# Weekly quartet. Just a music lover perspective.



## Vicente

I love string music and just following another forum friend example am going to dedicate every day of the week time enough to listen quietly a string quartet. I will google for info about the particular opus and post any important info that I found, specially performers interview and so on..

Anyone wanting to join is welcome, just maintaining the perspective stated in the post title. You will probably will find here emotions, personal points of view and so on. If you are a professional, you'll probably will not find the info useful, the only purpose of this entertainment is to increase music enjoyment by knowing a little better the music to listen.

In this thread you will find the activity coordination info. Anyone wanting to participate just post an answer. Quartet selection will be made in order of "appearance".

For the first week, beginning on February, 24 I'll select the first quartet: Beethoven, String Quartet 14, opus 131. Will open the thread tomorrow Sunday.

Enjoy.
Vicente Vida

*Talk Classical String Quartet Thread*
(quartet of the week in large font)

Abrahamsen - String Quartet No. 4
Alwyn - String Quartet No. 3
Arensky - String Quartet No. 1
Arensky - String Quartet No. 2 in A Minor, Op. 35/35a
Arnold - String Quartet No. 2
Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
Bacewicz - String Quartet No 4
Bach - Art of Fugue
Barber - String Quartet
Bartók - String Quartet No. 3
Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
Bartók - String Quartet No. 5
Bax - String Quartet No. 1
Beach - Quartet for Strings in One Movement, Op. 89
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 1
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 7 "Razumovsky 1"
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 11
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 13
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16
Berg - Lyric Suite
Birtwistle - The Tree of Strings
Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
Brahms - String Quartet No. 2
Bretón - String Quartet No. 3
Bridge - String Quartet No. 2
Britten - String Quartet No. 1
Britten - String Quartet No. 2
Britten - String Quartet No. 3
Bruch - String Quartet No.2
Cage - String Quartet in Four Parts
Carter - String Quartet no 1
Carter - String Quartet No. 3
Cerha - String Quartet No. 2
Cherubini - String Quartet No. 1
Chin, U. - ParaMetaString
Coates, G. - String Quartet No. 9
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
Crumb - Black Angels
Czerny - String Quartet in D Minor
Davies, Peter Maxwell - Naxos String Quartet No. 3
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
Dohnányi - String Quartet No. 2
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 5
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime"
Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 12 "American"
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 13
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14
van Eechaute - String Quartet No. 1 "à la mémoire de Maurice Ravel"
Elgar - String Quartet in E Minor
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
Ferneyhough - String Quartet No. 6
Franck - String Quartet in D Major
Frank - Quijotidas
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
Gernsheim - String Quartet No. 3 in F Major, Op. 51
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
Glazunov - String Quartet No. 5 in d minor, Op. 70
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
Gubaidulina - String Quartet No. 1
Harvey - String Quartet No.4 with Live Electronics
Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3
Haydn - String Quartet in F Minor, Op. 20/5
Haydn - String Quartet in C major, Op. 33/3 "Bird"/"Vogel"
Haydn - String Quartet in F sharp minor, Op. 50/4
Haydn - String Quartet Op.76, #2 "Fifths"
Hillborg - Kongsgaard Variations
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 15
Honegger - String Quartet No. 3
Ives - String Quartet No. 2
Janacek - String Quartet No. 1 'Kreutzer Sonata'
Janacek - String Quartet No. 2 'Intimate Letters'
Johnston - String Quartet No. 4 "Amazing Grace"
Kagel - String Quartet No.2
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
Kokkonen - String Quartet No. 3
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
Lachenmann - Gran Torso
Lachenmann - Reigen seliger Geister (Round Dance of the Blessed Spirits)
Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
Lavista - String Quartet No. 4 "Sinfonías"
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 1 “Métamorphoses nocturnes”
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
Lutosławski - String Quartet
Malipiero - String Quartet No. 1 "Rispetti e strambotti"
Martinů - String Quartet No. 7 "Concerto da camera"
Mathias - String Quartet No. 1
Fanny Mendelssohn - String Quartet in E Flat Major
Felix Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
Felix Mendelssohn - String Quartet op. 13 in a minor
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
Mosolov - String Quartet No. 1
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance"
Mozart - String Quartet No. 20 in D major K. 499 "Hoffmeister"
Mozart - String Quartet No. 22 in Bb K. 589
Myaskovsky - String Quartet No. 13 in A minor, Op. 86
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
Penderecki - String Quartet No. 3 "Leaves of an Unwritten Diary"
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
Reger - String Quartet No. 1
Reger - String Quartet No. 4
Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
Rubbra - String Quartet No. 3
Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 3
Schönberg - String Quartet No. 2 in F-sharp minor, Op. 10
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4
Schubert - String Quartet No 4 D46
Schubert - String Quartet No. 13 "Rosamunde"
Schubert - String Quartet No. 14 in D Minor "Death and the Maiden"
Schubert - String Quartet No. 15
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
Schumann - String Quartet No. 3 in A Major, Op. 41/3
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 2
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 3
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 5
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
Silvestrov - String Quartet No. 1
Simpson - String Quartet No. 1
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
Taneyev - String Quartet No. 2 in C major, Op. 5
Tchaikovsky - String Quartet No. 1
Thorvaldsdottir - Enigma
Tippett - String Quartet No. 2
Tower - In Memory
Valen - String Quartet No. 2
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
Vaughan Williams - String Quartet No. 2 in A minor
Verdi - String Quartet in E Minor
Villa Lobos - String Quartet No. 14
Walton - String Quartet No.2 in A-minor
Webern - Fünf Sätze für Streichquartett, Op. 5 ("Five Movements")
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
Wolf - String Quartet in D minor
Wollschleger - String Quartet #2 "White Wall"
Xenakis - Tetras
Zemlinsky - String Quartet No. 4

Also of interest:
Merl's Blogged String Quartet reviews


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## flamencosketches

I would like to participate! I have a question though, are we to listen to the same quartet once per day every day for one week, ie. a total of seven listens? Or do we only listen the once, on Sunday?


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## Mandryka

Or take a different quartet by the same composer each day. I’m doing that at the moment with the quartets which Ben Johnston wrote - he may be a good composer for this group.


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## Vicente

Hi
This activity idea is to deepen in the knowledge of a particular opus during a whole week.

My personal experience is that when I listen a composition several times, my enjoyment experience grows. During every listening experience I take into account new details, begin to “learn” melodies or themes, how they repeat during the opus development, what effect do they produce in my emotions. That sort of things.

We can listen two or three different versions of the same composition and look for the different approach, what’s your perspective of the different interpretations. 

Those sorts of things cannot be attained the first time you listen, that’s why I proposed the activity.

Regards
Vicente Vida


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## Selby

This is so exciting. I’m going to join. An inspired first selection. I think I will be listening to the Takacs Quartet recording.


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## Vicente

Selby said:


> This is so exciting. I'm going to join. An inspired first selection. I think I will be listening to the Takacs Quartet recording.


I was "inspired" by your thread.

Feel free to share your thaughts in:

Beethoven String Quartet 14. Just a Music Lover Perspective

Intend to keep this thread to coordinate the activity or receive activity change proposals.

Enjoy
Vicente Vida


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## Oldhoosierdude

Vicente said:


> I was "inspired" by your thread.
> 
> Feel free to share your thaughts in:
> 
> Beethoven String Quartet 14. Just a Music Lover Perspective
> 
> Intend to keep this thread to coordinate the activity or receive activity change proposals.
> 
> Enjoy
> Vicente Vida


Possibly this idea can expand to threads on Violin Concerto and Cello Concerto, etc. Lot of work, though.


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## Mandryka

The last time I thought about op 131 I thought this seminar had some useful ideas

https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/86413/249276/0/0


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## Vicente

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Possibly this idea can expand to threads on Violin Concerto and Cello Concerto, etc. Lot of work, though.


Yes, a lot of work. Let's see if the quartets idea has a good reception before planning to expand.


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## Vicente

Mandryka said:


> The last time I thought about op 131 I thought this seminar had some useful ideas
> 
> https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/86413/249276/0/0


Thanks a lot, I'll move the seminar reference to the op 131 dedicated thread.


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## Vicente

Up to know people interested in the String Quartet activity are as in the following list:

- Vicente 
- flamencosketches
- Selby

flamencosteches, if you would like, select an string quartet to be listened in week 02/08 March, so everybody interested can look for recordings and/or information.

Thanks a lot
Vicente Vida


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## Selby

^I'm still interested and have been listening to op.131.


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## Selby

Has next weeks selection been decided?


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## Enthusiast

Belatedly, I am in for this.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Like the piano sonata thread, I love the idea, and will definitely add my thoughts weekly. I just don't have the desire/commitment to listen to it every day of the week.


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## D Smith

^^ What ACB said  My listening time is precious and I try and get as much variety during the week as possible. I did listen to Quartteto Italiano do op.131 earlier this week (once) and it only reaffirmed my opinion as it being one of the greatest quartets ever. I love the dark fugue, variations and then the scherzo which never fails to delight me.


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## flamencosketches

If next week's quartet has not been chosen yet I would like to nominate one: String Quartet No.3 by Benjamin Britten. I haven't heard it yet and this will give me an excuse to explore it in-depth. Of course, let's pick something we agree on.

Anyway I'm about to listen to op.131 for the third and likely final time this week.


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## flamencosketches

flamencosketches said:


> If next week's quartet has not been chosen yet I would like to nominate one: String Quartet No.3 by Benjamin Britten. I haven't heard it yet and this will give me an excuse to explore it in-depth. Of course, let's pick something we agree on.
> 
> Anyway I'm about to listen to op.131 for the third and likely final time this week.


Two others I would be really happy with: Robert Schumann's String Quartet No.3 in A major, op.41 no.3; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's String Quartet No.19 in C major, K465, the "Dissonance" quartet. Does anyone have any thoughts on dedicating a week to any of these works? Any other suggestions?


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## Josquin13

Could you put me on the list, too? I'd like to participate (hopefully, I'll have the time). You seem to be following my suggestion on Selby's piano sonata thread, that each person on the list gets their turn to pick a different string quartet each week. I like that format, and have found from past experience that it works well--so long as people stay aware of when it's their turn to pick. (A weekly reminder isn't a bad idea-- "so & so, you're up next week...") It also helps to keep an ongoing list of people's choices that is updated & posted weekly, not only to serve as reference for the group, but also to help people see when their turn is coming back up again. 

I should add that, in my opinion, we shouldn't have to justify our choices or make sure that they're accepted by the whole group beforehand, but rather feel free to pick whatever SQ interests us. In other words, not everyone is going to like everything that we listen to each week, & that's a good thing! Otherwise, the choices of repertory might become too uniform and familiar, & what's the fun in that? Plus, I expect it will become unnecessarily time consuming (& possibly a drag) for each of us to make sure that our choices are accepted by the whole group every week. We just have to accept that some listeners will inevitably say "I didn't like that SQ", and it shouldn't be taken personally, but is be expected. Of course, at the same time, you have to hope that people will do their best to pick a SQ that strongly interests them, and that they believe will interest others.

Then, once the thread is established, at some point in the future, if the SQ repertory becomes largely exhausted, we could easily switch over to piano trios, or violin sonatas, or quintets, etc.

How does that sound? Though of course it's your thread, you certainly don't have to listen to me.

flamencosketches--If you don't pick Mozart's "Dissonance" Quartet, don't worry, I'm sure I'll choose it at some point, since it's one of my top five favorite SQs. But feel free, it's a great choice.


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## Selby

flamencosketches said:


> Two others I would be really happy with: Robert Schumann's String Quartet No.3 in A major, op.41 no.3; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's String Quartet No.19 in C major, K465, the "Dissonance" quartet. Does anyone have any thoughts on dedicating a week to any of these works? Any other suggestions?


Of your choices my vote would be for Schumann


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## Mandryka

Be careful of something if you choose the Schumann. Schumann revised and pruned back all of his op 41 set after Mendelssohn gave him feedback. The abridged revised versions are the ones which have been most often recorded. As far as I know, only The Leipzig Quartet have recorded the originals - it’s quite a revelation. You will need to be sure that you’re all talking about the same thing if there are any discussions.

I’d be very keen to know if anyone else has recorded the first versions.


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## Eramire156

You can count me in, I've been listening to quartets a lot recently, what this weeks quartet?


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## Allegro Con Brio

The OP seems to have disappeared, but he did give this week’s choice to Flamencosketches, who indicated that his top choice would be Britten’s No. 3. There also seems to be some enthusiasm for Schumann. Shall we roll with either of those? If no one else will, I will gladly volunteer to step in for Vicente and “run” this thread. I’ve also been in a quartet phase lately.


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## Eramire156

Thanks for stepping in, I vote Britten.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Since Britten was Flamenco's first pick, let's go with it. After all, this is supposed to be an activity to open our ears up and expand our musical minds. I'll chime in with my initial thoughts tomorrow after I listen to the Amadeus Quartet recording (the quartet that the work was originally written for). I am not very acquainted with Britten's music, and I haven't been a fan of what I've heard; but I'm excited about the possibilities! (though I can't say I'll be listening to the whole thing daily, I will definitely return to it frequently throughout the week).

So, just to keep track:

*Week of 02/22: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14* (Vicente)
*Week of 03/02: Britten - String Quartet No. 3* (flamencosketches)

I'm not sure what the process will be for choosing the "choosers" of each week's work. Also, I think we should just keep all the weekly thoughts in this same thread for the sake of continuity, unless people prefer separate threads for each week's quartet.


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## flamencosketches

I say we keep it all in this thread. Thanks for taking over, ACB. Britten 3 it is! I'll give it a listen later on today and write back with my thoughts.

I nominate you, Allegro Con Brio, to pick the next work. Perhaps whoever choses the work also nominates the elector for the next week...?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Flamenco, I think that works as a method for nominations. That is, if we get enough participants in this activity (which I'd like to extend for as long as possible); otherwise the list of those willing to make choices will soon dwindle Thanks for offering me the nomination, I will decide by tomorrow.

Benjamin Britten's 3rd Quartet is layed out in five movements, each with somewhat unusual descriptive titles:
*I. Duets
II. Ostinato
III. Solo
IV. Burlesque
V. Recitative and Passacaglia*

Here is an interesting Wikipedia article that features a brief analysis, and some interesting quotes from critics.

After a cursory listen to a live recording from the Amadeus Quartet, I can give some initial thoughts. Holy smokes. This is _very_ dense, opaque music. I had no idea that Britten was so radical. This was his last published composition before his death in 1976, and this is a very contemporary piece of music. My mind drew initial comparisons to Berg's Lyric Suite and the quartets of Bartok, but there is no doubt that despite the very contemporary feeling here, Britten is using a very distinct and personal compositional voice. To my ears, this is atonal, but I have not seen any indication that it technically is. I do not have any strong feelings about the music yet except that it is very different from what I typically enjoy. It seems to wander around in its own sense of stasis, not really reaching any destinations, reveling in the wondrous sounds and bizarre colors and ideas that Britten draws from the quartet. If nothing else, this definitely stretches what four string instruments can do to the breaking point. I will be listening again tomorrow, after I refresh my mind with some more familiar-sounding music


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## Bwv 1080

What does it matter if we ‘sign up’, rather than just post in the threads


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## Allegro Con Brio

Bwv 1080 said:


> What does it matter if we 'sign up', rather than just post in the threads


There's no need to formally "sign up." Just participate if you're up for it! However, unless you indicate so, I will consider you a candidate for a future quartet nomination if you participate in this thread. For example, if you post your thoughts on the Britten this week, I could nominate you to choose a work down the road.


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## flamencosketches

First impression of the Britten 3:

Wow, I love what I'm hearing. It's an explosion of color in motion. I hear a motif of a major 7th that has been present in all movements. The sonorities he gets out of these strings, especially in the way they contrast between movements, ie. the sharpness of the second movement and the quietude of the third, are amazing. I knew I would like it, because I liked the first two string quartets a lot, but I think this might be his best yet. I don't find it terribly spiky and I wouldn't call it atonal by any means, there is much emphasis on common practice harmony. I found it very lyrical and shimmering, and actually quite inviting. There are some crunchy chords and harmonic implications here and there, but nothing like what you encounter in Berg or Bartók. Hearing this makes me wonder why Britten is not better known for his string quartets.

I'll be spending my time with the Maggini Quartet recording on Naxos:










There are others out there that are supposed to be very good, including the Amadeus Quartet, which Allegro Con Brio mentioned; the Britten Quartet, who I imagine have some sort of idea about how this music should be played, on Brilliant Classics; and the Emperor Quartet, on BIS. For the streamers in our ranks, it might be rewarding to explore multiple interpretations.

Anyway, I'll be listening again tomorrow, maybe take a day off, then again over the weekend. I would love to get my hands on a score to pore over while listening, but I don't think it's on IMSLP on account of Britten having died in the last half century.

Ah, that passacaglia finale is just gorgeous.


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## Bwv 1080

Have not heard this piece before and listening to the Brodsky recording

First impression is structure and language reminds me of Britten's solo guitar piece Nocturnal, which was written a few years earlier. While this lacks the 'anchor' of the Dowland tune used in Nocturnal it likewise has an several episodic movements followed by a passacaglia.


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## Bwv 1080

Here is a youtube w/ the score. The recording is the Maggini Quartet


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> Here is a youtube w/ the score. The recording is the Maggini Quartet


Wow, this is great. Thanks!


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## Allegro Con Brio

After hearing it for a second time today, I can gladly report I've made a bit of progress. First of all, I can say with confidence that I prefer the Endellion Quartet recording quite a bit to the live Amadeus I heard yesterday. It was a bit less on-the-nose, more subtle, more lyrical, which I appreciate in this kind of music. This time around I tried my preferred technique for listening to modern music: imagining a vast canvas upon which the composer splashes a variety of colors, shapes, and textures. This helped me understand what Britten was getting at, and helped me appreciate the rare moments of tonal purity in the music. This work is about exploring the relationships and musical potentials of the four instruments, as evidenced by the first movement "Duets" which demonstrates every possible combination of timbres and colors between the instrument pairs. That said, it is also the hardest movement to understand for me. By far my favorite movement is the finale, which, after a very dissonant opening recitative, plunges into a passacaglia in which the ground bass is passed off between the instruments in a series of interesting variations. The final bars, which gradually fade away into silence, are very effective. I confess that "beautiful" is not the first adjective I think of when I hear music like this, and I freely admit that I have a very tough time enjoying it. But using this listening technique, I was able to hear wildly imaginative ideas and colors that got me thinking. And yes, I encountered moments of beauty as well.

Having graciously accepted the nomination from Flamencosketches, I am announcing that next week's quartet will be *Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 in C Minor*. Brahms's quartets are a very overlooked part of his ouevre, and though I am a dedicated Brahmsian, I have yet to really love them. I think this will make for a great study!


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> After hearing it for a second time today, I can gladly report I've made a bit of progress. First of all, I can say with confidence that I prefer the Endellion Quartet recording quite a bit to the live Amadeus I heard yesterday. It was a bit less on-the-nose, more subtle, more lyrical, which I appreciate in this kind of music. This time around I tried my preferred technique for listening to modern music: imagining a vast canvas upon which the composer splashes a variety of colors, shapes, and textures. This helped me understand what Britten was getting at, and helped me appreciate the rare moments of tonal purity in the music. This work is about exploring the relationships and musical potentials of the four instruments, as evidenced by the first movement "Duets" which demonstrates every possible combination of timbres and colors between the instrument pairs. That said, it is also the hardest movement to understand for me. By far my favorite movement is the finale, which, after a very dissonant opening recitative, plunges into a passacaglia in which the ground bass is passed off between the instruments in a series of interesting variations. The final bars, which gradually fade away into silence, are very effective. I confess that "beautiful" is not the first adjective I think of when I hear music like this, and I freely admit that I have a very tough time enjoying it. But using this listening technique, I was able to hear wildly imaginative ideas and colors that got me thinking. And yes, I encountered moments of beauty as well.
> 
> Having graciously accepted the nomination from Flamencosketches, I am announcing that next week's quartet will be *Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 in C Minor*. Brahms's quartets are a very overlooked part of his ouevre, and though I am a dedicated Brahmsian, I have yet to really love them. I think this will make for a great study!


Glad to hear you got more out of it this time. I would agree with you that the opening movement is the most challenging. It actually almost reminds me of the Prima Parte from Bartók's String Quartet No.3. I have just started my second listen and perhaps I will add more thoughts in an edit once I have finished.

Anyway I will probably listen to the Britten once (possibly twice) more over the weekend, and then beginning on Sunday we will move onto the Brahms. Very much looking forward to that as I have yet to spend time with the Brahms SQs much. I have the Alban Berg Quartett recording, and since I'm considering a purchase of the Amadeus Quartet set (with all quartets, quintets and sextets) I will try and find that to stream as well. Good choice!


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## Eramire156

At first I found the austere first mvt. hard going but by the second listen I could get my head around it. I have so far listened to four recordings.

Maggini 
Alberni String Quartet
Endellion
Brodsky

I will listen a couple more times before Sunday and post my comments , then shift to Brahms.


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## flamencosketches

Eramire156 said:


> At first I found the austere first mvt. hard going but by the second listen I could get my head around it. I have so far listened to four recordings.
> 
> Maggini
> Alberni String Quartet
> Endellion
> Brodsky
> 
> I will listen a couple more times before Sunday and post my comments , then shift to Brahms.


Did you find any one recording to stand out above the others? It turns out a lot of ensembles have recorded the Britten quartets, more than I realized.


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## Eramire156

So far the Endellion holds pride of place, not a bad recording post more notes when done, in the meantime I'll share this link

[video]https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/2013-video-archive/britten-quartet-no-3-for-strings-op-94/[/video]

for a live performance from the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center by Escher Quartet


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## Mandryka

For Britten 3 there's also The Emerson, The Fine Arts, The Amadeus, The Allegri, The Britten, The Sorrel, The Doric . . . .


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> For Britten 3 there's also The Emerson, The Fine Arts, The Amadeus, The Allegri, The Britten, The Sorrel, The Doric . . . .


Have you listened to any of these this week? If so I would love to hear your thoughts.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> For Britten 3 there's also The Emerson, The Fine Arts, The Amadeus, The Allegri, The Britten, The Sorrel, The Doric . . . .


.. the Takacs ...


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Have you listened to any of these this week? If so I would love to hear your thoughts.


Re the music, I like the first movement very much, though all of it is a pleasure to hear. Re performance, I haven't listened in a long time, but I remember enjoying Fine Arts.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> .. the Takacs ...


 I saw Takacs play it in concert, 20 years ago or more, I didn't know they'd made a recording. The concert performance was memorably good.


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## Josquin13

I should point out that the Endellion Quartet has recorded Britten's String Quartets twice--first in 1986 for EMI, and a second time in 2013 for Warner Classics (which may be 'live' recordings?). For completists, the first EMI cycle, which is the one that I own & like, includes the quartets that Britten composed in his late teens and early twenties, in addition to his mature quartets. So, it is truly a "complete" set of Britten's SQ output. To my knowledge, no other quartet has included these early works in their Britten cycles.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> I saw Takacs play it in concert, 20 years ago or more, I didn't know they'd made a recording. The concert performance was memorably good.


I bet they were good! Yes, their's is my probably favourite recording of Britten's quartets ... but I'm a real Takacs fan!


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## flamencosketches

Josquin13 said:


> I should point out that the Endellion Quartet has recorded Britten's String Quartets twice--first in 1986 for EMI, and a second time in 2013 for Warner Classics (which may be 'live' recordings?). For completists, the first EMI cycle, which is the one that I own & like, includes the quartets that Britten composed in his late teens and early twenties, in addition to his mature quartets. So, it is truly a "complete" set of Britten's SQ output. To my knowledge, no other quartet has included these early works in their Britten cycles.


If you are referring to the Quartettino, Alla marcia, 3 Divertimenti, and the Simple Symphony, then the Maggini Quartet also has included these in their cycle.


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## sbmonty

Listened to the Alberni yesterday and the Endellion currently. Thanks for suggesting this one. My first time listening to any Britten compositions.
This thread is a wonderful idea!


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## Iota

As it happens I was listening to this just recently with the Belcea, not bad, though I prefer Sorrel and, most of all, Maggini. 

Fwiw, as with much of Britten's music I find it intensely psychological, often ferreting away at undercurrents of feelings, often in a sparse musical setting that allows things to burn intensely without being supernovae. Spellbinding, desolate and containing Britten's uniquely imaginative thumbprints (the middle section of the Burlesque springs to mind). I find the Passacaglia a very affecting thing indeed.


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## Enthusiast

In the last three days I have listened to the work several times in a number of recordings. I like the Doric and the Brodsky but think the Maggini get closer to what I love in the work. But, as I have already said, I don't think anyone I have heard does it as well as the Takacs. It is a great (and I mean great) work, no doubt, shocking in part for its simplicity. It seems both very modern and quite traditional at the same time. But there is something I always find difficult with Britten's music when there are no voices or words involved: there is a sort of abstractness to it and I tend to feel until I know the work very well that there is something missing ... . I never feel this with the greatest of Britten's songs and song cycles or operas. 

So it is to be the first Brahms quartet next? Britten, of course, was famous for having a low opinion of Brahms so it seems a particularly apt choice!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Excellent thoughts, everybody! Great to see a good handful of people participating in this. Even though this week was shortened due to delay in finding a work to choose, I think we should switch to the new work every Sunday, and have the next week's nomination in by Thursday. So let's spend the rest of the day with our final thoughts on Britten, and then looking forward to hearing what we all think about Brahms tomorrow! Below is just a list for future reference as to who has participated in this thread so far and could be nominated to choose future quartets:

Enthusiast
Iota
sbmonty
Josquin13
Mandryka
Eramire156
Selby
BWV 1080


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## Eramire156

Eramire156 said:


> So far the Endellion holds pride of place, not a bad recording post more notes when done, in the meantime I'll share this link
> 
> [video]https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/2013-video-archive/britten-quartet-no-3-for-strings-op-94/[/video]
> 
> for a live performance from the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center by Escher Quartet


Watched the the above performance, by the Escher Quartet, seeing the performers interact I think I gained a greater appreciation of the piece.


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## Josquin13

flamencosketches said:


> If you are referring to the Quartettino, Alla marcia, 3 Divertimenti, and the Simple Symphony, then the Maggini Quartet also has included these in their cycle.


The contents of the Endellion Quartet's Britten cycle are more extensive than that, and as noted, I don't think any other quartet has recorded all of the following early Britten works together in a complete cycle:

Rhapsody for string quartet (1929)
Quartettino (1930)
Elegy for unaccompanied viola (1930)
String Quartet in D major (1931)
Phantasy in F minor for string quintet (1932)
Phantasy Quartet for oboe and string trio, Op. 2 (1932)
Alla Marcia for string quartet (1933)
Three Divertimenti for string quartet (1936)

String Quartet No. 1 in F major, Op. 25
String Quartet No. 2, Op. 36
String Quartet No. 3, Op. 94

Here's a YT link to all of the above Endellion performances: 




While the Maggini String Quartet Britten cycle is comprised of 2 CDs that include the following works, as you've pointed out:

Simply Symphony (the chamber version, which is rarely heard & not a part of the Endellion Quartet's survey)
Quartettino (1930)
Alla Marcia (1933)
Three Divertimenti for string quartet (1936)
& the three mature String Quartets

So, for completists as well as Britten aficionados, the choice is fairly clear, unless you find the Maggini Quartet's performances considerably better than those by the Endellion Quartet, or you specifically want to have the chamber version of Britten's Simply Symphony in your collection. I can't offer an opinion here, since I've not heard the Maggini recordings.

In regards to Britten's 1975 String Quartet No. 3, thanks for suggesting the quartet--it's a sparse masterwork. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the connection of the last movement to the City of Venice and death--since the movement is entitled "La Serenissima" ("the most serene")--which is a centuries old nickname for the Venetian Republic, & Britten knew that he was dying when he composed the final movement in a hotel room in Venice. Indeed, there are no less than five musical quotations in this movement from Britten's final 1973 opera, "Death in Venice", which is based on the Thomas Mann novella of the same name. I also find myself wondering whether Britten might have been inspired by the 1971 film by Luchino Visconti, "Death in Venice", both for his final 1973 opera and the final movement of this quartet. It seems most likely, considering (both the popularity of the film at the time and the underlying theme of a dying homosexual man and) that the parallel here between an old composer (or writer in the novella) caught within a lonely internal dialogue and dying contemplation of the conflicting, opposing ideal of a visible Apollonian beauty, on the one hand, and the grotesqueness of a Dionysian world around him, on the other, appear to be laid out in the program of Britten's quartet. (Of course, this is essentially what Mann's novella is about.)

For example, the "very fast" "Ostinato" second movement and the fourth "Burlesque" movement appear to evoke an ugly Dionysian world. While there is indeed a state of calm meditation and serenity in the third solo violin movement, albeit with some lingering or distant hints of the grotesque. All of which ultimately yields to a sense of beauty, resignation, and sadness in the final, slow Passacaglia; albeit one that is perhaps tinged with doubt and uncertainty, at least in the initial part of the movement, where we hear the five motifs from Britten's final opera. I expect that Britten was confronting his own imminent death in his hotel room in Venice, through the completion of this late work: where interestingly, I've read that he could hear the sound of chiming Venetian bells while he composed the end of the quartet, and we too can hear them in the seemingly distant underlying bottom musical line (or continuo line) of the movement, which is evocative of a steady, slow death knell.

After Britten returned from Venice, two of his pupils, the composers David and Colin Matthews were the first to play the work for him in a piano duet version. However, Britten didn't live to hear the Amadeus Quartet premiere the work in December of 1976, as the recital was given just two weeks after the composer's death. (If memory serves, the Amadeus Quartet had commissioned the quartet.)

In Brian Hogwood's "Listening to Britten - String Quartet no. 3, Op. 94, David Matthews is quoted as saying, "The two earlier quartets had been among his finest instrumental works; the Third is their equal in invention, and in range and depth of expression their superior."


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## flamencosketches

^Very insightful thoughts, Josquin. I appreciate your analysis. Not having seen (or read) _Death in Venice_, neither Britten's opera nor the film, I certainly could not have picked up on any of that, but you've piqued my interest.

I'm about to listen once more. I'll see if I can stream the Endellion anywhere.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin, I very much agree with your interpretation. It really does seem like Britten is carrying on the great tradition of using the string quartet as the most painfully personal medium for artistic and even metaphysical expression in the same way that Beethoven, Shostakovich, etc. mastered it. It seems like the farewell song of a tormented life, with the final notes fading away into oblivion. But yet, I'm inclined to believe that it's not only a spirit of grief and nihilism, just like how the _Heiliger Dankgesang_ of Beethoven's 15th Quartet and the finale of Mahler 9 express something so much more than any of our interpretations could ever convey. Music from the last days of a composer's life has always held a morbid fascination for me, even though it's important not to stress the connection too much.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> ^Very insightful thoughts, Josquin. I appreciate your analysis. Not having seen (or read) _Death in Venice_, neither Britten's opera nor the film, I certainly could not have picked up on any of that, but you've piqued my interest.
> 
> I'm about to listen once more. I'll see if I can stream the Endellion anywhere.


The film certainly is very good. I can't remember much about the novella and I recall not enjoying the opera much.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> . Music from the last days of a composer's life has always held a morbid fascination for me, even though it's important not to stress the connection too much.


Then you need to hear Feldman's Piano Violin Viola ans Cello.

The last offerings of performers who knew they were about to die is also interesting to explore, for example the Schubert D960 and WTC 2 of Dina Ugorskaja.


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## Eramire156

Josquin13 said:


> The contents of the Endellion Quartet's Britten cycle are more extensive than that, and as noted, I don't think any other quartet has recorded all of the following early Britten works together in a complete cycle:
> 
> Rhapsody for string quartet (1929)
> Quartettino (1930)
> Elegy for unaccompanied viola (1930)
> String Quartet in D major (1931)
> Phantasy in F minor for string quintet (1932)
> Phantasy Quartet for oboe and string trio, Op. 2 (1932)
> Alla Marcia for string quartet (1933)
> Three Divertimenti for string quartet (1936)
> 
> String Quartet No. 1 in F major, Op. 25
> String Quartet No. 2, Op. 36
> String Quartet No. 3, Op. 94
> 
> Here's a YT link to all of the above Endellion performances:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While the Maggini String Quartet Britten cycle is comprised of 2 CDs that include the following works, as you've pointed out:
> 
> Simply Symphony (the chamber version, which is rarely heard & not a part of the Endellion Quartet's survey)
> Quartettino (1930)
> Alla Marcia (1933)
> Three Divertimenti for string quartet (1936)
> & the three mature String Quartets
> 
> So, for completists as well as Britten aficionados, the choice is fairly clear, unless you find the Maggini Quartet's performances considerably better than those by the Endellion Quartet, or you specifically want to have the chamber version of Britten's Simply Symphony in your collection. I can't offer an opinion here, since I've not heard the Maggini recordings.
> 
> In regards to Britten's 1975 String Quartet No. 3, thanks for suggesting the quartet--it's a sparse masterwork. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the connection of the last movement to the City of Venice and death--since the movement is entitled "La Serenissima" ("the most serene")--which is a centuries old nickname for the Venetian Republic, & Britten knew that he was dying when he composed the final movement in a hotel room in Venice. Indeed, there are no less than five musical quotations in this movement from Britten's final 1973 opera, "Death in Venice", which is based on the Thomas Mann novella of the same name. I also find myself wondering whether Britten might have been inspired by the 1971 film by Luchino Visconti, "Death in Venice", both for his final 1973 opera and the final movement of this quartet. It seems most likely, considering (both the popularity of the film at the time and the underlying theme of a dying homosexual man and) that the parallel here between an old composer (or writer in the novella) caught within a lonely internal dialogue and dying contemplation of the conflicting, opposing ideal of a visible Apollonian beauty, on the one hand, and the grotesqueness of a Dionysian world around him, on the other, appear to be laid out in the program of Britten's quartet. (Of course, this is essentially what Mann's novella is about.)
> 
> For example, the "very fast" "Ostinato" second movement and the fourth "Burlesque" movement appear to evoke an ugly Dionysian world. While there is indeed a state of calm meditation and serenity in the third solo violin movement, albeit with some lingering or distant hints of the grotesque. All of which ultimately yields to a sense of beauty, resignation, and sadness in the final, slow Passacaglia; albeit one that is perhaps tinged with doubt and uncertainty, at least in the initial part of the movement, where we hear the five motifs from Britten's final opera. I expect that Britten was confronting his own imminent death in his hotel room in Venice, through the completion of this late work: where interestingly, I've read that he could hear the sound of chiming Venetian bells while he composed the end of the quartet, and we too can hear them in the seemingly distant underlying bottom musical line (or continuo line) of the movement, which is evocative of a steady, slow death knell.
> 
> After Britten returned from Venice, two of his pupils, the composers David and Colin Matthews were the first to play the work for him in a piano duet version. However, Britten didn't live to hear the Amadeus Quartet premiere the work in December of 1976, as the recital was given just two weeks after the composer's death. (If memory serves, the Amadeus Quartet had commissioned the quartet.)
> 
> In Brian Hogwood's "Listening to Britten - String Quartet no. 3, Op. 94, David Matthews is quoted as saying, "The two earlier quartets had been among his finest instrumental works; the Third is their equal in invention, and in range and depth of expression their superior."


Great notes Josquin13, Britten is reported to have said that the quartet ends on unanswered question. I too was thinking of Venice when listening to the quartet, the burlesque as sort of grotesque Carnival music and for me not only was he contemplating his own death, the greatest unanswered question, but the death of this magnificent city, which has been slowly sinking into the sea for hundreds of years.

Now Venice faces challenges that Britten had no idea the would face, global warming, over tourism, an aging population as young people leave and now the coronavirus. Are we watching the death of a city in real time or will it like the city's opera house La Fenice rise again.

The following YouTube video is of the Quartetto Dafne, performance in a empty La Fenice because of the Coronavirus, but I digress.


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## Allegro Con Brio

...and it's time now to move onto the Weekly Quartet for the week of *03/08-03/15*:

*Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 in C Minor*

The quartet is cast in a traditional four-movement form, but with one exception: the third movement, rather than a scherzo, is a uniquely Brahmsian "intermezzo", a favorite technique of his in his symphonies and chamber music. These movements are usually relatively straightforward and lyrical in ABA form.

*I. Allegro
II. Romanze - Poco Adagio
III. Allegretto molto moderato e comodo
IV. Allegro*

Some introductory notes: I assume that most of us are, at the very least, acquainted with the music of Brahms. I think most of us know too that the string quartet is not exactly a genre that we associate with him. Compared to other Romantic quartets, his three are shockingly under-performed and recorded. Many seem to think that they constitute some of his least accessible works - overly austere and serious without that contrasting florid lyricism that delineates his greatest music (with the notable exception of the much later 3rd Quartet, which is one of his most lighthearted works). It is also paramount to note that, like the symphony which he toiled for 20 years to write, Brahms was haunted by the spectre of Beethoven, who was considered the untouchable god of the quartet. He claimed to have destroyed up to 20 previous attempts at writing one. When he finally did publish one, he did so in a pair as his Op. 51 alongside one other quartet in A minor. Here is the (somewhat disappointing) Wikipedia article for this opus, but we would be amiss without linking to the greatest source for the music of Brahms on the Internet - Kelly Dean Hansen's extremely in-depth analysis and listening guide. Those who have the time/inclination may want to consider following along with this guide during one of their weekly listens! (I certainly will be.) He claims that the Op.51/1 quartet may be the most intricate and complex work that Brahms ever wrote. Regardless of the stereotypes, I trust we will all be listening with an open mind! I will post my initial thoughts within the next day, and will be comparing several recordings this week, beginning with the 2007 recording of the Emerson Quartet.


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## flamencosketches

Listening now to the Alban Berg Quartett recording on Teldec. This is not my first time with this work, I've heard it a couple of times. I enjoy this quartet quite a bit. I like the "perpetuum mobile" feel of the first movement. Personally, I don't think it's fair to say that



Allegro Con Brio said:


> they constitute some of his least accessible works - overly austere and serious without that contrasting florid lyricism that delineates his greatest music


... though this is hardly the first time I've heard such sentiment. I was taken aback when I first heard this work on account of how accessible and enjoyable I thought it was, considering the bad rap that Brahms' quartets tend to get. I wasn't as much of a Brahms fan at that time and I found it more enjoyable than other, more well-liked chamber music of his that had then failed to hook me: the string sextets, the piano quartets & trios, etc... I think what I like is the sense of rhythmic drive that it has to it. Having said all that, I do not (yet) think that it is up to par with the best of Beethoven's quartets. But we'll see if my opinion changes on that.

Anyway, I'll be looking forward to exploring this Brahms quartet this week. Thanks ACB for the link to that listening guide, I will have to check it out. The wikipedia link that you shared for whatever reason did not work for me, so if anyone else encounters the same problem, maybe try this one...?...:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op._51_(Brahms)

Currently listening to the slow movement. It's given a very lyrical and affecting performance from the ABQ.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Thanks for the real link...no idea why the original one doesn't work. I'll definitely add the Alban Berg to my list of recordings to hear this week. I appreciate their lyrical warmth in works that may not immediately appear such.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Thanks for the real link...no idea why the original one doesn't work. I'll definitely add the Alban Berg to my list of recordings to hear this week. I appreciate their lyrical warmth in works that may not immediately appear such.


What did you think of the Emerson recording?


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> What did you think of the Emerson recording?


I didn't listen all the way through today, but the outer movements were certainly very assertive, even aggressive rhythmically. I generally haven't enjoyed many of the Emersons' recordings, I find them too harsh and strident. I really wasn't liking too much of what I was hearing, so I think I'll switch to the Alban Berg tomorrow.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I didn't listen all the way through today, but the outer movements were certainly very assertive, even aggressive rhythmically. I generally haven't enjoyed many of the Emersons' recordings, I find them too harsh and strident. I really wasn't liking too much of what I was hearing, so I think I'll switch to the Alban Berg tomorrow.


I think the ABQ will open up the door for you in this quartet. When I listened yesterday my impression was that it's really quite accessible music. One thing I'll say is that the Intermezzo movement is kind of challenging. It's very slow and long, and I don't quite understand what Brahms was trying to get off on me with it. Other than that I was impressed with it all. The finale is short and sweet, hard-hitting. You know, I wanted to check out that Emerson recording but you may just have talked me out of it.


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## Mandryka

When I listen to the first three movements, the pleasure comes from having my expectations confirmed right on cue. I mean harmonic and rhythmic and melodic expectations. This is _agreeable_ music, in the sense of not presenting challenges and being comfortable.

Then there's the fourth movement. But that's quite another story.

(Interesting to think about final movements in music of this period . . . the Chopin sonatas . . .)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Some patchy thoughts upon listening to the ABQ:

This is music that, in typical Brahmsian fashion, is very tough to describe with one word. Austere, searching, passionate, sentimental, enigmatic...what exactly _is_ this music? The first movement is cast in quite a compact sonata form, and it seems like Brahms is making sure that no note is unnecessary. He writes very rich textures and interplays between the instruments but still devises fairly accessible themes. For me it seems like the first movement is bristling with energy that wants to explode into a climax but never really does in the short development. The _Romanze_ is good old-fashioned lyrical, genial Brahms; albeit in a somewhat hesitant and restrained way. Again, it feels as if there is something unspoken here that needs to be released but isn't. The intermezzo movement is somewhat of a curiosity, it seems to go on for a while without much in particular to say, though I enjoyed the beautiful, lilting central waltz. The finale is where that savage energy beneath the surface seems to finally be released in all its glory - it's a short but wild ride that cements the inexorable tragedy of the work. Granted, it's not such a dark and diabolical tragedy as we would later see in the 4th Symphony, but there are definitely signs. I would not call this one of Brahms's greatest works, nor one of my favorites, but the consistently high standards of craftsmanship that he held himself to are clearly visible throughout; and I think that my future listens this week will reveal even more wonderful details. I don't think this quartet deserves the reputation it seems to have. And I much prefer the ABQ to the Emersons. Maybe the impression I got of the unreleased energy stems solely from this performance, but I thought they handled the contrasts and phrasings well. Perhaps I will try the Italiano (maybe my favorite quartet) tomorrow.


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## Mandryka

Well I listened to it again and decided that it’s not the sort of music that interests me at all, though it’s certainly not offensive. Connotations of hotel lobbies, Palm Court Orchestra. I’ve been listening to The Janacek Quartet play it - I went to see if Hagen and Lindsay did it, because I thought they may do something imaginative, but I couldn’t find a recording.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Well I listened to it again and decided that it's not the sort of music that interests me at all, though it's certainly not offensive. *Connotations of hotel lobbies, Palm Court Orchestra.* I've been listening to The Janacek Quartet play it - I went to see if Hagen and Lindsay did it, because I thought they may do something imaginative, but I couldn't find a recording.


Oh come on now. It may not be as adventurous as some of the more modern music you're spending more of your time listening to, but surely it's something beyond the "light classical" repertoire...? Be honest.

I did not listen yesterday, but I will try and listen after work today.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> Well I listened to it again and decided that it's not the sort of music that interests me at all, though it's certainly not offensive. Connotations of hotel lobbies, Palm Court Orchestra. I've been listening to The Janacek Quartet play it - I went to see if Hagen and Lindsay did it, because I thought they may do something imaginative, but I couldn't find a recording.


Mandryka; honest, curious question: do you like any Romantic music?


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## sbmonty

I've listened a few times now. I own two versions, Amadeus Quartet and Takács Quartet. Both are enjoyable, though the Amadeus recording sounds a bit thin. 
The opening movement was a little impenetrable to me initially, but after repeated listens, is starting to reveal itself. Very dense and somewhat agitated in style. The inner movements are lovely. I especially like the sighing motif that is repeated throughout the final three movements, in variations. It sounds very familiar. Perhaps from another Brahms work Or maybe Schumann?


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## Enthusiast

I went with the Amadeus today. It is a fine work but perhaps lacks that last degree of distinctiveness that the best Brahms has? I have a few recordings of it so let's see what I'm saying and thinking by the end.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Mandryka; honest, curious question: do you like any Romantic music?


I like this


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## Allegro Con Brio

This morning I heard the Quartetto Italiano (possibly my favorite quartet) play it. They were definitely the most cautious, restrained recording of the three I've heard so far. Generally slower tempi, clear balances, warm tones: all reasons why I've really enjoyed their Beethoven, Mozart, Ravel, Debussy recordings. Yet it seemed a tad underpowered in this music. Three listens now and I'm not really feeling the typical Brahmsian ecstasy that I typically do with his chamber works. Things just seem a bit too reined-in, and it seems like he isn't really pouring out his entire soul into the work. The third movement, in particular, I actually find quite annoying as it progresses. Anyway; there is lots of fantastic, intricate quartet writing here. The finale is the one movement I have yet to understand; sort of a breathless whirlwind without much real development. I liked Mandryka's comparison with the finales of Chopin's 2nd and 3rd Sonatas - brief movements that seem to serve more as a diabolical, bravura finish rather than a meticulously-crafted summary of the entire work (interesting that Brahms would take this direction after he wrote one of the greatest finales to date in his 1st Symphony). I will try and listen at least once more this week and see if I can glean that one extra level of enjoyment so I can truly appreciate this work.

Time to nominate who will choose next week's quartet. Having chosen this week, I nominate *Enthusiast* to pick our Weekly Quartet for 03/15-03/22.


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## Mandryka

This one is the one to try, much more emphasis on counterpoint than melody. That makes it a bit more interesting.


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## flamencosketches

I'm really surprised that people aren't liking this one. Going to listen again later and see if my opinion has changed for the worse. :lol:


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## Enthusiast

I listened to the Amadeus Quartet on Tuesday and the Alban Berg Quartet yesterday. Both were good and there was much to enjoy. Today I went for the Borodin Quartet's recording. This is the one I have had the longest and it still seems to be the one I enjoy the most. Or perhaps it is just my mood today. Anyway, it seems more alive and to have a greater sense of discovery to it. And, of course, it has real warmth.


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## flamencosketches

I had accidentally bid on the Melos Quartett Brahms and Schumann quartets 3CD, and won. So I'll be exploring that one when it comes...









... but it'll be a few days at least. For the rest of the week it will likely be the ABQ. Listening now. The first movement is a real tour de force, the second is songful and peaceful in its sad clarity, the fourth movement is electric. I feel like the work is growing on me a lot, to the point of becoming one of my favorites of Brahms' chamber works. It holds many secrets, I think. Somehow-perhaps the shared key has something to do with it-it reminds me of the first symphony. There is still one problem, and it appears Allegro Con Brio will agree with me at least on this point if nothing else...: the third movement. I just do not understand what Brahms was trying to tell us, there. It seems to go on and on and on without really going anywhere. It sticks out like a sore thumb from the incisive drama that is the rest of the quartet, and yet it is the longest movement. Trusting Brahms' skill and maturity as a composer by this point to know that he would not insert a bad movement into a great work, I will just concede that I don't understand it yet, and that it will probably take a lot more than one week (and more recordings) for me to understand this movement.

One additional note, the music does not seem to be wearing on me with repeated listens over a short timespan in a way that other Brahms works have a tendency to in my listening experience. If anything, I enjoy it more each time.

@Enthusiast, that Borodin recording looks great. It can actually be had cheaply in digital format on Amazon, so that's an option. Going to sample it later. By the way, do you accept Allegro Con Brio's nomination of you as the quartet-picker for next week? I'll be looking forward to exploring whichever one you choose.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> (interesting that Brahms would take this direction after he wrote one of the greatest finales to date in his 1st Symphony).


Just to nitpick a little here, but this quartet came before the first symphony, not after. Also, I would not characterize the finale of either the 2nd or 3rd of Chopin's piano sonatas as a "diabolical, bravura finish". They are so much more than that, even in as minuscule a package as the finale of the 2nd piano sonata. And I would argue the same for this quartet's finale.


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## Enthusiast

flamencosketches said:


> @Enthusiast, that Borodin recording looks great. It can actually be had cheaply in digital format on Amazon, so that's an option. Going to sample it later. *By the way, do you accept Allegro Con Brio's nomination of you as the quartet-picker for next week? I'll be looking forward to exploring whichever one you choose.*


I think I would choose Schubert's last quartet - #15, D887 - as I would like to get to know it better. Alternatives could be one of Martinu's (6th?) or the Debussy or something a little more modern like the 1st Ligeti (which has fairly instant appeal). Which way would others like to go?


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## flamencosketches

Enthusiast said:


> I think I would choose Schubert's last quartet - #15, D887 - as I would like to get to know it better. Alternatives could be one of Martinu's (6th?) or the Debussy or something a little more modern like the 1st Ligeti (which has fairly instant appeal). Which way would others like to go?


My vote would go to the Martinu, but it's ultimately your call. I too would like to explore the Schubert further but I only complain that it's probably the longest string quartet in my collection (unfortunately I don't have Morton Feldman's String Quartet No.2 in my library...!)-but if Schubert is the way you want to go, we can all gladly deal.


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## Enthusiast

^ OK but I'm not sure how many of us like 20th century music (although the Martinu is a relatively benign example of the period). Any other views out there?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> ^ OK but I'm not sure how many of us like 20th century music (although the Martinu is a relatively benign example of the period). Any other views out there?


My view is that the nominee should choose whatever they want regardless of outside opinion I think a big part of this exercise is communally listening to a work that many of us may not appreciate immediately, but which we can perhaps understand better through discussion and commentary. I would be good with all of those ideas. Despite the length of the Schubert, I still like it a lot (more than the famous "Death and the Maiden," actually) and would look forward to diving deep into it. It's all up to Enthusiast!



> Just to nitpick a little here, but this quartet came before the first symphony, not after. Also, I would not characterize the finale of either the 2nd or 3rd of Chopin's piano sonatas as a "diabolical, bravura finish". They are so much more than that, even in as minuscule a package as the finale of the 2nd piano sonata. And I would argue the same for this quartet's finale.


Thanks, Flamenco, for the correction - I suppose I should check my history before making such statements And I do think that the aforementioned finales are very effective, just very different from the idea of a finale as a weighty, involved journey to sum up the work.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I think I would choose Schubert's last quartet - #15, D887 - as I would like to get to know it better. Alternatives could be one of Martinu's (6th?) or the Debussy or something a little more modern like the 1st Ligeti (which has fairly instant appeal). Which way would others like to go?


Then I think you must specify whether you want people to listen with or without first movement repeats.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Then I think you must specify whether you want people to listen with or without first movement repeats.


I disagree. I think people should listen to multiple recordings, including those who might play it one way and those who might play it the other. That would only add value to the exercise.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I disagree. I think people should listen to multiple recordings, including those who might play it one way and those who might play it the other. That would only add value to the exercise.


Well I don't care, I just listened to the first movement and I decided I hate it. There's just nothing to it except a bunch of annoying earworm tunes being repeated over and over again. What's the point of that?!!!!!!!

The only good thing about it is Woody Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors.


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## Allegro Con Brio

If the Schubert remains Enthusiast’s preferred choice, he should not let others' opinions persuade him from going with it. Awaiting confirmation. I sincerely hope that this activity can help us all foster appreciation for a wide variety of styles and eras, and perhaps be a communal respite from the often-vitriolic aesthetic debates that tend to be pretty prolific on this forum right now. For me, things like this are what communities of music listeners are all about. I like to envision us all sitting in a room hearing the music, and then having a nice discussion afterwards about it means to us. Of course that doesn't mean we can't have negative criticism, but I do think we should expect respect and open-mindedness.


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## Enthusiast

Let's go with the Schubert - No. 15 in G major, D. 887. After all we are already discussing it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> Let's go with the Schubert - No. 15 in G major, D. 887. After all we are already discussing it!


Great! Really looking forward to this one. We'll switch over tomorrow after we get in our final listens/thoughts on Brahms. So far we've done:

02/23-03/01:* Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14* (Vicente)
03/01-03/08:* Britten - String Quartet No. 3* (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: *Brahms - String Quartet No. 1* (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: *Schubert - String Quartet No. 15* (Enthusiast)


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## flamencosketches

Final, very brief, thoughts on the Brahms: an interesting work with something lurking beneath the surface, especially in the last two movements, that I haven't quite figured out. It will take a lot more time living with it than a week, for sure, and I will try and periodically return to it throughout the rest of my life. But for now I need a break.

Beginning now with the Schubert. I have two recordings, I believe. The Chilingirian on Nimbus, and the Italiano on Philips. I will be beginning this odyssey with the Chilingirian recording, simply because it is so much shorter: 44 minutes versus the Italiano's 55. I take this to mean that the Chilingirians omit the first movement repeats...? But I am not familiar enough with the work to comment on that.

Listening now to the aforementioned Chilingirian, from this set:









Will write back with thoughts soon.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This week centers around the final quartet of Franz Schubert - his huge, forward-looking, and somewhat underappreciated 15th, published posthumously 25 years after his death. I've always seen this work as a spiritual brother to Schubert's other late, great masterpieces - the D959 Sonata, Winterreise, the String Quintet, the "Great" Symphony, the E Flat Mass. It is dramatically extended, marrying structure and beauty in fascinating harmony. But the only previous time I listened to this, my first impression was that this sounds like Schubert entering a new phase of his compositional life. This is already evident in the aforementioned work, but I think that this quartet, more than any other of his compositions, gives us the most tantalizing taste of what may have lied ahead for the man whose life was taken far, far too soon. There seems to be a real maturity of style and expression. It will be interesting to see how my and our perceptions will change throughout the week.

Right now I am getting more acquainted with the work through the Chilingirian recording (the same one Flamenco mentioned above) and plan to listen all the way through tomorrow. One recording that I think needs to be on everyone's radar is the *Busch Quartet* from 1938 - a great opportunity to hear performance practice from a different era applied to such a sprawling quartet. The Alban Berg and Juilliard are also high on my list to hear. Happy quartet-ing!

Note: For some weird reason Wikipedia links won't work when I try to link them, so if someone else wants to do so feel free. They do have a basic but nice little listening guide for this work. Anyway, just type the name of the work into your search engine and the Wiki entry will be the first thing that comes up.


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## Mandryka

The first movement is prescient of Bruckner. I bet Bruckner studied it.

I'm quite interested in the way some quartets make interesting harmonies by slightly adjusting their notes by microtones, and I think (but I'm not sure) that the Wihan quartet do that here on this rather successful performance. They take the repeats and it's listenable, no mean achievement









The Quartettsatz is also good - again another piece of music which normally leaves me cold, but Wihan make me listen.


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## flamencosketches

I won't go as far as Mandryka's earlier comment, that he hated it, but on first listen I found this work to be significantly more dense, opaque, and abstract than any of the quartets we have explored so far. It will take some time to get under the surface of this one. I'm going to try and listen at least once a day.

I wonder why Schubert stopped writing quartets after this. He lived for a full 2 years after finishing this work.

Wiki for anyone interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._15_(Schubert)


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> One recording that I think needs to be on everyone's radar is the *Busch Quartet* from 1938 - a great opportunity to hear performance practice from a different era applied to such a sprawling quartet. The Alban Berg and Juilliard are also high on my list to hear. Happy quartet-ing!


I do second the suggestion that the Busch Quartet needs to be heard. Their approach in general seems made for this quartet.

I listened to it yesterday (Italiano Quartet) and found it gorgeous - the word seems made for it! - but I do look forward to getting a deeper understanding of why and how ...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Alright...well...this is... a monster. After today's listen to the Juilliard Quartet, I can say that this is truly unlike anything else Schubert wrote. Yes, it shares the general language and ambitious scope of his other late great works, but here I don't necessarily hear the effortless, miraculous melodicism that marks his most inspired work. It is indeed fascinating to note that this was written 2 years before his death and those other famous works. Here it seems like he's aiming for grand, inexorable structures and swinging for the fences. Usually I find his frequent repetitions, wrenching emotional contrasts, and creative use of harmony within these large structures utterly hypnotizing. Here, though, it doesn't seem to make quite as much sense. There is a very pervadent quivering triplet/tremolo figure throughout the entire work, and I don't know what he was really going for with that. In fact, it started to get on my nerves with its constant repetition. The first movement is very impressive in its symphonic unfolding of themes, but I found the themes tough to follow because it lacked his signature soaring melodic lines. My attention wandered almost constantly, and I really had to focus in order to understand what was happening. The Andante I found more inviting with its heightened but nervous lyricism. It exemplifies a very unique type of slow movement that Schubert pioneered in his late works (the last two piano sonatas, the Quintet, the 9th). These consist of outer sections filled with aching pathos and suspended in stasis, with a violently contrasting central climax that winds down into distant harmonic spheres and ends poignantly in the relative major. The scherzo was a nice little thing with a beautiful trio. It's the finale where the bulk of my incomprehension lies, however. It just doesn't seem to work. It lacks development and contrast, and seems to take that pervadent triplet figure to an extreme. The Juilliard performs the quartet well with a light touch and precise articulation, but right now I'm totally with Flamenco on this one. This is very unusual music from a towering composer, but I'm not sure whether its opaque qualities are due to Schubert missing the mark on his large-scale structures and trying to do something out of his reach, or whether it's a work of true genius that takes repeated listens to unearth. The only way to tell is to keep listening - tomorrow it's the Italianos.


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## Mandryka

There's one thing he does in the first movement which I think explains my difficulty with it. Tremolandi. It's like those Liszt transcriptions where he used tremolo as a substitute for sustained orchestral notes, horrible for me, like the worst excesses of Grandma on the parlor upright. Bruckner uses this sort tremolos in the symphonies too I think, though I should say that it's at least 30 years since I last heard a Bruckner symphony, so I could be wrong.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> There's one thing he does in the first movement which I think explains my difficulty with it. Tremolandi. It's like those Liszt transcriptions where he used tremolo as a substitute for sustained orchestral notes, horrible for me, like the worst excesses of Grandma on the parlor upright. Bruckner uses this sort tremolos in the symphonies too I think, though I should say that it's at least 30 years since I last heard a Bruckner symphony, so I could be wrong.


Yes, that's exactly what mystified me, too. I love Bruckner and think that his tremolo introductions are always very exciting and effective. But when working with just four instruments, it seems like a cop-out.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, I deviated from what I said yesterday and chose to go with the pioneering Busch recording today rather than the Italianos. I felt like if any performance was going to turn me around on this one, this was it. Certainly steps were made in understanding the music, but I still feel somewhat mystified by what Schubert was trying to do. I can't explain what it is about the Busch Quartet that makes them so convincing, but it seems like they make perfect sense of the structure in everything they play. They don't linger or wallow, but they bring everything off with supreme expressivity and sensitivity. It really made the second movement speak to me. The first movement rolled along nicely, even though I haven't heard a performance yet with repeat and doubt I really want to. I still think the excessive use of tremolo is very offputting, but I did like the movement more than my previous two listens. The Busch also play the finale more like a romping dance in similar vein to the finale of Death and the Maiden, and I appreciated the qualities they brought out by doing that. It's sort of like the finale of the String Quintet that I never really thought was a satisfactory finish to all the profound outpourings that came before it. But that movement has some nice harmonic stuff going on, while I feel like this movement never really gets going. Perceptions are certainly solidifying, but I'm still stuck with that nagging question: is this a very problematic work, or a very ingenious work?


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## flamencosketches

I've been slacking with the weekly quartet, I'll have to listen again after work. Going to try the Italiano.


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## Enthusiast

I think I listen to this piece in a different way to others here and that I hear different things. It seems from descriptions that some of us are approaching it through listening to it as a narrative or argument - we talk of following it or of our minds drifting, for example - but I don't think I am doing this. What I am experiencing is a whole chunk - whole movements, even the whole piece - and this may be working better? Certainly, I have a feel of the piece and had not even noticed some of the features that irritate or fall short for others. I hear a lovely melody in the first movement, for example, but it is cut short, broken up. The melody in the second movement is treated in a fairly typical way for Schubert but may not be one of his best. Still it works. 

As I listen more I am getting a greater understanding of it. I think it may be one of Schubert's problem works but not to the extent of him abandoning it. I am wondering if I am going to get a greater understanding of why repeats and repetitions in Schubert never bother me and often seem like radical masterstrokes to me from this listening. I'll share it if I get anywhere with that!

Performance: I like some warmth and affection in performances of this work and can see a danger of the music making seeming a little contrived. I found the ABQ a little dry and intellectual in a way that the Italiano and the Busch do not - they both seem to engage the heart more. 

I though it was a work I was familiar with but hadn't fully internalised. But I still have some listening to do.


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yes, that's exactly what mystified me, too. I love Bruckner and think that his tremolo introductions are always very exciting and effective. But when working with just four instruments, it seems like a cop-out.


I'm not sure I get what you mean by cop-out. Are you suggesting that it is mere filler where something more interesting should have been? It does set some aspects of the atmosphere and the atmosphere in this piece is by no means simple ...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> I'm not sure I get what you mean by cop-out. Are you suggesting that it is mere filler where something more interesting should have been? It does set some aspects of the atmosphere and the atmosphere in this piece is by no means simple ...


Yes, sort of. I'm really finding it hard to assimilate my feelings about this work. It's quite unlike anything else I've ever heard. It certainly sets an atmosphere, but I wish it had been confined to the introduction and not reappear so frequently. I'm taking a break from it today, then maybe try one or two last times with Italiano to see if a modern stereo take on the Busch's heartfelt approach can finally win me over.

BTW, Enthusiast, any thoughts on who you'd like to nominate for next week's quartet?


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## Enthusiast

I was responsible for nominating this one: the monster! But maybe we need to go back to Mozart or Haydn?


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## Mandryka

Haydn op 20/3 -- that may be an interesting one to get people's opinions about.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Yes, since there are fewer people participating in this (at least in terms of writing their thoughts...I have no idea how many are listening and not reporting) than I initially hoped, perhaps we could just have a democratic vote. The original concept was for one person to nominate something that either they love and want everyone else to appreciate, or something they'd like to understand better. Haydn sounds fantastic to me, and might be a bit of a reprieve since we've had four quite complex, opaque quartets so far? I'd love to hear your thoughts on voting/nominations...if we want we could even assemble a list of nominations ahead of time and plan in advance.


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## hammeredklavier

.


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## Enthusiast

^ I hope you are not putting words into my mouth. I did not say and do not think that the music of Mozart and Haydn are light. I said and think (know!!) that they came earlier to the ones we have listened to so far.


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## Enthusiast

Meanwhile, we are still with the Schubert, no?

Gidon Kremer recorded the word twice (once involving an arrangement for a larger ensemble and once in an all-star quartet with Yoyo Ma, Kim Kashkashian and Daniel Philips. This latter is a lovely performance and quite different to the recordings by "regular" quartets. I'm not usually a fan of star groupings playing quartets but this one works really well.


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## Mandryka

I suppose there are two big interpretation questions with the Schubert.

1. Do you play it like quiet, confidential, introspective chamber music or like a big extrovert symphony? 
2. What do you do about the exposition repeats?


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## Enthusiast

^ It might respond to both approaches although I don't hear it as an extrovert piece. But then I am not sure "confidential, introspective" works for it either. It is dramatic but with plenty of tender interludes - like a more complicated Death and the Maiden. 

Repeats have never bothered me in Schubert. I think they are an interesting feature and part of his style. Repeats can bother me in some music (I always had reservations about Harnoncourt's expansion of Haydn's Paris Symphonies to make them seem bigger works) but never in Schubert. I am not sure I possess the musical awareness or the language to express what I like about them clearly!


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## flamencosketches

I listened yesterday to the Quartetto Italiano and enjoyed it significantly more than the Chilingirian, but still find it challenging. Going to listen one more time today or tomorrow and then maybe to another recording before the weekend's up. I haven't been as much in a quartet mood this week.

I don't mind the repeats, which QI appears to take. They don't don't detract anything from the music for me. By the way, Enthusiast, you've intrigued me with this Harnoncourt mention. Do you mean the Deutsche Harmonia Mundi release? I see this set is three discs where most other Paris symphonies are only 2. By the way, the way we've been picking the next quartet is whoever picked this week nominates another poster to pick the next one. Perhaps you should nominate Mandryka, and we can go with his suggestion of Haydn op.20 no.3. I don't think that a democratic vote will work.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I listened yesterday to the Quartetto Italiano and enjoyed it significantly more than the Chilingirian, but still find it challenging. Going to listen one more time today or tomorrow and then maybe to another recording before the weekend's up. I haven't been as much in a quartet mood this week.


Do me a favour. Listen if you have time to the first movement the piano sonata D 840 and to the first movement of the 9th symphony and to the first movement of the quintet D 956. Try and choose performances with the exposition repeats. Then tell me, do you feel the same way about these pieces as you do about the G major quartet?

All these pieces seem to me have much in common. I just want to get clearer about whether there are aspects of D 887 which make it particularly problematic.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Do me a favour. Listen if you have time to the first movement the piano sonata D 840 and to the first movement of the 9th symphony and to the first movement of the quintet D 956. Try and choose performances with the exposition repeats. Then tell me, do you feel the same way about these pieces as you do about the G major quartet?
> 
> All these pieces seem to me have much in common. I just want to get clearer about whether there are aspects of D 887 which make it particularly problematic.


I will try and do this later today, listening to all of those first movements. But I can tell you right now that I love the first movement of the 9th, I really love the first movement of the quintet (might be the greatest movement Schubert ever wrote), and I do enjoy the D840 sonata though it's been some time. But also, for the record, I really like the first movement of D887; it's definitely the strongest of the four movements. Where I get lost is somewhere in the middle of the slow movement and I never really find my bearings after that.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Do me a favour. Listen if you have time to the first movement the piano sonata D 840 and to the first movement of the 9th symphony and to the first movement of the quintet D 956. Try and choose performances with the exposition repeats. Then tell me, do you feel the same way about these pieces as you do about the G major quartet?
> 
> All these pieces seem to me have much in common. I just want to get clearer about whether there are aspects of D 887 which make it particularly problematic.


OK. Got you. I am not sure it's the repeats but the quartet is not without problems. I think it is rather fragmented while Schubert's style - which shines through - tends to be flowing. But I find that an interesting experiment.


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## Enthusiast

flamencosketches said:


> I listened yesterday to the Quartetto Italiano and enjoyed it significantly more than the Chilingirian, but still find it challenging. Going to listen one more time today or tomorrow and then maybe to another recording before the weekend's up. I haven't been as much in a quartet mood this week.
> 
> I don't mind the repeats, which QI appears to take. They don't don't detract anything from the music for me. By the way, Enthusiast, you've intrigued me with this Harnoncourt mention. Do you mean the Deutsche Harmonia Mundi release? I see this set is three discs where most other Paris symphonies are only 2. By the way, the way we've been picking the next quartet is whoever picked this week nominates another poster to pick the next one. Perhaps you should nominate Mandryka, and we can go with his suggestion of Haydn op.20 no.3. I don't think that a democratic vote will work.


Yes, it is that Haydn set. It makes the works seem of greater stature (like the London symphonies, perhaps) ... or a little bloated. I find them a little bloated.

I'm very happy to nominate Mandryka to choose the next quartet, whether or not it be by Haydn.


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## jegreenwood

My first experience with the Schubert was the Juilliard Quartet. Listened several times, and I just didn't get it - and I am a big Schubert fan. A few years ago I picked up the Quartetto Italiano recording and had one of those great "aha" moments.


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## Enthusiast

I listened to one more, also involving Kremer, but with a difference. This has been arranged for a larger string ensemble with string quartet and, although I don't usually like scale-ups of chamber music, it does have many lovely moments. Maybe Kremer gets this work as well as anyone (both recordings I have listened to today have been really enjoyable).


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## Allegro Con Brio

^^Nor did I. I would rather listen to any of Haydn's Op. 76 quartets any day to this Schubert. I said it might be a bit of a reprieve since I thought we might need some Classical era beauty and symmetry to relieve the density of the Britten, Brahms, and Schubert.

Edit: Sorry, this was meant for hammeredklavier’s post on page 7. Apparently I didn’t realize there was a whole other page in the meantime.


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## flamencosketches

Enthusiast said:


> Meanwhile, we are still with the Schubert, no?
> 
> Gidon Kremer recorded the word twice (once involving an arrangement for a larger ensemble and once in an all-star quartet with Yoyo Ma, Kim Kashkashian and Daniel Philips. This latter is a lovely performance and quite different to the recordings by "regular" quartets. I'm not usually a fan of star groupings playing quartets but this one works really well.
> 
> View attachment 132043


I would like to try this one. I'll see if I can find it to stream.


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## Allegro Con Brio

For the vast majority of music I really, really don't like repeats. Especially in Schubert where repetition is a part of his style but doesn't need to be dragged out with a 5-minute repeat of the material we just heard. I don't know if I would have the patience to sit through it if that were the case. For my final listen, it will be the Italianos; though that larger-ensemble arrangement that Enthusiast mentions has piqued my interest as well. *Mandryka*, you have been nominated to choose next week's quartet.


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## Enthusiast

flamencosketches said:


> I would like to try this one. I'll see if I can find it to stream.


You should find it on Spotify -


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## Enthusiast

I realised I had another in the Leipziger Quartet set. This one has a lot going for it, too.


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## Mandryka

Haydn op 20/3 in G minor it is then. Hob 33:3 Quartet No. 26 (Haydn numbering is a nightmare!)

My interest was piqued in this music years ago when I heard The Salomon Quartet. Up to then I’d thought of Haydn as an avuncular sort of composer, the famous “papa Haydn” stereotype. But The Salomon find tremendous expressiveness in the quartet, which in their hands is by turns tough and dark and tender and capricious and graceful and indeed free to the point of sounding improvised. This is what I like. More recently, I found one which is maybe even more interesting - the London Haydn Quartet. They have all the expressiveness of The Salomon but they make the music sound so bold in its transitions and in its irregular rhythms and its asymmetries, it’s almost disorienting. This is also what I like. 

Just this past couple of weeks I’ve listened to the quartet probably once a day at least, and I’ve tried to take into account some different interpretations. And you can see how many musicians, even some informed musicians, have approached it with the idea of Haydn as a light and witty composer, agreeable and fundamentally shallow. There are some early and uninformed Haydn performers which satisfy my personal demands from music (I have a soft spot for the searingly intense Tatrai for example, vibrato and all), but not many.


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## Enthusiast

^^ Interesting. It's funny - and you may be right about his reputation - but I never thought of Haydn as avuncular and thought Papa Haydn was a term of respect from other composers (like calling him "the source"). To me he was a composer who used his indentured (is that the right word?) position to experiment continuously with different possibilities. And I am not really sure that a benign or even sparkling approach to his music results in shallowness, does it?

My first hearing in this week of hearings was from the Mosaiques Quartet. It is true that this _*is *_ much "easier" listening that the works so far for this group. But I am not sure that equates with shallowness (not that I am reading you as saying quite that). I do remember liking the Salomons' Haydn so I look forward to that as well.


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## flamencosketches

Are we ending the Schubert week prematurely, typically, we switch on Sunday. Just a good idea to have it picked out ahead of time.


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## Enthusiast

^ We seem to have. Only a couple of us were listening the the Schubert and the general view (of this small group) was negative. I have now listened to it a lot and feel I both enjoy and understand it much more - so mission accomplished as far as I am concerned.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> ^^ Interesting. It's funny - and you may be right about his reputation - but I never thought of Haydn as avuncular and thought Papa Haydn was a term of respect from other composers (like calling him "the source"). To me he was a composer who used his indentured (is that the right word?) position to experiment continuously with different possibilities. And I am not really sure that a benign or even sparkling approach to his music results in shallowness, does it?
> 
> My first hearing in this week of hearings was from the Mosaiques Quartet. It is true that this _*is *_ much "easier" listening that the works so far for this group. But I am not sure that equates with shallowness (not that I am reading you as saying quite that). I do remember liking the Salomons' Haydn so I look forward to that as well.


There's quite a lot of research on the Haydn reception history, and the role of papa. It's interesting - people were keen to make Haydn appear just a jolly tunesmith, unlike the profound Beethoven, so it's all part of the Beethoven reception. I've got a book about this somewhere.

I bet a similar story vis-à-vis Beethoven could be told about the Schubert reception history.

I'm sorry to say that I think that the Mosaïques are utterly terrible in this quartet. Listening to the Haydn again last night made me want to revisit Beethoven's Serioso quartet - but you'd never see the connection from the drivel that Mosaïques come out with.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Are we ending the Schubert week prematurely, typically, we switch on Sunday. Just a good idea to have it picked out ahead of time.


Before abandoning the Schubert completely, I'd like to ask if it's the first quartet to make such prominent use of tremolo, and whether it's the last too.


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## sbmonty

I've listened to the two recordings I own of Schubert's No. 15. The Emersons and the Pražák Quartet. I enjoyed the first two movements significantly more than the following two. I quite liked the tremolo effect, but this seems to contentious. Overall, I've enjoyed the experience, but my biggest problem with it, is it's sheer length. That and the final two movements don't seem to capture my interest.


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## Enthusiast

The last movement sounds great with the Leipziger Quartet!


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## sbmonty

Enthusiast said:


> The last movement sounds great with the Leipziger Quartet!


I'll stream that this morning. Thank you for the recommendation. 
Looking forward to Haydn next!


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> There's quite a lot of research on the Haydn reception history, and the role of papa. It's interesting - people were keen to make Haydn appear just a jolly tunesmith, unlike the profound Beethoven, so it's all part of the Beethoven reception. I've got a book about this somewhere.
> 
> I bet a similar story vis-à-vis Beethoven could be told about the Schubert reception history.


Interesting. It seems like my ignorance protected me from misguidance!

I didn't get your Beethoven - Schubert point. Probably my ignorance again.



Mandryka said:


> I'm sorry to say that I think that the Mosaïques are utterly terrible in this quartet. Listening to the Haydn again last night made me want to revisit Beethoven's Serioso quartet - but you'd never see the connection from the drivel that Mosaïques come out with.


I quite enjoyed the Mosaïques' recording but it isn't a work I know well let alone have strong opinions of how it should go. Their Haydn was very well received by critics (for what that's worth), I think. I must confess that I sometimes find the Mosaïques a little dreary but didn't find it with this one. I've got the Salomon Quartet as well so I'll be able to do a comparison before I go out on the web looking for others.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I didn't get your Beethoven - Schubert point. Probably my ignorance again.
> .


People also thought that Schubert was basically nothing more than a melody writer, someone with a gift for miniatures. That's one reason why the piano sonatas were mostly ignored or abridged by pianists until very recently. I don't know where this reputation came from, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out that those who wanted to promote Beethoven as the major C19 towering figure (e.g. the Beethoven's estate . . .) were involved.


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## sbmonty

The versions I currently have are the Quatuor Mosaiques and the Kodály Quartet. I'll compare then listen to other recommendations as they come in.


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## Mandryka

Unfortunately I can't see any interesting performances on youtube, apart from Tatrai, which is certainly worth hearing.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Weekly Quartet, Week 5: Haydn - Op. 20, No. 3*

OK then, on to Haydn! The father of the modern string quartet (do you think that title is accurate or were there any other obscure composers writing quartets before him that we need to know about....?) has given me countless hours of pleasure through this music. Not only his quartets, but also his numerous concerti, piano trios, piano sonatas, and later symphonies are my immediate go-to music when I need something to lift my spirits and enhance my day. I certainly would not call anything he wrote "lightweight," perhaps nonchalant instead. Wikipedia has an overarching article on the Op. 20 "Sun" quartets (which it claims solidified Haydn's reputation as the father of the genre), including a nice little analysis of the Op. 20/3 work. William Drabkin claims, "This quartet is among the more enigmatic pieces in the repertory. Indeed, the work is in so many respects unusual that it seems to in many places defy interpretation." Wikipedia also says that Haydn seems to be "wagging his tongue at his contemporaries" by writing strange, unbalanced phrasing structures that seemed very odd for the Classical Era. I, for one, look very much forward to diving into this one, and I hope we all have a slightly easier, but no less productive week of quartet-ing!

As for performances, there are a few on my radar; even though it appears that this opus has earned fewer recordings than the later opi such as Op. 76. The *Lindsays* are an ensemble that I always enjoy, and will maybe go for first. The *Hagen, Kodaly,* and *Vegh* also look like good bets. Mandryka mentions the *Tatrai,* but I can't find their recordings of Op. 20 on the streaming service I use. Shall have to check them out on YouTube. Happy listening! I would also ask that all those who are participating in this activity write at least something on their thoughts, just so we can get a "headcount" of all those who are actively involved in this.


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## flamencosketches

Hmm, too bad. I was just starting to appreciate the Schubert. I’ll have to give this Haydn quartet a listen after work. I think I have only one recording, the Kodály. I’d like to get the London Haydn Qt. too.


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## Eramire156

I've listened to about 10 recordings of the Schubert, including the Flonzaley Quartet this morning, the two that stood out for me are the Busch and Quatuor Voce, both ensembles are not afraid to play softly when the music calls it, and keep the tension without it becoming overwrought, I can still hear some music in my head even though it has been several hours since I listened to it, that is when I know I like a piece of music. On to Haydn, work has been crazy in the current situation, so I might not chime in til I have a day off, everybody be well.


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## Mandryka

Eramire156 said:


> the two that stood out for me are the Busch and Quatuor Voce, both ensembles are not afraid to play softly when the music calls it, and keep the tension without it becoming overwrought,.


Both of whom cheat by leaving out the 1st movement repeats.


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## Eramire156

Mandryka said:


> Both of whom cheat by leaving out the 1st movement repeats.


Obviously I didn't miss them, give your pick of a recording with the repeats, and I'll give it a listen.


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## Eramire156

[video]https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/2014-video-archive-1/haydn-quartet-in-g-minor-for-strings-op-20-no-3-hob-iii33/[/video]

From the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center, video of a performance by Orion String Quartet


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## Josquin13

Schubert's final String Quartet no. 15, D. 887, is my favorite quartet by Schubert. I've never understood why more attention gets paid to his SQ no. 14, "Death & the Maiden", which granted is a very fine quartet, but it doesn't have the same depth of sound and complexity as No.15. Indeed Schubert's last String Quartet has a grander symphonic scale or scope that sets it apart from his other quartets, much in the same way that the size and length of his final Symphony no. 9 (or 8), the "Great" C major is set apart from his other 7 symphonies.

I first heard the 15th in my early days of exploring classical music, at the recommendation of one of the music critics writing for the old Penguin Guide (circa the early 1980s, when it was an invaluable guide). I recall that the critic considered this quartet to be--& I quote--one of Schubert's "most profound utterances". The recording that he reviewed was by the Gabrieli Quartet, and if memory serves, the Penguin Guide awarded the LP a 'rosette'. I wasn't quite so enamored with the Gabrieli's playing as the PG critic, but I did respond deeply to the quartet itself, and was grateful for the introduction.

Then, I heard Gidon Kremer, Daniel Philips, Kim Kashkashian, & Yo-Yo Ma play the quartet in recital at the Academy of Music in Philadelphia, and they were better than the Gabrielis, which only intensified my admiration for the work. As others have mentioned, this group then made a recording for CBS, and it's a very good performance, despite that the Penguin Guide only gave it two & a half stars (out of three) when it came out (see my comments below).

For me, this quartet is one of Schubert's finest chamber works, along with his String Quintet in C, D. 956, and piano trios and "Trout" Piano Quintet. However, I'm not surprised to hear that some people are uncertain about it or having trouble wrapping their heads around it--so do professional musicians. For decades (during the LP era), this wasn't a quartet that got recorded much. Groups tended to shy away from it, at least in comparison to the "Death and the Maiden" quartet (not to mention the string quartets of Haydn, Mozart, & Beethoven). As a result, for a long time it wasn't all that well known. Even a decade or so ago, I recall recommending it to people on the old Amazon classical forum, and was surprised to find that a number of the more seasoned listeners didn't know it.

By the time the Alban Berg Quartet came to record the work for EMI in the 1980, only the Busch, Italiano, Gabrieli, and possibly the Amadeus quartets had recorded it, that I can recall. However, since then, many quartets have tried to come to terms with it, and to varying degrees of success. Indeed, there are only a handful of recordings that I'd recommend hearing (among those I've heard), and even fewer that I'd strongly recommend.

Is that Schubert's fault? No, I don't think so. Though I wouldn't claim that his quartet writing skills were on the same level as Mozart's "Dissonance" Quartet, or Haydn's Op. 76 set--few, if any, are. Rather, with late Schubert--& I think more so than with any other composer--I find it difficult to discover performances that I can deeply connect with. For me, Schubert is a deceptively difficult composer to play well, interpretatively, and do justice to: considering that towards the end of his short life, he wasn't quite a full-fledged romantic composer, nor was he any longer a purely classical composer, either. Plus, he was hugely influenced by Beethoven's (middle &) late works--for better or worse, and I expect that this influence lies behind the expanded symphonic scale of his final string quartet. To my mind, the younger Schubert was trying to compose a work here more along the lines of one of Beethoven's late string quartets.

In other words, I don't think it's so much that Schubert lacked the skills to write a finely crafted 'classical' string quartet--since he'd already proven that he could do so with some of his earlier quartets--such as nos. 10-14 (and especially his 13th & 14th SQs, yes?)--but rather that, towards the end of his life, he'd fallen heavily under Beethoven's spell, and there was no going back. All of which can make for an elusive combination of styles in late Schubert, and the mixture can be difficult for musicians to make sense of, interpretatively.

No where is that more apparent than in the 1st movement of Schubert's final quartet no. 15, D. 887. When I re-listened to this quartet the other day I was again struck by the sense of personal despair and agony and drama in the 1st movement--a kind of screaming out from the depths of the soul (not dissimilar to late Beethoven, considering the intensity of the expression; not to mention that the movement has a massive length similar to the "Eroica" Symphony), and yet there is also the most delicate human fragility and intimacy communicated at the same time. When quartets don't bring out the latter effectively enough, or underplay it, or gloss over it, the movement doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For example, when it is primarily played for its dramatic effects by groups with a high technical polish or bravura, I find that something is missing (such as with the Emerson Quartet). For me, a great performance of this movement has to express a strong sense of human fragility and intimacy, and we have to hear all of the individuality of the four parts, for the music to work effectively.

So who manages to pull the difficult 1st movement off?

--Juilliard Quartet--I wouldn't call this a great performance, interpretatively, but it is very good, and for Juilliard fans it will be worth hearing. My problem lies more with their intonation, which goes out of tune (as is often the case with this group). I think it's mostly due to their first violinist, Robert Mann, but there are some bad sounding clashes when they all play aggressively together, and I don't think it's all simply due to Mann's 'not so hot' intonation. I find it frustrating, because interpretatively, they can be an engaging quartet. But why should I listen to them?, when there are equally engaging, if not better quartets from more recent times whose intonation isn't lacking? If you want to hear what I'm on about, compare the Juilliards to the ABQ (or Kremer-Philips-Kashkashian-Ma), who play in tune (& offer everything else & arguably more):

Juilliard: 



Alban Berg: 




--IMO, the Chilingirian Quartet understands this music very deeply, but their interpretation isn't all that classical or restrained. They view Schubert as a full-fledged romantic composer. Indeed, they give a highly (& at times wildly) expressive, youthful performance, and it works on its own terms, but may not be to all tastes(?). Personally, I like how the Chilingirians play this music (a lot), but then, I'm a huge fan of Levon Chilingirian's violin playing: which, most attractively, is even more wildly untamed than Robert Mann's, but unlike Mann, Chilingirian manages to stay in tune: 



. Strongly recommended, but possibly not for everyone.

--Quartetto Italiano is easier to listen to. They don't go for the same highly expressive volatile contrasts that the Chilingirian's bring out and highlight, but take a more sober, classical view. They are more restrained, and less emotional and expressive--but not lacking in emotion, just less energetic at times. In comparison to the Chilingirians, the contrast is one between a young quartet versus an older quartet. The advantage of the Italians is that they arguably produce a greater sense of intimacy and beauty of sound and the performance is more seamless. But it's not as exciting, and I can even find them a tad dull or lacking in energy at times (which is maybe the result of their being overly reverential towards the music?). Nevertheless, it's a very fine performance, and a solid recommendation for those that don't like the Chilingirian Quartet's more lively approach: 



.

--The Alban Berg Quartet's 1980 performance is one of the great performances on record I think. They are technically and interpretatively superior to both the QI, Juilliard, & Chilingirian quartets (& to most other quartets, as well), in my view. It is a very intimate performance, too, which I find wholly appropriate. Indeed, the ABQ are able to bring out an unusually strong sense that there is something deeply "profound" being expressed within the intimacy of the first movement, and yet they're also exciting and impassioned when the music calls for it, as well, & I think more so than the Italians (on both counts). (I also hear a slight "Viennese" flavor in the music, at times, which I found very interesting.) Their ensemble is also second to none, and technically the playing is more immaculate and polished than the Chilingirians, and to all the quartets that preceded them in the recording of this work: 



.

However, unfortunately, the digital technology has thinned down the ABQ's string sound due to the less than ideal 20-bit remaster, and it can grate a bit on CD (though that may be more of a stereo dependent issue, since it doesn't seem to bother some listeners). Which is a pity, since the original analogue performance sounded rich and warm & beautiful on LP (and cassette). Maybe EMI will give it a better remastering someday--one that it deserves (along with a new remastering of the Alban Berg's remarkable 1st studio Beethoven cycle, about which I could make the same criticism, since EMI has not remastered those recordings, either, since the CDs first appeared in the 1980s). I hope they will (or maybe license them to Pentatone, who will bother to do so?). Otherwise, I'd give it a strong recommendation, obviously.

--Melos Quartett (of Stuttgart): The Melos Quartett has recorded this quartet twice, the first time as part of their complete survey of Schubert's SQs for DG, and later for Harmonia Mundi (as part of an HM set of Schubert's last three SQs). I haven't heard the HM recording in a long time, so I'll comment on the first movement from their DG performance (which is on YT). I'd place the playing here nearly on the same level as the ABQ's, and it is a very fine performance; however, it doesn't have quite the same degree of intimacy and subtlety and finesse as the ABQ's: 




--Belcea Quartet: This is another very good performance, & it comes in terrific sound. Interpretatively, the Belcea players understand the content of this music well. My one quibble is that I can find their 1st movement slightly drags in places. The music making doesn't become flaccid, I wouldn't go that far, but it does perhaps slacken a bit at times (maybe they're too precious with the music?, or overdo the sense of intimacy and introspection?). The big advantage of the Belcea recording is that they've been given first class sound quality by the EMI engineers, & it's better than what most other quartets I've heard have received. Here's a YT link: 



.

--Whenever I'm having trouble finding a great performance or a recording that I can deeply connect to, my philosophy is--"when in doubt go with Czech or Hungarian musicians", or musicians from the old music capitals of the former Eastern block--Prague, Budapest, Leipzig, & Dresden. I find that musicians from these places often bring a stronger interpretative depth and understanding to the music they play, and their musicianship is usually first class. That is true of my top 'bargain' pick for Schubert's String Quartet no. 15, which is a recording by the excellent Hungarian Kodály Quartet. The Kodály's playing of the opening movement is great, interpretatively, and they've been given a very good digital sound recording by Naxos--plus, it's a discount CD. So, what's not to like? Not much, in my view. For me, this is one of the great performances of the quartet on record, and the Kodálys give the 1st movement one of most engaging and satisfying accounts I've heard: 



. If you've had trouble making sense of this quartet (or am not sure whether you like it), the Kodály's performance makes a prime pick, IMO, as the players have done all the work for you. You need only listen. Strongly recommended.

--Busch Quartet--This is a great performance, too, interpretatively. The Busch Quartet has everything, musically, and the historical mono sound isn't bad at all. Interestingly, they see this work in a more expressive, romantic vein. For example, I find that their 1st movement has more in common with the Chilingirian Quartet's untamed, yet vital interpretation than it does with the Berg or Italian quartets: 



. Strongly recommended (unless a minor use of violin slides or the historical sound bothers you).

--Kremer-Philips-Kaskashian-Ma: This is a more unusual, individualistic performance than the others. It is less dramatic, overall, in preference to the group's finding and relishing and lingering over all sorts of subtleties and details in the score (which is partly due to Kremer's astonishing ability to project the most subtle nuances in the music he plays). But the performance never slackens--or loses the forest for the trees, since the musicians are fiercely concentrated & clearly listening to each other. I like that each part is played with a greater individuality than with some of the more homogenous sounding quartets. There is a real sense of a musical dialogue happening between the "star" players. As a result, I feel like I've got the score laid out in front of me when I listen to them. In my opinion, the old Penquin Guide underrated this performance when it first came out, and I suspect that that's because it is a very different interpretation from the Gabrieli Quartet's prior "rosette" performance (& technically superior). If I had been writing for the PG back then, I'd have given this recording ***three stars, or possibly even a 'rosette', and the Gabrielis **two & 1/2 stars. Strongly recommended, but maybe not as a first or only pick.










Among those recordings that I've not heard are the Tetzlaff Quartet's, which has received excellent reviews: 



. There's also an Orfeo recording from the Brandis Quartet that is well regarded, and has very good sound: 



. Nor have I heard either the Wihan Quartet, who Mandryka mentions favorably: 



, or the Verdi Quartet--from their complete Schubert cycle on the Hänssler label. I'd also be curious to hear the excellent Amati Quartet play this music, too, on the Divox label: https://www.deezer.com/us/album/171397; as well as maybe Quatour Sine Nomine on Erato, and the Russian Taneyev String Quartet (as part of a cheap downloadable cycle: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00FZNU0L6/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp).

I have heard the recordings by the Leipzig and Auryn String Quartets, as part of their complete box set surveys of Schubert's SQs, but I don't remember them, which probably says something. I didn't overly care for the Diogenes Quartet's performance of this quartet, on Brilliant, and regretted buying their set. For me, the agogic accents are overstressed at times, interpretatively, & I don't think it works especially well. The Diogenes also weirdly distort & draw out the length of certain notes, & it doesn't work, IMO: 



. But yes, they're not as square as certain other groups, so if you're looking for something radically different from the rest of the pack to listen to...

To summarize, in my opinion, the recordings by the Alban Berg Quartet, Busch Quartet, Kodály Quartet, Kremer-Philips-Kashkashian-Ma, Melos Quartett, Quarteto Italiano, and Chilingirian Quartets are the best in the catalogue (among those I've heard); although, as noted, the Chilingirians offer a more untamed "romantic" view of the quartet than others. I also expect that some critics and listeners might put the Belcea Quartet's recording on their own list of top choices; however, I'm undecided about doing so, myself.

Like Schubert's final string quartet, his String Quintet in C, D. 956 provides another prime illustration of how difficult it can be to discover a great performance of a late Schubert work. For years, I didn't understand why Schubert's late String Quintet reduced some people to tears and why they considered it to be one of their favorite 'desert island' chamber works (although I understood why it was considered one of Schubert's better works, of course). Until one day I heard a new recording that came with my BBC magazine subscription by the Vellinger String Quartet, with cellist Bernard Greenhouse (of the Beaux Arts Trio), and it finally all clicked. After having heard many performances that didn't especially move me, I suddenly found myself deeply moved by the opening movement, when played by Greenhouse & the Vellinger players. At last, I understood what all the fuss was about:





https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Str...ert+quintet+BBC&qid=1584744292&s=music&sr=1-1

While I don't think I've heard a better digital era performance than the Vellinger's, there is also an old Soviet era performance by Rostropovich and the Taneyev Quartet that is great, too, but it comes in lesser sound. I've got it on an old Westminster Gold LP recording that is hard to come by on CD: 



. I've also come to very much like a 1981 Decca recording by the Fitzwilliam Quartet, with cellist Christopher van Kampen, which has now been reissued by both Eloquence and Presto Classical: 



. The Alban Berg Quartet recording with cellist Heinrich Schiff is good, too.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Unbelievable analysis, Josquin! You made me want to listen to it again For someone who struggles with understanding the integration of thematic ideas and the overarching structure of the work, which would you say is the one to hear? ABQ? Italiano? BTW I actually agree with you on the String Quintet - I find its consistent adulation here kind of mystifying even though it is, of course, a fantastic work. When I get in the mood for it again, I'll try the Vellinger recording that you recommended. Right now my favorite is the early-50's one with Casals and Stern. 

We sort of have two different quartet discussions going on here simultaneously, which is fine. We'll "officially" switch over to Haydn on Sunday; in the meantime feel free to keep talking about/listening to Schubert.


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## Mandryka

One thing that I think really matters in the first movement of the Schubert is the polyphony. I know that people say that Schubert’s just a lyrical composer but it isn’t true. Busch quartet may have been aware of this, but in all the transfers I’ve heard the lower registers sound much less present and characterful than the upper voices. This may be a problem with all the old recordings. I think you need a great cellist to make this music work, and he needs to make himself felt in the whole.

I stick to what I say, Wihan’s the best I’ve heard with repeats, though I was thrilled by Tetzlaff when I first heard it, I’ve not gone back for a while, because recently I’ve been more in the mood for quiet intimacy than for excitement. Without repeats - well I haven’t really explored, for me the intellectual challenge comes from understanding and appreciating those repeats - which of course make the whole thing rather top heavy.


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## Enthusiast

Josquin13 said:


> Schubert's final String Quartet no. 15, D. 887, is my favorite quartet by Schubert....


A good survey of options. I'll have to try the ABQ again as I didn't greatly like it. I do often find them a little ... intellectual.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I do often find them a little ... intellectual.


What's wrong with intellectual?



Enthusiast said:


> I'll have to try the ABQ again al.


Be sure it's the one with Hatto Bayerle. I don't know if that's the one Josquin's talking about (no repeats! There are tons of decent recordings with no repeats, it's just not special as music like that! With no repeats it's no better or worse than Death and the Maiden -- same old same old, a sort of short ride in a stormy and stressy C 19 machine. Sub-Heroic-Beethoven. With the repeats it may be impossible to play but it has the potential, the promise, to be something prescient.)


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## Enthusiast

Nothing wrong with being intellectual but for me it is only half the deal where music is concerned.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> Without repeats - well I haven't really explored, for me the intellectual challenge comes from understanding and appreciating those repeats - which of course make the whole thing rather top heavy.


So you believe that repeats should always be observed no matter what? In Schubert I can't help but think they are there just as a formality rather than him actually intending it as an important structural element. It drives me nuts in the D959 sonata and in the String Quintet. Same in some Brahms, though he admitted that the huge repeat in his 2nd Symphony was just there out of tradition and that it could be omitted. I find this quartet challenging enough without the repeat, but perhaps paying more attention to the polyphony and including the repeat would help. I'm really trying to keep my mind open, but it's something I've never liked. When I first joined, I was even considering making my username "Anti Expo Repeat Crusader" or something cheeky like that, but I figured it would be too long!


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> So you believe that repeats should always be observed no matter what?


I don't know, probably not, I don't know, I haven't thought about it. In Schubert you have a phenomenon of _himmlische Länge_, that's a major part of his art, I don't think it should be zapped away, pruned away. I mean, it's a bit like cutting out some of the repeats in Feldman.


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## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio writes, "You made me want to listen to it again For someone who struggles with understanding the integration of thematic ideas and the overarching structure of the work, which would you say is the one to hear? ABQ? Italiano?"

Not the Italiano (for the criticisms that I mentioned in my previous post), although they're certainly very good. I'd say the Kodály Quartet, but mainly because the Naxos sound quality is better than EMI's 1980s remaster for the Alban Berg Quartet. But if you still listen to LPs (or cassettes), or have a high end audiophile stereo system, then I'd say maybe the ABQ. Although the Kodály Quartet is arguably just as good. Both are on You Tube, & here's another link to the Kodály Quartet performance:






Yes, I was a bit mystified about the 'cult' following surrounding the String Quintet, too--that is, until I heard the Vellinger Quartet & cellist Bernard Greenhouse play it, as mentioned. The entire recording can be listened to for free on You Tube, but unfortunately the one playlist on YT reverses the playing order of the 4 movements. Here are the movements put in their proper order:


















As mentioned, I see this as one of the great recordings of Schubert's String Quintet (along with the Taneyev/Rostropovich & Fitzwilliam/van Kampen recordings), so I wasn't left wondering why a cellist of Bernard Greenhouse's stature would agree to record Schubert's famous String Quintet with a lesser known, young quartet at the time. However, what has left me perplexed is that I've not heard or seen another recording by this remarkable quartet? It makes me wonder if they may have changed their name, or if there was a personality clash or transgression within the group that caused them to call it quits? Whatever their story, it's a shame that the Vellinger Quartet hasn't had (or didn't have) more of a recording career, as they are/were four truly exceptional musicians.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Thanks for that, Josquin. As a matter of fact, I just finished listening to the Italianos before I saw your post. I'm glad to report that the quartet has finally clicked for me! Their slower tempi and warmer tones really helped me understand what Schubert was trying to do. Things seemed to unfold naturally and symphonically, allowing me to savor the miraculous flow of Schubert's gorgeous melodies. I feel like performances that take their time with the music and lavish attention to detail really nail Schubert for me - I can definitely see how someone can interpret it as dull and lacking in energy, but I finally "got" how the piece was put together through this approach. This time I found the first movement fascinating in its subtly-shaded and always-changing harmonies, the Andante beautiful in its restrained lyricism, the scherzo gloriously youthful rather than a lightning-speed romp (as I'd only heard it played before), and some great contrapuntal things going on in the finale. And that tremolo seemed more like a recurring motif of significance rather than an annoyance. I would love to hear some of the recordings you recommended someday, but for now I'll be content that I've finally found enjoyment from this quartet, and get ready to move on to Haydn.


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## Josquin13

Mandryka writes, "Be sure it's the one with Hatto Bayerle. I don't know if that's the one Josquin's talking about (no repeats!"

Yes, there's only one commercial recording of no. 15 by the Alban Berg Quartet, and it was made for EMI in 1980, and Hatto Bayerle plays on it, and they don't take the repeat.

I wasn't focused on which quartets repeat the exposition in the 1st movement in my earlier post, but maybe I should have been. It does give the 1st movement & the whole quartet a more "Eroica" like length & symphonic scope, which is part of what separates the 15th from the rest of Schubert's SQs, as I pointed out earlier. You may be right, Mandryka. I'm going to have to think about what you've written, and hear some different recordings than the ones I'm so used to.

One recording that I forgot to mention, where the players do take the repeat is a 2009 Virgin release by the Artemis Quartet (an earlier incarnation of the group), which is an HIP performance, since the players use little vibrato. But unfortunately, it's not on YT. The Brandis Quartet on Orfeo also takes the repeat (but not on their Nimbus recording): 



. So too does the Hagen Quartet: 



, Takacs Quartet: 



, and Tetzlaff Quartet, who sound even more HIP than the Artemis Quartet, as they don't appear to use ANY vibrato (I'm listening to it now & it's taking some adjustment): 



. But I've not heard any of these performances.

Another recording that I forgot to mention is the one by the Cherubini Quartet, and they take the repeat, too:


















I've also read favorable comments about the Supraphon recording by the Czech Panocha Quartet, but I don't know it (although I have been enjoying the Panocha's Haydn lately). They also take the exposition repeat: 



.

The Mandelring Quartet has recorded the work, too, as part of their complete Schubert cycle. They take the repeat, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCCJBvRSYF8; as does Cuarteto Casals, whose approach is HIP (& they're a group that I've liked very much in Haydn & Mozart SQs, and they have an extremely fine cellist): 



.

Finally, there's a well reviewed recording from Quatour Voce on Alpha that I've likewise not heard, but they don't take the repeat: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8655962--mozart-schubert-quartets-nos-15

I must say I'm very surprised at how many quartets have recorded this work over the past 2-3 decades. It's a lot more than I had realized. I think it's safe to say that Schubert's final SQ can no longer be counted as neglected music, but has become a very popular work for quartets to play.

I'll be curious if people listen to any of the above recordings that take the exposition repeat in the 1st movement, and like one of the performances. I'll try to listen to one or two myself.


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## Mandryka

Oh yes, you're right. ABQ made just one recording of the 15th quartet and two recordings of the quintet, one with Hatto Beyerle and one with Thomas Kakuska. I was mixing them up.


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## Selby

Although I haven't had time to post I've been listening to the Schubert (and the Brahms prior) and have really appreciated people's posts here. Thanks for the oasis in a nervous time.


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## Allegro Con Brio

...and it's time to officially move on to Haydn! Please see Post #134 for the formal introduction. Have fun...I'll report back later after my initial listen to the Lindsays.


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## flamencosketches

Listening for the first time. I've heard this quartet before, but don't particularly remember it. I'm listening to the Kodály Quartet on Naxos. It's been entirely too long since I've heard any Haydn—a great composer all around, but especially for his string quartets. 

I think I'd seen some mention of Beethoven's Serioso quartet and I can maybe see where the comparison lies. I want to briefly note that I think the cello part is great here, well thought out. But I'll write back with more thoughts once I'm finished.


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## Iota

I took the disc from the Mosaiques box for this. I seem to remember someone expressing dislike of them earlier in the thread, but I must say I find this a penetrating, lovely performance. 

My few arbitrary and unscholarly thoughts are that, apart from being a very welcome beacon of sanity (like just about any other Haydn quartet) Opus 20/3 seems to fizz with character and find an almost perfect balance between introvert and extrovert, interjectory and flowing. 
The 1st movement in particular seems to me highly operatic, the way for example short distinct phrases follow each other in the manner of a recitative-like conversation (Nozze hovering in the back of my mind, despite the Haydn being written 15 or so years before), but that feeling never quite left off throughout all the remaining movements.
And such an affecting slow movement, full of unaffected expressivity. The whole quartet yet another pearl in a long string that Haydn very considerately left us.


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## Selby

I will be listening to the Quatuor Mosaiques performance from their 10 disc box of Haydn. For those interested we will be listening to Haydn in the Piano Sonata thread as well to pair for the week. Cheers,


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## Allegro Con Brio

This is definitely a work that not only contradicts the "genial, predictable 'ol Papa Haydn" stereotype, but also contradicts the entire stereotype about Classical Period music being bland and formulaic. Though it is admittedly probably my least favorite musical era (not counting 21st century, which I haven't dived into), there are wondrous gems aplenty to discover. This quartet reminds me a lot of the Mozart G Minor Quintet, which is possibly my favorite work from either Mozart or Haydn. I would not be surprised if Mozart studied this work and gained inspiration from it. It balances darkness and light, power and lyricism, and many other contrasts in perfect, delicate proportion. Certainly not "light" fare by any stretch of the imagination, but it is more compact, streamlined and "easier on the ear" than our previous quartets, which I find a relief. First impressions - I loved the first movement's tight, nervous atmosphere and also noticed, as Iota mentions, the "conversational" type nature of the music. The minuet is unusual for being placed before the slow movement, and features an amazing contrast with the lyrical trio section. I can only imagine that Haydn's audience would be challenged to say the least. The Adagio is quintessential warm, relaxed Haydn but is not without its moments of hinting towards a deeper pathos. But the finale is what struck me as most radical - a very short movement, but I was reminded of our discussion about the Brahms quartet a couple weeks ago and the function of a brief, breathless whirlwind finale; a concept that Haydn experimented with here well before the Romantic era. The final notes just simply fade down into nothingness - I kept waiting for the big, final, affirming cadence that would inevitably finish it off, but it never came! It ends in total ambiguity and did not leave me feeling satisfied - but that's what I love about it! The Lindsay performance was immaculately played and phrased, but lacked, as Mandryka says, the darker elements of the music, instead treating it as more like an agreeable serenade. I look forward to continuing my exploration of this troublesome but superb quartet.


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## Bulldog

Op. 20/3 is one of my favorite string quartets of any time period. The 1st movement has phrasing that takes me to Tuscany and the Minuet's trio is stunning. Dialogue is what I like best in Haydn's string quartets, and it's in abundance in the G minor.

As for recordings, I prefer the period instrument accounts by the Salomon on Hyperion (deleted) and Mosaiques on Naive.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The Lindsay performance was immaculately played and phrased, but lacked, as Mandryka says, the darker elements of the music, instead treating it as more like an agreeable serenade. I look forward to continuing my exploration of this troublesome but superb quartet.


The Lindsay Quartet are a too radiant and fluid for me, it makes the music sound close to what I'd expect from Mozart. I've been very much enjoying an old modern instrument one though, from the Koeckert Quartet.

Re the rest of your post which I snipped away, there may well be a connection to Brahms, I'm sure I read that somewhere but I can't remember the details or the reference! The whole op 20 set is well worth exploring, I'd be reluctant to say that op 20/3 is the peak. Op 20/4, for example, is full of special things, as is op 20/2.


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## Mandryka

Iota said:


> The 1st movement in particular seems to me highly operatic, the way for example short distinct phrases follow each other in the manner of a recitative-like conversation (Nozze hovering in the back of my mind, despite the Haydn being written 15 or so years before), but that feeling never quite left off throughout all the remaining movements..


Yes, interesting ideas, thanks. I think my only reservation about what you say is that in the performances which inspire me the most, there isn't the lightness, the fizz, the champagne, of Figaro. But I'm interested in the idea of recitative.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> The 1st movement has phrasing that takes me to Tuscany.


Why?

. Sxmnnsxmxkwxn


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## flamencosketches

Wow, the op. 20 quartets were published way back in 1772. Beethoven was one year old at the time, Mozart was a teenager. This all being the case, Haydn was certainly ahead of his time, here. 

The first movement starts off already on a strange note, with the opening phrase being made up of 7-bar themes. Despite being the only entry in the op.20 set in a minor key, it's not an especially dark work. I really love the slow movement, one of the most beautiful cantabile movements in all of Haydn (or in all of the very little I know anyway!) I am not sure how I feel about the abruptness of the finale. Overall I would agree with Bulldog that there is a big emphasis on dialog throughout the quartet, particularly between the first violin and cello. 

Not much else to add here, sorry. I'm going to try and find another recording. I still have only heard the Kodály.


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## jurianbai




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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Wow, the op. 20 quartets were published way back in 1772. Beethoven was one year old at the time, Mozart was a teenager. This all being the case, Haydn was certainly ahead of his time, here.
> 
> The first movement starts off already on a strange note, with the opening phrase being made up of 7-bar themes. Despite being the only entry in the op.20 set in a minor key, it's not an especially dark work. I really love the slow movement, one of the most beautiful cantabile movements in all of Haydn (or in all of the very little I know anyway!) I am not sure how I feel about the abruptness of the finale. Overall I would agree with Bulldog that there is a big emphasis on dialog throughout the quartet, particularly between the first violin and cello.
> 
> Not much else to add here, sorry. I'm going to try and find another recording. I still have only heard the Kodály.


I enjoyed listening to the Kodaly Quartet play this one, I appreciated the seriousness of it. I'll try to hear the rest of their op 20s. Thanks for mentioning it.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Wow, the op. 20 quartets were published way back in 1772. . . I really love the slow movement, one of the most beautiful cantabile movements in all of Haydn (or in all of the very little I know anyway!)


Check the slow movement of symphony 51, written the year after, 1773.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Check the slow movement of symphony 51, written the year after, 1773.


Thanks, I will. Glad you enjoyed the Kodály.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I heard the Kodaly yesterday, and liked their more straightforward approach. Strong attacks, definitely more muscle and "gravitas" than the Lindsay recording I had previously heard. I agree that this quartet is not necessarily a "dark" work, but it has enough "out-of-the-ordinary" elements for the time to make it quite unusual. And I just may have to concur that the slow movement may be the loveliest of Haydn's that I've heard. I also took the opportunity yesterday to sample the 1st and 2nd quartets of the "Sun" opus, and found them just as delightful, stimulating, and imaginative. Such glorious music! I think for Op. 20/3, I'll next try one of the period-instrument recordings - Salomon or Mosaiques. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference in performance style in addition to instrument choice.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> , I'll next try one of the period-instrument recordings - Salomon or Mosaiques. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference in performance style in addition to instrument choice.


Salomon will.

Smsmxmsm


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks, I will..


I wonder whether the cantabile slow movement style is actually a feature of his earlier quartets, op 17. I've only just started to listen to the music, I could be wrong to make such a suggestion, but what I've heard so far is promising.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Check the slow movement of symphony 51, written the year after, 1773.


Those horns! Fantastic. I love Haydn's writing in this cantabile style.

I need to explore more of Haydn's earlier symphonies. I'm only familiar with the London and Paris symphonies.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Those horns! Fantastic. I love Haydn's writing in this cantabile style.
> 
> I need to explore more of Haydn's earlier symphonies. I'm only familiar with the London and Paris symphonies.


He clearly had some good horn players in his orchestra.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Those horns! Fantastic. I love Haydn's writing in this cantabile style.
> 
> I need to explore more of Haydn's earlier symphonies. I'm only familiar with the London and Paris symphonies.


He clearly had some good horn players in his orchestra. I suppose he wrote like that to keep 'em happy.


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Why?


It has to do with my trip to Florence/Tuscany and what I consider the Italian phrasing.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> OK then, on to Haydn! The father of the modern string quartet (do you think that title is accurate or were there any other obscure composers writing quartets before him that we need to know about....?) has given me countless hours of pleasure through this music. Not only his quartets, but also his numerous concerti, piano trios, piano sonatas, and later symphonies are my immediate go-to music when I need something to lift my spirits and enhance my day. I certainly would not call anything he wrote "lightweight," perhaps nonchalant instead. Wikipedia has an overarching article on the Op. 20 "Sun" quartets (which it claims solidified Haydn's reputation as the father of the genre), including a nice little analysis of the Op. 20/3 work. William Drabkin claims, "This quartet is among the more enigmatic pieces in the repertory. Indeed, the work is in so many respects unusual that it seems to in many places defy interpretation." Wikipedia also says that Haydn seems to be "wagging his tongue at his contemporaries" by writing strange, unbalanced phrasing structures that seemed very odd for the Classical Era. I, for one, look very much forward to diving into this one, and I hope we all have a slightly easier, but no less productive week of quartet-ing!


I've just been listening to my Kodaly recording of this and it's certainly an enigmatic quartet. As others have noted there's a 'Meditteranean' (for want of a better word) feel to the first movement that I like a great deal. The Kodaly's dig in hard here and really sell this. Interestingly the quartet changes a great deal through the next two movements and the Kodaly's change their style, playing warmly, intelligently and articulating superbly. They handle the adagio really well for such a long, complex movement. The final movement is unusual in it's short length and lack of a resloution at the end. I hadn't listened to this one in a long time and thoroughly enjoyed how the Kodalys managed it. Apologies if my amateurish attempts at discussing music (I'm no music theorist) sound a bit duff. I just hope I've conveyed how much I enjoyed this, today.


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## StDior

Haydn op.20 string quartets (the Sun quartets) are one of the greatest achievements/milestones in the history of the classical music. The No.2 and No.3 quartets of the collection are one of the most underrated classical music overall IMHO.
Why are they underrated?
Let’s see some classical charts on the internet:
DigitalDreamDoors Top 160 Classical Chamber works: There are 13 Haydn string quartets on this chart, two of them from the op.20, but no op.20 No.2 and no.3 on the list.
Talk Classical Top 200 Recommended String Quartets List: Otherwise very great list with 13 Haydn String quartets on it, one from the op.20, but no op.20 No.2 and no.3 on the list.
I hardly believed that. For me these two are the best Haydn String Quartets, slightly above the also genial op.76 collection and on the same level of the greatest Schubert and Beethoven String Quartets.
Not long ago it went the Haydn string quartets game on the Talk Classical. Was curious and I just checked the results and it was good to see the opposite of the above mentioned. So the op.20 No.2 finished on the shared 2nd spot and the op.20 No.3 as 10th. This result looks much better.


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## flamencosketches

Really enjoying this quartet. Sometimes I feel like Haydn's music has aged very, very well compared to other composers. This music is 250 years old but it still sounds fresh, like it belongs in our time. I'm glad that Haydn's music is becoming in vogue for contemporary string quartets to play. I still really love that cantabile movement. I'm listening now w/ score in hand. Still really want to hear the London Haydn Quartet....


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## sbmonty

I've enjoyed this quartet quite a bit. The reading around the significance of the Op. 20 set has been informative as well. 
The Minuet - Allegretto second movement sure reminds me of Brahms. I wonder if Brahms knew this quartet well?


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## Mandryka

According to Richard Wigmore's essay here

https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA67877

Brahms owned the autograph manuscripts of op 20 until he bequeathed them to the Viennese Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde


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## Eramire156

I've been remiss in listening to this weeks quartet, so today is my day to play catchup, just finished listening to the Lindsay, which I quite liked despite the white tone of one the violinist, but after awhile you get used to it, I also listened to the Schneider Quartet, and will listen to a couple more recording before the weeks out.


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## TurnaboutVox

StDior said:


> [...] Talk Classical Top 200 Recommended String Quartets List: Otherwise very great list with 13 Haydn String quartets on it, one from the op.20, but no op.20 No.2 and no.3 on the list.
> I hardly believed that. For me these two are the best Haydn String Quartets, slightly above the also genial op.76 collection and on the same level of the greatest Schubert and Beethoven String Quartets. [...]


Although I'm not taking sole responsibility for that omission in the "Top 200 TC String Quartets" thread, in my defence I didn't know the Op. 20 quartets at the time and was struggling to audition all the nominations sufficiently to familiarize myself with them.

There are quite a few more Haydn Quartets that might have made that list, I now realise.

I'll kick off my listening for this thread tomorrow with the Quatuor Mosaiques recording.

Apologies - I would have joined in earlier (I have been unavoidably detained in hospital these past few weeks) as the string quartet is at the very core of my interest in music and I have been listening to them for nearly 40 years now.


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## flamencosketches

@Mandryka, it's on you to now nominate a member to pick next week's quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I can't find Salomon or Mosaiques on my streaming service or on YouTube! What a bummer. Mandryka, or anyone else who's knowledgeable about recordings, is there a modern-instrument recording out there that emulates HIP-style performance practice? I've neglected the quartet for a couple days, the only other on my "must-hear" list is Tatrai.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I can't find Salomon or Mosaiques on my streaming service or on YouTube! What a bummer. Mandryka, or anyone else who's knowledgeable about recordings, is there a modern-instrument recording out there that emulates HIP-style performance practice? I've neglected the quartet for a couple days, the only other on my "must-hear" list is Tatrai.


There isn't really a HIP style as far as I can see. Mosaïques are very different from Salomon or London Haydn, and Festetics are different again. One which I thought was worth trying and HIP and may be available on your streaming platforms was The Buchberger Quartet. There's also Chiaroscuro to think about. When it first came out I enjoyed discovering it, but I haven't gone back to it - for no good reason. I just can't remember what they do with op 20/3, I've started to play it as I'm typing this and it seems rather fine.

Tatrai are intense and for that reason interesting to hear.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> @Mandryka, it's on you to now nominate a member to pick next week's quartet.


I nominate you.


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## StDior

TurnaboutVox said:


> Although I'm not taking sole responsibility for that omission in the "Top 200 TC String Quartets" thread, in my defence I didn't know the Op. 20 quartets at the time and was struggling to audition all the nominations sufficiently to familiarize myself with them.
> 
> There are quite a few more Haydn Quartets that might have made that list, I now realise.
> 
> I'll kick off my listening for this thread tomorrow with the Quatuor Mosaiques recording.
> 
> Apologies - I would have joined in earlier (I have been unavoidably detained in hospital these past few weeks) as the string quartet is at the very core of my interest in music and I have been listening to them for nearly 40 years now.


You should have no remorse for the missing ones. As I wrote it is a great list, I frequently use it myself. Of course there are holes (missing wonderful pieces), anomalies and surprises on each kind of such lists.
Telling the truth, I did know the op.20 no.2 & 3 earlier but with moderate affect. Also just recently I recognized what genial important masterpieces they are. And with my comment I just wanted to express how wonderful pieces and how underrated they are.
Do not be ill. Wish you good health. The Talk Classical Top Recommended Opera list is updated in every five year. Let's update the Top Recommended String Quartet list in 2024 at the 10 years annual of the original list.


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## Josquin13

Last weekend, I was listening to the Tetzlaff Quartet's recording of Schubert's String Quartet no. 15, which of course we'd covered the previous week, and suddenly realized that the Tetzlaff's had coupled Schubert's final SQ with none other than Haydn's String Quartet no. 3, Op. 20! What a surprising coincidence (unless Mandryka got his idea from the Tetzlaff's coupling?). I immediately looked for a review where a critic had taken up the task of comparing the two quartets, as a coupling (since I didn't have Tetzlaff's program notes), and found an excellent review by Ralph Moore at MusicWebInternational: which I thought might be of interest to the group:

"REVIEW
RECORDING OF THE MONTH

Franz SCHUBERT (1797 - 1828)
String Quartet No. 15 in G major, D887 (1826) [50:17]
Joseph HAYDN (1732-1809)
String Quartet in G minor Op. 20 No.3 [24:59]
Tetzlaff Quartet (Christian Tetzlaff (violin); Elisabeth Kufferath (violin); Hanna Weinmeister (viola); Tanja Tetzlaff (cello))
rec. September 2015, Sendesaal, Bremen
ONDINE ODE1293-2 [73:51]

Is there, I wonder, a greater string quartet than Schubert's D.887, Beethoven's notwithstanding? Certainly it is one of the most profound, moving and indeed disturbing works in that genre, rivalled only by the same composer's string quintet and characterised by an eternal paradox in its typically Schubertian endless melodic stream and its equally typical sense of impending death, doom and destruction. The finale must emerge as a Dance of Death, a startlingly brutal musical depiction of dissolution almost a hundred years before Stravinsky utilised that trope in "The Rite of Spring", a brave and desperate defiance of the inevitable masked by enforced jollity - and the Tetzlaff Quartet really nail the mood.

Their playing is swift and invariably tightly focused, never "prettified", sometimes raw, with sparing use of vibrato, and technically flawless execution of the frequent tremolos. The recorded sound is very detailed and more intimate than, say, the Alban Berg or Allegri Quartets; their broader acoustics match their grander, more overt manner, but where the Tetztlaff really excels is in its scrupulous and invariably unanimous application of dynamics, which greatly enhances the intensity of its playing. That attention to nuance is reinforced by their observation in the booklet notes regarding how the dynamic markings go "from triple piano with diminuendo to triple forte with crescendo". Those notes provide little factual information on the music itself, being a transcription of a conversation about its emotional hinterland and impact of this constantly questioning music. Mahler's wry aphorism comes to mind: "If a composer could say what he had to say in words he would not bother to say it in music" - although perhaps a review should be wary of smugly borrowing his bon mot given that the same principle could apply to reviewing.

The first movement is chilling and gripping, its grotesqueries fully realised. The Andante contains some of the most beautiful and unsettling music ever written, exhibiting wonderful control of pianissimi and concluding in almost serene and consolatory mode. The Scherzo is featherlight and delicate in the Mendelssohnian manner, the waltz-time Trio ideally elegant.

If Schubert's quartet represents some kind of apex in the form then there is an evident logic in including in the programme here a work which was seminal in its inception and establishment. However, there is also the programmatic rationale of establishing a thematic link between these two quartets. If Goethe's dictum is correct, that the string quartet is "a conversation between four intelligent people", then in the case of these two works all the participants are to some degree disordered, yet we undoubtedly hear four equal voices, each claiming conversational ascendancy in turn, such is the virtuosity and equilibrium of the Tetzlaffs' playing. Haydn's work is disturbing in a manner similar to that of Schubert's, in that the music evinces a frequent and shocking undercurrent of dissatisfaction and even anger, although it hardly achieves the same scorched emotiveness as Schubert's masterwork. This is wild, erratic and fragmented music by early Classical period standards; even the supposedly courtly Menuet is more melancholy and unsettled than "galant" and three of the movements conclude by simply tailing off in a piano muttering in a manner most unconventional and even unsatisfactory by the measure of the age. The Trio of the Scherzo is incongruously cheerful as if it hardly belongs in the quartet at all while the Adagio, exquisitely played here, provides another such interlude of unexpected serenity in an otherwise fitful and capricious work whose restlessness goes a long way towards justifying its kinship with D887. A final irony is that there is no evidence that this or any other string quartets were ever performed in Esterházy; it seems that Haydn wrote them out of an inner compulsion to exorcise his demons while marooned in that civilised but remote gilded cage.

Comparison with the esteemed Buchberger Quartet in the Haydn reveals that the Buchberger is more assertive and plays in a more overtly "con spirito" manner than the Tetzlaff, who are perhaps occasionally almost too refined but thereby bring out the subtleties of this extraordinary music; I would not let that count as a demerit, especially when the pairing here succeeds so triumphantly.

Ralph Moore"

Tomorrow, I may give the HIP Tetzlaff Quartet a listen out of curiosity, since its on YT: 




Here too is the Buchberger Quartet's performance, if anyone wants to hear them in comparison to the Tetzlaff Quartet: 




I've had an unusual week, so I didn't get a chance to listen to the quartet more than once, yet.

If anyone's interested, tomorrow I'll be choosing from the following 5 Op. 20 sets that I've got on my shelf:

On modern instruments:

--Hagen Quartett, DG (the Hagen's Op. 20 is one of my favorites).

















--Pellegrini Quartet, CPO hybrid SACD--Interestingly, this is a group that has recorded mostly modern & contemporary music. Therefore, I found it interesting that they chose Haydn's more experimental, seminal Op. 20 set to record for their first venture into the classical era on record. I expect they must have found something more modern about Haydn's Op. 20 set, which they strongly identified with:

https://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-string-quartets-op-20-mw0001403802
https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/5167

On period instruments:

--Chiaroscuro Quartet (this is another very good Op. 20 set):




https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Sun-Quartets-Op-Nos/dp/B01GVJ0DYG
https://bis.se/orchestras-ensembles/chiaroscuro-quartet/haydn-sun-quartets-op20-nos-1-3-vol-1
--Quatour Mosaiques: 



--Festetics Quartet: 




Unfortunately, my favorite period Haydn Quartets, the Schuppanzigh and Apponyi Quartets haven't recorded the Op. 20 set; although the Schuppanzighs did record the Op. 20, no. 2: 



 nor, on modern instruments, have the Takacs Quartet, Cuarteto Casals, or the Orlando/Parkanyi Quartet recorded the Op. 20s, either--among some of my other favorite groups in Haydn.

Historically, there's also the Pro Arte Quartet recording on EMI References--whose Haydn playing used to be highly regarded. Personally, I find that there are better quartets in Haydn today & during the digital era. Besides, we now know that violin slides are out of place in Haydn's music, & I can find the Pro Arte's slides a bit distracting, especially in the early Op. 20, no. 3. However, they're certainly worth hearing, and are not without their interpretative insights into this music: 




P.S. Since the number of our group seems to be expanding?, wouldn't it be best for us to come up with an ongoing list of everyone that wishes take part (which can be added to or subtracted from, as need be), so that each week a different person gets a turn to pick a new quartet for us to listen to. That way everyone will get a chance. Wouldn't that be fairer?

Plus, if anyone were to nominate me, I'd prefer not choose a quartet off the top of my head late in the week on a Friday or Saturday, but would much rather set aside some time in the previous week to sample and listen to a number quartets before choosing one. In other words, if I knew that my turn (or week) was coming up, I could plan accordingly, and probably pick more thoughtfully.

But if you want to keep things the way they are, that's okay with me, too. It's just a suggestion.


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## Mandryka

An "unusual week" sounds a bit menacing. Hope you're still standing, still smiling!

It's a shame that Pro Arte didn't record op 20/3

I'll be interested to know what you make of Festetics, there are some distinctive things there.

See if you can get hold of The Ulbrich Quartet, I thought it was a bit special. They recorded op 20/3 twice, arguably the better is on the one in the picture because of Clemens Dillner's noble cello playing, though I like both, Dillner in the third movement is magic it has to be said. If you want me to upload it say, or if you see it buy it, it's one of the _greats_! The group was composed of the first chairs of the Staatskapelle Dresden, which of course means that the members vary with the history of the orchestra.









The Auryn quartet may be worth exploring, I very much enjoyed their op 20/4, I haven't listened to their op 20/3.

I didn't enjoy Pellegrini, Tetzlaff seemed OK though. Here's what they have to say about it (but who? TQ=Tetzlaff Quartet, as if they were speaking in unison like a Greek chorus.) Hagen seemed OK too, though the sound quality (boomy cello in the 3rd movement) puts me off.



> Why have you chosen the String Quartet in G minor op. 20/3 by Joseph Haydn to go along with this really existential G major string quartet by Schubert?
> TQ: In this Haydn composition too there is a lot of battling between major and minor. And the quartet jumps around radically with the listener. Always when one thinks that now a normal, beautiful theme might come for a change, there are breaks, general rests, whispered phrases in pianissimo. It is very recitative, which comes close to Schubert. And in Haydn too I get the feeling of rage. A certain furious basic mood dominates and then is no longer there in the marvelously beautiful slow movement. But there are parallels in the inner turmoil and the transgressing of limits.
> TQ: And G major and G minor - a key that seems to be made for this. The Brahms G major/G minor sonata, the Schumann piano trio - G major is not entirely as affirmative as C major or D major. It is a more fragile key. When compared with Haydn's quartet, by the way, the formal dimension in Schubert is totally conservative. The phrases in Schubert are more regular. In Haydn the first phrase has five measures, and thereafter one cannot even keep count at all. Fragments are all we have in the first movement.
> It is very exclamatory, theatrical: stops, then unison inserts by the entire quartet. With what do you associate that; are they commentaries?
> TQ: Yes, it reminds me of operas or Bach's passions, where the choir shouts something or whispers to itself. Very theatrical. And the longer one plays it, the more one reaches the point that one speaks it instead of singing it.
> 
> So in the first movement he completely exceeds the normal form - and in the second movement?
> TQ: Here too the periodicity is out of whack. And then there is a trio in E flat major with a second part suddenly stopping on a half cadence - here too nothing about the form is right. It is imperative to have the trio get lost. And the minuet in forte, raging, stops in G major while "getting lost," and then it is gone. These are unheard-of gestures. This quartet has always fascinated all of us as a solitary instance in its work group. The slow movement too sings itself out really deeply. One does not find this so often in Haydn, even with all of his many ideas. So much space is given to the cello as the most singing instrument. This movement really holds its own against the very absurd stuff from the other three movements. Here Haydn creates an incredible balance.
> Singing - but nonetheless I find that there is a great fragility in this third movement ...
> TQ: I believe that depends very much on the interpretation. One can also present it as a grand cello cantilena, but I regard that too as fragile. This marvelously beautiful ornamentation, these sixteenths the cello is allowed to play, while the high strings merely keep the chorale or the chords going over it, have an element of very fantastic seeking about them. One can really present it in a different way in every concert. There is no norm here dictating where it should go. It is like reflecting on a thought or developing it.
> This seeking - I find that a question mark lingers in this piece even at the very conclusion - is that right?
> TQ: And the last movement is the portrait of a choleric who jumps from one thing to the next, also with the constant behavioral pattern of wild rage, astonishing in its brevity. The conclusion then suddenly comes in pianissimo in G major.
> TQ: And the audience as a rule sits there, irritated and thinking: What? And when are we going to get the concluding chord? Yes, the conclusion really very much has the character of a question.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> I nominate you.


Flamenco picked a few weeks back...we're starting to run out of routine contributors to choose from. Just a suggestion that you could take or leave - but perhaps we should head back to the 20th century after 3 weeks of Brahms, Schubert, and Haydn?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> Since the number of our group seems to be expanding?, wouldn't it be best for us to come up with an ongoing list of everyone that wishes take part (which can be added to or subtracted from, as need be), so that each week a different person gets a turn to pick a new quartet for us to listen to. That way everyone will get a chance. Wouldn't that be fairer?
> 
> Plus, if anyone were to nominate me, I'd prefer not choose a quartet off the top of my head late in the week on a Friday or Saturday, but would much rather set aside some time in the previous week to sample and listen to a number quartets before choosing one. In other words, if I knew that my turn (or week) was coming up, I could plan accordingly, and probably pick more thoughtfully.
> 
> But if you want to keep things the way they are, that's okay with me, too. It's just a suggestion.


Great suggestion; I would be on board with that. Any other thoughts on this method would be appreciated. Those who have not chosen yet but have participated recently or expressed interest in this thread include:

Eramire156
Josquin13
TurnAboutVox
Merl
StDior
Selby
Iota
Bulldog
jurianbal

If any of these people are following the thread, I ask that you chime in and indicate whether you'd be willing to choose a quartet down the road. Thanks!


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## flamencosketches

I'd be honored to pick again, but after this week I agree that we should find some way to implement Josquin's list idea. It would just be a matter of making the group more organized which may prove difficult. Oftentimes people will come in to make one post and not see the thread again for weeks, but still listen to the music. Does anyone know how to use the "groups" feature on the site...?

I will announce my choice in a few hours, there's a few I'm between. Meanwhile I would like to nominate @Josquin13 for next week, to give him ample time to pick a quartet. 

Finally I will listen to the Haydn op.20/3 again and post final thoughts shortly!


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## Selby

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Great suggestion; I would be on board with that. Any other thoughts on this method would be appreciated. Those who have not chosen yet but have participated recently or expressed interest in this thread include:
> 
> Eramire156
> Josquin13
> TurnAboutVox
> Merl
> StDior
> Selby
> Iota
> Bulldog
> jurianbal
> 
> If any of these people are following the thread, I ask that you chime in and indicate whether you'd be willing to choose a quartet down the road. Thanks!


I would be happy to make a nomination. It certainly doesn't have to be next week but when I'm up in the queue I would like to either spend time with Schumann's SQ#3 or Webern's 1905 SQ.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> I'd be honored to pick again, but after this week I agree that we should find some way to implement Josquin's list idea. It would just be a matter of making the group more organized which may prove difficult. Oftentimes people will come in to make one post and not see the thread again for weeks, but still listen to the music. Does anyone know how to use the "groups" feature on the site...?
> 
> I will announce my choice in a few hours, there's a few I'm between. Meanwhile I would like to nominate @Josquin13 for next week, to give him ample time to pick a quartet.
> 
> Finally I will listen to the Haydn op.20/3 again and post final thoughts shortly!


Sounds good flamenco. Now the groups feature is something I have not thought of, but which I think would really work well. However, just by a cursory scan in that section of the site, it seems like the groups are relatively neglected and don't get nearly as much traffic as the main forum. If anyone else thinks it would be a good idea to explore the group option, let me know; but I don't expect we'll be making that transition unless there's a majority consensus.

For me it was Buchberger yesterday for the Haydn (a good, strong performance on period instruments but lacking a bit in interpretive depth IMO), and today I'll round things out with the Tatrai on YouTube.


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## Eramire156

Today's listen was the Quatuor Mosaïques, I'll listen to another cD tonight, as far as groups goes, as con brio notes that part of the forum gets very little traffic, if we want others to join we should keep this thread going. Looking forward to next Quartet.


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## TurnaboutVox

Haydn Op. 20/3 in G Minor; Hob. III:33

I have had a few listens to recordings by:

Quatuor Mosaiques (Naive) on CD

Doric Quartet (Chandos)
Chiaroscuro Quartet (BIS), both on Spotify

and the Tatrai Quartet (Hungaroton) on YouTube.

It's quite a sombre work, certainly compared to some of its companions in Op.20 with a serious, often agitated (or even perhaps furious, as suggested in the Tetzlaff Quartet interview posted above by Mandryka) mood in the outer movements: there's a desolate little minuet and trio but the long Poco adagio is by contrast somewhat elegaic in tone, beautiful and very intricate - I tried my best to follow the score as I listened to the Mosaiques.

I had not really recognised the links between this work and the quartets of Schubert, but now that this has been suggested to me I can hear it, particularly to the great D.887 quartet. For me the links to early Beethoven are more obvious in the turmoil and conflict suggested by much of this quartet's material.

As to performances - the Quatuor Mosaiques are very distinctive here in their well-recorded HIP performances and I enjoyed them very much. I found myself enjoying the Chiaoscuro Quartet for a very different performance which seemed to me more 'polished' and smooth but quite convincing if less vibrant. 

I enjoyed the Tatrai Quartet quite a bit but the recording is older and this shows a bit, in my view. The Doric Quartet I was surprised to like least of the four, not least because I love some of their other discs, e.g. the two Walton Quartets which are played with great verve and integrity. I can't quite put my finger on it though: perhaps it's just that I found the Mosaiques and the Chiaroscuro ensembles so satisfying.


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## TurnaboutVox

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sounds good flamenco. Now the groups feature is something I have not thought of, but which I think would really work well. However, just by a cursory scan in that section of the site, it seems like the groups are relatively neglected and don't get nearly as much traffic as the main forum. If anyone else thinks it would be a good idea to explore the group option, let me know; but I don't expect we'll be making that transition unless there's a majority consensus.
> 
> For me it was Buchberger yesterday for the Haydn (a good, strong performance on period instruments but lacking a bit in interpretive depth IMO), and today I'll round things out with the Tatrai on YouTube.


I suspect that the groups gained a reputation for slightly scurrilous posting a few years ago when they were more popular and so many people tend to avoid going there often.

I think this thread will be just fine where it is.

P.S. I will be pleased to nominate quartets as the thread goes on, if asked.


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## flamencosketches

OK, boys and girls. Next week's "Weekly Quartet" will be...

Bedřich Smetana's *String Quartet No.1 in E minor, "From My Life"*

I've long been wanting to explore this work in further depth and will be taking the opportunity to.

Now, as for the Haydn, I'm really enjoying this work. It's definitely whet my appetite for more minor-key Haydn quartets. Probably my biggest impression would have to be the excellent cello writing. It's lyrical where it needs to be, rhythmic and angular when it needs to be, and just overall a very colorful part. Of course, he was pushing the envelope writing for the instrument such in his time, but that doesn't really matter Other than that, again, I really appreciate the slow movement. I don't have any particularly deep or interesting thoughts to share on the quartet other than this; I don't really hear anything extra-musical worth mentioning, nor do I know enough about the Haydn performance practice tradition to provide any insights. All I know is that any time I hear a Haydn quartet I am blown away by the color and inventiveness of the music. I think his music sounds quite fresh and modern in that respect. In a way his music has aged better than that of Mozart or possibly Beethoven. But that may be just me.

Haydn's quartets are not only interesting from a historical perspective, but they are living repertoire that is only just beginning to be explored in depth by modern quartets. That being said I'm kicking myself for not having listened to any old recordings... but are there any, even? I see the Pro Arte Quartet did not record it, when they were recording all those Haydn SQs in the '30s.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> OK, boys and girls. Next week's "Weekly Quartet" will be...
> 
> Bedřich Smetana's *String Quartet No.1 in E minor, "From My Life"*
> 
> I've long been wanting to explore this work in further depth and will be taking the opportunity to.
> 
> Now, as for the Haydn, I'm really enjoying this work. It's definitely whet my appetite for more minor-key Haydn quartets. Probably my biggest impression would have to be the excellent cello writing. It's lyrical where it needs to be, rhythmic and angular when it needs to be, and just overall a very colorful part. Of course, he was pushing the envelope writing for the instrument such in his time, but that doesn't really matter Other than that, again, I really appreciate the slow movement. I don't have any particularly deep or interesting thoughts to share on the quartet other than this; I don't really hear anything extra-musical worth mentioning, nor do I know enough about the Haydn performance practice tradition to provide any insights. All I know is that any time I hear a Haydn quartet I am blown away by the color and inventiveness of the music. I think his music sounds quite fresh and modern in that respect. In a way his music has aged better than that of Mozart or possibly Beethoven. But that may be just me.
> 
> Haydn's quartets are not only interesting from a historical perspective, but they are living repertoire that is only just beginning to be explored in depth by modern quartets. That being said I'm kicking myself for not having listened to any old recordings... but are there any, even? I see the Pro Arte Quartet did not record it, when they were recording all those Haydn SQs in the '30s.


Ooh, great choice! I know very little of Smetana's music, so that will be a great experience for me too. Final thoughts on Haydn...totally agree with what you wrote above. Just getting the chance to explore Op. 20 a bit this week (obviously mostly the G minor, but I also sampled a few of the others) gives me a richer appreciation of Haydn's innovation, and arguably mastery of the genre. Beethoven and Shostakovich may have written the largest, most variegated, and richest string quartet _cycles_; but in terms of sheer compositional genius and delight, Papa Haydn may have just been the greatest quartet-writer of them all. I have a feeling we'll be returning to him again in this activity down the road I saved my favorite performance for last - the Tatrai. May be the oldest recording of the work (in very early, fuzzy stereo), but a really captivating reading with lots of character. I'll "formally" introduce Smetana tomorrow and give all participants a chance to submit their final thoughts.


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## Eramire156

Yes a great choice, will listen to it later today, but I want to give the Haydn another listen as well, as chance would have it I has ordered the smetana played by the smetana quartet from hmv should arrive from Japan this week. Happy listening and be well.


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## sbmonty

I purchased this a few years ago. Recommendable if you're interested in exploring Haydn's String Quartets in more depth. The Op. 20/3 was an inspired choice. 
Thanks!


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## sbmonty

The Smetana string quartet, No. 1 in E minor "From My Life" is another outstanding choice. These are the recordings I own and will begin listening later today, while awaiting other recommendations and thoughts.


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## Josquin13

Sorry, I'm lagging a bit behind this week.

Mandryka writes,

"An "unusual week" sounds a bit menacing. Hope you're still standing, still smiling!

It's a shame that Pro Arte didn't record op 20/3

I'll be interested to know what you make of Festetics, there are some distinctive things there.

See if you can get hold of The Ulbrich Quartet, I thought it was a bit special. They recorded op 20/3 twice, arguably the better is on the one in the picture because of Clemens Dillner's noble cello playing, though I like both, Dillner in the third movement is magic it has to be said. If you want me to upload it say, or if you see it buy it, it's one of the greats! The group was composed of the first chairs of the Staatskapelle Dresden, which of course means that the members vary with the history of the orchestra."

Yes, I'm still standing, thanks for asking. I used the word "unusual" because I'm presently doing all the shopping, etc., for two 89 year olds, to help protect them from COVID-19. One of whom is my mother. So I'm very worried that if I catch it, I'll transmit it to them. I've been wearing latex gloves for weeks now (& strategically using hand sanitizer on the gloves, like a lab technician), and am being hyper careful. Even so, part of this is going to be plain luck. My cousin's daughter teaches English in Wuhan, and she hasn't caught it yet, so that's kind of reassuring. But then, she only goes out to shop for food and is quarantined at home the rest of the time. And she has a mask. (I'm concerned that the virus is transmitted more easily through the 'air' than the microbiologists currently realize, as opposed to something that you mostly catch from touching surfaces & then your mouth & nose.)

I did listen to the Ulbrich-Quartett play Op. 20, no. 3, yesterday, and enjoyed it very much, thanks. There's an LP recording of it on You Tube (which I'm assuming is the Eurodisc LP). I'm very surprised that I'd never heard of a quartet comprised of principals from my favorite orchestra in the world, the Staatskapelle Dresden, & particularly one stemming back to the pre-Sinopoli days, when the Staatskapelle was such a great orchestra. The players exhibit all the hallmarks of Dresden principals--beauty of sound, refinement, depth of interpretation, and a flawless intonation (which was a joy to hear in Haydn, and particularly this quartet). Thanks for turning me on to this group. I don't know how they slipped through the cracks, but I plan to buy their Haydn recordings now. You said that they'd recorded the Op. 20, no. 3 twice? I see recordings available on Eterna and Denon. The Denon set is affordable, so I'll probably opt for that. I assume that that's the set I listened to on LP, via You Tube? Do you know if the Denon CDs are the same recordings as the Eurodisc LPs?

Here's the You Tube link, if anyone's interested in hearing the Ulbrich-Quartett play this quartet. I agree with Mandryka that it's a "special" recording (the Op. 20/3 quartet starts at about 7:45 into the You Tube clip):






Out of curiosity, I then listened to the Festetics Quartet. It was shocking how different they make this music sound on period instruments. It barely even sounded like the same quartet. In contrast to the Ulbrichs, the Festetics performance was craggy and rustic sounding. They weren't afraid to make some ugly, expressive sounds. It all left me wondering who was the real Haydn?

Although I'd imagine that I'd like the Schuppanzigh Quartet more in this music, if they'd recorded the Op. 20 no.3 quartet, since I preferred their Op. 20, no. 2 to the Festetics'. But it's good to have the Festetics recording in my collection as an alternative view, since it's a different interpretation. It really highlights the value of hearing this music played on grittier sounding period strings: 



. Now I'm going to have to take Chiaroscuro's Op. 20/3 off my shelf.

Thanks again, for the Ulbrich-Quartett recommendation.

P.S. Do you all know about the potential good of taking a combination of Quercetin and zinc to combat COVID-19? I was speaking with a doctor who is head of infectious disease at a hospital out west and he thought it was "a very good idea". I first heard about this 'combo' from the writings of a microbiologist in Montreal, who had found it helpful in treating sufferers with Ebola virus. What the Quercetin does is that it makes our cells more permeable to zinc, which helps to fight the virus. I've seen actual medical charts on the internet that show how in high doses the Quercetin & zinc (in normal doses) can eradicate certain viruses, but it has to be high doses of Quercetin in order to do so. The ID doctor recommended that my mother take 400mg twice a day for now. I'm taking 1000mg once a day. If I get sick, those dosages will go up. I've read that the megadoses for Ebola sufferers range between 3000-7000mg a day, but of course that's a life and death situation. The ID doctor also cautioned me against taking the herb Black Elderberry, because he thought it worked "too well", and might send my immune system into overdrive, prompting it to kill everything--both good & bad bacteria, and thereby weakening my body to fight COVID-19, like an elderly person. So, I'm only taking it once every few days.

Stay well, and take care, everyone.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 in E minor "From My Life"*

Time for another week of quartet-listening, folks, and this time it's the debut quartet from a Romantic composer who one would think would receive much more recognition than he actually does, but much of whose music seems sadly neglected from the canon. Bedrich Smetana is commonly recognized as a pivotal founding figure of the Nationalist movement, which would go on to greatly influence the works of his countrymen Dvorak and Janacek among others. This quartet continues the great tradition of the genre as the most personal vehicle for musical outpourings. As evidenced from the composer-sanctioned nickname, the work is a semi-autobiographical exploration of Smetana's state of mind. Like Beethoven, the one who pioneered that concept of the quartet, Smetana was afflicted with deafness - the worst thing that could happen to a composer. And like Beethoven, he dealt with this inevitable impairment by thrusting himself into his work. In fact, his most productive period came in the final part of his life when he was totally deaf. I have not heard this quartet before, but I expect it will be a very interesting experience as we consider both musical and extramusical elements. Here is the Wikipedia article, which features a little background and listening guide. It may also be beneficial to read up a bit on Smetana's life and perhaps get a taste of the events that he references in his musical "autobiography".

sbmonty lists three recordings in his post above mine, which all look like good ones to check out. Any others that anyone has or you think should be essential listening for this quartet? It actually looks like most major ensembles (Emerson, Lindsay, ABQ, Takacs, etc.) have covered this one, but maybe I'll go for some of the more obscure recordings this week. I would think that the early 1953 recording by the *Smetana Quartet* would be required listening for reasons I shouldn't have to explain! I also see that there is an orchestral transcription performed by Szell/Cleveland, which might be an interesting thing to look into.


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## Eramire156

*Last weeks and this weeks quartet for the thread*

*Franz Joseph Haydn 
String Quartet op.20 no.3









Tetzlaff Quartet *

and for this week quartet

*Bedrich Smetana 
String Quartet no.1









Artis Quartett*


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for providing the introduction, ACB. I'm beginning my first listen of the week...:










This is the only recording that I have. The Stamitz Quartet, on Brilliant. I don't know much about them but they are a Czech ensemble and they sound pretty good to me.

My first thoughts are that this is a work of great drama, but also great structure and proportionality. I don't know Smetana's work very well but this piece suggests that he was quite the master craftsman. It sounds, especially in the second movement Polka, as if Smetana is drawing from folk themes and rhythms, using them to craft a dramatic tapestry-in this sense, I am reminded a bit of Mahler, another composer who would employ similar techniques. Both composers hail from Bohemia, but outside of that I'm not aware of any shared influence. But Smetana's creation is more economical than anything of Mahler's, and one can't help but invoke the inevitable reference to Beethoven. Still, I can hear a totally unique voice. This quartet will prove to anyone that there's more to Smetana than the nationalism of Má vlast, etc.

Excited to get more into this work over the week. I like what I'm hearing so far.


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## Mandryka

I don’t think I’ve ever heard this knowingly, maybe in a concert but I’m not sure. And I’m kind of curious because of the Tinnitus backstory.

The Smetana Quartet - I mean the ensemble of musicians - are one of my favourite quartets.


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## Josquin13

Me too. The Smetana Quartet recorded their namesake's two string quartets three times during their long career. The first recording came in the early 1950s & was monaural, the second was in 1962 for Supraphon, and the third was made in 1976 for the joint Denon/Supraphon label. Both the 1962 & 1976 recordings are on You Tube:

--Smetana Quartet, 1962: 



--Smetana Quartet, 1976 (late in their career): 




Other idiomatic Czech quartets in this music are the Panocha, Talich, and Janacek Quartets, who are also on YT (I've not heard the Stamitz Quartet):

--Panocha Quartet: 




--Talich Quartet: 




--Janacek Quartet: 




The more youthful Zemlinsky Quartet is also good: 




Other quartets that might be of interest to people:

Jerusalem Quartet: 



Paval Haas Quartet: 




Smetana's extreme tinnitus, which is connected to the composing of his 1st quartet, is thought to stem from his having contracted syphilis.


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## flamencosketches

It's always syphilis...


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## sbmonty

flamencosketches said:


> It's always syphilis...


Sometimes it was the dropsy's


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've listened to the quartet twice already, and can give some of my impressions. However, I don't really have any big, profound thoughts about this one - it's just a lovely work! Nice counterpoint, compact structures, beautiful melodies...not much to complain about here. Honestly I haven't really been paying attention to the autobiographical elements because such extramusical concerns can sometimes detract from the music for me. I especially like the dark, rhapsodic first movement theme given by the viola. The polka is delightful; conveying an innocent, carefree spirit. The slow movement is actually the movement I'm having the most trouble with - it's very stuttering, with not much flow, but perhaps that's the point. Then the finale, which erupts into joy with rousing dance-like music. Of course here we have the most egregious programmatic element with that jarring halt about 3/4 through and the "tinnitus" in the violin. Not sure whether that comes across as convincing or not. Anyway, I can't say the work is blowing me away, but I have very few reservations about it and am liking what I'm hearing so far. I've heard the Takacs (nothing to write home about IMO) and Jerusalem (the one with the creepy cover), which was a much more idiomatic and vigorous performance. Smetana and Janacek Quartets, possibly Stamitz, are on my must-listen list for the rest of the week.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Anyone else listening this week?


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## Eramire156

I've listened so far to two recordings the Hollywood String Quartet and the Vegh, and will listen to another recording later today.


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## sbmonty

I've listened to the Jerusalem and Pavel Haas Quartets recordings. I agree, it is a lovely work. Filled with great melodies. I'm struck by how much it reminds me of Dvorak's compositions at times. The melody near the beginning of the second movement sounded so much like the initial melody of Dvorak's 12th string quartet, I almost thought Dvorak was paying homage to Smetana, but I didn't see any reference on Wiki. I then listened to Ma Vlast for the first time. Same resemblance to Dvorak for me. I assume much of the similarity is due to the incorporation of Slavonic folk songs? 
A lovely quartet though. I'm sure I'll revisit it frequently. Pavel Haas has been my favourite of the three recordings I have listened to so far. A very rich sound.


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## Eramire156

Currently listening to the 1953 recording of the Smetana by the Smetana, besides the three studio recordings, there are three live recordings, from the 1950swhile on tour in Scandinavia, from London June 1965 (BBC Legends) and a DVD performance. So far the Smatana's performance is favorite, they found the humor in the polka, which neither the Hollywood or the Vegh managed to find, I'm still waiting on the Smetanas Denon recording which I ordered from Hmv Japan perhaps tomorrow.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've slacked off a bit on this one, but not because I don't like the work - on the contrary I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it's not as compositionally complex as some of the others we've done, so I've felt no need to listen more to clarify details, etc. However I will at least try the Smetana Quartet. Josquin13, have you thought about which quartet you'd like to choose for next week?


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've slacked off a bit on this one, but not because I don't like the work - on the contrary I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it's not as compositionally complex as some of the others we've done, so I've felt no need to listen more to clarify details, etc. However I will at least try the Smetana Quartet. Josquin13, have you thought about which quartet you'd like to choose for next week?


I've only listened to it twice this week. I wouldn't describe it as any less complex than any of the others we've done, I just haven't been in the mood for string quartets (or really any chamber music) this week for one reason or another. I'll try and give it a few more listens later today and tomorrow.


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## Bwv 1080

Lost track of this thread after the Britten qt, got too busy w work(good problem given the circumstances). Smetana is a composer I have not listened to much. Its a well done work (settled on Takacs rec) , not sure if I will listen to it again after this week


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## Eramire156

Bwv 1080 said:


> Lost track of this thread after the Britten qt, got too busy w work(good problem given the circumstances). Smetana is a composer I have not listened to much. Its a well done work (settled on Takacs rec) , not sure if I will listen to it again after this week


Welcome back. I'm currently listening to the Smetana Quartet's studio recording from 1976, it grabs you doesn't let go. Highly recommended.


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## Josquin13

sbmonty writes, "I'm struck by how much it reminds me of Dvorak's compositions at times. The melody near the beginning of the second movement sounded so much like the initial melody of Dvorak's 12th string quartet, I almost thought Dvorak was paying homage to Smetana, but I didn't see any reference on Wiki."

I agree. Did you know that Dvorak played the viola part in the first private performance of this quartet in 1878? (So I don't think it's a coincidence.)

I've been listening to the Panocha Quartet (although I own the Smetana Quartet's 1962 Supraphon & 1976 Denon recordings). But I'll share my thoughts tomorrow, since I want to listen to it one more time.

Allegro Con Brio writes, "Josquin13, have you thought about which quartet you'd like to choose for next week?"

Yes, I've currently narrowed it down to three quartets--Arriaga's String Quartet No. 3, Faure's Op. 121, and Shostakovich's 4th String Quartet, which has long been a favorite of mine. I've give y'all my choice tomorrow.


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## flamencosketches

Josquin13 said:


> sbmonty writes, "I'm struck by how much it reminds me of Dvorak's compositions at times. The melody near the beginning of the second movement sounded so much like the initial melody of Dvorak's 12th string quartet, I almost thought Dvorak was paying homage to Smetana, but I didn't see any reference on Wiki."
> 
> I agree. Did you know that Dvorak played the viola part in the first private performance of this quartet in 1878? (So I don't think it's a coincidence.)
> 
> I've been listening to the Panocha Quartet (although I own the Smetana Quartet's 1962 Supraphon & 1976 Denon recordings). But I'll share my thoughts tomorrow, since I want to listen to it one more time.
> 
> Allegro Con Brio writes, "Josquin13, have you thought about which quartet you'd like to choose for next week?"
> 
> Yes, I've currently narrowed it down to three quartets--Arriaga's String Quartet No. 3, Faure's Op. 121, and Shostakovich's 4th String Quartet, which has long been a favorite of mine. I've give y'all my choice tomorrow.


I didn't know that about Dvorak, that's an amazing connection. I want to listen once again as well.

Those all sound like great choices. I'll try and make it a point to be a more active participant next week.


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## sbmonty

I feel like getting a head start on next week. I'm going to listen to Shostakovich and Fauré today. I had not heard of Arriaga. He died so young. Just days before his 20th birthday. If I get time, I'll listen to that too.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I finished things today with the Smetana Quartet recording from 1953 (the only one of their versions available for streaming). Good mono sound and even better performance - idiomatic, soulful, and it held my attention in every bar. One thing I didn't know about this ensemble was that Vaclav Neumann, the somewhat obscure Czech conductor (who I know through his fantastic Dvorak symphony cycle with the Czech Phil), was the violist. Apparently, they also performed everything by memory, which may account for the sense of spontaneity and expressiveness I hear in their playing. In their hands the third movement sounded especially like something from late Beethoven. There's something about Slavic culture - their folk music, their performance style, their composers...that really appeals to me. It seems like a very joyful and fun-loving culture. They have a very rich musical legacy, as evidenced not only by their wealth of great composers but also their conductors (Kubelik, Talich, Kertesz, Ancerl). A wonderful listen this week for sure.

Josquin, any of those choices would be perfect. Arriaga would certainly be a creative, outside-the-box pick; while you can never go wrong with Faure. And of course, Shosty is a natural choice as well - his 4th quartet is a favorite of mine too.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I finished things today with the Smetana Quartet recording from 1953 (the only one of their versions available for streaming). Good mono sound and even better performance - idiomatic, soulful, and it held my attention in every bar. One thing I didn't know about this ensemble was that Vaclav Neumann, the somewhat obscure Czech conductor (who I know through his fantastic Dvorak symphony cycle with the Czech Phil), was the violist. Apparently, they also performed everything by memory, which may account for the sense of spontaneity and expressiveness I hear in their playing. In their hands the third movement sounded especially like something from late Beethoven. There's something about Slavic culture - their folk music, their performance style, their composers...that really appeals to me. It seems like a very joyful and fun-loving culture. They have a very rich musical legacy, as evidenced not only by their wealth of great composers but also their conductors (Kubelik, Talich, Kertesz, Ancerl). A wonderful listen this week for sure.
> 
> Josquin, any of those choices would be perfect. Arriaga would certainly be a creative, outside-the-box pick; while you can never go wrong with Faure. And of course, Shosty is a natural choice as well - his 4th quartet is a favorite of mine too.


I would agree about Slavic culture. From an outside perspective it looks like an awesome thing to be a part of, and I'm sure Smetana would have concurred.

I suppose the Beethoven comparisons are inevitable, especially considering the work was largely a response to the onset of deafness. I found the slow movement more immediately accessible than any of the late Beethoven quartets, but I know what you mean; Smetana utilized a similarly tight-knit manner of developing his themes, and the music seemed to get across a deep pathos.

I think this is a great quartet, and I really ought to explore more of Smetana from here. All I have of his (outside of the quartets) is the famous Má vlast, a recording by Paavo Berglund & the Staatskapelle Dresden. I love both conductor and orchestra, but I feel like they may be a mismatch for the music, and I never really got into the recording. But I will have to give it another chance.

Re: next week's quartet, I would be most excited for the Shostakovich, as I'm going through a strong phase with his music lately. But any of the three would be a worthy choice.

PS. Does the first movement remind anyone else of Sibelius? Not sure why, but I got a strong impression of that on my last listen earlier today...


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## Josquin13

Flamencosketches writes, "I think this is a great quartet, and I really ought to explore more of Smetana from here. All I have of his (outside of the quartets) is the famous Má vlast, a recording by Paavo Berglund & the Staatskapelle Dresden. I love both conductor and orchestra, but I feel like they may be a mismatch for the music, and I never really got into the recording."

I like the Berglund/Staatskapelle Dresden recording--mainly because the orchestra plays so great & the EMI sound quality is excellent, but I agree that Rafael Kubelik or one of the other Czech conductors, like Karel Ancerl, are probably more idiomatic in this music, especially with a Czech orchestra. Kubelik recorded it several times, and I'm not sure which is his best performance. I have a recording that he made with the Boston Symphony Orchestra on DG, and like it. As a conductor, he's long been recognized for having a special affinity for Má vlast. But Ancerl, who I've not heard, might be even better. There's also Vaclav Neumann (and historically, Vaclav Talich).

I listened to both Smetana Quartets yesterday, Nos. 1 & 2, and decided that the 1st quartet has the greater depth and substance. It's a remarkable string quartet. Thanks for recommending it.

Okay, I've decided to pick Dmitri Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 4 for this coming week. Here's a good written introduction to the 4th, drawn from a superb guide to all 15 of Shostakovich's string quartets: http://www.quartets.de/compositions/ssq04.html. It gives some interesting background information about the history of the work, which should make for a richer listening experience.

--I happen to like the recording by the St.Petersburg Quartet, on Hyperion, but unfortunately I can't find it on You Tube: https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dw.asp?dc=W3400_67154.

--Among other digital era recordings, I've also liked the Danel Quartet--from their complete cycle on Fuga Libera (& later reissued by Alpha): 



.

But I also treasure the older recordings by the Borodin Quartet (in their earlier lineups, on Chandos--1960s, and later for EMI--His Master's Voice/Melodiya--1970s, & reissued in the 1980s by EMI), and the Fitzwilliam Quartet (on Decca), who were friends with Shostakovich, and premiered his last three string quartets.

--Borodin Quartet (1967--the original line up: Rostislav Dubinsky, Yaroslav Alexandrov, Dmitry Shebalin, & Valentin Berlinsky): 




--Fitzwilliam Quartet: 




Historically, there's also the famous Beethoven Quartet, who gave the premieres of most of these quartets, I believe, including the 4th: 




But these are by no means the only worthwhile recordings. There are others, too--such as by the Shostakovich Quartet, Taneyev Quartet, and the Rasumowsky Quartet--which I don't know; along with the cycles by the Emerson, Brodsky, Pacifica, and Mandelring Quartets.

There's also a recent recording from the current line up of the Borodin Quartet, which I've not heard, but it's on You Tube: 




& I've not heard the Jerusalem Quartet's recording, either, which is likewise posted on You Tube: 




I hope that people find I've made a good choice...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Awesome! Can't wait to hear thoughts on this one and spend some deep listening time with it...I think Shostakovich rewards repeated listening like few other composers. Official introduction coming tomorrow...

02/23-03/01: *Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14* (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: *Britten - String Quartet No. 3* (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: *Brahms - String Quartet No. 1* (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: *Schubert - String Quartet No. 15* (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: *Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3* (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: *Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"* (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: *Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4* (Josquin13)


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## EdwardBast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Awesome! Can't wait to hear thoughts on this one and spend some deep listening time with it...I think Shostakovich rewards repeated listening like few other composers. Official introduction coming tomorrow...
> 
> 02/23-03/01: *Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14* (Vicente)
> 03/01-03/08: *Britten - String Quartet No. 3* (flamencosketches)
> 03/08-03/15: *Brahms - String Quartet No. 1* (Allegro Con Brio)
> 03/15-03/22: *Schubert - String Quartet No. 15* (Enthusiast)
> 03/22-03/29: *Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3* (Mandryka)
> 03/29-04/05: *Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"* (flamencosketches)
> 04/05-04/12: *Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4* (Josquin13)


Yes, Shostakovich's 4th is wonderful. I'm getting out my score and a performance by the Borodin Quartet in anticipation.


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## flamencosketches

Glad everyone seems to have liked the Smetana. I think it's a great quartet.

Awesome choice with the Shostakovich, Josquin. This coincides with my decision (earlier today) to finally begin a serious exploration of Shostakovich's string quartets. There are a handful of them that I know very well, but the 4th is not one of them. I'll be looking forward to spending the week with it.

I have a couple of recordings: the Pacifica Quartet, a recent recording from an American ensemble; and an old mono recording from the Beethoven Quartet, who have direct personal ties to the composer. Additionally I will have to check out one of the other recordings you've provided links to. 

Josquin, it's on you to nominate a poster to choose the quartet for next week, so just let us know in the thread when you've decided on who. 

PS. Hard to believe we're on our 7th week already. Wow.


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## Eramire156

*DSCH for breakfast*

Another great choice, I've not listened to four in quite some time

*Dmitri Shostakovich 
String Quartet no.4 in D major, op.83









Quatuor Danel *

As far the Smetana Quartet "From my life", goes, it would be hard to beat the Smetana's Denon or any of their recordings of the Smetana quartet, though I wouldn't want to be without the Hollywood Quartets version, their wonderful sense of rhythm and attack, only in the polka did they falter, not finding the humor in the second movement. Recordings listened to:

*Artis Quartett
Cleveland Quartet 
Smetana Quartet (1953)
Hollywood Quartet 
Vegh Quartet
Smetana Quartet (1976)*


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've slacked off a bit on this one, but not because I don't like the work - on the contrary I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it's not as compositionally complex as some of the others we've done, so I've felt no need to listen more to clarify details, etc. However I will at least try the Smetana Quartet. Josquin13, have you thought about which quartet you'd like to choose for next week?


I guess that goes for me, too: a lovely work (especially the slow movement) but one that seems to give up its secrets and do its thing without much work from the listener.


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## sbmonty

Shostakovich No. 4. Another excellent choice. I started with the Fitzwilliam String Quartet and the Pacifica String Quartet, as they are the two sets I own. I have heard good reviews of the Mandelring Quartet. I'll stream that later today.

Josquin13 already recommended this site: http://www.quartets.de/compositions/ssq04.html
It is a fantastic resource.

A few years back, I read a book authoured by Wendy Lessing, "Music for Silenced Voices: Shostakovich and His Fifteen Quartets". It focuses on the 15 quartets in the context of Shostakovich's complicated personal and professional life. I read the chapter on a particular quartet, while listening to recordings. Flamencosketches mentioned he/she is interested in exploring these works in depth. You may enjoy this book. I think I may reread it over the next few weeks.


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## Iota

Eramire156 said:


> *Dmitri Shostakovich
> String Quartet no.4 in D major, op.83*


Coincidentally I was listening to the Quartet No.4 in the very capable hands of the Pacifica a couple of days ago (I also have the Shostakovich Quartet on Regis).

So chipping in off the top off my head, I'd say in a way I find it fairly muted in terms of character, despite its somewhat intense opening flourish, and appearance of his Rossini William Tell fetish in the 3rd movement. Much of it seems speculative rather demonstrative. The first four minutes or so of the last movement for example, the music just seems to mutter slightly uncertainly to itself about this and that, before any signs of rousing itself, and even when it does it doesn't really get far, and then ends like a dripping tap running out of energy. (The muted ending a tenuous connection with the Haydn Op.20/3 that was discussed earlier perhaps.)

Folky at times, I wondered if I feel hints of the Fifth Symphony coda in last movement here (though that maybe a rather wild thought I should double check). Anyway, despite its reserved character, the tension doesn't flag for a moment, there are moments of inspired writing and affecting lyrical warmth (2nd movt e.g) throughout and like most Shostakovich quartets it has endless things to recommend it.


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## Simplicissimus

I am going to jump into these interesting string quartet discussions, starting now with Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 4 in D Major, Op. 83. I'm not particularly expert on string quartets, but it is a form I have enjoyed for many years.

Thanks, Josquin13, for the link to quartets.de. That site is new to me and I found the background on the current piece well done and useful. I'm sure I'll be reading a lot more on that site in the future.

I have listened once through to the only CD recording of this quartet that I own: Borodin Quartet, recorded on June 17, 1962 at the Tchaikovsky Conservatory in Moscow by the Mercury Living Presence team, now out as disc 53 of the Mercury Living Presence Vol. 3 box set. The program notes explain, "This album was made during the first recording sessions ever held in the Soviet Union by non-Soviet technicians and musical staff, using equipment transported from the US for this purpose." The original 3-track 35mm magnetic film master was lost and this CD was remastered from a 2-track magnetic tape mix-down done back then by Wilma Cozart. The sound quality on my system is excellent. Photos of the CD sleeve front and back (front reproducing original album art) are below.

I don't want to jump the gun on the discussion, so I'll leave it here for now and listen to the piece a couple more times. I'm enjoying and admiring it very much.


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## Eramire156

*DSCH quartet no.4 video*

Jerusalem Quartet recorded in Alice Tully Hall on March 19, 2013.

[video]https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/2013-shostakovich-string-quartet-cycle/shostakovich-quartet-no-4-in-d-major-for-strings-op-83/[/video]


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## flamencosketches

seitzpf said:


> I am going to jump into these interesting string quartet discussions, starting now with Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 4 in D Major, Op. 83. I'm not particularly expert on string quartets, but it is a form I have enjoyed for many years.
> 
> Thanks, Josquin13, for the link to quartets.de. That site is new to me and I found the background on the current piece well done and useful. I'm sure I'll be reading a lot more on that site in the future.
> 
> I have listened once through to the only CD recording of this quartet that I own: Borodin Quartet, recorded on June 17, 1962 at the Tchaikovsky Conservatory in Moscow by the Mercury Living Presence team, now out as disc 53 of the Mercury Living Presence Vol. 3 box set. The program notes explain, "This album was made during the first recording sessions ever held in the Soviet Union by non-Soviet technicians and musical staff, using equipment transported from the US for this purpose." The original 3-track 35mm magnetic film master was lost and this CD was remastered from a 2-track magnetic tape mix-down done back then by Wilma Cozart. The sound quality on my system is excellent. Photos of the CD sleeve front and back (front reproducing original album art) are below.
> 
> I don't want to jump the gun on the discussion, so I'll leave it here for now and listen to the piece a couple more times. I'm enjoying and admiring it very much.
> 
> View attachment 133108
> 
> View attachment 133109


Very interesting, I did not know the Borodins recorded for Mercury. I want to check out their old mono cycle, on Chandos. Anyone familiar with it?


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4*

Looks like there's a good deal of interest and excitement for this one, so let's get going shall we? Shosty wrote this quartet in 1949, and like all of his quartets, it is a very personal, introspective work; channelling the music that he was not allowed to write for public into the most private genre of all. Of course, it's a common thought that Shostakovich worked all sorts of codes and hidden protests against the Soviet regime into his music, and though this indeed may be true, I'm not really a fan of searching for them. This music is great enough as it is; why read more into it than we need to? That said, we can't totally ignore that element, and it may make for some interesting discussion points this week. It's also impossible not to mention that during the time of its composition, he had been writing nothing but propaganda and film scores for quite a while, making this totally abstract piece of music more fascinating.

I would say the first thing that everyone participating this week needs to know is that there is a 50-minute lecture available on this quartet! Yes, Joshua Weilerstein has recorded an amazing in-depth analysis of the work on his incredible Sticky Notes podcast, and for those who really want to take the deep dive into the work, this might be a great thing to consider listening to. In the podcast, Weilerstein focuses on how the composer's relationship with the Soviet "culture guardians" affected his artistic outlook, and how he worked Jewish themes into the quartet (as he so often did), all the while breaking it down movement-by-movement. Then, there is the wonderful website that Josquin13 shared (which I was totally unaware of) that has a thorough analysis of all 15 quartets - I particularly like their article on how to best listen to the quartets. The Wikipedia article is so microscopic and unhelpful that I won't even link to it.

I love Shostakovich as much as the next person, but I have found his quartets somewhat of a difficult code to crack. I often found them quite esoteric, full of overwhelming darkness and jagged edges. Listening to Weilerstein's podcasts (he also has one on the 3rd quartet) helped me to understand more of what Shostakovich was going for, and I now believe that his body of work in the genre is second only to Beethoven in terms of profundity and musical richness. I haven't heard close to all of them, but my interest has definitely been piqued, and I will be spending some quality listening time with all of these quartets very soon.

Several recordings have already been mentioned, and I'll be checking most of them out. Right now I'm starting with the Borodin from their complete cycle on Decca, the natural choice as they appear to be the ensemble that has recorded the most Shostakovich and has the most intimate relationship with his music.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Several recordings have already been mentioned, and I'll be checking most of them out. Right now I'm starting with the Borodin from their complete cycle on Decca, the natural choice as they appear to be the ensemble that has recorded the most Shostakovich and has the most intimate relationship with his music.


Agreed. I think I'm going to get their Melodiya cycle, perhaps even this week, as an alternative to the (great) Pacifica Quartet cycle that I have and love. I didn't realize how cheap the Melodiya set was.


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## TurnaboutVox

*Smetana String Quartet No. 1 in E minor (1876) "From my life"*

I listened to:

The Medici String Quartet (Nimbus, 1987) - CD

Streaming:
The Pavel Haas Quartet (Supraphon, 2015)
Quartetto Energie Nove (Dynamic, 2018)
Talich Quartet (Calliope, 2004)
Panocha Quartet (Supraphon, 1999)

To be slightly contrary, this is not a work that I have ever particularly enjoyed despite its fame. Whether this is because the only recorded performance I have ever owned seems a bit disjointed, especially in the slow movement and the finale, I have never quite got into it.

After digging out and listening to my 1987 CD of the Medici Quartet I therefore decided to audition a number of more recent releases (above). I liked them all, but thought that the group who illuminated the work most for me was the Talich Quartet, something of a favourite group of mine in other repertoire. Their performance is marvellously poised and searching. I thought the Pavel Haas also very good but preferred the lucidity and 'flow' conveyed by the Talich group in what can seem quite an awkward work (in places).

The (unknown to me) Quartetto Energie Nove gave a straightforward and musical account of the quartet and what impressed particularly was their very 'tight' ensemble sound. I liked their disc a great deal too.

I think in fairness to Smetana's string quartets I should probably buy one of these three recordings for my collection! Thanks for suggesting the work and encouraging me to revisit it.


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## flamencosketches

On first listen, I found it to be interesting music. The first movement is quite unique, with its long drones and vaguely folk-like themes dancing over them. The second movement was more lyrical and with some interesting counterpoint, some good violin and cello interplay. I spaced out a little bit during the two final movements but I found the finale to be interesting, quite rhapsodic. I can tell right away that it's going to be an interesting work. 

Maybe someone can help me with this—I have two recordings in my library, the Pacifica Quartet (which I just listened to) & the Beethoven Quartet, as part of the "Bach Guild Big Shostakovich Box". The third movement of the former is about four minutes, while the third movement of the latter is over 12. The other movements are roughly equivalent in length, or at least more so. What gives? I'll listen to the Beethoven Qt. recording soon enough and find out, I guess, but I wonder if anyone knows what this is about.


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## Bwv 1080

Been listening / watching the score video with a nice performance from the Fitzwilliam Quartet. Familiar with most of the later SQs, but have not heard this one. Like the modal inflections in the first movement, can hear some of this in some Schnittke passages. Also appreciate the lack of the DSCH signature, which I think he overused. Will post about the other movements later


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## Enthusiast

It's an "enjoyable" (?) or impressive enough work and very typical of Shostakovich in the 40s and 50s. I'm not sure it stands up well in comparison with other modern quartets and I find it too similar to countless other Shostakovich works. So, for me, not one of his best. I have listened to a couple of versions and was surprised to find myself preferring the Fitzwilliam Quartet to the Borodin Quartet account in this work. I've got the Emersons' account somewhere and will give that a listen when I find it - I remember finding some of their performances excellent.


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## flamencosketches

I ought to try and hear the Fitzwilliams, and the Borodins. But today I think it will be the Beethoven Quartet.

If anyone is curious, a few of the Beethoven Quartet Shostakovich recordings-including String Quartet No.4, as well as the Piano Quintet with the composer himself on the keys-can be had as part of this cheap download, hours of music for $1...:

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Shostakovich-Box-Various-artists/dp/B079C3MSZL


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## Eramire156

*String Quartet no.4 in D major, op.83
Borodin Quartet (original members)*

A word on the set complete, DSCH had not composed his final quartets, before the departures of two of the original members of the
quartet, it is probably the same recording issued by Mercury, the Chandos is short on discographical details. Interesting work if not a great work, with three movements allegretto, I find it filled with the angst of the times.


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## Mandryka

Eramire156 said:


> View attachment 133180
> 
> 
> *String Quartet no.4 in D major, op.83
> Borodin Quartet (original members)*
> 
> A word on the set complete, DSCH had not composed his final quartets, before the departures of two of the original members of the
> quartet, it is probably the same recording issued by Mercury, the Chandos is short on discographical details. Interesting work if not a great work, with three movements allegretto, I find it filled with the angst of the times.


The earlier recording has a bitter sweet quality in the 4th which isn't there in the later recording, the later recording feels tougher to me. You never know how much this sort of thing is imagination. Both seem to me worth hearing.


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## Shosty

A bit more historical context might be interesting here. Shostakovich did write his 4th quartet in the summer of 1949 but it was only premiered a few months after the death of Stalin in 1953 by the Beethoven quartet. (In fact in the four months following Stalin's death Shostakovich saw the premiere of three of his major works: the 4th and 5th quartets and the 10th symphony). I've read that his use of Russian and Jewish themes in this quartet might have been a reaction to the anti-semitic sentiment found in Stalin-era sovien union.









The Borodin quartet recording on mercury is my favorite 4th, but I also like Emerson quartet's version. Sadly I don't have any recordings from the Beethoven quartet, but I'll look for it on youtube tomorrow.


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## flamencosketches

flamencosketches said:


> I ought to try and hear the Fitzwilliams, and the Borodins. But today I think it will be the Beethoven Quartet.
> 
> If anyone is curious, a few of the Beethoven Quartet Shostakovich recordings-including String Quartet No.4, as well as the Piano Quintet with the composer himself on the keys-can be had as part of this cheap download, hours of music for $1...:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Big-Shostakovich-Box-Various-artists/dp/B079C3MSZL


Hmm, if anyone does decide to go for this set, be forewarned that SQ No.4 is mislabeled-what is called movement IV is actually the first movement of SQ No.5 (with the rest of the quartet nowhere to be found), while the third and fourth movements of SQ No.4 are on a single track.

So, I don't love this recording, but I'm glad to have it. The sound is pretty raw, which doesn't do any favors for my impression of the performance itself. It's nice, but it almost sounds like they don't dig into the music enough... which may turn out to have been not at all the reality of it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Like everything by this composer, this is a work that defies conventional explanation upon first listen, and which invites repeated study to get a richer taste of its mysteries, its colors, its emotions, and its convoluted intentions. That said, I am somewhat inclined to agree with Enthusiast that there is not much here to distinguish it from other Shostakovich works, which can get rather homogeneous in musical language. But there is still much here to love! The first movement is certainly a very unique creation as it is essentially written for string trio with a cello drone, and the gorgeous, naive folk tune seems to gradually descend into darkness and chaos. A really nice device to set the mood. The second movement is probably my favorite as the sinuous, dark-hued melody struggles to assert itself. The second half doesn't seem to hold my attention as much, and I haven't really learned to identify the recurring Jewish themes that act as a sort of binding leitmotif. Definitely a quartet that I'm thankful to spend a week on. I listened to the Pacifica today, but I wasn't really a fan - there was something anemic about the tone (perhaps due to the recorded sound?). I dunno, sometimes it's just hard to put into words why you like/don't like a performance. And it is strange why the Pacifica's finale is 10 minutes long compared to others where it's around 4...haven't figured that out; must be a super long repeat or something.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> The earlier recording has a bitter sweet quality in the 4th which isn't there in the later recording, the later recording feels tougher to me. You never know how much this sort of thing is imagination. Both seem to me worth hearing.


I think that may be right. The later one does seem tough which might have worked well once but doesn't seem to work too well these days. I think it sounds a little generic or "how we expect Shostakovich to sound".


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I think that may be right. The later one does seem tough which might have worked well once but doesn't seem to work too well these days. I think it sounds a little generic or "how we expect Shostakovich to sound".


Shostakovich IS generic, apart from at the very end. That's why middlebrow people like it, they feel on safe predictable easy comfortable familiar ground.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Like everything by this composer, this is a work that defies conventional explanation upon first listen, and which invites repeated study to get a richer taste of its mysteries, its colors, its emotions, and its convoluted intentions. That said, I am somewhat inclined to agree with Enthusiast that there is not much here to distinguish it from other Shostakovich works, which can get rather homogeneous in musical language. But there is still much here to love! The first movement is certainly a very unique creation as it is essentially written for string trio with a cello drone, and the gorgeous, naive folk tune seems to gradually descend into darkness and chaos. A really nice device to set the mood. The second movement is probably my favorite as the sinuous, dark-hued melody struggles to assert itself. The second half doesn't seem to hold my attention as much, and I haven't really learned to identify the recurring Jewish themes that act as a sort of binding leitmotif. Definitely a quartet that I'm thankful to spend a week on. I listened to the Pacifica today, but I wasn't really a fan - there was something anemic about the tone (perhaps due to the recorded sound?). I dunno, sometimes it's just hard to put into words why you like/don't like a performance. And it is strange why the Pacifica's finale is 10 minutes long compared to others where it's around 4...haven't figured that out; must be a super long repeat or something.


Which recording has a finale that's 4 minutes? The Emerson recording is 9:30, the newest Borodin is 10:44, the Jerusalem Quartet is 9:54, in addition to the Pacifica you mention.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> Which recording has a finale that's 4 minutes? The Emerson recording is 9:30, the newest Borodin is 10:44, the Jerusalem Quartet is 9:54, in addition to the Pacifica you mention.


Don't know what I was thinking there. I must have gotten it confused with the third movement, which you had mentioned was around 4 minutes in the Pacifica recording while others were around 12. Perhaps I wanted to will myself into thinking the finale was shorter because I found it kind of boring. Sorry!


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Don't know what I was thinking there. I must have gotten it confused with the third movement, which you had mentioned was around 4 minutes in the Pacifica recording while others were around 12. Perhaps I wanted to will myself into thinking the finale was shorter because I found it kind of boring. Sorry!


No worries-and I figured out what the problem was there; some recordings (including the Beethoven Quartet one that I have) roll the 3rd and 4th movements into one track.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Shostakovich IS generic, apart from at the very end. That's why middlebrow people like it, they feel on safe predictable easy comfortable familiar ground.


Well, I find the second Borodin Quartet account of the work in question to be especially generic! But, while I think you are more or less right about Shostakovich, there are always exceptions for any period of his output. The Preludes and Fugues is an obvious example and but you might also find some of the quartets, symphonies, concertos to be more distinctive and worthy than most.


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## Simplicissimus

Mandryka said:


> Shostakovich IS generic, apart from at the very end. That's why middlebrow people like it, they feel on safe predictable easy comfortable familiar ground.


Middle brow... I plead guilty as charged  What makes this piece non-generic for me is the Jewish theme usage, though use of folk themes is common enough that I guess I can understand the idea that this quartet sounds generic.


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## Bwv 1080

The Qt was dedicated to the memory of Piotr Williams, the artist and set designer:
https://arthive.com/artists/16854~Petr_Vladimirovich_Williams

Painter, theater. artist, hon. artist of the RSFSR (1944). Studied in Moscow. VKHUTEMAS, student of V. Meshkov, K. Korovin, P. Konchalovsky. In 1922 the head, then deputy. Head Museum of pictorial culture in Moscow. One of the organizers and member of the OST (1925-31) and the Isobrigade (since 1931). Since 1930 he performed as a theater. thin., since 1941 artist of the Bolshoi Theater. He was on friendly terms with the writer M. Bulgakov, film director G. Aleksandrov and his wife L. Orlova. The design of S. Prokofiev's ballets (Cinderella, 1945; Romeo and Juliet, 1946) and other performances at the Bolshoi Theater, Moscow Art Theater and other Muscovites. t-rah, paintings and portraits ("Portrait of V. Meyerhold", 1925; "Acrobat", 1926; "Portrait of K. Stanislavsky", 1932) and other works. Laureate of Art. etc. (1943, 1946, 1947).

(1902, Moscow - 1947, Moscow)

Russian Soviet artist, one of the painters of the circle of the "Society of Easel Artists" (OST), a master of scenography.

The son of an American scientist-technologist V.R. Williams, who took Russian citizenship in 1896.

As a boy (since 1909) he attended the school-studio of V.N. Meshkova. In 1918 he entered the medical faculty of Moscow University, but in the same year left him and in 1919-1924 he studied in Vhutemas, where V.V. was among his mentors. Kandinsky,

I.I. Mashkov, D.P. Shterenberg.

During his studies (since 1922) he took part in the organization of the experimental Museum of pictorial culture.

In 1922 - 1924 he entered the group of "concreteists", which stood at the origins of the OST, then (1925) became one of the founders of the latter.

In the 1930s, the theater became the mainstream of Williams' creativity. The classic principles of the majestic architectural decoration with a portal frame prevailed in his scenography.

Three times winner of the Stalin Prize: for the design of the performances "Romeo and Juliet"

S.S. Prokofiev (1947); "William Tell" by J. Rossini (1943), "Cinderella" S.S. Prokofiev (1946) at the Bolshoi Theater.


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Shostakovich IS generic, apart from at the very end. That's why middlebrow people like it, they feel on safe predictable easy comfortable familiar ground.


I remember a comp professor snidely dismissing Shostakovich as a hack, which left me with a fondness for his music.


----------



## Bwv 1080

seitzpf said:


> Middle brow... I plead guilty as charged  What makes this piece non-generic for me is the Jewish theme usage, though use of folk themes is common enough that I guess I can understand the idea that this quartet sounds generic.


Smetana was generic, Shostakovich has a sound that is immediately recognizable - no one could listen to this quartet and be confused who the composer was.


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## flamencosketches

I would call neither Smetana nor Shostakovich generic, though I understand where that critique comes from in both cases.

Interesting that several members here have declared this not to be one of Shostakovich's better quartets. I wonder, then, which ones are the good ones, _selon vous_?

Planning on listening to the Pacifica recording again today. Anyone enjoying the Fitzwilliam SQ recording? I think I should hear that one.


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## flamencosketches

Anyone know anything about this set? It's going really cheap on Amazon right now. I suspect these were Soviet recordings? But I can't find any information on it.


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## Enthusiast

I think the Fitzwilliam recording is the one I have enjoyed the most (of the three I have heard) for this quartet at this time.


----------



## Iota

flamencosketches said:


> Anyone know anything about this set? It's going really cheap on Amazon right now. I suspect these were Soviet recordings? But I can't find any information on it.


It seems to be the same set as the one I have on Regis, as the timings for the Quartet no.4 e.g are identical (see site below). If so, yes they were recorded in Moscow 1978 -88, and are very good indeed imo.

http://altocd.com/product/alc5002


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## Mandryka

I've started to enjoy The Alexander Quartet in this one, partly because of the cello


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## Merl

It's been some time since I played any of Shosty SQs so it was lovely to reacquaint myself with this one. I've gotta say I adore that 2nd movement. It's a sad but beautiful andantino that to me sounds like a musical elegy before that extraordinary final movement caps it off. I've always found this SQ much easier to access than some of Shosty's other SQs. I have a few sets of these pieces but turned to my old Rubio Quartet set on Brilliant and they didn't let me down (that's a very underrated cycle, IMO). They handle the whole quartet superbly.


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## sbmonty

So I've now listened to the Mandelring Quartet, Fitzwilliam Quartet and the Pacifica Quartet. The playing was exceptional but I think the Fitzwilliam is my preference. Probably just a little more warmly recorded. The Pacifica seemed to play with a bit more edge. A little more angst. 
I agree the andantino certainly is achingly sad sounding. Wistful comes to mind.


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## Bwv 1080

Im back to Brodsky, my old standby and favorite for the later SQs. Key thing for me is less rubato and vibrato, this music works best if it is just played with more or less a strict rhythmic pulse.

Also been listening to 1 through 6, as 7 is where my familiarity begins and would place #4 as the best of the six (but 7 is one of the best things DSCH wrote). So my take is the SQs in terms of quality are a bell curve centered on 8, the early ones are not the mature voice and the last ones are IMO not up to the greatness of the Violin and Viola sonatas and I have trouble maintaining interest (but its been a long time since I listened to the last quartets, so probably should give them another try)


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## Josquin13

I've listened to three recordings this week--the Borodin Quartet's 1967 recording on Chandos, Quatour Danel on Alpha (or formerly on Fuga Libera), and the Fitzwilliam Quartet on Decca. All three are excellent.

What I most liked about the Borodin Quartet's 1967 recording is that although they play more roughly (& probably interpret the music in a slightly more 'late romantic' vein, with more rubato) than quartets do today, they were able to make the whole quartet sound like one continuous, unified piece of music, rather than some hodgepodge of ideas that didn't quite progress or all fit together organically. I think the reason for this is due to how intensely the Borodins connect to the raw emotional world of each movement in relation to the next and therefore the whole quartet. In 1967, I'd imagine they deeply understood the difficult, perilous world within Soviet Russia from which this music derives. It sounds like it to me. If that's what people hear as 'generic' then I think it's a good thing. On the negative side, I wasn't able to hear the whole score laid out quite as clearly or fully as I'd normally like, and not only because the Borodin's playing is a bit rougher or less refined, but also because the sound engineering isn't up to today's standards. So, that may add to the feeling that their performance is more generic, since it's less detailed.

Then I listened to Quatour Danel--who once trained with the Borodin Quartet--and enjoyed how clearly they presented every detail in the score. What I liked most about the Danel's performance is how attentive they were to all the subtle nuances within all four string parts--which means that I was able to hear literally everything that Shostakovich wrote down on the page. They also understood the content and meaning of the music and had something of their own to add to it, interpretatively, particularly in the first two movements. Nevertheless, I didn't feel that they quite tied the whole quartet together as coherently as the Borodin Quartet did. The movements seemed to be slightly more like separate ideas and maybe not quite so intimately related as in the Borodin's performance. In other words, the content of their interpretation seemed to be a bit more viewed from the outside looking in. But it's still a remarkable performance, and I wouldn't want to be without it, especially since the Danels do offer valuable insights into the score that I don't hear from other groups.

Then I listened to the Fitzwilliam Quartet, and I found their performance to be even better, which is really saying something. The Fitzwilliams offer the best of what the Borodin and Danel Quartets achieve in this music. It's a detailed performance, yet there is a real understanding of how this whole piece fits together organically. I don't think Shostakovich intended this quartet to sound like a series of unrelated episodes. Rather, there is a coherent logic that holds the movements together, and I suspect that this underlying unifying element is more of a psychological or emotional state of mind, and one that is predominantly Jewish influenced. In other words, the Jewish influence doesn't simply emerge at the end in the final movement (where it is most obvious), but rather is more pervasive throughout the whole quartet.

Granted, the whole score isn't quite as crystal clear with the Fitzwilliams as it is with Quatour Danel--which I'd attribute to the Danel Quartet simply having the more vivid sound engineering. But I did hear a lot more details in the score in the Fitzwilliam's performance than with the Borodin Quartet. So, in that sense, yes, it's a less generic sounding performance. (Though I wouldn't call the Borodin's performance or this quartet "generic" myself.)

I'd also be remiss not to mention that the Fitzwilliam Quartet was Shostakovich's preferred quartet to perform his music. They were the ones that he felt understood his scores most deeply. Hence, it's no accident that he asked them to give the Western premieres of his final three string quartets (nos. 13-15). We know about Shostakovich's preference from the British composer Benjamin Britten, who after Shostakovich died in 1975, reported that Shostakovich had told him the Fitzwilliams were the quartet that he felt best understood his music. Of course, that means Shostakovich preferred the Fitzwilliam Quartet over the older Soviet Beethoven or Borodin Quartets. Which is something to keep in mind when comparing the various recordings of these quartets. It might be worth asking ourselves, when listening--why did Shostakovich prefer the Fitzwilliam's interpretation of the 4th or 8th, etc., over the Borodin and Beethoven Quartets, and what makes the Fitzwilliam's interpretation different?--especially in regards to the final three quartets. My impression is that the Fitzwilliam's take a more refined and detailed approach to this music than the older Soviet quartets, and one that is perhaps more classically oriented. Their ensemble is not as rough, either, and they're probably more rhythmically strict, as well--i.e., they use less rubato. If I'm right about that, then those attributes may provide some clues about why Shostakovich preferred the Fitzwilliams over the Russian quartets, & also give us some idea about how he saw his own quartets (i.e., not so much in a late romantic vein).

Since others here seem to agree with me about the Fitzwilliam Quartet's performance, I'm curious, what is your take on how they differ from the other quartet groups you've heard in this music? What sets them apart?

For those that missed my initial post, here again are YT links to the three performances that I listened to (and as mentioned, unfortunately the St.Petersburg Quartet's fine recording on Hyperion isn't on YT, which is too bad, since their excellent Shostakovich should be a part of this conversation):

--Borodin Quartet from 1967, on Chandos: this is the original line up with Rostislav Dubinsky, Yaroslav Alexandrov, Dmitry Shebalin, & Valentin Berlinsky: 




--Quatour Danel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhAq...ltosA&index=31.

--Fitzwilliam Quartet: 




(--St. Petersburg Quartet: https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/d...dc=W3400_67154.)

As for the influence of Jewish music on Shostakovich, and particularly on this 4th quartet, it's easy to hear late in the quartet, in the final movement, as noted. Have you ever seen a Jewish wedding dance?: 




Plus, here's a Jewish folk melody from Bratslav, Ukraine: 




Even better, here's an excellent lecture on "The Jewish Sound in Soviet Music", which I think is relevant to Shostakovich's string quartets and other works. Interestingly, the lecturer tells us that Shostakovich composed his quartets more or less in a competition with his close friend, Mieczyslaw (or Moishe) Weinberg. In addition, the lecturer discusses the origin of Jewish music in classical music during the Soviet era, and finishes his talk on Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet. I wish he'd covered the 4th quartet--not only for our purposes, but also because I see the 4th as being even more Jewish influenced than the 8th--but he didn't. However, you can take much of what he says about the Jewish influence on Soviet music and apply it to Shostakovich's 4th I think: 




According to Wiki, Shostakovich strongly identified with Jewish music's "ability to build a jolly melody on sad intonations", and the Wiki writer offers the examples of Shostakovich's Fourth String Quartet, 1st Violin Concerto, Four Monologues on Pushkin Poems, and his Piano Trio in E minor; in addition to his 5 songs "From Jewish Folk Poetry".

Of additional interest, here is Venjamin Fleishmann's short one act opera, entitled "Rothschild's Violin" (or fiddle), which was based on a story by Anton Chekhov (an idea that Shostakovich suggested to Fleishmann): Fleishmann (1913-1941) was one of Shostakovich's most gifted pupils at the Leningrad Conservatory, but his life was tragically cut short when he joined the civil brigades to defend Leningrad against the Nazis, after which Shostakovich managed to salvage his student's unfinished score and orchestrate the opera in 1944:














Here too are Shostakovich's "5 songs from Jewish folk poetry": 




Now you might want to listen to the 4th string quartet again...






Of further interest: A friend of mine was a friend of Shostakovich's. Yes, I know, it sounds incredible, even to me. Unfortunately, I never really talked with him much about Shostakovich (as I was young at the time, and didn't know much about classical music). But he did tell me a few things. For example, I remember that we once talked about Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet. He told me that Shostakovich had composed it in response to the allied bombing of the city of Dresden at the end of WW2: the destruction of which Shostakovich had witnessed first hand after the war in 1959 or 1960. Of course, today, that story is well known in relation to the 8th String Quartet, but, I also vaguely recall--and don't quote me on it because it was a long time ago--my friend telling me that Shostakovich had visited Dresden before the war, earlier in his life (possibly with his 1st wife??), and that he knew how magnificent the city had been before it was so utterly destroyed: which made the experience of seeing it after the war in near total ruins all the more harrowing for him. Indeed, I can remember my friend telling me that Shostakovich was devastated by the destruction that he saw in Dresden, and I got the sense that Shostakovich had told him that first hand.

I'm not sure whether the biographers know about this small, but to my mind important detail--that Shostakovich had visited Dresden earlier in his life--especially in relation to the meaning of the 8th SQ, as I've never actually read a biography on Shostakovich. But maybe they do know? My guess is that his son Maxim must know, and probably others, too. My friend also knew the late conductor Gennady Rozhdestvensky well, who I believe Shostakovich had introduced him to, seeing that Rozhdestvensky & Shostakovich were friends. In the years following Shostakovich's death, my friend used to call Rozhdestvensky "my spy in the Soviet Union" (a joke).

Bwv 1080 writes, "I remember a comp professor snidely dismissing Shostakovich as a hack, which left me with a fondness for his music."

Did you study composition with Robin Holloway? (though you needn't say, if you don't want to). I know that Holloway considers Shostakovich to be "grotesquely overestimated". He once described Shostakovich's music as "battleship-grey in melody and harmony, factory-functional in structure; in content all rhetoric and coercion"--in an article that he wrote for The Spectator, 29 June, 2015, entitled, "Shostakovich horrors". But I also know another composer, a friend of Holloway's, who told me that Holloway's views on Shostakovich were "crazy".

As for next week's choice, I thought we were going to put together a comprehensive list of those that wish to contribute a quartet each week--by taking turns. If that's okay with Allegro Con Brio, perhaps I can initiate the list? If so, who would like to be added to the list to recommend a weekly quartet?--among those that have not already had a turn. I'll put the new list in the order of whoever responds first. In other words, whoever initially responds will get to pick next week's quartet, and whoever responds second, the week after that, and so on, if that's agreeable to everyone?

What has happened to the nice fellow that started this weekly quartet thread, Vicente, from Madrid? He disappeared so suddenly. I hope that he didn't catch this dreaded virus, and that he's doing well. I think we should put his name on our list, just in case he intends to return, and if necessary skip past him for two or three turns, that is, until he either comes back, or it becomes clear that he's not likely going to return to the thread. How does that sound?


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

^Thanks for the survey, Josquin. Lately I've been wrapped up in some deep Bach Passions listening for Holy Week, but tomorrow I'll go for the Fitzwilliam performance, which seems to be the pretty unanimous top choice so far. 

As far as our list of "nominators," I'm totally good with your idea! I think that would be ideal so people know in advance when it's their turn. If you want to nominate a quartet, please indicate so and Josquin or I will assemble the list. For reference, these members have already chosen at least once:

Allegro Con Brio
Josquin13
Mandryka
Enthusiast
flamencosketches
Vicente

I agree that priority should be given to those participators who have not yet chosen. And yes, I do hope that Vicente is OK - hopefully, he'll come back sometime and see how much wonderful discussion has idea has sparked We should definitely add him to the list just in case (since it appears he first joined in 2015 and took a five-year break before returning to start this thread).


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## Bwv 1080

Josquin13 said:


> Even better, here's an excellent lecture on "The Jewish Sound in Soviet Music", which I think is relevant to Shostakovich's string quartets and other works. Interestingly, the lecturer tells us that Shostakovich composed his quartets more or less in a competition with his close friend, Mieczyslaw (or Moishe) Weinberg. In addition, the lecturer discusses the origin of Jewish music in classical music during the Soviet era, and finishes his talk on Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet. I wish he'd covered the 4th quartet--not only for our purposes, but also because I see the 4th as being even more Jewish influenced than the 8th--but he didn't. However, you can take much of what he says about the Jewish influence on Soviet music and apply it to Shostakovich's 4th I think:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to Wiki, Shostakovich strongly identified with Jewish music's "ability to build a jolly melody on sad intonations", and the Wiki writer offers the examples of Shostakovich's Fourth String Quartet, 1st Violin Concerto, Four Monologues on Pushkin Poems, and his Piano Trio in E minor; in addition to his 5 songs "From Jewish Folk Poetry".
> 
> Of additional interest, here is Venjamin Fleishmann's short one act opera, entitled "Rothschild's Violin" (or fiddle), which was based on a story by Anton Chekhov (an idea that Shostakovich suggested to Fleishmann): Fleishmann (1913-1941) was one of Shostakovich's most gifted pupils at the Leningrad Conservatory, but his life was tragically cut short when he joined the civil brigades to defend Leningrad against the Nazis, after which Shostakovich managed to salvage his student's unfinished score and orchestrate the opera in 1944:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here too are Shostakovich's "5 songs from Jewish folk poetry":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you might want to listen to the 4th string quartet again...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of further interest: A friend of mine was a friend of Shostakovich's. Yes, I know, it sounds incredible, even to me. Unfortunately, I never really talked with him much about Shostakovich (as I was young at the time, and didn't know much about classical music). But he did tell me a few things. For example, I remember that we once talked about Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet. He told me that Shostakovich had composed it in response to the allied bombing of the city of Dresden at the end of WW2: the destruction of which Shostakovich had witnessed first hand after the war in 1959 or 1960. Of course, today, that story is well known in relation to the 8th String Quartet, but, I also vaguely recall--and don't quote me on it because it was a long time ago--my friend telling me that Shostakovich had visited Dresden before the war, earlier in his life (possibly with his 1st wife??), and that he knew how magnificent the city had been before it was so utterly destroyed: which made the experience of seeing it after the war in near total ruins all the more harrowing for him. Indeed, I can remember my friend telling me that Shostakovich was absolutely devastated by the destruction that he saw in Dresden, and I got the sense that Shostakovich had told him that first hand.
> 
> I'm not sure whether the biographers know about this small, but to my mind important detail--that Shostakovich had visited Dresden earlier in his life--especially in relation to the meaning of the 8th SQ, as I've never actually read a biography on Shostakovich. But maybe they do know? My guess is that his son Maxim must know, and probably others, too. My friend also knew the late conductor Gennady Rozhdestvensky well, who I believe Shostakovich had introduced him to, seeing that Rozhdestvensky & Shostakovich were friends. In the years following Shostakovich's death, my friend used to call Rozhdestvensky "my spy in the Soviet Union" (a joke).
> 
> Bwv 1080 writes, "I remember a comp professor snidely dismissing Shostakovich as a hack, which left me with a fondness for his music."
> 
> Did you study composition with Robin Holloway? (though you needn't say, if you don't want to). I know that Holloway considers Shostakovich to be "grotesquely overestimated". He once described Shostakovich's music as "battleship-grey in melody and harmony, factory-functional in structure; in content all rhetoric and coercion"--in an article that he wrote for The Spectator, 29 June, 2015, entitled, "Shostakovich horrors". But I also know another composer, a friend of Holloway's, who told me that Holloway's views on Shostakovich were "crazy".
> 
> As for next week's choice, I thought we were going to put together a comprehensive list of those that wish to contribute a quartet each week--by taking turns. If that's okay with Allegro Con Brio, perhaps I can initiate the list? If so, who would like to be added to the list to recommend a weekly quartet?--among those that have not already had a turn. I'll put the new list in the order of whoever responds first. In other words, whoever initially responds will get to pick next week's quartet, and whoever responds second, the week after that, and so on, if that's agreeable to everyone?
> 
> What has happened to the nice fellow that started this weekly quartet thread, Vicente, from Madrid? He disappeared so suddenly. I hope that he didn't catch this dreaded virus, and that he's doing well. I think we should put his name on our list, just in case he intends to return, and if necessary skip past him for two or three turns, that is, until he either comes back, or it becomes clear that he's not likely going to return to the thread. How does that sound?


I was at the University of North Texas, so not Robin Holloway

The dedication of the 8th to victims of fascism and war is generally taken to encompass Stalinism as well, with the midnight NKVD knock at the door.

_Best listened to in a windowless room, better than best in an airless room-correctly speaking, a bunker sealed forever and enwrapped in tree-roots-the Eighth String Quartet of Shostakovich (Opus 110) is the living corpse of music, perfect in its horror. Call it the simultaneous asphyxiation and bleeding of melody. The soul strips itself of life in a dusty room._ -WT Vollmann

And I can nominate a qt if you need another participant


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## Portamento

I'm interested in nominating works and participating, but I may not do so every week.


----------



## Shosty

Josquin13 said:


> I've listened to three recordings this week--the Borodin Quartet's 1967 recording on Chandos, Quatour Danel on Alpha (or formerly on Fuga Libera), and the Fitzwilliam Quartet on Decca. All three are excellent.
> 
> What I most liked about the Borodin Quartet's 1967 recording is that although they play more roughly (& probably interpret the music in a slightly more 'late romantic' vein, with more rubato) than quartets do today, they were able to make the whole quartet sound like one continuous, unified piece of music, rather than some hodgepodge of ideas that didn't quite progress or all fit together organically. I think the reason for this is due to how intensely the Borodins connect to the raw emotional world of each movement in relation to the next and therefore the whole quartet. In 1967, I'd imagine they deeply understood the difficult, perilous world within Soviet Russia from which this music derives. It sounds like it to me. If that's what people hear as 'generic' then I think it's a good thing. On the negative side, I wasn't able to hear the whole score laid out quite as clearly or fully as I'd normally like, and not only because the Borodin's playing is a bit rougher or less refined, but also because the sound engineering isn't up to today's standards. So, that may add to the feeling that their performance is more generic, since it's less detailed.
> 
> Then I listened to Quatour Danel--who once trained with the Borodin Quartet--and enjoyed how clearly they presented every detail in the score. What I liked most about the Danel's performance is how attentive they were to all the subtle nuances within all four string parts--which means that I was able to hear literally everything that Shostakovich wrote down on the page. They also understood the content and meaning of the music and had something of their own to add to it, interpretatively, particularly in the first two movements. Nevertheless, I didn't feel that they quite tied the whole quartet together as coherently as the Borodin Quartet did. The movements seemed to be slightly more like separate ideas and maybe not quite so intimately related as in the Borodin's performance. In other words, the content of their interpretation seemed to be a bit more viewed from the outside looking in. But it's still a remarkable performance, and I wouldn't want to be without it, especially since the Danels do offer valuable insights into the score that I don't hear from other groups.
> 
> Then I listened to the Fitzwilliam Quartet, and I found their performance to be even better, which is really saying something. The Fitzwilliams offer the best of what the Borodin and Danel Quartets achieve in this music. It's a detailed performance, yet there is a real understanding of how this whole piece fits together organically. I don't think Shostakovich intended this quartet to sound like a series of unrelated episodes. Rather, there is a coherent logic that holds the movements together, and I suspect that this underlying unifying element is more of a psychological or emotional state of mind, and one that is predominantly Jewish influenced. In other words, the Jewish influence doesn't simply emerge at the end in the final movement (where it is most obvious), but rather is more pervasive throughout the whole quartet.
> 
> Granted, the whole score isn't quite as crystal clear with the Fitzwilliams as it is with Quatour Danel--which I'd attribute to the Danel Quartet simply having the more vivid sound engineering. But I did hear a lot more details in the score in the Fitzwilliam's performance than with the Borodin Quartet. So, in that sense, yes, it's a less generic sounding performance. (Though I wouldn't call the Borodin's performance or this quartet "generic" myself.)
> 
> I'd also be remiss not to mention that the Fitzwilliam Quartet was Shostakovich's preferred quartet to perform his music. They were the ones that he felt understood his scores most deeply. Hence, it's no accident that he asked them to give the Western premieres of his final three string quartets (nos. 13-15). We know about Shostakovich's preference from the British composer Benjamin Britten, who after Shostakovich died in 1975, reported that Shostakovich had told him the Fitzwilliams were the quartet that he felt best understood his music. Of course, that means Shostakovich preferred the Fitzwilliam Quartet over the older Soviet Beethoven or Borodin Quartets. Which is something to keep in mind when comparing the various recordings of these quartets. It might be worth asking ourselves, when listening--why did Shostakovich prefer the Fitzwilliam's interpretation of the 4th or 8th, etc., over the Borodin and Beethoven Quartets, and what makes the Fitzwilliam's interpretation different?--especially in regards to the final three quartets. My impression is that the Fitzwilliam's take a more refined and detailed approach to this music than the older Soviet quartets, and one that is perhaps more classically oriented. Their ensemble is not as rough, either, and they're probably more rhythmically strict, as well--i.e., they use less rubato. If I'm right about that, then those attributes may provide some clues about why Shostakovich preferred the Fitzwilliams over the Russian quartets, & also give us some idea about how he saw his own quartets (i.e., not so much in a late romantic vein).
> 
> Since others here seem to agree with me about the Fitzwilliam Quartet's performance, I'm curious, what is your take on how they differ from the other quartet groups you've heard in this music? What sets them apart?


Thank you for your informative post Josquin, I'm really learning a lot here. I listened to Fitzwilliam's recording of SQ4 and then SQ8 and loved both performances. The feeling of unity is there in sq8 as well. I look forward to listening to their complete cycle of Shosty's quartets.

What do you guys think about Emerson quartet's 4th?


----------



## Eramire156

Today's DSCH 4th









*Emerson Quartet*

Tomorrow the Pacifica Quartet


----------



## Josquin13

Shosty,

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. I've not heard the Emerson Quartet in Shostakovich's 4th SQ.

As mentioned, Allegro Con Brio and I are trying to put together a list of participants for this thread. Bwv 1080 was the first person to respond to my request above (& then Portamento), but I see that Enthusiast was already on Allegro Con Brio's previous list and hasn't had a turn yet. So, I'll choose Enthusiast for next week, if that's all right? Do you have enough time to select a quartet for Sunday, Enthusiast?

After Enthusiast, Bwv 1080 will be up for the next week, and after Bwv 1080, then Portamento, who also expressed an interest above. 

Bwv 1080--if Enthusiast doesn't stop by in the next day or so, would you be able to have a quartet selection ready for Sunday, as a back up choice, just in case?

I looked through the whole history of the thread so far, and see that Eramire156, TurnaboutVox, and Selby also expressed an interest in contributing quartet selections. So, if you haven't changed your minds, could you each please verify with me that you're still interested in getting on the list? 

And if anyone else wants to be on the list that hasn't already had a turn yet, please let me know...

sbmonty?
Iota?
EdwardBast?
Hammerklavier?
Bulldog?
Jurianbai--just monitoring?
Merl?
seitzpf
StDior?
Shosty?

Here is the current order of the list from top to bottom, & I've placed an asterisk where we're presently at:

Vicente.
flamencosketches
Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
*Josquin13
Enthusiast (for next week)
Bwv 1080 (for the week after that)
Portamento (the week after Bwv 1080)
Eramire156?
TurnaboutVox?
Selby?

Perhaps we should keep the asterisk as part of the list, to help alert people when their turn is coming up?

Once everyone has responded, I'll put a more formal list together (or Allegro Con Brio can do so, if he wants to). Again, the reason why I think we need a list is because it's only fair that we have a clear order so that no one that wants to select a weekly quartet feels slighted or passed over.


----------



## Merl

I'll just lurk for a short while longer, Josquin13. I'm part way thru writing part 945 of my LVB cycle reviews. When that's done I'll chip in more regularly.


----------



## Shosty

Count me in as well.


----------



## Simplicissimus

Thanks, Josquin13 and others. I’d love to take a turn after I acquire some more experience with this thread, maybe about 8 weeks hence if that’s OK with everyone.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> Shosty,
> 
> Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. I've not heard the Emerson Quartet in Shostakovich's 4th SQ.
> 
> As mentioned, Allegro Con Brio and I are trying to put together a list of participants for this thread. Bwv 1080 was the first person to respond to my request above (& then Portamento), but I see that Enthusiast was already on Allegro Con Brio's previous list and hasn't had a turn yet. So, I'll choose Enthusiast for next week, if that's all right? Do you have enough time to select a quartet for Sunday, Enthusiast?
> 
> After Enthusiast, Bwv 1080 will be up for the next week, and after Bwv 1080, then Portamento, who also expressed an interest above.
> 
> Bwv 1080--if Enthusiast doesn't stop by in the next day or so, would you be able to have a quartet selection ready for Sunday, as a back up choice, just in case?
> 
> I looked through the whole history of the thread so far, and see that Eramire156, TurnaboutVox, and Selby also expressed an interest in contributing quartet selections. So, if you haven't changed your minds, could you each please verify with me that you're still interested in getting on the list?
> 
> And if anyone else wants to be on the list that hasn't already had a turn yet, please let me know...
> 
> sbmonty?
> Iota?
> EdwardBast?
> Hammerklavier?
> Bulldog?
> Jurianbai--just monitoring?
> Merl?
> seitzpf
> StDior?
> Shosty?
> 
> Here is the current order of the list from top to bottom, & I've placed an asterisk where we're presently at:
> 
> Vicente.
> flamencosketches
> Allegro Con Brio
> Mandryka
> *Josquin13
> Enthusiast (for next week)
> Bwv 1080 (for the week after that)
> Portamento (the week after Bwv 1080)
> Eramire156?
> TurnaboutVox?
> Selby?
> 
> Perhaps we should keep the asterisk as part of the list, to help alert people when their turn is coming up?
> 
> Once everyone has responded, I'll put a more formal list together (or Allegro Con Brio can do so, if he wants to). Again, the reason why I think we need a list is because it's only fair that we have a clear order so that no one that wants to select a weekly quartet feels slighted or passed over.


That all sounds good! We'll wait on Enthusiast's response (as he already chose the Schubert quartet a few weeks back) and we'll hopefully have a new quartet starting tomorrow. I think the current order above is a great one. Based off the most recent responses, perhaps we can place Shosty after Portamento and seitzpf and Merl towards the bottom?

Yesterday I listened to the Fitzwilliam Quartet play the Shost. 4. As it didn't show up on streaming I followed it on YouTube along with the score, which is something I hadn't previously done for this activity but which was very illuminating, especially in the finale. I found myself quite moved by the anguished climax, which the Fitzwilliams really played at full throttle. Throughout they struck the perfect balance between anxiety and naivety, gruffness and lyricism, not short-changing the work on its complex emotions but making sure the music spoke for itself. I would almost call it definitive - even though the Borodins usually top the recommendations for Shostakovich quartets, I can occasionally find them a bit too on-the-nose in terms of their attack and volume, and perhaps their very straight-laced style of playing can perhaps contribute to how we sometimes view these works as "bleak?" I think there is much more to the composer than that, as the Fitzwilliam (and Pacifica, and others) show us. This week has definitely made me want to dig deeper into Shostakovich's string quartet cycle.


----------



## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> That all sounds good! We'll wait on Enthusiast's response (as he already chose the Schubert quartet a few weeks back) and we'll hopefully have a new quartet starting tomorrow. I think the current order above is a great one. Based off the most recent responses, perhaps we can place Shosty after Portamento and seitzpf and Merl towards the bottom?
> 
> Yesterday I listened to the Fitzwilliam Quartet play the Shost. 4. As it didn't show up on streaming I followed it on YouTube along with the score, which is something I hadn't previously done for this activity but which was very illuminating, especially in the finale. I found myself quite moved by the anguished climax, which the Fitzwilliams really played at full throttle. Throughout they struck the perfect balance between anxiety and naivety, gruffness and lyricism, not short-changing the work on its complex emotions but making sure the music spoke for itself. I would almost call it definitive - even though the Borodins usually top the recommendations for Shostakovich quartets, I can occasionally find them a bit too on-the-nose in terms of their attack and volume, and perhaps their very straight-laced style of playing can perhaps contribute to how we sometimes view these works as "bleak?" I think there is much more to the composer than that, as the Fitzwilliam (and Pacifica, and others) show us. This week has definitely made me want to dig deeper into Shostakovich's string quartet cycle.


Wow, good call! I'm just finishing up listening to the Fitzwilliam with score on Youtube. Illuminating indeed. They play with a lot of fluency. It shows that there is a very organic feeling to this work, like a whole world of life inside a small form. It brings us far beyond the scope of the political intrigue and machinations that are sometimes associated with Shostakovich, "the dissident"; indeed, it puts me in the mind of Mahler's "symphonies which embrace everything". I think this is my favorite performance yet. I ought to get my hands on their cycle, but I think I owe it to myself to get a Soviet set first, before another Western one-the Pacifica hardly leaves me wanting in any case.

Edit: Argh, it's (the Fitzwiliam SQ cycle) going for dirt cheap on ebay. I might have no choice but to pull the trigger. :devil:

On the subject of next week's quartet, I'd support giving Enthusiast another choice (since there are a limited number of nominators thus far, and since I got two picks myself). But if he doesn't want to, then BWV 1080 can make the pick. Hopefully these two will chime in today.


----------



## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think the current order above is a great one. Based off the most recent responses, perhaps we can place Shosty after Portamento and seitzpf and *Merl towards the bottom?*


Sounds great to me.


----------



## Enthusiast

I did do the Schubert the week before last and am not sure it could be my turn again so soon. I could do it but would be just as happy for someone else to have a go. I don't actually have in mind a specific quartet that I want to get to know a lot better at this minute.


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## sbmonty

I'd be pleased to contribute down the road as well. I'm enjoying this.


----------



## flamencosketches

Enthusiast said:


> I did do the Schubert the week before last and am not sure it could be my turn again so soon. I could do it but would be just as happy for someone else to have a go. I don't actually have in mind a specific quartet that I want to get to know a lot better at this minute.


Sure thing, then I say we pass the buck to BWV 1080 as he's next on the list. Just a matter of tracking him down now! Let me shoot him a PM.


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## Eramire156

sounds good to me as well, Pacifica for DSCH later today and then the Brodsky, looking forward to next weeks pick.


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## Josquin13

Sorry, my bad. For some reason, I was thinking that flamencosketches had contributed Schubert's no. 15, but yes, I now remember that it was Enthusiast (& a great choice). So, let's go ahead with Bwv 1080 for the coming week, I agree. Is that too short a notice, bwv 1080? If so, could either (1) Portamento or (2) Shosty be ready on standby with a quartet selection for tomorrow or no later than Monday?, just in case bwv 1080 doesn't reappear soon enough, or feels too rushed? (or, if not Portamento or Shosty, anyone else?)

Here's the current list, taking into account the above responses:

Vicente (to skip over, until he returns...so essentially, you're at the top of the list, flamencosketches, until that happens)
flamencosketches
Allegro Con Brio
Enthusiast
Mandryka
*Josquin13 (*=where we're currently at this week)
Bwv 1080 (for the coming week)
Portamento (for the week after Bwv 1080)
Shosty (for the week after Portamento)
sbmonty (for the week after Shosty)
Eramire156--confirmation pending...?
TurnaboutVox--confirmation pending...?
Selby--confirmation pending...?
seitzpf
Merl

Yet to hear from:

Iota?
EdwardBast?
Hammerklavier?
Bulldog?
StDior?

If anyone has a particularly crowded or difficult week and won't be able to take their turn, just let us know as soon as you can, so that you can swap turns with the next person down on the list, if you want, or skip your turn altogether until the next go around (it'll be your decision). Which includes seitzpf or Merl--since some participants' confirmations are still pending, should we reach the bottom of the list sooner than expected, just let us know that you're not ready, and we'll skip past you, or reposition you on the list for a week when you think you will be ready. 

How does all that sound?


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## Merl

Move me up the list if you want Jossie! I've posted my latest LvB cycle review and raring to go on this one. LOL.


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## Eramire156

Glad to make a pick when my turn, I have a couple quartets in mind.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Nice to see such enthusiastic responses My current proposed list for the next 7 weeks, based off Josquin's, but adding the most recent responses:

Bwv 1080 
Portamento
Shosty
sbmonty
Merl
Eramire156
seitzpf

We'll give Bwv 1080 another day to respond.


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## Shosty

Josquin13 said:


> Sorry, my bad. For some reason, I was thinking that flamencosketches had contributed Schubert's no. 15, but yes, I now remember that it was Enthusiast (& a great choice). So, let's go ahead with Bwv 1080 for the coming week, I agree. Is that too short a notice, bwv 1080? If so, could either (1) Portamento or (2) Shosty be ready on standby with a quartet selection for tomorrow or no later than Monday?, just in case bwv 1080 doesn't reappear soon enough, or feels too rushed? (or, if not Portamento or Shosty, anyone else?)


I can come up with a quartet as a standby if necessary.


----------



## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Nice to see such enthusiastic responses My current proposed list for the next 7 weeks, based off Josquin's, but adding the most recent responses:
> 
> Bwv 1080
> Portamento
> Shosty
> sbmonty
> Merl
> Eramire156
> seitzpf
> 
> We'll give Bwv 1080 another day to respond.


He responded to me over PM, sounds like he's game, just mulling over his options.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Ok, this weeks quarter is ......drum roll......

Elliott Carter #3

For those not familiar with the piece, would recommend the Juilliard Quartet recording, not that the Arditti and Pacifica discs are not worthwhile, but IMO Juilliard gives the piece a clearer dramatic arc. The wikipedia article has a good description of the basic construction of the piece:



> The quartet is divided into a pair of duos, Duo I made up of the first violin and the cello, and Duo II made up of the second violin and viola. The two duos play in their own overlapping movements: distinct tempos, articulation, and material, neither coinciding with the other. The first duo is instructed to play rubato throughout its four movements, while the second plays in strict time in six movements. In addition, each movement is assigned a characteristic interval. The ten movements are not played continuously, but rather are fragmented and recombined, producing a total of 24 possible pairings of movements between the duos, as well as a solo statement of each movement. An additional coda brings the total number of sections to 35 (Mead 1983-84, 31-32). The duos rarely synchronize and frequently clash in complex polyrhythms and dissonances.
> 
> Each duo uses a distinct interval class, dynamic range, phrasing, and bowing techniques per movement. The movements are (Mead 1983-84, 32): Duo I:
> 
> A Furioso (major seventh)
> B Leggerissimo (perfect fourth)
> C Andande espressivo (minor sixth)
> D Pizzicato giocoso (minor third)
> Duo II:
> 
> 1 Maestoso (perfect fifth)
> 2 Grazioso (minor seventh)
> 3 Pizzicato giusto, mechanico (tritone)
> 4 Scorrevole (minor second)
> 5 Largo tranquillo (major third)
> 6 Appassionato (major 6th)
> Carter intended to achieve the effect of two distinct ensemble groups playing two pieces at once, clashing in sound. However, he stressed the importance of observing the combinations of sound between the two sound sources.


So the thing with Carter is independence of voices and rhythms, nothing comes together at the bar line. The difference in movements between the two duos create a complex pattern of interactions, combining and recombining material between the two. I find there is a real dramatic arc to the piece, so hope you all enjoy


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, this will be exciting. It is not the kind of music that I have found a home with yet, but a great excuse for me to start exploring deeper into contemporary classical. I expect some challenges - my conservative ears will undoubtedly be in revolt - but I have a feeling that discussing and studying this music will open new doors for me. There’s always a time for adventure!


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## Eramire156

I'm up for the challenge, love the Composer Quartet recording of one and two

*My string quartet No. 3, commissioned by The Julliard School for the Julliard String Quartet, divides the instruments into pairs: a Duo for Violin and Cello that plays in rubato style and one for Violin and Viola in more regular rhythm.

The violin-Cello Duo presents four different musical characters: an angry, intense Furioso, a fanciful Leggerissimo, a Pizzicato giocoso and a lyrical Andante expressivo, in short sections one after the other in various orders, sometimes with pauses between. The Violin-Viola Duo, meanwhile, presents the six contrasting character listed in the program. During the Quartet each character of each Duo is presented alone and also in combination with each character of the other Duo to give a sense of ever-varying perspectives of feelings, expression, rivalry and cooperation.

Elliott Carter*

The Jack Quartet on YouTube


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## Merl

Yep, like ACB, this is gonna be a challenge for me too. Im not a lover of Carter's work but this one may surprise me.

Edit: after listening, I deemed this a step too far for me.


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## Mandryka

Eramire156 said:


> I'm up for the challenge, love the Composer Quartet recording of one and two


They also made a recording of 3, released by Musical Heritage Society. If it's hard to find I can let people have it.


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## Mandryka

Eramire156 said:


> *My string quartet No. 3 . . . a sense of ever-varying perspectives of feelings, expression, rivalry and cooperation.
> 
> Elliott Carter*


This is very ambitious.

It's one thing to create six pieces of music which express different things, give them to different instruments and then combine them. It's quite another to create in a string quartet "a sense of ever-varying perspectives of feelings, expression, rivalry and cooperation." Counterpoint does not necessarily create a new perspective on what's being expressed by each voice. It may just sound like different voices singing simultaneously and ignoring each other.

But reading Carter's note made me think of the simultaneous narratives that Faulkner worked with in _The Sound and the Fury. _


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## Eramire156

*"Musical violence"? two contrasting views*

from Fanfare reviews of the Pacifica Quartet recording

*Entering the world of these later quartets is the musical equivalent of being invited to a fancy party, only to find when you arrive that you must walk barefoot over shards of glass to get there. The musical shards of these quartets, which I heard here for the first time, are consistently jagged and unpleasant, and continue to develop in their jagged, unpleasant way through 20 to 30 minutes per piece.

The playing of the Pacifica Quartet is consistently alert, alive, musical, and passionate-at least, passionate insofar as their dramatic commitment to this musical violence is concerned. 
Lynn René Bayley​
No. 3 ... is the point where many folks gave up on the composer, but where I was (and still am) blown away. The Third is one of the greatest monuments of High Modernism. Yes, it's unbelievably complex, but it has an intensity, breadth, and passion unlike almost anything else in the Carter output. One really hears the interaction, indeed the collision, between its worlds as they revolve around one another.
Robert Carl​*


----------



## Bwv 1080

Here is a good excerpt from Schiff's book on Carter:

_I]t is certainly not necessary (or even possible!) to hear everything at once. The attention should be allowed to wander freely among the instruments and pairs, hearing them separately or in different combinations - each listener, in effect, "making up" his own music from what he chooses to hear. The musical language is far advanced and extremely difficult, but this "translation" of Carter's expression into the language of each listener's own personal experience is really the most important interaction in the piece.191_

Unfortunately there is not an easy way to get the score, I have a hard copy, but there do not seem to be even extracts available online. If you have a Scribd account there is a scan uploaded there. Also, excerpts from both the score and Carter's sketches can be found in this excellent dissertation by Laura Emmery

https://www.alexandria.ucsb.edu/downloads/wd375w49p


----------



## Simplicissimus

Well, I didn’t dislike it. That’s a start, right? Thanks for the Youtube link. This performance introduced me not only to Elliott Carter’s music but also to the JACK Quartet, who are exciting and impressive performers. I feel like I am getting more from this piece by watching and listening than by listening alone. I can follow the interactions between the members of the duos and then between the duos. I am sure that I would enjoy a live performance of this piece. I can imagine members of the audience: some intensely concentrated with chin in hand, others looking around furtively to see if other people are as confused as they are, some dozing off or looking at their iPhones. And the fellow-feeling at the end during the applause: we made it!

Reading some commentary on this piece, I realize that there is no way I will be able to perceive and appreciate more than a tiny fraction of its complexity. As I listen to it again, I think that I can only let it wash over me as I perhaps pick up on a few of the most notable qualities. Overall, I am finding this a most interesting and worthwhile experience!


----------



## sbmonty

Well, I'll give this one a spin, he said with not a little trepidation 
My first go around with Carter. Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Here is a good excerpt from Schiff's book on Carter:
> 
> _I]t is certainly not necessary (or even possible!) to hear everything at once. The attention should be allowed to wander freely among the instruments and pairs, hearing them separately or in different combinations - each listener, in effect, "making up" his own music from what he chooses to hear. The musical language is far advanced and extremely difficult, but this "translation" of Carter's expression into the language of each listener's own personal experience is really the most important interaction in the piece.191_
> 
> Unfortunately there is not an easy way to get the score, I have a hard copy, but there do not seem to be even extracts available online. If you have a Scribd account there is a scan uploaded there. Also, excerpts from both the score and Carter's sketches can be found in this excellent dissertation by Laura Emmery
> 
> https://www.alexandria.ucsb.edu/downloads/wd375w49p


I have Schiff's book. I have the 1998 edition (it's marked "New Edition" on the front) and that quote is not on p 191. Which chapter is it in?

Between now and when I last thought about Carter, I've been studying Cage. And that comment that Schiff makes (is it something Carter thought or is it something Schiff thinks?) reminds me of Cage's ideas about listening. For example, Cage writes in "Experimental Music: Doctrine" in _Silence_



> Where, on the other hand, attention moves towards the observation and audition of many things at once, including those that are environmental - becomes, that is, inclusive rather than exclusive - no question of making. in the sense of forming understandable structures. can arise (one is a tourist). and here the vaned 'experimental' is apt providing it is understood not as descriptive of an act to be later judged in terms of success and failure, but simply as of an act the outcome of which is unknown.


In _Experimental Music_, Michael Nyman attributes this comment to Cage (Rob Haskins asked him about it and he replied that he can't remember the source)



> I would assume that relations would exist between sounds as they would exist between people and that these relationships are more complex than any I would be able to prescribe. So by simply dropping that responsibility of making relationships I don't lose the relationship. I keep the situation in what you might call a natural complexity that can be observed in one way or another.


Seeing your Schiff quote makes me wonder if Carter and Cage thought in the same way about the relation between composing and listening. And it makes me wonder whether this is a distinctively American attitude.


----------



## flamencosketches

I suspect this will be the week we lose a lot of folks who are not open to giving this music a chance (and listening to the 30 seconds samples of each movement, I can't say I blame them). And though I'm not a huge fan of Carter's music, I'm game for the challenge. I have found enjoyments in some of his works in the past, but have not ventured to trying his much-lauded string quartets yet. I think I will purchase a digital copy of the Juilliard cycle so I can have it right away. Meanwhile I'll start with the JACK Quartet video posted above (funny, I just ordered a CD of the JACK Quartet playing Lachenmann). 

A very bold and inspired choice, BWV1080.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> I have Schiff's book. I have the 1998 edition (it's marked "New Edition" on the front) and that quote is not on p 191. Which chapter is it in?
> 
> Between now and when I last thought about Carter, I've been studying Cage. And that comment that Schiff makes (is it something Carter thought or is it something Schiff thinks?) reminds me of Cage's ideas about listening. For example, Cage writes in "Experimental Music: Doctrine" in _Silence_
> 
> In _Experimental Music_, Michael Nyman attributes this comment to Cage (Rob Haskins asked him about it and he replied that he can't remember the source)
> 
> Seeing your Schiff quote makes me wonder if Carter and Cage thought in the same way about the relation between composing and listening. And it makes me wonder whether this is a distinctively American attitude.


The Schiff quote is in the dissertation I linked to, I don't see it in my copy either.

I think the common thread between Cage and Carter is Ives. Carter abstracted, systematized and learned to tightly control the independent and clashing voices found in Ives' music whereas Cage ran with the random and accidental aspect of it


----------



## Enthusiast

Bwv 1080 said:


> Here is a good excerpt from Schiff's book on Carter:
> 
> _I]t is certainly not necessary (or even possible!) to hear everything at once. The attention should be allowed to wander freely among the instruments and pairs, hearing them separately or in different combinations - each listener, in effect, "making up" his own music from what he chooses to hear. The musical language is far advanced and extremely difficult, but this "translation" of Carter's expression into the language of each listener's own personal experience is really the most important interaction in the piece.191_


I did find a lot of Carter quite difficult but never the quartets, which somehow seemed very communicative from the first and which I was always convinced were masterpieces. Your quote from Schiff (is it specifically about the 3rd quartet or all of them or even all of Carter's music?) may explain how/why. Anyway for me this quartet is a great choice because I love it a lot but can still certainly get more out of it by giving it some more attention!


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> The Schiff quote is in the dissertation I linked to, I don't see it in my copy either.
> 
> I think the common thread between Cage and Carter is Ives. Carter abstracted, systematized and learned to tightly control the independent and clashing voices found in Ives' music whereas Cage ran with the random and accidental aspect of it


Yes, maybe. You know I know nothing about Ives, never explored the music. Maybe it's time.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Bwv 1050 already gave us some excellent background information (including the Wikipedia article), so I think there's no need for my "formal introduction" this week. The only piece of info I wanted to add is that it won the Pulitzer Prize for Music in 1973, the second time Carter had won the award (I didn't even know there was such thing). Only two recordings show up on my streaming service - the Juilliard and the Pacifica. The quartet was composed for the Juilliard, while the Pacifica seem to have gotten strong reviews. Is there one that we are tending to prefer so far, or is the performance element somewhat minimized with such hardcore modernist music?

In all honesty, I dunno, folks. I listened this afternoon with as receptive a mind as I could, and found myself scratching my head. The second movement sounded quite literally to me like popcorn popping in a microwave - not that that is a bad thing, actually quite entertaining! I'm certainly not one to dismiss modern music as "incomprehensible noise" or anything of the sort, but _this_ type of modern music comes awfully close for me. The type of modern music that I love is the kind that stresses the beauty and imagination of sumptuous colors and textures - Boulez, Webern, Messiaen, Dutilleux, and Takemitsu are examples...in works like the Carter, and in some Ives and Penderecki - the "modernist complexity" school - I'm totally lost. I don't hear fascinating colors sublimated into sound, I hear pure chaos. My ears take a major beating, and though I try to focus on in what the composer may be saying, I ultimately feel distressed by the lack of order and sense in what I just heard. I understand that there is a meticulous mathematical order to the work, but I hear it as complexity for its own sake, totally detached from the listener. If I listened intently and repeatedly, would it click for me? Very possibly. But I've concluded that it's not worth it (again, only for me) to spend significant time with this music when there is so much other music (including much contemporary music) that I find more rewarding. I wish you all happy listening and discussion this week, but I'm afraid to say I'll be sitting this one out. I will, however, be monitoring the thread as always

*Portamento*, it's your turn next week to choose a quartet, so be thinking about which work you'd like to nominate


----------



## Portamento

I'm quite tempted to pick a Ferneyhough quartet and watch all hell break loose.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> In all honesty, I dunno, folks. I listened this afternoon with as receptive a mind as I could, and found myself scratching my head. The second movement sounded quite literally to me like popcorn popping in a microwave - not that that is a bad thing, actually quite entertaining! I'm certainly not one to dismiss modern music as "incomprehensible noise" or anything of the sort, but _this_ type of modern music comes awfully close for me. The type of modern music that I love is the kind that stresses the beauty and imagination of sumptuous colors and textures - Boulez, Webern, Messiaen, Dutilleux, and Takemitsu are examples...in works like the Carter, and in some Ives and Penderecki - the "modernist complexity" school - I'm totally lost. I don't hear fascinating colors sublimated into sound, I hear pure chaos. My ears take a major beating, and though I try to focus on in what the composer may be saying, I ultimately feel distressed by the lack of order and sense in what I just heard. I understand that there is a meticulous mathematical order to the work, but I hear it as complexity for its own sake, totally detached from the listener. If I listened intently and repeatedly, would it click for me? Very possibly. But I've concluded that it's not worth it (again, only for me) to spend significant time with this music when there is so much other music (including much contemporary music) that I find more rewarding. I wish you all happy listening and discussion this week, but I'm afraid to say I'll be sitting this one out. I will, however, be monitoring the thread as always
> 
> *Portamento*, it's your turn next week to choose a quartet, so be thinking about which work you'd like to nominate


I think you're overthinking it. First off, you have to take the composer's word that it is not "incomprehensible noise." Of course, if you happened to have a score and knowledge of post-war music theory, you could figure that out for yourself; however, since most people don't have those two things, you are forced to just let the music wash over you. Carter was obsessed with the abstract concept of "confusion" and the complexity of living in modern America. That being said, his hyper-dense middle period is tough going for me as well. Before you give up on this composer, however, I encourage you to try the late works (i.e. the ones produced after he turned 90!). Here Carter reaches a sense of distilled transparency that is not present anywhere else in his career. Like Brahms, he wrote a beautiful and expressive Clarinet Quintet:






I'd also recommend the _Cello Concerto_ and _Dialogues_, for piano and chamber orchestra, among others.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Carter’s music consists of drama, a pole apart from the debussy / webern aesthetic of Boulez and Takemitsu. Ives famously admonished listeners to ‘stand up and take your dissonance like a man’ - Carter embraced this Puritan aesthetic. However, the dissonance is tightly contolled and never gratuitous- its purpose is to expresses the drama and tension. Like real life, it never neatly resolves


----------



## Mandryka

I think The Pacifica Quartet is very good, as is Arditti. Both well recorded, Pacifica is cued with the expressive indications in the score, which I thought was helpful. 

What else do we have? I can find Juilliard, Pacifica, Composers, Arditti. Is that really it? Has anyone checked to see of there’s any good ones on YouTube, Soundcloud?


----------



## Mandryka

Portamento said:


> I'm quite tempted to pick a Ferneyhough quartet and watch all hell break loose.


Arditti programmed Carter 3 and Ferneyhough 2 - it's worth listening to Ferneyhough 2 with Carter 3 in mind I think.


----------



## Portamento

Mandryka said:


> What else do we have? I can find Juilliard, Pacifica, Composers, Arditti. Is that really it? Has anyone checked to see of there's any good ones on YouTube, Soundcloud?


The composer's website lists 7 recordings by 5 quartets. These are:

Juilliard (1974)
Arditti (1983)
Composers (1983)
Arditti (1988)
Juilliard (1991)
Pacifica (2009)
JACK (2014)

For what its worth, all of these except for the JACK were probably composer-supervised. Pacifica sounds definitive to my ears, but the only other one I've heard is Juilliard 1991.



Mandryka said:


> Arditti programmed Carter 3 and Ferneyhough 2 - it's worth listening to Ferneyhough 2 with Carter 3 in mind I think.


You could nominate the Ferneyhough when it's your turn -- #2 is my favorite of his six. I was thinking either Schnittke #2 or Xenakis _Tetras_ for next week.


----------



## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> but _this_ type of modern music comes awfully close [to incomprehensible noisefor me.


 I thought of your comment while listening this morning to a multitext ballade by Machaut. Is this close to incomprehensible noise? It seems to me to have something in common with the Carter.


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## Mandryka

Portamento said:


> JACK (2014)


The Jack did a Carter cycle in London last year, I'd quite like to hear that CD but I can't find it anywhere.


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## Mandryka

Founding first violinist of the Juilliard String Quartet Robert Mann once told an interviewer that the most rewarding musical experience of his life had been living with and mastering the string quartets of Elliott Carter: “Schuppanzigh had Beethoven. Joachim had Brahms. I’m just as lucky, I have Elliott Carter.”


----------



## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Bwv 1050 already gave us some excellent background information (including the Wikipedia article), so I think there's no need for my "formal introduction" this week. The only piece of info I wanted to add is that it won the Pulitzer Prize for Music in 1973, the second time Carter had won the award (I didn't even know there was such thing). Only two recordings show up on my streaming service - the Juilliard and the Pacifica. The quartet was composed for the Juilliard, while the Pacifica seem to have gotten strong reviews. Is there one that we are tending to prefer so far, or is the performance element somewhat minimized with such hardcore modernist music?
> 
> In all honesty, I dunno, folks. I listened this afternoon with as receptive a mind as I could, and found myself scratching my head. The second movement sounded quite literally to me like popcorn popping in a microwave - not that that is a bad thing, actually quite entertaining! I'm certainly not one to dismiss modern music as "incomprehensible noise" or anything of the sort, but _this_ type of modern music comes awfully close for me. The type of modern music that I love is the kind that stresses the beauty and imagination of sumptuous colors and textures - Boulez, Webern, Messiaen, Dutilleux, and Takemitsu are examples...in works like the Carter, and in some Ives and Penderecki - the "modernist complexity" school - I'm totally lost. I don't hear fascinating colors sublimated into sound, I hear pure chaos. My ears take a major beating, and though I try to focus on in what the composer may be saying, I ultimately feel distressed by the lack of order and sense in what I just heard. I understand that there is a meticulous mathematical order to the work, but I hear it as complexity for its own sake, totally detached from the listener. If I listened intently and repeatedly, would it click for me? Very possibly. But I've concluded that it's not worth it (again, only for me) to spend significant time with this music when there is so much other music (including much contemporary music) that I find more rewarding. I wish you all happy listening and discussion this week, but I'm afraid to say I'll be sitting this one out. I will, however, be monitoring the thread as always
> 
> *Portamento*, it's your turn next week to choose a quartet, so be thinking about which work you'd like to nominate


Aw, come on now. Why sit it out if you admit that the music could click with you? Brahms and Beethoven will always be around next week.


----------



## Enthusiast

There is plenty of Carter that I had to "work hard" on and this took a lot of time (it never worked for me listening again and again to something that was saying nothing to me - I always had to drop the piece to pick up later). But I've always enjoyed listening to Carter's quartets. Trying to unpick this one, to identify what is going on and how the thing works, seems to draw my attention to the difficulties and complexity ... and to make it more difficult! So I retreat to my reasons for loving the work for now.

It helps that I love the explosion that the piece opens with. I don't hear it as ugly or like walking on cut glass at all. It is a wonderful sound! There are plenty of modern pieces that do initially sound ugly to me but this one sounds very musical to my ears ... so I am off to a good start. Some of the music does sound tersely argumentative but violins, cellos and violas all make beautiful sounds and Carter never asks them not to. I think Carter had a real gift for writing for solo strings. So, as the piece moves between different moods and sound worlds (and thereby sustaining my interest over the 20+ minutes of the piece) there is always the beauty of the playing.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Enthusiast said:


> It helps that I love the explosion that the piece opens with. I don't hear it as ugly or like walking on cut glass at all. It is a wonderful sound!


Yes! and the main reason I recommended the Juilliard recording in the OP is that I think they phrase the opening best


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes! and the main reason I recommended the Juilliard recording in the OP is that I think they phrase the opening best


I just ordered the Juilliard set. Hope it will come by the end of the week, but I doubt it. Meanwhile think I'll try the Pacifica on streaming.


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## Portamento

Mandryka said:


> The Jack did a Carter cycle in London last year, I'd quite like to hear that CD but I can't find it anywhere.


Here it is on Discogs:
https://www.discogs.com/JACK-Quarte...pudium-String-Quartet-No-3-St/release/7038851

I can't seem to find it online, so you'll probably have to purchase it.

BTW, if you like this quartet you can download the Pacifica recording on Qobuz for only $3.65!


----------



## flamencosketches

Portamento said:


> Here it is on Discogs:
> 
> BTW, if you like this quartet you can download the Pacifica recording on Qobuz for only $3.65!


Thanks for that, I think I'll do that myself.


----------



## Mandryka

Interesting comment here about Ferneyhough 2, in the booklet.



> This piece is about silence - not so much literal silence (although this, too, is an obvious feature of the opening section) but rather that deliberate absence at the centre of the musical experience which exists in order that the listening subject may encounter itself there.


----------



## Eramire156

Going back to DSCH #4, recordings listen to:

Borodin (mono)
Pacifica 
Fitzwilliam
Brodsky 
Quatuor Danel
Jerusalem Quartet (video)
Emerson 

For me the Fitzwilliam under the leadership of Christopher Rowland takes the prize, as much as I like the Pacifica, Borodin and Danel, it is the Fitzwilliam I will return to when I need my DSCH quartet fix.
As far as the fourth goes with it's three allegretto mvts. and Jewish themes ( dangerous at the time in the usrr), hardly a quartet the Composer's Union would have found acceptable, it didn't celebrate the Soviet victory, this is a much more personal quartet ("formalism") , if not a protest against the growing anti-semitism in the Soviet Union.


----------



## flamencosketches

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks for that, I think I'll do that myself.


So this is exactly what I did, and as we speak I am listening to the Pacifica Quartet recording of Elliott Carter's String Quartet No.3.

First impression: Wow, this is killer. Like a beautiful explosion of color, like light fragmenting off a prism into a million shades. I am reminded a bit of Bartók's quartets. I like how the voices don't line up. It reminds me of the more chaotic parts of Lutoslawski. A tightly controlled chaos. I really like it and I'm excited to explore this music over the week. I hope I get the Juilliard set in time, but if not, this Pacifica recording is really excellent. I think they have a great feel for the music and I suspect the composer would have agreed.


----------



## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Founding first violinist of the Juilliard String Quartet Robert Mann once told an interviewer that the most rewarding musical experience of his life had been living with and mastering the string quartets of Elliott Carter: "Schuppanzigh had Beethoven. Joachim had Brahms. I'm just as lucky, I have Elliott Carter."


I really like this quote. I have a lot of respect for Mann and his perspective here seems to shed some light on the music. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## flamencosketches

> The ten movements are not played continuously, but rather are fragmented and recombined, producing a total of 24 possible pairings of movements between the duos, as well as a solo statement of each movement.


Does this mean that there are elements of uncertainty in the music; ie. that two ensembles could choose to combine the different movements in any way they please, such that two performances could sound entirely different from one another? Or am I misinterpreting what I'm reading here? FWIW, this comes from the wiki article for the quartet.


----------



## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> Does this mean that there are elements of uncertainty in the music; ie. that two ensembles could choose to combine the different movements in any way they please, such that two performances could sound entirely different from one another? Or am I misinterpreting what I'm reading here? FWIW, this comes from the wiki article for the quartet.


No uncertainty, the movements are always in the same order. If you look at the dissertation I posted you can see the layout of the movements for each duo and the calculations of the rhythmic relations between them


----------



## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> No uncertainty, the movements are always in the same order. If you look at the dissertation I posted you can see the layout of the movements for each duo and the calculations of the rhythmic relations between them


Thanks, I'll check it out. Surely most of it will go over my head, but it may help me with some context at least.


----------



## Knorf

I'm late to this party, but I am a massive string quartet nut and am looking to jump in, if you'll have me.

Is there a list of selections so far, if I'm welcome to join? 

I saw the selection of Carter's 3rd Quartet. That's a thorny one! And one I'm still coming to grips with myself. My favorite among the five numbered Carter string quartets is No. 5; admittedly it is probably the most approachable. That's not why it's my favorite. I just think it's really beautiful and evocative!


----------



## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> I'm late to this party, but I am a massive string quartet nut and am looking to jump in, if you'll have me.
> 
> Is there a list of selections so far, if I'm welcome to join?
> 
> I saw the selection of Carter's 3rd Quartet. That's a thorny one! And one I'm still coming to grips with myself. My favorite among the five numbered Carter string quartets is No. 5; admittedly it is probably the most approachable. That's not why it's my favorite. I just think it's really beautiful and evocative!


Of course, welcome! Every week, one of us picks the quartet that will be listened to next week, and we switch over on Sundays. There's an ongoing list of who is next to pick a quartet. If you are interested, we can add you onto the list so you can pick in the future.

Here's what we've done so far:

Ludwig van Beethoven: String Quartet No.14 in C-sharp minor, op.131
Benjamin Britten: String Quartet No.3
Johannes Brahms: String Quartet No.1 in C minor, op.51 no.1
Franz Schubert: String Quartet No.15 in G major, D887
Joseph Haydn: String Quartet in G minor, op.20 no.3
Bedrich Smetana: String Quartet No.1 in E minor, "From my Life"
Dmitri Shostakovich: String Quartet No.4 in D major, op.83
Elliott Carter: String Quartet No.3 (this week)

I believe that's all of them so far but I may have missed one.


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## Knorf

Sure, I'd be happy to pick something. Any criteria? That's a very interesting list. Some standard and some not so!


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> Sure, I'd be happy to pick something. Any criteria? That's a very interesting list. Some standard and some not so!


Good question, but I think the only consensus criteria is that we are trying to avoid quartets we've already done. And then of course there is the issue that if you pick a quartet that is more "out there" or "hard-core modern" (like this week's Carter) some members will choose to sit it out. Outside of that, no restrictions. Just make sure it's got two violins, a viola and a cello.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Welcome to the thread, Knorf! Glad to have you on board. I'll add you to our list of upcoming "nominators." Right now we have several people lined up to choose within the next several weeks, with priority given to those who respond first. Hang out with us here, listen at your own pace, and enjoy some lively discussion about great music 

Oh, OK, I'll try the Carter again. The comparisons to Bartok have piqued my interest in hearing it again. Are the 1st and 2nd quartets a little bit less thorny? I'm interested in hearing them too.


----------



## TurnaboutVox

I confirm that I'm happy to participate in the selection of string quartets.

Sorry not to have posted earlier - I've been unwell and unfortunately my hearing has been affected. So whilst I have listened to the Fitzwilliam (CD), Emerson and Beethoven Quartets (streaming) in Shostakovich #4, I really haven't much to say about them.

I've known the Fitzwilliam recordings since my student days, on LP and they were first choice in the Penguin Guide back then. The LP recordings (Decca) were remarkably clear and transparent for the late 70s (1975-77 I think) and I've always loved their accounts of quartets 3 - 15, some more than others admittedly.

Carter I've always found harder to crack (much more so than Ferneyhough!) but I'll be giving Carter#3 a go, deafness notwithstanding.


----------



## Euler

Mandryka said:


> The Jack did a Carter cycle in London last year, I'd quite like to hear that CD but I can't find it anywhere.


Ooh were you there too? For some reason I'd not listened to Carter 3 since then. Just rectified that with the live JACK vid Eramire156 posted, tre-mendous!

Some memorable bits: Love the opening cloudburst and the end, the textures match as if the two ends meet. Those and other full-pelt sections that blow your hair back, who can deny this is exciting music? Love the pizzicato-fest 3 or 4 mins in when duo I joins after duo II's solo, all instruments plucking furiously kinda like falling into an ant's nest and having to learn their language. Love the slow, hushed section in the third quarter where everything goes calm but perhaps a little eerie, and then the viola/2nd violin take off their mutes and start what Carter calls the appassionato character and the way it clashes with the 1st violin/cello here is just beautiful. Fantastic range of emotions in this quartet. The mood seems to evolve almost constantly with the warp and weft of the 2 duos.

Top choice Bwv 1080.


----------



## Euler

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks, I'll check it out. Surely most of it will go over my head, but it may help me with some context at least.





Wiki said:


> Duo I (violin I/cello):
> A Furioso (major seventh)
> B Leggerissimo (perfect fourth)
> C Andande espressivo (minor sixth)
> D Pizzicato giocoso (minor third)
> 
> Duo II (violin II/viola):
> 1 Maestoso (perfect fifth)
> 2 Grazioso (minor seventh)
> 3 Pizzicato giusto, mechanico (tritone)
> 4 Scorrevole (minor second)
> 5 Largo tranquillo (major third)
> 6 Appassionato (major 6th)


Here's a rough map of how the characters combine, with Wiki's labels and timings from this video





r indicates a rest.

In the opening 5:45 we meet eight characters, four from each duo, with changes between characters unsynchronised. This opening contains seven combos plus various solos.
*[0:04] A,1
[1:12] B,1
[1:18] B,r
[1:40] B,2
[2:15] C,2
[2:47] C,3
[3:25] r,3
[3:52] D,3
[4:20] D,r
[4:42] D,4
[5:03] r,4*

5:45 marks a second phase, when duo I returns to a character we already know. Here the fastest characters of each duo come together. Duo II embarks on a sort of exposition repeat (yep, it's just like Boccherini) where characters 1-4 are revisited in reverse order.
*[5:45] B,4
[6:17] B,3
[6:43] A,3
[7:15] A,2
[7:39] r,2
[8:08] D,2
[8:30] D,1
[9:13] C,1*

The mood becomes reflective; duo II plays new material at 10:18, character 5 (their slowest), combined with character C, the slowest of duo I. 11:21 to 11:50 is the only section where both duos use their mutes. Another new, more lively character from duo II appears at 11:50, before the tranquil character 5 returns.
*[9:41] C,r
[10:18] C,5
[10:48] r,5
[11:21] B,5
[11:50] B,6
[12:34] D,6
[13:19] D,5*

The energy ramps up again in a finale of sorts before the wonderful coda. 14:52 to 15:52 is the only section in the quartet's second half where duo II revisits a character from the exposition.
*[13:35] A,5
[14:15] A,r
[14:52] A,4
[15:22] C,4
[15:52] C,6
[16:12] A,6
Coda (ABCD,6)*

Note that all 24 combinations of the 6 x 4 characters appear once.
All 10 characters also appear solo (I left out 2 where the solos are extremely short)


----------



## Josquin13

Euler writes, "...all instruments plucking furiously kinda like falling into an ant's nest and having to learn their language"

What a wonderful analogy. Thanks.


----------



## flamencosketches

Euler said:


> Here's a rough map of how the characters combine, with Wiki's labels and timings from this video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r indicates a rest.
> 
> In the opening 5:45 we meet eight characters, four from each duo, with changes between characters unsynchronised. This opening contains seven combos plus various solos.
> *[0:04] A,1
> [1:12] B,1
> [1:18] B,r
> [1:40] B,2
> [2:15] C,2
> [2:47] C,3
> [3:25] r,3
> [3:52] D,3
> [4:20] D,r
> [4:42] D,4
> [5:03] r,4*
> 
> 5:45 marks a second phase, when duo I returns to a character we already know. Here the fastest characters of each duo come together. Duo II embarks on a sort of exposition repeat (yep, it's just like Boccherini) where characters 1-4 are revisited in reverse order.
> *[5:45] B,4
> [6:17] B,3
> [6:43] A,3
> [7:15] A,2
> [7:39] r,2
> [8:08] D,2
> [8:30] D,1
> [9:13] C,1*
> 
> The mood becomes reflective; duo II plays new material at 10:18, character 5 (their slowest), combined with character C, the slowest of duo I. 11:21 to 11:50 is the only section where both duos use their mutes. Another new, more lively character from duo II appears at 11:50, before the tranquil character 5 returns.
> *[9:41] C,r
> [10:18] C,5
> [10:48] r,5
> [11:21] B,5
> [11:50] B,6
> [12:34] D,6
> [13:19] D,5*
> 
> The energy ramps up again in a finale of sorts before the wonderful coda. 14:52 to 15:52 is the only section in the quartet's second half where duo II revisits a character from the exposition.
> *[13:35] A,5
> [14:15] A,r
> [14:52] A,4
> [15:22] C,4
> [15:52] C,6
> [16:12] A,6
> Coda (ABCD,6)*
> 
> Note that all 24 combinations of the 6 x 4 characters appear once.
> All 10 characters also appear solo (I left out 2 where the solos are extremely short)


Ah, thank you for breaking that down! Makes way more sense than how I was imagining it. You explained it very simply and illustratively. Going to have to watch the video again with this in mind, I have a feeling I will be stopping and starting a lot. :lol: I'm curious to see if I can pick out the "characteristic intervals" of each segment.


----------



## Enthusiast

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes! and the main reason I recommended the Juilliard recording in the OP is that I think they phrase the opening best


I do enjoy the Julliard but have preferred the Pacifica in Carter in the past. But I'm listening to the Juilliard as I write and it certainly has strong merits. It is a very articulate (by which I mean that it gives me a strong sense of the notes having meaning, of the music talking) account.


----------



## flamencosketches

My Juilliard set should be coming in on Thursday, so I will be looking forward to comparing the two performances.

Say, have any non-American ensembles taken on this work on record?


----------



## Shosty

I listened to the Jack quartet version on youtube today and I kind of liked the quartet. The division into two duos is interesting and the music itself is pretty intriguing. This is actually the first Carter work I'm listening to and it makes me want to listen to his other works.
Sadly I'm restricted to the Jack quartet version as I have no access to any other, but I will keep listening to it during the week and enjoy the discussion here.


----------



## flamencosketches

Shosty said:


> I listened to the Jack quartet version on youtube today and I kind of liked the quartet. The division into two duos is interesting and the music itself is pretty intriguing. This is actually the first Carter work I'm listening to and it makes me want to listen to his other works.
> Sadly I'm restricted to the Jack quartet version as I have no access to any other, but I will keep listening to it during the week and enjoy the discussion here.


https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/quatuors-a-cordes-elliott-carter/0636943936320

I don't know if this website is accessible in your country, but if so, here is a brilliant recording that can be had as a highres download for under four dollars.


----------



## Shosty

flamencosketches said:


> https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/quatuors-a-cordes-elliott-carter/0636943936320
> 
> I don't know if this website is accessible in your country, but if so, here is a brilliant recording that can be had as a highres download for under four dollars.


Accessing websites that are otherwise definitely inaccessible isn't much of a problem here since I (and many others here) use vpns and whatnot to curb censorship, but paying for things is basically impossible. Thank you anyway.:tiphat:


----------



## Knorf

I'm not going to try to completely catch up, at least not with comments. I have jumped in with *Shostakovich's Fourth Quartet*, which among the fifteen, until today, was one of those I was the least familiar with. My choice was to listen to the Fitzwilliam Quartet, as I own their box of all the Shostakovich quartets. I've certainly listened to it before, but apparently without adequate concentration.

I skimmed the comments from others in this thread, and of course we all noted that certain elements stand out: the Jewish and other folk music motifs, the intermezzo-like dance quality of the first three movements leading to the deep pathos of the last, the fact that this was one of all too many compositions by Shostakovich that had to be postponed in performance until after Stalin died.

It also reminded me that Shostakovich actually has no "early" string quartets in the strictest sense. The only quartet before WWII is No. 1, in 1938, and that was written on the heels of the Fifth Symphony. We have quartets from his middle period, and from his late period, which in particular dominates his quartet output.

The fourth quartet is subtle. The intensity of Jewish-motif anguish is a bit more muted than, say, in the Piano Trio No. 2, which gets in the listener's face to a greater degree. But it also reminds one that, for Shostakovich, the chamber music, especially the quartets, was where he placed his most private musical thoughts. The Fourth quartet strikes me as especially private. It never approaches bombastic, unlike the symphonies, and it's never more optimistic in tone than wistful. It's remarkably pensive so much of the time, almost more like one of the late quartets. It is the wistful and pensive moments that have stuck with me the most.

I'm also taken with the cello writing, throughout, but especially in the first three movements. The other instruments take up their sad dance music, but the cello is sometimes off on its own, lamenting, in its middle to low range down to the C string, rather like one of the less histrionic Hebrew prophets.

This program note by Stephen Harris I found to be an excellent introduction in my revisiting this quartet (although in my opinion he exaggerates in his description of the fourth movement), paying more attention than I did before. It was worth it!


----------



## flamencosketches

Euler said:


> Here's a rough map of how the characters combine, with Wiki's labels and timings from this video
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> r indicates a rest.
> 
> In the opening 5:45 we meet eight characters, four from each duo, with changes between characters unsynchronised. This opening contains seven combos plus various solos.
> *[0:04] A,1
> [1:12] B,1
> [1:18] B,r
> [1:40] B,2
> [2:15] C,2
> [2:47] C,3
> [3:25] r,3
> [3:52] D,3
> [4:20] D,r
> [4:42] D,4
> [5:03] r,4*
> 
> 5:45 marks a second phase, when duo I returns to a character we already know. Here the fastest characters of each duo come together. Duo II embarks on a sort of exposition repeat (yep, it's just like Boccherini) where characters 1-4 are revisited in reverse order.
> *[5:45] B,4
> [6:17] B,3
> [6:43] A,3
> [7:15] A,2
> [7:39] r,2
> [8:08] D,2
> [8:30] D,1
> [9:13] C,1*
> 
> The mood becomes reflective; duo II plays new material at 10:18, character 5 (their slowest), combined with character C, the slowest of duo I. 11:21 to 11:50 is the only section where both duos use their mutes. Another new, more lively character from duo II appears at 11:50, before the tranquil character 5 returns.
> *[9:41] C,r
> [10:18] C,5
> [10:48] r,5
> [11:21] B,5
> [11:50] B,6
> [12:34] D,6
> [13:19] D,5*
> 
> The energy ramps up again in a finale of sorts before the wonderful coda. 14:52 to 15:52 is the only section in the quartet's second half where duo II revisits a character from the exposition.
> *[13:35] A,5
> [14:15] A,r
> [14:52] A,4
> [15:22] C,4
> [15:52] C,6
> [16:12] A,6
> Coda (ABCD,6)*
> 
> Note that all 24 combinations of the 6 x 4 characters appear once.
> All 10 characters also appear solo (I left out 2 where the solos are extremely short)


Thanks again for this. It's great, and really quite easy to follow. I can hear the intervals during each individual set, and the different combinations of sets leads to very interesting harmonies and polyrhythms. Very stimulating.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Thanks again for this. It's great, and really quite easy to follow. I can hear the intervals during each individual set, and the different combinations of sets leads to very interesting harmonies and polyrhythms. Very stimulating.


Would you now say that Carter was successful in doing what he set out to do, to present in music " a sense of ever-varying perspectives of feelings, expression, rivalry and cooperation?"

I'm interested in how some composers who compose systematically - I mean, they're not like John Cage, on the contrary - characterise their aims in broadly philosophical or psychological terms. This Carter quote, and indeed that bit I found from Ferneyhough about his second quartet, and some things I was reading yesterday about Bernhardt Lang. Carter doesn't talk about polyrhythms or harmonies, it's as if that's his means not his end.

I've been struggling to get my brain round what Ferneyhough says.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Would you now say that Carter was successful in doing what he set out to do, to present in music " a sense of ever-varying perspectives of feelings, expression, rivalry and cooperation?"
> 
> I'm interested in how some composers who compose systematically - I mean, they're not like John Cage, on the contrary - characterise their aims in broadly philosophical or psychological terms. This Carter quote, and indeed that bit I found from Ferneyhough about his second quartet, and some things I was reading yesterday about Bernhardt Lang. Carter doesn't talk about polyrhythms or harmonies, it's as if that's his means not his end.
> 
> I've been struggling to get my brain round what Ferneyhough says.


Rhythms and harmonies of any kind are a means, and not an end, for just about any composer! There is a great, ever-changing, variety of expressive content, I would agree, but I'm not sure exactly how effective he is about bringing across specific feelings. I'd have to listen a couple more times. I feel like I've just scratched the surface. A further question is this; how necessary is it to understand the structure of the music to gain access to the feelings, expression, rivalry & cooperation buried within?

I'll have to dig through the thread for that Ferneyhough quote, but generally speaking I know nothing about his music.

edit: oh, this:



> This piece is about silence - not so much literal silence (although this, too, is an obvious feature of the opening section) but rather that deliberate absence at the centre of the musical experience which exists in order that the listening subject may encounter itself there.


Yes, I'm afraid I have no idea what he's talking about.


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## Knorf

Ok, I did my review listening of the Elliott Carter Third Quartet. I listened to the Juilliard Quartet; I have their old set of Carter's Quartets 1-4 on CD. Again, it's a piece I haven't listened to in quite some time, partly because it seemed so very formidable.

I'm generally a fan of quite a lot of Carter's music, and have favorites from his entire, gigantic career. I've also played a few pieces of his, and always gotten a deal of rewarding experience in practicing, rehearsing, and performing his music. My favorite pieces tend to be his work from about 1985 until his death, where his craft gained a lucidity and directness, a lightness, that I find wholly remarkable. My favorite of the numbered quartets remains the Fifth.

So, the Third Quartet. I was already well-acquainted with its basic inspiration and structure: the two duos, the ten total movements that are broken apart and recombined in new contexts between the two. That's interesting, but how much does knowing that help in terms of enjoying the music?

I can't really follow the combinations particularly directly, but I'm not sure that matters so much itself, any more than directly perceiving double invertible counterpoint intrinsically matters that much in enjoying a performance of a Bach fugue. Something of the given structure holds together the quality of listener's experience, but if the material is rubbish, than the technical aspects are not especially relevant. Contrariwise, I think that poor structure would also undermine great material. Ideally, the structure presents the musical idea in the most positive possible context. In the most complex counterpoint, typically the individual musical ideas themselves are kept relatively simple. A great tune from a song typically makes for a poor fugue subject.

At first, in Carter's Third Quartet, I had the notion of being at the pub, seated at a long table with a large group of people, trying to flit my attention from conversation to conversation, or of being a bird flying over a crowded party. That can be interesting; I definitely got something out of thinking this way as a metaphor for the experience. Moment to moment, the ideas are pretty straightforward, even sort of Romantic at times. But then the context rapidly shifts and the the ideas of the moment recombine, sometimes in way that feels very unexpected, and even momentarily disorienting!

In the end, music must be successful as a musical experience in and of itself, or all the clever ideas mean nothing. I'm perfectly ok with not hearing everything at one go. Almost no one can do that anyway, even in relatively simple polyphonic music: one's attention always shifts from one line or idea to another as they listen. And that's precisely what happens in Carter's Third Quartet, one's attention is always shifting from one duo to the other, or even one instrument of one duo to another, probably rather arbitrarily, and in fact the way everything is structured makes this completely inevitable.

And this to me is what is especially interesting about this period of Carter's music, namely, the way it gets the listener to interact with time, and musical character as bound _by_ time and defined _in_ time. The sensation of time shifts from objective experience to subjective, overlaid with one's attention shifting from one musical character to another in the two duos and overlapping, deconstructed movements. It's breathtaking!

Can just contemplating one's varying experiences in time as they occur be a pleasant esthetic experience in and of itself? I'm not sure, but I think so. In any case, luckily for us, each individual character in Carter's Third Quartet is extraordinarily interesting, moment by moment. The structure creates something like a kaleidoscope, with musical ideas being fragmented and shifted and redefined by time and context. For me, in the end, the kaleidoscope metaphor works better than the big party, in terms of listening to and enjoying this music. It's quite an extraordinary experience, one I suspect is more palpable and enjoyable live, than via a mere recording, even one as stellar as the Juilliard Quartet's.

And I have found indeed that greater acquaintance has increased my emotional connectedness to this music. There are numerous moments that raise goosebumps!



Mandryka said:


> Would you now say that Carter was successful in doing what he set out to do, to present in music " a sense of ever-varying perspectives of feelings, expression, rivalry and cooperation?"


This wasn't asked of me, but I'm inclined to answer. For me, absolutely, yes.


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## flamencosketches

^Great post! I'm glad that you're getting something positive out of the music. I think I am as well. I'm going to listen again tomorrow to the Pacifica recording. So far I've heard it and the JACK Quartet live. Meanwhile I've been exploring other works of Carter's, as my interest has officially been piqued: the Concerto for Orchestra, the Cello Concerto, the Clarinet Quintet, etc. I want to hear more of the late works, they are seemingly not as complex as works such as the 3rd quartet, but still have a great depth of craftsmanship.


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## Knorf

Thank you for the kind words!



flamencosketches said:


> Meanwhile I've been exploring other works of Carter's, as my interest has officially been piqued: the Concerto for Orchestra, the Cello Concerto, the Clarinet Quintet, etc. I want to hear more of the late works, they are seemingly not as complex as works such as the 3rd quartet, but still have a great depth of craftsmanship.


Here's a short list of my favorite Elliott Carter:

Sonata for Cello and Piano (1948)
Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for wind quartet (1949)
Variations for Orchestra (1955)
Concerto for Orchestra (1969)
Symphony of Three Orchestras (1976)
Esprit rude/esprit doux for flute and clarinet (1984)
Con leggerezza pensosa (1990)
String Quartet No. 5 (1995)
Asko Concerto (2000)
Boston Concerto (2003)
Horn Concerto (2007)
Concertino for Bass Clarinet and Chamber Orchestra (2009)

Ok, that list got really big, really fast! Too big.

Alright, here's my suggestion for just a few, for starters:

Variations for Orchestra, String Quartet No. 5, Horn Concerto.


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## flamencosketches

Knorf said:


> Thank you for the kind words!
> 
> Here's a short list of my favorite Elliott Carter:
> 
> Sonata for Cello and Piano (1948)
> Eight Etudes and a Fantasy for wind quartet (1949)
> Variations for Orchestra (1955)
> Concerto for Orchestra (1969)
> Symphony of Three Orchestras (1976)
> Esprit rude/esprit doux for flute and clarinet (1984)
> Con leggerezza pensosa (1990)
> String Quartet No. 5 (1995)
> Asko Concerto (2000)
> Boston Concerto (2003)
> Horn Concerto (2007)
> Concertino for Bass Clarinet and Chamber Orchestra (2009)
> 
> Ok, that list got really big, really fast! Too big.
> 
> Alright, here's my suggestion for just a few, for starters:
> 
> Variations for Orchestra, String Quartet No. 5, Horn Concerto.


Noted. Thanks! I have two Carter discs en route to me at the moment: the 5 string quartets with the Juilliard Quartet, and Symphonia: Sum fluxae pretium spei on DG. I'm looking at a 2CD on Bridge that contains the Horn Concerto and other later works. Among others... he left behind a ton of music...


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## Mandryka

The Jack Quartet on youtube is a very good find!


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Say, have any non-American ensembles taken on this work on record?


Arditti

,kwxjnsnsxkjsncskjcnscjk


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Arditti
> 
> ,kwxjnsnsxkjsncskjcnscjk


Hmm, why was I thinking Irvine Arditti was American. Thanks.


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## Simplicissimus

Still listening to Carter SQ 3. This challenging piece really keeps my interest on two levels, which makes me think that Carter's ideas are good ones and not just gimmicks. First, without knowing about the structure of the composition ("characters," tone intervals, rubato versus strict time, and the interplay within and between the two duos), I get the impression of ever-shifting human-to-human interactions as the music moves along. This is not a piece that for me evokes impressions of nature. Second, knowing the structure makes for an interesting listening experience. Euler's schematization helped a lot in this regard. I actually fleshed it out a little in terms of the composer's markings in order to look at conveniently while I listened to and watched the JACK Quartet video.

[0:04] A,1 furioso - maestoso
[1:12] B,1 leggerissimo - maestoso
[1:18] B,r leggerissimo - r
[1:40] B,2 leggerissimo - grazioso
...and so on through throughout.

I would really like to attend a live performance of this piece some time.


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## Bwv 1080

seitzpf said:


> I get the impression of ever-shifting human-to-human interactions as the music moves along. This is not a piece that for me evokes impressions of nature. .


Carter wrote quite a bit about that being exactly his intention - capturing human drama, this is not abstract music like Babbitt or Webern


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## Allegro Con Brio

I certainly owe a tip 'o the cap to flamencosketches for encouraging me to stick with this one:tiphat: Reading what others had to say about it in this thread (some great perceptions from y'all!), and trying to re-hear it in the Bartok vein (whose quartets I really like) has led me a little closer to enjoyment. I certainly still don't understand the work, but I don't think it's meant to be totally "understood." It's simply meant to be experienced. Knorf's comparison with a Bach fugue is spot on - you just have to close your eyes and take in the wildly creative imagery of the sounds you're hearing. Writing for string quartet has always been about mastering the art of intimate and intricate dialogue, and in many ways Carter's approach is absolutely brilliant - and very similar to what made Bartok such a master of the quartet. The banter between the duos, the huge variety of textures and ideas, the switching between strident energy and smoother portions that are easier on the ears...it's like Carter is playing around with the possibility of organized sound; what can really be done when four string instruments produce sound and interact with each other. It's not conventional music, but once I quit focusing on how the overall structure sounded, and tuned into the subtle conversations that were going on between the instruments, I started to become oddly fascinated with the music. That said, I'm still not totally there yet...with this and a lot of other uber-modernist stuff, there is a sort of "choppiness" that can rub me the wrong way, like a bunch of incomplete phrases stacked on top of each other. I think this is just something I have to adjust my ears to since I'm a sucker for long, full-bodied cantilena melodies. And I haven't been able to listen through the whole thing in one sitting yet. I'm sure it's a great journey, but it's a bit much for me at this point. I've sampled a couple other Carter works (Dialogues for piano and string orchestra, Clarinet Quintet, Cello Concerto) and think there is good stuff in them. The cello concerto in particular, is a really creative piece of music. Really excited that I'm been experiencing a series of renaissances with contemporary music.


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## flamencosketches

^Awesome to hear, ACB.  I was hoping you would find something to enjoy in the music, even if you don't fully "get" it. I don't either, but I think it's completely engrossing if you just let yourself experience the music. The sounds and interplay of the strings really do create great imagery—another quartet I'm reminded of, in this sense, is Janacek's Intimate Letters, a work in which I suspect the composer is trying to reflect the infinite nuance of human interaction in a similar way to Carter's stated purpose with this quartet. 

I didn't listen to the quartet today, but I listened to a couple of other Carter works. I'll listen again tomorrow to the Pacifica recording and hopefully I should be getting the Juilliard CD tomorrow as well.


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## Enthusiast

I don't know what "getting" music involves. I'm sure no-one will doubt that I love Bach and Haydn and Brahms but, partly through my lack of training and partly through my not caring that much, I don't understand what they are doing in their music. I just know what it does to me. I can try to describe that poetically but my experience with the music doesn't involve following how the music's impact is achieved. If that is true of Mozart then it is certainly true of Carter's quartets. So I at least don't even try to follow the meaning but the music generates in me a meaning of my own and I do find the quartet in question deeply communicative (even if not in a language I know!) and affecting. I have listened to the quartet several times over the last few days in several different recordings and it always leaves me feeling different (as if I have been somewhere) to how I felt at the start.

There is plenty of music that doesn't generate meaning for me but when that happens I feel either that it is music that I don't like or that it is music I don't like yet.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I don't know what "getting" music involves. I'm sure no-one will doubt that I love Bach and Haydn and Brahms but, partly through my lack of training and partly through my not caring that much, I don't understand what they are doing in their music. I just know what it does to me. I can try to describe that poetically but my experience with the music doesn't involve following how the music's impact is achieved. If that is true of Mozart then it is certainly true of Carter's quartets. So I at least don't even try to follow the meaning but the music generates in me a meaning of my own and I do find the quartet in question deeply communicative (even if not in a language I know!) and affecting. I have listened to the quartet several times over the last few days in several different recordings and it always leaves me feeling different (as if I have been somewhere) to how I felt at the start.
> 
> There is plenty of music that doesn't generate meaning for me but when that happens I feel either that it is music that I don't like or that it is music I don't like yet.


It sounds to me as though you're open to half of what's going on, the affective half.

I feel the opposite. Of course there is music I like, but that's very variable and depends more on what I've had for lunch than anything else. The real motivation for me lies elsewhere, in making sense of why anyone would have made this thing, and what it is exactly that they have made . . .


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## Enthusiast

^ Maybe. But I don't think open is the right word. I just don't relate to music in terms of what the composer does technically. I understand that that interests many people but I am convinced that the point of composing music is not to show how clever or dexterous you are but to create something that will mean something to its audience. I do see that knowing what the composer did can be illuminating but that to me is secondary rather than a half of the whole. I think I get the whole rather than a half. There may be many routes to that whole, though.


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## Mandryka

Have you read _Music, Imagination and Culture _by Nicholas Cook? I think you'd be interested in it.


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## Enthusiast

^ Thank you - I will look out for it.


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## flamencosketches

So I really like this quartet. I've come out of this really excited to hear Carter's other string quartets; I'll start with No.5 which has come highly recommended to me. The music's constant flux of different energies is something that really appeals to me. It's actually quite easy to follow after a listen or two. I think Carter was quite successful in achieving his stated goal of capturing the nuances of human interaction. People sometimes say that a string quartet is like "four intelligent people having a conversation"; well, this one really is like that. No discussion of four people is ever as ordered, hierarchical and organized as something like a Haydn quartet. 

Still only heard the Pacifica and the JACK, but I finally got the Juilliard set and will listen to it later today.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> No discussion of four people is ever as ordered, hierarchical and organized as something like a Haydn quartet.


Ha! This is so true! That's how I've come to enjoy (not completely, but on a much higher level than the first time I heard it) the Carter - I just focused on what the two duos were doing and soaked up the sounds. I do want to thank Bwv 1050 for choosing this - I think it's great to have such a variety of styles each week on this thread, and it seems like most participants are getting something out of it, which is cool. I don't know if I have the desire to listen to Carter's other quartets right now, but my interest has definitely been piqued and I'll be exploring more whenever I'm in the mood for high modernism. The Pacifica perhaps seemed a little less "choppy" and more integrated to me, but I have a tough time detecting interpretive differences with this music. I was amazed to find out (as I perused the Composer Guestbook thread on Carter) that the Pacifica toured the country a few years back and did a series of concerts where they played all 5 Carter quartets in one night! Now that, I can only imagine, would be amazingly taxing for performers and audience alike.

This week is *Portamento*'s turn to choose - have you narrowed the playing field yet? Current schedule of nominators:

Portamento (this week)
Shosty
sbmonty
Merl
Eramire156
Knorf
seitzpf (moved one week to accommodate his request of 8 weeks out)
TurnaboutVox

*Euler*, would you be willing to nominate down the road? You were the only participant this week whose name is not on the list


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## Eramire156

Currently listening to the Pacifica, yesterday it was the Julliard, and I'll watch the video of the Jack Quartet one more time, I can't fault any of the recordings on the piece itself I'll post tomorrow.


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## sbmonty

I've listened a few times this week, primarily to the Pacifica recording. Once to the Julliard. I have enjoyed the experience more than I thought I would after the first listen. The template provided by Euler was a great help. 
I realize I have a considerable gap in my knowledge base when it comes to post 1900 classical music. This experience has made me want to commit some time and effort into better understanding these composers and the numerous styles and movements. I tend to be a bit systematic when it comes to trying to listen to an unfamiliar era. I spent the morning looking for threads to help me find the best approach to understanding the myriad styles, influences and works. Perhaps I'll start with Schoenberg. 
This is to say, thanks for this suggestion. I've enjoyed the comments and the journey.


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## Knorf

Schoenberg's String Quartets are awesome. My personal favorite of his is No. 2, the one with soprano. Amazing music!

Other early 20th c. favorites: Bartók's 6 are mighty, Weben's Five Movements, Berg's Lyric Suite, Ruth Crawford's Quartet (1931), Janáček's 2 are wonderful, etc.


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## Portamento

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This week is *Portamento*'s turn to choose - have you narrowed the playing field yet?


I'm on it! Will be posting in a bit.


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## Portamento

So this week we have:

*Schnittke: String Quartet No. 2 (1980)*






This is one of my favorite quartets by one of my favorite composers. Wikipedia offers a nice summary of his career which I will not try to better:

"Alfred Schnittke (1934-98) was a Soviet and German composer. Schnittke's early music shows the strong influence of Dmitri Shostakovich. He developed a polystylistic technique in works such as the epic Symphony No. 1 (1969-72) and his first concerto grosso (1977). In the 1980s, Schnittke's music began to become more widely known abroad with the publication of his second (1980) and third (1983) string quartets and the String Trio (1985); the ballet _Peer Gynt_ (1985-87); the third (1981), fourth (1984), and fifth (1988) symphonies; and the viola concerto (1985) and first cello concerto (1985-86). As his health deteriorated, Schnittke's music started to abandon much of the extroversion of his polystylism and retreated into a more withdrawn, bleak style."

So what is polystylism? It is the defining feature of most of Schnittke's music and definitely the quartet in question. The term was coined by the composer in his 1971 essay "Polystylistic Tendencies in Contemporary Music" and is the use of two or more different styles/techniques that may originally have been used in a bygone era. He notes that while these "polystylistic tendendies" have existed for a long time, it has never gone beyond a certain point; Schnittke gladly steps over that line. His Concerto grosso No. 1, for example, prominently employs a harpsichord to blend Baroque-era tropes with his penchant for crushing dissonance; there is also a whimsical tango that quite literally comes out of nowhere.

Why did Schnittke do this? By brashly converging classical and popular idioms (or "high" and "low" as some like to think of it), he sought to achieve a greater democratization of styles. Schnittke famously said: "The goal of my life is to unify serious music and light music, even if I break my neck in doing so." This is an idea that I have great respect for, as it shuns the elitism of many in the classical world that refuse to acknowledge the merits of other genres (to the detriment of the music). Schnittke is increasingly popular because he offers an olive branch to the masses, be it a drumset in Concerto grosso No. 2 or a Viennese waltz in the mournful Piano Quintet. Dutilleux was not a fan-he thought of 'post-modernism' as "unpalatably nostalgic" and called Schnittke "complacent" (1). This is odd, because to my ears Schnittke never used old tropes in an overly nostalgic way; in fact, much of it sounds sarcastic.

Like much of his work, String Quartet No. 2 is intensely personal: dedicated to the memory of Larisa Shepitko, a close friend of Schnittke's, the music takes on an elegiac quality. This is compounded by the fact that the quartet is based almost entirely on Russian sacred music of the Middle Ages (which is actually pretty dissonant on its own). The second movement's handling of this material is masterful and packs a punch every time. Those following the 1980-2000 Listening Chain may find the fourth movement familiar as it is based on a setting of the same Cherubic Hymn that Penderecki worked with. The last two minutes or so... utterly beautiful.

Enjoy!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Alright, so it is another quartet from the pinnacle of high modernism! I like it. The only thing I've ever heard from Schnittke was his Piano Quintet, which I actually heard live at a university concert a year ago. I really disliked modern music back then, so my impressions were negative then, but I'm excited to see how my perceptions may change.


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## Portamento

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Alright, so it is another quartet from the pinnacle of high modernism! I like it. The only thing I've ever heard from Schnittke was his Piano Quintet, which I actually heard live at a university concert a year ago. I really disliked modern music back then, so my impressions were negative then, but I'm excited to see how my perceptions may change.


Schnittke would usually be labeled as post-modernist (I don't _like_ this label, but oh well). This quartet isn't nearly as thorny as Carter's, which is definitely high modernist.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Portamento said:


> Schnittke would usually be labeled as post-modernist (I don't _like_ this label, but oh well). This quartet isn't nearly as thorny as Carter's, which is definitely high modernist.


Yes, I suppose polystylism would be categorized as postmodernist. I'm not familiar with the term in music, but I just thought of such early modernist literary masterpieces as Joyce's _Ulysses_ and Faulkner's _The Sound and the Fury_, which are epitomes of polystylism in writing. Nobody who isn't a total nerd like me will probably understand the correlation, though.


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## flamencosketches

Awesome! I'll be looking forward to spending time with Schnittke's String Quartet No.2 this week. I've only heard his 3rd quartet, which is an absolute masterpiece. 

Any recommended recordings out there? I hear the Molinari Quartet are supposed to be good in Schnittke's quartets...?


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## Portamento

flamencosketches said:


> Any recommended recordings out there? I hear the Molinari Quartet are supposed to be good in Schnittke's quartets...?


The video I posted is the Molinari Quartet, and they are exceptional-far better than the Tale, Kronos, or Kapralova recordings. I haven't heard the Lark Quartet's version, but I can't see Molinari being surpassed anytime soon.


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## Shosty

Brilliant choice. I love Schnittke's Concerti Grossi and his Faust cantata, and was waiting for an opportunity to get more acquainted with his music.


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## sbmonty

Quite by chance, I gave his 3rd quartet a listen the other day. That was the Pacifica Quartet. 
I'll give the Molinari a listen this morning. Thanks again for the interesting choice.


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## Bwv 1080

Great choice, only really know the 3rd and looking forward to getting to know this better


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## Shosty

I listened to the Kronos quartet version today and absolutely loved the quartet. It was composed in 1981 so it's not exactly early Schnittke but I could hear some Shostakovich here and there. Can anyone confirm this? or am I wrong?
In any case I loved the quartet and will listen to the Molinari version on streaming service thingies next.


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## Allegro Con Brio

No Wiki article for this one, but here’s a great essay from AllMusic’s Seth Brodsky: 

In many ways, Alfred Schnittke's entire output bears the signature of tragedy. It is often a bizarre, deeply irreverent tragedy, miles from Greek antiquity. But nevertheless disaster, catastrophe, and lament are everywhere in the thousands of pages which contain Schnittke's name. So when he writes a work inspired by an actual in-the-world tragedy, it adopts a strange multi-layered hue, and offers an unremitting experience.

Schnittke's Second Quartet is the child of such trauma, finished in 1980 to memorialize the composer's close friend, film director Larissa Shepitko, who died from a car accident the previous year. Schnittke confesses that "for me, and for all who knew her, her death came as a severe blow." The quartet that resulted from Schnittke's reaction is a particularly intense experience, and while it employs much that is familiar Schnittke territory, it carries deeper wounds.

For example, Schnittke's hallmark "polystylism" comes through in the use of early Russian sacred music; Schnittke writes that "almost the entire tonal material of the quartet is derived from ancient Russian church song," known for its striking dissonance. But gone is any of the exhilarating funhouse irony which imprints Schnittke's other polystylistic works. Instead, the single model of Russian song is pressed and pulverized with increasingly agonized vehemence; Schnittke treats it monomaniacally as a symbol of the irreparably lost and unrecoverable. In doing so, however, he also writes a work of stunningly sustained creativity. Stravinsky's famous dictum runs that a composition can only arise as the solution to a problem. Schnittke the tragedian offers a counter dictum -- that a great composition can arise out of an impossible search for a solution to an insoluble problem.

The Quartet opens with the cold, isolated sound of high string-harmonics in canon, and at close intervals. Sharp and pale, this music eventually erupts into outburst; Schnittke then quotes, in all its voices, the original Russian hymn on which quartet is based, forming a kind of poignantly hollow center. Responding to this vulnerable repose, the second movement offers an outraged, depressurizing implosion, an unrelenting explosion of activity warping the Russian hymn's contour in all ways imaginable. It begins with a "refrain" in which the hymn is expanded to four-octave arpeggios in all four instruments, each instrument flying at a slightly different velocity; the remarkable effect reminds one of a globe spinning at self-destructive speed, a kind of unstable atomic delirium barely holding itself together. At various points Schnittke operates like a film director himself, splicing in contrasting scenes of distortive fury; at one brief point this hurtling sphere smolders to a stop and we once again hear the original hymn as it appeared in the first movement. Inevitably, however, the shocked refrain returns, and ends the movement in a choked mid-spin.

This torn-off end leads immediately into the catatonic third movement, marked "Mesto" ("sad"). With equal single-mindedness but a new glacial tone, this movement offers a frozen dirge around a single note, D. Schnittke infuses the sound with a frightening thickness, which eventually swells to a barbaric climax: all four instruments, each bowing quadruple-stops, hammer out seven ffff chords.

The fourth and last movement is a kind of broken epilogue, attempting one last time to capture the missing center. But after a traumatized return to the Quartet's opening bars, Schnittke finally turns away from centers and offers a muted, translucent coda to the whole work. This starlit firmament of string harmonics literally evaporates from sound, ringing out the Russian hymn as it fades. In such a way does the work possess a double memory, of friendship, but also of heritage and history.


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## TurnaboutVox

Back to Carter #3 for a moment.

As I posted earlier, I had never particularly 'got on' with any of Elliott Carter's string quartets until now (it is quite a few years since I added the Arditti Quartet's 1988 Etcetera recording to my collection, and I hadn't felt encouraged to return to it very often).

Hearing his third quartet several times over the last week, in recordings by the Arditti (CD), Pacifica and JACK quartets (streaming) has changed all that, but of course in the past few years I have done quite a bit of listening to modernist and 'post-modernist' string quartets of the period 1950 - the present day, both live at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester and at the Huddersfield Contemporary Music festival organised by the University of Huddersfield, and on disc / online so I am certainly much more 'used' to listening to such music.

I have come to a method of listening that seems rather akin to that described in the quote from Schiff:



> It is certainly not necessary (or even possible!) to hear everything at once. The attention should be allowed to wander freely among the instruments and pairs, hearing them separately or in different combinations - each listener, in effect, "making up" his own music from what he chooses to hear. [...] this "translation" of Carter's [or that of many other composers of the late 20th and 21st century - T-V] expression into the language of each listener's own personal experience is really the most important interaction [...]


Like Enthusiast, I thought the quartet deeply communicative on an experiential level. I also liked Bwv1080's comment which I thought apt, as I do know a bit of both Ives' and Cage's chamber music:



Bwv 1080 said:


> I think the common thread between Cage and Carter is Ives. Carter abstracted, systematized and learned to tightly control the independent and clashing voices found in Ives' music whereas Cage ran with the random and accidental aspect of it


Anyway, in giving this work some time and attention I found myself exhilarated and intrigued / fascinated by it in about equal measure. I was greatly helped by watching the JACK quartet's video through which I could begin to see 'what was going on', especially by the 5th or 6th audition, by which time I was recognising phrases, combinations and patterns as they emerged. But it wasn't my favourite performance / recording - I thought the Pacifica Quartet were quite excellent, a combination of their clear, almost lyrical playing and the fine modern recording really seeming to 'open out' the work. By contrast I thought the Arditti's 1988 recording sound was a bit 'muddy'. I am a fan of the Arditti quartet, though, having heard them live a number of times.

This exercise seems to have brought me into 'contact' with Carter's music in a new way, and I look forward to revisiting quartets 1,2 and 4 - I might also have to buy the Pacifica Quartet's recording of #1 and 5, the latter of which I have never heard (the Arditti's didn't record it, afaik.)

Thanks very much for re-orientating me to this very interesting string quartet. Now, onwards to Schnittke!


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## Knorf

TurnaboutVox said:


> This exercise seems to have brought me into 'contact' with Carter's music in a new way, and I look forward to revisiting quartets 1,2 and 4 - I might also have to buy the Pacifica Quartet's recording of #1 and 5, the latter of which I have never heard (the Arditti's didn't record it, afaik.)


Carter's Fifth Quartet was actually commissioned for the Arditti String Quartet, who gave the premiere performance and made the premiere recording.

Here it is: https://www.amazon.com/Carter-Chamber-Quartet-Figment-Fragment/dp/B000007SY9









Of course, the used market is insane, as it so often is.

I enjoyed reading your comments, and am glad that you and so many here have so sincerely engaged with this music. Me, too, actually: it had been way too long since I listened to any of Carter's quartets!


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## Josquin13

I've been lagging behind this week, so I'm still on Carter's third SQ (sorry). I've listened to the Juilliard Quartet recording twice and the Jack Quartet one and a half times, or maybe it was one and a fourth times... In comparison, I didn't overly care for the Jack Quartet's interpretation at first (hence the brief listen).

I realize that music will inevitably take on a life of it's own, after the period when it was composed, and move beyond the interpretations of the musicians that gave the work its premiere--those who presumably had access to the composer's thoughts, advice, and response to what they were doing, but I initially found the Jack's interpretation to be less idiomatic than the Juilliard's. With the Jacks, the quartet didn't sound like music that had been composed in America during the late 1950s, and on first impression, I didn't think that was a good thing. Their interpretation sounded more aggressive and harsh, and maybe less imaginative in certain respects? However, technically, the Jacks are the more virtuosic quartet, and in that sense I thought their performance was more fluent and offered a more varied range of expression.

Carter's 3rd Quartet strikes me as being very abstract music, with something of a 1950s Jazz feel or influence about it. This is music that was composed at the same time as the height of Abstract Expressionism in America, and I think there are some similarities between the painting movement and the quartet, however, I'm not sure that I can pin down exactly why that is. I suppose it's more of a feeling that the music evokes. But the connection may have something to do with the fact that Jackson Pollock was likewise heavily influenced by the radical sounds and beat of Jazz music back in the 1950s.

Yet I don't think that Carter intended his quartet to be totally abstract music, either. For example, in the Juilliard recording, the music at the opening of the quartet evokes an array of distant and close noises that sound strikingly similar to what you hear all around you when you're stuck in traffic in New York City, with the windows open in your cab (possibly in the days before cabs had air conditioning). And it seems unlikely that this mix of traffic sounds was unintended by Carter.

Then, after the traffic noises die down we find ourselves in a starker, more interior landscape, one that is full of all sorts of minutiae and jaggy, plucky string sounds. Yet Carter keeps coming back to the traffic, and at one point I even heard what sounded exactly like screeching subway rails (in the Jack's performance). So, these city noises aren't just the starting point of the quartet, rather they seem to be at the heart of the work.

I came away thinking that the Juilliard Quartet should be listened to first as a better entry point into the quartet--which is what Bwv 1080 suggested, and I agree. However, by the end, I decided that the Jack Quartet gave the better performance, even though they failed to recognize the traffic noises to the same degree as the Juilliard Quartet--which doesn't seem like a small point, at least if you agree that the traffic sounds were Carter's intention.

For those that haven't yet heard the Juilliard Quartet's performance, it's on You Tube:






I'm looking forward to hearing the Schnittke String Quartet that Portamento has selected. Like others, I only know Schnittke's Piano Quintet, which I like. He's one of those composers that I've been forever meaning to listen to more, so this week's selection will give me a chance to do so.

Thanks Bwv 1080 for choosing the Carter SQ. As it turned out, I'm glad that I gave it several listens.


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## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> Carter's Fifth Quartet was actually commissioned for the Arditti String Quartet, who gave the premiere performance and made the premiere recording.


I'm having a lot of difficulty focusing on that one, I feel the same as when I try to listen to Peter Maxwell Davies' quartets. I'm sure they're both examples of interesting music, and the problem is me. One day.


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## Knorf

I just gave my first listen to the Molinari performance of the Schnittke String Quartet No. 2. I'll listen to it a couple more times through the week.

This work until today was unfamiliar to me. I only knew Schnittke's Fourth Quartet (among the quartets), from an Alban Berg Quartet CD that also includes Wolfgang Rihm's Fourth Quartet. I actually bought that CD for the Rihm, but in fact it was the Schnittke quartet that impressed more, although I do like both pieces. Anyway, Schnittke's Fourth Quartet is terrific.

First reaction to No. 2: Wow! I love it! The performance is amazing, easily verified with the scrolling score.

Everything works for me, the hymn quotation, the uninhibited stylistic influence of Shostakovich and Ligeti, the sometimes episodic construction (second movement.) The whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and carries a powerful emotional punch. And that ending! Wow...sublime. 

It's a masterpiece. And now I need to buy that Molinari Schnittke set. Participating in this forum is proving detrimental to my pocketbook!

Thanks for picking this, Portamento!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Definitely a masterpiece. Unlike the Carter, I was immediately hooked from my first listen. Schnittke is certainly a very unique composer, one whose voice wouldn't be mistaken for anyone else's. I think what he does here, taking the Russian Orthodox hymn themes (a really fascinating corner of Western music) and playing around with them, surrounding them with all sorts of textures and ideas from bucolic lyricism to savage aggressiveness, stretching the limits of what four instruments can do without sounding too experimental for the average pair of ears. Sometimes with modern music (and I must confess to feeling somewhat this way with Carter) it seems like the dissonance is there just to intentionally challenge audiences and to push the definitions of what constitutes music. But Schnittke's use of dissonance seems well-reined and practical; in other words, sincere. I wasn't aware until I did some casual biographical research of Schnittke that he was a spiritual person in his later stages of life, and there is definitely a sense of questing for something metaphysical in this quartet. The ending...oh gosh, I almost cried. Seriously one of the greatest endings in all classical music that I've heard. I really haven't heard anything else that sounds quite like this. Yesterday I revisited the Piano Quintet, and I couldn't listen through the whole thing - not because of the dissonance, but because of the deep and piercing sense of oppressive tragedy. Obviously Schnittke was a troubled man, hailing from a nation embroiled in hellish conditions, struggling to find a name and voice for himself, reconnecting with the roots of his homeland and his faith, trying to work his way through unfavorable circumstances (like the death of his mother, which inspired that almost unbearably bleak Quintet). From what little I've heard of it, his music is not light...but it sure is profound. I hope his work finds a place in the "canon" as time goes on.

Regarding polystylism, I think this is definitely a relevant side topic as we share our thoughts on this quartet. Portamento mentions Schnittke's desire to fuse popular and classical music. Yet it seems as if he thought this was platonic - Wikipedia says that he "he did not think that a synthesis of classical and popular styles was possible" and called it a "pure utopia," but still searched for a way to do so. Of course, the material he integrated into the 2nd Quartet is hardly "popular music" - but it certainly draws inspiration from outside the realm of established art music. I think this has merit in terms of assimilating various influences into an original creative realm (which is really what all artists do anyway). Interesting stuff to chew on.


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## Knorf

I'd call Carter's Third as masterpiece as well, but it has very different aims and objectives.


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## Portamento

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Regarding polystylism, I think this is definitely a relevant side topic as we share our thoughts on this quartet. Portamento mentions Schnittke's desire to fuse popular and classical music. Yet it seems as if he thought this was platonic - Wikipedia says that he "he did not think that a synthesis of classical and popular styles was possible" and called it a "pure utopia," but still searched for a way to do so. Of course, the material he integrated into the 2nd Quartet is hardly "popular music" - but it certainly draws inspiration from outside the realm of established art music. I think this has merit in terms of assimilating various influences into an original creative realm (which is really what all artists do anyway). Interesting stuff to chew on.


It is clear that Schnittke's home was classical/concert-hall music. When I say that he sought to "unify serious and light music," it is not in the sense of creating Third Stream music, but integrating disparate idioms in order to widen expressive potential. As for the quartet, even though they are not "popular" or "light," the hymns are music that would be familiar to the general (Russian) public. (Obviously, there is also a special significance to this given the work's subject matter.)


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## Mandryka

Portamento said:


> As for the quartet, even though they are not "popular" or "light," the hymns are music that would be familiar to the general (Russian) public. (Obviously, there is also a special significance to this given the work's subject matter.)


Like Brahms in op 118/6 and the Gregorian Dies Irae?


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## Bwv 1080

A few thoughs

Mahler was a huge influence on both Shostakovich and Schnittke and can hear that in the way the basic hymn material is distorted and fragmented for artistic effect

the last movement, just wow

Remember reading some irritatingly condescending review of Schnittke in Perspectives of New Music where the writer referred to the composers reliance on canons at the minor 9th - wonder if he had this piece in mind.

Would not really call this polystylistic like the early symphonies or third quartet, seems more like Schnittke constructed the piece around the hymns according to his vision


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## Enthusiast

^ I agree that the polystylistic label doesn't apply well to this work. And I recognise the influence of Mahler on Shostakovich. But could you expand on Mahler's influence on Schnittke.


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## Enthusiast

It is an impressive, powerful and rather grim work. It starts quite darkly … and quickly becomes rather bleak … . You can hear the influence of Shostakovich but then (in the 2nd movement) the dam breaks and the music becomes extremely agitated. (I pictured the infamous mosquitos of Siberia with the Kronos Quartet's account!) The 3rd movement is dirge-like and seems to depict a rather grim struggle onwards. But is also meditative and may have religious connotations? The 4th movement provides the weight of the piece. It is still but not at all sublime! Again, I hear a picture of struggling onwards (this time with a sense of being almost exhausted) but there is a sense of the tragic as well.

The Tale Quartet is more intense and visceral than Kronos and is also more filled with colours. I greatly prefer it.


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## Shosty

Enthusiast said:


> It is an impressive, powerful and rather grim work. It starts quite darkly … and quickly becomes rather bleak … . You can hear the influence of Shostakovich but then (in the 2nd movement) the dam breaks and the music becomes extremely agitated. (I pictured the infamous mosquitos of Siberia with the Kronos Quartet's account!) The 3rd movement is dirge-like and seems to depict a rather grim struggle onwards. But is also meditative and may have religious connotations? The 4th movement provides the weight of the piece. It is still but not at all sublime!* Again, I hear a picture of struggling onwards (this time with a sense of being almost exhausted) but there is a sense of the tragic as well*.
> 
> The Tale Quartet is more intense and visceral than Kronos and is also more filled with colours. I greatly prefer it.


I totally agree with this. The final minute or so is almost like hissing but it also sounds like a hushed shriek (if that makes sense!). I've only listened to Kronos and Molinari and preferred the latter.


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## Bwv 1080

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I agree that the polystylistic label doesn't apply well to this work. And I recognise the influence of Mahler on Shostakovich. But could you expand on Mahler's influence on Schnittke.


Some good material here: https://alfredschnittke.wordpress.com/tag/mahler/

Alex Ross:


> The wellspring of Alfred Schnittke's music is, inevitably, that archetypal twilight time, the twenty-five years before the outbreak of the First World War. A great many contemporary composers are beholden to the original and much-lamented fin-de-siècle, but Schnittke has overheard the paradoxes as well as the clichés of that era. As a devotee of Gustav Mahler, for example, Schnittke has not sought to replicate that composer's luxurious immolation of Romanticism, but rather to expand upon his last-minute discovery (realized fully in the incomplete Symphony No. 10) that the conflict of dissonance and consonance is the forge of the most intense expression. An even more important legacy from Mahler is the recurrent juxtaposition of an elegiac tone and polystylistic satire - although that technique could have been derived as well from Mahler's non-identical twin, Erik Satie.
> 
> Nor could any young Soviet composer escape the shadow of Dmitri Shostakovich. But again, Schnittke does not ape the standard profile enshrined in today's concert-halls. In place of the monumental Fifth Symphony, it is the wilfully chaotic Fourth - hidden for decades in Shostakovich's desk-drawer - that has fascinated Schnittke the theorist. Also paramount is the Bolshevik radicalism of Shostakovich's sardonic ballets and film-scores of the early thirties, rather than the socialist-realist tragedy of the later symphonies. At the dawn of Lenin's brave new world, Shostakovich began the fusion of Mahlerian expressionism and quasi-dadaist satire that Schnittke was later able to complete in the dusk of Brezhnev's decrepit monolith.


Introduction by Alexander Ivashkin to A Schnittke Reader


> With Schnittke's music we are possibly standing at the end of the great route
> from Mahler to Shostakovich. Schnittke intensifies all their contrasts and articulates
> the strong ambivalence of their music. He drives this powerful post-Romantic
> tradition toward the very extremes of the late twentieth century, our fin de siècle.
> Shostakovich gave unique expression to the thoughts and feelings of those generations
> of Russians whose fate it was to live under the yoke of totalitarian power.
> Schnittke is often called the "man in between." A strong pulse of latent energy is
> undoubtedly inherent in both their musics, and extreme pessimism is common to
> both: many works by Shostakovich and especially Schnittke are "dying", dissolving
> in the world, fading into the distance of time. Indisputably, all of this has to do with
> time. Those wishing to listen to Schnittke's music in the future are by no means
> bound to feel all these concrete, time-connected features. But they will undoubtedly
> absorb the intense energy of the flow of the music, making it part of their being, part
> of their thinking, and part of their language.
> 
> Schnittke is a "man in between" different traditions. "Although I don't have any
> Russian blood," said Schnittke, "I am tied to Russia, having spent all my life here. On
> the other hand, much of what I've written is somehow related to German music and
> to the logic that comes out of being German, although I did not particularly want
> this. . . . Like my German forebears, I live in Russia, I can speak and write Russian far
> better than German. But I am not Russian. . . . My Jewish half gives me no peace: I
> know none of the Jewish languages, but I look like a typical Jew."


Edward Rothstein, The New York Times, 17 August 1998


> Schnittke was akin to Mahler, not just in the way both used earlier musical styles and folk melodies to poke throu gha scrim of modern melancholy, but because both also found something profound in the midst of these musical recollections and meditations. A constant struggle is going on. And for both, irony was a temptation, not a solution. Yield to it, and everything dissolves into insignificance. It may be that for Schnittke, post-modernism itself had a kind of devilish character to which he was drawn and against which he had to struggle, sometimes turning to the comforts of religious faith. (He was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church in 1982.)


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## flamencosketches

I've been slacking but I'm going to listen to the Schnittke quartet for the first time today. Think I'm going to start with the Lark Quartet on Arabesque.


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## Merl

I really couldn't do the Carter SQ (sorry, I hated it) but I have a recording of the Schnittke. I'll try and get to it in the next few days and share my thoughts.


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## Iota

Thanks for suggesting this, it's a very striking work that I hadn't heard before. I haven't much to add to the very interesting comments above. 

But two perhaps trivial things that occurred to me, were firstly that the transparency and etiolated emotion of the ending made me think of the closing to the Cello Concerto No.1, also very moving. Though there it is preceded by an epically dark journey, leading to a supernova-like outpouring of ecstasy.
And secondly, in a purely subjective way I find Schnittke's music emotionally and psychologically more nakedly exposed than any I think. Though it's a close toss up with Schumann.


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## flamencosketches

First impression (I'm a couple of days late on getting started):

This is really nice, intense, dramatic music. I am very much reminded of Shostakovich's 8th string quartet, the two works are birds of a feather, I think. Nice string textures & interplay, nice colors. I don't know if I'm really feeling a "true" tragedy. More like a picture or a reflection of one. But I will need to spend more time with the music. The recording was the Molinari on youtube. I think the sound on that upload is not good.


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## Simplicissimus

I've been listening to the Molinari Quartet video that Portamento posted. This is honestly the first Schnittke music I've experienced, though I've been hearing about him for years. It's not that I avoided him, just that before now the opportunity to listen didn't present itself and I didn't go out of my way. This has been very interesting and informative, and after a break-in period, enjoyable as well.

At first listen, I was not at all impressed. The composition struck me as being weird, dissonant, and creepy sounding for its own sake, like, "Ooo, look at the alien spaceship!" After a few minutes it started to sound more normal to me, within the parameters of modern SQ music like Bartok, Shostakovich, and Hindemith with which I am familiar. I listened along and followed the score (wow, I love doing that) and by the end it was engaging me more, though I wasn't picking up on anything like the composer's use of any aspect (tonality? harmony? polyphony?) of Russian sacred music, not that I even know what that would sound like anyway. The second listen was quite different and it did not sound weird and creepy anymore. In fact, it started to sound intriguing, and I think I even detected some hymn-like parts. It also became apparent to me how incredibly carefully crafted this composition is. The third listen didn't take me past what I apprehended during the second listen, though it kept my interest and was overall pleasant.

This has been a really great introduction to Schnittke for me. Thanks, everyone, for the enlightening comments, especially to Portamento who is obviously a real Schnittke expert.


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## Portamento

Here are more of Schnittke's thoughts on polystylism and his use of it. Some of you may find this interesting.

"The phenomenon of "polystylistics" in music existed long before I started to use the word and thought about the interaction of musical material in different styles. The first twentieth-century composers to make use of it were Ives and Mahler. And among the serialists one of the first to use it was Bernd Alois Zimmermann. And Henri Pousseur was fascinated by it-in the general context of serial organization he employs a whole system of interacting styles from different periods. The tonal quotations were like fragmentary remnants of a tonal world that had been absorbed into atonal music. Then came Luciano Berio's _Symphony_ and many other works that used musical quotations.

"The fact that I began to use a polystylistic method was brought about, first, by everything these composers had done before me, which I naturally could not ignore. But there was a personal element too. The polystylistic method, the use of interacting styles, gave me a way out of the difficult situation in which I had been put by having to combine, over a long period, work for the cinema with work "at the desk." There was a time when I simply did not know what to do: I had to drop either one or the other.

"My way out was not just on the surface, it lay at the heart of the problem, because what I did for the cinema was serious, not mere hack-work. In my early years as a composer I was even interested in writing real marches and waltzes, not stylized ones. It gave me a certain personal satisfaction. Then I reached a critical point when I no longer knew how to proceed. And the way out I found was the _First Symphony_, in which there is an interplay of film music and music written "at the desk"" (Ivashkin and Goodliffe 2002, 17).

Ivashkin, Alexander and John Goodliffe. 2002. _A Schnittke Reader_. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press.

As you can see, Schnittke's film scores are just as important in getting a sense for his aesthetic as the concert music. They are damn good, too:


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## Allegro Con Brio

I haven't heard this in a couple days, but I'll be sure to listen again tomorrow! In the meantime I'm just posting a reminder of the current order of nominators and letting *Shosty* know that it's his turn to pick for next week

04/26-05/03: Shosty
05/03-05/10: sbmonty
05/10-05/17: Merl
05/17-05/24: Eramire156
05/24-05/31: Knorf
05/31-06/07: seitzpf 
06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox


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## Shosty

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I haven't heard this in a couple days, but I'll be sure to listen again tomorrow! In the meantime I'm just posting a reminder of the current order of nominators and letting *Shosty* know that it's his turn to pick for next week
> 
> 04/26-05/03: Shosty
> 05/03-05/10: sbmonty
> 05/10-05/17: Merl
> 05/17-05/24: Eramire156
> 05/24-05/31: Knorf
> 05/31-06/07: seitzpf
> 06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox


Thanks for the reminder. I'm in the final stages of choosing a quartet and will post my choice on saturday or sunday.


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## Eramire156

*Spending the day with Alfred*

re listening to the second quartet, recordings by the Kronos, the Tale and the Quatour Molinari, and will listen to the Lark tomorrow, disappointed by the Kronos just seems to me to be a superficial reading of the score. Looking forward to next weeks quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Listening to Molinari for the second time right now. I agree that it is better than the Kronos. I don’t have much to add to my previous thoughts - this is a work shrouded in mystery, but which seems an entirely direct and personal utterance of great poignancy. The finale - playing right now - reminds me of staring up at the night sky on a perfectly clear evening, marveling at the seemingly random but sublime arrangement of the stars in the heavens. Very inspired music - almost a 20th century Heiliger Dankgesang. An excellent choice for this week.


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## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> I've been slacking but I'm going to listen to the Schnittke quartet for the first time today. Think I'm going to start with the Lark Quartet on Arabesque.


Yep, I've been rather slack in my listening this week. What I did hear, on my one play- through of the Molinari recording, was an almost Stravinskian quality to the music. Like you guys, I hear fragments of Mahler and Shostakovich in what feels like a sprawling, weeping hymn. However, I've only listened once.


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## sbmonty

I have listened to this quartet perhaps six times now. It does remind me of Shostakovich, particularly the feelings of angst and dread I seem to perceive. Agitation, sadness, grief and remembrance as well. I liked it enough to order the Molinari recording (I also ordered their companion cd, including the piano quartet, quintet and string trio). 
These past few weeks have been a bit of a gateway for me to explore 20th century music in more depth. Thanks for choosing and for all the thoughtful comments.


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## Knorf

I also ordered the Molinari disc of Schnittke Quartets. It'll be an age and a day before it gets to me though, apparently. (I mean, that's pretty understandable given the circumstances, but I can still grouse about it, right?)


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## Portamento

sbmonty said:


> I liked it enough to order the Molinari recording (I also ordered their companion cd, including the piano quartet, quintet and string trio).


That companion CD is great! It contains the _Piano Quintet_ and _String Trio_, which are also masterpieces in a similar vein.


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## Shosty

So this week's quartet is:

*Witold Lutoslawski - String Quartet
*






I hope everyone has the appetite for a bit more twentieth century, because I think this is an outstanding quartet and I really want to learn more about it.

Here's Wiki's intro about Lutoslawski


> Witold Roman Lutosławski (Polish: [ˈvitɔld lutɔsˈwafski]; 25 January 1913 - 7 February 1994) was a Polish composer and orchestral conductor. He was one of the major European composers of the 20th century, and one of the preeminent Polish musicians during his last three decades. He earned many international awards and prizes. His compositions (of which he was a notable conductor) include four symphonies, a Concerto for Orchestra, a string quartet, instrumental works, concertos, and orchestral song cycles.
> 
> During his youth, Lutosławski studied piano and composition in Warsaw. His early works were influenced by Polish folk music. His style demonstrates a wide range of rich atmospheric textures. He began developing his own characteristic composition techniques in the late 1950s. His music from this period onwards incorporates his own methods of building harmonies from small groups of musical intervals. It also uses aleatoric processes, in which the rhythmic coordination of parts is subject to an element of chance.
> 
> During World War II, after escaping German capture, Lutosławski made a living by playing the piano in Warsaw bars. After the war, Stalinist authorities banned his First Symphony for being "formalist"-allegedly accessible only to an elite. Lutosławski believed such anti-formalism was an unjustified retrograde step, and he resolutely strove to maintain his artistic integrity. In the 1980s, Lutosławski gave artistic support to the Solidarity movement. Near the end of his life, he was awarded the Order of the White Eagle, Poland's highest honour.


And here's Lutoslawski's programme notes for his quartet's premiere by LaSalle Quartet:


> My String Quartet lasts approximately twenty-four minutes, and contains two parts: introduction and main movement. The introduction opens with a recitative by the first violin followed by several separate episodes - as if framed - by groups of octaves (C - C). A short allusion to the opening recitative (this time in the cello) ends the movement in a kind of suspense. The main movement starts with a 'furioso'; its violent character dominates for quite a while culminating finally in a 'crisis' played in the highest registers of all four instruments. A kind of chorale in 'pianissimo' follows, then a longer section marked 'funebre'. The final episodes of the work constitute a commentary, as it were on what went on before.
> 
> In this Quartet I have sought to develop and enlarge the technique employed in the two preceding works, Jeux Venitiens and Trois Poèmes d'Henri Michaux the technique of what I call controlled aleatorism. It employs the element of chance for the purpose of rhythmic and expressive enrichment of the music without limiting in the least the full ability of the composer to determine the definitive form of the work.


In a letter to Walter Levin (LaSalle quartet's first violin) Lutoslawski wrote:


> "The work consists of a sequence of mobiles, which are to be performed one after another and - if there are no other directions - without any pauses. Within certain sections of time, particular performers play their parts completely independently from others. They must individually decide on the length of pauses and the way of introducing agogic changes. However, similar material in different parts should be treated in a similar way. (…) All the musicians should play as if they did not know what the others are playing, or at least as if they did not hear anything apart from their own performance. They must not worry that they are slower or faster than the others. This problem simply does not occur, as there are means at work that prevent any unwanted consequences of such freedom. If all the performers strictly adhere to the instructions included in their written parts, there cannot appear anything that the composer had not foreseen. A possible shortening or lengthening of the duration of any particular section of any instrument's part cannot change the end result in any significant way."


Then again from Wiki:


> For his String Quartet, Lutosławski had produced only the four instrumental parts, refusing to bind them in a full score, because he was concerned that this would imply that he wanted notes in vertical alignment to coincide, as is the case with conventionally notated classical ensemble music. The LaSalle Quartet, however, specifically requested a score from which to prepare for the first performance.[28] Bodman Rae relates that Danuta Lutoslawska solved this problem by cutting up the parts and sticking them together in boxes (which Lutosławski called mobiles), with instructions on how to signal in performance when all of the players should proceed to the next mobile.[29] In his orchestral music, these problems of notation were not so difficult, because the instructions on how and when to proceed are given by the conductor.
> 
> Lutosławski's called this technique of his mature period "limited aleatorism".[30] This controlled freedom given to the individual musicians is contrasted with passages where the orchestra is asked to synchronise their parts; the score for these passages is notated conventionally using bars (measures) and time signatures.


Here's a link to the article about the quartet on Lutoslawski.org

PrestoClassical lists the following quartets to have recorded this composition:
LaSalle Quartet (DG)
Silesian Quartet (CD Accord)
Tippett Quartet (Naxos)
Royal String Quartet (Hyperion)
Kronos Quartet (Nonesuch)
Alban Berg Quartet (Hansler)
Lutoslawski Quartet (Dux)
Budapest String Quartet (Urania)
Hagen Quartet (DG)
Most of these are available on Spotify and Idagio.

During the course of the week other than the Schnittke quartet I listened to several others to choose between them for this week. In the end I was torn between this one and Ligeti's second quartet. I chose the Lutoslawski but could easily have chosen the Ligeti which is a fantastic quartet.

I hope everyone enjoys.


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## Knorf

Good choice! The Lutosławski is an absolutely fantastic quartet, and one I haven't listened to in a few years. (I have the recording with the Hagen Quartet on CD, with Ligeti String Quartet No. 1.)


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## Portamento

Knorf said:


> Good choice!


Ditto. The Lutosławski and Ligeti are both masterful works, but I'm glad you went with what is arguably the lesser known.


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## Shosty

Portamento said:


> Ditto. The Lutosławski and Ligeti are both masterful works, but I'm glad you went with what is arguably the lesser known.


That's more or less why I picked it, but I do hope someone chooses the Ligeti somewhere down the line.


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## flamencosketches

Yeahhh!!! Great choice  I may have fallen off the wagon a bit with the Schnittke, but this is one I can really get behind.

The way I remember this quartet is as a dark, endlessly deep, reflective pool of water that we are first gazing at from afar, and then diving directly into, sinking deeper and deeper until somehow we emerge from the other side. Of course this is purely extramusical association that has nothing to do with the music itself, but I found it to be very sensual, evocative music. I suspect it will be a challenge for some of our listeners, but I hope folks find something to enjoy in the music.

I've just put it on now. The LaSalle Quartet on DG.










This work was my introduction to Lutoslawski, when I found this CD at a great used shop near the Braves stadium. He has since become one of my favorite composers.


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## flamencosketches

The last thing I'll say for now is that anyone who is looking for a recording might be interested to note that the Tippett Quartet recording is available on Qobuz for three dollars:










It also includes a quartet by Panufnik (correction: 3 quartets by Panufnik ...)who is not represented in my library at all, so this is a no brainer for me.


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## Iota

A last word from me on the Schnittke if I may ... just to say I do get a strong sense of obsession from his music, generally as well as in this quartet. He seems like a moth to the flame of his inner unrest, an urge that feels close to tearing him apart at times, his music is *so* intense at moments it feels almost as if the pencil's puncturing the manuscript paper. 
Whether he finds peace at the end of the quartet, or simply runs out of breath is not clear to me, and perhaps the same objective is achieved either way, a kind of release. 

I do find it moving, even if it hasn't yet bowled me over in the way the piano quintet, piano concerto or Concerto Grosso no.1 do, though I know them better. But very glad Portamento threw this in the pot, I'll be listening further.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Lutoslawski is one of those composers who I was literally just thinking that I need to start getting into, because I have heard nothing from him except his tiny, uncharacteristic "Little Suite." Another wonderful choice; again looking forward to exploring a musical area which I am only mildly acquainted with at best.


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## Eramire156

Great choice, I'll dig out my Kronos and Lasalle recordings.

A few thoughts on the Schnittke, I listened to the Lark, and Kronos both of which I found to be superficial readings, I also listened to the Molinari and Tale Quartets, both of which I gave a couple of listens. Both are committed readings, I found the Tale more angular approach more to my liking, but the Molinari on a different day could be my choice. As for the quartet itself I had a visceral reaction, whereas I found the Carter quartet more of a process piece of music, an interesting experiment intellectually, the Schnittke I felt emotionally, I was deeply moved at several points, I will be returning to both recordings soon, maybe even give another go at Life with an idiot, which has sat on my shelf unloved since my last attempt.

We seem to be firmly behind iron curtain, Dsch, Schnittke and now Lutoslawski.


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## flamencosketches

Eramire156 said:


> We seem to be firmly behind iron curtain, Dsch, Schnittke and now Lutoslawski.


At least we had a quartet by Elliott Carter, a good old, First World, capitalist composer, in the mix. That ought to keep us off of the sedition watchlists.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This one's going to be an uphill slog for me, folks. In all fairness I didn't like the Carter the first time either, but at least I was interested by what was happening. This seems very splintered, fragmented, isolated, with Carterian ideas (like the "popcorn" pizzicato sections) but with a much more minimalistic aesthetic and almost no melody lines to speak of. I couldn't focus my attention on it at all. But I'm optimistic that I'll get over the curve quickly as I did with Carter, and I'll stick with it to see if its seemingly disparate content can coalesce into something meaningful for me. Shosty, Knorf, and others who love this quartet; I'm curious to hear your personal reactions to this music!


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This one's going to be an uphill slog for me, folks. In all fairness I didn't like the Carter the first time either, but at least I was interested by what was happening. This seems very splintered, fragmented, isolated, with Carterian ideas (like the "popcorn" pizzicato sections) but with a much more minimalistic aesthetic and almost no melody lines to speak of. I couldn't focus my attention on it at all. But I'm optimistic that I'll get over the curve quickly as I did with Carter, and I'll stick with it to see if its seemingly disparate content can coalesce into something meaningful for me. Shosty, Knorf, and others who love this quartet; I'm curious to hear your personal reactions to this music!


I might be getting post-modern or whatever fatigue. This quartet says absolutely nothing to me. I'll also stick with it and hope for some opening tomorrow.


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## Bwv 1080

Have heard people opine that there is no need for the complex rhythms in Carter, Ferneyhough or other modernists, that the same effects could be achieved by letting the performer(s) improvise their own rhythm. But very different effect here than in Carter, you don’t get the sense of motion, rather the music becomes static. Not a quality judgement, I love Lutoslawski’s music (and Carter did as well, dedicating his solo clarinet work Gra to the composer). If you are coming to this qt without a familiarity with Lutoslawski, maybe listen to his Concerto for Orchestra, a Bartokian earlier work to see how good his chops were and then maybe Chain 3 or the Piano Concerto as examples of mature works that are more tightly composed than this piece, but still have the aleatoric passages


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> Have heard people opine that there is no need for the complex rhythms in Carter, Ferneyhough or other modernists, that the same effects could be achieved by letting the performer(s) improvise their own rhythm. But very different effect here than in Carter, you don't get the sense of motion, rather the music becomes static. Not a quality judgement, I love Lutoslawski's music (and Carter did as well, dedicating his solo clarinet work Gra to the composer). If you are coming to this qt without a familiarity with Lutoslawski, maybe listen to his Concerto for Orchestra, a Bartokian earlier work to see how good his chops were and then maybe Chain 3 or the Piano Concerto as examples of mature works that are more tightly composed than this piece, but still have the aleatoric passages


The "static" you mentioned is what I love about this quartet, stillness. Time seems to bend and slows down before totally coming to a standstill. The only other music I know of that achieves something similar (though by vastly different means) is Morton Feldman, and some of Prokofiev's late piano sonatas.

What you've said is great advice. All those pieces you named would be a great way to ease one's way into Lutoslawski before diving into the quartet. Honestly it's one of his most extreme and austere pieces. So much of his music, even the "controlled aleatoric", later music, is really quite accessible. Compared to, for instance, Schoenberg, or especially Carter, Lutoslawski was much easier for me to wrap my head around when I was first getting into 20th century music.

I'm going to listen to the Tippett Quartet recording in the morning. I'm really excited to hear other interpretations. It looks like they take it a bit slower than the LaSalle's.


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## Mandryka

I would appreciate something to read on the form of the music, the effect of the aleatoric sections on the sound of the music, Lutaslawski’s objectives and aesthetic ideas, the notation.


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## Shosty

Mandryka said:


> I would appreciate something to read on the form of the music, the effect of the aleatoric sections on the sound of the music, Lutaslawski's objectives and aesthetic ideas, the notation.


I hope these will help:

This link takes you to Lutoslawski.org's introduction to the quartet, which includes quotes by the composer.

You've probably read this but I'll include it here anyway: Aleatoric music from Wiki.

Here's a thesis on aleatorism in Lutoslawski's music. Though it's a bit long in 400+ pages, the abstract and introduction may contain some interesting information.

Steven Stucky and two members of Philharmonia Orchestra discuss Lutoslawski's use of aleatorism in his music in this YouTube video.


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## sbmonty

I'm giving this recording a listen. Lutoslawski is new to me as well.


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## Mandryka

Shosty said:


> I hope these will help:
> 
> This link takes you to Lutoslawski.org's introduction to the quartet, which includes quotes by the composer.
> 
> You've probably read this but I'll include it here anyway: Aleatoric music from Wiki.
> 
> Here's a thesis on aleatorism in Lutoslawski's music. Though it's a bit long in 400+ pages, the abstract and introduction may contain some interesting information.
> 
> Steven Stucky and two members of Philharmonia Orchestra discuss Lutoslawski's use of aleatorism in his music in this YouTube video.


Thanks.

I wonder how authoritative the paper on the Lutoslawski Society website is. In particular, when he says that the result of the aleatory music is to create



> fragile, capricious, loosely scattered and forming groups in time. It is a substance of ethereal beams of counterpointing instrumental parts with an indeterminate, but rich and shimmering microrhythm. This is what the texture of the Quartet is all about.


is this really what Lutoslawski's aim was? Or just something that the author subjectively hears.

Wolfgang Rubsam has experimented with introducing desynchronised polyphony in Bach's contrapuntal keyboard music. He once said that he found it very difficult, to make the voices be staggered and yet interact in a meaningful way. Lutoslowski's just leaves it all to chance, maybe because he has a different goal.

It must be impossible for any quartet to play this music twice, because each one will know what the others will do.

There's a similar issue in Cage's Song Books, where the performers are explicitly forbidden to know what the others are doing. But in that case there is supposed to be a director figure who makes sure that they aren't going off the rails (there's an amusing story about Julius Eastman and Peter Eötvös about this.)

I was interested to read all the stuff about narrative in the thesis. It maybe explains why I like the first movement of this quartet so much!


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## Shosty

Mandryka said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I wonder how authoritative the paper on the Lutoslawski Society website is. In particular, when he says that the result of the aleatory music is to create
> 
> is this really what Lutoslawski's aim was? Or just something that the author subjectively hears.
> 
> Wolfgang Rubsam has experimented with introducing desynchronised polyphony in Bach's contrapuntal keyboard music. He once said that he found it very difficult, to make the voices be staggered and yet interact in a meaningful way. Lutoslowski's just leaves it all to chance, maybe because he has a different goal.
> 
> *It must be impossible for any quartet to play this music twice, because each one will know what the others will do. *
> 
> There's a similar issue in Cage's Song Books, where the performers are explicitly forbidden to know what the others are doing. But in that case there is supposed to be a director figure who makes sure that they aren't going off the rails (there's an amusing story about Julius Eastman and Peter Eötvös about this.)
> 
> I was interested to read all the stuff about narrative in the thesis. It maybe explains why I like the first movement of this quartet so much!


That's an interesting point. Assuming the musicians actually follow Lutoslawski's direction, does the music lose its edge after several performances? It should be interesting to watch a quartet play it for the very first time, but is that even possible? What about rehearsing? Do they do it separately, each their own part?

Glad you found the thesis helpful.


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## flamencosketches

^That is all a good point. Do recording ensembles not rehearse this? The recording process surely must de-emphasize the chance nature of it all. I need to find my LaSalle CD and look at the booklet to see if they address this any. They premiered the work, so surely they will have played it together a good many times (or at least a few) before bringing it to the studio. 

I'm listening to the Tippett Quartet recording now. Wow, night and day from the LaSalle recording. The slower tempi really brings out the sensuality of the music. So far, I've been listening solely off of intuition and my own personal reaction. I've done zero reading on the structure and intention of the work, which I will try and do when I listen again tomorrow. That being said, even pushing all that theoretical mumbo jumbo about mobiles and aleatorism to the side, man, it's still a beautiful work.


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## flamencosketches

Does anyone have this recording? Thoughts? I've been looking at it for quite a while now. (Also curious about the three Penderecki quartets; I've only heard the first, which is awesome).


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## calvinpv

Mind if I join in on this thread? 

I first listened to the Lutoslawski about 5-6 years ago when I first got into modern/contemporary music. I didn't like it then; I found it too "extreme and austere" for my tastes, to borrow flamencosketches's words. But I just listened to it again now (the LaSalle recording), and I now think it's a very Lutoslawski-esque piece. Maybe five years ago, I just didn't yet have the proper perspective over the landscape of contemporary music, being able to see relationships and aesthetic similarities between different works and composers, etc. 

But I can now hear the "limited aleatoricism" (based on what I've read online, there's nothing mysterious about it; it's basically instruments playing ad libitum until you hit some designated cue in the score or receive one by the conductor). I can also hear the very Lutoslawski-esque gestures in the piece. He really loves to use these small cells -- maybe 4-5 notes -- with the same types of intervals in each, and he'll just repeat them over and over with minor variations. It gets to the point where you focus less on the pitch content and more on those intervals, which seem to remain fixed in a given passage. At least, that's what I experience. I don't know what this experience signifies except that it makes the music sound very clean and transparent despite its chaos.

Lutoslawski also loves to stack this technique over multiple instruments to create a mass texture effect, similar to what his compatriot Penderecki was doing. Maybe this is another reason why I originally thought this SQ was austere: it's harder to pull off mass textures with only four instruments. There are some passages in his 3rd or 4th symphony or piano concerto where you feel like you're getting hit with a wall of notes. But less so here.

I'll have to give the other recordings posted here a listen, to get some different perspectives. I own the Royal SQ recording, but I don't remember it, so I'll check that one out next. Also, I'll have to take a look at Shosty's set of links above.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Welcome to the thread, calvinpv The last couple weeks we’ve been listening through a series of 20th century quartets, it’s been quite an illuminating experience for me. Would you like to be added to the list of future participants to nominate a quartet?


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## Mandryka

Does anyone here think that the music in the quartet is disjointed? 

I've started to listen to another piece by Lutoslawski which I think is every bit as striking as the quartet, maybe more so: the three poems by Henri Michaux.


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## Portamento

I'll share my thoughts on Lutoslawski tomorrow after I give the quartet another listen.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Does anyone have this recording? Thoughts? I've been looking at it for quite a while now.


I have it. It's wonderful. The sound has been studio engineered with great skill. The interpretation is probing at the level of feelings expressed.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> I have it. It's wonderful. The sound has been studio engineered with great skill. The interpretation is probing at the level of feelings expressed.


I really want to get it. Damn it, I forgot Hyperion doesn't put their music on Qobuz, or seemingly anywhere. But I will likely order it.


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## Iota

After a first listen of the Tippett's recording, I'm not sure I got a sense of the overall shape, but I enjoyed listening to it, and there were four or five passages that really made me sit up and think wow. 

Broadly the 1st movement felt somewhat bucolic to me, something akin to the arbitrary but engaging sounds of nature by day. By contrast the 2nd movement felt more nocturnal, indeed some of the ear-catching moments sounded to perhaps have connections with Bartok's night music. 

But yes I certainly liked it and didn't feel I had to work hard to do so. I'll be listening again.


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## Bwv 1080

The Lutoslawski Qt's 2014 and 2011 recordings are my favorite, nice lyrical phrasing to the piece


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## Simplicissimus

Third listen to the Lutosławski SQ today. Nothing but random and rather unpleasant noise. Alas, I have failed or it has failed me. The Carter SQ we listened to a couple of weeks ago was austere and challenging, but it engaged me on both a natural, immediate level and then increasingly on an intellectual level. Not so this one. Sigh.


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## Knorf

seitzpf said:


> Third listen to the Lutosławski SQ today. Nothing but random and rather unpleasant noise. Alas, I have failed or it has failed me. The Carter SQ we listened to a couple of weeks ago was austere and challenging, but it engaged me on both a natural, immediate level and then increasingly on an intellectual level. Not so this one. Sigh.


Well, you know, no need to second-guess this. Clearly you gave the piece a fair hearing!

I admit I'm somewhat surprised to hear Lutosławski's Quartet is proving to be more challenging, to some of the responders to this thread, than the Carter Third Quartet was last week! For me, the energy and emotional impact of Lutosławski was immediate, when I first heard it a long time ago. I've been thinking about what to say to this thread about it that might be meaningful to you all, and I admit I'm not sure of myself, here.

I will say that the way Lutosławski's limited aleatory supports the projection of textures developed over harmony is one I find extremely compelling. Somehow, his instinct for timing events-dramatic changes or key moments-is electrifying to me, especially so in his Quartet. By textures I mean something much more tactile, or visceral, than the usual meaning of texture in music (homophonic, polyphonic, heterophonic, etc.) I suppose Lutosławski's textures are a kind of heterophony, but taken to, well not exactly an extreme, but something well beyond tradition. What his limited aleatory permits is an extraordinary development of texture and rhythm that would be insanely difficult if an attempt were made to notate it in conventional means. The subtlety of the texture's combination/projection with harmony to me is very engaging. And the notion of heterophony (if that's the best word)-texture itself-being a vehicle for large-scale musical development and drama (always supported by harmony*) is innovative to say the least. I find a parallel of sorts in Ligeti's "micro-polyphony." Sort of an exploded version of _Klangfarbenmelodie_, perhaps.

In the end, though, it's timing-literally in the sense of dramatic pacing-that works so well for me in Lutosławski. Perhaps it's worth mentioning that my entry into Lutosławski's music was via his Third Symphony, which is more approachable than the Quartet. The brilliant and colorful orchestration probably helps. Lutosławski's Third Symphony has become a modern classic, and one of the very few symphonies post-1950 that looks like it might be becoming something like standard repertoire. It's certainly getting played a lot these days!

*Lutosławski said, "the harmony must always move."


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## calvinpv

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Welcome to the thread, calvinpv The last couple weeks we've been listening through a series of 20th century quartets, it's been quite an illuminating experience for me. Would you like to be added to the list of future participants to nominate a quartet?


Yeah. I'd like to be on the list. I'll probably nominate a 20th century quartet myself, but I look forward to everyone's SQ choices from all eras.


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## flamencosketches

I'm taking a break from the Lutoslawski for today so I won't comment on the music much except to say that I've been thinking it sporadically throughout the day. But I wanted to say that I'm thrilled to see all the response that this music has been getting, positive and negative. It has been most illuminating. 

Like Knorf, I too am surprised to see that people are finding this more challenging than the Carter 3rd quartet. I wonder if this doesn't have something to do with the aleatoric aspects of the piece, either somehow inherently making for a more challenging listen, or if it's that people have a built-in distrust of chance music from bad experiences with Cage or something, and they're subconsciously projecting that onto their listening experience with the Lutoslawski quartet  Of course, it could be any number of things, but I for one found it much more approachable than the Carter, which I ended up falling in love with in any case, but it took some effort, whereas the sensuousness of the Lutoslawski quartet struck a chord with me immediately even before I had any idea what was going on with the technical side of things. All I know is that I hope people will find something to admire in this quartet, whose growing reputation as one of the crucial chamber works of the later 20th century is well deserved, IMO. 

Mandryka made a comment on another thread that quartets ought to try performing the Lutoslawski quartet over Zoom or another live streaming app during the pandemic, and that its chance nature and the composer's emphasis that the performers ought not to be influenced by the choices of their fellow performers makes this work particularly well-suited to that kind of performance. I suspect his comment was at least halfway in jest, but that's actually a great point. Has any currently active string quartet actually done this? I think it's a brilliant idea... 

PS. @Knorf, I found your comment about the texture of the music being in constant flux quite illuminating. I'm going to keep that in mind during my next listen (which will be the LaSalle).


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## Mandryka

I think that the second half of the second movement, the last 10 minutes of the second movement is particularly wonderful. This may reflect my taste for sparse textures.


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## Shosty

I had a very similar experience with Carter and Lutoslawski to what flamencosketches describes. It took me several listens and a couple of times watching a performance on Youtube before I came around to the Carter, and I didn't quite fall in love with it but I like it very much now and it's prompted me to explore Carter's music further. With the Lutoslawski the attraction was instant. I was hooked from the first few minutes of the first movement all the way to the end, which is what happened with the Schnittke quartet as well.

Anyway, so far I've listened to the Royal SQ, Tippett SQ and Budapest SQ and preferred the Tippett recording, though I also very much liked the Royal, which was my first listen. I'll look for LaSalle, Alban Berg and Hagen recordings next.


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## flamencosketches

Shosty said:


> I had a very similar experience with Carter and Lutoslawski to what flamencosketches describes. It took me several listens and a couple of times watching a performance on Youtube before I came around to the Carter, and I didn't quite fall in love with it but I like it very much now and it's prompted me to explore Carter's music further. With the Lutoslawski the attraction was instant. I was hooked from the first few minutes of the first movement all the way to the end, which is what happened with the Schnittke quartet as well.
> 
> Anyway, so far I've listened to the Royal SQ, Tippett SQ and Budapest SQ and preferred the Tippett recording, though I also very much liked the Royal, which was my first listen. I'll look for LaSalle, Alban Berg and Hagen recordings next.


That Tippett Quartet recording is something special. But yes, definitely seek out the LaSalle. Usually worth hearing the ensemble who premiered the work at least once, w/ 20th C. music...

Great to hear that I'm not alone in my response to the music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, I have to say I'm with seitzpf on this one. It's a no-go for me. The Carter, despite its complexity, worked as music for me because of the dazzling array of sound combinations and expressive ideas it conjured up; while the Schnittke seemed a legitimately personal outpouring of great poignancy. But this...what even is it? It seems about as close to pure randomness as you can get. I didn't find that the work inspired intense imagery in my head like the Carter and Schnittke, nor did it even engage me on a cerebral level. I think it would take many more listens to try and comprehend what the composer is trying to say. The other day I listened to Lutosławski's Concerto for Orchestra and it was like a totally different composer. A really enjoyable work in somewhat of a half-Bartok, half-Prokofiev style, but I can see why he wanted to ignore it once he moved into his limited aleatory phase. Certainly an interesting choice that I was grateful to hear, though. Of all the 20th century (non-electronic) classical music I have heard so far this is probably the most challenging for me.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I have to say I'm with seitzpf on this one. It's a no-go for me. The Carter, despite its complexity, worked as music for me because of the dazzling array of sound combinations and expressive ideas it conjured up; while the Schnittke seemed a legitimately personal outpouring of great poignancy. But this...what even is it? It seems about as close to pure randomness as you can get. I didn't find that the work inspired intense imagery in my head like the Carter and Schnittke, nor did it even engage me on a cerebral level. I think it would take many more listens to try and comprehend what the composer is trying to say. The other day I listened to Lutosławski's Concerto for Orchestra and it was like a totally different composer. A really enjoyable work in somewhat of a half-Bartok, half-Prokofiev style, but I can see why he wanted to ignore it once he moved into his limited aleatory phase. Certainly an interesting choice that I was grateful to hear, though. Of all the 20th century (non-electronic) classical music I have heard so far this is probably the most challenging for me.


Too bad. Don't give up on Lutoslawski as a whole. I found him to be one of the most accessible 20th century composers, and while of course your experience may vary, he wrote tons of great music all throughout his career, and I don't think you should write it all off based on one work.

I know that when you mentioned "pure randomness" you're just giving your personal reaction, but I hope you know how far from reality that is-just because Lutoslawski employs aleatoric techniques in a limited capacity doesn't mean he's leaving everything up to chance, à la late Cage. There's a definite structure to it; for me, listening to a couple of different recordings really made it easy to pick on.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> Too bad. Don't give up on Lutoslawski as a whole. I found him to be one of the most accessible 20th century composers, and while of course your experience may vary, he wrote tons of great music all throughout his career, and I don't think you should write it all off based on one work.
> 
> I know that when you mentioned "pure randomness" you're just giving your personal reaction, but I hope you know how far from reality that is-just because Lutoslawski employs aleatoric techniques in a limited capacity doesn't mean he's leaving everything up to chance, à la late Cage. There's a definite structure to it; for me, listening to a couple of different recordings really made it easy to pick on.


I definitely won't write it all off; after all, I've heard it said that this is one of his most advanced works. I think I will try a couple of his symphonies soon.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I definitely won't write it all off; after all, I've heard it said that this is one of his most advanced works. I think I will try a couple of his symphonies soon.


I would probably agree with that. Since you liked the Concerto for Orchestra, might I recommend the first symphony, which was one of the works that got me hooked on Lutoslawski. It's in a similar vein, kind of post-Bartók. All four are worth hearing but 2 and 3 are probably the most challenging of them. They're all completely different from one another.

Also maybe worth a try is Jeux vénitiens-it's one of his earlier "limited aleatorism" works, but I think its colorful orchestration and more manageable duration compared to the string quartet might make it more appealing if the SQ is too austere.


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## Enthusiast

I always thought I liked Lutoslawski's quartet but not as much as many of his other works. Somehow, though, I seem to have acquired four different versions (ABQ, LaSalle, Arditti and Royal). Right now - after listening to all four in one go! - I think there are two I prefer greatly and two that seem a little too "abstract" for me. But this may well have been a product of the way I listened to them and, perhaps, a growing appreciation of the piece.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I always thought I liked Lutoslawski's quartet but not as much as many of his other works. Somehow, though, I seem to have acquired four different versions (ABQ, LaSalle, Arditti and Royal). Right now - after listening to all four in one go! - I think there are two I prefer greatly and two that seem a little too "abstract" for me. But this may well have been a product of the way I listened to them and, perhaps, a growing appreciation of the piece.


The Arditti CD has a very nice performance of the Kurtag 12 microludes,

Two I like which no one's mentioned are Hagen and Leipzig,


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> The Arditti CD has a very nice performance of the Kurtag 12 microludes,
> 
> Two I like which no one's mentioned are Hagen and Leipzig,


I believe Knorf's been listening to the Hagen. I want to get my hands on it. Also includes the Ligeti quartets, no?


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> I believe Knorf's been listening to the Hagen. I want to get my hands on it. Also includes the Ligeti quartets, no?


Only Ligeti String Quartet No. 1, unfortunately, but an extremely fine performance of it. The disc also includes the Schnittke _Canon in memoriam Igor Stravinsky_.


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## Allegro Con Brio

For this upcoming week starting Sunday, it's *sbmonty*'s turn to choose. Current schedule of nominators:

05/03-05/10: sbmonty
05/10-05/17: Merl
05/17-05/24: Eramire156
05/24-05/31: Knorf
05/31-06/07: seitzpf 
06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox
06/14-06/21: calvinpv

And for reference, quartets listened to/discussed so far:

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)


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## Enthusiast

I went with the LaSalle recording this morning. I really like it and find it easier to relate to ("as music") than some of the others. It is intense and powerful but, more importantly, it makes sense to me! And suddenly this is wonderful music.









I'll try another one (or two) later.


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## sbmonty

I've been struggling a bit with this work. On the recommendation of Enthusiast I'm trying the LaSalle's version now. It maybe holds together a bit better for me. The recording quality is quite good.

Thanks for this week's recommendation. I'm enjoying the 20th Century journey.


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## sbmonty

With respect to next week's pick, are there any thoughts as to where we would prefer to go? I'm enjoying the modern choices lately, primarily because so many are new to me, and there is a fair bit of expertise on the site to enhance the listening experience. I have a couple of thoughts for this coming Sunday, but I wanted to throw this out to the group. Thoughts?


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## Mandryka

Schnittke 1981
Carter 1973
Lutoslawski 1965

There haven’t been any modern quartets, the most recent is the Schnittke and that’s 40 years old and was arguably a bit backward looking even then. 


My suggestion is something really contemporary.


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## Enthusiast

I listened to the Arditti recording this afternoon. I enjoyed it much more than a did a couple of days ago. It has some lovely moments but it is a bit uncompromising (as well, perhaps, as more refined) compared to the LaSalle and is probably not the best account to get into the work with.









I'll give the Royal and the ABQ a listen tomorrow and that will be it from me on this work. It's great that I have become much more deeply involved with this piece as a result of this thread.


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## Enthusiast

sbmonty said:


> With respect to next week's pick, are there any thoughts as to where we would prefer to go? I'm enjoying the modern choices lately, primarily because so many are new to me, and there is a fair bit of expertise on the site to enhance the listening experience. I have a couple of thoughts for this coming Sunday, but I wanted to throw this out to the group. Thoughts?


I take the point that something truly contemporary would be interesting but am conscious that many of the group following these quartets have not always been comfortable with quartets from 40+ years ago and feel they should be given a break! How about one of the Schumann quartets? Or perhaps a Bartok. Otherwise, it is your choice so you might choose something that has interested you and that you would like to get to know better.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Schnittke 1981
> Carter 1973
> Lutoslawski 1965
> 
> There haven't been any modern quartets, the most recent is the Schnittke and that's 40 years old and was arguably a bit backward looking even then.
> 
> My suggestion is something really contemporary.


I think you're conflating modern and contemporary. All three of those quartets are modern in the sense of modernism, like the Brahms quartet we did several weeks ago was Romantic.


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## Iota

I listened to the Lasalle recording today, having heard the Tippett Quartet a couple of days ago, and the differences seem palpable. The latter are two whole minutes longer in the 'Main movement' for example, and the way they each characterise/create the procession of episodes differs greatly. At times I found the music like a series of passages tracking a film you never get to see.

On this last listening I found the transitions, in the last movement in particular, absolutely mesmerising at times, like some intense soliloquy where the speaker seems to forget an audience is there, and drifts off into some very arcane region of their brain.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> All three of those quartets are modern in the sense of modernism.


Surely not the Schnittke.


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## Knorf

Mandryka said:


> Surely not the Schnittke.


For sure the Schnittke. Well, maybe post-modern. But for sure it includes numerous modernist tropes!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I'd be up for anything, and of course it's ultimately up to sbmonty. But the Schumann 3rd was suggested early on when we first started doing this, and I am not familiar at all with his quartets so that would be a great choice. Janacek or Bartok would be wonderful too.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> Surely not the Schnittke.


I would call it modern, but not avant-garde by any stretch. Maybe I have a wider definition for it than you do. Maybe post-modern, but that's a term I don't really understand in music.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I would call it modern, but not avant-garde by any stretch. Maybe I have a wider definition for it than you do. Maybe post-modern, but that's a term I don't really understand in music.


One way into the idea of postmodernism is through something George Rothberg said in "No Center" (1969) reprinted in William Bolcom (ed) _Aesthetics of Survival _(Michigan 1984)



> I stand in a circle of time, not a line. 360 degrees of past, present and future. All around me. I can look in any direction I want. Bella Vista.


I just don't think that this concept of time is present in that Schnittke piece, maybe in other things he did.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> One way into the idea of postmodernism is through something George Rothberg said in "No Center" (1969) reprinted in William Bolcom (ed) _Aesthetics of Survival _(Michigan 1984)
> 
> I just don't think that this concept of time is present in that Schnittke piece, maybe in other things he did.


What would you call it then, if neither modern nor postmodern?


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## Mandryka

Reactionary.

qkjxdbqakmjcdbgawmjkbc


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## Enthusiast

Haha ... that was a long time in coming. But for better or worse music from Bartok, Schoenberg and Stravinsky have been identified as belonging to the Modern era, an era that may have more or less ended by 1950. So, calling the Schnittke Modern and reactionary can both be true!


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## sbmonty

It is Saturday evening for some of our group, so I thought I would post next weeks choice so that it will available for tomorrow morning. I have considered a number of works these past few days. Bacewicz No. 4, Martinü No. 6, Langgaard No. 1 and Bartók No. 5. But in the end I have chosen *Robert Schumann's String Quartet No. 1 in A minor, Op. 41/1.*

Someone had mentioned they may pick Schumann a few weeks ago, but ultimately went with another work. I have long thought Schumann's 3 string quartets were a little neglected, and I certainly had little experience with them, so that mention prompted me to spend a few nights listening to 1 and 3 in particular.

Quartet No. 1 was composed June 4-24, 1842 during a burst of creative energy, following the intense study of quartets by Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven. Remarkably, Schumann composed his 2nd quartet in F Major simultaneously, and shortly after, composed his 3rd quartet. He completed all three in the space of 7 weeks, averaging 4 days/movement. They were presented to his wife Clara, with a private performance in their home on Sept. 13, 1842, to honour her 23rd birthday.

I. Introduzione: Andante espressivo-Allegro
II. Scherzo: Presto-Intermezzo
III. Adagio
IV. Presto

There is not much available on Wikipedia. I have enjoyed reading a summary of the work by James M Keller, in his book Chamber Music: A Listener's Guide. I recommend it. It is the source of the information I presented above.

One of the reasons I chose this particular work (other than I really enjoy it) is the Adagio. When I first heard it a couple of weeks ago, I thought it was an obvious reference to a very famous tune, but I cannot find any mention of this in my (not extensive) research. I would be curious to hear if you folks feel the same. I also enjoyed the counterpoint employed, especially in the first movement.

I hope you enjoy.


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## Mandryka

Here's my favourite ones


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## calvinpv

calvinpv said:


> But I can now hear the "limited aleatoricism" (based on what I've read online, there's nothing mysterious about it; it's basically instruments playing ad libitum until you hit some designated cue in the score or receive one by the conductor). I can also hear the very Lutoslawski-esque gestures in the piece. He really loves to use these small cells -- maybe 4-5 notes -- with the same types of intervals in each, and he'll just repeat them over and over with minor variations. It gets to the point where you focus less on the pitch content and more on those intervals, which seem to remain fixed in a given passage. At least, that's what I experience. I don't know what this experience signifies except that it makes the music sound very clean and transparent despite its chaos.
> 
> Lutoslawski also loves to stack this technique over multiple instruments to create a mass texture effect, similar to what his compatriot Penderecki was doing. Maybe this is another reason why I originally thought this SQ was austere: it's harder to pull off mass textures with only four instruments. There are some passages in his 3rd or 4th symphony or piano concerto where you feel like you're getting hit with a wall of notes. But less so here.


Just to finish up my thoughts from earlier in the week, now having heard both the LaSalle Quartet and the Royal Quartet performances:

I seemed to have nailed it regarding his fixing of intervals in a given passage. I read a few of his scores online for the first time while listening to some of his pieces (the SQ, but also Chains II and III as well as the Double Concerto). I can't claim to understand everything in them. But I did notice that Lutoslawski would restrict 2-3 pitches to each instrument or each instrumental family at a time, and musical phrases and gestures would be formed from those couple of pitches. That doesn't leave you a lot of room as to the type of intervals you can produce; basically one or two interval types and their inversions.

Also, the groups of pitches across the instruments were always mutually exclusive; in the case of the SQ, there are a couple of passages where all four instruments play a different set of three notes, yielding a primitive form of 12-tone music. I thought I read somewhere that Lutoslawski had some doubts about 12-tone music's viability or that he wasn't a fan of it, but I guess I was mistaken.

I wasn't quite right when I said earlier that he uses 4-5 note cells; actually, the length of them is quite variable, often expanding and contracting on a whim. I wonder why that is, why Lutoslawski chooses one musical phrase length over another at a given time? The only thing I can think of is that it serves as a countervailing force to his aleatoricism. Maybe he secretly wanted certain phrases to line up harmoniously and expanding/contracting them would make that more likely. I don't know.

Anyways, I'll stop here, seeing as the next quartet is up for listening. I am not familiar with the Schumann at all.


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## Iota

sbmonty said:


> One of the reasons I chose this particular work (other than I really enjoy it) is the Adagio. When I first heard it a couple of weeks ago, I thought it was an obvious reference to a very famous tune, but I cannot find any mention of this in my (not extensive) research. I would be curious to hear if you folks feel the same.


If you mean a reference to the slow movement of Beethoven's 9th, yes I feel absolutely the same! Though I wonder if it's conscious or not on Schumann's part. But every time I listen to that Adagio I always think of the Beethoven and am glad to hear (if it's so!) that somebody else does too!

I was listening to this quartet only a couple of weeks ago in very good recording with the Zehetmair Quartet. I also feel hints of Mendelssohn, particularly in the 2nd movement. Anyway a lovely work, nice choice!


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## flamencosketches

Good choice, not least because I have 3 recordings of the Schumann A minor quartet and I almost never listen to any of them 

Going to listen to the Lutoslawski one more time today. Probably the Tippett Quartet.


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## sbmonty

Iota said:


> If you mean a reference to the slow movement of Beethoven's 9th, yes I feel absolutely the same! Though I wonder if it's conscious or not on Schumann's part. But every time I listen to that Adagio I always think of the Beethoven and am glad to hear (if it's so!) that somebody else does too!
> 
> I was listening to this quartet only a couple of weeks ago in very good recording with the Zehetmair Quartet. I also feel hints of Mendelssohn, particularly in the 2nd movement. Anyway a lovely work, nice choice!


Exactly! Beethoven's symphony No. 9. III. Adagio Molto E Cantabile. Brahms referenced Beethoven with his first symphony. I wonder if this was somehow a tribute to his mentor, Schumann. Just a thought.


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## Knorf

Mandryka said:


> One way into the idea of postmodernism is through something George Rothberg said in "No Center" (1969) reprinted in William Bolcom (ed) _Aesthetics of Survival _(Michigan 1984)
> ...
> I just don't think that this concept of time is present in that Schnittke piece, maybe in other things he did.


I'd argue it is, but for sure is very much present in many other Schnittke works. Investigate, for example, the Third Quartet.

I'm eager to revisit Schumann's First Quartet. Lovely choice!


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## Allegro Con Brio

As I have said before I’m no fan of Schumann’s at all, but I’m not familiar with his quartets so methinks this will be good for me. It will be interesting to see if we can detect any overt Beethoven influences (as was already pointed out) considering his shadow still loomed over everything to the point that people were hesitant to even try to write symphonies and quartets.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> As I have said before I'm no fan of Schumann's at all, but I'm not familiar with his quartets so methinks this will be good for me. It will be interesting to see if we can detect any overt Beethoven influences (as was already pointed out) considering his shadow still loomed over everything to the point that people were hesitant to even try to write symphonies and quartets.


Exactly. Looking forward very much to this one! Terra incognita. I have a bulky collection of Schumann's symphonies and piano works but zero string quartets. Need to get sorted out with a Youtube or streaming recording, then I'm off to the races.


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## Bwv 1080

This is my favorite romantic string quartet, great choice


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## Bwv 1080

Also the Eroica Quartet has the best recording of the Schumann SQs


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## Knorf

Bwv 1080 said:


> Also the Eroica Quartet has the best recording of the Schumann SQs


This is the disc I own of these as well! I can't remember how I chose it, some review or other, I guess.


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## sbmonty

These are the two currently in my collection. I also have the Takács recording of No. 3 coupled with Schumann's Piano Quintet.


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## flamencosketches

sbmonty said:


> These are the two currently in my collection. I also have the Takács recording of No. 3 coupled with Schumann's Piano Quintet.


That Zehetmair is a killer. Love it

I also have Fine Arts Quartet on Naxos & Melos Quartett on DG


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## Merl

I have most available sets of the Schumann SQs and used to always place the Hagens at the top of the list for this particular SQ but the Zehetmair is now right up there. One of my favourite SQs. I love the scherzo and adagio.


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## Enthusiast

Just to finish off with the Lutoslawski, I listened to both the Royal and the Alban Berg Quartets' recordings. I liked the Royal a lot ... but have listened to too many too many times now to properly evaluate where I am with the various recordings. I think I like the Royal and the LaSalle recordings the most. I have certainly grown to like the Lutoslawski a lot more than I did!









And now on to the Schumann. I have two recordings - the really excellent and totally amazing Zehetmair recording and a recording by the Cherubini Quartet - and listened to both today. Of course, it is no contest but the music wins out. I do love Schumann!


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## sbmonty

Enthusiast said:


> Just to finish off with the Lutoslawski, I listened to both the Royal and the Alban Berg Quartets' recordings. I liked the Royal a lot ... but have listened to too many too many times now to properly evaluate where I am with the various recordings. I think I like the Royal and the LaSalle recordings the most. I have certainly grown to like the Lutoslawski a lot more than I did!
> 
> View attachment 135200
> 
> 
> And now on to the Schumann. I have two recordings - the really excellent and totally amazing Zehetmair recording and a recording by the Cherubini Quartet - and listened to both today. Of course, it is no contest but the music wins out. I do love Schumann!


I had a long work week last week, so really didn't give Lutoslawski as much time as I would have liked. I plan to come back to it and use this thread as a resource.

The Cherubini caught my eye. As did the Ysaÿe. I'll try the Cherubini Quartet soon.


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## Iota

I have and love that Zehetmair Schumann set too, and it's always been a mystery to me as to why they never recorded the 2nd quartet. A real shame.

That Royal String Quartet cover above of the Lutoslawski is very striking!


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## Knorf

The Schumann First is a quartet with quite an unusual tonal plan. The introduction to the 1st mvt. proceeds in A minor as expected, but then there is a transitional passage, quite extraordinarily excised directly from the Second Quartet, that modulates to F major! The sonata plan for the movement proceeds in F major with a C major second thematic group, and concludes in F major. Wait, what? I can't think of any other tonal sonata form piece that does this.

The 2nd mvt. Scherzo is utterly brilliant, and returns to the expected A minor tonality. The "Intermezzo," acting in place of a more conventional trio, is in C major, the relative major to A minor, of course.

The 3rd mvt., Adagio, opens with D minor, but by the meat of it is back to F major again. Wait, what? It's an extraordinary movement, reminding one more than a little bit of the Beethoven Ninth's slow movement. The music ventures into some very far off tonalities, even touching briefly on A-flat minor! The movement concludes in F major, with a couple more disquieting chromatic digressions in the coda. This harmonic and tonal restlessness of this movement remind me of late Schubert as well.

We're firmly back in A minor for the finale, with the second thematic group in the relative C major. Perfectly reasonable. But then, there is a lot of F major again, C-major's subdominant. There is a lengthy development, with D minor as an important but temporary tonal goal, and then G minor.

And the...wait, what's this? A recapitulation, with the thematic groups reversed, that brings back F major _before _ A minor?! Ok, that's seriously very cool.

The coda introduces A major, which we've heard in this piece as a harmony only. It's an amazing coda. I love the chorale-like passage just before the final stretto, which returns to D minor briefly before A major is reached again.

This is such a great piece! I am grateful for the motivation to revisit it and study it a little more carefully.

(If I got a little bit too Music Theory Professor here, please forgive me; I've been teaching music theory at the college level for 25 years.)


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## TurnaboutVox

Just to add rather belatedly to the discussion of the Schnittke 2nd quartet - I haven't been able to listen as much as I'd have liked , partly because I've been in poor health but partly because I originally misread which quartet we were focusing on that week. So I have got to know the third quartet very well (!) and can recommend the wonderful you tube performance by the young Gyldfeldt quartet, who have been taught by (amongst others) Günter Pichler of ABQ fame, as well as the mandatory Molinari Quartet. An ensemble to keep an ear on, perhaps.

As to the second quartet, I have the Kronos Quartet's version (Nonesuch, 1998) in my collection but haven't found this particularly illuminating of the music, seeming to me rather too high-intensity and harsh in tone (and for this reason I had put aside Schnittke's string quartets without listening very often, for many years).

I ordered a download of the Molinari Quartet's recording (Atma, 2013) for this thread and in addition listened to the also very fine Tale Quartet's recording on Spotify (BIS, 1994). 

I liked both of these performances very much: they seem to me to offer much more contrast between the tortured, grief-riven sections and the elegiac, Russian hymn-based ones than the Kronos quartet do. 

This may not be "avant garde" modern or post-modern music but it is hugely effective and communicative (a bit like that other Russian "conservative" Shostakovich).

Thanks to this thread I've now had a proper immersion in Schnittke's second and third string quartet, a brief listen to the first and fourth quartets and the "Canon in memory of Igor Stravinsky". I have also bought the Molinari disc containing the string trio and piano quartet and quintet, which awaits my attention now.


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## Josquin13

I've been inactive on this thread lately, as well, due to catching the coronavirus, which I've had now for about 9 or 10 days. I wouldn't recommend getting sick and listening to Alfred Schnittke's 2nd String Quartet. I couldn't take it. When you're ill with fever & living in isolation, it's the most awful, bleak, despairing music imaginable. I couldn't even get to the end of the quartet. Maybe there is something redeeming in Schnittke's final movement, but I won't be putting it back on anytime soon. Although I did feel a sense of empathy for Schnittke. He was obviously a gifted composer, and it made me sad to hear such suffering and despair expressed in his music.

Which raises a question about aesthetics. Should art be wholly about despair and bleakness, without any sense of hope or redemption or light? Is that the ultimate truth? I don't think so. But I guess each person must decide for themselves. For me, there must be a duality in art, just as there is in life. All the great writers, artists, & composers bear testament to the existence of a duality in their works & in the world. It can't be all one side or the other. That's not the truth. Although maybe in the last movement of the Schnittke's SQ, he does embrace something more redemptive--something beyond the blind notion that we merely live in a horrible state of misery and die in a horrible state of misery, and that's it.

I'll go back to the Schnittke quartet later at some point, after I've recovered, & give it another try. It's possible that C-19 has effected how I heard this music. I don't know.

Over the weekend, I moved onto Witold Lutoskawski's String Quartet, and found it more listenable. I listened twice--first to the recording by the La Salle Quartet, and secondly, to the live Tippett Quartet performance on You Tube (along with a brief attempt to hear the New Budapest Quartet's performance, until Google began to interrupt the performance with intermittent commercials--ugh!, they don't even wait until the end of a movement anymore!). 

Anyway, I liked Lutoslawski's quartet. I thought it was the most imaginative of the three 'contemporary' quartets that we've listened to so far. I found it playful and inventive. 

In my view, music is always evolving. It doesn't remain static. & here is a good example of how a composer has legitimately expanded the vocabulary of sound through a string quartet. There are string effects and textures in this music that Haydn and Mozart didn't imagine were possible, although maybe Beethoven had an inkling. On those terms, it's a fascinating quartet.


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## Knorf

Ugh, Josquin13, so sorry to hear you had to deal with COVID-19. I'm very glad you're feeling better! Stay healthy!


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## Josquin13

Knorf,

Thanks. Yes, I hope I'm through the worst of it now, as my temperature has been down for 3-4 days. I've been lucky. The virus does a number on the lungs, and my heart was also effected. I believe that taking a combination of 2000 mg (in the late afternoon) & then 1000mg (before bed) of Quercetin & liquid zinc everyday has helped me (along with other antivirals, such as mushroom extracts & Olive Leaf), and magnesium for the irregular heart beats or what were possibly vagus nerve spasms. (Not surprisingly, Quercetin & zinc are part of the current medical protocol--so they likewise must be seeing that the combination has some effect on the virus.) But the real test will be when I'm able to freely walk about without any shortness of breath or faintness--hopefully by the end of the week.

As for Robert Schumann's String Quartet, Op. 41, no. 1, I can remember a time when this music was badly neglected in the catalogue. Virtually no one was playing it. For example, back in the 1980s, the only available recordings I can remember were by Quartetto Italiano and the Alberni Quartet. Then, the Melos Quartett recorded a box set of the complete Schumann (& Brahms) Quartets for DG, and the Cherubini Quartet did the Schumann Quartets for EMI. Today, the situation has changed drastically, as there's now a glut of excellent recordings.

If anyone's interested, I'll be listening to the following Op. 41, no. 1 recordings, since I prefer leaner period (or period-like) textures in Schumann's SQs:

Quatour Terpsychordes: 



Quatour Hermes: 



Eroica Quartet:


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Yes, get well soon Josquin! Know that our tight-knit online listening community here is sending all sorts of encouraging thoughts/prayers from all around the world

As far as the Schumann, I sampled it today with the Takacs and actually really liked it! It seems more opulently melodic than typical Schumann, and as Knorf points out the harmonic invention is quite interesting. All four movements seemed of equal quality and the work seems like just the right length. Just like Schumann’s supposed deficiencies in orchestration that have been passed down in music books through the years, my AllMusic guide asserts that Schumann’s writing for quartet was non-idiomatic and pianistic, and that one commentator said it was “good music for string quartet, but not good string quartet music.” Interesting to hear what everyone’s thoughts are on this...anyway, looking forward to comparing some interpretations and hopefully taking another step in my appreciation of Schumann this week.


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## Knorf

I'm a bassoonist. There is almost nothing written idiomatically for the bassoon, not even by bassoonists! Not even by me! Everything is awkward. Forking B-flat major is awkward!

So I have little patience for whiny string players. If the music is great, practice it until you can play it. That's it. In fact, practice until you can play it even if the music _isn't_ great. It will make you a better musician, and a better person.

A terrific cellist I know said, after playing the premiere of a unaccompanied cello piece she commissioned from me, "today's awkward is tomorrow's virtuosity." Bless her.


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## Allegro Con Brio

In all honesty, Schumann didn't seem totally comfortable in any idiom - as a pianist, whenever I try to play one of his miniatures my hands feel like they've been digging up earth for an hour. Huge, chunky, awkward chords; scores cluttered up with unnecessary notes that are really hard to read, complex inner voices that are hard to voice against the onslaught of thick textures...I'm sure the music _is_ worth the effort, but I haven't yet tried to seriously tackle too much of it besides those "Album for the Young" pieces that every intermediate student learns. I do think there's something quintessentially Romantic about Schumann's style of writing though. Maybe he knew that his figurations were awkward and difficult, but decided not to compromise his artistic vision? "I'll stretch the performer to the limits, limits be darned!" I've heard the same concept applied to his symphonies, arguing that he did in fact know what he was doing and that signature style is what makes his music what it is.


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## Euler

Knorf said:


> The Schumann First is a quartet with quite an unusual tonal plan. The introduction to the 1st mvt. proceeds in A minor as expected, but then there is a transitional passage, quite extraordinarily excised directly from the Second Quartet, that modulates to F major! The sonata plan for the movement proceeds in F major with a C major second thematic group, and concludes in F major. Wait, what? I can't think of any other tonal sonata form piece that does this.


Thanks for the great post! As a cello geek, may I point to Beethoven's C major cello sonata as another work with a slow tonic intro to a submediant allegro?

I love this Schumann quartet. The introduzione almost feels like an independent movement, firmly resolved instead of ending on the dominant of a or F. Interesting that Mad Bob added it after sketching the full quartet, repurposing the following F major sonata-allegro into a super-sized dissonance. To me the allegro seems tonally formal in itself, albeit with an extremely delayed transition to the dominant (a nod to Haydn?).

I guess Schumann drew inspiration from Beethoven's Op. 132 quartet -- there the opening allegro moves from A minor to F major for its secondary key, while the epic third movement mines F lydian. But Schumann takes it further with 2 key areas competing for supremacy through the whole work. Shades of his song "Im Wunderschoenen Monat Mai" which seems to be in A major and F# minor all at once.

The quartet's finale is the most harmonically interesting to me, but I won't bore everyone about that 

How about the gypsy folk hues in the finale, the Hungarian and Croatian influences? And the dancing 6/8 overdose in the first half? And the neat fugal writing? It's such a rich piece of music.


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## Knorf

Euler said:


> As a cello geek, may I point to Beethoven's C major cello sonata as another work with a slow tonic intro to a submediant allegro?


Interesting! I don't know those sonatas as well as I should. And the Fournier/Gulda album has just been released on Blu-ray Audio, too! I've had my eye on that, probably should get it.

[Brief pause for score study]
Beethoven Op. 102 No. 1 is indeed similarish. It's a C major sonata, and remains in C major through the introduction. When the exposition proper opens, it starts abruptly in A minor! There's a move to G major, which would be the dominant of C, and then E Major as V of A at the repeat. The recapitulation...whoa. Returns to A minor, but the second thematic area begins in F major! It does get back to A minor, and it ends there.

Good example for a precedent! (Albeit with a reversal of major and minor modes.)

I agree that other than being supposedly in A minor, the F major formal sonata plan for Schumann Op. 41, No. 1, 1st movement is quite straightforward.



> I love this Schumann quartet.


Me, too. I appreciate it now more than ever. Great comments!


----------



## Shosty

Josquin13 said:


> I've been inactive on this thread lately, as well, due to catching the coronavirus, which I've had now for about 9 or 10 days. I wouldn't recommend getting sick and listening to Alfred Schnittke's 2nd String Quartet. I couldn't take it. When you're ill with fever & living in isolation, it's the most awful, bleak, despairing music imaginable. I couldn't even get to the end of the quartet. Maybe there is something redeeming in Schnittke's final movement, but I won't be putting it back on anytime soon. Although I did feel a sense of empathy for Schnittke. He was obviously a gifted composer, and it made me sad to hear such suffering and despair expressed in his music.
> 
> Which raises a question about aesthetics. Should art be wholly about despair and bleakness, without any sense of hope or redemption or light? Is that the ultimate truth? I don't think so. But I guess each person must decide for themselves. For me, there must be a duality in art, just as there is in life. All the great writers, artists, & composers bear testament to the existence of a duality in their works & in the world. It can't be all one side or the other. That's not the truth. Although maybe in the last movement of the Schnittke's SQ, he does embrace something more redemptive--something beyond the blind notion that we merely live in a horrible state of misery and die in a horrible state of misery, and that's it.
> 
> I'll go back to the Schnittke quartet later at some point, after I've recovered, & give it another try. It's possible that C-19 has effected how I heard this music. I don't know.
> 
> Over the weekend, I moved onto Witold Lutoskawski's String Quartet, and found it more listenable. I listened twice--first to the recording by the La Salle Quartet, and secondly, to the live Tippett Quartet performance on You Tube (along with a brief attempt to hear the New Budapest Quartet's performance, until Google began to interrupt the performance with intermittent commercials--ugh!, they don't even wait until the end of a movement anymore!).
> 
> Anyway, I liked Lutoslawski's quartet. I thought it was the most imaginative of the three 'contemporary' quartets that we've listened to so far. I found it playful and inventive.
> 
> In my view, music is always evolving. It doesn't remain static. & here is a good example of how a composer has legitimately expanded the vocabulary of sound through a string quartet. There are string effects and textures in this music that Haydn and Mozart didn't imagine were possible, although maybe Beethoven had an inkling. On those terms, it's a fascinating quartet.


I'm glad you liked the Lutoslawski, it really is a wonderful composition. I wish you a speedy recovery from c-19. I hope we all get rid of it soon!
I'm not familiar with the Schumann at all, so I am excited to listen to it. I'll listen to Cherubini quartet's recording tomorrow.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Which quartet are we on now?


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## Knorf

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Which quartet are we on now?


Robert Schumann, Quartet in A minor, Op. 41, No. 1.


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## Bwv 1080

Josquin13 said:


> I've been inactive on this thread lately, as well, due to catching the coronavirus, which I've had now for about 9 or 10 days. I wouldn't recommend getting sick and listening to Alfred Schnittke's 2nd String Quartet. I couldn't take it. When you're ill with fever & living in isolation, it's the most awful, bleak, despairing music imaginable. I couldn't even get to the end of the quartet. Maybe there is something redeeming in Schnittke's final movement, but I won't be putting it back on anytime soon. Although I did feel a sense of empathy for Schnittke. He was obviously a gifted composer, and it made me sad to hear such suffering and despair expressed in his music.
> 
> Which raises a question about aesthetics. Should art be wholly about despair and bleakness, without any sense of hope or redemption or light? Is that the ultimate truth? I don't think so. But I guess each person must decide for themselves. For me, there must be a duality in art, just as there is in life. All the great writers, artists, & composers bear testament to the existence of a duality in their works & in the world. It can't be all one side or the other. That's not the truth. Although maybe in the last movement of the Schnittke's SQ, he does embrace something more redemptive--something beyond the blind notion that we merely live in a horrible state of misery and die in a horrible state of misery, and that's it.
> 
> I'll go back to the Schnittke quartet later at some point, after I've recovered, & give it another try. It's possible that C-19 has effected how I heard this music. I don't know.
> 
> Over the weekend, I moved onto Witold Lutoskawski's String Quartet, and found it more listenable. I listened twice--first to the recording by the La Salle Quartet, and secondly, to the live Tippett Quartet performance on You Tube (along with a brief attempt to hear the New Budapest Quartet's performance, until Google began to interrupt the performance with intermittent commercials--ugh!, they don't even wait until the end of a movement anymore!).
> 
> Anyway, I liked Lutoslawski's quartet. I thought it was the most imaginative of the three 'contemporary' quartets that we've listened to so far. I found it playful and inventive.
> 
> In my view, music is always evolving. It doesn't remain static. & here is a good example of how a composer has legitimately expanded the vocabulary of sound through a string quartet. There are string effects and textures in this music that Haydn and Mozart didn't imagine were possible, although maybe Beethoven had an inkling. On those terms, it's a fascinating quartet.


Glad your back. FWIW I find Schnittke's music deeply spirtual, even religious. The 2nd Qt is dedicated to the memory of his friend, the filmmaker Larissa Efimovna Chepitko, so it is bleak. The fourth movement of the SQ does resolve and transcend the anguish in the first three movements in a quite moving way.


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## Merl

I've been listening to Schumann's Quartet all week (it's always been one of my favourite SQs) and thought I'd share some of my thoughts on a few of the recordings I've been listening either from my own collection or via Spotify. Hope no-one minds. Don't expect intelligent musical theory as these are just emotional responses to the recordings. These opinions aren't hard and fast, btw, I often change my mind but hey ho....and yes I really have listened to them all (some twice as I enjoyed then so much the first time). As you know, I can binge-listen to command those pieces I love.:lol:

*Hagen* - Beautifully expressive playing. This was my benchmark in this work and previously got more play than many others. Someone once called this a 'prefect' performance. Too perfect? Well no but others do have more bite however it's difficult not to fall in love with the Hagen's vision and gorgeous detail. It's still a great recording.
*Dover* - An American quartet I know little about but I really warmed to this one and will have to investigate more of their recordings. They might not have the Hagen's beautiful tone but they do make an impressive case, aided by a really tight sound, nice flow and a lovely, zippy 4th movement. 
*Takacs* - Much as I love their Beethoven SQ cycle I found this a let-down. Too lovingly played and not so much a punch but a gentle slap on the cheek from this performance. If this were paint it would be magnolia.
*Gabrielli* - Quite old-style, solid performance but that's not a bad thing. Although not the best here there's lots to admire.
*Stradivarius* - Nice graded dynamics but wasn't wholly convinced by the ensemble. Quite brisk and pleasant enough.
*Doric* - I don't have this one (I thought I had it) but I will remedy that as I thoroughly enjoyed this performance. They dig in deep when it matters in the scherzo and the presto is taken at a fair clip and is sensational. Fantastic! I'm off to go and order it. Up there with the Eroicas.
*Melos* - Immaculately played (not surprisingly) and plenty of thrust and beauty in the slower moments. A very good account. If you're familiar with the Melos Quartet in Beethoven this is similar. They rarely let you down.
*Modigliani* - I know the Modigliani complete set of the quartets well. I'll just say that of the 3 SQs they pull this one off the best and it's a very impressive performance. In fact, one of my favourites. I'm much less convinced by the performances of 2&3 in this set but this one is very compelling.
*Petersen* - A strange one as it kind of builds momentum as it goes on. The Petersens take quite a romantic view to the work at first and so whilst I wasn't totally convinced by the scherzo, from then on things heat up and the final movement moves up a few gears and is terrific. A slow-burner.
*Zehetmair* - Dance-like in the quicker movements. Always moving forward with dynamic, propulsive rhtyhm and a sound to die for. Superb disc. Such a shame that there's no No.2 on this as 1&3 are stellar. Massively recommended unless you're deaf or are one of those that insist that everything modern (recorded since WW2) is 'rushed' and 'unemotional'.
*Eroica *- As I said earlier, the Hagens were my go-to in Schumann SQs until this came along. THe Eroicas leap right in and challenge you to listen to these works anew. Far from a romantic view of No,1 this will not be easy listening for some but it has everything. Sharp, incisive playing, plenty of umph and glorious detail in the adagio all wrapped in fantastic recorded sound. The new benchmark for me and a recording that made me fall in love with this SQ all over again.
*Fine Arts* - Vibrant, beautiful and unashamedly old-style account. The Fine Arts Quartet have a rich history and this is a very fine effort from an impressive set. 
*Cherubini* - A bit lightweight in execution. Very sweet sounding but although that works in the lighter moments there's no depth and bite for me, even if there is penty of urgency.

Missed out plenty I have or have heard (St. Lawrence, etc) but thought these would suffice for now.


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## Bwv 1080

Agree with you on the Takacs, maybe its me, but seemed like they thought they were playing late Beethoven quartets and the rhythmic drive was not there


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## sbmonty

I am wishing you a speedy recovery too Josquin.

I am giving this a listen right now. A sinewy account. I like it so far:


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## Mandryka

sbmonty said:


> A sinewy account.


Maybe that's a way into understanding the reception of this quartet, at least in the first movement -- musicians divided along an axis with fluidity and flexibility at one extreme, rugged and incisive phrasing at the other.

Someone was telling me about a new release of the Schumann quartets by Quatuor Terpsycordes, where they say that their primary research into the manuscripts have led them to use a way of phrasing which "is very reminiscent of song". But I can't find any details of this research.


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## flamencosketches

I already have three recordings of this work, but all this talk of the Eroica Quartet has me very curious. It's a period instruments recording of some sort I take it? The samples sound good to me...

Going to listen to the Zehetmair soon.

@Josquin, thanks for your thoughts, always interesting—get well soon!


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## flamencosketches

The Zehetmair performance is totally musical. Everything phrase fits so nicely into its response, like Tetris blocks falling into place. Another way to describe it is like a soft-bristled brush grazing over my eardrums. Everything about this performance and recording is to my taste, they really bring out the best of it. I greatly prefer this to the Melos recording I heard yesterday, which is indeed good. Why could the Zehetmair Quartett not have completed the cycle with the 2nd quartet?!

I wish Schumann wrote more quartets. At least we have the piano trios, the piano quintet, the violin sonatas, etc...


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## Knorf

flamencosketches said:


> I already have three recordings of this work, but all this talk of the Eroica Quartet has me very curious. It's a period instruments recording of some sort I take it?


Correct.

I don't know how many recordings of Schumann string quartets you need, but I think it seems that many of us think the Eroica Quartet disc is terrific, even groundbreaking. I certainly do.


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## Bwv 1080

Knorf said:


> Correct.
> 
> I don't know how many recordings of Schumann string quartets you need, but I think it seems that many of us think the Eroica Quartet disc is terrific, even groundbreaking. I certainly do.


Some background info:



> The Eroica Quartet's intention was to rediscover and adopt the authentic string quartet performance styles for Romantic music. By the time it was formed, the period instrument movement (which began with interest in the music of the eighteenth century and generally worked backwards) had begun to show an interest in early nineteenth century music. Since there was a radical break in musical style and in the technology of instrument building that roughly coincided with the latter half of Beethoven's life, many accepted the need for "period" and "authentic style" performances of earlier music, but did not accept it for the post-Beethoven Romantic age.
> 
> However, in working with conductor John Eliot Gardiner and his Orchestre Romantique et Révolutionnaire, the members of the Eroica came to realize that another great change in performance style had taken place at the beginning of the twentieth century that obscured the prior way of performing music of the Romantic era. In string playing, a key to that realization is a 1921 essay by the violin teacher Leopold Auer, unsuccessfully trying to convince string players not to emulate Auer's greatest pupil, Jascha Heifetz, in applying vibrato continuously, but to apply it sparingly at specific moments for expressive effect. The players also noted, from very old recordings or singers and string players, a much greater tendency to use portamento -- slides from one note to another -- and to play on open strings than had been the norm for decades. In addition, the bar line and beat were evidently not as rigid. For insight, they began researching not (as modern players do) the Urtexts (copies of unedited composers' manuscripts), but the numerous published editions of major performers. In these documents great players added their own bowings, dynamic marks, and fingerings to the composers' texts. Where, for instance, the same finger is indicated to be used on successive notes under a slur, it is clear that the given performer used a portamento.
> 
> Among the most important figures in the Eroica's research was Ferdinand David (1810 - 1873), a great friend of Felix Mendelssohn, a very busy producer of such "editions," and the concertmaster of the great Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. In their research they were guided by consultations with Dr. Clive Brown, a musicologist specializing in Romantic performance style.


https://www.allmusic.com/artist/eroica-quartet-mn0001653097/biography


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## Josquin13

Thanks everyone, for your further well wishes. I appreciate it.

Bwv 1080--You've convinced me that I need to give the Schnittke SQ2 another chance, and hear the last movement for the first time. When I'm feeling better...

Merl's post reminded me that I have heard the Dover Quartet's recording of the Schumann, on You Tube, and it's excellent, I agree. I've also heard good things about the recent recording by the Engegård Quartet recording on BIS, which sbmonty mentions--that is, in addition to Quatour Terpsychordes, Quatour Hermes, & the Eroica Quartet, which I provided You Tube links for on the previous page.

Dover Quartet: 




By the way, the Zehetmair Quartet recording won the 2003 Gramophone Recording of the Year (& best Chamber Music recording for 2003), and was the BBC Radio's "Building a Library" choice in January, 2019, as well--which is impressive.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Heard the Zehetmair today. A wonderful performance as others have noted, and the music is more instantly appealing to me than most of Schumann. There is still that frustrating lack of interesting melodies and unclear development (to my ears) that I always find so problematic in Schumann, but I like the way the music flows and some of the counterpoint is downright lovely. I like the finale best, especially the ending. I don't have too many profound thoughts on this one except to say I'm liking it quite a bit if not a particular standout among the rich literature of Romantic quartets. Doric and Eroica are on my must-hear for the rest of the week.

I do need a quick headcount here as to who would be willing to nominate in the future, as a few that are not on our list have participated or shown interest to some degree. *Richannes Wrahms*, *Euler*, and *Iota*: would you be willing to nominate a weekly quartet down the road? I'd ideally like to keep this little listening group going for as long as possible!


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## flamencosketches

^Funny, the endless brilliant melodies are one of my favorite things about Schumann, and this quartet is no exception. He was nearly as gifted a melodist as Schubert. I wonder what works you heard first by Schumann that created this lasting first impression for you.


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## Josquin13

"He was nearly as gifted a melodist as Schubert."

I actually prefer Schumann's songs to those by Schubert; although of course it's a close call. For me, personally, it's not so much that he wasn't a good or memorable melodist, as it is that his music tends to be so episodic and mercurial that it can be challenging for the performer to tie it all together, and make it seem like one unified piece of music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> ^Funny, the endless brilliant melodies are one of my favorite things about Schumann, and this quartet is no exception. He was nearly as gifted a melodist as Schubert. I wonder what works you heard first by Schumann that created this lasting first impression for you.


I know, my impressions are so different compared to most. I find his melodies extremely bland and uninteresting, making it hard for me to follow his development of them. When he does have a good melody, I think he repeats it too much and does too little with it. I was only familiar with his piano music for quite a while and was ready to totally write him off based on how poorly he held my attention, but then I heard the Piano Quintet, Cello Concerto, and Dichterliebe which I all love. I'm so-so on the piano concerto, like a couple solo works (Fantasie in C, Ghost Variations, Symphonic Etudes) but still _really_ dislike his symphonies which I find intensely boring. Different ears, etc. but I'm fairly frustrated that I don't hear the gorgeous melodies that everyone says his music has! I find Brahms and Schubert to be the greatest melodists.


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## Josquin13

That's interesting. I've never thought about Schumann's music in that way. Do you feel the same way about the Andante cantabile movement from his Piano Quartet in E flat, Op. 47?


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## 20centrfuge

Hi everybody, I just found out about this thread from a comment by Allegro Con Brio. I admit that my depth with SQ’s is minimal but I’d enjoy exploring these with all of you if that’s ok.

By chance, is there a list of the quartets that have been explored already?


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## Allegro Con Brio

20centrfuge said:


> Hi everybody, I just found out about this thread from a comment by Allegro Con Brio. I admit that my depth with SQ's is minimal but I'd enjoy exploring these with all of you if that's ok.
> 
> By chance, is there a list of the quartets that have been explored already?


Welcome to the thread! We just hang out and listen to great music - that's all there is to it Would you like your name to added to the list of future quartet nominators? Here's our list of quartets so far:

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> That's interesting. I've never thought about Schumann's music in that way. Do you feel the same way about the Andante cantabile movement from his Piano Quartet in E flat, Op. 47?


That's gorgeous. The Piano Quartet and Quintet are works I connect instantly with. I guess I just don't seem to hear those sort of florid, bel canto melody lines in his music most of the time.


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## 20centrfuge

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Welcome to the thread! We just hang out and listen to great music - that's all there is to it Would you like your name to added to the list of future quartet nominators?


Sure! I'd love to participate!


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## Mandryka

Op 41/1 seems to me like a very attractive and well made quartet in a style which is pretty conventional for the middle of the c19. It’s agreeable. Is there anything in it as experimental as, for example, the variations movement from op 41/2?


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## 20centrfuge

My background is in trumpet and I currently listen to post 1900 music 90% of the time, so when I listen to something from the romantic era, for example, I have to get used to the lack of dissonance. It takes a few repetitions to get accustomed to the harmonies and feel of the music.

I’ll also have to try not to think of Schumann as “Brahms - The Prequel”. He was clearly a very talented composer. I know some, but not much of his music.

BTW, I may need to learn some of the lingo, like, what is the term for the technique utilized in the 2nd movement when there are staccato notes in quick succession- the bow is skipping across the string, right? What’s the term for that?


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## Knorf

20centrfuge said:


> BTW, I may need to learn some of the lingo, like, what is the term for the technique utilized in the 2nd movement when there are staccato notes in quick succession- the bow is skipping across the string, right? What's the term for that?


Jeté, or ricochet.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I know, my impressions are so different compared to most. I find his melodies extremely bland and uninteresting, making it hard for me to follow his development of them. When he does have a good melody, I think he repeats it too much and does too little with it. I was only familiar with his piano music for quite a while and was ready to totally write him off based on how poorly he held my attention, but then I heard the Piano Quintet, Cello Concerto, and Dichterliebe which I all love. I'm so-so on the piano concerto, like a couple solo works (Fantasie in C, Ghost Variations, Symphonic Etudes) but still _really_ dislike his symphonies which I find intensely boring. Different ears, etc. but I'm fairly frustrated that I don't hear the gorgeous melodies that everyone says his music has! I find Brahms and Schubert to be the greatest melodists.


Keep listening, you'll hear them.  You're well on your way if you're attuned to Dichterliebe already. Ignore the symphonies for now if they're not doing it for you.


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## flamencosketches

Josquin13 said:


> "He was nearly as gifted a melodist as Schubert."
> 
> I actually prefer Schumann's songs to those by Schubert; although of course it's a close call. For me, personally, it's not so much that he wasn't a good or memorable melodist, as it is that his music tends to be so episodic and mercurial that it can be challenging for the performer to tie it all together, and make it seem like one unified piece of music.


I do too, sacrilege though it may be. And I think that's true what you said about the episodic nature of his music, especially some of his piano works.


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## calvinpv

For me, this is the first time hearing any chamber music by Schumann. I'm somewhat familiar with his piano music, including the Piano Concerto, but I'm with Allegro Con Brio here, his music (at least, the piano music) is a little too thick and stocky for my tastes. I don't so much have a problem with the melodies -- they're as good as any others from the early Romantic era -- but rather with the supporting cast. Chords feel too closed up and compact, there's a lot of imitation in the different voices, a lot of repeating textures, etc. Almost like I can hear a titanic struggle in Schumann to come up with material that can flow naturally and effortlessly and develop organically. At least, that's the perception I'm always getting.

But anyways, I took a listen to the Cherubini quartet on youtube (because it had a score to read along with) and then listened so far to the first movement of the Eroica recording after reading the praise for it above. For the Cherubini, I was focusing more on the music and less on the interpretation, but the Eroica's more "authentic" approach is quite striking. I don't know what constitutes a 19th century performance except for what Bwv 1080 posted, but you can hear all kinds of departures from the score. Notes were held longer or shorter than indicated, the tempo was loosely played in some passages, some heavy rubato here and there, a couple of slides between notes. 

As for the music itself, this is Schumann I can certainly handle, probably the best piece of his I've heard so far. The textures felt appropriate and didn't crowd out those gorgeous melodies in the upper voices. The outer movements were the highlights for me, but the inner movements had their moments as well, especially those galloping repeating notes by the cello in the scherzo that made the music sound a lot faster than it actually was.


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## Josquin13

Besides Dichterliebe, the other beautiful Schumann song cycle that demonstrates his ability as a melodist is "Frauenliebe und-leben", op. 42 (or "A Woman's life and love"):


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## Euler

20centrfuge said:


> BTW, I may need to learn some of the lingo, like, what is the term for the technique utilized in the 2nd movement when there are staccato notes in quick succession- the bow is skipping across the string, right? What's the term for that?


It depends! Different performers use different techniques in those passages, due to choice of tempo and articulation. And performers often vary their technique when tempo and dynamics vary. I've seen all these in the Schumann scherzo:

Vanilla staccato -- no bounce to the bow, one note per stroke
Sautillé -- stick of the bow bounces but hair stays on string, one note per stroke
Spiccato -- whole bow bounces, one note per stroke
Ricochet (down bow) and flying spiccato (up bow) -- whole bow bounces, more than one note per stroke

Then there are specific names for spiccato played on different parts of the bow like dramatic spiccato, finger spicatto, brush spiccato etc.

Often this stuff is not prescribed in the score and you do what you fancy because carpe diem and you only live once, also forte spiccato kills your wrist 



Allegro Con Brio said:


> *Richannes Wrahms*, *Euler*, and *Iota*: would you be willing to nominate a weekly quartet down the road? I'd ideally like to keep this little listening group going for as long as possible!


I'd love to, many thanks ACB.


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## 20centrfuge

I listened to Hagen, Fine Arts, and Takacs quartets. On the whole I came to enjoy the work more than I thought I would. I’m excited to explore this genre with all of you. I feel like the little mermaid when she sang “a whole new world!”

BTW, thanks Euler for your explanation of staccato techniques.


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do need a quick headcount here as to who would be willing to nominate in the future, as a few that are not on our list have participated or shown interest to some degree. *Richannes Wrahms*, *Euler*, and *Iota*: would you be willing to nominate a weekly quartet down the road? I'd ideally like to keep this little listening group going for as long as possible!


I'd be happy to be on the list, ACB, with the caveat that because of an unusual situation here which may or may not persist, if I'm unable to appear on cue because I'm otherwise occupied, please just pass onto the next one on the list.

As far as Schumann's solo piano music mentioned above goes, it can seem a little gauche on the surface sometimes perhaps, obsessive returns to Florestan type marches, unexpected pauses and so on. But from this sometimes apparently unwieldy combination of introversion, extroversion and impulsiveness he fashions some of the most intense, truthful (and indeed melodic) music there is imo.

Josquin13 I very much hope you continue on the road back to full health!


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## Portamento

I've had to take a short break from TC as my computer went kaput. I would comment now on the Lutosławski, but I don't want to hold up this week's discussion. I don't have much experience with Schumann outside of his piano music (and Piano Quintet), but ACB nails my experience with it on the head:



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Huge, chunky, awkward chords; scores cluttered up with unnecessary notes that are really hard to read, complex inner voices that are hard to voice against the onslaught of thick textures...


Despite my qualms, this quartet is a gem. Great post, Knorf! Unlike a work like Carter No. 3 (where figuring out what is actually happening may not be of much use), my appreciation for the Romantic era benefits from some analysis.


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## DTut

_Welcome to the thread! We just hang out and listen to great music - that's all there is to it Would you like your name to added to the list of future quartet nominators? _

I'm late to the party but please add me to the list.


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## Eramire156

Giving my second listen to the Zehetmair this morning,loving it, so far have listened to the Melos, Fine Arts and Pacifica, will listen to the Hagen,and Dover and maybe couple more before the week is out.

Joaquin glad to have you back,and to hear you are on the mend.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My listen to the Eroica Quartet yesterday solidified my impressions, which are very similar to others - this is a wonderful quartet! I can't really put my finger on _why_, but I find that this music sounds fresher and more vibrant than much of Schumann, and I think his "pianistic" outlook actually creates some unique textures (like the arpeggiated accompaniment in mvmt 3 I think) that other composers would not have tried (though I still find his strange obsession with dotted march rhythms somewhat annoying and even disturbing). I think my goal of appreciating Schumann more this week is definitely being achieved. And the Eroica was a fine performance in piercing sound, with the period instruments adding a clarity of line and counterpoint that I had not heard before.

Wow, so great to see such lively participation here! This has become a surprisingly popular thread, and I think it serves as a peaceful island of cordial discussion about great music in this forum and in life in general. Anyway, now with four more participants added to the nominating list this week we are set up through at least the middle of July! This week, it's *Merl*'s choice. Current schedule:

05/10-05/17: Merl
05/17-05/24: Eramire156
05/24-05/31: Knorf
05/31-06/07: seitzpf 
06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox
06/14-06/21: calvinpv
06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
06/28-07/05: Euler
07/05-07/12: Iota
07/12-07/19: DTut


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## Enthusiast

I'm not sure what to say. I haven't heard the Hagen but of those I have heard the Zehetmair is excellent. But then I am a big fan of the occasional Zehetmair Quartet's recordings. The work is lovely, of course. Schumann needs players who can allow his vein of fantasy full rein without losing track of the work.


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## Merl

Crap, I'm next up. I betta start thinking about an SQ. Got a few in mind. I may try and surprise you (but then again I may play it safe).


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Crap, I'm next up. I betta start thinking about an SQ. Got a few in mind. I may try and surprise you (but then again I may play it safe).


Do your worst!

:lol:


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## Simplicissimus

I think I'm finished for this week, having listened two times to the Doric Quartet playing Schumann's SQ No. 1. I haven't had time to listen comparatively to other performances, but I find the piece delightful and am now looking for a good performance on CD.

What's most remarkable to me about this piece is how easy it is to appreciate. I've been reading various music critics' take on this composition during the week, and one common idea they have about it is that it is too pianistic and therefore overly simple as a SQ. To me, there is an obvious "family resemblance" between this composition and Schumann's piano writing. This is really the first time I've listened seriously to a Schumann SQ (I'm sure many of us are very acquainted with his piano works and symphonies but not the SQs), but it is *very* Schumann in melodic and harmonic conception. And it is simple in a way. It is easy to follow compared to Brahms, for example, by which I mean that the four parts seem to me to interact in less complex ways than in Brahms or, say, Dvorak. This is not at all disappointing to me, but rather quite charming. I mean, not every Romantic SQ has to drive me to stand up, sit down, and cradle my head in my hands.

For anyone who doesn't much like Schumann (and I know there are many who don't), I imagine this work was pretty tiresome. Well, I don't need to say "imagine," since there have been some comments to that effect. I'm not a huge Schumann fan, but he's always worked for me effortlessly on all levels, maybe a little too effortlessly to be fully engaging, actually. But I'm really happy to have experienced this work, and now I'm looking forward to listening to the other two SQs which, I read, were conceived by Schumann to be a sort of three-part larger work.


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## Merl

Nearly Sunday here and as its my go at this week's listening I thought I'd put it up early. I have going through my recordings and trying to settle on a decent candidate for the past couple of days. My obsession with Beethoven's SQs would surely mean that I pick one of those? Well no, I thought that was too predictable. I considered several including Fibich 2, Villa-Lobos 15, Borodin's beautiful no. 2, Tchaikovsky 1...in the end I went with a 20th century work and one that I like a lot...

*KORNGOLD STRING QUARTET NO. 2 in E-flat major, OP. 26 *

Why? Well I don't know. Maybe because it reminds me of Beethoven in places. It just felt like a nice middle ground. It's an energetic SQ full of lyricism (the reason I enjoy Korngold's violin concerto so much). lt's certainly a work that has a very Viennese feel to it (or that's maybe what I hear). Korngold's second string quartet was written in 1933 just before he moved to Hollywood. There he arranged Mendelssohn's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' for Max Reinhard's film version. He also wrote original film scores, soon signing an exclusive contract with Warner Bros, and winning his first Oscar for Best Film Score in 1936.

In comparison with the first quartet, a decade earlier, Korngold's second string quartet is far less well known and is today sadly neglected. Critics at the time of the first performance in 1934 were generally impressed and reviews were favorable in the main, but public appreciation was simply not forthcoming." The marked chromaticism and the aural eccentricities of the harmonic language explain why the quartet has fallen from the regular repertoire" (not my quote) however I like it and particularly enjoy the 4th movement. The work has a lilting Viennese lightness and uses "dance forms, and touches of Impressionism". It premiered in Vienna on 16th March 1934 but disappeared for many years and had to wait until 1997 for its UK premiere. Its made up of four movements:

1 Allegro
2 Intermezzo (Allegretto con moto)
3 Larghetto (Lento)
4 Waltz (Tempo di Valse)






If you're not familiar with it give it a try and say what you think. I have a couple of recordings of this but I heard one I hadn't heard today and it's surpassed the others so looks like another investment will be necessary (this site costs me a fortune). :lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Awesome! I’m totally unfamiliar with Korngold outside of his violin concerto, so I’m looking forward to it. I guess I always seem to gloss over him because he was mainly a film composer, but I’m sure his “concert hall” music has lots of good stuff to explore.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Awesome! I'm totally unfamiliar with Korngold outside of his violin concerto, so I'm looking forward to it. I guess I always seem to gloss over him because he was mainly a film composer, but I'm sure his "concert hall" music has lots of good stuff to explore.


He was much better than his 'film composer' tag. He wrote some truly wonderful music. There' s a line through Beethoven and Mahler to his music but you can hear drops of Stravinsky in there too. An exceptionally talented man.


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## flamencosketches

Cool choice, Merl. I know absolutely nothing about Korngold, so hopefully this will be a suitable introduction to his music, though I know he is widely renowned as a great orchestrator in the big, lush post-Romantic style and up until this point I didn't even know he wrote any string quartets. 

I'm listening to the Fine Arts Quartet performance of the Schumann A minor SQ now. So far, so good. It's overall a little slower than the Zehetmair I've been listening to (my definite favorite of those I've heard) and strikes me as maybe a less inspired performance, but maybe the sharper, more angular, accentuated lines show a side to the music that is worth hearing. They almost play it as if it were a Beethoven middle quartet, while the Zehetmair & even the Melos tend to play up the deep lyricism more. Most successful I think is the slow movement, where the heaviness seems to be conveying some kind of emotional message. 

Final thoughts for the week: this quartet is amazing. I never knew it as well as I did the A major quartet, but now I'm glad that I am getting to know it better. There is the same kind of deep passion and sensitivity that makes the best of his works so special. A word that always comes to mind for me with Schumann's greatest music is "rawness". It seems like everything in life touched him so deeply and he was able to convey that special kind of sensitivity in his music like no other. I find it extremely relatable on a personal level. In short, Schumann proves once again here why he is one of my favorite composers. I'm blanking on who picked it, all I know is it's someone without an avatar  nevertheless, great choice!

PS. Still need to track down the Eroica Quartet recording...


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## calvinpv

flamencosketches said:


> PS. Still need to track down the Eroica Quartet recording...


Here you go:


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## Shosty

The Schumann quartet did not work for me, or rather I didn't work for it. I listened to it at the worst possible time (stress and anxiety) and I barely managed to listen through to the end. That's definitely my fault and I will give the Schumann another try this week hopefully. 
I'm totally unfamiliar with Korngold as well, and look forward to getting to know his music.

edit: Just listened to the Korngold via the youtube video Merl provided in his post, and I liked it very much. The second and third movements were my favorites. The intro to the second movement is fantastic. 
Can anyone recommend other good recordings?


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## Merl

Btw, if you're unfamiliar with Korngold read his biography over at Wiki (its actually fairly accurate for once). His wife's memoirs were even more interesting, if you get the chance to read those (interestingly she barely mentions his Hollywood film-scoring career).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Wolfgang_Korngold


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## sbmonty

Another exciting choice! I haven't heard any Korngold before, so this will be a good opportunity to remedy that.


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## Simplicissimus

I'll listen to the Korngold SQ No. 2, Op. 26 performed by the Doric Quartet. I have it on Amazon Music in "Ultra HD." Looking forward to it!


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## Enthusiast

This could be an excellent choice for me, largely because I have never really taken to Korngold. It is the violin concerto I know best (it is a coupling on a couple of CDs I have) and it is one of those pieces where I recognise that the work has huge merit ... but that I just don't like it very much. I find some of Korngold's language a little sentimental and cloying but do, as I say, recognise that my reaction is a superficial one and, as I have said, that the work has a lot of merit. Let's see what the quartet does for me and whether I am tempted to go beyond an initial reaction against it.


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## Mandryka

Written in 1933, when Korngold was 36, about the time of Schoenberg's Moses and Aaron, the Ruth Crawford Seeger quartet and Varese's Ecquatorial.


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## Eramire156

Looking forward to the Korngold, love his Piano Trio, and Piano Quintet but don't know the string quartets, as far the Schumann goes I listened to

Fine Arts Quartet 
Melos Quartet 
Pacifica Quartet 
Dover
Stradvari 
Hagen
Eroica 
Capet
Zehetmair

To a couple recordings I listened multiple times, my favorite had to be Zehetmair, closely followed by the Melos and the Stradvari, the Capet is a sentimental fav. because of its well judged use of portamento and vibrato. As far as quartet itself I found it's idiosyncratic nature most compelling, I will be returning to this quartet soon, I need add the Melos and Zehetmair CDs to my collection.


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## Mandryka

One quick question on the Schumann, I'm sorry I didn't mention it earlier. 

There are two versions of the quartet, Schumann revised it in the light of criticism from the fiddle player Ferdinand David. These changes may not have been for the better. 

One group who decided to play the originals is The Leipzig Quartet, and I like their recordings very much. 

Unfortunately I didn't keep the booklet from the CDs, where presumably they discuss the revisions and the edition they used for performance. Does anyone have the booklet? If it's interesting I would love to have a scan.


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## flamencosketches

Eramire156 said:


> Looking forward to the Korngold, love his Piano Trio, and Piano Quintet but don't know the string quartets, as far the Schumann goes I listened to
> 
> Fine Arts Quartet
> Melos Quartet
> Pacifica Quartet
> Dover
> Stradvari
> Hagen
> Eroica
> Capet
> Zehetmair
> 
> To a couple recordings I listened multiple times, my favorite had to be Zehetmair, closely followed by the Melos and the Stradvari, the Capet is a sentimental fav. because of its well judged use of portamento and vibrato. As far as quartet itself I found it's idiosyncratic nature most compelling, I will be returning to this quartet soon, I need add the Melos and Zehetmair CDs to my collection.


The Zehetmair is damn fine, glad you enjoyed it. My favorite by far too. Though I listened to the Eroica once and enjoyed it so much I ordered a copy... whoops. Got it for cheap, at least.


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## Enthusiast

I fear I'm just prejudiced against Korngold. I can't get the image of taking my seat in a posh tea salon out of my head when listening to this quartet. The image forms almost as soon as the music starts.


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## Bwv 1080

Interesting piece, totally unfamiliar with Korngold's music. Reminds me of Reger a bit


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## Allegro Con Brio

My initial sampling of the Korngold was an interesting experience. Immediately I got the impression of being serenaded by Viennese cafe music like the kind that Mahler parodied in the 1st symphony (and I promise I was not influenced by Enthusiast’s comment above when I say that!) This isn’t a bad thing - very pleasurable music, but it seemed a bit light for me - to use a stereotype, “more corn than gold.” By the time the third movement rolled around I figured I could expect more of the same kind of thing, but the Adagio was more darkly chromatic and searching which appealed to me more. Then the finale, while still oozing with unabashed tunefulness, was a bit more engaging. Overall this is the kind of music which hardcore modernists love to hate for being unabashedly “syrupy” and romantic. And indeed it must have seemed very antiquated in the day. Its lyricism is certainly very attractive, but I’m not sure if it holds any deeper secrets? Only one way to find out - I’ll keep trying and see if this music has anything else to offer. Interesting side question - the 2019 Jerusalem Quartet recording I heard was included on an album called “The Yiddish Cabaret” with Jewish folk-inspired music. Does anyone know if Korngold was actively inspired by Jewish folk music?


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## Enthusiast

Oh dear! I must be a hard core modernist. I do like Rachmaninov and Elgar greatly, though.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> Oh dear! I must be a hard core modernist. I do like Rachmaninov and Elgar greatly, though.


Well tough, Enthusi-boy, I chose Korngold! :lol:


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Well tough, Enthusi-boy, I chose Korngold! :lol:


You sure did. We may never forgive you.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My initial sampling of the Korngold was an interesting experience. Immediately I got the impression of being serenaded by Viennese cafe music like the kind that Mahler parodied in the 1st symphony (and I promise I was not influenced by Enthusiast's comment above when I say that!) This isn't a bad thing - very pleasurable music, but it seemed a bit light for me - to use a stereotype, "more corn than gold." By the time the third movement rolled around I figured I could expect more of the same kind of thing, but the Adagio was more darkly chromatic and searching which appealed to me more. Then the finale, while still oozing with unabashed tunefulness, was a bit more engaging. Overall this is the kind of music which hardcore modernists love to hate for being unabashedly "syrupy" and romantic. And indeed it must have seemed very antiquated in the day. Its lyricism is certainly very attractive, but I'm not sure if it holds any deeper secrets? Only one way to find out - I'll keep trying and see if this music has anything else to offer. Interesting side question - the 2019 Jerusalem Quartet recording I heard was included on an album called "The Yiddish Cabaret" with Jewish folk-inspired music. Does anyone know if Korngold was actively inspired by Jewish folk music?


He couldn't fail to be influenced by Jewish music as it was all around him growiing up. His father was a celebrated and very important music critic in Vienna. Like his father, he was more inspired by Mahler and Wagner's music. Mahler was a great friend of his father and Erich played for Mahler at the age of 12 or 13 (Mahler called him a "genius"). Mahler sent him to train under Zemlinsky. He wrote to Mahler frequently and was there at the premiere of Mahler's 8th symphony after meeting him at his hotel. He was also a big fan of Stravinsky's music and was great friends with Schoenberg. Interesting man. Maybe I should have chosen the more chromatic SQ no. 1 instead. I love no. 2 though. Ah well. Only the same as me hating Carter's SQ.


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## Knorf

Alrighty, I did my homework. I've heard very little Korngold, I'm sorry to say, but I enjoyed this little visit to the Viennese salon.

It's a very charming piece of music. I was not corned-out, but I admit by the end of the 2nd movement, I had in my mind the quote from Jane Austen criticizing _Pride and Prejudice_, "The work is rather too light, and bright, and sparkling; it wants shade..."

Then the 3rd movement arrived, and with it, shade. For me it is this movement that is most memorable. The introduction with harmonics grabbed my attention for sure, and it's nice to have a bit of nuanced gravitas to give substance to this _Brandteigkrapferl_.

Cleverness and readily apparent skill abound. The aura of nostalgia did not disturb me, being so well backed by solid compositional craft. Korngold did play fast and loose with parallel 5ths in a couple places, and it's silly that this would bother me, but it often does in a piece that is ostensibly written in a style of common-practice tonality, especially when the textures are so transparent. When it comes to common practice, "are you in or out?" I want to ask.

But there is little reason for me to continue with this cavil, and in no way should it be taken to suggest I did not enjoy this quartet. I did.

Thanks, Merl, for choosing this!

I now have a strange urge to go listen to Schönberg...


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## Bwv 1080

Compare to some of his great film scores:










hmm, wonder what film composer borrowed that in 1977?


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## Portamento

It's a very likable quartet -- the harmonics at the beginning of the _Lento_ are lovely -- but perhaps not one that I would return to often. I do feel that the film scores are where Korngold found his true voice (what a great orchestrator).


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## calvinpv

Well, count me as someone who loved the Korngold, full stop. It never overstayed its welcome, and each movement had its own personality, from the folk-like second movement to the rather sickly fourth movement waltz. And this may be a weird observation, but that first movement melody, if you were to slow it down and change the key, sounds like some accompaniment line from Zemlinsky or Schoenberg's _Verklärte Nacht_. There's nothing remarkable about that melody on its own, but with the right makeover, I guess anything's possible. The only thing I didn't care for was, in fact, those harmonics at the beginning of the third movement. I was expecting them to serve as some motif guiding the movement, but they just disappeared after an initial appearance. Overall, great choice and, for me, a great first exposure to Korngold's music.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Btw, if you're unfamiliar with Korngold read his biography over at Wiki (its actually fairly accurate for once). His wife's memoirs were even more interesting, if you get the chance to read those (interestingly she barely mentions his Hollywood film-scoring career).
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Wolfgang_Korngold


I actually read this last week as I was listening to his Violin Concerto. I've been lurking this thread but haven't posted as I'm still feeling very much out of my depth here on TC. That said, I'm going to listen to this one as I really enjoyed his VC. Apparently Korngold influenced John Williams and I could hear some of that in the VC. Looking forward to hearing this Quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I actually read this last week as I was listening to his Violin Concerto. I've been lurking this thread but haven't posted as I'm still feeling very much out of my depth here on TC. That said, I'm going to listen to this one as I really enjoyed his VC. Apparently Korngold influenced John Williams and I could hear some of that in the VC. Looking forward to hearing this Quartet.


We all started somewhere! Welcome to the thread! Feel free to participate however you wish and let me know if you want to nominate down the road


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## 20centrfuge

Korngold: I listened to the Doric recording and found it quite enjoyable. It feels like vintage Americana to me and I do feel a little of that Hollywood Golden Age influence. This also served as an introduction to Korngold for me.


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## TurnaboutVox

I have got very behind on this thread, mostly due to illness and the inconvenience of being hospitalised several times in recent weeks (not virus-related).

I did listen to the Lutoslawski quartet - LaSalle (CD), Kronos and Silesian Quartets (streaming) - and liked all three very much. But it's too late, I think, for me to comment further on that work except to say - I've owned the LaSalle Quartet disc for a long time and listened to it very little, so once again, a big thank you to this thread for helping me to focus on it, and especially to the contributor who selected it for auditioning the week before last.

The Schumann Op. 41/1 A minor quartet I've known and loved since my student days / the LP era. I love the way that Schumann's music is so mercurial: the mood can turn with a phrase in an instant. This quartet always sounded a little pianistic to me but I think it holds together well and above all it seems to me exactly the sort of music the arch-romantic Schumann would write for string quartet.

I listened to the Quartetto Italiano (LP), the Leipzig String Quartet (CD) and via streaming, the Doric Quartet, Talich Quartet, Melos Quartet, Gringolts Quartet and the Amaryllis Quartet (well, almost all of it as the YouTube recording ends abruptly short of the end of the finale).

I "replaced" my 1970s LPs with the Leipzig Quartet's CD recordings a few years ago but have found their interpretations a bit rushed and superficial for my ears (N.B. Mandryka - I do have the CDs and their accompanying booklet) and to my surprise I also thought that the Doric Quartet took the Allegro and the Scherzo too fast for my liking. 

Going back to older interpretations I found that the Talich Quartet took everything at a much more leisurely pace, but their Presto finale was more like a brisk andante, as if demonstrating to students what was going on! Rather ponderous. The Melos Quartet are very good, I think. I did notice some common elements between the three older recordings and wondered if there had once been a tradition of Schumann quartet interpretation which has now been lost or laid aside? Perhaps that's fanciful.

The modern account I liked best was the Gringolts Quartet on Onyx. I found myself more able with that group to keep the melodic lines intact in my head as I listened (I find that this is a problem for me with some ensembles in Schumann, amongst others). I didn't get the chance to listen to some of the more recent recordings praised by contributors here but will try to do so in future.

The best? Undoubtedly, despite the snap, crackle and pop of my ancient and abused LPs - the Quartetto Italiano with just the right blend of attack, sweetness, humour and wonderful ensemble playing; and the sweetest of final chords in the Presto finale. Which is great for those of you who bought the Quartetto Italiano complete recordings CD set. But as far as I'm aware the Schumann recordings have never been issued separately on CD, more's the pity.


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## Merl

Listening to the Korngold again today I really like the Dorics here. I've had the Flesch SQ Korngold CD for years and it's always been my go to for this quartet but that Doric recording is terrific (I'm beginning to really enjoy the Dorics in a lot of SQ recordings). Love the way they play that darker 3rd movement. Also listened to the ARON Quartet who play well but it doesn't have the Dorics' earthiness or Viennese lilt.


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## Knorf

Stylistically, the Viennese lilt seems critical for the Korngold! It's hard to imagine an interpretation functioning well without it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So I just gave this an initial listen with the Doric SQ and I liked it. Admittedly, my favorite classical music is usually Symphonic or Concertos, but since joining up here I've been trying to get more into ensembles. I've enjoyed quite a few across the board, especially from Haas, Doric and Emerson. Some of the earlier classical period works kind of lose me in the sense that I lose focus when listening to them, though I'm not entirely certain that isn't the desired effect? Like posh dinner party music or something? 

Anyway, ramble over. Well, wait, one more. When I was a kid, like maybe 10-12 a family friend turned me on to The Adventures of Robin Hood with Errol Flynn. This would be in the early 80s so at this point the movie was like 40ish years old. I was immediately hooked by this movie and to this day have not seen a Robin Hood film that I like better. The swagger and bravado, the over the top portrayals. The swordfight scene with Flynn and Basil Rathbone. And the score. Man what a movie. 

Ok. Ramble over. Wait, like a half more ramble to go: so when I see Korngold's name pop up on a list of top recommended works here on TC I add it to my playlist. I'm trying to play through them all to see what's what. While listening through his VC, I read the wikipedia page on him. As I'm beginning to read I'm hearing something that sounds so familiar: like Robin Hood and Star Wars - pulp action film plus old Hollywood drama. I liked it a lot. Then wikipedia tells me about Korngold and his Hollywood era and it all falls into place. 

NOW ramble over. I went into this SQ #2 prejudiced. I like Korngold because I like Robin Hood and John Williams. I don't like listening to film scores by themselves, but I like the music in film. This is the first time hearing it and the second of his works I've heard. I enjoy the harmonic and melodic structures based in traditional tonality. While I haven't stopped trying, I've have not yet really taken to the more atonal 20th century music. That said, when I hear Prokofiev flirt with dissonance or altered scales and then 'come home' I am absolutely entranced by it. I get that feeling from this quartet too, specifically the fourth movement. 

So for my first hearing: I like it. It hits me in the nostalgia feels. It hits me in the classic-style-yet-likes-to-wander aspect of Korngold's style. It is not so light that I lose it and start thinking about when I need to replace the air filters on my HVAC unit but it's also light and fun. And I like Doric on this work. They absolutely crush it. I think I'm going to listen to the whole album now, and possible buy it. I hate this place. I love this place. 

Anyway, my meandering and useless take on Korngold String Quartet No. 2.


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## Josquin13

(I wrote the following a couple of days ago, and am just now getting around to posting it. Interestingly, in reading over the other posts more carefully, I see that some of my thoughts mirror those by others. I'm not copying you, we just had a similar response to Korngold's music.)

I thought this is my first introduction to the music of Erich Wolfgang Korngold, but in looking over his film scores, I see that Korngold composed the music for Errol Flynn's "The Adventures of Robin Hood", with Basil Rathbone & Olivia de Havilland, from 1938, & I have seen that film. However, I didn't remember the music, not until I watched part of film a couple of days ago on You Tube after listening to the SQ. I then listened to the following live concert of the "Robin Hood" film score: 



. I find there are some similarities between the Robin Hood score and the string quartet, in that Korngold seems to have had an easy, natural facility for composing. It all sounds so effortless and assured. Like Mendelssohn, he plays by the rules. So, I'm not surprised that Mahler considered him a prodigy. (R. Strauss, Puccini, & Sibelius likewise saw enormous potential in the young Korngold.)

As for the quartet, I wouldn't go as far as call it 'salon' music because the term carries with it a certain negative connotation, & I don't feel negatively towards the quartet. It's likable music. It may sound strange, but while listening to the first two movements, I felt like I was listening to a string quartet by Noel Coward--that is, if Coward had ever taken composition seriously, and written a string quartet, perhaps while on holiday in Vienna. The music had the same kind of affable charm as a Coward play, written by a bon vivant with talent, wit, & dexterity. Although I don't know if Korngold was such a person, or shared anything in common with Coward in his personal life.

Granted, the larghetto does get more serious in tone, and has a darker beauty, but that is soon relieved by the Viennese Waltz in the final movement. Ultimately, my impression is that Korngold's intent was to please and charm. We needn't take the larghetto too seriously, he seems to be telling us with the quartet's conclusion.

Overall, I found the quartet to be a breath of fresh air, & a welcome change of pace from what we've been listening to lately, thanks, Merl. Maybe I'll finally have a listen to Korngold's well known Violin Concerto, which surprisingly I've never heard...

Actually, I've just now done a You Tube search & find that violinist Gil Shaham recorded Korngold's Violin Concerto (1945), & the concerto comes coupled with Samuel Barber's Violin Concerto (1939), which makes for an intriguing coupling: 



. I'm listening to it right now. My first impression is that Korngold composes very well for the violin. The virtuosity required suggests that he played the violin himself. The concerto has imagination and facility, but also sentimentality. There is a strong sense of nostalgia, as if Korngold was looking back at a bygone era. I feel that most intensely in the 2nd movement. I now see why Shaham chose to couple this concerto with the Barber VC, as Barber's concerto has an intensely lyrical, forlorn, nostalgic, & even perhaps elegiac 2nd movement, with a difficult to play 3rd movement that shows off the virtuosity of the violinist. Similarly, Korngold's third movement is bouncy and light, and again, there is loads of virtuosity required from the violinist.

I get the distinct impression that Korngold had an enormous influence on the film composers that followed after him in Hollywood. I can definitely hear something of John Williams' film style in this violin concerto. In the "Robin Hood" concert clip that I linked above, the announcer came on at the end to relate an anecdote from the conductor of this recording, Andre Previn, who said that someone in tinsel town once observed, "Korngold sounds like Hollywood"--to which Korngold replied, "Oh no. Hollywood sounds like Korngold".


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## Eramire156

So far I've listened to Doric (twice) , Aron(also twice) and the Adamas, will listen to the Flesch. I have a few thoughts but will wait til I'm done listening, to post them.

In the meantime I'd thought I'd share the following article https://forbiddenmusic.org/2015/07/18/the-false-myths-and-true-genius-of-erich-wolfgang-korngold/


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## Merl

Eramire156 said:


> So far I've listened to Doric (twice) , Aron(also twice) and the Adamas, will listen to the Flesch. I have a few thoughts but will wait til I'm done listening, to post them.
> 
> In the meantime I'd thought I'd share the following article https://forbiddenmusic.org/2015/07/18/the-false-myths-and-true-genius-of-erich-wolfgang-korngold/


I was going to link that article Eramire
It's a great read. Kongold's widow (Luzi) also wrote great memoirs. Well worth a read too.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So I listened again this morning to Aron, Doric and also the Adamas. I really enjoy this piece. The second and fourth movements are probably my favorite. I wish I had more insight to offer, but that's what I have to give. Also, I started to read the linked article, after 30 minutes I had to put it down to complete later. I found it very interesting in spite of the fact that I didn't even know who Korngold was two weeks ago. I thought I had father/son issues. Sheesh...


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## Iota

I've listened twice to the Korngold quartet now, and though it's probably not for me at the moment, I thought it was clearly well-crafted and full of melody. Broadly the style is not my thing, though some bits where he goes exploring a bit for example I liked. Glad to have listened though, and it made me go and listen to the violin concerto, which I don't think I've heard before (though I thought I had) which I found myself drawn into more.

I was interested to discover that far from Korngold having forged his style to suit the ethos of the Hollywood studios, which I ignorantly had sort of assumed, looking at the dates I see he was composing in that manner well before he even went to the States.

Also Merl having mentioned feeling the music was at the end of a line from Beethoven to Mahler, I wonder if anybody else felt the passing connection in the first movement theme (at 1.25 and 1.35 e.g in the vid below) to the opening theme of Beethoven's 5th. I know it's not an uncommon rhythm, but nonetheless it rang a little bell for me in this context.


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## TurnaboutVox

Iota said:


> [...] I wonder if anybody else felt the passing connection in the first movement theme (at 1.25 and 1.35 e.g in the vid below) to the opening theme of Beethoven's 5th. I know it's not an uncommon rhythm, but nonetheless it rang a little bell for me in this context.


Yes, certainly. I misread your post on first glance and so was expecting a reference to the 6th symphony... then I heard what seems like a definite reference to the opening bars of the fifth!

The Korngold Op. 26 quartet is a very attractive piece of music on first audition.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I liked the Doric recording quite a bit; as noted the light Viennese lilt is delightful - they don't try to inject it with any sort of profound narrative (I don't hear it that way but others might), instead turning in a nice idiomatic performance of this beautiful music. The more I pay attention to the way that Korngold treates his themes and modulations the more it sounds like film music - I still can't say I'm particularly taken by this work, but at the same time I can't really find anything big to object about here. Not too many big surprises, just nice rhapsodic music!

And the weekly reminder - next week's pick will go to *Eramire156*.


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## Eramire156

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I liked the Doric recording quite a bit; as noted the light Viennese lilt is delightful - they don't try to inject it with any sort of profound narrative (I don't hear it that way but others might), instead turning in a nice idiomatic performance of this beautiful music. The more I pay attention to the way that Korngold treates his themes and modulations the more it sounds like film music - I still can't say I'm particularly taken by this work, but at the same time I can't really find anything big to object about here. Not too many big surprises, just nice rhapsodic music!
> 
> And the weekly reminder - next week's pick will go to *Eramire156*.


Thanks for the reminder, I'm considering a number of quartets, will make my final selection Saturday.


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## Merl

Iota said:


> I've listened twice to the Korngold quartet now, and though it's probably not for me at the moment, I thought it was clearly well-crafted and full of melody. Broadly the style is not my thing, though some bits where he goes exploring a bit for example I liked. Glad to have listened though, and it made me go and listen to the violin concerto, which I don't think I've heard before (though I thought I had) which I found myself drawn into more.
> 
> *I was interested to discover that far from Korngold having forged his style to suit the ethos of the Hollywood studios*, which I ignorantly had sort of assumed, looking at the dates I see he was composing in that manner well before he even went to the States.
> 
> *Also Merl having mentioned feeling the music was at the end of a line from Beethoven to Mahler, I wonder if anybody else felt the passing connection in the first movement theme (at 1.25 and 1.35 e.g in the vid below) to the opening theme of Beethoven's 5th. I know it's not an uncommon rhythm, but nonetheless it rang a little bell for me in this context*.


I think I said that in my post introducing the quartet. There's some lovely little nods to Beethoven and Mahler in there and it's not coincidental, it's very deliberate. There's quite a bit of Mahler referencing in Korngold's works. Also good point about Hollywood. It wasn't that Korngold sounded like Hollywood. Hollywood definitely sounded like Korngold. He wrote a lot of 'film music' before he even went to Hollywood.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> I think I said that in my post introducing the quartet. There's some lovely little nods to Beethoven and Mahler in there and it's not coincidental, it's very deliberate. There's quite a bit of Mahler referencing in Korngold's works. Also good point about Hollywood. It wasn't that Korngold sounded like Hollywood. Hollywood definitely sounded like Korngold. He wrote a lot of 'film music' before he even went to Hollywood.


This is the explanation I'm going to use.


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## Eramire156

I've been considering one of three quartets for my choice for the coming week. Perhaps tarrying in Vienna with the Zemlinsky's third, coming to the US with Ives first, but in the end I decided to go with *Ravel's *only quartet. Happy listening.


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## Knorf

Eramire156 said:


> I've been considering one of three quartets for my choice for the coming week. Perhaps tarrying in Vienna with the Zemlinsky's third, coming to the US with Ives first, but in the end I decided to go with *Ravel's *only quartet. Happy listening.


Curse you! That was going to be my choice! 

I love, love, love Ravel's String Quartet in F, one of the peaks in a very tall mountain range. Thanks for choosing it! I'm eager to dive in and see where the discussion leads.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yeah!!!! The Ravel quartet was one of the earliest classical works I fell in love with and to today it is in my top 5 favorite SQ’s. As a matter of fact I was just listening to it yesterday. Since I’m familiar with it it will give me a great excuse to do some deep listening and comparing of interpretations. Awesome decision Eramire


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## Eramire156

There are so many great recordings available, that it an easy choice, here a couple of links from the Chamber Society of Lincoln Center, to everyone started.

Inside chamber music lecture https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/beloved-chamber-music-repertoire-winter-2017/ravel-quartet-in-f-major-for-strings/

Escher String Quartet Performance https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/2017-video-archive-2/ravel-quartet-in-f-major-for-strings/

Wikipedia article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_(Ravel)


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I liked the Doric recording quite a bit; as noted the light Viennese lilt is delightful - they don't try to inject it with any sort of profound narrative (I don't hear it that way but others might), instead turning in a nice idiomatic performance of this beautiful music. The more I pay attention to the way that Korngold treates his themes and modulations the more it sounds like film music - I still can't say I'm particularly taken by this work, but at the same time I can't really find anything big to object about here. Not too many big surprises, just nice rhapsodic music!
> 
> And the weekly reminder - next week's pick will go to *Eramire156*.


I agree: sounds like film music and it's nice rhapsodic music. I was surprised by how modern it sounds, by which I mean the tone palette is more complex and challenging than what a lot of film music has become. I'm no John Williams hater, but this quartet impresses me as more serious and deeper than a lot of other music that strikes me as film music. Really more of Mahler and I even want to say Bartók than what we get in, say, Ennio Morricone or Bernard Herrmann. A little more expressionist. I like it a lot!


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## Merl

I'm glad some of you enjoyed the Korngold but its been great reading all the comments, anyway. I could have played it safe with a more romantic era piece but I thought I'd try someone a little off the beaten track. I'm glad I did. I look forward to the Ravel
That's a great a SQ with a stack of wonderful performances to choose from. Good choice Eramire.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Our friend Trout has compiled a top 10 most recommended recording list for the Ravel quartet, which may serve as a helpful guide this week:

1. Quartetto Italiano (1965)
2. Quatuor Ebène (2008)
3. Alban Berg Quartet	(1984)
4. Juilliard String Quartet (1959)
5. Melos Quartet (1979)
6. Belcea Quartet (2000)
7. Juilliard String Quartet (1992)
8. Galimir Quartet (1982)
9. Emerson String Quartet (1984)
10. Cleveland Quartet	(1985)

Also, a characteristically insightful essay from Peter Gutmann (also including discussion of the Debussy quartet which it will perpetually be compared to): http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics6/debrav.html


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## Simplicissimus

Eramire156 said:


> I've been considering one of three quartets for my choice for the coming week. Perhaps tarrying in Vienna with the Zemlinsky's third, coming to the US with Ives first, but in the end I decided to go with *Ravel's *only quartet. Happy listening.


Brilliant! For me it's a no-brainer because I'm an Emerson Quartet guy:


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## Knorf

It's fair that the Ravel Quartet gets compared with Debussy, since it was inspired by and to some degree consciously modelled after the Debussy Quartet.

For me, though, the Ravel surpasses its model, which is really saying something because I adore the Debussy Quartet. And the comparison _is_ super interesting. It's no wonder the two are almost always paired in recordings!

I'll write more soon.


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## Josquin13

A great choice, Eramire 156. I'm crazy about the music of Maurice Ravel (& Claude Debussy), and particularly this quartet. It's a 'desert island' favorite of mine, along with Ravel's Piano Trio. However, both works need to be heard in concert to fully appreciate how brilliant they are!

The following have been the eight 'stand out' recordings that I've heard & liked best over the decades, & I've tried to list them in some basic order of preference (which shouldn't be taken too seriously, since I've never sat down & compared them side by side); although my first two choices can switch around in the top spot, depending on the day:

1. Orlando Quartet, on Philips: Unfortunately, it's not on You Tube--but this is brilliant quartet playing!: 
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8059203--debussy-ravel-string-quartets
https://www.amazon.com/String-Quartets-Debussy/dp/B00000E2OW

2. Párkányi Quartet, on hybrid SACD. A later incarnation of the Orlando Quartet, renamed after their 1st violinist, István Párkányi, and with a new cellist in the line up. The Párkányi Quartet finds an extraordinary depth in this music, and bring more tonal heft to the score than one normally hears, which is important to this music I think. They've also been given very good DSD sound by Praga. Unfortunately, it's not on You Tube, either, but the recording can be sampled here: https://www.cede.com/en/music/?view=detail&branch_sub=1&branch=1&aid=138794947

http://www.pragadigitals.com/MAURIC...SY-STRING-QUARTET-IN-G-MINOR-Parkanyi-Quartet
https://www.allmusic.com/album/ravel-debussy-string-quartets-mw0001385782

For me, the 1st choice lies between the Orlando and Párkányi Quartets, and it becomes a question of a more youthful, dazzling quartet (the Orlando Quartet in the 1980s) versus an older and perhaps wiser & more insightful quartet (the Párkányi Quartet in the 2000s). But I like both performances very much.

3. Ysaÿe Quartet: Like the Párkányis, the Ysaÿe Quartet brings a greater tonal heft to Ravel's quartet (& to Debussy's). This is an excellent & idiomatic (French) sounding performance. By the way, the Ysaÿe Quartet, in an earlier incarnation, premiered Debussy's quartet:


















4. Alban Berg Quartet--this is an underrated performance, IMO: 




ABQ with the score: 




5. Quartetto Italiano: a classic recording, but I don't think it's the best in the catalogue anymore. But it once was: 




6. Melos Quartett: this recording won a rosette award from the old Penquin Guide, & deservedly so: 




7. Chilingirian Quartet: 




8. Talich Quartet (the recent line up, not the older quartet): 




Other very good recordings:

--Amati Quartet: 



--Ebene Quartet: 



--Jersusalem Quartet: 



--Arcanto Quartet: 



--Music from Marlboro, performed live at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston: 




& one recording that I've not yet heard in its entirety, but which has received glowing reviews lately, Quatour van Kuijk:










Does everyone know that the quartet is dedicated to Ravel's teacher, Gabriel Faure? Surprisingly, Faure didn't like the quartet and especially the last movement, which Debussy convinced Ravel not to change, most fortunately. Evidently, the second movement was influenced by Javanese gamelan music, which had impressed by both Debussy & Ravel in Paris.


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## Josquin13

One more that I forgot to mention above--a historical performance that may be of interest to people, since it was recorded in 1934 under the supervision of the composer: by the Galimer Quartet of Vienna (with violinist Felix Galimer & his three sisters): 




I've not heard the later 1982-83 Galimer Quartet recording that Trout mentions, but am very curious about it: https://www.allmusic.com/album/debussy-ravel-string-quartets-mw0001386857. (I can remember when Felix Galimer taught at the Curtis Institute, since I once dated a girl that studied with Galimer. I recall she was very fond of him.)

Okay, I found part of the Galimer Quartet's 1983 Vanguard recording on YT:









The Curtis Quartet also recorded the work in 1955. I have a vague memory that they also played the work for Ravel, but their performance didn't receive such a warm reception. Yet I can't remember where I heard or read that... so maybe it's not true...?:


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## Portamento

Great choice! This one really is a warhorse, so I want to hear interpretations I am unfamiliar with and compare them to the Alban Berg Quartett (whose Ravel I love). I'm starting way back with the Quatuor Capet from 1928:






And here's the Alban Berg recording:






I've only finished listening to the first movement, but right off the bat you are met with a healthy dose of portamento. (As you can tell from my username, this doesn't bother me one bit.) Another extinct historical practice are the extreme tempo changes, which often have an improvisatory feel. Both recordings start out around the marked tempo of 120 bpm, but things start to diverge pretty quickly. For example, take rehearsal D (1:50 in the Alban Berg video and 1:42 in the Capet). There is a _cédez_ (slow down) marked a half-measure before returning to the original tempo for D, but the Capets choose to completely ignore this and continue at around 90 bpm! When I first heard this, I was shocked-the heavy cello pizz. makes this section feel like a dance of some sort. The Capets do eventually speed back up at rehearsal E, and the Alban Bergs are only about 20 seconds faster overall. I can't say that one interpretation is more valid than the other; based on the first movement alone, these are both recommendable choices.


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## 20centrfuge

I’m listening to the Quatuor Ebène rendition. Ravel’s music is just perfect. He creates such a sensuous piece taut with just enough emotional tension that as a listener one feels spellbound. He seems to magnify the inherent intimacy of a string quartet. 

Probably because of extra-musical associations, but I also have to say that this piece, to me, is the epitome of svelte, cosmopolitan France.

I’m not a great writer but suffice it to say that I think this piece is a masterpiece.


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## Eramire156

Glad everyone is up for the Ravei

Here are my notes on the Korngold, I listened to the 
Doric (3 times)
Aron (3 times)
Adamas 
Flesch

I listened to the Doric first and after first two mvts. was ready to dismiss the quartet as another Viennese pastry but third mvt. Larghetto hinted at something more, the Doric played final waltz with great charm, but I felt something was missing, the Aron supplied what was only hinted at in the Doric, the Aron's the final waltz was played almost as a danse macabre, (behind the legendary Viennese formality and politeness lurked a darker side) now the third mvt. Larghetto for me makes more sense, Korngold after all was a student of Zemlinsky.


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## Merl

Jeez, I've just been looking at how many quartets have recorded the Ravel quartet. That's frightening! Seems like ever quartet ever formed has do e at least one recording. If I was collecting all of these it would be as bad as my Beethoven Symphonies obsession.... In fact worse. Thankfully I only have a certain number of Ravel quartets on disc and tend to go back to the Alban Bergs more often than not but it's about time I rediscovered other performances and maybe even found a new favourite. Going to take a few days and listen to a rake of performances. Incidentally, my first exposure to this quartet was through the Itallianos, which is still a beautiful disc.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I'm new to all of these 'old warhorses' so I'm glad to give this a listen. I figured I'd go through the list of top voted recordings of this and work through it so I started with the #2 Quatuor Ebène. This is a fantastic piece. The beginning of the second movement blew my mind. The third has such a beautiful longing that it's captivating. Then the fourth hits like a sledgehammer!

I wasn't sure what to expect from Ravel, I didn't really care for his piano concerto which is the only other work of his I'd heard but this is fantastic. I've had a difficult relationship with 20th century composers but I'm coming to appreciate Debussy and now Ravel. The more impressionist kind of stuff strikes me as more meandering than earlier forms, but the beautiful snapshots they make can be very elegant. Sorry if I lack the language to nerd out on this properly. I'm new.


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## Mandryka

I like the one here most, from a concert which Hagen Quartet gave in Salzburg in 2000. It is tense, tough and grey shaded, very un-French, and all the better for it.


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## Iota

Eramire156 said:


> Happy listening.


Pretty much guaranteed for me here, Eramire, excellent choice!

I have the Quatuor Ebene and the Belcea, both are excellent, but I feel the Ebene achieve greater intensity, get closer to the breathless edge of the exquisite harmonies and rhythms and just generally spin a bit more magic.
The Belcea are somewhat soupier in approach and stay more in the light, but despite my preference for Ebene, as I say I still think they're very fine.

In a sense the Debussy feels more radical/iconoclastic, like the parent who's fought the war so the child (the Ravel) can enjoy the new found freedoms that have been won. I love both, the Debussy perhaps has a little more gristle, and the Ravel is more purely and sensuously fantastical. If I had to pick between the two it would more often than not be the Ravel (but certainly not always), as it seems one of those more or less perfect works that we're gifted from time to time.


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## Shosty

I've found it difficult to connect with early 20th century French composers (especially the impressionists), but I've recently sort of rediscovered Debussy and the more I listen to his music the more I like him. I'd never really gotten into Ravel, and this is a great excuse for me to dive into his music, so thanks Eramire.:tiphat: 
I listened to Qartetto Italiano, then the Budapest String Quartet, then again to Italiano. I liked both performances and loved the quartet itself. I'll listen to it some more during the week, and also to Ravel's other works.


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## sbmonty

I have two versions, the Quatuor Ébène and the Melos Quartet. I'll listen to those first then go from there. Nice choice.


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## Josquin13

BlackAdderLLX writes, "I wasn't sure what to expect from Ravel, I didn't really care for his piano concerto which is the only other work of his I'd heard but this is fantastic."

I envy that you have so much incredible music ahead of you. With that in mind, I'd strongly recommend that at some point you have a listen to Ravel's solo piano music, & particularly his very imaginative "Gaspard de la Nuit" and "Miroirs":

--Ivo Pogorelich, Gaspard de la Nuit: 



--Samson François, Miroirs: 




Plus, Ravel's extraordinary ballet "Daphnis et Chloe"--composed for Serge Diaghilev's Ballets Russes in Paris, is essential listening, too. I'm certainly not alone in considering it one of the most amazing feats of orchestrating in the history of music: 



.

And that's just for starters...


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## Portamento

I made a quick-and-dirty list of well-known Ravel quartet recordings as a listening guide for myself. Maybe it's helpful to others, who knows...

Capet (1928)
Pro Arte (1933)
Italiano (1965)
Alban Berg (1984)
Hagen (1994)
Melos (1999)
Belcea (2000)
Ebène (2008)
Arcanto (2010)
Jerusalem (2018)

Obviously there's a lot missing here, but this is what I'll try to explore this week.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Josquin13 said:


> BlackAdderLLX writes, "I wasn't sure what to expect from Ravel, I didn't really care for his piano concerto which is the only other work of his I'd heard but this is fantastic."
> 
> I envy that you have so much incredible music ahead of you. With that in mind, I'd strongly recommend that at some point you have a listen to Ravel's solo piano music, & particularly his very imaginative "Gaspard de la Nuit" and "Miroirs":
> 
> --Ivo Pogorelich, Gaspard de la Nuit:
> 
> 
> 
> --Samson François, Miroirs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, Ravel's extraordinary ballet "Daphnis et Chloe"--composed for Serge Diaghilev's Ballets Russes in Paris, is essential listening, too. I'm certainly not alone in considering it one of the most amazing feats of orchestrating in the history of music:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> And that's just for starters...


Thanks! I'll listen to anything once and try to give it an honest listen. I remember reading about Ravel's Bolero in college, and I probably heard an excerpt or something but that's about the extent of my knowledge of him. His PC is on a couple of other discs with usually Prokofiev PC #3 which is my all time favorite so I gave it a go, but it just wasn't what I was interested in so I filed it away in my brain under "try again later". Anyways, I would be glad to try those works you recommended. I LOVED this SQ, so he's batting .500 with me right now. I'm looking forward to listening to this again with another group performing.

I'm kind of trying a few works of most of the major composers to get a feel for where they are at and plan to give Debussy and Ravel more of an exploration. I enjoy reading about them while listening to their music as well. And since I've already hijacked this thread, let me go ahead and ask what type of music Ravel and Debussy are classified as. I think I read that Debussy did not like being called Impressionist, but it seems like that label stuck? Are they considered late romantic or something else? Thanks.


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## Knorf

Both Ravel and Debussy are firmly post-tonal. They both pulled away from Romanticism consciously, Debussy especially, and explicitly rejected Germanic composition models. In some ways, despite the pleasingly sensual sound world, Debussy was one of the most radical composers, ever. All of the famous French Romantic composers had big problems with both of them.

ETA: if you need an "ism," while they both disavowed its appropriateness, I actually don't have a problem comparing them to the French Impressionist painters. Rejecting the "rules" is just one of the obvious parallels.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I kicked things off with the Ravel this afternoon by listening to the Quatuor Ébène, which tends to be rated highly, coming in 2nd on Trout’s list. I thought it was a lovely performance; well-phrased and shaped with some especially exuberant pizzicato in the scherzo. This is a work that I never tire of - every time I listen to Ravel I think that he is one of the foremost geniuses in music history. This time it struck me just how creative his use of rhythm is in this quartet. I can’t break it down very technically, but all those interlocking cross-rhythms throughout the entire work create such extraordinary textures from just four instruments. Ravel truly exploited every single possibility and expanded the humble quartet to encompass a huge variety of sonic ideas. Then there’s his exquisite harmonizations, and the Spanish guitar influences of the scherzo, and the patiently-evolving lyrical lines of the third movement, and the whirlwind energy of the perfectly succinct finale - this is truly one of the most brilliantly-composed works I have ever heard, and it reminds me every time of how entranced I was by Ravel’s rich language when I was first getting into classical. Tremendous!

I am already pretty familiar with the Italiano and Alban Berg recordings, so I think I’ll be exploring some of the others on the recommended list as well as Josquin and Portamento’s helpful recommendations above. And I’ll be sure to check out the 1928 Capet as an important document if nothing else.


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## Merl

I spent all yesterday and early today listening to a number of recordings of this wonderful SQ. Here's what I thought. I'll listen to a few more later today.

Ebene Quartet
Very engaging performance. Superbly well played but if I had one criticism then perhaps it's a little to slow at times. Convincing and well-recorded.
Emerson Quartet
I've had this years and rarely return to it. Listening again I understand why. Slightly homogenous, almost syrupy tone in the 3rd movement (which I found off-putting). Faster movements are played better and more aggressively but it's no more than a 'good' performance to my ears. Might be in Trout's top 10 but certainly not mine.
Belcea Quartet
Gorgeous textures and sensitivity. An excellent traversal. Very good all-rounder.
Juilliard Quartet
Not as immediately engaging as their live Testament account and returning to this 'classic' (it used to be a go-to) I found the tone slightly wiry after the others but can't fault the playing. No longer a go-to.
Ad Libitum Quartet
Very unpleasant recording. Odd balances, weird textures, disturbingly bassy and the whole experience was not good. Actually ended up skipping through. Yes, it was dire stuff. One of Naxos' worst.
Kodaly Quartet
From one of Naxos' worst to one of Naxos' best. Excellent performance from the criminally underrated Kodalys (a victim of Naxos Snobbery?). Like their LvB cycle this is class, stylish quartet playing in lovely recorded sound. Recommended.
Jerusalem Quartet
The Israeli quartet feel airier than others with lots of space around the instruments but I like a bit more fire and intensity in that finale. Very enjoyable performance though.
Italiano Quartet
Another classic account and top of Trout's list and for once I totally agree! Always loved this account. The Italianos are superb from start to finish and play amazingly. A tiny bit of tape hiss evident but really it's nothing and the recording is so warm you forget it's there. Everything about this performance is utterly magical. Check that finale out! Top of the shop.

I've got a few more to listen to today and tomorrow but that will do for now.


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## Enthusiast

A lovely work. There is a lot in it. I have several recordings. I think my favourites have been the Alban Berg and the Hagen Quartets. But perhaps my mind will change through this week's listenings.


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## flamencosketches

I really fell off with this thread. I listened to the Korngold once and didn't form much real impression of it, and never returned to it. Just haven't been in much of a string quartet mood. I'll try and get back into the groove with the Ravel F major quartet. It is a great work.

I have the Keller Quartet. Is there any love for this recording?


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## sbmonty

Listened to the Melos this morning. Fantastic! Giving the Arcanto String Quartet a listen right now. A bit more laid back but still nice.


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## Merl

BTW, please don't think I own all those recordings! I have a few on CD and a number on the HD but most were listened to via Spotify. Here's some more I listened to earlier.

Alban Berg
Another one I do own and again another go-to. Listening again has not made me change my mind. The slow 3rd movement is just heavenly and counterbalances those fantastic dancing pizzicatos in the scherzo. Finale is divine. Another top one.
Melos
Always a reliable choice the Melos have a sweetness of tone that makes these movements sing. The scherzo is really impressive and the whole performance oozes style.
Shanghai quartet.
Nice tone , too dry, boring interpretation. Found myself thinking about emptying the fridge-freezer part way through. Le yawn.
Keller
Very good all-rounder with a killer scherzo that sunny and joyful. Nowt wrong here but others dig deeper in the slower moments. 
Orlando
Romantic and almost old-fashioned but thoroughly convincing. Like this one.
Talich
One of the quicker ones I listened to but that's not what makes this stand out. Superb recording. Great playing and close to the best I've listened to in the past few days.


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## Merl

Listened to another couple before......

La Salle Quartet
Solid enough to begin with but I found these performances didn't flow. Nice sound but not convincing.
Eroica Quartet
Gut strings, HIP, little vibrato and a thoroiughly enjoyable disc. Those gut strings make a nice difference and create a quite lovely tone. refreshing performances only kept from teh very top by some odd rhythms in the finale but it's all very impressive.
Galimir Quartet (1980s)
The Galimir quartet have a rich tradition of playing this quartet (they recorded it in front of Ravel). This 1982 recording is imbued with brisk rhythms (the scherzo positively rattles by) and an excellent standard of playing. I have this as part of the Ravel Big Box that was available from Bach Guild for pennies. This is worth the price of the whole box on its own. Super account from start to finish. Recommended.

I think I'm Ravelled-out. I'm going for lie down in a darkened room (till tomorrow). Lol.


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## Eramire156

*Ravel times three - from The Legendary French String Quartets box set*

One of the reasons I landed on Ravel for my choice was that I could listen these recordings again

*Maurice Ravel
String Quartet in F major









Quatuor Capet

Quatuor Calvet

Quatuor Loewenguth*

Capet recorded 1928
Calvet recorded December 1936
Loewenguth recorded 24-25 June 1953


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## BlackAdderLXX

I'm listening to the Belcea right now. Man, that second movement makes me smile.


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## Bwv 1080

Going with the Eroica here, another great recording


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## Portamento

Eramire156 said:


> Capet recorded 1928
> Calvet recorded December 1936
> Loewenguth recorded 24-25 June 1953


I've heard the Capet recording, and while they don't displace the ABQ, I was very impressed by the group's flawless intonation.


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## Knorf

I can't stand sloppy intonation in chamber music, especially with strings, when there's zero excuse to not be perfectly in tune always. For this reason, there's a well-known set of Beethoven String Quartets that I had to get rid of, and never recommend, but I still see people recommending it all the time.

Actually, poor intonation in general really bothers me, in tonal music and post-tonal. Those dissonances need to be in tune just as much as the consonances!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Knorf said:


> I can't stand sloppy intonation in chamber music, especially with strings, when there's zero excuse to not be perfectly in tune always. For this reason, there's a well-known set of Beethoven String Quartets that I had to get rid of, and never recommend, but I still see people recommending it all the time.
> 
> Actually, poor intonation in general really bothers me, in tonal music and post-tonal. Those dissonances need to be in tune just as much as the consonances!


Alright, what's that Beethoven set? Is it the Busch - no, they only did the late quartets. Now I'm curious!


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Alright, what's that Beethoven set? Is it the Busch - no, they only did the late quartets. Now I'm curious!


My money's on Budapest stereo


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## BlackAdderLXX

Third day, third recording. This time Emerson.


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## Knorf

This will come off as heresy, but I highly rate the Emerson, one of the best recordings they've made, and find it better than Quartetto Italiano, which was my previous favorite. I like the Italiano better for Debussy, through.


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## Merl

I absolutely adore the scherzo in the Ravel SQ. Im a sucker for a dancing pizzicato. Only had a chance to listen to one since yesterday and it's my new favourite. The young, French Hermes quartet absolutely blast into the scherzo and finale. If you want a performance that really digs in then this could be the one for you. Incendiary performance but searingly beautiful in the slow movement. Ive gotta admit this disc has blown me away. The last time I enthused over a chamber disc this much was the Van Kuijk Schubert.


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> I absolutely adore the scherzo in the Ravel SQ. Im a sucker for a dancing pizzicato. Only had a chance to listen to one since yesterday and it's my new favourite. The young, French Hermes quartet absolutely blast into the scherzo and finale. If you want a performance that really digs in then this could be the one for you. Incendiary performance but searingly beautiful in the slow movement. Ive gotta admit this disc has blown me away. The last time I enthused over a chamber disc this much was the Van Kuijk Schubert.
> 
> View attachment 136264


Guess I know what I'm listening to tomorrow...


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## Josquin13

In regards to which 'out of tune' Beethoven cycle Knorf is referring to, I can think of three potential candidates from my own listening experience:

--Budapest Quartet--whose instruments aren't always properly tuned.
--Juilliard Quartet--& it's not just their 1st violinist Robert Mann who has occasional intonation lapses, either, as is often claimed, but the violist & cellist, as well.
--Lindsay Quartet--despite that I admire their interpretation of the 'Harp' Quartet, which they've recorded twice (early on for "Classics for Pleasure" and now Alto, & later on ASV). Yes, there are intonation problems, but their "Harp" interpretation gets more to the heart of this quartet than most other versions I've heard, & therefore I'd have to count it as one of the great recordings of the work (believe it or not): 




Fortunately, we don't have to listen to out of tune strings anymore, or scooping into the right (or wrong) note via violin slides--thanks largely to the Alban Berg Quartet, who raised the bar for string quartet playing during the 1970s & 80s, and taught many SQ ensembles that came after them. Although of course not all of pre-1970s quartets played out of tune.

Speaking of which, today I listened to Quartetto Italiano's Ravel and really liked it. The performance has held up well over the decades.

I'll have to dig out the Párkányi Quartet recording, and give it a spin. I remember that I bought it around the same time that I purchased the Ebene Quartet's award winning recording, & as good as the Ebenes are in this music, I thought the Párkányi Quartet offered the more insightful, imaginative interpretation. But then I prefer a slightly more romantic approach to this quartet, with more tonal heft and greater warmth in the strings, as noted earlier. In other words, I don't think the focus of the quartet should be about achieving a crystalline clarity and razor sharp precision (except perhaps in the 2nd & 4th movements). The music is more evocative and imaginative than that, and not without human feeling.

Speaking of which, has anyone listened to the Ysaÿe Quartet? I like them, too, in this music.

BlackadderLLX,

In response to your earlier question--yes, Debussy flatly rejected the "impressionist" label, & so did Ravel. It's hard to categorize Debussy's music, because (1) he's a classicist in the restrained clarity of his musical lines (for example, the way Michelangeli plays the Images Books 1 & 2, without resorting to hazy "impressionist" pedal effects), & keen interest in traditional structures and musical forms, such as those found in the French Baroque music of Rameau & Couperin (which likewise strongly influenced Ravel). And yet, (2) Debussy was also undeniably influenced by the romantic composers Liszt & Chopin (such as in the format he chose for his 24 Preludes, & 12 Etudes for piano), and to a lesser extent, Wagner. (3) He also loved the Renaissance music of Palestrina.

However, (4) it wasn't until Debussy attended a concert of Javanese Gamelan music in Paris, at his friend Erik Satie's insistence, that his musical aesthetic changed radically (actually it was several concerts--in 1887, 1889, & 1900; although Debussy didn't hear a large Gamelan orchestra until 1900, which is what made the biggest impact on him). It was at these Gamelan concerts that Debussy found the rhythms & counterpoint that he heard to be more closely connected to nature & the cosmos than Western music, and therefore superior to the rules of European musical theory (which he'd already begun to rebel against). As a result, Debussy's approach to rhythm changed in a dramatically non-western way, and that's when Debussy became a more original composer, and subsequently a major influence on most of the composers that came after him in the 20th century.

For example, I can recall the late British composer Oliver Knussen once saying (in a Gramophone magazine article),

"Debussy's impact on virtually all the music that followed him is incalculable. The likelihood is that if a composer has not been influenced by such a figure, he has deliberately reacted against the aesthetic. I don't think I have written a single note since I was 18 years old that doesn't have Debussy hovering somewhere in the background, though perhaps that's just wishful thinking. "

Hence, Debussy's music isn't so much about pretty Impressionist paintings (i.e. capturing the effects of light & color); although admittedly his music is immersed in the subject of nature, at times.

Also from the same Gramophone article,

"... the label of 'Impressionism' has often been attached to Debussy, who viewed the term with suspicion in its application both to painting and to music. 'Imbeciles', he called those who dubbed his music Impressionist, and it can readily be argued that the pictures and feelings he conjures up in, say, the orchestral Images or La mer, are of the utmost clarity. Debussy himself regarded them as 'realities', part of his aim to do 'something else' in music."

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/debussy-playing-with-colour

Clearly, Ravel's music has much in common with Debussy's, & was hugely influenced by it, as with his string quartet. Indeed, what holds true for Debussy, usually holds true for Ravel, at least to some degree. They even both loved Siamese cats.

Yet they both get labeled "impressionists". I don't like the label, either, but it has stuck.

I believe you'll understand a lot more about Debussy's music and why he does what does rhythmically, etc.--i.e. break all the rules--by listening to Javanese Gamelan music, and especially in direct relation to Debussy's solo piano works, "Estampes", and "Pour le piano", and to his opera "Pelleas et Melisande"--for starters, than you ever will by looking at the dabs of color in an Impressionist painting. It's also important to read Debussy's own words on Gamelan music, in order to better understand how this eastern music radically changed his musical aesthetic away from the European tradition. Here, for example, are some Debussy quotes on Gamelan music,

"Javanese rhapsodies, which, instead of confining themselves in a traditional form, develop according to the fantasy of countless arabesques."

"There used to be--indeed, despite the troubles that civilization has brought, there still are--some wonderful peoples who learn music as easily as one learns to breathe. Their school consists of the eternal rhythm of the sea, the wind in the leaves, and a thousand other tiny noises, which they listen to with great care, without ever having consulted any of those dubious treatises. Their traditions are preserved only in ancient songs, sometimes involving dance, to which each individual adds his own contribution century by century. Thus Javanese music obeys laws of counterpoint which make Palestrina seem like child's play. And if one listens to it without being prejudiced by one's European ears, one will find a percussive charm that forces one to admit that our own music is not much more than a barbarous kind of noise more fit for a traveling circus."* (* Taken from "Debussy on Music", translated by Richard Langham Smith, page 22.)

In other words, what had impressed Debussy so profoundly about Gamelan music was that it was created by listening "with great care" to nature and the eternal order of the world and cosmos. He saw Gamelan music as deriving from "the eternal rhythm of the sea, the wind in the leaves, and a thousand tiny noises..." This new, profound revelation--that music could directly stem from the cyclical and percussive rhythms of nature and the cosmos, as opposed to some "dubious" western musical treatise--had a profound effect on Debussy's compositional style thereafter, and would become a core part of his changing musical aesthetic.

All of which may seem off topic, but it isn't, because Ravel likewise found himself under the spell of many of the same influences as Debussy. & not only Indonesian Gamelan music, but also Orientalism, the folk music of Spain & Moorish Spain & the Middle East, Ancient Greece, Satie, Faure, Chabrier, Diaghilev & the Ballets Russes, Russian composers--especially Rimsky-Korsakov & Stravinsky, but also Balakirev, the Romantics--Liszt & Chopin, the French Baroque--Rameau & Couperin, the symbolist poems of Verlaine, Baudelaire, & Mallarmé, Edgar Allan Poe, American Jazz & Ragtime, etc.. Granted, to some extent, Debussy paved the way for Ravel. At least without Debussy, I don't think Ravel would have been the same composer (but possibly vice versa ..?).

Indeed, like Debussy, Ravel was hugely influenced by Javanese Gamelan music, & one can hear the influence not only in the 2nd movement of his string quartet (though some people think there's also a Spanish Basque influence in this movement), but also in his orchestral work, Ma Mére l'oye (Mother Goose), Daphnis et Chloe, Trois poèmes de Stéphane Mallarmé, Jeux d'eau, and Gaspard de la Nuit (which was also influenced by Middle Eastern rhythms), to name a number of major Ravel works.

Here are some listening examples,

Javanese Gamelan:





















Debussy:
--Pagodes, from Estampes: 



--Pour le piano (especially in the Prelude & Sarabande): 



--Pelleas et Melisande (there are many unmistakable Gamelan-like sounds & rhythms throughout this opera, unless you listen to a conductor that mistakenly thinks it should sound like Wagner. & especially in the more rapid & percussive exchanges of dialogue-- 



 and 



 ):






--The Sirènes movement, from Trois Nocturnes: 



--Images oubliées No. 1: 



--L'Isle joyeuse: 



--It is also in the sounds of water droplets in one section of "Reflets dans l'eau", from Debussy's Images Book 1 (which very few pianists recognize in the score, but among those that do are Michelangeli, Moravec, & Kocsis): 



--& in the sounds of the wind and crashing waves in La Mer: 




In these 'nature' works, Debussy had similarly listened "with great care" to the sounds of the natural world, and connected his compositional style to the eternal, cyclical rhythms of nature.

https://symposium.music.org/index.php/52/item/22-claude-debussys-gamelan
https://brenthugh.com/debnotes/gamelan.html

Here too are some examples from Ravel's music:

--String Quartet: 2nd movement: 









--Gaspard de la Nuit: 



https://escholarship.org/uc/item/6kt682kg

--"Laideronnette, impératrice des pagodes (from Ma Mére l'oye, or Mother Goose): 




(& Katsaris, on piano: 



)

& the whole Mother Goose suite: 




In a 1931 interview, Ravel stated, "I consider Javanese music the most sophisticated music of the Far East, and I frequently derive themes from it: 'Laideronnette' from Ma Mére l'Oye, with the tolling of its temple bells, was derived from Java both harmonically and melodically."

To conclude, here is an interesting & informative article on the Debussy & Ravel quartets, which includes a brief history of the recordings for each: http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics6/debrav.html


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## Knorf

It's so funny that you guys are trying to guess which Beethoven set it was I had to get rid off because of the intonation problems! To keep this thread from getting further derailed by that, I'll just tell you: it was the Lindsay String Quartet. I couldn't live with it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Knorf said:


> It's so funny that you guys are trying to guess which Beethoven set it was I had to get rid off because of the intonation problems! To keep this thread from getting further derailed by that, I'll just tell you: it was the Lindsay String Quartet. I couldn't live with it.


Aah, that's one of my favorites, though I know it's quite controversial. I haven't really noticed the intonation issues, but their thick, rich, indulgent tone really appeals to me and I'm a sucker for their more measured approach. But I totally understand that it can sometimes sound a bit lead-footed, sludgy, and unnecessarily weighty; and it would never be a definitive set for me or one I would return to on a frequent basis. Alright, mystery solved

Sorry, but I really can't abide anything from the Emersons. It always sounds like they're exerting way too much energy - very harsh, loud attacks with little dynamic shading and nuance. I remember a few months ago trying to listen to their Ravel recording and thinking they made the work sound like a Bartok quartet. Then I put on the Italiano and it was warm, rich, ravishing, balanced, soothing. Just what Ravel should be. Anyway, since I've inexplicably slacked off on Ravel the last couple days (so much music! So little time!) I think I'll do a comparison with the Belcea and Juilliard tomorrow - any consensus on which of the latter's is better, '59 or '92?


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sorry, but I really can't abide anything from the Emersons. It always sounds like they're exerting way too much energy - very harsh, loud attacks with little dynamic shading and nuance. I remember a few months ago trying to listen to their Ravel recording and thinking they made the work sound like a Bartok quartet.


It's absolutely baffling to me that you would say that. I agree the Italianos are mellower overall; in fact, that's one thing I don't like about theirs as much, is that it doesn't "dig in" in a few places where I think it is needed and clearly marked so in the score. I actually think the Italianos _underplay_ some of what is marked.

But to say the Emersons play Ravel like Bartók? That makes zero sense to me. Actually, less than zero, in that I don't even see how it's possible to think that. I have the Emersons' Bartók and their Ravel. They do not play them the same. Even in the places where Ravel and Bartók are the closest (and those moments definitely happen), I can't see anyone mistaking one for the other in the Emersons' performances.

But some people think Karajan conducts Debussy the same way as he conducts Bruckner, when it's obvious to me in ten seconds of listening to either that this isn't so. 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But I also think the Emersons are just as nuanced as the Italianos, although in different places at times, and I won't disagree that the Italianos' tone is ravishing



> Then I put on the Italiano and it was warm, rich, ravishing, balanced, soothing. Just what Ravel should be.


I disagree with this. Ravel _is_ those things, but not those things alone. Do you really, _truly_ think the opening of the fourth movement of the String Quartet should "warm, rich, ravishing, balanced, soothing"?


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Good points. I think it’s time for me to reassess the Emersons I’ve listened to some of their Bartók, their Ravel, their Beethoven, their Brahms, and my honest impression was always that of extreme harshness and little sensitivity. But you could definitely make the argument that the Italianos tend to play everything on the low-octane, “prettifying” side of things. I guess I just tend to prefer that to the Emersons’ more energetic approach. I think the Italiano approach works better in more streamlined, classical quartets like Mozart and Haydn; and the Emersons for more modern repertoire like Bartók and Shostakovich (hypothetical, haven’t heard any of their Shosty recordings if they even have any) that requires more muscle and momentum. Now you’ve piqued my interest again, and I’ll report back within the next couple days after I give the Emersons' Ravel a fair shot.


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## Knorf

Fair is fair! Maybe you still won't like the Emersons'. I do like the Quartetto Italiano in this and a wide variety of repertoire. They're unquestionably one of the great quartets in recorded history. As I mentioned, I prefer them over Emerson for the Debussy! In the Ravel, I like that they (the Emersons) bring out some of the more expressionist moments, such as the beginning of the 4th movement. It's marked _fortissimo_ and _du talon_. I assume you know what the latter means? Certainly, the bow rosin should fly!

The Emerson Quartet has a complete set of Shostakovich, and it's very good, albeit not my favorite.


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## Merl

I'm going to listen to the Ysaye and a gaggle of others today, Josquin. As far as the Emersons go, I was probably more than little hard on their performance. Perhaps I'm prejudiced as I paid a lot for it and yet it never beat my original Italliano's and Alban Berg discs and they're the ones I return to way more often.. Just 'good' is probably undervaluing it. I have no beef with the Emersons (I love their Schubert and most Beethoven, for example). However, I still don't feel they get to the heart of the Ravel in the same way that others do, especially when the music slows. They also seem to throw in random and quite unnecessary rubato throughout the first movement (which gives it a sweetness that it shouldn't have). I actually prefer the Emersons when they are aggressive. When I do play that disc I tend to play it for their Debussy, which I feel they do better, but I know we don't feel the same about that do we Knorf? Lol


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> ...When I do play that disc I tend to play it for their Debussy, which I feel they do better, but I know we don't feel the same about that do we Knorf? Lol


:lol: Well, as the saying goes, _de gustibus non est disputandum_. And, who knows, in a week, in a month, in a year-I might then have a totally different opinion. So it is.

I followed along with the score in my listening to the Ravel Quartet, and one of the things I like about the Emerson recording is they are very attentive and detailed to every last marking, without resorting to unnecessary exaggeration (for my taste.) I don't recall thinking they added anything I thought was unmusical or unwarranted, but I'll probably give it another listen. If anything I'd expect them to be criticized for being too literal, but that's not what you guys are saying at all. It is a pretty literal interpretation, but they execute everything so well, with such sensitivity and poise, that I just love it. I really think it's one of the best things they've done!

By the way, Merl, I agree with you about how good their Schubert is, especially #15 G major, D 887, which is my favorite performance of that quartet. And their #14 D minor "Death and the Maiden," D 810, is just amazing.

(One of the odd criticisms I've heard about the Emerson Quartet is that they play everything too perfectly, too accurately, too precisely. It's a bizarre criticism in my book. Should they deliberate try to make mistakes? Hah!)

I've heard Emerson perform live many times, more than any other string quartet, so while their recordings aren't always my favorites, I'll always have a strong fondness for them. One of the best things I ever heard in a chamber concert was their performance of the Schumann Piano Quintet in E-flat major, Op. 44, with Craig Sheppard. This was about 20 years ago, and one of the best concerts of my life! _So good_. I should try to see whether I can get a bootleg recording of that concert... I know some people...

They also did a series of concerts combining late Beethoven and late Shostakovich. Talk about heavy! But the audience (as well as I) ate it up. And then they'd play something like one of Webern's Five Movements for String Quartet, Op. 5, for an encore! Yep. Ok, I love those guys.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> :
> 
> (One of the odd criticisms I've heard about the Emerson Quartet is that they play everything too perfectly, too accurately, too precisely. It's a bizarre criticism in my book. Should they deliberate try to make mistakes? Hah!).


Yeah and add in some dodgy intonation for good measure. Lol.


----------



## Knorf

Merl said:


> Yeah and add in some dodgy intonation for good measure. Lol.


Right. They're far too in tune!


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Josquin13 said:


> SNIP
> 
> BlackadderLLX,
> 
> In response to your earlier question--yes, Debussy flatly rejected the "impressionist" label, & so did Ravel. It's hard to categorize Debussy's music, because (1) he's a classicist in the restrained clarity of his musical lines (for example, the way Michelangeli plays the Images Books 1 & 2, without resorting to hazy "impressionist" pedal effects), & keen interest in traditional structures and musical forms, such as those found in the French Baroque music of Rameau & Couperin (which likewise strongly influenced Ravel). And yet, (2) Debussy was also undeniably influenced by the romantic composers Liszt & Chopin (such as in the format he chose for his 24 Preludes, & 12 Etudes for piano), and to a lesser extent, Wagner. (3) He also loved the Renaissance music of Palestrina.
> 
> SNIP
> 
> To conclude, here is an interesting & informative article on the Debussy & Ravel quartets, which includes a brief history of the recordings for each: http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics6/debrav.html


I just now have had the chance to read this detailed and thoughtful response. Thank you. I've been enjoying getting to know both Ravel and Debussy and what you posted helps me to understand at least some of why I find their music to captivating. I will give these examples a listen, and I'm glad for something besides wikipedia to read about them! I guess my desire to classify their music comes more from a place of wanting to be able to discuss their style of composition without coming across as ignorant than anything else. It seems as though they are in a category of their own. Anyways, thanks again for your response.


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> I absolutely adore the scherzo in the Ravel SQ. Im a sucker for a dancing pizzicato. Only had a chance to listen to one since yesterday and it's my new favourite. The young, French Hermes quartet absolutely blast into the scherzo and finale. If you want a performance that really digs in then this could be the one for you. Incendiary performance but searingly beautiful in the slow movement. Ive gotta admit this disc has blown me away. The last time I enthused over a chamber disc this much was the Van Kuijk Schubert.
> 
> View attachment 136264


Thank you for sharing this. I'm listening to it right now and it's blowing my mind. I feel like I'm listening to it for the first time again. The energy and passion in this recording is amazing. The only slight nitpick I have is the extraneous noises in this recording seem _a little_ more obvious than in the others I have listened to, but I am sure that it's a result of whatever recording techniques they used to get such a live sound. I'm really not a fan of these kinds of sounds in a recording, but in the case of this one I give it a pass because the clarity and vibrancy of the engineering overall. This week has been the first time I have ever heard this work. Without exaggeration I say it is one of the most incredible things I have ever heard and this performance and recording is my favorite.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Thank you for sharing this. I'm listening to it right now and it's blowing my mind. I feel like I'm listening to it for the first time again. The energy and passion in this recording is amazing. The only slight nitpick I have is the extraneous noises in this recording seem _a little_ more obvious than in the others I have listened to, but I am sure that it's a result of whatever recording techniques they used to get such a live sound. I'm really not a fan of these kinds of sounds in a recording, but in the case of this one I give it a pass because the clarity and vibrancy of the engineering overall. This week has been the first time I have ever heard this work. Without exaggeration I say it is one of the most incredible things I have ever heard and this performance and recording is my favorite.


Aye, I should have warned you about that. The Hermes is VERY closely miked so you can hear everything! So there are a few off-putting noises but the performance is so vivacious you'll soon forget they're there. This disc has been a revelation for me. Glad you're enjoying the Ravel, BA. I think it's a great SQ too. I've been listeing to various versions again today (quick review later).


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> The Hermes is VERY closely miked so you can hear everything! So there are a few off-putting noises but the performance is so vivacious you'll soon forget they're there. This disc has been a revelation for me. Glad you're enjoying the Ravel, BA. I think it's a great SQ too. I've been listeing to various versions again today (quick review later).


It's a really small nitpick. Playing guitar for so long, I've just become accustomed to string noise, etc. being the enemy of All That Is Good In The World. But the trade off is more than worth it to have such a potent recording. Good thing the quartet is absolutely playing out of their minds on it as well. A fantastic session all around.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> It's a really small nitpick. Playing guitar for so long, I've just become accustomed to string noise, etc. being the enemy of All That Is Good In The World. But the trade off is more than worth it to have such a potent recording. Good thing the quartet is absolutely playing out of their minds on it as well. A fantastic session all around.


Ooh a fellow guitarist!! However if you can play more than power chords you may be well better than me. Haha. I start teaching some of my class of 8 and 9 year olds the basic chords next week via Zoom. Wish me luck. Now there will definitely be some intonation issues in that first session.


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## Enthusiast

sbmonty said:


> Listened to the Melos this morning. Fantastic! Giving the Arcanto String Quartet a listen right now. A bit more laid back but still nice.


I just listened to that one (Arcanto Quartet) and liked it very much. I listened to the Melos yesterday and enjoyed it but perhaps not as much as I used to. The field is getting very competitive. I still like the ABQ as much as any, though.


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## Merl

These are the Ravel performances I listened to last night and this morning via Spotify and from my HD.

Tesla Quartet
This is a very, very fine new recording. Wow, the standard of string quartet playing is high these days! Again another terrific recording that is not as closely miked as the Hermes but there's a lovely soundstage to this one. Lively, articulate interplay of an exceptionally gifted group. An easy recommendation and on par with Ebene, etc.
Van Kuijk
Polished, stylish and beautiful playing . First movement is particularly impressive in it's control of dynamics. Brisk reading full of wonderful highlights. Another terrific perfomance. I'm getting spoiled for choice. One more massive recommendation (by the way if you havent got their Schubert DATM disc please do - it's stunning). 
Ysaye
After your recommendation I was really looking forward to this, Jozzy! However, from the start I found it a bit uninvolving, lacking forward momentum occasionally and almost mechanical in places. It just never did it for me. If others had me on the edge of my seat then the Ysayes had me painting the back fence. Expertly played and recorded but I just couldn't get a feel for this one. Not 'bad' but not one I would easily recommend.
Skampa
The Skampa's late 90s recording is fairly closely miked too and it's a very immediate recording. I've gotta admit to liking this one quite a bit. The first movement is exceptionally well realised and the pizzicatos in the scherzo are very 'plucky' (they really jump out of the speakers). Quite an old-fashioned sort of reading but nothing wrong with that. It's very well done.
Petersen
Another easily recommendle performance. There's a liquid feeling to these movements. Everything flows very organically and the finale is definitely one of the more fiery and wirey ones I've heard. Hard to fault such a superbly played recording. Another winner.
Tinalley
This group of Aussies have really got the measure of the Ravel on this live disc (you'd never know it was live). These are colourful, close-up, crisp and very commited performances with a 'rocky' bounce which is aided by stunning Decca sound (that low end sounds unbelievable through my speakers upstairs). This has has shot up in my estimation. World-class quartet playing. Huge recommendation from me.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Ooh a fellow guitarist!! However if you can play more than power chords you may be well better than me. Haha. *I start teaching some of my class of 8 and 9 year olds* the basic chords next week via Zoom. Wish me luck. Now there will definitely be some intonation issues in that first session.


Good luck with that!


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## Shosty

I listened to the Ebene recording yesterday and today and I absolutely love it, it will probably be my future go to for this SQ. I also watched the Bruce Adolphe lecture on the quartet with Escher Quartet playing parts of it, and although a lot of the technical music talk went right over my head I really enjoyed it and learned a lot. I've fallen in love with this quartet and the first theme from the opening movement keeps repeating in my brain!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I certainly won't match Merl for volume of listening and comparison (hats off to you!) but I am still taking the opportunity this week to hear more versions than I usually would for this activity since the work invites so many different interpretations. This afternoon featured a little comparison with the Emerson, Belcea, and Juilliard '59. First off, I must apologize because once I started listening to the Emersons I realized that I had never heard the their Ravel before and when I spoke of my previous distaste for it, I was getting it confused with their Schubert 14. Obsessive listening will do that to you, mixing things up in your head Anyway, I didn't dislike their take on the Ravel but they definitely have some quirks. I think I've put my finger on what it is about their style that I can find irritating - _exaggeration_. The contrasts between loud and soft are especially jarring and the loud sections in particular I hear as somewhat monochrome and too aggressive. It sort of seems like they're trying too hard and it detracts from the natural flow of the music. The first movement gains by emphasizing the contrasts and shifts in texture but some of the rubato and tempo changes were distracting. They also have a very thick vibrato that sounds overmilked (especially prominent in the slow movement). I liked their scherzo and finale though, which definitely bristled with the kind of kinetic energy I look for in these romping dances. Overall I rate Emerson a notch below "recommendable" on my personal scale.

As for the other two, Belcea is a nice central recommendation though maybe a bit straightforward for my liking. Their finale is even more aggressive than the Emersons, which I found surprising after the relative "safeness" of the rest. Beautiful, sensitive playing though. However it was the classic Juilliard that made the strongest impression on me. I am a huge fan of their Beethoven and wasn't disappointed here. They tend to have a lighter, more inflected "French" sounding style with tight vibrato and subtle interplay that I think is right on the money for this kind of repertoire. The playing is vibrant and imaginative with lots of delightful little touches to really make you listen anew. And there was still plenty of momentum in the fast movements, driven by the Juilliards' technical security and committed musicianship. The Living Stereo sound is predictably wonderful and overall this is a new favorite alongside my old standby Italiano, ABQ, and Melos.


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## Knorf

I caught up with a couple recordings of the Ravel that were new to me: Quatuor Ébène and Quatuor Talich. They're both excellent. Different plusses and minuses. However, I see no intrinsic reason at all to prefer either over the Emerson Quartet or the Quartetto Italiano! (My two previous favorites.) All of these recordings are very professional, very sensitive and musical, very committed, and very well recorded. All of the highest recommendations in the last few days are in the same boat: ABQ, Hermès Quartet, etc. Honestly, it's an embarrassment of riches in some ways. None of them have all of the answers (that's just not possible), but none of them are less then recommendable, and I think it's absurd to say otherwise.

In the end, to rank them would require a totally arbitrary splitting of hairs, and I've decided I just don't care to do that. They're all recommendable! I can't see how anyone who cares about this music would be less than pleased with any or all of the recordings mentioned as favorites in this thread.

If you all want to split hairs and fight over which is best, which is 2nd, which is 3rd, etc., go right on ahead. But I'm out; they're all excellent.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> I caught up with a couple recordings of the Ravel that were new to me: Quatuor Ébène and Quatuor Talich. They're both excellent. Different plusses and minuses. However, I see no intrinsic reason at all to prefer either over the Emerson Quartet or the Quartetto Italiano! (My two previous favorites.) All of these recordings are very professional, very sensitive and musical, very committed, and very well recorded. All of the highest recommendations in the last few days are in the same boat: ABQ, Hermès Quartet, etc. Honestly, it's an embarrassment of riches in some ways. None of them have all of the answers (that's just not possible), but none of them are less then recommendable, and I think it's absurd to say otherwise.
> 
> In the end, to rank them would require a totally arbitrary splitting of hairs, and I've decided I just don't care to do that. They're all recommendable! I can't see how anyone who cares about this music would be less than pleased with any or all of the recordings mentioned as favorites in this thread.
> 
> If you all want to split hairs and fight over which is best, which is 2nd, which is 3rd, etc., go right on ahead. But I'm out; they're all excellent.


I agree. After a total binge listen the differences at the top end are miniscule and just come down to minor points and a preference for a certain tone, etc. I listened to a few more last night and then skipped thru another half-dozen, only pausing if something really stood out. I've not actually counted how many recordings there are of the Ravel quartet but I'd hazard it could well be over 200 at least. I've made a few observations over the past few days of listening to these. I'll share them at the end of the week. The best of last night's final batch :

*Tokyo
*An excellent traversal through all 4 movements. The resonant acoustic might put some off but what a Performance! May be even better with a remaster.
*Hagen*
Very sensitive, straight approach. The playing is world-class, it's all there but it doesn't speak to me. Used to be a fave but this one's slipped down the pile.
*Sequoia*
Charmingly sweet. The tone is just beautiful. Great range of dynamics. Very pleasurable disc. 
*Chilingirian*
The old CFP standard. Now showing its age but its warmly romantic sound does still have some charm
*Signum*
Another tone masterclass. Really good account. Very similar in style to Ebene
*Lindsays*
This one caught me on the fly as it's absolutely riveting. Up front recording but not too close. Great sound and very lively, buoyant edge-of-seat recordings. This is one helluva good one. Check the syncopated rhythms in the scherzo. Spellbinding.
*Vlach
*Classic 1959 recording on Supraphon still has its charm but there are some interpretive choices here I don't like (that held note at the beginning of the finale) but the playing is so wamly joyful. It may be a classic but with better modern versions in better sound I'd doubt I'd return to it.
*Auryn
*If you like the Italliano's classic account I'd say this is the updated version (albeit with a broader first movement). Superbly played and very much in the style of the Auryn's LVB cycle. Easy recommendation.

*Non-competitive* (most sampled but a few played straight through) . There's some big names here too.... 
Casals
Panocha
Modigliani
Daedalus
Orford (horrible tone)
Alexander


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## Mandryka

Modigliani are rather interesting -- humour, lightness, colours. Nothing intense. I think it's a bit original.



Merl said:


> *Non-competitive*
> Modigliani


Ah, I just saw that. Well, there is no truth . . .


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## BlackAdderLXX

Y'all have inspired me to up my game this morning so I'm listening to Emerson AND Melos. I know...incredible... 

At any rate, I feel as though any attempt I might make to add to the discussion would be akin to a toddler attempting to discuss particle physics with Oppenheimer, let me just say that they are both excellent.


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## Enthusiast

^ Toddlers can have a way of saying something simple that is also spot on.


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## Merl

Every opinion is valid, Blackadder. Some people on this thread will leave me dead when they start discussing music theory (I know very little about it) but I know what I like the sound of and why. Mine is a more raw reaction to what I hear so I express what I like or dislike in very simplistic terms as that's all I'm capable of. No one is expecting a full breakdown of a performance based on a discussion of counterpoint, etc. I leave that to the real musos here. 

The Modigliani was one I listened to throughout, Mandryka, mainly because I really like what I've heard of them up until now. I didn't dislike it in any way. It was good and very well played and quite an individual take on the piece. It just didn't resonate with me. However, good is sadly 'not competitive' for me in comparison to some of the others I've listened to with so many recordings. There are similar accounts by very high profile SQs that I've had to be equally harsh on. I'd put such excellent artists as the Panochas, Hagens and Casals in the same group in these recordings and all of them have their merits. I know it sounds harsh but as a kid in a sweet shop with such huge choice I'm only going to go for the best. I also realise that my view of sherbert lemons is going to differ massively from someone else. I'm really glad you found something in that Modigliani performance that I didn't. Opinions are like ar*eholes. We all have one. :lol:

Btw, the only two I've actually heard that I wouldn't want to hear again are the Ad Libitum (which the Penguin guide praised unreservadly and Classics Today savaged) because of its rather strange recording balances and production and the Orfords who had a tone I found deeply unpleasant to my ear. I could live with any one of the other recordings I've heard quite comfortably. The majority of recordings are good or much better.

Edit: I'm desperately trying to hear the Parkanyi Quartet's account, which Jozzy mentioned. It's eluded my attempts up to now.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Not sure how necessary it is, but I'm sticking with the weekly reminder - *Knorf* is up next! Current schedule:

05/24-05/31: Knorf
05/31-06/07: Simplicissimus
06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox
06/14-06/21: calvinpv
06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
06/28-07/05: Euler
07/05-07/12: Iota
07/12-07/19: DTut

And, for reference, an updated list of quartets featured so far:

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)


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## Knorf

Holy flirking schnitt! I'd better start thinking fast. Hmmm.

As always for these discussions, one person's treasure is another person's dreck. _De gustibus non est disputandum_ and all that. If you like it, let no one persuade you not to. On the other hand, if someone else likes it, whom you think decently trustworthy, consider giving it a try. I am gratified to see quite a bit of the latter in this thread! We won't always agree, but that's great! We're communicating our passion for the greatest and most indispensible art form humanity has ever created.

ETA: for next week, I'm definitely considering a less well-known quartet, nothing too extremely esoteric, but one with fewer than 100 recordings available. With the very famous quartets, we can get preoccupied with discussing the merits of the numerous competing recordings. I do enjoy that-quite a lot in fact-but for something different it'd be nice to get back to discussing the music itself more.


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## Merl

Aye, I'm a bit Ravelled out. Lol. Massive apologies for all those Ravel reviews but it's such a warhorse I wanted to explore as many recordings as possible and thought it pointless talking about a piece I know so well. I'll just stick to saying "it's nice" next time. Just please don't pick Beethoven, Knorf. My head won't be able to take it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Aye, I'm a bit Ravelled out.


One might say you're un*ravel*led


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Aye, I'm a bit Ravelled out. Lol. Massive apologies for all those Ravel reviews but it's such a warhorse I wanted to explore as many recordings as possible and thought it pointless talking about a piece I know so well. I'll just stick to saying "it's nice" next time. Just please don't pick Beethoven, Knorf. My head won't be able to take it.


What are you apologizing for? Your reviews are immensely helpful, and I think everyone would agree!


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What are you apologizing for? Your reviews are immensely helpful, and I think everyone would agree!


They _are_ helpful, but I still want him to apologize. He makes the rest of us look lazy! I mean, do we really wish to to reward this behavior?! :lol:

That's it. I'm choosing _Die große fuge_.

(Just kidding. That's not my choice.)


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## Eramire156

Merl said:


> Aye, I'm a bit Ravelled out. Lol. Massive apologies for all those Ravel reviews but it's such a warhorse I wanted to explore as many recordings as possible and thought it pointless talking about a piece I know so well. I'll just stick to saying "it's nice" next time. Just please don't pick Beethoven, Knorf. My head won't be able to take it.


Merl, take a break, little rest will do you good, we need a fresh Merl. I didn't mean for you to quote BlackAdder to un*ravel* with my pick. Rest up we need your A game, I may not always agree with your reviews, but they make me listen with fresh ears.

P.S. What did the mailman deliver yesterday, the Orford, which I originally I ordered for the Beethoven.


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## Merl

Eramire156 said:


> Merl, take a break, little rest will do you good, we need a fresh Merl. I didn't mean for you to quote BlackAdder to un*ravel* with my pick. Rest up we need your A game, I may not always agree with your reviews, but they make me listen with fresh ears.
> 
> P.S. What did the mailman deliver yesterday, the Orford, which I originally I ordered for the Beethoven.


No the Tokyo Quartet's LVB cycle. Lol. I have a nearly complete set I got from my public library sale years ago but a few of the cds have always skipped. I saw a mint one on ebay secondhand and bagged it for £6.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I certainly won't match Merl for volume of listening and comparison (hats off to you!) but I am still taking the opportunity this week to hear more versions than I usually would for this activity since the work invites so many different interpretations. This afternoon featured a little comparison with the Emerson, Belcea, and Juilliard '59. First off, I must apologize because once I started listening to the Emersons I realized that I had never heard the their Ravel before and when I spoke of my previous distaste for it, I was getting it confused with their Schubert 14. Obsessive listening will do that to you, mixing things up in your head Anyway, I didn't dislike their take on the Ravel but they definitely have some quirks. I think I've put my finger on what it is about their style that I can find irritating - _exaggeration_. The contrasts between loud and soft are especially jarring and the loud sections in particular I hear as somewhat monochrome and too aggressive. It sort of seems like they're trying too hard and it detracts from the natural flow of the music. The first movement gains by emphasizing the contrasts and shifts in texture but some of the rubato and tempo changes were distracting. They also have a very thick vibrato that sounds overmilked (especially prominent in the slow movement). I liked their scherzo and finale though, which definitely bristled with the kind of kinetic energy I look for in these romping dances. Overall I rate Emerson a notch below "recommendable" on my personal scale.
> 
> As for the other two, Belcea is a nice central recommendation though maybe a bit straightforward for my liking. Their finale is even more aggressive than the Emersons, which I found surprising after the relative "safeness" of the rest. Beautiful, sensitive playing though. However it was the classic Juilliard that made the strongest impression on me. I am a huge fan of their Beethoven and wasn't disappointed here. They tend to have a lighter, more inflected "French" sounding style with tight vibrato and subtle interplay that I think is right on the money for this kind of repertoire. The playing is vibrant and imaginative with lots of delightful little touches to really make you listen anew. And there was still plenty of momentum in the fast movements, driven by the Juilliards' technical security and committed musicianship. The Living Stereo sound is predictably wonderful and overall this is a new favorite alongside my old standby Italiano, ABQ, and Melos.


This is very interesting and helpful! I've been listening only to the Emersons for this piece, and though I have loved it, it is clear that I will get a lot out of listening to another quartet's version. My first choice will be the Julliards.


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## Eramire156

Merl said:


> No the Tokyo Quartet's LVB cycle. Lol. I have a nearly complete set I got from my public library sale years ago but a few of the cds have always skipped. I saw a mint one on ebay secondhand and bagged it for £6.


It's an addiction, we couldn't stop if we tried.


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## Josquin13

I'm a huge fan of Cuarteto Casals, but was similarly disappointed with their Ravel/Debussy recordings. They're better in the music of Mozart, Haydn, & Beethoven...

Another disc that people might want to seek out & sample from, which has received rave reviews in certain quarters, is a 1992 Channel Classics recording from the Orpheus String Quartet--of the Debussy, Ravel & Dutilleux quartets. I forgot to mention it in my earlier post, but it's a very good performance, and you can find it on You Tube:




https://www.channelclassics.com/catalogue/3892-Debussy-Ravel-Dutilleux/

In response to some earlier posts,

I think it's safe to say that since about the 1980s we've been living in a 'golden age' for string quartet playing. The technical standards are high today, and there are many fine quartets on the scene, with a large number of recordings to choose from (having accumulated over the past 40 years or so). It's not hard to find one that you like, and several more that are equally just as good, depending on your tastes & expectations. The sheer quantity of excellent recordings available for the Debussy/Ravel coupling, for example, attest to this (as do Merl's many enthusiasms!).

I'm sorry that you didn't care for the Ysaÿe Quartet recording, Merl. Come to think of it, I recall that some people preferred the Ysaÿe's 'live' Ravel over their Decca studio account (though I've never directly compared the two Ravels, as I have done their two Debussy recordings): Here's a link to the Ysaÿe's live Ravel performance, if you're still game (EDIT: Apparently, you're not, Oh, come on, just one more... I am reminded of Mr. Creosote in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life),


















It brings up the old question, do French musicians play the music of Ravel and Debussy better than non-French musicians? I believe there's a musical aspect to a musician's native language that is integral to their country's music (which is certainly true of vocal music, especially lieder, mélodies, & operas). & I think there are interesting differences to be heard between how a native French quartet (or pianist, etc.) plays the music of Debussy & Ravel versus a foreign quartet. Yet it's not easy to articulate why that's so. I suppose it has to be heard. For one, the phrasing can be different. However, I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than the other, they're just different. Indeed, some of the best interpretations I've heard of Debussy & Ravel have come from non-French musicians, whose imaginations are sometimes freer or not as tied down in their response to the score (such as Pogorelich, Arrau, Argerich, & Michelangeli in Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit, for example; although I do still like a number of French pianists in Gaspard, as well, such as Monique Haas & Samson François). The musical training and sensibility of non-native musicians is often unmistakably different in comparison to musicians that trained at the Conservatoire de Paris, for example--versus say the Royal College of Art, or Moscow Conservatory, or Juilliard or Curtis, etc.. That was especially true back in the 1970s & 80s (& before), when there were still teachers at the Paris Conservatory with close links back to the Paris of Debussy & Ravel, and in certain cases even direct ties back to the two composers (such as Marcel Campi, Marguerite Long, Magda Tagliaferro, & Vlado Perlemuter, to name a number of pianists; as well as the conductor Manuel Rosenthal, etc.).

So, I think it's important to hear how a French quartet plays this music, and the Ysaÿe Quartet recordings are currently the best I've heard from a modern French quartet (with the possible exception of the more recent Ebene Quartet), having trained at the Paris Conservatory in the 1980s. Which is one of the reasons why I included them on my top 8 list. (Granted, there may be other French quartets that play this music even better than the Ysaÿes. I have not, for example, heard Quatour Parisii, or Quatour Stanislav or Quatour Debussy in this music, but have liked their playing of other French composers of the period, such as Milhaud, Ropartz, Faure, Chausson, Schmitt, Lekeu, etc.. Both Quatour Parisii & Quatour Debussy's Ravel (& Debussy), for instance, have received excellent reviews, & are likely worth checking out (especially Quatour Parisii's):

Quatour Parisii: 



https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8040869--debussy-quatuor-danses
https://www.amazon.com/Ravel-Fauré-...y+ravel&qid=1590097478&s=music&sr=1-9-catcorr
https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Quat...debussy+timpani&qid=1590090850&s=music&sr=8-1.)

With that said, I'm not surprised to hear people claim that the German/Austrian quartets play Debussy & Ravel better than the French. The Hagen Quartet (who I heard on YT this week), Melos Quartett, & Alban Berg Quartets are each remarkable in this music. & I agree that German musicians can be exceptional in the French repertory, in general. At the same time, they don't generally sound very French to me, which Mandryka has claimed is "a good thing" in regards to the Hagen Quartet's Ravel. & maybe so. Nevertheless, I still enjoy listening to the way French musicians play the French repertory, and especially the music of Debussy & Ravel. They bring a different sensibility to the score, & those differences always interest me.

But you're in good company, Merl--after the original Ysaÿe Quartet premiered Debussy's Quartet, Debussy told the 1st violinist that he had "played like a pig" (!). Perhaps Debussy didn't like French musicians much; in fact, come to think of it, he seems to have mostly preferred foreign pianists in his solo piano music--such as Riccardo Viñes, George Copeland, & Harold Bauer (along with two young female pianists, Marcelle Meyer & Gaby Casadesus, who were French). Oh well. For some reason, I find Ravel's sensibility to be more Parisian than Debussy's--albeit with ties back to the Basque Spain of his mother, although I'm not sure that I can articulate why. Except to point out that Debussy was more of an anglophile than Ravel. To my knowledge Ravel didn't share Debussy's great love of English literature & painting. Nor are there English language titles strewn about Ravel's opus, as there are with Debussy (who also hired an English governess for his young daughter, Chou Chou). Yet neither composer drew any borders in regards to their eclecticism.

To expand upon my question above--in relation to my previous post, I find there is also a significant difference between those conductors that have listened intently to Gamelan music--in preparation to conduct the more Gamelan influenced works by Debussy & Ravel, than those conductors that have not bothered to do so, & clearly don't understand the connection deeply. For example, the French conductor Roger Desormiere appears to have carefully considered the Gamelan influence in Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande before he conducted & recorded the opera--since he achieves Gamelan-like orchestral effects throughout the score that most conductors don't know are there.

Which has me wondering if that same correlation may hold true for the string quartets? Especially since we know that the 2nd movement of Ravel's quartet was composed under the direct influence of Gamelan music. Which begs the question--are there quartet groups that understand the Gamelan influence in Ravel's quartet more deeply than others? & especially in regards to the 2nd movement? Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that question, since I've never thought about it before when listening to the quartet. But I find it an intriguing question.

& I will say that in relation to Ravel's orchestral scores the answer would be an emphatic "yes"; because, as noted, there are definitely conductors that understand the Gamelan influence in Ravel's "Ma Mere l'Oye, for example, better than others (such as Charles Dutoit, for instance). Therefore, why shouldn't the same be true for Ravel's string quartet? & if so, which quartet, if any, 'gets' the Gamelan influence in this music better than others? (like Desormiere did with Pelleas).

P.S. I'm presently listening to the Emerson Quartet play the Ravel, for the first time. So far, this is one of the best performances I've ever heard from this group (who I don't always get on well with). A fantastic first movement, and I like how aggressive they are in the fourth movement. The second movement was slightly different in subtle ways, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Just a first impression. I'll be listening to this again. Thanks for the push, Knorf.


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## Iota

Thanks for both this and #617, Josquin13, very interesting posts. 

Though I've been aware of it for a long time in Debussy's piano and orchestral music (and to a lesser extent Ravel's), I don't think I've ever consciously picked up on gamelan influences in string quartet music, primarily perhaps because of their very differing timbral nature. But I will listen with new inquisitiveness after your intriguing musings, after all there's no reason why its influence shouldn't have permeated elsewhere.

I certainly hear it very vividly in Boulez at times too, Sur Incises springs to mind.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Josquin13 said:


> To expand upon my question above--in relation to my previous post, I find there is also a significant difference between those conductors that have listened intently to Gamelan music--in preparation to conduct the more Gamelan influenced works by Debussy & Ravel, than those conductors that have not bothered to do so, & clearly don't understand the connection deeply. For example, the French conductor Roger Desormiere appears to have carefully considered the Gamelan influence in Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande before he conducted & recorded the opera--since he achieves Gamelan-like orchestral effects throughout the score that most conductors don't know are there.
> 
> Which has me wondering if that same correlation may hold true for the string quartets? Especially since we know that the 2nd movement of Ravel's quartet was composed under the direct influence of Gamelan music. Which begs the question--are there quartet groups that understand the Gamelan influence in Ravel's quartet more deeply than others? & especially in regards to the 2nd movement? Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that question, since I've never thought about it before when listening to the quartet. But I find it an intriguing question.
> 
> & I will say that in relation to Ravel's orchestral scores the answer would be an emphatic "yes"; because, as noted, there are definitely conductors that understand the Gamelan influence in Ravel's "Ma Mere l'Oye, for example, better than others (such as Charles Dutoit, for instance). Therefore, why shouldn't the same be true for Ravel's string quartet? & if so, which quartet, if any, 'gets' the Gamelan influence in this music better than others? (like Desormiere did with Pelleas).





Iota said:


> Thanks for both this and #617, Josquin13, very interesting posts.


I agree. Thank you Josquin13 for your post here and also #617. I finally finished working through the examples you posted and it was very informative to listen to the compositions of Ravel and Debussy side by side with Gamelan music. It has definitely helped my understanding and appreciation of their music.


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## Merl

Eramire156 said:


> Merl, take a break, little rest will do you good, we need a fresh Merl. I didn't mean for you to quote BlackAdder to un*ravel* with my pick. Rest up we need your A game, I may not always agree with your reviews, but they make me listen with fresh ears.
> 
> P.S. What did the mailman deliver yesterday, the Orford, which I originally I ordered for the Beethoven.


Do I have an 'A game'? You may like the Orford a lot. I just didn't like their tone. Listened to another few.....

Dante
Very English sounding interpretation. Perfectly performed and enjoyable in its Englishness but not competitive with the best.
Talich (1985)
Not anywhere near as good as their other set. Ok.
Nuovo
Very very slowwwwww. Le snore.
Stenhammer
Similar in style to the Emersons but I preferred this one more. Really pleasant natural acoustic in this very good recording.


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## Eramire156

Josquin, thanks for reminding me about the Orpheus, I will give it a listen later today.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Dante
> Very English sounding interpretation. Perfectly performed and enjoyable in its Englishness but not competitive with the best.


Genuinely curious - what does "English sounding" mean to you? Maybe it's something that only Englishmen would recognize, but I've noticed certain performing styles for French, Americans, and Russians but not English, who genuinely seem to be pretty flexible. I want to hear that recording now to see if I can hear what you're talking about!


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## Knorf

Iota said:


> ...I certainly hear it very vividly in Boulez at times too, Sur Incises springs to mind.


Certainly! In _Rituel in Memoriam Bruno Maderna_ and _Eclat/multiples_ as well.

And of course _Le Marteau sans maître_ consciously added in references to the sounds of African music, especially West Africa, as well as Japan, on top of Balinese Gamelan. For some people, appreciating the world music influences and Debussian esthetic is a way into Boulez's admittedly complex sound world.

To get back on topic, I hugely regret that I didn't buy the Quatuor Diotima's disc of Boulez's last revision of _Livre pour quatour_. It has vanished, except for outrageously marked up used prices here and there. If anyone has a lead, please let me know!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Genuinely curious - what does "English sounding" mean to you? Maybe it's something that only Englishmen would recognize, but I've noticed certain performing styles for French, Americans, and Russians but not English, who genuinely seem to be pretty flexible. I want to hear that recording now to see if I can hear what you're talking about!


I don't know really, ACB. It's just the sound of the ensemble. I didn't even know they were English till I looked them up later. The first thing I wrote after the first few minutes of listening to this was "Very English sounding". It really does. I agree it's something I've never written before but it was the first thing that came into my head. Give me a minute to listen again and I'll see if I can put my finger on why I thought that.

Edit: Just listened again quickly. It's the way they play it. A very Elgarian sound. Just compared it to the Belcea and Lindsays. This has an old-worldly, VW / Lark-Ascending sound. Quite a sweet and mellow first violin. I'm still not exactly sure what I mean. Haha.

Edit 2: As I said before, the Galimir's Ravel SQ is still available as part of the very good Ravel Big Box. Whole mp3 box with the Galimir included is still 99 cents! Worth it for that alone.
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Big-Ravel-Various-artists
/dp/B07YNT98RL/ref=sr_1_23?dchild=1&keywords=ravel&qid=1590170872&sr=8-23


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## Merl

Sorry for the double post. Just to say I've just listened to the Orpheus recording and it's a belter (thanks Jozzy)! Getting those syncopated rhythms right in this SQ is essential and the Orpheus Quartet absolutely storm it. I love the deep tone of this performance. Its a close up recording but with such clarity it's as though they're sat in front of you. Stellar recording. I'll compile a list of the recordings I've listened to that have really impressed me over the week, tomorrow.


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## Knorf

Channel Classics usually makes great recordings. Another one I'll need to investigate!

Thanks, Merl. I guess.


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## Merl

I've loved this string quartet since the very first time I heard it and play it fairly often. I still marginally prefer it to its usual disc companion, Debussy's String Quartet, and I've had a number of recordings of it for many years. However, I've always thought that there might be someone else who could do it differently than the excellent versions I already had. In particular I was looking for an earthier account, particularly in great recorded sound. However, I appreciate all approaches to this string quartet so no recording was out of the equation. So that was why I set off on the marathon Ravel listen. I knew there were a lot of recordings of this work, but until I actually started delving into it I could not imagine just how many there really were (hundreds)!

All week I've been listening to recordings and, apart from a few that I've personally disliked for one reason or another, the majority are at least good and many are excellent, only separated by slight personal preferences. I looked at Trout's list and found out about others that were renowned by critics and SQ fans. The only one I really wanted to hear was the Parkanyi disc that Joz endorsed but unfortunately my search was fruitless.

So here you go. Remember these are personal preferences. Some I already had but many others were new to me. The first set of recordings are the ones I personally think are very special but everything in the second and third sets I'd rate as excellent or really good in their own way too and many of you will no doubt disagree with me and love these recordings more. No particular order for each set.



































Set 1: Hermes Orpheus Italiano Lindsays Tinalley

Set 2: Stenhammer Talich (2012) Tokyo Tesla Petersen Ebene Belcea Jerusalem Alban Berg Van Kuijk Kodaly Arcanto Sacconi Eroica Gailimir (1982) Orlando Skampa Auryn

Set 3: Hagen Emerson Sequoia Juilliard (live and studio) Melos Keller Dante New World Loewenguth Alexander Wilanow Ysaye (live on Youtube) Vlach Cypress Travnicek Avalon

What I will say is that the standard of string quartet playing today is outstanding and, I'd argue, technically even better than it was in the the 20th century. The ensemble playing on some of the latest sets is utterly fantastic (although the interpretation sometimes may be one I don't rate). It's been a pleasure listening to all these recordings. I didn't do it to say "Hey look at me and all the recordings I've listened to", I did it to find something new to me and I did. If you haven't had the chance to hear any of the recordings in set 1, and you love this string quartet, I'd urge you to give them a try. Every one is outstanding in their own way. I hope I've not hogged this thread too much. For the next SQ I'll try and just stick to discussing the music, not the recording, but this was too good an opportunity to waste.


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## Enthusiast

It has been a great experience listening so much to the Ravel - I must have heard it some 20 times over the week - and listening to quite a few different accounts. In alphabetical order I have listened to the ABQ, Arcanto, Belcea, Borodin, Hagen, Italiano, Melos and Takacs accounts, at least once for each and several time for some. The ones that have stood out for me are the ABQ (still my favourite and well nigh perfect for me), the Arcanto, the Borodin (nicely balmy) and the Takacs. None of them were bad in any way.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I'd never heard this Quartet prior and it is one of the most beautiful works I've ever heard. I've also learned a lot about Ravel in general and Debussy as well so this week has been great. I'd say I've probably listened to this work about a dozen times by Emerson, Melos, Ebene, Hermes and Belcea. At the risk of saying something that could get me banned on TC, I think I could live with any one of those recordings if it came to it. They were all well preformed and well engineered. I think it was Merl that gave the analogy of us being like kids in a candy store. There really are a lot of excellent quartets, and a literal glut of this particular work. I actually purchased my first recording of this work this week and went with the Hermes. To me it felt the most passionate. Anyway, thanks for all the conversation on this subject, this Weekly String Quartet is a great idea and has helped me to learn a lot by drilling down into the details of a specific work.


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## Josquin13

For those that aren't quite ready to leave the Ravel SQ for next week's selection, I found the following review of the Dante Quartet's Ravel/Debussy disc on Archiv Music and I think it's very good & wanted to share it with our group. The writer puts the requirements & difficulties of interpreting Ravel's quartet into a clear perspective, & I especially liked Fanfare critic William Zagorski's comment regarding the two quartets & the ABQ's playing of them. Here's the review:

"DEBUSSY String Quartet. RAVEL String Quartet. Violin Sonata No. 2 in G 1 • Dante Quartet; Krysia Osostowicz (vn); 1 Simon Crawford-Phillips (pn) 1 • HYPERION 67759 (72: 26)

The Dante Quartet has received positive notices in these pages for prior releases from a number of contributors, including yours truly, and this review of the latest addition to the ensemble's growing discography is not about to sound a sour note. In light, however, of the formidable competition among Debussy and Ravel quartet couplings, it's a legitimate question to ask if another version was necessary. The answer is a qualified "yes."

William Zagorski put it best in a Fanfare 25:1 review of the Alban Berg Quartet's 1984 reissue in EMI's "Great Recordings of the Century" series. "A successful recording of the Debussy/Ravel string quartet coupling," Zagorski said, "has to realize and balance two opposing demands: the need to secure absolute linear clarity and articulation, and the need to provide requisite atmosphere. These two works are highly perfumed post-Romantic utterances that are, paradoxically, rigorously constructed in the best Classical sense." [Yes! I completely agree.]

Of course he was exactly right and not just in general, but also with regard to the Berg Quartet's performances, which remain among the finest in the catalog, though the recorded sound is not ideal. But therein lies the qualification referred to above. While a number of relatively recent recordings of these two works have achieved a high degree of technical polish, stylistic comprehension has been in somewhat shorter supply, a criticism I found myself surprised to be leveling against the Ysaÿe Quartet's Debussy in 30:5. I'd have thought that if any ensemble could pull it off, surely it would be the French Ysaÿe. Other recent entries that have likewise disappointed have been the Acies, Leipzig, Rubin, and St. Petersburg quartets.

Whatever the reason, it seems that the great interpreters of Debussy and Ravel are to be found on recordings made by ensembles of the past: the Capet (1927-28), the Calvet (1931), the Parrenin (1970), and the Galimir (1934 and 1982). Needless to say, in terms of sonic properties, only the later Galimir remake on Vanguard can compete with modern versions.

The duplicating of repertoire on closely overlapping new releases can sometimes doom one or the other. Fortunately, that is not the case here; yet the Dante Quartet's effort cannot be considered without reference to the near simultaneous release by the Ebène Quartet on Virgin Classics, a stupendous recording that made Jens F. Laurson's 2009 Want List, and won Gramophone's Best Chamber Recording and Record of the Year award. Although as of this writing it has not yet been reviewed in these pages, I acquired the disc on my own, and referring to it in passing in a review of the Acies Quartet, I remarked that the Ebène, for the first time in my experience, resolves Debussy's harmonic complexities in a way that makes the music sound as mellifluous as Mozart.

The Dante Quartet is ever so slightly more rough-edged (or perhaps "masculine" is the word) than the Ebène, and it is not helped by Hyperion's recording, which is just a bit too up close and congested in the full-ensemble forte passages. But where the Dante really excels, and possibly even surpasses the Ebène, is in its hyper-sensitive fine-tuning of dynamics. You will experience in the group's playing some of the most exquisite gradations between dynamic markings you've ever heard. It's as if no two pianos, mezzo-pianos , or mezzo fortes are alike. Each takes on its own nuance and special meaning within the phrase. I can almost see the players in rehearsal literally splitting hairs-i.e., discussing how many hairs of the bow should come into contact with the strings. More than once in the Ravel Quartet, I actually felt chills. Listen, for example, to the way the first violin's tone turns almost hollow sounding as the phrase tapers off at 1:14 in the first movement. This is just one example among hundreds that make this the most expressive reading I've ever heard. In a side-by-side comparison, the Ebène sounds more characteristically Gallic in its less emotive, aristocratic approach; yet theirs is an extremely refined, subtly perfumed, atmospheric performance. I'd be thrown into a state of mental paralysis if I had to choose one of these recordings over the other. Fortunately, I don't have to, because I have them both, and so should you."

It sounds like yet another Debussy/Ravel recording that I'm going to have to hear at some point.


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## Portamento

Wow, the discussion on this quartet has been through the roof! All I'll say is don't underestimate or be driven away from historical recordings because of sound quality. In my experience, the interpretations from Ravel's lifetime have held up pretty well.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Really enjoyed spending time with maybe the most purely ravishing SQ in the repertoire (IMO) this week. To wrap things up today I briefly hit up the ABQ recording that was my first exposure to the music to see if it remains one of my favorites. And it certainly still is with impeccable all-around playing - some might not like the slower tempo for the scherzo but I love it. (BTW Merl, I played the first few seconds of that Ad Libitum recording out of perverse curiosity and almost burst into laughter at the awful, whiny tone). Along with ABQ, my two prime recommendations would probably be Italiano and Juilliard '59 (which I was blown away by). Oh, and this gem of a historical performance from the Calvet Quartet I discovered on YouTube. If there are any chamber ensembles nowadays still playing with such dedication and creativity, I would pay much to see them in a heartbeat:


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ... Oh, and this gem of a historical performance from the Calvet Quartet I discovered on YouTube. If there are any chamber ensembles nowadays still playing with such dedication and creativity, I would pay much to see them in a heartbeat:


That's a wonderful performance, truly! I actually like the little hints of portamento here and there that you never hear modern quartets use in this piece. But their phrasing and balance are absolutely wonderful.

Since I think we're clearly winding down on our Ravel discussion, I'll soon post my selection for next week. Please give me a few minutes to work on my little write-up for it.


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## Merl

If you post any Beethoven I will defriend you. Knorf.


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## Knorf

Alrighty. Here's my selection for next week's string quartet listening, 24-30 May.

*Ruth Crawford: String Quartet 1931*

Ruth Crawford was undeniably one of the supreme talents of the American modern music scene in the first half of the 20th century. There's really quite a lot to say about her, but I think I'll save most of that for you all to find on your own. I will say that this article is a great place to start if don't know much about her and this quartet: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/arts/music/ruth-crawford-seeger-jack-quartet.html
(That link includes some YouTube videos, although sadly the recording with the JACK Quartet has been taken down. The other links are all very much worth listening to.)

Here's an analysis of the quartet, and I thought of writing up one of my own, but my suggestion is to give the piece a few listens before, and discover as much for yourselves as you can. I think that's a better way. The technical aspects of the piece are interesting, and Ruth Crawford was way ahead of her time in a number of ways, but those don't help you gather in the tremendous poetry of this music. It's quintessentially American, and very "between-the-wars."





References recordings of this work:
Arditti Quartet
The Schoenberg Ensemble
JACK Quartet
Pacifica Quartet

All are highly recommendable! Enjoy!


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## Portamento

Love this quartet. That third movement is incredibly beautiful!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Really enjoyed spending time with maybe the most purely ravishing SQ in the repertoire (IMO) this week. To wrap things up today I briefly hit up the ABQ recording that was my first exposure to the music to see if it remains one of my favorites. And it certainly still is with impeccable all-around playing - some might not like the slower tempo for the scherzo but I love it. (BTW Merl, I played the first few seconds of that Ad Libitum recording out of perverse curiosity and almost burst into laughter at the awful, whiny tone). Along with ABQ, my two prime recommendations would probably be Italiano and Juilliard '59 (which I was blown away by). Oh, and this gem of a historical performance from the Calvet Quartet I discovered on YouTube. If there are any chamber ensembles nowadays still playing with such dedication and creativity, I would pay much to see them in a heartbeat:


This recording was fantastic. I wish the SQ was better I would buy it up...


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## Allegro Con Brio

A very interesting and very wonderful choice! Not at all familiar with her music, so I was more than a little surprised to find out, via a casual scan of her Wiki article, that she was considered one of the foremost American modernist composers who had a big influence on Elliott Carter. Obviously a repudiation of the type of music she was “expected” to write (gender stereotypes, etc.) I am highly intrigued!


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## Simplicissimus

Knorf said:


> Alrighty. Here's my selection for next week's string quartet listening, 24-30 May.
> 
> *Ruth Crawford: String Quartet 1931*
> 
> Ruth Crawford was undeniably one of the supreme talents of the American modern music scene in the first half of the 20th century. There's really quite a lot to say about her, but I think I'll save most of that for you all to find on your own. I will say that this article is a great place to start if don't know much about her and this quartet: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/arts/music/ruth-crawford-seeger-jack-quartet.html
> (That link includes some YouTube videos, although sadly the recording with the JACK Quartet has been taken down. The other links are all very much worth listening to.)
> 
> Here's an analysis of the quartet, and I thought of writing up one of my own, but my suggestion is to give the piece a few listens before, and discover as much for yourselves as you can. I think that's a better way. The technical aspects of the piece are interesting, and Ruth Crawford was way ahead of her time in a number of ways, but those don't help you gather in the tremendous poetry of this music. It's quintessentially American, and very "between-the-wars."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> References recordings of this work:
> Arditti Quartet
> The Schoenberg Ensemble
> JACK Quartet
> Pacifica Quartet
> 
> All are highly recommendable! Enjoy!


Wow, I like this! Just gave a first, careful listen to this piece performed by members of the Schönberg Ensemble. That's the recording available on my streaming service, Amazon Music HD. I hear "Modernist" all over this piece. Some touches of Bartók. I find the rhythms in all the movements interesting and especially enjoyable. Fantastic communicative interactions among the instruments. Beautiful cello passage in the third movement. Those are my brief first impressions of this outstanding piece, which I am looking forward to appreciating several more times during the week.


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## Merl

New one on me but I'll give Ruthie C a spin in a bit. At least there's not hundreds of recordings to dig through of this one.


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## Shosty

Great choice Knorf. This quartet is the only Crawford composition I've ever listened to (something I have to fix), and I'd love to return to it. 

To finalize on the Ravel quartet, so far I've listened to recordings by Quartetto Italiano, Budapest SQ, Quatuor Ebene, Alban Berg Quartet and Orlando Quartet (which is shameful compared to most of you folks). I didn't dislike any, but my favorites are Ebene, Orlando, Italiano and Alban Berg more or less in that order. Regarding the quartet itself, I found that the more I listened to it the more I liked it, so that by the time I'd landed on the Orlando recording it had become one of my all time favorites, and I will carry on listening to it throughout the next week.


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## Eramire156

It is 4am here, and I'm finishing up Ravel, there are a couple of recordings I'd like to give a second listen, looking forward to the Seeger, I don't know it,I have old CRI disc with other works that I've not listen to in thirty years, its time to give it a spin.


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## Merl

Just given this a first listen via Spotify with the Pelligrini Quartet. Interesting piece indeed. I found the 1st movement a bit hard-going but from there I quickly warmed to it and really enjoyed the short 2nd movement in particular. I'll have some more listens later. As I said, slightly out of my comfort zone but I'm open to anything. Whilst I didn't get the Carter SQ this is more accessible for me.


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## sbmonty

Just listened to the Pellegrini Quartet. The Pacifica Quartet are up next. Thanks for another intriguing listening adventure!


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## Eramire156

Ravelled out, not quite, but I'm happy we're not doing Debussy this week. I'm going steal Merl methodology and divide recordings into three sets, there were a couple recording got multiple listens to confirm first impressions.

*Set One*
Orpheus (2)
Capet
Italiano 
Ebene (2)
Alban Berg Quartet

*Set Two*
Calvet
Belcea
Orford (2)
Stuyvesant

*Set Three*
Mari Iwamoto Quartet (live)
Loewenguth 
Hermes (2)
Juilliard 
Emerson

I did find the white tone of the Orford's first violinist took some getting used to otherwise I would have placed in the first set. The Hermes what bothered me was that they played faster when approaching a loud passage, and slowing down for softer moments, an almost mechanical use of rubato, that for me distorted the music.

A pity the Orpheus didn't make many more recordings before the death of their first violinist, I love their Beethoven quartet CD, I just ordered the Ravel this morning.

I'm looking forward to Seeger but not til tomorrow other music will get its chance today, perhaps the Ebene's Beethoven will get a listen.


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## Merl

Eramire156 said:


> ....I did find the white tone of the Orford's first violinist took some getting used to otherwise I would have placed in the first set.


That's what put me off. Its exactly the same tone as on the Beethoven cycle (which I have but never play anymore). I just cant get past it. Nothing wrong with the playing.


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## Knorf

Ah, I forgot about the Pellegrini Quartet recording of Ruth Crawford's Quartet. And I own it! That's what I get for writing off the top of my head. Anyway, it's another very good one.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> Ah, I forgot about the Pellegrini Quartet recording of Ruth Crawford's Quartet. And I own it! That's what I get for writing off the top of my head. Anyway, it's another very good one.


Ive played the Schoenberg and Pelligrini performances today of Ruthie C and I much prefer the Pelligrini's bawdier and less blended sound. It's a very dry recording but far more interesting than the Schoenberg Ensemble. I'm warming more to this SQ. I doubt it will ever be a favourite work but its much better than I expected. Ruthie C seemed like a fascinating woman after reading her back-story.


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## Enthusiast

I listened to the Arditti recording of the Crawford-Seeger quartet - a new work to me - and quite enjoyed it. I am often suspicious if I like a new work a lot on first hearing so it is encouraging that I haven't fallen in love with it yet! It is very short but doesn't have the density of a Webern piece. Let's see how it grows on me.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So I gave the Pacifica Quartet a go today. It really isn't my cup of tea. The more modern music is difficult for me to appreciate. I tend to go for more lyrical type lines. I'll give it another try or two in some different recordings.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I listened to the Arditti recording of the Crawford-Seeger quartet - a new work to me - and quite enjoyed it. I am often suspicious if I like a new work a lot on first hearing so it is encouraging that I haven't fallen in love with it yet! It is very short but doesn't have the density of a Webern piece. Let's see how it grows on me.


I think another point of comparison is Henry Cowell, rather than Webern.

The quartet came out at more or less the same time as the Ravel. Ravel is sometimes touted as a modernist, I think mainly because of the Mallarme songs. Which is the more forward looking and bold and imaginative piece of music, the Crawford Seeger quartet or Ravel's? I'm not sure -- Crawford Seeger seems to me a sort of death rattle of romanticism, like Busoni. Just tonality with the wrong notes. Very agreeable though, as you say.


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## Knorf

Maybe it's time to share my own thoughts about why I think Ruth Crawford's String Quartet is a masterpiece, and what I get out of it. I think enough of you have given it a go, for me to do so without being an undue influence. I hope some of you who aren't sure you like will give it more chances.

What has always struck me the most about RC's music is how _poetic_ it is. Even the way she constructs a melodic line is in many ways indebted to poetry, and poetic thinking in terms of rhythm and phrase. There's a good book by Joseph Straus about her music: https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Music_of_Ruth_Crawford_Seeger.html?id=Oz4iJ9vMXZIC
Warning: it is a bit on the technical side. But it goes into some excellent detail about how her musical thinking developed.

You may have noticed she has a number of pieces entitled "Diaphonic Suite." She conceived the idea of diaphony as an opposite of symphony: symphony, "sounding together"; diaphony, "sounding apart." There was a general interest in unexpected juxtapositions in early 20th c. American art. You see this in the music of Charles Ives, obviously, but also in the art of someone like Georgia O'Keefe or Alfred Stieglitz (not always, but often enough, examples in the links), and of course in poetry. And RC ran with the idea, and in this way was she a pretty clear influence of Elliott Carter.

Two poets come to mind when I think of RC's music: Hart Crane and Carl Sandburg. There are others as well. Of course RC made a lovely, powerful setting of three of Carl Sandburg's poems, for the intriguing combination of contralto, oboe, percussion, and piano: "Rat Riddles," "Prayers of Steel," and "In Tall Grass." Highly recommended listening!

So, I thought of several Carl Sandburg poems I might associate with how I think of each of the four movements of the quartet. This is just me, based on nothing other than my own imagination. But I hear poetry so clearly in all of RC's music, I just can't help myself.

*Movement 1.* A soaring, widely expressive melodic line, often in unison or octaves with a pair of instruments, juxtaposed against a rhythmic and chromatic antagonist. The antagonistic diaphony comes to dominate the texture, but the soaring melody returns, quietly persistent.

*Carl Stanburg: "A Father to His Son"*
A father sees his son nearing manhood.
What shall he tell that son?
"Life is hard; be steel; be a rock."
And this might stand him for the storms
and serve him for humdrum monotony
and guide him among sudden betrayals
and tighten him for slack moments.
"Life is a soft loam; be gentle; go easy."
And this too might serve him.
Brutes have been gentled where lashes failed.
The growth of a frail flower in a path up
has sometimes shattered and split a rock.
A tough will counts. So does desire.
So does a rich soft wanting.
Without rich wanting nothing arrives.
Tell him too much money has killed men
and left them dead years before burial:
the quest of lucre beyond a few easy needs
has twisted good enough men
sometimes into dry thwarted worms.
Tell him time as a stuff can be wasted.
Tell him to be a fool every so often
and to have no shame over having been a fool
yet learning something out of every folly
hoping to repeat none of the cheap follies
thus arriving at intimate understanding
of a world numbering many fools.
Tell him to be alone often and get at himself
and above all tell himself no lies about himself
whatever the white lies and protective fronts
he may use against other people.
Tell him solitude is creative if he is strong
and the final decisions are made in silent rooms.
Tell him to be different from other people
if it comes natural and easy being different.
Let him have lazy days seeking his deeper motives.
Let him seek deep for where he is born natural.
Then he may understand Shakespeare
and the Wright brothers, Pasteur, Pavlov,
Michael Faraday and free imaginations
Bringing changes into a world resenting change.
He will be lonely enough
to have time for the work
he knows as his own.

*Movement 2.* Starts with a kind of heterophony, two lines almost together but not quite. The texture divides more and more until we have full-fledged... not polyphony, exactly. Diaphony.

*Carl Standburg: "Arithmetic"*
Arithmetic is where numbers fly like pigeons in and out of your
head.
Arithmetic tells you how many you lose or win if you know how
many you had before you lost or won.
Arithmetic is seven eleven all good children go to heaven - or five
six bundle of sticks.
Arithmetic is numbers you squeeze from your head to your hand
to your pencil to your paper till you get the answer.
Arithmetic is where the answer is right and everything is nice and
you can look out of the window and see the blue sky - or the
answer is wrong and you have to start all over and try again
and see how it comes out this time.
If you take a number and double it and double it again and then
double it a few more times, the number gets bigger and bigger
and goes higher and higher and only arithmetic can tell you
what the number is when you decide to quit doubling.
Arithmetic is where you have to multiply - and you carry the
multiplication table in your head and hope you won't lose it.
If you have two animal crackers, one good and one bad, and you
eat one and a striped zebra with streaks all over him eats the
other, how many animal crackers will you have if somebody
offers you five six seven and you say No no no and you say
Nay nay nay and you say Nix nix nix?
If you ask your mother for one fried egg for breakfast and she
gives you two fried eggs and you eat both of them, who is
better in arithmetic, you or your mother?

*Movement 3.* The most famous movement of this quartet, one RC arranged for string orchestra, and it gets performed in that version decently often. This music reminds of Schoenberg's _Klangfarbenmelodie_ from something like his Five Pieces for Orchestra Op. 16, No. 3. Schoenberg entitled his movement "Summer Morning by a Lake." RC's reminds me more of clouds. There are two short poems that speak to me something about this movement.

*Carl Sandburg: "Fog"*
The fog comes
on little cat feet.

It sits looking
over harbor and city
on silent haunches
and then moves on.

*Carl Sandburg: Autumn Movement*
I cried over beautiful things knowing no beautiful thing lasts.

The field of cornflower yellow is a scarf at the neck of the copper 
sunburned woman, 
the mother of the year, the taker of seeds.

The northwest wind comes and the yellow is torn full of holes, 
new beautiful things 
come in the first spit of snow on the northwest wind, and the 
old things go, 
not one lasts.

*Movement 4.* Rhetorically an extraordinary movement, like an orator trying to connect with an indifferent crowd. Solo violin, the other three in unison or octaves. Again, I have two suggestions.

*Carl Sandburg: A Tall Man*
The mouth of this man is a gaunt strong mouth.
The head of this man is a gaunt strong head.

The jaws of this man are bone of the Rocky Mountains, the Appalachians.
The eyes of this man are chlorine of two sobbing oceans,
Foam, salt, green, wind, the changing unknown.
The neck of this man is pith of buffalo prairie, old longing and new beckoning of corn belt or cotton belt,
Either a proud Sequoia trunk of the wilderness
Or huddling lumber of a sawmill waiting to be a roof.

Brother mystery to man and mob mystery,
Brother cryptic to lifted cryptic hands,
He is night and abyss, he is white sky of sun, he is the head of the people.
The heart of him the red drops of the people,
The wish of him the steady gray-eagle crag-hunting flights of the people.

Humble dust of a wheel-worn road,
Slashed sod under the iron-shining plow,
These of service in him, these and many cities, many borders, many wrangles between Alaska and the Isthmus, between the Isthmus and the Horn, and east and west of Omaha, and east and west of Paris, Berlin, Petrograd.
The blood in his right wrist and the blood in his left wrist run with the right wrist wisdom of the many and the left wrist wisdom of the many.
It is the many he knows, the gaunt strong hunger of the many.

*Carl Sandburg: At a Window*
Give me hunger,
O you gods that sit and give
The world its orders.
Give me hunger, pain and want,
Shut me out with shame and failure
From your doors of gold and fame,
Give me your shabbiest, weariest hunger!

But leave me a little love,
A voice to speak to me in the day end,
A hand to touch me in the dark room
Breaking the long loneliness.
In the dusk of day-shapes
Blurring the sunset,
One little wandering, western star
Thrust out from the changing shores of shadow.
Let me go to the window,
Watch there the day-shapes of dusk
And wait and know the coming
Of a little love


----------



## Merl

_"Movement 4. Rhetorically an extraordinary movement, like an orator trying to connect with an indifferent crowd. Solo violin, the other three in unison or octaves. Again, I have two suggestions." 
_

Strangely, I was going to say before that the 4th movement reminds me of a conversation.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Wow Knorf, I love your integration with poetry! I’m a major poetry fan so that really strikes a chord with me. I’ll have to see if I can hear the music that way. On my initial sampling today I thought it was very thorny music that reminded me of a busy group of people talking, very similar to Carter. The concision and purposefulness of the music is very admirable though. Will definitely require some deeper listening for me to appreciate more.


----------



## Iota

Thanks, Knorf, like ACB, I loved the combination of poetry and music, and found it very enlightening indeed! And your analysis and choice of poem for each movement resonated very naturally with me. Loved the orator struggling with indifferent crowd analogy!

I've listened to it with the Pacifica and Pellegrini, and liked both very much. The very elegiac third movement is immediately appealing, but I like the other movements equally well, all seem rich in character and concise in expression. 

May have more to say when I've listened further, but so far an excellent discovery for me, thank you! :tiphat:


----------



## Shosty

Knorf said:


> Maybe it's time to share my own thoughts about why I think Ruth Crawford's String Quartet is a masterpiece, and what I get out of it. I think enough of you have given it a go, for me to do so without being an undue influence. I hope some of you who aren't sure you like will give it more chances.
> 
> What has always struck me the most about RC's music is how _poetic_ it is. Even the way she constructs a melodic line is in many ways indebted to poetry, and poetic thinking in terms of rhythm and phrase. There's a good book by Joseph Straus about her music: https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Music_of_Ruth_Crawford_Seeger.html?id=Oz4iJ9vMXZIC
> Warning: it is a bit on the technical side. But it goes into some excellent detail about how her musical thinking developed.
> 
> You may have noticed she has a number of pieces entitled "Diaphonic Suite." She conceived the idea of diaphony as an opposite of symphony: symphony, "sounding together"; diaphony, "sounding apart." There was a general interest in unexpected juxtapositions in early 20th c. American art. You see this in the music of Charles Ives, obviously, but also in the art of someone like Georgia O'Keefe or Alfred Stieglitz (not always, but often enough, examples in the links), and of course in poetry. And RC ran with the idea, and in this way was she a pretty clear influence of Elliott Carter.
> 
> Two poets come to mind when I think of RC's music: Hart Crane and Carl Sandburg. There are others as well. Of course RC made a lovely, powerful setting of three of Carl Sandburg's poems, for the intriguing combination of contralto, oboe, percussion, and piano: "Rat Riddles," "Prayers of Steel," and "In Tall Grass." Highly recommended listening!
> 
> So, I thought of several Carl Sandburg poems I might associate with how I think of each of the four movements of the quartet. This is just me, based on nothing other than my own imagination. But I hear poetry so clearly in all of RC's music, I just can't help myself.
> 
> *Movement 1.* A soaring, widely expressive melodic line, often in unison or octaves with a pair of instruments, juxtaposed against a rhythmic and chromatic antagonist. The antagonistic diaphony comes to dominate the texture, but the soaring melody returns, quietly persistent.
> 
> *Carl Stanburg: "A Father to His Son"*
> A father sees his son nearing manhood.
> What shall he tell that son?
> "Life is hard; be steel; be a rock."
> And this might stand him for the storms
> and serve him for humdrum monotony
> and guide him among sudden betrayals
> and tighten him for slack moments.
> "Life is a soft loam; be gentle; go easy."
> And this too might serve him.
> Brutes have been gentled where lashes failed.
> The growth of a frail flower in a path up
> has sometimes shattered and split a rock.
> A tough will counts. So does desire.
> So does a rich soft wanting.
> Without rich wanting nothing arrives.
> Tell him too much money has killed men
> and left them dead years before burial:
> the quest of lucre beyond a few easy needs
> has twisted good enough men
> sometimes into dry thwarted worms.
> Tell him time as a stuff can be wasted.
> Tell him to be a fool every so often
> and to have no shame over having been a fool
> yet learning something out of every folly
> hoping to repeat none of the cheap follies
> thus arriving at intimate understanding
> of a world numbering many fools.
> Tell him to be alone often and get at himself
> and above all tell himself no lies about himself
> whatever the white lies and protective fronts
> he may use against other people.
> Tell him solitude is creative if he is strong
> and the final decisions are made in silent rooms.
> Tell him to be different from other people
> if it comes natural and easy being different.
> Let him have lazy days seeking his deeper motives.
> Let him seek deep for where he is born natural.
> Then he may understand Shakespeare
> and the Wright brothers, Pasteur, Pavlov,
> Michael Faraday and free imaginations
> Bringing changes into a world resenting change.
> He will be lonely enough
> to have time for the work
> he knows as his own.
> 
> *Movement 2.* Starts with a kind of heterophony, two lines almost together but not quite. The texture divides more and more until we have full-fledged... not polyphony, exactly. Diaphony.
> 
> *Carl Standburg: "Arithmetic"*
> Arithmetic is where numbers fly like pigeons in and out of your
> head.
> Arithmetic tells you how many you lose or win if you know how
> many you had before you lost or won.
> Arithmetic is seven eleven all good children go to heaven - or five
> six bundle of sticks.
> Arithmetic is numbers you squeeze from your head to your hand
> to your pencil to your paper till you get the answer.
> Arithmetic is where the answer is right and everything is nice and
> you can look out of the window and see the blue sky - or the
> answer is wrong and you have to start all over and try again
> and see how it comes out this time.
> If you take a number and double it and double it again and then
> double it a few more times, the number gets bigger and bigger
> and goes higher and higher and only arithmetic can tell you
> what the number is when you decide to quit doubling.
> Arithmetic is where you have to multiply - and you carry the
> multiplication table in your head and hope you won't lose it.
> If you have two animal crackers, one good and one bad, and you
> eat one and a striped zebra with streaks all over him eats the
> other, how many animal crackers will you have if somebody
> offers you five six seven and you say No no no and you say
> Nay nay nay and you say Nix nix nix?
> If you ask your mother for one fried egg for breakfast and she
> gives you two fried eggs and you eat both of them, who is
> better in arithmetic, you or your mother?
> 
> *Movement 3.* The most famous movement of this quartet, one RC arranged for string orchestra, and it gets performed in that version decently often. This music reminds of Schoenberg's _Klangfarbenmelodie_ from something like his Five Pieces for Orchestra Op. 16, No. 3. Schoenberg entitled his movement "Summer Morning by a Lake." RC's reminds me more of clouds. There are two short poems that speak to me something about this movement.
> 
> *Carl Sandburg: "Fog"*
> The fog comes
> on little cat feet.
> 
> It sits looking
> over harbor and city
> on silent haunches
> and then moves on.
> 
> *Carl Sandburg: Autumn Movement*
> I cried over beautiful things knowing no beautiful thing lasts.
> 
> The field of cornflower yellow is a scarf at the neck of the copper
> sunburned woman,
> the mother of the year, the taker of seeds.
> 
> The northwest wind comes and the yellow is torn full of holes,
> new beautiful things
> come in the first spit of snow on the northwest wind, and the
> old things go,
> not one lasts.
> 
> *Movement 4.* Rhetorically an extraordinary movement, like an orator trying to connect with an indifferent crowd. Solo violin, the other three in unison or octaves. Again, I have two suggestions.
> 
> *Carl Sandburg: A Tall Man*
> The mouth of this man is a gaunt strong mouth.
> The head of this man is a gaunt strong head.
> 
> The jaws of this man are bone of the Rocky Mountains, the Appalachians.
> The eyes of this man are chlorine of two sobbing oceans,
> Foam, salt, green, wind, the changing unknown.
> The neck of this man is pith of buffalo prairie, old longing and new beckoning of corn belt or cotton belt,
> Either a proud Sequoia trunk of the wilderness
> Or huddling lumber of a sawmill waiting to be a roof.
> 
> Brother mystery to man and mob mystery,
> Brother cryptic to lifted cryptic hands,
> He is night and abyss, he is white sky of sun, he is the head of the people.
> The heart of him the red drops of the people,
> The wish of him the steady gray-eagle crag-hunting flights of the people.
> 
> Humble dust of a wheel-worn road,
> Slashed sod under the iron-shining plow,
> These of service in him, these and many cities, many borders, many wrangles between Alaska and the Isthmus, between the Isthmus and the Horn, and east and west of Omaha, and east and west of Paris, Berlin, Petrograd.
> The blood in his right wrist and the blood in his left wrist run with the right wrist wisdom of the many and the left wrist wisdom of the many.
> It is the many he knows, the gaunt strong hunger of the many.
> 
> *Carl Sandburg: At a Window*
> Give me hunger,
> O you gods that sit and give
> The world its orders.
> Give me hunger, pain and want,
> Shut me out with shame and failure
> From your doors of gold and fame,
> Give me your shabbiest, weariest hunger!
> 
> But leave me a little love,
> A voice to speak to me in the day end,
> A hand to touch me in the dark room
> Breaking the long loneliness.
> In the dusk of day-shapes
> Blurring the sunset,
> One little wandering, western star
> Thrust out from the changing shores of shadow.
> Let me go to the window,
> Watch there the day-shapes of dusk
> And wait and know the comingun
> Of a little love


Apart from your fascinating association of the poems with each movement, I just love the poems themselves. Fog reminds me of Eliot's The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock where he describes "the Yellow Fog" as a cat.
So far I've listened to Jupiter Quartet (twice), and watched The Playground Ensemble play the quartet on youtube. I really like it, and find it more accessible than the Carter quartet from a few weeks back (though I liked that one as well). I found only three recordings of the quartet on Idagio including the Pacifica and Pellegrini SQs, and will give all three a listen.


----------



## Eramire156

*From an old issue of Fanfare*

"The Quartet by Ruth Crawford Seeger is a classic: four short, marvelously contrasting, pretty-well-atonal movements from 1931, related somewhat to the Ruggles-Riegger-Becker world but really on its own. The more heterogeneous outer movements frame an imitative scherzo and a "sound-mass" slow movement, the latter looking forward to some of Penderecki. The last movement, in its highly structured phrasing and palindromic form, also foreshadows developments which took place many years later. All in all it's a wonderful work. Regrettable it is that its composer wrote very little after this Quartet."

*Paul Rapoport
Nov/Dec 1980​*
Listened to the Pellegrini this morning, will get back to it later.


----------



## Knorf

Aw, Rapaport spoils it! I was hoping someone here would notice that the last movement is a strict palindrome. Eh, no big deal. 

I'm glad the poetry speaks to some of you as well. Sandburg was a great poet! On a different day, I might select different poems for this music; it's all understood by the imagination, which by nature must have a labile aspect.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Cool piece, been listening to the Knussen compilation played by members of the Schoenberg Ensemble. The piece itself reminds me of Schoenberg a bit


----------



## Eramire156

Bwv 1080 said:


> Cool piece, been listening to the Knussen compilation played by members of the Schoenberg Ensemble. The piece itself reminds me of Schoenberg a bit


This is also the version I listened to this afternoon.


----------



## Josquin13

I listened to the The Playground Ensemble, whom I'd never heard of before: 



. It was my first time hearing anything by Ruth Crawford Seeger, before that she'd only been a name to me, so thanks for the introduction, Knorf. It is interesting music. (Any contemporary or modern composer that Oliver Knussen bothered to conduct always turns out to be interesting to me.) I agree with Allegro Con Brio that the opening two movements are "very thorny" and concise. That's how it felt to me, too. And yes, there are certain similarities to early Elliott Carter, and I agree with Mandryka, to Henry Cowell, as well.

But I don't understand why people find the 3rd movement "so beautiful". I found it slightly unsettling. I would liken the string sounds heard to a wasps nest (at least when played by The Playground Ensemble), and as the movement develops it seems like the listener (or protagonist) gets closer & closer to the nest, before getting stung, and then moving away.

Interestingly, I'm listening to another recording of the 3rd movement now, and they don't produce the same string effects. So apparently it's The Playground Ensemble that hears a wasps nest in this music (& particularly the violist). I think that's a very imaginative reading, and it seems to fit better with the thorny, gnarly opening movements, than otherwise. In which case, I'd liken the first three movements to walking through a thicket of overgrown brush, with thorny branches scraping at your face & body, only to come upon a wasps nest, & getting stung, before moving away elsewhere.





I don't know if this live Playground Ensemble performance is the same as the one I linked to above, but it's the one above that made me hear the sounds of wasps. 





The 4th movement struck me as slightly tacked on. It's as if Seeger was running out of ideas, or had become less inspired. I'm not surprised that she never wrote another string quartet. I also found the ending a little weak. The whole movement seemed a bit deflated after the imaginative first three movements. But that's just a first impression. Maybe I'll change my mind.

I've haven't thought about the connection to the poetry of Carl Sandburg yet, & maybe that will add to or alter my initial impression. We'll see.


----------



## Knorf

You might want to read a bit more about Ruth Crawford's life before you leap to conclusions about her "running out of ideas."


----------



## Josquin13

I will. I was merely writing my first impression of music that was brand new to me. Nothing is set in stone. I didn't mean to jump to any conclusions. But I did feel that the fourth movement was less inspired than the first three.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I really liked this quartet when I listened to it today. Once you learn to focus on the independent parts and how they relate to each other, appreciation of the music skyrockets (this also goes for all modern music in my experience). There is certainly a very compacted but no less affecting eloquence in this music that is not as spare as Webern but certainly not as challenging as Carter. I think all four movements are of equal quality and interest. I like the newest recording by the Pacifica better than the Pellegrini, as they seemed to bring out the lyrical qualities of the work more convincingly.


----------



## Knorf

Yes, the Pacifica recording is excellent, I agree. Although so is the Pelligrini, but different. I just wish the JACK Quartet live performance were still available online somewhere! It's superb, as I recall. 

But this is one of the those pieces which has no truly poor recordings. You don't set out to perform and record Ruth Crawford unless you really care, since the demand and potential status gain are relatively small. It's unlikely you'll find a recording that's past the reach of the performers' technique or understanding, and very unlikely you'll find one that's merely perfunctory.

The only recording, of those I recommended, that I really have a significant quibble with is the one by the Arditti String Quartet, because they make the 3rd movement sound a bit too metronomic and pulsed. But they're excellent in the other movements!


----------



## Merl

As a hark-back to last week's Ravel I just thought I'd point out this lovely recording, which I listened to before. The whole disc is a pleasure and the Ravel SQ is given a lovely, flowing performance from the Jupiter Quartet. Available on most streaming services. Sorry for the interruption. As you were....


----------



## 20centrfuge

I’ve listened about 5 times to Pellegrini and Schonberg Ensemble performances. A well crafted piece that hasn’t quite found a foothold in my heart. I may need to check out other examples of her work and then revisit this string quartet.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Weekly reminder - looks like next week's choice goes to *Simplicissimus*. And also, because he seems to only pop in here periodically, I'm giving *TurnaboutVox* an advance notice two weeks out Current schedule:

05/31-06/07: Simplicissimus
06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox
06/14-06/21: calvinpv
06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
06/28-07/05: Euler
07/05-07/12: Iota
07/12-07/19: DTut


----------



## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Weekly reminder - looks like next week's choice goes to *Simplicissimus*. And also, because he seems to only pop in here periodically, I'm giving *TurnaboutVox* an advance notice two weeks out Current schedule:
> 
> 05/31-06/07: Simplicissimus
> 06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox
> 06/14-06/21: calvinpv
> 06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
> 06/28-07/05: Euler
> 07/05-07/12: Iota
> 07/12-07/19: DTut


Thanks, ACB! I'll announce the choice on Saturday.


----------



## Shosty

By now I've listened to recordings by Jupiter Quartet, The Playground Ensemble, Pellegrini Quartet, Pacifica Quartet and members of the Schoenberg Ensemble, in that order. Didn't really dislike any, but I lean towards the last three I named, especially the Pacifica. About the quartet itself, I'd listened to it several years ago as part of a (then unsuccessful) attempt to get into "modernist" music, but I don't remember liking it particularly. So, it seems like time and more exposure to modernist compositions were what I needed to connect with this quartet. I might like the second half of the quartet slightly more than the first half.

This remains the only Ruth Crawford piece I've listened to, though, and I'd like to explore her music some more so I'd really appreciate any pointers as to what pieces I should start with.


----------



## Knorf

Recommended Ruth Crawford for further listening:

Sonata for Violin and Piano, 1926
Preludes for piano, especially Nos. 6-9, 1928
Piano Study in Mixed Accents, 1930
Three Songs to Poems by Carl Sandburg, for contralto, piano, oboe, percussion, 1932
_Rissolty, Rossolty_ for orchestra, 1941
Suite for Wind Quintet, 1952


----------



## Shosty

Knorf said:


> Recommended Ruth Crawford for further listening:
> 
> Sonata for Violin and Piano, 1926
> Preludes for piano, especially Nos. 6-9, 1928
> Piano Study in Mixed Accents, 1930
> Three Songs to Poems by Carl Sandburg, for contralto, piano, oboe, percussion, 1932
> _Rissolty, Rossolty_ for orchestra, 1941
> Suite for Wind Quintet, 1952


Thanks Knorf. I'll start exploring!:tiphat:


----------



## Knorf

A word about Ruth Crawford's name. She was born Ruth Porter Crawford. Almost all of her early to middle, most notable work, was published with her name as "Ruth Crawford."

After the completion of her String Quartet 1931 and spending time in Europe with a Guggenheim Fellowship, she returned to the U.S.A. and married Charles Seeger, her former composition teacher (in composition, she easily surpassed him in her fame and impact on the musical world.) She then changed her name, as per tradition, to Ruth Seeger. Together, she and her husband famously did a significant amount of culturally important musicological work in American folk music, but she composed very little beyond creating a number of charming arrangements of folk music for piano. She returned to serious composition in the 1950s, completing the Suite for Wind Quintet in 1952, one of her masterpieces. It was published with her name as "Ruth Seeger."

She actually wasn't ever named "Ruth Crawford Seeger" in her lifetime; this was done as a much more recent attempt to acknowledge her "maiden" name, which was also her professional name until she married. Similar issues apply to someone like Fanny Mendelssohn or Clara Schumann. Inconsistencies abound.

It doesn't matter to me how one writes those three names, "Ruth", "Crawford", or "Seeger." But I don't refer to her only as "Seeger," because he husband was a notable composer himself, albeit eclipsed by her ability, and of course there's her much more popularly well-known adopted son, Pete Seeger.

So one is left with with "Crawford," "Ruth Crawford," or "[Ruth] Crawford Seeger," even if the latter wasn't used by her in her lifetime.

I usually just write "Ruth Crawford" since it's correct until 1931, and because I'm lazy. Or I write "RC." But also I think the tradition of the wife taking her husband's name, and discarding her father's, should just go away, along with all of the unfortunate patriarchal associations that go with it (women as commodities for men.)

In case anyone was wondering.


----------



## Simplicissimus

*Paul Hindemith (1895-1963) - String Quartet No. 4, Op. 22*

Hindemith wrote this work in November and December of 1921. It premiered on November 4, 1922 at Donaueschingen in a performance by the newly-formed Amar Quartet of which Hindemith was the violist. He wrote of the work, "Es klingt fein und ist ganz einfach zu hören und zu spielen, worauf ich äußerst stolz bin… Ich konstatiere mit Befriedigung, dass meine Sachen besser und einfacher werden (wird auch Zeit)." ('It sounds nice and is quite easy to listen to and play, of which I am extremely proud… I perceive with satisfaction that my works are becoming better and simpler (it's about time).') The theme of simplicity is this work's most salient characteristic within the context of Hindemith's development as a composer at this time. The String Quartet No. 4 has over time become the most performed of Hindemith's seven string quartets.

Critical assessments of Hindemith the composer generally note his earliest phase as neo-Romantic, a second phase in which he explored _die neue Sachlichkeit_ ('New Objectivity'), and a mature third phase from about 1930 to his death in which he developed and worked within his distinctive, highly contrapuntal and chromatic composition system which he described in his treatise, _Unterweisung im Tonsatz_ ('The Craft of Musical Composition'). The clearest musical expression of this system is found in his solo piano work first performed in 1943, _Ludus Tonalis_. The String Quartet No. 4 falls within Hindemith's second phase, and shows an early application of the contrapuntal and tonal ideas that characterize his later work.

The quartet is in five movements that take the listener on a journey through calm and tender, energetic and wild, melancholy, virtuosic, and graceful parts of Hindemith's sound world. The third movement, marked by Hindemith to be played "Mit wenig Ausdruck" ('with little expression'), is a fine example of die neue Sachlichkeit and is considered by many Hindemith fans as one of his most beautiful expressions.

My reference CD recording is by the Amar Quartet from 2009 on Naxos. Here is a Youtube video with score performed by the Los Angeles Quartet. Happy listening!


----------



## Iota

Great choice, Simplicissimus! I recently listened through all the Hindemith Quartets in succession with the Amar, which are indeed excellent, and look forward to going back to No.4.

On the Ruth Crawford quartet - I think she fashions some very memorable phrases within the texture. The slow movement came across to me like a speculation on the vale of tears. Not sure if the whole thing has yet come together as greater than the sum of its parts for me, though this could easily change. Overall it's brevity and directness seem vey much part of its character, and added to its impact. 

Very glad of the introduction to this work/composer though and will be returning.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Another fine choice for this week! There are so many composers that I keep saying to myself that I want to get into, but keep ignoring. Hindemith is one of those; I reckon I have not heard a note of his music outside the Ludus Tonalis. Shall look forward to this one.


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## sbmonty

Nice choice. I've owned this set for awhile, but this is an opportunity to get to know them further.


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## Enthusiast

I need to write something to sum up my experience with the Ruth Crawford - perhaps tomorrow - but, meanwhile, just want to welcome Hindemith's 4th quartet. It's a fine work. I have this one, which is certainly pretty good:


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## Merl

I'm not familiar with Hindemith's SQs so this will be a new experience for me. Really looking forward to this. Nice choice Simply!


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## Knorf

Nice choice! I, too, have meant to do more with getting to know Hindemith's String Quartets. Looking forward!


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## calvinpv

What a nice quartet! I've heard all seven of Hindemith's quartets before, but at the time, the fourth did not make a lasting impression on me (his seventh is what I liked most). But I'm glad I have the opportunity to revisit this one, since I believe it's his most famous of the bunch. I just listened to Simplicissimus's recording above, and it reminded me a lot of Bartok's first two string quartets, so much so that I had to go back and re-listen to Bartok's second to compare. The violent stomping, the chromatic step-wise melodies and the ever-shifting beats that you hear in Bartok can be heard here in several places. 

I'll now join Sbmonty and listen to the Danish SQ recording, which I own.


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## Simplicissimus

calvinpv said:


> What a nice quartet! I've heard all seven of Hindemith's quartets before, but at the time, the fourth did not make a lasting impression on me (his seventh is what I liked most). But I'm glad I have the opportunity to revisit this one, since I believe it's his most famous of the bunch. I just listened to Simplicissimus's recording above, and it reminded me a lot of Bartok's first two string quartets, so much so that I had to go back and re-listen to Bartok's second to compare. The violent stomping, the chromatic step-wise melodies and the ever-shifting beats that you hear in Bartok can be heard here in several places.
> 
> I'll now join Sbmonty and listen to the Danish SQ recording, which I own.


I'll be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on the various recordings of this SQ, especially the Danish, which is supposed to be superb. Yes, I hear the Bartók here as well in just the ways you mentioned. I thought a lot about which of the seven SQs I should put forward this week. No. 3 (1920) was his breakthrough and I've always liked it; No. 6 (1943) is acclaimed as his fully mature statement in the form; and No. 7 is a short and sweet beauty with a beguiling simplicity. But after listening to all seven, I felt like I understood why No. 4 has been the most popular. I figured that all things considered, it would be the best bet.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I listened to the Amar last night and then again this morning. At first I didn't know what to think. It's very different from anything I've heard. I wish I had better words to describe what I'm hearing, but I don't, so let me say my first impression is that I like it. It's definitely well performed and well recorded by the Amar Quartet. The energy of the second movement is fantastic. The Rondo is very passionate and lively and I love the ending.

All of this is new to me. I'm glad of it too, as the more traditional ensemble music while it has the songlike melodies my brain seems to look for, many times I can wander off while listening. Like many more modern works this lacks the songlike melodies of the older forms, but I'm enjoying the melodic ideas presented. I'm trying to get my musical brain around the concept of not expecting so much forward movement to the inevitable V > I cadence but to appreciate the individual movements like looking at pictures of something beautiful. At any rate, this was a pleasant listen and I'm looking forward to repeated listening throughout the week.


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## Merl

I've listened to the Amar, Juilliard and the Pacifica up to now. I love the 2nd, 3rd and 5th movements the best, especially the 3rd movement. I liked all of them but the Juilliard and Amars were better, for me. The Amar, with their slower tempo absolutely nail the 3rd movement best but overall I slightly prefer the Juilliards in movements 2&5. I'll listen again soon. Really enjoying this one and I have a few more recordings to listen to.


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## TurnaboutVox

I'm sure it's not necessary for me to apologise again amongst such sympathetic company but, unavoidably, I have been unable to listen over the past 3 weeks for reasons I'll not trouble you with. I'm glad to be back and have already started catching up with the lovely Melos Quartet Ravel LP disc from 1979 (somewhere up-thread someone suggested 1997: perhaps that was a sort of numerical spoonerism?) I seem to have misplaced my Quartetto Italiano version and I rather think I also have a CD with that work. I'll go and look tomorrow. I'll try to audition the Ebene and Ysaye recordings too.

I know the Crawford-Seeger quartet but have never really focused on it. I have a .flac file of it somewhere so I'll try to dig that out too.



Knorf said:


> It's so funny that you guys are trying to guess which Beethoven set it was I had to get rid off because of the intonation problems! To keep this thread from getting further derailed by that, I'll just tell you: it was the Lindsay String Quartet. I couldn't live with it.


Nor could I!



Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Good points. I think it's time for me to reassess the Emersons I've listened to some of their Bartók, their Ravel, their Beethoven, their Brahms, and my honest impression was always that of extreme harshness and little sensitivity. *But you could definitely make the argument that the Italianos tend to play everything on the low-octane, "prettifying" side of things.* I guess I just tend to prefer that to the Emersons' more energetic approach. I think the Italiano approach works better in more streamlined, classical quartets like Mozart and Haydn; and the Emersons for more modern repertoire like Bartók and Shostakovich (hypothetical, haven't heard any of their Shosty recordings if they even have any) that requires more muscle and momentum. Now you've piqued my interest again, and I'll report back within the next couple days after I give the Emersons' Ravel a fair shot.


Have you heard their "Webern - Complete works for string quartet" disc? It's a revelation. I heard it after acquiring virtually all of their classical repertoire recordings and could scarcely believe it was the same ensemble.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Weekly reminder - looks like next week's choice goes to *Simplicissimus*. And also, because he seems to only pop in here periodically, I'm giving *TurnaboutVox* an advance notice two weeks out Current schedule:
> 
> 05/31-06/07: Simplicissimus
> 06/07-06/14: TurnaboutVox
> 06/14-06/21: calvinpv
> 06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
> 06/28-07/05: Euler
> 07/05-07/12: Iota
> 07/12-07/19: DTut


Sorry. Ordinarily I would be a regular on this thread, but circumstances have not been conducive to concentrated listening, or indeed any listening at all.

I am mindful that it's my pick on Sunday 7th June (you did your best to confuse me by using the US notation of 6/7/20!) and I am actively considering what to pick. Until about 15 minutes ago I was considering the Hindemith #4, Op. 32 but it's back to the drawing board now! You may get something English as a result.


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## Allegro Con Brio

TurnaboutVox said:


> I am mindful that it's my pick on Sunday 7th June (you did your best to confuse me by using the US notation of 6/7/20!) and I am actively considering what to pick. Until about 15 minutes ago I was considering the Hindemith #4, Op. 32 but it's back to the drawing board now! You may get something English as a result.


Sorry for any confusion! I totally forgot about the international date customs...why does the U.S always have to be so darned different? Anyway, I'll make sure to check out that Italiano Webern recording; I've been enjoying Webern a lot lately.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My first listen to the Hindemith quartet was wonderful. The musical language is undeniably modernist, but with a highly respectful eye towards traditional forms. Lots of great contrapuntal writing going on. The Zehetmair Quartet played beautifully. I gather that Hindemith was strongly critical of modernist movements that aimed to abolish tradition, and his style seems uniquely distinct. I’m planning on hearing Mathis der Maler, Kammermusik, and the other chamber works throughout the week to familiarize myself further with his work.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sorry for any confusion! I totally forgot about the international date customs...why does the U.S always have to be so darned different? Anyway, I'll make sure to check out that Italiano Webern recording; I've been enjoying Webern a lot lately.


It's the Emerson Quartet disc of Webern that he's talking about, and I agree it's one of the best recordings they've made. It's an extraordinary album!


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## 20centrfuge

I’ve always considered Hindemith among my personal favorites. I love that he wrote counterpoint and seemed to carry the baton from Bach into the 20th century. (I keep hoping someone will carry that baton in the 21st century). 

I was unfamiliar with this piece. I’ve listened to Pacifica and Danish quartets. The Danish quartet performance is a more sensitive reading. It’s a lovely, sinewy piece that has the trademark Hindemith sound and craftsmanship. I’ve quite enjoyed it. Thank you for submitting this piece.


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## TurnaboutVox

Knorf said:


> It's the Emerson Quartet disc of Webern that he's talking about, and I agree it's one of the best recordings they've made. It's an extraordinary album!


I do have the Emerson Webern disc and I agree that it's outstanding. But I was in fact referring to the 1970 Quartetto Italiano recording which was revelatory to me at the time I first heard it. My point being that that ensemble could sound fierce and spiky!


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## Knorf

TurnaboutVox said:


> I do have the Emerson Webern disc and I agree that it's outstanding. But I was in fact referring to the 1970 Quartetto Italiano recording which was revelatory to me at the time I first heard it. My point being that that ensemble could sound fierce and spiky!


I'm the confused one! Not the first time, alas.


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## sbmonty

I've listened a few times to Hindemith's fourth string quartet. I really enjoy it. All five movements are engaging. I'm going to listen to the Amar String Quartet this morning. Have been listening to the Danish String Quartet so far. 
I'm curious to hear the other quartets, indeed more of Hindemith in general.


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## Merl

After listening to the Hindemith SQ4 repeatedly over the past few days I can say I've enjoyed all performances of the piece by a variety of performers for different reasons. I enjoyed the abrasive, hard-edged playing of the Kocians, the vitality of the Juilliards and the lovely tone of the Pacificas. The Danish were excellent, the Brandis a little slow but well-realised and the Fine Arts very classy but one recording has really caught my ear (so much that I got the set). The Amar Quartet just absolutely stole the show for me. Their playing is superb, their choices spot on and the recording just sublime. Before I came to this SQ I'd never heard it but now I'm listening to all of Hindemith's quartets one after the other. These are great SQs. Thanks Simply for picking this one. It's now essential listening. As for the Amars....Great!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Listened to the Danish Quartet today. Also a very good recording.


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## Shosty

Hindemith is another composer I'd been ignorant of, mostly because I first listened to him when I'd just gotten into classical music and hadn't even explored big names yet, and decided I didn't like him, and that stuck with me until this Saturday, when I listened to The Juilliard SQ perform his quartet and was blown away. I instantly loved it. Every single movement sounds perfect to my ears. I listened to the Amar SQ recording today and liked it even more than the Juilliard. Currently listening to Zehetmair and liking it so far. I'll listen to all recordings available on Idagio and then proceed to listen to the Amar SQ recordings of his complete quartets. Thanks a lot Simplicissimus for choosing this wonderful quartet.


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## Eramire156

Listened to the Pacifica and Amar this morning. The Juilliard this afternoon, tomorrow the Danish to be followed by the Fine Arts.


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## Enthusiast

The 4th quartet tends not to exploit the new modernist “neoclassicism” that Hindemith was beginning to develop in the early 1920s and is more a “mature” (modernist?) example of his earlier romantic style. It is a fine work. I thought I only had one recording of it (the Zehetmair) but I found I also have it on an old Borodin Quartet CD. I knew it slightly before this week – that Zehetmair disc is one I play quite often – but it has been a real pleasure to listen to it in some sort of depth this week. In addition to the two accounts mentioned I have now also heard the Danish, Pacifica and Amar accounts. All are good and do the job well but I don't think any come close to the Zehetmair Quartet's recording. The Zehetmair find much more in the music ... a lot of light and shade along with some real excitement ... and I think the work emerges all the greater from them. 

There is so much magic music in this work. I seem always to enjoy Hindemith but find a lot of his music falls a little short of greatness through being a little dry and academic sounding. No such problem with this piece. The movements are relatively brief but that doesn’t stop the music sounding profound and serious.


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## TurnaboutVox

Hindemith String Quartet #4, Op. 22

I have listened to:

Prague City Quartet (LP: Supraphon, 1963)
Juilliard Quartet (CD: Wergo, 1997)
Amar Quartet (CD: Naxos, 2009)
Zehetmair Quartet (CD: ECM, 2007)
Danish Quartet (Spotify: Cpo, 1997)
Pacifica Quartet (Spotify: Cedille, 2006)
and for historical context - Amar-Hindemith Quartet (You Tube: Polydor, 1922)

The Prague City String Quartet recording is one I cherish. I took this out of my local, and very well curated, local authority record library as a teenager and fell in love with the raw but exciting performance of music which was new to me and at that time quite startlingly modernist - it must have been amongst my first few experiences of dissonant 20th century music. I am still a fan of this work which in the light of having now heard a good deal of 20th century chamber music, is astringent and satisfyingly accessible without really being that dissonant. 

Searching many decades later for a modern performance to match this (until 1997 there wasn't a contemporary recording available, I seem to remember) I acquired a disc of performances by the Juilliard Quartet - not at all bad, the (new, Swiss) Amar Quartet - the modern performance I like best - and the Zehetmair Quartet - I can't come to terms with this at all. It seems an incoherent and shapeless interpretation, too fast in some places and not emphatic or rhythmic enough at other - crucial - places (I know this disc has been well received by critics!)

The Danish Quartet's performance I enjoyed although it is a bit different to my favourite renditions. The Pacifica less so: I found it too slow and deliberate in some sections and as a result lacking a bit in rhythmic coherence.

Overall I still favour the 1963 Prague City Quartet over all of the others. The assertive Cello playing in this recording this gives their rendition real propulsiveness and urgency. In my view despite the slightly "raw" 1963 analogue sound, this is a great recording. For me the Amar Quartet is the best of the modern interpretations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will post next week's quartet on Saturday. At the moment I still have a shortlist of 6 and am still listening to the candidates.


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## Enthusiast

^ I'd urge you to try again with the Zehetmair. It is highly characterised ... but not shapeless. For me the work emerges as far more exhilarating (and, yes, profound) than it does with the others. By now - I have been listening to the work all week! - there are too many places where I find the other recordings a little tiresome.


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## TurnaboutVox

Well, musical opinions legitimately differ. I think I've given this disc multiple chances already. I dislike the Bartok coupling just as much. Perhaps I am just too imprinted on the (for me) seminal Prague City Quartet disc. 

Chacun à son goût, say I. :tiphat:


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## Enthusiast

Certainly tastes legitimately differ (and thank you for being open to exploring this a bit without feeling an attack (as some might have done!) ... but I did wonder about the possibility that you might have become slightly imprinted on an earlier much loved recording. But, now that you are saying you don't like the coupling, I am wondering if this is as a coupling or if you don't greatly like Bartok's quartets. That might also point to your not being sympathetic to the more radical approach that the Zehetmair collaborators aim for?


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## TurnaboutVox

Enthusiast said:


> Certainly tastes legitimately differ (and thank you for being open to exploring this a bit without feeling an attack (as some might have done!) ... but I did wonder about the possibility that you might have become slightly imprinted on an earlier much loved recording. But, now that you are saying you don't like the coupling, I am wondering if this is as a coupling or if you don't greatly like Bartok's quartets. That might also point to your not being sympathetic to the more radical approach that the Zehetmair collaborators aim for?


I like Bartok's string quartets like no-one else's except Beethoven's. It may be that I am "imprinted" on the 1979 Tokyo SQ's cycle as I haven't found a digital set to surpass or equal it. But I like the Takacs cycle a good deal whereas the Zehetmair Bartok #5 I do not care for. I have heard most (5/6) of Bartok's string quartets live at recital on multiple occasions and have enjoyed all of them, although the Keller quartet gave a warmly lyrical performance of #5 which was quite different to my cherished Tokyo Quartet LPs.

Musical taste is a quirky thing, though.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> The 4th quartet tends not to exploit the new modernist "neoclassicism" that Hindemith was beginning to develop in the early 1920s and is more a "mature" (modernist?) example of his earlier romantic style. It is a fine work. I thought I only had one recording of it (the Zehetmair) but I found I also have it on an old Borodin Quartet CD. I knew it slightly before this week - that Zehetmair disc is one I play quite often - but it has been a real pleasure to listen to it in some sort of depth this week. In addition to the two accounts mentioned I have now also heard the Danish, Pacifica and Amar accounts. All are good and do the job well but I don't think any come close to the Zehetmair Quartet's recording. The Zehetmair find much more in the music ... a lot of light and shade along with some real excitement ... and I think the work emerges all the greater from them.
> 
> There is so much magic music in this work. I seem always to enjoy Hindemith but find a lot of his music falls a little short of greatness through being a little dry and academic sounding. No such problem with this piece. The movements are relatively brief but that doesn't stop the music sounding profound and serious.


My impressions are very similar. Yesterday I listened to some more Hindemith (Symphonic Metamorphoses, Mathis der Maler symphony, and some of the miscellaneous chamber duo sonatas) and thought it was very austere and academic - well-composed, no doubt, but rather emotionally disengaged. But I don't really hear that in this quartet. That being said it's not a work that I'm totally gripped by - I do think it's a tad too long for what it has to say - but the outer movements are definitely the highlights for me and give me the most enjoyment.


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## Enthusiast

^ Maybe you will be a candidate for the Zehetmair!


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## Enthusiast

TurnaboutVox said:


> I like Bartok's string quartets like no-one else's except Beethoven's. It may be that I am "imprinted" on the 1979 Tokyo SQ's cycle as I haven't found a digital set to surpass or equal it. But I like the Tokacs cycle a good deal whereas the Zehetmair Bartok #5 I do not care for. I have heard most (5/6) of Bartok's string quartets live at recital on multiple occasions and have enjoyed all of them, although the Keller quartet gave a warmly lyrical performance of #5 which was quite different to my cherished Tokyo Quartet LPs.
> 
> Musical taste is a quirky thing, though.


Ah, OK. It is the Zehetmair that distress you. I find them exciting and inspired! I have many Bartok quartet sets and records (including one of the Tokyo sets - I can't remember which one and can't get to it to check right now). I was listening earlier to a couple of the quartets from the Tatrai cycle - who seem to make a lot of sense to me in Bartok. Do you know it?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Maybe you will be a candidate for the Zehetmair!


Well, that is the first one I heard this week and I enjoyed it much more than when I heard the Juilliard yesterday. So maybe there's something to that...I thought Zehetmair made it into a much more Romantic-type work comparatively. I don't know if that's a good thing


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## BlackAdderLXX

Well, a post in another thread from starthrower turned me on to the Calidore Quartet, and in my listening found out they also have recorded the Hindemith #4. So guess what I did...


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## Knorf

Apologies for being late in getting to listening to this week's quartet.

I'm an unabashed fan of the music of Paul Hindemith, but this was my first foray into his string quartets, for some reason. I've only listened to No. 4 thus far, but I also studied the score; what can I say, it's a wonderful piece! I knew I would like it, and I do, very much. While I enjoy his music from his entire career, I always have a soft spot for the music he wrote in the 1920s, which has this uninhibited imaginative quality, like he didn't quite understand what he was doing, but was driven to it anyway. Elements of craft and discipline are there-and this comment is in no way meant to cast shade on his later works. But there's something just so charming about his compositions from this time, so unburdened by theory.

I speculate without having done any research at all that Hindemith was knowledgeable about Anton Reicha's ideas about "modern" fugue writing. The first movement strikes me as influenced by Reicha, at a bit of a distance, sure, but definitely more of a Reichian concept of fugue than, say, Beethovenian.

The second and fourth movements have got to be close to the earliest use I know of of complex mixed meters _without_ using time signatures. I'm pretty sure there actually are earlier antecedents, in fact (such as Ives,) but Hindemith's execution of the idea, with various misplaced downbeats and inventive metrical games, is yet distinctively different than Stravinsky's and nonetheless really engaging and clever.

Is there a chaconne or passacaglia-like structure to the third movement? I feel like it hints at one, but perhaps it isn't strict. I'll need to go back and study this more. Beautiful movement. Who says Hindemith didn't write emotional music?

In the fourth movement, Hindemith uses a trick he employed similarly in the wonderful _Kleine Kammermusik_, Op. 24, No. 2-written very shortly after Quartet No. 4-where a short and energetic intermezzo leads straight ("folgt sofort") into the finale. In this quartet, it's all about the cello in this movement, in a breathtaking vistuosic solo, whereas in the _Kleine Kammermusik_ each of the five winds gets a little cadenza in and around a ritornello.

By the way, if anyone here doesn't know the _Kleine Kammermusik_, Op. 24, No. 2, you really should. It's one of Hindemith's undeniable masterpieces.

Great choice! I'm glad I've heard this. And now I need to shop for more CDs to add to my collection. It never ends...


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## TurnaboutVox

*György Kurtág (1926 - ) 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet, Op. 44 (1999 - 2005)*

I. Invocatio (un fragment)
II. Footfalls (...mintha valaki jonne...)
III. Capriccio
IV. In memoriam György Sebok
V. Rappel des oiseaux (etude pour les harmoniques)
VI. Les Adieux (in Janáček's manner)



> Kurtág composed his 6 Moments musicaux, Op 44 between 1999 and 2005 when he was in his mid-seventies. Dedicated to his son, they are, like their namesakes from Schubert, individual pieces in a set, each concerned with its own soundscape and programmatic suggestion. Invocatio (invocation), is a supplication to the gods, a calling of the muse before the recitation of an epic. The process is tense and fraught. Footfalls is tentative, suspenseful, sparse. The title may refer to the play by Samuel Beckett who has been an enduring influence on Kurtág's music, but it also comes from a poem by Hungarian poet Endre Ady about the sound of footsteps, the hopeful anticipation, yet, ultimately, no one comes, leaving only loneliness. The third piece, Capriccio, is, by comparison, quirky, erratic and capricious, full of what Kurtág called "cunning pitfalls." One detects the influence of Stravinsky here. The fourth piece is an elegy for Hungarian teacher and pianist György Sebök. Rappel des oiseaux (etude pour les harmoniques) is the memory or recall of birds expressed almost entirely in harmonics, a technique giving the stringed instruments uncanny, birdlike sounds. The influence of Messiaen is unmistakable. In the final piece, Les Adieux (in Janáček's manner), Kurtág specifically calls out the influence of Czech composer Leoš Janáček whose passion, rhythmic vitality and emphasis on the natural cadences of speech all seem to be in play in the music. The concluding fadeout vividly evokes departure and disappearance, the essence of "goodbyes."
> 
> Kai Christiansen, quoted in the "Earsense" website.


*My impressions:*

Each section of this string quartet is extremely brief and aphoristic, somewhat in the manner of Webern.

A tense, explosive 'Invocacio' gives way to the hesitant "faltering heartbeats" of 'Footfalls' where brief bursts of sound are separated by equally brief pauses. This is interrupted by a mournful central slow section, before the 'footfalls' start up again, this time more urgent and insistent. In the capriccio the cello strikes eerie ringing notes amidst fluttering accompaniments from the higher instruments. A lugubrious and heavy 'In memoriam...' based on the notes B-A-C-H (Bb) follows, but this in turn quickly gives way to the ...rappel des oiseaux...with a succession of high pitched, bird-like notes on the violin above the other instruments. A lush harmonically complex 'Les Adieux' sees the quartet playing in ensemble for the final section.

The whole is exquisite, and leaves this listener wanting much more. This is my favourite of Kurtag's works for string quartet.


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## Knorf

Oh, wow, Kurtág! Nice. Kurtág's string quartets are awesome. This should be an interesting conversation!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Nice, another opportunity to get to know a contemporary composer. I heard his “Grabstein for Stephan”, a small piece for guitar and orchestra, as part of the 1980-2000 Group and my interest was piqued, so this is a good excuse to dive deeper.


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## Merl

Totally new for me.....here goes!


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## Enthusiast

Nice choice! I have a thing for Kurtag.


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## Mandryka

Note that apart from the Molinari and Athena Quartet, the Keller Quartet have recorded this music here


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## Merl

It's not for me. I listened but i I found it to be a hodge-podge of disparate ideas . Aw well.


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## sbmonty

New to me as well. I'll give this one a try. Thanks!


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## Iota

Great stuff, Turnaboutvox! 

I was engaged by my first listening (Athena Quartet), but the last two movements really caught my ear. The lovely harmonics of no.5 that seem to wander to a captivating region of the consciousness, and the hints of a distant Last Post over a fading heartbeat at the end of No.6, I found rather affecting.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> It's not for me. I listened but i I found it to be a hodge-podge of disparate ideas . Aw well.


Like Schubert's Moments Musicaux?


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## TurnaboutVox

Merl said:


> It's not for me. I listened but i I found it to be a hodge-podge of disparate ideas . Aw well.


Merl, my intention is not to proselytise but a decade ago I'd have been with you in saying "this is not for me" or even "I am not sure this is even music, as opposed to organised noise". What changed things for me, once I had decided that it might be worthwhile trying to learn to listen to and appreciate such music, was listening to and watching a string quartet playing works live at a recital. I found it helped to both "see what was going on" as well as to hear it.

There is at least one decent recording of this work on a YouTube video (Dilijan Chamber Music Series) which might be helpful.

When a decent video is not available, I have found an alternative and opposite approach is to close my eyes and try to let the music simply unfold without having any concrete expectations of it - concentrate on rhythm , timbre and texture rather than melody and harmony because you're unlikely to hear anything you will recognise as conventional melody, at least at first.

It's also been my experience that once I know the work sufficiently well to remember chunks of it when I'm not actually listening to it, or even to find myself humming or whistling parts of it, it all kind of clicks into place (this first happened for me with Webern's Op. 5, 9 and 28 works for string quartet).

I think that Kurtag's idea was to present, like Schubert before him, a series of brief movements which "set each other into relief". So you are not wide of the mark in experiencing a "hodge-podge of disparate ideas"!



> The title brings to mind the many eponymous piano works by Schubert, who used the label to denote a group of relatively short character pieces for piano, that could be performed together and set each other into relief, but were not part of one structure as are the movements of a sonata, for example.
> 
> Misha Amory


I apologise in advance if this work is irrevocably "not for you" and my suggestions are unwelcome!


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## 20centrfuge

I found some extended program notes here: https://www.brentanoquartet.com/notes/kurtag-6-moments-musicaux/

In particular, at the moment, I'm finding that the notes for section 2 really enhance the listening experience.

_2. Footfalls. Samuel Beckett, a lifelong influence on Kurtág, wrote a play by the same name, which features a pacing female character whose footsteps were meant to be metronomic, audible, and central to the meaning of the play. Independently of this, Kurtág cites a poem by the celebrated Hungarian poet Endre Ady, with its own very different message:

No One Comes
Kipp-kopp, as if a woman were coming
On a dark stairway, trembling, running
My heart stops, I await something wonderful In the autumn dusk, confident.
Kipp-kopp, my heart starts up once again
I hear it once again, to my deep and great pleasure In a soft tempo, in a secret rhythm
As if someone were coming, were coming
￼Kipp-kopp, now a funeral twilight
A misty, hollow melody sounds
The autumn evening. Today no one come to me Today no one will come to me, no one._


----------



## Merl

TurnaboutVox said:


> Merl, my intention is not to proselytise but a decade ago I'd have been with you in saying "this is not for me" or even "I am not sure this is even music, as opposed to organised noise". What changed things for me, once I had decided that it might be worthwhile trying to learn to listen to and appreciate such music, was listening to and watching a string quartet playing works live at a recital. I found it helped to both "see what was going on" as well as to hear it.
> 
> There is at least one decent recording of this work on a YouTube video (Dilijan Chamber Music Series) which might be helpful.
> 
> When a decent video is not available, I have found an alternative and opposite approach is to close my eyes and try to let the music simply unfold without having any concrete expectations of it - concentrate on rhythm , timbre and texture rather than melody and harmony because you're unlikely to hear anything you will recognise as conventional melody, at least at first.
> 
> It's also been my experience that once I know the work sufficiently well to remember chunks of it when I'm not actually listening to it, or even to find myself humming or whistling parts of it, it all kind of clicks into place (this first happened for me with Webern's Op. 5, 9 and 28 works for string quartet).
> 
> I think that Kurtag's idea was to present, like Schubert before him, a series of brief movements which "set each other into relief". So you are not wide of the mark in experiencing a "hodge-podge of disparate ideas"!
> 
> I apologise in advance if this work is irrevocably "not for you" and my suggestions are unwelcome!


Not at all. Thank you for taking the time to write this. I much appreciate your explanations and honesty. I may well feel different in time, who knows? At the moment it's perhaps still a bridge too far for me. We all change so I'd never say never. :tiphat:


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## Simplicissimus

I like these. I found them on my streaming service performed by Quatuor Molinari and have been listening to them over and over. This music is getting close to sound art, but what holds it within the music orbit for me is the interaction among the quartet parts, which has a resemblance to other string quartets of a more traditional character. This tracks with what TurnaboutVox wrote about viewing the performance (which I plan to do). I'm surprised that I find dissonant music like this _charming_. The thing is, I feel Kurtág trying to communicate, connect, win me over in a good-natured way; not blast the dissonance in my face with a take-it-or-leave-it attitude. It's a really interesting experience.


----------



## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> This music is getting close to sound art


Can you say a bit more about what you're getting at there?


----------



## flamencosketches

OK, I really fell off with this thread and missed the Hindemith, can't even remember the one before that, and probably missed the one before that too. Sorry, folks, I just haven't been in a string quartets mood much at all. (Oddly enough I have been nuts about piano trios lately). But I want to get back on board with Kurtág. Kurtág is a composer about whom I've long suspected that if I allow myself to really dive into his works, he would quickly become a favorite, but for some reason I never did any of that. Going to check out the Molinari recording pictured above.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So I listened to the Athena Quartet this morning. It was definitely interesting. I'm willing to give anything a listen but I confess that the appeal a lot of your more nontraditional modern stuff is lost on me. This work fell pretty well outside of the type of classical music that I find myself enjoying, but I'd be willing to give it a listen again sometime in the future. Maybe at some point I'll start casually enjoying works like this.


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## Enthusiast

I have been with the Athena Quartet recording. The work is a delight. The characterisation of each short piece is so sharp. Of course, it is a brief work made up of contrasting very short pieces so there is no great profundity but its freshness is more than welcome in a day's listening.


----------



## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> there is no great profundity


I'd be interested to know if you feel the same way after you've heard the Keller Quartet play them/it.



Enthusiast said:


> so


Non sequitur.



Enthusiast said:


> , it is a brief work.


Longer than the Josquin Magnificat and Stabat Mater, or Bach's chaconne or any of his partitas and suites (or not much in it) Or Beethoven's . . . no, yuk, Beethoven . . . I don't want to think about _him_.



Enthusiast said:


> made up of contrasting very short pieces


Like a partita. Or a song cycle.


----------



## Mandryka

This one is very much worth hearing I think. Maybe a bit too arrogant sounding and agressive, but that may be just my preferences.


----------



## Simplicissimus

Mandryka said:


> Can you say a bit more about what you're getting at there?


I'll draw a little on Wikipedia here to supplement my own understanding of "sound art." What I mean is an artistic expression using sound which does not use traditional musical concepts of rhythm, tone, and harmony, but rather puts together created or natural sounds in order to induce esthetic qualia in listeners. The term "sound art" has been used in the United States interchangeably, or in close relation, with "sound poetry" and "sound sculpture." It is also sometimes understood to be a form of "experimental music."

These works by Kurtág seem to me to have broken free somewhat from traditional musical forms, although they still use rhythms, tonality, and harmonies that listeners can identify with "music," and of course the sounds are created on traditional musical instruments and, as I commented above, the interactions among the quartet parts are recognizable as belonging to the SQ form, at least the modern instantiation of the form. I didn't mean (though I perhaps seemed to mean) that the quartet dynamic is the _only_ aspect of the works that tethers them, for me, to music as (somewhat) distinct from sound art. There are rhythmic, tonal, and harmonic aspects which are musical as well. The timbres of the string instruments are also familiar. That said, I find that as a listener I am willing to let Kurtág take me places with the sounds that are akin to what I experience with poetry or sculpture, which is outside of the natural boundary that I experience listening to more traditional music.


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## Knorf

I can neither find nor conceive of a meaningful definition of "music" than doesn't include "sound art."

Music will always succeed at slipping out of any box you try to put it in.


----------



## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> That said, I find that as a listener I am willing to let Kurtág take me places with the sounds that are akin to what I experience with poetry or sculpture, which is outside of the natural boundary that I experience listening to more traditional music.


 Ahaaaaaah.

I mean this


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## Simplicissimus

Mandryka said:


> Ahaaaaaah.
> 
> I mean this
> 
> View attachment 137521


Sigh. I don't want to get too off topic, but I think I would enjoy a discussion of "sound art" and whether it is meaningful ever to distinguish such a thing from music (Knorf). The Kurtág pieces are music of a kind I fail to find a way to talk about, evidently lacking appropriate esthetic vocabulary not to mention expertise in contemporary music. What I can say is that the esthetic quora this music induces in me are not quite like those of more traditional music, but do resemble those I have experienced when listening to some electro-acoustic music and some experimental music based on sounds of nature and "found" sounds.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Simplicissimus said:


> Sigh. I don't want to get too off topic, but I think I would enjoy a discussion of "sound art" and whether it is meaningful ever to distinguish such a thing from music (Knorf). The Kurtág pieces are music of a kind I fail to find a way to talk about, evidently lacking appropriate esthetic vocabulary not to mention expertise in contemporary music. What I can say is that the esthetic quora this music induces in me are not quite like those of more traditional music, but do resemble those I have experienced when listening to some electro-acoustic music and some experimental music based on sounds of nature and "found" sounds.


I too would like to see such a discussion occur, for it is a topic that interests me greatly. Dare I start a thread on the main forum?


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I too would like to see such a discussion occur, for it is a topic that interests me greatly. Dare I start a thread on the main forum?


If you want to, I mean, why not?

I will probably not join such a discussion, however. I've been through more than I can count, and I'm tired of it. The topic was hotly debated 100 years ago, and as far as I am concerned it's as settled a question as Einsteinian physics. It's not a topic that interests me any longer.

This is mainly because such discussions inevitably encourage thoughtless or mean-spirited bashing of music people don't like, inevitably at some point including music dear to me. Since I am a composer, it probably will also generate bashing of music similar to what I write (although my own is actually pretty conservative), and that just takes any enthusiasm for the discussion right out of me.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Knorf said:


> If you want to, I mean, why not?
> 
> I will probably not join such a discussion, however. I've been through more than I can count, and I'm tired of it. The topic was hotly debated 100 years ago, and as far as I am concerned it's as settled a question as Einsteinian physics. It's not a topic that interests me any longer.
> 
> This is mainly because such discussions inevitably encourage thoughtless or mean-spirited bashing of music people don't like, inevitably at some point including music dear to me. Since I am a composer, it probably will also generate bashing of music similar to what I write (although my own is actually pretty conservative), and that just takes any enthusiasm for the discussion right out of me.


This is exactly what I fear. Ugh. I love reasonable, balanced discussion about the nature and purpose of classical music in our contemporary society but I don't participate in those types of threads mainly because it gets so contentious so quickly. It is something I would like to see _constructive_ discussion about, but, well, you know..._Internet._

Anyway - Kurtag. I started listening today and was interrupted by circumstances beyond my control, but really liked what I was hearing. Shall resume later.


----------



## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This is exactly what I fear. Ugh. I love reasonable, balanced discussion about the nature and purpose of classical music in our contemporary society but I don't participate in those types of threads mainly because it gets so contentious so quickly. It is something I would like to see _constructive_ discussion about, but, well, you know..._Internet._


Yes, Internet.

But I'm pretty sure here on TC the signal-to-noise ratio would be better than average.


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## 20centrfuge

I’ve been living with the Athena quartet recording of the Kurtag for the past few days. It’s a work That stands up to repeated listenings. It has layers of comprehension. Because of this, I feel like it would be good desert island music because it would hold up to lots of exposure.

1st section: is it just me or does he quote “Jingle Bells”?
2nd section: deliciously suspenseful
3rd section: the most easily like-able section - quirky, playful. Why aren’t composers like this more often? Often so serious!
4th section: the spiritual heart of the piece. For traditionalists - I would challenge you to live with this single movement and I think you would come to appreciate Kurtag as a composer 
5th section: from a sonic perspective I like the “bird song” idea and the overall floating, wispy feel
6th section: still working on this one!

Conclusion: my gut tells me this will become standard rep - a cornerstone of the rep from early 21st century. Bravo!


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## 20centrfuge

Knorf said:


> ...I will probably not join such a discussion, however. I've been through more than I can count, and I'm tired of it. The topic was hotly debated 100 years ago...


Exactly HOW OLD ARE YOU??!!!

Hahahahaha


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## Knorf

20centrfuge said:


> Exactly HOW OLD ARE YOU??!!!
> 
> Hahahahaha


Less than that! :lol:

It seems like that argument doesn't end, like many arguments that frankly ought to be considered settled.


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## Mandryka

Simplicissimus said:


> Sigh. I don't want to get too off topic, but I think I would enjoy a discussion of "sound art" and whether it is meaningful ever to distinguish such a thing from music (Knorf). The Kurtág pieces are music of a kind I fail to find a way to talk about, evidently lacking appropriate esthetic vocabulary not to mention expertise in contemporary music. What I can say is that the esthetic quora this music induces in me are not quite like those of more traditional music, but do resemble those I have experienced when listening to some electro-acoustic music and some experimental music based on sounds of nature and "found" sounds.


Maybe because it's intuitive music, I mean there isn't an audible form either to each part or the sequence of the parts. So you can't listen for patterns like you can with a sonata etc.


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## Mandryka

What do people make of the concision of the music? Is it a strength (because communicative?) or a weakness (because it’s so short it must have nothing interesting to say?)

Very concise music is a big aspect of contemporary music in the UK, Howard Skempton and Laurence Crane are two examples of composers who come to mind. But they’re drawing inspiration from Satie and sound very different from Kurtag (who’s drawing inspiration from who, if anyone? Sometimes I think Kurtag works in a vacuum.)

Elsewhere I’m not so sure.


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## TurnaboutVox

One source on the internet suggests that his biggest (musical) influences are Webern and Bartok, which I can certainly identify, but also J. S. Bach, Machaut, Beethoven, Berg and Messaien. They also cite Goethe, Dostoevsky and Samuel Beckett amongst non-musical authors. I think Beckett can be seen quite clearly as an influence in the Moments Musicaux.


----------



## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> I'd be interested to know if you feel the same way after you've heard the Keller Quartet play them/it.
> 
> Non sequitur.
> 
> Longer than the Josquin Magnificat and Stabat Mater, or Bach's chaconne or any of his partitas and suites (or not much in it) Or Beethoven's . . . no, yuk, Beethoven . . . I don't want to think about _him_.
> 
> Like a partita. Or a song cycle.


Ha. It's like getting a piece of poorly done course work back from your tutor.

You seem to think I am downplaying the value of the work by stating that I didn't find it "profound". I am aware of many of the works you compare it with - as I'm sure you are aware - but aside from a strong reaction to my somewhat lazy use of the word profound I am not sure what you are wanting to say. As I believe that you do not what I was wanting to say - you hint in a similar direction with an earlier post about Schubert's work of the same name - I would certainly welcome suggestions for a better word or phrase.

I did not find anything wrong with the Athena performance - it seemed delightful - but will try to hear the Keller Quartet recording that you recommend.


----------



## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> Ha. It's like getting a piece of poorly done course work back from your tutor.


I know! Raising standards you know.



Enthusiast said:


> I would certainly welcome suggestions for a better word or phrase.


long

Length


----------



## Knorf

TurnaboutVox said:


> One source on the internet suggests that his biggest (musical) influences are Webern and Bartok, which I can certainly identify, but also J. S. Bach, Machaut, Beethoven, Berg and Messaien. They also cite Goethe, Dostoevsky and Samuel Beckett amongst non-musical authors. I think Beckett can be seen quite clearly as an influence in the Moments Musicaux.


I definitely hear Ligeti as well, especially from something like Ligeti's _Ten Pieces for Wind Quintet_.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Finally heard the Kurtag straight through and I definitely like it. I like the concision and precision of it all - lots of incident in tiny packages with a good variety of moods. Sometimes charming, sometimes witty, sometimes dark. Good stuff, methinks. I would definitely listen to this again in the future and am excited to hear what else Kurtag has to offer.


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## flamencosketches

Really enjoying this work, Kurtág's 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet. I went as far as ordering the Molinari Quartet CD which is damn good. I have long been meaning to explore Kurtág's music in further depth and the choice of this work as our Weekly Quartet is just the incentive I needed. I find it a profound and rather fascinating piece. It seems to me that the composer has drawn inspiration from the late chamber music of Anton Webern, the middle string quartets of Béla Bartók and perhaps even Franz Schubert's own 6 Moments Musicaux. I find the aphoristic style of these pieces to be quite riveting. My favorite of them is probably No.2, Footfalls. Kurtág must be one of the most accessible of the non-tonal contemporary composers. There is something so simple and satisfying about his music, and yet it is still very sensual, and very concise. I am finding his style more and more fascinating the more I hear. 

To anyone who is curious where to go from here, I would highly recommend op.27 no.1, ...quasi una fantasia...

Hey, is this our first SQ from a living composer? I wasn't around for the last couple, so pardon me if I'm missing one.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Time for a little weekly update - next week's choice will go to *calvinpv*. Just looking at the list of quartets we've done so far, I'm blown away by how long we have been doing this already and how much excellent discussion we've generated. Once our cycle of nominators runs out, do we want to continue with this little group? (I do!) Do you reckon we should just repeat the same order as before?

Current schedule:

06/14-06/21: calvinpv
06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
06/28-07/05: Euler
07/05-07/12: Iota
07/12-07/19: DTut

And, for reference, an updated list of quartets featured so far (in American dates):

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24-05/31: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31-06/07: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07-06/14: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)


----------



## calvinpv

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Time for a little weekly update - next week's choice will go to *calvinpv*. Just looking at the list of quartets we've done so far, I'm blown away by how long we have been doing this already and how much excellent discussion we've generated. Once our cycle of nominators runs out, do we want to continue with this little group? (I do!) Do you reckon we should just repeat the same order as before?


Good to know I'm up. I'll write up a brief intro Saturday night for my choice; right now, I've got it narrowed down to four quartets, all mid/late 20th century.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> To anyone who is curious where to go from here, I would highly recommend op.27 no.1, ...quasi una fantasia...
> 
> .


Very good, deep, psychological, disturbing - and I hadn't heard it before, thanks.


----------



## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Just looking at the list of quartets we've done so far, I'm blown away by how long we have been doing this already and how much excellent discussion we've generated. Once our cycle of nominators runs out, do we want to continue with this little group? (I do!)


I agree, and yes, please.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Once our cycle of nominators runs out, do we want to continue with this little group? (I do!) Do you reckon we should just repeat the same order as before?


Yes & yes..................


----------



## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Once our cycle of nominators runs out, do we want to continue with this little group? (I do!) Do you reckon we should just repeat the same order as before?


The order doesn't matter to me too much but we should definitely continue - we have hardly started yet.


----------



## Enthusiast

Enthusiast said:


> I have been with the Athena Quartet recording. The work is a delight. The characterisation of each short piece is so sharp. Of course, it is a brief work made up of contrasting very short pieces so there is no great profundity but its freshness is more than welcome in a day's listening.





Mandryka said:


> I'd be interested to know if you feel the same way after you've heard the Keller Quartet play them/it.
> 
> Non sequitur.
> 
> Longer than the Josquin Magnificat and Stabat Mater, or Bach's chaconne or any of his partitas and suites (or not much in it) Or Beethoven's . . . no, yuk, Beethoven . . . I don't want to think about _him_.
> 
> Like a partita. Or a song cycle.


This has been on my mind (and in my ears) for a while and it is time to respond with a little substance. I suppose the objection was to my saying the work was not profound (a description that you may disagree with - although you haven't really said what you think of the work) and an implication that this is shown by the shortness of the six pieces.

The point that shortness may not mean lacking in substance is well taken. But I didn't say that I found the piece lacking in substance. I was more concerned to say for for me the work is a delightful mix of little sound pictures, beautifully and elegantly painted. But, of course, not all short pieces are like this. A lot of Kurtag is made up of short pieces and many of Kurtag's works seem to me to have an overall more serious intent than Moments. Consider his Kafka Fragments, Messages Of The Late Miss R.V. Troussova, Homage to Mihaly Andras and many other pieces. Words like "profound" and "deep" are difficult to use in this context (and probably better avoided). Perhaps all words are - which is perhaps why you rarely tell us your own impressions?

Thanks for the suggestion to listen to the Keller Quartet. It is a good one and quite different to the Athena. Does it go "deeper"? It is more expressionist, I think, and gives us a slightly different picture of the music.


----------



## Mandryka

One thing about _Moments Musicaux_, they are moments, not fragments. What I mean is, each part is a well made stand alone complete unit. I'm not sure the same is true of Kafka Fragments and Troussova, for example.

Incomplete fragments always look deep to modern people -- like those unfinished statues by Leonardo and Sappho poems and ancient shards. Their incompleteness gives them a sense of mystery. By contrast, whole completed ideas always seem a bit phoney to modernist sensibility -- we've become suspicious of the idea of the auteur having a special perception of reality which he's sharing in the work of art.

I've had enough of Kurtag for today. I'm going to listen to Nono -- _Fragmente Stille - an Diotima_. Fragments. Deep.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> which is perhaps why you rarely tell us your own impressions?


I find it quite hard just to see what's going on in a piece of music. By the time I've done that, I'm too knackered to do anything more.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I definitely liked the Molinari Quartet in this better than the live Keller which I had previously heard. Much more attuned to the various moods, more lyrical, more integrated. Mandryka, interesting thoughts on "fragments" vs. "moments." Interesting why Schubert, Rachmaninoff and Kurtag chose to title their pieces thus when "preludes" or "character pieces" or "sketches" would have worked just as well. What does "moment" signify; just a fleeting passage of abstract emotional tone sketches?


----------



## Iota

I've listened four of five times to the Molinari recording of the Kurtag now, and each time have found something substantially new to enjoy. The power of the aphoristic 'Moments' to suggest connections with some unseen wider reality, or untold backstories quite independent of the titles, was for me very strong.

And perhaps also because of the brevity, I find the musical gestures throughout stand out very vividly. When one doesn't have a lot to go on, one certainly scrutinises closely what one does.

_Moment V. Rappel des oiseaux_ continues to sonically dazzle me, the strings at times sounding like wind instruments or organ stops, quite magical.

Anyway thanks for the great choice, TurnaboutVox, very glad to have been introduced to this.


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## calvinpv

So I was thinking long and hard about how far into the deep end I wanted to wade when it comes to everybody's comfort zone. I was considering Saariaho's Nymphea, Scelsi's 3rd, and Radulescu's 5th as difficult, but approachable, alternatives, but decided "you know what, let's go all in", so this week's quartet is:

*Lachenmann: Gran Torso (1971-1972, revised 1978)*

Helmut Lachenmann is, I'd argue, one of the most groundbreaking composers of the last 50 years, and his first string quartet _Gran Torso_ from the early 70s is one of the first major works that exemplifies the style "musique concrète instrumentale". In a nutshell, "musique concrète instrumentale", a term adapted from Pierre Schaeffer's "musique concrète" tape music, concerns itself with the physical means of producing sounds as much as the sounds themselves. Lachenmann had become disillusioned in the 60s with the serialists and Cage's "end of history" approach to composing, in how they renounce the composer's responsibility in making decisions for a composition, in how they unilaterally declare that all traditional forms of music have been abolished without any historical evidence to back it up. Sure, Cage and the serialists were quite radical, but according to Lachenmann, we can go much further, and the only way to do this is to first come to terms with and be aware of our musical past so that we can know precisely where improvements need to be made (in the same way, for example, that in logic, in order to refute a bad argument, one has to first reconstruct that argument in its entirety before discovering its faulty assumptions and bad inferences).

So Lachenmann starts from the very basics and poses two fundamental, yet related, questions: 1. What are the components of a sound? 2. What are the means of producing them?

In answer to the first question, though Lachenmann didn't conduct any formal spectral analysis of musical sounds, he did notice that literally every pitched noise on an instrument has a shadowy doppelganger that is simultaneously essential to the pitched noise's existence and yet repressed from our awareness. For example, listen to any note played on a violin: our ears are trained to focus on the note itself and not on the wispy, scratchy sound of the bow lying just underneath the note. Lachenmann is asking us to un-train our ears and reprogram them in such a way as to focus on _all_ facets of a sound, not just the pretty, refined notes at the surface, and we can understand his music as an attempt to foreground all of those wispy, grating noises and place them on an equal playing field with pitched notes; giving these noises our undivided attention also has the added benefit that, over time, we will be able to develop and discover complex musical structures and relationships that are comparable to those found in traditional music - one of Lachenmann's students, Mark Andre, has tried to do precisely that and his music tends to sound more organized and formal than his teacher's. It should be stressed that foregrounding these noises doesn't mean that pitched notes completely disappear from the music; all it means is that they lose their privileged, rarefied status and have to be placed into their proper relationships with their more ugly, noisy brethren (there is an underlying political dimension to Lachenmann's music, but I won't get into that here).

As to the second question above, it should first be said that the mere fact Lachenmann is even raising it already places him in opposition to electronic music and some aspects of the spectralist movement, who, according to Lachenmann, only seem to care about blasting synthetic noises through loudspeakers without any concern or interest in the real-world sources of these noises. But to answer the question: though obviously, different instrumental techniques will produce different noises, one could categorize them based on superficial similarities, even if those similarities disappear on a granular level. For example, col legno battuto and Bartok pizzicatos yield different results on a string instrument, yet both of their dynamics consist of a sudden loud attack followed by a pretty rapid decay in volume. Basically, Lachenmann believes we can establish a complex network of relationships and hierarchies between techniques, which composers can use to derive formal musical structures for their works and performers can use to reevaluate their technical training as well as explore all the nooks and crannies of their instrument for hitherto unknown ways of producing sound. This last point goes back to Lachenmann's wish that we understand our musical past in order to transcend it: our instruments are the embodiment of centuries of musical convention, of the dos and don'ts of musical playing, and by developing an exhaustive profile of our instruments as they currently stand, we will be in a better position to know what hasn't been tried before.

If you're new to Lachenmann or musique concrète instrumentale in general, don't feel overwhelmed, this music isn't gonna bite you, so just settle into a comfy chair and relax. Personally, I highly recommend listening with headphones on a high volume - as if the quartet was playing right next to you -- because there are a lot of subtleties that the naked ear can't catch on its own. But it's up to you. As far as _how_ to listen, I would recommend two things. First, come to the realization that the pitched sounds we call "notes" in traditional music make up only a tiny fraction of the entire constellation of existing sounds and that they're all equally valid. This is more a mindset shift than anything. Second, try not to hear each sound in isolation but rather in continuous transformation and as part of a larger drama; hearing sounds in isolation tends to add silence where none exists, depriving the sounds of their multi-faceted natures.

This piece may not be beautiful in the traditional sense, but let this piece overwhelm you with its raw intellect, raw emotion, and raw physicality. Sometimes, it's good for a piece of music to violently shake you and give you a hard jolt.

Personally, I'm aware of four commercial recordings. Below is the Arditti Quartet, far and away the best, but the Stadler Quartet and Berner Quartet are pretty decent; the JACK Quartet recording I'm not familiar with but if their other recordings are anything to go by, it's probably excellent.

An article on Lachenmann's music by Tom Service in the Guardian here.

A dissertation I found on google analyzing the work can be found here.

Score here.


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## Mandryka

Ooooooooooooooooph


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## Mandryka

There is a live one from the Danel Quartet here


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## Merl

Another new one on me. Interesting.


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## Shosty

I listened to the Kurtag a few times last week and intend to continue doing so this week. I was a bit familiar with Kurtag and have liked what I've heard by him, 6 Moment Musicaux was no exception. I don't really have anything substantial to say about it, just that I liked it and enjoyed and learned from the comments here.

Lachenmann's totally new for me and I just listened to his quartet twice in a row now. Fascinating experience especially when put into the context Calvinpv provided. I listened to Quatuor Danel live recording on Idagio, which has some serious coughing going on around the ten minute mark where the music is quiet, to the point where I doubted whether it was part of the performance.  Also I totally agree that this music is best listened to using headphones.
Next I watched a pretty unknown quartet play the piece on youtube which was an interesting experience, though I have no idea whether it's a good performance. Either way here's the video:






Right now I'm listening to the Stadler Quartett recording. 
Regarding this thread I'd very much like it to continue.


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## sbmonty

Giving this recording a listen now. Interesting. Thanks for recommendation.


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## Mandryka

Cockroaches scratching, wasps buzzing, someone sawing a plank of wood, knocking nails into concrete, the air being slowly let out of a balloon, a train, a motorway pileup, pizzzzz, plink. 


What is this quartet about? There are no subtitles; there is no philosophical, reflective preface; everything is opaque. 

Lachenmann takes risks, and he asks the listener to take risks too, the risk of submitting, listening. All vestiges of the romantic tradition abandoned, music for the modern world, the brave new world after Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini and Franco had gone. This quartet is saying loud and proud: THIS IS NOT BRAHMS. Are you brave enough to listen? To have your eyes opened? Or are you trapped in your illusions? Hungry for consolation? Samsara. 

And then the end, after a dense passage the music because airy, and we have hammer blows, or is it elastic bands twanging, reminiscent of the chords at the end of the Liszt sonata. And that glorious quiet middle section, Nono-esque (but this is before the great Nono chamber music, a case of pupil influencing teacher) quietly intense, and mystical. 


In the right hands (Arditti), how transcendental it can be! This quartet, with its screeches of chalk across the blackboard and its rats scuttling in the darkness, transports the listener to the beyond, through the ether to the end of the rainbow - it is what art music should be. All is obscure, all is senseless, all is indecipherable. Yet it moves ineluctably forward, the flow is inevitable, logical despite the total absence of logic, structured despite the total absence of pattern. 

This is Lachenmann's greatest gift: the ability to make the senseless make sense, to make unrelated sounds flow. 

All this makes it music which evokes the highest states of Nirvana. More so than the famous trills of late Beeth. It is great.


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## flamencosketches

Yeees! Great choice, Calvin! This will be the one to separate the men from the boys. :lol: I have the JACK Quartet on Mode and will listen to it later.

Final thoughts on the Kurtág: it's awesome, and to my ears there is no deficit in profundity or substance whatsoever. On the contrary, each piece is like its own little world, just for a moment. A snapshot, but as Mandryka commented, not a fragment. The Molinari is the Kurtág set to have, I think. I'm glad I bought it for the purposes of this challenge.


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## MissKittysMom

I just found this thread a few days ago, and would be very happy to take a turn in the rotation. I see a number of my favorite quartet composers haven't made the list yet (Janacek, Shebalin, Myaskovsky, Boris Tchaikovsky, Villa-Lobos, and more). Looking forward to catching up on the quartets I haven't heard yet.


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## 20centrfuge

Lachenmann: Gran Torso

I thought I would dislike this quartet, but I’ve been pleasantly surprised by it. Calvinpv’s notes help immensely to help me know what I’m getting myself into and to tailor my expectations. It is of course, not traditional music, nevertheless it is a fascinating sonic exploration. In addition, Lachenmann manipulates the ENERGY throughout in such a way as to keep the listener engaged. A worthwhile listen!


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## Eramire156

"That really makes you want to hear it, right? Let me make you even a little more apprehensive if you haven't heard his work before. Lachenmann is most noted as a composer who has investigated the use of noise (i.e., untraditional, "unpitched" sounds) from traditional instruments, perhaps more rigorously than anyone else. Entire pieces consist of instruments being played-with extremely precise notation-without ever producing a "note" as one usually recognizes it. So a Lachenmann piece can be a succession of gasps, sighs, scrapes, sweeps, crackles, and clatters.
So just when you now will say, "Deliver me," let me add that this is deeply felt, intensely argued music. And music it is. If one cares to listen closely, one hears counterpoint, recurrent motives, large-scale formal developments, even movements of different tempos in what at first seems like a clangorous chaos. I'm not saying this is my favorite music, but I do respect its integrity. And unlike some "New Complexity" composers whose stance is either ironical/mannerist or simply exploring the limits of information theory, Lachenmann is earnest. There's a lot of the great Germanic musical tradition in his practice, no matter what place therein he will ultimately occupy."

"...this is demanding music, and not endearing. But I think one dismisses it at one's peril, especially in an era when all too many listeners are retreating into their respective familiar cocoons. We all need shaking up now and then."

*Robert Carl
Fanfare*

Listening to the JACK Quartet, I consider myself shook but will listen again.


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## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> And then the end, after a dense passage the music because airy, and we have hammer blows, or is it elastic bands twanging, reminiscent of the chords at the end of the Liszt sonata. *And that glorious quiet middle section, Nono-esque (but this is before the great Nono chamber music, a case of pupil influencing teacher) quietly intense, and mystical. *


That middle section really is glorious, isn't it? For a full four minutes (in the Arditti recording I posted, 9:15-13:25) you have nothing but the viola lightly bowing back and forth on a steady beat plus a few tremolos from the violins and cello to be played on their wooden bodies. That's it. Now imagine we put a bit more pressure on all of the bowing actions by the viola. We would get instead four minutes of a single repeated note. Do you know how boring that would sound, a four minute ostinato figure with no accompaniment? How is it that by taking away pressure on the bow, we _add_ excitement, not subtract it? Or conversely, by adding pressure, we lose excitement? Is it because hearing a pitched note blinds us to the storytelling and drama a single bowing action produces? I think in this four minute section, Lachenmann is laying on the line his entire set of aesthetic principles and giving us a masterclass demonstration of what his music is all about.


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## Iota

I've heard a few things by Lachenmann before and have never really been drawn in, but this I found far more interesting than anything I've yet heard of his. 

On a first hearing, I found myself really intrigued and involved as it progressed. The absolute newness of the language, without baggage of expectation etc, really enables the imagination to fly I find. 

In the quiet central section mentioned above for example, I just kind of forgot I was listening to a string quartet, and I was hearing a horse/cow exhaling nervously in a stable, and/or some kind of steam-pressing machine hissing away. This section goes on for some time, so it was quite a shock when the strings started twanging again, and I was reminded that I was listening to four people playing stringed instruments!

A myriad of other impressions too which I won't bore people with, but an ear-opening experience, which certainly seems to open up new expressive possibilities. Very glad to hear it, I'll be listening again, and I found your introduction very helpful, calvinpv!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Iota’s thoughts above really encapsulate mine as well. “Ear-opening” is precisely the word. This is not music as we might know it. But it is a sonic experience unlike any other.


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## Simplicissimus

I’ve been listening to the Berner Streichquartett performance on streaming, understanding the recommendations for headphones but as always unable to deal with headphones. Very interesting sonic and artistic experience with interesting premises. Thanks to @calvinpv for the background..

In the 1990s I was peripherally involved in experimental psychological research on how humans identify environmental sounds. The perceptual and cognitive processes are interesting, as are the learning, memory, and cultural aspects. Lachenmann in this piece engages some basic issues in auditory perception and cognition in a quite marvelous way, IMO. As a CM enthusiast familiar with the violin, viola, and cello in terms of their musical and general acoustic properties, I found the sounds these instruments make in this piece really interesting. I found myself mulling two questions: How would someone unfamiliar with the instruments apprehended this music, and how would this music sound if it were performed on objects other than stringed instruments?

For me personally, this is great stuff. I feel very in tune with Lachenmann and what he’s doing. To be honest, I have a lot more time for this than I do for more apparently musical works by Carter, Schnittke, Lutosławski, and company with their strange (to me) theories and approaches. Lachenmann is exploring basic questions about the esthetics of sounds, not fiddling around on the periphery of music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Simplicissimus said:


> For me personally, this is great stuff. I feel very in tune with Lachenmann and what he's doing. To be honest, I have a lot more time for this than I do for more apparently musical works by Carter, Schnittke, Lutosławski, and company with their strange (to me) theories and approaches. Lachenmann is exploring basic questions about the esthetics of sounds, not fiddling around on the periphery of music.


Interesting thought. For me my opinions are reversed - I prefer to hear what composers can do within the boundaries of "music as we know it." Carter and Lutosławski write actual musical pitches and stretch the orderly arrangement of sound to its limits, while Lachenmann is clearly interested in how we perceive sound, _per se_: finding a conception of "music" in things that we would not normally consider to be so. It's certainly mind and ear-opening - yet I feel it doesn't just stretch boundaries, it purposefully doesn't even try to stay within boundaries. This is postmodernism at its most unforgiving - the concept and the work are one and the same; the worth seems to lie solely in how different it is. Fascinating to hear, but I would appreciate any tips on how to experience a genuine aesthetic enjoyment for this kind of thing (which I do often obtain from more "hardcore" modernists like Carter, Boulez, and Ligeti) rather than a cerebral understanding of the composer's concept. Granted this is just my take, but I promise I'm not being purposefully negative - I just want to know how one might go about deriving appreciation from this.


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## calvinpv

Simplicissimus said:


> I found myself mulling two questions: How would someone unfamiliar with the instruments apprehended this music, and how would this music sound if it were performed on objects other than stringed instruments?


For your second question, I wonder if we first need to ask why, even on the _same_ stringed instruments, one performance can sound radically different than another. The Arditti, Berner and Stadler recordings all sound extremely different from one another, so much so that you wonder if they're even playing the same piece (it took me a couple of listens to realize that they were). The score is pretty precisely notated, so you would have to look for other reasons for the differences. Is it due to specific performers being naturally inclined put more or less pressure on the bow than average? Is it due to some violin bows having better horsehair or some cellos having a better wooden frame allowing for better vibration? Is it due to the distance of the microphones from the instruments, leading to different amounts of information getting captured, all other things being equal? I think Lachenmann's music (not just this quartet) opened up a huge Pandora's Box on the very nature of an "instrument". We might be able to say a violin is different from tam-tams, or even that a violin is similar but ultimately different from a viola. But can we really say one brand of violin is the same instrument as another brand, if they, for example, use different horse hair? Or if they are the same brand but are played by different performers? If it is true that one violin is a different instrument from another violin, then we may see in the future pieces that are written for particular violins or particular pianos with particular performers. There is some precedent for this. Nono's _Prometeo_ and Neuwirth's _Le encantadas o le avventure nel mare delle_ are written with the acoustics of the Venetian church San Lorenzo in mind, and Scelsi's _Canti del Capricorno_, though any vocalist can sing them, were written with a specific singer in mind who had an unusual ability to create these weird guttural noises.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I would appreciate any tips on how to experience a genuine aesthetic enjoyment for this kind of thing .


What do you mean? What are you looking for?



Allegro Con Brio said:


> the concept and the work are one and the same; the worth seems to lie solely in how different it is.


At the time it was written the music would have felt very strange, and I expect that was part of Lachenmann's intentions. Post WW2, composers, especially German composers, were keen to find ways of disassociating their art from Brahms and Wagner and Beethoven and Bach and Haydn and Mozart, the old German tradition had started to stink of the 3rd Reich a bit. The odd thing is that the sonority of the music has lost its shock value. Since _Gran Torso _there have been loads of quartets which use extreme instrumental techniques like Lachenmann. Think Holliger, Sciarrino, Beat Furrer . . .

But there's so much more going on here that you're just ignoring: this is composed music, as composed as a string quartet by Mozart. The sounds are more or less well specified and ordered in time. The performer is on rails.

There's a fanfare review in a post above which says



> There's a lot of the great Germanic musical tradition in his practice, no matter what place therein he will ultimately occupy.


It may be worth exploring that. I've already made a suggestion about the works tripartite structure, you may want to think about the contrast between its beginning, middle and end. It may even be possible to find a narrative for the quartet, or to find echoes of other compositions.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> I prefer to hear what composers can do within the boundaries . . . actual musical pitches .


Yes _boundary _is the right word, I think an arbitrary one. Let's smash it down!


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## Enthusiast

I'm in the group of those who get grabbed by this music. It's very impressive and leaves me slightly exhausted but also ... uplifted? Or perhaps cleansed. There are some stimulating posts above - concerning how different performances sound very different and how similar it is to other Lachenmann pieces (I find it fairly typical) - that I will aim to answer for myself in the next few days.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> What do you mean? What are you looking for?


Well, I'm not denying that there is great thought and talent put into this composition, which there undoubtedly is, but I'm struggling on how to hear it as _music_ and not as an intriguing experiment in acoustically generated sound effects. After a while the piece starts to become like "white noise" for me - I don't want to have my accepted definition of what constitutes music to be challenged, I want to see what can be done within accepted definitions. As Schoenberg said "there's still a lot of great music to be written in C major" - one need not be as radical as Lachenmann in order to be innovative and interesting. This is like "innovation on steroids." Of course that probably makes me a stodgy traditionalist, but as always a matter of taste.

That being said the one thing that impresses me most here is how Lachenmann makes the four instruments sound so multilayered and does literally everything he can with them to bring out every sound they can make - _without_ the aid of electronics, whose use in classical music I really don't like.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I'm not denying that there is great thought and talent put into this composition, which there undoubtedly is, but I'm struggling on how to hear it as _music_


Listen to the way it moves forward for a while and then stops briefly, to give the listener a sense that time has passed; listen to how there are periods of stillness and periods of motion; listen to the relief due to changing textures and dynamics. This is alive, it breathes.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I'm not denying that there is great thought and talent put into this composition, which there undoubtedly is, but I'm struggling on how to hear it as _music_ and not as an intriguing experiment in acoustically generated sound effects. After a while the piece starts to become like "white noise" for me - I don't want to have my accepted definition of what constitutes music to be challenged, I want to see what can be done within accepted definitions. As Schoenberg said "there's still a lot of great music to be written in C major" - one need not be as radical as Lachenmann in order to be innovative and interesting. This is like "innovation on steroids." Of course that probably makes me a stodgy traditionalist, but as always a matter of taste.
> 
> That being said the one thing that impresses me most here is how Lachenmann makes the four instruments sound so multilayered and does literally everything he can with them to bring out every sound they can make - _without_ the aid of electronics, whose use in classical music I really don't like.


I'm not even struggling to hear it as music; I don't and can't hear it in the same way that I hear traditional classical music. I could barely hear Kurtág's Six Moments as music. So instead of struggling with it, I approach it as an intriguing experiment and appreciate the way it holds my interest. The reason I like it is not that it stimulates some ancient part of my brain in which music and dance are processed, as occurs with traditional music. It's that it makes me think about the esthetics of sounds, the non-pitch aspects of string instruments' sounds, and the limits of music. As for feeling (distinct from thinking), there are artistic aspects that move me, like what @Mandryka mentions: the interesting sense of motion or stillness, the textures, and the non-quite-random interplay among the instruments. There is some overlap here with pleasurable perceptions and associations I have when listening to traditional music, so I cannot say that there is no similarity for me between Lachenmann's piece and other music. It's distant, however. I think of myself as less of a stodgy traditionalist than as a human being with brain mechanisms which respond to music (and in a related way, to dance) in certain ways in common with most other humans. I believe that music like Lachenman's Gran Torso does not engage those mechanisms very much (for me), though it does engage other perceptual and cognitive processes like identification of environmental sounds, sense of time, sense of space, and sense of order and interaction among objects and people which can constitute esthetic qualia.


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## Mandryka

When I first started to listen to medieval music I remember feeling very strongly that it was engaging me in a very different way from, for example, listening to Mozart, as if appreciating the two required different skills. Now I don't feel that at all. I think what happens is that the more you experience different styles of music, the more abstracted and general your grasp of listening skills becomes -- you learn to enjoy texture, interaction of voices, harmonies, relief etc in a very general way. And memorable melody, a basic pulse, determinate pitches, a sense of home key - the four things which are so central to 19th century music and late baroque music -- become much less important.


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## Malx

Before I put forward any comments here is a post I made on the 'Current Listening' thread yesterday.

'_I have recently been hanging around the edges of the 'Weekly Quartet' thread listening and reading with interest - but also becoming acutely aware that I lack the technical musical knowledge and vocabulary to add little to the discussion. This reached a high spot over the last couple of weeks when works by Kurtag and Lachenmann were/are under consideration.
I thoroughly enjoyed the Kurtag, but I had previous experience of some of his pieces - this weeks Quartet is Helmut Lachenmann's Quartet 'Gran Torso', this is a composer that is new to me and a composing style which is also at this point unfamiliar to me.

This morning I have listened to the work twice and later I will listen to it through headphones - at this point I am still unsure of my reaction_.'

I have now listened to the piece four times including twice on headphones which I believe help enormously to hear the lines and individual instrumental sounds in this piece.
May I also say that I haven't read any other comments on the thread referring to this piece as I like to approach new pieces with an open mind.

What do I think - well on first listen I was confused and struggled to hear anything that I could discern as 'music' as understood in my normal listening experience. But with further exposure, especially using headphones, I started to hear little patterns and sound clusters that repeated and 'developed'. Getting my head round this new musical language - if thats what it is - was and is difficult and truth be told I am still probably missing a lot of the technicalities of form that the composer is using, but I do feel there is some kind of form creating structure to the piece. 
Would I be wide of the mark by suggesting the piece is possibly in three sections with the longest central section from about 6.30 through to around 18.00 - this section to me was easily the most accessible and the patterns more readily discernible The use of all parts of the instruments to make the sounds is interesting & disconcerting at the same time.
Conclusion - I am extremely glad to have made the effort to carefully listen to a piece I wouldn't have otherwise gone near, object of the thread obviously, I find it challenging but not too daunting but I fear it is not a piece I would rush to too often in the future - but you never know, I once said that about Ligeti as well.


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## Mandryka

Malx, I’d really like to know why you don’t think you’ll go back to it, rush back to it often? What is it you’re not getting from Gran Torso which you do get from the pieces you go back to?


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> Malx, I'd really like to know why you don't think you'll go back to it, rush back to it often? What is it you're not getting from Gran Torso which you do get from the pieces you go back to?


Nothing too complicated - I guess there is so much more music out there to listen to that appeals more at this point in time.


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## Enthusiast

It may be different with others but, for me, when I have been getting to know a type of music that is totally new to me (especially music from a completely different era) the desire to return to it comes when I have learned what it does for me. Then I recognise the mood to hear it when the mood strikes me. Often with music like this Lachenmann the mood comes after hearing a quantity of Romantic music. Come to think of it I think I'll listen to some now - I have a feeling to listen to Allegro Sostenuto (which may be Lachenmann's most popular piece).


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## Allegro Con Brio

Malx said:


> Before I put forward any comments here is a post I made on the 'Current Listening' thread yesterday.
> 
> '_I have recently been hanging around the edges of the 'Weekly Quartet' thread listening and reading with interest - but also becoming acutely aware that I lack the technical musical knowledge and vocabulary to add little to the discussion. This reached a high spot over the last couple of weeks when works by Kurtag and Lachenmann were/are under consideration.
> I thoroughly enjoyed the Kurtag, but I had previous experience of some of his pieces - this weeks Quartet is Helmut Lachenmann's Quartet 'Gran Torso', this is a composer that is new to me and a composing style which is also at this point unfamiliar to me.
> 
> This morning I have listened to the work twice and later I will listen to it through headphones - at this point I am still unsure of my reaction_.'
> 
> I have now listened to the piece four times including twice on headphones which I believe help enormously to hear the lines and individual instrumental sounds in this piece.
> May I also say that I haven't read any other comments on the thread referring to this piece as I like to approach new pieces with an open mind.
> 
> What do I think - well on first listen I was confused and struggled to hear anything that I could discern as 'music' as understood in my normal listening experience. But with further exposure, especially using headphones, I started to hear little patterns and sound clusters that repeated and 'developed'. Getting my head round this new musical language - if thats what it is - was and is difficult and truth be told I am still probably missing a lot of the technicalities of form that the composer is using, but I do feel there is some kind of form creating structure to the piece.
> Would I be wide of the mark by suggesting the piece is possibly in three sections with the longest central section from about 6.30 through to around 18.00 - this section to me was easily the most accessible and the patterns more readily discernible The use of all parts of the instruments to make the sounds is interesting & disconcerting at the same time.
> Conclusion - I am extremely glad to have made the effort to carefully listen to a piece I wouldn't have otherwise gone near, object of the thread obviously, I find it challenging but not too daunting but I fear it is not a piece I would rush to too often in the future - but you never know, I once said that about Ligeti as well.


Excellent thoughts, Malx Would you like your name to be added to the list of future nominators?


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## calvinpv

Malx said:


> Would I be wide of the mark by suggesting the piece is possibly in three sections with the longest central section from about 6.30 through to around 18.00 - this section to me was easily the most accessible and the patterns more readily discernible The use of all parts of the instruments to make the sounds is interesting & disconcerting at the same time.


Without knowing the ins and outs of the piece, I can personally pick out five sections with the naked ear: in addition to the three you mention, the first 1:30 or so forms a sort of introduction where Lachenmann lays out all the techniques he's gonna use in the piece, and the final minute or so forms a coda where all four musicians strike their instruments simultaneously. This coda (if it's to be called that) features only pitched notes in the score, though they are obscured by the hard pizzicatos; there must be some significance to that.

However, there may be more. The dissertation I linked to in my introductory post picked out 7 or 8 sections (I don't remember which), with a couple of later sections being variations of some earlier ones.


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Excellent thoughts, Malx Would you like your name to be added to the list of future nominators?


If there is space in your rotation to add another - why not.


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## Malx

calvinpv said:


> Without knowing the ins and outs of the piece, I can personally pick out five sections with the naked ear: in addition to the three you mention, the first 1:30 or so forms a sort of introduction where Lachenmann lays out all the techniques he's gonna use in the piece, and the final minute or so forms a coda where all four musicians strike their instruments simultaneously. This coda (if it's to be called that) features only pitched notes in the score, though they are obscured by the hard pizzicatos; there must be some significance to that.
> 
> However, there may be more. The dissertation I linked to in my introductory post picked out 7 or 8 sections (I don't remember which), with a couple of later sections being variations of some earlier ones.


Thanks for that insight. I did note down that I felt there was a 'coda' but wasn't confident enough to state it in my post - the sound world being so new to me I wondered if Lachenmann would think in such traditional structural terms.


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## Mandryka

Yesterday I listened to Klangschatten, which was written in the same year as Gran Torso, it's very good. I also listened to an earlier piece, Notturno. All very good.

There's a works list here, one thing you see is that he revises stuff a lot.

http://composers21.com/compdocs/lachenmh.htm

Space, peace, interruption and silence, all seem to be important in this music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Dropping in with the weekly reminder and to update the schedule of nominators - next week is *20centrfuge*'s turn to choose a quartet. Nice to see we've had a couple more participants - we do have a couple folks on the upcoming order that have not participated in the thread for a long time so if they can't be reached, we'll move ahead a week and keep them on reserve for whenever they reappear. As of right now:

06/21-06/28: 20centrfuge
06/28-07/05: Euler
07/05-07/12: Iota
07/12-07/19: DTut
07/19-07/26: MissKittysMom
07/26-08/02: Malx


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## 20centrfuge

I was just thinking to have us listen to Pachelbel's Canon in D - the extended version for string quartet. :lol:


but seriously, do you want me to list the piece I'm picking on 6/21?


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## Enthusiast

I just listened to the Lachenmann while trying my best to imagine the sounds as normal and familiar musical sounds. It still sounded fairly radical and forward looking for the 1970s (I'm assuming that the 1988 revision we now know did not completely change the work). But of course the concrete sounds are a necessary part of the work. What remains striking is that the work can be so riveting and compelling. How is music that is "not easy to understand" - and where only the apparently random shifts in mood can be "followed" - so compelling?

What in this context is "understanding". Programme music, opera, ballet, songs and so on have meaning that can be given in words and there can be wide agreement as to the meaning. But a lot of - perhaps most - classical music has no meaning in those terms. We can rarely go beyond "tragic", "happy", "joyful", "sad", "angry" and so on and the transitions between these. Which words might be applied to Gran Torso? Desolation - perhaps post-industrial, perhaps with strange small creatures scurrying about over and under broken concrete slabs and twisted metal! Danger (possible danger). Isn't it a picture like the right (hell) panel of Hieronymus Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights? Or perhaps there are no creatures and it is more like Paul Nash's WW1 paintings like The Menin Road or Wire? Who knows? Perhaps it feeds different hallucinations to each of us. Is it music that is "stripped of meaning"? For us to find meaning for as we might with a Rorschach test?

I've also listened to a few other Lachenmann pieces from early 1970s (Pression) and late 1980s (Allegro Sostenuto and his 2nd quartet, Reigen seliger Geister) as well as Grido (his third - and last? - string quartet). Not surprisingly, perhaps, the sound world of Gran Torso is similar to that of Pression. By the mid-1980s it seems that Lachenmann's ideas had developed but he is more content to have the instruments sound like the instruments they are! Grido (2002) is a really excellent quartet with quite a lot of space in it, perhaps necessitated by the slightly richer musical language, as well as plenty of true drama.


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## Allegro Con Brio

20centrfuge said:


> I was just thinking to have us listen to Pachelbel's Canon in D - the extended version for string quartet. :lol:
> 
> but seriously, do you want me to list the piece I'm picking on 6/21?


You can announce it whenever you're ready, preferably before Sunday


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## 20centrfuge

*6/21 - 6/28 Gabriela Lena Frank: Quijotadas (2007)*


























QUIJOTADAS

Program Notes:
https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/35964/Quijotadas--Gabriela-Lena-Frank/

_Quijotadas (2007) for string quartet is inspired by El Ingenioso Hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra (1547-1616). Widely considered the first modern novel, this tale satirizes post-Conquest Spain by relating the tale of a middle-aged lesser nobleman who undertakes absurd adventures in pursuit of romantic - and seriously outdated - knightly ideals. Cervantes' brilliant and colorful resulting social commentary still reverberates for us today in the arts and popular culture at large. Quijotadas, which is the Spanish word for extravagant delusions wrought in the Quixotic spirit, is in five movements. They are:

I. Alborada: Traditionally a Spanish song of welcome or beginnings, this is in the style of music for the chifro, a small high-pitched wooden panpipe played with one hand. It is often employed by a traveling guild worker to announce his services as he walks through the streets of town.

II. Seguidilla: This free interpretation of the spirited dance rhythms of Don Quijote's homeland of La Mancha also evokes two typical instruments - the six-stringed guitar, and its older cousin, the bandurria, which finds its origins in Renaissance Spain.

III. Moto Perpetuo: La Locura de Quijote: This movement is inspired by an early chapter in the novel that describes Don Quixote sequestering himself in his hacienda, reading nothing but novels of chivalry, the pulp fiction of his time. The teasing promises of grandeur make him dizzy and he eventually goes mad.

IV. Asturianada: La Cueva: The style of this traditional mountain song (whereby a young male singer issues forth calls that rise and fall with great emotion and strength) is used to paint a portrait of the Cave of Montesinos. In an important episode of the novel, Don Quijote fantasizes about the legendary hero Montesinos trapped under enchantment in a highland cave.

V. La Danza de los Arrieros: Throughout the tale, Don Quijote is constantly rubbing up against arrieros (muleteers) who, for Cervantes, are the embodiment of reality in contrast to Don Quijote's fantasy world. The encounters with these roughnecks are always abrupt and physical, usually resulting in a sound thrashing for Quijote. Each beating brings him closer to reality, and in the end, he must poignantly reconcile himself to the fact that his noble ideals do not find a hospitable home in the contemporary world. _

- Gabriela Lena Frank


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## sbmonty

Another interesting choice. Thanks for the opportunity! I haven't heard this work or of the composer. Only one recording on Naxos. I'll give this one a listen tonight. 
Might be an opportunity to reread the novel as well!


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## Simplicissimus

Gabriela Lena Frank - _Quijotadas_ (2007)

THIS.

Listened on Youtube to the recordings posted by 20centrfuge. Absolutely love it! I read that Frank says her major influences are Bartók and Ginastera, and I certainly hear that in this piece. If we want to talk about contemporary CM that can draw audiences, I think this is a prime example. Simply marvelous.


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## Merl

What an interesting piece. Another one out of my comfort zone but unlike Lachenmann I really enjoyed this short work, particularly the 2nd movement (I'm a sucker for pizzicato - gets me every time). I felt transported to rural Spain but maybe that's because I'm still wondering if our holiday there will go ahead in 3 weeks' time. Whatever, this is a nice work and one I'll be playing again this week (if I ever get through all this Scriabin). Thanks 20centrfuge for this one.


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## Bwv 1080

Getting caught up here on both the Lachenmann and Frank.

The only Lachenmann piece I am familiar with (and like) is the guitar duo Salut fur Caudwell, which happens to also be on the Berner SQ 2000 recording. I think the whole acoustic music concrete thing is cool and he does it well, but ultimately I think he exhausted its possibilities over his career.

Was not familiar at all with Gabriela Frank. Its a nice piece and well crafted
Found this short interview


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> I think the whole acoustic music concrete thing is cool and he does it well, but ultimately I think he exhausted its possibilities over his career.


Well, I don't see why. Instrumental music concrete just gives the composer some new sounds to work with. It's a liberation from the limited range of instrumental effects which is taught in conservative conservatoires. Composers will make of it what they will.

The problem is to find a distinctive voice, but that's always a problem, whether you use electronic sound, non standard acoustic techniques or acoustic instruments played traditionally. . .

(Salut fur Caudwell is very good -- but I like all Lachenmann very much apart from his most recent work.)


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## Enthusiast

^ I guess the concreteness of Gran Torso is fairly extreme - or do I mean crude? - compared to later Lachenmann. In general Lachenmann was ahead of his time and continues to be influential.

The Frank piece (Quijotadas) is immediately attractive and seems filled with interesting and evocative music. Is there an element of novelty to it that could pall with familiarity? A week is not long enough for me to know. But I am enjoying listening to it for now.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I guess the concreteness of Gran Torso is fairly extreme - or do I mean crude? - compared to later Lachenmann. .


You mean bold.

Inspired by recent listening to both Rihm and Lachenmann I've just bought this


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## Enthusiast

^ No, not really. I do feel his music became more refined as he aged.


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## Iota

The G.L.Frank quartet is obviously quite programmatic and I think it succeeds very well at evoking events as described in 20centrfuge's #831. I found it very easy to imagine the music being danced to as I listened, it seems a piece that would naturally offer itself to such treatment. 
I enjoyed most the movements depicting Don Quijote's mental states (III - V) Frank seems an adept 'painter' particularly at these moments.


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## Knorf

Enthusiast said:


> ^ No, not really. I do feel [Lachenmann's] music became more refined as he aged.


I do, too. There's a new kind of lyricism that emerges, and is more compelling to me in his later music.

Lachenmann is also one of those composers who music is very much best heard live.

Well, okay that's true for all composers. But there's something about the special techniques Lachenmann employs, which are so fragile and intimate, and therefore really benefit from being there in person. A good example is his Toccatina for solo violin, which is mesmerizing live. A really, really great hifi system might capture it adequately, but it's very elusive. People end up turning the music up loud so they can hear everything, and loud this music ain't.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> ^ No, not really. I do feel his music became more refined as he aged.


Well I'm sorry to say that I think you're completely wrong if you include the music of the past few years, unless you equate refined with conventional. The latest stuff, the trio for example released on this CD, just seems to me a shameful sellout of laudable anti-bourgeois principles.









We should explore together the other two string quartets for the evolution in ideas and in style, Grido is quite late - 2001.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Gabriela Lena Frank: Quijotadas (2007)

A very creative choice this week, 20centrfuge! It was really nice to hear this in our group after so many weeks of heavier, more academic music - this was a lot of fun for me to hear. I really like Spanish-influenced music and I thought Frank did an excellent job at combining these idioms with a musical language that was not inaccessibly hard-edged (at least for me) but quite variegated. I agree with Simplicissimus that this would be a prime candidate to get people hooked on contemporary music. I would also be interested in comparing this musical representation of _Don Quixote_ with R. Strauss's tone poem of the same name Either way, I'm glad to have had the opportunity to hear this work and for us to have our first 21st century quartet! Will be listening again later this week.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Well I'm sorry to say that I think you're completely wrong if you include the music of the past few years, unless you equate refined with conventional. The latest stuff, the trio for example released on this CD, just seems to me a shameful sellout of laudable anti-bourgeois principles.
> 
> We should explore together the other two string quartets for the evolution in ideas and in style, Grido is quite late - 2001.


You may be right - I can't claim to know Lachenmann's music well enough to take a view. I only know a few pieces and not the CD you pictured or any recent work. Many modern composers have seemed to mellow as they aged, without that necessarily being a sell-out.

I'd certainly be in favour of exploring the three quartets. As you say, Grido is quite a late work but it is one I enjoy a lot. Would you describe it as a sellout? I think it is the latest piece of his that I know.


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## Mandryka

I don't think Grido is a sellout -- do you think it's more refined?

Lachenmann's decline and fall started in 2017 IMO, with this monstrosity






But then, in fairness, about the same time he was writing this rather nice bit of music


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## Mandryka

While we're on Lachenmann, this is wonderful


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> I don't think Grido is a sellout -- do you think it's more refined?


I do - at least in comparison with Gran Torso (and perhaps not in comparison with "Reigen seliger Geister"). I suppose I feel that one way of viewing the sounds Lachenmann wants in Gran Torso as a little gimmicky. The march is horrific! I liked the other two clips.


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## Knorf

I forgot about that _Marche fatale_. I'm not sure what to make of it. But _My Melodies_ certainly grabbed _my_ attention!


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I do - at least in comparison with Gran Torso (and perhaps not in comparison with "Reigen seliger Geister"). I suppose I feel that one way of viewing the sounds Lachenmann wants in Gran Torso as a little gimmicky. The march is horrific! I liked the other two clips.


Yes it's wonderful the way that little Lachenmann has got a natural feel for papa Lachenmann's style.


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## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> I don't think Grido is a sellout -- do you think it's more refined?





Enthusiast said:


> I do - at least in comparison with Gran Torso (and perhaps not in comparison with "Reigen seliger Geister"). I suppose I feel that one way of viewing the sounds Lachenmann wants in Gran Torso as a little gimmicky. The march is horrific! I liked the other two clips.


Not to interrupt your conversation, but I wonder if asking whether Lachenmann has sold out in his later music just reinforces the notion -- often assumed by traditionalists -- that there are only two extreme modalities to write music in: pitched music and "noise" music. I think Lachenmann would have problems with even asking this question in the first place. The whole point of musique concrète instrumentale isn't just to make as much noise as possible but to put the basic elements of music (including the more traditional elements) into their proper perspective, which in the case of Lachenmann means showing how these elements are physically generated. Lachenmann has no problems with a C major chord in itself but he wants to show all the different ways you can produce it (there's actually a big fat A major chord in _Gran Torso_, about 18 minutes in, and I think there's a diminished chord about five minutes in). I will say that in _Marche fatale_ he seems to have given up musique concrète altogether, but I don't think it's fair to extend that statement to _Grido_, even if in _Grido_ there are more "notes" and fewer "noises" (Lachenmann might even object to contrasting "notes" or "pitches" with "noises", since notes make up a subset of the larger universe of noises).


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## Mandryka

I think Lachenmann has made us all realise that the string and reed and woodwind instruments are vehicles for a surprisingly wide variety of timbric subtlety, richness of partials, polyphonic complexity and unexpected pitch relationships. I see this as progress, because more expressive sounds are available for the composer to work with. I can't think of any good musical reason to restrict music to the sort of pure stable sounds which traditionally trained musicians spend years and years of their lives learning how to produce.


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## Knorf

I agree, Mandryka. As a bassoonist, I quite enjoy learning and performing compositions like Lachenmann's that challenge or extend conventional notions of beauty. There's opportunity for transcendence and surprise. 

With standard repertoire, or pieces utilizing conventional playing techniques only, there are of course endless things to learn, but I am never surprised by what is beautiful about those pieces. That's perfectly ok, of course. But discovering beauty where I had not expected to find it at all is quite a wonderful thing.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's choice is supposed to go to *Euler* in our rotation, but he has not appeared in a month and a half. So, in the event we don't hear from him, could *Iota* be on standby for an emergency pick?


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's choice is supposed to go to *Euler* in our rotation, but he has not appeared in a month and a half. So, in the event we don't hear from him, could *Iota* be on standby for an emergency pick?


Sure, will come up with something by tomorrow if Euler doesn't show.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's choice is supposed to go to *Euler* in our rotation, but he has not appeared in a month and a half. So, in the event we don't hear from him, could *Iota* be on standby for an emergency pick?


Is it open to anyone to make a recommendation? To be added to the list I mean. I'd like to at some point if so. I've been lurking but haven't commented much since the last couple since Ravel.


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## Allegro Con Brio

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Is it open to anyone to make a recommendation? To be added to the list I mean. I'd like to at some point if so. I've been lurking but haven't commented much since the last couple since Ravel.


Definitely, I'll add you to the list


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Definitely, I'll add you to the list


Great, thanks (is 15 characters)


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## Iota

Okay, in the (I hope temporary) absence of Euler, I've made a choice.

It came to a toss-up between Britten's String Quartet No.2, a work I know well and love, and a recent discovery, Ginastera's String Quartet No.2. I decided to go for the latter, as I thought it might be less known (I wouldn't have known it three weeks ago ..) and I think it's a piece that really deserves to be heard. Having said that, on a board like this I'll probably now find out that everybody else knows it very well, hehe.

I got to know all three of his quartets recently and like them all very much, but the 2nd has somehow edged to the front of my affections for now. Many things I love about it, it's wildness, it's energy, it's dancing in and out of tonality, its moments of gossamer-like surreality (the Presto Magico e.g), to name only those.

The five movements are:

_I Allegro rustico
II. Adagio angoscioso
III. Presto magico
IV. Libero e rapsodico
V. Furioso_

The Enso Quartet (Naxos) is probably my favourite performance for now, but Cuarteto Latinoamericano and the Lyric quartet are not far behind.

The Cuarteto Latinoamericano can be heard here starting at 20:38 -






A couple of commentaries:

_"String Quartet No. 2, Op. 26, completed in 1958 and revised in 1968, was commissioned by the Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge Foundation and had its première with the Juilliard String Quartet at the first Inter-American Music Festival in Washington D.C. on 19 April 1958. Ginastera had progressed to his third phase, that of neo-expressionism (1958-1983), involving serial composition, microtones, indeterminacy, and polytonality. A further development is the quartet's five movement structure, a break from the traditional four movement classical quartet.
The opening establishes the twelve-tone row on which the movement is constructed but Ginastera allows himself sufficient freedom not to compose throughout in strict serialism. The Allegro rustico is divided between pulsating rhythms and quieter passages that are searching, intense, and reflective. The Adagio angoscioso (slow and anguished) movement expresses introspection rising to a dramatic climax. In ternary form the first part includes viola and cello solos. The middle section, freely atonal but not serial, progresses towards a finale heralded by a cello solo and the return of the first motif. The Presto magico, in rondo form, with two reprises of the main thematic material and two trio episodes, provides the hinge between the framing outer movements. This virtuosic scherzo exploits effects such as glissandi andpizzicato, with contrasting thematic fragments from the first violin. The fourth movement, Libero e rapsodico, begins with a violin cadenza stating the main theme, and moves to a cello cadenza, a solo by the second violin, and a final variation performed by the viola. Furioso, structured in the form of Sonata-Rondo, brings the quartet to an exciting conclusion with agitated rhythms, perpetual motion, syncopations and explosive energy."
(https://www.naxos.com/mainsite/blur...iletype=About this Recording&language=English)

"Ginastera completed his String Quartet No. 2, Op. 26 in 1958 on a commission by the Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge Foundation. It was premiered by the Juilliard String Quartet at the first Inter-American Music Festival in Washington D.C. the same year and it was regarded a major success. Ginastera revised the quartet a decade later 1968. This quartet represents his third phase of Neo-Expressionism where fiercely modern techniques predominate along with a rhythmic verve that still finds its essential roots in Argentine dance. Ginastera greatly admired the six string quartets of Bartók and his influence is strong in this quartet that has sometimes been called "Bartók's Seventh." As with Bartók's fourth and fifth quartets, Ginastera uses a five-movement "arch" form with symmetries of tempo and mood between the first and last, the second and forth, and a central keystone scherzo packed with advanced performance techniques that he significantly titles "Presto magico." The other movement markings suggest a quartet of powerful expression and character including "rustico", "angoscioso" (anquished), "Libero e rapsodico" and, for the bristling finale, "furioso." Complex, immensely difficult to perform and vividly affective, this is an unmistakable modern masterwork for string quartet, the product of a truly original artistic"

(https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Alberto-Ginastera-String-Quartet-No-2-Op-26/)_


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## sbmonty

Ginastera, Alberto (4/11/1916 - 6/25/1983)
Alberto Ginastera occupied a leading position in the musical world of his native Argentina, where he exercised strong influence over a younger generation of composers. He later spent much time in Europe, settling in Geneva. His style of writing developed from overt nationalism to a flexible application of the serialist principles proposed by Schoenberg - *from Naxos Music Library*.

Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't heard of this composer. Looking forward to another listening experience and some insightful comments.


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## Merl

Another SQ I haven't heard (but I have heard some of Ginastera's orchestral work).


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## Enthusiast

I really liked the Ginastera on my first hearing. Actually, I find that is often a sign with unfamiliar composers that I will tire of it quite quickly ... I hope not because I did like it a lot.


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## calvinpv

I went through a big Ginastera phase about 5 years ago when I first got into contemporary music. I've since gotten a bit tired of his music, because in my opinion, it seems to suffer from a lack of diversity in rhythms, as great as those rhythms are. But the tone clusters he uses ... so amazing. And the slow movements in some of his works (e.g. the cello sonata and the first string quartet) are some of the most beautiful I've ever heard, very mysterious and nocturnal.

The Enso Quartet recording sbmonty posted above is absolutely wonderful. In fact, the same could really be said for every Naxos CD on Ginastera. Look forward to hearing the Cuarteto Latinoamericano.


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## Knorf

It's been ages since I've heard Ginastera's Second Quartet. In fact, the last time was hearing the Cuarteto Latinoamericano perform it live! And then I got to go out for beer with them! Great musicians, great guys. Fond memories.

Anyway, looking forward!


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## Iota

Enthusiast said:


> I really liked the Ginastera on my first hearing. Actually, I find that is often a sign with unfamiliar composers that I will tire of it quite quickly ... I hope not because I did like it a lot.


Actually I'm the same. I'm often wary of my first impressions of unfamiliar pieces, as they often turn out to be false dawns. All I can say is that it's not been the case at all with this piece. Repeated listens have only increased my appreciation of it, revealing new virtues at each one.

It's a recent discovery made a few weeks ago, but in the past new pieces have managed to lose appeal between first and second hearings. Some things seem striking on first hearing, but by the second time the surprise seems to have largely evaporated and never quite returns.



calvinpv said:


> I went through a big Ginastera phase about 5 years ago when I first got into contemporary music. I've since gotten a bit tired of his music, because in my opinion, it seems to suffer from a lack of diversity in rhythms, as great as those rhythms are. But the tone clusters he uses ... so amazing. And the slow movements in some of his works (e.g. the cello sonata and the first string quartet) are some of the most beautiful I've ever heard, very mysterious and nocturnal.
> 
> The Enso Quartet recording sbmonty posted above is absolutely wonderful. In fact, the same could really be said for every Naxos CD on Ginastera. Look forward to hearing the Cuarteto Latinoamericano.


Interesting. I was thinking about exploring some of the piano music next, but I'll certainly also check out the cello sonata. I completely agree about the Enso Quartet recording!



Knorf said:


> It's been ages since I've heard Ginastera's Second Quartet. In fact, the last time was hearing the Cuarteto Latinoamericano perform it live! And then I got to go out for beer with them! Great musicians, great guys. Fond memories.
> 
> Anyway, looking forward!


Wow, lucky you, I bet that was fun! It was initially hearing their recording that turned me on to the quartets a few weeks ago, so if that ever happens to me, I'd feel duty bound to get the first round in!


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## Knorf

Iota said:


> Wow, lucky you, I bet that was fun! It was initially hearing their recording that turned me on to the quartets a few weeks ago, so if that ever happens to me, I'd feel duty bound to get the first round in!


Well, I was still a student, and I had volunteered to drive the violist, Javier Montiel, around to the gig and their hotel, so my memory is that he had bought the beer for me as a thank you!


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## Iota

Knorf said:


> Well, I was still a student, and I had volunteered to drive the violist, Javier Montiel, around to the gig and their hotel, so my memory is that he had bought the beer for me as a thank you!


Sounds like a win-win for you then!


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## Mandryka

Just randomly sampling on Qobuz and Spotify, this one made me prick up my ears


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## Simplicissimus

For me, it's the Cuarteto Latinoamericaono (Brilliant Classics, 2009) via streaming. Listening now and absolutely loving it. I tend to like Ginastera a lot and hear his work increasingly on CM radio, but I haven't heard his SQs before now.


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## calvinpv

Iota said:


> Interesting. I was thinking about exploring some of the piano music next, but I'll certainly also check out the cello sonata. I completely agree about the Enso Quartet recording!


The cello sonata is for cello and piano, so you'll get your piano fix in. And this might be blasphemy amongst Ginastera fans, but the cello sonata is probably my favorite work of his. More so than the SQs, the piano sonatas, the concertos, Popol Vuh, Estancia, and Panambi. I don't know if I can explain why, everything about it just clicks for me.

The recording of it on Naxos is phenomenal.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Iota said:


> Actually I'm the same. I'm often wary of my first impressions of unfamiliar pieces, as they often turn out to be false dawns.


This is well said.

I'm looking forward to listening to this.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This was my first time hearing anything from Ginastera, and I was _really_ impressed by what I heard so far. Irresistable energy, creative use of rhythm, tempered lyricism, harmonies that sound edgy and creative while still maintaining strong tonal undercurrents. The Latin American Quartet plays brilliantly too. Having two quartets from Latin-American composers in two weeks is something I never would have envisioned happening; there's just so much music from the 20th century from so many different nations and influenced by so many cultural traditions. This is one that definitely makes me want to come back and study it further.


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## BlackAdderLXX

This was interesting to listen to. I likewise had never heard anything from Ginastera. I found the energy and especially the rhythms in the outside movements to be very engaging. I also thought the Latin American Quartet performed this well and it was very well recording. I was glad to have given this a listen. Great recommendation!


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This was my first time hearing anything from Ginastera, and I was _really_ impressed by what I heard so far. Irresistable energy, creative use of rhythm, tempered lyricism, harmonies that sound edgy and creative while still maintaining strong tonal undercurrents. The Latin American Quartet plays brilliantly too.


I fully concur with all of that, and yes irresistible was very much my experience too! A word I'd also use to describe some of the delightfully unanchored tone clusters (as also mentioned by calvinpv), that drop into the action with such rhythmic and colouristic impact at times. Invigorating stuff!



Allegro Con Brio said:


> there's just so much music from the 20th century from so many different nations and influenced by so many cultural traditions.


Indeed. The 20th century seems like such an endless flowering of miraculous musical and artistic diversity, that I feel very glad to have been born when I was.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> This was interesting to listen to. I likewise had never heard anything from Ginastera. I found the energy and especially the rhythms in the outside movements to be very engaging. I also thought the Latin American Quartet performed this well and it was very well recording. I was glad to have given this a listen. Great recommendation!


Yeah, I'm with you on this BA70. I've listened a few times (Lyric Quartet, Enso, etc) and find the energy of the outer movements far more compelling than the inner ones, which seem a bit aimless at times. Btw, the Enso recording is definitely the most rewarding of the versions I've played (great recording and fiery accounts). Not one that I'll return to, I doubt, but well worth a listen.


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## Bwv 1080

Cool, only really know his Guitar Sonata, which is a beast and one of the great works for the instrument


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## Malx

Over the last few days I 've been playing catch up - listening to both the Frank quartet and the Ginastera.

The quartets were the first works I have listened to from these composers - the Ginastera is certainly the more easily accessible of the two in my view with Bartokian influences particularily noticeable in the outer movements. I liked this quartet feeling it is well balanced with the three central movements providing a contrast to the vitality of the first and last.
The Frank piece is more modern and more episodic in form - it only was after a couple of listens I realised it is based on sections of 'Don Quixote'. At this stage this is the piece of the two that would entice me back to listen more but both were very good.

As a little add on - isn't it great that both these relatively modern compositons are available in fine recordings from Naxos.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Over the last few days I 've been playing catch up - listening to both the Frank quartet and the Ginastera.
> 
> The quartets were the first works I have listened to from these composers - the Ginastera is certainly the more easily accessible of the two in my view with Bartokian influences particularily noticeable in the outer movements. I liked this quartet feeling it is well balanced with the three central movements providing a contrast to the vitality of the first and last.
> The Frank piece is more modern and more episodic in form - it only was after a couple of listens I realised it is based on sections of 'Don Quixote'. At this stage this is the piece of the two that would entice me back to listen more but both were very good.
> 
> As a little add on - isn't it great that both these relatively modern compositons are available in fine recordings from Naxos.


Aye, the Naxos-snobs will be tut-tutting in their houses . 
"Oh Geoffrey, you said you'd never bring one of those ghastly white covers into this house"!
"I know, Penelope, but the music's so good, the cost so competitive and the repertoire is so diverse that I had to have it! Remember when I sold half of my body organs to buy that 2CD Mahler 2nd symphony by the Fujima Philharmonic Orchestra from Exton? That's never going to happen again."
" Geoffrey, I'm leaving you. I fear you are becoming a vagrant! "
"... But Penelope... "
" It's no good pleading, Geoffrey. I knew this would happen. Think of poor Margot and what she had to endure when Simon bought that Brilliant Classics box set. No wonder she left him for Nigel. He's just bought a CPO complete set of Symphonies by a man who once powdered Mozart's wigs. Now that is class! "


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## Knorf

It's rare that TC posters feel sufficiently courageous to share such intimate details from their home lives.

I assume Geoffrey is you, Merl? It sniffs of authenticity.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> It's rare that TC posters feel sufficiently courageous to share such intimate details from their home lives.
> 
> I assume Geoffrey is you, Merl? It sniffs of authenticity


Poor Penelope. Luckily I hid that Tring CD I got from the charity shop.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Man...that Penelope is a real jerk...[/norm]


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## Iota

Bwv 1080 said:


> Cool, only really know his Guitar Sonata, which is a beast and one of the great works for the instrument


Nice piece!

(now 15 characters)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Listening to the Enso Quartet's rendition of the Ginastera right now. Perhaps not as nuanced as the Latin American Quartet and more harshly recorded, but still wonderful. I'm going to explore more Ginastera once I'm done.

Posting the weekly reminder a bit early this week since we have a couple more upcoming nominators who have not shown up in a while. *DTut* has only made one post in this thread when he asked to be added to the list back in May, so unless he miraculously appears by Saturday it looks like we'll be skipping ahead to *MissKittysMom*, who has been absent for a couple weeks. If both of those are no-shows, it will go to Malx or BlackAdder - whoever wants to step up! Below is the current schedule, which I'm guessing will be changing soon:

07/05-07/12: DTut
07/12-07/19: MissKittysMom
07/19-07/26: Malx
07/26-08/02: BlackAdderLXX

_On standby (will be added back to the rotation once they reappear)_
Euler
Vicente (the nice fellow who started this thread and promptly disappeared; I hope he's alright)

If we don't get any more nominators by August 2 we'll go back to the top of the rotation and figure things out from there. And an updated list of quartets:

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)

05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24-05/31: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31-06/07: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07-06/14: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
06/14-06/21: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
06/21-06/28: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
06/28-07/05: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)


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## 20centrfuge

Ginastera: 

I’m determined to write something about every work I listen to on this thread. 

I found this work to be a relatively tough listen. It’s quite a work: visceral, maniacal, tense, skittish, forlorn, like Bartok on acid.

I like the 3rd movement most!


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## Malx

Allegro - send me a PM if you need me to post a selection if others don't show.


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## DTut

Hold on, Hold on. I was just waiting for my week to come around. I'd like to suggest Mendelssohn SQ No. 6 in F minor, Op. 80.

This piece was written shortly after his beloved sister Fannie died. The opening Allegro - Presto is fantastic and rather aggressive compared to the tone of most other of his quartets. This is probably my favorite SQ of any composer.


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## DTut

This is an excellent interpretation. IMHO.

Dudok Kwartet | F. Mendelssohn-Bartholdy Streichquartett Nr. 6 f-Moll op. 80


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## DTut

Dudok Kwartet | F. Mendelssohn-Bartholdy Streichquartett Nr. 6 f-Moll op. 80


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## Merl

Jeez, I have lots of Mendelssohn SQ recordings. This could get messy. :lol:


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Jeez, I have lots of Mendelssohn SQ recordings. This could get messy. :lol:


What DON'T you have a lot of recordings of?


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> What DON'T you have a lot of recordings of?


Elliot Carter SQs.


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

DTut said:


> Hold on, Hold on. I was just waiting for my week to come around. I'd like to suggest Mendelssohn SQ No. 6 in F minor, Op. 80.
> 
> This piece was written shortly after his beloved sister Fannie died. The opening Allegro - Presto is fantastic and rather aggressive compared to the tone of most other of his quartets. This is probably my favorite SQ of any composer.


Sweet. I love Mendelssohn. I'm looking forward to it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Perfect, looking forward to this. I love Mendelssohn’s chamber music much more than any other genre he composed in, but I haven’t spent as much time with it as I’ve liked. I do remember thinking that this quartet was one of the darkest and most intense pieces he wrote, though.

Hey, and look here, Trout has a recommended recording list!

1. Leipzig String Quartet (2002)
2. Henschel Quartet (2001)
3. Artis Quartet (1988)
4. Talich Quartet (2003)
5. Lindsay String Quartet (1990)
6. Aurora String Quartet (1993)
7. Eroica Quartet (2005)
8. Quatuor Ysaÿe (1996)
9. Pacifica Quartet (2005)
10. Elias String Quartet (2006)


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## Knorf

BlackAdderLXX said:


> What DON'T you have a lot of recordings of?





Merl said:


> Elliot Carter SQs.


For shame.

.....


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## Simplicissimus

Really looking forward to this Mendelssohn experience! I don't own a single recording of a Mendelssohn SQ and am barely familiar with his SQ oeuvre. His symphonies, piano music, and Elias are well represented in my collection, so this is going to start to balance things out. I'm striking out on my own with a recording I'm streaming in Ultra HD (24-bit/96 kHz FLAC): Escher Quartet, 2016, BIS.


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## Enthusiast

I'll try it but I am usually underwhelmed by Mendelssohn. There are a few pieces of his that I like but I rarely play even them. But I don't know his quartets so let's see.


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## Mandryka

Drive forward! Edwardian gentleman wiping a tear on his coat sleeve in the adagio!


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## Merl

Some background...

_"The story behind String Quartet No 6, Op 80, by Felix Mendelssohn doesn't hide behind any fictional tale. In 1847, Felix Mendelssohn was overwhelmed with grief after he lost his closest friend, collaborator and sister Fanny Mendelssohn to a sudden fatal stroke. Upon learning of her death he reportedly shrieked and collapsed to the floor. His last string quartet, his Op 80, has no resemblance to any of his previous works. Instead of the lightness of his famous scherzi, we find a work that is unrelentingly angry and at times brutal. He infused the first and second movements with pain and frustration through repeated accentuations, furious tempos and the dark and gloomy key of F minor. Furthermore, the drama of Beethoven's own string quartets and the contrapuntal texture of Bach are clear influences in these movements. After two tumultuous movements, the third is a reprieve from the onslaught of grief. It is a nostalgic episode where Mendelssohn reflects on his love for his sister with tender and graceful figures. The primary theme is a sorrowful but sweet melody that is reminiscent of his Songs Without Words. A hushed peaceful chord concludes the movement but Mendelssohn's anguish returns in the finale. The conclusion of the Op 80 is one of the most virtuosic in the repertoire. The final coda moves with breathtaking speed and force and solidifies this work's stature as one of the most celebrated quartets ever written."

from notes by Calidore String Quartet © 2018_


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Some background...
> 
> _"The story behind String Quartet No 6, Op 80, by Felix Mendelssohn doesn't hide behind any fictional tale. In 1847, Felix Mendelssohn was overwhelmed with grief after he lost his closest friend, collaborator and sister Fanny Mendelssohn to a sudden fatal stroke. Upon learning of her death he reportedly shrieked and collapsed to the floor. His last string quartet, his Op 80, has no resemblance to any of his previous works. Instead of the lightness of his famous scherzi, we find a work that is unrelentingly angry and at times brutal. He infused the first and second movements with pain and frustration through *repeated accentuations, furious tempos* and the dark and gloomy key of F minor. Furthermore, the drama of *Beethoven*'s own string quartets and the contrapuntal texture of Bach are clear influences in these movements. After two *tumultuous *movements, the third is a reprieve from the onslaught of grief. It is a nostalgic episode where Mendelssohn reflects on his love for his sister with tender and graceful figures. The primary theme is a *sorrowful but sweet* melody that is reminiscent of his Songs Without Words. A hushed peaceful chord concludes the movement but Mendelssohn's *anguish *returns in the finale. The conclusion of the Op 80 is one of the most virtuosic in the repertoire. The final coda moves with *breathtaking speed and force* and solidifies this work's stature as one of the most celebrated quartets ever written."
> 
> from notes by Calidore String Quartet © 2018_


The horror! The horror! This quartet has everything I don't like about classical music.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> The horror! The horror! This quartet has everything I don't like about classical music.


It's OK Mandryka. It only lasts a week.


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## BlackAdderLXX

DTut said:


> This is an excellent interpretation. IMHO.
> 
> Dudok Kwartet | F. Mendelssohn-Bartholdy Streichquartett Nr. 6 f-Moll op. 80


So I just finished listening to this performance on YouTube. I don't believe I've heard this quartet before and it's really beautiful. I'm going to get some other recordings together and give this a few more listens. I really love Mendelssohn.


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## sbmonty

Great choice! These are the two recordings I own. Lots of recordings out there to check out. I started listening last night.


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## Knorf

Mandryka said:


> The horror! The horror! This quartet has everything I don't like about classical music.


The full range of human emotion, not for you, huh? Or just that you don't want Classical music to express a full range of human emotion? So, just music always expressed in an idealized state, and not, you know, "the real thing"? Just curious.


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## Knorf

I'm catching up with the Ginastera, which I'd heard before but not for years and years. I think it's a great quartet, and I dearly wish I had picked up the Cuarteto Latinoamericano CD back when it wasn't being listed for hundreds of dollars. Obviously, there is the clear debt to Béla Bartók, but I see that only as a point of reference, since there is a very clear, distinctive personal style at work. The lyrical elements, in particular, to me sound very personal. It is certainly a _tour de force_ for the quartet, and it's a pity more quartets haven't picked it up for the repertoire.

By the way, I thought the new quartet for the week was supposed to start on Sunday, announced late Saturday, perhaps, and now it seems to have advanced to _Thursday_? That seems not ideal. But, I guess it doesn't matter. It's my own fault I didn't put on the Ginastera days ago.

But anyway I love Mendelssohn, and this is a quartet I don't know! That'll be fun. And I, for one, welcome a full range of human emotion in music. Mendelssohn is so-often (incorrectly, imo) typecast as bubbly and light.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Knorf said:


> By the way, I thought the new quartet for the week was supposed to start on Sunday, announced late Saturday, perhaps, and now it seems to have advanced to Thursday? That seems not ideal. But, I guess it doesn't matter. It's my own fault I didn't put on the Ginastera days ago.


Sorry, yes, that is usually how it goes. The weekly reminder should be on Thursday. From now on we'll get back on track


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## Enthusiast

I did play the Ginastera a couple more times and still enjoy it. If I have a criticism of it it is that it may lack coherence as a single work? The lively two outer movements do not wholly seem to belong with the three middle movements. I must say I think I enjoy the 3rd quartet a little more. 

And now on to Mendelssohn's last quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Listening to Henschel right now, and it’s laceratingly intense. I honestly can’t remember hearing quartet playing that had such drive and fire. Brilliant. I certainly count this as a candidate for Mendelssohn’s magnum opus alongside the 3rd symphony and Elijah. 

While we eagerly await Merl’s comprehensive, professionally written surveys, what recordings does everyone have their eye on? I would like to at least sample Talich, Artis, Ebene, and Eroica (which I think is HIP?) Trout’s top recommendation, Leipzig Quartet, seems not to be available on streaming or YouTube, curious considering it’s a DG recording.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Listening to Henschel right now, and it's laceratingly intense. I honestly can't remember hearing quartet playing that had such drive and fire. Brilliant. I certainly count this as a candidate for Mendelssohn's magnum opus alongside the 3rd symphony and Elijah.
> 
> While we eagerly await Merl's comprehensive, professionally written surveys, what recordings does everyone have their eye on? I would like to at least sample Talich, Artis, Ebene, and Eroica (which I think is HIP?) Trout's top recommendation, Leipzig Quartet, seems not to be available on streaming or YouTube, curious considering it's a DG recording.


Yes, I'm also finding it intense and brilliant. Definitely need to hear several different performances of this one. The Leipziger Streichquartett is my favorite for Beethoven and I would like to hear them play this Mendelssohn, but I also don't have them streaming. Now that I've heard the Eschers a couple of times I think I'll try the Guarneris with the notion that they might play the piece quite differently. The Guarneris are my favorite for Mozart.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Listening to Henschel right now, and it's laceratingly intense. I honestly can't remember hearing quartet playing that had such drive and fire. Brilliant. I certainly count this as a candidate for Mendelssohn's magnum opus alongside the 3rd symphony and Elijah.
> 
> While we eagerly await Merl's comprehensive, professionally written surveys, what recordings does everyone have their eye on? I would like to at least sample Talich, Artis, Ebene, and Eroica (which I think is HIP?) Trout's top recommendation, Leipzig Quartet, seems not to be available on streaming or YouTube, curious considering it's a DG recording.


Oi, ACB! However, you're right, I have a stack of recordings to plough thru and I'll start tomorrow (but I've ruled a few out today).


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Oi, ACB! However, you're right, I have a stack of recordings to plough thru and I'll start tomorrow (but I've ruled a few out today).


No pressure Merl, but I know you'll live up to the task


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## TurnaboutVox

The last of our nominated string quartets that I got a chance to listen to was Lachenmann's Gran Torso. A great deal has been said about this work here which really illuminated it for me.

I listened to all four recordings available on Spotify (Arditti, Jack, Berner and Stadler Quartets) and although I enjoyed all of them, I thought the JACK Quartet my favourite interpretation. The work itself I really enjoyed - I heard it once before when we were compiling our "Top 200 String Quartets" but at that time it passed me by amongst many other previously unheard works heard in too-quick succession!

The detailed analysis of the composer's intentions and methods helped greatly - I was again greatly helped to appreciate this quartet by having the Amei Quartet's YouTube available to see as well as hear.

So now to try to catch up a bit during the week as I'd particularly like to reacquaint myself with the Ginastera work.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Emerson, Pacifica, Quatuor Ysaÿe and I'm currently listening to the Henschel Quartet. I feel like I'm starting to get a clue on this quartet. The only one I haven't really cared for so far was Emerson, which struck me as a bit flat and unenthusiastic. I'll probably listen to a few more (pity Leipzig isn't on Amazon) but so far Henschel is probably my favorite. In general I really enjoy how this piece kicks off. You know you're in for some kind of ride right from the jump off. What a great work.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I really love these guys. Someone here turned me on to them and I was immediately taken with their work. First of all the engineering on their recordings is incredible. It sounds close mic'ed but without the extraneous noises you can hear many times in that type of recording. They manage to leverage that dynamic range very well, especially in the second movement which in my opinion is the best I've heard in any of these recordings. Their intonation seems close to perfect and their ensemble play is superb. I think this is my favorite I've heard so far, though I also really appreciate the energy the Henschel Quartet puts into the first movement of SQ #6 as well. Anyway, Calidore is worth checking out. They've only got a couple of albums out now, I'm probably going to start collecting them. I easily like them as much as Pavel Haas Quartet.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> View attachment 139169
> 
> 
> I really love these guys. Someone here turned me on to them and I was immediately taken with their work. First of all the engineering on their recordings is incredible. It sounds close mic'ed but without the extraneous noises you can hear many times in that type of recording. They manage to leverage that dynamic range very well, especially in the second movement which in my opinion is the best I've heard in any of these recordings. Their intonation seems close to perfect and their ensemble play is superb. I think this is my favorite I've heard so far, though I also really appreciate the energy the Henschel Quartet puts into the first movement of SQ #6 as well. Anyway, Calidore is worth checking out. They've only got a couple of albums out now, I'm probably going to start collecting them. I easily like them as much as Pavel Haas Quartet.


Ive just been listening to the Calidore and it's made a similar positive impression on me, too. I won't be commenting fully yet as I'll sum up later in the week but yep. Of the ones I've listened to up to now I'd class Tippett, Minetti, Melos, Alcan and Ulbricht as decent but undistinguished guides through this SQ and the New Zealand Quartet as wholly uncompetitive due to the ghastly acoustic and their fairly unimpressive playing. Trout's list is actually starting to look pretty creditable from what I've heard up to now (but there are others)


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## BlackAdderLXX

Today I got a chance to listen to The Leipzig and Aurora, and I also listened again to the Calidore, Pacifica, Elias, Eroica and Henschel. I really love this piece. The outside movements are so passionate and have similar themes so it's like a conclusion to the story, and the second movement is just so powerful. This is definitely one of my favorite SQs now. 

I've been enjoyed all of those listed by Trout, but I've been very impressed with Leipzig, Aurora, Henschel and Calidore.


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## Merl

I've got a few about another 3 to listen to tomorrow then I'll post my thoughts.


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## Simplicissimus

Where have you been finding the Leipziger Quartet? I don’t seem to have them on Amazon HD. I’m getting ready for another round of listening over the next couple of days.


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## Merl

I've loved this SQ for a long time and along with the 2nd SQ it's my favourite Mendelssohn SQ, totally unlike his others. I just love the tremelo in the first movement, the beauty of the 3rd...it's just a joy. There's a few ways of interpreting it. Some go for a darker approach, some for a more angry, brutal reading and others play it in a loving, spiritual way. I'm open to any interpretation as long as it works as a cohesive whole. The key is to be consistent in your thoughts and playing style. So after living with the different recordings for a few days I've collated my thoughts on the recordings I have, or those I've listened to via Spotify. Here goes. Remember these are only MY thoughts and only apply to this quartet and not to the whole Mendelssohn cycles that some are from (although some of these are from single perfromances not part of a complete set)......

*Tier 2 - The Very Good*

Dudok (Solitude album)
Cherubini (solid all-rounder)
Emerson (underplayed but great playing)
Artemis (lacks emotional depth)
Bartholdy (sounds a litle dated but solid reading)
Coull (Lovingly played but needs more umph)
Modigliani (not a clear vision of the whole SQ but superbly played)
Maggini (excellent until the finale which is poor)
Vision (interesting interpretation, played from memory whilst stood up!)
Carducci (a real grower, gathers a head of steam)
Kuss (stunning Oehms recorded sound, in-your-face, close-up miking but certainly one that makes you sit up)
*
Tier 1 - Excellent*

Ysaye (deep, rich bass, lovely account)
Escher (limited vibrato, cohesive, angry)
Eroica (great all-rounder, period instruments)
Calidore (Really well-played and thoughtful. Very impressive)
Pacifica (absolutely stunning recorded sound, good tension but I want more emotion)
Minguet (tight and punchy, similar to Aurora but not as good)
Henschel (Superb, a hair's breath off the top for me)
Doric (Beautifully emotional, only let down by broad pacing of 2nd movement or it would have been in the top slots. I may come back to this as it's a very different but valid account of the allegro assai and I'm still not sure if it works)
Talich (highly-charged, super sound, one of the angrier accounts in the first two movements)
Mandelring (superb, narrowly missed the very top tier)
*
Top Tier - Sublime*

*Leipzig *









Absolutely brilliant playing. This one plays the middle line between darkness, anger and love. All movements work really well and as a whole it's a highly classy, perfect performance.

*Elias*









An account full of angst and pain but with tenderness and joy in the 3rd movement. Really impressive and I love the sound of the cello, in particular. Rich and sonorous.

*Psophos*









A late addition but what a belting account. Full of vitality and power. Very impressive indeed. I forgot about this one which I picked up as a digital download a while back on recommendation.

*
My top Pick*
*Aurora*









Everything about this performance works. The recording is superb with lots of clean bass. It's quick, urgent and for me conveys the spirit of the piece differently than the others. The Aurora's first two movements are less angry yet express the pain of Mendelssohn's loss whilst celebrating his love for his sister without going over the top. The 3rd movement is absolutely beautiful, seeming to rejoice in the memory of his sister without moping or soppy sentimentality. The final movement conveys spirit and joyfulness more than any of the others I've listened to.

As I said, there was a Rizla paper beetween Tier 1 recordings and the very best, it's just a matter of personal preference.


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## Knorf

Thanks for that overview, Merl! It's so weird that I've somehow inadvertently dodged getting to know this string quartet, and your post will go a long ways towards helping me correct that.


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## BlackAdderLXX

@Merl great post man. I totally agree with you on Pacifica "absolutely stunning recorded sound, good tension but I want more emotion". I was trying to put my finger on what it was that kept me from loving it and you nailed it.

The Aurora and the Leipzig are both tops for me as well, though I think I prefer the emotion and the style of engineering of the Henschel as my top pick. Calidore is in there toward the top as well, but more for their second movement than anything else. All three of my other top picks hit the ground running in the first movement better (imo). 

This has been a fun listening project for me. I'll most likely keep listening to my top picks for the rest of the week as this piece has worked its way into my heart as a favorite. I need to listen to Mendelssohn's other quartets now, as I've only really listened to this one and #2 and have really enjoyed them both.


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## Josquin13

I was surprised that neither Trout nor Merl mentioned one of my favorite recordings of Mendelssohn's last SQ no. 6, Op. 80 by the Gewandhaus String Quartet on NCA (part of their very fine complete set). String players that trained at the Leipzig Conservatory are about as idiomatic in Mendelssohn's music as you can get, in my opinion.






Sorry I've not been active on this thread for a while, but my dog passed away a few weeks ago & I haven't felt like listening to chamber music.


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## Enthusiast

This thread seems to be mostly posts from people who know the work well about performances. I'm the opposite in that I rarely listen to Mendelssohn, can't think of too many of his works that I like (and even those I could live without) and didn't know this quartet. I have been listening to the Doric recording and must say that I do like the work. I'm not sure that I can hear the angst and anger that I am meant to hear in this work - perhaps it is in comparison to most Mendelssohn? - but I do hear a mature work of some power and lots of appealing invention. I'm not going to attempt a comparison of recordings. But will carry on listening to the work and may branch out to a couple of other Mendelssohn quartets to hear if I maybe like them, too.


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## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> I forgot about that _Marche fatale_. I'm not sure what to make of it. But _My Melodies_ certainly grabbed _my_ attention!


I'm enjoying this

https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/5415/9/Ian_Pace_-_Positive_or_Negative_2.pdf


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> I was surprised that neither Trout nor Merl mentioned one of my favorite recordings of Mendelssohn's last SQ no. 6, Op. 80 by the Gewandhaus String Quartet on NCA (part of their very fine complete set). String players that trained at the Leipzig Conservatory are about as idiomatic in Mendelssohn's music as you can get, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I've not been active on this thread for a while, but my dog passed away a few weeks ago & I haven't felt like listening to chamber music.


Firstly sorry to hear about your dog, Jozzy. That's crap. Always horrid losing a beloved pet! The reason I didn't mention the Gewandhaus recording is I haven't heard it and didn't know it existed. I will pop off and see if I can track it down. Again, im sorry for your loss.


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## 20centrfuge

Like Enthusiast, I don’t know Mendelssohn too well, though I’ve always considered the violin concerto a masterpiece. I’ve really enjoyed this beautiful and heartfelt work. Thank you for introducing me to it!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Josquin13 said:


> I was surprised that neither Trout nor Merl mentioned one of my favorite recordings of Mendelssohn's last SQ no. 6, Op. 80 by the Gewandhaus String Quartet on NCA (part of their very fine complete set). String players that trained at the Leipzig Conservatory are about as idiomatic in Mendelssohn's music as you can get, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I've not been active on this thread for a while, but my dog passed away a few weeks ago & I haven't felt like listening to chamber music.


1. I'm sorry to hear about your dog. 
2. Thanks for sharing this video. I had no idea it existed and it was excellent.


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## annaw

I want to join in on the fun, particularly after Merl's profound post! I listened to Aurora's recording - very marvellous playing and it is a truly wonderful quartet! I really love Mendelssohn and his great use of melodies but I'm not well acquainted with his quartets - it's time to sort out that problem I suppose.

Really interested to hear the Leipzigers - their LVB cycle has got my hopes up!


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## Knorf

I've been a big Mendelssohn fan since I was a lad, mainly through the symphonies, but also the piano trios, the Octet, the Piano Sextet, as well as the overture and incidental music to _A Midsummer Night's Dream_, and sundry other pieces. Of course the _Hebrides Overture_ is something every young orchestral musician encounters early on, and I loved it, too. For some reason, the concertos, especially the Piano Concerto No. 1 took a little longer for me to warm to, but now I love them.

Also, I'm an avowed nut about string quartets.

So why the heck didn't I know this quartet already?! No idea. I'm fairly certain I've never heard it previously, not even live. Better late than never, right?

Anyway, what a great choice! It's relatively conventional in terms of tonal relationships, especially compared to the Schumann from a couple months ago, but it packs an emotional wallop, and the string writing especially in terms of range and texture is quite brilliant.

It's fantastic. I like the darker side of Mendelssohn quite a lot.


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## Josquin13

Merl & BlackAdderLXX,

Thanks for you condolences. It's been a rough past couple of months. I went straight from my quarantine with COVID-19 into nursing and caring for my sick dog. You never quite realize how much a part of your daily life and routine your dog has become until they're gone. I'm only just now beginning to not expect her to be there, as she always was for over 12 years.

Anyways, the Gewandhaus Quartett's Mendelssohn set is excellent. I've preferred it to the other sets that I own by the Melos Quartett, Coull Quartet, & Pacifica Quartet. Unfortunately, the set has gone out of print, so it's pricier than it used to be: https://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-Complete-Quartets-Gewandhaus-Quartett/dp/B002AT467W. Of course, I haven't heard as many Mendelssohn recordings as Merl has, so I can't compare the Gewandhaus Qt. to a wide spectrum of performances, as he had done. But I do think they're top notch in this music.


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## BlackAdderLXX

annaw said:


> I want to join in on the fun, particularly after Merl's profound post! I listened to Aurora's recording - very marvellous playing and it is a truly wonderful quartet! I really love Mendelssohn and his great use of melodies but I'm not well acquainted with his quartets - it's time to sort out that problem I suppose.
> 
> Really interested to hear the Leipzigers - their LVB cycle has got my hopes up!


If you get the chance, check out Henschel as well. They play at the same high(est?) level as Aurora and Leipzig.


----------



## annaw

BlackAdderLXX said:


> If you get the chance, check out Henschel as well. They play at the same high(est?) level as Aurora and Leipzig.


I certainly will! As Merl effectively proved, there seems to be very many wonderful recordings of this particular quartet which would surely be fascinating to explore.


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## starthrower

62 pages already! I'm sorry I lost track of this thread. I was lurking when it started. Anyway, I gave a listen to Gran Torso by the Arditti's which was interesting. I was expecting something far more disturbing after reading some of the comments. How someone conceives and writes a piece like that is a complete mystery to me but I'm glad it exists.

The Kurtag sounded like familiar territory by comparison. I enjoyed that one. I didn't know who to pick for the Mendelssohn so I chose the live performance on YT on that cool stage with the glass walls. It's a great sounding venue for this classic quartet. Big, warm, resonant tones and great playing.


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## Knorf

Josquin13, condolences from me as well. Losing our beloved furry friends is very hard. I'm 50, but I don't think I ever bawled my eyes out as hard as I did, certainly not since adolescence, when I received the terminal cancer diagnosis over the phone about our previous dog. Good to have you back!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Nice to see we have a couple more on board! Annaw and Starthrower, would you like to be added to the list of nominators?

Speaking of which, if *MissKittysMom* doesn't show up this week it looks like the choice will go to *Malx.*


----------



## starthrower

Is there a page here listing which quartets have been covered? I have a composer in mind but I'll have to revisit my CDs and pick a quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here you go!

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)

05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24-05/31: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31-06/07: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07-06/14: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
06/14-06/21: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
06/21-06/28: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
06/28-07/05: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
07/05-07/12: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)


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## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Nice to see we have a couple more on board! Annaw and Starthrower, would you like to be added to the list of nominators?
> 
> Speaking of which, if *MissKittysMom* doesn't show up this week it looks like the choice will go to *Malx.*


Yes, you can add me to the list as well!


----------



## Merl

annaw said:


> I certainly will! As Merl effectively proved, there seems to be very many wonderful recordings of this particular quartet which would surely be fascinating to explore.


Ive gotta say that of all the SQs that I've reviewed up to now this particular one has more very high quality recordings than any other (including the Ravel). Even recordings I put in my 2nd tier are impressive and there was probably at least 20 I'd happily recommend to anyone. We really are spoiled in this one.


----------



## Malx

The Mendelssohn was new to me I have listened to a few performances over the week, from Merls list, and on the whole the piece surprised me. 
Perhaps I was expecting something a bit more soft and cuddly from Mendelssohn - a preconception on my part which is always dangerous I know, but I found more energy and a bit of darkness in the outer movements along with a nice balance in the central movements. Enjoyable stuff!


----------



## Josquin13

Knorf,

Thanks for your kind words. I know what you mean. My brother lost his dog of 11 years to cancer just yesterday, and I was on the phone with him for a couple of hours. He broke up a number of times and couldn't speak. Dogs are the most extraordinary creatures and faithful companions. They're so graceful, sweet, and loving, and so bravely protective of those they love. They can teach us humans a lot about how to love more unconditionally & become better people.

Malx,

It's great to see someone from the old Amazon classical forum here. I hope you're doing well.

Which has me wondering, is there anyone else on this thread from the old Amazon forum? As I've kind of lost track of the people that changed their names when they joined Talk Classical (for the most part). (& I do wish that Larkenfield was still around, as I think he'd have really liked this thread.)


----------



## Malx

Josquin13 said:


> Knorf,
> 
> Thanks for your kind words. I know what you mean. My brother lost his dog of 11 years to cancer just yesterday, and I was on the phone with him for a couple of hours. He broke up a number of times and couldn't speak. Dogs are the most extraordinary creatures and faithful companions. They're so graceful, sweet, and loving, and so bravely protective of those they love. They can teach us humans a lot about how to love more unconditionally & become better people.
> 
> Malx,
> 
> It's great to see someone from the old Amazon classical forum here. I hope you're doing well.
> 
> Which has me wondering, is there anyone else on this thread from the old Amazon forum? As I've kind of lost track of the people that changed their names when they joined Talk Classical (for the most part). (& I do wish that Larkenfield was still around, as I think he'd have really liked this thread.)


Hi Josquin,
Sorry to hear about your recent loss, I have never owned a dog but I have witnessed friends' distress at a pets passing. 
I am fine, thanks for asking.
I'm sure there are still plenty of the refugees from the old Amazon forum kicking about on TC. As to this thread, I'm a new participant so I don't know for sure who is all involved. I do know that enthusiast contributes, if you are looking for the others the thread below has details of a good number of the people who came across and changed names.
The thread was started by KenOC:

I can't do a link but the thread is - 'Amazonians, register here!'

Malx.


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## Knorf

Aside from their predilections toward sniffing arseholes and barking at nothing, there are numerous ways dogs are better people than people.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wow, I totally agree with Merl that Naxos hit it out of the park with that Aurora recording. Gorgeous tone, beautiful phrasing without being overly harsh and aggressive in the fast movements (an easy trap to fall into - Mendelssohn requires a quicksilver lightness that has to avoid falling into empty virtuosity) but the emotional palette is still conveyed very well. Great way to wrap up a rewarding week of quartet listening.


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## sbmonty

I've enjoyed this quartet. Listening to the Aurora version now. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to spend time with some of the other Mendelssohn quartets later this morning.

Josquin, I would like to express my condolences over your loss as well. I grew up with dogs. Lovely beings.


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## Enthusiast

Josquin13 said:


> Which has me wondering, is there anyone else on this thread from the old Amazon forum? As I've kind of lost track of the people that changed their names when they joined Talk Classical (for the most part). (& I do wish that Larkenfield was still around, as I think he'd have really liked this thread.)


I was on that forum - same name but no capital. Very sorry to hear about your dog ... I'm afraid mine is now so old (and lame and deaf and nearly blind) that I'll be in the same situation quite soon.


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## Iota

I don't listen to Mendelssohn a lot, I know the popular works, but don't think I've heard any of the string quartets before. 
Whenever I've heard his string writing, including the remarkable string symphonies (written between ages 12 - 14!), he always seems very strong, though it's obviously a facility that applies throughout the orchestral family too, and this quartet which I enjoyed, seems no exception. 
Have listened once with the Eroica, who seemed very good indeed, but will try with current TC quartet of the moment Aurora, also.

Josquin, condolences on your loss. Dogs are wonderful companions and their loss can be every bit as painful as human loss.


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## Josquin13

Thanks everyone for your condolences. I appreciate it. What a nice group of people you are! I don't think it's a coincidence that music lovers are also (apparently) dog lovers, too.

Knorf writes, "Aside from their predilections toward sniffing arseholes and barking at nothing, there are numerous ways dogs are better people than people."

Yes, I agree. Speaking of which, their sense of smell is a lot better than ours, too. I've been told that they can catalogue hundreds, if not thousands of smells in their brains, and I suspect they never forget a smell. It's like reading the daily newspaper for them. Although I've never understood why they enjoy licking and eating poop so much (& I don't think I want to find out).

Thanks Malx, for mentioning the Amazon thread. Glad to hear that you are well.

I'll try to catch up on the quartets that I missed.


----------



## Malx

Preamble - having recently joined the group my first 'proper' week exposed me to the, for me, radically different world of Lachenmann's Gran Torso quartet. Since then I have been ferreting around and listening to various quartets that I find opening up new areas of listening experiences for me - I believe this is something this kind of group stimulates.
I have chosen for my first selection a quartet that a few weeks ago I had never listened to by a composer I had heard of but had not experienced hearing any of his works. For me it is a fairly challenging piece which I have grown to like greatly - hopefully from the comments that are posted by those with more technical musical knowledge than I, I may find out why I like it!

*String Quartet No 2 by Roberto Gerhard*

Composed 1960 - 1962 in seven shortish sections - this is not a lengthy work so will not take up too much time, but repeated listening will be easy to accomodate.
Gerhard was born in Spain but spent a large part of his later life in the UK. He studied with Granados and for four years with Schoenberg, I believe influences from both can be heard.
I trust it will be of interest to all even if it is not to everyones taste.

Here is a link to The Arditti Quartet's recording.


----------



## Mandryka

From the booklet essay in the Arditti recording



> Divided into seven continuous sections, the single
> movement explores three different types of continuity
> here, whose alternation Gerhard believed strongly
> affected the listener's consciousness of the passage
> of time. The first of these involves rhythmically fluid
> passages, in which a lot seems to happen, many events
> and tonal shapes quickly appearing and disappearing.
> The second type of continuity involves apparently
> static yet pulsating patterns based on what Gerhard
> called 'time-lattices'. In this kind of music he made
> lavish use of sounds of indeterminate pitch, obtained
> by unorthodox ways of playing the instruments. The
> third type of continuity - which is foreshadowed in
> the third movement of Quartet No. 1 but taken much
> further in No. 2 - resembles an action experienced in
> extreme slow motion. In terms of sound events, very
> little happens, but as Gerhard wrote of one of his other
> late works, 'everything casts long shadows, conjuring
> up, ideally, the magic sense of uneventfulness'. The
> sense of metre is suspended, and the music appears
> to be evolving like a natural phenomenon, independent
> of the composer


In addition to Arditti, there's an earlier recording









on youtube but broken up into each of the seven sections, here's the first.


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## Simplicissimus

I'm listening on streaming to this work recorded by Quartet Gerhard. It's the only recording I can find on my service. Poking around the Web, I find that Quartet Gerhard is a new ensemble of Catalan musicians resident in Berlin. The Gerhard SQ No. 2 is on their album, "Quartet Gerhard: Portrait" on the Seed label which also contains works of Mendelssohn, Ravel, and Toldra.

I like this music. The sections are very short and the whole piece is short. It's relentlessly dissonant and has that mid-century portentious mood, little or no tenderness, but not pretentiously harsh. I will listen to it a few more times as I gradually relate the critical descriptions of the sections to my listening experiences.


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## Enthusiast

^ They will probably be a short-live quartet unless they can find a better place to play in.


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## Iota

I liked the Gerhard very much on first hearing and will certainly be returning to it, as I feel it has much more yet to offer. On this initial encounter I was particularly struck by the earlier and latter stages. Nice choice!



Malx said:


> I have been ferreting around and listening to various quartets that I find opening up new areas of listening experiences for me - I believe this is something this kind of group stimulates.


This thread has really illuminated for me the protean qualities of the string quartet as a medium. The absolutely new sonic territory in the Lachenmann I found extraordinary, story-telling of a brand new kind, and the regions of sensibility explored in this Gerhard for example, seem to open new doors on what is possible.

And then on this thread I guess I hardly need to mention the huge diversity in the already established canon, from the 20th century back to the eighteenth, some examples of which I've really enjoyed meeting/re-meeting here. It's a well that really doesn't seem to run dry.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Enthusiast said:


> ^ They will probably be a short-live quartet unless they can find a better place to play in.


Rehearsal space is expensive cousin... though I imagine the acoustics leave room for improvement.


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## Enthusiast

^ A Covid-impoverished quartet?


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## 20centrfuge

Ahh the Gerhard, a work I've never heard by a composer I've never heard of. A composer who resembles Ben Stein. I'm listening to it more and more and am open to its acerbic, artsy charms. Thank you for introducing me to this Malx!


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## Mandryka

Re Kurtag's Moments Musicaux Enthusiast famously said this


Enthusiast said:


> it is a brief work made up of contrasting very short pieces so there is no great profundity but its freshness is more than welcome in a day's listening.


And this



Enthusiast said:


> I was more concerned to say for for me the work is a delightful mix of little sound pictures, beautifully and elegantly painted.


And I wonder if he'd say the same about Roberto Gerhard's second quartet?


----------



## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Re Kurtag's Moments Musicaux Enthusiast famously said this
> 
> And this
> 
> And I wonder if he'd say the same about Roberto Gerhard's second quartet?


It sounds like you mean "infamously"? But, whatever: I described what I heard and what I still hear with that Kurtag piece. Some took it as putting the piece down but I still can't see why. It is a piece I think very highly of.

As I am in the room there seemed no need to talk of me as a known but absent acquaintance. Gerhard is new to me and I found the 2nd quartet, more intense than elegant, so I doubt I will say the same thing about it when I come to write my impressions.


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## Mandryka

The reason I brought it up is that I'm interested in whether the Gerhard is just a rag bag of disconnected studies for quartet, thrown together and given a collective opus number. Or whether there's something more than that which makes it into a single work.


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## starthrower

I enjoyed the Gerhard. Check out his symphonies too if you're new to his music. No.3 by the BBC Symphony is awesome!


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> The reason I brought it up is that I'm interested in whether the Gerhard is just a rag bag of disconnected studies for quartet, thrown together and given a collective opus number. Or whether there's something more than that which makes it into a single work.


I think the short movements do flow into each other. The whole thing could be considered as being in one movement.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I really love this Gerhard piece! Listening right now to the Kreutzer Quartet recording. One can tell there was great intelligence, concentration, and rigor expended by the composer into crafting this piece - the spectrum of sonic color is wonderful. The short, economical length is excellent as well. It sorts of reminds me of a cross between the Kurtág quartet in the constantly shifting moods and ideas, and the Ginastera in the brilliant rhythmic vitality in the faster sections. Another fantastic choice for this thread that has opened my ears to so many different potentials for the medium of the humble string quartet.

As long as I'm on this thread, might as well post the new schedule of nominators for the next three weeks. This week will be *BlackAdderLXX*, and then our two new participants. If no one else joins by the 16th, we'll go back to the top of the order and cycle back.

07/26-08/02: BlackAdderLXX
08/02-08/09: starthrower
08/09-08/16: annaw

_On standby (will be added back into the rotation once they make an appearance in the thread)_
Euler
MissKittysMom
Vicente


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## annaw

I just listened to Gerhard's 2nd SQ as well (Arditti). This quartet is very interesting to listen to (I particularly like the last "movement") and I find it fairly easily approachable even though I haven't quite warmed up to the modern sonic idiom Gerhard uses. One can even hear that he was acquainted with Schoenberg. I like such works as they help a lot with getting better acquainted with music I'm generally not so comfortable with.


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## Knorf

I know Gerhard from having become enamored of his excellent symphonies a couple decades ago. He's certainly a really interesting composer! I plan to get the quartet no. 2 in for a listen tomorrow; it's new rep. for me.


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## Simplicissimus

I’ve listened to the Gerhard SQ No. 2 many times now and I definitely like it. Although its dissonance generally has the portentous quality that I think of as “alien spaceship landing film music,” it is not pretentious and OTT (as I find some similar contemporary music). It has a lot of surprising and interesting tone colors and I find it rhythmically very engaging, also in the sense more broadly of the temporal spacing within the whole and the relationships among the parts. Gerhard really does get me to experience some interesting sensations of the passage of time. I agree with ACB’s comparisons of this piece with aspects of Kurtág and Ginastera. What an interesting and rewarding listening experience!


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## Iota

I've heard the Gerhard a few times now, a piece that has many arresting moments and explorations of mood and momentum, and I like it and find it consistently engaging. 
But it has not yet quite formed for me into a comprehensible whole, or a set of parts that settle together in my mind, even though it radiates the strong potential of doing so, and is an example of a piece I can find engaging without the need to feel an overarching unity. 

Some pieces could of course be intended to resist piecing together, or are deliberately misfitting parts placed together for expressive purposes (though seeing that in a piece can ironically perhaps make them seem to fit together), but I've not yet quite reached any of those points with this piece so far.

Very glad to have been introduced to it though, and will be revisiting.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

BlackAdder appears to be taking a brief leave of absence, so if he doesn’t show up by later today would annaw or starthrower be willing to step in with an emergency pick for next week? Thanks!


----------



## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> BlackAdder appears to be taking a brief leave of absence, so if he doesn't show up by later today would annaw or starthrower be willing to step in with an emergency pick for next week? Thanks!


I can do it, but Starthrower is before me in the original list. If he wants to go before, it's totally okay. I have no difference at all .


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> BlackAdder appears to be taking a brief leave of absence, so if he doesn't show up by later today would annaw or starthrower be willing to step in with an emergency pick for next week? Thanks!


Nope. I'm here. I just got your PM. For some reason I thought it was going to be a couple of weeks before it was my pick. I have a couple of ideas, but I'll need a couple of hours to get it together. Good?


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## Knorf

I listened to the Gerhard Second Quartet a few times. In terms of the trajectory of his career and style, this quartet reminds me most of his Third Symphony, which is my favorite among his four, even though it came much later, in fact early 40 years later (as all his symphonies did.) Maybe it's the single-movement design with multiple, slightly episodic subsections, although he did that often. I guess I can't quite put my finger on why, and I admit could be barking up the wrong tree entirely. 

I think it's a brilliant piece, and one I'll need to return to again later. It's a good piece to use in refuting the canard that twelve-tone music means "emotionless" music! It's clearly not as overtly Romantic as Berg and Schönberg, but it is passionate and expressive, I found, not to mention very colorful. 

For me, the form held together just fine, as someone said in Mahler 3 thread, I "can hear the end in the beginning." The single-movement form indeed borders on the episodic, but for me the overall shape and degree of interconnectedness amidst contrast is convincing. 

Bottom line: I've rated Gerhard for years on the strength of his mature symphonic output, and am gratified to hear no less quality in his much earlier chamber music!


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Picking a work was harder than I thought it would be. My first choices were likely too pedestrian for this group and a couple I was interested in lacked the variety in recordings that make this group fun for me. But after some thoughtful consideration I settled on *Grieg: String Quartet in G minor, op. 27.* This is a new work to me (like most CM in general) and I have lately become enamored with Grieg's music. This quartet is lovely and I look forward to listening to different recordings of it this week. Speaking of...here's Trout's list:

1. Budapest String Quartet (1937)
2. Emerson String Quartet (2004)
3. New Helsinki Quartet (1997)
4. Petersen Quartet (1993)
5. Hagen Quartet (2011)
6. Mørk, Sigerland, Sponberg, Tomter (2000)
7. Oslo String Quartet (1993)
8. Chilingirian Quartet (1998)
9. Engegård Quartet (2015)
10. Shanghai Quartet (1993)

Here's the Emerson on YouTube

















Here's some background that I found on Earsense.org


> Edvard Grieg produced only one complete mature string quartet, the String Quartet in g minor, Op. 27 dating from 1878 when he was 35. The historical record indicates that it was a challenge for Grieg, a composer who was perhaps more accustomed to writing in smaller forms such as his celebrated art songs and Romantic piano miniatures. Yet his remains one of the most original and influential string quartets of the late 19th century, approximately contemporaneous with the first important quartets from Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Borodin and Dvořák. It was written in the same year as César Franck's piano quartet with which it shares some prominent elements of innovative cyclic design. Grieg's quartet even managed to impress the aloof Debussy who, fifteen years later wrote his only quartet in the same key, with more than a few striking similarities.
> Like many composers (notably Schubert, Mendelsohn and Shostakovich), Grieg borrows from his own music for the main theme of the quartet: a portion of his somber song Spillamæd (Minstrels). The icy theme is announced in unison by the quartet right at the beginning, the emphatic slow introductory andante before the bristling allegro. Almost all of the musical material in the first movement is derived from it including several creative variations of the full theme itself in a wide range of expression and affect. There are at least eight clear permutations for the listener's delightful discovery. But like the cyclic designs of Franck and, later, Debussy, the theme extends beyond the bounds of the first movement to obliquely influence the second, reappear in the third and frame the fourth including a nearly literal restatement of the quartet's beginning just before the final conclusion. Though the complete work comprises a four-movement design with a great variety of music, it is fused together with a rare artistic unity.
> 
> One of the most striking aspects of Grieg's quartet is the distinctive way he writes for the string ensemble, an inseparable combination of texture and color resulting in a consistently unique quartet sound. On one hand, Grieg scores thick sections of unison sounds encroaching on the orchestral with double, triple and even quadruple stops simultaneously in all parts. Were this the only texture Grieg used, one might be tempted to agree with those who find the quartet rather un-quartet-like. But Grieg employs a diversity of other textures including skillful counterpoint, a fluid exchange of voice-leading across all four instruments and a variety of novel sounds that he may well have borrowed from Norwegian folk music for fiddle. If the stormy first movement emphasizes the vast orchestral unity of the strings, the middle movements highlight the delicate spaciousness of individual instruments in diverse combinations. The nimble finale and numerous sections throughout the quartet have an etched clarity of remarkable lightness and effervescence. It is precisely the juxtaposition of all these textures within one work that makes Grieg's music a revelation of new possibilities. Like Debussy, Grieg seemed to wholly re-imagine how to use a quartet. Grieg was the first to do so.
> 
> Fresh in the way it sounds, Grieg's quartet is equally striking in the way it moves. The music is energized with astonishing rhythmic vitality and the constant impulse to dance. The second movement Romanze begins with a gently swaying waltz that accelerates into an intoxicating whirl around the dance floor with the intensity of a manic dervish. This is but a tentative warm-up for the intricate motions of the third movement Intermezzo, a scherzo with the rustic spice of a festival dance under the midnight sun. The finale sustains and ultimately surpasses this energetic frolic with its saltarello, a leaping dance of Italian origin dating back to the Middle Ages. Grieg's absorption of Nordic folk dances such as the springdans and haller is evident here along with heavy syncopations and cross-rhythms in an unbridled, lyrical frenzy framed by the sober soundposts of the motto theme on either side.
> 
> Grieg's musical language was progressive for its time particularly within the generally conservative genre of the string quartet. Highly chromatic with rich harmonies and bold modulations, the music explores modal and pentatonic scales with an exotic folk flavor leading the vanguard of new music invading the traditions of Western Europe. Though Grieg studied in Leipzig using Mendelssohn and Schumann as his first models, he ultimately developed his own unique musical voice perhaps best illustrated by this inspired and passionate string quartet, a harbinger of musical developments towards the end of the century. Grieg would try his hand with the string quartet once more some ten years later, but his efforts produced only two movements and rough sketches for the rest of a quartet in F major. Though incomplete, these continue to demonstrate Grieg's innovative approach with many of the same characteristics. Though leaving us wanting, it is enough for us to marvel. No great cycle of quartets here, just a single finished work of great originality, historical significance and ravishing musical delight.


----------



## Knorf

Grieg! Nice choice! I'm 95% sure I've heard it before, but it's been years and years, and I certainly don't "know it."


----------



## Simplicissimus

I’m streaming a recording by the Guarneri Quartet released in 1991 by Philips. Not on Trout’s list, but I like the Guarneris. I’m loving this work.


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## Knorf

Oh, dear, I was way off about the date of Gerhard's Second Quartet! I should have paid more attention. It's 1962, just after the Third Symphony! I dug a little deeper, and I figured out more of why I heard correspondences between the Third Symphony, which I became acquainted with over twenty years ago, and the Second Quartet, which is new to me as of this week.

First of all, while they're both in one movement, they're also both divided into seven linked sections, over which a kind of rondo principle is in effect. Listening to them back to back, there are definite correspondences of gesture and motivic ideas, concern with the sensation of passing time, and a similar overall, very personal affect. 

The Third Symphony was initially inspired by seeing a sunrise from an airplane at 30,000'. Something of this is suspended over to the Second Quartet. In digging around for words, I found I was not alone in noticing a connection. Garry Higginson wrote in his review on MusicWeb, "It’s as if these sounds were still in his head when composing the single movement Second Quartet."

Anyway, to anyone who liked the Second Quartet, I definitely recommend investigating the Third Symphony.


----------



## Merl

Nice choice with the Grieg. I'm away this week so I'll only be able to listen to a few recordings but when I get back I'll have a binge as there's stacks out there and I have a few at home.


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## 20centrfuge

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Picking a work was harder than I thought it would be. My first choices were likely too pedestrian for this group...


I felt the same way when I was picking nomination. But on the other hand, I think even the most well known quartets are worth visiting, re-visiting, and discussing. For example, I was super happy to have had the opportunity to have revisited the Ravel work that was submitted recently, even though I knew the work fairly well.


----------



## Merl

I tried these two recordings of the Grieg yesterday but neither impressed much. Not too bad but I've heard and own way better.


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## sbmonty

Great pick. I was thinking I would choose this one sometime down the road. These are the two I own. The Meccore is a very thrilling account.


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

sbmonty said:


> Great pick. I was thinking I would choose this one sometime down the road. These are the two I own. The Meccore is a very thrilling account.


I'll have to check it out. I'm pretty new to this work but I've found it interesting so far.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> View attachment 140025


This cover cracks me up for some reason. It looks like all of them were forced to smile at gunpoint or something.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Cool, piece had me with the C minor add 9 in the intro


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## Bwv 1080

Also are all the double-stops an evocation of Hardanger Fiddling? Although most of that music is major key (or Lydian mode!) dances, it is mostly all double and triple stops on an 8 or 9 string fiddle with a flatter neck:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Listening to the Emersons right now. Grieg is a composer that I have no strong feelings toward, he’s a perfectly genial and uncomplicated tunesmith who never fails to please even if I do sometimes feel like his music is lacking in substance. This quartet is just bursting with gorgeous melodies, and is an absolute delight to hear! I especially like the folksy energy of the second half - makes me want to join in on a romping peasant party. I’ve mentioned before that I’m not a fan of the Emersons because I can find them to be too consciously striving for effect with harsh attacks and thick vibrato. It doesn’t sound like natural, spontaneous playing to me. But I think that approach really works in the Grieg where they turn in a scintillating performance in all aspects, and the quality of their playing is undeniably virtuosic. Probably my favorite Emerson recording to date. 

I’ll definitely have to check out that 1937 Budapest recording that heads Trout’s list. I sometimes have a lower tolerance of old sound for string quartets because of the wiry sound of the instruments, but it’s something I can definitely look past if the performance is top-notch. I would also like to hear Petersen, New Helsinki, and Guarneri. Something tells me that this is a quartet with many interpretive possibilities.


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## Merl

Had a listen to a few more over the past few days.

*Guarneri* - Really make this one dance. Very enjoyable performance with a terrific first movement. One of my faves up to now. 
*Petersen* - Solid and thickly textured but I'm not sure about the sound, that I found a little oddly-balanced and reverberant. 
*Auryn* - I'm a big fan of the Auryns in most of their SQ performances but the stop-start nature of this account (esp 1st movement) is annoying for me. Shame as I like their darker take on the piece but momentum is constantly lost. Excellent sound.
*Mork et al *- those delicate 'bouncing' strings and pizzicato in the Intermezzo are gorgeous. A terrific recording, lavishly played and realised. That 3rd movement is a killer.
*Oslo* - robust account and one of the first I bought. Naxos turned in a really gutsy soundstage for this one and the Oslos really accentuates Grieg's chordal harmonies. Still a tough one to beat.
*Kontra* - quite convincing but for BIS I was disappointed with the distant sound (but not the performance). There are better. 
*Engegard* - sorry for the late inclusion but I've just finished listening to this fleet, passionate and superbly played account. The intermezzo is performed with more fervour and better rhythm than the way Mork and Co. knock it out. This is a keeper.

Still a lot to listen to yet. I'll cram a few in tomorrow


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## Enthusiast

I listened to the Emersons today along with the rest of their record (I do like the Sibelius work a lot). As usual I enjoyed it but I am not sure I am up for listening to lots of accounts: it just isn't that kind of work for me. I could not sum up my opinion of composer and work better than Allegro Con Brio did:



> he's a perfectly genial and uncomplicated tunesmith who never fails to please even if I do sometimes feel like his music is lacking in substance. This quartet is just bursting with gorgeous melodies, and is an absolute delight to hear!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Listening to the Emersons right now. Grieg is a composer that I have no strong feelings toward, he's a perfectly genial and uncomplicated tunesmith who never fails to please even if I do sometimes feel like his music is lacking in substance. This quartet is just bursting with gorgeous melodies, and is an absolute delight to hear! I especially like the folksy energy of the second half - makes me want to join in on a romping peasant party. I've mentioned before that I'm not a fan of the Emersons because I can find them to be too consciously striving for effect with harsh attacks and thick vibrato. It doesn't sound like natural, spontaneous playing to me. But I think that approach really works in the Grieg where they turn in a scintillating performance in all aspects, and the quality of their playing is undeniably virtuosic. Probably my favorite Emerson recording to date.
> .


Just listened to the *Emersons* late last night and I totally agree, ACB, that this could be one of their finest recordings. Truly excellent performance. They tick all the boxes and play the hell out of it, capturing all those lovely folksy rhythms very successfully. Another winner.

I tried the 1937 *Budapest* recording earlier and it stands up quite well for such an old recording with little of that awful wiryness that blights historic string recordings. I don't think I'd listen to it much as it's a bit rough in places but you can't fault the conviction of the Budapest players and it's an idiomatic and thoroughly engaging reading but with better-sounding newer recordings I'd be hard-pushed to rank it as highly as Trout but it is a very impressive account. Next up the Meccores......


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## Merl

Crammed in three this morning. The *Sibelius Quartet* are polished and well recorded but miss a bit of heft. The *Vertavos* on Simax are beautifully elegiac and revel in the textures but sometimes I'd like a bit more fleetness (and its a closely-miked performance). The *Meccores* get a great balance between both of these and are aided by a superb recorded sound. The finale is sometimes darker and more lyrical than the others reviewed here in their hands and comes off exceptionally well . Very little to complain about, tbh. I said three but I've just finished it I did squeeze in the *Shanghai*'s account which is really well played and warm but the homogenised, bass-heavy sound was not at all to my liking. Shame, as I liked their fleeter rhythms and interplay a lot but Delos don't do them any favours with that thick sound.


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## Iota

I found the folky sections of this music were the ones that most appealed to me, the last two movements were my preferred ones. I liked the little canonical interplays between voices e.g in the Intermezzo.

I thought I heard a couple of echoes from other Grieg works, e.g in the 1st movement, a couple of seconds of music sound as if they've been lifted directly from the last movement of the piano concerto. And a moment in the 4th movement Saltarello, felt like it was going to turn the corner into the Hall of the Mountain King. Broadly speaking, I enjoyed the unbridled bits of this music most.


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## Merl

This morning and last night's Grieg recordings...

*Amphion* - Never heard of this lot and they play an immensely entertaining account. Lively, buoyant and spirited.
*New Helsinki* - no wonder Trout rated this so highly. Its a superb performance. Lots of drive and charisma plus a lovely deep, rich sound. One of the best if not the best I've heard up to now.
*Bellus* - obviously a very talented quartet who play immaculately together but the slower interpretation, excessive use of vibrato and dry acoustic don't help. Yet even with all this going against it it's a very impressive reading and some will love this. 
*Poseidon* - a very hard-hitting release. Lots of power and brisk. The subtler, darker moments could maybe do with a bit more gravitas but when they get a head of steam up this is an impressive if volatile disc. 
*Bridge SQ* - another absolute barnstormer that's up there with the New Helsinki recording. Powerful, exquisitely performed and just plain terrific.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I got the chance to hear the 1937 Budapest (not on streaming as far as I can tell), and it's easy to hear why it's on top of Trout's list. This is the kind of quartet playing where you can tell the players are functioning as a truly intimate ensemble, not just playing but breathing together. There is spontaneity, beauty, passion, and a sense that the players are listening to each other. It sounds like eavesdropping on music-making in someone's house on a pleasant evening. Masterful! However there are a couple more modern ones I really want to sample still and I will do so tomorrow.

And the weekly reminder - next week's choice will go to *starthrower*.


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## jurianbai

I subscribed to Brilliant Classics youtube channel. They upload amazing string quartet from Classical era which I loved.

Sgambati Piano Quintet and String quartet :





Viotti's and many others


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## Allegro Con Brio

jurianbai said:


> I subscribed to Brilliant Classics youtube channel. They upload amazing string quartet from Classical era which I loved.
> 
> Sgambati Piano Quintet and String quartet :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Viotti's and many others


Looks interesting Would you like to be added to the list to nominate a quartet - this one or any other?


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## starthrower

Thanks for the reminder. I have been listening to several works since last night and this morning and I'll decide on a piece by tomorrow night so I can make a post.


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## Merl

Squeezed in a few full performances today of the Grieg which were...

*Norwegian SQ* - nice performance which captured the folksy rhythms well. Very enjoyable.
*Copenhagen* - recorded back in the 60s this still sounds petty fresh. The first movement is particularly well-realised. Another very capable account.

I still have the Hagens and the Chilingirians to try but I have them at home so I've gotta wait till I get home on Sunday to round these all up. It's been great listening to all these recordings. I love this SQ.


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## Malx

Finally got around to listening to a couple of recordings via Qobuz - I must say this quartet turned out to be a pleasant surprise, for some reason I expected something less inspired from Grieg. What he does do well is to mix in the folk elements without at anytime making the piece sound parochial.
I listened to the Emerson and Engegard recordings and for me the Engegard seemed to have a bit more feel for the piece.
A very nice quartet.


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## sbmonty

I enjoyed this quartet very much. Numerous listens over the week. Good choice!


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## starthrower

I'm posting this now before I change my mind again. My only criteria for choosing the quartet no.1 by Szymanowski is that I think it's beautiful music with a modern sound which has great appeal for me as a listener. And I love the Schoenberg Quartet's recording on Chandos.

Composed in 1917 for which Szymanowski was awarded a cash prize. The quartet's first public performance took place on March 7, 1924 by the Warsaw Philharmonic Quartet. It is notable for its "polytonal" third movement, which contains four key signatures in its written four parts: the first violin with 3 sharps, the second violin with 6 sharps, the viola with 3 flats, and the cello with no flats or sharps.


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## starthrower




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## Allegro Con Brio

Awesome! Szymanowski is a composer I’ve struggled a bit with, but I’ve started to appreciate his music a bit more lately with the two beautiful violin concerti and the haunting Stabat Mater.


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## starthrower

Also recommended is his chamber music for violin and piano which for me contains a depth and beauty that moves me as a listener. I have the set on Brilliant Classics.


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## Simplicissimus

Regarding the Grieg SQ in G In G Minor, Op. 27: I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this work and I can say that’s it now among my favorite SQs. I was busy over the past week so I only had time to listen three times to a single recording, the Guarneri Quartet.

I found this an easy piece of music to listen to, but by no means lacking in substance and ideas. Throughout, I found the chords beautiful and evocative, the counterpoint tasteful, and the rhythms exciting. This music strikes me as pure Grieg, not at all derivative. For me, it takes its place easily alongside his works that I’ve listened to for years - the piano concerto, Holberg Site, Peer Gynt Suites, and Lyric Pieces. After listening to some more recordings on my streaming service, and benefiting from Merl’s and others’ comments, I think I will acquire this SQ on CD for my collection.


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## calvinpv

starthrower said:


> I'm posting this now before I change my mind again. My only criteria for choosing the quartet no.1 by Szymanowski is that I think it's beautiful music with a modern sound which has great appeal for me as a listener. And I love the Schoenberg Quartet's recording on Chandos.
> 
> Composed in 1917 for which Szymanowski was awarded a cash prize. The quartet's first public performance took place on March 7, 1924 by the Warsaw Philharmonic Quartet. It is notable for its "polytonal" third movement, which contains four key signatures in its written four parts: the first violin with 3 sharps, the second violin with 6 sharps, the viola with 3 flats, and the cello with no flats or sharps.


This is one of the great quartets of the early 20th century, and yes, the Schoenberg Quartet recording is fantastic. I've probably listened to it a few dozen times over the years. Great choice.


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## jurianbai

Just watch attaca quartet performing Haydn Op.74/1 in C.. live stream


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## sbmonty

Haven't heard this composition before. I'll start with this one. Streaming from Naxos.


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## Simplicissimus

Szymanowski SQ No. 1, Op. 37 - great choice! I don't know this work and have only heard anything by Szymanowski a few times on the radio, so I'm ready to discover a composer who is new to me. There aren't many recordings to choose from on my streaming service. I've chosen what seems to be the newest one available, a 2007 release on Chandos by the Schoenberg Quartet.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I ended up goi g out of town unexpectedly mid week so my plans for listening to the Greig were somewhat disrupted. I did get to listen several times and I love this work. I think my favorites were the Engegard and Emerson.


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## Merl

I'll round my Grieg listening up later as I've just got back from my holiday. Great new choice too. I love the Szymanowski so I'll post my thoughts on that later and comment on the recordings I have.

Edit:Here's my final thoughts on recordings of the Grieg quartet.

*Capable*
David Oistrakh SQ, Raphael, Kontra, Budapest (sorry I can't get past the sound - the same goes for their 1956 remake), Shanghai.

*Impressive*
Auryn
Norwegian
Copenhagen
Sibelius
Vertavo
Bellus

*Excellent - well worth investing in*
Mork et al
Poseidon
Meccores
Amphion
Oslo
Petersen
Guarneri
Chilingirian

*The Dog's B*llocks - all terrific performances*

These are all crackers and well worth the outlay.

New Helsinki
Engegard
Emerson
Hagen






























*My top choice*

_Bridge SQ_
Everything about this recording is right. It's fleet of foot, incredibly well-played, brilliantly phrased, excellently recorded, propusive, gritty, strong, dark, lyrical and feels exactly right. I love it. I'd happily take one from the 'DB' list too but this one has everything I like about the others rolled into one amazing performance. Some may prefer others but give this a listen. It's a killer.









....next up, Szymanowski.......


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wow, this is a great quartet! Just listened to starthrower's recommended recording of the Schoenberg Quartet. It is much more "romantic" sounding than I was expecting from Szymanowski; so luscious and lyrical throughout. Some of it actually reminded me of _Tristan und Isolde_, while some sounds on the verge of Schoenberg. It's compact and listenable overall. I love it. Here's some more info from AllMusic that I found interesting:
_
The earlier half of Szymanowski's career saw him adopt the hot-blooded, erotic romanticism of Scriabin and take an interest in music of the Near East. However, by the time World War I ended, he had shifted to a much less lush, harmonically harder-edged, yet more tonal, musical language. Philosophically, Szymanowski during the same period lost his interest in the ego-driven Romanticism of Wagner, Richard Strauss, and Nietzsche. And personally his life changed drastically, as well: Polish independence and Communist seizure of his family property in the Ukraine required him, for the first time, to make his entire living as a musician, composer, and teacher.

The quartet is in three movements and totals a bit less than 20 minutes. Szymanowski had intended a four-movement work ending with a fully fugal final movement, but he dropped the final movement and moved the scherzo (which does have a fugato section) from second to final position. The first and longest movement -- nearly half the length of the quartet as published -- is in a typical sonata-allegro form with a slow introduction. Its main expression markings are Lento assai; Allegro moderato. The opening slow section is close to the exotic, perfumed style of Szymanowski's earlier music; its melody has modal elements. The fast main body of the movement is Scriabinesque in its chromaticism, in the passionate nature of its main themes, and in the way the composer works them out. Despite the depth and passion of the music, the actual writing for quartet is entirely appropriate to the chamber ensemble: the music retains the clarity, transparency, and conversational nature of the greatest quartets.

The second movement, Andantino semplice, in modo d'una canzone, is, for a considerable stretch, in the form of a lyric melody for the first violin, with the remaining instruments forming a trio to accompany it. The last half of the expression marking means "in the style of a song," and that is an apt description of the movement up until the contrasting central section, which is sweet and mysterious at the same time. The return of the main melody does not dispel this new emotional quality, which is not resolved as the opening of the concluding movement intrudes.

This movement, Scherzando alla burlesca: vivace non troppo, begins with a quiet unison passage, then another unison -- loud this time -- that throws the movement into fast motion. There is a fugal passage, but this is interrupted by a sardonic waltz whose surface banality anticipates similar moments in Shostakovich's music. The music ends quietly, and perhaps just a bit anticlimactically, as the opening part of the quartet seems to set up a need for the larger-scale finale Szymanowski originally intended._


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## Merl

That first movement is lovely, isn't it, ACB? Love the pizzicatos in the 3rd (but you know I'm a sucker for pizzicato).


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## Merl

A bit more info on the Szymanowski....

_"Szymanowski's String Quartet No 1 in C major Op 37 was written in 1917, and its composition was drastically interrupted by the outbreak of the Russian Revolution in October (it was finally performed for the first time in 1924). None of this is apparent in the piece, however, which together with the immediately preceding Piano Sonata No 3 marks the flowering of a clear-and refined, as well as vigorous-classicizing impulse in Szymanowski's music. The tonally framed Lento assai puts forward an intensely post-Wagnerian, French-influenced lyricism in the guise of a slow introduction. The idiom here beautifully balances enriched diatonic harmony with chromatic voice-leading. The Allegro moderato, following continuously without a break, marks the beginning of a fluid and at times pungently dramatic sonata movement which arrives at a taut and original balance of elements. It shows great deftness in weaving together a range of different materials in different textures to create a sonata pattern that has a powerfully episodic and gestural, as well as thematic, structure. Characteristically for the composer, there are rapid swings of mood and tempo. The fascinating intensifying passage marked scherzando alla burlesca stands somewhat as a free contrasting development, centrally placed within the movement. It is almost an independent episode, showing how sonata functions may be freely reinterpreted with wit and fantasy, yet still to serious purpose. In context, it is breathtaking.

The songlike slow movement in E major ('in modo d'una canzone') shows just how vividly the composer could present even his most diatonic melody, with a textural and harmonic light and shade that somehow, for all the passing moments of a darker and more poignant colour, never obscure the beautifully simple lyric thread of the movement as a whole. The classicizing impulse is here well caught: expressed with feeling and full of subtlety, without a hint of dryness. The finale has wit and drive, as well as thematic resource, and is characterized by an almost boisterous energy. This reflects the fact that it was originally written as the scherzo of a four-movement work; but Szymanowski finally decided, as late as 1924-5, that it should stand as the finale of a three-movement quartet. After an arresting 'Beethovenian' opening gesture, it presents an unassuming diatonic fugal theme in 3/4 on successive entries each a minor third apart from the last (C-E flat-F sharp-A). This then gives the layered 'contrapuntal harmony' something of the feel of an axial polymodality, à la Bartók. The movement is concise yet offers a succession of contrasting episodes of great rhythmic and textural variety. We may observe that the idea of fugue is something of a conceit here (remembering that this was at first a scherzo): the composer largely ignores the conventions of fugal layout in favour of episodic variation and rhythmic development. New accompaniments and new counterpoints are constantly interjected, serving to project, often with considerable force, the varied lineaments of the theme. The course of the final peroration begins fast and exhilarating; but the music unexpectedly winds down, ending quietly with a witty pizzicato cadence into C major."_


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## starthrower

The Schoenberg Quartet has a way of injecting a romantic feeling into the works they perform and I love this. They have such a warm sound. I need to get busy and pick up their Berg and Webern discs while they are still in print. I bought their Arnold Schoenberg box last December.


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## Merl

I've listened to the Goldner, Carmina, Schoenberg and Meccore accounts of the SQ up to now and all are very good but the Meccore has a touch more vitality, is better played and recorded up to now. The Schoenberg is a close 2nd but I wouldn't thumb my nose at any of these. All have their plus points. I'll go to a few versions I own tomorrow.


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## Simplicissimus

I like the Szymanowski SQ No. 1 a lot overall. I’ve listened three times to the Schoenberg Quartet’s recording and will turn today to recordings by the three other ensembles available on my service: Goldner, Silesian, and Quartetto Prometeo.

The first and second movements are full of rich and beautiful chords. The rhythms are just brilliant and the interplay among the parts is fascinating. The melodic themes I find compelling. However, I find the third movement harsh and strident in many places. One critic I read said that the Schoenberg Quartet’s first violin has “intonation problems” in this recording. Maybe it’s the power of suggestion working on me, but I hear a more sibilant and squeaky tone in that part than I would like. Great playing overall, though.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Szymanowski is quickly becoming a favorite quartet of mine. Such rich, haunting, expressive harmonies! I do agree with Simplicissimus that the finale is maybe a bit disappointing compared to the first two movements but it does the job nicely. Of the two I've heard I like the Goldner Quartet on Naxos a bit better than the Schoenberg for their fuller tone.

Next week's nomination will go to *annaw*, then, unless we have anyone else step up by then, we've come to the end of this cycle of nominators. I was planning on just going back to the top of the order, which would mean starting with me and proceeding back through. If anyone else has any other ideas on how to approach this, let me know, but otherwise I think that will work nicely.


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## Merl

Yeah, I agree with ACB and Simply that the last movement is the weakest (I've always felt that) but it's a very good SQ nonetheless. I found a few more recordings on streaming services today so I listened to the Prometeo, Carmina and Silesian recordings. The Prometeo is a fine account if a little understated. The Silesian is better and very impressive, only let down by the recorded sound which I find a little congested but it's a great performance. The biggest shock, for me was the Carmina account. I'd never heard this one but had heard great things about it (it won a few prestigious awards). I was surprised on listening that the Carminas were a little unengaging, especially in the 3rd movement. Yes they play beautifully but I found the recording a bit homogenised. A few more of my recordings to listen to tomorrow and then I'm done with this lovely quartet.


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## annaw

It took me quite long to choose a quartet but I decided to go with *Carl Nielsen: String Quartet No. 3 in E flat major, Op. 14, FS 23*. Nielsen's is quite different from his fellow Scandinavian, Sibelius. Nielsen's compositions are sometimes a bit more uplifting and outgoing in their nature and have more modernist traits. I like to think that the difference between Nielsen's and Sibelius's style is a good representation of the difference between more relaxed Danes and introverted Finns (I'm half Finn - I'm allowed to say such things :lol. The 3rd quartet reflects the very energetic nature of his compositional style and is very witty throughout. He wrote a wonderful contrapuntal section in the first movement and a marvellous Andante sostenuto following it. It's also connected with a rather unfortunate incident which Nielsen recalled many years later in one article:



> I had composed a string quartet. The first two movements had already been copied by the music copyist; I had tried them out with my comrades, and we agreed that it was a work with which I had made a great effort. Now I also had the last two movements finished, so packed it all into a large roll, took my bike and set off along Gothersgade towards Nørrevold, where the music copyist lived. When I got to Rosenborg Brøndanstalt, I saw a vehicle with two horses, one of which had fallen over and lay floundering with its legs in over the pavement. The driver looked very helpless, as the horse had ended up lying in a strange lopsided position. Since as a young man I had worked with horses and had often myself been a driver, I jumped off my bike, put it up against the Brøndanstalt, pressed my music roll into the hands of a boy who was standing in the crowd, and asked him to hold it for a moment. It was only the work of a couple of minutes to cut one of the traces of the cart over, get a horse blanket under the forelegs of the horse and get it up on its legs; but when I got back the boy had vanished, probably into the Vognmagergade area, with my great work. I rode home in despair and told my wife about my loss. Then she got the idea that we should go up into the neighbourhood and arouse some attention about the matter among the young people of the streets, and in time we succeeded in gathering a very large crowd to whom we announced that whoever could find the boy with the roll of music would get a large reward [...] I never got my work back, but had to reconstruct it laboriously from various notes and sketches and from memory.


Two early reviews:
"The E flat major quartet and its indisputable mastery, his greatest triumph in this music genre, powerful and manly, profoundly poetic, gracefully pastoral, courageously ambitious." and "The instruments are given independent treatment throughout; everywhere life prevails, although the melodic line and phrasing exhibit great self-will. The clearest example of this is the slow movement with its fountain of melody and joyful inwardness. When it comes to richness of ideas the first movement is probably the finest. As far as the musical ideas are concerned, the last movement is not wholly successful, although in its form it exhibits both succinctness and mastery. At all events the work is noteworthy."

There are also a few recordings of the work:

1. Kontra Quartet (BIS)
2. Oslo String Quartet (Naxos)
3. Danish String Quartet
4. Young Danish String Quartet

I know it's a bit early so don't be bothered with it this week! I'm now finally going to listen to Szymanowski as well as I'm on a ship to Finland to, among other things, visit Sibelius's home Ainola.


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## Malx

I've listened to the Schoenbergs' recording that I have in my collection a few times during the week and I concur with a lot of what has been said before - this is a quartet I have liked for a long time, and I have enjoyed revisiting this week, a good choice.
I have been distracted with other things, plus other musical priorities this week so haven't branched out and sampled other recordings - my loss I'm sure, but I am happy enough with the Schoenbergs' recording.


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## Enthusiast

I had the Camerata Quartet recording and am not sure how it compares with others. I have listened to the Schoenberg Quartet that was linked to and found it more lush ... but the lushness of Szymanowski is often something I have mixed feelings about. I sometimes wish for a little more "edge" (as one gets from Scriabin) so I am sticking with the Camerata, which I have always enjoyed. I don't know if it is the performance but I don't find the last movement weaker than the rest, either. It gives the work some muscle and sinew.


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Some of it actually reminded me of _Tristan und Isolde_


I agree, the first movement certainly felt Tristan-inflected to me too, and also some of the more intense moments recalled very much for me the Adagio of Mahler 10.

I listened to the Schoenberg and Silesian Quartets and found I preferred the Silesian for its greater clarity. I like the last movement and the implied ellipsis at the end, though I must admit it does feel kind of incomplete. Sibelius also sometimes just seems to stop in mid-sentence to great effect I think, though for whatever reason, his music never sounds incomplete to my ears.

Anyway very good to hear this quartet, which is another I hadn't heard before.


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## Allegro Con Brio

annaw said:


> I'm on a ship to Finland to, among other things, visit Sibelius's home Ainola.


SO JEALOUS! One of my bucket list destinations. Stay safe and have fun


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## Merl

annaw said:


> There are also a few recordings of the work:
> 
> 1. Kontra Quartet (BIS)
> 2. Oslo String Quartet (Naxos)
> 3. Danish String Quartet
> 4. Young Danish String Quartet


There's also a few other older recordings of the Nielsen SQ that are now OOP but worth hearing if you can... 
. 
Copenhagen Quartet (late 60s)
Carl Nielsen Quartet (late 70s DG complete set of the SQs) 
Erling Bloch Quartet (post-war mono - search 'Carl Nielsen Historic vol. 4' on Spotify)
Zapolski Quartet (Chandos 2000)


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## starthrower

I'm glad everybody is enjoying the Szymanowski quartet. I never thought of the last movement as being weak but as one post mentioned, I like pizzicato. I haven't listened to any of the other recordings. I'm not a big enough quartet enthusiast to be seeking out multiple recordings. I do own quite a few sets by various composers so if this thread keeps going I can contribute something else. I'd be interested in the feedback on some other quartets I have in mind.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> There's also a few other older recordings of the Nielsen SQ that are now OOP but worth hearing if you can...
> .
> Copenhagen Quartet (late 60s)
> Carl Nielsen Quartet (late 70s DG complete set of the SQs)
> Erling Bloch Quartet (post-war mono - search 'Carl Nielsen Historic vol. 4' on Spotify)
> Zapolski Quartet (Chandos 2000)


Thanks! Couldn't find these myself apparently.


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## Merl

Final batch of listens and a quick round up on the Szymanowski SQ. Of what I've heard, there's no recording I've found less than very good and a few I really like. I've also listened again to two recordings as they were listened to via my old headphones and so I relistening on my decent cans which revealed far better recordings than I first thought.

*Very Good*
Prometeo
Silesian
Carmina
Schoenberg
Camerata
Goldner

*Highly Recommended (I couldn't split these - they all have their plus points)*
Varsovia - Smoother performance but this suits the first two movements in particular.
Royal SQ - boisterous, harder attacks. With a little more subtlety it could have been better. 
Silesian - superb playing and performance but the sound has some odd balances and is a little dry.
Carmina - on relisten this is much better than I thought. Excellent soundstage and top-notch recording.

*Top choice*

*Meccore Quartet*









There was something about this recording that gripped me from start to finish. The Silesian account would have been on par with this but I dont like the sound too much on that recording. The Meccore just has it all - great sound, super performance, vital, tender, beautiful. However, these are all very self-recommending performances. Thanks ST for a great choice. Looking forward to the Nielsen this week.

Ps. There were a few recordings I didn't get to hear (eg. Maggini SQ).q


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## Simplicissimus

I’m looking forward to the Nielsen. The only recording I can find at the moment is an old one: the Erling Bloch Quartet from 1946. I read that this ensemble is the predecessor of the Danish Quartet.

But I just can’t stop listening to the Szymanowski! Noting ACB’s comment about the Goldner Quartet having fuller tone than the Schoenberg, I tried it and it really works for me. The Goldner play with quite a lot more vibrato, which gives the first two movements a wonderful “tender” feel (to borrow an apt term from Merl). I will keep trying different recordings of this gem and eventually add one to my collection.


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## Merl

I just listened to the Nielsen SQ (one I'm not familiar with) and it's a cracker. Absolutely superb. That was the Danish Quartet. I know this is gonna be a labour of love working my way thru these (the pizzicato section in the 4th movement :kiss:....ahhhh! )


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## starthrower

I'm doing the live performance.


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## Enthusiast

I have the Kontra Quartet recording of the Nielsen quartets. Our weekly quartet is a work I love.


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## starthrower

I was very impressed watching and listening to the Danish Quartet play Nielsen's 3rd. I am not familiar with his quartets although I've listened a bit on YouTube over the years. But I think this piece is wonderfully melodic and inventive. The performance by the Danish Quartet really knocked me out.


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## annaw

starthrower said:


> I was very impressed watching and listening to the Danish Quartet play Nielsen's 3rd. I am not familiar with his quartets although I've listened a bit on YouTube over the years. But I think this piece is wonderfully melodic and inventive. The performance by the Danish Quartet really knocked me out.


I was also just enjoying some bits of that video! Seeing the players play enhances my understanding of its dynamics. It's quite new discovery for me as well. I'm not sure how long it would have taken me to stumble upon Nielsen's quartets without this thread, although I'm fond of his orchestral music.

Meanwhile, I'm safe and sound back in Estonia and finally got to listen to Szymanowski's quartet properly as well. It's a great work I plan to visit again next week as I didn't really manage that this week. I listened to Meccore's recording which was beautiful and I really like the mix of late-Romantic and modernist qualities of the quartet.


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## Bwv 1080

A little late, but found this old dissertation on the Szymanowski Qt

https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/download/pdf/831/1.0097221/1


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## annaw

Bwv 1080 said:


> A little late, but found this old dissertation on the Szymanowski Qt
> 
> https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/download/pdf/831/1.0097221/1


Whew... almost 250 pages


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## Bwv 1080

annaw said:


> Whew... almost 250 pages


Yes, did not read the whole thing, but some interesting bits on the harmony - a mix of parallel non-functional triads and whole tone passages


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> .. some interesting bits on the harmony - a mix of parallel non-functional triads and whole tone passages


Just what I was going to say.... :lol:


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## Merl

Right, I've been listening to the Nielsen SQ. Before this weekend I cant say I'd ever heard Nielsen's SQs and really didn't know what to expect but it's a positive joy! I've also listened to the F Minor quartet too and that's just as enjoyable. Firstly though, a word of warning - the 2 recordings on the Dacapo label by the 'Danish Quartet' and the 'Young Danish Quartet' are one of the same! I don't know why we have two differently named sets (maybe someone can answer this) but they have identical timings and identical quartet members and recording dates. So, here's my opinions on the recordings I've heard. I've still got to hear the Carl Nielsen Quartet's OOP set on DG (if anyone gets a youtube link, etc then drop me a line).

*Average*

*Erling Bloch Quartet* - unless you're one of those people that swear that anything recorded before electricity was invented is the bees knees you probably wont rate this much. This 1946 performance is obviously from the 78 era but the string sound is terribly wiry and there's very little bass (as expected). The EBs play well enough and the rhytms are nicely sprung but this is uncompetitive when there are far better modern recordings, played better and in terrific sound.

*Good*

*Zapolski Quartet* - This OOP Chandos set is very well recorded but the Zapolskis opt for an incredibly slow and heavy approach that captures none of the joy of this quartet and kills the final movement dead. They've also taken some poetic license with phrasing (and the score?). I really didn't rate this performance but the sound is terrific. 
*Copenhagen Quartet* - Another OOP one. I did get to hear this eventually through extensive searching on youtube (it's murder to find). The Copehagens' warmly romantic approach lacks some of the depth of the others on here but it's pleasant enough.

*Excellent*

*Oslo Quartet*
This is a really impressive performance. The Oslo Quartet are a bit more rugged than their competitors and may not have their finesse but you can't fault this disc. Naxos give them a really good sound for this one and there's little between this and my top pick.
*Kontra Quartet*
Some will probably put this one above my top pick and I nearly did. The dealbreaker, though, is not the playing, which is excellent, lively and fun, but the sound which is a little bright and very reverberant. This, for me, obscures some of the details of the playing in ensemble passages. However, this is a terrific set and a certain Classics Today critic (no names) has this as his reference set and I can fully understand why.

*Top Pick*

*(Young) Danish Quartet*
Whatever theyre called this is the one I came back to the most. The recording is absolutely brilliant and drives a middle line between the boisterous bass of the Oslos and the brightness of the Kontras. THe playing throughout is uniformly stunning, especially in the finale, so much so that I grabbed this one the other day. A keeper.


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## annaw

Thanks, Merl, for an insightful post! I think, so far, Kontra might be my favourite, but I yet haven't compared the recordings to each other. I hope to start with that tomorrow.

I found an explanation about the name of The Danish String Quartet: https://danishquartet.com/category/review/

_Almost 15 years ago, the men of the Danish String Quartet - they were in their 20s, at the time, and still called themselves the "Young" Danish - said in an interview that they would need to become more mature before daring to play Beethoven's late string quartets in public._

This might be the reason, although I'm not 100% sure. Someone has probably mixed up something...


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## Iota

Just listened to Nielsen with the Young Danish Quartet (Dacapo), and really liked its youthful, adventurous character, it seems to have individuality spilling out of it. 

Many moments that caught my attention .. the pedal point ostinato coda to the 1st movement, the lovely 2nd movement, the eruption of the central Presto in the 3rd movement, and the turn-on-a-sixpence mood changes in the last movement. These stood out to me on this hearing (love that coda!), but I enjoyed it all and will definitely be returning. 

An excellent and engaging choice. :tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yes, another superb choice. I was actually expecting something more “spiky” and harmonically adventurous from Nielsen based off what I was familiar with from him, so it was somewhat surprising to hear a very traditional sounding piece. Don’t get me wrong, I love Nielsen in all his various moods but I don’t think I’ve heard anything so “traditional” from him. But I totally agree with Iota above that it still has a youthful, adventurous character and a unique language. The contrapuntal writing in particular was very impressive. I thought the Kontra Quartet played very well, but I’m going to have to agree with Merl that the sound quality was very harsh and bright; I had to constantly keep adjusting the volume which was a nuisance. 

Just a thought I had while listening to this - in this group so far, we have listened to quartets from a huge range of styles, eras, and composer nationalities. We’ve had everything from 18th to 21st century, and we’ve heard music from German, Polish, Czech, Russian, French, Danish, Norwegian, American, Hispanic, and Argentinian composers; all with unique and interesting things to say. We’re so fortunate to have such a diverse range of music within the umbrella of the classical tradition, and this group has really helped me to gain a deeper appreciation of that!

FYI, since we’re going back to the top of the order, I guess I’ll be picking the quartet for next week, so no need for anyone to worry about turning in a nomination


----------



## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yes, another superb choice. I was actually expecting something more "spiky" and harmonically adventurous from Nielsen based off what I was familiar with from him, so it was somewhat surprising to hear a very traditional sounding piece. Don't get me wrong, I love Nielsen in all his various moods but I don't think I've heard anything so "traditional" from him. But I totally agree with Iota above that it still has a youthful, adventurous character and a unique language. The contrapuntal writing in particular was very impressive. I thought the Kontra Quartet played very well, but I'm going to have to agree with Merl that the sound quality was very harsh and bright; I had to constantly keep adjusting the volume which was a nuisance.


Yes, I think Nielsen's style varies a lot across different periods but also it's a bit dependent on the type of composition. Some of his orchestral pieces, like _Saga Drom_, _Helios Overture_, and Symphony Rhapsody, have quite traditional late-Romantic sound. It's been some time since I listened to his full symphony cycle but that's where Nielsen the Modernist is very apparent as far as I remember. The effect of WW1 has been proposed as one of the ways to explain the more modernist sound of his post-war symphonies. But I think even many of his earlier compositions were quite unpredictable and certainly energetic - seemed to be part of his style (which I'm very fond of ).


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## Josquin13

I'm a bit behind, sorry (so this will be two posts rolled into one). For Szymanowski's 1st String Quartet, I listened to two contrasting performances, which turned out to be a good way to tackle this quartet in order to gain a deeper understanding of the music. First, I listened to the Schoenberg Quartet. What I liked most about their performance is that they focus on the forward looking modern elements in the score. At the same time, they tend to largely--though not entirely--avoid the romanticism in the work. So the quartet comes off as something closer to a mid-20th century quartet, if you will, rather than a transitional early modern work with strong romantic elements. I've encountered this approach before with other ensembles who, like the Schoenberg Quartet, play a lot of modern music. They tend to focus primarily on the music's modern aspects, and for the most part avoid the romanticism in the score, almost as if it's not there. Of course, when the romanticism is there it can be a disservice to the composer.

To give a parallel example, for instance, some conductors see the symphonies of Allan Pettersson as purely modern works, & predominantly interpret the music in that vein, avoiding the romantic elements. For me, their interpretations don't work nearly as well as Pettersson's conductor of choice, Sergui Comissiona, who understood that a thread of romanticism exists within Pettersson's symphonies and he brought it out in full force (for example in the 7th symphony). Granted, Pettersson's symphonies still sound quite modern in Comissiona's hands, but the conductor's more romantically attuned approach tends to make the intensely emotional side of Pettersson's music sound more human, and I believe that Pettersson thought so too--judging by his letters to Comissiona--where he wrote that Comissiona's conducting represented his intentions perfectly.

To my mind, a similar thing is going on here with the Schoenberg Quartet, who likewise have chosen to play Szymanowski's 1917 quartet as if it were a later modern work, say maybe from the 1920s, 30s, or even 40s. The difference is that I don't have the same issue with their interpretation as I do with some of the more modern Pettersson conductors. Nevertheless, I have to admit that they make Szymanowski sound like less of a transitional composer than he probably was.

Yet, all of my doubts are erased when I listen to the Schoenberg Quartet's 2nd movement, which they play and interpret brilliantly (& especially the second part of it). Here they find an undeniable modern language in the score, and their interpretation is fascinating. Despite that (I gather) Schoenberg & Berg's modernism came before Szymanowski's, Szymanowski is still remarkably ahead of his time with this quartet--at least when I listen to the Schoenberg Quartet's interpretation. Certainly no French composer (that I know) was sounding this modern in 1917--not Charles Koechlin, or Albert Roussel, or even (the more modern) Darius Milhaud.

However, I don't think the Schoenberg Quartet pulls off the 3rd movement as successfully. I found myself somewhat indifferent to their 3rd movement. Perhaps the music is less inspired after such a richly imaginative 2nd movement (after all this is Szymanowski's first attempt at a string quartet). But I found the Schoenberg Quartet's interpretation of the 3rd movement to be confused, stylistically, and less convincing than the other two movements. The movement almost seemed out of place. It made me wonder if the Schoenberg Quartet's less romanticized approach had worked against Szymanowski's intentions for this movement?

Then, I listened to a live concert performance by a Polish group, the Szymanowski Quartet, who are new to me & an impressive quartet. Their interpretation is quite different from the Schoenberg's and at times it can almost sound like different music. Right from the start, the Szymanowski Quartet bring out the romantic elements in the music more fully, and they totally convinced me that these elements are an integral part of the score. The result being that the three movements come off as more unified and organically conceived. I came away thinking that there was a thread of romanticism--however subtle it may be--that links the whole quartet together, as one unified conception. Not surprisingly, the 3rd movement made more sense to me in the Szymanowski's interpretation in regards to its juxtaposition to the other two movements. It didn't seem as tacked on or less inspired. While, in contrast, I don't think all three movements work as well together in the Schoenberg's more uniformly modern interpretation.

Yet, I wouldn't want to be without the Schoenberg Quartet's fascinating 2nd movement, nor their 1st movement, either. Though ultimately I consider the Szymanowski's interpretation to be the more idiomatic performance. Granted, they aren't quite as sharply focused on the forward looking elements in the music as the Schoenberg Quartet is, but they don't miss them either. And, stylistically, they place the quartet probably where it belongs--in 1917, in Poland.

But I'm glad to have heard both performances. It was fascinating to hear how the same music can be interpreted so differently.

Unfortunately, the Szymanowski Quartet doesn't have a recording out of this quartet, but I hope they will soon (& expect they will--considering the name of the group, and the high quality of their playing). IMO, they should avoid the studio and simply release this live taped performance (on You Tube), it's that good (& I'd buy it). Here's a link, if anyone's interested:






For the sake of comparison, here's a link to the Schoenberg Quartet's recording, again: 



.

Thanks for the introduction to this fascinating work! I going to add it to my CD collection.

Prior to listening to the Szymanowski, I also listened to the Grieg Quartet. Sorry to go against the crowd here, but I wasn't as crazy about this work as others are. I found its raw expression of emotion and passion to be overwrought. For me, it wasn't satisfying how the quartet continually alternates--within each movement--between music that is dance-like and rhythmically alive and rather wild and intensely maniac, on the one hand, and music that is, in contrast, more gentle and folk-like in melody. I found it frustrating that the folk-like passages only served as brief respites from the constanly returning onslaught of intense emotions within each movement. It was a bit unrelenting, as if Grieg didn't know how to develop the quieter moods and passages any further into a complete movement. Even in his Romance & Intermezzo, Grieg kept returning to the overwrought emotions, which created a kind of see-saw effect and too wide a dynamic range--at least for me, as I found it unsettling (except for perhaps in the first movement, which I thought was the best music of the quartet). To my ears, it didn't sound like Grieg was especially comfortable or confident working within the string quartet idiom.

So, I guess I wasn't altogether crazy about the antithetical nature of this quartet, at least not within each & every movement. It was as if Grieg was constantly pitting two unrelated, incompatible scenes against each other for the duration the four movements. I suspect that he found the expansive structure of a four movement string quartet to be challenging, in the same way that writing symphonies proved to be too difficult for him (considering that Grieg suppressed his only symphony). My impression has been that he was a lot more at home composing miniatures for the solo piano (such as his beautiful Lyric Pieces, which I adore) and his shorter orchestral tone poems (such as his Two Elegiac Melodies, Op. 33--"Love's Wound" & "The Last Spring", and the Holberg Suite), and music that is more inherently episodic (such as his incidental music to Ibsen's play, Peer Gynt). The Piano Concerto may be the one exception, in terms of its size & scale.

On a side note, I was surprised to read that the English musicologist Gerald Abraham thought Debussy's String Quartet was modeled on Grieg's Quartet. I didn't hear that at all. I've never even thought of Grieg as a composer whose music Debussy would have been keenly interested in. Nor did this quartet remind of Debussy's quartet as I listened to it, except that they're in the same key, & that's about it. Although I admit that I haven't read Abraham's comparison of the two works. (But I will say that, for me, a closer connection exists between Debussy and Szymanowski's quartet, at least on first impression.)

I first listened to a recording of the Grieg Quartet that the Copenhagen Quartet made in the 1960s. It's a good performance. Then I listened to the Orlando Quartet in a filmed recording, & I liked that performance better. It was made after the Orlando's 1st violinist Istvan Parkanyi had left the group and been replaced by a young Arvid Engegård. As much as I admire Parkanyi's violin playing (& I'm a big fan), the later Orlandos were no less of a group when they changed first violinists. Their Haydn Op. 64 (nos. 4, 5, & 6) disc from that period, for example, with Engegård, is one of my favorite Haydn SQ recordings ever: https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-No/dp/B088MJD1JQ. Engegård brought a special energy & virtuosity to the group. You can hear that in their playing of the Grieg Quartet, too. Here's a link to the Orlando's Grieg performance, if anyone's interested:

1st movement: 



2nd movement: 



3rd movement: 



4th movement: 




So, I don't expect that I'll be adding the Grieg quartet to my collection. But I am grateful for having heard it. Coincidentally, over the past month or so, I had been revisiting some of Grieg's music for the first time in many years, & I was hoping to get to some of the chamber music, especially those works that I'd never heard before, such as this string quartet. So your selection was quite timely. Now I'll have to dig out Grieg's 3 Violin Sonatas, which I have heard before, but it's been so many years that I don't remember them. (Evidently, Franz Liszt admired Grieg's first Violin Sonata...)

I'm looking forward to hearing Carl Nielsen's quartet. He's another composer that I've been revisiting over the past year (having struggled somewhat with his music in previous years), and I've never heard any of his string quartets... (Of Nielson's chamber music, I've only ever heard his Wind Quintet, Op. 43, which I'd recommend if you don't know it: although it is sort of an odd but fun work: 



.)


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## Merl

Listening to the other Nielsen quartets they're all quite different. There's dissonance which I expected to hear in Nielsen's music but they're all set in a romantic vein. SQ2 (F minor) could even pass as a Brahms SQ (OK by me) and is a really enjoyable piece too. Inner movements generally consist of a gloomy beauty and introspection surrounded by outer movements of music employing plenty of double stops, syncopation, (my beloved) pizzicato, tension, agitation and the occasional 'jolly tune'. 
I think it's important to remember that these works were written by a still very young Nielsen who was still learning his art and there's some understandable nods to Brahms and Beethoven (nothing wrong there for me, either). For example, in the opening measures of the first movement of this week's choice, the Op. 14, I hear Beethoven’s Late Quartets. Its full of contrapuntal effects and is bold and assertive. The 2nd movement rises and soars beautifully yet has a sombre quality I really like. The third movement has a frisky theme given out by the first violin before it dissolves into that lively, stormy presto and then returns to the main theme. It seems to whizz by. The main theme of the finale allegro was the one I was unsure of at first but I've actually come to love it the most. It almost sounds like the intro to a TV series about the Wild West before it then transposes into that interesting but short pizzicato section and then recapitulates into the main theme. 
As I said earlier, I've really enjoyed getting to know this SQ. It wasn't what I was expecting from Nielsen but it's right up my street, musically. Yet again this thread has ended up costing me more money in obtaining music I was unfamiliar with. Its even costing me money buying different accounts of music I am familiar with (eg Ravel). Damn you, TC 'stringsters'.


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## Malx

This week I have little chance to listen to music having a bout of shingles which is affecting my head, neck and shoulder has made listening a chore.
I did listen to the only recording I have of the Nielsen quartet by the Danish String Quartet (not young at that time), I really couldn't work up the energy or enthusiasm to try others.
Sorry for for depressing post.


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## Enthusiast

Very sorry to hear that, Malx. Shingles is said to be an awful experience. I wish you a speedy recovery.


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## Enthusiast

Nielsen's 3rd quartet was a relatively early work, composed in 1897, a few years after the 1st and a few years before the 2nd symphonies. It is also, I think, a little more modern than it seems at first - in several places we find ourselves listening to music that is far from its apparent conservatism. All in all, it seems to be very much a work of its time and of its period in Nielsen's output. A fine work, full of good ideas, distinctively bright and instantly (I suspect) likable. Its existence hints to me that there is much for me to still discover in Nielsen's earlier music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Though I can’t say I find the Nielsen quartet to be particularly memorable - I’m not willing to call it one of his masterpieces - I can’t find anything at fault with it; it’s a lovely piece and like the Grieg quartet, it has tangible folk roots but Nielsen’s music is more “nuanced” sounding to me than the pure tunesmithery of Grieg. That is one of the things I love most about Nielsen - he never tries to do anything too grandiose, he’s just integrating folksy vibes with a late Romantic/early modernist musical language. Even in the more epic works like the 5th symphony (which is one of my favorite 20thc symphonies) it’s not bombast or pretentiousness at all. I think I will listen to his colorful Wind Quintet this afternoon, which I haven’t heard in a while. For this quartet I couldn’t detect too much difference in performing style between the Kontra and the (Young) Danish, but like Merl I have to give the edge to the Danish due to the Kontra’s harsh recorded sound. I also listened to some of the old Erling Bloch, and enjoyed it very much. Good sound quality for the era and another one of those spontaneous, expressive, old-style performances that we don’t see replicated very often it at all.

I will announce next week’s quartet some time tomorrow! I’m really struggling on whether to pick a work that I know well and that is dear to my heart, or something that I would like to explore further and which may be more challenging to me. Probably leaning toward the latter, but I have to do some more sampling of various candidates...

And, now that we’ve completed the first “cycle” of nominations, for reference, here is the master list of quartets listened to so far:

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24-05/31: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31-06/07: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07-06/14: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
06/14-06/21: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
06/21-06/28: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
06/28-07/05: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
07/05-07/12: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
07/12-07/19: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
07/19-07/26: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
07/26-08/02: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
08/02-08/09: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)


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## Knorf

(Side note: that is one awesome list of String Quartets!)

Sorry I haven't been commenting much recently. I was out of town for the two previous weeks, and my listening was pretty sparse.

Nielsen's Third Quartet I've known for awhile, but it never grabbed me. I came to know Nielsen in my teenage years, when I fell in love with his symphonies-especially _The Inextinguishable_-and being a bassoonist I've performed his marvelous Wind Quintet, Op. 43-a true masterpiece-many, many times, and it is very dear to me.

But I will say these descriptions and enthusiastic comments that you all wrote in this thread have helped persuade me, and I listened to Op. 14 again straight through twice yesterday, and will again today. It's definitely grown on me, and I'm starting to definitively like it; before, I was merely indifferent. It will never measure up to the Wind Quintet, much less the symphonies, but I realize that I really should not expect it to.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Though I can't say I find the Nielsen quartet to be particularly memorable - I'm not willing to call it one of his masterpieces - I can't find anything at fault with it; it's a lovely piece and like the Grieg quartet, it has tangible folk roots but Nielsen's music is more "nuanced" sounding to me than the pure tunesmithery of Grieg. That is one of the things I love most about Nielsen - he never tries to do anything too grandiose, he's just integrating folksy vibes with a late Romantic/early modernist musical language. Even in the more epic works like the 5th symphony (which is one of my favorite 20thc symphonies) it's not bombast or pretentiousness at all. I think I will listen to his colorful Wind Quintet this afternoon, which I haven't heard in a while. For this quartet I couldn't detect too much difference in performing style between the Kontra and the (Young) Danish, but like Merl I have to give the edge to the Danish due to the Kontra's harsh recorded sound. I also listened to some of the old Erling Bloch, and enjoyed it very much. Good sound quality for the era and another one of those spontaneous, expressive, old-style performances that we don't see replicated very often it at all.
> 
> I will announce next week's quartet some time tomorrow! I'm really struggling on whether to pick a work that I know well and that is dear to my heart, or something that I would like to explore further and which may be more challenging to me. Probably leaning toward the latter, but I have to do some more sampling of various candidates...
> 
> And, now that we've completed the first "cycle" of nominations, for reference, here is the master list of quartets listened to so far:
> 
> 02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
> 03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
> 03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
> 03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
> 03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
> 03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
> 04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
> 04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
> 04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
> 04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
> 05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
> 05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
> 
> 05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
> 05/24-05/31: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
> 05/31-06/07: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
> 06/07-06/14: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
> 06/14-06/21: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
> 06/21-06/28: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
> 06/28-07/05: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
> 07/05-07/12: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
> 07/12-07/19: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
> 07/19-07/26: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
> 07/26-08/02: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
> 08/02-08/09: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)


Yep, that really is a diverse collection of SQs but that's really good. I've not enjoyed every one of these but I don't expect to but at least I'm getting to experience a wide variety of works from the distant past and from more recently. I'm really enjoying this thread and the discoveries I've made due to my fellow stringsters on here.:guitar:


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## starthrower

Still so many more we can explore from famous cycles no one has yet chosen. Not to mention many others.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Alright, guys and gals. As I thought long and hard about my nomination this week, I knew that I wanted to pick something that would further our appreciation of the incredibly diverse array of potentials within the humble string quartet genre. Even if I haven't necessarily enjoyed every single quartet we've done, each one has given me a great admiration for the genius of intrepid composers, from the sturm und drang of Haydn to the folk influences of Grieg and Nielsen to the personal anguish of Shostakovich to the wild soundscapes of Lachenmann and Carter. I then thought about the most famous string quartet cycles that we have not touched yet. Keeping that in mind and knowing that I wanted something "unique" enough to stimulate discussion but not too crazy "out there" to alienate listeners, I narrowed it down to two choices - Bartók and Janácek. After auditioning possible candidates for each, I have decided that this week's honors will go to...

*BARTÓK!!!!*

His *String Quartet No. 4,* to be exact. Now, I am a huge fan of Bartók as he was the first modernist composer that I fell in love with. His "thornier" quartets took a while to click with me, but once they did I found them very addicting. Yes, the musical language is quite spiky and dissonant, but I found his blend of folk influences, driving energy, caressing lyricism, and creative extended techniques to be irresistable. There are times where it sounds more dreamy and "impressionist" like Ravel and times where it is astringent but still very lovable IMO. I don't think it's "academic" or "inaccessible" at all - it's just great, great music that provides endless fascination. I chose the 4th because I think it encapsulates everything awesome about one of my favorite 20th century composers into one. I'll just let Wikipedia explain it in their excellent article!

Besides what Wiki says, I don't want to provide too much of my own perceptions since I think everyone should discover their own personal rewards from the music. But I will say that I find the structure of the first movement - starting off with fistfuls of tone clusters and searing dissonances - then gradually winding down into more consonant harmonies and a peaceful finish - quite brilliant. The central movement is a perfect example of haunting night music, and the finale is true head-banging material; what you'd want to play first to a metalhead that you want to convert to classical. Oh, and let's not forget about the short but sweet fourth movement which is entirely in pizzicato!

As far as recordings, one reason I chose this quartet is because I want to take a deeper dive into performances of Bartók's quartets and so far I am really only familiar with the Hungarian on DG and the Alban Berg. I've enjoyed both but I still feel like I'm looking for the recording for me. I've heard great (and not so great) things about the Tatrai, Emerson, Tokyo, Takács, and Hagen so I'd like to sample all of those at some point this week, plus any other recommendations anyone may throw out there.

So there you have it! Have fun and happy listening


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## Allegro Con Brio

Oh, and here's the tentative order of nominators for the second "cycle" as we stick with the original order:

Enthusiast
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1050
Portamento
Shosty
sbmonty
Merl
Eramire156
Knorf
Simplicissimus
TurnaboutVox
calvinpv
20centrfuge
Iota
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw

*On standby (will be added back to the rotation once they make an appearance in the thread)*
Vicente
Euler
MissKittysMom


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## Merl

Great choice of SQ, ACB. My fave Bartok quartet and the key to a great recording is a top performance of the 4th movement (pizzicato heaven). I have quite a few I love so I'll probably start with those. 
. Jeez I've found 45 recordings of this SQ up to now! I may have to be very selective. Luckily I know a few of these recordings well. This is a fave of yours too, isn't it Starthrower?


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## Simplicissimus

Bartók’s SQ 4 is going to bring me back to music I used to listen to all the time but which I’ve taken for granted and neglected over the past few years. I remember how I got into Bartók’s string quartets. Shortly after I moved to Washington, DC in the summer of 1989, one of my new colleagues mentioned the Smithsonian Institution’s chamber music series at the Baird Auditorium of the National Museum of Natural History. I bought a subscription and it turned out that the Emerson Quartet were in residence and were featuring the six SQs. I was thoroughly enchanted by these works and soon bought the Emersons’ recording (1988, DGG). That was when my CD collection numbered in the tens! For several years I spun these CDs frequently.

I’ve really never sampled recordings other than the Emersons’ and I’m looking forward very much to doing so this week, within the limitations of my streaming service. I’ll start with the Alexander Quartet, which has been mentioned on the Bartók SQ thread. I’m intrigued by the idea of harsh versus smooth or lyrical Bartók. It might turn out that the Emersons are harsh as ACB has noted they tend to be.


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## Enthusiast

I have 9 Bartok quartet sets and have been intending to get a better understanding of how they compare. Of course, a preference one week is likely to be different from one a few months later. A great quartet.


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## Merl

Simplicissimus said:


> .....
> I've really never sampled recordings other than the Emersons' and I'm looking forward very much to doing so this week, within the limitations of my streaming service. I'll start with the Alexander Quartet, which has been mentioned on the Bartók SQ thread. I'm intrigued by the idea of harsh versus smooth or lyrical Bartók. It might turn out that the Emersons are harsh as ACB has noted they tend to be.


Ive started checking my recordings out so here's my thoughts on some of the recordings I know well or own.

*Emerson* - people might expect the Emersons to play this harshly but they don't. What they do is play with great vitality and turn on a particularly gripping account with the 4th movement being an absolute joy. 
*Belcea* - Another set I have but its never been a favourite and they play the 4th beautifully but with too much restraint for my liking.
*Chiara* - this was a newer acquisition for me and this 'Bartok by Heart' (played from memory) is superb. Brilliantly recorded and realised. It's a tough and vital reading but the final movement is just brilliant. A terrific performance.
*Amadeus* - Too slow, too smooth. Not for me. I got this in as a download for very little money. Never been mad on it.
*Vermeer* - smoother, more rounded performance but very fine indeed. Improves as it goes on and the pizzicato section is particularly rewarding
*Jerusalem* - another I picked up recently. Really enjoyable account with enough zest and bounce to keep my interest. Lovely. 
*Alban Berg* - as expected this one is straight down the line and if you like their traversal of the LvB quartets this is equally impressive and similar in realisation. From a fine set.
*Takacs* (1998) - this has long been my go-to set of the SQs and #4 doesn't disappoint. Brilliant performanve with the right mix of fire and lyricism. Yes, the recording has always been a little dry but it's played with such conviction that this is a tiny quibble. Awesome.
*Hagen* - Another one that has the right mix for me. Superb recording across the whole SQ and the middle section is particularly captivating. 
*Heath* - This has always had rave reviews so I got it on the strength of those but I'm still not convinced. It's played with limited vibrato and is clean and crisp but to me lacks enough passion. Others love this one but I still don't get it. The playing is awesome but does it move me? Not quite. 
*Fine Arts* - Not one I own but this late 50s recording, sampled on Spotify, was from very much of a bygone era. Like their LVB, you can't fault the interplay or the recording quality as a whole (it's surprisingly very well recorded) but again I want more fire from my Bartok.
*Zehetmair* - I got this one on the strength of a recommendation from a Bartok enthusiast from one of the old Google groups. I was not disappointed. Massive range of dynamics and stunning recording. If you like your Bartok on the hard-hitting side then this could be the one for you. 
*Alexander* - a sleeper of a performance. Occupying the middle ground, what really impresses is the Alexander's feel for this SQ. They really bring out the symmetrical nature of this quartet. I know this one has a few fans, who like me enjoy this reading a great deal for its fine lyricism and inspired playing

More reviews to follow (really, Merl? Do you have to? )


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## Mandryka

Tatrai. I think Tatrai are a bit special in this one. More reflective than boisterous, but still tough and angular. Are Mikrokosmos similar? I will check one day this week. 

Early Juilliard also good, there are some live ones around - good in a different way from Tatrai.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Tatrai. I think Tatrai are a bit special in this one. More reflective than boisterous, but still tough and angular. Are Mikrokosmos similar? I will check one day this week.
> 
> Early Juilliard also good, there are some live ones around - good in a different way from Tatrai.


The Tatrai and Mikrokosmos are top of my 'to-hear' list, Mandryka (but not literally).


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> The Tatrai and Mikrokosmos are top of my 'to-hear' list, Mandryka (but not literally).
> 
> View attachment 141107


To that list on the image (they may be there and I may have missed them) -- I would add New Hungarian Quartet on Vox (Not the same as The Hungarian quartet on DG) and Keller.

The last time I thought seriously about this quartet was in 2014, and my favourites at that time were Zehetmair, Tatrai and Juilliard (1950) I'm sure there have been lots of interesting new ones over the past six years. I remember enjoying this when it came out a couple of years ago -- though I didn't listen very critically


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## Knorf

Bartók's Fourth has been one of my favorite quartets ever for a long time. I'll very much enjoy revisiting it!


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## Merl

Well today's Bartok listening was certainly memorable to say the least. I managed to cram in 3 performances before our school meeting at 11 (another surreal experience) and the rest when I got home. So here goes...

*Mikrokosmos* - lean, strident and a very different t reading from many of the others I've heard. I've gotta say I really enjoyed this unique interpretation. Structurally I found the whole SQ hung together really well.
*Juilliard (1963)* - another enjoyable performance. Sounds more clinical in delivery and with a quite dry recorded sound. Perhaps a bit too calculated for my tastes but superb playing and momentum.
*Ramor* - not a recording I enjoyed at all. Distant sound and very dry, wiry violins made this sound as if it was recorded in a school corridor. Not for me.
*Vegh* - What a great account. The Vegh's play Bartok with the same rustic charm as they imbue their Beethoven with. Technically not the best here but they fully capture the spirit of the music and for its age this is incredibly well recorded. I did think that this one was supposed to be mono but what I heard was definitely stereo. Another keeper.
*Tatrai -* OMG. What can I say about this? To say this recording is idiosyncratic would be an understatement. The mid 60s recording is very closely miked but that's just one thing that makes this one stand out. The sound of the vilons is very sinewy which would normally have me running for the hills but they play this SQ unlike any other quartet and you can't stop listening to it. I really need to listen to this angular recording again before I give my opinion on it. It really is very different from anything else I've ever heard in an SQ performance. Totally unique. Listen to the 4th movement, it almost sounds like a different work than it's competitors. 
*Di Cremona *- excellent performance with a wide dynamic range and some pulling of tempi which works rather well tbh, especially in the 2nd and final movements. Again, a thoroughly engaging performance.
*Tokyo (DG*) - Interesting account with tons of inner detail. Another that warrants a 2nd listen as I have slight reservations about it that may disappear on a subsequent listen.

I think I need a lie down after that quirky lot. Hahaha.


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## starthrower

Jesus, Merl! You really get into it. I'm going to pass on this one even though I'm a big fan of Bartok. My head is stuck in the 19th century at the moment and mainly on piano. But when I do listen to Bartok's quartets it's usually Alban Berg or Takacs. And I like what I've heard from the Vegh's mono set despite the lousy sound.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Jesus, Merl! You really get into it. I'm going to pass on this one even though I'm a big fan of Bartok. My head is stuck in the 19th century at the moment and mainly on piano. But when I do listen to Bartok's quartets it's usually Alban Berg or Takacs. And I like what I've heard from the* Vegh's mono set despite the lousy sound*.


The Vegh I've just listened to didn't have lousy sound so I'm wondering what I just heard. I'm gonna have to do some research.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> The Vegh I've just listened to didn't have lousy sound so I'm wondering what I just heard. I'm gonna have to do some research.


They do have a stereo cycle which I haven't heard. Or maybe it's fake stereo? I think the Praga re-issue is fake stereo of their 50s cycle. The mono recordings I heard sound a bit boomy to my ears but they were issued on a cheapo label. Documents or Membran I believe. There was a stereo cycle from 1972.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> They do have a stereo cycle which I haven't heard. Or maybe it's fake stereo? The mono recordings sound a bit boomy to my ears but they were issued on a cheapo label. Documents or Membran I believe.


Just checked
It's the 1972 stereo set on Naive. They also have the 1954 4th on Spotify so I'll give that a try later in the week. I haven't heard that one. I only know the stereo remakes.


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## starthrower

I just found the stereo cycle on Spotify.


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## Merl

OK, another lot. Some of these I listened to all the way through but some were less convincing so I skip-sampled them.

*Diotima* - although a fine recording this SQ are better in the slower, quieter passages and are a little too restrained and pleasant but technically assured and impressive players. 
*Cavani* - screechy violin sound ruled this one out for me straight away. Not particularly individual enough of a performance, either. 
*Orpheus* - well played and decent but nothing sets them apart from the pack. 
*Belenus* - a little mechanical at times especially on the final movement which sounds a bit 'folksy by numbers' for me. 
*Amati* - average. Indistinct. 
*Ragazze* - could have been a contender as the playing is superb but they just don't give this quartet enough oomph. With a bit more weight this would be a really impressive one. 
*Lindsays* - another I liked a lot. Everything goes really well until the finale where I didn't feel the Lindsays really captured the folk rhythms as impressively as others but this is very good indeed. 
*Euclid -* like some others today, this one is a bit underplayed and 'plinky'. Not to my taste but I love the slightly reverberant recording. Slow movement is very good.

I'll finish off my listening tomorrow.


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## annaw

I listened to a few recordings last night but even more this morning. I’m really enjoying this quartet thanks to its somewhat adventurous nature. The complexity is fascinating and the more I listen to it, the more I start understanding its underlying structure. I particularly enjoy the last two movements. That pizzicato is wonderful and the last movement, with all these folk tunes hidden under modernist sound, resembles an (extremely advanced) action movie soundtrack.

I find it extremely difficult to pick one or two favourites from the recordings I’ve listened to and I should listen to them repeatedly to arrive to any more definite conclusion. Nevertheless, a few that I’ve really enjoyed are ABQ, Emerson, Hagen, Tatrai, and Arcadia (whose recordings of a few other Bartok quartets I ended up listening to as well).


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, I have listened to a _paltry_ four recordings of this quartet so far and each has been revealing in its own way. Every time I'm amazed at the intellectual rigor and compactness of material/structure. I think any ensemble who plays it has to revel in and embrace its adventurousness - all those extended techniques (the fourth movement practically gave name to the famous "Bartok pizzicato" where the string is plucked so hard it snaps against the wood) and crazy harmonies and complex rhythms - but also balance that with the folk tunes.

*Emerson* - Alright, the Emersons don't play harshly here. Not at all. But they still give me the sensation that they're trying too hard to make it sound integrated instead of just letting it happen. The quality of playing is superb and it all sounds very polished and professional, but I miss the warmth and imagination of other versions.
*Tatrai* - Yeah, this one is different! Merl described it perfectly as "angular." The tone quality of the quartet is, to be frank, pretty ugly-sounding - scratchy and husky in fairly limited recorded sound (it's for that reason that I've never really warmed to their Haydn; I think Haydn needs to sound "prettier" and I find the acclaim for those performances baffling). But this is an approach that needs to be heard, not least for the uniquely folksy approach they take to the music. I can imagine myself strolling into a small-town Hungarian beer hall and hearing this performance. It just sounds that rustic and homespun.
*Hagen* - The Hagen brings some very different and refreshing interpretive ideas to the table. However it sounds like they thought very hard about how they were going to play it and that everything they do is planned down to the T. I like a bit more spontaneity. Still a uniquely inspired account with loads of personal touches that scores quite high in my book. The third movement in particular sounds very beautiful. 
*Takacs* - Certainly my favorite of the four. Yes, the recorded sound is very dry and rather quiet, but the performance more than makes up for it. It all sounds so idiomatic to me - they find the lyricism, they bring out the rhythmic vigor, they sound totally inspired and spontaneous, the playing has a folksy bite and snap to it but they balance energy and repose in perfect harmony. Lovely.

I'll try to sneak in Hungarian, Tokyo, ABQ at the very least in the next few days and see if anyone can dethrone the Takacs.

And as long as I'm here, I'm giving *Enthusiast* a heads-up that next week is his turn.


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## Iota

I love all the Bartok quartets, all examples of the jewels that can be unearthed from the human imagination I think. 

I have the Emersons who are certainly assertive and energetic in this quartet. And agree with Merl that their last movement rocks. The Hagen also always interesting/good. Will certainly make that Tatrai a port of call, it sounds intriguing! And hope to get round to some of the more reflective and spontaneous readings as alluded to by ACB and others when life permits, as I know this music can work in many different ways. 

The second movement has distant echoes for me of the eerie, elusive final movement of Chopin's Bb minor piano sonata, but perhaps this is just a personal thing.


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> And as long as I'm here, I'm giving *Enthusiast* a heads-up that next week is his turn.


Got it, thanks, ACB.

I still don't know what I'll choose but I will be wanting something not too challenging. Mozart? Probably too well known. Martinu? Maybe. But I have also been spending time with Terry Riley and his long-term partnership with the Kronos Quartet recently. His quartet music tends to include some electronics and/or tapes and I wonder if it could still qualify?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> Got it, thanks, ACB.
> 
> I still don't know what I'll choose but I will be wanting something not too challenging. Mozart? Probably too well known. Martinu? Maybe. But I have also been spending time with Terry Riley and his long-term partnership with the Kronos Quartet recently. His quartet music tends to include some electronics and/or tapes and I wonder if it could still qualify?


That's actually something that I thought about when I was considering my nomination. At first I wanted to nominate something really challenging for me, like Crumb's Black Angels. But then I thought that that wasn't really a string quartet because it has so many more instruments. I would say that if it's centered around the string quartet concept - four string instruments that may or may not be augmented with electronics/other instruments/whetever - I say go for it. But then again, maybe some Mozart is what we need


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## Enthusiast

Well, I always need Mozart!


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## starthrower

I've really tried to like classical era quartets but it just hasn't clicked. And I'm not really into the opposite extreme of the current "avant garde" stuff. Fereneyhough does nothing for me. I don't like Black Angels either but I enjoy some of Crumb's other pieces. But if Enthusiast picks an interesting Mozart quartet or something else I'll listen to it.


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## Enthusiast

No-one picked up on the Martinu suggestion. Is that a lack of interest or over-familiarity or under-familiarity?


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## starthrower

Enthusiast said:


> No-one picked up on the Martinu suggestion. Is that a lack of interest or over-familiarity or under-familiarity?


I'm a fan but I've not listened to his string quartets. I'm very impressed with his piano quintet no.2.


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## Knorf

If someone selected a Martinů String Quartet, I would certainly not complain. But I won't be complaining about Mozart, either, if something by him is chosen. Nor Crumb. I might complain if the choice is Phillip Glass.


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## Merl

Choose anything. I'm not ar*ed! I'll still listen. I'm fine with Martinu, Mozart or even Glass!


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## Knorf

Yeah, Glass is probably ok. Choose away!


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## Merl

OK, apart from a few on the HD, here's the penultimate batch of Bartok #4s.

*Hungarian* - plenty of snap, bite but with a beautiful air of mysticism to boot. A classic reading.
*Guarneri* - slightly hissy analogue from the mid-70s but a wholly convincing performance. The focus here is on lyricism not harsh attacks. The pizzicato movement is stunning.
*Borromeo* - impressive with lots of interesting touches. I love the deep rich slurs in the final movement, in particular.
*Armida* - OK, but they take the final movement too quickly and even though the playing is crisp and snappy the whole thing lacks weight.
*Vertavo -* yes! Quite a quirky account with stunning Simax sound. Very enjoyable.
*Vegh 1954 - *a classic account full of great colour, passion, warmth and force in equal measure. Great playing.
*Arcadia* - stunning performance which really hits the heights from the start but the 2nd half is terrific. This maybe slightly softer edged Bartok but the whole account is so utterly convincing and Chandos give this lot killer sound that is full and close but not intrusive. Brilliant!

Still two more to come and then I'll do a brief round-up.


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## Simplicissimus

^About to start on the Guarneris’ recording. Really glad you mentioned them, Merl. After my reference recording by the Emersons, I’ve been listening to the Alexanders. Both very fine performances, the Alexanders more lyrical, the Emersons more passionate to my ear. What I want is color, really vivid chords especially in the first movement.


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## Mandryka

There is one I have which I find really challenging, I'd be keen to hear what other people make of it, from the Casals Quartet here


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## Malx

This morning I have listened to three of the sets of the Bartok quartets I have on my shelves:

Tokyo (DG) - Plenty of attack and energy, precision in their playing in a slightly bright sound - excellent.

Keller - Less noticable attack generally darker overall sound, controlled - very good.

Takacs - Again plenty of attack if slightly more controlled, they seem for me to combine the best of the other two sets listened to - excellent (my 1st choice).


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> There is one I have which I find really challenging, I'd be keen to hear what other people make of it, from the Casals Quartet here
> 
> View attachment 141355


It's in my queue but from what I remember I have liked it a lot. Each phrase is quite strongly characterised which might make some hear it as a little fragmented or, perhaps, exaggerated. I remember finding it strongly communicative!


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## sbmonty

Listened to the Takács, the Hungarian, Chiara, Tátrai and Zehetmair this week. This was not a quartet with which I was very familiar, making comparative listening a bit more difficult. I think overall I preferred the Hungarian Quartet. Refined, more warm approach. But the Takács and the Tátrai were nice counterweights. I'm spending some time listening to the rest of Bartók's quartets now. Excellent choice. Thanks. 

Mozart or Martinů would both be great. Lots of terrific Mozart quartets!


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## Malx

I've just listened to the Casals Quartet recording of the Bartok 4 via Qobuz - fabulous, the disc has been added to my wish list, thanks Mandryka.

They manage to make the quartet sound more of a whole rather than five movements, if that makes sense, with a flow to the piece which for me is better than the others I have heard.
Less agresssive attack at times but with phrases delineated from each other it has a 'staccato' feel to the first movement.
Overall I would describe the performance as cool, understated but with great insight.


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## Merl

I have the Casals to listen to either tonight or tomorrow. Its queued up ready to hear on the laptop along with Keller and another one (forgotten which one).


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## annaw

Malx said:


> I've just listened to the Casals Quartet recording of the Bartok 4 via Qobuz - fabulous, the disc has been added to my wish list, thanks Mandryka.
> 
> They manage to make the quartet sound more of a whole rather than five movements, if that makes sense, with a flow to the piece which for me is better than the others I have heard.
> Less agresssive attack at times but with phrases delineated from each other it has a 'staccato' feel to the first movement.
> Overall I would describe the performance as cool, understated but with great insight.


I listened to it a few days ago and I also agree that it wasn't the most fiery interpretation but the playing was very beautiful. I liked the last movement particularly!


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## Mandryka

It’s strange how we all hear different things. Yes it’s well executed etc. But I find the Casals recording somehow matter of fact in the crucial first movement. The last two movements are more incandescent, bravura, but the opening coolth is a deal breaker for me,.


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> It's strange how we all hear different things. Yes it's well executed etc. But I find the Casals recording somehow matter of fact in the crucial first movement. The last two movements are more incandescent, bravura, but the opening coolth is a deal breaker for me,.


I agree that the Casals get 'better' as the piece goes on but the coolness of the first movement for me contributes to a valid alternate view of the piece.
Now, not being able to read a score I cannot comment on what Bartok was looking for from a performance, and if the Casals are wide of the mark then sobeit.
However in a months time I might have a different view of the relative merits of recordings as I do believe mood at the time of listening has a bearing on my response to performances.


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## Simplicissimus

I've only listened to three recordings of Bartok 4, but I enjoyed listening several times to each. After a couple of years not listening to this SQ, I discovered with joy that it excites and entertains me more than ever.

My reference recording is the Emersons', which I have had on CD for about 30 years. I listened to it once and then started listening to the Alexanders. Then I switched to the Guarneris. The differences among these three performances were easily noticeable. To me, the Guarneris are scratchy and percussive, with machine-like rhythms that made me think they had in mind some connection between this 1928 SQ and Fritz Lang's 1927 dystopian film _Metropolis_. I didn't like this recording. I do like the Guarneris' Mozart very much, so this was an interesting new angle on them though a disappointment for me. I liked the Alexanders a lot. They have a full, rich, and confident sound. However, I really love the Emersons' interpretation of this SQ. After thinking about it for a couple of days, I've arrived at this idea: The Emersons seem to have pegged their interpretation of this SQ to Bartok's entire oeuvre, including orchestral works like _Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta_ and _The Miraculous Mandarin_. Their interpretation just sounds to me the most... well, *Bartok*. The Alexanders and Guarneris sounded to me like they conceived their interpretation based upon the score (of course) and the other five SQs. But not the rest of Bartok. Anyway, that's my impression.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Sorry I've been absent of late. Real life has been extremely busy for several weeks running now and has really cut into my active listening time. I guess I have two quertets to listen to. Thanks @Merl for doing the heavy lifting. Now I can just pick one of the good recordings!


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## Enthusiast

I am going for *Mozart *for the next week's quartet:

*Quartet 19 K 465, "Dissonance".*

It is probably one that many of us know well but still listening in a more focused was and exchanging thought about it in a group is not quite the same as just listening for pleasure.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I am going for *Mozart *for the next week's quartet:
> 
> *Quartet 19 K 465, "Dissonance".*
> 
> It is probably one that many of us know well but still listening in a more focused was and exchanging thought about it in a group is not quite the same as just listening for pleasure.


A child falls and grazes his knee slightly while playing with his friends. There are tears and he cries. An adult takes him on his knee and gives him a cuddle, dabs his nose. After 30 seconds the child jumps down and starts to play again, full of smiles, as if nothing had ever happened. All tears forgotten.

Why should this trope, a slow dissonant prelude to basically cheerful jaunty music, be so common in classical music, here in Mozart, but there are many examples in Haydn and even Beethoven did it in the 4th symphony? What's it about? What does the intro tell us about the way to play the rest of the movement.


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## Enthusiast

I have some thoughts about the different recordings of the Bartok that I have been listening to. All together I listened to ten different accounts. A couple - the Arditti and the Heath - I found good and satisfying but not really exceptional. I am glad to have them but do not really think they give me much that other recordings give more strongly.

The *Emersons*' account is exceptionally well played but I find it a little lacking in character. All in all I found it efficient and rather controlled.

The *Juilliard*'s 1963 recording couldn't be more different. If there is one word it brings to my mind it is wild. The sound is a little old - I think this shows most in the quartet's lovely middle (slow) movement - but this does not impede the impact of a remarkable performance.

The *Takacs*' recording is my idea of perfection! You couldn't call it wild but it is still filled with the spirit of the music (and that is, I think, a rather wild spirit). The slow movement is remarkable. This account seems to have it all.

The *Cuarteto Casals*' account _is_ a bit different. Perhaps it is gentler - not a problem as such for me - and it is rather analytical. There is lots good solo and ensemble playing in it and it does seem to tell me things about the work that are genuinely new to me. It almost left me wondering if it is the same work. It is an undeniably (to me!) attractive performance and one I will want to hear quite often (along with the Ligeti 1 that is its main coupling). But it doesn't for me plumb the depths of the piece and some of the others.

The *Tatrai*'s recording is, like the Juilliard's, fairly old and can (as others have noted) sound a little rough (the sound rather than the ensemble). It has an earthiness that I like a lot. Some seem to have found it going off in different angles (have I understood correctly?) but I don't really hear that so much as a sense of almost improvisation.

I've run out of time for writing and will have to come back later or tomorrow for some brief words about the Tokyo and the Vegh recordings.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Got the chance to finish this week of Bartok with the Hungarian on DG and the Casals on Harmonia Mundi. Both excellent in their own way. I thought the Hungarian sounded very idiomatic and secure but perhaps a bit bland at first, but the performance exerted a magnetism on me and I just couldn’t stop listening. They tend to delineate the textures very clearly so you can hear the independence and complexity of the line, and their slow movement was amazing - not soporific like some others, they infuse it with a unique intensity. Lovely. The Casals sounded quite different. They have some very unique phrasing and lots of energy and the impression I got was one of youthful creativity. A very expressive performance. I would still stick with the Takacs for my desert island, but it was great to hear a good handful of versions this week and I’m glad to know that everyone seemed enjoy it.

On to Mozart! Mozart is not among my absolute favorite composers, but his quartets are one of my favorite bodies of work by him. That being said I have never really been impressed by the “Dissonance" beyond the startlingly progressive (and seemingly out of place) introduction, preferring several other of his quartets. The Italiano has been my preferred set of the quartets but I can’t say I’ve done much comparison.


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## Merl

I finally got round to listening to Casals and Keller and whilst both are impressive they didn't make an impact on my very top picks for this quartet which are...........

*Must hear *

*Hungarian*
*Vegh* (both 50s and 70s recordings) 
*Mikrokosmos*
*Hagen*
*Guarneri*
*Emerson*
*Di Cremona*
*Tokyo*
*Tatrai* (even though I'm still not sure if I like it... You still must hear this recording)

*The Extra-Special (must have)*

*Takacs* - the Takacs have it all, charm, poise, aggression, incredible vitality. Just a superb complete recording that is beautifully shaped and feels 'just right'. 
*Zehetmair* - this was top of the pile throughout and missed the top spot by a whisker. I adore this recording. 
*Chiara* - this has got so much feeling it feels personal. Gorgeous recording and an amazing achievement to play from memory with this amount of skill. 
*























My top pick*

*Arcadia* - this brilliantly recorded Chandos disc stole my heart for the top spot and is one of the finest SQ recordings I've heard recently. Its a truly immense performance, sitting slightly on the more lyrical side of the fence but really highlighting the poetic side of this quartet. A stunning performance from a cracking cycle (I listened to it the other day) and one which took me by surprise.









So there goes another SQ. As the next one is Mozart and there are tons of recordings I'm going to only listen to a few and be very selective on those I like, otherwise I could be listening 24/7.


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## Knorf

Enthusiast said:


> I am going for *Mozart *for the next week's quartet:
> 
> *Quartet 19 K 465, "Dissonance".*
> 
> It is probably one that many of us know well but still listening in a more focused was and exchanging thought about it in a group is not quite the same as just listening for pleasure.


Great choice! It's a lovely piece. For me, it also has special meaning coming right after Bartók! I'll explain.

I am recently retired as a Professor of Music ("full", with tenure), employed as a composer and a bassoonist, and among my teaching assignments was orchestration, one of my favorite topics. I typically taught the subject as an upper-division seminar, meaning for students in the last two years of a music major and typically relatively small class sizes (usually 15-20). I loved teaching it! It's an endlessly fascinating topic, especially in how a composer's style is identifiable as much or more via understanding how they orchestrate as it is via their melodic and harmonic language.

In the end, to learn orchestration and all its subtleties, score study and active listening are absolutely essential. The idiosyncrasies, challenges, requirements, limits, and possibilities of each instrument in their various combinations simply will not stick in one's ear and mind without this. As a result, I always gave copious listening assignments, provided with scores. As a motivator, I also gave regular listening quizzes, where the students would be required to identify the composer and composition taken from a brief excerpt selected from anywhere in the assigned piece. I was more generous than many, and usually played about a minute of music.

For over twenty years, I assigned the same two string quartets for the stringed instruments module: W. A. Mozart's String Quartet No. 19 in C Major, K. 465 "Dissonance" and Béla Bartók's String Quartet No. 5. I always spent substantial time talking about the differences in string writing between "classical" and "modern," especially in that Bartók utilized an abundance of "extended" techniques, and Mozart almost none at all. One example: the "snap pizz.", where the string is plucked strongly enough to rebound against the fingerboard, is known also as a "Bartók pizz.", even though its use dates back to the 17th century at least. But you'll search nearly in vain to even find ordinary pizzicato anywhere in Mozart.

Two string quartets. One by Mozart, one by Bartók. Keep in mind that all of the students in the course were _music majors_, always in the last couple years of undergraduate study, meaning that they had passed all core music courses in theory, aural skills, and history. Those were prerequisites for my course.

In twenty some odd years of teaching this course, in multiple academic institutions, not once did I ever give a listening quiz where there wasn't at least one student who confused Mozart and Bartók in their answers. Most of the time, the excerpt wasn't even the famous opening of the Mozart! It didn't matter. I even took to playing longer excerpts. Didn't help.

I know; it's baffling. I even added leading questions to the quiz, such as "label any extended techniques you hear in the excerpt." I'm not sure that helped. At least one, often more, still would not successfully distinguish Mozart and Bartók. I took some hope for them in that at least they usually heard it was a string quartet...

Long have I pondered what this meant, what the implications are. That's a topic for another post on another day. I learned a lot by giving listening assignments to music majors.

Cheers!


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## annaw

^^^ Knorf, thanks for your great post! 

I’m very grateful for this choice - I’m fond of Haydn’s quartets but have given heretically little attention to Mozart’s. I have struggled with the whole Classical era quite a lot. Almost since the beginning of my classical music journey, I have been really into Beethoven and Romantic, particularly late Romantic, composers. Because of that, I sometimes just find some of the Classical era works to be too lightweight. I consider this to be my own shortcoming though (which must be urgently fixed!). After listening to ABQ’s recording of this quartet, I realised how much depth and almost Beethovenian atmosphere can be found in this piece, if just the interpretation is right. I’m really excited to discover more different recordings of it!


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> *Arcadia* - this brilliantly recorded Chandos disc stole my heart for the top spot and is one of the finest SQ recordings I've heard recently. Its a truly immense performance, sitting slightly on the more lyrical side of the fence but really highlighting the poetic side of this quartet. A stunning performance from a cracking cycle (I listened to it the other day) and one which took me by surprise.
> 
> View attachment 141453
> 
> 
> So there goes another SQ. As the next one is Mozart and there are tons of recordings I'm going to only listen to a few and be very selective on those I like, otherwise I could be listening 24/7.


Yes well I'm listening to it now, and I can see why you like it so much. The ensemble sound is very equally balanced, nicely engineered recording, a big rich sound, the interpretation it is indeed poetic - more reflective than bravura, I can imagine they'll be exceptional in 6. What it doesn't have is tough sinewiness; it's a bit tubby. I shall be exploring the set. Thanks.


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## Iota

Merl said:


> My top pick
> 
> *Arcadia* - this brilliantly recorded Chandos disc stole my heart for the top spot and is one of the finest SQ recordings I've heard recently. Its a truly immense performance, sitting slightly on the more lyrical side of the fence but really highlighting the poetic side of this quartet. A stunning performance


Yes, an absolutely excellent recording! I agree with everything you say above. Thanks very much for pointing me in their direction! I'll certainly be checking out the rest of the set.

I know what Mandryka means I think by 'tubby' (I don't think he meant it pejoratively?), but they lacked absolutely nothing for me in this performance. There is no need for 'tough sinewiness' if it's not within your conception and your conception works powerfully.

As far as the Mozart K.465 goes, it's a piece I listened to masses in my twenties, but haven't heard for a great number of years. Will get on it.


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## Mandryka

Iota said:


> Yes, an absolutely excellent recording! I agree with everything you say above. Thanks very much for pointing me in their direction! I'll certainly be checking out the rest of the set.
> 
> I know what Mandryka means I think by 'tubby' (I don't think he meant it pejoratively?), but they lacked absolutely nothing for me in this performance. There is no need for 'tough sinewiness' if it's not within your conception and your conception works powerfully.
> 
> .


No, I didn't mean tubby in a bad way, there's probably a better word but it's eluding me at the moment. And yes, sinewyness isn't a sine qua non.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> No, I didn't mean tubby in a bad way, there's probably a better word but it's eluding me at the moment. And yes, sinewyness isn't a sine qua non.


There are so many ways to play that quartet and I'd usually go for a more rough-house and dramatic readiing but that one just sounded right even though I didn't think it would be to my taste. Shows you that the quartet and recording in unison, when realised well, can take a lot of alternative styles. I know what you meant by 'tubby' Mandryka and didn't see it as a negative. Did you mean warm, lyrical full? Lol. I listened to the rest of the set and was silimarly very impressed. Its not as taut as some, sinewy as others or fierce as a few but it has a quality that really resonated with me. Tbh, there's a performance for everyone out there, whatever your preferred style. Bear in mind that *for that particular quartet* my favourite was the Arcadia but it probably might not be for another Bartok SQ (although the 6th is just as delicious). There were some excellent ones which didn't make it into my top picks and I'm sure some will prefer some of those. It's gonna be much more difficult with the Mozart as unless it's totally cocked up most accounts will be at least decent. Saying that there was hardly an average (apart from one) Bartok recording.

Just listened to a pair of Mozarts today on my USB (*Emerson* and *Eder*) and whilst the Eder, on Naxos, was solid, well-recorded and warm I preferred the bite of the Emersons in this one and the better profiled recording.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Just listened to a pair of Mozarts today on my USB (*Emerson* and *Eder*) and whilst the Eder, on Naxos, was solid, well-recorded and warm I preferred the bite of the Emersons in this one and the better profiled recording.


For me the big problem with the Mozart is to somehow make sense of the first movement -- you either have to lighten up the dissonant prelude or darken down the material which follows. Otherwise it just sounds incongruent IMO. It may not be possible.


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## annaw

Mandryka said:


> For me the big problem with the Mozart is to somehow make sense of the first movement -- you either have to lighten up the dissonant prelude or darken down the material which follows. Otherwise it just sounds incongruent IMO. It may not be possible.


Darken down, always :lol: !

With all seriousness though, I don't think I find that very disturbing as the quartet is relatively long. Some other parts of the work can be "darkened" as well, making the whole thing a BIT more heavier. There's certainly room to play with contrasts.


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## Mr McKlinkup

I have just discovered the Arcadia Quartet recording and I love it. It feels naturally fluid and idiomatic. There's something undescribable about the chemistry of this Rumanian quartet and they make a good sound. I waited a long time for a satisfying digital Bartok quartet cycle, and finally found one.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> For me the big problem with the Mozart is to somehow make sense of the first movement -- you either have to lighten up the dissonant prelude or darken down the material which follows. Otherwise it just sounds incongruent IMO. It may not be possible.


Yeah, it sounds a bit odd, doesn't it. Its a bit like a rock band banging out a series of massively distorted power chords then playing the rest of the track with Nile Rogers' choppy disco guitar chords.


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## Knorf

I've been thinking about the striking introduction to K. 465, and how it balances "or not" the remainder of the movement. Of course with Mozart's instrumental music looking for a kind of dramatic narrative is mostly very unhelpful; there is at the core only an ineffable (by any other means) musical logic unto itself. This isn't Beethoven; fate is not knocking at the door.

For me, I like it and don't question it.

However, I concur that it is an error to make more of it than what it is, to inflate it as something portentous in a Wagnerian sense. It's just not. It's also not, for example, the minor-mode sections of the Overture to _Don Giovanni_. There's no story behind it, no Giovanni fated to be dragged off to Hell.

The closest non-musical picture I can come up with would be some early, misty morning, just before sunrise. It's gloomy; this prompts introspection, and confrontation of difficult memories. But soon enough, the sun is revealed, the mist evaporates, and we have a bright, warm day. That's all.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My favorite movement of the Mozart is the second - it sounds like it has some interesting chromatic harmony things going on throughout that maintain interest throughout. However the rest of it (outside of the introduction) I find to be slightly too long and exemplifies my reaction to a lot of Mozart in that it sounds very pretty but doesn’t really affect me in any way. Don’t get me wrong, Mozart is my 15th favorite composer or so. However I really need to be in a specific mood to appreciate his music so I’m sure I will love it when I revisit it throughout the week. The Italiano recording was exemplary in warmth, tone quality, balance, and lyricism; all reasons why they are one of my favorite quartets.


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## Mandryka

It would be interesting if anyone with access to a university library could get hold of Simon Keefe's book _Mozart's Viennese Instrumental Music _(Woodbridge, 2007.) There's a chapter in it called " An integrated 'dissonance': Mozart's 'Haydn' Quartets and the slow introduction of K. 465"


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## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> I've been thinking about the striking introduction to K. 465, and how it balances "or not" the remainder of the movement. Of course with Mozart's instrumental music looking for a kind of dramatic narrative is mostly very unhelpful; there is at the core only an ineffable (by any other means) musical logic unto itself. This isn't Beethoven; fate is not knocking at the door.
> 
> For me, I like it and don't question it.
> 
> However, I concur that it is an error to make more of it than what it is, to inflate it as something portentous in a Wagnerian sense. It's just not. It's also not, for example, the minor-mode sections of the Overture to _Don Giovanni_. There's no story behind it, no Giovanni fated to be dragged off to Hell.
> 
> The closest non-musical picture I can come up with would be some early, misty morning, just before sunrise. It's gloomy; this prompts introspection, and confrontation of difficult memories. But soon enough, the sun is revealed, the mist evaporates, and we have a bright, warm day. That's all.


Well, the stark contrast you have in the first movement is a strange thing, and I wonder whether there are any other examples of such extreme contrast in Mozart or indeed Haydn. It's such a striking gesture it seems to me to demand explanation.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Well, the stark contrast you have in the first movement is a strange thing, and I wonder whether there are any other examples of such extreme contrast in Mozart or indeed Haydn. It's such a striking gesture it seems to me to demand explanation.


You mentioned earlier that there are other examples of the time and later who have used the slow introduction to faster music:



> Why should this trope, a slow dissonant prelude to basically cheerful jaunty music, be so common in classical music, here in Mozart, but there are many examples in Haydn and even Beethoven did it in the 4th symphony? What's it about? What does the intro tell us about the way to play the rest of the movement.


Mozart often starts works with a flourish or "announcement". I can't say what this slow introduction means but in general it seems to work partly by making the faster music seem brighter than it would if it had just started fast from the start. But, conversely, with this quartet the slow uncomfortable start always (mostly I have listened to the Alban Berg Quartet recording so this may be more about their take on it) sounds a little sad and pensive to me and this pensiveness leaks into the faster brighter music at first and then slowly dissipates. I could imagine feeling a little down before going out to a party and then slowly warming up as the faster music unfurls.

Mozart's use of the slow introduction device is more stark in the 39th symphony, where the slow introduction is quite dramatic and you can hear that something is being held back which Mozart releases in, at first, a rather genial way which then becomes grand.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> You mentioned earlier that there are other examples of the time and later who have used the slow introduction to faster music:
> 
> Mozart often starts works with a flourish or "announcement". I can't say what this slow introduction means but in general it seems to work partly by making the faster music seem brighter than it would if it had just started fast from the start. But, conversely, with this quartet the slow uncomfortable start always (mostly I have listened to the Alban Berg Quartet recording so this may be more about their take on it) sounds a little sad and pensive to me and this pensiveness leaks into the faster brighter music at first and then slowly dissipates. I could imagine feeling a little down before going out to a party and then slowly warming up as the faster music unfurls.
> 
> Mozart's use of the slow introduction device is more stark in the 39th symphony, where the slow introduction is quite dramatic and you can hear that something is being held back which Mozart releases in, at first, a rather genial way which then becomes grand.


Yes, maybe this is just a sort of generalisation of French overtures. And fantasies followed by fugues, like K 608.

By the way, looking at reviews from Simon Keene's book, he seems to argue that the intro of 465 is made up of music from the five other quartets in the series. And that in 465 we see Mozart introducing some new style ideas which he developed later.

WHERE HAVE ALL THE MOZARTIANS GONE? Just when you need them they vanish.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Yes, maybe this is just a sort of generalisation of French overtures. And fantasies followed by fugues, like K 608.


It may be the performances I am listening to but I don't think it as simple as a mere contrast. The disturbed mood of the introduction doesn't just vanish. It clears slowly.


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## annaw

I wonder, could the dissonance have something to do with the fact that it was dedicated to Haydn who also had included similar agitated elements in his music? Considering that it was composed during the period of _Sturm und Drang_, I wouldn't be overly surpised if the different prominent ideas of that era had something to do with Mozart including such a dissonance in his work. It seems to be thought that at least Haydn did so, even if unknowingly.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> It may be the performances I am listening to but I don't think it as simple as a mere contrast. The disturbed mood of the introduction doesn't just vanish. It clears slowly.


My impression was that it vanishes immediately after the prelude finishes though some dissonance returns quite prominently towards the end of the movement. But I should know better than to comment, we all hear different things!


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## Enthusiast

^ The dissonance may finish but the rather wistful mood takes time to dissipate, I think.


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## Mandryka

From a _Journal of the American Musicaological Society_ review of Keefe's book -- full of food for thought

https://online.ucpress.edu/jams/article/61/3/615/50605/Review-Mozart-s-Viennese-Instrumental-Music-A



> Few would disagree with his choice of K. 465, and in particular the notoriously chromatic slow introduction to its first movement, as a "climactic
> work" in this genre. He sees the six "Haydn" quartets as a tightly knit, very
> carefully planned set and characterizes the introduction of K. 465 as an "integration of musical procedures from the first five 'Haydn' quartets" (p. 104).
> Keefe demonstrates this by way of a specific passage from each of the other
> quartets that he ties to K. 465, stating that the composer quite intentionally
> "foreshadows the K. 465 Adagio in each of his preceding five quartets"
> (p. 100). This is a very different claim from showing that there are passages in
> the previous quartets that anticipate, or may be stylistically linked to, the opening of K. 465.
> Keefe views the "collective invocations of [the first five 'Haydn' quartets] at
> the opening of K. 465" as a carefully planned strategy, one about whose motivations he is willing to speculate. "Mozart could conceivably have intended
> invocations of his own quartets in the K. 465 Adagio as a complement to his
> invocations of Haydn's Op. 33 set in [some of the earlier works in Mozart's
> 'Haydn' set]" (p. 103). But the stylistic connections that Keefe adduces, while
> for the most part convincing in themselves, do not persuade me that Mozart
> intended the introduction of K. 465 either to "invoke" the earlier quartets or
> to sum up the cycle


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## Merl

I've cherry-picked a few performances up to now to listen to and the one which dissipates the opening the slowest and keeps the mood darker the most successfully is the *Jess Quartet Wien* (a quartet I've never heard of and a recording I was oblivious to). Its a live recording that I found on Spotify and I really enjoyed it. The audience obviously agreed as it's greeted with rapturous applause at the end.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I've cherry-picked a few performances up to now to listen to and the one which dissipates the opening the slowest and keeps the mood darker the most successfully is the *Jess Quartet Wien* (a quartet I've never heard of and a recording I was oblivious to). Its a live recording that I found on Spotify and I really enjoyed it. The audience obviously agreed as it's greeted with rapturous applause at the end.


I'm listening to the 1st movement of the Jess Quartet Wien recording at the moment and, indeed, they manage to do it rather convincingly without making the first Adagio passage feel separated from the rest of the piece. The last few seconds of the dissonance section introduce the following joyous Allegro very nicely, making the transition sound more natural.

EDIT: Just finished it. A truly charming recording and interpretation. It didn't sound constantly naively joyous and had a nice dramatic momentum. Really nice find, Merl!


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## Mandryka

Just thinking of non-HIP performances for the moment, Hagen take an interesting and challenging approach in this, in their big DG set. There’s a more recent recording on DVD too, well worth exploring. 

Juilliard on Testament also, they are particularly tense.

There’s a very old one that I’ve been listening to too, from The Capet Quartet.


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## Merl

I manged to squeeze in my *Italliano* CD and tried *Petersen* from Spotify last night. The Itallianos were as terrific as I remembered but the Petersens were surprisingly a big no-no. Not a pleasant recorded sound at all and I was totally unconvinced by the performance too. I'm not even going to bother with that scratchy old *Barchet* set that I got in the cheap Vox Box a while ago. Those recordings sounded horribly dated, thin and dry so I've never returned to them since. I can also rule out the *Klenke* Quartet. I played that last month as it was on the car USB until last week, when I removed it. Sweet recording and pleasant play-through but it all sounded as if it was a case of going through the motions. I couldn't stomach the *Capet*, Mandryka, as the sound is horrendous. It sounded like they were playing in a fish and chip shop with both friers cooking off a new batch of chips.


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## Mandryka

I think Capet is a good glimpse into past styles, with portamento etc. There's also the Pro Arte.


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## Simplicissimus

annaw said:


> I'm listening to the 1st movement of the Jess Quartet Wien recording at the moment and, indeed, they manage to do it rather convincingly without making the first Adagio passage feel separated from the rest of the piece. The last few seconds of the dissonance section introduce the following joyous Allegro very nicely, making the transition sound more natural.
> 
> EDIT: Just finished it. A truly charming recording and interpretation. It didn't sound constantly naively joyous and had a nice dramatic momentum. Really nice find, Merl!


I'm also very happy that Merl brought this recording to our attention, and I agree with what annaw says about it. I've been listening to it streaming at 16-bit/44.1 kHz/FLAC, and through my system the sound quality is excellent with an intimate sound stage and clear and tasteful stereo imaging. I really feel like I'm at the live performance in the Mozarthaus in Wien! I find this interpretation deeper and truer than the Guarneris', which is my reference.


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## Merl

I just listened to the *Amadeus Quartet* and it was less 'dissonance' and more 'dinner party'. Far too fluffy, gentle and dare i say 'boring'. Played immaculately but rather uninteresting. Sorry to be so negative. Ive listened to a few others as well so i'll post my thoughts on those later.


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## realdealblues

Merl said:


> I just listened to the *Amadeus Quartet* and it was less 'dissonance' and more 'dinner party'. Far too fluffy, gentle and dare i say 'boring'. Played immaculately but rather uninteresting. Sorry to be so negative. Ive listened to a few others as well so i'll post my thoughts on those later.


Hmm, I don't remember it being quite that bad. Maybe I will listen to all of my recordings of the "Dissonance" Quartet tomorrow...


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## Knorf

realdealblues said:


> Hmm, I don't remember it being quite that bad. Maybe I will listen to all of my recordings of the "Dissonance" Quartet tomorrow...


Consider it an assignment. We expect a report.


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## Mandryka

I was surprised to find that my favourite string quartet recorded it, though first impressions reveal a mainstream vision, but none the worse for that I guess.









This one caught my attention for its seriousness, quite a distinctive vision - I suspect this is marmite.









Neither of the above really my cup of tea, at the end of the day.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I . . . tried *Petersen* from Spotify last night. The Itallianos were as terrific as I remembered but the Petersens were surprisingly a big no-no. Not a pleasant recorded sound at all and I was totally unconvinced by the performance too.


The CDs sound OK and I am totally convinced by this edgy tense performance, like a coiled spring. Love it. Big yes yes.


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## Merl

I usually like the Petersens, Mandryka, but I tried again and I still don't like it. As regards the Amadeus, RDB, it wasn't 'bad' I just found it too 'nice' and safe. Others I've checked out have been the excellent *Ebene* recording which is much darker than many others (killer last movement too), *Casals* (delicate but beautifully phrased, *Mosaiques* (totally convincing and superb, sprung rhythms), *Lindsays* (no), *Guarneri* (very decent), *Auryn* (rich sound) and *Brentano* (colourful with great dynamics).


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## adriesba

Does the next round start this coming Sunday? I'd like to join in on the next quartet.


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## annaw

I listened to *Quatuor Van Kuijk* yesterday. It should be a modern instrument ensemble, as far as I know, but the playing sounds somewhat HIP-ish to me and has quite little vibrato. I liked their playing and the recording sound was wonderful. The interpretation was nicely dark, though I felt it could have benefitted from more momentum at times (maybe I was just too tired myself ). An interesting recording, I must say.

I also listened to the *Leipzig*er's recording yesterday. I really liked it! I love the sound of their recordings and their playing was very delightful, blending nice, and interpretation thought-through. I'm rather fond of their warm and full tone.


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## Enthusiast

In the last few days I have listened to the Jess (via Spotify), the Mosaiques, the Alban Berg, the Leipzig and the Chiaroscuro recordings. I think I have enjoyed the ABQ and the Mosaiques the best. I found the Leipzig a little fast and driven but did enjoy both the Jess and the Chiaroscuro. But I am not really wanting to compare them and will probably not listen to any others ... except, well, maybe the Italiano. It is good to hear a few different recordings to get a sense of what can be found in the music.


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## Malx

Today I have listened to the three recordings I have in my collection of this Quartet. *The Alban Berg Quartet, The Kuijken Quartet & The Chilingirian Quartet.*. All three produced enjoyable enough performances of the piece, to my ears the transition from the opening Adiago was probably executed best by the Alban Bergs although the Chilingirians' transition was effortless primarily because the opening adagio wasn't as dark as the other two.
One noticeable difference between the three was the decisions taken over repeats the Kuijken's recording appears to take all repeats making the first movement come in at over 14 minutes.
I will refrain from trying other recordings as this will result in my wallet suffering, yet again!
Overall it was an interesting exercise listening to a work I hadn't visited for years - good choice.


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## Merl

Up to now, today, I've played the *Ysaye* and *Italiano* (again). The Ysaye was very good but the Itallianos are on a different level.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Up to now, today, I've played the *Ysaye* and *Italiano* (again). The Ysaye was very good but the Itallianos are on a different level.


I thought Ysaye was one of the more interesting ones.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> I thought Ysaye was one of the more interesting ones.


It is but that Italiano recording is special for me. 

Edit: I crammed in some more tonight. *Kuijken* were pleasant but I found the sound world a little sparse. The *Juilliards* were very good but slightly let down by the recording. The *Takacs* were sweet-toned and their range of dynamics was a winner. *Alban Berg (live) * were more impressive than their studio outing and a very successful performance but the winner tonight was the *Chilingirian Quartet*, whose account just seemed fuller and better characterised than the opposition.

Edit 2: just finished listening to the *Hungarian Quartet *from the early 60s and that's a really involving performance. Very brisk speeds and lots of excitement. Excellent.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Sorry I haven't participated more this week, I just haven't been in the mood for this kind of music. I will try and hear a couple of the version y'all have been talking up within the next couple days.

Next week: *Mandryka*'s turn to choose.

Adriesba, welcome to the thread! If you want to nominate some week, maybe we can slot you in two or three weeks so you can get some inspiration?


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## adriesba

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sorry I haven't participated more this week, I just haven't been in the mood for this kind of music. I will try and hear a couple of the version y'all have been talking up within the next couple days.
> 
> Next week: *Mandryka*'s turn to choose.
> 
> Adriesba, welcome to the thread! If you want to nominate some week, maybe we can slot you in two or three weeks so you can get some inspiration?


Sure, that will work for me.


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## Enthusiast

OK of those I listened to - ABQ, Italiano, Jess, Leipzig, Mosaiques, Chiaroscuro and Hungarian (VOX) - I very strongly prefer and cannot choose between ABQ, Mosaiques and the Hungarian. I liked the Italian, the Jess and the Chiaroscuro but not as much. The Italian is the most difficult for me to place - some aspects of their approach are really compelling but their rather trudging minuet is very off-putting for me. I know some performers like to play Classical minuets in quite a square way and there are no doubt those who think that is the way to play them but I don't. The winner for me is the quartet itself. I knew it before - I thought I knew it quite well - but have found much more in it and have been left feeling that, compared to what they deserve, I have almost neglected Mozart's quartets.


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## realdealblues

Knorf said:


> Consider it an assignment. We expect a report.


Well, I listened to the 5 "stereo" recordings I have on disc (I have a few mono ones that I didn't feel like digging out).

The approach I liked best was Alban Berg's 1st recording from 1977, everything felt "right" and had perfect flow between each movement.

My next favorite was the Amadeus Quartet. I have to disagree with my buddy Merl as I didn't feel it dinner party at all, in fact I felt the Andante cantabile movement was probably the saddest sounding recording I've heard of that particular movement. It would have probably beat the Alban Berg but their phrasing didn't quite sound as natural in the Menuetto as the Alban Berg's first take.

After that would be the Quartetto Italiano followed by the live Alban Berg Quartett recording from 1985 and coming in last place the 1989 Alban Berg Quartett recording but honestly none of those 3 were really in close proximity to the earlier Alban and Amadeus Quartet for me. Which is funny as I now see my buddy Merl found the Italiano recording special where I felt in this work they lacked a bit of the Viennese flair I think this work really needs. Different ears folks, we've all got them :lol:


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sorry I haven't participated more this week, I just haven't been in the mood for this kind of music. I will try and hear a couple of the version y'all have been talking up within the next couple days.


I too have been struggling to get on board with this piece this week alas. I sometimes get like this with composers/pieces, the door just seems shut, just have to wait it out.

Having said that, the opening Adagio bars and the final Allegro Molto movement seem to remain perfectly accessible. And in those bleeding chunks I'd say that the Ysaye perform very well, dancing through the various nuances of light in the last movement delightfully. The Italiano perhaps most eloquent in the opening Adagio.

On the Adagio and its connection to the following Allegro, fwiw I hear a sort of connection between the 1st violin's five note theme in bars 4 - 5 (can be seen here) and its speeded up counterpart in a section of melody in the subsequent Allegro. Though it's perhaps tenuous and hardly smoking gun material.


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## Merl

realdealblues said:


> .... Which is funny as I now see my buddy Merl found the Italiano recording special where I felt in this work they lacked a bit of the Viennese flair I think this work really needs. Different ears folks, we've all got them :lol:


Reading back through the posts on this quartet everyone seems to be picking a different favourite and hearing different things but, for me, that just shows how many quality recordings of this quartet we have. I've been listening (and relistening in some cases) to this quartet all week and there really are some tremendous accounts of this SQ. I'd say that only the Lindsays performance is one I really didn't like but I usually like them. I know I was a little negative about the Amadeus (and after relistening perhaps a little too harsh) but it certainly wasn't unpleasant. I don't think I'm going to be able to sort a personal top pick on these cos Ive really liked so many even though stylistically they are all very different. I still have a few to listen to later so who knows. Btw, I don't expect anyone to take my opinions as sacrosanct, they're just opinions and they are how I felt when I listened to them. I'll probably think differently in a month's time because it depends what I'm in the mood for. Great comments from everyone, btw
This is definitely my favourite TC thread. I'm curious what Mandryka is going to pick now. 

Ps. I just found this quote on a Mozart SQ review. I think it sums it up perfectly....

_"As ever with Mozart string quartets there is no such thing as a perfect performance. Each recording has its own individual qualities, and it is up to each individual as to what kind of approach they will prefer." _


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## realdealblues

Merl said:


> Reading back through the posts on this quartet everyone seems to be picking a different favourite and hearing different things but, for me, that just shows how many quality recordings of this quartet we have. I've been listening (and relistening in some cases) to this quartet all week and there really are some tremendous accounts of this SQ. I'd say that only the Lindsays performance is one I really didn't like but I usually like them. I know I was a little negative about the Amadeus (and after relistening perhaps a little too harsh) but it certainly wasn't unpleasant. I don't think I'm going to be able to sort a personal top pick on these cos Ive really liked so many even though stylistically they are all very different. I still have a few to listen to later so who knows. Btw, I don't expect anyone to take my opinions as sacrosanct, they're just opinions and they are how I felt when I listened to them. I'll probably think differently in a month's time because it depends what I'm in the mood for. Great comments from everyone, btw
> This is definitely my favourite TC thread. I'm curious what Mandryka is going to pick now.


I'm with ya  We agree on a LOT of stuff, but there's always a few we don't 
I'll always be far less versed in String Quartet's than you mate. Outside of Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Dvorak, Mendelssohn and Haydn they don't get much play from me, although a lot more lately since I got that Alban Berg box set.


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## Mandryka

I have three quartets in mind, and I would appreciate your advice 

Quartet A: Only one recorded performance, not on YouTube, but it is on Spotify etc. 

Quartet B: For a quartet of viols and electronically modified. Only one recorded performance, it’s on YouTube, Spotify etc. 

Quartet C: Well known and many recordings.

Quartet B is a recent discovery of mine, like yesterday, so we’d be exploring it together. Quartet A is something I know well and for me, though disorienting at first, really repaid repeated listening. Quartet C is by a well loved Classic FM style composer who doesn’t interest me in the slightest, but he has influenced one composer who does interest me.


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## Enthusiast

I am not a member of Spotify. I use it but with ugly interruptions from advertisers so I try to avoid it when possible. I doubt I would listen more than once to a work that was only on Spotify. YouTube is better.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I am not a member of Spotify. I use it but with ugly interruptions from advertisers so I try to avoid it when possible. I doubt I would listen more than once to a work that was only on Spotify. YouTube is better.


And how do you feel about a quartet which is for four string instruments but is not for two violins, a viola and a cello? And oh, the sound has some electronic modification.


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## Enthusiast

It wouldn't trouble me at all. Sounds intriguing.


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## Mandryka

OK, a prize of a used COVID mask for the first person who can guess what it is.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka, B. probably wouldn’t be up my alley but I’m good with whatever you choose. It’s your pick!


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## Mandryka

Oh I was possibly wrong, Quartet A does seem to be on YouTube after all.


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## Merl

Whatever you want. Your choice, M. I'll listen to anything. Whether I'll like it is another matter but knock yourself out..


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> Oh I was possibly wrong, Quartet A does seem to be on YouTube after all.


But it turns out that youtube won't play gaplessly which in this case kills the music, which is a large playlist of short tracks. So we're left with B and C.


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## adriesba

Mandryka said:


> But it turns out that youtube won't play gaplessly which in this case kills the music, which is a large playlist of short tracks. So we're left with B and C.


Is it tracks from an album in a playlist, or separate videos of a video performance? If it's tracks, they might work on YouTube Music, or they could be on another streaming service.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I've been really busy with the past few weeks but I managed to sneak in a moment to listen to the Italiano. I've never listened to this work before, but I really enjoyed it in spite of not really being in a Mozart mood.


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## annaw

I also finally got around to listening to Quartetto Italiano’s recording. It’s a very stunning account of the work and they managed to bring out some details that had otherwise escaped my attention. I particularly liked the dynamics of the second movement and the phrasing of the last one. Very enjoyable!


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## Mandryka

I've made a decision about the next quartet -- *Pascal Dusapin's Quartet VII*, which has the nickname (for some completely inexplicable reason) _Open Time. _

There's only one recording, by Arditti, it looks like this









You'll find it on all the usual streaming platforms and on youtube starting from track 6 on this playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lNXvFusOrGnkqXnmKFqsFvcqzQu9eqsQM

IMO youtube is a problem for it because it inserts a gap between each track -- which is not at all good.

Naxos Music Library has the booklet -- which has an essay which is too difficult for me

https://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/booklets/AEO/booklet-AECD1753.pdf

Why have I chosen this quartet? The reason is this: I believe it is very accessible to those who are interested in the avant garde and those whose listening is more firmly entrenched in the older styles. In particular, it has a graspable structure: it is a nice old fashioned set of variations just like the Diabellies or the Goldbergs. And if you listen hard, there's even a tune.

I hope that you will be able to access it -- access, and the fact that there's only one interpretation available, are my only two anxieties about choosing it. If we can overcome those things, I really expect many people will find it a rewarding piece of music to explore, to get to know.


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## Enthusiast

I wasn't expecting that! It's a record I have. As you say, it is not too disturbing for those who don't like to venture into the extreme. I'll enjoy giving it some concentrated listening.


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## sbmonty

I've listened to Mozart's Dissonance by Alban Berg, the Emerson's, the Talich and the Esterhazy Quartet, the latter being a HIP performance. All were enjoyable. The ABQ was probably my favourite recording. Followed closely by the Emerson's. As has happened before, I've now started listening more closely to the other late quartets. Great stuff. Thanks again!

I will start listening to the Pascal Dusapin this morning. Streaming on Naxos. Thanks

Mandryka, can you reveal your other two competitors? B and C.


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## Mandryka

sbmonty said:


> I've listened to Mozart's Dissonance by Alban Berg, the Emerson's, the Talich and the Esterhazy Quartet, the latter being a HIP performance. All were enjoyable. The ABQ was probably my favourite recording. Followed closely by the Emerson's. As has happened before, I've now started listening more closely to the other late quartets. Great stuff. Thanks again!
> 
> I will start listening to the Pascal Dusapin this morning. Streaming on Naxos. Thanks
> 
> Mandryka, can you reveal your other two competitors? B and C.


B was River Mouth Echoes by Maja Ratkje. C was Janacek's 2nd quartet (because of its relationship to Rihm's 3rd Quartet.)


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> B was River Mouth Echoes by Maja Ratkje. C was Janacek's 2nd quartet (because of its relationship to Rihm's 3rd Quartet.)


Thank god for that. I have quite a few Janaceks and there are loads of recordings. Only one recording of this one will be great and give me a breather. Lol @ "if you listen hard there's even a tune"


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## flamencosketches

I know I've been away from this thread for some time, but string quartets are creeping back into my listening rotation after a good few months of burnout... Last minute thoughts on Mozart...:

I have the Melos only:










The only explanation I can come up with for the dissonant introduction: Mozart envisioned the movement like a tragicomic opera overture. It's a dramatic scene of foreboding, foreshadowing for the tragedy to come. This sense of dramatic tragedy then recedes into the background, but maybe never totally goes away. The way I imagine overtures is as a microcosm or a symbol for the entirety of the action to come, so maybe we're seeing some kind of dramatic arc play out. The second movement is a melancholic aria of sorts. I don't know, maybe this doesn't make any sense. I'm not much of an opera guy anyway.

That's as far as I've gotten to this point. If I have any more thoughts I'll append them after finishing.


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## Merl

After listening to Dissonance all week I've put together a quick list of the ones I really liked. There really were a lot of impressive recordings of this one so here's those I found particularly appealing. Huge range of styles...

*Emerson* (on another day this would be in my top 5. Fantastic performance with panache, attack, tenderness and the hardest hitting one here). 
*Italiano* (my imprint and the one I know best and still love but it was trumped by others and yes the minuet is a little stiff, RDB) 
*Mosaique* (I love the sound the Mosaiques make here. Its a sparser sound world but purity of tone makes this a total winner). 
*Casals* (beautiful ensemble and recording. Whisker off the top) 
*Jess *(a lucky find and super performance) 
*Alban Berg* (see below) 
*Alban Berg Live* (this just edges the studio version for me. The ABQs excel across the board with their classy readings of the Dissonance) 
*Leipziger* (that sound slightly ruins this for me, still but wonderful playing) 
*Takacs* (lovely tone and use of dynamics) 
*Belcea* (superb recorded sound)
*Amati* (if you haven't checked this one out do so. It's impressive throughout) 
*Alexander* (great all-rounder)

*If pushed for a list I found extra special I'd probably choose...
*
*Chilingirian* - I just think that as a whole this is a thoroughly well- conceived and beautifully performed account. 
*Orford* - nice to have the Orfords up there after they haven't been very convincing in previous comparisons. A really impressive, hearty SQ performance in close but not claustrophobic sound. 
*Engegard* - this spritely, spirited caught my attention from the off. Quick and incisive playing in a lovely acoustic. 
*Hungarian* - another quick one but the Hungarians nail it. Vivacious, weighty and with a real purity of line. 
*Ebene* - darkest performance here but that just makes it all the more enjoyable.





































However theres so little between that lot that I'd happily accept any in my Xmas stocking. Mozart was a good pick. There were quite a few I didn't get to but tbh I could have been here for a month.


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## annaw

Huge thanks for the thorough summary, Merl  ! I think I have to revisit this quartet to hear some of those performances I haven't listened yet.


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## Simplicissimus

Dusapin is new to me. Interesting. I can’t find Quatuor VII on Amazon HD (lots of other contemporary music by the Arditti Quartet, though), so I will listen to it on YT.


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## flamencosketches

I'm not sure whether or not this link will work, but the Dusapin is on Qobuz for $6.29 in CD quality...:

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/d...ue-de-radio-france-pascal-rophe/3760058360378


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## Iota

Have now listened to the Dusapin, doing it in two goes, and by the second visit the language had already become much clearer to me. 

I agree it seems a very approachable work of its kind (Var's 16 &17 seemed almost like sth by Steve Reich!) full of character from flamenco/slightly mad jazz riffing, to rarified and poignant (Var 14 e.g). 
I found the balance, connections and variety between the variations worked very well, binding them as well as creating narrative momentum. By the end the theme seems to have been pared down to a skeletal version of itself. I enjoyed it, an engaging piece, I'll definitely be returning.

Nice choice!


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## Merl

Iota said:


> Have now listened to the Dusapin, doing it in two goes, and by the second visit the language had already become much clearer to me.
> 
> I agree it seems a very approachable work of its kind (Var's 16 &17 seemed almost like sth by Steve Reich!) full of character from flamenco/slightly mad jazz riffing, to rarified and poignant (Var 14 e.g).
> I found the balance, connections and variety between the variations worked very well, binding them as well as creating narrative momentum. By the end the theme seems to have been pared down to a skeletal version of itself. I enjoyed it, an engaging piece, I'll definitely be returning.
> 
> Nice choice!


Ive only done a quick skip thru (I'll listen properly later) but I too heard some Steve Reich in there. The beginning and end are more sparse but seems interesting and heard some nice pizzicato there. Interesting.


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## Mandryka

I hadn't noticed the connection to Reich, but in truth I hardly know Reich's music. It just seems so much more sensual than any Reich I remember, and so much less predictable. But yes, maybe XVI and XVII. For a connection to another composer, the sound world of the music reminds me of André Boucourechliev, though I can't explain it. Here's Boucourechliev's Archipel II


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## Mandryka

Actually var 16 made me think of Bernhard Lang - who is also influenced by Deleuze - Deleuze wrote a lot on repetition and identity which seems to have caught the attention of European composers, difficult stuff for me. This is a quartet based in some way on Haydn's Seven Last Words.


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## Iota

Mandryka said:


> It just seems so much more sensual than any Reich I remember, and so much less predictable.


That may well be true, Reich and most minimalism holds little interest for me either. But 16 & 17 sparked an immediate connection with it nonetheless.



Mandryka said:


> Actually var 16 made me think of Bernhard Lang - who is also influenced by Deleuze - Deleuze wrote a lot on repetition and identity which seems to have caught the attention of European composers, difficult stuff for me. This is a quartet based in some way on Haydn's Seven Last Words.


Yes, I see what you mean. And having listened to the first ten minutes of that, I found that an interesting piece.


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## Josquin13

Sorry, but I'm still on the quartet from last week, etc....

For me, Mozart's K. 465 is easily the finest quartet that we've listened to so far. Mozart even outdoes Haydn here (which is really saying something). I'd unhesitatingly place it on my personal list of top five quartets that anyone has composed. I'd also say this quartet represents Mozart at his best. It's an ingenious work.

I listened to the Chilingirian Quartet, who I've loved in Mozart's 6 "Haydn" Quartets since I first bought their set on 3 CRD LPs back in the 1980s (& btw, it took a bunch of less than satisfying purchases before I finally found a set that I felt did justice to the music). I like that the Chilingirians don't try to over interpret Mozart's quartets. I agree that their opening to the Dissonance is more "wistful" than edgy and angst ridden, and therefore no big gear shift is required. It simply works. They bring just the right amount of classical restraint to the movement (& btw, so does the Gewandhaus Quartett--see link below). I find their whole interpretation beautiful and deeply satisfying, musically. By the way, the performance can be heard on You Tube, for those that don't have it: 



.

The star of the quartet is the first violinist, in my view, who must play brilliantly for the rest of the ensemble to do justice to the work. The cellist is crucial, too. Speaking of which, I heard Cuarteto Casals play the "Dissonance" in concert several years ago and they were incredibly fine--some of the best quartet playing I've heard live. The two brothers, Abel Tomàs Realp, their 1st violinist, and Arnau Tomàs Realp, their cellist, played brilliantly--they're great musicians. Abel Tomàs in particular relished the dissonance & it was wonderful, and I'd say even more so than Levon Chilingirian, who's a bit more understated (though wonderful, too). I bought their recording after the concert (& they signed it for me backstage), but on record the experience wasn't quite the same. For me, K. 465 has to be heard live to fully appreciate what Mozart is doing here, how incredibly inventive he is, and just how much fun he's having. & of course it has to be played by an outstanding quartet, who understand the period style of the piece--otherwise, it can all become too romantic. It helped that Cuarteto Casals uses period bows and yet plays on modern strings--that way, they offer the best of both worlds. Despite that I enjoyed hearing them play the work even more in concert, their recording is still one of the best & most insightful performances I've heard on disc: 



.

Among other K. 465 recordings that I've enjoyed over the years, I'd also count the Alban Berg Quartett (on Teldec), Gewandhaus Quartett (on video), Quatour Mosaiques (on period instruments), Smetana Quartet (on EMI or Testament in the mid-1970s, as well as their 1957 Supraphon recording), Quartetto Italiano, and the Melos Quartett as exceptional in this music, too. It could be argued that the Smetana Quartet and Quartetto Italiano find a greater emotional & psychological depth in this music than other groups, as both quartets are very expressive in this music. But they also don't have quite the same degree of technical brilliance & polish as some of the more current groups, like Cuarteto Casals & the Gewandhaus Quartett, and that does count for something in this very 'classical' music, in my opinion.

Gewandhaus Quartett: One of the aspects that I like most about the following performance is that there's no 'out of place' late romanticism in their interpretation:





I also listened to and liked the Takacs Quartet on You Tube: 



. I'd say they are a great Haydn quartet that play Mozart well. But they aren't as insightful as Cuarteto Casals is, in my view. I really hope the Casals will finish their ongoing Mozart SQ cycle (as their survey of Mozart's Early SQs is one of the best on disc, IMO). Backstage after the concert, their violist told me that they intended to, but lately they've become sidetracked by their Beethoven series (which is finally done & out).

As for the Emerson Quartet, in the past, I've waxed and waned over their Mozart. At first I didn't like it, finding their interpretations neurotic and a bit glum or morose, & humorless. But it has grown on me. I recall that their opening to the Dissonance is edgier--they make it sound more like a late Beethoven quartet. In concert, I find there is something slightly perfunctory or routine about their playing of this work: 



, but the DG studio recording is a lot better and warmer: 




On first impression, I found the Ebene Quartet too operatic in this quartet. Their interpretation didn't work for me.

Like Beethoven's Op. 132, this is a very hard quartet to get right and do full justice to. It tends to separate the great Mozart quartets from the good or only average ones.

If I may, I also wanted to comment on the Nielsen and Bartok quartets, which I listened to enthusiastically, as well, but didn't have the time to write about.

I enjoyed the Nielsen 3rd quartet, & more so than I thought I would. What a remarkable talent he had, so early in his career. I actually listened to all three of his quartets. Nielsen shows such an easy facility for a variety of styles, classical & otherwise. I bet he was a first rate teacher of composition. I also thought the 2nd movement was particularly beautiful & searching, while I found the 3rd movement inventive & fun. You never know what's coming next. For example, I really liked the sudden & surprising pizzicato passages in the 1st & final movements.

The recording I listened to was by the Zapolski Quartet, on Chandos (via YT, since I don't own this music in my collection), and I thought it was a good performance, but I've nothing to compare it to: 




(Then later, I listened to the new Danish String Quartet and slightly preferred them. I thought their 2nd movement was more modern sounding than the Zapolski's, which was interesting.)

Thanks for the introduction. I'll definitely be adding Nielsen's three quartets to my collection at some point.

I also listened to the Bartok 4th, in recordings by the Novak Quartet on Philips, and the Tatrai Quartet on Hungaroton; although I didn't get around to the Parkanyi, Mikrokosmos, or Takacs Quartets, as I had hoped to (& now I want to hear the Arcadia Quartet!, as well). It's a very imaginative work, and I was struck by how ahead of his time Bartok was--there is a very contemporary feel to parts of this music, especially in the third movement, which is great.

I was also struck by how little vibrato the Tatrai Quartet uses, if any. I've noticed that before with the older Hungarian string players. I recall the Hungarian Quartet, for example, doesn't use much vibrato, either, or at least they do so more judiciously than is the norm. I wonder if that is a part of an older string tradition that was perhaps passed down from the age of Mozart, Haydn, & Beethoven, etc., considering that the city of Budapest is such an old world musical capital. But I'm not yet quite sure how I feel about it in Bartok's music... I'd be curious to know what Bartok thought about using so little vibrato in his quartets? It makes his 4th sound spiky and more angular: 



.

--Mandryka, your choice of the Pascal Dusapin quartet is perfectly timed. I've been listening to Dusapin's complete solo piano music over the past couple of months, and have been getting curious about his quartets, wondering if I should purchase them or not. So, it's an excellent choice, for me at least.


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## flamencosketches

^The Emerson sounds great, thanks for the link. I've been meaning to buy a Mozart Haydn quartets set and this just might be the one for me. 

I'll try and get to the Dusapin by the end of the day.


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## annaw

^^Regarding the sparing vibrato of the older Hungarian quartets, I actually stumbled upon an article published in Oxford Music Online which was about the Budapest quartet. Apparently, lack of vibrato was indeed a performance practice of old-school string players during the early 20th century or that's at least what the article seemed to indicate. According to that article, Budapest quartet's playing changed drastically when the leadership passed from Hauser to Roisman. The latter was a new generation string player and used faster, more continuous vibrato than Hauser.

Considering that Kreisler is at least by some regarded as the father of abundant continuous vibrato, it would actually make sense why that performance practice _might_ have become more widespread during the 20th century. I suspect the older players managed to keep the earlier tradition alive, as was the case with the early Budapest quartet (and possibly some other older quartets), during the modern recording era as well. Just an idea .


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## Josquin13

annaw--That's interesting, thanks. I don't think I've ever heard the earliest Budapest Quartet recordings from the 1930s, which was when they built their stellar reputation in Europe. But yes, later incarnations of the group use plenty of vibrato & also scooped their way into notes--it's a very different performance style. By that time there were no longer any of the original Hungarians (or indeed any Hungarians?) left in the quartet.

So, this is a performance practice that Bartok would have been accustomed to, and may have even had in mind for his 6 quartets. I'm no authority on Bartok, does anyone know if there was a string quartet group that he worked closely with--such as an earlier incarnation of the Hungarian Quartet, maybe (or Vegh Quartet)?, just as Shostakovich worked closely with the Fitzwilliam & Beethoven Quartets?

P.S. The sparing vibrato of the older Hungarian string players also gives credence to period performance practices...


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## annaw

Josquin13 said:


> annaw--That's interesting, thanks. I don't think I've ever heard the earliest Budapest Quartet recordings from the 1930s, which was when they built their stellar reputation in Europe. But yes, later incarnations of the group use plenty of vibrato & also scooped their way into notes--it's a very different performance style. By that time there were no longer any of the original Hungarians (or indeed any Hungarians?) left in the quartet.
> 
> So, this is a performance practice that Bartok would have been accustomed to, and may have even had in mind for his 6 quartets. I'm no authority on Bartok, does anyone know if there was a string quartet group that he worked closely with--such as an earlier incarnation of the Hungarian Quartet, maybe (or Vegh Quartet)?, just as Shostakovich worked closely with the Fitzwilliam & Beethoven Quartets?
> 
> P.S. The sparing vibrato of the older Hungarian string players also gives credence to period performance practices...


I'm not well-versed in Bartok at all, but...






This should be the premiere of Bartok's 5th SQ. The quartet was dedicated to Kolisch quartet who also played the premiere performance of Bartok's 6th SQ. The first four were played by Waldbauer-Kerpely Quartet.


----------



## annaw

So, I finally listened to the Dusapin today. It's certainly an interesting work and, as music, I think it's rather easily approachable which is very nice. It has some very interesting sonic structures and I find it fascinating how during some variations (might have been the Variation IV) the otherwise somewhat random sounds become structurally unified due to tempos becoming faster throughout the variation. My main source of confusion with this particular piece is that I don't seem to be able to comprehend it as a whole and as a series of variations. In the sense that I don't entirely understand where these variations themselves come from or what unifies the work.

I opened the booklet Mandryka posted earlier to understand the meaning of this piece better and after reading it for a few minutes I was reminded of my hopeless endeavours of trying to understand Kant's philosophy about a year ago. It's an evidently thought-through work but the booklet is VERY difficult to read and grasp. The unifying aspect of the work seems to have something to do with that "the theme is no longer a theme so much as a principle, a 'programme', which is both everything and nothing". Those "everything" and "nothing" seem to be defined earlier in the essay but I think I need to dive more deeper into it to figure out what they really mean. Does anyone musically more knowledgeable understand the main idea or philosophy behind this piece?

The word of the day: (the principle of) anacrusis-accent-inflexion


----------



## Mandryka

Kant I can manage, Deleuze is more of a challenge. 

Do you think it’s more problematic than The Goldberg Variations, which also have a slightly unexpected theme and has all sorts of surprises like a quodlibet? Or even the Diabelli Variations, where towards the end things go completely off the rails? I find the whole very unified by a sort of sound world, a tone world.


----------



## annaw

Mandryka said:


> Kant I can manage, Deleuze is more of a challenge.
> 
> Do you think it's more problematic than The Goldberg Variations, which also have a slightly unexpected theme and has all sorts of surprises like a quodlibet? Or even the Diabelli Variations, where towards the end things go completely off the rails? I find the whole very unified by a sort of sound world, a tone world.


I don't want to say problematic but I just felt that I need to figure out what is the meaning behind this piece for it to appear more unified. With the Diabelli and the Goldberg variations I still get a rather clear sense of structure and I know that both works spring from one basic theme. Of course the final outcome i.e the final variations might be somewhat far from the original theme but they still get there through a series of variations. With the Dusapin I don't know what the variations are based on (the booklet seems to indicate that there _is_ some idea which justifies the lack of such basic theme). I like your idea of a unifying sound world though. I think I'm good with that explanation for the time being.


----------



## Merl

I can't say I've had the chance to give the Dusapin a proper go but it's structurally an interesting piece. It's had one playthrough but I didn't give it my undivided attention as I was sorting some stuff out at the time and it made littke impression on me because of this. I'll try and get through it with my full attention some time this week but life is silly since weekend and I have limited time from now till sunday. I'll do my best.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I have not spent enough time with the Dusapin this week because, like the Mozart the previous week I just haven't felt up for this kind of music. I do enjoy this kind of academic stimulation for the mind but I have other listening objectives this week. Nonetheless from what I've heard the variation scheme is quite interesting though I was having a tough time detecting the "theme." Like Merl I'll try my best to get it all in but we'll see what happens.

Next week's pick goes to the venerable *Josquin13*. Schedule of future nominators:

Josquin13
Bwv 1050
adriesba
Portamento
Shosty
sbmonty
Merl
Eramire156
Knorf
Simplicissimus
TurnaboutVox
calvinpv
20centrfuge
Iota
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw


----------



## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I have not spent enough time with the Dusapin this week because, like the Mozart the previous week I just haven't felt up for this kind of music. I do enjoy this kind of academic stimulation for the mind but I have other listening objectives this week. Nonetheless from what I've heard the variation scheme is quite interesting though I was having a tough time detecting the "theme." Like Merl I'll try my best to get it all in but we'll see what happens.
> 
> Next week's pick goes to the venerable *Josquin13*. Schedule of future nominators:
> 
> Josquin13
> Bwv 1050
> adriesba
> Portamento
> Shosty
> sbmonty
> Merl
> Eramire156
> Knorf
> Simplicissimus
> TurnaboutVox
> calvinpv
> 20centrfuge
> Iota
> Malx
> BlackAdderLXX
> starthrower
> annaw


Ive already bookmarked my choice for next time but I think it's one Joz likes and I'm 7 weeks away. Now watch him pick it before me. Lol. I have a stand- by just in case though. I finally got the chance for a proper playthrough of the Dusapin in the car (thanks Spotify and Bluetooth). I'm still not sure about it, tbh. Perhaps it's the structure which eludes me or the blurb I've read to accompany this piece. It just feels a little long-winded and rambling. I don't know, but it's still not connected with me at all which is surprising as it's disc-mate SQ6 - Hinterland (which isn't really a fully-blown SQ as it has some orchestral accompaniment) I found to be far more coherent and interesting. I'll try again but this one has yet to float my boat. Who knows, it may click on the 3rd try.


----------



## Enthusiast

^ If someone chooses your choice before you then that is good, isn't it. It effectively gives you two choices.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> ^ If someone chooses your choice before you then that is good, isn't it. It effectively gives you two choices.


No, because I want to pick that one (*Merl stamps his feet the way a 3 year old may do in a tantrum)! My alternative choice will feel like sloppy seconds and I may cry.


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## Knorf

It's true. The tears could flow. There could be prolonged wailing and more than the expected secretion of mucus. It might make every feel a bit awkward.


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## Enthusiast

Well, I certainly hope you won't dish up sloppy seconds. We deserve best quality music.


----------



## Josquin13

Merl--Ha! the odds are against it. Besides, I've got a remarkable string quartet all ready to go, and am excited about my choice--as it's not going to be a quartet that everyone knows, well, probably not (though some may know it...). Plus, musicians love playing this work!--which is always a good sign. There have been a bunch of new recordings over the past 20 years. So, stay tuned... & yes, I would have been pissed if Mandryka had chosen it last week. ;-)

But I thought flamencosketches came before me...? Is he not involved in picking quartets for the group anymore?

As for the Dusapin Quartet, I'm undecided about it. I agree with Merl that "Hinterland"--which I also listened to--is the stronger work, at least, on first impression. However, Google/You Tube kept interrupting each 'Variation" with commercials, and I think that took my focus away from the music, & annoyingly so, which may have effected how I connected to the quartet. Google has become so obnoxious, and it's often the same commercial interruptions over & over again relentlessly. I'm going to listen to the quartet one more time tomorrow, and I'll report back, if I have anything to say. 

One thing I did notice is that the music came to an abrupt halt within certain variations, and I found that odd--though it might have been Google?? If not, it reminded me of the final notes of Bach's Art of the Fugue. Which makes me wonder if Dusapin had the ending of Bach's last work in mind? Could these be variations on Bach's ending in some way? Although maybe that's a bit far fetched...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> But I thought flamencosketches came before me...? Is he not involved in picking quartets for the group anymore?


He picked twice in the first "round" because there was one week where we didn't have any other nominators.


----------



## adriesba

Finally got some time to give the Dusapin quartet a listen.

Wasn't sure if I'd like it at first, but I was pleasantly surprised. It had a very unique atmosphere at times and could even sound exotic. I didn't really hear a theme and variations, but I wasn't necessarily trying to pick it out. Hopefully there will be an opportunity for me to listen to it again tomorrow. Very interesting!


----------



## Malx

I have listened three times to the Dusapin - twice without due attention, but it helps get it into whats left of my brain, and once with more concentration.
I didn't read the booklet that Mandryka kindly posted mainly because I don't really like to know what I'm listening for, I prefer to listen 'blind' if you catch my drift.
Anyway - the piece is very interesting, but I struggle to hear a 'theme' as such and variations as I would normally imagine them. I think that the links may be in the sound types used rather than in a scheme as such. The middle variations worked better for me but I might have enjoyed it more if I had approached listening to it as a collection of short movements rather than searching for variations.
Thats probably more down to a deficiency it my ability to hear a structure in modern music. I have added the quartet to my favourites in Qobuz so I will return to it at sometime.


----------



## annaw

Malx said:


> I have listened three times to the Dusapin - twice without due attention, but it helps get it into whats left of my brain, and once with more concentration.
> *I didn't read the booklet that Mandryka kindly posted mainly because I don't really like to know what I'm listening for, I prefer to listen 'blind' if you catch my drift.*
> Anyway - the piece is very interesting, but I struggle to hear a 'theme' as such and variations as I would normally imagine them. I think that the links may be in the sound types used rather than in a scheme as such. The middle variations worked better for me but I might have enjoyed it more if I had approached listening to it as a collection of short movements rather than searching for variations.
> Thats probably more down to a deficiency it my ability to hear a structure in modern music. I have added the quartet to my favourites in Qobuz so I will return to it at sometime.


Just to give you a taste of what you are missing out on :lol::

"Micro-tonality immediately imposes itself as it is with Dusapin: neither temperaments equal to variable scales, nor natural intonation or transposition of acoustic models, but visceral expression listening to 'bare life' (to evoke Agamben), outside of prefabricated grids."

And this very long sentence: "The anacruses and other little notes belonging to the same in-calculated time, reappear here and there amongst rhythmic iterations that are their obverse and which sometimes panic like broken-down machines or, a contrario, amongst very high tenuti, smooth as ice, and amidst a panoply of further sound possibilities, ranging from sinuous melodic inflections to silences of a few seconds, by way of salvoes of pizzicati creating the effect of a giant mandolin, for example."


----------



## adriesba

annaw said:


> Just to give you a taste of what you are missing out on :lol::
> 
> "Micro-tonality immediately imposes itself as it is with Dusapin: neither temperaments equal to variable scales, nor natural intonation or transposition of acoustic models, but visceral expression listening to 'bare life' (to evoke Agamben), outside of prefabricated grids."
> 
> And this very long sentence: "The anacruses and other little notes belonging to the same in-calculated time, reappear here and there amongst rhythmic iterations that are their obverse and which sometimes panic like broken-down machines or, a contrario, amongst very high tenuti, smooth as ice, and amidst a panoply of further sound possibilities, ranging from sinuous melodic inflections to silences of a few seconds, by way of salvoes of pizzicati creating the effect of a giant mandolin, for example."


Oh my goodness! Someone actually wrote that? I'll pass. :lol:


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## Knorf

I quite liked the Dusapin. The listener should think of it more as a set of transformations of a sound object: one which ventures pretty far afield in multiple sonic directions compared to a classical theme and variations. The original gesture/idea becomes gradually unrecognizable. What makes or breaks variation form, in my opinion, is the accumulation and release of tension, whether linear, in waves, or in a series of greater and lesser peaks. I found the piece successful in holding my interest in this regard, although the transformation process struck me as fairly linear, because so many of the sounds and gestures are very striking. I can see myself returning to listen to this; I'm quite sure there's much that I missed and it easily engaged my interest to wonder about that.


----------



## Mandryka

It's a shame we can't see the score, the booklet suggests this anacrusis is clearly marked. Obviously a set of variations do not have to be based on a melody in the theme, there's a very canonical precedent for that. That being said, it was a gorgeous cello melody in the theme or the first variation which first caught my imagination in this quartet.

I wonder why it's called open time. Musical time is clearly a big area for composers but I've not come across the idea of open time before.



annaw said:


> Just to give you a taste of what you are missing out on :lol::
> 
> "The anacruses and other little notes . . . which sometimes panic like broken-down machines or, a contrario, amongst very high tenuti, smooth as ice, and amidst a panoply of further sound possibilities, ranging from sinuous melodic inflections to silences of a few seconds, by way of salvoes of pizzicati creating the effect of a giant mandolin, for example."


This seems to me rather well put.


----------



## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> I quite liked the Dusapin. The listener should think of it more as a set of transformations of a sound object: one which ventures pretty far afield in multiple sonic directions compared to a classical theme and variations. The original gesture/idea becomes gradually unrecognizable. What makes or breaks variation form, in my opinion, is the accumulation and release of tension, whether linear, in waves, or in a series of greater and lesser peaks. I found the piece successful in holding my interest in this regard, although the transformation process struck me as fairly linear, because so many of the sounds and gestures are very striking. I can see myself returning to listen to this; I'm quite sure there's much that I missed and it easily engaged my interest to wonder about that.


Can you think of any other recent big sets of variations? I mean written this century.

I'd be interested to hear what you make of Dusapin's string trio.


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## Knorf

Variation form really does seem to have fallen out of fashion, except by very conservative composers like Lowell Liebermann (who is very good, just _really_ conservative.)

But then, Variations for Orchestra by Elliott Carter remains one of my pieces of his! Not at all recent, though.

In terms of recent big sets of variations, you've got me a bit stumped. How recent?I think there are or might be plenty of examples that are variation form in all but name. I'll have to think about it.


----------



## annaw

Knorf said:


> I quite liked the Dusapin. The listener should think of it more as a set of transformations of a sound object: one which ventures pretty far afield in multiple sonic directions compared to a classical theme and variations. The original gesture/idea becomes gradually unrecognizable. What makes or breaks variation form, in my opinion, is the accumulation and release of tension, whether linear, in waves, or in a series of greater and lesser peaks. I found the piece successful in holding my interest in this regard, although the transformation process struck me as fairly linear, because so many of the sounds and gestures are very striking. I can see myself returning to listen to this; I'm quite sure there's much that I missed and it easily engaged my interest to wonder about that.


Thanks for this insightful overview. I think I might have to listen to it again while keeping in mind what you wrote. I feel I slowly start understanding what works as the main "theme".


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## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> Variation form really does seem to have fallen out of fashion, except by very conservative composers like Lowell Liebermann (who is very good, just _really_ conservative.)
> 
> But then, Variations for Orchestra by Elliott Carter remains one of my pieces of his! Not at all recent, though.
> 
> In terms of recent big sets of variations, you've got me a bit stumped. How recent?I think there are or might be plenty of examples that are variation form in all but name. I'll have to think about it.


Yes I can think of ones from the 70s and 80s -- I've been listening to Ralph Shapey's Fromm Variations for example. But not much after that, over the past 30 years.


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## Mandryka

annaw said:


> Thanks for this insightful overview. I think I might have to listen to it again while keeping in mind what you wrote. I feel I slowly start understanding what works as the main "theme".


Is so interesting the way different people listen. I wasn't at all bothered about identifying a theme, I just lay back and enjoyed the music, and I found it stood up to repeated listening. And people accuse me of being over intellectual!


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## annaw

Mandryka said:


> Is so interesting the way different people listen. I wasn't at all bothered about identifying a theme, I just lay back and enjoyed the music, and I found it stood up to repeated listening. And people accuse me of being over intellectual!


Heh, heh, indeed! I can sometimes be a bit of an analysing addict. With pieces like the Dusapin, the underlying musical ideas can remain somewhat abstract to me because of my limited knowledge of music theory but it's great to have significantly more knowledgeable people here. I wasn't initially that disturbed by the lack of main theme but rather the lack of something that would unify the work. I assumed (and I think rightly so) that there has to be something that connects the variations but I wasn't able to identify what this mysterious "theme" is. Now I have a bit better idea of what it could be thanks to this discussion .


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## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> Variation form really does seem to have fallen out of fashion, except by very conservative composers like Lowell Liebermann (who is very good, just _really_ conservative.)
> 
> But then, Variations for Orchestra by Elliott Carter remains one of my pieces of his! Not at all recent, though.
> 
> In terms of recent big sets of variations, you've got me a bit stumped. How recent?I think there are or might be plenty of examples that are variation form in all but name. I'll have to think about it.


Some recent variations, here






And here









And here









https://www.subrosa.net/en/catalogu...-variations-studies-and-incidental-music.html

And in Veräderungen here


----------



## Josquin13

My choice for the coming week is the Latvian composer Peteris Vasks' String Quartet No. 4 in five movements. Born in 1946, Vasks is now 74 years old. His 4th String Quartet was composed in 1999, & was written for the Kronos Quartet, who gave the work its premiere recording in 2003. Vasks has composed 5 string quartets to date.

I see this quartet as a modern masterpiece. There are five movements: Elegy, Toccata 1, Chorale, Toccata 2, and Meditation.

Here are the recordings that are available to listen to on You Tube, and they're all excellent, in my view:

1. Navaara String Quartet, live at Lincoln Center, February 7, 2019:





2. Prezioso String Quartet: 




https://www.amazon.com/Prezioso-Str...string+quartets&qid=1598745127&s=music&sr=1-4

3. Kronos Quartet, the premiere recording:

Elegy: 



Toccata 1: 



Chorale: 



Toccata 2: 



Meditation: 




4. Spikeru Quartet: 




5. Borusan Quartet: 



https://www.amazon.com/Company-Work...+quartets&qid=1598745127&s=music&sr=1-2-fkmr0

In Vasks' own words, drawn from the liner notes to the Kronos Quartet's recording:

"When I think about contemporary life, it's impossible not to realize that we are balanced on the edge of time's end. It's frighteningly close. But is there any point to composing a piece that only mirrors our being one step away from extinction? To my mind, every honest composer searches for a way out of his time's crises. Towards affirmation, towards faith. He shows how humanity can overcome this passion for self-annihilation that flares up in a column of black smoke from time to time. And if I can find this way out, a reason for hope, the outline of a perspective, then I offer it as my model."

Here too is an AllMusic review by Blair Sanderson:

"Peteris Vasks has contemplated the passing of the twentieth century -- its violence and tragedy balanced against its more benign aspects -- and made his String Quartet No. 4 a spiritual summary of the times. Yet the work's success can be judged without relying too much on the composer's subjective program. As pure music, the quartet is effective and striking in its contrasts. The Elegy, a pensive and austere opening, bears a strong resemblance to John Tavener's Last Sleep of the Virgin, especially in its chains of trills and subdued ambience. Toccata I is an aggressive blast of sharp chords and insistent staccato notes that struggle to break free of restraints. The changing textures and rising chromatic modulations of the Chorale make it the most fascinating movement since there are no overt clues to its ultimate resolution. Toccata II resumes the acid harmonies and fierce rhythms of the second movement, but the most interesting device is a sweeping group glissando in the penultimate measures, a startling gesture that is nonetheless perfect in its placement. The closing Meditation returns to the first movement's dark mood, but continues its reverie in a more openly lyrical manner. The sympathetic performance by Kronos is a significant factor in this recording's coherence and appeal."

Finally, here a brief review by Jens F. Laurson of the recording by the Spikeru Quartet on the Wergo label: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jensla...g-peteris-vasks-string-quartets/#21bbf53d18aa

Arvo Pärt and Dmitri Shostakovich have also been suggested as influences on Vasks in this quartet.

For those that wish to explore Vasks' other four quartets, the Spikeru String Quartet has recorded all five quartets for the Wergo label: 




https://www.amazon.com/Spikeru-Stri...string+quartets&qid=1598745127&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016Z8K9C...string+quartets&qid=1598745127&s=music&sr=1-3

There's also an excellent disc of String Quartets 1-3 by the Navaara Quartet on Challenge Classics: 



, and a recording that I've not heard by the Riga String Quartet of Quartets nos. 2 & 3: 



.

If you wish to explore other works by Vasks, I'd recommend his Violin Concerto, "Tala gaisma" or "Distant Light" as a good place to start. It has received multiple recordings, from violinists Gidon Kremer, Alina Pogostkina, Katarina Andreasson, Renaud Capuçon, Sebastian Bohren, John Storgårds, Hugo Ticciati, etc.:

--Kremer:








--Andreasson: https://www.amazon.com/Violin-Conce...asson+vasks+bis&qid=1598746618&s=music&sr=1-1
--Pogostkina: 



--Capuçon: 



--Storgårds: 



--Ticciati: 



--Bohren: 




I hope people enjoy getting to know Vasks' 4th String Quartet this week, if they don't already know it, or revisiting it, whichever the case may be. If anyone listens to all of the above recordings, I'll be interested to know which was your favorite, or favorites...


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## Merl

^ phew, Jos didn't choose my next pick. Haha. Seriously I don't know this quartet at all so another new one for me. Looking forward to digging in.


----------



## HenryPenfold

It's frustrating. My joint favourite genres are string quartets and orchestral. I have, for quite some time, enjoyed the stqts of Vanks and Dusapin. But every time I see this thread, my listening preference is elsewhere! I'm completely out of synch with this thread! 

I wonder if my listening whim, and this thread, will ever be serendipitously resolved.


----------



## adriesba

HenryPenfold said:


> It's frustrating. My joint favourite genres are string quartets and orchestral. I have, for quite some time, enjoyed the stqts of Vanks and Dusapin. But every time I see this thread, my listening preference is elsewhere! I'm completely out of synch with this thread!
> 
> I wonder if my listening whim, and this thread, will ever be serendipitously resolved.


I can relate. Musical whims can be frustrating! Recently, when I have a moment to spare, I'm not in the mood for music, but when I'm in the middle of something else, I'll be in the right mood. This has been happening to me more than usual lately.


----------



## flamencosketches

@Henry, yes, I'm afraid my listening habits have been totally out of sync as well; in other words, I'm not really listening to string quartets anymore, definitely not like I used to where I'd listen to about 5 of them a day.  Still, though I would like to try and participate in this thread at least a little bit more than I've been. I'll try and hear the Dusapin once today and then see if I can't track down a recording of the Vasks. Worst case scenario I'll listen on Youtube or something, but I can't stand the ads I have to sit through there.


----------



## sbmonty

Thanks Josquin. Unfamiliar with this composer, but that's part of the reason I'm here. Listening now.

Just finished. What a terrific work. The last movement was ethereal. I really enjoyed this quartet.


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## Enthusiast

I don't know his quartets so it will be interesting to hear one. There are a couple of works by Vasks that I quite like but many that I don't. I associate him with Arvo Pärt but Vasks does not seem so religious.


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## annaw

Great choice, Josquin! I just listened to Spīķeru String Quartet's recording (a Latvian quartet) which has a great sound. I wholeheartedly agree with sbmonty - this work is terrific! It goes through many different stages while retaining its pristine and atmospheric quality. The lyrical passages are beautifully alternated with the more aggressive ones and this contrasting makes it memorable and gives the work structural logic and comprehensibility. Maybe it's because of the last movement (Meditation) that the work itself strikes me fresh and serene, rather than agitated or harsh. 

I find the potential influence of Pärt and Shostakovich, which Josquin pointed out, very interesting and justified. These two very different compositional languages seem to be mixed together in this quartet. I think there is a quite striking resemblance between the slower movements of Vasks' SQ and Pärt's minimalism.

Anyway, a very nice work and I'm excited to discover it further!


----------



## Simplicissimus

Finally finishing up my Dusapin experience. I had problems dealing with YouTube advertisements between each of the parts; it interfered with my ability to appreciate the variations and with my enjoyment overall, but I still really like this composition. Every one of the variations was interesting and aesthetically pleasing. I plan to go back to this work on CD at some point. I feel like there’s a lot of musical craftsmanship and goodness to be experienced, and for me it’s very easy to listen to as contemporary SQs go.

With the Vasks, I’m again faced with YouTube as it’s not available on my streaming service, plus I’ve had to cut down my listening time these past couple of weeks because of going back to work full time. I’ll see how it goes.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Re: YouTube ad interruptions, this free service is a miracle.


----------



## Merl

annaw said:


> Great choice, Josquin! I just listened to Spīķeru String Quartet's recording (a Latvian quartet) which has a great sound. I wholeheartedly agree with sbmonty - this work is terrific! It goes through many different stages while retaining its pristine and atmospheric quality. The lyrical passages are beautifully alternated with the more aggressive ones and this contrasting makes it memorable and gives the work structural logic and comprehensibility. Maybe it's because of the last movement (Meditation) that the work itself strikes me fresh and serene, rather than agitated or harsh.
> 
> I find the potential influence of Pärt and Shostakovich, which Josquin pointed out, very interesting and justified. These two very different compositional languages seem to be mixed together in this quartet. I think there is a quite striking resemblance between the slower movements of Vasks' SQ and Pärt's minimalism.
> 
> Anyway, a very nice work and I'm excited to discover it further!


Like Annaw, I've just listened to the Spikeru performance and found it really engaging. What an excellent SQ the Vask 4 is! I agree with others that I hear a lot of Arvo Part (whose instrumental music I love) in there and it occupies a similar sound world but it's more complex than that. I'm looking forward to sampling the different recordings of this work over the coming week. Thanks Jos.


----------



## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Re: YouTube ad interruptions, this free service is a miracle.


Hmm, I have had this widget installed on my browser for years, but it doesn't seem to work on Youtube. I wonder why...


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## BlackAdderLXX

Nice pick. I just heard Vasks for the first time this week and bought a couple of recordings because they were really good. I'm looking forward to listening to this.


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## Malx

annaw said:


> Just to give you a taste of what you are missing out on :lol::
> 
> "Micro-tonality immediately imposes itself as it is with Dusapin: neither temperaments equal to variable scales, nor natural intonation or transposition of acoustic models, but visceral expression listening to 'bare life' (to evoke Agamben), outside of prefabricated grids."
> 
> And this very long sentence: "The anacruses and other little notes belonging to the same in-calculated time, reappear here and there amongst rhythmic iterations that are their obverse and which sometimes panic like broken-down machines or, a contrario, amongst very high tenuti, smooth as ice, and amidst a panoply of further sound possibilities, ranging from sinuous melodic inflections to silences of a few seconds, by way of salvoes of pizzicati creating the effect of a giant mandolin, for example."


Thank you for that post which has just made me feel that my choice not to read it before listening is vindicated.


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## Enthusiast

^ I am 100% the same, Malx. I want to hear the music and know how I feel about it before I want to read about it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Just finished the Kronos and am now listening to the Spukeru. I really enjoy this quartet. My first exposure to Vasks was last week after seeing Distant Light show up a couple of times in the current listening thread and seeing it on offer at Presto. I gave it a try and found it's mixture of ambient textures and longing melodies to be very engaging. This SQ also leaves me with that impression. 

Another first impression: just when the meandering nature of the first movement gets to a point where there it feels like it needs to move on, the tocatta kicks in with a welcome break. The one thing about Vasks that I'm noticing is that sometimes his ambient texture movements can feel (to me) like they overstay their welcome. I noticed it on his Quartet for piano and strings recorded by Hannu Lintu. I'm not saying that's the case here in SQ 4, but I'm finding Vasks can be a little long winded in his slow, textural movements. He does a good job of mitigating it here in the his work, but the last movement IMO flirts with the line.


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## Enthusiast

The Vasks seems a pleasant enough piece. I will try to listen to it again but so far I am just thinking that it is the type of music that at its best can be haunting but I'm not sure this piece quite makes the grade to haunt! Perhaps it does but so far I am hearing music that is a little too ambient for me. Let's see.


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## Josquin13

For those worried or hesitant about the commercial interruptions on You Tube, I've noticed that if you listen to the picture link I provided on the previous page (80) to the Navaara Quartet's live Lincoln Center performance, it doesn't get interrupted by commercials, but is continuous for all five movements. I've now listened to the performance twice and neither time was it interrupted. So, it appears that Google's commercials can't reach or enter onto the Talk Classical website. Which is good to know (at least, if you don't have Adblock..) In other words, you have to listen to the quartet on You Tube in order to be bombarded by all their relentless commercials. (The Navaara Quartet performance is also very fine & worthwhile.) Of course, the video link also has to be continuous and not broken up into different links per each movement, or you'll then be forced to listen to the whole performance on You Tube (unless a video link is provided here for each movement).

That is something to remember for future reference. For instance, if a video link to the Dusapin quartet had been provided, I would have found it a lot easier and certainly more inviting to listen to the whole quartet without all of Google's obnoxious interruptions per each and every variation. (Although a video link to each of Dusapin's movements would have needed to be posted on our thread, since each variation was broken up on You Tube.)

As for the Vasks' final "Meditation" movement, I think it's great, and see it as the heart of the quartet. For me, it doesn't outstay its welcome. It is after all intended to be 'meditative'--so it can't be a short movement. It's supposed to have a trance-like effect on the listener. And, as others have pointed out, there's enough variety within Vasks' other movements that no single movement here becomes too long winded--at least, not in my view. Besides, it's only about 11 minutes, so it's hardly a massive movement, time-wise. Hence, I don't have a problem with it. I actually like how the 5 different movements are proportioned out.

I also like the inventiveness of the unusual string sounds (especially all the swooping slides) that Vasks' conjures up within this quartet. He certainly adds to my vocabulary of sound, which is one of the major contributions of modern & contemporary music, as I see it. Indeed there are subtle string sounds and juxtapositions in this quartet that Mozart and Beethoven didn't imagine were possible. Which is a clear sign that music is evolving...

Here's another link to the commercial free performance by the Navaara Quartet:


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## Knorf

Thanks for the tip!


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## Simplicissimus

Vasks SQ 4: I listened to the Navarras on YouTube and then actually did find the Spīkerus on Amazon HD. Wow! I see why Josquin13 calls this SQ a modern masterpiece! Love it.

It's quite conservative compared to a lot of the contemporary SQs we've been enjoying. I do perceive some Pärt, but not Shostakovich so much (as these two composers have been mentioned as influences). Melodically, I hear a sensibility akin to Sibelius, while in terms of chords and chord progressions I hear a lot of Barber. But Vasks has his own characteristics, which come across strongly to me. I track emotions and moods in this music, but more than that I experience something like colors, which reminds me of Bliss's _Color Symphony_ (evocatively, not musically). I'm looking forward to some more listening through the week, which I expect will give me a better sense of the whole. Right now, I am apprehending the work only on the level of the individual movements.


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## Mandryka

Interesting last movement in the Vasks.

(forget the above - I listened to to the 3rd quartet by mistake!)


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## Enthusiast

I replayed the Dusapin yesterday - for pleasure rather than "duty" to this thread - and feel it will be a work I continue to revisit. Perhaps thanks to this thread it is now in my "listener's repertoire". And I gave the Vasks some focused attention today via the Kronos Quartet recording. I like the outer movements but find the two toccatas to be rather uninteresting (they sound like second rate middle period Shostakovich to me) and the short chorale that they sandwich also seemed a little dull to me. Structurally, those three middle movements play an important role but I wish Vasks had managed something a bit more interesting for them. So, ultimately a bit disappointing for me and not a work that will join the few other Vasks pieces that I really like.


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## Merl

Listening to the Kronos and Spikeru performances back to back its difficult for me to express a preference up to now. In slower, more tender and soulful moments the Spikeru play beautifully and with wonderful dynamics and a gorgeous tone. In these moments the Spikerus sound fuller yet in the 2nd movement the Kronos quartet have a slightly more aggressive tone and depth of attack that I find just as endearing. I need to listen to these performances a few more times to see which one I prefer but at the moment there's a hair-width between both of these terrific performances. I'm looking forward to trying a few more recordings out.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Listening to the Kronos and Spikeru performances back to back its difficult for me to express a preference up to now. In slower, more tender and soulful moments the Spikeru play beautifully and with wonderful dynamics and a gorgeous tone. In these moments the Spikerus sound fuller yet in the 2nd movement the Kronos quartet have a slightly more aggressive tone and depth of attack that I find just as endearing. I need to listen to these performances a few more times to see which one I prefer but at the moment there's a hair-width between both of these terrific performances. I'm looking forward to trying a few more recordings out.


Same "problem" here. I have listened to both but haven't got a preference yet - both were stunning in my opinion. Should relisten them to get a better idea of the performances but also the quartet itself.


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## Iota

I listened to both the Spikeru and Kronos performances of the Vasks, marginally preferring the former. 

Personally I found most to enjoy in the first and last movements. More than once in these slower reflective movements I felt echoes of Barber's Adagio both in style, and in the sense of seeking consolation through sorrow. 
The only other work I know by Vasks is the viola concerto, which also has undeniably beautiful moments. I haven't yet found myself fully involved with his music, but this is on very limited acquaintance and I will keep an open mind/ear to it.  

I may try the quartet Mandryka listened to by mistake next, who knows where chance may lead ..


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## Allegro Con Brio

Vasks is a composer I am decently familiar with - I love his astonishingly beautiful choral piece _Pater Noster_, and I have heard his Cor Anglais Concerto and violin concerto "Distant Light." He does have a unique voice that I often enjoy, but I'm not as big on him when he starts to sound like the "holy minimalists," which is a style that, for the most part, I don't connect with. Case in point, I find my attention wavering on the outer movements of this quartet and their static, meditative qualities. That said the music has an intense, radiant focus to it that is undeniably impressive; and Vasks's structuring of the work is wonderful. The three middle movements are all superb and overall I would rate the work quite highly. I think it's safe to say that it's certainly a standout of the quartet repertoire from recent decades.

Next week's choice will go to *Bwv 1050*.

*Realdealblues* and *HenryPenfold*, you have both made contributions to the thread in recent weeks. Would you like to be added to the list of nominators?

Also, as long as I'm here, I figured I might as well tell you all that life will start to become a _lot_ busier for me in the upcoming weeks, which means that I will not have nearly enough time to devote to the forum as I have to this point. Don't worry, I'll still be here plenty enough but my posting will probably be less frequent and though I'll try to write something weekly on the listening groups (this one plus the Early Music and 1980-2000) I can't commit to doing so with regularity. Rest assured that I still be listening to all the selections, but I think I'm going to have to reliquish the duty of "running" this thread to someone else. Would someone be willing to maintain the master list of quartets and scheduled nominators as well as provide weekly reminders of who's up next? This is such a fulfilling and rewarding thread and so much more potential can be eked out of it! Hopefully someone will step up - the duties really aren't hard at all, but since I have so many things going on in "real life" I'd prefer to get rid of all obligatory "online" duties if I can

Master list:

*First Round*

02/23-03/01: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01-03/08: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08-03/15: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15-03/22: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22-03/29: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29-04/05: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05-04/12: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12-04/19: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19-04/26: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26-05/03: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03-05/10: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10-05/17: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

05/17-05/24: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24-05/31: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31-06/07: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07-06/14: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
06/14-06/21: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
06/21-06/28: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
06/28-07/05: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
07/05-07/12: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
07/12-07/19: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
07/19-07/26: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
07/26-08/02: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
08/02-08/09: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

*Second Round*

08/09-08/16: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
08/16-08/23: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast)
08/23-08/30: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
08/30-09/06: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)


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## Bwv 1080

Opportune, as I am trying to catch up with the Vasks and Dusapin.


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## Bwv 1080

Other than a few of the piano etudes, am not that familiar with Dusapin. This was a cool piece

Found the Vasks less interesting, but nice to listen to


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## Bwv 1080

OK, seems to be slow, so here is this weeks quartet:

*Max Reger, SQ#4 op 109 in Eb*

Had a good representation of modern along with 19th century works, thought this would be a good addition - dont think we have done a quartet from the first decade of the 20th century. Its a brilliant combination of chromatic harmony and counterpoint, ending with a massive fugue. The recording I know and like best is the Vogler Quartet's, which pairs the work with his great Clarinet Quintet. The piece dates from 1909 and is dedicated to Professor Adolf Wach, the husband of Mendelssohn's youngest daughter Lili. Listening to this one can understand the motivation for Shoenberg and others to move past common practice tonality - hard to imagine more chromatic tonal harmony than this. For example. the opening bar outlines an Eb triad, but surprisingly ends with A half diminished before the phrase ends on a dim 7 chord

https://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No.4,_Op.109_(Reger,_Max)


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## Knorf

I gave the Pēteris Vasks a go. It's much too derivative and therefore boring for my tastes. Shostakovich did the same thing a lot better. (Apologies, Josquin13.)

I'm much more hopeful about the Reger, which is also new to me!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Great choice! As a matter of fact I’ve just started getting into Reger after a long stretch of unfairly neglecting his music. I’ve listened to Psalm 100, the clarinet quintet, and some of the organ works throughout the last couple of weeks and loved them all. Looking forward to this one.


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## Merl

Here's the recordings of the Reger I could find that are on Spotify or have been released.

Drolc
Berner
Reger Quartet
Mannheimer
Joachim
Berlin Philharmonia Quartet
Busch
Vogler
Melos 
Keller 
Austrian SQ

I 'discovered' this SQ a few years back and have enjoyed it ever since. Looking forward to trying the different recordings on offer.


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## Merl

Sorry for the double post but to round off my listening of the Vasks 4th Quartet I listened to two further recordings. The *Borussan Quartet *on their enjoyable disc 'Company' offered a very good account of the quartet, excellently recorded but although their account was beautiful in slower moments I felt they were a bit laboured at times. Very good but not of the quality of the Spikeru or Kronos recordings. The 2nd recording was by the *Prezioso* quartet. Lots of attack on that one and it could have been a contender but for one of the most reverberant recordings I've ever heard which I found very off-putting and totally ruined my enjoyment. What a shame.

So to round up my pick (narrowly) for the Vasks 4th was the excellent *Spikeru *cycle (which I now have). Superb playing and great sound quality and it marginally edged the Kronos for me.


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## Simplicissimus

Merl said:


> Here's the recordings of the Reger I could find that are on Spotify or have been released.
> 
> Drolc
> Berner
> Reger Quartet
> Mannheimer
> Joachim
> Berlin Philharmonia Quartet
> Busch
> Vogler
> Melos
> Keller
> Austrian SQ
> 
> I 'discovered' this SQ a few years back and have enjoyed it ever since. Looking forward to trying the different recordings on offer.


I have two on my streaming service: the Drolc and the Austrian. Liking it so far. The first decade of the 20th Century is right in my musical sweet spot.


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## Malx

I have finally had the opportunity to listen to the Vasks Quartet a couple of times.
For me this piece is a combination of very interesting parts that don't quite gel together - the quiter, contemplative outer movements are fine although perhaps slightly overlong, the three shorter central movements particularly the toccatas don't seem to sit happily with the two movements that bookend the piece.
Might it have worked with the two toccatas removed and two slower outer movements shortened either side of the central movement - possibly.
Its not a bad piece but it is not grabbing my attention and keeping my concentration - maybe with more plays who knows.


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## Merl

I started listening to the Reger E-flat op109 SQ today. As I said, I got to know this piece a few years back and I have the *Drolc* set so I started listening there. Although the Drolc recording is well-played and the performances measured and sensible I've always thought the recording is as dry as old boots. There's very little space around the instruments and it leads to a rather claustrophobic experience when listening at high volumes, in particular, but you can't fault the excellent playing. With that in mind I tried the *Berne* Quartet's recording courtesy of Spotify. I've been curious about this set for a while. This time the performances are slower and more rigid. Whilst the Drolc quartet play with greater dynamic range the Berne Quartet seem to offer less contrast and they're not helped by a recording that makes the quartet sound like theyre playing in the Blue John Mines. There's nothing bad but I was a little disappointed with this recording and similar problems affect the rest of the set (I had a quick preview of the other performances). Decent enough but it didn't blow me away. Finally, I listened to the *Berlin Philharmonic Quartet on *Naxos. Again, this was another decent performance and I much preferred this idiomatic and lively performance in excellent sound. They might not always be as sharp and incisive as the Drolcs but it's a recording that is very enjoyable and easy on the ear. I've got a few more recordings to listen to tomorrow. Thankfully there's not too many recordings of this SQ so it shouldn't take me long to get thru this lot.


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## Merl

Apologies again for double-posting (they were a day apart). I listened to two recordings today. The first was the *Melos *Quartet. Again it was an enjoyable performance, however the slightly distant violin sound was a bit odd even though the account was very good. The 2nd recording from the *Mannheimer* quartet was even better. This time there was none of the dryness of the Drolcs or limited dynamics of the Berne quartet. This one, for me, is a very strong reading. The soundscape is excellent and the playing flows effortlessly and sounds completely natural. Yep. I really like it. The final movement is particularly engaging. More to try tomorrow.

Edit: I squeezed one more recording in just now and I'm so glad I did. The *Vogler* Quartet disc is a treasure! The scurrying strings and tonal beauty of this one really pulled me in. Beautifully recorded, it edged the Mannheimer in most departments (although the Mannheim is very impressive). A superb recording and the one to beat up to now. Gorgeous.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I very much like Reger's lush harmonic language and I especially like the fugal finale of this quartet, but I just can't escape the feeling that it's just too long and repetitive. I feel like he doesn't do very much with his ideas. I much prefer the economical length of the Szymanowski quartet we listened to about a month ago. It had the same luxurious harmonies and deep pathos, but felt like just the right size.

Next week's is *adriesba*'s turn to choose. Our current schedule of nominators includes some who have not shown up here in a long time:

adriesba
Portamento
Shosty
sbmonty
Merl
Eramire156
Knorf
Simplicissimus
TurnaboutVox
calvinpv
20centrfuge
Iota
DTut
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Also, as long as I'm here, I figured I might as well tell you all that life will start to become a lot busier for me in the upcoming weeks, which means that I will not have nearly enough time to devote to the forum as I have to this point. Don't worry, I'll still be here plenty enough but my posting will probably be less frequent and though I'll try to write something weekly on the listening groups (this one plus the Early Music and 1980-2000) I can't commit to doing so with regularity. Rest assured that I still be listening to all the selections, but I think I'm going to have to reliquish the duty of "running" this thread to someone else. Would someone be willing to maintain the master list of quartets and scheduled nominators as well as provide weekly reminders of who's up next? This is such a fulfilling and rewarding thread and so much more potential can be eked out of it! Hopefully someone will step up - the duties really aren't hard at all, but since I have so many things going on in "real life" I'd prefer to get rid of all obligatory "online" duties if I can


I posted this a week ago. Any biters?


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## sbmonty

I've listened to the Berne, Melos and Vogler. Have to agree with Merl. The Vogler is a beautiful sounding recording. Very enjoyable.


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## Merl

Unfortunately I haven't been able to listen to the OOP recordings by the Keller and Joachim Quartets. However, I have been able to listen to the last two on my list, by the legendary Busch quartet and the unheard of Austrian quartet
The *Busch Quartet* recording was done on the fly in 1951, whilst the Busch quartet were on tour, and for its age the mono recording is perfectly acceptable. The account is definitely idiomatic and I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is some quite glaring intonation issues and sloppy ensemble playing in places. Whilst the whole performance is fairly enjoyable (the finale is particularly engaging) the long line of the slow movement doesn't impress me and this could have been much better.
The Reger Quarter's hugely OOP recording on Vox (1973) is of mixed quality with uneven amounts of analogue hiss and some odd dynamics. I did enjoy this reading but the recording makes this uncompetitive.

So there you go. I *have a clear favourite in this quartet and that's the Vogler disc* which I find terrific. Beautiful recording, great ensemble and perfectly judged tempi. I'd place the Mannheim recording in 2nd but the Vogler, on Nimbus, are a class above. Good shout, Jossy!


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## Bwv 1080

You all would have saved time following my advice in the OP for the Vogler disc

Its too bad they have not recorded other Reger SQs


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## Malx

I listened a couple of times to the Vogler recording on Qobuz, my first comment - excellent sound from a source I don't normally associate with top quality sound quality (Nimbus).
The quartet I found very interesting, it seems well put together but the material is stretched a bit thin - I feel a more concise working of the ideas would have made for better result. The second and fourth movements worked best for this listener.
That's the last two quartets presented I have found the length to be a bit of an issue, maybe I have a limit to my concentration which is the problem. I will return to this one again as it is definitely interesting enough to merit further investigation.
Very decent choice.

ETA - Listening again this morning I would suggest my comment about material being stretched really relates to first movement - this quartet is growing on me.


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> You all would have saved time following my advice in the OP for the Vogler disc
> 
> Its too bad they have not recorded other Reger SQs


Oops, sorry, BWV, I credited Jos with mentioning the Vogler but it was you in your original post. Yes I should have listened to you but it's been fun exploring and now for a complete set I've replaced the dry Drolc, that I never play, with the better Mannheim set so the extra listening was worth it. Thanks again.


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## Josquin13

I've listened to the Drolc Quartet recording on You Tube several times now. I find the quartet gets better and more impressive with each subsequent hearing. It's a remarkable work, and brilliantly imaginative. Personally, I felt that the variety of ideas more than justified its length. But then I thought that about the Vasks quartet, too. Thanks for the introduction. (I'll try to hear the Vogler recording now.)

I hear a strong Bach influence at times, and particularly in the final movement, which is very contrapuntal and fugue-like. Is that common in Reger's music?

I also wanted to add one more thought about the Vasks' quartet from last week. Over the course of the week, I listened to all 5 of his quartets (performed by the Spikeru Quartet), and found his latest quartets, nos. 4 & 5 to be his most traditional quartets. Which isn't a criticism. There is more innovation in his first three quartets.

Allegro Con Brio--I'll take over for you, if you'd like, that is, until your schedule permits you to return. I assume that I only need to alert the next person up each week, maybe on Friday, or Saturday? And keep track of the overall order. Since you say that some of the people on the list haven't been active on the thread in a long while, perhaps I should ask the next person up for the following week to be on standby with their pick, just in case there's a no show (or two)? Before you leave, could you post the future line up for me one more time, just to make sure that I have it accurately? Thanks. (EDIT: Actually, there's no need, as I see that you posted the future list in your last post...)


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## annaw

Josquin13 said:


> I've listened to the Drolc Quartet recording on You Tube several times now. I find the quartet gets better and more impressive with each subsequent hearing. It's a remarkable work, and brilliantly imaginative. Personally, I felt that the variety of ideas more than justified its length. But then I thought that about the Vasks quartet, too. Thanks for the introduction.
> 
> *I hear a strong Bach influence at times, and particularly in the final movement, which is very contrapuntal and fugue-like. Is that common in Reger's music?*
> 
> I also wanted to add one more thought about the Vasks' quartet from last week. Over the course of the week, I listened to all 5 of his quartets (performed by the Spikeru Quartet), and found his latest quartets, nos. 4 & 5 to be his most traditional quartets. Which isn't a criticism. There is more innovation in his first three quartets.
> 
> Allegro con brio--I'll take over for you, if you'd like, that is, until your schedule permits you to return. I assume that I only need to alert the next person up each week, maybe on Friday, or Saturday? And keep track of the overall order. Since you say that some of the people on the list haven't been active on the thread in a while, perhaps I should ask the next person up for the following week to be on standby with their pick, just in case there's a no show (or two)? Before you leave, could you post the future line up for me one more time, just to make sure that I have it accurately? Thanks.


Max Reger started off as an enthusiastic Wagnerite ( :devil: ). When he was young, he attended performances of _Parsifal_ and _Die Meistersinger_ at Bayreuth which left him very impressed. Apparently, he recalled later that "When I heard Parsifal for the first time, as a fifteen-year-old, I cried for two weeks, and then I became a musician." However, his teachers managed to convince him to change his mind and Reger's major influences ended up being Brahms and, indeed, Bach. He acknowledged that Bach is, and should be, the influence of his music. He was also a prominent organ composer of 20th century which probably enhanced this association. The contrapuntal nature of many of his works and Bach's very clear influences has been noted in connection with particularly his organ works.

From his Wikipedia article:

_A similarly firm supporter of absolute music, he saw himself as being part of the tradition of Beethoven and Brahms. His work often combined the classical structures of these composers with the extended harmonies of Liszt and Wagner, to which he added the complex counterpoint of Bach. Reger's organ music, though also influenced by Liszt, was provoked by that tradition._ ... _He pursued intensively Brahms's continuous development and free modulation, whilst being rooted in Bach-influenced polyphony._

I sampled some of his solo piano and organ works and I would say you can find quite many fugues and contrpuntal writing in them. Some nice counterpoint in this work for example:


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## Josquin13

So, adriesba is up for next week, and if adriesba doesn't show up with a pick by tomorrow evening, Portamento, and then Shosty are on back up, and will hopefully be ready with a choice. If they don't show up, then Sbmonty would be next. If no one is ready to pick one, then I'll open the forum up to suggestions, so that a quartet can get chosen for the coming week. (Or perhaps Merl can take his turn, since I know that he has already chosen his quartet.) We'll see how this plays out...


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## Josquin13

annaw,

Thanks, that all makes perfect sense. Yes, I think I hear an influence of Brahms' two piano Haydn Variations in Reger's two piano Mozart Variations that you linked to. (I'm listening to it right now.)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Thanks so much, Josquin! If someone doesn’t acknowledge that their turn is up next, I usually shoot them a PM to let them know (sometimes they’re active but just not checking the thread), and if I don’t hear back within the next half-day or so I would go to the next in line. 

Additionally, these members are on “standby” - when they make an appearance in the thread, they can be added to the order:

Euler
Vicente
MissKittysMom


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## Enthusiast

I have listened to the Mannheimer recording three times this week. It is a work I knew slightly ... but I always find Reger difficult and find I absolutely have to be in the mood for him. Most of the time I hear smoke but not fire, fog but not much air, damp but not much actual crystal clear water ... and lots of earth. The Op. 109 quartet is one of his better works, I think, but would say that I only really enjoyed it on one of the three times I played it so I don't think this week has solved my problem with Reger. The time I did enjoy it, it sounded so different! But neither familiarity nor will is helping me to always hear it that way! But I do find that the 3rd movement can quite reliably reach for the stars - there is a bit of intensity and life to it - so that is something.


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## Simplicissimus

Reger SQ in E-flat Major, Op. 109: I ended up finding the Vogler Quartet recording on my service after Merl et al. recommended it. I like it better than the Drolc, the other recording I listened to.

Overall, I find this work worthwhile and rewarding, but I enjoyed the outer movements much more than the inner. The melodic themes are engaging and nicely stated and re-stated, making the piece feel coherent and, to me, not too long or aimless. I find the harmonies in the first movement especially beautiful, and the fourth movement is spiced up by some well-placed pizzicato. The second and third movements seemed halting, choppy, agitated, and off-balance. I didn’t like the mood; I felt like I was in stop-and go traffic, running late for a meeting, with a hangover. That’s totally subjective, of course, not a criticism of the composition. I’m very pleased to know Reger a little better now, and the Vogler Quartet is a nice find, too.


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## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Thanks so much, Josquin! If someone doesn't acknowledge that their turn is up next, I usually shoot them a PM to let them know (sometimes they're active but just not checking the thread), and if I don't hear back within the next half-day or so I would go to the next in line.
> 
> Additionally, these members are on "standby" - when they make an appearance in the thread, they can be added to the order:
> 
> Euler
> Vicente
> MissKittysMom


Allegro,

Okay, got it. Have you already notified adriesba for next week? or should I do so?

I'm not sure I understand, did the three names that you mention--Euler, Vicente, & MissKitty'sMom--previously request to be on the list? and were you waiting to see if they became more active on the thread to add them? and then they went away and haven't returned since? or...?


----------



## Iota

I normally make a point of trying to hear the performance recommended by the OP of that week's quartet, so it's the Vogler Quartet I've listened to, twice now, but sad to say that for whatever reason, I was unable really to connect with it. My experience was similar to Enthusiast's #1246, without though even a positive experience with the third movement.

It's a curious one, because I find he has a very distinct voice, he doesn't sound quite like anybody else, and that kept me interested for a while, but just didn't lead any further. 
One thing I did like very much was the unexpected jolt of the heavy chords about a minute and a half into the first movement, they reappeared again in what I think was the recapitulation, and again in altered form in the coda, but sadly these were the only high points for me.

Finally I'll mention that despite my own distance from it, I felt a strong identity to it, which is a possible future bridge over the moat for me. And I was pleased to have focussed on it, I hardly know Reger's music, and will listen elsewhere and maybe find another way in.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> If someone doesn't acknowledge that their turn is up next, I usually shoot them ..


This seems a bit harsh. 

(apologies ..)


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> Allegro,
> 
> Okay, got it. Have you already notified adriesba for next week? or should I do so?
> 
> I'm not sure I understand, did the three names that you mention--Euler, Vicente, & MissKitty'sMom--previously request to be on the list? and were you waiting to see if they became more active on the thread to add them? and then they went away and haven't returned since? or...?


I will message adriesba. Two of those members had requested to be on the list but disappeared shortly after doing so. The other one, Vicente, is the OP of this thread and if he ever shows up again, he deserves a pick


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## Josquin13

Oh right, I had forgotten that Vicente originated the thread. (I hope that he wasn't a casualty of COVID-19.) So, I'll start next week, assuming that adriesba makes a pick in the next 24 hours. Thanks.


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## Bwv 1080

Yes Reger probably wrote more fugues than any other 19th century composer


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## adriesba

Oh my goodness, where did the time go?! It's been like two weeks since I looked at this thread! Sorry!

If it hasn't been done already, I pick Shostakovich's string quartet #8.


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## Bwv 1080

_Best listened to in a windowless room, better than best in an airless room - correctly speaking, a bunker sealed forever and enwrapped in tree-roots - the Eighth String Quartet of Shostakovich (Opus 110) is the living corpse of music, perfect in its horror. Call it the simultaneous asphyxiation and bleeding of melody. The soul strips itself of life in a dusty room._-William T. Vollmann


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've been hoping for another Shostakovich pick since we did the 4th quartet several months ago. This is definitely his most famous one and because of that I do think it tends to unfairly overshadow the others. But it's still a great piece that I'm looking forward to studying. Here's a fantastic article and website: http://www.quartets.de/compositions/ssq08.html

And here's Trout's list of recommended recordings:

1. Borodin Quartet (1967)
2. Fitzwilliam String Quartet (1977)
3. Borodin Quartet (1990)
4. Emerson String Quartet (1998)
5. Borodin Quartet (1962)
6. Sorrel Quartet (2001)
7. Kronos Quartet (1990)
8. St. Lawrence String Quartet (2006)
9. Pražák Quartet (2010)
10. Hagen Quartet (2005)


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> _Best listened to in a windowless room, better than best in an airless room - correctly speaking, a bunker sealed forever and enwrapped in tree-roots - the Eighth String Quartet of Shostakovich (Opus 110) is the living corpse of music, perfect in its horror. Call it the simultaneous asphyxiation and bleeding of melody. The soul strips itself of life in a dusty room._-William T. Vollmann


Wow, that won't sell it to the uninitiated! Lol. I have a few recordings and I'll have a look through Trout's list for ideas too but don't expect me to agree with him! In all seriousness, my listening time this week will be limited but I'll see if I can at least listen to some of the most recommended recordings. The last time I played this it was either the Emerson or Rubio recordings.

Edit: I've had some time today so I dug out what I have in the CD racks to listen to whilst ironing my work clothes.

Ive always been an admirer of the *Rubio Quartet* Shosty cycle for it's consistency. Its not the greatest set out there but its a highly enjoyable one. However, this is one individual SQ and their 8th, whilst being tight in ensemble, lively and well-recorded, needs a little more bite in the 2nd movement. As part of a set that's fine but I'm looking for the best out there for this particular quartet. 
I also listened to my *Altius Quartet *recording. Why I haven't played this for some time, I don't know. It's an excellent performance (and is joined by equally fine 7th and 9th quartets). The sound is excellent and the Altius quartet play with heart and assurance. It's not as emotionally desolate as some would like in slower moments but personally I think they gauge it just right and don't go overboard on sentimentality. This is a very, very fine recording. Highly recommended.
The *Pavel Haas *recording is one that slightly disappoints me (just slightly though). You can't knock the Pavel Haas' commitment to the cause but something is missing. I don't feel as moved by this one as the Altius recording. True, they attack the 2nd movement with gusto but it doesn't convince me and actually sounds a little scratchy and congested. The playing is stunning at times and the recorded sound is similarly impressive but it's not one I care to return to even if I do enjoy their other performances.
The final recording for now is the *Chilingirian* one. It's another very fine effort and starts particularly well with a thoroughly convincing first 3 movements. There really isn't a bad word to say about this one. A thoroughly engaging performance.
That's it for now but I should be able to get at a few more later however there are a heck of a lot of recordings of this SQ.

*ps. there's at least 50+ recordings of this quartet out there! *


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## Merl

Merl said:


> *ps. there's at least 50+ recordings of this quartet out there! *


Apologies for quoting myself and double-posting but here's the list I put together of recordings of Shosty SQ8. There's probably more but these are some of the most well-known or easier to access online. Ignore my scruffy writing as I was rushing! BTW, the 4 I've starred* are the ones I have listened to up to now. I have a number on the HD to go at before I hit Spotify.


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## annaw

^ There are many recordings indeed - Primephonic shows me 83 recordings. It’s not 100% accurate, but it usually gives a good approximate number. I concur that it’s a bit too many Shosty’s 8ths for one week.

Last time I listened to all his SQs in two days, I was left a bit... traumatised. But I love Shostakovich, so I’m excited to discover the 8th SQ even further.


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## Simplicissimus

Shostakovich String Quartet No. 8 in C Minor, Op. 110: I own one CD recording of this piece, conveniently on the same disc as No. 4. It's the historical June 1962 Mercury Living Presence recording of the Borodin Quartet. I'll start with this recording and then try the Emersons and Fitzwilliams, which I have on my streaming service. Here we have a major work in the SQ repertoire with which I'm already a little familiar, so I'm looking forward to digging deeply into it.


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## Merl

annaw said:


> ^ There are many recordings indeed - Primephonic shows me 83 recordings. It's not 100% accurate, but it usually gives a good approximate number.


The streaming sites often give rather inflated numbers of recordings as it counts different versions of the same piece. For example, on Spotify, I have at least 6 'different' recordings of the first Borodin account but it's all the same one in different guises (same with the Brodskys and the Borodin's later remake).


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## annaw

Merl said:


> The streaming sites often give rather inflated numbers of recordings as it counts different versions of the same piece. For example, on Spotify, I have at least 6 'different' recordings of the first Borodin account but it's all the same one in different guises (same with the Brodskys and the Borodin's later remake).


Yes, that's what I've noticed as well. To some extent the number of OOP recordings or labels which are not available on streaming balance it out but the error margin is still huge: Primephonic and its 8 listed recordings of Debussy's string quartet for example .


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## Merl

Oops, I missed Taneyev from my list! Silly me.


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## flamencosketches

Shostakovich's 8th is the first string quartet I ever saw in live performance, when my orchestra director sophomore year (who was a young, smokin' hot Polish violinist) in high school got together with some of her musician friends to play it for our class. I was blown away. I thought it was the darkest and most dissonant, modernistic piece I had ever heard. Anyway, it's a great piece, dark and brooding, but full of drama and energy.

Starting with this, a recent purchase...:










I don't think I've ever noticed this before, but the first movement calls to mind the first movement of the 11th symphony, calm before the storm kind of thing.

Question for whoever cares to answer this. Shostakovich dedicated this work "to the victims of fascism and the war". Do you hear this as a political piece, or a more personal one? I personally have a hard time determining how the music can relate to fascism in anything other than an extremely superficial way.


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## annaw

^ I personally don’t listen to this particular quartet as a political work, I never have. However, I do see some of Shostakovich’s other works as somewhat political. This was one of the main underlying themes of his works. I think it comes down to how much this political message, or any extra-musical idea of a piece, touches you personally or how relatable it is. I can say that there are some political themes in Shostakovich’s works that I connect with my own country’s situation during the period when Shostakovich was actively composing, and that makes me see some of them from a partly political perspective. 

I don’t believe the work itself is in literal sense meant to convey symbolism of war - just the terror of it.


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## adriesba

I just listened to the Emerson Quartet recording on DG. Wow, this is intense stuff!



annaw said:


> ^ There are many recordings indeed - Primephonic shows me 83 recordings. It's not 100% accurate, but it usually gives a good approximate number. I concur that it's a bit too many Shosty's 8ths for one week.
> 
> Last time I listened to all his SQs in two days, I was left a bit... traumatised. But I love Shostakovich, so I'm excited to discover the 8th SQ even further.


Are his other quartets dark and somber like this one? I don't think I could do more than one a day.


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## Merl

Tonight I've listened to the stunning, brisk and dynamic *Taneyev* recording. What a great performance (if a little dryly recorded) and one of the best up to now, for me. I followed it up with a terrific account from the *Medici* quartet which was probably the finest recording I've heard from them but which was ruined by a rather harsh and uncompromising acoustic (was this recorded in a coal cellar?). What a shame as this is a great performance. The *Eder* quartet on Naxos have a lovely tone and provide a thoroughly musical and satisfying reading but this music either needs more bite or desolation and I hear neither in these precise but safe recordings. The *Jerusalem* quartet sound hurried and breathless in the 2nd and 3rd movements and elsewhere just too in-your-face and close to qualify a 2nd listen. I was genuinely very disappointed with the Jerusalem account after expecting much more from this recording as I did from the *Manhattan* performance which I found mannered, histrionic and often OTT, no matter how technically excellent they are. It never seemed like a genuine cohesive performance. The *Yggdrasil* recording came out of the blue for me as I'd not heard it but by god its a really good one. They seem to capture the deep emotion of this piece so well and kept me enthralled throughout. There's a great sense of line in this performance and BIS gave them excellent sound. This is very impressive. My final one for tonight was the *Brodskys* and their fine reading doesn't disappoint. It's well-conceived, energetic and very nicely played. They're ever so slightly broader than others but they make a good argument for this performance and I found it a very fine one (nice deep, rich sound too).


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> Shostakovich's 8th is the first string quartet I ever saw in live performance, when my orchestra director sophomore year (who was a young, smokin' hot Polish violinist) in high school got together with some of her musician friends to play it for our class. I was blown away. I thought it was the darkest and most dissonant, modernistic piece I had ever heard. Anyway, it's a great piece, dark and brooding, but full of drama and energy.
> 
> Starting with this, a recent purchase...:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I've ever noticed this before, but the first movement calls to mind the first movement of the 11th symphony, calm before the storm kind of thing.
> 
> Question for whoever cares to answer this. Shostakovich dedicated this work "to the victims of fascism and the war". Do you hear this as a political piece, or a more personal one? I personally have a hard time determining how the music can relate to fascism in anything other than an extremely superficial way.


.

What about the NKVD knocks and all the Jewish music?


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## Josquin13

Good choice. I almost chose Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet when I picked his 4th Quartet weeks ago.

For my listening, I'll be choosing between recordings by the Borodin Quartet (on EMI & Chandos), Fitzwilliam Quartet (on Decca: 



), Danel Quartet (on Fuga Libera: 



), Talich Quartet (on Dolce Volta: 



), and the St. Petersburg Quartet (on Hyperion)... if anyone's interested.


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## annaw

adriesba said:


> Are his other quartets dark and somber like this one? I don't think I could do more than one a day.


There's certainly a distinctive Shostakovichian mood - many of his late works deal with mortality and death. That's enough said about their dark and somber nature :lol:. But that doesn't mean they aren't utterly wonderful and genius works.

I revisited the Borodin quartet's recording of the 8th and it's very great. I love the quartet and the recording. I'm planning to listen to the Taneyev next.

Edited to add: Listened to the Taneyev and I agree with Merl. It's indeed a very fine account of the work.


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> .
> 
> What about the NKVD knocks and all the Jewish music?


The fact that we could hear the "door knocking" motif as a soundtrack to some kind of cartoon about Nazi Germany does seem to tie the music to fascism in a superficial way, yes. Ditto for the Jewish themes. But how does this relate to any kind of meaningful message about fascism? Maybe I'm just being too cynical.


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## annaw

flamencosketches said:


> The fact that we could hear the "door knocking" motif as a soundtrack to some kind of cartoon about Nazi Germany does seem to tie the music to fascism in a superficial way, yes. Ditto for the Jewish themes. But how does this relate to any kind of meaningful message about fascism? Maybe I'm just being too cynical.


Shostakovich supposedly said about his 7th Symphony that "of course, it's about fascism, but music, real music is never literally tied to a theme." I don't believe a piece of music can be inherently [something] (e.g fascist, religious, nihilistic etc). Music is arguably too abstact to communicate something universally meaningful about fascism. A person who knows nothing of the 8th SQ's background would probably not connect it with fascism or war at all.


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> The fact that we could hear the "door knocking" motif as a soundtrack to some kind of cartoon about Nazi Germany does seem to tie the music to fascism in a superficial way, yes. Ditto for the Jewish themes. But how does this relate to any kind of meaningful message about fascism? Maybe I'm just being too cynical.


But the knocks arent Nazi Germany, but Stalin's NKVD.


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## Merl

I hear a succession of moods in this quartet. For me the first movement gives me a feeling of uncertainty and hesitancy. The second has an atmosphere of violent struggle and anger and is followed by the a hiatus of sorts in the 3rd with almost an air of hope. In the 4th I hear anger and frustration before the final movement which feels deeply melancholic, almost nostalgic and finishes with almost a futile despair. That's just what I hear. It doesn't really tie in with Shosty's description but it feels that way to me. It's more of a personal trip through Shosty's mind than a piece about fascism to me but you have to respect what he said about it. Whatever, it's a terrific SQ.


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## Enthusiast

^ That's certainly closer to what I hear. I doubt I would bother with it if what I heard was threatening actions from a stereotyped group (whether apparently Gestapo, CIA or NKVD).


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## KenOC

Shostakovich dedicated this quartet "to the victims of fascism and the war." I don’t see why that should mean that the quartet is "about" fascism, and there’s certainly no reason to go looking for fascism in the music.

The work is full of self-quotes, suggesting that it’s actually autobiographical in nature, but that can only be speculation at this point.


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## Merl

The key to getting this quartet right, when I listen, is not to hammer through that 2nd movement. Of the accounts I've listened to up to now, the most successful have been hard-edged enough to convey the angst and struggle without sounding like they're trying to play as hard and fast as possible or underplaying it. It's a delicate balancing act.


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## Merl

Another glut of recordings for Shosty 8 and its the big hitters. I'll start with the first *Borodin* recording. My god, this is still is a stellar recording. Clear textures and an incredible clarity of line. This one's been at the apex of Shosty 8ths for some time and its hard to argue with its place at the head of the pack. Everything feels right with it. Superb on every level and faultless. 
Similarly the Fitzwilliam quartet play with assurance and are beautifully caught in this recording. For me the Fitwiliams have the advantage in the 2nd and 3rd movements and fire in their bellies but elsewhere the Borodins might have a slight edge. Another stunning recording. 
The *Carducci* quartet are technically superb and give a lovely, warm account of the quartet but perhaps without the requisite strength that the two previous quartets offer. Its a lovely account but in comparison to what I just heard its just not got the white hot intensity of the Borodins or Fitzwilliam.
Whilst the Carduccis may not have the requisite power I'm looking for the *Mandelring* Quartet have it in abundance. This is a thrilling performance enlivened by state of the art sonics and and a finely judged and pacey account. This one lives with the very best and is a joy from beginning to end. True, its final moments aren't as dark as others but there's many ways to play these quartets and the Mandelring do capture real deep emotion. A stunning recording.
The *Emerson* Quartet bring out the tension and darkness in the work with huge aplomb. Strings fizz and collide in the middle movements and theres a sense of palpable fury in the faster movements that is hard to ignore. Another great recording that revels in its gritty bleakness and angst.
The *St Lawrence* forces give a rough-sawn view of the quartet that is very engaging and the slightly brilliant recording adds earthiness. It's an impressive performance but others here have a slight edge and I'm not always convinced that the St Lawrence's are really plumbing the depths of despair towards the end but this is exceptionally fine playing. 
Finally today, the *Hagen Quartet* have a slightly more blended approach but equally as valid. Their ensemble playing is simply magnificent and their phrasing and use of dynamics are an absolute delight throughout. I doubt I've heard the final movement played as solemnly or achingly as this. Gorgeous.


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> But the knocks arent Nazi Germany, but Stalin's NKVD.


I don't see how that changes what I said; in any case, it's no more speculative to assume it's supposed to be one or the other, unless Shostakovich is on record somewhere saying that that was what he was trying to evoke with that motif (Volkov's Testimony doesn't count).


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> I don't see how that changes what I said; in any case, it's no more speculative to assume it's supposed to be one or the other, unless Shostakovich is on record somewhere saying that that was what he was trying to evoke with that motif (Volkov's Testimony doesn't count).


I happen to think Volkov's portrait was accurate even if some of the details were sketchy. Hard to believe Dsch lived through the Great Terror as close as he was to it, without it having an impact on the work

He 8th SQ is not just a piece of absolute music that can be listened to like Bach


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## Enthusiast

^ IMO that puts the value of the music down a peg or two. But it is also probably not true!


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## flamencosketches

Enthusiast said:


> ^ IMO that puts the value of the music down a peg or two. But it is also probably not true!


I would agree (were it true). Anyway I've not made up my mind just yet, but it's clear that some string quartets, at least, seem to play the 8th SQ with that programmatic notion in mind.

@BWV1080, I definitely agree that Stalin's Great Terror had an impact on his work, but I'm not sure that impact took the form of programmatic music. Maybe so, I'd have to think about it more, but I'm not entirely convinced. If we were alive in the 19th century, Enthusiast and I would have sided with the Brahms camp  Maybe my allergy to programmatic music is not such a good thing.


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## Iota

Have been listening to the Shostakovich 8 with the Fitwilliam Quartet, which is my preferred version I think. Though I also know the Pacifica and Shostakovich recordings and probably prefer the Pacifica's grotesquely cartoonish 3rd movement, which works really well in a movement that feels like it performs a kind of scherzo role. It feels intensely coherent as a work, the almost obsessive appearances of the DSCH theme going some way in achieving that, as well as in a way I think, ironically making it feel as if it might fall apart at any time.

On the programmatic-or-not question, I'm quite happy hearing it either way, though I feel from what I know, the evidence seems to point to an autobiographical angle, the victims of fascism dedication being a pragmatic one to appease the authorities. But either way, it retains an highly personal feel.

I find it remarkable he wrote it in three days whilst also working on a film score! Ideas seemed to force themselves up almost unceasingly from some inner magma chamber in him throughout his life. A will to compose that survived such traumatic pressures must have been an extraordinarily robust thing, as well as perhaps being a lifebelt for his sanity.


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> I would agree (were it true). Anyway I've not made up my mind just yet, but it's clear that some string quartets, at least, seem to play the 8th SQ with that programmatic notion in mind.
> 
> @BWV1080, I definitely agree that Stalin's Great Terror had an impact on his work, but I'm not sure that impact took the form of programmatic music. Maybe so, I'd have to think about it more, but I'm not entirely convinced. If we were alive in the 19th century, Enthusiast and I would have sided with the Brahms camp  Maybe my allergy to programmatic music is not such a good thing.


Also worth noting that Mahler, no stranger to programmatic music, was a primary influence on DSCH


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## Enthusiast

Perhaps the question is not one of whether or not a piece has a programme but whether the music stands up without whatever scaffold the composer did or didn't use to produce it. In any case my understanding of the creative process suggests to me that for many artists much that goes into a work is not conscious to them. I am not even sure that a masterpiece can ever be produced by following a conscious plan or programme.


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## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> Perhaps the question is not one of whether or not a piece has a programme but whether the music stands up without whatever scaffold the composer did or didn't use to produce it. In any case my understanding of the creative process suggests to me that for many artists much that goes into a work is not conscious to them. I am not even sure that a masterpiece can ever be produced by following a conscious plan or programme.


I think you'd rob Shosty from his deeply felt pain if you were to claim the music has no connection or no abstract programme at all. Abstract programme - it doesn't have to be a programme which could be put into words. The expressiveness of music largely lies in its power to "materialise" emotions in the form of sound waves. I see Shosty's 8th as similar non-programme programme music as Nielsen's "Det Uudslukkelige" which was meant to describe underlying emotions of real human experiences, not meant to describe the experiences themselves. Nielsen said that "music, even with all its resources, cannot even express the very simplest concepts of yes or no". We don't have to talk about a specific programme but its atmosphere which is certainly influenced by the society. Shostakovich's contemporaries in different life situations didn't write similarly agitated music but Shostakovich did and I think there's a very clear reason why he did.


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## annaw

I'm sick at home and decided to work through some Shosty 8 recordings today. Some of them overlap with those which Merl has already reviewed (Borodin 1, Hagen, Fitzwilliam) but I'm going to post my thoughts about the ones which don't overlap:

*Borodin 2nd* - This is my imprint. The textures of the first movement are well realised again but aren't as flowing or pure as in Borodin's 1st recording. It's also a bit more... pessimistic interpretation-wise because of some notes being more forcefully accented in the slower movements. The tempos of particularly last two movements are a bit slower. In overall, it's strikes me more pessimistic and dark compared to Borodin's 1 recording. The sound is very full, though, and I really like the recording.

*Kronos* - The quartet sounds very beautiful and the tone is rich and full. I also quite enjoyed many of their dynamic choices and occasional "expansions" of sound (in the 1st mvt for example). The second movement is _very_ fast and aggressive - I'm not entirely sure what I think of it. The same case with the third movement where I think the phrasing needs a bit more time to come really through and breath. I generally love brisk playing a lot but this is almost rushed. I liked the last movement, though, which was played with beautiful vibrato.

*Beethoven* - These fellows premiered the quartet. The first movement is played with deep feeling, although the sound is weird (kind of like projected into my head lol) and boxy. The second movement is quick but it's also so huge, powerful and fiery that it doesn't sound mechanic. The third movement retains its dancing rhythms and motifs - I feel it's just a better realisation of the same thing Kronos was trying to achieve because both are quick but this one doesn't sound rushed. The penultimate Largo is very serene and beautiful. A wonderful interpretation!

A quick philosophical digression from the recordings. After listening to the Borodins' and the Beethoven's recordings, which are undoubtedly the nearest thing to a realisation Shostakovich's intentions for this quartet, I think the quartet is not meant to convey deep hatred or aggressiveness. I think it's sad and melancholic with occasional serene and peaceful moments. It's thought-through and almost introverted. So, rather than depicting the Soviet Union or fascists, I think it depicts Shostakovich's reaction to them. I start feeling that he hid his views behind the abstractness of music as the other less abstract ways of communicating them were forbidden to him.

*Borodin (live)* - Another Borodin! Again, very thought-through interpretation. The playing provides some interesting insights and uses tempo and dynamics rather effectively, in my opinion. The interpretation resembles the forcefulness of Borodin 2 more than it resembles the refined Borodin 1, although it seems to be somewhere in the middle. I feel it's quicker than the studio recording but IIRC the slower interpretation of Borodin 2 was a result of new players in the quartet. There's not much to say - another marvellous Shosty from Borodin.

*Talich* - This is quite a shocking interpretation. The first movement is beautiful and somewhat introverted. Then there's the second movement which is played with an absolutely crushing tempo. But it's quite unbelievable how well the second movement is executed and sounds therefore very virtuosic. The third movement isn't as breathless though and remains playful. The last movement wasn't particularly dark but it was intense nevertheless. The skilfulness of playing makes this a particularly enjoyable in my opinion.

Some of my opinions of these recordings are based on what I thought of the 2nd and 3rd movements because those seem to be the riskiest ones which get interpreted very differently. Of course some quartets were outstanding in the slower movements (I liked Hagen for example) but there was less risk-taking with those.


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## Enthusiast

annaw said:


> I think you'd rob Shosty from his deeply felt pain if you were to claim the music has no connection or no abstract programme at all. Abstract programme - it doesn't have to be a programme which could be put into words. The expressiveness of music largely lies in its power to "materialise" emotions in the form of sound waves. I see Shosty's 8th as similar non-programme programme music as Nielsen's "Det Uudslukkelige" which was meant to describe underlying emotions of real human experiences, not meant to describe the experiences themselves. Nielsen said that "music, even with all its resources, cannot even express the very simplest concepts of yes or no". We don't have to talk about a specific programme but its atmosphere which is certainly influenced by the society. Shostakovich's contemporaries in different life situations didn't write similarly agitated music but Shostakovich did and I think there's a very clear reason why he did.


OK but what I was saying (or trying to!) was that a conscious plan/programme might not be so relevant as much of the inspiration that goes into a piece may not be consciously known to the composer - even though they will inevitably draw on what life has done to him (or her). The thing that gets me about the piece is that it seems in some ways to be backward looking. It is quite a late work (1960 - seven years after the 10th symphony) but seems (in some performances more than others) sometimes to use a language that Shostakovich had been moving away from for some time. So, it is believable to me that he sought to process memories in the piece or that the piece represents an important transition towards his late style.

I am not sure what you mean by saying that the music is more agitated than that of other composers of the time. Agitated music had been a fairly common feature of the contemporary scene from Bartok onward but by 1960 few active composers had lived through the very grim 30s and 40s and were perhaps less coloured by the events of that period. But I think the more distinctive parts of the quartet are rather intense in a slightly grim rather than agitated way. Three of the five movements are marked Largo. The Allegro Molto is certainly agitated but it is very brief and I find the Allegretto that follows it more sardonic than restless. I really do think we belittle Shostakovich's achievement here by reducing it to a programme. I agree that such a programme might not be describable in words. But, then, what does it mean to say it has a programme at all?


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## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> OK but what I was saying (or trying to!) was that a conscious plan/programme might not be so relevant as much of the inspiration that goes into a piece may not be consciously known to the composer - even though they will inevitably draw on what life has done to him (or her). The thing that gets me about the piece is that it seems in some ways to be backward looking. It is quite a late work (1960 - seven years after the 10th symphony) but seems (in some performances more than others) sometimes to use a language that Shostakovich had been moving away from for some time. So, it is believable to me that he sought to process memories in the piece or that the piece represents an important transition towards his late style.


I get that and I think I agree, although I'm not a composer, so I really cannot know. I was just trying to say that the programme itself doesn't need to be perfectly conscious. I think most great pieces, in absolute music as well, mean to express something. For programmatic music, programme is important. Whether Shosty 8 is traditionally programmatic, I don't know. It's thematic rather than programmatic.



> I am not sure what you mean by saying that the music is more agitated than that of other composers of the time. Agitated music had been a fairly common feature of the contemporary scene from Bartok onward but by 1960 few active composers had lived through the very grim 30s and 40s and were perhaps less coloured by the events of that period. But I think the more distinctive parts of the quartet are rather intense in a slightly grim rather than agitated way. Three of the five movements are marked Largo. The Allegro Molto is certainly agitated but it is very brief and I find the Allegretto that follows it more sardonic than restless. I really do think we belittle Shostakovich's achievement here by reducing it to a programme. I agree that such a programme might not be describable in words. But, then, what does it mean to say it has a programme at all?


I'm not trying to reduce it to a programme but I am simply saying that I don't think it had a typical programme - I think Merl described a possible "emotion" programme rather well earlier. However, there must be a reason why Shostakovich said it has a theme and ignoring that theme doesn't let us evaluate an interpretation fairly. If someone played it so that it strikes light and happy, you wouldn't be able to say that it shouldn't be so. Your opinion would be entirely subjective. If I acknowledge its theme, I can say that it's highly likely that Shostakovich didn't mean it to be performed as 20 minutes of pure joyfulness. The interpretation wouldn't be truthful to the piece. It's still subjective but this time grounded on something relatively objective. Interestingly, it has also been suggested that the quartet was actually written in memory of the bombing of Dresden. Shostakovich had been forced to join the communist party and during that period his health started to decline. I cannot imagine that at least some of it is not projected onto an interpretation just through pure emotions.

Let me correct myself. I meant that very few other composers seemed to be so strongly influenced by their surrounding society. Shostakovich's agitation didn't take its form only as Allegros and Prestos, it can be heard in the Largos, in his Allegrettos. I would say that Bartok's restlessness is different from Shostakovich's but as I said somewhere earlier in this thread, I think this has to do with my own interpretation as well.


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## Enthusiast

^ Oh yes: the piece definitely has a mood and is definitely very distinctively by Shostakovich. I would even risk saying that that it is a product of a combination of its composer's life experience and musical character. And I am quite comfortable with the idea that Shostakovich set out to write the work that he did actually write - for such an experienced composer, how could it be otherwise? 

We are, of course, agreeing for the most part and having a conversation about a work we love. We have noted that different performances find different things in it (but do not go completely against the nature of the work!!!). And along the way we have both ditched any simplistic idea of a literal historically-based programme.


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## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Oh yes: the piece definitely has a mood and is definitely very distinctively by Shostakovich. I would even risk saying that that it is a product of a combination of its composer's life experience and musical character. And I am quite comfortable with the idea that Shostakovich set out to write the work that he did actually write - for such an experienced composer, how could it be otherwise?
> 
> We are, of course, agreeing for the most part and having a conversation about a work we love. We have noted that different performances find different things in it (but do not go completely against the nature of the work!!!). And along the way we have both ditched any simplistic idea of a literal historically-based programme.


I think we're largely in an agreement as well. I don't know why I had to go so far to realise that :lol:.


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## Merl

Wow, Annaw, you basically chose all the ones I've listened to over the last 2 days (but I crammed in a few more too) and I largely agree with your comments.

I'll be honest, I didn't like the *Kronos* recording much. It sounded scratchy, rushed and lacked weight. Agree that the slower movements come off better but its just not my bag. The *Orava* quartet are much more successful and whilst there's some license with phrasing and dynamics it sounds wholly convincing and the group are caught really well in a veey nice acoustic. An excellent account. The *Borodin 2 *is, as Annaw said, are slower but there's a lovely, dark tragic feel to it. I may prefer their original but this is still a great recording and the rich, thick sound is very alluring. The *Beethoven* Quartet recording is not one I've ever enjoyed. I last heard this years ago and thought the recording was awful. My opinion hasn't changed much. Even worse than the limited sound is some intonation problems and occasional lapses of ensemble. I won't dwell on this one. Not competitive for me. The *Talich* SQ play brilliantly throughout and don't put a foot wrong. It may not be my fave up to now but it's highly accomplished. More to follow. My phone battery is nearly dead and I don't want to lose what I've already written.


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## Merl

Whilst the phone is charging here's part 2 of my last lot of reviews. First a mention for a few recordings that didnt do much for me and those were from the *Lafayette* (iffy sound), *Skampa* (not involved enough) and *Voces Intimae* (dull recording) quartets. The *Dragon*, *Sorrel* and *Byron* recordings were far more successful. The Byrons sound very like the Carducci recording I reviewed. Its an impressive performance and superbly recorded. The Dragon quartet are fine here too in a nicely balanced effort. The *Sorrel* recording has caused me the most issues and i need to listen to it again. Its a terrificly clear and full recording but I got distracted part way through. Special mention here goes to three exemplary accounts from the Danel, Alexander and Pacifica Quartets. The *Pacifica* recording (from their superb cycle) is lively, gloriously recorded and stunningly played. From a blisteringly quick 2nd movement to an achingly melancholy last one, this is special. The *Alexanders* are more square and meticulous in their approach and some may not rate this as highly as me but it pays huge dividends and I love it. Possibly one of the best-played accounts ive heard. The *Danel's* approach is at the polar opposite from the darker end of the versions ive reviewed but their gallic charm is no less valid and as an alternative I found this highly enjoyable, even if tge heavy breathing from close miking is a bit distracting, at first. It may wear a little on repeated listening but i thoroughly enjoyed it initially.
I thought my time would be constricted this week but ive had way more time than i imagined. If i get a bit more time tomorrow theres just a few more id like to hear but for now that's it.


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## annaw

^^ The Beethoven quartet’s recording was extremely weird. It’s a whole new level of boxiness and limited dynamic range. The sound is honestly very peculiarly projected. I need to give it another listen tomorrow to see if my view of it was somehow biased and my ears clogged because of my cold, or maybe I’m just a lunatic who likes the interpretation (certainly not the sound, though).


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## Merl

annaw said:


> ^^ The Beethoven quartet's recording was extremely weird. It's a whole new level of boxiness and limited dynamic range. The sound is honestly very peculiarly projected. I need to give it another listen tomorrow to see if my view of it was somehow biased and my ears clogged because of my cold, or maybe I'm just a lunatic who likes the interpretation (certainly not the sound, though).


No, you're right. The recording feels like everyone is playing in a small cardboard box, not entirely in tune or at the same time. I thought it sounded awful. I listened to the Pacifica immediately after it and it was like chalk and cheese. I much prefer to eat cheese. .


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> it was like chalk and cheese


I was not familiar with this expression before I came to this forum, and every time I've seen it I've chuckled. I'm assuming it must be a uniquely British saying?

With the state of events in the world right now I can't say I'm really in the mood for listening to Shostakovich's quartets this week, added to the fact that I have heard this work several times means I'm sort of taking the week off. But I am listening to the Hagen right now and it is an interesting interpretation quite different from the classic Borodins we are all familar with. Still very dark and creepy but in its own way - dare I say more lightweight, but that's not a negative thing at all. Have to say that the Fitzwilliams are usually my go-to for Shosty quartets over the Borodins - I find them more expressive and sympathetic to the idiom with more attractive tone (though maybe attractive tone is not what we should be looking for...)


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I was not familiar with this expression before I came to this forum, and every time I've seen it I've chuckled. I'm assuming it must be a uniquely British saying?


Yes it is, ACB. Usually used to mean two things that are very different or almost opposites. "As different as chalk and cheese".


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## annaw

I listened to *Pacifica* and I'm in total agreement with Merl - it's a very special recording. The sound is amazing and there is a similar clarity of line as in Borodin 1 - Shostakovich and nothing else. What I think is wonderful about the second movement is that, like a few other quartets, they manage to retain some sort of phrasing even during the very first "hammering" notes. It all sounds interpreted, not just ran through. Amazing handling of dynamics in the third movement as well and it's throughout a really terrific recording and a great account of the work. I also listened to the *Mandelring* which I think interpretation-wise is a bit similar to the Pacifica, although I think I slightly prefer the ensemble sound of Pacifica, which is a bit warmer, but both are utterly stunning. The fourth movement of Mandelring is played faster than usually but it's very effective. These two recordings achieve a nice balance between Shosty's somewhat sardonic compositional language and the underlying melancholy of this work.

Merl, I listened to the Beethoven quartet's recording again. Maybe it's due to opera listening (50s La Scala and 40s Metropolitan should have asked some advice about recording technology from the Germans...) but I've become a bit indifferent of the sound quality even in chamber music, especially if I know it's only one of many recordings. I still think their interpretation is effective, though. It retains some sort of intimacy and the arguably idiosyncratic second movement is still full of fire. I'm bad at evaluating whether the instruments are out of tune or not but I take your word for it. Certainly not my first choice but just a historically significant recording.


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## Bwv 1080

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I was not familiar with this expression before I came to this forum, and every time I've seen it I've chuckled. I'm assuming it must be a uniquely British saying?


Yes, I think chalk and cheese is some British food thing, probably with mar-mite spread over it


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## Enthusiast

^ Chalk and cheese are two things that couldn't be more different even if they look somewhat similar. So the saying is "they are as different as chalk and cheese". It is commonly used to ask how it is possible to choose the best between two things like Bruckner and Mozart. We British do not eat the two together ... indeed, we don't eat chalk at all. Not even with Marmite.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> . indeed, we don't eat chalk at all. Not even with Marmite.


Speak for yourself, Enthusiast. My organic chalk from Waitrose tastes gorgeous on a butty with Piccalilli.


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## Enthusiast

Sorry - I should have said "we English do not ... (etc)".


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## Merl

Up here in Chillyjockoland, they'd probably cover chalk in batter and then deep-fry it. If they can deep fry a pizza they can deep-fry anything.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Up here in Chillyjockoland, they'd probably cover chalk in batter and then deep-fry it. If they can deep fry a pizza they can deep-fry anything.


Texas culture making it's way around the world, I see. Call me when it's a roast pig stuffed with a deep-fried turkey stuffed with a pizza wrapped around deep-fried butter sticks stuffed with chalk.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> Texas culture making it's way around the world, I see. Call me when it's a roast pig stuffed with a deep-fried turkey stuffed with a pizza wrapped around deep-fried butter sticks stuffed with chalk.


Now that's MANLY!


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Now that's MANLY!


Turkey sounds quite birdy to me...


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## Josquin13

I was a friend of the late American composer, Alan Stout, who passed away in early 2019. Alan knew and corresponded with Shostakovich. I believe they may have met at Northwestern University (where Alan taught composition) when the school awarded Shostakovich an honorary doctorate in 1973. But it may have been before that, since Alan was also friends with the conductor Gennady Rozhdestvensky, who he used to jokingly call, "My spy in the Soviet Union." I don't know when Alan met Rozhdestvensky, either, or whether the conductor was responsible for Alan meeting Shostakovich or Shostakovich was later responsible for introducing Alan to Rozhdestvensky, but Rozhdestvensky was a long time friend and champion of Shostakovich and his music. Which put Alan within the composer's circle, or at least means that at one point he had both direct and indirect access to Shostakovich's thoughts.

Which brings me to a brief discussion that I had with Alan about Shostakovich's 8th String Quartet. It occurred in 1979. We were eating lunch together in Evanston, Illinois, and I remember telling him that I had fallen asleep the night before with my bedside radio on (an old habit of mine), and was awoken in the middle of the night by music that sounded eerily similar to Bernard Hermann's film score at the end of Alfred Hitchcock's movie Psycho--when Norman Bates, dressed as his mother, enters wielding a large knife. I couldn't get the music out of my head, & I wondered if it might have been a work by Sibelius? Alan thought for a moment, and suggested that it could have been Sibelius's tone poem, "Pohjola's Daughter." However, he then added that Hermann might have also been influenced by Shostakovich's String Quartet No. 8, as well. At the time I didn't know the 8th quartet, and when I told Alan that I'd try to hear it, he offered some background information to keep in mind:

He told me that Shostakovich had composed the quartet after WW2 in direct reaction to seeing the aftermath of the destruction of the city of Dresden by allied bombers at the end of the war. He told me that Shostakovich had been in Dresden after the war (it was actually in 1960, but the city was still in ruins), and was horrified by what he saw. Of that I am certain. However, this is where my memory gets a bit less certain: I also believe that Alan told me Shostakovich had visited and known Dresden before the war--as a younger man--which of course would make the composer's reaction to its ruins all the more personal and deeply felt.

Now, I've never bothered to do any research on the topic of whether Shostakovich knew Dresden before the war, or whether that is a known fact to his biographers. So, I can't say with absolute certainty that what I am recalling in regards to this small but important detail is correct or not. However I do believe that what I am remembering is accurate, and it does seem plausible that Shostakovich might have visited Dresden prior to WW2, considering that Dresden was one of the great musical capitals of the world at that time. Indeed, if the Soviet authorities had allowed Shostakovich to travel outside of Russia prior to the war--as they did to Prague and Warsaw, for instance--the city of Dresden would have likely been a prime place that Shostakovich was most eager to visit. Moreover, if Shostakovich had indeed traveled to Dresden during his younger years, such a trip would have allowed him to experience the city's rich musical life and cultural heritage, which was arguably unparalleled in Europe & Russia. So, I don't see it as a stretch to assume that such a visit to Dresden before the war could have been a deeply meaningful experience for Shostakovich (& especially so if he had traveled there with his 1st wife, Nina, i.e., in a more innocent time, since it has been said that Shostakovich never got over her death in November 1954. In fact, he quotes the love lament from his opera Lady Macbeth in his 8th String Quartet, an opera that was dedicated to Nina. In addition, his 7th String Quartet was likewise dedicated to her--so it seems very likely that Nina was still on Shostakovich's mind when he composed his 8th String Quartet in 1960.). Which of course would have made the experience of seeing this once great musical capital, with its former architectural riches, such as the Semperoper--the magnificent opera house & concert hall of the Staatskapelle Dresden--now in ruins, all the more devastating to the composer.

Alan said nothing about fascism, or victims of fascism to me in regards to the quartet; although, according to the score, Shostakovich dedicated the quartet "to the victims of fascism and the war". Shostakovich's son, Maxim, interpreted this sombre dedication as referring to all victims of "totalitarianism". But for Alan, the music was directly inspired by Shostakovich's reaction to what he saw in Dresden. Which doesn't make the other ideas about the quartet implausible or wrong, indeed the catalyst may have been the bombed out Dresden, but that doesn't mean the quartet didn't or can't have other expanded meanings and universal connections, along with close ties to Shostakovich and his life. For example, in addition to the quote from his opera, Lady Macbeth, there are other direct quotations in the quartet, such as in the fourth movement, where Shostakovich quotes from the 19th century Russian song, "Zamuchen tyazholoy nevolyey", or "Tormented by Grievous Bondage" (which I've seen alternatively translated as "Exhausted by the hardships of prison"). But whatever those expanded meanings are, I see this quartet as a deeply felt and personal utterance. The emotions expressed in the music are closely autobiographical. They are something that Shostakovich felt and experienced first hand. According to the composer's friend Isaak Davidovich Glikman, Shostakovich saw the quartet as kind of self-portrait which he ironically dedicated to his own memory. On July 19th, 1960, Shostakovich wrote the following to Glikman in a letter:

"I reflected that if I die someday then it's hardly likely anyone will write a work dedicated to my memory. So I decided to write one myself. You could even write on the cover: 'Dedicated to the memory of the composer of this quartet'."

The Borodin Quartet's account of playing the work for Shostakovich only further attests to the deep personal emotions expressed in the music: Here is a passage written by critic Erik Smith, which is drawn from the liner notes to the Borodin's 1962 recording,

"The Borodin Quartet played this work to the composer at his Moscow home, hoping for his criticisms. But Shostakovich, overwhelmed by this beautiful realisation of his most personal feelings, buried his head in his hands and wept. When they had finished playing, the four musicians quietly packed up their instruments and stole out of the room."

Peter J. Rabinowitz has additionally pointed out that there are "covert references" to Richard Strauss's Metamorphosen in this Quartet (in his book, "The Rhetoric of Reference; or, Shostakovich's Ghost Quartet"). Of course, Strauss worked regularly in Dresden as both a conductor and composer over the course of his long career, and many of his works, such as his greatest operas, were premiered at the old Semperoper. Indeed, early in his career Strauss formed a close working relationship with the Staatskapelle Dresden that lasted six decades. As with the quartet, Strauss's Metamorphosen has a similar direct tie to the end of the WW2, as it was composed during the final months of the war, between August 1944 and March 1945. In other words, it was created during the very same period that the Allied forces destroyed the city of Dresden in February 13-15, 1945. Interestingly, in Metamorphosen, Strauss echoes his early work, Death and Transfiguration (which, by the way, he also quotes from in his Four Last Songs, composed in 1948). However, for Strauss, the destruction that he witnessed was more likely of the city of Munich (although it could have been in relation to Dresden, as well, whose destruction he had surely heard news of). The following passage about Metamorphosen is taken from Wikipedia:

"It has been widely believed that Strauss wrote the work as a statement of mourning for Germany's destruction during the war, in particular as an elegy for the devastating bombing of Munich, especially places such as the Munich Opera House."

Also from Wikipedia, shortly after finishing Metamorphosen, "Strauss wrote in his diary":

"The most terrible period of human history is at an end, the twelve year reign of bestiality, ignorance and anti-culture under the greatest criminals, during which Germany's 2,000 years of cultural evolution met its doom."

In my view, Strauss's experience of Munich sheds light on how Shostakovich similarly viewed the destruction of the city of Dresden in 1960 and likewise turned it into music with more universal themes and implications in mind. Therefore, it's hardly surprising that Shostakovich set about to consciously link his 8th String Quartet to Strauss's Metamorphosen, considering that there are thematic parallels between the two works regarding their wartime subject matter. I see both works as important masterpieces of the mid-20th century, and inextricably linked.

Metamorphosen for 23 Solo Strings: 









Shostakovich 8th String Quartet: 
Fitzwilliam Quartet, 1976: 




https://www.nytimes.com/1973/06/12/...torate-at-northwestern-visits-the-modern.html

--The following excellent article is where I got much of my information & translations quoted above: http://www.quartets.de/compositions/ssq08.html. Of further, relevant interest, the writer points out that "at the beginning of the fourth movement, three notes are repeated against a low drone: the sound of anti aircraft flak and the menacing whine of a bomber high in the sky above." If I'm not mistaken, the sounds of bombers in the sky can also be heard in Strauss's Metamorphosen.


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## annaw

Thanks for your post, Josquin! A really fascinating story.


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## Iota

Josquin13 said:


> According to the composer's friend Isaak Davidovich Glikman, Shostakovich saw the quartet as kind of self-portrait which he ironically dedicated to his own memory. On July 19th, 1960, Shostakovich wrote the following to Glikman in a letter:
> 
> "I reflected that if I die someday then it's hardly likely anyone will write a work dedicated to my memory. So I decided to write one myself. You could even write on the cover: 'Dedicated to the memory of the composer of this quartet'."


I've read it said that this letter was a strong indication that Shostakovich wrote the 8th Quartet as some kind of suicide note, as by the time he arrived in Dresden things had become almost intolerable for him, for some of the reasons you mention and others. People (including Maxim I think) were concerned that he might be feeling suicidal and responded accordingly. I can find the link where I read that if anybody interested.


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## Merl

I think I'm Shostied out now with the final 3 recordings but all were very good solid performances from the Edinburgh, Melos and particularly the Aviv quartets. I probably liked the *Aviv* recording best of the 3. The *Edinburgh* quartet were a little light in the 2nd and 3rd movements and it didn't bounce enough in the 3rd for me but they were achingly haunting in the final two. The *Melos* was just a good, solid reading but the Aviv quartet were warmer in the first half and very dark and sorrowful in the second half. The last movement was a particular highlight for me. So I'm leaving it there. I'll round up my listening probably tomorrow. 
It's been a joy revisiting this one and listening to so many unfamiliar (and familiar) recordings.Big thanks to Jos for his informative post earlier.


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## Malx

During the week I have listened a few times to the two recordings I have in my collection of the Shostakovich 8th quartet - Borodin (second set) and the Pacifica. I also sampled the following using Qobuz - Pavel Haas, Rubio, Danel.
My personal conclusion is that I am happy to stick with what I have got, both the Borodins and the Pacifica seem to get to the sole of the piece better than the others I checked out, the others I tried were fine but for me lack that little something that makes the difference.


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## Merl

I have listened to a huge number of Shosty 8s this week and have been impressed at the strength and high quality of most recordings. This really has been a quartet very well served on disc. To sum up my listening here's what I think. Tbh, my conclusions, for once aren't that far off Trout's list.

I would heartiy recommend all of the recordings below and there's not that much that kept these outta the top tier. They just needed that little bit more.

Rubio
Chilingirian
Altius
Carducci
Brodsky 
Manhattan
Jerusalem
Orava
Danel
Medici
Byron
Dragon
Aris 
St Lawrence
Talich
Aviv
Borodin 2

However, there were quite a few that were just top of the shop. I could hardly put a flea's chest hair between this lot. All of these are special for different reasons and it really depends what you like / what mood you're in which of these you really rate. So here's my top ten in no particular order.

*Borodin 1 *- still amazing 50 years after it was released. 
*Hagen* - stunning ensemble playing
*Mandelring* - I knew of this one but hadn't heard it. I'm going to be getting the full cycle on the strength of this.
*Emerson* - wonderful bravura account
*Alexander* - great recording. Meticulously played.
*Fitzwilliam* - still a killer performance and I love the sound of it.
*Sorrel* - this has had mixed reviews when it came out but I don't know why. It's wonderful and many people rate this as highly as me. Further plays make it even better.
*Pacifica* - wonderfully recorded, top account from my go-to cycle.
*Taneyev* - this one surprised me. Very effective performance.
*Yggdrasil* - another that came outta nowhere but what a fantastic surprise.

I suppose some people will say "come on Merl, pin your colours to one mast" but I really couldn't. I love all 10 of these equally for different reasons. If you forced me at gunpoint to give a favourite I might say a different one each day. Some here are classics and deserve such status (Fitzwilliam, Borodin, Emerson) but the others are just as impressive to me (others will, no doubt, disagree). The one I return to most is the Pacifica but that was before I found some of these. I look forward to living with all of these (thanks Spotify) over the coming years.


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## Josquin13

Merl,

Thanks for your post. I think you'll agree that we're living in a golden age for string quartet playing. Your posts over the past weeks, months, attest to this.

I've taken over for Allegro Con Brio, temporarily. Portamento will be picking for next week. Are you still out there, Portamento? If not, Shosty is up next. I'll try to get hold of Portamento via a private message. If they don't respond, are you ready with a quartet for next Sunday, Shosty? (If not Shosty, then sbmonty?)


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## flamencosketches

Of the two I've listened to this week, Kronos and Pacifica, I definitely prefer the Pacifica. I really love their Shostakovich cycle. 

@Josquin, thanks much for sharing. Whether or not DSCH really did travel to Dresden as a young man, you can tell that seeing it in ruins deeply disturbed him. Somehow I knew nothing of the Dresden connection at all until reading your post, but listening now, I definitely hear it—and I can hear how it ties to Strauss's Metamorphosen. Thinking about the work in this light does allow some of the programmatic elements to click a little bit more (though I still do not hear those pulses as door knocks ) 

A great work.


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Merl,
> 
> Thanks for your post. I think you'll agree that we're living in a golden age for string quartet playing. Your posts over the past weeks, months, attest to this.


Until I came to TC, I never considered the string quartet as interesting as symphonies. I liked and loved some of them (Ravel, Beethoven, etc) but lacked experience of many others. However, since coming here all those years ago I've read many SQ posts in the chamber section by many knowleable members (eg you-Jos, Mandryka, etc). I rarely commented much due to my lack of experience of recordings / certain composers but I've been doing my homework for the past 5 years and lurking in the chamber section and consider SQs as an essential part of my daily listening. I agree that we are definitely in a golden age of SQ recordings. We have the great ones of the past (many which have been remastered, etc) plus some seriously excellent new recordings. I'm loving this thread and it's introduced me to some great music but it is seriously costing me a lot of money. Do I care? No. I love hearing new music and enjoy saying what I like about it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Hello all. It seems that returning to work has seriously upset my previous routine of hanging out on TC all day while listening to music as I had been doing during the lockdown. Consequently I seem to only be making it to this thread once or twice a week as opposed to daily. In any case, besides discovering the difference between chalk and cheese (at least in the UK), I have now discovered this wonderful quartet. Shostakovich is a composer that I have been holding off on delving into as his music (at first listen) has been a little heavy for my tastes. To date I've only listened to a small handful of his works as I want to be in the right frame of mind when I start exploring his music in earnest. I'm appreciative of the very informative post by @Josquin13 above. After reading the part about Shosty's reaction when the Borodins played for him and also Merl's commendation, I decided to play the Borodin 1 which I found on YouTube. 

I have to say, this quartet is one of the most haunting things I've heard. You can hear the pain with which he composed it. Absolutely beautiful. The knocking was so eerie. It made me think of what life must have been like for all of those who lived out their lives behind the iron curtain. Anyways, excellent choice this week. Thanks everyone.


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## Josquin13

Great post, BlackAdderLXX!

Merl,

I've privately messaged Portamento, Shosty, & sbmonty about next weeks' SQ pick. My first week 'on the job' is turning into a disaster!, as none of the three have responded--at least, not yet. In case I don't hear back from them, you're next on the list. Could you possibly be ready with your quartet pick by tomorrow evening, as back up, so that we're covered? I know from our conversation two weeks ago that you're ready with a pick, so I'm hoping that it won't be a problem. (If one of the others then reappears and is upset that they missed their turn, they can always pick a quartet the week after you.)


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Great post, BlackAdderLXX!
> 
> Merl,
> 
> I've privately messaged Portamento, Shosty, & sbmonty about next weeks' SQ pick. My first week 'on the job' is turning into a disaster!, as none of the three have responded--at least, not yet. In case I don't hear back from them, you're next on the list. Could you possibly be ready with your quartet pick by tomorrow evening, as back up, so that we're covered? I know from our conversation two weeks ago that you're ready with a pick, so I'm hoping that it won't be a problem. (If one of the others then reappears and is upset that they missed their turn, they can always pick a quartet the week after you.)


Course I can. I had 3 quartets I was thinking of doing but ive narrowed it down to 1. Its not a massively popular one with stacks of recordings, thankfully, and im sure you'll like it Jos. If the others pick one then ill just drop back in line. Nps.


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## Rangstrom

To my regret I haven't been following this thread. I hope to jump in with the next selection, although I tend not to listen to music through the web. With luck I'll own a physical copy.


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## thejewk

Stumbled across this thread today just as I was doing my first exploration of Shostakovich's Quartets, which I received in the post last week, the set of 13 by the Borodin Quartet on Chandos.

The 8th really is a remarkable first listen. The things that stood out on first impression were:

Certain phrases in the first movement turn from sweet sounding notes of promise descending down to introspective sorrow in a heartbeat. 

The other feature I found remarkable is the use of almost drone like sections, particularly a few cello notes held for an extended period, and most effectively a long and bedraggled sustained viola note played between unison playing of the violins and cello during the fourth movement. At least in the one recording I've heard, the viola almost sounds like it might crack.

I was fully engaged by the whole piece, and will be listening a few more times tomorrow.


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## Josquin13

thejewk,

The "almost drone like section" at the the beginning of the 4th movement is thought to intentionally mimic the whine of air bombers high above and the three knocks, anti aircraft flak. (You might find my lengthy post above interesting.) In Russia, they call the 8th quartet Shostakovich's "Dresden" Quartet, because he composed it in three days while visiting the bombed out ruins of Dresden in 1960, which effected him deeply.

Here's the sound of modern Anti-aircraft flak, which presumably would have some similarity to what Shostakovich might have heard in Russia during WW2:






For the sake of comparison, here is a link to the Borodin Quartet's 1962 recording (you can click on 10:40 to hear just the Largo: 



, and the Fitzwilliam Quartet playing the 4th movement, as well: 



.


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## sbmonty

Merl said:


> Course I can. I had 3 quartets I was thinking of doing but ive narrowed it down to 1. Its not a massively popular one with stacks of recordings, thankfully, and im sure you'll like it Jos. If the others pick one then ill just drop back in line. Nps.


I just responded to Josquin's PM. Had to work today, so just read it. But if Merl is ready then please go ahead, and I can choose next week if Portamento and Shosty haven't reappeared. Thanks for taking over this task Josquin. Greatly appreciated. This is a terrific thread.

Cheers!


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## Josquin13

Okay, I've now heard from Portamento, Shosty, and sbmonty (as he mentions above), regarding next week's quartet choice. Portamento has asked to postpone until next week, while Shosty is sick with COVID-19, but has gotten through his first week and fortunately says he's feeling better. That means sbmonty is up next on our list, and he's ready to go with a quartet for tomorrow.

So sbmonty, it's your turn.

Merl, thanks for being on call as a back up. Your pick will come after Portamento chooses next week.

Thanks everyone.


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## thejewk

Thanks for the links and interesting posts Josquin. That website with a section for each of the quartets will be most useful for my exploration of the rest of the cycle as well.


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> I just responded to Josquin's PM. Had to work today, so just read it. But if Merl is ready then please go ahead, and I can choose next week if Portamento and Shosty haven't reappeared. Thanks for taking over this task Josquin. Greatly appreciated. This is a terrific thread.
> 
> Cheers!


You're not getting out of it that easy, sbmonty. I'm back in the queue. It's your shout.


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## sbmonty

Well then, firstly I would like to wish my very best to Shosty. I am happy to hear they are recovering.

I was initially going to go with either Martinů No. 5 or Dvořák No. 10. I eventually settled on:

*Sibelius: String Quartet In D Minor, Op. 56, "Voces Intimae"*

I chose this primarily because, despite it's relative popularity, I haven't explored it much at all and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this work. There are also quite a number of choices for comparative listening. One day I do hope we get to discussing Martinů's cycle however.

I own only one recording of this work by the Dante Quartet.


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> Well then, firstly I would like to wish my very best to Shosty. I am happy to hear they are recovering.
> 
> I was initially going to go with either Martinů No. 5 or Dvořák No. 10. I eventually settled on:
> 
> *Sibelius: String Quartet In D Minor, Op. 56, "Voces Intimae"*
> 
> I chose this primarily because, despite it's relative popularity, I haven't explored it much at all and I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this work. There are also quite a number of choices for comparative listening. One day I do hope we get to discussing Martinů's cycle however.
> 
> I own only one recording of this work by the Dante Quartet.


Oh god there's tons of this one and I have a few.

Some background from wiki:



> Composed between his Third and Fourth Symphony, it remained "the only major work for string quartet of Sibelius's mature period".
> 
> Sibelius composed the quartet from December 1908, working on it in London in early 1909. The Latin title, translating to "Intimate Voices" or "Inner voices", marks a "conversational quality" and "inwardness" of the music. The composer wrote about his work in a letter to his wife: "It turned out as something wonderful. The kind of thing that brings a smile to your lips at the hour of death. I will say no more." Sibelius showed it to his publisher Robert Lienau on 15 April 1909.
> 
> The first performance was on 25 April 1910 at the Helsinki Music Institute. A review in the Helsingin Sanomat noted: "The composition attracted a great deal of attention, and it is undoubtedly one of the most brilliant products in its field. It is not a composition for the public at large, it is so eccentric and out of the ordinary.". Sibelius later wrote about the composition: "The melodic material is good but the harmonic material could be 'lighter', and even 'more like a quartet."
> 
> Sibelius structured the quartet in five movements:
> 
> Andante - Allegro molto moderato
> Vivace
> Adagio di molto
> Allegretto (ma pesante)
> Allegro
> 
> The work opens with a dialogue of violin and cello. The first movement contrasts "murmurous figuration with firm chords". The second movement is a scherzo in A major, connected to the first by musical motifs. The central slow movement has been described as a "soulful quest for serenity in F major". It contains "three detached, soft chords in E minor, remote from any of the previous harmonic implications", to which Sibelius added the "voces intimae" in a friend's score. A second scherzo is also connected by motivic similarity to the first movement. The finale, "with more than a hint of folk fiddling", grows in intensity by markings from Allegro to "sempre più energico" (always more energetic), described as "fiercely accented music of forceful contrasts but irresistible momentum".


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## Simplicissimus

^ This is a great choice! I’m starting to listen and love it. Can’t believe I’ve not gotten into this SQ before now. On streaming, I’m going with the Emersons and the Tempera Quartet (Finnish).


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## Josquin13

A terrific choice, sbmonty, thanks. It's worth mentioning that the period between the Sibelius 3rd & 4th Symphonies was a very difficult time for Sibelius & his wife, so that may be part of this quartet, as it is known to be a part of his 4th Symphony. It will be interesting to hear.

thejewk writes, "That website with a section for each of the quartets will be most useful for my exploration of the rest of the cycle as well."

Yes, that website is exceptional. I've found it to be an invaluable guide to the whole cycle of Shostakovich's string quartets & to each quartet. It was helpful when we did Shostakovich's 4th String Quartet earlier in our thread.

Lastly, I wanted to mention a mistake that I made in my previous post. I wrote that the sounds of anti-aircraft flak that I linked to were "modern", however, they are not, they're actually from the World War Two era. So they are precisely the kinds of sounds that Shostakovich would have heard and known. Therefore, it's definitely worth comparing these sounds to the 4th movement of the 8th, as the similarities are striking.


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## Merl

I've done my usual list for the Sibelius SQ. Here's all the recordings I found (see pic below). There are 34 of them - feel free to mention any others you know of. I have the Tempera, Emerson, Engegard and Fitzwilliam. Looking forward to sampling the others. At over half an hour in length I don't know how many I'll get thru this week but at least I can review the ones I've got almost immediately (after a quick reminder of how they sound). I only played the Fitzwilliam recording (my standard reference for this one) a few weeks ago so that's still fresh in the memory.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I've done my usual list for the Sibelius SQ. Here's all the recordings I found (see pic below). There are 34 of them - feel free to mention any others you know of. I have the Tempera, Emerson, Engegard and Fitzwilliam. Looking forward to sampling the others.
> 
> View attachment 143329


I've found two recordings which are available on Youtube but not on any streaming:

Budapest has done (at least) two recordings: 1933 and 1956. The 1933 was reissued by Warner in 2015 as a part of a bigger boxset but the individual performance is here: 




There's also a live recording by Smetana quartet (1956) - 




I'm really excited about getting better acquainted with this string quartet!


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## Josquin13

On first impression, the Smetana Quartet sounds like they find more gravitas in this music than others. I've briefly looked into the quartet, which was composed in 1908-1909, and was apparently right to connect it to the 4th Symphony--Sibelius's biographer Erik Tawaststejerna writes, "both Voces Intimae and the Fourth Symphony[1910-11] reflect his inner life during the years immediately after the operation [for a tumour] when he had passed through the shadow of the valley of death." I'll comment more on this later.

Right now, I'm liking what I'm hearing from the Vertavo Quartet on You Tube, and the LAWO label offers audiophile sound quality:


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## Merl

There's also a Copenhagen Quartet recording from the LP era that I missed.

Ive gone back to a few of my recordings already. The *Fitzwilliams* account is a classic of the analogue era and is a fiery and closely miked affair that still sounds great. The *Emersons* are technically superb and the first movement and adagio are beautifully captured. If I have one criticism of their account its that they don't have the fire of the Fitzwilliams (not something you'd expect to hear about the Emersons) but this is a fine performance. The *Engegard* are superb in their stunning recording. They have just the right amount of oomph, accompanied by lovely delicate playing in slow movements and this is on the same disc as their top of the shop recording of Grieg SQ that I gave a glowing review to. This really is a belter of a disc and with audiophile sound.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> There's also a Copenhagen Quartet recording from the LP era that I missed.


You have now lost all credibility.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> There's also a Copenhagen Quartet recording from the LP era that I missed.


It's actually been released as CD as well by Classico in 2004 along with Copenhagen Quartet's recordings of some other Scandinavian SQs but it doesn't seem to be readily available either. There're a few other obscure LP recordings as well (Borodin, Pascal, Claremont) but I doubt they can be found online.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Sweet. I love this one. Good pick.


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## Iota

sbmonty said:


> I would like to wish my very best to Shosty. I am happy to hear they are recovering.


+1



sbmonty said:


> .. despite it's relative popularity, I haven't explored it much at all ..


Me too, despite knowing and loving the symphonies and tone poems, so this is a perfect opportunity to put that right.

Have just listened to the Fitzwilliam recording. There's something so unique about the way Sibelius constructs pieces, the way musical ideas follow and interact with eachother, that's so distinctive and idiosyncratic, so although I'm not that familiar with this quartet, the 'speech patterns' are like those of an old friend and I felt immediately engaged.

I enjoyed it very much, and will be listening again. I got the vague impression that it may be a quartet that is particularly sensitive to interpretation, so will try another version next time.

Very much looking forward it. Excellent choice!


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## Merl

Just listened to another couple tonight. The *Voces Intimae Quartet* on BIS play well, but they're not helped by a rather odd soundstage, probably caused by an over-reverberant acoustic. This is a well-played affair but not competitive with those already mentioned. For all the positives of the *Guarneri* performance I struggle with the intonation issues (especially in the first movement). Otherwise there's plenty to admire, particularly in the fire of their last movement, and it's still a very enjoyable if flawed recording.


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## Merl

Managed 3 performances today (one on way to work, one on way home, one when I got home). First up were the Finnish *Tempera* Quartet and what a fine one this was. They play quite beautifully and yet are brisk and vigorous enough when called upon. In terrific BIS sound this one is a keeper. The *Juilliards*, on the other hand, on Sony, are captured in a close, dry acoustic that does not flatter. Apart from this, they underplay the hauntingly gorgeous adagio and dont find enough bite in the final movement. Disappointing. The last one came outta the blue and is from fairly unknown Aussies, the *Flinders* Quartet, and what a pleasant surprise. In slow movements (especially the Adagio) the Flinders excel with gorgeous tone supported by a lovely acoustic. Things get even better with a brisk, exciting finish. What a lovely surprise and breath of fresh air! Excellent!

Edit: I've also just finished the *Tetzlaff* Quartet recording and that's another barnstormer. The Avi sound is full, clear and spot-on, the playing (apart from two miniscule bits of off-ensemble in movements 2 and 4) is fierce, exciting, tenderly sensual and a joy. The Tetzlaff's win the prize for best final movement Allegro up to now, too. Its an absolute pleasure hearing music played with as much joy and conviction as this and the final 2 minutes are a wild, edge-of-the-seat dance. Very, very impressive.


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## thejewk

Had a quick listen to the Emerson today, and currently listening to the recording by the Nordic String Quartet, which is beautifully played. I know no Sibelius at all until hearing this piece, but I certainly will listen to more.

The standout moments for me so far are the sections in the third movement played in a round. Really lovely.


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## Merl

Another 4 Sibelius accounts today and it was the turn of the *Dante* quartet to impress first and they didn't let me down. The Dantes are rugged and firm, particularly in those chordal moments. This is a weighty recording with plenty of heft and a very fine one too. The Swedish quartet, the *Sophisticated Ladies*, were next and again this was enjoyable but I would have liked a bit more power in the final movement, like the Fitzwilliams supplied. Still a fine performance and, as usual, the sound from BIS is excellent. Things got even better with the *Oslo Quartet*'s terrific version on CPO. This was an utter joy. The recording might be a tad dry but the performance certainly isn't and the rhythmic flow the quartet produce is a major plus for me. It gripped me from start to finish. Stunning. The only one I've played today that sadly left me scratching my head was the *Ehnes* Quartet's very solemn and dry account. I was really looking forward to this one as it had been recommended to me but I really couldn't get into it at all, finding it lacking in emotion. I know it's had good reviews but it didn't hit my sweet spot. Others may think differently. That's all for now. Next up Vertavo and a few more that come highly recommended.

Edit; I just had enough time to have a crack at the *Griller* Quartet's classic account from 1951. The sound is full and in-your-face on this mono recording and although I'd never heard this one before I will certainly be returning to it. There's a feeling that the Grillers are holding back throughout this performance (not in a bad way) but when they hit the final Allegro the brakes come off and they provide a thrilling finale. Thoroughly enjoyable and I can understand why this one is so well thought of.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post but I got in 4 today (due to waking up at 5am for some unknown reason and not being able to get back to sleep). Anyway, try as they might the *Melos* Quartet definitely kept me awake with their 'nervy' playing that I found very enjoyable and they have ample weight too. The only dealbreaker here is a quite small soundstage which doesn't give the quartet enough width and room to breathe and gives a very compact sound. Still decent, though, and much better than the rather dull *Kamus* Quartet who I actually found myself skipping thru a little hoping for something to grab me but it never did. The *Vertavo* recording was very good and technically excellent but there's just not enough buoyancy or bounce, particularly in the final movement. Today's listening (unlike yesterday's) ended in a bit more disappointment with the *Budapest* Quartet's mid 50s recording. I really couldn't get past the very boxy and scratchy sound here. The performance is good ( but nothing special) but in comparison to the similarly aged Grillers who play with far more joy and vivacity and are captured in far more pleasing sound, its a non-starter . So a bit of a poor listening experience today. I'm hoping for better tomorrow.


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## Merl

Had my time outta class today some time to catch up a bit more. Hence I worked my way through a number today and thankfully it was a lot more pleasurable than yesterday. To kick things off the *New Helsinki* quartet play through a fine Sibelius quartet. I really couldn't find anything in the least detrimental in this recording - the sound was excellent, playing agile and involved. The *Gabrielis* were broader and maybe not as immediate but their tone is ravishing and I really dug this one. I doubt if I've heard anyone play the first movement as convincing as that! With playing of such quality it's hard not to be enthralled and the acceptably reverberant acoustic actually added to this performance. Next up were the *Coull* quartet and whilst this was a perfectly decent run-through it lacked the character of the previous two recordings from today and particularly the beauty of the Gabrielis. This afternoon I tried the American *Skyros* quartet and this is a strange one. The performance is damn good, I mean really good, but the sound is quite cavernous at low volume, especially in slow movements . Yet crank it up and it sounds much better. This is one you'll have to listen to, to see if you like the sound. For me it detracted a little from the performance. If you do like the acoustic this could be for you as the performance is terrific. Another string quartet I've heard little by, the Swedish *Fresk* quartet, were my next port of call. Again, this was a very fine account. Nice, immediate, closely-miked performance and bags of enthusiasm. Yes there were a few little bits of scrappy ensemble but the recording was so persuasive I actually forgot about them. It's paired with a very impressive version of Sallinen's 3rd Quartet too. Todays final recording is from the Henschel quartet but you'll have to wait for that. I'm having something to eat.

Edit: just finished listening to another exemplary recording from the *Henschel* quartet and its a belter. The Henshels empty the emotional water-well during the big central movement and are equally compelling elsewhere. This is one I'm going to have to purchase (I've just been sampling the rest of the disc - Janacek and Schulhoff - and that's just as impressive). What a great way to finish today's excellent listening.


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## Iota

Having previously listened to the Fitzwilliam Quartet, I've now moved on to the Engegard Quartet, whose performance is rather more youthful sounding than Fitzwilliam perhaps. They also seem to treat the music more like a beautiful framed picture, than as an emotionally ambiguous entity, the latter which I felt more of in Fitzwilliam's reading. 
It's a question of degree rather than black or white, of course, but personally I found the Fitzwilliam the more penetrating, searching performance of the two.

The character of the piece rather defies pinning down for me, it seems more question marks than statements. Though that is it's character I suppose. This may of course change with further listenings, but anyway am really enjoying it so far and very glad it was picked.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Listening to the Emerson. Lovely work. I got this album when we did the Grieg SQ and this is my second time listening.
I think my favorite part is the Allegro. I'm a sucker for a strong finish.

There are composers I prefer to Sibelius, but his music has been easy for me to appreciate. I've been enjoying my journey in getting to know his work. Great pick this week.


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## Merl

4 more Sibelius today and that's it. I can only listen to so many (plus there were none left that I had access to). So first this morning it was the *Jean Sibelius Quartet*. Apart from a slightly toppy, reverberant sound this was a really good account and the finale is lightning quick (one of the few that clocks in under 5 minutes). Great ensemble playing and very impressive. After that I tried the *Daedalus* quartet. Another excellent performance, beautifully recorded and perfectly executed. I really couldn't fault this one. The *Escher* Quartet's live recording is fiery and brusque. It may have lacked a little subtlety at times and there was the odd dodgy chord but it was live and what it lacks in these departments it makes up for in gusto. Another enjoyable and refreshing take on this quartet. The final recording was the *Leipziger Quartet.* If you like this quartet played with a little more darkness then this is the one for you. Tremendous playing and the slow movements are particularly melancholy. Recording quality is excellent and the Leipzigers are evidently very comfortable in this repertoire. Top account.
Edit: as a fifth performance I listened to the* Sibelius Academy* just now and that's also a highly persuasive account. Gorgeous playing and really nice sound.

So that's it. I'll round up my thoughts either later or tomorrow. Gotta say this was just as tough as the Shosty 8 as the quality was very high. I expect there may be a high number of recommended performances looking at my grades on paper. Apologies for hogging the thread so much this week but that was a lot of recordings to get through. Thanks for putting up with my ramblings.


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## Merl

Couldn't wait till tomorrow so here's my thoughts on the Sibelius SQ recordings I've listened to this week. Again, there was little between the recommended recordings and the top recommendations and this is merely a personal perspective and I'm sure others will feel differently.

*Recommended* 
Dante
Tempera
New Helsinki
Jean Sibelius 
Daedalus
Melos
Fresk
Sibelius Academy
Griller 
Emerson 
Skyros
Escher

*Superb*
Engegard 
Oslo
Gabrieli
Flinders
Henschel
Fitzwilliam

*Top two choices*
These two stood out for opposing reasons. The *Leipziger* account is darker and richer than most and was coherently and beautifully performed and recorded. Everything about this one just felt right and the playing is stunning. The *Tetzlaff* is as full-blooded but it's just so brilliantly recorded and the quartet are so idiomatic, precise, individually terrific and so bloody exciting it had to be there. I loved both equally but they were very different readings. The Gabrielis were a close 3rd just because their playing was utterly divine but all of the ones I've recommended I'd gladly be happy to own (and do with a fair few of them). These two are now essential purchases (I've already got the Tetzlaff). Remember these are just my views at the moment. They could well change. Apologies again for the high number of posts.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Sibelius always has this way of making his music sound so wide-open, expansive, always expanding with no limitations, like an endless mosaic of possibilities or a sweeping mountain vista. The organically unfolding of the arguments are so inexorable. His principles of symphonic compositions are all over this quartet, and though I still prefer the symphonies for their use of orchestration in conveying his precepts this is still an amazing work. I don’t have time to compare recordings for this exercise any more but this was a great pick.


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## Merl

The Sibelius is a SQ I've enjoyed since I first heard it. What I like about it is the contrast between movements and its quite different, moody atmosphere. That plaintive theme on the violin is a lovely as an intro and the conversation it strikes up with the cello is always enjoyable. I also rather enjoy those chunky double-stopped chords. The only part of this quartet I've never much cared for is the 2nd movement scherzo which scurries along but doesn't really have the invention of the rest of other movements for me. It's not a bad movement but I think a stronger theme would have worked better here (and pizzicato, naturally). The emotional centre of the quartet is undoubtedly its 3rd movement Adagio. Whilst being much the longest movement, rhythms are slightly unsteady and yet it flows through the use of rubato and inventive interplay between instruments. Thematically, as I said at the beginning, each movement is highly individual. The following Allegretto (ma pesante) brings back the scurrying of the 2nd movement scherzo but its thematically far more engaging and ushers in that killer final movement, bouncing with dance rhythms. For me, the key to getting this quartet right is tenderness of tone and a dark sadness in the middle movement and creating a 'bounce' with dance rhythms in that finale. That was why the Gabrielis (for example) slipped down my recommendation list from the very top. Their central Allegro was achingly beautiful but they just don't imbue the finale with enough vivacity. Here, at the end of the SQ is a movement that Sibelius demanded "fiercely accented music of forceful contrasts but irresistible momentum". Its unashamedly my favourite section (and one of my fave SQ movements in any SQ) and the accounts that nailed this often nailed the other movements (Fitzwilliam, Griller, Oslo, Skyros, etc). What a good pick this week.


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## Malx

Sticking with my policy of only listening to the recordings I have in my collection for fear of having to part with an increasingly limited resource - cash.
I have spent time this week with the New Helsinki & Dante Quartets - both to me make a good case for this quartet in which I believe it is crucial to get the adagio central movement and the final allegro right to succeed. There is not a huge difference in the standards that I can discern but if pushed I'd probably plump for the Dante - down to a fuller sound.
I am tempted to try a couple of others as this weeks exposure has reminded me that this is a fine quartet.


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## sbmonty

Thanks to Merl for some excellent posts. A very impressive list of recordings. 
I have come to really enjoy this quartet. Like Merl, there are so many great recordings that I had a difficult time discerning my preferences. I definitely agree that the Tetzlaff recording is something special. The Henschel also sounded just right to my ears. The Gabrieli initially sounded a little too reverberant to me, but on repeated listening, this no longer bothered me. It's coupled with the Piano Quintet as well. I haven't listened to that work yet, but will later this weekend. I also plan to track down the Leipziger recording, as it sounds very interesting. 
The third movement adagio is definitely a remarkably beautiful movement, but I also love the "swirling wind" motif (my description) so prevalent in the fourth movement. I noticed this same theme in the third symphony as well. I listened to both the third and fourth symphonies alongside the quartet this week, for context.


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## Simplicissimus

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sibelius always has this way of making his music sound so wide-open, expansive, always expanding with no limitations, like an endless mosaic of possibilities or a sweeping mountain vista. The organically unfolding of the arguments are so inexorable. His principles of symphonic compositions are all over this quartet, and though I still prefer the symphonies for their use of orchestration in conveying his precepts this is still an amazing work. I don't have time to compare recordings for this exercise any more but this was a great pick.


These comments really resonate with me. About a week before starting on this SQ I happened to be listening to a couple of Sibelius symphonies, and when I experienced the SQ it hit me so strongly as expressing with small forces the sound world I experience in the symphonies; and it is a fascinating experience. I don't know why, but the SQ-symphony relationship isn't the same to me with Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Shostakovich, and other composers who worked extensively in the two forms. Maybe it's that "inexorably unfolding" quality that is so characteristic of Sibelius.


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## annaw

Huge thanks, Merl, for another set of great reviews! I'm currently listening to the Leipzigers whose playing I've adored since I listened to their Beethoven SQ recordings. I'm really enjoying their account of the Sibelius as well.

I think the choice was very well-timed for me. I don't know, maybe it's because it's getting darker and colder here but I've recently been yearning for the sweeping melodies and flow of the late Romantics and the early 20th century composers. I cannot understand how Sibelius did this but Voces intimae is written so that it feels very huge. Like a symphony for four instruments.

I think one of the great qualities of the quartet is the same which Merl already pointed out - the contrast between movements. This makes the whole work structurally comprehensible and makes all the individual movements stand out. I, personally, also like the second movement, particularly the middle part of the movement where you get some joyful handling of melodies which brings to mind Sibelius' earlier works. The third movement is exactly the sort of slow movement which I enjoy - it's so intense that it doesn't even really feel slow anymore and Sibelius shows off his skills as a narrator. The slow movement seems to "speak" and tell a story to the listener. The last movement is simply... crazy but, oh, so good! It's definitely my favourite one because it's so larger-than-life.

A great pick! The half of me which is Finnish is feeling proud at the moment :lol:.


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## Josquin13

I briefly sampled a few recordings this week. My main issue was with groups that approached the opening movement lightly and quickly. I see this music as more solemn at the beginning; which meant that I didn't listen further to a number of the recordings, such as the performance by the Melos Quartett. I thought the Vertavo Quartet played the opening well: 



 (as did the Smetana Quartet), but agree with Merl that they may have lacked a certain "buoyancy" later on. For me, their adagio was beautifully played but quite romantic in places, & maybe occasionally a tad too sweet: 



. But I don't know if that was the Vertavo's choice, or Sibelius's? It may be what Sibelius wanted for this movement. (Despite that his symphonies never sound overly romantic to me, especially in performances by the harder, more detail oriented Finnish conductors, such as Paavo Berglund.) I'll have to listen to other "Voces Intimae" recordings in order to get alternative views.

Unfortunately, the Tempera and Sibelius Academy Quartet recordings weren't on You Tube, and I don't own them in my collection. In addition, I'm now eager to look into some of Merl's favorite recordings for the week, but so far haven't had a chance to do so. Thanks for your posts, Merl.

I found the following passage from Rob Barnet's review of the Tempura Quartet's recording to be of interest:

"The Voces Intimae quartet was largely written in London where he was fêted by his British circle, Rosa Newmarch, Granville Bantock and Henry Wood. He was anxious and no doubt poor company but there was a reason. This was the time (1909) of his recuperation from the removal of the throat tumour in 1908. In Voces Intimae we catch the earliest intimations of the dark side of his symphonism - to be heard at its masterful apex in the Fourth Symphony of 1911. In fact Voces Intimae, which is in five movements, is far less 'forbidding' than the symphony with its romantic crepuscular half-lights. The bustle and breathless flitter of the second movement precedes the long and questioning yet consolatory quasi-Mahlerian Adagio di Molto. The deliberately paced and emphatic Allegretto then stands aside for the buzzing and skittering Allegro which reminds one all the time of the Lemminkainen Return."

Portamento will be picking our quartet for this coming week. Last week, he told me that he was willing to do so. So, I'm expecting he'll pop in either today or tomorrow with the new selection.

Thanks for the Sibelius pick!


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## Malx

I have just found another recording of the Sibelius in my collection!

It was lurking in the Decca 'Sibelius Great Performances' box - The Griller Quartet's recording from 1951.
Put the sound to one side, and thats not too bad for the age of the recording with a decent remastering, and this is a pretty impressive performance. The string sound is a little brittle at times but they certainly know their way around the piece building to a excellent finale. An excellent 'historical' selection to set beside those in modern sound.


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## Portamento

My pick for this week is...

*Xenakis: Tetras* (1983)






This is an amazing piece of music. I think _Tetras_ is one of the best string quartets from the last century that everyone should get to know. Tetras means "four," and fittingly the four instruments involved often operate as a single texture. This is classic Xenakis: in your face, uncompromising as hell, yet oddly compelling. The rapidly oscillating glissandi in the beginning are already a sonic assault on the senses, but then we arrive at an extended passage consisting of bizarre grinding and creaking noises. The glissandi eventually return with a vengeance and morph into a scalar passage that resembles the modal music from Xenakis' homeland. Finally, the work ends with whispering sul ponticello (you guessed it!) glissandi. _Tetras_ often seems like a series of sharply contrasting sections (and to an extent that's what it is) but the whole is so much more than the sum of its parts. This is music that demands to be heard; I hope that you can get something out of it.

As far as I know there have only been four (or should I say tetras?) recordings:

Arditti (1989)
Arditti (1992)
Jack (2009)
Danel (2010)
Jack (2017)

EDIT: _Mandryka found another one, so now my bad joke doesn't work anymore..._

My personal favorite is the Jack Quartet 2009 on Mode. In my opinion they bring a greater intensity and variety of attack than the Ardittis. 2017 is a live recording at Wigmore Hall.

Enjoy!


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## Rangstrom

I listened twice to the Claremont String Quartet on Nonesuch LP (long OP). I found their Sibelius to be lively and flowing. The sound was decent for early stereo, but the 1st violin tended to be a bit too lean in the initial two movements. That would be the Amati that was stolen but recovered undamaged five years later. I appreciate the spur to re-listen to this quartet, but ultimately I am still not a fan. I am a big fan of Sibelius' orchestral works, yet the rest of his body of work leaves me cold. I have added the Emerson version to my (extensive) want list to see if a different approach makes much of a difference.

The Nonesuch liner notes were written by none other than Bernard Jacobsen and he posits that Sibelius' standard orchestral compositional technique (long pedal points stressing vertical thematic combinations) would not translate well to the quartet medium. Supposedly he turned to the unusual approach of employing long stretches in octave unison for two or more instruments. Interesting. I also thought I heard some foreshadowing of Bartok's insect/night music. 

This is my only recording of the Claremont Quartet. I did recognize two member's names: Marc Gottlieb for the stolen violin story(and his long teaching career) and Scott Nickrenz (husband of Joanna--the record producer--and later a member of the Vermeer SQ). 

Finally, I have the 2008 (recording date) Jack Xenakis. I look forward to giving a spin a couple of times this week. Two or three might be my outer limit. I can't fathom listening to the same quartet 10 or more times in a week. That is more dedication than I have.


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## Simplicissimus

I have the Jack Quartet's 2009 recording of Xenakis's _Tetras_ on streaming, luckily. Starting to listen to it (it's only 17 min 27 sec long) and I agree that it's oddly compelling. I think I'll have a lot of fun as well as some deep thoughts with this! The Jacks are great. Remember some of us listened to and watched their performance of a Carter SQ on YT?


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## Portamento

Rangstrom said:


> Finally, I have the 2008 (recording date) Jack Xenakis. I look forward to giving a spin a couple of times this week. Two or three might be my outer limit. *I can't fathom listening to the same quartet 10 or more times in a week.* That is more dedication than I have.


Me neither. _Tetras_ is too potent for that, anyways. (Or maybe I'm wrong.)


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## Mandryka

Portamento said:


> As far as I know there have only been four (or should I say tetras?) recordings:
> 
> Arditti (1989)
> Arditti (1992)
> Jack (2009)
> Jack (2017)!


There is also this commercial concert recording from The Danel Quartet









I also have a recording of Arditti doing it in concert in 2017


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## Portamento

Mandryka said:


> There is also this commercial concert recording from The Danel Quartet
> 
> View attachment 143667
> 
> 
> I also have a recording of Arditti doing it in concert in 2017


Thanks! I've updated my little list.


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## calvinpv

I agree with Portamento. The JACK recording on the Mode label is the best, though having now re-listened to the Arditti above, I think I like their tempo better in the scalar passages. 

But seriously, the JACK quartet is like a well-oiled machine; the level of precision they achieve is downright scary, and their extended techniques have a rather tactile quality to them, even more than what you hear in the Arditti (e.g. when I hear their glissandi, I get the image of a rubber band stretching and contracting or when they play on the side of the instrument, I feel like I'm hearing a loose bolt getting tightened). I know it's not on youtube, but for those of you who have a streaming service, go check it out.


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## starthrower

I've fallen of the cart, lads! I got on a jazz kick for a month. Anyway, I'm back listening to Sibelius tone poems and I'm going to listen to the quartet in my BIS box. It's by the Tempera Quartet. I just checked and I don't have the Xenakis. I'll definitely give the YT upload a listen, thanks!


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## Knorf

Looking forward to revisiting some Xenakis. I heard Arditti perform this live, and I've always had an affinity with how they do things, but the JACK Quartet are always very impressive, so I'll need to seek theirs out as well.


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## starthrower

Tetras: Recorded at The Rotunda in Philadelphia, PA on March 9, 2014.


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## starthrower

I'm loving this BIS recording of Voces intimae by Tempera. What a great sound they've captured in the studio. I'm on my second run through. A great balance of just the right amount of dissonance with some wonderful melody writing and dialogue among the four voices. A wonderful quartet from the great man of the north!

The Xenakis is not really to my taste and doesn't speak to me too deeply as a musical work. But it's a good bit of fun to listen to. I could have guessed this was one of his pieces being fairly familiar with his techniques and style. I would have never guessed the author of the Sibelius work. But I'm glad to be introduced to it through this thread.


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## newyorkconversation

I have been off TC so never saw this thread before - what a wonderful idea.

By coincidence I listened to the Emersons' rendition of "Voces Intimae" just this weekend... on to Xenakis!


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## Merl

A week off for me as I tried Xenakis but it didn't register with me. Maybe in a few years but just not now. Interesting listen though.


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## Rangstrom

I listened to the JACK Quartet 2008 recording on Mode four times. It was a rocky start since the label on the cd puts Tetras as the first track with a timing of 13:41 and lists Tetora as track 2 at 17:33, but in fact track 1 lasts 17:33. I assumed that the timings were switched but how was I to know? This is the only music of Xenakis I've ever heard. 

Luckily the description of the piece by Portamento and in the liner notes (which were way too fanboy for my taste) convinced me that track 1 was the real deal. I've listened to this cd a number of times in the last decade so the shock and awe element was long gone. In its place were sounds that were lively and unique. It is amazing that you can make acoustic instruments sound like electronics at times and Xenakis may have been the originator of many new string playing techniques, but I had the same reaction after the fourth listen as the first: a kind of bemused shrug and a hope that none of the string instruments suffered any long term damage.

Hard to say anything about the performance. Maybe having the score would help. Maybe not, given my rudimentary score reading skills. How does one judge, for example, the efficacy of notes that sound (to steal Loudon Wainwright's quip about his singing) like geese farts on a muggy day? Still I'm glad to have heard the piece and I admire the inventiveness.

As a side note, does this type of work lend it self to alternative interpretations? Once you have a quartet with the patience and chops to learn and record the work is there any reason to seek out another?


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## Portamento

Rangstrom said:


> Luckily the description of the piece by Portamento and in the liner notes (which were way too fanboy for my taste) convinced me that track 1 was the real deal. I've listened to this cd a number of times in the last decade so the shock and awe element was long gone. In its place were sounds that were lively and unique. It is amazing that you can make acoustic instruments sound like electronics at times and Xenakis may have been the originator of many new string playing techniques, but I had the same reaction after the fourth listen as the first: a kind of bemused shrug and a hope that none of the string instruments suffered any long term damage.
> 
> Hard to say anything about the performance. Maybe having the score would help. Maybe not, given my rudimentary score reading skills. How does one judge, for example, the efficacy of notes that sound (to steal Loudon Wainwright's quip about his singing) like geese farts on a muggy day? Still I'm glad to have heard the piece and I admire the inventiveness.
> 
> As a side note, does this type of work lend it self to alternative interpretations? Once you have a quartet with the patience and chops to learn and record the work is there any reason to seek out another?


One thing I like about Xenakis (when compared to some of his contemporaries) is that he doesn't use extended techniques for the sake of it. They all serve a musical purpose, no matter how craggy or violent. I do think there's enough freedom here to allow for alternative interpretations-everyone attacks the side of their instrument in a different way!

The efficacy of geese farts on a muggy day? This is Xenakis, so I'd say the "smellier" the better...


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## Mandryka

This is Harry Halbreich’s dissection of the quartet into sections - it might help when thinking about the form of Tetras.

I glissandi
II unpitched noises
III glissandi
IV discrete pitches mixed contours
V discrete pitches scale passages
VI discrete pitches sustained notes
VII discrete pitches mixed contours
VIII discrete pitches mixed contours/sustained notes 
IX glissandi


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## Portamento

Mandryka said:


> This is Harry Halbreich's dissection of the quartet into sections - it might help when thinking about the form of Tetras.
> 
> I glissandi
> II unpitched noises
> III glissandi
> IV discrete pitches mixed contours
> V discrete pitches scale passages
> VI discrete pitches sustained notes
> VII discrete pitches mixed contours
> VIII discrete pitches mixed contours/sustained notes
> IX glissandi


That's super helpful. Thanks for sharing!


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## thejewk

Had a few listens to the Arditti Quartet recording of Tetras from youtube posted on the previous page, and I'm in two minds about it. I very much enjoy music which deals more in shapes and events than in harmony, but here I felt like the limit of only four voices of a quartet actually limits the piece. Possibly my affinity for Ligeti is making me approach the piece in the wrong way, but I felt while listening that the transparency of the rapid glissandi, for example, just didn't hold my attention for long enough, and I found myself waiting for the next part to start instead of enjoying what was happening. I keep waiting for a greater form to take shape, and for me it never does. I'd appreciate any comments in response to this.

This was my first time hearing Xenakis, and it won't be my last. I think I want to hear some pieces with larger ensembles though, before I make up my mind.


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## Mandryka

thejewk said:


> I'd appreciate any comments in response to this.


I thought that you may enjoy his last quartets more, Ergma.


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## thejewk

Mandryka said:


> I thought that you may enjoy his last quartets more, Ergma.


I'll give it a try, thanks.


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## Iota

I've listened three times to the Jack Quartet recording of Tetras and there are quite a few passages in it, that as standalone sonic objets d'art I find very striking/stimulating to listening to. But the sum of the parts doesn't quite add up to anything more for me, perhaps even has a diluting effect. 

I'm nonetheless very glad to hear it, with its expressive features and bold exploration of remote territory, it has many intriguing features, but it doesn't quite ultimately go anywhere for me, yet at least. 
One other thing I was going to say was that the judicious and effective use of extended techniques in it was a plus, sometimes they seem overused, so agree very much with Portamento's point on this above.

Really interesting choice though! :cheers:


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## SanAntone

I didn't understand the purpose of this thread and posted a string quartet I thought was worth hearing. Now that I've read the OP, I understand my mistake.


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## Portamento

Mandryka said:


> I thought that you may enjoy his last quartets more, Ergma.


+1

_Ergma_ is extremely dense throughout and has no glissandi. There's an almost ritualistic feel to it. I can't say that I like this one as much as _Tetras_, but it's very effective.


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## newyorkconversation

My appreciation of Tetras, while not profound, is somewhat deeper after watching this video of JACK's live performance: 




The video for me highlights the technical innovation behind the novel timbres in the piece... the novelty and technique being perhaps more interesting than the timbres themselves in some cases


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## Simplicissimus

newyorkconversation said:


> My appreciation of Tetras, while not profound, is somewhat deeper after watching this video of JACK's live performance:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The video for me highlights the technical innovation behind the novel timbres in the piece... the novelty and technique being perhaps more interesting than the timbres themselves in some cases


Yes, I got a lot out of the video of the Jacks' performance of Tetras, but it wasn't as crucial to my appreciation of the piece as the video of their performance of Carter's SQ No. 3 was. There, the visual record of the performance showed the interaction among the players that is for me the most interesting part of the piece. With Tetras, it is interesting to see the techniques that produce the unconventional sounds, but i could substantially appreciate the timbres and time-courses of the sounds even with audio alone. I really enjoy the heck out of attending live performances of this kind of music.


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## Mandryka

Portamento said:


> +1
> 
> _Ergma_ is extremely dense throughout and has no glissandi. There's an almost ritualistic feel to it. I can't say that I like this one as much as _Tetras_, but it's very effective.


It's brutal! There's a lot of music like that from the last phase of Xenakis's composing life.


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## Malx

This week I really wanted to try and get a grip on this piece - I listened twice to the Jack recording but I wasn't in the zone for getting new to me modern works. It would be wrong of me to try and pass comment on the piece in the circumstances but I will hopefully return to it when in a more receptive frame of mind.
I do find above many composers I do have to be in the right mood for Xenakis, maybe I'm not quite ready for a lot of his compositions, even though I do have a number of discs of his music.


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## Merl

I believe its my turn to pick a SQ this week so I'm going for an early 20th century piece.

*Darius Milhaud* [1892-1974] was a prolific composer of string quartets, composing 18 of them (interestingly Nos. 14 & 15 can be played together as an octet).

*String Quartet No. 1* was composed when he was 20 and was dedicated to the painter Paul Cezanne. The work consists of the traditional four movements. The outer movements (1 & 4) are rhythmically up-tempo. The inner movements are slow, with long melodies. There's hints of Debussy, Ravel and Faure in this work and equally (for me) Vaughan Williams.

(From elsewhere)
- first movement, Rythmique, opens with a lively, forthright and brisk theme, occasionally letting up for more lyrical phrases. There's a reference to the opening of the Debussy quartet. A central episode in a slower tempo evolves expanding on motifs from the basic themes then a three-beat march gives way to a waltzlike return to the opening theme.
- second movement, Lyrical and graceful, on muted strings, continues the Debussy mood in a supple style (so often French music, and Milhaud especially, seems to evoke the outdoors).
- original third movement, Grave - is not always recorded: in the revised corrected edition of his quartets Milhaud let it stand, but specified that it was there only "pour mémoire,".
- finale, Vif, très rythmé, begins repetitively, but again in a central section, gives way to a more reflective, graceful voice.

Later in his life Milhaud edited the work and discarded the third movement and some recordings reflect this change but I'd urge you to listen to the the 4 movement original (that's a personal preference for me but I'd be interested to hear what you think - should it be 3 or 4 movements?).

There are a number of worthwhile performances. The *Quator Parisii* have recorded all 18 quartets on the Naive label, on five CDs, but they omit the third movement on this one. Otherwise there's the *Arriaga*, *Galatea* (Belle Epoque), *Fanny Mendelssohn*, *Petersen*, *WXQR* and now out-of-print *Arcana* quartets to choose from in this recording so not too many (if you know of any more please flag them).

The Complete Quator Parisii set of the 18 quartets is available on Spotify and various versions of the work are on Spotify and YouTube (see links below). I have a personal favourite amongst the recordings I have (Parisii, Petersen, Galatea) but I'm looking forward to re-sampling these and listening to some of the others out there so I'm not going to say what I think yet.

A downloadable copy of the score is available below.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/544969/tofpg

Quatuor Parisii (3 movements)





Petersen (original 4 movements)


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## starthrower

Nice pick, Merl! Quite an impressive work for the 20 year old Milhaud. The rich harmonies in the first movement made it sound like more than four voices in certain passages. I've listened just once so far but I think it's a beautiful work. And I'm a fan of the Petersen's. I listen to their Krenek quartet CDs on Capriccio. I'll give this one a couple more listens by some of the other quartet ensembles.


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## Simplicissimus

Milhaud SQ No. 1, very interesting pick! Looking forward to it. I found two recordings on my streaming service, the Petersen Quartet and the Arriaga String Quartet. I started listening to Milhaud about 10 years ago, but his SQ oeuvre is as of now unknown to me. Great to start with No. 1!


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## sbmonty

Tetras by Xenakis was my first exposure to this composer. Thanks for the choice. The extended technique was fascinating to watch. Visualizing the musicians rather than just audio helped me understand this challenging work just a little better.

Milhaud is another new experience for me. So much music! Listening to the Peterson Quartett now.


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## Merl

Listening through the 3 recordings I have, today, its remarkable how different the accounts are yet I enjoy all of them for different reasons. The *Galateas* are fine and play with great warmth but maybe not enough fire. The *Petersens* are very quick in this SQ, perhaps a little too quick in the first and final movement but their playing is superb and their fiery interpretation is captured in a rich, lively acoustic that suits the music really well. The *Parisii* Quartet are somewhere in between and obviously have Milhaud in their blood. Again, this is an excellent account. I'm looking forward to sampling some others on Spotify tomorrow.

The Milhaud string quartets are very different and cover a wide variety of styles. 1&2 are his most conventional and are more debussy-like, skillfully written, quartets. 3&4 are different again. SQ3 is quite a grim work with additional soprano voice (it's not one of my faves, I'll be honest). SQ 4 is more mature milhaud, still with lively outer movements and slow inner movement. SQs 5-7 are different again. #5 is firmly in Schoenberg teritory featured strong rhythms and bi-tonality. #6 sounds like something Poulenc or Roussel could have written whilst #7 is one of Milhaud's finest SQs (and was my second choice for this week). The second half of his quartets share a sound world close to Hindemith and Villa-Lobos quartets, for me.  #12 is a particular favourite of these but the later quartets are all very pleasant, although some are better in quality than others. There's some great pizzicato writing on SQ9. SQs 14 & 15 (as I said earlier) are inventive and can be played together as a octet.

If you get off on this first quartet then try 4, 7 and 12. You might find something you really like in Milhaud.


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## thejewk

You've got me anticipating my first listen tomorrow Merl. I don't know him at all, but your descriptions sounds intriguing.


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## annaw

I really love its youthful virtuosity of Milhaud's 1st quartet. I think the first movement is a beautiful combination of French late Romantic thoughtfulness and flow during the passages movements. I find the faster passages to be highly individual, vital and uplifting with a tinge of Debyssian mannerism here and there. There's an atmosphere of utter freedom about the quick passages which is delightful.

The second movement is worthy of its name. What strikes me extremely interesting and fascinating is the innocence and content serenity of the second movement and the more troubled, passionate slowness of the third. I tend to be the Presto and Scherzo type of person but I find myself really appreciating what what Milhaud does with the slow movements here. I think the contrast between them is striking enough that I wouldn't like to be without the third movement, especially the climaxing shift passage in the middle of it .

And finally, the final movement brings me quickly back from the semi-philosophical contemplations of the third movement. So, it's serves as a kind of passage back into the daylight.

(I'm listening to the Galatea's recording but I might have liked the Petersen's take of it better. Need to give it another listen, I think.)


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## Merl

I listened to the *Arriaga*'s recording via Spotify earlier and it's quite lovely. Yes they don't skip along as delightfully in the final movement as the Petersens but boy their playing is gorgeous. Excellent recording too. Love the way they take the first 3 movements and the first movement is delightful.


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## Simplicissimus

Merl said:


> I listened to the *Arriaga*'s recording via Spotify earlier and it's quite lovely. Yes they don't skip along as delightfully in the final movement as the Petersens but boy their playing is gorgeous. Excellent recording too. Love the way they take the first 3 movements and the first movement is delightful.


Yes, I like the Arriagas with this piece. Their interpretation is full of sweetness and youthful charm, just right.


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## Rangstrom

As luck would have it, I recently purchased a 3-cd compilation/sampler from Capriccio entitled Forbidden Sounds/Composers in Exile. The Petersen Quartet performance of Milhaud's String Quartet n. 1 is included. In fact, I found the Petersen performance the highlight of the set. Listening to the Milhaud again I'm still very impressed with the performance and the work itself. Quite an achievement for an opus 5.

Also impressive is the recorded sound, especially the cello. Strangely enough the notes for the set fail to list the members of the quartet. Even more strangely while the notes set forth the recording dates for all the other performances, it skips the Milhaud. Given a listed original publication of 2001, I assume the recording was from 2000--the year Henry-David Varema replaced Hans-Jacob Eschenburg as cellist and while the sound overall was very good the second movement seemed, to me, slightly muffled. I wonder if there were different sessions. My only other recording by the Petersen Quartet is a set of Boccherini Quintets also on Capriccio. Time to explore some more.

Depending on how you feel about Onslow (British father/French mother/wrote mostly in a "Germanic Style") Milhaud may be the most prolific French composer of string quartets. I have quartets 3, 4, 9, 12, 14 and 17 on a 2-LP set by Quatour Arcana on Cybelia (which I enjoyed a lot, but I never crossed paths with the rest of the discs) and this Petersen 1. I'd like to fill out the collection. Any suggestions?


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## thejewk

Rangstrom, there are two 10CD sets of Milhaud out at the moment, one of opera and vocal, the other I think all instrumental. The second one has some of the quartets, as well as the octet.

I don't have either, but they are both available for not much money on UK Amazon.


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## Merl

Rangstrom,, there's only the Naive Parisii set that has all the SQs but it's OOP and (as one member here has discovered) is very expensive to acquire. The only other option is streaming it or through digital download. There are individual performances of some quartets available, from other quartets, but some are even rarer than the Parisii set. It's annoying.


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## thejewk

I'm a big fan of this quartet, and I want to listen to more Milhaud in the future for sure.

The first movement's progression from the sweet yet dramatic initial theme, to the more pensive explorations as the movement progresses, is handled beautifully. I really enjoy the Quatour Parisii for this opening, and I like their whole performance but have ended up listening mostly to the Petersen Quartet due to Parisii's omission of a movement. Why did they do this, I wonder?

The second movement is varied and rich, with delicate pizzicato and a lovely final passage with arpeggios in the lower instruments, the third movement dramatic but very harmonically sweet still. I love the chromatic descending figures from around the 4.15 mark of the Petersen version on Spotify, which build into my favourite moment of climax in the piece, and then softly retreat into the pensive mood of the later part of the first movement.

The final movement is a nice summation and is pleasantly brisk.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Until this week I'd never even heard of Milhaud. So my first listen to this SQ was totally blind. Knowing it was Merl's pick I figured it would be something I'd like as he and I seem to have similar tastes at least in what we don't find enjoyable. Listening to Peterson linked in the post I have to say this is a great quartet. 

The opening movement and it's homage to Debussy was beautiful. I loved the way it took Debussy's motif and developed it into something new but while maintaining the style of Debussy's harmonic structure. The second movent kind of reminded me of a film score ala Korngold but more 'impressionistic' than syrupy sweet. Lovely. The longing melody exchanged between the cello and the violin in the third movement sets up the finale beautifully. 

In all I really enjoyed this. Thanks for the great pick Merl.


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## Iota

I really enjoyed the Milhaud, an exuberant and extremely charming piece, and a highly impressive achievement for any twenty-year-old I'd have thought. I love the little iridescences of textures and ideas as the piece gambols forward, and the play between wistfulness and joie de vivre. 

Though I must say I feel I understand why he decided to discard the third movement. Even though I liked it, it didn't seem to quite fit naturally in this setting, the overall momentum felt a bit stalled to me. I'll be skipping it next time to see how it sounds. I heard it with the Petersen quartet this time who seem excellent. 

The quartet has also prompted me to listen to some of the later quartets to see where he went as he developed, something I plan to do in the coming weeks.

Anyway, excellent choice, glad to make its acquaintance!


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Xenakis is certainly a thrill ride! Though it's highly intriguing to listen to this is what I think of as "sonic art" rather than "music," not that I see that as a bad thing. It's not something I would return to but it's good to hear. Parts of it sound like electric guitar jamming!

The Milhaud is also an interesting work. I was initially turned off because the first movement sounded oddly like Arvo Pärt, who is not a composer that I care for, but I really like the middle movements with their Ravelian lushness. The finale I don't think is quite as inspired but is irresistably vital. Milhaud is not a composer who I've devoted hardly any time to and this has reminded me that I need to start diving into his immense ouevre.


----------



## Merl

Finished off my week's Milhaud listening with the *Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet*'s account. Again, there was plenty to enjoy and admire. However, the sound is a bit boxy even if the performance is very good.

So, after a week I've listened to all the ones I could and I'm recommending one of the recordings I already have but with one caveat.

*My pick*
*
The Petersen quartet *play the hell out of this one. It's a really impressive performance, full of vigour, fire and terrific ensemble playing (listen to some of those scurrying runs in the final movement - they're sublime) . However, I do wish they'd held back a little in the first movement. They're just too quick and it slightly detracts from the music, diminishing the beauty of that opening theme (listen to the Arriaga's for how to play this opening movement). However, it's a small grumble and the Petersens are so much more persuasive across the quartet than all the others so my vote goes to them this week. The Parisii Quartet are very good too but they miss that 3rd movement and they are better in other Milhaud quartets for me (especially the mid to late ones). I hope that you've enjoyed the Milhaud. I've certainly enjoyed playing it again after a break.


----------



## Knorf

A wee favor, please: could someone please post a complete list of the quartets that have been selected so far? It seems I'm on deck for next week, and I want to make double sure I don't inadvertently repeat something.


----------



## Malx

Just finished listening to the Petersen & F Mendelssohn Quartets' recordings - I agree with Merl that the Petersen's get under the skin of the piece better than the Mendelssohn's, that is to some degree down to the better recording.
It is a good enough quartet but maybe not distinctive enough for my tastes, nothing wrong with it just with so many others out there I can't see myself playing it frequently.
One that will stay registered on the streaming site but unlikely to be added to the collection.


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## Knorf

I enjoyed the Milhaud. I listened to the Petersen and Parisii recordings, and like Merl overall prefer Petersen. I also can't explain the omission of the original third movement, and I think I would prefer to hear it as well in performances of this quartet. 

The influence of Ravel is very clear, but so is Milhaud's nascent musical personality, bouncier and more whimsical than Ravel.


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## Merl

02/23: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

05/17: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
06/14: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
06/21: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
06/28: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
07/05: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
07/12: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
07/19: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
07/26: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
08/02: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

Second Round

08/09: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
08/16: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 “Dissonance” (Enthusiast) 
08/23: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 “OpenTime” (Mandryka)
08/30: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
09/06: Reger String Quartet 4 (Bwv 1080) 
09/13: Shostakovich String Quartet 8 (adriesba) 
09/20: Sibelius: String Quartet In D Minor, "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
09/26: Xenakis Tetras (Portamento)
10/04: Milhaud String Quartet 1 (Merl)

There ya go, Knorf, that's the updated list. I've even kept your nonsensical American date format. :lol:


----------



## Josquin13

Thanks so much, Merl, I was just about to post the new list, but hadn't quite updated it. Eramire156 is taking a break from the thread in order to listen to other repertory, but plans to return eventually. Which means that Knorf is up next, and he has kindly agreed to pick a quartet for us a week earlier than expected. 

It was a hectic week, and I haven't had a chance to listen to the Milhaud SQ yet. I hope to do so tonight.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> There ya go, Knorf, that's the updated list. I've even kept your nonsensical American date format. :lol:


Doin the Lord's work there cousin...


----------



## Merl

If I get time over the next few weeks I may go back and listen to the first 6 week's SQs as the first one I commented on was the Shosty 4. Btw, I took the end dates outta that list ACB. Didn't think they were needed. Is that OK?


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## sbmonty

Enjoyed listening to Milhaud's No. 1. The Petersen was the account I listened to most. Definitely like the 3rd movement included. Listened to the 4th and the 7th yesterday prior to work. Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet. Very nice too. The 7th reminded me of Shostakovich, especially in the 1st movement. 
Great choice this week. Thanks Merl.


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## newyorkconversation

I have to say I quite enjoyed the Galatea recording. Wish I could find that WQXR quartet recording somewhere online.


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## Knorf

Alrighty, string quartet fans. I have made my choice for my second selection for this thread.

*György Ligeti: String Quartet No. 2* (1968)

This is quite a famous string quartet, for post-1950 quartets, but it's also a big favorite of mine, from one of the late 20th century's greatest and most influential composers. It is dedicated to the LaSalle Quartet, who gave the premiere performance in 1969.

It has five movements, all relatively short:

I. Allegro nervoso
II. Sostenuto, molto calmo
III. Come un meccanismo di precisione
IV. Presto furioso, brutale, tumultuoso
V. Allegro con delicatezza

There are a number of recordings. There is the LaSalle on Deutsche Grammophon, clearly an authoritative performance, but also:

Arditti Quartet (two by them)
Parker String Quartet
Keller Quartett
Artemis Quartet
Quatuor Béla
Kreutzer String Quartet
JACK Quartet

My guess is that they're all highly recommendable; this isn't the sort of repertoire you engage without total commitment. But the three I know are LaSalle and the two by Arditti, whom I also heard perform this live. All are excellent!

Here's a video with the score, by the Arditti Quartet, their second recording on Sony.






And here's a video of a live performance, with the JACK Quartet:






Enjoy!

Incidentally, here's how to pronounce György Ligeti:

György is like English "George" but with the vowel more or less the same as a German o-umlaut. The "y"s soften the letter g and are not pronounced. If you struggle with the ö, "Djerdj" is pretty close.

Ligeti is like it looks but be sure to put the emphasis on the first syllable. LI-ge-ti. (Should not rhyme with spaghetti!)


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## thejewk

Excellent, one of my favourite composers. Looking forward to living with it for the week.


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## Rangstrom

It is always fun to listen to Ligeti. I may not follow every step he takes, but it always feels like there is a solid reason for the choice. I would describe his music as purposeful forward motion, often with a touch of whimsy (although not in the work at hand). I enjoy the journey.

I auditioned the Parker Quartet (r. 2007) cd on Naxos and the Arditti String Quartet (r. 1994) cd on Sony. Both performances were excellent. The Parker performance was slightly warmer and slower; the Arditti was harder edged. The recorded sound supported the interpretative stances: Naxos with more air around the instruments, Sony aggressively in your face. For me the Parker performance of the quartet placed it more in the continuum of 20th century quartets from Bartok through Shostakovich while the Arditti focused more on an outlier/avant garde scale. Both approaches work even if I slightly preferred the Parker.

The only negative (in both recordings) was the sound level. To follow the softer sections you had to set the volume at a level where the initial plunk and other sections were uncomfortable; I mostly listen under headphones which may add to the problem. I have been lucky enough, however, to attend well over 100 chamber music concerts to date, so I know how they should sound and yet I often find myself listening to a quartet recording at a level that would drown out a Wagnerian orchestra in full stride. It is a conundrum.

As is the norm here, another interesting pick.


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## Portamento

Rangstrom said:


> The only negative (in both recordings) was the sound level. To follow the softer sections you had to set the volume at a level where the initial plunk and other sections were uncomfortable; I mostly listen under headphones which may add to the problem. I have been lucky enough, however, to attend well over 100 chamber music concerts to date, so I know how they should sound and yet I often find myself listening to a quartet recording at a level that would drown out a Wagnerian orchestra in full stride. It is a conundrum.


Glad I'm not the only one with this problem! Listening to Ligeti #2 usually entails constant fidgeting with the volume in a fruitless bid to save my ears.

Love the work, though. :tiphat:


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## Merl

I listened and although it wasn't for me your recommendation of his first string quartet, Knorf, was spot on and I'm enjoying its sound world, set in a more conventional structure.


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## Malx

I listened to the Arditti recordings and generally enjoyed them, however recently I haven't really been in the mood for quartet listening so have not been giving the thread my full attention. I am currently finding solice in more familiar areas of the repertoire.
Hopefully I will soon shake off my current state of torpor and get back onside.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Hopefully I will soon shake off my current state of *torpor* and get back onside.


That's a big word for a Friday, Malx. I nearly had to get the dictionary out. :lol:


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## Malx

Merl said:


> That's a big word for a Friday, Malx. I nearly had to get the dictionary out. :lol:


You had me checking my dictionary to check I'd used the correct word!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Hey, quartet lovers! Seems as if Josquin13 has been on the busier side, so if he is OK with it I can resume (for now) thread-running duties. Unexpected circumstances in this most unexpected of years have led to me having more time than I had presumed I would. Haven't heard the Ligeti yet but looking forward to doing so within the next day or so.

Nice to see that we have three new actively participating members in this thread - *Rangstrom, newyorkconversation, and thejewk*. Mind if I just scatter you at random throughout the nomination schedule or would you like a specific spot? Here's a proposed schedule for future nominators. Either way *Simplicissimus* is up next!

Simplicissimus
thejewk
TurnaboutVox
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
20centrfuge
Iota
Malx
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw

_On standby: Vicente, Euler, DTut, MissKittysMom, Shosty, Eramire156 _

And please allow me to clean up Merl's _absolutely atrocious_ violation of formatting standards for the last few quartets we've done:lol: (you know I don't mean that, but I'm not compromising on my American dates!)

02/23: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
03/01: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
03/08: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
03/15: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
03/22: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
03/29: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
04/05: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
04/12: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
04/19: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
04/26: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
05/03: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
05/10: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

05/17: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
05/24: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
05/31: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
06/07: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
06/14: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
06/21: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
06/28: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
07/05: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
07/12: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
07/19: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
07/26: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
08/02: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

Second Round

08/09: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
08/16: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
08/23: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
08/30: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
09/06: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
09/13: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
09/20: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
09/26: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
10/04: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
10/11: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> 02/23: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
> 03/01: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
> 03/08: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
> 03/15: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
> 03/22: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
> 03/29: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
> 04/05: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
> 04/12: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
> 04/19: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
> 04/26: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
> 05/03: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
> 05/10: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
> 
> 05/17: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
> 05/24: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
> 05/31: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
> 06/07: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
> 06/14: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
> 06/21: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
> 06/28: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
> 07/05: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
> 07/12: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
> 07/19: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
> 07/26: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
> 08/02: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)
> 
> Second Round
> 
> 08/09: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
> 08/16: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast)
> 08/23: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
> 08/30: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
> 09/06: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080)
> 09/13: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba)
> 09/20: Sibelius - String Quartet No. 1 "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty)
> 09/26: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
> 10/04: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
> 10/11: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)


*Hey, ACB, I stuck to your nonsensical American date system!*. Bloody Americans! You deserve Trump as your leader. :lol:


----------



## annaw

Merl said:


> *Hey, ACB, I stuck to your nonsensical American date system!*. Bloody Americans! You deserve Trump as your leader. :lol:


Ah, look how beautiful! Sensible, intelligent, perfectly logical... :angel:

23/02: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
01/03: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
08/03: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15/03: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22/03: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29/03: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
05/04: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12/04: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
19/04: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
26/04: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
03/05: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10/05: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17/05: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
24/05: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31/05: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
07/06: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14/06: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21/06: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28/06: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
05/07: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12/07: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19/07: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26/07: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
02/08: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

09/08: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16/08: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast)
23/08: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30/08: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
06/09: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080)
13/09: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba)
20/09: Sibelius - String Quartet No. 1 "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty)
26/09: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
04/10: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11/10: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)[/QUOTE]


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

^Have to admit, I've never seen it that way so it just looks wrong to me. But 99% of the world can't be wrong:lol:


----------



## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio writes, "Seems as if Josquin13 has been on the busier side, so if he is OK with it I can resume (for now) thread-running duties."

Yes, I have been busy lately. But I certainly didn't mind taking over for you. If you need to take another break at some point, just give me a shout. (Or someone else can do it, if they want to have a turn.)

I'm still formulating my thoughts on the Milhaud SQ, which I really liked (despite that I'm no fan of Paul Cezanne's inept skill set--the 'post-impressionist' painter that Milhaud dedicated this quartet to). Thanks for the pick, Merl. This period of French music from the late 19th century to early 20th century fascinates me, and once again--with this 1912 quartet, I find that it was a particularly fruitful period in Milhaud's life and opus. Do people know his 1917 Violin Sonata No. 2, Op. 40, for example?: 



. I like that work, too (not surprisingly, Milhaud was a violinist himself). It has a sort of jazzy American feel. Apparently, Milhaud had discovered American popular music sometime between 1912 and 1917, considering that I don't hear much of a jazz (or is it ragtime?) influence in his first quartet: https://www.amazon.com/Milhaud-Cham...hannel+classics&qid=1602866598&s=music&sr=1-1.) I also appreciated that the Peterson and Parisii Quartet's interpretations were so different. Quatour Parisii's performance was like a balmy summer's evening, it had a certain innocence and joy about it (which may have been partly connected to their decision not to play the original third movement that Milhaud later removed). Curiously, neither Debussy or Ravel came into my mind when listening to the Parisii's interpretation. While the Peterson's interpretation was more serious and had greater substance & perhaps gravitas, and it frequently reminded me of Debussy and Ravel's influence on the young Milhaud; who, amazingly was only 19-20 years old when he composed this quartet. What a talent Milhaud showed at such an early age, he was so imaginative and remarkably secure in his craft.

By the way, I've also recently been listening to William Bolcom's old Nonesuch recording of selected solo piano works by Milhaud, and particularly enjoyed getting to know his "Le Printemps" Books 1 & 2, Op. 18--which is yet another fine work from Milhaud's early period, composed in 1919/1920:





.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000005IVS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Out of curiosity, that prompted me to look up which other composers had studied with Milhaud in California & Paris, apart from Bolcom, and it's an unusually diverse list. Milhaud must have been an excellent teacher to have guided such a wide range of pupils--here are the ones that caught my eye,

Burt Bacharach
William Bolcom
Dave Brubeck
Phillip Glass
Ben Johnston
Iannis Xenakis
Joan Tower
Karlheinz Stockhausen
Seymour Shifrin
Peter Schickele
Steve Reich
Allan Pettersson
Robert Moran
Yvonne Loriod
Gyögy Kurtag

I hope to get to the Ligeti quartet either later today or tomorrow...


----------



## Merl

annaw said:


> Ah, look how beautiful! Sensible, intelligent, perfectly logical... :angel:
> 
> 23/02: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
> 01/03: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
> 08/03: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
> 15/03: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
> 22/03: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
> 29/03: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
> 05/04: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
> 12/04: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
> 19/04: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
> 26/04: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
> 03/05: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
> 10/05: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)
> 
> 17/05: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
> 24/05: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
> 31/05: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
> 07/06: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
> 14/06: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
> 21/06: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
> 28/06: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
> 05/07: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
> 12/07: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
> 19/07: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
> 26/07: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
> 02/08: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)
> 
> 09/08: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
> 16/08: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast)
> 23/08: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
> 30/08: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
> 06/09: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080)
> 13/09: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba)
> 20/09: Sibelius - String Quartet No. 1 "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty)
> 26/09: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
> 04/10: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
> 11/10: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)


[/QUOTE]

Now that's how you do it! Thank you, annaw.


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## thejewk

Thanks Allegro Con Brio, but please take me off the nominations list for the time being. I am quite content having an interesting set of quartets being picked by those with more experience with the repertoire, and the only quartets I have enough familiarity with to pick with any criteria of taste are those of Shostakovich and Ligeti, and I'm sure you can see the problem there haha.

I might ask to be added into the order down the line, but for now I'll just comment if that's ok with everyone.


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## Allegro Con Brio

thejewk said:


> Thanks Allegro Con Brio, but please take me off the nominations list for the time being. I am quite content having an interesting set of quartets being picked by those with more experience with the repertoire, and the only quartets I have enough familiarity with to pick with any criteria of taste are those of Shostakovich and Ligeti, and I'm sure you can see the problem there haha.
> 
> I might ask to be added into the order down the line, but for now I'll just comment if that's ok with everyone.


No problem

15 characters


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## Knorf

For Thors's sake, there have been comments about date formatting than about Ligeti's Quartet No. 2.

Did I just pick a flop?


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## Simplicissimus

I'll post my selection tomorrow, Saturday, 17OCT2020 (standard 9-column NATO date format there )! For anyone rattled by Ligeti, it will probably be soothing. For anyone pumped up by the Ligeti, it might be boring.


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## Simplicissimus

By no means a flop AFIC! Too much work and not enough listening for me this past week, but I am looking forward to Ligeti this weekend (being already very familiar with my selection that I'll post tomorrow).


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## annaw

Simplicissimus said:


> Too much work and not enough listening for me this past week, but I am looking forward to Ligeti this weekend.


Exactly the same case for me. Had an utterly crazy week! Sampled Ligeti's 1st quartet today and I'm interested to hear both of his quartets fully tomorrow .


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## Simplicissimus

annaw said:


> Exactly the same case for me. Had an utterly crazy week! Sampled Ligeti's 1st quartet today and I'm interested to hear both of his quartets fully tomorrow .


In light of all this, I'm not going to post my new selection until late Sunday. More time for Ligeti!


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## thejewk

Knorf, certainly not a flop in my view, just rather hard to talk about. I've listened to a variety of interpretations this week, but I think my favourite remains the Arditti SQ's version included in the Sony Ligeti Works set, although I think it's most likely a result of the fact that it's the version I heard first more than anything.

Ligeti's music is, for me, a rare example of a contemporary composer that is equally stimulating on both intellectual and emotional levels, and the second quartet is a neat summing up of what Ligeti had been working on for the previous decade.

The first movement's delicate sustained and disturbed harmonics make a sort of primordial soup, out of which bursts of energy and activity bubble, before dissolving again. Barely perceptible as individual voices on occasion, the different instruments seem to agitate each other until they spin off from each other, bounce around like particles in a heated dish, and then exhausted, return to their beautiful stupor.

The second movement starts in a similar place to the first, but is clearly more micropolyphonic, with each of the voices starting together and then slowly drifting outwards, only to drop out and begin again. It feels a little cliched to say, but I understand this movement more as a series of shapes in space, rather than as just music. Like amorphous blobs expanding and contracting, like bubbles reaching their limits and then popping.

The third movement, follows the same principles as the first two, but in terms of rhythm rather than colour or shape. I love the sound of the second half of the movement when rhythms ping from one instrument to the next, and then softly and slowly fade out to nothing.

The fourth movement is the least interesting, in my opinion. It tries to pull the trick used in his larger scale works where a large sound mass is terminated, revealing sound that was always there, but not perceptible, creating the feeling of dropping into an abyss, but the small number of voices makes this ineffective in my opinion.

The final movement is like a miniature version of Lontano, and the opening section is the best use of the micropolyphonic divergence in this piece. I find the fluttering voices enchanting. At around the half way point, there is a break into a romantic phrase that reminds me of Shostakovich, only to be replaced by rather spectral cello skittering. The way that the piece finally skitters off sends me right back to the beginning again.

If you have chance, I recommend listening to this on good headphones.


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## Iota

Briefly, it's important to me and I think to the health of music in general, that a rich and diverse avant garde spectrum exists, full of new possibility and expressive horizons. But at the moment I'm not getting a lot from my visits there. The Ligeti and the Xenakis before certainly have plenty of interesting moments, but seen as though through a screen and the experience was not as meaningful/engaging as usual, but I'm sure it's a question of my current disposition rather than any integrity of the music.

Having said that, I listened once with Arditti and twice with Parker, and agree with the earlier comment that the latter seem to approach it as more within an existing tradition, than a complete departure from it. Perhaps consequently I found I preferred that performance and found moments of poignancy in the first and last movements.

Glad to have heard it anyway, it wasn't arduous at all, just rather detached for now, and I'd completely echo the sentiments above that it's no flop.


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## annaw

So, I've now listened to both Ligeti quartets and I must say, I enjoyed them much more than I thought I would . I personally found the first quartet even more enjoyable than the second one thanks to its more conventional compositional language. Partly, it certainly comes down to my own relative inexperience with contemporary classical as well.

What I think I struggled with most was the quietness which occupies a huge part of Ligeti's 2nd quartet. I don't get the all-in loudness from it. For me, the structure feels something like this: quiet - loud - quiet - loud ... . I think I'm just yearning for more cohesiveness but at the same time, I fully acknowledge Ligeti's skilfulness with different sonic musical structures. Those I found quite interesting to follow, particularly, the very beginning of the quartet, which sounds like some random bird sounds to me.

Anyway, it was a very fascinating listening and, again, quite a revelation to me! I feel this thread has quite significantly helped me to come out of my musical comfort zone and discover some very interesting skilfully composed works.

(PS! I'm not saying there is no cohesiveness in Ligeti's 2nd but my musically uneducated mind simply struggles to grasp it.)


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## BlackAdderLXX

Knorf said:


> For Thors's sake, there have been comments about date formatting than about Ligeti's Quartet No. 2.
> 
> Did I just pick a flop?


Lol. My mama taught me to keep my mouth shut if I don't have anything nice to say. This wasn't my cup of tea but I'm sure there's people who like it.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> For Thors's sake, there have been comments about date formatting than about Ligeti's Quartet No. 2.
> 
> Did I just pick a flop?


No, there were an equal amount of negatives about my Korngold SQ. You picked one you like and that's all that matters. Shame you can't pick a football team that's any good though! :lol:


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## newyorkconversation

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Nice to see that we have three new actively participating members in this thread - *Rangstrom, newyorkconversation, and thejewk*. Mind if I just scatter you at random throughout the nomination schedule or would you like a specific spot? Here's a proposed schedule for future nominators. Either way *Simplicissimus* is up next!
> 
> Simplicissimus
> thejewk
> TurnaboutVox
> calvinpv
> newyorkconversation
> 20centrfuge
> Iota
> Malx
> Rangstrom
> BlackAdderLXX
> starthrower
> annaw


delighted to be included, thank you!


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## sbmonty

Ligeti's String Quartet No. 2 is definitely growing on me now that I've listened off and on over the week. The Artemis is the recording I have enjoyed the most. Another nice pick, and exposure to a work with which I was unfamiliar. 
Thanks Knorf!










Plan to listen to No. 1 later today and then a different recording of No. 2. Most likely the Arditti Quartet.


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## Simplicissimus

Ligeti SQ No. 2: I've listened over the past couple of days to recordings by the Arditti, Keller, and Artemis Quartets. I was pleased to find all three of these good recordings on my streaming service, the Keller in Ultra HD even.

I found this an interesting work that repaid the attention I gave to it, but it definitely was not an easy listen. I appreciate the comments above by @thejewk, @annaw, and @Iota; I find them apt. What I liked most in this work were the passages in the first and last movements especially where there were deep and complex harmonic colors that hardly seemed to come from the four instruments at play. They were like emissions from some cosmic entity, unknown and unknowable. What I had trouble with was Ligeti's use -- overuse, to my ears -- of high, squeaky violin sound. I once suffered from tinnitus for a couple of years while I was recovering from a traumatic brain injury, and all I want to do when I hear this kind of sound is to get it out of my head. Is it supposed to convey a sort of angst or tension from the world of 1968 when Ligeti wrote this piece? I don't know. But in that regard, I preferred the Keller Quartet's recording, as it was the easiest on my ears. That's a rather unfortunate statement about my appreciation of the work, I suppose.


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## Josquin13

Knorf,

Thanks for the introduction to this mysterious, fascinating string quartet (& no, you didn't pick a dud!). I listened to the Lasalle Quartet recording on DG, and thought they brought out an intensely imaginative, innovative, & yet strangely human element in Ligeti's music that I hadn't quite expected, as I've found the LaSalles to be a bit on the cold, clinical side in the past--such as with their late Beethoven (with the exception of their Schoenberg recordings, which are favorites of mine, and now the Ligeti).






Bargain alert: If anyone else has enjoyed the Lasalle's recording, the following box set on DG contains both string quartet recordings and is currently a bargain--basically 4 CDs for the price of 1 (at $16.50)--at Presto Classical (until November 1st): https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7950140--ligeti-clear-or-cloudy. I'm going to purchase the set myself. Since the only other Ligeti works that I own in my collection are his 'other worldly' a cappella choral music, such as "Lux Aeterna" and "Im Gestein" and "Drei Phantasien nach Friedrich" and "Libera me, Domine", sung by A Capella Amsterdam, under the direction of Daniel Reuss (coupled with works for solo viola): 



. For anyone that doesn't know, "Lux Aeterna" was famously used in Stanley Kubrick's film "2001: A Space Odyssey":

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7977717--ligeti-lux-aeterna

(A second bargain alert: By the way, another fantastic 'other worldly' choir performance of Ligeti's "Lux Aeterna" in my collection is via a wonderful 6 CD survey of the history of "European Choral Music" recorded by the late Eric Ericson & his remarkable Stockholm Chamber Choir: which has now been reissued by Warner, and is presently being offered at a very reduced price by Presto Classical--6 CDs for $14.50 (also a part of Presto's box set sale, until Nov. 1st): https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8042525--eric-ericson-european-choral-music.)


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## Simplicissimus

Selection for Week of October 18

Who's ready for some opulent melodies and gorgeous chords? I hope this isn't too much of a warhorse, but here's my string quartet selection for this week:

*Alexander Borodin's String Quartet No. 2 in D Major*

Borodin composed this work in 1881 during a productive year in which he also composed another work that has turned into a popular favorite, the symphonic poem _From the Steppes of Central Asia_. Whereas Borodin's first string quartet from two years earlier did not make much of an impression on the musical establishment or public in Russia, this one did. It soon rivaled Tchaikovsky's string quartets in popularity. The third "Notturno" movement has become one of the most famous and recognizable pieces of string quartet music in the repertoire.

There are many recordings of this work. The Borodin Quartet (old and new) specialized in it, and the Emerson Quartet's 1986 recording is well known. I am centered this week on a 2012 recording by one of my favorite ensembles, the Leipziger Streichquartett which I have in my CD collection.









Happy listening!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yay, I love Borodin's 2nd quartet! I know it's super popular but I really do think it's one of the most beautiful SQs in the repertoire. Trout has a recommended recording list:

1. Borodin Quartet (1980)
2. Borodin Quartet (1962)
3. Hollywood String Quartet (1955)
4. Lindsay String Quartet (2002)
5. Cleveland Quartet (1988)
6. Emerson String Quartet (1984)
7. Takács Quartet (1995)
8. St. Petersburg String Quartet (2001)


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## Merl

Jeez I've got lots of recordings of this one. I feel a marathon listen coming on.


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## annaw

Although I really enjoy Borodin's 2nd, I'm relatively unacquainted with it and very excited to discover it further this week. As I finally have a week-long break, I might even engage in binge listening to it. We'll see :lol:. 

The Leipziger recording is indeed very enjoyable! One of my favourite quartet ensembles as well.

EDIT: Sampling one of the recordings by Borodin quartet atm and I'm already in love with the third movement.


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## Simplicissimus

annaw said:


> Although I really enjoy Borodin's 2nd, I'm relatively unacquainted with it and very excited to discover it further this week. As I finally have a week-long break, I might even engage in binge listening to it. We'll see :lol:.
> 
> The Leipziger recording is indeed very enjoyable! One of my favourite quartet ensembles as well.
> 
> EDIT: Sampling one of the recordings by Borodin quartet atm and I'm already in love with the third movement.


Yeah, a guy named Mr. Grinch once told me he hated the third movement, but I've never met anyone else who didn't like it


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Jeez I've got lots of recordings of this one. I feel a marathon listen coming on.


Just be sure you mention how the Emerson Quartet reading is "immaculate" but "somehow lacks soul," and that the best performance ever recorded is the Podunkton Philharmonic Quartet in a monophonic direct-to-shellac format from a live performance in the small ballroom of Count Ignaz Heinrich Fritz von Bummphücke VII's country cottage in the Swiss Alps in 1932, Japanese important only, but be sure to get the THIRD, not FOURTH or SECOND compact disc remaster, and don't forget to rip the CD files to a hard drive because for the sure that'll give you the best ever sound, as long as you are running it through the Semaphore Society DAC with Second Dynasty silk flags er I mean cables.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Knorf said:


> Just be sure you mention how the Emerson Quartet reading is "immaculate" but "somehow lacks soul," and that the best performance ever recorded is the Podunkton Philharmonic Quartet in a monophonic direct-to-shellac format from a live performance in the small ballroom of Count Ignaz Heinrich Fritz von Bummphücke VII's country cottage in the Swiss Alps in 1932, Japanese important only, but be sure to get the THIRD, not FOURTH or SECOND compact disc remaster, and don't forget to rip the CD files to a hard drive because for the sure that'll give you the best ever sound, as long as you are running it through the Semaphore Society DAC with Second Dynasty silk flags er I mean cables.


I hope not. The Emerson is the only one I have! 
I'm looking forward to giving this a few listens.


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## Knorf

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I hope not. The Emerson is the only one I have!
> I'm looking forward to giving this a few listens.


I actually haven't heard it! :lol: But they are always totally committed, and I've no doubt it's excellent.


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## Merl

Yes, it's an old warhorse but it's still one of the most beautiful SQs. Everyone knows the notturno but I'm a sucker for the scherzo in this quartet. So OK, looking at the recordings I have, and having a quick refamiliarisation with them, here are my initial thoughts.

The *Eschers* play beautifully on their BIS recording and sonically it's as good as you get but I want a little bit more commitment in the 4th movement. Nowt wrong here but just something slightly missing. The *Haydn quartet * on Naxos play brilliantly and this would be at the very top but for a slightly distant recorded sound. It's still an excellent account though. The *Emersons* are quite broad in the notturno but their playing is absolutely immaculate and they're tough to beat in this quartet. The *Chilingirians* absolutely nail this one and pace it superbly. Lovely recorded sound too. Easily recommendable. The *Takacs* play this one so elegantly and don't hang around. Listen to the gorgeous interplay in the scherzo (superbly recored) and you'll hear what I mean. An outstanding account. The *Borodins*' 80s account is the recording I've had the longest here and it still sounds great. They may not be as strong in the scherzo as the Chilingirians (for example) but their notturno is angelic and this is a tough version to better. I picked up the* St Petersburg* quartet version many years ago in a charity shop (25p) but rarely play it as I find it overwrought, too broad and a bit schmaltzy.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Yes, it's an old warhorse but it's still one of the most beautiful SQs. Everyone knows the notturno but I'm a sucker for the scherzo in this quartet. So OK, looking at the recordings I have, and having a quick refamiliarisation with them, here are my initial thoughts.
> 
> The *Eschers* play beautifully on their BIS recording and sonically it's as good as you get but I want a little bit more commitment in the 4th movement. Nowt wrong here but just something slightly missing. The *Haydn quartet * on Naxos play brilliantly and this would be at the very top but for a slightly distant recorded sound. It's still an excellent account though. The *Emersons* are quite broad in the notturno but their playing is absolutely immaculate and they're tough to beat in this quartet. The *Chilingirians* absolutely nail this one and pace it superbly. Lovely recorded sound too. Easily recommendable. The *Takacs* play this one so elegantly and don't hang around. Listen to the gorgeous interplay in the scherzo (superbly recored) and you'll hear what I mean. An outstanding account. The *Borodins*' 80s account is the recording I've had the longest here and it still sounds great. They may not be as strong in the scherzo as the Chilingirians (for example) but their notturno is angelic and this is a tough version to better. I picked up the* St Petersburg* quartet version many years ago in a charity shop (25p) but rarely play it as I find it overwrought, too broad and a bit schmaltzy.


Having just spent lots of time with Takacs's LvB cycle, which I loved, I was interested to hear them tackle the Borodin. It's a truly marvellous recording - there's flow and lightness which makes it very elegant and refined. They manage to show off their very quick virtuosic playing and precision - for instance, they play the fast section of Notturno quicker than any other account I've listened to so far but do so very naturally without sounding rushed.

I'm listening to the Leipzigers' recording (again) at the moment and I find it to be more on the Romantic side interpretation-wise. It's very full-sounding but it's also heavier, emphasising the Slavic character of the quartet. Maybe even a bit Tchaikvosky-ish, but very passionate.


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## sbmonty

This 1964 recording by the Borodin Quartet is the only copy I own. I'll give it a spin this morning and venture from there. Nice choice!


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## Josquin13

That's the wonderful thing about our thread. Before yesterday, I didn't even know that Borodin composed two string quartets, let alone a quartet that many people considered to be a great work. I haven't the slightest idea which quartet recording to listen to (which is rare for me). So, this week I'll be putting my trust in Merl. Fortunately, I'm a fan of the Chilingirian Quartet and their 1st violinist, Levon Chilingirian (in Mozart... & they additionally recorded for Sony?), and the Borodin Quartet in Russian music (but not so much their heavily romanticized Beethoven), and the various incarnations of the Takacs Quartet in just about anything ... I'm also curious about the Moscow String Quartet's Borodin Chamber Music box set on Brilliant, since it seems to get good reviews and is inexpensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DJ7BQ0E/ref=dm_rogue_digital.










I'm now looking at my Borodin collection, & it' tiny. I see that I own Gennady Rozhdestvensky's early 1990s 2 CD survey of Borodin's 3 Symphonies & orchestral music, with the Royal Stockholm Orchestra on Chandos, and that's it. Frankly, I've found Borodin's symphonic music to be well crafted but a little boring in the past--except for the orchestral version of the Polovtsian Dances, which I enjoy occasionally.

But I'm now curious to hear Borodin's chamber music for the first time... I see that he composed two String Quartets, a Piano Quintet, a String Quintet, a Sextet, and a Trio for two violins and a cello. How did I not know that? Or that Borodin's chamber music served as the basis for the Broadway musical "Kismet"... including this quartet? Edit: Yes. Or that for Borodin music was only an avocation, that he made his money working as a chemist and physician...


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## Merl

Don't put your faith in me, Jossy! Lol. Seeing as it only took me minutes to reacquaint myself with my own recordings I decided to try out some other recordings (btw, annaw, you called the Takacs perfectly). Like, annaw, I tried the *Leipzigers* and it is indeed a fine performance (a touch dry but that's no dealbreaker). Agree, that it's a little heavier than the Takacs but it's an interesting account and it's not overly unyielding. The *Lark* Quartet give a quite lovely performance in very good sound but it's not up to the very best here in phrasing. For an older, rubato laden approach the *Moscow* quartet are quite delicious in the first two movements and last but wallow too long in the notturno. This is a very old-fashioned approach to the B2 but its also very appealing to the ears. The *Lafayettes* are a little too romantic to my ears too but it's a pleasant enough effort. *Salvatore Accardo* and Co are similarly rather too sentimental and this also sounds like a solo effort than a group performance so interplay is not the best. The *Dragon* quartet produce the quickest performance here but I really rate their slightly more vigorous approach in the scherzo and their command of dynamics is superb. Their reading of the 3rd movement is simply divine. That should wrap up today's listening (unless I have a late night).


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## Eramire156

It has been awhile since I've posted to the thread, I'd thought I share this link to a video of the Borodin performing the Borodin recorded live in Alice Tully Hall on March 24, 2019.

https://www.chambermusicsociety.org/watch-and-listen/video/2019-video-archive-2/borodin-quartet-no-2-in-d-major-for-strings/


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## Roger Knox

Knorf said:


> ... as long as you are running it through the Semaphore Society DAC with Second Dynasty silk flags er I mean cables.


I'll keep an eye out for you next April 1! We did semaphore in Boy Scouts, with silk flags would've been better ...


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## Merl

I squeezed in the *Lucerne* Quartet's quite dark, dry but interesting account but this was bettered by the *Brussels* quartet, who play with a lighter, more jovial feel and with very nice, sprightly rhythms. I only sampled the *Ambassador* quartet but its decent enough, very much in the style of the Takacs but without their superb recording, deft touch or skillful ensemble. Pleasant though. I'm finishing off my listening with the *Borodin's 2005 remake *(60th anniversary recording). It's heavy in rubato, full of willful character and intensely romantic but with such high quality playing and a gorgeous recording I found it just thoroughly engaging.


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## Georgegreece

The last couple of weeks I found myself listening more and more to chamber music. I had no real interest in exploring this genre before. So this thread is a real gift and a guide for me. Thank you.

I found on Idagio a lot of recordings. I'm starting with this one.


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## Merl

Been up since 8am so I've listened to a few more this morning. Started by reacquainting myself with the* Borodin's 60s *disc, which I find as good as their 80s recording, in marginally poorer (but still fine) analogue sound. The *Lindsays* are more warmly romantic in the notturno and lilting and beautifully sprung but still superb here too, making a great case for the final movement. The *Prague* quartet on Supraphon are very lyrical, jolly and buoyant and offer a similarly enjoyable experience but the best this morning are the *Shostakovich* quartet on Olympia, who play so eloquently that I almost found myself sighing with satisfaction during the whole performance. The cooler approach of the *Goldners* was less romantic but equally as valid to my ears and they're captured in lovely sound.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Been up since 8am so I've listened to a few more this morning. Started by reacquainting myself with the* Borodin's 60s *disc, which I find as good as their 80s recording, in marginally poorer (but still fine) analogue sound. The *Lindsays* are more warmly romantic in the notturno and lilting and beautifully sprung but still superb here too, making a great case for the final movement. The *Prague* quartet on Supraphon are very lyrical, jolly and buoyant and offer a similarly enjoyable experience but the best this morning are the *Shostakovich* quartet on Olympia, who play so eloquently that I almost found myself sighing with satisfaction during the whole performance. The cooler approach of the *Goldners* was less romantic but equally as valid to my ears and they're captured in lovely sound.


Your comment about the Lindsays really resonates with me. The three first movements were simply extremely beautifully played with an admirably warm tone but it's the last movement which makes it really stand out IMO. Suddenly, the Romantic spirit is combined with a crazy forward momentum which makes it very exciting to listen to. It functions as a sort of exclamation mark.

I also found the Shosties recording to be very awe-inspiring. I think it's a quite an über-Romantic reading but doesn't engage in the self-indulgence of extremely slow tempos (quite the opposite, in fact). I feel that no other recording has nailed the Russian spirit of this work as well as this one (an appropriate place to mention that to me some recordings bring to mind some Greek folk music in the last section of the Notturno :lol. A fascinating combination of melancholy, fire, and gaiety.


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## SearsPoncho

The Emerson Quartet's recording of the Borodin 2nd Qt. is very good and you get the added bonus of two more Romantic warhorses of the string quartet repertoire: Dvorak's "American" String Quartet and Tchaikovsky's 1st Quartet, which has the famous Andante Cantabile. Of the three, the Borodin is easily my favorite.


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## Malx

Knorf said:


> Just be sure you mention how the Emerson Quartet reading is "immaculate" but "somehow lacks soul," and that the best performance ever recorded is the Podunkton Philharmonic Quartet in a monophonic direct-to-shellac format from a live performance in the small ballroom of Count Ignaz Heinrich Fritz von Bummphücke VII's country cottage in the Swiss Alps in 1932, Japanese important only, but be sure to get the THIRD, not FOURTH or SECOND compact disc remaster, and don't forget to rip the CD files to a hard drive because for the sure that'll give you the best ever sound, as long as you are running it through the Semaphore Society DAC with Second Dynasty silk flags er I mean cables.


I find from experience that silk flags tend to result is an overall too soft sound - I'd try denim flags for a firmer more solid sound only one problem, as they age the sound tends to lose some colour.


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## Simplicissimus

The Borodin SQ 2 has the potential to be sehr, sehr schmalzig if not handled with some care, I think. My Leipziger recording is, as @annaw commented, on the Romantic side, but manages to avoid being overly sentimental, IMO. The two Borodin Quartet recordings that I've listened to and certainly the Emersons are not OTT either. I heard my son's high school orchestra play an orchestrated version of the third movement, and well... yeah. Things can go wrong.


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## Merl

If you want to listen to an ultra-schmaltzy version of the Borodin try the Concord quartet on VoxBox. They drag out the scherzo horribly and wallow for a staggering 10 minutes in the notturno. It was so saccharine I started to feel sick. Lol. Horrid.


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## Simplicissimus

Merl said:


> If you want to listen to an ultra-schmaltzy version of the Borodin try the Concord quartet on VoxBox. They drag out the scherzo horribly and wallow for a staggering 10 minutes in the notturno. It was so saccharine I started to feel sick. Lol. Horrid.


Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I was hoping someone would point out a schmaltzy one so I can know about it for reference. I found it just now on Amazon HD so I'll have to bother myself with it later. Probably won't be able to endure more than a couple minutes, but I like to sample the limits of pieces I like.


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## Merl

Simplicissimus said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I was hoping someone would point out a schmaltzy one so I can know about it for reference. I found it just now on Amazon HD so I'll have to bother myself with it later. Probably won't be able to endure more than a couple minutes, but I like to sample the limits of pieces I like.


Think of it as 'Celi plays Borodin's 2nd string quartet'.


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## Rangstrom

I have 4 recordings that I listened to in what I believe is chronological order. I can't be sure because one is a Melodiya recording and in grand Melodiya tradition fails to list a recording date or even disclose the members of the quartet. It does show a production date on the cd of 1988.

1. Borodin Quartet/Melodiya CD/1962(?). I spent some time trying to run this down. It sounds like an early stereo recording, but the timings are different than the Chandos 1964 set. I did find references to a 1962 recording so my best guess is this is it. The Borodin Quartet recorded and played this work many times and they have the home court advantage so it is no shock that this is a fine showing. The only drawback is the sound which is glassy and a tad harsh. 

2. Prague String Quartet/Denon LP/1977. Another solid performance. If the Prague SQ doesn't have the same home court advantage they are right next door. This is a PCM (pulse-code modulation) recording which was one of the stepping stones to digital cds. It is also a premium pressing with very good sound.

3. Prague String Quartet/Supraphon LP/1981. Yes. I am a fan of the Prague SQ. To me their sound is a bit gruff (or maybe rustic, earthy--not suave, not elegant) and I mean that in a positive way. For some music it just works. I think their set of the Dvorak quartets is a must own. The interpretation here is similar to the earlier recording with a more expansive first movement. Sound, and surfaces, are much better than normal Supraphon LPs.

4. Brodsky Quartet/Teldec CD/1989. Good sound and good performance. Probably the best Scherzo of the lot with a nice lilt, but the 4th movement feels a little disjointed.

So clearly I'm content with the recordings I have. The biggest factor is how they handle the famous 3rd movement. Any schmaltz is a huge problem for me. I'm not a grinch, but the Notturno is my least favorite movement. Thankfully, none of these recordings go down that road. I would, however, give the top spot to the Prague SQ Supraphon set. One special touch: in the last third of the Notturno they highlight the pseudo mandolin (or Balalaika) tremolo accompaniment in a way that sounds tongue-in-cheek. No schmaltz here.


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## Merl

I listened to quite a few yesterday and this morning and have sampled others that I suspected were gonna be average (I was right in each case). *Steckel* *and Co* turn in a fine performance. Its a little closely miked and more romantic in style but I really enjoyed their interplay and they do avoid hyper-romanticism. In their late 50s recording, the *Hungarians* are rather stiff in style and are hampered by pretty horrible sound. A non-starter. The *Britten* quartet gave a few interesting interpretive touches in the scherzo that I wasn't sure about and they're a touch trebly but the rest is a decent enough run-through. The *Albernis* turn in a first-rate account that's similar in vision to the Chilingirians and are caught in a realistic acoustic that makes you feel like they are sat in front of you. The *Borcianis* offer a lithe, brisk scherzo and are impressive in their use of dynamics but the recorded sound is rather rough-edged. I sampled the* Rimsky-Korsakov* quartet but their budget account is light and they go for schmaltz in the notturno. No! Similarly I only sampled the *Stamitz* and *Amati* quartets and neither offered anything more than routine play-throughs. Nothing bad but nothing impressive either. The *Talich* quartet were much better and I love their sense of forward momentum, never loitering in this slightly brisket reading. The first movement is played with enviable brio but I was a little disappointed with their final movement, where they don't give the music the energy committed to the previous 3 movements. However, this is an excellent account and the mid 80s recording still sounds very good.

BTW, Rangstrom, I'm similarly confused by the Borodin's 60s account(s). We're there more than one? I've seen 3 separate dates for them (62, 64, 65) so I'm off to investigate. I own the 80s EMI / Melodiya release so I'm fine with that one and the 2005 release on Onyx is different again but the others are confusing.


----------



## annaw

Borodin did indeed record the quartet in the 60s many times. These are at least the ones I've managed to find:

BBC Legends / BBC Music: Leith Town Hall, Edinburgh Festival, 1962

Decca (with Gabrieli): Decca Studios, West Hampstead, London, 1962

Chandos: Moscow, 1964 (this is also the Alto set?)

Melodiya: 1965 

- a Russian label's recording from the Cold War - I'm not surprised it's a bit obscure :lol:. The backcover doesn't mention the venue but I suspect it was recorded in Moscow. As far as I understand, they recorded B1 in 1958 and B2 in 1965.

EMI: 1987

The 60th Anniversary Release: 2005


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## Merl

Right, this is confusing but I think I've cracked it. Ignoring the live BBC legends recording (which isn't great tbh), I looked at the timings for the original Decca recordings and according to the info it was recorded on the 17th September 1962 by Decca using their FFSS at the Decca Studios and engineered by Jack Clegg. This was reissued many times, often paired with the, Gabrieli Tchaikovsky. Timings are as follows:

7:52
4:47
8:12
6:49
















This is the version that originally showed up on Decca and was later rereleased in numerous formats including by London, Decca and Ace of Diamonds.

The Alto account is almost identical in timings and at first I thought they were one of the same even though the Alto release states that it was recorded in Moscow's Studio 1 in 1964 with V. Skoblo as the engineer. Timings for this one are:

7:53
4:47
8:12
6:51









Listening intently on headphones, the last 3 movements are as near identical as possible (I couldn't tell the difference) but the end of the first movement is definitely different. Strangely the Chandos recording gives the date and venue as Moscow 1964 but doesn't share the Alto timings but the Decca timings. Listening to the two recordings the Decca account has more hiss but interpretively they're near identical. Very odd.

You know you have the 1980 recording if the timings are as follows. They are quite different...

8:15
4:46
8:34
7:16

That recording is on EMI / Melodiya and usually has the cover below.









My heads going to explode.


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## Rangstrom

The Melodiya cd is MCD 138 and is AAD. the timings are:

8:17
4:47
8:36
7:23

which probably doesn't help much.

The Borodin is coupled with the Taneyev String Quintet, op. 14 played by the Leningrad Taneyev Quartet w/ Morozov. The Borodin Quartet has a website, but its discography link goes dark starting on page 3.

BTW I was shocked to find that most of the Prague String Quartet recordings are OOP.


----------



## annaw

Merl said:


> Listening intently on headphones, the last 3 movements are as near identical as possible (I couldn't tell the difference) but the end of the first movement is definitely different. Strangely the Chandos recording gives the date and venue as Moscow 1964 but doesn't share the Alto timings but the Decca timings. Listening to the two recordings the Decca account has more hiss but interpretively they're near identical. Very odd.


Who wants to torture their brain cells a bit? Mine need a rest.

Let's assume that Chandos B2 is in fact Decca B2. What is Chandos B1?

Maybe the Borodins just have an unusually good ability to copy their own playing?


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## Merl

annaw said:


> Who wants to torture their brain cells a bit? Mine need a rest.
> 
> Let's assume that Chandos B2 is in fact Decca B2. What is Chandos B1?
> 
> Maybe the Borodins just have an unusually good ability to copy their own playing?


The Chandos B1 and Alto B1 are identical and so are the B2s. So the Chandos set is definitely the superior Alto set, which is recorded better and sounds slightly different than the hissier Decca.. So there you go, problem solved courtesy of Detective Pikachu*.

(* you're such a silly man, Merl.... grow up! )


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## Malx

Not a quartet I know too well - last night I listened to my Talich recording which I have stuck with not feeling the need to buy others. I get the impression of a quartet playing pretty well within themselves - they keep things moving forward, the playing is of a very decent standard, they don't appear to bogged down in the third movement but somehow they don't exude a great deal energy/enthusiasm.
Maybe thats just how the Talichs are, as this approach seems similar to what I have heard from their Beethoven cycle.

If time permits I may try streaming a couple of other recordings before the weeks out.


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## Merl

To make all this Alto, Decca, Melodiya nonsense even more complicated it seems that Alto often re-issue old Decca, Mercury, London, Melodiya, Collins, Vox and Vanguard recordings, often with their own remastering jobs (which are not always successful. So this is what I think.

The following 3 recordings are all the same ones but the red Melodiya set gives recording dates as 1958 (B1) and 1965 (B2) and Chandos and Alto give them as 1964. All have been remastered pretty well to eliminate tape hiss.























I think that although the The 2nd quartet on Decca (1962) is almost identical there are differences in sound in all movements and especially the last movement so I'm guessing that there was very little time between all these recordings but all the Decca releases have higher degrees of tape hiss too. Whatever the case, the 3 above are the accounts to hear but the best transfer of the Decca is the one that turned up on the Essential Borodin compilation. What I do know is that the Borodins didn't record the 1st for Decca. Who knows the full story (Russian recordings of the 60s show up in all forms on all labels these days). There's no doubting the later Melodiya / EMI set as it is different in sound (late analogue but as good as early digital) and has different timings and phrasing. Hope that clears things up. Lol


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Regardless of all the confusion about their different recordings, I think the Borodins, predictably enough, have mastered this work like no other ensemble. They really capture the über-Russian-Romantic essence of the music without making it sound indulgent. You just won't hear any quartet playing like them nowadays with those big, swooning portamenti and fat vibrato but that's part of the charm. Borodin dedicated the work to his wife and that sense of wistful romantic passion really needs to come through.


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## Portamento

Sorry to spoil the mood, but I'm not a big fan of this quartet. I'll try to articulate my thoughts the best I can:

The first movement is beautiful, but since Borodin doesn't "vary" his material much it's probably too long for its own good. I suppose he's somewhat like Schubert in the way he treats his themes (i.e., letting the music meander), but Schubert has a way of playing with expectations and perceptions of time that justify his often large-scale structures. There was not one moment here where I was actually surprised by anything Borodin did. Also, I've been told that the constant back and forth between the cello and first violin is supposed to represent Borodin and his wife, but it _does_ get monotonous. The scherzo and notturno are both fine and dandy, but the fourth movement is... well, boring. I don't think the theme(s) are anything special, and I don't find what he does with them very interesting either.

There you have it.


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## Merl

So that's another SQ battered and I heard lots of recordings I liked that I had never sampled before. The ones below are split into 2 tiers. Suffice it to say that I'd happily recommend any of the tier 2 recordings to anyone but the tier 1 recordings were special for me and one recording I found irrestible. Here's my thoughts (remember your will undoubtedly differ).

Tier 2 - The Excellent

Steckel, etc
Alberni
Moscow
Leipziger
Goldner
Brussels

Tier 1 - The exceptional

Emerson - listen to the playing at the end of the notturno and you'll understand why this is one of their best recordings.
Chilingirian - a great all-rounder. Superbly played and paced.
Takacs - the lithe, nimble ensemble play make this a joy to listen to.
Lindsays - no one plays this like the Lindsays and their final movement is sublime.
Dragon - a hugely enjoyable, brisk, fresh-faced reading that impressed me greatly and that notturno is a killer. 
Borodin (1980) - it impressed in the day and it still goes to the top of the pile. Exquisite.
Borodin (1964) - see above

Overall winner
*
Shostakovich Quartet*









This beautiful account is so gorgeously played I found it impossible to resist.


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## Simplicissimus

^ The Shostakovich Quartet’s recording, wow! Found it on my streaming service and just listened. Amazing performance bursting with personality! The first movement came alive in a way I haven’t heard before. The first violin is almost giving a solo performance at times, with Kreisler-like sweetness and depth. Very suitable for this composition. The recording is engineered to have the first violin strongly on the left channel, which accentuates this effect. The third movement takes “notturno” seriously - it’s like a lullaby, with exquisite tenderness. And the final movement brings it home with brilliant exuberance. Thanks for the tip, Merl!


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## Merl

Simplicissimus said:


> ^ The Shostakovich Quartet's recording, wow! Found it on my streaming service and just listened. Amazing performance bursting with personality! The first movement came alive in a way I haven't heard before. The first violin is almost giving a solo performance at times, with Kreisler-like sweetness and depth. Very suitable for this composition. The recording is engineered to have the first violin strongly on the left channel, which accentuates this effect. The third movement takes "notturno" seriously - it's like a lullaby, with exquisite tenderness. And the final movement brings it home with brilliant exuberance. Thanks for the tip, Merl!


You summed my thoughts up about this perfectly. Strangely, the Musicweb review of this one was not wholly complimentary but everyone else who's heard it seems to love it. It gets a glowing review in the old Penguin guide though. The first violin is just gorgeous.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Looking ahead to future selections, both *TurnaboutVox* and *calvinpv* have been absent in the thread. I shall PM them both, and if I hear nothing, can *newyorkconversation* please be on standby for this week's pick just in case? Thanks!


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## Iota

I hadn't heard the Borodin before and like Josquin13, didn't even know he'd written any string quartets, my scant knowledge of him came from the Polovotsian Dances/Kismet connection. So thanks to Simplicissimus for putting that right. 

My streaming service didn't have the Leipziger's recording, so following Merl's recommendation I listened to the Shostakovich Quartet. On this first hearing he's clearly a natural tunesmith, although I don't take away much more than this. No wow moments, or little surprises as such for me, it felt more like a lovingly crafted medley than anything organic or exploratory. I found the last movement the most appealing, with a nice feeling of natural elan. Was interested to read about his life and how music only came to the fore much later on.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Well, I ended up with a bunch of new music this week, so my listening has so far been limited to listening to my recording by the Emerson Quartet a couple of times, which I thought was lovely. I think my favorite part was the finale. The rhythmic energy from the opening kind of smacked me the first time I heard it. I'm glad we listened to this.


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## sbmonty

A very sweet sound with this recording. A lovely soothing account. I agree, it is something special.


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## Merl

What's happening for this week's pick, ACB? :trp:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> What's happening for this week's pick, ACB? :trp:


Newyorkconversation is on the clock for a pick. If we don't hear from him tomorrow in this thread I or anyone else will have to step in with an emergency choice!


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## newyorkconversation

I am happy to join in!

*Gabriel Fauré - String Quartet in E minor, Op 121.*

I see that the Ravel has already been covered, and decided to save the Debussy for someone else later on - thinking that this quartet is perhaps a little less familiar and so may give a bit more pleasure to (re)discover.


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## adriesba

OK, time to rejoin this thread. I just listened to Fauré's quartet, specifically performed by the Medici Quartet on Nimbus Records. Not sure what I think of this piece, need another listen.


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## Merl

Haha, nice choice NYC. I was only talking about this quartet with another TC member, last week. It was almost my pick for SQ of the week but I chose Milhaud instead. Written just before he died, Faure sounds like he poured his heart into this dreamlike SQ. In 3 movements and with a very tricky 2nd movement, it's a difficult piece to perform well and there are a few recordings of this I've heard and really not liked, usually because they really drag the piece out so this should be an interesting one. I have a few already and was actually playing one in the car the other day (but it's not an SQ that responds well to any sort of background noise) so I'll be mainly listening on buds at home for these. As I said, there are a number of recordings I know well of this SQ (Ebene, Dante, Auryn for example) but I'm looking forward to hearing some new to me.


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## Merl

adriesba said:


> OK, time to rejoin this thread. I just listened to Fauré's quartet, specifically performed by the Medici Quartet on Nimbus Records. Not sure what I think of this piece, need another listen.


Try another one. The Medicis are realllllllllyyyyy slow in the Faure (see my comment in the post above, lol).


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## adriesba

Merl said:


> Try another one. The Medicis are realllllllllyyyyy slow in the Faure (see my comment in the post above, lol).


Ah, that's probably it. I thought maybe I just wasn't in the right mood to listen to it, but yes, it did seem to drag and lose my attention.


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## annaw

Btw, guys, we've reached the 100th page :clap: :cheers: !

(Faure is a great choice! Excited to discover it further.)


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## Portamento

"I've started a Quartet for strings, without piano. This is a genre which Beethoven in particular made famous, and causes all those who are not Beethoven to be _terrified_ of it!" - Fauré, 1923.

I like this one a lot. More to come later this week...


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## sbmonty

Excellent choice! I'll start with the only version on disc I own. Looking forward to multiple listens and member's comments.


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## Allegro Con Brio

newyorkconversation said:


> I am happy to join in!
> 
> *Gabriel Fauré - String Quartet in E minor, Op 121.*
> 
> I see that the Ravel has already been covered, and decided to save the Debussy for someone else later on - thinking that this quartet is perhaps a little less familiar and so may give a bit more pleasure to (re)discover.


Honest to goodness this is exactly the quartet I wanted to pick for my next selection! Amazing. Faure is my second favorite composer of chamber music after Brahms. There's not a single piece by him that I don't find ridiculously gorgeous. The Wiki may be a helpful information source. 

And here's an updated schedule so we can (hopefully) keep things running smooth:

calvinpv
20centrfuge
Iota
Malx
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw


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## Iota

An exquisite piece! Excellent choice, nyc! Full of those irresistible Faure-esque harmonic progressions with one foot in the twilight of Romanticism and another in the mists of Impressionism. Enough to make one a francophile all over again! 

The Via Nova recording on Erato is the only one I know, but it is a wonderful performance. I'll endeavour to hear others this week, look forward to it!


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## SearsPoncho

sbmonty said:


> Excellent choice! I'll start with the only version on disc I own. Looking forward to multiple listens and member's comments.


This is a great recording. The Debussy and Ravel are idiomatically played and among my favorite recordings of those great quartets. However, the star might actually be the quartet of the moment: Faure's String Quartet. Very well played. Like most Faure chamber music, it's a bit of an acquired taste, and one that does not reveal itself easily. Very late Romantic, with chromatic and tonal ambiguity, but if one can concentrate on the forest rather than the trees, it's a satisfying work of originality which manages to combine elements of late Romanticism, Austro-Germanic expressionism, and, for lack of a better term, French Impressionism, without fully embracing any of those genres. It's a very late composition in Faure's oeuvre, and if one is not receptive to Faure's somewhat cryptic voice of his latter work, I think one will probably struggle to appreciate it. Those who like Faure, are not scared of his later chamber music, and approach this with an open mind and an ear for the big picture will be rewarded with an enjoyable early 20th century composition which reflects much of what was going on in the previous decades, while retaining its own unique character and flavor, and is ultimately uniquely Faure. The subtle combination of late Romantic emotionalism and early 20th century austere expressionism may be a tough sell for some, but others will find it rewarding and "a trip." It's not the end of the world. It's not a candidate for the greatest string quartet, but it is a nice change of pace by one of the greatest late Romantic composers of chamber music, and I always enjoy hearing it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

SearsPoncho said:


> This is a great recording. The Debussy and Ravel are idiomatically played and among my favorite recordings of those great quartets. However, the star might actually be the quartet of the moment: Faure's String Quartet. Very well played. Like most Faure chamber music, it's a bit of an acquired taste, and one that does not reveal itself easily. Very late Romantic, with chromatic and tonal ambiguity, but if one can concentrate on the forest rather than the trees, it's a satisfying work of originality which manages to combine elements of late Romanticism, Austro-Germanic expressionism, and, for lack of a better term, French Impressionism, without fully embracing any of those genres. It's a very late composition in Faure's oeuvre, and if one is not receptive to Faure's somewhat cryptic voice of his latter work, I think one will probably struggle to appreciate it. Those who like Faure, are not scared of his later chamber music, and approach this with an open mind and an ear for the big picture will be rewarded with an enjoyable early 20th century composition which reflects much of what was going on in the previous decades, while retaining its' own unique character and flavor, and is ultimately uniquely Faure. The subtle combination of late Romantic emotionalism and early 20th century austere expressionism may be a tough sell for some, but others will find it rewarding and "a trip." It's not the end of the world. It's not a candidate for the greatest string quartet, but it is a nice change of pace by one of the greatest late Romantic composers of chamber music, and I always enjoy hearing it.


Interesting perspective; I've been in love with Faure pretty much since the start of my classical music journey and I think you described him very well. Would you like to be added to the list of nominators?


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## annaw

I second the Ebene quartet recording. It was prolly the first Faure recording I attentively listened to (not too long ago) and I just listened to it a couple of times again. I love it! It’s not too slow, it has wonderful dynamics, and the instrumental lines can be nicely separated, which feels quite essential for this quartet. I love their sense of “pulse” and the flow they have during the slower movements. It’s a driven performance. Really nice!


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## Simplicissimus

Wonderful choice! I don't have this work on CD and can only remember hearing it once on the radio, after which I intended to follow up with more listens only to become sidetracked as often happens. Whenever I seriously listen to anything by Faure, I develop an obsession for about a week and listen to everything by him that I can lay my hands on. That's probably going to happen to me this week.

This SQ is pretty well represented on my streaming service, with recordings by the Quatuor Ysaye, Ad Libitum Quartet, Medici String Quartet, Stanford String Quartet, and Quatuor Ebene. Hope I have time during this busy week to listen to all of them.


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## Merl

I played the *Ebene* account again this morning and although everything on this disc is superb I agree that the Faure is the star of the show. As I said earlier, pacing and flow are essential to this SQ and the Ebenes have it. A superb reading (killer 2nd movement) and it's been my go-to for this one since I got it. I also have the *Medici* performance mentioned earlier but its almost been to the charity shop a few times as I find it a rather dull, uninvolving one and at nearly half an hour it really outstays its welcome. The playing isn't even that distinguished. I have a few others of my own to work through but I'll try some others from Spotify out in a few days to see if anyone supplants the Ebenes.

Other recordings to consider are:

Ad Libitum
Dante 
Auryn 
Quatour Manfred
Tokyo
Ysaye (studio and live) 
Stanford
Amati
New Hungarian
Loewenguth
Miami
Guarneri
Leipzig
Quatuor Gaggini
Parrenin

If anyone finds any more please add them. There's an old rip of the *Krettly Quartet* from 1935 over on Youtube too but it's dogged by horrid sound, something that is a deal breaker in this SQ for me, so I won't be going there again.


----------



## annaw

Merl said:


> I played the *Ebene* account again this morning and although everything on this disc is superb I agree that the Faure is the star of the show. As I said earlier, pacing and flow are essential to this SQ and the Ebenes have it. A superb reading (killer 2nd movement) and it's been my go-to for this one since I got it. I also have the *Medici* performance mentioned earlier but its almost been to the charity shop a few times as I find it a rather dull, uninvolving one and at nearly half an hour it really outstays its welcome. The playing isn't even that distinguished. I have a few others of my own to work through but I'll try some others from Spotify out in a few days to see if anyone supplants the Ebenes.
> 
> Other recordings to consider are:
> 
> Ad Libitum
> Dante
> Auryn
> Quatour Manfred
> Ysaye
> Stanford
> Amati
> New Hungarian
> Leipzig
> Quatuor Gaggini
> 
> If anyone finds any more please add them. There's an old rip of the *Krettly Quartet* from 1935 over on Youtube too but it's dogged by horrid sound, something that is a deal breaker in this SQ for me, so I won't be going there again.


There're the Parrenin Quartet (also included in Erato's Faure boxset) and Loewenguth Quartet recordings as well. Ysaye has done two recordings - a studio recording released by Ysaye Records and a live Wigmore Hall recording.

I'm listening to Ysaye's live recording at the moment and it's a wonderfully passionate recording in good sound.


----------



## Merl

Thanks annaw. I've amended my previous post to add those in and a few others we both missed. Can't believe I missed the Miami cd out of my first list. I have it here. I was only playing it a few weeks ago for the Saint-Saens. Lol.


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## Rangstrom

I have the Guarneri on LP, the Miami and the studio Ysaye. Those will keep me busy enough.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Thanks annaw. I've amended my previous post to add those in and a few others we both missed. Can't believe I missed the Miami cd out of my first list. I have it here. I was only playing it a few weeks ago for the Saint-Saens. Lol.
> 
> View attachment 144975


Is it a good recording?

Just finished listening to Ysaye's 2nd recording and at the moment I feel the Live is a bit more driven and passionate, although it's ~2 minutes longer. I struggle a bit with following the flow during the slower movements, although I enjoy it a lot.


----------



## Merl

annaw said:


> Is it a good recording?
> 
> Just finished listening to Ysaye's 2nd recording and at the moment I feel the Live is a bit more driven and passionate, although it's ~2 minutes longer. I struggle a bit with following the flow during the slower movements, although I enjoy it a lot.


I need to play it again, annaw, because I've forgotten. Lol. I know what you mean about the slow movements. It's a quartet that meanders continually. That's why I said I have to be in the mood for it. Luckily I am at the moment. I'll listen to the Miami and a few others later. Halfway through the Dante disc as I type.

Edit: I've listened to the *Amati* and *Dante* discs since getting in. Two very different readings. The *Amati* quartet on Divox are probably the quickest on disc in this SQ but it never seems like they're rushing. It's a fine version but the rather dry acoustic and lack of depth in the final movement (those pizzicato need to be louder too) mean that they are not in the league of the Ebenes. The *Dante* recording is much better to my ears. They get a glorious soundstage from Hyperion and you feel very naturally placed in the recording, especially through your speakers. The Dantes employ more vibrato here than many but aren't frightened to be rugged either. They use dynamics really well across the whole performance. No wonder this was a prize-winning disc 10 years ago.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> The *Dante* recording is much better to my ears. They get a glorious soundstage from Hyperion and you feel very naturally placed in the recording, especially through your speakers. The Dantes employ more vibrato here than many but aren't frightened to be rugged either. They use dynamics really well across the whole performance. No wonder this was a prize-winning disc 10 years ago.


Merl, do you own all these discs from labels that don't put their records on streaming services? If so I'm impressed! If not, how do you listen to Hyperion and others?


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## Roger Knox

Not a member of the Weekly SQ group, but here is an excerpt from something I wrote and posted today in another context:

"Fauré’s last composition, the String Quartet (1924) almost immediately developed a high reputation in advanced musical circles (much less in performance then). It began with championship by his student Nadia Boulanger and others, and continued in North America with strong endorsements by her students including Aaron Copland and Elliot Carter. My own composition teacher like many had studied with her and I remember him speaking about "that quartet." Back in the 1970’s I did a very detailed analysis of contrapuntal structures in the quartet for my master’s thesis. The recording that turned me on was an LP by the Guarneri Quartet; on the other side was Fauré’s C minor Piano Quartet with Arthur Rubinstein. I liked that piece even better!"


----------



## annaw

Roger Knox said:


> Not a member of the Weekly SQ group, but here is an excerpt from something I wrote and posted today in another context:
> 
> "Fauré's last composition, the String Quartet (1924) almost immediately developed a high reputation in advanced musical circles (much less in performance then). It began with championship by his student Nadia Boulanger and others, and continued in North America with strong endorsements by her students including Aaron Copland and Elliot Carter. My own composition teacher like many had studied with her and I remember him speaking about "that quartet." Back in the 1970's I did a very detailed analysis of contrapuntal structures in the quartet for my master's thesis. The recording that turned me on was an LP by the Guarneri Quartet; on the other side was Fauré's C minor Piano Quartet with Arthur Rubinstein. I liked that piece even better!"


Thanks for the story and also for your post in the other thread  !


----------



## Mandryka

Roger Knox said:


> Not a member of the Weekly SQ group, but here is an excerpt from something I wrote and posted today in another context:
> 
> "Fauré's last composition, the String Quartet (1924) almost immediately developed a high reputation in advanced musical circles (much less in performance then). It began with championship by his student Nadia Boulanger and others, and continued in North America with strong endorsements by her students including Aaron Copland and Elliot Carter. My own composition teacher like many had studied with her and I remember him speaking about "that quartet." Back in the 1970's I did a very detailed analysis of contrapuntal structures in the quartet for my master's thesis. The recording that turned me on was an LP by the Guarneri Quartet; on the other side was Fauré's C minor Piano Quartet with Arthur Rubinstein. I liked that piece even better!"


Do we know anything about how Fauré expected it to be played - dreamily or energetically? Early recordings seem to be quite punchy compared with (for example) the Ébène pictured above.


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Interesting perspective; I've been in love with Faure pretty much since the start of my classical music journey and I think you described him very well. Would you like to be added to the list of nominators?


Sure!

How does this work? Does someone nominate a string quartet every Monday? Is there a list of what's already been covered? The reason why I ask is if I rely on the search function, I would expect dozens of references to other threads unless it's a very obscure work. In other words, I'm lazy.  Anyhow, I look forward to contributing where I can. It's nice to see other people that have a passion for chamber music.


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## Roger Knox

Mandryka said:


> Do we know anything about how Fauré expected it to be played - dreamily or energetically? Early recordings seem to be quite punchy compared with (for example) the Ébène pictured above.


Good question! I know that even French pianism of Fauré's era had the reputation of being strict, fast and fleet-fingered. Eugene Ysaye's (Franco-Belgian School) solo violin playing that I've heard on record is sometimes at a tremendous clip. And French string playing went for nuance, not noodling around. I'll bet on punchy rather than dreamy style, because the slow movement would otherwise drag. Anyway, late Fauré was neo-classical, not impressionist at all!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Merl, do you own all these discs from labels that don't put their records on streaming services? If so I'm impressed! If not, how do you listen to Hyperion and others?


Ive had the Dante, Amati (£1 charity shop buy) and Ebene for a long time on disc.i only picked up the Miami (coupled with Saint Saens) account recently as it was going for buttons on Ebay - it cost me £2.50. Theyre the only ones ive got. Quite a few of the others are on Spotify. Im always looking for bargains online, ACB. For example I picked up Chailly's Brahms cycle on cd for £4, yesterday. Youve just gotta know where to look and how to search.  My favourite bargain was Tennstedt's Mahler cycle from America for £2.50, new and still in cellophane. I had to wait a month for it to arrive but what a bargain.


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## Allegro Con Brio

SearsPoncho said:


> Sure!
> 
> How does this work? Does someone nominate a string quartet every Monday? Is there a list of what's already been covered? The reason why I ask is if I rely on the search function, I would expect dozens of references to other threads unless it's a very obscure work. In other words, I'm lazy. Anyhow, I look forward to contributing where I can. It's nice to see other people that have a passion for chamber music.


Yup, at the beginning of each week somebody nominates a quartet and we just spend the week discussing great music. I personally find it fascinating to learn about music that other people are passionate about and to spend time exploring the incredible diversity and variety of the classical music tradition through a single genre.

Below is the master list of quartets listened to so far, now updated with a date format that I think will satisfy everybody:tiphat:

23 Feb: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
1 Mar: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
8 Mar: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15 Mar: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22 Mar: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29 Mar: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
5 Apr: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12 Apr: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
19 Apr: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
20 Apr: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
3 May: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10 May: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17 May: Ravel - String Quartet (Eramire156)
24 May: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31 May: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
7 June: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14 June: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21 June: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28 June: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
5 July: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12 July: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19 July: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26 July: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
2 August: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

Second Round

9 Aug: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16 Aug: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
23 Aug: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30 Aug: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
6 Sept: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
13 Sept: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
20 Sept: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
26 Sept: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
4 Oct: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11 Oct: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)
18 Oct: Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
25 Oct: Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)


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## BlackAdderLXX

I don't have a recording of this (yet) but I found Ebene playing it on YT.





This was really good. I was thinking about getting the CD back when we did the Ravel. That's all the excuse I need to buy yet another recording.


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio, thank you for the list! It will save me a lot of time. 

It's interesting that Debussy and Ravel are recognized as mavericks and innovators, yet their quartets are much easier to digest than Faure's String Quartet. Faure's Quartet really requires repeated listening.


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## adriesba

Just listened to the Ébène Quartet recording on Erato. What a difference the recording makes! That last one I tried dragged, but this one was so full of life. I'm thinking I might like the last movement best, but maybe that will change upon another listen.


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## newyorkconversation

a few versions on my streaming service worth listening to include the Leipziger Streichquartette and the Debussy Quartet renditions - for anyone looking for additional performances to evaluate in addition to Ébène/Ysaÿe, etc.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Do we know anything about how Fauré expected it to be played - dreamily or energetically? Early recordings seem to be quite punchy compared with (for example) the Ébène pictured above.


I looked online and elsewhere but there's no real clues on how the composer wanted this played, Mandryka. It was his last piece completed (just 2 months before he died) and his hearing was severely impaired at the end. One thing I have noticed is that older recordings are a littke slower and then 20 years ago everyone started playing it more briskly (Miami, Amati, etc). More recent recordings have slowed back down a little, again, but nothing in the league of the lugubrious Medicis and their pedestrian run-through. The Miami recording is the swiftest I've heard yet, clocking in at just under 22 minutes but I'll listen to that again tomorrow as I was interrupted several times.

Listening to the *Loewenguth* recording today (it's on Spotify under 'French trios and quartets') I was struck by the Loewenguth's unique phrasing. I liked that but what I didn't like was some occasional sloppy ensemble, the prominence of the first violin and the rather shallow recording. However, it is an enjoyable performance but I feel others do it better. The* Stanford *Quartet from 1994 are capable and don't hang about here but their lack of dynamics make the quartet seem a bit samey and underplayed. It's still a decent recording, just a little undistinguished. The *Ysaye*'s studio account is well-recorded and cautiously played. It's a fine account but perhaps others dig deeper into Fauré's textures. The* Ad Libitum *disc is one I particularly disliked when I reviewed their Ravel SQ and my view of their Faure is similarly negative. There's some weird sounds on this recording, like a low rumble, particularly on the first movement, which are particularly annoying at high volume. Furthermore it's not a good performance and the rest of the sound is recessed and oddly-balanced. Unpleasant.

Ive a couple left to listen to including the Leipziger and my own Miami disc (again) . Hopefully I can round these off tomorrow.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I looked online and elsewhere but there's no real clues on how the composer wanted this played, Mandryka. It was his last piece completed (just 2 months before he died) and his hearing was severely impaired at the end. One thing I have noticed is that older recordings are a littke slower and then 20 years ago everyone started playing it more briskly (Miami, Amati, etc). More recent recordings have slowed back down a little, again, but nothing in the league of the lugubrious Medicis and their pedestrian run-through. The Miami recording is the swiftest I've heard yet, clocking in at just under 22 minutes but I'll listen to that again tomorrow as I was interrupted several times.


I actually researched this as well. The quartet was premiered after Fauré's death and thus there's no evaluation of what he thought of the playing etc himself. However, it seems to me that it was never meant to be a very quick or energetic piece. In an interview with Fauré's biographer Nectoux, Nadia Boulanger remarked upon the strength of Fauré's private musical convictions regarding performance practice:

_Fauré used to play more for himself than for others…he played with a very beautiful sonority, but with discretion…Almost as if he was thinking to himself, you know. _

And his pupil Charles Koechlin (a composer and Fauré's biographer) wrote:
_To have heard Fauré at the piano was sufficient to prove that a controlled manner of playing can still allow scope for a great many shades of emotion._

I think his piano playing can reveal something about his musical personality as well. I suspect that the quartet is meant to be serene rather than energetic but of course, I cannot be sure.

(For those interested, here's a musical analysis of Fauré's quartet: https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/154936/1/Childs.pdf)


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## BlackAdderLXX

Picked up the Quatuor Ébène today. I love these guys. The Faure is lovely.


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## SearsPoncho

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Picked up the Quatuor Ébène today. I love these guys. The Faure is lovely.
> View attachment 145031


FYI: The Quator Ebene have a new Beethoven quartet cycle. I believe it was recorded live.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I feel like this quartet totally anticipates the Symbolism/Impressionism of Debussy that was just around the corner. It reminds me of looking at a painting whose shapes are hard to make out but the myriad of colors and the way they are applied is so exquisite that it's enough in itself. Those luscious, pillowy harmonies! It's a ravishing dreamscape in which the ideas are repeated constantly with a very slow sense of development. It's unlike any other string quartet I've ever heard, and, to be honest, one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I've only listened to it twice in my life so far, but the parts that struck me right away was how in the first movement the instruments pass around the melodic and rhythmic motifs (motives?). I found it interesting and beautiful. Similarly, the last movement with the pizzicato parts being passed around between the instruments. Love it.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I feel like this quartet totally anticipates the Symbolism/Impressionism of Debussy that was just around the corner.


Assuming you're talking about the Fauré String Quartet in E minor, I'm puzzled as to how a quartet composed in 1924 anticipated the work of a composer who died in 1918.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Knorf said:


> Assuming you're talking about the Fauré String Quartet in E minor, I'm puzzled as to how a quartet composed in 1924 anticipated the work of a composer who died in 1918.


Oops! For some reason I always assumed that Fauré did most of his work before Debussy and Ravel. I stand corrected. Thanks!


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## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I feel like this quartet totally anticipates the Symbolism/Impressionism of Debussy that was just around the corner.* It reminds me of looking at a painting whose shapes are hard to make out but the myriad of colors and the way they are applied is so exquisite that it's enough in itself.* Those luscious, pillowy harmonies! It's a ravishing dreamscape in which the ideas are repeated constantly with a very slow sense of development. It's unlike any other string quartet I've ever heard, and, to be honest, one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard.


I really like this comparison! The atmospheric, flowing, and blended sound world sometimes reminds me of Turner's landscapes. There's something very similarly Romantic about Fauré.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Oops! For some reason I always assumed that Fauré did most of his work before Debussy and Ravel. I stand corrected. Thanks!


To be fair, he mostly did.


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## Merl

I relistened to the *Ysaye* performance again today and was even less impressed with it the second time around. I actually found it a little boring. Not had much more time but I did squeeze in the *Leipzigers* recording on Spotify. I usually really enjoy this quartet but that is not a good recording at all. Tbh, theres very little wrong with the reading. They play stylishly and there's some nice dynamics and textures but the recording is quite unpleasant and highly resonant, which actually flattens the sound and muddies the perfomance irreparably for me. What a shame!


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## Simplicissimus

I’ve listened now to three recordings, the Ébène, Ysaÿe, and Stanford. I really like this string quartet. The second movement, especially as played by the Ébènes is my favorite part of it. The harmonies are beautiful and just seem to reach into my chest and stir me. If there’s a performance that’s maximally searching and dreamlike, I would like to listen to it. That’s the interpretation that I think works the best for me with this music, that is, emphasizing its Impressionistic aspect, though I hear a lot of post-Mahlerian Modernism in it. There’s a sort of patience and calm in this music that I find extremely attractive.


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## Merl

Final part of my Faure listening journey and the first was the *Miami* Quartet. The recording is a tiny bit brighter but sounds beautiful. Whilst they aren't quite as lovely as the Ebene in the 2nd movement, their finale is superb. A top-class performance all-round and one I'm happy to own. The *Auryn* is another I love but listening to it again today I was struck by just how coherently they follow Fauré's meandering path. Gorgeous tone, stunning recorded Tacet sound and killer ensemble make this a truly brilliant disc (the Ravel and Debussy on the rest of the disc are similarly triumphant). The *Parennin* recording is a bit rough and noisy. Whilst they play well enough there's not the clarity of tone that you hear elsewhere but they certainly don't skip on the dynamics (yay) . I've yet to hear the Guarneri, New Hungarian, Quatuor Manfred and Quatuor Gaggini recordings so if anyone finds a youtube link for those then post tgem here.


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## annaw

Gaggini's here:


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## Merl

annaw said:


> Gaggini's here:


Ta annaw.............


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## Rangstrom

As a fan of Fauré's chamber music (the sonatas, the trio, the piano quartets and the piano quintets), I welcome the opportunity to dive into this enigmatic quartet again. I have three:

1. The Guarneri Quartet on RCA LP released in 1974 in celebration of the quartet's 10th anniversary. Not a dynagroove release thank heavens.

2. The Miami String Quartet on Conifer CD r. 1997.

3. Quatuor Ysaÿe on Aeon CD r. 2004. Aeon is a French label I'm not familiar with. This is a bit of a slapdash release. The disc mate Magnard quartet has a timing listing of 40.74 and the timing listed for the Fauré is off by about 40 seconds, but the biggest problem is that the two quartets are mastered at different sound levels. I've never encountered that on a professional release before.

All three have excellent sound and all three take roughly the same time. I listened to each twice, not from dedication to this thread though. I have a problem with this quartet that seldom happens with any other classical piece. I like the quartet well enough, but no matter how determined I am to listen carefully to the piece after 3 or 4 minutes I find that my mind has wandered off. I'm not bored or unhappy with the work; I just disengage. It happens with every movement with each performance each time. 

If I had to pick, I'd go with the Guarneri but that is probably because it is the performance I imprinted on. I have the other releases because of the companion works--Magnard and Saint-Saëns 1 &2. Afraid I'm not much help this week.


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## Merl

I caught up with the Guarneri 1970s recording and the Gaggini account courtesy of YouTube. The *Guarneri* account was excellent and boasted excellent playing, a lovely full sound and dynamics aplenty. Very impressive, indeed. The *Gaggini* performance was more subdued and pleasant enough but not characterful enough to trouble the best versions of this quartet. I'll round it all up tomorrow.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I caught up with the Guarneri 1970s recording and the Gaggini account courtesy of YouTube. The *Guarneri* account was excellent and boasted excellent playing, a lovely full sound and dynamics aplenty. Very impressive, indeed. The *Gaggini* performance was more subdued and pleasant enough but not characterful enough to trouble the best versions of this quartet. I'll round it all up tomorrow.


I think one essential thing with this quartet is that it is _light_, like a kaleidoscope of coloured feathers.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> I think one essential thing with this quartet is that it is _light_, like a kaleidoscope of coloured feathers.


I agree Mandryka. What I was trying to say is that if its played too lightly it becomes a bit samey. I do like good use of dynamics here, especially in the 3rd movement. Others may prefer a lighter touch but that's fine too. I think that's why I really enjoyed the Auryn performance. Its beautiful and mesmerising in the andante and then they add some superb phrasing and dynamics in the final Allegro. It's never vulgar (far from it) but it adds a spice and richness that sets it apart from some of the others. Love the 'coloured feathers' analogy, btw.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I agree Mandryka. What I was trying to say is that if its played too lightly it becomes a bit samey. I do like good use of dynamics here, especially in the 3rd movement. Others may prefer a lighter touch but that's fine too. I think that's why I really enjoyed the Auryn performance. Its beautiful and mesmerising in the andante and then they add some superb phrasing and dynamics in the final Allegro. It's never vulgar (far from it) but it adds a spice and richness that sets it apart from some of the others. Love the 'coloured feathers' analogy, btw.


Merl, Mandryka, what do you mean by "light"? I think it should be atmosoheric, thoughtful, but still, at times, intense and heavy. That's why I think it resembles Turner's paintings. I see it as thoroughly Romantic and not so much a modern piece (but I have no musical education). It takes great insightfulness from the performers to give the music its real due. A wonderful quartet for sure!


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## Merl

annaw said:


> Merl, Mandryka, what do you mean by "light"? I think it should be atmosoheric, thoughtful, but still, at times, intense and heavy. That's why I think it resembles Turner's paintings. I see it as thoroughly Romantic and not so much a modern piece (but I have no musical education). It takes great insightfulness from the performers to give the music its real due. A wonderful quartet for sure!


Annaw, light may not be the best word, in hindsight. I mean a cloudy, dreamlike atmosphere. I don't seem to be able to articulate anything today. I couldn't even say the word "capable" today
I had about 3 cracks at it.


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## Mandryka

> More than the transformations of the material, as in Beethoven, more than the the colours and the sparkling of its setting, as in Ravel, it is indeed the light of the material that interest Fauré, The multiple harmonic lighting (modulations) that he brings to bear on it, and the polyphonic combinations to which he subjects it transcend the material, which then shines forth like an inner rainbow.


This is from an essay in the Ysaye Quartet recording by Bernard Fournier.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Annaw, light may not be the best word, in hindsight. I mean a cloudy, dreamlike atmosphere. I don't seem to be able to articulate anything today. I couldn't even say the word "capable" today
> I had about 3 cracks at it.





Mandryka said:


> This is from an essay in the Ysaye Quartet recording by Bernard Fournier.


I see, now it all makes sense. And I agree with both!

(Evidently, I cannot manage those polysemantic English words atm. )


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## newyorkconversation

Merl said:


> What I was trying to say is that if its played too lightly it becomes a bit samey.


I have had the thought that these three movements are much more alike than those of most other quartets. But this does contribute to the feeling of the piece being its own world.


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## Merl

OK, so a week of Faure and I still love this quartet. It's been great listening to so many different approaches and recordings and these are are the most impressive recordings (IMO) I've heard. I've also got a slight top pick for this SQ but the ones below are equally impressive in their own way.

Excellent

Ebene - there's a reason so many people here flagged this one as an impressive recording. It's really well played and recorded. Superb and as close to the very summit as you can get. Their andante is just beautiful. 
Dante - such a well-rounded approach that's also well-recorded. More forceful when needed whilst not losing the delicate beauty of this piece. 
Miami - an excellent account which keeps to Fauré's dreamy soundscape. Ends beautifully with a great final movement. 
Guarneri (70s) - more gutsy than the other recordings here but not negatively and the ensemble playing is simply superb.

But there has to be winner this time. It was close but the recording below shaded it for me.

Top pick

*Auryn*
Apart from the fact that the whole disc is superb (the Ravel and Debussy SQs are crackers too) what really impresses about this one is the way the Auryn keep your interest with great phrasing and superb playing. The cello sounds particularly impressive here and the whole performance weaves an ideal and always engaging path through this meandering masterpiece. It's Tacet so sound quality is, as always, stunning but it's not just that. The whole thing oozes class (with a capital C). One of my favourite SQ discs of recent years.


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## calvinpv

So I guess I'm up for this week's quartet.

I asked Allegro con Brio if my choice could be something other than a string quartet proper. He said it "if you have one outside the traditional mold that you're really passionate about, go for it!" which I guess could be interpreted as "Yes". If you meant "No", ACB, well ......... too late! ut:

So this week's piece is:

*Wolfgang Rihm: ET LUX, for string quartet & vocal quartet/octet (2009)*
(the one recording in existence doubles up the voices into an octet, which Rihm is okay with)

Score can be read here






Below are two essays from the CD liner notes. The first was in German, so I had to run thru google translate and then check for accuracy, which took a while with my rusty German. I left out some irrelevant parts that I didn't have time for.

You don't have to read anything below if you don't want to. I understand it's a lot to digest.



> Light -- not eternal rest! Consolation -- not reckoning and punishment! The musical meaning of the Latin mass for the dead has brought Wolfgang Rihm deep into reflection, soul-searching into the old text. What the listener has to banish from _ET LUX_, Rihm lets himself be challenged towards an existential answer to the threatening, frightening "Requiem aeternam". But his musical thinking desires for a reorganization of the traditional wording of the text. He inspects each of the text modules individually, he checks and turns them, he thins out the lines, he shifts their syntax. Other accents of words and meanings suddenly emerge. The sound form is surprising: even for the metaphors of the fear of death, Rihm finds a soft, quiet, almost weightless tone. And for the work title's distinguishing feature, that brightness: that is already contained in a line in the Roman Requiem: Et lux perpetua luceat eis (and the eternal light shines on them).
> 
> Wolfgang Rihm opens up a new horizon, freed from archetypes and conventions, of the much-celebrated rituals of the dead by writing music that creates transparent, yet strictly structured, sound relationships. In them, a basic message becomes noticeable, the profound anguish over the inescapable tragedy of life -- all life back towards death [alles Lebendigen zum Tode hin]. This music can, in its expressiveness, dispense with all rabid vocal and orchestral obsession: No fear- and terror-inducing "Die irae" waves breaking all over the listener, as in the Mozart or Verdi Requiems. Instead, the archaic Latin and its objectifying linguistic harshness becomes for the medium one of withdrawn gesture, over stretches [of the music] only whispered, fragile contemplation, a self-questioning.
> 
> Such an emaciated sound language wants to dispense with the large choir and orchestra apparatus. But even still, it catches by surprise the unbending attitude of reduction -- that a Requiem composition can be taken up by just two times four musicians: For _ET LUX_, a vocal quartet and a string quartet is sufficient for the composer. Thus, a chamber music fabric arises, in which the sound images and gestures of old and new music alike come together symbiotically: specialists in Medieval and Renaissance music, such as the Huelgas Ensemble, play together with the Minguet Quartet. It takes no more than eight highly experienced, inspired solo voices -- with the Huelgas musicians here doubling their four voices -- in order to build up an inner sound intensification and spirituality with such meager external means, which in contemporary music is currently without precedent.
> 
> Many years ago, Rihm was already thinking about the way in which language and music combine with each other, how "language as the occasion for music" can be possible. He saw three paths for the composer: first, "the text is underlined", second, "the text is crossed out", and third, "the text is dissolved". And Rihm adds the certainty that, at any rate, text and music form a living organism, which means something like -- "one through the other: something new arises in one another". The requiem composition _ET LUX_ -- so much as one can speculate -- is, in a broad sense, a combination of the three possibilities of merging music and language. Since the beginning, Rihm has let such a lively "intertwining" of words, text and sound motion become music in numerous compositions, in all of the Lieder, Gesängen, Operas, "Abgesangsszenen".
> 
> ...
> ...
> ... (a brief timeline of Rihm's religious works)
> 
> _Das Lesen der Schrift_ ["The Reading of Scripture"] -- the title stands for the ability of this composer to engage with the texts with seismographic sensitivity. Only "reading" -- the literal understanding of text and textual layers -- is for Rihm (who, by the way, names "deciphering and learning the terms" as the prerequisite of every reading) the foundation of this [engagement], rather than a straightforward "musical setting", in order to bring about that depth of focus on a pre-musical textual interpretation by its alteration and destruction, through the metamorphosis of words.
> 
> In _ET LUX_, Wolfgang Rihm is simultaneously composer and exegete of the Latin Requiem text. He selects, he interprets it, illuminates the parts, he sets word and meaning accents. It is symptomatic of the composition that he neglects the "Sequence", which from Mozart to Verdi is spectacularly set to music with its shock images of the "Day of Anger". Rihm avoids the exalted boldness of "Day of Anger", taken from the outward appearance of brutal horror; he rather lets the music spring forth from the interior of the text, up to and including the dissolution of the text into the purely instrumental. Necessary is the formal idea of fragmenting/splintering of texts, so that the music can unfold, stand out from the text, accompany it, transform it, complement it, pause before it, unite with it or wait for it. Rihm sets word signals, for example: "et lux, lacrimosa dies illa, dona eis, luceat", at the end "perpetua, libera, et lux" fading in pianississimo.
> 
> The polyphony of the sound current of such a double four-part composition becomes charged with tension through the somewhat brooding slowness of the movement of long notes, the punctually hard dynamics and the fragmented text components. Out of the calm flow of an extremely slow music, however, outbursts rise sporadically, in the densest phrases, pushing forte and fortissimo explosions upwards -- sforzatissimo explosions, as it were -- as musical signs for the releasing outcry. For the consolation and the deep concern that Rihm wants to let [the listeners] feel in the "layers of these words". Yet, the harmonic constellations play a large decisive role: The always changing intervallic references, with their harsh tonal frictions and constant modulations, produce a quasi-dizzying vortex of listening, by way of an internal tension, which in the "instinctuality" of constantly changing harmonic ambiguity continue the Renaissance music and daring artistry of Gesualdo da Venosa, without quoting them.
> 
> Although the Latin Requiem texts clearly make themselves felt, they are allowed to vanish over and over into a musical stream that now unites early music and the present-day musical avant-garde towards a new Art.
> 
> Wolfgang Schreiber





> To sing is to remember. This is so in the practical sense, of course, that singers must have learned what they sing -- must, at least to some extent, be singing from memory. But also, singing is a means by which memories of many different kinds, from different sources, are given voice. In and through what they sing, singers are projecting what they remember. And in and through what they create for singers to sing, composers, too, are giving expression to what they remember.
> 
> This is true also when the singing is being done by musical instruments.
> 
> Composed in 2009, and though unimaginable much before that date, Wolfgang Rihm's _ET LUX_ emerges as if from centuries before. The sound is that of a string quartet, pianissimo, the musicians playing with mutes, the three on upper instruments bowing very close to the fingerboard, so that the colour fades to that of the string instruments of former times. What we hear is a memory of a consort of viols.
> 
> Or rather, it is not that memory but an approach to that memory. What Rihm presents is not a reproduction or an imitation, not a retrieval but the process of retrieving, the process of remembering. Music is remembering itself, trying to remember itself, trying to remember how it was, which it does not now know, but can only try to remember.
> 
> What we have is not music remembered but music remembering. It begins on G, violins and viola in unison, the cello plucking a harmonic. The line goes on, up a tone, then up a tone again, faster -- or at any rate less slowly -- and at a higher level, a fourth above, so that a modal space beings to reveal itself, only for this vision to cloud over as the line repeats its whole-tone rise yet again a semitone below, superimposing a chromatic space on the modal.
> 
> This chromatic space will remain. But so too will the modal, like the memory never to be reached but only now and then touched, by an act of remembering that is ceaseless and multiform. Music that is remembering is positioned simultaneously then and now, distant and direct, modal and chromatic.
> 
> The viola stays as the violins go on, but only so that it can then follow them, monody giving way to canon, as it did when polyphony arrived, as it does in any fugue. Still there is this etiolated sound that speaks of long ago, even as the intervals continue astringent, until the quartet comes together again on the opening G, and the music re-enters its own memory. And so the line goes on into a second phrase, a second phase, with some of the same signals along the way, until that G is restored once more, the music squeezing back again into the point from which it arose, except that this is no longer the same point but rather the memory of that point.
> 
> Into this memory space, voices are prompted to enter, and what went before redefines itself as introduction, or as a housing for a chorus - a chorus that, though depleted, is continuing, these few voices striving to remember where they should be, what they should do, how they can make use of this housing, if that is what it is, and not an open desert across which they must travel, by what means they can, with what means they have, with what means they did have, which include words, those of the Latin Requiem Mass, as they find what memory of theirs will match the memory already in motion.
> 
> These voices are multiple, not only in that there are eight of them, and the memories are multiple. They are real singers, searching their individual memories and also the memory they share as a performing group, sifting their experience of music they have sung before for what relevance it has to music that is at once similar and new. Then they are the abstract voices of the score, four parts that are also moving through memory, through the whole memory of four-part music in the western tradition, creating as they go a music that is at once similar and new. Then they are actualized figments of the composer's memory, drawing on what he remembers, actively and passively, of singing in choirs, and often of singing these same words, in other settings.
> 
> All these voices, voices present and voices remembered, are prompted to enter on an E-flat major chord, fitting themselves to the strings, who, however, are already moving on, or moving away, so that the voices are instantly destabilized, and have to find their way within instability, have to find themselves within constant shift, breakdown.
> 
> This is how things are.
> 
> Soon the voices begin to discover their oldest consonance, the open fifth, and their oldest four-part cadences, on to such fifths. They begin to discover how they have so often shed tears in downward scales, and can do so again, in what may be more than a memory. They remember how it was, and find it still is. These voices have withdrawn into a narrow range, defined in one sense by how the top part was written for a counter-tenor, reaching only very rarely above E on the treble staff, and yet that E is still a moment of radiance, from which fall more tears.
> 
> The tears of memory feel like real tears. We touch our fingers to our eyes.
> 
> A Requiem is a remembering. This is a remembering of a remembering, or a remembering of a remembering of a remembering, on down the mirrored corridor of memory.
> 
> We may feel we do not know now how to remember the dead. We have the words, the form, but are these more than the memory of the words and the memory of the form? To sing is to remember, but is it more than that?
> 
> As it goes on remembering, the music strays into many memory sites, even simultaneously, Renaissance and Romantic, but in so straying it is finding itself, testing its progress as it makes progress, testing its limits as it discovers limits.
> 
> The text begins to dissolve in the flow of time, as the separate prayers nestle into the one prayer, which is perhaps not a prayer at all, since it is addressed only to us, with some words re-echoing, again and again, while others -- DEUS -- have been lost forever, and the strings in response to the words and the absences of words may not always offer a sympathetic ambience or surface but may rise and jab in protest or exhortation.
> 
> DOMINE may be a question, to which ET LUX is not (only) the answer. Yet the notion of perpetual light brings consolation in an arrival into C major, except that the extending of consolation moves into disturbance and questioning, for this perpetual light maybe blinding, may be searching, and the voices are stopped as the questioning and the disturbance and the consolation go on in the strings, after which there is anxiety, and more tears, and a viola solo, and a gasp, as the voices give out again, and then come back, all but the basses, with no words.
> 
> Then the voices and the words will return, and sound as they did before, which can never be as they did before. The voices may go silent, to leave only the sopranos, or only the tenors and basses, or no-one at all but the strings, which may try to maintain the not-prayer, and fail, or they may question one another, there being no-one else to question, and question one another again.
> 
> Fifths: the intervals that the strings have built into them and that the voices have long learned, and so important here the precise intonation.
> 
> LIBERA ME: the call for liberation from what must not be named, until it must, after which comes the drama, and the music reroutes itself, re-roots itself, as the DIES IRAE arrives unannounced, and once more the voices seek comfort in the familiar, to be admonished.
> 
> And there are times when the voices drift away from the text, after so many pulsing syllables, or the text drifts away from them, leaving from MAGNA ET AMARA only the panting A-A-A.
> 
> LACRIMOSA, sliding in its own tears.
> 
> Memory repeats in the hope that the words may be made to mean something again, or in the hope again that their meaning be annulled.
> 
> Again and again, ET LUX, ET LUX, always to the outrage of time that wants to go on. And the clamour from the strings when the voices have frozen. And again ET LUX.
> 
> Paul Griffiths


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## calvinpv

And below is an introduction to Rihm's music as whole, which I wrote I several weeks ago for the 1980-2000 listening group when presenting Rihm's masterpiece _Jagden und Formen_. For those of you who already read it back then, I made a few changes for _ET LUX_ but otherwise is the same.

And just to be clear, you don't have to read this if you don't want to. I'm just posting this in case you're interested in understanding Rihm a bit more, but the liner notes I posted above are sufficient for _ET LUX_ (and you don't even have to read those; _ET LUX_ is a pretty easy work to digest).

*A Guide to Wolfgang Rihm's Overall Style*

As with a lot Rihm's music, _ET LUX_ is built up from a complex network of interrelated techniques, philosophies, and aesthetic ideals. As someone who studied philosophy in college, I find this aspect to be most stimulating part of his music, because it challenges me to listen to music as a set of ideas manifesting themselves through sound as opposed to music as a neutral site of expression devoid of any belief, doctrine or ideology. But this aspect is also the most important in understanding Rihm because, unlike with other contemporary composers, these ideas are quite explicit. Even if you're aren't well-versed in music theory or performance -- I'm certainly not -- it might, nevertheless, be good to know some of the underlying philosophical positions Rihm holds. Because otherwise, what will happen is either you won't understand the purpose of the work or you will have a pseudo-understanding and pigeonhole him into a bucket that does him no justice. So I've been reading around and have condensed what I learned into 5 main takeaway ideas (the words in bold below), with many examples. Hopefully all of this makes sense -- I apologize if this gets a little too deep into issues of epistemology and the philosophy of language. Of course, if you want to first listen to _ET LUX_ with a blank slate, then do so.

And for those of you new to Rihm and who liked _ET LUX_, a lot of the pieces I list below are great works to check out. They will certainly be more dissonant than _ET LUX_ -- _ET LUX_ flirts with tonality probably more than any other of Rihm's pieces -- but they all adhere to the same fundamental concerns, and they all possess striking similarities in style.

*Semiotics:* Though the post-structuralist philosophies of Derrida, Lacan, Foucault, Barthes, etc. failed to take root in Germany until much more recently, Rihm, as a young composer in the 70s and 80s, was still reading these philosophers from afar and drawing some basic lessons from them. Chief among them:

1. The instability of meanings of signs and symbols. A "sign" is composed of two components: a physical object, or a written/spoken gesture, as well as the meaning that physical element points to. For example, a stop sign is composed of two parts: the physical octagon-shaped metal on the side of the road and the meaning, which is that you need to stop. So when a sign's meaning is destabilized, it's when the meaning is ambiguous or constantly shifting. Post-structuralist philosophers contend that all signs have this problem, if you were to tease out their meanings enough.
2. How these signs have to be in a proper setting and context for them to even make sense. Continuing my stop sign example, the only reason the sign means "Stop" to drivers is because there was a governing body legislating a metal sign of that shape and color to mean "Stop", because there was a citizenry that agreed to that decision, because the signs are placed next to roads (over which the governing legislation has jurisdiction), because the signs are placed next to other signs that have analogous meanings ("Yield", "Go"), etc. If a stop sign were placed in the middle of a desert far away from any road, it would lose the meaning we normally associate it with because it's out of context. I know this is a weird non-musical example, but I'm trying to drive the point home.
3. The inability to incorporate the irrational elements of our world into our systems of meanings.
4. The way history, tradition, and the personal/collective memories of our past shape our present identities, expectations, and our roles in society. History, tradition, and memory, of course, are invariably intertwined.
5. The struggle to free ourselves from the shadows of such identities, especially when they may be partly responsible for the 20th century catastrophes in Germany.
6. The need to show that such identities are even in tension with themselves.

Rihm uses his music as a medium to convey these ideas -- often in very creative ways -- and sometimes, one gets the sense that his music is secondary to the message.

Examples for the first three points:

1. In the third song of the _Neue Alexanderlieder_, traditional tonality -- and all the ways it assigns meanings and functions to chords - is in play until the final two chords for the piano, where first we have a major seventh chord on the tonic, a rarity in traditional tonality, followed by a minor triad on the dominant, another rarity especially since the key is major (specifically Ab). Moreover, these two chords are repeated for an awkwardly long time at fortississimo, suggesting the chords have lost their tonal functions and have become a physical bludgeon. Also, the misanthropic text cuts against the triumphant feeling of the music.

2. In _Sub-Kontur_, a musical fragment reminiscent of Mahler -- labelled "adagio" in the score, almost as a nod to Mahler's 9th -- claws its way to the surface of a music that is elemental and chaotic (the dearth of treble instruments also lends the music a murky color). Only twice does the fragment fully succeed, about halfway through the piece and again towards the end; other times it partly succeeds, and the rest of the time, the downward sloping melodic contour of the fragment is diffused throughout the chaos, unable to coalesce into something more refined and dignified. Thus, the fragment is always suggested but is never recognizable unless we hear it in a familiar form or context. For an interesting comparison, the more recent pieces _Verwandlung 1_ and _6_ do the reverse of _Sub-Kontur_: an instantly recognizable melody at the beginning -- mostly made up of perfect fifths -- gradually gets dissolved into the structure of the work.

3. In the opera _Die Eroberung von Mexico_, the Aztec king Montezuma lived and acted according to what the chronicles and omens prophesized, as opposed to any sort of utilitarian thinking. The upside: such a system breeds a sense of familiarity and comfort with the world around you because the same signs will yield the same meanings (e.g. if it's prophesized to rain tomorrow for such and such reasons, it's because the chronicles list past rain showers happening for the same such and such reasons). The downside: omens are completely useless for an unprecedented event. So the arrival and destruction of Cortez was a complete shock to Montezuma, since it was an event with no precedent in the chronicles. In the music, Montezuma's lines are mirrored across two background vocalists and the orchestra, and they are very non-distinct: he is at one with the musical "world". Cortez, however, is set to music and background vocalists at odds with his lines; his lines are also very rigid and militaristic sounding.

*Atavism:* Though I believe Rihm doesn't use this term himself, it's a fitting description for that physical and violent aspect of his music that pokes its ugly head up from time to time. You can hear it in the sudden transitions and dynamic outbursts, in the use of extremely high and low registers simultaneously, in the trance-inducing yet irregular rhythms, in the mechanical repetition of a sound object that pulverizes its attributed meanings into oblivion (the _Neue Alexanderlieder_ example above), in those passages that have no function whatsoever except to disrupt the flow of what came before, or in the guttural noises and screams mostly found in his theater music. For example, in _ET LUX_ from 15:20-16:55 in the above video, after the voices sing "deliver … from the pains of hell" (taken from the Offertory), they let out a wordless sigh of relief followed by pulsing tremolos in the strings -- the first real tense point in the work -- and then followed by wordless screams from the voices, as if they were suffering in hell.

There is a reason for all this, and it stems from his positions on semiotics in two ways.

First, through these physical gestures, Rihm is making a statement on the ultimate fate of all signs. As meanings destabilize and new ones are acquired, old ones get discarded and recede into the distance of time; the older they are, the more alien and incomprehensible they appear until there comes a point where they are representative (in our minds, at least) of a primordial past beyond known history and hence come off as violent intrusions to our current systems. An obvious example: in much of Medieval and Renaissance music, the rhythms, church modes, melodic phrasings, liturgical texts, etc. had highly nuanced meanings and functions that are now lost on our modern ears; unless you are a specialist music historian who studies this stuff all day, the music will sound totally alien and the sense of beauty you feel borders on the mystical (compared to a more familiar and comprehensible beauty in, say, a Strauss tone poem). And hundreds of years from now, this music will be alien even to the specialists. To me, this is one of more interesting things I gleamed from reading about Rihm, and it's a cool way to interpret the raw and austere gestures in his music.

Second, though Rihm seems to possess a 19th century Romantic view of the artist, he also complicates the picture. The Romantic view believes that an artist is one of those rare individuals who can, through their work, reveal the sublime depths of our inner spiritual self in all of its completeness and profundity, or perhaps even the inner depths of the Spirit of Nature. Rihm may believe in the profundity of the inner self, but that profundity must include the body as well as the spirit, the body with all of those grotesque fluids, rhythms and gestures - gestures that are irrational to the inner spirit, yet nevertheless make their way into the music alongside the spirit. So instead of feeling fulfillment, we feel estrangement, wondering what part of ourselves did we manifest in the music, what taboo did we unlock. Rihm thinks Schumann (and reading between the lines, Janáček as well) is a composer who was gifted in tapping into this physical side, and his _Fremde Szenen_ take Schumann's Op. 110 piano trios as sources of inspiration, where he takes Schumann-sounding gestures and exaggerates them until he squeezes out their physical underside. In _Jagden und Formen_, the long solo for English horn seems to exist solely to provide rhythm. And in the concerto _Styx und Lethe_, the solo cello is like a twitchy, nervous subject that wants to unleash its libidinal energies over the orchestra that holds it down, and it eventually succeeds.

*Chiffre (cipher):* This term really makes its way into Rihm's lexicon in the 80s and could be considered a consequence of the previous two. If a sign is unable to retain a stable meaning or have a stable referent, then maybe there is something inadequate about the sign itself, that maybe it doesn't fully encapsulate the referent it's pointing to. That is to say, perhaps the solution for Rihm's musical signs is not to inadequately express some tradition of the past but for them to _be_ a tradition, for tradition to begin and end with a musical sign. Of course, it would be impossible to encapsulate hundreds of years of past music into a single gesture or sound space, so Rihm decides instead to create totally unique sound blocks à la Edgard Varèse's sculptor-like approach to sound. These sound blocks, called "chiffres", or "ciphers", are free-standing because, again, the referent is fully present and in no need of an external crutch; in fact they can make up an entire piece of their own -- as in the case _Nachstudie_, a solo piano work extracted unaltered from the piano concerto _sphere_ -- or they can co-exist with other ciphers in a single work, so long as they're sufficiently differentiated. These sound objects, instead of leaving in the mind some faint impression of a historical music, deliver hard physical blows to the eardrums (if not literally, then at least figuratively speaking). And being free-standing, they will also create their own reality and, through the composer, can be molded and played around with at will without losing their unique musical identity. This approach to music composition also has connections to Stockhausen and his concept of "moment form", where hermetically sealed "moments" can be placed in any order because they lack any premeditated connections to other moments.

This concept is very clear in the _Chiffre_ cycle as well as in a piece called _Sphäre um Sphäre_ (this latter work is derived from _Nachstudie_). In _Chiffre I_, for example, the thin filigree texture of the piano often gets resonated by the other instruments with chords of the same pitch material; sometimes, these instruments will adopt the piano texture for themselves and will even play in rhythmic unison with it. In listening to the piece, one should get the sense of a single multifaceted sonority that lasts the whole 8 minutes. In _Chiffre II_, same thing with the addition of some long silences in between sections to further add a sense of isolated blocks. In _Jagden und Formen_, the chiffre concept presents itself differently. Instead of a single multifaceted block of sound, we hear multiple superimposed blocks that don't seem to interact with one another. There is no question-and-answer type of exchange between blocks and no development of more fundamental cells (except in a couple of places, such as at the very beginning, where the pitch material of the strings is that of the woodwinds). In fact, the form of the piece is based almost entirely on the arrangement of blocks and less on any internal development within or between blocks. If such development can be discerned, it's entirely by accident, though Rihm probably wouldn't mind finding out about such things.

*Übermalung (overpainting):* Though the concept of "cipher" doesn't necessitate the superimposition of sound blocks, since they're allowed to be heard in isolation like in the _Chiffre_ cycle or _Nachstudie_, layering music does, admittedly, open up a whole realm of possibilities. For instance, the stratification of music into layers allows you to develop musical forms based entirely on how the layers rise and sink to and from the surface. The most obvious way of portraying this rising/sinking motion is to make one layer louder in volume over another. A less obvious way requires you to think horizontally instead of vertically: instead of layering two blocks simultaneously, you can splice one block in half and insert another block of a different nature between the two halves, giving you the impression of one block completely silencing another block without that being the case. _Verborgene Formen_ is a great example of this, which is made up of a piece called _Nucleus_ spliced into three sections in between which are new passages as well as the entirety of a piece called _Pol_; when listening to the work, you get the sense of _Nucleus_ rising and falling to/from the surface (of course, you have to be familiar with _Nucleus_ to hear this).

The layering idea (called "overpainting") derives from painter Arnulf Rainer, who would partially or completely paint over works or photographs by other artists, usually with thick layers of pigment so that the act of layering becomes part of the message the art is trying to convey. Rihm does something similar with his manuscripts: he cuts them up and glues photocopies of old manuscripts he wants inserted in between, and you'll notice this if you read the scores. Cutting and pasting manuscripts together raises an interesting issue: is there an end to this process? Is there such a thing as a final work? Rihm says "No" and is challenging us to see the dialectic between the search for a form and the form itself. Musical forms are not derived a priori -- and never have been derived a priori -- but are derived from immersion in the musical material. And if you were to alter the material -- be it a chord progression, a melodic phrase, a rhythmic sequence or, in the case of Rihm, the arrangement of sound blocks -- the overarching form will also be altered. Form and content do not exist separately. The supreme example of this dialectic is in _Jagden und Formen_. Out of its 50 minutes of music, only 5 or so is new material; the rest is a collage of old material from _Gejagte Form_, _Verborgene Formen_, and _Gedrängte Form_. What's most interesting about placing old material into a new context is that it acquires new functional roles and sheds old ones without any internal changes to the material itself. For example, bars 15-27 of _Gejagte Form_, which are part of an introduction, appear four times unaltered in _Jagden und Formen_: as part of a secondary subject at the beginning, as part of an accompaniment about 10 minutes in, as part of a development, and as part of a recapitulation.

*Fleuve (flow? river? flowing river? Hard to translate):* This final point is nearly indistinguishable from "overpainting", but it's really the particular way he achieves "overpainting" over and above what he does with the splicing of manuscripts. It also explains the sense of momentum and energy you feel in pieces like _Jagden und Formen_, _Vers une symphonie fleuve III_, _Verwandlung 1-6_ or even in _ET LUX_. There are many instances in these pieces where blocks of sound are stacked in such a way so that, while one block is playing, the other is silent or sustaining a chord (e.g. _ET LUX_ from 31:30-32:30 is a simple example). Or you'll hear two simultaneous melodic lines often "hocketing" each other, preventing true silence from taking place. There is also a lot of layered pulsing in the dynamics in order to extend the lifespan of a (de)crescendo, and Rihm has a real gift for placing sforzando accents just where you, the listener, expect a climax to take place. The result of all these techniques is an organic, flowing, "vegetative" type of music (to use Rihm's word) that seems to take its own meandering course like a river, sprouting like a fungus into unforeseen directions and carving out new territory with a spontaneity whose inner logic is inaccessible to us listeners and yet feels so natural. Many of these "fleuve"-styled works should vaguely remind us of the flowing symphonic music from the late 19th and early 20th century, especially Mahler, Strauss, and Berg. But don't read an aesthetics based on the late 19th century flowing symphony as a retreat into conservatism. On the contrary, it's the reflection of a philosophically rigorous composer who is interested in demonstrating how ideas that were latent in the past can be exploited to a potential far beyond what past composers even imagined.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Looks fascinating! I think it will be great to have a non-traditional piece. Jagden und Formen is probably my favorite work we've done in the 1980-2000 Group so I think this should be another enlightening listening experience for me.


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## Merl

Jeez, that took me ages to read, calvinpv. Lol. After an explanation that long I simply must listen to this piece.


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## Roger Knox

annaw said:


> (For those interested, here's a musical analysis of Fauré's quartet: https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/154936/1/Childs.pdf)


Thank you very much for the analysis! It is an excellent piece of work, better than I could have done as an undergraduate. Concerning Fauré's music there is more to be said about chromaticism and about counterpoint in terms of adapted Schenkerian analysis (which was taught at the master's level where I was studying.) As the young, brilliant teacher of Fauré at the Niedermayer School in Paris, Saint-Saens was up-to-date on Liszt-Wagner innovations in chromatic harmony, which Fauré quickly took up _in his own way, not at all like the Germans',_ as a third resource along with modal and tonal harmony. The String Quartet is only chromatic in certain less predictable-sounding places, for example the development section of the first movement.

P.S. Re: "Just a music lover perspective." Despite, or because of, all this analysis, I still love the piece. Though with some flaws, it's still a great work by the ailing composer. _(O.K. no more Fauré)_


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## annaw

After having had an absolutely crazy morning, I decided to listen to the Rihm. It's an interesting work. The sound world is quiet and sounds somewhat minimalist to me. It's even a bit subdued I'd say but I was positively surprised how accessible it is. I think that the eight singers shift the focus of the piece quite strongly to the vocal side - it would be rather fascinating to hear it with a less dominant vocal section (or a more dominant quartet section) as, if I understood correctly, Rihm had originally intended. I didn't follow the text, but still noticed a somewhat unusual connection between the music and the text. The connection is surprisingly loose - even during _Dies irae_ you get an interestingly calm section with a few moments that are more intense. I must say one thing though. Maybe the work would be even more captivating and intense (like at 50:05) if it was shorter, but that's wholly my personal opinion. I liked the last part of the quartet most.

Overall, I think it's definitely a fascinating work. There were some compositional moves which I didn't enjoy too much but, in general, this has certainly widened my horizons.


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## Mandryka

annaw said:


> After having an absolutely crazy morning, I decided to listen to the Rihm. It's an interesting work. The sound world is quiet and sounds somewhat minimalist to me. It's even a bit subdued I'd say but I was positively surprised how accessible it is. I think that the eight singers shift the focus of the piece quite strongly to the vocal side - it would be rather fascinating to hear it with a less dominant vocal section (or a more dominant quartet section) as, if I understood correctly, Rihm had originally intended. I didn't follow the text, but still noticed a somewhat unusual connection between the music and the text. The connection is surprisingly loose - even during _Dies irae_ you get an interestingly calm section with a few moments that are more intense. I must say one thing though. Maybe the work would be even more captivating and intense (like at 50:05) if it was shorter, but that's wholly my personal opinion. I liked the last part of the quartet most.
> 
> Overall, I think it's definitely a fascinating work. There were some compositional moves which I didn't enjoy too much but, in general, this has certainly widened my horizons.


Yes I agree with what you say about the effect of doubling up the singers. Does van Nevel explain his decision in the booklet?

As far as I can see there are no recordings of Arditti/Hilliard doing it - which is a shame, but they obviously chose not to record it or to let bootlegs circulate. I wonder why.

It's strange that this piece has been picked up by a couple of early music ensembles and not by others.

Is this in some interesting way related to the Brahms requiem?

What is the text?

The Minguet obviously have a close relationship with Rihm, I enjoyed their playing here more than in their other studio recordings of the late quartets. But they're no Arditti. So far I have yet to get my head round the vocal contribution - not easy to do in the absence of a libretto!


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## calvinpv

*ET LUX libretto*

The majority of the libretto is taken from the Introit, Offertory, Libera me, and Lacrimosa of the Requiem Mass, which I believe all belong to the proper of the Mass. The translations below are taken from wikipedia -- don't crucify me if they're wrong, as I don't know any Latin or anything about the Christian liturgy. The liner notes (plus an interview of Rihm I saw on youtube) give the impression that Rihm jumbles up the "text modules" into whatever order they came to his mind, but actually, they follow reasonably well the order of the Mass.

The text below that's in brackets [] is text from the Introit, Offertory, Libera me, Lacrimosa that _is not_ in the work, that Rihm left out. I'm including it here for completion.

Many words are repeated and appear where they otherwise wouldn't appear in the liturgy. I mark them with *Repeat*.

*Introit*
Requiem aeternam (eternal rest)
dona eis, [Domine] (give unto them, [O Lord])
et lux perpetua (and … perpetual light)
luceat eis (shine upon them)
te decet hymnus, [Deus] (a hymn, [O God], becometh Thee)
[in] Sion ([in] Zion)
[et] tibi reddetur votum ([and] a vow shall be paid to Thee)
[in] Ierusalem ([in] Jerusalem)
exaudi orationem meam (hear my prayer)

requiem aeternam (eternal rest)
dona eis (give unto them)
Domine (O Lord)
et lux (and … light)
perpetua (perpetual)
luceat (… let … shine upon)
eis (them)

*Repeat*
et lux (and light)

*Introit (this would normally be in the blank space above in the Introit section)*
ad te (… to Thee)
omnis caro veniet (all flesh shall come …)

*Offertory*
[Domine lesu Christe, Rex gloriae] ([Lord Jesus Christ, King of glory])
libera (deliver)
animas omnium [fidelium] defunctorum (the souls of all the [faithful] departed)

*Repeat*
libera (deliver)

*Offertory*
de poenis inferni (from the pains of hell)

*Repeat*
libera (deliver)
animas (the souls)

*Offertory*
[et] de profundo lacu ([and] from the bottomless pit)
libera eas (deliver them)
de ore leonis (from the lion's mouth)
ne absorbeat eas (that … swallow them not up)
tartarus (… hell …)
ne cadant (that they fall not)
in obscurum (into darkness)
[sed signifier sanctus Michael] ([but let the standard-bearer holy Michael])
[repraesentet eas in lucem sanctam] ([lead them into that holy light])
[Quam olim Abrahae promisisti, et semini eius] ([Which Thou didst promise of old to Abraham and to his seed])
[Hostias et preces tibi, Domine,] ([We offer to Thee, O Lord,])
[laudis offerimus] ([sacrifices and prayers])
[tu suscipe pro animabus illis,] ([do Thou receive them in behalf of those souls])
[Quarum hodie memoriam facimus] ([of whom we make memorial this day])
[fac eas, Domine,] ([Grant them, O Lord,])
de morte transire (to pass from death)
ad vitam (to life)
[Quam olim Abrahae promisisti, et semini eius] ([Which Thou didst promise of ol to Abraham and to his seed])

*Repeat*
et lux perpetua (and … perpetual light)
luceat eis (… let … shine upon them)

*Libera me*
libera me, [Domine,] (deliver me, [O Lord,])
de morte aeterna (from death eternal)
in die illa tremenda (on that awful day)
quando coeli movendi sunt (when the heavens … shall be moved)
et terra (… and the earth …)

*Repeat*
terrae (earth)
libera (deliver)
libera me (deliver me)

*Libera me*
[Dum veneris iudicare] saeculum per ignem ([When Thou shalt come to judge] the world by fire)
tremens factus (… made to tremble)
sum (… am …)
ego (I …)

*Repeat*
tremens factus (… made to tremble)
ego sum (I am)

*Libera me*
et timeo (and I fear)
[dum discussion venerit, atque ventura ira] ([till the judgment be upon us, and the coming wrath])
[quando coeli movendi sunt et terra] ([when the heavens and the earth shall be moved])
dies illa (that day)
[dies irae, calamitatis et miseriae] ([day of wrath, calamity and misery])
dies magna (great day)
et amara valde (and exceeding bitterness)
[Dum veneris iudicare saeculum per ignem] ([When Thou shalt come to judge the world by fire])
[Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine: et lux perpetua luceat eis] ([Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them])

*Lacrimosa*
Lacrimosa (Full of tears)
dies illa (will be that day)
qua resurget (when … shall rise)
ex favilla (… from the ashes …)
[Judicandus] homo reus (the guilty man [to be judged])
[Pie Jesu Domine, Dona eis requiem. Amen.] ([Merciful Lord Jesus, Grant them eternal rest. Amen.])

*Repeat*
et lux (and light)
perpetua (perpetual)
luceat (let … shine upon)
requiem aeternam (eternal rest)
dona eis (give unto them)
et lux (and light)
perpetua (perpetual)
luceat (let … shine upon)
libera (deliver)
me (me)
lux (light)
perpetua (perpetual)
libera (deliver)
et lux (and light)


----------



## Merl

I don't know what I really expected on playing this, maybe some sort of Arvo Part-esque work, but this single movement requiem isn't Part. It occupies a soundworld of its own. Listening last night, I was struck by the work's sparseness but found that as it went on things weren't developing as I'd expected. I was hoping for greater use of different string effects to heighten tension so, for me, it doesn't develop a sense of intimacy (maybe that effect is intentional) . Perhaps this is to do with the inbalance of singers to quartet so it becomes less of a quartet with singers and more of singers with a background quartet. It's haunting but I didn't feel emotionally connected to it (as I do with some Part works). At an hour it's a difficult listen and although this would no doubt captivate in a live situation (watching the interplay / listening to how the performers time their entrances would be fascinating to say the least) it's length works against it on a recording. Perhaps I was expecting more development. I don't know. Where the piece changes in tone and tempo, at the half-hour mark, I think this may have worked better earlier and this shift in phrasing, volume and tempo would have broken up the piece more effectively if the work was more condensed. One thing is certain, the recording is intensely vivid (it nearly blew my eardrums at one point) and voices / strings are captured very well. Whatever, it's good to visit such a challenging piece and broaden my musical horizons. Thanks.


----------



## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> Yes I agree with what you say about the effect of doubling up the singers. Does van Nevel explain his decision in the booklet?


I also agree that eight voices drowns out the SQ a little too much. But it also needs to be said that the strings are playing with mutes much of the time. I think what Rihm is trying to do here with the strings is get them to dissolve the voices just enough so that they sound ephemeral and apparition-like. There's a lot of echoing of passages between instrumental and vocal parts, thereby blurring the line between the two. It would be a mistake to have the strings stand out because then the piece would sound a bit too "contrapuntal", if that makes sense. I shouldn't be hearing 8 distinct voices.

This isn't supposed to be a requiem but the memory of a requiem, a stream of consciousness-like search for what a requiem is supposed to be about. And of course, our memories are never as vibrant and vivid as the real thing.



> As far as I can see there are no recordings of Arditti/Hilliard doing it - which is a shame, but they obviously chose not to record it or to let bootlegs circulate. I wonder why.
> 
> It's strange that this piece has been picked up by a couple of early music ensembles and not by others.
> 
> Is this in some interesting way related to the Brahms requiem?


In the part of the liner notes I didn't include, it talks about Rihm's work "Das Lesen der Schrift", which is a set of pieces that are to be inserted between the movements of the German Requiem. This was written a few years before ET LUX, so no doubt the German Requiem was on his mind. But I'm not sure to what extent it appears in ET LUX.



> What is the text?


See my above post.



> The Minguet obviously have a close relationship with Rihm, I enjoyed their playing here more than in their other studio recordings of the late quartets. But they're no Arditti. So far I have yet to get my head round the vocal contribution - not easy to do in the absence of a libretto!


I don't know what their relationship is to Rihm, but I'll just say that I think the Minguet would be a better ensemble for this work than the Arditti. The Arditti would probably have a more aggressive, muscular, sinewy interpretation, which would work elsewhere, but in a work about death/peace/stillness/the afterlife/etc., it would be a bit much.


----------



## Mandryka

calvinpv said:


> This isn't supposed to be a requiem but the memory of a requiem, a stream of consciousness-like search for what a requiem is supposed to be about. And of course, our memories are never as vibrant and vivid as the real thing.
> 
> .


That's an interesting couple of ideas (memory, search)

Proust would have not agreed that our memories cannot be as vivid as the original, on the contrary.

Pogorelich's distinctive interpretation of Ravel's Valses nobles et sentimentales has always seemed to me like a study in memory.


----------



## newyorkconversation

Rihm also has a number of compositions solely for string quartet (ie without voices ("senza voci"?)), which I hadn't heard before but am now listening to with interest


----------



## Knorf

In fact, Wolfgang Rihm has _thirteen_ string quattets.


----------



## Josquin13

Sorry, I'm a bit behind. To finish up from last week,

I find there is more of a sense of intimacy & personal utterance in Faure's quartet than in other chamber works by him, especially in the 2nd movement. I didn't find the quartet to be an entirely comfortable experience, nor music simply awash with pleasant impressionist colors. There are early modernist elements in this quartet, & more so than in any other work by Faure that comes to mind. Yet the old Faure, the man that composed those incredibly beautiful 2 piano quartets & quintets is present at times, too.

& by early modern, I mean that it is more along the lines of a work by Charles Koechlin (one of Faure's students) or perhaps Guy Ropartz, rather than Messiaen, Jolivet, or Dutilleux. It's still largely a romantic work (& predominantly so with some interpretations). Yet, I find a certain starkness in the music, as well, which can be pervasive at times. Apparently, with this quartet Faure had become influenced by the changing times in music and the new, darker century, which included the horrors of World War I. Yet he still remained Faure.

I listened to the following three recordings this week,

--Castilian Quartet, live on You Tube: 



--Amati Quartet: 



--Quatour Via Nova: 




I thought Quatour Via Nova brought out the intimacy of the 2nd movement most effectively. Their performance also sounded more French to me than the others, and certainly more so than the Castilian Quartet, who bring out the modern elements in this quartet more clearly.

I can remember a time back in the 1980s when this quartet was something of a secret. Not many people knew about it. The only recordings in the catalogue were by Quatour Parrenin on French EMI, Quatour Via Nova on Erato--which were both imports, and the Guarneri Quartet, which had gone out of print. That situation has changed, fortunately.

I've been flirting with buying the Jean Hubeau/Quatour Via Nova Erato set for decades now, first on LP and then on CD. Maybe I'll finally take the plunge: https://www.amazon.com/Chamber-Music-Faure/dp/B000001Z3I. I'd also like to hear the Auryn Quartet recording that Merl is keen on, and the Dante Quartet. Plus, I should dig out my Parrenin and Ysaye Quartet recordings, as well. (I also own the Amati recording on Divox.)

As for the Guarneri Quartet, I've never heard them in this quartet. However, my expectation would be that their approach or style of playing is a bit too slick and smooth for the intimacy of this music...?

I hadn't sat down and listened to this quartet in a long time, so thanks, newyorkconversation.


----------



## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> I find there is more of a sense of intimacy & personal utterance in Faure's quartet than in other chamber works by him, especially in the 2nd movement. I didn't find the quartet to be an entirely comfortable experience, nor music simply awash with pleasant impressionist colors. There are early modernist elements in this quartet, & more so than in any other work by Faure that comes to mind. Yet the old Faure, the man that composed those incredibly beautiful 2 piano quartets & quintets is present at times, too. ...
> 
> As for the Guarneri Quartet, I've never heard them in this quartet. However, my expectation would be that their approach or style of playing is a bit too slick and smooth for the intimacy of this music...?


I think your comments are right on. When you mention modernist elements I think also about checking out Fauré's late Piano Trio, in which I played piano a long time ago at a summer academy coached by American pianist Jerome Lowenthal. He had studied with Cortot and understood interpretive aspects in this music well. Our violinist was good at the fine, restrained nuances of this style and we had a great time with this piece. Like the quartet, it has a lean sound and advanced harmonic features. I've always loved Arnold Steinhardt's playing in the Guarneri, and in the Fauré Quartet he's really good at violin nuances that accord with a work's harmony. You may find their recording a bit too smooth and rich, but they do capture light and shade and I think Merl's comments in post #1531 are very apt.


----------



## Mandryka

Roger Knox said:


> I think your comments are right on. When you mention modernist elements I think also about checking out Fauré's late Piano Trio, in which I played piano a long time ago at a summer academy coached by American pianist Jerome Lowenthal. He had studied with Cortot and understood interpretive aspects in this music well. Our violinist was good at the fine, restrained nuances of this style and we had a great time with this piece. Like the quartet, it has a lean sound and advanced harmonic features. I've always loved Arnold Steinhardt's playing in the Guarneri, and in the Fauré Quartet he's really good at violin nuances that accord with a work's harmony. You may find their recording a bit too smooth and rich, but they do capture light and shade and I think Merl's comments in post #1531 are very apt.


The one I like besides the second quartet is the second violin sonata and maybe the op 117 cello sonata.

Did Lowenthal (who's a pianist I very much like) ever say what Cortot thought of Fauré? It's interesting that Cortot put so little Fauré on record, though he may have played the music of course. There's a chapter on Fauré in Cortot's book on French music but from memory it's only about the earlier pieces.


----------



## Merl

I have very little of Fauré's works apart from this quartet but I'll definitely be exploring more of his work in the near future. Problem is, you buggers keep posting SQs that I really like so I'm constantly behind in my listening. You're also costing me a fortune. I blame you all. Damn you TCers.


----------



## Josquin13

Roger Knox writes, "When you mention modernist elements I think also about checking out Fauré's late Piano Trio, in which I played piano a long time ago at a summer academy coached by American pianist Jerome Lowenthal. He had studied with Cortot and understood interpretive aspects in this music well."

I'll definitely give a listen to Faure's Piano Trio. Thanks for your suggestion. As with the quartet, I haven't listened to the Piano Trio, or Faure's Cello Sonata or the Violin Sonata No. 2 for that matter (which Mandryka mentions) in a long time.

That's interesting that you worked with Jerome Lowenthal. I hadn't closely associated Cortot to Faure, but I now see that is an oversight on my part. Before, I had tended to think of Marguerite Long, Louis Diémer, Magda Tagliaferro, Vlado Perlemuter (and of course his pupils Charles Koechlin, Nadia Boulanger, and Jean Roger-Ducasse) as being more closely connected to Faure and his music. But I now see that there are recordings of Faure's piano music by Cortot as early as the 1920s, along with a recording of the Berceuse with violinist Jacques Thibaud from 1931 (posted on You Tube).

In looking over Faure's dedications, curiously, the majority of his piano works were dedicated to women, & specifically to the wives and daughters of his male friends. For example, I don't recall any piano work being dedicated to Cortot and yet the Nocturne No. 9 from 1908 is dedicated to Cortot's wife, Clotilde Bréal. So perhaps Faure was more comfortable around women, or the dedications were his way of pleasing his male friends?

If I may, in answer to Mandryka's question, Cortot was generally a great admirer of Faure's piano works. For instance, he made a transcription of Faure's piano Impromptu for the harp. He also said of the Nocturne No. 6 that "There are few pages in all music comparable to these" (taken from Wikipedia, & the source appears to be Aaron Copland). At first, I wondered if Faure's piano music might have been too difficult for Cortot?, considering that even Franz Liszt found them difficult to play. But then I read on Wikipedia that Faure's piano music wasn't largely recorded until the 1950s! And by that time it was likely too difficult for Cortot, considering that his playing had noticeably declined by 1950s.

I would have liked for Magda Tagliaferro to have recorded more of Faure's piano music, considering that she once toured the "Dolly Suite" with Faure: 



. (& I'm a huge fan of Tagliaferro's playing, especially in the French repertory.) But fortunately, I see Marquerite Long did record some of Faure's piano works as early as the 1930s: 



. Plus, there's the famous historical recording of Long and Trio Pasquier playing Faure's Piano Quartet No. 1: 



.

Now onto Wolfgang Rihm...

P.S. Merl, I share your frustration. This (damn) thread is costing me a lot of money too! But it's been worth it, of course.


----------



## Roger Knox

Mandryka said:


> Did Lowenthal (who's a pianist I very much like) ever say what Cortot thought of Fauré? It's interesting that Cortot put so little Fauré on record, though he may have played the music of course. There's a chapter on Fauré in Cortot's book on French music but from memory it's only about the earlier pieces.


No Lowenthal never spoke about Cortot, it was another person who told us about the connection. Of course Cortot was very controversial politically. But I liked Jerome Lowenthal, he was good to us and put us on one of the weekly concerts at the Music Academy of the West.


----------



## Roger Knox

Josquin13 said:


> So perhaps Faure was more comfortable around women, or the dedications were his way of pleasing his male friends? ... At first, I wondered if Faure's piano music might have been too difficult for Cortot?, considering that even Franz Liszt found them difficult to play. But then I read on Wikipedia that Faure's piano music wasn't largely recorded until the 1950s! And by that time it was likely too difficult for Cortot, considering that his playing had noticeably declined by 1950s


Thanks, Josquin13 for all this great information! I really appreciate it, and feel guilty about the possibility of disillusioning you. But, in the interest of truth: (1) I have read that Cortot just didn't practice enough; he played Chopin Etudes so he could have played Faure; (2) re your first question, I'm afraid Faure was ... too comfortable around women.


----------



## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> That's an interesting couple of ideas (memory, search)
> 
> Proust would have not agreed that our memories cannot be as vivid as the original, on the contrary.
> 
> Pogorelich's distinctive interpretation of Ravel's Valses nobles et sentimentales has always seemed to me like a study in memory.


Those ideas should be reminiscent of "hunting for forms" in Jagden und Formen. Here, Rihm is searching for the "form" of a Requiem, on each phrase of the liturgy trying out different styles of music drawn from his memory to see what succeeds, what doesn't ("memories" being his personal memories of having sung in choirs as a kid, his encyclopedic knowledge of music and musical history especially about the Requiem as a genre, his personal tastes of what he likes and doesn't like, etc). Of course, he doesn't succeed in finding the form: cycling through one idiom after another may give the listener a sense of immersion into a unified sound world from moment to moment, but once the listener steps back and reflects after the work ends, ET LUX is a pretty jumbled work (not necessarily a bad thing, mind you).

But then again, maybe he does find the form. Remember, Rihm says about Jagden und Formen that "the form is the hunt itself", or something to that effect. I think he would say exact same thing here (or perhaps "the memory is the search itself'). The consequence of saying this for Jagden und Formen is that that work becomes classified as a work in open form, like Boulez's "work in progress". Maybe we should wonder about the same thing here. ET LUX certainly doesn't end with any sense of closure: I can easily imagine this work being extended for another 10 hours if Rihm wanted to (but I doubt he would).

Saying "the form is the hunt itself" I think is particularly apt for ET LUX, because, though Rihm may have not found a so-called standard form of the Requiem, Rihm would probably retort "Well, neither has any other composer of the Requiem. The history of the Requiem genre is also the history of a search for a final Requiem form, with each composer trying to improve or modify what came before". And in a certain sense, he would be right in saying this. Ockeghem, Mozart, Fauré, Ligeti all have different requiems. Whose Requiem is closest to being the right one?


----------



## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> Roger Knox writes, "When you mention modernist elements I think also about checking out Fauré's late Piano Trio, in which I played piano a long time ago at a summer academy coached by American pianist Jerome Lowenthal. He had studied with Cortot and understood interpretive aspects in this music well."
> 
> I'll definitely give a listen to Faure's Piano Trio. Thanks for your suggestion. As with the quartet, I haven't listened to the Piano Trio, or Faure's Cello Sonata or the Violin Sonata No. 2 for that matter (which Mandryka mentions) in a long time.
> 
> That's interesting that you worked with Jerome Lowenthal. I hadn't closely associated Cortot to Faure, but I now see that is an oversight on my part. Before, I had tended to think of Marguerite Long, Louis Diémer, Magda Tagliaferro, Vlado Perlemuter (and of course his pupils Charles Koechlin, Nadia Boulanger, and Jean Roger-Ducasse) as being more closely connected to Faure and his music. But I now see that there are recordings of Faure's piano music by Cortot as early as the 1920s, along with a recording of the Berceuse with violinist Jacques Thibaud from 1931 (posted on You Tube).
> 
> In looking over Faure's dedications, curiously, the majority of his piano works were dedicated to women, & specifically to the wives and daughters of his male friends. For example, I don't recall any piano work being dedicated to Cortot and yet the Nocturne No. 9 from 1908 is dedicated to Cortot's wife, Clotilde Bréal. So perhaps Faure was more comfortable around women, or the dedications were his way of pleasing his male friends?
> 
> If I may, in answer to Mandryka's question, Cortot was generally a great admirer of Faure's piano works. For instance, he made a transcription of Faure's piano Impromptu for the harp. He also said of the Nocturne No. 6 that "There are few pages in all music comparable to these" (taken from Wikipedia, & the source appears to be Aaron Copland). At first, I wondered if Faure's piano music might have been too difficult for Cortot?, considering that even Franz Liszt found them difficult to play. But then I read on Wikipedia that Faure's piano music wasn't largely recorded until the 1950s! And by that time it was likely too difficult for Cortot, considering that his playing had noticeably declined by 1950s.
> 
> I would have liked for Magda Tagliaferro to have recorded more of Faure's piano music, considering that she once toured the "Dolly Suite" with Faure:
> 
> 
> 
> . (& I'm a huge fan of Tagliaferro's playing, especially in the French repertory.) But fortunately, I see Marquerite Long did record some of Faure's piano works as early as the 1930s:
> 
> 
> 
> . Plus, there's the famous historical recording of Long and Trio Pasquier playing Faure's Piano Quartet No. 1:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Now onto Wolfgang Rihm...
> 
> P.S. Merl, I share your frustration. This (damn) thread is costing me a lot of money too! But it's been worth it, of course.


And apparently Cortot created the 7th and 9th nocturnes. Here's a nice bit of Faure


----------



## SearsPoncho

The composer's thoughts...


----------



## Mandryka

Et Lux

Unexpected and destabilising unpitched sound at 15.56 - a last gasp? And another example of noise around the 22m mark. 

A couple of minutes of music for strings alone heralded by some electric pizzicatos, sparse music, around 24 mins. This pizzicato gesture recur afterwards, as if they mean something. 

The music immediately afterward the last gasp reminds me of Achilles’ War-cry in Tippet’s King Priam. The quartet writing reminiscent of Janacek’s second quartet sometimes. Mahler 8. Jonathan Harvey (acoustic) 

Overall the feeling is of uncomfortableness and groping, difficulty going on. Agony. The strings and voices reconciled only very briefly. Fluid and complex music, simultaneously continuous and discontinuous, consonant and dissonant. Passages which are luminous and passages obscure. Is the quartet like a chorus in a Greek tragedy? The quartet music is anguished, intense. 

(Stopped about 20 minutes before the end, door bell rang.)


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## Mandryka

Two related works probably -- Astralis -- part of the Über die Linie cycle -- and I wonder if Et Lux isn't also part of the same series at least de facto if not de jure.






And Sieben Passions-Texte






Et Lux introduces something a bit spikier maybe.


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## SearsPoncho

The first six notes of this week's work, Rihm's Et Lux, sounded like Shostakovich. I thought it was going in that direction. Anyone else well-versed in Shostakovich's oevre hear that in those first six notes?


----------



## Iota

Having heard it once, I found Rihm's Et Lux an interesting listen. It felt a very personal take on words which one often hears in more formal settings, and the way it hovered between tonality and non-tonality seemed an often effective way of expressing different shades of intensity and feeling to them.

Overall the experience was a thought-provoking one, though like others I wasn't quite sure why the work was as long as it was, but perhaps with more than an initial hearing that would change. I found the last twenty minutes or so the most involving, perhaps the feelings felt closer to the surface there, or perhaps it was just the way I was listening. 

Glad to have heard the piece anyway.


----------



## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> Et Lux
> 
> Unexpected and destabilising unpitched sound at 15.56 - a last gasp? And another example of noise around the 22m mark.


Right before that gasp at 15:56, the voices sing "libera animas omnium fidelium defuntorum de poenis inferni" (deliver the souls of all the faithful departed from the pains of hell). That gasp is as if the voices were getting released from their pain. But of course, right afterwards at 16:43, the voices scream in agony.

And before the 22 min mark, the voices sing "de morte transire ad vitam" (to pass from death to that life). But at 22 min mark, the strings seem to do the opposite: a Romantic-sounding melody climbs upwards in the SQ (a symbol of life?), but then collapses into un-pitched noise (a symbol of death?).


----------



## calvinpv

SearsPoncho said:


> The first six notes of this week's work, Rihm's Et Lux, sounded like Shostakovich. I thought it was going in that direction. Anyone else well-versed in Shostakovich's oevre hear that in those first six notes?


I don't know Shostakovich's music too well, but now that you mention it, Shostakovich seems to like dropping a melody or melodic fragment a semitone at a time, which is what Rihm does in the last two of those first six notes. But it could be a coincidence.

One thing I do hear in the opening is that the first couple sets of downward moving chords in the voices sound like the opening of Gesualdo's madrigal "Moro, lasso, al mio duolo" (I hear this similarity only because one of the liner notes mentioned Gesualdo, and so I checked out some of his music).


----------



## Mandryka

Well I’ve still not managed to get all the way to the end of this thing, not the fault of the music, it’s just that I have other things on to distract me. But what I can say confidently is that Et Lux really does repay repeated listening - and that’s a sign of a very fine piece of music IMO.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have not had the time to listen to the Rihm yet, but I will definitely do so tomorrow. In the meantime, here's the schedule of nominators. 20centrfuge and Iota, could either of you be ready for a pick this week?

20centrfuge
Iota
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho


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## Iota

Ah okay, I hadn't realised it was so soon! But will have a ponder and come up with something today or tomorrow unless 20centrfuge turns up and wants to kick off.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I have not had the time to listen to the Rihm yet,


Extraordinary that we don't have the time for an hour long piece of music, a challenging unpredictable piece of music. I'm the same, despite glimpsing that it's an interesting stimulating work. And that in a locked down world, and people who are interested enough in the form to participate in a forum like this. It says something about our natures today I think.


----------



## annaw

....................


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

This is music that really grips you by the throat. Just when you think it's all getting a bit repetitive, he'll change ideas and keep you hooked. Others have pointed out these influences but to me the general soundworld sounds like a combination of Shostakovich, Gesualdo, and Pärt. A haunting, thought-provoking piece that I will want to revisit in the future; worthy to stand with the greatest Requiems ever written. Thanks for the nomination, Calvin


----------



## Iota

Okay, have decided to go for *Ives String Quartet No.2*.

A very ad hoc intro I'm afraid, but a work I feel very drawn to and indeed often moved by, the last climax before the quiet close to the work for example, is an extraordinary moment, raw, transcendent and unforgettably intense to my ears.

I find Ives a fascinating composer, his music feels driven by a necessity to be composed, and often seems to follow its own inner compulsions as naturally/chaotically/unpredictably as a stream finding its way down a mountain. And yet it's underpinned by an immense skill and enquiring vision, and a very sincere voice I feel. It seems fair to describe him as a genuine maverick.

Many of these qualities are apparent in the quartet, including the Ivesian hallmarks of sudden, compulsive appearances of quotes from elsewhere. It has three movements:

1. Discussions

2. Arguments

3. The Call of the Mountains

Anyway, there's a good and far more articulate blow by blow account of it than my ramblings on Wiki.

I realise I've only ever listened to the Schumann Quartet account of it (Ars Produktion), which I like very much. That will change this week, but here are the Emerson Quartet to get you going, should you wish.

*1. Discussions*





*
2. Arguments
*





*3. The Call of the Mountains*






I hope you enjoy it/get something from it. Sorry for the stream of consciousness intro, it's something of a mountain stream here too at the mo.


----------



## Knorf

Awesome choice! I love this quartet!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I love Ives but haven't heard this. Looking forward to it! I think his music captures the spirit of America like no other composer.


----------



## Merl

I have the Emersons recording (an ex-library disc) but I rarely play this quartet, tbh. Time for a revisit. Nice pick.

The versions I could find were:

Emerson
Juiliiard
Lydian
Blair
Schumann Quartet
Mondriaan
Walden
Leipziger
Concord


----------



## Josquin13

I've finally managed to listen to Wolfgang Rihm's Et Lux (now twice). It's a fascinating work. Calvinpv suggestion of the possible influence of a madrigal by Carlos Gesualdo makes a lot of sense (& I see that Allegro Con Brio agrees). I definitely hear aspects of Gesualdo at times. I also hear the strong influence of Karlheinz Stockhausen (such as with Stimmung: 



), along with Gyorgy Ligeti, Arvo Pärt, and perhaps to a lesser degree John Tavener. But I also agree with Merl that Rihm has made this work his own.

I've been meaning to explore Rihm's music in greater depth for some time now, and Et Lux may serve as the catalyst to finally get me to do so. I agree it's a masterpiece, and am grateful for the introduction. So, thanks, Calvinpv, for an inspired choice.


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I love Ives but haven't heard this. Looking forward to it!


I think it was one of Ives' favourites, for what that's worth. Cf. for example the quote on the linked Wiki article '_In his Memos, Ives referred to the quartet as "one of the best things I have."_ '


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## annaw

I have listened to very little Ives but I just listened to Emerson's recording and I liked it, although I need to listen to it more to understand its structure and sound world better. Nice pick!

By the way, Ives's annotations are quite brilliant :lol:. Largo sweetota, Allegro con con Conny Mack, Andante con scratchy, Allegro con fistiswatto, to name a few.


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## Iota

annaw said:


> By the way, Ives's annotations are quite brilliant :lol:. Largo sweetota, Allegro con con Conny Mack, Andante con scratchy, Allegro con fistiswatto, to name a few.


Indeed, nothing like saying what you mean! :lol: And actually I'm sure they're also effective!


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## Merl

I've listened to the *Emerson* Quartet's Ives, this morning and the *Schumann quartet* upon returning home. I enjoyed both but of the two I preferred the Schumann Quartet's very bold, and forceful manner here. It's a really clearly articulated and strong performance. Whilst the Emersons are forthright the Schumann's are aggressive and it certainly works veey well in this quartet. Recorded sound on both is very good but the Schumann performance has greater presence. A terrific account.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I've listened to the *Emerson* Quartet's Ives, this morning and the *Schumann quartet* upon returning home. I enjoyed both but of the two I preferred the Schumann Quartet's very bold, and forceful manner here. It's a really clearly articulated and strong performance. Whilst the Emersons are forthright the Schumann's are aggressive and it certainly works veey well in this quartet. Recorded sound on both is very good but the Schumann performance has greater presence. A terrific account.


Hmm, now I need to give that Schumann quartet recording a listen because, so far, I think Emerson is my favourite. They are swift, sleek, and very precise. They emphasise the modern quality of the quartet and manage to bring out the "four voices" rather successfully. Then I listened to Leipzigers who play it in a somewhat Romantic idiom. Their playing is a lot heavier and brooding, but I love how they play the ending of the second movement and the climaxes of the last one. It's a fluid and blended legato take and I guess a somewhat controversial one because it might feel a bit out of place in such a relatively modern-sounding quartet. Lydians are poetic and aesthetically pleasing. Their last movement is superb. I'm still not quite sure what to think of Lydians, though, so I'm off to sample and listen to it again.

Btw, I love how Ives quotes the main motif of _An die Freude_ in the end of the second movement . This quartet is really growing on me the more I listen to it and I think Ives's use of atonality is rather genius. It's at times even humorous (particularly in the second movement, which is my favourite).


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## SearsPoncho

Some random thoughts on the Ives Quartet:

1) Does anyone else clearly hear one of the "voices" play Dixie in the 1st movement?
2) As with many other things, Ives is again prescient in anticipating where the string quartet would go in the 20th century. Well, it's not really anticipating anything - he just did it. 
3) The four unique personalities interacting, conversing and reacting as an actual dialog is, I believe, something which other 20th century composers would emulate, although I'm not sure how familiar they were with Ives. I heard future Bartok, Berg, and even Carter and Lutoslawski, among others, in this music. 
4) Ives was a trailblazer. Unfortunately, I don't know if his "time will come," as it did with Mahler.


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## Knorf

SearsPoncho said:


> Some random thoughts on the Ives Quartet:
> 
> 1) Does anyone else clearly hear one of the "voices" play Dixie in the 1st movement?
> 2) As with many other things, Ives is again prescient in anticipating where the string quartet would go in the 20th century. Well, it's not really anticipating anything - he just did it.
> 3) The four unique personalities interacting, conversing and reacting as an actual dialog is, I believe, something which other 20th century composers would emulate, although I'm not sure how familiar they were with Ives. I heard future Bartok, Berg, and even Carter and Lutoslawski, among others, in this music.
> 4) Ives was a trailblazer. Unfortunately, I don't know if his "time will come," as it did with Mahler.


1. Yep.
2. Definitely!
3. Yep. Carter for sure knew Ives's music quite well and was influenced by it. That's a larger conversation.
4. If I'm honest, Ives probably can't really be fairly compared to Mahler, but wider recognition of his music over the pond would certainly be reasonable to hope for.


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## SearsPoncho

...and the Ode To Joy theme towards the end of the second movement.


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## Iota

SearsPoncho said:


> Ives was a trailblazer. Unfortunately, I don't know if his "time will come," as it did with Mahler.


'Trailblazer' .. absolutely! I was always mystified by how his extraordinarily innovative and unique voice seemed to have been made so little of. It would normally seem something musical establishments might even go overboard with out of a sense of national pride etc. 
It maybe worth mentioning that he'd been shunned by the American establishment for a large part of his life when he was alive, and perhaps his reputation has never quite recovered from that.

On the subject of Mahler, I do think maybe there's a kind of similarity between the way Landlers he'd heard as a child etc. make appearances in Mahler's music, and the way Ives includes music he'd grown up hearing all around him in his own scores. 
Such references to one's formative years often come packed an with emotional punch/significance, and in Ives' case I love how he uses those quotes to such an incredible variety of expressive purposes across his entire oeuvre.


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## starthrower

Allegro, I'm still lurking here even though I haven't commented. I have a quartet in mind so lemme know when my turn comes around. Thanks!


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## Merl

Right, I've played through 3 more. The* Juilliard's *mid 60s recording is often used as a reference here and it's not surprising really. They are superlative. In their hands the whole quartet makes logical sense and feels like a satisfying whole. Their balance and interplay is masterly and even by today's standards the recorded sound is absolutely superb. It's reference for a reason. Next, I dipped into the *Blair* Quartet's Naxos disc. Production and ensemble is very good and this is a fine performance but the Blair's softer-edged performance, whilst perfectly valid and exquisitely played, doesn't convince me as much as the Juilliard, Emerson and Schumann recordings, as good as it is. It's still a fine disc but I prefer others here. My final one, this morning, was the rather harsh *Lydian* disc. Nothing wrong with the recording but the Lydians aren't as cohesive in ensemble as the the rest. Their second movement argument doesn't to and fro organically like the Juilliard's. Rather than a heated exchange, it reminds me of a couple of people shouting over each other. It just doesn't fit well, for me and I found this a difficult one to like. I'll come back to it but it didn't impress on initial listen, at all.


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## Iota

Merl's Juilliard top pick was unfortunately not on my streaming site, so I went for the Emerson instead, and was very struck by the difference from the Schumann Quartet, the only one I know. 
I agree with annaw's comment that they emphasise the modern aspect of the quartet, and with Merl's 'forthright' description above. They sound far more dispassionate in their approach to almost every aspect of the music, and end up shining a light on its inherent and uncompromising oddness. 

For me this is music is primarily born out of a desire to express something as directly/barely as possible, rather than necessarily to please, and I found the difference between the Schumann's more emotional approach and the Emerson's more cerebral one was a stark and fascinating one. I still prefer the Schumann, find I can feel the heat of blood in its veins more, and feel more deeply engaged, but am intrigued also by what the Emerson bring out in the music and will certainly be listening again with great interest.


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## Merl

Iota said:


> Merl's Juilliard top pick was unfortunately not on my streaming site, so I went for the Emerson instead, and was very struck by the difference from the Schumann Quartet, the only one I know.
> I agree with annaw's comment that they emphasise the modern aspect of the quartet, and with Merl's 'forthright' description above. They sound far more dispassionate in their approach to almost every aspect of the music, and end up shining a light on its inherent and uncompromising oddness.
> 
> For me this is music is primarily born out of a desire to express something as directly/barely as possible, rather than necessarily to please, and I found the difference between the Schumann's more emotional approach and the Emerson's more cerebral one was a stark and fascinating one. I still prefer the Schumann, find I can feel the heat of blood in its veins more, and feel more deeply engaged, but am intrigued also by what the Emerson bring out in the music and will certainly be listening again with great interest.


Yeah, theres been quite a lot of difference between recordings. Interpretively the Blairs, for example, are softer in their approach with the Juilliards somewhere in the middle for me and the Schumann quartet at the harsher end of the spectrum. However, that really doesnt bother me as long as theres a cohesiveness in the recording. Thats why the Lydian recording didnt resonate with me. As a whole it felt disjointed and forced. Btw, i didnt say the Juilliard was my fave up to now i just said it was a reference. There may be something that trumps it.


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## Iota

Merl said:


> Btw, i didnt say the Juilliard was my fave up to now i just said it was a reference. There may be something that trumps it.


Oops, apologies. Unable to edit my post apparently now I'm afraid.

Will have a further look around for the Juilliard anyway I think.


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## Rangstrom

I listened to the Emerson on a DG CD and the Concord on a Nonesuch LP. The Emerson is a good as cited here numerous times, but I slightly prefer the Concord recording. The sound is a bit warmer and gives more focus to the bottom. The Concord takes just over a minute longer in the first movement to great advantage. Less chaos and more opportunity to relish the allusions, although I imagine many welcome the chaos.

I'm happy with both.


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## Merl

Two unsuccessful Ives recordings today for different reasons. The *Walden* Quartet's recording is a wretched affair and I found the harshly congested sound insufferable. Sorry but I'm not wasting time on something that sounds that bad. The *Leipzigers* are a quartet I have a lot of time for but this isn't their finest moment. It's a largely underplayed and far too polite recording. It's beautifully performed (as always with the Leipzigers) and its not bad but it just doesn't have enough edge.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Weekly reminder - next week is *Rangstrom's* turn to choose!

In my listening to this quartet so far I've found it a little impenetratable. There are parts that I enjoy and that sound a lot like Bartok (one of my favorite quartet composers) in the seamless blending of modernist idioms and folk quotations, but other parts bring to mind the only real thing about Ives that I dislike - his tendency to write massive walls of dissonance without much relief. I actually enjoy this, say, in the 4th symphony where he uses all sorts of instrumental colors to sound like a kaleidoscope, but on the more monochrome piano or string quartet my mind has trouble tracking where he's going and when the pure folk music shines through for a brief second it sounds like sweet relief.

It seems to me that the first movement is conceived like a battle between avant-garde and Beethoven; there are occasional times when the music melts away into a standard chord progression and it's startling but effective. The second movement is quicker, shorter, and fun to hear. I enjoyed the third movement most; something about the warm expansiveness reminded me of the idyllic nature of unspoiled New England mountain valleys, and the conclusion is superb though I think the movement is a bit long for what it needs to say. So, I'd say, a constructive listening experience for me. Though it's still not a work that I understand completely, I don't think Ives wanted us to! He was a true eccentric who mixed profundity and playfulness in an expert fashion and if nothing else it's really nice to see his standout idiom featured in this thread which has already starred so many different styles, nationalities, and perspectives on the humble string quartet. Thanks for the nomination, Iota!


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## Iota

I agree with much of what you say, ACB, even about the quartet being somewhat impenetrable at times.

On that point I'm somewhat reminded of Ives' compatriot Mark Twain's quote "Life does not consist mainly, or even largely, of facts or happenings. It consists mainly of the storm of thoughts that is forever flowing through one's head" - and it's as if the intensity/opaqueness of some of the textures seems almost to reflect a state of mind churning never-endingly over this or that thought or feeling. Which is connected to your point about the folk quotes, as I feel at times they are indeed like lifebelts thrown into the maelstrom to try and restore some sanity/peace, but not always succeeding and thus just further highlighting the chaos.

However both the appearances of a few moments of traditional harmony and the (for me) transcendental conclusion, do I think provide a very deep sense of release.

And I agree with and find perceptive, this comment -



Allegro Con Brio said:


> .. it's still not a work that I understand completely, I don't think Ives wanted us to!


- and might add that I don't think he exactly needed us to either. He just wrote what he did, because *he* needed to.

If you haven't yet heard the Schumann Quartet's recording I'd recommend you might do so at some point, as I feel they reveal emotional facets of the music that the Emersons do not.


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## newyorkconversation

For me the Walden performance was very interesting musicologically (although of course you are right, Merl, the sonics are lousy). The Walden Quartet premiered Quartet No. 2, at Yaddo in 1946, during Ives' lifetime. Although the piece was written in 1913, and the recording we have was made in 1956, it's still as close as we can get to what you could call a "contemporary" performance that may reflect Ives' understanding of or thoughts about the work.

After getting past the recording (noise, mono, rolled-off highs and lows, etc), two things stood out to me from the Waldens. First, their performance goes well past dissonance and straight to what I'd just call cacaphony -- especially in the first two movements. It is highly performative, even theatrical, and brings to life Ives' programmatic plan about a discussion-turned-argument.

I lack the technical vocabulary to describe the second accurately, but I would characterize it as a prominent, fiddle-like twang, employed by both violinists - something that has to do with the way the strings are attacked - which reads as extremely American to me. I relate this back to Ives' comments (admittedly very gendered by our standards):



> ...It used to come over me--especially after coming from some of those nice Kneisel Quartet concerts--that music had been, and still was, too much an emasculated art. Too much of what was easy and usual to play and to hear what was called beautiful, etc.--the same old even-vibration, Sybaritic apron-strings, keeping music too much tied to the old ladies. The string quartet music got more and more trite, weak, and effeminate. After one of those Kneisel Quartet concerts in the old Mendelssohn Hall, I started a string quartet score, half mad, half in fun, and half to try out, practise, and have some fun making those men fiddlers get up and do something like men


Needless to say I like a lot of the "even-vibration, Sybaritic apron-strings" music to which he refers -- but it's illuminating for me to try to listen to this quartet a bit through https://www.nytimes.com/1902/04/09/...39/kneisel-qt-review-of-1st-mendelssohn/"]one-of-the-series-given-at.htmlthe[/url] lens of Ives' intent and ideas and to listen for those "men fiddlers" doing "something like men." I will say that after listening to the Walden, some of the other versions do sound a bit too mannered ("even-vibrationed"?): this is a piece that wants a bit of rawness in the playing, it seems to me.

ADDENDUM: the "Kneisel Quartet Concerts in the old Mendelssohn Hall" refers to a series of concerts by the Boston-based Kneisel Quartet at Mendelssohn Hall on West 40th Street in New York. With respect to the conservativism of their programs, consider this quote about the quartet's leader, First Violinist Franz Kneisel: "he would insist, if playing a series of concerts in a community, that works of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven be heard before he yielded to requests for a favorite movement from this or that quartet." A Mendelssohn Hall program in 1894 included Beethoven, Sgambatti, and Haydn; another in 1902 included Schubert, Bach, and Franck.

Kneisel Quartet at Princeton
NY Times: Kneisel at Mendelssohn Hall review - 1894
NY Times: Kneisel at Mendelssohn Hall review - 1902
Mendelssohn Hall


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## Rangstrom

Now for a change of pace. I'm afraid there are only 4 string players, no instrument abuse, no ground breaking techniques, no electronics (heaven forbid) and no evocative back story. In short, just the music.

Juan Crisóstomo de Arriaga's set of three quartets were published in Paris in 1824. I picked Quartet nr. 2 in A major, but I think all three are masterpieces and all fit (unless you play all the repeats) on one CD. When you listen to the second I hope you also listen to the quartets that bracket it.

I have four recordings:

1) Chilingirian Quartet on a CRD LP (r. c.1975)/(26:39)

2) Voces String Quartet on a MDG CD (r. 1985)/(24:02)

3) Guarneri Quartet on a Philips CD (r. 1995)/(23:09)

4) Camerata Boccherini on a Naxos CD (r. 2003)/(24:00)

Three are excellent and the other is a near miss. Enjoy.

If anyone was wondering if I would pick the Rangstrom quartet, well...it is boring.


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## Merl

Rangstrom said:


> Now for a change of pace. I'm afraid there are only 4 string players, no instrument abuse, no ground breaking techniques, no electronics (heaven forbid) and no evocative back story. In short, just the music.
> 
> Juan Crisóstomo de Arriaga's set of three quartets were published in Paris in 1824. I picked Quartet nr. 2 in A major, but I think all three are masterpieces and all fit (unless you play all the repeats) on one CD. When you listen to the second I hope you also listen to the quartets that bracket it.
> 
> I have four recordings:
> 
> 1) Chilingirian Quartet on a CRD LP (r. c.1975)/(26:39)
> 
> 2) Voces String Quartet on a MDG CD (r. 1985)/(24:02)
> 
> 3) Guarneri Quartet on a Philips CD (r. 1995)/(23:09)
> 
> 4) Camerata Boccherini on a Naxos CD (r. 2003)/(24:00)
> 
> Three are excellent and the other is a near miss. Enjoy.
> 
> If anyone was wondering if I would pick the Rangstrom quartet, well...it is boring.


Great choice. Sometimes dubbed 'The Spanish Mozart' (not my nickname) Arriaga was a gifted composer. I only have the Guarneri set but I suspect this one will end up costing me money, again. I like this one a lot and it would be nice to find an even better account than the fine Guarneri one.


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## Merl

A brief check and there's a few to go at:

Guarneri
Chilingirian
Voces
Casals
La Ritirata
Sine Nomine
Aeolian
Arriaga Quartet
Camerata Boccherini
Guilet
Prima Vista
New Vlach
Rasoumovsky
Israel
Ludwig

As usual if anyone finds any more...


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## Josquin13

Good choice, Rangstrom. I almost picked the Arriaga quartet No. 3 for my first turn here.

I first got to know these three quartets through the Chilingirian Quartet's LP set on CRD back in the 1980s. I thought they were very good recordings, but at the time, the Chilingirians pretty much had the field to themselves, except for possibly the Guarneri Quartet? whose Arriaga recordings I don't remember on LP back then. (Nor do I recall the 1976 Rasoumovsky Quartet recordings on LP, either.)

--Chilingirian Quartet, in Arriaga's String Quartet no. 2: 




Anyway, I thought I'd point out that the La Ritirata quartet is a mostly Spanish group (3 Spaniards, and 1 Japanese), and they play on period instruments. They were the first to do so in Arriaga's three quartets. & it looks like they may still be the only period performances in the catalogue--judging by Merl's list above, though I'm not certain of that. Arriaga's music sounds quite different on period instruments--it's more spiky & angular and the tempi are quicker, & there is perhaps less of a Mozartean flavor?, than with the Chilingirians, for instance: 




https://www.amazon.com/Arriaga-Comp...NYFVHAQ6DV6&psc=1&refRID=538K8NCNENYFVHAQ6DV6

EDIT: I see that Simon Standage played violin in the Rasoumovsky Quartet, however, their Arriaga recordings were made in 1976, so that may be just before Standage took up the period violin?: 



. I'm listening to it now, and it doesn't sound like a period instrument performance (though the string tones are a bit pinched, which may be due to the 70s recording quality...?).

EDIT 2: Cuarteto Casals likely uses period bows on their recording--but play on modern strings, as is their custom in classical era quartets. Given that they are another mostly Spanish quartet and excel in Mozart, I imagine they are worth hearing in this music, as well...


















I also recall that the Sine Nomine Quartet's performances of Arriaga's 3 quartets are very fine, but I've only heard their performances once, on You Tube: 



. Btw, the artwork on Sine Nomine's Claves album cover is a section from a still life painting by Juan Sanchez de Cotán, who was a Spanish still-life painter whose work I much admire (if anyone's wondering who painted the cantaloupe?... the painting is entitled, "Quince, Cabbage, and Cucumber" and it was painted by Cotán in 1602. So he wasn't a contemporary of Arriaga).

https://www.amazon.com/Juan-Crisóst...D9SS523D2XM&psc=1&refRID=03K41QE55D9SS523D2XM

(Sorry, but I haven't listened to the Ives quartet in its entirety yet. I'm behind as usual. I'll try to do so tommorow.)


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## sbmonty

Looking forward to this one. As well Arriaga's other two. Nice choice. New to me, but the moniker "Spanish Mozart" sounds intriguing. 
I'll start with the Cuarteto Casals.

Spanish Mozart indeed! Very similar!

Next up


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## sbmonty

Very rich sound. Absolutely lovely.

"the artwork on Sine Nomine's Claves album cover is a section from a still life painting by Juan Sanchez de Cotán, who was a Spanish still-life painter whose work I much admire (if anyone's wondering who painted the cantaloupe?... the painting is entitled, "Quince, Cabbage, and Cucumber" and it was painted by Cotán in 1602. So he wasn't a contemporary of Arriaga"


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## Rangstrom

J13--I always thought that the Chilingirian recording was the first. The group bio in the liner notes mentions events that happened in 1974 and events that will happen in 1976, so a 1975 release seems probable. 

Camerata Boccherini is an "authentic instruments" group.


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## Josquin13

"Camerata Boccherini is an "authentic instruments" group."

That's good to know, thanks. I don't know Camerata Boccherini. So, that makes 2 1/2 period instrument recordings of the Arriaga Quartets (counting Cuarteto Casals on period bows). 

Right now, I'm really liking the Sine Nomine Quartet in this music. 

It looks like you may be right that the Chilingirians were the first to record them, since the original label for the Guarneri Quartet recordings appears to have been Philips (& not RCA), and the Guarneris didn't record for Philips until much later in the 1990s.


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## Rangstrom

Looks like I'm wrong on who was first, while looking for the Sine Nomine quartet version I found a 1954 recording by the Aeolian Quartet and The Guilet Quartet recordings were around 1952. I suppose there could be even earlier recordings on some Spanish label. 

I'm glad I don't do discographies.


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## Iota

newyorkconversation said:


> For me the Walden performance was very interesting musicologically (although of course you are right, Merl, the sonics are lousy). The Walden Quartet premiered Quartet No. 2, at Yaddo in 1946, during Ives' lifetime. Although the piece was written in 1913, and the recording we have was made in 1956, it's still as close as we can get to what you could call a "contemporary" performance that may reflect Ives' understanding of or thoughts about the work.
> 
> After getting past the recording (noise, mono, rolled-off highs and lows, etc), two things stood out to me from the Waldens. First, their performance goes well past dissonance and straight to what I'd just call cacaphony -- especially in the first two movements. It is highly performative, even theatrical, and brings to life Ives' programmatic plan about a discussion-turned-argument.
> 
> I lack the technical vocabulary to describe the second accurately, but I would characterize it as a prominent, fiddle-like twang, employed by both violinists - something that has to do with the way the strings are attacked - which reads as extremely American to me. I relate this back to Ives' comments (admittedly very gendered by our standards):
> 
> *Needless to say I like a lot of the "even-vibration, Sybaritic apron-strings" music to which he refers -- but it's illuminating for me to try to listen to this quartet a bit through https://www.nytimes.com/1902/04/09/...39/kneisel-qt-review-of-1st-mendelssohn/"]one-of-the-series-given-at.htmlthe[/url] lens of Ives' intent and ideas and to listen for those "men fiddlers" doing "something like men." I will say that after listening to the Walden, some of the other versions do sound a bit too mannered ("even-vibrationed"?): this is a piece that wants a bit of rawness in the playing, it seems to me.*
> 
> ADDENDUM: the "Kneisel Quartet Concerts in the old Mendelssohn Hall" refers to a series of concerts by the Boston-based Kneisel Quartet at Mendelssohn Hall on West 40th Street in New York. With respect to the conservativism of their programs, consider this quote about the quartet's leader, First Violinist Franz Kneisel: "he would insist, if playing a series of concerts in a community, that works of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven be heard before he yielded to requests for a favorite movement from this or that quartet." A Mendelssohn Hall program in 1894 included Beethoven, Sgambatti, and Haydn; another in 1902 included Schubert, Bach, and Franck.
> 
> Kneisel Quartet at Princeton
> NY Times: Kneisel at Mendelssohn Hall review - 1894
> NY Times: Kneisel at Mendelssohn Hall review - 1902
> Mendelssohn Hall


Very interesting post indeed, nyc, and illuminating to read Ives forthright views. After reading your above paragraph (bolded) I feel I must now hear the Walden Quartet, poor sonics and all! The NY Times link didn't work for me sadly.

I'll get on the Arriaga quartet, I think I may have heard one of them many years ago, but only have vague memories. Look forward to it!


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## newyorkconversation

there's a messed up link in the body of the post (mea culpa, still apparently getting the hang of this internet thing), but perhaps the links at the end might work better? they do for me...


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> EDIT: I see that Simon Standage played violin in the Rasoumovsky Quartet, however, their Arriaga recordings were made in 1976, so that may be just before Standage took up the period violin?:
> 
> 
> 
> . I'm listening to it now, and it doesn't sound like a period instrument performance (though the string tones are a bit pinched, which may be due to the 70s recording quality...?).


Jossie, Simon Standage is indeed the violinist on the Rasoumovsky recording.


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## Merl

*Ives - String Quartet 2*

_My pick - Schumann Quartet_

Incidentally, to finish off the Ives from last week I've chosen the Schumann Quartet recording as my pick. It could have been the brilliant and classic Juilliard recording on another day but I thought this one deserves a massive shout. Its a superb performance and the sound and feel of it is immensely satisfying. Its an immediate and powerful display with dynamics aplenty. A great recording.


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## Merl

Apologies for a triple post (tbf they were hours apart). Listening to a few of the Arriaga performances it's gonna be hard to separate them as there's plenty of quality performances. Sound quality could play a big part in my choice this week. Btw, I love the 2nd movement of this one (those scampering pizzocatos which don't last long enough).


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## newyorkconversation

Cuarteto Casals for me so far, although La Ritirata's project is certainly very interesting. 

The biographical background here is not without interest - child prodigy, sent to Paris at 15 to study with Cherubini, composes three quartets at 16, sees them published at 18, dies at 19 without seeing any other works published in his lifetime!


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## Merl

I've binged on this one yesterday and today like Lord Binge of Bingeshire, Bingeland. So here's my thoughts, whether you like them or not.

*Guarneri* - nice recording and lovely playthrough, full of quirky little individual touches. Still a fine performance and the only one I own (for now).
*Casals* - Another decent performance but lacks the character of the Guarneris. Well recorded and good enough though. They play the pizzicatos on the 2nd movement beautifully.
*Sine Nomine* - this terrific recording caught me on the hop. Stunning recorded sound with lots of bottom end and full of character. Love their use of dynamics. Killer.
*La Ritirata* - if you want a very sweet-toned and light reading of this quartet then you'll enjoy this rather uber-bright recording I didn't like it much, tbh. I need a bit more bass in my quartet recordings.
*Camerata Boccherini* - another fine performance. Excellent Naxos sound and vital performances.
*New Vlach* - very sweet-toned but much better played than the La Ritirata disc and there's some gorgeous tones in ensemble. Whether you will rate the New Vlach's broader approach is down to you but if you do then this could be the one for you. Personally I found it a little slow in parts but its certainly beautifully played and a fine account.

Ive still more to listen to but apart from the Ritirata disc all the approaches I find equally valid and my preferences are for more characterful or ballsy interpretations. You may feel differently.


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## Merl

More Arriaga again for me and this time three performances. The first, on the way to work today and replayed on the way home, was the *Rasoumovsky* account. Simon Standage and Co provide a decent if a little undercharacterised performance but it gets better as it goes on (I found the first movement a bit plain-faced). Not a bad start. Better was to come from the *Voces* recording which is similar in sound to the Guarneris but not in style. Nice interplay especially in the 3rd movement and the 2nd movement pizzicatos are lovely. Finally it was the *Aeolian's *1954 recording I turned to. A bit of background noise on this one but not too distracting soundwise so I was looking forward to this one. However, where the Aeolian come unstuck is playing this one too prettily. Very gentle performance but there's too much daintiness here for me. The 2nd movement totally lacks dynamics in particular and the pizzicato secton is so delicately done it hardly registers in decibels. Not one for me, I'm afraid.


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## SearsPoncho

I just listened to the Arriaga String Quartet #2 for the first time. Guarneri Quartet. I must admit that I'm in shock. That was composed by a 15 year old?! Furthemore, it doesn't sound like a Mozart or Haydn imitation; it might be closer to early Beethoven or Schubert. Nevertheless, he has his own voice. Good interplay between all instruments, including cello. The Theme and Variations are compelling rather than just being an intellectual exercise, which is often the case with lesser composers. I love it. I'm going to buy a recording of this. Too bad we never had a chance to hear his adult compositions. I'm sure this incredibly talented prodigy would have been one of the greatest composers the world has known. That's a bingo!

Big thank you to Rangstrom for suggesting this.


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## Merl

I listened to the *Chilingirian* Quartet's idiosyncratic account before. The dry sound and incredibly slow 2nd movement would normally be a total turn-off for me but there's something about this recording that I really liked. Even though that 2nd movement clocks in at a bewildering 10 minutes (most are around 7 mins) and is more like a largo than an andante it actually works in a strange way. Other movements are less idiomatic. Beautifully played account. One you'll either get or not so I understand if people turn their noses up at it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Classical Period music is generally a bit of a blind spot for me. Sure, I love lots of pieces by Mozart and Haydn (who doesn't?) but I can find the idiom repetitive, formulaic, and shallow. Yet I love this Arriaga quartet. What a nearly-forgotten page in the history of music poor Juan is! To see what he could have done mixing Classical-period aesthetics with Spanish folk music as a more mature composer would have been amazing, and we would be talking about him in the same breath as the two other big composers of the era. But as it stands, even as a 15-year-old, he could definitely claim equal stature (if not more) with what Mozart was composing at that age. It's just downright lovely music, especially those imaginative variations. I would take this for a mature Mozart quartet, not a piece that would be likely be considered juvenilia if the composer had lived even for as long as Mozart. What a fantastic choice. This is why I love this forum; I don't know if I would have ever heard of Arriaga if not for the thread.

P.S. *BlackAdderLXX*, if you're still hanging around, it's your turn next week


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## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Classical Period music is generally a bit of a blind spot for me. Sure, I love lots of pieces by Mozart and Haydn (who doesn't?) but I can find the idiom repetitive, formulaic, and shallow. Yet I love this Arriaga quartet. What a nearly-forgotten page in the history of music poor Juan is! To see what he could have done mixing Classical-period aesthetics with Spanish folk music as a more mature composer would have been amazing, and we would be talking about him in the same breath as the two other big composers of the era. But as it stands, even as a 15-year-old, he could definitely claim equal stature (if not more) with what Mozart was composing at that age. It's just downright lovely music, especially those imaginative variations. I would take this for a mature Mozart quartet, *not a piece that would be likely be considered juvenilia if the composer had lived even for as long as Mozart*. What a fantastic choice. This is why I love this forum; I don't know if I would have ever heard of Arriaga if not for the thread.


I thought exactly the same. The string quartet (and his other two quartets as well) is a lot more mature than I would have expected if I had known how young he was when I first listened to it. He doesn't get too carried away and comfortable with the beautiful Classical form itself but makes it interesting and captivating.


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## Rangstrom

I noted that I had 4 recordings (Chilingirian on LP and Guarneri, Voces and Camerata Boccherini on CD), but didn't rank them to leave an open field. My favorite is the original instrument performance by Camerata Boccherini followed closely by the Chilingirian (where I discovered these works/the sound on the LPs is pretty good, I haven't heard the cd transfer) and the Guarneri (I followed a lot of their early work, so I'm very comfortable with their "tone"). The Voce is good, but tries to push the Romantic foreshadowings too much.

I didn't mention Arriaga's age at composition (variously cited anywhere from 15 to 19) because I feel these are fully mature masterpieces, yet it is pretty amazing.

I glad every one had fun with this and thank all of you for the additional research, especially Merl and Josquin13. I didn't realize how many recordings are out there (probably a good thing for my wallet). I was especially shocked by the 50's mono recordings by the Aeolian and the Guilet quartets. I knew the Aeolian from their Haydn cycle, but blanked on the Guilet Quartet. Of course, Daniel Guilet was later the original violinist for the Beaux Arts Trio.

I started collecting in the late 60s, firmly in the stereo era and the early mono LP age still remains terra incognito for me. I'm slowly trying to remedy that, but many of those recordings have long disappeared.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> P.S. *BlackAdderLXX*, if you're still hanging around, it's your turn next week


I am, and I will!


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I am, and I will!


Im fearing the worst. :lol:


----------



## Malx

Merl said:


> Im fearing the worst. :lol:


Possibly Baldricks 3rd 'Boom Boom Boom' - inspired by the poem of the same name?


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## Iota

Have now listened to and enjoyed the Arriaga. I found it full of wit, elegance and charm and delivered with an eloquence of craft that's astonishing in one so young, but as others have said, impressive at any age. 

I listened first to the Guarneri then, thanks to Merl's ringing recommendation, Sine Nomine, and glad I did, as I thought they were far more successful in bringing out its natural qualities and I enjoyed it far more in their hands.
I'd also add that, without a shred of scholarship to back me up, I felt stylistically, with its contrasts of material and so on it resembled early Mozart, and harmonically more early Beethoven.

As always glad to have heard it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Im fearing the worst. :lol:


No need to fear. My reign will be benevolent. Except to my enemies.



Malx said:


> Possibly Baldricks 3rd 'Boom Boom Boom' - inspired by the poem of the same name?


Baldrick is incredibly underrated!

Actually, I'm in a bit of a quandry. There are two excellent and as yet to be picked works that I have been considering. One of them would definitely receive kudos for being a composer that all the cool kids would like, but there are very few recordings, so Merl wouldn't be able to do his thing where he runs down the top 100 recordings of the work (that he already owns). The other is definitely more widely recorded, but those who prefer the more modern/avant garde works may not like, as it's classical era (not Mozart). Still pondering my dilemma.


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## Malx

BlackAdderLXX said:


> No need to fear. My reign will be benevolent. Except to my enemies.
> 
> Baldrick is incredibly underrated!
> 
> Actually, I'm in a bit of a quandry. There are two excellent and as yet to be picked works that I have been considering. One of them would definitely receive kudos for being a composer that all the cool kids would like, but there are very few recordings, so Merl wouldn't be able to do his thing where he runs down the top 100 recordings of the work (that he already owns). The other is definitely more widely recorded, but those who prefer the more modern/avant garde works may not like, as it's classical era (not Mozart). Still pondering my dilemma.


Go with your gut.

I believe Baldrick is still held in high regard by those opinions are entrenched in the music of the early part of the 20th century.
Now I'll shut up :tiphat:


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> No need to fear. My reign will be benevolent. Except to my enemies.
> 
> Baldrick is incredibly underrated!
> 
> Actually, I'm in a bit of a quandry. There are two excellent and as yet to be picked works that I have been considering. One of them would definitely receive kudos for being a composer that all the cool kids would like, but there are very few recordings, so Merl wouldn't be able to do his thing where he runs down the top 100 recordings of the work (that he already owns). The other is definitely more widely recorded, but those who prefer the more modern/avant garde works may not like, as it's classical era (not Mozart). Still pondering my dilemma.


Oi! I'm getting close to editing my friends list, BA. And for your information the only thing I have over 100 recordings of are Beethoven symphony cycles, so there!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Malx said:


> Go with your gut.


Ok then...Bax String Quartet no. 1 in G major. 
Arnold Bax went from someone I had never heard of to one of my favorite composers almost overnight. His tone poems and a couple of his symphonies are up there with the best of them, IMHO. And this SQ grabbed me from the first moment.

This is from Editionsilvertrust.com



> String Quartet No.1 in G Major
> 
> Arnold Bax's String Quartet No.1 in G Major was completed in 1918 and is in three movements. The opening theme to the upbeat first movement, Allgretto semplice, sounds a little like Dvorak but soon we hear the music of the music of the English countryside. Ingratiating and appealing, the tonal quality of the melody is clearly more modern. The calm middle movement, Lento e molto expressivo, is warm and rather romantic. The finale, Rondo, allegro vivace, has the quality of a rustic country dance, full of energy and good spirits.
> 
> Arnold Bax (1883-1953) was born in London. He studied at the Royal Academy of Music. Of independent means, he never needed to teach or conduct. He was a fine pianist but his main interests were composing music and poetry. His strong affinity for Ireland led him to spend considerable time in that country which influenced his outlook and music. The 1916 Easter Uprising in Ireland and its brutal suppression, which included the execution of several of his friends, was to have a profound influence upon him. He is remembered mostly for his orchestral compositions but he wrote a great deal of chamber music. His music show many influences, perhaps the strongest of which is impressionism.


Presto shows three recordings of this work.

I actually got the entire Maggini English Quartet box because of how great their Bax Quartets were. I haven't heard the other ones but the Maggini (on sale at Presto for under $6 downloaded) is really great.


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## Simplicissimus

I completely flaked out on the Arriaga, didn't even get around to listening to it because I've been working like a fiend and dealing with family matters, too. I hope to come back to it, especially with the positive impressions I've read here.

But the Bax. WOW! I only started listening to Bax seriously about three years ago, and then only his tone poems on a single nice CD I own of "Boult conducts Bax" on Lyrita. I love these tone poems and have his symphonies on my wish-list, but his SQs were not on my radar, so this promises to be an exciting week of SQ listening.

Let me reminisce about Bax. I had never heard of him until the two years I lived in England, 1986-1988, when I started to hear his works on BBC Radio 3. I was interested, but I was at the same time switching on to a lot of other English music, like RVW and Finzi, and Bax took a _back seat_. Then I came back to North America and met up with an old CM friend and I gushed over the English music I'd discovered while in England. He was always more well-listened than I (he wrote CM reviews for an alternative newspaper, even), and he praised my taste regarding RVW and Finzi. But as for Bax, he said (remembering his exact words), "You and Bax should get on the train right back to Clown Town." Being a callow fellow at the time, I felt hurt and sort of recoiled from Bax until I decided, in my advancing dotage, to give him another try. So glad I did.

Just going with the name of the ensemble, I've started listening to this one, and I'm finding it marvelous:


----------



## Merl

Nice choice, BA. As you know I like this one a lot and have the Maggini Bax set of quartets. Strangely enough it's on the car USB at the moment. What a coincidence! The only recordings of the Bax 1st I'm aware of otherwise are:

English Quartet
Pavao Quartet
Divertimento Quartet

BTW, to conclude my *Arriaga String Quartet 2* listening I'm picking the *Sine Nomine* recording as my top choice. Absolute cracker of a disc.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Bax is a great composer but, at least, in my experience, requires prolonged attentive listening, which is why I think this is a great choice for the thread! Here's an updated master list for reference:

*First Round*

23 Feb: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
1 Mar: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
8 Mar: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15 Mar: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22 Mar: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29 Mar: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
5 Apr: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12 Apr: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
19 Apr: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
20 Apr: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
3 May: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10 May: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17 May: Ravel - String Quartet in F Major (Eramire156)
24 May: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31 May: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
7 June: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14 June: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21 June: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28 June: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
5 July: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12 July: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19 July: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26 July: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
2 August: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

*Second Round*

9 Aug: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16 Aug: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
23 Aug: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30 Aug: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
6 Sept: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
13 Sept: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
20 Sept: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
26 Sept: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)

4 Oct: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11 Oct: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)
18 Oct: Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
25 Oct: Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)
1 Nov: Rihm - Et Lux for string quartet and vocals (calvinpv)
8 Nov: Ives - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
15 Nov: Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2 (Rangstrom)
21 Nov: Bax - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)


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## SearsPoncho

I only know Bax from his orchestral music. This is a pleasant surprise. First impression lies somewhere between Dvorak and Janacek, although it's a lot closer to Janacek based on the episodic quirkiness and mixture of intense Romanticism and emotionalism with what sounds like a rustic or folk influence. To be honest, if you told me this was an early 20th Century Czech composer, I would have believed it. In addition, I would not be shocked if Bax was familiar with Debussy's String Quartet. Perhaps some modal explorations or use of the pentatonic scale. Occasionally I hear a somewhat jazzy aesthetic in some of the chords, particularly the 3rd movement. Pardon my stream of thought ramblings; these are just my initial thoughts. 

I listened to the Maggini Quartet, and I'm afraid...

...you guys are going to cost me a fortune!:lol:


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> I only know Bax from his orchestral music. This is a pleasant surprise. First impression lies somewhere between Dvorak and Janacek, although it's a lot closer to Janacek based on the episodic quirkiness and mixture of intense Romanticism and emotionalism with what sounds like a rustic or folk influence. To be honest, if you told me this was an early 20th Century Czech composer, I would have believed it. In addition, I would not be shocked if Bax was familiar with Debussy's String Quartet. Perhaps some modal explorations or use of the pentatonic scale. Occasionally I hear a somewhat jazzy aesthetic in some of the chords, particularly the 3rd movement. Pardon my stream of thought ramblings; these are just my initial thoughts.
> 
> I listened to the Maggini Quartet, and I'm afraid...
> 
> ...you guys are going to cost me a fortune!:lol:


I agree that Dvorak was definitely a model for Bax in the 1st quartet. Lots of nods to Dvorak's mature quartets (especially the 11th). There's some great melodies in there. I remember when I got the Maggini disc (another charity shop buy) and was really impressed by Bax's vision. It's currently one of my most played SQ discs (along with Mendelssohn 6).


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## BlackAdderLXX

SearsPoncho said:


> I only know Bax from his orchestral music. This is a pleasant surprise. First impression lies somewhere between Dvorak and Janacek, although it's a lot closer to Janacek based on the episodic quirkiness and mixture of intense Romanticism and emotionalism with what sounds like a rustic or folk influence. To be honest, if you told me this was an early 20th Century Czech composer, I would have believed it. In addition, I would not be shocked if Bax was familiar with Debussy's String Quartet. Perhaps some modal explorations or use of the pentatonic scale. Occasionally I hear a somewhat jazzy aesthetic in some of the chords, particularly the 3rd movement. Pardon my stream of thought ramblings; these are just my initial thoughts.
> 
> I listened to the Maggini Quartet, and I'm afraid...
> 
> ...you guys are going to cost me a fortune!:lol:


Merl turned me on to these guys when I first heard Bax. I just skipped the pretending and went ahead and ordered the Maggini English Quartets box and I'm glad I did. They're great in the English works.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Listening to the Maggini again. The rondo is just fantastic in this. It grabs me from the start and doesn't let go.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Listening to the Maggini again. The rondo is just fantastic in this. It grabs me from the start and doesn't let go.


I listened to the *Maggini* recording on the car USB this morning and still think it's an excellent recording but then I played the *Pavao Quartet *performance, courtesy of Spotify, and that's even better, BA. Honestly, the recording is superb and they play with so much spirit. Absolute cracker and it's a shame they've only recorded the first quartet as I'd imagine this would be a set to get. Whatever, you would love love it, BA. The first movement is awesome.


----------



## annaw

Merl said:


> I listened to the *Maggini* recording on the car USB this morning and still think it's an excellent recording but then I played the *Pavao Quartet *performance, courtesy of Spotify, and that's even better, BA. Honestly, the recording is superb and they play with so much spirit. Absolute cracker and it's a shame they've only recorded the first quartet as I'd imagine this would be a set to get. Whatever, you would love love it, BA. The first movement is awesome.


Wow, I'm listening to it at the moment and the sound is absolutely fantastic.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> I listened to the *Maggini* recording on the car USB this morning and still think it's an excellent recording but then I played the *Pavao Quartet *performance, courtesy of Spotify, and that's even better, BA. Honestly, the recording is superb and they play with so much spirit. Absolute cracker and it's a shame they've only recorded the first quartet as I'd imagine this would be a set to get. Whatever, you would love love it, BA. The first movement is awesome.


So far I've made it to 6pm and only discovered TWO recordings I need to get now. TC is taking it easy on me today.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've just done a casual listen of this (not the whole thing) with the Maggini recording but I already know that is one of my favorite new works I've discovered through this thread. The bouncy pizzicato hooks you from the start and from there it's just a delightful rhapsodic adventure. The slow movement is really something special. Is there a specific kind of folk music that Bax is trying to emulate/draw inspiration from here? Something about the whole idiom reminds me of carefree country folk whistling while they work. I am definitely going to be going in for a pretty deep study this week, the music is too good not to.


----------



## Simplicissimus

I really like this SQ. It is good-natured through and through and just so charming. The first time I listened to it, the first movement sounded very familiar and I couldn’t figure out why. Then I read some of the above comments about Dvorak, and I realized that was it. Really, the first movement sounds so much like Dvorak, but then the second movement sounds to me like pure Bax, with a sensibility that he expresses in the tone poems that I know. The third movement comes back to Dvorak, but has a lot of Bax’s characteristic voice. On to try as many recent as I can find. I can spend a lot of time with this one.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> So far I've made it to 6pm and only discovered TWO recordings I need to get now. TC is taking it easy on me today.


That's why I love this thread. I keep finding new recordings of pieces I enjoy. It's a joy.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Just chiming in for the weekly reminder...it's *starthrower*'s turn next week...


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## Merl

Finally listened to the *English Quartet* in this SQ and its very goid too. Not as refined playing as the Pavao but they play with such enthusiasm it's a rewarding performance.

After listening to 3 of the Bax recordings, *my favourite for the Bax SQ1 is definitely the Pavao Quartet*. Its such a superb account recorded in stunning sound. Don't get me wrong, we're well served here with all accounts of the Bax 1st Quartet and they are all very good but this Pavao one has the edge.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Finally listened to the *English Quartet* in this SQ and its very goid too. Not as refined playing as the Pavao but they play with such enthusiasm it's a rewarding performance.
> 
> After listening to 3 of the Bax recordings, *my favourite for the Bax SQ1 is definitely the Pavao Quartet*. Its such a superb account recorded in stunning sound. Don't get me wrong, we're well served here with all accounts of the Bax 1st Quartet and they are all very good but this Pavao one has the edge.
> 
> View attachment 146695


Robert Palmer .


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## Rangstrom

I enjoyed listening to the Bax. His symphonies and tone poems are often in my rotation. I have the much discussed Maggini set on Naxos so I really can't add anything new.


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Just chiming in for the weekly reminder...it's *starthrower*'s turn next week...


Thanks for the reminder. And once again I need to request the latest list of quartets already featured. Thanks!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

starthrower said:


> Thanks for the reminder. And once again I need to request the latest list of quartets already featured. Thanks!


No problem

First Round

23 Feb: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
1 Mar: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
8 Mar: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15 Mar: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22 Mar: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29 Mar: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
5 Apr: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12 Apr: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
19 Apr: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
20 Apr: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
3 May: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10 May: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17 May: Ravel - String Quartet in F Major (Eramire156)
24 May: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31 May: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
7 June: Kurtág - 6 Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14 June: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21 June: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28 June: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
5 July: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12 July: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19 July: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26 July: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
2 August: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

Second Round

9 Aug: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16 Aug: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
23 Aug: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30 Aug: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
6 Sept: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
13 Sept: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
20 Sept: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
26 Sept: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)

4 Oct: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11 Oct: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)
18 Oct: Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
25 Oct: Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)
1 Nov: Rihm - Et Lux for string quartet and vocals (calvinpv)
8 Nov: Ives - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
15 Nov: Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2 (Rangstrom)
21 Nov: Bax - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)


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## starthrower

Okay, good! My choice hasn't been covered yet. Shall I post this tomorrow or Monday?


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## Allegro Con Brio

starthrower said:


> Okay, good! My choice hasn't been covered yet. Shall I post this tomorrow or Monday?


Sunday is usually the day when we switch over, but you can post whenever you're ready


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## starthrower

Okie, dokie! It'll be up tomorrow.


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## Iota

It took me three goes before I was in the mood, but have finally listened to the Bax which I enjoyed with the (ever trustworthy) Maggini Quartet. He certainly seems to know his way around a string quartet, and everything seemed to dance freely or languish opulently as mood required. There's a melody in the central section of the last movement that sounds so like a yearning Irish ballad, a string quartet response to Danny Boy, and I remembered he had a fascination with Ireland. I checked and saw also that it was written in 1918, but personally found it generally light-hearted and didn't detect any echoes of the background of WWI.

Actually I listened to the 2nd quartet at first by mistake rolleyes and found that a more reflective and excursive kind of piece, but also enjoyed.

Anyway, nice choice, BA LXX (take out the middle two letters of your acronym and it looks like a familiar name ..), glad I got to hear it. 

Am struggling a bit to keep up with the quartets, but hope to get round to each of them eventually.


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## sbmonty

I enjoyed this one as well. I'm going to order the Maggini cds. Nice choice. Thanks!


----------



## starthrower

I thought of the Dutilleux quartet (Ainsi la nuit) a few weeks ago and after re-listening to it a couple times through I'm still a big fan of this one so I hope you enjoy it. I don't know if there's any consensus about definitive performances but this is a good sounding upload. It's a single movement work under 20 minutes so it doesn't require a large investment of time. Just time to listen to it again!






Composed	1973-76
Dedication	"to the memory of Ernest Sussman and in homage to Olga Koussevitzky"

From Wikipedia:

The piece is based on series of studies which focus on different aspects of sound production: pizzicatos, harmonics, dynamics, contrasts, opposition of register.[1] It is built from a single hexachord that contains the notes C♯ - G♯ - F - G - C - D, thus highlighting the intervals of fifth and major second.[8] This chord constitutes the basis from which the whole string quartet is derived. The octatonic mode is also used extensively throughout the work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainsi_la_nuit


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I thought of the Dutilleux quartet (Ainsi la nuit) a few weeks ago and after re-listening to it a couple times through I'm still a big fan of this one so I hope you enjoy it. I don't know if there's any consensus about definitive performances but this is a good sounding upload. It's a single movement work under 20 minutes so it doesn't require a large investment of time. Just time to listen to it again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Composed	1973-76
> Dedication	"to the memory of Ernest Sussman and in homage to Olga Koussevitzky"
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> 
> The piece is based on series of studies which focus on different aspects of sound production: pizzicatos, harmonics, dynamics, contrasts, opposition of register.[1] It is built from a single hexachord that contains the notes C♯ - G♯ - F - G - C - D, thus highlighting the intervals of fifth and major second.[8] This chord constitutes the basis from which the whole string quartet is derived. The octatonic mode is also used extensively throughout the work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainsi_la_nuit


I have a couple of references in this one as it's often coupled with the Ravel SQ but I'm not going to say what these are. Both of these came near or at the top of my Ravel roundup a while ago. I'll throw in a list of all the recordings I can find (I have a few of these). The one below is one I play quite often. However I won't say anything else about it yet.


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## Merl

Here's a list of the ones I could find but there's probably some ancient, OOP ones I've missed.


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## starthrower

The only one I own is the Quatuor sine nomine in the Erato 4 disc box.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Sweet pick. I haven't listened to it before but I was just listening to the Dutilleux symphonies yesterday. I'm looking forward to it!


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## Merl

Updated list:


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## Merl

I've listened to 3 Dutilleux performances up to now. For me, the recording quality is essential in this quartet to hear all the pings, plinks, plonks, twangs (technical terms - wow Merl) and other assorted sounds in this quartet. With that in mind the *Arditti'*s Live recording failed to impress due to the rather distant and odd soundstage (it's not a particularly interesting account either). The *Belcea* and *Hermes* recordings are much more successful and it's hard to choose between the two. I need to listen to both of these excellent recordings again (I own both)
Both highly recommended though.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> I've listened to 3 Dutilleux performances up to now. For me, the recording quality is essential in this quartet to hear all the pings, plinks, plonks, twangs (technical terms - wow Merl) and other assorted sounds in this quartet.


Maybe Dutilleux should have named it the onomatopoeia quartet?


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## SearsPoncho

Does anyone know if Dutilleux was influenced by Bartok's quartets, particularly the Fourth?


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## starthrower

SearsPoncho said:


> Does anyone know if Dutilleux was influenced by Bartok's quartets, particularly the Fourth?


According to the Wiki link I provided above, Dutilleux studied the quartets of Beethoven, Bartok, and Webern's Six Bagatelles before composing his quartet.


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## annaw

For those who, differently from me, are well-versed in score reading and music theory, here's a rather thorough analysis of Dutilleux's String Quartet: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf...Ygy2_t7-p0yUhyPl1fh1JbuXLiVXLFZL0T7cwVM4h5Cmg

I listened to the Hermès quartet's recording and I was very positively surprised. I like the use of pizzicato a lot and I think it was structurally interesting. Will listen to it more to get a better grasp of it, though. Thanks for a great choice, starthrower!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Dutilleux is one of my favorite contemporary composers; I love his dream-like blend of consonance and dissonance and he is a lot "easier on the ears" to my liking than some of the more experimental composers. His work simply feels like a natural extension of Debussy in its voluptuous feel for texture and harmony. This is a quartet that I have heard before and which I love. It's just the right length, the extended techniques aren't intrusive but are naturally integrated, and there is lots of variety within the small package. Great to hear again.


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## Rangstrom

Well I had fun stepping into Dutilleux's unique world for a listen to the Juilliard String Quartet's recording of the quartet. It is a place I like to visit often. This Juilliard CD of the quartet is excellent. The performance is nicely atmospheric and detailed. The sound is warm and focused with enough air around the players to set the sound stage without getting cavernous. Very enjoyable. Still I would like to pick up another version if I can find a very good one not shoe horned onto the end of a Debussy/Ravel set.

As an aside, i recently picked up volume 3 of the Morlot/Seattle Symphony Dutilleux orchestral series an it is breathtaking.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Dutilleux is one of my favorite contemporary composers; I love his dream-like blend of consonance and dissonance and he is a lot "easier on the ears" to my liking than some of the more experimental composers. His work simply feels like a natural extension of Debussy in its voluptuous feel for texture and harmony. This is a quartet that I have heard before and which I love. It's just the right length, the extended techniques aren't intrusive but are naturally integrated, and there is lots of variety within the small package. Great to hear again.


I think this is an interesting point, and it may well be right that there's a line to be drawn from Debussy through Dutilleux to Dusapin. (They all hit the D spot.)


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## Allegro Con Brio

This quartet also reminds me of the Fauré quartet in that it focuses more on creating a supple, protean dreamscape rather than developing a traditional structure. I'm a sucker for that sort of sensuous, impressionistic music.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This quartet also reminds me of the Fauré quartet in that it focuses more on creating a supple, protean dreamscape rather than developing a traditional structure. I'm a sucker for that sort of sensuous, impressionistic music.


I agree, it's very much about the textures. Ainsi doesn't have a core as such. The piece meanders slowly through its course like a river, changing slightly with every passing year. Probably a better analogy given its stop/start nature would be shifting sands and no-one has conveyed this to my rubbish ears as eloquently as the *Juilliards* in the accounts I've listened to up to now (I still have several more to get through so who knows). It may not be as impressively recorded as the Belcea and Hermes but its wholly engaging and works brilliantly.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Weekly reminder: Unless anyone who has previously not participated or been missing from the thread wants to step in, we only have two more nominators left to go for our "second round" before we start a third cycle! *Annaw* this week and SearsPoncho next week.


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## Merl

Three excellent versions of Dutilleux before. The *Petersen* Quartet are strong and heartily recorded but with a lovely string tone. The* New World* Quartet bring out the more 'romantic' tones of the piece but play with great clarity. Finally the *Orpheus* Quartet on their superbly recorded disc are similarly engaging and aided by a beautiful recording they bring out the mystery of Dutilleux to great effect (I own this great disc - the Ravel is superb) . I'd heartily recommend all 3 of these.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post but ive listened to more recordings this morning. The Quatuor *Rosamonde* play with power and plenty of expression and this is a fine performance. Similarly, the *Ardittis* improve on their live account with a decent, of not entirely memorable, studio performance. The live *Ruysdael* recording is an interesting one. The highly resonant live acoustic adds great atmosphere to this account but it also detracts in louder passages, slightly muddying the sound picture (I find it ruins the accompanying Ravel on this disc). However this Dutilleux is a fine one. Even more interesting is the *Schoenberg* quartet's highly impressive effort. The Schoenbergs explore the different sounds of this quartet eloquently and the wide range of sounds they create are particularly pleasing to this ear. Finally I tried the *Arcanto'*s excellent account. From delicate hushed intensity to muscular interplay this is a terrific effort boasting beautiful sonics. It's also a highly impressive disc for their Ravel and Debussy recordings .I also sampled the *Ludwig* Quartet and *Alma* Quartet this afternoon and they to are fine accounts. There's little to choose between many of today's recordings.


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## Knorf

I enjoyed this quartet very much. Dutilleux always presents such a beautiful sound palette, which until now I mostly knew from his orchestral music. I also enjoy the organic way his ideas grow and develop, almost like the tendrils of a vine sped up 1000x. Simply gorgeous music!

I listened to this live performance from the 2014 Dilijan Chamber Music Series in Los Angeles:


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## Merl

After a week of listening to some excellent Dutilleux performances I settled on one performance that ticked all the boxes for me.

Highly recommended (all superb) 
Orpheus
Hermes
Petersen
New World 
Arcanto


My top picks (I couldn't choose between them)









Juilliard - The other two performances on this CD (Ravel and Debussy) may not be at the very top for me but they absolutely nail the Dutilleux. This cohesive analogue 1976 performance still sounds good (although there have been complaints about this particular transfer). If you are looking for a more forthright, technically superb performance then this could be the one for you.









The Schoenberg Quartet's late 2000s recording is a contrast to the Juiliiard. The Schoenbergs really explore the sounds and create some a stunning dreamy soundscape. I really enjoyed this one a great deal. Beautifully recorded too.

It's been great revisiting this quartet as I tend to zone out a little when it's sandwiched between Ravel and others on disc so listening in isolation has been lovely. A great choice for this week.


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## Rangstrom

Merl--a small point about the Juilliard performance on Sony SK 52554: while the Dutilleux quartet was written in 1976, the Juilliard DDD recording is from 1992 (as is the Ravel, the Debussy is 1989). Yet again, thank you for your summary.


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## SearsPoncho

Knorf said:


> I enjoyed this quartet very much. Dutilleux always presents such a beautiful sound palette, which until now I mostly knew from his orchestral music. I also enjoy the organic way his ideas grow and develop, almost like the tendrils of a vine sped up 1000x. Simply gorgeous music!
> 
> I listened to this live performance from the 2014 Dilijan Chamber Music Series in Los Angeles:


I enjoyed this performance very much.


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## SearsPoncho

Some more random thoughts (well, not completely random):

I've never heard of Surrealism in music (perhaps Takemitsu), but if someone wanted to argue that this was an example of it, I wouldn't resist. It seems to slip in and out of a lovely dreamworld. There's the beauty of the gorgeous dream, and then a cold, harsh dose of reality upon waking. I realize that's a sappy description, but I'm a sappy guy. 

I still hear a significant Bartok influence. That's a good thing.

There's also an interesting contrapuntal element I hear that's not as far removed from traditional classical music as one might think.

Thanks to Starthrower for the suggestion of this quartet. I enjoyed the ride!


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## annaw

Merl, thanks for the great summary!

I've finally chosen the quartet for this week - *Niels Gade's String Quartet in E minor, Op. 8* (1877). (Yes, I know, another Dane )

Niels Wilhelm Gade was one of the most important, if not the most important, composer of the 19th century Denmark. He started as a concert violinist and I recall reading that this can be heard in the first violin parts. Gade gave lots of concerts and had close ties with German Romantic composers: he conducted the premiere of Mendelssohn's violin concerto and later assumed the directorship of the Gewandhaus Orchestra Leipzig after Mendelssohn's death. Mendelssohn also conducted Gade's first symphony and Gade befriended Robert Schumann. German Romantics had a huge influence on Gade's music. Initially, I thought I'd choose Gade's unfinished F major quartet "Willkommen und Abschied" but I couldn't find a single recording on Youtube (it's on Spotify, though). That quartet was written when Gade was in his early 20s (?) and it demonstrates some rather pure Danish Romanticism as Gade had not met the great German composers when he wrote it. Gade had a huge influence on Scandinavian composers and taught both Nielsen and Grieg. Nielsen, particularly, was very fond of Gade and was very devastated and shocked when in Berlin he received the news of Gade's death in 1890.

I decided to go with his E minor quartet, which was left unpublished during Gade's lifetime as well. Asger Lund Christiansen, the cellist of Copenhagen Quartet put together the string quartet based on Gade's manuscripts. He certainly did his job well!


















*NB! This quartet has an Allegretto movement as well before the Finale but I have no idea whatsoever why Copenhagen Quartet's recording doesn't include it. Spotify and Primephonic have Kontra quartet's recording which has the Allegretto as well .*


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## Merl

Rangstrom said:


> Merl--a small point about the Juilliard performance on Sony SK 52554: while the Dutilleux quartet was written in 1976, the Juilliard DDD recording is from 1992 (as is the Ravel, the Debussy is 1989). Yet again, thank you for your summary.


Oops, sorry. Thought it sounded good for analogue. Lol. Thanks Rangstrom. 

Nice choice on the Gade, annaw.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Great choice, annaw! Scary enough, I had my eye on Gade's E minor quartet for my next selection after I saw that it received a mention in Harold C. Schonberg's _The Lives of the Great Composers_ (superb book BTW) as "something of a masterpiece." I listened to it and was quite impressed. Seems like Gade has a unique voice that is worth hearing, and is up there with composers like Raff as an almost totally forgotten Romantic who was much more popular in his day than he is now. I shall look forward to getting more acquainted with this composer.


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## Rangstrom

annaw--I thought maybe you would go for Tubin or Tüür.


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## sbmonty

I enjoyed the Dutilleaux work. Any other recommendations of his other compositions? I'm completely new to him, but would like to explore further.
I'm listening to the Gade E minor right now. It appears the first movement was modified and the andantino con moto movement was discarded. This recording includes those two movements, appended following the work. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Allegro Con Brio

sbmonty said:


> I enjoyed the Dutilleux work. Any other recommendations of his other compositions? I'm completely new to him, but would like to explore further.


His 1st and 2nd symphonies, piano sonata, violin concerto (L'arbes des songes) and song cycle Correspondances are all excellent.


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## Rangstrom

My recording of the Gade E minor quartet is the Kontra Quartet Bis CD from 1991. Gade originally wrote a six movement work that was never published. The Kontra used an edition of five of the movements prepared by Asger Lund Christiansen, the cellist of the Copenhagen SQ. According to the Bis liner notes Christiansen "revised the part writing, phrasing and dynamics". That sounds pretty extensive. No mention as to why he dropped a movement.

The quartet is very nice as revised. The first movement is lively, the Andantino has a lovely tune that falls squarely into the cello's sweet spot, the following Scherzo is exuberant , the Allegretto (the movement not recorded by the Copenhagen) is a good old-fashioned menuetto with the Finale landing in Mendelssohn's faery realm. In all a fun quartet if not a masterpiece. A menuetto following a scherzo is a little unusual so I can see why some may choose to drop it. Doing do changes the vibe of the work into a more traditional romantic quartet form, much as the later D major, op. 63 (a strong showing).

I know nothing about the ignored 6th movement, but I suspect it might be a slower movement between the scherzo and the menuetto. The resulting work would be more of a divertimento which could be a hit performed by a string orchestra.

Although the Kontra gets some bad press at times I've enjoyed a lot of their work, especially the effort of recording all the quartets of Holmboe (another Dane). They can be scrappy and aggressive, but not here. The playing has the requisite lightness of touch. The sound is up to the Bis high standard. 

i really enjoyed visiting this work again. Thanks for the selection


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## Merl

^The, problem I've had with a few Kontra recordings in the past has not been the playing but reverberant acoustics I'm looking forward to hear if the same is true of this recording.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> ^The, problem I've had with a few Kontra recordings in the past has not been the playing but reverberant acoustics I'm looking forward to hear if the same is true of this recording.


The sound is not exactly top-notch but the playing is great. And if I recall correctly, it also has Anton Kontra playing his Strad.


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## Merl

annaw said:


> The sound is not exactly top-notch but the playing is great. And if I recall correctly, it also has Anton Kontra playing his Strad.


You're not selling it to me, annaw. Lol


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## annaw

Merl said:


> You're not selling it to me, annaw. Lol


You know, I at least tried lol. But I don't think the Copenhagen recording has a particularly great sound either. I have to see if I can find the MidVest's recording somewhere.


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## annaw

Rangstrom said:


> annaw--I thought maybe you would go for Tubin or Tüür.


I'm Estonian but also Scandinavian (a Finn) .

For some reason, I even didn't think about checking out if Tubin or Tüür have written any string quartets. Just listened to Tüür's 1st quartet - a very captivating work - and I'm currently listening to Tubin's quartet, which is so far thoroughly enjoyable. I'm surprised I haven't heard these works before. Thank you for bringing these up!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Scary enough, I had my eye on Gade's E minor quartet for my next selection after I saw that it received a mention in Harold C. Schonberg's _The Lives of the Great Composers_ (superb book BTW) as "something of a masterpiece." I listened to it and was quite impressed.


Sorry, the F minor quartet was actually the one that earned the "something of a masterpiece" label from Schonberg. That one's good too! So this week's E minor quartet was new to me. I very much enjoy this music, but I must say that I don't find it particularly challenging or stimulating, very middle-of-the-road Romantic fare. But there's nothing wrong with that at all and the work is undoubtedly well-composed. In fact the five-movement structure and the very relaxed character of the music (seems like most of it is in the major even though it's called an E minor quartet) reminds me of a serenade. I doubt this will be a work that will be very memorable for me - there really are not many "signature moments" - but I have yet to come across a piece in this thread that has not been worth hearing and this is no exception. The Kontra recording appears to be the only complete one on Primephonic, and it is a lovely committed performance even though plagued with the same bright recording quality that disliked in their Nielsen. As annaw mentions, the Copenhagen recording is also available but seems to be bizarrely missing the Allegretto.


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## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sorry, the F minor quartet was actually the one that earned the "something of a masterpiece" label from Schonberg. That one's good too! So this week's E minor quartet was new to me. I very much enjoy this music, but I must say that I don't find it particularly challenging or stimulating, very middle-of-the-road Romantic fare. But there's nothing wrong with that at all and the work is undoubtedly well-composed. In fact the five-movement structure and the very relaxed character of the music (seems like most of it is in the major even though it's called an E minor quartet) reminds me of a serenade. I doubt this will be a work that will be very memorable for me - there really are not many "signature moments" - but I have yet to come across a piece in this thread that has not been worth hearing and this is no exception. The Kontra recording appears to be the only complete one on Primephonic, and it is a lovely committed performance even though plagued with the same bright recording quality that disliked in their Nielsen. As annaw mentions, the Copenhagen recording is also available but seems to be bizarrely missing the Allegretto.


Yup, the F minor quartet was the other one I was considering as well but if I recall correctly then Gade composed it as a "training" piece and thus I chose to take the E minor quartet. I do really recommend listening to the Danish quartet's recording of "Willkommen und Abschied". That's in my opinion the most intense among his string quartet works and is closely connected with Goethe's poem. I think you are absolutely correct in saying that it's not the most virtuosic Romantic quartet and this has been noted about Gade's only published Op. 63 string quartet, too - it is composed with great craftsmanship but is relatively easy otherwise. Nevertheless, it was partly my intention to choose something very easily approachable. Firstly, I thought it would be a good quartet to choose after the more modern (but marvellous) Dutilleux and, secondly, my life has recently been so hectic that I wasn't really in the mood for some of the more modern/contemporary quartets that I had also thought about. I chose to save those for later .


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## Allegro Con Brio

This week the choice will go to *SearsPoncho*, and then we are at the end of our second round and are ready, if you can believe it, to start a third round of nominations! Does this look good for a tentative third round schedule...?

Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1050
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Simplicissimus
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Iota
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho

*On standby (we haven't seen any of these folks in some time - if any of you wants to pop in and have your name added to the list, just do so and you'll be inserted into the rotation!*
Vicente
flamencosketches
Euler
Enthusiast
Shosty
Eramire156
DTut
MissKittysMom
20centrfuge
TurnaboutVox


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## SearsPoncho

Alright, alright, alright... (Matthew McConaughey voice)

The site seems to be working fine again. Tomorrow I will submit my string quartet for the week. We're getting back to the big boys, guys and gals.


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## annaw

SearsPoncho said:


> Alright, alright, alright... (Matthew McConaughey voice)
> 
> The site seems to be working fine again. Tomorrow I will submit my string quartet for the week. *We're getting back to the big boys*, guys and gals.


I won't let you get away with this :lol:.

Gade was a lot "bigger boy" than we consider him to be today, even if he wasn't the crème de la crème of string quartet composers.


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## SearsPoncho

annaw said:


> I won't let you get away with this :lol:.
> 
> Gade was a lot "bigger boy" than we consider him to be today, even if he wasn't the crème de la crème of string quartet composers.


Not meant to disparage Gade. I just meant a household name...well, at least in sophisticated households.


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## annaw

SearsPoncho said:


> Not meant to disparage Gade. I just meant a household name...well, at least in sophisticated households.


Nah, I was just joking . I hadn't heard about Gade myself before I started looking for a quartet to choose. I'm excited to see what's your pick.


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## Merl

After having a brief sulk about the site being crappily slow I got to listen to the Gade. It's a nice quartet but doesn't have much to make it particularly memorable (sorry annaw). I do have the Kontra so played it for the first time in ages. For me the 4th movement is pointless. It adds very little to the quartet and doesn't sit right. It works far better as a 4 movement work. As I said, it's a pleasant quartet. I'm worried about Searsponcho's pick. I fear it may require a huge amount of listening from me. Lol.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> After having a brief sulk about the site being crappily slow I got to listen to the Gade. It's a nice quartet but doesn't have much to make it particularly memorable (sorry annaw). I do have the Kontra so played it for the first time in ages. For me the 4th movement is pointless. It adds very little to the quartet and doesn't sit right. It works far better as a 4 movement work. As I said, it's a pleasant quartet. I'm worried about Searsponcho's pick. I fear it may require a huge amount of listening from me. Lol.


Don't worry, it will not. You probably already know it, or at least another more famous quartet by this well-known composer, and it's pretty easy to wrap your head around it.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Don't worry, it will not. You probably already know it, or at least another more famous quartet by this well-known composer, and it's pretty easy to wrap your head around it.


Intriguing. 

...........


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## SearsPoncho

We haven't had any Dvorak...

This week's string quartet is DVORAK'S STRING QUARTET #14, Op. 105.

Dvorak's final string quartet is my favorite Dvorak quartet. There's an Op.106 quartet, but it was written before the Op. 105. Both string quartets were written in 1895 and coincided with Dvorak's return to his homeland. I like the last six quartets, but everything just seems to come together in this final quartet. I also prefer the Czech/Slavonic Dvorak to the pre-Copland Americana of some of his most popular compositions. Is this quartet a return to his roots, or are there still some vestiges of his American style present? I'm interested in your opinions on this issue. I believe that this is also a musical return home.

As one would expect, this is late Romantic music using traditional classical forms. It's a generally sunny piece with a few darker moments and surprises.

The recording I listen to is a cd from a set by the Panocha Quartet. As I mentioned elsewhere, this is one of the most gorgeous-sounding string quartet recordings I've heard. I just wonder if it's too beautiful. Should there occasionally be a more rustic edge?

For those interested in comparative listening, there should be plenty of available recordings led by other great Czech quartets to keep you busy. Here's The Panocha Quartet kicking things off:




 The recording I have is on the Supraphon label, not the label listed on this Youtube video. I don't know if it's the same recording.

For the entire quartet, here's the Prague String Quartet: 




I hope you all enjoy listening to Dvorak's final string quartet! 
**See Merl, you had nothing to worry about.


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## sbmonty

Excellent! I own the Panocha set as well. Great set. I'll give this one a spin this am. 
Thanks!!


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## Merl

I have the Stamitz, Prague and Panocha complete sets and a few single cds with others on (Vlach, etc) as the late Dvorak SQs are faves of mine too but I've already counted at least 37 separate recordings from different ensembles. The brilliant Panocha set is my go-to set for all the SQs but will it be top of the pile when I listen to all the others available? Damn you SP, I've got a lot of listening to do. Lol.


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## Merl

Already started relistening to this lot.


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> We haven't had any Dvorak...
> 
> This week's string quartet is DVORAK'S STRING QUARTET #14, Op. 105.
> 
> Dvorak's final string quartet is my favorite Dvorak quartet. There's an Op.106 quartet, but it was written before the Op. 105. Both string quartets were written in 1895 and coincided with Dvorak's return to his homeland. I like the last six quartets, but everything just seems to come together in this final quartet. I also prefer the Czech/Slavonic Dvorak to the pre-Copland Americana of some of his most popular compositions. Is this quartet a return to his roots, or are there still some vestiges of his American style present? I'm interested in your opinions on this issue. I believe that this is also a musical return home.
> 
> As one would expect, this is late Romantic music using traditional classical forms. It's a generally sunny piece with a few darker moments and surprises.
> 
> The recording I listen to is a cd from a set by the Panocha Quartet. As I mentioned elsewhere, this is one of the most gorgeous-sounding string quartet recordings I've heard. I just wonder if it's too beautiful. Should there occasionally be a more rustic edge?
> 
> For those interested in comparative listening, there should be plenty of available recordings led by other great Czech quartets to keep you busy. Here's The Panocha Quartet kicking things off:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The recording I have is on the Supraphon label, not the label listed on this Youtube video. I don't know if it's the same recording.
> 
> For the entire quartet, here's the Prague String Quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you all enjoy listening to Dvorak's final string quartet!
> **See Merl, you had nothing to worry about.


Good choice!

Dc,me,cn


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> I have the Stamitz, Prague and Panocha complete sets and a few single cds with others on (Vlach, etc) as the late Dvorak SQs are faves of mine too but I've already counted at least 37 separate recordings from different ensembles. The brilliant Panocha set is my go-to set for all the SQs but will it be top of the pile when I listen to all the others available? Damn you SP, I've got a lot of listening to do. Lol.
> 
> View attachment 147417


Merl,

You don't have to listen to all that! I appreciate your commitment, but perhaps you could just listen to a couple Czech quartets and compare them to a couple non-Czechs (e.g., Emersons, Lindsays, Cleveland, etc.).


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## Allegro Con Brio

What an excellent choice! Dvorak is certainly one of the most prolific string quartet composers that we haven’t done yet, and one of my favorite composers of chamber music. Only problem for me is that all of the vintage Czech recordings (Panocha, Vlach, etc.) are on Supraphon and therefore not on streaming. I’ll see what I can scrounge up on YouTube.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I love Dvorak. Looking forward to listening to this.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What an excellent choice! Dvorak is certainly one of the most prolific string quartet composers that we haven't done yet, and one of my favorite composers of chamber music. Only problem for me is that all of the vintage Czech recordings (Panocha, Vlach, etc.) are on Supraphon and therefore not on streaming. I'll see what I can scrounge up on YouTube.


Both Panocha Quartet recordings (the Supraphon one from the complete box and the later Camerata one) are on Spotify. Btw, I'm gonna skip-listen quite a few of the less we'll-known ones, SP, and yes I will probably focus on the differences between the Czech quartets and the rest. A certain critic reckons that only the Czechs can play Czech SQs competently. Hmmm... Let's see.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So insomnia took me last night which gave me an opportunity to listen to the two recordings I have: Takacs and Panocha. Both versions are excellent. I love how tuneful Dvorák's music is. This is a lovely work.


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## Merl

Two days of Dvorak listening here. I should start by saying that I love the 14th quartet but I've honestly never found THE perfect performance for me, no mater how many recordings I've heard but hopefully that will be remedied soon. Listening again to the *Panocha* performance it's exceptionally well-played and its from a great cycle but its not one of their strongest performances in the box, as lovely as it is. The *Takacs*' take on the 14th is also beautifully recorded and stunningly played yet it does sound slightly mannered and the stuttering start to the 2nd movement is not quite right for me, even though I love their more powerful approach elsewhere. Revisiting the *Prague* Quartet's recording I like their rather old-fashioned approach but the recording is still harsh on the ears with prolonged listening even if they do have a fluid style that is very appealing. The *Vlach* Quartet's Naxos recordings are generally very decent (they did an excellent American quartet) but again this needs a little more dynamic tension in slower moments. Still a decent recording, though. Today I finished off my listening via the the *Smetana* Quartet's live BBC recording on Spotify. It's an interesting recording and the playing is of great warmth and intensity yet the rather distant acoustics work slightly against it and there is some lack of cohesiveness in ensemble. The biggest find today was actually from a performance I already had on the hard drive but had never played. The *Janacek* quartet recorded this one in 1956 (its on the DG complete recordings set) and its a tour de force. The Janaceks are beautifully recorded considering this is from the 50s but its the playing that's the winner. Listen to the ensemble playing and dynamics in the 2nd movement and you'll know what I mean. Its got umph, beauty, some charming vibrato, drive and it 'bounces' . This is SQ playing of a terrific standard and a performance I will be returning to again soon (its now on the car USB so probably tomorrow).


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## sbmonty

Dvořák: String Quartet No. 14
Janáček Quartet

Recommended by Merl. Lovely so far. This is such a great work. Will listen to 12 through 15 later this week.


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> Dvořák: String Quartet No. 14
> Janáček Quartet
> 
> Recommended by Merl. Lovely so far. This is such a great work. Will listen to 12 through 15 later this week.


I found that Janacek by fluke whilst looking through the HD. I really need to listen to the rest of that set some time. Think I've only played the Beethoven and Haydn from it (which were recommended by someone else). Listening to both the Dvorak 10th and 14th on there they're both glorious.

Today I got through another couple and found some nice surprises. Firstly, I'd like to backtrack a little on the *Takacs* recording. I listened to the 2nd movement again (the one I was less convinced by) and found it much more rewarding today. Really enjoyed them on my return to this recording (thankfully as I have this one on CD). The, *Alban Berg* (studio account) play with superb technical precision and a fair bit of force. There's is a strong performance but perhaps they miss a little of the tender Czech touches that the *Stamitz* quartet bring to the party. Although (IMO) the Stamitz are rarely a match for the Panocha in thir Dvorak cycle this is an impressive performance on a par with the Panocha from a set I've had for many year's. Nice! Although decent I didn't find much to distinguish the *Wihan* and *Vanbrugh* recordings on Spotify. Nothing bad but it didn't set my world on fire. The *Guarneris*, on the other hand, play with a vibrant tone and lovely expression. I need to play this one again as it really impressed me on first listen. Another I thoroughly enjoyed was the *Delme* quartet who serve up a charming, rich toned account. The recording may not be as impressive (a tiny bit congested in places) but they play so gloriously you can't help but warm to their vision. They play the 1st movement particularly well. The *Lindsays* don't hang about here and at first I wasn't charmed by their quick pace but after a second listen, this morning, I started to warm to them. Another very good account. More to follow tomorrow.


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## Rangstrom

Whew, I'm glad Dvorák (why does the win10 task bar keyboard lack diacritical marks for r?) didn't drop to the third round. I considered offering his 3rd quartet as the longest quartet ever--at 70 minutes--until a little voice in my head suggested checking on Feldman.

I have the early 70s recording by the Prague String Quartet on LP and as part of the DG Collectors Edition of all his quartets on 9 CDs and The Emerson String Quartet 3 CD set recorded in 2009, also on DG. The Prague sound quality is what you would expect from the era, but the later Emerson sounds quite a lot better. Performances are more evenly matched with the Emerson with a slight lead.

Needless to say, I enjoyed listening to a top drawer quartet by one of the greatest chamber music composers of all time.


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## SearsPoncho

I've enjoyed reading all the comments and comparisons between different quartets on the Dvorak 14th. Merl, I'll have to listen to the Janacek Quartet. Other than the Panocha, I've only heard the Prague St. Qt. and the Cleveland. I like the Czech swag the Prague bring, although the sound is a bit dry. I'm very interested to hear what you think of the Cleveland Quartet. I gave it a test spin late last night and I think it will elicit either love or hate. One thing I got out of it was that the Clevelanders really sound like they're enjoying themselves and the music. Then again, it might have been the wine (Hey, it was medicinal for insomnia. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.)


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## Allegro Con Brio

One big initial thought as I’ve started to get acquainted with this quartet is that it is a lot more harmonically adventurous than your average Dvorak. The first 7 seconds or so (OK, I know, not long, but still) of the first movement sound like a Shostakovich quartet. There seems to be an element of tension between dark exploratory elements and Dvorak’s signature carefree tunes throughout the whole work. The construction reminded me a bit of Schubert’s style - big sprawling structures, adventures into daring harmonic territory, mixed up with heavenly melodies. Especially liking the finale so far. Will definitely give it a couple more listens - if I can find the Janacek and Panocha recordings I think I’ll be happy, as the Vlach on Naxos was very well-played but a bit sterile, I thought.


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## Merl

Rangstrom said:


> I have the early 70s recording by the Prague String Quartet on LP and as part of the DG Collectors Edition of all his quartets on 9 CDs and The Emerson String Quartet 3 CD set recorded in 2009, also on DG. The Prague sound quality is what you would expect from the era, but the later Emerson sounds quite a lot better. Performances are more evenly matched with the Emerson with a slight lead.
> 
> Needless to say, I enjoyed listening to a top drawer quartet by one of the greatest chamber music composers of all time.


Rangstrom, the first recording I listened to today was the *Emerson* one and I found it highly convincing. It might not be for everyone as its meaty, beaty, big and bouncy and boy that cello sound rocks! Even when they need to step down a notch they are equally adept at doing so and play with a lovely dynamic range in more mellow moments. A great start for today. On the lighter side of performances the *Zemlinsky* and *Chilingirian* quartets were more subtle and the Zemlinskys, in particular, handle the 14th perhaps a little too delicately for my tastes. Its not a bad performance but when I wanted them to dig in a little in the 2nd and 4th movements the power supply wasn't there. The Chilingirians were similar in their vision but their more lyrical approach was more successful and exhibited better ensemble playing yet I still wanted a bit more umph at key moments. Still a decent enough recording.

Every now and again in this thread a performance comes along that just resonates with me where the performance, the style, the sound and the whole big picture just gets you. This happened today with the *Szymanowski* Quartet's terrific recording (available on Spotify, thankfully). Killer! Terrific sound in a great acoustic with just the right amount of subtlety, charm and raw power in equal measure. This one has the lot for me. If you have a streaming service with it on, give it a go. Ignore a certain critic and his 'only Czech quartets can play Czech quartet music' nonsense. This young Polish ensemble rip up that ridiculous statement. Listen to the glorious, plucky violins and the dancing rhythms in the 2nd movement. Check out the vivacity of playing in the finale and how these excellent musicians close out the SQ. Wow. Loved this one.


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## Merl

Quiet night, tonight so I squeezed in a few more readings. The *Psophos* quartet play with great style but are sadly let down by a close-up dry sound. I sampled a bit of the *Cassatt* performance but they were clearly not up to the task and the recording is thin and rather nasty so further listening wasn't needed. The *Carmina* quartet on Denon were interesting but their speedy pacing in the 2nd movement spoiled it for me. The *Vogler* on CPO were recorded beautifully and have an excellent tone. I enjoyed their account of the whole SQ and their slower moments were particularly engaging. Finally I tried the *Melos* account and enjoyed their brisk performance. Theyre not afraid to dig in hard when needed and they are recorded with a full, rich tone that is very pleasing to the ear. A winning performance.


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## Rangstrom

Merl, glad to see that you enjoyed the Emerson performance. The Emerson SQ and Tokyo SQ played at Ravinia (the summer home of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) many times and I was lucky enough to be there for most of them. Are they two of my favorite quartets because I saw them live so many times or did I see them live so many times because they are two of my favorite quartets? Hard to say, but I can't deny my bias in favor of their performances.

For those streaming performances, are they HD or mp3 quality or does it vary? I know that Youtube's sound quality isn't very good (at least on my computer setup) and I wonder if streaming distorts what you are hearing. An example would be the Kontra recording of the Gade. The Bis CD sounds fine to me, but some have noted a harshness in the streamed version (site specific?).

After 50+ years of collecting "hard copies", investing in quality sound reproduction equipment and setting up a comfortable listening room, I'm just not that interested in streaming. After years of early adapting I've become a dinosaur.


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## Knorf

Rangstrom said:


> After 50+ years of collecting "hard copies", investing in quality sound reproduction equipment and setting up a comfortable listening room, I'm just not that interested in streaming. After years of early adapting I've become a dinosaur.


The NY Times recently ran an op-ed about this very thing:
"No, I Am Not Getting Rid of My Thousands of CDs"

Streaming doesn't do it for me sufficiently well for me to replace my disc collection, not for consistency, convenience, nor quality, so I still buy CDs.

I actually do use streaming services and You Tube occasionally (I'm not boycotting them!), and I have purchased downloads. Just quite less, and No, I Am Not Getting Rid of My Thousands of CDs.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Rangstrom said:


> For those streaming performances, are they HD or mp3 quality or does it vary? I know that Youtube's sound quality isn't very good (at least on my computer setup) and I wonder if streaming distorts what you are hearing. An example would be the Kontra recording of the Gade. The Bis CD sounds fine to me, but some have noted a harshness in the streamed version (site specific?).


I pay extra for CD quality streaming on Primephonic ($14.99 instead of $9.99 a month), and it is more than worth it. Paired with my Sennheiser headphones I have all I need. It's possible that there could still be sound quality differences between the transfers and the CDs, but I've never heard classical music from an actual CD in my life, so I wouldn't know:lol:


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## Merl

Rangstrom, the quality of streamed music is pretty good on Spotify but whenever I can I'd much prefer to play stuff on cd through my big speakers. Thee are occasions where I've judged recordings on the stream and then got the cd only to discover the recording sounds much better but on the whole I'm more than happy. The biggest problem is sometimes with remastered sets, where you sometimes are told you are getting the remastered set when in reality you aren't but that's getting rarer these days. I find YouTube clips way more problematic as tspmetimrs the rip for the upload is very poor and distorts what I want to hear. Also, at 128k I find that you lose some midrange from the recording and especially bass. However, even these clips give you a damn good idea what kind of performance this is.

With that in mind I visited some recordings earlier, via Spotify. The first was one that's being doing the rounds for a few years on a few budget labels and then turned up remastered on Naxos. I expected the *Moyzes* quartet to be a pretty underwhelming recording but it's actually very well played and recorded and I found this a very satisfying recording, indeed . Whilst the grinch may be trying to steal Christmas I think he also stole the bass from the *Barchet* Quartet's wiry and thin 1954 mono performance. Some mono recordings sound really good. This isn't one of them. The playing is decent enough but it's not special or quirky in any way and others do it way better and with sound I can actually listen to. I'm afraid the Barchet only lasted one movement before I stopped playing it. The *Alban Berg*'s live recording has more of a Czech lilt than their studio account and has a lovely warmth of ensemble but the soundstage is not close enough. It is a very good effort though. I have part-listened to a couple more on Youtube and will comment on them later.


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## SearsPoncho

Rangstrom said:


> Merl, glad to see that you enjoyed the Emerson performance. The Emerson SQ and Tokyo SQ played at Ravinia (the summer home of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) many times and I was lucky enough to be there for most of them. Are they two of my favorite quartets because I saw them live so many times or did I see them live so many times because they are two of my favorite quartets? Hard to say, but I can't deny my bias in favor of their performances.
> 
> For those streaming performances, are they HD or mp3 quality or does it vary? I know that Youtube's sound quality isn't very good (at least on my computer setup) and I wonder if streaming distorts what you are hearing. An example would be the Kontra recording of the Gade. The Bis CD sounds fine to me, but some have noted a harshness in the streamed version (site specific?).
> 
> After 50+ years of collecting "hard copies", investing in quality sound reproduction equipment and setting up a comfortable listening room, I'm just not that interested in streaming. After years of early adapting I've become a dinosaur.


I'm also a big fan of the Tokyo String Quartet. I've seen them several times.

It's cds for me. I want the sound quality and I hear that most, if not all, artists get ripped off with the streaming services. I'll sample some things on Youtube, but if I like it, I buy the cd.


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## Knorf

Speaking as a musician with label release commercial recordings out there, I can confirm that the artist royalties from streaming services are unbelievably terrible. Physical recordings and purchased direct downloads are the best, radio plays second, and everthing else is so far behind you'd need the Hubble telescope to see them.


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## Merl

I finally finished listening to the *Cleveland* quartet recording and was very impressed with it. Whoever ripped it and uploaded it to YouTube did a great job. The bass was full and clear and the playing is of an excellent standard. I'd definitely love to hear this on CD. It seems like a quality recording and I don't think many people would hate it, SearsPoncho. It's not mannered or overly idiosyncratic. Super stuff and similar in realisation to the Emersons. Also finished listening to the *Smetana's *56 (LP rip) and 65 performances. Both are fine. The 56 recording is more idiosyncratic (they seem broader in slow moments and quicker in the 2nd and 4th movements) but that doesn't count against it and these are well-recorded and interesting accounts. My biggest gripe with the 65 recording is the playing is a bit 'jerky' to the point it sounds slightly mannered.

I've just got to listen to the Panocha's 2nd recording of the Dvorak (from 2003) later and then I'll sum up. I desperately wanted to hear the Hagen recording but it's not available on Spotify (that I know) and is desperately OOP. Shame. If anyone finds it on YouTube (I couldn't) please post a link.


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## Allegro Con Brio

We're back to the top of the order, and I haven't even started deliberating about what I'll choose. In all likelihood, it will be something short and merry to fit in well with the holiday season.

As for the Dvořák, I took up Merl's recommendation and sampled the Szymanowski Quartet. Wow, is it great! Like he says, it's just as expressive as the old-school ensembles but with the benefit of sterling sound quality. The Haydn on the same disc sounded great too. I also gave the Janacek Quartet on DG a spin, which is definitely worth hearing for the "authentic" folksy Czech flavor.

Here is our complete list of quartets listened to so far through two rounds and ten months...

*First Round*

23 Feb: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
1 Mar: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
8 Mar: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15 Mar: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22 Mar: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29 Mar: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
5 Apr: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12 Apr: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1050)
19 Apr: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
20 Apr: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
3 May: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10 May: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17 May: Ravel - String Quartet in F Major (Eramire156)
24 May: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31 May: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
7 June: Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14 June: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21 June: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28 June: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
5 July: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12 July: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19 July: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26 July: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
2 Aug: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

*Second Round*

9 Aug: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16 Aug: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
23 Aug: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30 Aug: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
6 Sept: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
13 Sept: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
20 Sept: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
26 Sept: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
4 Oct: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11 Oct: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)

18 Oct: Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
25 Oct: Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)
1 Nov: Rihm - Et Lux for string quartet and vocals (calvinpv)
8 Nov: Ives - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
15 Nov: Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2 (Rangstrom)
22 Nov: Bax - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
29 Nov: Dutilleux - Ainsi la nuit (starthrower)
6 Dec: Gade - String Quartet in E Minor (annaw)
13 Dec: Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14 (SearsPoncho)


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## Merl

The last one I heard earlier today was the Panocha's 2nd recording of the quartet from 2003 (the original was 1983). Its definitely better than the original Panocha recording and benefits from better sound but it's not just the sound. The performance is definitely livelier and more engaging. An excellent 14th quartet.


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## Merl

Thanks SP for picking Dvorak's 14rh quartet, this week, aa you've helped me find a few gems that I'll soon be returning to. Again, there were plenty of interesting performances to consume and I've tried to sum _my_ favourites up below. Shame I never got to hear the Hagen recording. I was looking forward to that one. Anyway, here goes. I hope you folks have found a recording you didn't know previously, too.

Impressive

Panocha 83
Stamitz
Smetana 56
Vogler
Lindsays
Delme
ABQ (studio and live) 
Moyzes
Guarneri

More Special

Melos
Panocha 2003
Emerson
Cleveland
Takacs

*A Pure Delight*

Janacek Quartet









So glad I discovered this one. Its a quite delightful performance that's charming and articulate in equal measure. A hair-width away from the top and superb.

*MY PICK*

*Szymanowski Quartet*









As I stated earlier in the thread this performance is just so organic and natural. It combines passion, power and delicacy in a lovely account that almost feels like they're making it up as they go along. Nothing sounds planned or mannered and this is top of my purchase list but for now I'll settle with listening in Spotify. I can't recommend this one enough. As for Hurwitz claiming that only Czechs can play Czech quartets impressively.. . well all I can say is "Boll*cks"!


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## SearsPoncho

Thanks, Merl! I'll have to hear the Szymanowski Quartet's recording. I already knew and enjoyed the Panocha and the Prague St.Qt., and I found the Cleveland extremely enjoyable. As I might have previously indicated, I'm not sure if it's very idiomatic, but I love it and, as you might say, it's "meaty, beaty, big and bouncy." It gave me a feeling inside I can't explain. We appreciate your posts and insight.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Thanks, Merl! I'll have to hear the Szymanowski Quartet's recording. I already knew and enjoyed the Panocha and the Prague St.Qt., and I found the Cleveland extremely enjoyable. As I might have previously indicated, I'm not sure if it's very idiomatic, but I love it and, as you might say, it's "meaty, beaty, big and bouncy." It gave me a feeling inside I can't explain. We appreciate your posts and insight.


Yeah i listened to all the Cleveland disc. Their approach works great in the 14th performance but their American quartet is less successful on the same disc. Sometimes happens. I found their 14th just so appealing though. Played with great verve and, as you said, SP, it sounds like they're enjoying themselves.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Alright, well, a lot of you are going to be ready to call me "Boring ACB" after this one, because I'm not going for anything obscure or off-the-charts here. I considered doing so - if you must know, my second choice was either Berg's Lyric Suite or Webern's quartet because I thought it might be appropriate to cap off a year where I fell in love with the Second Viennese School - but in the end it's Christmas week, and I hope everyone will be able to enjoy some sort of time with family and friends in this most unusual of years. So I wanted to keep it relatively short, sweet, and uninvolving because I won't be listening to _quite_ as much music as I usually do this week. Yeah, I know we've just had the tuneful Gade and Dvorak, but, oh well, new adventures will happen in the new year. Also, this week was a certain someone's 250th birthday, so...

*Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16 in F Major (1826)*

Beethoven's final quartet has always struck me as the perfect anti-statement after the four that preceded it, which are, IMO, the apotheosis of all quartet literature. It's like at the end of the day, after all the eternal heights that he scaled in his late works, he sat back, wiped off his hands, and decided to call it a life by returning to the roots of the Classical period that he had just singlehandedly rejected. The "Must it be? It must be!" in the finale seems more like a witticism than any sort of philosophical inquiry. This was, in fact, the last complete work that he ever composed, six months before his death.

I. Allegretto (F major, sonata form)
II. Vivace (F major, scherzo/trio)
III. Lento assai, cantante e tranquillo (D♭ major, theme and variations)
IV. "Der schwer gefaßte Entschluß". Grave, ma non troppo tratto ("Muss es sein?") - Allegro ("Es muss sein!") - Grave, ma non troppo tratto - Allegro (F minor - F major)

A short listening guide can be found on AllMusic.

Obviously there are oodles of Beethoven quartet cycles out there, so I'll be focusing on a few ensembles that I am not familiar with in Beethoven so I can expand my horizons a bit. Trout did a recommended recordings list for the 14th quartet, but all of these ensembles have recorded at least all the late quartets, and it might be a helpful resource so here you go:

1. Busch Quartet (1936)
2. Végh Quartet (1974)
3. Takács Quartet (2004)
4. Alban Berg Quartet (1989)
5. Quartetto Italiano (1969)
6. Juilliard String Quartet (1960)
7. Yale Quartet (1971)
8. Smetana Quartet (1971)
9. Lindsay String Quartet (1984)
10. Budapest String Quartet (1942)

I hope, despite my "safe" choice, that we can have a bit of fun with this. I think 2020 ought to end just like Beethoven's career - lots of struggle, uncertainty, and unforeseen horizons, but an unpretentious return to basics at the end of it all. I sincerely wish everyone a very happy holiday season! Well, maybe Merl won't have one since I've forced him to listen to, according to my streaming service, all 95 recordings of this quartet this week...better get busy, my friend! We're all expecting a top 30 ranking by next Saturday:lol:


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## SearsPoncho

Yes!

ACB: Never, ever apologize for choosing Beethoven. As far as I'm concerned, I would happily participate in sixteen consecutive weeks of Beethoven's quartets. I have cds of Op.135 from the first six quartets on your list. This should be interesting and, yes, Merl will have his hands full. 

Happy holidays to you and yours!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Dude. Great pick. Thank you for picking something cool.


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## BlackAdderLXX

SearsPoncho said:


> Yes!
> 
> ACB: Never, ever apologize for choosing Beethoven. As far as I'm concerned, I would happily participate in sixteen consecutive weeks of Beethoven's quartets.


Agree on both points


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## Merl

This was the moment I was dreading but also looking forward to. I'm just glad it's not its not op. 18. There are stacks of recordings of the early quartets too! Thanks ACB. Lol. Luckily I'm off from Tuesday night so I might get through them if I'm lucky but I`ll have to be more concise but I can be pretty selective as I own a huge number of sets already that haven't got strong 16ths. I can tell you right now that my list will look nothing like Trout's rather predictable list (there's two recordings on there, straight away, that wouldn't even make it into my top 30 recordings!) However there are some great ones there too. This should be interesting. I'll start listening today. Good lord! 

Thankfully, it's one of the shorter quartets (although some quartets drag it out to almost 30 minutes). The average is around 25 mins with the quicker performances around 22 minutes. As I have a ridiculous number of complete sets (some if which I'm very familiar with) this may turn into a marathon so bear with me. I was gonna say Beethoven never heard it being performed but that's just cruel. Lol. His great friends the Schuppanzigh Quartet knocked out the first performance a year after Beethoven's death.

I think I'm going to have to raid the hard drive later and get some recordings on my car USB.


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## Merl

Right, I'm going to kick this off and throw some recordings under the bus, straight away, not because they're bad but there are so many better ones out there that these are uncompetitive for me. Some of you may baulk at some of these and one in particular but it's what I think so don't shoot me. I also have to get rid of a lot of recordings quickly so this will help me focus on the ones I prefer. So here goes..... These are out for me....

*Vegh 52* - the Veghs did it all far better in their later recordings and without this dull, flat sound. 
*Taneyev* - Too slow and dull
*Hollywood (live)* - terrible sound
*Medici* - a very plain performance. Too indistinctive. 
*Hungarian* - boxy recording
*Budapest (live) *- some flubs, scratchy violins and terrible recorded sound complete with dropouts. 
*Budapest (stereo) *- some very distinctive playing but bad intonation spoils it for me. 
*Barylli* - haven't got a clue how to play the late quartets. Much better in the earlies

And finally I'm going to address the elephant in the room and this one is VERY contentious as I know some of you think this is THE performance to have. The *Busch*'s legendary 1936 performances may be heaven to many but I'm afraid they've never floated my boat. For all the undoubted technical skill I've never got past the horrid sound (and yes I've heard every remaster you can think of). It may seem like sacrilege to some but it's not just the sound. Interpretively I prefer others. Right I've got that one outta the way. I expect a backlash from some but I don't care, tbh. As I said earlier, these are not (mostly) performances I dislike. I just much prefer others and want to focus on those ones. .


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## Merl

Fortunately I've found my old reviews of op. 135 that I contributed to a music blog 5 years ago so I'll delve into those and do some relistening and comparing and contrasting of newer recordings too. Hence, I'm also going to leave out the *Vanbrugh* and *Brodsky* recordings. Again both are perfectly decent but the Brodskys are better in op. 132 and the Vanbrughs in the early quartets. The *Fine Arts* Quartet are well regarded in the late quartets but I don't feel they handle the dynamic contrasts as well as others. It's a beautiful approach but personally I want more clout from my Beethoven recordings. The *Pascals* have some intonation issues, the *Endellion* are too slow and lax in this one and the *Amadeus* quartet's first violin has a quite coarse sound that I've never found pleasing across the whole cycle. More to follow.


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## sbmonty

Excellent choice! I was hoping we could return to Beethoven again soon. Thanks ACB! Looking forward to Merl's summary of this one very much as well. 
Happy and safe holidays to all.


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## Mandryka

The last time I listened to this strange quartet -- is it a return to Haydn values? -- Hagen seemed to have bitten it off more thoughtfully than any other ensemble I knew -- there are at least three recordings by them, Myrios, DG and a DVD. DVD especially good IMO, may be on YouTube, looks like there’s some performance from them there.


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## Rangstrom

I almost never listen to the 16th outside of a survey of all the late quartets, so I will enjoy letting it stand on its own merits. From my recordings I'll take on the Budapest (studio 1940), Smetana (1985), Emerson (1995) and Tokyo (2007).


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## Merl

Much as I love the *Italiano*'s set they still take the 2nd movement too slowly for me so the rhythms don't dance. Their playing is glorious but I prefer others in this quartet. The *Juilliards* from 63 are dogged by iffy sound and are interpretively not strong enough. Alternatively the *LaSalle* quartet play beautifully but the heavy use of vibrato gets a bit wearing in this one (it needs a lighter touch) so it doesn't make the shortlist even though I like ot. I feel the same about the *Melos' *' 1984 recording which is quite lovely but is over-reliant on vibrato. Another recording I'm ruling out (even though I love their RCA set) is the *Guarneri* quartet who take the 3rd movement way too sluggishly. I love their sound and much of the cycle but whilst this performance works on the set it falls down when compared to others . Another one that doesn't make my 'best of' list, but is decent enough, is the *Leipziger* quartet (another cycle I admire) who strangely speed up in the 2nd movement and spoil the performance. I'm ruling out the *Alexander*'s first Arte Nova recording of this quartet as I feel its better recorded and played on the Foghorn set but again this is a very fine version.

I still have plenty more from my old notes to add and then I'll say which ones I really like (I've just listened to a cracker I didn't have) and then narrow down from there.

Btw, Mandryka, I didn't know about a 3rd Hagen recording. I know the ones from 1990 anf 2012 but didn't know of another. I'll have to look for that. Thanks!


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## Mandryka

Just looking over my notes, which go back to 2014, apart from Hagen, the ones which stood out for me when I was exploring this stuff were the first Juilliard, an RCA Victor Red Seal LP; The Janacek Quartet and a notch below a live one from The Budapest Quartet -- Library of Congress concert in 1941. I can let anyone who wants have the Juilliard and Janacek, which may be very hard to find. 

The strange one is Zehetmair Quartet, bumpy ride, I'm not sure if it is a terrible failure or a resounding success.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Just looking over my notes, which go back to 2014, apart from Hagen, the ones which stood out for me when I was exploring this stuff were the first Juilliard, an RCA Victor Red Seal LP; The Janacek Quartet and a notch below a live one from The Budapest Quartet -- Library of Congress concert in 1941. I can let anyone who wants have the Juilliard and Janacek, which may be very hard to find.
> 
> The strange one is Zehetmair Quartet, bumpy ride, I'm not sure if it is a terrible failure or a resounding success.


I'm just queuing the Zehetmair up right now, lol. Looks interesting and I love their other stuff on the whole. I have a stack of ones I don't know, to listen to tomorrow. 
I have the Janacek on the HD.


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## Knorf

The only thing I dislike about choosing Beethoven is that the conversation almost always devolves into fights about the "best" recording (or "worst," if you are someone like David Hurwitz). Best or worst is always such nonsense especially in repertoire like this; I just can't stand it. 

Luckily, this thread has seen relatively little of the deplorable, disrespectful kinds of arguing about recordings... Discussion of our own favorite recordings of course is and should be welcome, especially when recognizing the huge diversity of valid approaches and tastes. But let's remember no single ensemble will ever have all of the answers in repertoire such as this, and there is no objective top-10, nor bottom-10, as if Beethoven recordings had their own Premier League. 

I dearly love this quartet, Beethoven Op. 135, and found it fascinating from my earliest acquaintance. Is there any chance someone would join me in talking about what's notable about the piece?

At first blush, Op. 135 comes across as the most "Classical" of the late quartets, almost a throwback when compared to the audacious formal and expressive innovations of the others. And yet in some ways for me it is the most profound. I'll see whether I can work out why over the next few days.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> At first blush, Op. 135 comes across as the most "Classical" of the late quartets, almost a throwback when compared to the audacious formal and expressive innovations of the others. And yet in some ways for me it is the most profound. I'll see whether I can work out why over the next few days.


I totally agree, Knorfy. It's a real throwback quartet and that's why I love it. It sticks out in the late quartets for me and I like recordings that emphasise either the humour or the rhythmic qualities (esp in the 2nd movement). Apologies to anyone if what I've posted sounded like a best/worst set of comments or I'm coming across as a 'know it all'. I'm far from that - my knowledge of music theory is crap and I basically go on gut feelings. It's not ideal but it's all I have to work with. I'm just trying to find the perfect recording for ME in this one (and any other of these quartets in this weekly thread). I do have silly amounts of Beethoven SQ cycles but what I value in a cycle is not particularly what I'm looking for from an individual performance. Hence, even if I love the 1st Guarneri and the Italiano cycle it doesn't mean they're my first picks on this quartet and I've already ruled them out here. I'm relistening to these as much as possible and only touching briefly on why I'm not shortlisting certain performances. For those I really like I'll say further down the line why I do prefer them. It's not a case of best or worst but what resonates with me. I know others feel differently and I respect that. I'm one voice in many and these are merely my opinions. They're not set in stone and can change.


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## KenOC

Op. 135? I've always been partial to an old reading by the Hagen Quartet. Here's a more recent live video of the whole piece by the Hagen - they've still got the touch, obviously!


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Apologies to anyone if what I've posted sounded like a best/worst set of comments or I'm coming across as a 'know it all'.


You do not, as far as I am concerned, and also have nothing to apologize for. I should have made it more clear I wasn't referring to anyone in this thread.

In fact, one of the reasons I respect your opinion so much is that you are clear about representing your own tastes and not more than that, and that you hear and acknowledge the value in recordings that aren't your favorites. You are highly successful at approaching recordings you haven't heard before with an open ear, and you cut through all the bullshirt clichés that plague so many music reviews. Even as far as your own taste goes, you've founded it on clearly musical principles.

So if anything _I_ need to apologize for not making it clear I wasn't talking about you or others in this thread.


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## Mandryka

Re its classical qualities, I listened to the Hagen video of just the second movement today, with all its highly strung repetition I said to myself that Beethoven has nothing much to learn from Bernhard Lang or Julius Eastman! I was discussing the lack of melodic and harmonic interest in the first movement motifs of op 106 the other day, and it’s the same here - yet somehow op 135/ii seems like a real success to me and op 126/i in standard modern piano performances doesn’t. The string quartet movement is just the right length, and of course it uses instruments with lots of interesting partials in their sounds, and unfretted so there’s the possibility of all sorts of temperament/microtone decisions in the ensemble - the polar opposite of a solo piece for modern piano.

When people say classical I always think of Haydn, the second movement of op 135 is more like Stravinsky! Neo classical.


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## Merl

Thanks Knorfy. The reason I listen to so many different recordings is I get sick of all these 'best of' lists that are put forward by the likes of Hurwitz and the other critics. They are often based on bias, reputation and an agreed acceptance of what the 'best' recordings are and they don't listen without prejudice and that bugs me. I have no preconceptions of what I'm going to hear. I hope that comes across in what I write.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Thanks Knorfy. The reason I listen to so many different recordings is I get sick of all these 'best of' lists that are put forward by the likes of Hurwitz and the other critics. They are often based on bias, reputation and an agreed acceptance of what the 'best' recordings are and they don't listen without prejudice and that bugs me. I have no preconceptions of what I'm going to hear. I hope that comes across in what I write.


Absolutely it does. I'm with you. Hear, hear!


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## SearsPoncho

Knorf said:


> The only thing I dislike about choosing Beethoven is that the conversation almost always devolves into fights about the "best" recording (or "worst," if you are someone like David Hurwitz). Best or worst is always such nonsense especially in repertoire like this; I just can't stand it.
> 
> Luckily, this thread has seen relatively little of the deplorable, disrespectful kinds of arguing about recordings... Discussion of our own favorite recordings of course is and should be welcome, especially when recognizing the huge diversity of valid approaches and tastes. But let's remember no single ensemble will ever have all of the answers in repertoire such as this, and there is no objective top-10, nor bottom-10, as if Beethoven recordings had their own Premier League.
> 
> I dearly love this quartet, Beethoven Op. 135, and found it fascinating from my earliest acquaintance. Is there any chance someone would join me in talking about what's notable about the piece?
> 
> At first blush, Op. 135 comes across as the most "Classical" of the late quartets, almost a throwback when compared to the audacious formal and expressive innovations of the others. And yet in some ways for me it is the most profound. I'll see whether I can work out why over the next few days.


Knorf: This is also one of my favorite quartets and one I return to frequently. I believe it's one of Beethoven's most fascinating works and not just some light fluff. Despite its Haydnesque reputation, I often find it somewhat unsettling (in a good way) and restless until the composer finally relaxes and lets loose in the Finale. Besides, how can a piece with such a slow movement be considered "light"? Perhaps the complexity of form and number of movements in the previous three string quartets has something to do with this perception. With Op. 135, he's back to the four movement precedent of Haydn and seems to use traditional classical forms without some of the alterations present in the previous trio of string quartets. Despite this return to form, I believe it's somewhat hard to get a grip on what's going on, which is why it greatly rewards repeated listening. Nearly every time I believe Beethoven has settled into comfortable exposition, development, or scherzo material, there is an abrupt change in either melody, harmony, rhythm or dynamics.

As we've discussed with other quartets, this piece is a great example of four musicians having a dialogue. It's one I never tire of; I get something different from it with each listen.

May all of you have a wonderful holiday week. Cheers!


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## Merl

After looking at my old notes and listening to a few more from Spotify I'm also going to rule out the *Bartok* and *Lydian* quartets. Both recordings aren't as strong as others I've yet to discuss and are both very dry in tone. I preferred the Lydian considerably as the Bartok really wasn't a great performance but both were uncompetitive. I'm ruling out the *Goldner* and the *Alcans* too as they are decent but not special enough to break into the top 20. The *Colorado* quartet are also competent but not charismatic enough to worry the best on offer. Lack of necessary dynamics rules out the *Wihan* quartet and the *Miro* quartet too. The *Elias* quartet are a little too jerky for my tastes here but there's no doubting they play with character and that cello is deeeeeeep. The *Vermeers* don't make the cut either but they are better elsewhere in the late quartets (I've had that set many years).

I'll also add 3 other versions to the also-ran pile (2 from cycles I like) . The *Cypress* and *Suske* recordings are very good and in their cycles they work well but as stand-alone performances they don't compete with the big boys/girls, being a bit too middle of the road. The *Lindsays* (from their later ASV remade set) are a little more charismatic but there's not enough umph when needed for me, unlike their revious cycle.


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## Merl

Another 3 very good recordings I'm ruling out are the *Smetana*, *Gewandhaus* and *Guarneri* (2nd cycle) recordings. The Smetana I find a little ininvolving, the Guarneri and Gewandhaus lack the dynamics to be considered in the top tier of recordings. The Smetana play beautifully in the 3rd movement but more drive is needed elsewhere. I'm getting near my final sorts for this one. I should be finished by tomorrow. Thank god I kept my old notes. They've proved invaluable.


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## Allegro Con Brio

About the work itself, what strikes me most is the typical Beethovenian blend of irreverent humor and heaven-reaching profundity. I think the finale embodies this but we find constantly throughout. There is something so innocent and naïve-sounding about so much of this music, like Beethoven has stopped trying to find meaning in new horizons and returned to his roots at the end of it all. Yet there is a special sense that he is still not content with tradition. The slow movement is his final great statement, and in many ways I find it just as moving as the famous “Heiliger Dankgesang” from the 15th quartet. The work is filled with ambiguity - the fascinating mysteries beneath the apparently light and sunny surface beckon us to return and seek out adventure beyond the obvious elements. As SearsPoncho says, it is the constant unpredictability and irregularity of the music’s direction that keeps me hooked; unlike other works where I’ll reluctantly admit that I tend to skip around when listening, there is no way to do that here because every note has something to say which you just have to stick around to hear. The scherzo, for example - an uproarious three-minute guessing game. And then that gloriously bipolar finale, which hardly ends with firm resolve. These two unpredictable movements stand in stark contrast to the divine stasis of the hymn-with-variations. I think this may end up being my second-favorite Beethoven quartet by the end of the week (after the 13th with Grosse Fuge).


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## Merl

I love this quartet and intense listening has only made me appreciate it more. Before I sum up I'm going to discount a pair of recordings, not because they're not good but because the bar is so high on these that I had to knock a few out. The *Belceas* are a bit too light on their feet here (although the sound is excellent) and the *New Orford* (not to be confused with the Orford recording) quartet are too slow in the 2nd movement and not gritty enough elsewhere. 5 or so to finish tomorrow and then I'll do a comprehensive roundup of those that made the cut. What a tough task this has been. Thank god I had extensive notes to begin with.


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## starthrower

I feel somewhat relieved and inspired to read that Merl has yet to guillotine my beloved Yale Quartet recording so I took it off the shelf for a spin. If I can find my Tokyo RCA box I'll give that a listen as well.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I feel somewhat relieved and inspired to read that Merl has yet to guillotine my beloved Yale Quartet recording so I took it off the shelf for a spin. If I can find my Tokyo RCA box I'll give that a listen as well.


LOL. It's on my listen list for today. I only have a handful to finish then you can see the full list (which is massive). Tbh, few mess it up and those I've ruled out are by the smallest margins.


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## starthrower

Since they're both on the same disc I listened Op.132 & 135. The slow movements are sublime! That's what I really connect with.


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## Rangstrom

I'm not sure if it is wise to get in the way of Merl's tidal wave, but here we go....

1. Budapest. One of the ensemble's first studio recordings for Columbia in 1940. Sound is what you would expect for the era with a wiry edge, some congestion of the inner voices and occasional shatter. Still quite listenable and a good, if wrong-headed, performance. For me too much drive; trying too hard to live up to late quartet status. Their performances of the other late quartets are more simpatico.

2. Smetana. Very early Denon CD from 1985. Denon had a poor reputation for many of its initial CD transfers (roll off issues?), but the sound here is decent. It is also a decent performance, focusing on playfulness and lightness of touch. I enjoyed it so much that I can almost excuse the 37 minute CD.

3. Tokyo. From a large box set from HM of its widespread catalogue. Recorded with excellent sound in 2007. I have other single issue disks from the Tokyo HM series that are SACD, but this box set is standard CD. This is a great performance with a light touch when called for, but pulling on the heartstrings in the slow movement. The best all around for me of the 8 performances I have.

4. Emerson. DG set recorded 1994-95. Again excellent sound. If the Tokyo is the best, this is the one I go back to time and again. It is muscular and in your face. I can't explain it. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

I did find it instructive to concentrate on 16 by itself. It is a great quartet--I'm especially taken by the Scherzo--that few other composers ever came close.


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## Merl

Well I promised I'd finish it and I did. I haven't listened to EVERY recording of the op. 135 as I don't have access to ALL of them. I have tons of recordings of this, have contributed to a now defunct blog and Spotify was a great help with some of the single discs so this final summation is a mix of old notes, some shot relistens (to see if I'd changed my mind from 5 years ago) and binge listening of newer recordings. So without any more ado here's my final thoughts, leaving out those that didn't make the cut for one reason or another and those I haven't heard. My last ones to miss the cut were the *Alban Berg* live recording as it just wasn't as good as the studio one, the *Hagens* as they did it much better later and the *Eroicas*, who take the 2nd and 3rd movements too slowly and lose momentum.

I know many of you will have your faves but give some of these a try. I've re-instated a couple of the ones that missed the cut as they were still impressive but missing something or with something that keeps it from the superb list. I would happily recommend any of the recordings below but the mostly impressive list would be with reservations. I would heartily recommend any from the superb list onwards. Your order will probably be different but that's the joy of listening.

*Mostly Impressive*
Vlach
Alexander (Arte Nova) 
Schaeffer
Quartett Italiano
Aeolian / Gabrieli
Philharmonia Quartet Berlin
Brentano
Cleveland
Takacs
Tokyo RCA
Lindsays (70s)
Borodin
Jupiter
Skampa
Orford

*Superb*

*Kodaly* - why people don't have this whole cycle near the top of the pile I don't know. This is yet another example of their consistency across the whole set. Class. Their op. 131 is even better. 
*Artemis* - taut and right articulation with limited vibrato and great control. 
*Emerson (1995)* - a tremendously powerful performance allied with gorgeous warm playing. Another reference recording. 
*Kuss* - a tight, well-recorded reading from a decent, modern, live cycle. 
*Petersen* - strong middle of the road performance. Great playing. 
*Quatuor Mosaiques* - superb period performance with top sound. 
*Di Cremona* - quirky, not for everyone but thoroughly engaging. 
*Alban Berg (studio) * - Big, bold and very classy. A reference. 
*Casals* - although they miss some of the wit the ensemble playing is immense. 
*Tokyo (Harmonia Mundi) *- gentle, warmly romantic and beautiful, recorded stunningly. 
*Juilliard (live) *- lovely all-round account that obviously went down as well with the audience as it did with me judging by the rapturous applause it received. 
*Leipzig Gewandhaus *- excellent account from an underrated cycle. 
*Guarneri (Philips)* - gentler, quicker and better realised than the RCA recording. 
*Ebene* - this is such a strong reading and ticks all the boxes. Beautifully recorded and each movement is equally strong.
*Yale* - warm, highly lyrical and with a beautiful flow. Well-regarded for a reason.

*Christmas Crackers (sublime)*

*Talich* - this is such a jolly, exuberant recording that it makes you smile from the start. Glorious playing and you may not hear a better 2nd movement. 








*Alexander (Foghorn) *- another tremendous performance from a superb cycle. Surprisingly, not their strongest one from their set (tells you how good some of the others are) but still top-class. The first and final movements are exceptionally good.








*Vegh (70s set) *- Iove this one. The Veghs have a rustic charm in their playing that I find utterly compelling. It doesn't totally work in some of their recordings but in this one it's a joy. Listen to the 2nd movement and the end of the 4th movement and you'll get what I mean.








*Hagen (2012)* - although slower than their first recording this one is much better recorded, has a beautiful depth and some of the ensemble playing is just mesmerising. The slow movement is achingly beautiful.








*Zehetmair* - I think it was Mandryka who said you'd either love this one or hate it. There are some little interpretive touches throughout but rather than detract from the performance I personally love them. Like the Skampa quartet reading (another you should really check out) this one challenges you and makes you listen anew to this quartet. I really enjoyed this one. I don't know whether this will bear repeated listens but up to now it's definitely a performance that has caught my imagination.

*Emerson (1988)* - if the Emerson's later traversal, from their complete cycle, is superb then this is even better. It's slightly broader in most movements (although the 2nd movement is identical in timing and sound) but the slow movement is handled beautifully and as they come out of the slow intro in the 4th movement they really let rip into the allegro but it sounds so natural. A terrific recording that deserves its place amongst the best (thanks Knorf for reminding me about it).

*Top Pick*

*Auryn*









On another day any of the previous lists could have edged it as there's so little between many of these recordings but one recording just had me from the get-go. The recording is state of the art, the soundstage is wonderful but most importantly the playing is utterly sublime. Turn this one up and check out the violin sound. There are times during the 4th movement where it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end! Otherwise it's a brilliantly dynamic yet subtle performance that twists and turns and makes me want to play it again. Not everyone will feel the same but you should hear this. While you're at it try the rest of their cycle. You won't be disappointed.


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## Knorf

Nice choice, Merl, and thanks for the overview! I've yet to hear Auryn do Beethoven, but do I ever love their Haydn! Will seek out Auryn Beethoven soon. 

In PMs, you clarified that for Emerson it was the 1995. Give their 1988 (also on DG) a go, I'd suggest.

Still puzzled that the Leipziger Streichquartett didn't make the cut...

(By the way, as much as I like the Gaurneri RCA set as a whole, I also think their Op. 135 is a bit too driven, and for me their vibrato in the 3rd mvt. gets a bit too predictable rhythmically, and a bit warbly.)


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> Nice choice, Merl, and thanks for the overview! I've yet to hear Auryn do Beethoven, but do I ever love their Haydn! Will seek out Auryn Beethoven soon.
> 
> In PMs, you clarified that for Emerson it was the 1995. Give their 1988 (also on DG) a go, I'd suggest.
> 
> Still puzzled that the Leipziger Streichquartett didn't make the cut...
> 
> (By the way, as much as I like the Gaurneri RCA set as a whole, I also think their Op. 135 is a bit too driven, and for me their vibrato in the 3rd mvt. gets a bit too predictable rhythmically, and a bit warbly.)


Yep, Knorf, I totally forgot about the Emerson's earlier 88 lvb sq16. Apologies for omitting it. I didn't pick the Guarneri RCA performance, btw. I much prefer their sq16 from their later Philips cycle. The RCA one didn't make the cut (I mentioned it earlier in the thread).

Edit; I've just realised I ruled out the wrong Guarneri recording earlier in the thread by mistake and the Gewandhaus (it was the Lydian that was incorrectly labelled on my HD). I have both Guarneri sets and like both but the first one is more hit and miss but when it's good it's very good. The 2nd cycle (on Philips) is generally smoother and more consistent but doesn't have the highs of the first one. However,on this quartet I much prefer the later one. Once I heard the proper Gewandhaus recording (not the mislabelled Lydian one) I included that one on the list. Apologies for any confusion. I'm in the process of tidying up the HD before I transfer it all onto a new 5TB drive so I'll sort those little problems next week. I've gotta admit this review hasn't been easy this week due to the vast number of recordings, my very messy HD and the number of quartets who've done them twice.

Edit' just listened to the earlier Emerson account and I'm editing it into the review.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Weekly reminder: The pick for next week will go to *Mandryka*.


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## Mandryka

Webern op 9 Bagatelles. I like the fragmentary nature of the music. Stockhausen (in his lecture on Telemusik) said that he thought that Webern was the first to make silence as much a part of his compositions as pitches, and I think these piece are an illustration of what he was getting at.






The other thing I'd say is that, listening to this and to the five orchestral pieces op 10, is how timeless Webern music sounds. This music, written much more than a century ago, sounds as fresh and as modern as ever. These 1913 bagatelles are, IMO, just as now as Nono's _Fragmente Stille, An Diotima_, written 70 years after.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> Webern op 9 Bagatelles. I like the fragmentary nature of the music. Stockhausen (in his lecture on Telemusik) said that he thought that Webern was the first to make silence as much a part of his compositions as pitches, and I think these piece are an illustration of what he was getting at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other thing I'd say is that, listening to this and to the five orchestral pieces op 10, is how timeless Webern music sounds. This music, written much more than a century ago, sounds as fresh and as modern as ever. These 1913 bagatelles are, IMO, just as now as Nono's _Fragmente Stille, An Diotima_, written 70 years after.


Well, that turned out nicely since I was going to pick Webern last week! I'll give one more day to Beethoven and then look forward to getting to know more music from one of my favorite 20th century composers, and one that clicked for me in a big way this past year along with the rest of the 2VC.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl: Thanks for your herculean efforts listening to and summarizing the available recordings of Op.135. I have two of your top recommendations on cd, the old Vegh and Talich recordings, and agree with your comments. I also agree with your decision to exclude the Takacs Qt. from your elite tiers. I find the Takacs usually excellent in Beethoven, but Op.135 was not one of the bright spots from their cycle; it's good, but too lightweight and almost trivial for my tastes. 

I'm happy to hear about your favorable impression of the Kodaly Quartet. I'm a big admirer of their Haydn and now you've tempted me to buy all of their Beethoven. You've also piqued my interest in the Auryn Quartet. I'll have to check it out when I get the chance. 

Rangstrom: The Tokyo String Quartet are arguably the safest choice for Beethoven. I have yet to hear a bad recording from either of their cycles. 

Thanks to ACB for recommending one of my favorites. Happy New Year!


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## Knorf

The Webern _Bagatellen_ are a great choice! They're typically overshadowed by the tremendous but tiny _Fünf Sätze_, Op. 5, but are worthy and wonderful in their own right.

I promised to say why I felt that Beethoven's Op. 135 might be the most profound among the late quartets, but honestly *Allegro Con Brio* answered it so well, I'm not sure what I have to add that wouldn't sound like I was cribbing! Well said! Somehow, it's the most "modern" of all of them.


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## starthrower

I am just finishing up my weekend listening session of the entire Tokyo RCA cycle. These are wonderful recordings full of spirited playing captured beautifully in gorgeous sound. It's been a while since I listened to some Webern so I'll get my Boulez set off the shelf and see if I can find my Artis Quartet CD. That's all I've got.


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## annaw

I've also been listening to Beethoven this week. I love Beethoven's late quartets and this particular quartet is thoroughly enjoyable and wonderfully concise in its expression. I love the Auryn recording. It's very well recorded and the playing is beautiful. That's been a very nice discovery this week! I've been listening to a few other recordings, too, but I'll just write about the three I listened to today.

I listened to Talich and Tokyo (Harmonia Mundi) recordings, which were both delightful. Tokyo's recording was Romantic and warm, as Merl wrote, but also delicate and refined. Emersons 90s recording was a somewhat shocking (but definitely not in a negative way!) experience. Their interpretation was just drastically different from all the other recordings I've listened to this week - their playing has a very strong forward momentum and sounds occasionally almost aggressive. It's a thrilling recording and, as is usually the case with Emersons, it's very well played.

Anyways, a great choice, ACB! I've enjoyed listening to the different recordings a lot. I will probably give a spin to a few other recordings tomorrow.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here's an interesting article on the Webern (love the blog name too!)


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## Rangstrom

I approached this week's selection with some trepidation. While I possess a hefty percentage of Webern's oeuvre, I never really connected with any of his works. My copy is part of the oft-lauded 5 LP set of the LaSalle Quartet doing the complete quartets of Schönberg, Berg and Webern from c. 1970.

I started the Bagatelles, but by the time I had adjusted the volume, placed the box set safely off to the side and settled into my chair I realized that the work was almost over. So I proceeded to a second listen. I didn't love it, I didn't hate. The quartet isn't irritating or boring--I just don't feel any connection.

I thought that I would look at the liner notes for some insight. "...a radicalism of negativism and negation...No more critical and therefore truthful music has ever been written." No help here. But I did realize that while I've had this set for almost 50 years, I probably listened to the Webern disc once. (the other LPs get a lot of play, Margaret Price is mesmerizing in the Schönberg 2). Listening to the complete quartets of Webern, at 32 minutes not a huge commitment, led to an epiphany. I enjoyed the String Quartet (1905). Finally a Webern work I connected with. Still nothing with the Bagatelles though.


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## starthrower

*Uh*

I find Webern's 6 Bagatelles quite captivating. The use of silence and highly expressive string techniques is riveting and very effective towards drawing in the attentive listener. I enjoyed the YouTube performance by the Attacca Quartet so I listened to and observed their performances twice through. I also had the opportunity to see and listen to these pieces performed at a chamber music concert by the young Calidore Quartet in the fall of 2015. I had a chance to chat with a couple of the musicians after the recital and their cellist, Estelle, is the extroverted member of the quartet who really enjoys conversing with the listeners. They have been reforming for just a decade and I hope they have the opportunities to continue recording and performing in the future. I read the Fugue For Thought page on these pieces which was interesting and helpful.

You can disregard the Uh at the top of my post. That's just a typo.


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## Allegro Con Brio

During this past year, having Webern’s music click for me was a major milestone in my subsequent revelations regarding modern music. It was the “Six Pieces for Orchestra.” Convinced that I was missing something, I adopted a different mindset to approaching the music than I was used to. I envisioned the composer as an abstract expressionist painter; applying carefully-chosen colors, textures, and shapes in service of his unique conception. And it was a “lightbulb moment.” What had previously been random, confusing sounds became an enticing world that I longed to enter. 

In a way, Webern makes us focus exclusively on the fundamental physical properties of music - pitch, timbre, volume, and the richness and intensity that results from the expert blending of these qualities. I don’t really listen for melody, harmony, and rhythm in his work. I close my eyes, envision a blank canvas, and then hear every brushstroke as a different color or shape. The talent required to compose this music is truly astounding; so much more than it sounds at first. As has already been noted, silence is a key component as well; the empty spaces on the canvas are just as important as the lines, dots, and blobs. It’s as far from “random” as you can get; it’s exquisitely crafted. The trick is getting your mind to pick up on all the little details that are packed into each little phrase.

In his string quartet music, Webern sets an even bigger challenge for himself by eschewing the orchestra which allows him a large variety of colors and timbres. But he still exploits every sonic possibility of the four instruments. Even as someone used to Webern’s idiom, I was at first taken aback by the brusqueness and briefness of the Six Bagatelles; at just around (even under) five minutes long, I doubt we’ll ever do another quartet on this thread that is so short! Every little action means something as the interplay of sound and silence is heightened. I do have to admit that I prefer his orchestral music in general because I love Webern's ear for instrumentation - but among the chamber music I prefer the Six Movements for String Quartet (which is a must-hear in the string orchestra version conducted by Karajan, who wrings every last drop of expression from it) and the string trio. If anyone finds themselves slightly mystified by this week’s quartet, I would encourage them to use this opportunity to keep exploring the remarkably approachable repertoire of this endlessly fascinating composer, who for me has opened up a whole new world of what music can be and do.


----------



## Merl

I've been having a break this week due to sorting out my HDs. I'm not a big fan of Webern's string music (even though I have the 'Complete Webern' DG 6cd set courtesy of a local charity shop) so I'll sit this one out. I don't dislike it but I already have a backlog of stuff to plough through at the moment.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's choice belongs to *Josquin13*.

*Current schedule of nominators*:

Josquin13
Bwv 1050
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Simplicissimus
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Iota
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho

*On standby* (we haven't seen any of these folks in some time - if any of you wants to pop in and have your name added to the list, just do so and you'll be inserted into the rotation!
Vicente
flamencosketches
Euler
Enthusiast
Shosty
Eramire156
adriesba
DTut
MissKittysMom
20centrfuge
TurnaboutVox


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## Josquin13

Hello everyone. I've been closed out from the TC website for well over a month now, for some strange reason that I don't understand. For a time, the website also slowed down quite a lot, and apparently I wasn't the only person having that problem. Then, a couple of weeks ago I was finally able to post again, but frustratingly haven't been able to post on certain threads, including this one. As it is my turn to choose a quartet for the coming week, I'll try again, & hopefully, this time I won't get closed out. (If not, I'll try to private message this post to Allegro Con Brio, and hopefully, he can copy it onto the thread for me.)

However, I have been keeping up with each week's selection, & even wrote a couple of posts; but it's too late for them now, as we've moved on to other quartets. Thanks everyone for your selections! I've enjoyed them all, and as always, thanks Merl for your tireless efforts in picking out the best recordings to listen to (though I was surprised that neither the Talich or Prazak recordings made it onto your Dvorak list. But you did mention the Smetana, Panocha, & Emerson recordings, which I also like).

My selection for this week is the French composer, Charles Koechlin's String Quartet No. 1, Op. 51, composed in 1911/1913. I had considered choosing a number of other quartets--from the likes of Fartein Valen, Ernst Krenek, & Anders Hillborg, along with Koechlin's more substantial String Quartet No. 2, Op. 57 (which would later become his 2nd Symphony), but ended up picking Koechlin's 1st quartet because it's shorter (less than half the length of his 2nd), and it's a work that has grown on me over time: which is something that I've found can happen with Koechlin's music. I admit that Koechlin sometimes takes a long time to say what he has to say, but I've also found that his music can be a meditative, calming, tranquil, zen-like experience; that is, if you have the patience to get through it (which I do, since I also find him to be a very refined craftsman and a first rate orchestrator, & besides, his music is not quite as simple as it may first sound). However, I don't think that's so much the case with his shorter String Quartet No. 1 (which moves along nicely).

As for recordings, I suppose Merl's got another week to take a breather, since I only know of one recording of Koechlin's quartet--it's by the all-female Ardeo Quartet, & I think it's a very fine performance. (Maybe you'll find another?) Indeed Koechlin has tended to be an under performed composer, though in recent years he's been getting more & more recordings, fortunately, such as the Ardeo's recording of his two string quartets:






https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Charles-Koechlin-String-Quartet-No-1-in-D-major-Op-51/
https://www.allmusic.com/album/koechlin-string-quartets-nos-1-2-mw0001863336

For those that respond favorably to this work and want to explore Koechlin's chamber music further, I'd suggest that you also have a listen to his late 1949/50 chamber version of his early 1917 solo piano work, "Paysages et marines"--which IMO is a neglected master work of the French "Impressionist" period; along with his Violin Sonata, Sonata pour piano et alto (viola), two "La Primavera" Quintets, and the Piano Quintet, Op. 80. If you have a further inclination, you might also try his lengthy 2nd String Quartet:

Paysages et Marines (IMO, the Christoph Keller/Ensemble Zurich recording is the best, of only two to date):










Violin Sonata: 



Viola Sonata, or Sonata pour piano et alto, Op. 53: 



"Primavera" Quintet No. 1, Op. 156: 



"Primavera" Quintet No. 2, Op. 223: 



Piano Quintet, Op. 80: 



String Quartet No. 2, Op. 57: 




Koechlin also composes beautifully for wind instruments, such as in his chamber works for flute, oboe, clarinet, and saxophone: Here, for example:









I hope people enjoy getting to know this quartet, although in the past I've noticed that Koechlin's music can be something of an acquired taste. Nevertheless, his music is worth getting to know, IMO, especially for those looking to hear music from the French period that was not composed by Debussy, Ravel, or Faure (etc.). By the way, Debussy and Faure thought very highly of Koechlin's abilities, as they both asked him to orchestrate works for them (Debussy's ballet "Khamma" and Faure's "Pelleas et Melisande").


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## Josquin13

Oh good. It worked. I'm back!


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## Merl

I'm not familiar with much of Koechlin's music, Jossie, but I've heard his name. Looking forward to hearing this one and Mandryka's Webern from last week. Good to have you back, mate. I'll try and get to this and last week's pick in the next few days. I've got a few things to finish listening to and then I'll give them both a crack. 

Edit: Just listening to the a Koechlin SQ now and it is a delightful work. I'm definitely gonna search this one out, Jossie.


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## Rangstrom

J13, thank you for the head's up. While I have (and enjoy) some of Koechlin's piano and orchestral music I was unaware that he wrote any quartets. Unfortunately I am unable to source a copy of the lone recording so I'll have to pass on this week's inattentive listening session.


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## SearsPoncho

That was thoroughly enjoyable. I listen to a great deal of Debussy and Faure, and that sounded like the musical child of both composers. I agree that the music has a "meditative, calming" effect. If there is more music from this composer on this level, how come it's taken me over three decades to discover him? Doesn't he deserve to be better known? 

Thanks Josquin13! That was right in my sweet spot.


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## Merl

Yeah, big thanks from me, Jos. I liked it so much I tracked down a cheap copy of the Ardeo Quartet's recording (you just have to know where to look! ) and it should be here today along with the Antigone Quartet's recording of the 3rd quartet. I couldn't turn them down for the price. Agree with SP that it's definitely in that sweet spot that I love and has a Zemlinsky / Ravel feel to it whilst chanelling Satie and borrowing Haydnesque charm, especially in the first movement. If you like this try the other quartets. They are equally impressive.


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## Josquin13

Rangstrom writes, "J13, thank you for the head's up. While I have (and enjoy) some of Koechlin's piano and orchestral music I was unaware that he wrote any quartets. Unfortunately I am unable to source a copy of the lone recording so I'll have to pass on this week's inattentive listening session."

Does your computer not play music? That's too bad. I suppose that also rules out Spotify for you...

Yes, Koechlin was a very prolific composer, and wrote in most genres except for concertos & operas; at least, I've never encountered a Koechlin opera. If one does exist, it's never been recorded, which is possible considering that four of his five symphonies have never been recorded, and many of his works remain unpublished. Koechlin was also a very eclectic composer, in terms of his range of musical interests and influences (similar to Debussy & Ravel). Which is one of the reasons why I'm attracted to his music, being more of an early music lover, and yet at the same time, also a total Debussy & Ravel nut.

Sears Poncho,

Koechlin is indeed the "musical child" of Fauré, as Fauré was his teacher (along with Jules Massenet & a couple of others). He studied with Fauré at the same time as Maurice Ravel and Jean Roger-Ducasse. Interestingly, Koechlin wrote the first biography on Fauré, which was published in 1927. If memory serves, Koechlin was studying with Fauré when Fauré asked him to orchestrate his "Pelleas et Melisande": 



. (I find it interesting that Fauré chose Koechlin over Ravel for this task.) Plus, as I mentioned above, Debussy felt a close enough kinship to Koechlin's exotic style to ask him to orchestrate his ballet Khamma when Debussy's health was failing and he couldn't manage to do so himself; although Koechlin worked very closely with Debussy on this project, so it's not exactly like Debussy gave him free reins to do whatever he liked with his score: 



. Debussy's choice of Koechlin doesn't surprise me at all, as he certainly wouldn't have asked Ravel, considering the uneasy competition & rivalry that existed between them.

Yes, there is much more music from Koechlin on this level. But, as I wrote above, sometimes it can take Koechlin a long time to say what he has to say, which is why I picked a shorter work to serve as an introduction this week (& not his 41 minute 2nd SQ). For starters, I'd suggest that you check out my links above to some of his other chamber works, especially the Violin Sonata and his chamber version of "Paysages et Marines", both of which are essential listening; along with his 2nd "Primavera" Quintet (which the Montreal Chamber Players have made a very fine recording of, on the Atma label: https://www.amazon.com/Autour-Harp-...er+players+atma&qid=1609778465&s=music&sr=1-1). Koechlin's darker, more 'modern' sounding Viola Sonata is another remarkable work. I'm surprised that violists don't perform it more often, especially since they're always complaining that violinists get all the goodies. Yet here is a viola sonata that is a master work, & it gets neglected.

As for Koechlin's solo piano music, Michael Korstick has recorded all of it, on 3 Hanssler CDs, and he gives fantastic performances--especially of the solo piano version of "Paysages et Marines". Christoph Keller has also made very fine recordings of the solo piano music (& chamber music, as well--in a superb, but unfortunately now hard to find 3 CD box set issued by the French Accord label). However, Keller isn't quite as well recorded as Korstick, who has the advantage of 'state of the art' audiophile sound engineering from Hanssler. In addition, the British pianist Kathryn Stott has likewise made an excellent recording of "Les Heures Persanes", or The Persian Hours--for Chandos, on Hybrid SACD; as have two pianists with a more modernist bent, Ralph van Raat and Herbert Henck. There's also a good Koechlin piano disc from the Israeli pianist Boaz Sharon, but here I tend to prefer Korstick, Keller, & Stott (although I like Sharon, he's a fine musician--for example, the following "Unknown Debussy" CD from Sharon has received a lot of playing time in my home over the years, plus it's great for late night listening: https://www.amazon.com/Klavierwerke...rds=boaz+sharon+debussy&qid=1609782586&sr=8-1).

As for Koechlin's orchestral music, there are good recordings from conductors Leif Segerstam (of multiple works), David Zinman (of "The Jungle Book", after Kipling), James Judd (of "The Seven Stars Symphony"), and Heinz Holliger (of multiple works). I especially like Segerstam's recording of the orchestral version of Koechlin's "Les Heures Persanes", but be warned it's a long work, so it will take some patience to get through it. (I'd also be remiss not to mention that some critics have preferred Holliger's recording of "The Persian Hours" to Segerstam's, but, for me, Segerstam is the better conductor; as much as I enjoy Holliger's oboe playing in other music):














Koechlin's 1896-1900 orchestral work, "Au Loin", and his 1933-45 symphonic poem, "Le Buisson Ardent" are also worth getting to know:









Not surprisingly, his music tends to become more intense and harrowing during the period of the Nazi occupation of Paris during WW2.

The Hanssler label has now released all of their excellent series of Koechlin recordings in two box sets: one is devoted to his orchestral music, and the other to his chamber & solo piano music. They're both worth looking into, although you can buy most of these recordings individually, as well (if they haven't gone out of print...), which may be preferable:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0757DSW7W/musicwebuk
https://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2260518

Merl,

I'm glad that you enjoyed it. I'm impressed that you picked up on the Haydn connection (along with Satie, Zemlinsky, & Ravel..). I didn't get that right away myself. But I agree, there are some attractive similarities between Koechlin and Haydn. Not the least of which is that they're both masterful at matching & blending various and sometimes unusual instrumental timbres in their chamber music. For example, the following Trio for Flute, Clarinet, & Bassoon! derives from one of my favorite Koechlin discs, if you don't know it. The trio is played by flautist Tajana Ruhland & co., and is part of the excellent Hanssler series: 



.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, we have finally come to the first quartet we have done that is unavailable on my streaming service, a testament to the surprising obscurity of Koechlin. As a great enthusiast of French music who had somehow previously not had any acquaintance with this composer, I listened to the Ardeo YouTube recording with eager expectation. And I enjoyed it quite a bit! The harmonies are richly voluptuous in the best Impressionist style. But I thought that this quartet took a little too much obvious inspiration from the Ravel and Debussy quartets - a dreamy, lyrical opening movement, scherzo with prominent pizzicato, meditative minor-key slow movement, and exuberant finale. And I thought the treatment of themes was a little repetitive and unimaginative. But there was still nothing bad here if nothing that really jumped out at me, and Koechlin is definitely now on my radar. According to Wiki, it certainly sounds like he was an interesting man; being a political activist, teacher, writer, photographer, and critic as well as a very prolific composer. I find it interesting that his music has languished in obscurity relative to the growing popularity of Faure, Debussy, and Ravel. I’ll be exploring more from him eventually.


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## Josquin13

Yes, while there is an undeniable Debussy, Ravel (& Fauré) influence on Koechlin--and possibly vice versa? (along with many other influences, such as medieval music), I don't find him derivative of them, or uninspired, or a clone. Not like I sometimes feel in regards to Satie's influence on Poulenc, for example, in their solo piano music. Rather, I think of Koechlin as his own man, and an original composer, with his own distinct voice & style (albeit an eclectic one), even if Pierre Boulez did think that Koechlin hadn't become modern enough for an early to mid-20th century composer (despite the influence of Schoenberg). 

If you're so inclined, I'd urge you to try to hear Koechlin's chamber version of "Paysages et Marines" that I linked to above--because "unimaginative" is about the last word that would come into my mind to describe this piece. For me, it's just the opposite--rather it's as imaginative and evocative and mysterious and original as any chamber work of the French "impressionist" era. Indeed, I'd place it right up there with the finest chamber music of the period: alongside or at least in the same league with (1) the two string quartets by Debussy & Ravel, (2) the Debussy Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harp, (3) the Ravel Piano Trio & Introduction et allegro, (4) Roussel's Serenade Op. 30 for Flute, Harp, Violin Viola & Cello, and (5) Ropartz's Prelude, Marine and Chanson, just to name a handful or so of my favorite chamber works from this extraordinary era of music.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So I just finished my third listen through of the quartet.








My immediate reaction was that is was pleasant music, well played and well recorded. I wasn't just sitting and listening to it, so nothing in particular stuck out to me. The last two times through I began to hear some of the more interesting (to me) sections, namely in the Scherzo and in the Finale. I'm a sucker for pizzicato in a scherzo. My favorite part of the entire work, however is the opening of the Finale. Fantastique...

I'll give this a listen a couple more times this week, but overall I've enjoyed it.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> So I just finished my third listen through of the quartet.
> View attachment 148530
> 
> 
> My immediate reaction was that is was pleasant music, well played and well recorded. I wasn't just sitting and listening to it, so nothing in particular stuck out to me. The last two times through I began to hear some of the more interesting (to me) sections, namely in the Scherzo and in the Finale. I'm a sucker for pizzicato in a scherzo. My favorite part of the entire work, however is the opening of the Finale. Fantastique...
> 
> I'll give this a listen a couple more times this week, but overall I've enjoyed it.


Yep, I agree, BA (we often do, don't we?) . The finale is probably my fave movement. As for pizzicato well you know I'm with you there.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's pick goes to *Bwv 1080*. You still hanging around? If not, hopefully Portamento or sbmonty can be ready with an emergency choice!


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## Portamento

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's pick goes to *Bwv 1080*. You still hanging around? If not, hopefully Portamento or sbmonty can be ready with an emergency choice!


I can pick something if Bwv isn't here/ready this week. I'll just post it if they don't respond by tomorrow.


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## sbmonty

Really enjoyed this week's pick. Haven't been able to find a cd to purchase yet, but was able to stream. I'll keep looking. Thanks for this one. I plan to investigate Koechlin's other works.


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## Portamento

Filling in for Bwv 1080, who I hope will be back soon. This week's quartet is:

*Schoenberg: String Quartet No. 4, Op. 37 (1936)*

I can't believe no one's picked a Schoenberg quartet yet! While #2 is my favorite of the set-an astounding piece of music-I think all of them are impressive. Since #4 is probably the least popular (not counting the D major), that's what I'm choosing for this week.






Now it's time for my ramble on Schoenberg, popular taste, and whatnot...

Not everyone likes (or will like) 12-tone Schoenberg, and that's OK. He's always going to be a niche interest, and I'm not under the delusion that Schoenberg will one day gain his "rightful place" in the repertoire. 2021 is the 70th anniversary year of Schoenberg's death, so why is it that his music hasn't become popular? It has a lot to do with popular taste, which (in sociologist Pierre Bourdieu's words) carries out a "systematic reduction of the things of art to the things of life" (Earle 620). Simply put, if something as inherently abstract as notated music is popular, it is because the art has been "de-abstractified" to represent aspects of life. To further engage with the music as "pure" art is a socioeconomic privilege _precisely because_ you must (at least temporarily) distance yourself from everyday life (Earle 621); this is why you can tell so much about a person's social status by their taste in music.

A lot of Schoenberg's music, for a myriad of reasons, adamantly refuses to be de-abstractified. As a result, a listener coming to Schoenberg for the first time needs to have some familiarity with his idiom before experiencing any sort of aesthetic enjoyment. That doesn't necessarily mean reading up on serial analysis! (In fact, Schoenberg would actively discourage you from doing that.) My suggestion? Give the work a few concentrated listens on its own terms. As Bourdieu writes, "the art-lover, in a sense surrendering himself to the work, can internalize its principles of construction, without these ever being brought to his consciousness" (Earle 623). After a while, your ears will start making connections _for you_. I only have the faintest idea how Boulez's _Second Sonata_ is constructed, but over time my ears have picked up on patterns that allow me to enjoy the work.

Still, Schoenberg can be frustratingly hard to grasp-the majority of listeners, even with repeated listenings, will likely find him incomprehensible. Your sentiments may match Georges Auric's review of #4's French premiere:

"Each movement of this quartet reached us… as a kind of cruel message, of a voluntary hermeticism and of a merciless intellectualism, which no longer manages to touch us and whose extension we can hardly imagine. And this is perhaps the sensitive area of such music: it finds no echo in those of us who now attend without taking part in this often laborious and always external sound construction to the hunted listeners that it makes of us, for half an hour. There was certainly something quite different in the extraordinary _Pierrot lunaire_, the revelation of which remains one of the great moments of our musical existence…. Today, it seems, Schönberg is resolutely turning his back on the road he discovered yesterday. Locked in his laboratory, all windows closed, he pursues a sort of chimerical aesthetic and conquers where reason alone directs and organizes sound matter. The result is painfully dry and thankless."​
I disagree with Auric's assessment, of course, but I can see where it comes from. Auric was very involved in communist circles and sought to write populist music that engaged with a large audience. Schoenberg is decidedly not that, but it doesn't make his music any worse... just more niche.

I've found that Schoenberg's serialist music is _extremely_ performer-dependent. One awkward phrase in the quartet's first movement, for example, can compromise the music's already fragmented and confusing structure. Here are all the recordings I could find:

Kolisch (1937)
Juilliard (1951/52)
Kohon (1967?)
New Vienna (1967)
*LaSalle* (1969)
Juilliard (1975)
Schoenberg (1991)
Arditti (1993)
Leipziger (1999)
Wihan (2000)
Aron (2002/03)
Psophos (2005/06)
Prazák (2006/07)
*Fred Sherry* (2009)
*Diotima* (2014)
*Asasello* (2014/15)
*Gringolts* (2016)

I've heard the ones in bold, and out of those I like Diotima the best. They bring a wide range of color and articulation, which is something that Schoenberg desperately needs. The _Largo_ sounds amazingly poignant and problematic writing elsewhere sounds utterly logical.

Anyways, those are my thoughts! This music can be really enjoyable, and I hope that you get something out of it.


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## HenryPenfold

At last a string quartet selected for this thread that coincides with my immediate listening preference!

For many years, the *LaSalle* DG box-set was the only recording of AS's string quartets that I owned. I still enjoy listening to them very much. But a few years ago, even though I was perfectly happy with the LaSalle, I bought the *Quatuor Diotima* 2VS box, which I think is marvellous - I prefer them to the LaSalle.

I have only heard LaSalle and Diotima performances, so my comparisons are limited!

I intend to spin the Diotima tonight before I go to bed, and will listen to the LaSalle in due course ....


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## Merl

I'm only familiar with Schoeberg's first two quartets (which I like btw) so this should be an interesting listen. Thanks for the pick, Porty!


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## sbmonty

Another excellent choice. I only own the LaSalle Quartet’s recording. Will spin it now.


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## starthrower

I've been listening to a lot of quartets in the past two weeks so I might as well add Schoenberg. I have the Asasello, and the Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos.


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## Bwv 1080

Awesome choice! Been out of the loop for a while so would like to get back into this. Love this quarter and look forward to discussing it


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## starthrower

Looks like that Diotima box is sold out so I'll have to check Spotify. I started with LaSalle on YouTube late last night and they sound great to my ears. Will have to dig out my CDs today.


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## Merl

Had a quick listen last night to the *Gringolts* account and found it decent but a little laid back. I'm certainly up for this one. I wonder why I can enjoy the soundworld of Schoenberg but not the likes of Kurtag, Webern or Carter? Strange.


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## starthrower




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## HenryPenfold

As I'm listening to the Diotima performance, I'm finding Sandrine Piau's soprano mesmerising. Maybe her Baroque background brings something more direct and less ethereal to the music than Margaret Price (with the LaSalle Quartet).

I'm going to have listen to LaSalle again tomorrow and pay close attention to Margaret Price, who was a wonderfully expressive Soprano.

I'm enjoying rediscovering this quartet, I just hope that as the thread goes on, I'm not tempted to buy more recordings!


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Henry, would you like to be added to the list of nominators so you can choose a quartet sometime down the road? Totally fine either way


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Henry, would you like to be added to the list of nominators so you can choose a quartet sometime down the road? Totally fine either way


Yes please ....


----------



## ELbowe

Portamento said:


> Filling in for Bwv 1080, who I hope will be back soon. This week's quartet is:
> 
> *Schoenberg: String Quartet No. 4, Op. 37 (1936)*
> 
> I can't believe no one's picked a Schoenberg quartet yet! While #2 is my favorite of the set-an astounding piece of music-I think all of them are impressive. Since #4 is probably the least popular (not counting the D major), that's what I'm choosing for this week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now it's time for my ramble on Schoenberg, popular taste, and whatnot...
> 
> Not everyone likes (or will like) 12-tone Schoenberg, and that's OK. He's always going to be a niche interest, and I'm not under the delusion that Schoenberg will one day gain his "rightful place" in the repertoire. 2021 is the 70th anniversary year of Schoenberg's death, so why is it that his music hasn't become popular? It has a lot to do with popular taste, which (in sociologist Pierre Bourdieu's words) carries out a "systematic reduction of the things of art to the things of life" (Earle 620). Simply put, if something as inherently abstract as notated music is popular, it is because the art has been "de-abstractified" to represent aspects of life. To further engage with the music as "pure" art is a socioeconomic privilege _precisely because_ you must (at least temporarily) distance yourself from everyday life (Earle 621); this is why you can tell so much about a person's social status by their taste in music.
> 
> A lot of Schoenberg's music, for a myriad of reasons, adamantly refuses to be de-abstractified. As a result, a listener coming to Schoenberg for the first time needs to have some familiarity with his idiom before experiencing any sort of aesthetic enjoyment. That doesn't necessarily mean reading up on serial analysis! (In fact, Schoenberg would actively discourage you from doing that.) My suggestion? Give the work a few concentrated listens on its own terms. As Bourdieu writes, "the art-lover, in a sense surrendering himself to the work, can internalize its principles of construction, without these ever being brought to his consciousness" (Earle 623). After a while, your ears will start making connections _for you_. I only have the faintest idea how Boulez's _Second Sonata_ is constructed, but over time my ears have picked up on patterns that allow me to enjoy the work.
> 
> Still, Schoenberg can be frustratingly hard to grasp-the majority of listeners, even with repeated listenings, will likely find him incomprehensible. Your sentiments may match Georges Auric's review of #4's French premiere:
> 
> "Each movement of this quartet reached us… as a kind of cruel message, of a voluntary hermeticism and of a merciless intellectualism, which no longer manages to touch us and whose extension we can hardly imagine. And this is perhaps the sensitive area of such music: it finds no echo in those of us who now attend without taking part in this often laborious and always external sound construction to the hunted listeners that it makes of us, for half an hour. There was certainly something quite different in the extraordinary _Pierrot lunaire_, the revelation of which remains one of the great moments of our musical existence…. Today, it seems, Schönberg is resolutely turning his back on the road he discovered yesterday. Locked in his laboratory, all windows closed, he pursues a sort of chimerical aesthetic and conquers where reason alone directs and organizes sound matter. The result is painfully dry and thankless."​
> I disagree with Auric's assessment, of course, but I can see where it comes from. Auric was very involved in communist circles and sought to write populist music that engaged with a large audience. Schoenberg is decidedly not that, but it doesn't make his music any worse... just more niche.
> 
> I've found that Schoenberg's serialist music is _extremely_ performer-dependent. One awkward phrase in the quartet's first movement, for example, can compromise the music's already fragmented and confusing structure. Here are all the recordings I could find:
> 
> Kolisch (1937)
> Juilliard (1951/52)
> Kohon (1967?)
> New Vienna (1967)
> *LaSalle* (1969)
> Juilliard (1975)
> Schoenberg (1991)
> Arditti (1993)
> Leipziger (1999)
> Wihan (2000)
> Aron (2002/03)
> Psophos (2005/06)
> Prazák (2006/07)
> *Fred Sherry* (2009)
> *Diotima* (2014)
> *Asasello* (2014/15)
> *Gringolts* (2016)
> 
> I've heard the ones in bold, and out of those I like Diotima the best. They bring a wide range of color and articulation, which is something that Schoenberg desperately needs. The _Largo_ sounds amazingly poignant and problematic writing elsewhere sounds utterly logical.
> 
> Anyways, those are my thoughts! This music can be really enjoyable, and I hope that you get something out of it.


*As a novice to Arnold Schoenberg's music (though recently discovering and thoroughly enjoying "Verklärte Nacht"!) a sincere thank you for taking the time to share this fascinating post. In my personal journey I equate approaching Mr. Schoenberg's music to my "trepidation" in approaching Joyce's "Ulysses" the first time or willingly and consciously diverting in my early teens my musical attention from the Beatles' first LP to an astounding and captivating John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme". I was lost but happily so and articulating my pleasure was near impossible. Emersion was the key for me in reading (or listening) in a "thoughtful" manner (close-reading, close-listening?) but always remembering to be kind and patient to the obviously limited self. I trust I may proceed along a similar path with Mr. Schoenberg's music. However…human that I am … I am still grappling with "Finnegans Wake"!! Thanks again!! *


----------



## Portamento

HenryPenfold said:


> As I'm listening to the Diotima performance, I'm finding Sandrine Piau's soprano mesmerising. Maybe her Baroque background brings something more direct and less ethereal to the music than Margaret Price (with the LaSalle Quartet).
> 
> I'm going to have listen to LaSalle again tomorrow and pay close attention to Margaret Price, who was a wonderfully expressive Soprano.
> 
> I'm enjoying rediscovering this quartet, I just hope that as the thread goes on, I'm not tempted to buy more recordings!


I think you're hearing Schoenberg's 2nd, not the 4th! :lol:

But if we're going to be talking about the 2nd, the recent Quatuor Arod recording w/ Elsa Dreisig is _really_ good.



ELbowe said:


> *As a novice to Arnold Schoenberg's music (though recently discovering and thoroughly enjoying "Verklärte Nacht"!) a sincere thank you for taking the time to share this fascinating post. In my personal journey I equate approaching Mr. Schoenberg's music to my "trepidation" in approaching Joyce's "Ulysses" the first time or willingly and consciously diverting in my early teens my musical attention from the Beatles' first LP to an astounding and captivating John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme". I was lost but happily so and articulating my pleasure was near impossible. Emersion was the key for me in reading (or listening) in a "thoughtful" manner (close-reading, close-listening?) but always remembering to be kind and patient to the obviously limited self. I trust I may proceed along a similar path with Mr. Schoenberg's music. However…human that I am … I am still grappling with "Finnegans Wake"!! Thanks again!! *


No problem! You definitely have the right approach here. If you've heard Coltrane's _Ascension_, I find that my listening process for serialism and free improvisation is very similar-just let the sounds wash over you and don't think about how the music's constructed (at first anyways).


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## HenryPenfold

Portamento said:


> I think you're hearing Schoenberg's 2nd, not the 4th! :lol:


Well yes! I ended up listening to the entire Diotima box and got lost in the music! I was about to post regarding the Berg quartet, but was too tired and went to bed ......


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## Merl

I've listened to the *Fred Sherry* and *LaSalle* quartets today in Schoenberg and must say that I preferred the more animated Sherry recording, which had more bite and a better recording. Nothing wrong with the LaSalles, btw, I just preferred the Naxos recording.


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## starthrower

I gave my Asasello Quartet CD a listen but I couldn't get into it. For some reason I was more engaged with the LaSalle recording . I have that Fred Sherry CD somewhere and will give it a spin when I find it.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I gave my Asasello Quartet CD a listen but I couldn't get into it. For some reason I was more engaged with the LaSalle recording . I have that Fred Sherry CD somewhere and will give it a spin when I find it.


Is the 'Fred Sherry Quartet' the worst string quartet name in the world? If not, its up there near the top. :lol: I like my quartets to sound interesting, exotic or conjure up mysticism. The Takacs, Panocha, Pacifica, etc are good examples of interesting names. Fred Sherry either sounds like sportswear, a chain of tailors, a company that makes worming tablets for dogs or a builder's wholesaler ("Hey Merl, go and pick me up 10 metres of guttering from Fred Sherry's").


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## starthrower

Fred Sherry is an amateur cellist who owns a chain of haberdasheries and sponsors classical music artists.


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## Portamento

All this talk about recordings is great—choosing the right recording is extremely important—but what do you guys think about the work itself? Is it coherent? Does it "work"? I'll chime in with some thoughts tomorrow.


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## Merl

I think the one thing that doesn't repel me from Schoenberg's 4th quartet is it just keeps moving, there's always a flow to the music. I find that it almost sounds like he is trying to conjure a tune from the rhythmic patterns and rather than scarcity of sound (which I know I struggle with) , the complex music of the 4th quartet, with its weaving rhythms, keeps me interested. The start / stop nature of some music turns me off and I'm starting to understand that 's what my issue is with some works. I've kind of let this particular SQ wash over me in previous listens, to try and absorb some of it, but digging deeper I'm hearing some fascinating things. In the largo, for example, there"s some ensemble playing that sounds almost romantic! In fact that's what I hear in the whole SQ - it's serialist but it's got its roots somewhere in Beethoven's late quartets. In fact, I hear these contradictions in the limited amount of Schoenberg I've heard and I find it Intriguing. I'm beginning to enjoy Schoenberg's soundworld much more than I ever thought.


----------



## sbmonty

I hope I don't sound too daft, but is this our first collective 12 tone composition? We have listened to a number of 20th century works now. I'd like to know if some were following this technique. I'll then go back and take a listen. 
I'm concentrating on the rhythms and timbre primarily. So far I'm enjoying the experience enough to keep coming back to it. The largo is strangely beautiful.


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## starthrower

Glad to hear it, Merl! Over the years I've read posts from people here who are repelled, and they dismiss Schoenberg, but this can happen when you don't give your brain and ears a fair chance to get acquainted with the music. And of course there are many orchestral, and vocal works to enjoy as well. If you listen to early Schoenberg it's obvious that he is rooted in the romantic era. After all, he grew up during the late period.

I struggle with some modern quartets that are overly busy and complex, so I welcome some space and lyricism. I get tired out trying to follow a Carter quartet, and Ferneyhough is out of the question. But I was attracted to the 2nd Viennese School as soon as I heard the Dorati album years ago. I'm gonna grab my Schoenberg Quartet set on Chandos for my next listen to the 4th quartet.


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## Merl

I never write any music off completely, these days, and I always keep going back and relistening but I now know what I really struggle with in chamber music and, as you say, ST, its those very arid works with big silences punctuated with the odd sound. I care little whether it's serialist, new or old and I won't write them any off totally anymore but acknowledge that some are still a step too far for me, currently. I may like them one day but that day isn't today and I certainly am not going to berate them when one day I may be listening to them with enjoyment and laughing at my then musically immature self. However, life is about the here and now and there's a a huge number of works that currently, for me, sit in the no-man's land of my listening and the more I try them and the more adventurous I am the more some of those are making their way into my listening. Thank you to those I have reached out to on here who have given me pieces to stretch my listening and expand my horizons. I'm always appreciative and thank you for your time. Similarly thank you to you folks for doing the same on this thread. I may not like all of it (eg, I didn't enjoy the Webern from last week, even though I have it and I did try!) but I ll keep trying and maybe one day reflecting on these changes, I'll totally dig it. I've had some composers' works for years in the cd racks and on the HD (picked up on the cheap, etc) but keep them as you never know what you will like next. Never say never (but 'not for now' is fine).

I find Schoenberg's music quite fascinating. The 'me' of 10 years ago wouldn't have given it the time of day but now I want to hear more and fortunately I've picked up some ex library discs over the years and cheap downloads, and kept them. Now I'm starting to play them and enjoy them. I intensely dislike 'fixed minds' in any situation (whether it be music, politics, etc). The enquiring mind welcomes every influence and can re-evaluate. Life keeps changing (as it does daily at the moment at an alarming pace). If you'd have told me 40 years ago I would eventually have 4 kids, was a teacher and living in Scotland I'd have laughed my b%llocks off at you. Yet here we are.....


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## starthrower

"Never say never" is a good philosophy for a relationship and attitude towards listening to a piece of music. In the past few years I've been listening to all kinds of music I blew off years ago.


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## SanAntone

starthrower said:


> Fred Sherry is an amateur cellist who owns a chain of haberdasheries and sponsors classical music artists.


You may have him confused with someone else. Wikipedia:



> Fred Sherry (b. 1948) is an American cellist who is particularly admired for his work as a chamber musician and concert soloist. He studied with Leonard Rose at the Juilliard School before winning the Young Concert Artists International Auditions in 1968. In 1971 he co-founded the Speculum Musicae and in 1973 he co-founded the Tashi Quartet. Since the mid-1980s he has been a regular performer with Bargemusic and the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center, the latter of which he served as Artistic Director for between 1989-1993. He has appeared as a soloist with the Los Angeles Philharmonic, New Japan Philharmonic, Boston Symphony Orchestra, and L'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande. He currently serves on the faculty at the Juilliard School, the Manhattan School of Music, and Mannes College The New School for Music.


Along with the LaSalle quartet, the Fred Sherry Quartet's recordings of Schoenberg are highly regarded, AFAIK.


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## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> Fred Sherry is an amateur cellist who owns a chain of haberdasheries and sponsors classical music artists.


Fred Perry

Cm m m mcm


----------



## ELbowe

Merl said:


> I think the one thing that doesn't repel me from Schoenberg's 4th quartet is it just keeps moving, there's always a flow to the music. I find that it almost sounds like he is trying to conjure a tune from the rhythmic patterns and rather than scarcity of sound (which I know I struggle with) , the complex music of the 4th quartet, with its weaving rhythms, keeps me interested. The start / stop nature of some music turns me off and I'm starting to understand that 's what my issue is with some works. I've kind of let this particular SQ wash over me in previous listens, to try and absorb some of it, but digging deeper I'm hearing some fascinating things. In the largo, for example, there"s some ensemble playing that sounds almost romantic! In fact that's what I hear in the whole SQ - it's serialist but it's got its roots somewhere in Beethoven's late quartets. In fact, I hear these contradictions in the limited amount of Schoenberg I've heard and I find it Intriguing. I'm beginning to enjoy Schoenberg's soundworld much more than I ever thought.


*
As I have no recordings in my collection I had fun finding them on line and now have access to seven (all on the list kindly provided). Initially listening was via stereo was constantly interrupted by ambient noise i.e. fireplace fan; so switched to headphones....so much better focus for me especially for this type of music ….not background music while doing the banking on the computer!! A few nights ago I listened to three performances just before bed….not a great idea…brain wouldn't turn off just too enervated! Won't do that again!
The nuances of instrumentation seem more vital than listening to other music: volume, interplay (Tyner/Coltrane analogy?) response, or lack thereof, separation of sound(s), slight lyricism and then end of same and as you said: "Start/Stop" nature of the flow (great point) etc., etc., . 
As "PORTAMENTO" so correctly stated this music is "...extremely performer-dependent"….so onward and upward (hopefully!) Exciting exercise thanks again!! 
*


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> I never write any music off completely, these days, and I always keep going back and relistening but I now know what I really struggle with in chamber music and, as you say, ST, its those very arid works with big silences punctuated with the odd sound. I care little whether it's serialist, new or old and I won't write them any off totally anymore but acknowledge that some are still a step too far for me, currently. I may like them one day but that day isn't today and I certainly am not going to berate them when one day I may be listening to them with enjoyment and laughing at my then musically immature self. However, life is about the here and now and there's a a huge number of works that currently, for me, sit in the no-man's land of my listening and the more I try them and the more adventurous I am the more some of those are making their way into my listening. Thank you to those I have reached out to on here who have given me pieces to stretch my listening and expand my horizons. I'm always appreciative and thank you for your time. Similarly thank you to you folks for doing the same on this thread. I may not like all of it (eg, I didn't enjoy the Webern from last week, even though I have it and I did try!) but I ll keep trying and maybe one day reflecting on these changes, I'll totally dig it. I've had some composers' works for years in the cd racks and on the HD (picked up on the cheap, etc) but keep them as you never know what you will like next. Never say never (but 'not for now' is fine).
> 
> I find Schoenberg's music quite fascinating. The 'me' of 10 years ago wouldn't have given it the time of day but now I want to hear more and fortunately I've picked up some ex library discs over the years and cheap downloads, and kept them. Now I'm starting to play them and enjoy them. I intensely dislike 'fixed minds' in any situation (whether it be music, politics, etc). The enquiring mind welcomes every influence and can re-evaluate. Life keeps changing (as it does daily at the moment at an alarming pace). If you'd have told me 40 years ago I would eventually have 4 kids, was a teacher and living in Scotland I'd have laughed my b%llocks off at you. Yet here we are.....


I love this post for a variety of reasons. I love this thread and wish the member who started it all (Vicente?) would return. I find it the most intelligent and focused thread that does not go too far off on tangents, respects the opinions of different members, and routinely expands our horizons with unfamiliar repertoire, as well as returning to familiar works, giving members the opportunity to sound off on why we love the familiar, basic repertoire. I believe everyone here is open-minded and up for anything.

My approach for any "new," modern or unfamiliar composer who does not compose using traditional forms or tonality is this:
I fully accept what you are trying to do on your terms. I will not resist. Having said that, are you any good at it? To get to the point: Is it worth hearing? Full stop.


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## starthrower

SanAntone said:


> Along with the LaSalle quartet, the Fred Sherry Quartet's recordings of Schoenberg are highly regarded, AFAIK.


No doubt! It was just a joke. I own the CD and I'm looking through my totes trying to locate it for a spin.


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## Bwv 1080

Going with the Arditti, little faster tempo than the New Vienna recording that had been my go to - and you know this has to be one of the simpler pieces in their repertoire


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## Allegro Con Brio

Loving some of the comments here lately! I’m finding myself less and less inclined to participate in some of the other TC threads because there's always the risk of running into potentially contentious and/or off-topic subjects, and I don’t come here for that. But we have a true amiable listeners’ community going on in this thread, and I think it’s really something special.

Schoenberg’s “A Survivor From Warsaw” was the work that showed me the potential of modern music to express real, authentic emotions through its musical language. Since then I’ve explored quite a bit of serial/atonal music but still feel that my knowledge of Schoenberg’s ouevre is not quite complete. I had never heard any of his quartets before this but I was familiar with his piano music, Pierrot Lunaire, Moses und Aron, and several orchestral works (though Verklärte Nacht probably holds my most treasured place amongst his compositions). I love the fierce rhythmic impetus of this quartet along with its very intricate contrapuntal textures which never become unduly complex. It's pretty easy to track what’s going on in Schoenberg’s musical arguments and your mind is always busy. There is a definite “Bartokian” vibe to this work too in the almost “savage” rhythms and haunting long-breathed melodies alternating with more disjointed portions. And though Schoenberg may have sought to revamp traditional harmonic systems, he kept the classical structures intact as we clearly have a sonata-form movement, a scherzo, slow reflection, and theme-and-variations. The Largo didn’t really capture my attention, but the finale was my favorite movement, especially the last few minutes as I thought the ending to be quite moving. I will definitely have to hear his other quartets soon. It can take the ears a bit of time to adjust the apparently random sounds that Schoenberg is offering, but once I get in the “groove” of the music, I find it quite addicting and I find myself eager to hear whatever unpredictable yet logical gesture comes next. 

Oh, and among the two recordings I compared - the Fred Sherry on Naxos and the Schoenberg on Chandos - I, somewhat surprisingly, preferred the former for its greater expression and range of articulation, as the latter sounded a bit underplayed.


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## starthrower

Brio, I find the Largo to be a serene departure from the other movements and the easiest for me to follow so I enjoyed it quite a bit. The unison lines of the opening theme are quite memorable and really the only content I've been able to retain at this point. Well I located my Fred Sherry CD so I'll give this one a spin next.

The less vigorous style of the Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos is pretty much their thing. But I enjoy their warm and beautiful sound. I noticed a marked contrast once I started in with the Fred Sherry Quartet CD.


----------



## HenryPenfold

I'm really enjoying listening to this quartet. What I find striking is the warmth and almost romantic feel to some of the passages, despite the fact that this quartet represents a clear move into 12 tone writing, even beyond the third quartet. There are some Bartok style licks in the first bars of the first movement, and in places the music approaches a tune.

I'm alternating between my two sets, LaSalle and Diotima. Although neither of these performances fall into the trap of playing the music in an 'expected' sterile and colourless way (as some musicians approach _modern_ music), it is the Diotima quartet who seem to nod in the direction of the romantic tradition. They also take over one and a half minutes longer to get through the work, with the largo taking one minute fourteen seconds longer than LaSalle. The largo third movement is an untroubled and rather beautiful near-interlude and the finale, although possibly the most 12 tone of all four movements has a most warm and lyrical charm to it.

I'm quite surprised how well the LaSalle performance and recording has stood the test of time, given that it was recorded in July 1969. I think I have more than enough to be getting on with, with these two recordings without checking out some of the other sets.


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## Bwv 1080

Seriously, try the Arditti recording


What other late Schoenberg pieces do you all like? The Piano Concerto is my favorite


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## Bwv 1080

Also is there a list of past quartets for this group? If not, maybe just what Beethoven qts have been done?


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## Allegro Con Brio

^^^Sorry, I just chose Beethoven a couple weeks ago:lol: For reference we've done the 14th and 16th.

*First Round*

23 Feb: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
1 Mar: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
8 Mar: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15 Mar: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22 Mar: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29 Mar: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
5 Apr: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12 Apr: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1080)
19 Apr: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
20 Apr: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
3 May: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10 May: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17 May: Ravel - String Quartet in F Major (Eramire156)
24 May: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31 May: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
7 June: Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14 June: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21 June: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28 June: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
5 July: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12 July: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19 July: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26 July: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
2 Aug: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

*Second Round*

9 Aug: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16 Aug: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
23 Aug: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30 Aug: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
6 Sept: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
13 Sept: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
20 Sept: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
26 Sept: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
4 Oct: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11 Oct: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)

18 Oct: Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
25 Oct: Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)
1 Nov: Rihm - Et Lux for string quartet and vocals (calvinpv)
8 Nov: Ives - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
15 Nov: Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2 (Rangstrom)
22 Nov: Bax - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
29 Nov: Dutilleux - Ainsi la nuit (starthrower)
6 Dec: Gade - String Quartet in E Minor (annaw)
13 Dec: Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14 (SearsPoncho)

*Third Round*

20 Dec: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16 (Allegro Con Brio)
27 Dec: Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet (Mandryka)
3 Jan: Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1 (Josquin13)
10 Jan: Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 (Portamento)


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## HenryPenfold

Bwv 1080 said:


> Seriously, try the Arditti recording


I have a few other Arditti recordings that I like. If I can find the time, I'll give their Schoenberg a spin (assuming availability on Qobuz).



> What other late Schoenberg pieces do you all like? The Piano Concerto is my favorite


_Piano Concerto_ 1942, _String Trio_ 1946, _Violin Concerto _1936.

The performance that clicked the violin concerto into focus for me was the astonishing performance by Hilary Hahn ........


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## Portamento

I'm also loving the great discussion!

Here's some food for thought. I definitely don't agree with everything Adorno had to say about music (Sibelius is great!), but I find his views on Schoenberg's American period very interesting. He regarded the Violin Concerto and this quartet as "magnificent failures," and while I wouldn't go that far, there _is_ something of an incongruence between serialism and Schoenberg's adaptation of the "developing variation." This is a term coined by Schoenberg that describes the constant variation of thematic material, epitomized by Brahms but present in music since about 1750. Schoenberg was always looking for ways to implement the developing variation in a 12-tone context, and his efforts to do so are especially obvious in this quartet. He had composed "fake" sonata-form movements before (such as the Wind Quintet's 1st movt., which mimics a lot of sonata-form's surface qualities), but the Fourth Quartet's 1st movt. intentionally goes a lot further in trying to achieve this synthesis.

Whether Schoenberg was successful in reconciling serialism and development is arguable. After all, is it even possible to do such a thing? Adorno certainly doesn't think so:

Every row is as much "the" row as the previous one was, no more, no less.... What, then, does "development" mean? Each tone is thematically worked out in terms of its relation to the row and none is "free"; the various parts can produce a greater or fewer number of combinations, but none can bind itself more closely to the material than can the first statement of the row.... This is why "development," ultimately, in the sense of strict construction, becomes illusory (_Philosophy of New Music_, 78).​
Melodies built from tone rows are also problematic because the amount of tones to choose from becomes smaller and smaller until there is no choice for the final tone (in order to properly complete the tone row). This means that the melodies are extremely self-contained and hard to develop convincingly, especially when serialism eliminates the "flow" of tonality-once a statement of the tone row is complete, it has no forward drive on its own. This can be seen in the stop/start nature of the quartet's very beginning.

Whether the work's premises display a certain naivety or not, the fact that Schoenberg is able to create something even half-compelling out of fundamentally irreconcilable elements is a testament to his genius.



Merl said:


> I think the one thing that doesn't repel me from Schoenberg's 4th quartet is it just keeps moving, there's always a flow to the music… The start / stop nature of some music turns me off and I'm starting to understand that 's what my issue is with some works.


Lack of flow and stopping/starting are part of the package with serialism, yet Schoenberg does such an admirable job at disguising these tendencies that they're pretty much undetectable... unless a musicologist is specifically looking for them, of course!



Allegro Con Brio said:


> *I had never heard any of his quartets before this*






HenryPenfold said:


> I'm really enjoying listening to this quartet. What I find striking is the warmth and almost romantic feel to some of the passages, despite the fact that *this quartet represents a clear move into 12 tone writing, even beyond the third quartet*. There are some Bartok style licks in the first bars of the first movement, and in places the music approaches a tune.


I've gotta disagree with you there. The Third Quartet is much more "strict" when it comes to serialism.



Bwv 1080 said:


> What other late Schoenberg pieces do you all like? The Piano Concerto is my favorite


My favorite late Schoenberg piece by a decent margin is the String Trio. That one's flawless!


----------



## Malx

I am unable to tell when a row is developing or not but what I have discovered by listening to three different recordings this morning is that despite what some would have you believe there are varying degrees of colour and warmth that becomes noticeable when comparing the various interpretations.
No cold, clinical, just playing the notes with no feeling to be heard here - or perhaps I've just been lucky with my choices.

Via Qobuz I listened to:
LaSalle
Arditti
Diotima


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## starthrower

Malx said:


> I am unable to tell when a row is developing or not but what I have discovered by listening to three different recordings this morning is that despite what some would have you believe there are varying degrees of colour and warmth that becomes noticeable when comparing the various interpretations.
> No cold, clinical, just playing the notes with no feeling to be heard here - or perhaps I've just been lucky with my choices.
> 
> Via Qobuz I listened to:
> LaSalle
> Arditti
> Diotima


There's an awful lot of parsing and technical talk at this forum that is probably of interest to musicians and composers but what it really comes down to is whether you like the music or not? And does the performance engage you? I'm listening to No.3 now by Fred Sherry and I like this music and the ensemble a lot.


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## Portamento

Sorry if I bored everyone with my technical talk. I'm a composer, so that stuff's pretty interesting to me...

Of course, starthrower is completely right. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you like the music or not. (And I do.) The theory was just food for thought.


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## Merl

I've had the chance to listen to a few more very fine performances of Schoenberg in the past few days and I've definitely warmed to this quartet. The *Juilliards*, for me, are very good at conveying the music's more angsty moments but I'm not sure they get the full emotional range of Schoenberg's vision but this early 50s recording is still a decent one. The *Asasello* Quartet's spikier reading offers a similar insight but their tone and ensemble is much better here. This is a fine performance for those who prefer a more forthright and harder reading. Very clear and close recording with a touch of dryness but there's no doubting the technical skill of the performers. The *Diotimas* weave a middle path through their measured account. It has the drama but also playing of lithe beauty. This is another excellent account and a set I may be investing in fairly soon. For those preferring a warmer reading, focused more on the romantic and emotional elements of this quartet the the *Leipziger* quartet may be better suited for you. I've gotta admit I was thoroughly impressed with the terrific ensemble playing here and their tonal balance and beauty definitely struck a chord with me. Emotionally I felt a strong link with this nicely recorded performance and it is a definite front-runner in this field. There's also no doubting the *New* *Vienna's *playing here but I found their approach a little austere and aloof. They play with great seriousness and so lose out to their competitors on that front for me. Again it's difficult to complain about their skillful reading, though. I think that's enough for now.


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## starthrower

No need for apologies. I thought your initial post for the Schoenberg quartet was superb, and these discussions are great for people who are studying and trying to understand the theory. I'm just saying don't feel like you can't enjoy a piece if you don't understand how the composer constructed the piece. I certainly don't pretend to understand how Schoenberg builds the musical structure from a row. I just enjoy listening to the musical conversation of a quartet. And of course the more you listen, the better you hear everything that's going on.


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## Merl

I agree, ST. I just react to the recordings. It's certainly interesting how differently the quartets I've listened to up to now play this music. It was the same with the Shosty SQ we looked at a few months back. There was a very wide range of interpretations.


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## ELbowe

Portamento said:


> Sorry if I bored everyone with my technical talk. I'm a composer, so that stuff's pretty interesting to me...
> 
> Of course, starthrower is completely right. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you like the music or not. (And I do.) The theory was just food for thought.


*I for one appreciate your insights into the musical form. Having spent (misspent?) most of my adult life in the proverbial rat race when time for listening to music or reading, other than policy circulars, was non existent, in retirement I am excited to "try" to make up for lost time. That also includes trying to understand basic Music Theory, reading peoples opinions who have far more experience than moi, is never a chore, just very informative. I looked at the score for the piece under discussion and with very limited knowledge I was astounded by the complexity and am in complete awe of all the musicians in all the quartets...that is probably why I am undecided which performance I prefer.....right now I "prefer" the one I am currently listening to!!! Thanks again!! *


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## ELbowe

starthrower said:


> Brio, I find the Largo to be a serene departure from the other movements and the easiest for me to follow so I enjoyed it quite a bit. The unison lines of the opening theme are quite memorable and really the only content I've been able to retain at this point. Well I located my Fred Sherry CD so I'll give this one a spin next.
> 
> The less vigorous style of the Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos is pretty much their thing. But I enjoy their warm and beautiful sound. I noticed a marked contrast once I started in with the Fred Sherry Quartet CD.


*After saturation (most enjoyable) with this work over the past few days I too have decided that 3. Largo is my favourite section. What I am doing now is listening to what I have access to online specifically to the "Largo" for each one recording on a second go-around. It seems so far LaSalle Quartet is my bench-mark reference point. Thanks again! *


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> I have a few other Arditti recordings that I like. If I can find the time, I'll give their Schoenberg a spin (assuming availability on Qobuz).
> 
> _Piano Concerto_ 1942, _String Trio_ 1946, _Violin Concerto _1936.
> 
> The performance that clicked the violin concerto into focus for me was the astonishing performance by Hilary Hahn ........


I also have that remarkable recording on cd and would agree with your comments.


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## Portamento

starthrower said:


> No need for apologies. I thought your initial post for the Schoenberg quartet was superb, and these discussions are great for people who are studying and trying to understand the theory. I'm just saying don't feel like you can't enjoy a piece if you don't understand how the composer constructed the piece. I certainly don't pretend to understand how Schoenberg builds the musical structure from a row. I just enjoy listening to the musical conversation of a quartet. And of course the more you listen, the better you hear everything that's going on.


I _did_ say in my initial post that "familiarizing yourself with the composer's idiom" doesn't necessarily mean reading up on theory.



Portamento said:


> After a while, your ears will start making connections _for you_. I only have the faintest idea how Boulez's _Second Sonata_ is constructed, but over time my ears have picked up on patterns that allow me to enjoy the work.


To be fair, my 2nd post wasn't a detailed analysis or anything. Still, it's a bit more than someone has to deal with if they're just looking to appreciate the music.

On an unrelated note, I agree that the Hilary Hahn CD is really, really good. Those who are enjoying the VC may also want to hear the recent Isabelle Faust/Daniel Harding recording. In my humble opinion, it's even better than the Hahn.


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## Rangstrom

As with the Webern (and Berg when he is picked), my performance is the LaSalle Quartet from the high regarded 5 LP set recorded c. 1970. The performances in that set stand up to their reputation and the sound is certainly acceptable. I don't feel any need to seek out other performances. Not to over-simplify, but collectors generally pursue breadth or depth (who would have the time to do both?). I seek breadth. I would have to really love a work (hello, Tristan); need alternatives because of performance or sound quality issues or have stumbled across multiple performances through other couplings (the only possible explanation for my having more than one copy of Bolero) to own multiple copies.

On no, I just admitted that there are certain works that I don't enjoy. While I admire anyone's willingness to revisit works that they don't connect with--especially since I try to do so also--there may come a time when you might want to admit that you don't like a particular work. I may not have the expertise to call any work, composer or genre bad, but I've certainly done the due diligence to know when I don't like a work (see Dunning-Kruger hypothesis for a discussion of the pitfalls).

Having said that I do mostly enjoy Schönberg's 4th quartet. The difficulty that I have doesn't relate to 12 tone theory, but to an unrelated aspect of his music. I need to listen to a few more works in order focus my thoughts on the issue, but I will elaborate on this in a day or two.


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## Josquin13

I liked the LaSalle Quartet in the Largo as well. They play it beautifully. The 3rd & 4th movements are the heart of the quartet for me. It's remarkable music. Thanks for the selection.


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## Bwv 1080

Portamento said:


> Sorry if I bored everyone with my technical talk. I'm a composer, so that stuff's pretty interesting to me...
> 
> Of course, starthrower is completely right. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you like the music or not. (And I do.) The theory was just food for thought.


Keep it up, I find it interesting


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## Bwv 1080

To get really wonky, found a cool analysis here: http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/stolz1/stolz1.pdf
A key characteristic of late Schoenberg is tonal allusions in the rows



> In his fourth quartet, Schoenberg divides the first violin melody1
> (the piece's tone
> row) into four three-note cells, or trichords: (D-C#-A), (Bb-F-Eb), (E-C-Ab), and (G-F#-B).
> Since these four chords have distinct sonorities that reappear throughout the piece, they
> are labeled with chord names rather as pitch-class sets with Forte names or as cells with
> regard to their appearance in the row (i.e., (1,2,3), (4,5,6), etc.). The first trichord is a Dmajor-seventh chord with a missing third (labeled "Dma7
> (no3)." The second trichord is labeled "Bsus4," a pseudo-symmetrical chord formed from two stacked perfect fourths.2 The third trichord, which is symmetrical, is an augmented triad, labeled "E+." 3
> The final trichord of the row is G-major-seventh, but with the fifth omitted, labeled Gma7


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## Malx

Portamento said:


> Sorry if I bored everyone with my technical talk. I'm a composer, so that stuff's pretty interesting to me...
> 
> Of course, starthrower is completely right. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you like the music or not. (And I do.) The theory was just food for thought.


I sense that my post (#1827) may have prompted your comment - I was, obviously not successfully, trying to point out my lack of technical knowledge rather than suggesting I find the explanations 'boring'. I hope I have not offended anyone as this was not my intention.


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## Allegro Con Brio

So interesting how perceptions differ! I'm listening to the Largo by the Wihan Quartet and I don't hear as much logic and direction to it as the other movements, and it doesn't really hold my attention. The Wihan is an underrated quartet BTW, I love their Beethoven recordings.

Great to see some new (to this thread) members participating lately! *ELbowe* and *SanAntone*, would you like to choose a quartet sometime down the road?


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## ELbowe

Allegro Con Brio said:


> So interesting how perceptions differ! I'm listening to the Largo by the Wihan Quartet and I don't hear as much logic and direction to it as the other movements, and it doesn't really hold my attention. The Wihan is an underrated quartet BTW, I love their Beethoven recordings.
> 
> Great to see some new (to this thread) members participating lately! *ELbowe* and *SanAntone*, would you like to choose a quartet sometime down the road?


*Thanks very much Mr. B for the offer, most considerate and welcoming of you! For the foreseeable future I will leave that task to other experienced people in this august group as I lurk and learn the ropes. I have enjoyed the exercise very much, Yes indeed!! way down the road ...Thanks again!
*


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## HenryPenfold

Portamento said:


> I've gotta disagree with you there. The Third Quartet is much more "strict" when it comes to serialism.


I should have expressed the point better. What I mean is that the 12 tone technique in the 4th is less awkward. He's hit his stride, so as to speak. Perhaps more so in terms of _serialism_, rather than _12 tone_.



> My favorite late Schoenberg piece by a decent margin is the String Trio. That one's flawless!


Definitely one of mine, too.


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## HenryPenfold

Portamento said:


> On an unrelated note, I agree that the Hilary Hahn CD is really, really good. Those who are enjoying the VC may also want to hear the recent Isabelle Faust/Daniel Harding recording. In my humble opinion, it's even better than the Hahn.


I also have that CD, but I prefer the Hahn. Maybe because Hahn's was the recording that caused me to _get_ the vc after many years. It was a true revelation. The Faust came later and did not have the same impact. I also have some excellent Bartok performed by Faust.


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## starthrower

Portamento said:


> I _did_ say in my initial post that "familiarizing yourself with the composer's idiom" doesn't necessarily mean reading up on theory.


My initial comment wasn't directed at your excellent post. Just a statement in general that aligns with your comment above.


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## Torkelburger

> Whether Schoenberg was successful in reconciling serialism and development is arguable. After all, is it even possible to do such a thing? Adorno certainly doesn't think so:


Adorno is wrong.



> Every row is as much "the" row as the previous one was, no more, no less.


This is utter nonsense. This makes the classic blunder most armchair critics of serialism make of equivocating the ROW ITSELF with a MELODY. I have news for him, A ROW IS NOT THE SAME THING AS A MELODY.

Saying "every row is as much the row as the previous one was" is like saying "a major scale is as much a major scale as the previous one was". So what?

A row is a group of notes from which MELODIES CAN BE MADE, just as much a scale is a group of notes from which melodies can be made. Notes of the row can be repeated one at a time or repeated in groups, and (gasp) even out of order depending on what method you are using (such as the horizontal-vertical method), or appear out of order to suit contrapuntal or expressive needs, notes of the row can also be (gasp) omitted if one so chooses (all of these claims are supported by the Brindle book on serial composition).



> ... What, then, does "development" mean?


In music, development means that a musical event that has occurred in one instance has reoccurred in another and in so doing, has retained some of its previous musical attributes while changing one or more others. We call it "developed" because it's previous attributes it has retained make it recognizable and it's altered attributes have changed its sound, expressive quality, context, meaning, etc., etc. At least this is what Schoenberg meant. Keep in mind, it is possible to do this WITHOUT USING TONES OR PITCHES AT ALL, so saying serialism is incapable of this is an outright, boldfaced lie.



> Each tone is thematically worked out in terms of its relation to the row and none is "free";


Yet another strawman argument that the 12-tone system is a "paint-by-number" system in which each-and-every note of the row is equal to each-and-every note of the melody. Note-for-note. No repetitions. No change of order. No different methods of composing with the notes. It all sounds the same. Etc. Etc. He is DEAD WRONG.



> the various parts can produce a greater or fewer number of combinations, but none can bind itself more closely to the material than can the first statement of the row.


This is a completely ridiculous statement and makes no sense. It displays his complete misunderstanding above due to the equivocation in his head. A melody in 12-tone composition is just like a melody in all other music, as Schoenberg points out. Melodies, however constructed, IS the material. Do we criticize the major scale for producing greater or fewer combinations of notes, but none of them can combine itself more closely to the material than can the first statement of the scale?



> Melodies built from tone rows are also problematic because the amount of tones to choose from becomes smaller and smaller until there is no choice for the final tone (in order to properly complete the tone row).


As Brindle points out in his book, there is no law that states a melody must be confined to neatly fit a row perfectly (or vice versa). You can make a melody out of 6 notes of the row and use the next 6 of the row in the next phrase or chord or whatever you wish. You can use up all 12 notes of a row and then use the next 3 or 4 of the next transformation to finish the melody, etc. You can also keep using transformation after transformation of rows to complete the melody you are trying to achieve until you are done. You can go on for 100 bars writing a melody this way if you want. So, I don't see the problem with the method you described.

And are you aware that there are several different ways of composing with a tone row, not just one? You could use the Segmentation technique and use notes 1-6 as a melody over 7-12 accompaniment, then switch to a new transformation and do 7-12 over 1-6 and do it again with another and again and again. When this happens, there is no appearance of the 12-tone row in the melody, ever, and you can really make for some thematic ideas more easily as notes will repeat more often naturally. You can make the melody last as long as you want. So, again there is no problem as you described.

Further, you could use the horizontal-vertical method (as used sometimes by Webern) in which you outline the rhythms of the melody and accompaniment you want and then fill in the notes, not vertically with the row or its different segments, but horizontally and vertically together (meaning you start with any notes that sound together, then fill in each note as it sounds in rhythmic order of occurrence in the texture as whole). This will also never yield any 12-tone rows in any voice, and will also make notes repeat in voices naturally. You also do not have to change transformations in a single piece (although I do when I compose this way, such as making the last note of the row the first note of the next transformation-which is what Stravinsky did a lot). You can make the melody last as long as you want. So, again there is no problem as you described.



> This means that the melodies are extremely self-contained and hard to develop convincingly, especially when serialism eliminates the "flow" of tonality-once a statement of the tone row is complete, it has no forward drive on its own.


I've already explained how this is wrong, but here is an example of music as well. The 12-tone melody is first stated right at the beginning. This theme is developed quite convincingly at 1:09 by the strings and again at 1:30 by the low brass. Notice the strings continue the melody it began at 1:09 as the brass come in. It soars and soars to greater and newer heights and creates tension not only on its own, but as expressive counterpoint to the brass. There is development, flow, and drive. Long, expressive, recognizable melody with elaboration. Rochberg was phenomenal.


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## starthrower

^^^
Great music! I can't believe I haven't run across his music before. Thanks, Torkelburger!


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## Rangstrom

Rochberg is an interesting choice for a composer who wrote 12 tone works that reward repeat listens.

In my view 12 tone is a technique as any other. My (only) test is whether I want to hear the work again, not whether the composer can impress the hell out of his fellow composers (hello Babbitt). Schönberg and Rochberg wrote a number of such works. Still I don't see the point in so limiting your choices. Perhaps 100 years ago in Vienna when Schönberg, Zemlinsky, Schreker and others were stretching tonality around like taffy a reset of sorts was necessary or at least enlightening, but we just can't experience the "new music" the same way anymore.


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## Bwv 1080




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## Torkelburger

> Still I don't see the point in so limiting your choices.


I think the point is that it is a system of cycling through all twelve pitches universally with the goal of maintaining a chromatic "freshness" to the overall sound. It's to avoid note "fatigue", too much precedence of a note over others during that universal cycling, which might happen more in straight atonal or tonal writing. That was the goal of Schoenberg and Webern's (especially) atonal technique but now set up in a systematic way. The choices may seem limited, but they are needed in order to ensure the goals of atonality--that things which denotes keys, triads, scales, anything tonal, etc. are avoided.

With creativity, it's not really limiting at all. Composers have found all sorts of ways of composing with the system. Look at how diverse the styles are-Schoenberg and Berg's _Violin Concertos_ were both written using 12-tone technique. Do they sound the least bit similar? Not to me. Doesn't Stravinsky's _The Flood_ STILL sound like "Stravinsky"? It couldn't be mistaken for the Second Viennese School, could it? No way. Does Boulez sound like any of them? Nope. I could go on and on.

Like any other system of writing, I think it is still completely valid for use by today's composers.


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## Torkelburger

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> Great music! I can't believe I haven't run across his music before. Thanks, Torkelburger!


You're welcome!

In my country (United States), Rochberg is considered one of the greatest composers of the late 20th century. In addition to that, he had the reputation of being one of the greatest composition teachers during that time as well. He taught at the University of Pennsylvania for a very long time and was highly sought after to study with. Many great composers studied with him. I was fortunate enough to study with one of his students, Thomas Allen LeVines, at the college I attended. Rochberg almost single-handedly ushered in the revival of the Neo Romantic movement here in the US in the early 1970s with some landmark pieces (String Quartets among others) which set a huge trend. All of his music is incredible and in my own personal estimation, he should be considered on the level of an Elliott Carter. Without any question in my mind, at least.


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## annaw

I've been somewhat inactive in the thread recently because I've been a bit preoccupied with many different things. Nevertheless, I've listened to all the recent picks. Webern was an interesting work and Koechlin was very enjoyable (I wonder if Merl's pizzicato fanaticism is contagious ).

While I've managed to get used to serialism, I still sometimes struggle with it when it starts sounding too cacophonous (yes, this is very subjective). However, I think Schoenberg's 4th quartet is a great example of a serial work where that _doesn't_ happen. It's very captivating and interesting. I like that Schoenberg's use of atonalism is somewhat aggressive and definitely driven, not quiet or overly slow. I also love his use of pizzicato in different movements and I find the Largo to be particularly nicely flowing - modern but with a slightly Romantic tinge. I've so far only listened to the Leipziger's recording, which is absolutely stunning and in a great sound. Will definitely give a listen to a few other recordings as well. Anyways, a great pick!


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## Rangstrom

Torkelburger--your argument seems to assume that the goal of atonality is a mandate rather than a choice. Few composers can match Berg's Violin Concerto no matter what the guiding technique. I suspect most will need all the flexibility they can find. Still I have no problem trying tonal music, atonal music or a mixture, I just don't run into many modern composers writing that strictly.

As for the Schönberg 4th on the whole I find it a very interesting work, but on its own merits the 2nd movement is a hard slog for me. The color washes out, the interplay lags and it feels like the earth's gravitational pull has doubled. I tend to listen to quartets as absolute music, but here I assign a mood of depression to the movement and view the 3rd and 4th movements as attempts (albeit unsuccessful) to dig out of the morass. I don't relate the feeling to the 12 tone technique (the same pervades the 2nd movement of the 1897 quartet) and I lack the tools to adequately describe the effect (dense or compressed are terms I've read)--I hear it as the aural equivalent of fruit cake. Yet as part of the whole, it works very well. 

I have a similar reaction to sections of Schönberg's piano concerto and to parts of some of the works or Reger and Henze.


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## HenryPenfold

Well, I'm really enjoying this enterprise!

Taking the steer from Bwv1080, I have listened to the Arditti Quartet's recording of the 4th. I can understand why it is rated so highly by many.

It's a far more urgent reading than the LaSalle and Diotima in particular. The motoric element inherent in the music is more obvious in this performance. The Arditti Quartet get through the piece quicker than my two other comparators (LaSalle 32.07 Diotima 34.29), but there is no sense of rush or speed for the sake of it. Even though they are more 'muscular', I feel no sense of being_ hectored_ as can happen with the more strident renditions of modern music.

In fact the Arditti Quartet is very adept in the first two movements (particularly commendable in the _knotty second_ movement- please excuse my non-musical adjectives!) and then deliver the largo and the finale, the twin peaks of the work, with such a skilled performance that would surely win anyone over.

The sound quality of the Arditti recording is nothing short of astonishing. The instruments are caught very realistically, close to the sonorities of hearing them live and the transients (e.g. the fast sounds of the pizzicatos) enter the exit the sound stage as rapidly as they enter! It's perfectly miked (to my taste) being neither particularly close nor distant. The recording seems louder than both that of the LaSalle & Diotima (I'm listening to: Lasalle 16 bit ripped CD; Diotima 24/96 Hi-Res download; Arditti 24/44 stream from Qobuz).

Back to comparison, although the Quatuor Diotima take 2 minutes 20 seconds longer than the Arditti, I get no sense whatsoever that it is a _slow _performanceand the vital drive and rhythm is brought off perfectly. I must give them the nod, as I feel that they put the music in, what for me is, the correct context of romantic imbued serialism (I don't believe Schoenberg ever achieved escape velocity from Brahms). I enjoy The Quatuor Diotima performance most, it's my no.1 choice.

I don't know if I should check out other recordings or go over these again next.

It strikes me as odd that some people find this music _difficult_. Sneezing while holding a full pint of beer in your hand and not spilling any is difficult - music never is!


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## mikeh375

Torkelburger said:


>


wow, that's some piece. I've never listened to him but am now on YT listening to more. Thanks TB.


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## Torkelburger

mikeh375 said:


> wow, that's some piece. I've never listened to him but am now on YT listening to more. Thanks TB.


You're welcome! Wow, I didn't realize that piece would get this kind of response! There is not a whole lot of his other 12-tone works on the internet I don't think, except his first symphony which is also good. But his 5th symphony is great, and fairly dissonant. I also like his String Quartets 3 through 5, ranging from dissonant to rather tonal. But all great, nonetheless.

Sorry for the slight derail. Want to respond to one more comment and then comment on the 4th SQ topic.


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## HenryPenfold

Torkelburger said:


> You're welcome! Wow, I didn't realize that piece would get this kind of response! There is not a whole lot of his other 12-tone works on the internet I don't think, except his first symphony which is also good. But his 5th symphony is great, and fairly dissonant. I also like his String Quartets 3 through 5, ranging from dissonant to rather tonal. But all great, nonetheless.
> 
> Sorry for the slight derail. Want to respond to one more comment and then comment on the 4th SQ topic.


For me, and I suspect most other people, the 3rd string quartet is _the_ composition. Very surprised that Rochberg's music is such a blind spot - American fans have no excuse!


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## ELbowe

*I guess it is time to get off the fence….I had an inventory of twelve different performers and can say earnestly I have enjoyed all the performances (well maybe the Kolisch Quartet (1937), wasn't to my liking…no disrespect to them but this work seems to really come alive in the "newer" recordings), I would be happy to have any of them in my collection. But settling for just one I would choose LaSalle Quartet; albeit not a recent recording it sounded "new". I kept coming back to it and feeling more comfortable. I listened to each performance at least once even to the point my Early Music collection (majority of my collection) was beginning to talk among themselves, asking: "Has he gone over to the dark side!!" 
Anyway the others I most enjoyed were 
Asasello Quartet, Gringolts Quartet, Quatuor Psophos and watching YouTube live performance of Unison Quartet was fun; seeing the needed essential timing and interplay was fascinating. I now have an appreciation for this work and "enjoyment" is not an exaggeration. Thanks for all the informative and encouraging posts! 
*


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## Torkelburger

> Torkelburger--your argument seems to assume that the goal of atonality is a mandate rather than a choice.


It's just a definition. Atonality means without tonality, so it is music that does not have things that would denote anything tonal (keys, scales, triads, etc.). That's just what atonality is. So naturally, if one was wanting to compose with the aim or goal of writing atonal music, they would write with this in mind.

There's no more "mandates" in this system than in any other. Tonal music has tons of "mandates" as well-tonal voice-leading rules alone would take pages to explain. Do I have the "choice" of writing consecutive fifths no matter how much I like them?

As a composer, I can tell you that setting limits for yourself is extremely beneficial to the act of creation. If you don't set limits, then you will most likely run into "writer's block" very quickly and often. There is nothing more daunting to a creator than the blank page or the blank canvas in front of you with LIMITLESS POSSIBILITIES running through your head. When you narrow those possibilities down, through choices no less, by setting limits and parameters to the materials available to you, you will begin to focus on the task at hand much easier.



> Few composers can match Berg's Violin Concerto no matter what the guiding technique.


But this supports my position, not yours. If serialism results in "strict" and "choice less" decision-making that "limits" your creative process, then ANY composer WOULD be able to match Berg's Violin Concerto, since serialism guides both Berg and each composer's hand in the same exact strict, limited, and choice less way.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Well, I'm really enjoying this enterprise!
> 
> Taking the steer from Bwv1080, I have listened to the Arditti Quartet's recording of the 4th. I can understand why it is rated so highly by many.
> 
> It's a far more urgent reading than the LaSalle and Diotima in particular. The motoric element inherent in the music is more obvious in this performance. The Arditti Quartet get through the piece quicker than my two other comparators (LaSalle 32.07 Diotima 34.29), but there is no sense of rush or speed for the sake of it. Even though they are more 'muscular', I feel no sense of being_ hectored_ as can happen with the more strident renditions of modern music.
> 
> In fact the Arditti Quartet is very adept in the first two movements (particularly commendable in the _knotty second_ movement- please excuse my non-musical adjectives!) and then deliver the largo and the finale, the twin peaks of the work, with such a skilled performance that would surely win anyone over.
> 
> The sound quality of the Arditti recording is nothing short of astonishing. The instruments are caught very realistically, close to the sonorities of hearing them live and the transients (e.g. the fast sounds of the pizzicatos) enter the exit the sound stage as rapidly as they enter! It's perfectly miked (to my taste) being neither particularly close nor distant. The recording seems louder than both that of the LaSalle & Diotima (I'm listening to: Lasalle 16 bit ripped CD; Diotima 24/96 Hi-Res download; Arditti 24/44 stream from Qobuz).
> !


Thanks HP, for saving me writing up my review of the *Arditti* performance. Another very convincing one in this quartet (tbh no-one has ballsed this up). As HP says correctly it's a more muscular, tense performance of the work and certainly doesn't hang around. Very enjoyable and I totally get why this one is highly thought of amongst those who might prefer an edgier performance. I'll sum up all the ones I've listened to tomorrow.


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## Bwv 1080

Dont mean to jump the gun, but am going to be out of pocket tomorrow so want to go ahead an announce the new quartet. Looking at the list, there is a glaring omission I am going to rectify.

The six quartets of Haydn's op20 are widely regarded as the first great string quartets. I was completely unfamiliar with them and have been listening to them this week. All great pieces. Surprisingly, three of the set have fugal finales. I am going to select #5 in F minor for the group. Its one of the fugal finales and the middle movements are quite strong.

Been dabbling with Robert Gjerdingen's work on classical schema so probably will inflict some of my half-baked attempts to analyze the work

A score is available here: https://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op.20_(Haydn,_Joseph)
I tend to prefer HIP recordings, so been listening to the Quatuor Mosaiques recording

So *Haydn Op 20 #5 in Fm HOB.III:35*


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## HenryPenfold

Was going to carry on with the Schoenberg a bit longer, but as I'm not familiar with this particular Haydn opus, I better get a head start, so I'm spinning the only recording I have of it -* Festetics Quartet*.


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Dont mean to jump the gun, but am going to be out of pocket tomorrow so want to go ahead an announce the new quartet. Looking at the list, there is a glaring omission I am going to rectify.
> 
> The six quartets of Haydn's op20 are widely regarded as the first great string quartets. I was completely unfamiliar with them and have been listening to them this week. All great pieces. Surprisingly, three of the set have fugal finales. I am going to select #5 in F minor for the group. Its one of the fugal finales and the middle movements are quite strong.
> 
> Been dabbling with Robert Gjerdingen's work on classical schema so probably will inflict some of my half-baked attempts to analyze the work
> 
> A score is available here: https://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op.20_(Haydn,_Joseph)
> I tend to prefer HIP recordings, so been listening to the Quatuor Mosaiques recording
> 
> So *Haydn Op 20 #5 in Fm HOB.III:35*


Jeezo, I have a lot of the Haydn. Better start getting a list together. Lol. I'll start now.


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## Rangstrom

Torkelburger said:


> Do I have the "choice" of writing consecutive fifths no matter how much I like them?


Sure, if you feel it accomplishes what you want to do.


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## Torkelburger

HenryPenfold said:


> I'm really enjoying listening to this quartet. What I find striking is the warmth and almost romantic feel to some of the passages, despite the fact that this quartet represents a clear move into 12 tone writing, even beyond the third quartet. There are some Bartok style licks in the first bars of the first movement, and in places the music approaches a tune.
> 
> I'm alternating between my two sets, LaSalle and Diotima. Although neither of these performances fall into the trap of playing the music in an 'expected' sterile and colourless way (as some musicians approach _modern_ music), it is the Diotima quartet who seem to nod in the direction of the romantic tradition. They also take over one and a half minutes longer to get through the work, with the largo taking one minute fourteen seconds longer than LaSalle. The largo third movement is an untroubled and rather beautiful near-interlude and the finale, although possibly the most 12 tone of all four movements has a most warm and lyrical charm to it.
> 
> I'm quite surprised how well the LaSalle performance and recording has stood the test of time, given that it was recorded in July 1969. I think I have more than enough to be getting on with, with these two recordings without checking out some of the other sets.


I agree with everything here. It seems warm and romantic to me as well. I think it shows the versatility in Schoenberg's language. I think he purposefully wanted this piece to be romantic. And I don't think there is any sort of "disconnect" between the 12-tone language and the romantic or even sometimes classical sentiments he tries to convey with it. It's interesting that he didn't always try to do that. Like in the Op.31 Variations, I don't think he wanted any romantic sentiments really hardly at all. He was going for more Impressionist and Modern sensibilities in that piece I think. I think the 12 tone system is quite versatile.

I agree with your statements on the Diotima performance (I just heard it from starthrower's post but haven't heard the LaSalle). And to me they really bring a purpose and vision to the "bigger picture" and underlying structure of the piece. And I like the attention to the details, such as, say, at times playing through eighth notes with a slight crescendo instead of just a "sterile" playing of them at the same dynamic.


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## Torkelburger

Bwv 1080 said:


> Seriously, try the Arditti recording
> 
> What other late Schoenberg pieces do you all like? The Piano Concerto is my favorite


Yeah, I'll have to track that down. I like their recordings/performances of the Rihm quartets. I don't listen to Ferneyhough, though.

My favorites of the later works are:

Variations for Orchestra
Piano Concerto
Violin Concerto
String Quartet No. 4
String Trio


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## Torkelburger

Rangstrom said:


> Sure, if you feel it accomplishes what you want to do.


I'll just go out on limb here and make the wild guess that you've never studied 18th century counterpoint.


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## Torkelburger

I hope I did not scare away Portamento. It was not my intention to do so. Hopefully he will come back and take part in the Haydn discussion! (or more SQ4 recordings discussion, etc.) I apologize to the other participants of the thread if I scared him off.


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## Bwv 1080

Torkelburger said:


> Yeah, I'll have to track that down. I like their recordings/performances of the Rihm quartets. I don't listen to Ferneyhough, though.
> 
> My favorites of the later works are:
> 
> Variations for Orchestra
> Piano Concerto
> Violin Concerto
> String Quartet No. 4
> String Trio


Seriously thought about doing one of the Ferneyhough Qts, maybe will when my turn rolls around again Ferneyhough #4 is modelled after Schoenberg's 2nd and that might make a good back-to-back at some point.


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## Torkelburger

Bwv 1080 said:


> Seriously thought about doing one of the Ferneyhough Qts, maybe will when my turn rolls around again Ferneyhough #4 is modelled after Schoenberg's 2nd and that might make a good back-to-back at some point.


Sure, sounds good! I'll give it a shot. I'm interested now.


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## Merl

OK, after a week of Schoenberg SQ4 performances I've gotta say I really enjoyed this one far more than I thought I would. I can happily say that there were no poor recordings of this quartet and the majority were very good or better but there were a few that really stood out. Although I'm going to highlight MY preferred account below I think all of these are terrific recordings and you will probably have different preferences and I can certainly understand that with so many high-quality recordings to choose from.

Asasello Quartet







Stellar ensemble playing and beautiful details mark out this performance for special attention. The tone is slightly on the drier side but that's not a problem and boy the Asasellos absolutely nail the dynamic contrasts here. Gritty and full then softer and more restrained but there's always an edge on this one that makes it so very appealing.

Arditti Quartet







The Ardittis have the full measure of this quartet. They are quick, tense and definitely on the harsher side of performance, often bringing out a more serious Schoenberg but they make it work so well that no-one hearing this could fail to be impressed by their technical prowess. To some this one may sound over-meticulous and cold but as a stark alternative to the Leipzigers this can be refreshing. Its also a performance that gets better as it goes on. The final movement is excellent. Saying that, it's a recording that, as excellent as it is, I may not be returning to as often as the others here. That's not a criticism, btw. Just a fact. 

Diotima Quartet







This clever reading plots a lovely course through the two recordings above. The Diotimas are as technically flawless as their main competitors but where they excel is in capturing the dynamic flow of the quartet. They convey the music so eloquently and have the strongest largo of these three and that's a big plus in this quartet where the 3rd movement sits at the emotional heart of this work. To put it simply the Diotimas are classy, skilled, beautifully recorded and an easy pick.

_My top pick_

*Leipziger Quartet*









On another day this could have gone to one of the 3 recordings above but today it's the Leipzigers who take my top prize. Their ensemble playing is unmatched here and they really bring out the emotion of this piece with an almost menacing, dark tone that I find simply irresistible. There's a textural quality and oneness of vision in this recording that had me gripped from the start. Sometimes they make some purposely mildly disturbing sounds but it's so brilliantly woven into the the warmth of this recording that it sounds natural, unforced, unsettling and enthralling all at once. The largo is magical to these ears. A very special disc to finish off a thoroughly enjoyable week of listening. A great choice for the weekly SQ, Portamento.


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## HenryPenfold

Bwv 1080 said:


> Seriously thought about doing one of the Ferneyhough Qts, maybe will when my turn rolls around again Ferneyhough #4 is modelled after Schoenberg's 2nd and that might make a good back-to-back at some point.


I cannot get on with Ferneyhough. Sounds like all the right notes, but played in the wrong order!

I'm ok with Lachenmann, though.


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## Rangstrom

Torkelburger said:


> I'll just go out on limb here and make the wild guess that you've never studied 18th century counterpoint.


That makes as much sense as any of your other arguments. How many living classical composers write music bound by the restrictions of 18th century counterpoint? I wouldn't know a parallel 5th if I stepped on one, that doesn't stop me from listening to old or new music.

I can't find any compositions under Torkelburger. How about you send me a link to a recording of some of your music? Amazon or ArkivMusic both work.


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## HenryPenfold

Rangstrom said:


> How many living classical composers write music bound by the restrictions of 18th century counterpoint?


I think the point might be that counterpoint is fundamental to virtually all music across the globe and to write 'consecutive fifths' just "because I can", is actually _anti-music_. I'm like you, I don't know a rising fifth from my left gonad. But it doesn't matter.

It's all fun though, eh?


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## Torkelburger

Rangstrom said:


> That makes as much sense as any of your other arguments. How many living classical composers write music bound by the restrictions of 18th century counterpoint? I wouldn't know a parallel 5th if I stepped on one, that doesn't stop me from listening to old or new music.
> 
> I can't find any compositions under Torkelburger. How about you send me a link to a recording of some of your music? Amazon or ArkivMusic both work.


It makes sense. I'm not talking about living classical composers. I'm talking about systems. In particular, the tonal system. I'm saying it had "mandates" that composers of that time had to follow just like the system you criticize.

Do an Advanced Search on this site under my user name and you will be directed to two pages of 37 threads. Click on the ones under "Today's Composers" to find some of my compositions. You can also find more at my Youtube channel which you will also find in the threads. Thank you for your interest.


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## Torkelburger

Also, at least 1 full year of 18th century counterpoint is a requirement at most reputable universities and conservatories, and for composition majors, some schools require even more (mine did).

And Rangstrom, you should really check out a lot of the compositions in the Today's Composers forum, as the vast majority at least a couple years ago, was 18th and 19th century pastiche. So going by this site, living composers write in that style quite regularly.

Let's get back to Haydn and Schoenberg! I'll let you have the last word to spare everyone here.


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## Portamento

Whoa! I don't check this thread for about a day and there's 2 pages of posts to respond to?!


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## Bwv 1080

<soapbox>
Most modern tonal music sucks because it is either pastiche that follows the rules, or does not follow the rules and sounds and just sounds incompetent (Del Tredici anyone?). </soapbox>


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## HenryPenfold

Bwv 1080 said:


> <soapbox>
> Most modern tonal music sucks because it is either pastiche that follows the rules, or does not follow the rules and sounds and just sounds incompetent (Del Tredici anyone?). </soapbox>


There's no doubt that some modern composers are hopelessly out of their depth (no names, no drillpack)


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## Rangstrom

Bwv 1080 said:


> <soapbox>
> Most modern tonal music sucks because it is either pastiche that follows the rules, or does not follow the rules and sounds and just sounds incompetent (Del Tredici anyone?). </soapbox>


Here we go again. There is a thread already for all the true believers to lecture the rest of the great unwashed (like moi) how we don't get it if we don't worship at the foot of their favored technique. They call it modern music even if it has been moribund (serialism) for 50 years. I like some Wolpe. I like some Del Tredici. I don't like being lectured to by some composer wannabe (see Ardono post) about what I should like. My God, TB can't even get a vanity release. My best guess is that Rochberg would ********.

This thread has lost its utility.


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## HenryPenfold

Rangstrom said:


> This thread has lost its utility.


Speak for yourself, winkle.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm finding myself less and less inclined to participate in some of the other TC threads because there's always the risk of running into potentially contentious and/or off-topic subjects, and I don't come here for that. But we have a true amiable listeners' community going on in this thread, and I think it's really something special.


^^:tiphat:

...........


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## starthrower

You put the jinx on it, Brio! Let's move on to the Haydn quartet...


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## Portamento

Wait... was Bwv _not_ being sarcastic? Oh no...

I was going to respond to some of this, but I think it's best we move on.


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## Merl

Here's a list of the Haydn performances. I've probably missed some. Let me know if I have. Btw, have the Hagens done this one at least twice? I'm sure there's an 80s and 90s recording but info is sketchy and I can't be @rsed looking it up. Hopefully you can read my handwriting. I have a few of these and the Auryn cycle is currently on the car USB and I know the Kodaly set well but have never compared them to others so this will be very interesting. I have heard many others but not for some time. Thankfully there are a heap on my streaming service to go at. Better start now


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## sbmonty

Enjoyed the excursion into Schoenberg's twelve tone composition. As well I listened to Five Pieces for Orchestra, Verklärte Nacht, Variations Op. 31, String Quartet No. 2 and String Quartet in D this week. All interesting and enjoyable. I really appreciate this thread. 

Haydn Op. 20/5, H III. 35. I will start with the Quatuor Mosaïques, which I own. My only other recording is the Kodály Quartet's version. Looking forward to this week. Thanks all.


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## Merl

Glad someone picked one of the Sun Quartets (it was only a matter of time, tbh). The 5th quartet isn't my fave of them but its still a fine one and I love its slightly darker, more intense and emotional character. Therefore I'm looking for recordings that capture these emotions whilst keeping those rhythms moving (not as easy as you'd think). I had a late night last night so got to hear a few and then listened to some more this morning. Here's my thoughts. I started with the *St. Lawrence* quartet. A decent enough performance but I wasnt wholly convinced by either the recording quality or their interpretation and found my mind wandering as it progressed. I'm sure there will be better to come. I thought I'd get the* Pro Arte*'s ancient version out of the way quickly. Suffice it to say the 80 year old recording is very thin and wiry but the performance is not one that appeals and sounds very dated. It sounds a littlle 'Miss Marple at afternoon tea' for me. Not my bag at all. The Quatuor *Hanson* are brilliantly recorded and they do capture the darker elements of this quartet very well but I found this recording, on their 'All Shall not die' cd (pretentious? Moi?), a bit too detached and felt that they lost the flow a little. Very nice but again I know I'm going to prefer others. I've never heard the *Medicis* in Haydn and was pleasantly surprised by their warm and well-realised reading. This one was more on the romantic side with some nice use of vibrato but it didn't sound cloying or too sentimental. An enjoyable listen. After reading Hurwitz's comments, many years ago, about the *Buchberger* Haydn quartets, I was expecting to hear this one sound like it was played by Motorhead. However, this was far from the case. Yes, the Buchbergers are more pointed and their phrasing is sharper and edgier but hardly as fierce as I was expecting and this was a fine account that I may have to return to again before I sum this lot up at the end of the week. My final one for now is the *Quatuor Mosaiques* performance. This was difficult and I will return to it later in the week for reasons outlined below. Technically immaculate and beautifully recorded there's no doubting they get to the heart of the music and nail it's technical demands and flow perfectly. Ensemble is superb and there's very little to quibble at. However am I alone in thinking that there was a tiny 'something' missing? Tbh, its a minute niggle as these are excellent performances but it didn't grip me as completely as I expected. I'm definitely returning to this one as it may have just been that I listened to this before taking my car to get fixed this morning or I played it at a lower volume or I was just a bit Haydned-out. I don't know but I will be revisiting this so please don't take my initial reaction as sacrosanct. It's still a highly impressive recording. Remember, I've re-evaluated before on this thread so don't be surprised if it does suddenly leap up in my estimation and hit top spot. We'll see. .


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## Josquin13

Merl writes, "Here's a list of the Haydn performances. I've probably missed some. Let me know if I have. Btw, have the Hagens done this one at least twice? I'm sure there's an 80s and 90s recording but info is sketchy and I can't be @rsed looking it up."

That's an excellent, comprehensive list, as always!, Merl. You've got all of my favorite Op. 20 recordings listed (except for Quatour Schuppanzigh and the Amsterdam Quartet, who've not recorded No. 5). No, the Hagen Quartet has only recorded the Op. 20 set once--for DG early in their career, at least on CD or LP. The 90s set that you're remembering is probably the reissue of the 80s set. However, I don't follow concert performances as closely, so I can't say with certainty that there isn't a live concert by them somewhere. (You may have been thinking about their 2nd recordings of some of Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets for Myrios.)

One Op. 20, no. 5 that is not on your list is a live concert performance by Quatour Ebene on You Tube, which has not made it to CD:






Another is a performance by the Atenea Quartet on You Tube, who appear to be a very young quartet (& are new to me): 



.

I'll probably be listening to Quatour Mosaiques (period), the Ulbrich-Quartett, Chiaroscuro (period), and maybe the Hagen, Kocian, or Pellegrini quartets from my own collection, if I have the time...


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## Merl

A quiet day so got to listen to the *Pelligrini* quartet's very good account earlier. The CPO recording is clear and crisp but perhaps they didn't convey the emotion of the work as expertly as the other two recordings I listened to just after it. One of these was the *Kodaly*'s spirited recording on Naxos. The Kodaly take a slightly brighter approach to the quartet than many others but I find this very refereshing. Ensemble playing and the recording are both excellent and technically this is an impressive performance that is easily recommendable. The last one for today was the polar opposite of the chirpier Kodaly and that was the *Auryn*'s dark, moody reading. Its a serious account but my god the sound this quartet get here is just stunning. The interplay between instruments is top notch and the tone they produce is just ravishing. Add to that a slightly reverberant but uber-realistic soundstage and you have a recording that will take some beating, here.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> A quiet day so got to listen to the *Pelligrini* quartet's very good account earlier. The CPO recording is clear and crisp but perhaps they didn't convey the emotion of the work as expertly as the other two recordings I listened to just after it. One of these was the *Kodaly*'s spirited recording on Naxos. The Kodaly take a slightly brighter approach to the quartet than many others but I find this very refereshing. Ensemble playing and the recording are both excellent and technically this is an impressive performance that is easily recommendable. The last one for today was the polar opposite of the chirpier Kodaly and that was the *Auryn*'s dark, moody reading. Its a serious account but my god the sound this quartet get here is just stunning. The interplay between instruments is top notch and the tone they produce is just ravishing. Add to that a slightly reverberant but uber-realistic soundstage and you have a recording that will take some beating, here.


I have listened to *The Festetics Quartet*, the only release of this opus in my collection. I've listened to the *Chiaroscuro Quartet*, via Qobuz streaming, and also *The Mosaiques Quartet*, also via streaming. I'll probably stick to these three, but the Kodaly Quartet are tempting. I've liked everything they've ever done on Naxos, especially The Emperor, Fifths & Sunrise.

I'll post my thoughts anon, when I've listened more and will have an opinion.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Every time I listen to one of Haydn's quartets, I'm impressed by just how _perfect_ they seem - no unnecessary notes or longeurs, just pure structural logic with a freshness of invention and sheer vitality that never fails to keep me engaged. I think that, among all chamber music, only the works of Brahms top the breadth and beauty to be found among Haydn's quartets. Here, I was especially taken by the finale - so concise, but with a driving fierceness of focus in the angular, chromatic fugue (which - fun fact - is based off the same theme as "By with His stripes we are healed" in Handel's Messiah). I do have to say that I prefer some of the others in Op. 20, especially the G minor that we did earlier in the thread - but the differences are all pretty trivial with music of this quality. I started with the Naxos Kodaly recording because I always find that they offer reliable, polished, yet exciting and individual music-making in great recorded sound. But I'll be hearing others!


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## starthrower

I listened to the live Ebéne Quartet on YouTube and I don't doubt the music is everything Brio described but I wasn't as engaged. The musicians were obviously very much enjoying themselves but it all sounds too polite to my ears. I don't want to give up on this music because I invested in a complete set a couple years ago so I will keep trying different quartets in the hopes that something clicks. I'll give another listen to all six of op. 20 again and see what happens.


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## Helgi

starthrower said:


> I listened to the live Ebéne Quartet on YouTube and I don't doubt the music is everything Brio described but I wasn't as engaged. The musicians were obviously very much enjoying themselves but it all sounds too polite to my ears. I don't want to give up on this music because I invested in a complete set a couple years ago so I will keep trying different quartets in the hopes that something clicks. I'll give another listen to all six of op. 20 again and see what happens.


I've been listening to a podcast series from the Wigmore Hall, an introduction to string quartets by music teacher Roy Stratford, and much of the first two lectures are on Haydn: https://wigmore-hall.org.uk/podcasts/introduction-to-the-string-quartet-parts-1-2-3-and-4

It's great stuff!


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## Merl

I've been up since 8am so I've been able to listen to a few and I've got to do some ironing in a bit so I'll be able to hear some more too. Anyway, I started with the *Doric *Quartet this morning. The Dorics are usually spot-on technically (and they are here too) but for all their technical acumen it's the interpretation that doesn't work for me here. I'm not sure their use of only sparse vibrato, harder accents and fluctuating tempi work in unison in this quartet. It may do elsewhere but not here. They also make some odd choices with the dynamics. It just doesn't work for me. The *Lindsays* tend to be an acquired taste, with some people people whinging about intonation in their later recordings but does that matter if the music-making is this emotionally sensitive? Well that depends on the individual. For me, they manage this one very well, especially the 3rd movement. It's similar in style to the Dorics but nowhere near as perverse and angular with accents and dynamics. Lovely recording too in a nice acoustic. The *Dudoks* are sweeter toned here in a very similar style to the Medicis, who I reviewed earlier, and I liked their approach. Nice playing too but it became a little samey as it progressed. Decent but there are better ones. Whilst I felt that minimum vibrato affected the Dorics, in their recording, leading to an arid feel to the music the *Chiaroscuro* keep the rhythms flowing. This is an interesting period performance and the gut strings add a nice colour to the sound. The first violin is a little dominant but the playing is very persuasive and this is a mighty fine account indeed, very much akin to the Mosaiques. The *Emersons* aren't as sumptuously recorded as the Auryn's but they are quicker and play with their usual great technical skill and a high degree of sensitivity. I don't think I've heard much of their Haydn before now but they are simply superb here. Listen to those wonderful little violin runs in the 3rd movement! A delightful performance.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Bwv 1080 said:


> Dont mean to jump the gun, but am going to be out of pocket tomorrow so want to go ahead an announce the new quartet. Looking at the list, there is a glaring omission I am going to rectify.
> 
> The six quartets of Haydn's op20 are widely regarded as the first great string quartets. I was completely unfamiliar with them and have been listening to them this week. All great pieces. Surprisingly, three of the set have fugal finales. I am going to select #5 in F minor for the group. Its one of the fugal finales and the middle movements are quite strong.
> 
> Been dabbling with Robert Gjerdingen's work on classical schema so probably will inflict some of my half-baked attempts to analyze the work
> 
> A score is available here: https://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartets,_Op.20_(Haydn,_Joseph)
> I tend to prefer HIP recordings, so been listening to the Quatuor Mosaiques recording
> 
> So *Haydn Op 20 #5 in Fm HOB.III:35*


Great pick. I think I have a recording of these too.


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## Helgi

I've done some listening today, and although I love melancholy Haydn I didn't expect to enjoy repeated listenings of this one as much as I have.

I started off with *Quatuor Mosaiques*, an excellent recording that I was already familiar with. Don't really have much to say about it, but I will say that I found the overall sound and tone of the *Chiaroscuro* to be more appropriate for the work. It's darker and even seemed a tad melodramatic right after the Mosaiques, but then it just sounded spot on. But first; I was listening to it on headphones from Spotify (the Chiaroscuro), and there was this weird fluctuation in the soundstage, between stereo channels, a drugged sort of effect, and I didn't even get through the first movement because it gave me motion sickness. The samples on Presto didn't have this problem, though, and I was happy to pay €10 for a digital copy. Very good performance and well recorded, and I look forward to listening to the rest of the set (I bought both volumes). It took me about an hour to stop feeling queasy after listening to it on Spotify though :lol:

I then listened to a couple of modern instrument recordings, although I believe the *Doric Quartet* used period bows. I'm not sure what that does to the sound, but my impressions were that they have a lovely, rich (and rustic?) sound that I found immediately likeable. And I have to disagree with Merl here; the dynamics really worked for me, the hushed excitement of the finale for example. I enjoyed this one a lot. Sounded sensitive, musical and very _accomplished_, for lack of a better word. Next up were the *Hagen Quartett*, that I really like in Mozart, and I found them very good here as well. The opening movement sounded a little rushed in places, but that was not at all the case in the Menuet and even less so in the Adagio where they seem to have all the time in the world. I think I prefer the Doric overall, but maybe this one would stand up better to repeated listening.


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## Mandryka

I heard this music for the first time in a concert from The Lindsays, which turned up later on this recoding









One great favourite of mine is The Pro Arte









But maybe the most impressive of the old school recordings is the Tatrai, IMO a real high point of modern instrument Haydn performance on record


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## starthrower

I looked up the Haydn quartets in my Third Ear guide and it's interesting what they wrote about the Mosaiques, and Festetics quartets. With the Mosaiques, the first violin is the dominant voice followed by the cello. Where as the Festetics take a more even handed chordal approach with all four voices evenly matched for a more lyrical sound. I don't know how accurate this analysis is but I'm interested in how it affects what the listener hears in the music. Anyway, I started in late last night with the Mosaiques on YouTube and they have a beautiful sound so I'll continue with them for now. If I listen late at night with headphones it's more conducive for active listening otherwise things just fade into the background amid the distractions.


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## annaw

The Haydn was a great choice and I'm really enjoying it! I've been reading Faulkner and binge listening to Haydn today - a very recommendable combination .

Auryn's recording is beyond great. Their approach is clean, unified, and extremely natural. Tacet's sound is stellar and, to be honest, I like its reverberant soundstage, because I just happen to be fond of it (I know - I have well-argued objective reasons to justify my preferences lol). I don't have much more to say about it, because it simply nails everything for me personally. At the moment, this is prolly the finest recording I've heard.

Emerson's recording is also a brilliant account of the work. It's delicate and refined, which seem to be quite essential for a good performance of this quartet. This doesn't mean it's not moody or emotional when it has to be, but their attention to dynamics makes the recording really stand out to me - it's sensitive, as Merl already pointed out. The dynamics are quite a crucial part of the work and getting them right feels comparable to a writer finding the right words; there's one choice, which is more effective than the others, and in my opinion Emersons are finding the correct ones very effectively.

I listened to the Leipzigers right after listening to the Emersons. This gave quite a good contrast, because the Leipzigers happen to play it significantly slower (Leipzigers 11:20 vs 7:19 Emersons). Leipzigers Romanticise the work a bit and give a lot of attention to the phrasing, which makes the recording emotionally involved and expressive. Maybe a bit too involved and expressive? To some extent, I feel their approach substitutes the Classical delicacy with Romantic emotional expressiveness. It's much different from the two above, but whether one likes the interpretation or not, the playing itself is still impressive.


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## starthrower

I picked up the Emerson's 3 CD Schubert set last week and I love their playing. It's swift and precise but in a good way that keeps me engaged with the music. But it's too bad they record for DG, home of some of the worst CD mastering I've ever heard. The Schubert set is the worst sounding chamber string set in my collection so I'll stick to streaming their other recordings. But I'll check out some of their Haydn.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> I picked up the Emerson's 3 CD Schubert set last week and I love their playing. It's swift and precise but in a good way that keeps me engaged with the music. But it's too bad they record for DG, home of some of the worst CD mastering I've ever heard. The Schubert set is the worst sounding chamber string set in my collection so I'll stick to streaming their other recordings. But I'll check out some of their Haydn.


I adore that Schubert set by the Emersons! I'd never noticed a problem with the sound quality. I guess that's all I'll be aware of from now on, so thanks for chuffing up one of my most treasured listening experiences! :lol:


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> I looked up the Haydn quartets in my Third Ear guide and it's interesting what they wrote about the Mosaiques, and Festetics quartets. With the Mosaiques, the first violin is the dominant voice followed by the cello. Where as the *Festetics take a more even handed chordal approach with all four voices evenly matched for a more lyrical sound*. I don't know how accurate this analysis is but I'm interested in how it affects what the listener hears in the music. Anyway, I started in late last night with the Mosaiques on YouTube and they have a beautiful sound so I'll continue with them for now. If I listen late at night with headphones it's more conducive for active listening otherwise things just fade into the background amid the distractions.


It's palpable. I'll mention it when I come to post my thoughts after a few more listens of a few more combos.


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> I adore that Schubert set by the Emersons! I'd never noticed a problem with the sound quality. I guess that's all I'll be aware of from now on, so thanks for chuffing up one of my most treasured listening experiences! :lol:


There are a few different editions and re-issues and apparently I picked the wrong one. I checked some reviews afterwards and one of them echoed my sentiments concerning the sound. I bought it quickly on a bargain offer from the vendor. Inconsistency with sound quality has been my experience with DG over the years. But I'm in complete agreement about the music and their playing, so I'll just listen past the sound and get into the music. Okay, back to Haydn...


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Every time I listen to one of Haydn's quartets, I'm impressed by just how _perfect_ they seem - no unnecessary notes or longeurs, just pure structural logic with a freshness of invention and sheer vitality that never fails to keep me engaged. I think that, among all chamber music, only the works of Brahms top the breadth and beauty to be found among Haydn's quartets. Here, I was especially taken by the finale - so concise, but with a driving fierceness of focus in the angular, chromatic fugue (which - fun fact - is based off the same theme as "By with His stripes we are healed" in Handel's Messiah). I do have to say that I prefer some of the others in Op. 20, especially the G minor that we did earlier in the thread - but the differences are all pretty trivial with music of this quality. I started with the Naxos Kodaly recording because I always find that they offer reliable, polished, yet exciting and individual music-making in great recorded sound. But I'll be hearing others!


I agree with you about Haydn. His music is always fresh and exciting to these ears. I love Brahms, but I do find it extremely odd that this master of classical forms wrote string quartets that are nowhere near the equal of his symphonies, concertos and other chamber works, in my very humble opinion. I'm a chamber music fan, so it's not the usual excuse you might hear from those that need a massive symphony or a flashy concerto to get going. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't believe Brahms' string quartets are as well-regarded as most of his other multi-movement, instrumental compositions. This includes the sublime Clarinet Quintet, Piano Quintet, Piano Quartets, Piano Trios, Clarinet Trio, Violin Sonatas, Cello Sonatas and, ironically, the String Quintets and Sextets. One would think that if ever there was a post-Beethoven composer who would write immortal string quartets, it would be Brahms...but I don't believe he did. Part of the fault lies with me; I don't believe I've heard any Brahms quartet more than two or three times, and to be honest, I usually press stop before the end.

Sorry, ACB. I previously posted about how civil this thread was (We BOTH jinxed that!:lol and bragged about how members don't go off on tangents here. I guess this is a tangent, so I will happily listen to Haydn played by the Kodaly Quartet.


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## Merl

I can only echo all of annaw's comments about the *Leipziger* recording. Frankly I was quite disappointed with it considering the high quality of much of their other work but just goes to show that listening without bias is essential. It's definitely a bit schmaltzy for me regardless of how beautifully the Leipzigers play it and unlike the Auryn's who are similarly broad I felt it started to lag. The *Hagens* were, as often, a steady guide through this one. Its a fine account but doesn't challenge the very best for me.


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## SearsPoncho

Of course I love the Haydn, and I always enjoy listening to his minor key works, as well as those immortal minor key works of Mozart. I'm particularly thinking of Haydn's Op. 76, #2 quartet in D minor, as well as Mozart's K.421 quartet in the same key. The Op. 20, #5 occasionally sounds like a harbinger of those two masterpieces. I'm a big admirer of the Kodaly Quartet's Haydn, but this is not one of the highlights of their set. It sounds a bit too much like it's on auto-pilot. Too laid back for me.


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## Allegro Con Brio

SearsPoncho said:


> I agree with you about Haydn. His music is always fresh and exciting to these ears. I love Brahms, but I do find it extremely odd that this master of classical forms wrote string quartets that are nowhere near the equal of his symphonies, concertos and other chamber works, in my very humble opinion. I'm a chamber music fan, so it's not the usual excuse you might hear from those that need a massive symphony or a flashy concerto to get going. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't believe Brahms' string quartets are as well-regarded as most of his other multi-movement, instrumental compositions. This includes the sublime Clarinet Quintet, Piano Quintet, Piano Quartets, Piano Trios, Clarinet Trio, Violin Sonatas, Cello Sonatas and, ironically, the String Quintets and Sextets. One would think that if ever there was a post-Beethoven composer who would write immortal string quartets, it would be Brahms...but I don't believe he did. Part of the fault lies with me; I don't believe I've heard any Brahms quartet more than two or three times, and to be honest, I usually press stop before the end.
> 
> Sorry, ACB. I previously posted about how civil this thread was (We BOTH jinxed that!:lol and bragged about how members don't go off on tangents here. I guess this is a tangent, so I will happily listen to Haydn played by the Kodaly Quartet.


I actually agree with everything you said here! My comparison was with Brahms's chamber music _as a whole_. Brahms is my second favorite composer, but his quartets are a very long way from being among my favorites of his works; I prefer all the works that you mentioned and it was those that I had in mind. So, another way to phrase my initial comment could be: "My two favorite bodies of work in all of chamber music are Brahms's chamber works and Haydn's string quartets." Although Haydn also wrote a lot of excellent piano trios as well!


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> The *Emersons* aren't as sumptuously recorded as the Auryn's but they are quicker and play with their usual great technical skill and a high degree of sensitivity. I don't think I've heard much of their Haydn before now but they are simply superb here. Listen to those wonderful little violin runs in the 3rd movement! A delightful performance.


The Emersons sold me on this quartet. They play the hell out of the fugue. And they kept me interested throughout the whole piece. I also gave No.1 a listen and it certainly has a beautiful Adagio movement. I take back my previous accusations of politeness. I just wasn't listening closely enough.


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## Merl

I need to listen to that Emerson Haydn set in more detail. I was well impressed with their performance in this one. I've got about 6 recordings scheduled to listen to tomorrow.

Edit: I've just sneaked the *Kocian* and *Hermes* recordings in, before bed. The Kocians are nicely rounded, like the Pelligrinis, but again not top of the shop. It's quite a light recording caught in a lovely acoustic with some sweet-toned playing. Decent, but I prefer the Quatuor Hermes here, who have a similar acoustic and are a bit more alert. They play with an engaging freshness and enthusiasm that I really enjoyed. Time for bed.


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## ELbowe

*I don't have a recording of this work in my collection but searching on line there appears to be no-end of availability as I am up to 14 performances earmarked and still counting. My first foray was listening to Quatuor Mosaiques' performance/recording and I am so impressed and wonder can it get better? After the Schoenberg week I may be able to consciously differentiate between performances over the next week. Lovely choice! *


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## BlackAdderLXX

Chiaroscuro Quartet for me. I've listened to this before when I first bought the op20 recordings, but now listening to it a couple more times I have to say this is a beautiful work. It strikes me as charming but in a melancholy way. I can't remember which of you it was that turned me on to Alina Ibragimova but I really love her chamber playing so this is a no brainier for me.


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## starthrower

deleted.........


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## Merl

Another 4 up to now today. I started a bit negatively with the *Festetics* recording and sorry Festy-fans but I didn't get this one at all. I can deal with almost non-existent vibrato but when combined with a very dry soundstage it left me totally cold. I didn't like this empty-sounding recording, I'm afraid. Things slightly improved with the gentle *Angeles* recording but it's lack of bite didn't float my boat either. Like the Festetics, it was played well but the interpretation was too 'Papa Haydn' for me. The 3rd movement felt terribly slow and was far too tepid. Fortunately things took a massive turn for the better with the *Jerusalem* quartet who put some real bite into proceedings, driving hard but intelligently. This is a screamer of a recording with the quartet really revving up to a meaty fugue. Excellent stuff with nice dynamics and phrasing. Just as superb (and possibly better) was the *Tatrai* recording. Apart from the analogue hiss you'd never know this recording was over 50 years old. The Tatrais reveal details and play passages like no other quartet I've heard. Listen to their sublime 3rd movement and you'll hear what I mean, full of little nuggets of sound, Moody cello and charming voicing. I loved this recording. Its full of flair, beautiful phrasing and excellent, sensibly-chosen dynamics. As with other Tatrai recordings I've heard the violins sound slightly sinewy but it gives an edge to this performance that just works. What a very pleasant surprise to end on. I actually said a positive "yessss!" when this one finished. Top notch.


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## Helgi

Listened to Auryn right after the Emersons, and what a difference in recorded sound! I take it that not everyone likes a reverberant acoustic for string quartets, but this sounds like perfection to me. Spacious and intimate at the same time. Quite stunning.

Beautiful playing as well, a word that came to mind was _friendly_ although I'm not quite sure if that means anything in this context. Warm perhaps.

Am now listening to their recording of Op. 50.


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## Bwv 1080

I missed in looking over the list that another op 20 qt had been done before, but its been a while.

As I said, been interested in galant schemata - the set formulae that were used to construct phrases in 18th century (and into 19th century) music. The idea is that certain schemas were used to open then there were others used for answer. This quartet opens with a do-re-mi schema followed by a prinner modulating to the dominant (a descending stepwise bass). This schema came about due to the large, but finite, number of acceptable counterpoint solutions to certain basslines and melodic figures. Mastery of these, much like how a chess grandmaster knows all the openings and counters, is what allowed 18th century composers to be so prolific and such great improvisers - they could mix and match these templates like jazz players putting licks together.

http://openmusictheory.com/schemataSummary.html


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## Merl

This will probably be my last batch so took the opportunity early this morning and all afternoon (whilst out on non-class contact time) to come home and listen to the rest of the available recordings of this quartet on Spotify. First up was the* London Haydn* quartet account. Decent and caught in very good sound it maybe missed that extra detail to take it to the top but fine. Both the Daedalus and the Dudok accounts were better though. The* Daedalus* quartet seemed to make all the right choices and this performance had a lyrical flow I found very engaging. The *Dudoks* were similar in their vision to the Daedalus. Lots of excellent detail and another beautifully caught performance of very high quality. The *Amadeus*' live account was played well but I couldn't deal with the exceptionally dry tone of the recording which robbed the work of its charm and spoiled an otherwise interesting performance. The young* Hermes* quartet play with a certain degree of imagination and tried a few little flourishes which mostly came off leaving a decent, if slightly flawed recording. I thoroughly enjoyed the *Salomon* Quartet's rich and vibrato-heavy account with a quite lovely siciliano. They kept me intrigued with ensemble playing of a high standard. The remastered mono *Schneider* performance was a little shrill on the ear and with the Tatrais ruling the roost on older accounts I found this a capable but far inferior alternative. The *Dekanys* were fine, if unspectacular, but the* Fine Arts* quartet were much better, combining playing of lyrical beauty and seamless torrents of delicacy in their late 60s live at WFMT Radio recording. A lovely version. The *Aeolian* quartet, from their complete cycle, were a bit too pleasant in their satisfactory reading but there's another here I may need to relisten to and that was athe quirky and highly individual *Szymanowski* recording. This young quartet seem as though they are improvising with the music, on the fly, but listening a bit closer they are merely changing the phrasing and dynamics to create a very different soundscape. I'm not sure whether I really like this yet or find it over-fussy but one thing is for sure and it's that this quartet know this music extremely well and are VERY comfortable playing it. It doesnt have the flow of other recordings but it certainly sounds very different. If you have a streaming service I'd encourage you to listen yourself and post your comments. Right, I'm Haydned out. I'll probably summarise this lot tomorrow or Thursday. Shame I couldn't get any access to the highly thought of Ulbrich or Tokyo accounts of this quartet but I can only review what I can access.


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> I missed in looking over the list that another op 20 qt had been done before, but its been a while.
> 
> As I said, been interested in galant schemata - the set formulae that were used to construct phrases in 18th century (and into 19th century) music. The idea is that certain schemas were used to open then there were others used for answer. This quartet opens with a do-re-mi schema followed by a prinner modulating to the dominant (a descending stepwise bass). This schema came about due to the large, but finite, number of acceptable counterpoint solutions to certain basslines and melodic figures. Mastery of these, much like how a chess grandmaster knows all the openings and counters, is what allowed 18th century composers to be so prolific and such great improvisers - they could mix and match these templates like jazz players putting licks together.
> 
> http://openmusictheory.com/schemataSummary.html


You lost me on the 3rd line with 'gallant schemata', Bwv. I need a lie down, now.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> The* Daedalus* quartet seemed to make all the right choices and this performance had a lyrical flow I found very engaging. The *Dudoks* were similar in their vision to the Daedalus. Lots of excellent detail and another beautifully caught performance of very high quality.


I'm listening to Daedalus on YouTube. These have a similarly beautifully recorded sound akin to my Angeles set which everyone seems to dismiss. You hear the sound of the room but not too excessive with the reverb. This quartet sounds really good! Thanks, Merl! For myself, No.4 is the easiest quartet to get into of this group of six. The Adagio movement is something special.


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## Merl

OK here goes a quick summary...my opinions as ever so dont shoot me!

Very Good
Doric ( better on 2nd listen)
Hagen
London Haydn
Medici
Hermes
Dekany
Medici
Szymanowski
Buchberger
Pelligrini

Very Impressive
Chiaroscuro
Lindsays
Daedalus
Kodaly
Dudok
Salomon
Fine Arts

*Special*
Jerusalem
Emerson
















*Terrific*
Tatrai - This recording is something else. There's a flow, a style, a 'je ne sais quoi' about this one that I find so appealing. Love it! Detailed in a way that others aren't and frankly thouroughly engaging.









*MY PICK*

*Auryn*

This is the 3rd time I've put an Auryn recording at the top of my picks and it isn't because I'm a fanboy. It's simply that they are just utterly mesmeric in their playing in this quartet. Gorgeous. Buy it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Listening to the Auryn right now and loving their beauty of tone and phrasing, even including some nice portamenti, which is not something you hear very often from modern ensembles! A winner for sure. The other two I listened to are the Mosaïques (natural, secure, and thoroughly musical) and the Lindsays (creative playing as always with them, but a little too "cuddly Papa Haydn" for me).

Anyone who joins this thread and wants to be added to the nominating list, just give a shout-out. *Helgi*, would you like to be added?


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## Helgi

Sure!

As long as you don't put me on just yet, I'm still learning the ropes.


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## Merl

Helgi said:


> Sure!
> 
> As long as you don't put me on just yet, I'm still learning the ropes.


There are no ropes. Just jump in. I wish I'd jumped in earlier on this thread. I missed a few faves in the first month.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Listening to the Auryn right now and loving their beauty of tone and phrasing, even including some nice portamenti, which is not something you hear very often from modern ensembles! A winner for sure.


Totally agree, ACB. It's nice to hear touches like that. We should learn from the past. The Auryns obviously have.


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## Bwv 1080

Here is Robert Gjerdingen’s analysis of the poco adagio of the GM SQ to get an idea of what can be done analyzing these works with schemata


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> OK here goes a quick summary...my opinions as ever so dont shoot me!
> 
> *Auryn*
> 
> This is the 3rd time I've put an Auryn recording at the top of my picks and it isn't because I'm a fanboy. It's simply that they are just utterly mesmeric in their playing in this quartet. Gorgeous. Buy it!
> 
> View attachment 149314


Thanks for the tip, listening now and concur, nice contrast to the more austere HIP Mosaiques


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> OK here goes a quick summary...my opinions as ever so dont shoot me!
> 
> Very Good
> Doric ( better on 2nd listen)
> Hagen
> London Haydn
> Medici
> Hermes
> Dekany
> Medici
> Szymanowski
> Buchberger
> Pelligrini
> 
> Very Impressive
> Chiaroscuro
> Lindsays
> Daedalus
> Kodaly
> Dudok
> Salomon
> Fine Arts
> 
> *Special*
> Jerusalem
> Emerson
> 
> View attachment 149311
> 
> View attachment 149312
> 
> 
> *Terrific*
> Tatrai - This recording is something else. There's a flow, a style, a 'je ne sais quoi' about this one that I find so appealing. Love it! Detailed in a way that others aren't and frankly thouroughly engaging.
> 
> View attachment 149313
> 
> 
> *MY PICK*
> 
> *Auryn*
> 
> This is the 3rd time I've put an Auryn recording at the top of my picks and it isn't because I'm a fanboy. It's simply that they are just utterly mesmeric in their playing in this quartet. Gorgeous. Buy it!
> 
> View attachment 149314


Thank you, Merl! I will buy it.


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## HenryPenfold

Having initially alternated between the *Chiaroscuro*, *Mosaiques* and *Festetics* quartets, I found the latter's sound to be arid and nearly unpleasant on the ear. I'm certainly 'pitch-challenged', but even I found their intonation stringent. The lack of vibrato, which is fine by me in principle, and the possibility that they use the most austere examples of _instruments d'epoche, _meant that I favoured the more warm and dare I say sweet sounds from the other quartets.

However, a strange thing happened in that each time I finished listening to the others, I was drawn back to the Festetics. I didn't understand why until the fifth or six listen that I realised that the Festetics were playing almost as one instrument, rather than a team of four. The music is presented as an integrated whole with no specific focusing on any given instrument at any given time. (something that *starthrower* similarly comments on in *post #1899*)

To my ears, there is something ineffably 'right' about this approach. The music is almost asking to be played like this. The more I listened, the more I found the music utterly engaging and the performance even graceful. I stopped listening to the Chiascoro and Mosaiques and was absorbed with the Festetics.

I enjoyed the music very much, especially the engaging first movement and the tremendous fourth movement (Haydn certainly doesn't have a finale problem!).

I wish I could have given more time to this week's quartet and contributed more on this thread, but a project I've been working on reached a critical point and I had to throw a lot of time at it.

Anyway, my final comments are, get over the first impressions of the 'scritchy-scratchy' instruments, and listen more deeply to what the Festetics are doing with an instrumentally _homogenous_ sound and you might just feel that this is how this opus should go!

Ignore this recording at your peril!

This is the only complete set I own, because it was an absolute bargain (£15 16 bit download) and recommended to me by a musician ....


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## SearsPoncho

What great comparative reviews by all. Yeah, this is the best thread on TC!


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## starthrower

I'm going to keep plugging away with my Angeles Haydn set. The recorded sound is beautiful and I don't have time to listen to a dozen or more different ensembles. I don't know how Merl does it? I'm on an Italian opera exploration binge right now and when I need a break I switch to string quartets. Looking forward to the next choice this weekend.


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## BlackAdderLXX

SearsPoncho said:


> What great comparative reviews by all. Yeah, this is the best thread on TC!


This is true.

I have been on a "listen to the music you already own instead of buying new stuff" kick so I've just been listening to the Chairoscuro all week. This is a fantastic work. I need to spend more time with Haydn.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Slightly early weekly reminder: *Sbmonty* is up for next week's pick.

Current order of nominators, with some newcomers added:

sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Simplicissimus
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Iota
Malx
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi


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## HenryPenfold

BlackAdderLXX said:


> This is true.
> 
> I have been on a "listen to the music you already own instead of buying new stuff" kick so I've just been listening to the Chairoscuro all week. This is a fantastic work. I need to spend more time with Haydn.


I couldn't remember whose signature I cribbed! Your new year's resolution completely overlapped with mine, so I didn't see the point of re-inventing the wheel. I hope you don't mind! (I can provide you with contact details of my agent, he deals with all intellectual property issues on my behalf).


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## BlackAdderLXX

HenryPenfold said:


> I couldn't remember whose signature I cribbed! Your new year's resolution completely overlapped with mine, so I didn't see the point of re-inventing the wheel. I hope you don't mind! (I can provide you with contact details of my agent, he deals with all intellectual property issues on my behalf).


You're good. Just give me 10% of your post likes and we'll call it fair.


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## Helgi

HenryPenfold said:


> Having initially alternated between the *Chiaroscuro*, *Mosaiques* and *Festetics* ...


I think the lower pitch tuning works really well here. Of these three I prefer the Chiaroscuro; the recorded sound, the dark tone, the dynamics and overall expressive approach, even though they verge on the over-expressive at times. At least they never sound casual!

In fact I think the Chiaroscuro are my overall favourite so far.


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## ELbowe

*With the risk of repeating myself I really enjoyed all (16?) performances I listened to over the week. This is a wonderful piece of music and so glad I have come to know it better. Any of these I would be pleased to have any in my collection however it came down to three that I kept returning to ….Jerusalem, Auryn and Quatuor Mosaiques (YouTube). Unable to articulate why but Mosaiques is the one that gave me so much peace in a week where that commodity was in short supply. Thanks! *


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## Merl

As HP, ST and Helgi (amongst others) have shown, it just goes to show the difference in what we we hear as individuals and why we have certain preferences. I've tried the Festetics again, btw HP, but I still can't cope with the sound but others (like you) will enjoy it. As I said, I had no problems with the playing (which is excellent). What's good is we have so many different interpretations to choose from. On other lesser known pieces the choice can be far more limited. Haydn's quartets weren't an immediate love for me (like his symphonies) but frequent play, over the years, has brought a familiarity that has turned into a great love. I think the op. 20 quartets are a perfect example of Haydn's terrific skill to create music that still sounds as fresh and delightful as it did when he wrote it. I had them playing in my class this afternoon whilst I was doing art with the keyworkers' children. They said it was relaxing and picked out the 3rd movement of the 5th quartet as their slight favourite. I wouldn't argue with them. Incidentally, everyone's favourite critic, Mr Hurwitz, did a video on the op. 20 quartets that I only saw (and commented upon) the other day, after I had posted my comments here. Interesting talk, tbh. Coincidentally, he used the Auryn's recording for his talk.


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## sbmonty

I've been pondering some choices for next week. A thought crossed my mind. This is a wonderful thread replete with erudite, passionate, companionable and humorous contributors, so this is definitely not a criticism. Just an idea.

It seems that the choices with numerous recordings generate the most discussion and insight, not surprisingly. Comparative listening is one of the joys of classical music exploration. If a chosen work has very few recordings available, then this opportunity is diminished. To mitigate this and encourage exploration of lesser known works, I was wondering if there could be *the option to instead choose two lesser known works* to listen and discuss during the week, perhaps but not necessarily with some sort of reason informing the choices.

For example two works influenced by a previous composer. Or from a particular region. Or by a particular performer. Or using particular techniques that might be rewarding and fun to explore.

The only restriction would be that there are relatively few recordings available for each of the two. So one would never choose a Beethoven quartet and a Bartok quartet for example. Perhaps no more than three or four commercially available recordings for each would be the limit. Not a firm limit of course. In other words just judgement and common sense.

What does everyone think? I could try that this week or we could discuss further and stick to the original plan for this week. Of course maybe this is a bad idea, as this is a really great thread, so no reason to fix what is not broken. Thanks for considering. Thoughts?


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> I've been pondering some choices for next week. A thought crossed my mind. This is a wonderful thread replete with erudite, passionate, companionable and humorous contributors, so this is definitely not a criticism. Just an idea.
> 
> It seems that the choices with numerous recordings generate the most discussion and insight, not surprisingly. Comparative listening is one of the joys of classical music exploration. If a chosen work has very few recordings available, then this opportunity is diminished. To mitigate this and encourage exploration of lesser known works, I was wondering if there could be *the option to instead choose two lesser known works* to listen and discuss during the week, perhaps but not necessarily with some sort of reason informing the choices.
> 
> For example two works influenced by a previous composer. Or from a particular region. Or by a particular performer. Or using particular techniques that might be rewarding and fun to explore.
> 
> The only restriction would be that there are relatively few recordings available for each of the two. So one would never choose a Beethoven quartet and a Bartok quartet for example. Perhaps no more than three or four commercially available recordings for each would be the limit. Not a firm limit of course. In other words just judgement and common sense.
> 
> What does everyone think? I could try that this week or we could discuss further and stick to the original plan for this week. Of course maybe this is a bad idea, as this is a really great thread, so no reason to fix what is not broken. Thanks for considering. Thoughts?


Sounds like a good idea SBM. Personally, I'm happy with that. At least it's not over a hundred recordings of Debussy's SQ or Death and the Maiden. Go for it, I say.


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## annaw

sbmonty said:


> I've been pondering some choices for next week. A thought crossed my mind. This is a wonderful thread replete with erudite, passionate, companionable and humorous contributors, so this is definitely not a criticism. Just an idea.
> 
> It seems that the choices with numerous recordings generate the most discussion and insight, not surprisingly. Comparative listening is one of the joys of classical music exploration. If a chosen work has very few recordings available, then this opportunity is diminished. To mitigate this and encourage exploration of lesser known works, I was wondering if there could be *the option to instead choose two lesser known works* to listen and discuss during the week, perhaps but not necessarily with some sort of reason informing the choices.
> 
> For example two works influenced by a previous composer. Or from a particular region. Or by a particular performer. Or using particular techniques that might be rewarding and fun to explore.
> 
> The only restriction would be that there are relatively few recordings available for each of the two. So one would never choose a Beethoven quartet and a Bartok quartet for example. Perhaps no more than three or four commercially available recordings for each would be the limit. Not a firm limit of course. In other words just judgement and common sense.
> 
> What does everyone think? I could try that this week or we could discuss further and stick to the original plan for this week. Of course maybe this is a bad idea, as this is a really great thread, so no reason to fix what is not broken. Thanks for considering. Thoughts?


I think this is a great idea  !


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## starthrower

I was thinking of a quartet that I believe has only one recording. I may choose it when my turn comes around. Merl will have time to catch up on some television.


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## sbmonty

starthrower said:


> I was thinking of a quartet that I believe has only one recording. I may choose it when my turn comes around. Merl will have time to catch up on some television.


Otherwise Merl may have to quit his day job!


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## Merl

Imagine if the two picked were Schubert 14 and Dvorak 12. I'd have to get up at 3am and listen solidly till midnight every day for a month! Lol.


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## Allegro Con Brio

sbmonty said:


> I've been pondering some choices for next week. A thought crossed my mind. This is a wonderful thread replete with erudite, passionate, companionable and humorous contributors, so this is definitely not a criticism. Just an idea.
> 
> It seems that the choices with numerous recordings generate the most discussion and insight, not surprisingly. Comparative listening is one of the joys of classical music exploration. If a chosen work has very few recordings available, then this opportunity is diminished. To mitigate this and encourage exploration of lesser known works, I was wondering if there could be *the option to instead choose two lesser known works* to listen and discuss during the week, perhaps but not necessarily with some sort of reason informing the choices.
> 
> For example two works influenced by a previous composer. Or from a particular region. Or by a particular performer. Or using particular techniques that might be rewarding and fun to explore.
> 
> The only restriction would be that there are relatively few recordings available for each of the two. So one would never choose a Beethoven quartet and a Bartok quartet for example. Perhaps no more than three or four commercially available recordings for each would be the limit. Not a firm limit of course. In other words just judgement and common sense.
> 
> What does everyone think? I could try that this week or we could discuss further and stick to the original plan for this week. Of course maybe this is a bad idea, as this is a really great thread, so no reason to fix what is not broken. Thanks for considering. Thoughts?


Sounds like a splendid idea. No argument from me! Choose whatever you think is best


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## sbmonty

Well if there are no objections, let's give it a try. I'll post a little early as I have some obligations later this afternoon and don't want to wait until Sunday given the time difference of my more easterly friends.

If fellow contributor's feel that this form of posting doesn't work well, then we can of course just agree that this is no longer an option. By the way Merl, I was actually thinking of the Debussy! Looks like you dodged one! 

Here are the two choices for this week. I've wanted to explore these Danish composers in more depth for a while now. Hopefully this will also stir some discussion in general with respect to both composers and their works. Both the Kontra Quartet and the Nightingale Quartet have recorded these. The latter is just beginning their complete survey. I own the Nightingale Langgaard cycle and the Kontra Holmboe cycle, which is new to me just this past month.

I am also intrigued by Holmboe's role models, Haydn and Bartok, and how they might influence his compositions.

I hope everyone enjoys. And thank you for the Haydn Op. 20 choice. Loved it and great commentary as usual.

The following notes I have copied from the Nightingale's outstanding accompanying booklets. I have attributed the authours:

*Rued Langgaard (1893-1952)
String Quartet No. 3 (1924)*

In 1924 the Copenhagen-based Breuning-Bache Quartet planned a concert of music by young Danish composers, and in this connection approached Langgaard to ask if he had a suitable work 'in storage'. The approach inspired him to supply a brand new quartet, which was composed and fair-copied within a single week and given its first performance the same month (September 1924). Once more the music critics were entirely uncomprehending, but among Langgaard's colleagues a certain interest could be detected, and this led to the printing of the quartet in 1931. Richard Hove's review of the publication in Dansk Musik Tidsskrift was to be one of the most positive mentions ever accorded a work by Langgaard. Hove speaks of "the divine spark", of "eruptions of a magical temperament" and of the work's "great internal power". The work demonstrates the most wildly experimental musical language to be found in Danish music before Carl Nielsen's Sixth Symphony (1925). Like Nielsen (in the Sixth) Langgaard ironizes over modern music, but at the same time furnishes a solid defence of it. Langgaard's characte- rizations, for example rapinoso (rapacious), artifizioso (artful) and schernevole (scoffing), suggest his attitude to the dissonant and aggressive in the idiom. The contrast to this is the chorale that begins the last movement, and which attempts to make itself felt in the middle of the movement amidst the maelstrom of modern music, and in the end carries off the victory. The melody was written for Ingemann's hymn "Den store mester kommer" (The Great Master Comes), and a few years ago it was added as a four-part piece to the official chorale book of the Danish national church.

by Bendt Viinholt Nielsen

*Vagn Holmboe (1909-1996)
String Quartet No. 3, Op. 48 (1949)*

Vagn Holmboe often worked in series, where a work immediately gave rise to a successor in the same genre This was also the case with the string quartets, which over the years turned up in sets of two, three or four at a time. The String Quartets Nos 1-3 were written within merely a year and a half. 'It was unusual,' Holmboe remembered; 'A quartet that usually takes three months to write took just under a month. The speed has nothing to do with the quality or nature of the music; it is merely a question of a sudden tidal wave coming in'.
Also in String Quartet No 3, the legacy of Bartók is found in the symmetrical form, in which five movements are centred around a slow middle movement, and from Holmboe's idol Haydn, whose densely woven treatment of motifs is heard throughout, perhaps most clearly in the quick second movement. And, like String Quartet No 1, this work begins with a drastic exposition of dissonant intervals that outline the piece. The two interval leaps, a major seventh and a minor ninth, form the framework of a great, tragic scene in Bartókian arch form and with rhythmical elements from the pompous French overture of the Baroque era
Placed symmetrically around the middle movement stand two quick movements, and the second movement dances on its way in a high pitch. The movement leads attacca into the central third movement, a chaconne. It is built on a long theme that begins as a 12-tone row but develops into a tonal theme. The theme is presented quietly by the viola and then wanders around between the four voices before the movement ends on a simple C major chord - an elegant rejection of the 12-tone principle, which Holmboe never embraced.
The fourth movement follows the symmetry and is therefore a quick intermezzo, this time very burlesque. Here, too, one meets the seventh and ninth signals of the introduction. The quartet is rounded off by the short, introvert fifth movement, which, as an epilogue, reflects the first movement and ends with a veiled quotation from the beginning of the work.

by Jens Cornelius


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## Merl

Great choices SBM. I was only discussing the sadly neglected Langgaard quartets with another TC member last week. I have the Nightingale cycle on the car USB at the moment.


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## HenryPenfold

I'm sorry for coming late to this discussion, and I'm sorry to be unenthusiastic about this development. 

I was really enjoying the concentrated focus on one string quartet, with the various recordings being a really interesting supporting discussion. It really worked for me. I think something will be lost with the 'dog of two heads' approach. 

Pity, because I've been a fan of both the Langgaard and Holmboe string quartets for a very long time and I really would have enjoyed one or the other.

Funny enough, the string quartet that I had in mind, should I get to choose, has only one recording!

P.S. When such erudite and passionate people take a contrary position to my own, I must conclude that I'm probably in the wrong!

P.P.S. Fabulous choices, sbmonty :tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, we can try the format just as an experiment this week and then assess everyone’s opinions of how it went. Worst case, it’s a one-time thing. But I think we ought to give sbmonty the benefit of the doubt and go with his pair of excellent-looking selections, from two composers whom I have vowed to explore this year.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *from two composers whom I have vowed to explore this year.*


I have decided, as part of my new year's resolution to 'listen to the music already in my collection', to dig out my Langgaard and Holmboe quartets and symphonies.

And the chamber symphonies are superb, too.


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## Josquin13

Good idea, sbmonty. I enjoy comparative listening.

What a coincidence, I almost bought the Nightingale Quartet's new Holmboe recording the other day (& the good news is that it's the start of a brand new Holmboe SQ cycle--only the second ever!). Unfortunately, it'll arrive too late if I order it now, at least for our purposes in the coming week. So, that leaves the Kontra Quartet recording, which I own, & the Koppel Quartet, which is an oldie, recorded in 1954. Both are on You Tube:

--Kontra Quartet:
1- 



2- 



3- 



4- 



5- 




--Koppel Quartet: 




--EDIT: I now see that the Nightingale's new recording is on You Tube, as well: 




I've heard that the Nightingale's Holmboe interpretations are quite different from the Kontra's, & am looking forward to hearing them (EDIT: on first impression, they sound less edgy than the Kontras). Holmboe is one of my favorite modern Scandinavian composers. In fact, I own a signed letter by him where he mentions his Symphony no. 8 or "Sinfonia Boreale", along with a signed musical quotation that looks like it was done yesterday, and I never miss a chance to brag about it! (even though based on what I paid for them they're not worth much, at least, not at the moment, hopefully that will change one day...)

Nor have I yet to buy the Nightingale's Langgaard cycle, either, but have it on my 'to buy' list. I hope their recording of the 3rd Quartet is on You Tube...? If not, fortunately, I see the Kontra's Langgaard is on YT:

Kontra Quartet: 




EDIT: The Nightingale's recording of Langgaard's 3rd SQ is on You Tube, as well: 



 .

I'm looking forward to getting to know this work, and re-listening to the Holmboe quartet.

As for the Haydn quartet this past week, despite being an avid period enthusiast, I ended up listening to a very rare, live concert recording by the Curtis Quartet performing at the Free Library in Philadelphia in 1958, and enjoyed it very much. The performance offers refreshing proof that not all of the 'historic' quartets resorted to lots of swooping into notes. Rather, I thought the playing was refined & deeply musical. As for Haydn's quartet, it's a very great quartet--one of unquestionable genius. Thanks for the pick!






P.S. I too had trouble with the Festhetics Quartet when I first started listening to their Haydn (& Mozart), years ago. Their approach to Haydn is rougher sounding & earthier, perhaps more rooted in Haydn's Hungarian past & love of folk music. Not quite gypsy-like, but more in that direction. Yet, strangely, they're deceptively virtuosic as well--if that makes any sense, but not refined in the way that the Schuppanzigh or Apponyi Quartets are in Haydn. I'd say the Festhetics are more the 'Vegh Quartet' of period groups, but play with a better ensemble than the Veghs (who can get very rough at times). Anyway, I've grown to like their Haydn. Despite that, in a fire, I'd probably grab my Schuppanzigh, Kuijken, & Apponyi Haydn recordings first, then, if there were time, the Festetics, Mosaiques, Casals, & Chiaroscuro's (among my other favorite period Haydn SQ recordings).

EDIT: HenryPenfold, I don't see any reason why you have to listen to both quartets. Why don't you just pick the one that you're most inclined to explore at the moment. I'm sure no one will mind. I certainly won't.


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## HenryPenfold

Josquin13 said:


> EDIT: HenryPenfold, I don't see any reason why you have to listen to both quartets. Why don't you just pick the one that you're most inclined to explore at the moment. I'm sure no one will mind. I certainly won't.


I can't help feeling that it dilutes whichever work one listens to. The strength of the thread, for me, is the immersion into a single work. I love the concentration and focus. I really felt I got to know the Haydn Op.20 and the Schoenberg so well over the last two weeks.


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## SearsPoncho

I guess this is one the Auryn Quartet can't win. I haven't see any recordings of sb's two quartets by that distinguished ensemble. 

By the way, I've read more than my fair share of Gramophone and Penguin Guide reviews over the decades, and I would definitely buy a Merl's Guide to String Quartet Recordings book. Merl, you should try to get published. 

Anyhow, on to two new quartets as the week begins...


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## annaw

HenryPenfold said:


> I can't help feeling that it dilutes whichever work one listens to. The strength of the thread, for me, is the immersion into a single work. I love the concentration and focus. I really felt I got to know the Haydn Op.20 and the Schoenberg so well over the last two weeks.


But it doesn't *have* to dilute the works . Instead of comparing different recordings, one is able to compare the works themselves, which can be very insightful.

The problem with choosing one less-known work is that often the discussion simply dies off by the middle of the week when everyone has listened to it a few times and said what they think of it. Of course there have been exceptions (I recall that Mandryka's Dutilleux initiated quite a lot of interesting discussion), but that seems to be the general trend. I think that being able to pick two works might just keep the discussion alive for longer, because there are more things to discuss. I also think that it encourages people to choose less-known works as they won't be afraid that they will just kill the thread for half a week.

By the way, great picks sbmonty!! Never too many Danish quartets.


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## Merl

BTW, there's also a live recording of Langgaard's 3rd Quartet by the Miro Quartet. It's on Bridge records (and also Spotify)
If you're not feeling the Kontra or Nightingale recordings try that one.


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## Bwv 1080

For me, the two quartets would work if the composer were familiar and works similar, in this case the only real commonality is nationality and am not familiar with either composer, so it seems pretty random.

This thread has been good in getting me to listen to alot of music I otherwise would not pay attention to (my issue, not the music's) Particularly with SQs, I tend to barbell Haydn - Schumann on one hand and Reger - Schoenberg - Bartok - Carter - Ferneyhough on the other and ignore everything in between

But liked both works, the Langgaard was less late Romantic than the descriptions I read with some Bartokian sounding passages intermixed with the more traditional chord progressions, although the opening could almost have been Brahms. The contrasts in the final movement were less effective, thought the tranquillo sections really nice, but the Scherzo parts seemed more contrived

If the criticism of Schoenberg and later Serial music is that it 'does not go anywhere' and is just a series of nice (or not so nice) sounds, my problem with the more or less tonal mid 20th century music is that its 'going everywhere without ever getting anywhere' Contemporary tonal composers like Bartok and Shostakovich avoided this problem by having both moments of massive drama and killer licks

Anyway, listening to the Holboe now and will write something later on it.


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## ELbowe

I have never heard of either composer which is why I like this thread so much, it forces me out of my comfort zone.....well.... how much Ravel and Dufay can one listen to ???I found examples of both works on-line and played each work just once. Both works are complex and dense (not in the pejorative sense) and each movement appears, to my untrained ear, so different that it appears there are multiple works within the two. Anyhow, I look forward to listening more. I read bios on both composers; most interesting individuals. Thanks!


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## starthrower

I've heard of both composers but I've listened only to Holmboe's chamber symphonies CD on De Capo which I recommend without reservation. I will make time this week to listen to the featured quartets.


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## Merl

As I acknowledged last year, I've neglected the Holmboe SQs for far too long. Although I have most of the Kontra set I've always given them little listening time so this is an opportunity to get stuck in. As for Langgaard, I'm far more familiar with the symphonies but got the Nightingale SQ set fairly recently. Fortunately the ones I've played the most are the earlier ones. Langgaard is often ridoculously labelled as "a bit of a nutter" but this simplistic description is really quite lazy and pathetic and tells you little about music that can be innovative, challenging, beautiful and eclectic. I'm looking forward to diving into the Holmboe, in particular, this week.


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## Merl

I just thought it needed mentioning but sadly TC moderator and occasional poster in this thread, TurnaboutVox, has passed away. There's a thread over in the community section for those that would like to pay their respects.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> BTW, there's also a live recording of Langgaard's 3rd Quartet by the Miro Quartet. It's on Bridge records (and also Spotify)
> If you're not feeling the Kontra or Nightingale recordings try that one.
> 
> View attachment 149535


Great to see this on the Bridge label. I found this quartet to be immediately attractive and likeable. Pure ear candy! I love the energy, the sliding runs, and the prominence of the lower register in the robust cello parts. The piece has both a modern and traditional feel and reminded me of Bartok in some places.

Here it is:


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## Merl

Langgaard's music can be very hit and miss and some of the quartets are harder to enjoy than others (some go nowhere fast) however I like this particular piece. I think the word 'turbulent' would be a fitting adjective for the 3rd quartet. The Miro recording on Bridge is particularly rewarding, as ST mentioned. They give it a bit more umph than the Nightingales but there's little in it.


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## ELbowe

*What a difference a day makes!! I started with Rued Langgaard's String Quartet No. 3 BVN 183 (1924) listening to the Nightingale String Quartet and Kontra Quartet. First two spins did nothing for me and I thought "this is going to be a long week!" This morning I played them both again and wonder of wonders "the penny dropped!". All of a sudden there appeared cohesion in the movements and the III. movement Tranquillo especially … blew me away. The Third movement I thought adventurous in its tempos, whimsical and instrumentation (soaring violin and cello about the 3:30 (Kontra version) with brief but beautiful passages especially final minutes. It tied a nice ribbon on the piece overall. I was surprised at what appeared to be the suddenness of my new-found "hearing". I have just these two versions and that may be the reason where focus can be sharpened a bit more than last week with twelve or fourteen different editions to go through. 
I have to play Vagn Holmboe's String Quartet No. 3, Op. 48 (1949) a bit more as the connection is yet to be made.
Reading that Mr Langgaard was a church organist most of his life causes me to wonder where he received his avant-garde leanings. *


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## SearsPoncho

I heard the Langgaard 3rd quartet and, after hearing it again (it's necessary!), had a somewhat similar reaction to ELbowe.

These were my thoughts after the first go-around:
1) What the heck was that?
2) Nearly every epoch of western classical music (to that point) was referenced at one point or another.
3) That was extremely schizophrenic or ADHD. Very hard to follow. What's the point?
4) It's just constantly changing episodes and...
5) It's interesting. It was worth hearing. I'll return to it, but I don't know if I'll be all that excited to do so.

I listened to it again. My thoughts:
1) I kind of like this dude.
2) It's not hard to follow. 
3) It has a quirkiness and unpredictability which is somewhat reminiscent of Poulenc, although the music and style is quite different.
4) It sounds like a synthesis of two of my favorite string quartet composers: Bartok and Janacek. Especially Bartok. I believe the careers of all three composers overlapped, however, I don't know if Langgaard was aware of the other composers or their chamber music. I'm not even sure if such a thing would have been possible.
5) It requires multiple listening sessions. There's no way to catch all of that in just one performance. In fact, I have to listen to it again to get a better grip on what's going on.
6) It is very difficult to summarize this music and wrap it up with a nice bow. 
7) I have to hear it again!
8) Do I like it? I'm not sure. I'm not sure that's even relevant...
9) What is good music? Through the decades I've struggled to find a clear, one sentence definition of "good music." Almost every definition I could come up with would have excluded aleotory music and some of the more outlandish stunts (I'm trying to be as diplomatic as possible) of the post-WWII avant-garde. Then I came up with this, which would cover everything:

Good music is music that is worth hearing. 

Well, this was worth hearing. I'm not sure if I'll listen to it much more after this week, and I seriously doubt I will ever put it in the same category or tier as the great quartets of Haydn, Beethoven, Bartok, Shostakovich, etc....but it was worth hearing and I'm going to hear it again. Soon. Tonight.


One last thought: My old piano teacher, who was also a composer, once told me that everyone thinks a piano sonata should sound like the "Pathetique." I've always kept that in mind when hearing new music. One should not expect new works to fit into the same mold as the old. As I previously said, I accept every "new" composer or piece on its own terms. I did enjoy what this composer was doing. It's a wild ride!


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## starthrower

SearsPoncho, your final comment hits the nail on the head. It's a fun and wild ride of a crazy quartet. While I was listening to the piece I had visions of a six year old kid dashing around the playground from the slide to the jungle gym until he ran out of gas.


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## sbmonty

I chose these two composers for a few reasons. Primarily to explore each of them in more depth. As well as both being Danish, they were somewhat contemporaneous, though I don't know if they crossed paths and they both seemed to be influenced by both classical/early romantic styles and a more modern dissonant style. In particular, I was intrigued by Holmboe idolizing both Haydn and Bartok. 

The Langgaard quartet is short but engaging. To my ear, seems to be a battle between a classical style and more dissonant modern approach, often with the cello reprimanding the group for playing in such a passé method. I hear this in all 3 movements, but particularly in the short scherzo with the instruction to play artifizioco, which I take to mean with a particular affectation, which the cello does not appreciate at all! 

I also hear the passages at the beginning and end of the 3rd movement to be a variation of the US national anthem! Probably that's just my ears! Not sure if anyone else hears that. 

Thanks for the comments.


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## starthrower

sbmonty said:


> The Langgaard quartet is short but engaging. To my ear, seems to be a battle between a classical style and more dissonant modern approach, often with the cello reprimanding the group for playing in such a passé method. I hear this in all 3 movements, but particularly in the short scherzo with the instruction to play artifizioco, which I take to mean with a particular affectation, which the cello does not appreciate at all!


That middle movement has a great ending. The cello is saying tea time is over. Enough of this polite conversation! I need to check Spotify for a good sounding version of the Holmboe quartet. The two I listened to on YT sounded very thin and unattractive.


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## ELbowe

What has happened to "Current Listening" Classical thread.......? Closed for some reason.


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## starthrower

ELbowe said:


> What has happened to "Current Listening" Classical thread.......? Closed for some reason.


There's a new thread. Current Listening Vol VII.


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## Merl

Listening again I agree with ST about Holmboe. I'm going to give the new Nightingale version a go as the Kontra are thin and sound very undernourished which is why I've probably not returned to their Holmboe discs. Compare that to the stellar recording of the Langgaard 3rd with the aforementioned Nightingales and you'll hear the difference. I love the Langgaard 3rd. It's a marvellous piece and is getting way more airtime than the Holmboe. Btw, it's a cracking cycle of Langgaard SQs by the Nightingales. If you get a chance check out my fave of the cycle (the 6th quartet) a single movement tour de force. I'm swaying from the Miro recording to the Nightingale for the 3rd quartet, btw. That recording is simply outstanding. You've gotta love that 3rd movement and it's mood swings.


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## ELbowe

Thank you very much!


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## Helgi

I've been listening to and enjoying Langgaard No. 3, the Nightingale recording. Interesting stuff to say the least, and growing on me with every listen.

Also snuck in a listen of No. 6 (!) ...

Holmboe I will save for later.


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## Merl

I'm not feeling any love for the Holmboe at the moment. It's like a poor Bartok for me. Maybe I'll feel differently with a different recording. I need to check out his other SQs too. Those Holmboe cds have sat in my cd racks for 2 years gathering dust.. Perhaps there's a reason for that. I've not given up yet.


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## Knorf

Hey gang, sorry to have been, er, a bit absent lately and for getting way behind on this thread. Every selection has been great, sorry I missed out on the conversations.

Schoenberg 4 is a superb string quartet, my second favorite of his five, and what's always struck me about it is how _Brahmsian_ it is. I saw Merl called it "Late Beethovenian" and I agree with that, too. Great piece.

As for recordings, my favorite quartet for Schoenberg in general is the Pražák Quartet. Their performance of this repertoire is to die for. I didn't see anyone mention them... but lots of great recordings were mentioned, so that's fine. Two of the common suggestions, Juilliard and Arditti, are for me too harsh in this piece. They miss out on the Brahmsianness. YMMV

I second (or third or fifth or whatever) the Auryn for Haydn Op. 20, No. 5. The Auryns are just awesome. I actually haven't heard their Schoenberg, but I'm hardly surprised to hear that it's excellent.

The Langaard is new to me. I'll try to catch up on that.

What else did I miss?


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## Allegro Con Brio

So far this week I've spent a bit more time on the Langgaard than the Holmboe, the latter which I'm having a difficult time connecting with. But the former is really piquing my interest. The obvious clash between traditional and modernistic compositional styles makes the work almost a meta-commentary on the state of music in Europe at that time. You certainly can't accuse Langgaard of being predictable! Take that central scherzo, for instance - a minute and a half of uproarious edge-of-seat direction changes. I don't find it hard to believe that this composer remains well outside of the mainstream for most - he was a true eccentric with a huge composition ouevre, and his style is often so "out of the box" that it's difficult to know whether he wanted us to take his music seriously. Here's just a sampling of his works: an opera called _Antichrist_, a piece for huge double orchestra called _The Music of the Spheres_, and descriptive titles that include _Daddies rushing off the office_, _Deluge of sun_, and _Behold the master cometh_. I mean, the guy rivals Erik Satie for sardonic humor in music! This is music that I want to dip into at infrequent intervals - I don't know how much of it I could take at once - but I would like to listen to all the symphonies and quartets eventually. The dude is just too unique to ignore! What an inspired choice, sbmonty.

With both this week's quartets I much prefer the Nightingale to the Kontra, who I just have not been very impressed by every time I've heard them. While their BIS recordings have an unpleasantly bright sound quality, these recordings on the Marco Polo label sound far too soft and recessed, and their playing never sounds attractive to my ears. The Nightingale are recorded superbly and they play with great spontaneity and panache that communicates the sheer quirkiness of the Langgaard in just the way it needs to be. Too bad that their album cover looks like something from a bad Stephen King novel (maybe it's supposed to portray the surrealism of the music):










Oh, and Langgaard looks exactly like his music sounds: Like a mad genius.


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## starthrower

I might have to pick up their CD. But I'd probably just get the the 3 disc set of all the quartets.


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## Merl

ACB, whilst it's true that the Kontras have a rugged style that not everyone appreciates (in most SQ repertoire, let's not generalise) I don't think they've been served well sound-wise. Their set of Nielsen SQs is a perfect example of them being given dodgy sound. I loved their playing in those performances but they were recorded far too brightly, a problem on many of their recordings.

For the Langgaard, I totally agree that the Nightingales really get to the heart of this music and are recorded in such a fantastic acoustic that they would be tough to beat even with greater competition, here. I do have and love that Nightingale set and would urge you to buy it if you find Langgaard's particular soundworld appealing. No point for a long review this week. For me the *Nightingales are THE recording*. No competition. The reviews don't lie in this case.


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## sbmonty

Merl said:


> Listening again I agree with ST about Holmboe. I'm going to give the new Nightingale version a go as the Kontra are thin and sound very undernourished which is why I've probably not returned to their Holmboe discs. Compare that to the stellar recording of the Langgaard 3rd with the aforementioned Nightingales and you'll hear the difference. I love the Langgaard 3rd. It's a marvellous piece and is getting way more airtime than the Holmboe. Btw, it's a cracking cycle of Langgaard SQs by the Nightingales. If you get a chance check out my fave of the cycle (the 6th quartet) a single movement tour de force. I'm swaying from the Miro recording to the Nightingale for the 3rd quartet, btw. That recording is simply outstanding. You've gotta love that 3rd movement and it's mood swings.


I listened to the Langgaard No. 6 yesterday. It is a really interesting single movement composition. I enjoyed it thoroughly. Listening to No. 1 right now. The third movement is really quite haunting.


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## sbmonty

Knorf said:


> Hey gang, sorry to have been, er, a bit absent lately and for getting way behind on this thread. Every selection has been great, sorry I missed out on the conversations.
> 
> Schoenberg 4 is a superb string quartet, my second favorite of his five, and what's always struck me about it is how _Brahmsian_ it is. I saw Merl called it "Late Beethovenian" and I agree with that, too. Great piece.
> 
> As for recordings, my favorite quartet for Schoenberg in general is the Pražák Quartet. Their performance of this repertoire is to die for. I didn't see anyone mention them... but lots of great recordings were mentioned, so that's fine. Two of the common suggestions, Juilliard and Arditti, are for me too harsh in this piece. They miss out on the Brahmsianness. YMMV
> 
> I second (or third or fifth or whatever) the Auryn for Haydn Op. 20, No. 5. The Auryns are just awesome. I actually haven't heard their Schoenberg, but I'm hardly surprised to hear that it's excellent.
> 
> The Langaard is new to me. I'll try to catch up on that.
> 
> What else did I miss?


Happy to see you're back! Holmboe No. 3 is also up for listening and discussion. It seems the tougher nut to crack.


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## starthrower

I happen to think the Holmboe No.3 is a fine quartet and the better recorded Nightingale's certainly make the listening experience more enjoyable. There is an abundance of high pitches in the melody and contrapuntal lines so a thin recording can certainly get on one's nerves, especially when the cello lays out. But I feel like the whole piece has a strong continuity and melodic narrative with plenty of lyrical playing. I'm sure this music will sound much better on my main stereo compared to my little computer speakers.


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## Merl

I really cannot get into the Holmboe 3rd at all. I've tried about 5 times but it's just doing nothing for me. Some of the other Holmboes are fine but not this one. It just seems to go nowhere. I officially give up. Lol


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## starthrower

Merl, have you been watching Khatia Buniatishvili videos with the volume off while fruitlessly trying to get in to the Holmboe 3 quartet? I just gave it another listen and despite its lighter feel and energetic mood, the fourth movement is the only part I don't really care for too much. It sounded like a poor man's Bartok. I'm more drawn to the gloomier melancholy and dissonant melodies of the other movements that sound more original and interesting to my ear. As well as the reprieve of the brief scherzo. Does it go anywhere? I don't know? Does it need to? Not for me. I'll try some others.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Merl, have you been watching Khatia Buniatishvili videos with the volume off.... .


Mmmm, Khatia. :kiss:


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> Mmmm, Khatia. :kiss:


Hey, I've watched a bunch of her videos too! I gotta give old Zubin credit for staying focused on the music! And she does play pretty damn good!


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## Merl

I find the Holmboe weird because it's not a soundworld that turns me off, usually. If I can like Ives SQ2 then this is tame stuff but it's nowt to do with the style of the SQ, I'm just struggling with the content. I just don't feel it. As I said, I've played it about 5 times and I can't remember a single moment from it. I find that really odd. I listened to Holmboe's 4th and thought that was fine but that 3rd just doesn't register. I don't find it unpleasant at all just 'neutral'. I'm glad you and others are enjoying it though, ST. I'm off to watch more Khatia B and Alondra de la Parra videos before Mrs Merl gets home from work. :lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Just in case you need a reminder, Merl, it’s your turn this week


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Just in case you need a reminder, Merl, it's your turn this week


Nps. I'm sorted. When do you want me to post it, ACB? It'll be one piece that some will know and one I know VERY well. Not too many recordings either (sub-30).


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## ELbowe

Just listened to Vagn Holmboe’s String Quartet No. 3 op. 48 M. 165 (The Kontra Quartet) one more time to see if there is the hoped for connection… it is interesting and the recording and group sound fine ..but alas it didn’t happen. As mentioned earlier in the week I thoroughly enjoyed Rued Langgaard’s String Quartet No. 3 and have not only put The Nightingale Set on my wish list but I look forward to exploring more of his works. Another interesting week…thank you!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Nps. I'm sorted. When do you want me to post it, ACB? It'll be one piece that some will know and one I know VERY well. Not too many recordings either (sub-30).


Maybe tomorrow morning? But as always, it's totally up to you!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Maybe tomorrow morning? But as always, it's totally up to you!


OK, I'll post it some time tomorrow, comrades!


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## HenryPenfold

I've been enjoying the Langgaard third string quartet very much this week. I bought the Kontra set quite a few years ago now (along with their Holmboe traversal). I have, thanks to streaming via Qobuz/Audirvana, been taking in the Nightingale Quartet, too.

The latter are superb and beautifully recorded, but I prefer the Kontra's performance (I know people will think that's absurd!). It may well be because I've become familiar with these recordings for about ten years, but I also think it's because I like this music presented less opulently. I prefer listening to Langgaard with a hair shirt! For me, their leaner sound, quicker pace and edgier presentation is preferable. But don't forget, I love the sound of the Festetics in Haydn. This quartet will stay on my playlist for some time to come, methinks.

Regarding the Holmboe, I got distracted onto the later quartets. I think that with Holmboe, the later symphonies and quartets are superior.


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## starthrower

This thread has inspired me to get more into string quartet listening. There's so much other music to listen to and I've neglected several quartet boxes in my collection. I'll check out some of Holmboe's later quartets, and Langgaard as well. I'm also listening to Bacewicz, Beethoven, and I need to revisit Britten's quartets. I have a Hindemith box that's been sitting idle as well.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> This thread has inspired me to get more into string quartet listening. There's so much other music to listen to and I've neglected several quartet boxes in my collection. I'll check out some of Holmboe's later quartets, and Langgaard as well. I'm also listening to Bacewicz, Beethoven, and I need to revisit Britten's quartets. I have a Hindemith box that's been sitting idle as well.


It's also moved string quartets a little closer to my listening centre of gravity. The Bacewicz were a real discovery and although I bought the Silesian on Chandos, I stream the Lutoslawski on Naxos. Despite some negative opinions here and there, I can hear nothing wrong with them. In fact they are very good performances, IMVHO.

Coincidentally, I've a set of Hindemith that I must catch up with too! Britten's are regular on my turntable (well no. 2 is).


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## starthrower

Yeah, the Lutoslawski quartet sounds good to me. I was amazed how much Bacewicz music is on Spotify so I want to listen to her other chamber music. I don't have the Zimerman disc with her quintets and piano sonata. I have the Britten quartets on Brilliant Classics but I'll have to search around to find it as I've got over a thousand CDs packed away.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> Yeah, the Lutoslawski quartet sounds good to me. I was amazed how much Bacewicz music is on Spotify so I want to listen to her other chamber music. I don't have the Zimerman disc with her quintets and piano sonata. I have the Britten quartets on Brilliant Classics but I'll have to search around to find it as I've got over a thousand CDs packed away.


I'd strongly recommend the Zimerman piano quintets disc


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> I'd strongly recommend the Zimerman piano quintets disc


I haven't heard anything by her I don't like. I've got one of the violin concerto discs and the chamber disc on Chandos, and one orchestral CD.


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## Malx

I've been distracted listening to other things over the last few weeks so will keep my comments brief. 
I've listened with interest to the Schoenberg Quartet No 4 as I had no recordings of it in my collection, I ended up buying the LaSalle box with Berg, Webern and Zemlinsky as the price was too good to resist. The Haydn Op 20 I didn't get past the one recording I have on the shelves - Mosaiques, I've always thought of their recording as comfortable and friendly without being too cuddly. 
The Holmboe and Langgaard quartets again I have one recording of each - Kontra for the Holmboe and the Nightingales for Langgaard. The Holmboe is probably not one of his strongest quartets but I seem to like it more than most on the thread, I guess for me it is more about the sound scape rather than structure and development. The Langgaard is concise but within the short timespan he seems to throw a lot of ideas around, I need to get to know it better. Added to the growing list of 'listen to again soon' discs.


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## Merl

For this week's SQ I juggled with a few favourites but settled on a quartet that I have multiple recordings of, *Prokofiev's 2nd String Quartet*. 
From elsewhere on the net I found this summary, which I thought was very good.

"Based, like Myaskovsky's 23rd Symphony, on ideologically vetted Kabardinian folk materials, Prokofiev's String Quartet No. 2 (sometimes referred to as "The Karbardinian Quartet") is one of the most immediately attractive quartets in the repertoire. It dates from 1941 when the two men were evacuated to the relative stability of the Caucasus and points east (that Prokofiev's young companion Mira Mendelson was in tow might explain the jollity of the outer movements although their music can be tough as well as witty) In the wondrous Adagio the cello line rises high, ghostly melodic statements in octaves can expose the smallest tuning difficulties and pizzicati needs must sparkle like ice. The aggressive principal theme of the first movement originates in a Kalbardian folk song. Its unrelenting intensity prevails until the three lower voices start a repeated two-note back and forth figure over which the first violin intones an expressive dance tune. The concluding, more lyrical theme of the exposition lightens the mood somewhat before the harshly brilliant development section takes over. A shortened recapitulation ends the movement. After a few introductory measures, the cello is entrusted with the Adagio's serene and beautiful opening melody which is taken from another Kalbardian song. The Oriental character of the area's folk music is evoked in the middle section as Prokofiev successfully imitates a Caucasian stringed instrument, the kjamantchi. Unique tonal effects in this movement include the viola playing a tremolo pontichello. The movement is brought to a close with a brief return to the opening theme. "Getigezhev Ogurbi", a vigorous mountain dance, is the basis for the opening of the allegro. The viola and cello start a fast, agitated passage that becomes the accompaniment to a restlessly lyrical violin melody. A reminder of the opening is followed by a slightly slower, more relaxed episode before the tempo picks up again in a variation of the initial theme. A cadenza for the cello leads to an agitated development section, after which there is a return, but in reverse order, of the previous tunes."

Here's the Emerson recording from YouTube, as an example .... 





Recordings (I know of)

Chilingirian
Rusquartet
Sequoia
Prague
Novak
Pavel Haas
Borodin
Aurora
Hollywood
Energie Nove
Coull
Britten
Russian
Pacifica
Calidore
Edinburgh
Kopelman
Szymanowski
St. Petersburg
Emerson
Italiano
Ruysdael
American
Loewenguth
Endres
Carmirelli


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## HenryPenfold

Great choice! And yes, that description you found online is really good (maybe we should do that for each chosen string quartet from now on).

Prokofiev is a neglected composer in my case, having not so many CDs of his music of any kind - unusual for any collector to have a small selection of such an important musical figure.

I have 2 recordings of quartet #2 - the Pavel Haas Quartet and the Pacifica Quartet (I will say that the Pacifica are a favourite of mine, whoever the composer).

Currently listening to the Pavel Haas, by way of a warm up for the week ahead.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Fantastic choice! In fact I have recently been listening to quite a bit of Prokofiev - he’s one of my favorites - and noticing that I haven’t really explored his chamber music at all (outside of the quite lovely cello sonata) because I’ve somehow received the stereotype that it’s not of the same caliber as his orchestral and piano music and concerti. It seems as if one hardly hears about his quartets in particular compared to contemporaries like Shostakovich and Bartok. This week shall be a wonderful remedy for that.


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> It seems as if one hardly hears about his quartets in particular compared to contemporaries like Shostakovich and Bartok. This week shall be a wonderful remedy for that.


I might have missed some discussion here over the years but I've never seen his quartets mentioned, and I haven't listened to them. I'm a fan of his 2nd piano concerto, and I heard his cello sonata performed live in 2016. But that's the only chamber piece I've heard. I don't know where to start with that huge list of Merl's so I'll just pick something and listen.


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## Merl

Ive just relistened to 2 of the recordings I have (Emersons and Pavel Haas). The *Pavel Haas* is a terrific recording of great class. They play the final movement brilliantly (listen those stunning pizzicatos and double stops) and are recorded in a great acoustic that gives this recording a wonderful depth and warmth. Turning elsewhere, I doubt anyone plays the slow movement as beautufully as the *Emersons*. Their slightly wirier tone really suits the music and they really do give an impressive account here. I would say that these are 2 of my usual go-to recordings (amongst others) of this quartet but im not going to let that colour my thoughts and await to be thrilled by other quartets here. I also listened to the *Coull* quartet on Spotify and whilst they are more romantic in their aporoach this is indeed a fine performance and possibly one of the best i've heard from this particular quartet. A nice start to the week.


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## starthrower

Wow! I like this one a lot! The energy and vitality of the dance like folk themes is on brilliant display in this beautifully composed quartet. Prokofiev is one of those composers whose music can satisfy both traditional and modern music listeners alike. This quartet is an instant classic to my ears. I listened to it several times just to make sure the excitement didn't fade after the initial run through. This one's a keeper! The Borodins, and Pavel Haas have a rich, full bodied sound. The sound of the Pacifica, and Emerson quartet recordings is a bit leaner. I just looked at my other tab and I see Merl has already mentioned this. BTW, there's a nice 6 CD Russian Quartet set by the Borodin's on the Alto label. Actually, it features the Borodin's and two other quartets.


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## Knorf

I love the Prokofiev string quartets! Great choice. 

All of Prokofiev's chamber music is worth hearing, in my opinion. Especially notable is the Quintet in G minor, Op. 39, for oboe, clarinet, violin, viola and double bass, which I think is a masterpiece. Very nearly equally good are the Overture on Hebrew Themes (for clarinet, string quartet and piano), Op. 34, and Sonata for Two Violins in C major, Op. 56.

But the absolutely essential listening in Prokofiev's chamber music is definitely the two great Sonatas, No. 1 for Violin & Piano in F minor, Op. 80, and No. 2 in in D major, Op. 94a, transcribed from the Flute Sonata in D major, Op. 94. And I frankly also very much like the Cello Sonata in C major, Op. 119.

Don't hesitate, especially not if you know you already are a fan of Prokofiev.


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## starthrower

There really isn't a comprehensive CD set of his chamber works that I've been able to find. Ever since I heard the cello sonata I've been meaning to pick up a CD. It's usually paired with the Rachmaninov. Now I definitely want a CD of the quartets.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> There really isn't a comprehensive CD set of his chamber works that I've been able to find. Ever since I heard the cello sonata I've been meaning to pick up a CD. It's usually paired with the Rachmaninov. Now I definitely want a CD of the quartets.


Ive just been listening to my *Aurora* quartet recording of both quartets on Naxos, Starthrower. Their recording of the 2nd quartet is really impressive and super cheap. I'd heartily recommend it (as did the Penguin Guide). Slightly resonant, it's a straight-down-the-line interpretation and has always been a favourite of mine. You'll be able to pick it up for a few bucks secondhand on ebay or Amazon, ST, and its well worth the outlay. It's coupled with a solid performance of the cello sonata, too. Another one I have is the *Calidore* quartet on their excellent 'Resilience' cd. This, again, is a fine performance and the couplings are just as impressive (if not even better). As I said at the beginning of my choice, there are many fine accounts of this quartet. Its hard to go wrong.


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## starthrower

I just noticed that Aurora CD earlier. That's a good pairing. The Calidore's are cool! I met them after a concert here about 5-6 years ago. Their cellist, Estelle Choi is the extroverted member of the group. She was very enthusiastic and a pleasure to speak with. It's good to see they are recording more CDs.


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## Josquin13

I totally agree that Prokofiev's two string quartets are underrated works, & otherwise, I can't listen to his Op. 94 Flute Sonata--which Prokofiev turned into his Violin Sonata No. 2, Op. 94a at David Oistrakh's request--without getting terrible 'ear worms'! It just one of those works that keeps coming back into my mind for days, even weeks afterwards. So, unfortunately, I can't listen to it very often. As for the best recordings (IMO), I like the David Oistrakh, Shlomo Mintz, & Dmitri Sitkovetsky recordings most for the violin sonatas, and Sharon Bezaly & Ronald Brautigam--on an audiophile BIS hybrid SACD, & Jean-Pierre Rampal--among older versions, for the Flute Sonata, Op. 94:

Bezaly: 



Rampal: 




Oistrakh/Yampolsky: 



Mintz/Bronfman: 



Sitkovetsky/Gililov: 




Ugh, I had planned on doing Prokofiev's 1st String Quartet for my next pick on this thread--as it's a favorite work of mine, so I guess I'll have to rethink that choice now. Although I suppose we could do both, but I'd imagine that most people here will likely listen to both Prokofiev SQs this week... I know I will. Oh well, my turn won't come up again for some time, so I have plenty of time to pick another (d-mn you, Merl)... The Pavel Haas Quartet is excellent in this repertory, I agree. I also like the 'authentic' sounding St. Petersburg Quartet in this music, & will occasionally listen to the Chilingirian and the Emerson Quartets, as well.

Here's a YT link to the St. Petersburg Quartet recording, since it's more 'off the radar' than the award winning Pavel Haas disc: 



.

As for the Langgaard & Holmboe Quartets, I'm afraid I wasn't entirely won over by either quartet--though I found parts of each to be quite imaginative. They are both sort of peculiar works, on the whole--very discursive music. Yet, as I said, there were sections in the Holmboe quartet particularly that I found to be very imaginative (though I agree it's probably not one of his best quartets). So, in the end, I just didn't think that either quartet worked that well as an overall conception. But I'm glad that I listened to them!

Like others, I enjoyed The Nightingale Quartet recordings, but also felt that they weren't quite in the same sound world, interpretatively, as the much earlier Koppel Quartet in 1954 (who I assume worked with Holmboe to give its premiere), though technically they're the more fluid and virtuosic quartet (& better recorded, too). I didn't get to the Kontra Quartet recording. Another time...


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Ugh, I had planned on doing Prokofiev's 1st String Quartet for my next pick on this thread--as it's a favorite work of mine, so I guess I'll have to rethink that choice now. Although I suppose we could do both, but I'd imagine that most people here will likely listen to both Prokofiev SQs this week... I know I will. Oh well, my turn won't come up again for some time, so I have plenty of time to pick another (d-mn you, Merl).


Haha, i nearly picked the 1st quartet, Jos, but i slightly prefer the 2nd. It was a toss up between this one and Kodaly 2. Prokofiev won out as its such a sadly neglected quartet and one of my faves. Kodaly 2 is also a bit short.


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## starthrower

Josquin13, as usual your threads provide a wealth of information and helpful links. I ended up buying a used copy of the St Petersburg Quartet CD. And I'm listening to the violin sonata links. I like the Mintz/Bronfman recording.


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## Knorf

The Mintz/Bronfman Prokofiev Sonatas album is essential for any Prokofiev fan. Those performances are sensational, and a great recording to boot!


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## Josquin13

Yes, obviously I agree with Knorf on the Mintz/Bronfman Prokofiev performances (& exceptional DG sound quality). They go with me to my desert island. Both musicians have been criticized in other repertory, occasionally, but I don't think you'll find a better pianist in these two sonatas than Bronfman, and Mintz likewise has a special affinity for Prokofiev's music. Btw, I also like Mintz's recording of the Prokofiev Violin Concertos 1 & 2 with Claudio Abbado & the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on DG (& Prokofiev was similarly one of Abbado's best composers): 



. For me, Prokofiev was at his most imaginative when composing for the violin (& piano). Of course, David Oistrakh is also essential listening in Prokofiev's violin works--despite the earlier sound quality. His playing is less lyrical than Mintz's, & has more tonal heft.

I'm pleased that you liked the St. Petersburg Quartet's recording. It's a bit of a sleeper. They also did a very good Shostakovich SQ cycle for Hyperion, but have a lot more competition there.


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## starthrower

I had one of their Shostakovich discs out of the library a few years back. I enjoyed it. I was tempted to buy both the St. Petersburg, and Aurora Prokofiev discs. I prefer the St Petersburg in No.1, and Aurora slightly in No.2.


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## Merl

Another 2 from my collection, this morning, courtesy of the Pacificas and the St Petersburg quartet. As Jos pointed out the *St. Petersburg* recording is a real sleeper. They play the 3rd movement, in particular, really rhythmically and very cleanly. It's a really interesting and beautifully recorded reading and you also get the Nadarejshvili SQ (which is super). The *Pacificas* are, as expected, tonally stunning and a top contender in this quartet and this reading comes bundled with the Shosty early SQs. Its a superb account, stunningly recorded and played gorgeously. Listen to the delicate interplay in the adagio for example, and you'll be wowed by their persuasive playing too. With such beautifully recorded accounts by the Pacificas and St Petersburg you'd think the *Endres* Quartet's mono 1959 performance on Vox would be uncompetitive but this recording has held up well over the years. It's not wiry or hissy and their clean, fresh and characterful account still sounds fine to me. There's a couple of moments of suspect intonation in the first movement but it only enhances the charm of this recording. Another very enjoyable performance. One I've known for years but never rated much is the *Britten* Quartet's rather sluggish and dry recording. I've never much cared for the violin tone in this one or the vision of the quartet as a whole and for me it's uncompetitive with so many superb accounts to go at. Similarly, the *Rusquartet* are technically proficient and do play the 3rd movement, especially, with plenty of character and some lovely touches but lose a lot of forward momentum in the process. It's a capable performance but not in the league of others.


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## Merl

Local quartet (well, local to me, they're based in Stirling) the *Edinburgh* quartet are very impressive in their survey of the Prokofiev quartet (taken from their impressive Postcard from Nalchik cd). There's lots of great detail here and it's not hard to hear why this performance got very good reviews on release. It's sweet-toned but gutsy and they get a nice balance of both. Perhaps it misses a little of the character of the very best recordings here but it's still a fine performance and easily recommendable. One I haven't got or had heard was the *Energie Nove *recording. I'd heard a lot of good things about this recording so I was eager to listen to it and I wasn't disappointed. It's one of the quickest (if not the quickest) readings out there, apart from in the adagio, and the quartet's slightly leaner tone and earthiness really suit this music. Ensemble is imaginative and consistently first rate. This is a superb recording. Speed doesn't diminish the playing, which is compelling, and the way they attack the final movement, whilst maintaining its folksy charm and occasional darkness, is truly mesmeric. I haven't got this one but I will be as it is a serious contender. Absolutely stellar sound, additionally, makes this a difficult one to ignore. Another sleeper here is the *Kopelman* quartet on Chandos who really bring out the Russian elements in the music. This is played with great conviction and they absolutely nail the 3rd movement. Chandos give them a lovely sound and I greatly enjoyed this splendidly played performance. Another big recommendation.

Edit: had to do some ironing before so I squeezed in the *Szymanowski* recording which I found rather dry, uninvolving and not competitive. The *American* Quartet's 80s recording (originally on Olympia) was much better and although the soundstage was again on the dry side they play with good conviction and style, if a bit too slowly for me. The *Carmirelli*'s 1960 London Records performance is decent enough but there's some odd balances and sloppy ensemble in the first movement but they definitely improve as the quartet goes on. With other better ones around its not wholly recommendable though.


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## Bwv 1080

Reading the Wikipedia article on the work, apparently SP was evacuated to Nalchik in the Caucuses (near Mt Erebus) after the German invasion and was told to write a SQ based on Kabardino-Balkar folk themes. The Karbardians and Balkars are a Turkish groups, found this looking for some examples of their music:


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## Helgi

My first impressions of this quartet are that it's very rich, musically, and that it manages to create an entire world in just a few bars of music which is quite remarkable. The first movement sounds like a development of something that came before, like there's a missing movement or two before it.

I started with the Emersons and then went to Pavel Haas — enjoy both but much prefer the sound of the Haas, and also they just seem to have a more vivid character.

:tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

I fell in love with this piece from the first minute or so. I’m a sucker for classical music with strong folk music undercurrents, as I think it is exemplary of the culture-spanning infuences that have fed the inexhaustible tradition of Western Art Music. I have to say that I wouldn’t have guessed this was Prokofiev if I didn’t know, but I would have anyone hear it who thinks that Prokofiev is all steely military marches and cold, empty virtuosity (which I thought for a while when I was first getting into CM from only knowing the piano sonatas and concerti). He was also playful, colorful, eclectic, and often sumptuously lyrical. Yeah, Merl, I can see why you chose this one, it’s got some kick-*** pizzicato sections:lol:

Happily enough, I found the Pavel Haas recording on my streaming (Supraphon and streaming usually don’t go together) and it’s downright perfect. They really tap into the great Czech tradition of performing chamber music and offer an improvisatory, superbly creative performance that just breathes the purity of all those folk tunes and rhythms. One Gramophone review of their Dvorak disc said that they play with a “spontaneous gentleness,” and I agree with that odd description. The outer movements are full of energy, but it’s not played with the kind of harsh attacks and aggressive dynamics that often turn me off. They tend and caress all the phrases so beautifully. It’s pure, radiant, youthful music-making.


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## StevehamNY

Just a quick note to say how much I've enjoyed following this forum! I've caught up through all 135 pages in the last few days, and I've learned so much and discovered several new SQ series. It's been such a great sanctuary from a world that's upside down, so I can't thank you all enough.

As someone whose actual music training ended in the fourth grade, I still bring a "beginner's mind" to the technical side of this discussion. But as someone who writes fiction for a living, I think I naturally relate to the "story" side of these quartets. I know that the composer's history is separate from the music itself (I see that this point has already been made in this forum more than once), but sometimes I can't help wondering about the circumstances under which this music was created. In the case of Prokofiev, whose piano music I probably love beyond reason, I can't help wondering why he only wrote two string quartets. 
Was it because everything started from the piano bench for him? Is it as simple as that?

It's interesting that Prokofiev wrote one quartet in American and then only one more after returning to the Soviet Union, and even this second quartet was more or a less an "assignment" given to him, as noted by Bwv 1080 above. I've read that, following the Zhdanov decree in 1948, the very form of a string quartet was considered a little too "Western" for the common good. It doesn't seem like a total coincidence that Shostakovich waited until Stalin died before writing the last 10 of his quartets. (Prokofiev, of course, didn't have that chance. Because he died the exact same day as Stalin, did you know that there was not one flower available anywhere in the city for his funeral?)

In the film "A Late Quartet" (recommended, if you haven't seen it), Daniel Lerner plays the lead violinist, and when he's explaining why he stayed in a quartet instead of choosing a different life as a soloist, says this about the composers who created the quartets that he's played:

"The greatest composers, when they wanted to express their most sincere thoughts, feelings... dig deep into their souls... always this form, always, always the quartet. If they were courageous enough."

Do you agree with this sentiment? When Martin Kettle interviewed the Proms director Nicholas Kenyon in 2006, he said: "Prokofiev so often seems to hide his musical character behind 'the mask of cleverly assumed style'... You sense when Shostakovich was trying to sound hollow, and when he explored real depths. With Prokofiev, that is not always so easy." 

Again, I absolutely love Prokofiev's music, and I will always love this quartet. But I don't think I've ever had the sense that he's fully wearing his heart on his sleeve, in this or any composition. (Maybe in the War Sonatas? Maybe?) If you listen to this quartet with the thought that maybe he was hiding himself to some degree when he wrote it, can you actually pick up on that idea in the music itself?

(Wow, okay, not where I thought this post would end up! But thank you again to everyone here! I'll keep following!)


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## Merl

I've got some more well thought of recordings to listen to tomorrow but I can't get to listen to the Hollywood Quartet's celebrated mono 1958 recording (a rosette winer in the Penguin Guide). I last heard it years ago and can't remember what it sounds like. If anyone finds a YouTube link then post it here. I haven't been able to find it. Without hearing it I feel like I'm not doing this SQ full service.


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## ELbowe

Oh Boy!! I was wondering if my adventure in SQ was coming to an abrupt end with this weeks selection? I listened to Pavel Haas Quartet (I have their recording of Dvorak String Quartets ….great!!) However I took an instant dislike to first movement found it irritating and harshly repititious to my ears, the subsequent movements didn't get me out of my dark mood. I decided to leave for a day, but today played again same reaction. Thought i'd try another recording but not feeling positive, considering it may be futile ...had I formed an instant dislike??
The Szymanowski Quartet suggested to my ears that I was listening to a completely different piece of music ! Their first movement was quieter calmer and put me in a different frame of mind. While I honestly cant say I really enjoy the piece (so far) I will listen to the other ten or so recordings I have on deck. Interesting to say the least!!


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## Merl

3 more today in the form of the Sequoia, Prague and Chilingirian recordings. The *Sequoia* recording was competent but had neither the tonal beauty or bite to worry the opposition. Not bad but not distinctive in any way. The *Chilingirian* Quartet were much better, playing sensitively and, like the Auroras, taking a straight down the line approach. A fine account but it narrowly didn't match the lively, convincing and thoroughly engaging *Prague* quartet who had a rhythmical snap that marked this performance out. Slightly more vibrato than others but when they attack they do so with great panache and an earthiness, in this more sinewy but precise recording. An excellent effort from the Eastern Europeans.


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## Merl

The last one I've been able to listen to (sorry I just couldn't get access to the celebrated Hollywood recording) is the *Borodin* Quartet. As lovely as their adagio is, the whole performance is rather slow and (dare I say it) boring. Rather than skip with joy the last movement feels like an arduous slog. Technically excellent but emotionally detached. I'll do a round-up either later or tomorrow, depending on what time City's game kicks off tonight.


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## SearsPoncho

I bought the Pavel Haas Quartet's cd of Prokofiev's String Quartets shortly after it was released. I've always enjoyed it and never felt the need to look elsewhere. They perform with gusto and the audio quality sounds excellent, in my non-expert opinion. I sampled a few others this week and was disappointed by much of what I heard. It's amazing how different performers can change one's opinion of a composition. I had to listen to the P.H. Qt's recording again to remind myself that this was good music. I believe they absolutely nail the mystical qualities of the 2nd movement.


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## Malx

I have now listened to four different recordings of the Prokofiev 2nd Quartet.
The *Pacifica* which I have in my collection as part of the Shostakovich quartets box set also the *Pavel Haas*, *Edinburgh*, and *Emersons* via Qobuz in lossless sound.

First comment - all of the recordings I tried were very decent in their own way.

The Emersons recording to my ears lacked a little warmth which was in my view a bit of a let down given the folk influences at play in the quartet. They without doubt play beautifully but suffer from sound that is a bit harsh imo, to be fair if I hadn't heard the other three before them I'm pretty certain I would have been happy with the disc.
The Edinburgh Quartet I tried largely because of their local name and it was there as an option - their performance was very good no better than the Emersons but the sound was more to my taste.
Pavel Haas and Pacifica quartets for me were both just a couple of degrees better than the others, they both seemed to get the mood and feeling just right. I'd be more than happy with either and indeed may add the Pavel Haas recording to my collection as their disc also has the 1st quartet which I don't currently have.
Really enjoyed this one.


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## Merl

Ok, so I have quite a few recordings of this one as its a particular favourite in SQs for me and apart from the Hollywood ive listened to and compared the available big-hitters and a number of the lesser know recordings. Here are my thoughts.

*Recommended*

Chilngirian - an excellent straight recording in very good sound.
St. Petersburg - I bought this a while back for the Nadarejshvilib SQ and it doesn't disappoint. It may not be the strongest of the recommended recordings but it occupies a soundworld that others dont. A highly individualistic account that some will love. 
Prague - lots of character and a bouyant final movement make this an easy recommendation.
Aurora - interpretively like the Chilingirians but with a little more bite. Another winner from the San Francisco players. A perfect library buy thats as cheap as chips on the secondhand market or online.
Calidore - If you havent got their excellent 'Resilience' cd then do yourself a favour. Theres not a bad recording on it. High quality, expressive playing in great sound.
Kopelman - one that came from nowhere. Lots of character in a pleasant acoustic.
Edinburgh - like the Calidores try out their 'Postcards from Nalchik' cd. Some very nice recordings here.
Emerson - I agree with Malx that the slightly harsher recorded sound might not impress some but the performance is vital and for those wanting edgier Prokfiev this could be for you. The 2nd movement is terrific.

*Hugely recommended (my top picks) *

Apologies but I just could not separate these as they all have things i love about them. On one day i preferred the Haas and another day the other two took top spot. What i will say is that these are all fantastic recordings and all deserve a special mention.

Pavel Haas








You wont hear a bad word about this one and the reviews were stellar and thats no surprise as its a brilliant disc. Both quartets get awesome performances in immaculate sound. I have this on the HD (and its currently on the car USB) and love it.

Pacifica








As the Pavel Haas this is a performance that just sounds right. Ensemble is amazing and the recording is just lovely. If you rate the Pacifica's Shosty SQ set (as highly as i do) you should definitely get this one. The ony drawback is its just the 2nd SQ. Otherwise its utterly superb.

Energie Nove








I knew of this recording and heard very good things but it's even better than i imagined. Its a brisk, lively, leaner performance thats full of character and joy and I'll defintely be trying to get hold of this (at least i can listen on Spotify for now). Others may prefer the slightly warmer approach of the Haas and Pacifica recordings but i think this one is a killer too and equally valid. Soundwise its transparent and beautifully caught.

We're really spoiled for choice in this quartet and I'd heartily recommend all those I've mentioned above as they all have their merits. Another week of intense listening has at least reaped the reward of a few new recordings I'd not heard before. Thanks for bearing with me and i hope youve all discovered either a new recording of this quartet or just this neglected quartet this week. To me its a great one. I hope you now feel the same.


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## HenryPenfold

I have been enjoying listening to this quartet this week. I think I have taken it for granted previously and not appreciated what a wonderful composition it is. I am not a huge fan of Prokofiev, or perhaps more accurately, I've never been 'hit between the eyes' with his music as I have with say, Bartok or DSCH.

Listening this week, I was struck with how well balanced the work is. At not much over 20 minutes it lends itself to concentrated, focused listening and fatigue can never set in. The three movements are of roughly equal length and the musical argument never outstays its welcome.

The first movement is a joyous but perfectly crafted opener, with a blend of folk tune, rhythm and a scintillating amalgam of splendid musical ideas and sources. The second movement is at once intense, charming and lyrical and added to that, the pizzicato and bowing requirements add a piquancy to the music that I'd not appreciated until this week's concentrated listen. The Finale takes all the positives of the previous two movements and rhythmically drives the almost pastoral elements of the music to a delightful conclusion.

I've limited my listening to the two CDs that I bought; Pavel Haas and Pacifica. The Haas was a deliberate purchase for the work under discussion and the Pacifica came with the thoroughly recommended DSCH box-set (also c/w Myaskovsy 13, Weinberg 6 and Schnittke 3).

I must say that I have a strong preference for the Haas performance. It manages to deliver the warmth and lyricism of the music whilst conceding nothing to the incisiveness of the musical language. The Pacifica to my ears is a slightly cooler and emotionally reticent performance (although I'd be perfectly happy with it, if it were my only recording).

*EDIT: *I've only just re-read Merl's edited post #2024 and it feels I've duplicated some of what he has said - apologies if that's a bit boring!!


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## Oldhoosierdude

I haven't read back 135 pages. So, not sure what the process is for each weeks quartet but I have got a lot of listening recently from quartets by Holmboe, Bacewicz, Bax, and Mendelssohn. And Prokofiev on Naxos with Aurora.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Oldhoosierdude said:


> I haven't read back 135 pages. So, not sure what the process is for each weeks quartet but I have got a lot of listening recently from quartets by Holmboe, Bacewicz, Bax, and Mendelssohn. And Prokofiev on Naxos with Aurora.


Welcome! We had an initial order of people who submitted a quartet, and we have pretty much stuck with that same order for three rounds now (give or take some who have either dropped out or joined in). Let me know if you want to be added to the list

For this week, the choice goes to *Knorf!* The following schedule may have to be adjusted accordingly since there are a couple who have not showed up in a while:

Knorf
Simplicissimus
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Iota
Malx
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi


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## starthrower

Deleted...........


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> *EDIT: *I've only just re-read Merl's edited post #2024 and it feels I've duplicated some of what he has said - apologies if that's a bit boring!!


HP, you haven't really duplicated much I've written and it's all your thoughts anyway. I agree about the excellence of this quartet and the Pacificas are definitely cooler but it's an approach as valid as the Haas. Great Post, mate.


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## ELbowe

Well I guess familiarity doesn’t always breeds contempt. After being turned off by Pavel Haas Quartet’s performance I spread the homework listening between Quartetto Energie Nove, Aurora String Quartet, Szymanowski Quartet and Endres Quartet. I found all of these easier on the ear and ended up with Endres a short-head in front of Szymanowski! Reason for such choice…no idea…just following my ear…albeit an old one (two). I actually grew to enjoy the piece especially the second movement. A learning process.


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## Helgi

It's been a very enjoyable week of listening and discovering the Prokofiev quartets. I'm sure I've heard them before as they sounded very familiar (the first one especially), but they're still new to me. Until recently my string quartet listening was limited to Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

I ended up buying a copy of the Pavel Haas album, my ears are very happy with that one


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## sbmonty

A great week of listening to this wonderful work. Very addicting melodies. Especially the one the cello introduces in the first movement. I've been humming that all week. Nice choice and thanks!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For this week, the choice goes to *Knorf!* The following schedule may have to be adjusted accordingly since there are a couple who have not showed up in a while:


Not that I think this was directed at me per se, but I'm still here. Real life has been absolutely mental of late with work and family demands.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Just finished listening to the Calidore. I really love this work and Calidore is one of my favorite current ensembles. I guess I'm just going to have to listen to the whole album now...


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## Knorf

I'll have a submission later today.


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> I'll have a submission later today.


You're such a tease!!!


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## Knorf

HenryPenfold said:


> You're such a tease!!!


N.B. Later today for me might be tomorrow for you.


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> N.B. Later today for me might be tomorrow for you.


:lol:

....


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## Knorf

Alrighty. My choice for next week's string quartet listening is:

*Shulamit Ran*: String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
(duration ca. 22 minutes)

Full disclosure, I studied composition with Shulamit Ran in graduate school, 1992-93, at which time she held a visiting composer residency at my school.

Shulamit Ran is an amazing teacher, an all-around wonderful human being, and most pertinently for this thread, also an incredible composer. Born in Israel, Ran was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 1991 for her absolutely fantastic Symphony No. 1, which was a Chicago Symphony Orchestra commission. It fills me with anger knowing how GREAT that piece is, but as of this writing there is still no commercially-available recording of it. I only know it because she played for me and the other composition students a recording, dubbed onto cassette, of the premiere performance.

Ran's String Quartet No. 3 was composed in 2013 in response to a consortium commission for a Talk Classical favorite ensemble, the Pacifica Quartet, who gave the premiere performance in 2014.

The piece takes its title from a 2006-2007 exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art of art from the Weimer Republic, which was called "Doom and Gloom: German Portraits from the 1920s." Ran uses this title, expanded to "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory," to frame music inspired by the art and life of Felix Nussbaum, a German-Jewish painter who was murdered by the Nazis before his career ever had the opportunity to take off. In her performance notes, Ran speaks of Nussbaum, and other artists who were victims of the Holocaust: "knowing their days were numbered, yet intent on leaving a mark, a legacy, a memory, their art is triumph of the human spirit over annihilation."

There are individual titles for each movement:

I. That which happened. _Das was geschah_, how the poet Paul Celan referred to the Holocaust. Ran describes how "'ordinary' life, with its daily flow and its sense of sweet normalcy, was shockingly, inhumanely, inexplicably shattered."

II. Menace. A scherzo of sorts. Ran refers to "the chilling grimace we recognize from the executioner's mask...it gathers momentum as it goes, and is unstoppable." The style in purely musical terms is not Shostakovian, but the grotesquerie and joking in the face of horror is.

III. "If I perish-do not let my paintings die." These are words by Felix Nussbaum, who was still painting until his death in Auschwitz in 1944. Ran describes this as "an act of defiance and salvation..."

IV. Shards, Memory. Ran writes, "only shards are left. And memory. The memory is of things large and small, of unspeakable tragedy, but also of the song and the dance, the smile, the hopes. All things human...We restore dignity to those who are gone."

Speaking from experience, it is extremely difficult to pull off creating art about such a horrific tragedy. Doing so can come across too easily as a vulture trying to profit only themselves, by selfishly harvesting the overwhelming emotions that inevitably and rightly accompany such tragedies. The artist must communicate how they have also suffered, via deepest introspection and contemplation, and how this has changed them as individuals, a change that demands to be heard, a change drawn from the deepest wells of empathy and understanding. It must have a very personal authenticity to ring true.

In my opinion, Shulamit Ran has done this.

There is a commercial recording available on CD, from Cedille Records, and also this superb video from the Chamber Music Society of Lincoln:










No, serious music is not dead as an art.


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## HenryPenfold

I've not come across Shulamit Ran, so this will be interesting. Good to see that Pacifica Quartet have made a recording and it's available for streaming on Qobuz. I'll give it a first listen this evening.


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## SearsPoncho

Looking forward to the insight you can provide on this. This is probably the first time we have someone that can actually inform the group of the composer's intentions based on first-hand knowledge. Knorf, expect plenty of questions! :lol:

Ooops! I just realized she composed this after your period of study with her. Hopefully we can still get a few valuable nuggets of information from you.


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> Full disclosure, I studied composition with Shulamit Ran in graduate school, 1992-93, at which time she held a visiting composer residency at my school.
> 
> Shulamit Ran is an amazing teacher, an all-around wonderful human being, and most pertinently for this thread, also an incredible composer. Born in Israel, Ran was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 1991 for her absolutely fantastic Symphony No. 1, which was a Chicago Symphony Orchestra commission. It fills me with anger knowing how GREAT that piece is, but as of this writing there is still no commercially-available recording of it. I only know it because she played for me and the other composition students a recording, dubbed onto cassette, of the premiere performance.


A most interesting circumstance. Beyond what you have already explained, I hope there's more light to be shed as the discussion develops.


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## Merl

I'm glad you chose this one (finally) Knorfy. I liked the sound of it when I sampled it before. Fascinating back story too. Here's the first movement courtesy of YouTube.


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## Bwv 1080

Cool, unfamiliar with her work. See she was a student of Elliott Carter. Also, here is a link to the Weimar art exhibit referenced in the title:

https://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2006/glitter-and-doom/photo-gallery


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## Knorf

SearsPoncho said:


> Looking forward to the insight you can provide on this. This is probably the first time we have someone that can actually inform the group of the composer's intentions based on first-hand knowledge. Knorf, expect plenty of questions! :lol:
> 
> Ooops! I just realized she composed this after your period of study with her. Hopefully we can still get a few valuable nuggets of information from you.


Sadly, I can't say that I stayed in touch with her, which is bad on me, and I definitely didn't get to know her personally at the time. Composition lessons were all and only about composition, in other words. I interacted with her a bit socially later when I saw her at a new music conference, but still I don't think I will be able to offer any personal insights, because really all we talked about was music. I can tell you that what she has to say about music in itself will keep you riveted for hours (or, anyway it was that way for me and my composer friends who were there as well.)

Also, I have no insight as to why a recording of her Symphony No. 1 (the Pulitzer Prize winner) has never been forthcoming. Henry Fogel, the former president of the Chicago Symphony (1985-2003), told me long ago that one was in the works, but why it never appeared I have no idea. Daniel Barenboim conducted the premiere, and I'd think he'd be pretty keen to release a recording, but... well, we don't have one.

I can say that things that touch on the identity of being an Israeli and Jewish person born after the Holocaust were very important to her, and have been an important component of her work in many various ways. She talked about an Israeli (not merely Jewish) musical identity, somewhat akin to how composers like Copland, Gershwin, and Ives (among so many others) helped define an American musical identity. But, of course she is also an American, having moved to New York City when she was 14, and became naturalized as a US citizen sometime thereafter. In addition to Elliott Carter, she studied with Norman Dello Joio and Ralph Shapey.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I am new to this thread. Is there some sort of protocol on when and how to comment? I listened to the Pacifica recording of the quartet this morning and found it totally absorbing and very moving. I am, however, only an avid listener, neither a composer nor professional musician, and am happy to read comments of more experienced and knowledgeable participants first, before commenting further.


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## Knorf

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I am new to this thread.


I think the only protocol is being respectful to other posters.

At the foundation, "avid listener" is what we all have in common! Certainly that's also the only qualification necessary, just to be avid enough to follow along the thread, and interested enough to pay attention and wish to say something about what you've heard.

I'm glad you enjoyed it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I am new to this thread. Is there some sort of protocol on when and how to comment? I listened to the Pacifica recording of the quartet this morning and found it totally absorbing and very moving. I am, however, only an avid listener, neither a composer nor professional musician, and am happy to read comments of more experienced and knowledgeable participants first, before commenting further.


Welcome! No rules, just comment as you wish and hang out with fellow music lovers Let me know if you'd like to be added to the list to submit a quartet for the group to listen to.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Thanks, I think I will wait a while before submitting proposals of my own. To say a bit more about Shulamit Ran's quartet: The 1st, 2nd and 4th movements resonated most strongly with me, the 3rd one I have to go back to. I was fascinated by how she picked up the "shards" of the 1st movement in the 4th. In fact, I relistened to the 1st movement again after having listened to the 4th just to retrace the elements she has reworked in fragmented form in the 4th. On the second movement: Certainly the scariest "scherzo" imaginable, especially when she inserts "faux naif " dance or song tunes from the Twenties into a feverish rhythmic and melodic fabric that is a foreboding to the doom of the 3rd movement. At least that's what these snippets sound like to me. All in all, a great piece, not for sitting back and relaxed listening, but one that keeps you on the edge. What I feel particularly remarkable is how - in the midst of dissonance and desolation in this poignant piece she manages to create amazingly beautiful and tuneful sound. This is of course very apparent right at the beginning where this fits the purpose perfectly, but also in the shards and memory movement. And the Pacifica's playing is splendid.


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## SearsPoncho

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Thanks, I think I will wait a while before submitting proposals of my own. To say a bit more about Shulamit Ran's quartet: The 1st, 2nd and 4th movements resonated most strongly with me, the 3rd one I have to go back to. I was fascinated by how she picked up the "shards" of the 1st movement in the 4th. In fact, I relistened to the 1st movement again after having listened to the 4th just to retrace the elements she has reworked in fragmented form in the 4th. On the second movement: Certainly the scariest "scherzo" imaginable, especially when she inserts "faux naif " dance or song tunes from the Twenties into a feverish rhythmic and melodic fabric that is a foreboding to the doom of the 3rd movement. At least that's what these snippets sound like to me. All in all, a great piece, not for sitting back and relaxed listening, but one that keeps you on the edge. What I feel particularly remarkable is how - in the midst of dissonance and desolation in this poignant piece she manages to create amazingly beautiful and tuneful sound. This is of course very apparent right at the beginning where this fits the purpose perfectly, but also in the shards and memory movement. And the Pacifica's playing is splendid.


Wow! Now that's how you do it! An amazing post after the post where you doubted your abilities or qualifications to analyze music. Good job. We don't care if one knows the difference between major and minor or if one can't read music. All we care about is what you think about the music, and you expressed yourself and your thoughts on this piece very well. I'm glad you joined us and shared your thoughts. Please, continue to do so.


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## Merl

I really enjoyed the first movement most of all, on first listen, but tbh i enjoyed it all. Its an intriguing work and boy do the Pacificas do it justice! I'm going to get more stuck into it after midweek. Im currently reviewing a stack of Schubert SQ15 performances in a parallel thread in the chamber section, and thats taking up quite a bit of time, but ill be free to give this my full attention as soon as ive rounded those up. I missed the Schubert at the dawn of this thread and its a personal favourite so I needed to give it a full review in the Merl-stylee. Great choice, Knorfy, and i love the personal connection too. I think this counts as name-dropping, Knorf. :lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio

This piece made for an engaging listen. I’m not a big listener of contemporary music (I like quite a bit of it but my listening priorities lie elsewhere) but it’s nice every once in a while to hear such a recent piece and be reminded, indeed, that “serious music is not dead.” The impression I received was that the clash between the innocent tunes that sounded like Jewish folk themes (not sure if they are direct quotes or not) and the darker, more dissonant music was clearly symbolic of the catastrophic uprooting of Jewish life by the regime. Knowing the program does not make this an easy piece to listen to - art centered around such atrocities is never easy to swallow - but it is well-done and I’m glad I heard it.


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## Knorf

Yes, I knew this would make for heavy listening. But I thought since International Holocaust Remembrance Day (Jan. 27, the day Auschwitz was liberated in 1945), just came and went, it seemed appropriate. And I do think it is a really fantastic piece.


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## sbmonty

I enjoyed this recording. Sombre for the most part. Arresting passages in the II movement, which I really liked. Thanks for recommending this work Knorf. I'll definitely listen a few more times this week.


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## ELbowe

Shulamit Ran's String Quartet No. 3 “Glitter, Shards, Doom, Memory”
I have listened to this work twice this week with Pacifica Quartet. I found it very emotional and am unsure if I can revisit it again at the moment; It is so sad, especially the final movement. My emotional demeanour currently is quite low so I will note it for another time and listen again. Thanks for the choice and interesting back-story!!!


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## Helgi

I appreciate being pushed into something like this, as it's definitely outside of my normal zone of listening. Feel like I've learned something new about music in general and what it can do.

ACB's post pretty much sums up my impressions as well.


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## Josquin13

My apologies for being behind the group (once again), but I haven't gotten to Knorf's pick for the week yet. I plan to listen to the quartet in the next couple of days. In the meantime, here's what I wrote about the Prokofiev SQ from last week (which I'm only just getting around to posting now):

I listened to two performances of Prokofiev's 2nd Quartet this past week, and the interpretations were quite different, but in a good way! First, I must say that the recording by Quarteto Energie Nove is a real find, Merl. It's a brilliantly played, extroverted, lively performance, and the group's technical address is dazzling. (I continue to be astonished by the quality of SQ playing today--it seems like almost every week you/we discover a fantastic new group or groups, not known to me before.) In regards to Prokofiev's 2nd quartet (which was a great pick, btw!), I felt like I had the score right in front of me, every nuance and detail was clearly brought out. Nothing got lost or diminished. Thanks for introducing me to this very engaging performance! It certainly gives us a unique vantage point and perspective each week that you're willing (& able) to listen to so many different recordings, and you do so, so intelligently and attentively. I'm grateful. In fact, I'm afraid I've gotten a bit lazy, since I've found that I can rely on your picks. 

I also listened to Quarteto Energie Nove's performance of Prokofiev's 1st Quartet, and was a bit startled by how quickly they began the 1st movement. It's unusual, but I think it could grow on me. In short, I'm going to have to buy this CD. It fulfills my criterion for buying multiple recordings of a work--i.e., that the interpretations compliment each other well and provide fascinating contrasts. 

Which was the case when I compared Quarteto Energie Nove's recording to the other recording that I listened to this week (& own) by the St. Petersburg Quartet; which, I agree, inhabits "a different sound world". The Russian's interpretation is more introverted and intimate and downplayed (but not underplayed): which I thought paid real dividends in the 2nd and 3rd movements, & surprisingly so in the 3rd movement, in contrast to the Italians. My first impression was that Quarteto Energie Nove shows the greater technical address but, in hindsight, it may not be that easy a conclusion to draw, not when you consider that the St. Petersburg musicians aren't trying to dazzle the listener in the same way. Rather, I think they're deliberately trying to inhabit a more interior world that is arguably a part of the score and evoke a greater sense of intimacy. Whether that makes them more idiomatic and "Russian" in their interpretation, I'm not sure. Maybe it does, but that's something I'm going to have to think about. For example, I'm not sure who actually gets closer to the Karbardino-Balkar folk elements in this music, despite Bwv 1080's helpful YT clip. It may come down to how extroverted & lively the folk music is that Prokofiev heard and was drawing upon, and the Italians are certainly the more lively and extroverted group. However, I'm not entirely certain about what Prokofiev was actually hearing, and wouldn't a Russian quartet likely understand that folk influence better, and be more in tune with it? You'd think so.

I'm afraid that I didn't get to the Pavel Haas Quartet's recording this week, but have listened to their performance in the past and liked it very much. They're in their element here, too. I preferred the Pavel Haas Qt. to the Italians in the 1st movement of the 1st Quartet (though maybe not in the 2nd Quartet)--since the Czech musicians likewise play the 1st movement with a tremendous thrust & energy and forward drive, yet they somehow manage to do so without sounding rushed or too quick, light, and nimble. There's a weightiness and drive to their first movement that I like, which the Italians don't go for. But I'll have to listen to the two groups together at some point.

Considering that I bought the Chilingirian, Emerson, and St. Petersburg Quartet recordings many years ago--back in the 1990s (or early 2000s), it's great to see that such brilliant new SQ recordings have come into the catalogue since then, which are more than competitive with these earlier groups. It helps to restore my faith in where music is headed today.


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## Merl

Firstly thanks Jos for the kind words. That Energie Nove disc really was a find for me too!

As far as the Ran quartet I'm liking it more with repeated plays. Its moving but I dont find if unduly depressing. I can hear Bartok and Part in there and that's fine by me. The Pacifica's recording is the star of the show . Their playing is phenomenal and its no wonder they're now considered by many to be one of the best quartets around.


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## Knorf

I agree; I don't think the Ran is a depressing piece. It's sad, and certainly tragic, but also allows for real beauty to transcend the circumstances. As such, in the end I find it uplifting. Cathartic, I guess.


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## Malx

Finally got around to spending some time with the Ran quartet today - listened through the Pacifica recording on Qobuz three times today. First observation is that three listens on the trott was not a chore and respect for the work grew each time.
Given the inspiration of the piece this is a deep and dark work but not overly gloomy or excessively melancholic. I found the third movement most haunting, I can imagine the painter furiously applying paint on whatever medium available to get finished before the inevitable ending.
The Pacificas play with great skill and treat the piece with due reverence - all in all another first class discovery for me which has been added to my wish list.


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## HenryPenfold

I've listened to Ran's Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory 5 or six times this week and I'm not sure how to assimilate all that I'm hearing (I mean that in a positive way). It's a very stimulating and thought provoking composition and part of me wishes that I did not know the background story at the outset. 

I must say that this sort of music is very much my cup of tea. The first movement (That Which Happened) is very self-contained in that starts out with some delicate, light and simple sonorities from which a fuller musical sound easily develops, and after a while, just when you are wondering if anything more needs to be said at this point, it ends. It's hard to explain, but I think the first movement is so perfectly wrought that Ran could have gone anywhere with the second movement; a dirge, a long plaintive slow movement - she chose a dance, of sorts. And what a second movement it is (Menace). Possibly the highlight of the piece. I really like the thumping of the body of the instruments, the hitting of the strings with the bows and the interesting plucking. There are quite a few modern/contemporary composers who go in for this sort of thing with it just coming across gratuitous. Here it is entirely in keeping with the baleful narrative. The third movement (If I Perish, Do Not Let My Paintings Die) was on my first listens, my favourite movement, I particularly like the cello writing. The last movement (Shards, Memory) less muscular than the music that has gone before and is, to me, the only time the music, despite its subject, gets melancholic. With so much deep music stimulating the mind, the simple way the movement ends is almost abrupt.

I love the sound-world of this quartet and I will be revisiting it, quite possibly, regularly. Listening to the string quartets of Meyer, Coates and the like, I'm often left slightly dissatisfied that I've not got more from the music. That's not the case here. I really feel I've barely scratched the surface with this quartet and I look forward to my experience evolving over time.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> The Pacifica's recording is the star of the show . Their playing is phenomenal and its no wonder they're now considered by many to be one of the best quartets around.


It certainly is a terrific recording and performance that brings much pleasure to my ears. I just listen to it as pure music without much emphasis on the back story. But whatever the composer's inspiration and thought process entailed, it inspired some fine music. On the whole it's a well focused, reflective, and uncluttered piece of music which I find very attractive. You picked a winner, Knorf!


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## Merl

Oops.... :tiphat:


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## Merl

The first movement was what initially hooked me in but now the second movement is my highlight of this one. It's filled with thumps, plucks and slides and ends with that slightly creepy mechanical waltz that I find compelling.


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## SearsPoncho

I can't add much to the excellent analysis of the last several pages regarding Ren's 3rd String Quartet. She's clearly a talented composer who has a knack for writing for string quartet, and she took full advantage of the spectrum of dynamics, timbre and balance that the idiom provides. I don't believe one moment was wasted. I believe it was all good, but the 3rd movement was the most successful, with the defiant artist desperately trying to get the last word through his art. I found the whole thing very accessible, and it was made all the more accessible because of the programmatic nature of the music. I realize that the subject matter might be difficult to approach, however, I, and I assume many others, listen to similar works regarding difficult subjects in the compositions of Shostakovich, Messiaen, and others. Despite the programme, most of the time I had a visual image of a mother standing over her infant child's grave. I know this image doesn't exactly match the programme. Furthermore, music must exist on its own, and it's success depends on the success of the music and nothing else. This is what I believe. Nevertheless, I kept imagining a mother standing over her daughter's grave. I've heard the piece 3 times by the Pacifica Quartet. Every time I got to the 3:49 mark of the last movement I perked up. The next three to four notes sound EXACTLY like the first three notes the violin soloist plays in Berg's Violin Concerto, which, as you know, was dedicated to Alma Mahler's 18- year-old daughter who died. Does anyone else hear that? To me, it sounds very clear. Of course, like many musical compositions, it could be (and probably is) just a coincidence. Then again, Mahler was Jewish, and some believe his Three Orchestral Pieces were prescient in possibly predicting the worst atrocities of the 20th Century. Ok, I'm kind of getting way off topic. 

Thanks, Knorf for providing this interesting music. It must have been enjoyable to study with Ms. Ren.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Simplicissimus* and *calvinpv*, you guys hanging around? If not, we'll have to go to *newyorkconversation* for this week's pick (who has recently informed that he's still tracking along).


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## Carmina Banana

Hey, everybody. I am excited to jump into this thread. I enjoy listening to string quartets (and all other chamber music) and have been looking for a discussion group like this. I listened to the Ran and really liked it(!!) but I think I will wait for your next quartet before try to say anything substantial.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *Simplicissimus* and *calvinpv*, you guys hanging around? If not, we'll have to go to *newyorkconversation* for this week's pick (who has recently informed that he's still tracking along).


Had any response, ACB? I'm getting itchy ears. Lol


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I've been meaning to jump into this thread, SQs are the bread and butter of my listening and I enjoy reading the informative opinions and insights you all have here! If I ever get busy and don't respond, don't wait up for me you can just move along


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Had any response, ACB? I'm getting itchy ears. Lol


Nope. NYC, looks like you're up!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Nope. NYC, looks like you're up!


Come on NYC! This isn't good enough. :lol:


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## newyorkconversation

Ignaz Pleyel
String Quartet in G Major, B. 332 (1786)

Although Pleyel was extremely popular in his day (that period in the late 1700s when Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were all writing), he is not so popular today, and so there exists only one recording of this work that I know of (Pleyel Quartett's on CPO).

Rather than listen to multiple recordings of the same piece, then, I gently suggest an exploration of additional works from Pleyel's quartet repertoire. The pieces are simple, balanced, and pleasant -- popular music, to be sure, but for me quite charming. Sort of, what would have happened to quartet music, if Beethoven hadn't. 

Pleyel wrote ~60 quartets so there is a lot of material, even if most of it hasn't ever been recorded. He is of course more famous as a publisher, the founder of a piano company bearing his name, and via the piano company of the Salle Pleyel which still presents chamber music in Paris today!


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## Merl

60 quartets! Bloody hell. Looking forward to hearing this one though. I don't know Pleyel's quartets well at all. Is there a link to a performance on this on YouTube as I can't find it in Spotify?

Edit: found it in Spotify.


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## HenryPenfold

Can't find that particular quartet on Qobuz. Found Naxos recording of his Op. 2 No.s 4-6. Wonderful music.

But how we gonna hear the chosen work?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here we go!














Inspired choice, NYC; I can't say I've ever heard of Pleyel outside of the keyboards named after him. Wiki  actually puts the number at _seventy_ quartets in addition to 42 symphonies. Sounds like he was very popular in his day before quickly plummeting into obscurity, a la Raff.


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## HenryPenfold

Well done 'Legro - extra tuck from matron this week for you! :tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> Well done 'Legro - extra tuck from matron this week for you! :tiphat:


Hmm, I was going to click "like" but I'm not familiar with this phrase...a British saying? Or a typo? I've already learned lots of British phrases from my time on this forum that I've come to love (like "chalk and cheese") so I'd be curious to know what this one means...


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## newyorkconversation

I have a penchant for this period, and I've listened to the major repertoire so much that it's nice to explore sometimes. Can also suggest the quartets of Louis Spohr and George Onslow.


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## Knorf

Ignaz Pleyel! Wow, interesting choice! Listening now.


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## Merl

Without sounding negative, I found the quartet to be pleasant but a bit of a pale pastiche of Mozart for my tastes. I have a Pleyel Symphonies disc that I feel the same way about. Not bad but just not distinct enough. However, I listened, and enjoyed more, a later quartet work (D369) and you can tell that there's some greater Beethoven influence there. It's still fairly Haydnesque but there are some nice flourishes of Beethoven that I enjoyed. I"ll try some sextet and quintets tomorrow.


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## ELbowe

newyorkconversation said:


> Ignaz Pleyel
> String Quartet in G Major, B. 332 (1786)
> 
> Although Pleyel was extremely popular in his day (that period in the late 1700s when Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were all writing), he is not so popular today, and so there exists only one recording of this work that I know of (Pleyel Quartett's on CPO).
> 
> Rather than listen to multiple recordings of the same piece, then, I gently suggest an exploration of additional works from Pleyel's quartet repertoire. The pieces are simple, balanced, and pleasant -- popular music, to be sure, but for me quite charming. Sort of, what would have happened to quartet music, if Beethoven hadn't.
> 
> Pleyel wrote ~60 quartets so there is a lot of material, even if most of it hasn't ever been recorded. He is of course more famous as a publisher, the founder of a piano company bearing his name, and via the piano company of the Salle Pleyel which still presents chamber music in Paris today!


Thanks for the choice for the week...I have found a recording on YT....for me after a few weeks of emotional tumult I enjoy your choice very much.....not demanding but interesting! ....thank you!!!


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## newyorkconversation

Pleyel studied with Haydn in Austria, was associated with him in London, and then became his publisher in France. I expect a lot of people thought he would be Haydn's successor. His most celebrated quartet at the time seems to be have been a quartet in G Major, B.349, whose melody became known as "Pleyel's Hymn." No recording of a quartet performance exists, but the melody is this: 



 (compare for example Haydn's "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser").


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## HenryPenfold

[deleted post, post deleted]


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## HenryPenfold

I still haven't got the hang of this! It's a shame we can't be trusted to delete our own post and must escalate a request to the people who manage the site .......


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Hmm, I was going to click "like" but I'm not familiar with this phrase...a British saying? Or a typo? I've already learned lots of British phrases from my time on this forum that I've come to love (like "chalk and cheese") so I'd be curious to know what this one means...




Tuck shops were common in English schools down the years and feature in stories like Tom Brown's school days. They sold treats and snacks to those pupils who could afford it. In some schools it was rationed and overseen by the matron (who was in charge of welfare). How times have changed!

https://flashbak.com/inside-the-eton-college-and-westminster-school-tuck-shops-1925-1937-53723/


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> Can't find that particular quartet on Qobuz. Found Naxos recording of his Op. 2 No.s 4-6. Wonderful music.
> 
> But how we gonna hear the chosen work?


Search in Qobuz for the 'Pleyel Quartett' set the 'search in' heading to main artist - at least I have found it that way.
:tiphat:


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## ELbowe

HenryPenfold said:


> Tuck shops were common in English schools down the years and feature in stories like Tom Brown's school days. They sold treats and snacks to those pupils who could afford it. In some schools it was rationed and overseen by the matron (who was in charge of welfare). How times have changed!
> 
> https://flashbak.com/inside-the-eton-college-and-westminster-school-tuck-shops-1925-1937-53723/


Great snaps....brings back memories....especially about mid-term when my credit ran out!


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Without sounding negative, I found the quartet to be pleasant but a bit of a pale pastiche of Mozart for my tastes. I have a Pleyel Symphonies disc that I feel the same way about. Not bad but just not distinct enough. However, I listened, and enjoyed more, a later quartet work (D369) and you can tell that there's some greater Beethoven influence there. It's still fairly Haydnesque but there are some nice flourishes of Beethoven that I enjoyed. I"ll try some sextet and quintets tomorrow.


I have to agree with Merl on this one. I always look forward to hearing unfamiliar composers and works but if you're still reading this, I wanted to inform my friends on this excellent thread that I'm outta here. I don't like the direction this forum, and more specifically, the Classical Music Discussion forum, has taken lately. Disgusting 14-year old boy nonsense.


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## Bwv 1080

Cant really call this a pastiche of Mozart, as they were contemporaries and this was written some time in the 1780s I believe - around the same time Mozart wrote his Haydn quartets. Pleyel was a student of Haydn and only about a year older than Mozart. Stylistically this piece seems similar - but am guessing its a reflection of the common influence of Haydn and the current style of that time (styles did change within the classical period). Found it a solid, well crafted work, full of ideas and no obvious cliches - and by no means inferior to some of the 19th and 20th century works posted here. I like it as well or better than anything I have heard by any classical period composer not named Franz Joseph, Wolfgang or Ludwig.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> I have to agree with Merl on this one. I always look forward to hearing unfamiliar composers and works but if you're still reading this, I wanted to inform my friends on this excellent thread that I'm outta here. I don't like the direction this forum, and more specifically, the Classical Music Discussion forum, has taken lately. Disgusting 14-year old boy nonsense.


Come on, SP, I've been around this forum long enough not to be put off by a few silly posters and posts and a bit of bickering. When I first joined here World War 3 was kicking off and the atmosphere was positively toxic but it soon blew over, people got banned, harsh words were exchanged, people flounced off and then things went back to an even keel. Stick around and if you don't like the atmosphere at the mo, fear not. It will all blow over, it always does. Please don't make me use one of my flouncing memes. Lol


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## newyorkconversation

SearsPoncho said:


> I have to agree with Merl on this one. I always look forward to hearing unfamiliar composers and works but if you're still reading this, I wanted to inform my friends on this excellent thread that I'm outta here. I don't like the direction this forum, and more specifically, the Classical Music Discussion forum, has taken lately. Disgusting 14-year old boy nonsense.


SearsPoncho I'm so sorry that my decision to cast some light on this composer has made you quit this thread! I hope you will reconsider in a week when there will be another selection by another participant.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Please don't make me use one of my flouncing memes.


I, for one, require a flouncing meme.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> I, for one, require a flouncing meme.


I like this one in particular.


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## StevehamNY

NYC, thank you for choosing a quartet (and composer in general) that I probably wouldn't have otherwise found. The sense of "order and light" (to steal from Les Miz) in this quartet is exactly what I need when the rest of the world is turned upside down. 

By the way, I can find it on Qobuz, Spotify, and Amazon Music by searching on "Pleyel 332." And yes, I have active subscriptions on all three. I probably need an intervention.

In all seriousness, I appreciate everybody here, and look forward to checking this forum every day.


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## Helgi

newyorkconversation said:


> SearsPoncho I'm so sorry that my decision to cast some light on this composer has made you quit this thread! I hope you will reconsider in a week when there will be another selection by another participant.


I don't think this thread or your choice of SQ is the issue at all


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## Merl

Now I feel bad for my negative comment. Damn you, SP. Btw, I listened to a few more Pleyel works earlier. I enjoyed the Quintet in E-flat major but much preferred the Oboe and Flute quartets which I thought were charming, I also relistened to this week's quartet and enjoyed it more than on first listen. The final movement works best for me.


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## Allegro Con Brio

SearsPoncho said:


> I have to agree with Merl on this one. I always look forward to hearing unfamiliar composers and works but if you're still reading this, I wanted to inform my friends on this excellent thread that I'm outta here. I don't like the direction this forum, and more specifically, the Classical Music Discussion forum, has taken lately. Disgusting 14-year old boy nonsense.


I understand your frustration, my friend, but I would encourage you to stick around even if just for this thread! I believe I do not speak only for myself when I say that I would miss your consistently insightful comments. I too am disappointed with some of the flame wars on the main forum lately, but I've resolved from now on to stick mainly to this thread, Current Listening, and any other totally innocuous, fellowship-fostering threads, avoiding anything that has even a remote potential for flame wars. As much as some things here may get on my nerves, I've found it's easy to ignore the users and threads that rub one the wrong way and focus on the positive benefits of the forum, which (in my opinion) outnumber the drawbacks. I'm a very selective Internet user; I don't belong to hardly any other forum/social sites besides this because I tend to get annoyed with the propensities of Internet discussion. But I think what we have going in this thread is quite special, and it's been heartening lately to see a few people who have been "lurking" and not commenting, but who have still voiced their appreciation for the sense of cameraderie and discovery that this thread has kindled. I think it especially serves as an island of community in the midst of such trying times worldwide.

But SP, do whatever you see fit. If you leave, we will all miss you very much and wish you the best!

As for the Pleyel, I found it to be a very typical Classical period work in that I could pretty much predict all the formal gestures as they happened (thanks to playing so many Haydn and Mozart piano sonatas). But I would not call it a subpar work; merely average for the time. Though mostly devoid of Haydn's humor and wit and Mozart's subtle harmonic language (outside of some interesting chromaticism in the second movement), I found it made for attractive listening, and I wish there were more performances of it to compare interpretations. The Classical era is probably my least favorite musical period, but it's still nice to broaden one's horizons and get to know such lesser-known composers that I've badly neglected due to my general indifference toward the time frame.


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## Helgi

My initial impression is that these are nice to listen to and not without interest, but tentative and sort of _limp_. More so because of the inevitable (and constant for me while listening) comparison to Haydn and Mozart.

Very much a Sunday afternoon at the country estate kind of thing, uplifting and no surprises to upset the mood like with Haydn


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## Carmina Banana

First of all, it was interesting to find out a bit about Pleyel, he has always been in my peripheral view because of his piano manufacturing, Salle Pleyel, etc., but I haven’t explored his compositional output. 
At the risk of sounding anti-Pleyel (I’m not entirely) this piece makes me appreciate Mozart more. And Haydn. And Beethoven. It has all of the familiar idioms and language of his more esteemed contemporaries, but none of the depth. Maybe complexity would be a better word. What I find so compelling about composers like Beethoven and Mozart is how they pit conflicting elements against each other in the arena of sonata form. This is not so much an arena as a playpen. The allegro movement in particular lacks any conflict and it comes across as a nice theme followed by a nice second theme, nice closing theme, etc. The performers decide to repeat the exposition, which exacerbates the situation. I think this is definitely a once-is-enough kind of exposition.
I don’t want to be accused of foisting expectations on Pleyel that don’t belong there. I’m not saying he is bad at being Beethoven. Obviously, he wasn’t trying to be Beethoven and probably had a different agenda. I do think it is a great way to frame Beethoven. When you say Beethoven went above and beyond the norm, this is the norm.
I think the other two movements fare better. The second movement is lovely, though far from profound and the rondo has that familiar rollicking feeling we associate with Mozart and Haydn. It even has the Haydnesque pause. Fun listening.
I have enjoyed hearing this piece, overall, despite my criticisms. I might say that I enjoyed the performance more than the composition, though. The Pleyel Quartet Koln plays with elegance and a beautiful blended sound. I get the feeling they wanted to portray Pleyel in the best possible light.
I am looking forward to checking out some more Pleyel so I get a fuller picture of him as a composer.


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## newyorkconversation

Helgi said:


> I don't think this thread or your choice of SQ is the issue at all


well, that's a relief


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I have similar impressions of the Pleyel G Major quartet as previous posts. It's far from bland and it's actually quite lovely, but it doesn't hold a candle to Haydn or Mozart quartets at their most inspired, though that comparison is naturally unfair. That being said, I actually did enjoy this more than some Haydn and Mozart SQs (I actually find a number of Mozart SQs sorta bland but the Viola Quintets amazing). Pleyel achieves a nice balance between the 4 voices, especially in bringing the viola out. I found the development section in the 1st movement to be a bit short and underwhelming, but all in all it's a really nice listen. 

Listening to a SQ by a lesser-known composer from the Classical Period reminded me of Leopold Kozeluch's quartets which are actually quite inventive and inspired, and musicologists look at them as a prototype/precursor to Beethoven in some ways (I might pick one whenever it ends up being my turn!  ). Merl mentioned another work by Pleyel he listened to (D369) which he said also had some hints of Beethoven in it. I'm going to listen to that and see if I can find some parallels between that work and the Kozeluchs at all.

EDIT: Just listened to Pleyel's String Quartet in D Major B.369 that Merl mentioned (assuming it's the same one). I agree that this has more depth and Pleyel's voice seems a lot more developed here, but I don't quite hear the rhythmic inventiveness of Beethoven, rather the "contrast of light and dark shades" of Mozart is more readily apparent here. There's also more interplay and interaction between the voices. I prefer this one, but I like both. Great choice by OP bringing an obscure composer to light I wouldn't have listened to otherwise.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

SearsPoncho said:


> I have to agree with Merl on this one. I always look forward to hearing unfamiliar composers and works but if you're still reading this, I wanted to inform my friends on this excellent thread that I'm outta here. I don't like the direction this forum, and more specifically, the Classical Music Discussion forum, has taken lately. Disgusting 14-year old boy nonsense.


Are you referring to John Lenin or the flame wars / petty spats? It's up to you, but I wouldn't leave on account of either of them. Trolls like John Lenin come and go (i.e get banned) and immaturity just comes with the territory of the internet. That's only really confined to certain threads anyway. I don't touch that "Politics and Religion" subsection with a 10-foot pole


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## Malx

I have now listened to the Pleyel quartet three times and it grew in my estimation a little each time, or is that just familiarity kicking in, who knows.
Ultimately though its one of those works that I'm glad to have heard and can find no fault with but it is perhaps just a smidgen below top rank, at least for this listener. Already having quartets by Mozart & Haydnin my collection I have never felt the need to venture further to find other classical period quartet recordings and whilst the Pleyel is fine it hasn't really inspired me to keep looking.
Good to hear something I wouldn't have normally gone near - so for that thanks for your selection NYC.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Just a quick check-in on the members who have recently joined this thread: *Carmina Banana*, *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern* (whew, that's some username) and *StevehamNY* - would you like to choose a quartet some time down the road?


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Sure, just add me to the queue


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## Carmina Banana

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Just a quick check-in on the members who have recently joined this thread: *Carmina Banana*, *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern* (whew, that's sone username) and *StevehamNY* - would you like to choose a quartet some time down the road?


Sure, I would love to!


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Just a quick check-in on the members who have recently joined this thread: *Carmina Banana*, *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern* (whew, that's sone username) and *StevehamNY* - would you like to choose a quartet some time down the road?


ACB - with all the newbies around would now be a good time to post the list of previously chosen quartets.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> ACB - with all the newbies around would now be a good time to post the list of previously chosen quartets.


Yes, as a newbie, I'd find that helpful.


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## ELbowe

Malx said:


> I have now listened to the Pleyel quartet three times and it grew in my estimation a little each time, or is that just familiarity kicking in, who knows.......Good to hear something I wouldn't have normally gone near - so for that thanks for your selection NYC.


*I have been listening to this piece daily......and the above comments reflect my sentiment entirely! Thanks NYC! *


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here is our list for what has basically been a full year now of quartets! I'm seriously considering making a Spotify playlist for the Weekly Quartet with Merl's top recording recommendations...maybe look for it this weekend

*First Round*

23 Feb: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
1 Mar: Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
8 Mar: Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
15 Mar: Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
22 Mar: Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
29 Mar: Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
5 Apr: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
12 Apr: Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1080)
19 Apr: Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
20 Apr: Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
3 May: Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
10 May: Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

17 May: Ravel - String Quartet in F Major (Eramire156)
24 May: Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
31 May: Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
7 June: Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
14 June: Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
21 June: Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
28 June: Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
5 July: Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
12 July: Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
19 July: Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
26 July: Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
2 Aug: Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

*Second Round*

9 Aug: Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
16 Aug: Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
23 Aug: Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
30 Aug: Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
6 Sept: Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
13 Sept: Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
20 Sept: Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
26 Sept: Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
4 Oct: Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
11 Oct: Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)

18 Oct: Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
25 Oct: Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)
1 Nov: Rihm - Et Lux for string quartet and vocals (calvinpv)
8 Nov: Ives - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
15 Nov: Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2 (Rangstrom)
22 Nov: Bax - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
29 Nov: Dutilleux - Ainsi la nuit (starthrower)
6 Dec: Gade - String Quartet in E Minor (annaw)
13 Dec: Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14 (SearsPoncho)

*Third Round*

20 Dec: Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16 (Allegro Con Brio)
27 Dec: Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet (Mandryka)
3 Jan: Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1 (Josquin13)
10 Jan: Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 (Portamento)
17 Jan: Haydn - String Quartet in F Minor, Op. 20/5 (Bwv 1080)
24 Jan: Langgaard and Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4 (sbmonty)
31 Jan: Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian" (Merl)
7 Feb: Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory" (Knorf)
14 Feb: Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332 (newyorkconversation)


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Just a quick check-in on the members who have recently joined this thread: *Carmina Banana*, *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern* (whew, that's some username) and *StevehamNY* - would you like to choose a quartet some time down the road?


I'd be honored to participate -- but fair warning, I'm deep into the Русские струнные квартеты!


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## Carmina Banana

Here is a snippet from liner notes by Allen Badly that I think was enlightening and jibes with my impressions:
"Another interesting tendency in Pleyel’s quartets is the reduction in the length of the development section in sonata-form movements in the later quartets. This contraction and the growing emphasis on lyricism rather than thematic manipulation represents a conscious rejection of Haydn’s approach to large-scale musical construction but one that is also inextricably linked to Pleyel’s fondness for concertante writing with its demand for simpler musical textures and his cultivation of an intensely lyrical style."


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I'd be honored to participate -- but fair warning, I'm deep into the Русские струнные квартеты!


Does this involve meeting in deserted Russian car parks in the middle of the night and flashing your lights twice? :devil:


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Does this involve meeting in deserted Russian car parks in the middle of the night and flashing your lights twice? :devil:


You know what, there was actually this one project back in the 1980's, just before the wall came down...

No, never mind, I've said too much already.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> You know what, there was actually this one project back in the 1980's, just before the wall came down...
> 
> No, never mind, I've said too much already.


Lol, seriously if you are into Russian quartets check out a very old thread on here (9/10 years ago). Here's the link.

Russian String Quartets


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Lol, seriously if you are into Russian quartets check out a very old thread on here (9/10 years ago). Here's the link.
> 
> Russian String Quartets


I'll eat this up, thanks!


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## FastkeinBrahms

I just spent a delightful twenty minutes or so listening to the Pleyel quartet, something I would not have done without this thread, so thank you. I love the way he brings out the colours of each of the string intruments, even to the point where I thought I was actually hearing woodwinds! In the slow movement he makes the viola almost sound like a bassoon at one point. Of the three movements, I was most taken by the Rondeau, which is full of surprises. It actually starts off with a typical moderate tempo and slightly boring theme, inviting the listener to doze off. But then throughout the movement, new motifs keep coming and coming, with the at least one wild run quite soon after the first theme that sounds almost like a fleeting reference to the summer storm by Vivaldi, and sections where you seem to hear a horn playing (maybe that's just me hearing voices).

I must say that I greatly enjoy following a thread that manages to come up with Shulamit Ran and Ignaz Pleyel within a few days. I am looking forward to following it further!


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## Merl

Nice to have a swathe of new blood on this thread so thanks for all those new to the thread for their recent contributions (the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned). 

I must admit, a further play of the Pleyel SQ has slightly improved my opinion of it but I still find it just 'pleasant'. I'm enjoying a fair bit of Pleyel's other chamber works, though, so thanks to NYC for prompting me to explore it. Btw, the Pleyel Quartet Koln play very nicely and the recording has a nice warmth and depth.


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## Carmina Banana

I listened to a couple piano trios from Pleyel's opus 16 this morning. These are much stronger pieces in my opinion. The e minor #5 is a very dramatic piece, tersely written and fully embracing the Sturm und Drang trend. You can hear that Pleyel was an excellent pianist--all of the writing really shows off the instrument. Maybe the best thing I have heard is the slow movement from the g major #2. Mysteriously beautiful, it is maybe one of those gateway pieces to the romantic era.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Does this involve meeting in deserted Russian car parks in the middle of the night and flashing your lights twice? :devil:


This right here is what makes this the best thread on TC.


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## Burbage

Merl said:


> I must admit, a further play of the Pleyel SQ has slightly improved my opinion of it but I still find it just 'pleasant'.


Isn't that the point of it? It's a quartet that's tuneful, harmonious and won't annoy the cat. It is, I'd imagine, great fun to play, even though, or perhaps because, it doesn't hit many virtuosic buttons. To borrow a phrase, it's a quartet that just works.

Pleyel, I gather, sold lots of these to a well-heeled public that bought them, played them and, presumably once they'd tired of them, came back for many more. Although he'd crept the same corridors of power that Haydn had, I imagine he felt somewhat overshadowed and so, rather than pinning is career on the fortunes of quixotic aristocrats who only sometimes paid their bills, he cultivated a less elevated, but more generally reliable, market.

So, rather than cultivate the magic-fingered players of court and concert-hall, in the hope they'd spread his reputation across Europe, like merry sparrows spreading blueberry seeds, Pleyel seems to have concentrated on getting his name into private homes by way of publishing. Unlike Haydn, who was much more careful with his intellectual property, Pleyel would happily send the same work to four different publishing houses at once, and seems almost to have welcomed a little piracy.

Not all his bets paid off, but he made even those that failed pay out, somehow. A few years before this quartet, he'd given up toiling in palaces for a job herding choirs at the cathedral in Strasbourg, presumably wagering that the church might be be a more reliable employer than some of Haydn's. He was wrong in that for, a few years after, the French Revolution swept the church away, along with many other patrons of the arts. Nevertheless, Pleyel carried on regardless, simply swapping the sacred texts he'd been setting for revolutionary ones, and keeping his job in the re-branded Temple.

Meanwhile, his sidelines remained profitable and, as we know, his fortune, and reputation, were soon enough to set himself up as both pianomonger and publisher, continuing to boost his personal brand, and tapping new markets (e.g. selling miniature scores - a novelty at the time - to students) to boost his fortunes, such that he was soon able to rival, if not eclipse, more established names.

Whenever I listen to the weekly quartet, I like to ask "why?" and, for the most part, the search for an answer takes me somewhere interesting, so even the backwaters can be as intriguing as the rapids. For me, this quartet, though not too engaging in itself, seems to hold a prism over Haydn's world, giving a tangential glimpse into the mass-market home-entertainment of two centuries ago, and of a composer who, as industrious as any, and possibly as talented, took a subtly different path to posterity.


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## Merl

Burbage said:


> Isn't that the point of it? It's a quartet that's tuneful, harmonious and won't annoy the cat. It is, I'd imagine, great fun to play, even though, or perhaps because, it doesn't hit many virtuosic buttons. To borrow a phrase, it's a quartet that just works.
> 
> Pleyel, I gather, sold lots of these to a well-heeled public that bought them, played them and, presumably once they'd tired of them, came back for many more. Although he'd crept the same corridors of power that Haydn had, I imagine he felt somewhat overshadowed and so, rather than pinning is career on the fortunes of quixotic aristocrats who only sometimes paid their bills, he cultivated a less elevated, but more generally reliable, market.
> 
> So, rather than cultivate the magic-fingered players of court and concert-hall, in the hope they'd spread his reputation across Europe, like merry sparrows spreading blueberry seeds, Pleyel seems to have concentrated on getting his name into private homes by way of publishing. Unlike Haydn, who was much more careful with his intellectual property, Pleyel would happily send the same work to four different publishing houses at once, and seems almost to have welcomed a little piracy.
> 
> Not all his bets paid off, but he made even those that failed pay out, somehow. A few years before this quartet, he'd given up toiling in palaces for a job herding choirs at the cathedral in Strasbourg, presumably wagering that the church might be be a more reliable employer than some of Haydn's. He was wrong in that for, a few years after, the French Revolution swept the church away, along with many other patrons of the arts. Nevertheless, Pleyel carried on regardless, simply swapping the sacred texts he'd been setting for revolutionary ones, and keeping his job in the re-branded Temple.
> 
> Meanwhile, his sidelines remained profitable and, as we know, his fortune, and reputation, were soon enough to set himself up as both pianomonger and publisher, continuing to boost his personal brand, and tapping new markets (e.g. selling miniature scores - a novelty at the time - to students) to boost his fortunes, such that he was soon able to rival, if not eclipse, more established names.
> 
> Whenever I listen to the weekly quartet, I like to ask "why?" and, for the most part, the search for an answer takes me somewhere interesting, so even the backwaters can be as intriguing as the rapids. For me, this quartet, though not too engaging in itself, seems to hold a prism over Haydn's world, giving a tangential glimpse into the mass-market home-entertainment of two centuries ago, and of a composer who, as industrious as any, and possibly as talented, took a subtly different path to posterity.


So are we saying that Pleyel was the Bobby Crush of his age? Lol


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## Allegro Con Brio

Just updating the nominator list with our newcomers! *calvinpv* has told me he will be choosing this week.

I have not yet asked two new members whether they would like to be added to the list: *FastkeinBrahms* and *Burbage* - you in?

Current list of scheduled nominators:

calvinpv
Iota
Malx
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY


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## FastkeinBrahms

Thanks, happy to be added.


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## Burbage

I'd be happy to be added, too. Thanks.


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## Merl

Burbage said:


> I'd be happy to be added, too. Thanks.





FastkeinBrahms said:


> Thanks, happy to be added.


You'll both regret it. This thread is more addictive than coke and will probably cost you more money in the long run. :guitar:


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## calvinpv

Seeing as it will be my turn to present for the upcoming week, is it okay if I introduce two works that have about 4-5 total performances between them to listen to? I know sbmonty presented Langgaard and Holmboe a couple weeks ago, but I don't know if we decided against two works simultaneously for future weeks. If it helps, the two works I have in mind have pretty similar sound worlds, though they come at it from different angles. So I don't plan to pick two random pieces.

Anyways, I'll post an introduction late tonight (eastern standard time) or early tomorrow.


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## Allegro Con Brio

calvinpv said:


> Seeing as it will be my turn to present for the upcoming week, is it okay if I introduce two works that have about 4-5 total performances between them to listen to? I know sbmonty presented Langgaard and Holmboe a couple weeks ago, but I don't know if we decided against two works simultaneously for future weeks. If it helps, the two works I have in mind have pretty similar sound worlds, though they come at it from different angles. So I don't plan to pick two random pieces.
> 
> Anyways, I'll post an introduction late tonight (eastern standard time) or early tomorrow.


I don't at all mind this, but I know some people are a little more against it. Do whatever you see fit! Besides, if anyone doesn't have the time/commitment/desire to listen to two quartets, they can choose one to focus on.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> You'll both regret it. This thread is more addictive than coke and will probably cost you more money in the long run. :guitar:


I don't think that coke is something that jokes should be made about - it is a serious matter. Many of my friends have had to endure huge dental bills, due to misuse in their younger years. I am lucky, I only use it to clean my cutlery once a year (despite what people think, it doesn't have to be coke, it can be any fizzy drink that contains sugar. My friend uses Dr Pepper).


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## Knorf

It's not my thread, but I'm not keen at all on people choosing two quartets for one week.


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> It's not my thread, but I'm not keen at all on people choosing two quartets for one week.


As much as I am loath to do anything to dissuade a fellow CM fan from our passion, I must say I'm with you on this ....


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## Allegro Con Brio

As I said, I personally do not mind someone choosing two quartets, although I admit that I prefer one. But as much as it's important for the nominator to choose what they like, it's also important that we don't cause any undue discord or potential squabbling about the "rules." So perhaps we should formally institute the one-a-week rule. If there is anyone who _objects_ to this possible rule, please voice your concerns!


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## Bwv 1080

I prefer one work as well, but always fair game to expand the discussion to other pieces by the composer or similar SQs


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## calvinpv

So my choice this week is:

Kaija Saariaho: *Nymphéa (Jardin secret III)*, for SQ and live electronics (1987)
(The other quartet was going to be Giacinto Scelsi's 3rd SQ, in case you were interested. I think they make for an interesting pairing. But no need to listen to Scelsi this week.)

I'm going to postpone until tomorrow my introduction that will (hopefully) explain what Saariaho is going after in the work and how to listen to it. But for now, I'll just post the four performances I see on youtube.

I haven't listened to the bottom two videos, but of these first two, I'm definitely a fan of the one by the Meta4 String Quartet (recorded in 2012). The electronic processing really comes alive here and adds 3-dimensional depth to the sound. I think the Kronos recording (recorded in 2004?) suffers in this regard, though it may be a bit better in hearing the inner voices of the quartet writing. I'm not sure why the electronics sound so different. It may be the differences in the acoustic space the quartets recorded in, but another possibility is that Saariaho revised the electronics part in light of the ever-evolving musical technology. In fact, it's not clear at all if the piece in its original 1987 form employed live signal processing or a tape component.

Anyways, here are the videos. For a piece of spectral music such as this, a nice pair of headphones will do you wonders.


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## Helgi

HenryPenfold said:


> I don't think that coke is something that jokes should be made about - it is a serious matter. Many of my friends have had to endure huge dental bills, due to misuse in their younger years. I am lucky, I only use it to clean my cutlery once a year (despite what people think, it doesn't have to be coke, it can be any fizzy drink that contains sugar. My friend uses Dr Pepper).


Was a bit slow on the uptake this morning and thought that "clean my cutlery" was one of those brit euphemisms :lol:

Re: one or two quartets, I also think sticking to one is a good rule. Maybe a poster could include footnote suggestions for further exploration in cases where there are few recordings?

Re: this week's quartet, the adventure continues! Going to see if I can get a half an hour by myself this afternoon to listen.


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## HenryPenfold

Helgi said:


> Was a bit slow on the uptake this morning and thought that "clean my cutlery" was one of those brit euphemisms :lol:
> 
> Re: one or two quartets, I also think sticking to one is a good rule. Maybe a poster could include footnote suggestions for further exploration in cases where there are few recordings?
> 
> Re: this week's quartet, the adventure continues! Going to see if I can get a half an hour by myself this afternoon to listen.


HaHa, we have so many euphemisms, idioms, cliches and the like in British English!

I've listened to the Saariaho Quartet today, and I agree, the adventure continues - a very good choice by calvinpv.

I look forward to getting my ears around it properly, during the course of the week.


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## starthrower

I previewed the first few minutes and it sounds fascinating. I'm going to listen on headphones tonight. I've got Saariaho's Ondine orchestral set but I haven't explored her chamber works other than the beautiful Six Japanese Gardens.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wonderful and interesting choice; Saariaho is one of the contemporary composers that I have taken a fancy to.

*Barring any further objections, the guideline is now official: Nominators may only choose one quartet per week*. They are, of course, free to recommend others in accordance with the theme/style of their chosen work, but I think having the singular focus is one of the great benefits of this thread.


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## starthrower

Here's some discussion about the piece from the excellent Fugue For Thought site.
https://fugueforthought.de/2017/12/30/kaija-saariaho-nymphea/

"…my aim was to broaden the colours of string instruments and create music by contrasting limpid, delicate textures and violent, shattering masses of sound..."


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## Knorf

Cool choice for the Saariaho... Haven't listened to this in ages.


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## calvinpv

I understand this introduction is rather long -- I have a tendency to do that. Feel free to jump to the "how to listen" section at the end, if you want. And feel free to correct me if I got some things wrong or if I'm unclear.

Kaija Saariaho: *Nymphéa (Jardin secret III)*

Saariaho's music -- at least, her music up until the early 90's -- is a good example what you would call spectral music. In a nutshell, spectral music is a approach and attitude towards composition that prioritizes the inner physical properties of sound and their evolution through time, as opposed to foisting an external, abstract form onto the music. In practice, this means: choosing an acoustical system or event to study (real-life or synthetically generated); recording and digitally sampling that system if need be; breaking it down with mathematical analysis of its sound spectra (often with the help of a sound engineer); constructing a new sound model of your choosing that is nevertheless based on this original raw data; and finally either transcribing this new model for traditional instruments to play (called "instrumental synthesis") or transcribing for an electronic medium like tape.

Implied in what I just wrote is the presence of a computer at every stage of the composition process (and even more implicitly, the presence of acoustics as a formal discipline). In fact, spectral music isn't even practical, much less conceivable, until the mid-20th century with the advent of modern computing power, given the sheer amount of data processing involved. Yes, there are some simple spectral models like the natural harmonic series that can be played around with sans computer. And you can get some incredibly beautiful music using nothing but the harmonic series -- like this SQ I was considering for this week. In fact, the harmonic series is sort of implied in the traditional 12-tone equal-tempered chromatic scale (though it's not the same). But you can only do so much with the harmonic series, since it yields a very particular acoustical experience. And using more complicated acoustic models without a computer will take eons to turn into music.

So there must be something fundamentally different about spectral music that distinguishes it from traditional tonal or atonal music, if it took modern technology to make it possible. While I don't know the ins and outs of this music and the corresponding technological systems, I think I can crystallize the difference as this: it's a recognition that every traditional musical parameter -- pitch, rhythm, duration, dynamics, range, tempo, timbre/orchestration, articulation, harmony, texture, form -- can be reduced and collapsed into two more fundamental parameters: the frequency and amplitude (or intensity) of an audio signal, which can both be mapped as continuous functions of time.

That's it. A simple mindset shift, but one with far-reaching consequences. Two consequences immediately come to mind. First, a spectral approach to music will give you a more complete description of a musical event, including a widening of the number of possible values you can assign to each traditional parameter. For example, instead of dealing with a 12-tone division of the octave, you can look at the octave as an infinitely divisible continuum of frequencies, and therefore you can talk about pitch and pitch changes in minute detail.

Second, and more importantly, it exposes the distinctions between traditional parameters as somewhat arbitrary (some being more arbitrary than others). For example, a single pitch on an instrument is, in fact, a composite sine wave made up of many different frequencies of various amplitude levels presented at different times; in plain English, the pitch middle C on the piano is made up of several other pitches with their own dynamic levels and durations. Timbre, harmony, articulation and texture can be described in the exact same way. Duration is nothing but the time a sine wave's amplitude is above a certain threshold, i.e. the time we can hear a sine wave. Rhythm is nothing but a sequence of durations. And if you start introducing results from psychoacoustics, you get some really weird stuff that highlight these artificial boundaries even further. If you make a rhythmic pulse short enough, it will sound like a single pitch; if you have two nearly identical pitches played simultaneously -- which is technically a harmony -- but at different dynamics, you'll hear only one pitch (called "frequency masking"); if you separate those two pitches a bit but not too much, you'll still hear a single pitch but with an internal beat. And so on.

Collapsing the distinction between timbre and harmony, in particular, is probably the most important thing to know when approaching Saariaho's early music (it's also important for Tristan Murail's music; less so for composers like Hugues Dufourt or Horațiu Rădulescu). All of her early works stem from a fundamental question: what are the means by which a musical form is able to develop and unfold? Saariaho noticed that all musical forms involve periods of dynamism and tension moving to and from periods of stasis and stability, with organizational systems used for controlling the rate of change between these two extremes. For example, a period of stasis might be a single pitch or chord getting played over and over while a period of dynamism might be extreme variability of pitch or rapid chord progressions.

These "curves of tension", as Saariaho puts it, can theoretically occur in multiple dimensions, such as pitch, rhythm and loudness, but the most well-known and successful is the traditional tonal system, which controls musical form at the level of pitch with its theories of harmony, with its complex hierarchies of pitch relationships, and with its rules for transforming one pitch into another. And yet, given the advanced state of musical knowledge in the late 20th century, Saariaho believes the tonal system is now too restrictive of an organizational model for musical form and that we should be thinking about more generalized models. One proposal is to reinterpret issues of harmony into the broader issues of timbre, given that both harmony and timbre involve the distribution of frequencies throughout time (or to keep it simple, the distribution of pitch throughout time). Saariaho carries out this proposal by



> "relating the control of timbre with the control of harmony. Initially I began to use the sound/noise axis to develop both musical phrases and larger forms, and thus to create inner tensions in the music. In an abstract and atonal sense, the sound/noise axis may be substituted for the notion of consonance/dissonance. A rough, noisy texture would thus be parallel to dissonance, whilst a smooth, clear texture would correspond to consonance. It is true that noise in the purely physical sense is a form of dissonance pushed to the extreme. At the level of auditory experience, we can compare on the one hand the perception of a tension which is related by the tonic (or by a consonance if the context is not tonal) and, on the other a noisy texture which, while magnifying itself, transforms into pure sounds: one finds a certain analogy here."


This "analogy" approach to connecting harmony and timbre takes on a different form in all of her pieces from the 1980s. It appears in its most extreme form in her experimental work _Vers le blanc_ for tape where timbre and harmony are identical. The piece is a single glissando in the human voice from one three-note "chord" to another three-note "chord" for 15 minutes straight (unclear if there are three human voices or three formant regions of a single voice; there's no recording to verify). Throughout the glissando, Saariaho is constantly modifying the formant regions of the voice so that no extra frequencies sneak into the glissando that would otherwise add that typical breathy quality underlying every voice. The result of this sustained, "non-breathing" voice is that the frequencies in the timbre are nothing but the frequencies in the harmony of the glissando and vice versa. In the locution of the block quote above: harmonic dissonance and timbral noise are exactly the same, harmonic consonance and timbral pure sound are exactly the same.

But there are other, less extreme, examples that simply correlate harmony and timbre as opposed to making them fully identical, though even here, a simple correlation can cause confusion between the two. _Laconisme de l'aile_, for flute and optional electronics, is a great example of this. Even though it's a work for solo instrument, you basically have a two-part counterpoint of sorts where one voice is the typical harmonic progression of the flute and the other voice is the timbral "progression" moving between the pure sounds of normal playing techniques and the pure noise of extended techniques. At moments when the harmony is sustained on a single note but where an extended technique is played, a weird confusion arises where you can't tell if harmonic or timbral development is taking place. It's pretty cool to hear, and it makes me wonder if I ought to approach every solo work in the repertoire this way, if for no other reason than it adds variety to the listening experience.

And then there are examples of pieces, such as _Sah den Vögeln_, _Im Traume_ and _Verblendungen_, that attempt to create an entire network of relationships between several parameters, not just between timbre and harmony, with each parameter having its own course of development oscillating between periods of stasis and dynamism. Admittedly, it's hard to pick up these different developments at once without resorting to a technical explanation; nevertheless, you can still enjoy these pieces on a purely visceral level and get enraptured by their dream-like qualities.

*How to listen*
The reason I've avoided talking about _Nymphéa_ up until now is because I can't find any technical explanation of the piece beyond a couple program notes. So hopefully my explanation of spectralism more generally and of Saariaho's general compositional approach serves as a nice substitute. I do suspect there's a connection between _Nymphéa_ and _Lichtbogen_ (you're not required to listen to _Lichtbogen_, but I highly recommend it, it's one of her best works, imo). The latter work, written only one year previously in 1986, is based on the sound spectrum of three bow strokes on the cello: glissandi from one natural/artificial harmonic to another natural/artificial harmonic, and an increasing of bow pressure from a natural harmonic to a sul tasto on the fingerboard. _Nymphéa_, likewise, "bases itself on the sonority of the cello" as one program note put it, so I'm going to guess that Saariaho uses the same raw material for both pieces. Still, you can clearly a difference in the overarching form. In _Lichtbogen_, there's a clear trajectory from clearer and more pure sounds to grittier and more noisy textures. As if we're hearing a single cello bow stroke stretched out over 16 minutes, which suggests a close identification between timbre and harmony à la _Vers le blanc_. _Nymphéa_, however, sounds more episodic, as if Saariaho wants to explore different facets of the raw cello material in each section. This guess of mine is in line with Saariaho's own program note when she mentions "different interpretations of the same image in different dimensions" (I'll post the program note below).

Anyways, here a few ways to enjoy the piece:

1.If you read the program notes to her pieces and some of her interviews, you'll notice a strong inspiration from art and nature. But she always tells you the inspiration isn't to the point of serving as programmatic content for the music. It only serves as a point of departure. In this case, the title of the piece suggests the plant family Nymphaeaceae, or water lilies, as well as a series of paintings by Claude Monet. But from there, it's up to you. Maybe water lilies evoke a sense of tranquility and elegance and and you want to import that feeling into the music (there is definitely something refined and elegant about the music, even the noisier textures). Or maybe you follow Monet's dozens of water lily paintings and understand the piece as trying to approach the same physical object from different directions in the same way Monet did. Etc.

2.The advice I gave about the Lachenmann SQ several months ago also applies here. While undoubtedly context matters, I think it's safe to say that in certain forms of contemporary music, it's not suitable to have your ears try to parse out the different parts and create a contrapuntal texture reminiscent of traditional tonal music, except maybe in a couple moments in this work where you hear some mirroring effects between lines. By and large, in a spectral work like this, musical lines are chosen because they resonate with other lines in such a way that together a higher-order, multi-faceted texture is created.

3.Given what I've said about Saariaho's use of "curves of tensions", I think some of the best parts of the work are the seamless transitions from extreme volatility to extreme stasis and vice versa. You'll no doubt pick up on the obvious ones between the blankets of harsh noise and the moments of singular pitches. But there are other subtler ones as well, for example, changing uses of vibrato that sometimes swerve into trills, other times into ostinatos.

4.I think when it comes to music such as this, a good pair of headphones is a game changer (unless you just have an amazing surround sound system in your home, which I don't). There's too much detail to be lost if you put some distance between your speakers and your ears. For other works, I'm not too worried about this, but for composers like Saariaho or Lachenmann, thinking about how sound diffuses across an acoustic space is very important, and the place you're sitting in right now as you listen is an acoustic space to account for. But it's up to you. Maybe in your situation, there are better solutions than headphones.

Further reading, if you're interested:
An interview with Saariaho
Saariaho's 1985 article "Shaping a Compositional Network with Computer"
Saariaho's website with links to program notes and occasionally scores (no score for Nymphéa, unfortunately).
The closest thing I could find to a breakdown of the piece is here
This article analyzing _Lichtbogen_ from a phenomenological perspective

Finally, my introduction draws a lot from Saariaho's very interesting 1987 article "Timbre and Harmony: Interpolations of Timbral Structures", but I can't find that one on the internet. Apologies.


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## calvinpv

Saariaho's own Program Note:



> In Nymphéa (Water lily, 1987) for string quartet and electronics, my aim was to broaden the colours of string instruments and create music by contrasting limpid, delicate textures and violent, shattering masses of sound.
> 
> The basis of the harmonic structure is provided by cello sounds that I analysed with the computer, through the use of some personal computer programs. The musical material is going through rhythmic and melodic transformations as the motifs are gradually converted from a trill into arpeggios, or unison rhythms into multilayered micro-polyphony. The electronic component of the piece consists of live transformations of the string quartet's sounds in the concert.
> 
> Some images that evolved in my mind while composing: the symmetric structure of a water lily, yielding as it floats on the water, transforming. Different interpretations of the same image in different dimensions; a one-dimensional surface with its colours, shapes, and, on the other hand, different materials that can be sensed, forms, dimensions, a white water lily feeding from the underwater mud.
> 
> A poem by Arseny Tarkovsky - the cineaste Andrei Tarkovsky's father - also became a part of the sonic material during the composition. It appears gradually, first in separate phonemes whispered by players, adding thus a vocal color to the palette of string sounds:
> 
> Now Summer is gone
> And might never have been.
> In the sunshine it's warm,
> But there has to be more.
> 
> It all came to pass,
> All fell into my hands
> Like a five-petalled leaf,
> But there has to be more.
> 
> Nothing evil was lost,
> Nothing good was in vain,
> All ablaze with clear light
> But there has to be more.
> 
> Life gathered me up
> Safe under it's wing,
> My luck always held,
> But there has to be more.
> 
> Not a leaf was burned up
> Not a twig ever snapped
> Clean as glass is the day
> But there has to be more.


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## StevehamNY

Calvinpw, very much enjoying the Saariaho! One thing that strikes me, having followed jazz music all the way past its signposted boundaries and into the "free improv" wilderness... you sorta end up in the same zip code you might have found if you had started the same journey from modern classical. I hear sonic echoes of Evan Parker's Electro-Acoustic Ensemble in this piece, a group that included the violinist Philipp Wachsmann. 

(Not a coincidence that Wachsmann grew up in the classical tradition, studying with the likes of Boulez. You see the same crossover in many free improv players, especially in Europe. Also not a coincidence that certain music labels like Switzerland's HatHut deal exclusively in either free improv and modern classical.) 

(And of course there's a whole separate discussion to be had on improvisation vs. composition, but it would have to allow for the argument that Mozart might have been the best improvisor of all time!)

If you really want to let this music have its way with you, put on your headphones as you start to drift off to sleep. Your critical defenses will be down and the music will infect your dreams! Thanks again!


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## Bwv 1080

Cool piece - the sampled cello makes the electronics more organic and subtle compared to the Tristan Murail pieces I am familiar with. Spectral to me is an evolution of the late 60s textural music of Ligeti, Xenakis, Penderecki etc., moving beyond tone clusters to acoustically inspired pitch material. This piece does sounds more or less conventionally tuned to me, unlike some of Murail's work which often is based upon very high (sometimes >30), out of tune partials (see below), this of course is easier to do with electronics than real performers


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## starthrower

I enjoyed the Meta4 recording. The Kronos version featured some less attractive sounds.


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## ELbowe

My initial search online produced five recordings; I think. I played two back to back and wondered if they were in fact the same piece? I knew watching from the shrubbery on this forum would be interesting and the Schoenberg a few weeks ago was a wonderful challenge…this weeks assignment makes that piece look like it was composed by the Waltz King! 
Onward and Upward!! 
Kronos Quartet
Meta4
LA Phil 
Cikada String Quartet
The Guastalla Quartet


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## Allegro Con Brio

I knew that this would be a “challenge” selection for me, as is a good deal of contemporary music, but also because I have not responded well to almost all electronic music I have heard. “Challenge” to me is not at all negative, it allows me to open my ears to different styles of composition and really focus in on different, adventurous aesthetics that expand my mind. Saariaho is one of those composers who I often turn to whenever I feel like a “challenge” listen, along with such as Boulez, Gubaidulina, and Ligeti. I really have to be in a certain mood to respond to it, but when I am I feel like I can really “plug in” and receive a unique experience entering into a world of previously undiscovered colors and sonorities.

And I must say that I probably liked this piece better than any other electronic piece I have heard. Unlike some other contemporary music that I feel is very “jumpy” and disconnected, Saariaho has a gift for unifying every gesture into a cohesive whole. It sounds like a continuous dreamscape with smoothly integrated contrasts, and there was plenty of interest to sustain the whole piece. And the electronic sounds, at least in the video that calvinpv linked, actually sounded quite mellow and relaxing. I hear it as the natural heir of Debussy's symbolism/impressionism, with a little bit of second Viennese school as well. I think this would make an excellent soft introduction to this kind of music for anyone interested in it. Thanks for an excellent choice, Calvin!


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## Carmina Banana

Calvinpv, thank you so much for this selection and all of the info (it was long, but it was all very informative and helpful). I am listening a lot, reading and gathering whatever info I can about Saariaho. There is a nearly two hour lecture by her on youtube and I have been working my way through that. 
Before I say much about my take on this piece, does anyone have any knowledge about how the electronics are being integrated during the performance? My best guess is that the quartet's sounds are being processed in real time. This might account for differences in the recordings--since the performers, acoustics, etc. is different, the electronics could be a very different result. Also, I notice that one quartet has a pair of speakers facing the audience, but no visible stage monitors for themselves. If they were responding to a recorded track, it seems like that would be very important. But, I also don't see a laptop on stage or cables leading to an offstage laptop.


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## calvinpv

Carmina Banana said:


> Calvinpv, thank you so much for this selection and all of the info (it was long, but it was all very informative and helpful). I am listening a lot, reading and gathering whatever info I can about Saariaho. There is a nearly two hour lecture by her on youtube and I have been working my way through that.
> Before I say much about my take on this piece, does anyone have any knowledge about how the electronics are being integrated during the performance? My best guess is that the quartet's sounds are being processed in real time. This might account for differences in the recordings--since the performers, acoustics, etc. is different, the electronics could be a very different result. Also, I notice that one quartet has a pair of speakers facing the audience, but no visible stage monitors for themselves. If they were responding to a recorded track, it seems like that would be very important. But, I also don't see a laptop on stage or cables leading to an offstage laptop.


Not being a professional musician myself, I have no experience as to what's normal practice for speaker/microphone/mixing station placement. But I am noticing a microphone in front of the cellist (and only the cellist) in the last video, and I think that's a microphone behind the cellist in the second to last video (which I think is the one you're not seeing cables go offstage; I agree, seems weird). Since this work is based on the sound spectrum of the cello, it would make sense if the live electronics only captured information from the cello. So those microphones tell me it's live electronics. And I'm pretty sure both of the commercial recordings are as well.


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## calvinpv

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I knew that this would be a "challenge" selection for me, as is a good deal of contemporary music, but also because I have not responded well to almost all electronic music I have heard. "Challenge" to me is not at all negative, it allows me to open my ears to different styles of composition and really focus in on different, adventurous aesthetics that expand my mind. Saariaho is one of those composers who I often turn to whenever I feel like a "challenge" listen, along with such as Boulez, Gubaidulina, and Ligeti. I really have to be in a certain mood to respond to it, but when I am I feel like I can really "plug in" and receive a unique experience entering into a world of previously undiscovered colors and sonorities.
> 
> And I must say that I probably liked this piece better than any other electronic piece I have heard. Unlike some other contemporary music that I feel is very "jumpy" and disconnected, Saariaho has a gift for unifying every gesture into a cohesive whole. It sounds like a continuous dreamscape with smoothly integrated contrasts, and there was plenty of interest to sustain the whole piece. And the electronic sounds, at least in the video that calvinpv linked, actually sounded quite mellow and relaxing. I hear it as the natural heir of Debussy's symbolism/impressionism, with a little bit of second Viennese school as well. I think this would make an excellent soft introduction to this kind of music for anyone interested in it. Thanks for an excellent choice, Calvin!


I think Saariaho in general makes for an excellent introduction to electronic music. Her electronics are so silky smooth and the transitions so seamless that you really are convinced it comes from the instruments. Admittedly, her electronics are probably a bit simpler than the electronics of other composers which may explain why it's so smooth, but hey, sometimes simpler is better.

You now ought to check out Lichtbogen, which also uses electronics, but is inspired by the Northern Lights. Very evocative work:


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## FastkeinBrahms

In the meantime, I listened to this piece twice with Meta4, and one time each to the Kronos and Cicada recordings. One thing that strikes me above all is the fact that you cannot not listen to this music. At least my mind hardly wandered during the performances. This surely has to do with the unfamiliarity of the music to me and the absence of repetition of recognizable tonal motifs. But there is more to that: This is an almost addictive piece. I just love the stuttering downward sound waves at around minute four, done most convincingly by Kronos with their quite rough and direct Cello-heavy approach. And the solo violin towards the end is incredibly beautiful. In fact, I did not believe this elegiac beauty to be possible in atonal and even spectral music. In this passage, nothing beats the Meta4 performance, the first violin is heavenly.

I enjoyed all three recordings. The Cicada appears to have most fun with the piece, I also like their slightly more forward approach with the spoken parts; one can even discern some individual words. Meta4 take considerably longer than the other two. They take a really long break after app. 12 minutes. Actually, the first time I listened, I thought the piece had ended and was surprised how the composer could make 20 minutes pass so quickly. Kronos are very direct, almost brash. The Cello plays four or five short beating low notes somewhere between minutes four to six, which gives the music an interesting structure at this point. This almost disappears in the Meta4 recording, and is taken much more softly by Cicada. 

A facinating and rewarding listen! However, I must say that it does not bring a garden to my mind, rather a jagged icy arctic icescape, especially in the second half.


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## calvinpv

StevehamNY said:


> Calvinpw, very much enjoying the Saariaho! One thing that strikes me, having followed jazz music all the way past its signposted boundaries and into the "free improv" wilderness... you sorta end up in the same zip code you might have found if you had started the same journey from modern classical. I hear sonic echoes of Evan Parker's Electro-Acoustic Ensemble in this piece, a group that included the violinist Philipp Wachsmann.
> 
> (Not a coincidence that Wachsmann grew up in the classical tradition, studying with the likes of Boulez. You see the same crossover in many free improv players, especially in Europe. Also not a coincidence that certain music labels like Switzerland's HatHut deal exclusively in either free improv and modern classical.)
> 
> (And of course there's a whole separate discussion to be had on improvisation vs. composition, but it would have to allow for the argument that Mozart might have been the best improvisor of all time!)
> 
> If you really want to let this music have its way with you, put on your headphones as you start to drift off to sleep. Your critical defenses will be down and the music will infect your dreams! Thanks again!


I am embarrassingly ignorant about jazz and is something I need to fix. But right now I'm listening to a live performance of Evan Parker's ensemble on youtube and holy cow! You're absolutely right, that comes dangerously close to the more improvisational aspects of contemporary classical. I had no idea that's where jazz is today.

But you know who it reminds of? Less of Saariaho, except in the quieter sections, and more Wolfgang Mitterer. You should check out Mitterer's _coloured noise_ and _Little Smile_. _coloured noise_ in particular is a fabulous work.


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## calvinpv

Bwv 1080 said:


> Cool piece - the sampled cello makes the electronics more organic and subtle compared to the Tristan Murail pieces I am familiar with. Spectral to me is an evolution of the late 60s textural music of Ligeti, Xenakis, Penderecki etc., moving beyond tone clusters to acoustically inspired pitch material. This piece does sounds more or less conventionally tuned to me, unlike some of Murail's work which often is based upon very high (sometimes >30), out of tune partials (see below), this of course is easier to do with electronics than real performers


You ought to hear Horațiu Rădulescu's 4th SQ. If I remember the liner notes correctly, there are harmonic partials >60. Granted, that means an extremely low fundamental to fit them all in. But still, I'm not even sure how that works. I'm no string musician, but I feel like there's only so much space on a vibrating string before issues of accuracy kick in.


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## Carmina Banana

There are so many things to comment on with this piece and these performances. Unfortunately, I also have to work for a living. 
Let me just say that my favorite listening experience right now involves the Kronos recording. The stereo width allows for a lot more separation of sound. You could make a case for the meta4 recording because it is more blended and maybe more organic sounding for that reason. But I love hearing the sounds panning from right to left along with all of the timbre changes. It is delightful to hear.
I do think there is some kind of live processing going on and that accounts for the difference in sound. Of the two live performances, one seems like there is barely have any electronic sounds in the mix while the other one has it in your face from the beginning. 
The integration of electronics, as I think the composer intended, is ingeniously subtle and very different from many other works. I think because it is coming *from* the acoustics sounds, it strikes us as an intensification of the quartet's sound rather than adding a completely foreign element. A good example is the aggressive scratch tone sections that become like a cloud of lingering distortion. I wonder about the last cello gesture. On the studio recordings you hear this wonderful effect of cycling through some upper harmonics. That must be an electronically enhanced moment?


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## StevehamNY

calvinpv said:


> I am embarrassingly ignorant about jazz and is something I need to fix. But right now I'm listening to a live performance of Evan Parker's ensemble on youtube and holy cow! You're absolutely right, that comes dangerously close to the more improvisational aspects of contemporary classical. I had no idea that's where jazz is today.
> 
> But you know who it reminds of? Less of Saariaho, except in the quieter sections, and more Wolfgang Mitterer. You should check out Mitterer's _coloured noise_ and _Little Smile_. _coloured noise_ in particular is a fabulous work.


Glad you hear the similarity, too! So I'm not crazy. (Or at least, not in this context.) It's funny, though, because I'm not even sure if I'd say this is where jazz is today as much as I'd just call this music a distant remnant. For me, jazz lost its center of gravity around 1970 (Coltrane dies in 1967, Miles goes electric in 1969, Albert Ayler dies in 1970), and "free improv" took on its own new direction. (And you had to go to Europe, Chicago, or downtown New York City to hear it.)

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up on Mitterer! Checking him out right now.


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## Carmina Banana

So many things to listen to! I really appreciate all of the other pieces mentioned and I am putting them on my list, but also trying to hear more Saariaho. 
I can see the connection to experimental jazz improv. I have heard some things that approach this, but without the strong focus on timbre Saariaho has. I would like to suggest that, while very different on the surface, the minimalist movement asked similar things from the listener. By subverting our rules of how harmony and melody function in regard to time, it forced us to listen to other elements. Saariaho is taking this a step further, by forcing us to examine sound itself. Or something like that. Also, just to throw in something from left field, I have heard the composer mention the transition between what we hear as pitches as compared to noise. That seems to be a theme for her. While 20th century "serious" composers were experimenting this, there was also a genre that incorporated noise by electronic means: rock and roll. 
Finally, I think it would be fun to compare our current quartet with what came before it. Pleyel vs. Saariaho, anyone?


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## ELbowe

This is slightly embarrassing but instructive; at least for myself! Yesterday by sheer accident I thought I was listening to our assignment and didn’t realise it had ended and recording was onto Saariaho’s “Lichtbogen” and then…”Sah Den Vögeln” both of which I really enjoyed...!! I went back to our designated quartet and found I appreciated it more than I had previously (at least once a day for past three days…with nominal headway!). Interesting how things progress aurally!


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## Carmina Banana

Just listened to Lichtbogen with my morning coffee. I heard her playing a little more with melodic fragments. There is a little of that in the SQ but in general our attention is directed towards other things. In particular I heard some scale passages exchanged between instruments that reminds of Joan Tower. 
Here is an observation, nothing profound but it seems really important: there is rarely a note that is simply sustained on an instrument. When it does happen, like in the middle of Lichtbogen, we really notice it. Usually, the sound is excited or altered from it's pure state by trills, temolos, extended techniques. Then of course, there are the electronics. The result is a world that is constantly changing like a kaleidoscope.


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## calvinpv

Just revisited the Kronos recording and just listened to the Adastra live performance for the first time. A couple things I liked in the Kronos were 1. I can actually hear the words of the poem towards the end (I'm still not sure if the poem is really needed) and 2. there is a slight grainy texture to the electronics that adds a bit of color. But overall I think both the Kronos and the Adastra are a bit timid in their use of electronics as a means of blending the sonorities together. And as a result, their interpretations sound pretty "dry", especially in the first half of the work. Meta4 seems to get this and they embrace the electronics, letting it just wash over the quartet like a tidal wave. And while there can be such a thing as too much electronics in a work, I think in this case I prefer more than less because, to be honest, I don't find the underlying quartet writing all that interesting except in a few places.

Anyways, I'll listen to the Guastalla live performance tomorrow. And then as a nice treat for myself, listen to Saariaho's most recent opera _Only the Sound Remains_ on DVD, which I recently bought. 



calvinpv said:


> Not being a professional musician myself, I have no experience as to what's normal practice for speaker/microphone/mixing station placement. But I am noticing a microphone in front of the cellist (and only the cellist) in the last video, and I think that's a microphone behind the cellist in the second to last video (which I think is the one you're not seeing cables go offstage; I agree, seems weird). Since this work is based on the sound spectrum of the cello, it would make sense if the live electronics only captured information from the cello. So those microphones tell me it's live electronics. And I'm pretty sure both of the commercial recordings are as well.


Oh, and I'm clearly wrong in what I wrote here. While the electronics are definitely live, all the instruments have microphones in the Adastra performance, I don't know how I missed the others.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

That was so much fun to listen to! Calvinpv really delivered on this one. That introduction also helped get me into the right frame of mind for the listening experience. It's interesting to reframe your perspective into viewing timbre in its whole, raw form as the centrifugal force of the music. I was struck by the beauty of even just singular, isolated lines by themselves because they contain so much color and vibrant, rich frequencies. I wish I could see this live so I could hear the richness of the piece's frequencies at their fullest depth. Saariaho captures a variety of moods that range from being ethereal and serene to really tense and explosive (those "curves of tension" Calvinpv mentioned in the intro), like the fabric of the sound itself is about to rip at the seams. The voices added an interesting effect. The first word that comes to mind when describing the piece is "surreal" but that still seems woefully lacking. Perhaps surreal because the images she conjures up are so unlike anything your brain knows how to process. The pieces I've heard by her always remind me of traveling through space and being at mercy of the raw forces of the universe that are totally indifferent to you.

This has definitely piqued my interest in exploring electronic and spectral music, and delving into Saariaho more, she's really growing on me. She's the best composer I've heard so far, in my limited sampling of electro-acoustic music, at actually putting it to _music_. I'm going to listen to some of the other performances and try it on speakers next time as well. I was listening to it on my headphones, as recommended, but I don't like to crank it up too much for the sake of my hearing. Speakers might capture more depth to the frequencies more, even though Calvinpv recommended headphones as speakers put too much space between the listener and the music. All in all, great reccomendation!


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Iota:* If you're still with us, it's your turn this week. If not, we'll go to *Malx.*

Updated schedule:

Iota
Malx
Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage


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## Iota

Hi, yes am still dropping in from time to time and enjoying reading it. I knew my turn was coming up, but am slightly out of the rhythm of this sort of thing for now, so will remain as a non-contributor for the time being. But thanks for asking.

Plenty of interesting quartets coming up though .. and an excellent Pavel Haas recommendation for the Prokofiev 2 a while back, Merl!


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## ELbowe

Calvinpv! many thanks for this selection and all of the information. My initial reaction was bewilderment which is not uncommon for me in this thread but over a week of listening to the piece and to the composers other works (some by accident) I exit the week well edified (Meta4...was my favourite for the assigned piece) and now have this CD in my "wish" basket!! Thanks again!


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## ELbowe

Please excuse if this has been highlighted elsewhere:
From the BBC's knowledgeable presenter Tom Service:
(for The Guardian)
Mon 9 Jul 2012 
All composers are dreamers. But very few have dared to dream sonic images of such magnetic power as those that Finnish composer Kaija Saariaho has conjured in her music for ensembles, orchestra, opera houses, electronics and soloists. That's true for pretty much every piece Saariaho has written, whether it's one of her luminous but inescapably dramatic operas, such as L'Amour de loin or Adriana Mater, or her orchestral sound- and cosmos-scapes such as Orion, or her chamber and ensemble works such as Nymphéa and Lichtbogen. To journey into Saariaho's music is to be confronted with the darkest and most dazzling dimensions of your subconscious, and glimpses of the existential journeys she has made to find these pieces.
And yet, for all of power and immediacy of her music, the journey to this soundworld has not been easy. Saariaho, who's 60 this year, has spoken of growing up in Finland in a family "without any kind of cultural background". Her father worked in the metal industry, her mother looked after the three children, and yet this unpromising ground would be catalysed by the spark of music. "I was very sensitive," she says. "There was some music that frightened me, and some that I liked. We had an old-fashioned radio at home, so I listened to music on that. But I also heard music when I was a girl that didn't come from a radio." Saariaho then reveals something that shows how her sensitivity to music was already tied up with the idea of a heightened reality, and with her own invention. This music that "didn't come from a radio" was music "that was in my mind. I imagined that it came from my pillow. My mother remembered me asking her to turn the pillow off at night when I couldn't sleep; to turn off the music that I imagined inside my head."

Studying with composer Paavo Heininen at the Sibelius Academy in Helsinki was the fulfilment of the young Saariaho's ambition, but it only came about because of her self-belief and stubbornness. She remembers meeting her future teacher, and that even though there was no room on Heininen's composition course, "I had decided that I would not leave the room until he had taken me. I was crazy, but I knew I could not leave the room. He tried to say many times there was no room for me – but finally he had no choice. I became his pupil." The academy also confronted her with the realities of life as a composer. And especially as a composer who was not male. In the early 1970s, Saariaho was the only woman in the class. "There were some teachers who actually would not teach me, because they thought it was a waste of time. 'You're a pretty girl, what are you doing here?' That sort of thing ... My femininity was so apparent, so unavoidable."
But Saariaho was a composer, from the start, who knew what she wanted to do, to feel, and to make in her music. And she knew what her music would not be as well. There was pressure from the academy to conform to more conventional archetypes of modernism, and subsequently, when she studied with Brian Ferneyhough in Freiburg she experienced the aridity of what she thought of as the over-systemisation of some species of contemporary composition – "all of that complexity, and for what aural result?", she says. Yet she had found one possible escape from those modernist diktats in the work of Gérard Grisey and Tristan Murail, the French spectralists who were investigating the harmonic potential of the overtone series, creating a more intuitive musical space that chimed with Saariaho's compositional instincts.
And it was a French institution that finally sealed Saariaho's flight from her homeland in the early 1980s: the underground labyrinth of electronic and electro-acoustic experimentation, IRCAM, underneath the Pompidou Centre. There she discovered the computer technology that would allow her to realise the sonic phenomena she heard in her personal musical universe. The pieces that resulted, like Verblendungen and especially Lichtbogen ("a piece I can approve", as this most self-critical composer describes it, "it's breathing music") opened up new possibilities for the way acoustic instruments and the computer technology of the mid 1980s might work together. Saariaho's stroke of brilliance and imagination in these pieces is to make the connections between the live musicians and the other world of the tape and electronic sounds as seamless as possible. The "breathing" of Lichtbogen applies just as much to the electronics as it does to the ensemble's music, and above all to the immediate, sensual impact of the whole work.
The brilliance of her works that fuse electronics with instruments is the way they melt the divisions between both worlds. The electronics become a halo around the instruments, amplifying their sonic palette yet indivisible from them. Your ears are seamlessly taken into another realm, a place that's both ethereal in its sheer, rarefied beauty yet grounded in the real world of instruments and voices.
Having immersed herself in the possibilities of electronics, Saariaho can now create the same uncanny effect of distance and transcendence using only an un-adulterated acoustic orchestra, as in her recent Orion; imagining and realising sounds you didn't think the orchestra could make.
Saariaho's music since then has not compromised the techniques it uses, whether electronically or acoustically, in order to serve the private yet grand passions her work describes. Her operas especially explore the big themes of war, of love, of existence; and each has created a new sonic universe to do so. But for all the change in her life and her career, and the largest possible scale of orchestral and operatic music that she now often works in, there's something in Saariaho that remains of that sensitive and dreaming child, the fundamental desire to realise her ever-mysterious musical visions. But that's a process that involves making the private, public; that necessitates revealing to the world the most delicate areas of experience and contemplation. Talking about her most recent opera, Emilie, composed for the solo voice and solo persona of Karita Mattila, who is alone on stage for all 90 minutes of the piece, she says: "It's always the inner space that interests me." She adds: "It's very private: everything is happening in this woman's mind during one night when she's working. Like all of my operas, it should have the effect of being fundamentally private music, music that I want to communicate with the inner world of my listeners, just as it expresses my inner imagination." In so doing, Saariaho has given her audiences – and given late 20th and early 21st century music as a whole – some of the most luminous, beguiling and sheerly sensual experiences they can hope to have.
Five key links
Verblendungen
Saariaho's first professional work is a dazzling blend of acoustic and electronics.
Orion
Saariaho conjures a cosmos from the orchestra.
Du Cristal … à la fumée
An orchestral diptych based on the transformation of timbres and colours ("from crystal ... into smoke"); 40 minutes of orchestral astonishment.
Saariaho in interview
On Laterna Magica, the piece that receives its UK premiere at the Proms on 17 July.
L'Amour de loin
Saariaho's first opera, still one of her most darkly seductive and communicative pieces; this is the Grammy-winning recording from Kent Nagano and the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester.


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## Burbage

I guess I should write something, having listened to this six or seven times. Of the four YouTube versions offered, I thought the Adastra's performance suited it best, but not entirely sure why. It may simply be the timbre of their specific instruments fits my ears better (four microphones are used, one for each instrumentalist).

Unlike last week's Pleyel, this isn't a 'conversation' piece, but a demonstration, and so demands a time and a space and an audience, I think. I'm not sure a recording can quite do it justice.

The music held my interest, in a subtly different way each time. Though I did wonder whether there's much difference between the geometries of lilies and underground car-parks, and whether a sound engineer counts as a performer (Harrington of the Kronos wasn't entirely clear on that). I also wondered, more briefly, if we'd rejected two quartets on purpose just to go for a quintet by accident. Not wishing to brand Schoenberg as a smuggler of supernumerary sopranos, I left my wonderings there.

Like others, I have no clear idea what the electronics are up to, to the point that I was briefly tempted to download them. Technical instructions are online, and it is possible for a performer to operate the electronics by foot-pedal, which eased my numerical qualms, if not the instrumental ones. They do enhance the texture, though, presumably in ways that couldn't be done with another player (or an offstage quintet). At my age, though, my ears won't detect anything much above 12kHz, so some of it might have passed me by.

So, there's a piece I probably won't listen to again, unless it's on a concert programme. It was interesting, and engaging and musical and playful, and I'm glad it was chosen, but it's a piece better performed than curated. I have, incidentally, since listened to "Terra Memoriam", Saariaho's less disputable quartet, which the Eclipse Quartet have on YouTube somewhere. But I'm sure we'll get round to that in the years to come, so I'll keep my counsel for now.


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## Malx

Before making my choice I'll apologise to calvinpv for not having listened to his choice of quartet, one I was looking forward to, as I enjoy Saariaho's orchestral works.
Unfortunately we got word last week that my brother-in-law has been diagosed with further cancers which currently has him in a precarious position - my listening this past week, and I suspect this week to come, was of the kind that didn't require too much concentration and thought.

My Choice:

*Weinberg String Quartet No 6*

A selfish choice in a way as I am currently spending time trying to get to know Weinberg's Quartet output and I am interested to know what others think of this piece.
Weinberg composed his Quartets almost in parallel with his compatriot Shostakovich under the watchful eyes and ears of the Soviet authorities which meant that this particular piece written in 1946 was added to the list of pieces banned under the wonderful 'anti-formalist' campaign run by Andrey Zhdanov - fortunately the ban was lifted fairly soon after but it did mean Weinberg took a break writing Quartets for nine years. With that in mind for me this Quartet represents the cumulation of his first phase of quartet compostion and as such is an important work.
The work is fairly substantial in six movements - but for this listener it doesn't outstay its welcome and each movement sits well beside the others.

Merl will be happy as I don't believe there are too many recordings of the piece - although he may prove me wrong.

I hope you all enjoy the selection.


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## HenryPenfold

Regarding the Saariaho, I found it an amazing work that is outside the 'normal zone' with the electronics adding a beautiful timbral perspective, not possible from acoustic instruments, developing fascinating textures that are perfectly absorbed into the overall fabric of the music. A very successful use of live electronics (which is not always the case). I have not been able to fully absorb the work yet, and will make sure that I return to it to properly get my ears around it. Like some have said, the Meta4 seem to be most able to meld the electronics into the piece and I may well purchase a download of their disc.

This quartet has caused me to listen to some of the Saariaho recordings that I have in my collection (mainly orchestral), including "Nymphéa" performed by the Cikada Quartet, another excellent composition from this captivating composer.


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## Merl

Like Malx, apologies for my semi-radio silence this week. Work has been hard and stressful and I really wasn't in the mood for the Saariaho SQ (I did listen but it didn't resonate) so I'll leave it till I've got some time off and give it the time it deserves then. Interesting choice though. Calvin. 

As far as Weinberg (thanks for picking a seldom recorded one Malx, I've got another busy week ahead) is concerned it's a SQ I know but don't listen to enough, even though I have both of the available recordings by the Quatuor Danel and the Pacifica Quartet. That I know of there's no other available recordings but the Silesian quartet have recorded roughly half of the 17 quartets and were supposedly going to complete their excellent cycle by this year but it looks like plans have been shelved (covid probably hasn't helped). Btw, if you get a chance check out the Arcadia's tremendous Weinberg SQs disc on Chandos. Nice choice Malx


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> My Choice:
> 
> *Weinberg String Quartet No 6*
> 
> A selfish choice in a way as I am currently spending time trying to get to know Weinberg's Quartet output and I am interested to know what others think of this piece.
> Weinberg composed his Quartets almost in parallel with his compatriot Shostakovich under the watchful eyes and ears of the Soviet authorities which meant that this particular piece written in 1946 was added to the list of pieces banned under the wonderful 'anti-formalist' campaign run by Andrey Zhdanov - fortunately the ban was lifted fairly soon after but it did mean Weinberg took a break writing Quartets for nine years. With that in mind for me this Quartet represents the cumulation of his first phase of quartet compostion and as such is an important work.
> The work is fairly substantial in six movements - but for this listener it doesn't outstay its welcome and each movement sits well beside the others.
> 
> Merl will be happy as I don't believe there are too many recordings of the piece - although he may prove me wrong.
> 
> I hope you all enjoy the selection.


An excellent choice, as far as I'm concerned.

I only have the *Pacifica Quartet* recording that came with the DSCH 'Soviet Experience' box set, and the *Quatuor Danel*.


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> An excellent choice, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I only have the *Pacifica Quartet* recording that came with the DSCH 'Soviet Experience' box set, and the *Quatuor Danel*.


I believe those are the only two recordings available Henry - unless someone knows differently.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> I believe those are the only two recordings available Henry - unless someone knows differently.


Ive spent half an hour scouring on t'internet and they're the only 2 I could find. Just listened to the Danel recording whilst ironing my shirts for work. They play it very well indeed but, if I recall, the Pacificas give it more clout. I'll have a listen to that one in a bit. I only came to the Weinberg SQs about a year and a half, or so, ago so they're still fairly new works to me, even if I do have them on the HD.. There's only so much time to listen to music!


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## Malx

^
There's always the remote chance of there being an obscure 50's recording by the Kremlin Quartet recorded live in a yurt somewhere in Kyrgyzstan that no one in the west knows about - but other than that I couldn't find another one either.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Malx - So sorry to hear about your brother-in-law; sending my best regards.

Weinberg is one of those composers that has been on my radar for forever but who I keep avoiding for some reason, this week will be a great chance to remedy that. Excellent choice!


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## FastkeinBrahms

The Pacifica recording of the Weinberg 6 is added to their complete Shostakovich cycle and I found that my preferred CD dealer has a super inexpensive offer for the 8 CD set, so I ordered it. I really liked their performance of the Shulamit Ran quartet. I hope it arrives in time for this discussion, otherwise, Spotify will have to do. Never listened to any Weinberg before and looking forward to it.


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## starthrower

I made a mental note a couple of months ago to listen to some Weinberg so Malx has now given me a piece to start with. I've read some complementary posts about his quartets at this forum. Wishing peace and comfort to your brother in law and family.


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## StevehamNY

Maix, thank you for choosing the Weinberg #6, a quartet that I literally just listened to last night before going to bed. (It was #4, #5, #6 and then I was asleep! How amazing to wake up and see your choice!) 

I'll try to restrain myself here, but these last twelve months have really been the year of the string quartet for me, the Haydn's offering such joy and sanity and others like the Weinberg's reminding me that we all share the same humanity, especially in times of great sadness. It's impossible to separate the music from the maker in a piece like this, knowing Weinberg's own personal history. How do you keep creating such beautiful music when your entire family has been taken from you? And as I say that, I know that you're experiencing your own worries and sorrow now, Maix, and I'll just join the others here in wishing you and your family much peace and strength.

And thank you again for choosing this piece.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here's a nice little analysis of the quartet, from a blog entirely dedicated to Weinberg!


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## starthrower

Has anybody been listening to the Pacifica recording of this Weinberg quartet? A pretty exciting performance of this piece which I find highly engaging. Seems crazy that nobody played or recorded this piece for decades.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Has anybody been listening to the Pacifica recording of this Weinberg quartet? A pretty exciting performance of this piece which I find highly engaging. Seems crazy that nobody played or recorded this piece for decades.


Yes, and it's miles better than the Danel recording. The Danel cycle is good but I wish the Pacificas had recorded the set. They're so much better in this one.


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## Helgi

I have, and I agree that it's very good. I've had that Soviet Experience collection on various wish lists for months and months, think it's time to get a copy.

I'm enjoying the Weinberg and it's exactly the sort of thing I like tackling in this way, in that I immediately enjoy different parts of it but the whole is still outside my grasp. So I'm looking forward to seeing it take shape in my head over the course of the week.


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## StevehamNY

starthrower said:


> Has anybody been listening to the Pacifica recording of this Weinberg quartet? A pretty exciting performance of this piece which I find highly engaging. Seems crazy that nobody played or recorded this piece for decades.


It was the Danels who actually debuted this piece in 2007, correct? That's mind-blowing on its own.

But as perfectly played as the Pacifica recording is... did you ever imprint on a certain recording and love it beyond all rational explanation even as you recognized its imperfections? (This is on top of the fact that, as the only quartet in the world who has recorded all of them, they've already earned a soft spot in my heart for that alone.)

Related question: All the huffing and snuffling, that's more the mic placement than the players' fault, right? This drove me crazy for so long, until it finally just didn't. I still can't stand the recorded sound of someone coughing in a live audience, but for some reason I almost bizarrely enjoy hearing the players breathing a little too hard now, like they're really working hard up there. Like it somehow makes the whole thing sound that much more human.

(Okay, maybe that's just me...)


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## starthrower

I think we all have those imprinted first impressions in our brains. But as I've grown older I'm not attached to them anymore. As far as the sound goes, I'm not too crazy about very closely mic'd recordings. I'd rather hear some resonance and the sound in the room than listen to the musicians breathing. I don't mind a few coughs here or there on live recordings. I like the human element from any angle as opposed to some "perfect" document.


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## Carmina Banana

I think there is a good chance that breathing sounds are more to do with the musicians than the recording engineer. Some ensembles use breath as a way of unifying the ensemble more than others. I remember one quartet recital in particular (don't remember who it was) in which the group was super loud! There would be no way to get rid of that in a recording. It is a very organic and healthy way for musicians play, but can be distracting.


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## Carmina Banana

I have listened to this a couple of times and each time I hear a lick from the Shostakovich Cello Concerto (#1). Later in this piece there is another part that reminds me of it as well. Yet, the Shostakovich was written later than the Weinberg. So if it is a case of borrowing, it would be on the part of Shostakovich. 
The most striking similarity is about 30 seconds into the 2nd movement of the Weinberg. I guess it is just coincidence?


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## Merl

I get what you mean about the coughs, CB. I dont mind a bit of noisy breathing in chamber pieces as long as it doesn't sound like an asthmatic convention. Recordings that sound like a coughing contest at a smokers convention, however, properly pi$$ me off.


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## FastkeinBrahms

My Soviet experience box with the Pacifica recording arrived today and I just listened to it after having listened to the Danels recording two days ago.

First of all, I must take my hat off to this sheer act of musical bravery in Stalin's empire in 1946. Next to nothing to please the toiling masses and what little there is, for example in the Moderato Comodo, is interspersed by craziness or sarcasm such as the Childrens Song - like line almost at the end of the final movement.

This is an extremely rich and complex work, which I greatly enjoyed. I like both recordings, although I find the Pacifica does a more convinging job with the first movement, which I find problematic anyway. Idea follows after idea but hardly anything is developed. It seems the composer wants to tell a story (a sad one) but does not manage to put the pieces together.

All the other movements are great. The second one reminds me most of Shostakovich with its great rhythmic drive, the short third one reminded me of the final Allegro of the C sharp minor quartet by Beethoven, and the Pacifica violin just dies with the final note, very poignant. The final movement in parts sounds like a Spanish dance to me.

A great discovery, thank you, Malx.


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## Allegro Con Brio

A great discovery indeed. I love the variety of techniques and ideas that Weinberg pours into the work while still giving it a strong sense of overarching unity and allowing for some particularly memorable moments (those haunting harmonics at the end of the fifth movement come to mind). Yes, the musical language is very Shostakovichian (yikes, that’s a thorny frankenword - maybe “Shostian”) but I have no problem with that; there were really no boring moments for me. Carmina Banana pointed out a recurring motif that I also noticed reminiscent of Shosty’s first cello concerto, but actually the part that reminded me most of Shosty was the central slow passacaglia. But enough with the comparisons, I think it can stand well on its own. In fact in some ways, Weinberg seems even more progressive; the final pale major chord seems like a hard-earned victory of pure tonality. This has definitely inspired me to hear more from this composer. My impression is that several of those Soviet-era composers not named DS or SP suffer from a lack of exposure (Myaskovsky also comes to mind, but I know there are others), perhaps due to the fact that they were not entirely in favor with the regime and therefore, unknown to the rest of the world.

The Pacifica’s technical prowess and security is flawless, but I wonder if there are more emotional depths to plumb in this work? Only way to find out is to listen to the Danels, the only other one on my streaming service.


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## StevehamNY

This is a brief but very informative overview of Weinberg's work (from his biographer, David Fanning), including some background on the SQ #6 (and how he built up to it with four movements in #4, five movements in #5, six movements in #6):






There's also some interesting insight into the relationship between Weinberg and Shostokovich:

"The remarkable thing about Weinberg and his relationship to Shostakovich is that there was a mutual respect and mutual influence. They showed each other all their significant new compositions as they were being composed and as they were being finished. And clearly, Shostakovich was such a huge figure in Soviet music, Weinberg could not avoid that influence. It was sometimes quite clear. But when you think, 'That sounds exactly like Shostakovich,' half the time it's because he's pinched it from Shostakovich; half the time it's because Shostakovich pinched it from him. So particularly the Jewish accent, that becomes a very important thing for Shostakovich, and really Weinberg is the one that we owe that to."


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> This is a brief but very informative overview of Weinberg's work (from his biographer, David Fanning), including some background on the SQ #6 (and how he built up to it with four movements in #4, five movements in #5, six movements in #6):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's also some interesting insight into the relationship between Weinberg and Shostokovich:
> 
> "The remarkable thing about Weinberg and his relationship to Shostakovich is that there was a mutual respect and mutual influence. They showed each other all their significant new compositions as they were being composed and as they were being finished. And clearly, Shostakovich was such a huge figure in Soviet music, Weinberg could not avoid that influence. It was sometimes quite clear. But when you think, 'That sounds exactly like Shostakovich,' half the time it's because he's pinched it from Shostakovich; half the time it's because Shostakovich pinched it from him. So particularly the Jewish accent, that becomes a very important thing for Shostakovich, and really Weinberg is the one that we owe that to."


I think that is exactly right, especially with the Weinberg 6, which seems to contain elements that can be found in later Shostakovich quartets (not my own insight, comes from the jacket note for the CD). Maybe that redeems a bit the huge loss to the music world, having to wait to the 90s for a rediscovery. At least traces of Weinberg were performed, in a way. A slight parallel is Shostakovich quoting a motif of his student and friend Ustvolskaya in his 5th quartet. Her music was banned but could still be played, vicariously, through Shostakovich.


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## Bwv 1080

Great posts, not familiar with Weinberg at all - agree it sounds like Shostakovich, but was written in 1946 so cannot be simply derivative.

Looks like he nearly did not survive Stalin (wiki):



> In February 1953, he was arrested on charges of "Jewish bourgeois nationalism" in relation to the murder of his father-in-law as a part of the so-called "Doctors' plot": Shostakovich allegedly wrote to Lavrenti Beria to intercede on Weinberg's behalf, as well as agreeing to look after Weinberg's daughter if his wife were also arrested. In the event, he was saved by Stalin's death the following month, and he was officially rehabilitated shortly afterwards.


He died only two years before Schnittke, am curious what relationship the two had and how Weinberg's music evolved in the 70s and 80s


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## ELbowe

As a preamble I trust no one takes personal offence at any of my ramblings; I am not speaking to a political ideology simply a musical one. Weinberg String Quartet No 6 is most enjoyable. More surprising is my reaction to it as I tend to avoid "modern" Russian classical. I don’t recall what piece(s) of music left such an impression of predominant hopelessness, industrial darkness and angst that I associate with such music, but it is not a place I spend my precious listening time. Listening to "modern" Russian classical music is for me akin to seeing those eponymous Soviet State buildings scattered to the four corners of the former USSR…..you enter a town and there is the same official building you just saw in the last (twenty) major town and you know that the next ten or twenty will have exactly the same building (and same colour!). I know this may sound naïve and possibly uneducated but is there not a perpetuation of a musical Soviet “ethos” even in the album covers for this type of music? It was brought home when I saw a recent post with an album cover depicting a hydro-electric dam (very similar to opening and closing scenes of David Lean’s Dr. Zhivago!). So what does that say about the sensibilities of the musical contents therein? With the natural self-preservation psyche of the artists living under such horrific draconian regime(s) can the result be anything other than the artist MUST produce a work and it MUST please the current leadership…. Can one expect anything else? I guess what I am wondering sans artistic freedom what can be the result? ..but then I listen to Weinberg String Quartet No 6 and I get an unexpected positive answer! So much for my theorem. 
Coincidentally I just watched “The Death of Stalin” the wonderful British “black” comedy that at times seem to resemble a sketch from Monty Pyton (Michael Palin plays Molotovby the way!) the opening scene is hilarious; a radio performance with full orchestra and soloist comes to a close as the phone rings in the audio booth... and …gasp!!...it is Stalin on the other end telling them to send a copy of the recording of the concert over to his office..now! Horror of horrors the producer realizes they didn’t record the concert!! He is forced (in order to save his life or worse be sent to the Gulag) ..to try to get everyone to return to their seats including the orchestra and get the concert replayed (conductor has left and the replacement is in his pajamas) …some of the audience is long gone so the lackeys must round-up anyone passing on the street to fill the seats…hilarious but no doubt accurate as to the fear such a phone call would bring. Rambled enough …I am very pleased with this week’s selection and will explore more of his works….will it bring me to listening to other modern Russian composers? em…not sure!! I would value opinions on this subject....no doubt I will get them!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I do think the Danel recording has more passion and a greater range of expression, integrating the various moods of the piece wonderfully. They are scratchier and more rugged of tone than the Pacificas, but it sounds more authentically raw and Russian.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I listened to the Quatuor Danel recording, I'll listen to the Pacifica tomorrow morning. I'm really glad a brilliant composer like Weinberg was brought to my attention because I had never even heard of him before. It's interesting listening to a contemporary of Shostakovich and there's plenty of stylistic parallels (I picked up on that Shosty 1 concerto theme in the 2nd mvt. as well, a pretty striking coincidence), though one can tell Weinberg has a unique voice of his own.

Slight digression: I think the natural and forgivable tendency to make comparisons to the more famous composer when talking about lesser known composers sort of diminishes the voice and uniqueness of the composer being discussed because it's like they're living in the other's shadow. Like with the Pleyel quartet, for example, almost everybody including myself were talking about it in comparison to Haydn and Mozart to some extent. It's inevitable, especially in that case because Haydn and Mozart are by far the better composers, but it doesn't really do the piece justice to think about it in such a way. When I was listening to this Weinberg, it was tempting to think about in the context of Shostakovich, a totally different human being and composer! I knew I couldn't give into that mode of thinking because Weinberg has an incredibly unique voice. Not sure exactly sure what I want to say with this but just some food for thought I guess. 

My favorite movements are the action-packed 1st movement and the emotional, introspective 3rd. The 3rd left the biggest imprint on me. It has a sad quality to it that I wouldn't call 'mournful' exactly but a product of deep contemplation that goes to some dark places. There's an interesting way he uses 'space' to bring distance and thus clarity between all the lines, or it could have been a product of the close-mic'd recording (like others in the thread of mentioned) or a combination of both. I'll see if it's any different in the Pacifica recording. 

Great choice by Malx, which isn't just an empty pleasantry for each week, I genuinely think everyone always brings something cool and interesting to the table.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do think the Danel recording has more passion and a greater range of expression, integrating the various moods of the piece wonderfully. They are scratchier and more rugged of tone than the Pacificas, but it sounds more authentically raw and Russian.


Are sophistication, polish, and elegance inherently excluded from what you consider "authentically Russian"?


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## HenryPenfold

I'm really enjoying reacquainting myself with this music, I've not listened to Weinberg an awful lot in the last 18 months. Anecdotally, I first heard of Weinberg when Klaus Heyman, chairman of Naxos stated 20 years ago that forthcoming projects include Holmboe and 'Vainberg', neither of whom I had heard of back then. I don't think any Holmboe has materialised on Naxos and Weinberg, such as there is, took a long time! - Please excuse the digression.


This quartet has so much music in it. Once you get your head around the shape and structure, there are so many interesting voices that Weinberg weaves into the fabric of the piece. And not just in the first movement that seems to be brimming with different 'voices' almost jostling for the foreground, but also in the 2nd and 5th movements (one can easily miss so much poignant, beautiful music in these two movements if one perceives them as a 'bridges' to bigger musical narratives in movements 1, 4 & 6). I've noticed that although this quartet is longish at over 30 minutes, It's almost like it's only about 10 minutes time from the 'earworm' that is the first subject of the first movement, to the arrival of the last notes of of the sixth movement. Always a good sign with good music and good performances. 

Speaking of performances, I have quite a strong preference for the Quatuor Danel. I feel they are a little warmer and more impassioned than the Pacifica, who I feel can be a tad brawny in places. I think that Q Danel are more inside the vernacular and convey the irony and the sardonic aspects of the music more convincingly. Of course both performances are excellent, so I suppose it will boil down to one's own preference as to how this music should go. I wonder if the Q Danel have benefited from undertaking a complete survey of Weinberg's quartets, thereby living, breathing and and focusing on nothing else for the duration.


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## Josquin13

The Danel Quartet also recorded a fine complete Shostakovich SQ cycle. I didn't find their Shosty playing unpolished or lacking in sophisication, but I haven't heard their Weinberg (nor the Pacifica's). Even so, I expect they'd inevitably sound more "Russian" than the Pacificas--despite being a Belgian quartet--seeing that they trained with both the Borodin and Beethoven Quartets in Shostakovich's music in their formative years. That's got to have had an influence on how they play Weinberg's music, as well. From my own experience, the Borodin Quartet tends to interpret works in a more 'late romantic' style than many of today's groups (certainly their Beethoven is interpreted in a more late romantic fashion): which one might hear as being more expressive or emotive, and arguably less polished and refined? But whether they played that way throughout the entire span of their career is another question, considering that the group changed personnel over the decades. In other words, the Danel Quartet may have trained with a much later incarnation of these two legendary Russian quartets.

Allegro Con Brio writes, "Yes, the musical language is very Shostakovichian (yikes, that’s a thorny frankenword - maybe “Shostian”) but I have no problem with that"

I'm wondering--is it clear that Weinberg was being influenced by Shostakovich's "musical language" in his string quartets, and not the other way around? My understanding has been that they were very close friends, and therefore likely influenced each other. Is that not right?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Knorf said:


> Are sophistication, polish, and elegance inherently excluded from what you consider "authentically Russian"?


Hmm, good question. I'm not sure. I wouldn't say they're inherently excluded, but I do think the Danels' more characterful approach is better at conveying certain elements of what the music is trying to say than the highly polished Pacificas, who play extraordinarily but just barely fail to find a deeper level of expression IMO. I guess it's not necessarily the tone or sound that matters, but what I hear as the communicative force - more spontaneity, sensitivity, storytelling. Now, maybe the rougher overall sound does contribute to that assessment for me. I'd have to more closely compare the two recordings to come up with more in-depth explanations. But I guess my extremely subjective take would be that merely playing the right notes perfectly with polished technique isn't enough to satisfy what I personally seek in a musical experience. They aren't mutually exclusive, but if I had to choose I would sacrifice technical perfection. I know lots of others feel differently and I respect that, which is why I try to listen to all kinds of recordings.


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## Knorf

Josquin13 said:


> I'm wondering--is it clear that Weinberg was being influenced by Shostakovich's "musical language" in his string quartets, and not the other way around? My understanding has been that they were very close friends, and therefore likely influenced each other. Is that not right?


I think it's pretty clearly mutual in terms of string quartets at least, although Shostakovich was as we know already much more well established when they met. But they have parallel musical interests in their artistic DNA (metaphorically speaking), and quite a lot of that, so it's easy to see how they would be influenced by each other.


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## StevehamNY

ELbowe said:


> As a preamble I trust no one takes personal offence at any of my ramblings; I am not speaking to a political ideology simply a musical one. Weinberg String Quartet No 6 is most enjoyable. More surprising is my reaction to it as I tend to avoid "modern" Russian classical. I don't recall what piece(s) of music left such an impression of predominant hopelessness, industrial darkness and angst that I associate with such music, but it is not a place I spend my precious listening time. Listening to "modern" Russian classical music is for me akin to seeing those eponymous Soviet State buildings scattered to the four corners of the former USSR…..you enter a town and there is the same official building you just saw in the last (twenty) major town and you know that the next ten or twenty will have exactly the same building (and same colour!). I know this may sound naïve and possibly uneducated but is there not a perpetuation of a musical Soviet "ethos" even in the album covers for this type of music? It was brought home when I saw a recent post with an album cover depicting a hydro-electric dam (very similar to opening and closing scenes of David Lean's Dr. Zhivago!). So what does that say about the sensibilities of the musical contents therein? With the natural self-preservation psyche of the artists living under such horrific draconian regime(s) can the result be anything other than the artist MUST produce a work and it MUST please the current leadership…. Can one expect anything else? I guess what I am wondering sans artistic freedom what can be the result? ..but then I listen to Weinberg String Quartet No 6 and I get an unexpected positive answer! So much for my theorem.
> Coincidentally I just watched "The Death of Stalin" the wonderful British "black" comedy that at times seem to resemble a sketch from Monty Pyton (Michael Palin plays Molotovby the way!) the opening scene is hilarious; a radio performance with full orchestra and soloist comes to a close as the phone rings in the audio booth... and …gasp!!...it is Stalin on the other end telling them to send a copy of the recording of the concert over to his office..now! Horror of horrors the producer realizes they didn't record the concert!! He is forced (in order to save his life or worse be sent to the Gulag) ..to try to get everyone to return to their seats including the orchestra and get the concert replayed (conductor has left and the replacement is in his pajamas) …some of the audience is long gone so the lackeys must round-up anyone passing on the street to fill the seats…hilarious but no doubt accurate as to the fear such a phone call would bring. Rambled enough …I am very pleased with this week's selection and will explore more of his works….will it bring me to listening to other modern Russian composers? em…not sure!! I would value opinions on this subject....no doubt I will get them!


ELbowe, I've only spent a few days behind what was once the iron curtain, but enough to recognize what you're talking about with respect to the architecture and the overall atmosphere, and how this oppressive ethos might seem to bleed into the culture at large. But this is what makes the music of Weinberg and Shostakovich et al so amazing to me, that it could be conceived under such circumstances.

(And of course, whenever I find myself falling into the familiar Western trap of thinking that Putin and his oligarchs are the present-day embodiment of Russia, I remember the thousands of people standing outside in 40-below weather and getting arrested en masse for daring to demand their freedom. THOSE people are the true heart of a great country.)

Finally, there's this anecdote, apparently based on true events, in Julian Barnes' novel about Shostakovich, "The Noise of Time":

"In 1949, when the attacks on him were still continuing, he had written his fourth string quartet. The Borodins had learnt it, and played it for the Ministry of Culture's Directorate of Musical Institutions, which needed to approve any new work before it could be performed - and before the composer could be paid. Given his precarious status, he was not sanguine; but to everyone's surprise the audition was a success, the piece authorised and money forthcoming. Soon afterwards, the story began to circulate that the Borodins had learnt to play the quartet in two different ways: authentically and strategically. The first was the way the composer had intended; whereas in the second, designed to get past musical officialdom, the players emphasised the 'optimistic' aspects of the piece, and its accordance with the norms of socialist art. This was held to be a perfect example of the use of irony as a defence against Power.

It had never happened, of course, but the story was repeated often enough for its veracity to be accepted. This was a nonsense: it wasn't true - it couldn't be true - because you cannot lie in music. The Borodins could only play the fourth quartet in the way the composer intended. Music - good music, great music - had a hard, irreducible purity to it. It might be bitter and despairing and pessimistic, but it could never be cynical. If music is tragic, those with asses' ears accuse it of being cynical. But when a composer is bitter, or in despair, or pessimistic, that still means he believes in something."

I cannot recommend this book highly enough, by the way. It's a risky proposition, casting fiction from the viewpoint of a historical character, but Barnes absolutely pulls it off. Anyone else here read it?


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## ELbowe

"_......I cannot recommend this book highly enough, by the way. It's a risky proposition, casting fiction from the viewpoint of a historical character, but Barnes absolutely pulls it off. Anyone else here read it?"_
StevehamNY Many thanks for your informative comments, I appreciate it. I have had Barnes' book on order from my library for a time but due to the Covid situation things are moving slowly but I hope to get it by month end....it is very popular. I have heard only good things about it...as a fan Julian's work I anticipate a good read. Thanks again!


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## HenryPenfold

ELbowe said:


> "_......I cannot recommend this book highly enough, by the way. It's a risky proposition, casting fiction from the viewpoint of a historical character, but Barnes absolutely pulls it off. Anyone else here read it?"_
> StevehamNY Many thanks for your informative comments, I appreciate it. I have had Barnes' book on order from my library for a time but due to the Covid situation things are moving slowly but I hope to get it by month end....it is very popular. I have heard only good things about it...as a fan Julian's work I anticipate a good read. Thanks again!


I couldn't get past the first 30 pages. Says more about me than the book. I'll give it another go tonight (bedtime read).


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## Josquin13

Knorf said:


> I think it's pretty clearly mutual in terms of string quartets at least, although Shostakovich was as we know already much more well established when they met. But they have parallel musical interests in their artistic DNA (metaphorically speaking), and quite a lot of that, so it's easy to see how they would be influenced by each other.


I agree that it was mutual. I've read that they lived very close to each other in Moscow, and shared their musical ideas on a regular basis. Yet, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Weinberg begin composing his string quartets before Shostakovich started his cycle?


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## StevehamNY

Josquin13 said:


> I agree that it was mutual. I've read that they lived very close to each other in Moscow, and shared their musical ideas on a regular basis. Yet, if I'm not mistaken, didn't Weinberg begin composing his string quartets before Shostakovich started his cycle?


They followed a pretty similar track, although Weinberg did write his SQ #1 a year earlier than Shostakovich (1937 vs. 1938). Apparently the two composers had a friendly competition to see who could reach #10 first -- and they both reached this milestone in 1964.


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## Carmina Banana

have come across a description of Weinberg as a Neoclassical composer. This seems apt to me. Usually the term is used to describe a composer who uses some of the superficial trappings of classical style. That doesn’t seem appropriate here, but it does seem like Weinberg was influenced by the late quartets of Beethoven. 
I think one could draw parallels between certain movements but I am also thinking of kinship in a larger sense: to me, Beethoven was always about reconciling conflicting elements within classical form and structure even when those forms and structures appeared to be breaking down. Weinberg is including a lot of conflicting elements and doing a similar kind of “working out” that Beethoven was pre-occupied with.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

If anyone wants another Weinberg recommendation, I listened to the 21st symphony this morning (admittedly in chunks, I was just sampling it, but I'm going to come back to it for a deeper listen soon). Holy cow, this is an absolute _masterpiece_ among 20th century symphonies. It's not an easy listen - it's one of the last things he composed and serves as both a summary of his bleak life and a memorial to Holocaust victims - but it is tremendously inspired, epic, and emotionally devastating. I can't believe it hasn't earned greater attention.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> If anyone wants another Weinberg recommendation, I listened to the 21st symphony this morning (admittedly in chunks, I was just sampling it, but I'm going to come back to it for a deeper listen soon). Holy cow, this is an absolute _masterpiece_ among 20th century symphonies. It's not an easy listen - it's one of the last things he composed and serves as both a summary of his bleak life and a memorial to Holocaust victims - but it is tremendously inspired, epic, and emotionally devastating. I can't believe it hasn't earned greater attention.


It earned enormous attention in the UK last year, including winning the Gramophone Recording Of The Year 2020. I agree with you, it's a stunning piece (I still haven't quite got to grips with it completely).

EDIT: On checking my download account, I bought this recording on 9th May 2019, so I'm not sure why Gramophone have it as their recording of the year for 2020. Strange.


----------



## annaw

I've been away for some time, but I gave a listen to the Weinberg quartet. It's a very interesting work, although quite moody (I was studying while listening to it for the first time, and have to say that solving problem sets has rarely been that tragic lol). I listened to the Danel recording as I didn't notice that there's a recording by Pacifica as well. Danel was fine but I'm currently listening to Pacifica's recording and I'm enjoying it a lot more - it's more atmospheric, detailed, and lively. I cannot recall ever hearing anything I would dare to call "bad" by Pacifica, and their sound is amazing as always.

I didn't quite acknowledge that Weinberg was a Soviet composer until I saw Pacifica's album cover - quite embarrassing... Somewhat ignorantly I assumed that Weinberg must have been a German because of his last name.  I'll try not to make the mistake of not reading _anything_ about the composer before listening to his works again. But now I also understand why Weinberg's 6th SQ resembles Shostakovich so much - its overall musical atmosphere and idiom was in many parts strikingly similar, although I feel Shosty's works sound often even more deeply tortured. There's something about Shosty that just makes him very unique in that regard.

Anyway, a great choice!!


----------



## Burbage

Well, this was fun. It starts with a nicely sprung theme that, to my ears, could come from the celtic world of Bax or Moeran but doesn't. There's something of Shostokovich in this, certainly, albeit with none of Shostakovich's distinctive tics. There are also similarities, in some ways, with Prokofiev and Kabalevsky. And, if I was going to be provocative, I'd mention Ives and Haydn, too. If 'neoclassical' means very much, I suppose it would cover this. It's in a key, and there are themes and developments and recapitulations and everything.

I've now listened to both the recordings available on YouTube, twice, and I'm really looking forward to hearing what the Silesians do with it. I slightly prefer the Danel version, at least for the moment, but I couldn't say why. The Pacifica Quartet is a bit more pointed, but that's largely a matter of taste. What struck me about this quartet, in both renditions, is that it works together very well. Astonishingly well. And that, like all well-crafted things, listening from a different angle doesn't hurt.

The question I like to ask is 'why', and I guess the answer here is that Weinberg was a composer. I don't suppose I've read anything that everyone hasn't read already, but Weinberg clearly liked (or needed) to keep himself busy, and took his work seriously, whether or not he'd get paid for it. I imagine that solidarity with other composers was a bit of a motive and, whether there's any truth to the story of his bet with Shostakovich, a competitive element, too. It's difficult to keep up with the pack and stand out from it, and I imagine he'd have been far from alone in trying to strike that balance, but here he seems to have succeeded, if a bit too well for comfort at the time.

From the scratchy bits of googling I've done, it seems Weinberg didn't spend the previous summer at the Composer's House in Ivanovo - where Prokofiev may have been helping Kabalevsky finish his 2nd quartet, and lending a bit of Cinderella for Shostakovich's (possibly by accident) - so any apparent borrowing from the home crowd is probably coincidental. That said, every time I listen, I seem to catch fragments that I've overheard before, but whether they've been dredged from the depths of Mussorgsky, wrested from humble peasants or pinched from peevish pretzel vendors, I couldn't rightly say.

But that's probably more than enough words from me. It's brightened my week. Best wishes and thanks to Malx for choosing it.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Burbage said:


> The question I like to ask is 'why', and I guess the answer here is that Weinberg was a composer. I don't suppose I've read anything that everyone hasn't read already, but Weinberg clearly liked (or needed) to keep himself busy, and took his work seriously, whether or not he'd get paid for it. I imagine that solidarity with other composers was a bit of a motive and, whether there's any truth to the story of his bet with Shostakovich, a competitive element, too. It's difficult to keep up with the pack and stand out from it, and I imagine he'd have been far from alone in trying to strike that balance, but here he seems to have succeeded,* if a bit too well for comfort at the time*.


Not totally sure what you're talking about with this paragraph and that last bit. Are you talking about his prolificity or just his general intentions as a composer?


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## Burbage

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Not totally sure what you're talking about with this paragraph and that last bit. Are you talking about his prolificity or just his general intentions as a composer?


I understand, from what I've read here and a few places elsewhere, that the sixth quartet was very popular with Weinberg's fellow composers, but much less with the authorities, including, perhaps, the Musical Union, which was in charge of what music was published (this was) and performed (this wasn't). They also ran the Composers' House in Ivanovo and I can't see that Weinberg was ever invited to stay there. Perhaps it didn't fit with his plans. Or maybe he was there, but under a different spelling. Or maybe he wasn't in favour.

It's just a hint, and I've done next-to-no research, which is why I wrote with, I hope, guarded circumlocutoriousness. Individual talent was appreciated, at the time, but only when it served good Soviet aims. If it didn't, or the authorites just didn't like it (authorities who may have been coached by professional rivals), or it belonged to the 'wrong sort' of person, then it's likely to have been as much a liability as a gift, especially for those without an international reputation. Such things didn't just decide whether your music got played or not, it was the difference between being a composer and a salt-mine statistic.

As for the keeping busy, Weinberg seems to have been writing prolifically in the preceding years. Again, I don't know why, exactly, he might have simply been ambitious. But he wouldn't, I gather, be the first composer to shut out the fears of oppression, war or persecution by writing music.

So, in answer to your question: yes, both.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Is *Rangstrom* still around? If not, we'll go to *BlackAdder* this week.

Rangstrom
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage


----------



## ELbowe

HenryPenfold said:


> It earned enormous attention in the UK last year, including winning the Gramophone Recording Of The Year 2020. I agree with you, it's a stunning piece (I still haven't quite got to grips with it completely).
> 
> EDIT: On checking my download account, I bought this recording on 9th May 2019, so I'm not sure why Gramophone have it as their recording of the year for 2020. Strange.


Henry! Please excuse if this has been answered else but is this the recording you refer to?


----------



## HenryPenfold

ELbowe said:


> Henry! Please excuse if this has been answered else but is this the recording you refer to?
> View attachment 151879


Yes ELbowe, that is the one. Why, have I caused some confusion?


----------



## ELbowe

HenryPenfold said:


> Yes ELbowe, that is the one. Why, have I caused some confusion?


No none whatsoever HP! ~ I just wished to clarify as sometimes I get sensory overload!! So much music! Thanks!!
Sheer coincidence ….all of a sudden its Mieczyslaw Weinberg everywhere!!!….Just got advanced notification of upcoming programmes on Mezzo TV for the next week, Next week this:
City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla (Conductor)
Sheku Kanneh-Mason (Cello)
Programme Includes:
….Mieczyslaw Weinberg (1919 - 1996)
24 Preludes for cello, Op. 100 (n ° 18, Sarabande)

Oliver Knussen (1952 - 2018)
The Way to Castle Yonder

Mieczyslaw Weinberg
Symphony No.3 in B minor

Recording: August 22 2019 - London Proms 2019

That should be worth hearing/seeing. While I have never heard Mr. Kanneh-Mason perform I am interested to hear him… I read a UK critic comment last year (?) on a recording that he is not top shelf in the Cello world with so many excellent players around these days (Alisa Weilerstein, Camille Thomas, Gabetta, Várdai, etc., ) and he wonders if he hadn't played at a famous wedding would we be still hearing about him…harsh?


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## Malx

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading everyones comments on the Weinberg Quartet.
I'll not repeat any of the observations all I'll add is that in my opinion this is an exceptional quartet given it was composed by a relatively young man and given the world around him at the time.
Having played both of the recordings a few times over this week I find myself struggling to say If I prefer one over the other.
I suspect my mood may determine which one I turn to, the Danel recording is perhaps a bit more sober and the Pacificas maybe have a little more attack in places but its marginal - I'm happy to have both on my shelves. I am now going to delve deeper into the other 16 quartets - that should keep me busy for a while.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> I've thoroughly enjoyed reading everyones comments on the Weinberg Quartet.
> I'll not repeat any of the observations all I'll add is that in my opinion this is an exceptional quartet given it was composed by a relatively young man and given the world around him at the time.
> Having played both of the recordings a few times over this week I find myself struggling to say If I prefer one over the other.
> I suspect my mood may determine which one I turn to, the Danel recording is perhaps a bit more sober and the Pacifica's maybe have a little more attack in places but its marginal - I'm happy to have both on my shelves. I am now going to delve deeper into the other 16 quartets - that should keep me busy for a while.


Yes, very enjoyable following all the interesting comments - and well done Malx on a very good choice (when it's my turn I'll probably choose a dud! :lol

I too have resolved to work through the rest, a tall order, but it has to be done. I have all the Silesian releases bar the last one with 1 & 16, so it will be interesting to compare performances.


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## HenryPenfold

ELbowe said:


> No none whatsoever HP! ~ I just wished to clarify as sometimes I get sensory overload!! So much music! Thanks!!
> Sheer coincidence ….all of a sudden its Mieczyslaw Weinberg everywhere!!!….Just got advanced notification of upcoming programmes on Mezzo TV for the next week, Next week this:
> City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra
> Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla (Conductor)
> Sheku Kanneh-Mason (Cello)
> Programme Includes:
> ….Mieczyslaw Weinberg (1919 - 1996)
> 24 Preludes for cello, Op. 100 (n ° 18, Sarabande)
> 
> Oliver Knussen (1952 - 2018)
> The Way to Castle Yonder
> 
> Mieczyslaw Weinberg
> Symphony No.3 in B minor
> 
> Recording: August 22 2019 - London Proms 2019
> 
> That should be worth hearing/seeing. While I have never heard Mr. Kanneh-Mason perform I am interested to hear him… I read a UK critic comment last year (?) on a recording that he is not top shelf in the Cello world with so many excellent players around these days (Alisa Weilerstein, Camille Thomas, Gabetta, Várdai, etc., ) and he wonders if he hadn't played at a famous wedding would we be still hearing about him…harsh?


Knussen's passing was so sad, a huge loss - RIP big fellah .........


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Is *Rangstrom* still around? If not, we'll go to *BlackAdder* this week.
> 
> Rangstrom
> BlackAdderLXX
> starthrower
> annaw
> SearsPoncho
> HenryPenfold
> Helgi
> Carmina Banana
> GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
> StevehamNY
> FastkeinBrahms
> Burbage


Willing and able to go next if needed.


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> Knussen's passing was so sad, a huge loss - RIP big fellah .........


I don't know how I missed that back in 2018? I saw that post here and did a double take. Okay, I don't want to get off the subject. Looking forward to this week's quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

BlackAdder, I have not heard back from Rangstrom, so if he doesn’t post here by tomorrow morning, you can make your pick


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## BlackAdderLXX

Ok, so here is my pick. As always it was harder than I thought. It's been almost a year since we did the Ravel SQ, so I think that enough time has passed to do the usual travelling companion to that work: *Debussy String Quartet in G minor, Op. 10
*
*From earsense.org:
*In 1893, Debussy composed his first important work, the String Quartet in g minor, Op. 10. It was the only work to which he attached an opus number or a key designation and it was the only work Debussy wrote in a conventional form. Outwardly, the quartet assumes the mold of a traditional string quartet comprising four movements: a first movement sonata, a rhythmic scherzo, a slow, lyrical movement and an energetic finale. But within this unremarkable template, the music sounds completely new. Debussy expanded the sound of the string quartet with a variety of novel textures and tonal effects ranging from delicate subtlety to ravishing grandeur. With exotic scales, unconventional chords, progressions and key changes, the music features melodies and harmonies unique for their time. Especially striking is the quartet's rhythmic vitality, spontaneous agility and poetic subtlety. With swiftly changing tempi, a wealth of dazzling figurations, cross-rhythms and the special shimmering or hovering pulsations typical of his music, Debussy captures a nuanced experience of time. With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to see many elements of Debussy's signature style within this early work: the sensuous languor of l'après-midi d'un faune, the kinetic energy of La Mer, the spice and color of his Iberian Images.

FULL ARTICLE


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wonderful! I’ve never liked it as much as the Ravel, but then I haven’t spent as much time comparing performances. Here is Trout’s list of recommended recordings:

1. Quartetto Italiano (1965)
2. Quatuor Ebène (2008)
3. Alban Berg Quartet (1984)
4. Melos Quartet (1979)
5. Belcea Quartet (2000)
6. Tokyo String Quartet (1977)
7. Juilliard String Quartet (1989)
8. Emerson String Quartet (1984)
9. Quatuor Ysaÿe (1990)
10. Hagen Quartett (1992)


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## Helgi

The Weinberg: What a great quartet! So much material. I still feel that I haven’t really grasped it, not fully, but it’s been coming together for me over the course of the week and I enjoy it more and more on each listen.

I preferred the Pacifica recording at first but now I can’t really decide between them. I wonder why there aren’t more recordings available, especially with so many good quartets around (ensembles I mean).


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## HenryPenfold

Great choice - I haven't listened to this work in a while.

I have 3 recordings: Belcea Quartet, Kodaly Quartet & Quartetto Italiano. Not sure which one is my preference.


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## SearsPoncho

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Ok, so here is my pick. As always it was harder than I thought. It's been almost a year since we did the Ravel SQ, so I think that enough time has passed to do the usual travelling companion to that work: *Debussy String Quartet in G minor, Op. 10
> *
> *From earsense.org:
> *In 1893, Debussy composed his first important work, the String Quartet in g minor, Op. 10. It was the only work to which he attached an opus number or a key designation and it was the only work Debussy wrote in a conventional form. Outwardly, the quartet assumes the mold of a traditional string quartet comprising four movements: a first movement sonata, a rhythmic scherzo, a slow, lyrical movement and an energetic finale. But within this unremarkable template, the music sounds completely new. Debussy expanded the sound of the string quartet with a variety of novel textures and tonal effects ranging from delicate subtlety to ravishing grandeur. With exotic scales, unconventional chords, progressions and key changes, the music features melodies and harmonies unique for their time. Especially striking is the quartet's rhythmic vitality, spontaneous agility and poetic subtlety. With swiftly changing tempi, a wealth of dazzling figurations, cross-rhythms and the special shimmering or hovering pulsations typical of his music, Debussy captures a nuanced experience of time. With the benefit of hindsight, it is easy to see many elements of Debussy's signature style within this early work: the sensuous languor of l'après-midi d'un faune, the kinetic energy of La Mer, the spice and color of his Iberian Images.
> 
> FULL ARTICLE


An excellent choice, BlackAdderLXX! One of my favorites. Perhaps this was the piece when Debussy became the Debussy we know and love, albeit using a traditional classical vehicle. I have two recordings, the Quatuor Ebene and the Emerson String Quartet; while both are very good, the Quatuor Ebene is the one to have and the more idiomatic reading. I believe most of us have that disc, which also has sympathetic performances of the Ravel and Faure quartets.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I have exactly one recording, which I like but obviously cannot rate in comparison to others: The Quatuor Loewenguth, a DG mono recording from the early fifties. Looking forward to listening to that one and hear about further recommendations.


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## Helgi

I have the Quatuor Ebene so that's my starting point. 

As luck would have it I was already planning to focus my attention on Debussy this week, because of a concert I attended last night


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## ELbowe

Gosh.... but there are a lot of recordings of this work out there….
For the first time (?) for the assigned listening I have two in my collection!
Debussy • Ravel : Streichquartette Melos Quartett ‎- 
Deutsche Grammophon LP, Stereo 1979
And Disc 12 Debussy Box set with Quatour Ebene


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## Malx

I have three to start with:

Orpheus Quartet - Channel Classics
Julliard Quartet - Sony
Belcea Quartet - BBC MM


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## Merl

Omg, i have tons of these. This could be some marathon.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl, you're going to need to take time off to listen to all the recordings.

I prefer the Quatuor Ebene over the Emersons, but it's not just the performance, it's also the mic placement, balance, production and audio engineering. Do we have someone knowledgeable in the technical aspects of recording (perhaps Knorf?) who could enlighten us on these matters and discuss what is so special about the balance and audio quality of the Quatuor Ebene? It sounds more natural than the Emersons, which has an in-you-face, upfront aesthetic.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, you're going to need to take time off to listen to all the recordings.
> .


It's the most recorded SQ around (apart from some of the Beethoven SQs - but I even think it outstrips them). I'll have to be selective. I know quite a few so I'll just do a shortlist and go at those.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> It's the most recorded SQ around (apart from some of the Beethoven SQs - but I even think it outstrips them). I'll have to be selective. I know quite a few so I'll just do a shortlist and go at those.


Here, I've cut the list down a bit for you so it's more manageable ..........

*Arcanto Quartet (Harmonia Mundi)
Quatuor Ebene (Erato, 2008)**
Jerusalem Quartet (Harmonia Mundi, 2018)
Takacs Quartet (Hyperion, 2016)
Melos Quartet (DG)
Belcea Quartet (Warner)
Emerson Quartet (DG)
Chilingirian Quartet (CfP)
Talich Quartet (La Dolce Volta)
Juilliard Quartet (Sony)
Australian Quartet (ABC Classics)
Orpheus Quartet (Channel Classics)
Quatuor Modigliani (Mirare)
Tokyo Quartet (Sony)
Galatea Quartet (Sony)
La Salle Quartet (DG)
Brodsky Quartet (Chandos)
Dante Quartet (Hyperion)
Quatuor Debussy (Timpani)
Bartok Quartet (Hungaroton)
Alexander Quartet (VDE-Gallo)
Momenta Quartet (Albany)
Amaryllis Quartet (Genuin)
Ceruti Quartet (MSR Classics)
Quartetto Nous (Amadeus Arte)
Sine Nomine Quartet (Artist Consort Edition)
Acies Quartet (Gramola)
Formosa Quartet (Warner Debut)
Vegh Quartet (Orfeo)
Alban Berg Quartet (Warner GROC)
Ysaye Quartet (Wigmore Hall Live)
Pro Arte Quartet (Archiphon)
Juilliard Quartet (RCA)
Quartetto Italiano (Urania)
Stuyvesant Quartet (Bridge)
Quartetto Italiano (Philips/Decca)
Orlando Quartet (Philips)
Kodaly Quartet (Naxos)
Medici Quartet (Nimbus)
Orlando Quartet (Accord)
Rubin Quartett (Arte Nova)
Quatuor Alcan (Analekta)
Signum Quartet (Capriccio)
Avalon Quartet (Cedille)
Marlboro Festival Quartet (Marlboro Recording Society)
Cuarteto Casals (HMGold)
Cuarteto Latinoamericano (Urtext)
Raphael Quartet (Globe)
Ysaye Quartet (Decca)
Fine Arts Quartet (Lodia)
New Zealand Quartet (Atoll)
Hagen Quartet (DG)
The Lindsays (ASV)
Orion Quartet (Delos)
New Hungarian Quartet (Vox)
Quatuor Calvet (Warner)
Quatuor Hermes (La Dolce Vita)
Quatuor Van Kuijk (Alpha)
The London String Quartet (Music & Arts)
The Hungarian Quartet (Music & Arts)
Schoenberg Quartet (Etcetera
Leipzig Quartet (MDG)
Parkanyi Quartet (Praga)
Quartetto Prometeo (Brilliant)
Vertavo Quartet (Simax)
Auryn Quartet (Tacet)
Cleveland Quartet (Telarc)
Kuijken Ensemble (Arcana)
Borodin Quartet (Alto)
**Capet Quartet (Opus Kura)
Quatuor Danel (Fuga Libera)
Original Borodin Quartet (Chandos)*


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## starthrower

Being an ardent fan of Debussy's music for over 35 years I should probably own a few major recordings of this work. I spotted one from my collection on Henry's list which is the Orion Quartet on Delos. That label issued an excellent 3 disc set of Debussy's chamber music featuring some first class musicians but packaged it in a rather generic looking cover of flowers that looks like it belongs on a motel wall. My other recording is on the budget Pilz label billed as the Intl String Quartet of NY. And that's the one I'm going to start with today. The individual musicians are not credited.


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## Merl

Here's the full list of 111 (up to now) quartets that have recorded this one and bear in mind some quartets have recorded it at least twice (eg Talich, Borodin, Juilliard, etc). So there's probably at least 120 recordings around. Jeezo, BA. 















Edit: I already have about 15 recordings of this one and most of those will definitely make the first cut. There's others here that I still have notes on (from the Ravel quartet review) so any dodgy recordings soundwise or any I already know are being bunged out early so that rules out recordings by the Orfords (really dislike the Quartet's sound), the Talich's 1988 recording (nowhere near as good as their later one), the Medicis (just listened, not a compwtive performance), New York and Della Scala (poorly recorded), Vlach (I've never been fond of this "classic' one), Nuovo (both the Debussy and Ravel recordings are slow and boring), International (the poor ensemble of the first movement was enough to rule this out immediately).

I've got a shortlist with about 20 recordings on it already. Of the rest I'm going to fully listen to all the big hitters and skip listen to some lesser known recordings and if they resonate then they'll get a full play. I have loads of time on Tuesday to play stuff but I've already started. Listening to the Juilliards as I write.


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## HenryPenfold

Too many Merl, go with my list, I've cut it down to 72!


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## BlackAdderLXX

HenryPenfold said:


> Here, I've cut the list down a bit for you so it's more manageable ..........
> 
> *Arcanto Quartet (Harmonia Mundi)
> Quatuor Ebene (Erato, 2008)**
> Jerusalem Quartet (Harmonia Mundi, 2018)
> Takacs Quartet (Hyperion, 2016)
> Melos Quartet (DG)
> Belcea Quartet (Warner)
> Emerson Quartet (DG)
> Chilingirian Quartet (CfP)
> Talich Quartet (La Dolce Volta)
> Juilliard Quartet (Sony)
> Australian Quartet (ABC Classics)
> Orpheus Quartet (Channel Classics)
> Quatuor Modigliani (Mirare)
> Tokyo Quartet (Sony)
> Galatea Quartet (Sony)
> La Salle Quartet (DG)
> Brodsky Quartet (Chandos)
> Dante Quartet (Hyperion)
> Quatuor Debussy (Timpani)
> Bartok Quartet (Hungaroton)
> Alexander Quartet (VDE-Gallo)
> Momenta Quartet (Albany)
> Amaryllis Quartet (Genuin)
> Ceruti Quartet (MSR Classics)
> Quartetto Nous (Amadeus Arte)
> Sine Nomine Quartet (Artist Consort Edition)
> Acies Quartet (Gramola)
> Formosa Quartet (Warner Debut)
> Vegh Quartet (Orfeo)
> Alban Berg Quartet (Warner GROC)
> Ysaye Quartet (Wigmore Hall Live)
> Pro Arte Quartet (Archiphon)
> Juilliard Quartet (RCA)
> Quartetto Italiano (Urania)
> Stuyvesant Quartet (Bridge)
> Quartetto Italiano (Philips/Decca)
> Orlando Quartet (Philips)
> Kodaly Quartet (Naxos)
> Medici Quartet (Nimbus)
> Orlando Quartet (Accord)
> Rubin Quartett (Arte Nova)
> Quatuor Alcan (Analekta)
> Signum Quartet (Capriccio)
> Avalon Quartet (Cedille)
> Marlboro Festival Quartet (Marlboro Recording Society)
> Cuarteto Casals (HMGold)
> Cuarteto Latinoamericano (Urtext)
> Raphael Quartet (Globe)
> Ysaye Quartet (Decca)
> Fine Arts Quartet (Lodia)
> New Zealand Quartet (Atoll)
> Hagen Quartet (DG)
> The Lindsays (ASV)
> Orion Quartet (Delos)
> New Hungarian Quartet (Vox)
> Quatuor Calvet (Warner)
> Quatuor Hermes (La Dolce Vita)
> Quatuor Van Kuijk (Alpha)
> The London String Quartet (Music & Arts)
> The Hungarian Quartet (Music & Arts)
> Schoenberg Quartet (Etcetera
> Leipzig Quartet (MDG)
> Parkanyi Quartet (Praga)
> Quartetto Prometeo (Brilliant)
> Vertavo Quartet (Simax)
> Auryn Quartet (Tacet)
> Cleveland Quartet (Telarc)
> Kuijken Ensemble (Arcana)
> Borodin Quartet (Alto)
> **Capet Quartet (Opus Kura)
> Quatuor Danel (Fuga Libera)
> Original Borodin Quartet (Chandos)*


Doing the Lord's work there bud. :lol:


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> It's the most recorded SQ around (apart from some of the Beethoven SQs - but I even think it outstrips them). I'll have to be selective. I know quite a few so I'll just do a shortlist and go at those.


I was going to pick Vaughan Williams SQ#1 but there's only like 5-6 recordings...


----------



## StevehamNY

starthrower said:


> ... That label issued an excellent 3 disc set of Debussy's chamber music featuring some first class musicians but packaged it in a rather generic looking cover of flowers that looks like it belongs on a motel wall. ...


I know this is a completely different topic, but at some point can we just take one day to vent about classical music covers? (I know, this is best done in a separate thread altogether. It's just... I mean... GAH!)

Anyway, listening to the Ebene (flawless) recording of the Debussy right now. Next up, the live Vegh recording, which is sure to be a little distant and rough. And yet...


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Too many Merl, go with my list, I've cut it down to 72!


Ive cut it down to to 50 already, HP. As its usually paired with the Ravel some knowledge of those recordings is useful but theres plenty of recordings of the Debussy that are sparkling, even if their Ravel is nowhere near as impressive. For example, the Juilliards are much better in the Debussy.

Tbh, of all the famous quartets, the Debussy is near the bottom of my list. I dont play it anywhere near as often as the Ravel (unless i cant be bothered turning the cd off). Its still a fine quartet, and the 2nd movement is crammed with pizzicato, but it gets less airplay than most other big hitter quartets (thats already changed overnight). Lol. Right im off to do more listening. I burned 6 or 7 to the car USB last night.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I listened to the Julliard Quartet recording. I've always had a soft spot for the French Impressionists. They really blazed a lot of trails that led to modern and contemporary music and I find that there's never a dull moment. Always filled with vibrant colors and rich, complex chords and unique sonorities. I loved this one but still prefer the Ravel quartet personally, if I had to choose between the two.

Besides the complex harmony and sonorities, which I think are the most apparent qualities to most listeners including myself, one thing that really struck me is how lyrical the quartet is. I found it was really passionate and heartfelt throughout.

Slight digression: I'm a big fan of the Villa-Lobos quartets and just Villa-Lobos as a composer in general, and I never quite made the connection until now about how similar his harmonic language to the French Impressionists! I knpw Heitor spent a lot of time in France and these fellows were also his contemporaries, so I wonder how direct that influence was? I found a scholarly journal on the subject if anyone is interested: https://www.academia.edu/36073610/Villa_Lobos_and_Debussy_comparisons_in_analytical_aspects


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Ive cut it down to to 50 already, HP. As its usually paired with the Ravel some knowledge of those recordings is useful but theres plenty of recordings of the Debussy that are sparkling, even if their Ravel is nowhere near as impressive. For example, the Juilliards are much better in the Debussy.
> 
> Tbh, of all the famous quartets, the Debussy is near the bottom of my list. I dont play it anywhere near as often as the Ravel (unless i cant be bothered turning the cd off). Its still a fine quartet, and the 2nd movement is crammed with pizzicato, but it gets less airplay than most other big hitter quartets (thats already changed overnight). Lol. Right im off to do more listening. I burned 6 or 7 to the car USB last night.


I'm looking forward to the top picks.

I listened to the Quator Ebene yesterday and thought it was a fantastic performance. I rarely listen to the Debussy and lack the familiarity with it that I have with the Ravel, hopefully this will change that somewhat.


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## SearsPoncho

I've listened to this quartet many times, although I still play the Ravel more frequently, and it definitely is one of those works where I hear something new every time. In doing comparative listening, I'm guessing that it's actually the Finale which will separate the men from the boys.

P.S. I listened to it again late last night and was surprised that for the first time I heard what sounded like some early pre-Copland Americana in the 3rd movement. I've always read that this was a "modal" composition. Perhaps there is some mining of the pentatonic scale, which Dvorak also was cognizant of while composing his famous American works. I realize this might be an unusual take, but it also sounded somewhat like Delius (The Florida Suite). This might also be the influence of Eastern music, which Debussy explored further in later compositions.

*It's been decades since I've read any harmony texts, but I believe if one eliminates two notes from the Phrygian scale, one ends up with the classic minor pentatonic scale, which is the backbone of American blues...and a million Jimmy Page imitators.


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## Merl

Interesting that you mention the final movement, SP, as that's the reason that I play this quartet less than the Ravel. The Ravel, for me, is a terrific quartet with 4 excellent movements. IMO, the Debussy suffers as it has 3 similarly excellent first 3 movements and then that last movement is, if I'm being honest, just a bit boring. The problem I have with it is it doesn't seem to go anywhere. You have that lovely, richly rewarding, lyrical slow 3rd movement andantino and then the 4th just seems to wander aimlessly. I know Boulez and others opined that this was freeing the SQ from "rigid structure, frozen rhetoric and rigid aesthetics" but for me it just doesn't work. Its a piece that for me is missing a killer ending (whether slow or quick). Instead it kind of grinds to an unsatisfying end. Before anyone bites my head off with the familiar cries of "that's my favourite movement" it's just a personal opinion. I'm curious if others feel this is the weakest movement too (*Merl steadies himself for a chorus of disapproval and vitriol). :lol:


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> Interesting that you mention the final movement, SP, as that's the reason that I play this quartet less than the Ravel. The Ravel, for me, is a terrific quartet with 4 excellent movements. IMO, the Debussy suffers as it has 3 similarly excellent first 3 movements and then that last movement is, if I'm being honest, just a bit boring. The problem I have with it is it doesn't seem to go anywhere. You have that lovely, richly rewarding, lyrical slow 3rd movement andantino and then the 4th just seems to wander aimlessly. I know Boulez and others opined that this was freeing the SQ from "rigid structure, frozen rhetoric and rigid aesthetics" but for me it just doesn't work. Its a piece that for me is missing a killer ending (whether slow or quick). Instead it kind of grinds to an unsatisfying end. Before anyone bites my head off with the familiar cries of "that's my favourite movement" it's just a personal opinion. I'm curious if others feel this is the weakest movement too (*Merl steadies himself for a chorus of disapproval and vitriol). :lol:


After this comment I listened to three versions of just the final movement as an experiment: The Kodaly, Brodski and the Melos quartets.

Apart from the wonderfully sonorous first minute and the fire cracker of an ending in the last thirty seconds or so this is probably the most "modern" movement, and I am not surprised that Boulez liked it. The second subject introduced by the cello could have been written by Ligeti. Almost the entire movement, apart from the beginning and the ending, sounds "avantgarde" to me. It comes certainly as a surprise after the first three movements and it probably sounded shocking when it first came out.

I guess that the playing is particularly important here as the music is not as accessible as in the other movements. Of the three performances I mentioned, I liked the Kodaly by far the best. They have a beautiful ensemble sound, at the same time, they play the second subject and its development with a fiery approach I find very satisfying. I often find Debussy lacking a bit in inner tension but there is certainly a lot of tension here. And boy, what an explosive final flourish in the Kodaly recording! This has even a bit of Haydnesque wit. Who would have thought that Debussy had a sense of humour. Maybe, it is the Kodaly quartet's sense of humour but it looks (or rather, sounds) good on Debussy.

After having enjoyed this so much as a stand alone piece I wonder whether there is something in Merl's remark, not as a negative comment on the quality of the composition, which I find superb, but on the way it might not completely fit into the overall construction of the quartet.


----------



## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> .... After having enjoyed this so much as a stand alone piece I wonder whether there is something in Merl's remark, not as a negative comment on the quality of the composition, which I find superb, but on the way it might not completely fit into the overall construction of the quartet.


I think you hit the nail on the head there, FKB. It's more a case of 'not fitting' for me. On its own I probably wouldn't feel the same way but it almost feels like it's been 'tagged on'. That feeling of disjointedness has never left me, no matter how many times I've played this quartet. Please don't get the feeling I don't like this quartet, btw. I like it a lot but I just wished I loved it. It won't stop me going thru all these recordings though. Oh, and I agree about the Kodaly, FKB. You'll have to see where that particular recording ends up in my survey.


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## HenryPenfold

Lots of very interesting posts already!

I'm intrigued by the comments about the finale (FastkeinBrahms & Merl), which really resonate with me, thus .........

Yesterday, I listened to Ebene, Q. Italiano & Belcae. Jumping to my conclusion, this composition enjoys an identity crisis (romantic/modern) that can be taken either way* (Ebene, modern, via Bartok or Q. Italiano, romantic, in their own inimitable way), except in the finale, where the contradictions can't be reconciled.

Rewinding to the pre-conclusion episode of my listen, I determined that whilst the Ebene performance is inarguably in a class of its own, something was stopping me from enjoying the journey. I realised the reason is that the modernist take is idiomatically incongruent. The Ebene are _retrospectively_ interpreting where Debussy _goes next_, while the Q. Italiano perform Debussy _in illo tempore_.

So where am I at the moment with this quartet? Well, quite simply, with the Q. Italiano.

* I abhor dichotomies, but this one is pressing.


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Lots of very interesting posts already!
> 
> I'm intrigued by the comments about the finale (FastkeinBrahms & Merl), which really resonate with me, thus .........
> 
> Yesterday, I listened to Ebene, Q. Italiano & Belcae. Jumping to my conclusion, this composition enjoys an identity crisis (romantic/modern) that can be taken either way* (Ebene, modern, via Bartok or Q. Italiano, romantic, in their own inimitable way), except in the finale, where the contradictions can't be reconciled.
> 
> Rewinding to the pre-conclusion episode of my listen, I determined that whilst the Ebene performance is inarguably in a class of its own, something was stopping me from enjoying the journey. I realised the reason is that the modernist take is idiomatically incongruent. The Ebene are _retrospectively_ interpreting where Debussy _goes next_, while the Q. Italiano perform Debussy in illo tempore.
> 
> So where am I at the moment with this quartet? Well, quite simply, with the Q. Italiano.
> 
> * I abhor dichotomies, but this one is pressing.


That's a really interesting observation, HP., and one that may resonate with many listeners of this quartet but I don't think that it's just unique to this quartet only. Performance style is always contentious in many SQ works of this period.


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## starthrower

I just listened to Quartett Italiano through headphones and I loved every minute of it! I concur with Merl that the slow 3rd movement is the highpoint but I disagree about the finale being aimless. It has some wonder lines and a dance like lightness to contrast with the solemnity of the previous movement. It's nothing too serious, just an evening among old friends but soon they realize they've been going on in to the wee hours of the morning and suddenly everyone dashes out into the night on their way home.


----------



## Josquin13

I've mentioned it before, but I'm a Debussy & Ravel nut. (The whole Ballets Russes period in Paris at the turn of the last century fascinates me, musically.) Debussy & Ravel are two of my favorite composers in music history, in my top 10, & maybe even in my top 5 in Debussy's case. While I've listened to & enjoyed both their string quartets over the years, I've never felt the need to collect a huge number of recordings. At least, not as I have with their solo piano music (the number of which is obscene), or Debussy's 'other worldly' Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harp, for example (see below). I've been quite content and happy with the (only 11) versions that I own of the SQ.

Nevertheless, I'll be keenly interested to see how my favorite versions hold up under Merl's scrutiny this week, especially since I've noticed in recent years that there have been several well reviewed recordings from some of the more acclaimed groups today, such as Quatour Van Kruijk, for instance, whose version I've not heard.

Listed below are the 11 recordings that I own and like of Debussy's String Quartet, if anyone's interested. While Merl will no doubt listen to many more over the coming week, my goal is to listen to the versions in my collection and try to put them in some order of preference. In the past, I've most liked the Parkanyi, Galimir, Orpheus, Ysaÿe, Alban Berg, & Italiano SQ recordings of the quartet. But the Orlando's Philips recording is also very fine (& I know some people prefer it to the group's later recording as the Parkanyi Quartet--after they'd changed cellists & renamed the quartet). While the Melos Quartett's LP recording won a coveted Rosette from the Penquin Guide back in the 1980s, and it is a very fine, imaginative performance--one of the best that I've heard from this group. So, I'll be curious to see which ones I respond to most favorably this week.

--Parkanyi Quartet (Praga, hybrid SACD): https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2470
--Orlando Quartet (Philips)
--Galimir Quartet (Vanguard Classics)--This is one of the most underrated versions in the catalogue, IMO, a real sleeper:
















--Orpheus Quartet (Channel Classics)--another sleeper: 



--Quartetto Italiano (Philips)--this is a highly regarded, classic analogue version, as many here will already know: 



--Ysaÿe Quartet--I have their Decca studio recording, but here's a link to their live account at Wigmore Hall. Like the Parkanyis, the Ysaÿe Quartet play Debussy's quartet with more tonal heft than is usual, which I like: 



--Ebene Quartet (Virgin): 



--Alban Berg Quartett (EMI): 



--Melos Stuttgart Quartett (DG): 



--Jerusalem Quartet (Harmonia Mundi): 



--Chilingirian Quartet (both on Chandos & the always reliable "Classics for Pleasure" label): 




Historical choices: Quatour Calvet, though it was an earlier incarnation of the Ysäye Quartet that actually premiered the work: 



. I've also listened to and like a very rare recording by the Curtis Quartet from Philadelphia, which is posted on You Tube: 




Edit: Looking over Henry's list, I was reminded that I've also heard Quatour Danel and Cuarteto Casal's recordings, as well, but wasn't overly taken with either performance (& surprisingly so for the Casal's recording, since I'm a fan of the group, especially their Mozart & Haydn). I've not heard the Emerson Quartet in this music.

For those looking to expand their experience & understanding of Debussy's chamber music further, I'd strongly urge you to listen to his late Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harp, if you don't know it. I'd place this sonata even higher on my list of Debussy masterpieces than his string quartet, which I also rate highly. I believe the sonata was even more influential on subsequent composers than his quartet, or at least as much so. It was the first major composition written for what I consider to be an utterly magical combination of instrumental timbres--the flute, viola, and harp. The composers that followed after Debussy's example with similar works included Bax, Jolivet, Mathias, Milhaud, Britten, Piston, Rawsthorne, Nørgård, Saariaho, Takemitsu, Weinberg, and many other modern and contemporary composers. Here are the ton of recordings that I own in my LP & CD collection (like I said I'm nuts about Debussy), or have listened to on You Tube & liked very much, & I've placed an asterisk by those that I remember as being extra special:

--*Montreal Chamber Players, Atma (I'm including the whole album in the link, since it's a great favorite of mine): 



--*Ensemble Wien-Berlin, DG: 



--*Boston Symphony Chamber Players, originally on DG, then Universal Eloquence, and now on the Pentatone label in remastered and much improved Hybrid SACD sound:












https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...or flute harp viola&size=10&view=large&page=3
--*Fabrice Pierre, Pierre-Henry Xuereb, Patrick Gallois, on the Saphir Productions label--another sleeper:












--*Lily Laskine, Jean-Pierre Rampal, Pierre Pasquier (which I prefer to the earlier historical recording that Laskine made with Marcel Moyse, indeed this is one of the better older versions on record, and arguably the best of Rampal's versions): 



--*Academy of St. Martin's in the Fields Chamber Ensemble: with harpist, Skaila Kanga (another 1st class digital era recording):



--*Annie Chalan, Colette Lequien, Roger Bourdin, Philips (another classic older recording from the 1960s. Bourdin's "Syrinx" must be heard, too): 



--*Ieuan Jones, William Bennett, Robert Maskell, on Cala (for me, this is a very interesting alternative interpretation of the sonata, as I find what Bennett does here fascinating--it is definitely not just another version, as they make the sonata sound more modern & it works well: The performance is part of a recommendable series of French chamber music recordings that Cala released on two CDs): 



.
--Julius Baker, Lillian Fuchs, Laura Newell--this is a magical performance from 1954 that I've listened to on You Tube: 



.
--Linos Harp Quintet, SWR Digital: 



--*The Atlantic Sinfonietta, Koch label
--*Nash Ensemble, Virgin Classics
--*Melos Ensemble of London, with Osian Ellis on harp (this is another classic older version: the main draw here is the harp playing of Osian Ellis, who was an incredible musician): 



--Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center--Paul Neubauer, Ransom Wilson, Nancy Allen:












--Xavier de Maistre, Antoine Tamestit, Magali Mosnier (on Harmonia Mundi):https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=debussy sonata for flute harp viola
--*Philippe Bernold, Gérard Caussé, Isabelle Moretti (Harmonia Mundi): 



--Athena Chamber Ensemble (Chandos)
--Oxalys, Fuge libera: 



--Trio Leandro, NCA, hybrid SACD
--Yehudi Menuhin, Lily Laskine, Michel Debost, EMI.
--Aureole, Koch label: 



--*Aurele Nicolet, Nobuko Imai, Naoko Yoshino, Philips (on an album entitled Toward the Sea III, after a piece by Takemitsu): 



--Yolanda Kondonassis, Joshua Smith, Cynthia Phelps, Telarc.
--The Florestan Trio, Hyperion, CD, and Hybrid SACD.
--Trio Fontenay, Teldec.
--Trio Chausson
--Marie-Pierre Langlamet, Emmanuel Pahud, Gerard Caussé, on Erato. 
--Marielle Nordmann, Jean-Pierre Rampal, Bruno Pasquier, on Saphir Productions
--Kuijken Ensemble (on period instruments): 




Historical: Marcel Moyse, Lily Laskine, Eugéne Ginot, who if I'm not mistaken gave the premiere, and first recorded it. This performance is certainly interesting, & especially hearing the work played with the old fashioned viola slides, but it's not among my top favorite versions. The later recording by Louis Moyse, Blanche Moyse, and Lucille Lawrence is better, IMO, but still not a top favorite of mine. Laskine recorded the work again at least three other times. For example, I see there is another Laskine recording from 1938 with Marcel Moyse and Alice Merckel on You Tube: 



.

If I have enough time this week, I'll try to put a selection of my favorite recordings of the Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harps in some order of preference, as well, by the end of the week. & I hope this is of interest to someone other than myself?

P.S. In response to Henry's earlier post, I too was saddened by the death of Oliver Knussen. I can't believe it was in 2018. The loss is still so fresh in my mind. My friend Alan Stout passed away in early 2018, as well. He and Olly had been close friends since they'd met at Tanglewood in the 1970s. Knussen used to say that Alan was "more British than the British"--which was true. At the time of Alan's death, Olly revised a 1972 work for solo bassoon, entitled "Metamorphosis" and dedicated it "to the memory of my dear friend of 40 years, the composer Alan Stout (26.11.1932 - 1.2.2018)". It was played in Alan's memory at a concert in London. Little did we know that we'd lose Knussen just 6 months later.

It is one of my regrets in life that I never met Olly in person, though we knew about each other, since we shared a friend in common. Alan had given me his phone number when I lived in London in my early twenties, but I was too shy to call. It was around the time that Knussen's opera "Where the Wild Things" was making a splash at the National Theater, and I found the prospect of calling and meeting him intimating.

Of course, I heard stories about him over years. His great size was a subject of mirth for Alan. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the photograph of Knussen being given the Queen's medal for music from Queen Elizabeth in 2016. He dwarfs her! it's wonderful,

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/...-knussen-with-the-queens-news-photo/533025698

The violinist Leila Josefowicz has recounted some vivid & warm memories of her friendship with Knussen. She obviously loved him dearly as a friend and greatly admired his musical gifts. Everyone seems to agree that Knussen had an incredible ear, including Josefowicz. I think it is evident in both his conducting and compositions. I've watched a couple of videos where she talks about Olly--among other musical subjects--and found her thoughts & stories engaging and interesting (she keeps returning to Knussen throughout the interview, right up to the end): 



 Evidently, she considers Knussen's Violin Concerto--which she has championed & recorded--to be one of the great violin concertos of the 20th century: 



.

Nor is Knussen entirely off topic here during our Debussy week. Considering that he's one of many important contemporary composers whose music was strongly influenced by Debussy. I only wish he'd recorded some of Debussy's music as a conductor. I know he conducted La Mer and Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien (without D'Annunzio's words!) in concert. But there were no commercially produced recordings, regrettably. I hope there will be some live recordings released one day (if only I ran a record label...). Of course, it would have been great if Knussen had recorded all of Debussy's orchestral music in a complete set, but alas, it was not meant to be. A favorite quote of mine by Knussen is on the incalculable impact that Debussy had on most of the music that followed after him: it was published in BBC magazine:

"The likelihood is that if a composer has not been influenced by such a figure, he has deliberately reacted against the aesthetic. I don't think I have written a single note since I was 18 years old that doesn't have Debussy hovering somewhere in the background, though perhaps that's just wishful thinking."

Knussen's work, "Ophelia's Last Dance" is clearly Debussy influenced, for example, and I enjoy that aspect of his music: 




My favorite story about Knussen is a quirky one: I remember Alan once told me he and Olly were walking together on a street in London, and Knussen was so wrapped up in what he was saying to Alan that he inadvertently walked straight into a lamp post. As mentioned, Knussen was a very large man--some would say a giant, & Alan said that the sound of the two colliding masses made a loud thud. Knussen stood there for a moment glaring back at the lamp post, and then continued on with his sentence without any acknowledgment about what had just happened!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I kicked things off with the Ebene this afternoon. I agree that the finale is quite “avant-garde” compared to the rest, especially after the very tonal and late-Romantic sounding (though ravishing!) third movement. There were moments in the finale that almost reminded me of Messiaen and Dutilleux, who I believe are both natural extensions of Debussy’s lineage. I must say that I have no problem appreciating that movement; as long as it receives a graceful and witty performance it is the perfect finish. IMO that Ebene disc totally deserves its high reputation. Their playing is mercurial but controlled, adventurous but polished; and I’m particularly taken by the delicacy and subtlety of how they terrace the slow movement. I do not have school duties this week, so I should find time to listen to several more recordings.


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## HenryPenfold

Josquin13 said:


> I've mentioned it before, but I'm a Debussy & Ravel nut. (The whole Ballets Russes period in Paris at the turn of the last century fascinates me, musically.) Debussy & Ravel are two of my favorite composers in music history, in my top 10, & maybe even in my top 5 in Debussy's case. While I've listened to & enjoyed both their string quartets over the years, I've never felt the need to collect a huge number of recordings. At least, not as I have with their solo piano music (the number of which is obscene), or Debussy's 'other worldly' Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harp, for example (see below). I've been quite content and happy with the (only 11) versions that I own of the SQ.
> 
> Nevertheless, I'll be keenly interested to see how my favorite versions hold up under Merl's scrutiny this week, especially since I've noticed in recent years that there have been several well reviewed recordings from some of the more acclaimed groups today, such as Quatour Van Kruijk, for instance, whose version I've not heard.
> 
> Listed below are the 11 recordings that I own and like of Debussy's String Quartet, if anyone's interested. While Merl will no doubt listen to many more over the coming week, my goal is to listen to the versions in my collection and try to put them in some order of preference. In the past, I've most liked the Parkanyi, Galimir, Orpheus, Ysäye, Alban Berg, & Italiano SQ recordings of the quartet. But the Orlando's Philips recording is also very fine (& I know some people prefer it to the group's later recording as the Parkanyi Quartet--after they'd changed cellists & renamed the quartet). While the Melos Quartett's LP recording won a coveted Rosette from the Penquin Guide back in the 1980s, and it is a very fine, imaginative performance--one of the best that I've heard from this group. So, I'll be curious to see which ones I respond to most favorably this week.
> 
> --Parkanyi Quartet (Praga, hybrid SACD): https://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/2470
> --Orlando Quartet (Philips)
> --Galimir Quartet (Vanguard Classics)--This is one of the most underrated versions in the catalogue, IMO, a real sleeper:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Orpheus Quartet (Channel Classics)--another sleeper:
> 
> 
> 
> --Quartetto Italiano (Philips)--this a highly regarded, classic analogue version, as many here will already know:
> 
> 
> 
> --Ysäye Quartet--I have their Decca studio recording, but here's a link to their live account at Wigmore Hall. Like the Parkanyis, the Ysäye Quartet play Debussy's quartet with more tonal heft than is normal, which I like:
> 
> 
> 
> --Ebene Quartet (Virgin):
> 
> 
> 
> --Alban Berg Quartett (EMI):
> 
> 
> 
> --Melos Stuttgart Quartett (DG):
> 
> 
> 
> --Jerusalem Quartet (Harmonia Mundi):
> 
> 
> 
> --Chilingirian Quartet (both on Chandos & the always reliable "Classics for Pleasure" label):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Historical choices: Quatour Calvet, though it was an earlier incarnation of the Ysäye Quartet that actually premiered the work:
> 
> 
> 
> . I've also listened to and like a very rare recording by the Curtis Quartet from Philadelphia, which is posted on You Tube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Looking over Henry's list, I was reminded that I've also heard Quatour Danel and Cuarteto Casal's recordings, as well, but wasn't overly taken with either performance (& surprisingly so for the Casal's recording, since I'm a fan of the group, especially their Mozart & Haydn). I've not heard the Emerson Quartet in this music.
> 
> For those looking to expand their experience & understanding of Debussy's chamber music further, I'd strongly urge you to listen to his late Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harp, if you don't know it. I'd place this sonata even higher on my list of Debussy masterpieces than his string quartet, which I also rate highly. I believe the sonata was even more influential on subsequent composers than his quartet, or at least as much so. It was the first major composition written for what I consider to be an utterly magical combination of instrumental timbres--the flute, viola, and harp. The composers that followed after Debussy's example with similar works included Bax, Jolivet, Mathias, Milhaud, Britten, Piston, Rawsthorne, Nørgård, Saariaho, Takemitsu, Weinberg, and many other modern and contemporary composers. Here are the huge number of recordings that I own in my LP & CD collection (like I said I'm nuts about Debussy), or have listened to on You Tube & liked very much, & I've placed an asterisk by those that I remember as being extra special:
> 
> --*Montreal Chamber Players, Atma (I'm including the whole album in the link, since it's a great favorite of mine):
> 
> 
> 
> --*Ensemble Wien-Berlin, DG:
> 
> 
> 
> --*Boston Symphony Chamber Players, originally on DG, then Universal Eloquence, and now on the Pentatone label in remastered and much improved Hybrid SACD sound:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...or flute harp viola&size=10&view=large&page=3
> --*Fabrice Pierre, Pierre-Henry Xuereb, Patrick Gallois, on the Saphir Productions label--another sleeper:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --*Lily Laskine, Jean-Pierre Rampal, Pierre Pasquier (which I prefer to the earlier historical recording that Laskine made with Marcel Moyse, indeed this is one of the better older versions on record, and arguably the best of Rampal's versions):
> 
> 
> 
> --*Academy of St. Martin's in the Fields Chamber Ensemble: with harpist, Skaila Kanga (another 1st class digital era recording):
> 
> 
> 
> --*Annie Chalan, Colette Lequien, Roger Bourdin, Philips (another classic older recording from the 1960s. Bourdin's "Syrinx" must be heard, too):
> 
> 
> 
> --*Ieuan Jones, William Bennett, Robert Maskell, on Cala (for me, this is a very interesting alternative interpretation of the sonata, as I find what Bennett does here fascinating--it is definitely not just another version, as they make the sonata sound more modern & it works well: The performance is part of a recommendable series of French chamber music recordings that Cala released on two CDs):
> 
> 
> 
> .
> --Julius Baker, Lillian Fuchs, Laura Newell--this is a magical performance from 1954 that I've listened to on You Tube:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> --Linos Harp Quintet, SWR Digital:
> 
> 
> 
> --*The Atlantic Sinfonietta, Koch label
> --*Nash Ensemble, Virgin Classics
> --*Melos Ensemble of London, with Osian Ellis on harp (this is another classic older version: the main draw here is the harp playing of Osian Ellis, who was an incredible musician:
> 
> 
> 
> --Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center--Paul Neubauer, Ransom Wilson, Nancy Allen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Xavier de Maistre, Antoine Tamestit, Magali Mosnier (on Harmonia Mundi):https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=debussy sonata for flute harp viola
> --*Philippe Bernold, Gérard Caussé, Isabelle Moretti (Harmonia Mundi):
> 
> 
> 
> --Athena Chamber Ensemble (Chandos)
> --Oxalys, Fuge libera:
> 
> 
> 
> --Trio Leandro, NCA, hybrid SACD
> --Yehudi Menuhin, Lily Laskine, Michel Debost, EMI.
> --Aureole, Koch label:
> 
> 
> 
> --*Aurele Nicolet, Nobuko Imai, Naoko Yoshino, Philips (on an album entitled Toward the Sea III, after a piece by Takemitsu):
> 
> 
> 
> --Yolanda Kondonassis, Joshua Smith, Cynthia Phelps, Telarc.
> --The Florestan Trio, Hyperion, CD, and Hybrid SACD.
> --Trio Fontenay, Teldec.
> --Trio Chausson
> --Marie-Pierre Langlamet, Emmanuel Pahud, Gerard Caussé, on Erato.
> --Marielle Nordmann, Jean-Pierre Rampal, Bruno Pasquier, on Saphir Productions
> --Kuijken Ensemble (on period instruments):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Historical: Marcel Moyse, Lily Laskine, Eugéne Ginot, who if I'm not mistaken gave the premiere, and first recorded it. This performance is certainly interesting, & especially hearing the work played with the old fashioned viola slides, but it's not among my top favorite versions. The later recording by Louis Moyse, Blanche Moyse, and Lucille Lawrence is better, IMO, but still not a top favorite of mine. Laskine recorded the work again at least three other times. For example, I see there is another Laskine recording from 1938 with Marcel Moyse and Alice Merckel on You Tube:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> If I have enough time this week, I'll try to put a selection of my favorite recordings of the Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harps in some order of preference, as well, by the end of the week. & I hope this is of interest to someone other than myself?
> 
> P.S. In response to Henry's earlier post, I too was saddened by the death of Oliver Knussen. I can't believe it was in 2018. The loss is still so fresh in my mind. My friend Alan Stout passed away in early 2018, as well. He and Olly had been close friends since they'd met at Tanglewood in the 1970s. Knussen used to say that Alan was "more British than the British"--which was true. At the time of Alan's death, Olly revised a 1972 work for solo bassoon, entitled "Metamorphosis" and dedicated it "to the memory of my dear friend of 40 years, the composer Alan Stout (26.11.1932 - 1.2.2018)". It was played in Alan's memory at a concert in London. Little did we know that we'd lose Knussen just 6 months later.
> 
> It is one of my regrets in life that I never met Olly in person, though we knew about each other, since we shared a friend in common. Alan had given me his phone number when I lived in London in my early twenties, but I was too shy to call. It was around the time that Knussen's opera "Where the Wild Things" was making a splash at the National Theater, and I found the prospect of calling and meeting him intimating.
> 
> Of course, I heard stories about him over years. His great size was a subject of mirth for Alan. Speaking of which, has anyone seen the photograph of Knussen being given the Queen's medal for music from Queen Elizabeth in 2016. He dwarfs her! it's wonderful,
> 
> https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/...-knussen-with-the-queens-news-photo/533025698
> 
> The violinist Leila Josefowicz has recounted some vivid & warm memories of her friendship with Knussen. She obviously loved him dearly as a friend and greatly admired his musical gifts. Everyone seems to agree that Knussen had an incredible ear, including Josefowicz. I think it is evident in both his conducting and compositions. I've watched a couple of videos where she talks about Olly--among other musical subjects--and found her thoughts & stories engaging and interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> Evidently, she considers Knussen's Violin Concerto--which she has championed & recorded--to be one of the great violin concertos of the 20th century:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Nor is Knussen entirely off topic here during our Debussy week. Considering that he's one of many important contemporary composers whose music was strongly influenced by Debussy. I only wish he'd recorded some of Debussy's music as a conductor. I know he conducted La Mer and Le Martyre de Saint Sébastien (without D'Annunzio's words!) in concert. But there were no commercially produced recordings, regrettably. I hope there will be some live recordings released one day (if only I ran a record label...). Of course, it would have been great if Knussen had recorded all of Debussy's orchestral music in a complete set, but alas, it was not meant to be. A favorite quote of mine by Knussen is on the incalculable impact that Debussy had on most of the music that followed after him: it was published in BBC magazine:
> 
> "The likelihood is that if a composer has not been influenced by such a figure, he has deliberately reacted against the aesthetic. I don't think I have written a single note since I was 18 years old that doesn't have Debussy hovering somewhere in the background, though perhaps that's just wishful thinking."
> 
> Knussen's work, "Ophelia's Last Dance" is clearly Debussy influenced, for example, and I enjoy that aspect of his music:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My favorite story about Knussen is a quirky one: I remember Alan once told me he and Olly were walking together on a street in London, and Knussen was so wrapped up in what he was saying to Alan that he inadvertently walked straight into a lamp post. As mentioned, Knussen was a very large man--some would say a giant, & Alan said that the sound of the two colliding masses made a loud thud. Knussen stood there for a moment glaring back at the lamp post, and then continued on with his sentence without any acknowledgment about what had just happened!


Phew! an awful lot of tantalising perspectives!

Forgive me, but I must think about all this over breakfast, tomorrow!


----------



## Merl

Wow, Jos, as usual your posts blow me away. Theyre always a wealth of information and balanced opinion. The devil is always in the detail and your knowledge of topics always impresses me. Thanks too for all the links. I've always been thoroughly enamored with Ravel's SQ and as its usually partnered with the Debussy Ive heard quite a lot of performances. Im going to try and do this quartet justice and im really analysing the main performances. Looking at Trout's list I can see immediately that there are 3 performances that will definitely not make it into my top tier. Ive just listened to one that has really blown me away. There really are some exceptional recordings of the Debussy quartet so this is going to be even tougher than i thought.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Sorry to taint this brilliant analysis with my pedestrian comment but I listened to Quator Hermes and thought they were excellent. Their close miked production really does it for me. I have a hard time with rough sonics so from an engineering perspective their Ravel/Dutilleux/Debussy album is fantastic. The performance is great too, though I'm going to listen through the other five or six recordings I have to see which is my favorite.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Josquin13 said:


> I've mentioned it before, but I'm a Debussy & Ravel nut. (The whole Ballets Russes period in Paris at the turn of the last century fascinates me, musically.) Debussy & Ravel are two of my favorite composers in music history, in my top 10, & maybe even in my top 5 in Debussy's case. While I've listened to & enjoyed both their string quartets over the years, I've never felt the need to collect a huge number of recordings. At least, not as I have with their solo piano music (the number of which is obscene), or Debussy's 'other worldly' Sonata for Flute, Viola, & Harp, for example (see below). I've been quite content and happy with the (only 11) versions that I own of the SQ.


Thanks for the writeup and the recommendation. I love Debussy. If you do come up with a ranking, I'd definitely be interested.


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## Merl

After a packed 3 days of solid listening I've decimated the list to about 30 and of those I've listened to well over half, made notes and scored them movement by movement (only needed a quick reminder of the 15 I have - 2 of which haven't put in that 30). I'll probably take out a few more to make a more manageable 25-ish
There will be a definitive order this time but some will be sharing the same score. One thing is for sure, my list and Trout's list will look *very* different (with perhaps a little overlap) ! Lol.


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## Bwv 1080

All three (of the planned 6) late sonatas are fantastic pieces - the violin/piano and cello/piano are great as well. 

Glad to get to know the SQ, know the solo piano, late sonatas and orch works well, but had not really paid attention to the SQ.

Been listening to the Hagen recording


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## Carmina Banana

I’m really enjoying all of your comments. I wanted to add my two cents about the last movement.

The last movement, I think, is very organized thematically, but it is not as obviously organized as the other three somehow. Because of this, we are extremely conscious of the bold harmonic drifting or searching. It feels like the music is constantly trying to get a foothold, but it can’t. Then, it ends. Unlike Beethoven, who sets us up for the return to our home key and then blasts away at it for the last two pages, Debussy starts the movement about as far from the home key as possible (by the way, does anyone else hear Wagner in that intro?) and never really gets to it until the end.
At first, the movement felt a bit unsatisfying compared to the others, but after listening to this movement quite a few times, I started to really appreciate it as an exciting journey. You never quite know where it is going until it breathtakingly gets there.


----------



## Carmina Banana

Some notable recordings I have listened to:
I love the Ebene recording because of their use of rubato and the blending of their sound. Very stylish and sophisticated.
I heard an early Juilliard quartet recording this morning that was horribly dry and clinical sounding. Good performance, but why that sound? Just the aesthetics of the time?


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## BlackAdderLXX

Today it's the Lindsays. Another fine performance and recording. I'm starting to become more familiar with the 'road map' of this work and I'm glad for it. Since this is normally paired with the Ravel it tended to overshadow the Debussy in my mind at least until now. This is a charming work, I especially am enjoying the opening and the second movement. I don't really get the dislike for the finale but that's me. I tend to score high on agreeableness.


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Today it's the Lindsays. Another fine performance and recording. I'm starting to become more familiar with the 'road map' of this work and I'm glad for it. Since this is normally paired with the Ravel it tended to overshadow the Debussy in my mind at least until now. This is a charming work, I especially am enjoying the opening and the second movement. I don't really get the dislike for the finale but that's me. I tend to score high on agreeableness.


BTW, I don't dislike the finale at all, I was just saying that I don't have the love for it that I have for the other 3 movements but I still like it. Some of the recordings that I'll be reviewing will show up at the top of both the Ravel and Debussy roundups but there are some recordings where one quartet is much better performed than the other. The Lindsays, ironically, is a perfect example of this but I'll say no more, for now.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> BTW, I don't dislike the finale at all, I was just saying that I don't have the love for it that I have for the other 3 movements but I still like it. Some of the recordings that I'll be reviewing will show up at the top of both the Ravel and Debussy roundups but there are some recordings where one quartet is much better performed than the other. The Lindsays, ironically, is a perfect example of this but I'll say no more, for now.


I saw your post was the latest and was hoping your book would be done. You know how to keep them in suspense!


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I saw your post was the latest and was hoping your book would be done. You know how to keep them in suspense!


Lol @ "book". I'm dreading writing it, though. I don't think I've ever listened to a bunch of recordings this intently, including when I do my Beethoven reviews. I've got 7 more recordings to listen to so, if I squeeze in a few after the City game tonight, it'll probably be finished by tomorrow night. If City lose (again) I won't bother as I'll be in too much of a bad mood.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Lol @ "book". I'm dreading writing it, though. I don't think I've ever listened to a bunch of recordings this intently, including when I do my Beethoven reviews. I've got 7 more recordings to listen to so, if I squeeze in a few after the City game tonight, it'll probably be finished by tomorrow night. If City lose (again) I won't bother as I'll be in too much of a bad mood.


As a Cockney Red, I advise you to follow cricket and music.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> As a Cockney Red, I advise you to follow cricket and music.


^ defriended.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> ^ defriended.


:lol:

........

"Mum, it's the dustbin men ....."


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> If City lose (again) I won't bother as I'll be in too much of a bad mood.


I can see it now. "The fourth movement sucks, but you know what??? So do the other three movements. It all sucks."
:lol:


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Lol @ "book". I'm dreading writing it, though. I don't think I've ever listened to a bunch of recordings this intently, including when I do my Beethoven reviews. I've got 7 more recordings to listen to so, if I squeeze in a few after the City game tonight, it'll probably be finished by tomorrow night. If City lose (again) I won't bother as I'll be in too much of a bad mood.


Don't you'all make me pull out my Detroit Lions card. Tom Brady on his own has won 34 postseason games, including 7 Super Bowls. The Detroit Lions have won 1 (ONE!) postseason game in my 60-year lifetime.


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## Merl

This thread has descended into silliness (but at least that's better than boring nonsense about objective, subjective or universal truth). I may have to flounce.


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## SearsPoncho

So what team are we supposed to be rooting for? We want Merl's final notes asap but I don't know who "City" is. Just an ignorant American basketball fan.

But seriously...

I never really had a problem with the finale of the Debussy, I just think it's hard to pull off well. Interestingly enough, I love the Ravel String Quartet but I always feel slightly let down by the finale of that quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Being a Minnesota sports fan, I think I have you all beaten for sheer sports futility:lol: But as we are getting into serious thread drift, here are some more thoughts about recordings of the Debussy.

I think that this music needs to be played with freedom and flexibiilty above all else. Phrasing, dynamics, tone quality, etc. are all obviously still important in my evaluations but things really need to have a natural ebb and flow and somewhat of an improvisatory feel in order for a recording to be super successful in my view. That's part of the reason why the Ebene's playing tickles my fancy so much, but another one I heard that really satisfies this criteria is the *Kodaly*, which it sounds, Merl rates highly and for great reason. I think the Kodaly Quartet is one of Naxos's greatest assets on record - their Haydn is brilliant - and their performance here oozes with warmth and affection with just that sort of light rubato that I love. They also have a slightly unique tone that I enjoy, maybe a bit huskier and less "refined" but very characterful. I also took in the Melos and Ysaÿe. The former is rather unforced but wonderfully expressive and they don't wallow in sentimentality, but still deliver a golden, winning interpretation. The latter I was less impressed by. A little more aggressive and less sympathetic to the idiom IMO. There are still a few more that I want to hear. Based on my love for their Ravel, I fully expect to fall in love with the vintage Calvet recording, which, as I believe Josquin mentioned, gets us as close to Debussy's original intentions as we can.

Oh, and this is a highly worthy read, from one of my favorite classical music spots on the Interwebz: http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics6/debrav.html


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> So what team are we supposed to be rooting for? We want Merl's final notes asap but I don't know who "City" is. Just an ignorant American basketball fan.


Gotta be Man City? (Says the fellow American sports fan.) And I assume that their 5-2 victory tonight over Southampton is very good news?


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## FastkeinBrahms

Great that there is so much appreciation for the Kodaly. I just stumbled on it during a random Spotify search after finding my old Loewenguth mono recording ok, especially the wonderfully undulating character of the first movement, but the sonics just too dry, which I think is a real let down with the richly textured music of Debussy. Kodaly just does a wonderful job of sonority and clarity, absolutely nothing muddled there and still giving the half romantic side its full due. I find Allegro con Brio's comment very apt. There needs to be an element of improvisation, which is only possible if the ensemble in question have played together a lot and have practised so much that they know the music practically by heart.

Still waiting for my Quatuor Ebene CD to arrive, saving that one for last. I hope to see Merl 's review!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ... I think that this music needs to be played with freedom and flexibiilty above all else. Phrasing, dynamics, tone quality, etc. are all obviously still important in my evaluations but things really need to have a natural ebb and flow and somewhat of an improvisatory feel in order for a recording to be super successful in my view. That's part of the reason why the Ebene's playing tickles my fancy so much, but another one I heard that really satisfies this criteria is the *Kodaly*, which it sounds, Merl rates highly and for great reason. I think the Kodaly Quartet is one of Naxos's greatest assets on record - their Haydn is brilliant - and their performance here oozes with warmth and affection with just that sort of light rubato that I love. They also have a slightly unique tone that I enjoy, maybe a bit huskier and less "refined" but very characterful. I also took in the Melos and Ysaÿe. The former is rather unforced but wonderfully expressive and they don't wallow in sentimentality, but still deliver a golden, winning interpretation. The latter I was less impressed by. A little more aggressive and less sympathetic to the idiom IMO.


Whilst not giving anything away I will say that both Kodaly and Ebene (oh, and Melos) impress. Your thoughts on the Kodaly Quartet as a whole, ACB, I totally agree with. Nearly all of their Naxos recordings are top class (esp.their hugely underrated Beethoven SQ cycle). As for the Ysaye, I'm also totally in agreement. I didn't rate their Ravel account on the same disc and this one was similarly unengaging and soupy and didn't make the cut. The same fate befell quite a few quartets who tried to make the 3rd movement, especially, into a schmaltzfest or who played with little character. As someone further up the thread alluded to, very dryly recorded performances also suffer in this SQ (the Juiliiard's 1960 account springs to mind). I only have 3 to go so I'll round up later. 

PS. yes it is Manchester City, SP (they're my hometown team and one I've followed all my life). I'm surprised Knorf hasn't mentioned Arsenal yet.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Takacs today. Lovely.


----------



## Malx

Having now listened to the three recordings I have in my collection three times over, I will briefly give my musically uneducated thoughts:

*Belcea Quartet (BBC MM)*
It seems to me fairly clear that here is a young quartet finding their way around this piece, and doing remarkably well. If I hadn't heard any other recordings I would have been very happy with this performance but the other two I have offer a little more.
*Orpheus Quartet (Channel Classics)*
I bought this disc initially for the Dutilleux recording, then discovered the Ravel as being of good quality - and it is not a great surprise to me that their Debussy recording is also very good. They may be a little understated but the whole seems to flow well and the fourth movement on this recording seems to fit better with the other three.
*Juilliard Quartet (Sony 1989)*
This was the first recording I acquired of the Debussy quartet so there is definitely an element of imprinting going on for me, but I still like the clarity and slightly better sense of attack they bring without losing the overall feel of the piece. The sound is possibly a little dry but I have long enjoyed this one and still do to this day.

The quartet is not up there with my favourites but I have enjoyed listening to the discs again - I'll avoid listening to others fearing the irresistible urge to buy more will grab me by the throat.

I will now go back and read the other posts to see how out of line with the concensus I am.

Nice choice BlackAdder


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## Merl

*Debussy String Quartet Review*

With over 120 recordings this was never going to be an easy task and I've had to be quick, decisive and very selective. Skip-listening and prior knowledge of recordings helped a lot in the early stages and there are a number I've not had a chance to listen to. I'm not going to dwell on those recordings and there are some fine recordings there that didn't quite make it into the mix (eg Signum, Vertavo Budapest, Meccore). Anyhoo, I ended up listening to over 30 shortlisted recordings intently and I decided to rate them with a score from 40 (10 for each movement). Yeah I know that sounds a bit @nal but it was the easiest way to do it! Here's the final standings. You may agree or may not but I will say that every recording on this list I either own or would be happy to own. Where appropriate I may mention couplings. Here goes...

_32 points_
Orion, Lindsays, Arcanto, Chilingirian, Melos, Sine Nomine, Alcan, Galatea and LaSalle.

_33 points_
*Juilliard (1989) *- Some dryness in the recording knocks this fine one down a little. 
*Galimir* - coupled with a similarly fine Ravel and available for buttons. 
*Orpheus* - beautifully played but lacks the character of better ones. The couplings are excellent. 
*Takacs* - as above. Technically immaculate and great recording but a bit routine. Another with a better coupling. 
*New Zealand* - this one gets better and better as it goes on. Youthful and highly enjoyable. 
*Stenhammar* - starts out forcefully and brilliantly but fades in 2nd half. Ravel coupling is better.

_34 points (the business end) _
*Alban Berg *- consistently excellent classic performance with a reference Ravel in tow. 
*St Petersburg* - let down by a sloppy 1st movement this one then goes on to fulfil its promise. 2nd movement is hugely impressive and vibrant. 
*Tokyo* - very fine consistent, classic account.
*Benyounes* - youthful, quirky with 2 superb inner movements.

_35 points_ 
*Tinalley* - not as brilliant as their fantastic Ravel coupling but superlative playing. Needs more in the slow movement but otherwise exemplary. 
*Orlando* - tremendous quality and I love the grittier feel of their playing. 
*Acies* - this excellently realised one-hit wonder came out of nowhere. 
_
36 points (now we're getting serious - these are thoroughbreds) _

*Italiano* - classic 60s account that is paired with their stunning Ravel. Still sounds amazing for its age. 
*Ebene* - fresh, youthful, dynamically expressive, brilliantly recorded and with a killer 2nd movement. 
*Belcea* - let down by a curiously underplayed opening movement. The rest is highly expressive, pure class and it ends brilliantly. 
*Emerson* - not as highly charged as you'd expect (far from it) but they really do get this one bang-on and the slow movement is sublime. 
*Eroica* - gut strings, dynamic, fantastic ensemble. Recorded sound is awesome and listen to those plucky pizzicatos. 
*Alma* - another from nowhere and of a consistently superb standard across all movements. A real grower. 
*Auryn* - from a superb disc of French quartets. Gorgeously recorded and beautifully characterful pizzocatos that had me purring. 
*Brodsky* - one of the broadest readings out there but the Brodskys play the hell out of it. The andante is intensely beautiful and almost moved me to tears. The powerful final movement may be the best here. 
*Hagen* - a performance of technical excellence, tremendous ensemble and expressive freedom that's only let down by DG spoiling the cello sound.

_37 points (OMG)_








*Kodaly* - possibly their finest performance. Smiles from start to finish. Never over sentimental and their killer tone and unfussy approach pay huge dividends. A group thoroughly enjoying themselves on this sounds-like-live performance. Cheap as chips secondhand too. Get it. Ravel coupling is also high quality.
*Talich* (2012) - whole approach is wonderful. Loads of character and a 3rd movement that has a melancholic quality that moved me greatly. The brisk standard of playing and recording on this one is just tremendous and makes their 80s recording sound very average. Yes.

38 points (near perfect)








*Jerusalem* - what a brilliant disc this is. Although the inner movements are tremendous its the start and end that seal the deal here. The quality of ensemble playing here is simply stunning.








*Avalon* - another that came from the fringes but boy do the Avalons sound good. Slightly more sentimental playing but the quality of the inner movements is absolutely sublime. A very pleasant and glorious surprise with excellent couplings.








*Hermes* - this young, French quartet finished joint top of the shop in the Ravel SQ and this is equally gallic and impressive. The dynamics and realisation of the performance sold me from the start. The recording is state of the art, the playing is alive and fresh and I couldn't fault it. Turn this up and it sounds even better. A desert island disc for me (because of couplings). 
*
Too Pick (39 points) *









*Modigliani* - I've not always fallen totally in love with the Modigliani's recordings (but they are always at least very good). However this tour de force actually made me say "wow" out loud. Incredible sonics, amazing use of dynamics and a recorded sound that had me open-mouthed at times., the Modiglianis give a reading that's never brash but has an edge that is not only powerful but provides moments of incredible beauty. I loved every minute of this reactive recording and immediately played it again. As tearfully beautiful as the Brodskys were in the 3rd movement they still didn't beat the Modiglianis in one of the finest single movements I've ever heard. If you have a streaming service sample it on there. A stonking triumph.

To finish I just want to mention a real ourtider. The *Brooklyn Rider* quartet (on their highly imaginative Dominant Curve album) give a completely out-there performance that you will either love or hate but you should hear as it's totally unlike any other recording available. With a purposely sinewy sound, the Brooklyns attack the Debussy in punk-stylee. I'm not sure what I think of it, as it's quite a culture shock, but have a listen for yourself. If nothing it's not boring!


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## HenryPenfold

Wow! Thank you so much Merl for your Herculean efforts!

Very interesting perspectives, extremely stimulating. 

I must listen again to the Kodaly on Naxos (my first purchase of this music, many moons ago) as I dismissed them quickly and unceremoniously in the light of my more recent acquisitions (Belcea & Quartetto Italiano). I have now discovered that I also have the Melos recording, and will give that a whirl.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> *Modigliani* - I've not always fallen totally in love with the Modigliani's recordings (but they are always at least very good). However this tour de force actually made me say "wow" out loud. Incredible sonics, amazing use of dynamics and a recorded sound that had me open-mouthed at times., the Modiglianis give a reading that's never brash but has an edge that is not only powerful but provides moments of incredible beauty. I loved every minute of this reactive recording and immediately played it again. As tearfully beautiful as the Brodskys were in the 3rd movement they still didn't beat the Modiglianis in one of the finest single movements I've ever heard. If you have a streaming service sample it on there. A stonking triumph.


Thank you, Merl! Your reviews are always a great highlight for me.

Unfortunately, I can't find the Modigliani recording on Spotify, Amazon Music, or Qobuz. I have active subscriptions on all three services, and I know to try a few different ways to find things because the search engines aren't always perfect.

I may just be having a flake day today -- can anyone else here find this recording?


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl, great job as always. Looks like I *need* to pick up a couple new albums!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Thank you, Merl! Your reviews are always a great highlight for me.
> 
> Unfortunately, I can't find the Modigliani recording on Spotify, Amazon Music, or Qobuz. I have active subscriptions on all three services, and I know to try a few different ways to find things because the search engines aren't always perfect.
> 
> I may just be having a flake day today -- can anyone else here find this recording?


Steve, here's the link for the Modigliani on Spotify.






As far as the Kodaly is concerned it's not that it's a 'mind-blowing' recording, it's just that it makes so much natural sense to me. The whole recording has an almost live feel to it and you can tell the quartet have a deep love for this piece and are really enjoying playing it. There's no point in it that I felt there was a single poor choice or the performance was being forced. I got the same feeling from the Shostakovich Quartet's Borodin 2 recording of a quartet completely at ease with what they are doing. As a listener I feel that makes you relax and be as one with what you are hearing. Others may not hear that and that's fine. I'd be really interested in others comments here. As I said earlier, btw, the biggest deal-breaker in this quartet was very dry sound which really makes this quartet sound awful. I make no apologies that there are fewer older recordings here than usual. It was just the way it panned out. I'm sure that will change by the next quartet review. Also interesting that although I rated the Modigliani top this time I jettisoned their Ravel coupling during the Ravel rundown (even though it was a fine one). After playing their Saint-Saens recording from the same disc (which is similarly superb) I may have to revisit their Ravel, now.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Steve, here's the link for the Modigliani on Spotify.


Thank you, Merl, but I'm getting the grayed-out tracks which usually means the record company has restricted which regions can listen to it. Which would explain why I couldn't find it if it's not available in America! (Fellow yanks on the board, be aware. I may have to go and buy the damned CD now! That'll show 'em!)


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## SearsPoncho

Thank you, Merl! This thread is great because we are not only learning more about music, we're learning about the different string quartet ensembles. With the exception of a few big names from the major labels (e.g., Emersons, Takacs), string quartet ensembles are not nearly as well known as the big orchestras, conductors or soloists. 

Another winner. Thanks to BlackAdderLXX for the deep dive into Debussy!


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## Carmina Banana

Merl, 
You have inspired me to track down some of these recordings. I can’t wait to hear some of your favorites.

From my listening so far, I hear some groups that feature the color, mood and atmosphere; and some that go for the grit and excitement. Having both, of course, is ideal, but I think they usually lean one way or the other. 
One recording that gets a lot of the color and mood for me is the Hagen Quartet. It might lack some of the excitement and directness of the Kodaly but the players have some amazing sensitivity.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> From my listening so far, I hear some groups that feature the color, mood and atmosphere; and some that go for the grit and excitement. Having both, of course, is ideal, but I think they usually lean one way or the other.


And both approaches are equally valid, it's just down to how well its carried off. The Avalon recording, for example, is warmly romantic without ever being schmaltzy. At the extreme other end you get the Brooklyn Rider account (I'm still not sure but I admire this approach). For one that blends both admirably you'd be looking at quartets like the Alban Bergs, here. We listen to these quartets and each one tries to make a connection with us. Sometimes we get that instant connection because of the recorded sound, a perceived warmth of playing or superb technical prowess but it's highly personal. I hope that comes across in my reviews, which are usually from a wide variety of styles. Hopefully you'll find something in my picks that will resonate with you.


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## Malx

Darn you Merl you are costing me money again - I've now listened a couple of times each to the Modigliani, Hermes and the Brooklyn Rider recordings on Qobuz. I've ordered the Modigliani as it has an almost perfect balance, the Hermes initially had me impressed but ultimately I went with the Modigliani (I drew the line at ordering one). As for the Brooklyn - well it is certainly different, safe to say not a central recommendation, but always great to hear different takes on a piece.


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## Burbage

It's that time of the week again, so, as it's become a habit, here's my contribution.

Like many, I started out with a fairly indifferent view of this quartet. It's a great impressionist piece, but not as obviously gripping as the Ravel, and has infested my collection by way of Milhaud or Dutilleux or Garrop, rather than any love for itself.

I'm not sure if that's entirely down to the final movement, or because Debussy's aiming for a different sort of music here. But, listening closely to the finale, I don't hear what's wrong with it. To my mind, the frog-croaks of the cello, the dancing rythms, the chorale-like outbursts and the defiant peal of bells at the end are nicely Haydnesqe - as is the 'recitative-like opening'*. It recasts much preceding material into something quite different. And, perhaps I should give a trigger warning here, it's as much Mahlerian as Beethovenian or Wagnerian.

All of which might seem a bit odd. But at the time, I gather, Debussy was caught up in a Franco-Germanic struggle and, after a brief infatuation with Wagner, wanted to wrest the laurels from the stuffy musical establishment and drive ahead in something new. So why all the harking back? Given this is Debussy's only piece with a key in the title, or an opus number, which is all terribly conventional, it seems he was, as they say in espionage circles, establishing a legend. Or, in the plaintive language of our times, curating a personal brand.

And that, I think, is why he wrote it, as an 'establishing piece', designed to throw down a gauntlet. He was at least as good as the rest of them, and more adventurous to boot. As if to reinforce that, it seems to do all the conventional things, but also doesn't. I think that was the point. And, presumably, why its first glorious performance seems to have been received less than politely . Though that might also be because it's tricky to play.

True, he needn't have written a quartet. But, prior to this, I gather he'd been working on an opera, or ballet or something and, despite his efforts, it still had too much Wagner in it. As my grandmother might have said, if she'd been a little wiser: "if you can't beat them, go do something else". So writing a quartet, especially writing one for a well-known ensemble, wouldn't have seemed a bad idea. Especially as Franck, a representative of one of the factions Debussy hoped to usurp, had produced a quartet just three years before which had, at last, established his public reputation as a composer to be reckoned with. At which point he promptly died. I suspect Debussy, tiring of flitting between the shadows of his elders in the salons of Paris, was as keen to beat them at that game as at any other, preferably long before he himself was planning to turn up his toes.

I've now, in modest homage to Merl's technique, put my three recordings back to back and listened to them three times through, movement by movement and twice, all while staring at the score. And, after all that, I'm not much wiser. I've noticed that the cellist has to play in three clefs, which I gather is annoying for cellists. And that, despite the clearly-marked tempi, with metronome settings as well as adjectives, there's a lot of room for judgement, too, depending on how 'peu' you think 'un peu' should be. Opinions differ, it seems, to the tune of at least a minute in the third movement, though I can't say I'd noticed before. Somehow, they all seem to work.

Or, at least, work in parts. I supect no performance or recording will bring everything out entirely. Subtle differences make a big difference to the overall impression, and even the alleged best can sometimes swallow their trills or blunt their szforzandi (though I'm sure we can blame the engineers for some of that). Some march through the "tempo rubato" sections more blithely than others, and cellists seem to interpret "en dehors" very differently (I think it means the cello should float their line marginally above the rest, rather than sound as if they've stepped out back for a smoke). But, though I was tempted to seek out a few more recordings, I'd become so obsessed with the articulation of triplets, I guessed it best to stop. Those who inspect the things they love too critically end up having to sleep in the woods. So, for what it's worth, I started out really liking the Avalon and not caring much for the Galatea, and then decided the Arcanto rendition pleased me best. And now I'm not sure.

Each recording contains plenty of magnificent moments, where everything comes together beautifully but (pace Merl and the Modiglianis, who I haven't heard), I'm not sure there will be a recording, or performance, that will quite manage that throughout. Where they don't (which is quite often for one of them, admittedly), the impression of aimless or experimental noodling can be hard to resist. Which is probably why I started out with a similar take on this that others had. But, as I hinted, I've changed my mind.

_* For this quote, and much else, I've shamelessly pillaged a lecture by Professor Roger Parker, which can be found (with transcript) at: https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/debussy-quartet-in-g-minor-op-10_


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> And both approaches are equally valid, it's just down to how well its carried off. The Avalon recording, for example, is warmly romantic without ever being schmaltzy. At the extreme other end you get the Brooklyn Rider account (I'm still not sure but I admire this approach). For one that blends both admirably you'd be looking at quartets like the Alban Bergs, here. We listen to these quartets and each one tries to make a connection with us. Sometimes we get that instant connection because of the recorded sound, a perceived warmth of playing or superb technical prowess but it's highly personal. I hope that comes across in my reviews, which are usually from a wide variety of styles. Hopefully you'll find something in my picks that will resonate with you.


I am intrigued by the Brooklyn Rider recording. I'll have to check that out.
I listened to the Modgliani this morning and it is beautiful and unique. There is a transparency to their sound. You can hear everything-all of the fine grain, but it also has a sheen of loveliness. The character of themes and sections is always very clear. A lot of thought went into it.
Highlights for me: the first movement towards the end where it says "a tempo rubato." They pull this way back and the gradual build to the end is very effective; the pizzicato section towards the end of the second movement is so mysterious and magical; the beginning of the third movement is absolutely ethereal; the last movement after the intro when that theme kicks in-very exciting and, I don't know, threatening maybe? All of this is from musicians deciding to really establish a character for sections instead of just playing notes.
If I had to put it in a camp I guess I would say more color and mood. For one thing, the last movement is not a headlong sweep to the end, but a little picking daisies along the way. 
One little thing that was slightly distracting was the breathing that got picked up. I used to know an excellent violinist who made this exact sound. Maybe it is a violinist thing.
Overall, I agree this a great recording and well worth investing in. So glad you recommended!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Malx said:


> ultimately I went with the Modigliani (I drew the line at ordering one).


This is how it's done right here.


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## HenryPenfold

Carmina Banana said:


> From my listening so far, I hear some groups that feature the color, mood and atmosphere; and some that go for the grit and excitement. Having both, of course, is ideal, but I think they usually lean one way or the other.


Interesting. I wonder if there's a parallel with the romantic/modern possibilities with this quartet. I have listened to Quartetto Italiano, Belcea, Modigliano and Melos, and I am tending towards the more colouristically, romantic approach of the Italianos.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Some truly excellent comments this week! Honestly, I don't have much more to add in terms of either the work itself or recordings. But I will say that everyone who loves this quartet needs to hear at least the slow movement by the Calvet. Historical recordings are a major interest for me so maybe I'm biased, but I haven't heard any other rendition that transports me to luscious, pillowy French Impressionist heaven so convincingly.


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## Helgi

I’ve been listening to Ebene mostly but also Belcea, Quartetto Italiano and the Jerusalem.

My attention tends to wander in the fourth movement but I only realised it after reading your comments about it. It requires a shift in perspective and a conscious effort (for me at least) after the more easily satisfying second and third movements, both of which are really wonderful. I found that the Quartetto Italiano make it sound more convincing as a whole than the others I’ve listened to.

Alas, I’ve been a bit lazy in exploring different recordings this week but after reading Merl’s review I’m excited to check some of these out!

:tiphat:


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## Josquin13

Merl writes,

"Orpheus Quartet (Channel Classics)
I bought this disc initially for the Dutilleux recording, then discovered the Ravel as being of good quality - and it is not a great surprise to me that their Debussy recording is also very good. They may be a little understated but the whole seems to flow well and the fourth movement on this recording seems to fit better with the other three."

I'm finding that's common among current day groups that they're "a little understated". The Jerusalem Quartet, for instance, likewise gives a very fine reading, but their interpretation is slightly more restrained and tempered than what you hear from the quartets of the past. It seems that the modern groups have an uneasy relationship to romanticism, and especially late romanticism. Yet, Debussy's quartet does have elements of late romanticism, undeniably so. The modern attack is also more incisive, and cooler, and the ensemble often more impressively virtuosic than the earlier groups. I'm not saying they miss the content of the music, they don't. But at the same time, they don't have quite the same degree of expression or free range of human feeling in their playing that the earlier groups bring out in this music, and those elements are a part of the quartet, in my view.

As for the 4th movement being separate from the other three movements, or seemingly detached, it isn't separate thematically or structurally from the first two movements. Rather, it's the 3rd movement of the quartet that has no thematic or structural links to the 1st, 2nd, and 4th movements. In other words, unlike the 1st and 2nd movements, which are closely connected, there are no thematic connections between Debussy's 3rd movement and the rest of the quartet. Therefore, the 4th movement only seems to be a departure from the rest of the quartet because the 3rd movement is still fresh in the listener's mind. Which may be why people have thought the 4th movement sounds set apart. Nevertheless, Debussy does return to some of his thematic material from the first two movements in the 4th movement. For example, the opening of the 4th movement is constructed from the original theme of the 1st movement.

Original theme in the first movement: 



Opening of the 4th movement, which is constructed out of the originating theme in the 1st movement: 




I find it fascinating that Debussy doesn't entirely share Ravel's compliance to classical formal patterns. He's not as concerned with linking his four movements together, as Ravel is in his quartet. (Which may be connected to why people tend to prefer Ravel's quartet.) For example, in Ravel's 3rd movement he frequently quotes from the opening theme of his 1st movement.

Ravel, 1st movement: 



Ravel, 3rd movement: 




In that sense, Ravel is more of a classical composer than Debussy. When Debussy came to compose his quartet in 1893, he was already beginning to feel the need to break away from the western musical aesthetic. He had previously heard Javanese Gamelan music at the 1889 Paris Exposition and that experience had profoundly changed how he viewed the western canon and its rules, which he'd been resistant towards or at odds with. His further rebellion would only intensify when he eventually heard a full Gamelan orchestra at the 1900 Paris Exposition. Therefore, the lack of thematic links between his 3rd movement and the rest of his quartet may demonstrate how the younger Debussy's musical aesthetic was already beginning to shift away from the classical tradition, as early as 1893; giving us a hint of his willingness to break away from western rules to explore a non-western, Gamelan inspired aesthetic: One that he later would claim was more tied to nature and the cosmos than anything in the western canon. And yet a strong link to romanticism remains in this quartet, or co-exists, but in a more subtle way than years later with his 1898 Pelleas et Melisande and 1903 Estampes, when the Gamelan influence on Debussy's music became stronger and was more obvious & profound.

Ravel too was inspired by Gamelan music--especially in his 1910-11 ballet, Ma Mere l'oye (in the "Laideronnette, Empress of the Pagodas" movement: 



), his 1908 Gaspard de la Nuit, and the 2nd "Tres rythmé" movement of his String Quartet (in homage to Debussy?): 



. But he never took the aesthetic quite as far as Debussy, as it didn't pervade his whole musical aesthetic--on a cosmic level, as it did Debussy's. For Ravel, it remained more of a superficial influence. Unlike Debussy, he continued to remain a western composer who, in his own words, was descended artistically from François Couperin. In other words, Ravel didn't see himself as a "modern" composer. Indeed, I don't think any scholar has ever claimed that Ravel gave birth to the modern age, as they have for Debussy. Since, despite how richly imaginative Ravel's works can be, his music is comfortably built upon the traditions of the past, with only the occasional orientalist or Jazz influence. It would be very interesting to see if, in a poll, those listeners that are more sympathetic to 20th century music might prefer Debussy's quartet over Ravel's. I bet they do (& vice versa).

As for the recordings that I've listened to this week, the Melos Quartett recording greatly impressed me. (I agree with Allegro Con Brio's comments.) They play with an incredible amount of spontaneity! (which is rare, and shouldn't be under estimated in Debussy's music), imagination, & insight. It's wonderful music making, and here I agree with the old Penquin Guide, who gave the LP a rosette back in the 1980s. Although, this is another case where a quartet's Debussy is better than their Ravel (not that the Melos' Ravel is bad, it isn't, but you can do better...).

I also listened to the Ysaÿe Quartet's Decca studio recording (as opposed to their live Wigmore Hall account) and the Galimir Quartet. I get what people are saying about the Ysaÿe recording (if you're listening to the Decca studio account?), they're not as lithe or nimble as other groups in the 1st movement, for instance, and one reason is that they play with a greater tonal heft. As a result, the playing is a bit more relaxed and more 'orchestral' sounding: which I can find appropriate in both the Debussy & Ravel quartets at times: since, to my ears, these works sound like they are written more on an orchestral scale than many of the quartets in the German repertory (with the exception of Beethoven's late SQs, and Schubert's last SQ, no. 15). But the Ysaÿes don't lack virtuosity. What I like about their reading is that they phrase differently from the other groups. Their phrasing strikes me as being more French sounding and idiomatic than the others I've heard so far. Being native born French speakers may give the Ysaÿes an advantage over the Germans, for instance. After all, a composer's native language does play an integral role in how they phrase musically, and Debussy was no exception. Granted, the Ysaÿe's interpretation does sound different at times, but I thought their phrasing was especially interesting in the scherzo: 



. (In my view, German & Austrian ensembles often play French music extremely well, but their phrasing seldom sounds very French or idiomatic to me...)

As for the Galimir Quartet, they're more focused on the content of the music than showing off their virtuosity. It's the opposite of a slick interpretation, & firmly at the other end of the spectrum from the Guarneri Quartet's Debussy, for example. I find them deeply musical. It would be easy to underestimate this performance on first impression. But there's a gentle humanity in their reading that makes this performance unique and special, for me. I'm not saying it's a first choice, I don't think it is--after all, Felix Galimir was in his 70s at the time (having been born in 1910), but I'm glad that I own it.

I should point out that the 1st incarnation of the Galimir Quartet of Vienna had worked under Ravel's supervision when they recorded his quartet in 1936. So, their approach to Debussy's SQ may be more authentic to the earlier Parisian era of Debussy & Ravel than any other group that has recorded these quartets in the digital era. Therefore, their performance is worth hearing (see the You Tube links on my previous post, if interested.)

Still to go on my list: the Parkanyi Quartet, Orlando Quartet, Alban Berg Quartet, Ebene Quartet, Quartetto Italiano, and Chilingirian Quartet recordings. And, if I have the time, I'll try to hear the historical recordings by the Calvet and Curtis quartets. However, I'm already leaning towards those quartets that bring a greater tonal heft to this music and therefore sound more 'orchestral' in their approach, and also bring out the romantic elements (or human feeling) in the music more fully. With that in mind, I expect that the Parkanyi, Melos, Ysaÿe (studio account), Alban Berg, Orlando, and Italian quartets will all figure high on my list of favorites (despite that I think highly of the Ebene, Jerusalem, & Orpheus Quartet recordings, as well).

Obviously, I'm not going to get around to comparing a bunch of recordings of Debussy's late Sonata for Flute, Harp, and Viola, as I had hoped. That was too ambitious for one week's listening. (I don't know how Merl does it!) I could continue with my Debussy listening next week? & maybe write one follow up post that compares a selection of the late sonata recordings in my collection, if anyone's interested...

P.S. The excellent link that Allegro Con Brio provided mentions that after the premiere of Debussy's quartet by the original Ysaÿe Quartet, Debussy told its 1st violinist that he had "played like a pig". What always gets left out from this anecdote is that the leader of the group was the violinist Eugéne Ysaÿe! Oh, I would have loved to have seen Ysaÿe's reaction... 



.


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## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> So what team are we supposed to be rooting for? We want Merl's final notes asap but I don't know who "City" is. Just an ignorant American basketball fan.
> 
> But seriously...
> 
> I never really had a problem with the finale of the Debussy, I just think it's hard to pull off well. Interestingly enough, I love the Ravel String Quartet but I always feel slightly let down by the finale of that quartet.


I've only just seen this post, or I'd have helped out before. The team you will be rooting for for the rest of your life is Manchester United.


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## HenryPenfold

Is the Orpheus Quartet associated any way with the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra?


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## Merl

I want to hear that Parkanyi, Jos. I said that for the Ravel SQ too. Sounds interesting. I'd like to hear the Ysaye's live version too to see if it improves on their studio account. Apparently, according to a review I've just read, it does. I share your enthusiasm for the Galimir performance too, Jos. There's nothing I listed earlier that I wouldn't be happy to own. The margins between the very best and the ones I put lower down are small and it's really down to personal preference. I agree about how modern quartets play it too but I like the newer approach
One of the oldest versions I liked that didn't make the list by a short measure was the Pascal Quartet's 1950 account but the 3rd movement totally ruined it for me. Till then they were in the bidding. I've just got hold of a few otgers that I didn't have at hand to review (Parrenin, Curtis) so I'll give them a try tomorrow and let you know if they would have made the final list.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Did you guys listen to any Schubert quartets? I like the Melos quartet and Leipziger Quartett recordings. There is some nice music apart from the usual late quartets too!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Did you guys listen to any Schubert quartets? I like the Melos quartet and Leipziger Quartett recordings. There is some nice music apart from the usual late quartets too!


We did Schubert 15 almost a year ago. If you want to get on board and join the order of nominators, let me know


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## Allegro Con Brio

Also, weekly reminder: *starthrower* is on deck for next week.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Listened to Emerson this week. I love their playing but they come off a bit too pretty for me compared to say Hermes or Ebene. Still a good recording but not my favorite one.


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Also, weekly reminder: *starthrower* is on deck for next week.


I changed my mind on a quartet in the last minute and I'm putting some material together so I'll post something tomorrow.


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## Helgi

The 3rd movement with the Modigliani is _stunning_


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Allegro Con Brio said:


> We did Schubert 15 almost a year ago. If you want to get on board and join the order of nominators, let me know


I wasn't aware that this was that kind of thread. I'd like to get on board!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I wasn't aware that this was that kind of thread. I'd like to get on board!


This is the best thread on TC. Welcome to the party!


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## sbmonty

Enjoying this weeks discussion immensely. So many insightful comments. I've listened to the Melos, Ebēme and Takács this week, all of which I already owned. Really enjoying the Modigliani's recording, which I'm listening to as I type. Later today will be the Jerusalem's version and the Hermès Quartet. Those have been on my radar for awhile. So many lovely recordings.
Great week. Thanks to all!


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## sbmonty

Helgi said:


> The 3rd movement with the Modigliani is _stunning_


Definitely agree with you Helgi.


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## Carmina Banana

HenryPenfold said:


> Interesting. I wonder if there's a parallel with the romantic/modern possibilities with this quartet. I have listened to Quartetto Italiano, Belcea, Modigliano and Melos, and I am tending towards the more colouristically, romantic approach of the Italianos.


In a certain way I think we are talking about similar things. I think the title of the piece could influence the performers. If this were called Translucent Clouds at Sunset, a quartet might play it differently than Quartet in g minor, opus 10.


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## starthrower

This week's selection is another firmly established work but not nearly as widely recorded as the Debussy quartet. I've chose Alban Berg's six-movement *Lyric Suite* composed in 1925-26. The title is derived from Zemlinky's Lyric Symphony of which an excerpt is twice quoted in the fourth movement, Adagio appassionato. Decades later in the 1970s the secret inspiration for the work was uncovered by the composer and musicologist George Perle. Berg had fallen in love with Hanna Fuchs- Robbetin, a married woman, during a visit to her and her husband's home. Quite simply, Berg's passion for Hanna consumed him and there are many elements built into the score to express his obsession. One of these is the secret alternate final movement largo desolato with soprano vocal. You can listen to it performed by the Emerson's with Renee Fleming. 




The whole story and resulting complex work is rather long and complicated but I discovered a wonderful Lecture / Recital on YouTube that tells the tale quite articulately with the participation of the Tana String Quartet and soprano, Julia Sitkovetsky. They perform the entire work in the last half hour of this excellent presentation which is highly recommended for the unfamiliar. You'll need to forward past the 6 minute mark of this upload to get to the starting point.






I also enjoy this excellent 1970 live performance by the Julliard Quartet. And from what I've read the 1974 Teldec recording by the Viennese quartet named after the composer is another fine rendition. I have two recordings in my collection including the ABQ's second recording for EMI, and the excellent recent Emerson Quartet CD with the vocal movement.






For those who don't have time for the 1:30 minute video presentation, here are a couple of links with some background on this Second Viennese quartet influenced by Schoenberg's 12 tone system. I find the sound world and expressive nature of this quartet quite satisfying and I hope you can enjoy it on some level.
https://www.brentanoquartet.com/notes/alban-berg-lyric-suite/
https://www.laphil.com/musicdb/pieces/472/lyric-suite


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yes! I was right on the verge of nominating this one. Throughout this year I’ve developed quite a passion for the second Viennese school. Earlier this week I listened to Wozzeck for the first time and thought it was absolutely gripping. Berg’s musical language is so rich and beautiful, not abrasive at all. Really looking forward to this one.


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## starthrower

I'm glad to hear it, ACB! I'm a huge fan of Wozzeck as well. And I'm glad I decided on the Lyric Suite last evening. The music of the Second Viennese composers has always resonated deeply with me whether or not I'm on a modern music kick or listening to older music. It just seems to hit the spot whenever I listen to a piece. And Berg may be the easiest to get into of the three big composers.


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## Merl

I was speaking to Knorf prior to his pick and he nearly chose this one too, ST. I have a few (the Emerson recording is on the car USB right now) including Kronos, Juilliard and Tetzlaff so looking forward to giving this a going over. Nice one, ST.


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## SearsPoncho

starthrower said:


> I'm glad to hear it, ACB! I'm a huge fan of Wozzeck as well. And I'm glad I decided on the Lyric Suite last evening. The music of the Second Viennese composers has always resonated deeply with me whether or not I'm on a modern music kick or listening to older music. It just seems to hit the spot whenever I listen to a piece. And Berg may be the easiest to get into of the three big composers.


This one was on my nominating list as well. Much of Berg's music sounds romantic to me; I don't believe it's too difficult to enjoy once you get used to it. To be honest, I find much of his music a continuation of Mahler, or perhaps the next stage in an evolution, and much closer to Mahler's romantic aesthetic than Schoenberg. For me, he's easily the best of the 2nd Viennese school.

I have the Lasalle Quartet's recording.

Ok, I have to scratch this one off my nominating list. Excellent choice, Starthrower!


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> I was speaking to Knorf prior to his pick and he nearly chose this one too, ST. I have a few (the Emerson recording is on the car USB right now) including Kronos, Juilliard and Tetzlaff so looking forward to giving this a going over. Nice one, ST.


This is true, I nearly did, very nearly. And I'll say this: in my opinion, Berg's _Lyric Suite_ might be the greatest string quartet of the Twentieth Century.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> This is true, I nearly did, very nearly. And I'll say this: in my opinion, Berg's _Lyric Suite_ might be the greatest string quartet of the Twentieth Century.


That's a bold statement Knorfy! When you said you were going to pick this I actually made the list out in preparation (I didn't tell you that, did I?) so here's the list I came up with. I've probably missed some or got some wrong so please tell me ASAP so I can edit the list straight away, folks
Not easy when you have some quartets who have recorded it multiple times.

Galimir (1935)
Galimir (1983)
Pro arte (1926)
Pro Arte (1950)
Peo Arte (1960)
La Salle (1958)
La Salle (1972)
La Salle (1987)
Arditti (1994)
Ramor (1961)
Juilliard (1950)
Juilliard (1961)
Juilliard (1970)
Juilliard (1996)
Alban Berg (1974)
Alban Berg (1992)
Artis (1990)
Ludwig (1991)
Vogler (1991)
Prazak (1993)
Duke (1997)
Leipziger (2000)
Kronos (2003)
Schoenberg (2001)
Oslo (2004)
New Zealand (2007)
Diotima (2010)
Tetzlaff (2014)
Gerhard (2017)
Emerson (2015)
Novus (2019)
Cecilia (2013)
Belcea (2015)
Kyndel (2002)
Psophos (2007)


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## starthrower

If you're listening closely during the last movement you'll hear Berg quote the opening to Wagner's prelude to Tristan und Isolde. He no doubt viewed his secret love affair with Hanna as a parallel to the fateful tale.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> That's a bold statement Knorfy!


Oh, I'm well aware! And yet I stand by it. I never make such statements lightly, especially in a century of string quartets written by the likes of Janáček, Bartók, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Hindemith, Ligeti, Villa-Lobos, Revueltas, Britten, Gubaidulina, Rihm, Schnittke, Ferneyhough, Crawford Seeger, Berio, to name a few, not to mention Webern and Schönberg...


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## starthrower

ABQ has two recordings. The second for EMI in 1992.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> ABQ has two recordings. The second for EMI in 1992.


Thanks ST
Added to the list


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## HenryPenfold

Another excellent choice, IMO.

I haven't too many recordings:

*LaSalle Quartet* (December 1968) (instrumental 6th mvt, no vocal) Deutsche Grammophon

*Quatuor Diotima* & Marie-Nicole Lemieux, contralto (no instrumental 6th mvt) Naive

*Emerson String Quartet* (has both instrumental & vocal 6th mvt: Renée Fleming, soprano) Deutsche Grammophon

This is a another work that for many years I was more than happy with the LaSalle Quartet, only adding the other two more latterly.

I am never sure whether I prefer this work with the vocals in the 6th movement or simply instrumental. *I will be very interested in other people's views in this matter.*


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## starthrower

Here's an interesting analysis page with an abundance of links for further reading. It also includes a discography.
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Lyric_Suite_(Berg)

I view the vocal movement as an added dimension to the work but I'm perfectly happy to listen to the ABQ's instrumental recording. Both this one (EMI) and the Emerson CD have great sound.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Wiki article for this one is actually pretty informative. I find it interesting that Theodor Adorno called it a "latent opera."


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## Carmina Banana

starthrower said:


> If you're listening closely during the last movement you'll hear Berg quote the opening to Wagner's prelude to Tristan und Isolde. He no doubt viewed his secret love affair with Hanna as a parallel to the fateful tale.


I heard it! It is amazing how that chord is so recognizable. I kind of brushed it off while listening, thinking it was a coincidence, but then I noticed your comment.


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## SearsPoncho

starthrower said:


> If you're listening closely during the last movement you'll hear Berg quote the opening to Wagner's prelude to Tristan und Isolde. He no doubt viewed his secret love affair with Hanna as a parallel to the fateful tale.


Most definitely! It's at the 3:10 mark of the final movement in the recording I have, which is the 1971 LaSalle Quartet disc.


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## StevehamNY

I listened to the Emerson, ABQ (first), and New Zealand recordings of the Lyric Suite today, am appreciating this piece in a way I never did before, so thanks! 

(It's been a listening arc similar to the Bartok quartets, I think. I didn't get the Bartoks for a good while until finally they just clicked and now you'll never get me to part with the Vegh set. I'm approaching the same place with the Berg, but I don't have a favorite recording yet. Can't wait for Merl's roundup!) 

(Oh, and only because it was specifically asked: Put me down for a polite "No, thank you" on the vocal version of the last movement.)


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hello boys and girls! I'm listening to the lyric suite with the Leipzigers right now and heard the Emersons last night. I found an article in the Guardian for some background info. Also read about it at universal editions. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/may/06/a-small-monument-to-love-alban-bergs-great-row-about-an-affair


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

StevehamNY said:


> (Oh, and only because it was specifically asked: Put me down for a polite "No, thank you" on the vocal version of the last movement.)


Yeah, I would agree. Renee Fleming puts on a heck of a performance, I can't deny that, but it's not my cup of tea. (This is with the Emersons, idk if you're listening to something else)


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## Merl

I'm another in the 'no thank you' camp on the vocal version. You know I'm not keen on classical vocal music at the best of times, no matter how beautifully the likes of Fleming and Upshaw sing. Thankfully, I can program it out on the Emerson recording (and when I ripped it to mp3 for the car I actually missed it out completely).


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## HenryPenfold

Listened over breakfast to LaSalle (Dec 1968) CD and Streamed via Qobuz the New Zealand String Quartet (Naxos), both without vocals. I must say that the New Zealand performance is excellent. Will be revisiting this recording often over the coming days.

I don't feel like I wish to hear the vocal 6th movement, but maybe that's because I'm in awe of the LaSalle & New Zealand performances this morning (yesterday I was very happy with the contributions of Marie-Nicole Lemieux (Diotima) and Renée Fleming (Emerson).


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## Merl

Today, I listened to 3 of the Juilliard's 4 recordings and the star of these was definitely the 50s recording which sounds excellent for its vintage. On the other hand the 60s recording is very dry and closely miked, allowing little air around the instruments to breathe. I really didn't like this account. I have the 70s recording but it's not a great account and pales in comparison to their 1950 Columbia performance. Got a pile to listen to tomorrow and I might be able to listen to a few later. We'll see.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> Today, I listened to 3 of the Juilliard's 4 recordings and the star of these was definitely the 50s recording which sounds excellent for its vintage.


Has this ever been issued on CD? I found a couple of uploads at YouTube. One is cleaned up with the high end rolled off and sounds terrible. But the noisy LP version sounds okay.


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## Merl

The one I listened to was on Spotify, ST, and is under the title 'Berg and Webern Juilliard String Quartet Columbia masterworks recordings 1950-52'. I looked for it online but could only find it at a website called gaana.com . It may be something that's been compiled for streaming only. It sounds really good, tbh.









Edit; I've just been investigating and it's the same one from the set below (it's not just all Schoenberg on those 3 cds). Sound is similarly really good too. Top end doesn't sound rolled off to me. It's got lots of presence.


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## ELbowe

Another week of not having the work in the collection! Last week was so much fun...spoiled for choice.... belated thanks to BlackAdder! Just listening to Kronos Quartet (with Dawn Upshaw), enjoying it....but reminded I have some serious listening to do this coming week.


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## Merl

Just finished listening to the *Duke Quartet* courtesy of Spotify. A very enjoyable recording with plenty of depth and some fine, idiomatic playing. Before that it was the *Ludwig Quartet *who were altogether less convincing and far too light for such a work. I don't think they were helped by a recorded sound that was scratchy, scrawny and much too wiry. Ugh.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I took in the Juilliard's account on Sony (I'm guessing their later version) this afternoon. This is a _great_ recording to listen to through good headphones; it's very intimately recorded and has just the "quartet sitting in your listening room" sound that you want, allowing you to hear all the felicitous details. The playing, of course, is fantastic too, although I miss the earlier Juilliard style from their 50's and 60's group where they they had a special "French" lightness and improvisatory quality to my ears.

This is music that is exquisite and almost overwhelming in its proliferation of details. The word that comes to mind is "richness." Berg infuses the work with an extraordinary variety of textures, and it almost always seems like there is something contrapuntal going on. Like Bartok's quartets, Berg seems to have set out to exploit every single possibility of what four string instruments can do. It's impossible to comprehend all at once, and in that sense it is a perfect choice for continual revisiting and deep study. But yet it is also inviting enough to just close your eyes and soak it up without bothering about all the technical stuff. I'm also struck by the equilibrium of attractive Romantic elements, as SearsPoncho points out, and surprisingly progressive modernism. In many ways I thought this was one of the most forward-looking pieces from the 2VC that I have heard; there are passages (especially the third movement) that are highly reminiscent of Elliott Carter and the other contemporary quartets that we have heard.

Yet the "lyric" element always comes through. Berg was a master at those expressive, long-reaching melodies with roots in Mahler and Strauss, even if one has to slightly adjust the ear to get used to the tonal idiom. Though the quartets of Bartok and Shostakovich, along with many others in the century, are very dear to my heart, I have no qualms with Knorf's assessment that this is the greatest quartet of the last hundred years. It is a masterpiece of high musical art on both a formal and aesthetic level. It takes so much skill to work within such an idiom and make the results sound disciplined and beautiful rather than chaotic. Music like this is what makes it such a joy to discuss with folks on this thread!

One thing I'd be curious to hear opinions on is whether there is an overarching structure with common elements throughout the movements, or if, per its name, this is just a "suite" of unrelated pieces. It comes across more as the latter to me, but I know there are still many things I haven't yet picked up on. And I much prefer the non-vocal sixth movement. I listened to Renee Fleming sing the vocal version with the Emersons, and it was excellent, but it belongs in a song cycle rather than as a conclusion to an otherwise instrumental work.

And one more question: There is some sort of extended technique that I picked up on in the instrumental version of the finale. It occurs briefly around 2:05 in that Juilliard recording but probably around that time on others too. It didn't sound like any other technique I've ever heard.


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## starthrower

> One thing I'd be curious to hear opinions on is whether there is an overarching structure with common elements throughout the movements, or if, per its name, this is just a "suite" of unrelated pieces.


According to the description in the Brentano link I provided at the bottom of my initial post there is a thread of related material tying the movements together.

"*Besides the progression of mood, inclusion of material from each movement at some point in the following movement helps to bind the work together, giving it an organic sense of momentum." *


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## ELbowe

Initial listening just three performances I like the VI. movement version with Soprano (I surprised myself!) as I felt the voice added a unique texture after five movements with a true quartet. I have only listened to two vocal performances and liked Dawn Upshaw's subdued offering to Ms Flemings more robust performance ...I would like to hear Barbara Hannigan perform this. It was interesting that Emerson String Quartet recording offered two versions of VI. movement vocal and non-vocal.


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## Merl

I got to listen to quite a few recordings today. I started with the *Arditti* recording that was interesting but I'll have to give this another listen as there was something that didn't quite resonate with me first time. Perfectly fine effort, though. The *Emerson*'s classic account is easily recommendable (I have this one already). Its one of my fave Emersons recordings but I didn't let this prejudice me. However, when comparing this vibrant performance to the *Artis* account I preferred the more forthright style of the Emersons, even if the Artis did have some impressive playing (their pizzicatos are superb). The Emersons are given terrific sound too, offering a rich, realistic acoustic. The standard of playing on the *Tetzlaff* account, too, was highly impressive and you can't fault the beautiful recorded sound. This really is a top-notch version. I finished with both of the *Alban Berg Quartet*'s recordings. Strangely, I slightly preferred their 1974 Teldec recording. It's grittier, very intense and really well recorded, offering a wide soundstage. There was certainly nothing wrong with their 1994 recording either but the power and pacing of their earlier effort was a winning combination for me. The 1994 recording boasted better sound and 'dances' more but I liked the rougher hewn textures of their first attempt. I will be revisiting these by the end of the week so perhaps my views will change as the week goes on. Whatever the ABQ certainly have this music in their blood. I'm hoping to sample a few more later.

I must admit to usually preferring an earthier approach in the Lyric Suite but this could change with the right recording. Whether that is temporary or not I don't know.


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## starthrower

Nice critique, Merl! If I could only have one recording the Emerson's would serve me just fine. As you mentioned it's a stellar recording. With this quartet I want to hear every phrase sharply articulated and I think a sharp, bright sound works better. And the Emerson's prove satisfying from the opening phrase. Some ensembles play certain passages with a rather muddled approach. I barely noticed the Tristan motif in some performances. Or maybe it's just the way it's mixed or produced? I don't have the older ABQ recording but initially their later EMI performance sold me on this great work.

I couldn't get my Spotify app to work on my laptop yesterday but I'll try again to listen to that old Julliard recording and the '74 ABQ.


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## Helgi

I'm embarrassed to admit it but my immediate reaction to this is to give up and file it under _nonsense modernist cacophony I might learn to enjoy later_ 

However, I am curious to know why you guys like it so much. So I'm going to give it an effort to see if it starts opening up for me.

I've listened to the '74 Alban Berg Quartett recording so far.


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## starthrower

Immediate reactions can be misleading. I'd say keep listening. It may grow on you or it may not but there's no way to absorb and process a piece like this after one or two listens.


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## SearsPoncho

This one grows on you, like all Berg's music. The 4th movement is the heart and soul of this quartet and shows that a very romantic aesthetic can be achieved using the dodecaphonic method. I think the 4th movement is one of the great successes of the 12-tone movement. 

We'll see who Merl picks, but I like my Berg with the sharp corners out, and the modern elements emphasized, not smoothed or rounded over.

Knorf: It's definitely in the conversation.

ACB: I also enjoy the counterpoint very much.


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## Helgi

Watched the Wigmore Hall lecture and there's certainly a lot packed into this work. All the 12-tone gymnastics and numerology are way over my head but it's interesting stuff.

Here's an article to go with the lecture:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...to-love-alban-bergs-great-row-about-an-affair

VH-1 pop up video, anyone?!


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## starthrower

Nice find, Helgi! I should read the Guardian more often.


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## Merl

Today I've had a good listen to the first recording I got of this, the *Kronos* one. I didn't much rate it when I got it many years ago and its still not a reading that impresses me much. It's not bad, tbh, but there are quartets who make this one more amenable to me. Perhaps it's the harsher, scratchier and more angular recording, I don't know but I'll still pass over it in the cd racks in the future. I tried to listen to the *Galimir*'s 1935 recording, just to see if there was anything I was missing in older performance style but the sound is absolutely dire and there was nothing I heard to mark it out from anyone else's more modern and far better recorded performance. The *Gerhards* play with flair but are captured a little distantly so I wasn't wholly convinced by their realisation. Again, nothing wrong, just a preference for others with more fire / better recorded sound/ more impressive playing. Finally, I sampled the *LaSalle*'s well-known early 70s recording. Better playing, decent recording and more cohesion here but a little underplayed to my ancient ears. On the whole, not a very successful day. I've another lot to listen to either tonight or tomorrow.


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## Knorf

LaSalle "_underplayed_"?! 

Wow, you are grouchy today...


Maybe give that one a relisten when you're feeling a bit better.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> LaSalle "_underplayed_"?!
> 
> Wow, you are grouchy today...
> 
> 
> Maybe give that one a relisten when you're feeling a bit better.


Yeah, maybe I was a bit grouchy after listening to so many average versions, perhaps it was because I listened in the car or maybe it was the Spotify recording but it was very un-LaSalle like. Strange. I usually rate the LaSalles. 

Edit; t*he reason it was very unlike the LaSalles is because it wasn't their performance!* How embarrassing! Just checked my Spotify and I was playing that Ludwig Quartet performance again, from the other day. Shows you how tired I am tonight. I'll clear my playlist and set the LaSalles up to listen to later. Hahaha. Sorry everyone (especially Knorf). I would have realised tomorrow morning, anyway. So LaSalles and New Zealand are cued up next. I have my time out of class Thursday so should be able to relisten to a few and sum up by then.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> I usually rate the LaSalles.


I know! This is why I'm puzzled; also, for me, their _Lyric Suite_ is one of the best. To be fair, you've listened to many more than I have. However, I think I can recognize a great performance when I hear it...


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> I know! This is why I'm puzzled; also, for me, their _Lyric Suite_ is one of the best. To be fair, you've listened to many more than I have. However, I think I can recognize a great performance when I hear it...


And the Ludwig isn't a great recording. Haha. Playlist cleared (much to my embarassment). I would have realised anyway in the morning. I've just cued the Belcea up too. Those 3 are all highly rated so should be a better listen than today's disappointments. Hoping to squeeze one or more in later but I'm pretty tired. See if I get a second wind tonight. It seems that the earlier and later LaSalles recordings are rarer than rocking horse poo so I'll be lucky to hear them. Shame.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post. I did get a 2nd wind and picked up 3 recordings tonight and I'm so glad I did, as they are also very impressive in their different ways. Firstly (and eventually) I played the correct *LaSalle* DG recording. A hearty and committed account. Plenty of depth and a fine recording. Another that is easy to enjoy and recommend. The *Belceas* were technically and interpretivily very reactive to the moods in the suite and whilst this is a beautifully recorded disc there were times in the 3rd movement where I wish they'd been a little more 'mysterioso' and they seemed underemphasise a few small runs but this is still a lovely disc. Finally I got to sample the *New Zealand* quartet, a group who have impressed me in fine readings of the Debussy and Ravel SQs. This may even be a finer effort by them. There's a togetherness about this reading that I really liked. Their vision is intelligent and never sounds mannered or inadequate. It's such a fine reading that I've just ordered it secondhand (at £3 it was a steal). So glad Ive gone out on a high (although I still have time for one more so I may have to come back and edit this)

Edit: I fell asleep on the (new) settee (it's very comfy) shortly after finishing the Leipziger account, courtesy of Spotify. I expected this would be ar least good quality but it was even better than that. The *Leipzigers* take a more 'romantic', warmer approach here. Don't get me wrong this isn't mushy. It's impressively recorded and has enough beef and strength to keep everyone satisfied. I'll be returning to this classy performance again before my round-up.


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## starthrower

I read a glowing 10/10 review of the Leipzigers recording on the MD&G label. Speaking of romantic, have you listened to the Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos? Some of their other recordings I've bought have that feel to them.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I read a glowing 10/10 review of the Leipzigers recording on the MD&G label. Speaking of romantic, have you listened to the Schoenberg Quartet on Chandos? Some of their other recordings I've bought have that feel to them.


Ive just listened to the first movement on Spotify, ST. Sounds good up to now.The one I played before is even better. The *Prazak* quartet have a killer tone. They are fiery enough to please those who prefer a jauntier approach but have those little semi+romantic softer touches too. Very much in the vein of the Emersons, tbh, and with a similarly excellent soundstage.I thoroughly enjoyed this one. Recommended.


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## HenryPenfold

It would be wrong to say that I have a preference for the purely instrumental 6th movement, it's more that I have been really enjoying the performances of the LaSalle, Emerson and New Zealand quartets (a performance I only recently found) sans-singing and do not want to move away from what is really working for me.

One of the most rewarding things about focused listening over several days, is how one can properly get to grips with the architecture of the work in question. In the case of the Lyric Suite, I've found that there is a very strong unifying factor within each of the movements that I'd not hitherto picked up on. The more I listen, the more the work transforms from what was for me, a collection of 6 movements with interesting musical syntax, to a well-wrought musical whole; and the business of the quickening quick movements and the slowing slow movements adds to the integrity of the writing and is for me, no longer an entertaining gimmick.


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## Bwv 1080

Enjoyed the work, dont listen to enough Berg, but find that Henze has both everything I like and dont like in Berg ^2. Dont know why Henze's SQs dont get recorded, compare this to the Lyric Suite


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> This one grows on you, like all Berg's music. The 4th movement is the heart and soul of this quartet and shows that a very romantic aesthetic can be achieved using the dodecaphonic method. I think the 4th movement is one of the great successes of the 12-tone movement.


Agree on Berg growing on you, and beyond that this piece has really brought me back to his whole gang, to give them all another try. It's been a revelation, and just one more reason to appreciate this board and everyone here.

I believe the Schoenberg 2nd was surveyed here (before my time), but now I'm looking forward to someone picking out one of the Zemlinsky quartets -- if not his well-regarded 2nd then maybe his 4th, which memorializes Berg.


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## starthrower

> Dont know why Henze's SQs dont get recorded, compare this to the Lyric Suite


I tried to get hold of Henze's quartets several years ago but I couldn't find a reasonably priced copy. The only set I know of is on the Wergo label.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> .
> 
> .. One of the most rewarding things about focused listening over several days, is how one can properly get to grips with the architecture of the work in question. *In the case of the Lyric Suite, I've found that there is a very strong unifying factor* within each of the movements that I'd not hitherto picked up on. The more I listen, the more the work transforms from what was for me, a collection of 6 movements with interesting musical syntax, to a well-wrought musical whole... . .


Agree, but only in the better performances. For some of the others it still feels like 6 disparate movements. I think that's the problem I've always had with the Kronos disc.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> I tried to get hold of Henze's quartets several years ago but I couldn't find a reasonably priced copy. The only set I know of is on the Wergo label.


This is crazy. Just checked Amazon UK and all there is, is the Arditti set for £110.95! Presto has nothing. I stopped looking. We all need to write to Naxos and ask them to get a set out by next Wednesday.


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## Malx

This week I've listened a couple of times to my only recording of this piece - LaSalle and will concur with Henry's earlier comment that with repeated listens the whole becomes greater than the individual parts.
I have not gone beyond listening to the one recording I have on the shelves as this week for some reason my concentration levels aren't great - a mild reaction to the covid jag, maybe who knows.
Another work added to the growing list of things that merit further investigation.


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## Carmina Banana

I was about to about to post about how repeated listens has really helped me make sense of this piece. I see several others are feeling the same way.
I am not sure I see as much connection between the pieces—I think the term “suite” led me away from thinking in these terms—but I am hearing a lot more unity and clarity in each movement. 
I am currently listening to the LaSalle and really like it. They seem to take the descriptive titles of the movements to heart. For instance, this is only the only performance in which the first movement seems truly Jovial as in Allegretto Gioviale. 
I am gravitating toward the instrumental versions but I will have to say the Kronos with Dawn Upshaw is gorgeous! Renee is great, but I love how the Kronos/Upshaw rendition has the vocal just melting into the texture so naturally.

On a side note, I would like to know if anyone has an opinion on serial composition in general. Is it an experiment that failed? Is it an elegant solution to tonality, which played itself out and is no longer viable and we should all embrace it?


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## ELbowe

Really enjoying the exploration this week…Quartet Gerhard and Leipziger Streichquartett latest, both very good. I have really enjoyed the Soprano additions to some recordings (as mentioned above)….so far Dawn Upshaw (Kronos Quartet) is my favourite then Ms. Fleming (Emerson String Quartet) with Sandrine Piau (Quatuor Diotima)least favourite . Ms. Deasi is of the Cecilia Bartoli school of singing (OTT in my humble opinion) which I can’t handle. Was wondering what other recordings include soprano in the VI movement? Off the top I thought I was on to another one but it turned out the Soprano was used for only for "Three Pieces For String Quartet" (Langsam) on the album and not “Lyric Suite”. Thanks in advance..


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## Josquin13

Sorry to barge in on everyone's interesting Berg posts, but once again I find myself lagging behind the group. To finish up on my last week's Debussy listening: since my last post I've listened to the Orlando, Parkanyi, Alban Berg, Chilingirian, Kuijken, and Arcanto Quartet recordings. That is in addition to the recordings that I had already heard by the Melos, Galimir, Ebene, Orpheus, and Jerusalem Quartets. All of these groups play the quartet very well; hence, it gets nit picky trying to decide which are my favorites. As previously noted, I found that I tend to prefer interpretations that bring out the late romanticism in the quartet--since to my ears, there are stronger emotions being expressed in this music, which the more incisive, cooler, more modern sounding groups tend to slightly downplay (despite the excellence of their playing).

One small peeve that I've had concerns the opening movement. Debussy's marking is that it is to be played "animé et trés décidé" which translated means "lively and very decided (or assertively)". I found that some of the quartets didn't play the beginning of the movement with a strong enough sense of gusto & liveliness. Their interpretations came off as being too subdued, & a bit unassertive. I don't think that's what Debussy wanted at the very opening of his quartet. While other groups started the 1st movement with stronger dynamic emphases & accents--which made them sound more spontaneous & assertive, to my ears. Most of the quartets played the plucky, highly rhythmic second movement well. But not everyone was equal in the third movement, as some groups played it with a more engaging depth & sense of introspection. The Ebene Quartet, for instance, struck me as being too suavely on the surface in the third movement compared to the Parkanyi, Orlando, Galimir, Chilingirian and Melos Quartets.

Something else that I noticed--in the more romantic interpretations, the movements all seemed to naturally flow & fit together more seamlessly as one organic whole. It made me think that this approach must be how Debussy heard his quartet. After all, this was 1893, not 1915.

I don't really want to rank the recordings, since I've liked them all. But if pressed, my order would look something like the following list, & my top five picks are more or less, virtually interchangeable, since all five are great performances, in my estimation:

1. Parkanyi Quartet--as the former Orlando Quartet (with a new cellist), the Parkanyi Quartet are slightly less agile than they were back in the 1980s, when they were one of the two or three finest quartets in the world & first recorded the Debussy quartet for Philips. As a result, the earlier recording is more of a younger man's interpretation, and some listeners may prefer it. However, I find a greater musical depth in the older group's playing, and technically they had remained a very fine quartet. It is probably a matter of personal taste, but I like that they bring a greater tonal heft and lyrical warmth to Debussy's quartet, which pays off in their excellent 3rd and 4th movements. It was also especially noticeable in the 1st movement where the Parkanyis negotiate & interpret Debussy's "animé et trés décidé" marking as perfectly as can be, in my estimation, indeed I find the playing here unusually imaginative. The excellent pure DSD hybrid SACD sound engineering doesn't hurt, either (and admittedly may have swayed me slightly in making the Parkanyis my first pick, since 'state of the art' audiophile sound goes a long way with me in chamber music). I know some people prefer the group's earlier recording when they were the Orlando Quartet, which doesn't surprise me because the Orlandos are my second choice (& I'm sure there are days when I might prefer them too).

Unfortunately, the Parkanyi's Debussy is not on You Tube, but here, at least, are some sound clips: https://www.cede.com/en/music/?view=detail&branch_sub=0&branch=1&aid=138794947

2. Orlando Quartet--I found this performance very satisfying, on all accounts! The early digital sound from Philips is quite good: 



.

3. Galimir Quartet--Despite that Felix Galimir was in his 70s when he made this recording, it is a deeply musical account. The Galimir Quartet's phrasing is amazingly insightful and engaging throughout all four movements. In the slow movement, they give a more gentle, relaxed reading than the other groups, & it works very well & may be the best that I've heard: 



. Simply put, they are great musicians. I rarely have the pleasure of hearing musicians that play music on this incredibly high level. It is easily the best of the old school recordings and a deeply satisfying account, interpretatively (again, it's all in how perceptively they phrase). To hear this kind of music making in digital sound is a rare bonus, from my listening experience.

4. Melos Quartett of Stuttgart--this is a wonderfully spontaneous, imaginative account. & I really like the sense of urgency and expressiveness in this quartet's playing--which is why they sound so spontaneous & freshly inspired throughout all four movements. As I've already mentioned, the Melos Quartett won a rosette from the old Penquin Guide, and deservedly so. For me, this is a great performance and shows the Melos Quartett at their finest. The one slight negative is that they were recorded in analogue sound by DG--which doesn't always translate well to CD in chamber music, and I'm not sure which is the best remaster to date on CD? Btw, it's the only analogue recording on my list: 




5. Chilingirian Quartet--as with the Parkanyi Quartet, this is another lush toned, romantic reading, but the Chilingirians are plenty incisive and agile when they need to be (& maybe a bit more so than the Parkanyis). To my ears, it all works extremely well. As with the Melos Quartett, the Chilingirian's performance is another good example of a more romantic interpretation where all four movements flow and blend together more seamlessly and organically than in some of the more sparsely played modern interpretations. Plus, the excellence of Levon Chilingirian's violin playing always stands out to me when I listen to this quartet, and here is no exception (he's a great musician!): 




6. Ysaÿe Quartet (Decca studio account): I know some listeners prefer the Ysaÿe's live Wigmore Hall account, but I prefer the studio version, so I guess that I like it more than others do (& am in the minority). As with the Parkanyi Quartet, I don't mind the greater tonal heft or near 'orchestral' sound that the Ysaÿe Quartet brings to this music. Granted, occasionally I did wish they could be a bit more nimble and incisive, but generally what they do works well for most of the quartet, and I thought their 2nd movement was particularly engaging: 



. My only hesitation was with their 1st movement which seemed to lack a speck of agility at times, and admittedly some listeners will prefer the 1st movement from their live Wigmore Hall performance, where they begin the quartet with a greater sense of urgency: indeed the tempi in the first two movements sound slightly faster in their live account. Yet, to my ears, the two movements can sound a tad rushed in comparison to the studio account:

Ysaÿe, live, 1st movement: 



Ysaÿe, studio, 1st movement: 



Ysaÿe, live, 2nd movement: 




As mentioned, the Ysaÿe Quartet's phrasing can also be different from the non-French groups, which, at times, fascinates me.

7. Arcanto Quartett: This is another stand out version (& may deserve to be ranked higher on my list, at least ahead of the Ysaÿes...). The Arcanto Quartett are the best of the present day groups that I heard, but only by a tiny margin, just ahead of the Ebene Quartet. Two of the four players, violinist Daniel Sepec and cellist Jean-Guihen Queyras having strong ties to the period revival, so, not surprisingly, the group's playing is less 'late' romantically inclined than with the earlier quartets (but not lacking in passion or spontaneity). However, their interpretation is beautiful and all four parts are super clear. They allow the listener to hear the whole score with a strong degree of clarity. And their 2nd movement is fiercely played and brilliant. For me, they offer a more 'early romantic' interpretation, style-wise: 



.

Granted, I've not heard the Modigliani Quartet's recording that Merl is keen on, and seeing that the Modiglianis are a French group, & since in my experience French musicians can phrase differently in Debussy's music, I hope to hear them.

8. Ebene Quartet--I liked this recording very much, too--that is, until I heard the Debussy recordings of my top five picks, all of whom made the Ebene's interpretation sound slightly more on the surface than I had initially realized. Even so, it is very well played. It was difficult to decide between the Ebene & Arcanto Quartets as my first choice among present day groups, since admittedly, the Ebene Quartet do sound more suave and gallic than the Arcantos (but perhaps a bit too suave, overall).

9. Jerusalem Quartet: This was the 3rd best of the present day groups that I heard. Although I was a little disappointed with their slightly lower energy at the start of the first movement, relative to the others (which I admit is nit picking, because it is otherwise a very fine performance). They don't exactly plod at the opening, I wouldn't go that far, but it does sounds dangerously close to being too laid back or not lively enough (although not blasé). To better understand my point, it's best to hear how they open the quartet for yourself: 



. After the rather dull opening phrases they play extremely well for the rest of the quartet.

10. Alban Berg Quartet--The Bergs play very well, too, but don't sound especially French to me. Which isn't necessarily a criticism. After all, this was a very highly regarded recording when it came out in the 1980s. In the end, however, I couldn't help but feel that the Berg's strong focus on maintaining a consistently beautiful tone and perfect blending can occasionally come at the expense of finding a deeper musical content in Debussy's score. That was most apparent in their 3rd movement, for example, which didn't sound as insightful, introspective, or profound to me as with the other groups, and yet their playing and ensemble are undeniably very beautiful: 



. In other words, with the Berg Quartett, I think there was too much emphasis placed on sounding beautiful & homogenous, and not quite enough insight offered into the actual score. (I think they were better in Ravel's SQ.)

Honorable mention: (1) the Orpheus Quartet are my 4th choice among present day groups, and I could have easily swapped them with the Alban Berg Quartett in the #10 spot. Btw, they have no connection to the Orpheus Chamber Ensemble, in answer to your previous question, Henry: 



. And, (2) the Kuijken Quartet: whose interpretation was slightly too subdued or underplayed, and at moments even a tad bland in the first three movements, for my tastes. The Kuijken's performance didn't seem to fully come alive until the final movement. Considering that the players have strong ties to the period movement, I wasn't at all surprised that they don't show much of an understanding or sympathy for the late romantic elements in Debussy's Quartet. The performance leans more towards classicism than it does to a more highly expressive, late romantic style. (Although for me it's more of a quasi-classical style.) So, I don't see it as a period performance, at least, not according to a performance style or traits that I would normally associate with the turn of the last century. Another negative is that there were also some occasional moments of poor intonation. I've read that the Kuijkens do a lot better in the other Debussy chamber works on their CD--such as Debussy's late Sonata for flute, viola and harp, but I wouldn't buy this recording for the string quartet (although to be honest I can't tell if they are using period strings or not?--in 1893?, which I suppose could be a factor in their interpretation...): 




On to Alban Berg, which I'm looking forward to hearing...


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## Merl

Great round-up Jos. Unfortunately I didn't get to hear the Parkanyi but all the rest you picked are fine versions and, as you said, are separated by small Margins. It was the same with the Ravel SQ reviews. So many fine versions with little between them.

Coming back to the Berg I got to check out a few more today in the shape of the Diotima, Juilliard (1990s) and Schoenberg Quartets. The *Diotima*, I'm afraid was not my cup of tea as a performance. I found it fussy and lacking in depth and the OTT vocal finale (at least Fleming and Upshaw were restrained but beautiful) I found overbearing in the hands of Lemieux, who caterwauls her way through it. Add onto this a strange recording of the Suite that lacks aural width and I can quite happily pass on this one. The *Schoenberg* Quartet (on the other hand) impressed at every twist and turn. I found this a compelling version that impressed straight from a committed and smiling first movement to a delirious 5th. Aided by a lovely warm recording this is a strong contender. Finally I've just finished listening to the *Juilliards' 1990*s performance. Its finely played and very well recorded and definitely falls on the more angular side of interpretations. For those wanting a less romantic reading this would be a pleasure.


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## starthrower

Well that seals it. I will pick up the Schoenberg's Berg CD as I am already a fan of their playing. I enjoyed that 90s Julliard recording and I was going to buy the CD but I read some negative reviews of the Janacek quartets included on the CD. I'm not quite sure about that string technique that ACB mentioned at the 2:05 mark? I heard a faint fluttering sound buried in the mix.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl, I agree that the 90's Juilliard is relatively cool, which is why I said that I prefer their earlier recordings which have such a delightfully distinctive style. I prefer the ABQ and even the Emerson, who I have to admit, turn in a wonderfully nuanced interpretation here. For those who are having a tough time connecting with the music, I recommend listening to it as you might a Bach fugue - focus on the main melody line and how it is transformed through the surrounding counterpoint. In fact it struck me that Berg's melodies are virtually never-ending; I think of each movement (except that proto-Carterian third movement) as an exercise in adapting Wagner's famous "endless melodies" to an atonal idiom. I just luxuriate in the expressionistic poetry and admire the counterpoint even if I don't fully understand it.

A little housekeeping as long as I'm here. *Annaw* is up next, and here's an updated list of nominators:

annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund

And here's our master list of quartets! I removed the dates because we're past one year now, and does it really matter which specific dates we listened to what on?

*First Round*

Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14 (Vicente)
Britten - String Quartet No. 3 (flamencosketches)
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1 (Allegro Con Brio)
Schubert - String Quartet No. 15 (Enthusiast)
Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3 (Mandryka)
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life" (flamencosketches)
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
Carter - String Quartet No. 3 (Bwv 1080)
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2 (Portamento)
Lutosławski - String Quartet (Shosty)
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1 (sbmonty)
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2 (Merl)

Ravel - String Quartet in F Major (Eramire156)
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet (Knorf)
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4 (Simplicissimus)
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet (TurnaboutVox)
Lachenmann - Gran Torso (calvinpv)
Frank - Quijotidas (20centrfuge)
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6 (DTut)
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2 (Malx)
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1 (starthrower)
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3 (annaw)

*Second Round*

Bartók - String Quartet No. 4 (Allegro Con Brio)
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" (Enthusiast) 
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime" (Mandryka)
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4 (Josquin13)
Reger - String Quartet No. 4 (Bwv 1080) 
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8 (adriesba) 
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae" (sbmonty) 
Xenakis - Tetras (Portamento)
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1 (Merl)
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2 (Knorf)

Borodin - String Quartet No. 2 (Simplicissimus)
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor (newyorkconversation)
Rihm - Et Lux for string quartet and vocals (calvinpv)
Ives - String Quartet No. 2 (Iota)
Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2 (Rangstrom)
Bax - String Quartet No. 1 (BlackAdderLXX)
Dutilleux - Ainsi la nuit (starthrower)
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor (annaw)
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14 (SearsPoncho)

*Third Round*

Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16 (Allegro Con Brio)
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet (Mandryka)
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1 (Josquin13)
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 (Portamento)
Haydn - String Quartet in F Minor, Op. 20/5 (Bwv 1080)
Langgaard and Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4 (sbmonty)
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian" (Merl)
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory" (Knorf)
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332 (newyorkconversation)

Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for string quartet and live electronics (calvinpv)
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6 (Malx)
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor (BlackAdderLXX)
Berg - Lyric Suite (starthrower)


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## Burbage

This week I've had no need to wonder why Berg wrote this piece, as that question's been answered by an unshrinking academic industry, in excruciating depth and detail, over several decades. I can't say I'm entirely comfortable with the conclusion, though. Where Beethoven and Koechlin kept their obsessions tuneful and Bruckner, as far as we know, kept his hands to himself, Berg turned his faithless stalkery into an audible sudoku and, thanks to his talent, we're stuck with it as a plank of the canon.

So, instead, I've been wondering why it became a plank of the canon, a status it was given long before its secrets were weaseled out and the soprano smuggled in. Gershwin, apparently, thought it a great thing, though I'm not sure if he ever said why. What we do know is that Berg was a student of Schoenberg, who was developing his own 12-tone thing and took a dim view, as did other 12-toners of the time, of using music to express anything like a 'narrative' or feelings. Which is, perhaps, a little harsh, but possibly fair.

I'm reminded of Hesse's "Glass Bead Game", a novel, begun five years later, that's based around an unspecified game which, over the centuries, had evolved into an abstract, monastic calling, a spiritual pursuit in its own right, detached from the quotidian world, and utterly unintelligible to the huddled masses. The idea, or hope, that music might attain a similar end isn't entirely unknown (though it's the polar opposite of Bach) and resonates with the age-old concept of the music of the spheres. There's more than a hint of it in Wagner and it's the basis of a few musical traditions across times and cultures. But, in the context of Western art music as we know it, it infested the early 20th Century, with Schoenberg somewhere near the vanguard at least for a while. And Berg seems to have been the first - or at least, the first that's survived - to have taken that lofty philosophy and pretended to cast it into the form of a string quartet.

I say pretend because, as we now know, the dreadful truth was different. For, instead of being a vital step on the journey to etherealising the Art, Berg was parading his cake and guzzling it, too. The Lyric Suite may have sounded like an artefect of rarified detachment but, in reality, was a conundrumised confession of clay-footed lust. I don't know if Berg thought he was being funny (he did, during rehearsals, a joke at Webern's expense* which suggests that he thought he had a sense of humour), or was so enslaved by his obsessions that he couldn't help himself, but the Suite itself is undeniably a bit of a fraud.

Which, parenthetically, set me thinking about colour theory. There have been a lot of those, over the years, and some have inspired techniques on which entire reputations have been based (Seurat's, for example). Yet, despite every one of those theories turning out doomed or flapdoodle, those reputations persist. It seems what matters isn't so much how art is made, as what that art expresses, even if, on the face of it, it doesn't. I don't think that's irrelevant here.

But far be it from me to offer an opinion on Berg's abject masterpiece, in which he wraps his gloomy, futile passion in back-of-a-train-ticket numerology. I will, instead, follow Gershwin's lead, and say nothing. Though I should, perhaps credit it for inspiring much great work in others and paying well-deserved homage to Zemlinsky.

And so to the recordings, because this is what we do.

First up, the New Zealanders, who are very sweet about it and do their best. It's the only recording I have, bought because it's a plank of the canon and I unwisely read a convincing review. I guess we all live and learn.

* _https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/berg-joke#_


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## starthrower

Are you trying to tell us you don't like it? Hey, at least you've got yourself covered with that CD on the shelf.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Deleted..........


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## starthrower

It's not as witty as the music it disparages but I'll give it an A for artifice, condescension and cynicism. Merl actually listens to the pieces over and over so I value his honest and straightforward appraisals.


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## Merl

Lol, although I don't agree with Burbage I did find that appraisal most amusing (a critical appraisal that makes me laugh always resonates with my silly sense of humour). It's not a piece for everyone and I totally get why some don't rate it. Tbh, it's at the very edge of my listening and I'm fine with it but if I'd never experimented past my first Kronos recording I'd possibly feel the same. Funny that the New Zealand Quartet CD was mentioned as I've just received it in the mail today (£3 for a near mint cd is fine with me). I'll do a round-up later but suffice it to say that there are a number of excellent recordings and it really is down to your personal preferences in performance which one you like the best.


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## StevehamNY

As high-minded and Academic as the whole serialist movement was purported to be (“turning music into sudoku puzzles” is my favorite criticism), these guys all had more sordid drama in their lives than an episode of Jersey Shore. (Schoenberg’s wife, who happens to be Zemlinky’s sister, runs off with the painter Richard Gerstl, so Webern goes to talk her out of it, and then Gerstl destroys his paintings and hangs himself. And that was just a Tuesday.) But ultimately, the ignoble backstory of the Lyric Suite doesn’t make me enjoy it any less. I might like it even more knowing it was written by a human being just as flawed and ridiculous as the rest of us.

Having said that, Burbage, your post was the funniest thing I’ve read all day. Even if I don’t agree with most of it, it’s just another reason to appreciate this place.


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## sbmonty

A nice adventure. I am growing to like Berg. LaSalle and Emerson are my two favourites. Perhaps the Emerson's because of the warmer sound and the option of the vocal VI movement. Nice choice. I'll keep searching this composer as a result. 
Thanks.


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## sbmonty

I thought I'd place the choices in alphabetical order by composer, to make it easier for those joining, as this thread obviously has legs. 
I'm enjoying each week immensely.

Talk Classical String Quartet Thread - Alphabetical

Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
Bax - String Quartet No. 1
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16
Berg - Lyric Suite
Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
Britten - String Quartet No. 3
Carter - String Quartet No. 3
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime"
Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
Frank - Quijotidas
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3
Haydn - String Quartet in F Minor, Op. 20/5
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
Ives - String Quartet No. 2
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
Lachenmann - Gran Torso
Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
Lutosławski - String Quartet
Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" 
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
Reger - String Quartet No. 4
Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics 
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 
Schubert - String Quartet No. 15
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
Xenakis - Tetras


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Wow, thanks for doing that, sbmonty! I think that's the format we should stick with when we post it from now on.

Are there any _major_ string quartet composers we haven't touched on yet? I must say that there is one composer who only wrote two quartets, but who I'm very surprised hasn't been picked yet. I won't reveal who it is though, lest I unduly influence anyone's choice...


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## sbmonty

My pleasure. Thanks for hosting this amazing thread ACB!


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Are there any _major_ string quartet composers we haven't touched on yet? I must say that there is one composer who only wrote two quartets, but who I'm very surprised hasn't been picked yet. I won't reveal who it is though, lest I unduly influence anyone's choice...


As someone with intimate knowledge of the genre, can you give us some letters from his name?


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## Merl

I can think of an absolute glaring omission of a composer who wrote 2 of my favourite SQs but I'm not saying as it could turn into another semi-marathon for me and I have a stinker of a week, next week. :lol: Another omission is someone who wrote a lot of quartets. Incidentally, both are from a country with a rich string quartet tradition and a very well known orchestra with a distinctive string sound. I've nearly done both of them when my turn came up but expect it won't be long before someone does.


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> As someone with intimate knowledge of the genre, can you give us some letters from his name?


Now you may being getting ACB into trouble - he could end up in front of a Congressional Commitee for trying to influence decisions.
But I would hazard a guess that if you think of a German motor manufacturer you might be going down the right road (or maybe ACB has someone else in mind).


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## Kjetil Heggelund

How about some Cherubini, Davies or Gubaidulina?


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## Merl

I reached the end of a week's listening to Berg and this has been quite a problematic one for me as there are so many fine accounts and I liked them for many different reasons. Someone said earlier that the 4th movement is the emotional heart of this quartet. I disagree. I don't think this quartet has a heart. The key to a very successful performance lies, for me, with a cohesive reading that does not sound disjointed. So, here are a list of the recordings I really enjoyed for one reason or another and a few that I think just about edged it but I may feel differereny on another day. I've left out some fine recordings here that others may think should have been included (eg Kronos) but I've gone with the ones I enjoyed the most. Here goes....

_Highly Recommended
_
Psophos
Tetzlaff
Belcea
Leipziger
Alban Berg (1974) 
Alban Berg (90s)

_*Hugely Recommended*_

Juilliard (1950) - A wonderful document of the classic quartet. Idiomatic playing (I love their 3rd movement above any). Don't be put off by the mono recording. It sounds amazing for its age. 
Juilliard (1996) - Darker and more angular than the 50s account this will likely be a top pick for many who like that kind of style in Berg. A great performance. 
New Zealand - Another one where the sum of the parts really impressed. 
I'm getting to really enjoy this group's recordings. 
La Salle - Easy to recommend. Solid, highly articulate playing in fine sound. 
Prazak - On another day this could have been top pick. What a terrific recording this is. It had me from the first minute.

_*Narrow top picks*_








*Emerson* - this really is one of the Emerson Quartet's finest recordings. It has passion, power and beauty in equal measure but more importantly its an account that makes perfect sense. Super recording and, for people who like somebody warbling and spoiling instrumental music, there's even the additional option of a vocal accompaniment to the last movement, done superbly (but unnecessarily) by Renee Fleming. Seriously, if you want a version that ticks all boxes you can't go wrong here. Even Emerson haters rate this one and with reason.








*Schoenberg* - I really don't know what it is about this one. It's played impressively by the Schoenbergs but it's not just that. It's recorded really well but it's not just that. The whole thing hangs together so well so it sounds seamless but it's not just that. Individual movements are played in the manner I feel is right but it's not just that. Their tone is gorgeous.. .. Oh hang on, it's all of these! This is a really enjoyable and rewarding recording as a whole.


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## HenryPenfold

Excellent summary Merl - many thanks.

As usual, I've not strayed far from what I have in my collection. Last night I gave the Emersons more airtime as previously I had been focusing on LaSalle (my default position on these things) and the discovery of the New Zealand on Naxos. My adored Quatuor Diotima dropped out of the reckoning simply because I got locked into the non-vocal sixth movement and was happy there. Might be different next time around.

My rank order is:

1) Emerson
2) LaSalle
3) New Zealand

For me, quite close between 2 & 3, but the Emerson is a clear 'winner'.

Interesting comment about 'heart of the piece'. I know what people mean when they comment in that way, but it doesn't work like that for me. I often read comments like "with this symphony, it's all about the adagio. Nail the adagio and you've nailed the symphony". I think the analysis is flawed.


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## starthrower

There are several major (in the quartet genre) composers that haven't been touched on yet. 

Krenek
Bacewicz
Toch
Martinu
Zemlinsky
Ferneyhough
Simpson
Ben Johnston
Gloria Coates
Norgard

As well as a couple of very famous leading avant garde composers of the past 60 years. We've done a few in Ligeti, Lutoslawski, and Xenakis.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Oh, OK, the composer I had in mind was Janácek! But Kjetil and starthrower mentioned some wonderful names I haven’t thought of either...


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## starthrower

Janacek's quartets are amazing! Good call!


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## StevehamNY

StevehamNY said:


> As someone with intimate knowledge of the genre, can you give us some letters from his name?


Seriously??? Nobody got that one?

Intimate? Letters? Hello?


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Seriously??? Nobody got that one?
> 
> Intimate? Letters? Hello?


I was trying to keep it quiet..... Ssshhhhh!


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## Josquin13

There are lots of names of string quartet composers being offered above that I would have mentioned, too--especially Leos Janacek, Luigi Cherubini (underrated quartets), Robert Simpson, & Bohuslav Martinu.

The following lists are drawn from my notes for this thread (& feel free to choose SQs by any of the composers mentioned below, as I've far more than I need, considering that it's my turn to choose so seldom):

Not done so far are works by some of the American quartet composers--other than Ives, Crawford-Seeger, and Carter--such as Samuel Barber's String Quartet, from which he orchestrated his famous Adagio for Strings, John Harbison's SQs, which is an underrated cycle!, IMO: 



, along with SQ cycles by William Schumann, George Rochberg, Walter Piston, Vincent Persichetti, Ben Johnston (already mentioned), and Fred Lerdahl: 



 --all worth exploring. (Also, the SQs of Christopher Rouse, Roger Sessions, Henry Cowell, Virgil Thomson, Alan Hovhaness, Conlon Nancarrow, David Diamond, George Perle, Milton Babbit, Peter Mennin-among those that I've not heard.)

There are many Scandinavian composers that wrote SQs, too. Although we've already done a number of them. At times, I've been considering nominating one of the SQs by Fartein Valen, Jonas Kokkonen (one of my favorite Finnish composers), Erkki Melartin, Kurt Atterberg, Pehr Henrik Nordgren, Ib Nørholm, Paavo Heininen, Per Nørgård (already mentioned), Hans Abrahamsen, Poul Ruders, Bent Sørensen, Arne Nordheim, & Einojuhani Rautavaara.

Plus, there are a good number of excellent, lesser known SQs by French, Swiss, and Belgian 'impressionist' influenced composers not covered yet, such as, for example, those by Joseph Guy Ropartz, Alberic Magnard, Arthur Honegger, Joseph-Ermend Bonnal, Joseph Jongen, and from the excellent "In Flanders' Fields" CD series, the very obscure but surprisingly very worthwhile "impressionist" quartets by Godfried Devreese & Prosper van Eechaute,






Obviously, I've not heard all of the SQs by every composer mentioned below, but they're all notable composers who wrote SQs, in addition to those that have already been mentioned by others (just in case anyone's running out of ideas for new composers to cover, you needn't be...):

Michael Haydn
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, especially his SQ no. 3 that contains the beautiful Andante cantabile movement.
Alexander Taneyev
Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov
Hubert Parry
Edmund Rubbra
Alan Rawsthorne
David Matthews
Colin Matthews
John Tavener
Hans Werner Henze
Alexander Goehr
John McCabe
William Alwyn
Michael Tippett
Benjamin Godard
Charles Villiers Stanford
Ernest Chausson (though his one string quartet was finished by d'Indy, it's still an interesting work)
Luigi Boccherini
Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges
Joseph Martin Kraus
Alessandro Rolla
Anton Reicha
Hyacinthe Jadin
Johann Nepomuk Hummel
George Onslow
Ferdinand Ries
Louis Spohr
Félicien David
Cesar Franck
Joachim Raff
Camille Saint-Saens
Josef Bohuslav Foerster
Hugo Wolf
Frederick Delius
Alexander Glazunov
Wilhelm Stenhammar
Alexander von Zemlinsky
Ralph Vaughan Williams
Reinhold Gliére
Erno Dohnányi
Max Bruch
Ottorino Respighi
Nikolai Roslavets
Henryk Gorecki
Krzysztof Penderecki
Peter Maxwell Davies
Arvo Pärt
Aullis Sallinen
Steve Reich
Philip Glass
Valentyn Silvestrov
John Adams
Salvatore Sciarrino

And of course we've not done a ton of great SQs by the composers already covered on our thread. So, I think we can keep this thread going & vital for a long time (unless at some point in the distant future we decide to switch over to piano trios, or violin sonatas, or quintets...?)

I hope my lists above are helpful to someone. The joy of this thread for me has been searching out and exploring new works and composers that I didn't know before & making valuable discoveries, being introduced to new works by others, and reacquainting myself with old friends.

P.S. Some of my frustrations vented--I wish the late Oliver Knussen had written one or two string quartets. It seems like such a natural idiom for him. (& I say one or two only because I know he wouldn't have done more.) I'd also like to see Magnus Lindberg compose some string quartets, along with Robin Holloway. Plus, I wish the Lydian Quartet's recording of Alan Stout's SQs had been commercially released like ALL the rest of the winners of their string quartet prize for contemporary composers. Why haven't they been? If they were bad quartets, why did he win the award? I'd also likewise echo others frustrations here regarding the lack of available recordings of Hans Werner Henze's quartets. & I'd add Ib Nørholm to that list, whose symphony cycle I like. So, why not record Nørholm's SQ cycle? Finally, a suggestion for Hyperion, why don't you finally box Robert Simpson's String Quartet cycle? What are you waiting for?... it's not like he's around to compose more quartets... & I'd also like to see John McCabe's SQ cycle released in a box set, as well.


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## Merl

This was the list I sent to Annaw before to help in her consideration. No doubt she'll ignore me and choose something else. Lol. On purpose, I mostly (except Tchaikovsky and Janacek - both glaring omissions) picked ones with fewer recordings cos I ve got a busy week next week (and my 1st covid vaccine jab on Tuesday). 

Elgar
Martinu
Myaskovsky
Berkeley
Glass
Rubbra
Bruch 
Walton
Zemlinsky
Janacek
Bloch
Verdi
Respighi
Tchaikovsky
Tippett
Cherubini
Bridge 
Busoni
Barber
Stenhammar

Edit: BTW, fantastic list, Jos.


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## SearsPoncho

Janacek was already done. I believe it was #2 (Intimate Letters).


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## SearsPoncho

SearsPoncho said:


> Janacek was already done. I believe it was #2 (Intimate Letters).


Holy Guacomole! I stand corrected. I could have sworn Janacek was mentioned earlier because I wrote down a list of quartets I wanted to nominate and crossed off Janacek #2. I must have seen the ensemble The Janacek Quartet mentioned or saw the Smetana #1 and my weak brain confused it for Janacek.

Well, if that's the case then whoever brought this up has changed the quartet(s) I've been waiting months to nominate...unless Annaw picks it first.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Well, if that's the case then whoever brought this up has changed the quartet(s) I've been waiting months to nominate...unless Annaw picks it first.


I believe Merl is begging for mercy in this next round, with a busy week plus a vaccine jab coming up. (A quick check on Presto shows 62 recordings of Janacek #2!)

(Not sure what Merl is going to do when "Death and the Maiden" gets picked, by the way. Quit the job and stop eating?)


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## Helgi

I'm happy to report that my brain seems to be acclimating and I'm now enjoying the Lyric Suite. So, horizons expanded :tiphat: 

The Emerson and LaSalle recordings were the standouts — it all started coming together for me when I listened to the LaSalle.

And now if you'll excuse me I will nod and smile and slowly back away into more familiar repertoire :lol:


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## Merl

Helgi said:


> I'm happy to report that my brain seems to be acclimating and I'm now enjoying the Lyric Suite. So, horizons expanded :tiphat:
> 
> The Emerson and LaSalle recordings were the standouts - it all started coming together for me when I listened to the LaSalle.
> 
> And now if you'll excuse me I will nod and smile and slowly back away into more familiar repertoire :lol:


Lol. No need to apologise. We all have an opinion and it can change.There's still plenty of stuff in the SQ repertoire I can't stomach.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Not really a fan of Berg, or Soduku so I'll hold my tongue. 
I was going to say Tchaikovsky hadn't been picked that was one I was thinking about last week.


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## annaw

My pick for the next week is *Martinů's String Quartet no. 7, H. 314, "Concerto da camera"*.

In addition to it simply being a marvellous composition, there are multiple things that make it even more interesting. But instead of rambling here about them myself, I'm going to copy an AllMusic description by Franklin Stover:

"By the time the String Quartet No. 7 had been completed, Martinu had resided in the United States for six years. Having no command of the English language on his arrival, he nontheless obtained a commission from Koussevitzky [...].

Desiring to return to his homeland, he had his wife travel to Czechoslovakia to organize the move and to seek out accomodations. Meanwhile, Martinu stayed home to finish up a commission. But while the two were separated, the composer became a victim to a freak accident. He had fallen off the balcony of his New York apartment and was badly injured. Suffering from a combination of nervous shock, partial hearing and memory loss, the fifty-six year old composer gradually resumed his work, though greatly diminished in physical and creative energy. With the String Quartet No. 7, Martinu was on the mend, and from this time on, he devoted himself more to composing chamber music.

When in Paris, and prior to his American years, Martinu embraced the cultural heritage of his birthplace, and made more frequent reference to it in his creative work. Upon entering the States, his style underwent a subtle transformation, stressing the economy of the melodic line, and employing a more direct and simpler mode of expression. The composer's String Quartet No.7 appears to fit this description aptly.

The String Quartet No. 7 is occassionally referred to as a concerto da camera, possibly because of its three-movement structure, and affinity to the olden definition of chamber concerto. One percieves a kind of genuine spirit operating here; an almost youthful spirit that seems to pervade much of Martinu's music.[...]

Biographer Milos Safranek has said that the first movement invokes joy and optimism, while the slower middle movement shows Martinu in lyric and expressive repose. True to his Czech sentiments, the last movement, Allegro Vivo, cooks up a full-blooded Czech spirit, indicating that the composer's heart never really left his native village of Policka."






Hope you all enjoy  !


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## Allegro Con Brio

I am a big fan of Martinu's symphonies and concerti but for some reason have never explored his large output of chamber music (seems to be a trend with many of these composers we are studying - that I tend to neglect their chamber works). He has such a distinctive compositional voice; it's almost impossible to confuse him with anyone else. Yet another exquisite choice

BTW I had to look up the definition of "concerto da camera." Here's what Wiki says:

_Concerto da camera, or in English chamber concerto, originally was one of the two types of concerto grosso, the other being the concerto da chiesa ("church concert"). The concerto da camera had the character of a suite, being introduced by a prelude and incorporating popular dance forms. Antonio Vivaldi and Georg Philipp Telemann were great exponents of this form of music. Later it became a popular name for any concerto in a chamber music or chamber orchestra setting._


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## starthrower

I too have yet to listen to Martinu's chamber works with the exception of his piano quintets. The second one is a beautiful piece. I'll give this quartet a listen this evening. Back out to the sunshine for now.


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## Merl

Great choice, Annaw. I love Martinu's SQs and especially quartets 4, 5 and 7. I think Jos is a big fan too (am I right Jos?). I recently picked up the Stamitz cycle for a steal but I already have the Panocha cycle and the Prazak 7th. Looking forward to comparing them all. The Panocha performance has always been my reference but I've not listened for a while and still have only played the Stamitz once (which sounded excellent too). 


If you're not familiar with this quartet then you're in for a treat. It's quite neo-classical in style to my ears (it even sounds like a Czech Haydn at times) and a thoroughly enjoyable quartet. Looking forward to checking out the Martinu Quartet 7th account on Naxos that I've not heard yet. Not many recordings are available but those I've heard are all, at the very least, impressive. I've been after hearing the Talich recording for years without any luck. Here's the recordings I know of. 

Prazak
Panocha
Stamitz
Martinu Quartet
Talich
Vlach

I don't know of any others but if anyone does then let us know.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Another BTW: I recently gained access to Naxos Music Library (through my college) and found out, to my immense delight, that, unlike any other streaming service I’m aware of, they carry the entire Supraphon catalog! So I can listen to some of those “authentic” Czech performances this week. I’m aware that many libraries and other institutions offer free access to NML for their members, so if by any chance anyone is in such a situation it doesn’t hurt to check.


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## Merl

Yay, the Talich is now on Spotify (as is the Martinu Quartet recording)!! Happy days! Ironically, I listened to the Stamitz disc with 4, 5 and 6 on today (I put it on the Current Listening thread late this morning) but not the 7th.


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## HenryPenfold

Another good choice. I have the Stamitz (but can't find it) and the Martinu on Naxos.

It has a definite Neoclassical character and is nicely set out with an energetic opening movement, an almost tranquil second movement of genuine beauty and a jubilant, allegro vivace round-off!

Whilst I think quartets 4, 5 & 6 are stronger, the 7th absolutely deserves plenty of listening time!

Perhaps an antidote for those that found last week's Berg a tad intense ;-)


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## BlackAdderLXX

You had me at Martinu. Looking forward to it!


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> You had me at Martinu. Looking forward to it!


I just breathed a huge sigh of relief that it wasn't Janacek 1 or 2. I really don't have the time this week. Hahaha.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> I just breathed a huge sigh of relief that it wasn't Janacek 1 or 2. I really don't have the time this week. Hahaha.


You shall get no mercy from me next week, sir (Cue the evil villain laugh.)

Thank you, Annaw. Looking forward to it.


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## Josquin13

Yes, I'm a fan of Martinu's music--including his SQs, Merl. Though I can find his output variable. The good news is that it should be a manageable week for you! I've been content with my recordings by the Panocha, Prazak, Zemlinsky, & Kocian Quartets in this repertory. & only two of those quartets, the Prazak and Panocha Quartets have recorded SQ No. 7, if memory serves. I've not heard the Stamitz & Martinu Quartets, but have read strong reviews about their playing. (It hard to go too far wrong with Czech musicians in general, IMO.) Martinu's SQ no. 5 is also worth a listen. Great choice, annaw.


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## sbmonty

http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/n/nxs53783a.php

I almost chose Martinu a while back. Here's a review I found enlightening. 
Nice choice. Looking forward to another enjoyable week.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> You shall get no mercy from me next week, sir (Cue the evil villain laugh.)
> 
> .


SP you are a sadist! Incidentally, SB, that's a good little description of the Martinu SQs. Like Jos, no.5 is my fave but they all have something interesting to say.


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## Bwv 1080

HenryPenfold said:


> Another good choice. I have the Stamitz (but can't find it) and the Martinu on Naxos.
> 
> It has a definite Neoclassical character and is nicely set out with an energetic opening movement, an almost tranquil second movement of genuine beauty and a jubilant, allegro vivace round-off!
> 
> Whilst I think quartets 4, 5 & 6 are stronger, the 7th absolutely deserves plenty of listening time!
> 
> Perhaps an antidote for those that found last week's Berg a tad intense ;-)


Been a winning strategy so far in this thread to go with the quartet named after the composer

Also counting the number of accents on names of the players works


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## starthrower

I checked out the Stamitz, Panocha, and Martinu quartets. I love the Stamitz performance but the recording captures maybe a bit too much of the room sound. After listening to all three I proceeded to start from No.1 of the entire Panocha cycle which sounds beautiful to my ears. Too bad it's not uploaded in order on YouTube so I'll have to check Spotify. This is a set I'd really like to own when I find a good price.


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## calvinpv

The Stamitz recording is the one I have, and it can be found in this youtube playlist here (in fact, all of their Martinu is here):






The sound quality is clear, their articulation is crisp, their tempos are very appropriate for letting the musical voices sing, and there is an overall light/classical feel to their interpretation, which combined with the spiciness Martinu adds to the music, reminds me of the festive sonorities of Villa-Lobos.

I'm not familiar with the other recordings, but I give a big thumbs up to the Stamitz.

EDIT: Their Janacek is also excellent, also found in this playlist.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Great choice. Actually, I listened to all seven sq by Martinu just a few weeks ago, starting with the 7th and then going from 1-6. He was indeed very versatile. I am looking forward to relisten to no. 7, which was one of my two favourites. I listened to the Panocha for the lot, and liked those. Will now look for the other recordings mentioned.


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## Merl

I started this one by listening to the 3 recordings I owned today and it was quite remarkable the differences in style and performance. I kicked off with my 'reference' recording of the 7th, courtesy of the *Panochas*. They play with a disarmingly clear tone and there's great fluidity and colour in this attractive account. Listen to how they transition between instruments in their vibrant first movement and it's easy to understand why this recording is so well thought of. Warm but not homogenous tone, excellent bounce and clear articulation are key to the Panocha's vision and they turn in a masterclass. The *Stamitz* quartet are more rough-hewn in their approach. There's a more rustic feel and drive to their recording that fits the music ideally and some might prefer this. Interestingly the same qualities stand out in both ensembles' Dvorak cycles (I have both and sometimes prefer the edgier Stamitz there but often turn to the more soulful Panochas just for beauty of playing). The Stamitz recording is a bit over-reverberant but their winning way is convincing and they don't overplay the Haydnesque final movement, giving the 7th a Slavic flavour filled with grittiness. The bass is big here and they, too, turn in another fine account. Sitting somewhere in the middle are the *Prazaks* who play with both athleticism and tonal beauty (the violins are particularly beautifully recorded) and although they may not be as fluid a the Panochas or as earthy as the Stamitz they manage to convey the piece with great aplomb. They are particularly fine in the slow movement and there's no way anyone could be disappointed with such a thoroughly decent recording. I'm greatly looking forward to listening to the Martinu Quartet and Talich Quartet recordings tomorrow as I've yet to hear them. Up to now there's no way you could be dissatisfied with any performance. It will be interesting to see of that is the case tomorrow with the next two.


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## Allegro Con Brio

First impressions courtesy of the Martinu Quartet on Naxos: Great, great music that doesn’t need to be innovative/groundbreaking in order to be great. Yes, parts of it sound a lot like Dvorak, but I always find that Martinu’s voice is unmistakably clear. His style favors manic dances, sizzling bursts of satirical energy, tempered with a haunting and sweeping lyricism, and all that is very evident here. The music progresses from frequently dissonant (first movement) through the achingly expressive slow movement (one of the more lovely slow movements I have heard recently) and to the pure, folksy dance finale as a sign of optimism. I also listened to the 4th, and it was equally great, though even less “modernist” sounding. I’m going to take in at least a couple of other Martinu quartets this week and maybe some of his other chamber music. The Martinus, appropriately enough, play the music with great feeling and with a wonderfully light, lithe touch, emphasizing sensitivity and unbroken pathos in the slow movement but digging into the dance rhythms when necessary. Just lovely music-making; I wonder if the Stamitz and Panocha have anything to add.


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## starthrower

I really like the sound of the Stamitz quartet through headphones. Their rugged approach is a good contrast to some of the other ensembles. I should probably give their Janacek a listen.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just listened to the Martinu Quartet, absolutely lovely, especially the wonderfully melodic second movement, which they do not just play with wonderful sonority, they also put their soul into the music, as if they are caressing the chords. I agree with Allegro con Brio that they are also very good in the very rythmic outer movements, although maybe a bit too much on the graceful side, as if they were playing a Haydn quartet. 
Tomorrow, I will go for grit, i.e. Stamitz, to see what that feels like. 

I do not understand, why this lovely music, which satisfies at the cerebral --and-- the emotional level, has not become standard repertoire.


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## Carmina Banana

Martinu is like a warm bubble bath after the ice cold shower of the second Viennese school. 

12 tone composition is, after all, a technique of exclusion. It exists to stamp out natural human tendencies. As such, It never really caught on (though it established a solid foothold in academia). To embrace the past but still create an original body of works is an admirable goal and I think Martinu does well with it. I suppose rejecting the past can also yield great art but the odds seem slimmer. 

By the way, while checking Martinu’s body of works, I had to do a double take at his Fantasy for Theremin, Oboe String Quartet and Piano. I had to listen. It is not a great piece. But a very interesting idea and It is fun to see how he grapples with the task of combining these instruments.


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## StevehamNY

starthrower said:


> I really like the sound of the Stamitz quartet through headphones. Their rugged approach is a good contrast to some of the other ensembles. I should probably give their Janacek a listen.


100% agree, ST. I'll lean toward the rugged sound for almost anything. (Vegh being the pinnacle of this sound for me.)

Interestingly, although I'm probably the one person here who had the biggest "gain" during Berg week (i.e. I came in at a neutral 5 and left the week at an 8), I don't think the rugged sound works for that kind of piece at all. Better to be clean and precise there. Would you agree?


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## Allegro Con Brio

This may seem like a strange connection, but does anyone else notice that, in his faster movements, Martinu likes incessant, driving rhythms almost reminiscent of minimalist music like Steve Reich? This shows up in all the quartets of his that I’ve heard so far (3, 4, 6, 7, especially the finale of the 6th). It takes a creative performance to make it sound like the music is actually developing rather than just stuck in static rhythmic patterns.


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## Carmina Banana

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This may seem like a strange connection, but does anyone else notice that, in his faster movements, Martinu likes incessant, driving rhythms almost reminiscent of minimalist music like Steve Reich? This shows up in all the quartets of his that I've heard so far (3, 4, 6, 7, especially the finale of the 6th). It takes a creative performance to make it sound like the music is actually developing rather than just stuck in static rhythmic patterns.


I was not thinking minimalism, but I see what you are saying. I was thinking that the rhythms in the fast movements could be in a baroque/classical piece, but the unexpected twists and turns in harmony take us to the 20th century. I do think the performance needs to "make something of it," so that it doesn't seem ordinary or pedestrian.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This may seem like a strange connection, but does anyone else notice that, in his faster movements, Martinu likes incessant, driving rhythms almost reminiscent of minimalist music like Steve Reich? This shows up in all the quartets of his that I've heard so far (3, 4, 6, 7, especially the finale of the 6th). It takes a creative performance to make it sound like the music is actually developing rather than just stuck in static rhythmic patterns.


I was going to bring up something similar in my round-up. Most of the recordings, one on particular, seem to understand this well. I listened to the *Talich* recording today and it's a missed opportunity for me. They are quick here (especially in the last movement) and play with an excellent rhythmic drive, as you alluded to, ACB. Unfortunately the recording on Spotify is incredibly dry and bass-shy which is a crying shame as they really do get to the heart of this one. I'd like to hear this on disc to see if it's just a bad Spotify rip (it happens sometimes) or is just a product of Supraphon's recording. With a better recording this would be a cracker. The last movement is exciting and sounds less like Haydn and more Slavic in nature. I'd be interested if others feel the same.


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## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This may seem like a strange connection, but does anyone else notice that, in his faster movements, Martinu likes incessant, driving rhythms almost reminiscent of minimalist music like Steve Reich? This shows up in all the quartets of his that I've heard so far (3, 4, 6, 7, especially the finale of the 6th). It takes a creative performance to make it sound like the music is actually developing rather than just stuck in static rhythmic patterns.


I totally agree that he really liked driving rhythms and that's what I really like about his quartets. However, I wouldn't say that it sounds minimalist to me personally (my very unprofessional opinion). Rather, what it brings to my mind is in fact Nielsen who was also forcefully energetic when he wrote anything even slightly fast. But I don't know - you're musically a lot more knowledgable than I am, and I should probably listen to more Reich before making any assessments.

There's one thing that I've started noticing the more I listen to Martinu - someone noted about one of his quartets (unfortunately I don't remember which one) that while Martinu can sound a bit like Dvorak, his music is more polyphonic. I'm by no means a Martinu expert as his quartets are pretty new to me as well, but I've began noticing that he gives a lot of attention to the "conversation" between the instruments. That's also quite noticeable in the last movement of the 7th quartet, and makes Martinu very captivating to listen to in my opinion.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> I was going to bring up something similar in my round-up. Most of the recordings, one on particular, seem to understand this well. I listened to the *Talich* recording today and it's a missed opportunity for me. They are quick here (especially in the last movement) and play with an excellent rhythmic drive, as you alluded to, ACB. Unfortunately the recording on Spotify is incredibly dry and bass-shy which is a crying shame as they really do get to the heart of this one. I'd like to hear this on disc to see if it's just a bad Spotify rip (it happens sometimes) or is just a product of Supraphon's recording. With a better recording this would be a cracker. The last movement is exciting and sounds less like Haydn and more Slavic in nature. I'd be interested if others feel the same.


The recording is quite boxy in my opinion as well (especially after listening to Panocha and Stamitz). But it's equally terrible on Tidal (both releases), so I'm not sure if Spotify is the reason. CD would probably have a better sound quality anyway but I have no idea how drastic the difference is. I agree about the last movement - really exciting interpretation. After listening to it, Stamitz sounds a bit relaxed in the last movement compared to Talich.


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## Merl

annaw said:


> ... .. I'm by no means a Martinu expert as his quartets are pretty new to me as well, but I've began noticing that he gives a lot of attention to the "conversation" between the instruments. That's also quite noticeable in the last movement of the 7th quartet, and makes Martinu very captivating to listen to in my opinion.


This is particularly noticeable in the 5th quartet, a work I have a love for. It stands out in Martinu's SQ output as a darker more emotional piece with an almost Gorecki-like feel (another reviewer eluded to this). He uses unison really well to create a darker, more melancholy mood and as the mood lightens he shifts to short bursts of 'conversation'. It's very rewarding and engaging to listen to. For the uninitiated, try it.


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## HenryPenfold

So far ......

I found my Stamitz recordings and enjoyed listening to them. They have a more 'robust', 'earthy' sound compared to the Martinu Quartet on Naxos, very profound in the lower registers. As it's chalk and cheese (the MQ is, to my ears more lyrical), I would not choose one over the other.

But I did find myself quickly satisfied with the 7th and moved on to listening to the 5th. I wonder if the 7th is a bit _lightweight_ for my extended listening preferences.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just listened to the Stamitz: Their first movement beats the Martinu by lengths: So much more fire and depth, particularly in the lower register, as Henry Penfold mentioned. The slow movement sounds darker than the Martinu, an almost Beethovian intensity. On that movement, however, I am still smitten by the ethereal sweetness of the Martinu. In the last movement, again the Stamitz convinces more with its more "serious" approach. 

I relate to Henry's comment about a certain lightweightedness of the piece, but I think Stamitz gives the music adequate weight, more a modern Dvorak, less Haydn. Somebody remarked that the Stamitz sounded more slavic in the last movement, which is exactly right.

Everytime I listen to this quartet, I discover new things. Repeated listens I don't find tiring, at all. That also speaks for the quality of the music.


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## Bwv 1080

well crafted lightweightedness is good IMO, particularly with 20th century works


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## Allegro Con Brio

To clarify, I wasn’t saying that Martinu’s aesthetic is minimalist! I just thought that his tendency for nonstop, motoric rhythms reminded me of those favored by certain brands of minimalists. I love the complex counterpoint of Martinu’s quartet writing; your mind is always busy tracking what’s going on.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Work and life have been MENTAL this week. I'm planning on downloading a single recording of this work. It seems fair to say that the Stamitz is the one to beat?


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## Carmina Banana

I am having a hard time finding my favorite recording of this piece. 
I feel like this music embodies the concept of chamber music. I would love to hear this in a small room, almost rubbing elbows with the performers. As such, I am turned off by recordings that sound more like a string orchestra and less like a foursome. 
I love the performance of the Talich quartet, but I have to agree with the above criticisms--it isn't a great recording. 
The Stamitz is a little "large" for my taste. The middle movement in particular can get overblown very easily and then I feel we lose the point. I don't think that movements works as well on this recording. Overall, however, the Stamitz recording is full and luxurious and I can't deny it is very enjoyable to listen to. 
I am still searching for my favorite.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> I am having a hard time finding my favorite recording of this piece.
> I feel like this music embodies the concept of chamber music. I would love to hear this in a small room, almost rubbing elbows with the performers. As such, I am turned off by recordings that sound more like a string orchestra and less like a foursome.
> I love the performance of the Talich quartet, but I have to agree with the above criticisms--it isn't a great recording.
> The Stamitz is a little "large" for my taste. The middle movement in particular can get overblown very easily and then I feel we lose the point. I don't think that movements works as well on this recording. Overall, however, the Stamitz recording is full and luxurious and I can't deny it is very enjoyable to listen to.
> I am still searching for my favorite.


I have 3 I really enjoy, for a variety of reasons, and I'm finding them hard to split, too. I listened to the *Martinu Quartet* today on Naxos and their first and 2nd movements are very impressive (the first in particular) . The only quibble was I felt they underplayed the final movement a tiny bit and were lighter than some others , however their tone is gorgeous and the recording is excellent too so it's a tough call. This one is a close call for me. I'll listen to the 3 I like the most again and see if any can finally convince me, otherwise this may be a tie.

Edit: I just have the Vlach to hear. If anyone has a link please post.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I just have the Vlach to hear. If anyone has a link please post.


Merl, this is the Spotify link: 




But once again I can't even listen to it this way because it's not playable in my region. But maybe in yours?

Edit: Also, the Qobuz link in case you have that service:

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/suk-martinu-string-quartets-vlach-quartet/ixlpn7t1w7v8b


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, this is the Spotify link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But once again I can't even listen to it this way because it's not playable in my region. But maybe in yours?
> 
> Edit: Also, the Qobuz link in case you have that service:
> 
> https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/suk-martinu-string-quartets-vlach-quartet/ixlpn7t1w7v8b


Thanks for the Spotify link, Steve, but it's greyed out for me too and I'm not on Qobuz so I can't listen on there either (can you Annaw?)


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Thanks for the Spotify link, Steve, but it's greyed out for me too and I'm not on Qobuz so I can't listen on there either (can you Annaw?)


In the spirit of complete overkill, here's the Amazon Music link: https://music.amazon.com/albums/B07DRDRX3W


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Thanks for the Spotify link, Steve, but it's greyed out for me too and I'm not on Qobuz so I can't listen on there either (can you Annaw?)


I cannot access it on Spotify either .


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’m able to listen to it from the mobile app accessed via Steve’s link. Strange.


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## StevehamNY

OR, if you're up for using your free trial period on either Deezer or Tidal:

https://www.deezer.com/en/album/65842962
https://listen.tidal.com/album/90568794

(I couldn't locate this album on either Primephonic or Idagio.)


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’d be more than willing to review the Vlach for y’all later this week (I only have access to mobile now and Spotify access is crap on there) if you’d like. Right now enjoying the Stamitz. It is a more straightforward, less “espressivo” approach than the Panocha and Martinu, but it works in its own way. I actually think both those other recordings take the finale in too lightweight fashion; the Stamitz have plenty of drive and bite, not to mention rich golden tone. I prefer the aforementioned for the slow movement though. Speaking of which, I can’t get enough of that movement. It reminds me of Brahms’s sumptuous chamber music in that it has a mood that manages to be consoling, wistful, and melancholic at once - or maybe it’s actually the Cavatina from Beethoven’s 13 that I’n getting hints of. Regardless, the Stamitz play it like a rustic, sinple folk ballad; Martinu and Panocha like a cathartic Romantic poem. Both approaches are equally lovely.


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## Merl

Okay, I found the Vlach on YouTube. Here's the links.
















I'll have a listen later


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## Merl

Well that Vlach recording has really set the cat amongst the pigeons and made a difficult job even harder. A performance full of character and Czech charm! Only one thing is confusing me. The original Vlach quartet recorded this quartet (in mono ) in 1962 for Supraphon, exclusively (they only ever recorded for Supraphon). They stayed with Supraphon till the mid 70s and then disbanded. The new incarnation of the Vlachs, formed in the early 80s, recorded for anyone but Supraphon (Naxos, Bohemia, Marco Polo and Panton). This youtube recording of the Vlachs states 1962 on the notes on the upload but its not on Supraphon and is on the Panton label where the new Vlach quartet record. Furthermore, it sounds like clear stereo and has no analogue hiss or sound congestion. I'm confused. Theres no way Panton would have the rights to the Vlachs 1962 Supraphon recording. I supect this is a much later recording. Have a listen and see what you lot think. I'm off to do some detective work.

Edit: The complete Panton back-catalogue moved to Supraphon when it went under in the 1990s. Still doesnt explain why this recording sounds stereo but also is in an older performance style. More digging needed.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Well that Vlach recording has really set the cat amongst the pigeons and made a difficult job even harder. A performance full of character and Czech charm! Only one thing is confusing me. The original Vlach quartet recorded this quartet (in mono ) in 1962 for Supraphon, exclusively (they only ever recorded for Supraphon). They stayed with Supraphon till the mid 70s and then disbanded. The new incarnation of the Vlachs, formed in the early 80s, recorded for anyone but Supraphon (Naxos, Bohemia, Marco Polo and Panton). This youtube recording of the Vlachs states 1962 on the notes on the upload but its not on Supraphon and is on the Panton label where the new Vlach quartet record. Furthermore, it sounds like clear stereo and has no analogue hiss or sound congestion. I'm confused. Theres no way Panton would have the rights to the Vlachs 1962 Supraphon recording. I supect this is a much later recording. Have a listen and see what you lot think. I'm off to do some detective work.


I've just finished listening to it via Qobuz streaming and it goes to the top of my list. It seems to have the brawn of the Stamitz with the lyricism of the Martinu Quartet on Naxos. Based on one listen, it's my goto. Didn't notice that it's mono. Is it?


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I've just finished listening to it via Qobuz streaming and it goes to the top of my list. It seems to have the brawn of the Stamitz with the lyricism of the Martinu Quartet on Naxos. Based on one listen, it's my goto. Didn't notice that it's mono. Is it?


Not according to my headphones. The only thing i can think (if it is the 1962 recording) is that it was recorded in stereo but released in mono (not uncommon back in the late 50s/ early 60s) as many people in eastern Europe had little access to stereo equipment. Trying to find info on this one is proving difficult.

Edit: the 1962 account was recorded in stereo as i guessed and the album released in mono / stereo versions. Still doesnt explain how clean this sounds unless its had a full remaster. Sounds superb!


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## SearsPoncho

I just listened to the Stamitz Quartet's performance of the Martinu 7th for the second time. Interesting. The first movement was my favorite. The strong rhythmic drive (good catch, ACB) and neoclassical style actually reminded me of Prokofiev's 1st Symphony ("Classical"). The warm, lyrical second subject or episode occasionally interrupts and is eventually incorporated with the rest of the music as it progresses in what sounds like a kind of sonata-allegro form. I enjoyed it. For those doing comparative listening, the impassioned lyricism of the second movement might be the one to separate the men from the boys. I imagine it would be tempting and easy to get a bit schmaltzy with this music. Furthermore, I could see how a quartet could lose the clarity of line(s) and end up with a muddy mess, like a pianist who uses too much pedal. I've only heard the Stamitz Quartet's recording, and I'm not sure I'm convinced. I don't know if it's the music, the performance or the recording, but I will have to listen to it again. Same for the final movement, which has the rhythmic and neoclassical elements I enjoyed in the first movement. It's odd because at the start of each movement I thought that this was right up my alley, and I would surely like it, but the first movement was the only one that fully satisfied.

I must confess that Martinu was on my "Never Again" list. Out of the thousands of classical cds I have, only one contains any music by Martinu. I purchased that disc many years ago and I have no idea where it is or what's on it. What I do know is that it made the worst kind of impression on me, which is "Meh," or complete indifference. Nevertheless, this quartet did a much better job of piquing my interest in Martinu - he may well be off my Never Again list, and for that I thank Annaw.

* *EDIT*: I did listen to it again and enjoyed the second movement more; perhaps it actually does need to be more schmaltzy and romantic in between those neoclassical outer movements. This time, I enjoyed the 3rd movement significantly more, although I think it would greatly benefit from a more aggressive attack by the quartet. That's it: Martinu is officially off the Never Again List.


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> Not according to my headphones. The only thing i can think (if it is the 1962 recording) is that it was recorded in stereo but released in mono (not uncommon back in the late 50s/ early 60s) as many people in eastern Europe had little access to stereo equipment. Trying to find info on this one is proving difficult.
> 
> Edit: the 1962 account was recorded in stereo as i guessed and the album released in mono / stereo versions. Still doesnt explain how clean this sounds unless its had a full remaster. Sounds superb!


I love the performance--very energetic and full of character--and I agree it does sound very clear and clean for a recording of this vintage. There is something a little too bright about it for my taste. I feel like this must have been remastered and whoever cleaned it up boosted the highs. Still, really good recording.


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## Malx

A brief note - this is a quartet I didn't know so at the weekend I sampled a few of the quartets from the Panocha set, generally liked the overall sound of the recordings and the cut of the works - so I bought the set. It arrived Monday and I have to the 7th a few times. Due to continuing issues at home with family and friends' health problems I've been in no mood to listen to anything over the last few days so suffice to say I have enjoyed listening to the piece but have made no attempt at comparitive listening - I'm sure I'll be happy with the Panocha set.
Another fine choice.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> .. Due to continuing issues at home with family and friends' health problems I've been in no mood to listen to anything over the last few days....


Sorry to hear about your current difficulties, Malx. It's a trying time for us all at the moment. Just enjoy the music whenever you can. We'll all still be here blethering.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> A brief note - this is a quartet I didn't know so at the weekend I sampled a few of the quartets from the Panocha set, generally liked the overall sound of the recordings and the cut of the works - so I bought the set. It arrived Monday and I have to the 7th a few times. Due to continuing issues at home with family and friends' health problems I've been in no mood to listen to anything over the last few days so suffice to say I have enjoyed listening to the piece but have made no attempt at comparitive listening - I'm sure I'll be happy with the Panocha set.
> Another fine choice.


Sorry to hear this Malx - I do hope things wlli get better for everyone


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## Malx

Thanks guys, appreciated.


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## Burbage

It's Friday, so it's time to wonder why a piece was written at all. Not for any particular existential reason, but because I may as well have an aim to my listening, or it's just repetition for the sake of it. Though familiarity can work some reluctant magic, I don't find it the best of guides. I am very familiar with the interior design of open-plan offices, for example, but wouldn't spend time in them for fun.

In this case, though, the "why?" must first stand aside for "What's This?". The title has it down as a chamber concerto. A title which, together with the three movement structure, suggests we're in for something divertimentoesque, perhaps like the early Haydns, more froth and fun than sturm and drang, with all the good lines given to a virtuosic violin, while everyone else goes tumty-tumty till the finish. Though, for good or ill, I'm more familiar with the 2nd Trio, which isn't like that at all, despite being very much a concerto for orchestra that's missing an orchestra.

The 7th, however, follows a familiar concerto plan. The first movement's a train I'm happy to climb aboard, as it entertainingly lurches through a gallimaufrey of ideas, and juggles them very neatly. The second is placidly interesting, almost provocatively inoffensive as it noodles sweetly along with all the charm of a seductive tortoise, until it hits the ears with something like a trick of origami. I'm not sure I don't hear, amidst the duets, a quotation or two here, from Schubert or Taneyev or someone, a thread or two gently pulled out from all the velvet and tied up neatly, like a piece of invisible mending. And then there's the third, where Vivaldi* comes in and departs, as if dissected by Bruckner, leaving a conclusion that leaves me wondering what it was.

So that's what it is. Why did Martinu write it?

At this time, he'd been in New York for a while, found work and written plenty. Professionally, he was doing well. Personally, he'd fallen off a balcony, and had been recuperating slowly for a couple of years, while continuing to write things, including the edgier 6th. Some reckon the 7th a more a contemplative, homesick sort of piece, and I guess it might sound like that. But I'm reminded of the Korngold we listened to some weeks ago. That struck me as a homage to a Vienna that wasn't so much losing its Korngold as losing its position as the centre of the musical world. There's something of that here, too, but with a different angle. This isn't a New World piece or, to my ears, a very Czech piece or a farewell, either. If I was at all sentimental, I might suggest it sounds like hope.

And so to recordings. The recording I listened to was the Naxos recording, with the Martinu Quartet and, without a score to gaze at, it seems they play it well enough. At least, I've been able to listen to it twice a day without feeling I've missed anything or needing to spend more money or wanting to throw someone into a volcano. Which makes a pleasant change.

_* I guess that's the bit that reminds people of Haydn, presumably because it kicks off a bit maestoso, like Haydn's later quartets, but I don't hear much more than that. Perhaps I am listening wrong, but to me it sounds more like a pastiche, or quotation, of a Vivaldi concerto, and more baroque than classical._


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## Merl

Nice review, Burbage. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. The thing I like about the Martinu SQs Is they are quite different
The 5th, 6th and 7th are very enjoyable SQs. After playing through all those recordings here's my thoughts in summation..

*Talich* - superbly played and the brisk pacing is spot on for me in that last movement but the recording is so boxy and bass-light that I couldn't wholly recommend it. With better sound it would be at, or near, the top.
*Prazak* - another decent account, that is well recorded and played but for me it needs more vigour and 'Czechness' in the final movement. Still very enjoyable and the disc fillers are Intriguing pieces.
*Martinu* - this is a a really enjoyable performance with a more romantic warmth. The 2nd movement is lovely and the whole account is easily recommendable. Another fine Naxos SQ disc.
*Stamitz* - I own this impressive account and its an excellent reading full of slavic charm and passion. An excellent, well-balanced performance with the only drawback, personally, being a very reverberant recording but once you adapt to it it actually works well here. 
*Panocha* - the first recording I owned and its still a knockout version. The Panocha's playing isn't as rustic as the Stamitz (unfortunately) but the recording and the sheer beauty of their ensemble is a winning combination. The slow movement is sensual in their hands.

However, as excellent as the Panocha and Stamitz quartets are I wanted something that was a mix of the two, combining aural beauty, gorgeous tone, idiomatic playing and rustic, Czech charm so that last movement, in particular, didn't sound too Haydnesque and guess what? I found it in a recording I don't own!

*Top Pick*









So, from what I can gather this is a 1962 stereo recording by the original *Vlach quartet*, originally released on Supraphon (who now own the Panton label) but there is no way you'd think this was an older recording. The Vlach's playing is full of Czech charm and a real fullness of tone that had me hooked from the start. They play with a vivacity that I found infectious and this was a recording that oozed the loveliness of the Panochas and the bucolic charm of the Stamitz quartet. I think HP mentioned this too and was equally impressed with this one. I will try and get hold of this one as I want it in my collection. A terrific performance. Thank you, annaw, for a great pick this week.
_
*Incidentally, for some of you the Stamitz, Panocha or Martinu Quartets may resonate better as there was little in it. _


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think he already affirmed this, but just a reminder that *SearsPoncho* is up next.


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## HenryPenfold

Great summary, thank you Merl.

I must say (again) that the Vlach Quartet performance went straight to the top of my list after one listen, and stayed there.

Stamitz worthy runner-up; and there is nothing wrong with the Martinu Quartet on Naxos, it's just that I find I prefer a slightly more 'brawny' performance.

I did find that after hearing #7 a few times I did wander off and listened to his quartets 4, 5 & 6 and enjoyed them much more. Just sayin' .........



Merl said:


> Nice review, Burbage. I really enjoyed reading your thoughts. The thing I like about the Martinu SQs Is they are quite different
> The 5th, 6th and 7th are very enjoyable SQs. After playing through all those recordings here's my thoughts in summation..
> 
> *Talich* - superbly played and the brisk pacing is spot on for me in that last movement but the recording is so boxy and bass-light that I couldn't wholly recommend it. With better sound it would be at, or near, the top.
> *Prazak* - another decent account, that is well recorded and played but for me it needs more vigour and 'Czechness' in the final movement. Still very enjoyable and the disc fillers are Intriguing pieces.
> *Martinu* - this is a a really enjoyable performance with a more romantic warmth. The 2nd movement is lovely and the whole account is easily recommendable. Another fine Naxos SQ disc.
> *Stamitz* - I own this impressive account and its an excellent reading full of slavic charm and passion. An excellent, well-balanced performance with the only drawback, personally, being a very reverberant recording but once you adapt to it it actually works well here.
> *Panocha* - the first recording I owned and its still a knockout version. The Panocha's playing isn't as rustic as the Stamitz (unfortunately) but the recording and the sheer beauty of their ensemble is a winning combination. The slow movement is sensual in their hands.
> 
> However, as excellent as the Panocha and Stamitz quartets are I wanted something that was a mix of the two, combining aural beauty, gorgeous tone, idiomatic playing and rustic, Czech charm so that last movement, in particular, didn't sound too Haydnesque and guess what? I found it in a recording I don't own!
> 
> *Top Pick*
> 
> View attachment 153038
> 
> 
> So, from what I can gather this is a 1962 stereo recording by the original *Vlach quartet*, originally released on Supraphon (who now own the Panton label) but there is no way you'd think this was an older recording. The Vlach's playing is full of Czech charm and a real fullness of tone that had me hooked from the start. They play with a vivacity that I found infectious and this was a recording that oozed the loveliness of the Panochas and the bucolic charm of the Stamitz quartet. I think HP mentioned this too and was equally impressed with this one. I will try and get hold of this one as I want it in my collection. A terrific performance. Thank you, annaw, for a great pick this week.
> _
> *Incidentally, for some of you the Stamitz, Panocha or Martinu Quartets may resonate better as there was little in it. _


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think he already affirmed this, but just a reminder that *SearsPoncho* is up next.


And I don't care what he throws at me,for once, as I'm on holiday next week.


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## Carmina Banana

It is too bad that the Burbage summary comes on Friday. It always gives me food for thought and then, by the time I get my ideas together, we are on to a new composition. 
So, quickly, here are some half-formed Burbage-inspired thoughts about Martinu before we move on (unless I don’t post this in time):
After a lot of listening to the 7th quartet, a sprinkling of other chamber works and memories of some chamber music I have played, plus reading a small amount of biographical information, I am categorizing Martinu as one of those essentially apolitical composers who just want to construct good, solid music. He uses material of the past like a dystopian inventor who takes the used hubcaps and transistors from a previous civilization to construct a droid so he can have a companion. I think I put Ravel in this category also. His constructions are more dazzling, but also seem almost randomly plucked from the past (and sometimes the present). Part of this assessment of our current composer comes from my listening, but also from the bios. The stories of Martinu as a youngster seem to involve him listening to a lot of music and being determined to figure out how it works, going to a concert, hearing something and then writing it down note for note.
I have a lot of respect for this type of composer—someone who loves and reveres the past and knows a lot about it, but uses it to create original works of art for the present. This compared to one who wants to annihilate the past, or less destructive, one who doesn’t know the past and simply creates from their heart. All types can be great composers. I think part of my feelings on this are influenced by one of my teachers, a great composer who had an encyclopedic knowledge of music and who would, during lectures, grab a piano and start playing any little passage from a symphony that would illustrate his point. For memory, of course.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Of the four recordings I heard this week, I agree with several of you that the *Vlach* takes the cake. They have the lyricism of the Martinus, the distinct earthy flavor of the Panochas (in fact that rough, speech-like "Czech accent" in both the style of playing and tone quality is even more pronounced with the Vlachs) and the forward impetus of the Stamitz, combined into one delectable package marrying expressivity with sensibility. Of the other three I'd probably go Panocha - Stamitz - Martinu, although I really enjoyed them all and wouldn't say any of them were bad by any stretch of the imagination. Panocha has more of an improvisatory feel but I almost feel like their slow movement is _too_ espressivo with very thick vibrato. Stamitz is, as I mentioned, a more cool and detached interpretation with a more generalized (but still gorgeous) tone, but I like their unfussy approach to the slow movement and their finale is absolutely kickin'. Finally, the Martinu display much sensitivity overall but I couldn't quite get past their more "underplayed" approach. I don't like it when ensembles try to "prettify" everything with excessive lightness; especially this kind of folksy music needs more guts to it.

I found time to hear all six of Martinu's other quartets throughout the week and I must say that this little body of work is one of my finest musical discoveries of late. All of them I found absolutely delightful except the first two which had their uninspired portions. They are unabashed "throwback" works, not really modernistic in any sense of the word (the closest Martinu came to that is in the 6th, but still really tame compared to what his contemporaries were writing), but they display the optimism of the Slavic spirit in such wonderful ways, and the majority of my listening time this week has been occupied with them. I now consider them up there with all the rest of the top-notch string quartet sets of the 20th century.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think he already affirmed this, but just a reminder that *SearsPoncho* is up next.


.......................................................


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## SearsPoncho

I've been waiting months to nominate selections from Bach's The Art of Fugue. I thought there was a decent possibility that someone else would pick it, and I had Chausson's late quartet, which I'm fond of, as a backup. Shostakovich's 13th was also coming on strong and warranted consideration. When forum members brought up the fact that neither of Janacek's quartets had been chosen, the choice became obvious, and I was prepared to pick Janacek's 2nd quartet. In light of the foregoing, I will obviously be going with...Schubert.

This Week's Quartet: *Schubert's String Quartet #13 in A minor, D804 ("Rosamunde")*
The Recording I Listen To: Quartetto Italiano

After a week of Martinu, I decided that another Czech quartet from the first half of the 20th century might be a bit much and it would be better to punt Janacek's masterwork to another week. Returning to the Viennese classics seems like a nice change of pace at this point in the thread, and Schubert's only appearance was over a year ago. The "Death and the Maiden" Quartet and the 15th Quartet might be greater masterworks, but the Rosamunde is my favorite Schubert quartet, which automatically puts it in my Top 10.

For those doing comparative listening, I suspect many of you not only have a recording of the Rosamunde, but have heard multiple recordings and might even have a favorite. Please share your favorite recording with the group.

On a side note, I can empathize with Mal because my family is going through some serious health crises. I look forward to listening to the poetry of Schubert's melodies, which will hopefully provide some comfort. I wish you all the best of health.

Here's the Quartetto Italiano to kick things off:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Beauteous choice, SP! This thread has a funny penchant for featuring works that I have recently been thinking about. In this case, I’ve realized that I’m not very familiar at all with Schubert’s quartets outside of his last two, despite the fact that he is one of my top 5 composers. With Easter break this week, I think I’m in for a deep and exciting listening spell

Malx and SearsPoncho, I send my sincerest thoughts and prayers for you and your families. I am well aware of how difficult these circumstances can be, but great music has helped me to get through similar times in the past and I hope that it can for you as well.


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## Merl

SP, you cad! I've spent all the latter end of this week listening to Janacek SQs as I was sure you'd pick one of those. Now you throw in a total curveball. Oh well, I'll keep my notes for when we do get to Janacek. Lol :lol:

OK, here's a roughly thrown-together list of almost 70 recordings to pick from. I've probably missed a few. If so just let me know. Thankfully I'm off all week. Apologies for my scruffy writing today. I was rushing.


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## Bwv 1080

Going with Auryn, one of my new favorites thanks to this thread. I hardly ever listen to Schubert. While of course a great composer, he gets lost for me between Beethoven and Schumann, and to my ears lacks the rhythmic or harmonic bite of either


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## starthrower

I was obsessed with the C Major string quintet a couple of months back and I bought the Emerson 3 disc set so I'll go with them for now. Just by coincidence I've been listening to Blomstedt's Schubert symphony cycle last night and this morning.


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## HenryPenfold

Another great nomination!

Thank you SearsPoncho (and I hope that you and your family overcome your crises).

I'm not mad keen on Schubert in general, but I adore his late chamber music. Of the three last string quartets (#13 Rosamunde, #14 Death & The Maiden, and #15) I enjoy the chosen work most.

In _chez moi. _there is the Hagen, Emerson and Chiaroscuro. On a different day, I will prefer a different one of them! What I hanker for, though is the Quartetto Italiano. I shunned them from 30 years ago because my preference was for performances _sur instruments __d'__époque. 
_I think my taste has matured!

I look forward to this week's listening and commentary!​


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> SP, you cad! I've spent all the latter end of this week listening to Janacek SQs as I was sure you'd pick one of those. Now you throw in a total curveball. Oh well, I'll keep my notes for when we do get to Janacek. Lol :lol:
> 
> OK, here's a roughly thrown-together list of almost 70 recordings to pick from. I've probably missed a few. If so just let me know. Thankfully I'm off all week. Apologies for my scruffy writing today. I was rushing.
> 
> View attachment 153148


Wonderful choice! I have five recordings, one of them not on Merl's list!! I am listening to that one now, and enjoying it immensely. Looking forward to exchanging impressions.


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## Merl

I'm going to shortlist a load and go from there. I have a load of these so this should be interesting. The usual Schubert suspects will likely feature (but not definitely) but I'm hoping to find a few outlanders here. We'll see.



FastkeinBrahms said:


> Wonderful choice! I have five recordings, one of them not on Merl's list!! I am listening to that one now, and enjoying it immensely. Looking forward to exchanging impressions.


What is it, FKB? I can add it to my list.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I don't have much to say on Martinu. I listened to it 2 times and liked it, but didn't hunger for constant listening...I thought it was kind of normal compared to what I expected. Oho! Schubert! I like! For over 40 years my heart has been filled with Schubert. The only pieces I ever had bad thoughts about are the Wanderer fantasy and 9th symphony. I'll grow out of it, I'm sure. Schubert is forever my 3rd favorite, after Mozart and Bach. Said that again...


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Malx and SearsPoncho, I send my sincerest thoughts and prayers for you and your families. I am well aware of how difficult these circumstances can be, but great music has helped me to get through similar times in the past and I hope that it can for you as well.


I want to echo the same well wishes to everyone here who's dealing with tough times. We have our own share of it here, but I agree that this music (and this forum, in particular) has been a welcome distraction.

I'm looking forward to a few hours lost in this quartet over the next few days. I have the Auryn, Italiano, and Takacs on hand. I also see that the Taneyevs have recorded it, so I'll need to check them out, just because.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I'm looking forward to a few hours lost in this quartet over the next few days. I have the Auryn, Italiano, and Takacs on hand. I also see that the Taneyevs have recorded it, so I'll need to check them out, just because.


They're already on the shortlist (including the Taneyev). Lol.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> *SP, you cad*!
> 
> Guilty as charged.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> I'm going to shortlist a load and go from there. I have a load of these so this should be interesting. The usual Schubert suspects will likely feature (but not definitely) but I'm hoping to find a few outlanders here. We'll see.
> 
> What is it, FKB? I can add it to my list.


Not telling! It is a British quartet, and it blows the soulless Emerson recording out of the water, don't like that one at all, sorry, Allegro con Brio.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^For the record, I find pretty much everything the Emersons did to be soulless as well, though I was pleasantly surprised by their Grieg/Sibelius and their Berg. 

Curious to know about the recording you have in mind though FB.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Not telling! It is a British quartet, and it blows the soulless Emerson recording out of the water, don't like that one at all, sorry, Allegro con Brio.


Come on FKB. My review won't be complete without it! :lol:


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## Helgi

Late as usual but I've been listening to the Martinu this week, mostly Panocha but also the Martinu Quartet and Talich, and just now the Vlach recording - which I agree is really good.

This is my first exposure to Martinu's string quartets and I liked the work itself immediately; the first movement is so full of energy and character. So much so that the third movement feels a little lacking in comparison and leaves me with the impression that it's a bit lopsided. The rest of the quartets are now on my list of things to explore further!

I've been on a real Schubert kick over the past few days, but mostly piano sonatas - I _love_ his piano sonatas. Haven't spent as much time with the string quartets, but I recently acquired a recording of Rosamunde with the Artemis Quartet so that will be my starting point.


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## annaw

Ahh, Schubert is a wonderful pick! I'm a huge fan of his solo piano works and lieder, but haven't listened to his chamber music nearly as much. I love this quartet a lot, though. I'm listening to ABQ's recording at the moment, and the quartet seems to be an embodiment of very many qualities that I've become to closely connect with Schubert. For me, he is always the one among his contemporaries who was the best at creating an Austro-Germanic pastoral atmosphere, simultaneously wistful, solemn, and beautiful. 

There are so many recordings of it by big-name ensembles that I'm really tempted to start binge listening .


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Come on FKB. My review won't be complete without it! :lol:


Merl, have you heard the performance by the English chaps, the Endellion Quartet? It's rather good.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> Come on FKB. My review won't be complete without it! :lol:


Actually, I just reread your list, and, to my disappointment, it is on your list, after all: The Endellion. I am not sure it is exactly the same recording, though. It came with a BBC music magazine and was recorded in a London church. Since I am normally a bit underwhelmed by the BBC magazine give-aways, I listened to that recording first, in order to put it aside quickly. To my surprise , I was really taken in by its almost eery otherworldliness.

The Rosamunde is often considered a bit of comfort-food compared to the searing pain and desperation/resignation maelstrom of nos 14 and 15. But the Endellion recording, despite great beauty of tone, never stays at the surface (slight caveat on the main theme of the final movement, which is the hardest one to pull off, seemingly pretty and harmless, often an anti-climax, I have not yet found a fully satisfactory account).

I do not want to sound esoteric but the Endellion sound as if playing the music from a point in existence, where desperation and resignation have not been overcome (that would not be Schubert) but simply no longer matter. They manage to make the Rosamunde as "heavyweight " as nos 14 and 15. And this effect is achieved without any show-off effects. I listened to Emerson after this one, which was a mistake.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Actually, I just reread your list, and, to my disappointment, it is on your list, after all: The Endellion. I am not sure it is exactly the same recording, though. It came with a BBC music magazine and was recorded in a London church. Since I am normally a bit underwhelmed by the BBC magazine give-aways, I listened to that recording first, in order to put it aside quickly. To my surprise , I was really taken in by its almost eery otherworldliness.
> 
> The Rosamunde is often considered a bit of comfort-food compared to the searing pain and desperation/resignation maelstrom of nos 14 and 15. But the Endellion recording, despite great beauty of tone, never stays at the surface (slight caveat on the main theme of the final movement, which is the hardest one to pull off, seemingly pretty and harmless, often an anti-climax, I have not yet found a fully satisfactory account).
> 
> I do not want to sound esoteric but the Endellion sound as if playing the music from a point in existence, where desperation and resignation have not been overcome (that would not be Schubert) but simply no longer matter. They manage to make the Rosamunde as "heavyweight " as nos 14 and 15. And this effect is achieved without any show-off effects. I listened to Emerson after this one, which was a mistake.


Lol, and I know the Endellion recording well. Knew I'd not missed any major ones. Ps it's already on the shortlist. btw, I also agree that the final movement is a key one. If it's light and trivial it doesn't work. However, that first movement is the most important for me. I like the first violin to be heard, not balanced away into the background and that theme has to really grab me. I can take different styles here but it needs to hook me in. Beauty and bite!


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## Merl

Here's what I've shortlisted so far....plenty of well-known quartets didn't quite make the cut but not because they were bad but because I had to get rid of at least half and there were either better recordings, questions about interpretation or some glaring issues with the recordings omitted...

Takacs (2)
Artemis
Signum
Italiano
Mosaiques
Leipziger
Tetzlaff et al
ABQ (2)
Belcea
Lindsays
Kodaly
Endellion
Terpsycordes
Budapest 
Melos (Harmonium Mundi) 
Klenke
Hungarian
Fitzwilliam
Engegard
Chiaroscuro
Borodin 
Tokyo
Wihan
Doric
Auryn
Emerson
Allegri
Schumann
Taneyev
Hagen
Chilingirian
Prazak
Mandelring
Janacek
Sine Nomine

I'll narrow this group down to around 20 for my final review.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’m going to start my observations on this quartet with what may very well be a Schubertian cliché, but I still think it is applicable - the composition is essentially a song cycle. IMO, what Schubert does in his greatest instrumental works, is to come up with a series of diverse yet interconnected moods and devise the perfect melodies for each one, running them through subtle yet hugely effective sequences of harmonic development to flesh out their potential. The result of each movement is what some folks consider “minimalistic,” but you really have to put on the mind of a Romantic poet to appreciate it. For literary folks, think a multi-verse poem by Wordsworth or Shelley. When you plug into the character of the music it can be hypnotic and transfiguring, but I’m not sure if Schubert entirely works on the terms of “pure” or “abstract” music; it’s just not set up that way. At least that’s how my fanciful brain hears it. Anyway, I’m deeply struck by the melancholy nature of this quartet; those vocal melodies spin out endless laments, even in the upbeat finale there is an air of resignation. And instead of a scherzo, Schubert inserts a mellow, wistful Brahmsian “intermezzo.” I find this opposed to the 14th, which is more “anguish” than “melancholy” (and which I must admit is the one popular Schubert work that I don’t necessarily connect with) and the 15th, a daring blend of proto-Brucknerianisms and youthful Viennese throwbacks. Delicious stuff. I identify with a remark made last week (I think by Carmina Banana) that this music would be lovely to hear in a very intimate concert - the musicians need to take lessons from great lieder interpreters like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Peter Schreier - and that’s the impression I want to get from my “ideal” recording of the quartet. Is this a simplistic view of Schubert’s music? Maybe. But IMO, it is the very soul of the composer and more than many others he resists attempts to cut out the “programmatic” nature of the material.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> However, that first movement is the most important for me. I like the first violin to be heard, not balanced away into the background and that theme has to really grab me. I can take different styles here but it needs to hook me in. Beauty and bite!


Merl, I'm glad you included the Borodins on your shortlist. They might not be the first group you think of for this music, but to my (VERY) untrained ear they achieve what you're talking about in the first movement. That violin just takes off for me, in a way that I haven't quite heard anywhere else yet. (Am I crazy here? Quite possible, especially lately...)


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, I'm glad you included the Borodins on your shortlist. They might not be the first group you think of for this music, but to my (VERY) untrained ear they achieve what you're talking about in the first movement. That violin just takes off for me, in a way that I haven't quite heard anywhere else yet. (Am I crazy here? Quite possible, especially lately...)


Steve, I think very highly of the Borodin recording and agree they really get the opening movement just right. There's a few others that have really surprised me too that weren't from the usual suspects. The list of recordings that I would happily recommend but that won't make the final list is growing too (eg Alban Berg). I've some more serious listening to do in the next day or so and I'll reveal more.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl and ACB both made salient points. Yes, I believe the combination of beauty and bite is crucial in this one. Melancholy, a Schubert trademark, is especially important as well. My 2 cents?

This is a masterpiece in grey; it does not operate in black and white. It's a tricky masterpiece, and not an unequivocally clear statement on darkness and despair, like the the Death and the Maiden Quartet. If one is willing to accept this grey area, it is haunting and beautiful in its own way, and as I said, it's my favorite Schubert quartet. 

I believe it's actually the final two movements that are the most difficult to pull off for the same reason that Shostakovich is difficult to perform, where the music conveys an attempted fake or forced smile in the face of hardship. The last two movements remind me of what Shostakovich said about the conclusion of his 5th Symphony: "You ARE happy, you WILL celebrate; DO YOU UNDERSTAND!" Meanwhile, the State is pointing a gun to force these attempted emotions. 

As for the Schubert (who was ill and wouldn't live much longer), in the 3rd movement we hear the trappings of supposedly happy Viennese music in compound time (1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3...), yet it can't quite hide the melancholy, except perhaps the Trio. The Finale again makes attempts at lightness, folk music and frivolity, but the melancholy is barely concealed and the composer is tired and cannot feign joy any further. The Finale occasionally breaks into some moments of imitative polyphony, which was hardly Schubert's forte, but which is done well. We end in that grey area. If you want a quartet that operates in black and white, this is not the quartet for you. As I stated, if you accept the grey, it's a powerful, occasionally understated masterwork.

Despite all these elements, I'm with Merl: it's the achingly beautiful first movement which continues to draw me to this piece. The Quartetto Italiano might take it slowly, but I think they bring out the best qualities of that amazing opening movement. I heard the Emerson Quartet's recording and didn't like it at all.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> ...... I heard the Emerson Quartet's recording and didn't like it at all.


Just curious. Why is there so much hate of the Emersons? I dont get it. They've made some excellent recordings over the years, some good, some average and some duffers....just like many other quartets yet they always seem to get a real rough ride on forums but not with the critics. Granted this is not one of their best but they're still better than at least 50% of the recordings here, in my book. Its a decent, if not arresting, reading of the quartet, played with a lot of flair and a suitable degree of mystery. They might miss the melancholy of the piece but its no more than most others. Theyre not helped by DGs dodgy recording but you cant blame them for that. Although the Emersons arent going to make my final list id still love to know what makes them everyone's whipping boys. Im not knocking anyone here but after reading years of negative comments on a few forums and groups id really like to get to the bottom of this.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Just curious. Why is there so much hate of the Emersons? I dont get it. They've made some excellent recordings over the years, some good, some average and some duffers....just like many other quartets yet they always seem to get a real rough ride on forums but not with the critics. Granted this is not one of their best but they're still better than at least 50% of the recordings here, in my book. Its a decent, if not arresting, reading of the quartet, played with a lot of flair and a suitable degree of mystery. They might miss the melancholy of the piece but its no more than most others. Theyre not helped by DGs dodgy recording but you cant blame them for that. Although the Emersons arent going to make my final list id still love to know what makes them everyone's whipping boys. Im not knocking anyone here but after reading years of negative comments on a few forums and groups id really like to get to the bottom of this.


Merl, I actually agree with you. I'm not an Emerson hater, and probably have more of their recordings than any other quartet , with the possible exception of the Quartetto Italiano. I limited my remarks to just the Schubert quartet. Other than that, I have enjoyed their Mozart, their Schubert Quintet with Rostropovich, their excellent Brahms Clarinet Quintet with Shifrin(?), their Tchaikovsky, Borodin and Dvorak disc, and even their Ravel and Debussy, among many others. They just don't do it for me in this one.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, I actually agree with you. I'm not an Emerson hater, and probably have more of their recordings than any other quartet , with the possible exception of the Quartetto Italiano. I limited my remarks to just the Schubert quartet. Other than that, I have enjoyed their Mozart, their Schubert Quintet with Rostropovich, their excellent Brahms Clarinet Quintet with Shifrin(?), their Tchaikovsky, Borodin and Dvorak disc, and even their Ravel and Debussy, among many others. They just don't do it for me in this one.


Well that's fair...SP. I just wondered why they're so vilified by others. Is it DG syndrome, dya think or something else? They're hardly the worst quartet in the world by a long chalk.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My antipathy to the Emersons, obtained from a decent familiarity with their Beethoven, Schubert, Ravel, Bartok, and Brahms, stems from what I hear as a cold mechanical nature to their playing. They are technically brilliant but IMO fail much of the time to reach the heart of the music. To my ears have very pronounced dynamic contrasts, harsh attacks, and a generally monochrome approach. They often sound too as if they have professionally planned everything down to the last detail leaving little room for spontaneity and the improvisational approach that tugs my heartstrings, and resulting in an artificially mannered facade. I prefer more warmth and heart and would much rather hear a quartet with intonation issues but with something unique and expressive to say rather than a “perfect” performance with little to communicate. This is a big reason why I’m an enthusiast of historical recordings. This is, of course, a totally subjective take and I expect many will disagree with it. It all comes down to what we prioritize in performances but I try to listen to everything across all spectra and have deep respect for those with different preferences.


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## Josquin13

Great choice, this is an underrated quartet, in my view.

From what I can remember, the Orlando Quartet, Takacs Quartet, Quartetto Italiano, Alban Berg Quartett, and Hagen Quartet all play this quartet very well. The Leipziger String Quartett, Auryn Quartet, and Melos Stuttgart Quartet may be worth hearing, too, but I've not listened to their recordings in a long time (btw, each of those quartets made very good recordings of the complete Schubert String Quartets 1-15, and the Melos Quartett additionally re-recorded Schubert's last three SQs for Harmonia Mundi). I might also get my Chilingirian Quartet recording out and give it a spin, too, since I haven't listened to their Rosamunde in a long time, either. Lastly, I wish I had the Kodaly Quartet's recording in my collection, since I recall liking their Schubert No. 15 a lot earlier in our thread.

For those that didn't know the Orlando Quartet recorded the 'Rosamunde' Quartet, they did! Philips made a film of the original group playing this work. You can tell that it's the original line up because the cellist is leading the performance from the 1st violinist's position. I don't think their performance was ever released on CD though. But I'm not certain of that. Philips should have included the Orlando's "Rosamunde" on their recording of Quartet no. 14, "Death and the Maiden": 



, since that release was short measure for a CD. But they didn't. In any event, as luck would have it, some kind person posted the Orlando's film on You Tube just four days ago!, which is very timely for our thread, since it's as fine as their No. 14:






Here too is the Takacs Quartet's performance, which I like as well: 




The Hagen Quartet recording on DG is good, too, but they're not quite as soulful or red blooded as the Orlando & Takacs Quartets in this music (there's also a film of the Hagens playing the quartet in concert, it's on YT):


















For those that like Quarteto Italiano's performance, you may be interested to know that Pentatone has made a very fine remaster of their recording, as part of their superb DSD hybrid SACD "Remastered Classics" series, & the sound is much improved: https://www.pentatonemusic.com/rc-schubert-string-quartets-quartetto-italiano. (But again, couldn't they have included Quartetto Italiano's excellent No. 15 as well? in addition to nos. 13 & 10...)

I know I've not been commenting much lately, but I've still been listening to each of the weekly selections, and have enjoyed them all, so thanks to everyone for making such worthwhile, interesting selections! (I did write some comments in response to Berg's Lyric Suite, but didn't get around to posting it, and it's so late now... it's best to move on.)

P.S. Malx, I too am sorry to hear about the health issues in your family presently.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Allegro Con Brio said:


> My antipathy to the Emersons, obtained from a decent familiarity with their Beethoven, Schubert, Ravel, Bartok, and Brahms, stems from what I hear as a cold mechanical nature to their playing. They are technically brilliant but IMO fail much of the time to reach the heart of the music. To my ears have very pronounced dynamic contrasts, harsh attacks, and a generally monochrome approach. They often sound too as if they have professionally planned everything down to the last detail leaving little room for spontaneity and the improvisational approach that tugs my heartstrings, and resulting in an artificially mannered facade. I prefer more warmth and heart and would much rather hear a quartet with intonation issues but with something unique and expressive to say rather than a "perfect" performance with little to communicate. This is a big reason why I'm an enthusiast of historical recordings. This is, of course, a totally subjective take and I expect many will disagree with it. It all comes down to what we prioritize in performances but I try to listen to everything across all spectra and have deep respect for those with different preferences.


It would be silly to hate any musicians dedicated to what they are doing, and the Emersons most brilliantly are. I think they are just so determined to be unsentimental, and sentimentality is a great risk with Schubert, that they come across as very cold, and the result with Schubert I find incredibly boring. I actually like their Bartok quartets, which suit their style much better.


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## Merl

Here's a heap of recordings that are recommendable and made my first cut but they're not in my final rundown. Nothing 'wrong' with any of these (far from it) but I prefer others. All fine accounts. If you want a reason why I left any of these out just ask. 

Alban Berg 74 & 85
Verdi
Signum
Diogenes
Hungarian
Sine Nomine
Klenke
Tokyo
Emerson
Terpsycordes
Hugo Wolf


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## HenryPenfold

I've been enjoying a prolonged listen and re-acquaintance with this marvellous quartet over the last few days, alternating between two of the three recordings I have; Chiaroscuro and Emerson (Hagen yet to come), augmented by Hi-Res streaming of Quartetto Italiano via Qobuz.

My thoughts so far are that there are many ways to skin a cat. 

The Emersons go about the music with a sharpness of attack and unison of ensemble that is in many passages in the music, utterly breathtaking. A beauty of its own definition. 

They seem to be able to deliver the most eruptive chords in a powerful, but highly refined manner, while playing the quietest and subtle passages with deft and sympathetic artistry. in short an accomplished and expert performance of beauty. 

I can see why the Emersons are so highly regarded by fans and critics alike, and have sold so many LPs & CDs down the years. 

What more can I say about the Quartetto Italiano that hasn't already been said loud and long? There is a beauty and poise about the Quartetto Italiano that other ensembles cannot match. They are unique, in my opinion, but one must be careful not to overlook their technical mastery of any music they play. There is an interesting anecdote from the early days involving Furtwangler. Whilst understanding their enormous technical prowess, he urged them to develop the expressive element of their playing - advice that they must have heeded. Almost needless to say, I have ordered a set of the late Schubert Quartets and eagerly await delivery!

The Chiaroscuro were at the top of my list until recently, largely due to a magnificent CD containing Mozart's Dissonance and the Rosamunde. However, while I can't quite put my finger on it, I'm not quite enjoying it as much as the Emerson and the Quartetto Italiano. But it's only Tuesday and there's plenty of listening to come this week!


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## starthrower

Italiano's, and Lindsay's sound good to me. I haven't bothered to unpack my "soulless" Emerson set. I haven't listened to it enough to decide but as I mentioned once before, the CD mastering definitely wins the soulless award.


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## Merl

Jos, that Orlando performance is great. Really wish it had been issued on cd as its got great presence and it would be near or at the top. Damn. I'm gonna do some more digging to see if it even made it to LP.

Edit; it made it to LP and CD. 1987 release. I want this one!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I just put on the Chiaroscuro quartet recording from 2011. I don't think there's anything wrong. With quartet interpretations I try to accept what I hear and can't put a finger on details when I'm just listening. It's very different when I hear classical guitar recordings! Especially if I also play the piece myself. What I often notice in stringquartets is the reverb. Chiaroscuro sounds nice and full and not too much reverb, making it natural sounding. I also define music in subjective and objective, both compositions and interpretations. With that I mean that some music is emotional/subjective and some is abstract/objective. Romantic music is more subjective and classicism is objective. I think the Chiaroscuros play Schubert in a classicistic manner, which is the way I like it. I'm not so fond of performers smearing their personality on a piece of music, but of course that is very common and respectable. I like the music to be expressed through the musician instead of the musician expressed through the music, if that makes sense.


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## Josquin13

Merl,

Thanks for finding that Orlando Quartet CD! I didn't know about it. Onto the wish list it goes. Isn't it time that some label put together a comprehensive box set for the Orlando Quartet? I keep thinking that I own all of their recordings, & then every so often one pops up that I didn't know about, such as recently their Shostakovich disc, for instance. Plus, I know they made some radio recordings with pianist Youri Egorov, but I've never seen them.

I agree that the Orlando's Rosamunde performance is first rate. However, I wanted to point out that the You Tube clip mistakenly lists Istvan Parkanyi as the first violinist, and it was actually John Harding, who had replaced Parkanyi sometime around 1987 or 88 (?). Therefore, it was the 2nd line up of the Orlando Quartet in the film & not the original line up, as I had mistakenly written in my previous post. Although the group were still being led by cellist Stefen Metz, which is what I suspect Parkanyi may have had a problem with. When he reformed the group as the Parkanyi Quartet, with a new cellist, that unusual practice didn't continue.

Here too is a link to the Philips VHS video: http://www.videocollector.co.uk/quartet-schubert-string-quartet-op-29---rosamunde/34360. It's too bad that Philips never released the performance on CD (I assume), as I would prefer to buy a Philips issue of it.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Finished 2 Rosamundes in a day! Artemis was the second one and on headphones, which became a different experience. Artemis is a quartet I often listen to and so is Chiaroscuro, so I don't have a favorite.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I am looking forward to Merl's thoughts about Artemis. I really like their Beethoven. Their Rosamunde recording for me was a bit of a roller coaster of impressions, but I'll wait for his comments.


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## HenryPenfold

This morning I've been listening to the third CD of the Rosamunde that I have, the Austrian combo, the Hagen Quartet. Recorded in 1985 and released by Deutsche Grammophon.

It's a very good performance, extremely well recored and not too closely miked.

The Hagens seem to render the melodies in a more vivid manner than other quartets and the lead lines have a singing quality to match that of the Quartetto Italiano. A perceived broadness in the first movement adds to this.

In the finale, there is no sense of the perfunctory (as can sometimes happen) and none of the attractive music-making that is achieved in the previous movements is lost. I'd be happy if this was the only recording I had.


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## Merl

Oops!
........ .......... .


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## Merl

Of the last 3 quartets the Rosamunde has always been my 2nd fave after the 15th, with DATM coming a narrow 3rd. I've lived with the Italiano, Chilingirian and Melos (both versions) on CD and a huge host of others (Artemis, Emersons, etc) on the HD for years but it's been great finding new recordings. As the outer movements are my favourites I will always listen out for those first so getting those right is a minimum requirement but the inner movements need a steady hand too. I can take broader readings but the playing and mood has to be convincing. It doesn't matter if that summons a mood of wistful nostalgia or dark melancholy as long as I'm sold on it. I'm a sucker for a sweetly floated andante and a finale that's balanced between dance and dream. It's not a necessity, though but I do prize a high degree of intimacy in the Rosamunde. 

Schubert used the theme of Rosamunde on a number of occasions. For example, in Romanze aus "Rosamunde", D. 797/3b. Rosamunde is the princess of Cyprus. To save her life, her father, before being murdered, asks shepherds to take care of her as their daughter. When she turns eighteen, Rosamunde knows the truth about her past and claims the throne. At some point in the proceedings, Rosamunde returns to where she grew up and that's where this quartet comes in for me. It's full of nostalgia, longing, melancholy, thoughts of happier times and occasional bouts of darkness but it's subtle. The use of A minor (my favourite key for music) often triggers this kind of mood in me, especially used in certain chord progressions.


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## Merl

I was going to give it a few days to post this but just resampling these I'm fairly happy with my conclusions. The Rosamunde is a lovely quartet. As I've touched on before, getting the balance right is tricky as it's a 'grey' quartet, not as immediately touched with the sadness of the 14th or imbued with the haunting qualities of the 15th. I've listened to well over 70 recordings and here's my final list of the highly recommended or better recordings. Your fave may be here but if not explore a few of these. You may find a recording that resonates better than your current go-to recording.

*Highly recommended*

*Italiano* - a justified classic. It's broader than most and the menuet may not dance as others but their playing is so convincing its easy to hear why many love this account. 
*Leipziger* - perfectly balanced between a classical and romantic approach this is a great starter for this quartet. 
*Belcea* - strong, clean, strident and articulate. A fine recording. More emotion would have placed it higher. 
*Kodaly* - superb sense of ensemble, lyrical, rhythmic and the Kodalys' smooth lines and flow nails it. 
*Endellion* - punchy, not too classical and honest.
*Mosaiques* - I struggled with this at first but it's won me over. The gut strings give it a very dark, moody feel and tempi are broad (especially in the 1st movement) but it's a real grower of an HIP performance. 
*Emerson* - this has been in and out of the list but I've decided to keep it in as its so brilliantly played.
*Melos* (Harmoniun Mundi) - much better and punchier than their 70s recording this grittier and more agile performance uses dynamics very effectively.
*Chilingirian* - the more blended sound may be out of vogue now but the ensemble playing is so winning and their realisation so heartfelt it's impossible for me to leave it out.
*Fitzwilliam* - recorded as part of a 50 year celebration of the quartet's formation this is a sweet-toned, beautifully played and recorded, honest reading.
*Chiaroscuro* - classical, unmannered account that has great charm with repeated listens. 
*Auryn* - little vibrato and beautifully caught. Exemplary playing with plenty of passion. 
*Allegri* - Full, rich sound with some idiomatic touches. I liked this a lot. 
*Schumann* - gloriously recorded with lots of personality and super finale. 
*Taneyev* - outer movements are brisk with inner movements lovingly executed. 
*Mandelring* - a real grower. All-rounder with rich sound and feel. 
*Takacs* (1993) - their first go and it's a fine reading that impresses from the off. 
*Budapest* - warmly romantic and very broad but the Budapests sell it through the beauty of their playing and unity of ensemble. 
*Hagen* - highly consistent, musical account that just lacks a tiny bit in the emotion stakes to take it to the very top. 
*Doric* - idiomatic and some will find the Dorics' liberties a little off-putting or may feel this sounds mannered in places but they really make this a memorable recording.

*Extra Special*

*Artemis* - as impressive as their other late Schubert with great sound, grit and phrasing. 
*Tetzlaff, Tetzlaff, Roberts, Weithaas* - exciting, impulsive, brisk, brooding, on-the-fly 2013 live recording with some glorious individual playing. 
*Lindsays* - vibrant, highly individual reading with one of my favourite opening movements. 
*Borodin* - brisk tempi, powerful and punchy dynamics and a darker more melancholy feel. 
*Wihan* - what a recorded sound! Superb live performance that is vital and slightly happier but it works brilliantly. 
*Prazak* - Full, vibrant account with a strong personality and powerful attacks. 
*Engegard* - this one has had me returning to it the most and it's a remarkably clear and concise reading. The recording is sensational but it's how this unfolds that keeps me returning. Beautiful music-making in a realistic and engaging acoustic. This could eventually even creep to the top.

*Top picks*









*Janacek Quartet * - I got a mono vinyl flac rip of this 1962 Supraphon performance from a friend many years ago, thanks to an enthusiastic recommendation, and its a belter (it's never been issued on cd / digitally to the best of my knowledge - please correct me if I'm wrong). It's a brisker reading with bold tones and dynamic shifts but I love this idiosyncratic and vivid, Czech reading. This needs a digital remaster and re-release. By the way, this was recorded in stereo and released in both mono and stereo formats back in the day but either way the closely-miked recording is superb for its age.









*Takacs (2006)* - yeah I know it's an easy choice and a popular one (it was widely loved by the critics) but the Takac's remake is special in every way. For a start Hyperion gave this their very best sound with a fantastic acoustic which captures the wistfulness of the Takac's approach and the marvellous dynamic contrasts of each movement perfectly. The balance of each instrument just feels ideal and the ensemble sound produced here nods to both the classical and romantic eras, intelligently. The opening movement sounds more eerily and achingly melancholic than many others and that slight wiryness to the strings really does give this an edge (as in the Janacek recording). The coupling of DATM is equally brilliant. As a recording of chamber music it has few equals. It's that good.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Once again, a most impressive list of reviews, Merl, thank you so much, I will revisit it in the future. 

I listened to the 1965 Juilliard recording today, and I was most pleasantly surprised. Of course, the dry and gritty not too great sound was there again, but they have a really wonderful organic flow in the second movement and play the third in a wonderfully mysterious, whistful way. The final movement is also greatly played, no cutsey naivete there. The first movement has great moments in the more lyrical passages, but they also make the higher forte passages sound positively ugly at times. 

What I don't particularly like about the Artemis is the way they really lean in the chords played by all four strings. It always makes me think: Yea, I get it, this is an important chord. I also don't like it when they slow down to add emphasis. The Juilliard make do without such mannerisms and let the music speak for itself . An approach not too dissimilar from the Quartetto Italiano, who have a more beautiful tone, though. 

Of the five recordings I listened to on CD, I would rate as follows:
Tied in first place:
Quartetto Italiano, Endellion 
2. Juilliard 1965
3. Artemis
4. Emerson


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Wow! Nice reviews Merl! I'm on my 5th recording in 2 days. Melos on DG. They are maybe the first quartet I ever heard in my life since my father had some LPs in the 70s (I wore out Mozart no. 40 with Böhm)! The ones I heard were Chiaroscuro, Artemis, Fitzwilliam, Belcea and now Melos (the wrong one?). I will also hear the Leipzigers and Emersons (always!!) and see I can keep going...Takacs has to be bought then...Will Hyperion ever be on spotify?


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## HenryPenfold

Many thanks for the round-up, Merl. Plenty to come back to, too.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

...had to download the Takács from iTunes and now have 4 of their Hyperion recordings. Just because Merl said it was 1 of 2 top recordings. You have too much power...


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> ...had to download the Takács from iTunes and now have 4 of their Hyperion recordings. Just because Merl said it was 1 of 2 top recordings. You have too much power...


I have no power. I'm just some idiot who likes to listen to multiple versions of the same work. If I was you, I'd just ignore me. I'm the last person you should be paying any attention to.



Kjetil Heggelund said:


> .. Will Hyperion ever be on spotify?


I very much doubt it (sadly).


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## Allegro Con Brio

For those who don't want to pay for that Hyperion recording, the Takacs's earlier disc with an identical pairing on Decca is available on streaming and sounds equally fantastic to my ears (at least as compared with the 2-minute samples from the later version available from Presto) and has a more natural recording acoustic rather than being so close-up. Tempi may be the slightest bit slower in the earlier version but otherwise the interpretations are very similar. Totally agreed with Merl that the Takacs's Schubert is remarkable (I'm also a huge fan of their Bartok and Beethoven); they bring a style totally their own and play with consummate imagination and expressivity while communicating the soul of the music. Yes, this is the lieder-like interpretation I was looking for!

Also a predictable choice, but the Italiano is another gold standard for me in Schubert. A bit more warm and "safe" compared to the more daring, rough-hewn Takacs, but they really take the time to savor the poetry and trace out Schubert's elongated narratives with perfect naturalness. If you're familiar with singers, it's like Fritz Wunderlich singing lieder as opposed to Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau; more emphasis on sheer beauty and there's nothing wrong with that at all. And the Borodin is also a must-hear with just exquisite probing pathos - the four players all seem to have personalities of their own if that makes any sense, but the performance still coalesces into a beautiful whole.

I only have the commitment to listen to so many more performances (holy smokes, Merl, _over 70?????_) but I'd like to sneak in at least a couple.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For those who don't want to pay for that Hyperion recording, the Takacs's earlier disc with an identical pairing on Decca is available on streaming and sounds equally fantastic to my ears (at least as compared with the 2-minute samples from the later version available from Presto) and has a more natural recording acoustic rather than being so close-up. Tempi may be the slightest bit slower in the earlier version but otherwise the interpretations are very similar. .


Agreed, there was very little between the two performances but I do prefer the more close-up and immediate Hyperion recording (it sounds stunning even on a crap set of earbuds like mine). They are noticeably broader in the andante of the their first recordiing but, as you said ACB, their earlier effort is similarly impressive. I heartily recommend any of the ones I've mentioned and there are plenty of very decent ones from the likes of the Diogenes, Tokyo, Klenke, ABQ and Terpsycordes too that were narrowly out of the main list. All fine recordings.we're like kids in a sweet shop with this quartet.

PS: bear in mind that I skip-listened to quite a lot of these, ACB, when I was ruling out recordings for the first cut. I may have possibly missed a few good ones but I certainly didn't miss the ones that really stood out.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl: Wow, that was quick! I thought it would take over half a week to get through that. Next time, I'll be more sadistic. 

ACB, Henry, FastkeinBrahms, et al.: Great analyses and recommendations. I'm also a fan of the Takacs Beethoven and Bartok (with one big exception).

Interestingly enough, Gramophone recommends Takacs, Belcea and the Quartetto Italiano. I believe the Artemis was also a favorite of some critics.


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## StevehamNY

Merl, thank you for another great roundup. Hard to argue with the final choice. Sometimes the easy choice is easy for good reason. And this is how you make an album cover, by the way. (Can we still say "album"?)

One general question I would like to ask the board: With a discography so lopsided toward the later quartets (Presto shows 155 recordings of SQ14, for instance, and 9 of SQ2), how worthwhile are these earlier works? I haven't spent that much time seeking them out yet, but this week makes me wonder if I'm missing something.


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, thank you for another great roundup. Hard to argue with the final choice. Sometimes the easy choice is easy for good reason. And this is how you make an album cover, by the way. (Can we still say "album"?)
> 
> One general question I would like to ask the board: With a discography so lopsided toward the later quartets (Presto shows 155 recordings of SQ14, for instance, and 9 of SQ2), how worthwhile are these earlier works? I haven't spent that much time seeking them out yet, but this week makes me wonder if I'm missing something.


I recently bought that Pentatone remaster of the Quartetto Italiano recording of the Rosamunde, mentioned by somebody on this thread. That one also contains no. 10, which is absolutely lovely. The last movement should make any listener happy.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, thank you for another great roundup. Hard to argue with the final choice. Sometimes the easy choice is easy for good reason. And this is how you make an album cover, by the way. (Can we still say "album"?)
> 
> One general question I would like to ask the board: With a discography so lopsided toward the later quartets (Presto shows 155 recordings of SQ14, for instance, and 9 of SQ2), how worthwhile are these earlier works? I haven't spent that much time seeking them out yet, but this week makes me wonder if I'm missing something.


The reason the later quartets have been recorded more is they are masterpieces. They speak a different musical language than the first 11. The earlier ones are fine too but they are the product of a teenager learning his craft. The late quartets are stunning in their development and scale and its just a shame schubert didn't live longer to knock out another set of later quartets ( could you imagine?). One performance that has caught my ear in the past few days and I've just played it again today is the Diogenes one. Although I can't add it into my highly recommended recordings here I'm adding it to my blog post (I'm blogging all these reviews so I don't lose them).


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## Malx

I've spent time with my two recordings of Schubert - Endellion & Artemis. The finer attributes of both performances have been outlined by others far more eloquently than I could ever do so I'll merely add - that as with many masterworks this quartet is open to different approaches that make equally valid cases for their interpretative styles.
I found the Endellions a bit more warm and cuddly than the Artemis, less attack but by no means laid back. I jotted down the word 'urban' whilst listening to the Artemis disc - do they represent a city view of the piece in comparison to the Endellion's marginally more suburban take?
I can't declare a preference for one over the other as I enjoyed both equally and could live with either if forced to have only one on the shelves.
Over the last few months I have had my mind changed with regard to some of Schubert's late chamber works some of which I previously regarded as overlong. Perhaps just making the point that with concentrated listening we can all start to hear things which may have been unheard in the past - or maybe thats just me!


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## HenryPenfold

I think I've arrived at my final preference regarding the 'Rosamunde', at least from the recordings in my collection.

At the beginning, my favoured recording was the Chiaroscuro. But I was quickly taken by the Emerson (post #2487) and then the Hagen Quartet (post #2494). 

I really enjoyed the Quartetto Italiano on Philips (streamed from Qobuz), so much so that I ordered the 2 CD set which arrived a couple of days ago. Having played this set through a few times, enjoying string quartets 14 & 15 very much as well, I settled on the their recording of the 'Rosamunde' as my favourite. These musicians have been growing on me very much over the last few years, having initially overlooked them years ago in my desire for all things HIPP.

The Takacs on Hyperion is very tempting and is available at a good price as a download (my preference). However, I shall be exercising some self constraint and stick with what I've got.


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## mparta

HenryPenfold said:


> I think I've arrived at my final preference regarding the 'Rosamunde', at least from the recordings in my collection.
> 
> At the beginning, my favoured recording was the Chiaroscuro. But I was quickly taken by the Emerson (post #2487) and then the Hagen Quartet (post #2494).
> 
> I really enjoyed the Quartetto Italiano on Philips (streamed from Qobuz), so much so that I ordered the 2 CD set which arrived a couple of days ago. Having played this set through a few times, enjoying string quartets 14 & 15 very much as well, I settled on the their recording of the 'Rosamunde' as my favourite. These musicians have been growing on me very much over the last few years, having initially overlooked them years ago in my desire for all things HIPP.
> 
> The Takacs on Hyperion is very tempting and is available at a good price as a download (my preference). However, I shall be exercising some self constraint and stick with what I've got.


HIPP or not, the Italians played everything without a score. That bespeaks an interaction with the music that is a step beyond, and I think it shows. The sound from Philips is a bit limited compared to new recordings, and there's nothing nutty in their performances to grab the attention for attention's sake. :trp:

So good for them. I grew up with their Beethoven and Mozart. still love it although I probably hear the Franz Schubert Quartett Wien in the Mozart most often now.


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## Josquin13

Merl,

I'm surprised the Orlando Quartet didn't even make it onto your lower end list. On re-listening, did you decide that it wasn't worthy? or did you discount the CD because it's not readily available? Did anyone else listen to the performance, & not like it? I'd be interested to know why? I ask because I thought I'd found a gem.

I was also interested to see that the later Takacs recording held sway over the earlier Takacs (as they're mostly different players). While I've liked what I've heard from the later Takacs group on Hyperion, such as their wonderful Haydn SQs Ops. 71 & 74, I tend to slightly prefer the earlier all Hungarian group, & even in Haydn (such as their remarkable Op. 76 set: 



, as well as their Op. 77, & Op. 103 recording on Eloquence:https://www.eloquenceclassics.com/artists/takacs-quartet/). So, I'm curious now to hear their later "Rosamunde" quartet on Hyperion.

I'm pleased that someone--FastkeinBrahms--followed my recommendation regarding Quartetto Italiano's Schubert (SQs nos. 10 & 13) on Pentatone's hybrid SACD "Remastered Classics". Though it's short measure, that disc is a treasure (as are a number of the other discs in the "Remastered Classics" series, such as the Grumiaux/Arrau Beethoven Violin Sonatas, Wilhelm Kempff's Liszt, and the Brendel/Marriner Mozart Piano Concertos--which are likewise nice to have in improved sound). But unfortunately, Pentatone's expert remastering of some the best quadraphonic Philips & DG analogue recordings from the 1960s & 70s appears to have stalled, which is too bad, since the series was invaluable. For example, at one point they were scheduled to remaster Arthur Grumiaux's classic Philips recordings of Mozart's 6 String Quintets for the "Remastered Classics" series! (which would have been great to have in much improved sound), but then, it was inexplicably taken off the list of scheduled new releases. & they've not done a new remastering since. By the way, there's also a remastered Esoteric release of QI's SQs nos. 13 & 14, which is pricier, but likely offers improved sound, too (though I've not heard it).

As for Schubert's earlier SQs, I see it much in the same way as his symphonies (& lieder, & chamber music, & in Schubert's music general). It's worth having the earlier symphonies, especially the middle symphonies, such as no. 4, but his final symphonies--the "unfinished" 8th, & "Great" 9th are Schubert's masterpieces in the genre. & the same is true for the string quartets. Like Merl, I see the last three as his "stand out" masterpieces, but nos. 7, 8, 9, & 10 are worth having, too, as are no. 11 & especially the unfinished 12th "Quartettsatz":



.

For me, the most essential Schubert is most often "late" Schubert. Which means ANY work in the high D. 800s and D. 900s, Deutsch listing-wise, even the fragments & unfinished works. & that's where I think listeners should most focus their exploration of Schubert's music. Though sadly, it seems strange to be calling the music of a 29-31 year old "late".


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Merl,
> 
> I'm surprised the Orlando Quartet didn't even make it onto your lower end list. On re-listening, did you decide that it wasn't worthy? or did you discount the CD because it's not readily available? Did anyone else listen to the performance, & not like it? I'd be interested to know why? I ask because I thought I'd found a gem.
> .


Crap, I forgot to add it on! It wasn't on my paper list. I can't add it onto my thread list now as I can't edit it but I've added it to the blog version. Soz Joz. It's in the highly recommended section. And yes you did find a gem. Now we just need someone to find a nice cheap cd of it.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3433-schubert-string-quartet-13-a.html


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## Josquin13

......Phew!.....


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I suddenly remember that I have no. 13 with the Cleveland quartet and since I liked that ages ago I went and bought their Beethoven cycle. Now I listened a bit and thought they were slow and too romantic in the 1st mvt. Are they so bad they aren't worthy of a review?


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> ... As for Schubert's earlier SQs, I see it much in the same way as his symphonies (& lieder, & chamber music, in Schubert's music general). It's worth having the earlier symphonies, especially the middle symphonies, such as no. 4, but his final symphonies--the "unfinished" 8th, & "Great" 9th are Schubert's masterpieces in the genre & the same is true for the string quartets. Like Merl, I see the last three as his "stand out" masterpieces, but nos. 7, 8, 9, & 10 are worth having, too, as are no. 11 & especially the unfinished 12th "Quartettsatz".
> .....


I nearly chose the Quartettsatz last time out (it was on a shortlist of 10, haha). Yeah, totally agree here with you, Joz. It's hard to believe he was still a bit of a kid when he knocked out his early quartets and a mere 27 when he wrote the Rosamunde. Schubert was a composer hitting his stride when he died. I class him as a genius. His output was prodigious. I keep hoping they'll find some missing quartets some day as those late quartets are amongst the greatest pieces of chamber music ever written. Strangely enough I love Schubert's 5th and 6th symphonies more than the later ones and he was only 19 and 20 years old when he wrote them. Amazing.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Great rundown as always Merl. I've been up to my neck in preparation for Easter weekend so I haven't had a ton of time this week. That said I listened to my recording by Takacs and it is fantastic. This is a great quartet!


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## StevehamNY

Just saw a quote today from the pianist Artur Schnabel: 

“Mozart is a garden, Schubert is a forest in light and shade, but Beethoven is a mountain range.”

He was speaking of the sonatas, but perhaps the analogy applies more broadly? With a renewed appreciation of Schubert this week, I think "a forest in light and shade" describes the late quartets beautifully.


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## SearsPoncho

Those interested in early Schubert quartets might want to take a listen to #5 (I considered nominating it this week). The middle two movements are lost, but one can hear the musical seeds which would bloom in his later works, particularly String Quartet #12, #15 (1st mvmt.) and the "Unfinished" 8th Symphony. If you have time, give it a shot and I believe you'll see what I mean. 

I haven't listened to the Alban Berg Quartet in the Rosamunde yet. I thought it would be right in their sweet spot and they might be the ideal quartet for this music, but I don't believe I've seen the ABQ mentioned.

P.S. I'm pleased that the group seems to be enjoying this music. I've learned much from all the excellent posts and am now tempted to buy the Takacs, although I'm fully satisfied with the Quartetto Italiano's classic recording. By the way, the Q.I. also made some excellent Beethoven recordings, and their recording of Beethoven's Op. 132 is in my top 3 recordings of all time. 

P.P.S. Mal, hope you and your family and friends are in better health. Same goes for all of you. As for me, the really rough stuff begins next week.


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## Malx

SearsPoncho said:


> Those interested in early Schubert quartets might want to take a listen to #5 (I considered nominating it this week). The middle two movements are lost, but one can hear the musical seeds which would bloom in his later works, particularly String Quartet #12, #15 (1st mvmt.) and the "Unfinished" 8th Symphony. If you have time, give it a shot and I believe you'll see what I mean.
> 
> I haven't listened to the Alban Berg Quartet in the Rosamunde yet. I thought it would be right in their sweet spot and they might be the ideal quartet for this music, but I don't believe I've seen the ABQ mentioned.
> 
> P.S. I'm pleased that the group seems to be enjoying this music. I've learned much from all the excellent posts and am now tempted to buy the Takacs, although I'm fully satisfied with the Quartetto Italiano's classic recording. By the way, the Q.I. also made some excellent Beethoven recordings, and their recording of Beethoven's Op. 132 is in my top 3 recordings of all time.
> 
> P.P.S. Mal, hope you and your family and friends are in better health. Same goes for all of you. As for me, the really rough stuff begins next week.


Thanks for your thoughts SP - hope all goes well for you and yours.


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I suddenly remember that I have no. 13 with the Cleveland quartet and since I liked that ages ago I went and bought their Beethoven cycle. Now I listened a bit and thought they were slow and too romantic in the 1st mvt. Are they so bad they aren't worthy of a review?


I couldnt find their Schubert to listen to. Sorry.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Merl said:


> I couldnt find their Schubert to listen to. Sorry.


Instead of listening to my cd, I found the album on iTunes and heard parts of it. Tonight I put on Haydn with the Orlando quartet


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## Helgi

What a great quartet! I liked it before but much more so now after repeated listening.

Quartetto Italiano are my favourite so far. They just seem very well suited to this quartet, in temperament. They play with warmth and feeling without ever overdoing it, and I like the relaxed tempo.

Listened to Wihan and it sounded brilliant — but the tempo and/or phrasing made me feel uneasy at times, like they were about to tumble over themselves.

Listening to Takács right now, the Decca recording. I have their excellent Quintet & Quartettsatz on Hyperion.


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## Burbage

First, I'd like to thank SearsPoncho for selecting this quartet, and offer my best wishes to you all.

But as it's a Friday, good or otherwise, I've done this:

I think we know why Schubert wrote this, because he said so, writing that he intended to write a grand symphony, and would approach that goal by way of chamber music and, as others have pointed out, though this can sound like a cycle of wordless lieder, there's something symphonic about it, too.

It's more than just a preparatory exercise, though. Not that that's a bad thing - many composers seem to treat each piece as preparation for the next - but by dedicating it to the Schuppanzigh, Schubert clearly intended it to be publicly performed and published.

So I'm not so sure it's the intimate display of a tortured soul that some writers have suggested. February 1824 will doubtless have been cold and damp, because it usually is, and Schubert will doubtless have been unwell and lovelorn, because he usually was. And that sinuous, smoky introduction, as the second violin churns and the viola and cello shiver, does sound a bit grim. But in it lurks Gretchen and her Spinnrad, an allusion that pops up again in both the Andante and the eerily mournful minuet, both of which also borrow from other previous work, as the jolly march finale borrows from the minuet. I'll admit that my ears don't find it wholly convincing (nor the bolted-on reprise at the end of the first movement), but I'm sure that's just a matter of taste. 

Either way, I hear this more as ghost story than confession. By this time, Schubert had set fifteen songs with 'grave' in the title, and countless others with incidental tombs, but that, presumably, reflected what poets (or, at least, their publishers) found the market wanted. And the market seemed to clamour for wailing and gnashing of teeth, not upbeat verses about happy marriages and good customer service. Exactly why, as the patriarch sat by the fire of an evening, or the student by their grate, they reached for the laments of storm-flogged sailors rather than, say, the ballads of prosperous grocers, I don't know, but that's what sold, by the look of it, and it's what Schubert set. And, despite the occasional attempt at the lighthearted (D37 is jolly enough, in a cynical sort of way, and half his drinking songs don't directly mention death), he seems to have risen to the challenge.

So, though it's possible to see this quartet as expressing Schubert's innermost misery, it seems more likely simply to reflect the times. I guess it could be equally argued that this quartet is an essay in "absolute" or "formalist" music, and threads can be gathered around Schubert and his collaborators that point in that direction. E.T.A. Hoffmann (a judge as well as purveyor of Tales) had worked with Schubert ten years earlier on the Magic Harp (a flop), just as he was acquitting Helmina von Chezy, the author of "Rosamunde" (another flop) and librettist of Weber's "Euryanthe" (ditto) of libel. And Hoffmann was one of a group of writers who'd summarised the romantic movement as essentially about "infinite longing", and wrote of "pure music" as the peak of artistic achievement.

Those ideas doubtless had some effect on Schubert, as they were still annoying Wagner twenty years later, and I guess they affect how we view Schubert now. So it's been useful to spend a week listening to this quartet, trying to peel away the weighty layers of reputation and expectation and influence, and trying to hear it for exactly what it is. A deceptively transparent tale, told in four elegant, wistful, parts.

And now to matters of substance. The recording I've been listening to mostly is that of the Mosaiques, who make a proper fireside shocker of it. It's the closest I can find to the feel of a gripping performance I attended, decades ago, at the Wigmore Hall. I'm not very picky about performances, and usually happy to hear different ways of doing things but, with this quartet, I've regrettable views on how it should go.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

I've been quiet here for the past couple weeks because I generally prefer to just listen and enjoy and read others comments, as I don't have much particularly insightful to add, but I'll chime in here with some thoughts.

I listened just now to the the Guarneri Quartet's recording (I don't think I've seen it mentioned yet). I honestly don't get the melancholy vibe that others experience, because even though this is a wildly expressive piece, it seems to me to still be within the peramaters of classical era restraint. Even the broodiness of the 1st movement seemed to be perfectly counterbalanced by shades of light, and never did I feel the piece reached the pits of despair or anguish. If anything my impression aligns more with what Burbage expressed above, an exercise in 'absolute music'.

I was really impressed by the Andante and how much he was able to milk such a deceptively simple theme with so much harmonic variation! This was all around a really fun listen and I'll check out another performance (though I don't have quite the level of dedication Merl does!  )


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## Carmina Banana

I have had a hard time figuring out exactly what I am looking for in a recording of this quartet. It is easy to be heavy handed and destroy the piece. For instance, when the accents in the last movement are over done, it is too disruptive. I like the comments by Allegro Con Brio about the songlike nature of Schubert. This does seem like the number one thing. The melodies have to flow easily like they would from a great singer.
For a while, I was leaning toward the Hagen recording. It is hauntingly beautiful, reserved and definitely not heavy handed. The Melos ultimately seemed a little too in-my-face. The Emerson was good, but I will have to agree with others that it seemed more slick than heartfelt. Yesterday, however, something amazing happened:
I fell in love with the Quartetto Italiano.
The opening was so voluptuously dark and compelling. Like a warm blanket. I think the whole thing is very organic and intuitive and…human? It really spoke to me. In the last movement, some performers seem to be saying, “now we play really fast notes to show off our technique.” With them, it was just an inevitable development of the musical idea.


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## Merl

I agree with plenty of the insightful comments above. I don't see the Rosamunde as an incredibly dark piece. I hear a lot of nostalgia in this work and perhaps a yearning for someome or something far away. I know that's all purely suggestive on my part but it's how I like to hear it. However, during listening to multiple accounts, I didn't mind readings that made the quartet darker in nature. To my ears, the Mosaiques did this but their particular sound might be partly responsible for that along with a very broad pacing of the first movement. Although the Itallianos also took their time, theirs is a far more nostalgic vision and one which is rightly very popular among listeners here. One of the performances that captured that feeling of nostalgia in a slightly happier frame would be the Kodaly. Again there's nothing wrong with that slightly sunnier approach either as long as that kind of sound and flow is maintened and the Kodalys achieved this. What I was looking for, personally, was something in between that was just a little quicker and slightly more rugged (I hear a determination in this quartet) so that was why I went for the Takacs. Incidentally, Gucci, I did listen to both Guarneri accounts and agree that they play more along the lines of the Kodalys. I ruled their 2nd account out more because of the recording. The earlier one was 'comfortably' played, a little bland and quite distant. The most recent one was in fact a fine account that I would heartily recommend except for some very annoying scraping noises on the recording (not from the instruments), that were very noticeable at high volumes on my ear buds, that totally ruin an otherwise very decent performance for me. I didn't hear the noises in all movements but the damage had been done. Incidentally I also listened to their DATM on the same disc and that is spoiled by some weird sonics in the first movement (sounds like someone trying to put a shelf up, lol). It's not a well engineered disc. The reason I chose the Janacek is not for the same reasons as the Takacs. They play it with a unique character that I couldn't quite put my finger on but was very pleasing to this particular set of old ears. Simple as that.


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## Carmina Banana

I just listened to the Kodaly and I like it a lot. It is straight forward, rustic, free from anything too fancy or precious and I think that approach works with Schubert.
I think all of the talk of Schubert as a song composer (I was getting the same Gretchen vibe from the beginning of this quartet as Burbage), but I have always had this feeling that when Schubert put on his chamber music and symphony hat, it takes him extra long to “work things out.” His late work in particular often seems long and arduous, yet it always seems necessary. Part of me thinks, do we really need to hear that tune again? Or, isn’t it time for the recap? But the wiser part of me knows that if I just relax and listen to everything play out, it will always be worth it.
It seems like Schubert, writing in such proximity to Beethoven, should be similar in his musical struggles, but to me, they are fundamentally different. Schubert has conflicting ideas but they don’t often have clear identities. It isn’t sunshine versus tragedy, but sunshine, tinged with melancholy and Tragedy imbued with rays of hope. Maybe this is why it takes long for his ideas to play out. 
I don’t know if this really explains how I feel about Schubert. Just thinking out loud.


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## Josquin13

Carmina banana writes, "but I have always had this feeling that when Schubert put on his chamber music and symphony hat, it takes him extra long to “work things out.” His late work in particular often seems long and arduous, yet it always seems necessary."

It may seem that way, but Schubert composed at a rapid pace during his later period. One masterwork after another poured out of him, so much so that he didn't even recognize some of his own compositions later on. Which isn't surprising, considering how hugely prolific he was towards the end of his life. In 1827-28 alone, he composed numerous masterpieces--every thing in the D.900s, including his "Winterreise" & "Schwanengesang" song cycles, the String Quintet in C major, the Mass in E flat major, D. 950, the "Great" Symphony no. 9, his final three piano sonatas, D. 958, D. 959, D. 960, the Fantasy in F minor for four hands, D. 940, his Fantasy in C major for violin and piano, the Four Impromptus (for solo piano), Op. 935, the Piano Trio no. 2, D. 929, etc., etc. It bogles the mind. Maybe only Mozart can rival him in respect to this incredible flourish of productivity. So, if anything, the weaknesses that may exist in Schubert's late compositions are more likely due to his not taking the time "to work things out".


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have very few meaningful thoughts to add to wrap up this week, so I’ll just say that the Artemis recording has some truly exquisite phrasing from some players who clearly love the music very much. Highly recommended if you’re looking for another distinguished performance! Looking forward now to Henry’s pick


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## HenryPenfold

My pick is ......

*Dmitri Shostakovich* - String Quartet number 2 in A Major Op.68 September 1944

Although just the second of 15 in the genre for DSCH, he was halfway through his life and had already written the mighty 7th and 8th symphonies, and amongst other works, 2 piano quintets, the opera 'Lady Macbeth Of The Mtsensk District', 1st piano concerto, 24 Preludes and 6 film scores. It is the work of a well established composer.

1944 saw the premieres of Bartok's _Concerto For Orchestra_ and Michael Tippett's _A Child Of Our Time,_ and Bing Crosby's _Swinging On A Star _was the biggest pop-song on the planet. 

Bartok had already completed all 6 of his string quartets some 5 years previously.

The second is easily my most listened to DSCH quartet. It is not simple for me to choose a favourite recording. At the moment it would possibly be a toss-up between the Fitzwilliam and the Shostakovich Quartets.

Looking through my CDs, I have:

Borodin X3, Emerson, Pacifica, Brodsky, Beethoven, Moyzes, Danel, Shostakovich, Eder, Mandelring, Fitzwilliam, Zapolski, Rubio and Carducci.

I look forward to reappraising my thoughts on this masterpiece in the light of a week's focused listening and commentary from esteemed forum members.

Here's the excellent Jerusalem Quartet performing live ...


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## Josquin13

Good choice, Henry. This isn't a quartet that I know well, so I'm looking forward to giving it a spin. I'll have to dig out the Meandering Quartet's recording from my closet. (I hear they're nearly as good in Shostakovich as the Mandelring Quartet.)


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## HenryPenfold

Josquin13 said:


> Good choice, Henry. This isn't a quartet that I know well, so I'm looking forward to giving it a spin. I'll have to dig out the Meandering Quartet's recording from my closet. (I hear they're nearly as good in Shostakovich as the Mandelring Quartet.)


:lol:

Before your post landed, I'd spotted the smellcheque issue and amended it!


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> Looking through my CDs, I have:
> 
> Borodin X3, Emerson, Pacifica, Brodsky, Beethoven, Moyzes, Danel, Shostakovich, Eder, Mandelring, Fitzwilliam, Zapolski, and Carducci.


I know Merl will sit down with his legal pad and list the candidates (a quick check on Presto shows 40 recordings), but this quartet is interestingly the only one of DSCH's that the Takacs ever recorded. (It's paired with the piano quintet they did with Hamelin, but because it's on Hyperion you won't find it on any streaming service.)

Very much looking forward to this week! Thanks, Henry!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I know Merl will sit down with his legal pad and list the candidates (a quick check on Presto shows 40 recordings), but this quartet is interestingly the only one of DSCH's that the Takacs ever recorded. (It's paired with the piano quintet they did with Hamelin, but because it's on Hyperion you won't find !


Lol @ 'legal pad'. It's not very legal I'm afraid but I'll go thru the recordings tomorrow as it's silly o'clock here. 40! Well at least that's better than 70. Not one of my fave Shosty SQs so this gives me a chance to listen to it better. I actually have the Takacs (plus Rubio, Pacifica, Mandelring and some others) so looking forward to hearing them again.

Below.... 'The Pad' (it's not very exciting)


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Not one of my fave Shosty SQs so this gives me a chance to listen to it better.


Quite soon in, you'll be unable to go five minutes without the massive first subject tune leaping in yer bonce! It'll be your most irritating ear-worm of the year!


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## HenryPenfold

I've kicked off with the Zapolski who take an eye-watering 41 minutes over the task!

I think they may well get away with this measured approach, just.

The second movement, Recitative & Romance, really works well for me despite it being just shy of 12 minutes (average is about ten and a half, with the Emersons taking nine!). The beautiful pathos and Jewish influence is enhanced and one can so much more easily follow the lines and the spotlight on the first violin in this movement (Zapolski certainly indulges himself a bit here, but it's gorgeous!).

But it breaks down in my opinion in the third movement, Waltz (Attaca). It doesn't work this slow. And given the previous tempi, they should at least for the sake of contrast pick up the pace a bit.

Happily, they pick it up in the final movement, theme and variations. I'm happy to return to this performance, but I'm yet to make my mind up, as to the _legitimacy_ of the approach.

Excellent sound quality.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Haven't heard this one and have no doubts that it will please me immensely considering I have never been disappointed by any Shosty SQ. Adding a link to this website is mandatory whenever we do a Shosty quartet, so here it is: http://quartets.de/compositions/ssq02.html


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## Portamento

Just heard this one for the first time. A very solid string quartet - probably not as good as the Eighth/Fifteenth, but that's an impossibly high bar. My only real reservation on first listen is that it's a bit too long. But the overture's first theme - those shimmering accents by 3/4 strings! - and the last movement's closing minutes are some of the many amazing moments. 

I'm hearing the Takács version, and overall I'm very satisfied by their performance (could be more devilish in the waltz though). I like evaluating the composition itself more than individual performances, so that's what I'll be focusing on this week.


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## HenryPenfold

I'm surprised that Barshai did not arrange the second quartet for chamber symphony forces, it seems tailor made. 

A huge sonata form first movement with a full-blooded first subject replete with klezmer accents, followed by a heart-tugging slow movement with a gorgeous violin solo; leading onto a dance-fest third movement and an orthodox theme and variations finale, all coming in at around 35 minutes.


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## Merl

Here's the ones I've found.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Such a funny coincidence: Yesterday I walked past a second hand music store where the owner had all his CDs and LPs put outside because shopping indoors is still complicated in Berlin. Amongst other things, I saw the Brodsky single release of the Shostakovich nos 2 and 5. I asked myself briefly: Do you really need another Shostakovich quartet CD after you just bought the wonderful Pacifica set? Then I decided to buy it anyway just to get the guy a bit more business. And now, I am thrilled to listen to it sooner than expected with this weeks' pick!


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## starthrower

I stumbled on a nice used set by the Fitzwilliam Quartet a few years ago which I've barely tapped in to so far. I wouldn't have thought to focus on no.2, so thanks, Henry!


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## Merl

............ ... ..... Oops!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I decided to start with the Fitzwilliams! Then maybe Pacifica and Emersons. Shostakovich string quartets are some of my all time favorite music! I probably listened mostly to the Emersons earlier, since they have been my favorite quartet from hearing their Bartok in the 90s. Now I've become aware of many great ensembles, but often want to hear the newest thing.


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## Merl

Listened to the 3 recordings I have to hand (*Rubio*, *Pacifica*, *Pavel Haas)* this morning and last night. All high quality performances. The reason I've never rated this as one of my fave Shosty quartets is I've often found it overlong. Playing through it I still think it would operate better at under the half hour mark (personally I'd shave a good 4 minutes off the 2nd movement and a couple off the final movement but I'll probably get hauled over the coals for that comment). Listening again hasn't altered my opinion. We'll see with repeated efforts this week if that opinion persists.
PS. I foolishly missed the Brodskys (live), Sibelius Academy and Debussy quartets off my list. 
PPS. I've just listened to the *Manhattans* and it's one I won't be returning to. Not one of the stronger performances from that set, for me. I can also throw out the *Rasumowskys* as I'm not a lover of that set at all (and a quick skip play on Spotify reaffirmed that opinion)


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## sbmonty

Really enjoyed getting to know Schubert's No. 13 a little better. Great comments as usual. Now Shostakovich! One of my favourite cycles. I am starting with the Takács recording. I also own the Mandelring, Fitzwilliam and Pacifica cycles. Nice choice!!


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just listened to the Brodsky recording by Teldec, and it is glorious! First of all, fabulously recorded, but what beautiful playing. 

The first movement was just like this spring morning: Crisp, bright and a bit on the cool side - invigorating. The second movement I found breathtakingly beautiful: The violin's solo above the meditative slow chords of the other players is just wonderful, and the three minutes of dissonance about half way into the movement I find a welcome change, waking the listener from the reverie of the violin romance, and the Brodskys also play this part so beautifully that one is almost disappointed when the sonorous first motif comes back. The valse starts off in a very restrained manner, with muffled sound, but it turns into a whirlwind, played with incredible gusto. And the last movement could be a whole string quartet to itself, with its incredible richness of material and many different moods. The Brodsky play the Allegro parts in an incredibly exciting, frenzied way.

I am sure there are other great recordings, but I can hardly imagine enjoying this masterpiece more than by listening to this CD, purchased yesterday in a second hand store just before closing hour.


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## StevehamNY

Merl, thanks for showing us the famous list! (You're right, it's not a legal pad. In America, we'd call that a steno pad. At least, those of us old enough to remember stenography.)

That "40" I cited from Presto was inflated by some repetitions and a few adaptations by larger ensembles and whatnot. So I think you're on top of the current recordings. Although I did find these other two:









I've heard the Moscows play the Gretchaninov quartets, but not the DSCH-2. They seem to be available on some of the streaming services, but not in my region.









Don't know this group at all (but I can't help but love the cover). Again, available here and there, but not in my region.

There were a couple more, but they were clearly minor-league, so I'll spare you!

And thanks again, because I'm really looking forward to your picks this week!


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## HenryPenfold

I think that thejewk wrote the best summary of Shostakovich's string quartet #2 that I have ever come across. With his blessing I'm copying and pasting it here.

It really is a most excellent listening resource that I hope everyone will benefit from. It's post #3 from the thread "Shostakovich's String Quartets, a listening log". Many thanks, thejewk :cheers:

______________________________________________________________________________

"The Second Quartet, written 6 years and 3 symphonies after the first, is a very different beast compared to the first. Firstly, it is considerably longer, with a run time of around 33-35 minutes, and it is almost symphonic in scope.

The first movement, described as an Overture, Moderato con moto, is a rather complex sonata form, the first theme being bright but forceful, and the second much more sinister and densely written. Whereas the first quartet relied mostly on supportive ensemble playing, to my ears this first movement of the second has much more contrapuntal interest. Around half way through, we reach a lovely and delicate pizzicato section, followed by some exploratory variations that wrench about and stretch the themes beautifully. There's also plenty of 'oom-pah' feeling in the accompaniment, continuing the folky theme of the first quartet. In my opinion, this movement is a real tour de force.

The second movement, marked a Recitative and Romance, Adagio, opens with a real gut wrenching violin recitation with a drone held in the lower registers which breaks only at about 1.30 with the violin's last few weeping notes. Silence, then a more consonant drone supports a more hopeful mood, which explores, and then is reset again. It's very introspective and sparse, a definite contrast. Finally at around the 4 minute mark, the cello moves from the drone to provide a melancholy backdrop for a beautiful elegiac lament. This movement is, for me, a clear indication of what Shostakovich would turn to in the later quartets, with incredibly sparse textures, although here still very lyrical and less abstract. For the close of the movement, around 3 minutes, the drones encroach back in for a recapitulation of the opening themes, complete with brief silences and small dramatic gestures. It goes off, softly.

The third movement, a relatively brief and macabre waltz, foreshadows a lot of similar movements in quartets to come. Enchanting, sinister and, again, folkish in phrasing. There is a wonderful passage about mid way through in which the cello plays rapid and busy runs which propel everything into a frenzied dance, before the opening theme is then picked up from the cello and passed around.

The final movement, a Theme and variations, takes a lovely singsong melody and passes it through a kaleidoscope of moods. In my view, this last movement begins a pattern used by Shostakovich often in the future, where the focus is to tie together thematically all of the previous ideas and moods of the first three movements. We move through the excited polyphony of the first movement, the lamenting style of the second, into the demented dance of the third, switching effortlessly. Finally we switch into the recitation mood of the second movement, but more romantic and poignant, with a very minor key tonality.

I'm less experienced with Shostakovich's symphonies, but for my tastes, this beats any of his symphonies written up to this point. It's a real journey.

With regards to the recordings, I don't find much to choose between them, but think the Shostakovich Quartet just edge out the competition. Lots of fire and expressivity when needed, not too languorous, and the excellent sound makes it more enjoyable to track the individual voices compared to the limited sonic palate of the Borodins. The Fitzwilliams are also excellent, and the Borodins too, so it's a roll of the dice in truth."


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## Merl

Listening to the *Fitwilliams* (a set i really like) im not as impressed by their 2nd as their excellent 8th, comparing it to the *Pacifica* account the Pacificas play this one with greater passion and interpretive freedom. The Fitzwiliams are still fine here but that first movement needs to be a little more smiling in its execution and the Pacificas definitely do that.

Edit: just listened to a cracker of a performance from a Russian quartet. A definite favourite up to now.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Shosty's quartets are, for me, one of those bodies of work - which also includes in my mind Bach's cantatas, Brahms's chamber music, Bartok and Beethoven's quartets, and Bruckner's symphonies among others - that I consider to be so consistently creative, fertile, and lofty in inspiration that they truly are inexhaustible; I don't see how it's possible to get tired of them. I have not yet heard them all, but this week's choice has inspired me to embark on a journey through the 15. I find it interesting that Shosty had already written his 8th symphony by the time he wrote his 2nd quartet; he clearly favored the greater intimacy and introspection provided by chamber music as he grew more advanced in years. This music may not be as deeply touched by the profound angst of those later works but is still so rich and involving. Yes, his music always carries a certain air of desperation and causticity even in his most lighthearted moments, but he finds room for lots of emotions - it's not all the stereotypical "Soviet oppression nihilism." This work uses a capacious symphonic scale and idiom but retains all the unique advantages of the quartet format. Unlike some I didn't find it to be too long; instead it seemed like a perfectly well-rounded narrative. The finale's variations are simply ingenious, such a complex blend of compositional techniques and expressive possibilities, and the minor-key ending puts a surprising and deeply ambiguous seal on it. And the slow movement is just sublime, with a late-Beethoven air of reaching for the stars that also rather reminds me of the last movement of a more modern quartet we did almost a year ago - Schnittke's 2nd. If not for the presence of 13 other outstanding quartets that followed it, I have no doubt this would be ranked among the most original and extraordinary string quartets of the 20th century.

I chose the Brodsky for my first listen and found it to be an exciting account with great tone and technical security. Though I haven't heard any others, I get the impression that the interpretation is a bit on the cool side but I don't think that's _totally_ out of keeping in Shosty's music as long as warmth and lyricism are appropriately retained. I have traditionally preferred the Fitzwilliams for these works but my experience with recordings is very limited outside of them and the Borodins.


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## Merl

I'm probably in the minority that prefer Shosty's SQs over his symphonies but I find them less stiff, weighty and freer with expression. A case in point is this SQ which takes us thru the full range of emotions in just over half an hour. HP, you're right, that opening movement does get stuck in your head (I was humming it this morning as I woke up). The 3rd movement is the one I still find most beguiling. It's a very intriguing movement that has a delicate and almost ghostly feel to it that I've always thought of as a 'macabre waltz', as if it had been composed for the Burns poem, Tam O' Shanter.

When I got up I already had the *Rasumovsky* account set up on Spotify so I returned to the 2nd half of it and found their last two movements really well done and wholly convincing, much more so than the opening 2 movements that I listened to yesterday. Of the two complete performances I played last night and this morning the one one I preferred was the *Taneyev quartet* who have a strong unified vision. The *Sorrel* quartet were sadly a little more disjointed especially in a disappointing 3rd movement, where they lose the rhythm in that ghostly waltz. The Taneyevs never let it go. The Sorrels are also a little mannered in the first movement, offering some sharp accents that, for me, don't quite sound right but it's still a fairly decent performance but I doubt I'll revisit it for this round-up. I'll definitely revisit this Taneyev recording again, though.

Interestingly I've just sampled the *Emersons* in the 1st and 3rd movements and whilst they play the opening movement much more darkly than the *Rubio* quartet they are slightly more light-hearted in the waltz. Technically their playing is immaculate but I don't think they are helped by the acoustics of this recording which places them further back in the soundstage. The Rubios are way more upfront in the mix, which certainly captures those sprung rhythms and pizzicato in the waltz better. Both ensembles play with conviction and skill here though. The *Sibelius Academy*'s first violin is too shrill in the opening measures to even have me considering their account as competitive. Ugh! The *Beethoven Quartet*' s recordings (1956-1974) sound promising and they worked closely with the composer but the sound of the early quartets is harsh. The transfers were allegedly made from disc and they're not good in the early SQs. Lots of background noise and a lack of mid-range and bass make these a tough listen. I waded through their 2nd but it wasn't a pleasant listen even if there are interesting little touches I liked. Speeds are quick and I like their direct approach but with so many recordings as well, or better, played and in at least very good sound this isn't going to be one I can recommend.


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## Merl

HP, would I be correct in saying that the Borodins have recorded this quartet 4 times?

1960s (now on Chandos)
1980s (Melodiya)
1990 (a part set on Virgin)
2014-18 (latest set on Decca)


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl, I would also say that I prefer the quartets to the symphonies but not by a huge margin. I can’t stand the 2nd, 3rd, 11th, and 12th symphonies (propaganda drivel) but love all the rest with the possible exceptions of the 7th and 9th which I find just OK. But the quartet format is naturally more suited to personal, truly authentic utterances and I admit that the symphonies can be overlong and bombastic at times. I keep thinking the first movement of this quartet really belongs in a symphony since the textures are so complex, but I like how he works it out. It’s still a very long journey from the spare, stark, haunting utterances of the last few quartets.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> HP, would I be correct in saying that the Borodins have recorded this quartet 4 times?
> 
> 1960s (now on Chandos)
> 1980s (Melodiya)
> 1990 (a part set on Virgin)
> 2014-18 (latest set on Decca)


I only know the ones I have in my collection - Chandos, Virgin and Melodiya. I don't know anything about the Decca.

*Edit*: The Melodiya set includes the piano quintet and it was all recorded in Moscow between 1978 and 1983. Can this be one and the same with the Decca?

*Update*: Seems not. The Decca set, according to _Music International_, was recorded between 2014-2018 (as you said). Seems you are correct, 4 recordings.


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> I only know the ones I have in my collection - Chandos, Virgin and Melodiya. I don't know anything about the Decca.
> 
> *Edit*: The Melodiya set includes the piano quintet and it was all recorded in Moscow between 1978 and 1983. Can this be one and the same with the Decca?
> 
> *Update*: Seems not. The Decca set, according to _Music International_, was recorded between 2014-2018 (as you said). Seems you are correct, 4 recordings.


Believe it or not, the Borodins also played this piece at my wedding!









Edit: Thirty years later, I'm finally starting to wonder about this. They SAID they were the world-famous Borodin Quartet, and that Shostakovich's original score for the 2nd quartet featured two trumpets... Did we get taken for 800 bucks here?


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Shosty's quartets are, for me, one of those bodies of work - which also includes in my mind Bach's cantatas, Brahms's chamber music, Bartok and Beethoven's quartets, and Bruckner's symphonies among others - that I consider to be so consistently creative, fertile, and lofty in inspiration that they truly are inexhaustible; I don't see how it's possible to get tired of them. I have not yet heard them all, but this week's choice has inspired me to embark on a journey through the 15. I find it interesting that Shosty had already written his 8th symphony by the time he wrote his 2nd quartet; he clearly favored the greater intimacy and introspection provided by chamber music as he grew more advanced in years. This music may not be as deeply touched by the profound angst of those later works but is still so rich and involving. Yes, his music always carries a certain air of desperation and causticity even in his most lighthearted moments, but he finds room for lots of emotions - it's not all the stereotypical "Soviet oppression nihilism." This work uses a capacious symphonic scale and idiom but retains all the unique advantages of the quartet format. Unlike some I didn't find it to be too long; instead it seemed like a perfectly well-rounded narrative. The finale's variations are simply ingenious, such a complex blend of compositional techniques and expressive possibilities, and the minor-key ending puts a surprising and deeply ambiguous seal on it. And the slow movement is just sublime, with a late-Beethoven air of reaching for the stars that also rather reminds me of the last movement of a more modern quartet we did almost a year ago - Schnittke's 2nd. If not for the presence of 13 other outstanding quartets that followed it, I have no doubt this would be ranked among the most original and extraordinary string quartets of the 20th century.
> 
> I chose the Brodsky for my first listen and found it to be an exciting account with great tone and technical security. Though I haven't heard any others, I get the impression that the interpretation is a bit on the cool side but I don't think that's _totally_ out of keeping in Shosty's music as long as warmth and lyricism are appropriately retained. I have traditionally preferred the Fitzwilliams for these works but my experience with recordings is very limited outside of them and the Borodins.


Allegro Con Brio, you make a number of extremely interesting observations.

I would say that your implication that a jewel such as the second quartet is often lost within 14 other exceptional works is very apposite. I had cause to focus on it some years ago and If I hadn't, my _take_ on DSCH's 15 would have centred on the usual suspects and the second would have remained just a number. I think the process is enlightening.

And as you quite rightly say, if there had been no further expressions in the genre, the second would have been hailed as singular masterpiece (all conjecture, of course!). We must remind ourselves of the dangers of being spoilt for choice.

And yes, DSCH's string quartets do, I think, form a major corpus of compositions that serve as a _waypoint_ in the continuing development of classical music.

You do well to draw attention the minor key ending, and I love your dichotomous _ambiguous/seal _description!


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> Believe it or not, the Borodins also played this piece at my wedding!
> 
> View attachment 153597
> 
> 
> Edit: Thirty years later, I'm finally starting to wonder about this. They SAID they were the world-famous Borodin Quartet, and that Shostakovich's original score for the 2nd quartet featured two trumpets... Did we get taken for 800 bucks here?


Cultural appropriation, both ways - no robbery in a fair exchange. Even @ $800 :lol:


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## HenryPenfold

Currently playing. Will post my thoughts in due course ......


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Currently playing. Will post my thoughts in due course ......


Ive just listened to that and I'm halfway thru my Takacs recording. Will be interesting to hear what you think of the Carducci. They are supposed to be considering a full cycle.


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## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> Currently playing. Will post my thoughts in due course ......


I'm not hip enough to know what they were going for on that cover, but it certainly stands out among all the other polite, demure string quartet cover photos:lol:


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm not hip enough to know what they were going for on that cover, but it certainly stands out among all the other polite, demure string quartet cover photos:lol:


Could be the Chernobyl remix they recorded.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Ive just listened to that and I'm halfway thru my Takacs recording. Will be interesting to hear what you think of the Carducci. They are supposed to be considering a full cycle.


I've listened through twice. I'm not entirely sure what I think (I don't mean that negatively). They don't hang about in any of the movements and there is a certain _democracy_ in the presentation, very much an ensemble effort. It's fairly free of the sometimes obligatory pathos, and the Klezmer elements are almost denied through spartan use of any vibrato or tremolo (relatively speaking). Whilst something is possibly lost in this way, there is also a wonderfully strong and clear presentation of the music itself, free of any potentially overly emotional connotations.

I don't know how much of it is due to the performance, or down to the recording, but it is a very powerful performance with plenty of instrumental attack and when the first violin is leading, it's clear that the rest of the ensemble is very busily working the music rather than acquiescing to an almost separate secondary less important role. Even the 'droning' (great description by thejewk) in the first moment while the 1st violin does its thing, has a presence of its own.

In my opinion, the third movement does not have the _lilt_ and accents that imbues the required character and is possibly the performance's weakest moment.

Perhaps because the forth movement is written more straight forwardly as an orthodox theme and variations, with a pulling together and summing up of main themes, that I find myself really responding to the Carducci in this movement. They really drive the music home, even though the very ending is reliatively undemonstrative.

I don't remember what I thought when I first bought and listened to this CD, but the foregoing is my first thoughts part 2!

I shall definitely be returning to this recording, and no doubt I shall adjust my thoughts.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I've listened through twice. I'm not entirely sure what I think (I don't mean that negatively). They don't hang about in any of the movements and there is a certain _democracy_ in the presentation, very much an ensemble effort. It's fairly free of the sometimes obligatory pathos, and the Klezmer elements are almost denied through spartan use of any vibrato or tremolo. Whilst something is possibly lost in this way, there is also a wonderfully strong and clear presentation of the music itself, free of any potentially overly emotional connotations.
> 
> I don't know how much of it is due to the performance, or down to the recording, but it is a very powerful performance with plenty of instrumental attack and when the first violin is leading, it's clear that the rest of the ensemble is very busily working the music rather than acquiescence to an almost separate secondary less important role. Even the 'droning' (great description by thejewk) in the first moment while the 1st violin does its thing, has a presence of its own.
> 
> In my opinion, the third movement does not have the _lilt_ and accents that imbues the required character and is possibly the performance's weakest moment.
> 
> Perhaps because the forth movement is written more straight forwardly as an orthodox theme and variations, with a pulling together and summing up of main themes, that I find myself really responding to the Carducci in this movement. They really drive the music home, even though the very ending is reliatively undemonstrative.
> 
> I don't remember what I thought when I first bought and listened to this CD, but the foregoing is my first thoughts part 2!
> 
> I shall definitely be returning to this recording, and no doubt I shall adjust my thoughts.


I'll just say, for now, that I like it.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'll just say, for now, that I like it.


Oh, I never said I didn't _like_ it! 

Most of what I said was descriptive, subjective and unjudgemental. I'm currently listening to the Tokash (apparent proper pronunciation) recording, I don't know if you know it, but it is rather good ....

P.S. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the Carducci considered _recording_ all the quartets, more that they were going to _perform_ them all on tour.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Oh, I never said I didn't _like_ it!
> 
> Most of what I said was descriptive, subjective and unjudgemental. I'm currently listening to the Tokash (apparent proper pronunciation) recording, I don't know if you know it, but it is rather good ....
> 
> P.S. I could be wrong, but I'm not sure the Carducci considered _recording_ all the quartets, more that they were going to _perform_ them all on tour.


Nps, HP, I read it the way you meant it. That was a perfect description of it btw.

Edit: I've just listened to the *Alexander* quartet and the *Moyzes*' budget account. The Alexanders are, as expected, very good here and play with solid unity and get a nice recorded sound, pacing this perfectly. The Moyzes are surprisingly decent too for such a budget account. Yeah, they're nowhere near the quality of the Alexanders and there's some odd moments where ensemble and intonation aren't as tight as you'd wish but they play with an honesty that is endearing. Nice cello sound too.


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## SearsPoncho

Great choice, HP. Shostakovich is one of my favorite composers and comfortably occupies a space in my Top 10. 

As for Symphonies v. Quartets: I value them equally, although I might give a slight nod to the symphonies. The symphonies were my entry into Shostakovich's music. I purchased recordings of nearly all the symphonies and attended several concerts featuring them before I ever heard any of his quartets. 

I've always liked the 2nd Quartet. It's one of the quartets I've returned to over the years. My favorite part is the Finale - what a great set of variations! The Borodin Quartet is the recording I roll with. I would also be interested in hearing the Beethoven Quartet, the Fitzwilliam Quartet, and The Pacifica, among others.


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## Merl

Just relistened to my *Takacs* recording in the car and I still can't help thinking that the Takacs beautify this quartet too much. That works fine in the first half of the quartet, which is played immaculately and beautifully, but I find it insufficient to engage me in the 3rd (especially) and 4th movements where I want a more rustic approach. Just goes to show that not everything the Takacs touch turns to gold. I've only a couple to listen to now before I wrap up. Good old school holidays


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Just relistened to my *Takacs* recording in the car and I still can't help thinking that the Takacs beautify this quartet too much. That works fine in the first half of the quartet, which is played immaculately and beautifully, but I find it insufficient to engage me in the 3rd (especially) and 4th movements where I want a more rustic approach. Just goes to show that not everything the Takacs touch turns to gold. I've only a couple to listen to now before I wrap up. Good old school holidays


Merl, without having the language to explain why, I find that I'm not drawn back to the Takacs account as much as I thought I might be. (In a week in which I've been listening to half a dozen recordings, and surprising myself with the one that keeps grabbing me!) The DSCH quartets are not a staple for the Takacs, so I'm just wondering if the groups who live in that sound world on a regular basis don't have a natural advantage in getting it right, even if they don't have quite the raw talent that the Takacs do?

I've already recommended the Julian Barnes novel about DSCH, "The Noise of Time," but speaking of the Takacs I also have to highly recommend "Beethoven for a Later Age: Living with the String Quartets," written by Edward Dusinberre in 2016. Dusinberre was just taking over as the first violinist when he wrote this (first violin for the Takacs, no pressure there), and it's a dual account of his experiences playing with one of the best quartets in the world and also what Beethoven was experiencing in his own life when he wrote the late quartets. It's a great inside look at what it takes to play at the highest level, how much you have to understand everything about the music (which only reinforces my first point above), and how the best quartets continuously work and experiment and argue with each other to do it even better. I can't imagine anyone on this forum not eating this book up!

And thanks again to everyone, because this particular quartet has been a great distraction this week!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, without having the language to explain why, I find that I'm not drawn back to the Takacs account as much as I thought I might be. (In a week in which I've been listening to half a dozen recordings, and surprising myself with the one that keeps grabbing me!) The DSCH quartets are not a staple for the Takacs, so I'm just wondering if the groups who live in that sound world on a regular basis don't have a natural advantage in getting it right, even if they don't have quite the raw talent that the Takacs do?!


I think you're bang-on there, Steve. They may play all the right notes, beautifully and perfectly, but they don't catch that special 'Shosty' feeling that the Borodins (for example) do.


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## Carmina Banana

I have always enjoyed Shostakovich (even though it is often not the sunniest music. Or, if it is, you have to question whether he really meant it). I remember reading Testimony as a teenager and being very impressed by it. I remember there was some kind of controversy about how much of the book was true and what Shostakovich really believed politically. I think the truth is that he was in one of the most difficult situations imaginable for an artist. 
The fact that Stalin could pass judgement on this artist was horrible, but I guess it would be naive to say that such things only happen rarely. 

After sampling a few recordings, I sat back and gave the Pacific a complete listen. I think they do a great job. I think pacing is key. As with a lot of Shostakovich’s works, I think there are times when the performer needs to be stoical and times when the raw emotion needs to spill out. The last movement in the hands of this group is very powerful because they do hold back a bit. It is kind of like seeing your father, who never cries, let a tear roll down his cheek.

I’m currently listening to the Carducci (because who can resist that cover?). I don’t know about this. The first movement is very sassy. Almost sing-songy? Of course, one has to always be open to irony with this composer. Maybe they are saying, “look how flippant we are being. Or are we?” Maybe their apparent dance-like approach is hiding the real angst. I’m very interested to hear the rest of this recording.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just listened to the excellent Pacifica recording. My only comparison so far is to the Brodsky. I could not say which one I prefer, except for the Valse, where the Brodskys play the middle section with such unbelievable angst-ridden urgency, the Pacifica almost seem pale in comparison. The absolutely wonderful adagio is a real romance when played by the Brodskys, the Pacifica interpret the piece more as a proto-religious lament; both approaches are valid. The final movement is a marvel. I absolutely love how, at minute 7, he turns the theme into something straigt from Dvorak (cello and viola, with an elfish little dance by the violin on top). It is unvelievable how much variety Shostakovich gets out of a fairly simple motif here, in this case I find he is at par with Beethoven.

Besides, I am once again just awed by the abundance of top-rate string ensembles out there in our time - and many thanks to HP for choosing this gem of a quartet for this week!


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## HenryPenfold

Interesting how we have lots of different perspectives. I enjoyed enough of the Carducci to want to return, but I think I know that theirs is not going to be top-tier. I quite liked the Takacs, but need to listen more. Strangely, the Pacifica didn't have me raving. Maybe because over the last couple of days I've over done it a bit and need to spread the listens out a bit. Not sure where to go next. Maybe some of the 'traditional' choices, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Fitzwilliam, Borodin et al.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I’m not planning on taking in too many more recordings this week because it is such a long work that demands a lot of time to really engage with, but I did hear two interesting ones - the Borodins' 1991 on Virgin/Erato and the Pacifica. Perhaps surprisingly considering I had previously expressed the opinion that I found the Pacifica a bit sterile, I ended up preferring them! The later Borodin ensemble still has some of that special feel for songful phrasing and that wistful Russian passion as the famous earlier recordings, but the performance doesn’t have as much “oomph” and impetus as I’d like. The Pacifica are, indeed, more generalized but they are fully immersed within the idiom and they really bring out the “spooky, satirical” nature of the music - the first movement is just merciless in rhythmic drive and clarity - militaristic, while the second movement is like the pale Russian winter sun - a raw, icy beauty. The waltz is almost scary with the remarkably nuanced hushed playing and gritty tone that the Pacificas give it, really ghostly, while the finale just grabs you and doesn’t let go. Certainly not the “heart on sleeve” approach I would prefer for a desert island recording but in this particular matchup I found that they beat out the Borodins’ more “saccharine” playing.

Also, it bothers me that the Borodins’ 1967 cycle of 1-13 - which I hear contains their best recordings by common consensus - is unavailable on any of the four streaming services that I’ve downloaded. It’s on Chandos, which is a label carried by everyone. Most of the time streaming is a blessing, but sometimes it makes me wonder if I’m missing something by not owning a single CD.


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm not planning on taking in too many more recordings this week because it is such a long work that demands a lot of time to really engage with, but I did hear two interesting ones - the Borodins' 1991 on Virgin/Erato and the Pacifica. Perhaps surprisingly considering I had previously expressed the opinion that I found the Pacifica a bit sterile, I ended up preferring them! The later Borodin ensemble still has some of that special feel for songful phrasing and that wistful Russian passion as the famous earlier recordings, but the performance doesn't have as much "oomph" and impetus as I'd like. The Pacifica are, indeed, more generalized but they are fully immersed within the idiom and they really bring out the "spooky, satirical" nature of the music - the first movement is just merciless in rhythmic drive and clarity - militaristic, while the second movement is like the pale Russian winter sun - a raw, icy beauty. The waltz is almost scary with the remarkably nuanced hushed playing and gritty tone that the Pacificas give it, really ghostly, while the finale just grabs you and doesn't let go. Certainly not the "heart on sleeve" approach I would prefer for a desert island recording but in this particular matchup I found that they beat out the Borodins' more "saccharine" playing.
> 
> Also, it bothers me that the Borodins' 1967 cycle of 1-13 - which I hear contains their best recordings by common consensus - is unavailable on any of the four streaming services that I've downloaded. It's on Chandos, which is a label carried by everyone. Most of the time streaming is a blessing, but sometimes it makes me wonder if I'm missing something by not owning a single CD.


ACB: The Borodin Quartet's 2nd cycle, which is complete, is even better and also has the Piano Quintet with Richter as well as the String Octet, which is a hoot.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Ah, I was able to find that one on Spotify! 



. I can't be the only one who's a bit confused about the various iterations of the Borodin Quartet and their recordings. Speaking of which, I haven't heard much about the 2018 Decca cycle by what I'm assuming is a completely new Borodin ensemble. Any thoughts?


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## SearsPoncho

ACB: You ARE missing something - a heck of a lot - by not owning a single cd. If you're relying completely on streaming, then you're essentially ripping off the artists because most get nothing from streaming. Don't you feel they deserve something for giving you so much pleasure and enhancing your life? Furthermore, once you hear music on a proper stereo component system with quality speakers, you'll wonder how you previously accepted and tolerated such lousy audio. 

ACB, I'm not picking on you or trying to be pedantic; I know how much you enjoy music and would like you to hear the masterpieces we discuss in the best audio quality possible that comes closest to replicating the experience of hearing the music live. I occasionally stream music from YouTube if I don't have a recording of a piece and I want to take a test spin. If I like it and know I will return, I buy the cd. Again, this is not a rant against you - it's coming from a place of love and friendship.


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## starthrower

Give him a break, Poncho. If I was ACB's age I wouldn't be putting a millstone around my neck collecting tons of CDs. I've got five thousand and my wife and I are thinking of moving. It's going to be a nightmare! I would bet 95 percent of classical artists make almost nothing from CD sales. They make their money playing live and teaching.

Anyway, I'm finally getting around to listening to the Shosty quartet and it's beautiful. This Fitzwilliam recording sounds superb! No other comments because I'm just taking it all in for the first time.


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## Merl

Right to clear up on the *Borodins*. A I said earlier in the thread there's 4 recordings. 1 of which I own and 3 of which I've streamed. I have the 1960s 'Historic' Chandos set. I 've always found their #2 a touch on the stiff side (yet some others from that cycle are excellent) but the remastered recording is very good and is in decent stereo with little hiss (if a little dry) . My thoughts haven't changed on this after listening again but it's still a fine one. The Virgin partial set from the 90s is OK too but they do it better elsewhere. The best Borodin recordings, IMO, are the Melodiya vibrant 1980s one (superb) and the new 2014-18 Decca set which is also very impressive. I've had time to also listen the *Brodskys*' live and studio accounts. Not much in it between both (the live is a little broader but not much) but I prefer the studio performance which has more presence and is a better recording to my ears. Very impressive. The *St Petersburg* account I found slow and rather stodgy. I'll sum up in a while.


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## Carmina Banana

I have listened to the Carducci and I like it, but I think it lacks the gravitas of the Pacifica. I would say what they bring is an occasional sense of playfulness, which is an important ingredient also. Overall, though, I think they soften some of the impact of some moments. I guess I am thinking of the last movement, in particular. 
I do like how they approached the waltz. They brought out the spooky quality. 
This is a good group with some interesting ideas, but I am looking forward to hearing some of the more classic recordings now.


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## Allegro Con Brio

SearsPoncho said:


> ACB: You ARE missing something - a heck of a lot - by not owning a single cd. If you're relying completely on streaming, then you're essentially ripping off the artists because most get nothing from streaming. Don't you feel they deserve something for giving you so much pleasure and enhancing your life? Furthermore, once you hear music on a proper stereo component system with quality speakers, you'll wonder how you previously accepted and tolerated such lousy audio.
> 
> ACB, I'm not picking on you or trying to be pedantic; I know how much you enjoy music and would like you to hear the masterpieces we discuss in the best audio quality possible that comes closest to replicating the experience of hearing the music live. I occasionally stream music from YouTube if I don't have a recording of a piece and I want to take a test spin. If I like it and know I will return, I buy the cd. Again, this is not a rant against you - it's coming from a place of love and friendship.


I do hear you and understand this logic. I do listen on audiophile headphones with lossless FLAC on Primephonic so the sound quality isn't a factor. As a freshman in college, I don't feel ready to be burdened with physical media and to spend inordinate amounts of money on it. For me, the difference is not akin to real books vs. ebooks (I am an avid collector of books). The music sounds the same; it is just the experience of owning it that is different. If I ever were to decide I wanted to build a "real" music collection, I would do it via download (and I do occasionally do so for Hyperion, etc. recordings that I really like). I must say I am slightly baffled by the CD enthusiasm on this forum, but as a young'n, I'm well prepared to chalk it up to ignorance and the "digital age." I mean, just buying a CD player would put me back much more than I would prefer!


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## Helgi

No need to feel bad about streaming, ACB. My reasons for wanting to own CDs are partly just materialistic collector-itis, and building and maintaining my lossless file collection is very time consuming and not something I would necessarily recommend. I just can't be helped :lol:

As for Shostakovich, and CDs for that matter; I’m still waiting for my Pacifica collection to arrive! I think they must’ve routed it through the Suez canal.

But besides streaming, I have two good sets in my collection; Fitzwilliam on CD and Mandelring on hi-res files. I started my listening with the Emersons in the car, on Spotify, but didn’t get a chance to listen past the 2nd movement. Going to revisit that one.

The Mandelring sound great, both the performance and recorded sound. My fancy new headphones are probably boosting my perception/impressions, but to me this sounds absolutely top notch recording-wise.

I'm posting this without having read the week's discussion, btw., and looking forward to catching up when I have the time.


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do hear you and understand this logic. I do listen on audiophile headphones with lossless FLAC on Primephonic so the sound quality isn't a factor. As a freshman in college, I don't feel ready to be burdened with physical media and to spend inordinate amounts of money on it. For me, the difference is not akin to real books vs. ebooks (I am an avid collector of books). The music sounds the same; it is just the experience of owning it that is different. If I ever were to decide I wanted to build a "real" music collection, I would do it via download (and I do occasionally do so for Hyperion, etc. recordings that I really like). I must say I am slightly baffled by the CD enthusiasm on this forum, but as a young'n, I'm well prepared to chalk it up to ignorance and the "digital age." I mean, just buying a CD player would put me back much more than I would prefer!


Wow, I didn't know you were that young! I must say I'm impressed by your eloquence and intelligence. I'm sure I would be embarrassed by what I wrote when I was your age. You also have good taste in music; I hope you find other classical music enthusiasts in your age bracket. When I was a college student I attended many free or cheap concerts on campus, often with adventurous programs unlikely to be duplicated in big halls by famous musicians. I hope you have access to such concerts as well.

Sorry for going off on this tangent. I thought it was ok to discuss this because you brought up the subject. I was just sharing an opinion, that's all. It's just another point of view, but I do believe the audio quality of a streaming service cannot compare to cds played on a decent stereo system. We'll agree to disagree and get back to the Shostakovich.

P.S. I understand the financial considerations that you or any student must have.


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## Merl

.........................


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do hear you and understand this logic. I do listen on audiophile headphones with lossless FLAC on Primephonic so the sound quality isn't a factor. As a freshman in college, I don't feel ready to be burdened with physical media and to spend inordinate amounts of money on it. For me, the difference is not akin to real books vs. ebooks (I am an avid collector of books). The music sounds the same; it is just the experience of owning it that is different. If I ever were to decide I wanted to build a "real" music collection, I would do it via download (and I do occasionally do so for Hyperion, etc. recordings that I really like). I must say I am slightly baffled by the CD enthusiasm on this forum, but as a young'n, I'm well prepared to chalk it up to ignorance and the "digital age." I mean, just buying a CD player would put me back much more than I would prefer!


Having heard this directly from a classical pianist who makes his living (such as it is) from playing, I can tell you that yes, the streaming services are essentially legalized piracy. But while he might make a penny (if he's lucky) from a Spotify download, he only makes about a quarter from a CD sale. In fact, he doesn't even bother to bring CDs to sell at his concerts anymore.

As per ST, he does make most of his money from live concerts, teaching, etc. That's actually true for ALL musicians right now. Live gigs pay the rent, and CD sales pay for coffee. And as you can imagine, this past year of lockdown has been brutal on everybody. When I asked him how I could do my part to support the people who play the music I love, he said that buying a ticket to an online concert is probably the best way right now, and also spreading the word about said concerts to let other music lovers know about them.

As someone who just turned 60, I've got a boxful of vinyl in the basement and a large cabinet full of CDs. I've also got one foot in the digital download age, with at least a hundred albums that I've purchased with real money (as ACB has), but with nothing to show for it but a filename on my laptop. This is where ACB is spot-on about the experience of ownership. To him, this doesn't feel strange at all, but I'll always feel a little empty-handed when I play a download, if you know what I mean.

(I was going to finish this by pointing out that there's no auditory difference between the digital data read from a CD vs. the data from a lossless FLAC, and that even lossless FLAC vs. 44 KHz/16-bit mp3 cannot be differentiated by 99% of listeners in a blind A/B test, but maybe that's a rabbit hole best left for another day. Or never!)

Anyway, I appreciate the disclaimer that all of this is coming from a place of love and friendship, as SP said. And I'm just glad that a young person has taken the time to be here, because without him there's much less hope of keeping this music alive 50 years from now!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> View attachment 153678
> 
> 
> .........................


OK, I have to admit I don't understand this. I am pathetically ignorant about meme/social media/whatnot culture compared to most people my age. But it looks funny!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> OK, I have to admit I don't understand this. I am pathetically ignorant about meme/social media/whatnot culture compared to most people my age. But it looks funny!


And you think I understand it? I just liked it cos it said 'Allegro Con Brio' and had cute cats on it. I'm easily amused. Lol


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## Merl

I'm glad to say that constant repetive listening to this quartet has finally made it jump up my list of fave Shosty SQs. However, I'm Shostied-out so here goes. Usual disclaimer (_only my views, I might change my mind, you may feel differently.....etc_).

Recommended (all excellent recordings) 

Emerson
Danel
Taneyev
Mandelring
Alexander
Borodin (1960s) 
Carducci

*Highly recommended
*
*Borodin (new Decca cycle)* - this recording is lovely. Listen to that cello sound in the 3rd movement - glorious. A touch off the top. 
*Fitzwilliam* - the Fitzwilliams are tremendously consistent in the early quartets and they play this one right down the middle with little fuss. 
*Eder* - although they don't often feature much in best recordings in Shosty, the more erratic Eder on Naxos are wholly convincing here in a more rustic fashion and their 3rd movement is direct and captivating. 
*Pacifica* - technically the Pacificas are hard to beat. The feeling of unity and flow is strong here as it is across their whole superb cycle. 
*Brodsky* - ooh that ensemble sound is so rich. A very fine account with a personalty of its own. I need to hear more of this cycle as what I have heard, up to now, is very fine indeed. 
*Rubio* - another budget performance that rarely gets a mention but wins against the more expensive sets in this one. Possibly their finest performance from an underrated set.

*My top picks
*
Yet again, I couldnt nail my colours to the mast and choose just one recording as there were so many excellent ones but these stood out to me.









*Shostakovich Quartet* - the warmth of the Shosty Quartet's sound is a major plus point here, especially in a super opening movement. They're lovingly caught and really delve into Shosty's edgy rhythms and spiky harmonies with aplomb. So good I'm waiting for the complete set to arrive (I adored their Borodin as well and bought that too).









*Borodin (Melodiya)* - if I enjoyed the Borodins' earlier recordings and later ones, I found this one even better. Very similar in style and scope to their earlier 67-71 set but this one has greater personalty, great acoustics and this performance has the advantage of livelier, more rustic playing . That first violin sound is magnetic and theres a lovely sense of space around the quartet who capture the twists and turns of the 2nd quartet expertly. Recorded between 1978 and 1983.









*Dover* - oh my word, the sound of this recording is just divine. A recording that is technically excellent, beautifully recorded and brilliantly realised. Listen to the ghostly cello in the 3rd movement (only the Carduccis do it as hauntingly) and those perfect pizzocatos and you will be won over.









*Pavel Haas -* this has gone from recommended to highly recommended to a top pick, as with subsequent listening it just get better and better. It's a vibrant, busy, restless, insistent, gloriously played performance that gets under your skin. Do this quartet ever do anything badly? I'm beginning to think not.

PS. The Shostakovich quartet recording is available on separate Olympia cds but also in three volumes or in a complete 5cd box on Regis.


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## HenryPenfold

Great round up Merl - thanks!

I'm needing to play catch-up, re-listening to the Pacifica atm, and recently finished the Fitzwilliam (top notch). Borodin (Chandos), Rubio, Eder, Beethoven and Shostakovich scheduled for later tonight and tomorrow morning. 

Don't Know the Pavel Haas or the Taneyev.

Glad to see appreciation for the Rubio. That was the first set I bought many years ago, and was my only set for such a long time until I acquired the Fitzwilliam.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl - another excellent job! I don't know how you do it. The best Shostakovich set I know is the 2nd Borodin cycle from the 80's. The Brodsky Quartet also occupy a special place in my heart because their disc of Shosty's 7th, 8th and 9th quartets was my first exposure to this incredible chamber music legacy. I have sampled the recent Borodin recordings (13th Quartet) and am very tempted...

*EDIT*: I'm also glad to see you mentioned the Dover Quartet. They're the quartet in residence for a local chamber music festival I regularly attend. I even saw them perform the Shostakovich String Octet with the Tokyo Quartet. It was great.


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## HenryPenfold

I found this, this evening. New to me. A really useful Shostakovich resource for all DSCH fans.


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## Burbage

I know it's not Friday, but I've done this already.

Shostakovich's String Quartets are righful planks of the canon, up there with Beethoven and Carter and the other one, and mighty fine they are too. As with the symphonies, there are a lot of them and, like the symphonies, they each have their own character. Which can make it difficult to keep track.

The Second Quartet isn't as popular as some others and could arguably be described as a "Cinderella" Quartet. So that's what I choose to call it. Not only because it's perhaps a little neglected but also because, to my ears, the third movement owes a fair deal to the Waltz from Prokofiev's "Cinderella", and its wilfully awkward harmonic lurches. Or, perhaps, vice versa. I can't be sure because both Prokofiev and Shostakovich spent part of 1944 in the "Composers' House" at Ivanovo, a farm repurposed by the Composers' Union as what we'd now call a "creative hub". And there, at suspiciously similar times, Shostakovich was working on his second quartet and Prokofiev was preparing, among other things, his ballet "Cinderella", which would premiere the following year.

I am not sure what the atmosphere was like on the farm (though I'm sure there are many enlightening biographies, I've not read any yet). But what I can gather from arms-reach sources is that the siege of Leningrad had lifted in January, and Shostakovich was rejoining his family who were already at the farm, so it's possible everyone was merry and cheerful and they all went mushroom-picking with smurf-like glee. However, the facility was run by the Composers' Union, whose members, including Prokoviev, had panned Shostakovich's 8th Symphony in the spring, and Shostakovich was now having to work, by choice or design or misfortune, in a 'converted' hen house. Which raises the tempting thought that Shostakovich, feeling a bit watched over, committed the overheard to paper as a token of revenge.

Though it might have been a more collegiate sort of osmosis, the result of gathering round for sing-songs after hours, when advice, wanted or otherwise, might be exchanged on matters musical or (sotto voce) political. But, whatever it was, here's Shostakovich, borrowing folk tunes, and possibly from Prokofiev, unless it was the other way around.

I've assumed they're folk tunes. Though that, and whether or not they're meant to memorialise murdered minorities, is apparently a matter of debate. They certainly sound traditional and Eastern European, though the Theme that's Variationed seems clearly Russian, but I'm no ethnomusicologist, and know that other composers haven't been above claiming to 'borrow' folk tunes that nobody's ever been able to identify. Dvorak, I think, is often slated for having made up tunes that sound so much as if they were stolen that it's a bit of a fraud that they weren't, while Strauss got sued for having stolen a tune that wasn't folk enough. Shostakovich, ever the survivor, would later steal a doughnut-sellers' jingle and get nothing but applause.

But that's in the future. For now we're stuck in a 1944 hen-house, where Shostakovich is writing a quartet, and I'm wondering why on earth he'd do a thing like that.

Famously, Shostakovich had a plan for his string quartets, and some suggest he had that plan in his head from the moment he sat down to write the first. He certainly said, in later life, that he had a plan, and the numerologists have had a great deal of fun trying to line all the quartets up, like Ptolomy with the planets, devising ever more complicated plans within plans to fit the actuality. But, as it turned out the Earth really wasn't the centre of the Universe, I suspect we'll one day find that Shostakovich wasn't entirely made of clockwork.

And, whatever the plan, I gather he wrote this quartet for the pestering Beethoven Quartet, after writing a Piano Quintet and Piano Trio for them first. Chamber music was, apparently, deemed "socialist realist" at the time, so it made sense. And the Beethovens clearly had longevity, suggesting good political, as well as musical, instincts. Whatever care he took over what went down on paper, it wouldn't have hurt to know people who could play it 'acceptably' or, at least, quickly enough so no-one would notice the anti-socialist bits. And what better thing to write for a quartet than a quartet?

Whatever the exact reason, it's a fine piece. I've mostly stuck with the Melodiya Borodins (CDs I've turned to FLAC, FWIW) and the Sorrel Quartet's collection (bought as FLAC) and I've been enjoying both very much*. The work isn't, I think, as 'symphonic' as the Piano Trio but somehow freer and more, as the movement titles imply, in the nature of a suite**, and I think it adapts to different energies and approaches.

_* I don't hear Merl's lost rhythm in the Sorrel version but it seems I've been blessed with a sub-optimal sense of timing, a suspicion first entertained by a number of teachers, later fuelled by a fondness for Claudio Arrau and eventually confirmed in a neurological study of the musically incapable, in which I played the part of a guinea pig.

** An idea that might have been put in my mind by Tabakova's 2004 "Suite in Old Style", which also has something of "Cinderella" about it. Though Tabakova writes of that as a homage to Rameau, so maybe all three have a common ancestor I've not dug far enough to find._


----------



## Malx

Firstly, thanks Henry for reacquainting me with this quartet one that I had seldom visited over the last number of years. I guess that is a direct result of having complete sets on the shelves, I pull the box down and make a selection tending to play the old favourites each time.

Like others I tend to view Shostakovich's Quartets as his masterworks above the Symphonies good as they are. I have concentrated my listening to the two versions I have in my collection, the set the Borodins recorded in the 70/80s and the Pacificas.

As usual I have a great fondness for them both but having spent all morning with them I can say for this quartet I marginally favour the Pacificas - to my ear I like the fact that they keep the momentum of the piece moving forward a bit better than the Borodins who are generally a litle more expansive particularily in the Adagio where I find myself wondering if they linger a bit too long. The Borodins also imo, perhaps inevitably, have a more Russian feel*, a slightly darker mood if you like - which is a valid approach but for me pushed to keep one or the other I'd opt for the Pacificas.

* I've awarded myself a prize for stating the bloody obvious!


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## Merl

Btw, this is my blogged review of Shosty 4th quartet recordings. I did this about 6 months ago, as i missed much of the original thread discussion, but cant find my original notes on each specific recordings (I think I binned my smaller notepad as it was full). However, i did keep the ratings so Ive posted them on the blog. Unfortunately I never got to hear the old Janacek Quartet recording on Supraphon, which I expect is impressive. If anyone has a link send it to me as id love to hear it.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3450-shostakovich-string-quartet-4-a.html


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## mparta

Not to break up the Shostakovich fest.....

But I mentioned elsewhere that i've finally added this to my hearing, not pieces I'd previously known. They are wonderful, especially the 3rd. They are (characteristically for Schumann) clustered in Op. 41, as he tended to hit a form (piano music, songs, chamber music) and then move on.

The Emerson playing here is a little abrasive for my tastes, maybe some of it is the characteristic of the recording. Acceptable though, but I like the music enough that I might seek out a different source.

Wonderful acquisition in all.


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## Allegro Con Brio

mparta, would you like your name to be added to the list of quartet nominators?


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## HenryPenfold

I've been listening to old the favourites, Beethoven, Borodin, Shostakovich and Fitzwilliam, and it's the latter that gets the nod. However, for some reason I seem to be enjoying more modern recordings. Pacifica are back in favour, I must have been having an off day earlier in the week. The Carducci really seem to do it for me and the Eder on Naxos give a clear, accurately played performance in great sound quality.

But I'm particularly taken with Belgian Quatuor Danel recording. They present the music so clearly and accurately, in a way quite similar to the Emerson Quartet, whilst also being warm and even sensual, but they do lack the searing intensity that the aforementioned traditional Russian (and Fitzwilliam) quartets achieve. The first violin really shines, especially in the second movement of course, and with repeated listens, I found the whole ensemble just got better and better (if that makes sense). The sound quality is top notch.

I'm not sure where to go next. I may have listened enough to this quartet anyway and may move on!


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## Merl

mparta said:


> Not to break up the Shostakovich fest.....
> 
> But I mentioned elsewhere that i've finally added this to my hearing, not pieces I'd previously known. They are wonderful, especially the 3rd. They are (characteristically for Schumann) clustered in Op. 41, as he tended to hit a form (piano music, songs, chamber music) and then move on.
> 
> The Emerson playing here is a little abrasive for my tastes, maybe some of it is the characteristic of the recording. Acceptable though, but I like the music enough that I might seek out a different source.
> 
> Wonderful acquisition in all.


Ive been listening to this today and I'm impressed. Sounds different to other Emerson performances and is more old-style and the opposite to something like the Zehetmair or Eroica performances. In fact, in parts it reminded me of a souped-up Itallianos. I may prefer the edginess of the Zehetmairs in the 1st but this is just as valid. Even added the 1st quartet performance to my Schumann SQ1 blog.


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## HenryPenfold

HenryPenfold said:


> I found this, this evening. New to me. A really useful Shostakovich resource for all DSCH fans.


And this for all things to do with chamber music .....


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## Helgi

HenryPenfold said:


> I've been listening to old the favourites, Beethoven, Borodin, Shostakovich and *Fitzwilliam*, and it's the latter that gets the nod.


Sounds remarkably good for a ~45 year old recording as well


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## HenryPenfold

Helgi said:


> Sounds remarkably good for a ~45 year old recording as well


Yes, to my ears it's demonstration quality ....


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Yes, to my ears it's demonstration quality ....


There are very few as consistent as the Fitzwilliams. Their cycle is the benchmark for me.


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## Helgi

This is a really good quartet and I overlooked it when I was getting to know the DSCH string quartets last summer. Early-number prejudice, no doubt. My general impression is that it’s a beautifully shaped piece, well balanced — or as ACB said, a well-rounded narrative.

And the ending is a bit of a thing of its own, the last two minutes. Sounds cinematic and surprisingly large in scope, somehow.

I’ve ended up mostly listening to (and very much enjoying) the Fitzwilliam recording, getting kind of bored with the Mandelring early on. My Russian Experience is still in transit somewhere and I don’t want to spoil the suspense by streaming it, so no Pacifica for me this week unless it arrives tomorrow.

Great as always to go through Merl’s Picks™ and here are some half baked observations of my own:

- The Dover sounded brilliant. And as for the cello sound, something I noticed also when listening to Debussy the other week is that getting the cello right is such an important thing with certain string quartets — definitely the case with this one. And the Dover’s engineers really get it right, both the sound of it and the placement.

- Borodin: I hear sarcasm here that I didn't hear in any of the others I listened to, and a playful quality that I believe someone mentioned already — it adds an interesting dimension to the music.

- Pavel Haas: not kidding around, are they? They seem to have this golden combination of youthful virtuosity and solid judgment.


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## HenryPenfold

I seem to have now gone full circle. Having thought I'd settled on modern performances that wear the emotional narrative of the music and its backstory lightly, I have returned to the Fitzwilliam Quartet's time-honoured performance on Decca. Having just listened to this recording twice, back to back, I'm clearly not ready to move on!

It's late here, so tomorrow I'll post my thoughts on why I believe the Fitwilliam Quartet's performance is the cream of the crop ....


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Pavel Haas Quartet is such a special ensemble and the CM world is fortunate to have them. They play with a suave virtuosity but their interpretations sound so spontaneous, so inspired, so fresh. They are able to breathe that unique rustic Czech flavor into their playing that I thought had disappeared from their performers after the fall of the Soviet Union (don’t ask me why, but at least Czech and Russian orchestras seem have to have gradually lost their special sound ever since then). In this quartet they are exceptionally recorded, and the way they launch into the brusque opening and dig their bows into Shostakovich’s spooky, sleazy counterpoint just hooked me in. I think that opening really needs to take off and generate a sense of mordant wit; they pass that test with flying colors. The playing has spark-flying energy but never becomes unduly driven or aggressive. And the slow movement is exquisite. I would have to say they are my favorite currently active string quartet out of those I’ve heard.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Also, weekly reminder: *Helgi*, you're up next.

If anyone is ever struggling to come up with a nomination, it may help to browse the TC Most Recommended String Quartets list on Page 2 here.

Current order of nominators:

Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund

And, an alphabetized master list of quartets:

Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
Bax - String Quartet No. 1
Beethoven - String Quartets No. 14, 16
Berg - Lyric Suite
Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
Britten - String Quartet No. 3
Carter - String Quartet No. 3
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime"
Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
Frank - Quijotidas
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
Haydn - String Quartets in G Minor Op. 20/3, F Minor Op. 20/5
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
Ives - String Quartet No. 2
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
Lachenmann - Gran Torso
Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
Lutosławski - String Quartet
Martinů - String Quartet No. 7 "Concerto da Camera"
Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" 
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
Reger - String Quartet No. 4
Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics 
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 
Schubert - String Quartets No. 13 "Rosamunde" and No. 15
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
Shostakovich - String Quartets No. 2, 4, 8
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
Xenakis - Tetras


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## Iota

Just dropping in to say how much I've enjoyed reading deliberations here on the Shostakovich, which was one of my early favourites of the quartets. And thanks, Merl, for yet another excellent Pavel Haas recommendation, a recording I hadn't heard before but which I liked immensely. The way they sculpt and characterise the details brings such inner life to the music. And, ACB, I completely agree about the slow movement (#2606), I've never heard it played so engagingly. They really are quite some outfit.


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## HenryPenfold

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## HenryPenfold

HenryPenfold said:


> I seem to have now gone full circle. Having thought I'd settled on modern performances that wear the emotional narrative of the music and its backstory lightly, I have returned to the Fitzwilliam Quartet's time-honoured performance on Decca. Having just listened to this recording twice, back to back, I'm clearly not ready to move on!
> 
> It's late here, so tomorrow I'll post my thoughts on why I believe the Fitwilliam Quartet's performance is the cream of the crop ....




Wendy Lesser, in her superb book "Music For Silenced Voices: Shostakovich And His Fifteen Quartets", makes a number of interesting observations concerning the second quartet. 

She believes that the death of Shostakovich's closest, and best friend Ivan Sollertinsky who died very unexpectedly at the age of 41 in February 1944, which had a profound affect him, is a huge influence on the second quartet. 

It is Shostakovich's deep sense of loss and mourning, and powerfully felt tragedy that imbues the music, especially the second movement. It's this backstory that I think the Fitzwilliam really get to so palpably in their performance (as do the Borodin). There are so many excellent performances of this quartet, and as much as I enjoy the stellar performances of the Pacifica, Brodsky, Danel et al (I still haven't got to the Pavel Haas), I think the older performances capture the context of the quartet and the conditions in which it was created. This is very out of character for me as I 'don't do' _programme music _and I care little for the circumstances of music's creation - it's universal to me. Anyway that has led me back to the_ *Fitzwilliam Quartet *who for me, are primus inter pares._


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## StevehamNY

If only because we're winding down the discussion of DSCH #2 and not yet into the next one (and because I spend too much time thinking about book covers and marketing), these are the three album covers I like even better than the Carduccis pretending to be a motorcycle gang:

























The Pacifica is hard to beat, right? Anybody else have a thought, assuming you care about this kind of thing?

(Don't worry, I won't make this a weekly thing.)


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## HenryPenfold

Yes, great covers. The Carducci's fail to convince as a motorcycle gang!!


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## Merl

Lol @ the Carduccis looking like a crap Sons of Anarchy. What about the Sorrels looking like they're attending a 1980s business meeting?


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Lol @ the Carduccis looking like a crap Sons of Anarchy. What about the Sorrels looking like they're attending a 1980s business meeting?
> 
> View attachment 153789


Isn't this more like a 2021 zoom call meeting?

How about the Kopelmans awkwardly standing next to... um, whatever this is?


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## SearsPoncho

Steve - The cover of the Pacifica is great. It looks like Ivan Drago from Rocky IV saying, "I must break you."

The guy to the left of that thing on the Kopelman cover looks like he's thinking, "this is a bad idea."


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Steve - The cover of the Pacifica is great. It looks like Ivan Drago from Rocky IV saying, "I must break you."
> 
> The guy to the left of that thing on the Kopelman cover looks like he's thinking, "this is a bad idea."


"You hurt him! See, he's not a machine! He's a man!"

(Apologies if you don't have the entire movie, or at least the fight scene, memorized like me and SP.)

And yes, the guy to the left of the Manute Bol statue is the esteemed violist Igor Sulyga, I believe, and right about now he's wondering if he could put on a leather jacket and pass for a Carducci.


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## SearsPoncho

As an NBA fan, if that statue is THE Manute "not in my house" Bol, that is awesome! 

"If he dies, he dies." Ok, that's my last Rocky IV quote.


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## Merl

Oh crap, it's Helgi's pick. I am worried this could be another marathon for me.


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## Helgi

Well, Presto gives me 26 recordings - the mile equivalent of a full marathon 

After much dithering over three of his late quartets, I present to you *Antonín Dvořák's String Quartet No. 13 in G major, Op. 106 (B192)*.

Here's a note by Terry Barfoot from a Chilingrian Quartet booklet:



> The Quartet in G major, opus 106, is Dvořák's penultimate such composition, for although opus 105 in A flat was begun first it was completed later. These two quartets were the first works he completed after returning from the United States; opus 106 was written during November and December 1895. Its style reflects a generally sunny outlook, but its taut structure is the result of a deep understanding and a long experience of writing for the medium.
> 
> The principal subject of the first movement has great melodic freshness and generates an energetic motif which is used as an agent of transition, whereas the subsidiary theme is expressive and song-like. The development is masterly, ranging through various keys with subtle explorations of this material, often using dance-like transformations stemming from the first subject's triplet figure. The richness of content is reflected in the way that the recapitulation presents a meltingly lyrical new theme as a counter-subject, before the coda reaches a jubilant conclusion.
> 
> The Adagio ma non troppo is one of Dvořák's most eloquent and intimate slow movements. Its design is that of theme and variations, alternating between major and minor, and exploring many moods within the set expressive agenda. At the heart of the movement, for instance, there is an intensification when the first violin in its high register is set against a richly textured accompaniment. The theme itself has a wide melodic compass of more than two octaves, but nevertheless its intrinsic character is broad and calm.
> 
> The Molto vivace third movement has echos of the composer's American trip, recalling the famous 'New World' Symphony. It opens with a vigorous skočná (spring dance) which is contrasted against a smoothly flowing theme presented in dialogue between viola and violin. The central trio is an idyllic intermezzo of great melodic charm, while the restatement is shortened and concentrates on the initial theme.
> 
> The finale has real strength and vigour, reaching towards an emphatic conclusion stressing the scale of the whole work. Yet an improvisatory feeling is present after the slow introduction; this probably stems from the irregular rhytmic shaping of another Czech dance, the furiant, which alternates duple and triple time. However, the mood is sometimes pensive, largely because of the serious tone of the second theme, as well as a tendency to allude to the music of the opening movement. The closing stages are lively, even celebratory, as the Quartet moves to a true affirmation of life.


Some YouTube links:

Szymanowski Quartet





Janacek Quartet (cuts off at the end, though)





Pavel Haas Quartet, recording w/score


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## Carmina Banana

This makes a nice transition, because I am currently listening to the Pavel Haas quartet play the Shostakovich and I see they are a recommended listen for the Dvorak. The Pavel Haas recording is my current favorite for the Shosty, by the way. There are so many wonderful things about this recording and I can't wait to listen to more of this group. 
I think record covers should be a thing we do. They are often puzzling and unintentionally funny. I had to laugh at the Kopelman. This seems so much like string players--OK, we'll come out of our practice rooms for five minutes for a photo, but we have to bring our instruments with us because they are far to valuable to leave unattended.


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## Merl

I make it 30 recordings ( it I've probably missed some). Here's one of my wonderful lists.









I'll probably kick off with these 3 tomorrow (or tonight if I can) and then plow thru the HD to see what else I have to hand.


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## Helgi

Nice, that should keep you off the streets!

I have the Panocha, Pavel Haas and Artemis, but am thinking of starting off with something I'm not familiar with. The Cypress for example, I remember liking their Beethoven.


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> I think record covers should be a thing we do. They are often puzzling and unintentionally funny. I had to laugh at the Kopelman. This seems so much like string players--OK, we'll come out of our practice rooms for five minutes for a photo, but we have to bring our instruments with us because they are far to valuable to leave unattended.


If I kick this off again (and you may definitely regret encouraging me), I promise to do it at the very end of the week, after the essential business is done!

For now, I'm starting on the Dvorak! Looks like I only have the Panocha and the Haas, will look forward to hearing if there are other recordings I need to check out.


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## Merl

I have the Haas on the HD and its impressive.


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## Helgi

In other news I'm still listening to Shostakovich. My _Soviet_ Experience box came in Friday and I'm going through it from start to finish. Excellent stuff, and good booklet notes as well.


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## Bwv 1080

Starting with Vogler, they were my favorite for Reger. Another composer I dont listen to that much, so will see how it goes


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## Merl

I adore Dvorak:s quartets and especially from 11 onwards. 13 and 14 are brilliant quartets, created by a composer at the top of his game. For me, Dvorak's quartets are equal to Beethoven's quartets in my esteem, containing some of his best writing.

Getting the 13th quartet wrong is difficult and I've actually never heard anyone mess it up completely (until this comparison, no doubt). I listened to the *Vlach* (Naxos), *Prague* (from the HD) and *Panocha* last night and this morning and all 3 are terrific. I'm partway through the *Stamitz* cd right now (from my cycle) and it isn't impressing me as much as the others I've listened to. The Vlach recording surprised me as it's much better than I remember it even if they do take their time (over 41 minutes compared to the Haas' 37). However, they are particularly haunting in the middle of the last movement and their account doesnt seem slow.

Edit: As Mrs Merl was having a lie-in I decided to try the *old Vlach Quartet*'s early 60s recording (available on YouTube) as I'm usually a fan of their performances of Czech music, in particular. The early 60s recording is very good (if a little close and occasionally shrill) however I wasn't convinced by a rather foursquare, rigid performance. Its decent but in comparison to the new Vlachs for once the kids take this one. Check out the finale, for example, where the new Vlachs are particularly impressive. The old Vlachs don't really get this one off the ground. I've just started listening to the *Lindsays* and their more abrasive approach which works well in Haydn isn't as successful here. I'm only on the first movement but this is a bit too heavy at the moment. We'll see if it improves later.

Edit2: yeah the *Lindsays* are a bit too vigourous here and lose the subtelty with their version. Agree somewhat about the *Cypess* account, Helgi. Its brilliantly played but not quite got the feeling of some of the other quartets here but its a technically excellent performance and easily recommendable.


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## Helgi

I listened to the Cypress and thought it was very well played, but there was a slight sense of discontinuity between movements. The Artemis were much more convincing and committed in comparison.

Oh, and there's a Prazak recording I wasn't aware of: https://www.discogs.com/Pražák-Quartet-Antonín-Dvořák-String-Quartets-N10-N13/release/17608255

Alas, it's not available on Spotify.


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## Merl

Helgi said:


> ... Oh, and there's a Prazak recording I wasn't aware of: https://www.discogs.com/Pražák-Quartet-Antonín-Dvořák-String-Quartets-N10-N13/release/17608255
> 
> Alas, it's not available on Spotify.


I left it off the list by mistake. Got that one on the HD. If I remember it's a fine one.


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## FastkeinBrahms

This quartet was new to me, and I listened to it for the first time with the Panocha this afternoon. What a glorious piece and wonderful playing! 

Actually, I had listened to the splendid Harnoncourt/CGB performance of the Wood Dove just before, which was composed at about the same time, and I had the impression that, despite the traditional structure of the quartet, Dvorak might have been inpired by a story or a poem, when he wrote it. There are mysterious, almost eery sections, where I pictured goblins and witches lurking, among the sunny sonorities, and especially the slow movement, with its many different sections, seems to tell a Czech folk story. 

I will listen to the Alban Berg next, expecting a cold shower after the bubble bath of the Panocha, with their modernist hard-edge approach, but maybe Dvorak manages to soften even those "Emersons from Vienna", let's see.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just listened to the Alban Berg. Indeed a cold shower after Panocha, but a most invigorating one! The slow movement is a very dark reading, but an incredibly exciting one. The last movement is fantastic, I found the Panocha almost bland in comparison. ABQ reminds the listener that this was composed on the doorstep to the 20th century, great!


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## Merl

Listening to the 2 *Panocha* accounts, side by side, there's not much difference between the two but I definitely prefer the 80s Supraphon recording from their complete cycle rather than the 2008 remake on Camerata. It has a really lively, earthy feel to it and was one of the strongest performances from their complete cycle. The Camerata release is still recommendable but not as strong as the remade 14th quartet. The Czech *Wihan* Quartet play with a lot of emotional engagement in a lovely acoustic and like the Cypress this is an equally fine release (I particularly like the first two movements) but I wasn't as convinced by the 2nd half of the quartet, especially the sweet-toned Allegro finale that I thought needed a little more fire, as good as it was. I may return to this one at the end of this review for another listen. I thoroughly enjoyed the Czech *Bennewitz* Quartet's performance on SWR. It has a really good vibe about it. They play with the requisite intensity for this quartet, bouncing strings in quicker sections and the slow section of the finale is wistful and quite lovely,


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Not long ago I had Dvorak no. 13 on repeat with the Pavel Haas quartet. Guess I got too used to it, because my usual favorites Artemis sounds less inspired...Maybe it's not loud enough?!


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## Merl

Listening to the 2 *Panocha* accounts, side by side, there's not much difference between the two but I definitely prefer the 80s Supraphon recording from their complete cycle rather than the 2008 remake on Camerata. It has a really lively, earthy feel to it and was one of the strongest performances from their complete cycle. The Camerata release is still recommendable but not as strong as the remade 14th quartet. The Czech *Wihan* Quartet play with a lot of emotional engagement in a lovely acoustic and like the Cypress this is an equally fine release (I particularly like the first two movements) but I wasn't as convinced by the 2nd half of the quartet, especially the sweet-toned Allegro finale that I thought needed a little more fire, as good as it was. I may return to this one at the end of this review for another listen. I thoroughly enjoyed the Czech *Bennewitz* Quartet's performance on SWR. It has a really good vibe about it. They play with the requisite intensity for this quartet, bouncing strings in quicker sections and the slow section of the finale is wistful and quite lovely, The *Martinu* quartet are decent too but perhaps their approach is a little too deliberate and they lack the spontaneity of others but this is still good music-making. The biggest drawback of the *Emerson*'s account isn't their playing which is excellent, it's the very close-up recording (it seems they are sat on your lap) that affords little air around the quartet, which is a shame as this is mighty fine playing and for a group of non-Czechs they really capture the fire and beauty of Dvorak's wonderful quartet and their adagio is very moving. Still very recommendable.


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## Helgi

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Not long ago I had Dvorak no. 13 on repeat with the Pavel Haas quartet. Guess I got too used to it, because my usual favorites Artemis sounds less inspired...Maybe it's not loud enough?!


To my ears the Artemis aren't really lacking in inspiration or energy, but the Pavel Haas are better recorded so maybe that's part of it? Besides their god-given awesomeness and overall sound 

I really liked the Vlach Qt. Prague. The slower tempo is a nice change of perspective and they make it work really well, no lack of intensity or momentum. And they play it in such a loving way, too.


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## Bwv 1080

Looking for a more recent recording, picked Wihan, which I had never heard of before, from Idagio. Very nice sound, although I remain unconvinced by the piece - its pleasant enough, and I do like the middle two movements better than the first and last


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Sharing my thoughts about the Shostakovich No. 2 in A Major as the week wraps up. I have a particular fondness for this quartet and was excited when it was picked, as this is something I would've easily picked myself. I think it's pretty underrated in a lot of ways and gets overshadowed by his later quartets. I think it's an absolutely perfect model for a modern string quartet and I rate it very highly. 

Like other people have mentioned, it is very large, almost symphonic, in scope. The first movement has a very vibrant, polyphonic character and I always associate the image it conjures up with a mountainous, taiga landscape. It's a perfect cohesive synthesis of ideas that undergo thorough development and the buildups of tension and beautiful dissonant clashes are exhilarating. As for the 2nd movement, I often see people look at Shostakovich's music through far too jaded a lens, as if all joy and happiness is really sarcastic, twisted and ironic. While that's a big part of Shostakovich's musical personality, I think people take it way too far and overlook many moments of genuine happiness in his music (at least how I interpret it, I'm neither a scholar nor live inside Shosty's head). The slow movement is a perfect example of such: in my opinion, it's pure love and it's incredibly moving. I don't think it carries that title of "romance" for nothing. The 3rd movement some users described as a "ghostly waltz" (I dig that description) is something any metalhead would appreciate if you show it to them, Shostakovich's rhythmic and playful scherzi movements are always something special. I don't have much to say about the 4th movement besides that I love it too for the same reasons as the previous three: amazing interaction and development between the instruments and I think that all the material he works with in each movement is really quite memorable and stands out to me a lot.


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## Carmina Banana

I enjoyed the Pavel Haas, but found some movements a little harsh (the first movement is a little problematic for any group with those potentially screechy high notes. They had some wonderful moments and romantic flair.
I also really enjoyed the Lindsey Quartet. Lots of fun and excitement. The opening of the third movement was great. Unbridled anticipation. Like a big friendly dog who knows it is time for a treat. 

I have some thoughts about Dvorak as a composer, but first I wanted to just share some personal memories:
I was nuts about the 9th symphony as a child. Couldn’t get enough. I had an LP of Bruno Walter and the Columbian Symphony with a misty landscape on the cover. It was in heavy rotation, as they say.
When I was a teenager, I turned pages for my piano teacher’s chamber music concert. It was the Dumky trio. I loved how free and spontaneous that music was!
While in college, I splurged on the latest in technology: a walkman. The only piece I listened to for a long time was the Dvorak serenade for strings. I will always associate this exciting new device with that gorgeous piece. I could hear it whenever and wherever I wanted.
None of this is pertinent to our discussion, but I’m just reflecting on how I have always responded emotionally to Dvorak and I still do.


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## Carmina Banana

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Sharing my thoughts about the Shostakovich No. 2 in A Major as the week wraps up. I have a particular fondness for this quartet and was excited when it was picked, as this is something I would've easily picked myself. I think it's pretty underrated in a lot of ways and gets overshadowed by his later quartets. I think it's an absolutely perfect model for a modern string quartet and I rate it very highly.
> 
> Like other people have mentioned, it is very large, almost symphonic, in scope. The first movement has a very vibrant, polyphonic character and I always associate the image it conjures up with a mountainous, taiga landscape. It's a perfect cohesive synthesis of ideas that undergo thorough development and the buildups of tension and beautiful dissonant clashes are exhilarating. As for the 2nd movement, I often see people look at Shostakovich's music through far too jaded a lens, as if all joy and happiness is really sarcastic, twisted and ironic. While that's a big part of Shostakovich's musical personality, I think people take it way too far and overlook many moments of genuine happiness in his music (at least how I interpret it, I'm neither a scholar nor live inside Shosty's head). The slow movement is a perfect example of such: in my opinion, it's pure love and it's incredibly moving. I don't think it carries that title of "romance" for nothing. The 3rd movement some users described as a "ghostly waltz" (I dig that description) is something any metalhead would appreciate if you show it to them, Shostakovich's rhythmic and playful scherzi movements are always something special. I don't have much to say about the 4th movement besides that I love it too for the same reasons as the previous three: amazing interaction and development between the instruments and I think that all the material he works with in each movement is really quite memorable and stands out to me a lot.


Good point about Shostakovich not being all about irony and sarcasm. There is also a sincerity and I would also say vulnerability about his music and that, combined with the irony is what makes it so powerful.


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## Merl

A few interesting recordings plundered today. The *Prazaks* and the *Talichs* are splendid. The Prazaks shaded it for me just with subtle dynamic touches that colour their version better (see also Panocha). The Talich are more steady, direct and earthily lyrical but you couldnt fault their way here and if you want a different account this could be the one for you. The finale is played almost as if they are playing from memory. The *Ragazze* performance I found a little underwhelming - too light and quite mannered in places. Not a bad one but with such stiff competition it's hard to recommend it. The first one I played (early hours of the morning) was a finely balanced one from the *Chilingirians*. As I've come to expect from them this is a genuine, finely-honed account and, whilst it doesn't trouble the very best, it's easy to like and recommend. Some lovely shading of accents and beautiful, lyrical flow in this recording. Btw, just listening to the finale of the *Vlach (60s)* recording again I'm tempted to say I was a bit harsh the other day. It is a fine recording but I still would have like some more fire at the end.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina Banana said:


> I enjoyed the Pavel Haas, but found some movements a little harsh (the first movement is a little problematic for any group with those potentially screechy high notes. They had some wonderful moments and romantic flair.
> I also really enjoyed the Lindsey Quartet. Lots of fun and excitement. The opening of the third movement was great. Unbridled anticipation. Like a big friendly dog who knows it is time for a treat.
> 
> I have some thoughts about Dvorak as a composer, but first I wanted to just share some personal memories:
> I was nuts about the 9th symphony as a child. Couldn't get enough. I had an LP of Bruno Walter and the Columbian Symphony with a misty landscape on the cover. It was in heavy rotation, as they say.
> When I was a teenager, I turned pages for my piano teacher's chamber music concert. It was the Dumky trio. I loved how free and spontaneous that music was!
> While in college, I splurged on the latest in technology: a walkman. The only piece I listened to for a long time was the Dvorak serenade for strings. I will always associate this exciting new device with that gorgeous piece. I could hear it whenever and wherever I wanted.
> None of this is pertinent to our discussion, but I'm just reflecting on how I have always responded emotionally to Dvorak and I still do.


Carmina - I listened to Dvorak's 9th so many times in the '80s that I actually got sick of it. I had a cassette tape of Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra which I wore out on my Sony Walkman and car tape deck. To this day, it is the only piece of classical music I got sick of. Brahms might have written better symphonies and concertos, but Dvorak was much, much better at composing string quartets. Love 'em.

What a glorious work the 13th is! The Panocha Quartet's Supraphon cycle is never far from my cd player, and that's what I've been playing. Gorgeous playing and audio quality. For me, the work is a great summation of Dvorak's style and musical voice.

Merl, I'm also a big fan of his 10th quartet.


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## Merl

I've listened to another couple of absolute belters of performances tonight that just nail this (no spoilers for now), one being a stand-out. So good to hear so many great versions of this lovely quartet (that finale is one of my favourite Dvorak movements). I'm very impressed with the standard of recording in this one more than any other quartet I've sampled on here. Hardly anyone has put in a poor performance.



SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, I'm also a big fan of his 10th quartet.


Me too! For me, Dvorak's quartets are magnificent, full of great melodies, endless ideas, tension, pathos, vitality and often very reflective. Ever since I bought that Panocha set many years ago I've been a big fan of Dvorak's invention. An underrated genius.


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## Allegro Con Brio

What is there to say about Dvořák (blasted diacriticals!) that hasn’t been said before? I know of few other composers whose music sounds so fresh, sincere, and honest. His love for folk tunes bespeaks to me a warm humanity that fuses the craftsmanship and technique of the classical music tradition with the heartfelt communicative purity of “vernacular” music. In this way I think he serves as an ideal introduction to classical music for the uninitiated. Shockingly enough considering he is one of my top 10 composers, I had not heard this quartet before today, and I can now say that I believe that it is truly one of his masterpieces in any genre. Along with the last three symphonies, cello concerto, and the second piano quintet, it seems to represent a pinnacle of what he was trying to do. I don’t understand why it is not his most popular quartet rather than the “American,” which is nice but IMO lacks the depth of the 10th, 13th, and 14th. Like others I find the slow movement to be especially striking and achingly beautiful; the main theme reminds me of an American hymn or spiritual and in fact the whole movement is very similar to the Largo of the 9th symphony. This might be weird, but I detect some traces of Mozart in the finale with a witty nonchalance, brief dark harmonic turns, and some passages that remind me of the Figaro overture. I will say that if D has one compositional weakness, it’s that he’s not very concise; preferring to spread his melodic development over long periods. This can sometimes frustrate me. But this quartet made me smile at several points due to its sheer liveliness, creativity, naturalness, and beauty. And if I get that reaction from music, that’s a mark of a great work for me.

I’ll be back later this week with some comments on recordings as I’ve only heard the 80’s Panocha so far.


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## Helgi

Glad to hear that the piece is new to some of you — I was worried that you’d all played it to shreds already.

For me it’s holding up very well to repeated listening. The first movement is the first to wear thin for me I guess, but then it just keeps getting better and better all the way to the end.

What aaaalways gets me are the shifts of mood in the third movement, when that wistful melody comes in. Just beautiful.


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## StevehamNY

Helgi said:


> Glad to hear that the piece is new to some of you - I was worried that you'd all played it to shreds already.
> 
> For me it's holding up very well to repeated listening. The first movement is the first to wear thin for me I guess, but then it just keeps getting better and better all the way to the end.
> 
> What aaaalways gets me are the shifts of mood in the third movement, when that wistful melody comes in. Just beautiful.


Helgi, this piece isn't totally new to me -- I know I've heard it before and I do own two recordings, for God's sake. But I think I was focused on the famous 12th on both of those CDs and honestly that particular piece still doesn't completely bowl me over. The 13th, on the other hand, has really gotten through to me now that I've given it a real chance. (Same for the 10th and 14th, and I imagine that trend will continue, maybe even the 12th when I come back to it.)

Something similar happened with the Berg piece, and then the Martinu. (Didn't have to happen with the DSCH because I was already there.) With a thousand musical choices immediately available, it's so easy for my mind to skim right over the surface of everything, never really taking the time to patiently settle in and absorb one specific work. That kind of musical ADD is bad enough for rock music or jazz -- but for music with this much depth and complexity it means I can end up missing out on so much. The incredible value of this forum is that it compels me to take the much-needed time and attention to make this "Dvorak 13" week for example, and then by extension the rest of his quartets. (And even beyond that, as much as I remain somewhat allergic to the big "public" symphonies written by pretty much anybody ever. I'm just so much more inclined to the more intimate "private" quartets right now. Which is an odd thing to admit on a classical music forum, but there it is.)

Anyway, thanks for pointing me to another composer's work that I might not have had the chance to fully appreciate!


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## HenryPenfold

Not new to me, but for some reason it always gets 'leap-frogged!' I love the 12th and when I'm done with that I jump over the 13th and take in the 14th! I've given it a good concentrated listen today, that coincided with a most enjoyable walk in the forest.

I like the idea that when Dvorak wrote the 13th he'd just returned from the US and was euphoric at being back in his homeland, a euphoria that apparently took a long time to dissipate!. This joy, one might argue, is palpable in the music.

On my first proper listen I would say thanks to Helgi for identifying this work as this week's focus and acknowledge that it is an absolute masterpiece. A mature work that contains much of what is the best in Dvorak.

I wouldn't say I've yet completely grasped it's architecture, never mind its nuances, but I look forward to doing so during the rest of the week. I tend to stick with recordings that I have in my library when it comes to the pursuits in this thread and I only have one performance, by the Stamitz Quartet, which I am very happy with (from that famous Brilliant Classics Czech box). I'm not going to worry too much about comparative recordings, I'm going to focus on the music itself.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Not new to me, but for some reason it always gets 'leap-frogged!' I love the 12th and when I'm done with that I jump over the 13th and take in the 14th! I've given it a good concentrated listen today, that coincided with a most enjoyable walk in the forest.
> 
> I like the idea that when Dvorak wrote the 13th he'd just returned from the US and was euphoric at being back in his homeland, a euphoria that apparently took a long time to dissipate!. This joy, one might argue, is palpable in the music.
> 
> On my first proper listen I would say thanks to Helgi for identifying this work as this week's focus and acknowledge that it is an absolute masterpiece. A mature work that contains much of what is the best in Dvorak.
> 
> I wouldn't say I've yet completely grasped it's architecture, never mind it's nuances, but I look forward to doing so during the rest of the week. I tend to stick with recordings that I have in my library when it comes to the pursuits in this thread and I only have one performance, by the Stamitz Quartet, which I am very happy with (from that famous Brilliant Classics Czech box). I'm not going to worry too much about comparative recordings, I'm going to focus on the music itself.


Architecturally I find the 13th to be highly symphonic in nature. The opening movement, as someone has already mentioned, is possibly the weakest (but let's face it, it's still damn good). The adagio almost sounds like it was scored for a complete string section at times and can feel like an early model for Barber's adagio, with searingly beautiful mournfulness. The scherzo is intriguingly short, punchy and bubbles along and then that final movement (my favourite) is imbued with mood changes and a restless atmosphere that fluctuates between joy and wistful romance (that's how I hear it). Played as some do, it remains one of my favourite Dvorak quartet movements. The very best recordings really capture the different emotions in the final movement the best. I always feel that the first minute is paramount in setting the tone. For example, contrasting two performances like the (new ) Vlach and the Ragazze quartets, one of these has very less dynamic shading and fails to capture the bucolic joy whilst the other handles these emotional peaks and troughs with consummate ease.


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## Merl

I've listened to the last few I wanted to, today, and I'll comment in my final summation but there's one I'm not sure about. It's a splendid performance, with a really lovely warmth in the cello and gorgeous recording but it's played as a Beethoven quartet. Nothing wrong there but this is Dvorak. However, what it misses in 'Czechness' it makes up for in ensemble. The *Vogler* Quartet play this so well its hard not to love it. Is it Dvorak? Hmm. Is it Dvorak via Beethoven? Whatever, its a very different, broader, darker reading than others but somehow it works. I just don't know where to put it in my round-up. I'll listen again in a bit and decide. Just when you think you've heard it all someone throws a curveball. Thanks Voglers!


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## StevehamNY

Merl, I don't want to step on your upcoming list, but I'd be very interested to know, after you reveal your picks for the 13th, which complete set of Dvorak's quartets you would recommend. I think I *probably* already know the answer, based on your past comments here. But maybe that's changed recently. Or maybe it's become more complicated, with certain recordings demanding a split between earlier vs. later, etc. 

As you can tell from this question, I'm becoming a big fan of the whole cycle (you're absolutely right when you use the word "underrated"), and I do believe my credit card will be seeing some action this week.

And thanks again, Helgi!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, I don't want to step on your upcoming list, but I'd be very interested to know, after you reveal your picks for the 13th, which complete set of Dvorak's quartets you would recommend. I think I *probably* already know the answer, based on your past comments here. But maybe that's changed recently. Or maybe it's become more complicated, with certain recordings demanding a split between earlier vs. later, etc.
> 
> As you can tell from this question, I'm becoming a big fan of the whole cycle (you're absolutely right when you use the word "underrated"), and I do believe my credit card will be seeing some action this week.
> 
> And thanks again, Helgi!


Steve, I'll actually answer that question before I say which recordings I like the most for this quartet as that's the difference. Its like recommending individual Beethoven symphony performances v recommending a Beethoven symphony cycle. What I recommend as a set won't necessarily be echoed in individual releases. I have the main 3 sets complete (Panocha, Prague, Stamitz) and the 'budget' Vlach (Naxos) recordings. I've always championed the Panocha set (I think that's what you're getting at, Steve) but I really enjoy the others too. They all have their merits. There are differences and I'll try to point these out below but price is going to be a consideration as all of these sets are expensive. It also depends stylistically what you want. Remember there are generalised comments and don't particularly relate to specific performances

Panocha - Ive always made no bones about my slight preference for this set. It's generally excellently played, well-recorded, very consistently high standard ensemble and very few people dont rate it. I have no 'allegiances' to it but I rate it highly and you will rarely hear a bad word against it. Mostly stylistically their cycle is defined by beauty of tone, perfect intonation, and invigorating rhythms. On the negative side some people think it's a little lighter in places, less Czech and rustic and maybe too slick. Remember these are just generalisations.
Stamitz - I've always enjoyed the Stamitz cycle a great deal too. It's a fine one and quite different from the Panocha. As a generalisation, the Stamitz quartet play with a kind of old-world dignity, warmth and grace but they can also be quite bucolic in their vision. Their ensemble playing isn't as technically immaculate as the Panochas but some people prefer that. The sound is generally very good across the set and the only negative comments against the set is that some prefer more attack and bite and quicker speeds.
Prager (Prague) - the oldest set and the last one I got. Its another fine cycle but stylistically different again. The Prague quartet play with a very fluid and natural Czech charm. They excel in providing very cohesive performances that aren't afraid to throw in vibrato when necessary. The only negatives here are for some the harsher analogue sound, particularly noticeable on headphones, grates after a while for some (but others prefer that analogue sound about these recordings) . Another criticism I've heard (but not really investigated) is that they "avoid pianissimos". I've not checked that one out yet so it may be utter crap. Its a really well played cycle and they play with intermittent fire and charm.

I'm not sure but the Vlach and Vogler sets aren't complete (correct me if I'm wrong - the Vlachs haven't done SQ2 or SQ4) ). I'm only just starting to listen to the Voglers on Spotify and they sound impressive. I have most/all of the (new) Vlach recordings and only got the last few a few months back, so I'm still forming my opinions on those. As a whole they are very good too with a bit of a retro feel to rhem but some say that quality-wise they are less consistent (I'll be commenting on this during my round up and perhaps in the future for Dvorak reviews). Another thing mentioned with the Vlach Naxos discs is that some of the recording venues affects the sound adversely (again ill be investigating this more in later Dvorak reviews).

There are lots of partial sets (I'd love to hear all the old Vlach recordings for Supraphon but only some are available to listen to and the rest woefully OOP last time I looked) but as you were discussing complete sets that's all I wanted to say. I would say, if you have a streaming service, go away and listen to each of the artists in a late and an early quartet and see which you prefer the sound of. As I said, they ALL have their merits and you won't be displeased with any of those sets. I don't know which is currently the cheaper to download / buy on cd but that will be a consideration too. At the moment I have a preference for the Panocha set but that may change. Certainly others can be better in individual quartets (as we've already discovered here) but for consistency of sound and recordings they just have an edge for me but I wouldn't argue with anyone championing any of the other sets as they are fine too. Hope that helps.

PS. These are my Naxos discs for the incomplete (?) Vlach cycle. I'm missing vol. 8 on cd (but have it digitally)


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## mparta

I got this part of the set because i didn't know the early works.

I didn't know this group. Finally got to Death and the Maiden this morning. Very fine, very pleased, probably get the second volume. I think I had heard praise for the Auryn here, so thanks for that.

Sorry it's so small, it's volume 1 of the Schubert quartets.


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## HenryPenfold

I've been listening to the Stamitz from the off, and now switched to Panocha for the time being. I'm becoming very convinced that this work is a masterpiece. It is a glorious example of the late Dvorak compositional style that exemplifies the late romantic musical syntax that he perfected.

It's a long work, and given the comments about the (slightly shorter) DSCH StQt 4, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this.

Having now familiarised myself with the architecture, I'm enjoying focusing on the individual movements. Unlike some, I really enjoy the first movement, without qualification. I really like the way the second movement totally changes the mood - quite a shift, in my view. I've not compassed the third movement yet, but I'm excited by the very positive comments about it.

It feels like this is going to be along listen that I'm already savouring!


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## StevehamNY

Merl, thank you for the thorough survey of the complete cycles! I think the Panocha will be heading my way. 

(I'll be interested to see how they stack up this week, though. Something tells me that, as highly as you regard them for 1-14, they're not going to be the absolute best for 13. Maybe bronze or silver, but not gold. Heading to Ladbrokes to get my wager down.)

And HP, if you switched over to the Panocha after being fully immersed in the Stamitz, I'll be interested to hear your comparison. Maybe I'm just finally developing my own critical ear, but in this particular quartet I'm really hearing the difference between one account versus the other.


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## Merl

OK, so another week and anotger SQ. Thoroughly enjoyed reacquainting myself with this glorious quartet. As usual here's my thoughts.

Recommended (all excellent recordings) 

Cypress
Alban Berg
Guarneri
Wihan
Panocha (2008 Camerata) 
Emerson 
Stamitz
Vlach (Supraphon) 
Bennewitz
Chilingirian
Audubon
Pacifica
Talich
Vogler

*Highly recommended*

*Vlach (Naxos) *- the (new) Vlach's recordings are supposedly a bit hit or miss but they nailed their 13th. Listen to how wistfully they play the slower section of the finale and you'll know what I mean. First rate sound too. Possibly their best Dvorak performance and an equally fine American Quartet accompanying it. 
*Prague* - possibly my favourite performance of the Prague quartet's Dvorak cycle. Lots of old school charm and slightly heavier on the vibrato but they dispatch each movement so beautifully it's impossible not to love it. Lovely sense of forward momentum I. 
*Pavel Haas* - I asked in the last quartet review if this quartet ever do anything badly? The answer seems to be "no" as this is majestic. Recording, ensemble and performance are as good as you could wish .
*Panocha (1992 Supraphon) *- the Panochas convince from the off and play with a carefree feeling that has an organic flow and fine rhythms. A very fine recording. 
*Artemis* - firm, well-defined reading caught in glorious sound. Very similar in realisation to the Artemis' superb Schubert quartets and just as convincing.

*Top Picks*









*Tetzlaff et al *- Live recording from Spannungen Festival 2008
A scratch team of Antje Weithaas, Christian Tetzlaff, Gustav Rivinius and Rachel Roberts laid down this absolutely riveting Dvorak 13th at the 2008 Festival and its an absolute corker of a performance that brings the live audience to its feet. I don't know whether it's the excitement of the live recording or the brilliance of Tetzlaff's playing and the spirited accompaniment but this one ticked all the boxes for me.









*Prazak* - another ensemble who rarely do much wrong and they're firmly in their element in Dvorak here. Their slow movement is to die for but elsewhere they are sublime too and the contemplative slower section of the final movement is captivating. Closely miked recording but that just adds to the excitement.


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> And HP, if you switched over to the Panocha after being fully immersed in the Stamitz, I'll be interested to hear your comparison. Maybe I'm just finally developing my own critical ear, but in this particular quartet I'm really hearing the difference between one account versus the other.


Well, you couldn't have asked a better question!

I was so taken by the Panocha that I have bought a download of 10-14 plus Cypresses - "Dvorak, The Essential String Quartets" from Qobuz for a very wallet-friendly £7.99.

I also streamed the Pavel Haas alongside the Stamitz and Panocha in order to decide how I was going to augment my paltry Dvorak string quartet collection and very much preferred the latter; it's the drive, rhythm and forward propulsion of the music that really grabbed me. That's to say nothing of the crisp attack, and bags of bucolic, dance flavours!

I was blown away!

And the nearly 38.5 minutes simply flies by - I was surprised to see that it is one of the longer performances.

The Haas are very good, but a little academic for me. You can get their recording of 12 & 13 for just £5.59 from Qobuz.


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## HenryPenfold

Just seen Merl's round-up - I'm quite keen on Christian Tetzlaff as a violinist (esp. in Bartok) and so the quartet also caught my eye earlier, but I've not listened. Looks like one to go for .......


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## StevehamNY

Three covers that I believe serve this week's quartet well, in very different ways:


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## StevehamNY

And then there are these:








"GUYS, if you're doing Abbey Road you need EVEN SPACING! And for the last time, one of you has to be BAREFOOT, dammit!"








"Twilight, Breaking Dawn" Bonus Soundtrack: Music from the Forest Wedding of Edward and Bella








Nothing evokes 19th Century Prague like a walk along the Santa Monica Pier
(slightly redeemed by only ruining their concert clothes and not their instruments)


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## Allegro Con Brio

^For some reason in the Guarneri and Emerson pictures I get the impression of Jehovah's Witnesses. And we can't forget the Wister Quartet emulating a 1970s family photo:


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^For some reason in the Guarneri and Emerson pictures I get the impression of Jehovah's Witnesses. And we can't forget the Wister Quartet emulating a 1970s family photo:


Photo Credit: Olan Mills Portrait Studio, Ferndale Shopping Plaza, Bellmawr, PA


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## Burbage

It's Friday. So here's something:

The 1890s were a productive time for chamber music. Or, at least, so it seems to us, listening to what various publishers, performers and promoters have managed to immortalise. That said, it's only the third most popular decade of our journey so far (pipped slightly by the 1820s and comfortably by the 1910s), in joint place with the 1890s, 1940s, 1960s and, of all dear sweet things, the 1970s. Perhaps it's too soon.

Still, as we are where we are, the 1890s were where they are, and there we find Dvorak, famous on both sides of the Atlantic, turning 54 and returning to his lavishly-converted sheep barn at Vysoka. Someone, someday, will have to write a book about the animal-shelters the great composers have lived and worked in. But I digress.

It wasn't unusual for Dvorak to return to the fold. He'd done that every summer while he'd been in New York. But this time he didn't intend to go back again. Because, as he explained in a letter to his sponsors, written from a safe distance, his wife was unhappy and sad and his children were ill. Or, at least, they had been ill, or might be ill, and the childcare might have fallen through or, less diplomatically, they'd decided "we canot leave our children to foreign people which we don't know and which cannot be relyed upon". There's a sense, possibly familiar to some of us, of "It isn't you, it's me. But not really." And rightly so. His sponsors had run out of money and had chiselled at his salary and, in those days, much as now, the rich and famous didn't have to put up with employers who played bait-and-switch with their contracts. So he didn't.

Now, I'm told, he was back in Czechoslovakia, where he could watch familiar trains and tickle his pigeons and potter about, ignoring his children, thinking of musical ideas. And, during this time, an idea for a quartet emerged. He'd done a dozen before, so he knew a good idea when he thought of it and, though he was already working on another, he seems to have cheerfully put that to one side.

So I've been wondering why he did that? Why didn't he simply skip to the 14th, as a prudent architect might? Or just make the 13th the 14th, and confuse another generation of publishers?

It's possible that he just got stuck, or found the new ideas more coherent. Or maybe he just felt like it. There doesn't seem to have any recipient in mind, nor was anyone clamouring for it. As far as I can tell, the ideas had come to him and he'd sketched them out, and he liked them so much that he set to work and had them done in a month. Fair enough. It's exactly the sort of thing he would do and, compared with some composers I'm learning not to mention, Dvorak wasn't afraid of having fun.

Whatever the motivation, there's a lot in this piece to hear and, thanks to IMSLP, to see. At first glance, it looks challenging to play. There are bits marked 'spiccato', some tricksy rhythms, and bariolage and triple- and quadruple-stops. It doesn't look like something aimed at companionable amateurs so much as dedicated professionals and, unless I'm very wrong, talented professionals, too. All the string quartets are challenging, though the 12th looks more easily reachable than others, in line with his writing for orchestra, which gets me wondering what he thought of New York musicians. But again, I digress.

The word I've been looking for is equitable. It's a piece that's very even-handed, and relies on seamless ensemble work as the chameleon 'hauptstimme' slithers quietly from stave to stave, a joyous, iridescent thing, but a fragile one, too, vulnerable to showboating. Happily, I've heard only a little of that, either because we live in a golden age of enlightened quartettery, or engineers can fix things. And that, delightfully, results in recordings that highlight the personalities of different quartets with some precision. And so to the important bit.

It seems I've got three recordings of this, bar any I've lost. The Emersons, I find, take a nicely calculated Wagnerian line, ferreting out the motifs, while others (the Pavel Haas Quartet), seem to take a more impressionistic approach, leaving the listener to find what they can. The Panochas, who I've not known for very long, seem to find a middle way, which is odd, as in some respects they out-Emerson the Emersons, being almost preciously careful in some respects. But, like the Haas, they're not entirely respectful, and nicely communicate the fun Dvorak must have had in writing this. And, as quartets go, it is immense fun - it's a grand, intricate game of hunt-the-lady, using the bare minimum of equipment to continually unsettle and reassure the hapless listener who can only sit and wonder how it's done.


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## Malx

Another great choice and like others have mentioned Dvorak's Quartets are opening up for me as a collection of exquiste compositions - how have I managed to virtually ignore them for so many years??
I only have the Panocha Quartet on my shelves but supplemented that recording, earlier in the week, by streaming the Wiham, Pavel Haas and Vlach (Naxos) recordings via Qobuz. I was hoping to be able to return to them later in the week but other duties have restricted my listening time significantly.
Conclusions based on my earlier listening is that this quartet in some respects reminds me of the Shosty 2 we listened to last week - the symphonic length and scale of the piece in particular. Overall I am happy with the Panocha as they seem to tread a middle ground, not too rustic nor too aggressive in performance. Of the others I listened to the Vlach recording struck me as a bit more earthy but not overly so, the Wihan (second recording as they recorded this quartet twice) were perfectly good but just didn't get to the soul of the piece for me, finally the Pavel-Haas were impressive, _but _ if I may be a little controversial here - was I impressed by the technical attributes of the playing and recording that were perhaps too new and shiny if you get my drift? a bit like being impressed by a new pair of speakers in a hifi demo but then finding them difficult to live with long term. I just felt I was missing something.
I'll happily stick with my Panocha recording for now.


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## Helgi

Lots of interesting observations this week, and a pleasant surprise that the 13th turned out to be somewhat of a sleeper.



Merl said:


> *Top Picks*
> 
> View attachment 154028
> 
> 
> *Tetzlaff et al *- Live recording from Spannungen Festival 2008
> A scratch team of Antje Weithaas, Christian Tetzlaff, Gustav Rivinius and Rachel Roberts laid down this absolutely riveting Dvorak 13th at the 2008 Festival and its an absolute corker of a performance that brings the live audience to its feet. I don't know whether it's the excitement of the live recording or the brilliance of Tetzlaff's playing and the spirited accompaniment but this one ticked all the boxes for me.
> 
> View attachment 154027
> 
> 
> *Prazak* - another ensemble who rarely do much wrong and they're firmly in their element in Dvorak here. Their slow movement is to die for but elsewhere they are sublime too and the contemplative slower section of the final movement is captivating. Closely miked recording but that just adds to the excitement.


Ah! Two I haven't heard yet. I was worried you were going to pick the Prazak as now I will have to go hunt for a copy.









:tiphat:


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## SearsPoncho

Helgi said:


> Lots of interesting observations this week, and a pleasant surprise that the 13th turned out to be somewhat of a sleeper.
> 
> Ah! Two I haven't heard yet. I was worried you were going to pick the Prazak as now I will have to go hunt for a copy.
> 
> View attachment 154057
> 
> 
> :tiphat:


Helgi,

I've been looking for that book. Where did you get it? Any discounts if you "know" the author?


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## Helgi

It's a hot item, out of print and fetching hundreds of dollars on eBay


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## Merl

That had me in stitches, Helgi. Brilliant photoshopping (or does it really exist)?

Hahaha. All you guys crack me up with your posts. I love this thread at the moment. It's got such a great atmosphere and silliness just makes it even better. :lol: Keep up the great work, everyone. :tiphat:


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## StevehamNY

Helgi said:


> Ah! Two I haven't heard yet. I was worried you were going to pick the Prazak as now I will have to go hunt for a copy.
> 
> View attachment 154057
> 
> 
> :tiphat:


As the cover guy, I have to say that's the finest work I've seen in a long time!


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> As the cover guy, I have to say that's the finest work I've seen in a long time!


It was so perfectly done that I completely fell for it. I had not heard of the Penguin guide before and thought this was a genuine product. I even googled Merl's Guide to order a copy.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I have a spare copy of Merl's guide if anyone is interested. $1000 paypal FF. 

On topic, I haven't had a ton of time of late for detailed listening as spring is here and I'm trying to get my home projects going before the wilderness consumes my house. That said, this was a fabulous pick and I enjoyed the Pavel Haas and the Panocha immensely.


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## Helgi

FastkeinBrahms said:


> It was so perfectly done that I completely fell for it. I had not heard of the Penguin guide before and thought this was a genuine product. I even googled Merl's Guide to order a copy.




It's already in high demand, Merl - go write a book proposal!


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## Merl

Helgi said:


> It's already in high demand, Merl - go write a book proposal!


If I had the musical theory vocabulary and the time I'd consider it. Lol. I'm happy just posting here at the moment. I'm sure no one would be interested in my inane unmusical, Manchester-housing-estate ramblings.


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## Carmina Banana

I have always connected emotionally with Dvorak and this quartet is no exception. This music goes right to my heart. I don’t know why and I don’t care. Whenever I am in the mood for some good, honest emotions I head for Dvorak. My most recent listen was the Vogler and it was blissful. I would say they are more on the elegant side.

A couple observations about this piece:
Were I to criticize at all, I might say that there are some passages in the first movement that seem “over-written” a bit. Dvorak and Brahms both had a way of writing thick textures with complex polyrhythms. When you step and listen, however, you just hear the effect—the forest, not the leaves, in other words. I’ll have to say there are a couple places in this first movement where I can’t help but hear the leaves. As Burbage noted, It is a difficult piece, but it also sounds difficult. And awkward. 

The beautiful second movement strikes me as an example of something that I associate with late romantic composers like Wagner. Wagner took a moment like the ending of Tristan und Isolde and made it last for twenty minutes. Dvorak does something similar, allowing to wallow in a mood until we have finally had enough.

It is amazing that this music was written on the doorstep of the twentieth century. 
Dvorak found a way of writing that was somewhat new, I suppose, in terms of exploiting instruments, evoking moods and flitting from key to key with surprising freedom, but I don’t think he forged new paths like many of his contemporaries. I wonder if, in a way, folk music is a ticket out of the morass of musical “progress.” This seemed to be way out for many composers. Composers like Copland, who dabbled in very complex dissonant music, then turned to folk music and had success with Old American Songs, Billy the Kid, etc. Dvorak seemed to take it a step further. It is like he adopted folk music as his language. 

Did he really write this in less than a month? I don’t know if I could physical copy the score with a fountain pen in that amount of time, let alone think about what I was writing.


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## Helgi

Merl said:


> If I had the musical theory vocabulary and the time I'd consider it. Lol. I'm happy just posting here at the moment. I'm sure no one would be interested in my inane unmusical, Manchester-housing-estate ramblings.


Dare I say what just came to mind: the Karl Pilkington of classical music :lol:

Your Manc ramblings are most appreciated.

I've just been listening to Tetzlaff and co. Such an exciting (and risky?) performance, and well recorded - it has a wonderful physical dimension to it. I had the thought sometime during the week that this quartet calls for a bit of stomping!


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## Merl

Helgi said:


> Dare I say what just came to mind: the Karl Pilkington of classical music :lol:
> 
> Your Manc ramblings are most appreciated.
> 
> I've just been listening to Tetzlaff and co. Such an exciting (and risky?) performance, and well recorded - it has a wonderful physical dimension to it. I had the thought sometime during the week that this quartet calls for a bit of stomping!


Thank you, Helgi. As regards the Tetzlaff recording it is edge of the seat stuff but Tetzlaff's playing is just sensational. Rachel Roberts of the Dantes, Antje Weithaas of the Arcantos and cello journeyman Professor Gustav Rivinius complement this dream team magnificently. That's a special recording. Thanks to Spotify for giving me the chance to savour it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I find it a bit difficult to summarize the four performances that I heard this week. I guess it's one of those works that I like so much that I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to finding negative aspects. However, I do think that the Panocha on Supraphon and the Prague are two superb options. The Alban Berg play beautifully and securely as is their custom, but IMO failed to really pierce the heart of the music, while the Pavel Haas, surprisingly enough, did not impress me as greatly as their Schubert, Shostakovich, and Prokofiev have. They are bit more "no-nonsense" here and adopt a swifter tempo particularly in the slow movement, and though it's an enjoyable recording with their entirely unique playing style; again, it didn't penetrate as deep as I'd like. The Panocha have a delightful, muscular, earthy style. They aren't sentimental and don't indulge in too much vibrato and rubato, but they phrase beautifully and have a real feel for the idiom; especially in the scherzo and trio, which is just ear-ticklingly beguiling under their bows. But the Prague have the most distinctive approach. Their playing has that unmistakable Czech "tang" and their tone is on the leaner/dryer side (probably enhanced by the recording acoustic) but they still muster plenty of feeling and expression where it's needed while pressing forward with irresistable vigor elsewhere. Phrases are a bit shorter and attacks strong, but this helps to emphasize the "dance" aspects. Perhaps they are a bit too aggressive at times - for example, their slow movement is positively lovely but the big climax, which sounds to me like a gospel choir being roused to full volume, fell very flat - but the flavor of the performance won it for me. They're singing and dancing along with Dvorak, having the time of their lives.

One of my favorite things about this weekly exercise is that it has deepened my knowledge of different approaches to the process of music-making. Hearing so many different musical idioms from all periods, performed by so many different ensembles with different ideas about what it means to do music, has enriched my knowledge. I've come to recognize various stylistic mannerisms, tone qualities, details of phrasing and attack, and how such things as tempo choice and romantic vs. classical conceptions contribute to the effectiveness of the final product. In essence, spending so much time studying one single genre/format of classical music has given me a new appreciation for the power of creativity and diverse methods of artistic communication, as manifested through composers and performers alike. The inherent limitations of 16 wires being scrubbed with four bows demands imagination of the highest order, which is why I think that the String Quartet is one of the peaks of human imagination and, therefore, executing such repertoire is one of the most gratifying challenges that performers can undergo. Brilliant invention within strict parameters is a high ideal of art and performance for me. Yes, this is the true reason why online forums exist!

Anyway, enough of that sappiness. *Carmina Banana*, looking forward to seeing your pick for next week!


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## Carmina Banana

The moment has finally arrived. 
I have always known it would be Beethoven because they are endlessly fascinating for me. I guess any one I choose will have many, many options for recordings, but there is no way around it. I don't plan to do any extensive survey, but I would like to check out one or two recordings that others like maybe find a new favorite. 
My first thought was a late quartet, but I see that two of those have already been done. Then I thought, why not the first quartet. Well, since we will probably never get through all or even most of Beethoven's 16 (16 and a half?), I might as well go for something really exciting. 
So I am going to go for a great middle period piece:
Quartet opus 59, no. 1 in F major. 
I guess there is a connection to the Dvorak-this quartet actually has a folk music element! 
Here is a link to some basic background, if any wants that:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/nov/05/takacs-quartet-beethoven-razumovsky


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## Allegro Con Brio

If Beethoven had just written the three Razumovsky quartets, I would still count him among the finest composers in the genre. Superb! I have a feeling this one will inspire some especially wonderful discussion.


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## Merl

OMG, this is gonna be a busy week. Better start now. The one I've been listening to today will deffo be in the final reckoning somewhere. Btw, one of my fave SQs and the quartet I probably have most recordings of (silly numbers of LVB SQ cycles).


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## StevehamNY

The first of the quartets written for the good Count Razumovsky himself, Russian Ambassador to Vienna:









(He probably should have been warned about the dangers of running a heating flue from his mansion into a hastily constructed wooden ballroom, but that's another story.)

I've mentioned (and highly recommended) "Beethoven for a Later Age: Living with the String Quartets" by Edward Dusinberre, the replacement first violinist for the Takacs. The book's title comes from Beethoven's famous quote in the face of the fierce criticism these quartets received when first heard:

"This is music for a later age."

I'm glad that the later age has come, and I'm very much looking forward to this week!


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## Helgi

Been away from the Beethoven string quartets for what I'm guessing is a few weeks now. Seems like a long time and I'm itching to get back to them.

I enjoyed the Dusinberre book and would like to read it again, but I went through a brief minimalist lifestyle phase last year and got rid of it!


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## Merl

Just dug my old notebook out with those Beethoven notes from years ago so I have a good starting point so I'll skip-listen there and just check that my thoughts havent changed much since those old blog reviews. I can also discount quite a few recordings I know that don't do 'The Razs' full justice (eg Orford, Miro and that Taneyev recording with the horrendous intonation issues). The key for me with this quartet is the first two movements. I can take a wide range of speeds here (from slow to brisk) but if it starts getting bogged down (especially in the 2nd movement) then all forward momentum is lost and the performance is dead. The Alban Berg's, for example, pace themselves so well in this quartet. If you want to hear an ensemble _not_ doing so then try the Endellions (if I remember rightly). Just looking at my old notes now I made this remark next to the Endellion recording of this one "...sloppy, too light and fuzzy and a clumsy performance". Listening again, obviously my thoughts have hardly changed on this one. What I'm going to do this time for a review is gather together a 30ish shortlist and go from there.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Nice pick. I like that it gives me cause to revisit the wonderful Takacs cycle.


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## SearsPoncho

Oh yeah. The "Eroica" of string quartets.


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## FastkeinBrahms

This piece, which I just listened to played wonderfully by the Artemis Quartett, brightened a grey and rainy Berlin day. What a glorious, glorious work!

Maybe because we did Dvorak last, the beautifully relaxed and highly melodic first movement did remind me a bit of the Czech master. And one feature of the final movement Dvorak also liked to employ: The liveliness quietens down to a lyrical slow progression of chords which seem to congeal into stasis; after that, the final coda almost seems a perfunctory nod to convention.

And the Adagio, oh the Adagio, "das absolute Adagio", indeed. I am not a fan of Adorno, but I wholeheartedly agree with that description.


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## Merl

As there are so many recordings from full cycles and by ensembles who have just recorded the Razs or the middle quartets I'm not putting a list together, this week, of all the recordings available. Most of the cycles are listed over at the Ionarts Beethoven String Quartet blog in chronological order, if you want to do your own investigations, and with the single performances you're looking at closer to 100. I have a lot of notes on all the cycle recordings of each (if I can read my own scrawled writing - I found it a challenge last time) so for me it's just a case of listening to as many of the spare recordings as I can. It's amazing that the Raz quartets got such a negative reaction when they came out. They are all superb but the first of the set is iconic, for me. As I said earlier, I'm only going to focus on those that really float my boat / surprise me as there are so many that are easy to recommend but are bettered elsewhere. Spoiler alert, I may surprise you with some of my picks for this one. My notes are flagging up a glut of recordings by artists who have barely scraped into previous reviews however that's to be expected. Some ensembles play the middle quartets far more successfully than they do the later ones (which are a different beast altogether).

There are two things that I find a little irritating in the 2nd movement, regarding performance style, and this affects at least one ensemble whose middle quartets I really like. Firstly some quartets tend to adopt an overt 'chugga chugga' style in the opening theme. This isn't the Bolero! Tempo isn't an issue here for me but if it's a slower interpretation this can be too pronounced. It's not a dealbreaker but I do find it offputting. When it's combined with a more grievous or tragic interpretation of the 3rd movement it just sounds wrong. Similarly if the ensuing adagio is too miserable (it's meant to be sad and very calm) then the whole thing falls apart.


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## sbmonty

Wow! Dvorak and now Beethoven. Two of my favourite cycles for SQ. The Dvorak experience was great. In addition, I took the opportunity to indulge and familiarize myself with the 9th and 10th with repeated listening. Very enjoyable and thanks for the choice.

I own 5 complete sets of Beethoven. In the past I have listened while reading along to The Beethoven Quartet Companion. Edited by Martin and Winter. Looking forward to more insightful comments again this week. Love this thread!


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## Bwv 1080

Listening to the Auryn Quartet. Oh, bliss, bliss and heaven. I lay all nagoy to the ceiling, my gulliver on my rookers on the pillow, glazzies closed, rot open in bliss, slooshying the sluice of lovely sounds. Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh


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## StevehamNY

Bwv 1080 said:


> Listening to the Auryn Quartet. Oh, bliss, bliss and heaven. I lay all nagoy to the ceiling, my gulliver on my rookers on the pillow, glazzies closed, rot open in bliss, slooshying the sluice of lovely sounds. Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh


I want what he's having.


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## Allegro Con Brio

If I'm not mistaken, Bwv 1080 is referring to a passage from Anthony Burgess's _A Clockwork Orange_


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> If I'm not mistaken, Bwv 1080 is referring to a passage from Anthony Burgess's _A Clockwork Orange_


Damn, you're right! I should have caught that!


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## Bwv 1080

StevehamNY said:


> I want what he's having.


Just some Moloko plus with Drencrum


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## StevehamNY

I just listened to the ABQ play this quartet, and the first movement goes so fast it would have blown my hat off I were wearing one. The esteemed Italianos, by contrast, play the same movement more than two minutes slower. 

Have also re-listened to my Takacs set, of course, as well as checking out the Auryn, Borodin, and Talich. 

And the Vegh (the stereo set reissued on Naive), which for all of its surface flaws is still going with me to the desert island, along with the Takacs if I'm allowed to take two.

Looking forward to hearing the other reviews!


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## Clloydster

Just joining in here. Someone recommend I come check this out. I don't have a lot to add here - my wife bought me a box set of these a while ago by the Takacs quartet. I'm not that familiar with them - but she found it in a store, knew I was listening to more classical and that I liked Beethoven. Where do you start? Any one in particular? I just started playing at the beginning.


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## Merl

Clloydster said:


> Just joining in here. Someone recommend I come check this out. I don't have a lot to add here - my wife bought me a box set of these a while ago by the Takacs quartet. I'm not that familiar with them - but she found it in a store, knew I was listening to more classical and that I liked Beethoven. Where do you start? Any one in particular? I just started playing at the beginning.


Hey Clloydster, probably the best place to start are either the early or the middle quartets. Razumovsky (op. 59)#1, this week's focus quartet, is probably a good one to start with. Lots of melodic invention, banging choons and general loveliness. You're on solid ground with the Takacs quartet recordings. They're a class act. I'd leave the later quartets till you're more familiar with the early ones and the middles, myself, but that's up to you. They're all great. Enjoy your listening. You have a wealth of stuff to go at. If you like Bethoven quartets try Schubert quartets too (especially the late ones) and the Dvorak string quartets (especially #9 onwards). So much wonderful music.


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## Clloydster

Will do. I really like Dvorak's 9th Symphony, so I'll have to listen to his string quartets as well. Don't know how productive a contributor I'll be here. Probably just follow along and try to learn something. My knowledge is pretty much on the level of "ooh, that sounds nice."


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## SearsPoncho

Clloydster said:


> Will do. I really like Dvorak's 9th Symphony, so I'll have to listen to his string quartets as well. Don't know how productive a contributor I'll be here. Probably just follow along and try to learn something. My knowledge is pretty much on the level of "ooh, that sounds nice."


Don't worry about it. I started listening to Beethoven about 33 years ago after renting A Clockwork Orange, and I still "judge" music by the "ooh, that sounds nice" test.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Don't worry about it. I started listening to Beethoven about 33 years ago after renting A Clockwork Orange, and still "judge" music by the "ooh, that sounds nice" test.


Clloydster, just seconding what SP said. I've learned so much from following along here, and I've discovered so much amazing new music that I probably would have passed by just a few months ago.

It's also maybe the most positive and supportive group I've ever seen on the Interwebs.


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## Merl

Clloydster said:


> Will do. I really like Dvorak's 9th Symphony, so I'll have to listen to his string quartets as well. Don't know how productive a contributor I'll be here. Probably just follow along and try to learn something. My knowledge is pretty much on the level of "ooh, that sounds nice."


As others have said we're all basically the same there (ooh, that sounds nice) and if you like Dvorak's 9th symphony you will almost certainly like Dvorak's late quartets and especially the 'American' Quartet (his most famous quartet).


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## BlackAdderLXX

Clloydster said:


> Will do. I really like Dvorak's 9th Symphony, so I'll have to listen to his string quartets as well. Don't know how productive a contributor I'll be here. Probably just follow along and try to learn something. My knowledge is pretty much on the level of "ooh, that sounds nice."


Then it won't just be me. I'm here to listen to music, offer some pedestrian comment and like posts


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## Carmina Banana

Welcome, Clloydster. I am fairly new here myself and I am blown away by the dedication and erudition of some of the contributors. I love hearing all of the different perspectives and I'm sure yours will be as valid as any one else's.
This is a difficult and complex piece to interpret (I will try to put together some of my thoughts about the piece itself a bit later) and, as a result there are many different ways to go with it.
Here are some of my first impressions of recordings:
*Tokyo quartet (their more recent version)*:
Beautiful sound and an elegant, thoughtful performance. There is a dignity and nobility to this version which is, at times, very fitting. 
The scherzo movement is wonderful sneaky and full of character instead of just weird.
The slow movement again, has a quiet dignity.
The finale is exciting but in a more playful way than some groups play it.
Overall, good, clean fun.

*Vlach:*
Why is the first movement so slow? This is bordering on what you might call a good practice tempo. I don't get it.
Slow movement has lots of gooey sliding around as if it were a Bruch concerto.
In the last movement the tempo migrates according to the mood of the performers. I'm not a big fan of this approach, but I will have to admit it kind of works. It makes for an exciting finale.
Overall, this seems like an old school approach and mostly is not my cup of tea.

*Rosalyra*: 
Excellent vigorous 1st movement, strong statements. Lots of stopping before subito pianos. This is an interesting interpretative point. Does one allow for time or not? In this case, it is pretty much inserting a quarter note rest every time. I understand why, but I also can see why it a distortion of the original text. Any one else have ideas on this?
Scherzo was nicely mysterious.
Overall, a very straightforward reading, but not a lot of personality. It is interesting because I listened to this after the Vlach and it was a huge contrast. One is cigars and instincts; the other is metronomes and dissertations. At least, that is my impression after one listen.


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## Malx

Clloydster said:


> Will do. I really like Dvorak's 9th Symphony, so I'll have to listen to his string quartets as well. Don't know how productive a contributor I'll be here. Probably just follow along and try to learn something. My knowledge is pretty much on the level of *"ooh, that sounds nice."*


Love it - never forget that. 
If you don't enjoy the sounds resonating in your head received via the twin receptors either side don't feel obliged to like the music just because someone else suggests you should. By all means listen to recommendations but if its not for you sobeit - we are all different on here but as Steve suggests this is a great thread that accepts all comments with a deal of graceful understanding.


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## Clloydster

Malx said:


> Love it - never forget that.
> If you don't enjoy the sounds resonating in your head received via the twin receptors either side don't feel obliged to like the music just because someone else suggests you should. By all means listen to recommendations but if its not for you sobeit - we are all different on here but as Steve suggests this is a great thread that accepts all comments with a deal of graceful understanding.


Much appreciated.

Just listened to this all the way through - really enjoyed it, I have never heard this piece before. Is it one of his more famous works? I'm mostly familiar with the symphonies and the piano sonatas. I really like the slow third movement - very peaceful.

So how does this work? Relisten to it all week? Get other recordings? That actually won't be too hard - as long as I can find it on Apple Music. Where should I go after the Takacs Quartet recording? I'll see if your recommendations show up there.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Glad you’ve joined in, Clloydster! Each week, a member nominates a quartet to listen to for the week, and throughout the week, we exchange opinions on the music as well as recordings of it. You can listen along however you’d like, and comment as you wish (or not if you’d prefer - we have some “lurkers” here). If you ever get to the point where you’d want to choose a quartet for the group to hear, let me know


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## Merl

Clloydster said:


> .... Where should I go after the Takacs Quartet recording? I'll see if your recommendations show up there.


Try some of the big-hitters of the quartets - the Italiano Quartet and the Alban Berg Quartet. They're not necessarily recommendations from me (or are they ) but they're both well regarded and have a different sound to the Takacs.



Carmina Banana said:


> *Rosalyra*:
> Excellent vigorous 1st movement, strong statements. Lots of stopping before subito pianos. This is an interesting interpretative point. Does one allow for time or not? In this case, it is pretty much inserting a quarter note rest every time. I understand why, but I also can see why it a distortion of the original text. Any one else have ideas on this?
> Scherzo was nicely mysterious.
> Overall, a very straightforward reading, but not a lot of personality. It is interesting because I listened to this after the Vlach and it was a huge contrast. One is cigars and instincts; the other is metronomes and dissertations. At least, that is my impression after one listen.


Interestingly enough I listened to this exact same recording last night and initially the first movement grabbed me and I said "ooh nice" however, after that, it kinda got bogged down and rather mechanical. It wasn't bad but it with other more heartfelt recordings around it would be hard to make it a strong recommendation even if it was decent enough. With so many great ones, though, 'decent enough' isn't good enough here.


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## Bwv 1080

Note that LvB swaps the normal order of the Scherzo and adagio, just like in the 9th symphony. Haydn did this not infrequently. This was also the order for Mozart's C Major Quintet K515. I dont have any sources for this, but it looks like maybe a model Beethoven used for this work:


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> *Vlach:*
> Why is the first movement so slow? This is bordering on what you might call a good practice tempo. I don't get it.


Carmina, I agree with this 100%, but here's the strange thing:

When I listen to the Vlachs play this movement, I think: "Wow, this is so... slow."

When I listen to the Italianos play the same movement (at virtually the same timing), I think: "Wow, this is so... gorgeous."

Is it just the case of a world-class quartet "getting away" with something the other quartet can't? (Although the Vlachs aren't exactly a minor league quartet, I realize.) Does anyone else have the same impression?


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## Bwv 1080

Was trying to find info on the 'theme Russe' (each of the three Rasumovsky qts has one BTW). Apparently it is a folk song titled _Ah, Whether It's My Luck, Such Luck_, but cannot find a recording or any more info


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## Merl

I have yet to play the Vlachs recording (it's been years since I played it) but do remember it was rather slow and I don't have notes on that recording. I know the Itallianos recording very well (it was my first complete set) and agree that their playing is gorgeous. I'll come back to this at the end of the week but agree that the Itallianos do 'get away' with rather broad speeds in their Beethoven and sometimes in comparison their recordings are slow but they play with such unison and style it's hard to slate them. They will be in my final summation but I'm not saying what I think of their Raz1 at the moment other than its at least recommendable.


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## Clloydster

I see two other "Rasumovsky" quartets - are we talking about all three here, or only the first of the three? My recording also has a "Harp" quartet in the middle - is that part of them?


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## Bwv 1080

Clloydster said:


> I see two other "Rasumovsky" quartets - are we talking about all three here, or only the first of the three? My recording also has a "Harp" quartet in the middle - is that part of them?


Just the first, op 59 no 1, but feel free to compare to other works


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I have yet to play the Vlachs recording (it's been years since I played it) but do remember it was rather slow and I don't have notes on that recording. I know the Itallianos recording very well (it was my first complete set) and agree that their playing is gorgeous. I'll come back to this at the end of the week but agree that the Itallianos do 'get away' with rather broad speeds in their Beethoven and sometimes in comparison their recordings are slow but they play with such unison and style it's hard to slate them. They will be in my final summation but I'm not saying what I think of their Raz1 at the moment other than its at least recommendable.


A shameless tease, you are!


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## SearsPoncho

Clloydster, 

We're just a group that likes to listen to string quartets, and if the urge arises, discuss it. You can listen to a quartet once. You can hear the same recording multiple times. You can listen to multiple recordings and compare them. You can read about it. You can use it as a springboard to discover further music by a composer, or even other composers from the nominated composer's country and/or era. You can read what others write and decide if you want to listen to it. You can attend a live performance of the piece, although this is nearly impossible these days. You can look at the score, if that's your thing. You can analyze it. You can purchase a recording of the music. And you can hear it and post, "ooh, that sounds nice," which is a perfectly legitimate response and will be considered a valuable contribution by all members. 

I think the title of this thread is instructive: it's for music lovers, and as a music lover you should feel free to do whatever you want with each week's nominated quartet. Most importantly, do not enter this with any inferiority complex; this should be a joyous exercise for music lovers. That's it.


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## SearsPoncho

Glad to see Carmina giving some love to the Tokyo String Quartet, which has been my default recording since it came out in 2005(?). I also enjoy the Quartetto Italiano. I have their complete set. I believe the Q.I.'s Beethoven, or at least the Raz. quartets have been re-released in HD or SACD. About time. 

I called this the "Eroica" of string quartets because this was the revolutionary game-changer, just like Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. The canvas is larger. The switch from the objective (this is great music or beautiful music) to the subjective, where one feels the composer's, or one's own, personal struggle being played out in a musical drama, would eventually lead to Romanticism. No one would ever confuse this for Mozart or Haydn. Even though he uses traditional classical forms, he starts tweaking them. I don't believe the exposition in the 1st movement is repeated. Movements 2-4 all sound like they could be in sonata form, or some alteration of it, which is unusual for the middle two movements of a classical-era piece. Etc., etc.., ok, I gotta go.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Clloydster,
> 
> We're just a group that likes to listen to string quartets, and if the urge arises, discuss it. You can listen to a quartet once. You can hear the same recording multiple times. You can listen to multiple recordings and compare them. You can read about it. You can use it as a springboard to discover further music by a composer, or even other composers from the nominated composer's country and/or era. You can read what others write and decide if you want to listen to it. You can attend a live performance of the piece, although this is nearly impossible these days. You can look at the score, if that's your thing. You can analyze it. You can purchase a recording of the music. And you can hear it and post, "ooh, that sounds nice," which is a perfectly legitimate response and will be considered a valuable contribution by all members.
> 
> I think the title of this thread is instructive: it's for music lovers, and as a music lover you should feel free to do whatever you want with each week's nominated quartet. Most importantly, do not enter this with any inferiority complex; this should be a joyous exercise for music lovers. That's it.


Love everything SP says here, although this would be me trying to read any music score, ever:










(Sorry, apparently posting too many GIFs is a little-known side-effect from the COVID vaccine?)


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hello again! I've been busy practicing Albeniz on my guitar and listening to electronic music, but got fed up. For this weeks quartet I was looking at different recordings and put on the Kuijken Quartet. They are now an even bigger family with brothers and daughters! The Kuijken brothers were my first introduction to HIP. I love them all! I would like to hear what you guys will say about this! I think it is really good. There's not much reverb, so kind of dry. I think that brings clarity to their nuances in articulation and dynamics. I vaguely remember hearing this quartet drenched in cathedral-like reverb...


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Clloydster,
> 
> We're just a group that likes to listen to string quartets, and if the urge arises, discuss it. You can listen to a quartet once. You can hear the same recording multiple times. You can listen to multiple recordings and compare them. You can read about it. You can use it as a springboard to discover further music by a composer, or even other composers from the nominated composer's country and/or era. You can read what others write and decide if you want to listen to it. You can attend a live performance of the piece, although this is nearly impossible these days. You can look at the score, if that's your thing. You can analyze it. You can purchase a recording of the music. And you can hear it and post, "ooh, that sounds nice," which is a perfectly legitimate response and will be considered a valuable contribution by all members.
> 
> I think the title of this thread is instructive: it's for music lovers, and as a music lover you should feel free to do whatever you want with each week's nominated quartet. Most importantly, do not enter this with any inferiority complex; this should be a joyous exercise for music lovers. That's it.


What a brilliant post, SP. This is one thread where I don't feel there's any elitism . Posts like this are the reason why.


----------



## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Hello again! I've been busy practicing Albeniz on my guitar and listening to electronic music, but got fed up. For this weeks quartet I was looking at different recordings and put on the Kuijken Quartet. They are now an even bigger family with brothers and daughters! The Kuijken brothers were my first introduction to HIP. I love them all! I would like to hear what you guys will say about this! I think it is really good. There's not much reverb, so kind of dry. I think that brings clarity to their nuances in articulation and dynamics. I vaguely remember hearing this quartet drenched in cathedral-like reverb...


It's a performance I like but to what degree I'm not saying :devil:. I will be discussing this at a later date too.


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## starthrower

I gave this one a listen by Quatuor Ébène. A wonderful quartet and the Adagio is sublime! Did the Russian ambassador fully appreciate this work? I don't know? Hopefully the finale at the very least. Here's a short analysis I found while searching around.
https://www.confluenceconcerts.ca/new-blog/2020/3/26/the-beethoven-string-quartet-project-op-59-no-1


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## Clloydster

SearsPoncho said:


> Clloydster,
> 
> We're just a group that likes to listen to string quartets, and if the urge arises, discuss it. You can listen to a quartet once. You can hear the same recording multiple times. You can listen to multiple recordings and compare them. You can read about it. You can use it as a springboard to discover further music by a composer, or even other composers from the nominated composer's country and/or era. You can read what others write and decide if you want to listen to it. You can attend a live performance of the piece, although this is nearly impossible these days. You can look at the score, if that's your thing. You can analyze it. You can purchase a recording of the music. And you can hear it and post, "ooh, that sounds nice," which is a perfectly legitimate response and will be considered a valuable contribution by all members.
> 
> I think the title of this thread is instructive: it's for music lovers, and as a music lover you should feel free to do whatever you want with each week's nominated quartet. Most importantly, do not enter this with any inferiority complex; this should be a joyous exercise for music lovers. That's it.


Very much appreciated. I actually tried listening to another recording, the Quarteto Italiano. Slower than the Takacs Quartet, but I think I enjoyed it more. Very beautiful, again, especially in the 3rd movement.

Learning a lot here - hadn't really listened to string quartets before, didn't know how much I would like them.

I noticed through the first 6 pages how a running list was kept - is that still being done, that I could go back and listen to others you all have picked without having to comb through 180+ pages? Don't know how many I'll get through, but I'm always looking for suggestions of things to listen to, and this thread has gotten me interested in string quartets.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here’s an alphabetized list:

Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
Bax - String Quartet No. 1
Beethoven - String Quartets No. 7 “Razumovsky No. 1,” 14, 16
Berg - Lyric Suite
Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
Britten - String Quartet No. 3
Carter - String Quartet No. 3
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 “OpenTime”
Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
Dvořák - String Quartets No. 13, 14
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
Frank - Quijotidas
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
Haydn - String Quartets in G Minor Op. 20/3, F Minor Op. 20/5
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
Ives - String Quartet No. 2
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
Lachenmann - Gran Torso
Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
Lutosławski - String Quartet
Martinů - String Quartet No. 7 “Concerto da Camera"
Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 “Dissonance” 
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 “Kabardinian”
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 “Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory”
Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
Reger - String Quartet No. 4
Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics 
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 
Schubert - String Quartets No. 13 “Rosamunde," 15
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
Shostakovich - String Quartets No. 2, 4, 8
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
Xenakis - Tetras


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## HenryPenfold

As usual, I've been sticking mainly to recordings of the given quartet that I have in my collection. In this case the Emerson Quartet. I have streamed the Quartetto Italiano and shall be acquiring a set of the 'middle quartets' in due course (the only Beethoven I have by the Italiani is the late quartets on Philips). 

I've always enjoyed the Op.59 #1 'Razumovsky' quartet very much indeed, and fully sense the fact that it represents a true departure point in terms of string writing from the 'divertimenti' archetype. Quickly moving on from several listens of this quartet, I've been listening to the Op.95 String Quartet #11 'Quartetto Serioso' an absolutely stunning composition and a definite progeny of LvB's game-changing Razumovsky trilogy.

Interestingly, I have also been giving turntable time to the 4th, 5th and 6th quartets of the late, great Robert Simpson (composer, radio broadcast producer, writer and Nielsen, Bruckner and Beethoven, scholar and authority). Simpson based this trilogy of quartets on the Razumovsky quartets and it makes for a most interesting and rewarding listening experience. He avoids pastiche and reverence and produces stunning music - the sort that any lover of string quartet music would adore, I'm sure.



P.S. It was the Hagen Quartet on Deutsche Grammophon for the 'Quartetto Serioso' and for the Simpson quartets, it was the Delme Quartet on Hyperion.


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## Helgi

I've mostly been listening to the two I have on CD, Quartetto Italiano and Artemis. Worlds apart in terms of tempo, in the first movement at least, but I like both.

The Artemis are very light and joyful, nimble with a kind of nervous intensity — aggressive when called for, but not as aggressive as Ebene or di Cremona (IIRC, it's been a while since I listened to di Cremona).

I've only just started with the stuff I have on hand, and I can already tell that it would take me a lot longer than a week to pick favourites. So many good ones!


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## Clloydster

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Here's an alphabetized list:
> 
> Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
> Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
> Bax - String Quartet No. 1
> Beethoven - String Quartets No. 7 "Razumovsky No. 1," 14, 16
> Berg - Lyric Suite
> Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
> Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
> Britten - String Quartet No. 3
> Carter - String Quartet No. 3
> Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
> Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
> Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime"
> Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
> Dvořák - String Quartets No. 13, 14
> Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
> Frank - Quijotidas
> Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
> Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
> Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
> Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
> Haydn - String Quartets in G Minor Op. 20/3, F Minor Op. 20/5
> Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
> Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
> Ives - String Quartet No. 2
> Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
> Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
> Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
> Lachenmann - Gran Torso
> Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
> Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
> Lutosławski - String Quartet
> Martinů - String Quartet No. 7 "Concerto da Camera"
> Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
> Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
> Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance"
> Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
> Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
> Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
> Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
> Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
> Reger - String Quartet No. 4
> Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
> Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics
> Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
> Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4
> Schubert - String Quartets No. 13 "Rosamunde," 15
> Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
> Shostakovich - String Quartets No. 2, 4, 8
> Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
> Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
> Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
> Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
> Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
> Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
> Xenakis - Tetras


I don't know if I can even pronounce all of these, but I picked a good selection of some of the names I recognized and made a nice playlist in my Apple Music - thanks for giving me hours of listening recommendations. I like to pop on my noise cancelling headphones and sit out back and listen after lunch - at least for now, until summer in Georgia kicks in!


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## Bwv 1080

Clloydster said:


> I don't know if I can even pronounce all of these, but I picked a good selection of some of the names I recognized and made a nice playlist in my Apple Music - thanks for giving me hours of listening recommendations. I like to pop on my noise cancelling headphones and sit out back and listen after lunch - at least for now, until summer in Georgia kicks in!


That's OK, we will give you until Tuesday to listen to all them and catch up


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## FastkeinBrahms

Bwv 1080 said:


> Was trying to find info on the 'theme Russe' (each of the three Rasumovsky qts has one BTW). Apparently it is a folk song titled _Ah, Whether It's My Luck, Such Luck_, but cannot find a recording or any more info


This is what I gleaned from an essay by Damien Sagrillo in German, downloadable online: Beethoven took this from a collection of Russian songs by a Czech scholar called Iwan Pratsch. He chose his Russian themes for each of the three quartets according to their suitability for musical development. The essay shows the original theme, and Beethoven 's, which he quotes literally but transposed it to d minor. Apparently, the authenticity of the Pratsch collection is a bit sketchy. He probably tweaked the tunes, which he provided with an accompaniment.

Btw, just listened to a 1998 recording by the Leipziger Streichquartett, and loved it!


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## Bwv 1080

FastkeinBrahms said:


> This is what I gleaned from an essay by Damien Sagrillo in German, downloadable online: Beethoven took this from a collection of Russland songs by a Czech scholar called Iwan Pratsch. He chose his Russian themes for each of the three quartets according to their suitability for musical development. The essay shows the original theme, and Beethoven 's, which he quotes literally but transposed it to d minor. Apparently, the authenticity of the Pratsch collection is a bit sketchy. He probably tweaked the tunes, which he provided with an accompaniment.
> 
> Btw, just listened to a 1998 recording by the Leipziger Streichquartett, and loved it!


Cool, wonder if this is it - cant read Russian

https://imslp.org/wiki/Sobranie_russkich_narodnych_pěsen_s_ich_golosami_(Pratsch,_Johann_Gottfried)


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## Merl

Luckily i have stacks of notes so im just picking up on the recordings i missed the last time I reviewed these and the spare recordings. Today I listened to the Elias quartet and a few others. The *Elias* recording is incredibly slow (it may be the broadest ive ever heard). Unfortuntely this rules it out as it starts to drag a little (especially in the 3rd movement, which at 15 minutes really pushed my endurance to the max). Such a shame too as its really well played and recorded. I'm also not going to include the *Goldner* recording in my round-up either. It's a little bit plain-faced and not individual enough to warrant it being a firm recommendations. It'sok but no more. The two others i listened to were excellent and have gone straight into my final thoughts (stop being a tease, Merl).


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## FastkeinBrahms

Bwv 1080 said:


> Cool, wonder if this is it - cant read Russian
> 
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Sobranie_russkich_narodnych_pěsen_s_ich_golosami_(Pratsch,_Johann_Gottfried)


I can't open the attachment you sent, and have only a transliteration of the Russian song, which reads: "Akh! talan li mov, talan takoy"


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## Bwv 1080

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I can't open the attachment you sent, and have only a transliteration of the Russian song, which reads: "Akh! talan li mov, talan takoy"


Think there is a separate EU version of IMSLP? Just went there and searched for Iwan (Johann) Pratsch


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## FastkeinBrahms

Maybe, apparently there were several editions of the collection, one from 1790, one from 1806, with several additions.


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## Clloydster

Bwv 1080 said:


> That's OK, we will give you until Tuesday to listen to all them and catch up


I'd better get a move on. The wife will want some of my attention as well (you'd think after 40+ years she'd seen all of me she cared to!) - maybe I can at least make it through the B's?


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## Bwv 1080

Clloydster said:


> I'd better get a move on. The wife will want some of my attention as well (you'd think after 40+ years she'd seen all of me she cared to!) - maybe I can at least make it through the B's?


She will leave you alone if you start with the X's


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## Bwv 1080

Anyone know of a HIP, period instrument recording?


----------



## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Anyone know of a HIP, period instrument recording?


Off the top of my head, no. Quatuor Turner have recorded the 3rd Raz in HIP but not the others. The nearest is probably the Kuijken recording. They're normally an HIP outfit but they play theirs on modern instruments this time but it's very much of an HIP stylee recording otherwise and I recommend that you listen to it, BWV. Otherwise we'll have to wait for more Turner to be released or the Mosaiques to knock out a set of the middles.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

This music, with its blend of delightful Haydnisms and decidedly forward-looking composer-centric sarcasm, may not be among Beethoven's most profound masterpieces, but I would argue that it is among his most well-crafted. That first movement - it's my Platonic ideal of precision and intentionality in music; every note, every gesture means something and the development section is an especially wonderful ride in itself. I remember listening to this for the first time and thinking that opening cello tune was inexplicably moving. Simple, yes, but just like that triadic motto of the "Eroica" first movement, it has so much power, confidence, and radiance; bespeaking yet-unexplored horizons. I expect that many of us would agree that the second movement is the most difficult to comprehend and to perform well. It is certainly a humorous enigma, yet with an ominous air about it. I've noticed that Beethoven likes to use excessively repetitive figures at times, perhaps to get the listener to associate it with something pervadent and inescapable - I think of the little cello rumble in the variations of the 14th quartet, the timpani "firecrackers" in the scherzo of the 9th symphony, the hectoring trill figure in the fugue of the "Hammerklavier" - and that odd monotone violin itch here is such a mystery. The slow movement, lovely and melancholy as it is, is not among my favorite Beethoven Adagios owing to its more static, serenade-like quality; while the finale is a boisterous bucket of fun that finds the composer in his most genial, unbuttoned vein. But what always impresses me most about Beethoven's quartets is his incredible gift for textural mastery; he exploits every possibility of the four instruments and the part-writing is often so rich as to be practically orchestral. Did the Count Razumovsky know he was in the presence of genius when he heard it?

I can offer some comments on three performances that I've heard (and I won't be hearing too many more due to the length - I don't much care for skipping around recordings), and fortunately they were all absolutely top-notch; I would never want to choose between them. We are so spoiled for choice in Beethoven recordings that sometimes I feel a little bad for all the other wonderful music that hasn't had as much representation on disc. First up, the *Alban Berg*'s live reading: Sheer. Ear. Candy. Rich, chocolatey, luxurious - you get the point. I remember reading the Gramophone review on their late quartets and them saying it was "too beautiful for its own good" or something like that, and though that's an ambiguous comment I get what they're saying. To risk stereotyping, the ABQ use the Karajan model of prioritizing sonic beauty over all else, not to mean that the other important things are subsumed. It just dominates what we hear. It works for me, but I need a little more exploratory penetration, and for that, the perennial favorite (on this thread, anyway), the *Auryn*. Their tone is not as full-bodied, but that little hint of hard-nosed roughness lends itself well to the music and the playing - oh, the playing! Such spontaneity! So many felicitous details! I literally whooped for joy at certain moments at a little bit of yummy portamento, creative phrasing, or unexpected emphasis. It's unabashed throwback chamber playing, and it's just really treasurable. A great performance should challenge your preconceptions about how the music should go; this is one of them. And then there's the famous *Budapest*, a set I have not spent enough time with. The sound is mono but perfectly listenable, and there are some really extraordinary things going on here too, not least some tangy folksiness in the tone, some feisty dance rhythms, and the kind of singing expressiveness that only comes when the players are really digging their bows into the strings. I would probably choose a good handful of more modern performances over it, but I would never want to be without it due to its unique flavor. So, to summarize - three interpretations that kept me hooked from start to finish, and all had different things to say. If you're short on time or inclination, I'd highly recommend you try and at least hear the Auryn do the first movement and the Budapest do the third movement - really, really special stuff. And for high-calorie dessert, the ABQ.


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

I'm kind of with ACB here. A good work, but not among his best works. After listening to the Takacs that I already own I felt that I didn't need to go looking for other recordings. Plus I spent all my hobby money on cigars and pipe tobacco this month anyway so it worked out. There were moments that I really loved and especially the first movement were great.


----------



## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This music, with its blend of delightful Haydnisms and decidedly forward-looking composer-centric sarcasm, may not be among Beethoven's most profound masterpieces, but I would argue that it is among his most well-crafted. That first movement - it's my Platonic ideal of precision and intentionality in music; every note, every gesture means something and the development section is an especially wonderful ride in itself. I remember listening to this for the first time and thinking that opening cello tune was inexplicably moving. Simple, yes, but just like that triadic motto of the "Eroica" first movement, it has so much power, confidence, and radiance; bespeaking yet-unexplored horizons. I expect that many of us would agree that the second movement is the most difficult to comprehend and to perform well. It is certainly a humorous enigma, yet with an ominous air about it. I've noticed that Beethoven likes to use excessively repetitive figures at times, perhaps to get the listener to associate it with something pervadent and inescapable - I think of the little cello rumble in the variations of the 14th quartet, the timpani "firecrackers" in the scherzo of the 9th symphony, the hectoring trill figure in the fugue of the "Hammerklavier" - and that odd monotone violin itch here is such a mystery. The slow movement, lovely and melancholy as it is, is not among my favorite Beethoven Adagios owing to its more static, serenade-like quality; while the finale is a boisterous bucket of fun that finds the composer in his most genial, unbuttoned vein. But what always impresses me most about Beethoven's quartets is his incredible gift for textural mastery; he exploits every possibility of the four instruments and the part-writing is often so rich as to be practically orchestral......


Excellent points, ACB. I must admit that the Adagio in Raz1 is, to me, slightly weaker than the other movements but its still excellent . There's a lot of melodic invention in the Raz. It's a real earworm and uses a lot of repetition too yet the adagio is different. It's almost as though Ludwig said to himself, "Right I've used most of my banging choons for this one so I'll drop in this calm, serene adagio before I throw the kitchen sink at them in the finale."

One of the ensembles (Kuijken) I've listened to in the past few days does something a little different than the others and it's been bugging me trying to work out the difference, apart from it being pretty brisk. I know next to zero about technical aspects of music but it sounds like it's to do with phrasing or timing in the adagio but I can't put my finger on it. I compared it with another of the brisker ones and it's definitely different. Of course, I know the Kuijken play in HIP stylee and so there's less vibrato, lighter bowing, etc, but it's not just that. Hopefully someone else notices it. It's only really noticeable in the adagio.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

> _I've noticed that Beethoven likes to use excessively repetitive figures at times, perhaps to get the listener to associate it with something pervadent and inescapable - I think of the little cello rumble in the variations of the 14th quartet, the timpani "firecrackers" in the scherzo of the 9th symphony, the hectoring trill figure in the fugue of the "Hammerklavier" - and that odd monotone violin itch here is such a mystery_


This is an excellent observation from ACB. The "over"-emphasis of figures (and even ornamentations) is something I've noticed Beethoven does and it imparts a sense of cohesive motivic unity in his compositions. Through this these figures become substantial ideas in themselves and aid the movement in its overall development and argument.

This was a first listen for me. The 1st movement is a typical example of how Beethoven can do so much with relatively simple building blocks of ideas. Listening and following along with the sheet music, it isn't so rhythmically dense as other Beethoven SQ movements (and compared to other movements within this quartet as well) which I think actually works to its advantage quite well. Beethoven milks these ideas for all their worth (I love those spontaneous bursts of energy when the triplets start coming in) between all the instruments, as a good SQ writer obviously does, in a way that's constantly fresh and invigorating.

The allegretto was fun but lost my interest after a while. I think it went on too long. Sue me 

On the flipside, Merl and ACB said above that they were sorta left cold by the Adagio while I had the opposite reaction. I thought this was one of the most beautiful SQ slow movements I've heard from Beethoven and it was easily my favorite of the 4 movements. It has a burning intensity throughout and a particularly moving theme. I love the overlapping and syncopated lines that always build up to something profound. Like ACB said Beethoven does a good job of creatively exploring all possible textures the instruments can form. Once Beethoven puts the sextuplets into the mix, the rhytmic texture becomes really interesting. I love the way it finally ends with that flurry of runs that segues seamlessly into the obligatory Russian dance in the final movement. Beethoven goes off the rails here in a wild, ferociously explosive finale. It's a headbanger for sure.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Also an idea crossed my mind a couple days ago: would anyone be interested in a thread similar to this one, but for concerti? Though that could be entering into dangerous territory, Merl might no longer have time to eat! (jk) :lol:


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## Malx

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> Also an idea crossed my mind a couple days ago: would anyone be interested in a thread similar to this one, but for concerti? Though that could be entering into dangerous territory, Merl might no longer have time to eat! (jk) :lol:


In principle that sounds ok - but the reality for me is that with this thread, the Saturday Symphony thread and then a concerto thread I'd feel my choice of listening would be too guided leaving little space for random selections or to follow a plan of my own.
I guess for others this will not be an issue but thats my tuppence worth.


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## Malx

I have now worked my way through the six recordings I have in my collection and I have to say the standard is consistently high. There is no obvious winner for me out those listened to but there are a few if pushed I'd say I'd keep above the others - only if pressured at gunpoint and truth be told I'm happy to have them all. 
They are all recordings from complete sets:

Alban Berg Quartet (EMI)
Alexander Quartet (Arte Nova)
Tokyo Quartet (HM)
Hungarian Quartet (Erato/Warner)
Gewandhaus Quartet ( NCA)
Belcea Quartet (Alpha)

The three choices would be in no particular order : *Tokyo Quartet* - great sound and a fine performance that is one I could easily recommend to anyone. *Hungarian Quartet* - a historic performance that for me gets to the heart of the music, there is personality bursting through yet not so much as to overwhelm the piece, even the mono sound isn't a great problem imo. *Belcea Quartet* - youthful, played with clarity I expected them to perhaps be a bit on the swift side but thats not the case. The inner movements are given due reverance when required but they rev things up when needed too.
An enjoyable weeks quartet listening yet again - I just wish I had the technical musical knowledge to better express what I hear - gosh it can be frustrating at times.


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## Carmina Banana

Interesting to hear some comments that are somewhat moderate in their praise for this quartet. I can relate to that and I can relate to the initial response, the head scratching from musicians and I guess stomping on the music in frustration (?). After all, this is so different from anything that came before and doesn’t have a lot of the pay-offs one looks for in a typical string quartet of the era.
I will have to politely disagree with ABC; I think this is one of the great middle period compositions of LVB. 
I think post-Heiligenstadt Beethoven was all about overcoming circumstances. The decision having been made to continue despite his deafness, he now set about translating that into musical compositions. No longer is there an easy classical balance of dark and light, happy and sad, tonic and dominant. Now he needs to throw a wrench into classical form and procedures and see if it survives. Only then can he prove that greatness is not based on what you are doled out by life—deafness/classical form, but by the genius of the individual. 
I have been reading the analysis by Kerman and, at the risk of getting a little too technical for non-musicians, I think it is worth while summarizing a couple points. I am only up to the first two movements, so I will use speak about those. As others have noted, there is no repeat of the exposition. That alone, is unusual. However, there is something Kerman pointed out that really had an impact on me. At the point in the proceedings where we might expect the exposition to repeat, it appears to do that. We are on track. The theme, however, takes an unexpected turn and lands on a Gb! The wrench. From here all hell breaks loose and we have a development that is out of proportion from the exposition. 
I’m not sure I agree with Kerman about the harmonic scheme, but he proposes that there is an unusual amount of toying with G major (justified because we need that to establish the dominant) to the degree that he claims there is a lydian feel to the movement, possibly a preview of the famous Heiliger Dankgesang from opus 132. He proposes that there is a lack of the subdominant in this movement (the usual antidote from too much sharp fourth degree) and Beethoven substitutes the flat 6th chord, Db in the role of the subdominant. This I did notice. In pieces like the Moonlight adagio, this chord fits organically, but dwelling on in this allegro movement is a bit bizarre. 
He points out that the next movement, the scherzo, is all about, guess what, the subdominant, Bb. I’m not saying this for sure, but this could be part of the reason for following the first movement with this instead of the slow movement. An attempt to right the ship harmonically.
The scherzo is one of the strangest of Beethoven’s creations. Kerman points out that he never really did any thing like this again. Indeed, I have found the scherzo is usually where Beethoven conforms to a clear version of dance form, alternating scherzo and trio as one should. This does not stick to the rules.There are different explanations for the complex form, but Kerman suggests this:
Scherzando 1, Trio !, development, Scherzando 2, Trio 2, Scherzando 3.
This movement, for me, is an exploration of contrasts and fragmentary ideas that foreshadow his late period. Head scratching galore. For me, it is wonderful head scratching.


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## Kreisler jr

I also think that op. 59/1 is the greatest middle quartet by Beethoven. Not quite in ambition and heroism, but pretty close in scale to the Eroica and apparently a similar shock for some contemporaries. The finale, the most Dvorakian piece by Beethoven is a bit on the light side (but light finales are still common, even in heroic Beethovenian aesthetics). Carmina banana aptly described some of the irritations and innovations of the spacious first movement. The B flat major scherzando is a totally unique piece, maybe the most original scherzo/scherzando by anyone before Mahler's 5th symphony. I always deplored that Beethoven never tried a similar piece in a late quartet. They have great scherzos and some are fairly large scale but mostly in the standard tripartite form or the fairly trivial expansion with the trio appearing a second time round like in op.59/2. Whereas op.59/1 has basically development all over the place and the first "recaps" are in the "wrong" keys (so while unique in form it has more sonata-form than almost any other scherzo). The adagio is one of the greatest ever, similar in scale and depth to the Eroica funeral march but far more subtle as befits chamber music. Despite the great adagio of the e minor quartet only the great slow movements of the late quartets come close (and none of these is "tragic" in the minor mode).


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Malx said:


> In principle that sounds ok - but the reality for me is that with this thread, the Saturday Symphony thread and then a concerto thread I'd feel my choice of listening would be too guided leaving little space for random selections or to follow a plan of my own.
> I guess for others this will not be an issue but thats my tuppence worth.


I didn't know there was a symphony thread in the same vein. I can totally understand what you mean if someone was in three of these types of threads at once. At that point it starts becoming a chore, no matter how good the selections each week are.


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## Malx

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I didn't know there was a symphony thread in the same vein. I can totally understand what you mean if someone was in three of these types of threads at once. At that point it starts becoming a chore, no matter how good the selections each week are.


To be fair the Saturday Symphony thread is not nearly as in depth as this one - but for me my point is still valid. 
Your idea is certainly something to keep in mind and there may well be other members that don't participate in this thread whose musical interests would make them more inclined to join in a concerto thread.


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## Merl

OMG, imagine having to review around 250 Beethoven 9ths! I'd have to listen in my sleep. :lol: 
The quartets are bad enough.


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## Malx

Merl said:


> OMG, imagine having to review around 250 Beethoven 9ths! I'd have to listen in my sleep. :lol:
> The quartets are bad enough.


You find time to sleep!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Sleep during the slow movement! I love to "sleep music", as my wife calls it. When it stops I wake up. Beethoven is actually hard to sleep to...


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## SearsPoncho

I'm somewhat surprised at the relatively tepid reaction to what is, in my very humble opinion, the most important and influential string quartet in history, however, I do understand that Beethoven is unfortunately competing against himself, and I would probably rate four of the five late quartets higher. Nevertheless, this is still THE "Eroica" of string quartets for reasons I've previously mentioned. 

I decided to do a Pepsi* challenge-style comparison between the Quartetto Italiano and my beloved Tokyo String Quartet recording (H.M.). I was surprised that the Quartetto Italiano won in a T.K.O.! I am fond of the Tokyo, but I just love the old-world charm, personality, and earthly humanity of the Q.I. 

* I actually took the Pepsi challenge in the '80's at my local supermarket. I don't remember which one I chose, but if it was Pepsi, I'm sure it was rigged (e.g., they left the cokes out all night after opening them, etc.).

Oh, one more thing about this quartet: oooh, it sounds nice!


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## Allegro Con Brio

To clarify, I didn't say that it was not a great work, just that I don't find it among his most profound masterpieces, and I would also probably favor the other two Razumovskys over it, as well as the "Harp" and all the late quartets. That'll happen when the same composer has given us such gems of art as the last five piano sonatas, Diabelli Variations, 3rd, 5th, and 9th symphonies, 4th and 5th piano concerti, Archduke Trio, etc. I can think of probably ten Beethoven slow movements I would prefer over this Adagio, because it seems more "earthbound" (whatever that might mean) rather than reaching for the stars. But great performances (like the Auryn and Budapest, I found the ABQ a bit subpar here) can fill it in with interesting details and command attention.

*Kreisler jr*, welcome to the thread! If you'd like to nominate a quartet in the future, just let me know

Next week - *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern* is up! Current schedule of nominators for the remainder of the third round:

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund


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## Burbage

I doubt there's anything useful I can add to the teeming literature written about Beethoven's quartets already. Although I've never been much of a utilitarian, I also don't have much time this week, so it'll be over quickly.

I didn't wonder why Beethoven wrote this for long. The easy answer is, as everyone knows, that Razumovsky hadn't yet lost his money. And here, as plenty of others have said, Beethoven continues Haydn's work in turning the quartet into something symphonic, aimed more at the international stage than the patron's parlour. Perhaps that's why the Russian themes were included. At this time, I think, Schuppanzigh was working for Razumovsky. Later, he'd form his own quartet and go touring, taking Beethoven's music to a much wider audience. Even if he didn't need the Count's blessing for that, an audible dedication wouldn't have hurt and, though it's hard to think of Beethoven as conspiring in flattery, I've glanced at a few of his letters, some of which suggest he could lay it on thick when he wanted.

But that's just sketchy speculation. For, rather than burying my nose in books, I've spent the best part of two days in a perspex cubicle with nothing else to do but listen to Op.59, No.1, or "Razumovsky 1" as it's more picturesquely known. Being British, like others, I also loaded my phone with Simpson's 4th. Listening to them back to back for hours at a stretch has been an interesting experience, to borrow a psychiatric term, but never a boring one.

The 167-year difference between the two is a good slice of the string quartet's entire history, though the Simpson's already half a century old, and the similarities and differences deliver an interesting insight into how one branch of the artform has evolved. Beethoven builds on Haydn and Mozart and, like Shostakovich, those Russian themes. Simpson, in turn, builds on Beethoven, and Haydn and Nielsen and Bruckner. All are composers who break conventions without necessarily rejecting anything and, between them, there's a hinted-at span of constructive, thoughtful music, that weave intriguing journeys out of echoes. But, as that might suggest, it's an experience I can better recommend than describe.

I was prompted to wonder why Beethoven and Bruckner are mainstream, Neilsen less so and Simpson not at all. What does make one quartet a plank of the canon and another a historical curiosity? Why Schubert and Mendelssohn, rather than Molique and Onslow? Why Ravel and Debussy and not Cras or Ropartz? Is it purely a matter of novelty, imitation or diplomacy? Of talent or taste? Or a mix of all five and a shot of luck besides?

For what it's worth, I listened to Talich and Takacs for the Beethoven, and the inevitable Delme with the Simpson, and I couldn't play them better myself.


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## HenryPenfold

Some days on , and quite a few more listens, and this quartet is coming into focus for me as one of Beethoven's most profound compositions; one that I feel I may well have not understood the significance and substance of previously. 

A number of commentators, including some in this thread, have referenced the Eroica in signposting the magnitude of this work. A reference that is palpable instantly with the deep and wide and towering sublime opening - a magnificent almost symphonic sweep of an opening. A music that is evidently produced from a maximum of four stringed instruments, not all playing at once, yet it broadcasts a profundity of textural sound-colour that renders the Eroica comparisons entirely justifiable. 

As I've said earlier, it is a game-changer of a work, not just for Beethoven's later string quartets (the development from the Op.18 quartets is quite staggering) but for many other composers too. 

I'm quite surprised with the thread's apparently lukewarm view of the adagio. For me, quality-wise, it stands shoulder to shoulder with the opening movement and the second movement (it is only the finale that I find tends towards the ordinary). Beethoven marks the movement 'very slow and expressive and sad' (adagio molto e mesto), so we must seek it on that very human level and we need not bench-mark it with the more celestial episodes of Beethoven's works. 

On this theme, switching between the Quartetto Italiano and Hagen quartets, I find the former capture the adagio to perfection. I think they employ a subtle portamento to their playing that helps the music flow beautifully without needing to worry too much about the underlying rhythm. A judicious approach to vibrato and their other almost indescribable musicalities (often taken for granted), give the Quartetto Italiano the highest status in this music.

I am very much enjoying this marvellous thread.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Burbage said:


> I was prompted to wonder why Beethoven and Bruckner are mainstream, Neilsen less so and Simpson not at all. What does make one quartet a plank of the canon and another a historical curiosity? Why Schubert and Mendelssohn, rather than Molique and Onslow? Why Ravel and Debussy and not Cras or Ropartz? Is it purely a matter of novelty, imitation or diplomacy? Of talent or taste? Or a mix of all five and a shot of luck besides?


That's a question I'm sure has crossed a lot of our minds at some point in time (the occasional thread pops up about it on TC too, Beethoven vs Danzi, for example). First off, I think a lot of composers tend to get deified or become more firmly established figures in the canon simply because of the merits of their music and the fact that they wrote something that stood out and connected to people. I mean, that's a pretty banal and obvious statement right? And it's very plain to see that several obscure composers wrote music that are on par with that of household names. I think with it being a cutthroat, competitive industry, some people are going to rise to the top and others will inevitably never reach the spotlight. The very same phenomenon occurs in popular music, because of just the sheer amount of music that is written. Thankfully we live in a day and age where we have unlimited access to any music we want at our fingertips, which enables us to listen to this music most people otherwise wouldn't have been able to hear.

This segues very well into my pick for this week (I guess this goes into effect on Sunday?): *Villa-Lobos: String Quartet No. 14*. I think Villa-Lobos is incredibly underrated. But the thing is, he's a universally respected composer and part of the canon, it's not like he's some nobody, but even still I feel like his name doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as it does. The man was incredibly prolific (2,000 total works in his catalogue) and everything I've heard from him has been consistently inspired. His style is so incredibly rich, colorful, and expressive. In my opinion,his name should be in the same conversation with all the other greats like Beethoven, Dvorak, Mozart, Shostakovich. But enough of me talking, let's let the people speak!

EDIT: Changed from No. 17 to No. 14, I got picky lol


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## Kjetil Heggelund

There are still some weeks to my choice, but I was looking at it just now. Villa-Lobos was considered! NICE


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## Bwv 1080

Not familiar with anything but his guitar music, so this will be cool


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## Clloydster

I'll admit that I wasn't sure how much I would like listening to the same piece over and over - but I've given it a shot this week. I think I have listened to the Beethoven string quartet 6 times now. Like I said, I have Apple Music, so I went and loaded up some of the recordings you all have talked about - my own Takacs Quartet recording, then also Vegh Quartet, Talich Quartet, Alban Berg Quartet, Quartetto Italiano, and finally Auryn Quartet.

I don't have as intellectual of comments as you all. I didn't like the Vegh Quartet - it felt too slow, and I just didn't enjoy it. I don't think it is just the speed, because the Italiano I think was my favorite, and it was also what I would consider slow. Auryn felt about on par, for me, with the Takacs Quartet. If I had to rank them in order of how much I enjoyed them, it would have to be:
1. Italiano
2. Alban Berg

3/4. Takacs/Auryn

5. Talich
6. Vegh

I'd probably keep the top 4 - I enjoyed listening to all of them. I liked the Italiano a little better than the Alban Berg, even though I preferred the faster pace in the beginning of the Alban Berg, but something about the recording of the Alban Berg, almost sounded like it was recorded in a cave, or something.

That's my major contribution. From the big list, I've also listened to the other two Beethoven quartets - no. 14 and no. 16.

I've never heard of Villa-Lobos - I'll have to go look him up. Any recommendations for a recording to look for in Apple Music?


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## Clloydster

And I may have to go look at that Symphony group you all talked about - that is most of what I listen to with classical music, although I'm coming to like the string quartets!


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## Merl

I've only just started listening to Villa-Lobos' quartets and I'm not familiar with any in particular so that's a nice way to start exploring his quartets. Like you, HP, I listened to the Hagen quartet Razumovsky and I've gotta say I was a little disappointed with it. They don't play with either the beauty or the fire of others. It's easily recommendable but others are much better, IMHO. I've just finished my list of picks so I'll post it later. Two particularly stood out this week but there, are tons of other crackers to listen to, as well. Give me an hour.


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## Malx

Clloydster said:


> I'll admit that I wasn't sure how much I would like listening to the same piece over and over - but I've given it a shot this week. I think I have listened to the Beethoven string quartet 6 times now. Like I said, I have Apple Music, so I went and loaded up some of the recordings you all have talked about - my own Takacs Quartet recording, then also Vegh Quartet, Talich Quartet, Alban Berg Quartet, Quartetto Italiano, and finally Auryn Quartet.
> 
> I don't have as intellectual of comments as you all. I didn't like the Vegh Quartet - it felt too slow, and I just didn't enjoy it. I don't think it is just the speed, because the Italiano I think was my favorite, and it was also what I would consider slow. Auryn felt about on par, for me, with the Takacs Quartet. If I had to rank them in order of how much I enjoyed them, it would have to be:
> 1. Italiano
> 2. Alban Berg
> 
> 3/4. Takacs/Auryn
> 
> 5. Talich
> 6. Vegh
> 
> I'd probably keep the top 4 - I enjoyed listening to all of them. I liked the Italiano a little better than the Alban Berg, even though I preferred the faster pace in the beginning of the Alban Berg, but something about the recording of the Alban Berg, almost sounded like it was recorded in a cave, or something.
> 
> That's my major contribution. From the big list, I've also listened to the other two Beethoven quartets - no. 14 and no. 16.
> 
> I've never heard of Villa-Lobos - I'll have to go look him up. Any recommendations for a recording to look for in Apple Music?


I agree with your comments regarding the sound of the Alban Berg recording, I'm presuming it was the EMI studio one you are referring to - the sound does let it down.

ETA: The Saturday Symphony thread doesn't get near this one for content and discussion it tends to just be alist of who is listening to what recording with very little comment - but have a look.


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## Merl

A bit early than expected.... Apologies for the massive list but I had extensive notes on this from years ago and it's been heavily recorded in stand-alone performances. Lots of fine performances that didn't make the final list that are also decent (Eg. Cypress, Vermeer, Di Cremona, Elias, Vanbrugh) but I had to draw the line somewhere.

Recommended
Borodin
Talich 
Vegh
Suske
Alcan
Alexander (Arte Nova)
Orpheus
Wihan (live) 
Tokyo (RCA) 
Tokyo (Harmonium Mundi) 
Juilliard (60s)
Alban Berg (live) 
Guarneri (Decca)
Orion 
Bartok
Kuss 
Philharmonia
Cleveland (90s)
Gabrieli
Smetana (Supraphon) 
Vlach
Hagen

*Special*

*Belcea* - although they take their foot off the gas a little too much in the adagio, elsewhere the Belcea account is phrased brilliantly and is so stylish. 
*Kodaly* - fine, authorative performance and the final movement really swings. Another Kodaly winner. 
*Artemis* - for all their excellent attacks, graduated dynamics and superb ensemble the ABQ et al have that bit more mystery here. Its still superb though. Killer finale. 
*Fine Arts *- I can't say why I enjoy this one so much. It just makes sense as a cohesive performance and speaks to me. The rich tone of the Fine Arts Quartet of the time is very alluring. 
*Alexander (Foghorn)* - gritty, powerful but full of angst too, the Alexanders better their first Raz with a more nervous and tense approach. 
*Prazak* - plenty of verve and some edgy playing from the Czech quartet. Some might find their Czech tang a bit shrill but I love it. 
*Gewandhaus* - I really like this recording. It's full, powerful, beautifully recorded and well-realised. An immediate hit. 
*Emerson* - another Emerson masterclass. Technically special but also wonderfully agile performance that's better recorded than some of the Emerson's other DG efforts. 
*Amadeus (DG) *- older style performance that doesn't shy away from heavier use of vibrato but their tone is glorious. The Amadeus quartet doesn't often do it in Beethoven for me but this is a lovely performance that sounds spot-on.

*The Super League (lol) *

*Takacs* - as you'd expect, technically superb but as a whole the Takacs shade their performance with athletic phrasing and an unbelievable dynamic approach. 
*Alban Berg* - vigorous, brisker and thoroughly refreshing. I marginally prefer this one over their live account (others may feel differently) but they play with such an organic flow and feeling for the music. Certainly an ensemble not afraid to really dig in and a worthy classic from a fine cy le. 
*Melos* - highly vivacious and brisk (except for a rather slow but lovely adagio) performance. Virtuosic and whilst there's the odd moment with intonation issues this is such an agile and fine account it sweeps you off your feet. 
*Valentin-Berlinsky* - the VBs are lighter in approach but their beauty is irresistible. 
*Italiano* - they may be slower than many but the sheer sumptuousness of their playing wins out. Almost the Karajan of SQ quartets they know how to make the Raz sing even at broader speeds. A classic performance for a reason. 
*Auryn* - what is left to say about the Auryn's Beethoven. Stunning recording, acoustic and ensemble. They don't take chances (this is is a firmly conventional interpretation) but their sheer class and technical skill carries this off. As good as it gets.

*Top bananas*









*Kuijken* - HIP style performance on period instruments. The Kuijken play with limited vibratp and technically they're not always as tight as others but they play the outer movements with such vivacity it's impossible not to love it. If you're not inclined to this style of performance it may not be for you but combined with lovely acoustics this is a recording that demands your attention. Their adagio is possibly the strongest I heard in this quartet.









*Leipziger* - for those that might not care for the Kuijken's zippier, vibrato-lite approach this is a great alternative. Very like the Auryn recording in style and scope, what stood out on this one was just how organic this felt. Whilst some others frame the adagio either too slowly or sadly, the Leipzigers play with a beautiful serenity but every movement is just a delight. Excellent recorded sound too. A delight.


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## StevehamNY

Clloydster said:


> I've never heard of Villa-Lobos - I'll have to go look him up. Any recommendations for a recording to look for in Apple Music?


Clloydster, I believe your choices on Apple Music are the Cuarteto Latino Americano, the Daubius Quartet, and the Quarteto Bessler-Reis. (The Quarteto Amazonia has recorded Villa-Lobos, but I don't see #14.)

I have the Latino Americano complete set, and am very much looking forward to diving back into yet another composer I probably haven't given enough of a chance! But if you (or I) want to sample all of them, at least it's a manageable number this week. Enjoy!


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> ETA: The Saturday Symphony thread .........


Begging your pardon, but to me ETA means the Basque separatists or an acronym for the time of arrival of Thunderbird 2 at the scene of some potential civil catastrophe. what does it mean in your post?


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> A bit early than expected.... Apologies for the massive list but I had extensive notes on this from years ago and it's been heavily recorded in stand-alone performances. Lots of fine performances that didn't make the final list that are also decent (Eg. Cypress, Vermeer, Di Cremona, Elias, Vanbrugh) but I had to draw the line somewhere.
> 
> Recommended
> Borodin
> Talich
> Vegh
> Suske
> Alcan
> Alexander (Arte Nova)
> Orpheus
> Wihan (live)
> Tokyo (RCA)
> Tokyo (Harmonium Mundi)
> Juilliard (60s)
> Alban Berg (live)
> Guarneri (Decca)
> Orion
> Bartok
> Kuss
> Philharmonia
> Gabrieli
> Smetana (Supraphon)
> Vlach
> Hagen
> 
> *Special*
> 
> *Belcea* - although they take their foot off the gas a little too much in the adagio, elsewhere the Belcea account is phrased brilliantly and is so stylish.
> *Kodaly* - fine, authorative performance and the final movement really swings. Another Kodaly winner.
> *Artemis* - for all their excellent attacks, graduated dynamics and superb ensemble the ABQ et al have that bit more mystery here. Its still superb though. Killer finale.
> *Fine Arts *- I can't say why I enjoy this one so much. It just makes sense as a cohesive performance and speaks to me. The rich tone of the Fine Arts Quartet of the time is very alluring.
> *Alexander (Foghorn)* - gritty, powerful but full of angst too, the Alexanders better their first Raz with a more nervous and tense approach.
> *Prazak* - plenty of verve and some edgy playing from the Czech quartet. Some might find their Czech tang a bit shrill but I love it.
> *Gewandhaus* - I really like this recording. It's full, powerful, beautifully recorded and well-realised. An immediate hit.
> *Emerson* - another Emerson masterclass. Technically special but also wonderfully agile performance that's better recorded than some of the Emerson's other DG efforts.
> *Amadeus (DG) *- older style performance that doesn't shy away from heavier use of vibrato but their tone is glorious. The Amadeus quartet doesn't often do it in Beethoven for me but this is a lovely performance that sounds spot-on.
> 
> *The Super League (lol) *
> 
> *Takacs* - as you'd expect, technically superb but as a whole the Takacs shade their performance with athletic phrasing and an unbelievable dynamic approach.
> *Alban Berg* - vigorous, brisker and thoroughly refreshing. I marginally prefer this one over their live account (others may feel differently) but they play with such an organic flow and feeling for the music. Certainly an ensemble not afraid to really dig in and a worthy classic from a fine cy le.
> *Melos* - highly vivacious and brisk (except for a rather slow but lovely adagio) performance. Virtuosic and whilst there's the odd moment with intonation issues this is such an agile and fine account it sweeps you off your feet.
> *Valentin-Berlinsky* - the VBs are lighter in approach but their beauty is irresistible.
> *Italiano* - they may be slower than many but the sheer sumptuousness of their playing wins out. Almost the Karajan of SQ quartets they know how to make the Raz sing even at broader speeds. A classic performance for a reason.
> *Auryn* - what is left to say about the Auryn's Beethoven. Stunning recording, acoustic and ensemble. They don't take chances (this is is a firmly conventional interpretation) but their sheer class and technical skill carries this off. As good as it gets.
> 
> *Top bananas*
> 
> View attachment 154373
> 
> 
> *Kuijken* - HIP style performance on period instruments. The Kuijken play with limited vibratp and technically they're not always as tight as others but they play the outer movements with such vivacity it's impossible not to love it. If you're not inclined to this style of performance it may not be for you but combined with lovely acoustics this is a recording that demands your attention. Their adagio is possibly the strongest I heard in this quartet.
> 
> View attachment 154374
> 
> 
> *Leipziger* - for those that might not care for the Kuijken's zippier, vibrato-lite approach this is a great alternative. Very like the Auryn recording in style and scope, what stood out on this one was just how organic this felt. Whilst some others frame the adagio either too slowly or sadly, the Leipzigers play with a beautiful serenity but every movement is just a delight. Excellent recorded sound too. A delight.


Great round up Merl, many thanks. Still no cigar for the Italiani


----------



## Merl

Villa-Lobos #14 recordings I could find. Are there any more? 

Cuarteto Latinoamericano
Danubius
Bessler-Reis


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> Begging your pardon, but to me ETA means the Basque separatists or an acronym for the time of arrival of Thunderbird 2 at the scene of some potential civil catastrophe. what does it mean in your post?


ETA - edited to add. 
I'm not very internet/computer savy, but I recall seeing this used by someone else, somewhere else - I've just checked and according to urban dictionary.com - ETA can be used in the manner I have used it.

Hope that helps Henry :tiphat:


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## Malx

Merl.
Do I take it that the 'Super League' selections are worthless


----------



## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> ETA - edited to add.
> I'm not very internet/computer savy, but I recall seeing this used by someone else, somewhere else - I've just checked and according to urban dictionary.com - ETA can be used in the manner I have used it.
> 
> Hope that helps Henry :tiphat:


Cheers Malx!

Btw, I wasn't questioning your use of the term, I just didn't know what it meant!


----------



## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> Cheers Malx!
> 
> Btw, I wasn't questioning your use of the term, I just didn't know what it meant!


No worries Henry, I just wanted to be sure before I replied - as I said me and internet things sometimes are total strangers.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Villa-Lobos #14 recordings I could find. Are there any more?
> 
> Cuarteto Latinoamericano
> Danubius
> Bessler-Reis


I don't think there are any other recordings. I have the Mexicans, but have never heard a note of the Hungarian and Brazilian quartets.


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Great round up Merl, many thanks. Still no cigar for the Italiani


Tbh, HP, there was hardly anything between the top 15 or so recordings, for me. The Italiano recording is superb. The Italianos were my first complete Beethoven cycle and it remains a great set. Unlike critics I take every single recording one at a time and compare in detail so just because I think the Itallianos is a top cycle does not mean they are going to be the best or even wholly recommendable in every SQ (or every Beethoven SQ review would be the same). It bugs me when critics / punters do that. There were a lot of recordings of Raz1 from sets I love that only just scraped into this review (eg Vegh, Talich) or didn't even make it. Similarly, I'm not often a big fan of Amadeus performances but they sound great here and fully deserved their place. Everyone is capable of a great / average or inferior recordings.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Tbh, HP, there was hardly anything between the top 15 or so recordings, for me. The Italiano recording is superb. The Italianos were my first complete Beethoven cycle and it remains a great set. Unlike critics I take every single recording one at a time and compare in detail so just because I think the Itallianos is a top cycle does not mean they are going to be the best or even wholly recommendable in every SQ (or every Beethoven SQ review would be the same). It bugs me when critics / punters do that. There were a lot of recordings of Raz1 from sets I love that only just scraped into this review (eg Vegh, Talich) or didn't even make it. Similarly, I'm not often a big fan of Amadeus performances but they sound great here and fully deserved their place. Everyone is capable of a great / average or inferior recordings.


Indeed, the right approach Merl.

My comment was light hearted and in no way connected to me being Anglo-Italian!

And I don't mind if you call me Henry, HP reminds me of brown sauce and I'm firmly a Daddy's man, although recently I have taken to applying Levi Roots Reggae Reggae Jerk Bbq sauce on my fullest Anglaise!


----------



## Second Trombone

I listened to Op. 59/1 with the Auryn and Colorado Quartets--both excellent and rather similar in their approaches, which are lean, muscular and forward-moving, with extremely clear rendering of the four distinct polyphonic lines. Both are helped by well placed miking and contemporary digital sound. As a side note, the entire Colorado Quartet's set of the complete Beethoven quartets is available from Amazon as mp3 downloads for .99 cents. A real bargain, if you can tolerate mp3. It's one of the top sets of quartets I've heard thus far.
I really enjoyed the opportunity to listen closely to Op 59/1, which I hadn't heard much before. It may not be the Beethoven of grand romantic gestures, but it is extremely well composed, and to mind mind, at least, of great formal and musical interest.
This is my first post on this thread, btw. I'm new to Talk Classical and am very glad to discover a thread devoted to string quartets--my favorite musical form.


----------



## Clloydster

Greatly enjoying this thread - I have to remember there are other things to learn around here, but I like how active and responsive this is, especially to my numerous questions. The hand holding for a novice is greatly appreciated!


----------



## StevehamNY

For any Beethoven recording, you either go with the scowling face of the Big Guy himself, or else you spend the money for your best professional portrait because you know this one will be part of your legacy forever.

Here are a few that I think get it right:

































This one is a slight cheat, because it's the full Italianos box set. But I don't think I've ever seen a more effective use of four faces on an album cover. So simple and clean, and yet have you ever seen a foursome emanate such total command over their craft? Is this the Beatles? Led Zeppelin? The Clash?

No, this is the Quartetto MF'ing Italiano.


----------



## Clloydster

Second Trombone said:


> I listened to Op. 59/1 with the Auryn and Colorado Quartets--both excellent and rather similar in their approaches, which are lean, muscular and forward-moving, with extremely clear rendering of the four distinct polyphonic lines. Both are helped by well placed miking and contemporary digital sound. As a side note, the Colorado Quartet's performances are available from Amazon as mp3 downloads for .99 cents. A real bargain, if you can tolerate mp3.
> I really enjoyed the opportunity to listen closely to Op 59/1, which I hadn't heard much before. It may not be the Beethoven of grand romantic gestures, but it is extremely well composed, and too mind mind, at least, of great formal and musical interest.
> This is my first post on this thread, btw. I'm new to Talk Classical and am very glad to discover a thread devoted to string quartets--my favorite musical form.


I'm also new around here, and was invited into this thread very quickly, and it has been a great place for me to expand my knowledge. Nice group of posters in here, as well. I'm learning a lot about a type of classical music I didn't know very well at all, and really enjoying this Beethoven string quartet.


----------



## StevehamNY

And then there are these...








Because it's a boat. Inside a church. Which can only mean Beethoven.








Two hours in the studio, over a hundred shots, and this is the one that looked the most natural.








The Razumovsky is here, I promise. It's like one of those "Create a Random Album Cover" generators.








Cello player: "LADIES? Need I say more?"








And I got nothing for this one. Anybody have a guess?


----------



## Merl

Second Trombone said:


> I listened to Op. 59/1 with the Auryn and Colorado Quartets--both excellent and rather similar in their approaches, which are lean, muscular and forward-moving, with extremely clear rendering of the four distinct polyphonic lines. Both are helped by well placed miking and contemporary digital sound. As a side note, the entire Colorado Quartet's set of the complete Beethoven quartets is available from Amazon as mp3 downloads for .99 cents. A real bargain, if you can tolerate mp3. It's one of the top sets of quartets I've heard thus far.
> I really enjoyed the opportunity to listen closely to Op 59/1, which I hadn't heard much before. It may not be the Beethoven of grand romantic gestures, but it is extremely well composed, and to mind mind, at least, of great formal and musical interest.
> This is my first post on this thread, btw. I'm new to Talk Classical and am very glad to discover a thread devoted to string quartets--my favorite musical form.


Crap! I knew I'd forgotten a recording! In fact I just realised I've missed both the Colorado and one of the Cleveland recordings. I'll listen to the Colorado right now and the Cleveland later (both on my HD). If necessary I'll edit my list post. This is what happens when you don't make a proper list!

BTW, @ Henry, I didn't want to presume to use the name 'Henry' in the thread but I will from now on. Oh, and of course I knew you you were messing with your Itallianos comment. Hope my reply didn't come across as sounding snotty or angry. I should have used a smily emoji. This is what happens when you don't make a proper list of the emojis to use.:lol:


----------



## Kreisler jr

I am a bit surprised at the praise for the Kujken. While I have not heard their F major, I used to have the earlier single disc with op.59/3 and the string quintet and found this rather ordinary, especially the op.59/3 that has been recorded by everyone and their dog was not special at all. (As it was a sellable SACD I got rid of the disc.)


----------



## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I am a bit surprised at the praise for the Kujken. *While I have not heard their F major, *I used to have the earlier single disc with op.59/3 and the string quintet and found this rather ordinary, especially the op.59/3 that has been recorded by everyone and their dog was not special at all. (As it was a sellable SACD I got rid of the disc.)


Ive not heard the 59/3 so can't comment but I'm not going to assume it's as good as the 59/1. Perhaps it is poor. They may have had an off day. Maybe it's recorded at a different venue. maybe they just weren't on fire that day. Maybe it will be better. I don't know but I'm not going to presume anything. I was mighty impressed with the 59/1 though. Just because an ensemble do one performance we don't like doesn't necessarily mean another is gonna be the same. That's what I was saying before. I find that certain critics are massively guilty of this attitude and (I can think of one in particular). For example the Guarneris made it firmly into this round-up but were nowhere near good enough in the last Beethoven quartet I reviewed. The Italianos didn't squeeze into the last round-up (and I love their cycle) because compared to other recordings it was just OK but they were near the top of this one. On the other hand maybe you just don't like sound the Kuijkens make. I'm not mad on what I've heard of the Festetics Haydn but I'll still keep giving each individual performance a listen. Maybe the next one will be my favourite. I did say in my roundup that not everyone with like the Kuijken's low-on-vibrato approach. For a different performance you have the likes of the Auryn's or the Leipzigers or for polar opposite performance there's the likes of the Itallianos.

PS. I've just finished listening to the Colorado performance. It's decent but not enough for me to drop it into my review (the adagio is played with too much melancholy for a start). I have notes on the Cleveland account so I just skip-listened to make sure I still felt the same. I do so it's going into the recommended pile.


----------



## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> And then there are these...
> 
> View attachment 154385
> 
> Because it's a boat. Inside a church. Which can only mean Beethoven.
> 
> View attachment 154386
> 
> Two hours in the studio, over a hundred shots, and this is the one that looked the most natural.
> 
> View attachment 154387
> 
> The Razumovsky is here, I promise. It's like one of those "Create a Random Album Cover" generators.
> 
> View attachment 154388
> 
> Cello player: "LADIES? Need I say more?"
> 
> View attachment 154389
> 
> And I got nothing for this one. Anybody have a guess?


On the last Album cover: Claudia Cardinale got lost in Metropolis?


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## starthrower

I like the Arte Nova covers even if they don't make any sense. I have several.


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## Merl

Here's a great cover for you Steve. Add your own caption


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Here's a great cover for you Steve. Add your own caption
> 
> View attachment 154408


"Look, No.64 comes with rice OR noodles"


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## Kreisler jr

Can someone briefly sketch the procedure and schedule for a newcomer? The new quartet is now Villa-Lobos #14 but when will the discussion begin? Next Friday May 1st or later? earlier?

thank you!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Kreisler jr said:


> Can someone briefly sketch the procedure and schedule for a newcomer? The new quartet is now Villa-Lobos #14 but when will the discussion begin? Next Friday May 1st or later? earlier?
> 
> thank you!


We start listening to the new quartet every Sunday - so tomorrow we will begin with it.


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## StevehamNY

starthrower said:


> I like the Arte Nova covers even if they don't make any sense. I have several.


ST, I agree 100%, even if I poke fun at some of them. I'd rather have a dada-esque head-scratcher than another mountain landscape stolen from a funeral home lobby.


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> Can someone briefly sketch the procedure and schedule for a newcomer? The new quartet is now Villa-Lobos #14 but when will the discussion begin? Next Friday May 1st or later? earlier?
> 
> thank you!


All newbies have to send £20 via PayPal to each thread member, post a picture of themselves wearing a flowery dress and make a small video of themselves playing the first movement of Dvorak's American quartet on a kazoo. Henry cheated by using a comb and paper and wearing a bikini. He's never been forgiven.


----------



## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> All newbies have to send £20 via PayPal to each thread member, post a picture of themselves wearing a flowery dress and make a small video of themselves playing the first movement of Dvorak's American quartet on a kazoo. Henry cheated by using a comb and paper and wearing a bikini. He's never been forgiven.


As a thread member, I can confirm that this is the correct procedure for entrance into our club.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> As a thread member, I can confirm that this is the correct procedure for entrance into our club.


And we've not even told him about the initiation ceremony, yet. :devil:


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> Here's a great cover for you Steve. Add your own caption
> 
> View attachment 154408


"Here's the problem, gentlemen. This is a quintet."


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Here's a great cover for you Steve. Add your own caption


"See, this is the original marking for the first movement, gents: _Ha giocato come se ti piacciono i culi grossi e non puoi mentire, e gli altri fratelli non possono negare_.*"

* Played as if you like big butts and you cannot lie, and other brothers can't deny.

EDIT: I see now that there's some controversy over the translation of the marking they're reading above. Some scholars actually think it means, To be played as if seeing a little silhouetto of a man Scaramouch, Scaramouch, will you do the fandango, thunderbolt and lightning, very very frightening


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## Merl

My first listen to the Villa-Lobos SQ 14 this morning, courtesy of the Danubius quartet, and it's an interesting piece. It didn't hit me straight away but I did enjoy the nostalgic-sounding 2nd movement, a lot. I'll be revisiting this quartet agaon over the next few days. Villa-Lobos has an interesting style but I'm not sure this was suited by the acoustic of the Danubius recording which is rather dry so that whilst it captured the busy counterpoint well it felt a bit 'empty' . I'll try the Latinoamericano recording next and see if that appeals more.


----------



## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> My first listen to the Villa-Lobos SQ 14 this morning, courtesy of the Danubius quartet, and it's an interesting piece. It didn't hit me straight away but I did enjoy the nostalgic-sounding 2nd movement, a lot. I'll be revisiting this quartet agaon over the next few days. Villa-Lobos has an interesting style but I'm not sure this was suited by the acoustic of the Danubius recording which is rather dry so that whilst it captured the busy counterpoint well it felt a bit 'empty' . I'll try the Latinoamericano recording next and see if that appeals more.


I listened to it yesterday, while cooking dinner, which was a mistake, being quite a monotasker. So I was a bit underwelmed. I relistened to it today without being distracted, by the Latinoamericano, who play gorgeously. I find this piece to be very enjoyable, especially the more symphonic sonorous parts, coupled with of course the rythmicism typical for V L. Great discovery!


----------



## Merl

I just listened to the Latinoamericano performance of the 14th and this felt much better. Warmer and really well played, I definitely felt more in tune with the piece. Just out of interest I listened to his 1st quartet straight after to see where Villa-Lobos began his SQ journey and absolutely loved it. Definitely a different style, more Ravelian (is that an adjective?) and with a playful, short pizzicato-laden 2nd movement full of Latin-American colour and dance rhythms. I really do need to listen to VL's quartets properly.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Heitor Villa-Lobos! Probably the composer that tops my list of “know virtually nothing about but really need to dive into.” I’ve been embarassingly ignorant of his music for a very long time, and I’ll be listening with relish this week. Only two recordings show up on my streaming, so this will be a nice break from the gobs of Beethoven/Shostakovich/Dvorak recordings one must wade through and prioritize.


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## SearsPoncho

Like many people, I only know Villa-Lobos from his guitar pieces, fantastic guitar concerto, and Bachianas Brasileiras. I listened to the Q. LatinoAmericano and it hit me just right. I will give it another listen, and if it makes the same impression, I will purchase the recording, which is only $4.75 with a couple other quartets. 

Good Choice.


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## Bwv 1080

Downloaded the complete Cuarteto Latinamericano set from Idagio. Some very Bartokian elements here - the 4th chord intro, then <0,1,5,6>, Bartok's Z-cell material. Also cool use of clave (the accented 2-upbeat) in the B material in the first movement.

Liked the fugal 2nd movement - switching right into parallel 5ths after the exposition is a nice touch


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## Bwv 1080

Also FWIW the pronunciation is AY-tor veela-LOW-bosh, although I don’t speak Portuguese and stand to be corrected by someone who does


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## HenryPenfold

Aytor villa lobus is the Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation (the 'bus' bit is as in push, not bus)


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## StevehamNY

The Quarteto Bessler-Reis is the third recording available on most of the streaming services. On first listen, I find them to be on the same level as the Latinoamericano, but am wondering if others here will think the same.









(They share a complete set with the Amazonia, by the way, with the QBR doing 1-6, then the Amazonia taking 7-11, then back to the QBR for 12-17.)


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## HenryPenfold

Fairly familiar with most Villa Lobos, but not the SQs, which along with my sets of Tischenko, Ben Johnson, Quincy Porter and a few others are on my 'to do' list!


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## SearsPoncho

Ever since Bwv 1080 pointed out the Bartok similarity, I can't stop hearing Bartok in every measure. Villa-Lobos was a great admirer of Bach - I believe he dedicated the 3rd Prelude for Guitar to Bach, and it very clearly has a famous Bach "lick" or phrase.


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Downloaded the complete Cuarteto Latinamericano set from Idagio. Some very Bartokian elements here - the 4th chord intro, then <0,1,5,6>, Bartok's Z-cell material. Also cool use of clave (the accented 2-upbeat) in the B material in the first movement.
> 
> Liked the fugal 2nd movement - switching right into parallel 5ths after the exposition is a nice touch


^ Great Post, BWV. This is how I'd love to talk about SQs rather than 'it's really enjoyable". My lack of musical knowledge annoys and frustrates me at times.


----------



## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> The Quarteto Bessler-Reis is the third recording available on most of the streaming services. On first listen, I find them to be on the same level as the Latinoamericano, but am wondering if others here will think the same.
> 
> View attachment 154451
> 
> 
> (They share a complete set with the Amazonia, by the way, with the QBR doing 1-6, then the Amazonia taking 7-11, then back to the QBR for 12-17.)


Just listened to this. What a hot-blooded performance, really exciting! The Latinoamericanos focus on the sonority and have a really beautiful tone, but the Bessler-Reis have that plus an incredible forward drive. All movements are really exciting, the second mysterious and almost Debussyian. This recording will be hard to beat.


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## Clloydster

I have listened to the Latinoamericano recording one time through so far. My initial impression is that I didn't much care for the first and third movements, but the second and fourth were much more interesting to me - but I don't know if this is something I would come back to outside of this group. But I'll give it a chance this week and see if it changes my mind. Maybe I'll listen to the other recordings.


----------



## Merl

Clloydster said:


> I have listened to the Latinoamericano recording one time through so far. My initial impression is that I didn't much care for the first and third movements, but the second and fourth were much more interesting to me - but I don't know if this is something I would come back to outside of this group. But I'll give it a chance this week and see if it changes my mind. Maybe I'll listen to the other recordings.


I had another listen again, this morning, to the Latinoamericano Quartet and I kinda agree with Clloydster above. This one really isn't rattling my cage much. I like the 2nd movement but I'm less enamoured with the other movements. I definitely prefer the earlier quartets of V-L (I tried the 2nd and 3rd quartets earlier). I'll give the Bessler-Reis a go later but if that one doesn't do it for me then I'll just have to admit defeat. I have a back-up plan if this one doesn't appeal. We can't all like the same thing.


----------



## Clloydster

Merl said:


> I had another listen again, this morning, to the Latinoamericano Quartet and I kinda agree with Clloydster above. This one really isn't rattling my cage much. I like the 2nd movement but I'm less enamoured with the other movements. I definitely prefer the earlier quartets of V-L (I tried the 2nd and 3rd quartets earlier). I'll give the Bessler-Reis a go later but if that one doesn't do it for me then I'll just have to admit defeat. I have a back-up plan if this one doesn't appeal. We can't all like the same thing.


I'll admit that most of my classical music tastes tend towards 18th-19th centuries, so maybe some is my bias. But I'll give it another go and see if anything changes.


----------



## StevehamNY

I'm liking this quartet more and more as I listen to it, and (not for the first time here) it's opened up many other quartets by the same composer. There is so much to absorb here, and it's been alternately beautiful and puzzling to me. That usually means I'm going to love it some day, if I give it enough time. 

I just read that Villa-Lobos wrote this quartet on a commission from my alma mater, the University of Michigan. It was debuted by the Stanley Quartet in 1954 at the School of Music's annual program. I wasn't born yet, but years later I would walk past that same building every day on my way to class. It just makes the world feel a little smaller today.


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## Bwv 1080

A short video on Choro, which was a big influence on Villa Lobos


----------



## Carmina Banana

Bwv 1080 said:


> Downloaded the complete Cuarteto Latinamericano set from Idagio. Some very Bartokian elements here - the 4th chord intro, then <0,1,5,6>, Bartok's Z-cell material. Also cool use of clave (the accented 2-upbeat) in the B material in the first movement.
> 
> Liked the fugal 2nd movement - switching right into parallel 5ths after the exposition is a nice touch


Not sure what you mean by "fourth chord." Are you talking about quartal harmony? It seems like it starts right in with the use of that cell you described. It's too bad they don't break out some actual claves to play that clave rhythm.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Carmina Banana said:


> Not sure what you mean by "fourth chord." Are you talking about quartal harmony? It seems like it starts right in with the use of that cell you described. It's too bad they don't break out some actual claves to play that clave rhythm.


Yes, quartal harmony - fourth chord is jazz lingo for the same thing. The opening figure is Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C-B, so straight 4ths / 5ths not the Z-cell


----------



## Malx

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, quartal harmony - fourth chord is jazz lingo for the same thing. *The opening figure is Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C-B, so straight 4ths / 5ths not the Z-cell*


I put that sentence into google translate - but drew a blank


----------



## Carmina Banana

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, quartal harmony - fourth chord is jazz lingo for the same thing. The opening figure is Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C-B, so straight 4ths / 5ths not the Z-cell


I see what you are saying, the main notes they land on. I don't know what I hearing. Also, the video about Choro is really interesting!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Time for Villa-Lobos! Since I started classical guitar lessons in 1985, I have listened to a lot of his music. Especially Bachianas Brasileiras and the guitar works. I have a CD with Cuarteto Latinoamericano, but not with no. 14. I kind of think they play "muddy" and are not so dynamically interesting. I suspect that is why I don't get so excited hearing the quartets. I guess I'm a jerk since they have a great reputation...


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## Clloydster

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, quartal harmony - fourth chord is jazz lingo for the same thing. The opening figure is Db-Ab-Eb-Bb-F-C-B, so straight 4ths / 5ths not the Z-cell


That is amazing! I was just about to type the exact same thing! :tiphat:

I'm enjoying all the insights here - even the ones that go completely over my head.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This write-up from AllMusic is very nice:



> Composers outside the mainstream often offer new standards -- not just new sounds, but new possibilities for what old sounds can mean. The string quartets of Heitor Villa-Lobos lend a great illustration: in general, they are overlooked when speaking of twentieth century quartets. They are not as tight, aggressive, and revolutionary as Bartók's; they aren't as labyrinthine and emotionally encoded as Berg's; they aren't as tortured and politically charged as Shostakovich's. But Villa-Lobos' 17 quartets -- a massive number by any count -- do create their own wonderful universe in which logic moves differently and new modes of construction and beauty take their hold. The Fourteenth, from 1953, is a fine example; like many of Villa-Lobos' other quartets, it is formally unbuttoned; the structure of each of the four movements does not unfold with aggressive developmental intention, but unfolds until it reaches a new tributary, at which point it promptly breaks away. And while this structural freewheeling, seen in the light of Bartók and Berg, can appear facile and unrealistic, in its own light it creates an impressively individual aesthetic. Call it a branch of musical surrealism, savoring the surprising juxtaposition and generating its complexity not from individual moments (always transparent in Villa-Lobos), but from the mysterious, contradictory way in which they are sewn together. The Villa-Lobos quartet scholar Arnaldo Estrella likened this propensity to "a flowing brook, a constant becoming," perhaps an Amazonian answer to the Teutonic preoccupation with "developing variations."
> 
> The opening Allegro, for instance, holds itself together with minimal stitching; its burst of fourths at the beginning gained the score the subtitle "Quartet of Fourths," but there is much harmonic variety in its vine-swinging from idea to idea. The following Andante is one of Villa-Lobos' darker slow movements; it transforms the usual light-blue melancholy into a knotty pathos. Perhaps there is, despite Villa-Lobos' highly un-German spirit, a shade of Beethoven here, possibly referring to the opening fugue of his Op. 131 quartet. Similarly, Villa-Lobos' movement intertwines in elegiac, almost morbid ricercare textures. Its alleviation via a contrasting middle section is mirrored in the fantastical scherzo; here, contrary-motion scales and wild glissandi veer in their near-atonality toward direct triadic sunlight. The Molto allegro finale returns to the score's opening fourths and flaunts humorously chunky ideas, magnetic doublings, and a spirited evocation of the rustic Brazilian harmonica Villa-Lobos encountered in his youthful travels.


I've listened once to the Latin American Quartet recording, and I'm liking it, but I need a bit more time to develop my thoughts. It's Bartokian in terms of rhythm but the tonal idiom is more stable, at least to my ears.


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## Malx

^
Interesting reading the comments in the article ACB posted above.
Yesterday I listened to the Quatuor Bessler-Reis recording three times and was left unsure of what to think - the comments about a 'flowing brook' and 'tributaries' made me think. I don't hear a coherent flow but I do hear things going off at tangents (tributaries perhaps). I haven't investigated the other Villa-Lobos quartets largely because there are so many other things I want to listen to - initial impressions are not positive enough for me to follow up with any enthusiasm.
Sorry I'll leave this one to others.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> ^
> Interesting reading the comments in the article ACB posted above.
> Yesterday I listened to the Quatuor Bessler-Reis recording three times and was left unsure of what to think - the comments about a 'flowing brook' and 'tributaries' made me think. I don't hear a coherent flow but I do hear things going off at tangents (tributaries perhaps). I haven't investigated the other Villa-Lobos quartets largely because there are so many other things I want to listen to - initial impressions are not positive enough for me to follow up with any enthusiasm.
> Sorry I'll leave this one to others.


You've summed up my thoughts, but I'm going to persevere.


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## Helgi

This is more or less my first encounter with Villa-Lobos, apart from some stuff I've heard on the radio — a guitar concerto if I'm not mistaken? 

Anyway, I like it and am taking the opportunity to explore his other quartets as well. My experience with 20th century string quartets is a bit limited but I hear things that remind me of other things without being able to quite place it (I should be writing for Gramophone!).

I've been listening to Danubius and Bessler-Reis.


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## Clloydster

I have listened to all 3 of the recordings mentioned here now - just finished the Bessler-Reis recording. And I can't say my thoughts are changed much. It sounds too frenetic to my tastes, and while I can hear some pleasant melodies underneath, they get covered by what sounds to me like the shrieking of (I'm guessing) violins, like what it all starts with. My wife has walked by the office a few times while this is playing, asking if this is what I talked about when I said I wanted to learn more about classical music! But I'm still game - I'll listen to each weeks quartets, but I may take the rest of the week and go back and listen to some of the previous ones that you all have listened to.


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## HenryPenfold

This quartet improves with each listen, but it's not quite 'clicking' with me. It's really only the second movement that I enjoy, and I find the other three movements rather underwhelming. The music is well crafted and has an undercurrent of some appealing tunes, but I don't feel it has the same level of inspiration as some of Villa-Lobos' middle quartets, for example #6 (Merl has mentioned the early quartets, but I can't remember much about them and need to invest some listening time).


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## Merl

Sorry to sound negative, Gucci. I really rate the earlier quartets so thanks for pointing me in their direction. I've gotta say that this one isn't for me but I've listened to the first 6 V-L quartets twice and I'm really enjoying some of them so everyone's a winner, in my book. I'm currently finishing off one of my reviews for a quartet covered before I came to this thread so I'll blog it and post a link when I'm finished. It's took me about 2 months due to the high quality and huge number of recordings of other quartets posted here, since. You lot have been working my ears and musical vocabulary hard. Swines! :cheers:


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## Carmina Banana

I have not been able to listen as much this week as I would like (darn work!), but my early impressions are: 
This quartet seems like it could equally be called a suite, even though it is only four movements. Each one seems so different and seems to be trying out some new idea and mood. There isn't as much working out through formal processes. The piece feels more like a series of scenes. Having said that, the movements are laid out and labelled like traditional quartet movements so I think he was definitely following the classical model.
I sense that conflict that many composers had between traditional European "classical" music and folk music. At times he is trying out modern compositional techniques--Bartok, maybe touches of Hindemith, etc.--and at times he is incorporating folk rhythms and styles. All of the elements don't seem to come together in a happy family, but there are a lot of interesting combinations of styles and I always enjoy that.
Future plans for me include listening to more of these quartets and other music by VL, and learning a bit more about his life and milieu.


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## Burbage

As we had a head-start this week, my Friday thoughts have arrived early. I would apologise, but it's really nothing to do with me and, besides, I'm sure the timing won't be the only cause for complaint, so here they are:

Earsense lists 109 works for string quartet that were written in 1953. Their authors include Ernest Bloch, Irwin Swack, Gyorgy Ligeti and Heuwell Tircuit, reminding us that some the world is not yet ready for, while others just aren't ready for the world.

Villa-Lobos, along with his 14th quartet, arguably occupies at least one of those categories. As has been tactfully suggested by several in the preceding discussion, the quartet doesn't quite click. And nor, it seems, did Villa-Lobos.

Villa-Lobos's father had, through a stroke of luck, been classically educated, leaving him with the ability to hold down a job as a librarian and indulge a fondness for proper music. This appreciation he passed on to his son, Heitor, by way of a little instruction in the cello and exposure to chamber music at home. When little Heitor was only 12, however, he upped and died, leaving his son with little to live on but the expensive tastes of his social superiors.

An interest in classical music, even an aptitude for it, is of little use without the wherewithal to study. Nevertheless, Heitor did his best. His best involved mixing with street musicians and, after working as an office runner, scraping enough for evening classes in which he learnt about Wagner and Puccini and Saint-Saens. He dropped the classes soon enough, presumably for reasons of cost, but he'd learnt enough to get paid to play cello with a theatre group and to carry on composing in his spare time, while keeping an eye on the European scene, especially the distant upstart Debussy.

Persistence paid off slowly, as it always does (persistence that pays off quickly is more generally known as 'luck', and Villa-Lobos was mostly short of that). Either way, after around fifteen years of scribbling and pestering he began to get his compositions performed in the salons of Rio and, thuswisely, came to the attention to the right sort of people. In the fullness of time he risked what was probably most of his cash (unless it was someone else's) on a trip to Paris, where he seems to have had a miserable time, finding he didn't fit, and falling out with Cocteau, who said his music was derivative. Which, at this point, it seems to have been. Miserable though this experience must have been, some reckon it was the making of him.

His return to Brazil was defiant, rather than triumphant. From now on, rather than mimicking his European peers, he'd become the national composer of Brazil, fusing the classical with the demotic in a way that the sneering French could never understand, and travelling, at least in his mind, widely through the backwaters and byways of his country, much like Bartok might have done, if Bartok had had an imaginary cart. It was a bold move. Rather than sanding his rough edges, the square peg aimed to change the shape of the hole.

If Villa-Lobos had any luck at all, it was that this was a politically-convenient time for nationalism. Although, to be fair, there aren't many times when it isn't. Either way, the strategy clearly worked, though I'd guess it took more effort and persistence than he'd admit. He certainly seems to have above-average levels of self-belief, but necessity can do that. For those who've experienced it, poverty is generally a more potent motive for industry than, say, a passion for real-estate or a burning desire to change the face of fast-moving consumer goods.

If I were to hazard a reason why Villa-Lobos wrote his 14th Quartet it wouldn't be because he'd received a commission (though he had). I'd suggest it was more because he had to. It was part of the persona he'd created, the Pucciniesque caricature of a great composer that stares out from all those photographs. He'd carved a niche and, trapped in his own legend, couldn't do anything else. 

I don't think many would argue that Villa-Lobos was a flawlessly great composer, or that he didn't gift his works with a dose of the slapdash. To my ears, the 14th is a fairly typical example. It has interest, and will bear repeated listenings, but it won't necessarily reward them. Like Villa-Lobos himself, it lies in an uneasy, ungainly space of compromise and, in short, doesn't quite fit. And, as others have suggested, neither do its constituent parts.

That said, it is what it is. Villa-Lobos made his own rules, breaking from the tyranny of Paris and Vienna, and perhaps I should be listening to it on its own terms, rather than by what I've been taught to expect by Europe.

I have tried that, as thoroughly as I could. For, as well as listening to the Cuarteto Latinamericano via YouTube and Earsense in the 14th, a good half-dozen times, I've also listened to the 13th and 15th and, from my own haphazard collections of recordings, plucked from shelf-ends and bargain-buckets like so many lottery tickets, the concertos for harmonica, piano and guitar (not all at the same time, sadly) and a hatful of the Bachianas, and the only thing I can safely say, without fear of contradiction, is that the experience has taken some time.


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## Merl

I've been revisiting some of the first quartets listened to here (as I missed a few of them) and here are my blogged thoughts on Brahms' 1st quartet recordings see link below). This is the culmination of a few months of solid listening.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3461-brahms-string-quartet-1-a.html


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## Allegro Con Brio

I'm somewhat surprised that this selection has generally received only a tepid reaction, as I enjoyed it quite a bit. Granted, it isn't the kind of music that is so outstanding that I'd want to return to it time and again, but it's a wonderfully crafted piece that doesn't outstay its welcome at all. I love works with strong folk-music influences as I'm interested in how the artistic/cultural spirit of a people can find expression through the techniques of art music (which is why I rate Dvorak so highly). I love the rhythmic vitality, the seamless alternation between hard and soft-edged harmonies, brusque figurations and calm lyricism. The slow movement really stands out to me as a perfect little gem. Since my listening time is somewhat limited this week, I've only listened twice, but my interest has really been piqued in the rest of his output, and I'll probably be sampling some more of the quartets and possibly the Bachianas Brasilieras next week. Yet another fascinating addition to the incredibly diverse list of works in this humble genre that this thread has brought my attention to. Oh, and I vastly prefer the virtuosic elan and vigor of the Latin American Quartet to the comparatively inert, milquetoast Danubius.

Next week's honors go to *StevehamNY*!


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## StevehamNY

Of the few recordings of this week's quartet, I find the album covers to largely be in the "do no harm" category, as they say in the publishing business. Meaning they do the job of communicating the contents, and maybe even a certain amount of the personality, but without making enough of a statement that the cover alone makes you check out what's inside (i.e. if you weren't already looking for it).

The one cover I like the most is probably this one from the Chant du Monde set of the Latinoamericanos, because it reminds me very much of a Garcia Marquez book cover:









But now that I have all of the suspects in the drawing room, your intrepid cover sleuth did uncover one mystery this week. Take a look at this cover for Brilliant's complete set of the Latinoamericanos:









Now look at this complete set of the Ahmed Saygun* quartets, played by the Quatuor Danel, on CPO:









Not the first time the same piece of art has been used on two different covers, I know, and because both sets came out around the same time, it's very possible neither company knew about the duplication until the sets were in stores. But this painting is "Blick in eine Gasse" (View into an Alley), by August Macke. He painted it in 1914, on a trip to Tunis. As in Tunisia, one of the countries from the former Ottoman Empire where a man wearing a fez is a very common sight. And you will agree that the one element in this painting that immediately draws the eye is that fez, am I right?

You know where else you see a man wearing a fez? Other Ottoman countries like Morocco and Turkey. In fact, you want to start an argument, go to Turkey and ask anyone there where the fez was invented. While you're at it, ask that same person who's the most beloved Turkish composer in history. He'll probably say Ahmed Saygun*.

So... okay, maybe not the crime of the century and I probably didn't need to make you all assemble in the drawing room, but seriously, what the hell is this artwork doing on a set of quartets by a Brazilian?

(*These Saygun quartets, if you haven't heard them, are outstanding, especially the first and second. I'm almost tempted to choose one of them for next week, but no, I'm already committed to my choice and I've been hard at work boiling the cabbage and beets!)


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## Kreisler jr

I have no streaming, so the only option for me is the Cuarteto Latinoamericano I got in the Brilliant box. I might have listened once to some of the discs in that box before but never really dug into it and had no recollections. 
So now #14. I listened several times now and also to a few other quartets from the series. It is a nice but not outstanding piece. Like some others, I find the slow movement with the fugato and the contrasting lyrical section the most convincing. I also like the scherzo with the glissando effect but the finale seems a bit superfluous, maybe a 3-movement-form with a fusion of scherzo and finale would have been more convincing. So I also agree with someone above who said it is a bit suite-like, not a very unified piece. I don't find it all that "folksy" but then I don't know anything about Brazilian folk music.
As the 3rd quartet (from 1916) happens on the same disc, I found this a bit more immediately appealing and a more coherent piece but it is very obviously indebted to Debussy and Ravel. (With dipping into other discs of the box, I seem to find the earlier pieces a bit better but this is too early.) 
In any case while neither of the V-L quartets I listened to will make any best-of-list for me, it was certainly worth getting finally a bit more into that box and I will certainly keep listening until I am through with all and can maybe distinguish at least some of them.


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## Clloydster

Looking forward to next week's quartet. In the meantime, I'm working my way through Pianozach's lengthy list of works he thinks are good starting points for newbies. It is fairly light on string quartets - are those not considered good entry points for people new to classical music?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Clloydster said:


> Looking forward to next week's quartet. In the meantime, I'm working my way through Pianozach's lengthy list of works he thinks are good starting points for newbies. It is fairly light on string quartets - are those not considered good entry points for people new to classical music?


String quartets are a MUST, if you ask me! Maybe string quartets are not the most famous, since orchestra-music has more famous themes. The first string quartet I ever heard (if I remember right) was "the Hunt" by Mozart and I still love it.


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## Kreisler jr

I believe even many long-time listeners of classical music find string quartets "hard", either because of the "wiry" (in some cases) of the solo strings and/or because many of these works have the reputation of being "difficult" (above all the "late Beethoven quartets") So even for chamber music, more often "mixed ensembles", like Schubert's "Trout quintet" are recommended for beginners.

While there is some grain of truth there that quartets can be a challenge, I think this is an exaggeration and an open minded listener can get into quartets as well as into symphonies or violin sonatas. 
(And if I had to pick one genre I could only listen to, it would probably be string quartets because there are more incredibly interesting and moving masterpieces here than anywhere else...)

A typical list of beginner-friendly string quartets would be for example:

Dvorak: Quartet F major "American" op.96
Schubert d minor "Death and Maiden"
Ravel
Debussy
Haydn: "Rider" op.74/3 g minor, "Lark" op.64/5 D major, "Fifths" d minor op.76/2, "Emperor" op.76/3 C major, "Sunrise" op.76/4 B flat major
Mozart "Hunt" K 458, "Dissonances" K 465
Beethoven op.59/3 C major. But I am not so fond of this one.. I'd rather go with his first and his last op.18/1 and op.135, both F major.

Feel free to ask more specifically; the best starting point is usually pieces by composers you already like from other music (not a very deep advice )


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## StevehamNY

When I first showed up here, I hinted that you'd be getting a steady diet of борщ* when my turn came around. So shall you have, and as I look at the master list of quartets covered so far, I see only four Russian composers (five if you count Weinberg, who moved to Russia when he was 20 years old). The one most glaring omission is the author of what the ear sense overview linked below calls "the first noteworthy work of Russian chamber music."

Yes, it's finally time for *Tchaikovsky's String Quartet #1*, aka "The Accordian."

https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Pyotr-Tchaikovsky-String-Quartet-No-1-in-D-major-Op-11-Accordion/






It was written in 1871, his first quartet essentially by necessity, as he couldn't afford to engage an orchestra for his first all-Tchaikovsky concert at the Moscow Conservatory (and his buddy, the first violinist of the Russian Musical Society Quartet, offered to play for free). And of course, the second movement (_Andante Cantabile_) has taken on a life of its own, later transcribed for cello and orchestra, among other configurations. It was this movement that reportedly brought Tolstoy to tears at its debut.

When Russia's greatest composer** makes Russia's greatest novelist*** cry in public, that's a quartet we need to listen to this week!

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this one.

* борщ=borscht, a big pot of which I will be making today in commemoration (actually a modified version with brisket in it, and it is amazing)
** I love Shostakovich's music as much as anyone here, but is this point debatable? 
*** Same as above, but with Dostoyevski, whose books I also love. But come on, it's Tolstoy.


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## Kreisler jr

я люблю зту квартету, спасибо!


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## Merl

Woo-hoo I've been waiting for one of the Tchaikovsly SQs so thanks Steve. IMO, poor Russian Pete gets too little love these days and especially his quartets, which I think are all excellent. I have a pre-prepared list (from. A few months ago - I k ew someone would pick this soon) on 'the pad' but I've just realised I've missed a few off so give me a few mins to update it. There's one performance of this I've always viewed as the gold standard but must admit Ive not stepped outside of this classic performance too much, apart from 3 or 4 other a counts so I'm looking for word to finding a few new ones. I've also had to put another previous quartet from the thread on the backburner as this quartet deserves my full attention. Luckily I was only playing this the other day so it's a quarter that's fresh in the memory (I also have two recordings on the car USB - the 'reference' one and a recent find that is also terrific). Should be great getting stuck into this.


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## Kreisler jr

Another brief comment on the Villa Lobos. While I am still not completely convinced by the quartet #14 I want to express thanks for the suggestion because it made me listen eventually to all of his quartets (or will, I think, two are still left on the stack). But I am a bit puzzled about the choice. The first 5-6 quartets (I am not familiar enough with the bunch yet) seem considerably more "characteristic", including folksy atmospheres whereas #14 (like the other "late" ones seem an odd mix of moderate 20th century modernism (not quite so modern anymore in the 1950s) and the more characteristic strains of Villa Lobos. Whoever suggested #14, may one ask why you did pick this? Is it a personal favorite?

As for Tchaikovsky #1; I have only two recordings, the 1970s Borodin (BMG/Melodiya) and the recentish Klenke (a young all female German? ensemble).


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## FastkeinBrahms

What a delight! I listened to the Emerson Quartet and was really pleasantly surprised. They have a gorgeous, warm tone in the lyrical parts, of which there are plenty, not only in the Andante Cantabile, which Tchaikovsky obviously based on the American classic "On the Isle of May", but also in the two outer movements. And of course they play the incredibly virtuoso parts in the last movement brilliantly. Generally, I find their playing a bit on the cold, raspy side, however, not here! 

On the piece, I am looking forward to the comments of more knowledgeable participants. I just want to say that all four movements are great, wonderful tunes, a great variation of moods, perfect balance between the movements and fiendishly difficult to play, I guess. Maybe that is a reason why this quartet is not as popular (except the Andante) as it should be. Superb choice!


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## Merl

Only around 60 performances of this one. Lol. The Borodins have done at least 4 and there's even a free live one on YouTube, additionally. This is gonna be a busy week. Luckily I'm off Monday.


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## StevehamNY

Kreisler jr said:


> я люблю зту квартету, спасибо!


Пожалуйста! Наслаждаться!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yay, I’ve been waiting for someone to pick this one, and in fact I was just thinking about it yesterday Tchaikovsky is possibly the most renowned composer that I don’t much care for - I must admit that I find virtually all of his works with orchestra to be quite weak - but I do think that he was a very good composer of chamber music and opera (if you don’t think opera is your thang, try Eugene Onegin), genres where his struggles with long-term symphonic planning are not as important, as he can just turn on the golden melodies and let ‘em flow. A shame he didn’t consider himself accomplished in the chamber field, as I very much like the Piano Trio, Souvenir de Florence, and this work, which I have loved from the first time I heard it played by the Gabrieli Quartet on a 1962 Decca album paired with the Borodin Quartet’s take on the Borodin 2nd and Shosty 8th. That second movement captures the essence of Russian Romanticism in a nutshell, methinks.


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## Bwv 1080

After trying Brodsky and Emerson, going with









Also has Prok 2 from a few weeks bak and Syzmanowski no 2


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## SearsPoncho

FastkeinBrahms said:


> What a delight! I listened to the Emerson Quartet and was really pleasantly surprised. They have a gorgeous, warm tone in the lyrical parts, of which there are plenty, not only in the Andante Cantabile, which Tchaikovsky obviously based on the American classic "On the Isle of May", but also in the two outer movements. And of course they play the incredibly virtuoso parts in the last movement brilliantly. Generally, I find their playing a bit on the cold, raspy side, however, not here!
> 
> On the piece, I am looking forward to the comments of more knowledgeable participants. I just want to say that all four movements are great, wonderful tunes, a great variation of moods, perfect balance between the movements and fiendishly difficult to play, I guess. Maybe that is a reason why this quartet is not as popular (except the Andante) as it should be. Superb choice!


The Andante Cantabile is based on an American tune?

I was just listening to Tchaikovsky's great Piano Trio! If I expanded the Mt. Rushmore of composers to 6, Tchaikovsky would make it. He admired Mozart, and just like his idol, excelled in nearly every subgenre of classical music, although I don't know if he wrote any sacred/choral music, and I would have liked some more piano music (he did write some very good piano music, but it's not played much). To put it simply: I love Tchaikovsky.

I have the Emerson Quartet recording, which is on a very good cd with Borodin's 2nd and Dvorak's "American" quartet. I've always enjoyed it, although I might slightly prefer Borodin's 2nd; that's hardly a knock on the Tchaikovsky because Borodin's 2nd is a romantic masterpiece.


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## Clloydster

I love Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony, his 1st Piano Concerto, his Violin Concerto, and, of course, the Nutcracker - so I'm excited to try out his first string quartet. I'm looking forward to this week - now I need to go select some to download. I have a membership at Classics Today, so I'll probably pull recommendations from there, but looks like I also need to try the Emerson Quartet.


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## Clloydster

Alright, I went to Apple Music and pulled everything I could. I couldn't find the Borodin Quartet on Teldec or EMI that I saw highly recommended at Classics Today, but these are the ones I ended up with to listen to this week:
Heath Quartet - Harmonia Mundi
New Haydn Quartet - Naxos
Emerson Quartet - DG
Borodin Quartet - Melodiya
Borodin Quartet - Urania
Escher String Quartet - BIS
Orava Quartet - DG
Shostakovich Quartet - Olympia
New Philharmonic Quartet - HD Classical
Gabrieli Quartet - Decca

Probably going to overdo it, but we'll see. Just by virtue of it being the first that I found, the Heath Quartet is up first. Looks newer.


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## Clloydster

I added the Szymanowski Quartet as well. Why not? 11 versions to listen to in a week (actually getting a head start today.


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## StevehamNY

Re: the connection between the second movement of this quartet (written in 1871) and the American standard "The Isle of May," it appears that the latter was published in 1940 (music by Andre Kostelanetz, lyrics by Mack David). So that would suggest it was Tchaikovsky providing the inspiration for the American songwriter.

Here's Connee Boswell singing the song that same year, with Victor Young and his Orchestra:


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## Bwv 1080

Also the ‘Volga Boatman’ riff features prominently in the adagio theme


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> Re: the connection between the second movement of this quartet (written in 1871) and the American standard "The Isle of May," it appears that the latter was published in 1940 (music by Andre Kostelanetz, lyrics by Mack David). So that would suggest it was Tchaikovsky providing the inspiration for the American songwriter.
> 
> Here's Connee Boswell singing the song that same year, with Victor Young and his Orchestra:


Sorry, I am not very good with emojis, should have put in the "I am joking" one.


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## StevehamNY

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Sorry, I am not very good with emojis, should have put in the "I am joking" one.


All good! For all I knew, it could have been an American folk song as old as the Civil War, in which case the influence could have gone either way!

(And I'm the writer who totally whiffed on the _Clockwork Orange_ reference a couple weeks ago, so I doubt anything will surpass that for the rest of this calendar year.)


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## Merl

Focusing on a few I hadn't heard, I checked out the Escher, St. Lawrence and Endellion recordings. I will be returning to the enjoyable *Eschers* but the *Endellion* Quartet play all movements far too slowly, even if they do play very well. I almost fell asleep in the broader than Broadway first movement. The *St. Lawrence* quartet play well enough but there's many better out there so unless I have a change of heart I doubt this one will make it into my final summary. Nice to hear some very different accounts, though.


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## SearsPoncho

Am I wrong in believing that Tchaikovsky was one of the more cosmopolitan Russian composers, musically speaking? This might be tough for our tireless Merl because I'm not sure what constitutes idiomatic Tchaikovsky. He uses the traditional classical forms of the Austro-German masters and, of course, there are also the great tunes, colors and "orchestration."


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## Bwv 1080

SearsPoncho said:


> Am I wrong in believing that Tchaikovsky was one of the more cosmopolitan Russian composers, musically speaking? This might be tough for our tireless Merl because I'm not sure what constitutes idiomatic Tchaikovsky. He uses the traditional classical forms of the Austro-German masters and, of course, there are also the great tunes, colors and "orchestration."


Yes, Mussorgsky and the rest of the Russian Five thought he was a poser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky_and_The_Five


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## Merl

It doesn't really matter how big of a poser he was, I like my Tchaikovsky 1st quartet served thus:

* 1st violin to the fore in the 2nd movement. You don't want a glorious choon like that buried.
* not too schmaltzy
* last 2 movements with some bite
* Not too slow. Ambling through this makes it drag regardless of the beauty of some Quartet's playing.
* nice raspy violins

Omission of the above are NOT dealbreakers but accounts that can tick these off will always score highly with me. I'll consider any style as long as the performance isn't crawling along at a speed that frankly takes the p*ss. After that, the above properties are favourable but not essential. With this in mind, I've just ruled out the *Duke Quartet, *who have neither enough clout and bite (especially) and aren't distinct enough in this repertoire. I've heard enough recordings of this one over the years to know what I like in it and unfortunately it's not the Dukes (who play the Shosty 8th on the same disc much better).


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## Kreisler jr

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, Mussorgsky and the rest of the Russian Five thought he was a poser
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky_and_The_Five


"westernized wuss" is probably more precise than "poser"... I have sympathy for Borodin (a pity he had not more spare time for composing) and Mussorgsky was fascinating and the most daring of them, but overall Tchaikovsky (although I am tired of or never liked some of his famous compositions) seems by far the most accomplished and capable of all the Russian composers of his generation (or the forerunner Glinka). 
Personally, he was neither happy in Russia nor in Europe, but technically/musically he had mastered everything he needed. And already in a rather early piece like that first quartet he seems to fuse effortlessly the "slavic" element with both the French salon and the German romantic classicism. It is such a charming piece, unpretentious, well balanced, not too long. It also shows that he did not necessarily need flashy orchestration (I think some of his orchestral works suffer from replacing thematic development with simply changing orchestral colors although not to the extent some of Rimsky's do) to succeed.


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## Merl

BTW, as I indicated there's 4 Borodin quartet recordings available. I thought there was an extra one on the 60th anmiversary cd too but its not actually a full quartet performance, just the the 2nd movement. The 4 recordings are:

+ Melodiya / Chandos Historical (1965)
+ Aulos / EMI / Melodiya (1979)
+ Medici Arts (DVD 1987) 
+ Teldec / Warner Classics (1993)

I'll discuss all these in a day or so. 

I also omitted other rarer ones (below) but most astonishingly the 2012 Prazak account that I have on the HD. 

Gaia (2013)
Anton (1993)
Schneiderhan (date ?) 
Herzfeld (1980)
Roth (1940)
Salvatore, Margaret. Hoffman & Hoffman (1989)
Beethoven (1946)
Virtuoso (1924)
Israel (1990)
Oistrakh, Bonderenko, Terian & Knushevitsky (1946)
Steude (2010)

Additionally the Hungarian quartet recorded the quartet twice (1952 / 1954) as did the Prague quartet (1968 /1996). 

That should cover it. :lol:


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## Clloydster

Thus far I have listened to the Heath Quartet and the New Haydn Quartet. I can't speak to which instrument was out front, or proper vs improper tempi, but I enjoyed both of these. I think the final two movements of this quartet are my favorite - I think it finishes better than it begins. I was expecting a little more from the 2nd movement, the Andante Cantabile - I still felt it was lovely, but I think I prefer the slow movement from Beethoven's Razumovsky #1 quartet. Both of these sounded wonderful - I listened to both on my noise canceling headphones. Nothing sounded this time like it was recorded in a cave.


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## Josquin13

Whenever I think of Tchaikovsky, I am reminded of something that the British composer Sir Harrison Birtwistle told actor Simon Callow: He advised Callow not to listen to Tchaikovsky's music because it was "bad for one's health". I think that's a bit harsh, considering that I'm not sure that the four (or was it five?) hours of Sir Harrison's incidental music to Peter Hall's National Theater production of Aeschylus's Oresteia was entirely good for my health (back in the 1980s). Besides, Tchaikovsky's ballets are wonderful music, especially Swan Lake, and I don't think they're detrimental to anyone's health (at least, let's hope not in regards to the frequently performed, The Nutcracker). But I don't listen to the ballets that often (only very rarely these days).

& I understand Birtwistle's concern (along with his sense of humor), and would agree that listening to an endless diet of Late Romantic Russian music isn't so good for one's musical growth, which probably does factor into a person's health (although I'm only half serious, or maybe 1/3 serious).

However, I don't know Tchaikovsky's three string quartets. I have the Borodin Quartet's EMI/Melodiya recordings on LP, but I've only listened to them once, when I first bought the set back in the 1980s, and I can't remember the quartets at all, except for the beautiful, if overly sentimental? "Andante cantabile" movement from his String Quartet No. 1: 



. Which is sort of Tchaikovsky's equivalent to Barber's Adagio for Strings, in that it was likewise first conceived as part of a string quartet, and then later orchestrated (although Barber's Adagio is less soppy, and for me, quite moving). So, I'll have to report back. But I will say that the Borodins are a quartet with strong late romantic leanings, interpretatively, & they're Russian, so they're probably an excellent choice in this repertory (if the late 1970s Melodiya sound engineering is tolerable).

Here too is Leonard Bernstein conducting the orchestral version of Tchaikovsky's Andante cantibile movement, which is even soppier, and in fairness to Tchaikovsky, probably not what he had in mind: 



. Nor do the Borodins play it in as smaltzy a way as Bernstein conducts the piece.

I know I've not been commenting lately, but I have been listening to each week's quartet selection, and reading along. I just haven't had much to say. (Plus, I've been writing lengthy posts elsewhere on TC, which takes time away from my participation here.) Nevertheless, thanks for all the quartet selections, everyone. I've enjoyed them.

I will say that Shostakovich's SQ No. 2 had a pretty warped & ghostly idea about what a waltz is, as it was unlike any waltz I've ever heard--though that wasn't unexpected. I suppose there is a degree of macabre humor in his third movement? I also thought that Shosty's first movement was incredibly imaginative and wildly original. Thanks Henry for the pick.

In addition, I thought that the Dvorak quartet No. 13 was beautiful, and I enjoyed getting to know it (as the work was new to me).

In regards to Beethoven's "Razumovsky" Quartet, Op. 59, No 1, I recall that someone asked about HIP performances, in addition to the Kuijken Quartet's?, and I wanted to point out that the Gewandhaus Quartett are actually HIP in their Beethoven cycle. Indeed, the group claims to play in a string tradition that has been passed down to them as part of an unbroken chain from the original members of the quartet, who premiered Beethoven's quartets & knew the composer.

So, I listen to (1) the Kuijkens or Gewandhaus Quartett when I want to hear the textural clarity of an HIP performance on modern instruments: https://www.allmusic.com/album/beethoven-the-string-quartets-mw0001402261 (as well as to a lesser degree, the Suske Quartett, who came out of the same Leipzig tradition, considering that their 1st violinist Karl Suske was a former member of the Gewandhaus Quartett: 



), (2) the Alban Berg 1st studio account on EMI, when I want hear excellent intonation and a high standard of ensemble playing: 



, (3) Quartetto Italiano when I wish to hear beautifully expressive adagios: 



, and (4) the Takacs and Smetana Quartets, when I want to hear interpretations of considerable depth and insight: 



.

I also thought that the slow movement in this quartet was an example--and maybe the first example in Beethoven's quartet cycle?--of the composer moving towards the intimate, deeply personal interior world of his late quartets. (By the way, there's also an excellent recording of the Op. 59, No. 3 "Razumovsky" quartet by the Schuppanzigh Quartett, who are one of my favorite period ensembles: 



.)

As for Villa Lobos's quartet, it gave me the feeling of being a pastiche (or imitation), but it isn't a pastiche, is it? Don't get me wrong, I didn't dislike the music, it's a good quartet, & I'm glad to have heard it. Yet, I find that it has left me a bit on the fence about whether I want to pursue getting to know Villa-Lobos' other quartets. Maybe I will, since others here seem to think they're worthwhile.

Lastly, I hope that no one here suffers from a bout of "Birtwistle's disease" this week. Personally, I'm looking forward to reacquainting myself with Tchaikovsky's String Quartet No. 1, & perhaps I'll listen to all three quartets. By the way, there's also his Sextet No. 2, entitled "Souvenir de Florence", to revisit, as well. The Borodin Quartet recorded this work a number of times, and it was included in my Melodiya LP set with the 3 string quartets, as I recall. Here is their 1950s recording with Genrikh Talalyan and Mstislav Rostropovich, which has been reissued by Chandos: 



. (Although I don't think that's the same recording as the performance in my EMI/Meloydia LP set. & I see that they also recorded the "Souvenir" for Teldec.)


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## FastkeinBrahms

The Chandos Historical Borodin is absolutely glorious. I really liked the Emersons, but this is such a dark, grandiose reading! I really loved how they do the first movement, where I do not quite agree with Merl 's assessment that slowness is not the right approach. I just love how they slow down in a meditative stasis and almost stop the music at points, as if time had stood still. Their Andante Cantabile is incredibly beautiful, completely unsentimental, this piece is not schmaltzy by itself. Again, I liked the Emersons, but the Borodins present a much larger and fierier picture here.


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## Bwv 1080

StevehamNY said:


> All good! For all I knew, it could have been an American folk song as old as the Civil War, in which case the influence could have gone either way!
> 
> (And I'm the writer who totally whiffed on the _Clockwork Orange_ reference a couple weeks ago, so I doubt anything will surpass that for the rest of this calendar year.)


Actually think it was this civil war song that Tchaikovsky used


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## FastkeinBrahms

Bwv 1080 said:


> Actually think it was this civil war song that Tchaikovsky used


This is the American answer to the Canadian lumberjack song by Monty Python, no doubt!


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## StevehamNY

Bwv 1080 said:


> Actually think it was this civil war song that Tchaikovsky used


WHERE ELSE, I ask you, in the entirety of the Internet, could you find a thread containing such in-depth analysis of Tchaikovsky's First String Quartet... and then this?


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## Merl

Lol, I will never hear Russian Pete's SQ1 in the same way again! Totally derailing the excellent silliness, I'm gonna be all serious and rule out a cd I have, as it's a dreadful recording. The *Shostakovich quartet *(who I have a lot of time for and who produced an excellent Shosty cycle) recorded the first 2 quartets for Olympia back in the day but the recorded sound is really weird. It's boxy, phases in and out and even sounds over-congested and slightly distorted. Such a shame as the performance is a fine one. Even on the Alto re-release it still sounds like utter crap. I never play the 1st quartet from my original Olympia cd but the 2nd is thankfully much better recorded. I'm also throwing out the Amadeus quartet as they really don't have a clue on this one.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> Lol, I will never hear Russian Pete's SQ1 in the same way again! Totally derailing the excellent silliness, I'm gonna be all serious and rule out a cd I have, as it's a dreadful recording. The *Shostakovich quartet *(who I have a lot of time for and who produced an excellent Shosty cycle) recorded the first 2 quartets for Olympia back in the day but the recorded sound is really weird. It's boxy, phases in and out and even sounds over-congested and slightly distorted. Such a shame as the performance is a fine one. Even on the Alto re-release it still sounds like utter crap. I never play the 1st quartet from my original Olympia cd but the 2nd is thankfully much better recorded. I'm also throwing out the Amadeus quartet as they really don't have a clue on this one.


Funny, I hardly see German or Austrian quartets doing this, even though two of the musicians Tchaikovsky wrote this for where from Vienna and near Hanover respectively (the latter, whose name I have forgotten, the Cellist he wrote the Rococo Variations for), and two Czechs - plenty of Czech recordings, and probably good ones.


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## Merl

Incidentally, here's a free live 128k performance of the quartet by the the Borromeo Quartet that I got from the Petrucci Music Library (IMSLP) . It's actually quite good. Grab it and have a listen. It's not split into movements but the timings are below if you need them. I've put it in my Dropbox as it's way easier to grab from there (it was a ballache downloading it from the site).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ld452gkpv6l9bma/tchaikovsky%20string%20quartet%201%20borromeo.mp3?dl=0

Timings 
1st movement 00:00 - 11:14
2nd movement 11:20 - 17 :26
3rd movement 17:32 - 21:30
4th movement 21:34 - 28:41 (15 secs applause)


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm somewhat surprised that this selection has generally received only a tepid reaction, as I enjoyed it quite a bit.


I was surprised myself but at the same time not all that surprised either. It's a huge curve ball compared to the previous selections that've been made since I've joined the thread. Like you I rate this quartet very highly, but I think it leaves a lot of boxes unchecked for the subjective taste of this thread's audience because it's not terribly wide in scope and also doesn't undergo rigorous and neatly structured development. On top of that, I think the stylistic idiom of the quartet itself was a bit of putting to some people. But to each their own. My main goal was to open people's horizons up to Villa-Lobos and I accomplished that, so I'm happy. 

To answer Kreisler Jr.'s question as to why I specifically picked #14: yes, it's a personal favorite and in fact I like the modernist edge which some posters described as Bartokian. In addition, I was going for something a little off the beaten path. Sure, #14 may not be the strongest of the bunch, but it's a wonderful piece so who else is going to talk about it? I also find each movement to be very charismatic and lyrical and I love that aforementioned razor sharp edge it brings. That fugal canon in the Adagio, which is strangely mysterious and serene at the same time, is a movement I find quite memorable. The folk influence is still quite there (beautiful tango-like and samba rhythms, which is probably not accurate terminology) and blends with the modernist dissonance in a way that's really interesting, then permeated with soaring, lyrical melodies. I noticed a pattern that people took more of a liking to the earlier quartets than this one. To be perfectly honest, I haven't listen to #1-5 yet but I've heard #6 and #7. I think those, especially #7, have more overlap with what people in this thread are looking for. I might actually pick #7 whenever it's my turn again in a couple months as I really love that one too.

I listened to Tchaikovsky #1 played by the Borodins this morning and was extremely impressed! Incidentally, I listened to and greatly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's 3rd SQ not too long ago and was considering using that but ended up deciding on the Villa-Lobos. The opening movement is a wild ride, I love the way he is able to pull off these dense contrapuntal textures but retain pristine clarity. The part writing is really imaginative and I always find something really remarkable about even the subsidiary parts at any given moment. Also as goes without saying (yet I'll say it), Tchaikovsky's knack for melody shines through here. Not only are his melodies earworms but they're also very touching. I was definitely very touched by the expressive heartfelt quality of each movement. I'll give this another listen and make another post.


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## HenryPenfold

GucciManeIsTheNewWebern said:


> I was surprised myself but at the same time not all that surprised either. It's a huge curve ball compared to the previous selections that've been made since I've joined the thread. Like you I rate this quartet very highly, but I think it leaves a lot of boxes unchecked for the subjective taste of this thread's audience because it's not terribly wide in scope and also doesn't undergo rigorous and neatly structured development. On top of that, I think the stylistic idiom of the quartet itself was a bit of putting to some people. But to each their own. My main goal was to open people's horizons up to Villa-Lobos and I accomplished that, so I'm happy.
> 
> To answer Kreisler Jr.'s question as to why I specifically picked #14: yes, it's a personal favorite and in fact I like the modernist edge which some posters described as Bartokian. In addition, I was going for something a little off the beaten path. Sure, #14 may not be the strongest of the bunch, but it's a wonderful piece so who else is going to talk about it? I also find each movement to be very charismatic and lyrical and I love that aforementioned razor sharp edge it brings. That fugal canon in the Adagio, which is strangely mysterious and serene at the same time, is a movement I find quite memorable. The folk influence is still quite there (beautiful tango-like and samba rhythms, which is probably not accurate terminology) and blends with the modernist dissonance in a way that's really interesting, then permeated with soaring, lyrical melodies. I noticed a pattern that people took more of a liking to the earlier quartets than this one. To be perfectly honest, I haven't listen to #1-5 yet but I've heard #6 and #7. I think those, especially #7, have more overlap with what people in this thread are looking for. I might actually pick #7 whenever it's my turn again in a couple months as I really love that one too.


Thank you for the further details about your choice - sheds some interesting light. I don't think the lukewarm reception had anything to do with thread-members' expectations, because even in recent times, we've had a lot of engagement on works as diverse as Ran's SQ #3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"; Berg's Lyric Suite; Dvorak 13 &cetera. I don't think that there is a thread expectation, as such.

I'm not familiar with VL's SQs, only really having listened to 6-11 two or three times, and your choice did prompt me to investigate the rest of them! I have the Latinoamericano set on CD.


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## annaw

I've been absent from the thread for a bit again (after Schubert's Rosamunde I spent quite some time with Schubert's other string quartets, and listened to Mendelssohn's string quartets after that). 

I'm not really familiar with Tchaikovsky's 1st quartet, but I think it's a great pick! It's forceful and driven during the fast passages, and beautifully lyrical during the slower ones. I think that's the way it should be performed as well, because the music speaks for itself rather effectively. It really does not require an excessive amount of sentimentality because that's already an almost inevitable quality of this piece. Because of that, I like the Emerson's recording a lot. It might be controversial (no idea if it is), but their enormous pace and precision makes it very exciting to listen to. Definitely not a boring performance at all, and technically absolutely top-notch, as far as I can tell. Heath quartet has a fantastic sound quality and clarity, is thoroughly enjoyable, and is probably more traditional interpretation compared to the Emerson's. Bartok quartet has a beautiful tone but I personally would prefer more excitement and drive during the Scherzo, which is interestingly accented. I think they are better during the final Allegro, but there are some peculiarities in the instrumental balance (should probably give it another listen sometime), and the accents are still killing the drive a bit. I'm listening to Utrecht quartet's recording at the moment - it has an absolutely fantastic sound, they are expressive and more Romantically emotional. Also, their last movement sounds huge and they play the Scherzo faster than Emersons.


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## Merl

annaw said:


> I've been absent from the thread for a bit again (after Schubert's Rosamunde I spent quite some time with Schubert's other string quartets, and listened to Mendelssohn's string quartets after that).
> 
> I'm not really familiar with Tchaikovsky's 1st quartet, but I think it's a great pick! It's forceful and driven during the fast passages, and beautifully lyrical during the slower ones. I think that's the way it should be performed as well, because the music speaks for itself rather effectively. It really does not require an excessive amount of sentimentality because that's already an almost inevitable quality of this piece. Because of that, I like the Emerson's recording a lot. It might be controversial (no idea if it is), but their enormous pace and precision makes it very exciting to listen to. Definitely not a boring performance at all, and technically absolutely top-notch, as far as I can tell. Heath quartet has a fantastic sound quality and clarity, is thoroughly enjoyable, and is probably more traditional interpretation compared to the Emerson's. Bartok quartet has a beautiful tone but I personally would prefer more excitement and drive during the Scherzo, which is interestingly accented. I think they are better during the final Allegro, but there are some peculiarities in the instrumental balance (should probably give it another listen sometime), and the accents are still killing the drive a bit. I'm listening to Utrecht quartet's recording at the moment - it has an absolutely fantastic sound, they are expressive and more Romantically emotional. Also, their last movement sounds huge and they play the Scherzo faster than Emersons.


I'll be discussing a few of these later but totally agree about the *Bartok* quartet recording . It's not the most riveting of performances and even Tacet's trademark great sound goes missing in places. Perhaps the engineers were falling asleep whilst recording it? Listening next to one of the old 'classic' performances of this quartet the Bartok offer little in response. The Heaths and others are much better. Incidentally, sneaking into the recommended pile is a super-budget Alfred Scholz recording from the *International String Quartet *of New York (as usual, with Scholz, they don't exist). This is very likely members of the New York Philharmonic doing some moonlighting and picking up some beer money (you always get clues in Scholz recordings). Its appeared many times on Pilz, etc over the years but I'd never heard it. It's, in fact, a fine, full account and a nice surprise. It may even be the Melos Quartet (a long story) but whoever it is they can certainly play.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Borodin on Melodiya is afflicted with the classic CSSS (Crappy Soviet Sound Syndrome), but is very listenable if you can get past the crackles and swooshes and you get a performance that is Russian to the core; I can’t even come up with any other adjectives to describe it because the overall style is so special. I agree with annaw that sentimentality is a big no-no in Tchaikovsky; I prefer more “raw,” “windswept” takes on the music (like Mravinsky’s symphony recordings) rather than the “light lollipop” approach. You know, I can actually see the Emersons doing this one pretty well, so I’ll definitely add them to my list.

Relistening to that second movement, I detect the influence of Russian Orthodox liturgical music on that main, hymn-like theme, and I just love how it contrasts with the tangy gypsy melody in the B section. This needs to come off with real heart if the performance is going to be a success.

Even though I like this work very much, I still feel that something is missing in almost every Tchaikovsky piece that I hear, and I can’t put my finger on it. I rarely feel satisfied by his music even if I can appreciate it as being very beautiful. I would never say that I “dislike” it, it just doesn’t fully do it for me. Perhaps it is his penchant for repetition. I realize I’m in the extreme minority here, but I honestly don’t know if I can stomach too many listens to this quartet this week; it sorta feels like eating a slice of the same old plain chocolate cake every time without any frosting or ice cream. However, I absolutely agree that he must be counted as the most accomplished 19thc Russian composer; even though I think Mussorgsky would probably capture that title for me had his output been larger and he had not been such an unfortunate slave to the bottle.


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## Malx

I'll nail my colours to the mast early on this one - I've never been a great lover of Tchaikovsky's chamber music. I have only one performance of this quartet in my collection the *Talich Quartet *on Calliope.
So I tried to clear my mind of past thoughts and have listened to the disc a few times over the last couple of days I have also listened to the wonderfully named *International String Quartet of New York* on Qobuz thanks to prompting from the font of all knowledge on matters string quartet (no prizes for guessing who)!
I now conclude that I am 50% of the way to having a liking for the piece - if I may use a football analogy this is a game of two halves - the Scherzo & Finale I enjoyed much better than I remember but the opening two movements seem to be stuck in the mud of the 1970's Baseball ground (some may get the reference).
I will say that the ISQofNY may shade the Talichs in the first two movements but not enough to convince me at this stage.
If anyone can suggest another recording that combines the elan the Talichs put into the concluding movements with something that makes more of the first half of the piece I will gladly give a listen.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> I'll nail my colours to the mast early on this one - I've never been a great lover of Tchaikovsky's chamber music. I have only one performance of this quartet in my collection the *Talich Quartet *on Calliope.
> So I tried to clear my mind of past thoughts and have listened to the disc a few times over the last couple of days I have also listened to the wonderfully named *International String Quartet of New York* on Qobuz thanks to prompting from the font of all knowledge on matters string quartet (no prizes for guessing who)!
> I now conclude that I am 50% of the way to having a liking for the piece - if I may use a football analogy this is a game of two halves - the Scherzo & Finale I enjoyed much better than I remember but the opening two movements seem to be stuck in the mud of the 1970's Baseball ground (some may get the reference).
> I will say that the ISQofNY may shade the Talichs in the first two movements but not enough to convince me at this stage.
> If anyone can suggest another recording that combines the elan the Talichs put into the concluding movements with something that makes more of the first half of the piece I will gladly give a listen.


Lol, the 'font of all knowledge'! Cheeky bugger. If you want more gusto try the *Novus* Quartet recording, Malx. Btw, I love the reference to the Baseball Ground (I was at the infamous game where the groundsman had to come out and paint the penalty spot on as it was so muddy - that was my very first City away game - we got hammered too). The video of that famous incident is below. I love the guy with his tape measure and bucket (he appears just after the 1min mark).


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## Iota

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm somewhat surprised that this selection has generally received only a tepid reaction, as I enjoyed it quite a bit. Granted, it isn't the kind of music that is so outstanding that I'd want to return to it time and again, but it's a wonderfully crafted piece that doesn't outstay its welcome at all. I love works with strong folk-music influences as I'm interested in how the artistic/cultural spirit of a people can find expression through the techniques of art music (which is why I rate Dvorak so highly). I love the rhythmic vitality, the seamless alternation between hard and soft-edged harmonies, brusque figurations and calm lyricism. The slow movement really stands out to me as a perfect little gem. Since my listening time is somewhat limited this week, I've only listened twice, but my interest has really been piqued in the rest of his output, and I'll probably be sampling some more of the quartets and possibly the Bachianas Brasilieras next week. Yet another fascinating addition to the incredibly diverse list of works in this humble genre that this thread has brought my attention to. Oh, and I vastly prefer the virtuosic elan and vigor of the Latin American Quartet to the comparatively inert, milquetoast Danubius.


Sorry for being out of synch with the quartet being discussed at the moment, but I listened to the Villa Lobos and more or less agree with everything you say here, apart perhaps from the last sentence, as I thought the Danubius played with a kind of highbrow casualness that seemed to suit the nature of the music well. 
I only listened once but I liked its nonchalant character, it seemed undecided as to quite what it wanted to do, or where it wanted to go, in a way, but this felt like a feature rather than a bug, like kicking a ball around a park just because that's what you feel like doing. And as a work that gave the impression of following its own whim, rather than being focussed rigorously on a destination, I personally thought it did so engagingly and with a certain freshness, and just thought I'd register another little cheer in the midst of the lukewarm applause. 
I too will be trying some of the other VL quartets at some point as a result.


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## HenryPenfold

Duplicate post.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Lol, the 'font of all knowledge'! Cheeky bugger. If you want more gusto try the *Novus* Quartet recording, Malx. Btw, I love the reference to the Baseball Ground (I was at the infamous game where the groundsman had to come out and paint the penalty spot on as it was so muddy - that was my very first City away game - we got hammered too). The video of that famous incident is below. I love the guy with his tape measure and bucket (he appears just after the 1min mark).


Bit off topic, but what was the game where the dog ran on the pitch and smacked into Joe Corrigan's knee and he pretended to be mortally wounded?


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## HenryPenfold

An interesting choice, I haven't listened to Tchaikovsky's quartets in a while. I have done my usual and stuck with the recordings I have in my collection, in this case the marvellous Keller quartet. I don't think they match Tchaikovsky's glorious melodious music with the sort of romantic playing that this work begs for. I'll need to try another combo, via streaming.

I'm more familiar with string quartets numbers 2 and 3 for some reason, so I'm eager to explore this one further.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Bit off topic, but what was the game where the dog ran on the pitch and smacked into Joe Corrigan's knee and he pretended to be mortally wounded?


I'm not familiar with that one, Henry. I don't remember it at all.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'm not familiar with that one, Henry. I don't remember it at all.


I don't even support Citeh, but I remember - although my memory told me it was in the 1970s .....

1982?


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I don't even support Citeh, but I remember - although my memory told me it was in the 1970s .....
> 
> 1982?


Not surprised I don't remember it. It was 1982. I didn't go to City between 1981-82 (I had totally fallen out of love with football and discovered the opposite sex, alcohol and rock music around the same time). Trust me to pick 2 years when City got to a cup final and then got relegated the season after. I rekindled my love affair with my local club in 1983 after combining a day where I watched City get destroyed by Keegan at Newcastle, a blind date with a geordie woman I later ended up relocating for and a very drunken night in the Mayfair Club. Those were the days! Amazingly enough that crushing defeat was the catalyst to get me hooked again. I never missed a home game after that till around 1993/94.


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## Merl

To get back on track (apologies for the football sidetrack) I played the Talich, Vermeer and Keller recordings off my HD this morning and neither the Talich or the Keller impressed. The *Talich* did at least improve after a broad and dull opening movement but others are way more impressive. My *Keller* recording didn't register much at all but they are well-drilled. Unfortunately, it's all a bit homogenous a performance for me. The *Vermeers*, on the other hand, play with great conviction.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Not surprised I don't remember it. It was 1982. I didn't go to City between 1981-82 (I had totally fallen out of love with football and discovered the opposite sex, alcohol and rock music around the same time). Trust me to pick 2 years when City got to a cup final and then got relegated the season after. I rekindled my love affair with my local club in 1983 after combining a day where I watched City get destroyed by Keegan at Newcastle, a blind date with a geordie woman I later ended up relocating for and a very drunken night in the Mayfair Club. Those were the days! Amazingly enough that crushing defeat was the catalyst to get me hooked again. I never missed a home game after that till around 1993/94.


This is still broadly on topic, in that I'd very much like to hear how the participants of this thread came to be here, discussing classical string quartets with such insight and affection. I have my own unusual path here (for now, suffice to say that a 20-year-old me would be shocked to hear of this interest in quartets; hell, the me of just two years ago would be a bit surprised), but right now I'm just wondering what it is about this particular corner of the music world that brought you here!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> This is still broadly on topic, in that I'd very much like to hear how the participants of this thread came to be here, discussing classical string quartets with such insight and affection. I have my own unusual path here (for now, suffice to say that a 20-year-old me would be shocked to hear of this interest in quartets; hell, the me of just two years ago would be a bit surprised), but right now I'm just wondering what it is about this particular corner of the music world that brought you here!


OK, I'll kick off. My forte has always been symphonies. They were my first love but when I came to this site I started expanding my more limited recordings of SQs. I already had multiple sets of Beethoven SQ cycles and had contributed to a blog on these some years back. I had a few Dvorak cycles, plenty of Schubert and other mainstream composer recordings plus randomers I'd picked up over the years, mainly of romantic composer SQ works. I really started keying in on SQs from then and the more I played them the more I started to play less symphonies. I realised I'd neglected chamber music for too long and since then most of my listening has been SQs, quintets & sextets. I noticed this thread, thought I had some insights to offer and started contributing. The rest is history. I'm eternally grateful to ALL the contributors on this thread, past and present, who have broadened my musical horizons (and emptied my pockets of spare cash).


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## Kjetil Heggelund

StevehamNY said:


> This is still broadly on topic, in that I'd very much like to hear how the participants of this thread came to be here, discussing classical string quartets with such insight and affection. I have my own unusual path here (for now, suffice to say that a 20-year-old me would be shocked to hear of this interest in quartets; hell, the me of just two years ago would be a bit surprised), but right now I'm just wondering what it is about this particular corner of the music world that brought you here!


Some time ago I suddenly discovered this thread and wanted to try to contribute a little. I have often said I'm a chamber music guy my favorite instrument is strings. Surprisingly I have only seen 2 string quartet recitals, Kronos in the 90s and Vertavo about 5 years ago. I don't think I'm a very attentive listener, but like to have music on a lot. 
This round of Tchaikovsky, I only heard the Brodsky quartet, but several times. Since I've been surfing the net while listening, I can say they play great and didn't make me turn it off. Maybe I'm strange to think that Tchaikovsky is one of the "noisy" composers, even when he made such sweet melodies...
I have dreamt of playing with a string quartet and have collected several nice scores for guitar/string4 and have a fantastic amplifier system for the grand occasion. I know some string players, but I can't guarantee any nice income for anyone. It's a job...


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## annaw

StevehamNY said:


> This is still broadly on topic, in that I'd very much like to hear how the participants of this thread came to be here, discussing classical string quartets with such insight and affection. I have my own unusual path here (for now, suffice to say that a 20-year-old me would be shocked to hear of this interest in quartets; hell, the me of just two years ago would be a bit surprised), but right now I'm just wondering what it is about this particular corner of the music world that brought you here!


I'm still relatively young and had a truly hard time when I was trying to force myself to like chamber music, which wasn't too long ago. It just felt somewhat boring compared to huge Romantic symphonies and operas I've been pretty obsessed with ever since I developed a more serious interest in classical music. Fundamentally, my musical preferences haven't really changed - I still tend to like Allegros more than Adagios and prefer forcefulness to calm lyricism. I really wanted to like chamber music though, and by the time this thread caught my attention, I had found some chamber pieces which I enjoyed. People seemed to have a great time in this thread, so I decided to join. It's been one of the most enjoyable threads I've actively participated in, and it has made me really fall in love with chamber music.

At the moment, I think I've been listening to more chamber music than orchestral, and I like both quite equally. They often tell very different things about the same composer.


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## StevehamNY

I was a pretty straight-ahead rock fan as a teenager in the 70s (live concerts included ELO, Cheap Trick, Heart, Tom Petty, The Cars). College was the early MTV days: U2 (before they hit it big), The Jam, Talking Heads. By the late 80s, I had moved to NY and was deep into the alternative scene, punctuated by one memorable mind-bending night at the old CBGB.

I fell hard for jazz in my 30s and 40s, even indulged myself with an Albert Ayler subplot in one of my books and got a great note from Ron Carter (bass player in Miles' best quintet, along with everyone else along the way) because my protagonist made such vicious fun of Kenny G. I've been friends with Ron ever since and got to see him play at the Blue Note. Also saw Cecil Taylor, the avant-garde pianist, play a couple of times while he was still with us, and he's the unlikely bridge that brought me into classical piano music.

Because Taylor was compared just as often to Bartok and Messiaen as he was to Monk or Ellington, I followed that trail into the great solo piano music of those two composers plus of course Bach (transcribed, I know), Beethoven, Alkan, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Feldman, and an odd obsession with the musical mad scientist Kaikhosru Sorabji. 

I'm still a pianophile and I know there's surely a solo piano thread or two on this site, but I haven't felt the need to visit there yet. What really brought me *here* was a sudden and inexplicable disappearance of my fear of violin music. It was during the pandemic last year, on a day when I was looking for something new and I happened to give Shostakovich's quartets a try. What might have sounded like nails on a chalkboard before that day was suddenly the exact thing my ears and soul needed. 

I've been all-in for the past twelve months, throughout this long night of upheaval and sickness, spending too much time and money listening to every quartet I could find. It has been a refuge for me, and I'll never stop appreciating everyone here for your knowledge of and dedication to this music. 

So thank you.

(And someday, maybe I'll even get over my fear of symphonies!)


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## SearsPoncho

By the way, love the codas in the outer movements of the Tchaikovsky, particularly the 1st movement. This will sound crazy, but there are some moments in the 1st two movements which sound like Brahms, one of my top 3 composers, and that might be a reason why I like this piece. In the "you wanna go nuts, let's get nuts!" category: I don't think the very enjoyable Scherzo is that far removed from Beethoven. And how could anyone dislike that catchy Finale? I've been enjoying the Emersons very much, and although I haven't compared them to another recording, I wouldn't be surprised if Merl gives them a thumbs up in his end of the week summary. 

As for musical backgrounds...you don't want to know (again, cue the evil villain music). Let's just say that Merl and I have much in common. I was a teenager and college student in the '80's and, like Merl, sex, drugs and rock and roll were not only part of my life, but contributed to my eventual interest in classical music. Don't ask, don't tell! When the classical bug hit me, around 1988, it hit hard. As I might have said elsewhere, like Merl, the first 15-17 years of my classical journey were spent listening almost exclusively to symphonies, concertos, and other orchestral music, as well as a bit of opera and piano music. I did manage to buy a few chamber music recordings in those first years: Beethoven's Op. 132 quartet, Schubert's "Death and the Maiden" quartet and "Trout" quintet, Messiaen's Quartet for the End Of Time, and the live Julliard set of late Beethoven quartets. Not bad for a bunch of "blind" purchases. About 15 years ago I heard the Domus Ensemble's cd of Faure's Piano Quintets and I realized that there remained a whole world of classical music I had never given much of a chance. I started buying it all and attending chamber music concerts, which usually consisted of string quartets. Fast forward to last year, where I suddenly found myself unable to attend concerts, lectures, etc., including an excellent chamber music festival in my neck of the woods. My family likes/tolerates classical music, but they're nowhere near as crazy about it as I am, and I look forward to these live events because I do get a chance to discuss music with others. In light of these withdrawal symptoms, I decided to do something I've never done - join an internet forum. I do have a lot of issues with this forum, but it appears that this is THE classical music forum on the web, and I just found that this thread was the most enlightening one, filled with intelligent, passionate music-lovers, and since I was listening to so much chamber music and string quartets, I started commenting when someone, probably ACB*, invited me to join the club. After donning the requisite dress and playing the opening movement to Dvorak's "American" Quartet on the kazoo, I was invited to join this thread as a Member, although, of course, I will not discuss the initiation ceremony because of the secrecy oath we all took...and HERE I AM (Rock You Like A Hurricane).

*ACB must be horrified at what his supposedly mature elders are confessing. Trust me, ACB, we're holding back the really crazy stuff.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I suppose my story isn't nearly as interesting as most of yours. I've been listening to classical for four years and joined this forum last year. When Vicente, the originator of this thread (and who I hope will someday return and be amazed at the wonderful thing that he started!) mysteriously disappeared early on, I offered to step in and take control because I liked the idea of focusing on a specific genre and going in-depth each week, and I wanted to see it continue. Little did I know that it would now be on the verge of becoming the longest non-Current-Listening thread on TC (yes, I checked, and its only competitor threads don't have _nearly_ as much constructive discussion as we have here!) and that I would be so bowled over by the breadth, depth, and variety of music that I had previously been ignoring. I love reading all your diverse perspectives each week and think that we have a truly special virtual, globe-spanning community of music lovers going on here. Although I do miss some of the earlier contributors to this thread (like flamencosketches, Knorf, and Simplicissimus OTMH) who have left, I totally understand that the Internet is not peoples' top priority and I'm finding myself less and less inclined to spend time on the web nowadays, especially with so much, well, you know..._Internet_ stuff to deal with. But rest assured, even if I limit my participation on the rest of the forum, I'll still be here listening along and learning from everyone who is so much more experienced and knowledgeable than I. I think, at the very least, that anyone who accuses CM of having little interest or variety should examine the list of quartets and be bowled over by the riches that we've scoured! There's too much great music for a lifetime, but exercises like this are a great way to ensure consistently rich and focused artistic spelunking.


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## Bwv 1080

I studied classical guitar and composition at college in the 90s then got a real job and a family, fortunate to notice this thread when it was launched - right at the time the pandemic hit if I remember correctly. Been great to break out of some listening habits and hear new pieces


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## Kreisler jr

I started listening to classical as a teenager in the late 1980s (and I had not before and have never since been really into any popular music, before I discovered classical I was rather lukewarm towards any other music I had encountered). While I started mostly with the obvious orchestral warhorses and then gravitated to Mozart, Beethoven and 19th century, liked some string quartets quite early on. I used most of the money for my 18th birthday for a complete recording of the Beethoven quartets (Melos DG). Of course it took me a while to gradually discover other great chamber music and quartets but it has been a favorite genre of mine for more than 20 years. I have also been discussing classical music on the internet since the usenet times of the mid-1990s. 
I discovered this forum here a few weeks ago (I knew that it existed but occasional browsing last year or so had not convinced me, too many games and banter...) and this thread was one of the reasons to join, so thanks to all contributors for their interesting comments!


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## Carmina Banana

I am really enjoying about your listening journeys! Here is mine:
Surprisingly, I owe everything to public school music education. They introduced me to the Ode to Joy theme and I immediately tracked down a complete recording of the symphony. It was the Rotterdam Philharmonic with Jean Fournet. I just looked up the original record on Ebay and it brought back memories. Maybe some of you will understand this (I’m not sure I do): seeing that beloved record just made me sob uncontrollably. I’m not saying a tear came to my eye. I mean ugly crying. Luckily, the rest of my family just left for grocery shopping and I am here alone.
Anyway, listening to music was very powerful for me as a child. I don’t remember a lot of string quartet listening, but I had the Haydn opus 76 quartets with the Budapest and loved that. At a certain point, I went through an opera phase and had a framed photo of Maria Callas in my room. All of my friends would say, “Why do you have a picture of your mom in your room?” 
I became a musician and have more or less made a good living at it for the last thirty years. Ironically, working with music constantly has made me less likely to listen to classical music for pleasure, but during Covid I had some down time and got back to listening recreationally. I have developed some tinnitus and loud orchestra music and piercing sopranos aggravate it, but chamber music was a perfect fit. I had the thought that it would be fun to share my listening adventures with others and looked up “classical music discussion group” online. This site seemed promising but some of the threads were strangely argumentative. Then I saw this thread and knew I had found a home.


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## Merl

There's a lot of musicians on this thread. If you can class being able to play 'Tie your Mother Down' (sans solos - I don't do solos) and 'Rock you like a Hurricane' on my electric then I creep into the 'musicians' bracket too but, tbh, I'm pretty crap.


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## Malx

I think the moment of epiphany with regard to the Tchaikovsky quartet has struck me at last:

I have spent part of yesterday and part of this afternoon with two recordings which have finally allowed me to come to terms with the first two movements - and I can now appreciate how they better combine with movements 3 & 4.

Firstly the Novus Quartet who are quite 'in your face' in comparison to some of the others I have heard, unfortunately the only recording I have in the collection - the Talich quartet had convinced me movements 1 & 2 were almost moribund, the Novus give the 1st & 2nd more in the way of life.
Secondly and most convincingly the Escher Quartet seem to balance all four movements more successfully they aren't overly swift in the early sections but never seem to linger, a bit more attack than others without overstating it - in the 2nd movement, which for me is now the deal breaker if this is wrong then I lose interest, they manage to minimise the schmaltz whilst retaining a little bite without resorting to overkill.
It may well be I've arrived at a place that is not where students of the finer points of composition and musical theory feel is the right place - but for me it makes the quartet sound 'right' and balanced in a manner that suits my sensibilities.
I have added this recording to my wishlist.


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## Malx

My story is pretty tame I guess. I have always been a musiclover - I can recall listening to 78's of Caruso and others on a wind up gramophone in my Granma's house in County Durham from the age of 4 or 5 she also played piano and organ in the local church. The first recording I was given was an EP of the Beatles 'Twist and Shout' for my sixth birthday. In my teenage years I basically liked music if the mojority of my peers didn't - I was awkward even then . Frank Zappa, Velvet Underground, Traffic, Grateful Dead etc etc I constantly went to gigs as for me at that time live music was what it was all about, beer, smokey & sweaty atomspheres. Bands I saw live include - Queen, Zappa, Yes, Genesis, Blue Oyster Cult, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Van Morrison, The Who and two of the best live bands ever - Dr Feelgood & The Sensational Alex Harvey band. 
I never had the benefit of going to University, family couldn't afford to send me they needed a wage coming in, but my high school English teacher ran a music club which took us in fifth year to see E.L.P. part of the show was Pictures at an Exhibition - interest in CM now piqued. When popular music disappeared up its own backside in the early eighties I lost interest and found myself looking for other sources of musical satifaction - I headed back to E.L.P. and then Mussorgsky then, then, then I have found my own way around the huge classical repertoire from a starting point of not knowing the difference between a sonata and concerto but the journey has been brilliant and hugely enjoyable. After thirty years of listening to CM I have now settled on what I care for and what I don't care so much for.
To quote the Grateful Dead - 'What a long strange trip its been'.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> My story is pretty tame I guess. I have always been a musiclover - I can recall listening to 78's of Caruso and others on a wind up gramophone in my Granma's house in County Durham from the age of 4 or 5 she also played piano and organ in the local church. The first recording I was given was an EP of the Beatles 'Twist and Shout' for my sixth birthday. In my teenage years I basically liked music if the mojority of my peers didn't - I was awkward even then . Frank Zappa, Velvet Underground, Traffic, Grateful Dead etc etc I constantly went to gigs as for me at that time live music was what it was all about, beer, smokey & sweaty atomspheres. Bands I saw live include - Queen, Zappa, Yes, Genesis, Blue Oyster Cult, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Van Morrison, The Who and two of the best live bands ever - Dr Feelgood & The Sensational Alex Harvey band.
> I never had the benefit of going to University, family couldn't afford to send me they needed a wage coming in, but my high school English teacher ran a music club which took us in fifth year to see E.L.P. part of the show was Pictures at an Exhibition - interest in CM now piqued. When poular music disappeared up its own backside in the early eighties I lost interest and found myself looking for other sources of musical satifaction - I headed back to E.L.P. and then Mussorgsky then, then, then I have found my own way around the huge classical repertoire from a starting point of not knowing the difference between a sonata and concerto but the journey has been brilliant and hugely enjoyable. Aftre thrity years of listening to CM I have now settled on what I care for and what I don't care so much for.
> To quote the Grateful Dead - 'What a long strange trip its been'.


Dr Feelgood were one of the best live acts I ever saw - I saw them in 1974 in Southend or Canvey, can't remember which, and in 1975 at the Hammersmith Odeon. I always wanted to see SAHB, but it never happened for me ....


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Dr Feelgood were one of the best live acts I ever saw - I saw them in 1974 in Southend or Canvey, can't remember which, and in 1975 at the Hammersmith Odeon. I always wanted to see SAHB, but it never happened for me ....


Lol, similar here. I saw Wilco-less Feelgood in the early 80s (with Nine Below Zero and the Blues Band - nice triple bill) and they were still an excellent live band. Damn you for seeing the original Skynyrd (I'm assuming it was the original band not all the shoddy posthumous remakes) and SAHB, Malx. I'd have loved to have seen both but I was just too young. I could only go to see my first 'big' gig, Sabbath, in 1978, at the tender age of 13, on the condition I went with my older brother and stayed with him all night (lol). Interestingly a lot of us came here from a classic rock background. I've always been able to listen to rock and classical side by side though. I was just as happy, in the 80s, going to see a program of Holst music from Jimmy Loughran or nodding my head to Uriah Heep at the Free Trade Hall. But for having a former schoolmate who worked at the FTH (occasionally in the ticket office and sometimes in the foyer) I wouldn't have been able to afford to go to orchestral gigs often. I agree with Malx that ELP opened the door for many rock listeners into the CM world. My dad's shitey James Last LPs from the 70s opened the world of classical music to me (its sad but true). I think that seeing my first SQ performance back in the mid-2000s at the Royal Northern College of Music, in Manchester, really kickstarted my growing interest in chamber music.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Lol, similar here. I saw Wilco-less Feelgood in the early 80s (with Nine Below Zero and the Blues Band - nice triple bill) and they were still an excellent live band. Damn you for seeing the original Skynyrd (I'm assuming it was the original band not all the shoddy posthumous remakes) and SAHB, Malx. I'd have loved to have seen both but I was just too young. I could only go to see my first 'big' gig, Sabbath, in 1978, at the tender age of 13, on the condition I went with my older brother and stayed with him all night (lol). Interestingly a lot of us came here from a classic rock background. I've always been able to listen to rock and classical side by side though. I was just as happy, in the 80s, going to see a program of Holst music from Jimmy Loughran or nodding my head to Uriah Heep at the Free Trade Hall. But for having a former schoolmate who worked at the FTH (occasionally in the ticket office and sometimes in the foyer) I wouldn't have been able to afford to go to orchestral gigs often. I agree with Malx that ELP opened the door for many rock listeners into the CM world. My dad's shitey James Last LPs from the 70s opened the world of classical music to me (its sad but true). I think that seeing my first SQ performance back in the mid-2000s at the Royal Northern College of Music, in Manchester, really kickstarted my growing interest in chamber music.


I've got about 5 years on you so I caught Led Zep twice, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Bad Company (missed Free) and too many others to mention. 9 Below Zero were such entertainment! Never got to see ELP, King Crimson or Genesis.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I've got about 5 years on you so I caught Led Zep twice, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Bad Company (missed Free) and too many others to mention. 9 Below Zero were such entertainment! Never got to see ELP, King Crimson or Genesis.


Ha, Henry, at least I got to see Crimson in 82 with Belew (Discipline / Indiscipline?) in Germany. Brilliantly surprising. Thought they be dull
Matte Kudasai almost made me cry it was so beautiful. I saw, pretend Purple mkxxxv (?) at Milton Keynes with Morse and they were pants so I left early (never did like them much tbh). Would have loved to see Zep but I was never into Genesis much and coukdnt stand Yes. Totally agree about 9 Below Zero. Great live. saw em 2 or 3 times.


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## Merl

Anyhoo, enough of the twaddle. Another week gone and in between writing reports for various classes I managed to squeeze in as many listens as I could to almost all the recordings I wanted to hear (but I never did find the Ying or Smetana recordings). Before I start, just a quick word on repeats. I really don't give a hoot whether ensembles take repeats in this quartet (some people take exception in the last movement as they feel it then becomes unbalanced but it doesn't bother me one way or the other). With that elephant in the room addressed, here's what I liked.

Easily recommendable
Emerson
St Petersburg 
Brodsky
St.Lawrence
Meccore
Britten
Danel
Copenhagen
Moscow
International SQ of New York (don't exist) 
Borodin 60s (Chandos) 
Alberni
Klenke

*Highly recommended*

*New Haydn* - the stuttering pauses at the beginning of the 3rd movement slightly spoil an excellent reading but elsewhere this is an excellent recording and the final movement is glorious. 
*Puertas* - good choices and a fine recording make this an obvious choice. 
*Orava* - a real creeper that improves with subsequent listens. The Aussies really get this one. 
*Heath* - earthy and very natural recording. The Heaths are vibrant and more rustic than others but let the music unfold so organically. They change pace effortlessly and make this is a terrific effort in a nice acoustic. 
*Rolston* - check out those raspy violins! Some will not like the sound of this and the players' habit of sniffing loudly before each movement can be irritating but you can't help but love the power of this very close-up recording. This is definitely a love/hate recording.

*Champions-elect*

*Gabrieli* - a classic disc that has earned its place at the top over the years due to its wonderful spontaneous feel. Possibly the Gabrielis' finest hour and still a wonderful recording (along with a fine accompanying Borodin 2nd quartet).
*Novus* - this goes from a beautiful and broad andante to a mercurial, in-your-face and aggressive finale. Excellent dynamics throughout. Some may find the occasional noises of the players a little loud but I zoned them out after a while. Stellar sound quality (which probably accounted for the clarity of the ensemble's extraneous sounds). 
*Borodin (1979 / 1993) *- slightly different approaches but with the same result. Both exceptional and which one you refer is down to you. The '93 Teldec account probably has the edge for a better 2nd half and less harsh sound but you can't go wrong with either, tbh. 
*Escher* - top-notch sound from BIS and a neatly unfolding, balanced performance. Others may have more bite and depth but I loved this one straight away and it never got dull. 
*
Top spots*









*Utrecht* - a performance that gets better and better. The 3rd movement is just so exciting, dynamic and perfectly judged and the 4th movement rocks. Great MDG sound and the Utrechts are way more interesting than labelmates the Meccores, on their overrated but decent recording. This is a fine recording from an excellent Tchaikovsky set. Reminds me of some of the best Takacs recordings on Hyperion (and you know I love some of those). I'd have liked a little more pace on the opening 2 movements but that's a very minor niggle.









*Vermeer* - I just adored this one. The Vermeer don't hang around in this early 2000s recording, especially in the andante, with its nicely fronted first violin. Elsewhere they judge everything immaculately, a bit more bass in the mix and this would be at the very top of the pile on its own. Shame they didn't get the Novus or Utrecht' s sound. Glorious otherwise.


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## annaw

Really nice summary, Merl ! I haven't listened to the Vermeer (I should fix that), but I still absolutely adore the Utrecht's recording.


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## StevehamNY

Thank you for another great roundup, Merl, and ironic that you'd end on the Vermeer, because that's where I was going to start on the covers that get it right. A Tchaikovsky album really should be a layup, because all you need is an evocative/mysterious image of Mother Russia and you're most of the way there!
















(Works even with the bombed-out bus in the foreground...)








(This one isn't 100% Russian, so they had to go in a different direction, but it still stands out!)


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## StevehamNY

And then there are these:








(Taken from the viewpoint of the flock of seagulls, just before they caused many thousands of dollars in damage to instruments and suit jackets.)








(If Julliard had a senior prom, it would look exactly like this.)








(I get the post-modern/ironic approach to classical covers, I swear, but does this really make you want to listen to what's inside?)


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## SearsPoncho

As usual, great summary by Merl and entertaining commentary on the album covers by Steve. I'm not sure what the Talich cover is supposed to represent. Perhaps the Borodin cover is Chernobyl.


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## Merl

Lol, great commentary on the covers, Steve. I must admit that the Vermeer is how a Tchaikovsky cover should be. The Amadeus cover is shocking (and the old one wasn't much better). The funniest thing about the Rolston is its such a soppy cover yet the playing on the cd is far from soppy.. I quite like the Borodins bombed out bus though. A lot of those Talich covers are like that, btw - not very appealing.


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## Carmina Banana

Merl,
I noticed you left the Amadeus off the list. Did they not make the cut?
Also, totally agree about the Rolston. It is funny with this piece that groups can't quite figure out if this is a genteel piece or a foot stomper. The Rolston's scherzo is definitely the latter. I like their approach to that movement in particular. Some groups just let it lie there and "speak for itself." 
The Vermeer is beautiful. I just have one objection: I think the first movement is too fast! I will probably listen to it again. I do like moving this first theme along (I think the early Borodin recording does this in a very interesting way), but it seems a little rushed. I might come around, but that was my first impression.


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## Allegro Con Brio

OK, OK...I said earlier that I don't like syrupy, overmilked Tchaikovsky because the music is enough in itself. But I can't resist this one because it is so exquisitely musical. I'm a historical recording enthusiast, so I'm accustomed to the sound, but if you can hear past the constricted mono the performance is truly special. Oistrakh's sweet, singing violin soars angelically - his tone stands out from the other three - and while tempi are slower than the modern norm you feel as if these players are finding all the nuances in every phrase, exploring the music as they go along. The string sound is silken, not wiry as some modern quartets can sound to me. Highly recommended!


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## Burbage

As it's Friday again....

Gambling is a controversial subject. Some people think it's a very bad thing indeed, but others, notably a good number of influential billionaires in comfortable tax-havens that politicians like the sound of, reckon it's nothing less than a wonderful source of cashflow and profit, the sole example of a perfectly-efficient, perfectly-predictable market that blithely floats, in its own abstract space, above any concern for quotidian commodities, the mundane externalities of war, famine or plague or much in the way of labour.

Happily, gambling doesn't just inspire the gloriously wealthy. It has also inspired those of more precarious means, many of whom it hasn't utterly destroyed, and has thus gifted posterity at least two undeniable Russian masterpieces, namely Dostoevsky's "The Gambler" [1], and Prokofiev's opera of the same name.

And so to this week's selection, Tchaikovky's First (completed) Quartet, for which, like those above, the casino can take the credit. It's a tale that combines potlessness and prudence, friendship and frustration and the tears of an anarchist aristocrat. Happily, it's not a very complicated story.

At the start of 1871, Tchaikovsky was "short of funds" [2]. For one reason or another, he sought advice from his friend Nikolai Rubinstein who had, only the previous summer, lost all his money at roulette and so, I guess, he thought would know all about financial holes. And Nikolai, possibly naturally, suggested Tchaikovsky should hold something in the nature of a fundraising concert.

This was an easy suggestion for a performer, especially a pianist, to make. Tchaikovsky, however, was more in the way of a composer, and that posed difficulties. He could, of course, write music. There was no shortage of that. The trouble was that all his good stuff required an orchestra, and orchestras cost money that Tchaikovsky didn't have. There again, he'd need to write something new and intriguing to draw the crowds. The solution that presented itself was a solution in the shape of a new string quartet that might be new and intriguing and would certainly be cheap.

And that's how it turned out. Tolstoy liked the quartet very much (though not enough to write a book about it), weeping over, I presume, the tasteful handling of "Vanya Sat on the Sofa", a song popular among carpenters. The piece was widely admired, but not universally and Anton Rubinstein, brother of the profligate Nikolai, told Tchaikovsky's chosen publisher not to bother with it. Dissing Tchaikovsky's work, however, seems to have been a habit of Anton's, dating back to the days when he'd tutored Tchaikovsky in the musical arts, and the result, perhaps, of what we now politely call 'artistic differences'. Rubinstein, after all, was something of a composer himself and might, for all we know, have had pockets he thought more needful of lining.

So, what has this heartwarming tale to offer, apart from the lesson that, if it wasn't for the fearful depths of poverty, filthy lucre would have no well from which to draw up inspiration?

To my mind, it's left us with a very fine second attempt at a first quartet (if we ignore the student pieces), even though Tchaikovsky thought his first attempt at a second was more successful. It's very Russian, very Tchaikovsky, but still a workable quartet. The first movement is grand, the second haunting, the scherzo's not very long and the finale romps along.

I have been listening to the New Haydn's Naxos and the Escher's BIS recordings and the former pleases me more on ethical grounds. As Merl, and others, have pointed out, the Eschers seem to take it briskly, and it "never gets boring", but skipping a three-minute repeat in the finale can go a long way to giving that impression without having to resort to youthful vigour. Fortunately, I'm not very judgemental, so I've enjoyed listening to both, regardless of short measure.

_[1] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2197

[2] From "The Life & Letters of Peter Ilich Tchaikovsky" by Modest Chaikovskii [sic], Trans Rosa Newmarch (1906), Chapter VIII*
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/45259_


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## Kreisler jr

I have not looked at a score but does not the first movement change between two tempi, the moderato of the "intro" (which returns frequently, I think) and the faster tempo of the "main part"?

(As the Amadeus quartet disc combines such different pieces, they had to make it about the musicians, I guess).

I have only two recordings, the Klenke and the 1979 Borodin and I liked both well enough. On my BMG/Melodiya the sound of the latter is fine. The Klenke are a bit faster in the slow movement and overall a bit leaner but the Borodin are not slow or soppy. 
Tchaikovsky is not one of my favorite composers and there were times when I could hardly stand a lot of his music; this has changed again a bit, although smallish doses suffice. By now, I tend to prefer his less "pretentious" works to which the current quartet certainly belongs. Like the string serenade or the ballet scores this is very well crafted music without becoming too trivial and always fun. The quartet is an uncommonly sunny piece for this melancholy composer and I might even prefer it to the brooding e flat minor (usually considered the best one, and it probably is the best overall) and the trio (that I find overlong, this seems to be the most popular chamber piece of PIT) because of its natural flow and total lack of pretention or "fake depth".


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## FastkeinBrahms

SearsPoncho said:


> As usual, great summary by Merl and entertaining commentary on the album covers by Steve. I'm not sure what the Talich cover is supposed to represent. Perhaps the Borodin cover is Chernobyl.


Not Florence, at least not how I remember it.


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## Burbage

Kreisler jr said:


> I have not looked at a score but does not the first movement change between two tempi, the moderato of the "intro" (which returns frequently, I think) and the faster tempo of the "main part"?


So now I've had to look at a score.

Officially, the first movement starts moderato, and carries on like that for 162 bars, which would suggest the answer is no. At least until the last page and a half, where it switches to Allegro ma non troppo, and then goes accelerando for the last twelve bars.

Within those 162 bars (including both intro and main part), however, there are a good few poco piu mossos and con fuocos, a largamento or two and a repeated a tempo (at the end of the repeated section), so it's shifting around a fair bit, depending on artistic judgement, but possibly not as much as it seems to be.

Why it seems to be is, I guess, because it's written in 9/8, and so has a twitchy, tripletty character that's highlighted in the semiquavery bits but which vanishes in the chorale-like sections; so I suspect the impression we're given is as much a result of changing note values as of changing tempi.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Apologies for my comparative lack of involvement of late. Ever since the weather has changed I have been working outside a lot getting the yard ready for the spring garden as well as digging trenches for drainage. North Carolina clay does not shed water very well. At any rate, I have the Dvorak, Tchaikovsky and Borodin album by the Emerson Quartet and really enjoy it. I was glad for this pick as I have not listened to the Tchaikovsky SQ#1 often. What a lovely work. The cello line close to the beginning of the first movement is beautiful. The Andante with the interplay between the violin and the plucked strings is beautiful if just a little schmaltzy as played by the Emersons, but hey they're tight. The Finale is very exciting. I don't know why I don't listen to this more.



StevehamNY said:


> This is still broadly on topic, in that I'd very much like to hear how the participants of this thread came to be here, discussing classical string quartets with such insight and affection. I have my own unusual path here (for now, suffice to say that a 20-year-old me would be shocked to hear of this interest in quartets; hell, the me of just two years ago would be a bit surprised), but right now I'm just wondering what it is about this particular corner of the music world that brought you here!


When I was 19 I went to community college as a music major for a year before dropping out and getting into construction. I started listening to classical music at that time. I've always listened to classical in the 30+ years that had passed but when the world ended last year I got back into CM with an intensity I had not had since my college days. Any search of "best [type of classical music]" on the interwebs will eventually land one here on TC and after I found myself reading a few posts here I joined up. From there I started working through the various 'TOP' lists here and one of the more prominent ones is the SQ list. Anyway, after hearing a few of the top SQs I ended up joining in this thread as I love the medium. To me one of the strengths of the genre is the generation of art within the restrictions of the four parts allowed. To me it's fantastic. And the folks here are great, knowledgeable and don't run me off when I say ignorant things. So there!


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> Merl,
> I noticed you left the Amadeus off the list. Did they not make the cut?


I really didn't think the Amadeus' got this one (they were very high in my last SQ review) . They play it very straight and with little colour, to my ears. Some might like that approach but I like character in SQ performances, especially Tchaikovsky.


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> I really didn't think the Amadeus' got this one (they were very high in my last SQ review) . They play it very straight and with little colour, to my ears. Some might like that approach but I like character in SQ performances, especially Tchaikovsky.


Fair enough. I remember liking it, but I'm going to go back for another listen. Sometimes, it is like a completely different experience when I go back to a recording.


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## Carmina Banana

I had a few quick thoughts which turned into some long thoughts. In particular, I am interested in discussing the issue of composers who bring in folk elements and/or promote nationalism compared to those who strive for “absolute music.” I would like to know what other think.
The story of the composer who is torn between writing music that celebrates their native country and following in the footsteps of great European masters is a familiar one.
The irony is that audiences who attend the symphonies or chamber music recitals are usually of a class that aspires to be the most sophisticated, yet there is often a mandate to tap into the common vernacular (usually in the form of native folk music). I guess this is not so surprising when you consider the roles musicians have played in high society—everything from hero to servant. The dichotomy is always evident when I attend those events celebrating an arts organization. They are usually held at a patron’s lavish home and the artists scurry out and perform, then disappear into the kitchen where they can eat leftovers while the patrons enjoy the rest of their evening among their own kind. 
I’m no expert but Russia sounds like a bit of a battleground during Tchaikovsky’s early years as a composer. The Russian Musical Society, a product of the worldly pianist Anton Rubinstein and his patroness, Elena Pavlovna, was stepping in to bring culture to Russia. This meant European culture. But lurking nearby was the Five (it sounds sinister, somehow).
Again, I see the parallels with the U.S. All of the musical societies in the late 19th century and early 20th were attempting to bring European greatness to a country that didn’t have much of its own. A great example of that was the composer Edward Macdowell who proved that a composer from this country could be as European as the best of them. He was such a hero in this country that music clubs sprang up in his name.
In truth, the Madowell Music Clubs have been a force for good in this country and promoted many composers who developed a uniquely American voice. I assume the Russian Musical Society probably was instrumental in encouraging Russian composers and musicians. 
All of this to say, the tension between the academic route and “music of the common people” seems to be a theme for certain composers and I always think of it being troublesome for Tchaikovsky. 
This quartet, with the exception of the folk tune element, is pretty classical in its form and structure. It is one of pieces that almost seem to say, “see, I know how it should be done.” In style, however, there are a couple of elements that I think are more distinctly Tchaikovskyesque. 
The scherzo has an abundance of those hemiolas that he loved. That had become pretty much expected, however, due to Beethoven’s use of the scherzo as a playground for rhythmic ambiguity. In the trio, however, Tchaikovsky has an extended phrase of notes with the “wrong” note value, setting up a pretty serious disruption of reality. And then there is the opening theme of the first movement. As a listener I sensed there was something off about that theme but I couldn’t put my finger on it. Looking at the score, I see the trick he is playing: it is in 9/8 but instead grouped normally: 3,3,3, he consistently groups it 2,3,2,2. 
This explains why some groups struggle with this opening. If it is played accurately and slowly, it sounds like a strange rubato. The alternative is to gloss over it, which kind of works, but can also sound too pedestrian.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina Banana said:


> I had a few quick thoughts which turned into some long thoughts. In particular, I am interested in discussing the issue of composers who bring in folk elements and/or promote nationalism compared to those who strive for "absolute music." I would like to know what other think.
> The story of the composer who is torn between writing music that celebrates their native country and following in the footsteps of great European masters is a familiar one.
> The irony is that audiences who attend the symphonies or chamber music recitals are usually of a class that aspires to be the most sophisticated, yet there is often a mandate to tap into the common vernacular (usually in the form of native folk music). I guess this is not so surprising when you consider the roles musicians have played in high society-everything from hero to servant. The dichotomy is always evident when I attend those events celebrating an arts organization. They are usually held at a patron's lavish home and the artists scurry out and perform, then disappear into the kitchen where they can eat leftovers while the patrons enjoy the rest of their evening among their own kind.
> I'm no expert but Russia sounds like a bit of a battleground during Tchaikovsky's early years as a composer. The Russian Musical Society, a product of the worldly pianist Anton Rubinstein and his patroness, Elena Pavlovna, was stepping in to bring culture to Russia. This meant European culture. But lurking nearby was the Five (it sounds sinister, somehow).
> Again, I see the parallels with the U.S. All of the musical societies in the late 19th century and early 20th were attempting to bring European greatness to a country that didn't have much of its own. A great example of that was the composer Edward Macdowell who proved that a composer from this country could be as European as the best of them. He was such a hero in this country that music clubs sprang up in his name.
> In truth, the Madowell Music Clubs have been a force for good in this country and promoted many composers who developed a uniquely American voice. I assume the Russian Musical Society probably was instrumental in encouraging Russian composers and musicians.
> All of this to say, the tension between the academic route and "music of the common people" seems to be a theme for certain composers and I always think of it being troublesome for Tchaikovsky.
> This quartet, with the exception of the folk tune element, is pretty classical in its form and structure. It is one of pieces that almost seem to say, "see, I know how it should be done." In style, however, there are a couple of elements that I think are more distinctly Tchaikovskyesque.
> The scherzo has an abundance of those hemiolas that he loved. That had become pretty much expected, however, due to Beethoven's use of the scherzo as a playground for rhythmic ambiguity. In the trio, however, Tchaikovsky has an extended phrase of notes with the "wrong" note value, setting up a pretty serious disruption of reality. And then there is the opening theme of the first movement. As a listener I sensed there was something off about that theme but I couldn't put my finger on it. Looking at the score, I see the trick he is playing: it is in 9/8 but instead grouped normally: 3,3,3, he consistently groups it 2,3,2,2.
> This explains why some groups struggle with this opening. If it is played accurately and slowly, it sounds like a strange rubato. The alternative is to gloss over it, which kind of works, but can also sound too pedestrian.


Wow! Loved reading this post. It deserves two likes: One for the high quality of the analysis, and one for using the word "hemiolas." I've enjoyed reading all the commentary from the great contributors to this thread, but this one really stands out. Still the best thread on this site.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I'm glad the word hemiola is not forgotten completely


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## Carmina Banana

Thanks for the two likes, SearsPoncho. Let me say that I also really appreciate all of the members here. Especially since I almost swore off internet forums forever. I recently posted a question on a facebook group. I guessed it was a pretty basic question, but I thought someone would just answer yes or no and it wouldn't be a big deal. It was humiliating. Everybody piled on mercilessly. Dozens and dozens took turns insulting me. I learned some new terminology that I won't repeat here. Eventually my post was removed because I had violated the rules of asking a question that I could have looked up on google. 
Very happy to be here where we are all accepted and pretty darn nice to each other.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've tried my hand at Facebook groups as well, and have determined that this thread is just about the only place on the Internet that I'm comfortable hanging out at anymore. Even posting, say, a favorite Bach piano recommendation on one of those FB groups often leads to being told that it's a disgrace to listen to Bach on the piano or being informed that Gould is factually the only real interpreter of Bach. We're amazingly genial here, and besides the Schoenberg kerfuffle a couple months back we've kept the thread as a real refuge from stereotypical Internet muck.

Next week's nominator: *FastkeinBrahms*!

And just a polite reminder: *The next week's selection should be posted on Sunday - whenever that may be for the nominator.* This allows for everyone who wants to get their thoughts in to do so. Thanks!


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## Merl

There are quite a few places you can go online to meet CM fans and I've tried them all and they're all rubbish (Google Groups being the worst for opinionated pratts and people stuck firmly in the past) . TC has always been the best forum for discussing the music we love and whilst it's not perfect and there are annoying people on other threads (like on every forum) I think this particular thread has carved out a unique position here. I like the people who post here a lot and respect their views, knowledge and humour. Apologies from me if I sometimes come over as a 'know it all'. I am far from that and never have been one, and there are people on here with a million times my musical knowledge and accumen. I'm a listener, not a real muso, and I constantly strive to find new (to me) recordings that I like and share them so we don't get stuck just thrashing our the same old boring comments and recommended recordings without listening afresh. That's it. Theres no agenda, no initial bias, etc. I just want to find things for myself and others to listen to.


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> Thanks for the two likes, SearsPoncho. Let me say that I also really appreciate all of the members here. Especially since I almost swore off internet forums forever. I recently posted a question on a facebook group. I guessed it was a pretty basic question, but I thought someone would just answer yes or no and it wouldn't be a big deal. It was humiliating. Everybody piled on mercilessly. Dozens and dozens took turns insulting me. I learned some new terminology that I won't repeat here. Eventually my post was removed because I had violated the rules of asking a question that I could have looked up on google.
> Very happy to be here where we are all accepted and pretty darn nice to each other.


Carmina, how dare you say something so ridiculous here, you %$^&* @#$%^& *&^%$#!


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## Helgi

Lots of nice posts to catch up on this week.

Meanwhile, I've been preoccupied with: a) 15-16th century funeral music, and b) children's birthday parties. But I did manage to sneak in a few listens of the Tchaikovsky. I've _liked_ it since I first heard it (not that long ago), but while I felt that there were many things to enjoy in it it never really caught fire for me - until I listened to the Utrecht recording. That one really sold it to me. They play it with so much conviction, and everything sounds just right. It's that fine line of being completely committed without going overboard that seems to be a challenge with string quartets in particular, and maybe other forms of chamber music (cello sonatas come to mind). Great sound, too.

Btw., I was reading this thread while balancing a smartphone, a portable amplifier and a full cup of coffee this morning, and I think I accidentally hit the "report this post" button on one of the lovely posts in this weeks' discussion. Don't know if it went through, but just so you know!


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## Merl

^ reporter!!!!


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## FastkeinBrahms

I am pleased to nominate the E flat major string quartet by Fanny Hensel (born Fanny Mendelssohn) for this week. 

At this stage, I will refrain from saying things about the music itself. When I listen to an unfamiliar piece of music for the first time - and I do hope that this quartet is unknown to at least some of you -, I prefer my listening to be unguided. The second and third time around, if there is one, that is a different story.

Just one or two non-musical facts about the work: It was composed in 1834, when Fanny was 29 years old. It does not have an opus number and was only published in the 1980s. There is an exchange of letters between her and her brother which sheds some light on both composers’ approach to writing music, as well as their self doubts. Unfortunately, this is the only string quartet Fanny wrote.

This quartet has by now been recorded quite frequently. I have not found a bad recording, one or two I find great, one or two seem mediocre to me and the rest is somewhere in the middle. The one I have on CD is the Nash Ensemble on Hyperion, which came out last year, and also contains her opus 11 Piano Trio. I have not found it available for streaming. I you can get hold of it, you will not be disappointed. It is the most emotionally intense reading I have found.

Here are some recordings that you can find easily on Spotify et al.:

Quatuor Ebène
Merel Quartet
Asasello Quartet
Erato Quartet
Lafayette String Quartet
Malin Broman Musica Vitae
Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet


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## Merl

Nice choice, FKB. I have the Nash Ensemble recording and the Ebene recording. I got that one for hers bro's 6th quartet on that particular disc but haven't played it for some time (and mistakenly left it off my Mendelssohn 6 round-up - now amended).

BTW, there's a recording from the Cavaleri Quartet too

PS. Am I allowed to snigger like a 5 year old at the word 'Fanny'? I'll only do it once, promise. 

Edit: I came to this quartet some years ago as it was often paired with my favourite quartet (Mendelssohn's 6th) but tbh I've never really listened that closely to it. Giving my Ebene recording another spin, I'm really enjoying hearing it again. It owes a debt to Beethoven for me but it's a quartet full of colour and passion. I've played 3 recordings of it this morning (it's only short) and I have a definite preference for one of them. The 2nd movement seems the trickiest to get right so I'm going to focus on that quite a bit in my listening.


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## StevehamNY

FKB, I have the Ebene recording, and I've liked this quartet from the first time I heard it. (There's a whole side discussion to be had on why it took 150 years to see publication. Maybe she should have taken a cue from her contemporaries, the Bronte sisters, and made up a fake male pseudonym?)

Anyway, thank you for nominating this! Sounds like I may need to track down that Nash recording, even knowing that Hyperion never streams anything. (But that's what disposable income is for, right?)

(P.S. Funny how, as an American, the "fanny" business does nothing to me!)


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Here are some recordings that you can find easily on Spotify et al.:
> 
> Quatuor Ebène
> Merel Quartet
> Asasello Quartet
> Erato Quartet
> Lafayette String Quartet
> Malin Broman Musica Vitae
> Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet


Here's the other two I found (one of which I've just listened to).

Cavaleri Quartet
Florestan Quartet

Listening to quite a few of these today, there were some that immediately stood out. However, I wasn't impressed by the Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet (bit dull and homogenous), Florestan Quartet (not a great acoustic and not lively enough) and the Asasello Quartet (a bit laboured but well played). I rather liked the Merel's slightly mannered approach. I'll listen to the Lafayette recording again tomorrow as I was interrupted halfway through but initial impressions were positive. I have the Nash and Ebene recordings and I've just burned them to the car USB for a listen tomorrow. I do like that 2nd movement a lot, I've got to admit, but the whole quartet is definitely growing on me. It definitely fits well with recordings of Mendelssohn's 6th quartet for some reason. Apparently grumpy Mendy wasn't impressed by his sis' effort (basically trashed it out of sight). Sexist pig!


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Disclaimer: This following is _not_ insightful analysis of any kind. 

This was a quality choice. It instantly drew me in from the first couple bars. The part writing is really nice and fun to follow along with. The fast movements are plain [email protected] and absolutely rock out. The "Romance" adagio is probably my favorite movement. I think "expressive" is an adjective that becomes hackneyed (or at least I feel that way when I'm trying to write about music) because music is so intangible and defies description. With that being said, that adagio is so wonderfully expressive that I was quite carried away with it. I love this piece!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Carmina Banana said:


> Thanks for the two likes, SearsPoncho. Let me say that I also really appreciate all of the members here. Especially since I almost swore off internet forums forever. I recently posted a question on a facebook group. I guessed it was a pretty basic question, but I thought someone would just answer yes or no and it wouldn't be a big deal. It was humiliating. Everybody piled on mercilessly. Dozens and dozens took turns insulting me. I learned some new terminology that I won't repeat here. Eventually my post was removed because I had violated the rules of asking a question that I could have looked up on google.
> Very happy to be here where we are all accepted and pretty darn nice to each other.


I feel this. Social media is a sewer, as are most internet forums. Pretty much youse guys and a cigar forum I'm on are the only interaction of the sort that I do. There's a couple of tool bags here on TC as well, but they tend to confine their pontification to every thread but this one!


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

Helgi said:


> Btw., I was reading this thread while balancing a smartphone, a portable amplifier and a full cup of coffee this morning, and I think I accidentally hit the "report this post" button on one of the lovely posts in this weeks' discussion. Don't know if it went through, but just so you know!


Snitches get stitches! :devil:


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## starthrower

Hey, youse guys! Do they say that in N. Carolina? I've heard it in Brooklyn. It's a dreary morning here in central NY so I decided to get back in to some quartets. I'm a few behind so I'm getting caught up with the Villa Lobos. Despite the lukewarm responses here this one sounds glorious to my ears. But I admit I've listened to only one other of his and that was the first quartet a few years back which I remember enjoying quite a bit. Anyhow, I find this one to be quite colorful and upbeat and the Latin American Quartet sounds superb. A rich and robust recording I find very attractive. Several years back I thought about purchasing the set but I never did. Thanks to Merl for a bit of encouragement. After two enjoyable listens to the Villa Lobos I'm going to give the Tchaikovsky a listen. This will also be a first as I have never explored any of his chamber music.


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## Merl

After listening to all the available recordings bar the Cavaleri (which I can't seem to get to hear) there's definitely 2 recordings here that stand out as being very classy. Others are recommendable but the two I like most are delightful. This quartet seems to go by in 5 minutes (but that's a sign that I'm enjoying it). 

PS. I agree with Gucci that it's a 'badass' quartet. I think Fanny M would almost have been a rock chick had she been around in this century. :guitar:

Edit: the Cavaleri recording is on Spotify. Many thanks to annaw for the link. It's in the set linked below.


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## Clloydster

I've been traveling last week and this week, but I have spent the time downloading each week's quartet - multiple recordings - and have listened to them on the road.

I enjoyed the Tchaikovsky quartet - but I think I prefer the latter two movements over the former two. I know that the 2nd movement is fairly popular in its own right, but I don't find it moving me like the slow movement of the Beethoven Razumovsky 1 quartet. I was kind of hoping it would - I know that so much of Tchaikovsky's orchestral work, which I love, really has an emotional feel to it. I just didn't get that with this quartet.

I'm listening now to the Quatuor Ebene recording of the Fanny Mendelssohn quartet. Upon first listening, it seems very pleasant, but I don't know that anything is standing out to me. Perhaps it was bad that my first quartet was the Beethoven - I find myself comparing all these others in my mind to it, which probably isn't fair. 

Needless to say, I'll listen to the other recordings as well, and see whether this one grows on me.


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## Kreisler jr

I have the Ebene recording (which seems overall a tremendously good disc). It is an interesting piece. Starting with a slow movement is quite daring, the following scherzo is quite dramatic (not the "fairies of Midsummer night's dream), probably inspired by Beethoven's op.74, the romance as the second main? slow movement maybe the most typically romantic. The finale is again a vigorous piece with a bit of "scherzando"-character. I find all four movements interesting but have to admit that the whole thing seems a bit like a "suite". The lack of standard sonata form main movement feels like a lack to me. Apparently Felix had somewhat similar complaints and Fanny referred to late Beethoven as model for such freedoms. Granted but Beethoven always manages a rather compelling whole in spite of such freedoms. 
It also reduced the experience a bit that I listened to the whole disc. Fanny's is a good quartet but framed with highly dramatic interpretations of the two best quartets (and two of his best instrumental pieces) of her brother makes it appear slighter than it actually is.


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## Kreisler jr

Clloydster said:


> I've been traveling last week and this week, but I have spent the time downloading each week's quartet - multiple recordings - and have listened to them on the road.
> 
> I enjoyed the Tchaikovsky quartet - but I think I prefer the latter two movements over the former two. I know that the 2nd movement is fairly popular in its own right, but I don't find it moving me like the slow movement of the Beethoven Razumovsky 1 quartet. I was kind of hoping it would - I know that so much of Tchaikovsky's orchestral work, which I love, really has an emotional feel to it. I just didn't get that with this quartet.
> 
> I'm listening now to the Quatuor Ebene recording of the Fanny Mendelssohn quartet. Upon first listening, it seems very pleasant, but I don't know that anything is standing out to me. Perhaps it was bad that my first quartet was the Beethoven - I find myself comparing all these others in my mind to it, which probably isn't fair.


you name it. Beethoven, especially op.59/1 is an extremely high standard. I think the Tchaikovsky and Fanny M. are very good and enjoyable quartets but it is no shame at all to be dwarfed by Beethoven's masterpiece.
(The 3rd Tchaikovsky quartet is his most emotional and overall the most ambitious, you might try that one, if you haven't yet. Still no Beethoven but closer to PITs late symphonies, I'd say)


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## BlackAdderLXX

starthrower said:


> Hey, youse guys! Do they say that in N. Carolina? I've heard it in Brooklyn.


There's a lot of Yankees in my part of NC.


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## starthrower

The main theme of the opening movement from the Tchaikovsky quartet sounds very familiar. I must have heard it somewhere. I gave the Borodin's a couple of listens including a 2018 live performance, and the 1979 recording mentioned in Merl's wrap up. Overall I found it to be a beautiful and classic composition which is very easy to like and appreciate from the great Russian composer. Although unlike the account I read about Tolstoy, the second movement failed to elicit tears. But I'm not a Russian steeped in their folk music tradition. Apparently the great Helen Keller was deeply moved by feeling the vibrations sweeping through her fingers while this same movement was performed by the Zoellner Quartet.


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## Helgi

Now this is a nice surprise! Lots to like, and lots of Beethoven (or am I missing other influences?).

I'm listening to the Ebene on Spotify and I think I'll just put this one in a shopping cart already...


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## FastkeinBrahms

Kreisler jr said:


> I have the Ebene recording (which seems overall a tremendously good disc). It is an interesting piece. Starting with a slow movement is quite daring, the following scherzo is quite dramatic (not the "fairies of Midsummer night's dream), probably inspired by Beethoven's op.74, the romance as the second main? slow movement maybe the most typically romantic. The finale is again a vigorous piece with a bit of "scherzando"-character. I find all four movements interesting but have to admit that the whole thing seems a bit like a "suite". The lack of standard sonata form main movement feels like a lack to me. Apparently Felix had somewhat similar complaints and Fanny referred to late Beethoven as model for such freedoms. Granted but Beethoven always manages a rather compelling whole in spite of such freedoms.
> It also reduced the experience a bit that I listened to the whole disc. Fanny's is a good quartet but framed with highly dramatic interpretations of the two best quartets (and two of his best instrumental pieces) of her brother makes it appear slighter than it actually is.


Very good points. Indeed, what you listened to it before and after, if one does, has a tremendous impact on your listening experience. In the Nash recording, with a Piano Trio of Clara Schumann's and her own opus 11, the quartet fares much better.

I consider starting with a slow movement one of the strong points of the piece and I also just love Felix's slow opening movements or longish introductions to opening movements like in some of the earlier quartets or the Reformation Symphony. You rightly say that Felix criticized her for that, but very gently and he makes a very telling point: He wrote that he himself was taught a painful lesson by the musical world scorning him when he had strayed too much from the accepted formal mould. It just shows how strongly he felt he had to fit in with the prevailing taste and conform to expectations. I think he was more motivated by wanting to protect his sister rather than by disdain for her talent or, worse, wanting to keep her down.


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## Bwv 1080

Settled on the Ebene recording as well - Find this a more interesting piece than her brothers pieces that come before and after

It hits the right note of late classical period feel, with strong counterpoint throughout, but the lack of what by that time would have been a paint-by-numbers 4 movement sonata form is a feature not a bug for me. It retains enough freedom to escape from the dead formalism that, for example, ruins Brahms qts for me.

Too bad the score is not on IMSLP - has anyone been able to find a copy elsewhere?


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## Allegro Con Brio

My perceptions so far are basically in line with what others have said - a wonderful Classical Period composition, not outstanding but well crafted in every regard with nothing in the way of longeurs. It sounds like a mixture of Felix’s music (the impish, quicksilver fast movements) and early Beethoven to my ears. Though the opening Adagio is a unique and wonderful formal touch and very beautiful, I think the third movement Romanze is my favorite for its more disturbed nature; it really approaches Romantic spontaneity. Maybe not beyond the “great to hear” category in my estimation but I don’t know if I would have ever listened to Fanny Mendelssohn’s music without this impetus, so thanks for that The playing of the Ebene is delightful all-around, especially their effortless energy and virtuosity where it’s demanded.


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## Merl

I've not much more to add to what's been said but I will say that Fanny Mendelssohn's E flat quartet is a fine work that definitely pulls you in. It's not top of the shop but it is a very interesting and surprisingly vigorous work. Here's the recordings that REALLY impressed me (others were OK but these just stood out)

*Recommended*

*Merel* - a little mannered but still fine
*Lafayette* - slightly dreamier in outlook, glorious 4th movement, especially. 
*Erato* - musical and sensible account, played in a pleasantly resonant acoustic
*Cavaleri* - best of this group for me. Fresher, more vivacious but lacking rhe tiniest bit of finesse

*
Hugely recommended
*








*Ebene* - this is a terrific performance (from a fine disc containing Felix Mendelssohn's wonderful 2nd and 6th quartets, too) . Vibrant playing, plenty of meatiness and a glorious 2nd movement make this a very appealing and exciting recording and the rest of the disc is of a similar high quality.








*Nash* - this lovely Hyperion disc contains some equally delightful moments and is blessed with impressive recorded sound. The Nash Ensemble may not be quite as 'edgy' as the Ebene but they still play hard when needed and their emotion is engaging. They excel in the slower movements, especially. Whether you prefer this or the Ebene is subjective but my advice is to get both as the fillers on the Nash disc are equally attractive. At the moment this has a miniscule edge for me but I've been changing my mind on which I prefer all week.


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## StevehamNY

Thanks for the roundup, Merl! And thank you, FKB, for choosing this quartet. I think I had only heard it once previously; it's amazing how much more you can find when you go back and dedicate yourself to really listening!

And once again, Merl, I think your best recording (Hyperion, with the Angelica Kauffman painting) also has the best album art, even if there's not a great number of competitors this week. Rule of thumb for any cover designer, I think: you can't go too far wrong if you just choose an evocative piece of fine art. It doesn't have to be from the *exact* same time period, and the subject matter doesn't have to land squarely on the nose. But somehow it should find some connection to the music. And instead of being a static landscape or cityscape or seascape, it should have some *motion* to it, some kind of forward momentum, because that's the one thing it needs to share with the music itself. Does that make any sense?

While you think on that, here are a few albums that perhaps should have followed my sage advice:








(It's the same flock of seagulls from last week! But this time, the guy who wrote the insurance policy on the instruments is having a stroke, because one wrong step here...)








(Fanny's quartet is here, I promise! They just couldn't be bothered to add even a little inset portrait of sis.)








Record Label Executive: "So, we've got a quartet named after Fanny Mendelssohn, playing nothing but music by women composers. It's going to be a very special release, but now we need just the right album cover, something that really captures the unique feminine content!"

Cover Designer, after working all week plus overtime: "Okay, boss, I think I finally have it! Metal plates with rivets!"*

*If this was actually a next-level reference to Rosie the Riveter, then I stand down.


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## Merl

Aye, Steve, some of those album covers are dire. You really have to worry about the people who put them together. The 'Melomania' rivets cover is absolutely dreadful. I agree with you... If in doubt go with the old fine art cover. The new cover of choice for the younger quartets either seems to revive around some silly quartet formation / pose with instruments or the 'walking along a la Reservoir Dogs'.


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## Malx

Not a great deal of variety in my listening to F Mendelssohn's quartet this week, I have the Ebene quartet and after sampling a few others on Qobuz I am happy to stick with what I have. The piece itself I have always liked. 
Daring to break with the tradition of the time by starting with an adagio that doesn't progress into a faster section within the first movement shows the strength of her belief in her own ability. I particularly like the second movement and the others don't disappoint. For me this is a very interesting quartet, it may not be at the pinnacle of the genre, but then that could be said about the majority of quartets.
I haven't had the chance to hear the Nash Ensemble recording other than the low quality samples on the Hyperion website, going by those snippets the overall sound seemed a bit dull compared the Ebene's recording but normally the Nash Ensemble are very reliable in this type of repertoire so maybe that is down to the website presentation - I am currently trying to curtail my spending so will have to keep wondering about that one.
One little comment in the booklet that accompanies the Ebenes recording I thought interesting - when discussing the quartet with her brother and responding to his reservations about ' excessive and modulatory liberties' in the Romanze, she pointed out that the main source of her inspiration had been the late works of Beethoven.

ETA - My usual practice of not reading other peoples reactions before posting mine has resulted in my last sentence being a duplicate of a point made in an earlier post by Kreisler Jr - apologies.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I find the funniest album cover to be the Ebene, any suggestions for a caption? How about: We should never have stopped for petrol in this hellhole. They stole our car --and-- our instruments!


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> Thanks for the roundup, Merl! And thank you, FKB, for choosing this quartet. I think I had only heard it once previously; it's amazing how much more you can find when you go back and dedicate yourself to really listening!
> 
> And once again, Merl, I think your best recording (Hyperion, with the Angelica Kauffman painting) also has the best album art, even if there's not a great number of competitors this week. Rule of thumb for any cover designer, I think: you can't go too far wrong if you just choose an evocative piece of fine art. It doesn't have to be from the *exact* same time period, and the subject matter doesn't have to land squarely on the nose. But somehow it should find some connection to the music. And instead of being a static landscape or cityscape or seascape, it should have some *motion* to it, some kind of forward momentum, because that's the one thing it needs to share with the music itself. Does that make any sense?
> 
> While you think on that, here are a few albums that perhaps should have followed my sage advice:
> 
> View attachment 155086
> 
> (It's the same flock of seagulls from last week! But this time, the guy who wrote the insurance policy on the instruments is having a stroke, because one wrong step here...)
> 
> View attachment 155087
> 
> (Fanny's quartet is here, I promise! They just couldn't be bothered to add even a little inset portrait of sis.)
> 
> View attachment 155088
> 
> Record Label Executive: "So, we've got a quartet named after Fanny Mendelssohn, playing nothing but music by women composers. It's going to be a very special release, but now we need just the right album cover, something that really captures the unique feminine content!"
> 
> Cover Designer, after working all week plus overtime: "Okay, boss, I think I finally have it! Metal plates with rivets!"*
> 
> *If this was actually a next-level reference to Rosie the Riveter, then I stand down.


I'm almost certainly stating the bl***y obvious but a lot of the modern covers have probably had the need to stand out on the CD racks or on an internet page as part of the brief which may swing them away from the more classical style of cover.


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## Clloydster

Okay - so I have made some purchases based on that alphabetized list of what you all have covered, and I got a Takacs Quartet recording of Schubert's No. 13 Rosamunde quartet (because I really like his late symphonies) and I listened to the other quartet on there - No. 14 "Death and the Maiden" - and was really blown away. This one hasn't been discussed on here yet, right? Is this considered one of the bigger quartets or is the Rosamunde more popular (and I suppose I should realize this thread isn't just about picking the most "popular" quartets to listen to).

Anyways, I'm really enjoying this journey that I have started on with this thread - this was not at all where I thought I would go when I found this forum. Looking forward to what comes next. I've been busy most of the week with friends, but will be heading back home on Friday (if there is enough gas down here to get me there!) so I will resume my listening to Fanny's quartet. Although it looks like I started with the one that is getting a lot of praise (Ebene).


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## SearsPoncho

Clloydster said:


> Okay - so I have made some purchases based on that alphabetized list of what you all have covered, and I got a Takacs Quartet recording of Schubert's No. 13 Rosamunde quartet (because I really like his late symphonies) and I listened to the other quartet on there - No. 14 "Death and the Maiden" - and was really blown away. This one hasn't been discussed on here yet, right? Is this considered one of the bigger quartets or is the Rosamunde more popular (and I suppose I should realize this thread isn't just about picking the most "popular" quartets to listen to).
> 
> Anyways, I'm really enjoying this journey that I have started on with this thread - this was not at all where I thought I would go when I found this forum. Looking forward to what comes next. I've been busy most of the week with friends, but will be heading back home on Friday (if there is enough gas down here to get me there!) so I will resume my listening to Fanny's quartet. Although it looks like I started with the one that is getting a lot of praise (Ebene).


Schubert's "Death and the Maiden" Quartet is probably the most popular string quartet of them all. I don't believe it's been covered.


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## SearsPoncho

Re: The Death and the Maiden Quartet - Merl is saying, "Go ahead, make my day."


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## StevehamNY

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I find the funniest album cover to be the Ebene, any suggestions for a caption? How about: We should never have stopped for petrol in this hellhole. They stole our car --and-- our instruments!


I get more of a "trying to walk down the street looking as cool and rebellious as The Clash" vibe, but it ends up more like:










(Amazingly, and tragically, some younger members here may have never experienced this TV show.)


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Re: The Death and the Maiden Quartet - Merl is saying, "Go ahead, make my day."


Lol, SP. Please god no! I reckon there's probably in excess of 150. Not checked but seeing as it's the most recorded SQ in history and the last biggie was around the 100 mark that list must be around that higher number.

Edit: I've found 121 Death and the Maidens. Lol


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Lol, SP. Please god no! I reckon there's probably in excess of 150. Not checked but seeing as it's the most recorded SQ in history and the last biggie was around the 100 mark that list must be around that higher number.
> 
> Edit: I've found 121 Death and the Maidens. Lol


Ha! I was originally going to write, "Merl's internal monologue: 'Please don't do it. Please don't do it. Please don't do it.'"

Steve: The Quatuor Ebene might be more talented, but they will never, ever, ever be as cool as The Monkees. I'm sure Marcia Brady could have booked the Quatuor Ebene for her school's prom very easily. Extra points for those that got the reference without having to resort to google.


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## Carmina Banana

My first listen was with the group called, The Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet. It seemed like they should be the expert on this repertoire, but my reaction was:
Meh.
A lot of the lyrical material was a little too literal. I think it needs more give and take and nuance to work. The last movement sounded etude-like. And not in a good way.
By contrast, I really liked the Ebene recording. As always, it is musically thoughtful and emotionally intense. 
This morning I listened to the Lafayette Quartet and this is my favorite so far. It is very refined, sensitive, subtle, nuanced. The spirit of the last movement was finally captured, in my opinion. It turns out this is all about being playful and not very serious after all. 

I did not know this piece before, but I have looked into her music before and I think she is a very interesting composer. I did a little research in the past and I remember being puzzled by Felix’s attitude toward his sister’s work. His goal seemed to be to protect her from the harsh world that he was destined to be part of. It was fine that she dabbled in music, but a career in music was a completely different thing. 
I am often shocked at how little things have changed in some areas of music. I was at a school choir rehearsal once not that long ago and the director asked for volunteers to conduct one of the pieces. None of the students had experience. It was to be a learning experience. As usual the choir was 2/3 female or more but, of the volunteers, 8 were boys and 2 were girls.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Steve: The Quatuor Ebene might be more talented, but they will never, ever, ever be as cool as The Monkees. I'm sure Marcia Brady could have booked the Quatuor Ebene for her school's prom very easily. Extra points for those that got the reference without having to resort to google.










(I'm trying very hard to imagine a first violinist taking Davy Jones' place here...)


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## FastkeinBrahms

Carmina Banana said:


> My first listen was with the group called, The Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet. It seemed like they should be the expert on this repertoire, but my reaction was:
> Meh.
> A lot of the lyrical material was a little too literal. I think it needs more give and take and nuance to work. The last movement sounded etude-like. And not in a good way.
> By contrast, I really liked the Ebene recording. As always, it is musically thoughtful and emotionally intense.
> This morning I listened to the Lafayette Quartet and this is my favorite so far. It is very refined, sensitive, subtle, nuanced. The spirit of the last movement was finally captured, in my opinion. It turns out this is all about being playful and not very serious after all.
> 
> I did not know this piece before, but I have looked into her music before and I think she is a very interesting composer. I did a little research in the past and I remember being puzzled by Felix's attitude toward his sister's work. His goal seemed to be to protect her from the harsh world that he was destined to be part of. It was fine that she dabbled in music, but a career in music was a completely different thing.
> I am often shocked at how little things have changed in some areas of music. I was at a school choir rehearsal once not that long ago and the director asked for volunteers to conduct one of the pieces. None of the students had experience. It was to be a learning experience. As usual the choir was 2/3 female or more but, of the volunteers, 8 were boys and 2 were girls.


I think it was unavoidable that the gender in music question would come up and I have no complaint about that, having proposed this piece.

However, a few things: I am very glad that participants have focused on the music, which has produced again a great discussion, some were enthusiastic, others a bit less so, but always respectful. I think this is the best compliment to pay the composer : Listen to the music for what it is, and not as a part of the "women composer" niche. I have already commented on Felix 's possible motivation for criticizing her work. Just to add a comment on her father Abraham. He gets a lot of flak for allegedly discouraging Fanny from becoming a serious composer when she got married. Probably rightly so. However, this is the same father who made sure the daughter received the same high quality musical education as the son, especially by Zelter, Goethe's favourite Lied composer. By the way , the one area where I do believe she is on par with the greats of her time is indeed Lieder. Her Goethe songs are on par with Schubert and Schumann. So, yes, she did suffer from the patriarchal structure of her time, but she was lucky to be born into one of the most enlightened families of Prussia of her time where these factors were much less prominent than in the average family. The Mendelssohns were such a great gift.

And I also have a sweet spot for the Lafayette, I would include them with the Ebene and Nash to jointly hold the top spot.


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## starthrower

The Quatuor Ebéne recording of the F. Mendelssohn quartet is impressive and the performance vigorous and exciting! I really enjoyed the first three movements, the opening adagio in particular. The finale is a bit too over zealous with an over abundance of string sawing so I didn't really enjoy it all that much. But a good workout for the quartet players.


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## Carmina Banana

FastkeinBrahms,

You are absolutely right that this is a piece that deserves to be heard on its own merits apart from gender or anything else. I didn't mean to veer us off course. Back to the music.
I'm really glad you choose the piece. I have been looking into her lieder and there is some very interesting critical work about her poetic freedom in that genre. I'm interested in how that might influence this quartet.


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## Burbage

It's (nearly) Friday. So:

It is 1834 and five years since Fanny [Cäcilie] Mendelssohn [Bartholdy] Hensel, found herself married, perhaps willingly, to a painter born in the previous century who couldn't sing. They have a son and a house in Berlin but spend most Sundays at her parent's house, which still stands on Leipzig Street or, possibly more accurately, takes up about half of Leipzig Street. It is the sort of house that has other, smaller houses, for relatives and guests. In one of these the Hensels live. It is known as the 'garden house', though whether that's because it's in the garden, which is big enough to ride a horse around, or has another garden of its own, I do not know.

As well as relatives, there are also guests. Abraham Mendelssohn, who owns the place, is fond of music and, until three years ago, hosted concert parties every Sunday for the city's finest musicians, painters and patrons. In this way, he has managed to promote and marry off both his daughters. First Fanny to her painter. And then, Rebecka, the youngest, who took the name (as did some three-dozen abstruse concepts) of a young and thrusting mathematician in the foothills of his career. Rebecka could sing, and did so when permitted. But, as she later grizzled, "my older brother and sister stole my reputation as an artist".

Today, though, the family reputation is guarded and upheld by Fanny. As is the care of her parents, who are getting frail. The mathematician has taken Rebecka elsewhere and Felix is always somewhere else, Dusseldorf perhaps, when there's anything to be done. That does mean that Fanny can choose the music for the Sunday concerts, and she enjoys that, even if she must write it herself. Happily, she is good at writing music quickly. At least, she's better at it than her brother, who left her waiting so long for the music for her wedding that she was forced to write the recessional the day before, surrounded by guests, in two and a half hours flat.

This quartet, I suspect, will have taken a few weeks or months. I gather it was derived, or at least inspired, by the remains of a piano sonata, begun five years before, which had refused to turn sonata-shaped and so been quietly shelved. Why Fanny has taken it up again, to beat into a quartet, I don't know. Perhaps a quartet of players was due to visit. Or perhaps she's been thinking of the form since Felix's second (the 1st, in E minor) had been received so well four years before, or perhaps even the first (the 2nd, in A minor). It does all sound thoughtful and careful enough, except for the end of the first movement, which sounds, to my cynical ears, as much like a missing page as a wilful cliffhanger.

Felix, who could always be trusted to provide an opinion, if nothing else, thought Fanny's quartet rotten and, naturally, said as much. It was only played the once and, like most of her work, remained unpublished. Though it might have made no difference if it had, confusion being common, if not deliberate. Eight years later, for example, Felix would explain to Queen Victoria that a song she liked was by the other F Mendelssohn. And I'm sure a few of us will have had a similar experience when tiptoeing through digital marketplaces of musical ideas, littered, as they are, with unnumbered E-flat major quartets of ambiguous authorship. But, no matter, she liked this quartet and tucked it away, and thought about it sometimes, later wondering how she could have written it, not being, as she thought, "an eccentric or overly sentimental person". Yet, there it was, an eccentric and sentimental quartet.

But how could it have been different? That was how they'd been brought up. "We were young in Beethoven's last years and absorbed his style to a considerable degree" she wrote to Felix the following year, "But his style is exceedingly moving and emotional. You have gone through it from start to finish and progressed beyond it....I remain stuck in it, though not possessing the strength necessary to sustain that tenderness".

How much of this was genuine belief and how much diplomatic self-deprecation, I don't know. People are weird enough about each other, let alone about themselves. But, for what it's worth, it seems strong enough to me, and manages to sustain itself for 20 minutes. I'm not in a position to comment further, though I gather Beethoven's Op.74 is a good place to look for influences, that having influenced Felix's first (second) which, in turn, had influenced this. But that beginning, with its gothic gestures, seems to prefigure as much as it echoes.

I've been listening to the Cavaleri Quartet, having been seduced a couple of years ago by the Champs Hill bundle, featuring ten different ensembles (and an inevitable soprano), with which I'm as happy as I'm likely ever to be.


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## Carmina Banana

Burbage, 
I know that time machines don’t exist but I am convinced that you zap yourself into the past and back once a week for our benefit. I always enjoy your comments.


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## Carmina Banana

I am increasingly fascinated by this piece. Even though I have heard it multiple times, it continues to confound my expectations. The pattern seems to be an opening section that is dramatically disrupted and either never comes back or is so transformed by the middle section that when it does come back, it is really a new creature. 
As an example, the Allegretto movement starts with a very organized sounding scherzo-like theme and then a vigorous contrapuntal section takes over. After the excitement dies down, I want and expect the “A” section to return and balance things out. I desperately want this. We get hints of it, but it never really comes back! 
The romance is another example, after the beautiful lyrical first section, we are taken on a wild ride of painfully searching sequences. When things finally subside, instead of recapping, we get a brief reminder of the opening material but after a few measures, the first violin wanders off into a cadenza and takes us back to the drama followed by an unexpected glimpse of heavenly repose.

One could say that this music is somewhere between Beethoven struggling with form and the through-composed meandering of some romantic composers. It is a compelling sort of music. At its heart, I would call it transformational and truly romantic. 

I just listened to the Merel Quartet and I highly recommend. They really brought the piece to life for me.

Also, I would be curious if anyone has watched the Attaca quartet on youtube. They have a visually interesting performing style that could enhance or distract depending on your point of view. I think their performance is very good.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Choice this week goes to *Burbage*...

Here's an updated alphabetized list of quartets:

Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
Bax - String Quartet No. 1
Beethoven - String Quartets No. 7 "Razumovsky No. 1," 14, 16
Berg - Lyric Suite
Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
Britten - String Quartet No. 3
Carter - String Quartet No. 3
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime"
Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
Dvořák - String Quartets No. 13, 14
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
Frank - Quijotidas
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
Haydn - String Quartets in G Minor Op. 20/3, F Minor Op. 20/5
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
Ives - String Quartet No. 2
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
Lachenmann - Gran Torso
Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
Lutosławski - String Quartet
Martinů - String Quartet No. 7 "Concerto da Camera"
Fanny Mendelssohn - String Quartet in E-Flat Major
Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" 
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
Reger - String Quartet No. 4
Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics 
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4 
Schubert - String Quartets No. 13 "Rosamunde," 15
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
Shostakovich - String Quartets No. 2, 4, 8
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
Tchaikovsky - String Quartet No. 1
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
Villa-Lobos - String Quartet No. 14
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
Xenakis - Tetras


----------



## Merl

^ Wow, it's amazing how many we've worked through.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just to say thanks to all for your great comments this week! I just love this piece. To me, it has tremendous emotional depth, on top of the great lied-inspired melodies and vituosity in the fast movements. A unique musical voice despite the obvious models she built on, like Beethoven. Looking forward to next weeks' choice!


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## Helgi

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I find the funniest album cover to be the Ebene, any suggestions for a caption? How about: We should never have stopped for petrol in this hellhole. They stole our car --and-- our instruments!











Edit:



Merl said:


> ... The new cover of choice for the younger quartets either seems to revive around some silly quartet formation / pose with instruments or the 'walking along a la Reservoir Dogs'.


Haha, I see you beat me to it.


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> ^ Wow, it's amazing how many we've worked through.


Yes, only think there are maybe 6 or 7 left to do


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## FastkeinBrahms

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, only think there are maybe 6 or 7 left to do


???? That would be quite depressing. Life without further string quartets would be possible, but pointless.


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## Burbage

As it's now Sunday, or as near as makes no difference, I've done this, before I can change my mind.

This was harder than I thought it would be. Perhaps that's because, in response to justified criticism, I tried to apply strictly numerological principles to the process of selection rather than be guided by my mere, and doubtless sclerotic, heart.

We have, as is clear from the list above, now covered almost every decade since the properly-defined string quartet emerged from the primordial swamp of divertimenti and/or viol consorts. And we've included almost every male composer of note that happened to be Austrian, German or Russian. As others have observed, however, there are up to six or seven holes in our survey. Of the 72 quartets, not one has been written by an Italian. And, of all the composers we've studied, not one was born under the sign of Capricorn.

A sturdy rationalist might, therefore, simply select a quartet from an under-represented decade written by an Italian, Capricorn composer. That sounds easy enough, but once you've weeded out the likes of Pergolesi, who forgot to invent the quartet in time to write any, you're left with nothing but Aquarians and Sagittarians who stubbornly rule themselves out. The nearest I've found is Sylvio Lazzari, who was mostly French, and whose only string quartet remains unrecorded. The score is freely available, admittedly, but the thought of Merl having to swap his thumb-drive for a kazoo, even for only a week, is not a pleasant one, and a likely hazard to traffic.

Other Capricornian composers are available, of course. There's Tippett and Higdon and Kabalevsky, all of whom have written recommendable quartets, but they're not noticeably Italian. That said, Italy isn't the only nation missing from our little atlas. We've not yet been to Japan, either. Though the only Japanese Capricorn composer I can find, Kiyoshi Nobutoki, doesn't seem to have written any string quartets.

I was very tempted to give up, and surrender to Janacek, who has been such a looming presence that we keep wondering if we haven't done him already. Or let Capricorns go hang and plump for Respighi or Malipiero. Or fudge the issue shamelessly, and inflict Moeran on everyone, as a composer sort-of from Ireland (or, at least, who studied under Ireland). Sweet though he is, however, I wouldn't want to listen to him for a week. And then Dalberg who, like Janacek, is trustworthily Cancerian, sprang to mind.

At this point, I was on the verge of ditching the number-crunching and settling for Vaughan Williams's 1st, for utterly sentimental reasons. But it's a bit soon after the Debussy (and the Ravel, for that matter) and, like the Moeran, I'm not sure there's a deal to be had from repeated listenings (though perhaps familiarity has worked its baleful magic). I prefer the C minor, a student work, in any case, which plays with ancient airs and graces, in the way Resphighi, Malipiero and Rochberg like to do. But that's hard to find, and not on Naxos. But meanwhile, it had got me wondering about themes and variations and, inevitably, of Simpson's majestic (and obsessive) ninth. But that takes an hour, and isn't on Naxos, either. And, more to the point, Simpson's a Pisces.

All of which brought me back, not entirely by dint of pacifism, to *Tippett's String Quartet No. 2* which I heartily commend to the thread.

I won't say anything about it because, to be honest, it's a piece I've meant to listen to more often than I have done, and so it's going to be almost as interesting for me as for those who've not met it before. Except to say that, I'd be happy to recommend it even if he'd been a Sagittarian (of which we've had, partly thanks to Beethoven, something of a surfeit).

There's not a great deal for Merl and StevehamNY to do this week (they may console themselves with the thought that time with a kazoo is rarely wasted), but it does have five recordings listed on Earsense* including one by the Britten Quartet, which I might have embedded below, whose Vaughan Williams 1 and Ravel (now also deleted from the catalogues) first piqued my interest in string quartets a mere thirty years ago. But that's another story.






* https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Michael-Tippett-String-Quartet-No-2/


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## Allegro Con Brio

Your sonorous prose is always so delightful to read, Burbage The only piece I’ve heard of Tippett’s is his piano concerto, which I recall as possessing a unique musical language that I was neither tempted to explore further nor abandon completely. Looks like I’ll be exploring it further this week!

And did you look up all of those composers to find out their astrological signs? That’s dedication!


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## Merl

Nice choice, Burbage. I have the Lindsays recording but no others. Here are the recordings I could find:

Britten
Heath
Lindsays
Tippett quartet
Zorian
Fidelio
Kreutzer
Amadeus (RIAS live 1950)
Amadeus (SWR live 1951)
Amadeus (studio 1956)


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## SearsPoncho

Nice pick, Burbage. This will be a good one because I believe I will need to hear it several times throughout the week; it doesn't easily or fully reveal itself with one spin. I only know Tippet's Double Concerto for Strings. On first listen, it has its musical legs in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, although it definitely appears to be a child of its time. A heck of a lot of interesting counterpoint which I will need to further explore throughout the week. I'm guessing it's probably described as neo_________? Probably neo-Classical, but that description might apply to, heck, the majority of 20th Century classical music. This doesn't sound too far removed from Hindemith, Stravinsky, and even a touch of Bartok, Beethoven and Bach. 

I'm looking forward to more Tippett #2 this week. I'm fairly confident that my thoughts on it will be significantly different in one week, and that's a good thing (Hey, do I have to pay Martha Stewart some money for using that phrase?).


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## Bwv 1080

As much as I hate astrology, I approve the choice, although surprised and somewhat disappointed that it lists a key signature. So not the Tippett I know from his 70s and 80s works. Hopefully no English folk tunes in it


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## StevehamNY

Burbage said:


> The nearest I've found is Sylvio Lazzari, who was mostly French, and whose only string quartet remains unrecorded. The score is freely available, admittedly, but the thought of Merl having to swap his thumb-drive for a kazoo, even for only a week, is not a pleasant one, and a likely hazard to traffic.


Looking forward to the Tippett piece, but am I the only one who's secretly a little disappointed we won't be hearing any kazoos this week?

(And not that it matters at all, but I'm a Capricorn myself, and also married to a Capricorn. So here's to goat power or something?)


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## Merl

I am personally relieved there will be no kazoo this week although, as a Sagittarian, I would have relished the challenge (and probably would have filmed the whole thing, making a small documentary in the process). I like Tippett's 2nd quartet but don't know it well enough, even though I've had that Lindsays disc for years. I'll be having a listen later, probably whilst ironing a few shirts for work.

Edit: Tippett and the iron.


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## annaw

A wonderful intro post, Burbage! I am not overly familiar with Tippett's string quartets either, but I heard parts of them some time ago. I'm currently familiarising myself with the quartet by listening to the Lindsays performance. I must say that I don't think the British 20th century composers have ever really clicked with me so far - some works have but I have never really fallen in love with their compositional styles in general. It's quite unfortunate, but I'm interested to see if Tippett's quartet might change my opinion.

After the first listen, I can say that I enjoy the emotional dualism of this quartet - the quick and cheerful Presto is very refreshing and easing after the gloomier fugue-like Andante. No wonder the Andante also happens to be potentially influenced by events during the WW2 (Heath quartet's booklet has some interesting background information). Even the first movement seems to fluctuate between agitation and certain light-heartedness during different passages, and the last movement is serious but I don't find it as unsettling as the Andante.

It's undoubtedly an interesting work, and I'm excited to discover it further!

EDIT: I'm now listening to the Heath quartet's performance and they have an absolutely amazing, full sound and interesting phrasing and dynamics. They seem to me more delicate and less forceful than the Lindsays, and I find that very enjoyable. Their second movement is anguished but not downright depressing and the Presto is dazzling, although slower than the Lindsays's.


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## sbmonty

This will be my first listen to a Tippett composition. Looking forward to listening and the revelatory comments surely to follow.
Thanks!


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## starthrower

Tippett is a composer whose music I want to further explore. Several years ago I bought the Ogden piano disc, and the Nimbus 4 CD Portrait set. I gave one listen to the Britten Quartet and liked what I heard. While I was on YouTube last night I listened to the 50 minute conversation with Tippett at age 90. It's mostly about life rather than music. He was a thoughtful and courageous man who lived his convictions and went to prison for refusing to participate in the war effort. I'm looking forward to listening to all of his quartets and doing some more concentrated listening to his symphonies.


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## FastkeinBrahms

This is entirely new territory for me. After having listened to the Heath Quartet, I am looking forward to more listens during this holiday week of mine. I found this music to be most refreshing to the mind. The Scherzo is a crowd pleaser, but I was most taken by the slow movement. I read that Tippett was an almost monomaniacal student of Beethoven but the Andante had something about the forlorn seriousness of the Musikalisches Opfer about it. The two highly syncopated outer movements have something almost minimalistic about them although they are not written in that style. Maybe it is the very gradually shifting mood and the contrapuntal strictness that creates this effect. This quartet held my attention throughout, which is always a good sign. I ordered the Amadeus Rias two CD issue with other 20th Century stuff as well as the Tippett Quartett on Naxos and hope those arrive in time.


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## Merl

I've listened to the *Heath* and *Britten* (courtesy of Spotify) and the *Lindsays* as I ripped it to the USB last night. The Heaths are quite light and very tight in their traversal whilst the Lindsays are spikier and more abrasive (with some tiny moments of dodgy intonation). The Brittens tread a line between the two. Interestingly the Lindsays spent some time with the composer, who coached them intensely to play these quartets, back in the mid-70s. I'm not sure whose approach I prefer at the moment. I need to get familiar with this quartet before I can decide which one(s) resonate with me.



FastkeinBrahms said:


> .... I read that Tippett was an almost monomaniacal student of Beethoven.. . .


This is taken from the Heath Quartet's booklet notes...

_".... String Quartet No. 2, its classically shaped
four movements combining the now familiar
influences of Tippett's musical gods - Purcell,
Beethoven, English madrigalists - has as its
slow movement a fugue, the theme of which
Tippett first jotted down in 1938 in response to
the Munich Agreement, the settlement permitting
Nazi Germany's annexation of portions of
Czechoslovakia. Tippett, a committed pacifist,
had conflicting views on the agreement, and on
the costs of appeasement and 'peace with
honour'. Three years later, when he came to write
the quartet, war raged and the prospect of a
prison sentence loomed: he had refused the
condition of his conscientious objection tribunal,
arguing that music was his most constructive
contribution to society. As he wrote to a friend
during the quartet's composition: 'Work has
gone well & the 4tet moves. But the prison walls
worry me & sometimes dry everything up. I am
frightened in my body tho unafraid in my mind'.
The quartet (which its composer called 'a mild
wow in its way') was premièred at the end of
March 1943; by the end of June, Tippett was
serving a three-month sentence in Wormwood
Scrubs, though he was released a month early, on
23 August, in time to hear a performance of
the quartet that very evening. The piece, for all
the bar-line-defying energy of its lyrical first
movement, its quicksilver Scherzo, and dramatic
finale, has at its centre that shuffling five-bar
shard of a theme from 1938, its halting quality
exacerbated by a carefully marked awkwardness
in the use of up-bows and down-bows. It is
worked into a harmonically unsettled fugue, from
the memory of which even the eventual repose of
the finale struggles to escape...."_


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## Carmina Banana

There are a couple elements that made it hard for me to appreciate this piece right away: the composite effect of a run-on sentence at times and the tendency for the counterpoint to bunch up at the same general area so we hear a lot of seconds instead of the usual wide spacing we associate with string quartet writing. Add to the that the meter changes and ambiguity in phrasing and my brain was going, too much stimulation!
After a few listens, however, I am starting to realize how rich this piece is. I have listened several times and I am only scratching the surface. The expression, for the most part, lies in the group, not the individual. This style of writing harkens back to baroque and earlier, but the way Tippett used it seems to convey a modern message: listen to all of the voices, not just the flashiest or more prominent. I am finding it challenging listening, but increasingly satisfying listening.
So far, the Lindsays are my guide.


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## Bwv 1080

Listening to Britten Qt, the opening movement sounds very Stravinsky-like, and would have preferred a more rhythmic approach than they took. Found the fugue quite effective. The third movement reminds me of Prokofiev while the final sounds more English

The Tippett Qt on Naxos gets the rhythm down better on the first movement. Less vibrato on the fugue gives it more an early music vibe which is cool. 


Have not listened to Lindsays yet, but to me the Tippett edges out Britten - again proving BWVs dictum that the quartet named after the composer is the best first choice for this thread.

also Qt4 that comes next on the Tippet Qt recording I am liking better, seems more MT's mature voice


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## HenryPenfold

This is a great quartet. But I suppose it should be given that Beethoven wrote most of it!


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> This is a great quartet. But I suppose it should be given that Beethoven wrote most of it!


The 2nd movement does bear a resemblance to the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 131.


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## Allegro Con Brio

My initial listen evoked a perception eerily similar to a sentiment expressed by Carmina Banana - that much of it sounds like a “musical run-on sentence.” The creative energy is exhilirating, no doubt about that - but I found my attention drifting as there was no room to catch one’s breath and many of the gestures seemed repetitive with little development. The first movement, in particular, is just a huge moto perpetuo. In the second movement, I echo Henry’s observation on the connection to Beethoven’s 14th and FastkeinBrahms on the striking resemblance to Bach’s Musical Offering. Either way it’s a sober, ascetic, and effective piece that also reminded me of Hindemith’s style in some ways. The scherzo and finale were both fun and the latter added a bit more of the contrast I was looking for but it’s still something that will require several more listens for me to digest. It’s a bold and assertive musical language, and one that seems like it’s worth understanding. Maybe it was more the fault of the Lindsay recording, which I thought sounded rather shaggy and abrasive in tone.


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## StevehamNY

* Dumb Question Alert *

To the extent that many Russian string quartets may share certain qualities, coming as they do from a common experience, pedagogy, and/or culture (and extending the same idea to Czech quartets, or French, or German, or name the region)... Are there distinctive qualities in a quartet that you'd identify as "British"? I've read references to the "pastoral" quality of many such works, but in musical terms I'm not sure what that means. (Aside from a cow mooing, I don't even know what "pastoral" sounds like.)

Asking for a friend who hasn't totally connected with many British composers quite yet. (Except maybe McEwen, but he kinda sounds more like a man wearing a tartan kilt in Paris.)

* End Dumb Question Alert *


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## Merl

Like with other composers, their nationality only becomes more distinct through the use of national folk tunes and even then its not always obvious. The best way to suss out if it's a British composer's work is to wait until it says 'tea-break' in the score. :tiphat:

*_Warning - this post may contain a cultural stereotype. _


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## annaw

StevehamNY said:


> * Dumb Question Alert *
> 
> To the extent that many Russian string quartets may share certain qualities, coming as they do from a common experience, pedagogy, and/or culture (and extending the same idea to Czech quartets, or French, or German, or name the region)... Are there distinctive qualities in a quartet that you'd identify as "British"? I've read references to the "pastoral" quality of many such works, but in musical terms I'm not sure what that means. (Aside from a cow mooing, I don't even know what "pastoral" sounds like.)
> 
> Asking for a friend who hasn't totally connected with many British composers quite yet. (Except maybe McEwen, but he kinda sounds more like a man wearing a tartan kilt in Paris.)
> 
> * End Dumb Question Alert *


The only British composer whom I'd call pastoral is Vaughan Williams but he's also the only one who is vaguely comparable to the members of the late-Romantic nationalist music movement elsewhere in Europe (e.g. Sibelius, Dvorak, Janacek etc.). Maybe Elgar too, but I am embarrassingly unacquainted with a lot of his music.

Beyond him, I cannot think of another "pastoral" British composer in the 20th century. I was sampling Britten's Spring symphony yesterday in hope that it would be a light-hearted work. Instead, he somehow managed to make even spring sound occasionally a bit gloomy. Britten, Walton, Bax, Tippett etc. were all affected by the first or the second world war - probably that left its mark on the 20th century British music.

On the other hand, maybe the reason the British composers have never clicked with me properly is that I haven't just realised that I should consider "tea-break" to be a folk tune :lol:.


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## starthrower

> Beyond him, I cannot think of another "pastoral" British composer in the 20th century.


George Butterworth? He was killed in the first world war at age 31 but left some orchestral pieces with titles such as The Banks Of Green Willow, and Two English Idylls. Both Butterworth, and Vaughan Williams were inspired by the poetry of A.E. Houseman. The collection of poems, A Shopshire Lad, in particular.


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## Bwv 1080

here is some 20th century English pastoralism


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## annaw

starthrower said:


> George Butterworth? He was killed in the first world war at age 31 but left some orchestral pieces with titles such as The Banks Of Green Willow, and Two English Idylls. Both Butterworth, and Vaughan Williams were inspired by the poetry of A.E. Houseman. The collection of poems, A Shopshire Lad, in particular.


I have to admit that I haven't heard of him before but then again I cannot pretend to be particularly knowledgeable of British classical music. I'm listening to _The Banks of Green Willow_ on Spotify at the moment and it's a lovely piece. Thanks for bringing him up !

EDIT: We've reached the 200th page!


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## Merl

I had a listen to the two Amadeus live recordings today. The SWR recording is slightly better recorded but I wasn't significantly impressed by either. Certainly not enough to choose them above or on a level with others I've heard in infinitely better sound. I'm just trying to track down the Amadeus' studio account now to complete my round-up.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post. I couldn't track down the Amadeus studio recording so here's what I think. Firstly, I'm not a huge fan of this quartet. It's not bad but not in the league of many of the SQs we've had in this thread. Repeated listens of the recordings and my own Lindsays disc have not made me fall in love with this quartet.

*Recommended*

*Lindsays* - if you want a vigorous and tougher interpretation then the Lindsays may be for you. They play with great commitment and force but their intonation does tend to stray occasionally. It's still a fine recording, though.
*Heath* - as an antidote to the Lindsays, the gentler, immaculately played Heath performance may be the right one. The ensemble playing and recording may be excellent but it's a little light for me, perhaps I miss the harder-hitting Lindsays. Interesting dynamics and stylings.
*Tippett Qrtt *- for a performance between the lightness of the Heaths and the directness of the Lindsays the Tippett Quartet are probably your best bet. Another fine recording and an easy recommendation.

*Slight top pick*









*Britten Quartet*
Whilst others will no doubt have their own best recordings of this one, I've gone for the Britten Quartet. They are more forceful and convincing for me in the presto, in particular, and they just shaded the others for being the most convincing in their vision. If you prefer the other recommendables I mentioned that's down to you and I wouldn't argue. I just preferred the Britten's more forthright style.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> Apologies for the double post. I couldn't track down the Amadeus studio recording so here's what I think. Firstly, I'm not a huge fan of this quartet. It's not bad but not in the league of many of the SQs we've had in this thread. Repeated listens of the recordings and my own Lindsays disc have not made me fall in love with this quartet.
> 
> *Recommended*
> 
> *Lindsays* - if you want a vigorous and tougher interpretation then the Lindsays may be for you. They play with great commitment and force but their intonation does tend to stray occasionally. It's still a fine recording, though.
> *Heath* - as an antidote to the Lindsays, the gentler, immaculately played Heath performance may be the right one. The ensemble playing and recording may be excellent but it's a little light for me, perhaps I miss the harder-hitting Lindsays. Interesting dynamics and stylings.
> *Tippett Qrtt *- for a performance between the lightness of the Heaths and the directness of the Lindsays the Tippett Quartet are probably your best bet. Another fine recording and an easy recommendation.
> 
> *Slight top pick*
> 
> View attachment 155390
> 
> 
> *Britten Quartet*
> Whilst others will no doubt have their own best recordings of this one, I've gone for the Britten Quartet. They are more forceful and convincing for me in the presto, in particular, and they just shaded the others for being the most convincing in their vision. If you prefer the other recommendables I mentioned that's down to you and I wouldn't argue. I just preferred the Britten's more forthright style.


I am still waiting for my Amadeus Rias CDS to arrive. Is that the one you could not track down?


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## HenryPenfold

I have three recordings, an old EMI CD by the Amadeus Quartet, The Tippet Quartet on Naxos and the Heath Quartet.

I have a preference for the Heath Quartet. The performance as the vitality and power that the music needs, as well as beauty and warmth - quite surprising for a live recording, I've attended concerts at the Wigmore Hall quite often and it does have a lovely acoustic.

I'm sure I've said this before - the Oliver Soden Tippett biography is first class and only £2.99 for the Kindle version on Amazon UK. I would strongly recommend it.


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## Carmina Banana

My morning listen was the Tippett quartet playing the Tippett quartet (I hate the confusion this causes. To all musicians: find an interesting name for your quartet that is not a composer's name, please). 
This is a whole different angle on the piece, compared to the Lindsays. As BWV noted, this approach is more about rhythm. There is generally a little more space between notes which makes the rhythm easy to hear and understand. The slow movement starts non-vibrato and with much shorter quarter notes. In general, the Tippetts don’t get excited throughout the piece, but appear to be of the attitude: we’ll let the music speak for itself. 

I am a bit torn about this recording. The Lindsays bring out the beauty of this second movement. They add a lot of warmth and humanity to it. But the Tippetts play the other movements with rhythmic clarity and contrapuntal transparency. The rhythmic excitement is what made me like the Concerto for Double String Orchestra so much when I was younger. 

There is something that I have noticed about musicians: some approach music with the assumption that things are going to be pretty much rhythmically as written. Then there are those who believe that every phrase needs to go forward or hang back according to its expressive needs. This expressive need always trumps the actual rhythm and tempo. Of course, every good musician will take things like style into consideration as well.

I’m not an expert on either of these groups, but I would guess the Tippetts are in the first camp and the Lindsays in the second.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I am still waiting for my Amadeus Rias CDS to arrive. Is that the one you could not track down?


No, ive listened to both Amadeus live versions (SWR and RIAS). The one i wanted to hear was the Amadeus' 1956 studio recording which was later rereleased in the cover below.


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## StevehamNY

Not much to say about the covers (leaves vs. old pilings in water vs. the quartet vamping on a staircase), but I am kinda intrigued by the thousand birds (flamingos?) on the cover above^!

Just to brag for one second, the reason I was away from the computer today was that I was watching my daughter graduate Summa Cum Laude from UAlbany. She'll be starting a one-year position as a research associate at the Yale School of Medicine before going on to grad school. So yeah, just a little bit proud of her, although I'm also amazed at how fast the time went! (I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has experienced this feeling.)

End bragging, back to music. And thanks as always, Merl, for the great roundup!


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## starthrower

Congrats, Steve! Upstate NY is beautiful this time of year. The wife and I have been taking rides through the country and stopping in the rural college towns for walks and lunch. All the best to your daughter!


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## Enthusiast

The Tippett has dragged me back to this often time consuming thread! It has long been a work I am very fond of. Written in 1942, it seems to look forward to the style that Tippett perfected some ten years later. I have four recordings - the Amadeus (studio), the Britten, the Heath and the Kreutzer - and enjoy them all. But I rarely listen to the Amadeus recording these days. You get used to the sound but it still comes over as a work and composer that is new and less in the players' blood than the other three. The Britten and the Kreutzer Quartets are both good - the Britten in particular is a fine performance (wonderful slow movement!) if a little controlled - but it is the Heath Quartet's performance that seems to me the most rewarding. It seems to tell me a little more about the music than the others, to be more willing to let the wonderful sonorities that Tippett conjures hint at the ecstatic (something that became much more overt in some slightly later works like the Corelli Fantasia) and less reliant on presenting the music as "generic Beethovenian quartet music".


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## Merl

^ Nice to have you back, Enthusiast. Missed you. Seems that the Heaths are the choice for many in this one and I'm not surprised, as it's a fine recording (trust me to recommend the Britten). Unfortunately I didn't get to hear the Kreutzer performance. 

PS. I agree it is a time consuming thread but it's a nice bunch of posters here, currently. They are costing me a lot of money though (and vice-versa).


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## Enthusiast

^ Yes I never had the bug for this thread as bad as you do, Merl! God knows how you do it.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Yes I never had the bug for this thread as bad as you do, Merl! God knows how you do it.


Lol, I get the bit between my teeth on something and I tend to throw everything behind that particular object of my desire. It's not a great character trait but I like to contribute fully. I do get obsessive about stuff though.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Lol, I get the bit between my teeth on something and I tend to throw everything behind that particular object of my desire. It's not a great character trait but I like to contribute fully. I do get obsessive about stuff though.


Merl, you share this trait with some of the most highly accomplished achievers in the history of humankind.

(And also with many crazy people, but we won't go there.)


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## Malx

This is a quartet that is completely new to me, having no recordings of it I have been reliant on Qobuz for my listening.
I have listened a number of times to each of the Lindsays, Heath and Tippett recordings and after getting over the shock of Tippett not sounding as I expected - more conservative than I anticipated - I ended up enjoying the piece. Definite shades of late Beethoven kicking about in places - does that mean Beethoven was so far ahead of his time or that Tippett was looking back, probably both.
In terms of the recordings I enjoyed them all, the Heath and Lindsays playing with more warmth than the slightly distant, cooler - may I suggest more modern approach from the Tippett Quartet. I'd be happy to have the Heath and for an alternative take the Tippett's recordings in my collection, but for now I'll stick with listening on Qobuz as the bank of Malx is suffering cash flow issues!

Edit: so little will power - having spotted the Heath recordings on eBay at a reasonable price and making an offer below said price that the seller accepted I pressed the buy button.


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## Enthusiast

^ Tippett had a Beethoven obsession throughout his life, even including a big quote from the 9th symphony in a pivotal position in his 3rd symphony.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Somebody asked earlier about the "Englishness" of this music. I have hardly listened to any other pieces by Tippett. Judging from this quartet alone it seems to me that he had a rather "absolute" approach to music and did not care about any national or other "school", let alone create a specific one on his own.

Certainly nothing "folksy" about this quartet. After having listened to the entire seven disk Supraphone Vol. III of Dvorak's more obscure chamber music, this was a welcome change. Melodic music is wonderful but after the seven Dvorak disks I felt like having overeaten on some luxury food. Cerebral Tippett is an excellent musical digestif.

Unfortunately, my Tippett and Amadeus CDs have not arrived, yet. I am glad that some participants also highly regard the Heath recording, which I really liked.


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## Carmina Banana

This morning I checked out the Heath recording. It could just be that the last I heard is my favorite (kind of like my favorite beer is the one in my hand?), but I think they really do this piece justice. First of all, special commendation for releasing a live recording. Not an easy piece, I’m sure, and then to do it without studio splicing magic? 
I particularly appreciate their approach to voicing. Despite every part having equal melodic importance, in the interest of the greater good, they highlight certain voices so we are not bombarded by too much at a time. I think it works well as a performing strategy. 

I discovered that if you go to the Schott website, you can see a watermarked version of the study score. Not ideal, but it was enough to make a couple observations. What struck me the most was how he manipulates the rhythmic structure with notation.
The opening theme of the second movement is carefully marked with tenutos. In fact, he puts a tenuto mark (dash) on all of the notes and then writes “ten” above the second note in the measure, bending over backwards, I think, to discourage musicians from playing this movement with the natural metrical inflections of the time signature (3/4). 
The third movement, as one could intuit is continuously changing meters (3/8,5/8,2/4,3/8, etc.) ala Stravinsky and others.
The last movement fluidly changes from a dotted eight note rhythm pattern into faster triplets into sixteenth notes and then gradually back to slower note values by the end of the piece. In other words, the relative motion of the piece ebbs and flows very naturally and sort of creates the structure of the piece as much as other elements like melody and harmony.
In general, I am gaining more and more appreciation for the way this quartet is painstakingly created to appear effortlessly spontaneous. It is elusive, but in a very deliberate way.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Carmina Banana said:


> This morning I checked out the Heath recording. It could just be that the last I heard is my favorite (kind of like my favorite beer is the one in my hand?), but I think they really do this piece justice. First of all, special commendation for releasing a live recording. Not an easy piece, I'm sure, and then to do it without studio splicing magic?
> I particularly appreciate their approach to voicing. Despite every part having equal melodic importance, in the interest of the greater good, they highlight certain voices so we are not bombarded by too much at a time. I think it works well as a performing strategy.
> 
> I discovered that if you go to the Schott website, you can see a watermarked version of the study score. Not ideal, but it was enough to make a couple observations. What struck me the most was how he manipulates the rhythmic structure with notation.
> The opening theme of the second movement is carefully marked with tenutos. In fact, he puts a tenuto mark (dash) on all of the notes and then writes "ten" above the second note in the measure, bending over backwards, I think, to discourage musicians from playing this movement with the natural metrical inflections of the time signature (3/4).
> The third movement, as one could intuit is continuously changing meters (3/8,5/8,2/4,3/8, etc.) ala Stravinsky and others.
> The last movement fluidly changes from a dotted eight note rhythm pattern into faster triplets into sixteenth notes and then gradually back to slower note values by the end of the piece. In other words, the relative motion of the piece ebbs and flows very naturally and sort of creates the structure of the piece as much as other elements like melody and harmony.
> In general, I am gaining more and more appreciation for the way this quartet is painstakingly created to appear effortlessly spontaneous. It is elusive, but in a very deliberate way.


Thanks for pointing out the refinement of his rhythms. I read a little bit about his use of "anticipatory" and "additive" rhythms. I can't claim I understand it all but it certainly has a mesmerizing effect. BTW, I thought I had no other Tippett in the house after I found his piano concerto in a Colin Davis early recordings box - fascinating!


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## Merl

Incidentally, another of my revisit projects from the early days of this thread is now complete. I've blogged my SQ review of all recordings of *Smetana's 1st quartet.* If you're interested check out the link below.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3468-smetana-string-quartet-1-a.html


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> I am personally relieved there will be no kazoo this week although, as a Sagittarian, I would have relished the challenge (and probably would have filmed the whole thing, making a small documentary in the process). I like Tippett's 2nd quartet but don't know it well enough, even though I've had that Lindsays disc for years. I'll be having a listen later, probably whilst ironing a few shirts for work.
> 
> Edit: Tippett and the iron.
> 
> View attachment 155278


I just noticed all the axes in the background. Merl, got a favorite? I'm down to two, but I really just play piano, a Baldwin, these days.

As for Tippet's 2nd...

Would you guys consider this his best quartet? If not, which one would it be? I expected this quartet to get better throughout the week, however, I'm not sure that's happening.

Between the Britten Qt and the Lindsays, I preferred the Britten. It had sharper elbows and seemed to emphasize the more "modern" aspects of the music. Lindsays were a bit more romantic and less aggressive. This shows how we all hear things differently.

And big-time congratulations to Steve and his daughter!


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Heath and Tippett Quartets convinced me much more than that rather harsh and spiky Lindsay recording. In very similar interpretations, they find a smiling grace in the first movement that makes it sound like more than a mere moto perpetuo, take the second movement at a quicker, more natural pace, and flesh out the finale for all it’s worth. To be honest though, I can’t say that this one is speaking to me much. The music seems to lack a sense of direction; it seems too concerned with formal perfection to the extent that purpose gets lost. Every time I try to focus in, I inevitably find my attention wandering within a few seconds. It’s frustrating because it’s not often that I have that reaction to music, but for some reason I just can’t stay engaged at all with the first two movements, they lack any sense of variety and trajectory to my ears. The finale is a bit better but just sounds like an alternation of two ideas with little development. So, just as many of you were indifferent to the Villa-Lobos while I loved it, it looks like the roles are reversed this week. But please know that I never consider the process of listening to any of these selections anything less than totally worthwhile. It familiarizes me with various styles and artistic approaches, and I have to admit that Tippett’s idiom is a very unique and audacious one. It just looks like for now, as I’ve sampled some of his other works, that a deep dive into his music will have to wait for another time in my life.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> I just noticed all the axes in the background. Merl, got a favorite? I'm down to two, but I really just play piano, a Baldwin, these days.


I have 5 electric guitars and 3 acoustics (one is a semi-acoustic). 4 of my electrics are Les Paul copies (I can't afford a Gibson and tbh the Vintages are class guitars). My fave of the those is a Vintage V100 AFD Paradise (Slash copy). I'm gonna sell 2 of them soon as I rarely play those two.


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## Enthusiast

SearsPoncho said:


> As for Tippet's 2nd...
> 
> Would you guys consider this his best quartet? If not, which one would it be? I expected this quartet to get better throughout the week, however, I'm not sure that's happening.


Probably not. It is an early work and I think the next quartet (#3 - also an early work from the 1940s) is as good or better. The two later ones are mature works (1978 and 1991 - one of his last works), quite different and not easy to compare but both seemingly of more substance than the earlier works.


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## Burbage

It's (still, just about) Friday, so I've done [email protected]

Morley College for Working Men and Women, now eroded by time and reality to plain “Morley College” lies not far from where I type, in what Tippett called “one of the shabbiest districts in London”. But I have to confess I’ve not paid it much attention. Although Tippet is memorialised locally - there is a Tippett College, a Tippett School and a Tippett Foundation, not to mention the Tippett Quartet - its most famous Director of Music remains, bizarrely, Gustav Holst, an indifferent crowd-pleaser who brutishly neglected the string quartet.

There are some who reckon Tippett, like Simpson, remains stubbornly on the sidelines because they chose an indolent publisher. Perhaps a more plausible reason is their pacifism, which is still frowned upon by an Establishment forever in the grip of a nationalist spasm. Even when the lights of Holst and Vaughan Williams dim, as happens from time to time, their candles are kept burning in the churches and cathedrals of England, as are those of Finzi and Rubbra, but you’ll look in vain for Tippett or Simpson in the books of hymns and anthems.

That was probably inevitable for Tippett. Despite his louche, patrician tones, Tippett was not a natural product of England’s fine public (private) schools. I suspect his mother (who declared his imprisonment her proudest moment) wasn’t so keen on her lad being sent away. But posh schools confer advantage and are still the ‘right thing to do’, if you have the money, or can wangle a scholarship, especially for those who move abroad where (as Dvorak hinted a few weeks ago), the ways of raising children are all wrong. There is, however, a big difference between being locked up in an educational facility because your father owns most of a city, and being sent there on a bursary for reasons of convenience. So I’m not surprised that Tippett seems to have had a fairly beastly time.

For many, early feelings of exclusion can lead to a career of panhandling for cider and shouting at traffic. Others are luckier, and find productive outlets for their disgruntlement by becoming spies, revolutionaries or privateers. The sun may have set on the British Empire, but its principles are still kept alive by the chippy also-rans of the unmeritorious elite. Happily, there are two alternatives for those with scruples, the aforementioned Church of England and the BBC, both of which have a long tradition of employing red-blooded subverts to toady to the blue-bloods. 

However snubbed Tippett might have felt, he’d at least done what he thought was right, working with the unemployed, scraping a little living and hardly hiding his communist sympathies Some commentators reckon these held up his compositional growth, but I’m not so sure they weren’t the making of them. I doubt that “A Child of our Time”, which was to become his reputation, would have been what it was if he hadn’t. But, either way, “Child” happened and, not long after, the BBC was commissioning him to write a piece for Prince Charles’ birthday and Tippett complied (if a touch subversively). The piece itself hasn’t done much for his reputation, but, like the Quartet, it was a start.

And so, very tentatively, I suspect this Quartet, written while “Child” sat in a drawer, was a public-facing toe in the water, the testing of a new voice (which may be why he revised his 1st quartet around this time). I have no evidence, but I have a feeling he was proving to himself that he really was free to live, speak and write as he wanted, bar the odd spell behind bars.

I’ve barely listened to this quartet before, so it’s been interesting to pay it attention, though I doubt it would find its way to my Desert Island. As for recordings, I listened to the Heath and Britten Quartets a few times each, before letting myself be distracted by near-contemporaneous works by Ullmann and Bacewicz, and Vaughan Williams and Britten and Walton (possibly the most interesting) and Maconchy, among which Tippet seems to hold his own. The English composers do seem to have something in common, but I find difficult to tell what. Liner notes suggest Purcell, but all that counterpoint makes me wonder if the Royal College of Music, where all except Walton learnt or taught or both, isn’t a likelier suspect. I’ve learnt a few things this week, but one of them is that music in wartime England, despite its intriguing variety, seems to have been a fairly small world.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's nomination goes to *Kjetil Heggelund.*

After that, if no one else steps up we have reached the end of our third round, but before we officially declare that I'd like to give anyone else who might be following the thread to chance to nominate. Clloydster? Kreisler jr? Enthusiast? Would any of you like to make a pick?


----------



## FastkeinBrahms

Just a quick PS on the Tippett no. 2. Just listened to the Amadeus 1950 Rias recording and loved it. They play this with so much feeling, almost passion, in the second movement especially. Apparently, this was quite a staple of theirs, and Tippett, whom they got to know at Morley really loved their playing. I really enjoyed this recommendation, and did not get tired listening to this work.


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## Kreisler jr

I'd be happy to suggest a piece as soon as it is my turn.

Due to unstable internet I just lost a few paragraphs to the Tippett, so I'll just say that I like it very much and am grateful for bringing it to my attention as I had never heard it and knew very little of the composer. It is more convincing for me than the suite-like Villa Lobos (or F. Mendelssohn). The Beethoven connection is maybe closest in the 2nd movement that seems a clear hommage to LvB op.95


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## Enthusiast

Burbage said:


> It's (still, just about) Friday, so I've done [email protected]
> 
> Morley College for Working Men and Women, now eroded by time and reality to plain "Morley College" lies not far from where I type, in what Tippett called "one of the shabbiest districts in London". But I have to confess I've not paid it much attention. Although Tippet is memorialised locally - there is a Tippett College, a Tippett School and a Tippett Foundation, not to mention the Tippett Quartet - its most famous Director of Music remains, bizarrely, Gustav Holst, an indifferent crowd-pleaser who brutishly neglected the string quartet.
> 
> There are some who reckon Tippett, like Simpson, remains stubbornly on the sidelines because they chose an indolent publisher. Perhaps a more plausible reason is their pacifism, which is still frowned upon by an Establishment forever in the grip of a nationalist spasm. Even when the lights of Holst and Vaughan Williams dim, as happens from time to time, their candles are kept burning in the churches and cathedrals of England, as are those of Finzi and Rubbra, but you'll look in vain for Tippett or Simpson in the books of hymns and anthems.
> 
> That was probably inevitable for Tippett. Despite his louche, patrician tones, Tippett was not a natural product of England's fine public (private) schools. I suspect his mother (who declared his imprisonment her proudest moment) wasn't so keen on her lad being sent away. But posh schools confer advantage and are still the 'right thing to do', if you have the money, or can wangle a scholarship, especially for those who move abroad where (as Dvorak hinted a few weeks ago), the ways of raising children are all wrong. There is, however, a big difference between being locked up in an educational facility because your father owns most of a city, and being sent there on a bursary for reasons of convenience. So I'm not surprised that Tippett seems to have had a fairly beastly time.
> 
> For many, early feelings of exclusion can lead to a career of panhandling for cider and shouting at traffic. Others are luckier, and find productive outlets for their disgruntlement by becoming spies, revolutionaries or privateers. The sun may have set on the British Empire, but its principles are still kept alive by the chippy also-rans of the unmeritorious elite. Happily, there are two alternatives for those with scruples, the aforementioned Church of England and the BBC, both of which have a long tradition of employing red-blooded subverts to toady to the blue-bloods.
> 
> However snubbed Tippett might have felt, he'd at least done what he thought was right, working with the unemployed, scraping a little living and hardly hiding his communist sympathies Some commentators reckon these held up his compositional growth, but I'm not so sure they weren't the making of them. I doubt that "A Child of our Time", which was to become his reputation, would have been what it was if he hadn't. But, either way, "Child" happened and, not long after, the BBC was commissioning him to write a piece for Prince Charles' birthday and Tippett complied (if a touch subversively). The piece itself hasn't done much for his reputation, but, like the Quartet, it was a start.
> 
> And so, very tentatively, I suspect this Quartet, written while "Child" sat in a drawer, was a public-facing toe in the water, the testing of a new voice (which may be why he revised his 1st quartet around this time). I have no evidence, but I have a feeling he was proving to himself that he really was free to live, speak and write as he wanted, bar the odd spell behind bars.
> 
> I've barely listened to this quartet before, so it's been interesting to pay it attention, though I doubt it would find its way to my Desert Island. As for recordings, I listened to the Heath and Britten Quartets a few times each, before letting myself be distracted by near-contemporaneous works by Ullmann and Bacewicz, and Vaughan Williams and Britten and Walton (possibly the most interesting) and Maconchy, among which Tippet seems to hold his own. The English composers do seem to have something in common, but I find difficult to tell what. Liner notes suggest Purcell, but all that counterpoint makes me wonder if the Royal College of Music, where all except Walton learnt or taught or both, isn't a likelier suspect. I've learnt a few things this week, but one of them is that music in wartime England, despite its intriguing variety, seems to have been a fairly small world.


Interesting musings. But I am not sure that Tippett is as neglected as you suggest. For quite some time many critics considered that his music went deeper than Britten's more worldly work (a view I disagree with) and he is still, I think, seen as less peripheral (more central) than a composer like Simpson. There are a great many who feel that his music is "more important" than that of Finzi and Rubbra (both composers I enjoy) and I feel that while the place in our esteem that those three occupy is quite stable Tippett's reputation has been waxing and waning and hasn't settled yet.

He was joined in his pacifism by many important thinkers of the time (including Britten) and although they were despised by many (including musicians - Vaughan Williams was very critical of Britten's pacifism) they were hardly alone. I say this as the son of a conscientious objector who was imprisoned for a while and then put to work in farms but who throughout felt part of a movement and found it quite easy to handle himself among the labourers he worked with.

But the reason I am replying is the suggestion that Tippett's reputation rests with his early masterpiece (and success), A Child of Our Time. As a composer he went through probably four periods and each one has its share of masterpieces. He may not currently enjoy the popularity that seemed destined 15 or 20 years ago ... but I suspect his time will come. Quite a few of his works seem necessary parts of their time.

Finally, BTW, I was a bit shocked by your description of Holst as "an indifferent crowd-pleaser who brutishly neglected the string quartet". He may have neglected the sting quartet but he did write some music that was somewhat ahead of his time. Even his big crowd pleaser, The Planets, was written earlier than many suspect (it was composed during WW1) and must have shocked many at the time and his masterpiece Egdon Heath was disliked by many, including his friend Vaughan Williams.


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's nomination goes to *Kjetil Heggelund.*
> 
> After that, if no one else steps up we have reached the end of our third round, but before we officially declare that I'd like to give anyone else who might be following the thread to chance to nominate. Clloydster? Kreisler jr? Enthusiast? Would any of you like to make a pick?


Thanks. There is nothing that comes immediately to mind but it has been a while and I am somewhat out of touch with the thread.


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## Bwv 1080

Tippet is one of those middle of the roadkill composers like Dutilleux or Hindemith that is too modern for the atonophobes but to traditional to be a cutting edge modernist, which is too bad as it’s some great music

Been listening to the 4th QT, which follows the 2nd on the Tippet Qt disc, and liking it quite a bit


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## starthrower

Bwv 1080 said:


> Tippet is one of those middle of the roadkill composers like Dutilleux or Hindemith that is too modern for the atonophobes but to traditional to be a cutting edge modernist, which is too bad as it's some great music


I'm drawn to these so called "middle of the road" composers. I find their music to be an oasis in a desert of bland new consonance rehash, and third and fourth generation hardcore serialist types. Dutilleux is certainly a favorite. And I find much to like among the works of Hindemith. Currently my Tippett CDs are packed away in storage totes but I will dig them out for further listening.

I'm looking forward to Kjetil's choice as soon as he recovers from his Friday night metal hangover.


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## Burbage

Enthusiast said:


> Thanks. There is nothing that comes immediately to mind but it has been a while and I am somewhat out of touch with the thread.


If it's any help, here's what we've covered so far:


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## Enthusiast

^ Oh dear. Tippett's Rose Lake, one of his last works, is about a place in Africa (Senegal, I think) and we didn't cover it!


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## Carmina Banana

After listening to the third quartet and finding it a little more immediately gratifying after the first listen, this is my final thought (for the week, not a lifetime): 
this music works better for me if I zoom out. When I see the forest and not the trees, I get the impact of each movement. I might go as far as to say it is not unlike finding the Affect of a movement of Baroque chamber music. 
This is not to say that movements don't evolve because often they do, but listening to one of his movements with the constant little quirky rhythms and wandering melodies, it is the cumulative effect that delights me more than any particular moment.


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## Burbage

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Oh dear. Tippett's Rose Lake, one of his last works, is about a place in Africa (Senegal, I think) and we didn't cover it!


You're right. I thought, for a moment, that that might have been what the flamingos were about, but it seems not. Which means, perhaps happily, that the Amadeus Quartet missed the opportunity first, and I'm sure we couldn't wish to be in finer company.


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## Iota

I thought I might put in a little word for the Tippett, as I must say I get a lot of enjoyment and interest from it, even though I see this is not a universal feeling. But from the opening jaunty syncopated rhythm, which for me recalls the Concerto for Double String Orchestra (where it expresses elation, but here is more restrained in intent) I feel fully engaged. 
I like the way the first movement seems to drift through ideas in something of a reverie, for example, and the interesting collages of rhythms that crop up in the last movement, and the moments of tenderness/abandon/introversion/musings throughout. It's a piece that seems full of shimmering and intriguing little details without being a piece that calls out to be looked at. 

The recording I know is the Tippett Quartet.


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## Bwv 1080

Burbage said:


> If it's any help, here's what we've covered so far:
> View attachment 155546


Remind me, who was Spain and Argentina?

Also are we going on borders at the time, we got the whole former Russian empire covered


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## Burbage

Spain: Arriaga, Gerhard
Argentina: Ginastera

I did, for a millisecond, wonder if I shouldn't spend a while researching how the borders moved about, and the professed or imposed nationalities (where available) of the composers, but however long life might feel at the moment, it felt too short for that.


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## Bwv 1080

Burbage said:


> Spain: Arriaga, Gerhard
> Argentina: Ginastera
> 
> I did, for a millisecond, wonder if I shouldn't spend a while researching how the borders moved about, and the professed or imposed nationalities (where available) of the composers, but however long life might feel at the moment, it felt too short for that.


Ok, too bad I was awol those weeks


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## Burbage

Enthusiast said:


> Finally, BTW, I was a bit shocked by your description of Holst as "an indifferent crowd-pleaser who brutishly neglected the string quartet".


I can only apologise for my intemperate language. Though it was Holst himself who confessed that "my idea of composition is to spoil as much MS paper as possible" and that he "had a lovely time" when "pretending to be a star conductor". It is also true that he didn't write any string quartets, meaning that none of his work merits consideration in this thread, and if that's not an own-goal, I don't know what is.

More seriously, I'm not sure Tippett's really noticed beyond anniversaries and as an also-ran in anthology-concerts of British rarities. I guess that happens to all of them (the celebrated Bliss, for example), but it seems those composers who wrote church music seem to get more airtime, and I have a feeling it was the church, as much as anything, that took a dim view of pacifism. Though, again, that might be a weird perspective of my own - my ancestors were all church and army and often both, and weren't afraid to say what they thought of shirkers. I know this, having been, like Tippett, consigned to a school above my station, at which I spurned the cadets in favour of gardening, and though that wasn't the same as imprisonment or forced labour, it felt like the nearest that money could buy.

Which is why I chose to tug at that thread and see if it went anywhere. It's not, perhaps, the most rigorous form of research (I've also been counting BachTrack reviews, though I'm not sure I'm any the wiser) but it's been an interesting exploration. So thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope that you're right and Tippett does get performed more often in future. And I promise I'll try to be nice about Holst.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Bwv 1080 said:


> Tippet is one of those middle of the roadkill composers like Dutilleux or Hindemith that is too modern for the atonophobes but to traditional to be a cutting edge modernist, which is too bad as it's some great music
> 
> Been listening to the 4th QT, which follows the 2nd on the Tippet Qt disc, and liking it quite a bit


I did exactly the same and found the 4th very engaging. I think the Tippett Quartet do a much better job on the 4th than on the 2nd. I am not too convinced about their performance of the latter. The 2nd movement is eerie but just too detached, and the final movement is anything but "appassionato". They are not really telling a story despite their immaculate playing. However, they seem really at home with the 4th.


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## Bwv 1080

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I did exactly the same and found the 4th very engaging. I think the Tippett Quartet do a much better job on the 4th than on the 2nd. I am not too convinced about their performance of the latter. The 2nd movement is eerie but just too detached, and the final movement is anything but "appassionato". They are not really telling a story despite their immaculate playing. However, they seem really at home with the 4th.


I liked their rendition of the 2nd, as I see the piece (rightly or wrongly) in the same vein as Stravinsky's neoclassical works which need a certain amount of detachment and rhythmic precision


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## FastkeinBrahms

This goes to show that this is good music. Very different interpretations yield results that manage to convince listeners.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's nomination goes to *Kjetil Heggelund.*
> 
> After that, if no one else steps up we have reached the end of our third round, but before we officially declare that I'd like to give anyone else who might be following the thread to chance to nominate. Clloydster? Kreisler jr? Enthusiast? Would any of you like to make a pick?


I'm sorry to have missed out on Tippett. Seems I didn't listen to my usual amount of music, only easy stuff in the car like Dua Lipa and Mayhem...:devil: 
I would like to present a composer, not featured on the list, but I wonder if you people want romantic or modern music...I have 2 Russians in mind.


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## Bwv 1080

Just pick whichever you like


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Then I would like to go for Sofia Gubaidulina quartet no. 1. For me, it's a very evocative piece, but I haven't heard it so many times. The alternative was Sergei Taneyev no. 6, but I prefer his quintets...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Nice! A contemporary composer that I connect with, but I have not heard any of the quartets. Seems this set is the one to go with based on what I've seen around here:


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## Bwv 1080

Cool, have not spent any time getting to know her music, looking forward to it


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Great! It's a bit new for me too, but I've spent countless hours with Gubaidulina, just not string quartets. I never grow tired of any of her music


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## Bwv 1080

Going w Molinari - the Stamic recording is not on IDAGIO


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Then I would like to go for Sofia Gubaidulina quartet no. 1. For me, it's a very evocative piece, but I haven't heard it so many times. The alternative was Sergei Taneyev no. 6, but I prefer his quintets...


Interesting choice. I know Henry will be pleased as he loves Gubaidulina's stuff. It will be an education for me as I'm largely ignorant of her output. Nice one.

Am I right in saying that there's only Molinari, Danish and Stamic recordings to go at?


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## annaw

Merl said:


> Interesting choice. I know Henry will be pleased as he loves Gubaidulina's stuff. It will be an education for me as I'm largely ignorant of her output. Nice one.
> 
> *Am I right in saying that there's only Molinari, Danish and Stamic recordings to go at?*


At least I couldn't find any others.

I'm interested to hear the work! Haven't heard any of her compositions before .


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## Bwv 1080

Kronos has recorded some of her work, dont know about the first qt


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Merl said:


> Interesting choice. I know Henry will be pleased as he loves Gubaidulina's stuff. It will be an education for me as I'm largely ignorant of her output. Nice one.
> 
> Am I right in saying that there's only Molinari, Danish and Stamic recordings to go at?


I only found those 3 too...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I found one more on youtube. There was also one on BBC, but unavailable to me.


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## SearsPoncho

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I found one more on youtube. There was also one on BBC, but unavailable to me.


I pushed play and listened to the first 10 minutes away from my computer. Then I decided to take a look. Surprise, surprise, surprise! The guy at 19:36 doesn't seem to be buying any of it.

There were a few moments that sounded like Lutoslawski, one of my favorite composers from the last third of the 20th century, which makes me wonder if there's an aleatory component to the music. Silence and the anticipation of what will come after the silence also seem to play a role, and so does texture and exploration of intervals for the sake of exploration. This is new stuff for me, and I'm probably wrong on all counts, but kudos to Kjetil Heggelund for introducing this adventurous music.


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## StevehamNY

I'm almost ashamed to admit how little I know of Gubaidulina's music, this coming from the guy who nominated the Tchaikovsky when it was my turn (and wait until you hear what I plan for next time). I don't own any of her quartets, but that will soon change, because I'm already listening to the first quartet and enjoying it. (Thank you, KH!)

I'll look forward to Burbage's Friday historical post, but a quick lookup tells me that she studied at the Kazan Conservatory in the early 1950's. Stalin was still around for most of that time, so I don't have to tell you how dangerous it was to have any involvement with Western contemporary music. I'm reading that they literally raided the dormitory on a regular basic, looking for banned musical scores among the students. And as you can imagine, the stakes probably weren't a trip to the Dean's office for a stern talking to. More like an arrest in the middle of the night and a trip to the gulag (if you were lucky). But even in this environment, Gubaidulina is quoted as saying, "We knew Ives, Cage, we actually knew everything on the sly."

So to sum it up, she was a total badass! And just knowing that always adds a little more to the music for me.


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## Bwv 1080

StevehamNY said:


> So to sum it up, she was a total badass! And just knowing that always adds a little more to the music for me.


Half Russian half Mongol, would say so


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## Allegro Con Brio

This made for a splendid "challenge listen" for me, as I term my relatively frequent forays into contemporary music. I like to view it this way so I see it as an effort to expand my horizons and encounter exciting new idioms - and that's certainly what this music has done. Indeed, as SP says, there are many similarities to the Lutoslawski quartet (which isn't up my alley though I like a lot of his other music) in that it seems to patiently generate all of its material from those initial sustained monotones as if from an expanding prism of light. Like much contemporary music, the process is deconstructionist in the sense that the emphasis is not necessarily on the melodies, textures, harmonies capable of being produced by the four instruments in concert but the array of sounds that they can be individually splintered into; quite rarely do they all play together. The biggest barrier to my fully appreciating it is a sense of abruptness and choppiness that generates some memorable moments but a lot of dead space and repetitive sections in which my interest fades, rather than, say, the luxurious unbroken Wagnerianism of Berg's Lyric Suite or the shifting dreamscapes of Dutilleux and Takemitsu. And I can't say I'm a fan of the aleatoric and "performance art" elements (as seen in the video above), which always have the effect of gimmicks to me. I'll be listening to her other three quartets throughout the week. But if you're not a fan of this, I'd recommend Gubaidulina's violin concerti Offertorium and In Tempus Praesens, which I find much more accessible; they are filled with a mesmeric passion that sounds more distinctive rather than the "generalized serialism" that I hear in this quartet.

I'm not sure if it's worth discussing Gubaidulina's lofty artistic philosophy and if/how it may be heard in this quartet, but here's what AllMusic has to say about it:



> Her music is unabashedly re-ligious: it finds and binds the fissures which mark human solitude, with a brazen honesty rare in music even today. As she described herself, "I am a religious person... and by 'religion' I mean re-ligio, the re-tying of a bond... restoring the legato of life. Life divides man into many pieces. There is no weightier occupation than the recomposition of spiritual integrity through the composition of music."
> 
> In many ways, the cross is the most potent symbol in Gubaidulina's work; it is the consummate node of intersection, the site of re-tying both as a mark of salvation and the greatest suffering. So many of her works contain cross imagery, often through elaborate, predestined meeting-and-diverging points for distinct-sounding bodies or musical concepts...What is perhaps most astonishing about Gubaidulina's music is how, amidst such formally rigorous edifices (the cross, the mass-sequence, the Fibonacci sequence), a voice of such supple, passionate directness arises. Gubaidulina's work, even while unfolding an apocalyptic itinerary, often sounds breathed out in the moment, systolic and organic; filaments or melody float, buffet, and fall, even as a musical cataclysm ferments. This tight religious knot of opposites may well account for Gubaidulina's success in the West in the late 20th and early 21st centuries.


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## SearsPoncho

That video reminded me of one more thing:

"Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance."


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## starthrower

I'm glad to see a Gubaidulina quartet chosen for this week. I'm a proud owner of the Stamic Quartet CD and it was one of recordings I had in mind for this thread. Anyway, as I was listening to No.1 again I couldn't help thinking I need to watch a live performance to enjoy all of the string techniques employed in this quartet. Unfortunately the camera work on the Armida Quartett with its close ups of the individual players and constant shifting is not what I hoped to see. I want to see the full quartet in the picture and how it all works together. This production is a bit too chaotic and distracting making me prefer the CD recording again.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> That video reminded me of one more thing:
> 
> "Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance."


Like I could resist posting this now...


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## Clloydster

I'll have to admit these last couple have done nothing for me - I'm going back and listening to others on the list that you have already done. I'm primarily into the 18th and 19th century stuff.


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## Malx

I have some of Gubaidulina's works in the collection - Violin Concertos which I enjoy, but the string quartets are new to me.
I will listen later in the week when my concentration levels will hopefully be better. I had my second jab on Saturday and as with the first I have been very lethergic since and detailed listening is currently beyond me.


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## Enthusiast

StevehamNY said:


> I'm almost ashamed to admit how little I know of Gubaidulina's music, this coming from the guy who nominated the Tchaikovsky when it was my turn (and wait until you hear what I plan for next time). I don't own any of her quartets, but that will soon change, because I'm already listening to the first quartet and enjoying it. (Thank you, KH!)
> 
> I'll look forward to Burbage's Friday historical post, but a quick lookup tells me that she studied at the Kazan Conservatory in the early 1950's. Stalin was still around for most of that time, so I don't have to tell you how dangerous it was to have any involvement with Western contemporary music. I'm reading that they literally raided the dormitory on a regular basic, looking for banned musical scores among the students. And as you can imagine, the stakes probably weren't a trip to the Dean's office for a stern talking to. More like an arrest in the middle of the night and a trip to the gulag (if you were lucky). But even in this environment, Gubaidulina is quoted as saying, "We knew Ives, Cage, we actually knew everything on the sly."
> 
> So to sum it up, she was a total badass! And just knowing that always adds a little more to the music for me.


Badass maybe. She is a deeply religious composer. I think I know quite a lot of her music including the 2nd and 3rd quartets .. but not the 1st quartet so I will look forward to that.

BTW I think musicians did a little better than writers or artists under Stalin.


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## ELbowe

Article from 2013
The Guardian: 
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/31/sofia-gubaidulina-unchained-melodies


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## StevehamNY

Enthusiast said:


> BTW I think musicians did a little better than writers or artists under Stalin.


No arguing that writers had the worst time of it. The quote I found says: "Estimates suggest that some 2000 literary figures were repressed, of whom about 1500 met their deaths in prison or camp." Because the infamous Zhdanov decree demanded that "all art was to depict reality in its revolutionary development," it wasn't even good enough to remain neutral or apolitical on the matter. For a writer, that left little room to hide.

Having said that, we still know how heavy the scarlet letter of "formalism" hung over the heads of Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Khachaturian, and others. Breaking away from the quartets for just a second, one of my favorite piano recordings is the 24 Preludes and Fugues by Vsevolod Zaderatsky, highly recommended if you haven't heard them. Written before Shostakovich's work, Zaderatsky had a slightly more challenging time of it, scribbling on the backs of telegraph paper in subzero temperatures at the Kolyma prison camp between 1937 and 1939. If you're a composer (and I'm certainly not) just imagine writing these preludes and fugues for the piano on blank paper while freezing and starving... and oh yeah, obviously not having a piano to play them on!

(They finally had their first public performance in 2014, and this recording came out three years later.)









EDIT: Sorry, had to get up at 4:00 am to take my daughter to the airport today! This partially explains me:

- Recommending a piano recording on a string quartet board
- Mixing my metaphors (you wear scarlet letters, they don't hang over your head)


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Interesting choice. I know Henry will be pleased as he loves Gubaidulina's stuff. It will be an education for me as I'm largely ignorant of her output. Nice one.
> 
> Am I right in saying that there's only Molinari, Danish and Stamic recordings to go at?


I agree, an interesting choice of composer and a great quartet to focus on.

I only have the Molinari set, but I have heard the Stamic via streaming. I have a preference for the former, but that might be due to familiarity. With more extensive listening throughout the week, I may change my opinion.


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## Merl

I played through the quartet this morning but it didn't do much for me so I'll give it another crack tomorrow. I wasn't in the mood before, tbh (reports to write and a speaker stand to make).


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## Bwv 1080

Enthusiast said:


> BTW I think musicians did a little better than writers or artists under Stalin.


And communists fared even worse than writers


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## Bwv 1080

will listen to the piece again tonight, but found it effective. The building from single notes into longer expanded gestures reminded me of Lutoslawski at times. The harmonics and glissandi (and glissandi harmonics!) gave a nice atmosphere. Curious to see how she notated this, guessing it is more controlled improv like Lutoslawski?


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## Merl

I've actually had the opportunity to play the Gubaidulina quartet again tonight and unfortunately it's just not my bag so I'll pass on this one but I did find it slightly more interesting on a 2nd attempt and it's certainly an interesting pick.

Incidentally, as you know, I've been revisiting the quartets I missed at the start of this thread and I've completed another marathon listen. Below is a link to my currently preferred recordings of *Britten's 3rd Quartet* after a month or so of heavy rotation. Hope you find something you like in the review.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3470-britten-string-quartet-3-a.html


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## Burbage

Bwv 1080 said:


> will listen to the piece again tonight, but found it effective. The building from single notes into longer expanded gestures reminded me of Lutoslawski at times. The harmonics and glissandi (and glissandi harmonics!) gave a nice atmosphere. Curious to see how she notated this, guessing it is more controlled improv like Lutoslawski?


I've only seen a few excerpts, but it appears* to be mostly conventionally notated, albeit with some indeterminate sections created by the use of intederminate rests (some pitches in glissandi, tremolos are left to the performers, too). Most of the "expansive gestures" seem to be the result of time signatures and note values. But there are some stage directions, too:

_"At this moment, each performer uses the given pause to take his or her chair and place it, lightly and as imperceptibly as possible to the audience, in the direction of the corners of the stage. At the end (by step 5), the players are in the different corners of the stage."_​
How obvious and effective that is in all the different recordings, I don't know, but it might be worth bearing in mind if you're planning to listen to this while, say, installing a new speaker stand.

*_As far as I can understand from Cara Stroud's thesis: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc149671/_


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## FastkeinBrahms

This needs some getting used to. I really like her violin concerto, which someone rightly pointed out to be one of her more accessible works. The Stamitz recording produces some great sounds but I am not sure whether great soundscapes are sufficient to hold my attention. I need some thematic development or melodies or at least some sort of a programme. Shulamit Ran, who also was not exactly light fare, had actually a bit of all three. There is no doubt in my mind that Gubaidulina is a major composer and that she was heroic defying Soviet censorship in such a radical manner. I suppose she wrote this before she left for West Germany?


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## SearsPoncho

Is this supposed to be accompanied by "dance," or was that just artistic license taken by the performers in the video on the previous page? 

Interesting that I'm not the only one who was reminded of Lutoslawski, although I find his music, including his string quartet, more compelling.

EDIT: I guess that video was posted 2 pages ago.


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## starthrower

SearsPoncho said:


> Is this supposed to be accompanied by "dance," or was that just artistic license taken by the performers in the video on the previous page?


The liners in the Supraphon CD discussing the quartets mention nothing about dance concerning the first quartet. I pretty much disliked that video production and camera work. It did nothing to enhance the music or performance. Just let me see all four string players in one frame so I can see how the different parts work together.


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## Enthusiast

I've tracked down a couple of recordings of the Gubaidulina - the Danish Quartet and the Stamic. As an early work I was expecting something a bit more conservative but it is quite recognisably Gubaidulina. It may perhaps be less coherent than many of her later works - there may be too many little ideas in the work? - and perhaps lacks the slow build up to a climax at the end that many of her later works of this length have. But as a contemplation - of what? - it is attractive music. But that is my first hearing so let's wait to see how it grows on me.

I found the Guardian article that ELbowe links to (#3052) helpful in understanding how Gubaidulina survived Soviet censorship and penalties - she didn't need her music to be performed - and found it made more sense of the famous Shostakovich quote (that she should continue on her "incorrect path").


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## HenryPenfold

I've avoided the videos of this quartet as they tend to do more harm than good - e.g. introducing spurious extra-musical ideas or not letting us see what the musicians are doing with their instruments (a crucial element of any music video, especially in a work like this that requires non-routine techniques).

I particularly like this quartet as SG wrote it with little or no spiritual or descriptive contexts, and is pretty much abstract music. I will say however that the piece does allow for some inferences of 'loneliness' should the listener desire (after all, so much of the nature of a particular piece music is dependent on how we want to engage with it).

I have abandoned listening to other groups and have stuck with Quatuor Molinari on account of the fact that the music demands so much focus and attention that other considerations, such as different performances, just complicates things. And the Molinari do have a very precise and clear feel about their performance that really suites the music, in my opinion. The sound quality of the recording is, I'd say, in demonstration bracket.

At 22 minutes, I find it the perfect length for sustained focused listening and I am surprised that the time passes very quickly. I suspect the clear sections, or blocks along with the prescribed pauses actually add to the fleetness of the work (an odd word to use in relation to such a slow-moving work).

Being limited to a stereo listen via 2 speakers, I can get absolutely no sense of the four musicians moving away from each other, towards the four corners of the stage, as SG directs. I do however concede that this must be a very interesting aspect of a live performance, and in no way gratuitous as can be the case with some avant grade works, particularly of this vintage.

I would like to thank *Kjetil Heggelund *for choosing this composition and would urge others who may have given up on it, to perhaps dip a toe back in.


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## Carmina Banana

I have surprising take on this video of the Armida Quartet and Manaho Shimokwa (surprising to me as well). I loved it!
Hearing it for the first time while watching the musicians and dancer in this intimate setting (I much prefer smaller venues for chamber music) was mesmerizing. I was on the edge of my seat. 
I suppose you could say there are at least 6 artists involved—the quartet, the dancer and the videographer. The camera angles and composition of each shot is a part of this whole artistic experience. The dancer, with her long loose black hair is reminiscent of The Ring. This time she is invading a chamber music recital instead of emerging from a TV. The musicians moving on stage during the performance make this something of a theatrical event to begin with. This video takes that further. 
I have listened to the Molinari Quartet which is very good and a beautiful recording, but I still find this video to be the most enjoyable way to experience it. If it is a gimmick, I have fallen for it.
I am also skimming through the thesis on Expansion Processes in this work. It seems well researched and thorough, but is not really doing a lot for my appreciation of the work. I know the composer has described this as a work about the inability of humans to be together (maybe in contrast to our ultimate togetherness with God?), but when I heard this the first time, I was struck by a sense of sheer exploration of sound. It had the quality of a profound improvisation. The ideas of sound seem associated with emotion—the glissandi seem questioning and confused, the harmonics elated and mysterious. A lot of this could be influenced by the video. 
The element of dance in this video provokes interesting reactions. I noticed a couple youtube comments that seemed outraged—“why is there a dancer here? It doesn’t need it.” I’m not anything ever truly “needs” dance. I think context is important. If this were a dance series, for instance, with special guests, the Armida Quartet, I don’t think people would say, “why is there a dancer here?” Actually, I love the idea of a straight chamber music recital in which a dancer just shows and “dancebombs” the event. 

Henry, 
I fully understand your frustration in not being able to just see the performers in the video. I often feel the same way. It usually infuriates me. One informative visual, however, was the cello solo. So interesting that everybody stops and watches the cellist negotiate these difficult double stops when it would be so much easier to write it as a duet for cello and viola.


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## HenryPenfold

Carmina Banana said:


> Henry,
> I fully understand your frustration in not being able to just see the performers in the video. I often feel the same way. It usually infuriates me. One informative visual, however, was the cello solo. So interesting that everybody stops and watches the cellist negotiate these difficult double stops when it would be so much easier to write it as a duet for cello and viola.


With me, on such matters, Eusebius obscures Florestan and Master Raro is on sabbatical!


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## annaw

Finally got to listen to Gubaidulina's quartet. It's undoubtedly an interesting work and I think it's even more fascinating to me if combined with its historical background. It's quite impressive she managed to compose a work like that while being in the Soviet Union and censored by Zhdanovism. I can recall Shostakovich getting himself into quite a trouble by using just a bit too many references to Western dance tunes in one of his ballets, and another artist being sent to a gulag because of a similar “violation”. But this quartet is almost an extreme opposite of every element I've come to connect with Soviet Realism and its quality of being "simple". I cannot imagine how she managed to hide her compositions and scores (while being a professional composer), but she evidently found a way to do that - I recall hearing a story how one Estonian university library kept Orwell's "Animal Farm" in the agriculture section of the library during the Soviet era . It only further proves that a lot of actual art in the Soviet Union was produced underground, and the average people were allowed to only see one censored type of art, making the whole idea of "art being free for proletariat" quite a hypocrisy in my opinion. The Guardian article was also very interesting and enlightening to read!

When I think about the work itself, I have to agree with what Enthusiast wrote before - I also noticed a certain scattered quality of this quartet. At times it almost feels as if it consisted of many smaller independent ideas, which don't necessarily form a cohesive entity. I liked the parts where the quartet had a flowing line of melody accompanying other instruments; it managed to unite many of those smaller musical ideas together. I also liked the more aggressive pizzicato sections. However, I'm not a huge fan of the frequent pauses that many modern and contemporary quartets utilise - I think they oftentimes kill the musical drive and contribute to the lack of overall unity of the work. But then that's just my personal opinion and preference.

Anyway, it was a very interesting listen and a fascinating combination of the 20th century avant-gardism and, occasionally, an almost Shostakovichian melodic line!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think the purpose of the frequent silences in this quartet and, as annaw points out, in many other contemporary works, is to incorporate sound and its absence in equal proportion. This sort of started with Webern’s pointillistic use of sonic space, and it shows up a lot in Gubaidulina and Lutoslawski especially, forcing the listener to pay attention to the strategic use of the “dead space” intervals and how the material develops within that frame. Debussy’s maxim that “music is the space between the notes” is treated very seriously. It’s the polar opposite of such as Carter, where the breathless onslaught of notes creates a shattering prism of colors; a stream of light hitting a glass. Here, there are significant gaps in between the blocks of material, creating a patiently unfolded, disjointed sea of ideas. It’s a very subjective experience in that the listener must decide for themself whether the assortment of deconstructionist gestures forms a coherent whole. At least, that’s my interpretation of it.


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## starthrower

Gubaidulina's music strange or weird as it may be always feels grounded to me. Whereas the music of a composer like Saariaho sounds like it's from another world. They both make good use of space but I feel like Gubaidulina is giving the listener pause while Saariaho sends me to a realm of cold dead space. But I don't mean that in a negative sense. Either way the music commands my attention.


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## annaw

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think the purpose of the frequent silences in this quartet and, as annaw points out, in many other contemporary works, is to incorporate sound and its absence in equal proportion. This sort of started with Webern's pointillistic use of sonic space, and it shows up a lot in Gubaidulina and Lutoslawski especially, forcing the listener to pay attention to the strategic use of the "dead space" intervals and how the material develops within that frame. Debussy's maxim that "music is the space between the notes" is treated very seriously. It's the polar opposite of such as Carter, where the breathless onslaught of notes creates a shattering prism of colors; a stream of light hitting a glass. Here, there are significant gaps in between the blocks of material, creating a patiently unfolded, disjointed sea of ideas. It's a very subjective experience in that the listener must decide for themself whether the assortment of deconstructionist gestures forms a coherent whole. At least, that's my interpretation of it.


Very insightful post, ACB! I find this perspective very interesting, and I don't think I have thought of it that way. I actually think that such use of silence is a lot more effective in real life performances - I remember hearing Pärt's _Tabula Rasa_ in a church setting once; probably no sound would have been more captivating and entrancing than the last four bars of silence in the end of Silentium. It really has a very powerful effect when one realises that the whole audience is forced to be conscious of silence. To me, the experience with such work is very different when I listen to it at home. Górecki also uses sudden breaks very interestingly in the second movement of his second quartet, but in his case, he doesn't break the previous melodic development. But then his style also seems to be a lot more "breathless" than Gubaidulina's.

I feel I should go and listen to Debussy while keeping in mind his maxim. I find it very interesting that he was the one to propose it, because when listening to works like _Pelleas et Melisande_, I've always seen him more as a French successor of Wagner's never-ending melody. It's very interesting that Debussy's ideas, when brought to their extremity, would produce an almost opposite effect to what I would have assumed.

However, I think I am also just not that used to many contemporary techniques, which probably needs to be remedied.


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## Burbage

It's Friday, so I've done this. 

In 1971, I was six years old. I have had to calculate that, as my memories are obscured behind the blue, reticulated haze imposed by the ham-fisted extortionists at Boots the Chemist, who’d carelessly empty my mother’s camera every two dozen shots and vaguely immortalise me, in my orange dungarees, and my small and hapless brother, who stared in pudgy bewilderment from a finger-slicing death-trap of a push-chair that would, by today’s standards, have led to the arrest of its maker.

Sofia Gubaidulina, on the other hand, had just turned forty, which is, bar the looming shade of the schoolyard walls, almost as grim as turning six, and was having a lonelier, if more productive and less humiliating, time of it. She’d been, I gather ‘abroad’, and was now, for reasons which seem unclear, beginning to spend an autumn and winter in the resort of Sortaleva, in the Karelian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic.

The map puts Sortavela just across the lake from St Petersburg, The lake, however, is some 200km long, so I doubt it was bustling with culture, or anything else, at the time. Gubaidulina is on record as saying that she felt very much on her own, and I think I can understand that. A little walk around the town, courtesy of Google’s StreetView, finds a compact, tidy, neatly-painted place, with three- and four-storey buildings, a grand official-looking hall and several prosperous shops. It is a far cry from some other towns in the neighbourhood, mere utilitarian gatherings of concrete blocks at unmade crossroads, and looks like a genteel suburb of Petrozavodsk, the Republic’s capital, should Petrozavodsk run to genteel suburbs. I have never visited Sortavela, but I once spent part of a February in Bournemouth, so have an inkling. Three long, dark and frosty nights and three short, drab, wind-blasted days, with no human company save a taciturn waiter, were more than enough for me. Gubaidulina was made of sterner stuff, at least to the point of spending time in the lake which, according to the charts, won’t have been warm. But still, “life itself in those years was so dark, so sad and hopeless”, as she said, and we must all grab our fun where we can.

Though it can’t have been that hopeless. Stalin was dead, nobody else had tried to kill her recently and her career, as a freelance composer, seemed to be happening. She had written a good lot of music for documentaries and animations, and a few purely artistic endeavours, such as her piano sonata, seem to have attracted some interest. Little, if any, had been played abroad, but that just meant she hadn’t been banned or blacklisted yet. Worse things could happen, and they would. But not yet.

She started work on this quartet as intentionally “incorrect” music, music she wrote for herself, in which she quietly explored the ideas of Bach and Webern and her religion, apparently, and, like every modernist, extended her palette, stretching the practicalities, even the definition, of music. Perhaps happily, she was doing that in a time and place where it wasn’t yet a cliche, though Shostakovich had only the year before written his first fiddle-tapping quartet,and it wouldn’t be very long before quartet composers would reach for the mallets, though Gubaidalina would bravely resist that temptation for another 22 years. And it does contain ‘indeterminate’ elements, which the performer is expected to judge for themselves, which was still a teensy bit radical.

Personally, I’m not too sure about that. To my mind, it’s like a novelist leaving a blank page here and there for the reader to complete. I’m sure that’s a perfectly valid literary technique, and may well have been tried in the ‘70s, but it’s not a notable feature of anything that anyone still reads, so its flaws may be as real as they are obvious. But music isn’t literature and, for the listener, it makes little difference; even silence is golden, we’re reassured. Besides, every quartet is a conspiracy of sorts, in which even the audience plays a part, and however much they might try, writers can never hide themselves for long. In our heart of hearts we all know that, faced with a drowning fly in their soup, Dickens would have burst into tears, Dan Brown would have demanded a refund, and C.S.Lewis would have launched an hour-long metaphor.

Gubaidulina’s first quartet is not a heap of fun, though it might be a leap of faith. And it certainly is a metaphor. In an interview, she described it exactly so; a “metaphor for the impossiblity of togetherness…, for the utter deafness of humanity” and this quartet delivers that, certainly. There’s a keening energy to it, a remote and mournful coherence, yet each player is very much apart, and grows more so as the piece progresses, forced to describe a physical cross. But, though Gubaidulina acknowledges Bach as in influence, I keep thinking of Haydn, and so, as well as listening alongside works from a similar time, I’ve been listening to the op 17/5, another experimental work full of dissolutions and detachments that ends in abrupt nowhere.

I’ve listened to the Molinari and Armida versions, and don’t disagree with either of them. I find it a strangely profound, meditative piece, with echoes of the cloister. And though it dissolves into “utter isolation to the point of madness” towards the end, there’s enough of that left just to hold it together, and I guess that aspect of the metaphor must strike a chord with every quartet player, if not every emotional-support dancer. I’m not sure I care enough for the piece musically to boost the Molinari’s royalties, but I’d happily pay money to hear it played live.


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## Merl

It seems you and I are the same age, Burbage. Thanks for the review, old timer!


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## StevehamNY

Burbage said:


> I've listened to the Molinari and Armida versions, and don't disagree with either of them. I find it a strangely profound, meditative piece, with echoes of the cloister. And though it dissolves into "utter isolation to the point of madness" towards the end, there's enough of that left just to hold it together, and I guess that aspect of the metaphor must strike a chord with every quartet player, if not every emotional-support dancer. I'm not sure I care enough for the piece musically to boost the Molinari's royalties, but I'd happily pay money to hear it played live.


Burbage, a marvelous (and insightful) post, and I especially loved "emotional-support dancer." That seems to be exactly what the audience is given for this piece. The only thing missing is the red vest:









With a small sample size of decent covers, there's not much to comment on this week, but I do want to confess to my own idiocy when I first saw the Molinari cover and assumed the image was some kind of Japanese lettering:









In reality, this is an untitled ink-on-paper drawing by Guido Molinari, from 1957. Molinari was a Canadian avant-garde artist, and naturally this Canadian quartet in question happens to be named after him. So it really is a great cover (very much draws the eye, too), and yes, I continue to learn something new here every day here, both musically and artistically.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I was most taken by the Bournemouth/Sortaleva analogy.


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## SearsPoncho

It's Friday, a holiday weekend in the U.S., and I'm off! Yeah, I almost want to sing a Rebecca Black song ("It's Friday, Friday...") but I don't want to be permanently banned.

Steve: The Molinari cover looks like a Rorschach Test.

As for the quartet, I've been doing quite a bit of reading on it, including this Master's Thesis: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1002.4463&rep=rep1&type=pdf.

This is my question, *which I have not answered or taken a side on*: If one has to read all this material to "understand" a piece of music which essentially sounds the same after ingesting so many extra-musical references and analyses, can it really be considered good abstract music? I ask this because I first thought that, well, maybe it's necessary because this is very complicated music, written in a modern idiom that requires explanation; however, I listen to Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Bartok string quartets, Messiaen, Nono, etc., and I enjoy much of that music despite having no extra-musical associations or explanations attached to those examples. Ah, but it's not abstract music...or is it? Isn't the "music" part of music, whether it be pure abstract music, programme music, opera, ballet (I have no idea what happens in the Firebird, Petrouchka, or Rite of Spring - I just love the music), lieder, etc., still "abstract music." I listened to Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony for years before I was even made aware of the programme, although it's interesting that I used to think of many of Beethoven's programmatic descriptions before I "discovered" them; in other words, I fully enjoyed Beethoven's Pastoral before having any knowledge of the programme. I could say the same thing for many other pieces of music, as well as my initial forays into Shostakovich, a composer I knew little or nothing about for years, although I still found his music powerful and compelling during my period of ignorance.

I want to make it clear that *this is not a negative take* on this piece, or any other, which relies on extra-musical knowledge before one can truly come to grips with it; I just wanted to get your thoughts on these issues. Art is art, and if a piece of music relies on dancers, visuals, programs, historical, political or philosophical references, etc., so be it. It's still a work of art worthy of attention...if it's any good. Aye, there's the rub.


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## starthrower

I gave the Stamic Quartet another listen and I definitely heard a lot more in the piece than I did the other day. The intro has an exotic sound which reminded me of Takemitsu. And there are the Xenakis like glissando lines. The first section with the rests has a rather serious tone but then the mood lightens up and it feels like a dance, or even a playful conversation. But this seems to peter out after a while and things return to more somber like mood. I don't worry about what it all means, if anything. It's just music that I find quite appealing and beautifully constructed. When I see photos or video of Ms. Gubaidulina, she strikes me as such a humble and simple woman. But when you listen to her music there is no doubt she is a brilliant person with an incredible mind.


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## Malx

I finally got around to listening to Gubaidulina's first quartet I tried the Molinari quartet with thanks to Qobuz. I got the impression from a couple of earlier posts that suggested there is a lot of background info' worth digesting relevant to the piece - as is my usual policy I didn't seek that information out, I dived in blind (or should that be deaf).
Now, I have neither the wit nor knowledge to begin to describe what structurally is going on in the work but after a couple of run throughs I have to say I really enjoy the sounds and feelings that are generated by the way the instruments are working with and around each other.
To some degree this piece reminds me of her violin & viola concertos in that they seem to be tuneful but not in an obvious way - I better quit before I say something totally stupid.
Conclusion: I liked it but can't really say why - sometimes ignorance is bliss!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Weekly reminder: Next week's choice will go to *Kreisler jr.*


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## Bwv 1080

Malx said:


> I liked it but can't really say why - sometimes ignorance is bliss!


'It sounds good' is a perfectly legit answer


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## Enthusiast

Now I have spent more time with the Stamic recording of the Gubaidulina I am clear that I prefer it greatly over the other account I have been listening to, the Danish Quartet.

The Danish recording leaves me a little "confused" and I think their account comes over as rather generic avant garde. There are many good moments but it doesn't hang together so well, although I am not sure they wanted it to.

By contrast, the Stamic Quartet are deeply inside the Gubaidulina idiom. That was the first thing that struck me about their recording. Their account is still of a rather uncomfortable work and is filled with tension without being as spiky as the Danish recording. What make a difference is that somehow the music makes perfect sense (don't ask me what that sense is but I feel a logic and a coherence) with the Stamic and they communicate so much more. Almost every phrase, perhaps every note, seems to communicate something ... something that is very recognisable as Gubaidulina. Add to all that the beautiful opening - viola sounding almost as a human voice - which makes perfect sense of that first slide (after about a minute) rather than making it sound rather alien (as the Danish do). Again and again through this recording I got an uncanny feeling that the instruments were human voices in a way I don't think I have experienced with quartets before. From the start I was hooked and drawn into the piece, which proceeds step by step in a convincing argument. Don't ask me what it is arguing but phrase after phrase seems almost to talk (or sing) words and to follow from what was "said" before. It no longer sounds too full of ideas - but it _is _filled with incident. It is not a comfortable work but with the Stamic it is deeply ... musical. Wonderful!

Apparently the players slowly move away from each other during the piece until they are each on their own. This is not an early premonition of social distancing but a theatrical aspect that underlines the work's apparent subject - loneliness. It is a very compact work (at least it is in the Stamic account) and when it ends - the closing pages are rather bleak - I felt that I had listened to a more substantial work than I would expect from one that lasts a little more than 20 minutes.

I am tempted to search out some other recordings to see how they compare but probably not while the work is a live one in this thread. I am really grateful, meanwhile, to have been introduced to it.


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## StevehamNY

Enthusiast said:


> Now I have spent more time with the Stamic recording of the Gubaidulina I am clear that I prefer it greatly over the other account I have been listening to, the Danish Quartet.
> 
> The Danish recording leaves me a little "confused" and I think their account comes over as rather generic avant garde. There are many good moments but it doesn't hang together so well, although I am not sure they wanted it to.
> 
> By contrast, the Stamic Quartet are deeply inside the Gubaidulina idiom. That was the first thing that struck me about their recording. Their account is still of a rather uncomfortable work and is filled with tension without being as spiky as the Danish recording. What make a difference is that somehow the music makes perfect sense (don't ask me what that sense is but I feel a logic and a coherence) with the Stamic and they communicate so much more. Almost every phrase, perhaps every note, seems to communicate something ... something that is very recognisable as Gubaidulina. Add to all that the beautiful opening - viola sounding almost as a human voice - which makes perfect sense of that first slide (after about a minute) rather than making it sound rather alien (as the Danish do). Again and again through this recording I got an uncanny feeling that the instruments were human voices in a way I don't think I have experienced with quartets before. From the start I was hooked and drawn into the piece, which proceeds step by step in a convincing argument. Don't ask me what it is arguing but phrase after phrase seems almost to talk (or sing) words and to follow from what was "said" before. It no longer sounds too full of ideas - but it _is _filled with incident. It is not a comfortable work but with the Stamic it is deeply ... musical. Wonderful!
> 
> Apparently the players slowly move away from each other during the piece until they are each on their own. This is not an early premonition of social distancing but a theatrical aspect that underlines the work's apparent subject - loneliness. It is a very compact work (at least it is in the Stamic account) and when it ends - the closing pages are rather bleak - I felt that I had listened to a more substantial work than I would expect from one that lasts a little more than 20 minutes.
> 
> I am tempted to search out some other recordings to see how they compare but probably not while the work is a live one in this thread. I am really grateful, meanwhile, to have been introduced to it.


I'm going to agree with Enthusiast here on the Stamic Quartet. It's been a busy week, but I finally sat down today and put on a pair of headphones* instead of just playing it through my desktop speakers while going through email and whatnot. Whether you buy the concept of moving the instruments away from each other during the piece (and I think I can appreciate it now), it's hard to even pick that up without listening on a pair of cans with a good soundstage (as the audiophiles call it). In fact, I'd consider this a good test piece to determine if your cans truly have that. I also pick up some breathing sounds starting around the 8-minute mark. In this piece, it's far from a distraction but rather fits right in with the overall mood.

So it may have taken me a few days, but I'm now very glad to have been introduced to this music!

*I won't go too far down the audiophile black hole here. I know just enough to be a danger to myself and my wallet, but that's counter-balanced by knowing that just a few elements in your sound system really can make a measurable difference, without having to fall into any of the other money traps. Like most classical music but for this piece especially, the soundstage really does benefit from a good pair of "open back" headphones. (And of course a decent DAC/amp to clean up the noise if it's coming out of your computer or phone.) And now I will stop!


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## Allegro Con Brio

In case anyone's wondering about this week's selection - I'm PM'd Kreisler but haven't received a reply. If nothing by tomorrow afternoon-ish, can *Enthusiast* step in with an emergency pick? If not, I could do so.


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## Kreisler jr

I am sorry I am reduced to phone as my computer died and being not as familiar with the interface I missed this. I'd be happy if someone else could step in as I cannot type longer texts either.


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## HenryPenfold

Oops! Something went wrong!


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## Malx

Should we wait for ACB's call on the next choice as he suggested Enthusiast as an alternative selector?
Nothing against Saygun as a choice Henry, just wondering what is the best way to keep on the current path :tiphat:


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Should we wait for ACB's call on the next choice as he suggested Enthusiast as an alternative selector?
> Nothing against Saygun as a choice Henry, just wondering what is the best way to keep on the current path :tiphat:


I made it clear that it was only a suggestion, and I asked if there were any takers - I wasn't putting the work forward as 'the choice'. I'll take your answer as a non-taker!

I was just wondering about filling the gap, I hadn't realised the importance of the process outlined by ACB.

Mea culpa.


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## Kreisler jr

I can suggest a piece but I cannot do any introduction or comparison as typing on phone sucks and it might be another week until I get a normal computer setup again.


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## Enthusiast

Thanks for the offer but I would rather wait for a while. For one thing I would need to go through the last 6 months of threads to see what has been done. Go for it Kreisler jr. Or anyone else.


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## Kreisler jr

Maybe the list with the pieces cover could be made a pinned on read only thread. ..


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## sbmonty

Here is an updated list. Looking forward to another excellent week of listening.
Cheers!

*Talk Classical String Quartet Thread*

Arriaga - String Quartet No. 2
Bartók - String Quartet No. 4
Bax - String Quartet No. 1
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 7 "Razumovsky 1"
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 14
Beethoven - String Quartet No. 16
Berg - Lyric Suite
Borodin - String Quartet No. 2
Brahms - String Quartet No. 1
Britten - String Quartet No. 3
Carter - String Quartet No. 3
Crawford Seeger - String Quartet
Debussy - String Quartet in G Minor
Dusapin - String Quartet No. 7 "OpenTime"
Dutilleux - Ainsi La Nuit
Dvořák - String Quartet No. 14
Fauré - String Quartet in E Minor
Frank - Quijotidas
Gade - String Quartet in E Minor
Gerhard - String Quartet No. 2
Ginastera - String Quartet No. 2
Grieg - String Quartet No. 1
Gubaidulina - String Quartet No. 1
Haydn - String Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20/3
Haydn - String Quartet in F Minor, Op. 20/5
Hindemith - String Quartet No. 4
Holmboe - String Quartet No. 4
Ives - String Quartet No. 2
Koechlin - String Quartet No. 1
Korngold - String Quartet No. 2
Kurtág - Six Moments Musicaux for String Quartet
Lachenmann - Gran Torso
Langgaard - String Quartet No. 4
Ligeti - String Quartet No. 2
Lutosławski - String Quartet
Martinů - String Quartet No. 7 "Concerto da camera"
Fanny Mendelssohn - String Quartet in E Flat Major
Felix Mendelssohn - String Quartet No. 6
Milhaud - String Quartet No. 1
Mozart - String Quartet No. 19 "Dissonance" 
Nielsen - String Quartet No. 3
Pleyel - String Quartet in G Major, B. 332
Prokofiev - String Quartet No. 2 "Kabardinian"
Ran - String Quartet No. 3 "Glitter, Doom, Shards, Memory"
Ravel - String Quartet in F Major
Reger - String Quartet No. 4
Rihm - Et Lux for String Quartet and Vocals
Saariaho - Nymphéa (Jardin Secret III) for String Quartet and Live Electronics 
Schnittke - String Quartet No. 2
Schoenberg - String Quartet No. 4
Schubert - String Quartet No. 13 "Rosamunde" 
Schubert - String Quartet No. 15
Schumann - String Quartet No. 1
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 2
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 4
Shostakovich - String Quartet No. 8
Sibelius - String Quartet in D Minor "Voces Intimae"
Smetana - String Quartet No. 1 "From My Life"
Szymanowski - String Quartet No. 1
Tippett - String Quartet No. 2
Tchaikovsky - String Quartet No. 1
Vasks - String Quartet No. 4
Villa Lobos - String Quartet No. 14
Webern - Six Bagatelles for String Quartet
Weinberg - String Quartet No. 6
Xenakis - Tetras


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## Enthusiast

^ If that is a nudge to me to get over myself and suggest something then I would choose Zemlinsky's 4th quartet because he is not a composer we have sampled from yet. It is not a work I know but I have been planning to get to know Zemlinsky's quartets. There seem to be many recordings (good news, Merl!) but I think I only have the Lasalle Quartet account so far (and have only listened to that once). I remain very open to other suggestions.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Let’s go with the Zemlinsky! Kreisler, no problem; you can choose next week. The only work by this composer that I really know is the Lyric Symphony (wonderful), though I have listened to his 2nd quartet before based on enthusiastic recommendations around the site and remember being unimpressed, but that was before I learned to appreciate more modern music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Kreisler jr said:


> Maybe the list with the pieces cover could be made a pinned on read only thread. ..


This is a great idea, but we would need someone with mod-level access to keep revising the list because we cannot edit posts past a certain time. I could certainly ask though - since this thread is becoming such a staple on the forum and doesn't seem like it's going away anytime soon, it would certainly be beneficial to pin the list up in a visible spot!


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## Kreisler jr

Great choice. I have heard his quartets but do not know them well. The Zemlinsky piece I know best is the Lyric Symphony.


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## Enthusiast

I hope I don't find that I hate it! I do enjoy the Lyric Symphony, the Symphonische Gesange, the Mermaid and some songs.


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## Merl

Zemlinsky 4th is not a piece I know very well ( but I do have the 1981 Lasalle recording that I've only played once). Nice choice Enthusiast. 

Recordings I've found are:

Artis
Brodsky
LaSalle (1968 / 1981)
Schoenberg
Corda
Escher
Zemlinsky
Prazak
Lark

Pizzicato Bear appreciates the 2nd movement.


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## Allegro Con Brio

We’ve recieved permission to post the master quartet list as a sticky! We have been offered the choice of either making a new thread (sticky) to post at the top of the Solo and Chamber Music subforum, or add the list into the first post of the current thread (with updates). What would you all prefer? Personally I think the latter might be more accessible but I just want to get a quick sounding of opinion before we decide for sure.


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## HenryPenfold

Enthusiast said:


> I hope I don't find that I hate it!


Impossible, it's a wonderful piece - I even prefer it to the mighty second!


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## StevehamNY

I read in a review that Zemlinsky's music is always "teetering on the edge of collapsing musical tonality," which seems to me like a perfect description. There's so much raw emotion in this piece, too, much of it pretty dark. He'd fled Germany by this point, and Alban Berg had just died. (The "suite" format here is a tribute to his Lyric Suite, I believe?) 

In any case, I personally feel that Zemlinsky's quartets are seriously underrated, and I'm very much looking forward to the survey this week!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> We've recieved permission to post the master quartet list as a sticky! We have been offered the choice of either making a new thread (sticky) to post at the top of the Solo and Chamber Music subforum, or *add the list into the first post of the current thread (with updates). *What would you all prefer? Personally I think the latter might be more accessible but I just want to get a quick sounding of opinion before we decide for sure.


I'm with the later idea too, ACB. It's all in one place then. Great work.


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## Allegro Con Brio

AllMusic provides reliably terse and insightful commentaries, and this is no exception:



> The String Quartet No. 4 of Alexander von Zemlinsky was composed in 1936 and dedicated to the memory of Zemlinsky's friend Alban Berg who had died on Christmas Eve 1935. Like Berg's Lyric Suite for string quartet, Zemlinsky's Fourth is a suite of six movements consisting of an alternation of fast and slow tempos. The opening Prelude is marked senza expressione and quotes the main theme of Zemlinsky's second quartet, the theme that is a musical symbol for Zemlinsky himself. The second movement is a brutal rondo Burlesque like the closing movement of Zemlinsky's Third. The third movement is the lyrical heart of the work, a brief but deeply emotional Adagietto. The fourth movement is called Intermezzo, but it is actually the pivotal dramatic moment in the quartet: after energetic and heroic striving, the music seems to expire in the upper air of the violins. The penultimate movement is a Theme and Variations subtitled Barcarole, a comforting and consoling interlude before the fury of the Finale-Doppelfuge (Finale-Double Fugue). Recalling the themes, rhythms, and particularly the frenzied energy of the Burlesque and the Intermezzo in its themes and their working out, the Finale takes the Fourth to a thrilling and terrifying conclusion.


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## sbmonty

Excellent choice! Thanks Enthusiast.


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## sbmonty

Allegro Con Brio said:


> We've recieved permission to post the master quartet list as a sticky! We have been offered the choice of either making a new thread (sticky) to post at the top of the Solo and Chamber Music subforum, or add the list into the first post of the current thread (with updates). What would you all prefer? Personally I think the latter might be more accessible but I just want to get a quick sounding of opinion before we decide for sure.


Thanks ACB. I think the latter as well.


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## Clloydster

I gave this quartet a chance - I listened to the recording by the Schoneberg Quartet.

I didn't hate it - there were parts that I enjoyed a little - the second movement, and the Adagio. But right now I don't think this one will get the in depth listening I've given to some of the others. Again, I just seem to prefer works from the 19th century and before.

I've been listening to a lot of Schubert, as well as that Takacs Quartet box set of Beethoven's quartets, and really enjoying them. I'll keep going there.


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## Art Rock

I have added the current list to the first post. For updates, please send them to me by PM and I will add them in.

:tiphat:


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## HenryPenfold

Listening to this week's choice performed by the splendid LaSalle Quartet on Deutsche Grammophon from the 20 Century series set that has been with me over 30 years.

The fourth is probably my favourite of Zemlinsky's string quartets, not least because it falls within the early/mid twentieth century 2VS sound world that I adore.

Alban Berg's Lyric suite from just over a decade earlier, Schoenberg's fourth quartet Op.37 from 1936 form part of this rich period of string quartet writing; although it must be said that Webern's String Quartet Op.28 of 1937-38 has moved ahead of these times and for me is rather more rewarding.

Listening to Zemlinsky's 4th a couple of times this morning has reminded me that his work does not deserve to be in the shadow of the mighty 2VS trio of AS, AB & AvW.

As per normal with me, I shall probably be sticking with the recording in my collection, and will eagerly read other members' assessments of different, available recordings.


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## Malx

Like Henry I have the LaSalle Quartet in the collection - I have had a listen through twice this morning but without any real level of concentration. There is still plenty of time this week to give it my full attention, initial opinion is that this is a very worthwhile piece that compares favourably with the others in the box set I have.
The one thing that occurs to me is that there are many works that I have listened to over the years that would benefit from the specific attention given when selected for this thread - long live the thread!


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## Merl

Love that Burleske movement for some reason. Hmmmm....


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Brodsky recording first and was underwelmed, to put it mildly. Their rough-handed treatment almost put me off this quartet. However, then I gave the LaSalle a shot and absolutely loved it. They do justice to the austere moments of the work as well as its beauties. This also reconciled me with the LaSalle quartet, whose very dry reading of the Beethoven quartets scared me away from those for decades when I was given a second-hand complete vinyl set as a teenager. However, they are absolutely perfect for Zemlinski et al. and, in fact, I kick myself for having thrown away the Beethoven set in the 90s, as it seems to be unavailable now. Maybe my assessment at age 16 was too harsh.

I agree that this quartet deserves to be given more attention.


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## Art Rock

I have the Lasalle quartet versions in a low cost re-issue of the DG recordings on Brilliant Classics (with the first string quartet by Apostel as bonus). The third and fourth are my favourites of the bunch. I don't think the Kronos Quartet ever played this, but it would have fitted in with some of their late 80s/early 90s CD's. With outstanding movements like the varied Burlesque, the Adagietto (which would not be out of place in a Shostakovich quartet), and the playful Intermezzo, the fourth is one of my favourite 'unheralded' string quartets of the 20th century - perhaps even of all time.


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## Merl

I got to listen to the LaSalle, Lark, Prazak and Schoenberg quartet recordings last night and today. I enjoyed one more than the others. What I will say is the Prazak recording really didn't make any impression on me at all. They really don't seem to get to the heart of this one. The other 3 are much better.


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## Knorf

Zemlinsky Fourth Quartet is a terrific choice, good for hopping back aboard this wagon.


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## starthrower

Knorf said:


> Zemlinsky Fourth Quartet is a terrific choice, good for hopping back aboard this wagon.


Glad to see you back, Knorf! Things get a bit heated here over differing opinions but I greatly appreciate your contributions and insight on the music. I am a bit of a Zemlinsky fan and I've listened to the Artis Quartett for this piece. I have their Nimbus CD. I also really enjoy the EMI 3 disc orchestral set conducted by James Conlon.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I listened to the Brodsky recording first and was underwelmed, to put it mildly. Their rough-handed treatment almost put me off this quartet. However, then I gave the LaSalle a shot and absolutely loved it. They do justice to the austere moments of the work as well as its beauties. This also reconciled me with the LaSalle quartet, whose very dry reading of the Beethoven quartets scared me away from those for decades when I was given a second-hand complete vinyl set as a teenager. However, they are absolutely perfect for Zemlinski et al. and, in fact, I kick myself for having thrown away the Beethoven set in the 90s, as it seems to be unavailable now. Maybe my assessment at age 16 was too harsh.
> 
> I agree that this quartet deserves to be given more attention.


I also listened to the Brodsky recording today but i thoroughly enjoyed their edgier account. I listened to the warmer, more lyrical Escher on Naxos and thought that was nice too. I ended the day listening to the Artis recording and loved their phrasing and class. 3 high quality recordings. Ill try and listen to the Corda recording asap.


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## Kreisler jr

I listened to the LARK recording, Escher and LaSalle will follow. Admittedly, I had not realised that the mvmt form was an homage to Berg's Lyric suite. Zemlinsky does not quite reach such an exalted sphere and his work is also rather different. we get an energetically angry finale instead of a funereal one and overall it is more dark and angry than Lyric but it is a very good piece that deserved to be better known.


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## Allegro Con Brio

After listening to this quartet twice now, from the Brodsky and Artis Quartets respectively, one initial thought jumps to mind - _how is it that I've neglected Zemlinsky for this long???_ This music simply grips my throat and won't let go. My only excuse is that there have been so many other composers I've explored since "modern" music clicked for me and, apparently, I considered von Z "too modern" for my pre-pandemic (a.k.a. pre-unhinged listening binge) tastes and simply hadn't got around to him since then. This is such a perfect choice for the thread because there truly is enough material in it for a week's worth (or more) of exploration; it is certainly one of those works that you can find something new in for, at least, your first several listens. The Lyric Suite connections are clear - soaring, opulent, highly chromatic (though not atonal, granted) melody lines, rich counterpoint, and an identical structure - but, as much as I love Berg's masterpiece I find some of the movements just a tad too homogeneous in style while Zemlinsky finds a different palette for each one. This is also a great quartet to focus on one "voice" for an entire movement because the writing is so complex. It has the qualities of the best Shostakovich quartets in that it marries unity and diversity in tantalizing proportion, with the grotesque and the sublime existing on an equal plane. That Intermezzo with its haunted, jaunty melody and gruff elaborations, in particular, I find to be strangely moving. But then there are those supremely enigmatic variations on a wistful cello solo, that blossom into a florid and searching lyricism only to be quelled shockingly by the deliriously fun Doppelfuge (in the Brodsky recording, they attack the first slap pizzicato chord of the finale so harshly that it made my heart leap out of my chest). This is easily one of my three or so favorite discoveries from this thread, and maybe one of the great quartets of its particular time frame.

As for my preference between the two recordings? Brodsky is sleek, streamlined, and secure but I thought Artis found more poetry, sustained intensity, and imagination of phrasing in the proceedings. I think the Burlesque movement is key for a satisfying performance, as it can get a bit long and monotonous compared to the other movements and it has to come off with no-holds-barred energy and abandon.


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## Merl

^ what he said. 

Yeah, I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying this one and, delving back a few quartets in the LaSalle set, shocked at how I've neglected this Zemlinsky quartet since I got it 20 years ago. Obviously pizzicato bear and myself found the adorable Burleske movement an instant hit but its the intermezzo that I'm finding really engaging. Like ACB, I hear the voice of a Shostakovich (and obviously Berg) but the more I play the whole quartet the more I fall for its charms. The all-female Corda quartet (who were German, I believe) fall somewhere between the Escher and the LaSalles and are given a rather close up but pleasant enough sound by Chandos. Perhaps others capture the flow of the quartet better or the melancholy of the 5th movement but they play really well. They're certainly more arresting and interesting than the Lark quartet, who really don't give this enough bite.


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## Enthusiast

It is an excellent work and I have enjoyed listening to it (so far - more to come). It is very much a suite - a suite of six near-perfect and quite serious musical essays that are each quite different - and perhaps doesn't come over as a unitary work. Perhaps the Barcarole is the heart of the piece. I was struck by how individual and distinctive it is - it does not resemble anyone else - and suspect I will be doing a lot more exploration of Zemlinsky than I have so far. I didn't know it at the time but it seems I made a good choice!


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## starthrower

It's been several years since I picked up the Artis Quartett CD, and a few since I've given it a listen. But revisiting No.4 this week tells me I must have had a good reason for buying it. After a couple listens I'm finding the first four movements to be the strongest and most interesting. And the music of the Adagietto 3rd brought Berg to mind and his obsession with Hanna. I hear it as a lamentation for a doomed love affair. It also made me think of Zemlinsky's precarious situation in Europe of the 1930s and the ultimate sad ending to his life dying in obscurity in Westchester county in New York state. Of course that's not what it's about but I chose to interpret it that way. Thankfully his music hasn't been forgotten.


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## Carmina Banana

This is my third time trying to write about my general impressions of this piece. I want to stress first of all that I am really enjoying this quartet. It is beautifully written. There are moments that are very poignant, but it is never sentimental. The final Doppelfuge is surgically precise and the perfect ending to the set of pieces.
When I first heard it, I picked up a strong Hindemith vibe and couldn’t shake it. My relationship with Hindemith is complicated. Without going into it too much, I have always admired it, but also felt that is somehow felt like it was a little too safe and impersonal. 
So I am getting a little of that with this piece. I’m not having a catharsis when I listen to it, but I am really enjoying it nevertheless. My brain is enjoying more than my heart??

My listening so far:
LaSalle: Beautiful. Expressive playing and applying of old school romantic sensibilities which are not necessarily out of place, depending on your take on the piece.

Escher quartet:
Nice crispness to contrapuntal textures. Great character to everything. Poignant at times, but never dripping with sentiment. 
Overall, a cleaner sound, which fits the piece and their straight forward, light-of-day approach is perfect for the final movement especially.

Corda: 
Rougher and, in some ways more exciting. Less controlled than Escher. There are moments that almost seem impressionistic. That is not really what I am looking for in my ultimate interpretation of the piece. 

My favorite so far is the Escher. I love the clarity of this performance.


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## Bwv 1080

Been listening to the Schoenberg Qt as I am unable to follow BWV’s dictum as the Zemlinsky Quartet recording is not on IDAGIO. Really cool piece, first thing by Zemlinsky I have listened to. The 4th chord opening reminded me of the slow movement of Bartok’s 2nd piano concerto. The Burleske, theme &var and double fugue all very effective. Less influenced by Stravinsky than the Tippet piece from last week - and no real comparison as the Tippett was a relatively early work and this is a late, mature piece.


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## Merl

I've posted my thoughts on the available recordings on my blog. If you're even slightly interested just click on the link below.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3471-zemlinsky-string-quartet-4-a.html


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## Burbage

It's Friday. And so:

SearsPoncho asked, not long ago, whether it's necessary to know anything about a work, or its composer, to "understand" it. It's an interesting question, and I began drafting a response. It was an interesting response that took me from the evolution of birdsong, via the nature of language and neuropsychology, to a burial chamber high on a Welsh promontory, overlooking the sea. But, much as "music" isn't a universal language and "relevant" isn't a universal constant, "interesting" is a moveable feast. So consider yourselves spared.

Having had that in mind, however, I tried to take a naive approach to this. Or, at least, an even more naive approach than usual. It wasn't difficult. Zemlinsky is, much of the time, consigned to footnotes under writing about Schoenberg; an also-ran in the marital and compositional stakes, and I've not listened to this very often, though I must confess to a prior, if passing, liking for it.

With my naive ears on, the thing I hear in Zemlinsky's fourth quartet is just about everything. There's not a hummable tune in it, but there's Brahms and Wagner and Beethoven, at least. There's a good deal of counterpoint, plenty of humour and a keen sense of the dramatic. It's not short of mood-swings or surprises, there's not a lot of note-spinning, and it sounds 'crafted', in the best sense. There's nothing routine about it, even the double-fugue, yet it fits together nicely.

My naive ears don't, however, entirely answer the question that always bothers me: why was this written? So I did some reading.

Zemlinsky didn't have much to be cheerful about in 1936. After Berlin had turned hostile and he'd been booted out of his opera-house job, he'd gone to Vienna, just in time for the Austrian civil war and a lurch to the far-right that would eventually drive him across the Atlantic. But, for the moment, he was safer than he had been, and had time to devote to composing. As a composer of operas, he might have preferred to write an opera, but not having an opera house to play with, or any real job at all, it would have been an arduous gamble. He'd also written string quartets before, the last dedicated to a Professor Friedrich Buxbaum, a cellist at the opera and in the famous Rosé Quartet, who'd also fled to Vienna.

Assorted writers suggest it's a memorial to Berg, being called a Suite and casting in it six movements. Though, as Berg's Lyric Suite had been itself a nod to Zemlinsky, that would seem a slightly circular gesture, and there's no explicit dedication. Naively, I'm reminded as much of Beethoven's Op.130, down to the spiky raspberries in the finale, as anything in the Lyric Suite. And I guess Zemlinsky knew his Beethoven well, having conducted plenty of it, and rebuilt Fidelio to fit on two pianos.

So, on balance, I suspect he wrote this partly because it had a chance of being performed and partly as an act of friendship to those who might perform or hear it.

As a composer, Zemlinsky is sometimes viewed as the link between Brahms and Hindemith, but I'm not too sure about the Hindemith link. And there's much more to Zemlinksy than the one path, if only because he was so very well connected. He was student, teacher, colleague, mentor and friend to just about everyone in Berlin or Vienna and, though he fell from view in America and is little written-about now, that may well be because so many of those friends had been vanished. It's easy to remember that Berg and Webern and Schoenberg and Korngold were his students, less so that Krasa and Weigl and Müller-Hermann were, too. But that, in itself, is an impressive and very diverse list. The school of Zemlinsky seems to have been a school of everything*.

Which, to answer the question I started with, is more-or-less what I'd understood before I'd done any research.

I've been metaphorically spinning the Escher disks. They're fine.

* _Everything in his central-European world, at least. Elsewhere, Bax, Maconchy and Barber, among others, were also writing fine, and very different, quartets._


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## Carmina Banana

I, too, started a response to SearsPoncho’s question and then digitally crumpled it up. 
Maybe I felt like I was opening a can worms and it was better to leave the lid on for now. I do think it is a fascinating question, however, and I wouldn’t mind hearing the views of others. 
Just to pry open that lid slightly, I will say that I think humans naturally think metaphorically and cannot avoid having associations or connections during their exposure to music. This may occur in varying degrees and it might be musical or extra-musical. Even if musical notation in the shape of cross does little to affect our listening experience (Gubaidalina), the appearance of a fugue as the final movement (Zemlinksy) is going to have great symbolic meaning for many people. 
I am not really answering the question about how much information we should have in order to enjoy a piece of music. I am saying that information can sneak in from a variety of means, including through the music itself. It is impossible to have a completely pure and unbiased listening experience so we might as well read those liner notes.
I guess I am now flirting with the field of aesthetics and if anyone wants to shut this down right now, I totally understand.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina,

First off, you have one of the best screen names on this forum. I always value your consistently insightful analysis, as well as Burbage's always interesting and informative contributions. I would certainly be interested in your opinions on this issue, so, yeah, I'm opening the floodgates.

I believe that at one point or another I mentioned that the two works that pulled me into the world of classical music were Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez and Beethoven's 9th. Hearing these works at the age of 20 affected me deeply and profoundly, although I was unaware that when these pieces were written, one composer was blind and the other was deaf. These are not insignificant facts, and I admired both men for creating such great art in light of these major disabilities. Did it affect my opinion of the music at all? Not a bit. Beethoven's Op.132 quartet is my favorite quartet, and I have cried during performances of the slow third movement, although I was initially unaware of the background of the composition or the "Heiliger Dankgesang..." notation and context. Did discovery of these extra-musical details change my opinion of the work one bit? No. I admired the man for it, as well as the human spirit, but it seems that, for me, music exists in a vacuum. There's also the example of the, in my very humble opinion, extremely tedious tone poems of Richard Strauss (apologies to fans of his music. I do love the 4 Last Songs). As you might guess, I first listened to them without any knowledge of the programmatic descriptions, and eventually followed the music with the detailed information in my lap. Did the music sound different? Was it more compelling or interesting in the slightest? Not for me. I could give hundreds of examples (probably better ones). Ok, you get the point.

Even information regarding form, such as sonata-allegro, binary, scherzo-trio, rondo (not Rajon), etc. never affected my appreciation for music. I might admire the craftsmanship or genius of how a composer put a piece together (see Brahms 4th Symphony), but, for me, the music must ultimately stand on its own legs. Furthermore, I have always been convinced that if you asked someone with absolutely no musical knowledge to describe what is happening in the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th, they would give a perfect description of sonata-allegro form, although they would use different words.

I do not mean to discourage discovering as much as one can about a composer and any given composition, in fact, I would encourage anyone to learn as much as possible about the composers and the music. Education is a good thing, and so is the context behind the music we love and the men and women behind the music; such knowledge is advisable and to be encouraged for multiple reasons. Furthermore, this is only *my* experience, and I fully acknowledge that such extra-musical associations might affect others' enjoyment of the music itself. Such knowledge can also have a direct impact on one's appreciation of other compositions by the same composer, composers of the same era, composers of different eras, composers who musically quote another work for a reason, modern works which exist in a different paradigm than Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, and thus, need to be explained to listeners who are not familiar with this new paradigm, etc...Ah! Now I understand why Carmina mentioned shutting this down right now. One could go on and on about these matters, so I will stop. Suffice it to say that this is not a black and white, or simple issue.

One more thing: *It's great having Knorf back*! We missed you.

P.S. Ok, I had to give one more example to show how crazy I really am regarding these matters. When I listen to an opera recording, I don't even read the libretto anymore; I just listen to it as a composition, with my only concern being the quality of the music. I am aware of the general plot, but I must admit that it's not the plot that keeps me coming back to my favorite operas, it's the music.

Happy weekend and good health to you all.


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## StevehamNY

It was another week with a limited number of recordings, and no real bad covers in the bunch, but I will say that this is one great cover:









There's so much personality in the figure of Zemlinsky here, with the cigar and his hands in his pockets like he's got the world by the tail. (I recognize the irony that by 1936 he probably didn't feel this way too often.)

As always, listening to the weekly quartet has been an oasis amongst the worldly chaos, this week even more than usual. So thank you yet again to everyone here!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Oh...Didn't listen to Zemlinsky yet. I will now! I will put on the Chandos recording


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## Allegro Con Brio

I am more interested in music expressing cultural sentiments of the composer's time, not so much the composer's actual circumstances, which is why I love to make connections with visual art, philosophy, and literature from the same time period. I'm a bit geeky that way. But in the end I agree that music that can't hold up as a purely abstract sensory experience doesn't hold my interest either way.

If you're ready to give it another shot this week, *Kreisler jr*, it's your turn! After that we will have come to the end of our third round (barring, of course, anyone else offering to nominate, and I extend a welcome invitation to do so for any lurkers!)


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## Bwv 1080

Wonder what the story was with the Jewish Zemlinsky adding the ‘von’ to his name? Other assimilated Jews did not try this - don’t see Gustav von Mahler or Arnold von Schoenberg


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Oh...Didn't listen to Zemlinsky yet. I will now! I will put on the Chandos recording


There were 2 on Chandos! I listened first to the Schoenberg quartet and now the Brodskys. I like them both, but have a short memory. I'm not so familiar with Zemlinsky, maybe not so far from Bartok in style. Music with some cool attitude!


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## starthrower

Bwv 1080 said:


> Wonder what the story was with the Jewish Zemlinsky adding the 'von' to his name? Other assimilated Jews did not try this - don't see Gustav von Mahler or Arnold von Schoenberg


The family name was Semlinski. Alexander's father changed it to von Zemlinsky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_von_Zemlinsky


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## Art Rock

Allegro Con Brio said:


> After that we will have come to the end of our third round (barring, of course, anyone else offering to nominate, and I extend a welcome invitation to do so for any lurkers!)


I'd like to nominate Bruch - String Quartet No. 2.


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## Kreisler jr

I can go the next week, if we now take the Bruch suggestion


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## Kreisler jr

I wonder how one could get away with self-nobilitation... maybe in lax Austria better not try it in Prussia...
But it has nothing to do with a jewish background. The name changing father was a convert, only Zemlinsky's mother was jewish.


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## Enthusiast

SearsPoncho said:


> Carmina,
> 
> First off, you have one of the best screen names on this forum. I always value your consistently insightful analysis, as well as Burbage's always interesting and informative contributions. I would certainly be interested in your opinions on this issue, so, yeah, I'm opening the floodgates.
> 
> I believe that at one point or another I mentioned that the two works that pulled me into the world of classical music were Rodrigo's Concerto de Aranjuez and Beethoven's 9th. Hearing these works at the age of 20 affected me deeply and profoundly, although I was unaware that when these pieces were written, one composer was blind and the other was deaf. These are not insignificant facts, and I admired both men for creating such great art in light of these major disabilities. Did it affect my opinion of the music at all? Not a bit. Beethoven's Op.132 quartet is my favorite quartet, and I have cried during performances of the slow third movement, although I was initially unaware of the background of the composition or the "Heiliger Dankgesang..." notation and context. Did discovery of these extra-musical details change my opinion of the work one bit? No. I admired the man for it, as well as the human spirit, but it seems that, for me, music exists in a vacuum. There's also the example of the, in my very humble opinion, extremely tedious tone poems of Richard Strauss (apologies to fans of his music. I do love the 4 Last Songs). As you might guess, I first listened to them without any knowledge of the programmatic descriptions, and eventually followed the music with the detailed information in my lap. Did the music sound different? Was it more compelling or interesting in the slightest? Not for me. I could give hundreds of examples (probably better ones). Ok, you get the point.
> 
> Even information regarding form, such as sonata-allegro, binary, scherzo-trio, rondo (not Rajon), etc. never affected my appreciation for music. I might admire the craftsmanship or genius of how a composer put a piece together (see Brahms 4th Symphony), but, for me, the music must ultimately stand on its own legs. Furthermore, I have always been convinced that if you asked someone with absolutely no musical knowledge to describe what is happening in the 1st movement of Beethoven's 5th, they would give a perfect description of sonata-allegro form, although they would use different words.
> 
> I do not mean to discourage discovering as much as one can about a composer and any given composition, in fact, I would encourage anyone to learn as much as possible about the composers and the music. Education is a good thing, and so is the context behind the music we love and the men and women behind the music; such knowledge is advisable and to be encouraged for multiple reasons. Furthermore, this is only *my* experience, and I fully acknowledge that such extra-musical associations might affect others' enjoyment of the music itself. Such knowledge can also have a direct impact on one's appreciation of other compositions by the same composer, composers of the same era, composers of different eras, composers who musically quote another work for a reason, modern works which exist in a different paradigm than Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, and thus, need to be explained to listeners who are not familiar with this new paradigm, etc...Ah! Now I understand why Carmina mentioned shutting this down right now. One could go on and on about these matters, so I will stop. Suffice it to say that this is not a black and white, or simple issue.
> 
> One more thing: *It's great having Knorf back*! We missed you.
> 
> P.S. Ok, I had to give one more example to show how crazy I really am regarding these matters. When I listen to an opera recording, I don't even read the libretto anymore; I just listen to it as a composition, with my only concern being the quality of the music. I am aware of the general plot, but I must admit that it's not the plot that keeps me coming back to my favorite operas, it's the music.
> 
> Happy weekend and good health to you all.


I am with you 100% - enough to make me repeat your post again - in everything you say. In the end it is about the music. But I do guess that by now we can hear the period in the music and have some idea of the concerns of that time.


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## HenryPenfold

Would like to say thanks to all who made such interesting posts on this quartet, I've really enjoyed following the discussion and I've learnt a fair bit! :tiphat:


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## Malx

Due to other commitments this week I didn't investigate further than the LaSalle version I have in the collection. I enjoyed getting to know this fine quartet better than I had previously - nothing more to add that hasn't been said already.


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## Enthusiast

In the end I was able to hear four accounts of the work - LaSalle, Schoenberg, Prazak and Brodsky - but couldn't choose between them. I liked them all and found they each had something somewhat different to say. The thing is that hearing several accounts has led to me feeling a little differently about the work than listening to the LaSalle alone would have allowed. I have commented that the LaSalle played each movement beautifully but that the work from them emerged very much as a suite rather than a totally coherent whole. I didn't get the same impression from the others. My ears found the Brodsky recording a little easier to digest and perhaps more immediately communicative. I liked the Prazak recording and found the Schoenberg recording the most mature ... but maybe the least distinctive. 

I think I may not do much for next week's quartet partly because I have the Zemlinsky bug now and want to get to know the other quartets.


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## Knorf

I really enjoyed reading everyone's Zemlinsky comments! I love how deeply people dig in to their listening in this thread. As a professional musician, you hope listeners will do this at least sometimes, but I fear frankly that it is all too rare.

Zemlinsky for me is a major composer. His neglect during his lifetime shows you how unfair and fickle the music industry is, even for classical. So much "received knowledge" distorts and conceals, or outright misrepresents, what's really out there.


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## SearsPoncho

Before we move on from Zemlinsky, would you guys say that the 2nd quartet is the next work one unfamiliar with Z should hear? I have also been enjoying the LaSalle Quartet this week; should I go with their recordings for the rest of the quartets? I also like their Berg and Shoenberg.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Since Kreisler OK'd it, we can go with Art Rock's Bruch nomination this week. Honestly, he's a composer who I pretty much haven't given a second thought to - the famous violin concerto doesn't float my boat and, well, I can't say I've spent any significant time exploring the rest of his ouevre. Seems to me like he's as close as it gets to a "one hit wonder" to casual CM fans, so I'm looking forward to seeing what else he has to offer.



SearsPoncho said:


> Before we move on from Zemlinsky, would you guys say that the 2nd quartet is the next work one unfamiliar with Z should hear?


Yes! I listened to it a couple days ago and was blown away. It's a massive, ambitious masterpiece that enfolds a classic four-movement structure, but it is all based on a single motto theme that is run through infinite possibilities. Most of it is very chromatic (more so than the 4th to my ears) but the last few minutes are incredibly beautiful as he gives us a peaceful, tonal coda after 40 minutes of restless shifting sands. The work reminds me of Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht (oh, how I wish that one was a _quartet_ instead of a sextet so it could be nominated for this thread!) Highly recommended! It seems to me as if these quartets would hugely benefit from live performance, as they sound physically and technically demanding to the performers and such music always seems to foster especially memorable communicative experiences.


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## Art Rock

Bruch - String quartet 2

It's been a while since I played it, but I remember liking it (the first as well), and in fact preferring it over the three Brahms quartets. I have it on CD by the Mannheimer Streichquartett on CPO, but there are several versions available, also on Youtube.

Mannheimer
Diogenes
Academica


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## Merl

The Goldner and Isos quartet also recorded it (that's all the versions I could find). 
As I knew this was coming I had a listen last night to the Mannheimer quartet. I have heard this quartet once before but it didn't register back then. It seems like a nice piece on my listen from last night . I'll give it some more stick today to see if starts sticking.


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## Kreisler jr

I think the 2nd quartet used to be Zemlinsky's most famous. It is a large scale work, one of the few (like Schoenberg's op.7) that try to take up or even expand on the continous form of Beethoven's op.131.

I have not heard the Bruch quartet. He has a great late octet for strings


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## Merl

Listening to the Academica performance of the Bruch 2 they're not as strong as the Mannheimers. Still fine but the Mannheimers play in better sound and a more refined manner for me. The Academicas are decent enough but the Mannheimers are classier across all movements. This quartet is starting to grow on me a bit more.


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## HenryPenfold

Bruch has never really floated my boat, I find his music a bit _meh_. However, listening to this quartet this afternoon three times back to back while preparing dinners etc has really changed my mind. I immediately concur with Art Rock's view vis-a-vis the Brahms quartets. I think I'm going to enjoy this week's choice - thanks Art Rock :cheers:


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## Merl

Like Henry, Bruch has never been a fave composer of mine but this quartet has really improved my opinion of him. Its well-crafted and the vivace and finale are highly enjoyable. Listening to all the available recordings I can't decide whether I prefer the rhythmical swing of the Mannheimers or the slightly edgier but a little mannered Diogenes. Both are fine accounts and much preferable to the Academica recording which sounds very dry, isnt always that well played and lacks some punch. I've not made my mind up yet. I'll have another listen over the next few days.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This quartet definitely surprised me. I found Bruch’s style to be much more unique and distinctive than I was expecting. There are lots of lovely little touches that elevate it into the realm of an excellent work. I love the short, declamatory first movement introduction; it’s an effective attention-grabber and has some surprising harmonic ingenuity, and its altered appearance at the end is nice, although I was somewhat less taken with what transpired in between. The slow movement, however, is a real beauty. It sounds quite Dvorakian to me with a folksy, hymn-like flavor and gorgeous rustic simplicity. The scherzo is fun if a bit grating, and the finale sustains a nice impetus through symphonic textures and almost Schubertian use of melody. Is it higher than “very pleasant” in my estimation? Maybe not, but I certainly did not expect as much. Sometimes the “lesser known Romantics” are not up my alley (I know Raff, Gade, and Berwald have their fans, but I find their music rather unmemorable) and I feared this quartet would be along those lines, but I enjoyed it very much for the most part. Even not having heard any others, I agree with Merl’s assessment that the Diogenes recording was sort of edgy and mannered, with dry tone/recording acoustic.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I don't know why I didn't jump in on this thread earlier. The discussion seems wonderful and I know/like most of the works that were previously nominated. I don't know if I'll be able to contribute in such an insightful way as most of the participants here do, but I'd definitely like to join in. I'll try to keep up with the weekly nomination, and if there's a slot open I'd also like to nominate works


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## starthrower

Will try to get to the Bruch quartet before the end of the week. Like many others I've heard only the violin concerto. It's been a while but I remember it being a bit more lyrical and enjoyable than other romantic concertos of which I'm not a big fan. But my memory is a kinda foggy.


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## Bwv 1080

Find the Bruch quartet kind of dull, but FWIW felt the same about the Schubert and Dvorak. Been listening to Zemlinsky's other quartets, which I like quite alot


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## Allegro Con Brio

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I don't know why I didn't jump in on this thread earlier. The discussion seems wonderful and I know/like most of the works that were previously nominated. I don't know if I'll be able to contribute in such an insightful way as most of the participants here do, but I'd definitely like to join in. I'll try to keep up with the weekly nomination, and if there's a slot open I'd also like to nominate works


Added! Your spot will be in two weeks after Kreisler jr picks. Welcome to the gang (in the most positive sense of that term, of course!)


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Added! Your spot will be in two weeks after Kreisler jr picks. Welcome to the gang (in the most positive sense of that term, of course!)


Yes, welcome!

Now Merl will tell you about the initiation video...


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Added! Your spot will be in two weeks after Kreisler jr picks. Welcome to the gang (in the most positive sense of that term, of course!)


Great! Thank you!



> Now Merl will tell you about the initiation video...


sounds fun...


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Yes, welcome!
> 
> Now Merl will tell you about the initiation video...


I'll save it as a surprise.

Listening to the Bruch 2 recordings again today the *Academicas* have definitely risen in my estimation a bit more but they're still behind the *Diogenes* and Mannheimer accounts. For me the *Mannheimer* is my favourite recording as it has a perfect mix of everything I like in there. The Diogenes quartet are similarly fine but they seem to be just a little forced in places. It's an excellent recorded sound but I really do appreciate the extra rhythmic push of the Mannheimers and the fluidity with which they play. Apart from some dodgy intonation in places and odd bits of sloppy ensemble the Academicas are also convincing. Therefore the order is as below.









1. Mannheimer - superb pacing 
2. Diogenes - exciting and beautully engineered 
3. Academica - decent but not spectacular enough to trouble the other 2 in my book.


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## Enthusiast

Well, I did listen to the Bruch work (the Mannheimer recording) and, like some others, was pleasantly surprised: it is a cheery work on the whole and has quite a lot of life in it. It isn't really my thing and I doubt I would search out opportunities to hear it but I certainly wouldn't avoid it.


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## Carmina Banana

After reading a few things about Bruch, I am relieved to see that I am right where I should be as a typical listener: I have heard the first violin concerto, the Scottish Fantasy and Kol Nidre many, many times, but rarely listen to anything else by this composer. 
Like Brahms, Bruch can come up with the big tear-jerking melody and moments of exhilaration. I don’t think he did as consistently as Brahms which may account for his lower stature on the favorites poll. 
I am enjoying all of the cozy good feelings of this quartet. It is always refreshing to come back to pure 19th century sincerity once in a while. The only movement I have a problem with right now is the vivace. This is the sort of thing Schumann would do—give us a glimpse of the goblins chasing him, but in this case, I can’t help thinking of Polly tied up on the railroad tracks. I think the Academica does the best job giving this movement some dignity and making it seem more artistic than silly-sounding.
Having said that, the Mannheim quartet have seem magical moments such as the very opening which is sets the stage perfectly for a quintessential romantic piece.
I haven’t quite found my favorite performance yet.


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## Merl

Edited list :

I got to listen to the long deleted Isos Quartet recording today. Whilst it's decent enough, it's a bit 'old fashioned' and festooned with too much vibrato for my tastes. Hence I've dropped it down to the bottom of the list. I stand by my previous comments on the other recordings but must say that the Academica account is catching up to the Diogenes more and more with each listen.

View attachment 156153


1. Mannheimer - superb pacing 
2. Diogenes - exciting and beautully engineered 
3. Academica - decent but not spectacular enough to trouble the other 2 in my book. Definitely a grower though.
4. Isos - long-deleted and with a bit too much vibrato and not enough fire for my tastes.


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## Clloydster

I have really enjoyed this week's selection - while the first movement has not left a lasting impression on me, the subsequent movements have been very enjoyable. I listened the the Mannheimer recording, and liked it a lot. I was not familiar with Bruch prior to this, but will definitely give this quartet another hearing.


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## Malx

Although not greatly inspired by this weeks selection of Bruch's second quartet - my problem, pre-judging is a major failing and something I'm not prone to - however I did push on and listened to the Mannheimer, Diogenes and Academia recordings via streaming.
My overall impression was of a skilled composer but one not overly inspired in this quartet. I found little to excite me as I listened and found myself thinking of this as being similar to but less engaging than a number of romantic composers - hearing a little Mendelssohn and perhaps Schubertian influences.
Of the three recordings I tried I preferred the Diogenes as they seemed to give the work a bit more life.


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## StevehamNY

Not much to complain about on the covers this week, although I could have sworn this was a foursome getting ready for a golf outing when I first saw the photo on this Academia cover:









At least in this Italian edition, the foursome of golfers/musicians has been transformed into, um...









four kinda dodgy-looking bon-bon things I'm not sure I'd eat?


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## Bwv 1080

StevehamNY said:


> View attachment 156183
> 
> 
> four kinda dodgy-looking bon-bon things I'm not sure I'd eat?


A fair metaphor for Bruch's music then?


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## StevehamNY

Bwv 1080 said:


> A fair metaphor for Bruch's music then?


Ouch!

(He said it, not me!)


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, so here. It's a little late, and probably littered with typos, grumpiness etc, but it's not my fault the vaccine disagrees with my knees, so you'll just have to put up with it._

The Cambridge Companion to the String Quartet has more to say about Marcel Proust than it has to say about Max Bruch, which seems surprising and hardly fair. But then Bruch (the second Capricorn in our survey so far), was destined from birth, if the astrologers are to be believed, to share a planetary life-path with such musical luminaries as Josef Stalin and Yoko Ono, so perhaps the less said the better.

For me, Bruch is "Kol Nidrei", a Bloch-filler found on a few thoughtful disks, that I do, sometimes, enjoy. I know there's a violin concerto, but I've never bothered with it. It's so often bundled with the Mendelssohn, which once bored me to death at a Mullova concert, or gets served up alongside one of Schumann's dull little symphonies which, for reasons, I wouldn't pay to hear. Maybe I'm just an unforgiving type but, in the revolutionary world of Liszt and Berlioz, Germany's response was as thrilling as chintz.

String quartets are something different, though, and through them even talents like Schumann and Mendelssohn can shine, so I was looking forward to this challenge. I was dimly aware Bruch had written quartets, but I'd never listened to them, so this was a challenge I was happy to rise to. Not that it's difficult. On word-count alone, I've already left Cambridge dead in the water.

Back to 1860. Or, just for fun, 1858, two years before the 2nd quartet, when Bruch finished his formal education, rounding off his formative years with an opera called "Scherz, List und Rache"*, his actual Opus 1. That was based on a second-hand libretto that had been circulating for the best part of a century and, like the handful of singspiels that preceded it, has deftly avoided the glare of posterity. After that, Bruch was released from his studies and ventured into the wild, where he started his career as a professional musician in the traditional manner, through a wide variety of short-lived and unrewarding teaching positions that would take him into the drawing rooms of the gentry where, then as now, a diligent exertion of the diplomatic arts might open the doors of concert halls, the pocket-books of patrons and any number of opportunities for the diligent marital prospector.

By 1860, the plan seemed to be working for Bruch who, judging by his catalogue, had forged some connections. Another seven opuses had gone by, including a string quartet, a piano duet, a piano trio, sixteen songs, a whole cantata and something for a church choir, which suggests a mixture of achingly-respectable private and public employment.

One such connection was a Hungarian composer, the simultaneous Comte Louis de Stanlein and Grafen Ludwig von Stanlein, a Moravian Cuirassier who'd somehow acquired titles in Hungarian, German and French, married a Nagelmaker, and acquired a Stradivarius cello. Given the Nagelmakers were (and may still be for all anyone knows) the famousest family of Belgian bankers, the uncharitable might wonder about cause and effect. But, as this is a thread that seethes with charity, I won't.

Bruch's second quartet was, unlike the first, dedicated to this Comte/Grafen. And, presumably coincidentally, Bruch's next project was to be the apparently unmemorable "Lorelei", an opera based on another second-hand libretto, reluctantly recycled from Mendelssohn (who'd unhelpfully died) by its author, who seems to have met Bruch on the urging of Stanlein, thus paving the way for Bruch's second glitteringly forgotten opera.

I don't think Bruch will have written the quartet solely as a bribe. Rather as an addition to his portfolio that, having a respectable dedication, might get more attention than his first. A quartet was likely to appeal to Stanlein, and might even get played to potential patrons. As a portfolio piece, it's very nicely crafted, with compactish movements that nicely compliment each other, demonstrating that Bruch had studied conscientiously. It's an entertaining piece, too, that sounds a lot of fun to play.

Unusually, I've been listening to a few recordings this week. The Academica does a competent job, and the Diogenes have a good go, but I think the Mannheimers make it fractionally more interesting, but there's not a lot in it, in both senses.

_*Which might be translated as "Pranks, Plots and Payback", but is usually rendered as "Joke, Cunning and Revenge", presumably to deter anyone from trying to revive it._


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Before listening to the Mannheim recording of the 2 string quartets, the only thing I'd listened by Bruch was his renowned violin concerto, a very enjoyable work for me -and many others, of course. 

I know this week's focus is his 2nd SQ, but given that the Mannheim recorded both on the same disc I listened to the first one also. I think the main thing I'm taking away from these compositions and this performance is their warmth. I'd wager that that has more to do with how they were recorded than anything else, but still it holds. In some way it's also a very soothing warmth that goes very well with the expansive nature of the 1st movement of the 2nd quartet -there are some very beautiful chords in there, and although it's much more homophonic than the first movement of the 1st quartet, I think it's better constructed- or the 2nd and 3rd movements of the first, 2 very beautiful sections.

The 2nd movement of the 2nd quartet is also quite beautiful, but a certain dramatic edge is added to it, some of it has to do with this movement being an andante and not an adagio like in the 1st quartet, but there's also a bit more nuance in the harmony, not everything's so clear. This is clearly a more ambitious work, even if the style is very similar to the 1st one. 

The 3rd movement of the 2nd fails to convince me, though. I think that here a more ambitious approach ends up coming short with that series of gestures and chords that goes through a few variations in moods and dynamics, but never says anything really.
I much prefered the natural beauty of the 1st quartet's 3rd movement, even if it wasn't anything otherwordly. 

Lastly, the 4th movement of the 2nd succeeds where the 4th of the 1st quartet failed. That is, the 1st one tried to go out in a bang, paying no mind to substance. I think Bruch rectified this in the 2nd quartet and tried to sprinkle some very pretty passages while trying to come to a hasty end. In both quartets I think this final movement works as an appendix or a continuation to the 1st movement. 

All in all these were enjoyable works for me, even with all of their shortcomings.


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## Kreisler jr

I think I prefer the first quartet (not sure, though). They are both early works and pleasant but rather lightweight although Bruch hardly changed his style in almost 60 years, the later to very late chamber works (ca. 1918) on cpo with Hoelscher et al. not so different.

Anyone who wants can keep discussing the Bruch during the weekend but lest it should be forgotten again, I'll now announce the quartet for next week (I will later on sunday or so follow it up with some intro/comments)

*J. Haydn: Quartet C major op.33 Nr. 3 "Bird"/"Vogel" Hob. III:39*

(I first wanted to go for a quartet of the composer whose conspicous absence had been remarked several weeks ago but there has not been so much Haydn in the thread, and I feel a bit less out of my depth with Haydn than with Janacek.)


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## Bwv 1080

Good choice! We did two of op 20 quartets, so this is the logical next one

so bird
Vogel
L'Oiseau
el pájaro
uccello

cant think of another common word that is so different in English, German, French, Spanish & Italian


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## Kreisler jr

oiseau and uccello are barely recognizable from avis, I think, the italian comes from a diminutive: avicula. But it is in fact strange considering how many common words for animals are so close. I think besides family and numbers some animal names are the most plausible and for laymen recognizable reconstructions of Proto-Indoeuropean. Not that I have any capacity to judge if these philologists are correct, but there are lists of such animal names and its amazing how many are recognizable if one knows a bit of Latin and modern Indoeuropean languages.
It might be because the generic term for bird is not such an important word as domestic animals.


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## SearsPoncho

Kreisler jr said:


> I think I prefer the first quartet (not sure, though). They are both early works and pleasant but rather lightweight although Bruch hardly changed his style in almost 60 years, the later to very late chamber works (ca. 1918) on cpo with Hoelscher et al. not so different.
> 
> Anyone who wants can keep discussing the Bruch during the weekend but lest it should be forgotten again, I'll now announce the quartet for next week (I will later on sunday or so follow it up with some intro/comments)
> 
> *J. Haydn: Quartet C major op.33 Nr. 3 "Bird"/"Vogel" Hob. III:39*
> 
> (I first wanted to go for a quartet of the composer whose conspicous absence had been remarked several weeks ago but there has not been so much Haydn in the thread, and I feel a bit less out of my depth with Haydn than with Janacek.)


Good choice. Can never get enough Haydn.


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## Josquin13

I found the Bruch String Quartet No. 2 to be a skilled quartet, and clearly, partly influenced by Felix Mendelssohn, but not quite as inspired, or dazzling (even though I thought the quartet all came together well in the final movement). My impression is that Bruch didn't quite have Mendelssohn's genius (or Fanny's, either--now that I know Fanny's lone SQ, thanks to this thread!). Even so, it's a very good quartet, and I'm glad to have heard it. Thanks for the introduction, Art Rock! (I listened to the Diogenes SQ, because I couldn't find the Mannheim SQ version on You Tube or Amazon prime.)

By the way, the other work by Max Bruch that has traditionally been performed on the concert stage and used to get recorded by violinists--in addition to Bruch's 'war horse' Violin Concerto No. 1--is his "Scottish" Fantasy for violin and orchestra. Violinists Salvatore Accardo and David Oistrakh have made excellent recordings of this work, if anyone's interested in exploring Bruch further:

1. Salvatore Accardo, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, conducted by Kurt Masur:














2. David Oistrakh, London Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Jascha Horenstein: 




Thanks for the recent SQ picks, everyone. They've all been great.


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## Merl

Haydn Op. 33 #3 is a good choice, Kreisler. I have my work cut out for me but it's near the end of term so n that's OK.


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## Kreisler jr

I think there must be as many or more recordings of Janacek #2 (which was one of others I was considering and the same for the rest I had in mind) and for the ones not owning a piece of music, it is easier to access well known pieces. Nobody forces you to cover all recordings


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I think there must be as many or more recordings of Janacek #2 (which was one of others I was considering and the same for the rest I had in mind) and for the ones not owning a piece of music, it is easier to access well known pieces. Nobody forces you to cover all recordings


Lol, I'm only messing. Incidentally there are around 50 recordings of the Haydn op. 33. That's nothing compared to the 70 recording of the Janacek SQ (which has been my side-project for the last few months in preparation for when someone posts it).

I have a lot of Haydn op. 33 recordings but there are a stack on YouTube to listen to. There are many fine 50s recording of this one to investigate that are mostly out of the catalogue. Btw, I like listening through all the available recordings. I'm not content anymore with just recommending the same old recordings without listening to the more obscure or less mentioned ones. That's just me - I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, lol. It's only a short quartet too so doesn't take long to listen to quite a few. I'm listening to my 1958 Janacek Quartet recording as I write (it's part of the Complete Recordings for DG set) and I've got the Kodalys and Tatrai on my radar for today. As they're both in the cd rack. I love this quartet (it's one of my fave Haydn quartets) and the preceeding Joke quartet so this will be a labour of love. Great pick, Kreisler.

Edit: here's a list of most of the recordings.


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## Kreisler jr

I have Weller, Angeles, Apponyi,Casals,Auryn with complete op.33 and 4 more of #3, ProArte, Janacek, Smetana and Jerusalem on anthologies. Which is plenty and I will not promise to listen to all of them.
The piece is probably a little behind Lark, Rider, Emperor, but still among the most recorded Haydn quartets. And it is one of my favourites, too, and my clear favourite of op.33.


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## Art Rock

Bwv 1080 said:


> Good choice! We did two of op 20 quartets, so this is the logical next one
> 
> so bird
> Vogel
> L'Oiseau
> el pájaro
> uccello
> 
> cant think of another common word that is so different in English, German, French, Spanish & Italian


A bit off-topic, but...

Butterfly
Schmetterling
Papillon
Mariposa
Farfalla

and as bonus, while bird in Dutch is vogel (as in German), butterfly is vlinder.


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## Kreisler jr

Fowl is the English cognate to vogel but I have no idea where bird comes from.


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## SearsPoncho

Kreisler jr said:


> Fowl is the English cognate to vogel but I have no idea where bird comes from.


Charlie Kelly would know. He's an expert in bird law. 
*EDIT: I just realized that unless you watch It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia, the above statement might seem a bit unusual. Where's Steve? He's the only one who gets my weird pop culture references.

As for the quartet, I guess I'm jumping the gun by a day, but I like this quirky quartet with as much humor and playfulness as a quartet can get away with. If it doesn't sound like the quartet is having fun and being naughty, it's just going to sound too square for my taste. I think Merl will have his hands full with this one because the inner movements are a bit harder to pull off and sound as convincing , compelling and fun as the first and fourth movements. It also helps if an ensemble has a great first violinist with personality to spare.


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## Merl

I listened to the *London Haydn Quartet, *the *Eyblers*, the *Kodaly* Quartet, the *Panochas*, the *Quatuor Mosaiques *and the *Festetics* before and the one that really didn't 'smile' was the London Haydn Quartet account, which I found very well played but ultimately rather joyless. Im usually not a fan of the Festetics' Haydn but they do this one much better than some of their others. I'll leave my thoughts until the end of the week but one of these I found to be a hugely enjoyable, performance full of life and vitality. There were others that impressed too.


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## Josquin13

What a great selection for the week! Haydn's Op. 33, no. 3, and the whole Op. 33 set are among my favorite quartets (by anyone).

As I recall, the performances that I've most liked of this quartet in the past (which I plan to test this week), and in some cases, for the Op. 33 set in general, are as follows,

--For a traditional modern instrument performance, with a greater (& more luscious) tonal heft from the strings: the Parkanyi Quartet (formerly the Orlando Quartet, but with a new cellist--who by the way could be brilliant in Haydn, such as in the Op. 64 SQs). Unfortunately, it's not on You Tube, as is usually the case with the Parkanyis:

http://www.pragadigitals.com/JOSEPH...RTET-op33-no3-2-5-1781-Vol-1-Parkanyi-Quartet
https://www.hraudio.net/showmusic.php?title=4617

--For a modern instrument performance, with a bit less tonal heft and a lighter, slightly more HIP feel: the Jerusalem Quartet: 




--For a lively, spunky, period instrument reading that is one of my favorites, overall, though I must admit that it took me several listens before I began to really like this performance (& their Op. 33 set): the Apponyi Quartet: 




--For a slightly more conservative but well played period instrument recording: Quatour Mosaiques: 




--For an earthier period performance: Festetics Quartet: 




--For a well played hybrid HIP performance, that is, using period bows and modern strings, which is another performance that I reach for often: Cuarteto Casals,


















I've not heard the Kodaly, Auryn, or Panocha Quartets, but have liked their Haydn elsewhere, and like Merl, I didn't overly care the London Haydn Quartet. While I'd likely be most welcome to see the Takacs Quartet and the Schuppanzigh Quartet record this work, along with the rest of the Op. 33s.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Charlie Kelly would know. He's an expert in bird law.
> *EDIT: I just realized that unless you watch It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia, the above statement might seem a bit unusual. Where's Steve? He's the only one who gets my weird pop culture references.


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## Bwv 1080

Based on Op 20 a few weeks back, just going to stick with Auryn, don’t see the need to listen to anyone else for Haydn


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


>


Ah, Steve. I can always count on you. And to think that we both have smart, well-adjusted daughters...

Back to Haydn. I have the complete Haydn from the Kodaly Quartet. It's a short work, so I decided to listen to a couple more: Auryn Quartet and a live performance from the Alban Berg Quartet. To my amazement, I found myself liking the live ABQ performance the most. They've got that impish playfulness I need in this music. I was disappointed with the Auryn, who were way too earnest and serious in the 1st movement. They're very good in the last 2 movements, and they had the spirit in the finale, but by then, it was too late for me. Again, I'm picking nits here.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Ah, Steve. I can always count on you. And to think that we both have smart, well-adjusted daughters...
> 
> Back to Haydn. I have the complete Haydn from the Kodaly Quartet. It's a short work, so I decided to listen to a couple more: Auryn Quartet and a live performance from the Alban Berg Quartet. To my amazement, I found myself liking the live ABQ performance the most. They've got that impish playfulness I need in this music. I was disappointed with the Auryn, who were way too earnest and serious in the 1st movement. They're very good in the last 2 movements, and they had the spirit in the finale, but by then, it was too late for me. Again, I'm picking nits here.


Great call on the *ABQ*, SP. That one caught me out when i played it just now. Its a joyful account that will definitely be in my final round-up. If I'm honest, I'm after playfulness and joy in the op.33 so I've just thrown out the *Coull* quartet (who rarely impress me) and dont really get to the heart of this one, either.


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## Malx

I've got a couple in the collection to start off with this week - Quatuor Mosaiques & Jerusalem Quartet, then we'll see how time goes.
Fence painting and the Euros are competing for time so I'll see if branching out is an option as the week goes in.

I am also diverted from CM and listening to Before The Flood at present - in football parlance maybe I should receive a yellow card for that!


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## Merl

I'm watching England. I expect you'll be cheering Croatia on like my brother in law, Malx.


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## Knorf

There's an off-topic thread for the Euros, so we football fans don't sully this honorable discussion with sports gibberish.
European championship Football (soccer) 2020 (2021)

I'm behind this week, will catch up. I love Haydn's Op. 33!


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## Josquin13

It should also be pointed out, for those that may not know, the Op. 33 quartets were some of W.A. Mozart's favorite works by Haydn. They are the very quartets that inspired Mozart to compose his six quartets "dedicated to Haydn".


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## FastkeinBrahms

I love this quartet but I always get bored by the slow movement. Any recommendations of recordings that manage to avoid this will be most appreciated! The Leipzigers play this wonderfully but even with them, my mind just wandered off when they played the 3rd movement.


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## Josquin13

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I love this quartet but I always get bored by the slow movement. Any recommendations of recordings that manage to avoid this will be most appreciated! The Leipzigers play this wonderfully but even with them, my mind just wandered off when they played the 3rd movement.


That's because the Adagio movement arguably only really works, as written, on period instruments. Have you heard the Apponyi Quartet? IMO, it becomes different music in their hands. You can click on the 3rd movement in the written information below the link:


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## BlackAdderLXX

Kreisler jr said:


> I think I prefer the first quartet (not sure, though). They are both early works and pleasant but rather lightweight although Bruch hardly changed his style in almost 60 years, the later to very late chamber works (ca. 1918) on cpo with Hoelscher et al. not so different.
> 
> Anyone who wants can keep discussing the Bruch during the weekend but lest it should be forgotten again, I'll now announce the quartet for next week (I will later on sunday or so follow it up with some intro/comments)
> 
> *J. Haydn: Quartet C major op.33 Nr. 3 "Bird"/"Vogel" Hob. III:39*
> 
> (I first wanted to go for a quartet of the composer whose conspicous absence had been remarked several weeks ago but there has not been so much Haydn in the thread, and I feel a bit less out of my depth with Haydn than with Janacek.)


Nice pick! Always up for Haydn!


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## HenryPenfold

Glorious music - great choice!

I seem to only have two sets of the Op.33 set:

London Haydn Quartet - Hyperion
Festetics Quartet - Arcana

Excellent period influenced performances.


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## Merl

Well its been the turn of the *Auryns*, *Apponyis*, *Angeles*, *Smetana*, *Jerusalem*, *Tatrai* and *Borodin* quartets today and although most were recommendable 2 of these accounts were outstanding. Unfortunately, the one I've had the longest on CD won't be on that final mix as it has some quite severe intonation issues and is badly recorded too. As someone mentioned earlier, the key to this quartet are those two tricky middle movements which can seem humdrum and mundane if not played with verve and enthusiasm. One of these accounts actually rescued itself with its outer movements (it was rather faceless in between). The third movement is a particular sticking point for some but the 2 recordings that rose to the top of this pile handled that movement particularly well. One of these is going to prove very hard to beat as it was simply terrific from start to finish.


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## Clloydster

This one I really like - I think I can hear birds chirping in it. My first listen was the Auryn Quartet - I'm now listening to the Jerusalem Quartet.


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## Kreisler jr

The birds might be referring both to the beginning as well as to the subsidiary theme later in the first movement. The most chirping section is probably the trills in the trio of the 2nd movement but I even saw the rondo described as cuckoo call (not sure, it's thirds and the cuckoo's call is usually a falling fourth).
I really like the slow movement, it's my favorite slow movement of op.33 (admittedly not the strongest aspect of this overall mostly comical opus). I also find the scherzo unique with the subdued sonority of the main part, almost a character piece.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Josquin13 said:


> That's because the Adagio movement arguably only really works, as written, on period instruments. Have you heard the Apponyi Quartet? IMO, it becomes different music in their hands. You can click on the 3rd movement in the written information below the link:


Yes! That worked. Absolutely beautiful phrasing and great accentuation, very subtle variations in speed and dynamics without breaking the flow.


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## StevehamNY

When I look back at the year of Covid, I'm going to think of string quartets, the form of music that I listened to during that time more than anything else. (By a mile, truly.) Whether you consider Haydn to be the literal originator (I'm hoping to get Burbage's take on this one), you can't argue with the sentiment behind his title as Father of the String Quartet.

I have 33/3 as played by the Auryn and the Mosaiques. For whatever reason, it's the Mosaiques who are doing the most for me on this one.









But even more than usual, I'm looking forward to more recommendations to check out on streaming. (Followed most likely by hitting a buy button, as this thread continues to be expensive. But no complaints!)

Thanks to Kreisler jr for picking this one!


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## Merl

Listened to a few more after the football tonight and unfortunately the *Itallianos* (1956) and *Janacek* (1958) quartets failed to woo me. Although I usually rate both highly they play this too slowly and lose a lot of the joy and forward momentum. The *Matangi* quartet (who?), on the other hand, understand how this should be played and produce a fine, flowing account. Although the *Allegri* quartet play with more conviction they appear to be in a ravine, three quarters of a mile from the microphone so on purely acoustic considerations they're out of the equation too. Naim give them a truly horrible soundstage for their recording.


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## Bwv 1080

I also have the complete Los Angeles downloaded from IDAGIO, which is worth listening to


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## Allegro Con Brio

Haydn’s string quartets please me like no other music from the Classical Period, and though as a body of work they can be homogeneous, I never fail to gain rich rewards and sheer pleasure from their alternately witty and profound imagination. This was my first time hearing Op. 33, though. I’m surprised that people are finding the slow movement to be tough to get through, as I think it is one of my favorite Haydn slow movements that I have heard. It is so endlessly lyrical and songful, almost Schubertian. Sheer creamy bliss. Actually, it’s the first movement that I struggle a bit with (maybe partially due to the inevitable inclusion of those blasted repeats which can grate on me if I find myself away from my media player and unable to skip past them) but also because the material in itself seems stretched a bit thin; it needs to be played with a sense of ease and continuity. I was surprised to see the second movement labeled “scherzo” as I thought that started with Beethoven, but it is in fact a very leisurely and delicate minuet. And the finale - what can you say, it’s classic Haydn humor in a nutshell. It reminds me of a frightened chicken running around at will - and it’s incredibly fun. Music like this always reminds me of Schoenberg’s quip that there’s “a lot of great music left to be written in C major.” Haydn always finds a lot of diversity within his formal constraints - and that’s more than enough, in my opinion, to earn him his reputation as the father of our beloved genre.

It was the Mosaïques and Auryn for me today, and I’m going to have to digress a bit from some of our knowledgable members in that I am not usually a great fan of HIP performance for post-Baroque music, and the Mosaïques fail to convince me entirely with their thin tone and oddly choppy and hesitant playing (except in the lovely Adagio). The Auryn are predictably outstanding and play with a sense of freedom but maybe there is just a touch too much “fluffy Papa Haydn” in it rather than searching out the drama? But they play this beautiful music in a beautiful way, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.


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## Bwv 1080

Interesting that the first movement begins with what now gets called a ‘monte’ schema - a parallel phrase repeated as a sequence a step higher, which was more commonly used to begin B sections than in the opening of a piece

The Scherzo / minuet & trio, for me often the most forgettable movement in classical 4-movement works, but found this one really catchy

Some tasty dissonances in the slow movement after the chorale -sounding opening phrase, particularly the maj 7 chord voiced with minor 2nd. The opening give a hint of the theme in op 76 no 3, but did not make me imagine invading Poland or France, just maybe Schleswig-Holstein

Also liked the finale - read that it was taken from a Slavonic folk dance

No fugues in op 33 whereas half of op 20 SQs had fugal final movements


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Listened to a few more after the football tonight and unfortunately the *Itallianos* (1956) and *Janacek* (1958) quartets. Although I usually rate both highly they play this too slowly and lose a lot of the joy and forward momentum. The *Matangi* quartet (who?), on the other hand, understand how this should be played and produce a fine, flowing account. Although the *Allegri* quartet play with more conviction they appear to be in a ravine, three quarters of a mile from the microphone so on purely acoustic considerations they're out of the equation too. Naim give them a truly horrible soundstage for their recording.


It's bizarre that the Janacek Quartet should play it like that, I can't make sense of it, I can't reconstruct the thinking which led to such a stiff performance. The Smetana Quartet recorded it on an Aura CD, it's old fashioned of course. And there's also Pro Arte.

Personally I can do without all these older performances, I find the music quite challenging, sort of expressively naive and one dimensional in each movement, but London Haydn begin to make it at least interesting for me. Generally I find Haydn op 33 quite elusive music.


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## Merl

It's strange, Mandryka. I listened again ( briefly) to both the Janacek and Italiano recordings just now and it wasn't just my tiredness from last night making me grumpy - they're both just OK performances (the Smetana's are better and recommendable with a far more unique sound).I I was expecting more individuality, especially from the Janacek Quartet who made some outstanding recordings. However, they weren't on their own. I played my Tatrai quartet cd yesterday, from the racks (it's been a while) and forgot that they totally mess it up with bad intonation, a duff recorded sound and a largely forgettable performance. Again I usually love the Tatrais in Haydn but their op.33 was a miss for me.


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## Kreisler jr

This is all from memory, I only listened to the historical ProArte so far.
The Janacek is nice but too slow in the first movement; I think all the other Haydn and Mozart in that DG box is better than their op.33/3. However, there is apparently some confusion about the first movement being 2/2 or 4/4 although in any case the beginning goes so obviously in half notes that this forbids too slow a tempo.
Whereas the live Smetana on Aura used to be my favorite recording of the piece, but I haven't listened to it in a long time, and I don't know their much earlier? studio recording. My modern favorite was Jerusalem but I will certainly re-listen to these two as well as Apponyi (this was my first or second cplt op.33 but I mostly found it a bit too lean and mean for my taste).


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## Malx

Having spent time this morning listening twice to the two recordings I have in my collection I have gone against my normal preference for the Quatuor Mosaiques in Haydn - I regard the 10 disc set as pretty much my mainstay of Haydn quartet recordings. I haven't ventured too far from them, finding them on the whole very satisfying, however in this particular work the Jerusalem Quartet just seem to get a bit more life into proceedings without overdoing things. The middle movements work better for me and their outer two are equally satisfying.
Now the question is - should I venture further and risk additional expense??


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## Enthusiast

I have tried quite a few (including the Casals Quartet, the Lindsays, the Buchberger and the Kodaly) but so far these are the ones that really have grabbed my attention:




























The ABQ really grabbed me from the outset and remained seemingly perfect. I also got a lot out of the Jerusalem, including their beautiful Adagio (3rd movement), and might even come to preferring it to all. The Mosaiques recording is almost dull in a couple of places but they make such a lovely sound and their slightly dull moments are balanced by some inspired ones.

I need to listen to the Casals again and, indeed, the other three that I mentioned.


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## Mandryka

Auryn anybody? (They do to Haydn op 33 what Yo Yo Ma did to Bach in his last recording -- simplify it.)

The Lindsays are worth a listen for the way they let the music breathe -- I think it is one of the more interesting performances I've heard. Lindsay and London Haydn seem to me two outstanding ones.


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## Merl

^ My thoughts almost exactly on those recordings. I think will probably come up with some very similar conclusions, Enthusiast


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## starthrower

I'm also listening to the ABQ and following along with the score.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Except for the op. 76 quartets every other Haydn SQ leaves me but with a glimpse of something, a feeling, a sensation of richness, a bit like what Allegro Con Brio says, but hardly ever too pleasing. Again as Allegro Con Brio also says, these works tend to be rather homogenous. I think this week's selection breaks that homogeneity at least a bit, especially in that beautiful 3rd movement. 
The thing is the dance like qualities of much of Haydn's output, also his minuet movements in his symphonies, do not translate well to this danceless musical world we inhabit, I think. 

Today I listened to the Apponyi Quartet recording, as was recommended by Josquin, and also to the Cuarteto Casals, whose playing I loved when I last listened to The Seven Last Words... so I decided to give them a try -also I think Harmonia Mundi is one of the best labels out there. I liked both performances, but the Apponyi were much better, they really tried to provide a lot of substance to this music, and they knew exactly where to focus their efforts.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Auryn anybody? (They do to Haydn op 33 what Yo Yo Ma did to Bach in his last recording -- simplify it.)
> 
> The Lindsays are worth a listen for the way they let the music breathe -- I think it is one of the more interesting performances I've heard. Lindsay and London Haydn seem to me two outstanding ones.


I was listening to the *Lindsays* yesterday (a lovely performance that I reacquainted myself with after a number of years) and that will definitely feature in my round up. I grabbed the Auryn cycle a while back and they finished top of my last Haydn roundup but I prefer the Lindsays in this particular quartet (up to now). However, all those *Auryn* performances are real growers. I doubt that there's many ensembles who play this quartet as capably as this but, as ACB said earlier, are they a bit too "fluffy"? Is there sufficient wit in their recording? Did it make me smile? I'm not sure. I need to go back and listen to this one again. One 'creeper' worth a listen from an unlikely source is the *Borodin* quartet's recording. But for a soupy and homogenised adagio this would be right up there. The finale made me grin from ear to ear.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Having spent time this morning listening twice to the two recordings I have in my collection I have gone against my normal preference for the Quatuor Mosaiques in Haydn - I regard the 10 disc set as pretty much my mainstay of Haydn quartet recordings. I haven't ventured too far from them, finding them on the whole very satisfying, however in this particular work the Jerusalem Quartet just seem to get a bit more life into proceedings without overdoing things. The middle movements work better for me and their outer two are equally satisfying.
> Now the question is - should I venture further and risk additional expense??


Although I don't have the Mosaiques in this opus, they usually hit the spot perfectly, but having listened to the Jerusalem performance, I can't see it being bettered.


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## StevehamNY

Having streamed the Jerusalem recording today, I am now persuaded that this is the best version I've heard so far. Not for the first time, this group is a big surprise!

(I haven't covered nearly all of them yet, of course. Still waiting on Merl's recommendations!)


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## SearsPoncho

Glad to see that everyone seems to be enjoying this quartet as much as I have. I heard a few more. The Jerusalem Quartet shoots to the top of the board, alongside the Alban Berg Quartet. This Haydn is so good that I might look into purchasing their Haydn recordings, if they're available. The Janacek Quartet is slow and joyless. I thought the Kodaly Quartet was good, but I hated the mix and production, which was big and thick, with a mushy, homogenized sound. 

I'm surprised with the variety of interpretations of the outer movements. As I said earlier, I expected variety on the inner movements, but I didn't think the outer movements would lend themselves to different approaches. I was wrong.


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## Kreisler jr

Bwv 1080 said:


> Also liked the finale - read that it was taken from a Slavonic folk dance


It is supposedly a type of "Kolo", a round dance still common in Croatia and Serbia. (There is also a Kolo in Dvorak's Slavonic Dances.)



> No fugues in op 33 whereas half of op 20 SQs had fugal final movements


Michael probably told his brother that the fugues were not good enough...
Seriously, I have no problems with the fugues in op.20 but I don't think they work so well as sonata or rondo finales. The better way is found in Mozart and late Haydn is to have fugal sections within an overall more sonata-like movement.

Interestingly, Haydn used varations as finale only in op.33#5+6, never again. (A few earlier symphonies such as #31 have variation finales, though.)


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## Enthusiast

I re-listened to the Cuarteto Casals's, the Lindsays' and the Kodaly' recordings. The Casals one is a little difficult to assess as it is so different to the others and my taste may currently be over-influenced by "the norm". It is perky and a little spikey but may lack good humour so it left me a little cold. The Lindsays' is an excellent account.


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## Merl

I've blogged my list of recommended performances so if you're interested it's at the link below.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3474-haydn-string-quartet-op.html

Like many of you the Jerusalem Quartet's account blew me away. Just perfect. Wildcard of the week - the ABQ!

There's a few I wanted to talk about that some of you will be surprised either didn't get into the list or weren't as high as you may expect. Firstly, as I alluded to last night, I wanted to listen to the Auryns again this morning (and did so) but it's still not special enough (although easily recommendable). The problem is this quartet really needs to smile and for once the Auryns don't achieve that. Their playing is, as expected, beautiful but I found myself losing interest as its quite a serious performance. Similarly the Leipzigers disappointed me in the middle movements which are a bit 'Papa Haydn' for me.

Another I'd like to mention is the Dorics. A certain infamous critic (who hates new British Quartets and especially the Dorics) loves to crap on Doric recordings and some of their recordings do have their faults occasionally as they tend to often go for the drama. Whilst that's slightly evident here you can tell this ensemble clearly love this quartet and they are trying to do something new with this music so if you can live with a bit of artistic license you will probably love their account. It is quite different. Strangely many reviewers feel the same about this recording as me (positive) but a few rate it even higher and think its a cracker. It seems that the ClassicsToday very negative review is the only bad one of this on the net. The finale, btw, is as quick as the Melos Quartet and very exciting but the adagio is a bit wayward tbh. Have a listen and make your own mind up about it. You may love or hate it too

Sound quality / soundstage also had an impact. The Quatuor Mosaiques play this one very well indeed but their highly reverberant recording combined with a very lean tone tends to get a little grating here. They also make some odd choices in the inner movements that I found a little frustrating and ruin the flow. It's still a fine, recommendable performance (it's loved by many critics) but the Apponyis do something similar with way better tone and cracking, lively and dynamically less schizophrenic phrasing. If you're unsure check out the Mosaiques and Apponyi in the adagio. The Apponyis absolutely shine whilst the Mosaiques get a little bogged down.


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## Kreisler jr

SearsPoncho said:


> Glad to see that everyone seems to be enjoying this quartet as much as I have. I heard a few more. The Jerusalem Quartet shoots to the top of the board, alongside the Alban Berg Quartet. This Haydn is so good that I might look into purchasing their Haydn recordings, if they're available.


There is a box/trio with op.33#3, 76, 77 which is all the ABQ recorded for EMI. And there is an older recording of Rider and Emperor from the early 1970s, one of their first LPs, that's it, I believe. (I think they made some kind of deal with Telefunken that they'd do one LP with popular works and one with their namesake Berg.) I have not heard their op.33,3 and my reaction to one half of op.76 I got a few months ago was a bit lukewarm but they were of course one of the best quartets at their time.


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## Kreisler jr

I have listened to the Auryn and Apponyi now. I was a bit disappointed by the Auryn, they are good in the last three movements but manage to make the first a bit boring, too refined (for lack of a better word), a bit too slow (but this cannot be the main thing). 

The Apponyi is far more gripping in the first movement where they excel, among other things by bringing out the many exchanges, also in subsidiary voices and they really get the folksy character of the second theme. They also manage to bring out the contrast of the subdued, hushed sotto voce scherzo and chirping trio very well. I cannot quite share the enthusiasm expressed by others wrt their slow movement. It's a tiny bit too fast for my taste and I cannot escape my slight dislike for their harsh HIP tone in that movement. But overall I found it considerably more captivating than the Auryn.


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## SearsPoncho

Kreisler jr said:


> There is a box/trio with op.33#3, 76, 77 which is all the ABQ recorded for EMI. And there is an older recording of Rider and Emperor from the early 1970s, one of their first LPs, that's it, I believe. (I think they made some kind of deal with Telefunken that they'd do one LP with popular works and one with their namesake Berg.) I have not heard their op.33,3 and my reaction to one half of op.76 I got a few months ago was a bit lukewarm but they were of course one of the best quartets at their time.


Actually, I meant the Jerusalem Quartet. Their performance is so good that I want more.

I believe I might have commented on the Auryn previously, but it's an unsmiling, serious performance. Not expressive in the "fun" first movement. It almost sounds like they're about to break out into Schubert's Rosamunde Quartet. Weird.


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## StevehamNY

It's early for this, but I'm getting on a plane tomorrow morning, won't be back until next week...

I think this Buchberger cover is pitch-perfect in the totality of its visual design:









Meanwhile, I can't help wondering what we're supposed to get out this barely discernable image of the Matangis gazing at either the moon or possibly a train bearing down on them:









And finally, I didn't know that Haydn's music inspired such straight-up fall-on-your-*** drunkeness!









(Wow. I actually typed "a s s" and it replaced the word with asterisks?)


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I have listened to the Auryn and Apponyi now. I was a bit disappointed by the Auryn, they are good in the last three movements but manage to make the first a bit boring, too refined (for lack of a better word), a bit too slow (but this cannot be the main thing).
> 
> The Apponyi is far more gripping in the first movement where they excel, among other things by bringing out the many exchanges, also in subsidiary voices and they really get the folksy character of the second theme. They also manage to bring out the contrast of the subdued, hushed sotto voce scherzo and chirping trio very well. I cannot quite share the enthusiasm expressed by others wrt their slow movement. It's a tiny bit too fast for my taste and I cannot escape my slight dislike for their harsh HIP tone in that movement. But overall I found it considerably more captivating than the Auryn.


Just a shame that Aponyi use a dentist's drill instead of a first violin


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Just a shame that Aponyi use a dentist's drill instead of a first violin


Hahaha. I've missed this, Mandryka. :lol:


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## Kreisler jr

SearsPoncho said:


> Actually, I meant the Jerusalem Quartet. Their performance is so good that I want more.


I am not sure about current availability but they had two great Haydn recitals on harmonia mundi: op.64#5, 77#1, 76#2 and 20#5, 33#3, 76#5. It's been a long time I have listened to them but I loved them when I got them briefly after they came out. There is also a 76#4 on one of their first (I have it as BBC mag) discs with DSCH #8 and Beethoven 18#6.


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## Allegro Con Brio

That Apponyi recording is a real ear-opener! Thanks for posting it, Josquin. There is a real freshness and snap to how they handle things, much more flowing and dramatic and with more attractive tone than the Mosaïques IMO. I love that they take the second movement at an actual dance pace (unlike, say, the Lindsays, who play the Allegretto scherzo substantially slower than the Adagio third movement - a bizarre choice to me), and their bird trills in the trio are a delight. Though their Adagio is a tick too fast for me, it comes across as more searching and Romantic. For me, a good HIP performance should challenge your preconceptions about how the music should go - and this was successful in that regard.

Regarding that Lindsay recording, I unfortunately found it not to my taste. Like the Mosaïques, they seem to underplay a lot of it in an effort to create contrast, and I don’t find their basic sound that appealing. Love their Beethoven, but they just seem to miss the organic winsomeness and, for lack of a better term, “smiliness” that Haydn needs. Another one I sampled was the Janacek from the DG collection, and I couldn’t help thinking that I’d come across one I knew would rub Merl the wrong way Wiry old sound, eccentrically slow tempi, perhaps some intonation problems - but it kind of works in its own unique way. 

Overall, this probably wouldn’t be among my upper echelon of Haydn quartets, but it’s the kind of music that is easily conducive to various interpretations and made for a lovely, none-too-weighty week of listening.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> .... Another one I sampled was the Janacek from the DG collection, and I couldn't help thinking that I'd come across one I knew would rub Merl the wrong way Wiry old sound, eccentrically slow tempi, perhaps some intonation problems - but it kind of works in its own unique way.
> 
> .


ACB, I didn't mind the older sound (some of the Janacek's older recordings can be a little wiry but sometimes that sound suits the music) and I can live with a little dodgy intonation. As you know, I have a lot of time for most Janacek quartet recordings and they have come up trumps for me on many SQs and finished near, or at, the top. However, as you point out, they play this one far too slowly and deliberately and lose the momentum and this killed this performance stone dead, for me.

In the Bird quartet I listen for a few things in particular, especially relating to the outer movements. In the first movement I like the first violin to exhibit different colours and tones and the ensemble playing to have lots of shifts of dynamics or the first movement comes across as very pretty but not engaging enough (this was my biggest problem with the Auryn recording and what sold the Jerusalem account to me). The 3rd movement needs personality and a bit of vite to stop it becoming dull but the finale needs fire and I should almost hear those birds chirrupping. . Each instrument should skip and dance. The Borodins manage this movement brilliantly (but hey let down a little in the adagio) and, as its such a short movement, its got to hit hard (the Kodalys do this very well too - in fact their whole performance is growing on me). Great choice this week, Kreisler. I hadn't played this quartet in quite some time.


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## Burbage

It's Friday, so there's this:

It’s 1781 and a composer sits, as sunshine streams through a fly-blown window, puzzling over the sepia scribblings that will become his Opus 33, the latest product of a one-man string-quartet factory who, barring the Moravian Richter, had practically invented the medium. And, arguably, Richter didn’t count. He’d written six, more-or-less all the same, and then given up, almost twenty-five years ago. Where was the innovation in that? Where was the industry? Compared with the dozens already under this composer’s belt, and the dozens bound to come, Richter’s efforts were those of a workshy dilletante. As for Mozart, although the little upstart had churned out an indifferent baker’s dozen, he’d done none for nearly a decade, writing mostly for those new-fangled boxes of hammers whose narcissistic owners didn’t need friends to play with. These quartets, emerging scratchily from paper and ink, are something entirely new. Especially this one, the third of the set, which is shaping up very nicely. There’s a nice tuneful movement to start with, with plenty of pleasant harmonising, some lovely chirpy lines for the first violin, and the cello’s gets a little earthy, and overdue, prominence, a great improvement on the work of some we might mention, especially as cellists might be customers, too (violists, like other species of dark matter, don’t make purchasing decisions). And, to finish, there’s a short and merry Presto. The sunshine, however, is Spanish, and so there’s nothing in between. 

The weary crow would have to flap for nearly two million yards, along the Alps and across them, to reach Haydn, who is buried in a palace and working on a similar task, between symphonies. But symphonies can wait. A symphony, after all, is just a quartet spoilt with toots and whistles and, though nice showcases for his patrons, they’re not where the the real money lies. The real money’s in the pockets of the drawing-room owning classes, the bored amateurs whose need for entertainment is limitless, a need that Haydn’s new contract allows him to satisfy. Unlike Boccherini, he has an eager publisher, waiting to turn his scribbles into so many pennies a sheet. Which may be why Haydn opts to construct four movements for every piece.

The two composers are strangers, but they know of each other, up to a point. As 1781 trickles by, Boccherini writes to Artaria, Haydn’s publisher, to ask them to pass on a few words of respect and admiration, should a “Mr Giusseppe Haydn” be on their books. They do so and Haydn requests Boccherini’s address. And continues to do until, eighteen months later, he gives up asking and tells them to pass on his compliments instead. There’s no evidence that they ever did, though, and that seems to be as far as their happy friendship ever got. If it’s not the Alps, it’s the publishers. They were to be united in one respect, though, that of being panned together by the critics, one of whom would describe Haydn and Boccherini as “wild warblers in the woods”, compared with proper composers like Handel; a panning that doubtless boosted sales.

But as I’ve surveyed the motives of the flippant and mercenary Haydn once already, I thought I’d attempt some Comparative Listening instead, after the manner of our Senior Members.

As we know from the dessicated chortles of the liner-note industry, Haydn is chiefly celebrated for his dedication to the musical dad joke. It is an admirable approach, albeit one prone to wear thin, even without the repeats. But, given where Haydn stands in history, I guess he does as well as can be expected with the tools available. Sturm and Drang were a decade behind him, Strum and Twang over a century ahead, so all he had was the classical style and the dad joke. He was where he was. So I bore that charitably in mind as I lined up four recordings and prepared to be tickled. The results are as follows:

1. Allegro moderato: If tempo is a matter of judgement, nobody owns their keep here. Of the four I listened to, there’s just a few seconds in it. It’s the playing of the herd, bar the ornaments on bar 95, which two choose to do, one of them elegantly.
2. Scherzando allegretto: If a mislabelled dirge is the height of musical comedy, not every appreciate the prank, though they can’t get round the trio being also a duo. Very funny.
3. Adagio ma non troppo. One group makes a proper Sunday afternoon of this, so it feels like watching the ducks rather than waiting for a sermon to finish. Others, not so much.
4. Rondo. Presto. Some play this like mountain goats, but others inspire feelings less of excitement than of concern.

So that’s it. The Apponyi’s are disgraceful show-offs, unsubtly prodding their sotto-voce sforzandi and repeating the repeats in the repeat in their three-minute presto, as if making some sort of point. The London Haydn Quartet are dutifully dry, but at least get the seating plan right. The Mosaiques are reliable but dusty, and the Doric String Quartet are delightful.


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## SearsPoncho

I always enjoy reading Burbage's weekly summaries, which provide a good mix of historical context and humor, and this week's entry might be my favorite. As a hack, amateur pianist, I loved the hilarious and accurate portrayal of pianists and their instruments. Burb even managed to sneak in a dad joke before Father's Day weekend in the U.S. Well done.

Because of the brevity of this week's excellent choice, I've been doing a fair amount of comparative listening, which is unusual because I usually concentrate on the music and leave the comparisons to others, who do a much better job than I possibly could. I believe this quartet and the rest of the Op. 33 set was an important landmark in the evolution of the classical string quartet. The fact that this Opus inspired Mozart to write his 6 "Haydn" quartets, arguably Mozart's best contribution to the genre, is enough to cement the significance and legacy of this quartet. However, in typical Haydn fashion, he not only introduced a new genre, at least as it would be known from that point going forward, but subjected it to a process of evolution which ultimately would yield a blueprint that all other composers would embrace for centuries, or, at least, be forced to reckon with before rejecting and striking out on their own avant-garde musings. In this quartet we have the further democratization of the quartet, with all instruments, including the cello, having a go at the thematic material, in exposition and development. Of course, Beethoven must have been taking notes, and in due time, Beethoven would have the audacity to have the cello and viola introduce and carry big tunes. For me, the Op. 76 quartets of Haydn occupy the summit of the classical-era string quartet universe prior to Beethoven's revolutionary contributions (arguably Romantic music, or the "bridge" to Romanticism), and are probably the most perfect examples of late classical period aesthetics conveyed by four stringed instruments. The Op. 33 quartets, particularly #3, played a significant role in Haydn's evolution to Op. 76, and for that reason, the Op. 33, #3 string quartet is an essential work in the canon, and mandatory listening for any music-lover.

Oh, one more thing: I love Burbage's swipe at the liner-notes industry. I occasionally read enlightening liner-notes, but most of them are rubbish, or not worth reading.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Burbage said:


> A symphony, after all, is just a quartet spoilt with toots and whistles...


Quote of the day.

Next week's choice goes to *allaroundmusicenthusiast*, then, pending any more nominators, we are back to myself and the top of the order. This has been the longest of the three rounds, and it's so delightful to see such a proliferation of members routinely posting in this thread! 16 months on and we just keep growing...


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## Kreisler jr

First, I want to thank all participants for the very lively comments and discussion. I am happy that my suggestion was so well received; one never really knows (and I had browsed a little but of course not read the complete thread).

Jerusalem Quartet
This is close to perfect; in fact I think when I first heard this disc I thought it was sometimes a bit TOO smooth and perfect for Haydn. (But re-listening now to the op.20#5 and 33#3 I was not bothered by it, there is nothing wrong with sounding effortless and beautiful.) Not as sharply etched as the Apponyi but also far more beautiful sounding, the timing and balance is just great in all movements,

Smetana Quartet (Lugano live 1982 on Aura)
They show that the first movement can be lively and full of contrasts with a moderate tempo (I think the Auryn fail at this to some extent). In a way this is an "old world" version, they play the slow movement maybe a little too romantically and the scherzo not quite as hushed as I could imagine, but it is impossible for me not to love it as their love for the music seems so obvious.

Cuarteto Casals
They are as lean as and faster than the Apponyi but with modern instruments and the sound is not quite as wiry. It's hard to avoid similes like razor or laser when describing their playing. Like their playing I have been a bit on the edge wrt this set since I got (I think I only grabbed it when it got really cheap not directly when it came out around the anniversary 2009.) I think they are too fast and light in the first movement (and also a bit mannered). It's all drive but little charm, rather cold despite the precision and transparency (Beethoven's op.59/3 would probably work better played in such fashion). The second movement is well characterized but also a bit mannered. Surprisingly, I found that despite prevailing "coolness" their "detailed" approach works quite well in the slow movement. Even if the finale is again more drive than charm it works better for me here than in the first movement. Overall a highly proficient and certainly not routine interpretation, very modern but more to appreciate and admire than to love.

So of the ones I heard (Pro Arte, *Smetana*, Auryn,* Jerusalem*, Casals) the old favorites prevailed. Casals is interesting but a bit extreme (in a way I am not sure that it benefits the music) the Auryn slightly disappointing, the Pro Arte mostly of historical interest (nice, but I don't think all that special, however I am not anything like Tully Potter, so I certainly lack all sorts of knowledge and appreciation of subtleties of historic string (quartet) playing).

I'd have three more recordings I have not listened to (Weller, Angeles, Janacek), maybe I'll do one more during the weekend, maybe not. One shouldn't overdo although I am not tired of the piece. Great pick!


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Quote of the day.
> 
> Next week's choice goes to *allaroundmusicenthusiast*, then, pending any more nominators, we are back to myself and the top of the order. This has been the longest of the three rounds, and it's so delightful to see such a proliferation of members routinely posting in this thread! 16 months on and we just keep growing...


Oh is it my turn already?? I thought it was next week! Anyways, now I have to think of something. Could you provide me a list of all the quartets already selected? Thanks!


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## Art Rock

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Oh is it my turn already?? I thought it was next week! Anyways, now I have to think of something. Could you provide me a list of all the quartets already selected? Thanks!


See post 1.............


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Ok, so for this week's selection I bring you Mauricio Kagel's first two SQs. I'm choosing two pieces because of the following reasons: they were written in the same period from 1965 to 1967; they're quite short, both are 10 minutes long; and finally because they have a lot in common, they're quite dark and somber pieces, the instruments are rarely played in the traditional manner, and despite their darkness there's a certain humour to them, as it happens with many Kagel pieces, and they're also quite theatrical, another characteristic trait of Kagel's. 

These two are some of the most original SQs I've ever heard, even if their effect on me has somewhat diminished over time. I was blown away the first time I listened to them. 

As far as I know there are two recordings available, one by the Arditti Quartet and another one -a video recording- by the Quatuor Bozzini. The Arditti's recording is paired with a small but very beautiful, almost debussian in some way, work called Pan for SQ and piccolo flute, and also with Kagel's third quartet. You can also listen to those if you're interested, they're very different from the two other works, both written in the mid-80's. Kagel's third quartet is longer (almost 40 minutes long), and, even if it's still quite original, there's a clearer structure, and more traditional playing. It's a delightful work, and please don't refrain from discussing it if you do end up listening to it, same goes for Pan. 

I hope you enjoy my selections!


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## Clloydster

Sorry. I watched half of the first one on YouTube with Bozzini. That was 5-7 minutes I won't get back. Am I missing something here? I'll confess to being a neophyte to classical music, but is that really considered classical music? I saw no skill required to make scraping and rattling sounds on instruments. Were they interesting new ways of using the instruments? Not for me. I could start pounding on my grill with a hammer and make unique sounds - that doesn't make me either a musician or a cook.

I'm bowing out of this week's. I'm having a much more pleasant time perusing Schubert's works - the Impromptus are wonderful.


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## Kreisler jr

Clloydster, did you try the Haydn quartet?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Clloydster said:


> Sorry. I watched half of the first one on YouTube with Bozzini. That was 5-7 minutes I won't get back. Am I missing something here? I'll confess to being a neophyte to classical music, but is that really considered classical music? I saw no skill required to make scraping and rattling sounds on instruments. Were they interesting new ways of using the instruments? Not for me. I could start pounding on my grill with a hammer and make unique sounds - that doesn't make me either a musician or a cook.
> 
> I'm bowing out of this week's. I'm having a much more pleasant time perusing Schubert's works - the Impromptus are wonderful.


Give Kagel's third a chance, it'll be much more easier to get into, it practically has no _weird stuff_ or listen to the Arditti recording without thinking about what they're doing with their instruments or over analyzing it.


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## Knorf

Could we please just focus on a single quartet? Short is not a problem.


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## Malx

Knorf said:


> Could we please just focus on a single quartet? Short is not a problem.


....Agreed.....


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I'm sorry, I'd seen previous choices of the week with two works, so given their lengths and similarities, I went for it. But if I had to choose one, i'd keep the 2nd one.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Yeah, we officialized the "one quartet per week" rule when the majority of posters expressed their preference for it. Sorry that wasn't clear! But this looks like a fascinating choice, and I'll be looking forward to encountering it.

Here's AllMusic:



> Written in 1965-67, this 10-minute work in one movement is a companion piece to the "Streichquartett I (String Quartet No. I)" by continuing to emphasize the theatre of concert performance and by employing preparations and unusual methods of playing the instruments in order to produce new sounds. In the first quartet, the cellist uses a knitting needle between the strings, and in the second the violinists employ a serrated wooden rod toward a similar purpose. Also the first violinist must play one passage with his left (fingerboard) hand in a leather glove. The quartet begins with an electronic-like tremolo effect similar to the first Quartet. Scratchy and plucked sounds suggest a rock or pebble-like surface. Receding into the distance from this is an arpeggio-pattern of airy harmonics "played with utmost affection". Heavy multi-toned white noise scratching, so heavy that you imagine the strings will break, produces a sound like the creaking of wood in old furniture or that of the hinges of an ancient weather-worn door. Light, pitched tremolos fly away from this texture. Gentle pizzicati in steady rhythm accompany an odd dance whose melody is made from simple sustained harmonic tones. This lasts only briefly and is followed by isolated arhythmic pizzicatos. Low rich tones on a cello are accompanied by light arpeggios. A sound like wind. Peaceful tones suddenly slide down out of their promisingly heavenly sustains. Again the nervous energies prevail until light, barely articulated tones seem to end the work. The players are requested by the score to look at each other with puzzled expressions. And then the quartet actually concludes


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## StevehamNY

allaroundmusicenthusiast, this quartet lives in the wilderness that some people are going to call "noise music" and other people are going to call "not music at all" and maybe some of the composer's directions are a little out there (knitting needle, leather glove, puzzled expressions, etc.), but personally I am going to listen to it tonight as I'm falling asleep, when my analytical filters are switched off, and I know I'll be happy to experience it! 

(At the very least, I'll have interesting dreams!)

(From Haydn to Kagel in one week. Where else are you going to find that?)


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## Clloydster

Kreisler jr said:


> Clloydster, did you try the Haydn quartet?


Yes, I've been listening to it all week - I really enjoyed it. This, though - I have a certain rule. If I experience something that I could do, particularly something outside my actual area of expertise, it doesn't impress me. I can make really decent pasta, and any Italian restaurant whose pasta is not significantly better than mine I consider to be garbage and I won't spend my money there. Along those lines, I'm fairly sure I could put a knitting needle in the strings of a cello and knock it around quite a bit. And I'm certain I can scrape a bow across violin strings, and walk out on stage in some bizarre theatrics, pretending to go one way, then another.

I'll leave this one to y'all. Not my cup of tea.


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## Clloydster

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Give Kagel's third a chance, it'll be much more easier to get into, it practically has no _weird stuff_ or listen to the Arditti recording without thinking about what they're doing with their instruments or over analyzing it.


I've hit that point in my life where more of it is behind me than before me. I'm not going to become an expert in any of this, so I'm not really much interested in the "intellectual" works that are more about teaching some kind of lesson or making a point than sounding sublime. I'm here for the beauty of music, not the brainy.


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## Merl

Lol Clloydster, I'm bowing out of this week's quartet too (I watched the Bozzini performance on YouTube and it wasn't for me) however I then listened to Kagel's more 'orthodox' 3rd Quartet and enjoyed it so thanks for the pointer. I've got one quartet to revisit from the start of this thread so I'll listen to that instead.


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## Art Rock

I watched and listened (Youtube, Quatuor Bozzini).

Normally I find that string quartets are the perfect genre to explore a modern composer. I have a number of Kagel CD's, but not the string quartets, so I went in with reasonably high expectations. It is a taped live performance, which given the additional instructions appears to be the way to do it - just listening is not the same. Still, I'm not convinced after 13 minutes. There are a few interesting moments, but the overall effect (both sound and vision) does not really work for me. An interesting choice though.


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## Mandryka

The thing about the first quartet - there's no _point de capiton_, nothing which ties together all the strands of ideas









In upholstery this is a weakness; in music it used to be a weakness. It's an idea in Lacan



> The point de capiton is thus the point in the signifying chain at which "the signifier stops the otherwise endless movement of the signification" and produces the necessary illusion of a fixed meaning.


https://nosubject.com/Point_de_capiton


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## Bwv 1080

Music for Renaissance Instruments is the Kagel piece I am most familiar with (and worth checking out - it’s. A textural piece like the SQ, using extended techniques on viols and crumhorns.

Listened to the Arditti, have not watched the Bozzini perf - as said before Kagels music has a theatrical aspect- but found it interesting enough, some cool moments, particularly with the harmonics later in the piece


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## Bwv 1080

Clloydster said:


> I've hit that point in my life where more of it is behind me than before me. I'm not going to become an expert in any of this, so I'm not really much interested in the "intellectual" works that are more about teaching some kind of lesson or making a point than sounding sublime. I'm here for the beauty of music, not the brainy.


Nothing really brainy here - the main point of interest with this music consists of timbre rather than melody or rhythm, of course anyone remains free to dislike it


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## starthrower

Too much novelty and not enough music in that first quartet. I just don't have the patience for that stuff. I do have several Kagel CDs. The orchestral CD on Col Legno contains some good music. BTW, that album is being sold by many online retailers in a reissued edition by some other label. I don't recommend it. I bought one and it was a CD-R that skipped. I'll take Merl's advice and listen to the 3rd quartet.


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## Clloydster

Bwv 1080 said:


> Nothing really brainy here - the main point of interest with this music consists of timbre rather than melody or rhythm, of course anyone remains free to dislike it


Guess I'm just more interested in melody. Schubert and Beethoven right now are more my cup of tea, but after the last selection, I clearly need to listen to more Haydn.


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## Mandryka

Actually by coincidence I’ve been listening with pleasure to a lot of Kagel over the past few months. Der Schall, Acoustica, his third trio.


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## Mandryka

Clloydster said:


> Guess I'm just more interested in melody. Schubert and Beethoven right now are more my cup of tea, but after the last selection, I clearly need to listen to more Haydn.


I think you should buy this and tell is what it's like


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## Josquin13

To my mind, what listeners often underestimate about modern & contemporary works that they've had a negative response to is how the work in question expands future composers' vocabulary of sound in an original, unique, and imaginative way. This quartet does that. Indeed, works like it have done a great deal to expand the vocabulary of sound as we move into the future, well beyond anything that composers of the past imagined or knew or might have dreamed possible. 

Which is not to say that some musical genius in the future won't come along & think, "this is sh-t, but I can do something with these unusual sounds..." I imagine they will. For example, if I were a composer and I wished to portray an inferno-like world or bedlam in a particular movement or passage, I might find aspects of this quartet useful.

Although I'm not advocating that composers throw out all of the knowledge of past traditions, either (which is what almost happened to painting in the 20th century). No, that would be a disaster (as it almost became with painting), since music would eventually become nothing more than heartless, mindless, & meaningless noise.

(At the same time, why are so many modern & contemporary composers intimated by or afraid of melody?)


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Arditti performances and, a bit in contradiction to what I said about the Gubaidulina quartet (needing at least one of the traditional ingredients melody, rythmical structure or formal development) I must say I quite enjoyed this, although Kagel obviously throws all three of the above out of the window. He does manage to create quite amazing and, surprisingly, beautiful sounds and soundscapes out of four instruments formerly known as the string quartet. 

All of this is mostly calm. I wonder whether it would work at, say allegro even presto speed. I also do not know whether I would like hours of this but, again, an unexpectedly pleasant experience.


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> (At the same time, why are so many modern & contemporary composers intimated by or afraid of melody?)


They're not. They were, but that was a long time ago. You just don't know who to listen to. Even thinking of Kagel, you could try his third piano trio, it's on spotify etc.

But this is not the right place.


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## Knorf

I don't think any composers ever have been "afraid of" of "intimidated by" melody. Rather, their creativity demanded of them to discover new contexts and forms for what melody is, or to discover it in unexpected places. 

Also, many composers deemed conventionally melodic now were not considered so in their lifetimes.

What melody is has changed over and over numerous times as creativity has evolved.


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## HenryPenfold

I'm rather orthodox in my preferences regarding musical format/medium - solo piano, string quartets and orchestral/symphonic are the main genre that float my boat. 

This is where Kagel hits the spot for me. I love all the sound-possibilities of string quartets: colour, texture, musical character, the monochrome, the simple sonic dimensions and dynamics, interesting harmonics; pizzicato, percussives, transients and so on.

It's all there in his (best?) string quartet II.

If you like the sound-world of 2 violins, a viola and a cello, there is so much in this composition for you ......


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## Allegro Con Brio

In any other area of the forum, I avoid posting on any topic that could be considered controversial by any stretch of the imagination, but as I feel confident in the cameraderie of this little thread community, despite our differences in taste, I offer my perspective in the following...

It wasn’t until last year’s pandemic listening binge that I realized what I had been missing by shunning contemporary music. The ravishing dreamscapes of Dutilleux and Takemitsu, the thorny but greatly rewarding labyrinths of Boulez and Lutoslawski, the wild invention of Ligeti, the transfigured ecstasy of Messiaen and Gubaidulina - it all has its challenges for me, but their work has opened up my ears to the possibilities of organized sound and is capable of giving me great pleasure. This thread alone has greatly aided my appreciation of these disparate idioms, and I’m grateful for that. But my admiration and enjoyment meets a harsh barrier when - and I know this is a highly subjective definition - the composer’s art seems more bent on breaking the rules and doing something “radical" for its own sake rather than working within sensible boundaries to foster innovation. Sure, Beethoven, Berlioz, Wagner, Debussy, and Schoenberg arguably all "broke the rules for its own sake” - but never did they abandon melody, harmony, counterpoint, and rhythm. They may have held grudges toward dogmatic traditionalists, but their progress always manifested itself through transformations and adaptations of respected rules. I hear this in all the contemporary composers I mentioned above, and several more. But what are we to make of a piece that, as a couple have pointed out, strips music of all familiar elements except experimentation with timbre? For me, this is not at all without merit - but I cannot consider it music.

I know that some reject the term “sound art” because any purposeful arrangement of sound ought to be considered music. Perhaps that’s correct. I’m not going to pretend to offer a definitive statement either way. But in Kagel’s 2nd quartet, I hear a composer playing around with reductionistic combinations of sound qualities, and I’ll leave it at that. Another important aspect to consider is the importance of the “performance art” elements which also seem determined to create shock factor at all possible costs. As an experiment, I decided to listen to this quartet via the Arditti recording rather than the video. Because if music doesn’t hold up as a purely auditory experience, can it work at all? As I attempted to focus in on what Kagel was offering my ears, a sudden rain shower struck without warning. The buzzes, slaps, and screeches of the recording struggled to compete with the soothing sounds drifting in through my open window. But somehow I felt that this enhanced the experience. It gave me the impression that Kagel was trying to replicate the unpredictability of natural sounds, and the white noise of the rain blended rather beautifully with what was piping through my open-back headphones. Without focusing on anything explicitly, the experience wasn’t half bad. But when I tried to hone in on the quartet sounds alone, I gained very little pleasure. After a while I realized that I was probably experiencing pleasure only from the sound of the rain.

So what lesson does this (rather lame) anecdote offer? Absolutely none; it’s just a report of a very unique listening session. But, apologist as I usually am for contemporary music’s affinity for exploiting the potential of pure sound, I cannot defend Kagel and his ilk from charges of misguided solipsism when that exploration is divorced from all sense of structure, continuity, and respect for the same “rules” that served well enough for all great composers of past centuries as well as many of Kagel’s greatest contemporaries. I firmly believe that there are open-minded audiences out there that would actively seek out concerts of Turangalila, Pli selon pli, Tout un monde lountain, even Gruppen and Berio’s Sinfonia. Those works may give us cold-water baths, but the water and the tub are familiar. Wagner and Stravinsky didn’t need to invent anything out of thin air to earn the scorn, outrage, and incomprehension of audiences at the premieres of Tristan and Le Sacre; all they had to do was radically alter (to traditionalists, “pervert”) the beloved vocabulary of music. But when the goal is to destroy these rather than revamp them? Responses are likely to be of amusement rather than shock, and it’s time for the artistic community to consider how to avoid such apparent dead ends. 

Now, some may tell me that Kagel’s quartet does, in fact, contain real melody, harmony, and rhythm; and my argument is entirely invalid. I’d love to be proven wrong. But I doubt that it will affect my, and many others’, personal enjoyment of it. There’s the spiciest take you’ll probably ever hear from me, but I just wanted to get my unique viewpoint out as a not unswerving admirer of contemporary music who has serious reservations about the viability of this kind of composition.

Addendum: I’m not interested in defending a position, just seeing peoples’ responses to this viewpoint. I don’t want to be polemical, I’m just genuinely interested to see if others have similar thought processes.


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## starthrower

After reading Henry's post I decided to give No. 2 a go. Like ACB, I opted for the audio only upload by the Arditti's. I enjoyed it more than the first quartet but I still wasn't really sold on it as a great piece of music. I then decided to watch the live performance but abandoned it half way through thinking the whole affair rather pretentious seeing a violinist playing with a heavy winter glove on his left hand.

I then went back to the Arditti's for a second listen and I have to say that I feel like the piece has structure and hangs together pretty well in its own unique way. There are some passages that do sound literally like nails on a chalkboard but I really wasn't put off by this. I in no way consider myself one of the erudite participants here and I have no idea how this type of music is notated by the composer or counted by the musicians? And as far as what it means to the composer or anyone else I wouldn't attempt a guess. But I can hear it as conversation, a dance, or the musical equivalent of some offbeat play? Maybe for some it crosses a line so to speak in to the nebulous zone but I have to say I've heard stranger pieces. Just take a listen to Steen-Andersen's 2nd quartet if you desire to venture further.


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## Bwv 1080

Watched the video and chuckling watching the 1st violin playing with a ski glove on his left hand, beginning around the 6:00 mark


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## Bwv 1080

Oh and if anyone wants to see Kagel's piece where he instructs the conductor to fake a heart attack - it begins just after 18:00


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> ..... but I have to say I've heard stranger pieces. Just take a listen to Steen-Andersen's 2nd quartet if you desire to venture further.


I did. All 15 minutes of it. I didn't like it but it was certainly a very different experience.


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## Enthusiast

Bwv 1080 said:


> Oh and if anyone wants to see Kagel's piece where he instructs the conductor to fake a heart attack - it begins just after 18:00


Brilliant! Lucky our older conductors don't have to play that piece.


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## Clloydster

Out of curiosity - I'm sure Beethoven and Mozart back in their day probably used pharmaceuticals, maybe some laudanum, from time to time. These modern works - any chance the composers were sampling from some of the newer options on the market, particularly while composing, and some of these ideas seemed much more interesting to them while so influenced? Are there any works out there, for example, where the conductor has to make a run for Doritos during one of the movements because he's supposed to fake having the munchies?


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## starthrower

That's a great idea, Clloydster! The conductor could return with Cheech & Chong in tow and everyone in the audience could have a good laugh. Isn't that what the serious art world needs! I'm sure Mozart would agree.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, I suppose, in all fairness, we can trace the “performance art” shenanigans all the way back to none other than Papa Haydn in his “Farewell Symphony,” where the musicians are instructed to gradually leave the stage in the finale.


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## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I suppose, in all fairness, we can trace the "performance art" shenanigans all the way back to none other than Papa Haydn in his "Farewell Symphony," where the musicians are instructed to gradually leave the stage in the finale.


Yes, but only if the piece was called the "Heart Attack Symphony". As someone who lost a father to heart disease and just spent the last week in the hospital with my brother who is suffering from the same, I was offended by this stupid, insensitive antic. While Haydn, on the other hand, had a sense of humor and engaged in tactful persuasion.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> Yes, but only if the piece was called the "Heart Attack Symphony". As someone who lost a father to heart disease and just spent the last week in the hospital with my brother who is suffering from the same, I was offended by this stupid, insensitive antic. While Haydn, on the other hand, had a sense of humor and engaged in tactful persuasion.


So sorry to hear that, Josquin. My condolences to you. I entirely agree with what you've written. (I had written more here but I think I've made my thought process clear already).


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## Carmina Banana

Since I joined, it seems like we have had several adventurous modern pieces that are surprisingly well liked by almost everyone. 
I guess this might be the one triggers some serious backlash? 
I was not familiar Kagel’s work but it reminds me of much of the avant-garde concerts I attended in the 70s. It is experimental, theatrical and, at times, humorous. 
I enjoyed seeing and hearing the first quartet in particular. I would absolutely love to see this in person. I guess one thing I delight in is having my expectations subverted. In classical music, it might be something like a deceptive cadence or a slow movement where a scherzo should be. In the 20th century, it is usually more fundamental.
In this piece, certain conventions like where musicians sit, how they tune their instruments, etc. are tampered with in very deliberate ways. In a larger sense, the whole concept of the string quartet recital is tampered with. It is, traditionally about hearing the music and the performers are merely there on stage as a conduit for sound. In this case, there is as much theater as there is “pure” music. Therefore, I would be less likely to listen to either of these quartet purely for the listening experience. I am reminded of Berio’s Sequenza V in which the trombonist dresses up like a clown. There is something wrong about it, but that is kind of what makes it wonderful.


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## Carmina Banana

Josquin13 said:


> Yes, but only if the piece was called the "Heart Attack Symphony". As someone who lost a father to heart disease and just spent the last week in the hospital with my brother who is suffering from the same, I was offended by this stupid, insensitive antic. While Haydn, on the other hand, had a sense of humor and engaged in tactful persuasion.


So sorry to hear. I had a similar reaction. A great mentor of mine died from a heart attack while conducting a rehearsal and it was incredibly traumatic for all of us.


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## Clloydster

I agree about faking a heart attack for theatrical value during what is supposed to be a musical performance is in poor taste. But then the very nature of what these types of performances boils down to is to provoke a reaction - shock, I suppose, although from me, it just produces a "what the . . . " reaction and I move my attention elsewhere. 

I'm not sure what the goal is, though, in using instruments in ways not intended. I have no doubt that, in the course of the evolution of musical instruments, any number of individuals already discovered all the ways to not make them sound good and dismissed them as not of value. I'm sure, for example, that numerous implements were sampled for rubbing across strings before a bow of hair was hit upon. Whether long contoured sticks were tried I couldn't say. But it seems like a conceit to think that was all new. 

I guess my ultimate thought is that music has such amazing capacity to communicate immense beauty and emotion, beyond anything that most other forms of communication can. Why take that out of it? "Because it hasn't been done before" doesn't seem to cut it for me. Just because you can do a thing, it doesn't naturally follow that you should do a thing.


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## Enthusiast

I don't know quite why this one is garnering such disdain. I played the Bozzini clip today and at the start I was thinking that I just wasn't in the right mood. I let it play on somewhat in the background while reading. Then I found myself being pulled back into it and actually sort of enjoying it. The noises replace more conventionally musical sounds in music that is otherwise not so radical. I must listen again soon but so far it isn't a piece I want to drop. Is anyone persevering with it? If not maybe we should move on?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Clloydster said:


> I guess my ultimate thought is that music has such amazing capacity to communicate immense beauty and emotion, beyond anything that most other forms of communication can. Why take that out of it? "Because it hasn't been done before" doesn't seem to cut it for me. Just because you can do a thing, it doesn't naturally follow that you should do a thing.


The thing is, why limit music to only that? You can reverse your last question and apply it to that first sentence, does it naturally follow that all music should be traditionally beautiful or only adhere to a certain standard of beauty? And even then I think I find beauty in Kagel's quartets, certainly I feel things: wonder, dread, humor, tension and release, surprise, etc etc. Sometimes all of those things together or separate create for me beauty.

EDIT: There's also something in them that cries out to me: music for music's sake, and that is, in fact, a very romantic notion

EDIT 2: Given what Enthusiast said, I'd like to make it clear that I'd have no problem if this community decided to cut this week short and let someone else choose another work, no hard feelings about that


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## Allegro Con Brio

Although I already have my choice firmly in mind for next week and can pull the trigger on it whenever you’d like me to, I certainly don’t want to rob allaroundmusicenthusiast of his time. I am planning on hearing Kagel’s 3rd quartet later today, so maybe its slightly less hostile territory would inspire more constructive discussion? I apologize if my post on the last page came across as a denunciation of your choice. It certainly wasn’t intended that way, as I thought a discussion of the underlying philosophy behind such contemporary music might be worthwhile, but perhaps such conversation deflects from the music appreciation we should be doing?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I apologize if my post on the last page came across as a denunciation of your choice. It certainly wasn't intended that way, as I thought a discussion of the underlying philosophy behind such contemporary music might be worthwhile, but perhaps such conversation deflects from the music appreciation we should be doing?


No need to apologize, no harm done. I agree 100% about not deflecting the conversation away from music apprieciation, that's what I tried to do with my last post, to me that quartet is just pure music, anyone who'd try to make a whole philosophical statement about it, beyond its obvious theatric intentions, would be just mental mast*rbation. At the end of the day there's only so much that can be said about a piece of music, and perhaps this one has run its course for the willing participants of this thread.


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## starthrower

Beauty is in the "ear of the behearer" to steal a line from the title of a Dewey Redman album. It's absurd to make demands on modern composers and expect them to churn out Mozart and Haydn like caricatures by restricting themselves to the forms of old world classics. In just four days we'll be on to another quartet so let's allow Kagel to have his week in the sun here at this little corner of TC.


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## Enthusiast

^ OK. I got some pleasure from my first hearing and will listen to it some more. It would be nice, though, if there were others suspending any disbelief they have and giving it a go, too.


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## starthrower

It's perfectly fine to not like a piece or even to criticize it but to say the composer should have written something else to accommodate my tastes and idea of beauty and what a string quartet should be is not what I consider a legitimate position on the subject.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Although I already have my choice firmly in mind for next week and can pull the trigger on it whenever you'd like me to...


Can we please have each quartet remain as the feature for a whole week, and not jump the gun on the next choice, even if it is a quartet (or two in this case) that most people dislike?

Even if the conversation dies down a little, it won't hurt to wait until Saturday or even better Sunday. And please, no earlier; I know people are always very eager to present their own choice, I totally get it, but let's show respect for the current selection and give it it's due.

I, for one, have yet to have a good chance to give either of this week's choices a listen. I'd appreciate the conversation not being prematurely stripped away.

And, just to repeat my earlier request, can we please not "cheat" and squeeze in two quartets for the same week? Just one, however short, thank you.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Knorf said:


> And, just to repeat my earlier request, can we please not "cheat" and squeeze in two quartets for the same week? Just one, however short, thank you.


Yes, yes. I didn't know that rule, and I apologize for it. After your previous request I decided on the 2nd quartet, but I cannot stop anyone from commenting on the other works I mentioned -or for that matter, on Kagel's 4th quartet 

EDIT: I also agree that for me it's no problem if the conversation isn't lively. Besides it's only tuesday, plenty of days left for people to give this work a try


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## Bwv 1080

Here is _Music for Renaissance Instruments_, much in the same vein as the SQ with no quotations of early music, just an exploration of the sound of these old instruments


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## Bulldog

I listened to Kagel's String Quartet no. 2. I'll just say that I won't be listening to it again.


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## Merl

I agree with what Knorf said. To cut a piece short from its week's course is disrespectful to the original poster, in particular, in my book. It may not float my boat (yet) but, as I said earlier, I enjoyed the 3rd Quartet when I listened the other day and I'm currently finishing ploughing through one of the first quartets on this thread (blog to come) so it's certainly not a wasted week in my book. I also enjoy reading others' thoughts about the current piece, whether positive or negative. Btw, I did try again with the current selection today. It still didn't appeal but I found it easier on the ear the 2nd time round.


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## Malx

I'm not sure I'll have time to listen to this Quartet (Kagels second) often this week too much else going on at present - however I did watch and listen to the youtube clip of the Bozzini performance a couple of times.

Now, I have a serious case of splinters in the posterior from sitting on the fence. After the first listen my initial reaction was - after the initial 2.30 of violins being dragged over a cattle grid, then a gloved hand appearing, I was surprised to see the cello player about to do a Jimi Hendrix impression but no she only blew into the cello sound box - confusion, what is going on.
Now I have listened again, listened, I didn't watch the video I let it play away to some extent in the background - and I found it much more approachable. I don't understand the structure, if it has one, but the sounds made a bit more sense.
Has Kagel done himself a disservice by adding all the visual distractions - or am I, as I often do, missing the point.

I have no real conclusion, I can't imagine this being on a playlist of mine in the future but its not the worst thing I've ever heard.
Glad to have heard it, thats what this threads all about.


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## Enthusiast

^ That was the key for me, too: letting it play in the background and then I found it calling my attention. 

I have now also listened to the Arditti recording. It is less in the face - many of the sounds are rather delicate - but I am not 100% sure yet that it works as well that way.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Malx said:


> Now I have listened again, listened, I didn't watch the video I let it play away to some extent in the background - and I found it much more approachable. I don't understand the structure, if it has one, but the sounds made a bit more sense.
> Has Kagel done himself a disservice by adding all the visual distractions - or am I, as I often do, missing the point.


That's an interesting question. I know that i too prefer listening to this quartet much more than _watching it_. I'd much rather imagine the action than seeing it in the flesh, although as with everything that happens on stage, it must certainly be quite different seeing it live than taped. I'm no theater man myself, I also prefer listening to an opera than watching a taped performance on youtube, and many tropes of the medium put me off, but I do appreciate when a piece all by itself, just the music, conveys something so vivid, something so performatic, something that ought to be captured in image too.


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Now I have listened again, listened, I didn't watch the video I let it play away to some extent in the background - and I found it much more approachable. I don't understand the structure, if it has one, but the sounds made a bit more sense.
> Has Kagel done himself a disservice by adding all the visual distractions - or am I, as I often do, missing the point.
> 
> I have no real conclusion, I can't imagine this being on a playlist of mine in the future but its not the worst thing I've ever heard.
> Glad to have heard it, thats what this threads all about.


Same here. I find the extra-music stuff distracting. I enjoy following the music.


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## Merl

BTW, here's my blog post on Haydn's op.20/3 that was covered early in this thread. Some familiar names from my other Haydn op. 20/5 blog but with a few surprises.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3476-haydn-string-quartet-op.html

Now back to Kagel.


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## SearsPoncho

If they really wanted to impress me with an avant-garde stunt, they would have each got into a separate helicopter and continued playing. Of course, Kagel would have been hit with a copyright infringement lawsuit from the estate of a German composer.


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Oh and if anyone wants to see Kagel's piece where he instructs the conductor to fake a heart attack - it begins just after 18:00


The heart attack may not be entirely gratuitous. It reminds the audience that they are in fact listening to physical human beings manipulating physical objects -- it makes that human encounter with instruments and each other absolutely the central thing for the listener's experience.

Imagine a similar thing in, let's say, the sanctus of the Missa Solemnis, where it's not unlikely that the listeners may be under the illusion that what they're experiencing is cerebral or even spiritual. It would be a sort of distancing device, the sort of thing Brecht was doing years ago in theatre. And it would transform the audience's experience of the mass -- maybe in an interesting way.


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## Mandryka

It looks to me as though Kagel wrote at least five quartets, three have been recorded by Arditti, the 5th has been recorded by Vogler. What is the 4th? 

Anyway if you listen to them it looks as though he abandoned the style of the first two fairly early on. Does anyone know why?

Indeed it would also be interesting to get people’s thoughts on what he was trying to achieve in the first two - that may be a good way of approaching listening to them.


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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> Same here. I find the extra-music stuff distracting. I enjoy following the music.


Yes, and Kagel wants you to watch the music making, like you may watch a thrilling circus act where the performers push things to their limits and take risks! For him, music is not cerebral. Following the music is not what he's about.


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## Art Rock

I gave it another try without visuals (Arditti Quartet on YT). It's not a 1:1 comparison, because as already noticed by Enthusiast, the soundscapes created by the Arditti are more delicate than the Bozzini. For me that works though. I enjoyed the work more in this rendition. Later this week I will give the Bozzini another try but now without visuals.


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## Enthusiast

I must confess that when I listened to the Bozzini clip I wasn't watching - I was hearing it in the background until it attracted more attention - so I tried it again while watching. It might have been a strong criticism to say (as several of us have) that the music is better without the "theatre" as usually in music theatre (opera etc) the visual adds to the power of the music. Now, having watched, I'm not sure the theatre put me off. But I'm not sure it added anything much either. It seemed a little dated, a little silly, but it was interesting to see how some of the sounds were made. I think that Allegro con Brio described it in one of his posts as surreal and maybe that is a helpful description.

The music made from the sounds continues to seem relatively tame to me and I even noted some enjoyable parts. It tends to be made up with sections that run out of steam and then, after the forward movement has hung for a while, to introduce a new idea that is sometimes almost melodic (or sounds like it might become melodic). Examples include the development at around 7.30, the doomy climax at around 4.15 and another development at around 12.00.

I am not sure why most of us disliked the piece so strongly as it doesn't stand out for me as particularly ugly, radical or shocking compared to other music that I (and we) have heard. But I am almost certainly missing something and am less well equipped than many of us to approach the music with understanding. It is the sort of piece that, left to myself, I might put down for six months and then return to ... an approach that often leads to me wondering what had been so difficult earlier. As it is I will probably listen once more and will then call it a day.


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## Clloydster

Goodness, it seems I stirred a hornet's nest. As I said before, not my cup of tea, and I further explained why I didn't care for it, but I never intended to imply that we should shut discussion down early and move on before the week was up. I have read everybody else's thoughts on it and tried to come to an understanding as to why others might appreciate this piece more than me. I still don't get it, and likely never will - but you go ahead and enjoy it all you want.

As to what might constitute valid criticism - like vs not like, or requiring someone to fit into a predetermined mold - again, I'm not saying that everybody should sound like Mozart. But certainly there is a lot of room to run in between Mozart and knitting needles vibrating in cello strings? I'm new to this type of discussion, and didn't realize there were valid and invalid forms of criticism. 

I still think faking the heart attack is in poor taste, regardless of the overall artistic goal. I think you can always contrive any kind of justification for something in poor taste. The human ability to rationalize is near infinite.


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Yes, and Kagel wants you to watch the music making, like you may watch a thrilling circus act where the performers push things to their limits and take risks! For him, music is not cerebral. Following the music is not what he's about.


Kagel can want, all he wants!

I enjoy the music and I think he's not good enough at the extra-musical stuff (some of it is in appallingly bad taste, like the heart attack idea).


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## starthrower

Clloydster, there is indeed an ocean of music in between Mozart and Kagel and that is where I spend most of my listening time. I am actually not much of a string quartet listener which is why I'm following this thread. It's helped me to make a few interesting discoveries. One of those is the Prokofiev No.2 which I had never thought of so I'm glad it was featured here. But no matter which piece of music is featured each week I am making an effort to check my prejudices at the door and give it a fair shot. And God bless the Arditti Quartet. They have given the world a generous amount of strange new music to explore even if we can only stomach a listen or two.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Clloydster said:


> Goodness, it seems I stirred a hornet's nest. As I said before, not my cup of tea, and I further explained why I didn't care for it, but I never intended to imply that we should shut discussion down early and move on before the week was up. I have read everybody else's thoughts on it and tried to come to an understanding as to why others might appreciate this piece more than me. I still don't get it, and likely never will - but you go ahead and enjoy it all you want.
> 
> As to what might constitute valid criticism - like vs not like, or requiring someone to fit into a predetermined mold - again, I'm not saying that everybody should sound like Mozart. But certainly there is a lot of room to run in between Mozart and knitting needles vibrating in cello strings? I'm new to this type of discussion, and didn't realize there were valid and invalid forms of criticism.
> 
> I still think faking the heart attack is in poor taste, regardless of the overall artistic goal. I think you can always contrive any kind of justification for something in poor taste. The human ability to rationalize is near infinite.


I'm not too sure if what you said is invalid criticism, so I wouldn't worry, at least I didn't think of it that way.

On the heart attack thing, I recently lost someone to heart attack (please, I'm not saying this to receive any condolences), and different people react in different ways, and I didn't say anything before because of what Josquin said and I didn't want to stir anything or to make anyone mad, but I don't think it's in poor taste to ask the conductor not to fake, but to act out a heart attack. If it were, there just wouldn't be any reason for acting in general, in my opinion, nor could someone write about a character having a heart attack, wether it be music, literature, theatre, film or painting or any other art.

But it is also of no matter here, or hardly important, because that's another piece by Kagel. We are here because of SQs, and this week Kagel's 2nd, and after a rocky start I think there were a lot of valuable comments.


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> Yes, and Kagel wants you to watch the music making, like you may watch a thrilling circus act where the performers push things to their limits and take risks! For him, music is not cerebral. Following the music is not what he's about.


Ah, so I did miss the point - if the physical 'distractions' (my term) aren't in any way cerebral then what is their purpose if not to make the listener think of the music in a different way.
I fear I am getting evermore confused!


----------



## Mandryka

Malx said:


> Ah, so I did miss the point - if the physical 'distractions' (my term) aren't in any way cerebral then what is their purpose if not to make the listener think of the music in a different way.
> I fear I am getting evermore confused!


Look, there are two ways into music. You could see it as something abstract, to be apprehended like you apprehend a novel or a poem, or even a clever and deep mathematical proof. Lots of people see music like this, it's the old fashioned university approach, musicology, where you would study the structure of a work, its influences and its sources.

Or you can see it as the real physical encounter of people making sounds. Performance. Real human beings manipulating real instruments to make real noise. Circus.

The great tradition is to focus on the gnostic, cerebral way. Kagel and his cardiac arrest is grabbing us by the throat and forcing us to see it the second, drastic way.

Lachenmann does the same in his earlier work. It's the difference between listening to Pression and watching the cellist struggle to make the unexpected noises. Try it with and without the video


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## StevehamNY

I did enjoy the experience of listening to this quartet the other night, as I drifted off to sleep with the slightly alien sounds in my head, but as I watch the Bozzini video with all of the visual extras, I couldn't help noticing from the smattering of applause at the end that they're obviously playing this piece in front of maybe a dozen people. Why does this matter? Well, aside from underscoring the idea that this quartet is probably not for everyone (or really for anyone but the most open-minded and adventurous), it brought to mind a certain musical "thought experiment:"

Say that you're one of the people in this audience, and the reason you're here is because your daughter is playing in this quartet. (It's going to sound like I'm leading the witness now, but I swear I'm not. I honestly don't think there's a right answer to what I'm about to ask...) Your daughter has been a very gifted violinist since a young age, and is now attending an upscale liberal arts college where she is a music student. You and your wife have driven up to the school and are sitting in this cozy concert room, where you're about to hear your daughter play in a college-level quartet for the first time. You fancy yourself pretty well-versed in Classical music, but you've honestly never heard of Kagel's 2nd quartet, so you have no idea what to expect...

The interesting thing about this thought experiment, for me, is that it's intentionally personalized. It's your daughter playing, someone who grew up in your house and who filled it for years with beautiful strains of Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart... You see where I'm going now, but again, I'm not trying to say that suddenly seeing her play this way-out-there piece while wearing a ski glove, at the same time the cellist picks up her instrument and attempts to blow into it, somehow discredits the music. What I'm asking you is how would you FEEL, on a gut level, if this was your daughter's debut in a string quartet?

I think I know what my wife's reaction would be, having sat next to her through the "atonal" part of the program at the local symphony hall. With much more exposure to avant-garde music, I'd like to think that my own reaction would be a little more nuanced. But I'd still have some mixed feelings, I'll freely admit. 

And not for nothing, I think my reaction would differ greatly if this was Concert #5 of the season, and I'd already gotten to hear my daughter play Beethoven's 131 in the first, then some Haydn, then some Shostakovich, then some Schubert, and now this provocative avant-garde piece for her fifth time out. It would then seem like a bracing departure from the norm and good for her! My wife, yeah... no, still wouldn't be on board with the ski glove and all that. But why would I personally be so much more accepting of this piece if I perceived it to be just a one-time departure? 

Don't forget, I would tell myself, you're the same guy who took the train to NYC to see Cecil Taylor play, not once but three times. You went to see the Henry Grimes Trio with Marilyn Crispell and Andrew Cyrille at Bard College and you snickered at all the well-dressed women who came expecting "authentic jazz" and ended up walking out in the middle of the concert clutching their pearls. You are totally at home with avant-garde music... so why are you suddenly balking at this particular quartet?

Maybe, in the end, there's some avant-garde music that I can respect and appreciate, but not ultimately love. I respect and appreciate John Cage's music, but I only love some of it. I respect and appreciate Morton Feldman's music, and I also love almost all of it, because it's not afraid to be agonizingly beautiful. (The very thing that John Cage once criticized.)

(Which reminds me: after I've gotten a few more Russians out of my system here, I'm totally busting out Uncle Morty's SQII, if somebody else hasn't already beaten me to it!)

I think I see my original point somewhere back there in the foggy distance. I was just trying to make myself commit to an honest reaction to this quartet by bringing it close to home. Am I making any sense at all?


----------



## Malx

Mandryka said:


> Look, there are two ways into music. You could see it as something abstract, to be apprehended like you apprehend a novel or a poem, or even a clever and deep mathematical proof. Lots of people see music like this, it's the old fashioned university approach, musicology, where you would study the structure of a work, its influences and its sources.
> 
> Or you can see it as the real physical encounter of people making sounds. Performance. Real human beings manipulating real instruments to make real noise. Circus.
> 
> The great tradition is to focus on the gnostic, cerebral way. Kagel and his cardiac arrest is grabbing us by the throat and forcing us to see it the second, drastic way.
> 
> Lachenmann does the same in his earlier work. It's the difference between listening to Pression and watching the cellist struggle to make the unexpected noises. Try it with and without the video


Whilst taking on board the points you make I conclude I am clearly in the camp that feels music is first and foremost a auditory art form. The visual elements in Kagel's quartet are for me distractions. 
I can see that by adding these effects the performance becomes more than just about listening but I'll have to say that I get more from the music when not concentrating on the extra-musical activity, and I suspect that is unlikely to change.


----------



## Mandryka

A purely auditory example of very physical music making is Diamanda Galas's rendition of _Swing Low Sweet Chariot_ -- the point of doing it like this is to stop us ever forgetting that the music is the result of a human being's encounter with her body.






Contrast Eric Clapton


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast

StevehamNY said:


> I did enjoy the experience of listening to this quartet the other night, as I drifted off to sleep with the slightly alien sounds in my head, but as I watch the Bozzini video with all of the visual extras, I couldn't help noticing from the smattering of applause at the end that they're obviously playing this piece in front of maybe a dozen people. Why does this matter? Well, aside from underscoring the idea that this quartet is probably not for everyone (or really for anyone but the most open-minded and adventurous), it brought to mind a certain musical "thought experiment:"
> 
> Say that you're one of the people in this audience, and the reason you're here is because your daughter is playing in this quartet. (It's going to sound like I'm leading the witness now, but I swear I'm not. I honestly don't think there's a right answer to what I'm about to ask...) Your daughter has been a very gifted violinist since a young age, and is now attending an upscale liberal arts college where she is a music student. You and your wife have driven up to the school and are sitting in this cozy concert room, where you're about to hear your daughter play in a college-level quartet for the first time. You fancy yourself pretty well-versed in Classical music, but you've honestly never heard of Kagel's 2nd quartet, so you have no idea what to expect...
> 
> The interesting thing about this thought experiment, for me, is that it's intentionally personalized. It's your daughter playing, someone who grew up in your house and who filled it for years with beautiful strains of Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart... You see where I'm going now, but again, I'm not trying to say that suddenly seeing her play this way-out-there piece while wearing a ski glove, at the same time the cellist picks up her instrument and attempts to blow into it, somehow discredits the music. What I'm asking you is how would you FEEL, on a gut level, if this was your daughter's debut in a string quartet?
> 
> I think I know what my wife's reaction would be, having sat next to her through the "atonal" part of the program at the local symphony hall. With much more exposure to avant-garde music, I'd like to think that my own reaction would be a little more nuanced. But I'd still have some mixed feelings, I'll freely admit.
> 
> And not for nothing, I think my reaction would differ greatly if this was Concert #5 of the season, and I'd already gotten to hear my daughter play Beethoven's 131 in the first, then some Haydn, then some Shostakovich, then some Schubert, and now this provocative avant-garde piece for her fifth time out. It would then seem like a bracing departure from the norm and good for her! My wife, yeah... no, still wouldn't be on board with the ski glove and all that. But why would I personally be so much more accepting of this piece if I perceived it to be just a one-time departure?
> 
> Don't forget, I would tell myself, you're the same guy who took the train to NYC to see Cecil Taylor play, not once but three times. You went to see the Henry Grimes Trio with Marilyn Crispell and Andrew Cyrille at Bard College and you snickered at all the well-dressed women who came expecting "authentic jazz" and ended up walking out in the middle of the concert clutching their pearls. You are totally at home with avant-garde music... so why are you suddenly balking at this particular quartet?
> 
> Maybe, in the end, there's some avant-garde music that I can respect and appreciate, but not ultimately love. I respect and appreciate John Cage's music, but I only love some of it. I respect and appreciate Morton Feldman's music, and I also love almost all of it, because it's not afraid to be agonizingly beautiful. (The very thing that John Cage once criticized.)
> 
> (Which reminds me: after I've gotten a few more Russians out of my system here, I'm totally busting out Uncle Morty's SQII, if somebody else hasn't already beaten me to it!)
> 
> I think I see my original point somewhere back there in the foggy distance. I was just trying to make myself commit to an honest reaction to this quartet by bringing it close to home. Am I making any sense at all?


An interesting thought experiment. I would reply to it with: is your daughter happy?

EDIT: Also, Feldman's SQII was one of my candidates, but I feared people wouldn't like it too much that my first selection took 5 1/2 hours of their time :lol:


----------



## Burbage

[


allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> At the end of the day there's only so much that can be said about a piece of music,


Happily, it's very nearly Friday, so we can see about that.

Recent digressions here (lovely to see so many of them), and discussion on a parallel thread, have tempted me to wonder what, exactly, it is we think we're doing. Though perhaps a better way of putting it was on that other thread (which I can't find now): "while I might like the sound, I have no idea what the composer is getting at".

Instinctively, I feel the answer is in the question. What the composer is getting at is you liking the sound. That is exactly what they're getting at. To put it bluntly, if you (or anyone else) likes the sound, then the composer has a chance of paying their bills without having to flip any burgers. And that, in this glittering vale of tears, is as it should be; the one joyful hope we have, as we scramble through the valley of the shadow of death, is that, when it comes to the day of reckoning, all our toil and sweat and pain and tears will not have been in vain but have helped, in some small way, to grow a tendril of warmth around a landlord's heart and, with luck, inspired our fellow-citizens with the hope of trickle-down. As the Americans teach us, not least through their approach to healthcare, only being in the black can keep us in the pink, and labour is very much its own, and often only, reward.

There are, happily, many different ways of 'liking' things, and a sound that is likeable is not necessarily pleasant. Equally, a sound that is pleasant is not necessarily likeable. The merry gurgle of flowing water may soothe the breast of the Schubertian trout-ogler but it can also fray the nerves of the ill-housed tenant, strike a ship's captain with terror and discombobulate the incontinent. There is no accounting for taste. Which is, I guess, another way of saying that there's no harm in trying.

Composers, even those allowed to wallow in the groves of musical academe, have to earn their keep, and much of that revolves around, as it did in the 1780s as much as in the 1960s, publicity. In the case of Haydn and Boccherini, publicity came in the form of Countesses who, if they were pandered to, might reliably enjoy and promote their work, both as a pastime and to display their consumption conspicuously. In the case of Kagel, it was done by writing outrageous things that other academics would write outrageous things about, without getting too genuinely upset. Kagel's niche was, in the words of Adrian Jack, his obituarist in the Guardian, "pieces in which musicians have to act and do all sorts of things they were never trained to do". There's nothing wrong with that, especially as Kagel wasn't trained to do most of what he did, either. And Kagel, like the similarly self-taught Poulenc, stuck (arguably, if you must) to frothy, inquisitive entertainments; absurdist confections that could, like much of Satie, be taken either way. The glorious advantage of the absurd is that if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, you can claim that, just like Mozart's bit of musical fun, it wasn't really meant to. Faces are saved, ink is spilt and names are made.

Absurdity can sustain a career for a while, but it's hard to sustain over a musical career (with all due respect to Zappa). Poulenc notably changed following bereavement, his work becoming more spiritual and (arguably, if you must) more listenable. Kagel, in contrast, became more doggedly polemical, which might have trapped him in a sort of humourless self-parody if he hadn't, soon after this, turned to the works of Bach, Beethoven and Brahms (among others) for material to re-purpose, adding his brand of humour to the flow of musical history, rather than attempting to invest it with the authoritarian hubris of the film-maker.

In 1965, I was tiny enough to be absurd without trying. Kagel, being older, had to work at it, deconstructing string quartets by making little plays out of them. There's almost everything in there - plenty of scraping, a pair of mallets, things that go boing - all practically the tools of the quartettist's trade by then, bar filling a fiddle with Jello and calling it Fiona. It's all great fun and very silly, but it could equally seem self-absorbed and it's really only Kagel's reputation, as a mostly harmless, playful character, that saves it.
That's because, as it stands, it really doesn't quite work. When the silly is taken too seriously, it risks becoming sinister, like the clown in a horror story. And, besides, this is (if we don't count too carefully) a string quartet and a string quartet is, without doubt or question, a string quartet. It is not like a biscuit that could be a cake, or a fruit that might be a vegetable. Although absurdists in other fields, such as Duchamp or Ionescu, could provoke, arguably usefully, debates about what constitutes a work of art or drama, a work for string quartet is a work for string quartet; the only question is how many musicians will humiliate themselves to sell tickets and the answer to that seems to be about as many as you'd think*.

Adrian Jack, writing for a British audience, suggested Kagel's lack of success in the UK (not a lack of attention, note), was because his music "demands a certain kind of intensity and deadly earnestness to make them effective, something perhaps more often found in Germany". Lazy stereotype aside, I'm not sure I agree with that. It's not that the British can't be earnest (or the Germans are especially deadly about it), as Arditti demonstrates, but that Kagel's really appealing to audiences who are tired of music and, in Britain, people who are tired of music don't go to concerts. I may be wrong, but when I lived in Germany in the '90s, it was much more common for concert-goers to subscribe to whole seasons than seems the case in London, meaning programme-builders, and composers, might feel able to take a few more risks.

Risky pieces don't always work, but we'd be lost without them - Stravinsky would be unknown to us and we'd have lost a heap of mightily absurd things (Prokofiev's "Oranges", Arnold's "Chiroptera" or Hindemith's rearrangement of Wagner**) that also happen to be joyful. Kagel, as another has hinted, was lucky enough to be able to spend his career pleasing himself, and that's fine. It doesn't please me, and that's fine, too. If it kept him happy and paid his bills, that's really all that matters.

Stravinsky earned his reputation by borrowing from the anonymous innovations of folk-music tradition and putting them in the concert hall (as Haydn did last week). Kagel, in bringing theatrical techniques to the stage wasn't, perhaps, being quite so bold, but he did transplant them into events where they weren't necessarily expected, and that's quite funny, in a way. But, then, so are butter-sculptures, which also have what's politely called niche appeal. And, finally, I wonder how much of Kagel's reputation rests on Kagel's personality. His (German) colleagues and students - and critics and promoters and broadcasters - seem to have found him 'amiable', which can't have hurt, much as Robert Simpson's reputation seems to have (arguably) endured mostly due to the esteem of his broadcasting colleagues.

I watched the Bozzinis fumble through all this and thought they hammed it up very bravely. I'm not sure I got much more from watching it twice, even less from listening to it 'blind'. On that I must beg to differ with HenryPenfold. As with the Saariaho, this (or these) is (or are) one of (or two of) those pieces that needs to be experienced in the company of a baffled audience. Half the fun is looking for cracks in the deadpan, seeing who'll dare to giggle first, and that just doesn't exist in the preserved acoustic of a recording. I'm happy to have been introduced to it but, though twenty minutes out of my lifetime doesn't seem much to ask, I think Warhol, just this once, may have been closer to the mark.

* That's right. It's four (smuggled sopranos notwithstanding).

** Hindemith's (unnumbered) String Quartet, _"Ouvertüre zum 'Fliegenden Holländer', wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt"_. We've not studied that yet so, rather than risk pinching my own thunder from a future week, I'll say no more about it.


----------



## ELbowe

Mandryka said:


> A purely auditory example of very physical music making is Diamanda Galas's rendition of _Swing Low Sweet Chariot_ -- the point of doing it like this is to stop us ever forgetting that the music is the result of a human being's encounter with her body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Contrast Eric Clapton


I'll take Diamanda Galas's rendition of Swing Low Sweet Chariot any day of the week compared to the Twickenham crowd's serenade to us as we (the opposition) left the ground fuming at the mouth and looking for the nearest pub !!!


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## StevehamNY

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> An interesting thought experiment. I would reply to it with: is your daughter happy?
> 
> EDIT: Also, Feldman's SQII was one of my candidates, but I feared people wouldn't like it too much that my first selection took 5 1/2 hours of their time :lol:


At $50,000 per semester, my daughter being happy playing her violin while wearing a ski glove does not enter into the equation.

(I'M KIDDING, OF COURSE!)

As for Feldman's SQII, I officially dare you to nominate it next time around! I have both the six-hour FLUX recording and the breakneck Ives Ensemble set which races to a finish in just under five hours.


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## Clloydster

StevehamNY said:


> At $50,000 per semester, my daughter being happy playing her violin while wearing a ski glove does not enter into the equation.
> 
> (I'M KIDDING, OF COURSE!)
> 
> As for Feldman's SQII, I officially dare you to nominate it next time around! I have both the six-hour FLUX recording and the breakneck Ives Ensemble set which races to a finish in just under five hours.


Why are you kidding? I would ask whether after she graduates she would be able to be gainfully employed and support herself. If she can do that playing a violin with a ski glove, more power to her. Although I suspect that only pays if you also can play Beethoven without a ski glove.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Brilliant again, Burbage!

I just read this at the office (during a break, of course) and scared my secretary next door by my guffaws. Brilliantly funny but also very wise. If your Friday expostulations were turned into a book, I would buy it.[SUB][SUP][/SUP][/SUB]


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## StevehamNY

From an album cover point of view, this week is notable not so much for the monochrome red cover on the Arditti recording, but for this all-time gem that demands your attention if you happen to search on Kagel:









(My favorite part might be the Deutsche Grammophon label down there in the lower righthand corner, wearing sunglasses and hiding behind a newspaper.)

Unfortunately for the purposes of this board, the Exotica composition does not feature a string quartet, but rather a sextet of musicians each equipped with at least ten exotic (i.e. "non-European") instruments that he/she has only a rudimentary briefing on how to play. If someone would like to start that board, I'd be happy to nominate this piece for the first week!


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## Merl

^ That cover is just class, Steve. I am now intrigued to hear Exotica. Off to check on Spotify.

Edit: I listened. I'll leave it at that. 

Whatever the case, I'm glad this piece was nominated this week. I've not explored much of Kagel's music in the past but I have been listening and enjoy some of it (not Exotica though). I don't want people to think I'm a cut and dried 'tonal' listener as I'm not. I listen to a lot of different styles of music and it either registers with me or doesn't. I'm just as happy listening to Black Sabbath, Beethoven or industrial music (especially Einsturzende Neubauten - who were influenced by Kagel et al) so it's never cut and dried what I will like. As I said earlier, I like Kagel's 3rd and 4th Quartets. They're interesting works and his use of different sounds works for me there, just not in this particular quartet. A friend of mine constantly says "there's only 2 types of music - music you like and music you don't like" and whilst this may be a rather simplistic view he's right. A piece either resonates with you or you find it ugly / wrong /annoying and what I'm finding as I make my way through the musical minefield of life is that there are few rules to what I will like and what I won't. What makes me appreciate Einsturzende Neubauten's 'Steh auf Berlin' as much as Tangerine Dream's 'Phaedra', Black Sabbath's 'Fairies Wear Boots', 23 Skidoo's '***** you GI', Steeleye Span's ' King Henry', Suede's 'Trash', Bartok's 3rd String Quartet' and Arvo Part's 'Tabula Rasa'? We respond to what we hear in different ways. I'm always looking for something new, something that challenges me or makes me go "ooohhhh". I've asked a few people on this site for some suggestions over the years (for example, thank you to Mandryka for introducing me to Zorn's Cat O'Nine Tails which I would have instantly dismissed as "rubbish" 10 years ago). So whilst I havent enjoyed this particular piece, this week, that's not to say I won't appreciate all of Kagel's music (as further listening has revealed). I'll admit that often I'm a melody or rhythm guy (I usually need one of those elements to enjoy a piece) and in classical music my feet have always been on romantic ground but even that's changing as I get older. I won't write much music off permanently anymore cos in the future I might get it. I'm looking forward to next week's choice, as always.


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Clloydster said:


> Although I suspect that only pays if you also can play Beethoven without a ski glove.


And that's a very sad reality, IMO. Although if you can play and go through all that, then Beethoven should mostly be a walk in the park


----------



## Clloydster

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> And that's a very sad reality, IMO. Although if you can play and go through all that, then Beethoven should mostly be a walk in the park


Why should that be sad? If you don't do something that others like, why should they pay you for it? I think implicit in all of this discussion is that a composer such as Kagel has every right to compose in any way he sees fit, and audiences have every right to dislike and not patronize his music as they see fit. The freedom works both ways. Your right to artistic freedom does not put demands on my right of deciding whether to pay you for it. You only get wealthy by producing things that enough people are interested in. Those things we like to do that don't earn us money - those are called hobbies. Or, I suppose, you trick a bunch of academics into thinking you are a genius and they pay you to sit in a university and teach the stuff. :devil:


----------



## Mandryka

StevehamNY said:


> A sextet of musicians each equipped with at least ten exotic (i.e. "non-European") instruments that he/she has only a rudimentary briefing on how to play.


What do you think of that?



StevehamNY said:


> (My favorite part might be the Deutsche Grammophon label down there in the lower righthand corner, wearing sunglasses and hiding behind a newspaper.)


DG released a lot of Kagel in the early 1970s - presumably there was plenty of acid and coke circulating in their Berlin HQ.



Merl said:


> ^, that's not to say I won't appreciate all of Kagel's music


I don't think his early music is specially successful and I don't think his later music is specially interesting. But sometimes when the mood catches me I can enjoy his stuff.

To me it's more interesting intellectually - that there was a sort of tradition - Partch, Hespos, Kagel and then on to composers who explore new ways with instruments like Cassandra Miller and Richard Barrett. It's a big thing in today's music I think, at least in some parts of the world.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

StevehamNY said:


> From an album cover point of view, this week is notable not so much for the monochrome red cover on the Arditti recording, but for this all-time gem that demands your attention if you happen to search on Kagel:
> 
> View attachment 156681
> 
> 
> (My favorite part might be the Deutsche Grammophon label down there in the lower righthand corner, wearing sunglasses and hiding behind a newspaper.)
> 
> Unfortunately for the purposes of this board, the Exotica composition does not feature a string quartet, but rather a sextet of musicians each equipped with at least ten exotic (i.e. "non-European") instruments that he/she has only a rudimentary briefing on how to play. If someone would like to start that board, I'd be happy to nominate this piece for the first week!


For a moment I thought it said "erotica" and thought, "Boy, they're sure off the mark with that cover...":lol:

On Sunday, we will have come to the end of our third round. Sticking to the same order of nominators as last time, this will be our schedule:

Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1050
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


----------



## Art Rock

Art Rock said:


> Later this week I will give the Bozzini another try but now without visuals.


Just did, and also one more time with visuals. I much prefer the Arditti.


----------



## starthrower

I've got my selection ready to go... three months from now.


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Clloydster said:


> Why should that be sad? If you don't do something that others like, why should they pay you for it? I think implicit in all of this discussion is that a composer such as Kagel has every right to compose in any way he sees fit, and audiences have every right to dislike and not patronize his music as they see fit. The freedom works both ways. Your right to artistic freedom does not put demands on my right of deciding whether to pay you for it. You only get wealthy by producing things that enough people are interested in. Those things we like to do that don't earn us money - those are called hobbies. Or, I suppose, you trick a bunch of academics into thinking you are a genius and they pay you to sit in a university and teach the stuff. :devil:


Oh, no no. I'm not saying someone should be forced to pay for this or listen to this if they don't want to. Only that in my perfect world, someone could live off of playing and writing this kind of music


----------



## starthrower

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Oh, no no. I'm not saying someone should be forced to pay for this or listen to this if they don't want to. Only that in my perfect world, someone could live off of playing and writing this kind of music


I'll pay to attend a full program of modern pieces. Unfortunately my local chamber music society will bring in a top flight quartet to play one short modern piece book ended by Mozart and Haydn. The old blue hairs in attendance will grumble about "that awful new music" and then nod off half way through the first movement of the 18th century stuff. The reason I stay home.


----------



## SearsPoncho

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Oh, no no. I'm not saying someone should be forced to pay for this or listen to this if they don't want to. Only that in my perfect world, someone could live off of playing and writing this kind of music


They do! Arditti Quartet and Kronos Quartet, among others.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> ^ That cover is just class, Steve. I am now intrigued to hear Exotica. Off to check on Spotify.
> 
> Edit: I listened. I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Whatever the case, I'm glad this piece was nominated this week. I've not explored much of Kagel's music in the past but I have been listening and enjoy some of it (not Exotica though). I don't want people to think I'm a cut and dried 'tonal' listener as I'm not. I listen to a lot of different styles of music and it either registers with me or doesn't. I'm just as happy listening to Black Sabbath, Beethoven or industrial music (especially Einsturzende Neubauten - who were influenced by Kagel et al) so it's never cut and dried what I will like. As I said earlier, I like Kagel's 3rd and 4th Quartets. They're interesting works and his use of different sounds works for me there, just not in this particular quartet. A friend of mine constantly says "there's only 2 types of music - music you like and music you don't like" and whilst this may be a rather simplistic view he's right. A piece either resonates with you or you find it ugly / wrong /annoying and what I'm finding as I make my way through the musical minefield of life is that there are few rules to what I will like and what I won't. What makes me appreciate Einsturzende Neubauten's 'Steh auf Berlin' as much as Tangerine Dream's 'Phaedra', Black Sabbath's 'Fairies Wear Boots', 23 Skidoo's '***** you GI', Steeleye Span's ' King Henry', Suede's 'Trash', Bartok's 3rd String Quartet' and Arvo Part's 'Tabula Rasa'? We respond to what we hear in different ways. I'm always looking for something new, something that challenges me or makes me go "ooohhhh". I've asked a few people on this site for some suggestions over the years (for example, thank you to Mandryka for introducing me to Zorn's Cat O'Nine Tails which I would have instantly dismissed as "rubbish" 10 years ago). So whilst I havent enjoyed this particular piece, this week, that's not to say I won't appreciate all of Kagel's music (as further listening has revealed). I'll admit that often I'm a melody or rhythm guy (I usually need one of those elements to enjoy a piece) and in classical music my feet have always been on romantic ground but even that's changing as I get older. I won't write much music off permanently anymore cos in the future I might get it. I'm looking forward to next week's choice, as always.


Fairies wear boots? Yep, I know this cause I saw it, I saw it with my own two eyes.


----------



## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For a moment I thought it said "erotica" and thought, "Boy, they're sure off the mark with that cover...":lol:
> 
> On Sunday, we will have come to the end of our third round. Sticking to the same order of nominators as last time, this will be our schedule:
> 
> Allegro Con Brio
> Mandryka
> Josquin13
> Bwv 1050
> Portamento
> sbmonty
> Merl
> Knorf
> calvinpv
> newyorkconversation
> BlackAdderLXX
> starthrower
> annaw
> SearsPoncho
> HenryPenfold
> Helgi
> Carmina Banana
> GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
> StevehamNY
> FastkeinBrahms
> Burbage
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> Art Rock
> Kreisler jr
> allaroundmusicenthusiast


Have I offended you ACB


----------



## SearsPoncho

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> And that's a very sad reality, IMO. Although if you can play and go through all that, then Beethoven should mostly be a walk in the park


While I respect your opinions and your selection for this week, I couldn't disagree more. Would anyone be able to tell if someone played a wrong note or made a mistake with Kagel? With Beethoven, much of the crowd knows nearly every note, as well as the dynamics and form or architecture of the piece. With Beethoven, intonation matters, as does technical ability and virtuosity. A quartet could completely screw up the Kagel and I doubt anyone would know, or frankly, really care. In my humble opinion, the Kagel is a walk in the park for great musicians. Beethoven's Op.131 is not.

I'm with Merl: There is good music and bad music. I've heard, seen, experienced, and even participated in much crazier avant-garde music. There's good stuff and there's rubbish. I'm a strong believer in absolute artistic freedom, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I'm also a strong believer in free speech. Kagel should have the absolute right to compose such music, but the public also should have the absolute right to call it bull excrement, if they feel that way.

Allaroundmusicenthusiast...We value your contributions to this thread. Keep it up! All of us aren't going to like everything equally, otherwise, there would be no reason to have this thread. Your choice elicited many comments, including more philosophical posts about music in general. That's a good thing. Remember, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Dvorak and Tchaikovsky have been criticized on this thread, so this is not a "we're against anything new and different" crowd. Cheers and enjoy your weekend.


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast

SearsPoncho said:


> While I respect your opinions and your selection for this week, I couldn't disagree more. Would anyone be able to tell if someone played a wrong note or made a mistake with Kagel? With Beethoven, much of the crowd knows nearly every note, as well as the dynamics and form or architecture of the piece. With Beethoven, intonation matters, as does technical ability and virtuosity. A quartet could completely screw up the Kagel and I doubt anyone would know, or frankly, really care. In my humble opinion, the Kagel is a walk in the park for great musicians. Beethoven's Op.131 is not.
> 
> I'm with Merl: There is good music and bad music. I've heard, seen, experienced, and even participated in much crazier avant-garde music. There's good stuff and there's rubbish. I'm a strong believer in absolute artistic freedom, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I'm also a strong believer in free speech. Kagel should have the absolute right to compose such music, but the public also should have the absolute right to call it bull excrement, if they feel that way.
> 
> Allaroundmusicenthusiast...We value your contributions to this thread. Keep it up! All of us aren't going to like everything equally, otherwise, there would be no reason to have this thread. Your choice elicited many comments, including more philosophical posts about music in general. That's a good thing. Remember, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Dvorak and Tchaikovsky have been criticized on this thread, so this is not a "we're against anything new and different" crowd. Cheers and enjoy your weekend.


First off, my comment was tongue in cheek! Nonetheless, I don't agree with your premise that no one would know if they didn't play it correctly. Yes, no one knows the content of the work, but a poor performance is surely discernible. The Ardittis are much better players than the Bozzonis.

And then again, I don't understand where or how I expressed that I was in any way offended by anything that anyone said in this thread about my selection. I thank you for your last paragraph, but I never expected anyone to fall in love with this quartet, and I had no problems at all with any of the criticism. And I also never meant to imply that Kagel's piece is the be all end all of avant-garde... as you say, there's a lot more crazier music out there, and I too have listened to it. And I too draw a line between what I like and what I don't like, and furthermore, between what I like and know not many others will like, and what I don't like but understand why others would indeed like it.

Looking forward to the start of the new round and to my next selection in approximately 6 months :lol:


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Malx said:


> Have I offended you ACB


Ah! Of course not! I shall fix it immediately


----------



## Carmina Banana

Clloydster said:


> Why should that be sad? If you don't do something that others like, why should they pay you for it? I think implicit in all of this discussion is that a composer such as Kagel has every right to compose in any way he sees fit, and audiences have every right to dislike and not patronize his music as they see fit. The freedom works both ways. Your right to artistic freedom does not put demands on my right of deciding whether to pay you for it. You only get wealthy by producing things that enough people are interested in. Those things we like to do that don't earn us money - those are called hobbies. Or, I suppose, you trick a bunch of academics into thinking you are a genius and they pay you to sit in a university and teach the stuff. :devil:


I agree with this. I would probably say something less cynical or just more carefully worded about academia, but I do think there is a pretty clear division between music that is generally performed and consumed in the world and what is studied in colleges and universities. 
As an example, when I was in school, Schoenberg was the first thing we pulled out when it came to the 20th century. There is a reason for that, of course. I don't deny his influence and he is a fascinating composer. However, thinking back on my live listening experiences over the years, I have never heard his music played live. I have heard lots of 20th century composers at recitals. Lots of Messiaen, Bartok, Hindemith and many others but never Schoenberg. He has some short piano compositions that would fit nicely on a program, but I have never heard them. 
The reason is simple enough. Schoenberg is really hard and audiences don't generally like it.

I'm glad a couple people have brought up the topic of composition as a livelihood. I think this was touched on when we were discussing Haydn as well. The topic is a little complicated because there is almost always two components to it: commercial gain and patronage. In Haydn's time there was the fairly new industry of music publishing and public concerts, but Haydn was mostly set for life by his situation with the Esterhazys. In modern times, a composer might get paid royalties from DG when we all flock to buy the latest recording, but chances are most of their income comes from commissions, a university position or a residency somewhere. In short, there is always a relationship with the public, but also a relationship with some sort of endowment (which probably has some sort of expectations built in to it).
I guess I am spelling out something obvious, but my point is: you can't say there is a simple mandate from the public and if a composer fails in that regard they won't make a living. You could argue that it *should* be that simple, but it certainly isn't.


----------



## Carmina Banana

SearsPoncho said:


> While I respect your opinions and your selection for this week, I couldn't disagree more. Would anyone be able to tell if someone played a wrong note or made a mistake with Kagel? With Beethoven, much of the crowd knows nearly every note, as well as the dynamics and form or architecture of the piece. With Beethoven, intonation matters, as does technical ability and virtuosity. A quartet could completely screw up the Kagel and I doubt anyone would know, or frankly, really care. In my humble opinion, the Kagel is a walk in the park for great musicians. Beethoven's Op.131 is not.
> 
> I'm with Merl: There is good music and bad music. I've heard, seen, experienced, and even participated in much crazier avant-garde music. There's good stuff and there's rubbish. I'm a strong believer in absolute artistic freedom, as long as it's not hurting anyone. I'm also a strong believer in free speech. Kagel should have the absolute right to compose such music, but the public also should have the absolute right to call it bull excrement, if they feel that way.
> 
> Allaroundmusicenthusiast...We value your contributions to this thread. Keep it up! All of us aren't going to like everything equally, otherwise, there would be no reason to have this thread. Your choice elicited many comments, including more philosophical posts about music in general. That's a good thing. Remember, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert, Dvorak and Tchaikovsky have been criticized on this thread, so this is not a "we're against anything new and different" crowd. Cheers and enjoy your weekend.


Beethoven calls for more technical knowledge than Kagel, but I think for a group that has performed a Beethoven quartet fifty times, it might be a fairly easy and comfortable gig compared to the awkward uncertainty of playing Kagel's first or second.


----------



## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For a moment I thought it said "erotica" and thought, "Boy, they're sure off the mark with that cover...":lol:


Hey, a lid for every pot, right?


----------



## Clloydster

starthrower said:


> I'll pay to attend a full program of modern pieces. Unfortunately my local chamber music society will bring in a top flight quartet to play one short modern piece book ended by Mozart and Haydn. The old blue hairs in attendance will grumble about "that awful new music" and then nod off half way through the first movement of the 18th century stuff. The reason I stay home.


Except, grumbling or not, those old blue hairs DO subsidize that modern music. They pay to hear Haydn and Mozart AND the modern piece. Maybe they grumble, but their money is still good. I think there are MORE opportunities for someone like Kagel to do what he does. You think Kagel - transported back to the early 19th century - would be anything more than penniless living on the street?


----------



## starthrower

A moot point due to the fact that we don't have time machines. But there's always been plenty of grumbling throughout history about dozens of works that are now acknowledged to be universal masterpieces. The late Nicolas Slonimsky compiled hundreds of scathing reviews into a hilarious book entitled A Lexicon Of Musical Invective. The seniors do in fact support the local chamber music society but it would be nice to see a slightly larger percentage of young people turning out for the performances. 

It's impossible to predict which pieces will become acknowledged classics in the future. The music doesn't seem to have the cultural impact it attained in the previous couple of centuries and there are few if any household names among composers these days.


----------



## Carmina Banana

Interesting that we are referring to Kagel as if he represents that crazy new music everyone is writing these days. This is music from over 50 years ago. 
In the early 19th century, it was considered adventurous programming to revive old music from 50 years ago--everyone wanted to hear the new stuff.


----------



## Clloydster

Carmina Banana said:


> Interesting that we are referring to Kagel as if he represents that crazy new music everyone is writing these days. This is music from over 50 years ago.
> In the early 19th century, it was considered adventurous programming to revive old music from 50 years ago--everyone wanted to hear the new stuff.


When discussing classical music, we are talking about a body of work that spans centuries - 50 years is practically just yesterday, in perspective.


----------



## Clloydster

starthrower said:


> A moot point due to the fact that we don't have time machines. But there's always been plenty of grumbling throughout history about dozens of works that are now acknowledged to be universal masterpieces. The late Nicolas Slonimsky compiled hundreds of scathing reviews into a hilarious book entitled A Lexicon Of Musical Invective. The seniors do in fact support the local chamber music society but it would be nice to see a slightly larger percentage of young people turning out for the performances.
> 
> It's impossible to predict which pieces will become acknowledged classics in the future. The music doesn't seem to have the cultural impact it attained in the previous couple of centuries and there are few if any household names among composers these days.


What direction the avant garde chooses to go is going to vary with time, but I think that the general affinity that the vast majority of music audiences are always going to be drawn more towards melody and rhythm, as someone on here has pointed out. It isn't a coincidence that more melodic works continue to enjoy more long-term success than non-melodic works. And, honestly, I doubt that Kagel would be that surprised that his works don't enjoy as large of popularity as other works that more easily appeal to larger audiences. Maybe we can't successfully predict what will still receive attention in the future, but melody and rhythm seem to be common themes around those that do.


----------



## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> Fairies wear boots? Yep, I know this cause I saw it, I saw it with my own two eyes.


How did he know it wasn't a midget? Important distinction, in my view.


----------



## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> From an album cover point of view, this week is notable not so much for the monochrome red cover on the Arditti recording, but for this all-time gem that demands your attention if you happen to search on Kagel:
> 
> View attachment 156681
> 
> 
> (My favorite part might be the Deutsche Grammophon label down there in the lower righthand corner, wearing sunglasses and hiding behind a newspaper.)
> 
> Unfortunately for the purposes of this board, the Exotica composition does not feature a string quartet, but rather a sextet of musicians each equipped with at least ten exotic (i.e. "non-European") instruments that he/she has only a rudimentary briefing on how to play. If someone would like to start that board, I'd be happy to nominate this piece for the first week!


Exotica is a great abstract idea, but it should have never been turned into actual music.
Tactile is fun but after a few minutes is redundant.
Kagel got away with murder, artistically. Couldn't happen now.
Having said that, The 8 Pieces Of The Wind Rose is fabulous .........


----------



## Clloydster

I honestly don't think it would take more skill - in the traditional sense - to play one of these works by Kagel, just because it requires the use of different techniques than one would normally employ for those particular instruments. If, instead of mowing a lawn the conventional way, I ask somebody to move the mower around the yard upside down, that would technically be a lot more difficult than the usual method which allows you to use the wheels to aid the movement. Were someone to be able to accomplish the feat, that would certainly be impressive, but it certainly doesn't make them a technically accomplished lawn mower. I don't think it is even the same type of skill set - Kagel's works seem more theatrical, and would be more closely related to acting and taking stage directions than musical and skillfully playing an instrument. With a Beethoven quartet, you can tell if a note is out of place or played wrong. But who would be able to tell whether the knitting needle was in the right location, and would it even matter? Any incidental sound achieved seems only to matter in terms of shape and placement - rattle the needle just so - rather than any kind of intonation being necessary. 

I don't subscribe to the notion that any sound is music, nor that any form of expression is art. I believe words should have meaning, and not be subject to infinite interpretations, thus denying them of any value, and eroding the very purpose of language. If nobody can agree what is and isn't music, why even employ the word music, and just simply call it all sound?


----------



## Burbage

Clloydster said:


> Maybe we can't successfully predict what will still receive attention in the future, but melody and rhythm seem to be common themes around those that do.


Repetition and imitation are also important factors, as they are in birds and whales. Which suggests the future rests very much on our evolutionary (as well as cultural) past.

I could (and did) write at length about this, but this probably isn't the right thread for that. So all I'll say here is that it's not for me to judge whether a noisy noise annoys a Clloydster.


----------



## Merl

Burbage said:


> So all I'll say here is that it's not for me to judge whether a noisy noise annoys a Clloydster.


This made me laugh more than it should have. :lol:


----------



## Bwv 1080

starthrower said:


> I've got my selection ready to go... three months from now.


Sorry, I'm ahead of you in the que and already picked that one, you will have to find another


----------



## starthrower

Bwv 1080 said:


> Sorry, I'm ahead of you in the que and already picked that one, you will have to find another


I'm waiting to see if that happens! I'll have to come up with an alternative just in case.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

First of all, it's not going to be The One that I brought up myself a couple months ago and which has been mentioned frequently since then. No, I really always knew it was going to be a French quartet, as for all the accomplishments of the Austro-Germans, Russians, and Czechs in small-scale music, I have always held the opinion that _les français ont le monopole de la musique de chambre_. But my choice didn't take as much waffling as I thought it would, because, even though I just heard this one for the first time about a month ago, I knew immediately that it was practically written for this thread. So, without further ado...

*César Franck's String Quartet in D Major (1889)*

Yes, well, Franck is not technically French. But for all practical purposes, this Belgian can be counted not only as the first composer from that country that we've done, but the author of the longest quartet that has graced our venerable thread thus far. Until someone nominates Feldman or an early quartet from the concision-challenged Dvořák, Franck's 45-minute (on average) work takes the temporary crown. In one way, this quartet is much more Austro-German than French since its methods of construction are so complex, but the cultivated ease with which it flows is Gallic to the core.

Let me just say, first of all, that this one is not going to be for everyone. It is a massive, sprawling unabashed kettle of late-Romantic, high-fat, chromatic cream soup - a.k.a., right in my musical "guilty pleasure" zone. So if you like your music tighter, more classically delineated; I wouldn't blame you if you didn't take a liking to it. I like many things that Franck did, but to my ears, this is undoubtedly his magnum opus (I'm not an especially great fan of the symphony, which always sounds to me like too much unrealized potential). It is conceived on a remarkably grand scale, totally centered around one initial theme that makes its way through all four movements and spins through an endless variety of transformations. In this way, I see it as the Brucknerian string quartet par excellence - in fact, there are some parts that sound absolutely uncannily like that composer. In a time of Western musical development where things were ascending to the crisis point of early German Expressionism, when the giants of the day such as Mahler and Strauss were producing titanic edifices of sound rather than intimate chamber sonorities, Franck used their language but brought his own unique genius to the table. However, I'll leave the rest of the biographical/historical context to Burbage's Friday polemic. I quote AllMusic as per my custom, then briefly offer my own reflections on the four movements:



> In his later years, César Franck is said to have undertaken an intense study of the late works of Beethoven, absorbing the master's integration of intense thematic invention and structural innovation. These elements are apparent in the String Quartet in D major, which Franck composed in 1889 (the year before his death), and which exhibits a wealth of thematic complexity and melodic expression built upon a sophisticated formal framework. Franck agonized over the first movement, which underwent several substantial renovations, before settling into its final form. It begins with a slow introductory section, with a main theme that descends in leaps, then reaches upward to descend again by steps. This idea undergoes various recastings as it quietly approaches a cadence and transforms into a foreshadow of the subsequent contrasting section. Franck's clever thematic segue, based on a stepwise-falling dotted figure, tempers the abruptness of the ensuing Allegro section. The same type of transition occurs again when falling figures in the accompaniment presage the return of the opening Poco Lento material, given this time in fugal fashion and in minor; and again, the slow material then leads -- this time much less subtly -- into a more impassioned version of the Allegro material. This iteration conveys a more conflicted character, with sudden contrasts of texture and dynamics and a series of tense modulations that spiral in ever-quieter circles toward the Poco Lento epilogue. The Scherzo second movement was apparently less taxing on the composer's creativity (few eraser marks appear in the sketches), its agile character exploiting playful motivic exchanges and melodramatic chiaroscuro moments such as in the end, where the first violin's agitated repeated notes and sudden lunges recede into hushed chromatic chords that are finally shot through with silences, then reduced to faint pizzicato flecks. The Larghetto third movement is all tune, long-limbed, and unapologetically languorous; while the angst of the first movement arose from its split personality, here the tension is entirely bound up in the violin's unfolding line, the contours of which occasionally recall familiar themes. The Finale revisits outright the major themes of the previous movements in Beethovenian fashion. Particular attention is paid to reinterpreting the melodic material from the first movement, as if trying to meld its disjunct structure by integrating its materials into a sonata form. It is with the song-like line of the Larghetto, however, that the work comes to a close.


I. The opening movement may be the one that most people will have the toughest time with. It is an unbroken arc of patient and continuous development that immediately invites parallels to the fugue of Beethoven Op. 131. There is not a lot of rhythmic or textural variation, so it's pivotal to focus on that initial motto theme and how Franck manipulates it. There's hardly even a secondary theme. It may be helpful to think of it as an experimental vision of sonata form that emphasizes organic growth rather than the traditional dramatic contrast. A passing observation - the motto theme rings very similar in my ears to the passionate first movement melody of Tchaikovsky's 6th.

II. The brief scherzo comes as a nice intermezzo, but it's strangely muted and furtive, not really seeming like the carefree break in the action that it should. The main theme is fun and mercurial, and the contrasting trio offers lyrical riffs on the motto theme.

III. The slow movement is this quartet's bread and butter, one of those times where I just sigh, close my eyes, and reflect on the sublime potential of the art we call music. Here Franck deploys his voluptuous French elegance in the smooth flow of the two achingly gorgeous melodies and their development, but here we are also reminded of the pervadent influence of Wagner on the late Romantics, the same thread that would lead to Verklärte Nacht and the Lyric Suite just a couple decades on. The music builds to a great climax and sings its heart out before expiring.

IV. Franck's finale is almost as ambitious as what Bruckner did in the finale of his 5th. It starts with a curious aping of Beethoven's 9th, with the themes of the first three movements abruptly appearing, alternated with the manic, brusque, almost atonal idea that will form the backbone of this movement. Eventually the music erupts into a series of remarkable fugues wrapped into a sonata form, with the counterpoint becoming dizzying at times, and two ideas - the motto theme and the Larghetto melody - struggling to reign. At the end, the latter rings out triumphantly in the equivalent of a brass chorale, but quickly settles down and morphs magically into the motto theme which brings us right back to the start of the journey before a brief virtuoso conclusion.

I'll just make my opinions known and say that this is possibly my favorite String Quartet from the latter half of the 19th century, and one of the true gems of the quartet repertoire. Since I discovered it about a month ago, I've been blown away. It's incomprehensible to me that it is not better known, and this might provide ground for an interesting discussion about how the "canon" is formed and what constitutes it. Because if ever a non-Beethoven or Haydn quartet nominates inclusion in "the canon," it's this one IMO. Perhaps it's just too symphonic, too big for its britches, to appeal to most, and too unwieldy to be adopted into the regular rotation of quartet groups, but even if you just listen once this week, I won't be offended (Merl, control yourself! My streaming service shows 13 recordings, but all that richness might take a toll...) In terms of sheer compositional wizardry and intellect, this is one of the most stunning achievements of chamber music, and I also happen to find it excruciatingly beautiful. Someone recently posted an article on the main forum opining that Brahms is "cursed" by his craftsmanship, which leaves no room for authentic emotions. Though I totally disagree, I understand how one could apply that philosophy to this work too. And I also sympathize with Roger Scruton's epithet of "unctuous narcissism" to describe this composer (he was talking about the Piano Quintet, but that can easily be applied here as well). But I think this quartet fits the purposes of this thread perfectly, and I think it will inspire some truly vibrant discussion.

I've heard the Juilliard and Ysaÿe recordings so far. The Juilliard seems to be the "classic" account, but I may prefer the latter for their opulent tone and willingness to indulge in old-fashioned mannerisms without disturbing the natural flow. A quartet can do little else than dig their bows into those heavenly, long-spun proto-Tristan endless melodies in the first and third movements, and just roll up their sleeves and go for broke in the finale, and hope that's enough to persuade an audience of the work's genius.


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## SearsPoncho

ACB: Love this selection! I have a recording by the Dante Quartet. I would agree with you that it has one foot in Germany and the other in France. The German foot might be a little heavier with this composer. His Piano Quintet and Violin Sonata are among the best of their genres.


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## starthrower

I'm in the middle of gorging on a blueberry pancake so I clicked on the first YT upload which is by the Petersen Quartet. Romantic music was my first love and like many others I heard the famous Symphony in D early on and I'm still somewhat of a Franck fan. But I had not listened to the string quartet. It sounds beautiful so far.


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## Merl

Good choice, ACB. This is a quartet that I enjoy but has never broken into the top 20 of my fave quartets. Perhaps repeated exposure may help. I have a few recordings and the Dante recording is currently in the car (paired with the Faure SQ). Here's a list of 24 but I probably left a few off.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Gewandhaus Quartet recording. What a gorgeous work - from start to finish! The first movement might be indebted to Beethoven by its breadth and formal ambition but it is steeped in a melodic sonority "totalement non-germanique et totalement subjugante". I do share your reticence about the famous d minor symphony, which I never quite warmed to despite trying to many times. This quartet is a marvel. Why is it not more frequently played? Despite its length I find it has great variety and the entire work has a richness in its chords I have never heard in any string quartet before. Maybe that's why members of an orchestra are particularly suited to playing this.


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## starthrower

I suppose the quartet is overshadowed by the quintet? I looked it up in my Third Ear guide and all they had to say about it was "ponderous and not on the same level as the quintet." However they did recommend the Julliard recording. I have it playing now and it sounds more like a quartet compared to the heavy organ / orchestra vibe I got from the Petersen Quartet.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Oh yes, the organ element is important to consider too. Like Bach and Bruckner, Franck made his living and reputation largely due to his mastery on the pipes and pedals, and the extended planes of harmony; the big, swooning phrases, the counterpoint, all bely that. French organ music from Widor and Vierne all the way to Messiaen is a great love of mine (I took organ lessons for a couple years and can heartily recommend the works of Jean Langlais if you dig this) so that might have influenced my choice.


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## starthrower

The opening is quite striking and listening back to back both quartets are producing that sustaining organ effect. The Petersen's are a bit more forceful in their approach compared to the Julliard Quartet.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I'm a big fan of this quartet, though I've only stuck with a recording by the Quatuor Danel. So this gives me an excuse to try out other recordings!


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## HenryPenfold

I have a CD of this work by Quatuor Joachim c/w Gustave Samazeuilh, String Quartet in D Minor on the Calliope label.

Haven't played it for a while and I can't remember a note of it so this will be an interesting reacquaintance.

Franck' symphony still hasn't landed for me, despite many years of trial. In fact last week I dug up 2 CDs to give it another go - Beecham and Klemperer, but I was left unmoved.

I am rather fond of his piano and string quintets.


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> How did he know it wasn't a midget? Important distinction, in my view.


Maybe it was a a midget who was a fairy.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina Banana said:


> Interesting that we are referring to Kagel as if he represents that crazy new music everyone is writing these days. This is music from over 50 years ago.
> In the early 19th century, it was considered adventurous programming to revive old music from 50 years ago--everyone wanted to hear the new stuff.


I know we've moved on, but I thought this post re: the Kagel was right on point. It actually seems dated. Whenever I see classical musicians get out power tools, get in a helicopter while playing, etc., I think of the era of roughly 1950-1980. It actually seems old and played out, kind of like a fad. Grunge music suffered the same fate. At the time, it killed a large swath of rock music and was thought to be the new, real, serious rock music, with a punk sensibility. Looking back, grunge seems like a brief fad that didn't have legs or offer much. Much more of a fad than disco. Ok, enough about that. Looking forward to the Franck with the Dante Quartet.


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## Enthusiast

A lovely quartet. I listened to it last week (Dante recording) and am looking forward to hearing it a good few more times this week.


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## Kreisler jr

The Franck quartet is a piece I have been struggling with for many years. I love late Beethoven and I like both the Bruckner quintet and Franck's piano quintet and violin sonata quite a bit, but so far my reaction to the Franck quartet has been lukewarm. I actually listened to the piece again earlier this year, thinking to get rid of one of my recordings but could not decide. I have the Petersen (Capriccio), Fitzwilliam (Aussie Eloquence) and the Quatuor Malibran, an ensemble from the Brussels Opera "La Monnaie" within a set of Franck's complete chamber music.
So I'll listen again and maybe the comments/discussion here will change my reaction somewhat.


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## Malx

Another quartet I have no knowledge of - what I have heard from Franck over the years hasn't made a great mark on my memory but I will approach this with an open mind if not an open wallet!


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## Merl

I'll spend a full day with this quartet tomorrow but the first one I listened to before was the *Carducci* recording. The first movement was fine but then they decide to play the scherzo at a snail's pace (that's never scherzo speed). I thought I was imagining it until i compared it to the *Petersens* and its almost 2 minutes slower! Even the slower quartets seem to clock in a minute faster than the Carduccis. In comparison to the Petersens, the Carduccis sound like theyre playing a largo. That one's straight out of the reckoning. Noooo!


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## Carmina Banana

Yippee! 
Franck has always been one of my favorites, but I don't know the string quartet. Quintet, symphony, all of the big piano works, some organ works, the violin sonata, I love it all.
With sadness, I found out a few years ago that many orchestra players hate the symphony.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'll spend a full day with this quartet tomorrow but the first one I listened to before was the *Carducci* recording. The first movement was fine but then they decide to play the scherzo at a snail's pace (that's never scherzo speed). I thought I was imagining it until i compared it to the *Petersens* and its almost 2 minutes slower! Even the slower quartets seem to clock in a minute faster than the Carduccis. In comparison to the Petersens, the Carduccis sound like theyre playing a largo. That one's straight out of the reckoning. Noooo!


I'd agree with you on the Carducci/Petersens comparison, the Petersons play with more attack and inject quite a bit of animation into the work. (I think you are right to identify the scherzo as an important episode in this work)

My Joachim recording isn't moribund, but could do with a little more life in the scherzo. The other movements are unproblematic as far as the Joachim performance goes, and in places I enjoy a reflective approach.

Btw, using Earth minutes, the Carducci are 48 seconds longer than the Petersens in the scherzo.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Let me just say, first of all, that this one is not going to be for everyone. It is a massive, sprawling unabashed kettle of late-Romantic, high-fat, chromatic cream soup - a.k.a., right in my musical "guilty pleasure" zone.


Sounds like a fattening week! But I'm looking forward to it (as I usually seem to be at the beginning of every week). I'm going to start with my old mainstays, the Danels. Maybe the shared national connection will give them a slight edge, as sometimes (but not always) happens?


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## Bwv 1080

Liking this work alot - holds my interest better than the Dvorak or Bruch. Listening to Quator Danel


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Btw, using Earth minutes, the Carducci are 48 seconds longer than the Petersens in the scherzo.


Are you sure, about that 48 seconds, between 4:29 and 6:18, Henry? :lol:

Using Earth minutes I'd say you may have miscalculated. As I said, it's almost 2 minutes slower. 

Incidentally, I agree about the *Joachim* recording. It's a decent recording but needs a bit more in the scherzo but it's still easily recommendable. I've listened to quite a few more this morning and 4 that were OK, but no more, were the *Raphael*, *Gewandhaus*, *Academica* and *Vilnius* recordings. The Vilnius recording is a missed opportunity as the recording is very good but there are intonation issues throughout this account (particularly noticeable in slower sections). Much better are the *Parrenin* quartet, whose 1957 mono recording still sounds rather good and they play which lots of character. The *WXQR* quartet, from a similar vintage, also play with a lot of character and heart but there is poor intonation in the first movement, especially, and awful scratchy sound.


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## Kreisler jr

starthrower said:


> The opening is quite striking and listening back to back both quartets are producing that sustaining organ effect. The Petersen's are a bit more forceful in their approach compared to the Julliard Quartet.


I listened to Petersen and Fitzwilliam yesterday and the Petersen get than "organ sonority" more clearly. Although not a fav, it is a fascinating and original piece. One of my problems with the dramaturgy is that the presentation of the motto at the beginning is in fact very striking and it is a bit downhill from there  It is all very well done with deriving everything from that fairly simple theme but it does not work poetically as well for me as in the symphony or the piano quintet.
The Fitzwilliams are slower, especially in the outer movements, so with >47 minutes it becomes a very expansive piece (Schubert D 887 with repeat is still longer) whereas the Petersen at 41 min keep it at the dimensions of late Beethoven. Overall, the Fitzwilliams seem also a bit more conventionally romantic. For what little it's worth neither seems "French" to me, they both go with the more general romantic (or "German") side of the piece.


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## Merl

^ what Kreisler said. The problem for me and the reason this SQ is not in my top SQs is mainly down to that opening movement which is a bit drawn out and over-wrought (especially for those like the Fitzwilliams who drag it out to 17mins). After that I'm fine with it and I especially like the finale.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Yes, I definitely agree with most of you that the first movement is the most difficult to understand. I don’t want to say it’s the “weakest” movement because it’s a marvel of composition, but I do think it is a bit overlong for what it really needs to say. I have a tough time sustaining my attention with a piece when there’s not much rhythmic variety unless there is corresponding textural variety, and this movement lingers right on the edge of that for me but I still find it enjoyable when I really focus in. 

I listened to the Petersens today, and they are definitely my favorite so far. Big rich sonorities and impeccable phrasing. Most importantly, though their playing is warm and affectionate, they don’t linger extensively and always keep the ultimate goal in mind, which is important in such “soupy” music; you don’t want it to get too bloated and sappy and always want it to be pushing forward. Their Adagio, for example, is around 10 minutes to the Ysaÿe’s 13, which works better for me. And their handling of the deft, explosive passagework in the scherzo and finale is superb.


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## HenryPenfold

I don't have a problem with a broad approach to the first movement. Given that it contains the best music in the whole work, I'm ok with a more reflective approach that allows the music to loosen out. I think the second movement is more critical in terms of tempo and attack.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Are you sure, about that 48 seconds, between 4:29 and 6:18, Henry?


Oops! :lol:



> Using Earth minutes I'd say you may have miscalculated. As I said, it's almost 2 minutes slower.






> Incidentally, I agree about the *Joachim* recording. It's a decent recording but needs a bit more in the scherzo but it's still easily recommendable. I've listened to quite a few more this morning and 4 that were OK, but no more, were the *Raphael*, *Gewandhaus*, *Academica* and *Vilnius* recordings.


:tiphat:


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## SearsPoncho

I just listened to my recording by the Dante Quartet, which I usually take out a couple times a year. It gets better every time.

This highly chromatic, late romantic music is arguably in the same aural universe as late Faure and Chausson, but the cyclical elements of the piece clarify and bring a satisfying unity that late Faure might not necessarily enjoy with casual listeners. I also love those big opening organ chords. With the exception of the slow movement, I believe this one benefits greatly from an almost neo-classical articulation and dynamic palette. It also doesn't hurt to have repeated listening sessions with this one; I used to think the first movement was this ultra-romantic, hazy gobbledygook, but after repeated sessions, the musical architecture and direction become clear. I still believe a lean approach helps, especially since there's plenty of polyphony flying about. On the surface, the Scherzo actually appears to be one of the few that meets the dictionary definition, however there is something ominous and foreboding underneath it all. I think Mahler would have approved. Then there's the big, romantic slow movement, which is easy to digest...hey! I like sweets! The work really comes together in the Finale, with the cyclical form coming to the rescue and, arguably, saving the piece. All the earlier themes transform into something compelling and easier to digest for the next listening session. 

With all this talk of food, digestion and sweets, I'm gonna make a banana split now!


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## Merl

I'm with ACB. The Petersens just edge it for me. If the Dantes wouldn't have been as broad in that first movement (that goes for the Fitzwilliams too, who really drag it out to a preposterous length) it may have been a different story but both very fine recordings. IMO, there were some other impressive ones too (my blogged list link is below).

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3480-franck-string-quartet-d.html


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## BlackAdderLXX

Never heard this one so I found the Petersens on YouTube. I like Franck so I went into it with positive expectations. I liked it overall and was glad to have heard it. The first movement was definitely a bit of a slog at times for me to get through. To me it seemed a little schmaltzy and long winded, though there were brilliant moments as well. The highlight of the entire work for me was the scherzo which I found quite charming and clever. Likewise there were moments in the final movement that I found quite enjoyable as well. I'm glad this was picked for the week and I'd listen to it again. That said, I don't imagine this would be a quartet that would get replayed often.


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## Kreisler jr

So I listened twice more to the Quatuor Malibran from the Cypres set and this is pretty good. (Apparently it is not just a pickup ensemble from La Monnaie, Brussels, but played together for a while and maybe still exists (although the personnel seems to have changed since the Franck was recorded in 2010). They also go for rather flowing tempi and the sound is very good but they do not achieve such strong contrasts as the Petersen (and neither the organ sonority at the beginning).
It is a worthy piece but I am still not completely won over. 

In the other three big works (violin sonata, piano q, symphony) the cyclic re-appearance/dominance of the main theme for me never gets in the way of directly enjoying the music, roughly it is serving the poetic-dramatic unity. In the quartet, this does not work so well for me. 
Disregarding what was mentioned above, that the apotheosis of the motto is already at the beginning, I find the quotations at the beginning of the finale gimmicky (it's not like in the 9th symphony where it was a long time ago we heard these themes), I don't really care for the whole finale, I am afraid. And the slow movement has that larmoyant character that tends to get a bit cloying after a while. (Admittedly, the piano quintet does this as well, but that one is so over the top and I find the music also more directly expressive whereas the material in the quartet is has to be sludged chromatically to achieve this.)
This may sound more negative than I mean it; the quartet deserves to be played and known and I am pleasantly surprised that there are quite a few rather recent recordings (like Dante, Danel etc. that seem all quite good).


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## StevehamNY

If it's a French(ish) composition from 1889, you don't have to wonder where the cover art is coming from:

























Bucking this trend are the Academicas (again, they're becoming regulars!):









(It's actually an interesting image, but doesn't this belong on something more like Bartok or Schoenberg?)

And as for the Prague City Quartet:









Can somebody please explain the wild, acid-trip flower in the middle of these ancient buildings?


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> And as for the Prague City Quartet:
> 
> View attachment 156923
> 
> 
> Can somebody please explain the wild, acid-trip flower in the middle of these ancient buildings?


No. It's just tacky SQ cover art. You should be used to it by now. Perhaps it was another year when the Czechs did well in the Euros. They did win it in '76. 
:cheers:


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## Malx

I've now had time to listen to a couple of recordings of the Franck a few times each. With the piece being new to me I decided not to over do things by listening to a multitude of different versions but perhaps getting to know a couple a bit better - I opted to go with the Petersen and Danel recordings, readily available on Qobuz.
Frankly (sorry), I am still unsure about this quartet there are things to like and sections that to me hang around a bit too long. The Petersens appear to try and give the work a bit more impetus but maybe the style of the composition lends itself to a more restrainted romantic approach - I can't make my mind up. The inner movements are fine, the opening movement could be more concise but the more I listened the length didn't bother me quite so much, the finale perfectly enjoyable.
The whole didn't convince me that here was a piece that I was seriously in need of adding to my collection - I'm glad to have made its acquaintance but as yet don't consider it a good friend.


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## Burbage

Friday has taken me by surprise so this is late and sprawling, but it is what it is, and everyone's cordially invited to ignore it:


It is, perhaps, 1875, and here’s Franck, perched in his organ loft with half his mind on the mirror and half his mind on a string quartet. Perhaps not even that. Perhaps a third of his mind is wondering if he’ll get another half-hour out of the recidivist choirboy that’s manning the bellows, deep in the bowels of the instrument. Franck is, of course, a devout and reverential catholic, and is prone to signal that virtue by way of lengthy improvisations. He is also a demonstrator of Cavaille-Coll’s organs, though in a tasteful way. Not at all like the uniformed sales-artists of kitchenware brands, a once-memorable feature of department-store basements, or today’s plastic breed of glossy influencers. But much the same thing in the end, and maybe not quite dignified, unless you profoundly believe that God’s ineffable balance weighs out lengths of of tin piping.

To be fair, he probably wasn’t thinking about the quartet, so much as the reason for it. For, at this moment in time, the French musical establishment was circling its wagons. Not only had the nation been trounced by the Prussians in a beastly war but its whole musical heritage faced an existential threat. The trouble was mostly Offenbach whose silly operettas were threatening to draw the countesses (who mattered, even in post-revolutionary France) and their money (which mattered a whole heap more) away from recitals of Unpopular but Improving Music. The End had looked surely Nigh, and may well have nighed if it hadn’t been for the young, and potentially thrusting, Saint-Saens, who had valiantly sprang to the defence of his homeland a few years before by, almost single-handed and with no thought for his own safety, establishing a committee.

The committee, named the Societe Nationale de Musique, had one solemn task, which was to prove to the Prussians that French music really was as great as all that. In pursuance of this aim, it signed up French composers and held concerts in which their French music was performed. One such composer was Franck who, despite being Nederlandsish, rapidly counted himself in, presumably as a sort of counterbalance to various Bretons who, for Breton reasons of their own, kept their own counsel and committee in the Lands of the Bretons, as if the Lands of the Bretons weren’t French.

Anyhow, here is Franck, now signed up to the Society, and therefore pledged to help the cause of Serious Music. Duly inspired, he steps up to the plate and starts thinking about writing a string quartet, on account of it being the most serious form of music anyone has yet invented. And, such is the strength of his patriotism, he will continue to think about it for another fifteen years. 

In his defence, he was probably busy. For, between thinking about the quartet and writing it, he manged to churn out a handful of piano works, a ditto of organ works, three symphonic poems, a symphony, a sort-of piano concerto, a piano quintet, a couple of songs and a whole opera, which all somehow seemed more urgent (though, if posterity is a guide, mostly weren’t), which seems quite a deskful to clear.

Of all this, the quintet seems to have been something special. A quintet can never be as serious as a quartet but, all the same, it had been written with the Society in mind, and dedicated to its very President who, still being Saint-Saens, took the piano at the premiere, trusting it would be a simple matter of sight-reading whatever was put in front of him. We can only imagine his surprise when, instead of finding a tasteful set of variations on the Marseillaise, he found himself faced with an orgy of lascivious notes writhing in salacious harmony and sprinkled with saucy motifs. I’m not familiar with the work, but I have cautiously listened to curated chunks from a safe distance in a well-lit room, and suspect that some of Saint-Saens’ prudish outrage might have been the product of a furtive imagination which, at the time, was focussed somewhat unhealthily on an Irish composer with an adopted accent, Augusta Holmès, who happened to be studying under Franck. And, according to rumour, more than just studying.

Saint-Saens, apparently, stormed out at the end of the show, allegedly embarrassed at having to hammer out so much smut at a sitting, and this, according to the bunch of trouble-making young upstarts that Franck had tutored (the word ‘conspiracy’ is such an ugly one), was far from Presidential behaviour. Sadly, there doesn’t appear to have been a Code of Conduct for Presidents, but Vincent d’Indy, one such upstart, hatched a cunning plan that would rival the most devious allotment-committee shenanigan, and mildly proposed that the Societe Nationale de Music might entertain the possibility of programming a little music in its concerts that had been written by composers from outside France. I don’t know if he mentioned Irish composers as being particularly worthy of attention, or lobbied the sympathies of other members (as I said, it is such an ugly word) but perhaps he didn’t need to. The proposal was duly adopted by the members of the club, Saint-Saens duly resigned, Franck was elected in his place and everyone was happy. Apart from Saint-Saens, who wouldn’t be so scandalised until 34 years later, when Stravinsky did something obscene with a bassoon.

Franck didn’t, apparently, entirely relish the role, but he wasn’t going to last much longer, which might have been a comfort. A posthumous comfort, obviously, but so many comforts are, as Shakespeare has helpfully observed. Either way, Franck now found himself the President of a club for serious music, and, being a composer too, I guess he felt obliged to get round to writing some. It took him another decade to get round to it, admittedly, but he eventually turned his mind to the string quartet he’d had long in mind already.

Some have noticed a similarity with the quartet and Franck’s organ music, and there is certainly some of that. It’s a great sea of semitones, on which fragments float from hand to hand to foot, and there’s both a feeling of being on a journey and also that, everywhere you look, it’s all the same. Just like in one of Bruckner’s Halls of Mirrors, there’s a new version of the familiar at every turn. But, unlike Bruckner, who writes music that is long and sounds long, Franck is nothing but quality. There are bits of Bruckner where you can hear the great man’s thumbs twiddling, but Franck, like Debussy, can noodle with purpose. Arguably (well, I’ll argue it) where Franck really shines is in the bits you can’t quite remember, the rambling digressions in-between. For some reason, I find that a very attractive quality.

I guess that’s where a lifetime of improvisation gets you - the ability to pass an indefinite amount of time without it sounding as if you are. Personally, I find the organ difficult to comprehend. The combination of church and organ makes as much sense, to my ears, as bathroom and bagpipes. The notes come from so many directions, and bounce around so much, that it’s impossible to tell which of them should go where. I guess it’s different for those with perfect pitch, or those devious souls who’ve mastered chord-counting, but I am not so blessed. I’m not anti-organ, exactly, and nothing cheers me more than some well-played Bach or Sweelinck on a few sweetly reedy pipes. But the Romantic organ, the beast of a thousand stops with a boy in its belly (now, thankfully, with mostly electric breath), is best listened to from half a mile away.

Which is why I wondered if Franck didn’t kick himself for not writing any quartets before. He certainly has a talent for the form and, though some have dared suggest it’s a bit otiose in parts, and overdoes the hand-wringing here and there, I think it’s fine. I’ve been long familiar with the quartet and the symphony, and the Symphonic Variations hold a special place in my heart. It’s true, perhaps, that Franck liked his timbres and the quartet doesn’t have too many, but I’m not sure it makes a heap of difference, and it’s startling how orchestrated this sounds.

I’ve been listening to the Dante Quartet, who sound as good as any I’ve listened to. Merl may be right about the Petersens, and I can’t say I wasn’t tempted, but it’s coupled, if that’s the right word, with the quintet, and I’m not sure someone of my age and delicate sensibilities should expose themselves, if that’s the right phrase, to such filth.


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## Enthusiast

Franck didn't write enough music for me to even think of rejecting one of his major pieces and I tend to allow him the benefit of any doubt I might have otherwise felt about some of his music. I really like this quartet. Does the first movement meander to a fault and is it overlong? Perhaps but that is not really what I hear. It is a hugely Romantic wallow and I am in bliss letting it wash over me. What's wrong with meandering, anyway? 

For me it is the first movement is the key to finding a good performance. I have spent most of my time with three accounts - the Dante, Petersen and Danel quartets - and all are good. But the slightly cooler and more lyrical way that the Petersen Quartet open the work misses a trick for me and serves that (arguably flawed) movement less well than it might. But it's merely a matter of degree. There is some lovely playing in their account of the movement. The Dante quartet launches into it with opulence and richness and continues in the same vein. The Danel Quartet take a similar approach to the opening but their sound is a little lighter and cleaner and I get more of a sense of direction. I love both. But, for those who find the movement difficult, the Danel's approach seems to offer more hint of a structure - or at least a sense of there being a narrative - than the others. So, if you feel Franck gets a little lost in this movement and if this is a problem for you despite the gorgeous warmth of the Dante Quartet's approach, it may be that the Danel Quartet will work best for you.

The two middle movements are less problematic, I think. The Dante Quartet offers some attractive accounts and, after their wallowing in the first movement, sound lighter and fleeter in the scherzo before going into a lovely account of the Larghetto. But is it just a touch cautious? The Danel Quartet sound a little more methodical and pace the Larghetto beautifully. Their Scherzo, though, is a little more serious than the other two quartets. The Petersen's Scherzo is faster than the others and quite magical - think will-o'-the-wisps - but I find their Larghetto just a little dry. It doesn't retain my attention as well as the other two.

The final movement is perhaps the most conventional sounding, has more structure than the first movement. It is a powerful essay. I love the Dante's ebbing and flowing way with it, building up to peaks and then relaxing again. And they play it so well! The Petersen account cannot be faulted but seems a little less characterful than the Dante. The Danel's approach is quite tough. All three work fine.

It has been a pleasure getting to know this work a bit better. I liked all three records but, having liked the contrasting Dante and the Danel ones best, could settle for the two of them.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The reaction to this pick was about what I supposed it would be. Some loved it, some struggled with its length and "indulgence," but I'm glad that everyone seems to have at least got something from it. My opinion remains that it is a flawed but towering masterpiece of late-Romantic chamber music that reveals new felicities with each listen.

If you're still interested, *Mandryka*, it's your turn to choose next week.


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## HenryPenfold

I want to say that I really got a lot from this quartet, one that I'd neglected. I'm grateful for the choice because it's going to be a work that I'm going to return to and, without it being chosen, it would have remained neglected. Big thank you to Allegro Con Brio.

I am out of synch with most board members in that I really like the first movement very much and think it contains some really interesting music. For me, it doesn't drag and it never feels too long. I'm very happy with my Quatuor Joachim CD, despite having some initial reservations about the energy level in the scherzo.

All in all, a very good week of listening.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The reaction to this pick was about what I supposed it would be. Some loved it, some struggled with its length and "indulgence," but I'm glad that everyone seems to have at least got something from it. My opinion remains that it is a flawed but towering masterpiece of late-Romantic chamber music that reveals new felicities with each listen.


For all its characteristics that I didn't immediately enjoy, I'm really glad to have heard it. And that scherzo is really great.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hello people,
I've been a little out of quartet time for a while. Listening to the Fitzwilliams now, since I always like hearing them and didn't know the others that popped up on Spotify. I also liked the first mvt. and thought the shift to 2nd mvt. was awesome! The larghetto is fantastically beautiful <3 I never heard much by Franck so I'm wondering where to place him...What about comparing him with Grieg and his harmonic force? Just without the Norwegian thing...


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## Knorf

Took a listen today, Petersen Quartet. As I thought I remembered, I felt like the first movement left me little to write home about. 

But I was won over this time by those terrific inner movements and an excellent finale⁠—glad I gave this another chance! It was a very long time ago, and who knows whether I was remembering correctly anyway.


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## HenryPenfold

Could the outer/inner movements dichotomy be an Apollonian and Dionysian Nietzsche-type thing?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Listened to the Petersen's and the Fitzwilliam's recordings and I still think that the Danel's are the best at it. I don't think that the best part of this quartet is the first movement, it definitely holds great riches in its other 3 movements, without whom the 1st movement would be nothing much really.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Could the outer/inner movements dichotomy be an Apollonian and Dionysian Nietzsche-type thing?


No it's definitely Franck.


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## Josquin13

I first listened to The London String Quartet's recording from 1928, and I liked it, well enough, despite that the old recorded sound became a bit warbly at times. But their use of violin slides had the subtle effect of overly sweetening the music in spots, which wasn't to my tastes: 



. I then moved on to the Pro Arte String Quartet from 1933, which piqued my curiosity because they bring the quartet in at a lengthy 47:51 minutes! I don't know this music well enough to be able to say if that was due to their taking repeats or not? but it's nearly 8 minutes slower than the Petersons. The 1st movement was played quite broadly, which I thought worked well; however, their use of violin slides was also noticeable, and there was again an element of sweetness to the Pro Arte's playing. It made me wonder if this is how Cesar Franck would have expected to hear his quartet?, or if the violin slides were more due to a post-romantic performance style that emerged during the early 20th century?

After the first movement, I found that my mind began to wander between the 1st and 4th movements. I didn't become as intently focused on the music again until the spirited, final movement, which I thought was well composed. I wondered if this could be partly due to the Pro Arte Quartet drawing out the four movements to lengthier proportions?






After the Pro Arte's recording, I then listened to the Quatour Danel on CPO (a recording that I own, but I had only ever listened to for the Piano Quintet coupling). This was a completely different experience!, as the Danels offered a more dynamic and unified, & at times more incisive 'modern' performance. I felt myself more easily drawn into the music, and started to become fascinated by the structure of the whole quartet, including the two inner movements. There was nothing maudlin or overly sweetened about the Danel's playing (no violin slides or scooping into notes), which I appreciated: 




I now see why ACB chose this quartet, and thanks for your pick. I ended up enjoying the work, after a bit of a rough start. I haven't heard the Peterson SQ recording yet, but expect it's going to be hard to beat the Danels in this music. Their performance is so beautifully judged and cohesive in all four movements. I also found it interesting that the Danels apparently see Franck's Piano Quintet as the more full blown romantic work, in contrast to the string quartet, where the romantic elements are more tempered in their reading. (Although I can imagine that other groups will play this quartet in a more full blown late romantic style throughout, which I'm not sure that I would like.) For me, the Danels balanced the classical and romantic elements in this quartet just right.

I should also point out how extremely difficult it is, from my experience, to come up with a 1st rate string quartet deriving from the French "Impressionist" era, or Belle Époque, that can be mentioned in the same sentence with the two great quartets by Debussy and Ravel (though obviously not in preference to those two masterworks). Granted, there are many good to very good quartets from the French period, but finding a quartet that is better than that is quite difficult from my listening experience.

With my choice coming up again in the next couple of weeks, I had lately been focused on and determined to find another lesser known French or French influenced quartet that I could present to the group. It's a question that has occupied my thoughts & continued to fascinate me for some time now: Are there any other great French or French influenced quartets that derive from the Debussy, Ravel era, other than the two by Debussy & Ravel? (This would be a fascinating tangent for our thread to explore, and try to answer more definitely...)

As some of you may recall, my last pick on this thread was Charles Koechlin's String Quartet No. 1, and I thought that was a worthy candidate, in answer to this question. Not that it closely rivals the Debussy & Ravel string quartets, as it doesn't, but nevertheless, it's a very fine quartet, in my view. The Faure String Quartet also comes to mind, which we've already covered, and we also listened to Milhaud's first SQ. However, recently, I've been listening to a bunch of other French & French influenced quartets: such as those by the two Breton composers, Ropartz & Cras, as well as the Belgian composers, Jongen, Devreese, & van Eechaute. I've also listened to quartets by the French composers Roussel, Magnard, Witkowski, Durosoir, Lekeu, Rogister, D'Indy, Saint-Saens, and Bonnal. & while I have probably most liked Jongen's 3rd SQ, Ropartz's 3rd, 5th, & 6th SQs, Magnard's SQ, Devreese's SQ, and maybe van Eachute's SQ (which interestingly is composed in a homage to Ravel), I have to admit that none of these string quartets are quite as good as Franck's String Quartet, at least, not on my first impression (with the possible exception of Devreese's SQ, which is very short, at only 14 minutes). In addition, I've even been listening to Vaughan Williams' 1st SQ and the two quartets by Enescu, since they are arguably French influenced. So, my hats off to you, ACB, for finding this quartet! For me, obviously that was no easy feat!

(To better clarify, I'm not claiming that the Franck SQ is in the same league with Debussy & Ravel, but I do believe that it belongs in the conversation as a potential candidate for a Belle Époque quartet that is better than very good, along with Koechlin & Faure's. Out of curiosity, does anyone have any other candidates, especially one that I've not already mentioned?)

All of which has me now alternatively exploring and re-listening to various Scandinavian composers for a suitable quartet pick for the week after next. Or, possibly I'll go with an American or Swiss or Italian SQ... but not likely a French, Belgian, or Breton quartet, as I had previously hoped.


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## Art Rock

I did not have time to go for comparisons this week, but I dusted off my CD of the Dante, and thoroughly enjoyed this quartet (as well as the Fauré one it is coupled with). Good choice as far as I'm concerned.


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## Carmina Banana

As expected, this quartet is a big slab of emotional gratification for me. There is a special type of satisfaction that only a long-winded composer can deliver. Bruckner fans and Wagnerites can attest to this, I’m sure. To some degree, I think the late romantic era is all about prolonging, extending and (as others have said) wallowing in emotions. Franck could do that with the best of them. I also want to stress his uniqueness. Franck was enjoying the chromatic free-for-all like other composers but used it to make his own voice. It is hard to explain, but when I hear his little twists and turns it is like a fingerprint. That's got to be Franck!
In every large-scale Franck piece there is a potent mixture of human desire and religious fervor that eventually culminate in ecstasy. How could you not like that? But you have to be in it for the long haul. 
I know Franck claimed to be studying late Beethoven, but I don’t hear the connection. Late Beethoven for me is about philosophical quandaries, irony, existentialism. This is about good old fashioned surging emotions and delayed gratification. Where I do see a connection is with Hollywood. All of those film scores from the 30s, 40s, etc. have the same sense of constantly shifting emotional turmoil. 

I enjoyed the Peterson Quartet. Beautiful sound overall and the scherzo is magical.
I listened to the Fine Arts Quartet from 2008 because I have a weird connection with some of the members from this era. This is also excellent. There is an intensity and momentum to their playing throughout, but I was spoiled by the Peterson’s scherzo. This one was not quite magical.


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## SearsPoncho

Josquin13: If you want another top French or French-inspired quartet from that era, you should give the Chausson a spin. It's actually one of the quartets I'm considering when my turn comes in about four months (ouch!). Of course, we've all been waiting on a couple of big ones, and I don't know what will still be around in four months, so if you or anyone else want to nominate the Chausson, which I'm quite fond of, feel free to go ahead. If you think think the Franck is chromatic as hell, wait till you get to the Chausson.


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## Josquin13

SearsPoncho said:


> Josquin13: If you want another top French or French-inspired quartet from that era, you should give the Chausson a spin. It's actually one of the quartets I'm considering when my turn comes in about four months (ouch!). Of course, we've all been waiting on a couple of big ones, and I don't know what will still be around in four months, so if you or anyone else want to nominate the Chausson, which I'm quite fond of, feel free to go ahead. If you think think the Franck is chromatic as hell, wait till you get to the Chausson.


Yes, I know the Chausson string quartet, & that's a very good suggestion (as I'm a fan of Chausson's music, generally). However, I always feel a bit let down by the way that his student D'Indy finished the quartet. It's not that I don't think what D'Indy composed is very good, but nevertheless, it feels oddly disconnected from what Chausson wrote in the first three movements. If only he'd been able to finish his quartet, I believe it would definitely fit the bill. So, d-mn Chausson's bicycle! (although it may have been a deliberate and therefore emotionally desperate, even suicidal crash...)


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## Kreisler jr

I wanted to comment this already when the Hyperion cover was posted. I rather dislike the "impressionism" label in music. Even for a few pieces by Debussy where it fits somewhat (Faun, Sirenes etc.), it fits not very well (I don't think it fits Debussy's SQ at all). But Fauré and especially Franck are totally different. The Franck quartet (like his piano quintet) might tend towards a too orchestral sound but there is no dominance of "color" or "mood". One might find a fusion of German and French tradition, but in any case it is "solidly late romantic", almost obsessively dominated by the cyclically employed motives etc. (not by mood, color, texture).
Not saying that anyone here claimed that it was an "impressionistic" piece but I found that hyperion cover rather inappropriate


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## Mandryka

I just got an email to say I have the honour of next weeks choice. In fact it's easy, for selfish reasons - there's a string quartet which I'm interested in and I'm curious about different approaches on record.

Haydn op 50/4


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## Bwv 1080

A later Qt with a fugal ending


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## Allegro Con Brio

Always up for more Haydn, of course! Perhaps a needed palate cleanser after the adventurous cuisine of Kagel and the fattening feast of Franck.


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## Mandryka

With modern instruments, these people may be of interest, and the Lindsays studio recording. The most "famous" recording of op 50, amongst cognoscenti of course, is The Tokyo, and it is all that you'd expect of them. The Auryn, for those who like them, is on Vol 7. Leipzig Quartet is on spotify, but not so easy to find (Volume 2)


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## Merl

Nice choice. I'll check out all the usual suspects (Mosaiques, Angeles, Salomon, Buchberger, Auryn, Leipzigers, etc). There's some one-offs too courtesy of the Zaide (as you mentioned), Tokyo, Amati and Nomos quartets but surprisingly fewer than the other Haydn quartets. I know the Lindsays, Auryn, Tatrai and Kodaly quartet recordings best of these so it'll be nice to check out the competition (it's been a while since I played this quartet, tbh). And here was me thinking you'd choose something more modern, Mandryka.


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## Kreisler jr

Haydn's op.50#4 is a piece that will always be modern


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## BlackAdderLXX

Haydn is always a win. Good choice.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> And here was me thinking you'd choose something more modern, Mandryka.


The problem is that this group thrives on music which has many recordings IMO.

(Leipzig may be interesting)


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> The problem is that this group thrives on music which has many recordings IMO.
> 
> (Leipzig may be interesting)


Aye, true. My bad, I suppose. I have the Leipzigers on the HD. Need to listen to it.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Mandryka said:


> View attachment 157016
> 
> 
> With modern instruments, these people may be of interest, and the Lindsays studio recording. The most "famous" recording of op 50, amongst cognoscenti of course, is The Tokyo, and it is all that you'd expect of them. The Auryn, for those who like them, is on Vol 7. Leipzig Quartet is on spotify, but not so easy to find (Volume 2)


I liked the Zaide. They put in a few moves that sound almost 21st Century, for example the short glissandi for each player in the 2nd movement. And the final fugue is great, almost a short version of the "Grosse". This whole work is a mystery to me, partly very austere, almost harsh in its dissonaces, and then very much 18th Century for example in the Menuett. However, you then expect a nice "ländlerisch" Trio and you get a twisted variation instead. A mind-boggling piece.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I liked the Zaide. They put in a few moves that sound almost 21st Century, for example the short glissandi for each player in the 2nd movement. And the final fugue is great, almost a short version of the "Grosse". This whole work is a mystery to me, partly very austere, almost harsh in its dissonaces, and then very much 18th Century for example in the Menuett. However, you then expect a nice "ländlerisch" Trio and you get a twisted variation instead. A mind-boggling piece.


I like this review. I'll start with this performance


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I often listen to Haydn quartets, but might have been out of focus when I've heard this. I actually like to be a bit "unconscious" when having music on. I decided to put on the Nomos Quartet now after reading their biography. For the last years I've mostly put on the Leipzigers or Chiaroscuro. When I think of it, Haydn is near the top of my list of composers I hear a lot (but I only have 3 absolute favorites). This music makes my brain the way it's supposed to be


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## Knorf

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> This music makes my brain the way it's supposed to be


I know the feeling.


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## HenryPenfold

Quatuor Zaide are easily the best quartet out there - no one comes close. I can't wait to sample some of their music.


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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> Quatuor Zaide are easily the best quartet out there - no one comes close. I can't wait to sample some of their music.


Exquisite intonation and loads of ideas. Here, for example






The make most other quartets sound equally tuned.


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## PeterF

I listen to Haydn quartets regularly. The Opus 50 quartets are , to my ears, wonderful. My favorite versions of the complete set of Op.50 are by these three quartets - Tokyo, Schneider, and Kodaly.
I also enjoy the Prazak Quartet performing 3 of the Op.50 quartets.

It is rare that I go more than 3 days without playing some Haydn string quartets.


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> Quatuor Zaide are easily the best quartet out there - no one comes close. I can't wait to sample some of their music.


Wait, have you not heard their music yet? (And yet they're easily the best?)

(If I did emoticons, I'd put a winky here. I'm half? kidding because that's a hell of a statement to make about a quartet when the Takacs, Haas, and several others are all active...)

EDIT: And don't forget these guys!


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## Merl

As usual a wide variety of performance styles evident, from the broader, relaxed and tonally beautiful *Leipzigers* to the scratchy *Festetics* (I'm sorry, folks, but I just can't get past the sound of that Festetics set, even if they do make an OK job of this quartet). Had a listen to the impressive *Amatis*, *Tatrai* (from Cd) and *Angeles* quartets last night. The Tatrai are slowwww, detached and subdued in the final movement here and I much preferred others. The *Zaides* play with a quicker pace and are brighter, jollier and often delicious. They certainly don't make the quartet seem as 'tragic' as many (is that a recommendation or a minus, you may have to decide that for yourself?).

Edit: The *Buchbergers* don't hang around here. Their fugue is super speedy
Some may feel like they've a train to catch but it actually seems to work well in their full vision of the quartet. Listening to my *Kodaly* cd just now, I was impressed by how well they pace their account and the sound they produce. Btw, looks like the Mosaiques didn't do this one.


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## annaw

I've been away again for some time. I'll be moving across the pond this autumn and that has kept me a bit preoccupied but not enough to keep me away from some fine-fine Haydn . 

My personal opinion is that Haydn was one of the greatest quartet composers of all time. In general, I struggle a bit with the Classicists because the strict structure of the sonata form sometimes bores me and I generally tend to prefer the certain brashness and complexity of the Romantics and Modernists. However, Haydn is a great exception. In fact, Haydn's quartets were one of my gateways into chamber music and when I first discovered them, I liked them so much that I even attempted to follow some of the scores while listening (which was a great effort with my very limited knowledge of music theory).

The Op. 50/4 quartet is a wonderful one and I'm really enjoying it! I think the second movement is a perfect example of what makes Haydn's quartets special - it combines such a variety of emotions. There are sections that are thoughtful, if not sorrowful; sections which are sweet and lovely, almost jovial. I think the last fugue section, particularly, is very special; in its own subtle way it seems to be the culmination of all the dramatic tension of the preceding movements. Probably one of the things I like most about the quartet is how precise and thought-through is the dialogue between the instruments. The clean and transparent structure of it makes the quartet just so satisfying.

I'm a big fan of Auryn and so far all their Haydn recordings I've listened to have been wonderful. Their playing is clean, lively, and the sound quality is stellar. This one was no exception although it was the first Op. 50/4 recording I listened to this week, so I don't have much comparison. I'm currently listening to Leipzigers and love their recording as well. I fully agree with Merl that "broad" is exactly the way to describe it. They have beautiful full sound and at least the first movement is melodically wonderfully played and they produce an amazing flowing sound in the second movement. Leipzigers have this rare skill to produce an almost organ-like sound (particularly noticeable in their recording of Beethoven's 15th SQ's third movement), which they demonstrate beautifully in this recording as well.

Thanks for this wonderful pick, Mandryka!


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## SearsPoncho

I'm a big fan of this quartet. I'm always interested in the relatively rare, minor key works of Haydn and Mozart. I believe Mozart's minor key works were nearly all special, and represented something different and unique, which cannot merely be explained by the change in tonality; they almost sound as if they were written by a different composer. This is not the case with Haydn. His minor key compositions usually sound like Haydn in a minor key, if that makes sense. 

This is a piece full of drama and pathos (especially considering the composer and era), but I believe Haydn's trademark humor or cheekiness comes through at different times, such as the 3rd movement, where there are moments that sound like the musicians are taking turns mocking each other. The finale might be a fugue, but it still manages to sound like classical-era Haydn. This quartet is serious and dramatic, but also tuneful and fun, and, ultimately, immensely satisfying. There are some grey areas here and there which are somewhat unusual for Haydn, and there's also a sense of uneasy tension throughout much of the piece, however, it's handled with Haydn's typical elan. The manner in which Haydn plays around with our expectations regarding tonality and his own style, which is frequently unequivocal major key fun, is a significant factor in making this a standout piece. There's a give and take that would be exploited further by Beethoven and ultimately lead to Romanticism, although Haydn and Beethoven accomplish this using traditional classical forms, and I think the use of a "classical" fugue was awesome, as it would be in Beethoven's compositions. As usual, I'll start with my Kodaly Quartet recording, but if the Jerusalem Quartet recorded it, I'll definitely sample it. The J.Q. is on my permanent radar after that amazing performance of H's Op. 33, #3.

A great selection! After yesterday, I thought we might get an American quartet, such as Barber, Ives, Carter, or even Dvorak's "American" quartet, but I'm happy to spend another week with Haydn.


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## SearsPoncho

By the way, the primary theme of the 1st movement has a 4 note rhythmic motif that one of his pupils would use as the basis for a symphony you may have heard of. Short-short-short-long. Ok, Haydn tacks another note at the end, but drops it as the movement develops. Da-da-da-daaaa!


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> Wait, have you not heard their music yet? (And yet they're easily the best?)


Haven't heard a note of their playing.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Today I listened to the Zaïde and the Auryn. Needless to say this is a very enjoyable work, and again I'm finding something worthwhile in another Haydn minuet. Although my favorite movement in this thing is that 2nd movement, a great andante. The Zaïde's don't take any repeats so their recording is something like 5 minutes shorter than the Auryn's. The 2nd movement is not very affected by the editing done by the Zaïde's, but the 1st one does make a lot more sense in its full length when done by the Auryn's. All in all though I think the Zaïde's would be my go to performance out of this two. The fugal ending is a bit more interesting in their account, there's a greater clarity in their playing, and so is the minuet, which is much too relaxed in the case of the Auryn's.


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## Josquin13

To think that there was a time when Haydn's Op. 50 "Prussian" quartets were under recorded and neglected, and drastically underrated!, in my view. I recall that when I first started to listen to classical music back in the 1980s & early 90s, there were only three complete recordings of the Op. 50 quartets in the catalogue--by the Tatrai, Aeolian, and Tokyo Quartets (although the Alexander Schneider Quartet & Pro Arte Quartet may have recorded them, too, earlier on LP...): With the Tokyo Quartet Op. 50 set on DG serving as my introduction to this music:

--Tokyo String Quartet, Op.50, no. 4: 




Then, there was the Nomos-Quartett and the Angeles Quartet, on modern instruments, and the Salomon Quartet on period instruments.

--Nomos-Quartett, No. 4: 




Today, fortunately, we have more options, including The London Haydn Quartet, and the Festetics Quartet, on period instruments, and the Kodaly, Auryn, Buchberger, Leipzig, and Amati Quartets, on modern instruments, and 1/2 a set from the Prazak Quartet (who have made excellent recordings of nos. 3, 5, & 6, but no 4).

--Festetics Quartet, No. 4: 



--Kodaly Quartet, No. 4: 



--The London Haydn Quartet (not on You Tube): https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-London-Quartet/dp/B018GRO1EO

The last time I sat down with these quartets, which was a couple of years ago, I enjoyed listening to the recordings by the Amati and Auryn Quartets. Both surveys are very well played, but ultimately, maybe a bit too conservative, for my period instrument oriented tastes. So, I can't say that I was blown away by either set, and I may still slightly prefer the Tokyo SQ on DG, among modern instrument recordings. (Generally, my favorite groups for Haydn haven't recorded the Op. 50 set, such as the Takacs, Casals, Jerusalem, & Parkanyi Quartets, etc..) While my favorite period Op. 50 set is by the Festetics Quartet, but that is by default, since I haven't heard any other period recordings (except for a very fine performance of the Op. 50, no. 6 quartet by the Schuppanzigh Quartet)--such as those by The London Haydn Quartet and Salomon Quartet, and besides, Quatour Mosaiques hasn't recorded them.

--Amati Quartet, no. 4: 




--Auryn Quartet, no. 4: 

















Otherwise, I've not heard the Zäide Quartet in Haydn. So, I'll try hear them this week, if possible. I'm also going to try to listen to The London Haydn Quartet and Kodaly Quartet, as well. I wasn't overly crazy about The London Haydn Quartet in some of their earlier Haydn opuses, preferring other groups, but I do recall that their Op. 50 set received strong reviews when it came out. So, I should give them another chance, since maybe they've gotten stronger as their Haydn cycle has progressed.


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> To think that there was a time when Haydn's Op. 50 "Prussian" quartets were under recorded and neglected, and drastically underrated!, in my view. I recall that when I first started to listen to classical music back in the 1980s & early 90s, there were only three complete recordings of the Op. 50 quartets in the catalogue--by the Tatrai, Aeolian, and Tokyo Quartets (although the Alexander Schneider Quartet & Pro Arte Quartet may have recorded them, too, earlier on LP...): With the Tokyo Quartet Op. 50 set on DG serving as my introduction to this music:
> 
> --Tokyo String Quartet, Op.50, no. 4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then, there was the Nomos-Quartett and the Angeles Quartet, on modern instruments, and the Salomon Quartet on period instruments.
> 
> --Nomos-Quartett, No. 4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today, fortunately, we have more options, including The London Haydn Quartet, and the Festetics Quartet, on period instruments, and the Kodaly, Auryn, Buchberger, Leipzig, and Amati Quartets, on modern instruments, and 1/2 a set from the Prazak Quartet (who have made excellent recordings of nos. 3, 5, & 6, but no 4).
> 
> --Festetics Quartet, No. 4:
> 
> 
> 
> --Kodaly Quartet, No. 4:
> 
> 
> 
> --The London Haydn Quartet (not on You Tube): https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-London-Quartet/dp/B018GRO1EO
> 
> The last time I sat down with these quartets, which was a couple of years ago, I enjoyed listening to the recordings by the Amati and Auryn Quartets. Both surveys are very well played, but ultimately, maybe a bit too conservative, for my period instrument oriented tastes. So, I can't say that I was blown away by either set, and I may still slightly prefer the Tokyo SQ on DG, among modern instrument recordings. (Generally, my favorite groups for Haydn haven't recorded the Op. 50 set, such as the Takacs, Casals, Jerusalem, & Parkanyi Quartets, etc..) While my favorite period Op. 50 set is by the Festetics Quartet, but that is by default, since I haven't heard any other period recordings (except for a very fine performance of the Op. 50, no. 6 quartet by the Schuppanzigh Quartet)--such as those by The London Haydn Quartet and Salomon Quartet, and besides, Quatour Mosaiques hasn't recorded them.
> 
> --Amati Quartet, no. 4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Auryn Quartet, no. 4:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Otherwise, I've not heard the Zäide Quartet in Haydn. So, I'll try hear them this week, if possible. I'm also going to try to listen to The London Haydn Quartet and Kodaly Quartet, as well. I wasn't overly crazy about The London Haydn Quartet in some of their earlier Haydn opuses, preferring other groups, but I do recall that their Op. 50 set received strong reviews when it came out. So, I should give them another chance, since maybe they've gotten stronger as their Haydn cycle has progressed.


I think that old Tokyo recording of op 50/4 OK, somehow in my memory I had them as being very refined and poised, but when I listened to it this evening I thought that they capture the energy, the élan, of the music very nicely. Where it has a limitation is hard for me to express, it's as if it's somehow linear, too smoothly flowing from one idea to the next. I may be making a problem where there really isn't one.

I also listened to op 33/6. It struck me as the same sort of animal as op 50/4 - anyone who likes one will like the other.


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## Josquin13

Mandryka, 

Yes, I agree with everything you've just said there! I think the "limitation" mostly stems from the Tokyo Quartet not playing period instruments, or not being HIP enough. Which is certainly understandable, considering the older date of the analogue recording, and that they're playing modern instruments, which is obviously a hindrance, in that respect. In other words, the modern instruments themselves make the quartet sound too "linear" and "smoothly flowing from one idea to the next". I could say the same about other modern groups, too, who are smoother than the Tokyo Quartet, & don't quite get the "energy & élan" that the Tokyos are able to bring out in this music.


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> Haven't heard a note of their playing.


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## Merl

Listening to the *Fine Arts* 50/4 on Vox I'm struck by how stately some SQs used to sound. Dry, not unpleasant, but a bit stiff for my tastes. The *Aeolian* recording is much more pleasant and one of the best I've heard from their set. Just a few more to listen to.


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


>


I simply employed a non-empirical ocular appraisal


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> I also listened to op 33/6. It struck me as the same sort of animal as op 50/4 - anyone who likes one will like the other.


They have the major-minor variations in common, although as a slow movement in op.50/4 and allegretto-Finale in op.33/6 but besides that, I think they could hardly be more different! op.33/6 seems mostly of the "light brilliant scherzando" closing piece style.

Whereas I find the f# minor among the stranger Haydn quartets (behind op.20/3 and 55/2 and 54/2 but nevertheless quite strange). I am still not sure if the final fugue "works" but it is less "academic" than in op.20. The second/minor theme of the 2nd movement is almost ugly, rather strange dark sonorities. (There seems also a textual issue here with the Lindsays playing the pickup 16ths to the first minore section evenly compared to Festetics and Amati who play the first note as acciaccatura (short appoggiatura, I had to look these terms up))
Someone will probably dig out something earlier but I think the "double variations", albeit often with the second theme a minor/major variant of the first (so one gets a rondo-like ABA'B'A''), was an invention of Haydn, in any case I am not aware of any by Mozart. Even Beethoven rarely used it (I think in the trio op.70/2 and most famously in the op.132 Dankgesang and the 9th symphony adagio is also a variant of this type).


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## BlackAdderLXX

Can we skip to the part where Merl tells us the best one?  I don't have any recordings of this one and I'd like to get JUST. ONE. 
TYVM


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Can we skip to the part where Merl tells us the best one?  I don't have any recordings of this one and I'd like to get JUST. ONE.
> TYVM


Hey, I'm not the fountain of all knowledge and there's been a case made for a few recordings of this one up to now (many of which you can't argue with). However, I have been listening to all the accounts this week and do have a few preferences so I blogged them a few minutes ago. Some will agree, some won't but they're just opinions. If you're interested then in the link below. Thanks for picking this one, Mandryka as I've not played it in ages and had forgotten what a quirky and enjoyable quartet it is. 

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3482-haydn-string-quartet-op.html


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> I simply employed a non-empirical ocular appraisal












I think I finally get it. (Damn you, lack of irony cues in straight text!)

On a completely different note, good luck tomorrow to all of you English football fans!

(Unless, wait, are there any Danish football fans here?)


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## Knorf

I just get a blank page when I click on that link.


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> I think I finally get it. (Damn you, lack of irony cues in straight text!)
> 
> On a completely different note, good luck tomorrow to all of you English football fans!
> 
> (Unless, wait, are there any Danish football fans here?)


Never underestimate the Danes, they're great.


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## SearsPoncho

The Halftime Show should be a performance of Hamlet.


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> Never underestimate the Danes, they're great.


Only if they're from Barking.


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## Merl

Just as a footnote to my blog review there were a few anomalies I should mention. Firstly, like Jos, I'm not a fan of the London Haydn Quartet's recordings of Haydn, at all. however they definitely pulled out the best performance I've heard from them up to now so actually made it into my recommended recordings. I don't know what it is about those London Haydn Quartet recordings that doesn't resonate but they just don't, on the whole, do it for me. I know on other recordings I've heard the intonation seems often wayward but it's more the phrasing and general dynamics which I find a bit odd and sometimes unpleasant. Is it just me and Jos who aren't impressed with this quartet, on the whole? I know that a certain reviewer (ahem) hates them but that's understandable as a) they're modern and British b) HIP c) loved by Gramophone (all the things said reviewer hates) so they were always going to be on a loser with him. 

The reason I placed the Tokyo Quartet at the top of the pile rather than the Zaides or Leipzigers is purely that as an account it's one I could (and have) return to often. A much as I enjoyed the refreshing zeal of the Zaides, for me, the Tokyo have more depth across the piece. I totally understand why anyone would choose the Zaides, Leipzigers, Aeolian, Angeles, Kodaly, etc. They're all very fine performances.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

No Nomos? They're the ones I listened to, but after a while I thought they were a bit hard.


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> No Nomos? They're the ones I listened to, but after a while I thought they were a bit hard.


Oops, missed them off. I'll add it now. Thanks for reminding me.


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## Enthusiast

I must say that I haven't been as negative about the Tatrai as others. It is a little slow at the start but their seriousness is, for me, an important ingredient in this quartet. I suppose the Tokyo recording achieves as much (and more) without the slow start.


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## Mandryka

There’s too much focus on modern instruments in this discussion, the HIP performers know what they’re doing. London Haydn, Salomon etc.


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## Bwv 1080

If anyone wants to geek out, the minuet begins with a very common classical device, the quiescenza


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Hey, I'm not the fountain of all knowledge and there's been a case made for a few recordings of this one up to now (many of which you can't argue with).


I'm fairly certain you are just bantering and being self-deprecating but i tend to enjoy quite a few of your recommendations. That said I just downloaded the Quatuor Zaïde and am listening to it for the first time right now. This is a beautiful quartet and very well played and recorded here!


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> They have the major-minor variations in common, although as a slow movement in op.50/4 and allegretto-Finale in op.33/6 but besides that, I think they could hardly be more different! op.33/6 seems mostly of the "light brilliant scherzando" closing piece style.
> .


I'm still thinking about this, I've been distracted in fact. It could be that I listened to a quirky op 33/6. I'll be back.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Just as a footnote to my blog review there were a few anomalies I should mention. Firstly, like Jos, I'm not a fan of the London Haydn Quartet's recordings of Haydn, at all. however they definitely pulled out the best performance I've heard from them up to now so actually made it into my recommended recordings. I don't know what it is about those London Haydn Quartet recordings that doesn't resonate but they just don't, on the whole, do it for me. I know on other recordings I've heard the intonation seems often wayward but it's more the phrasing and general dynamics which I find a bit odd and sometimes unpleasant. Is it just me and Jos who aren't impressed with this quartet, on the whole? I know that a certain reviewer (ahem) hates them but that's understandable as a) they're modern and British b) HIP c) loved by Gramophone (all the things said reviewer hates) so they were always going to be on a loser with him.
> 
> The reason I placed the Tokyo Quartet at the top of the pile rather than the Zaides or Leipzigers is purely that as an account it's one I could (and have) return to often. A much as I enjoyed the refreshing zeal of the Zaides, for me, the Tokyo have more depth across the piece. I totally understand why anyone would choose the Zaides, Leipzigers, Aeolian, Angeles, Kodaly, etc. They're all very fine performances.


You see I think that the Tokyo's intonation is boring, like equal temperament, no juicy scrunchy microtones making really sexy intervals. That's why I don't share your enthusiasm.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I must say that I haven't been as negative about the Tatrai as others. It is a little slow at the start but their seriousness is, for me, an important ingredient in this quartet. I suppose the Tokyo recording achieves as much (and more) without the slow start.


It just seems to be comparatively lifeless, workmanlike, in the first movement.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> You see I think that the Tokyo's intonation is boring, like equal temperament, no juicy scrunchy microtones making really sexy intervals. That's why I don't share your enthusiasm.


I get that but I quite like that evenness about the recording. Its just how we connect with the performance we hear. Which is your fave, Mandryka? I'd guess the Zaide. If so I wouldn't argue. It's a lovely performance and some/many will prefer it to my choice.  Vive la difference.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This quartet has the typical Haydn magic in that it has an apparently simple, inviting, rococo surface which teems with ambiguities and unanswered questions the more you listen. F# minor was certainly not a commonly-used key before the Romantic era and Bach reserved it for his most anguished outpourings. Though the Classical period aesthetic limits the emotional range of the composer (IMO of course, I know some disagree but I have a tough time with some of the common tropes of the style), I love the sense of gentle but inexorable tragic persistence that fills the first, third, and fourth movements. The first movement works the least for me because the development seems rather curtailed and the ideas unduly recycled, but it's still a fine piece with a surprising but uneasy ending in the major. The Andante took a while for me to appreciate - it sounded a bit safe and standard at first - but I love the episodic developments which feature some quite dark and lush harmonies. The minuet is very effective and we can hear the gradual move away from the stereotypical leisurely dance which would be fully transformed by Beethoven. Then that extraordinary compact jewel of a finale, with no note unnecessarily placed. Donald Tovey said that it had the same tragic breadth as Beethoven Op. 131, and that's extreme to say the least, but I can see what he's saying - it's a remarkable ride. Another solid all-around effort from Papa H., though I don't think anything will displace Op. 20 in my affections - the two minor key works from that opus that we did previously have become two of my all-time favorite quartets.

Unlike the "Bird," I don't mind the more "serious" approach for this one because it is more that kind of music, but _sturm und drang_ does not rule out levity and charm, and I still need to hear a smiling nonchalance in the playing. The first I heard was the Tatrai, who I just think were two tight and rigid for their own good. I've never really understood the acclaim for their Haydn; it's an unusual sound, but there's always an element of detached blandness that doesn't leave me coming back. Meanwhile, the Zaïde are a cold water bath with their astringent HIP sound, but what sounded to me like some intonation slips (perhaps just getting used to the different sound?), the cold Andante (perhaps my biggest gripe with HIP in general is taking slow movements way too fast with short, clipped phrases) though the individual lines in the finale were very clearly heard. Which leaves the Auryn and Buchberger. The former is always dependable, but the latter had more character to my ears, with some really nicely-placed inflections and rubati, underlining major points as necessary but not exaggerating them. Despite the relate briskness of their Andante, the Buchbergers take the cake of these four recordings with their beautifully relaxed but always alert and pointed style.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I get that. I quite like that evenness about the recording. Its just what we feel in the performances we hear that connects with us. Which is your fave, Mandryka? I'd guess the Zaide. If so I wouldn't argue. It's a lovely performance and some/many will prefer it to my choice.  Vive la difference.


London Haydn has a sound which I like, and I respect their seriousness. Lindsay give an inspired performance.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This quartet has the typical Haydn magic in that it has an apparently simple, inviting, rococo surface which teems with ambiguities and unanswered questions the more you listen. F# minor was certainly not a commonly-used key before the Romantic era and Bach reserved it for his most anguished outpourings. Though the Classical period aesthetic limits the emotional range of the composer (IMO of course, I know some disagree but I have a tough time with some of the common tropes of the style), I love the sense of gentle but inexorable tragic persistence that fills the first, third, and fourth movements. The first movement works the least for me because the development seems rather curtailed and the ideas unduly recycled, but it's still a fine piece with a surprising but uneasy ending in the major. The Andante took a while for me to appreciate - it sounded a bit safe and standard at first - but I love the episodic developments which feature some quite dark and lush harmonies. The minuet is very effective and we can hear the gradual move away from the stereotypical leisurely dance which would be fully transformed by Beethoven. Then that extraordinary compact jewel of a finale, with no note unnecessarily placed. Donald Tovey said that it had the same tragic breadth as Beethoven Op. 131, and that's extreme to say the least, but I can see what he's saying - it's a remarkable ride. Another solid all-around effort from Papa H., though I don't think anything will displace Op. 20 in my affections - the two minor key works from that opus that we did previously have become two of my all-time favorite quartets.
> 
> Unlike the "Bird," I don't mind the more "serious" approach for this one because it is more that kind of music, but _sturm und drang_ does not rule out levity and charm, and I still need to hear a smiling nonchalance in the playing. The first I heard was the Tatrai, who I just think were two tight and rigid for their own good. I've never really understood the acclaim for their Haydn; it's an unusual sound, but there's always an element of detached blandness that doesn't leave me coming back. Meanwhile, the Zaïde are a cold water bath with their astringent HIP sound, but what sounded to me like some intonation slips (perhaps just getting used to the different sound?), the cold Andante (perhaps my biggest gripe with HIP in general is taking slow movements way too fast with short, clipped phrases) though the individual lines in the finale were very clearly heard. Which leaves the Auryn and Buchberger. The former is always dependable, but the latter had more character to my ears, with some really nicely-placed inflections and rubati, underlining major points as necessary but not exaggerating them. Despite the relate briskness of their Andante, the Buchbergers take the cake of these four recordings with their beautifully relaxed but always alert and pointed style.


I agree that Buchberger is very good indeed, and in fact whenever I've heard them I've been quite impressed, I suspect (but I don't know) that they are more reliable, consistent than Auryn.

It's strange that, given the quality of the music, there aren't more venerable performances. Nothing from Pro Arte, for example, or Vienna Konzerthaus, as far as I can see.


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## Kreisler jr

I haven't heard either in this particular quartet and the Buchberger's have nice energy but wrt intonation, beauty of sound, generally professional level the Auryn is in a different league (although I can agree that the Auryn can tend to beautiful but bland).

Pro Arte had only two different ones (3 and 6, IIRC) from op.50. (I don't know how they scheduled stuff but some of the more famous, like Emperor, are missing, so they apparently did not go for favorites first and there is probably no deeper reason which were recorded before the project stalled.)

I think this is not a very rococo-like piece (and there is a good reason anyway that rococo is rarely used in music history as a style). Nevertheless, the minor mode for Haydn seems often as here "serious" but not tragic or highly dramatic (this was a bit different in the minor pieces in op.20 or the symphonies like 44,45,49 etc.). It seems more like a play with contrasts although I find the minor sections of the andante rather dark and strange. I still find the first movement quite brilliant with the simply effective transformation in the the A major version of the motto theme etc.

I never heard the Tokyo. It is unfortunate that few people care for chamber music; otherwise I am sure we'd have had a box of their DG recordings. I think the op.50 was only once internationally on CD and the two from op.20 and one or two from op.76? never were on CD. (DG also missed "complete box" for the LaSalle Qt. but they had more re-issues of some recordings.)


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I haven't heard either in this particular quartet and the Buchberger's have nice energy but wrt intonation, beauty of sound, generally professional level the Auryn is in a different league (although I can agree that the Auryn can tend to beautiful but bland).


The Auryn are simplifiers, reducers. In their hands Haydn's music becomes homogeneous in timbre, principally melody oriented, tonally pure and concordant.


----------



## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> It just seems to be comparatively lifeless, workmanlike, in the first movement.


I didn't know the work or the few recordings of it that I had that well and have so far only played the recordings available to me through in a quick overall survey. During this I woke up to the Tatrai recording in the slow movement - which really caught me. I'm not sure about their first movement yet. I certainly didn't object to it. I will be doing some more serious listening today or tomorrow. So far I also particularly enjoyed the Tartrai, the Tokyo and the London Haydn Quartet.

I do usually enjoy the Tatrai's Haydn a lot but I do also recognise some of the objections others have raised about their way with Haydn. Indeed if I had only read the critiques I might have just avoided them: I know too many Haydn chamber performances that seem irredeemably dull to me and would assume I would find more with the Tatrai. But I often find their way with Haydn compelling.


----------



## Kreisler jr

As I said, I have not heard the Auryns in this quartet and I was disappointed when I listened to their op.33/3 a few weeks ago, so I can well imagine they are bit bland here. But one might as well say, they play for those who don't need overspicing by mannerism or just poor playing/intonation (which seems a bit like preferring the burnt schnitzel to the perfectly prepared one...).


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## Mandryka

This simplification tendency is something I’m quite serious about, though I’ve by no means heard all their Haydn, but it is there in what I have heard. It’s clearly a winning formula and in music which I personally find quite hard - some of op 33 is an example — I appreciate what they do, I appreciate being spoon fed hooks and tunes. 

Yo-yo Ma does this too in his last recording of the Bach cello suites, and he does it very well. I think for many people it’s exactly what they’ve been looking for, it’s all they need.

Auryn should record the Babbitt quartets. I think the Diotima Quartet come close to doing it for Schoenberg.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> (which seems a bit like preferring the burnt schnitzel to the perfectly prepared one...).


Hard to know what to say about that. Adjusting pitches by microtones to embellish harmonies is clearly an option for someone who plays an unfretted string instrument. Someone I know who plays in string quartets told me it is an entirely natural thing to do, a major part of the art. Equal temperament is not perfection, and is not even the HIP option as far as I know in 18th and 19th century music.


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## Bwv 1080

Another great Haydn quartet, to me clearly there are '2 themes' contra the caricature of Haydn's sonata 'form' - alot of modern scholarship prefers 'sonata style' vs 'sonata form' as the textbook form was something codified around analysis of Beethoven in the later 19th century.

Find the 4th movement odd - it is so short relative to the rest of the piece. The exposition of the very short 4-beat fugue theme strikes me as needing something in front of it and more episodes. I appreciate that its not a 20 minute monstrosity that Beethoven or Reger would write, but it could have more


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## StevehamNY

Not much to discuss re: album covers as we had another Haydn not long ago, so instead I'll share this brief musical image from the NYC subway system last night, where I happened to see a college-age woman wearing this shirt:









I did a double-take, then was slightly proud of myself for getting the point (the text from the website selling this shirt says, "Tired of hearing people say they have played/listened to contemporary music only to find out they were talking about a composer who has been dead for decades?"). Then I wondered how many other people on the subway would get this. Or if she'd even care.

Then I had to wonder if she was a music student who occasionally played her violin wearing a ski glove. (Callback!)

And finally, at the end of the night when I was on my way back home on the train, I played Schoenberg's SQ1 in my headphones as a tribute.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

StevehamNY said:


> Not much to discuss re: album covers as we had another Haydn not long ago, so instead I'll share this brief musical image from the NYC subway system last night, where I happened to see a college-age woman wearing this shirt:
> 
> View attachment 157115
> 
> 
> I did a double-take, then was slightly proud of myself for getting the point (the text from the website selling this shirt says, "Tired of hearing people say they have played/listened to contemporary music only to find out they were talking about a composer who has been dead for decades?"). Then I wondered how many other people on the subway would get this. Or if she'd even care.
> 
> Then I had to wonder if she was a music student who occasionally played her violin wearing a ski glove. (Callback!)
> 
> And finally, at the end of the night when I was on my way back home on the train, I played Schoenberg's SQ1 in my headphones as a tribute.


Although an amusing story, do people really refer to Schoenberg as contemporary? I think "modern" is the common epithet


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## Malx

Breaking from my usual format of not reading other people's posts before sampling for fear of being influenced I came to the quartet late this week (Tuesday evening) having read a number of opinions.

I listened to what I thought a representative selection on Qobuz as, shock horror, another quartet not in the collection - my wallet is qua(i)vering as I type - Auryn, Amati, Buchberger & Zaide.

I went straight to Mandryka's initial suggestion of the Quatuor Zaide then for contrast the Auryn & Amati quartets finally trying the Buchbergers thinking of them as potentially middle ground.

The Zaide came as a bit of a shock in the sense that here was a minor key quartet sounding lively, spritely, refreshing and at times almost playful. Put beside this recording the Auryn and Amati recordings sounded somewhat stately, plush, warm, whatever. Turning to the Buchbergers I was hoping for something that was comfortably in between the extremes already experienced and to a degree that was the case but over the next couple of days, including most of this afternoon, I keep returning to the Zaide.

This, I suspect, is a recording that is unlikely to be chosen by the critics as a library selection but as it gave me the most pleasure it will be winging its way shortly to find a space on my shelves.

Thanks for the suggestion Mandryka, without it I would have been unlikely to find this recording.


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## Merl

Although I don't fully agree with you on the Auryn's Haydn, Mandryka, you are right that their approach is more homogenous. Sometimes it works really well for me (some of their op.20 set, in particular). Elsewhere I often prefer the approach of others and this was certainly the case in this quartet where I found their opening movement too bland (they only just scraped into my recommended pile because they were much better in the subsequent movements). I felt the Leipzigers were a lot more interesting here and the Zaides nailed it too (as myself and others have said the Zaide was definitely a performance that puts a smile on your face). I try not to generalise too much about performances, and don't have any biases or favourites, as a quartet can nail one account then completely mess up the next one, even within the same set. I can think of a few ensembles, in Beethoven especially, who do the early quartets justice and mess up the later ones (but others may probably feel differently).


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## Bwv 1080

Do people actually purchase CDs for this thread?


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Do people actually purchase CDs for this thread?


*For* the thread or* as a result* of this thread?


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> *For* the thread or* as a result* of this thread?


Either, but Merl I figure you already own all of them

I just stream everything on IDAGIO, so some stuff like the London Haydn I cant get, but most recording mentioned here are available


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> *For* the thread or* as a result* of this thread?


I absolutely buy CDs because of this thread! Probably a dozen by now?

[We've covered this before, but having a few recording musicians as friends reminds me that these guys make ZIP from streaming.]

[Not that they're getting rich on CDs, but still!]


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## Bwv 1080

StevehamNY said:


> I absolutely buy CDs because of this thread! Probably a dozen by now?
> 
> [We've covered this before, but having a few recording musicians as friends reminds me that these guys make ZIP from streaming.]
> 
> [Not that they're getting rich on CDs, but still!]


Well, IDAGIO pays performers per minute of listening time, not per track - so a 30 minute work pays more than a 2 minute piece and they dont aggregate subscribers - so if 100% of my listening this month is the Auryn Quartet then they get all of the royalty piece of my $10 subscription


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## BlackAdderLXX

Bwv 1080 said:


> Do people actually purchase CDs for this thread?


I don't buy physical CDs but I do purchase albums both for and because of this thread. I just picked up Quatuor Zaïde.


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## Mandryka

Anyone read this?


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Either, but Merl I figure you already own all of them


Not at all. I have a lot of duplication of stuff I love but if I'm not familiar I just stream (like you, Bwv 1080) and sometimes buy as a result of comparative listening. So, for example, I have stacks of Janacek, Beethoven, Britten, Ravel, Dvorak, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Haydn and Prokofiev quartets on cd and the HD (as they're personal faves) but few of some other composers. Some works are well served by Spotify, etc. Others get short shrift.


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## Bwv 1080

Found this, which is cool









These are proportions of expositions of first movements of Haydn SQs the principal theme is indicated in orange and the
transition follows it in yellow. The type of medial caesura in the exposition is given at the end of the yellow bar. The second theme is indicated in blue, followed by the closing zone in purple.

Full paper here

https://www.rit.edu/affiliate/haydn...te.haydn/files/article_pdfs/cortenspdfmer.pdf


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Anyone read this?
> 
> View attachment 157124


No, any good? Have the Chopin Ballade book in that series. Wary of older analysis as it all seems to be measuring Haydn by Beethoven's standards. Also the newer schema theory is of most interest to me


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## annaw

Bwv 1080 said:


> Do people actually purchase CDs for this thread?


There's one CD I've definitely bought just as a result of one of Merl's recommendations, which was Shostakovich quartet's recording of Borodin's 2nd quartet, which I really cherish! There are possibly more recordings from this thread which I've got digitally but I'm not entirely sure. For the time being, I mainly use streaming because I'm on a budget . I hope to start building a proper CD collection in the future though.


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## Merl

annaw said:


> There's one CD I've definitely bought just as a result of one of Merl's recommendations, which was Shostakovich quartet's recording of Borodin's 2nd quartet, which I really cherish! .....


Thanks annaw. That Shostakovich Quartet recording was one that I discovered too and bought as a result (I think it cost me £2 on Fleabay) but thats why I do my comparisons, to find gems like that. I played it again a few weeks back and loved it all over again.


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## Kreisler jr

I probably had it on some wishlist before I came to this forum but I recently bought the live Tetzlaff and friends Dvorak op.106 (with the wind serenade) after seeing again positive comments here, and it seems an extremely good disc after one listening.


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## Carmina Banana

I am enjoying the comments and listening to this quartet. I won't say anything about recordings yet. I want to get a couple more listens in. 
There are a lot of different topics springing up and I am itching to comment, but first I wanted to ask a question:
Since keyboards were not tuned in equal temperament as we know it and a piano piece or chamber piece involving piano in F# minor would sound different to Haydn than one in A minor, what happened when there was no piano? Did the quartet reflect the characteristics of a keyboard version of the key or create their own more flexible temperament? 
A similar situation might be an 18th century choir who is frequently playing with an organ and then performs a piece unaccompanied. Do they incorporate the temperament of the organ? After all, I don't think the characteristics of the different keys was seen as a bad thing. 
I have my own theory about this, but I'm interested in thoughts of others.


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## SearsPoncho

Bwv 1080 said:


> Do people actually purchase CDs for this thread?


Absolutely! I even bought a boxed set, the Fitzwilliam Quartet's complete Shostakovich*, because of Merl's recommendation (I believe it was Merl?) and this thread. This is a dangerous thread, hence the initiation ceremony.

*I bought it despite already having two sets from the Borodin Quartet.


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## Burbage

It's Friday. So here goes:

When dawn breaks over Eisenstadt in 1787, it also breaks over Haydn who is there, or thereabouts, barring occasional trips to Vienna. His reputation may have gone abroad, and money may have been flowing in, but, according to a broad consensus of musicohistorians, or historicomusicolologists, or whatever, he's stuck in a palace, fretting in solitary isolation, kept from friends, collaborators, and the Musical Life of Vienna in general, by the State's refusal to invest in public transport.

I am not hugely convinced by this scenario. Haydn, after all, has managed to gain admittance to the same masonic lodge as Mozart, secure commissions for the six "Paris" symphonies from the Chevalier de Saint-Georges and churn out a lugubrious Seven Words for a canon in Cadiz, which hardly suggests the life of an anchorite. Besides, we all have to live somewhere and, though Puccini might have dramatically differed, three meals a day in a heatable palace seems to do more for longevity than no meals a day in an urban garret. Haydn mightn't have been entirely happy, but it's over a decade since he had to churn out a baryton trio or opera, and he can concentrate on writing, and selling, symphonies, which not only gave him a parallel income, but brought him to the attention of the musical world, even in places he wasn't.

Mostly symphonies, at least. Three years before this, as we know, he'd received a commission, and 300 florins, for a set of string quartets that, to date, had failed to appear, leaving Haydn with an obligation that loomed like a hangover as the dismal sun paled the ink-dark clouds over the dankly-wooded drainage basin of the shallow Neuseidler See. Perhaps it was a sense of duty that broke the spell and forced Haydn to the grindstone. Or maybe, ever the opportunist, it was an ulterior motive that dawned.

Haydn had, it seems, sent unsolicited copies of the Paris symphonies to the new Prussian Emperor, a corpulent cellist who responded, presumably as expected, with a gold ring. If, as seems likely, an Emperor of the day trumped a Prince, a Canon or even a Chevalier, then this was a canny career move; but second-hand symphonies could only go so far. A ring, though worth something, wasn't a new commission. In the absence of a new commission, though, an old commission might do as well and, though it wasn't from the Emperor himself, could be made to serve a very similar purpose. It is surely no coincidence that these quartets feature the cello more prominently than the previous set and, more obviously, are dedicated to that new Emperor, apparently (though accounts vary) at Haydn's insistence.

At the time, 300 florins wasn't so very much money, and 300 florins that had long since evaporated must have seemed worth very little indeed. By comparison, each one of the Paris symphonies had brought in that amount* of the Chevalier Saint-George's creditors' money - so it's no surprise to find Haydn chiselling out his contract, quietly selling the English rights behind Artaria's back, exploiting jurisdictional differences and contractual loopholes for personal gain in a way that, 250 years later, seems almost charitable but was arguably a significant step in turning the musical arts into a branch of jurisprudence, a twist of the ratchet on the road to perdition and Spotify.

The prospects of Imperial preference might have been the only motive Haydn needed to write the set, but choice of F sharp minor for the traditional glum number still seems a little odd. According to experts, keys have associations with moods and the prominent such expert at the time, one CFD Schubart, had written his famous list in 1784, just as Haydn was preparing to ignore his new commission. In that, Schubart describes F sharp minor as "a gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language." Unlike Haydn, however, Schubart didn't find a publisher till 1806, so that'll have made no difference at all. And, though Schubart wasn't the first to think of keys in terms of moods, or even write about them, nobody seems to have bothered with F sharp minor before, presumably because in the well-tempered tunings of the time, it produced a good few awkward dissonances. The only notable piece in it at the time was Haydn's own "Farewell" symphony, so I'm tempted to think that that's why he chose it - to remind his publisher of what they might lose if they chose to kick up a fuss.

I'll leave it to others to dissect the dramatic first movement, the plangent beauty of the second, the ethereal harmonies of the minuet and the fugal finale. I've been listening to the London Haydn Quartet, as I have done for about five years. I tried to listen to the Lindsays', too, but think that will appeal better to connoisseurs of analogue formats who'll presumably be more easily wowed, if not fluttered, by their bolder approach to tonality. I will acknowledge that the LHQ isn't always to my taste, and some of their recordings have a certain astringent, scratchy quality, like an angry iguana in a terrarium that's too small, but I don't hear much of that here.

_* 30 Louis d'Or (including French publishing rights) converts to 300 Vienna florins, as far as I can tell. Those wishing to quibble are cordially invited to waste half an evening with Pierre Marteu's Eighteenth-Century Currency Converter, which is just as much fun as it sounds: l_


----------



## Mandryka

Carmina Banana said:


> I am enjoying the comments and listening to this quartet. I won't say anything about recordings yet. I want to get a couple more listens in.
> There are a lot of different topics springing up and I am itching to comment, but first I wanted to ask a question:
> Since keyboards were not tuned in equal temperament as we know it and a piano piece or chamber piece involving piano in F# minor would sound different to Haydn than one in A minor, what happened when there was no piano? Did the quartet reflect the characteristics of a keyboard version of the key or create their own more flexible temperament?
> A similar situation might be an 18th century choir who is frequently playing with an organ and then performs a piece unaccompanied. Do they incorporate the temperament of the organ? After all, I don't think the characteristics of the different keys was seen as a bad thing.
> I have my own theory about this, but I'm interested in thoughts of others.


Here's the first page of a paper on JSTOR


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## Enthusiast

I have listened to the five recordings I have chosen to access a couple of times now and find myself with preferences! But first some explanation: I am not sure that I greatly like this quartet as much as many of Haydn's quartets. I can hear what many here enjoy about the Auryn recording (and the same applies to the Kodaly Quartet's record). They play beautifully but I am not sure I find their performances distinguished by any distinctive character. So what I get from them are excellent performances that do not especially convince me about a work that I am relatively lukewarm about. 

I am insufficiently articulate and musically educated to understand why but I did find myself warming more to the recordings by the Tokyo, Tatrai and the London Haydn Quartets. I will try to explain why.

The Tokyo Quartet starts brightly and with lots of spirit. Their pacing remains appropriate and they turn in a nicely unfolding and very (to my mind) Haydneque account of the all-important Andante, which is surely the heart and soul of the work. They keep things moving in the minuet. That's the way I like Haydn minuets. The little fugue finale is also good and the Tokyo's sense of dynamics works well. The Tokyo use fairly similar speeds for all but the first movement but the whole work is not so long and only the andante is much longer than 5 minutes. 

The Tatrai sound rather sombre - especially after the Tokyo recording - but their somewhat darker hue and (I'm sorry but I can't think of a different way of saying it) the "humanity" that I hear in their playing work well for me in this work. Their first movement is a little slower than some but I don't think it makes much difference except when played just after a faster one. Their slow movement is lovely - albeit again in a somewhat dark way - and is what really wins me over to their account. Their minuet is just a little four square - something I dislike in Haydn minuets - and the movement comes over as nothing special. Their fugue finale takes is back to the world of their first movement. There is a serious feel to it.

I can hear why some find their sound a little ugly, but I enjoyed the London Haydn Quartet's recording as much as any and liked the rather rough sound of their original instruments. Just occasionally their phrasing seems unusual and this may also result in some hearing ugliness. But I really liked the plangent sound of much of their playing. It makes the music more characterful and interesting. Their playing in all movements is attractive to me - I did greatly prefer the Tokyo's minuet but liked the briskness of the LHQ's finale - but it is the sound that dominates my impressions. As I say, for me it gives the music an edge.

Don't ask me to choose between these three. They all give me different things. I suppose that the Tokyo's account is the safest bet but it does also have some character and I like it a lot.


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## Bwv 1080

Carmina Banana said:


> I am enjoying the comments and listening to this quartet. I won't say anything about recordings yet. I want to get a couple more listens in.
> There are a lot of different topics springing up and I am itching to comment, but first I wanted to ask a question:
> Since keyboards were not tuned in equal temperament as we know it and a piano piece or chamber piece involving piano in F# minor would sound different to Haydn than one in A minor, what happened when there was no piano? Did the quartet reflect the characteristics of a keyboard version of the key or create their own more flexible temperament?
> A similar situation might be an 18th century choir who is frequently playing with an organ and then performs a piece unaccompanied. Do they incorporate the temperament of the organ? After all, I don't think the characteristics of the different keys was seen as a bad thing.
> I have my own theory about this, but I'm interested in thoughts of others.


Given that absolute pitch levels were not established and generally lower, the issue with strings a) the range of the instruments - so does Haydn want to utilize, say the lowest notes on a cello for a dominant pedal or b) the tone color provided by the resonance of the open strings. Given the GDAE violin tuning, F# will sound dryer than G or F as the tonic and dominant are not reinforced by the sympathetic vibration of open strings. However the relative major key of A is resonant as the tonic is an open string on all the instruments in the qt. So if Haydn wanted to contrast a tense, acerbic minor sound with a very resonant, open major sound, F# minor would be a good key choice


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## Kreisler jr

f# minor seems a fairly rare key, though. There is one Handel suite, Haydn's Farewell symphony and a piano trio, a few pieces from Bach's b minor mass, probably a few Scarlatti sonatas and maybe a few slow movements from A major pieces (such as Mozart's K 488). Next one historically would be Schumann's piano sonata in the key.


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## Mandryka

I picked up somewhere that f# minor is difficult for the string players.


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> I picked up somewhere that f# minor is difficult for the string players.


Why would that be if A major is a common key?


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Why would that be if A major is a common key?


I remembered where I got it from in fact -- it was Hans Keller's book on Haydn quartets. But looking again what he seems to be saying is that this particular quartet is difficult, apparently in all the instruments.

I think it was the comments like "Haydn liked to make life difficult for his string players" and "well founded fear of f sharp minor" which made me think it was not an easy key.


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## Carmina Banana

Bwv 1080 said:


> Given that absolute pitch levels were not established and generally lower, the issue with strings a) the range of the instruments - so does Haydn want to utilize, say the lowest notes on a cello for a dominant pedal or b) the tone color provided by the resonance of the open strings. Given the GDAE violin tuning, F# will sound dryer than G or F as the tonic and dominant are not reinforced by the sympathetic vibration of open strings. However the relative major key of A is resonant as the tonic is an open string on all the instruments in the qt. So if Haydn wanted to contrast a tense, acerbic minor sound with a very resonant, open major sound, F# minor would be a good key choice


Good point about open strings. A major is a resonant and "easy" key for string players I think because you have open A, E and D on the violin. However, there is also a lot of F# major in this quartet, whose triad has no open string as a reference. Also, less of the resonance you were speaking of. 
I have skimmed the article suggested by Mandryka and it is very interesting (though I will have to go back for a more thorough read). I don't think it totally answered my question about the relationship between keyboard temperaments and strings, but it does refer to problems strings and keyboards had. In general, string players seemed to be vacillating between systems of tuning that were not compatible with attempts at well-tempered keyboards. The attempts at well-tempered systems (I think) were what led to characteristics of different keys. So, left to their own devices, keys could be pretty much the same (except for the whole open string thing). To give you an idea of how confusing this article is, at one point D#s were lower than Ebs. Then it reversed to the more intuitive D# being higher. 
A couple things have never changed, I think: string players still generally do not like playing with pianos (they resent having to play out of tune to match the piano) and there is still some confusion about whether to tune to pure fifths or temper them.


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## Merl

Interesting that there's discussion on intonation. The guy whose blog reviews I used to contribute to was a 2nd violinist in a quartet and he said intonation was like "trying to nail jello to the wall". I'm not a professional musician. I play guitar to an intermediate standard (on a good day) and listen to all these quartets expecting nearly 'perfect' intonation but really there's no such thing. My aforementioned friend used to call intonation a "compromise" and I know it was his biggest headache. Just wondering, how important is intonation to y'all in a recording?


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> My aforementioned friend used to call intonation a "compromise" and I know it was his biggest headache. Just wondering, how important is intonation to y'all in a recording?


It's pretty important to me. I don't think I have 'perfect' pitch but it is pretty close and pitchy stuff hits me like a glass of orange juice after brushing your teeth.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

The comments about open strings are a little wide of the mark in professional practice because these notes are invariably played (apart from G) on stopped strings (i.e. with the 4th finger). Whilst the finger used is a bit of a generalisation, it means that there's rarely an open string's "wider" sound being used. Also, assuming fairly fast-moving music, any added resonance would be barely noticeable.

In amateur playing, things are different, with open strings being used up to around intermediate level (c. 3/4 years of tuition). Slower tempi would also allow resonance of open strings to be noticeable.

Turning to tuning, this is a major bug-bear of mine. I was brought up singing in church and cathedral choirs in the UK, where good intonation is prized. But that tends to be relative pitch because many choirs have a tendency to go flat during longer works. It can be difficult to tell where a choir or part goes flat because the perfect intervals (4ths, 5ths and 8ves) will usually remain exactly in tune - but only with each other.

As a music student, I was lucky to learn to play the sitar, which can have as many as 24 divisions in an 8ve. This challenges the ear into finer divisions and can be a source of frustration and disagreement with colleagues who didn't have a similar grounding.


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## Enthusiast

BlackAdderLXX said:


> It's pretty important to me. I don't think I have 'perfect' pitch but it is pretty close and pitchy stuff hits me like a glass of orange juice after brushing your teeth.


Use orange flavoured toothpaste.


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## Bwv 1080

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> The comments about open strings are a little wide of the mark in professional practice because these notes are invariably played (apart from G) on stopped strings (i.e. with the 4th finger). Whilst the finger used is a bit of a generalisation, it means that there's rarely an open string's "wider" sound being used. Also, assuming fairly fast-moving music, any added resonance would be barely noticeable.


The issue is not whether open strings are bowed, but the sympathetic vibration when they are unplayed. I'm a guitarist, so maybe I'm missing something particular to violins or cellos, but on guitar unplayed open strings add some resonance - reinforcing their first few partials


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

It's true that orchestral string instruments will work in the way you describe - but to a limited degree. With only 4 strings and less than 2 8ves range between lowest and highest, fewer partials will be brought to sound.

The sitar family, on the other hand, can have as many as 19 sympathetic strings (including the drone strings). This is the foundation of the family's unique echoing sound. But it comes at a heavy cost to the player - it takes me a good 30 minutes to tune my surbahar (bass sitar).


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## Carmina Banana

Looks I can quickly get my listening impressions of the Haydn before we are on to the next quartet.

I started with the Tokyo. I was expecting loads of refinement and sophistication and I was not disappointed. I liked it but didn't feel like it was as deep and personal as it could have been.

Then I listened to the Festetics. I did not like. I feel like someone did a bunch of research and came up with a list of things *not* to do when playing Haydn. What was left are notes. Some of them not very pleasant.

By contrast, when I heard the first few notes of the Nomos quartet, I was immediately entranced. They are able to convey so much human expression in this piece. There are moments of grave seriousness that turn on a dime into a playful lightheartedness. They take great care with the nuance of every phrase. The menuet is elevated from a dance into a work of art and I'm not sure the other recordings I have heard do that.
Somehow this is different than artists who have an overly precious approach to Mozart and Haydn. That never appeals to me. This recording really brought the piece to life for me.


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## Merl

Whose pick is it this week, ACB?


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## starthrower

From ACB's post # 3314

On Sunday, we will have come to the end of our third round. Sticking to the same order of nominators as last time, this will be our schedule:

Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1050
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast

The list of quartets already covered is in post #1


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> Whose pick is it this week, ACB?


Josquin13 is up! He had already acknowledged it, so I didn't post it. However, I will make sure to repost the list every Friday for the convenience of everyone.

I am reading the discussions on tuning, etc. with great interest but I don't know much about it and therefore don't have much to add. Mandryka's Keller book on Haydn quartets is definitely going on my wishlist though!


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## Josquin13

To finish up with Haydn's quartet before I present my choice for next week...,

I don't think a fine ensemble like the Auryn Quartet should be faulted or criticized because their performance doesn't have the quirkiness and spikiness that one hears in a period instrument performance. Period performances are always going to be different in character from modern instrument performances, interpretatively. Since they most often make the music sound like other music, due to the period bows and gut strings producing different sounds, and possessing different capabilities: which are often clearly advantages, at least in regards to what an 18th century composer would have expected to hear. However, IMO, the Auryns are never less than musical and refined.

Nevertheless, as I wrote earlier in the week, I still prefer the Tokyo Quartet to the Auryn and Amati Quartets, and to the Kodaly Quartet, as well, whose No. 4 was new to me this week. The Tokyos are more energized & spirited, & offer a bolder and more brilliant attack to this quartet than the other three--& particularly in the first movement, where it's most important, in my view. They also do so with equally good intonation. In short, I think it's a very worthwhile No. 4 (& Op. 50 set), & it baffles me that anyone can find much fault in their performance--among modern instrument versions. Yet, at the same time, I did like the Kodaly Quartet's No. 4, as well, along with the Auryn & Amati Quartets--all three are beautiful performances, in my estimation, despite that they don't quite displace the Tokyo Quartet (at least, not for me). (EDIT: After reading Carmina Banana's post above, maybe I should have listened to the Nomos SQ, too: which is a set that I own and actually used to recommend, before I got some complaints in response, so now I'm hesitant to do so...)

As for the Zaide Quartet, they have the same energized forward drive and brilliant attack as the Tokyo Quartet, which I liked. But I'd put their performance in a different category from the Auryn, Amati, Kodaly, and to an extent the Tokyo quartets, since they are so decidedly HIP in their approach. For example, the Auryns, Amati and Kodaly are not nearly as energized and spirited at the opening of the 1st movement, as the Zaide and Tokyos (& Lindsays) are, and that's a significant difference, in my opinion. So, if you want an HIP account played on modern instruments, I would agree that the Zaides make a good recommendation (although it's the only HIP version on modern instruments that I've ever heard of this quartet.)

https://music.amazon.com/albums/B07JMFRG85?do=play&ref=dm_ws_dp_ald_bb_phfa_xx_xx_xx

I've now listened to the London Haydn Quartet's period recording, & thought it was better than what I had previously encountered from this group earlier in their Haydn cycle. Their Op. 50 No. 4 is a very good performance; although it did take some adjusting to, and interestingly, I liked it more the second time around.

Yet I still prefer the Op. 50, No. 4 by the Festetics Quartet. Their performance is a bit more fluid and seamlessly played, and less quirky, with their accents or stresses within their phrasing consistently well placed, to my ears. They also found plenty of wit & humor in Haydn, and take delight in it, in contrast to the London Haydn Quartet, who are maybe a bit more on the serious side? I'm not quite sure I understand why Merl & others didn't like the Festetic performance, but I think it's very good:






With that said, I may still buy the London Haydn Quartet's Op. 50 set, because it is so different from the Festetics. I like owning different views of my favorite music, & suspect that I might appreciate the LHQ's performance more with further listening (unless a better period recording of the Op. 50 set were to come along, which is a possibility considering how under recorded the Op. 50 set is among period ensembles, & how fine the music is ...)

Therefore, I mostly finished the week where I started out, with the same top two recommendations; plus a couple of extras that were new to me, which I liked, on first impression:

--Among modern instrument performances, the Tokyo Quartet remains my top pick among non-HIP performances (although it's long overdue to be remastered by DG), while my second choice is the Kodaly Quartet, & then the Auryn & Amati Quartets, who are nevertheless all very good, as noted.

--Among period instrument performances, the Festetics Quartet remains my 1st choice, but I'd say the London Haydn Quartet is a close second, for now. However, I should point out that they've got the field entirely to themselves, as neither group has any other competition.

--Lastly, among HIP performances on modern instruments, my first pick is now the Zaide Quartet, who were easily the most HIP of the modern instrument groups that I listened to this week, & therefore stood out.

Thanks, for a terrific choice this week, Mandryka. I really enjoyed hearing this quartet played in a variety of different ways.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Any time Sunday 



.............


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## cheregi

Just popping in to say I too have thoroughly appreciated, and learned a lot from, the recent discussion of string quartet intonation! May have to dig back through this thread a little in search of similarly enlightening discussions...


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## StevehamNY

cheregi said:


> Just popping in to say I too have thoroughly appreciated, and learned a lot from, the recent discussion of string quartet intonation! May have to dig back through this thread a little in search of similarly enlightening discussions...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Any newcomers to the thread (from the last couple of days, PeterF and Cheregi), just pipe up if you’d like to be added to the list to nominate! It will be a long time since our list is so long, so you will have close to a half year to think of your choice:lol:


----------



## Josquin13

I considered a large number of quartets for my choice this week. (Since my turn comes around so infrequently, I've now amassed a gigantic list of possible choices!) Those that are familiar with my posts on other threads will know that I particularly enjoy discovering interesting works that are lesser known & neglected, or 'off the beaten' path. I had planned to offer such a string quartet for this week, having lately re-listened to a handful of quartets that fit the bill. However, as I was trying to make up my mind, I noticed that, surprisingly, we hadn't done Samuel Barber's String Quartet. Which is an oversight considering that this quartet is, IMO, one the better string quartets of the early to mid 20th century, and one of the finest quartets by an American composer. I also realized that it might prove embarrassing to us 'Yanks', if a non-American were to later choose the quartet for our thread one week, and especially for me, considering that Barber grew up in the same area where I was raised, outside of Philadelphia, and also went to the same summer camp in New Hampshire (albeit decades apart), where, like me, he hiked in the White Mountains, & wrote a couple of his earliest songs, such as "Dere two fella Joe". So that tipped the scale, and I decided to make Barber's string quartet my pick for the week. By the way, Barber composed his quartet between 1935-36, at aged 24-26. Here's a link to the Wikipedia page on his quartet, which also includes an incomplete discography at the bottom of the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_(Barber)

I have four excellent recordings of this quartet in my collection. Though I've probably most liked the Emerson Quartet's recording on DG, which I find is both well played & thoroughly idiomatic, I like each of the other three recordings, too--by the Chester String Quartet, Concord String Quartet (on LP), and Duke String Quartet. For some reason, American musicians and conductors and singers always sound more idiomatic to me in Barber's music, not only among the various string quartet groups that I know (of which I'd now include the Ying Quartet), but also in other music by Barber, as well: such as the recordings by Thomas Schippers, Leonard Slatkin, Leonard Bernstein, Andrew Schenck, David Zinman, Leontyne Price, Eleanor Steber, Elmar Oliveira, John Browning, Dawn Upshaw, etc. (with some exceptions of course).

I also recently listened to the Diotima Quartet's version on You Tube, which is very good, but not as idiomatic as the Emersons & others, in my view. It was, however, very interesting to hear what these French musicians make of Barber's Quartet, considering that their reading shows they see this quartet as a more modern work. For that reason, I found their playing of the two outer movements fascinating. But I also thought they were less successful in the Adagio movement (which, in case anyone doesn't know, is the original version of Barber's famous "Adagio for Strings"). While in contrast, the Emersons seem to fully understand that there is an unavoidable Romantic ethos in the Adagio movement, and therefore, I think their interpretation works better as an integrated whole.

I also used to like a Nonesuch LP recording by the Concord String Quartet, a group that premiered a good number of quartets by notable American composers back in the 1970s and 80s--recording works that were composed roughly during the period 1950-1970, by Rochberg, Druckman, Wolpe, Crumb, Feldman, etc.. However, to my surprise, it doesn't appear to have ever made it onto CD. While I have a fond memory of this recording, being that it was my first LP of Barber's quartet, I haven't heard their performance in several decades now, so my memory and high regard for their playing may or may not be trustworthy...

Which leaves the Chester String Quartet and Duke String Quartet as the other two versions that I own in my collection, and I'd rate these more or less equally.

Here's a list of all the recordings of the Barber SQ that I could come up with (to help Merl out, if he feels so inclined this week, or anyone else), & I've provided You Tube links to the performances that I have in my personal collection (except for the Concord SQ recording), along with the Diotima's performance (which I don't own): Plus, if anyone's interested, I've rated the performances on a scale of 1-5 using asterisks, five being the best--though I expect (& welcome) that Merl & others will make their own ratings over the coming week:

--Emerson String Quartet*****:













--Concord String Quartet*****: on a Nonesuch LP: https://www.amazon.com/George-Rochberg-Quarrtet-Quartet-Baritone/dp/B00MDWNTUG

--For the purposes of this thread, I've also now listened to the following very fine version of the Barber SQ by the Ying String Quartet***** (which is another excellent American group), from an album they recorded of music by Barber & Hanson, entitled, "American Anthem", which, btw, is the version of choice over at earsense.org (and you can hear it there, if interested, or on You Tube): https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Samuel-Barber-String-Quartet-Op-11/?v=nHsydUGppEI2.

--Quatour Diotima***: 




--Chester String Quartet****: 




--Duke String Quartet****: 




Here are some other recordings of the quartet, which I've not heard:

--American String Quartet (a private tape made in Barber's living room?)
--Alexander Quartet
--Cleveland Quartet
--Endellion Quartet
--Borodin Quartet
--Serafin Quartet
--Escher Quartet
--Cypress Quartet
--Tokyo Quartet
--Lindsay Quartet

In conclusion, I also wanted to add a YT link to the Dover Quartet's recording of just the Adagio movement, which they play exceptionally well, IMO: https://www.doverquartet.com/news/2...ords-samuel-barbers-famous-adagio-for-strings. Though I do wish the Dovers had recorded the rest of the quartet, & expect they will do so one day, being an American group.

Finally, as an added bonus, here is the Concord Quartet playing Barber's "Dover Beach", for baritone & string quartet, which I wanted to provide a link to, since, regrettably, the Concord's recording of the quartet isn't on You Tube, & "Dover Beach" was included on their original Nonesuch LP, where it came coupled with Barber's String Quartet & Rochberg's String Quartet No. 7: 



. For anyone that's interested, "Dover Beach" was composed by Barber when he was only 21 years old, and it is based on a poem by Matthew Arnold. In addition to the Concord's recording, with baritone Leslie Guinn, there have been a number of other fine recordings, as well--by Randall Scarlata & the Ying Quartet: 



, Thomas Hampson & the Emerson Quartet, and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau & the Juilliard Quartet; as well as a recording by Barber himself singing with the old Curtis Quartet in 1937 (as Barber was a trained baritone singer, along with being a pianist & composer): 



. The late American baritone Sanford Sylvan also used to sing "Dover Beach" in concert, but I don't think Sylvan ever recorded it (unfortunately, since he's a near ideal singer in this repertory); although I could be wrong about this. (Sylvan did, however, record Barber's Hermit Songs: 



.)

Speaking of Barber's compositions for voice, his 1947 work, "Knoxville: Summer of 1915", Op. 24--which is set to excerpts of a 1938 prose-poem by the American writer James Agee--is likewise essential listening, and a major work by Barber. I think it is his most beautiful song cycle. The work was commissioned by soprano Eleanor Steber, who premiered the piece in 1948 in Boston & made the first recording. Here are links to three different performances that I like, if anyone's curious:

Eleanor Steber: 



Leontyne Price: 



Dawn Upshaw (digital): 




P.S. I also wanted to add the following 1978 interview with Barber, which was given prior to the premiere of his Third Essay for Orchestra (in New York), where Barber discusses the genesis of the orchestral version of his Adagio for Strings, which Arturo Toscanini premiered, as well as his being frustrated by the lack of commercial recordings of his songs, among other subjects, including his friendship with Francis Poulenc: 



.

P.S.S. Here's yet another documentary interview with Barber made in his NYC apartment, given by pianist James Tocco, to celebrate the composer's 67th birthday in 1977 (in the film, the American String Quartet performs his Adagio for Strings, which may possibly indicate that Barber preferred the version for string quartet, as I do myself):






(If anyone's wondering where to start with Barber's music, I'd recommend the following two recordings, in addition to the string quartet:

1. The benchmark orchestral recordings by conductor Thomas Schippers:














https://www.amazon.com/Samuel-Barbe...chippers+barber&qid=1625938595&s=music&sr=1-1

2. While there will be some duplication here among the orchestral works performed on the Schippers album, I specifically chose the following EMI double fforte discount 2 CD reissue for Barber's Violin Concerto, with its wistful or sadly evocative, nostalgic, or perhaps elegiac feeling in the 2nd Andante movement--which I find deeply moving, & especially as it was played by violinist Elmar Oliveira, and conductor Leonard Slatkin leading the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra, who performed it as well as, if not better than anyone else that I've heard. Although you can buy the Oliveira/Slatkin recording individually, too, where it comes coupled with Howard Hanson's Symphony No. 2, "Romantic", on a single EMI CD:





.

https://www.amazon.com/Barber-Strin...violin+concerto&qid=1625938685&s=music&sr=1-6).


----------



## Merl

Nice choice, Jos. I only have the Emersons and Brodskys in this one (both very fine) so looking forward to sampling the other 25 or so recordings. And here was me thinking it would be DATM. Hahaha.

Btw, theres also the aforementioned Brodskys, Lipkind, Eberle, Ying, Aeolus, Lipkind, Vegh and Serbian quartets to consider here.


----------



## Art Rock

I have the Emerson and the Tokyo - will pick one or two of the recommendations from this thread for comparison.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Josquin13 said:


> I considered a large number of quartets for my choice this week. (Since my turn comes around so infrequently, I've now amassed a gigantic list of possible choices!) Those that are familiar with my posts on other threads will know that I particularly enjoy discovering interesting works that are lesser known & neglected, or 'off the beaten' path. I had planned to offer such a string quartet for this week, having lately re-listened to a handful of quartets that fit the bill. However, as I was trying to make up my mind, I noticed that, surprisingly, we hadn't done Samuel Barber's String Quartet. Which is an oversight considering that this quartet is, IMO, one the better string quartets of the early to mid 20th century, and one of the finest quartets by an American composer. I also realized that it might prove embarrassing to us 'Yanks', if a non-American were to later choose the quartet for our thread one week, and especially for me, considering that Barber grew up in the same area where I was raised, outside of Philadelphia, and also went to the same summer camp in New Hampshire (albeit decades apart), where, like me, he hiked in the White Mountains, & wrote a couple of his earliest songs, such as "Dere two fella Joe". So that tipped the scale, and I decided to make Barber's string quartet my pick for the week. By the way, Barber composed his quartet between 1935-36, at aged 24-26. Here's a link to the Wikipedia page on his quartet, which also includes an incomplete discography at the bottom of the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_(Barber)
> 
> I have four excellent recordings of this quartet in my collection. Though I've probably most liked the Emerson Quartet's recording on DG, which I find is both well played & thoroughly idiomatic, I like each of the other three recordings, too--by the Chester String Quartet, Concord String Quartet (on LP), and Duke String Quartet. For some reason, American musicians and conductors and singers always sound more idiomatic to me in Barber's music, not only among the various string quartet groups that I know (of which I'd now include the Ying Quartet), but also in other music by Barber: such as the recordings by Thomas Schippers, Leonard Slatkin, Leonard Bernstein, Andrew Schenck, David Zinman, Leontyne Price, Eleanor Steber, Elmar Oliveira, John Browning, Dawn Upshaw, etc. (with some exceptions of course).
> 
> I also recently listened to the Diotima Quartet's version on You Tube, which is very good, but not as idiomatic as the Emersons & others, in my view. It was, however, very interesting to hear what these French musicians make of Barber's Quartet, considering that their reading shows they see this quartet as a more modern work. For that reason, I found their playing of the two outer movements fascinating. But I also thought they were less successful in the Adagio movement (which, in case anyone doesn't know, the 2nd movement is the original version of Barber's famous "Adagio for Strings"). While in contrast, the Emersons seem to fully understand that there is an unavoidable Romantic ethos in the Adagio movement, and therefore, I think their interpretation works better as an integrated whole.
> 
> I also used to like a Nonesuch LP recording by the Concord String Quartet, a group that premiered a good number of quartets by notable American composers back in the 1970s and 80s--recording works that were composed roughly during the period 1950-1970, by Rochberg, Druckman, Wolpe, Crumb, Feldman, etc.. However, to my surprise, it doesn't appear to have ever made it onto CD. While I have a fond memory of this recording, being that it was my first LP of Barber's quartet, I haven't heard their performance in several decades now, so my memory and high regard for their playing may or may not be trustworthy...
> 
> Which leaves the Chester String Quartet and Duke String Quartet as the other two versions that I own in my collection, and I'd rate these more or less equally.
> 
> Here's a list of all the recordings of the Barber SQ that I could come up with (to help Merl out, if he feels so inclined this week, or anyone else), & I've provided You Tube links to the performances that I have in my personal collection (except for the Concord SQ recording), along with the Diotima's performance on You Tube: Plus, if anyone's interested, I've rated the performances on a scale of 1-5 using asterisks, five being the best--though I expect (& welcome) that Merl & others will make their own ratings over the coming week:
> 
> --Emerson String Quartet*****:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Concord String Quartet*****: on a Nonesuch LP: https://www.amazon.com/George-Rochberg-Quarrtet-Quartet-Baritone/dp/B00MDWNTUG
> 
> --For the purposes of this thread, I've also now listened to the following very fine version of the Barber SQ by the Ying String Quartet***** (which is another excellent American group), from an album they recorded of music by Barber & Hanson, entitled, "American Anthem", which, btw, is the version of choice over at earsense.org (and you can hear it there, if interested, or on You Tube): https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Samuel-Barber-String-Quartet-Op-11/?v=nHsydUGppEI2.
> 
> --Quatour Diotima***:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Chester String Quartet****:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --Duke String Quartet****:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some other recordings of the quartet, which I've not heard:
> 
> --American String Quartet (a private tape made in Barber's living room?)
> --Alexander Quartet
> --Cleveland Quartet
> --Endellion Quartet
> --Borodin Quartet
> --Serafin Quartet
> --Escher Quartet
> --Cypress Quartet
> --Tokyo Quartet
> --Lindsay Quartet
> 
> In conclusion, I also wanted to add a YT link to the Dover Quartet's recording of just the Adagio movement, which they play exceptionally well, IMO: https://www.doverquartet.com/news/2...ords-samuel-barbers-famous-adagio-for-strings. Though I do wish the Dovers had recorded the rest of the quartet, & expect they will do so one day, being an American group.
> 
> Finally, as an added bonus, here is the Concord Quartet playing Barber's "Dover Beach", for baritone & string quartet, which I wanted to provide a link to, since, regrettably, the Concord's recording of the quartet isn't on You Tube, & "Dover Beach" was included on their original Nonesuch LP, where it came coupled with Barber's String Quartet & Rochberg's String Quartet No. 7:
> 
> 
> 
> . For anyone that's interested, "Dover Beach" was composed by Barber when he was only 21 years old, and it is based on a poem by Matthew Arnold. In addition to the Concord's recording, with baritone Leslie Guinn, there have been a number of other fine recordings, as well--by Randall Scarlata & the Ying Quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> , Thomas Hampson & the Emerson Quartet, and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau & the Juilliard Quartet; as well as a recording by Barber himself singing with the old Curtis Quartet in 1937 (as Barber was a trained baritone singer, along with being a pianist & composer):
> 
> 
> 
> . The late American baritone Sanford Sylvan also used to sing "Dover Beach" in concert, but I don't think Sylvan ever recorded it (unfortunately, since he's a near ideal singer in this repertory); although I could be wrong about this. (Sylvan did, however, record Barber's Hermit Songs:
> 
> 
> 
> .)
> 
> Speaking of Barber's compositions for voice, his 1947 work, "Knoxville: Summer of 1915", Op. 24--which is set to excerpts of a 1938 prose-poem by the American writer James Agee--is likewise essential listening, and a major work by Barber. I think it is his most beautiful song cycle. The work was commissioned by soprano Eleanor Steber, who premiered the piece in 1948 in Boston & made the first recording. Here are links to three different performances that I like, if anyone's curious:
> 
> Eleanor Steber:
> 
> 
> 
> Leontyne Price:
> 
> 
> 
> Dawn Upshaw (digital):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. I also wanted to add the following 1978 interview with Barber, which was given prior to the premiere of his Third Essay for Orchestra (in New York), where Barber discusses the genesis of the orchestral version of his Adagio for Strings, which Arturo Toscanini premiered, as well as his being frustrated by the lack of commercial recordings of his songs, among other subjects, including his friendship with Francis Poulenc:
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> P.S.S. Here's yet another documentary interview with Barber made in his NYC apartment, given by pianist James Tocco, to celebrate the composer's 67th birthday in 1977 (in the film, the American String Quartet performs his Adagio for Strings, which may possibly indicate that Barber preferred the version for string quartet, as I do myself):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (If anyone's wondering where to start with Barber's music, I'd recommend the following two recordings, in addition to the string quartet:
> 
> 1. The benchmark orchestral recordings by conductor Thomas Schippers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Samuel-Barbe...chippers+barber&qid=1625938595&s=music&sr=1-1
> 
> 2. While there will be some duplication here among the orchestral works performed on Schippers' album, I specifically chose the following EMI double fforte discount 2 CD reissue for Barber's Violin Concerto, with its wistful or sadly evocative, nostalgic feeling, or perhaps elegiac 2nd Andante movement--which I find deeply moving, & especially as it was played by violinist Elmar Oliveira, and conductor Leonard Slatkin leading the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra, who performed it as well as, if not better than anyone else that I've heard. Although you can buy the Oliveira/Slatkin recording individually, too, where it comes coupled with Howard Hanson's Symphony No. 2, "Romantic", on a single EMI CD:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Barber-Strin...violin+concerto&qid=1625938685&s=music&sr=1-6).


Thank you so much Josquin13 for such an interesting and useful post. I've spent the last couple of hours following your links etc.

What an amazing Park Apartment Barber had - what I would give to live in a place like that!

Excellent choice, too. I haven't listened to this work for quite a while, so I'm looking forward to this week's listening and comments.

I have the Endellion on a marvellous EMI disc and the Quatuor Diotima (bought for the Crumb sqt).

I think I'll probably be acquiring the Emerson.

:tiphat:


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Really great pick! Barber is my second favorite American composer after Ives. Particularly his three main concerti (piano, violin, cello) are among my favorites of the century. Like you, Josquin, I much prefer the famous Adagio in its intimate original setting here. Looking forward to it!


----------



## SearsPoncho

Josquin13: Excellent choice! Looks like you, I and Samuel Barber had something in common, that is, growing up just outside of Philly. My hometown was about a 45 minute drive from the City of Brotherly Love. I'm not a big flag-waver, but the two places I've visited which elicited strong patriotic feelings were Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia. I grew up watching Jim Gardner on the local news. My goal in life was to be Dr. J. Ormandy, cheese steaks, Broad Street, Constitution Hall, the Liberty Bell, Rittenhouse Square, South Street, the Academy of Music and the Tower Classical Music Annex, with a life-size cardboard cutout of Riccardo Muti, were all part of my youth. 

Emerson Quartet all the way! I think it's good to hear the Adagio in context, and in its original form.  I'll be enjoying this one.


----------



## starthrower

Thanks, Josquin! This is a beautiful selection to wake up to this Sunday morning. I've been listening to Barber for over 25 years and I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never listened to his string quartet. I've been preoccupied with the orchestral works ever since attending a live performance of the piano concerto performed by John Browning in 1995.

Like many classical listeners I'm familiar with the famous adagio movement which imo is one of the most heart wrenchingly beautiful pieces ever written. ACB mentioned Ives, and The Unanswered Question, along with Barber's Adagio are two of my favorite American pieces. I've given a listen to the complete quartet by the Emersons which has wetted my appetite to explore other recordings for which Josquin has so generously provided numerous links.


----------



## sbmonty

Outstanding and informative posts. This thread is a treasure. 
Thoroughly enjoyed the Haydn traversal. To be honest I've only listened to Barber's String Quartet once or twice, so really looking forward to this week as well. Listening to the Emerson account now. 
Thanks to everyone.


----------



## Enthusiast

Nice choice. I don't know it very well so it is perfect for spending a week with. I like what Barber I know (the concertos, the Adagio part of this string quartet - I also greatly prefer it in this form rather than with a string orchestra - and a few other pieces).


----------



## FastkeinBrahms

Oh what a beauty this is! Thank you for this new discovery. I listened first to the Emersons and I agree with Josquin that this is a superb recording. In fact, I do not recall another performance where they sing the music they play with more warmth. However, just now I listened to the Endellion, and I also found their reading deeply satisfying. There is an incredible section of deep mystery about 5 minutes into the first movement, which you just do not want to end. The lyrical chord-centered second subject of the first movement is absolutely beautiful in both recordings. I agree with Josquin that the Adagio might be even better in the string quartet version than in the orchestral version although this brought back memories of the incredibly sad performance of the Berlin Philharmonic in a Philharmonie without an audience last year, which was hard to listen to and even harder to watch, especially Kyrill Petrenko's face.

I think the Endellion plays the music with a tad more intensity and grace but might sometimes be a bit less organic, less of "aus einem Guss" than the Emersons, who also have a bigger sound. I recommend both highly.

And one thought about the final movement: I find it disappoiningly short. It is so full of great ideas and wonderful sonorities that when it ends you think: What, is this really over? A great composer! Why did he not compose more string quartets?


----------



## starthrower

I'm a bit miffed over the brief finale as well. I gave a listen to the Endellion, Chester, and Tokyo quartet recordings. The Endellion's bring a grace and clarity to the individual voices with enough passion to engage the listener without going overboard. The Tokyo Quartet tries a bit too hard to grab your heartstrings but their beautiful playing is hard to fault. And the Chester Quartet recording struck me as a classic and very satisfying account producing a beautiful sound with their self assured and exquisite playing.


----------



## SearsPoncho

I also like his Violin Concerto. To be honest, I prefer Barber and William Schuman's Americana works more than Copland, who's considered THE American composer. Copland had that weird dichotomy of being the Americana composer and also a 20th Century modernist; of the two, I prefer the Copland the modernist. Ives is also my favorite American* composer, however, it's impossible to pigeonhole him with one description or style of music. Anyhow, back to Barber... 

I've been living with the Emerson recording for a while and have never felt the need to look elsewhere. This is why this thread is so valuable: It encourages me to get out of my lazy comfort zone and try new things. Nevertheless, I do think the Barber recording is one of the Emerson Quartet's best discs.

* That is, unless we can claim Stravinsky, Rachmaninov, or a little bit of Bartok.


----------



## Josquin13

Yes, I agree about the short final movement. But Barber was only in his mid-twenties at the time, which for a modern composer is on the young side to be writing a quartet of this quality. Personally, I see the 3rd movement as an extension of the Adagio, a kind finishing off of went before. Even though, yes, thematically, it contains a brief reprisal of music from the first movement. In other words, it's more of a concise conclusion rather than a multi-faceted finale. Barber had finished what he wanted to say, so he just stopped. I wish he had gone on, too, but the first two movements are brilliant.

I also agree that the Adagio is heart wrenching and elegiac. & yes, it does most fittingly get played during sad and tragic times: such as, historically speaking, after the news of President Franklin Roosevelt's death was announced on American radio, as well as at a classical tribute in November, 1963 in D.C. to the recently slain President John F. Kennedy, who had known Barber, personally, along with his wife, Jackie, and particularly admired the Adagio. Oliver Stone also used it in his film, Platoon, which was the first movie that an American director had been able to make dealing with my country's harrowing past and floundering during the Vietnam War. Once heard, it is unforgettable music.

What I don't understand is how Virgil's Georgics served as the inspiration behind this quartet, since I've never read the poems (only Virgil's Aeneid). Does anyone familiar with these poems care to take a stab at that?

--Merl writes, "Btw, theres also the aforementioned Brodskys, Lipkind, Eberle, Ying, Aeolus, Lipkind, Vegh and Serbian quartets to consider here."

Merl, I don't know how you do it. Here I thought I had mentioned most ALL of them. But! I did mention the Ying Quartet, for their excellent recordings of both the SQ and "Dover Beach", & provided links. Like the Emersons, I rated them 5 out of 5 stars for their SQ performance, which is very good. I think you're going to like it.

--Henry writes, "What an amazing Park Apartment Barber had - what I would give to live in a place like that!"

First of all, it was my pleasure, and I'm pleased (& impressed) that you went through the links in my post. I found them interesting too, especially the two interviews with Barber. Yes, I also noticed that Barber's apartment was right on Central Park in NYC. At first, I assumed it was the Upper West Side, where notable people in the arts lived in those days, because it was less expensive than the East Side. However, when I looked more closely at the direction of the traffic patterns outside Barber's living room window--by his piano, with the old styled, dirty white buses passing by in one direction (going south), and the traffic within Central Park going in the opposite direction (north)--which you can see only because it is winter and the trees are bare--I realized that Barber's apartment was definitely on 5th Avenue!, on the Upper East Side. & I'd say somewhere between Central Park South in the high 50s and the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the 80s. Which has traditionally been one of the most, if not the most expensive areas to live in New York City (& in the world), even back in the 1970s. So it's a swanky address, & Barber must have done extremely well, financially, as a composer to be able to afford such a place. (Although I've also been in virtual palaces on 5th Avenue, with double height ceilings, etc., so he didn't do THAT well...)

--SearsPoncho,

I also grew up about 45 minutes from Philly!--in Rosemont, Villanova & later St. Davids, & then back to Villanova (my father liked to move short distances!). (I even know where Gaby Casadesus used to go to church in Rosemont, & what building Eugene Ormandy lived in on Rittenhouse Square.) So, yes, I have a reference point for everything that you mention, including the Academy of Music and Jim Gardner on the local news; although I think I may be a little older than you, since I can also remember Larry Kane & Jessica Savitch on the news (before she moved onto NBC). I miss the Tower Records Classical Annex. What a great store. I can recall when it arrived on South Street (btw, I also used to frequent "The Book Trader"). However, I first started buying classical LPs a couple of years before that, from Sam Goody's on Chestnut Street (in Center City). & of course, I bleed green! I'm still a huge Philadelphia Eagles fan, so I stay in touch with the city in that way. I also miss the Ritz 3 (later the Ritz 5) movie theaters, with their imported Belgian seats (so comfortable) & classical music playing, where I saw so many memorable foreign films back in the 1980s (Babette's Feast, Jean de Florette, Manon of the Spring, etc.). & of course, the Philadelphia Museum of Art. I actually lived in the city, near Rittenhouse Square (& Curtis) for several years in my mid-twenties, before I moved to New York City (& elsewhere). But the Philadelphia area will always be my home.

Thanks everyone else for your kind words, and wonderful enthusiasm for this week's pick! I'm pleased with the response.


----------



## Malx

There's also a recording I found on Qobuz by the Bingham Quartet.

*ETA* - It seems hard to trace as I can find no sign of it available for sale, as a disc, in the usual places, Qobuz suggests it was released in 2005 by Cambridge Recordings, download only perhaps?


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## Bwv 1080

Cool, every time I listen to Barber, I think “hey this is great, why don’t I listen to more Barber?” Then I don’t for some reason

Going with older Vegh and Borodin - want to hear it played by people who never heard of Platoon


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## Merl

Malx said:


> There's also a recording I found on Qobuz by the Bingham Quartet.
> 
> *ETA* - It seems hard to trace as I can find no sign of it available for sale, as a disc, in the usual places, Qobuz suggests it was released in 2005 by Cambridge Recordings, download only perhaps?


Nearly all the Bingham Quartet recordings are OOP and impossible to find. They are all real collectors items and most are highly sought after, Malx.

Edit: Last night and this morning I've made my way through a number of recordings.. The *Chester* quartet are much too broad in this one for me, especially in the first movement. even if they do play well. The *Cypress*, *Diotama* and *Duke* accounts are easily recommendable but I don't feel the famous adagio in the same way that I do with the *Emersons*, for example. As nice as the *Endellion* are on Warner, I'm not convinced by a slightly weedy lead violin tone in an otherwise very good reading There are another couple I've heard too but I'll save those more impressive ones for my round-up, later. I will say that the more successful quartets get to grips with the first movement better and/or don't play the adagio as a 'separate' piece.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post but I've been Barber listening all day. Now I don't mind a broad account of the Barber quartet, the *Brodskys* are at the slower end of the spectrum but play with great beauty and power, however the *Lipkind* quartet are surely taking the p*ss with their account. The adagio alone comes in at a staggering 12 minutes! Bear in mind that the classic *Beaux Arts* do the same movement in a zippy 6:30! So how does the Lipkind sound? Well as expected slow, schmaltzy, hugely mannered in the adagio, boring and insipid (I actually turned it off 3/4 of the way through as it was so excruciating). Along with that one I'm throwing out the *Dickermann* Quartet account (poor first violin and terrible name), the *Borodins* (awful, bass-lite, dry sound) and the *Veghs* (who just seem quite lost in this repertoire) .

* Incidentally that full Lipkind performance takes up a bewildering 24 minutes, by far the longest available. Compare that to the speedy Beaux Arts who take a smidgeon over 15 minutes to complete the same quartet (the average performance is somewhere around the 18 minute mark) . The Lipkind Barber is on Spotify (twinned with an equally dire, trudging Dvorak American quartet) under 'Lipkind New Worlds' for those who wish to inflict this particular level of hell on their ears. My advice is to take my word for it. It's bloody awful.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> * Incidentally that full Lipkind performance takes up a bewildering 24 minutes, by far the longest available. Compare that to the speedy Beaux Arts who take a smidgeon over 15 minutes to complete the same quartet (the average performance is somewhere around the 18 minute mark) . The Lipkind Barber is on Spotify (twinned with an equally dire, trudging Dvorak American quartet) under 'Lipkind New Worlds' for those who wish to inflict this particular level of hell on their ears. My advice is to take my word for it. It's bloody awful.


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## Bwv 1080

Didn’t like the vegh or Borodin sound either, the Tokyo is worth a listen


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Didn't like the vegh or Borodin sound either, the Tokyo is worth a listen


That's one for the round-up, Bwv!


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## Josquin13

Here's yet another digital era recording of the Barber SQ that both Merl & I missed, played by the Ehnes String Quartet (led by first violinist, James Ehnes, who I expect people will know as a soloist):














I'm listening to the performance right now, and it sounds very good.

Evidently, the 3rd movement gave Barber lots of difficulties, and at one point, his scrapped his original movement, which was a "rondo" & rewrote the music, creating the shortened 3rd movement that we know today. I found the following explanation written by Kai Christiansen on earsense.org:

"Barber fiddled with the finale for a number of years. After some amount of frustration, he quickly composed the original third movement for the premier, a rondo in a moderate tempo. Unhappy, he tinkered with movement until he ultimately scrapped it. The revised conclusion became a reprise of the beginning: Barber extracted a portion of the first movement's conclusion for the new finale and modified the first movement accordingly. The revised quartet therefore takes on a unique composite form. Rather than a three movement work, it is often regarded as a two movement work with the massive adagio rising out of the center of the single, interrupted "outer" movement, a ternary form symmetrically balanced with matching endpapers."

As Merl pointed out to me (in a PM), the Ying Quartet is the only modern quartet to record Barber's original finale, which the composer later rejected. Although there were apparently earlier string quartet groups that played the original 3rd movement in the late 1930s and early 1940s before Barber's revision, such as the Curtis Quartet. For example, I did a search on You Tube and found the following 1936 recording of Barber's SQ--in dreadful sound--played by the Curtis Quartet (who may not sound so great here--due to the terrible sound, but were actually a very fine quartet, if anyone is familiar with their old LP records...). Interestingly, the original movement extends the quartet to 21:27 in their performance:






According to Wikipedia, Barber initially wrote the quartet for the Curtis Quartet to premiere, but when it wasn't ready on time for their concert tour, the Pro Arte Quartet stepped in and gave its premiere at the Villa Aurelia in Rome, in 1936. Then later, the Budapest Quartet gave the premiere of the quartet with the revised 3rd movement at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C., in 1943.

If anyone's interested in hearing the original movement in much better sound, here is the original finale & 3rd movement as played by the Ying Quartet, who most interestingly, have recorded it as his 4th movement! and kept the revised 3rd movement (I'll be curious how people respond to this movement, & the order, and if you think Barber should have scrapped it or not? As Maurice Ravel once said, composing is about making choices):






The Ying Quartet's entire recording is on You Tube, if anyone's interested in hearing the original movement in the context of the rest of the string quartet--in modern digital sound (& you can program it as you wish).

By the way, the Ying Quartet has also recorded the string quartet version of Barber's three movement Serenade, Op. 1, on the same album--which, I believe, is another great rarity: 



.

Evidently, Barber wrote all of these string quartet works for the Curtis Quartet, including the Op. 11, "Dover Beach", and Serenade, Op. 1.

To reiterate, since I'm curious, is anyone here familiar enough with Virgil's "Georgics" to take a stab at how they may be reflected in Barber's SQ? since apparently Virgil's poems served as Barber's inspiration behind this quartet. Any classics scholars out there?


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## Merl

As I said to you in my PM, I really like the original finale. I think it's a fine movement. Does it fit in with the quartet? I'm not so sure. I've listened twice up to now and I'd say no but I'm gonna try another few times as the unfamiliar needs to become the familiar to give it a fair chance. Btw, Jos, I didn't miss the Ehnes. Its already in my round-up.


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## starthrower

Josquin, thanks for that fascinating piece of history detailing the composition and revision of the Barber quartet's 3rd movement. The Ying Quartet American Anthem album looks to be a superb release. As Merl mentioned, the rejected third movement contains some strong music within itself. The Ying recording gives us this along with the revised "matching endpapers" movement. BTW, the Ying release is a 2 disc CD /blu-ray edition with surround mix.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I'm not too familiar with Barber because the few works of his that I listened to didn't really appeal to me. So today I put on the first recording of this quartet that turned up on Spotify by the Emersons. I really liked the 1st movement, which turned out to be my favourite part of the quartet. That famous 2nd movement is hard for me, I think its use in popular culture has ruined it for me, and I know that I _should_ like it, but I just can't. The 3rd movement kinda went over my head, nothing grabbed me. Perhaps later in the week I'll give another recording a try.


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## starthrower

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> The 3rd movement kinda went over my head, nothing grabbed me. Perhaps later in the week I'll give another recording a try.


If you listen again to the 3rd movement you'll hear Barber reintroducing musical material from the 1st movement. And do yourself a favor and listen to another recording besides the Emersons. I'm not hearing the warmth and beauty mentioned by other listeners. Maybe it's there in their live performances but the DG recording is thin and shrill. You can hardly hear the cello. When they hit those high notes in the adagio it makes me wince. DG's mixing and mastering leaves a lot to be desired. Compare the Tokyo Quartet's RCA recording which is rich and robust with beautiful sound.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

starthrower said:


> Compare the Tokyo Quartet's RCA recording which is rich and robust with beautiful sound.


I'm no fan of the Emersons, but I wasn't in the mood to search for anything else. I'll try this recording later. Thank you!


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## Allegro Con Brio

This is far from my favorite of Barber’s works, but it is outstanding for such a youthful composition, and the first movement at least has his mature voice all over it. Like Ives (have I mentioned how much I love him?) I find Barber’s appeal to rest in his mastery of disparate idioms and styles, from languid lyricism (violin concerto, Knoxville, symphony) to spiky, jazzy playfulness (piano concerto, Summer Music) to more modern invention (piano sonata), often effortlessly swinging between these styles in the same work. I do find the first movement to be absolutely marvelous; it has a real sense of improvisation but it manages to hang together. There’s lush harmonies, jaunty rhythms, and lots of exploring various sonic combinations. Like others I feel the Adagio is overplayed and it’s far from my favorite slow movement, but it is of course a pinnacle of elegaic beauty and I love how Barber is able to maintain variety and interest from the same melody by changing the harmonies and textures. I only wish he had revisited the finale later in life to work out a satisfactory solution, as I find the most commonly performed version to be deeply fragmented and unsatisfactory. I will have to hear the original version posted by Josquin.

I started with the Emersons, and unfortunately they didn’t do anything to change my general impression of them as cold and unsympathetic. As starthrower points out, part of it is certainly due to the unsavory sound engineering, which makes everything sound thin, wiry and glassy; even through my earbuds I was able to tell the difference (does anyone else listen to the Weekly Quartet while working out? No, I’m the only one? OK, carry on...) The Tokyo is major improvement. Nice full sound, more lush playing, and a very natural, unaffected air. I still like a little more personality, though, and for that the Brodskys were more than satisfying. They really play up the jazzy funkiness of the first movement and capture all of its fleeting moods like fireflies in a jar before the next idea hits the stage. Delightful, magnetic playing. Then their Adagio sounds like they are playing it for the funeral of a close friend; so rapt and heartfelt. They also make the finale sound like something resembling a satisfactory finish. I would say this one needs to be on everyone’s radar this week! And out of perverse curiosity, I did sample the Lipkind, and though I didn’t hate it as much as Merl - there were some interesting ideas - it all just comes off too grim and heavy-handed in a work that should sound vibrant and free. It’s almost like they were told to play it so slowly just to fill out the disc a bit, because they don’t sound very committed and enthusiastic.


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## Malx

I've listened to a number of recordings so far - Chester, Brodsky, Emerson, Endellion, Tokyo & Bingham all via streaming. I find yet again the Emerson Quartet suffer, as others have said, at the hands of the engineers which is a shame as I didn't think them too bad at all. Of the others the I had a preference for the Brodsky and Tokyo recordings but for me the Bingham Quartet get the balance between the modernity evident in the first movement and the gravitas in the adagio just right. The recording has enough weight and warmth but each instrument can be heard as required.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> I've listened to a number of recordings so far - Chester, Brodsky, Emerson, Endellion, Tokyo & Bingham all via streaming. I find yet again the Emerson Quartet suffer, as others have said, at the hands of the engineers which is a shame as I didn't think them too bad at all. Of the others the I had a preference for the Brodsky and Tokyo recordings but for me the Bingham Quartet get the balance between the modernity evident in the first movement and the gravitas in the adagio just right. The recording has enough weight and warmth but each instrument can be heard as required.


Damn you, Malx, that Bingham recording isnt on my streaming service and i really want to hear it!


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## starthrower




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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> (does anyone else listen to the Weekly Quartet while working out? No, I'm the only one? OK, carry on...)


I do!

(Actual footage here. Bartok's 4th, if I recall. The pizzicato movement.)


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## Merl

starthrower said:


>


Thanks ST but I finally found it on Spotify (link below).


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## BlackAdderLXX

The first time I listened to this I wasn't really a fan. I stuck with it and on my third time in as many days. It's starting to grow on me. Let's see what a few more times will do.


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## starthrower

As ACB mentioned, the first movement is an impressive piece of music. I've listened to it a half dozen times and I'm still enjoying the musical ideas and structure of the piece. This is the best aspect of discovering this work which I knew existed but never got around to listening to in the past. 

I felt the same way years ago when I first started listening to Overture To The School For Scandal. When I looked it up and found out Barber wrote it when he was 20 years old I was amazed! I heard there was a saying at the Curtis Institute back in the 1920s when he was a student there. Bach, Beethoven, and Barber! His talent was way beyond the other students there at the time.


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## Merl

Ive listened to the Ying's original 3rd movement at least 3 or 4 times now and ageee with Barber. As lovely as a movement it is it just doesnt fit in this quartet. Its a shame he never used it for a 2nd quartet as I really like it.ill post my round-up tomorrow as ive made my choices.


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## Enthusiast

I had planned to avoid trying lots of different recordings of this one but it was not to be. It didn't grow on me when I was listening to the Emmerson and the Diotima Quartets so I thought I'd try the Brodsky and then the Endellion and then the Tokyo recordings. I found these much more enjoyable. I have now abandoned the first two and will listen again to the remaining three. But the work troubles me a little: with the third movement having so little to offer I find the quartet to be an interesting and potentially meaningful first movement and a lovely slow movement that seems unrelated to it. The recording and/or performance seems to matter a lot but even then I am not sure it is a work that "deserves" the time I am spending on it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Before Steve gets to the album covers (sorry, Steve!) I had to post this one. Honestly, I don't have any comments. Apparently this is the rest of the world's impression of America (where's the "slap forehead" emoji)


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## starthrower

The gun would come in handy for me if I was forced to listen to too much Steve Reich music. The Quatuor Diotima made a Barber sandwich with Different Trains, and Black Angels. Quite a diverse program!


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## Merl

I like the Cypress cover, where they're all strangely going for a walk on the beach with their instruments. Relevance? None.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I like the Cypress cover, where they're all strangely going for a walk on the beach with their instruments. Relevance? None.
> 
> View attachment 157294


But give them points for correct Abbey Road spacing!


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Before Steve gets to the album covers (sorry, Steve!) I had to post this one. Honestly, I don't have any comments. Apparently this is the rest of the world's impression of America (where's the "slap forehead" emoji)


Agree on the forehead slap here. Looks more like a John Zorn/Naked City album.

In contrast, I think Chandos got it pretty much perfect for the Brodskys here. Maybe their best cover ever?


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## Malx

Merl said:


> I like the Cypress cover, where they're all strangely going for a walk on the beach with their instruments. Relevance? None.
> 
> View attachment 157294


White rocks - could be Dover Beach.


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## Bwv 1080

Malx said:


> White rocks - could be Dover Beach.


But there are guns in the instrument cases, which makes is more American


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## Josquin13

I'm a little surprised by the negative responses here to the Emerson Quartet's performance. But I do get people's negative issues with this quartet, which I thought was, nevertheless, worth hearing. (You'll be glad that I didn't choose Joonas Kokkonen's 3rd SQ, which was my next choice...)

I agree with Merl that the original 3rd movement doesn't quite fit with the other two movements. Although Barber did revise or modify the 1st movement to accommodate his new, more concise 3rd movement, with its brief reprisal of the coda from the 1st movement. By the way, Barber composed a single movement to a second string quartet, but he never finished it. Unfortunately, I don't believe the movement has ever been recorded, so we can't put it together with the discarded 3rd movement to squeeze out another very good two movement quartet...

To add to your thoughts, here's an interesting article in The Strad magazine entitled, "5 Reasons to love Barber's String Quartet, Op. 11", written by a violinist from the Royal Scottish Chamber Orchestra, Gordon Bragg, about rehearsing and playing the Barber String Quartet with several of his colleagues from the RCO: https://www.thestrad.com/playing-an...ove-barbers-string-quartet-op11/11341.article. Interestingly, his favorite part of the quartet is the ending!! which Bragg describes as "frenetic arabesques give way to an anguished cry of G sharp minor before a breathless stringendo sino alla fine charges to the end in the key of B minor. The drama of this piece is so powerfully concise."


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> I'm a little surprised by the negative responses here to the Emerson Quartet's performance. But I do get people's negative issues with this quartet, which I thought was, nevertheless, worth hearing.


I don't get the negative comments in regard to the Emersons either, Jos (apart from the crappy DG engineering). It's a fine account. It's not the very best but it beats a shedload of others hands-down. They don't bask in schmaltz in the adagio, but are sympathetically romantic. Equally they don't rush elsewhere. I certainly don't find them cold in any way.


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## Josquin13

Merl writes, "They don't bask in schmaltz in the adagio, but are sympathetically romantic."

That was exactly my response, too. The adagio doesn't need the schmaltzy late Bernstein DG treatment (which arguably may work better in the orchestral version: 



). Barber has already put a ton of emotion into his score, & therefore, I don't think a quartet needs to try to add on to those emotions or accentuate or especially wallow in them. Though, on the other hand, the full on modern treatment doesn't quite work, either, to my ears (as with the Diotima Quartet), because there IS a degree of Romantic ethos in both the first & second movements, as well (as I've previously mentioned). Plus, I thought the Emersons nailed the 1st movement.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your final thoughts on the different recordings, Merl.


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


> But give them points for correct Abbey Road spacing!


Yes, but they're all wearing shoes.

Thanks to Starthrower for the Bingham Quartet link. Very good performance. As for the famous Adagio, tempo is, of course, important, but so is phrasing, dynamics, vibrato, etc., and the Bingham is a good example of musicality creating the same effect as slower versions without having to slow the tempo down too much. As for the Bernstein/L.A. Philharmonic recording, this was my introduction to the Adagio, and one I listened to for years. I thought that was the tempo everyone played. Imagine my surprise when I heard other recordings and wondered why others were rushing through it! I even recall making a mixtape for my sister in the late 80's-early 90's (Jos13: She was attending Jefferson Medical School in Philadelphia) with Barber's Adagio and Mahler's 5th Symphony Adagietto. They seem to be cut from the same cloth, although there are significant differences musically, and the Mahler was intended as a love letter to his wife. Regardless of those facts, the two have always been tethered in my psyche. I'm not sure if pop culture references are a blessing or a curse for classical pieces, but if it's a blessing, Barber definitely got the better end of it. A Death in Venice* is not nearly as well known as the Oscar-winning Platoon. Of course, because of the success of Platoon and that death scene, it spawned many parodies, including one by a Mr. Frank Constanza...




*Anyone else hear the story of the Hollywood producer who saw A Death in Venice and asked who the composer was because he wanted him to score his next film?


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Of course, because of the success of Platoon and that death scene, it spawned many parodies, including one by a Mr. Frank Constanza...


A classic!

"In my mind, there's a war still going on..."


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## Allegro Con Brio

Having heard the original finale, I do like it better but agree it doesn’t fit with the other movements. Great counterpoint, but it seems too contented to successfully summarize the mood swings of the first movement and the depth of the Adagio; at least the second version matches the mercurial drama of what we’ve previously heard. Also interesting that Barber rarely if at all revisited chamber music after this early effort.


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## Merl

Right I've done my listening for the week. Shame I didn't get to hear the Alexanders, Lindsays and Concord recordings but if I do I will edit my blog if needed at a later date and this goes for the highly anticipated Escher quartet account, which will be issued in the next month too. So if you're interested in my picks the blog link is below.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3483-barber-string-quartet-op.html

It's been good to revisit Barber after a long break. A few things to mention. Firsly, as you know, I'm not a fan of many pre-1950s recordings but will always give them a listen. However, I did find the Stradivari's 1948 account compelling and the sound was surprising very good for a post-war mono recording. They play with a wonderful relaxed feel in the adagio (you can find that one on YouTube if you look hard enough). Another I should mention is the Brodskys. As I said in my previous post I'm not usually a fan of those who milk every ounce of emotion out of the famous adagio but there's something about their recording that I found compelling. It helps that the Chandos sound for that whole disc is glorious. Incidentally there's a Dvorak American on the same disc that is similar in style (a little more mannered maybe) that you should hear. I kind of baulked at the whole disc on first hearing as it's definitely goes for the heart strings but on subsequent listens you find it just grows on you (more about the Dvorak at a later date). I think the performances that most let me down were the Borodins and Vegh. I thought they'd excel in this quartet but they both seriously disappointed and I have to wonder if the Veghs had any clue what they were doing at all. Btw, I share some of your reservations about the Diotima account, Jos, but at the end of the day they at least tried something different so crept into my recommended for being the most modernist account of the work.

Ive gotta say this one was particularly difficult as its basically 2 and a bit movements in less than 20mins so it's hard to totally mess it up or to blow anyone away and the adagio is so famous it was difficult listening to multiple versions of this warhorse. The reason I went with the Bingham and Ying accounts is I felt that they had that perfect balance between modern and romantic that I feel this quartet is asking for. I would also have said the Emersons but the DG engineering and particularly the rubbish soundstage on their recording really affects the way the music sounds, considerably, even if their performance is top notch. Perhaps that is what some of you feel is 'cold' about that performance. For those wanting a more romantic, lusher vision then the Barshais (slightly) or particularly the Brodskys would be a preference. For those wanting a slightly cooler or darker approach the Beaux Arts or Cypress quartets would be an obvious choice.


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## Chilham

Enlightening to read all of your insights. I enjoyed the Endellion recording very much.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Josquin13 said:


> I'm a little surprised by the negative responses here to the Emerson Quartet's performance. But I do get people's negative issues with this quartet, which I thought was, nevertheless, worth hearing. (You'll be glad that I didn't choose Joonas Kokkonen's 3rd SQ, which was my next choice...)
> 
> I agree with Merl that the original 3rd movement doesn't quite fit with the other two movements. Although Barber did revise or modify the 1st movement to accommodate his new, more concise 3rd movement, with its brief reprisal of the coda from the 1st movement. By the way, Barber composed a single movement to a second string quartet, but he never finished it. Unfortunately, I don't believe the movement has ever been recorded, so we can't put it together with the discarded 3rd movement to squeeze out another very good two movement quartet...
> 
> To add to your thoughts, here's an interesting article in The Strad magazine entitled, "5 Reasons to love Barber's String Quartet, Op. 11", written by a violinist from the Royal Scottish Chamber Orchestra, Gordon Bragg, about rehearsing and playing the Barber String Quartet with several of his colleagues from the RCO: https://www.thestrad.com/playing-an...ove-barbers-string-quartet-op11/11341.article. Interestingly, his favorite part of the quartet is the ending!! which Bragg describes as "frenetic arabesques give way to an anguished cry of G sharp minor before a breathless stringendo sino alla fine charges to the end in the key of B minor. The drama of this piece is so powerfully concise."


Just to clarify my earlier post: I wrote that I found the final movement disappoiningly -short-, which I meant as a compliment to the composer. And I still find the Emerson recording very satisfying.


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## Enthusiast

For me I don't think it is only the recording that puts me off the Emerson recording. It is their lack of the personal in the first movement. I don't find the music strong enough for such an approach: it needs advocacy for me. I don't object to their Adagio but neither do I find it especially strong. I wonder if it says something that those defending it draw attention to the mistakes it avoids. But there is a whole world between schmaltzy indulgence and academic efficiency.


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## Josquin13

Enthusiast writes, "I wonder if it says something that those defending it draw attention to the mistakes it avoids. But there is a whole world between schmaltzy indulgence and academic efficiency."

I understand that you want quartet playing here that is more "personal" and involving in the first movement, that the music needs a stronger advocacy than what the Emersons provide. You may be right. However, I wasn't defending the Emersons on the basis of "the mistakes" they avoided. Nor was I claiming that they'd found the right balance between "schmaltzy indulgence" and "academic efficiency". 

Rather, what I was claiming is they'd found the right balance between the modern elements in Barber's quartet and the romantic elements, which strangely coexist in this music. To my mind, that is not an easy balance to find (for musicians), because modernism and romanticism don't always necessarily integrate so easily. But in my view, that is what Barber has created, & it works. 

IMO, Quatour Diotima, for example, goes too far in the direction of modernism, at least in the Adagio, where I didn't think their reading--though consistent in all three movements--was quite as effective as those groups that found a greater Romantic ethos in the Adagio. In other words, the Diotimas had tried to play this work predominantly as a modern quartet. & when I listened to their reading juxtaposed to the Emersons, it gave me a new appreciation for the balance that the Emersons were able to achieve and how well they were able to integrate the modern and romantic elements in this music. I don't see that balance as an easy feat to pull off, or exactly an avoidance of a "mistake". But then, nor do I see the Diotima's performance exactly as a mistake either, because, as I wrote previously, their more "modern" outer movements were fascinating to me. Indeed the Diotima's interpretation helped me to see the more modern aspects in Barber's quartet more clearly, and to better realize that they are a part of Barber's score. Just as Bernstein's "schmalzy indulgence" in Los Angeles (with his very slow, drawn out Adagio) helped me to better understand that there is also a strong Romantic ethos in this music as well. As SearsPoncho wrote, he had long equated Bernstein's DG performance with Mahler's Adagio from his 5th Symphony, which presents a similar challenge for conductors, in regards to how slowly and indulgently it should be played....? (Although, despite that Mahler's Adagio was used effectively in the film, Death in Venice, it was composed by Mahler as a passionate love letter to his future wife, Alma, as SearsPoncho pointed out. Which, for me, sets it apart from Barber's more elegiac Adagio.)

Which isn't to say that other groups, like the Tokyo Quartet, etc., don't do this quartet better than the Emersons. They may. But I can only react to & form my opinions based on those groups that I've heard in this music.

But you hear the music differently, which is fine. Our thread would be boring and useless if we all heard everything in the same way!

Since no one has talked about the relationship between Barber's quartet and Virgil's Georgics, I looked into the connection a bit. Evidently, Barber never said anything about Virgil's poems having served as his inspiration behind the quartet. Rather, the information came from his partner, Gian Carlo Menotti, who said that when the two were living in Austria in 1936, Barber encountered the following passage in Virgil's Georgics, which became the inspiration for his quartet:

A breast-shaped curve of wave begins to whiten
And rise above the surface, then rolling on
Gathers and gathers until it reaches land
Huge as a mountain and crashes among the rocks
With a prodigious roar, and what was deep
Comes churning up from the bottom in mighty swirls.

My reading of Virgil's passage is that it's about a tsunami wave that is miles high crashing upon a shoreline. A wave that is so high that it spreads the ocean depths across the land, and though it is only implied, brings great destruction and death in its wake. (I think of a certain story passed down in Peruvian folklore that tells of a time when the ocean came ashore via a wave that was so high that the only people who survived its massive destruction were those high up in the Andes mountains. The passage also reminds me of how modern geology has now detected that a gigantic wave once spread across most of Scotland, leaving ocean sediment & sand within a specific layer of its strata, everywhere.)

Considering that Menotti and Barber were living in Austria at the time, and that Hitler and the Nazis had come to power just three years earlier, I find Barber's interest in this particular passage from Virgil both fascinating and deeply prescient. After all, Europe, the U.S., & Japan were about to face one of the most destructive, nightmarish, and horrifying chapters in human history.

So, the poignancy of Barber's Adagio is without question about death and destruction, and clearly, it is elegiac in tone--in the middle movement. If you've ever seen what a gigantic wave can do, the shoreline afterwards is littered with corpses. It is so horrible, and tragic. Death is everywhere. & those that were left alive, are filled with grief and mourning and a kind of solemn helplessness.

No wonder this music gets played at solemn occasions and funerals.

So I think I now understand the connection between Barber's quartet & Virgil's Georgics.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Nice connection to Virgil, I've read the Aeneid (and translated parts of it from the original Latin - _arma virumque cano, Troiae primus ab oris…_) but not the Georgics, and that definitely lends a greater pathos to the Adagio. I do think it is in a similar vein to the Adagio of Mahler's 9th, the final trio of Strauss's _Der Rosenkavalier_ and the third song of his Four Last Songs - overwhelming, elegaic music that I have always seen as a sort of bittersweet love letter to a dying world in the face of impending tragedy of numbing proportions; almost a sort of Catharsis in preparation for what these artists predicted would come. And the three examples I cited above are all in the key of D-flat major. Coincidence?


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## starthrower

Merl:



> As I said in my previous post I'm not usually a fan of those who milk every ounce of emotion out of the famous adagio but there's something about their recording that I found compelling. It helps that the Chandos sound for that whole disc is glorious.


The Adagio (Brodsky) is pretty long at 8:45 but what beautiful playing! And not too closely miked. The sound engineering capturing their vigorous and spirited opening movement is superb! For me the Brodsky account is tied for first place along with the Ying Quartet. I re-listened to the Bingham Quartet whose playing I enjoy but the way the quartet is miked is hard to take in the Adagio. Just a really hard, unpleasant sound. It's too close.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Merl:
> 
> The Adagio (Brodsky) is pretty long at 8:45 but what beautiful playing! And not too closely miked. The sound engineering capturing their vigorous and spirited opening movement is superb! For me the Brodsky account is tied for first place along with the Ying Quartet. I re-listened to the Bingham Quartet whose playing I enjoy but the way the quartet is miked is hard to take in the Adagio. Just a really hard, unpleasant sound. It's too close.


Yeah, the recording could be better on the Bingham. I just like it as it's a fine account that sits in that middle ground that Jos was talking about. I wish every disc was recorded as beautiful as the Brodskys. Its a stunning recording. Chandos really do know how to get a great sound.


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## SearsPoncho

As Borat might say, "Wowee, wow, wow!" I've been so impressed by every contributor's comments on this quartet, among others, that I'm almost ashamed to provide any of my own. But, as I once said to another member (perhaps Cloydster?), everyone is welcome here, and you must drop any inferiority complex. I believe I also told him that, "Ooh, that sounds nice" is a perfectly valid response.

Anyhow, I found Josquin13's post #3543 to be very enlightening and informative. Merl gets another gold star for his tireless work and final recommendations. I think everyone was on their "A" game this week, and I'm looking forward to Burbage's Friday post!

It appears that this one was a little more complicated to analyze and wrap one's head around than initially expected. One thing I found interesting was that the more I heard it, the more I recognized modern elements which I had previously ignored. Call me crazy ("You're crazy!"), but I actually heard bits and pieces of episodic music here and there which almost reminded me of Janacek and, dare I say, Shostakovich in the outer movements. I had previously thought of this music as American, romantic, tonal music, but it is also clearly 20th Century music. We all know the iconic Adagio, but the meat is in the first movement. As Jos13 and others have stated, it's tricky to find the right balance between full-blown romanticism and modernism, but I truly believe this amalgam was a great fascination for 20th Century composers, and even some of the most "difficult" modernists, such as Berg, chased this aesthetic with their own, unique musical language.

As for the Emersons, I'll never understand how DG has produced and engineered some of the most beautiful-sounding piano recordings (Zimerman, Gilels, Pollini, among others), but has repeatedly had difficulty achieving similar audio quality with strings and orchestral music. I still like the Emersons on this one, but, yeah, the thin, wiry audio does them no favors. By the way, their cd also has some good Ives. Kudos to all who recommended the Bingham Quartet's recording, and to Starthrower, who provided the link to the music; it's an excellent rendition!

Here is a brief interview with Menotti about his friendship with Barber. His affection and respect for the American composer are evident:


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## Carmina Banana

I admire Barber and other composers from his milieu: Copland, William Schumann, Menotti, etc. They wrote honestly and concisely. It was never sentimental or old-fashioned, but always kept tethered to traditions. I think the main purpose of their music was to communicate with U.S. audiences who were probably not as sophisticated as Europeans, but reasonably intelligent and open to the arts as long as pretensions were kept to a minimum. 
The opening of this quartet reminds me of the opening of the cello sonata. It is dramatic and rough and raw and unsure of itself—perfectly American, in other words. I’m not sure the whole piece hangs to together, but that doesn’t bother me. I picture Barber struggling to finish this brilliant 2/3 of a piece and finally giving up and going back to the first movement and slapping on some of that material. This stuff worked once. It'll work again. Maybe at this point in musical history it wasn’t about elegance and balance but getting some honest, heartfelt music on the books. It seems to me he had a similar problem finishing off the violin concerto.

I heard the Emersons and it was very…professional.
I liked the Diotima very much. The slow movement was reserved but poignant.
I had to hear the Lipkind after Merl’s description of it. I am trying to picture their rehearsal: Dude, what if we played it like real, real slow? Might be something to try once, but for a recording?
I just heard the Chester quartet and, though it sounds like it was recorded in a gymnasium, I really enjoyed it. I wonder if it might be a live recording. It has the spontaneity and the flaws of a live recording or at least one that valued excitement over perfection. The piece made sense to me in a different way after hearing this recording.


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## Burbage

It's Friday. Usually, by now, I'd have done a bit of wikipedia-mining in search of a motive but everyone's done that already so it looks like I needn't bother.

But still…

After graduating from the Curtis Institute in 1934, Barber won first a Pullitzer Scholarship and then a Prix de Rome. That would have been enough, I would have thought, to plant grudgeful thoughts in his fellow-students' hearts, for nobody likes a precocious tuft-hunter who snaffles all the prizes, especially not one who shuns iconoclasm but meekly clings to fond-remembered classics. But Gian Carlo Menotti didn't seem to mind, and they went together to Europe where Barber would continue his studies in Austria and Italy and the prizeless Menotti started work on an operatic farce.

It was, perhaps, surprising that the two, one a Pisces, the other Cancerian, would later move to a house they called "Capricorn", but if anyone was playing the goat, it wasn't Barber, who had learnt to take himself seriously (so much so that, thirty years on, a bad review would destroy his relationship, damage his liver and nearly end his career). I'm not entirely sure where they spent the summer of 1936, but it was probably Lake Wolfgang, an idyllic resort in landlocked Austria, far from the political tensions of Vienna (where Zemlinsky was working on his fourth). Perhaps the lake, being made of water, exerted an irresistible force on those born under aqueous stars. Or maybe everyone ended up there in the summer, 'everyone' being those who mattered, those who could afford to escape the heat and dust of the city, such as the prize-winning Barber and Menotti, who had a prosperous background and hobnobbed with baronesses, in the great Classical tradition.

It'll have been Menotti's idea, I'm sure. Lake Wolfgang was, and is, the home of an inn called the _Weißen Rößl_*, the setting and presumable inspiration for Ralph Bernatsky's dimly famous operetta of that name that, in several ways, seems to have influenced Menotti's _Amelia_. Barber's inspiration was also saltier than the placid lake but, rather than seeking enlightenment in trouser-dropping rib-ticklers, he found it in the neat, dense thickets of maritime verse.

His previous notable success had come via _Dover Beach_ a bunch of potent and miserable words assembled by Matthew Arnold which bears strong resemblance to the chunk of Virgil (see posts above) in which Barber found the inspiration for the second movement of his quartet. Both are artful, and arguably touching, contemplations of seaside waves and their metaphorical similarity to the noisy, repetitive futility of human existence. I guess waves are waves wherever they are and so it's unsurprising that, for his next bit of knock-out work, Barber re-trod ground that had worked well last time. Personally, I think the shift to the shores of the ancient Aegean from the quotidian Dover Beach** a wise one, but I doubt Barber had visited either and, in any case, Arnold manages to weave one into the other as naturally as a visitor to MacDonald's finds themselves thinking of Belshazzar. Barber's music can be as oddly timeless, too.

That holds expecially for the second movement, which we apparently know well, if mainly in its filleted and orchestrated form***. Though the first I heard of Barber was his _Mutations from Bach_, written at the other end of his career. In that, Barber effortlessly harmonises and re-harmonises a chorale and I hear that in all three movements here (and even in the much spikier Piano Sonata), as clearly as in any of Brahms. Barber trained as a singer, after all, and though his songs are arguably neglected (as he mournfully recalls in his interviews), a string quartet can, I guess, be written for as a choir, albeit a more versatile, capable and disciplined choir.

He was, justly, proud of the central movement, but I find the dramatic, inventive, lyrical and unsettled first movement is at least as rewarding to listen to, and, even under the Emersons, sounds half as long as it is, which is always a good sign and, though the finale is much picked over, accused of being too old-fashioned or short or something-or-other, and a second (or third) thought on the matter, it does what is needed and, in my life, second thoughts have usually worked out better than the first. Though I wonder if it was his doubts about the ending, or the success of the Adagio, that scuppered his plans for a second quartet.

* Wikipedia tells us, for reasons best known to itself that, following the 1996 Reforms agreed (up to a point) by the members of the Intergovernmental Commission for German Orthography, _Weißen Rössl_ is now the preferred spelling. However, as that was 60 years after the time in question, I've stuck with the contemporaneously authentic version, for all the difference it makes.

** Dover Beach is today a narrow and neglected bank of sand and pebbles, next to a busy port, that looks out to waters regularly admixed with the untreated surplus of the local water company, the gentle, aromatic waves of which compete with the screams of truck-horns and seagulls. It isn't much of a resort except, perhaps, as a last one for those fleeing war and persecution.

*** Unlike Shostakovich, who left it to Barshai to artfully bloat his string quartets into the flabby "Chamber Symphonies", Barber committed this act of inflation himself.


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## Merl

^ Great Post, as usual, Burbage. I've stood on Dover Beach and it's not very special at all.


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## Enthusiast

Josquin13 said:


> Enthusiast writes, "I wonder if it says something that those defending it draw attention to the mistakes it avoids. But there is a whole world between schmaltzy indulgence and academic efficiency."
> 
> I understand that you want quartet playing here that is more "personal" and involving in the first movement, that the music needs a stronger advocacy than what the Emersons provide. You may be right. However, I wasn't defending the Emersons on the basis of "the mistakes" they avoided. Nor was I claiming that they'd found the right balance between "schmaltzy indulgence" and "academic efficiency".
> 
> Rather, what I was claiming is they'd found the right balance between the modern elements in Barber's quartet and the romantic elements, which strangely coexist in this music. To my mind, that is not an easy balance to find (for musicians), because modernism and romanticism don't always necessarily integrate so easily. But in my view, that is what Barber has created, & it works.
> 
> IMO, Quatour Diotima, for example, goes too far in the direction of modernism, at least in the Adagio, where I didn't think their reading--though consistent in all three movements--was quite as effective as those groups that found a greater Romantic ethos in the Adagio. In other words, the Diotimas had tried to play this work predominantly as a modern quartet. & when I listened to their reading juxtaposed to the Emersons, it gave me a new appreciation for the balance that the Emersons were able to achieve and how well they were able to integrate the modern and romantic elements in this music. I don't see that balance as an easy feat to pull off, or exactly an avoidance of a "mistake". But then, nor do I see the Diotima's performance exactly as a mistake either, because, as I wrote previously, their more "modern" outer movements were fascinating to me. Indeed the Diotima's interpretation helped me to see the more modern aspects in Barber's quartet more clearly, and to better realize that they are a part of Barber's score. Just as Bernstein's "schmalzy indulgence" in Los Angeles (with his very slow, drawn out Adagio) helped me to better understand that there is also a strong Romantic ethos in this music as well. As SearsPoncho wrote, he had long equated Bernstein's DG performance with Mahler's Adagio from his 5th Symphony, which presents a similar challenge for conductors, in regards to how slowly and indulgently it should be played....? (Although, despite that Mahler's Adagio was used effectively in the film, Death in Venice, it was composed by Mahler as a passionate love letter to his future wife, Alma, as SearsPoncho pointed out. Which, for me, sets it apart from Barber's more elegiac Adagio.)
> 
> Which isn't to say that other groups, like the Tokyo Quartet, etc., don't do this quartet better than the Emersons. They may. But I can only react to & form my opinions based on those groups that I've heard in this music.
> 
> But you hear the music differently, which is fine. Our thread would be boring and useless if we all heard everything in the same way!


Nice post. I was "replying" to a number of different posts defending the Emerson recording (and not differentiating between them): I was giving a general impression of my experience. The idea of a balance between the modern and the Romantic is interesting. I guess I do find the first movement rather dry when the apparent modernity of the music is played up but I am not sure the problem is being modern so much as seeming a little unengaged. I had less of a problem with the slightly more extreme Diotima - perhaps because they seem a little less neutral - but I haven't greatly enjoyed their account either.

The Adagio is beautiful and, as you say, elegiac. It is a fine piece of music and is a huge contrast to the first movement and this contrast does seem to me to pull the work apart. I think my favourite recording of that movement is the one by the Keller Quartet (who recorded it as a stand alone piece) but I need to listen to the Brodsky and the Endellion recordings again. Barber tries to "contain" the Adagio with that slight last movement that quotes from the first. I'm not sure that works but from what I gather it works better than the apparently superior alternative last movement (which I have not heard). I must confess that no coherent picture of the work has formed in my mind during this week - it almost seems like two brief pieces, one quite good and the other a popular masterpiece.

Of course, this is just me.


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## annaw

Getting done some proper listening of this quartet has taken more time than I was expecting to but finally got an opportunity today.

Barber was a neo-Romantic if there ever was one; famous for his slow movements, tonalism, and beautiful flowing melodies. I personally think that he was a bit of an anomaly of his era, which was governed by atonalists and the 20th century avant-gardists. After having listened to quite a few of Barber's works, I have gotten an impression that performing Barber's music can sometimes be rather tricky as it has potential to be tedious and boring to the listener (as Merl effectively proved) or be heartfelt, emotional, and extremely beautiful. His style certainly doesn't remind me of the full-blown late-Romantics, such as Mahler or Wagner, but rather of the more subtle and delicate Romanticism of Schubert and Schumann. However, no artist can ever become completely detached from his time and era, meaning that, as far as I can tell, Barber's music has some strong modernist influences which might sometimes get too easily neglected due to his music's strong focus on the 19th century lyricism.

I don't know if that's because it was the first recording I listened to this week or because I love that disc in overall, but I think my favourite recording from the very beginning of the week has been Emerson's. I just absolutely adore their quick pace in all movements as it enhances the modernist sound atmosphere, which I think even Barber requires. Their playing also has both bite and precision. While I believe everyone has their own personal aesthetic experience with different works and ensembles, I myself haven't experience the coldness of the Emersons that some describe. In fact, I thought the middle part of their Adagio was particularly heartfelt - the quick pace combined with a constant increase in intensity created a sense of desparation, which I haven't heard (or at least acknowledged) in any other recordings I've listened to. 

I've also listened to the Brodsky's, Endellion's, and Bingham's recording, which I enjoyed very much as well. As far as I can remember, Endellion's recording was the one which first introduced me to the work some time ago and I enjoy it very much. Both the Brodsky and Bingham recordings are stunning as well. I don't have almost anything bad to say about any of these recordings but none of them sound quite as exciting to me as the Emerson's. Whether the quartet should or shouldn't sound exciting in the first place is of course a question of personal preference . I certainly want to listen to the Ying recording as well later today.


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## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Nice connection to Virgil, I've read the Aeneid (and translated parts of it from the original Latin - _arma virumque cano, Troiae primus ab oris…_) but not the Georgics, and that definitely lends a greater pathos to the Adagio. I do think it is in a similar vein to the Adagio of Mahler's 9th, the final trio of Strauss's _Der Rosenkavalier_ and the third song of his Four Last Songs - overwhelming, elegaic music that I have always seen as a sort of bittersweet love letter to a dying world in the face of impending tragedy of numbing proportions; almost a sort of Catharsis in preparation for what these artists predicted would come. And the three examples I cited above are all in the key of D-flat major. Coincidence?


That is a beautifully written & thoughtful paragraph, ACB. (Are you sure you're a freshman in college? You don't sound like it. At least, I never knew a freshman like you at university--it was all drinking beer, girls, and cramming for exams at the last minute--which is a sincere compliment.) "Pathos": Yes, that's the word I was looking for, the introduction of Virgil's passage into the conversation does lend Barber's Adagio "a greater pathos", as you say.

I was intrigued that you linked the Mahler & Strauss works, and especially the Adagio from Mahler's 9th (which is one of my favorite symphonies). You had me listening to the Final Trio from Strauss's 1911 Der Rosenkavalier last night, since I hadn't heard it in a long while. Of course, Strauss quotes from this earlier Trio in his third Last Song, composed in 1948 (at the age of 84); which, for me, is the most deeply moving among his Four Last Songs, along with the final song (if it is not rushed..). Interestingly, Strauss also quotes from his earlier 1889 Death and Transfiguration in the first song, "Im Abendrot", or "Spring". I agree that these musical quotes provide a sense that Strauss was looking back at a lost world or remembering a time that had now passed, or a "dying world" as you say (which was definitely the case in 1948). But there is also something transfiguring and transcendental about this music, too--of the soul saying farewell to life and love, but not dying, rather moving on towards heaven, or at least longing to do so, in the composer's still potent imagination.

But I've never thought of Mahler's Adagio as a 'looking back'. Yes, I suppose it could be. However, for me, in the Adagio, Mahler takes us on a musical journey to a very special place in his heart and mind, an extraordinary world, and then, at the very end, it is as if his vision passes away, and Mahler returns to himself, or an awareness of himself, sitting alone in a solitary room. (& we know that he was dying and in poor physical health at the time... ) So, it's interesting that you see this musical vision or dream, if you will, as a looking back towards halcyon days, or to a better world (like Strauss).

For me, it can also perhaps be seen as a vision looking towards a better world in the future, or the beyond. In other words, I have my own interpretation, which no doubt some people will find strange or unusual (or so I've been told): Since I've long seen Mahler's 9th as his most Hebraic symphony (along with his 2nd). In other words, I see the musical journey that he takes us on in the Adagio as Mahler's vision of a New Jerusalem, or a Celestial Jerusalem, of what has not yet been, but could be. For me, it is a Hebraic vision of a fulfillment of the promise of a greater humanity in this world. Therefore, I don't see it as a looking back per se, but rather as a looking forward. It is instead a mature man's vision of what Mahler had first tried to do with his 2nd "Resurrection" Symphony, and as with the 2nd, I believe that Mahler once again had the model of Beethoven's 9th on his mind. (Indeed we know that he was frightened of writing his 9th because Mahler feared that he would die soon afterwards, which is why he chose not to number his "Song of the Earth" as his 9th Symphony, which it actually was.) Hence, for me, the Adagio in the 9th is a final summation of all his powers, everything that Mahler knew and had learned and experienced in his life, all distilled into one movement. But that's just me. No doubt others see this music differently.

Yes, I don't think the D-flat major is a coincidence, either. Which does indeed show a similar impetus among the three composers (Mahler, Strauss, & Barber).

Which reminds of the first time that I heard Barber's Adagio. I was working as a security desk guard in a bank building (as a part-time job to help pay for college), where, in the evenings, I was able to listen to the classical radio when no one else was around. One night, I found myself totally captivated by a piece of music that I'd never heard before, and when it was over, the radio announcer came on and said that it was Barber's Adagio for Strings. However, it hadn't been a typical or normal interpretation (as I would later discover after hearing Schippers conduct it). Rather, my first impression of the work was not that it had to do with death, but rather that it was overwhelmingly music about a transfiguration of the soul. In other words, the Adagio seemed to build towards a state of intense spiritual fulfillment or ecstasy, if you will. So, I didn't hear it as elegiac at all, but rather as a deeply transcendental work.

The unusual, or unidiomatic interpretation that I heard that evening on the radio was an English performance by Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields--from an old Argo LP; which I'll link to here, just to show that there is yet another way of seeing Barber's Adagio (despite that Marriner's interpretation doesn't accord to Virgil's poem in the Georgics):






Which has me wondering if Sir Neville's more urgent performance, which very likely served as many Brits' introduction to Barber's Adagio, later influenced how British string quartets played this work...?


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## Merl

I used too right well good like ACB when I was a children. Now, I can't be ars*d. :lol:


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> I used too right well good like ACB when I was a children. Now, I can't be ars*d. :lol:


Are you at the pub again, Merl? I don't think I appreciated English literature very much during my school days. I don't remember hearing about Virgil but we had to read that bloody Beowulf tale that went on for days. Incidentally, I went to a library sale a couple of years ago and ended up buying both hardcover volumes of The Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces for two dollars each. Now I have The Aeneid, and Beowulf!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> That is a beautifully written & thoughtful paragraph, ACB. (Are you sure you're a freshman in college? You don't sound like it. At least, I never knew a freshman like you at university--it was all drinking beer, girls, and cramming for exams at the last minute--which is a sincere compliment.) "Pathos": Yes, that's the word I was looking for, the introduction of Virgil's passage into the conversation does lend Barber's Adagio "a greater pathos", as you say.
> 
> I was intrigued that you linked the Mahler & Strauss works, and especially the Adagio from Mahler's 9th (which is one of my favorite symphonies). You had me listening to the Final Trio from Strauss's 1911 Der Rosenkavalier last night, since I hadn't heard it in a long while. Of course, Strauss quotes from this earlier Trio in his third Last Song, composed in 1948 (at the age of 84); which, for me, is the most deeply moving among his Four Last Songs, along with the final song (if it is not rushed..). Interestingly, Strauss also quotes from his earlier 1889 Death and Transfiguration in the first song, "Im Abendrot", or "Spring". I agree that these musical quotes provide a sense that Strauss was looking back at a lost world or remembering a time that had now passed, or a "dying world" as you say (which was definitely the case in 1948). But there is also something transfiguring and transcendental about this music, too--of the soul saying farewell to life and love, but not dying, rather moving on towards heaven, or at least longing to do so, in the composer's still potent imagination.
> 
> But I've never thought of Mahler's Adagio as a 'looking back'. Yes, I suppose it could be. However, for me, in the Adagio, Mahler takes us on a musical journey to a very special place in his heart and mind, an extraordinary world, and then, at the very end, it is as if his vision passes away, and Mahler returns to himself, or an awareness of himself, sitting alone in a solitary room. (& we know that he was dying and in poor physical health at the time... ) So, it's interesting that you see this musical vision or dream, if you will, as a looking back towards halcyon days, or to a better world (like Strauss).
> 
> For me, it can also perhaps be seen as a vision looking towards a better world in the future, or the beyond. In other words, I have my own interpretation, which no doubt some people will find strange or unusual (or so I've been told): Since I've long seen Mahler's 9th as his most Hebraic symphony (along with his 2nd). In other words, I see the musical journey that he takes us on in the Adagio as Mahler's vision of a New Jerusalem, or a Celestial Jerusalem, of what has not yet been, but could be. For me, it is a Hebraic vision of a fulfillment of the promise of a greater humanity in this world. Therefore, I don't see it as a looking back per se, but rather as a looking forward. It is instead a mature man's vision of what Mahler had first tried to do with his 2nd "Resurrection" Symphony, and as with the 2nd, I believe that Mahler once again had the model of Beethoven's 9th on his mind. (Indeed we know that he was frightened of writing his 9th because Mahler feared that he would die soon afterwards, which is why he chose not to number his "Song of the Earth" as his 9th Symphony, which it actually was.) Hence, for me, the Adagio in the 9th is a final summation of all his powers, everything that Mahler knew and had learned and experienced in his life, all distilled into one movement. But that's just me. No doubt others see this music differently.
> 
> Yes, I don't think the D-flat major is a coincidence, either. Which does indeed show a similar impetus among the three composers (Mahler, Strauss, & Barber).
> 
> Which reminds of the first time that I heard Barber's Adagio. I was working as a security desk guard in a bank building (as a part-time job to help pay for college), where, in the evenings, I was able to listen to the classical radio when no one else was around. One night, I found myself totally captivated by a piece of music that I'd never heard before, and when it was over, the radio announcer came on and said that it was Barber's Adagio for Strings. However, it hadn't been a typical or normal interpretation (as I would later discover after hearing Schippers conduct it). Rather, my first impression of the work was not that it had to do with death, but rather that it was overwhelmingly music about a transfiguration of the soul. In other words, the Adagio seemed to build towards a state of intense spiritual fulfillment or ecstasy, if you will. So, I didn't hear it as elegiac at all, but rather as a deeply transcendental work.
> 
> The unusual, or unidiomatic interpretation that I heard that evening on the radio was an English performance by Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields--from an old Argo LP; which I'll link to here, just to show that there is yet another way of seeing Barber's Adagio (despite that Marriner's interpretation doesn't accord to Virgil's poem in the Georgics):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which has me wondering if Sir Neville's more urgent performance, which very likely served as many Brits' introduction to Barber's Adagio, later influenced how British string quartets played this work...?


Thank you for another characteristically insightful post! I can assure you that I am, in fact, the age I claim to be I've been called an "old soul," which I guess is another way of saying that my interests don't fit at all within my demographic. That's why I spend so much time on here - because I have no one (especially my age!) to discuss great music with. I'm into great books, great ideas, and great art; and it saddens me that so many people of my generation don't realize the value of these things. I'm an English major, so I find myself fascinated with cultural applications of music and how it can be tied into other art forms such as literature. That _Rosenkavalier_ trio, by the way, is one of the very few pieces of music that is absolutely guaranteed to draw teardrops from me (I think a Weekly Opera thread would draw out some truly amazing discussions, but I realize that it's far from a universally beloved art form.). It reminds me of Barber's Adagio because I don't find it "sad" at all, but bittersweet and nostalgic, charged with intimations of the divine. I absolutely agree with your description of "spiritual ecstasy," but I don't think that excludes "elegaic." Perhaps we can think of it as reaching for spirituality in an age where chaos lurks on the horizon. Like all the best art, I find that it mixes various emotions and qualities to such an extent that it's difficult to really describe it with one adjective. And maybe that's for the better. As for Mahler's 9th, I think your interpretation is very valid and interesting, and I have several thoughts on that symphony (which is my favorite of all time) as well, but I don't want to divert the thread too much. I'll just say that I love being able to have such deep and meaningful conversations via the online medium.



Merl said:


> I used too right well good like ACB when I was a children. Now, I can't be ars*d


Sorry, Google Translate doesn't work on this:lol:


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

*Bwv 1080* is up next week! List of scheduled nominators:

Bwv 1080
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


----------



## Merl

starthrower said:


> Are you at the pub again, Merl? I don't think I appreciated English literature very much during my school days. I don't remember hearing about Virgil but we had to read that bloody Beowulf tale that went on for days. Incidentally, I went to a library sale a couple of years ago and ended up buying both hardcover volumes of The Norton Anthology of World Masterpieces for two dollars each. Now I have The Aeneid, and Beowulf!


We had to study that bloody awful Beowulf tosh when I stayed on at school. Luckily I left and never had to read that incredibly overlong borefest ever again. Although much shorter, I loathe that ridiculous Jabberwocky poem too.


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## Enthusiast

^ I really enjoy old English literature (in transation, though) and many of the Norse sagas even more. Not fodder for school kids, perhaps, but a gifted teacher might turn kids on to it.


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## starthrower

They don't teach classical mythology in schools so to force kids to read Milton and other poets with no background in the Greek and Roman classics is futile. They won't recognize or understand any of the references. I started learning about this stuff when I bought a copy of Bulfinch's Mythology. Of course the old classical composers were taught this stuff because they've mined the subject matter for their operas and other works. Bulfinch's father was a prominent architect in early America and designed some of the famous structures in Washington D.C.


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## Kreisler jr

Even when I was a kid in the 1980s many learned at least the core of classical mythology at school (more than the Norse stuff). Of course, usually bowdlerized versions with the sex and abuse reduced. But it would have been standard fare until the mid-20th century for anyone with half an education, even for those who did not study Latin and Greek sufficiently to read/translate the epics, tragedies etc. as there had been translations and children's versions since the early 1800s or earlier.


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## Allegro Con Brio

_Beowulf_ is a remarkable work of art that offers insight into an otherwise obscure period of European history. If you had to read it in high school and hated it, I'd highly recommend the Seanus Heaney translation, which is not idiomatic but it is given the drive and lyricism of a Homeric epic. Its themes are really surprisingly rich if you dig beneath the apparently silly plot. Starthrower, yes; you need to know the basics about ancient history and mythology before you tackle any epic poetry. I also feel like students are taught these books just because "they're great" rather than being actually encouraged to relate their messages to their own life and truly appreciate them. Too often they are told what they are supposed to mean rather than being given the chance to exercise critical thinking and come up with their own interpretations, which is a creative and exciting process.

Good grief, how'd we get on this topic?? We're not even discussing Wagner and we're talking about Norse/Old English mythology? Ah, the felicities of this thread...:lol:


----------



## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> _Beowulf_ is a remarkable work of art that offers insight into an otherwise obscure period of European history. If you had to read it in high school and hated it, I'd highly recommend the Seanus Heaney translation, which is not idiomatic but it is given the drive and lyricism of a Homeric epic. Its themes are really surprisingly rich if you dig beneath the apparently silly plot. Starthrower, yes; you need to know the basics about ancient history and mythology before you tackle any epic poetry. I also feel like students are taught these books just because "they're great" rather than being actually encouraged to relate their messages to their own life and truly appreciate them. Too often they are told what they are supposed to mean rather than being given the chance to exercise critical thinking and come up with their own interpretations, which is a creative and exciting process.
> 
> Good grief, how'd we get on this topic?? We're not even discussing Wagner and we're talking about Norse/Old English mythology? Ah, the felicities of this thread...:lol:


I guess I missed her - who is Felicity?
(waits for Orange Juice reference)


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> We had to study that bloody awful Beowulf tosh when I stayed on at school. Luckily I left and never had to read that incredibly overlong borefest ever again. Although much shorter, I loathe that ridiculous Jabberwocky poem too.


But what do you *really* think of them? :lol:


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## Josquin13

ACB writes, "I'm into great books, great ideas, and great art; and it saddens me that so many people of my generation don't realize the value of these things. I'm an English major, so I find myself fascinated with cultural applications of music and how it can be tied into other art forms such as literature."

I've long been fascinated by how the various art forms closely connect to each other, as well (and to the natural world & cosmos). It is a pursuit that has preoccupied me. & over the course of my life, I've found that the more deeply you study literature, music, theater, poetry, painting, sculpture, & architecture, the more you see how they all are merely brothers & sisters of each other. They have so many different areas & elements in common.

Have you gotten to Andrea Palladio and his use of musical harmonic ratios within the proportions of his buildings, yet? Or, how all the various art forms use the golden section or divine proportion or Fibonacci number series? such as in painting composition, or in a 3 to 5 act play structure, or in poetic meter (such as iambic pentameter), or musical intervals--such as in certain works by Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Beethoven, etc., which, most interestingly, can occur both consciously and intuitively on the artist's part: 



. Even though it's often more consciously done than people realize. For example, golden section calipers used to be standard art studio equipment in the old days, and of course any architect that knows what they are doing, uses these calipers, too. (Today, even plastic surgeons use them.)

For me, the most important art form is architecture, because it defines how we live, and to a good extent the health and happiness of a community or society. But I love music, plays, poetry, and painting the most.

It saddens me, too, what you say. It wasn't always as bad as it is today, in America. I've had to watch the decline of American culture (& civilty), decade by decade, over the course of my life. The older arts generation that I once admired in this country has been dying off over the past several decades, and I don't see who or what is going to replace them. I hope that I am being naive or overly negative. But frighteningly, it's also the audience, too. For example, the majority of the people that I see attending classical music concerts today have white hair, & that greatly concerns me. What will happen when they all pass away, soon, over the next couple of decades? Will this country become an even more deranged and non-existent culture (without any real legacy)? In my view, the decline of our schools and educational system is largely to blame (especially between elementary school & college). But then, education starts at home. & how can a person love & value something if they don't even know it exists? I suppose it also has to do with the misplaced values of our current society. But then, that has long been a problem in America. Yet!, there are still many people today with good intentions, who want to help the arts to flourish, so there's hope.

ACB writes, "Like all the best art, I find that it mixes various emotions and qualities to such an extent that it's difficult to really describe it with one adjective."

Yes, I agree, if you could describe it with a single adjective, it'd be a waste of time. Plus, all great art has an inherent duality (or light & dark conflict), like life. It reflects the world.


----------



## starthrower

Josquin, I just bought some tickets to go hear the Dover Quartet in August so I'm hoping to see some people in attendance without white hair! As far as the mainstream culture in America is concerned it looks rather hopeless. But as usual there are always good things happening around the country below the radar of the programmed or indifferent masses.


----------



## Art Rock

I'm splitting the discussion about organization into a separate thread:

How to organize the weekly string quartet thread

This announcement will be deleted in about a week.


----------



## Bwv 1080

My choice for the week is *Brian Ferneyhough String Quartet no 6.*

In this quartet, Brian moves away from his ultra-complex modern style, to a more accessible tonal language based on Irish folk tunes

Ok, so that was a lie, the piece is ultra complex and modern.

BF published this, his last quartet to date, in 2010. The only recording I am aware of is the Arditti, which can be found on the streaming services or on youtube.

What makes this piece different than, say, Carter or Schoenberg? Its definitely in the same tradition, just 'more'. The rhythmic complexity is more local than Carter, who tends to have very slow polyrhythms whereas for Ferneyhough most everything lines up at the bar, but the complexity of the nested subdivisions is higher. The use of quarter-tones (the notes between halfsteps) and, in this piece, eighth-tones, give different melodic and harmonic possibilities.

The piece is a single movement, running around 20 minutes. The pitch structure centers around three notes - Bb, D F#, each pitch having what he calls a 'distorted dominant' - A perfect 5th above Bb, a 5th raised by a quarter-tone for D and a quarter-flat 5th for F#. The low string on the Cello is tuned down to Bb to reinforce this. The rhythms come from his tree-like structure where most everything lines up to a bar, but you have layers of subdivisions, which creates the complexity.

If you aren't familiar with his work, it takes some 'zen' listening - trying to just hear what is going on without trying to 'get' the music. His use of quarter tones make for some gnarly dissonances, but that is part of the fun. I keep finding more in this piece with each listen. Hope you all like it.

There is a great documentary on youtube showing the Arditti's initial rehearsals with the composer and provides some good background


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## Bwv 1080

Here is the outline of the form, which contains something like 100 individual sections


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## Allegro Con Brio

I was fully expecting him to be picked someday and bracing myself for the inevitable adventure into new horizons, but I’m excited and interested in taking the plunge! This will be my first encounter with him since he has such a, well, “thorny” reputation, shall we say. Nice, unorthodox pick.


----------



## Mandryka

There are two recordings as far as I know, both played by Arditti, one on the Neos recording of performances at Donaueschingen in 2010, one on the Ferneyhouugh music for strings set on Aeon. I am very much looking forward to Merl's comparison.

This thread says "Just a music lover perspective." This listener was very attracted to the cello part.

Let me tell you a story. When I was a university teacher I had a colleague who liked bel canto. One day he got a ticket to hear Strauss's _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_, and when I saw him afterwards he said to me "It was terrible. There are no tunes!" The paradox is that it is full of tunes, but he couldn't hear them.

I wonder if anyone here will be unable to hear the tunes in this quartet.


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## starthrower

Donaueschinger Musiktage 2010

I just finished listening to this recording. Probably the first time I've listened to 20+ minutes of Ferneyhough in one stretch. I found it to be highly listenable due to the fact that it isn't overly dense, and it has a conversational flow of ideas that kept me engaged. The ending arrived rather abruptly but this is something I've gotten used to with a lot of modern pieces. I'm not qualified to comment on the technical or theoretical aspects so I'll leave that to the musically literate folks here.


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> There are two recordings as far as I know, both played by Arditti, one on the Neos recording of performances at Donaueschingen in 2010, one on the Ferneyhouugh music for strings set on Aeon. I am very much looking forward to Merl's comparison.


I believe they are the same recording - have not listened to the Neos disk, but the 23:58 track length is identical to the Aeon complete quartets & trios set


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## starthrower

Sounds different to my ears.


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## SearsPoncho

The second paragraph of BMV's nomination gave me a good laugh. Tonal, Irish folk tunes. 

The resilience of the string quartet since Debussy wrote his at the twilight of the 19th century is amazing. I'm not sure any other traditional, classical genre has fared as well, or been subject to as many modern iterations. Even the most avant-garde composers of the 20th and 21st centuries have felt compelled to write a string quartet, despite ignoring other classical genres, such as symphonies, concertos and piano sonatas.


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## Mandryka

The 2010 live performance is thrilling, intense, unpredictable. That’s the one to hear! It will make the hairs on the back of your neck bristle.

One thing I want to say about the complexity. As a listener it’s irrelevant. I mean, who cares if it’s hard to play? To me this quartet doesn’t sound any more complex than something by Bach or Mozart.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> There are two recordings as far as I know, both played by Arditti, one on the Neos recording of performances at Donaueschingen in 2010, one on the Ferneyhouugh music for strings set on Aeon. *I am very much looking forward to Merl's comparison*.


:lol:

Actually, I just listened to the Donaueschinger Musiktage account and didn't mind it at all. Hey, I'm mellowing in my old age. :guitar:


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> :lol:
> 
> Actually, I just listened to the Donaueschinger Musiktage account and didn't mind it at all.


The upload with the transcription sounds different from the one on the NEOS album upload although they claim to be the same. Maybe I'm just getting ear fatigue comparing all three?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I think this is a great work. I'm only familiar with the studio recording, so I'm going to be listening to the live one.


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## Bwv 1080

The video I posted on the op has some great stuff in it - including the Arditti’s first attempt at reading through the quartet

Also great to watch the rapport between the qt and BF - taking the music seriously but not themselves


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## starthrower

The Arditti's and all of their innovative recordings would make for a great thread on its own.


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## Knorf

Apologies (as if anyone missed me) for not posting in a bit. I've been away playing at a summer music festival, with little time for recreational listening.

I was fortunate enough to be able to study with Brian Ferneyhough at Darmstadt, and adore his chamber music for strings, esp. the String Trio and Quartet No. 6. That documentary "Climbing a Mountain" is terrific. Definitely worth a little time. 

Ferneyhough's music is amazing, and made a huge impact on me, admittedly not until I heard it live. But I like listening to recordings of it now as well. Side note: Brian is an amazing teacher, capable of effectively and constructively getting at the most critical elements of any student's music regardless of style. I never felt the least pressure to write music like him (I didn't and don't.) 

I like Barber's Quartet very much as well. Despite the usual now-TC-clichéd, fashionable bashing of the Emerson String Quartet, their Barber is the choice for me, with the best balance between modernist and neo-Romantic elements. Also, the recording isn't something I'd write home about, but I feel obligated to point out that there are far, far worse recordings (of different repertoire) that many of you lot have gushed over.


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## Portamento

Since I'm supposed to pick a quartet next week, I thought I'd get back into the swing of things. There's been some great discussion of Ferneyhough in his composer guestbook and I'm excited to continue that here.

I haven't heard this one in a long time, though I remember having a vaguely positive experience. Happy to revisit it! The string quartet seems like the perfect medium for Ferneyhough, large enough for endless metrical complexity but small enough to avoid being overly idealistic (as I think is sometimes the case with his orchestral works).

Here is Ferneyhough's response when asked whether he wants to confuse his audiences:

_"No. What I want to do is for them to suspend disbelief for a little bit and therefore enter into a sort of Alice in Wonderland world - through the little hole by drinking the potion - and try to even in the most confusing and seemingly chaotic circumstances to try to hold onto something."_​
It's worth a shot, isn't it?


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## Art Rock

Thanks to the work of Merl and especially StevehamNY, the master list in the first post has been updated with the relevant links to the discussions per quartet. Great work guys!


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## Merl

I watched the Climbing a Mountain quartet and found it really interesting. Helped me understand a little more the composer's intentions and marginally improved my listening appreciation of it but I'll leave it to others to enjoy it, this week.


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## HenryPenfold

Had a quick listen this morning. All the notes are in the right order, but they are not necessarily the right notes. I'll try again this week.


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## Enthusiast

I’m really not sure about the Barber quartet. After a couple of playings I didn’t like the Emerson’s account because its first movement seemed rather dry emotionally. I don’t think my reaction is because I am anti-Emersons – indeed I have many of their records (and mostly like them – just not in Beethoven) and this was the recording of the Barber that I had in my collection – but because they seemed to my ears to do little for the music for all their technical perfection. I liked their Adagio well enough but this is one quartet where I am now looking for a replacement CD. 

Replacing the Emersons’ disk with one I prefer is not easy. I really enjoyed the Brodsky account of the first movement – there is a languidness that makes the piece work for me and showed me what I had been missing with the Emersons. Their Dvorak American Quartet (also on their disc) is lovely. But I found their Barber Adagio a bit boring. 

I liked the Endellion recording and like that it comes on a disc with many Barber pieces (mostly songs) that I like a lot and have not got in my collection. The Endellions characterise the music of the first movement quite effectively (this is one of those performances that I feel talks to me and each phrase seems to carry meaning). Their Adagio is also fine. Slower than many but beautiful and very effective. Again, the music seems personal and communicative. 

The Tokyo recording is bigger and very musical. Are they a little overblown in the first movement? Perhaps. They risk a little emotion in the Adagio but keep this well under control with the result of a beautifully realised and powerful account, perhaps the best I have heard. But the Tokyo’s couplings are less attractive to me as the main work, Britten’s 2nd, is already well covered in my collection. I think the Tokyo is the best of the ones I listened to but I will buy the Endellion disk.

I have now moved on to the Ferneyhough, a work I have some small familiarity with and tend to enjoy listening to. But I could not claim to know it so this is a great choice for me. There is nothing to compare the Arditti with and I lack the facility to analyse the work so all I will be able to do is to post some impressions before the week ends.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Mandryka said:


> The 2010 live performance is thrilling, intense, unpredictable. That's the one to hear! It will make the hairs on the back of your neck bristle.


After listening to the live recording, I agree with this assessment, not because the studio recording is lacking in something, but I don't remember it having all the warmth and clarity in texture of the live performance.



> The ending arrived rather abruptly but this is something I've gotten used to with a lot of modern pieces.


I understand where this is coming from, but when you listen again, and really focus on the flow of ideas, I think that the ending is quite satisfactory and an apt resolution to all that came before, in the sense that for me this quartet really is not too intense, it just hovers above the ground, and it is rather fragile, so it doesn't need to go out in a bang, or make a definitive statement, in my opinion.


----------



## Malx

Art Rock said:


> Thanks to the work of Merl and especially StevehamNY, the master list in the first post has been updated with the relevant links to the discussions per quartet. Great work guys!


I'd also like to add my thanks to you guys. 
That work has got to be good for a beer - Steve I can see a wee logistical problem with that offer


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## Malx

First listen to the Ferneyhough this morning, the studio recording. I am new to this work so will pass no comment at this juncture - I did not give it full attention but I will listen again when the mood suits.


----------



## Clloydster

So is there an aversion in modern musical composition to create anything sonically appealing? Like beautiful melodies is SOOO 19th century? I enjoy the brief interludes in this thread of Beethoven and Haydn. But I'm sitting out this week as well. I made it five minutes into this one, and that is all the time I'm going to give it. I'm sure it takes more musical sophistication that I have to appreciate this stuff, and I'm fine with that.


----------



## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> I'd also like to add my thanks to you guys.
> That work has got to be good for a beer - Steve I can see a wee logistical problem with that offer


Malx, my friend, I had a memorable week in Scotland, playing some of the great courses and enjoying a little time in the pubs, but this sounds like a great excuse to come back!


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## Mandryka

Clloydster said:


> So is there an aversion in modern musical composition to create anything sonically appealing? Like beautiful melodies is SOOO 19th century? I enjoy the brief interludes in this thread of Beethoven and Haydn. But I'm sitting out this week as well. I made it five minutes into this one, and that is all the time I'm going to give it. I'm sure it takes more musical sophistication that I have to appreciate this stuff, and I'm fine with that.


Listen to the cello, it's clearer in the studio recording.


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## Bwv 1080

Always thought this is a good introductory BF piece - one instrument, no quarter-tones or extended techniques - just focuses on his melodic and rhythmic inventiveness - how many composers can sustain 5 minutes of captivating music for solo piccolo?


----------



## Clloydster

Mandryka said:


> Listen to the cello, it's clearer in the studio recording.


What exactly should I be hearing? I sampled thoughout both of the videos posted - I found nothing that I would call beautiful. At best, it would make good background soundtrack in a horror movie. Is that what I should be feeling? Wonderful mood music for walking through a dilapidated house with a serial killer stalking you with some large sharp instrument with which to hack/dismember/decapitate you?


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## starthrower

Of course all modern music is about scary movies and blood. Thanks for the insight, Clloydster.


----------



## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Malx, my friend, I had a memorable week in Scotland, playing some of the great courses and enjoying a little time in the pubs, but this sounds like a great excuse to come back!


Well if you come back, Steve, you can join me and Malx for a beer. I can vouch for him, he's a nice guy (but very, very old ). How does The Balgeddie sound again, Malx, seeing as you're 'in the chair'? Maybe we'll be able to offload all those cds we have duplicates of, on him. If you're not gonna be over for while, Steve, I'll keep Malx to his promise and he can take me for a beer next week (weather dependent).


----------



## Bwv 1080

Clloydster said:


> What exactly should I be hearing? I sampled thoughout both of the videos posted - I found nothing that I would call beautiful. At best, it would make good background soundtrack in a horror movie. Is that what I should be feeling? Wonderful mood music for walking through a dilapidated house with a serial killer stalking you with some large sharp instrument with which to hack/dismember/decapitate you?


I bet most non-classical music fans cannot listen to Haydn without picturing people in powdered wigs sipping tea


----------



## Mandryka

Clloydster said:


> What exactly should I be hearing? I sampled thoughout both of the videos posted - I found nothing that I would call beautiful. At best, it would make good background soundtrack in a horror movie. Is that what I should be feeling? Wonderful mood music for walking through a dilapidated house with a serial killer stalking you with some large sharp instrument with which to hack/dismember/decapitate you?


You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


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## Clloydster

Bwv 1080 said:


> I bet most non-classical music fans cannot listen to Haydn without picturing people in powdered wigs sipping tea


Probably. There was a time I would have thought that as well, more than likely.


----------



## Clloydster

starthrower said:


> Of course all modern music is about scary movies and blood. Thanks for the insight, Clloydster.


Not what I said. That performative piece, with knitting needles in cellos, didn't evoke such images. Like I said, I don't have the years of experience, or any training in this - I just know how it feels and sounds to me. And what I heard sounds very much like the mood music playing in the background of horror/scary movies - it puts you on edge, it doesn't ever let you feel settled, it gives you an ominous feeling that something terrible is forthcoming. That is the goal of that music, and it is very effective. The soundtrack to Psycho is not anything I would call beautiful, but it certainly produced that gut reaction Hitchcock was going for when the shadowy figure appears and plunges the knife.

There is nothing settling in the Ferneyhough piece to my ear, nothing that lets you ease in. It feels and sounds all jagged. There is nothing I would call beautiful in it. Yeah, I know I don't add much intellectual discussion to this thread - I was told I didn't have to when invited to join in. I just thought there would also be room in here for the occasional, "I really didn't like this piece" commentary.

But I'll shut up and bow out if that is what you want - I would classify myself as a music lover, didn't realize that meant you had to love all music.


----------



## Clloydster

Mandryka said:


> You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.


I see you have changed your post in the time it took me to click "Reply with Quote," so my response will probably be pointless now. Look - I voice what I hear, and I was actually being serious in that this music sounds like a horror movie soundtrack, but I did go back, as you suggested, and listened to the cello, but don't know what you were thinking I would hear. I mentioned how I didn't find anything melodic, so I assumed that there must be something melodic to the cello line - but I couldn't find it. So I was asking you for what you meant.


----------



## Clloydster

I'll likely bow out of this. You all enjoy these types of string quartets and I don't get much out of them, and you don't want to hear my opinions of them. So I'll leave you to it. I guess I just luckily stumbled in on a Beethoven quartet, thinking that was going to be more the rule than the exception, but you have all been at this for a long time now, so I'm guessing most of the stuff I'd be interested in has already been covered, and rather than derail your appreciation of these other modern works, I'll bid you all adieu.


----------



## Enthusiast

Clloydster said:


> I know I don't add much intellectual discussion to this thread - I was told I didn't have to when invited to join in. I just thought there would also be room in here for the occasional, "I really didn't like this piece" commentary.
> 
> But I'll shut up and bow out if that is what you want - I would classify myself as a music lover, didn't realize that meant you had to love all music.


Of course you can say you don't like a piece - I do occasionally - and can also say what you don't like. That's fair enough. But you actually said something a little different. It seemed from your post that you believe the music (and indeed most music written in its time) to be bad and even advance a view as to why a composer chose to compose such perverse music:



> So is there an aversion in modern musical composition to create anything sonically appealing? Like beautiful melodies is SOOO 19th century? I enjoy the brief interludes in this thread of Beethoven and Haydn. But I'm sitting out this week as well. I made it five minutes into this one, and that is all the time I'm going to give it. I'm sure it takes more musical sophistication that I have to appreciate this stuff, and I'm fine with that.


That is not the same as saying you don't like it and comes close to suggesting that those who do are mistaken. I think you are welcome to say you don't like a piece and to drop out of the week if you don't feel attracted to the opportunity to explore it a little more deeply. I'm sure you will not be alone in dropping out of this one but if you set the limit at Haydn and Beethoven you will be dropping out of many.


----------



## Mandryka

Clloydster said:


> I see you have changed your post in the time it took me to click "Reply with Quote," so my response will probably be pointless now. Look - I voice what I hear, and I was actually being serious in that this music sounds like a horror movie soundtrack, but I did go back, as you suggested, and listened to the cello, but don't know what you were thinking I would hear. I mentioned how I didn't find anything melodic, so I assumed that there must be something melodic to the cello line - but I couldn't find it. So I was asking you for what you meant.


The problem is this, you have voiced what you heard . . . now what? Thanks for sharing but the share kind of leads nowhere. Nobody can change your sensibilities, if you don't feel that the cello part is beautiful I can't lead you to a different sensibility other than by sharing what I hear. Maybe one day I will feel like you and vice versa.

Now there's nothing more to be said.


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## starthrower

> Not what I said.





> Wonderful mood music for walking through a dilapidated house with a serial killer stalking you with some large sharp instrument with which to hack/dismember/decapitate you?


I suppose Hollywood can be blamed for these associations. At least you gave it a shot. And I don't believe people need any special training to enjoy this type of music. It's a matter of taste. My own lie somewhere in between Haydn and Ferneyhough.


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## Clloydster

Mandryka said:


> The problem is this, you have voiced what you heard . . . now what? Thanks for sharing but the share kind of leads nowhere. Nobody can change your sensibilities, if you don't feel that the cello part is beautiful I can't lead you to a different sensibility other than by sharing what I hear. Maybe one day I will feel like you and vice versa.
> 
> Now there's nothing more to be said.


Got it. But you didn't lead anywhere either with your reply. Just a nebulous reply. And I followed your advice, but not being told what to listen for in the cello, I have no clue if I even heard what you intended for me to hear.

And again, you keep changing your replies after I click to reply.


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## Clloydster

starthrower said:


> I suppose Hollywood can be blamed for these associations. At least you gave it a shot. And I don't believe people need any special training to enjoy this type of music. It's a matter of taste. My own lie somewhere in between Haydn and Ferneyhough.


What you said was:


> Of course all modern music is about scary movies and blood. Thanks for the insight, Clloydster.


I have not made such a claim about any of the other modern pieces I have heard on here, because I didn't feel that way about them. This one, in particular, evoked such images. So yes, I did say it about this piece. I did not, as you imply, state that is common to all modern music. I look at each piece individually, and have given every work put up here a shot. No - I didn't listen to all 24 minutes of this work - with my initial listen, and then trying to see what Mandryka said about the cello, I've listened to about 10 minutes. But I have listened to other modern works in this thread all the way through.

I compared it to horror movie soundtrack because that was the feeling I had while listening to it. I don't have the sophistication to compare it to other things, or to discuss the technical aspects - or, apparently, to hear the beauty in the cello line.

So anyways - I'll just lurk and find recommendations when they fall into that pretty broad category of music I like (most anything in the baroque, classical and romantic periods). And I'll leave the discussion to those with more to offer.


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## StevehamNY

Having gone through this forum from the beginning to build the list of links yesterday, the trip down memory lane also reminded me of how snippy (bordering on outright ugly) this place got during the Schoenberg week. The irony of getting so worked up about something like serialism when we were all enduring a literal plague. Maybe it served as a distraction or a release valve, I don't know. But I personally think that Merl has set the gold standard on how to deal with music that doesn't please his ear: "Ain't my cup of tea, seeya next week." (I'm paraphrasing, not sure how often Merl says "ain't" or "seeya.")

Having said that, Clloydster, I hope you stick around.


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## starthrower

Pardon my bit of sarcasm. But I see this so much on the internet. The immediate association with horror movies when reacting to dissonant music. If that's the way you hear the Ferneyhough quartet than I accept your honest reaction.


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## Malx

Come on guys its only music can we remember the meaning of a little word.

Tolerance: 'the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with'

Its one of the things that makes this thread special.


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## Portamento

Clloydster said:


> There is nothing settling in the Ferneyhough piece to my ear, nothing that lets you ease in. It feels and sounds all jagged. There is nothing I would call beautiful in it. Yeah, I know I don't add much intellectual discussion to this thread - I was told I didn't have to when invited to join in. I just thought there would also be room in here for the occasional, "I really didn't like this piece" commentary.
> 
> But I'll shut up and bow out if that is what you want - I would classify myself as a music lover, didn't realize that meant you had to love all music.


No need to "shut up and bow out"! It seems to me that you've made an honest effort to relate to Ferneyhough's music and were not successful. That is completely fine. I, for one, welcome the "I really didn't like this piece" comments. (I made one myself when it was time to hear Borodin #2.)

I actually agree with your description of the piece. It _is_ jagged, not conventionally beautiful, and doesn't give the listener an easy way in. Ferneyhough is essentially doing whatever the f*** he wants and knows that, as a consequence, the vast majority of listeners will not want to give his music the repeated hearings it needs in order for it to make any sense. He is less interested in writing music which is accessible than he is in writing "good music" that reflects on the tradition of art music and seeks continuously to renew it. It's the paradox of the modern composer: make music which has both lasting value and an immediate appeal for the uninitiated listener. Only a handful have achieved both simultaneously; most don't try.

As Duke Ellington said: "If it sounds good, it is good." Ferneyhough's music sounds good to me, but it won't for everyone (or even most).


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## Bwv 1080

but who ever liked single malt scotch the first time they tried it? Things that are unfamiliar require some patience

And there is a world of difference between saying 'single malt scotch is nasty' and 'people who claim to like single malt scotch are just fools trying to be sophisticated and in reality the emperor has no clothes, blah blah blah'. Have not heard the latter argument here, which is the only one I object to.


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## HenryPenfold

Bwv 1080 said:


> but who ever liked single malt scotch the first time they tried it?


Me.

What made Scotland famous, made a loser out of me ......


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## Mandryka

Clloydster said:


> I have no clue if I even heard what you intended for me to hear.


What I intended you to hear was the cello part. You heard it and how you felt about it aesthetically was not how I felt about it. Where you hear something rebarbative I don't. I can't talk you into a different response, just as you can't talk me into a different response. There are limits to language.

I don't see what more there is to be said.


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## starthrower

Malx said:


> Tolerance: 'the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with'


I'd say most members here are very tolerant. Especially when you consider the degree to which listeners here parse, dissect, and criticize various works and performances.


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## Malx

Merl said:


> Well if you come back, Steve, you can join me and Malx for a beer. I can vouch for him, he's a nice guy (but very, very old ). How does The Balgeddie sound again, Malx, seeing as you're 'in the chair'? Maybe we'll be able to offload all those cds we have duplicates of, on him. If you're not gonna be over for while, Steve, I'll keep Malx to his promise and he can take me for a beer next week (weather dependent).


Steve - I will certainly stand a round if you re-visit gods country, and we are only 30 mins drive from St Andrews. That Merl isn't all bad but can be a bit cheeky for a (not that young) whippersnapper.


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## Malx

starthrower said:


> I'd say most members here are very tolerant. Especially when you consider the degree to which listeners here parse, dissect, and criticize various works and performances.


My point exactly - just a little diversion from that level of tolerance is therefore noticed more on this thread.


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Things that are unfamiliar require some patience
> 
> .


I think this point goes nowhere. I am pretty familiar with, for example, Liszt's music, but I find it repulsive. The first time I heard this Ferneyhough quartet I loved it.


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## premont

Clloydster said:


> And again, you keep changing your replies after I click to reply.


Some of us do in between. Sometimes only to edit grammatical errors, but often to achieve more perfection in the expression. I regard this as a rational measure, and the purpose is not to confuse other posters. If you see that a post has been edited, you can re-read it and edit your answer accordingly.


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## StevehamNY

Mandryka said:


> I think this point goes nowhere. I am pretty familiar with, for example, Liszt's music, but I find it repulsive. The first time I heard this Ferneyhough quartet I loved it.


I respectfully disagree with this, having experienced so many rewards in this very forum by patiently giving certain quartets another try. (Or a seventh or eighth try.) Berg's Lyric Suite comes to mind immediately.


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## Portamento

StevehamNY said:


> Having gone through this forum from the beginning to build the list of links yesterday, the trip down memory lane also reminded me of how snippy (bordering on outright ugly) this place got during the Schoenberg week. The irony of getting so worked up about something like serialism when we were all enduring a literal plague. Maybe it served as a distraction or a release valve, I don't know. But I personally think that Merl has set the gold standard on how to deal with music that doesn't please his ear: "Ain't my cup of tea, seeya next week." (I'm paraphrasing, not sure how often Merl says "ain't" or "seeya.")
> 
> Having said that, Clloydster, I hope you stick around.


As the person who chose Schoenberg that week, I was not too bothered by the snippness. I don't think we should shy away from potentially contentious topics. But if I remember correctly, most of the turmoil was not so much caused by serialism, but by Adorno - who is always bound to come up in conversations about Schoenberg - and a member's deep hatred for his philosophy.


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## starthrower

One cool thing about this thread is that I couldn't possibly guess what composer or work any one member will nominate each week. When the Ferneyhough was announced I groaned for a second but then decided to jump in. And I find it more enjoyable than I had expected. Who knows how many quartets have been written? And I've come to the genre relatively late about eleven years ago and I still don't have very many definitive favorites. That's fine because I don't like to overdue it by listening to a handful of pieces too much. And now with the links in place on the first page I can go back a revisit dozens of quartets.


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## Mandryka

StevehamNY said:


> I respectfully disagree with this, having experienced so many rewards in this very forum by patiently giving certain quartets another try. (Or a seventh or eighth try.) Berg's Lyric Suite comes to mind immediately.


Maybe there are two types of people, those who like other-ness, the alien, the strange. And those who like the familiar, the predictable.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Maybe there are two types of people, those who like other-ness, the alien, the strange. And those who like the familiar, the predictable.


A couple of years ago I read a study (I wish I could give some sort of link to it, but it's just there in my memory) that claimed that the music that people like is somewhere down the middle between familiarity and surprise, or something like: a wave of surprise in a sea of familiarity


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## Kjetil Heggelund

The Arditti quartet is fabulous! Has any other ensemble been more inventive and prolific with contemporary music for such a long time? I'm glad they play so well! I didn't hear microtonality...Is it there or are my ears worn? Ferneyhough is not a composer I listen to a lot. Actually the only piece I heard many times is Kurtze Schatten II for guitar (the hardest piece in the universe). Contemporary music on the guitar tends to sound more dissonant and noisy than other instruments, at least to me. It might be there is struggle between the performer and the instrument where tone quality is the loser. The Arditti's do it right! I will hear it again, maybe with headphones. Nice choice there


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## SearsPoncho

I gotta couple three things to say (extra points for those that get the reference):

1) Knorf: Of course we missed you. You must give us some inside info!

2) *This week's quartet reminds me a lot of Webern, with it's sparse textures and fragmented "phrases" distributed in rapid succession among all members. Of course, this is much longer than Webern. I'm sure I'm way off on that, but does anyone else hear it?*.

3) Steve: Did you get a chance to check out the British Open on your golf vacation? I know nothing about golf, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.

4) Ok, this is where I get crazy, yet again, but in the Donaueschinger Musiktage 2010 link which, I believe, Starthrower provided in post #3572(?), something jumped out at me at 21:35-21:37. There are five quick notes that sound like 5 notes from the 1st movement of *Berg's Violin Concerto*. The final note is a little higher than in the Berg, but it sure sounds similar to me. Maybe I've listened to Berg's Concerto too much (Kremer/C/Davis), and I'm sure it's a coincidence because Berg's VC is based on tone-rows and this week's choice has microtones, yet I cannot stop hearing the similarity. Those 5 notes are actually played several other times, including some very quick passes in the lower registers, which make them almost sound like slurs. I'm bringing this up because, although the Berg is a 12-tone work, those 5 notes appear to be a point of emphasis, or at least they have always made quite an impression on me.

5) Merl and Steve: Thank you for your efforts re: links to the quartets. I haven't checked it out yet, but I appreciate the commitment and generosity!

6) Clloydster: Don't give up on us. I'm not giving up on you. Most of the quartets we've covered since I've joined have been tonal works with plenty of accessible tunes. I guess we're an adventurous bunch that occasionally likes to push the envelope, but stick around and you'll find much to like. What about the Adagio from Barber? Have you ever seen the movie Platoon? This is romantic, tonal heaven, and it was last week's selection (and an excellent one, I might add)!

Ok, I know I had a couple three more things to say, but I'm laying in bed, feeling woozy, hoping I don't have to go under the knife again. Sorry, guys, but my energy level is really low. I will bid you adieu for now.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> 3) Steve: Did you get a chance to check out the British Open on your golf vacation? I know nothing about golf, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence.


We were in the habit back then of going to a different country every year (Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Sweden, etc.) to play a Europe vs. America Ryder Cup-style event. Mostly fun, not that serious. We didn't attend any British Opens because we were too busy playing ourselves (and, ahem, sampling the local finest). Although we did play at many of the courses that have hosted. (The hardest of all was Carnoustie. Straight up evil that place is!)



SearsPoncho said:


> Ok, I know I had a couple three more things to say, but I'm laying in bed, feeling woozy, hoping I don't have to go under the knife again. Sorry, guys, but my energy level is really low. I will bid you adieu for now.


SP, please feel better soon!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I just want to extend a cordial word of gratitude to you all for doing your best to keep this thread welcome, warm, and civil. It is totally fine to discuss our opinions passionately, and for the vast majority of this thread we have done just that without descending into ad homs and mud-slinging. For me, criticizing the music, its intentions, its philosophy, etc. is totally OK as long we are not attacking anyone personally, whether it be the composer or the listener. And this is already a very vibrant, involved, but never nasty discussion. I mean, where else on the Internet has the conversation gone from _Beowulf_ to New Complexity to golf in Scotland in a matter of three pages?:lol:

I'm taking in the Arditti's recording right now (and yes, you can't help but give a big :tiphat: to the Ardittis, whether you like the music or not, for their incredible technique and commitment) and actually liking it a lot more than I had expected to! It sounds very similar to Carter's quartets to me, with seemingly infinite combinations of sounds drawn from the instruments. But unlike Kagel, where I just could not hear the sounds as "musical," I feel that Ferneyhough stays pretty much within the bounds of "traditional" conceptions of rhythm, timbre, etc. to forge his concoction, which it sounds like is a major component of his musical philosophy. The length is a bit tedious and it is a tick or two past the kind of music that I would listen to for pleasure (rest assured, there is plenty of modern/contemporary music for which I would and do so) but I do appreciate and admire the piece, finding it a mostly fun and genial listening exercise that doesn't take itself too seriously but manages to be quite "serious" in its level of invention at the same time. One thing is for sure - your ears never get bored! Buried in the midst of all those searing dissonances are little fleeting, random scraps of ideas that can sound like a phrase tail-end from Haydn, a jazzy riff, or a Stravinskian rhythmic game; not dissimilar to how Berio filtered the entirety of Western music through his postmodern idiom in the _Sinfonia_. It is rather like a musical game of I Spy or Where's Waldo, if such a crude comparison could actually be made. And actually, following Mandryka's advice of listening to the cello line is quite helpful for me - it can sometimes break off into something resembling traditional melodies.

Oh, and I found this brief write-up by the composer in the booklet downloaded off Primephonic:



Brian Ferneyhough said:


> In recent years I have reconsidered the role played by our variously shaped senses of time, in particular how our awareness of temporal space can be heightened or redefined by staging a discrepancy of adequation between the emplacement and unfolding of sonic materials and the time available for their individual reception. Both the orchestral piece Plötzlichkeit (2006) and the large ensemble essay Chronos-Aion (2008) are made up of a series of very short fragments, sometimes separated by pauses, sometimes directly abutting one another. My String Quartet No 6 initially seeks to apply identical basic rules but, instead of allowing them to exist as independent entities, these brief textures are constantly overlapped and embedded so as to create an unpredictable tangle of conflicting materials and time frames. In fact, this multiplicity largely undermines the spirit of the original autonomous 'time slice' principle, leading to a sort of mirrored or negative hierarchy of material and form conveying a qualitative reformulation of the work's initial conceptual environment.


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## Kreisler jr

Bwv 1080 said:


> I bet most non-classical music fans cannot listen to Haydn without picturing people in powdered wigs sipping tea


I am not sure that those totally unfamiliar with classical music would even have this association unless they had a picture of bewigged Haydn and be told that this was the composer. Many people find classical and romantic string quartets "thin and screechy".


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Maybe there are two types of people, those who like other-ness, the alien, the strange. And those who like the familiar, the predictable.


Or two types of situations? I find that whole areas of music are opened up for me once I have got into a, for me, key work. So I also find the 6th quartet immediately appealing but that is probably down to getting to know some other works by Ferneyhough earlier. I think the first time I heard any of his music I didn't know how to start.


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## premont

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> A couple of years ago I read a study (I wish I could give some sort of link to it, but it's just there in my memory) that claimed that the music that people like is somewhere down the middle between familiarity and surprise, or something like: a wave of surprise in a sea of familiarity


There is a lot of truth in this. I think the most interesting music is something that retains much of its innate unpredictability, even after becoming somewhat familiar. This may be why I prefer polyphonic music, which one can listen to in so many ways.


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## Mandryka

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> A couple of years ago I read a study (I wish I could give some sort of link to it, but it's just there in my memory) that claimed that the music that people like is somewhere down the middle between familiarity and surprise, or something like: a wave of surprise in a sea of familiarity


Or a raft of security in a turbulent ocean viz the image on the cover here


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## premont

A raft doesn't offer much security in a turbulent ocean like this.


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## Malx

I as a general rule find listening to something new to me as something that is a challenge that can manifest itself in different ways but I never dismiss anything too quickly. 
I try not to read too much, if anything, about how compositions are put together - frankly because 90% of the information will go straight over my head - what inspired them, if anything, so I can listen with as open a mind and ear as I can.

I had to struggle with putting a lot of anti-Ferneyhough writings that I had seen over the years firmly to the back of my mind. Having done the best I could to achieve that I have listened to the quartet three times now. 

I am not anti-atonal music but have to find something that I can relate to. Something like the Gerhard Quartet I proposed a while back I enjoy, this one I am not really getting anything to grab on to. The first three minutes or so are difficult for me to understand whats happening, from about 3.30 - 6.30 I hear a bit more of what I will, perhaps erroneously, describe as some kind of rhythmic pulse occuring. At various times there are little bits that threaten to become tunes but then divert away - in summary I find this piece to be, for my sensibilities, a bit too dry and academic. I am sure there is plenty to discuss and analyse in technical terms but it lacks that something that makes it speak to me.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> I as a general rule find listening to something new to me as something that is a challenge that can manifest itself in different ways but I never dismiss anything too quickly.
> I try not to read too much, if anything, about how compositions are put together - frankly because 90% of the information will go straight over my head - what inspired them, if anything, so I can listen with as open a mind and ear as I can.
> 
> I had to struggle with putting a lot of anti-Ferneyhough writings that I had seen over the years firmly to the back of my mind. Having done the best I could to achieve that I have listened to the quartet three times now.
> 
> I am not anti-atonal music but have to find something that I can relate to. Something like the Gerhard Quartet I proposed a while back I enjoy, this one I am not really getting anything to grab on to. The first three minutes or so are difficult for me to understand whats happening, from about 3.30 - 6.30 I hear a bit more of what I will, perhaps erroneously, describe as some kind of rhythmic pulse occuring. At various times there are little bits that threaten to become tunes but then divert away - in summary I find this piece to be, for my sensibilities, a bit too dry and academic. I am sure there is plenty to discuss and analyse in technical terms but it lacks that something that makes it speak to me.


This afternoon I was listening to Art of Fugue, a work which many people would also say is dry and academic. I was listening to Matteo Messori play it, and it is very expressive indeed. The problem with the Ferneyhough is that we only have an interpretation from one group, Arditti. Arditti do what they do well, but there may be other ways, who knows.

In the Arditti performances there are unexpected string effects and there are thrills. Ferneyhough takes the quartet beyond anything Webern dreamt of, and that's an achievement.

Is this quartet just a sort of virtuoso piece? Does it express only the structural elements of the material, or is there more to be said?

The photo on the cover of the studio set of quartets is evocative. I wonder if the music lives up to the pic.

The 6th quartet is relatively late, he was an established master. Is it too stable, too coherent, too structured, too limited, too predictable, too must like the previous four quartets, too much following a sclerotic way of thinking, too safe? Too much trying to be a masterpiece?

I wonder if anyone prefers his earlier music? The sonatas for string quartet for example


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## Bwv 1080

Sometime I will dedicate some time to the Sonatas (the 1st String Quartet in his output). Am only familiar with 2-6. Would recommend #4 as the next SQ to check out. The piece was modelled after Schoenberg's 2nd and includes a soprano


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## Mandryka

To give you an idea of the stature of the sonatas, there are four recordings - two from Arditti, one from Berne (which I would love to hear -- does anyone have a transfer) and one from the Gaudeamus quartet. In addition Diotima performed them for broadcast by the BBC (does anyone have a recording of it?)


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> To give you an idea of the stature of the sonatas, there are four recordings


Perhaps it simple means they are too easy to play


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Here is the outline of the form, which contains something like 100 individual sections


It's interesting to have this, where is it from? I wonder if the sections are connected more than, e.g. the sonatas.



Bwv 1080 said:


> Sometime I will dedicate some time to the Sonatas (the 1st String Quartet in his output).


The first Arditti is more impressive than the second I think.


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## Portamento

For those so inclined: there is a great resource by Paul Archbold which includes an analytical overview of the piece, some strageties the Ardittis employed in learning it, and transcripts of interviews with Ferneyhough + Irvine Arditti. You can download it *here*.

The harmonic language is actually not so complicated from a bird's-eye view, being largely centered around a Bb-D-F# augmented triad with various microtonal embellishments. In the "Climbing a Mountain" documentary, Ferneyhough describes a part of the piece where this triad is heard particularly clearly as the "wet dreams of Mahler" (which, I must admit, had me dying laughing).


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## Allegro Con Brio

New Complexity. What is it? Is it the Yang to Minimalism’s Yin? What is it trying to do? Does it have an ironic side or is it dead serious? Should performers strive for complete accuracy in all the details of the incredibly dense scores? Just trying to start a discussion.

BTW, another huge thanks to Steve for setting up the links on all the quartets. I have immensely enjoyed going back and revisiting everyone’s insights. And I forgot just how funny this thread can be. I literally laughed out loud at several points looking back. Y’all are a bunch of real rib-ticklers!


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> New Complexity. What is it? Is it the Yang to Minimalism's Yin? What is it trying to do? Does it have an ironic side or is it dead serious? Should performers strive for complete accuracy in all the details of the incredibly dense scores? Just trying to start a discussion.
> 
> BTW, another huge thanks to Steve for setting up the links on all the quartets. I have immensely enjoyed going back and revisiting everyone's insights. And I forgot just how funny this thread can be. I literally laughed out loud at several points looking back. Y'all are a bunch of real rib-ticklers!


How you enjoying the quartet?


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## Portamento

Allegro Con Brio said:


> New Complexity. What is it? Is it the Yang to Minimalism's Yin? What is it trying to do? Does it have an ironic side or is it dead serious? Should performers strive for complete accuracy in all the details of the incredibly dense scores? Just trying to start a discussion.


These are loaded questions. I will try to make a long post addressing them tomorrow, but some can be answered quickly.

*Does it have an ironic side or is it dead serious?*

There's definitely an ironic side. Ferneyhough can have a wicked sense of humor.

*Should performers strive for complete accuracy in all the details of the incredibly dense scores?*

Yes, and the performer's inevitable failure to do so is where much of the interest lies. In a good Ferneyhough performance, you can _hear_ people attempting to scale what is like a musical Mt. Everest; there's a real physicality to it that can only be achieved by the score's "too-muchness" and players' subsequent efforts to make sense of (what is certainly) alien terrain.


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> How you enjoying the quartet?


I'm struggling. Always have done, with Ferneyhough. I am accustomed to listening to the music of composers such as Lachenmann, Birtwistle, Cage, Crumb, Boulez et al, and I always find something appealing and captivating. But somehow Ferneyhough leaves me cold.

As a serious music fan, I of course have approached his music with an open, enquiring and curious mind and a number of years ago, before streaming and when little or nothing was available on YouTube etc, I bought a CD (see below) of his music and spent a fair amount of time listening to it. But, I'm afraid his art eludes me.


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## Mandryka

I like the quartet and it’s true that this thread has revived my interest in Ferneyhough - but NOT the quartets in fact. I’ve been really enjoying two things this week - an early mass, The Missa Brevis. And a very late cycle called Umbrations.

I like early Ferneyhough a lot. I think the early music is bold and thrilling and totally “unbuttoned” in a 1960s way. The later music like the 6th quartet is very fine, crafted with skill and is in some ways rather austere and serious.

I enthusiastically recommend the Missa Brevis to anyone who has the stomach for, e.g., the Ligetti Requiem or Barraqué’s Le Temps Restitué (but Ferneyhough is better than Barraqué) or Sciarrino’s madrigals.


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## Bwv 1080

HenryPenfold said:


> I'm struggling. Always have done, with Ferneyhough. I am accustomed to listening to the music of composers such as Lachenmann, Birtwistle, Cage, Crumb, Boulez et al, and I always find something appealing and captivating. But somehow Ferneyhough leaves me cold.
> 
> As a serious music fan, I of course have approached his music with an open, enquiring and curious mind and a number of years ago, before streaming and when little or nothing was available on YouTube etc, I bought a CD (see below) of his music and spent a fair amount of time listening to it. But, I'm afraid his art eludes me.


That is a great disc - his cycle of chamber concertos (La Chute, Terrain, Allgebrah, Les Froissments) are some of my favorite pieces


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> New Complexity. What is it? Is it the Yang to Minimalism's Yin? What is it trying to do? Does it have an ironic side or is it dead serious? Should performers strive for complete accuracy in all the details of the incredibly dense scores? Just trying to start a discussion.


For me, you just cannot enjoy this music being wholly serious, at one point the levee breaks, _and when the levee breaks I'll have no place to stay_ (god I haven't listened to Zeppelin in 10 years and I still remember the lyrics). Even if it from the part of the composer or from the performers, the pieces of this style that I love are those in which I can find something emotional to latch on to, and you can't have emotion, humour included, while being absolutely dead serious. That's just not a right approach


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka said:


> How you enjoying the quartet?


An interesting and even fun listen, but not the kind of thing I would return to repeatedly for pleasure. A great choice for this thread though!


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> An interesting and even fun listen, but not the kind of thing I would return to repeatedly for pleasure. A great choice for this thread though!


About the same for me. I listened to the quartet a couple times through and I made an attempt to get through Terrain from that Kairos CD. It's just too many notes for my taste. Too much nervous and hyperactivity. I'm more drawn to stuff like Saariaho, Ligeti, and the French spectral composers. When I listen to Ferneyhough it sounds like a guy who needs to get out for some fresh air more often. That said, I'm in favor of every kind of music imaginable to flourish sufficiently for the audience that enjoys it. And in the future I may discover a piece or two by Ferneyhough that really clicks. I like to keep an open mind about these things.


----------



## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> It's just too many notes for my taste. Too much nervous and hyperactivity. .


Yes, this is something I can see. Busy music like that seems to be really out of style. I listened to some Richard Barrett recently, something he released a few months ago, and it's full of notes and I thought to myself, this sounds like it was written in the 20th century or something! As outmoded as total serialism.

Ferneyhough's an old man. Roll over Ferneyhough.


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> Yes, this is something I can see. Busy music like that seems to be really out of style. I listened to some Richard Barrett recently, something he released a few months ago, and it's full of notes and I thought to myself, this sounds like it was written in the 20th century or something! As outmoded as total serialism.
> 
> Ferneyhough's an old man. Roll over Ferneyhough.


I don't want to sound too general about this because every piece is different. And as was mentioned by you or another member, complexity, or even simplicity should be irrelevant as long as the end result resonates with the listener. Carter wrote busy, complicated music but there are a number of pieces I enjoy and others I've failed to appreciate. As far as Ferneyhough is concerned I haven't listened to very many pieces so I may in fact connect with some of his music if I keep trying different works.


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## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> I don't want to sound too general about this because every piece is different. And as was mentioned by you or another member, complexity, or even simplicity should be irrelevant as long as the end result resonates with the listener. Carter wrote busy, complicated music but there are a number of pieces I enjoy and others I've failed to appreciate. As far as Ferneyhough is concerned I haven't listened to very many pieces so I may in fact connect with some of his music if I keep trying different works.


Like Carter Ferneyhough's music is often contrapuntal. I must say, I much prefer Ferneyhough to Carter!

For me, one serious limitation in Ferneyhough is the total absence of engagement with the world. This is a marked contrast to, for example, Finnissy or Stockhausen or Cage. It's as if for Ferneyhough music is an abstract thing, just organised sound.

That being said, I've never managed to make head or tale of all that Deleuzian stuff he writes, and I've never made any sense of the opera either.


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## Bwv 1080

For some reason Ferneyhough was always more accessible than Carter, which was an acquired taste for me. First time I heard Ferneyhough (La Chute) I was hooked.

Heard New Complexity described somewhere as 'late high modernism' , which seems as good a description as any


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## Mandryka

We should do one of those duel poll threads which used to be popular here - Mozart v. Haydn, Beethoven v Led Zeppelin, Ferneyhough v Carter!


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## starthrower

Bwv 1080 said:


> First time I heard Ferneyhough (La Chute) I was hooked.


You've pointed me in the right direction! I just gave this a listen and it sounds great to my ears. Perhaps I should steer clear of the string pieces for now and listen to more stuff like this? I love winds and percussion. I find this piece a lot more fun to listen to than the hyper busy string writing.


----------



## Malx

starthrower said:


> You've pointed me in the right direction! I just gave this a listen and it sounds great to my ears. Perhaps I should steer clear of the string pieces for now and listen to more stuff like this? I love winds and percussion. I find this piece a lot more fun to listen to than the hyper busy string writing.


I too have just listened to La Chute and find it much more agreeable, the combination of winds and percussion for me makes the piece sound less dense and the structure becomes easier for me to hear. This is not a flippant point but the shorter length also helps me as a newby in Fernyhough's world.
To bring it back to the thread - I am glad to have the opportunity to have tried the quartet but can't get anything from it but as a result of the discussions I have now found a work I can enjoy.


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## Portamento

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> For me, you just cannot enjoy this music being wholly serious, at one point the levee breaks, _and when the levee breaks I'll have no place to stay_ (god I haven't listened to Zeppelin in 10 years and I still remember the lyrics).


Exactly. The premise is so deliberately absurd that I cannot imagine taking it _too_ seriously.



Bwv 1080 said:


> Heard New Complexity described somewhere as 'late high modernism' , which seems as good a description as any


I've even seen it described as postmodernism, which actually makes sense when you realize that Ferneyhough's aesthetic of 'fidelity, not accuracy' is at odds with many figures of high modernism. Music historians are increasingly referring to the period since ca. 1980 as "second/reflexive modernism." Postmodernism, which is already somewhat out of style, would fall under that.



starthrower said:


> It's just too many notes for my taste. Too much nervous and hyperactivity. I'm more drawn to stuff like Saariaho, Ligeti, and the French spectral composers. When I listen to Ferneyhough it sounds like a guy who needs to get out for some fresh air more often.


I'm also a "less is more" type of guy. But I'm not bothered by this quartet in particular because I feel like the hyperactive moments are nicely balanced with some (relatively) tranquil parts.


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## starthrower

Portamento said:


> I'm also a "less is more" type of guy. But I'm not bothered by this quartet in particular because I feel like the hyperactive moments are nicely balanced with some (relatively) tranquil parts.


Agreed! That's what I was hearing as I listened to the 6th quartet. If the right balance is achieved I can keep listening for longer periods.


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## Mandryka

Scarecrow's review of the box of quartets for amazon has some typically interesting comments -- this seems to me spot on



> . . . The schema here [in the 5th quartet] is how the "fragment" can come to inhabit larger spaces,what the "fragment" implies for development---- as the "Exordium", a satellite work also herein----,that moves from moment to moment in a "jouissance" of the moment- without cause for what may happen downstream. . . .
> As we approach the precipice of the expanded Sixth String Quartet, well now we have expressive personas,larger shapes that re-claim lost territory, as the Cello that opens the Sixth,its ascending" arrogance" and well into it, not till Bar 32, does his unrelenting voice stop,joining others "Other" argument end with his brethren also filing a claim. .


These quartets are fragmentary -- like musics by Kurtag and Nono and Kagel and Holliger and Lachenmann. Fragments, moments musicaux, everywhere.

Someone was asking me what I saw in the cello part and I refused to answer. Scarecrow has an answer, though what he hears as arrogance I don't.


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## Mandryka

Re humour, I remember someone saying to me that they thought that the string trio is comic. I don't hear it myself . . .


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I don't think humour is necessarily related to comedy, it is not one dimensional. But I remember listening to a BBC radio interview with Ligeti, and at one point he says that he wishes that the audience would laugh more during performances of his music. At that point they were talking about the Aventures, and while those could indeed be _funny_ pieces, laughter for me is not exclusively related to humour, many times when listening to a gripping and fantastic work I laugh, just at the sheer awesomeness that genius can be.


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## starthrower

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> laughter for me is not exclusively related to humour, many times when listening to a gripping and fantastic work I laugh, just at the sheer awesomeness that genius can be.


I've found myself grinning from ear to ear listening to Penderecki's Threnody for the same reason. I don't think about the title. It was attached to the piece after it was composed and it was a brilliant move. The music alone suffices but associated with that title makes it more provocative for potential listeners, and music writers, as opposed to calling it string orchestra piece no.2 or something.


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## Carmina Banana

I listened once and didn’t get too much out of it. 
Then I watched the video, Climbing a Mountain and began to get a new appreciation for it. 
I know we have had this discussion before: music should be immediately apparent and should not require explanation, etc. but I do think that when you see the rehearsal process and hear the composer relate to the performers, it sort of allows you in to appreciate the music in a different way. 
First of all, Ferneyhough, comes off as an extremely intelligent person with fascinating ideas about music (I envy whoever it was that said they worked with him). The music is very dense and demands a lot from the listener as it does from the performer. I think that many of us are used to music happening in certain larger expanses of time and this piece forces us to examine each moment. In a way, the performers are the ones who get the most from the music. Through the enormous work required to play the notes and try to line up the ensemble, they must get to know this music intimately. They are probably aware of all of the minute relationships between their notes (even though they don’t a score in front of them). 
One virtue of this music I suppose is that we don’t take things for granted. Instead of a more or less constant tempo with familiar quarters and eighths, you have four people playing notes that are so rhythmically nuanced that they rarely ever happed the same time. If you don’t let it wash over you, but try to be hyper-conscious of everything, it can be very rewarding.
At least, that is what I am thinking right now.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Carmina Banana said:


> If you don't let it wash over you, but try to be hyper-conscious of everything, it can be very rewarding.
> At least, that is what I am thinking right now.


This is a great insight, and one that I have realized as well. There is certainly quite a bit of music where the "let it wash over you" approach is peachy, but with a lot of contemporary music I find that I really need to focus in on each individual gesture in order to get enjoyment from it. Previously I had been trying to make sense of the whole and it just wasn't working; I just kept hearing a wall of dissonances. But I still fondly remember the two pieces that made this kind of music click for me - Boulez's _Sur incises_ and Takemitsu's _From me flows what you call time_. I focused in really intently, and was able to hear each moment as a dollop of color or a shape on a canvas. It's quite similar to how I listen to Bach. Now, Ferneyhough's aesthetic is very different, but I do enjoy the process of listening to each little action and anticipating what will come next. I don't think it really forms a coherent whole, but it provides moment-by-moment interest as layers of time are stacked and shattered into a series of micro-parcels. Now, whenever I hear a piece that I don't like on first hearing, I try to change my "ear approach" with each successive listen until I've found the one that works for me - the "hyper-conscious" approach, the "let it wash over you" approach, or some combination of these. If it still doesn't work for me, I conclude that the music just isn't for me. Thankfully, this quartet worked for me the first time; and I was able to appreciate its construction even if it's not something that I would necessarily want to revisit as a regular part of my listening diet.


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## starthrower

I'm curious to know what equipment people use for string quartet listening? Due to the nuances and conversational aspect of many quartets I get the most out of a piece using headphones so all of the voices sound like they're playing in my head. I'll usually listen late at night after everyone's gone to bed and there are no distractions.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Most of the time I use decent (but not superb) Soundcore earbuds, as I’m doing other things. The fidelity is surprisingly good but high registers (violins, sopranos, piccolos) are shrill and piercing. For my deep listening (like with the Ferneyhough), I use my Sennheiser headphones, which I think would stack up pretty well even to picky audiophiles - they were obtained via an Amazon deal for around $100 less than they would usually be.


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## starthrower

Did you buy those 599's they had for half price about year and a half ago? I bought a pair. I didn't like them at first but now that they're broken in they sound pretty good.


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## Allegro Con Brio

starthrower said:


> Did you buy those 599's they had for half price about year and a half ago? I bought a pair. I didn't like them at first but now that they're broken in they sound pretty good.


Yup! (To be more accurate, I received them as a Christmas gift). Funny enough, I recall thinking they were not too impressive when I first got them as well, but now I treasure them dearly.


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## Bwv 1080

Prices have dropped over 50%on my Sennheizer 550s

https://camelcamelcamel.com/product/B07ZPQQCVX?context=search


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## StevehamNY

starthrower said:


> I'm curious to know what equipment people use for string quartet listening? Due to the nuances and conversational aspect of many quartets I get the most out of a piece using headphones so all of the voices sound like they're playing in my head. I'll usually listen late at night after everyone's gone to bed and there are no distractions.


A thousand percent yes, late at night, when the rest of the world is asleep...



starthrower said:


> Did you buy those 599's they had for half price about year and a half ago? I bought a pair. I didn't like them at first but now that they're broken in they sound pretty good.


Another endorsement on the Sennheiser 599s for the late-night listening. (Because they're open back, they're not ideal for the daytime, or at least when other people or other noises are around you.) I've heard them described as an "audiophile gateway drug" and I can see (hear) why. I would probably try a 600 if I moved up, but right now I don't see the need.

I also have a Dragonfly Red connected to my laptop, and a FiiO BTR5 for my phone. That's as far down the audiophile rabbit hole as I've gone, but we'll see how long that lasts!


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## Merl

I usually use my AKG headphones or play SQs through one of my two stereos (NAD / Acoustic Energy upstairs, Marantz / Gale downstairs) but if Mrs Merl is in, and I'm downstairs, I'll use a set of Betron earbuds. I also like to get a full taste of each work by playing them in the car (loudly) - I do a lot of travelling and listening in the car, tbh. I've currently got about 15 versions of one particular quartet (that hasn't been picked yet) on the USB in the car. What I'll usually do is get a good flavour of SQs for this thread in the car but do detailed listening via headphones. You've just reminded me, I've got 2 other quartet round-ups to post today (before they've even been picked, lol).


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I have Sony wh-1000xm4 wireless headphones that my wife gave me last Christmas, that I use in the living room upstairs, and JBL LSR305/LSR310S (active studio monitors/subwoofer) in my studio downstairs. I don't have headphones on for more than a symphony at one sitting. My studio speakers are probably the cheapest JBL you can get and they have some noise.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

...that noise is my tinnitus right now...


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> ...that noise is my tinnitus right now...


Oh how I hate tinnitus. Mine is relatively ok, but I can't listen to music on headphones for more than a couple of hours, and that's with noise cancelling. I don't go nowhere near not-noise-cancelling headphones, let alone earbuds, only over-ear


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's honors will go to *Portamento...*

Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## StevehamNY

I haven't said anything about the Ferneyhough quartet yet, but I will say that it's growing on me with each listen. I'm no stranger to "adventurous" music (or as my wife would say, "What in God's name is that, please turn that off before I get a migraine"), but I often find myself looking for some piece of solid ground, no matter how small, to stand on when I'm listening to it. I don't have the musical vocabulary to describe what I mean, but I can give you an example: I've been in love with Bargielski's quartets lately, and if you listen to his first, there's this underlying, almost sing-song, almost droning kind of through-line that constantly runs under everything else that's happening. Often just the cello, sometimes more than one instrument, but it's always there. On top of that line, the first violin in particular just cuts loose, just absolutely shreds. It would give my wife just as big of a headache, and yet for me that one difference between the Ferneyhough and the Bargielski is a game-changer. 

SO FAR. Because this is *NOT* to say that this through-line is absent from the Ferneyhough. I would never say that, ever. All I would say is that, at this time in my life I'm having a hard time accessing it. There was a time when I wouldn't have heard it in the Bargielski, either, but now I do and it's opened up the whole piece for me. I'd like to think that I'll find it in the Ferneyhough if I keep listening. Like I said, I'm liking it more and more, so maybe I'm close. 

Does this make any sense at all?


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## Merl

I eagerly await your review of the cover art, Steve.


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## Portamento

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's honors will go to *Portamento...*


Give me a few hours!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Portamento said:


> Give me a few hours!


No worries, Sunday is the day when we switch over


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I eagerly await your review of the cover art, Steve.


Another week without many covers to consider, but I think Mandryka had it right when he zeroed in on the "raft of security in a turbulent ocean viz the image on the cover here." Overall, I think this image fits the music very well.









Meanwhile, I continue to hate these blah blah covers that are way too cool for school to bother with appeal or invitation or memorability:









(But maybe that's just me!)


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## Bwv 1080

Like to thank everyone for a great discussion this week, particularly those who weren’t familiar with the music and gave it an open minded listen.


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## Portamento

This week's quartet is *Scott Wollschleger - String Quartet #2 "White Wall" (2013/14)*






The reasoning behind my pick is pretty simple. I figured that most won't be familiar with Wollschleger - a youngish guy - and I've been really impressed by the few pieces that I've heard. His works are typically (from what I can tell) sparse and kaleidoscopic, running the gamut of extended techniques and cool timbral effects while maintaining this "time-standing-still" quality that I find highly appealing. Feldman is an obvious and acknowledged influence, and so are some aspects of minimalism (perhaps even Lachenmann), but I don't want to overstate any similarities; the music feels very current.

_White Wall_ quickly lives up to its title, beginning with, well, a wall of wispy string harmonics and odd scratchy sounds - essentially instrumental white noise. From there, this white wall is increasingly punctured in seemingly random (yet extremely calculated) ways by fragments of the melodic gesture heard during the first few seconds. It's hard for me to discern a clear structure to it all, but that doesn't matter because every sonic event seems so well-placed; there's also a contrast of "spacey parts" to sections of more rhythmic regularity which keeps things interesting. Then we have the second movement, which is sort of a dance... or at least it starts that way before slowly disintegrating back into white noise. Explain yourself, Mr. Wollschleger:

_I think there's a kind of emptied quality to the string quartet, and those pieces I wrote at that time. I think the white noise signified that sort of complete emptiness that's at the very end of something. But to have that be the actual starting spot was the idea. [White Wall] definitely represented a break in my own work, or in myself, or in my approach to art, where I wanted to see how you could start from nothing, and pull from within itself something.... If you were to drain music from itself, what would be left over?

Again, this notion of unfolding from within itself was the goal - utopian chimera, Adorno's [keep it civil!] dream. But I think ending it with a dance was my way of saying this isn't going to happen.... That's why I think I had to add that second movement.

I always think of the white noise as the bleached out remains of a human. Which I think is kind of beautiful idea: when nothing is left, that's all that's left, that white noise.... And after history, and after Brahms, and after all our feelings, what would there be? The white noise points to that language which might be left for us.​_Dreary.

I know that Wollschleger is very involved with the philosophy of Gilles Deleuze, so I thought it might be interesting to mention that "White Wall" may also refer to the "white walls, black holes" model of identification. I was going to get into that with this post, but then I decided to save myself from a massive headache and leave it for later.

Sorry Steve, but you'll have to suffer another week of less-than-fulfilling "cover coverage."  I suppose that's the consequence of picking a more recent work as there's only 1 recording by the Mivos Quartet:






​
Still, I hope everyone can get something out of this piece! I love it and am excited to see what you guys think (yes, even if it's a "I really didn't like this" post). Happy listening!


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## Merl

Just listened to this and it's an engaging piece. I particularly like from 12 minutes on, where the composer brings a more evident element of rhythm into proceedings. Yeah, this was much easier on my ears than Ferneyhough and I'll definitely give this more time this week (but perhaps without any animals or other humans in the room) . Thanks for an interesting pick, Portamento.

PS. Mrs Merl was less enthusiastic when she caught me listening to it ("OMG what is that godawful noise").
PPS. Do not try to listen on headphones with a 13 week old kitten sat next to you. My wires were chewed to death until I finally put it on through the speakers.








^ Zappa. The wire-chewing culprit.


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## Enthusiast

Carmina Banana said:


> If you don't let it wash over you, but try to be hyper-conscious of everything, it can be very rewarding.
> At least, that is what I am thinking right now.


I read this with interest as, with music that is very new to me, allowing it to wash over me is part of how I become familiar and engaged with it. But this tends to involve a substantial gap (weeks, months) between that listening and later remembering something about it and wanting to really engage with it. I had done that preliminary wash-over-me listening some time before this became our weekly quartet but my listening this time around was because of this thread rather than because I felt it calling me back. Perhaps it was premature.

Much of what we have discussed this week - aside from headphones and tinnitus - has been rather more technical than I can relate to. Even to the minimal extent that I can relate to the technical side of music I tend not to do so. It is the _experience _of listening that engages me. As someone said above, Ferneyhough is a very abstract - as opposed to emotional - composer so I can see how the message can be thought of as technical (I think someone even suggested that the musicians might get more from it than the audience). But what I can hear is an attractive and varied soundscape that involves some sort of animated discussion - often with agreement - between the instruments. And the music does seem to go somewhere: there is a "story". But I sense I will get more out of it over time. Right now I enjoy the experience, recognise moments that seem inspired (some very much so) and find the time passing easily. But I am not pulled in yet and I know there is more for me to discover, here.

The similarities and contrasts with Wollschleger are going to be intriguing.


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## StevehamNY

Portamento said:


> Sorry Steve, but you'll have to suffer another week of less-than-fulfilling "cover coverage."  I suppose that's the consequence of picking a more recent work as there's only 1 recording by the Mivos Quartet:
> 
> View attachment 157611​


All good! I'm very much looking forward to giving this piece a try. Always love it when I check on Sunday and see something I've never even heard of before...


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Just listened to this and it's an engaging piece. I particularly like from 12 minutes on, where the composer brings a more evident element of rhythm into proceedings. Yeah, this was much easier on my ears than Ferneyhough and I'll definitely give this more time this week (but perhaps without any animals or other humans in the room) . Thanks for an interesting pick, Portamento.
> 
> PS. Mrs Merl was less enthusiastic when she caught me listening to it ("OMG what is that godawful noise").
> PPS. Do not try to listen on headphones with a 13 week old kitten sat next to you. My wires were chewed to death until I finally put it on through the speakers.
> 
> View attachment 157612
> 
> ^ Zappa. The wire-chewing culprit.


Cool cat. GREAT name.


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## starthrower

> I always think of the white noise as the bleached out remains of a human. Which I think is kind of beautiful idea: when nothing is left, that's all that's left, that white noise.... And after history, and after Brahms, and after all our feelings, what would there be? The white noise points to that language which might be left for us.


This is perfect for the way my day is going! My house was burglarized in the middle of the night while the wife and I were fast asleep. A slip through the kitchen window job to swipe my wallet and key fob and drive off with my car. I do feel like a bleached out human right now. In a way I'm glad it's Sunday. The day started at 4:30am and I'm too tired to do all the recovery legwork in one day. Anybody got an extra beer?


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## Merl

Jeez, ST, that's crap. I'm having an extra gin and tonic to say sorry for your losses. Being burgled does strange things to your head. I got scammed a while back and it still hurts.


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## starthrower

I hope you made that a strong one, Merl! On the positive side the cops found my car two miles away driven into a tree stump on a dead end lot. They didn't steal any of my CDs. Who wants those things anymore? Hurts to lose the wallet, though. A major pain to get all that replaced. Okay, I don't want to derail things here so back to Wollschleger.


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## StevehamNY

ST, so sorry to hear about this, but thank God you and your wife are safe! New York State has an Office for Victim Services (I'm sure there's an office in your area) that can definitely help with the recovery work. I've seen their work (secondhand, at least) and know they have some really good people there. 

Beyond that, just know that we're all thinking of you today, and wishing you the absolute best.


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## Malx

Not a lot can be said ST other than my thoughts are with you and your wife - stay positive.


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## HenryPenfold

So sorry ST. Glad you and your wife are otherwise unharmed. Stiff upper lip, and have the odd beer here and there ...........


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## starthrower

Thanks, guys! It's a matter of juvenile delinquents with parents in absentia. Maybe I need an alarm system that blasts atonal quartets at 120 decibels when someone trespasses here?


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> ..
> 
> Maybe I need an alarm system that blasts atonal quartets at 120 decibels when someone trespasses here?


Try Shura Gehrman's, Schubert Lieder. That cleared a house party many years back. I reckon it would still definitely do the job.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Try Shura Gehrman's, Schubert Lieder. That cleared a house party many years back. I reckon it would still definitely do the job.


Brotzmann. Machine Gun. (Full volume.)


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## starthrower

That Wollschleger piece is a very interesting exercise in listening to sparse fragments of sound and space beautifully placed. When it was over I sat silently for a minute listening to the quiet as if it was still part of the composition. And maybe that's the desired effect? Be still and listen.


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## Portamento

All I can do is echo everyone's condolences. That is horrible.



StevehamNY said:


> Brotzmann. Machine Gun. (Full volume.)


This would certainly drive people away - not me, though! Early Brötzmann is something else.



starthrower said:


> That Wollschleger piece is a very interesting exercise in listening to sparse fragments of sound and space beautifully placed. When it was over I sat silently for a minute listening to the quiet as if it was still part of the composition. And maybe that's the desired effect? Be still and listen.


I think you're on to something. Keeping the composer's words in mind, it's hard not to see that as a desired effect.


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## Enthusiast

Sorry to hear of your hassle and wrecked car, ST, and especially the creepiness of having people invade your home.


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## Merl

Listening again, this morning (this time without animal/human distractions) again I was disappointed with the scarcity of material in the first 11-12 minutes. I know that's the point but the huge (near) silences frustrate me. After then I am fine with how the rhythm comes in and then disintegrates slowly. I'm going to listen again this week. I've said before that it's this sparseness of material with some modern pieces that really alienates them for me. I need more to hang my hat on...a pulse, a rhythm, a repeated motif or god forbid a tune. I don't need much. I'm an admirer of plenty of obscure or avant-garde music but the stuff I like has much more going on.


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## Enthusiast

^ And last week some were complaining that there was too much going on in the Ferneyhough, too many notes.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> ^ And last week some were complaining that there was too much going on in the Ferneyhough, too many notes.











. .. . ... . ..


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## starthrower

Enthusiast said:


> ^ And last week some were complaining that there was too much going on in the Ferneyhough, too many notes.


Hey! That was me. But it wasn't a complaint, just an opinion that was actually directed towards another one of his pieces, not the 6th quartet. Portamento has given us the antidote in Wollschlager. At least for some of us. Sorry, Merl!  Okay, back to my phone calls...


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I'm not particularly fond of minimalism, but I kind of liked the first movement. What really drew me in were the overtones generated by the constant glissandi and oscillations, and the occasional restricted but effective gestures of some string playing a little melody over the _wall_ were also a nice addition, giving the piece more things to latch on to, and filling up the white space. There's also a certain climax which gives the piece a sort of direction, instead of just wandering around. An interesting movement.

The 2nd movement begins with a compelling rhythmic figure, and I like the almost drum like quality of the cello in that first minute. And if my ears don't fail me, there's a nice underlying motif, played in different ways, which adds to the constant exploration of different timbres and textures.

All in all, I enjoyed this quartet very much. Thank you, Portamento for a left field selection and for introducing me to a new composer.

ST sorry to hear about your home invasion and your car, I hope you can get some sense of safety and security back.


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## Bwv 1080

Cool piece, hear influences of both Feldman and spectralism (looks like his comp teacher, Nils Vigeland, was a student of Feldman)


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## starthrower

I listened to some of his other stuff on Bandcamp. I definitely get the Feldman vibe. And I like the album photography and aesthetics. It has the look and feel of a hip independent jazz label rather that classical music.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Starthrower, I can only add my voice to the choir and say I'm so sorry for what happened to you. I sincerely hope that you will be able to recover quickly and get everything back in order.

It's strange to think that the last two week's pieces have both come from the last decade, yet they are so diametrically different. Contemporary music shares several characteristics, but it is most _certainly_ not characterized by one uniform style like some often claim. I found this piece by Wollschleger to be like a jigsaw puzzle in sound, as opposed to the machine gun of ideas that was the Ferneyhough. Immediately in the first couple minutes I had strong sensation of being on the beach. The white-noise sounds were like the crashing of the waves and whistling of the wind; the occasional full tones like the squawks of seagulls. However, this quickly morphs into an interminable soundscape of swirling abstraction; frankly, I found the tones displeasing to the ear and tough to visualize as music. However, I agree with Merl that around 12 minutes in the piece picks up, with some interesting rhythmic complexity (both real and implied) and a wider array of tones beside the same triad that is basically just sounded alone for the first several minutes. Just like the Ferneyhough, I found it to be an enriching and rewarding experience that is not necessarily one I would want to repeat. It's a mental exercise of interpretation, as if the traditional job of the performers to interpret the meaning of the music has been left to the listener. The piece is clearly about the boundary between noise and music, organized and unorganized sound, the purely natural and the aesthetic. I may not be in full agreement about the necessity of breaking these boundaries, but I appreciate any work of art that challenges preconceptions, and this sure does that. A wonderfully bold and creative choice, Portamento.


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## Malx

I've given 'White Wall' a few listens now and fear I can add little to what has gone before.

The first section didn't do a lot for me with the very early parts reminding me of the sound of ice-skates on a rink, followed by fingernails being dragged over chalkboard (that may be a little harsh). As others have suggested there is more rhythmic elements evident in the second section. I feel as with so many modern pieces I may have been more receptive if the work was of shorter duration - am I reaching that conclusion because the material is spread too thin or am I just hoping the end will come more quickly - that I'm not sure about.

As is always the case I welcomed the chance to give this a listen and to be made aware of the different directions new composers are moving but I have to say I can't see myself rushing back to listen again after this week.


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Starthrower, I can only add my voice to the choir and say I'm so sorry for what happened to you. I sincerely hope that you will be able to recover quickly and get everything back in order.


Thanks, ACB! Forgive me for going off topic again but I just wanted to share this:

Things are turning around for the better. By a miracle my wallet was found in a neighbor's yard two days later with everything intact minus some petty cash. Apparently there were 4-5 people involved and some took off on foot. The police have arrested one person and have some of the others on video. They ditched my car in someone's yard that had surveillance cameras. My insurance co. set me up with a rental and my car is headed to the shop for repairs so we're getting back on our feet.

This incident was a big wake up call for me. I'm now paying much closer attention to home safety and security issues which I took for granted for 35 years never having been a victim in the past. I got my locks changed, and I'm having motion sensor lights installed tomorrow. I will never go to sleep again with my windows open as much as I love fresh air. My car was found full of stolen merchandise including a bag of sports clothing purchased in Zagreb, Croatia, and a 30 gallon size bag of sneakers, so these delinquents were ripping off a lot of people. They probably have a garage full of stuff they are fencing.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> I've given 'White Wall' a few listens now and fear I can add little to what has gone before.
> 
> The first section didn't do a lot for me with the very early parts reminding me of the sound of ice-skates on a rink, followed by fingernails being dragged over chalkboard (that may be a little harsh). As others have suggested there is more rhythmic elements evident in the second section. I feel as with so many modern pieces I may have been more receptive if the work was of shorter duration - am I reaching that conclusion because the material is spread too thin or am I just hoping the end will come more quickly - that I'm not sure about.
> 
> As is always the case I welcomed the chance to give this a listen and to be made aware of the different directions new composers are moving but I have to say I can't see myself rushing back to listen again after this week.


This is much how I feel. I needed much more in the first section to hook me in. Still, its more exposure to pieces i find difficult and its helping me appreciate the complexity of SQ writing and performance. Thanks, Portamento, for choosing this one.


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## Mandryka

Re this quartet, it has a pulse! That's new, the way it creates a _tactus _you can tap your feet to is interesting. Sciarrino's very late quartet do this, in a different way.


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## Portamento

Thanks, everyone, for giving this one a fair shake even if it's not something you'd normally listen to! The first movement, with its meticulously placed sounds and vast emptiness, definitely had enough to draw me in. It helps that I have a high tolerance for squeaks and squawks that most other people would find annoying - I think it's because of all the free jazz madness I've listened to. The string quartet as a medium is so damn versatile!

I came across the following quote in a dissertation about Gilles Deleuze (which, strangely enough, is dedicated to Wollschleger):

_To further illustrate the continuous variability of affection, Deleuze employs a medieval illustration: the white wall. Although the wall is white, it is still made-up of continuous variations of its whiteness, however subtle they may be. We cannot make out figures on the wall unless we trace shapes on it. Nonetheless, we can still say that the wall is made-up of individuals, even without resorting to extrinsic relations between extending shapes. Because the wall is made-up entirely of variations, there are individual degrees of change. These degrees then would be intensities. So, the whiteness of the wall in general is a quality. When we determine shapes on the wall, we have magnitudes of extensive length. But, what makes up these extensive qualities is something more intrinsic: the degrees of variation, that is, the quantitative intensities._ (Cory Shores, _Difference and Phenomena_)

I cannot parse any of the philosophical shoptalk, but the imagery is cool and certainly fits the piece.


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## starthrower

> The string quartet as a medium is so damn versatile!


That it is! And I applaud the modern music ensembles who work with contemporary composers to bring these unorthodox musical ideas and scores to life. There are some Zoom conversations with Wollschleger on YT and I'm interested to hear about his compositional process and inspiration for ideas to create these works.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Sbmonty* - the nomination falls to you next week!

Current schedule:
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## sbmonty

I'm on it! 
I have enjoyed listening to the last couple of selections. I love being challenged and they were both challenging, but in very different ways. The erudite and enthusiastic contributors make the week's selection just so much fun to read. I thank you all.


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## sbmonty

So I'm going to post now as I work tonight and tomorrow. I've considered a few this week. Verdi's quartet. Dohnányi's 2nd or 3rd. Both are really nice works. I listened to Nielsen's No. 2 in F minor, and really liked it. The second movement is amazing. Saint-Saëns No. 1 was another consideration. But ultimately I decided on *Beethoven String Quartet No. 13 in B Flat, Op. 130*.

I've always enjoyed this late quartet and am intrigued to read your comments. I'm hoping we can also include the Grosse Fugue in the discussion, but if group consensus feels that is a separate work, then that's fine too. I hope you enjoy this week's nomination.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Now this is the big boy - the one we’ve all been waiting for. Despite the completely justified claims of Schubert, Haydn, Mozart, Debussy, Ravel, and several competitors from Beethoven’s own ouevre to the greatest string quartet of all time, this is it IMHO, just barely edging out Ravel's. It has been my favorite LvB quartet pretty much since I first heard it. I still fondly remember my expressions of awe and entrancement hearing the Grosse Fuge for the first time - and yes, I believe that it is an essential part of this quartet and the only “real” finale, but it will be interesting to hear peoples’ opinions on which finale works best. I’ve heard it described as more of a serenade because it has so many disconnected movements, but it has so much downright magnificent music that I find it impossible to criticize. And let’s not forget the Cavatina moved the man himself to tears.


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## Merl

Jeezo. I was hoping for another easy week. Looks like I'm digging my old notes out again but as it was the last quartet I reviewed back then it has the most concise and up to date notes. It will be nice to take in some of the period performances and one-offs that didn't feature in my original round-up (I have a soft spot for the Edding Quartet's period account). At least you didn't take mine for next week, Sbmonty. Strangely enough I've considered all your mentioned alternatives too, sbmonty. Great minds. Btw, my reviews will be on the revised quartet with alternative allegro ending but I'll highlight those that use the original Grosse Fugue in my notes. Personally, I prefer the Allegro ending as I feel the that the inclusion of the Grosse Fugue takes something from the cavatina, that perhaps it's too much of a jolt. I do like hearing the Grosse Fugue on its own as its a piece that is unlike anything else he wrote in the quartet medium. It does change how you hear the piece but I think it adds to the middle movements having a lighter finale (let's face it you coukd never call the Grosse Fugue light).


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## starthrower

This is a huge work. And after 40 years as a classical music listener I should be more familiar with this piece but I'm not. I started listening too late last night so I'll have begin again. I'll be a lurker this week reading the comments and recording suggestions. I do have a set by the Tokyo Quartet on RCA which has beautiful sound.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Beethoven no. 13 is one I didn't listen so much to. I made a playlist with Tetzlaff, Vertavo and Ehnes for starters and tried to steer away from Grosse Fuge, but the Tetzlaff got it there, since it's one of the few things I can't stand 
Last weeks quartet I listened to once and believe I would like it more in a live concert. It was kind of boring 
...wait! I've heard this enough to know pretty well. There are some absolute melodies of forever here, that I could find myself whistling in the supermarket...


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## Kreisler jr

I'd have preferred some of the other choices, then I could have listened to my 1-3 recordings. I am not going to listen to all my op.130 and I will usually exclude the fugue, I think. I started already in the morning with the LaSalle Quartet (DG 1973-77) a fairly relaxed and "analytical" recording with some interesting choices for the different tempi in the first movement but overall maybe a bit "cool". Certainly not very manic or spooky in the 2nd movement.


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## sbmonty

I like both versions and tend to listen to them both depending on how the were placed on a particular recording, but I agree that the Grosse Fugue does overweight the work for me. I own the Takacs, Busch, Alban Berg, Talich, Italiano and Amadeus sets.


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## starthrower

I found this fairly extensive article on the quartet by Michael Steinberg taken from the Beethoven Quartet Companion. Includes numerous Kandinsky prints for your viewing pleasure.
https://www.maramarietta.com/the-arts/music/classical/beethoven/


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Also Peter Gutmann on the Grosse Fuge: http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/grossefuge.html

...and Trout's recommendations for the fugue alone. And yes, even Emerson skeptics like myself must admit that their thrilling virtuosity here hits the spot.

1. Emerson String Quartet (1994)
2. Takács Quartet (2004)
3. Alban Berg Quartet (1989)
4. Quartetto Italiano (1969)
5. Artemis Quartet (2009)
6. Hagen Quartet (2001)
7. Tokyo String Quartet (2008)
8. Guarneri Quartet (1987)
9. Juilliard String Quartet (1996)
10. Yale Quartet (1971)
Bonus: Furtwängler (cond.), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (1954, Salzburg)


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## Kreisler jr

I like the Fugue and am not really deciced which one works better but it is just quicker and less strenuous (op.133 is a strenuous piece...) to skip the fugue, if one wants to listen to a lot of recordings 

I have a fraction of what is out there but still a lot, I'll probably not feel like listening to two per day (although it is manageable in principle)

Busch/EMI/Warner \op.133
Budapest/Biddulph 1930s \op.133
Hungarian/EMI 1960s
Smetana 1960s
Juilliard/Sony 1970s
Juilliard/Sony 1990s \alternate Finale
Vegh/Naive 1970s
Yale/Vanguard
LaSalle/DG
Melos/DG 1980s
Orford/Delos
Emerson/DG
Petersen/Capriccio
Musikverein/Platz
Hagen/DG \alternate Finale


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## SearsPoncho

I haven't been here for a while, so first things first...Starthrower! Are you ok? The family? That's terrible news and I sincerely hope you and your family are well. I hope you guys are alright and all that was taken were tangible items that can be replaced. I also hope that these were adults, not juveniles, because then you might be able to get some restitution. Don't count on it, but it is a possibility.

So, Beethoven's Op. 130! My experience with Beethoven's late string quartets has been profound. Yes, I'm one of those saps that will readily admit that listening to Beethoven's late string quartets is a transcendent event, and one I can experience any time I reach for Op.127-135. However, of the magic 5, Op.130 is the one I play least. I enjoy it and recognize its greatness, but it doesn't pull me in like the others, particularly Op.131 and Op.132, which occupy the summit, and are two of my top 5 pieces of music in any genre. I like quirky and unpredictable, which is why these late quartets, and even the Razumovskys, hold such a special place in my heart. Nevertheless, I've never been completely drawn into the episodic, almost intermezzo-like nature of some of Op.130. I always listen to the Grosse Fugue as a finale. It was Beethoven's original intention. 

These are the recordings I have, or at least can remember at this time: Takacs Quartet (great!), Alban Berg Qt. (studio), Julliard String Qt. (Live at the Library of Congress) and Quartetto Italiano. The recording I reach for most frequently is the Takacs Quartet. I think the Takacs rock the hell out of the Grosse Fugue and I love that approach. I suspect Merl has a very busy week on his hands. :lol:

EDIT: I also have the great Busch Quartet set but I believe the Grosse Fugue is not included.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> ....I suspect Merl has a very busy week on his hands. :lol:


Tbh, SP, I've got a lot of notes already on the set performances so it's just a case of a quick relisten to check previous judgement and pick up the individual spares, I reckon I'll have it written by midweek. I have a 40 shortlist in front of me right now and 10 newbies to hear.


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## Kreisler jr

SearsPoncho said:


> However, of the magic 5, Op.130 is the one I play least. I enjoy it and recognize its greatness, but it doesn't pull me in like the others, particularly Op.131 and Op.132, which occupy the summit, and are two of my top 5 pieces of music in any genre. I like quirky and unpredictable, which is why these late quartets, and even the Razumovskys, hold such a special place in my heart. Nevertheless, I've never been completely drawn into the episodic, almost intermezzo-like nature of some of Op.130.


I think I liked it more when I got to know the music 30 years ago as a teenager; sure, I was puzzled by the Fugue for a while but I loved the quirkiness of the rest and the relatively short inner movements made it in some respects easier to get to know. 
I also think that it is brilliant to have such a different "Mega-serenade" piece among the more conventional opp.127 and 132 and the even less conventional op.131. But I also don't love it as much as op.131 and 132. There is something overambitious about it (not only, but of course wrt the Fugue that one also finds in the Razumovsky's and some of op.18 while I find the other late quartets more "natural", admittedly very vague and subjective descriptions.



> EDIT: I also have the great Busch Quartet set but I believe the Grosse Fugue is not included.


No, or maybe there is an orchestral version included. I think they played the Fugue as finale in concert, but for some reason not on their recording.


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## Malx

I've got a fairly busy week ahead, by my standards, so I may not get through all the recordings I have nevermind others that get flagged up on the thread - but I will do my best. For some reason I rarely play the Op 130, I guess because I tend like other posters to prefer some of the other late quartets, so hopefully time will permit me the opportunity to give it a better chance. 

Coincidently when looking at the forum and alighting on this thread I have, a new (to me), recording of my favourite, for now, Beethoven Quartet - Op131 played by the Talich Quartet on the player. I love the Andante of this quartet.


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## SearsPoncho

Kreisler jr said:


> I think I liked it more when I got to know the music 30 years ago as a teenager; sure, I was puzzled by the Fugue for a while but I loved the quirkiness of the rest and the relatively short inner movements made it in some respects easier to get to know.
> I also think that it is brilliant to have such a different "Mega-serenade" piece among the more conventional opp.127 and 132 and the even less conventional op.131. But I also don't love it as much as op.131 and 132. There is something overambitious about it (not only, but of course wrt the Fugue that one also finds in the Razumovsky's and some of op.18 while I find the other late quartets more "natural", admittedly very vague and subjective descriptions.
> 
> No, or maybe there is an orchestral version included. I think they played the Fugue as finale in concert, but for some reason not on their recording.


You chose a better word than I: Serenade...but what a Serenade!

Yes, the Busch have a chamber orchestra version of the Grosse Fugue rather than a quartet.


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## HenryPenfold

Great choice! Being rather conservative in taste, I consider LvB, Bartok & DSCH to be head and shoulders above all in this genre, but I can never decide who is _primus inter pares. _Anyway, it doesn't matter.

I've become accustomed to listening to this piece with the second finale. I can't explain why I prefer it that way, perhaps something to do with the Gross Fugue having taken on a life of its own (coincidentally, I listened to the orchestral version this morning - Otto Klemperer, Philharmonia, EMI).

Checking the shelves, I have:

Hagen
Emerson
Tokyo
Italiano

I'm looking to calm my CD buying down a bit this year, so I hope the week's discussion doesn't put temptation my way!


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## Kreisler jr

I think I have once seen the idea that although Beethoven already wrote an early trio divertimento (op.3) following in the steps of Mozarts trio divertimento K 563 this late quartet was again a nod towards the tradition of the multi movement "serenade". That's one reason why I think the Rondo finale works in some respects better than the Fugue.
Another idea I had myself long before I encountered what I just referred to is that Beethoven here "splits" up the slow movement into the "song- and soulful" cavatina (#5 in Eb) and the ambigous andante with scherzando elements (#3 in Db) whereas in opp. 127, 132 and the variation movement (4) in op.131 we have sections or variations with scherzando character within a mostly very slow/sublime/lofty slow movement.


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> Great choice! Being rather conservative in taste, I consider LvB, Bartok & DSCH to be head and shoulders above all in this genre, but I can never decide who is _primus inter pares. _Anyway, it doesn't matter.
> 
> I've become accustomed to listening to this piece with the second finale. I can't explain why I prefer it that way, perhaps something to do with the Gross Fugue having taken on a life of its own (coincidentally, I listened to the orchestral version this morning - Otto Klemperer, Philharmonia, EMI).
> 
> Checking the shelves, I have:
> 
> Hagen
> Emerson
> Tokyo
> Italiano
> 
> I'm looking to calm my CD buying down a bit this year, so I hope the week's discussion doesn't put temptation my way!


Henry,

I have that Klemperer/Philharmonia recording with the Grosse Fugue. It's paired with an excellent "Eroica." Good stuff.

I'm interested in what Merl and others thinks of some of the new entries, such as the Quator Ebene's live cycle.

By the way, you guys are a really bad influence! I just ordered a pair of Sennheiser 599s based on the back and forth a few pages ago. Great reviews on other sites. Consume! Consume! Consume!:lol:


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## starthrower

If the 599s sound a bit cold and clinical at first, give them some time to break in. Mine sound warmer now that I've been using them for a while.



> I'm interested in what Merl and others thinks of some of the new entries, such as the Quator Ebene's live cycle.


I just unpacked my copy. They play the fugue. Gonna give them a listen now.


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## Josquin13

I too am sorry, Starthrower, to hear that your house was robbed. Thank goodness everyone's okay. Sounds like it was juveniles looking for drug money or a thrill ride. Ugh! (If you get a couple of pit bulls, like my brother did--two of the sweetest & most loving pups I've ever met, btw--believe me, it won't happen again. Especially if you walk them regularly in the neighborhood & the punks see them. In my experience, gang members know what pits can do to them, & no one wants to deal with those kinds of hospital bills. Trust me, you'll get respect. Although you might have to train the pits to guard your house, since they're big sweeties by nature, & particularly if you get them as pups. Yes, I know they have a bad reputation, but that's mostly due to some of their twisted owners, who can be a big problem, since the dogs are fiercely loyal.)

Thanks for the picks over the past two weeks. I had begun to write posts for each, but didn't get around to finishing them. So, time to move on. However, I did enjoy reading everyone's thoughts.

I agree with SearsPoncho. For me, Beethoven's Op. 132 is his greatest quartet. I remember that the conductor Eugen Jochum thought so, too. But of course I like each of the Late Quartets, & the Op. 130 is a great pick for the week!

Of interest, the Merel Quartet seems to be recording a new Beethoven cycle of late. I had hoped they would--since the Beethoven I'd heard from them in concert was first class: 



, and 



). Here's their recent Op. 130:






and their Grosse fuge separately: 




There is also a fantastic recording of the Grosse Fuge by the Merels on You Tube, back when violinist Julia Schroeder played in the group (as 2nd violinist), which I like even better:






The Gewandhaus Quartet is also very, very good at making sense of this crazy fugue--which let's face it, can sound like a mess:






Otherwise, my favorite recordings of Op. 130 are by the Smetana Quartet (on Denon & Supraphon), Alban Berg Quartet (studio & live), Quartetto Italiano, Talich Quartet, Suske Quartett, Fitzwilliam SQ, and the Takacs Quartet (and the already mentioned Gewandhaus Quartett), & historically, the Busch Quartet. Like Merl, I also admire the Op. 130 played by the Edding Quartet on period instruments, and--as with the fugal movement in the Hammerklavier Piano Sonata--I think it's essential to hear the Grosse fuge played on period instruments: since what Beethoven had in his mind does actually work with the instruments of his day, as opposed to it becoming a traffic jam, & it's pretty wild music when it does work:

Edding Quartet:
1. Adagio ma no troppo: 



2. Presto: 



3. Poco scherzoso: 



4. Alla danza tedesca: 



5. Cavatina: 



6. Grosse fuge: 




Now compare that to the other period recording by Quatour Mosaiques: 



, whose Grosse fuge I don't overly care for: 




Here are some links to my favorite modern instrument groups (but unfortunately, the Gewandhaus Quartett's NCA recording is no longer on You Tube), if anyone's interested:

--Alban Berg Quartet, studio (which I slightly prefer to their later live account): 



. & the Berg's Grosse fuge from their live set: 



.

--Smetana Quartet, the later Denon recording: 




--Smetana Quartet, their earlier Supraphon recording: 




--Suske Quartett: 




--Quartetto Italiano: 




--Takacs Quartet (remastered): 




--Talich Quartet: (unfortunately, the first movement is blocked in the U.S.): 




--Fitzwilliam String Quartet: 




--Busch Quartet: 




P.S. I agree that the LaSalle Quartet is too "analytical" and "cold" in this quartet, and in the rest of their Late Quartet set, too. Not a favorite of mine (though I find them better in the music of the 2nd Viennese School--especially Schoenberg).


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## StevehamNY

You could get whiplash in here, going back and forth between the outer-wilderness Modernist and the beloved Classical. But I love it!

I've got the LvB late quartets by:

Vegh
Mosaiques
Takacs
Italiano
Borodin
Emerson
Berg
Talich

I'm looking forward to hearing the 130/133 again. Been a while, actually!

(The other thing I love about this place: Nowhere else could I list eight different recordings of the same piece without getting a weird look!)


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## Kreisler jr

I hereby cast a weird look upon you  Only 8 recordings of late quartets?  You can hardly be a serious listener


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## StevehamNY

Kreisler jr said:


> I hereby cast a weird look upon you  Only 8 recordings of late quartets?  You can hardly be a serious listener


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## Merl

I got stuck in today and went through some one-off performances like the Petersens, Ehnes, Hagens and Tetzlaffs. I followed this up with a few from sets in my cd racks (Kodaly, Lindsays, Lasalle, Suske and Artemis). Some of these will be resurfacing in my round up. I'd strongly advise anyone who needs to listen to quality recordings of this quartet to check out some of the links suggested by Jos in his excellent post. Needless to say a lot of those will feature in my final summation with the glaring exception of one particularly historical recording. . More fishing around in my cd racks to come tomorrow before I hit the rest of my shortlist via Spotify and my hard drive.


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## Bwv 1080

My fav LvB qt. Takacs and Guarneri been my go to recordings - good opportunity to check out some other recordings

Merl has his work cut out for him


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> My fav LvB qt. Takacs and Guarneri been my go to recordings - good opportunity to check out some other recordings
> 
> Merl has his work cut out for him


Which Guarneri, Bwv? RCA or Decca?


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## SearsPoncho

I listened to the Takacs recording last night. I think this recording, along with Op. 127 and Op. 131, represents the Takacs Quartet at their best. The big, thick sound, resonant group timbre and excellent audio quality are major pluses for the whole set, including this week's selection. They place the Grosse Fugue as the proper finale and follow it with the alternative finale. For me, this quartet has always been about the 1st movement, and the best performances of Op. 130 are the ones that keep it compelling and make sense of that opening movement, while walking the line between the ambiguity and clarity which one finds in the first movements of all of Beethoven's late string quartets and piano sonatas. Perhaps the reason I like to retain the Grosse Fugue as the finale is because the transition between the Cavatina and the Fugue is so jarring, it reminds me of the same jolting effect that's so successful in the transition between the penultimate and final movements of Op. 131. It's a highlight of this unusual, somewhat difficult work. It's not necessarily difficult, but movements II, III, and IV all seem to do the same thing and occupy the same space, that is, a light, dance-like movement which provides a brief respite between weightier material. The difficulty lies in the fact (or at least my opinion) that one movement would have been fine, but three consecutive movements of light music seems a bit much. So, we've arrived at that description again - is this essentially a Serenade? A Divertimento? A Baroque-style Suite? Let's just call it Opus 130 and enjoy it's originality, whimsical qualities, and unusual character before the profundity of Op. 131 and Op. 132 hits us like a ton of bricks. 

P.S. I believe one cannot be ambivalent about the Grosse Fugue; one either loves it or hates it. Thirty years ago, I would have probably said I hated it, however I now love it.


----------



## starthrower

SearsPoncho said:


> P.S. I believe one cannot be ambivalent about the Grosse Fugue; one either loves it or hates it. Thirty years ago, I would have probably said I hated it, however I now love it.


I still need to listen to this movement more times before I can truly decide whether I really like it or not? And depending on the performance it can sound even more forceful and unrelenting. It's not as "pretty" as some of the other movements but it is fascinating to zone in on the counterpoint and all of the musical details going on in this complex piece of music. So far I've listened to the Tokyo, Yale, and Ebene recordings one time through but I'm just getting started.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

This is a golden opportunity for me to stop hating that crazy fugue thing


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## Enthusiast

So far I have listened to three accounts of Op. 130 - the Busch, the Quartetto di Cremona and the Belcea - and, as I knew I would (I have listened to them all many times), loved all three. They each have much to offer and I cannot imagine preferring one over another. It is going to get more complicated as I have another seven accounts in my collection and know them all to be very good (I have been quite tough in purging my Beethoven quartet collection of any that don't give me a lot of pleasure).

I love the Grosse Fugue but so far have played the quartets through with the less ambitious finale. The quartet is relatively benign and often lyrical which leads me to feel the Grosse Fugue, fine music though it is, does not quite fit the work. It seems too brutal and angry. Maybe I'll change my mind about that later in the week.


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> Which Guarneri, Bwv? RCA or Decca?


Had both, but prefer the later recording


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## Clloydster

What I will listen to, from my CDs and Apple Music:
Vegh
Kodaly
Talich
Smetana
Alban Berg
Mosaiques
Italiano
Takacs
Tetzlaff
Hagen
Julliard
Ebene
Danish
Brodsky
Miro
Emerson
Artemis
Taneyev
Tokyo
Guarneri
Amadeus
Budapest
Suske
Britten
Busch

Slow week here.


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## Malx

I have made a start today from the collection:

Alban Berg,
Suske,
Hungarian (can't tell an untruth, that was yesterday evening),
Tokyo (HM).

I am playing all with the alternative finale - I find the grosse fugue doesn't gel for me as a finale but well played on its own thats a different matter.


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Had both, but prefer the later recording


The Decca performance is better for this quartet, IMO. Better slow movements.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Right now I'm listening to Alban Berg quartet and Grosse Fuge and not stressing out! They are the reason I've liked the late quartets forever (op. 127 & 135). Maybe that fuge is not so crazy after all, or I'm getting used to it


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## Allegro Con Brio

It's interesting. I'm not usually the greatest fan of remorseless, spitfire "fire and fury" Beethoven, a.k.a. Appassionata sonata, Kreutzer sonata, Missa Solemnis, 7th symphony. It's undoubtedly effective at times, but it sometimes just seems like he's tastelessly pounding notes down my ears. This is also the reason why the 13th is my favorite of his quartets - as someone pointed out, it's considerably more lyrical on the whole than the other late quartets. But inexplicably, I absolutely love the Grosse Fuge, finding it one of the great post-Bachian contrapuntal masterpieces. I can't give a rationale for this - I think it is one of those daring pieces of art that mostly transcends aesthetic explanation - but I'm always blown away when I listen to it. My favorite passage of it is the long lyrical portion after the initial very long eruption, followed by the fugue on the comical clown-like subject. To me the piece almost has a proto-postmodern absurdist vibe to it, like Beethoven is at once lampooning, respecting, overhauling, and apotheosizing the fugue form to its furthest logical point; like _Don Quixote_ did with the chivalric romance, and _Tristan und Isolde_ and _Moby-Dick_ with Romanticism in general. For these reasons I totally see why many don't prefer it as the finale to the 13th, but I love the jolting transition from the celestial Cavatina to the hammered chords so much that I'm not willing to give up my prejudice and respect Beethoven's initial decision!

I'll write my thoughts on the 13th proper tomorrow after I give some more recordings a go, but I also wanted to link to the exceptionally good Wiki article on the fugue. It's quite amazing how much discussion and how many critical perspectives it has spawned, and quite amusing how contemporary reactions treated it as "incomprehensible, like Chinese" and "a confusion of Babel":lol: Beethoven also seems to be fertile inspiration in the literary sphere. The late quartets purportedly served as mental bubble gum for T.S. Eliot in crafting his awe-inspiring _Four Quartets_, while the 5th symphony plays a part in E.M. Forster's _Howards End_, and Sylvia Plath (a fantastic poet IMO) references the fugue itself in these stirring lines:



Sylvia Plath said:


> He could hear Beethoven:
> Black yew, white cloud,
> The horrific complications.
> Finger-traps-a tumult of keys.
> 
> Empty and silly as plates,
> So the blind smile.
> I envy big noises,
> The yew hedge of the Grosse Fuge.
> Deafness is something else.
> Such a dark funnel, my father!
> I see your voice
> Black and leafy, as in my childhood.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> It's interesting. I'm not usually the greatest fan of remorseless, spitfire "fire and fury" Beethoven, a.k.a. Appassionata sonata, Kreutzer sonata, Missa Solemnis, 7th symphony. It's undoubtedly effective at times, but it sometimes just seems like he's tastelessly pounding notes down my ears. This is also the reason why the 13th is my favorite of his quartets - as someone pointed out, it's considerably more lyrical on the whole than the other late quartets. But inexplicably, I absolutely love the Grosse Fuge, finding it one of the great post-Bachian contrapuntal masterpieces. I can't give a rationale for this - I think it is one of those daring pieces of art that mostly transcends aesthetic explanation - but I'm always blown away when I listen to it. My favorite passage of it is the long lyrical portion after the initial very long eruption, followed by the fugue on the comical clown-like subject. To me the piece almost has a proto-postmodern absurdist vibe to it, like Beethoven is at once lampooning, respecting, overhauling, and apotheosizing the fugue form to its furthest logical point; like _Don Quixote_ did with the chivalric romance, and _Tristan und Isolde_ and _Moby-Dick_ with Romanticism in general. For these reasons I totally see why many don't prefer it as the finale to the 13th, but I love the jolting transition from the celestial Cavatina to the hammered chords so much that I'm not willing to give up my prejudice and respect Beethoven's initial decision!
> 
> I'll write my thoughts on the 13th proper tomorrow after I give some more recordings a go, but I also wanted to link to the exceptionally good Wiki article on the fugue. It's quite amazing how much discussion and how many critical perspectives it has spawned, and quite amusing how contemporary reactions treated it as "incomprehensible, like Chinese" and "a confusion of Babel":lol: Beethoven also seems to be fertile inspiration in the literary sphere. The late quartets purportedly served as mental bubble gum for T.S. Eliot in crafting his awe-inspiring _Four Quartets_, while the 5th symphony plays a part in E.M. Forster's _Howards End_, and Sylvia Plath (a fantastic poet IMO) references the fugue itself in these stirring lines:


Just thinking of symphony No.7, never mind the other marvellous works you mention, I really don't think "remorseless" comes into it, never mind 'tasteless pounding'. The elemental rhythm in Beethoven's music is one of the things that sets his music apart from Haydn and Mozart ........


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Yup, the elemental rhythm is precisely what I have problems with. I’m much more of a harmony, melody, texture person. I recognize I’m in the minority with that opinion about Beethoven though.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Yup, the elemental rhythm is precisely what I have problems with. I'm much more of a harmony, melody, texture person. I recognize I'm in the minority with that opinion about Beethoven though.


Glad we're talking about elemental rhythm, not 'tasteless pounding' or remorselessness (avoid Bob Simpson!). Each to his own of course.


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Also Peter Gutmann on the Grosse Fuge: http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/grossefuge.html
> 
> ...and Trout's recommendations for the fugue alone. And yes, even Emerson skeptics like myself must admit that their thrilling virtuosity here hits the spot.
> 
> 1. Emerson String Quartet (1994)
> 2. Takács Quartet (2004)
> 3. Alban Berg Quartet (1989)
> 4. Quartetto Italiano (1969)
> 5. Artemis Quartet (2009)
> 6. Hagen Quartet (2001)
> 7. Tokyo String Quartet (2008)
> 8. Guarneri Quartet (1987)
> 9. Juilliard String Quartet (1996)
> 10. Yale Quartet (1971)
> Bonus: Furtwängler (cond.), Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (1954, Salzburg)


That is a most excellent and informative article. Thanks! I'm listening to several more of the Op.133 recordings and the various approaches and recorded sound make a huge difference in my enjoyment of this piece. Not sure why the Quartetto Italiano take almost nineteen minutes but I really enjoyed their performance. Also the Talich Quartet who made this piece sound mellow but this works okay for me. I listened to the Tokyo RCA again but they sound a bit too over dramatic on those frantic first several minutes combined with the liberal room acoustics is too chaotic for my taste. Also enjoyed the Emersons although the recording is a bit lean. And finally the Takacs who are recorded very well and possess a robust and muscular ensemble sound. Their performance is captured with just the right amount of room acoustics which I find far more preferable to the opposite extremes of Tokyo, and the very closely mic'd Quatuor Ebene.


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## Kreisler jr

I think as far as laying on counterpoint intricacies the op.106 finale is maybe more of a "textbook" case (e.g. once retrograde and straight form of the theme together, such stuff as Bach would do). Beethoven put, maybe a bit cheekily "tantôt libre, tantôt recherchée" (sometimes free, sometimes strict/learned (it's not the modern French meaning or recherché, I think, this is the same word as "ricercata") to quell the Beckmesser's complaints. (Like he had written "con alcune licenze" (with some liberties) in op.106)

But op.133 is rather "anti-academic" and more stunning both in the violence of the long first section, the contrasts and in the motivic transformations as a whole bunch of themes that "feel" very different are all based on that main motive. I also love the lyrical section, a mare tranquilitatis among the rage, especially of that first section. I have not yet listened to it this week, but will as the Hagen Q. has no alternate finale on its recording.
The Emerson I found a bit "prosaic", it's on a very high level of course but they don't quite seem to get the whimsical nature of 2-4 and their cavatina is rather this-worldly. I actually liked their alternate finale best! Which is not faint praise because it shows they take it seriously and not merely as an add-on.


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## Merl

Agree about the Talichs, ST. A different approach but Ive always liked their lvB cycle and its equally valid. That sweet tone they have is very attractive. If you want more muscular then there's plenty more to go at but I can take any approach as long as they sell it to me. The Ehnes recording is similar in style to the Talichs. There will be something for everyone in my final round-up and maybe a few surprises? You should remember that Trout's lists are not based on personal preferences but on positive and negative reviews online of critics and forum members. They are also quite old now and rarely mention one-off performances, focusing on accounts from cycles, primarily. Saying that there are quite a few of his picks that feature highly in my thoughts in this quartet.


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## BlackAdderLXX

This is a good pick. I haven't listened to it in too long. I've got the Takacs cycle and did my first listen this morning. The fugue can be a bit of a slot for me but I'm hoping that repeat listening this week will bring me around.


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## starthrower

ACB:



> I absolutely love the Grosse Fuge, finding it one of the great post-Bachian contrapuntal masterpieces. I can't give a rationale for this - I think it is one of those daring pieces of art that mostly transcends aesthetic explanation - but I'm always blown away when I listen to it. My favorite passage of it is the long lyrical portion after the initial very long eruption, followed by the fugue on the comical clown-like subject. To me the piece almost has a proto-postmodern absurdist vibe to it, like Beethoven is at once lampooning, respecting, overhauling, and apotheosizing the fugue form to its furthest logical point


You've got me hooked on this piece for the time being and I'm not even listening to the rest of the quartet. I find myself listening to the intro over and over because I love the way it's put together and lays out the thematic material. Although I'd stop short of the "handful of rocks" descriptor.

From the Peter Gutmann article:

Neither a salute to the past nor a summary of existing art, rather it is a bold exploration into unknown musical territory. This is apparent from the very outset, a startling one-minute "Overtura" that Kerman aptly characterizes as "not an introduction but a table of contents [that] hurls all the thematic variations at the listener's head like a handful of rocks." It begins with a unison open G (extending the final note of the cavatina) spanning three octaves and then, separated by dramatic pauses, a bold unison accelerating statement of the basic theme that ends on a brief trill; a repeated faster variant in triple time; a slower four-square rendition leading to a pastoral cascade of gentle 16th notes; and finally an even softer account that separates each tentative note with tense expectation.


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## Clloydster

So far I have listened to:
Takacs
Vegh
Kodaly
Talich
Smetana

I can't say there has been one I haven't liked. I listened to the Talich, and the strings, to me, sounded thinner - didn't impact my enjoying it, but marginally less than the others. I liked the Takacs except for the Grosse Fuge - compared to the others it feels like they take it at breakneck speed, making it even more dense.

Favorite so far is Smetana on Supraphon. Gorgeous sound, and the Grosse Fuge felt like just the right tempo. As for the Grosse Fuge, don't know how much I like it. Some parts I do, some I don't - the first part is so chaotic, but then it mellows out.

Someone here said the first movement is most critical for them, but for me, I prefer the 4th (alla danze tedesca) and the 5th (Cavatina) the most. Don't know which ending I prefer yet.


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## Bwv 1080

Listened to Auryn, ABQ and Tetzlaff. Found Auryn surprisingly disappointing - boomy sound and some intonation issues. Tetzlaff and ABQ were good, but Takacs remains my goto version.

May help to hear the Grosse Fuge in a couple of arrangements:

LvB's 4-hand piano arrangement





String orchestra


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## Kreisler jr

Now the Hagen with one of the few op.133 I will listen to (here required because they only offer this version, the fillers are fugues by Bach/Mozart (arranged for SQ/attr.). This is very good. A bit mannered in some passages in the first movement but great contrasts, the Danza tedesca probably too fast for some (a bit but I like it that way (one of my first recordings must have been fast). Very expressive and moving cavatina (IMO a different level compared to the Emersons). Their Fugue is very fast (13:15) although this is mostly due to a fast first section (Allegro 4/4) and fairly fast "slow" ("meno mosso" etc.), the 6/8 are quite normal. Despite the speed I find it among the least "ugly" sounding first sections I have heard. It is a tremendous ride. 
The disc DG 471 580-2 cannot be a first recommendation because it lacks the alternate finale but as soon as one has a good first recording, this would be one of my main recommendations for another one.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For these reasons I totally see why many don't prefer it as the finale to the 13th, but I love the jolting transition from the celestial Cavatina to the hammered chords so much that I'm not willing to give up my prejudice and respect Beethoven's initial decision!:


Great post, ACB! I'll always be a sucker for the literary allusions. But this also brings up a crucial point for me, something I don't usually hear in the discussions of 130/133: What did Beethoven himself ultimately want this piece to be? Not originally, but in the end?

I can understand someone saying that this is just an academic point and really doesn't matter (the piece lives on independent of the creator's final thoughts, etc.), but for me I can't help making the comparison between composing and writing: As in, what if I turned in a novel and my editor told me, "You know what? I don't think this Act 3 belongs in the story. It feels more like a separate thing altogether."

At this point, what do I do? If I'm as stubborn as Beethoven, I can just refuse to change it. Or, if the publisher offers me a bag of money to publish Act 3 as a separate entity, well then all of a sudden it might not look like such an outrageous request. OR, maybe I take a hard look at it and say, "You know what, you might be right. Let me try a different ending because I think that will make the whole thing work better."

I'm really looking forward to Burbage's Friday post on this quartet, because he has a way of getting into a composer's head. What was Beethoven's state of mind when he made this change? And if you went back in time and asked him at the end of his life which version of 130 was the "best" or "rightful" version, what would he have said?

And, just as importantly, how much would that answer matter to us now?


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## Knorf

The Op. 130 has long been one of my favorite among Beethoven's "late" quartets, one I have listened to and studied often.

But I never, ever listen to it with _die Große Fuge_. The story is told often how the first audience didn't like it, and how his publisher urged him to compose a different last movement. What's left out of the story is that he _agreed_ that it doesn't fit, hence the change to a new last movement, and that was literally the last complete movement of music Beethoven wrote.

_Die Große Fuge_ in no way belongs with or fits in with Op. 130. The audience, his publisher, and ultimately Beethoven himself were right to make it a separate piece. Among other reasons, it trashes the _cavatina_ as the emotional center of the quartet, and that reason alone is sufficient to justify why I listen to _die Große Fuge_ separately.

By the way, I love listening to _Die Große Fuge_. It's amazing! I'm always thrilled and intrigued by it. But never within sight of Op. 130.


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## Allegro Con Brio

StevehamNY said:


> Great post, ACB! I'll always be a sucker for the literary allusions.


I really can't help it. I'm just your average starry-eyed English major. But I do think there is a vital connection between literature and music, and I like to elucidate those connections and relate the overall ideas to the cultural period whenever I can.



> But this also brings up a crucial point for me, something I don't usually hear in the discussions of 130/133: What did Beethoven himself ultimately want this piece to be? Not originally, but in the end?
> 
> I can understand someone saying that this is just an academic point and really doesn't matter (the piece lives on independent of the creator's final thoughts, etc.), but for me I can't help making the comparison between composing and writing: As in, what if I turned in a novel and my editor told me, "You know what? I don't think this Act 3 belongs in the story. It feels more like a separate thing altogether."
> 
> At this point, what do I do? If I'm as stubborn as Beethoven, I can just refuse to change it. Or, if the publisher offers me a bag of money to publish Act 3 as a separate entity, well then all of a sudden it might not look like such an outrageous request. OR, maybe I take a hard look at it and say, "You know what, you might be right. Let me try a different ending because I think that will make the whole thing work better."


Honestly, I think it's probably likely that Beethoven realized the fugue was a bit big for its britches and made for a bit of an incongruous ending, despite all the subtle connections with the music that had gone before. I just wish he had come up with more of a musically substantial finale; I find it too lightweight to balance the cavatina and the searching first movement. It was the last thing he was ever to write, so it's possible that it was mostly perfunctory for him. Ultimately I see both options as legitimate but prefer the original as a sheer matter of taste; just as I do with other conundra such as A-S in Mahler's 6th. I see the very concept of "correctness" in musical scholarship and interpretation to be mostly fruitless.



> I'm really looking forward to Burbage's Friday post on this quartet, because he has a way of getting into a composer's head. What was Beethoven's state of mind when he made this change? And if you went back in time and asked him at the end of his life which version of 130 was the "best" or "rightful" version, what would he have said?


And, just as importantly, how much would that answer matter to us now?[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, Burbage hasn't written a Friday post the last couple weeks. I hope he's OK!

Oh, and I do want to apologize for using the term "tasteless pounding" yesterday. That's an exaggeration of my negative reaction. I do think Beethoven's rhythmic power is a major part of his genius and I admire him greatly for that, but there are some instances where he just goes overboard with it IMO and hovers perilously close to my definition of "bombast." He hovers just outside my top 5 composers most days.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do think Beethoven's rhythmic power is a major part of his genius and I admire him greatly for that, but there are some instances where he just goes overboard with it IMO and hovers perilously close to my definition of "bombast."


That's one of the things I admire the most about Beethoven: how perilously close he treads on the "too much" line in terms of rhythmic insistence, or even obsessiveness, pushing things two or three notches further than anyone else would. It takes guts to create something and take those risks.


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## Bwv 1080

Knorf said:


> The Op. 130 has long been one of my favorite among Beethoven's "late" quartets, one I have listened to and studied often.
> 
> But I never, ever listen to it with _die Große Fuge_. The story is told often how the first audience didn't like it, and how his publisher urged him to compose a different last movement. What's left out of the story is that he _agreed_ that it doesn't fit, hence the change to a new last movement, and that was literally the last complete movement of music Beethoven wrote.
> 
> _Die Große Fuge_ in no way belongs with or fits in with Op. 130. The audience, his publisher, and ultimately Beethoven himself were right to make it a separate piece. Among other reasons, it trashes the _cavatina_ as the emotional center of the quartet, and that reason alone is sufficient to justify why I listen to _die Große Fuge_ separately.
> 
> By the way, I love listening to _Die Große Fuge_. It's amazing! I'm always thrilled and intrigued by it. But never within sight of Op. 130.


Agree with this 100%, the rondo is a great answer to the Cavatina - motivically related, picks up and lightens the mood and ends the work, leaving the weight in the first movement and the Cavatina. The fugue, which I love, seems to be in a completely different sound world. LvB was not one to cave to critics, so IMO his revision should be respected


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## SearsPoncho

Clloydster said:


> So far I have listened to:
> Takacs
> Vegh
> Kodaly
> Talich
> Smetana
> 
> I can't say there has been one I haven't liked. I listened to the Talich, and the strings, to me, sounded thinner - didn't impact my enjoying it, but marginally less than the others. I liked the Takacs except for the Grosse Fuge - compared to the others it feels like they take it at breakneck speed, making it even more dense.
> 
> Favorite so far is Smetana on Supraphon. Gorgeous sound, and the Grosse Fuge felt like just the right tempo. As for the Grosse Fuge, don't know how much I like it. Some parts I do, some I don't - the first part is so chaotic, but then it mellows out.
> 
> Someone here said the first movement is most critical for them, but for me, I prefer the 4th (alla danze tedesca) and the 5th (Cavatina) the most. Don't know which ending I prefer yet.


Glad to hear about the Smetana Qt. They've recorded some great Beethoven and Mozart. Their recording of Mozart's K515 and K516 Quintets is my favorite.


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## SearsPoncho

I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but one of the things I admire the most about the Grosse Fugue is that Beethoven had the balls to write something like that.


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## Knorf

SearsPoncho said:


> I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but one of the things I admire the most about the Grosse Fugue is that Beethoven had the balls to write something like that.


The Tribunal of the Honored Elders of Classical Music has convened.

Official ruling: statement allowed. Please proceed.


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## Bwv 1080

Knorf said:


> The Tribunal of the Honored Elders of Classical Music has convened.
> 
> Official ruling: statement allowed. Please proceed.


There is just the matter of the customary gratuity for the elders. All major credit cards are accepted


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## Bwv 1080

Check out the Ehnes Qt recording - best I have come across this week

No better intonation and sound quality


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## Merl

It was mentioned before, I think by Henry, but I'm very much in the Beethoven rhythm school whether it's SQs or symphonies. Tempi can be an issue but it's rarely an issue unless performers lose the pulse. In the op.130 I find a strong sense of rhythm essential for the inner movements. Recordings that score highly for me have that elemental pulse, whether played lightly or more muscularly. I'm not a 'cavatina or bust' guy in this quartet. It's not even my favourite movement but I do adore the inner movements and feel they make or break a performance, rather than the weaker bookends, so that's where look for results. For a masterclass in rhythm check out the Takacs or Petersens and how they keep the energy within the performance so that things never lag, even in slow movements. Dynamics is similarly essential here and as long as they aren't a bit overcooked (Di Cremona, Orford) then all is good. Check out the Artemis and Brentano quartets for just the right level here.

Here's a link to my round-up, if you're interested.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3488-beethoven-string-quartet-13-a.html


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## Malx

Yesterday I finished listening to the recordings I have on the shelves or in shoe boxes or where ever there is a space. So added to those already posted are:

Alexander Quartet (Arte Nova)
Gewandhaus Quartet
Belcea Quartet

To my ear there is not a failure in any I have listened to this week. Listening in quick succession has led me to four that I would be happy to live with if some unseen force decreed that four was the maximum permitted per person. Repeating myself - I am in the camp of regarding the Grosse Fugue as a seperate, very fine, entity, so all my listening has been in a fugue free zone.
I will leave others to describe in great depth the technical differences between all the performances but these are the four I have chosen as my current preferences.
In no particular order - as a historical choice I am happy with the Hungarian Quartet, decent sound and for me a benchmark recording. Next along are the Alban Berg Quartet (studio) there is a warmth and almost a feeling that this quartet love this music or is that just me that hears that. For two recordings in quality sound I'd opt for the Tokyo Quartet (HM) and the Belcea Quartet perhaps on this listen a slight preference for the Tokyo's - perhaps I'm getting influenced by the Olympics.

Earlier in the thread I stated that I didn't listen to this quartet as much as some of the other late quartets so for me this has been an excellent exercise and opportunity to better acquaint myself with the piece - its not bad is it!


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## starthrower

This week's selection has inspired me to really start digging in to the late quartets. I don't like to listen to one piece over and over so along with Op.130, and the Grosse Fuge I'm taking in Opp.132, and 131. I think it was Josquin who mentioned 132 as his personal favorite and after a few spins I'm in the same camp. Op.131 hasn't really clicked for me yet.

Some of the comments here have been a useful guide in what to listen for like the rhythmic pulse aspect. I decided I could use a little more education to improve my listening skills so I ordered a used copy of the Beethoven Quartet Companion. I posted a link for the article from the book on Op.130, and there maybe others online? But I'm looking forward to reading about these works the old fashioned way in my easy chair. And for any others who are interested there are used copies online for five bucks.


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## Kreisler jr

I love the cavatina but as I wrote above, I think Beethoven on purpose avoided a huge slow movement as "centrepiece" (as in 127 and 132, after all these three were conceived and composed somewhat together for Golizyn). Therefore I think that this quartet has no center and a different trajectory than the others. With the fugue, the final obviously is the weightiest, otherwise the first movement. 
While I am rather indifferent to fugue or alternative final, I agree that it should be taken into account how easily Beethoven was persuaded to write an alternative final. He had been far more stubborn about far smaller things before and I read (I think this is in Kerman's book) that the extra money the publisher promised for the split publication and new final was about a month's income (or living costs) of Beethoven at the time.

Last night I listened to the Busch (1941) which is always interesting if one gets along with historical sound. They play the 3rd and 4th movement uncommonly fast, maybe due to Shellac playing times. While I think that these two movements are sometimes taken to broadly (alla tedesca basically means fast waltz tempo cf. the "cuckoo" presto alla tedesca in op.79) this goes a bit to the other extreme. Great Cavatina and also a good alternate final.


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## Malx

Just to show how ridiculous this collecting bug can become I thought I had covered all the recordings I have but I forgot about two complete sets I have on my hard drive - the* Vegh (1952)* and the* Colorado* sets, both must have been cheap downloads.
I'll get round to them later in the week.
Can you believe I tend to forget what I have on my hard drive - anything I feel is important I burn to disc, I still like the physical act of putting a disc in a player. One day I must drag myself into the 20th century the 21st will have to wait.


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## Enthusiast

Malx said:


> Just to show how ridiculous this collecting bug can become I thought I had covered all the recordings I have but I forgot about two complete sets I have on my hard drive - the* Vegh (1952)* and the* Colorado* sets, both must have been cheap downloads.
> I'll get round to them later in the week.
> Can you believe I tend to forget what I have on my hard drive - anything I feel is important I burn to disc, I still like the physical act of putting a disc in a player. One day I must drag myself into the 20th century the 21st will have to wait.


And the opposite can also happen. I know I have the Talich's Beethoven quartets - I bought them separately as my first Beethoven quartet cycle many decades ago - but I haven't played them for a while. Now I can't find them anywhere!


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Just to show how ridiculous this collecting bug can become I thought I had covered all the recordings I have but I forgot about two complete sets I have on my hard drive - the* Vegh (1952)* and the* Colorado* sets, both must have been cheap downloads.
> I'll get round to them later in the week.
> Can you believe I tend to forget what I have on my hard drive - anything I feel is important I burn to disc, I still like the physical act of putting a disc in a player. One day I must drag myself into the 20th century the 21st will have to wait.


Btw, Malx, the Colorado is wiith the Grosse Fugue finale only, if I recall.


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## Clloydster

I think I am tapped out. I might try some still, like Merl's much praised Danish, but I think there is only so much of listening to the same thing I can do without them all sounding the same. I can't say I found any that I didn't like. I listened to:
Vegh
Kodaly
Talich
Smetana
Alban Berg
Mosaiques
Italiano
Takacs

I continue to enjoy Beethoven's string quartets.


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## Malx

Clloydster said:


> I think I am tapped out. I might try some still, like Merl's much praised Danish, but I think there is only so much of listening to the same thing I can do without them all sounding the same. I can't say I found any that I didn't like. I listened to:
> Vegh
> Kodaly
> Talich
> Smetana
> Alban Berg
> Mosaiques
> Italiano
> Takacs
> 
> I continue to enjoy Beethoven's string quartets.


A pretty tasty selection Clloydster


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## Clloydster

Malx said:


> A pretty tasty selection Clloydster


Still think the Smetana is my favorite of that group. Although I did enjoy the Italiano, just as I did for their recording of the 1st Razumovsky. But I'll probably go in and try the Danish recording. Right now listening to Ravel's.


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## Carmina Banana

starthrower said:


> This week's selection has inspired me to really start digging in to the late quartets. I don't like to listen to one piece over and over so along with Op.130, and the Grosse Fuge I'm taking in Opp.132, and 131. I think it was Josquin who mentioned 132 as his personal favorite and after a few spins I'm in the same camp. Op.131 hasn't really clicked for me yet.
> 
> Some of the comments here have been a useful guide in what to listen for like the rhythmic pulse aspect. I decided I could use a little more education to improve my listening skills so I ordered a used copy of the Beethoven Quartet Companion. I posted a link for the article from the book on Op.130, and there maybe others online? But I'm looking forward to reading about these works the old fashioned way in my easy chair. And for any others who are interested there are used copies online for five bucks.


Speaking of opus 132. I parked on the street yesterday and this car was parked in front of me:


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## Carmina Banana

Don't know why the image is sidewise, but you get the idea.


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> Speaking of opus 132. I parked on the street yesterday and this car was parked in front of me:
> View attachment 157879


Like the "Schoenberg is not contemporary" shirt I saw on the subway last month, I wonder how many people will get this reference!


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## Josquin13

That license plate is brilliant! I wonder who owns the car? Obviously, a Beethoven lover...

Which Smetana Quartet recording are people listening to, the 1960s recording, for Supraphon? or, the Denon/Supraphon recording from the late 1970s, early 80s?


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## Bwv 1080

Carmina Banana said:


> Don't know why the image is sidewise, but you get the idea.


Thats a glitch of the forum, best to use a photoshare site like postimage.org

Inspired me to order an OP 130 plate tonight








[/URL][/IMG]


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## Knorf

I used to have a license plate that was assigned (not custom) LVB 103. 

That's not a string quartet, but it is Beethoven's wonderful Octet in E-flat major for winds, Op. 103.


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## StevehamNY

Knorf said:


> I used to have a license plate that was assigned (not custom) LVB 103.
> 
> That's not a string quartet, but it is Beethoven's wonderful Octet in E-flat major for winds, Op. 103.


And when you pressed your horn, it played the first few notes of the octet?

(If this did not happen, we will need a good explanation!)


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## StevehamNY

We covered many of the Beethoven album covers just a few weeks ago, so I won't drag them out again. But I have to say that if I ever see this particular cover in an actual brick-and-mortar store, I will have a small heart attack before buying it immediately:









I have this in digital format, of course. (OF COURSE, because how would I live without it?) But the CD box set is almost unobtainable right now.

As you can probably already guess, this is my favorite. I can't even explain why, because it's not "better" in any quantifiable way (sound quality, intonation, etc.). But if I can only hear these quartets one more time before dying, this is what I'm playing.

Having said that, how did I miss this album cover the last time around?









This is so batsh*t crazy, it might actually be brilliant!


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> That license plate is brilliant! I wonder who owns the car? Obviously, a Beethoven lover...
> 
> Which Smetana Quartet recording are people listening to, the 1960s recording, for Supraphon? or, the Denon/Supraphon recording from the late 1970s, early 80s?


I listened to both but slightly preferred the Denon one on the rereleased Supraphon set. I'll update it in my round-up. Soz Joz.


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## Kreisler jr

The Vegh box was available for about a month or so and then vanished again. Unfortunately, the older singles are also hard to find. 

Can anyone identify the bridge/building on that cover?


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## Art Rock

Carmina Banana said:


> Don't know why the image is sidewise, but you get the idea.


https://www.talkclassical.com/71781-tips-tricks-workarounds.html#post2113264


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> The Vegh box was available for about a month or so and then vanished again. Unfortunately, the older singles are also hard to find.
> 
> *Can anyone identify the bridge/building on that cover?*


Here's the info on the photo from the booklet, Kreisler.

"Photos Fernando Perret, La Chaux-de-Fonds.'

I believe La Chaux-de-Fonds is a Swiss city.


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## Kreisler jr

I looked into the booklet as I have the set. Thanks for taking the trouble.

But the bridge etc. is not the Beethovenhaus, neither a painting of Beethoven.

Roger-Viollet [sic, it is spelled incorrectly in the booklet] is an agency. 
I guess it is some early 20th century scene from France? I'd have thought that the combination of that steel bridge with the neogothic? building would be recognizable by some people

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger-Viollet


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> We covered many of the Beethoven album covers just a few weeks ago, so I won't drag them out again. But I have to say that if I ever see this particular cover in an actual brick-and-mortar store, I will have a small heart attack before buying it immediately:
> 
> View attachment 157885
> 
> 
> I have this in digital format, of course. (OF COURSE, because how would I live without it?) But the CD box set is almost unobtainable right now.
> 
> As you can probably already guess, this is my favorite. I can't even explain why, because it's not "better" in any quantifiable way (sound quality, intonation, etc.). But if I can only hear these quartets one more time before dying, this is what I'm playing.
> 
> Having said that, how did I miss this album cover the last time around?
> 
> View attachment 157887
> 
> 
> This is so batsh*t crazy, it might actually be brilliant!


Nope - its just batsh*t crazy!


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## Allegro Con Brio

StevehamNY said:


> View attachment 157887
> 
> 
> This is so batsh*t crazy, it might actually be brilliant!


For the briefest of seconds, I thought Beethoven was wearing a COVID mask:lol:


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> For the briefest of seconds, I thought Beethoven was wearing a COVID mask:lol:


That went through my mind as well as the Statue of Liberty, and rising sea levels.


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## SanAntone

StevehamNY said:


> We covered many of the Beethoven album covers just a few weeks ago, so I won't drag them out again. But I have to say that if I ever see this particular cover in an actual brick-and-mortar store, I will have a small heart attack before buying it immediately:
> 
> View attachment 157885
> 
> 
> I have this in digital format, of course. (OF COURSE, because how would I live without it?) But the CD box set is almost unobtainable right now.


I have both the 1952 Vegh mono set and the stereo one pictured above. Both are among the best, IMO - the earlier one might be a little better although recorded quality is not as good.


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


> We covered many of the Beethoven album covers just a few weeks ago, so I won't drag them out again. But I have to say that if I ever see this particular cover in an actual brick-and-mortar store, I will have a small heart attack before buying it immediately:
> 
> View attachment 157885
> 
> 
> I have this in digital format, of course. (OF COURSE, because how would I live without it?) But the CD box set is almost unobtainable right now.
> 
> As you can probably already guess, this is my favorite. I can't even explain why, because it's not "better" in any quantifiable way (sound quality, intonation, etc.). But if I can only hear these quartets one more time before dying, this is what I'm playing.
> 
> Having said that, how did I miss this album cover the last time around?
> 
> View attachment 157887
> 
> 
> This is so batsh*t crazy, it might actually be brilliant!


Steve: The 1st one looks like a reverse version of Edvard Munch's famous painting The Scream. The 2nd one looks like it could have come out of The Exorcist, The Silence of the Lambs, or Jaws. "And the thing about a shark is he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes. When he comes at ya, he doesn't even seem to be livin'… 'til he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then… ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin'."


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## Kjetil Heggelund

This week I've only listened to this quartet (and some Mayhem and funk...) Now I put on the Leipzigers, whom have been my favorite quartet the last years. I also liked the Danish quartet a lot and of course ABQ. The late quartets have been my favorite Beethoven after (almost) growing up, along with the Archduke trio. I've heard here om TC before, that it's a golden age for string quartets and I like what I hear  Earlier I said I probably would whistle tunes from this quartet in the supermarket, but probably not, that would be "Baby Shark"... maybe Alla danza tedesca...


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> This week I've only listened to this quartet (and some Mayhem and funk...) Now I put on the Leipzigers, whom have been my favorite quartet the last years. I also liked the Danish quartet a lot and of course ABQ. The late quartets have been my favorite Beethoven after (almost) growing up, along with the Archduke trio. I've heard here om TC before, that it's a golden age for string quartets and I like what I hear  Earlier I said I probably would whistle tunes from this quartet in the supermarket, but probably not, that would be "Baby Shark"... maybe Alla danza tedesca...


Baby Shark would be an interesting quartet particularly if played using a ski glove.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Baby Shark would be an interesting quartet particularly if played using a ski glove.


I must quibble with your abuse of the word "interesting" in this context.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I suppose my opinion that Beethoven's 13th is not only the man's best quartet but the finest string quartet of all time is, along with my occasional distaste for Beethoven's rhythmic incessance and my preference for the Grosse Fuge as finale, very much a minority opinion - and I wasn't sure if I expected it to last after listening to it this week. But I found myself immersed in it like few other works we've done. The thought came to me today as I listened to my fourth (!) performance in a row while working - I could quite literally listen to this music all day. It's not the first time that Beethoven's quartets have done that to me - I once listened to all five late quartets straight through - but I never fail to be amazed at just how _great_ this music is. I believe that it conveys immeasurably profound thoughts about doubt, transcendence, struggle, and hope in ways unmatched by any other music outside of Bach; but those are all admittedly very subjective interpretations. In the 13th (which actually came after the 15th, BTW), I actually find the sense of Beethovenian heroism magnified by the fact that most of the music is lyrical and relaxed. The best performances will find those uncomfortable currents that simmer under the surface and hint at them as they intermittently bleed through the fabric of all those glorious tunes until they erupt with fury in the Grosse Fuge - or are put to rest in the "real" finale - whichever you prefer. I love the sense of fragmented hesitation in the first movement for all its beauty - the contrast between the opening slow material, which sounds like a Bach chorale, and the jovial eruption of contrapuntal energy. There is a very special passage at the end of the development around 8:30 in on most recordings with expo repeat in which the harmonies seem bleached of color, floating around in ambiguous territory with little alien scraps of pitches, as if Beethoven has utterly lost his way, before magically seguing into the recapitulation. I think the third movement is something truly special and the toughest to play well. It is folksy and genial, but it needs to walk the line between carefree peasants whistling while they work and a shadowy dance. I haven't been able to stop humming it all day. And the Cavatina, repetitive as it is, resides comfortably in my upper echelon of LVB slow movements.

I took in 9 very different recordings, and I offer some quick perceptions on each:

*Auryn* - Some may not care for the Auryns' self-conscious seriousness, but I always find their playing to burst with character. They're quite restrained and reticent here, and the recording is a bit odd, but I love their "old school" touches throughout, and they play the Grosse Fuge in a way you're unlike to hear it elsewhere; I can't describe it but you need to hear it.

*Takacs* - I always find myself including these guys in any Beethoven survey because I count them as my favorite modern cycle. Opulent tone, unbeatable expressivity, and an impeccable feel for Beethoven's singing lines and organic development - I always find myself thinking that this is how LvB would have loved to hear his music played (if he could hear, that is). Another major bonus is the remarkable clarity of the counterpoint - if you want to study the score, this is the one to hear.

*Borodin* - I wasn't terribly impressed with this one, as despite the Borodins' strong emotional investment they lack the character of the original ensemble and there was somewhat of a lack of momentum.

*Danish* - I won't go as far as Merl and say it's my favorite, but this is an utterly unique recording that begs to be heard. I found the first movement disappointingly generalized, but things pick up starting with the wonderfully characterful Presto and they nail every aspect of the third movement and the Danza Alla Tedesca. Their Cavatina is reverent and prayerful, and they turn in about the most abrasive, hard-nosed, insanely unsubtle version of the Grosse Fuge you'll ever hear - and it's deliriously fun; it truly sounds like a contemporary piece the way they do it.

*Busch* - No other quartet sounds like they are making up the music on the spot like they do; like any great work of art the effect they produce is beyond words. An undisputed Desert Island Disc for me.

*Budapest* - I normally rate these guys very highly for their rustic flavor, but they sound a bit more prosaic than usual here, save for the lovely Cavatina and some nice touches in the third movement.

*Ehnes* - I love James Ehnes as a soloist, so I had high hopes here. It's gorgeously played with rich tone, but there weren't too many distinguishing characteristics, though the performance carries plenty of interest due to the beauty of the tone and phrasing. It very much reminded of an ABQ recording in this regard.

*Guarneri* - This was the least impressive of the batch - very straightforward in a clear attempt to "let the music speak for itself," but I was unmoved.

*Juilliard* - I know they have their detractors for their head-scratching and intrusive intonation slips, of which there are plenty here. This is unfortunate, but I just can't get enough of their lighter "French" approach with suave inflections, feathery tone, and oodles of personality. Elegance personified, though it certainly isn't the only way to do Beethoven.


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## BlackAdderLXX

I just finished my third time listen this week. I only have the Takacs and they are great in this cycle, so I have just been 'suffering through' 

High points for me are the Second movement - and the Finale. The 2nd mvt. is just so fun and clever. The Presto Finale is just lovely. The playful melody of the first subject is just so classical and light I can't help but love it. Thus ends my brilliant analysis of this work. (; 

I have to say that I really love this quartet (grosse fugue not so much).


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## Enthusiast

Of all composers Beethoven is the one who it seems can be played in a great variety of ways and still be good. You might have preferences for how a Beethoven piece should go but I tend not to. I have listened to more than 12 accounts of Op. 130 and many of them seem exceptional and yet different from each other. To the extent that I can feel which ones are best for me it seems that what matters is not so much about interpretation as the quality of the playing (of course) and how strongly they engage my interest and inspire or move me. Given this I can see no way to choose between some of the many that I have listened to. What is clear to me is that from this week's listening there are some that I particularly enjoyed:

- The *Alban Berg Quartet *seem almost perfect and there often seems to be just a little more from them compared to apparently similar accounts. 
- The *Belcea Quartet *seem so easy to live with and yet they get there for me, too. 
- The classic *Busch Quartet *recording is also marvellous and unmissable and the sound is pretty good so there is no reason to exclude them from any attempt to identify "the best".
- The *Cremona Quartet *might be a more unusual choice but I enjoy their account a lot.
- There are moments of magic in the *Danish Quartet's *recording that really lift it and they really draw you in as in a compelling conversation.

If I had to choose between those it would be joint first for ABQ, Busch and the Danish.

Less good (but still very good) for me on these hearings (it might be different on another day) were the Artemis Quartet (it seemed a little generic and lacking in anything distinctive); the Borodin Quartet (just a little stolid and occasionally a little dull in comparison with some of the others); the Mosaiques Quartet (a little dull) and I wasn't entirely sure about the Italiano. I was also unsure about the Budapest but I listened to their later set which many feel is not as good as their earlier work.

I don't think I had time to do justice to the Vegh and the Takacs - but they didn't jump out at me - and only listened to the Smetana and the Brodsky after reading of Merl's elevation of their readings (both very good but they didn't quite make it to my favourites after one hearing). I couldn't find my Talich (an old favourite) records. We should have had a fortnight for this one!

I also listened to the Grosse Fugue in several performances including with the main quartet when the performers chose to avoid the smaller finale (as with the Danish Quartet). It didn't seem so easy to choose between the performances here (although the ABQ stood out, I think, for making more of the piece).


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## starthrower

I surprised myself taking in six different performances of the quartet since last Sunday including Tokyo RCA, Ebéne, Yale, Talich, Takacs, and Italiano. I don't really need anymore CDs but if they were readily available at a good price I'd be tempted to pick up the Takacs, and Talich recordings. The late quartets at the very least and the complete Takacs which seems to have vanished from the marketplace.

I suppose going with the nine minute finale makes for a more pleasant and breezy listening experience and it's lighthearted and pleasant enough. But I'm satisfied to turn off the CD player after the Cavatina and save the Grosse Fuge for a separate listening session. It's a more interesting and challenging piece to dive into than the shorter finale.

Thanks to Sbmonty for a great choice and to everybody for their informative comments, suggestions, and analysis of this great quartet. This week's discussion truly inspired me to get busy listening to the late quartets.


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## Merl

Tbh, it wasn't easy making any sort of personal value judgements when different quartets used the different endings so I just tried to keep my comments more generic on how well the account worked as a whole. Going back and having a quick relisten today I found myself more and more impressed with my old ABQ recording. Its no wonder that studio set is held in such high regard, its just so classy. I'm glad many enjoyed the Takacs - I think it's a terrific reading.the difference between the recordings I posted was so minor that I'd be happy with any of the recordings I put in my list. Some other very nice accounts didn't make it (eg Kodaly, Taneyev, Lasalle, Yale, etc) just because the standard was so high. I understand totally why some might not rate a few of my picks so high but I did relisten to ones that have stood out to me in the past or new ones that I found. I found it interesting that you liked the Di Cremona a lot, Enthusiast. I rated their 15th very highly of I recall but was less enamoured with their vision of this one. It's a strange cycle, tbh, as there are some great performances in there. The reviews were equally very mixed on that set, too, and I actually ended up defending it against one disgruntled buyer on this site not long ago. It would be interesting to do an early LVB quartet some time as I feel that some quartets are far more successful in op.18 than the middles or lates (no names) and there are some great standalones. Incidentally, I've already picked my quartet for the weekend. All I'll say is it is, a personal favourite and has quite a few recordings (and many terrific ones amongst them).


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## Malx

^ You tease Merl


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## Clloydster

Merl said:


> Tbh, it wasn't easy making any sort of personal value judgements when different quartets used the different endings so I just tried to keep my comments more generic on how well the account worked as a whole. Going back and having a quick relisten today I found myself more and more impressed with my old ABQ recording. Its no wonder that studio set is held in such high regard, its just so classy. I'm glad many enjoyed the Takacs - I think it's a terrific reading.the difference between the recordings I posted was so minor that I'd be happy with any of the recordings I put in my list. Some other very nice accounts didn't make it (eg Kodaly, Taneyev, Lasalle, Yale, etc) just because the standard was so high. I understand totally why some might not rate a few of my picks so high but I did relisten to ones that have stood out to me in the past or new ones that I found. I found it interesting that you liked the Di Cremona a lot, Enthusiast. I rated their 15th very highly of I recall but was less enamoured with their vision of this one. It's a strange cycle, tbh, as there are some great performances in there. The reviews were equally very mixed on that set, too, and I actually ended up defending it against one disgruntled buyer on this site not long ago. It would be interesting to do an early LVB quartet some time as I feel that some quartets are far more successful in op.18 than the middles or lates (no names) and there are some great standalones. *Incidentally, I've already picked my quartet for the weekend. All I'll say is it is, a personal favourite and has quite a few recordings (and many terrific ones amongst them).*


Looking forward to your pick.


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## HenryPenfold

I've only been listening to Emerson and Italiano this week, quite different performances, of course. I've enjoyed Emerson a little more, this time around. Very often Italiano win me over in most things, but I really enjoy the crispness in the Emerson's playing in LvB and Schubert. I had hoped to give the Hagen and Tokyo quartets a spin, but I got distracted by the other late LvB quartets. Unusually for me, I didn't spin the Big Fugue at all ......


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> .... Unusually for me, I didn't spin the Big Fugue at all ......


I think that needs its own week.


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## sbmonty

Thank you for a terrific discussion this week. I certainly learned much, and as always, it was an absolute pleasure to read all the insightful comments. 

Coincidentally, Gramophone published an article this month on Op. 130. Lots of different recordings are discussed but they chose the following in summary:

Historical: Busch
Modern: Takács
Contemporary: Ébène
Top choice: Végh (second cycle)


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## Clloydster

sbmonty said:


> Thank you for a terrific discussion this week. I certainly learned much, and as always, it was an absolute pleasure to read all the insightful comments.
> 
> Coincidentally, Gramophone published an article this month on Op. 130. Lots of different recordings are discussed but they chose the following in summary:
> 
> Historical: Busch
> Modern: Takács
> Contemporary: Ébène
> Top choice: Végh (second cycle)


I definitely listened to the Takacs recording. I didn't make it to Busch or Ebene. I listened to a Vegh recording, but don't know which cycle it was.


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## Kreisler jr

The first Vegh is mono, so if it was a stereo recording it was the early 1970s second recording (far better known and usually better distributed but I don't know about streaming services).


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## Clloydster

Kreisler jr said:


> The first Vegh is mono, so if it was a stereo recording it was the early 1970s second recording (far better known and usually better distributed but I don't know about streaming services).


Okay - I'm pretty sure it was a stereo recording - it was on the Naive label.

In which case I listened to two of those, and enjoyed both - but again, I think my preference was for the Smetana.


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## Carmina Banana

This is a lot to chew in one week, especially if we consider the Grosse Fuge (somehow Big Fugue just sounds silly) as an alternative ending. I suppose you could say the fugue is the real finale and the Allegro is the alternative, depending on your perspective.
I managed to get in a few listens and will try to offer up a couple meager comments. In the spirit of late Beethoven, my comments will be fragmented and confusing.
I object strongly to those who say the nature of this or other late quartets is similar to a suite. That term, to me implies a sampling of variety musical offerings that are thrown together for convenience, but don’t necessarily have meaning as an overall structure. One of my theories (I’m sure someone else has written about this but I haven’t seen it explicitly) is that Beethoven expanded the basic concept of sonata form to a macro level. Just as the A theme and B theme had to work themselves within the confines of first movement, now the first and second movement need to sort out their differences within the confines of the piece as a whole. 

I think one of the major topics to be addressed in this quartet, especially if one adopts the fugue, is phrase length and fragmentation. A trend from the classical era into the romantic era is, I think, longer phrase units. Instruments are developed in such a way to sustain longer melodic lines, techniques are likewise developed, singers are trained this way, etc. Much of Beethoven’s work exhibits this trend. 
In this context, the bizarre fragments we find in this quartet are not only an interesting compositional technique, but indicate a breakdown. A breakdown in the system. A breakdown in music. Beethoven is falling apart at the seams.
One of the most heartbreaking moments in music, for me, is the final moments of the Grosse Fuge. Everything has been tried and failed and the music just sort of…stops. Suddenly the first violin revs up the dotted rhythm fugue subject one more time and immediately realizes this is is a lost cause. It is almost cringeworthy. You can imagine the other musicians sadly shaking their heads. Just stop. There is no way out of this fugue. We are all going to die here. Let’s just finish with a few trills like we used to do in the simpler days of the rococo. 
I think if anyone listens to the Grosse Fuge and feels victorious afterwards, they are maybe missing the point. 
Of course, I am not saying the entire work (opus 130) is about disintegration and failure. Because it is Beethoven, it is more about the conflict between disintegration and integration. Unity and disunity. 

Of recent listens, I enjoyed the Leipzigers because I feel like they are not afraid to be vulnerable and leave some questions unanswered. At times in this piece, I think tentative is best approach. 

The Alban Berg Quartet was beautiful, It made sense of everything. In the first movement, I was hardly aware of how disruptive the Allegro was. Even their gorgeous cavatina seemed to incorporate those “beklemmpt” notes from the first violin into part of one big satisfying whole. For those reasons, I guess I don’t like it? No, I have to say I like it, but it isn’t a version that stresses the difficulties and contradictions of this piece. 

One very interesting listening experience was the Ebene live from the Wissembourg Festival (on youtube). The fugue was terrifying. You have to trade in a lot of polish and perfection for sheer excitement, but when you hear this fugue live, it is like being on a roller coaster and seeing nuts and bolts flying by.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina: Very interesting comments. Beethoven surely expanded the boundaries of Sonata-Allegro form, as well as what could be included in a string quartet or sonata. Of course, Haydn was the originator of all this, or at least the first great composer who formed the blueprint for all these musical forms, placing a wide variety of musical forms in some of his string quartets; he found there was more than one way to skin a cat (isn't that an unusual saying!). Sonata-Allegro form was still king, but it wasn't always 1) Sonata-Allegro, 2) Lyrical Adagio, 3) Menuetto, and 4) Rondo or Sonata-Allegro. Beethoven added even more, and some of it is very difficult to analyze. What about the first movement to the Op. 132 String Quartet? What is that?! Sonata-Allegro? I suppose it is, but it's unlike any sonata-allegro movement I've ever heard. As a music-lover, my main concern is the end result, and whatever he does in Op. 132's 1st movement is a remarkable entry into my favorite quartet of all time.


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## Kreisler jr

If I compare the piece to a divertimento I don't mean that it is "loosely" structured or haphazard. It's simply that to have several shortish movements of the minuet/scherzo and andante/adagio type "in the middle" is the mark of many classical divertimenti. The least "divertimento-like" and greatest of which was Mozart's trio K 563. In addition there is the explicit title "danza tedesca", unique among Beethoven quartets and the 3rd movement is apparently also a mix between a scherzando and a slow movement which is more divertimento-like than e.g. the Dankgesang would be.


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## Kreisler jr

op.132, i is a modified sonata movement with a brief intro (and these adagio bars with the 4 note motto that also forms the core of the op.133 fugue theme appear again at some). 
The puzzling thing is that it has two recapitulations, the first in the "wrong key", I think dominant, e minor instead of a minor. There are some Haydn movements where it is difficult to cleary sort out development and recap but the strange thing about op.132 is that these segments are fairly clearly separated, just that there are two recaps.


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## Josquin13

I remember when I first started collecting LP records, trying to find recordings of Beethoven's Late Quartets that I liked. I finally found an LP by the Vegh Quartet on Astree/Naive that I felt (at last!) did justice to the music (it was one of their later stereo recordings). So, I proudly took the LP over to my girlfriend's apartment at the time, and excitedly played my new discovery for her. She was a professional musician, who played string quartets on a regular basis with her friends (when they had the time--& what a joy it was to listen to live SQs in her living room). She had studied with Felix Galimer at Curtis, and played chamber music with Mieczyslaw Horszowski, at his asking, so, she was a very fine musician. & she was always open and interested to hear the recordings that I would bring her (it was part of how I wooed her). However, this time, as the Vegh's LP played on her turntable, she suddenly began to squirm in her chair & look very uncomfortable, and within just a few minutes, she begged me to stop playing the LP. I asked her why? and she said that their ensemble was terrible--not at all together, and she couldn't stand to listen to it anymore. She couldn't believe they were professional musicians...

At a later time, I again played the Vegh Quartet for her, sneakily, without telling her who it was--this time one of their stereo Bartok LPs. She seemed to like that a little better. But her cat, who always sat right in front of the speakers--as it was a very musical cat, immediately left the room. Clearly, the cat, who was normally so content & relaxed to lie in front of the speakers, or sit within the middle of a live string quartet, didn't like Bartok or the Veghs.

After my Vegh/Beethoven 'wooing' fiasco, I remember asking a composer friend what he thought of the Vegh Quartet? and if he would recommend their Late Beethoven, and he replied, that the 1st violinist Sandor Vegh was too old, and no, he didn't recommend them. (Instead, he recommended the Alban Berg Quartet's studio recording, which had just come out on LP.) 

Much later, I bought the Vegh's earlier 1950s mono Beethoven recordings on CD, thinking that the younger group would be better. But I soon found out that the earlier mono recordings had the same 'loose' ensemble problems as the later recordings. Therefore, I assumed that was simply how the Veghs approached music. In other words, it wasn't because they were older players on the later recordings. I think of this every time I hear someone say that the Vegh's Beethoven cycle is more "rustic" than other groups. Well, I suppose that's another way of putting it.

The only time I ever saw my girlfriend get so irritated again, while listening to music, was when I played the Lindsay Quartet's Beethoven for her... Again, she asked me to please take it off the turntable in no uncertain terms. When I protested that the British critics had rated the Lindsays highly, she replied that the British critics needed to get their ears checked.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> If I compare the piece to a divertimento I don't mean that it is "loosely" structured or haphazard.


It sure sounds loosely structured and haphazard to me, more so than many 17th and 18th century suites.


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## Mandryka

Carmina Banana said:


> Just as the A theme and B theme had to work themselves within the confines of first movement, now the first and second movement need to sort out their differences within the confines of the piece as a whole.
> .


can you hear this in op 130?


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## StevehamNY

Clloydster said:


> Okay - I'm pretty sure it was a stereo recording - it was on the Naive label.
> 
> In which case I listened to two of those, and enjoyed both - but again, I think my preference was for the Smetana.


The 1952 Vegh recordings come in either this Haydn Society set or in this recent combined set (with the early Vegh Bartoks) that's actually an amazing deal for 10 CDs, but it's mono all the way:









The 1972-73 set, in stereo, was originally recorded by Valois, rereleased by Naive (twice):









Both are on Spotify (and probably other services) if you want to compare them.

And as I may have hinted at in my most recent post, if you see the stereo Vegh in a used CD store, buy it and let me know because I'll pay you double!

EDIT: Josquin, just saw your post after I finished this. Bring back any memories? (Although I realize the LP covers were a little different...)


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## Merl

OK, so it's my pick and I'm going with a biggie with around 70 recordings in the catalogue. Yes, it's finally time to address one of the elephants in the room. It's been coming for a while and seeing as it's one of my favourite quartets (if not my favourite), and I have a silly number of recordings of this quartet, I thought it was time to let *Janacek's String Quartet 2 'Intimate Letters'* loose.

Its a great quartet, as many of you know, and I'll post my feelings about ways of performing it soon but I have already done an extensive round-up this one which I completed a month ago. The link is below but you may just want to investigate yourself first and compare notes later. A 'certain' critic reckons that only the Czech ensembles can do this justice but he's talking through his backside (although a large number of Czech performances are at least very good and some are at the summit, tbf) as there are some killer non-Czech performances. So off you go! Here's the link to my preferred recordings followed by a explanation of the quartet that I nicked from elsewhere, online, but I thought it was pretty good and saved me writing lots about it.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3484-janacek-string-quartet-2-a.html

"_Leoš Janáček (1854-1928) composed his String Quartet No.2 in 1928 when he was around 74 years old. The string quartet was one of two string quartets commissioned by the Bohemian Quartet in 1923. Janáček subtitled his second string quartet "Love Letters" and then re-titled it "Intimate Letters" (referring to hundreds of letters that Janáček wrote over many years, expressing his love to a young, married woman named Kamila Stösslová). Janáček's wife Zdenka stated that Stösslová was unimpressed with Janáček and although Stösslová did not return Janáček's love and kept him at a distance for many years, the composer pursued her obsessively and relentlessly for over a decade and she was the inspiration for several of Janáček's works, including this quartet.

In his letters to Kamila, Janáček calls the String Quartet No. 2 his "first composition whose notes glow with all the dear things that we've experienced together. You stand behind every note, you, living, forceful, loving … but everything's still only longed for …" and described his second String Quartet as "beautiful, strange, unrestrained, inspired, a composition beyond all the usual conventions".

Although this quartet is structured in four movements, you will not hear the kinds of traditional forms that classical composers commonly used for their string quartets. Instead, the four movements could be compared to scenes in an opera, each telling a different story about Janáček's feelings for Kamila. There is continuous development of various rhythmic and melodic fragments of sound. Janáček begins each of his four movements with these tempo markings:

1. Andante (moderately slow, walking tempo)
2. Adagio (slow)
3. Moderato (moderate pace)
4. Allegro (lively and quickly)

However, the movements are difficult to distinguish by tempo markings alone, as Janáček changes tempos many times during each movement, for example:

1 Andante - Con moto - Allegro
2 Adagio - Vivace - Andante - Presto - Allegro - Vivo - Adagio
3 Moderato - Adagio - Allegro
4 Allegro - Andante - Con moto - Adagio - Tempo I

The form used within each of the four movements also does not follow conventional structure and development although the fourth movement could be described as a kind of sonata/rondo form that features two contrasting and recurring thematic motifs. The first motif is heard at the opening of the fourth movement and the second motif takes the form of a leaping, trilled note melodic fragment.

Throughout the quartet, Janáček may present a theme or theme fragment and then immediately interrupt its development with sudden exclamations of sound from other instruments. Janáček stated that the first movement depicted the impression he had when he first saw Kamila; the second movement depicted his experience seeing her over a year later; the third movement was intended to "dissolve into a vision that resembles your [Kamila's] image;" and the fourth movement was intended by Janáček to represent his great longing for Kamila and imagined fulfillment._"


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## Knorf

Great choice, Merl, this is one of my favorite quartets as well! And you're right that there are many great recordings available, by both Czech and non-Czech ensembles. 

But I'll leave it to you all to argue over those details.


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## Allegro Con Brio

A year and a half in and I think we can finally say we have covered all of the most famous string quartet composers! Its absence has been so conspicuous that I could have sworn there was a tacit agreement that nominating it would be taboo. But I’m certainly not complaining - it’s one of my favorites as well and Janáček is just such a composer of quality - his piano music, mass, and operas are just solid gold in my estimation; shame he wasn’t very prolific. Here’s the obligatory Trout recommendations:

1. Janáček Quartet (1963)
2. Smetana Quartet (1976)
3. Škampa Quartet (2001)
4. Talich Quartet (1985)
5. Pavel Haas Quartet (2007)
6. Hagen Quartet (1988)
7. Smetana Quartet (1965)
8. Pražák Quartet (1997)
9. Panocha Quartet (1995)
10. Mandelring Quartet (2009)


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## sbmonty

Outstanding choice! Looking forward to listening and learning.


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## StevehamNY

Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up buying new music.


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## SearsPoncho

Well, it's about time! I love the Talich Quartet recording. There's some thrilling music in this one, and it seems that there's almost always something outrageous going on. Nearly every bar is a big, impassioned moment.


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## Kreisler jr

Great choice! I had considered the Janacek as well when it had been my turn.

Back to op.130.
A main difference to suites is that they have usually alle movements in the same key. Divertimenti are not. The quartet follows a key pattern and there are probably relations between important secondary keys of the large outer movements and the whole.

Movements: B flat - B flat minor/major - D flat - G - E flat - B flat

main secondary keys for the 
first mvt.: G flat
Fugue: G flat and A flat
Rondo: F and A flat

This is a fairly wide compass of sometimes rather distant keys for Beethoven. op.127 and op.132 are more restricted/conventional (A flat =subdominant for the slow movement in op.127, F lydian and A major in op.132). 
It also almost completely avoids the most common secondary key, the dominant (F) and the major secondary keys of the outer movements do not appear in the middle movements.

So I'd guess it is supposed to be varied and colorful but not "random". But I am not sufficiently versed in harmony and stuff to further look into this aspect.


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## Merl

There's a few things I tend to look for in any performance of Janacek's 2nd. These are not _always_ dealbeakers if I don't hear them but make a big difference to my enjoyment of the quartet.

1st movement - the cello and viola. Their role often gets overlooked with the greater prominence of violins but Janacek clearly wanted them to convey his emotions in the opening movement. Key to any performance is huge passion carried by both. The viola role often reminds me of a heart fluttering.
2nd movement - this is an adagio that should sound loving and never at all slightly melancholic. The conversational elements need to be especially strong without the violins dominating too much. 
3rd movement - my favourite movement and the lynch pin of any great recording. There is a dealbreaker here in the anguished cry roughly 3 minutes in. If it doesn't sound like an impassioned cry and reminds me more of someone shouting at the ice-cream van to come back then I can happily ignore the rest.
4th - it must dance and skip with slavic charm. Its not necessary to be a slavic ensemble but just to recreate that folk-dance bounce is essential to rounding this incredible quartet off. Tempi is not the be all and end all here but very slow finales tend to lose momentum.

So the key for me is passion, technical excellence and a feeling of 'let's go for it'. The best recordings hit for the boundaries and tend to sound very spontaneous, the worst tightly controlled and stiff. It's a quartet made up of musical fragments bound together by Janacek's engaging rhythms. Over-do the drama and it can sound highly nuanced and artificial (eg. Dorics) underplay the passion and it sounds emotionless and dull (eg. ABQ). As I said, this is possibly my favourite SQ and I've listened to more recordings of it than I can shake a stick at. I hope y'all find a recording that resonates with you as much as my top choices have done over the years.


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## sbmonty

Just listening to the Škampa Quartet now. Very exciting account. The other two I own are the Pavel Haas and Jerusalem Quartets. They will get some play later today. Oddly I don't have the Tákacs. They are usually my first choice.


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## starthrower

I have only one recording of the Janacek quartets by the Schoenberg's paired with Szymanowski on Chandos and it's one of my favorite chamber music discs. The Schoenberg's have a beautiful sound and they tend to emphasize the poetic aspects in music with their graceful approach but sometimes they strike me as a bit too laid back on certain pieces. Merl's pick is a good opportunity to focus on Janacek No.2 alone and get to know it better. I took note of the blog list and I look forward to multiple listens of this quartet throughout the week. I'll definitely check out the Talichs, and a few others.


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## Merl

I adore both of Janacek's quartets but the 1st and 2nd are different beasts, even though they share some of Janacek's quirks of not following themes in the traditional ways and using 'interrupting' voices. The first is more of a wordless story, almost operatic in its conception, the 2nd far more emotional, fractured and intense.

I've read quite a bit about Janacek in the past and he seems a complicated, intense, fascinating, contrary and difficult man to get near - highly anti-authoritarian to his mentors yet demanding and uber-strict to his pupils. He loved women (as we know) and was, allegedly, an early supporter of women's rights and social justice . Many of his peers often mentioned his staccato-type speech, obsession with speech-melodies and volatile temper and say this affected much of his work. He hated Smetana's music and worshipped Dvorak. 

When I did my comparisons I tended to listen to the 1st and 3rd movements of the 2nd quartet quite intently as there's so much going on with the inner dialogue. Janacek's obsession with this younger woman must have seriously screwed him up as there's so much passion and inner-torment in the 2nd quartet. Without this obsession we wouldn't have this masterpiece to listen to today.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This quartet has one of the most fascinating backstories of any piece we’ve done. Unrequited love for a married woman 40 years his junior; passionate enough to (according to Wiki) model three characters in his operas off of her, devote the great Glagolitic Mass to her, and characterize the prominent viola part (originally viola d’amore, interestingly enough - I wonder what inspired him to use such an archaic instrument) in this quartet as the object of his affections. Is each movement a different “intimate letter?” Is the third movement really, as Milan Skampa suggests, a lullaby to “the son they never had?” I’d say this is almost as interesting as Dante/Beatrice and Clara/Robert in terms of artistic romances. This music is incredibly passionate; the perfect object for the “speech rhythms” which the composer perfected in all of his ouevre, and the folk idioms ooze a perfect sincerity. Would anyone be able to tell that this is a series of “love letters” otherwise? Maybe not, but at least we have a composer-designated nickname and story rather than the silly speculations which are often hoisted upon what is surely meant to be “pure music.”


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## starthrower

Here's one of those in depth lecture/performance videos akin the one I uploaded for Berg's Lyric Suite but this presentation includes healthy doses of humor which makes it highly enjoyable as well as informative.


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## SearsPoncho

If ever, ever, ever, ever, ever there was a quartet that needed Burbage's Friday summary, providing historical context and detailing the relationships, romances, and influences of all relevant parties, this is the one. Forget the Bat-signal; we need the Burbage-signal! Hope he reappears for this one. 

I agree with Merl's assessment that this is not a quartet for the timid or those preoccupied with impressing others with subtlety and nuance. I want a recording that goes for the gusto and never lets the foot off the pedal. I found that in the Talich recording, and the audio quality is excellent. 

By the way, Janacek's music is so unique that I can't ever imagine confusing his music with that of another composer. I'm not even sure how I would describe or classify it. It's interesting that whenever I look up a Janacek recording on Amazon, the additional recommendations they suggest are usually modern, and frequently atonal composers. Even the mighty Amazon hasn't figured him out. There's no composer I can think of who would provide an obvious reference point for comparative analysis. The only one thing I can think of, especially for this quartet, is Romantic Schoenberg. Imagine if the Schoenberg of the Verklarte Nacht never took that left turn and kept writing more extreme episodic, tone poem-like music of maximum emotionalism, without completing abandoning tonality, while increasing the level of outrageous expression and...nah! That doesn't really describe it either. 

Thanks, Merl! This is one of the jewels of the string quartet repertoire.


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## Knorf

SearsPoncho said:


> Imagine if the Schoenberg of the Verklarte Nacht [sic] never took that left turn and kept writing more extreme episodic, tone poem-like music of maximum emotionalism...while increasing the level of outrageous expression and...


But...that's exactly what Schoenberg _did_ do! No "left turn" was involved at all.



> ...without completing abandoning tonality...


Oh. Well, in fact he didn't _quite_ completely abandon it... This was an emergent consequence of the above...

But I do very much agree: Janáček is unique, inimitable.


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## Carmina Banana

Mandryka said:


> can you hear this in op 130?


(sorry for reviving Beethoven, but wanted to quickly answer this. Looking forward to Janacek)

Only in a loosey-goosey, philosophical way with no evidence to back up my claims.
Here is one way I might describe this:
The first movement has the hallmarks of being a large scale opening sonata movement. Except it is unsuccessful in establishing Bb major as it should (here is where I would include 50 pages of musical examples to prove my point, but let's skip that for now). The second movement, even for a fleeting scherzo type movement of Beethoven's is just too short and insubstantial to balance this first movement. And it shifted us to Bb minor. OK. As long we get right back to Bb major we'll be OK. What's this? Db major? It seems wrong, but it is a lovely, relatively uncomplicated gracious andante and we settle right in to this new key. Next, shocking change to the brighter key of G major and even more pleasant, easy-going maybe even banal dance tune. The way this movement is structured, it is possibly the most convincing in establishing its key. We have arrived at our new home and everything is so much fun and relaxing.
So far, the piece has had a journey from serious sonata to increasingly frivolous music in increasingly distant keys. 
I guess one could see this as establishing our second theme.
Then the cavatina comes along and, with its gravity and its gravitational pull seats us firmly in Eb major. A satisfying ending. But it can't be over because it is a slow movement and it is in the wrong key. So let's call this the end of the exposition. 
According to my scenario, we will need one heck of a development to get us back on track and erase the confusion about whether this is a serious sonata or some light-hearted dance pieces so the last movement is, of course, a fugue, the most serious of all music and, just like any self-respecting development, it goes through many harmonic and thematic confusion before finally taking us home to Bb major. Ironically, the ending seems neither serious nor completely satisfying. Maybe it was taintied by too much Alla Tedesca early on. Whatever happened to the triumphant endings of the middle period?

These are just my lazy impressions of this piece, not a summary of my dissertation. Idle speculation. But I feel like late Beethoven is often connected by its very unconnectedness. Both within movements and in the complete work.


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## starthrower

> Janacek's music is so unique that I can't ever imagine confusing his music with that of another composer. I'm not even sure how I would describe or classify it.


I'd say it's not classifiable. But Bruce Adolphe, in the presentation I uploaded, does a good job of explaining how Janacek constructs his pieces and musical phrases based on the endless variations of speech rhythms and inflections specifically within the constructs of his native Czech language. He spends 20 minutes on this before they even get in to the second quartet. And there's a balanced interweaving of aspects of the back story without getting too carried away with Janacek's obsessive one sided romantic fantasies. The music that it inspires is the main focus as it should be.


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## Knorf

Yes, many have accurately pin-pointed where the inspirations for Janáček's mature style came from. But it doesnt really closely resemble any of the music of his contemporaries, certainly not Bartók, nor anyone since, certainly not Martinů. Not Husa. Not anyone.

Hence the comments about "unclassifiable," "inimitable," and "unique."


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## Merl

Thanks for the YouTube video link, ST. I think it backed up all what I was saying but in real musical terms as opposed to my pathetic attempts to describe what is so astonishing about this piece. I always hear what the video calls "the moment the earth trembles" as a huge cry of love from Janacek but that's just my interpretation. Similarly, in the first movement, where the video suggests the fluttering is birds / nature I interpret that as the fluttering of intense Janacek's old heart. And yes, SP, I don't think there's any other way to play this than with intense passion. It's a love story. The gravity of that passion might be interpreted differently by different ensembles but if quartets don't go for broke in the 2nd half of 3rd movement it just doesn't work for me. I said a similar thing to Knorf earlier. One recording that really dissapointed me in this respect was the Alban Bergs, who are normally thoroughly dependable in repertoire but they just don't get it here. They weren't alone though and the New Zealand, Britten, Raphael, Vanbrugh, Amphion and Alkyona quartets did the same with a lack of passion. Others got the passion but lost the inner voices - the dialogue and there were some big names here - the Arcadia, Juilliard and Brodsky quartets. So when I did get down to my final recordings round-up it was easy to omit these, even though some were perfectly OK performances but this is not a quartet for OK performances.


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## Knorf

I stand by my statement elsewhere that the Juilliard String Quartet (which is _not_ an ensemble I'm typically much a fan of) made a Janáček recording that is much, much better than "OK."


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## starthrower

You bring up some good points, Merl. And I can see why a piece like this would send you to the listening woodshed in search of the most successful performances that convey all of these crucial aspects and nuances of Janacek's sound world and the passions expressed in his later works.

Adolphe quotes Janacek expounding on this music from one of his letters after he listens to the Moravian Quartet perform the 3rd movement. "Kamila, it will be beautiful, strange, unrestrained, inspired. A composition beyond all the usual conventions."


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## BlackAdderLXX

I'm embarrassed to say this but I not only don't have a recording of this, but I don't believe I've ever heard it. @Merl I just read your blog post (glad you're doing those btw) and think I'm going to get the Takacs since I really love their stuff. Looking forward to giving this one a go.


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## Merl

The thing I like most about Janacek's quartets is they're not like anyone else's. As much as I love Dvorak, Beethoven, Smetana, Mendelssohn, Schubert quartets, etc there's something about both of Janacek's quartets that gripped me from the start. As Knorf said they're totally unlike other composers. I remember playing the 2nd for the first time and I loved it from the off. That was 30 years ago and my love for it hasn't diminished. The lengthy listening spell prior to my round-up would probably have burned some out but I found it a wonderful labour of love, particularly finding some other fantastic recordings of this work. I must say that apart from a Dvorak's American this quartet has the most high quality recordings of any quartet I know (that includes DATM too). I'm looking forward to hearing what recordings resonate with you and why. I'm sure Jos will chip in with his comments soon and eagerly await his earnest views.

Edit: if you get the chance you have to hear the Smetana Quartet's 1976 Denon take on the Janacek. The final movement is taken at a blistering pace that no other quartet comes close to matching. Its nothing like their earlier 60s account and definitely makes you sit up and say "WTF"! Their later Supraphon remake is quite zippy too but not as quick as the Denon. I've linked both final movements below. The Denon is a definite marmite performance.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> If ever, ever, ever, ever, ever there was a quartet that needed Burbage's Friday summary, providing historical context and detailing the relationships, romances, and influences of all relevant parties, this is the one. Forget the Bat-signal; we need the Burbage-signal! Hope he reappears for this one.


Agreed on the Burbage-signal!


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## starthrower

I was surprised ol' burb didn't chime in on the Beethoven quartet. I figured he'd skip out on the Wollschleger! Just wanted to say I was admiring the table of contents link on the first page and it's a thing of beauty! Thanks again are in order to Steveham, Artrock, and whoever else contributed their efforts.


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## starthrower

It's been awful quiet here today. Intimate Letters is fast becoming one of my favorite string quartets! I've listened to my Schoenberg Chandos CD several times, the Vlach Quartet on Naxos, and a terrific live performance from the Cleveland Chamber Festival 2016. I don't know who these folks are or if they are a working quartet but I've listened to this one three times and I love it!






Also ordered the Takacs disc from Berkshire Record Outlet. I don't have a recording of the Smetana quartet so I'm really looking forward to listening to all three pieces when the CD arrives.


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## StevehamNY

^Totally agree with ST on how much this quartet is growing on me. It's always been one of those quartets that I recognized as one of the mainstays in the repertoire, but without taking the time to really focus on it. (So much music, so little listening time, I'm sure you know the drill.) 

Yet again, it's a testament to this forum and to the discipline of slowing down and getting to know one piece at a time.

So thank you Merl for this week, and to everyone for everything else that happens here!


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## Portamento

Great pick! Janáček is such a unique composer and this quartet never disappoints.

Any thoughts on the Belcea recording? I only own the Pavel Haas, but I'm liking this one quite a bit.


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## starthrower

StevehamNY said:


> ^Totally agree with ST on how much this quartet is growing on me. It's always been one of those quartets that I recognized as one of the mainstays in the repertoire, but without taking the time to really focus on it. (So much music, so little listening time, I'm sure you know the drill.)
> 
> Yet again, it's a testament to this forum and to the discipline of slowing down and getting to know one piece at a time.


I think maybe the lengthy playing time of CDs has contributed to the idea that we have to listen to everything on the disc at once. Like trying to get through a full book of Bach's WTC in one sitting just because we have the CDs. I know I've made this mistake with quartets. And there's no way to absorb 75 minutes of complex music all at once. It may not be a problem for younger listeners who don't buy CDs and just stream one piece at a time. So yeah, this thread is a good reason to do more focused listening and it's really getting me deeper into the string quartet genre. I plan to go back and listen to just the two Szymanowski quartets on my Chandos CD when it's time to give the Janacek a rest.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> ...... a terrific live performance from the Cleveland Chamber Festival 2016. I don't know who these folks are or if they are a working quartet but I've listened to this one three times and I love it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Chamberfest Cleveland is a yearly event organised between members of the Cleveland Orchestra and Calgary Philharmonic, including members of both plus a host of new and exciting student talent. There's a lot of a Chamberfest Cleveland performances on YouTube and most are good. Tbf there are a lot of these types of student / mature combo performances on YouTube of varying quality.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> Chamberfest Cleveland is a yearly event organised between members of the Cleveland Orchestra and Calgary Philharmonic, including members of both plus a host of new and exciting student talent.


The young guy on 1st violin is great! As is the violist. Speaking of festivals, I'm going to the Skaneatles Festival on the beautiful lake of the same name this Thursday night. Seeing the Dover Quartet playing Beethoven, Dvorak, and a new piece by Caroline Shaw. First concert since Sept 2019.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> The young guy on 1st violin is great! As is the violist. Speaking of festivals, I'm going to the Skaneatles Festival on the beautiful lake of the same name this Thursday night. Seeing the Dover Quartet playing Beethoven, Dvorak, and a new piece by Caroline Shaw. First concert since Sept 2019.


Can I come with you, ST? The Dovers are a fine quartet and obviously I love LVB and Dvorak sqs. Caroline Shaw is an added bonus. I nearly picked 'Entr'acte' as my SQ for this week (but it's a bit short).

PS. If you want a rugged Janacek recording try the Acies recording. It really does swing for the boundaries. I love it and rated it highly for my round-up. It's on Spotify and YouTube.


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## starthrower

I'm really looking forward to hearing the Dover quartet live. I wish the festival was doing their usual packed schedule of August concerts but they booked things rather light this summer for the obvious reasons.


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## Allegro Con Brio

starthrower said:


> The young guy on 1st violin is great! As is the violist. Speaking of festivals, I'm going to the Skaneatles Festival on the beautiful lake of the same name this Thursday night. Seeing the Dover Quartet playing Beethoven, Dvorak, and a new piece by Caroline Shaw. First concert since Sept 2019.


That sounds awesome! Have a great time. I wish there were concerts like that where I am (Minnesota) but they are mostly "pops" type things. However, in about a week I'll finally be heading off to on-campus college (yay!) and I will get plugged into what looks like a super great music program, with lots of opportunities to hear and do performances. For that reason my participation here may dwindle a bit, but I'll still be here to "run" the thread even if I don't post as much.

I've taken in three Janáček recordings so far, all from Czech ensembles. I started with the classic 1963 recording from the composer's namesake quartet, which earned top rec in Trout's list. You're instantly able to tell these players are deeply immersed in the music, delivering the rhythms and melodies with a tangy snap and bite that is just delightful, and the very sound of the instruments is significantly different than we are used to hearing. Well recorded, too, for the age. Rivaling them for earthy passion is the Smetana Quartet (on Denon, so I think that's the 1976 version?) They "dig in" a bit more and are more romantic, but that is not at all out of fitting with this most passionate music. The Pavel Haas doesn't have quite that distinctive Czech tone but they are fully in keeping with their illustrious predecessors, and this is another winner from one of my favorite current quartet ensembles. A bit more modernistic, emphasizing the jarring mood shifts, bringing out all the colorful and innovative sounds in this piece from the harmonics at the start to the hammering "car engine" like tremoli toward the end of the finale, with little touches of portamento here and there to sweeten the love music. Just wonderful.


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## starthrower

Sounds exciting, ACB! I'd love to be young again and get immersed in that environment. But fall is coming and our chamber music society will be hosting a number of concerts. I'm dying to get out and see some people and listen to live music again.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> PS. If you want a rugged Janacek recording try the Acies recording. It really does swing for the boundaries. I love it and rated it highly for my round-up. It's on Spotify and YouTube.


This Austrian quartet needs some recognition. I'm the first one to give their Janacek 2 a listen on YT. They have a great sound and are very nicely recorded. This work is so strong throughout but it feels like each movement is better than the last. Although it's almost a tie between the last two movements. But I love the Adagio as well. Here are the links for the Acies Quartett recording.


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## StevehamNY

^Agreed! Also streamable on Spotify and Amazon Music. (And I'm sure other services.)

I really loved hearing this version tonight!


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## SearsPoncho

ACB: Good luck in college! I think you can teach them a few things.

I'm also a fan of the Dover Quartet. I've seen them several times at a local chamber music festival. Oh, how I miss attending concerts. It's been a while...

As for the Janacek, the one section which absolutely sold me on the piece on 1st listen was the use of pizzicato near the end. It's so unexpected and unusual, however, it almost seems necessary to provide some sort of balance of timbre and emotional restraint, considering all the over-the-top, dense string writing and unabashed emotionalism and cantabile. Nevertheless, I believe it also introduces another element of fantasy which is almost surreal, and it puts a nice bow on the piece before the furious finish. It's one of my favorite pizzicato sections; heck, it might be #1


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> .....as for the Janacek, the one section which absolutely sold me on the piece on 1st listen was the use of pizzicato near the end. It's so unexpected and unusual, however, it almost seems necessary to provide some sort of balance of timbre and emotional restraint, considering all the over-the-top, dense string writing and unabashed emotionalism and cantabile. Nevertheless, I believe it also introduces another element of fantasy which is almost surreal, and it puts a nice bow on the piece before the furious finish. It's one of my favorite pizzicato sections; heck, it might be #1


Thats what I love about this quartet. It's full of rich ideas. Other quartets can be repetitive or may have one weaker movement. Janacek 2 doesn't have a weak movement and is packed with passion and creative ideas. As I said, I adore his 1st quartet too but the 2nd is an outstanding work of art. Btw, if you want to hear the quartet played as Janacek originally may have envisaged it, using the viola d'amore, then sample the Mandelring quartet's recording (they give accounts with both viola & viola d'amore). There is an interesting difference in sound and performance. The viola d'amore adds a fuller, softer, harmonic resonance to the recording and gives it a more 'antiquated' sound but the opening notes on violin are plucked and this does nothing for me and sounds a bit crap . I doubt you'll prefer it (I certainly don't) but the first movement in particular, sounds noticeably more historic, especially when playing sul ponticello.

Incidentally, the sul ponticello playing is a part of this quartet I particularly love. The best performances have a certain bucolic, creepy rasp to the sound that drags me in every time. Janacek uses this to great effect in the first quartet too. The biggest drawback to the Mandelring recording for me (viola version) is the bridge playing is very, very quiet (far too quiet for my tastes). Its a shame as its a fine recording and they do well elsewhere.


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## StevehamNY

My habit has been to listen to the weekly quartet once each day, usually the first thing I listen to in the late morning. If I find myself wanting badly to listen to it again in the evening, I know I've found something special, and that's certainly been the case this week!

No doubt this quartet is an original creation, but even more, I think it's what Flaubert would have called "violently original." And I don't think anyone would deny that the creator's hopeless obsession with a married woman 38 years his junior was a big part of what fueled this music's intensity. Like Dante writing the Divine Comedy for his Beatrice, it's a timeworn formula for frustrated chastity combined with feverish inspiration, with an unavoidable dash of madness baked into the mix. (Of course, that just makes the work all the more interesting and original!)

Anyway, before I keep going on like a pale imitation of our long-lost friend Burbage, here are a few album covers that I think best capture this week's brilliant valentine to a hopeless and slightly mad obsession:

































This last image, by the way, is Von Jawlensky's painting of Alexander Sakharoff, circa 1909. That's a whole interesting story of its own, a century before anyone even had the words to explain the concept of gender identity. I've seen this same image used on other album and book covers, and I can't help wondering if they all knew they were featuring a trans trailblazer! (Just an interesting note, and all props and respect to Sakharoff, who couldn't have had an easy life.)


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## StevehamNY

And then there were some other album covers that went in slightly different directions:








"Stand right in front of this shrubbery... No, back a little more... More... Just a little more..."








Number 11 in our ongoing series: "Musical Instrument Insurance Agents Suffering Heart Attacks"








When you're recording intensely intimate and personal music, I'm not sure this is the best shot to use.








Once again, the Talichs go for the understatement. Are those back-alley waste receptacles or discarded apiaries?


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## Merl

Thanks Steve. You just reminded me that I left that excellent Schumann Quartet account off my recommended list. Amended.


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## Malx

I have listened to a couple of recordings again this morning before putting down my thoughts.
Firstly an admission of sorts - when I first came across this work probably in the early '90s I was in the early days of my CM listening journey. I really didn't care for it, or with hindsight I didn't understand it. I had bought a recording from a second hand store for pennies listened to it a few times and handed it back to the same store. I believe it was on the Pickwick label.
I returned to the work about 4 or 5 years ago and have now four recordings on the shelves. I have listened to all four this week, I have decided not to sample others as I am trying extremely hard not to add any more.
The sound of the Alban Bergs recording lets them down in my view, it makes them sound extremely scratchy and it became a difficult listen for me. They may not have the emotional depth of the others but truth be told I was distracted by the sound.
The Schoenberg recording and performance on Chandos was better on both counts, maybe a little understated but nonetheless they seem to better understand the turmoil and emotion evident in the piece.
There are two that I can't seperate as being my favoured recordings: firstly the Talich's (2004) recording, I haven't heard either of their earlier recordings, this one has some similarilities to the Schoenbergs but they ramp it a notch or two which for me makes it stand out. Secondly the Pavel Haas recording, they are a bit more forward in portraying the emotional content and are fiery in the final Allegro an equally valid interpretation.
Others have covered the historical and emotional back story to the quartet I can add nothing of any importance in that regard. What I will say is having spent a fair bit of time with this one over the week is I have been missing out on a very fine work for a long time and as is usual my understanding of the piece has been enhanced immensely by the input of all posters.


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## Kreisler jr

I was not aware of a recording of the "new" Talich Quartet.
The one I have on Calliope from 1985 (Messerieur, Kvapil, Talich, Rattay) is comparably understated. I have not yet re-listened to it but I actually listened to most of my recordings of the Janacek quartets a few months ago and the Talich seemed beautiful and lyrical but bordering on the "harmless". I'd probably recommend them for those who find that some other ensembles overdo the "scratchy" spooky sul ponticello effects.


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## Malx

I sense I may be getting confused over the number times the Talichs have recorded this quartet. I am now of the belief that the recording I have on the 'la dolce volta' label is the same as the Calliope recording below.










This one has different personnel from the one Kreisler jr refers to in his post #3868 above - this Calliope disc has the same personnel as a Suraphon release so I am confused as to whether there are two or three recordings.
Not that its that important but if anyone can enlighten me I'd be delighted.


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## Kreisler jr

ASIN ‏: ‎ B00008DHS1 

is the Talich disc I have. Supposedly recorded 1985, the CD issue Calliope 2003.

I only know that the Mendelssohn quartets from the late 1990s are with completely new personnel. I don't know about the Supraphon Janacek, there might even be more than two recordings!


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## Merl

To clear up the Talich confusion, they have recorded the quartet 3 times.

Calliope - recorded 1985 (reissued on Calliope in 1988 & Dolce Vita in 2003)
Supraphon - recorded 1990/91
La Dolce Volta - recorded 2004 (a different recording to the original Calliope and paired with a 2005 Schulhoff) 

It's confusing as all 3 have slightly different timings but are remarkably similar in execution. I have 2 of these and listened to all 3 of them for my round-up. I gave them all equal very positive billing but I have a slight preference for the Supraphon recording as it has a little more bite than the others. The later LDV account is slightly better recorded than the other 2 but suffice to say if you like one you'll like them all
Hope that clears this up.


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## Kreisler jr

But the 1991 has probably the same personnel as 1985 while the 2004 must have the different ensemble with Jan Talich jr. on first violin?
I find the 1985 Talich quite nice but the nostalgic aspects clearly dominate vs. the more acerbic. Others I have listened to so far were the excellent Pavel Haas (which I admittedly bought for Haas) and the Skampa and both are certainly sharper in contrast and more modern sounding. (Another one even further in that direction is Artemis, as far as I recall.)


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## Malx

Merl said:


> To clear up the Talich confusion, they have recorded the quartet 3 times.
> 
> Calliope - recorded 1985 (reissued on Calliope in 1988 & Dolce Vita in 2003)
> Supraphon - recorded 1990/91
> Dolce Vita - recorded 2004 (a different recording to the original Calliope and paired with a 2005 Schulhoff)
> 
> It's confusing as all 3 have slightly different timings but are remarkably similar in execution. I have 2 of these and listened to all 3 of them for my round-up. I gave them all equal very positive billing but I have a slight preference for the Supraphon recording as it has a little more bite than the others. The later DV account is slightly better recorded than the other 2 but suffice to say if you like one you'll like them all
> Hope that clears this up.


.....Thanks.....

But.... the Calliope one I posted a pic of has the same personnel line up as the 2004 Dolce Volta so it must have been available on both labels or re-released in 2014 in the guise I have.

Anyway does it really matter that much - lets move on. I enjoyed the Talichs and the Pavel Haas as two equally valid ways of tackling the quartet.


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> But the 1991 has probably the same personnel as 1985 while the 2004 must have the different ensemble with Jan Talich jr. on first violin?


The 1985 Calliope and 1991 Supraphon do have the same line up. Here's the covers of them.


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## Merl

There's a stack of covers to all these recordings but, as I understand it, any recording on Calliope or LDV that includes Janacek's Overgrown Path is the 1985 recording. Any that include Schulhoff are the 2004 recording with the latest line up. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Other 1985 covers























2004 recording


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## Malx

And there was me thinking Steve was our covers guy!


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## Merl

The Calliope / Dolce Volta issue with the Talichs is frustrating. The Talich originally recorded for Supraphon in the early 80s but then switched to Calliope in a very productive period. Calliope issued their own discs initially but struggled financially for years and the Talichs made more recordings for Supraphon in the 90s. When Calliope were struggling badly in the early 2000s La Dolce Volta gained the rights to the majority of the Talich's Calliope back-catalogue. Calliope was bought out by French independents Indesens in 2011 who then took control of the few remaining Talich back-catalogue items. To make matters more confusing, the new Talich quartet signed up with La Dolce Volta in the early 2000s after a short spell with Supraphon. So you have some Talich recordings on Calliope, some on Supraphon and some on La Dolce Volta (not to mention a few on Collins Classics). Confused? You will be.

BTW, I expect an odd few Talich recordings to come via Phaia Music, a label focusing on the release of hidden and lost gems of classical music and audiophile recordings. They specialise in "recordings that have either been forgotten in the archives or that have been neglected by the recording industry for being too "niche" to be profitable." They are distributed by the ever-growing Naxos group. There are a few random Talich discs recorded for Praga and some obscure Czech labels that may yet see the light of day. Who knows? The last Talich release from Phaia was a 1989 Schubert Death and the Maiden that was originally on Calliope, then LDV.


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## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> And there was me thinking Steve was our covers guy!


I like seeing other people post covers! Makes me seem a little less off-the-books, if you know what I mean...

(But seriously, how many Talich covers does the world need?)


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I like seeing other people post covers! Makes me seem a little less off-the-books, if you know what I mean...
> 
> (But seriously, how many Talich covers does the world need?)


There's this extra Talich cover too, just in case theres not enough. Lol.


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## SearsPoncho

What's with all these seemingly random covers of quartets on beaches or looking too cool for school? I turned to a wise man for an explanation...


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> What's with all these seemingly random covers of quartets on beaches or looking too cool for school? I turned to a wise man for an explanation...


I blame the Emersons for starting it all in the SQs field.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> What's with all these seemingly random covers of quartets on beaches or looking too cool for school? I turned to a wise man for an explanation...


This is the video of the night! All of these covers can be traced to this one source!

Wait a minute... Unless it was...


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## Merl

With all the talk about the Talichs I've relegated their Calliope recording to a lower rank as their later accounts are much better, IMO.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I might have a couple more trifling thoughts on the Janáček to share tomorrow, but for now, just reminding *Knorf* that it's his turn this week! Current schedule:

Knorf
calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Knorf

Relax. I've decided not to choose Feldman String Quartet No. 2.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> Relax. I've decided not to choose Feldman String Quartet No. 2.


Awww, I was sooooooooo looking forward to that!


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## Merl

Another upgrade. I've moved the Acies recording from 'super impressive' up into my 'Sublime' list on my blog. I did say in the original review that it was growing more and more on me... Well it just grew a bit more! I just love its rugged intensity and the the recorded sound.


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## Carmina Banana

I have only dabbled in Janacek in the past, so I have really enjoyed getting to know this quartet. 
From my brief experiences playing Janacek, I would say he is one of those composers who notate things in a very precise and complicated way in order to sound natural and spontaneous. I have read some comments about the influence of his native language on the rhythms and phrasing of his instrumental music. Does anyone hear this in the string quartet? I realize most of us don't speak Czech, but I'm wondering if people hear a sense of dialogue. 
I love that Janacek's music has such an emotional sincerity to it. It is never about the technique or the system of composition, to my ears. 
I have heard several performances, but after Merl's description of the Acies Quartet, I gave them a listen and also really liked it. Beautiful sound and an interpretation that emphasizes the emotional flow of this amazing piece.


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## Enthusiast

Malx said:


> The sound of the Alban Bergs recording lets them down in my view, it makes them sound extremely scratchy and it became a difficult listen for me. They may not have the emotional depth of the others but truth be told I was distracted by the sound.


There has been no other mention of this recording and I had it low down in my list as no-one seemed pleased with it. But I've just listened to the ABQ recording that I have and found the sound pretty good. It's a live recording and an intense performance but I found the sound "full". I wonder if your copy might have been corrupted or perhaps a different recording?


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## starthrower

I didn't want to get burned out listening to this one too much so I gave it a rest after listening the the superb Acies Quartet recording, Takacs, Schoenberg, and the live performance from Cleveland. Great pick and recommendations, Merl!

I just found out that Janacek No.1 will be performed live here in October by the Ulysses Quartet so I'm looking forward to that. I'm disappointed to report that the Dover Quartet concert Thursday night turned out to be a miserable swelter fest. The venue billed as a "theater" we soon learned was an old junior high school with no a/c and it's been 90 degrees here all week. 400 people panting through face masks while the musicians wiped their sweaty brows between movements. Now I'm really looking forward to the fall concerts!


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## HenryPenfold

I've come late to this week's selection - and what a selection!

I'd quite forgotten how marvellous this work is. Easily the finest example of a string quartet outside of the 'big three' (Lvb, Bartok & DSCH).

I only have recordings by the Hagen Quartet and New Helsinki Quartet. I have confined my listening to the Hagen, due to competing demands on my time (Wagner!). The Hagen Quartet deliver an amazing performance and if I were only allowed to listen to their performance, I'd not be worried.

Although I've not read all the latest posts, I don't believe I've anything to add to what others have said!!!


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## Merl

I agree that the sound is fine to my ears on the ABQ, Enthusiast. I dont know about Malx, but for me the Alban Bergs really don't have a clue on this one (and I usually really like their performances). They don't seem to get the emotion right. Nothing wrong with them technically (we all know they are a superb quartet). I'm not on my own either. Other reviewers said similar things....

"... Janáček’s Second Quartet is one of those smoothed-out German performances you hear from time to time and they all sound, as here, generic and co-opted to manicured pastures." 
"... they are neither unappealing nor appalling, but neither do they quite get it right... they have a slashing attack, a ready grasp of form, a strong sense of tempo but the rhythms here sound just a bit offbeat, the textures a tad too heavy, the tone not ideal, and while this is a powerful performance it is not persuasive."

Even Hurwitz chips in in his Janacek round-up (and he loves the ABQ) , 
" ..... they're wrong idiomatically....it just doesn't sound right.... they don't understand where this music is going however well polished, however well finished the playing.."


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## Malx

Enthusiast said:


> There has been no other mention of this recording and I had it low down in my list as no-one seemed pleased with it. But I've just listened to the ABQ recording that I have and found the sound pretty good. It's a live recording and an intense performance but I found the sound "full". I wonder if your copy might have been corrupted or perhaps a different recording?


I have it in the 'Hommage' box and it is the live recording - if i'm honest it is more likely my ears/mind were corrupted than the disc. I only listened to it the once and on a day when I wasn't in the best fettle.
I will revisit it.


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## Enthusiast

^ (to post 3892) Interesting, Merl. The first review you quote makes me thinking I was listening to a different recording as what I heard was quite intense and not at all "manicured". I tend not to have feelings that there are right and wrong ways with a piece or that there are key aspects that must be done in a certain way. Obviously I balk at overly Romantic performances of Baroque music and that sort of thing and wouldn't like a piece that is evidently sad being played in a jaunty and merry way. But I set my boundaries for what can work quite wide. So I found I liked the ABQ recording even if it is "international" rather than idiomatic. As for reviews, I just saw that Presto quote the BBC Music Magazine as saying about a different issue of the same recording



> Live performances of the Janácek quartets, with a vehemence and rawness which seem try to the extreme emotions of the elderly composer. The Dvorák fill-up is lovely but irrelevant.


which fits with what I heard. Of course, I am more than happy to disagree with Hurwitz (indeed, it is almost obligatory!).


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## JohnP

HenryPenfold said:


> I've come late to this week's selection - and what a selection!
> 
> I'd quite forgotten how marvellous this work is. Easily the finest example of a string quartet outside of the 'big three' (Lvb, Bartok & DSCH).
> 
> I only have recordings by the Hagen Quartet and New Helsinki Quartet. I have confined my listening to the Hagen, due to competing demands on my time (Wagner!). The Hagen Quartet deliver an amazing performance and if I were only allowed to listen to their performance, I'd not be worried.
> 
> Although I've not read all the latest posts, I don't believe I've anything to add to what others have said!!!


I'm listening to this recording right now, via Spotify, and I come here and find this post! It is an amazing performance, though I'm not yet convinced I like it better than the Mandelring SQ, especially the version with viola d'amore. In the 1st Quartet, though, the Hagen get some truly frightening sounds. They aren't afraid to be dramatic, even ugly. Now I want to hear their Shostakovich. Some of that should be hair-raising.


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## HenryPenfold

JohnP said:


> I'm listening to this recording right now, via Spotify, and I come here and find this post! It is an amazing performance, though I'm not yet convinced I like it better than the Mandelring SQ, especially the version with viola d'amore. In the 1st Quartet, though, the Hagen get some truly frightening sounds. They aren't afraid to be dramatic, even ugly. Now I want to hear their Shostakovich. Some of that should be hair-raising.


Coincidences like that are actually common on here!

I have the Mandelring DSCH and I would recommend it strongly.


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## JohnP

I guess the coincidences aren't that uncommon for a reason--or two: we all share a common interest, and we feed off each others' posts. I got on a Janacek SQ kick because of earlier posts on this thread.

I've heard several DSCH Quartets by the Mandelring and am very impressed. I swear by the Pacifica set, but I'm going to buy the Mandelring's. Uh oh! I'm listening to the 3rd by the Hagen SQ, now, and I like it. Please, somebody tell me when to stop.


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## Knorf

Some final thoughts about Janáček.

I think for myself the insights that pointed me deepest into understanding Janáček started in the writing of Milan Kundera, the Czech author most famous for his novel _The Unbearable Lightness of Being_. Kundera is actually extremely knowledgeable about music, especially classical, referring to it often in his wonderful novels, and has written as well interesting and insightful essays about music throughout his career.

Some of the best comments about music can be found in his his book of interwoven essays entitled _Testaments Betrayed_ (1993). It's quite wonderful and wide-ranging, and even has a compelling chapter about the music of Igor Stravinsky. The chapter most pertinent to Janáček is the one entitled, "The Unloved Child of the Family." Aside from the Janáček interest specifically, it's a highly recommendable read as a whole.

By the time I read this book in translation in 1997, many of my thoughts about Janáček were fairly well established, but Kundera's words led to some new observations and also, critically, provided an authority for reinforcing my own opinions. And here some of them are.

Janáček was _not_ a Romantic composer. During the era he wrote all of his most important works, he was an early-20th c. modernist, through and through. He deplored the sweetened, glossed over, Romantic treatment of folk music, and in general disliked most features of the excesses of late-Romantic music. Janáček's greatest music offered a solution away from Romanticism. He sought a much more direct expressionism in his own inimitable style, one deliberately far removed from the plush sounds of the second half of the 19th century.

Kundera makes a very cogent point about Janáček's expressionism: "Although he never made the connection himself, Janáček is actually the only great composer to whom the term can be applied fully and in its literal sense: for him, everything is expression, and a note has no right to exist except as expression...every note (not only every motif, but every note of a motif) must have maximal expressive clarity...it is an enormously rich emotional range, a dizzingly tight, transitionless juxtaposition of tendernesss and brutality, fury and peace...Janáček's expression is not an exaggerated extension of Romantic sentimentality...[This] involves breaking away from Romantic music, from its spirit, from its hypertrophied sonorities (Janáček's economy of sound shocked everyone in its time), from its structure."

Conclusion: a successful Janáček performance must never, ever, try to smooth out the edges, and must play what Janáček actually wrote, in every detail to the extent practical, and not try to second-guess or downplay or even-out any of it. It is music with "unexpected juxtaposition of emotions" that should be jarring, even disturbing, to the listener. It is modern music.

The worst way to approach Janáček is as a provincial, nationalist composer. After all, what is nationalism but provincialism elevated to barbarity? That undersanding was Janáček's ethos, and frankly mine as well. Many people, especially small-minded commentators such as an unforgivably over-quoted one around here I could name, ironically make far too much of the origins of Janáček's motifs and melodies in the Czech language. That's just a starting point; it's Janáček 101. If you wish to grasp his music, you _must_ move past it. (The small-minded of course cannot; mistrust their every word.)

But the immediately obvious conclusion is that any nonsense about only Czech-speaking musicians being able to "properly interpret" Janáček is _complete and utter twaddle_.

This limiting of Janáček to a mere provincial composer, one only interpretable by Czech musicians, does great harm to the composer: it infantilizes him and his music, and indeed his whole culture. It also inhibits the possibility of more widespread appreciation and acceptance. And it limits the fair evaluation of performances great and small of Janáček's music away from Czech-speaking ensembles. It limits Janáček in a way that is totally unfair to his greatness as a composer. (It is interesting that Janáček's widespread acceptance and appreciation in Czech lands languished until long after he had died and his music was already being performed far, far more often in the west...)

Kundera writes, "Secluded behind their inaccessible languages, the small European nations (their life, their history, their culture) are very ill known; people think, naturally enough, that this is the principal handicap to international recognition of their art. But it is the reverse: what handicaps their art is that everything and everyone (critics, historians, compatriots as well as foreigners) hook the art onto the great national family portrait photo, and will not let it get away."

Yes, the Czech language itself fundamentally inspired Janáček's sense of motif and melody, and that's worth knowing, but in the end the music can only be successful to the degree it is true to the pure, musically-based logic that follows from those motifs and melodies (and the distinctiveness Janáček brings these that is unlike any of his compatriots before or since), in other words to the degree that the music and musical structure is _universal_. Otherwise Janáček is nothing more than a quirky cataloguer of puny little folk tunes, a marginal figure at best. There are many of those.

It is clear that Janáček's music is so much more.


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## Merl

^ Great Post, Knorf. Beautifully articulated.


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## Josquin13

Goodness, how do I follow Knorf's excellent post....

Merl,

Sorry to disappoint you, but I ONLY own three recordings of the Janacek SQs--by the Smetana Quartet on Denon, and two recent recordings from the new Talich Quartet on La Dolce Vita, and the Merel Quartet. However, all three performances are very good, in my estimation, & especially the Czech ones, so I'm content with what I have. The Merels shouldn't be underestimated. It was their debut recording, & made around the time that Alfred Brendel said he considered them to be one the finest quartets in the world. I find their response to Janacek's score very sensitive, honest, & musical, even though they may not sound quite as Slavic as the Smetana & Talich Quartets. I thought they were very insightful.

As for my thoughts on re-listening to Janacek's "Intimate Letters" this week, I find it a curiously manic-depressive work. After all, the music isn't the result of a blossoming 'romantic' love affair that was ever requited or consummated--despite that Janacek wrote almost 730 (unanswered?) letters to Kamila, but rather it's an effusive, unrequited, & illicit love (or passion) that served as Janacek's inspiration. So, Robert & Clara it isn't. Rather it's more in the direction of Brahms & Clara, but without the young Brahms' 'sturm und drang' dose of romanticism, and therefore more unsettling, & certainly more modernist. In other words, it is a tormented love, no matter how deep Janacek's feelings may have been for Kamila. (Do we know what she thought of him? because if a composer were to write 730 emails today, we might call that 'stalking'...)

So, naturally, I like the quartets that opt for a faster, more frenetic tempi in the 4th movement, like the Smetana Quartet (on Denon), and refrain from being too 'middle of the road' or restrained in their interpretations. (I listened to part of the ABQ's recording, and yes, they're pretty clueless. But a great quartet ...) As others have pointed out, this isn't temperate music. & I think it should sound manic and not entirely comfortable at times. I certainly hear an edge, and at times find subtle glimpses of turmoil and frustration and depression lurking beneath the surface, even if they are linked to some impassioned yearning on the composer's part, there is a sense of futility.

As for Janacek's influences, apart from whatever Slavic or Moravian folk influences there may or may not be in this quartet (which I know little about), I basically agree that it is a unique, early modernist work, both in style & content; however, I do hear what is, for me, possibly a French or Belgian influence in the 2nd Adagio movement, along with a tinge of Dvorak. I want to say Debussy, but it's maybe a bit more Belgian. I wonder, did Janacek spend any time in Paris, like so many of the composers of his day? EDIT: To answer my own question, no, he mostly studied in Leipzig & Vienna, but wanted to study with Saint-Saens in Paris, however, he was denied a studentship! So, apparently Janacek had a strong interest in French music, but it wasn't a part of his formal studies. Interesting. I wonder, is there any French influence in Janacek's other works? (maybe stemming from Saint-Saens?). I know his solo piano music best, and don't think of it as being especially French in character (although most composers of Janacek's era were at least partly influenced by Debussy...).

I did listen to the Acies Quartet's performance on Gramola, and thought it was a fantastic performance!!, and recorded in brilliant sound. Thanks for the suggestion & links, Starthrower! (Now I'm no longer content with the three recordings that I own...) I noticed that their performance didn't sound at all French in the 2nd movement, and actually I found it edgy in all four movements. Their interpretation seemed like an accurate & perceptive portrait of Janacek's apparent state of mind in relation to Kamila. Is the third movement really a "lullaby" for the child that he & Kamila never had?? That strikes me as a bit unhinged, if Milan Skampa is right. The movement doesn't sound like a lullaby... not the way the Acies play it.

Anyway, the quartet was great choice for this week, Merl, thanks!!


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## Knorf

I have the privilege of selecting next week's string quartet (15-21 August), and have chosen:

*Arnold Schönberg: String Quartet No. 2 in F-sharp minor, Op. 10* (1907-08)

This string quartet, Schönberg's third in fact though he assigned it No. 2, is notable for including a soprano in the third and fourth movements, with settings of two poems by Stefan George. It might be the first⁠-very well could be at least the first famous⁠-string quartet to include voice.

It is also notable in that it was dedicated to Schönberg's first wife, Mathilde, and composed during a time when she was having an affair (known to Arnold) with their friend and neighbor, artist Richard Gerstl. In the second movement, Schönberg quotes the Viennese folk song, "Oh, dear Augustin, it's all over..." Referring to...what? Fear that the marriage was over? That the needs of music are passing through and beyond the boundaries of conventional understanding?

And finally it's certainly notable for the way the music seems to float away from tonality in the fourth movement. Most of the quartet is conventionally tonal and based in tertian harmony, albeit very chromatic, until the third movement. After the tonally unhinged yet sublime, unsettling introduction to the fourth movement, the soprano sings the text, "I feel air from another planet..." and for me this is one of the greatest moments of frisson I have experienced listening to any string quartet, ever.

Schönberg wrote, "I was inspired by poems of Stefan George...and, surprisingly, without any expectation on my part, these songs showed a style quite different from everything I had written before....New sounds were produced, a new kind of melody appeared, a new approach to expression of moods and characters was discovered." The needs of music are indeed passing through and beyond the boundaries of convention, whether one likes it or not. It's an incredible moment in the piece, and in music history.

Because this is Schönberg, there's of course even more to discover in this piece than just those observations, worthy of discussion though they are. But I don't want to spoil things. I hope this piece spurs some discussion.

This is one of my favorite string quartets of all time, and one I never, ever grow tired of.

(N.B. spelling Schönberg as "Schoenberg" is perfectly acceptable, and in fact was the spelling Schönberg himself preferred in English, having emigrated to the United States in 1933 after fleeing Nazi Germany. I just like umlauts.)


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## Malx

Nice choice, I only have the LaSalle Quartet recording but I'm sure there will others to stream.


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## HenryPenfold

Thanks so much to Knorf & Josquin13 for posts # 3898 & 3900 :tiphat:


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> I have the privilege of selecting next week's string quartet (15-21 August), and have chosen:
> 
> *Arnold Schönberg: String Quartet No. 2 in F-sharp minor, Op. 10* (1907-08)
> 
> This string quartet, Schönberg's third in fact though he assigned it No. 2, is notable for including a soprano in the third and fourth movements, with settings of two poems by Stefan George. It might be the first⁠-very well could be at least the first famous⁠-string quartet to include voice.
> 
> It is also notable in that it was dedicated to Schönberg's first wife, Mathilde, and composed during a time when she was having an affair (known to Arnold) with their friend and neighbor, artist Richard Gerstl. In the second movement, Schönberg quotes the Viennese folk song, "Oh, dear Augustin, it's all over..." Referring to...what? Fear that the marriage was over? That the needs of music are passing through and beyond the boundaries of conventional understanding?
> 
> And finally it's certainly notable for the way the music seems to float away from tonality in the fourth movement. Most of the quartet is conventionally tonal and based in tertian harmony, albeit very chromatic, until the third movement. After the tonally unhinged yet sublime, unsettling introduction to the fourth movement, the soprano sings the text, "I feel air from another planet..." and for me this is one of the greatest moments of frisson I have experienced listening to any string quartet, ever.
> 
> Schönberg wrote, "I was inspired by poems of Stefan George...and, surprisingly, without any expectation on my part, these songs showed a style quite different from everything I had written before....New sounds were produced, a new kind of melody appeared, a new approach to expression of moods and characters was discovered." The needs of music are indeed passing through and beyond the boundaries of convention, whether one likes it or not. It's an incredible moment in the piece, and in music history.
> 
> Because this is Schönberg, there's of course even more to discover in this piece than just those observations, worthy of discussion though they are. But I don't want to spoil things. I hope this piece spurs some discussion.
> 
> This is one of my favorite string quartets of all time, and one I never, ever grow tired of.
> 
> (N.B. spelling Schönberg as "Schoenberg" is perfectly acceptable, and in fact was the spelling Schönberg himself preferred in English, having emigrated to the United States in 1933 after fleeing Nazi Germany. I just like umlauts.)


The omelette is correct because he wrote the quartet around 1907/8 and only changed the German spelling of his name to the English way, after he moved to the US in the early mid 1930s. One needs to keep abreast of the chronology and lexicon, lest one ends up with egg on one's face ....


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## Allegro Con Brio

To wrap up "Intimate Letters" - a mostly futile task after the fantastic posts by Knorf and Josquin13 - one thing I was increasingly struck by with each listen was the highly rhapsodic nature of the music, which seems to be a general characteristic of this composer in keeping with the desire to capture the flow of conversation, which, after all, doesn't exactly follow sonata-form structures! This means that (at least for me), the music requires highly focused attention, because if you get distracted, there are few signposts to get you back into the flow. The performers can't sacrifice all sense of overarching structure, but they also need to nail the passionate spontaneity that is woven into the warp and woof of this music. I find that the second movement, in particular, can sound a bit rambling if not given a very creative performance. This work is packed with so many lovely details and each listen reveals new, delightful surprises hidden within the fine print of these "letters" - I find the finale to be the best in this regard. With my increasingly busy life I only had the chance to listen to two more recordings - Mandelring (including the version with the viola d'amore - interesting but ultimately Janáček totally made the right decision) and one of the myriad Talichs which I'm not even going to take the time to confirm:lol: I found Mandelring to be very muscular and powerful, with knockout recorded sound, but a bit prosaic and matter-of-fact; not capturing nearly enough poetry for my preference. The Talich, however, brings breathtaking security, creamy tone, songful phrasing, and irresistable impetus to their playing - the soaring, opulent first violin is just gorgeous, although it perhaps wrongly drowns out the important viola - and it is probably tied with the '63 Janáček recording as my favorite of the limited bunch I heard this week.

Yesterday I was in a used bookstore and I saw a book that was entirely devoted to the fascinatingly specific subject of Janáček's relationship with the writer Max Brod, who in turn was most famous as literary executor of Franz Kafka's works. I didn't pick it up because I already had too many books in my arms, but I thought it definitely looked worth a read:










Speaking of Kafka, this week's choice brings us, to my delight, into German Expressionism. Every time I listen to Schoenberg, he gets boosted a little higher up my list of favorite composers. I have not heard this one yet and look forward to immersing myself once more in his sultry, soul-searching, expressionistic idiom (I don't think the basic emotional language of his music changed between his early late-Romantic works and the atonal compositions; it was just a natural extension of the whole thread of German music since Wagner). This will be interesting because the soprano voice needs to be taken into consideration as well - can a subpar soloist make or break a recording?


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## Merl

Deleted..... ..... .. ....


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## Knorf

Your loss, Merl.


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## Malx

Before things move on - I listened again to the Alban Berg Janacek recording this morning and I will concede I was overly harsh regarding the sound quality of the recording in my previous post as I suggested it must have been my mood first time round (note to self - always listen to each recording more than once).
But I still don't think they get under the skin of the piece as well as the others I listened to.

ETA - I had listened to this recording twice before this morning - it really must have been a bad day earlier in the week, anyway on to Schönberg!


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## Kreisler jr

As someone who has suffered minor inconveniences when attending university in the US because of an umlaut in the last name (I think I ended up with ID, bank card and German passport all having slightly different spellings of my last name, o, oe and ö), I can attest that Schoenberg used to be acceptable even in Germany/Austria in former times for reasons of typesetting. I recall that at the time of typewriters (that usually had of course umlauts if produced for German speaking countries but there were exceptions) and especially early word processing in the 70s/80s "oe" and analogues were very common because the machines/programs could not do umlauts and they had been an accepted alternative in the 19th and early 20th century as well.


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## HenryPenfold

I've made an early start on this one. Listened to Diotima/Sandrine Piau last night, and LaSalle/Margaret Price this morning. As usual, I'll probably stick with the recordings in my collection, unless something compelling is identified during the week.

First thoughts: LaSalle always hit the spot and it seems they can hold their own against very good recent recordings .......


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## Enthusiast

The Janacek: What a great quartet! I suppose the story behind it is illuminating but in the end it is how the piece works as music that matters. In any case I wonder what the story - essentially an old man's obsession with a young woman - is actually about. I have listened to too many accounts - probably I _have _too many - and would hate to rank them or anything like that. In any case there are many accounts that are highly praised in this thread that I have not managed to hear.

I listened to the Pacifica, the Stamitz, the Belcea, the Medici and the Doric quartets and enjoyed them but came to feel that they were less distinctive than some of the others. I didn't greatly care for the Hagen Quartet's account this week as it seemed a little smooth. I enjoyed the Guarneri Quartet's recording but some of the passion sounded touched by anger. That's OK but might not fit the story. I found the Panocha Quartet's recording lovely and the Janacek Quartet's recording even better. The Jerusalem Quartet's account has hints of darkness, I think, and is a powerful reading to me. The Pavel Haas Quartet's recording is very musical, communicative and satisfying. I like it a lot. The Takacs Quartet seems to offer more - more variation in mood, more range - and the work comes over as bigger as a result. That leaves the Alban Berg Quartet's live reading which no contributors in this thread like very much, some feeling it fails to deliver an idiomatic and coherent account. I like its intensity. It doesn't quite fit the story as, for all its lyrical moments, it doesn't sound very intimate. I like it, though.

I am looking forward to spending some time with the second Schoenberg quartet. It is a work that I listened to quite a lot a few years ago but have not heard recently. I have already listened to the excellent Diotima disc.


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## Kreisler jr

I like the Janacek but as I said, I had listened to half a dozen recordings a few months ago and could not be bothered to do all of them again. So I listened to Talich 1985, Smetana 1985 (live Prague Spring), Skampa and Pavel Haas. Of these I think the last one was clearly the best. I should re-listen to the Skampa but I found this a bit cold, the Talich is good but a bit too lyrical, the live Smetana intense but problematic in sound and intonation (there are at least three, I also have the 1960s which is better, there is also a mid-1970s studio).
Of the Schoenberg I think I have only two recordings. LaSalle/Price and Leipziger/Oelze.


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## Mandryka

Which recorded performances of the Schoenberg are by quartets which may have had some input from the composer? Kolisch probably, what about Ramor? The first Juilliard?


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## Bwv 1080

Was out on vacation and tried to unplug last week, so missed the Janacek. Looking forward to getting to know S#2 better - have listened to it only a few times. Sorry to see that the Arditti recording - my favorite on #4 - has disappeared from the streaming services


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here's the textfor the vocal movements of the Schoenberg...


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## starthrower

I had a couple of aborted attempts at getting in to this piece over the weekend but I really got in to it today starting with the New Vienna Quartet recording from 1967. The YouTube upload includes the score and I got hitched right from the beginning with that simple violin motif in waltz time. The brisk scherzo is an exciting ride and I like the way it begins and ends with the percussive taps. I haven't listened this quartet more than a couple times in the past and I never actually read the text so thanks for the link, ACB. It's very heavy and emotional, and contains many striking poetic lines. I love the highly expressive vocals and I have to chuckle at Merl's description of it as warbling. It's much better than that! The last movement (The Rapture) begins mysteriously with the ascending line climbing from the cello up to the violins. And continues with brooding passages until the soprano reappears. The quartet ends in the humility and realization that man is merely a fleeting manifestation of the immensity of creation. And yet it's a satisfying resolution. Bravo, George and Schoenberg!






I also listened to the Lasalle recording which has better sound but I prefer soprano Evelyn Lear with the New Vienna Quartet. I guess I should dig out my own recordings and listen to this on some good speakers. I have the Schoenberg, and Asasello CDs. Here's brief video analysis with score I just discovered.


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## SearsPoncho

I found this one to be absolutely compelling! I was hanging on every note as if it was Mahler's 9th or Strauss' 4 Last Songs. I will try to elaborate more in a later post, including some comments about the vocals, but this was a pleasant surprise. Schoenberg sure gets some bad p.r. Those who make a living writing about classical music have a lot to answer for re: Schoenberg. This was not difficult at all. If you like Mahler, R. Strauss, or even Brahms, you should like this.


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> I found this one to be absolutely compelling! I was hanging on every note as if it was Mahler's 9th or Strauss' 4 Last Songs. I will try to elaborate more in a later post, including some comments about the vocals, but this was a pleasant surprise. Schoenberg sure gets some bad p.r. Those who make a living writing about classical music have a lot to answer for re: Schoenberg. This was not difficult at all. If you like Mahler, R. Strauss, or even Brahms, you should like this.


Some performances certainly do play it like that. It doesn't work for me as I don't much enjoy either Mahler or Strauss. IMO Arditti have a very attractive way with the quartet - spiritual and refined.

There's something about a lot of Schoenberg's music which I don't like, including most of this quartet. There's too much restlessness, a feeling of never ending energy and motion, too much tension, not enough release. It's not what I want.


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> IMO Arditti have a very attractive way with the quartet - spiritual and refined.
> 
> There's something about a lot of Schoenberg's music which I don't like, including most of this quartet. There's too much restlessness, a feeling of never ending energy and motion, too much tension, not enough release. It's not what I want.


I do plan on listening to the Arditti's and a couple of others before the end of the week. There is in fact a lot of tension and restlessness in much of Schoenberg's music and it's not a place I want to live all of the time. But when the mood strikes I find it riveting and fascinating to listen to for an hour or so. And due to his origins and place in time Schoenberg's music embodies both the richness of the European music tradition and the forward motion of a boundary pushing artist of the early 20th century. As a listener I'm naturally attracted to his music. My ears stood at attention the first time I heard it when an old friend played me his Dorati Vienna album on the Mercury label.


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## Bwv 1080

Really digging the Richter Ensemble recording from last year, great intonation and phrasing - you dont get the aimless wandering quality that comes through too many Schoenberg recording


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## Kreisler jr

I had heard the piece before but never thoroughly (I am still some distance from knowing it well) but I find the voice a bit distracting, or sometimes more than just a bit. It's a magical effect at the beginning of the last movement, but I don't like it so much in the 3rd movement and in any case it obviously cannot help sticking out among the strings.


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## SearsPoncho

I'm enjoying the New Vienna String Quartet more than the recording by the LaSalle Quartet. This is somewhat surprising considering the pedigree the LaSalle have in music from the Second Viennese School. There's greater clarity to the N.V.S.Q performance. I would encourage anyone who has difficulty with this music to listen to that performance.

As for the music, it's very dense, contrapuntal writing, which is why it reminded me of Brahms. I realize some might have a problem with that kind of music, after all, the Brahms quartets are hardly universally loved. Call me crazy ("You're crazy!"), but it doesn't sound too far removed from Brahms and Mahler. Perhaps if Mahler lived a little longer and wrote a string quartet, it would sound somewhat like this. 

I'm not sure if I fully appreciate the vocals in the last two movements. I think I need to just live with it longer. To be honest, I was disappointed when the soprano joined the party because I was enjoying the string music of the first two movements very much. I need to listen to it more, but doesn't the instrumental music convey what the vocals express without binding the listener to those exact words? It's also nice for the listener to have a slightly broader range of interpretation than the literal meaning of the words sung. This raises an issue I've always struggled with in classical music: the inclusion of vocals to provide a literal narrative to music which is already expressing something in a manner which words could never adequately communicate. What I usually do with vocals in classical music (e.g., Beethoven's 9th or Strauss' 4 Last Songs) is to read the lyrics once, get a general idea of the sentiment conveyed, and forget about it, as the music clearly fills in the blanks and takes me to places those often crude words could never do alone. I believe it was years before I read a translation of the Ode to Joy from the Finale of Beethoven's Ninth. Not only did my ignorance of the words fail to prevent my enjoyment of the Ninth, I think it enhanced it. I've been told by German speakers that English translations of Schiller are terrible, and maybe it has something to do with that, but I imagined something far greater than those words. The music conveyed something so grand that what I was hearing was well beyond the limitations of human language. Imagine my disappointment when I read the translation to the Finale of Mahler's 4th - such sublime, ethereal music, and THAT's what she's singing! Sometimes I do like classical or operatic vocals, and I couldn't imagine being without the magic of Gundula Janowitz in the Karajan/BPO recording of Strauss' 4 Last Songs or Kathleen Battle in the Finale of Mahler's 4th with Maazel and the VPO. The voice is an instrument and I can appreciate it as another instrument with its own unique timbre, without necessarily reading the words that are being sung. By the way, the most common excuse I've heard from people who are afraid to dip their toes in classical music is, surprise, they don't want to hear classical or operatic singing. Perhaps it has something to do with the huge crossover movement which took off in 1990 and frequently featured operatic, or faux-operatic singers. 

Anyhoo, I've gone far off the reservation here. I'm enjoying this work very much. Thank you, Knorf!


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## Bwv 1080

Schoenberg is just Brahms with wrong notes


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## Enthusiast

^ I know what you mean but I think he often sounds much more emotional than Brahms.


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## starthrower

First movement by the Arditti Quartet. You can find the rest up there and on Spotify.


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Schoenberg is just Brahms with wrong notes


I think you've confused Schoenberg and Reger.

But it is true that this particular quartet can be made to sound like all that sort of stuff -- Reger, Busoni or whatever. Not necessarily.


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## StevehamNY

When we did the Berg suite a few months ago, that was the first time a serial piece really clicked with me, and I've listened to it many times since. It's especially good late at night, when my critical filters are mostly down and I just can just drift away into its unique sound world. 

It's a synesthetic experience, where I have this sensation of "seeing" the different lines created by the different instruments. I've experienced it all my life when listening to solo piano, and in just the past year I've been able to expand that awareness into the string quartet, and at the risk of sounding melodramatic it's been nothing less than mind-blowing. (Just one more reason to be profoundly grateful for the oasis of this forum in a world that seems to be burning down every day.) This may be why a symphony is still just too much for me, by the way. Too much going on for me to "see" all at once.

(Wow, didn't mean to go all the way into that, but I'll leave it. Can anyone else relate to what I'm saying?)

ANYWAY, around the same time as Berg week, I tried listening to the Schoenberg quartets. I absolutely love the first quartet, with it's dark and foreboding, almost gothic opening theme that gets repeated throughout the work. It makes me feel like I should be watching an old black and white Frankenstein film, and I mean that in a good way.

I similarly enjoyed the second quartet just as much... Until I got to the vocal. No matter how much I knew it was coming, it still jarred the hell out of me. If it were a short story I was reading instead of a musical piece, I'd call it being torn out of the story. 

In my mind, I (quite unfairly) named the vocalist Mathilda and I pictured her (just as unfairly!) wearing the Viking horns and metal breastplate. That's a reflection of my own personal allergy to many Classical vocal pieces and nothing else, but I couldn't help picturing the entire audience reacting violently, like WTF, and storming out. (Which apparently is the true history of this quartet's first public performance? Or whatever "WTF" translates to in German?)

I went back to the quartet this week and really tried to set aside my visceral reaction to the vocal. It was literally the first time I made it to the end. And I'm glad I did. I think I appreciate the piece much more now. 

So thank you, Knorf, for giving me the chance to do that! 

(Not sure how many times I'll come back to it after this week, honestly, but no regrets in finally giving it a fair chance, on its own terms.)


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## Bwv 1080

Bwv 1080 said:


> Schoenberg is just Brahms with wrong notes


I actually dont believe this - there are no wrong notes in Schoenberg, but it was a dig by Boulez and more radical serialists


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> When we did the Berg suite a few months ago, that was the first time a serial piece really clicked with me, and I've listened to it many times since. It's especially good late at night, when my critical filters are mostly down and I just can just drift away into its unique sound world.
> 
> It's a synesthetic experience, where I have this sensation of "seeing" the different lines created by the different instruments. I've experienced it all my life when listening to solo piano, and in just the past year I've been able to expand that awareness into the string quartet, and at the risk of sounding melodramatic it's been nothing less than mind-blowing. (Just one more reason to be profoundly grateful for the oasis of this forum in a world that seems to be burning down every day.) This may be why a symphony is still just too much for me, by the way. Too much going on for me to "see" all at once.
> 
> (Wow, didn't mean to go all the way into that, but I'll leave it. Can anyone else relate to what I'm saying?)
> 
> ANYWAY, around the same time as Berg week, I tried listening to the Schoenberg quartets. I absolutely love the first quartet, with it's dark and foreboding, almost gothic opening theme that gets repeated throughout the work. It makes me feel like I should be watching an old black and white Frankenstein film, and I mean that in a good way.
> 
> I similarly enjoyed the second quartet just as much... Until I got to the vocal. No matter how much I knew it was coming, it still jarred the hell out of me. If it were a short story I was reading instead of a musical piece, I'd call it being torn out of the story.
> 
> In my mind, I (quite unfairly) named the vocalist Mathilda and I pictured her (just as unfairly!) wearing the Viking horns and metal breastplate. That's a reflection of my own personal allergy to many Classical vocal pieces and nothing else, but I couldn't help picturing the entire audience reacting violently, like WTF, and storming out. (Which apparently is the true history of this quartet's first public performance? Or whatever "WTF" translates to in German?)
> 
> I went back to the quartet this week and really tried to set aside my visceral reaction to the vocal. It was literally the first time I made it to the end. And I'm glad I did. I think I appreciate the piece much more now.
> 
> So thank you, Knopf, for giving me the chance to do that!
> 
> (Not sure how many times I'll come back to it after this week, honestly, but no regrets in finally giving it a fair chance, on its own terms.)


I listened to the Leipzigers with Christiane Oelze and I found her to come into the quartet quite naturally. This might seem odd, but I have a very hard time liking this quartet, which seems entirely a work of the brain despite the harrowing biographical circumstances. The voice adds a welcome dose of the heart. Therefore, the 3rd and 4th movements I like better than the first two. George has not aged well with his exalted tone but actually mixes well with this brainy music.


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## starthrower

I love the vocals! But I enjoy this style of expressive singing in the German language among the various Second Viennese compositions and lieder. Another great vocal performance can be found on Michael Gielen's string orchestra version in volume 8 of his box set series. Recorded in 1975 with the Frankfurt Radio symphony featuring the great Bulgarian soprano, Slavka Taskova.

So far I've listened to New Vienna, Arditti, Schoenberg, and Asasello, and I enjoyed all playing this great quartet. I didn't notice a huge difference other than slight variations in phrasing and tempo. My only objection is the way Dawn Upshaw's voice was recorded on the Arditti recording. Sounds like she's in a chamber or space with all hard surfaces so I didn't enjoy it for that reason.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I've been absent these past two weeks due to restricted listening times and, although absolute favourites of mine, I couldn't have contributed much with the past two quartets. This is too a favourite of mine. I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I'll always remember Bernstein sitting at a piano and _singing_ "Ich fühle Luft von anderen Planeten" and how poetically he linked it to that new music movement. And he wasn't only symbocally right, musically this quartet for me comes alive with that soprano, it's a beethovenian force, the same thing (in many ways) happens in the 9th. Everything is changed, and free atonality is unleashed, making everything much less grounded, it soars in some ways, it becomes ethereal in others. All achieving the same thing, imo, transcendence.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This is undoubtedly one of the most unusual string quartets in the repertoire, making it, of course, a natural pick for the thread. The discussion on Schoenberg's "Brahmsian" qualities is important because his music really is remarkably crafted on all fronts - highly expressive too, but well within formal constraints. At no point (at least to my understanding) did he ever set out to abolish traditional structures; on the contrary, he wanted to preserve them while expanding the harmonic vocabulary in what he saw as a service to Western music. (If I may be indulged in my predictable English major connection, the perfect parallel is James Joyce). The opening theme here sounds remarkably similar to something from a Brahms chamber work, but by the time we reach the end of that wispy, time-suspending, otherworldly, tonality-disintegrating finale; it seems like we started in a totally different world. I really love AAME's connection to Beethoven's 9th as that is very much the sensation I get as well. Beethoven used the human voice to catapult music into the heroic age; Wagner used it to bring Romanticism to its pinnacle and send us on a course toward Schoenberg, who lived up to the grand tradition in which he was working.

Still, this work requires a pretty significant share of patience, more than many listeners (especially those who aren't fans of the classical singing voice) might be willing to expend. It is really the definition of a "Marmite thing" (see, I've picked up a few British phrases from my pals across the pond in this thread!) Even for myself, a dedicatee of the human voice as the finest and most beautiful instrument, the vocal movements really require me to expend great reserves of concentration. It is slow, fragmented, isolated music; the opulent, soaring soprano line against the pointillistic canvas of the strings is foreshadowed as early as the first movement by the singing cello that stands out from the pack (in this way I don't find that the addition of the voice makes the piece sound as incongruous as a whole as I'd feared). Though I find myself moved by the sparse beauty of this combination and of the esoteric expressionist text, I just can't get past the perception that the work morphs into a song cycle and is no longer a true string quartet. But I think that's the point. Schoenberg is pushing conventions, as he always does, and the reaction he aims to draw is neither one of amused shock nor total expectedness. Is the appearance of the voice symbolic of some psychological, unconscious phenomenon that he thought matched his expressionist aesthetic or which mirrored his personal situation? I don't know, but I don't think it matters. In this quartet, Schoenberg at once apotheosizes and dismantles our dearly-loved vision of the traditional four-movement work in front of our ears, and by the time we reach the stunningly calm instrumental postlude, we know there is no turning back - music has entered its time of soul-searching, just in time for European civilization to enter its corresponding period.

Assessing recordings for this one is a bit of a bear because not only is the instrumental music tough to nail down (that second movement is really tough for me; I hate to say it but it sounds a bit..._random_), I think the soprano needs to be of a very specific voice type, and I prefer it if she is miked well into the mix and not way out front of the sound picture so that she emerges from the quartet rather than cutting them off. With that in mind...

*LaSalle* - The recording quality on this is just ideal - they are absolutely sitting in your listening room. The LaSalles are clearly inclined to bring out the swooning, late-Romantic, _Verklärte Nacht_, "let's make this sound like Brahms" qualities of the music, and for sheer luxurious pathos they're hard to beat. Margaret Price sings this thing like Strauss's Four Last Songs - she is miked way in front and has about the creamiest, most ravishing soprano sound you could ask for. Ear candy, but is this would Schoenberg would have liked to hear? I'm not so sure.

*Diotima* - This is literally about the most polar opposite from the LaSalles you could ask for. Spare, spiky, ascetic; almost to the point where they hesitate to play anything legato. It honestly sounds more like Lutoslawski, which emphasizes the forward-looking qualities, obviously, but again, I'm not sure Schoenberg would have wanted to hear it this way. Sandrine Piau, who I know as a fantastic Bach singer, is again miked too closely though I like her slim, silvery sound bringing real attention to the text - definitely close to my ideal voice for this.

*Petersen* - Here's the nice happy medium we've been looking for - nicely phrased but unafraid to bring out the tougher, thornier aspects as well. Christine Schäfer doesn't have the kind of vocal timbre I usually like - it is very peculiar - but I think she matches the Freudian, dream-like, "voice from the ether" that this music needs, and coupled with the Petersens' rapt, vibrato-less playing and her natural miking in the mix it's a memorable experience that gets under the skin.

*New Vienna*: This is a very urgent, unsentimental account - they press forward with lots of energy and they don't sound syrupy nor brusque but the attention to detail pays off. Their scherzo is easily the best of the four; they make it into the legitimately weird, neurotic, addicting piece that it should be. However, Evelyn Lear, with her plummy, matronly timbre and vibrato-afflicted delivery, has exactly the wrong idea for this music and this turns out to be fatal, even though I like the quicker tempi adopted for her movements.


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## StevehamNY

Chandos continues to impress with yet another pitch-perfect album cover. I dare you to find a better, more striking, more memorable, more representative cover than this one:









I didn't find many outrageously bad covers to complain about, so I'll just leave you with this reminder personally spotted on the NYC subway system:


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think this one is pretty amusing - "see, it's not so bad after all, folks!" Hey, if I were new to the music I might find myself more attracted by what I was hearing rather than one of those bleak abstract covers that are often on modern music albums. I think the "sweet morsels" concept applies more to Webern, though.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think this one is pretty amusing - "see, it's not so bad after all, folks!" Hey, if I were new to the music I might find myself more attracted by what I was hearing rather than one of those bleak abstract covers that are often on modern music albums. I think the "sweet morsels" concept applies more to Webern, though.


Well noted, ACB! Although I can't help thinking that certain parties might find the sweet morsels in this collection to contain an unusual surprise:


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## Malx

Here we have a quartet that requires the listener to accept a huge variation from the normal format. 
When I first heard this quartet a while back I wasn't sure about it - is it a string quartet or what? Having accepted that expecting everything to meet a standardised form is somewhat limiting I started to listen to the piece on its own terms. I have grown to enjoy it - but I have to say that I still think of it as being a work that stands slightly to the side of 'string quartet repertoire' (whatever that is).
I only have the LaSalle Quartet recording in my collection and I regard it as an easy way into the quartet - slightly well upholstered for a bit more comfort on the listeners part maybe. I have also listened to the Diotima, Petersen and Arditti quartets and frankly enjoyed them all. I suspect the beauty of a fine work is that slight differences of approach on the part of the performers is not critical provided they can convince in their execution. 
Overall I broadly concur with ACB's summary above but I do vary from Starthrower's thought about Dawn Upshaw on the Arditti recording, I thought it worked well.
I may listen to a couple more recordings if I feel up for it but having listened to the piece ten times in the last twenty four hours or so I currently feel like a wee bit of a change.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> Here we have a quartet that requires the listener to accept a huge variation from the normal format.
> .


Not as much as the first quartet! In this one the movements are short, the form is familiar.


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## Mandryka

There is an elephant in the room with this quartet. 

Why did he have the voice?


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> Not as much as the first quartet! In this one the movements are short, the form is familiar.


Fair point, I was really referring to the addition of a soprano.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> Fair point, I was really referring to the addition of a soprano.


I guess it stands to the quartet as Beethoven 9 stands to the symphony.


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> I guess it stands to the quartet as Beethoven 9 stands to the symphony.


True.
Or perhaps it should have been a quintet for string quartet and soprano - but we have it as a string quartet and if that is how it was designated by the composer then sobeit.


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## starthrower

> Overall I broadly concur with ACB's summary above but I do vary from Starthrower's thought about Dawn Upshaw on the Arditti recording, I thought it worked well.


I enjoyed the Arditti's performance which is unsentimental but retains some romantic qualities. Upshaw's vocal performance is powerful but didn't sound like it was recorded very sympathetically. Reading ACB's comments on the various interpretations I'm interested to listen to Diotima's austere approach out of curiosity. His description of the Petersen's account sounds like they got it just right so I'll have to give that one a listen as well.

Just as a side note, I gave Gielen's string orchestra recording a re-listen yesterday. I wasn't too crazy about it. It seemed rather overblown especially during the the brisk 2nd movement with a large string section sawing away at that tempo. The subtleties and nuances of an intimate quartet performance are lost in translation. The soprano has a very wide vibrato which I didn't really enjoy. Gielen said he performed the orchestra version to expose a larger audience to the work.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Mandryka said:


> I guess it stands to the quartet as Beethoven 9 stands to the symphony.


that's my whole point


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## Bwv 1080

As I think I mentioned before, Ferneyhough's 4th quartet is modeled on Schoenberg's 2nd, including the soprano


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> I guess it stands to the quartet as Beethoven 9 stands to the symphony.


Maybe Beethoven's 9th is just a string quartet with some extra instruments


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## starthrower

Per ACB:



> Petersen - Here's the nice happy medium we've been looking for - nicely phrased but unafraid to bring out the tougher, thornier aspects as well. Christine Schäfer doesn't have the kind of vocal timbre I usually like - it is very peculiar - but I think she matches the Freudian, dream-like, "voice from the ether" that this music needs, and coupled with the Petersens' rapt, vibrato-less playing and her natural miking in the mix it's a memorable experience that gets under the skin.


It's been raining here for three days so I've had plenty of time to listen to more recordings. So glad you mentioned this one! I'd forgotten about the Petersen's even though I'd been listening to their Krenek quartet recordings on Capriccio a few years ago. I'd hoped for a complete cycle which never materialized. Anyway, their Schoenberg No.2 blew me away! It's beautifully recorded and they're phrasing, poetry, attack, drama, and committed playing really knocked me out! As did Christine Shafer's vocal performance. A very exciting account that exudes great confidence and good taste!


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> As I think I mentioned before, Ferneyhough's 4th quartet is modeled on Schoenberg's 2nd, including the soprano


Is there any other relation to the Schoenberg, I mean other than that there's a soprano in there? And that it's got a string quartet?


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Is there any other relation to the Schoenberg, I mean other than that there's a soprano in there? And that it's got a string quartet?


I think thats basically it - no quotations that I am aware of

https://www.allmusic.com/composition/string-quartet-no-4-for-string-quartet-soprano-mc0002435268



> Fourth String Quartet (1989-90) contains within it a reaction to and consideration of an existing musical work. The work in question is again by Schoenberg, his String Quartet No. 2, Opus 10. Like Schoenberg's piece, Ferneyhough's Fourth includes two movements with soprano; the text is part of Ezra Pound's Canto LXXII and Jackson McLow's gloss on the same Canto. Like Schoenberg, Pound, and McLow, Ferneyhough's concern is with the nature of language and the use of (practical) language as an experiment in expressive purpose, and the possibility of the "mutual illumination" of the music and text. The dialog between different movements or between the quartet and the voice seems to be a discussion between the archetypal-traditional and the philosophical-speculative. That is, relative straightforward motivic presentation and development using distinct gestures in the first movement contrasts with sections of virtually static and hermetic music, like a kind of chorale, in the second, in which the voice is grafted onto a pre-existing form. The third movement (for strings alone) is again lively and involved, the four instruments examining in turn or together a melodically constrained, skittering, scale-based gesture; in some ways the movement seems to be a struggle for primacy among the parts. The fourth movement begins with similarly active material, which is taken up and transformed but which remains aggressive. The soprano in this movement is virtually independent; the voice and quartet parts overlap only by some thirty seconds before the soprano continues alone, developing eventually three levels of virtual counterpoint with quick shifts in linguistic stance, vocal register, and articulation. The strings return only for the very end of the movement.


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## Burbage

It's Friday, and I'm back.

I've not been entirely away, to be honest, and found time to listen to both the Ferneyhough and Beethoven, but not enough to find anything of interest in the former or do justice to the latter and when you've nothing to say, it's best to say nothing. Though that, as some of the subjects of this thread inventively remind us from time to time, that's far from a universally-acknowledged truth.

Schoenberg is a different kettle of fish. At least, this Schoenberg is. Naxos' notewriter for their release, Robert Craft, strongly suggests that Schoenberg's approach was tantamount to chaotic. He started well, with a first movement (still the first movement) in March 1907, and then gave up. Then, in the summer of 1908, he churned out a movement for soprano quintet, quickly invented a scherzo for string quartet, and then continued, for another six weeks, to write a second quintet movement to act as the fourth for the quartet.

The reason for this discombobulated approach (and Schoenberg's forgetting to revise the title) seems to have been that Schoenberg's wife had taken up with a neighbouring painter who, realising he'd painted himself into a corner, painted himself out of the picture in presumable remorse for, in Robert Craft's words, "his flagitious* act". All of which seems to have happened between the first and third movements, and therefore preceded the second, before Webern, apparently, found the time (presumably not difficult, given his pieces hardly take any) to mediate an affectionate resolution. So, rather than spend very long scouring the musicological libraries of old Vienna, where my German would be no better than it ought, I'll hazard a guess that Schoenberg set the Litanei with the old first movement in mind, intending to create a four-movement work that might be seen as a token of forgiveness to his wife, to which it was later dedicated. Whether that was how it was intended, rather than was intended to be received, is a different matter. The poems of Stefan George are doubtless monumental, but it's a monumentalism of a very specific sort. The words writhe with the heroic self-pity that Wagner gifts his heroes, the sort that we now associate with the artists formerly known as legal counsel to the President, which, though powerful, appeals to an audience that could only be described as niche.

In Schoenberg's case, that niche seems to have been Schoenberg. Later, that would (IMO obvs) be his downfall but here, it's absolutely fine. This is a very personal work, done in a personal way. It's not a theoretical sermon or a conscious attempt to impose a new musicological order on colleagues and audiences. Instead it's exactly what music is for; it tells us something about the person who wrote it; it tells us what they feel and how they feel it. And the way it's done is the way of genius. I could listen to this all day.

That, as seems obvious to me, if not to everyone, is the genius of Wagner (excepting that Wagner takes all day to listen to) and, in this case, Schoenberg is doing a bit of a Wagner. He's being atonal, but not by ditching tonality so much as, to borrow another phrase, 'emancipating dissonance' by extending the chromaticisms of Franck and Liszt and, of course, Wagner. And, by doing that, he's communicating with audiences in a language that they understand, albeit in a strange dialect. To forge an analogy, he's not (yet) trying to fork composition, like the cryptocurrency grifters currently 'reinventing' finance but, when he did get round to it, his motives were, at least, honest.

And so with the fourth movement, which reaches for the extraterrestrial as readily as Bartok. And, more groundedly, that second, mordant, D minor scherzo which, though Craft doesn't mention it, includes a self-deprecating allusion to a tale of one who, plunged into a literal pit of despair, is rescued by his own music. The story, for those unfamiliar with it, is of Augustin, a popular Viennese bagpiper, who got drunk enough to fall asleep in a gutter. The next morning he finds that the municipal scavengers have mistaken him for a plague victim and chucked him into a burial pit from which he cannot escape. Not being dead, however, he sets to taking his bagpipes which, for reasons lost in the mists of time, cause passers-by to rally round and rescue him**.

It's that carefully-crafted gap in Schoenberg's armour that elevates this work above the merely Wagnerian, or even the Schoenbergian. Craft is doubtless right to point out that Schoenberg was capable of what he calls "acrobatic psychological processes" when it came to "the impregnability of his ego", and there's certainly something unsettlingly authoritarian about his later work. But this? This is a man.

And so, despite my general aversion to supernumerary sopranos, I am delighted to have revisited this piece. As with the the Beethoven and the Schubert and the Martinu, and countless others that we've not got round to, this is exactly why I keep listening and, if I'm honest, writing. It's reminded me that what makes a masterpiece isn't the medium or technique or the subject. It's not even the artist, so much as what the artist is willing to reveal of themselves. Great art isn't about universal truths - it's not done for an audience of gods, physical constants, interstellar aliens or those cheerless algorithmicists who weigh up grant applications. It's about people communicating with people in ways they can understand. That was Schoenberg's making, and later his frustration. But nobody's perfect.

_* Robert Craft is American, I gather, and the word may still be in use on that side of the pond. In Britainland, however, "flagitious" hasn't been used since 1854, when the Marquess of Westmeath reached for it in a complaint about murders on the floor of the House of Lords. By which I mean he complained in the House of Lords; the murders happened in Ireland. I also doubt that, in the Europe of the time, borrowing a neighbour's willing half was deemed more flagitious than wilfully uncoiling one's own mortality, but I'm willing to concede that point, given the Special Relationship needs all the help it can get right now._

_** A popular bagpiper might seem, in our philistine times, somewhat oxymoronic, but we can safely assume that any arrangement of this tale for accordion would be somewhat shorter._


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## Allegro Con Brio

Great to see you back, Burbage - you always get a "like" from me for your polemical thoughts.
Every time I read one of your posts, I can't help but think that you need to record them as mini-podcast episodes or lectures.

Our next two scheduled nominators have not been around in a while. *Calvinpv* and/or *newyorkconversation*, you still tracking along? If they don't show up (I'm sending PMs to them), would *Malx* be willing to step in by Sunday? Thanks!

calvinpv
newyorkconversation
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Enthusiast

I have always liked this work whenever I listened to it, but this week has given me the chance to get to know it more and appreciate what a masterpiece it is. I had a similar experience with Verklarte Nacht recently. I think I had been tending to accept rather than properly imbibe the earlier Schoenberg, perhaps dismissing it as merely early works of a composer who came into his own a little later. But in these works – especially this quartet, Verklarte Nacht, the first chamber symphony and Gurrelieder – we find a deeply inspired composer on the cusp of creating a new music that would become a major force and the language of countless great works of the 20th century. You can hear the world changing seismically. It can sound as if Schoenberg himself is not entirely sure where he is going but is still surefooted in giving us works that are coherent - what hard work that must have been! - and filled with alternately delightful and powerful ideas.

I haven’t heard many of the recordings that others have focused on. Of those I have heard I am perhaps more interested in what each approach tells me about the work than in comparing them to find a favourite. Still, I did find myself preferring some to others – although these are just “current preferences” rather than considered ingrained choices.

I don’t necessarily feel that the Romantic side to this music needs to be toned down but I am open to less overtly romantic approaches, too. I suppose the piece is so transitional that it needs both. Anyway, I am happy with the LaSalle recording and, indeed, the Borodin Quartet (which I may have preferred if the sound was a little better – not that it is unacceptable). I also have no issue with a singer suddenly appearing in a string quartet (although I get that there are only supposed to be four performers in a quartet), especially give the quality of the music and its response to the text that she can work with. The presence of a singer does mean that we need the right singer (for our tastes). And both the LaSalle (with the great Margaret Price) and the Borodins (with Lyudmila Belobragina) have singers who seem perfect … although again I might just give the edge to Belobragina, who perhaps responds to the text a little more strongly on a few occasions.

The Arditti are less Romantic. But I wonder: without the lushness of the LaSalle but without going a little further away from that approach, I wonder if they are not a little bland. I find it easier to imagine the LaSalle shocking the first audiences than the Arditti. But all this is just a matter of degrees and the Arditti recording is still a fine account of the work. But their singer, Dawn Upshaw, also seems to me to fail in delivering something that might have shocked. I think her voice is perhaps too gentle and smooth for the texts or the music. It’s a shame as the Arditti’s playing is especially persuasive in the last two movements. 

The Diotima Quartet are much more extreme in avoiding any high Romantic sound. They are a little more sleek and deliver a performance that is quite strikingly modern sounding. The later Schoenberg is recognisable here but they find many delightful moments. Their singer is Sandrine Piau, a soprano with lots of experience in Classical and Baroque music as well as with the French so-called impressionists. Her voice fits very well with the Diotima’s approach and, although the result is less passionate than others, it is very satisfying. 

Today I listened to the Juilliard (1950-2) recording for the first time. I liked it a lot, I liked the Juilliards flexibility - their tendency to change gear and to interpret moments perhaps more meaningfully than the others without sacrificing coherence (coherence which is after all partly associated with wandering, exploring and even seeming a little lost). Their use of the “Ach, du lieber Augustin” moment in the Sehr rasch (2nd) movement makes more of it than merely putting something rather facile into a rather lost world: they make it dreamy. Their singer, Uta Graf, is recessed a little and doesn’t at first sound like the equal of most of the others. But her singing becomes visceral in places and is very effective.

Usually by this stage I am ready for a rest from the work in question but I don't think I am quite finished with this one. There is so much in the music that I am not ready to move on.


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Great to see you back, Burbage - you always get a "like" from me for your polemical thoughts.
> Every time I read one of your posts, I can't help but think that you need to record them as mini-podcast episodes or lectures.
> 
> Our next two scheduled nominators have not been around in a while. *Calvinpv* and/or *newyorkconversation*, you still tracking along? If they don't show up (I'm sending PMs to them), *would Malx be willing to step in by Sunday?* Thanks!


Such short notice and I've nothing looked out to wear :lol: 
Joking aside if required I have a few I was considering so will be able to fill the breach.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I was happy with the Gringolts quartet on BIS the one time I heard it this week. I often can't say much about a performance right away, especially something other than classical guitar :guitar: Maybe not entirely true, just right now...All the early pieces by Schoenberg are wonderful, but I often overlook him in the musical universe...


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have received news that calvinpv is forthcoming, so Malx, no need to sweat it this week

P.S. Unrelated, but last night I got the chance to attend a small but wonderful recital at my college that featured some excellent Lieder singing and an absolutely superb performance (worthy of a recording) of Beethoven’s Violin Sonata No. 10. Seeing live music (especially chamber music) is such a special communicative experience, and I forgot just how lovely it could be


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## Carmina Banana

I am late to the party, as usual. I haven't had a chance to listen to many renditions of this piece, but I would like offer my thanks for bringing this quartet to my attention. 
It is good to be reminded that AS was just a romantic guy full of yearnings and angst and he just happened to be the one who outgrew tonality. I am listening to some of his actual 12-tone stuff and trying to make that connection. It is making more sense to me. 
As someone who has always loved vocal music, a singer with a string quartet is an added treat. Kind of like getting baseball cards AND bubble gum. What could be better?


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## calvinpv

Apologies for being absent the last few months -- I've been taking a break from TC and haven't listened to much music at all, in fact. I'm going to use this week as a springboard to get back into the swing of things.

So my choice for this next week is:

Helmut Lachenmann: *Reigen seliger Geister (Round Dance of the Blessed Spirits)*

Although _Reigen seliger Geister_ is perhaps the most well known of the three Lachenmann SQ's, for me it's probably been one of Lachenmann's most enigmatic works to get a handle on, which is partly why I'm presenting it, so that I can come to a better understanding. It lacks the direct, quasi-Romantic, expressivity of the third quartet _Grido_, and it's certainly not the raw industrial wasteland that is _Gran Torso_, with its incredibly dense counterpoint of incongruent sound types -- itself a sort of Romanic expressionism. But there's something rather classical about _Reigen seliger Geister_ with its sharp oppositions between certain aspects of noise; some examples (among others):

1. opposition between pizzicatos with their natural decay and what the video below calls "backward sounds" with their increasing resonance
2. opposition between artificially sustained noises and noises which have a natural course of development, the latter called "cadence sounds" [Kadenzklang] by Lachenmann because their sound envelopes have a built in cadential function towards resolution
3. opposition in the directionality of a playing technique from lower to higher pitch or vice versa (sometimes, you hear these opposites back-to-back)

On top of these oppositions, _Reigen seliger Geister_ even has what you might call thematic elements. I haven't gone through the entirety of Lachenmann's article on the quartet (posted below), but it's made clear that the first half of the piece is predominated by a "flautato" technique from which all other techniques derive. I'm interpreting "flautato" as a more general category of wispy, rustling flute-like sounds rather than the particular flautando over the fingerboard. But Lachenmann says the most basic form of it is a light bowing on the strings while the left hand holds down the strings in a "muting grip". And from this, a multitude of variations can be derived according to bow pressure, bowing direction, contact point, speed, dynamics, periodicity (what Lachenmann calls "trill-variants"), and the presence or absence of pitch.** The second half of the piece is, I would imagine, thematized around the pizzicato, although given how simple plucking a string is, Lachenmann's range of possible expression is probably more limited here. I personally prefer the first half of the piece a lot more.

But I think the strangest thing about _Reigen seliger Geister_ is its overall attitude to the string quartet ensemble as a whole. I don't know if it's just me, but whenever I hear a string quartet composition, I always imagine it as having an inferiority complex, if we were to personify it with human character traits. The string quartet, knowing it lacks the raw muscle of a string ensemble or orchestra, has to make up for its deficiency with virtuosity in each of the four instruments, whether through performance technique or through an abundance of musical formalities, and this overcompensation gives the quartet a larger than life bravado that dares the listener to take it as seriously as a symphony. However, _Reigen seliger Geister_ seems to be testing the waters as to how far you can push this overcompensating bravado into the background without it disappearing altogether. _Gran Torso_ and _Grido_ don't have this problem: I can hear four instruments undergoing tremendous exertion and stress with much dialogic interplay, even if I can't always articulate what that dialogue is about. But here, the listening ear is pushed to its limits, especially when all the flautato variants become so indistinct from one another.

**Never having played a string instrument before in my life (I learned the piano when I was younger), I would be very interested to hear from those who do how some of the gestures in the piece relate in their performative aspects. Meaning: do you hear patterns in the way bowing direction changes from one gesture to the next? Or patterns in bow pressure (I know that there's _not_ a 1-1 relationship between pressure and dynamics, meaning a loud sound can have light pressure and a quiet sound can have strong pressure)? Or patterns in contact points? etc. Because I know next to nothing about string instruments, it's very hard for me to imagine potential contrapuntal relationships happening in this dimension. But I believe they exist.

Below is a video by the composer Samuel Andreyev giving a broad overview of the work with an emphasis on the different sound categories involved:






And, if you're interested, here are all of Lachenmann's writings that have been translated into English. I've only read two of these in full, but it's clear that Lachenmann not only has a very firm grounding in broad aesthetic issues but also possesses an unwavering attitude about the purpose of art and music in society -- an attitude that may be very controversial to some:

Sound Types of New Music (1966, revised 1993)
The Beautiful in Music Today (1980)
Hearing is Defenseless without Listening: On Possibilities and Difficulties (1985)
Composing in the Shadow of Darmstadt (1987)
On Structuralism (1989)
Four Questions Regarding New Music Today (1992)
On my Second String Quartet (1994-1995)
Open Letter to Hans Werner Henze (1997)
Touched by Nono (1999)
Interview with Helmut Lachenmann (2015)


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## calvinpv

Here are four recordings. This is a very, very quiet work. I would recommend whatever means you have of amplifying the sound so that all the nuances and subtleties in the different noises come through.


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## Clloydster

Looks like an excellent week to listen to more Beethoven.


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## Mandryka

Clloydster said:


> Looks like an excellent week to listen to more Beethoven.


One thing which Lachenmann and Beethoven have in common is their view of what a composer is supposed to be and do. Lachenmann and Beethoven write down musical works for piano players, string quartets and symphony orchestras, which are basically a set of rails for the performers to follow. For me, that's a weakness of the two of them in fact, though I can hardly blame Beethoven!

I like Reigen seliger geister, the dance of happy spirits, for its fluidity and coherence, the music seems to move along in a very natural way. I have to say that I find it a bit long sometimes, after 15 minutes I've had enough, but I'm like that with all music - Mozart and Haydn as much as Lachenmann and Sciarrino. I like Arditti most. There's a recording which hasn't been mentioned by Diotima, if anyone wants it they can PM me.

Interesting reading Lachenmann's paper on Darmstadt, because so much of the music which excites me comes from 1980s Germany - for example Walter Zimmermann and the Stockhausen of this period.


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## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> One thing which Lachenmann and Beethoven have in common is their view of what a composer is supposed to be and do. Lachenmann and Beethoven write down musical works for piano players, string quartets and symphony orchestras, which are basically a set of rails for the performers to follow. For me, that's a weakness of the two of them in fact, though I can hardly blame Beethoven!
> 
> I like Reigen seliger geister, the dance of happy spirits, for its fluidity and coherence, the music seems to move along in a very natural way. I have to say that I find it a bit long sometimes, after 15 minutes I've had enough, but I'm like that with all music - Mozart and Haydn as much as Lachenmann and Sciarrino. I like Arditti most. There's a recording which hasn't been mentioned by Diotima, if anyone wants it they can PM me.
> 
> Interesting reading Lachenmann's paper on Darmstadt, because so much of the music which excites me comes from 1980s Germany - for example Walter Zimmermann and the Stockhausen of this period.


I've read somewhere recently that music from the 1980's onwards can be seen as a sort of "second modernism" (I think made popular by the composer Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf), where notions of experimentation, constructivism, cohesion/unity, historical necessity, renewal, and structure over affect (although affect doesn't disappear entirely, probably one of the few lasting features of postmodernism) return with a vengeance. I think there's something to this thesis, though I'm not sure I endorse it entirely. The eighties saw the first generation of computer-based electronic music. I'd say the eighties was the first decade where personal styles began to diverge wildly, each possessing their own internal consistency and rigor. And then with some of the stalwarts like Boulez, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Nono but also Rihm and Lachenmann and even someone like John Adams, you hear a revival of a sort of sleek, elegant, cosmopolitan, fast-paced modernistic style that wasn't entirely present in the seventies (yes, I'd say there something more modern-sounding in Nono's eighties works than in the crisis-ridden political works of the seventies, even while despair and hopelessness plagues his music from both decades).

I just found this short article by Mahnkopf on this idea. Might be worth checking out:
http://www.claussteffenmahnkopf.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Mahnkopf-Second-Modernity.pdf


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## Mandryka

calvinpv said:


> I've read somewhere recently that music from the 1980's onwards can be seen as a sort of "second modernism" (I think made popular by the composer Claus-Steffen Mahnkopf), where notions of experimentation, constructivism, cohesion/unity, historical necessity, renewal, and structure over affect (although affect doesn't disappear entirely, probably one of the few lasting features of postmodernism) return with a vengeance. I think there's something to this thesis, though I'm not sure I endorse it entirely. The eighties saw the first generation of computer-based electronic music. I'd say the eighties was the first decade where personal styles began to diverge wildly, each possessing their own internal consistency and rigor. And then with some of the stalwarts like Boulez, Stockhausen, Ligeti, Nono but also Rihm and Lachenmann and even someone like John Adams, you hear a revival of a sort of sleek, elegant, cosmopolitan, fast-paced modernistic style that wasn't entirely present in the seventies (yes, I'd say there something more modern-sounding in Nono's eighties works than in the crisis-ridden political works of the seventies, even while despair and hopelessness plagues his music from both decades).
> 
> I just found this short article by Mahnkopf on this idea. Might be worth checking out:
> http://www.claussteffenmahnkopf.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Mahnkopf-Second-Modernity.pdf


Thanks for the link. Two quick things. Mahnkopf says something at the end, and I suspect it's the key idea in the paper, but I just don't understand it, viz.



> Second modernity strives to create multi-perspectival, i.e., non-reductionistic works


I can see how that may be the case for a structured improvisation by Richard Barrett or a composition using graphic notation by Anthony Braxton, but how is it the case for the composed music that Mahnkopf himself writes, or Liza Lim or Chaya Czernowin or Mark André or . . . ? I must say, I see these composers as doing exactly the same thing as Ferneyhough or Lachenmann did, with different materials. When I said that Lachenmann understood the role of the composer in exactly the same way as Beethoven did, I meant they created reductionist, single perspective works. And I would have said the same for Mahnkopf! As far as I know there's basically only one way to create a score by Mahnkopf or Liza Lim or Chaya Czernowin, as there's basically only one way to create a score by Bach or Haydn.

And second, looking at his list of second modernist composers, some I know and some I don't, and I decided to explore Franklin Cox. I found this, I think it's really nice!


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## calvinpv

I know this isn't an easy SQ to get into. It's late for me right now, but tomorrow, I'm going to write up another post approaching the piece from a different perspective. What I'm _not_ going to do is write a post detailing the structure of the piece because

1. I'm not talented enough to figure it out in a timely fashion by the end of the week (plus, I don't own the score)
2. giving the form of the work won't mean anything to you guys if you can't even "get your foot in the door", so to speak, and understand the basic elements of listening to Lachenmann (and, after all, we listen to music first and foremost, not analyze). Lachenmann would even agree; if you read any of the articles of his I posted earlier, you'll discover that listening ("heightened awareness") as opposed to mere hearing is a distinction of paramount importance to him.

So I'll demystify the art of listening to his music, and I'll use the first 25 seconds or so of the piece to illustrate (the first 25 seconds forms a pretty self-contained musical phrase). Stay tuned!


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## starthrower

I made one attempt at listening to the Arditti recording but I couldn't sufficiently hear the quieter passages so I hope to give it another go with headphones. I'm doing the same with Jonathan Harvey's quartets.


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## Mandryka

Jonathan Impett’s book on Nono suggests that Nono was working on a second quartet which maybe he hoped to premier with Reigen seliger geister in Avignon Festival 1989. Nothing came of it because of the illness which caused his death the year after. The first recording of The Diotima Quartet pairs the Nono quartet (Stille - an Diotima) with this one by Lachenmann - and I think it’s an illuminating pairing. The two composers are clearly birds of a feather. 

Lachenmann went on to write a third quartet, Grido, which he also transcribed into a piece for string orchestra, called Double. And listening to Reigen seliger geister this evening I wondered whether a transcription of this quartet would be interesting. 

Cage famously said that Beethoven sent music on the wrong path by making everyone focus on harmony, while it’s duration which matters more. And the Lachenmann quartet sounds like it’s duration music - I mean you have a bit of one texture for a while and then another and then another, a collage of textures. Is any more structure audible to anyone? Not to me! 

The Diotima Quartet recording divides the music into 12 tracks, maybe that is based on something in the score. I wonder whether I’d lose anything if I set playback to random.


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## HenryPenfold

Thank you for this excellent post and the really captivating links ..............



calvinpv said:


> Apologies for being absent the last few months -- I've been taking a break from TC and haven't listened to much music at all, in fact. I'm going to use this week as a springboard to get back into the swing of things.
> 
> So my choice for this next week is:
> 
> Helmut Lachenmann: *Reigen seliger Geister (Round Dance of the Blessed Spirits)*
> 
> Although _Reigen seliger Geister_ is perhaps the most well known of the three Lachenmann SQ's, for me it's probably been one of Lachenmann's most enigmatic works to get a handle on, which is partly why I'm presenting it, so that I can come to a better understanding. It lacks the direct, quasi-Romantic, expressivity of the third quartet _Grido_, and it's certainly not the raw industrial wasteland that is _Gran Torso_, with its incredibly dense counterpoint of incongruent sound types -- itself a sort of Romanic expressionism. But there's something rather classical about _Reigen seliger Geister_ with its sharp oppositions between certain aspects of noise; some examples (among others):
> 
> 1. opposition between pizzicatos with their natural decay and what the video below calls "backward sounds" with their increasing resonance
> 2. opposition between artificially sustained noises and noises which have a natural course of development, the latter called "cadence sounds" [Kadenzklang] by Lachenmann because their sound envelopes have a built in cadential function towards resolution
> 3. opposition in the directionality of a playing technique from lower to higher pitch or vice versa (sometimes, you hear these opposites back-to-back)
> 
> On top of these oppositions, _Reigen seliger Geister_ even has what you might call thematic elements. I haven't gone through the entirety of Lachenmann's article on the quartet (posted below), but it's made clear that the first half of the piece is predominated by a "flautato" technique from which all other techniques derive. I'm interpreting "flautato" as a more general category of wispy, rustling flute-like sounds rather than the particular flautando over the fingerboard. But Lachenmann says the most basic form of it is a light bowing on the strings while the left hand holds down the strings in a "muting grip". And from this, a multitude of variations can be derived according to bow pressure, bowing direction, contact point, speed, dynamics, periodicity (what Lachenmann calls "trill-variants"), and the presence or absence of pitch.** The second half of the piece is, I would imagine, thematized around the pizzicato, although given how simple plucking a string is, Lachenmann's range of possible expression is probably more limited here. I personally prefer the first half of the piece a lot more.
> 
> But I think the strangest thing about _Reigen seliger Geister_ is its overall attitude to the string quartet ensemble as a whole. I don't know if it's just me, but whenever I hear a string quartet composition, I always imagine it as having an inferiority complex, if we were to personify it with human character traits. The string quartet, knowing it lacks the raw muscle of a string ensemble or orchestra, has to make up for its deficiency with virtuosity in each of the four instruments, whether through performance technique or through an abundance of musical formalities, and this overcompensation gives the quartet a larger than life bravado that dares the listener to take it as seriously as a symphony. However, _Reigen seliger Geister_ seems to be testing the waters as to how far you can push this overcompensating bravado into the background without it disappearing altogether. _Gran Torso_ and _Grido_ don't have this problem: I can hear four instruments undergoing tremendous exertion and stress with much dialogic interplay, even if I can't always articulate what that dialogue is about. But here, the listening ear is pushed to its limits, especially when all the flautato variants become so indistinct from one another.
> 
> **Never having played a string instrument before in my life (I learned the piano when I was younger), I would be very interested to hear from those who do how some of the gestures in the piece relate in their performative aspects. Meaning: do you hear patterns in the way bowing direction changes from one gesture to the next? Or patterns in bow pressure (I know that there's _not_ a 1-1 relationship between pressure and dynamics, meaning a loud sound can have light pressure and a quiet sound can have strong pressure)? Or patterns in contact points? etc. Because I know next to nothing about string instruments, it's very hard for me to imagine potential contrapuntal relationships happening in this dimension. But I believe they exist.
> 
> Below is a video by the composer Samuel Andreyev giving a broad overview of the work with an emphasis on the different sound categories involved:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, if you're interested, here are all of Lachenmann's writings that have been translated into English. I've only read two of these in full, but it's clear that Lachenmann not only has a very firm grounding in broad aesthetic issues but also possesses an unwavering attitude about the purpose of art and music in society -- an attitude that may be very controversial to some:
> 
> Sound Types of New Music (1966, revised 1993)
> The Beautiful in Music Today (1980)
> Hearing is Defenseless without Listening: On Possibilities and Difficulties (1985)
> Composing in the Shadow of Darmstadt (1987)
> On Structuralism (1989)
> Four Questions Regarding New Music Today (1992)
> On my Second String Quartet (1994-1995)
> Open Letter to Hans Werner Henze (1997)
> Touched by Nono (1999)
> Interview with Helmut Lachenmann (2015)


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Listening to the JACK quartet now. Would like this live, at least the way it starts. Sorry for being stupid after some informative posts here, but Lachenmann in Norwegian is pronounced like a hero of bed sheets ("Sheetman")

I found this on oxfordmusiconline which was interesting. Today I subscribed for 3 months again...

Lachenmann's principal aim in his development of musique concrète instrumentale was not merely to extend the repertory of available sounds along the lines of the discussions of the 1950s and 60s on the concept of musical material, or to shock the listener by the ‘alienation’ of the familiar sound of the instrument. Instead, the composer's intention was to explore a new sound world and to create compelling and logical musical works based predominantly on sonorities which had remained unused and hence uncontaminated in the past. The musical instrument, as the quintessence of its many sound-generating possibilities, is effectively reinvented in the process. Lachenmann has spoken of composition as equivalent to ‘building an instrument’, and this is as true of his attitude to solo instruments as it is to his approach to ensembles or orchestras. Serial ideas of order now become available for the musical exploitation of this newly discovered sound world. Lachenmann continued to work with abstract ‘structural networks’ and ‘temporal networks’, but they now had only a regulatory rather than a generative function.

...musique concrète instrumentale must be exactly what this quartet represents and confirms my feeling of seeing it live would give a better experience.


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## Mandryka

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Lachenmann's principal aim in his development of musique concrète instrumentale was not merely to extend the repertory of available sounds along the lines of the discussions of the 1950s and 60s on the concept of musical material, or to shock the listener by the 'alienation' of the familiar sound of the instrument. Instead, the composer's intention was to explore a new sound world and to create compelling and logical musical works based predominantly on sonorities which had remained unused and hence uncontaminated in the past. The musical instrument, as the quintessence of its many sound-generating possibilities, is effectively reinvented in the process. Lachenmann has spoken of composition as equivalent to 'building an instrument', and this is as true of his attitude to solo instruments as it is to his approach to ensembles or orchestras. Serial ideas of order now become available for the musical exploitation of this newly discovered sound world. Lachenmann continued to work with abstract 'structural networks' and 'temporal networks', but they now had only a regulatory rather than a generative function.


This is what he did in Gran Torso nearly 20 years before Reigen seliger geister. Has he really been stuck in the same groove for two decades? I hope not.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Mandryka said:


> This is what he did in Gran Torso nearly 20 years before Reigen seliger geister. Has he really been stuck in the same groove for two decades? I hope not.


It's only part of an article written 2001. To me it sounds like what the text describes


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## Knorf

Lachenmann is definitely better heard live. I'm not saying it's not worth trying at home, but setting up the proper listening environment for just a recording isn't entirely easy. You need very good earphones, a high quality recording (probably not YouTube* or an MP3), and quiet. Concentration is key, to catch all the critical nuances. It's worth it, I think, although I go back and forth a bit on Lachenmann. Certainly I can say I'm rather less than fond of his numerous imitators. 

*The source can be enabled to allow higher-quality playback, but it seems like hardly anyone does this.


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## starthrower

Knorf said:


> Lachenmann is definitely better heard live. I'm not saying it's not worth trying at home, but setting up the proper listening environment for just a recording isn't entirely easy. You need very good earphones, a high quality recording (probably not YouTube* or an MP3), and quiet. Concentration is key, to catch all the critical nuances. It's worth it, I think, although I go back and forth a bit on Lachenmann. Certainly I can say I'm rather less than fond of his numerous imitators.
> 
> *The source can be enabled to allow higher-quality playback, but it seems like hardly anyone does this.


It's the environment I crave for every listening session of an unfamiliar piece but it rarely happens these days. I'm not a single guy living in complete solitude anymore. And a Lachenmann quartet will never be performed in my town.


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## Mandryka

The clue is in the title. The trick with this quartet is to wait till you're home alone, clear away the furniture, close the curtains, put on the music and dance. This video will give you a start


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## Knorf

One thing's for sure: you should resist any temptation to "crank it" with this quartet, or any of Lachenmann's pieces that explore the rich, manifold possibilities of sounds just at the edge of audibility. This is meant to be quiet music. At least in the Arditti Quartet recording on Kairos, it's recorded at a relatively high gain, and if anything should be turned _down_ from where you'd listen to a string quartet normally.

The sounds are sometimes raw (but quiet) yet often absolutely exquisite. The blessed spirits of the title are just at the edge of perceptibility, weird yet sublime beyond description.


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## calvinpv

*How to Listen to Lachenmann (Part I): Philosophical/Aesthetic Considerations*

I apologize if this is long, but I tried to lay out in the most basic terms possible what it means to listen to Lachenmann's music and in fact, what it means to listen to music more generally. Describing in basic terms necessitates laying out every step in the listening process as if I'm laying out a formal argument (okay, it's still pretty informal, but you know what I mean). If philosophy is not your thing or if you think this is too much to read, skip to the next post.

I think one of the most groundbreaking, revolutionary things about Lachenmann's music - and it's an aspect of his music that's had a profound impact on my own listening habits - is its ability to give to give shape and structure to seemingly structure-less noise, structures _that are analogous to the forms and structures found in traditional classical music_.

What do I mean by this? Well, think about how those classical forms work on a general level. We often hear words thrown around like "sonata form", "rondo form", "ternary form", "cyclic form", as well as smaller formal units like "exposition", "development", "cadence", "variation", "period", "verse", "refrain", "coda", etc. But in addition to the fact that I can't always follow these pre-established forms when listening to a work that possesses them, I'm always uneasy about their usage because I think they give the false impression of them being more divergent in their meanings than they really are. As well as giving the false impression that deeper musical issues aren't at play when, in fact, they are always at play. When Lachenmann asks us to elevate our listening to a "heightened awareness", he is _not_ saying that we reject so-called "primitive" tonal music, with a so-called "primitive" mode of listening, in favor of avant-garde noise music. What Lachenmann is saying is that we have forgotten how to listen to music of _any_ kind, tonal or atonal, classical or non-classical, because we have forgotten the fundamental elements involved in structuring and shaping sound into music. Instead, we have lapsed into a surface appreciation of music according to how "pretty" or "evocative" a sound is irrespective of its musical function, or how a sound will evoke an emotional past experience in our personal lives. Lachenmann is not against traditional composers; Lachenmann is against traditional _listeners_.

Underlying all specific musical forms used throughout history are the following more general concerns:

1. *Concerns of identity:* Which aspects of a sound do we measure when we say a sound has a particular identity? How many of those aspects must be present for a sound to retain its identity over time? By which cognitive-perceptual means do I use to pick out the identity of a sound amongst other identities? If one sound is non-identical to another sound, what conditions must be met before the two sounds are considered polar opposites? In fact, how non-identical must two sounds be to be called "different"?

2. *Concerns of repetition:* Which aspects of a sound do we measure when we say a sound has repeated? How far close or far apart in time do we allow before saying one sound event is a repetition of another sound event? How do we know if we have two copies of a sound event vs. one copy of a different sound event twice the length? If two repetitions are separated in time, what kinds of sound material can separate the two so that I can identify them as repetitions?

2.5. By the way, I just want to point out that "identity" and "repetition" - which can be reframed as "unity" and "quantity", respectively - are notoriously difficult concepts to pin down and are notoriously difficult to disentangle from each other. This is an issue that's been plaguing philosophers since Plato and especially so-called "dialectical" philosophers like Kant, Hegel and Adorno (yes, that Adorno; we tend to forget that Adorno was first and foremost a philosopher and not a music critic), and so the questions I just posed above are not restricted to music. To see what I mean, try and formulate a working definition for each of these two terms without resorting to the other in your definition. It's not easy.

3. *Concerns about the interactions between emotions and the intellect:* What kinds of sounds or combinations of sounds can spontaneously evoke an emotional reaction out of us? Which cannot? Are the sounds that can evoke emotions legitimate? Are the sounds that cannot legitimate? Is there synchronicity between following music intellectually vs following emotionally? Or discrepancy? In other words, is there a 1-to-1 relationship between intellect and emotions when listening? If so, which thoughts and emotions? If not, why not? To what extent can music manipulate the emotions according to some form? How does a composer evoke a sense of emotional tension whenever there is tension in the sounds themselves? How does a composer evoke a sense of resolution or stability whenever there is resolution/stability in the sound themselves? How easy or difficult can a listener flip between tension and relaxation? What role does emotional or intellectual memory play (memory ultimately being an issue of the passing of time)? How long can I sustain or repeat an emotion or an idea? If I repeat, will the emotion and idea appear exactly the same?

4. These three concerns can be further reduced into deeper issues of metaphysics and epistemology as well as issues concerning the biology of the human body and the environmental situations the human body is subjected to. But I'll leave those to the side.

Every particular musical form can be thought of as a partial/incomplete answer to all of these questions. Partial not only because each form has built-in advantages and limitations but also because, according to Lachenmann, the way we speak about these forms has become sterile and devoid of any philosophical/aesthetic context. Therefore, one can understand Lachenmann's music as an attempt to revitalize and foreground all these questions and provide some preliminary answers. I doubt you can find all of these questions posed explicitly in his writings, but they are all there just below the surface. And for Lachenmann, there is a strong sense of urgency in asking them (as well as developing a habit of asking them) before our collective memory loses this habit to the dustbins of history.

Having plumbed to the depths of music and the discourse surrounding it, Lachenmann comes back to the surface with a broader sound palette than can be found in other music, as a reflection of his widening the scope of possible questions we can ask and as a reflection of the possible forms and structures we can entertain. Lachenmann is asking us to listen to his music in the same way we (ought to) listen to Mozart or Beethoven: by searching for form and structure and how such forms relate to our emotions and _not_ by letting our emotions run wild and untethered towards "merely pretty" sounds. And simultaneously, Lachenmann wants to show that we can expand our critical listening skills to any conceivable noise. The following can be considered an axiomatic of his music: _every sound in the universe - even the ugliest ones - possesses an inherent structure._ And in his view, the task of composing is to rigorously build up compositions from the ground up using these fundamental sound structures. If you can follow music scores, I highly recommend reading Lachenmann's article "Sound Types of New Music", which I linked to in my introductory post. The article outlines five different sound categories according to their function in a musical setting. And while five categories might seem too small a number given the vast array of possible sounds, this article, if nothing else, will illustrate Lachenmann's headspace and the issues that concerned him in the sixties and seventies.

Also, think back to the previous SQ I presented, Saariaho's _Nymphéa (Jardin secret III)_. I know I wrote too long of a post for that piece back then, but my basic point in it was that Saariaho's early style is an exploration into similar issues: how to structure music according to build-up and release of tensions using means other than traditional tonal/harmonic ones. Sarriaho's solution to the problem is a bit more primitive than Lachenmann's (but don't read "primitive" as "worse"); she tends to alternate back-and-forth between pure harmonies and pure grainy noise, and the interesting parts of her music are how she transitions from one side to the other (if you listen to _Nymphéa_ again, this sort of black and white approach to sound vs. noise will be pretty apparent). Lachenmann, on the other hand, develops tensions and resolutions _within_ the field of noise, by categorizing noises according to their basic shapes. The shapes he uses will change from piece to piece, but the same basic idea of categorization is always present.


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## calvinpv

I would first like to emphasize that the amount of detail below is not reflective of how I normally listen to music, nor is it necessarily a model of how one should listen to Lachenmann -- although I think one's listening habits should point in this general direction. The detail is just to drive home the points in the above post.

Also, throughout this post, I use the terms "sound envelope" and "sound shape" in place of Lachenmann's own terms "sound type" or "sound categories" (although the latter might've accidentally slipped in a couple times). I think "envelope" and "shape" emphasizes the fact that we're dealing with physical events and not abstract notions.

*How to Listen to Lachenmann (Part II): Examples*

If you want to tackle an easier Lachenmann work first before settling in with _Reigen seliger Geister_, I'd recommend _Guero_, for piano solo. Skip ahead if you just want to read about the SQ.

In _Guero_, there are two basic, very distinct, "sound envelopes": 1. a gliding sound with the fingers and 2. a plucking/flicking/knocking sound. The timbre of these envelopes certainly changes throughout the piece -- for example, the gliding happens on both the keys and on the piano strings -- but the basic underlying envelopes or shapes do not. With this in mind, focus on:

a) how Lachenmann changes the speed of these shapes to move from one envelope to the other 
b) how Lachenmann changes the timbre of these envelopes to move from one envelope to the other (I know I just said that changing the timbre _within_ a sound envelope does nothing to change the basic nature of that envelope; nevertheless, changing timbre is a useful technique in order to set up a change from one envelope to another, if that makes sense) 
c) how Lachenmann arranges these changes in envelope to create an overarching musical form.

For example, take the opening 43 seconds of the video below. The performer is none other than Lachenmann himself, so I consider this performance authoritative. If you listen closely, this marks out a fully self-contained first section, where the only sound envelope present is the gliding motion (except for one crucial moment where the other envelope is present; I'll get to that below). But don't just tell yourself "okay, gliding technique, time to mentally check out for 45 seconds", listen to the subtle changes made to that gliding envelope and how those changes drive the music forward to the next section starting at 0:43, where the opposite sound envelope predominates.

The first thing to ask yourself is: how is a _single_ gliding sound internally structured? Obviously, it's made up of a rapid series of ticking noises but less obvious is knowing when one gliding motion stops and another starts. While there are variations to the end of each glide (some of which may be due to human error), usually you hear a slight increase or decrease in speed as the hand gets too close to or too far away from the body to remain even. Whatever the case may be, the gliding envelope has the general shape of remaining consistently uniform until a slight change at the end - which is the shape of a musical form, albeit a very primitive one. So before outlining the first section of the piece, we already have a form on our hands.

Now it's time to build up a larger section from this basic gliding shape:
*0:05-0:12:* The section opens with gliding along the front of the white keys with the fingernails. But notice the tiny arch form in these 7 seconds alone. You hear two glides of medium length followed by a couple short glides and then a couple of long glides, one of which speeds up towards the end, this speed up acting as a sort of mini climactic accent. The (asymmetric) arch form is thus medium-short-long.
*0:12-0:23:* A secondary gliding envelope appears on top of the white keys. It possesses the same basic shape as the gliding on the front of the keys, but it sounds smoother, less resistance. This time window is dominated by alternating between the two surfaces, a couple glides at a time on each. The glides are of roughly equal length, pulsing between slightly short and slight long. All this suggests tension and irresolution between two equal sounds. However, a single glide on top of the keys at 0:20-0:22 is longer than normal, anticipating the next time window.
*0:23-0:27:* Rapid, short glides on top of the keys only. But notice a tiny arch form in the speed: fast-very fast-fast. Also note that, despite the climactic tension produce by the speed, there is also resolution when compared to the previous time window (only one gliding type predominates here as opposed to two).
*0:28-0:33:* The two gliding motions mix until 0:30 when the gliding on the front of the keys briefly dominates and lengthens in stroke until at 0:33 the gliding collides right into a knocking sound on the frame of the piano. This moment is significant. Being the loudest and most distinctive sound, it's the climax of the whole section (0:23-0:27 can be considered a secondary climax). Simultaneously, being the first instance of the other type of sound envelope (plucking/flicking/knocking), it anticipates the next section at 0:43. In other words, this sound looks backwards and forwards at the same time.
*0:33-0:43: *The gliding resumes but slows down until the next section, acting as a resolution to the climax. 0:36-0:43 is very interesting. I said earlier that the piece is made up of two distinct sound envelopes, and that's mostly true, and yet, this small section here is a case of the two blurring. The gliding slows down to the point where it sounds like a series of multiple flicks rather than a single cohesive glide, which is a great way to transition from one shape to the other.

This type of analysis can be done with the remainder of the piece, though I haven't done it myself. Notice how, with the exception of words like "climax" or "resolution", I made no mention of any technical aspect that might be too difficult to pick out with the ear alone, such as noise frequencies or rhythms. The only tools you need are patience and the laser-focus discipline of your ears.

Now granted, I had to listen to this section of the piece multiple times to write everything down, so you might think "I won't be able to hear all this in one go". But I would respond with: do we ever listen to a piece of music only once in our lives? Of course not. We listen to pieces several times throughout our lives because we want to get to a deeper and deeper understanding of how it's put together, perhaps a reflection of an innate human desire for seeking the truth in things. This piece is no different: you'll pick out only a few musical relationships between the sound types on your first listen but will get better with each subsequent listen. Since _Guero_ is only a few minutes long, if you want to listen and follow along with the guide above several times, go ahead. Also, if you want to listen while watching Lachenmann perform on the piano, reinforcing your ears with visual cues, then go ahead, although the ultimate goal is to try and listen with ears alone.






Now for _Reigen seliger Geister_. I'm only going to restrict myself to the opening 22 seconds because that's all I have time for, and I think this window of time represents a fairly self-contained musical phrase divided between the four instruments while also pointing to the next section of music. However, it's not as cut-and-dried as in _Guero_; in fact, "phrase" may not be the appropriate term here. I just think there's a nice assortment of different sound shapes here. I'm going to use the JACK Quartet recording for reference because their articulations are pretty crisp. Because more than one sound shape is involved, I will organize the guide according to shape instead of chronologically.

*Tremolo sounds (for lack of a better word):* a tremolo is a sound with an internal periodic movement between two smaller sounds. So the classic example is a rapid "trill" between two notes, but it also means a rapid repetition of the same note (if you want an example of the artificial distinctions propped up in traditional music discourse that I talked about in the previous long post, this is a good example: tremolos and trills are sometimes looked at as separate musical gestures, when Lachenmann - rightfully in my opinion - sees them as two instances of the same underlying phenomenon).

Anyways, at 0:01 you hear very short classic back-and-forth bowing on the same note followed by a very slightly longer bouncing of the bow on a lower note at 0:02. From 0:04-0:05, you hear a very high wispy note sustained for a second then played two more times rapidly. From 0:09-0:11 you hear another low note bowed back-and-forth very quietly in the same manner as the first one at 0:01. The placement of this tremolo combined with its timbral similarity with the first tremolo, suggests symmetry between two halves of a larger musical structure. This tremolo is the single reason why I'm tempted to call these 22 seconds "self-contained".

Finally, at 0:14, you hear a tremolo that is shorter than the previous. These make up the tremolos, and you'll notice that, except for the last, they lengthen in duration. The last one, because it's shorter and because of its placement right before a series of short bow strokes, sounds like a hybrid between this sound shape and the next one. The third tremolo from 0:04-0:05 is interesting in that it's lengthened by lengthening a single bow stroke as opposed to adding more bow strokes. The fourth

*Impulse sounds:* For lack of a better term, I'm naming this sound shape "impulse" because it's characterized by a very short attack followed by a rapid decay in volume. In this opening section of the piece, all instances of this type are short detached bow strokes or pizzicatos or light touches with the fingers (someone more knowledgeable than me will have to tell me if this last one's a thing or not). The first instance is the very first sound you hear at 0:00, a short bow stroke. To be honest, I'm not sure what role this little sound plays. At 0:12, we have another. I'll come back to this one when discussing the next type. Finally, from 0:15-0:19, we hear an ascent of seven short impulses. What's interesting about this series of impulses is that it sets up the whistling harmonics/glissando at 0:21-0:22 (the opening gesture of the next section), not only in the direction the series moves in (both this series and harmonics ascend upwards) but also in their pitch content: the harmonics/glissando together is also seven notes, sharing six of them with the impulse series. The only significant difference is the speed of articulation, 4 seconds vs. 2 seconds. And yet, despite the connections, I'm not sure I would classify the harmonics as part of this sound type (I'm not sure where I'd put it). So here we have a case of one sound shape resembling another.

*Flautato sounds:* The final major sound type is the flute-like whispering sounds dominating this section. But I'd say there are two sub-types. The first involves a single light bow stroke that tails off when the bow stroke is complete. The second involves lightly bowing back and forth at designated times that creates a very faint periodic pulse. This second sub-type, therefore, is somewhat suggestive of the tremolo sound shapes. You will really need to use your ears for distinguishing these two sub-types because they are almost always overlapping.

Instances of the first sub-type occur at 0:01-0:03, 0:10-0:12, and 0:17-0:21. The first of these instances is very hard to hear; its tailing off is more noticeable than its onset. The second one is probably the hardest sound to pick out in the whole section. The third one, although beginning as a flautato sound, actually ends on the same bow stroke as a loud pulse that also serves as anticipation of the harmonics, this time anticipating through its intensity and not by any ascending direction or pitch.

Instances of the latter sub-type occur at 0:01-0:08, 0:05-0:09, 0:10-0:16, 0:13-0:17. A comment on the third of these instances. In the middle of it, at 0:12, is one of the impulse sounds that I mentioned earlier. In Lachenmann's article on the quartet, he points out that when you're in the middle of your bow stroke performing flautato sounds, the whispering flute noise may very briefly yield a discernible pitch before collapsing back into noise. I like to think that the flautato from 0:10-0:16, combined with the impulse at 0:12, is an artificial recreation of this phenomenon. Lachenmann does mention artificial flautato in his article as a formal possibility, and I'd like to think this is such an example. In this recording by the JACK quartet, you actually hear it naturally at the 0:01-0:08 flautato.






EDIT: Bonus piece. temA for voice, flute, and cello. Use the same approach as above. Note that here we're dealing with three seemingly different instruments. And yet, Lachenmann is able to squeeze out the same sound types across the board. An extraordinary work.


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## Bwv 1080

I get textural music, but find Lachemann less interesting than Ligeti or the spectralists. I do like this piece though (probably because it has a beat):


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## starthrower

^^^
That piece doesn't do much for me as a listener and a guitar fan. It's all techniques with no music. The classical guitar has very little sustain so it's hard to make an interesting piece employing a bunch of percussive and sliding techniques. Electronics and amplification would make it possible to expand something like this in to more interesting sonic terrain but as it stands it fails to be an interesting piece of music for this listener. It's not going to compete very strongly for my listening time considering what's out there in the world of guitar music. I'm having about the same amount of success with the quartet but I think a string ensemble combining bowing and percussive techniques has greater potential to create something interesting in these contexts. I'll keep chipping away at it.


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## Burbage

It's nearly Friday, and I've done this. Enjoy*.

When Lachenmann returned to the medium of the string quartet, after a space of almost two decades, as he readily acknowledges in his own writings on the piece**, it was with some reluctance. The string quartet, a traditionally-comprised sound apparatus, had, he claims, become almost forbidden by its very familiarity over centuries, including those from which Lachenmann had himself been excluded. Realising, however, that the forbidden is also the most tempting, he boldly proposed to excavate the landscape he'd created for his _Gran Torso_ even more deeply and keenly, reconciling the temporarily obsolete by orienting concrete sounds into what he conceived as a "clearly botanized presentation".

This was not, I gather, as easy as it sounds, not that easy is how it sounds. Treating the quartet as a single instrument had become something of a cliche. So much so that generations of more superficial composers, from Mozart to Simpson, had lazily transcribed keyboard works for the configurated medium as if there were some sort of equivalence. These examplars of his predecessors , however, did not deter Lachenmann who determined to re-shape that perspective in a new way, realising that it was possible to treat the hidebound string quartet as both a sixteen-string "super-instrument" and a collection of four four-stringed instruments simultaneously.

We do not know exactly what, in those nineteen years of thoughtful toil, drove Lachenmann towards this realisation, but he writes convincingly of the possibilities it opened up and we can see, or possibly hear, how he employed it. For the first time, perhaps, the players in a quartet might produce different sounds at the same time. Or at different times. Or, both alternately and alternatively, 'hocket-like'***. But this blistering epiphany was not enough for Lachenmann, who saw this revelation as not merely a destination but also a springboard to a further revolution within the collaborative definition of music itself, a revolution in which the perceptions of players and audience alike, heightened to supernal levels, would result in work that was not merely hard to play, as exemplified by, for example, Ferneyhough's essays in the medium, but that, bending with some irony into the exclusivity that, at the dawn of the nineties was becoming the hallmark of the mass market, were harder to listen to, too. Curiosity is a vital aspect of a composer's craft, and communicating that curiosity to an audience, permits the questioning that is fundamental to the medium.****

Inspiration for specific elements is, perhaps, easier to find. According to his own heartfelt testament, for example, it was listening to Schoenberg telling anecdotes backwards that inspired a novel technique, namely of 'reverse pizzicato', in which a suitably practiced player may encourage a string to boing before being plucked. This, though inventive enough to dramatically resculpt the contemporary quartet bathygraphy, for want of a better word, was just one of a whole range of bright new possibilities that Lachenmann conceived as starting points for the sonic exploration he presents in this work, this 'ghostly' imposition of a metaphysically horticultural rigour via the mammalian constraints of horsehair and catgut*****.

Lachenmann audibly extends this metaphor throughout the piece, treating the fleshy fingers of the players as germinating tendrils that wind around their fingerboards with subtle indiscretion to produce a range of kaleidoscopic sussurations, In this way, he transfigures the vital movements of living, breathing musicians into a landscape of audible foliage, a veritable shrubbery of sound that both pre-echoes itself and bears witness to Babylon and Gethsemane alike, building a new botanical Babel for his time, while respecting the constraints that the contemptuously comical Kagel had contumed ******.

This, likewise, is just one aspect of the work, which also includes, within Lachenmann's typology of sound, a judiciously parsimonious intercalation of notes and, occasionally, tones, that hints at a holographic trace of a harmony, in clear homage to Beethoven, which, although it according to Lachenmann "plays no musical role", forms a vital meta-melodic seed within the sound-structure framework and aids in the rhythmic interpenetration of the spiritual that emerges from the sensory experience, reducing the temporal net to a latent skeleton as the piece progresses, carefully avoiding destructive harmonic effects while permitting the fundamental tone row to present itself as a series of audibly distinct notes, the intervals between them increasing or decreasing or staying the same, recollecting the visceral beat of an apnoeiac dream.

And surely that, though it makes for challenging listening, is worth ten minutes of anybody's time.

* _ Or not. For an alternative view see Nathaniel Gumbly (TBC), "Who Cares if You Read?", in "Unpublished Correspondence VII" [Anonymous Press, Delaware], DOA._

** _Helmut Lachenmann (2004) "On My Second String Quartet ('Reigen seliger Geister')" , Contemporary Music Review, 23:3-4, 59-79, DOI: 10.1080/0749445042000285681_

*** _ Hocket, a technique of alternating notes between players, had, after a brief flowering in the middle ages, been broadly abandoned so that, beyond the early-music movement, the folk traditions of Asia, Africa, South America and Europe, a few thousand works for marching band and a handful of art-music pieces by obscure reactionaries (including Webern and Schoenberg (who, in his Harmonielehre, attempted to inelegantly vernacularise the concept as "klangfarbenmelodie")), is now known only from Lachenmann's work._

**** _Lachenmann deliberately prompts us, and himself, to interrogate both the nature and extent of music, reassuring audiences that to ask "what's this?" is as valid and urgent a question as "when will it finish?"_

***** _Musicohistorically-informed listeners will doubtless be reminded of Percy Grainger's Kangaroo Pouch Machine which transcendentally juxtaposed the mineral and the marsupial in a way that is philosophically similar, if practically distinct, but which, for reasons now lost to modern audiences, has been lost to modern audiences._

******_See previous_


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## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> Jonathan Impett's book on Nono suggests that Nono was working on a second quartet which maybe he hoped to premier with Reigen seliger geister in Avignon Festival 1989. Nothing came of it because of the illness which caused his death the year after. The first recording of The Diotima Quartet pairs the Nono quartet (Stille - an Diotima) with this one by Lachenmann - and I think it's an illuminating pairing. The two composers are clearly birds of a feather.
> 
> Lachenmann went on to write a third quartet, Grido, which he also transcribed into a piece for string orchestra, called Double. And listening to Reigen seliger geister this evening I wondered whether a transcription of this quartet would be interesting.
> 
> Cage famously said that Beethoven sent music on the wrong path by making everyone focus on harmony, while it's duration which matters more. And the Lachenmann quartet sounds like it's duration music - I mean you have a bit of one texture for a while and then another and then another, a collage of textures. Is any more structure audible to anyone? Not to me!
> 
> The Diotima Quartet recording divides the music into 12 tracks, maybe that is based on something in the score. I wonder whether I'd lose anything if I set playback to random.


I think all three quartets raise issues of duration, perhaps _Gran Torso_ does it the least. But with that quartet, with its hodgepodge of different sounds, you're left in awe as to how the musicians can fluidly move from one technique to the other and not break the narrative thread, raising issues of duration on the part of the musicians (in other words, how long or short do the musicians sustain each performative act). With the other two quartets, questions of duration are raised for the listener. _Reigen seliger Geister_ really tests the ear as to when a flautato noise fades out into nothingness. _Grido_ involves a lot of imitation between the instruments, testing the ear as to when an individual part starts and stops.

About _Reigen seliger Geister_: when I was writing the long post above, I was listening to both Arditti and JACK, and in the opening bars alone, I heard striking differences in the onsets of a couple of the flautato noises, and I would imagine I could find more throughout the whole work if I wanted to. I don't know what to make of that. I don't get the impression Lachenmann is a big fan of improvisation (though I could be wrong), so I wonder if this quartet is particularly difficult for the musicians to communicate cues to each other or if it's difficult even for them to listen to each other in the middle of playing.


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## calvinpv

Mandryka said:


> This is what he did in Gran Torso nearly 20 years before Reigen seliger geister. Has he really been stuck in the same groove for two decades? I hope not.





Knorf said:


> It's worth it, I think, although I go back and forth a bit on Lachenmann. Certainly I can say I'm rather less than fond of his numerous imitators.





Bwv 1080 said:


> I get textural music, but find Lachemann less interesting than Ligeti or the spectralists.


These three statements together are interesting. Not being in the music industry, do many other composers/performers/musicologists/critics, etc. see Lachenmann as sort of a one-off composer who cornered himself into a dead end? Because I'm trying to come up with potential pitfalls that are unique to his type of music, and the only one I can think of is his overly quick dismissal of electronics. I'm sure there are others, but they're not coming to mind.


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## Mandryka

calvinpv said:


> These three statements together are interesting. Not being in the music industry, do many other composers/performers/musicologists/critics, etc. see Lachenmann as sort of a one-off composer who cornered himself into a dead end?


I certainly don't think that he did corner himself like that, the piano concerto, _Ausklang_, for example, seems a different sort of beast from _Gran Torso_. But the question has come up before for me, for example, can anyone explain the essential difference between _Got Lost_ and _Tema_

And just thinking of the quartets, _Grido_ is a very different quartet from _Gran Torso. _


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## Allegro Con Brio

Well, I found this more absorbing and listenable than the other Lachenmann piece chosen by calvinpv more than a year ago (Gran Torso) but ultimately it crosses that threshold of impenetrability for me and though I can appreciate the bevy of brilliant, innovative sounds he draws from the quartet, it's not for me. Does Lachenmann have a distinctive style through which experienced listeners could separate him from similar-sounding composers we've done (Kagel and Wollschleger come to mind)? I do have to say though, that listening to these contemporary pieces actually makes me more aware of the sounds of the natural world and how they may come together to form "music" of sorts. It really forces you to listen for action amidst silence, event amidst blankness, occurrence amidst non-being. Silence becomes an integral component of the composer's canvas; the blank spaces take on a character all their own as they conform to the drops of color around them.

The AllMusic article on this is really superb, worth more than a glance. Unfortunately, per the new forum policy I cannot quote the entire thing on here, but have a look:

_The Quartet's subtitle, "Reigen seliger Geister" ("Dance of the Blessed Spirits," after Gluck), seems to suggest a process of heavenly descent to earth, of apparition or even transubstantiation. At the same time, this unworldly, continual resonance seems to provide a blank sonic table, a water-level through which occasionally protrudes the dorsal profile of some great creature: whatever the image, the notion remains of a massive force being held in check, revealing its scope with a painfully slow but inexorable inertia..._https://play.primephonic.com/work/helmut-lachenmann-1935-pp32?q=lachenmann Geister (click on "more" under "about this work")

*newyorkconversation*, are you out there? I haven't heard from him since sending him a PM about a week ago. Malx, you can be on tap

Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Malx

I gave the Lachenmann a couple of listens earlier in the week and like Gran Torso I could hear patterns of something that had some element of interest for me - then I aggrevated a back problem I have and frankly I have lacked the necessary concentration to give this work serious attention.
That then gave me cause to think - if the piece needs so much concentration and indeed detailed explanation (sorry guys I couldn't muster up the mental energy to fully read those posts) for me to understand it or get any enjoyment from, is it for me or it may just be beyond the boundaries of my abilities to appreciate.


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## Enthusiast

Sorry to hear of your travails, Malx. Wishing you a speedy recovery. In the meantime I am not sure I would want to listen to Lachenmann while in pain - it would be very easy to interpret it as a musical type of pain!


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## Carmina Banana

Though I have only been lurking this week, I love this choice and the discussion. Though I enjoyed hearing the piece itself, I am reading more about Lachenmann and related topics than listening. With some composers from this era, what they say about their work almost constitutes a genre itself. 
It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend once. He told me couldn't stomach fiction anymore. I asked him what he *was* reading and he said, literary criticism. 
After digesting some of the stuff about Lachenmann, I will go back and experience more Lachenmann (I am also eager to listen to more Nono. Yes, yes, Nono).
I will probably have something brilliant to say when Lachenmann is a distant memory and we are on to other topics. Let me just say that I appreciate all of the stimulating comments and suggestions--Calvinpv, my hat is off to you.
At this point, I just have a couple comments:
I found the analysis by Andreyev to have some excellent insights. One thing that stuck with me was the image of seeing a painting from the back--noticing the canvas, the nails that hold the frame together, etc. I guess you could say this is just describing Deconstruction, but I like that image.
From reading an interview with the composer, I get the impression that his process is not encouraging the listener to hear things differently (something composers have probably always done to a degree) but *forcing* the listener to use their ears differently. Any thoughts on that?


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## starthrower

I had a more productive listening session with the Stadler Quartett on NEOS which is an excellent recording. But I can't say I enjoyed the music all that much. Although it did give me a more heightened awareness of the art of listening so maybe that's what makes this a successful piece? The ultra quiet passages requires one to listen and concentrate more acutely. 

I looked up some old threads here and found suggestions for a few of his orchestral pieces. I'm listening to Gielen's recording of Fassade which is pretty cool! I hope you feel better soon, Malx. Back pain is a drag.


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## StevehamNY

Burbage said:


> Lachenmann audibly extends this metaphor throughout the piece, treating the fleshy fingers of the players as germinating tendrils that wind around their fingerboards with subtle indiscretion to produce a range of kaleidoscopic sussurations, In this way, he transfigures the vital movements of living, breathing musicians into a landscape of audible foliage, a veritable shrubbery of sound that both pre-echoes itself and bears witness to Babylon and Gethsemane alike, building a new botanical Babel for his time, while respecting the constraints that the contemptuously comical Kagel had contumed ******.


I mean... damn.

(In other words, glad you're back, Burbage!)


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## Enthusiast

I've enjoyed listening a few times to the Lachenmann. It is not a work I have spent a lot of time with (I am more familiar with Grido and Gran Torso) and I tend to need a lot of time with music that is this unfamiliar (ideally time listening with long gaps between hearings). So, it is inevitable that what I have to say can only be a description of fairly initial encounters with the work. 

I hear it in much the same way as other music and it sounds like a deeply meaningful quartet … only it is as if the musical language is alien. Might this be how a Beethoven quartet would sound to a Martian? I find it full of incident and inspiration at least until halfway through. But does it then get bogged down? I don’t think it does, but I also cannot really detect the development of its musical ideas. It begins to sound a little like a catalogue of (un)musical effects. But, then, the last few minutes do seem to be some sort of climax, an attempt to resolve the piece.

I listened to two recordings – those by the Stadler and the Arditti quartets – and didn’t find huge differences between them. But I think I got closer to the illusion of understanding the music with the Stadler Quartet’s recording which seemed more subtle. I am now well set up to get to know the piece.


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## calvinpv

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, I found this more absorbing and listenable than the other Lachenmann piece chosen by calvinpv more than a year ago (Gran Torso) but ultimately it crosses that threshold of impenetrability for me and though I can appreciate the bevy of brilliant, innovative sounds he draws from the quartet, it's not for me. Does Lachenmann have a distinctive style through which experienced listeners could separate him from similar-sounding composers we've done (Kagel and Wollschleger come to mind)?


If you know where to direct your ears, there's absolutely a distinctive style. Lachenmann is probably one of the most formalist of the noise composers. It may be hard to hear the use of similar sound types in _Reigen seliger Geister_ but if you listen to _Guero_, which I talked about in one of my long posts above, there are only two basic sound types being used on the piano, and Lachenmann arranges their appearances in such a way so as to create build-ups and releases of tension. Lachenmann is a stereotypical "German" composer fixated on structure.

Contrast that with one of Lachenmann's students Pierluigi Billone. There's also a sort of loose formalism in the piece below (a yin-and-yang opposition between bowing two note intervals and strumming like a guitar with the left hand). Yet, there something profoundly spiritual and meditative in this piece that you'll never hear in Lachenmann. Lachenmann's music is very dynamic in its formalism, but with Billone, there's something reminiscent of an Eastern spiritual mantra.








> I do have to say though, that listening to these contemporary pieces actually makes me more aware of the sounds of the natural world and how they may come together to form "music" of sorts. It really forces you to listen for action amidst silence, event amidst blankness, occurrence amidst non-being. Silence becomes an integral component of the composer's canvas; the blank spaces take on a character all their own as they conform to the drops of color around them.


When I've talked about the philosophical underpinnings of SQ's I've presented in this group (Lachenmann, Rihm, Saariaho), it's because of what you describe here. What makes contemporary music so powerful and uplifting for me (yes, the rough hewn noises are very uplifting) is that it's teaching me about the world around me as well as my own capabilities of listening to it. The lessons one should take away from Lachenmann or any other contemporary composer should not be strictly musical ones but ones broader in scope about the need to listen to others, to see the inherent value and goodness in what we may first dismiss as ugly or bothersome, and to become grounded in our environment and in the present moment. You can interpret those in a spiritual, scientific, or political sense, it doesn't matter.

Hence why my posts may come off as overly long or didactic. Because don't I think these lessons are immediately obvious; they certainly weren't for me at first. When I first started listening to contemporary music, I listened mostly for the vast array of unusual sounds. But the more I listened, the more I realized there's a deeper message being conveyed, and so I started to read and think about music as much as listening to it (to the extent that I could do so, of course). And then I realized that these extra-musical activities like reading and thinking were _themselves_ integral to the process. I understand that a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but one can't fix their un-attuned ears ... using only their un-attuned ears. Supplementary activities, I think, are just as important.


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## Bwv 1080

I’m fairly conservative in that I want to hear predominantly well thought out pitched material, with indeterminate pitched effects playing a secondary role. I can get into indeterminately pitched stuff only with interesting rhythms. Would not try to argue my preferences are some objective standard of quality though


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## Malx

As it is now Sunday and it appears newyorkconversation has not made contact with ACB I will proceed with this weeks selection.

My selection is a work from a Polish composer that hasn't featured on the thread so far, a female composer who was working under some similar, yet not as fierce, restrictions as the Soviet composers of the time.

*Grażyna Bacewicz - String Quartet No 4 *

This piece was premiered in 1951 and in the same year won first prize at the inaugural 'International Competition for Composers of a String Quartet' in Liege played by the Quatuor Municipal(?). Below is a comment from the Belgian press at the time which may give you a flavour of the style of the quartet:

_"The language of the 'Quartet' is more classical than those of the other quartets performed during the same audition. Its melody is fuller and, one could say, more tradition-oriented. The elegiac introduction is followed by fantastic themes that soon mingle with other musical thoughts, and breathing becomes faster. The slow movement attains a level which one cannot notice in any other quartets. This quiet meditation and logically constructed fugato reveal extraordinary mental qualities and a truly musical temper. Again, it is Beethoven that comes to mind, this time from his last quartets, especially in Rondo, where a Polish folk dance intertwines with episodes of a reflexive nature" (Marcel Lamaire, "Le Monde du travail", 3rd October 1951)._

The piece is in three movements, lasting around twenty minutes.
I am aware of nine recordings, not too many to locate, although some are buried in multicomposer discs so searching by quartet name may help:

Lutosławski Quartet,
Szymanowski Quartet,
Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet,
Diverso Quartet,
Silesian Quartet,
Amar Corde Quartet,
Royal Quartet, 
Maggini Quartet (on ASV)
Wister Quartet
(I'm sure others will be found during the week).

Those who aren't the greatest fans of 20th century composers please don't be put off, this work I believe to be easily accessible and well worth the effort.

I hope you all enjoy this weeks selection.

*ETA*

I generally don't use YouTube for classical as the sound quality is basic but I have found a live performance by the Szymanowski Quartet from 2015 that may be of interest

_Note added at request of Malx: the performance in the originally linked video suffers from a poor acoustic combined with a poor recording quality and the occasional poor intonation._


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## Merl

Nice pick, Malx. I only have the Silesian quartet on Chandos and I've probably played this quartet only once in the few years I've had it so time to dig it out and give it another go. That's my problem, I buy stuff on the cheap, listen once, think "it's OK" and then don't revisit it for years and years.

PS,. Malx, I've also found an old recording by the *Warsaw Quartet *(from the 60s), a later one by the *Grazyna Bacewicz Warsaw String Quartet *(I'm guessing they're what used to be the aforementioned Warsaw Quartet) on an Olympia, analogue recording from the late 70s and a 2019 one from the young, Japanese *Toki Quartet.*


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## starthrower

Malx, the Bacewicz No. 4 was slated to be my selection in a couple of weeks but I'm glad to see it featured here by whomever. I'm surprised this much time has gone by without one of her quartets featured. I still haven't come close to absorbing the music of all these quartets but some of the themes from no.4 have stuck to my brain more than the others pieces. I have the Naxos recordings so I'll stick with the Lutoslawski Quartet for now.


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## Enthusiast

I'm a bit of an outsider on this forum as far as Bacewicz is concerned. Everyone seems to like her but I have never been clear why. I tried several of her pieces a while back and didn't greatly warm to them. I'll try again with this quartet but not with very much hope: the music seems simple and easy to understand so it seems unlikely that I just have to go through a learning curve to discover a love.


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## Knorf

Grażyna Bacewicz has been on my radar for some time, but I've not dipped into her repertoire at all, yet. Looking forward to this selection!


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## sbmonty

I can’t remember a time I felt so strongly about a work so quickly. Amazing discovery for me. Thanks for a great selection!


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## BlackAdderLXX

Enthusiast said:


> I'm a bit of an outsider on this forum as far as Bacewicz is concerned. Everyone seems to like her but I have never been clear why. I tried several of her pieces a while back and didn't greatly warm to them. I'll try again with this quartet but not with very much hope: the music seems simple and easy to understand so it seems unlikely that I just have to go through a learning curve to discover a love.


I see your "Outsider" and raise you an "I'm oblivious". I not only had never heard this work, I've never even heard of this work or this composer. I listened to the video in the OP but the intonation was a little hard on my ears so while I listened to the entire piece, I was fighting sometimes to stay with it, though it was more the audio than the composition. I'll try to find other versions online to give this piece another go.


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## Malx

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I see your "Outsider" and raise you an "I'm oblivious". I not only had never heard this work, I've never even heard of this work or this composer. I listened to the video in the OP but the intonation was a little hard on my ears so while I listened to the entire piece, I was fighting sometimes to stay with it, though it was more the audio than the composition. I'll try to find other versions online to give this piece another go.


I didn't listen to the video I posted - perhaps I should have. There are a good number of the names I posted available on Spotify and Qobuz the other streaming providers I don't have knowledge of. I would strongly suggest trying audio only hopefully it will provide a better impression of the piece.
Maybe I should get the video removed from my post? *ETA* video now removed.

If you use Spotify they have the Diverso, Lutoslawski, Amar Corde, Silesian, Szymanowski & Wister recordings. The Diverso have very decent sound which may eradicate the initial poor introduction the video has given you.


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## Merl

Seems like I didn't waste my money buying the Silesian recording a few years back. Glad I returned to it. A nice surprise. Just listened to the *Lutoslawski* recording which is very nice.


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## StevehamNY

I know that Bacewicz gave secret underground concerts during the war, so badassery points are already in order. (Perhaps Burbage can give us more context on this story?)









I have the Chandos album, and will be looking forward to several listens this week. I know that I already love the Silesian Quartet for their Bargielski, Nowak, and other music that I never would have heard otherwise. And I know this was their first album with Chandos and a big award winner, for whatever that's worth.

These Bacewicz quartets haven't completely landed with me on previous listens, not even sure why. But not for the first time, I'm wondering if some concentrated listening this week will help me find something I might have been missing.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Lutosławski Quartet,
> Szymanowski Quartet,
> Fanny Mendelssohn Quartet,
> Diverso Quartet,
> Silesian Quartet,
> Amar Corde Quartet,
> Royal Quartet,
> Maggini Quartet (on ASV)
> Wister Quartet
> (I'm sure others will be found during the week).


I worked my way through some of these today and I wont be bothering with the *Fanny Mendelssohn's* recording again (that scratchy-sounding last movement was rather unpleasant) or the *Amar Corde* recording which I just found a bit listless and a not terribly well recorded.

On the other hand the *Lutoslawski*, *Royal* and *DAFO* quartets (the Polish ensemble, Quarteto DAFO, wasnt on Malx's list above but was on my HD) are really good and I particularly enjoyed one of those performances a great deal.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Malx said:


> If you use Spotify they have the Diverso, Lutoslawski, Amar Corde, Silesian, Szymanowski & Wister recordings. The Diverso have very decent sound which may eradicate the initial poor introduction the video has given you.


I found the Lutoslawski on YouTube. I'm listening to it now and I'm really enjoying it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

What a lovely, unique piece of music! The rich, Schoenberg-inflected harmonic language of her Polish predecessor Szymanowski is well in evidence, as are some delightfully folksy Dvorakian passages, and the nonstop rhythmic impetus at times reminded me of the Martinu and Tippett quartets we've done; but it all comes together into an individual product. On this first listen I didn't find there to be an exceptional sense of development - it's more of a "soak up the tunes and tap your toes" kind of piece rather than one than engages the mind on the deepest level, but there's nothing wrong with that at all. Maybe not a work I would return to often but it intrigued me enough to make me want to explore more Bacewicz, so mission accomplished. Excellent choice, Malx.


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What a lovely, unique piece of music! The rich, Schoenberg-inflected harmonic language of her Polish predecessor Szymanowski is well in evidence, as are some delightfully folksy Dvorakian passages, and the nonstop rhythmic impetus at times reminded me of the Martinu and Tippett quartets we've done; but it all comes together into an individual product. On this first listen I didn't find there to be an exceptional sense of development - it's more of a "soak up the tunes and tap your toes" kind of piece rather than one than engages the mind on the deepest level, but there's nothing wrong with that at all. Maybe not a work I would return to often but it intrigued me enough to make me want to explore more Bacewicz, so mission accomplished. Excellent choice, Malx.


Nice summary of the piece ACB - as I hinted at in my initial post althought from the early 1950's this is not music that will overly frighten the horses. But is, as you suggest, distinctive enough to be more well known (imo). Various influences can be heard but overall I believe is it not overly derivative, I find it to be a very good if not groundbreaking piece that the more I listen to the more I enjoy, always a good sign.

For the record I only have the Silesian Quartet's complete quartets on the shelves and have accessed the other recordings via streaming. I have listened to all those I listed excepting the Maggini on ASV which I can't find on Qobuz or Spotify. The Silesian obviously benefits from being my first exposure to the piece but the Diverso, Royal and Lutoslawski recordings are all pretty impressive. 
At this stage of the week there is one that I am tempted to add to the collection but I'll wait until later until divulging the name.


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## Mandryka

I have a question. Is there anyone who enjoys both the Lachenmann and the Bacewicz?


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## Knorf

Mandryka said:


> I have a question. Is there anyone who enjoys both the Lachenmann and the Bacewicz?


Of course! Why wouldn't there be?


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## starthrower

Knorf said:


> Of course! Why wouldn't there be?


When it comes to modern quartets I'm looking for something in between the two. Although the Bacewicz no.4 is a solid and enjoyable work, I'd prefer to hear something a bit bolder and more adventurous. And of course she wrote three more quartets after the fourth that venture into that territory. But I need something that either tells me a story or takes me on a journey. The Lachenmann failed to do either for me. I couldn't detect a narrative flow to the work. Maybe it's there in its oh so subtle way and I haven't grasped the reins? But the few pieces I've listened to seemed to be concerned with textures, extreme dynamics and exploiting the timbres of the instruments. It gives me the feeling of remaining stationary while people throw things at me.


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> I have a question. Is there anyone who enjoys both the Lachenmann and the Bacewicz?


Played together at the same time?


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## starthrower

Bwv 1080 said:


> Played together at the same time?


You might be on to something there!


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## Bwv 1080

Really dig the piece, been listening to Lutoslawski and Silesian recordings


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## Merl

Listened to most of these twice now. I'm enjoying this quartet quite a bit, particularly the rather fun and whimsical final movement. I've not been able to hear the Maggini recording but I've heard the rest. My brief thoughts are in my blog post, linked below but I will say that I have a clear favourite recording here and that's the exciting, Polish Diverso Quartet (who incidentally were resident at the RNCM in my home city) . I really enjoyed their way with the piece. Whilst the Royals, for example, attacked the piece with a lot of force, the Diverso quartet are slightly more restrained but with a giddy undercurrent that really drew me into the performance and made me rate it so highly.









https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3499-bacewicz-string-quartet-4-a.html


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## StevehamNY

If I were an art director and somebody suggested a "photographic elaboration" (a hand-colored photograph) of a Warsaw neighborhood circa 1960 ("a few buildings and a bus"), I probably would have been skeptical of the idea. But the execution of this album cover turns out to be another Chandos winner that well represents the music, I think:









I like the companion album cover almost as much:









And by the way, slightly off topic but has anyone listened to these other pieces (two piano quintets, a quartet for violins, and a quartet for cellos)? I am definitely coming around on the straight-up quartets, but I find these other pieces to be especially strong. And that's not my usual preference when it comes to pure quartets vs. other arrangements.

And finally, no mention of Bacewicz' 4th would be complete without a callback to this classic album cover previously found by ACB:









The original photo credit went to the Olan Mills Portrait Studio in the Ferndale Shopping Plaza, Bellmawr, PA. But further research suggests that the foursome made a real evening out of it after sitting for the portrait, visiting the nearby Sizzler restaurant for their all-you-can-eat buffet.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> View attachment 158817
> 
> 
> The original photo credit went to the Olan Mills Portrait Studio in the Ferndale Shopping Plaza, Bellmawr, PA. But further research suggests that the foursome made a real evening out of it after sitting for the portrait, visiting the nearby Sizzler restaurant for their all-you-can-eat buffet.


Bahaha! You kill me, Steve. :lol:


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## SearsPoncho

Steve: I suspect that both Josquin and I have been to that mall. 

Looking forward to finally hearing the string quartet tonight if I can find the time. BTW, is this the 4th female composer on this thread?


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## Knorf

Sixth by my count.


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## HenryPenfold

As per normal, I shall probably stick to the recording in my library, Silesian Quartet.

I like Bacewicz's music very much and have had a few CDs in my collection for some time. I particularly enjoy the piano quintets and the piano sonata #2 that I have on a DG CD.

This quartet is a very enjoyable 20 minutes of modern (not contemporary) string quartet music. A well-worked fist movement followed by a flowing andante that has some beautiful music. The finale is quite exhilarating and has real pace about it with a rhythmic drive that carries it over the line.

I think the Silesians perform the music very well, with adept pizzicato and idiomatic folksiness.

Because I have no comparators, I couldn't say if the Silesian's performance is the on to have.


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## starthrower

> Because I have no comparators, I couldn't say if the Silesian's performance is the on to have.


You certainly didn't pick a bad recording, Henry! I've been meaning to pick up the quintets but I can't decide on the DG disc paired with the piano sonata or the Chandos CD with the other string pieces.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> You certainly didn't pick a bad recording, Henry! I've been meaning to pick up the quintets but I can't decide on the DG disc paired with the piano sonata or the Chandos CD with the other string pieces.


I have both CDs. I have a preference for the DG, but I think that could be due to the fact that, that was possibly the first Bacewicz CD I ever bought. The Chandos has a better picture on the front :lol:


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## starthrower

> The Chandos has a better picture on the front


They tend to have much better covers than most other classical labels. But then again the competition isn't very stiff!


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> They tend to have much better covers than most other classical labels. But then again the competition isn't very stiff!


Hyperion have wonderful covers.


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> Hyperion have wonderful covers.


I bought the Smetana / Janacek Quartets CD a couple of weeks ago. It has a beautiful cover photo. But Steve wasn't joking about that cheesy Olan Mills cover. My mother brought me to one of their studios in the mid 70s. She still has the photos with the milky blue, black background!


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## SearsPoncho

I just listened to the marvelous Lutoslawski Quartet play this week's selection. Oh, hell yeah! 

First of all, even though this was my first time listening to that music, I don't think I'm going out on a limb in declaring the recording by the Lutoslawski Quartet as remarkable. I think they would be an ideal quartet to play the string quartets of Shostakovich.

As for the quartet, I started out in the sound world of early Schoenberg and ended in one somewhat similar to Bartok. I decided not to read any comments about this work and just go with my own thoughts here. 

The first movement had a collective resonance that reminded me of early-mid Schoenberg. There's some absolutely gorgeous string writing in the 1st movement, with beautiful lyrical lines clashing with terrifying rhythmic accents. I love her large dynamic palette* (hey, that sounds almost dirty - my Jim Gaffigan voice). The combination of the serene and that which is unsettling. The second movement was pensive and tense, and the quiet ending made it sound like an elegie. The kinetic dynamism of the 3rd movement reminded me of a Hungarian composer whose last name rhymes with Schmartok. There's the sharp, angular string writing and what definitely sounds like folk music or some kind of song; we even get a pizzicato section to satisfy our craving for that much-loved timbre. She must have been a string player. How could anyone that wrote string music like that not play a string instrument? Actually, history has proven me wrong on that assertion. 

Very enjoyable. A great selection by Mal! 

This is another great example of why this thread kicks @ss: It keeps introducing me to fascinating new music. After several decades of listening to classical music I thought I had (almost) heard it all. I haven't even scratched the surface yet.

*Hey, buddy! I like large palettes. Is he going to make large palette jokes all night?


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> Hyperion have wonderful covers.


I totally concur that Chandos and Hyperion have set a higher standard for representing their music with their album covers. I know this isn't pop music, but it still matters!

I've been mentally putting together a post (I'll wait for a slow day) in which I make the case that an album's cover *literally* makes you hear the music differently. No joke! I'll even use scientific references!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I totally concur that Chandos and Hyperion have set a higher standard for representing their music with their album covers. I know this isn't pop music, but it still matters!
> 
> I've been mentally putting together a post (I'll wait for a slow day) in which I make the case that an album's cover *literally* makes you hear the music differently. No joke! I'll even use scientific references!


A good album cover makes a difference but in an age where more and more stuff is streamed I think it's influence is decreasing. Saying that, you still need an image to go along with your Spotify listening. I think the Takacs' covers on Hyperion are particularly effective. They ooze class like the music of the quartet they're representing.

I think that would make a great topic for a thread, Steve.


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## Burbage

Knorf said:


> Sixth by my count.


At the risk of treading on numerological toes:

Crawford Seeger,
Frank,
Ran,
Saariaho,
Mendelssohn (F),
Gubaidulina,

and Bacewicz makes seven.


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## Knorf

You're totally right. I think I misread Frank as Franck.


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## Knorf

Of course, we've had both Franck and Frank. Apologies for the idiot double post.


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## Malx

Following on from my post a couple of days back, I have now listened again to all the recordings available to me via streaming or on disc, with a couple of exceptions the level of performance is pretty high. Standing out from the crowd for me are the Lutoslawski, Royal, Diverso, plus one that Merl drew my attention to - the DAFO quartet.

I am happy to have the Silesian Quartet set on my shelves but if pushed I'd say the combination of performance and recording quality of the Diverso Quartet probably gives them the edge over the others mentioned.

Having spent more time with the quartet this week than I had previously by exploring other interpretations has increased my level of enjoyment of the piece. Concentrated, more critical listening invariably has an effect on opinions one way or the other - there lies the true benefit of this thread.

*ETA* - Having found an image for the DAFO recording I'd thought I'd share:


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Following on from my post a couple of days back, I have now listened again to all the recordings available to me via streaming or on disc, with a couple of exceptions the level of performance is pretty high. Standing out from the crowd for me are the Lutoslawski, Royal, Diverso, plus one that Merl drew my attention to - the DAFO quartet.
> 
> I am happy to have the Silesian Quartet set on my shelves but if pushed I'd say the combination of performance and recording quality of the Diverso Quartet probably gives them the edge over the others mentioned.
> 
> Having spent more time with the quartet this week than I had previously by exploring other interpretations has increased my level of enjoyment of the piece. Concentrated, more critical listening invariably has an effect on opinions one way or the other - there lies the true benefit of this thread.
> 
> *ETA* - Having found an image for the DAFO recording I'd thought I'd share:


I love the DAFO account but boy that cover absolutely sucks. Looks like they didn't get paid for that recording.


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## SearsPoncho

It looks like they're waiting for test results. Maybe it's intentional: It goes with that pensive 2nd movement. Positive or negative?


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## Malx

Possibly taken in a studio in a mall in Gdansk, not the milky blue and black background of the Wister Quartet cover but more of a light purple haze - looks like they were asked to project a thoughtful arty image, not sure if they achieved it


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## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> Possibly taken in a studio in a mall in Gdansk, not the milky blue and black background of the Wister Quartet cover but more of a light purple haze - looks like they were asked to project a thoughtful arty image, not sure if they achieved it


Yeah, I think the photographer must have said, "Okay, now try one where you're all emo and angsty and looking in different directions."


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## Bwv 1080

While reflecting upon the creative life of an artist, I often ask myself the following questions: What did he or she come in to this world with, i.e., what has nature endowed them with, and also, did they, by their effort, succeed in developing these inborn talents, taking advantage of them to the fullest, for the benefit of mankind? This last thought deserves special emphasis, because many creative artists treat their inherited talents as if they were their own to dispense for their own personal aims, and not always in the noblest way. As I see it, the talent of an artist is a unique privilege, a distinction. As such, it carries with it commensurate obligations. Thus an artist with any moral sense whatsoever should know that, in developing their talents for the enrichment of mankind, they are only fulfilling their obligations, while that which they create is only in small measure their own merit.

My preceding reflections are the key to my remarks on Grażyna Bacewicz, a distinguished Polish composer of this century, whose premature departure has been an irreconcilable loss. There is no doubt in my mind that the answers to the above questions, as far as Grażyna Bacewicz is concerned, are positive ones. She was born with an incredible wealth of musical talent, which she succeeded to bring to full flourish through an almost fanatical zeal and unwavering faith in her mission. The intensity of her activities was so great that she managed, in a cruelly-shortened life, to give birth to such treasures that any composer of her stature with a considerably longer life span could only envy.

I do not propose to discuss or dwell on the merits of her compositional legacy. To anyone who was close to her creativity, to become acquainted with and to experience her creations, their artistic value is quite evident. To be sure, I have always been of the opinion that a true judgement of the creative ability of a composer does not belong to contemporary reviewers or artists, but to thousands of audiences over many decades, which may be referred to as the "jury of time." Based on the fact that many of her earliest works are still being performed throughout the world today, one can already predict that her music will stand this test of time. As examples, we can cite the Concerto for String Orchestra, a favorite with this type of ensemble, and her String Quartet No. 3, which is marked by an exceptional polyphonic skill in addition to its masterly idiomatic writing for string quartet.

It does not appear proper to me to judge her works only in the light of the compositional styles and rapidly changing artistic currents of her lifetime. Like so many other composers of larger compositional forms, she was to a great degree independent of the atmosphere surrounding her. Rather, it was her music that helped to create that atmosphere and could be held up as an example to the younger generation of composers.

When I think of Grażyna Bacewicz, I cannot limit myself to her music alone. I was fortunate to belong to that group of people who were bound with her by virtue of professional friendship. Thus I was privileged to know her closely for many years. It allowed me to observe and admire her character first hand - her integrity, honesty, compassion, and her willingness to share and sacrifice for others. This image of her as an artist and human being ought to be an inspiration to the succeeding generations of composers in Poland and throughout the world.

- Witold Lutoslawski

https://polishmusic.usc.edu/researc...rnal/vol5no1/grazyna-bacewicz-life-and-works/


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## Bwv 1080

Judging from whats available on IDAGIO, here SQ, concertos and misc chamber works for strings are standard repertoire. No recordings of her symphonies though (at least on streaming)


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## Art Rock

Bwv 1080 said:


> No recordings of her symphonies though (at least on streaming)


Her third symphony is available on Koch. The symphony for strings on Hyperion.


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## starthrower

Her violin concertos are wonderful pieces. I started listening rather late the other night so I didn't get to No.1, but Nos.3 & 7 sounded fantastic to my ears. Rich in beauty and musical ideas!


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## SearsPoncho

Krystian Zimerman recorded an album of her music, including a piano sonata and a couple piano quintets with some colleagues. Order placed.


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## Bwv 1080

You all are probably hip to this, but always find Polish pronunciation confusing and in my mind read her name like 'base-a-witz'

when its more like 'botsevich'

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/LL-Q809_(pol)-Poemat-Grażyna_Bacewicz.wav


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## Burbage

_It's been Friday for a while, so I should have done this earlier, but didn't. There is no good reason for my indolence but, in a world where badly-researched, maliciously-motivated and downright libellous cut-and-paste work can pave the road to Downing Street, it would seem churlish to apologise._

A casual observer in 1946 might have excusably mistaken Grazyna Bacewicz (the composer) with Roman Bacewitz (the writer) if only for the reason that they were the same person. That year, she (the composer), wrote to her brother, who'd opted to follow his roots and was living in Lithuania, boasting that he (the writer) had written a novel (a crime novel, I gather) and a half (no idea), and had a short story read out on the wireless.

Grazyna Bacewicz had the same roots, more or less, but had more-or-less stayed in Poland, splitting her time between Paris and Krakow and Warsaw, playing in concerts and composing when she could. As all that activity, and dislocation, implies, she seems to have been more than herself. That wasn't very unusual at the time, in that it's not so unusual now. I'm sure we all know finance directors, for example, who go to work dressed for a day at the races, or colleagues who've sacrificed domestic comforts to turn a corner of their home into a performative shrine to their passion for whatever best suits their employers, be it legacy planning or cashew futures. All are souls who've curated their lives to suit a particular audience, be it the censors of the Polish Post or the room-raters of Zoom, it's just some have better motives than others.

In Bacewicz's time, the risk wasn't so much, as it is now, of forgetting we're pretending, but of forgetting to pretend. That would have been a career-limiting, and possibly life-limiting, blunder, which is why, before returning to Poland after a stint in Paris, Grazyna exhorted her brother to be more careful in what he wrote. We can assume, I think, that she was being careful, too, and so we might usefully think twice before believing any word (or note) she wrote. And so when, a few years later, she writes about the 'new road' in music she's forging, it's difficult what to make of it



> "I decided a new road had to be found. It should lead above all through a simplification of the musical language. A simplification, not a return to the old ways of classicism, of the major-minor system − the quest for the simple and the new, obviously without denying the achievements of the … first half of the 20th century. …I've thrown all caution to the wind and I now write emotional music. I'm not saying I've already found that new road…I'm searching, I'm concentrating and, above all, I'm trying to write earnestly. ...
> I have a test for my own road being not too bad, since my Quartet won first prize despite being jotted down in no time between one thing and another!"


Are there echoes of "socialist realism" here? Is there an element of self-criticism, appropriate to a former reactionary (who was now writing of having destroyed many previous works, though some were only hidden), still active in the West, but (unavoidably) reliant on state commissions? Or did she think that claiming to be 'emotional' might distract attention from what else her music might be up to?

She further writes:



> "I've come to the conclusion during my stay in Belgium that western composers are going nowhere. They're still fooling around with noises, colors, interesting rhythms etc., but still there's no Music there…. I think you've been misinformed on the "commission" system here. In fact it's a wonderful thing that's making the whole western Europe green with envy. We're being paid by the state so that we can work in all tranquility. … I'd rather get the money from the state than from an individual. The commissions might display certain tendencies − for instance, to produce operas and cantatas accessible to the general public − but, in general, one does what one does best. … A composer must write honestly, for inner satisfaction, yet without forgetting his audience."


I am reminded of the old saw that writing about music is like dancing about architecture, and I think that's what Bacewicz is doing here. She knew her words were likely to be picked over by bureaucrats with a tendency to imprison musicians, and I suspect they were shaped with the glib mendacity of a PR-company's presentation of a financier's idea of an architect's vision. A dance, in its way, designed to extract permissions and drum up sales, and ensure the "artist's impression" endures longer than any quibbles about whether it complies with regulations.

This, admittedly, tells us almost nothing about the quartet, and not a huge amount about Bacewicz, who may or may not have thought such things. But we already know, given her job as a violinist (and his as an author), she had a bunch of talent and determination and was smart enough to make it pay, and that's how she comes across as a composer. Adrian Thomas writes, in the Silesian/Chandos notes for this quartet, that "Bacewicz largely ignored such [socialist realist] pressures" but it seems to me that's the same for all her quartets, with the seventh an almost logical conclusion the the series that starts with the first. Every time, she finds new ways with conventional forms, but in a way that's true to previous work.

She's not alone in that, but her combination of consistency and concision, and sense of place, calls clear and direct through the avant-garde forest of "little noises". Sure, it's a 'neo-classical' voice, in that it respects traditional forms, but that frees it from the philosophical and/or ideological bonds, external and internal, that trapped others into writing cantatas for tractor factories or dialectically gibbering about the nature of music itself. I'm happy to have heard it.


----------



## Bwv 1080

This is just beautiful, sounds like Bill Evans


----------



## HenryPenfold

I decided to listen to the Lutoslawski Quartet on Naxos. A very good performance, easily the equal of the Silesian Quartet performance. 

I find the Silesians have a lighter touch and more 'swing', but the Lutoslawski's bring more drama and it has to be said, more power.

Not sure which I prefer - good job it doesn't matter!


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## SearsPoncho

Bwv 1080 said:


> This is just beautiful, sounds like Bill Evans


Yep. I expect Miles' trumpet to slide in at any moment with a couple wistful notes held over several bars.


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## BlackAdderLXX

@ACB - am I up this week? I saw my name on the list but I think there was also someone who was supposed to go but couldn't be reached last week? In either case I stand ready to perform my proletariat duties.


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## BlackAdderLXX

HenryPenfold said:


> I decided to listen to the Lutoslawski Quartet on Naxos. A very good performance, easily the equal of the Silesian Quartet performance.
> 
> I find the Silesians have a lighter touch and more 'swing', but the Lutoslawski's bring more drama and it has to be said, more power.
> 
> Not sure which I prefer - good job it doesn't matter!


I don't have a recording of this but after this week I want one. My choice will be one of these two for sure...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

BlackAdderLXX said:


> @ACB - am I up this week? I saw my name on the list but I think there was also someone who was supposed to go but couldn't be reached last week? In either case I stand ready to perform my proletariat duties.


You are correct, BA! NYC still can't be reached, so you are up. Current list:
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast

BTW, sorry for the relative lack of participation this week; my headphones pooped out and I had no method of listening to music (oh, the horror!) for much of the week. Luckily I get to go home from college this weekend and hopefully remedy that situation


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## BlackAdderLXX

Allegro Con Brio said:


> You are correct, BA! NYC still can't be reached, so you are up. Current list:


Ok. While we still have one more day, I need to put this up now or I won't get to it until late tomorrow afternoon. It was difficult to come up with a choice that wasn't "another" Haydn, Beethoven, Dvorak or Shosty quartet. For inspiration I turned to the box of British Quartets performed by the Magginis (recommended to me as excellent by Merl - who was right by the way) and came up with a work that I really found myself enjoying a lot.

Alwyn String Quartet No. 3
William Alwyn CBE, (born William Alwyn Smith;[1] 7 November 1905 - 11 September 1985)

Movie buffs know William Alwyn (1905-1985) as one of Britain's most prolific and innovative film composers, with 70 feature scores to his credit. Fewer music-lovers know that he wrote a wide variety of concert works as well, many created in the romantic style of his film scores.

A perfectionist, Alwyn spent 33 years developing his quartet-writing technique, producing 13 quartets before the ones he finally acknowledged. In 1953, when 48 years old and at the height of his powers, Alwyn published the String Quartet No. 1 while under the spell of Czech music and the sanguine state of his life. The work is sunny and warmly romantic and includes, in the Adagio, a violin solo of startling beauty, one of Alwyn's most ravishing creations. This quartet is the most conventional of the three, and listeners who enjoy Dvorák's later quartets will feel right at home.

Alwyn was in a very different frame of mind 22 years later. The String Quartet No. 2, the most personal of the quartets, is a darker work of loss and regret. Janácek is felt here, but by and large this piece inhabits the austerely chromatic sound world of Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht . Again the Adagio, here the final movement, carries the greatest emotional weight, as the aging composer seems to struggle with despondency and impotent rage. The two-movement Third Quartet, Alwyn's last major work, written in his last year, begins where the Second leaves off. Here, though, the tension and darkness are eventually dispelled by a sweetly romantic second subject that would not have been out of place 31 years (or 131 years) earlier. Where the Second Quartet was anguished, this one is wistful, even, in a brief scherzando segment, bemused. Subsequent returns to consonance, in the final movement, have the effect of a sunset after a storm, and the ending is serene. The disc itself concludes with a premiere recording of Novelette , a piece from 1939 written for publication as part of a series of short quartet works by English composers. Its charm and cleverness suggest that Alwyn may have been too hasty in disowning his earlier quartet works.

There's not a lot of recordings of this work, so it should be a relatively simple affair for our resident...novelists... 

Here's what comes up on Presto for recordings:
London Quartet
Maggini Quartet
Tippett Quartet

And here's some on YouTube:
London Quartet:









Maggini Quartet:









Rasumovsky Quartet:


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## Malx

There is also a recording by the Tippett Quartet on Somm, a disc Alwyn shares with works by Doreen Carwithen.


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## HenryPenfold

Just the Maggini set in my collection.


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## Merl

Haven't got this one so should be an interesting listen.


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## StevehamNY

Very much looking forward to the Alwyn #3 this week. I know you cited the Youtube for the Rasumovsky, Black, but just to expand on that, there actually was a recording, as well. (Apparently rare, judging by the price of the CD on Ebay.)


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## Enthusiast

I'll try the Alwyn. I quite like some of his orchestral music but don't know his quartets. This is my opportunity to fix that.

As for the Bacewicz quartet - I continued to be a little underwhelmed by the Silesian recording but tried the Lutoslawski Quartet a couple of days ago and find I am enjoying it quite a lot! As I get to know the work I will probably come to appreciate the Silesian more as well - I often find that a gateway recording opens up other recordings that I had until then not responded to. It is early days but liking something of Bacewicz's is a bit of a breakthrough (I mostly tried the violin concertos earlier) and who knows where it will take me.


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## Merl

Like Enthusiast I know a few of Alwyn's orchestral works and a few chamber pieces but not very well. After playing through the Maggini and London recordings twice I'm still not convinced. Don't get me wrong it's not a 'bad' work but it's just not resonating with me even though it contains most things that I usually like. I'll stay with it and listen to the Rasumovsky recording later (which should be excellently performed) but I'm really not feeling this one at the moment. Hopefully the Razs will convince me.


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## Enthusiast

^ Interesting. I played the London account a while back and found myself loving it! But, with me, a quick attraction like that is often a bad thing as I can find myself boring of the work quite soon after.


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## starthrower

This piece is holding up quite well for me after several listens. In fact I'm becoming more engaged with each pass. The robust sound of the Rasumovsky recording with its ample room acoustics I find very engaging. But I also found the Tippett Quartet's performance of the Adagio quite moving. I started with the London Quartet completely unfamiliar with this piece so I'll have to go back to them again for a second impression. Haven't tried the Maggini's yet.


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## Merl

Well that's more like it! I'm still not convinced but the Rasumovsky blow their competition out of the water, especially the raggy and disjointed Magginis. The playing and sound of 'the Ras' is streets ahead of the competition but I still find this quartet awkward, a bit aimless and very conservative. It is starting to grow on me a little but so will fungus if I stand still long enough. I'll persevere but I'm thinking that if I have to work this hard to try and enjoy something how good can it really be? I refuse to give up yet, though. Soz BA.


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## Knorf

There's probably more fungus growing on you, Merl, than you realize.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> There's probably more fungus growing on you, Merl, than you realize.


Oh Knorfy, you are naughty....... but I like it! :tiphat:

Edit: btw I just listened to Three Winter Poems on the same Rasumovsky recording. What a lovely piece (or pieces). Really enjoyed that.


----------



## annaw

I'm back from my little break and now have officially moved to a different continent. I am a bit late to this but I finally got an opportunity to listen to Bacewicz today. I'm not sure what I was expecting to hear but Bacewicz's 4th sounded surprisingly tonal for a quartet written in the mid-part of the 20th century. Even when compared to composers who were forced to utilise Soviet realism, such as Shostakovich, this quartet seems to me tonally relatively traditional but that is by no means a bad thing in itself (in my opinion, at least).

I am the sort of person who tends to get easily bored during Adagios, Andantes, and slow movements in general. However, I feel that this quartet managed to keep me pretty well engaged and focused throughout. The first movement creates effective tension between slower and quicker passages. I think both Andantes had a sound that I've come to connect with some Soviet composers (that might be because it's in my opinion most evident in Shostakovich's music whom I consider to be the central figure of Soviet music). It's the sort of dark, slightly depressed sound, which is integrated with almost constant tension between different passages. I think this same sound exist in the slower sections of this quartet. 

My personal favourite part of the work was the more playful Allegro giocoso, which brought Nielsen to my mind. I love the tunes and the somewhat folksy sound it has. It's a light-hearted and witty way to end this quartet. 

Anyway, a great pick! I'll soon listen to Alwyn's quartet as well .


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## Malx

All quiet on the Alwyn front, has everyone gone on holiday?

I've listened to a few recordings - the Rasumovsky, Tippett and Maggini Quartets. The usually reliable Maggini's seem to miss the mark with this one. I've yet to make my mind up between the other two, and may not be able to find a clear preferred recording - I have come to this quartet completely blind (deaf) having never heard it before - there is something about the structure I find slightly odd, not sure what specifically. I will get back to it before the end of the week concentrating on the two I felt make a better case for the piece.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> All quiet on the Alwyn front, has everyone gone on holiday?
> 
> I've listened to a few recordings - the Rasumovsky, Tippett and Maggini Quartets. The usually reliable Maggini's seem to miss the mark with this one. I've yet to make my mind up between the other two, and may not be able to find a clear preferred recording - I have come to this quartet completely blind (deaf) having never heard it before - there is something about the structure I find slightly odd, not sure what specifically. I will get back to it before the end of the week concentrating on the two I felt make a better case for the piece.


Malx I think you're being too kind to the Magginis. As I said to Malx earlier (over an impromptu coffee - hope he doesn't mind me mentioning that :tiphat the usually reliable Magginis make a total dogs' dinner of the Alwyn. It's a really uneven and unsatisfactory performance. You'll be glad to hear I have warmed a little to the Alwyn quartet, BA (just a little), and agree with Malx that the Rasumovsky and Tippett quartets are by far the best accounts of this one.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Alwyn seems to be mildly popular on TC, but most of the works of his I have heard have left me cold including the somewhat celebrated Lyra Angelica. This quartet is probably my favorite Alwyn work I have encountered thus far. I find it to be quite lovely, though not hugely distinguished. I think it really could have benefited from a proper finale as it seems rather incomplete, though the hushed and lyrical ending is quite effective. I was truly surprised to find out that this is from 1984 - not many major composers were writing music like this around then. The numbering of Alwyn's quartets is hopelessly confusing - there are apparently sixteen (!) of them, but the 3rd is his final composition (??) I have other stuff to think hard about; not going to try to comprehend that. Anyway, what do I like about it? The nicely fluid sonata form of the first movement - nothing terribly original but very accomplished and attractive. But the second movement is the bread and butter IMO. The initial song theme reminds me of a melancholy, twilight boat cruise through the English countryside, with the murmuring cello accompaniment like the plash of oars. The seamless transition and detransition from the spooky, sinister scherzo seems to herald a haunting look back on different times before the breathtaking transformation of the slow theme into a hauntingly poignant ending of solemn acceptance as the sun sinks beneath the horizon. I'm not sure if I find it to be a work that is worth my prolonged attention - no offense at all to it, but it just seems like a "minor" work - but I'm quite glad I heard it. With a top-notch finale I would be more inclined to rate it higher though. Oh yeah, and the London Quartet definitely have the strangely choppy and anemic Magginis beat on this one.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> .... Oh yeah, and the London Quartet definitely have the strangely choppy and anemic Magginis beat on this one.


Good, it's not just me and Malx who think the Magginis are rubbish in this one.


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## BlackAdderLXX

So the Maggini seemed good enough to me when I had not heard the others, but I agree that the Rasumovsky performance is better.


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## starthrower

I read a couple of reviews that spoke highly of the Maggini / Alwyn CD. And one that compared them with the Rusamovsky performances stating that the former were more adept in the Allegros, and the later in the Adagios, so it's like just someone's opinion, man. But as far as the sound and production goes, the Chandos, and Dutton recordings sound very nice. And I bet the Naxos would sound much better if I had an actual CD to play on my stereo. The Alwyn Chamber Music CD I have sounds superb!


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## Carmina Banana

It is interesting if you play the London and the Rasumovsky side by side. The Rasumovsky comes in at, I'm guessing, 6 dbs higher. It could be the upload, but I wonder how classical recordings are infected by the pop music "louder is better" producing phenomenon.


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## HenryPenfold

Very pleased to have reacquainted myself with Alwyn's 3rd quartet after a long time on the shelf (the CD, not me). 

I very much enjoy the fluctuating but floating moods in the writing, especially in the second movement. I find it very moving, and off and on fall into a ruminative mood while listening.

The Maggini CD has been in my collection for a number of years and I have always enjoyed the performance, still do and struggle to understand how anyone could be at variance with it. But it could be a relative thing, I've heard no other performances. I find the performance compelling and the sound quality very good indeed. 

Very interesting and somewhat chastening to read other people's contrary views.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Good, it's not just me and Malx who think the Magginis are rubbish in this one.


"Great minds think alike" :tiphat:

(there's more to that idiom, but I can't remember the rest of it)


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> "Great minds think alike" :tiphat:
> 
> (there's more to that idiom, but I can't remember the rest of it)


I can .......... :lol:

Now I've listened to both the Rasumovsky and Tippett recordings again between last night and during the day today if I had to favour one it would be the Tippett but I wouldn't be unhappy with either.
Having heard the piece a few times now it has grown on me and while it may not be earthshatteringly different it is very nice quartet to listen to - again I repeat myself and say the concentration on one piece over the week this thread requires, in my case, inevitably leads to a better understanding of the piece and enhanced enjoyment of listening to music in general.


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## HenryPenfold

malx said:


> i can .......... :lol:




..............


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## Merl

I can too............


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## HenryPenfold

:lol:



..............


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## starthrower

Malx said:


> the concentration on one piece over the week this thread requires, in my case, inevitably leads to a better understanding of the piece and enhanced enjoyment of listening to music in general.


That's the unique aspect of this thread and it's been a big plus for me as well. Normally I would just skip around and listen to many different pieces each week but concentrating on one work makes a big difference. It reminds me of being young and having a small collection of albums and CDs that I played over and over.


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## Burbage

It's Friday again so I've done some opinionating, as follows:

Nobody could accuse William Alwyn of not trying. He wrote over a dozen string quartets he didn’t like enough to publish, and then another three, of which this was the last. And, though he dedicated it to the memory of Sir Cecil Parrott, the quartet was mostly written the year before Parrott died, apparently after Alwyn had heard its predecessors recorded. So either he thought them so good he should write another, or so bad that he thought he ought. As I haven't heard them, I can't really say.

Parrott, incidentally, was a long-standing friend of Alwyn but, possibly more importantly, a diplomat and scholar with a particular interest in Czechoslovakia (as it was), who’d translated Hasek’s tales of the Good Soldier Svejk, a cunning buffoon who is specifically and comically Czech, but follows a picaresque literary thread that might connect the Hungarian Hary Janos (musically immortalised by Kodaly) and the English Falstaff (ditto Elgar) with the Spanish Don Quixote (ditto everyone) and the German Baron Munchausen (), if Svejk had any title or rank which, like Gogol’s mistaken inspector, he didn’t.

This is, apart from the link to the dedication, superficially irrelevant. For Alwyn’s approach to his quartets, as opposed to his film music, seems fairly ethereal and absolute. His dedication to the quartet, and his alleged admiration of it as the purest, most intimate, of musical forms, suggests he considered it something of a puzzle to be attempted, if not cracked, rather than something narrative or programmatic, and perhaps his approach was similar to those of his predecessors who’d thrown their genius into the perfection of apparently purely pedagogical studies though, as Godowsky wasn’t ashamed to demonstrate, even those could be shameless showpieces.

This string quartet, however studious it might be, is not a shameless showpiece. And though bits of it, as others have noticed, borrow tricks from the Czech vernacular, it also has a very English flavour, at least in part. Though this might, like Godowsky’s ostensible studies on studies, be more or less than it seems.

I first consciously heard any of Alwyn’s music last week, at a Promenade Concert that I attended, a little against my better judgement, ominously based on “20th Century British Film Music”. I say ominously not because I’m a huge fan of 19th Century British Film Music but because, like Aldous Huxley, I'm old-fashioned enough not to want my senses all hi-jacked at once by a “frightful creation-saving device for the production of standardized amusement”. And, of all the movies I’m not fond of, it’s probably British Movies that have the least appeal. It’s not just the tedious imposition - I don’t really mind suspending disbelief, although Stoke Poges will never be for me a convincing substitute for ancient Alexandra - as much as the depressing expectations. British Cinema, for as much of my life as I’ve known it, has mostly been a body of mawkish propaganda, in which every everyman’s a hero, every toff’s an everyman and every foreigner is beastly. Every teatime in my childhood, the BBC would re-run some upbeat movie about the last war, or the next one, as if the British were uniquely and uniformly plucky and persevering, and every morning I’d toddle to school where, after praying for every teacher with a sniffle, I’d get six hours of concrete evidence that we weren’t.

However, though Alwyn spent much of his time on film music, it doesn’t seem to have done his quartets any harm, if this is a representative example. There is a tendency to assume that a by-the-yard composer must always think by the yard, but Prokofiev had neatly bucked that trend some time before (at the risk of frightening horses, I'd suggest that Shostakovich, who cut his teeth hammering out cinematic tropes in flea-pits, bore deeper scars), and from what I understand of Alwyn, he took his opportunities as opportunities to subtly experiment with musical forms.

That has a benefit, in that his music (all that I’ve heard of it) is interesting. It’s fine, accessible, late-to-neo-romantic stuff that contains reminiscences. It’s clever and listenable and often surprising. It’s logical and hangs together and tells a musical story. And that, more or less, is all I want from a quartet.

Except - and here’s where I have to try to tie everything up in what might be an anti-climactic and underwhelming conclusions, possibly appropriately, given the subject - I’m not sure I know anything about Alwyn. The downside to all this technique is it’s not very distinctive. There’s nothing about this quartet, or the handful of others I’ve heard, or his String Trio (which is well worth hearing) that I could (as yet) say was identifiably Alwyn. I could certainly list a bunch of composers that it wasn’t, and perhaps identify some sort of self-effacing Britishness about it, but that’s as far as I’d go. For all his craft and experimentation, I’m not sure if he doesn’t emerge as a bland sort of Arnold, or a pale and diffident Walton. He comes across as the grey-suited everyman, perhaps, of so many British films. But perhaps that’s exactly who he wanted, or was resigned, to be. Perhaps that’s the point


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## Malx

Marvellous post Burbage.
Your conclusions are pretty much spot on with what I might have hoped to have said had I the wit or ability to write so eloquently.
:tiphat:


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## SearsPoncho

Another excellent post by Burbage! I agree with his last paragraph - I don't hear a distinctive or unique voice. In addition, although the recording I heard was only about 20 minutes, it felt like at least an hour. There were many promising little sections which didn't fully materialize into much. A little Shostakovich here, a little Bartok there (for sure!), some Czech-sounding music, etc. Unfortunately, I was only able to hear it once. I'm sure these first impressions will significantly change in future listening sessions. I think there was too much to fully grasp in one listening session. Nonetheless, a worthy addition to our ever-growing list. Thanks, BlackAdder!


----------



## Neo Romanza

StevehamNY said:


> I totally concur that Chandos and Hyperion have set a higher standard for representing their music with their album covers. I know this isn't pop music, but it still matters!
> 
> I've been mentally putting together a post (I'll wait for a slow day) in which I make the case that an album's cover *literally* makes you hear the music differently. No joke! I'll even use scientific references!


I actually don't think Chandos' covers are that good. Some of them are, but I think BIS and Hyperion has them beat in this department.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I am terribly busy these days and only had time to listen to the Maggini recording. I did not dislike the music but was a bit underwelmed. Having followed part of the discussion, I feel this might be due to the recording rather than the composition. I will try to give it one more shot with one of the recommended recordings.

I continue to greatly enjoy this thread. In the case of little known repertoire, I would appreciate an early heads up on which recording or recordings would be good to listen to first, and which to avoid . This is of course always up to taste but there seems to be quite a broad consensus that the Magginis, in this case, do not quite make the cut.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Sorry for not having posted anything for a while. I wanted to write "I am a man of few words" and be finished, but decided to give some thoughts on the piece. I listened twice to the London Quartet and didn't dislike it, but never felt really inspired by the music. Ok, put it on again...Romantic trying to be modern is one thought. I really don't like to be negative...but it's not so exiting, even though it clearly moves here and there. This not the only quartet I feel I would react differently when played live. Maybe I miss going to a string quartet recital, I've only been to 2  in 25 years...Ok, I like the slower, pianissimo sections. When the music is rhythmic, I wish it was performed with "more bite", meaning uglier!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Choice goes to *starthrower* this week!

starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## FastkeinBrahms

I finally found some time to give this quartet a second shot by listening to the Rasumovsky recording and I am glad I did. I really enjoyed the Alwyn 3rd this time around. Yes, the music seems a bit chameleon-like with its changes in mood, sonorities and styles. You do hear the occasional nods to Janacek and Shostakovich but at almost every corner I hear pastoral sonorities coming through that strike me as decidedly English. The lack of Shosty's angst and Janacek's almost adolescent incandescent emotionality might come across to some as lukewarm. The beautiful and sometimes even humorous playing of the Rasumovsky (love the way they play the fugato part in the middle of the first movement and the blissful quiet ending of the second) nevertheless make listening to this a very satisfying experience. Thank you for proposing this quartet and to those who recommended the Rasumovsky recording!


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## starthrower

> Choice goes to starthrower this week!


I'll have something by tomorrow. Thanks to BlackAdder for introducing the Alwyn quartet. The fact that it isn't distinctly original or innovative didn't diminish my listening enjoyment. And for me it holds up to repeated listening.


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## Carmina Banana

There are a lot of labels that can be applied to styles and techniques of twentieth century music, but I like “user friendly” and “advanced users only.” 
This quartet could probably be played on a faculty recital with three or four good rehearsals and maybe a run through in the hall. It doesn’t require a grant so that players can retreat for three months and figure out how to play it. It is user friendly.

As a listener, I am not opposed to some good post-modern deconstructions, but it feels good to have the baby and the bathwater all in one place. 

I have seen people comment on the various influences in the piece, but what I am hearing is not so much the aggressive world of Shostakovich and Bartok as the exotic and perfumed island of Debussy. 
It could be the long list of film scores that I am looking at on the wikipedia page, but I hear a cinematic quality to this piece. It is a series of beautifully evocative scenes. The transitions are masterful. But I don’t think there is an attempt to pit themes against each other or synthesize them into a transformative experience like many of the “great” classical chamber music composers.

After a couple listens, my big take away is that Alwyn could crank out some gorgeous tunes! I think the opening sets us up to think this is going to be a taut rhythmic experience but it quickly gives way to a languid, lyrical tune fest. If I were into such things, it would be good music to accompany a long bubble bath complete with wine and scented candles. But of course I would never do that.


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## starthrower

This week's selection is quartet No.3 by Arthur Honegger (1892-1955). It's one of just three works for string quartet that he completed during his lifetime. The first was an early work composed in 1917 with the next two written in quick succession in the mid 1930s. The 3rd quartet completed in the spring of 1937 was commissioned by and dedicated to the well known early 20th century patron of the arts, Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge.

No.3 clocks in at under 20 minutes and as far as I know there are only a couple of modern recordings by the Erato Quartet, and the Quatuor Ludwig. Both can be found on YouTube, and the excellent 4 CD set, Honegger: La Musique de Chambre on the Timpani label containing the Ludwig performances is available on Spotify, and Qobuz. I became rather obsessed with the Ludwig recordings of Nos.2 & 3 but ultimately decided on the latter due to the beautiful adagio movement. But I feel like both quartets are pretty strong and contain excellent outer movements as well. It's pretty serious music in line with Honegger's temperament and philosophy about music. He was quoted in a 1920 interview as stating: *"I have no cult of the fair, nor the music hall, on the contrary, of chamber music and symphonic music in all that is most severe and most austere." *

For those listeners not very familiar with Honegger's life and work I've provided this excellent video presentation by composer and music historian, Thomas Little. Although it doesn't touch on the string quartets specifically, I found it to be quite informative and illuminating.










2nd movement: 



3rd movement:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Honegger is a fantastic composer! His 3rd symphony is one of my favorite orchestral works of the century, and the other 4 are also superb. I also enjoy his cello concerto (which I believe I discovered thanks to starthrower) and choral works, but haven't heard any of his chamber music. I love his eclectic blending of jazz influence, modernism, Stravinskian energy, and French elegance.


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## starthrower

I failed to find much in the way of analysis online concerning these quartets but here are a couple links with some brief remarks. The first is a review of the Quatuor Ludwig CD. http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/jun02/Honegger_quartets.htm

And this page contains some remarks concerning the 1st & 3rd quartets.
https://sqblog.jhredguitar.com/uncategorized/arthur-honegger-moving-with-modernity/

The most informative notes are in the liners of the Timpani CD of which I obtained a used CD copy earlier this week. Unfortunately they are not available online as far as I know.


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## HenryPenfold

Having listened to the Alwyn a fair bit over the last few days I thought I'd give my final thoughts before I move on to next week's Honegger third.

Alwyn's third is a composition that I've known for some time but hadn't listened to it in quite a while, so it was nice to be re-familiarised. My view of this work seems to be at odds with the unconscious consensus. I believe it to be a work of enormous merit containing wonderfully refined music that never sounds sentimental even though it was written at the end of a long compositional career and almost at the end of Alwyn's life - and is undeniably his Swansong.

Whilst in overall terms it might be described as a conservative work, it is written very much in a modern style. Two movements, that in different ways, constantly shift between starkly different tempos and alternating moods seamlessly, without ever undermining the coherent structure of the work. In my mind it's a masterpiece of modern (1980s) tonal string quartet writing. I also feel that the general framework and development renders it a strong candidate to be orchestrated. Just a personal view.

I do hope to avoid invidiousness, but I feel some posts on this work have done a disservice to the piece; not to Alwyn or his admirers, but to potential listeners who could be put off. I think some posters prematurely wrote the quartet off.

Anyway, thank you to *BlackAdderLXX* for an excellent choice and the opportunity to enjoy a work that had drifted away from me.


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## Malx

Another quartet that is new to me - this afternoon I have given a first listen to the Ludwig Quartet's recording on Qobuz and will return to it throughout the week.
Looking forward to this one.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Another quartet that is new to me - this afternoon I have given a first listen to the Ludwig Quartet's recording on Qobuz and will return to it throughout the week.
> Looking forward to this one.


Same here. I'll listen in the next few days. I'm knackered having just done 650 miles of driving, a gig and a late night drinking session in just 2 days.

PS. I found a few other recordings

Nikolov Quartet





Taneyev Quartet





Edit: just listened to the Ludwig via Spotify and enjoyed it.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post (there was a day between them, honest). Honegger's 3rd quartet reminds me a little of Ives 2nd. I particularly like the walking cello line in the 3rd movement as I'm a sucker for walking bass lines in most types of music. I'd call Honegger's 3rd quartet 'measured atonality' (you may agree or not) and have warmed to it with subsequent listens. I've still only listened to the Ludwig recording but do intend to have a go at all the available accounts. An interesting pick, ST.


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## HenryPenfold

Currently listening to this performance.

I don't have any recordings in my collection, so it's streaming (Qobuz, my provider, doesn't have it) or YouTube.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Apologies for the double post (there was a day between them, honest). Honegger's 3rd quartet reminds me a little of Ives 2nd. I particularly like the walking cello line in the 3rd movement as I'm a sucker for walking bass lines in most types of music. I'd call Honegger's 3rd quartet 'measured atonality' (you may agree or not) and have warmed to it with subsequent listens. I've still only listened to the Ludwig recording but do intend to have a go at all the available accounts. An interesting pick, ST.


Back after a few days away! Amazing how different city life is, compared to life in the woods with the bears and coyotes. The highlight: a $100 ticket for parking on the wrong side during street-sweeping day. (No, it was not marked anywhere, and yes, I am fighting the ticket!)

Anyway, I'm going to agree with Merl on the "measured atonality" for this piece. And I'll just add that I REALLY like this piece a lot! It's challenging and yet I still hear a coherent sense of _drama_, for lack of a better word. Thank you, ST, for choosing it!


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> Currently listening to this performance.
> 
> I don't have any recordings in my collection, so it's streaming (Qobuz, my provider, doesn't have it) or YouTube.


Henry, a search for *Arthur Honegger musique de chambre integrale* on Qobuz should get you to the Ludwig Quartet, which is on CD4.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Carmina Banana

I'm so glad we are doing this quartet because Honegger was on my list of "I should really look into more of his music sometime." I don't think I would have enjoyed the piece a lot when I was younger, but right now, it hits the spot. It is a great balance of brainy and slightly detached on the outside with the sensual but still not overly personal in the middle. The second movement is one of the most beautiful things I have heard in a long time.
The first movement seems to develop into dissonance and become almost obsessed with it. Harmonically, it might have links to Bartok, but is unlike it in other ways. I would not say it is like Hindemith, who seems almost apologetic about dissonance. 
This whole milieu is very interesting to me. These French early to mid 20th century composers are up to something but I can never put my finger on it.
As for "measured atonality," I don't have anything better right now, but I think there are too many tonal elements overall to qualify for true atonal status. The second movement in particular is full of harmonies that I think we could call either extended jazz-like chords or possibly bitonal. But there are large chunks that do sound atonal.


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## starthrower

I'm not sure why Honegger got lumped in with Les Six, other than his time and place in history? He didn't really fit in and he didn't like Satie which the others admired. His heroes were from the German classical tradition. Mainly Bach, Beethoven, and Wagner. He rejected serialism but pushed the boundaries of tonality. This quartet is packed with plenty of imagination and inventiveness and I'm hearing new musical bits and threads with each listen. Counter melodies, variations and solid development. I wish I new more about music composition and theory but I can only go by ear and keep listening.


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## Carmina Banana

starthrower said:


> I'm not sure why Honegger got lumped in with Les Six, other than his time and place in history? He didn't really fit in and he didn't like Satie which the others admired. His heroes were from the German classical tradition. Mainly Bach, Beethoven, and Wagner. He rejected serialism but pushed the boundaries of tonality. This quartet is packed with plenty of imagination and inventiveness and I'm hearing new musical bits and threads with each listen. Counter melodies, variations and solid development. I wish I new more about music composition and theory but I can only go by ear and keep listening.


I am reading an article right now about Les Six and yes, it sounds like Honegger had very different ideas than other members. Like "The Five," the group had a mission to produce a new music that represented their country, but it was very loose and didn't restrict composers. Milhaud, for instance had his own thing going. 
Having said that, I am hearing a French quality to this quartet, especially the slow movement. It isn't light-hearted like Ibert or tongue-in-cheek like Satie and the like, but doesn't seem deadly serious either.


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## starthrower

This is the introduction to a seven part series in progress. I included the link for the Honegger episode in my first post. It's a half hour and it's packed with a ton of info and history about his life and music.


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## Carmina Banana

As for his relationship with tonality, he said this,
“…I cannot conceive of music fabricated by laws set up in advance. I am neither polytonalist, nor atonalist, nor a dodecaphonist.”


----------



## Enthusiast

I did not post on the Alwyn quartet because I didn't know what to make of it. I listened quite closely a few times and felt that what I was hearing was an "also ran" work. Then a couple of days ago I chose to have it more in the background while I did some writing. Then - when I was not really trying - I found exactly what I felt for the work: affection. It is a work that I warm to greatly even though it may or may not be an inspired work. Thinking back this is also how I relate to those of Alwyn's orchestral works that I like. I think you can hear in the quartet that he was a major film music composer: the work's shifting atmospheres are almost cinematic.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Henry, a search for *Arthur Honegger musique de chambre integrale* on Qobuz should get you to the Ludwig Quartet, which is on CD4.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks Malx. I shall try that. I often forget that Qobuz is indisputably French!


----------



## Merl

After listening to all available versions I found the Ludwigs and the Taneyev recordings rated best for me. They're more alive and conveyed the drama of the final movement better than the competition. I have a slight preference for the Ludwig account due to better recorded sound but the Taneyev are equally committed so they're a close 2nd but there's no bad performances, tbh.


----------



## starthrower

> After listening to all available versions I found the Ludwigs and the Taneyev recordings rated best for me.


BTW, the Honegger quartet starts at the 37:00 minute mark on that YT upload of the Taneyev record.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I enjoy this work with its fiercely original blend of 20th century styles. It is indeed fair to say that the bookending movements are full of Bartokian influence - the unpredictable yet always present rhythmic impetus, the counterpoint, the scraps of folksy melodies buried amidst tangy, tasty clumps of dissonance - but like so many of these composers who owe their influence to another, Honegger still manages to find a distinctive voice. That's another thing this weekly exercise has taught me - composers borrow ideas from one another all the time, but only great ones reinterpret those ideas in fresh ways to add to the great conversation. The second movement is unlike anything we've heard in this thread and is a pensive, elegant beauty. Here is where the jazz style really shows through - the very long viola (I think?) solo after the first few seconds over languorous, meandering chords sounds exactly like an improvisatory saxophone solo with piano accompaniment. The only recording I have on streaming is the Ludwig, who sounded great to me.


----------



## starthrower

> The second movement is unlike anything we've heard in this thread and is a pensive, elegant beauty. Here is where the jazz style really shows through - the very long viola (I think?) solo after the first few seconds over languorous, meandering chords sounds exactly like an improvisatory saxophone solo with piano accompaniment.


That is an amazing melody that is sustained for quite some time. I didn't think of it in a jazz context but you're the second listener to mention this. And the lead / accompaniment structure is obvious. The whole movement reminds me of a lament or an introspective soul searching exercise. It's quite profound.


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## Carmina Banana

Starthrower,
I checked out the video linked about Les Six. I actually really like this guy who does the Classical Nerd series. He's not cute or gimmicky and generally cuts to the chase--very much my style. I don't always agree with everything he says (French composers have always tried to sound "not German"?!? I think you could argue that the French have always had their own style and, at times, the Germans have emulated that style) but I really enjoyed his intro and I'm eager to see some of the other videos in the series.


----------



## starthrower

> Starthrower,
> I checked out the video linked about Les Six. I actually really like this guy who does the Classical Nerd series. He's not cute or gimmicky and generally cuts to the chase--very much my style.


He sounds like he knows what he's talking about and he provides a wealth of information. He's got quite a few videos and he's working on the complete Les Six composers series. His Harry Partch episode is interesting as well.


----------



## Knorf

One of the great joys of music: realizing that no matter how much you know, or think you know, there's so much more out there worth discovering and hearing. I already thought highly of Honegger via his symphonies, of which I collected recordings of all six long ago, even before I owned a single disc of (for example) Chopin's piano music. But I had neglected hearing any of his string quartets, for no particular reason.

So _quelle surprise_, I really dig this quartet! I found the second movement to be especially effective and original, but it's all really excellent. Nice choice for this week!

I listened to the Erato Quartet recording, which is at least good enough to compel me to wish to seek out recordings of the other Honegger quartets.


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## Merl

I spent some time with Honegger's other quartets and if you think this is good then the *2nd quartet *is a killer. It's incessant motion (this must have been inspired by trains) is just addictive. I'll be returning to that one later as it got me from the first note. I've thoroughly enjoyed getting to know Honegger's quartets in general this week. He's a composer who I have limited works for and need to check out more of.

Edit: seems that, like Dvorak, he was obsessed with trains. Lol.


----------



## Burbage

_Friday's turned up, with wearisome inevitability and so I've done this:_

This is the sixth visit we've made to the 1930s (only the 1910s have been more popular). There may be musical and non-musical reasons for that - radio, recordings and talking pictures were becoming part of the lives of the general public, advances in transport made travel more possible, and regressions in politics made it more necessary. Another reason springs to mind, but more of that later. Suffice it to say, it's a crowded field.

Honegger has the awkward distinction of being one of those composers who fall somewhere between major and minor in the alleged canon; as generally serious as Schoenberg, but not as "pickled in fury" as Webern, as versatile as Korngold, as scholarly as Malipiero as perky as Prokofiev as adventurous as Skalkottas, but, for all that, still a well-trained Swiss composer who, for reasons, mixed himself up with a riotous bunch of, sometimes self-taught, French composers; an accident or act of fate that both built his reputation and, possibly, overshadowed it. For the _Maries de Tour Eiffel_, an early surrealist crowd-annoyer, Poulenc wrote his ever-popular Discours du General, and Taillefairre a still-played waltz. Honegger, by contrast, churned out a merry little _Marche Funebre_ that has rarely, if ever, been done for an encore.

Later, especially in _Jeanne d'Arc au Bucher_, but also the symphonies, he wrote more enduring pieces; carefully-wrought, communicative, contrapuntal things that were still serious, but also innovative and characteristic. They're played, but not often. As for his chamber music and his songs and more complicated bits and pieces, they seem to spend most of their time in libraries. He left an embarrassment of riches for any impresario in need of a choreographic symphony or a suite in the old style, and the sound of his name doubtless warms the cockles of theremin-players the world over, but I wonder if programmers don't find themselves, like baffled punters stranded in the biscuit-aisle, facing so many things they're not quite sold on that they'd rather look at cheese.

I'm embarrassed to confess I didn't know he wrote so much for films. But perhaps that's understandable, given the language barrier that divides us. European composers who failed to emigrate have generally been ill-served by Hollywood or, at least, less well-served than the clamouring crowd of actors, producers and directors that seem to get all the fame and funding. Not that international success is always a blessing - as one of us noted a while back regarding Korngold, if you're too successful, there's the risk of being overshadowed by a tide of willing imitators. Though, to my thinking, perhaps Honegger's fate was almost the opposite. His versatility, his ability to weave together styles and influences means his fingerprints aren't so easy to distinguish. He's certainly a deft handler of strings, a spectacular juggler of rhythm and melody and harmony, but it sounds so effortless, for the most part, that his is rarely the first name to spring to mind, unless what you want is a tone-poem about a train.

Which is, I guess, by way of excusing myself for never having heard this quartet (or any of his others) before. I know the three siren/mermaid songs (written a decade earlier and which you'd be hard-pressed to identify as Honegger at first listen) and the 2nd and 3rd symphonies (which came later and are definitive Honegger). But I'm most familiar with _Jeanne d'Arc_, which is astonishing and innovative enough to still be on the margins of the repertoire, despite being both too short to programme alone and imposing unique logistical demands. But in that (as in the songs), echoes of Les Six abound, together with Stravinsky and Faure and Franck. In this quartet, though, we seem to get the unique voice, which is as it should be. Here, he's not writing for a play or a film or a drama; nobody else's tale is being told. It's instead the result of a commission from the omnipresent Coolidge, whose activities were a profound influential on the composers of the time. It wasn't an evenly-distibuted influence - Zemlinsky and Weigl (despite his literal dedications) had to fend for themselves - but it was a hugely creative one, and possibly the reason that so much of this work has survived (even if it stays mostly in libraries).

To my mind, the best composers make music that sounds as if it's breaking some sort of rule and, at the same time, couldn't have been done any other way. I had a similar sort of feeling when listening to this. There are still echoes - the rising motif at the start seems oddly familiar - but there's an inevitable structure to the piece, and a plain-speakingness to the music, shorn of saxophones and theremins, Poulencian tics, Stravinskian outbursts (or Schoenbergian sopranos) that wins me over (almost) as much as the near-contemporary quartet of that other versatile scavenger, Zemlinsky.


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## Allegro Con Brio

If you're still interested, *annaw*, you're up next...

annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Art Rock
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Malx

I've spent a bit more time with Honeggers third quartet than I have with some of the other selections, especially considering I have only listened to the the one recording - the Ludwig Quartet.

I initially wasn't completely taken with the piece but as the week has progressed it has grown in my affections to point now where I am keen to add it to my collection.

Starting with a darkish motif that develops with a motoric pulse and fine sense of rythmn the first movement drags you into a world that is both modern and yet feels to be still slightly tethered to the past. The central Adagio, for me, is the anchor of the quartet around which the other two movements drift and play. The finale is a bit more playful as it strides purposefully towards its conclusion without losing the overall feel of the piece - masterful.

One thing I didn't really get was any real influence from any of Honeggers fellow members of Les Six, no real French sound was apparent to me.

Excellent choice Starthrower - one that is firmly on my radar.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> *One thing I didn't really get was any real influence from any of Honeggers fellow members of Les Six, no real French sound was apparent to me.
> *
> Excellent choice Starthrower - one that is firmly on my radar.


Totaly agree, Malx. I hear few major influences at all but a bit of Ives, tbh, but that's very minor. Definitely don't hear much Gallic influence.


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## FastkeinBrahms

When reading this post, I do not find myself a baffled punter in the biscuit-aisle but rather a gourmet in the delicatessen floor of KdW (or Harrods or similar), not opting for something else but never wanting to leave! Another feu d'artifice of wit and insight, Burbage!


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## Kreisler jr

I had the Erato Quartet's Ermitage disc with the Honegger quartets on my list for ages because it seemed among the overpriced used options the best. I finallly bought it last year or so and was a bit disappointed (by the music) although I had not really known what to expect, I was probably just enticed by the rarity. In any case a welcome occasion to revist these pieces.

Now relistening to all three and especially the 3rd quartet, I am still somewhat hesitant. All three certainly deserved to be better known but it seems also understandable that they are comparably obscure. 
They have lots of gruff energy but in this department Bartok has set a very high standard. They do not sound "French" to me at all, even the slow mvmt. of the 3rd reminds me more of a Bartok "night music" than of Debussy or Ravel. My favorite is probably the 2nd quartet but the 3rd is also a good piece.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Totaly agree, Malx. I hear few major influences at all but a bit of Ives, tbh, but that's very minor. Definitely don't hear much Gallic influence.


If anything Gallic, perhaps someone like Roussel.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Like Knorf, I'd never listened to Honneger's SQ's. It was a real treat! Great choice


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to a really old French recording and greatly enjoyed the Honegger, too. I sense quite a caustic humour in this music. I think the group was called Jean Lespine or something like that.


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## SearsPoncho

Was away for a while. Looking forward to catching up with Honegger, who I already like, and Anna's upcoming choice.


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## SearsPoncho

*Starthrower* : I just listened to the Ludwig Quartet's performance of Honegger's 3rd and enjoyed it very much. I always enjoy Honegger and should listen to him more frequently. I'm also partial to the Ludwig Quartet because of their excellent recording of Chausson's String Quartet, which is paired with an even better performance of Franck's Piano Quintet (Naxos).

I have no idea why, but Honegger's music always reminds me of food, trains or travel (Well, I know why I think of trains). I must admit that was the case with the first movement. It has a flavor I enjoy. A Cezanne Still Life brought to life. I enjoyed every bite. There's a hazy, almost impressionistic fusion between French and German, but, as was previously mentioned, there's something serious or earnest going on. It's in the Finale where he hits his stride, and the polyphony and clarity of the last movement might reveal a more Teutonic inspiration. I also like the folksy elements and rhythms which remind me of Bartok. I don't mean to denigrate the music by merely comparing it to other composers. Such comparisons provide a point of reference and save me from writing a post of several pages after analyzing the score in depth. However, this was an enjoyable and unique work of art which I'm very tempted to "add to [my] Cart."

Another great addition to the list!


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## starthrower

It's unfortunate that there are so few recordings of these quartets. And I don't believe there's anything currently in print. I don't subscribe to any streaming services so I was glad to find an affordable used copy of the Ludwig CD. I can tell you it sounds a lot better than that YouTube upload. As Merl mentioned, if you enjoyed the quartet no.3, give no.2 a listen as well. It's another strong work. Thanks to everybody for listening and commenting on this little known and neglected quartet. It got a bit of well deserved attention this past week. It's Sunday, so I'm looking forward to the next piece!


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## sbmonty

Enjoyed this week's listen. Terrific second movement. Thanks Starthrower!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Annaw has not responded to my PM and may be busy. Hopefully she will be able to come back soon, but for now, if we don't hear from Annaw by the end of the day, would *SearsPoncho* be willing to make a short-notice pick? Thanks!


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Annaw has not responded to my PM and may be busy. Hopefully she will be able to come back soon, but for now, if we don't hear from Annaw by the end of the day, would *SearsPoncho* be willing to make a short-notice pick? Thanks!


Of course. I've been waiting about 7 months(!). Nevertheless, I'll wait because Anna is a regular contributor and I don't want to step on her toes. But the stagecoach turns into a pumpkin at midnight, U.S. time. If no Anna by then, I'll nominate. If she's a little late and wants to proceed, I'll withdraw my selection and save it for next Sunday. In that event, Merl will get a head start on my choice, which will defeat the purpose of the thread: to drive Merl crazy by giving him too many recordings to listen to.:lol:


----------



## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Of course. I've been waiting about 7 months(!). Nevertheless, I'll wait because Anna is a regular contributor and I don't want to step on her toes. But the stagecoach turns into a pumpkin at midnight, U.S. time. If no Anna by then, I'll nominate. If she's a little late and wants to proceed, I'll withdraw my selection and save it for next Sunday. In that event, Merl will get a head start on my choice, which will defeat the purpose of the thread: to drive Merl crazy by giving him too many recordings to listen to.:lol:


I sent Annaw a pm this morning but she hasn't responded yet. SP, you will no doubt choose the SQ with the most number of recordings so I'm expecting a super busy week.


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## HenryPenfold

Agree about the second movement - that hit me on first listen.

I listened to all the performance on the Lins provided, but I felt that the Ludwig was the best (to my ears).

A good choice, thanks Starthrower!


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## SearsPoncho

Is Anna still in Cambridge, Mass., or did she move to another continent?


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## Kreisler jr

The Honegger quartets are an example how much better anglo/scando and usually also germano/austro/russo/slavo music is discographically represented than franco/hispano/italo (helveto is usually better, they have lotsa money but maybe they don't completely count Honegger as their own). With all respect to Alwyn, I think Honegger and his quartets are one tier above. And they are considerably harder to find in a decent recording, much less does one have several choices. Kudos to especially British and Scandinavian ensembles and labels but this does not explain why the French are so tardy... (For the Milhaud quartets there is, I think, only ONE complete recording, by the Quatuor Parisii, oop since many years, impossible to find or unaffordable. I understand that these are not easy sells, but neither can be Maxwell Davies or Alwyn or Gubaidulina or Schnittke or Rihm).


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## Enthusiast

The Honnegger is a wonderful work that got me from the start and kept on getting me. It seems strangely negelected given that there are so few recordings (I only listened to the Ludwig). A great discovery - thanks to Starthrower.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Is Anna still in Cambridge, Mass., or did she move to another continent?


I'll leave it to her to tell you but she's got back to me, now. She's putting her choice up soon so you're safe for now, SP.


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## annaw

SearsPoncho said:


> Is Anna still in Cambridge, Mass., or did she move to another continent?


So, I'm a Finnish/Estonian and I've lived my whole life in Europe. I moved to Cambridge, Mass. just a month ago for college .

I've been extremely busy recently, which is why I have really struggled with staying active on TC. I'll try to fix that this week. I still listen to classical music, of course, but just haven't had time to write about it. As for the next week's string quartet, I had three choices and ended up picking *Verdi's String Quartet in E Minor*. Interestingly, it almost reminds me of the compositional language of the Romantic Slavic composers but it's also fascinating to me that Verdi was able to write such an enjoyable quartet out of nowhere during _Aida_ rehearsals. Verdi was of course an absolutely amazing melodist, which I think is one of the important qualities that made him such a great opera composer. However, as I think many of his most mature operas (e.g. _Otello_) and this string quartet show, he didn't just compose nice tunes but was also able to develop more complex musical structures.

There are quite a few recordings of it too (which I'm sure others might know better than I do myself). Anyway, I hope you all enjoy it!






BTW, I *loved* Honegger's quartet! A very nice new discovery for me!


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## Merl

Nice pick, Annaw. Here's the recordings I listed on my writing pad a few months ago (ironically I was gonna pick it but went with Janacek 2 instead). Its a well recorded quartet (30+ recordings) and lots of the big hitters have performed it. It's a quartet I know well, have a few recordings of and enjoy but I've not heard that many other recordings, other than those I have, so I'm eager to listen to some alternatives and find a better recording (if there is one). 

Melos
Nuovo
Schumann
Vertavo
Salvatore Accardo
Amadeus
Juilliard
Verdi
Enso
Alberni
Quartetto Nous
David
Tetzlaff
Hermes 
Venezia
Britten
Hagen
Kapralova
Di Roma
Michailow 
Amar-Hindemith
Guarneri
American String Project
Ensemble Ottoni
Romantici
Italiano
Leipziger
Brodsky
Di Cremona
Delme
Vogler
Artemis
Vermeer
Amati


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## Allegro Con Brio

Lovely choice! I've never heard this one as I've been too focused in the last few months on digesting Verdi's most renowned operas. I'm eager to see how his melodic genius and stellar dramatic imagination translates to a totally different genre.


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## Knorf

I've been meaning to get to know the Verdi Quartet better, myself. Great choice!


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> I've been meaning to get to know the Verdi Quartet better, myself. Great choice!


Snap! (do you say _snap_ in the US?).

I have had the Hagen Quartet on DG in my collection for a few years and although I might look at it on the shelf, I've never gone on to actually play it!!

As is my wont, I shall stick to the CD that I have in my collection ........


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Snap! (do you say _snap_ in the US?).
> 
> I have had the Hagen Quartet on DG in my collection for a few years and although I might look at it on the shelf, I've never gone on to actually play it!!
> 
> As is my wont, I shall stick to the CD that I have in my collection ........


Thank your lucky stars you have that one and not the Verdi Quartet's performance I just listened to, Henry. The Verdis get it all wrong with an anemic tone and their tendency to chop at the notes and never let the music sing. Such a rough tone won't work in this one. Ghastly.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Thank your lucky stars you have that one and not the Verdi Quartet's performance I just listened to, Henry. The Verdis get it all wrong with an anemic tone and their tendency to chop at the notes and never let the music sing. Such a rough tone won't work in this one. Ghastly.




Phew!

I've played the Hagen through. I thought it was a very good performance. And the music sounds rather modern compared to what I expected (and I emphasise _I_) from Verdi in this genre.


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## StevehamNY

Kreisler jr said:


> discographically


Adverb of the Week Award goes to Kreisler jr.

And thank you, ST, for highlighting a great quartet this week. Agree 100% that both the #2 and #3 are worth finding.


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## starthrower

Some thoughts on this fine quartet by the famous man of opera. 
https://fugueforthought.de/2017/07/01/verdi-string-quartet-in-e-minor/


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Thank your lucky stars you have that one and not the Verdi Quartet's performance I just listened to, Henry. The Verdis get it all wrong with an anemic tone and their tendency to chop at the notes and never let the music sing. Such a rough tone won't work in this one. Ghastly.


Assuming that this is true (and when have Merl's ears ever failed me?), what should the penalty be for a quartet who plays their own namesake's work so badly?


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## Kreisler jr

StevehamNY said:


> Adverb of the Week Award goes to Kreisler jr.


It is not my native language. Is "discographically" such an unusual word or was it wrong?

As for the Verdi, I have three recordings (Hagen, Artemis, Vogler). Last year I listened to all of them, I could not decide to cull any, so I will listen to them again. I am not too fond of the piece, it seems more like a curiosity (but considering the dearth of recordings of some other pieces I mentioned above, I consider the dozens of recordings of that quartet a relative waste...)


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## Kreisler jr

StevehamNY said:


> Assuming that this is true (and when have Merl's ears ever failed me?), what should the penalty be for a quartet who plays their own namesake's work so badly?


And who has the bizarre idea to name a quartet ensemble for an opera composer...?


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## Malx

Mmm - another I don't have in my collection but that is largely down to the fact that when I did listen to it a few years ago I wasn't enthused enough to part with any hard earned for it. 

Now, I am hopefully wise enough to understand that my reaction at this point in time may well be different but with so many to try I'm going to do something unusual for me - I'm going to wait and see what a number of the other participants suggest as decent recordings before jumping in. Merl's reaction to the Verdi Quartet recording makes me wonder if previously I had struck pyrite not gold.

I wait with interest.


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## Kreisler jr

The Hagen Q. is very good but the fillers are really slight curiosities, so if you want to get a disc, I'd rather suggest one with a more substantial discmate, so should the Verdi Q never capture your heart you still have it for completeness and also another piece on the disc.


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## StevehamNY

Kreisler jr said:


> It is not my native language. Is "discographically" such an unusual word or was it wrong?


No, it's used perfectly! It's just an impressive word, and doubly so if this is your second language. (I feel so American with my smattering of college French and nothing else, while so many Europeans can get by passably in their fourth or fifth language.)


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> Snap! (do you say _snap_ in the US?).


Henry, we absolutely have "snap!" in the US. Although it's most effective when you add the right body language:


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## Merl

I had a listen to the *Amadeus* recording this morning and whilst it's elegantly played its all a bit stuffed-shirt for me and the prestissimo was not really very joyous sounding at all, particularly when played back to back with the far more dramatic *Artemis* and *Melos* performances that will certainly make the final round-up (but who knows where?). I wasn't impressed by the *Juilliard*'s recording either but not because of the performance but the rather odd sound balances (one minute close and the next recessed). Thankfully I finished off with the *Schumann* Quartet who made a much better fist of proceedings. I'm going to try and race through these in the next few days as I have a horrendous week at work.

Edit: since I came home I've listened to 3 recordings I have in my collection - the *Alberni*, *Delme* and *Italianos*. All are easily recommendable but some may struggle with the slightly ascerbic string sound of the Quartetto Italian's 1950 mono recording, which sounds a bit scrawny compared to others. It is beautifully played, though.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to Juilliard in my Sony Chamber Music Box and found them brilliant. I think this work, which Verdi clearly intended to demonstrate that he was a master of the contrapuntal form, not just a composer of melodies, benefits from a slightly more sober approach. I did not find the sonic imbalances Merl mentioned on my recording. BTW, the Juilliards do let their hair down when Belcanto cantilenes are on display, especially the gorgeous Vc solo in the third movement. I think this quartet is a work of genius. However, I does not surprise me it never became popular. I guess the overlap between Verdi Opera lovers and string quartet lovers is limited. The former will miss hummable tunes in the quartet, the latter would probably not expect Verdi to be capable of this and will mostly not bother to listen to it. What actually impressed me most was the modernity of the two outer movements.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I listened to Juilliard in my Sony Chamber Music Box and found them brilliant. I think this work, which Verdi clearly intended to demonstrate that he was a master of the contrapuntal form, not just a composer of melodies, benefits from a slightly more sober approach. I did not find the sonic imbalances Merl mentioned on my recording. BTW, the Juilliards do let their hair down when Belcanto cantilenes are on display, especially the gorgeous Vc solo in the third movement. I think this quartet is a work of genius. However, I does not surprise me it never became popular. I guess the overlap between Verdi Opera lovers and string quartet lovers is limited. The former will miss hummable tunes in the quartet, the latter would probably not expect Verdi to be capable of this and will mostly not bother to listen to it. What actually impressed me most was the modernity of the two outer movements.


I'll try and get another source for a listen, FKB. It did strike me as strange that the sound deviated so wildly.

Edit: I tried another source, FKB, and although the weird balances weren't there the close, very dry recorded sound (via Spotify) is definitely not pleasant which is odd for 90s Juilliard recordings that tend to be more reverberant. I don't know if it's been remastered for the Sony Chamber Box but if not it needs to be. Funnily enough I checked online and its mentioned in a very negative review from the BBC magazine.....



> Unfortunately, these new recordings are far from ideal. Both suffer from an unpleasantly close balance....


https://www.classical-music.com/reviews/chamber/verdi-sibelius/


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I had no idea Verdi had written a SQ. Very interesting choice!


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## Merl

I've made my way through all the other available recordings I could (unfortunately I can't get hold of a recording of the Vogler, as I wanted to hear it) and some of the ones that stood out have even had at least 2 plays. A few surprises but some others that weren't immediately recommendable were Di Roma (just OK, ensemble issues) , Michailow (plain and a bit stiff), Amar-Hindemith (dreadful historic 78s with terrible frying pan sound) and Amati (wildly reverberant) didn't make the final cut. The majority of recordings were at least recommendable (good hit-rate). I'll put up a list later.


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## Kreisler jr

I listened to the three recordings I have, Artemis, Vogler, Hagen. It's a interesting piece, but still not a favorite of mine. It's a bit amazing that Verdi could write a very well executed, mostly standard string quartet that maybe apart from a few melodies (mostly the cello solo in the trio, maybe bits of the slow movement) could have almost been written by Mendelssohn (or a similar romantic classicist). However, this also means that if this was an 8th Mendelssohn quartet instead of the singular piece of an opera composer we would probably not take it as something so special.
After one run through (but as I said above, I had listened to all of them in spring) the Vogler seems the least remarkable, it is a bit too straightforward and a bit rigid (I think also the fastest but this is usually only a few seconds). It is by no means bad, just does not feel that special to me. It was one of their first recordings (so Merl, I think you should not go too far out of your way to listen to the Vogler).
The Hagen and especially the Artemis sometimes seem to go a bit too much in the opposite direction with a refinement in sound and other contrasts sometimes bordering on mannerism. Overall, I probably liked the Hagen best, but would restrict the recommendation because the fillers are Puccini's Crisantemi and arrangements from Luisa Miller, especially the latter is nothing I'd not have missed, had I never heard it.
I don't really have a strong opinion how the piece "should go", as I feel rather "neutral" about it anyway.


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## Merl

Oops.... Mistake


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## Merl

I'm posting early this week as I got an early start on this one (I listened to quite a few prior to my pick as I was going to choose it). I also know that the rest of my week is very busy so I've crammed every bit of listening I could up to now.

As regards Verdi's quartet it's a work I've always enjoyed, especially the lovely 'operatic' andantino and bracing prestissimo. Gladly though, over-indulgence this week has actually made me really love this quartet. I know Verdi wrote it as a distraction but I find it a fine work. I still prefer those inner movements but the scherzo, on particular, has really grown on me. As I said in my last post there were few recordings I'd not play again but one recording nailed it for me and I will be getting it. The Di Cremona recording (which is available on most streaming sites) just had that bit more character and attitude that I wanted to hear. Full blog Verdi overview in link below. Alluding to something Kreisler has just said, I think this is one quartet where a lot of character and a bit of mannerism in the performance go a long way. Often if a performance is too mannered or nuanced it will turn me off but I do like some playfulness in this quartet as it has quite a theatrical feel to it, for me.









https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3513-verdi-string-quartet-e.html

PS. Thanks for the heads-up on the Vogler, Kreisler. The Voglers are a weird bunch. I found the same thing with their Dvorak recordings - either excellent or very plain. Never bad, though.


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## Carmina Banana

Kreisler jr said:


> I listened to the three recordings I have, Artemis, Vogler, Hagen. It's a interesting piece, but still not a favorite of mine. It's a bit amazing that Verdi could write a very well executed, mostly standard string quartet that maybe apart from a few melodies (mostly the cello solo in the trio, maybe bits of the slow movement) could have almost been written by Mendelssohn (or a similar romantic classicist). However, this also means that if this was an 8th Mendelssohn quartet instead of the singular piece of an opera composer we would probably not take it as something so special.
> After one run through (but as I said above, I had listened to all of them in spring) the Vogler seems the least remarkable, it is a bit too straightforward and a bit rigid (I think also the fastest but this is usually only a few seconds). It is by no means bad, just does not feel that special to me. It was one of their first recordings (so Merl, I think you should not go too far out of your way to listen to the Vogler).
> The Hagen and especially the Artemis sometimes seem to go a bit too much in the opposite direction with a refinement in sound and other contrasts sometimes bordering on mannerism. Overall, I probably liked the Hagen best, but would restrict the recommendation because the fillers are Puccini's Crisantemi and arrangements from Luisa Miller, especially the latter is nothing I'd not have missed, had I never heard it.
> I don't really have a strong opinion how the piece "should go", as I feel rather "neutral" about it anyway.


Interesting comparison with Mendelssohn. I think one could do a mash up of the first movement of the Mendelssohn violin concerto with the opening movement of this quartet and they would go nicely (being in the same key would help, also). 
I wonder if we could safely say this is a conservative piece for 1873. I think of Mendelssohn as being a conservative composer for his time, and he died before the midway point of the century!


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## HenryPenfold

Listened again to Hagen Quartet DG recording. Lithe, clear and pacey.

I'm sure that if one didn't know in advance it was written by Verdi ...................

Sounds perhaps ahead of its time.

very happy to be promoted in its direction.

Should return to it regularly get a proper grasp.


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## Carmina Banana

I don't know what it says about my personality, but whenever I hear criticisms of a recording, that is the one I need to immediately hear. I checked out the Juilliard recording aforementioned and I will say that I thought this was a top-notch performance but I also agree with Merl that the production was not to my taste.
I have heard other Juilliard recordings like this and maybe part of it is the era, but I can't understand how going into a hyper-soundproof studio, recording a performance with clinical precision and putting that on the market as is, is a good decision. That is never the way one would hear the music in real life. 
If you are not recording on location with an interesting acoustic, then I think you have to do like the pop producers and add a little reverb--create the illusion that we are not in such a sterile environment. Maybe one could make the comparison to photography--just because we can photograph someone in such a way that we see every detail of their face with absolute clarity, it doesn't mean we should.


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## Kreisler jr

I don't think Mendelssohn was very conservative for his time. He was classicist but basically every composer of string quartets was (Liszt or Berlioz didn't write any). He wrote two early quartets strongly influenced by late Beethoven alreadly in the late 1820s (they are still my two favorites of his, even before the "late" f minor) and his op.44 (also containing an e minor work) is a bit more "conservative".
Brahms' op.51 are from the same year as Verdi's, 1873, are also more on the conservative side, but again, almost anyone who wrote chamber music was comparably conservative until the 1890s or so. Whatever Verdi's motivations, I think an overly daring piece would have been contrary to the demonstration of technical ability that seems to have played a certain part. I don't know too many of Verdi's operas that well, so I dare not evaluate commonalities between the quartet and his opera style. To me it seems that he tastefully put only very little opera into the piece (whereas I tend to cringe at some passages of the Requiem (loving some others), especially the "banda-Sanctus").


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> I don't know what it says about my personality, but whenever I hear criticisms of a recording, that is the one I need to immediately hear. I checked out the Juilliard recording aforementioned and I will say that I thought this was a top-notch performance but I also agree with Merl that the production was not to my taste.
> I have heard other Juilliard recordings like this and maybe part of it is the era, but I can't understand how going into a hyper-soundproof studio, recording a performance with clinical precision and putting that on the market as is, is a good decision. That is never the way one would hear the music in real life.
> If you are not recording on location with an interesting acoustic, then I think you have to do like the pop producers and add a little reverb--create the illusion that we are not in such a sterile environment. Maybe one could make the comparison to photography--just because we can photograph someone in such a way that we see every detail of their face with absolute clarity, it doesn't mean we should.


I agree. I think the Juilliards play it fine. It's just the recording for me. There's lots of examples of this across the SQ genre where a quartet play the living daylights out of something then get let down by crappy engineering. There's a few Emerson recordings I can think of for a start where DG's rubbish engineering wreck otherwise excellent recordings. A couple of the Orford Quartet recordings of Beethoven suffer from weird balances and a few of the Vlach quartet recordings on Naxos sound like they were recorded in a cavern. I certainly wasn't trashing the Juilliards who have often finished at or near the top of my previous reviews so please don't think I'm being negative because of some weird antipathy I have towards them (I don't have any issues with any ensemble, they're all capable of putting out killer recordings / turkeys). 

The Mendelssohn comparison is a fair one, to me. Last time I played it before my current lots of listening was, ironically, with some Mendelssohn quartets. I burned both to my car USB at the same time (Mendelssohn - Henschel, Verdi - Delme).


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## starthrower

I'm enjoying the Britten Quartet on Collins Classics. Here's a link for the album which starts with the Verdi quartet.


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## Merl

I've just found another recording from the Borusan Quartet that I missed. If it's as good as their other stuff this should be a good one. ^Agreed about the Britten recording, ST. It's on my recommended list. 

Edit: Just found another two recordings too. One is by the Moravian Quartet (recorded 1969 released on Supraphon 1971) and one from the Geovane Quartetto Italiano (no relation to the Quartetto Italiano) and that one is from the 1989 (rereleased on Claves in 1993).

Edit 2: this Borusan is excellent. I think I need to change my blog reviewí ½í¸²


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## StevehamNY

I suppose I wouldn't envy the art director who has to create a cover for this week's quartet, composed by someone not at all known for quartet-writing, and because it's a one-off it needs to be packaged with something else to fill up a CD, so what's your unifying theme?

When all else fails, of course, just take a usable photo of the players themselves:









Or, if you don't want to go to that much trouble, steal some artwork depicting the usual watery landscape/classical architecture/reclining figures/woman doing something to a flower:









Hell, even the usually reliable Chandos could only come up with either a railing or a smoochy painting for this one:









Seriously, musical friends. Even with so many recordings of this piece, I defy anyone to find one album cover that you wouldn't forget five minutes after seeing it.

Okay, _maybe_ the Tetzlaff, but only because it's kind of a WTF:


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## Merl

That Artemis cover is just stupid and the Brodsky cover makes it look like it's a recording of a cheesy musical, set in the Mediterranean. However, the stupidest cover to this quartet I have is from the Britten quartet, who have greedily used a number of bland covers over the years. The one below (of a box hedge) is surely the worst. The Verdi cover I like the best is from the Delme disc.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I could only listen to the Melos recording, but I enjoyed this quartet, wholly apt, nothing too fancy, standard writing, but enjoyable nonetheless.


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## Roger Knox

Merl said:


> However, the stupidest cover to this quartet I have is from the Britten quartet, who have greedily used a number of bland covers over the years. The one below (of a box hedge) is surely the worst.
> 
> View attachment 159495


This atrocious cover art for the string quartets by Verdi _et al._ looks to me like an arrangement of the candy-coated fennel seeds available in a bowl as you exit Indian restaurants. Maybe they got a deal on fennel which, on the plus side, is said to relieve gas.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> That Artemis cover is just stupid and the Brodsky cover makes it look like it's a recording of a cheesy musical, set in the Mediterranean. However, the stupidest cover to this quartet I have is from the Britten quartet, who have greedily used a number of bland covers over the years. The one below (of a box hedge) is surely the worst. The Verdi cover I like the best is from the Delme disc.
> 
> View attachment 159495


Merl, do you not know the significance of the hedge and the reason why it was chosen for this recording?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Sorry for my increasingly dwindling presence on here; as a busy student I find myself with less and less time to really get into the weekly selection. I totally agree with AAME’s assessment of this work - not particularly original or new sounding, but very well crafted and it flows very nicely; kind of a mix of Schubert and Mendelssohn with an unmistakable Italian zest (have we had any other Italian quartets in this thread?) There is quite a lot of repetition that I wasn’t a fan of and this is a far cry from the great trailblazing Verdi of the Requiem, Otello, and Don Carlo (quite a bit of Falstaff in the last two movements though…) but it meets the ear very pleasantly and sustains attention. I’ve only heard Merl’s favorite Di Cremona, which is dispatched with remarkable fire and imagination.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Merl, do you not know the significance of the hedge and the reason why it was chosen for this recording?


No, pray tell, Mr. Henry so I may look foolish. ut:


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## Carmina Banana

Merl,

I checked out the Borusan on your advice. Overall, it is one of my favorite recordings so far. However, there are a couple things that turned me off. 
When they play that little chromatic scale that serves a transition to the B theme in the first movement there is a very strange rubato. Instead of slowing down slightly as indicated, they speed up and then immediately slow down. I don’t get it. 
My other little complaint is in the Prestissimo. At first, I thought there was a measure with an extra beat after the first phrase (measure 10). I checked the score. There isn’t. Many groups take a little time here, so I am assuming there is a logistical reason. But the Borusans really lean into it and, like I said, simply rewrite the measure to include another beat. 

My favorite part of this quartet is the Prestissimo movement. It is like an exciting ballroom dance from Traviata (or maybe the gypsy camp from Trovatore) And then the Baritone sings a beautiful aria. Then we all go back to the ballroom (or gypsy encampment). This is really making want to listen to a Verdi opera.


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> No, pray tell, Mr. Henry so I may look foolish. ut:


Does this have something to do with the color green?


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## Roger Knox

Carmina Banana said:


> Does this have something to do with the color green?


Oh, dear. My bad, too. 
And no ordinary joe, either. RIP G.V.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> Merl,
> 
> I checked out the Borusan on your advice. Overall, it is one of my favorite recordings so far. However, there are a couple things that turned me off.
> When they play that little chromatic scale that serves a transition to the B theme in the first movement there is a very strange rubato. Instead of slowing down slightly as indicated, they speed up and then immediately slow down. I don't get it.
> My other little complaint is in the Prestissimo. At first, I thought there was a measure with an extra beat after the first phrase (measure 10). I checked the score. There isn't. Many groups take a little time here, so I am assuming there is a logistical reason. But the Borusans really lean into it and, like I said, simply rewrite the measure to include another beat.


I did notice the quirk in the first movement (but couldn't have explained it as eloquently as you, CB) and admit that is a strange decision but tbh I was so engrossed in the performance that I didn't even notice the one in the prestissimo. The Borusans are a quirky bunch and so a little artistic licence is expected. There's a couple in the accompanying Mozart performance on that disc too (also a very fine and powerful performance). I think I can forgive the the odd extra interpretive touch as long as the interpretation doesn't then end up sounding too nuanced (the Dorics can sometimes be guilty of the same). I think the expression 'lean into it' was a perfect description. As I said about the Di Cremona performance too (that's well characterised, as well) this is a quartet where a bit of drama doesn't go amiss for me and where I enjoy some poetic license. It needs it and sounds better for it. Listening to the Amadeus recording again and comparing and contrasting against my very top picks (to check if I was being too harsh) the difference is big. I want to hear passion here. I, too, love that prestissimo and it should be exciting.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> No, pray tell, Mr. Henry so I may look foolish. ut:


I was asking if you're in the same boat as me, I don't know either. :lol:


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## Kreisler jr

The Tetzlaff et al. seems to be a picture of the former power plant where the Heimbach festival where it was recorded live, takes place.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraftwerk_Heimbach
https://www.spannungen.de/de/das-kraftwerk.html

While the Hagen cover has basically just a picture of the ensemble, they apparently made it so to look like "a night at the opera" with the old style red seats and evening dress etc. which is a nice touch.


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## Burbage

It's Friday and so, despite a busy week, I've done this:


It’s an awkward dawn in Naples. Verdi, now of a certain age, gets up early and paces about his room, nervously. Aida is going well, or would be if the prima donna hadn’t gone sick, but he has money in his pocket and nothing much on the horizon. There’ll be a requiem (too late for Rossini) to be repurposed (too late for Manzoni), but that’s not in the diary yet so, for the past couple of weeks, he’s been working on something a bit different and tonight will be the first performance. The audience, selected by Verdi from his own friends, can be relied on to be polite. And the musicians, also with time on their hands, have diligently rehearsed, didn’t ask many questions and were grateful for the extra money, so Maestro Verdi is confident they’ll do it justice, though he wonders if there aren’t more auspicious days than Aprils Fools’. 

But tosh to superstition. He’s never been worried about that, despite everything. What luck he’s had, he’s made himself, with the sweat of his own hands or back or brow or whatever, despite his humble origins. And look what he’s achieved, both musically and politically. Italy is now united, purged of the parasitic royalty and grasping rentiers who’d, for so long, oppressed his fellow peasants. That, he likes to think, might not have happened if he hadn’t, time and time again, campaigned against the well-heeled classes by writing shows that they’d enjoyed. He’d even, albeit briefly, become a member of Parliament (though, sadly, one too busy to attend any meetings), where he might have continued to press the case of the Italian peasant (if he’d not been too busy etc).

And look how he’s built up the family home. What was once practically a hovel (albeit one that also served as an inn, grocery and post-office) in Busetto is now a sprawling, productive estate. It’s not as well-managed as he’d like, and he’s sure he’d do a better job, if only he had the time and the knowledge and the strength and wasn’t prey to those discerning sorts of nerves that make such work impossible for people of his station in life. But, despite the errors of his stewards and the indolence of the peasants, it’s bringing in good money all the same and, again, all thanks to his ceaseless work. Despite his humble origins.

Every ointment has its fly, though, and a few things still rankled. One of which was a crack from Boito about his writing being formulaic, as if all he’d done in his life was churn out operas to other people’s words. Although a list of his published works might give that impression, he’d done many hard yards in his youth, writing hundreds of pieces for the church choir and town band, before that miserable conservatory in Milan had rejected his application and he’d been forced to find private tuition. But, despite all this writing, and tuition and eager study, and his unconquerable success in opera houses across the world, he’d never been taken quite as seriously as he’d liked by those serious critics (and conservatories) who idolised the Germans, with all their difficult, serious chamber music. 

And, of course, Wagner, whose harmonic sophistry had led some to consider Verdi’s operas as a few jolly tunes sung to a rumpty-tumpty accompaniment, with brass-band choruses taken for political anthems. As if Preziozilla hadn’t done more in twenty minutes than Siegfried could manage in eight hours. But never mind. At least Verdi could pay his bills. And, besides, his music wasn’t nearly as elementary as it sounded. There was craft in that. There was counterpoint beneath those drinking songs, daring harmonies in the duets and those terzetti weren’t accidental, but came from a thorough study of the great quartets.

So, while he’d found himself at a loose end, he’d started to sketch an actual quartet, the most serious music of all, just to see if it might work. Sure, he’d not had any words to set, which might rob a work of a narrative, but that was just a matter of imagination and anyone who could sell a legend about Egypt to the actual Egyptians could hardly be lacking in that. And, if it didn’t, that didn’t matter. Retirement might have its attractions, after all.

But, as he sketched, he’d found he’d not left Busetto so very far behind. Strings weren’t the same as a choir, exactly, but not far off, and music was what he understood. Writing a quartet wasn’t much different to any other day at the office. It didn’t matter how big the canvas or small the voices. It was all music, and that’s what Verdi did, with as much virtuosity as any motif-hammering German or neuraesthenic French. It just happened that, for most of his career, he’d found large, wealthy crowds paid better than, however much he loved them, the ungrateful, late-paying tradesfolk of Busetto. But now it’s done. And Verdi paces about his room, nervously.


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## StevehamNY

^ Burbage, your Friday posts continue to be a highlight! You actually made me go look up the history of April Fool's Day this time, but it does indeed go all the way back (disputedly) to Chaucer and undisputedly to the early 1500's. 

(Your trivia for today: As widespread as April Fool's Day is around the world, did you know it's an official holiday only in Odessa, Ukraine?)


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## Merl

Burbage said:


> ... But, as he sketched, he'd found he'd not left Busetto so very far behind. Strings weren't the same as a choir, exactly, but not far off, and music was what he understood. Writing a quartet wasn't much different to any other day at the office. It didn't matter how big the canvas or small the voices. It was all music, and that's what Verdi did, with as much virtuosity as any motif-hammering German or neuraesthenic French. It just happened that, for most of his career, he'd found large, wealthy crowds paid better than, however much he loved them, the ungrateful, late-paying tradesfolk of Busetto. But now it's done. And Verdi paces about his room, nervously.


Aida and quartets weren't the only things on Verdi's mind. The home improvements in Busetto were impressive but the outdoor space was far from ideal and something was needed to tame the unruly bushes and boxes bordering the refurbished estate. Verdi took the this task on himself, at first hacking furiously at the explosion of foliage and then more tenderly as he began shaping then in more intricate designs. As he worked his obsession grew as slowly and surely as box. Every June, as the cutting season arrived, dreams of Egyptian landscapes and Ethiopian princesses would cool and his night time mind would be filled with visions of topiary . At dawn, with wine in hand and still in his monographed Verdi PJs, the snipping began. Tiny serpentine shapes emerged with giant spheres, stars, spirals and cones. Some began to look increasingly like green pyramids. Squares of green box proliferated across the whole garden with the composer becoming smitten by the bug and creating small geometric patterns across the whole area. Other designs looked indescribably weird. Dreams do not always translate well into hedging. Then, snip, snip, snip, came a sphinx, then a volcano with lumps of box, cascading down the sides. The obsession consumed Verdi more than any other project, whether musical or horticultural. He even considered a new opera with a story revolving around Egyptian Kings and hedging entitled 'Rameses the Gardener', the tale of a pharaoh murdered by jealous contestants in the yearly Cairo Flower and Shrub Show.... 

_*some poetic license may have been present in this story, Henry.

_


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## Allegro Con Brio

Quick reminder - *SearsPoncho* will get to choose this week.


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## Enthusiast

I can't say that the Verdi quartet thrilled me - as so much of his music (operas) does - but it is likeable enough. I'm sorry but I am not sure I have much more than that to say. I am, anyway, glad to have had a reason to get to know it a little.


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## Kreisler jr

That's similar to what I wanted to express further above. It is quite remarkable to have such a piece from Verdi at all but I don't think it is a particularly great string quartet, like some other quartets from composers who wrote only one. It's better than real oddities like Wagner's symphony, though.


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## SearsPoncho

We haven't had any Bartok since I joined this thread. To paraphrase MC Hammer, It's Bartok-time!

This week's selection: *Bartok's String Quartet #3*
The recording I listen to: Takacs Quartet

1. Prima Parte: Moderato
2. Seconda Parte. Allegro
3. Ricapitulazione della prima parte: Moderato - Coda: Allegro molto

All of Bartok's string quartets are intense and somewhat difficult, and these qualities reach their zenith in the 3rd and 4th String Quartets, which are my favorites. The 3rd is more concentrated and concise than the sprawling 4th, clocking in at approximately 15 minutes; the Second Part and Coda could be called "Short Ride In A Fast Machine," to borrow John Adams' terminology. The brief, threadbare thematic material of the first two parts, featuring "modern" dissonance and peasant folkdance, is given an imaginative series of head-spinning treatments and variations before the following two recapitulations furiously recall them and the music collapses.

Like much of Bartok's music, there is an emphasis on contrasts: aggressive, disorienting dissonance and genial folk music; classical contrapuntal mastery and 20th Century harmony; chaos and tranquility. The palette of aural colors and sonorities is vast. In the 3rd and 4th string quartets, Bartok expanded the variety of sonorities that a string quartet could produce, and in doing so, made arguably the greatest contribution to the string quartet genre since Beethoven. Furthermore, the manipulation of rhythm, timbre and dynamics within this context is often unsettling, yet always exciting to this listener.

I initially bought the Novak Quartet cycle, but I didn't really take the plunge into this music until I purchased the Takacs Quartet's set. The meaty, beaty, big and bouncy performances of the Takacs are well-recorded and suit the music perfectly. They're a fine entree into these 20th Century masterworks. There are many other Bartok quartet cycles with sterling reputations, including the Tokyo, Julliard, Emerson, and other Hungarian quartets.

Here's the Takacs Quartet to kick things off. I believe the Finale is from a playlist, so if you don't stop it at the end, it will just go on to play the rest of the cycle.


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## Kreisler jr

Great choice! I always found 4-6 much easier to take in than 1-3 so it's a welcome occasion to listen to #3, maybe the toughest of all of them and one of the toughest Bartok pieces for me. It's short enough that I should be able to get through all of my recordings, even twice if necessary: Juillard/Sony (1960s), Hungarian/DG, Tokyo/DG, Hagen/DG (Newton).


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## sbmonty

The Verdi quartet was good to get to know. I hadn't heard it before, though I was surprised when I first read he had written one and have been meaning to give it a listen. Thanks.

The Bartók cycle is another that I really want to spend some time with. This will be a good opportunity. I'll start with the Hungarian String Quartet.


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## Merl

Bartok 3 should be an interesting discussion. I have a few I really rate at home but they'll all start on an even footing when I start my comparative listening. Loads of the big-hitters here to investigate (ABQ, Takacs, Vermeer, Vegh, Belcea, Endellion, Emerson, Heath, Tokyo, Hagen, Budapest, Alexander, Tatrai, Ebene, Jerusalem, Kronos, etc). There's somewhere near 50 recordings of Bartok's shortest quartet (many are around 15-16 minutes). The Juilliards seem to have recorded it multiple times (I'm up to 4 that I can see at this moment but there may be more). Although it's not my favourite Bartok quartet (I do love the 4th), and was the last that I truly 'got', it's still a fine quartet and is that nice mix of folk music, quirky rhythms and dissonance that make Bartok's quartets so enjoyable and mysterious. Nice pick, SP.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I remain firm in my conviction that Bartok wrote the finest string quartet cycle of the 20th century, barely topping out Shostakovich for that prize (whose cycle remains the more impressive achievement, no doubt about that, but I find Bela's works slightly more lovable), as well as some of the jewels of all classical music. However, like others, I do find the 3rd a bit of a tough nut to crack, though a marvel of tight construction and formal perfection. My preferred ensembles for these works have been the Takacs on Hungaroton, Hagen, Tatrai, and Hungarian in that order.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Bartok 3 should be an interesting discussion. I have a few I really rate at home but they'll all start on an even footing when I start my comparative listening. Loads of the big-hitters here to investigate (ABQ, Takacs, Vermeer, Vegh, Belcea, Endellion, Emerson, Heath, Tokyo, Hagen, Budapest, Alexander, Tatrai, Ebene, Jerusalem, Kronos, etc). There's somewhere near 50 recordings of Bartok's shortest quartet (many are around 15-16 minutes). The Juilliards seem to have recorded it multiple times (I'm up to 4 that I can see at this moment but there may be more). Although it's not my favourite Bartok quartet (I do love the 4th), and was the last that I truly 'got', it's still a fine quartet and is that nice mix of folk music, quirky rhythms and dissonance that make Bartok's quartets so enjoyable and mysterious. Nice pick, SP.


Do you have The New Music Quartet? And The Signum Quartet? For me it will be interesting to revisit Diotema, which I reacted negatively to but it may have been my mood. I just noticed this

https://www.wowhd.co.uk/ragazze-quartet-bartok-bound-vol-2/723385424215


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Do you have The New Music Quartet? And The Signum Quartet? For me it will be interesting to revisit Diotema, which I reacted negatively too but it may have been my mood. I just noticed this
> 
> https://www.wowhd.co.uk/ragazze-quartet-bartok-bound-vol-2/723385424215


No, I have neither, Mandryka.  However I can listen to the Signum recording courtesy of Spotify.


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## Mandryka

It’s nice how the old favourites are still coming out good for me - Tatrai, Juilliard 1963. Also enjoyed dipping into Hagen.


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## Merl

I've got a lesson observation and an important meeting tomorrow. After that I'll give this my full attention. Last few weeks of term are always horrific. The Takacs' later recording is usually my reference in this one but I'm looking forward to exploring some unfamiliar ones.


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## HenryPenfold

Damn, I had Bartók 3 lined-up well in advance of my go next Sunday!

Great Choice SearsPoncho :tiphat:

I'm trying to circumnavigate all the Covid tests, vaccine crap, government bureaucracy and get my asre to Istanbul on Tuesday and Bodrum after, so I shan't be able to give much time to what is one of my all-time favourite string quartets.

I'll also need to find the time to get a substitute work for my choice.


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## SearsPoncho

I believe most recordings of this will be very good. It's very difficult technically and musically, and I wouldn't expect any quartet to even make an attempt unless they have the goods, so to speak, to bring it. Additionally, there are only 6 Bartok quartets, and most that record it will probably just proceed to record the whole cycle. If an ensemble commits to recording all Bartok's quartets, they must be great and I would expect they would take the project very seriously. 

As for interpretation, this reminds me of that saying, "Go big, or go home." They better go big. Audio quality is also a big factor here, considering all the unusual effects Bartok demands of the string players.


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## starthrower

I watched/listened to a live recording by the Vision Quartet who perform it from memory and standing up with the exception of the cellist. I find the entire piece quite captivating from the first note to the last. I have three complete cycles by the ABQ, Takacs, and Belcea Quartets and I'm on the the Takacs next.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I've got a lesson observation and an important meeting tomorrow. After that I'll give this my full attention. Last few weeks of term are always horrific. The Takacs' later recording is usually my reference in this one but I'm looking forward to exploring some unfamiliar ones.


I have the Takacs, Vegh, and Arcadia, and already know I'll thoroughly enjoy this week because, you know, Bartok. But didn't the Arcadia come through as a surprise hit for you on the 4th, Merl? (It would be so nice if you could easily go back and look through all of the quartets done in the past... Oh wait, you can!) Point being, I'm wondering how well they'll do on the 3rd. As much as I love the Vegh keeping it Hungarian and the Takacs playing on their usual high level, I did pick up the young Arcadia based on your recommendation and never regretted it!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I have the Takacs, Vegh, and Arcadia, and already know I'll thoroughly enjoy this week because, you know, Bartok. But didn't the Arcadia come through as a surprise hit for you on the 4th, Merl? (It would be so nice if you could easily go back and look through all of the quartets done in the past... Oh wait, you can!) Point being, I'm wondering how well they'll do on the 3rd. As much as I love the Vegh keeping it Hungarian and the Takacs playing on their usual high level, I did pick up the young Arcadia based on your recommendation and never regretted it!


The Arcadia recording of the 4th was great, Steve, but just cos I rated their 4th as a fave doesn't necessarily mean the same will hold true for the 3rd. Funnily enough the Arcadia 3rd was one of the first ones I burned to my USB for listening this week, along with 4 or 5 others (the Takacs being amongst those). Looking forward to hearing the Jerusalem in this one.


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## Malx

Firstly apologies to annaw, I didn't get around to Verdi's quartet - last week my listening was focussed mainly on orchestral recordings and later in the week when I intended getting to the quartet things just conspired against concentrated listening, and if I'm honest having previously been less than impressed with the piece the impetus to get to it was limited.

This weeks choice of Bartok I have four recordings on the shelves and I pretty much know what my preferred selection will be - but I will listen to them all with an open mind/ear and see what I conclude.


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## Enthusiast

I have four and raise Malx another 4 ... and I'm afraid I can't remember how they compare in this work. I'm looking forward to finding out. I think I like them all but some offer more than others.


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## Merl

Nightmare day over so I got to listen to the *Arcadia* and *Auryn* recordings, before. I expected much of the Arcadia and little of the Auryns (who usually create a sweeter, more blended sonority in their recordings) but the Auryn's impressed me in this one (as did the Arcadias). They really get the rhythms well and dig in a lot more than I expected but there's still plenty of others to listen to yet. The Arcadias are slightly more laid back in their approach but they produce some fine playing and nothing seems forced or unnatural. I'll be revisiting both of these again before I sum up. Both recordings easily recommendable though.

Edit: I've just listened to the *Heath* quartet, who didn't make the cut in my review of the 4th a while back. The reviews of this set were glowing yet I have a similar problem to the 4th recording, here. It's not the playing (which is superb) but their delivery which I find a little light. Is it just me? Don't get me wrong, but compare the power of the *Amati* or *Ebene* quartets here and you'll hear what I mean. It's not a heavy criticism, per se, but I usually want a bit more heft in most of my Bartok (but not always). The mystery is there but are the dynamics? I'm still not convinced. I've not heard the whole set yet so I'm not going to generalise on it. I'd be interested in what others think. It may just be me. What are your thoughts on the Heath performances, Mandryka?


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post but I've had an hour spare so crammed 4 in. The *Parrenin*'s old mono account is interesting but the sound is intensely boxy and distant and the *Fine Arts *don't give it enough welly for me. The *Signum* and *Schumann* quartets handle the twists and turns much better for me and both have lovely sound.


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## starthrower

Per SearsPoncho:



> The brief, threadbare thematic material of the first two parts, featuring "modern" dissonance and peasant folkdance, is given an imaginative series of head-spinning treatments and variations before the following two recapitulations furiously recall them and the music collapses.


A good summation in one sentence of this remarkable quartet. Although it took about half a dozen listening sessions to get a fairly tight grasp of what's going on, it's now making much more musical sense to me. And I have to say that some of the older recordings including the Hungarian Quartet, and Julliard 1963 I find more appealing than the high powered Takacs performance. At least today, anyway. This quartet has enough drama and intensity written into the score so it doesn't need to be overdone in performance. The Hungarians are a bit more down to earth for my taste although I can understand the appeal of modern recordings.

I found the write up on the usually reliable Fugue For Thought blog a bit unfocused but it did point out that reading about this quartet doesn't do much good until you've listened to it several times, and that proved true for me. There is a good analysis at the YT Hungarian Quartet upload, and at the Brentano sight.






https://www.brentanoquartet.com/notes/bartok-quartet-3/


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Nightmare day over so I got to listen to the *Arcadia* and *Auryn* recordings, before. I expected much of the Arcadia and little of the Auryns (who usually create a sweeter, more blended sonority in their recordings) but the Auryn's impressed me in this one (as did the Arcadias). They really get the rhythms well and dig in a lot more than I expected but there's still plenty of others to listen to yet. The Arcadias are slightly more laid back in their approach but they produce some fine playing and nothing seems forced or unnatural. I'll be revisiting both of these again before I sum up. Both recordings easily recommendable though.
> 
> Edit: I've just listened to the *Heath* quartet, who didn't make the cut in my review of the 4th a while back. The reviews of this set were glowing yet I have a similar problem to the 4th recording, here. It's not the playing (which is superb) but their delivery which I find a little light. Is it just me? Don't get me wrong, but compare the power of the *Amati* or *Ebene* quartets here and you'll hear what I mean. It's not a heavy criticism, per se, but I usually want a bit more heft in most of my Bartok (but not always). The mystery is there but are the dynamics? I'm still not convinced. I've not heard the whole set yet so I'm not going to generalise on it. I'd be interested in what others think. It may just be me. What are your thoughts on the Heath performances, Mandryka?


Heath make the quartet fluid, balanced, civilised, agreeable and congenial. They play Bartok like he's an English gentleman.


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## Enthusiast

^ You mean he wasn't?


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## Malx

Having spent a few hours this morning listening and drinking a coffee or two here are some thoughts on what I have listened to so far.

*Euclid* - Excellent sound balance between the instruments, controlled attack and good textural clarity - first rate!

*Chiara* - Played from memory, impressive and gives an element of spontaneity, good dynamics in clear sound although instruments could use a bit more air round them.

*Takacs* - Decca recording, long been a favourite. A bit more of a resonant acoustic adds a bit of weight, good balance of attack and texture, folk influences a bit more evident.

*Ebene* - Great attack but perhaps at the expense of the flow of the piece - technically assured but to my ear somehow a little disjointed.

*Schumann* - I liked this, spikey but not overwhelmingly so they seem to get the balance between attack and flow about right - very nice.

*Emerson* - I played this one twice but it just didn't click for me - great clarity in sound/texture and very assured playing but somehow at a distance from the essence of the music. Normally I'm not anti Emerson but this didn't work for me.

*Belcea * - Understated, controlled playing, precise maybe lacking a bit of folkiness not the best of the bunch listened to today but a valid alternative view.

*Diotima* - Excellent - well balanced graduations of dynamics/attack/flow - spot on - I loved it.

I have the Belcea & Takacs on my shelves but I streamed all the above from Qobuz so none had a sound advantage.


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## starthrower

> Having spent a few hours this morning listening and drinking a coffee or two here are some thoughts on what I have listened to so far.


Thanks, Malx! I really like the Schumann, and Diotima performances. Also listened to the Euclid's. Listening through headphones the Schumann recording sounds amazing! Best overall balance between the the four voices. Really good cello sound with no boom or murky texture. The dance motif from the second movement has become a major earworm since yesterday afternoon.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Having spent a few hours this morning listening and drinking a coffee or two here are some thoughts on what I have listened to so far.
> 
> *Euclid* - Excellent sound balance between the instruments, controlled attack and good textural clarity - first rate!
> 
> *Chiara* - Played from memory, impressive and gives an element of spontaneity, good dynamics in clear sound although instruments could use a bit more air round them.
> 
> *Takacs* - Decca recording, long been a favourite. A bit more of a resonant acoustic adds a bit of weight, good balance of attack and texture, folk influences a bit more evident.
> 
> *Ebene* - Great attack but perhaps at the expense of the flow of the piece - technically assured but to my ear somehow a little disjointed.
> 
> *Schumann* - I liked this, spikey but not overwhelmingly so they seem to get the balance between attack and flow about right - very nice.
> 
> *Emerson* - I played this one twice but it just didn't click for me - great clarity in sound/texture and very assured playing but somehow at a distance from the essence of the music. Normally I'm not anti Emerson but this didn't work for me.
> 
> *Belcea * - Understated, controlled playing, precise maybe lacking a bit of folkiness not the best of the bunch listened to today but a valid alternative view.
> 
> *Diotima* - Excellent - well balanced graduations of dynamics/attack/flow - spot on - I loved it.
> 
> I have the Belcea & Takacs on my shelves but I streamed all the above from Qobuz so none had a sound advantage.


Are you sure I didn't write this Malx, LOL? I echo some of your recommendations and raise you the *Engegard* which is a must hear. There's so many very special ones that this is gonna be like splitting spider hairs. Btw, I rather liked the *Emersons* in this one. There's an assurance in their playing I enjoyed. The *Ebene* is definitely the Black Sabbath of the Bartok 3s and may prove marmite for some, the *Euclid* is exceptional and the *Schumann* (which I've listened to twice already) has sound to die for. I'm currently playing through the *Tatrai* after just thoroughly enjoying another 2 older recordings that will be in my final round-up. .


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## Merl

Two accounts that didn't wholly convince me were the *Jerusalem* quartet, who don't seem to get to the heart of the folk textures and especially the *Belceas* who didn't grab me at all. Only a few to listen to and I'll blog my thoughts.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I only have the Emersons and they really got my attention with their ferocious intensity, combined with incredible precision. There is a moment towards the end of the first "movement" where I felt they brought out a sense of giddy anxiety almost hard to listen to. A great energetic performance. I am sure that there are many others that are great or even better. However, this recording totally does it for me.


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## SearsPoncho

*Steve*: I'm disappointed we didn't get an MC Hammer GIF from you. I thought it was a sure thang. At least give us a Rick James bass line. You'll have to play a Rickenbacker.

I found very little online information about Bartok's 3rd. There's a decent amount of substantive info about the 4th, but not the 3rd. The liner notes from the Decca/London Takacs Quartet set is also very brief.

As for recordings, I'm very interested in the final summations of Merl and others (Mal gave us an excellent summary). How about the Hungarian Quartet? Tokyo Quartet? I'm also very interested in hearing about some of the younger ensembles that made more recent recordings.


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## Merl

I got through the 3rd Quartet quite quickly this week due to its short running time and heard nearly every recording of it (disappointed not to hear the Parkanki quartet though). With so many very good ones I even omitted the mere recommendable this time (and there were some nice accounts in there). My final blog post is linked below and I'd be interested to hear what you've enjoyed. No outright winner for me this week but a host of top performances which I'm glad to say are a nice mix of the old and newer. Hope y'all find something to suit but I'd urge you to try the Engegard recording if you've not heard it. Really impressed me.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3515-bartok-string-quartet-3-a.html


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> *Steve*: I'm disappointed we didn't get an MC Hammer GIF from you. I thought it was a sure thang. At least give us a Rick James bass line. You'll have to play a Rickenbacker.


Wait, what?

(I know I'm working too hard this week, but this one got by me.)


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## Malx

Merl said:


> I got through the 3rd Quartet quite quickly this week due to its short running time and heard nearly every recording of it (disappointed not to hear the Parkanki quartet though). With so many very good ones I even omitted the mere recommendable this time (and there were some nice accounts in there). My final blog post is linked below and I'd be interested to hear what you've enjoyed. No outright winner for me this week but a host of top performances which I'm glad to say are a nice mix of the old and newer. Hope y'all find something to suit but I'd urge you to try the Engegard recording if you've not heard it. Really impressed me.
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3515-bartok-string-quartet-3-a.html


Gave the Engegard quartet recording a listen this morning, along with a couple of others recommended on Merl's blog - the Hungarian and Modigliani.

I agree the Engegard is a fine recording but I still have a preference for the slightly quirky Diotima - vive la difference!
The Hungarians are ever reliable, they perhaps smooth things out a little but are really enjoyable nontheless.

Finally the Modigliani - this is superb I love it.

Now for an embarassing admission - I have this recording on disc, it is filed under Haydn on my shelves as it is a multi-composer disc - I completely forgot about it, jings my memory is definitely in decline - thank goodness its Friday


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> (I know I'm working too hard this week, but this one got by me.)


It's in the post in which I selected the Bartok 3rd. And I thought you were a super dope boy from the Oaktown. Tsk, tsk tsk.

I also made a reference to The Who in the same post. I would elaborate but I can't explain.

It's all in post #4178.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Gave the Engegard quartet recording a listen this morning, along with a couple of others recommended on Merl's blog - the Hungarian and Modigliani.
> 
> I agree the Engegard is a fine recording but I still have a preference for the slightly quirky Diotima - vive la difference!
> The Hungarians are ever reliable, they perhaps smooth things out a little but are really enjoyable nontheless.
> 
> Finally the Modigliani - this is superb I love it.
> 
> Now for an embarassing admission - I have this recording on disc, it is filed under Haydn on my shelves as it is a multi-composer disc - I completely forgot about it, *jings* my memory is definitely in decline - thank goodness its Friday


Jings! OMG Malx, you have turned into a character from Scooby-doo. Next you'll be saying "Jeepers", "Yoiks" and "I would have remembered that Modigliani Bartok performance if it wasn't for you pesky kids"! :lol:


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## Malx

Merl said:


> Jings! OMG Malx, you have turned into a character from *Scrooby-doo*. Next you'll be saying "Jeepers", "Yoiks" and "I would have remembered that Modigliani Bartok performance if it wasn't for you pesky kids"! :lol:


Scrooby-doo .... was that the Manchester version of Scooby-Doo


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Scrooby-doo .... was that the Manchester version of Scooby-Doo


I have no idea what you are talking about, Malcy-boy. You must have tampered with my post. Jeepers! .


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> It's in the post in which I selected the Bartok 3rd. And I thought you were a super dope boy from the Oaktown. Tsk, tsk tsk.
> 
> I also made a reference to The Who in the same post. I would elaborate but I can't explain.
> 
> It's all in post #4178.


I was going to use one of those face-changing apps to put Bartok's face on MC, but then I thought... do we really want to see that?










And yes, I got the Who reference! (Never thought I'd hear MBB&B used to describe a string quartet.)


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I was going to use one of those face-changing apps to put Bartok's face on MC, but then I thought... do we really want to see that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I got the Who reference! (Never thought I'd hear MBB&B used to describe a string quartet.)


I used it in one of my blog reviews, too, but I'm not fishing through all the 70+ reviews to find it. 

PS. I knocked the Hungarians down one notch after giving the top ten another spin today. Still excellent but I preferred the others. Tbh, anything in those top two categories is awesome.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This is such a wonderful choice for this thread because of its relative brevity, continuity, and concision of material - it's über-dense, no-nonsense composing; which is one of the prime reasons why I love Bartok so much - he usually doesn't say more than he needs to. Diving into this quartet (and all of his quartets) is like entering a semi-recognizable yet excitingly foreign world of flying shapes and colors, with scraps of familiarity thrown our way through the folk tunes and (sort of?) traditional structure. Bartok always keeps you on your feet with the luscious myriad of crazy, inventive sounds in which he wraps his genius. The problem for me is the second movement - it is obviously crucial, but it can be really tough to sustain attention through the barbaric yawping (apologies, Walt!) of all those extended techniques and hammered dance macabre rhythms - and the third movement, which is essentially a fantasia-like deconstruction of the first movement, can be cryptic as well. Overall, I think this is a prime example of Bartok's art and the kind of piece that easily rewards listening many, many times. 

I had the time to take in the acclaimed (by Merl and Malx, at least...) Euclid, my old standby Takacs, and the Vegh on Orfeo. As much as my saying this might rub some the wrong way, I always default to those ensembles with more character in their tone and those who take more risks in order to achieve special results. Thus, although the Euclid are breathtakingly secure they glide over the music where the Takacs and Vegh dig in, and once again I go with the Takacs for their uniquely soulful phrasing and willingness to stretch their instruments and techniques to the limits in service of Bartok's daring conceptions. My goodness, I would have expected sparks to fly off their bows in the finale - it's a jumper cable to the nerves! The Vegh is a bit gentler and more singing at times but they too go for the kill in the "barbaric" portions and turn in a performance that really hangs together.


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## Merl

Are you referring to the 70s Vegh or 50s mono Vegh, ACB?


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## Allegro Con Brio

^The stereo on Orfeo

.............


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This is such a wonderful choice for this thread because of its relative brevity, continuity, and concision of material - it's über-dense, no-nonsense composing; which is one of the prime reasons why I love Bartok so much - he usually doesn't say more than he needs to. Diving into this quartet (and all of his quartets) is like entering a semi-recognizable yet excitingly foreign world of flying shapes and colors, with scraps of familiarity thrown our way through the folk tunes and (sort of?) traditional structure. Bartok always keeps you on your feet with the luscious myriad of crazy, inventive sounds in which he wraps his genius. The problem for me is the second movement - it is obviously crucial, but it can be really tough to sustain attention through the barbaric yawping (apologies, Walt!) of all those extended techniques and hammered dance macabre rhythms - and the third movement, which is essentially a fantasia-like deconstruction of the first movement, can be cryptic as well. Overall, I think this is a prime example of Bartok's art and the kind of piece that easily rewards listening many, many times.
> 
> I had the time to take in the acclaimed (by Merl and Malx, at least...) Euclid, my old standby Takacs, and the Vegh on Orfeo. As much as my saying this might rub some the wrong way, I always default to those ensembles with more character in their tone and those who take more risks in order to achieve special results. Thus, although the Euclid are breathtakingly secure they glide over the music where the Takacs and Vegh dig in, and once again I go with the Takacs for their uniquely soulful phrasing and willingness to stretch their instruments and techniques to the limits in service of Bartok's daring conceptions. My goodness, I would have expected sparks to fly off their bows in the finale - it's a jumper cable to the nerves! The Vegh is a bit gentler and more singing at times but they too go for the kill in the "barbaric" portions and turn in a performance that really hangs together.


ACB, this is such a great post! I think you really get to the heart of things here, and it yet again it makes me wish I had better language to describe why some music connects so well with me. The Bartok quartets are absolutely high on that list, and for me it's like I'm listening to the essence of modernity. I'm using "modern" here to mean roughly the first half of the 20th century, in the sense that now we're very much in the post-modern age (or even the post-post-modern age). I had this thought before, actually, when I was discovering these quartets for the first time. I literally said to myself, "This is what the first half of the last century sounded like." (Does that even make any sense?)

To bring this thought into the topic of album covers, you can definitely see the modern aesthetic being played out in this cover from the Chillingirians:









And in this one from the Endellions:









The cover I think is kinda sneaky-great (even as I admit to being biased toward the music inside) is this one from the Vegh on Naive:









This public bath house is an Old World version of modern, with the dark and vaguely foreign-looking structure surrounding it. Pretty much pitch-perfect for this music, isn't it?


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## StevehamNY

Apologies for the double post, but I wanted to send this before I slip away for a couple of days...

I didn't find any Hall of Fame bad covers this week, but maybe you can help me out because I definitely have questions about these:

Is this one batty or oddly great?









Have the Diotimas taken the "look moody and mysterious" thing a little too far here?









When you think about Bartok, do Puffins immediately spring into your mind?









And finally... The Arcadias found a statue of the composer and took a picture with it, like he's the fifth member of the group. Why is this not the automatic default cover concept for every quartet album?


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## Merl

Damn I forgot the Ramor, even though it was on my list to listen to, and I've just realised that the Vegh on Orfeo and Naive are two different recordings. The Orfeo was recorded in 1968 and the Naive set recorded in 1972. I really have been lapse this week and been missing recordings off . Probably shows you how stressed I've been. Thankfully this time tomorrow I'll be on the plane to Spain, ready to soak up the sunshine (and possibly large amounts of gin). For now I have a pair of recordings to listen to and I might end up changing my blog again.


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## Burbage

It's be a dark, wet, windy and utterly depressing Friday where I am, but that doesn't diminish it's Fridayness, so here's this:

While fossicking around this quartet I was surprised to find Bartok, Dohnanyi and Kodaly were all born within five years of each other and, up to a point, worked in the same place. Yet the quartets of the latter (and Leo Weiner, for that matter), though suitably nationalistic, are audibly anchored to the rocks of Strauss and Brahms, with impressionist dashes of Wagner or Debussy, according to taste. Bartok was different and, though he had much in common with Kodaly, (they shared a fondness for collecting folk-songs, naturist vacations and marrying teenagers), respected older masters too - famously his first quartet was also modelled, we're assured, on Beethoven's Op. 131, despite not being in C sharp minor or played through without a break.

By the time the third quartet, in C sharp minor and played without a break, came to be written, a lot had happened in the musical world. Stravinsky's _Concertino for String Quartet_ had been written and performed and his _Les Noces_, written in 1923, had recently received it's London premiere, with Poulenc and Auric (among others) at the piano, which had caused a stir (critics didn't like it, prompting H G Wells, of all people, to vigorously defend it as a "rendering of the peasant soul"), and, according to some, had noticeably influenced Bartok. And Honegger had also written a _Concertino_, a sort-of compressed, neo-classical piano concerto, which may also have found its way to Bartok. I'm not sure if Stravinsky and Bartok met in London, but it seems likely. Stravinsky was there, at around this time, recording piano-rolls, and Bartok was there, too, performing recitals and preparing for his forthcoming tour of America. I mention this because, though Stravinsky was famously sniffy about Bartok, Bartok was one of his ferventest fans and, it seems, able to make useful connections.

One such connection was Sir Duncan Randolph Wilson, an Etonian, Oxford-educated scientist, who'd shot to fame twelve years previously as co-author of the influential "_Report of the Departmental Committee on Lighting in Factories and Workshops_", and would later become known for championing a "spirit of reasonableness" as His Majesty's Chief Inspector of Factories. Wilson, it should be said, lived in a part of London that's only ever seen a peasant soul on bin-collection day, so how he came to be hosting Bartok is anyone's guess. That said, you can't throw a stone in that part of the world without hitting a Patron of the Arts, if only for tax purposes, so it's likely that this Wilson had musical connections. He certainly had a piano, as Bartok performed at least one recital in his house, which may have been a large one*. Though this Sir Duncan Wilson was not the (younger, unrelated) Sir Duncan Wilson who, as Ambassador to Russia, hosted Shostakovich (pre-echoes of whose later work can be clearly heard, I think, in Stravinsky's _Concertino_)

Perhaps I digress, but I've been surprised to find my impression of Bartok, as a very Hungarian, quirky, pioneering composer with voice distinctively his own, somewhat disturbed by all these coincidences and connections. Listening to the third quartet, I'm finding Bartok synthesising almost everything of or before his time, from ancient peasant tunes to Stravinsky's latest hits, by way of Beethoven and Debussy and Les Six and Berg and Zemlinsky and, of course, Kodaly. And nothing is predominant apart, perhaps, from Bartok himself.

But mysteries still abound. That "C sharp minor", for example, seems a bit redundant though it seems to have been Bartok's idea (he described it both as a "String Quartet in C sharp" and in "C sharp minor". Though, as an early reviewer claimed, "it might have been in any key", so I'm not sure why it's there.

Though I don't necessarily trust my ears, they're all I've got, so I've spent a lot of time listening to this (specifically the Belcea recording), and I've had a lot of fun pulling it apart in all sorts of uninformed ways, making all sorts of links (the 2nd movement reminded me, for example, of the joyful start of the Arriaga) that might not even exist, playing spot-the-fugue and musing about whether the borrowed motifs have any further significance. Are they just tunes, as in Shostakovich (who, presumably, had no bagels to sell), songs of angry protest or do they borrow familiar legend for personal, and possibly political, reasons, as the Cantata profana, of 1930, arguably does?

I honestly don't know what Bartok intended with this, musically, except for what it audibly does, but perhaps that's the point. Perhaps it's meant to be a sort of puzzle-box, a kaleidoscope of musical tricks that neatly fold into each other. But then I'm not sure I see this as being in a different idiom to either the 2nd or the 4th - rather a step on a journey and I'm reminded of that remark of Skalkottas, about his own writing, that every piece was a preparatory sketch for the next one. Skalkottas, of course, like Schoenberg and perhaps Stravinsky, had his spiky, atonal compositions and his (more popular) tuneful, neo-classical ones. Whereas Bartok seems to manage, without much showmanship (despite his undoubted self-promotional skills, his borrowings seem respectful), to do both at the same time.

Practically, the intention might have been to win a prize from the Musical Fund of Philadelphia, to which he dedicated it, during his big American tour a couple of months later. Though, as it happens, he was in Philadelphia just before the deadline, and it's possible he didn't know about the contest until then. Perhaps he was told about it by Fritz Reiner, who happened to be conducting at Bartok's Philadelphia concerts. And, entirely coincidentally, happened to be on the prize jury. But then so was Willem Mengelberg, who'd conducted the New York performances. They say it's a small world, and it can be, for those with the right connections, and Bartok, for all his peculiar ways, is nothing but connected***.

* _Frantic, if unwise, googlery reveals that, between August 2014 and October 2015, the entrance to 7 Sidney Place, Wilson's home in 1927, became the entrance to Nos. 7 & 8 Sidney Place, which raises many, many questions, all of which seem as unanswerable as they may be irrelevant._

** _I've had few liner notes to plunder, so have pinched other sources. Notably the following, which I commend to the serious reader:_ https://www.library.upenn.edu/sites...ic/Music_in_The_Pavilion_Program_Daedalus.pdf

*** _Not all connections were as helpful, however. Saygun, who may not be impartial, suggests Bartok later emigrated to the new world partly because Hindemith blocked Saygun's attempts to find him work in Turkey._ http://www.turkishmusicportal.org/e...llections-turkish-folk-music-bartok-in-turkey


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## Enthusiast

vwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvwvw


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## HenryPenfold

On holiday in Turkey since Tuesday and moving about, so internet access a bit hit and miss. Of about 23 complete sets, I have no firm favourite - they are all pretty damn fine! Couple of weeks ago I listened to the Vegh a few times. Excellent renditions, highly Hungarian and you can even see the goulash dripping off the frets!

I'm travelling light so I only loaded one set, Arcadia Quartet on Chandos. Warm, romantic, unidiomatic, not a first library choice, but their approach really appeals to me.


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> On holiday in Turkey since Tuesday and moving about, so internet access a bit hit and miss. Of about 23 complete sets, I have no firm favourite - they are all pretty damn fine! Couple of weeks ago I listened to the Vegh a few times. Excellent renditions, highly Hungarian and you can even see the goulash dripping off the frets!


Wait, goulash dripping off the frets, wasn't that a Kagel piece?


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## SearsPoncho

TGIF! Cue the Rebecca Black, er, NO! Forget about it.

A few semi-random thoughts:


I always enjoy reading Burbage's Friday posts.

It's always been assumed that Bartok was inspired to write his 3rd quartet after attending a performance of Berg's Lyric Suite for String Quartet, which was written one year before Bartok's 3rd. Is there any other basis for this assumption beyond those simple facts?

The two greatest string quartet composers of the 20th century, Bartok and Shostakovich, both wrote highly chromatic, dissonant music that was, with the exception of some late Shostakovich experimentation, *tonal.* (I believe Bartok stated that all his music was tonal.). Both were classicists. Other than that, their music doesn't seem to have anything in common. Unlike Shostakovich and Prokofiev, or Bartok and Honegger (yes, go back and listen to his 3rd quartet), I would never confuse Bartok quartets for Shostakovich.

I often find that effective use of dissonance, such as this week's quartet, within a tonal context can be far more terrifying and unsettling than just pure atonality.

I've enjoyed reading the comments this week. I decided on Bartok's 3rd several months ago, but was afraid it would be met with the internet equivalent of chirping crickets because of it's perceived "difficulty." Thanks to all who participated in attempting to crack Bartok's toughest nut.* Special thanks to Merl, who wrote a great blog on all the recordings, Mal, and the rest of you who took the deep dive into comparative listening; hopefully, the quartet does not seem as difficult as it did last weekend.

The great Bartok quartet performers and interpreters are not always the great Shostakovich performers.

Henry: Sorry for "stealing" your quartet. What can I say? Great minds think alike.

My reaction after reading ACB's post: There's hope for the future.

Happy weekend...hope all of you lucky ******** on vacation enjoy yourselves.

*Beavis and Butthead laughter and snickering.


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## starthrower

Thanks, Poncho! Bartok No.3 had never really registered with me prior to this week despite the fact that I own three complete recordings. I still haven't put in the time to become intimately familiar with all six works and only nos.1 & 4 have made somewhat of an impression. But after diving into No.3 and listening to the piece 7-8 times this week I've become a big fan of the work. I don't find it any more difficult than the others and due to its relative brevity, cramming in more listening sessions is made easier. Burbage provided a dinner table full of food for thought about the motivations and circumstances surrounding this composition but in the end, as he pointed out, it comes down to making the effort to listen.


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## Merl

Thanks SP. I've enjoyed revisiting a Bartok quartet I rarely play, as its not one of my faves. However, after a week of saturated listening it's definitely risen in my estimation, especially that fine 2nd movement. Im still a bigger admirer of the trio of quartets that proceeded it, especially the 4th (pizzicato heaven for me). As usual, I found a few gems I don't have so I'll look out for those at bargain prices in the future. I'm currently reviewing an English quartet for my blog and have just found a better recording than the one I have, in the process. I do enjoy these comparative surveys and the discussions about each SQ too. Thanks again for a fine choice, SP. Hey, where's Jos, this week? Unlike him to not comment on Bartok SQs.


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## Art Rock

I can't make sufficient time available to really take part in this thread (so it is also fine if you take my name out of the nominations list), but I do enjoy reading it frequently. And the current choice inspired me to order the Takacs version on CD from the library to explore further - given that the Emerson Quartet version of the Bartok quartets that I have on CD since 1990 or so has never been able to make me hear these works as the masterpieces most people consider them to be. ETA next week.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Looks like it might be poor timing for you, Henry, but if you’re up for picking this week, you’re next…

Current schedule:
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> The great Bartok quartet performers and interpreters are not always the great Shostakovich performers.


Based on this observation, I can't help but ask the inevitable tough question (and please don't go back doing any heavy rechecking, just tell me off the top of your head): Of those quartets who've recorded at least one of each, who's come closest to achieving a high level in both? OR, to put it another way, if you could only listen to one quartet playing both Bartok and Shostakovich, who would it be?

P.S. If your first inclination is the Takacs, just remember Merl's notable take on their version of Shostakovich's 2nd: "Just goes to show that not everything the Takacs touch turns to gold." If you tend to agree (and here I do), then maybe the "obvious" choice ain't so obvious!


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


> Based on this observation, I can't help but ask the inevitable tough question (and please don't go back doing any heavy rechecking, just tell me off the top of your head): Of those quartets who've recorded at least one of each, who's come closest to achieving a high level in both? OR, to put it another way, if you could only listen to one quartet playing both Bartok and Shostakovich, who would it be?
> 
> P.S. If your first inclination is the Takacs, just remember Merl's notable take on their version of Shostakovich's 2nd: "Just goes to show that not everything the Takacs touch turns to gold." If you tend to agree (and here I do), then maybe the "obvious" choice ain't so obvious!


I associate different ensembles with each composer. I haven't even heard the Takacs in Shostakovich. I haven't heard the Borodin or Fitzwilliam quartets in Bartok. I prefer your first question, and the answer would probably be the Emerson Quartet (at least that I've heard). They achieve a "high level" in both.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Based on this observation, I can't help but ask the inevitable tough question (and please don't go back doing any heavy rechecking, just tell me off the top of your head): Of those quartets who've recorded at least one of each, who's come closest to achieving a high level in both? OR, to put it another way, if you could only listen to one quartet playing both Bartok and Shostakovich, who would it be?
> ous!


Off the top of _my_ head I' d give the underrated Alexander Quartet a strong shout. Their Shosty and Bartok cycles are very strong. Otherwise the Emersons.


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## Carmina Banana

My power and WIFI is back on so I’m going to make some quick comments about this amazing piece before we move on to the next quartet.

My relationship with Bartok is similar to my relationship with Bach; I delight in knowing that I will never fully understand what they are doing. The second movement, for instance, has those unexpected changes of rhythm and tempo that your “average” composer would just never think of. I guess you could call them strokes of genius. There exists the joy of discovery and improvisation and yet the larger structure of the piece is never sacrificed. Thoughtful spontaneity. 
I have heard several really good recordings, but I feel I should make a plug for the Emerson Quartet just because I have tended to give them “meh” ratings in the past. Their recording of the complete Bartok quartets was my introduction to these works and I listened to it a lot. Coming back to it now after listening to some other groups, I still love their performance. There is a great clarity to this rendition. Sometimes their playing lacks personality—whereas some groups might emphasize this or that, the Emersons take the middle road and keep everything balanced and maybe understated. In the Bartok quartets, I think the listener can benefit from this objectivity because we can hear all of the fascinating Bartok details with precision. I probably wouldn’t consider it my favorite, but definitely an essential recording.


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## Enthusiast

It is a very compact and rather intense work, one that I have often enjoyed in the past. I sometimes make reference to Merl’s astounding good survey in what follows. I don’t always agree with him but I am rarely in proper disagreement! He is right that so many of the recordings available are recommendable and perhaps in such circumstances my preferences may be largely a matter of my mood at the time of listening. But my absolute top choices are the Tatrai (also in Merl’s top category) and the Hungarian and I think they would be right at the top whatever my mood:

-	The Tatrai: like Merl, I love the sound they make even if it is not so easy to say what it is about it that is so special. The Tatrai often seem to me (I’m thinking of other recordings of theirs as well as this one) sound like their instruments are singing (like voices rather than string instruments). Wonderful.
-	The Hungarian manage more light along with darkness – what a wonderful second movement! They somehow manage to be civilised as well as being intense.

Some of the others that stuck out for me as special this week were: 

-	The Takacs – real mystery at the start, very musical and builds nicely. They project seriousness and sound great. 
-	The Ebene – yes, it is quite angular and can sometimes sound just a little rushed but I really like the strong sense of being on a journey that is, of course, partly a feature of the work but is one they bring out nicely. I like the building up and letting go and then building up again, and the occasional excitement. I wouldn’t use the word “turbulent” myself – I don’t find myself tossed around or even having to hang on for dear life. Theirs is a journey that grips me and I feel quite secure!
-	The Emerson – the excitement is what makes this special for me and, of course, their signature razor sharp ensemble delivering a well-shaped interpretation. But it somehow seems a slightly smaller work in their hands – but that can be a good thing!
-	Heath – I think I am liking this one more than many others here. It is a fine performance with lots of telling detail and a good account of the shifting moods. I feel they are really enjoying themselves.
-	Diotima – Also one with lots of telling detail. Perhaps a little spiky for me and their characterisation of the many suddenly shifting moods seems a little exaggerated to me. But there is so much that is good here … how to put it? I sense a great performances trying to get out!
-	The Vegh (I think their Orfeo recording is the best of their three) - 

I also enjoyed the Tokyo and a few others (ABQ, Lindsays …) but was a bit disappointed with the Juilliard studio recording which I found a little grim.


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## Kreisler jr

I used to find this piece a bit tough and it was definitely a benefit to listen to it once or twice almost everyday for a week. It is great piece and while I'd have to re-listen to #2 and #6 it probably displaces #6 as my third favorite Bartok quartet after 4 and 5.
I did not dislike any of the recordings I heard but I want to listen to the Juilliard 1963 and Emerson once more before a commentary. The Tokyo/DG was maybe a bit too "neutral", very good overall but a bit underplaying the contrasts and "weird sounds". Maybe the same could be said of Hungarian/DG but I found this the most "natural" and flowing of all. 
The Hagen (I have the Newton re-issue, the DG having been oop for ages) has the most "modern" sound (in that ghostly ponticello or what the effect is passages), the strongest extremes in dynamics and general contrasts, but still coherent.

Among all the works, certainly among the ones I already knew (but should have known better) in this thread I participated (I skipped Kagel and Lachenmann), I made the greatest advance in my appreciation in this quartet.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> It is a very compact and rather intense work, one that I have often enjoyed in the past. I sometimes make reference to Merl's astounding good survey in what follows. I don't always agree with him but I am rarely in proper disagreement! He is right that so many of the recordings available are recommendable and perhaps in such circumstances my preferences may be largely a matter of my mood at the time of listening. But my absolute top choices are the Tatrai (also in Merl's top category) and the Hungarian and I think they would be right at the top whatever my mood:
> 
> -	The Tatrai: like Merl, I love the sound they make even if it is not so easy to say what it is about it that is so special. The Tatrai often seem to me (I'm thinking of other recordings of theirs as well as this one) sound like their instruments are singing (like voices rather than string instruments). Wonderful.
> -	The Hungarian manage more light along with darkness - what a wonderful second movement! They somehow manage to be civilised as well as being intense.
> 
> Some of the others that stuck out for me as special this week were:
> 
> -	The Takacs - real mystery at the start, very musical and builds nicely. They project seriousness and sound great.
> -	The Ebene - yes, it is quite angular and can sometimes sound just a little rushed but I really like the strong sense of being on a journey that is, of course, partly a feature of the work but is one they bring out nicely. I like the building up and letting go and then building up again, and the occasional excitement. I wouldn't use the word "turbulent" myself - I don't find myself tossed around or even having to hang on for dear life. Theirs is a journey that grips me and I feel quite secure!
> -	The Emerson - the excitement is what makes this special for me and, of course, their signature razor sharp ensemble delivering a well-shaped interpretation. But it somehow seems a slightly smaller work in their hands - but that can be a good thing!
> -	Heath - I think I am liking this one more than many others here. It is a fine performance with lots of telling detail and a good account of the shifting moods. I feel they are really enjoying themselves.
> -	Diotima - Also one with lots of telling detail. Perhaps a little spiky for me and their characterisation of the many suddenly shifting moods seems a little exaggerated to me. But there is so much that is good here … how to put it? I sense a great performances trying to get out!
> -	The Vegh (I think their Orfeo recording is the best of their three) -
> 
> I also enjoyed the Tokyo and a few others (ABQ, Lindsays …) but was a bit disappointed with the Juilliard studio recording which I found a little grim.


Yeah, we sometimes agree, Enthusiast, and sometimes not but I'd be amazed if anyone fully agreed with me. Like you said, and I alluded to in my review, the Tatrai sound for Bartok can sound sparse, sinewy, ghostly and odd but perhaps that's why I like them. Your point about their recordings having a 'singing' quality' I think is bang-on.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Looks like it might be poor timing for you, Henry, but if you're up for picking this week, you're next…
> 
> Current schedule:
> HenryPenfold
> Helgi
> Carmina Banana
> GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
> StevehamNY
> FastkeinBrahms
> Burbage
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> Kreisler jr
> allaroundmusicenthusiast


I have limited online time and can't post pictures links etc, only having my iPhone and often weak signal. However, I'm happy to choose the next quartet, if that's acceptable given the foregoing.

William Mathias. String quartet no.1 (1967) 20 minutes

A very neglected British composer who among other works wrote 3 excellent string quartets (my favourite being no.1) and 3 terribly good symphonies.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I have limited online time and can't post pictures links etc, only having my iPhone and often weak signal. However, I'm happy to choose the next quartet, if that's acceptable given the foregoing.
> 
> William Mathias. String quartet no.1 (1967) 20 minutes
> 
> A very neglected British composer who among other works wrote 3 excellent string quartets (my favourite being no.1) and 3 terribly good symphonies.


That's a new one on me, Henry. Looking forward to something new.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Wow, a Welsh composer! Excellent out of the box choice. Here's a very nice write-up on his life and work from AllMusic.


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> I have limited online time and can't post pictures links etc, only having my iPhone and often weak signal. However, I'm happy to choose the next quartet, if that's acceptable given the foregoing.
> 
> William Mathias. String quartet no.1 (1967) 20 minutes
> 
> A very neglected British composer who among other works wrote 3 excellent string quartets (my favourite being no.1) and 3 terribly good symphonies.


Not a work I know. Also I was enjoying listening to a major work last week! But I will give the Mathias a listen at least.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Yeah, we sometimes agree, Enthusiast, and sometimes not but I'd be amazed if anyone fully agreed with me. Like you said, and I alluded to in my review, the Tatrai sound for Bartok can sound sparse, sinewy, ghostly and odd but perhaps that's why I like them. Your point about their recordings having a 'singing' quality' I think is bang-on.


I think we agreed substantially on this one, Merl, plus what you managed with all those recordings was much much more than I could imagine being able to do! I used your blog on this one to organise the various thoughts I did have.


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## HenryPenfold

Enthusiast said:


> Not a work I know. Also I was enjoying listening to a major work last week! But I will give the Mathias a listen at least.


Dont feel you have to, wait until a major work comes along. Listening time is precious.


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## Enthusiast

^ Thanks. But I do always try out recommendations from listeners I respect and I have discovered much great music by doing so.


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## Chilham

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Thanks. But I do always try out recommendations from listeners I respect and I have discovered much great music by doing so.


Yes. I lurk in the thread a lot, learning all the time.


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> Dont feel you have to, wait until a major work comes along. Listening time is precious.


... and now I have heard it. I hear what you mean. I don't suppose I will listen to it ten times in a week but I will retain it in my "repertoire" and will certainly play it again before the week is out. Even more, though, you have now started me off in exploring Matthias more widely.


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## Merl

Interesting work. Not sure what to make of it after an initial listen but it has a Brittenesque/Bartokian feel to it. Will give it a few goes and see what transpires.


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## sbmonty

New to me. I'm giving the Medea Quartet a listen now. Thanks Henry!


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Interesting work. Not sure what to make of it after an initial listen but it has a Brittenesque/Bartokian feel to it. Will give it a few goes and see what transpires.


I very much agree with "Brittenesque/Bartokian," while being distinct enough that you wouldn't mistake it for either.

I've listened to it just once, late last night, but I _really_ like it. It is, once again, amazing to me that there are so many excellent composers out there who I've never even heard of!

Thanks, Henry!


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## Malx

Great choice Henry - I have the Medea disc somewhere, one of those impulse buys when it was available at a good price, but as you can tell I haven't listened to it for a while. I'm looking forward to digging it out.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Chilham said:


> Yes. I lurk in the thread a lot, learning all the time.


Let me know if you'd like to choose a quartet

I just returned from a very special experience of a chamber concert at my college. Four principals of the Minnesota Orchestra played William Grant Still's Lyric Quartet (quite lovely) and an interesting and creative contemporary piece, but the clincher was the great Osmo Vänskä himself joining in on clarinet for Mozart's heavenly Clarinet Quintet. What a buoyant, enthusiastic, responsive performance - it's one thing to try and analyze a performance from the speakers, but witnessing the dynamics of chamber playing in person adds a fascinating dimension to the process of spontaneous creation. Taking in the experience alongside fellow music lovers my age, and witnessing the shared joy of the sublime among everyone in the audience (goodness, that Mozart piece is a transportive experience) is a memory I'm not likely to forget. And to top it all off, I got the privilege to (briefly) meet Maestro Vänskä himself afterward! My friend (who is less timid than I) asked him what was the most important thing he has learned as a musician, and he replied perfectly: "When you're conducting it's about thinking one step ahead; when you're playing, it's about being in the moment."


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## Carmina Banana

I loved hearing about your chamber music experience, ACB. 
I grew up in St. Paul and saw countless performances by the Minnesota Orchestra and the St. Paul Chamber. I was there during the Skrowaczewski years and then Neville Marriner. I also remember Dennis Russell Davies over at the SPCO. 
I also saw many recitals at local colleges, maybe even the one you are attending. It was, and hopefully still is, a great area for music.


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## Enthusiast

I do like the Mathias first quartet. Yes, it sounds somewhat Bartokian and there is what sounds like very Welsh mysteriousness (but perhaps that is just knowing that Mathias was Welsh). It is a fine work but I sense that a greater composer would be able to make more of the material - the work remains an accomplished essay rather than a masterpiece. But it is a work I can easily imagine wanting to hear from time to time (so obviously I think it memorable). 

I also enjoyed the other quartets, each of which is quite different. Does anyone else hear middle period Tippett in the 3rd quartet?


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## Carmina Banana

I also like this piece very much. I especially like the motivic organization. There is something very satisfying about a piece that is glued together with musical materials that the average listener can hear (as compared to serial techniques that might be hard to understand without an analysis of the score). 
I am listening to the 3rd quartet right now and I agree about the connection with Tippett based on some of the rhythmic activity, especially in the first movement. It has a similar buoyant feel.
Otherwise, I think they are quite different. Tippett (based on the few pieces I know) strikes me as a composer with a certain objectivity, whereas Mathias at least in these quartets gets personal and introspective. This is purely a gut reaction based on the relatively small amount of music I have heard from these composers.


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## Malx

I have now listened to the Mathias first quartet a few times and I agree with Enthusiast's comments, definitely hearing some element of influence from Bartok. On repeated hearings I found something didn't quite gel for me maybe a diamond that still needs polishing a bit. I still enjoyed it well enough but it is not bursting into the very top tier of quartets (a tough place to get to) but it certainly has individuality which I like.
When I had dug out my disc I also played the other two quartets and all three are quite different from one another. I enjoyed the second quartet, drawing as it does from ancient vocal pieces for inspiration.

So thanks go out to Henry for reminding me that I had this lurking in a dark corner.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Right off the bat I like the harmonies (almost harmonics) that kick off the piece, really pretty stuff. I like how then it shifts to something with strong propelling rhythmic accents (those occasions of Bartokian influence that others have already noted), then again to a more stasis-like wandering, and then back to rhythmic and sonic exploration with the pizzicattos, and then back to a more soothing state of expansive and a bit unsettling (almost pretty) nature, and then back again...
I don't know if it all gels together, but it makes for a very interesting listening experience, and in both moods (tranquil and mysterious pretty with an edge, and more rapturous thunderous uneasy) there are some very good moments worth savouring.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I finally had the chance to listen to this piece. The opening is really arresting - like AAME says in his typically perceptive, succinct comments; the harmonies are beautiful and really draw you in. We are then thrown a myriad of conflicting gestures that alternate uneasy lyricism, savage dances, and sinewy counterpoint. I figured that this very hesitant, sputtering, stuttering style would eventually give way to a more contiguous form but it really didn't. I didn't find the work to be very effectively unified, coming across as more like an improvisation (maybe there is a veiled sonata-form structure or something like that; I would have to listen again with that in mind). On the bright side I don't think the piece is at all derivative - there is a distinct flavor to be sure - and maybe the choppy nature of the music is part of its quirky, homespun charm. I can't imagine it growing on me very much but I'm very glad I heard of it as I doubt I would have ever heard of Mathias otherwise. I briefly sampled his 2nd piano concerto, which sounded totally unlike this quartet like an interesting proto-Romantic experiment. I don't know if I will find the time or inclination to go deeper into his works, but I do tip my hat to Henry for this most original and refreshing pick.


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## Burbage

It's Friday, so here I am:

Mathias' first string quartet was written, perhaps, in response to a commission by the Cardiff University Quartet with a view, possibly, to performing it at the Cardiff Festival of [20th Century] Music, the brainchild of Alun Hoddinott, to whom it is partly dedicated.

It is not clear who the other dedicatee might have been. Oxford University Press, Mathias' publisher, insists the quartet was dedicated to "his wife, Rhiannon". Whether his wife, Yvonne, found this surprising is not recorded but, if she did, either OUP were not informed or, as is possible, so invested in their own infallibility that they are now trapped in a fictional reality of their own making.

Geraint Lewis, who wrote the only liner-notes to guide us through this week's trial, had no fear of competition from younger or less slapdash rivals and seems to have simply transcribed the myth. This is understandable, but raises questions. One question is how, if the quartet was written in 1967, as he attests, it fulfilled a commission issued in April the following year. Another is whether the dedicatee might not have been Rhiannon, his daughter, though Rhiannon didn't attain the status of baby until October 1968, by which time Mathias had taken a position at Edinburgh University.

There are, happily, a few more clues to guide us. One is the fact that the Cardiff Festival of [20th Century] Music was founded in 1967, and took place annually in the spring (at least in its first decade). So it's possible that April 1968 saw its first performance, rather than the commission, in which case the dedicatee may surely have been "his wife, Yvonne". Another is that publishing is not an easy or quick process, so it's also possible that the dedication was changed by Mathias after Rhiannon's arrival but that the publisher, either a biological fundamentalist or used to the ways of composers, reckoned Mathias more likely to have divorced than given birth, and changed the name but not the title. Whatever the truth, it's probably insignificant that Rhiannon has, in her career so far, chosen publishers other than OUP.

I think we can be fairly sure that the quartet was written in Wales, between the spring of 1967 and April 1968, either in response to a commission or in the certain hope of one. In an interview*, Mathias confessed that he subscribed to Stravinsky's idea that "you are commissioned to write what you want to write" and, though that's not too far from being commissioned to write what you've already written, it doesn't seem as if the string quartet was Mathias' preferred medium. Though he was a versatile and industrious composer from the earliest stages of his career, he didn't write many of them, and it doesn't seem as if the string quartet was what he'd have chosen to write if given an entirely free hand.

That wasn't, happily, the first thought that struck me when listening to this quartet. As others have hinted, it seems to be a piece of its time, and there are reminiscences of Tippett (who had, quartetwise, fallen silent at this time) if not Simpson (ditto). Nevertheless, I found myself drifting. It's a balletic piece, dramatic and coherent, but there's are a few reasons I'm not too fond of ballet, one being that there only so many ways of putting one foot in front of another and, as others have noted, the material seems a little stretched.

Perhaps that's the point. Music is not only about what's being done, but how it's being done, and the subtle transformation of motifs or cells or whatever you call them, from exposition to finish can be as beguiling as a tub-thumping tune or a programmatic narrative, or so I'm told. There's space in this world for the purely meditative, and, on the evidence of this, Mathias seems to be an observer rather than an iconoclast. Whether that's of any use to me is, however, a different question, though I have, from time to time, been an observer of Wales, having been dragged on more than one destinationless walk through rainswept valleys and up rainswept hills. But, although I no longer partake of strong drink, I still prefer a walk with a hint of a pub at the end of it, rather than a rainswept bus stop.

Not that I dislike this quartet, and I've listened to it a dozen or more times over the past week. But, though familiarity has helped a little, it still doesn't grab me. That's not unusual for string quartets - there are some of Haydn's that leave me blithely unbothered - and I'm sure what doesn't work for me will work for others. In compensation, however, I've explored a fair bit of Mathias' other work (the contemporaneous Piano Concerto, for example), and found some wonderful things in that.

* http://www.kcstudio.com/Mathias.html


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## FastkeinBrahms

Two of the truly good things in life:

a) A walk with a pub at the end.
b) This forum with a Burbage post towards the end.

Btw: I enjoyed the Mathias quartet and I am very grateful for having been introduced to a new composer entirely worthy of further exploration.


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## Enthusiast

Carmina Banana said:


> I also like this piece very much. I especially like the motivic organization. There is something very satisfying about a piece that is glued together with musical materials that the average listener can hear (as compared to serial techniques that might be hard to understand without an analysis of the score).
> I am listening to the 3rd quartet right now and I agree about the connection with Tippett based on some of the rhythmic activity, especially in the first movement. It has a similar buoyant feel.
> Otherwise, I think they are quite different. Tippett (based on the few pieces I know) strikes me as a composer with a certain objectivity, whereas Mathias at least in these quartets gets personal and introspective. This is purely a gut reaction based on the relatively small amount of music I have heard from these composers.


One of the things I like about this forum and especially this thread is coming to understand the different ways we each approach music. I'm all about impressions, I think, perhaps because I have only the most limited technical knowledge. Except at the over-arching level, I am also fairly uninterested in (or untuned to) ways composers organise their music. I recognise what you mean with the idea of motivic organisation but would not normally think to identify its presence or absence in music! I do, though, love your concept of objectivity vs personal/introspective ... even if I am not sure how I might apply them myself.

Probably many here see my approach as unsophisticated or even dumbed down but it works for me and has taken me into some exciting realms of music. For me it is enough to listen and then listen to what the music does to me!


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## Carmina Banana

Enthusiast said:


> One of the things I like about this forum and especially this thread is coming to understand the different ways we each approach music. I'm all about impressions, I think, perhaps because I have only the most limited technical knowledge. Except at the over-arching level, I am also fairly uninterested in (or untuned to) ways composers organise their music. I recognise what you mean with the idea of motivic organisation but would not normally think to identify its presence or absence in music! I do, though, love your concept of objectivity vs personal/introspective ... even if I am not sure how I might apply them myself.
> 
> Probably many here see my approach as unsophisticated or even dumbed down but it works for me and has taken me into some exciting realms of music. For me it is enough to listen and then listen to what the music does to me!


Totally agree about how great it is to learn about other perspectives on music. I read the comments here and then I am often fired up to go re-listen to the music.


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## SearsPoncho

Enthusiast said:


> I do like the Mathias first quartet. Yes, it sounds somewhat Bartokian and there is what sounds like very Welsh mysteriousness (but perhaps that is just knowing that Mathias was Welsh). It is a fine work but I sense that a greater composer would be able to make more of the material - the work remains an accomplished essay rather than a masterpiece. But it is a work I can easily imagine wanting to hear from time to time (so obviously I think it memorable).
> 
> I also enjoyed the other quartets, each of which is quite different. Does anyone else hear middle period Tippett in the 3rd quartet?


What makes this thread special is not that someone made a reference to middle period Tippett, but that he(?) assumed we would understand what that meant. There's an extremely high level of music appreciation and knowledge on this thread.


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## Merl

I'm buggering off to Spain for 10 days tomorrow so you can guarantee that someone will pick something with uber-multiple recordings, especially if its Bananaman. :lol:


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I'm buggering off to Spain for 10 days tomorrow so you can guarantee that someone will pick something with uber-multiple recordings, especially if its Bananaman. :lol:


Uh-oh, might be time for you-know-what and you-know-who?


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## HenryPenfold

…………. ………..

,,, , ,,,,,,,,,,


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## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> What makes this thread special is not that someone made a reference to middle period Tippett, but that he(?) assumed we would understand what that meant. There's an extremely high level of music appreciation and knowledge on this thread.


At the risk of sounding negative, I think the thread is a little sniffy when it comes to non-major composers/compositions and even some of the usual contributors back off.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Uh-oh, might be time for you-know-what and you-know-who?


Fine by me, I already blogged that one, months ago, in anticipation.



HenryPenfold said:


> At the risk of sounding negative, I think the thread is a little sniffy when it comes to non-major composers/compositions and even some of the usual contributors back off.


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> At the risk of sounding negative, I think the thread is a little sniffy when it comes to non-major composers/compositions and even some of the usual contributors back off.


I'm getting to this piece much later in the week than usual. I've been in opera mode trying to get through Wagner's Ring. But I very much like the sound of this Mathias quartet. My comments would echo those of others here who have already mentioned the interesting harmonies, use of pizzicato, and fairly original style. The tone is decidedly dark and the eerie dissonances remind me a bit of Norgard's later quartets but with richer harmonies. Some of the shorter dance like phrases starting at around the 30 second mark and then repeated soon after brought Shostakovich to mind. I like composers such as Mathias who use a lot of dissonance but don't beat the listener over the head with it. It's more gracefully employed not unlike Takemitsu, although the Mathias quartet didn't bring the Japanese master to mind in particular. Overall I found this piece fairly easy to follow and I was able to pick up on some of the motifs, interplay, and repeated figures after just two listening sessions. I didn't read anything about this piece or what Mathias may have had in mind while composing it but to me it feels like a dance with death. And I don't mean that in a morbid sense but with a feeling of mystery and enchantment whether in the face of one's own mortality or dealing with the loss of someone dear.


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## Allegro Con Brio

*Helgi*, are you still around? If so, it's your turn. Otherwise we'll give it to Carmina Banana.

Current schedule...

Helgi
Carmina Banana
GucciManeIsTheNewWebern
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Allegro Con Brio

If we don’t hear from Helgi within 24 hours or so, Carmina Banana can step in with a pick.


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## Knorf

I'm catching up finally with the Mathias First Quartet. It's totally new to me; I'd never even heard of the composer before. I listened to the Medea Quartet recording on You Tube.

It's a really attractive work. This thread's participants are such good listeners that frankly I'm not sure what further insights I might have, which maybe haven't already been mentioned. Obviously Bartók is there as a point of reference/influence (and who better), but it never sounds derivative of Bartók to me. I hear a clearly distinctive creative voice, one that knows Bartók, yet also has new things to say in this idiom.

The opening is certainly arresting and beautiful. At first, subsequent phrases seemed perhaps a bit episodic, but the attentive listener quickly notices a convincing musical logic is in play. The arching musical drama as it developed absolutely held my interest, yet in the end, it's an essentially subtle work, one that doesn't have to try hard to impress with tehnical gimmicks or overwrought expression. I appreciated that aspect, the work's lyric naturalness, with pathos always just behind the scene.

I enjoyed this. Excellent choice! I may have to explore more of this composer's music.


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## Art Rock

This week's (almost last week's) choice intrigued me. I have half a dozen of Mathias CD's, but mainly orchestral works (I particularly like his clarinet concerto and harp concerto), and no string quartets. So I decided to listen to his first string quartet on YT. I'm glad I did. He creates a fascinating soundscape with shifting moods. I don't hear Bartok influences myself - I do get some vague association with Shostakovich. I will be listening to the other two later this week, but thanks for putting this on the list. Love it.


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## starthrower

I didn't hear any Bartok, either. I mentioned Shostakovich because there is a repeated figure that sounds vaguely similar to the main motif in his first cello concerto.


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## SearsPoncho

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one (See Art Rock and Starthrower) who heard more Shostakovich than Bartok on the Mathias. Busy week, so I didn't get to hear it as much as I would have liked. Here are some more semi-random notes I jotted down, although they probably didn't age well:

-Nice combo. of stasis and movement, somewhat similar to Shostakovich's most profound works.
- Pizzicato-lover's special (new special from Pizza Hut!)
- !st movement rhythmic motif reminiscent of one in Beethoven's Eroica, 1st mvt.
- Choral composer clearly comfortable with 4-part writing
- Need more time to wrap my head around it.


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## Knorf

I heard Shostakovich also as a point of reference or possible influence in Mathias's First Quartet, in addition to Bartók which is fairly obvious. But it's very unclear to me how much of Shostakovich's quartets Mathias could possibly have been exposed to by 1967. I'm thinking it's more likely an example of parallel development.


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## Carmina Banana

I'm ready to step in and await further instructions.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Carmina Banana said:


> I'm ready to step in and await further instructions.


Go ahead and make a pick, CB!


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## Carmina Banana

First of all, apologies to Merl. A few groups have had a go at this one, I'm afraid. 
This quartet is interesting to me because it is kind of a gateway drug to this composer's late quartets. 
Yes, it is time to get serious, everybody. It is time for:
*Beethoven's Quartet opus 95 in f minor.* 
This is an odd, but powerful piece and I think there are interesting choices for interpreters to make. I can't wait to get started!


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## Knorf

It's an incredible quartet. Good choice. Is there any chance we'll discuss more about it than merely comparing recordings?


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## Allegro Con Brio

The “Serioso” is a work that has previously left me a bit baffled due to its cryptic concision and density of ideas. I agree that it is the perfect entry into the world of the late quartets. I find that I can get downright hooked on listening to Beethoven’s quartets when I get on a roll, and I’m hoping to have the time to go deep into this one this week, like I did with the 13th when I listened to nothing else but it for something like five hours straight. Looking forward to it.


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## Mandryka

I think this is an interesting quartet. And I happen to have a favourite recording of it - from The Skampa Quartet.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> First of all, apologies to Merl. A few groups have had a go at this one, I'm afraid.
> This quartet is interesting to me because it is kind of a gateway drug to this composer's late quartets.
> Yes, it is time to get serious, everybody. It is time for:
> *Beethoven's Quartet opus 95 in f minor.*
> This is an odd, but powerful piece and I think there are interesting choices for interpreters to make. I can't wait to get started!


A few. Lol. Well you chose my fave Beethoven quartet so thanks, Bananaman, but unfortunately I don't have access to my old notes and half of my performances on cd and the HD, so I'll just have to go with what I can get access to whilst I'm near Cadiz for the week. I've not got a full itinerary today so I'll see what I can listen to. The Serioso and the Ras quartets tend to get more playtime in my LVB playing than others so I'm well aware of a few particular performances I like a lot. I have the Skampa that Mandryka mentioned and that's a very nice recording. There are MANY others to go at! Damn you, CB.

Edit:

Fortunately my memory of this one is good so I can throw a few out on just a quick skip listen and a few I can happily recommend. I've never cared for the *Amadeus* Quartet's Serioso (I've never been fond of much of their Beethoven at all, tbh but I'll always relisten) and a quick listen reaffirmed this with a far too forwardly balanced first violin and nasty sound. The *Guarneri*'s on RCA and Decca mess this one up too (for me) with a very slow 2nd movement. If I recall the *Takacs* and *Itallianos* take a very similar view of this one (which is right down the middle). I seem to remember they had very similar timings (but my memory might be playing tricks on me). Off the top of my head, a few others (along with the Takacs and Itallianos) that I rate are the *Artemis*, *Borromeo*, *Merel*, *Orford* and *Prazaks*, all of which I've had on the car USB.


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## Merl

..................


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## Kreisler jr

Knorf said:


> It's an incredible quartet. Good choice. Is there any chance we'll discuss more about it than merely comparing recordings?


Of course, and that chance is not independent of what e.g. you do.  If you take it beyong merely comparing recordings, I think there will be people to join in.
I have a lot of recordings but unlike some other Beethoven quartets I tend to find this one not that open to different approaches, maybe the 2nd movement, but everything else has to be as fierce as possible for me...


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I have a lot of recordings but unlike some other Beethoven quartets I tend to find this one not that open to different approaches, maybe the 2nd movement, but everything else has to be as fierce as possible for me...


There's a huge amount of gentle, lyrical music all through the quartet! In fact, my reason for being interested in the music lies in the bizarre abrupt juxtaposition of the sweet and reticent and the overbearing and aggressive-- both monophonically and polyphonically. Why on earth did Beethoven do that? The result is like Empfindsamkeit on steroids. I think he was taking the ****.

Or had Beethoven anticipated Schoenberg's ideas in this famous letter to Busoni?



> And the results I wish for: no stylized and sterile protracted emotion.
> 
> People are not like that: it is impossible for a person to have only one sensation at a time. One has _thousands _simultaneously.
> 
> And these thousands can no more readily be added together than an apple and a pear. They to their own ways. And this variegation, this multifariousness, this illogicality which our senses demonstrate, the illogicality presented by their interactions, set forth by some mounting rush of blood, by some reaction of the senses or the nerves, this I should like to have in my music.
> 
> It should be an expression of feeling,' as our feelings, which bring us in contact with our subconscious, really are, and no false child of feelings and "conscious logic."
> 
> Now I have made my confession and they can bum me. You will not number amongst those who bum me: that I know.


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## StevehamNY

I can listen to the entire LVB cycle pretty much any day of the week, then do it again the next day. I actually have to force myself NOT to do this, because I never want it to be just background music while I'm attending to email and cleaning up and whatnot. When I listen to this music, I want to be 100% present for every note.

On a recent solo car trip, I was psyched for the opportunity to crank this **** up. Imagine me stopping at a red light, next to a car vibrating the pavement with their Classic Rock, and rolling down my window to let them get a whiff of that crazy Vienna jive. (Sorry, Clash reference, not sure it scans.)










ANYWAY, in that whole time, and as much as I love the early quartets as much as the Razumovskys and what I consider to be the underrated Harp, it was only when I got to Serioso that my attention wandered a little bit. And I honestly don't know why. Because, come on.

To take Knorf's point, I already know which recording I love the most. I'm still looking forward to hearing Merl's take on it, because I always find something new to appreciate (and often spend money on), but this week I'm especially looking forward to hearing some insights into why this quartet might be the most impenetrable of the cycle. As always, with my own limited music vocabulary, I have learned so much here, not just about LVB but all of them, and I'll say once again how much I appreciate that you're all here.

(Mandryka, thank you for "Empfindsamkeit on steroids," although I did have to look that up!)


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

This was just what I needed today. Although that 3rd movement is bonkers (Mathias done right maybe would be a way to link it to last week's choice), compared to my only-Wagner-diet (mixed with a bit of his namesake Strauss) it was the right kind of palate cleanser and satisfactory meal all on its own. I do very much like all of it, save for that 2nd movement, that sandwiched inbetween those two wonderful first and third movements, never makes much of an impression on me, knowing what came before it, and what will come after it. The 4th is a great recapitulation, although maybe that allegro (in its literal meaning, joyful) ending could be a little out of place, but then again maybe it's proof of Schoenberg before Schoenberg, like Mandryka says.


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## Josquin13

Just to finish up on the Mathias quartet from last week, which was new to me. Prior to this week's listening, Mathias had been only a name to me, so thanks Henry for the introduction! (although, come to think of it, I may have heard his Harp Concerto before, so that's not entirely true...). Yes, Mathias does like his pizzicato effects, but I thought they worked well & were quite interesting (both here & elsewhere). I was very surprised by the quality of this quartet. So much so that I ended up listening to his 2nd & 3rd string quartets, as well. The 2nd SQ was interesting from the standpoint that he seems to have based it on a folk tune, possibly a traditional Welsh song? While I thought his 3rd SQ was his most mature and secure work of the three, & arguably a modern masterpiece. On first impression, as a cycle, these are among the best SQs I've heard by a 20th century British composer to date. & every bit in the same league with Britten, Tippett, & Rubbra's... (Do you think that Mathias is less well known than the other three because he was Welsh & resided in Wales?)

So, that was an unexpected pick, thanks. I know how difficult it is to find works of this quality that are off the beaten path & unjustly neglected, & you certainly pulled it off. It seems that every time I begin to think I've heard it all, I get pleasantly surprised.

By the way, I listened to the Medea String Quartet recordings (on You Tube), & thought they were very good. I'm definitely going to listen to more music by Mathias. I'm curious about his symphonies & violin concerto...

Now onto Beethoven's Op. 95. Merl, & others, don't forget about the Chiaroscuro String Quartet's fascinating & distinctive period recording--who have, btw, recently initiated a new Beethoven cycle on BIS: 




Nor, if you're feeling so inclined, the Smetana, Gewandhaus, Suske, Hagen, Zemlinsky: 



, and Parkanyi Quartets in Op. 95, either, in addition to the usual suspects--Quartetto Italiano, Alban Berg Quartet (studio & live in Vienna), Takacs Quartet, etc.; plus, on period instruments, Quatour Turner. (By the way, the Parkanyi quartet recording is only $902.81 US dollars new presently on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Schubert-Quartet-Parkanyi-2008-10-16/dp/B014I6BQT0.)

Here's an introduction to the Op. 95 quartet by a member of the Merel Quartet, who have a new Beethoven cycle coming out:






Here too is Michael Parloff's lecture at Lincoln Center on Beethoven's Op. 74, Op. 95, & Op. 127 quartets:


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## Carmina Banana

I’m glad there are so many good comments already. There is a lot of food for thought in this relatively concise work. Thanks for the links, Josquin. I look forward to checking those out.

I am currently reading an essay called “Irony and Incomprehensibility: Beethoven’s “Serioso” String Quartet in F minor, Op. 95, and the Path to the Late Style. The author is Mark Evans Bonds and it appeared in the Journal of the American Musicological Society. 
I am excited because the concept of Irony as it relates to Beethoven has always interested me and this article explains a lot of the contemporary (19th century) ideas about it in philosophy and art and literature. 
My reading this morning was mostly about all of the myriad ways people have interpreted the coda of the last movement. It ranges from bewilderment to disparagement to a belief that Beethoven is taking off his mask at the end and revealing that this was all a cruel joke played on the listener. 

Here is a bit from the abstract:

“The antifoundationalist nature of irony encourages a mode of understanding that precludes the possibility of any one “correct” perspective. Beethoven’s use of “serioso” here and elsewhere, moreover, evokes a sense of the word that conveys pathos bordering on bathos. The “Quartetto serioso” is Beethoven’s most extreme essay in irony, a device that would permeate his later works in more subtle but no less far-reaching ways.”

I’m really enjoying the listening I have been doing and I will report on that in a later post.


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## starthrower

I was reading that same article last night. Here's the link.
https://online.ucpress.edu/jams/art...y-and-Incomprehensibility-Beethoven-s-Serioso

I'm not familiar with this quartet at all but I've started my journey with the Tokyo, and Ebene quartets, and I took a liking to the Israeli, Ariel Quartet live performances on YT.


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## Carmina Banana

I was going to link to that performance of the Ariel also. I know we are mostly about recordings, but there was something about that performance that was very engaging. What did you think of it? Do you enjoy the visual element or do you just listen?


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## HenryPenfold

Carmina Banana said:


> I'm glad there are so many good comments already.


That's to be welcomed, but the downside is that it shows that on this thread we're mainly interested in the big ticket items rather than the string quartet genre per se. It being one of the reasons why I'm increasingly disinclined to contribute and would be happy to come off the nomination rota. Also, the proclivity for lists and comparisons of recordings detracts from instructive discussion of the actual music. I am sorry to appear so negative, but to say nothing feels like collusion


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## starthrower

Carmina Banana said:


> I was going to link to that performance of the Ariel also. I know we are mostly about recordings, but there was something about that performance that was very engaging. What did you think of it? Do you enjoy the visual element or do you just listen?


I enjoy the visual element if they are not getting too fancy with the camera angles and trying to make a production out of it. Just a simple shot of the quartet on stage playing the music. I like to observe the musical lines moving about and the interplay between the musicians.

Concerning Henry's comments, I hope he'll stick around. Obviously some folks here have been listening to the mainstream repertoire much longer than others and would prefer to see less familiar pieces featured each week. I'm all for that but in my case I'm not intimately familiar with many of the quartets written by the famous composers. I just haven't been in to string quartet listening for very long. And left to my own devices I tend to focus on 20-21st century pieces when it comes to chamber music. But I don't mind going back to explore some older music. At this point I'm trying not think in terms of time periods but approach each quartet on its own merits instead of just brushing it off as some old wig music. A prejudice I was guilty of in my younger years.


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## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> That's to be welcomed, but the downside is that it shows that on this thread we're mainly interested in the big ticket items rather than the string quartet genre per se. It being one of the reasons why I'm increasingly disinclined to contribute and would be happy to come off the nomination rota. Also, the proclivity for lists and comparisons of recordings detracts from instructive discussion of the actual music. I am sorry to appear so negative, but to say nothing feels like collusion


Maybe you will think differently in six months But no problem if you'd prefer to be removed, though we would certainly miss your presence.

Clearly the "big ticket items" generate more discussion than more obscure and contemporary pieces - I've frequently wished for a bit more lively conversation on those weeks myself even though I am guilty of not contributing too - but I wouldn't chalk this up to a lack of interest. I think it's simply due to the fact that many listeners are already familiar with the more famous works and more willing to jump in with comments from their previous listening. Then the abundance of recordings stimulates discussion in turn, etc. I think it's unfair to say we're not interested in the string quartet genre; if participation dwindles when certain works come up it's either due to distaste for contemporary music or the fact that people chime in just once with their thoughts in a single post. Some people find certain works worth revisiting and some don't. And that's totally fine. But generally this group always amazes me with its open-mindedness and insightfulness every week, and that has nothing to do with volume of comments.

ETA: I don't think that discussions of recordings are disjunct from the music itself. In fact, many times comparing performance approaches deepens my appreciation of the inherent complexities and nature of the work in seeing how different ensembles deal with the given material and how what the composer wrote can/should be translated into sound. I heard someone say the other day that "every performance of classical music is a cover version." I resonated with that comment a lot. Besides, I don't think the discussions on recordings overwhelm the other thoughts.


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## Knorf

Beethoven's Op. 95 has always been among my favorite of his quartets, and I've lamented more than once the degree to which it seems sort of half-forgotten. I just love how succinct and compact of expression it is, yet always without "pulling punches."

In keeping with a pugilistic description, I recall once reading a program note comparing the opening of the first movement to "throwing down a gauntlet." Apt, I think. The concision with which Beethoven moves through the primary and secondary thematic areas, indeed the whole formal argument of the first movement, is breathtaking.

The slow movement is glorious, and it's followed by one of Beethoven's most memorable quartet scherzos. And I think the pathos in the last movement is very real.

I'm not really inclined to speculate as to what precisely Beethoven meant by "serioso," but anyone looking for ironic intent from a 20th/21st-century point of view, as to what irony might have meant for Beethoven, I think is heading down the wrong path. It's all but impossible to really sit inside the mind of Beethoven's intention with this, without the inescapable connotations of facetiousness that accompany modern representations of irony, especially post-_Catch-22_, or post-Shostakovich, which I feel quite certain do not apply here.

So, what of that last movement coda? I'll share how I hear it-and in doing so will eschew any pretense as to any universality in how I hear it. YMMV, in other words.

Who hasn't had a really rough time, with troubles, tragedy, or sorrow aplenty, that hasn't also experienced moments of levity that at least for the moment lifted the burden? Such a moment indeed comes at the end of the quartet, but I don't hear it in any way invalidating what has come before. In the end, it's just music anyway. But I don't hear something like Petrushka's ghost at the end, or anything similar. As a listener, I am not mocked, but I am reminded: life might at times suck beyond the telling of it, but...not always. ("Always look on the bight side of life," but not the facetious irony of a chorus of poor sods crucified by the Romans; unlike them, we live on.)

I guess if I were to invoke something from Shostakovich, it would be the last few movements of his Ninth symphony. You might have to go through some horrifying forking shirty shirtiness, but there comes a time when it's a good idea to put aside what happened, and just have a party.

With Beethoven's Op. 95, for me I imagine it's been a really horrible day, week, month...But just now a great friend is at the door, and we're going out for a pint. So for now, I'm setting my troubles aside, going out, and closing the door. My troubles are not gone, nor forgotten, rather just set aside for the moment.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> But generally this group always amazes me with its open-mindedness and insightfulness every week, and that has nothing to do with volume of comments.


I agree with this. For me, this is by far the most enjoyable thread on Talk Classical!

I myself don't participate _every_ week, and that usually isn't due to lack of interest. But every quartet in this thread has provoked interesting comments, without exception. This is the thread that makes me want to come back to TC more than any other.


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> That's to be welcomed, but the downside is that it shows that on this thread we're mainly interested in the big ticket items rather than the string quartet genre per se. It being one of the reasons why I'm increasingly disinclined to contribute and would be happy to come off the nomination rota. Also, the proclivity for lists and comparisons of recordings detracts from instructive discussion of the actual music. I am sorry to appear so negative, but to say nothing feels like collusion


Henry, I hope you stay.


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## Knorf

SearsPoncho said:


> Henry, I hope you stay.


I do, too! :tiphat:


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## Malx

SearsPoncho said:


> Henry, I hope you stay.


Me three.

I have beem listening to CM for just over 30 years as a non-musician and enthusiastic layman. I am still constantly learning and this thread has probably taught me more than any other over the last couple of years. Whilst I had string quartets in my collection I didn't really 'listen' to them, certainly not as I do now with the benefit of the input from more learned contributors to this thread. Sorry to say this Henry, but listening to different recordings and comparing them is and will remain of great benefit to me, I do tend to post what I have been listening to and I am often at odds with others' preferences but I love the way, on this thread, people will say why they prefer something else rather than, as is often the case elsewhere on the forum, just shouting an alternative view down with no critical appraisal - frankly I am learning a lot from these comparisons along with the insight into the music and structure of the pieces even if at times I don't understand all the technical ins and outs.

I do believe there is sufficient diversity in the type and content of the comments, hopefully you will hang around Henry and add your tuppence worth :tiphat:


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## Kreisler jr

I have not yet read the paper on "irony" and op.95. Although there are some Beethoven pieces with "shock effects", such as a sudden forte in a slow movement (I think op.10/1 has it, among others) and sudden contrasts of which the unexpected coda of the op.95 finale is one example, I find it not very plausible that "serioso" is not meant seriously, but ironic.

We do have plenty of irony in literature from the early 19th century, e.g. Schumann's favorite Jean Paul, the writer/composer/unhappy law clerk E.T.A. Hoffmann, the poet Heine, and it is pretty close to what we mean with irony today (whereas "humour" seems to have had a wider meaning), including the use to mask bitterness/disappointment, cf. "Ein Jüngling liebt ein Mädchen... Es ist eine alte Geschichte" from Dichterliebe (the old tale of the girl supposedly taking the "next fellow" for an husband instead of the unhappy narrator because her Mr Darcy had married another one had happened to Heine himself). I'd also agree that similar irony can be found in some music although Schubert seems to take both Müller and Heine mostly dead serious and even the Schumann settings often seem more serious than ironic. Among late Beethoven, many of the Diabellis and some scherzo/scherzando movements could be candidates.
But I do have trouble finding this in op.95.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Some random thoughts: Super interesting discussion. I think Beethoven knew irony -and- had a sense of humour, although this is more of a hunch than real factual knowledge. It is very difficult to glean a real sense of his personality after the careful scrubbing of his biography by the hero-hungry 19th and earlier 20th centuries. 

I find it interesting that contributors have said that this quartet does not lend itself to very different types of interpretation while at the same time evoking very different listening experiences. I remember liking this work but never really retaining strong memories of it. I will listen to my Artemis recording again and maybe add some thoughts.

Henry: "Me four". I think this thread has managed a great balance. Your continued presence would help to maintain it.


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## BlackAdderLXX

HenryPenfold said:


> That's to be welcomed, but the downside is that it shows that on this thread we're mainly interested in the big ticket items rather than the string quartet genre per se. It being one of the reasons why I'm increasingly disinclined to contribute and would be happy to come off the nomination rota. Also, the proclivity for lists and comparisons of recordings detracts from instructive discussion of the actual music. I am sorry to appear so negative, but to say nothing feels like collusion


I can only speak for myself but I happen to like the works many here would consider common or predictable. Furthermore some of the more modern picks don't appeal to me. I'll still try and give them a go, but I try to keep my mouth shut if I don't have anything good to say. And sometimes I'm too busy to participate as was the case last week.


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> That's to be welcomed, but the downside is that it shows that on this thread we're mainly interested in the big ticket items rather than the string quartet genre per se. It being one of the reasons why I'm increasingly disinclined to contribute and would be happy to come off the nomination rota. Also, the proclivity for lists and comparisons of recordings detracts from instructive discussion of the actual music. I am sorry to appear so negative, but to say nothing feels like collusion


Many are reading this as a goodbye to the thread but is that what you intend? I do really hope not. I find the thread a mix of the familiar and great and the less familiar (and less great or even less than great) which works OK for me. I often spend less time on the less well known works but almost always give them a try. I am not sure that I always have particularly interesting things to say about them - I often lack the vocabulary - but there you are. I find it hard to imagine how much more we could usefully get on works that we will often be hearing for the first time - a lot of technical analysis, perhaps, but that is not something that appeals to me - and think it is inevitable that the big and familiar works generate a lot more words.

I listen to a very wide spectrum of classical music these days and this seems to mean for me that I am mostly interested in music that is really wonderful. I don't have that much time to spend with the merely interesting or the merely well crafted. But, if I don't really hate a piece, I do want to listen to at least two or three times. But, personally, I do welcome the chance to spend some intense time with the big works. I came to chamber music relatively late and still don't know some of the major quartets _that _well. I can recognise them and even usually hum along but have found often that spending a lot of concentrated time with one such work does still bring me big rewards. I think both of my offerings to the group have been major works (Schubert and Mozart). I didn't know the Schubert very well, and it didn't get much love or attention here, but it was still a great opportunity for me to get to know a work that I now treasure so much.

I do know what you mean about lists and ranking recordings but hearing different takes of a great work does often give me a deeper feel for what it can do. As for choosing "the best", I think we all know there is no such thing. But we all will have accounts that work better than others for us and we do often reach something like a consensus on the (perhaps many) recordings that may belong in a group of "the better ones". There are not many places in this forum where such a broad consensus is arrived at! Certainly, these discussions about performance have brought me to some wonderful music making that I might otherwise have not tried ... as well as to some that don't sound that special to me.

Perhaps, there are aspects of this thread that give you what you want more than other aspects. But I think we are all a bit like that and few of us participate every week.


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## starthrower

No matter what the direction of conversation here, just the fact that a quartet is being discussed motivates me to listen to the piece and get to know it. I have two complete cycles of Beethoven quartets but I never really focused on Op.95 until this week. I am taking more of a liking to this quartet as I continue to listen and I'm beginning to hear what is going on musically. I find all four movements interesting and engaging with plenty of stimulation and appealing music. As Steve mentioned, the challenge is to get into a space where one can listen intensely without distractions so the musical narrative and conversation is truly being absorbed and understood. And too many times this doesn't happen and I feel shortchanged. But this weekly discussion motivates me to make sure I find the time to do it.


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## Carmina Banana

Henry,
I agree somewhat with your point. I am less interested in comments about recordings of standard works if they are merely ranking them in order of "excellence." I have seen a pattern among rich patrons of the arts (no offense to any of you rich patrons out there). They often care about one thing: which one is the best. Which is the best piano to buy, who is the best violinist, which is the best seat in the house?
I find that exhausting and depressing.

However, if we are considering *why* one recording can bring a piece alive for us, the listener, then we are starting to get at what makes a composition tick and, by extension, why music works or doesn't work. Even a small thing like microphone placement can be very interesting if we relate it to why it makes or breaks that recording for us.

I have really enjoyed the less known and/or newer string quartets that we have listened to. But I also think because we are constantly comparing even new quartets to late Beethoven, I feel the need to keep going back and trying to understand what that means. And we can't really understand late or middle period LVB without understanding early LVB and we can't understand early LVB without understanding Haydn, etc. 
That's my two cents.


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## Mandryka

Two op 95 which I think are interesting. The Smetana on Supraphon - because it is so beautiful, for once you find yourself really relishing the lyrical music in the quartet. And The Leipzig Quartet on MDG - partly because the sound is so fabulous, like you’re at a really good concert.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Artemis' incredibly intense account first and after that to the Leipzigers, as recommended by Mandryka. This is extraordinary. How can one pack so many conflicting emotions into such a tiny space like in the first movement? The second movement by Artemis sounded to me like a Musical Offering with a death wish. The third movement I found really exciting when played by the Leipzigers. I found the Artemis treatment too harsh. The fourth movement is really clever. The fast motif after the introduction (another marvel itself) is maybe the most accessible part of the quartet, and the prestissimo ending is a hoot!


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## SearsPoncho

After a great mediation (I bring this up for a reason I'll address later) which allowed me to leave work early and take my 14 year-old daughter to our favorite ice cream place for sundaes, in the words of George Costanza, "I'm bustin', Jerry. I'm bustin!'" In my elevated mood, I felt like discussing my favorite composer, Beethoven, as well as some other timely subjects. I hope you will indulge me because this might be long and unfocused (it will be!), as I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to write at the moment. Here goes...

What a wonderfully bizarre, revolutionary, avant-garde composer Beethoven was! This week's string quartet, the "Serioso" is a good example. But before addressing that, I feel it's necessary to discuss something I haven't seen much discussion about: Beethoven's Three Periods. You know them. Early Haydnesque and Mozart-like music. Revolutionary and heroic music - the powerful, famous stuff. Late avant-garde, transcendent, chromatic, mystical, harmonically ambiguous music which is still confounding music lovers in the 21st century. I think the 3 period designations are generally acceptable and good guideposts for the casual listener. However, there are so many exceptions to this construct, that I wonder how many exceptions are permissible before the construct has to be torn down? Even in Opus 1, we have the 3rd Piano Trio, which could surely reside in his 2nd period. And that's Opus 1! Of course, there are many other examples, which leads us to this week's selection.

Is the Serioso the gateway composition/drug to the late quartets? How about piano sonatas Op.109-111? What about Op. 101 and 106? I actually find that the Razumovsky quartets can arguably be as difficult as the late quartets, with many examples of unpredictable start-stop music, tonal confusion, unusual transitions, as well as an extremely large expressive palette. We can even find seeds of the 3rd period in the supposedly conservative 1st period. I'll leave the 3 Period construct to those new to classical music - I enjoy it all, and I'm not sure that I feel the need to engage in such categorization after enjoying Ludwig Van's music for over three decades.

The Serioso is a tough one to analyze, so I'll leave that to those who are smarter than me. I'll just give you my thoughts and observations. Concise? Hell yeah! What a 1st movement he composed. It's over before you know it, but in that time the music alternates between an an aggressive rhythmic barrage and lyrical content. Exposition repeat? Who needs a bloody exposition repeat. I believe the 2nd movement is necessary to catch one's breath - a needed respite before the onslaught continues. Unlike the next 5 quartets, the "slow(er)" movement is not a cathartic event; there's an underlying tension throughout. By the way, the movement is marked Allegretto ma non troppo. In 21st century America, this marking appears to be a paradox. I will not go into all the reasons why, but the reason I bring it up is because it convinces me that the language composers used in the early 19th century did not have the exact same meaning they are believed to have now. Anyhow, the attack continues, and the Serioso seriously heads for a serious conclusion...and then the coda. Beethoven winking at us? I don't think it's completely irrelevant that Beethoven allegedly intended this quartet for a "small circle of connoisseurs, and not the general public.

Anyhow, on to something else...

This is a post a made a while back in response to a member who was on the fence about joining our group (Ironically, it appears he left* because there was too much modern, dissonant and obscure music. Nevertheless, I feel it is relevant in light of some recent posts)*:

"We're just a group that likes to listen to string quartets, and if the urge arises, discuss it. You can listen to a quartet once. You can hear the same recording multiple times. You can listen to multiple recordings and compare them. You can read about it. You can use it as a springboard to discover further music by a composer, or even other composers from the nominated composer's country and/or era. You can read what others write and decide if you want to listen to it. You can attend a live performance of the piece, although this is nearly impossible these days. You can look at the score, if that's your thing. You can analyze it. You can purchase a recording of the music. And you can hear it and post, "ooh, that sounds nice," which is a perfectly legitimate response and will be considered a valuable contribution by all members.

I think the title of this thread is instructive: it's for music lovers, and as a music lover you should feel free to do whatever you want with each week's nominated quartet. Most importantly, do not enter this with any inferiority complex; this should be a joyous exercise for music lovers. That's it."

It's interesting that one member left because he perceived us to be too adventurous, while another extremely valued member might leave because we're not adventurous enough. This brings me back to my mediation. The mediator happened to be a gentleman who participated in my 1st mediation. I'll never forget what he told me that 1st time: Generally speaking, the best mediations and negotiations are the ones where neither side feels completely happy. If both sides are a little pissed off, it's a win-win. In my day job, I spend a great deal of time negotiating, and I've found this to be true on most occasions.

So, here we are. If one member thinks we're too adventurous and another thinks we're not adventurous enough, maybe we're doing something right. By the way, we've had a lot of unusual stuff over the last several months, including the ski glove violinist, a few quartets that commenced with "white noise," and a lot of fairly obscure music which I'm confident many members were unfamiliar with, or, at the very least, did not know very well. Our own Knorf studied with a few composers we featured, and I'm sure many were unfamiliar with them.

I have no problem with those that do the comparative reviews because I don't have the discipline to do them. I know they're doing it out of love for the music, and I find them to be a valuable resource. I usually just stick to discussions of the music, and I might mention one or two recordings. There's room here for everybody! If I wanted to just go with the flow and what's popular, I would go to a pop music forum to discuss the latest abominations of Nikki Minaj or Taylor Swift. I listen to classical music. I'm well out of the mainstream.

Ok, that's enough for now.


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## starthrower

> So, here we are. If one member thinks we're too adventurous and another thinks we're not adventurous enough, maybe we're doing something right. By the way, we've had a lot of unusual stuff over the last several months, including the ski glove violinist, a few quartets that commenced with "white noise," and a lot of fairly obscure music which I'm confident many members were unfamiliar with, or, at the very least, did not know very well.


Well said, Poncho! You're remarks prompted me to take another look at the table of contents on the first page and it's a pretty impressive list. And we still have four months to go before we reach the two year anniversary of this thread.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> There's a huge amount of gentle, lyrical music all through the quartet! In fact, my reason for being interested in the music lies in the bizarre abrupt juxtaposition of the sweet and reticent and the overbearing and aggressive-- both monophonically and polyphonically. Why on earth did Beethoven do that? The result is like Empfindsamkeit on steroids. I think he was taking the ****.
> 
> Or had Beethoven anticipated Schoenberg's ideas in this famous letter to Busoni?


I was listening to the Cremona's recording the yesterday. It starts almost violently (and excitingly) - perhaps to an exaggerated degree (I guess some will be offended by it?) - but they give us the frequent sublime (rather than sweet and reticent) passages in a similarly forthright manner. This recording, perhaps more than most, seems to exemplify the mad side that you are hearing. I don't know about Empfindsamkeit here but steroids did come to mind for me. It's a recording I enjoy.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Well said. Thanks.

Well I'm just now listening to this for the first time since it was picked. This may be the first time I've listened to it since I bought the Takacs SQ cycle last year. It's hard for me to believe this is Beethoven. Especially the first movement. I'm going to need to give this a few more listens but initially I love the dark forcefulness of this work. It's truly surprising if like me you aren't familiar with it.


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## Merl

I'll stay out of the petty bickering of what should and shouldnt be in this thread (although I agree perfectly with SP's superb post) and not mention comparative recordings ever again (sorry, thats just my thing - although I do talk about many aspects of most string quartets apart from just the recordings, especially if they're generally considered to be lesser works). Personally, I dont care what anyone posts in here, whether its an in-depth musical analysis or a host of recommendations but I'm obviously getting peoples' backs up so I'd rather avoid the conflict. Although I'm sunning myself in Spain, my mate sent me a screenshot of 2 pages of notes from my house so I could finish my (personal) blog review. If anyone is vaguely interested it's the newest blog entry when you hit the blog button.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Merl said:


> I'll stay out of the petty bickering of what should and shouldnt be in this thread (although I agree perfectly with SP's superb post) and not mention comparative recordings ever again (sorry, thats just my thing - although I do talk about many aspects of most string quartets apart from just the recordings, especially if they're generally considered to be lesser works). Personally, I dont care what anyone posts in here, whether its an in-depth musical analysis or a host of recommendations but I'm obviously getting peoples' backs up so I'd rather avoid the conflict. Although I'm sunning myself in Spain, my mate sent me a screenshot of 2 pages of notes from my house so I could finish my (personal) blog review. If anyone is vaguely interested it's the newest blog entry when you hit the blog button.


Please, Merl, don't abandon your incredibly helpful and interesting recording reviews! You have a highly treasured role on this thread for that reason. My preferences for performances are sometimes different than yours (I'm one of the people you criticized in another thread for being fine with sloppy intonation because it's more "spontaneous" but I love your often out-of-the-box opinions and willingness to hear anything.


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## starthrower

Buenas tardes, Merl! Don't get too burnt out in the Spanish sun. I hope you'll continue to turn us on to great performances in this thread. Keep doing your thing here. I'm pretty sure everyone can handle it! Enjoy the rest of your holiday!


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Please, Merl, don't abandon your incredibly helpful and interesting recording reviews! You have a highly treasured role on this thread for that reason. My preferences for performances are sometimes different than yours (I'm one of the people you criticized in another thread for being fine with sloppy intonation because it's more "spontaneous" but I love your often out-of-the-box opinions and willingness to hear anything.


Strongly seconded. Merl's compendious surveys are invaluable and represent a great asset in this thread. I'm not sure I read any petty bickering, myself, but maybe I wasn't reading as closely as I should have. This is the only thread I spend any time with at the moment and I absolutely expect a Merl survey on this vital work to be part of it!


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Buenas tardes, Merl! Don't get too burnt out in the Spanish sun. I hope you'll continue to turn us on to great performances in this thread. Keep doing your thing here. I'm pretty sure everyone can handle it! Enjoy the rest of your holiday!


Thanks ST. Been a glorious day today after 2 days with a strong levante wind. A rather pleasant 28 degrees right now



Allegro Con Brio said:


> ..... My preferences for performances are sometimes different than yours (I'm one of the people you criticized in another thread for being fine with sloppy intonation because it's more "spontaneous" but I love your often out-of-the-box opinions and willingness to hear anything.


I must be softening in my old age, ACB. Even the Juilliard's pitchy 1963 recording got into this list. Lol. The picture below was taken before I had to endure a recording I'd missed by the Windermere Quartet, on period instruments, that has really awful, scratchy sound for a 2017 recording. I'm off to listen to the Leipzigers do it properly, again, in great sound.

As I've said in my blog, this is still my favourite LVB quartet. As usual I can tolerate many different styles but if it starts too slow I find the whole quartet can get a bit weighted down in the first movement. I do love a damn good allegretto agitato and allegro in the final movement though (check how the Leipzigers and Ebene do this - mmmm!). It was strange how I eventually came back to an old favourite here too.


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## Knorf

*Better living through edits*

Merl, I really like and respect your recording overviews. You approach your listening with remarkably minimal prejudice-which I admire greatly-you acknowledge and appreciate a range of tastes and approaches to everything, and you don't ever resort to hyperbole either to effusively praise your favorites or cruelly bash your not-so-favorites (and by extension bash those whose tastes differ).

I wrote:


Knorf said:


> Is there any chance we'll discuss more about it than merely comparing recordings?


...and I now see how out of context this reads like I'm bashing posts comparing recordings in general, which I really didn't mean.

Certainly, when comparative posts have the integrity of Merl's expansive and thoughtful listening, how could I complain? I've used his overviews as a guide for my own purchases multiple times.

Sometimes it does seem like when the quartet of the week is standard repertoire there's a tendency for it to receive really minimal substantive discussion in lieu of comparisons, which among music enthusiasts can bring out some of the worst fan habits. I admit I've lost patience with some of this.

But really there are always going to be recording comparison posts in a thread like this, and I accept that; more than just accept, I appreciate them, especially it when they're done well and all the more so when it's repertoire I don't know already, which happens from time to time. I just hope there can be _more_ than that. (And there often is, to be fair, just less so when there's standard rep involved.)


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## Carmina Banana

Merl,
Your posts about recordings are the gold standard. I need those. There are always intelligent reasons for your picks and I love to listen and see if I agree or disagree (I almost always agree).


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl. What these guys said. Don't stop. I love your comparative posts. I usually end up getting one of your recommendations if it's a work I don't have.


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## Kreisler jr

It's a great and unique piece, amazing in many ways. I think it is Beethoven's shortest quartet, at least by playing time (I am not going to count bars) but it actually feels quite spacious at times. Beethoven manages to get two "trio" sections into the 3rd movements and a slow introduction and a contrasting coda into a 4:30 finale. The 2nd movement must be one of the bleakest Beethoven movements, I can hardly think of anything like it, certainly not anything that is in the major mode but sounds similarly distraught and hopeless. The most condensed is probably the first movement cutting out almost all transitioning passages and just putting the contrasting material immediately next to each other.


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## HenryPenfold

Plea to Merl

I think you might be taking (mainly) my and Knorf’s critical observations about the thread personally. You shouldn’t. 

You are the main driver behind the positive dynamic of this thread and that’s greatly appreciated. But we must not be self-congratulatory and back-slapping when we identify this thread as the gold standard of discussion on the forum (which, arguably it might be).

If we become complacent, the thread will suffer. We must take fair criticism on the chin, while not taking it personally!

There is no bickering going on and the criticisms are not petty. 

Please trust your follow contributors and let’s get back to business as usual. 

Regards

Henry


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## StevehamNY

Merl: Second, third, and fourth what has already been said here about your recordings rundown! One of the highlights of the week, and I still go back and check old rankings. So you better not stop or else I'll send someone to Spain to find you. 

(I have a sordid history in the country, having been arrested there twice. Talked our way out of it once, bribed our way out the second. Bet you didn't now I'm such an international badass.)


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## HenryPenfold

Addendum 

Perhaps we can, in this thread, be a beacon for the wider forum, showing how to resolve disputes in a conciliatory, diplomatic and harmonious fashion. 

Henry


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## Knorf

StevehamNY said:


> (I have a sordid history in the country, having been arrested there twice. Talked our way out of it once, bribed our way out the second. Bet you didn't now I'm such an international badass.)


Oh, we knew. We knew. It was all in the dossier on you when you applied for TC membership. That, and the Belgium Incident.


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## StevehamNY

Knorf said:


> Oh, we knew. We knew. It was all in the dossier on you when you applied for TC membership. That, and the Belgium Incident.


Do not get me started on the Belgium Incident. That was a woman dressed to look exactly like me, I swear!


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## Merl

OK, sorry folks. Thanks for the love. I probably misread and over-reacted to the whole thing but didn't wanna cause any problems by monopolising the thread (I dislike conflict). My blog post is linked below. A lot of different recordings this time and nice that an old fave (and new one) came out on top. As usual you'll definitely disagree with some but if it helps you find something new then my job is done.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3519-beethoven-string-quartet-11-a.html



Kreisler jr said:


> It's a great and unique piece, amazing in many ways. I think it is Beethoven's shortest quartet, at least by playing time (I am not going to count bars) but it actually feels quite spacious at times. Beethoven manages to get two "trio" sections into the 3rd movements and a slow introduction and a contrasting coda into a 4:30 finale. The 2nd movement must be one of the bleakest Beethoven movements, I can hardly think of anything like it, certainly not anything that is in the major mode but sounds similarly distraught and hopeless. The most condensed is probably the first movement cutting out almost all transitioning passages and just putting the contrasting material immediately next to each other.


Yeah it's such a short quartet for Beethoven but there's so much packed into it. When I listen to the last movement I always have the feeling that Beethoven is playing with us when he rounds things out with major key happiness. Irony is a word that's often banded about when talking about the Serioso but I think it's important. After all this quartet was written for "a small circle of connoisseurs" and friends suggested it was never intended to be published by Beethoven but he bowed to a certain degree of peer pressure and published it 6 years after its writing. All I can say is thank god he did.


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## Carmina Banana

I would like to respond a bit to SearsPoncho's thoughtful post:
Yes, I think the periods are a bit arbitrary (kind of like the cutoff point between classical and romantic) and maybe not always the best way of looking at Beethoven. In my mind, it is not so much a difference of style or overall sound, but methodology. In the middle period, he seemed able to combine contrasting elements within the confines of classical forms and come out victorious (both in the sense of emotional gratification and reestablishment of tonal center [or maybe they are the same?]), but in the late period, reconciling of disparate elements became much more strained or even impossible. It was as if, he created problems so great that even the creator of the problem could not solve it (could God create a stone so heavy that he could not lift it?).

All of this leads to my fascination with article on Irony. The concept seemed to preoccupy much of the artists and intellectuals of the time. But they defined it quite differently than our current Merriam Webster does. For instance, the author writes about Friedrich Schlegel and his linking of the term irony with the word "Schweben," a sort of floating between extreme states and not giving in to one or the other. This is not something exclusive to artists but includes the audience as well. However, it was understood that only certain select audiences were sophisticated enough to understand this (possibly accounting for Beethoven's remarks about opus 95 not being for the general public).

There is a very interesting anecdote from Czerny about how, after an improvisation, Beethoven turned to see his listeners weeping with emotion. He seemed to have nothing but derision for them and called them fools.

This was confusing to me at first, but I think I am beginning to see the light. There was an expectation that a great listener would go beyond a gut reaction and appreciate a work of art with a more philosophical attitude.

Here is a bit from the article that gets at heart of it:

"With its emphasis on the mutually productive tension between opposites, this type of irony can be understood as a form of dialectic, as indeed it was by Schlegel and his contemporaries. Schlegel defined an idea as a "concept perfected to the point of irony . . . a constantly self-producing fluctuation of two conflicting thoughts." The key word here is "constantly." Irony may begin with negation but it does not end there. In fact, it never ends-hence the occasional designation "infinite irony." For Schlegel, irony is by its very nature always in flux, a "constant alternation of self-creation and self-destruction." Synthesis, such as it is, is necessarily provisional and temporary. Irony was to his mind not merely a fallback, but rather the best epistemological approach available, the only position honest enough to accommodate the chaotic universe on its own chaotic terms and embrace-not overcome, but embrace-the irreconcilable differences between subject and object through a perpetual state of oscillation, of hovering, of Schweben."


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## Malx

Having come to the quartet genre a bit late in the day I may have built up a fair collection of recordings but I haven't delved into the depths of each and every quartet on my shelves - here is another that I have not spent a lot of time with.

That oversight has been rectified this week - its a killer. Someone used the word 'condensed' earlier in the thread I agree it is concise and to the point, whatever the point actually is, with nary a note or phrase wasted.

The first movement was over in a flash, could he have developed the themes more - or was this intended to be a short, sharp, shock to get the audiences attention? The powerful yet subtle rhythms and harmonies are wonderful.

I wonder if the two middle movements can be viewed together as the heart of the work, they almost run into one another - the 'Serioso' of the name? I have no clue but on repeated listening I think of them as connected in some way.
The dark and moody Allegretto that has little ****** of light occuring on occasion is masterful and then the meaty Allegro moves things on with energy and gusto. The finale is over in an instant, clearly the sign of great music - no looking at the watch to see how long to go here - the coda is a surprise but a fine one. Perhaps oddly when listening to the coda a few times I thought of the coda at the end of the Egmont overture for some reason - I cannot really understand why!

Just my uneducated take on the piece - but I'm sure its clear that after spending time with it I'm hooked.

I listened to: Alban Berg Quartet, Suske Quartet, Gewandhaus Quartet, Belcea Quartet, Alexander Quartet (1st set), Toyko Quartet (HM) and for a historical view the Hungarian Quartet - none of them failed in my view.


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## Kreisler jr

Very perceptive, I have seen the Egmont comparison in the literature. The similarity is that the Coda feels rather "tacked on" it is not "worked out", no arduous transformation but a sudden change. Many commentators found this less than satisfying and I think Kerman in his book on the quartets clearly prefers the "worked out" version of a somewhat similar movement, namely the finale op.132 (even the main themes are somewhat similar in shape).

And the 3rd movement does follow without break on the 2nd

Two other Beethoven pieces I was somewhat reminded of, less in structure or themes but more general mood and gestures, are the first movement op.90 that seems similarly "angry" and is also quite short and like the finale op.95 it has the second theme not in a major key but in the dominant minor which is comparably rare. And the Coriolan ouverture that is obviously far more spacious but also has the explosive gruffness and sudden contrasts.


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## Carmina Banana

Here are a couple recordings that stood out for me. I am enjoying a lot of the favorites that others have listed and I am also interested in "authentic" recordings if anyone has recommendations. 
*The Emersons* (1994) rip through the first movement at a very vigorous tempo. I'll have to say this is an interesting approach-to really emphasize the terseness of this movement by making it even more terse. I think the contrasts here are not very extreme, though. The mood of the more lyrical parts seems pretty much the same despite changes in dymamics. I like a more night and day within the first few measures. The second movement is very transparent. I hear an independence of lines that I don't hear from most recordings. The coda of the last movement is, of course, super fast and virtuosic. I'm not sure if virtuosity is the point, but it is an interesting approach. In summary, not my favorite recording but I value it because I can hear the whole piece with a different perspective. 
(Interesting side note: I just noticed a live performance on YT by the Emerson from much later and the tempo is slightly more relaxed).

The Budapest Quartet (I1951) has a lot of wonderful qualities. In the first movement they emphasize the beauty of the lyrical moments more than most groups I have heard. In the second movement, they make those walking bass notes longer and vibrate more, making it a more human gesture, less mysterious. The scherzo is more tragic than angry. They manage to create a feeling of resignation instead of protest. Very interesting. In the last movement, they almost sneak into the coda. It is an organic approach to "tacking on" this ending. 
In general I was intensely aware of how much the musicians truly love this music. It is probably more common these days to approach classical music with more detachment, but it is refreshing to the music played this way.


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## Chilham

Kreisler jr said:


> ... the Coda feels rather "tacked on" it is not "worked out"....


Damn it! Merl's been bugging me to contribute rather than lurk in this thread and the first time I work out something to say and you beat me to it!

:lol:


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## Allegro Con Brio

After taking in a couple recordings while out walking on a gloriously crisp, refreshing fall day; I finally feel ready to offer some rambling comments that may or may not make some sort of coherent sense by the time I'm done, but here goes anyway.

I see Beethoven's string quartets as one of the key bodies of work in all classical music; one that everyone who fancies themselves an enthusiast not only of music but of the Great Conversation of art and ideas needs to be familiar with. This is not due to their sheer compositional genius, nor their diversity, nor even their "importance" in the development of how composers thought about music, but the fact that they express ideas and feelings that, at least for me, are utterly unmatched in any other artistic experience. Especially from this quartet (No. 11) onward, they inhabit a realm where the utterly grotesque, piercingly elegiac, unabashedly bawdy, and extravagantly sublime exist on an equal plane. They are mirrors of the soul of a man not by any means thinking unknown thoughts but doing what had never been done before - channelling the ebb and flow of innermost passions and strivings into organized sound. The vicissitudes of the human spirit cannot be described in simple phrases, and so these works are startling hodgepodges of the highest order. They are masterpieces of high humanism that shoots for the transcendent, conveying thoughts that can only be communicated through the intimate form of the quartet. Beethoven realized this model on a much grander scale in the other late quartets, but perhaps he never encapsulated his artistic credo so perfectly as he did here.

My first couple times listening to this, my impressions remained the same as before - somewhat baffled. What exactly is Beethoven trying to say? Why can't he lighten up the mood at least for a fleeting second rather than offering up some sort of challenging thought in every phrase? In other words, why so remorselessly "serioso?" Then, when I approached the task again with my most committed listening cap on, it clicked. Even turning my attention away for a few seconds has the potential to cause me to lose the argument of the music. In order to be truly respectful admirers and revelers in Beethoven's accomplishment here, we need to be put ourselves in his position - a deaf man whose life is music, fighting to represent the heroic, enlightened ideals of his constitution through insurmountable barriers of suffering that would seem to disprove his ideals. Say all you want about the perils of reading autobiographical elements into music, but I see no way around it here - the "Serioso" is a stream-of-consciousness representation of Beethoven's soul. As we soak up the astonishing distillation of conflict between fury and radiance in the first movement, the quintessentially Beethovenian blend of melancholy and irony in the wandering slow movement, the relentless spitfire gyrations of the scherzo, and the breathless romp toward oblivion in the finale that concludes in a ruthlessly satirical mockery of optimism that never fails to get me belly laughing; we get a taste of the Beethoven who is not striving for an epic shout to the heavens as he is elsewhere, but simply showing us how he really feels. He is being the most "serioso" that he can be. And that's why he is so great.

I'll be back within the next couple days with a final roundup of recordings I've assessed, but I can say so far that I've really enjoyed the Wihan and Melos. The former has to be one of the most underrated Beethoven quartet cycles around - I've loved it for a long time - and I think they get just about everything right, conveying a glowing warmth that is both incendiary and bucolic by turns; with some very exciting playing in the "furious" portions. The Melos maybe lean a bit too lyrical for this very dangerous music, but it's hard not to fall for their drop-dead gorgeous delivery of the angelic music in the first movement and their quicker, rustically smiling second movement. I was truly surprised to see the Ebéne as Merl's top pick, as I had previously heard them and thought it highly detached, monochrome, and workaday; nothing like the sumptuous delicacy of their celebrated earlier French quartet disc. But maybe that comes down to my personal favoring of romantic lyricism where it's not really called for; and their hard-nosed, brusque dispatching of the piece may come closer to what Beethoven heard in the ears of his heart.


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## starthrower

ACB, I hope you'll give the Ebene's another go. IMO, their playing is superb in all four movements. They have the hard driving energy, and fleetness of foot (or is that fingers?) in the swift movements, and the depth and pathos in the wonderful Allegretto. My personal favorite movement of this quartet. When I first got this set I wasn't crazy about the close mic'd sound due to the fact that I was listening to the Tokyo RCA recordings. But I've gotten accustomed to it and overall I believe it's excellent cycle. I also enjoyed the Wihan's.


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## StevehamNY

We've already been through enough collected Beethoven album covers to see the highs and the lows, but I stumbled upon this pairing of Serioso with Schubert's #15 by the Oslo String Quartet, with Munch's "Red and White" on the cover. It's an interesting enough choice to put these two particular quartets together, but I passed this album cover by until something nagged at me and I came back to it:









Two women. One whose face you can't really see. Another whose face you can see quite well, but everything else about her (from her expression to her hands hidden behind her back) suggest a woman guarding a secret.

After reading all of the great insights shared here this week, and listening to this quartet several times (individually, not in sequence with other LVB quartets), I think I'm starting to understand the significance of this cover image and perhaps its brilliance?


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## Merl

There were so many different approaches and like you, ACB, I did enjoy the Melos who play really lovingly but with a nice bit of heft. I felt the same about the Gewandhaus. Glad you mentioned the Wihan which was high up on my recommended list and it is a fine underrated cycle. With over 100 recordings there's something there for everyone from the gentle, lyrical approach to the straight down the middle to the hard-hitting. The reason I love the ABQs here is they are brusque, taut, serious and strong when called for then lighten up towards the end. The biggest disappointments, for me, were the Auryns who really didn't get this one and play the whole quartet in a strangely woolly, uncommitted way and the Amadeus who have an annoying habit of speeding up towards the end of every movement. That new Dover recording (thanks Spotify) is very nice. I can see the Dover set being a well-regarded cycle if they can give the late quartets enough gravitas when they get there. Interesting that Steve mentions the Oslo recording. It's a nice reading and in a smaller field it would have made the final reckoning but I just felt that a few others had a slightly better sound but were similar in style. 

I do enjoy very different accounts of Beethoven when I'm doing my reviews. Wouldn't it be dull if every SQ took the same approach? There's no set way to play them, it's just that we have our own preferences. Increasingly, though, I'm really digging those different approaches or those that are a bit quirky which is why I liked the Suske, who just drop in little touches that are slightly old-fashioned but sound organic. I think it was Mandryka who enjoyed the Smetana earlier in the thread and I get that. Theirs is a lyrical, highly colorful approach and the playing is at times very special. Thanks, as usual, to Bananaman for the choice. I'm going to be revisiting a couple of these over the next few days and some might be moving up my list dependent upon how I'm feeling.

PS. I just read your comment about the Budapest 51 recording, CB, and realised I'd not played it so I'll do that now (via Spotify) . I occasionally miss a few or don't have access.

PPS. Thanks for that one, CB. For a 51 recording the Budapest is surprisingly clear and present. It's not a million miles from their stereo effort in realisation so I'll tack it on to my recommended list as I found this a charming and quirky recording. I agree about the covert way they round things out in the 4th. It's a nice touch.


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## Burbage

It's Friday, so this. As a mostly hit-and-run contributor, I've not been following the discussion very closely, so forgive me if all this has been said before.

To well-tuned ears, F minor is the best of all possible keys. There is something precarious about it that makes it very versatile, as unsettling as that inescapable friend or relative who specialises in the destabilising comment, who can't give a compliment or consolation without a "despite" or "considering" at the end of it. To the outsider, it might sound difficult, or just awkward, but its fundamental honesty makes it more valuable than any of its siblings, be they gratuitously sunny or performatively glum.

That may be why it seems to be over-represented in study pieces. Bruckner's nullty-nullth, for example, is in F minor, as is Stenhammar's first, un-numbered, quartet. And this, uncommissioned, "serioso" quartet was not one Beethoven seems to have wanted publicly performed at least at first. That said, both Reicha and Onslow had F minor quartets on the market within a few years of this, so it's clearly not a universal taboo, though the key generally is considered as odd as a rustic uncle.

Beethoven was, by all accounts, feeling a bit odd at this time in his life, and, according to the usual sources, about to give up on being 'heroic' and start being 'late'. Though he might not have been aware of that, he will have been turning forty, always an age of anxiety, even in these days when, unlike Beethoven, sufferers can at least console themselves with the thought that they've outlived Schubert. And so, like many before and since, he seems to have turned to his metaphorical shed to engage in an unwise pursuit of his own volition.

"Quartetto Serioso" reflects that, perhaps. The flibbertigibbet, tub-thumping Beethoven of old, the reliable progenitor of frothy entertainments for an adoring public, is also a serious, meaningful composer, producing a work for himself, and those like him. His youthful days of Napoleon-worship were fading (as would everyone's before long) and, at least for now, Beethoven's hero was Beethoven.

In those days, when nobody was aware of mental health, that wouldn't necessarily have been as comfortable a thing as it is now, as I was reminded when, probably in contravention of some principle, reading around the 'new' Beethoven symphony recently. Just after I'd got to wondering how it is that "artificial intelligence" has come to mean nothing of the sort ("machine learning", though it can be impressive, is another thing entirely), and more-or-less concluded that that's what happens when marketing departments and press offices run the world, I stumbled over Jan Swafford's piece*, which included the following on Beethoven:

"In contrast say to Mozart and Bach, with him it's often as if you can hear the effort, the struggle, hear in the notes what it cost him to rise above the universal mediocrity - and the frequent mediocrity of his sketches - into something that he considered worthy of his name, worthy of an immortal place in the long human chronicle, worthy of the talent God's nature gave him. That, and the need to pay the rent."

Which, though arguable, pushes a fair-sized finger into the squishy heart of this week's matter, which happens to be an uncommissioned, perhaps reluctantly-published, piece of Beethoven's which, by all accounts, was done more as an essay than a showpiece.

For that's how it sounds to me, at any rate, if not so much a struggle, as an experiment. From the late-Haydnesque gesture at the get-go to the unsettling chords near the finish, this sounds like a real attempt to synthesise something, with every trick, more or less, in the book. It's not a long piece, and it seems to follow a more-or-less generic classical plan (though it also doesn't), but it manages to be fairly bizarre while it's doing it. The second movement, before it segues into the galumphing third, sounds like a wilful experiment in keeping things going while throwing hurdles in its way. Which is, I guess, what most music is, to some extent but, because this is Beethoven, the hurdles aren't witty so much as challenging. If, as is reported, Beethoven thought the general public wouldn't much like it, I think he'd have had good reasons; it sounds like music for musicians.

I'm not a musician, but, despite that, alongside strange sepulchral harmonies, I hear things that sound like fugues, odd little ostinatos, chorales and the ghost of a cantus firmus. It's practically baroque, a sort of cantata for strings, devoted to music itself.

* https://van-magazine.com/mag/jan-swafford-beethoven-x/


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## starthrower

> I'm not a musician, but, despite that, alongside strange sepulchral harmonies, I hear things that sound like fugues, odd little ostinatos, chorales and the ghost of a cantus firmus. It's practically baroque, a sort of cantata for strings, devoted to music itself.


You're certainly a good a listener, Burbage. And a superb writer! In the company of yourself along with ACB, the musicians here, and our resident classical music listening guide editor, Merl, I find myself the perpetual struggling student trying to keep up. And this is a good thing! I'm learning everyday which is the point. Merl reminded us that there are over a hundred recordings of Op.95, so ACB can disregard my urging to revisit the Quatuor Ebene's performance. I got caught up in my enthusiasm but I'm a strong advocate for every listener following their own path.

I would assume that over 60 years after the advent of stereo recording there would have emerged some established guidelines among the engineering community on how to properly record a string quartet? But after listening to several Op.95 recordings it doesn't sound like there is much uniformity at all. And I suppose this is a good thing for the sake of diversity and taste, but with this quartet a proper balance is crucial for my listening enjoyment. Considering the generous amount of fast and furious content, too much room sound and reverb made it impossible for me to enjoy. And I noticed with close miking techniques it can provide greater resolution or an unpleasant claustrophobic effect that doesn't breathe, so maybe Merl could mention some of these details when presenting his final tally of top recordings? I'd appreciate that angle in conjunction with the performance aspects. And if he's already done so I'll go back and re-read his posts.


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## Carmina Banana

A couple thoughts about the music and a couple more listening observations:

There have been some great comments lately, including the Burbage Weekly Wisdom and a really nicely worded post from ACB.
Starthrower:
I worked briefly with a piano technician who told me “tuning pianos is not a science but an art.” I think the same could be said for recording engineers and producers. I think we acknowledge this more in the realm of popular music strangely enough.

These are just some random thoughts. There is no follow through, but I wanted to get them out since we are almost at the end of the week (!)
-I remember once being at an early music conference and hearing a lot of baroque music. There was a demonstration of some fortepianos and I heard someone playing the Beethoven opus 28. Wow, such long phrases, I said and somebody vigorously agreed with me. We were used to the short expressive gestures of the baroque and this was quite different. Beethoven could write long, ornate lines of melody with the best of them, but once in while started a piece with a shockingly short statement. Among these, I would consider his first quartet (in F major), this quartet (in f minor) and the last quartet (F major). 
-For Beethoven the fugue seemed to have a special function. He didn’t use it often, but when he did, it was almost as if he had run out of options and had to resort to the great ancestors of music for help. Interesting that in this second movement, fugal writing sort of comes and goes.
-In almost every scherzo, there is a little rhythmic “joke.” This quartet has one that is particularly strong. I challenge anyone to hear the first note as a downbeat. It is clearly a pickup. And yet it is written as a downbeat. Why is confusion necessary for Beethoven at this point in a piece? He marks this movement, allegro assai vivace ma serioso. A serious joke?

As I said, just unfinished thoughts. Here are a couple “authentic” listens. Thanks to Josquin for the tip about the Chiaroscuro.

Chiaroscuro

There is a quietness overall. It leans more to introspection and something deeply personal. 
The first movement is very slow compared to most recordings. Due to this pace and also a tendency toward the quietest dynamics, I hear a much greater separation between the stark, declarative statement of the opening and the vulnerable lyrical material. 
The scherzo is underplayed at first but increases in intensity as it goes. One advantage to not overdoing the implied accent on the second beat in the opening measures is that when the szorzandi appear later on the second beat of a measure it really stands out. This is very intelligent playing in my opinion. 
The last movement starts with a real feeling of being lost. Beethoven does this often—wanders around sadly before finding his theme—but in this movement it is particularly poignant and this group portrays that beautifully. They also really let the movement subside before beginning the coda and I think it works. 

I think most listeners might say this recording is not aggressive or gritty enough, but I love it. I immediately want to listen to it again, which is unusual for me. I feel like I am able to hear the intricate textures of this piece and not have anything thrust at me. It is similar to the feelings I have about Shakespeare—just say the words clearly so I can enjoy the sound and work out the meaning. Don’t run around and scream all of the time because high energy is all that is important. 
There is also just beautiful soft nuances in this performance that I think are sometimes missing in other takes.

Eroica

There is something about their playing that I find somewhat grating. I don’t know if it is some intonation choices (both groups choose a lower pitch than A=440 but that doesn’t bother me since I am not blessed/cursed with perfect pitch) or the sound of some of their instruments or just their general approach to the piece, but I found parts of this recording a bit unpleasant.

Again, a slower take on the first movement. More explosive in the opening theme. A darker almost noisy quality sets the pace.

In the second movement I am very aware of a sort of steely quality to the sound and it is not agreeing with me.

The scherzo is interesting. A deliberate tempo and a weird hesitation in the third phrase. 

The last movement doesn’t start with the mysterious quality that I loved with the Chiaroscuro. They do a thing that “authentic” groups do—that swell without vibrato. I’m sure there is historical reasons for it, but it can be irritating at times. At any rate, I think this is one of those moments to keep everything on a low simmer for a while.

In general, I didn’t enjoy this recording.


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## starthrower

Your comment about the artistry of piano tuning and record production reminded me of an interesting interview I read with the late recording engineer, Jan Erik Kongshaug. Best known to music enthusiasts for his work with the ECM label. Although he discussed some of the equipment he used, he made a point to stress the quality of the piano and the superior tuner they employed for their recordings, and how this greatly contributed to the success of the recording in conjunction with talent of the artist(s). And that this care and attention to these details was not all that common with many studios.

https://www.inner-magazines.com/music/rainbow-studios-jan-erik-kongshaug/


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> .
> 
> In general, I didn't enjoy this recording.


You're not on your own with the Eroica recording, CB. I found that it really grated on me and I usually like the Eroicas a lot.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've PM'ed this week's schedule nominator, *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern*, to see if they are still interested. If we don't hear back by Sunday, it's up to *StevehamNY!*


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've PM'ed this week's schedule nominator, *GucciManeIsTheNewWebern*, to see if they are still interested. If we don't hear back by Sunday, it's up to *StevehamNY!*


Damn, I better get to the store tomorrow to buy some beets and cabbage!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Damn, I better get to the store tomorrow to buy some beets and cabbage!


And dont forget the HP sauce for us Northern Brits.


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> Damn, I better get to the store tomorrow to buy some beets and cabbage!


Mmm - wondering which composer will go best with Borscht!


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Mmm - wondering which composer will go best with Borscht!


Gliere?
............


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## Carmina Banana

Thanks to everyone for a stimulating week of Beethoven talk.
It reminds me of my days taking a graduate seminar on Beethoven quartets (I was an undergrad but eager and got all of my basic music course work done early). The woman leading it, a brilliant musicologist was a great inspiration to me. There were only about five of us (one of was a well known local music critic) and we sat in a circle. There was no faking it if you hadn’t done your homework. You had to say something interesting about the work. It infuriated her if you merely “inchwormed” your way through the piece. After years of stultifying music history classes, I was in heaven. 

Two moments I remember in particular. She mentioned how a certain passage was similar to how Monk would craft his improvisations and a student said, “I’m sorry. Could you go back to that religious figure you mentioned? I’m not familiar with him.”
Arg.
Then there was the time a new Phillip Glass work was in town (I think it The Photographer) and none of us had gone to see it. She let us have it! “It is like you were around to see the premiere of Monteverdi’s L’Orfeo and you chose not to.”


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## Allegro Con Brio

I agree with whoever said earlier that this quartet is rather limited in terms of interpretive possibilities than the other LvB quartets. I don't feel for the most part that the overall perception I had of the work changed that much between recordings besides more basic observations like tempo differences, lyrical vs. gruff, etc. IMO, the best results are achieved when the contrasts are strongly but not jarringly emphasized and the work is made to sound inexorable without a hint of artificial striving - "serioso," after all, means "sincerity" above all else. In this regard, though disagreeing with Merl's Ebene choice, I entirely concur with him on his preference for the ABQ. As usual their sonorities are so rich and blended that they sound like a small string orchestra, and they soften the work's rougher edges through some sort of magical sleight of hand of phrasing without sacrificing its drama - a prime example of this is the scherzo, where those awkward limping dance rhythms are made to stand out but aren't harshly attacked at all. It's cool, assured, but not short on creativity; and that's a pleasure. 

I've already mentioned my affinity for the Wihan and Melos (and I'd be remiss not to throw in another plug for the miraculous playing of the Budapest, shot through with fervor and enthusiasm), and in my sampling I also thoroughly enjoyed the Smetana's more sauntering, songful traipse through the Beethovenian consciousness; deploying some lovely legato even if did lack a bit of momentum; and the entirely distinctive playing of the Gewandhaus. This was my first time hearing this quartet, and I was immediately taken aback by the colloquial directness of their phrasing and the warm, mellow tone of the instruments - totally unlike anything else you've probably heard. In this recording I heard the work more as the "cantata" that Burbage sees it as (lovely thought, by the way, Burbage) - strongly connected across movements and the flow of the music really "felt" rather than just "played." Highly recommended.


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> Two moments I remember in particular. She mentioned how a certain passage was similar to how Monk would craft his improvisations and a student said, "I'm sorry. Could you go back to that religious figure you mentioned? I'm not familiar with him."
> Arg.


I would not have handled this moment gracefully.


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## Kreisler jr

If I didn't forget any, I have the following 15 recordings of op.95: Busch, Budapest (1940s), Hungarian (1960s), Juilliard (1960s), Smetana (1960s), Weller, Vegh (1970s), Musikverein, Melos (1985), Petersen, Emerson, Hagen, Skampa, Artemis, Endellion. Together with a few late Beethoven this is probably the most recordings I have of any string quartet (which is mostly accidental, 10 of them are in boxes or compilations). I could not listen to all of them. I plan to listen to the Hagen and maybe Vegh or Juilliard today.

Of the ones I listened to I liked Skampa the best, then probably Artemis (but these two were the first two, so maybe the freshness was one cause). The Smetana is very beautiful and this works quite well in movements 2-4 (the 2nd is not really bleak, though) but I find the "angry" section of the first movement too mild (they are also the slowest I have in that movement with ca. 4:50 instead of 4:00-4:10, the fastest are Hagen and Emerson with sub 4 although missing the Mile world record by a few seconds). The one that made the least impression was Petersen (not much beyong "lean and mean", somewhat rough sound as well, it was one of their first recordings (1989), I think). The Emerson is fast, but true to prejudice, not emotionally as gripping as others. The Melos is a bit in between, not quite as fleet as the Emerson but quite powerful and also getting the "awkwardness" of the piece, also in the 2nd movement.


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## Merl

Whose choice is it this week, ACB? I've lost track.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Our scheduled nominator dropped out via PM, so Steve, the limelight is all yours!


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> And dont forget the HP sauce for us Northern Brits.
> 
> View attachment 160176


Northern? Been throwing it over my full English for donkey's years
Btw, look at the not very northern picture on the label!


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> Northern? Been throwing it over my full English for donkey's years
> Btw, look at the not very northern picture on the label!


Not to mention your own initials ......


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## Chilham

Houses of Parliament sauce. Heinz ruined it in 2011. Don't think I've tasted out since.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Our scheduled nominator dropped out via PM, so Steve, the limelight is all yours!


Coming later today! Start boiling the beets and cabbage...


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## Knorf

Kreisler jr said:


> The Emerson is fast, but true to prejudice, not emotionally as gripping as others.


And for me, Emerson was the _most_ "gripping" and emotionally convincing, especially their deeply probing and quite special account of the second movement, but also maximizing the impact of the pathos of the last with the explosiveness of the coda. I'd also probably say their Scherzo was the most highly characterized and impactful of those I've heard. For me the only small tick against Emerson was their tempo of the first movement-I'm just not sure it needs to be quite so fast, although to be fair they're simply and admirably following Beethoven's printed metronome marking-but they characterize the changes of affect convincingly nonetheless, with impeccable lyricism and phrasing.

A highlight for me of one of the best cycles out there!


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## StevehamNY

Happy Sunday, Comrades, and here's an offbeat quartet to start the new week:

It's *Anton Arensky's String Quartet No. 2 in A Minor, Op. 35/35a*, composed in 1895 and inscribed "To the memory of Tchaikovsky."








Earsense: String Quartet No. 2 in A Minor, Op.35/35a

I imagine that most if not all of you already know this quartet, and what makes it unique: in its original form, it is played by the unusual combination of two cellos, one viola, and one violin. But apparently the publisher had a vision one night, seeing over a hundred years into the future, to a time when the greatest musical minds in the world would meet every week to discuss string quartets (by some strange magic as they all remain home on opposite sides of the earth). And that to make doubly sure this work would be suitable for this forum, he asked Arensky to write a second version for the traditional string quartet lineup. Hence the alternative 35a.

The work is in three parts: An elegy with a theme that will recur throughout the work, a set of seven variations on a song by Tchaikovsky ("Legend"), and then a finale that includes a folk tune you'll recognize from Beethoven's 2nd Razumovky quartet.

To play this work, you need to be an ensemble with enough flexibility to field the unusual lineup, like the Nash (linked below, and I'll tell you right now this is the best album cover of the week).

OR you need to throw together a pickup team of capable soloists, as was done for the all-Arensky Spectrum Concerts Berlin, recorded live by Naxos in 2014.

OR you need to find the 35a alternative score and hope it works just as well for a traditional quartet, as was recorded by both the Ying Quartet on Sono Luminus and the Lajtha Quartet on Marco Polo.

I'm very much looking forward to your thoughts on whether the original version outshines the alternative, and of course on this work as a whole. I think this is definitely one quartet that wears its heart on its sleeve, for better or worse. If you've never heard it before (or haven't visited it in a while), I hope you enjoy it!


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> And dont forget the HP sauce for us Northern Brits.
> 
> View attachment 160176


Tamarind & ketchup? Just googled it - why not add some marmite as well?


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## Malx

Nice choice Steve - I'll be the first to admit to having heard of it but never having listened to it.

ETA - having no desire to make borscht to go with the quartet I'll make myself a nice pickled beetroot and crumbly cheese 'piece' (using one of the Scots meaning of word).


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## Allegro Con Brio

Not only have I not heard it (or heard of it), but the composer is virtually new to me as well - I think I heard one of his piano trios once a couple years ago and remember liking it but for some reason didn't explore further. Fantastic choice! BTW, why haven't more composers messed around with the orthodox SQ combination? Even the most radical modern composers we've done were at least respectful of the hallowed format.


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## Kreisler jr

Especially for modern composers writing very difficult and demanding pieces it makes a lot of sense to stick to the standard because that's where one has lots of professional ensembles. Additionally, the freedom already does exist for quintets or several other combinations.


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## Knorf

Kreisler jr said:


> Especially for modern composers writing very difficult and demanding pieces it makes a lot of sense to stick to the standard because that's where one has lots of professional ensembles. Additionally, the freedom already does exist for quintets or several other combinations.


Absolutely. It's tough enough for a living composer to get their music played as it is (few other professions involved having to compete with dead people to get a job). Going too far afield with novel instrumentation is a great way to languish in obscurity, something that already happens to far too many worthy composers.

I've encountered Arensky's music in one or two other occasions (piano trios for sure), but I don't think I've ever heard the 2nd String Quartet. Nice choice!


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## SearsPoncho

2 Cellos? David St. Hubbins , Nigel Tufnel and Derek Smalls would approve.


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## Chilham

"Take two cellos into the string quartet, Anton?"

Interesting choice.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> 2 Cellos? David St. Hubbins , Nigel Tufnel and Derek Smalls would approve.












(There's a small genius moment later in this scene when Nigel pauses in the middle of his shredding to slightly adjust one of the violin's tuning knobs.)

But all jokes about the unusual instrumentation aside, this is a VERY emotional quartet, with an absolutely killer first two minutes. I almost wish Arensky had committed to a fully dark funeral march in this movement, without trying to brighten things up in a couple of places. I'm interested to know if anyone else agrees with this.


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## Merl

Like Malx, I know of Arensky but I've never heard this piece so I'm looking forward to giving it a go. Not many recordings so I can listen to this and then finish another Beethoven quartet I started before coming over to Spain (I fly home tomorrow).


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## sbmonty

Nice choice. I own recordings of the Piano Quintet and the Trios, but haven't heard this work. 
Thanks!


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## Kreisler jr

I really detest the childish abuse of Cyrillic or Greek letters like in that cover above. In that incongruous spelling of "ARENSKY" the first letter corresponds to an L, the second is called "Ya", then follows a Greek sigma (S, it would be a C in Russian) and SKY is all Latin letters. What a mess!

I have one recording of the piece in a Brilliant Classics box "Treasures of Russian chamber music" by the Amsterdam chamber music society. It's with two celli, apparently there exists a version for the standard combination as well. It's a rather original piece although the finale seems a bit tacked on (and has a tune many will comment like Leporello - This sounds familiar!)


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## StevehamNY

Kreisler jr said:


> I have one recording of the piece in a Brilliant Classics box "Treasures of Russian chamber music" by the Amsterdam chamber music society. It's with two celli, apparently there exists a version for the standard combination as well. It's a rather original piece although the finale seems a bit tacked on (and has a tune many will comment like Leporello - This sounds familiar!)


Yes, the Amsterdams play the original Op. 35 on that set. They're another flexible ensemble who can field the unusual lineup (like the Nash, as noted in the intro post, and also the Raphael and the Camerata Tchaikovsky). Otherwise, there have been a half dozen or so other pickup teams assembled to play this original version on record.

The alternative 35a version for traditional quartet has been recorded only by the Yings and the Lajthas, to my knowledge.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Never heard of the composer before and just listened to the Nash recording on the link provided. This is totally addictive. The dark sonority is glorious, great tunes, fantastic rhythms especially in some of the variations and in the final coda. I also think that the three movements fit together very well. My chamber music guide that cares to mention Arensky (the other doesn't) says that this piece stands out among an otherwise quite bland output.

In terms of tunefulness and beauty of sound, this is definitely the double-cream variety. However, it has enough contrapuntal writing to demonstrate that the composer knew his craft beside creating great soundscapes. This is maybe the one slight weakness. These bits do sound a little bit as if he meant to do just that: demonstrate that he could write a decent fugue or develop a motif, i.e. they come off as a bit academic. Despite this tiny bit of carping, I found this a deeply satisfying listening experience. On another day I will listen to a version played by a traditional quartet to see whether the music will hold up. Looking forward to that.


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## StevehamNY

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Never heard of the composer before and just listened to the Nash recording on the link provided. This is totally addictive. The dark sonority is glorious, great tunes, fantastic rhythms especially in some of the variations and in the final coda. I also think that the three movements fit together very well. My chamber music guide that cares to mention Arensky (the other doesn't) says that this piece stands out among an otherwise quite bland output.
> 
> In terms of tunefulness and beauty of sound, this is definitely the double-cream variety. However, it has enough contrapuntal writing to demonstrate that the composer knew his craft beside creating great soundscapes. This is maybe the one slight weakness. These bits do sound a little bit as if he meant to do just that: demonstrate that he could write a decent fugue or develop a motif, i.e. they come off as a bit academic. Despite this tiny bit of carping, I found this a deeply satisfying listening experience. On another day I will listen to a version played by a traditional quartet to see whether the music will hold up. Looking forward to that.


After listening to the alternate version, I highly recommend that you come back to the original as recorded here:









Ironically, I see that you live in Berlin! It was recorded at the Philharmonie Kammermusiksaal in 2014, featuring a quartet of Russian soloists, and this is my favorite, even over the always dependable Nash. (I'm waiting to see if Merl agrees with me!)


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## BlackAdderLXX

I listened to the YouTube links last night. I really liked it. The second movement in particular was really exciting. I'm going to have to get a recording of this. I had never heard of it until now.


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## Kreisler jr

The second movement supposedly became Arensky's most popular piece and he arranged it for string orchestra as op.35a. I don't know the Tchaikovsky song that is the theme for the variations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_(Tchaikovsky)


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## StevehamNY

Kreisler jr said:


> The second movement supposedly became Arensky's most popular piece and he arranged it for string orchestra as op.35a. I don't know the Tchaikovsky song that is the theme for the variations.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_(Tchaikovsky)


I've seen Op. 35a denoted in one source as the alternative version for traditional string quartet and elsewhere as the second movement arranged for string orchestra. (I think the latter is actually correct, now that I look into it further, but it's all just a matter of numbering and doesn't affect the existence of all three pieces.)

The song is "Legend," no.5 of Tchaikovsky's 1_6 Songs for Children_, Op.54.


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## Merl

I've only had one listen up to now and that was the alternative (standard VVVC) SQ version from the Ying Quartet. Although I liked the work I was left a little cold by the Ying's technically rather matter-of-fact traversal. I'm looking forward to listening to the original as it seems an enjoyable work.


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## FastkeinBrahms

The Spectrum Concerts recording is fantastic, even better than the Nash one. They inject even more drama and passion into the dramatic parts of the first movement and the fast variations in the second. They also take a full two minutes longer to do the third, which creates a better balance between the movements. Their playing seems a bit rough around the edges at times but this recording held my attention throughout. That final movement is positively exhilarating.


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## StevehamNY

FastkeinBrahms said:


> The Spectrum Concerts recording is fantastic, even better than the Nash one. They inject even more drama and passion into the dramatic parts of the first movement and the fast variations in the second. They also take a full two minutes longer to do the third, which creates a better balance between the movements. Their playing seems a bit rough around the edges at times but this recording held my attention throughout. That final movement is positively exhilarating.


Beyond just agreeing with FB here, I want to quote the Musicweb review (where this album was the reviewer's Recording of the Year for 2014) because it calls out a technical detail I don't think I've seen before:

These performances set the new standard. There's no other way to put it. Recorded live in a single day - but without even the slightest hint of insecurity or expressive deficiency - the Spectrum Concerts Berlin players give this music every ounce of passion and care they have. This is especially true in the quartet: *listen to how the cellists, at times, completely omit vibrato, their plainer sound evocative of the Orthodox chant from which the music derives*. The trio's slow movement is a marvel of technically secure playing by the string players, even as they are asked to play extremely quietly and with great delicacy.​
This is the kind of thing I wouldn't have noticed on my own in a thousand years, or maybe I would have perceived the overall effect but without ever being able to pinpoint how this specific technique contributed to it.


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, I don't know whether to thank you or curse you for tempting me to make another purchase during the time of year when my family treats me like an ATM machine. I know Arensky's D minor(?) Piano Trio and a few other odds and ends, but not much else. This was a welcome surprise!

He begins with the somber, chorale-like opening, which provides the foundation for the entire work. I believe the rhythmic motif is equally important as the harmonic one. Interestingly enough, much of the 1st mvmt. has a German weight and gravitas. When the violin and viola eventually sing out and become more prominent, there's a dense, contrapuntal element that reminds me of Brahms, more than any Russian composer. As Steve may have alluded to in his introduction, I was kind of expecting a Russian Death and the Maiden after the 1st minute or two, but when the music took off, it sounded somewhat like Mendelssohn's 6th Quartet. Thrilling stuff. There are some beautiful lyrical moments, but he doesn't dwell on them for long. There's also an episodic quality to much of the 1st mvmt, with a few start-stop moments and changes in mood. 

I enjoyed the 2nd movement. It's a hoot! Perhaps it should have ended there, but I'll get to that later. A Theme and Variations movement might seem odd in an elegiac work, but we need to look no further than Tchaikovsky's Piano Trio, which was dedicated to the memory of Nikolai Rubinstein, to find an example where it is done very effectively, with a devastating conclusion which recalls the haunting opening of that work. Arensky does the same thing, and like the Tchaikovsky Trio, it would have made a very powerful ending to his musical elegy to Tchaikovsky. But, as you know, there is a 3rd movement.

Why did he write a 3rd movement when the work, like Tchaikovsky's previously mentioned piano trio, would have been so effective and appropriate in 2 movements, given the dedicated subject? Well, it's a great celebration of life, rather than a depressing poison pill. Why else use the Russian folk music which Beethoven incorporated in one of his lighter movements of the Razumovsky masterpieces? By the way, one of the great side effects of this music is that it makes one want to listen to Beethoven's Op. 59, #2! Good stuff, with some enjoyable polyphony and an invigorating coda to close out the work. 

I like. Oooooh, that sounds nice. Will have to listen to Beethoven's Op. 59, #2 later.


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## Allegro Con Brio

You guys beat me to it on the observation about Russian Orthodox influences! That opening is one of the most immediately striking of all the works we have done; it absolutely arrested my attention and was almost stunning in its beauty. It sounds like a solemn, sublime hymn of spiritual fervor; and the rich organ-like sound of the unique ensemble enhances this (I'm a sucker for cellos [celli?] and honestly will just go ahead and commit an act of heresy and say I like this combination better!) What I love about this work is that it is unabashedly Romantic and appealing but always in good taste and never crossing that threshold of sentimentality for me. In this characteristic and also in the mixture of prayerful slow tunes and folksy foot-stomping I hear strains of Dvorák, who hits my musical "spot" for the same reason - warmth and tunefulness delivered in a refreshing, surprising, and invigorating; never cloying or stereotyped way. I love how the first movement runs through a variety of moods and keeps them all integrated into a seamless narrative; it's the kind of thing that invites careful listening to every gesture like one is taking in all the nuances of a master orator's speech. The variations of the second movement are an equally lovely and involving ride, with each variation seemingly alternating between hymn and dance in a sort of all-encompassing continuum of both Russian music and the more universal need for musical language to embrace both body and soul.

And then there's the finale. This is such an unusual and fascinating movement. We get a strangely hesitant, tender cantilena that is shockingly twice interrupted with what sounds like a pastiche of a Baroque opera overture. What in the world is Arensky trying to do here? Admittedly the ending is incredibly exciting, leaving audiences thrilled and the triceps of bow arms throbbing. But I just don't find its novelty to be a very effective summary of those gorgeous first two movements. I'll definitely give this a couple more listens - even though I really loved the Nash Ensemble's affectionately poetic reading of the work, perhaps others make more of a meal of the finale. This is certainly one of the lovelier "obscure" picks in this thread and I must admit that it has really captured my admiration - technically it's nothing very new or innovative but the overall effect I get from it is quite unlike anything else I've heard. You hit it out of the park with this one, Steve!:tiphat:


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> This is certainly one of the lovelier "obscure" picks in this thread and I must admit that it has really captured my admiration - technically it's nothing very new or innovative but the overall effect I get from it is quite unlike anything else I've heard. You hit it out of the park with this one, Steve!:tiphat:


I agree that this quartet doesn't do anything revolutionary, and much of the material is essentially "borrowed" from elsewhere. But it just has a certain hook, doesn't it?

(And thanks, but it was Anton Arensky who swung the bat on this one! It might be, in fact, his only career home run, but he really put some wood on the ball.)


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> I agree that this quartet doesn't do anything revolutionary, and much of the material is essentially "borrowed" from elsewhere. But it just has a certain hook, doesn't it?
> 
> (And thanks, but it was Anton Arensky who swung the bat on this one! It might be, in fact, his only career home run, but he really put some wood on the ball.)


I agree, even though you hear the influence of others, there is nothing really quite like this piece.


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## Merl

What a thoroughly engaging piece this is. I just listened to the Lajtha quartet and this definitely works well in their hands. The 2nd movement reminds me a little of something one of the old 70s prog rock bands would do with a piece, constantly toying with the main theme and twisting it around. Perhaps only the finale is a tad disappointing but only slightly and its only the 2nd time I've played through the whole piece so it has plenty of time to grow on me. I do love that 1st minute and a half of the 1st movement, though. Very Russian and addictive. The second movement's constantly shifting moods is really entertaining too. I'm looking forward to hearing the remain recordings of this.


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## sbmonty

Just love the Spectrum Concerts Berlin recording. The Trio No. 1 is very nice as well. Really nice sounding recording.


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> Just love the Spectrum Concerts Berlin recording. The Trio No. 1 is very nice as well. Really nice sounding recording.


Ive listened to all the different recordings today and there's things I like about them all. The Kim / Harrell is fine but the recording is very, very close. The Spectrum Concerts Berlin is a lovely recording but the one that resonated with me a little more was the *Nash Ensemble* recording (have the Nash Ensemble ever made a poor disc?). Their control and tempi are magnificent. The rest of the Nash disc is superb too, especially the Glazunov. I think I may have to buy that one. Up to now I definitely prefer this quartet in its original form.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Ive listened to all the different recordings today and there's things I like about them all. The Kim / Harrell is fine but the recording is very, very close. The Spectrum Concerts Berlin is a lovely recording but the one that resonated with me a little more was the *Nash Ensemble* recording (have the Nash Ensemble ever made a poor disc?). Their control and tempi are magnificent. The rest of the Nash disc is superb too, especially the Glazunov. I think I may have to buy that one. Up to now I definitely prefer this quartet in its original form.


I agree 100% on the original lineup with the two cellos. It couldn't have been an easy decision for Arensky to deviate from the norm (witness his publisher's immediate insistence that he create a "standard" alternative), but I'm glad we have this in its original form - and that we have some modern ensembles flexible enough to play it this way.

I personally put the Berlin live disk a little over the Nash, but I can't argue with the Top Two! Especially with the other music on each disk.

(I actually don't recall ever hearing the Kim/Harrell recording, will have to go check that out right now.)


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, I caught that Rush reference. Now that's a deep cut! Neal Peart would approve. (Of course, it might have just been a coincidence.).

Merl: No. The Nash Ensemble have never made a poor recording that I know of. What's great is that they frequently fill gaps in one's collection, such as the complete Poulenc and Saint-Saens chamber music.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Steve, I caught that Rush reference. Now that's a deep cut! Neal Peart would approve. (Of course, it might have just been a coincidence.).


No, I think our signals have gotten crossed here, the balance distorted by internal incoherence.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> No, I think our signals have gotten crossed here, the balance distorted by internal incoherence.


All this machinery making modern music...... 

Edit: After listening to every recording I could find I found that two really stood out for me for different reasons. This is a lovely quartet so thanks to Steve for bringing this one along. It just seems to get better the more I hear it and I'm amazed it's not more commonly recorded as its a cracker. I've posted a blog review below. Great call, Steve!

Arensky String Quartet 2 review


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## Malx

I've been otherwise engaged for most of this week but thanks to a wee dose of insomnia I awoke at 3.30 this morning so on went the Grados and via streaming I listened to the Ying and Nash Ensemble recordings. I have done no comparative listening but will return to these recordings tomorrow if time permits.
I can add little to what has been said by others upthread - I do prefer the unusual combo of two cellos, viola and violin and I feel the recording the Nash Ensemble enjoy adds a lair of warmth which compliments the instrumental combination beautifully. The occasional minor aural intrusions from the players (downside of 'phones in the dead of the night) do not detract from a very enjoyable performance.
As I stated earlier I was aware of the piece but had never heard it - definitely my loss as this is a very interesting piece which held my attention from the word go.
Nice one Steve.

Merl - where did you manage to hear the Raphael recording, being on Hyperion I am presuming its not available to stream - or am I wrong again...


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Merl - where did you manage to hear the Raphael recording, being on Hyperion I am presuming its not available to stream - or am I wrong again...


If I told you I'd have to kill you.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday and, though it's been a busy week, I've 'made time' to churn out this:_

This quartet seems to speak well enough for itself to make anything I might say about it redundant. It clearly had to be a minor key. And it had to be Russian, because Tchaikovsky was nothing else. And there had to be two cellos, to mimic the mournful liturgy that groaned through all those cold, dark, Russian ages.

And that was all fine by Arensky. He was very much a son of the mighty _koochka_, having been a student of Rimsky-Korsakov, in the brief period of time when Rimsky liked him, and later a favourite, if not a colleague, of Balakirev. And the _koochka_, a movement driven more by bluff than magic, was determinedly nationalistic. The reasons for that might have been political, but I suspect it was more a consequence of giving a bunch of near-amateurs, including naval and military officers, professorships in music with no recourse to Russian textbooks. The nearest thing they had to an authoritative source was Tchaikovsky.

In 1894, the 33-year old Arensky was on the brink of retirement, having spent the thirteen years since graduation more-or-less diligently working in the two jobs he ever had. His first was as a professor of music at the conservatory in Moscow, but now he was directing the Court Chapel in St. Petersburg, in charge of the Imperial Choir. That job had come by way of Balakirev, who had apparently given way to his preferred junior. Though as Balakirev, by some accounts, continued as Director until 1894 as well, it's not entirely clear what Arensky's role was. All we know is that, in 1895, Arensky retired, possibly on purpose, though (though his successor, Count Alexander Sheremetev might have exerted some influence) and, being listed as "some privy-commission functionary in the Ministry of the Court", was entitled to a remarkable pension of six thousand roubles a year.

Whether this came about by way of cunning plan or administrative blunder isn't clear. At a time when meetings where measured in bottles rather than glasses or hours, almost anything is possible. But Balakirev, like Tchaikovsky, could hold his drink, so my money's on some sort of happy fraud, of which Arensky was a beneficiary partly by the accident of birth that left him both male and orthodox (Balakirev was, even at the time, notoriously anti-semitic and misogynist).

Either way, in 1894, Arensky's at the Court Chapel, and Tchaikovsky is dead, so here's a string quartet. Why a string quartet, I'm not sure. It clearly refers to Tchaikovsky's third, which is undoubtedly a string quartet, and a dedicated memorial to a departed musical friend, so perhaps that's all the reason needed. We know he had a number of string players to hand, as Balakirev's reforms of the Choir (assisted by Rimsky a decade earlier), included bringing in trained instrumentalists. Previously the fiddles and pianos of the Chapel had been worked by choral leftovers deemed too illiterate or talentless to sing, with results that neither Balakirev nor Rimsky much cared for (though I suspect it'd be right up Kagel's alley).

Anyhow, as others have noted, he's done something remarkable here. Although, to some extent, it's all a bit predictable, given the inspiration for it, the detailing is wonderful, especially in the variations, and though the it might seem over-long, with some of the repetitions a bit gratuitous, that seems to affect some performances more than others.

On which note, I'm reminded of the YouTube rendition with Yo-yo Ma, which was interesting in a few, possibly irrelevant, ways. Chiefly, for me, a section at the end, a discussion where Ma revealed that he 'avoided stress' by playing from the full score, rather than a part. Obviously, it's an unusual situation - a temporary member of a temporary quartet isn't going to be too familiar with the piece, or have much rehearsal time - but I wonder if it's that unusual, given how many quartets aren't full-time ensembles, and don't, presumably, tour with the same repertoire for months at a time.

But there we are. I wasn't familiar with Arensky and, to be honest, I'm not sure I know much more now. He surely learnt from his forebears, but he's also, musically, much of a piece with them, and I suspect the reason he's been overshadowed is the same as has kept Lyadov and Taneyev from becoming household names. Internationally, Rachmaninov would steal everyone's thunder, at least till Stravinsky blew it all apart, leaving even the dutiful of pre-revolutionary composers stranded between tides, including Arensky, who wouldn't live to see the other shore.

Which seems a gloomy note on which to end a piece about a gloomy piece. Every cloud has a silver lining though, and it's cheering to reflect that composers of today needn't live in fear of their productivity being diminished by a heftily-pensioned sinecure. If only the same could be said of tuberculosis.


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## Enthusiast

The Arensky is a lovely work which I knew only slightly before this week. I had it on the Raphael CD, which I had bought for its exceptional Tchaikovsky Sextet, and knew I liked it without knowing much more than that. It belongs in my mind with the rich tunefulness of a number of Russian chamber pieces - like Tchaikovsky's piano trio, Rachmaninov's cello sonata and so on - a very special grouping of masterpieces for me. As well as the Raphael recording I have also listened to the Amsterdam Chamber Music Society recording, a recording that is more forthright than the Raphael and can make the Raphael sound just a little austere, this week. Lovely.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Would also add Shosty's cello sonata and 2nd piano trio and maybe even Schnittke's piano quintet to that venerable grouping of emotionally rich Russian chamber works. I'm sometimes fairly lukewarm on Russian composers that others tend to enjoy more than me (i.e. Tchaikovsky, Scriabin, Glazunov) but this choice hit my musical sweet spot right in the feels. I may still comment some more once I grab more time to take in another recording or two.

But for now, just reminding *FastkeinBrahms* of their impending choice...

Current schedule:
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Enthusiast

^ Yes but Shostokovich was the next generation with a bleakness that could be quite intense often replacing the rich melody of his forebears. I think the Schnittke piece is quite a jump from there!


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## Kreisler jr

I only heard the Amsterdam ensemble on Brilliant (orig. Vanguard) but it seems good enough for me. It certainly is a very original piece. I think the only other pieces by Arensky I have heard are the two trios; I only remember (and also listened to it as it's on the same disc) the more famous in d minor. It's a fluent and melodic piece but IMO more conventional than the a minor quartet.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> The Arensky is a lovely work which I knew only slightly before this week. I had it on the Raphael CD, which I had bought for its exceptional Tchaikovsky Sextet, and knew I liked it without knowing much more than that. It belongs in my mind with the rich tunefulness of a number of Russian chamber pieces - like Tchaikovsky's piano trio, Rachmaninov's cello sonata and so on - a very special grouping of masterpieces for me. As well as the Raphael recording I have also listened to the Amsterdam Chamber Music Society recording, a recording that is more forthright than the Raphael and can make the Raphael sound just a little austere, this week. Lovely.


I'm just listening to the Amsterdam now. Couldn't get to hear it when I did my round up. I'll add it into the list later.


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## Kreisler jr

No, you had the Amsterdam, I believe. It's Rosenthal, Maurer etc., originally Vanguard, now Brilliant (with a bunch of other recordings they did 10 years later, apparently directly for Brilliant).


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## Merl

^ Thanks Kreisler, you saved me playing through it all again with the feeling in the back of my mind that I'd already heard it. I was only a few minutes in when you posted that (I stopped it to eat). :tiphat:


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## Kreisler jr

If not for your list, I would not have realized that this recording was actually ever issued before that Brilliant box. Because interestingly that ensemble (apparently a larger group/pool with personnel for different smaller ensembles) recorded some other stuff 10 or 12 years later directly for Brilliant, such as Catoire, also in that Russian chamber box.

What about the next quartet? Shouldn't we get an announcement today or tomorrow?


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> If not for your list, I would not have realized that this recording was actually ever issued before that Brilliant box. Because interestingly that ensemble (apparently a larger group/pool with personnel for different smaller ensembles) recorded some other stuff 10 or 12 years later directly for Brilliant, such as Catoire, also in that Russian chamber box.
> 
> What about the next quartet? Shouldn't we get an announcement today or tomorrow?


I think FKB is in the chair for this next one.


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## Carmina Banana

I haven’t had a lot of time this week for listening but I dipped into the Arensky and found it to be a very satisfying listen. It fits with the cold, gloomy, overcast weather here (especially the version with two cellos). 
I think a couple people mentioned hearing hints of Dvorak coming through and I concur. I also think it is not that far in style from Tchaikovsky, himself.
I don’t know much about the composer, but I sense that Arensky was probably feeling the pressure, begun earlier in the century, to create music with an abundance of national pride, but also wanted to show off his compositional chops. In this quartet, he does a great job of being a “Russian composer,” paying tribute to Tchaikovsky, and creating an original work with great skill.
The variations by themselves work really well. I almost enjoy hearing that played by a string orchestra more than I do hearing the quartet. I guess there is just an elegance to that structure whereas the quartet is a little all over the place.
P.S. Listening to the variations just now with string orchestra, I realize that there is a bit of the theme that is similar to a lick in the Dvorak serenade for strings. So maybe it was a Tchaikovsky/Dvorak link that I heard?


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> I think FKB is in the chair for this next one.


Yes, I will nominate one on Sunday.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Yes, I will nominate one on Sunday.


Oh, you tease, FKB! :devil:


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## StevehamNY

In case you need something to watch while waiting for the next selection...

"What Not to Do in a String Quartet"


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## Allegro Con Brio

BTW I had time to sneak in a sampling of the recording of the Arensky with Lynn Harrell on first cello (forgot the other participants) and would have to give the slight edge to them over the nonetheless superb Nash. The Nash are almost too lyrical and lovely in the first two movements while the latter give it a bit more bite and windswept rawness. Their finale also seems more substantial and logical rather than a mere virtuosic display.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I am pleased to nominate the following for this week:

Krzysztof Penderecki: 

III Kwartet smyczkowy Kartki z nienapisanego dziennika
String Quartet No. 3 Leaves of an Unwritten Diary

This quartet was first performed in 2008. The recording that prompted me to select it for this week is the atma quartet's (for some reason, I cannot find the right key for the correct Polish "a"), a young group of very accomplished musicians who published it on their debut CD that came out on label called "accord" in 2019. Other recordings I have bought in the meantime are by the Royal String Quartet on Hyperion, the Tippett Quartet on Naxos and the Silesian Quartet on Chandos.

As with my previous nomination (Fanny Hensel), I will refrain at this point from making comments on the piece. One of my greatest pleasures in listening to music is to discover something new without being directed in my listening. When other participants suggest a piece I do not know, I always listen to the piece first - normally using the very helpful pointers to available recordings - and then read what they have to say about the music. 

Therefore, I will only contribute three simple things:

1. Obviously, I like this quartet very much.

2. This quartet works equally well on two levels: a) "Macroscopic" listening (or, rather "macrophonic"): Focussing on the emotional, sonoric and symphonic qualities and b) "Microscopic, microphonic" listening, zeroing in on the intricate fifteen sections of this cunningly constructed 18 minute masterpiece.

3. Late Penderecki is usually put in the "return to neoromanticism" box. This piece shows that boxes should be used for putting CDs in, not music or any other art.

I hope you enjoy this and I am greatly looking forward to your comments. If there is anything left to say after your reactions and insights at around Tuesday, I will be very happy to contribute some more by then.


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## Chilham

Excellent. I was recommended to listen to Penderecki's chamber music and wasn't sure where to start. I will start here!


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## Merl

I've never delved into Penderecki's chamber music and didn't know what I was expecting (20 minutes of painful silences and ghostly glissandi?  Lol) but this work surprised me. I've just been watching and listening to the Meccore Quartet in their wrought and concentrated youtube live performance and I really enjoyed it so I'm in for this week. I read one overview of this that said it was a very fragmentary piece. I didn't find that on first audition. Anyway here's the Meccore live video if you'd like to watch it.






Recordings-wise I found a few extras to FKB's list:

Penderecki Quartet
Apollon Musagete
Tippett
Molinari
Messages
Ãtma
Silesian
DAFO
Antarja* (there is a recording on YouTube of this young Polish quartet but this needs checking). Edit: I've just sent them an email to find out.

PS. Copy and paste is your friend for accents on letters, FKB.


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## Chilham

Love this. Fresh and with a restrained energy so not at all harsh or aggressive. It reminds me of something else which I can't quite place for now.

I listened to the Tippett Quartet. Doubt I'll try others as too much other music to invest in this month, but I'll revisit and also take a listen to Penderecki's other three quartets, and the string trio sometime in the week.


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## starthrower

I was lurking last week and I gave a listen to the Arensky piece but I admit my opera obsession distracted most of my attention to other music. Thanks to Steve for introducing the Arensky quartet. I plan on giving it some more listening time.

The recent Tippett Quartet recording of Pendercki's quartets and trios has been on my list to pick up. It caught my attention as soon as I noticed its release. I've been a fan of the first quartet for a number of years. It features a generous amount of pizzicato and col legno techniques. The Kohon String Quartet recording on the Vox label Ionization two disc set is my favorite performance. It's a single movement piece about seven minutes in length. But for now I'm looking forward to listening to No.3 this week which I haven't heard. Thanks!


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


> In case you need something to watch while waiting for the next selection...
> 
> "What Not to Do in a String Quartet"


Love this. The guy who keeps messing up is wearing a shirt that says, "Musician."


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have heard the sentiment that Penderecki seems to be one of the more accessible contemporary composers, but his music has largely failed to connect with me outside of the St. Luke Passion and the late 6th symphony ("Chinese Lieder"). I think a week of intense concentration might be what I need to finally crack Krzysztof (which my spell check wanted to turn into "crazy setoff").


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## Merl

Merl said:


> I've never delved into Penderecki's chamber music and didn't know what I was expecting (20 minutes of painful silences and ghostly glissandi?  Lol) but this work surprised me. I've just been watching and listening to the Meccore Quartet in their wrought and concentrated youtube live performance and I really enjoyed it so I'm in for this week. I read one overview of this that said it was a very fragmentary piece. I didn't find that on first audition. Anyway here's the Meccore live video if you'd like to watch it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recordings-wise I found a few extras to FKB's list:
> 
> Penderecki Quartet
> Apollon Musagete
> Tippett
> Molinari
> Messages
> Ãtma
> Silesian
> DAFO
> Antarja* (there is a recording on YouTube of this young Polish quartet but this needs checking). Edit: I've just sent them an email to find out.
> 
> PS. Copy and paste is your friend for accents on letters, FKB.


Btw, I got a reply from the very polite Antarja Quartet. The recording on YouTube was officially released on cd but it was a very limited run and sold out immediately. YouTube is the only place you can hear it now.


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## StevehamNY

When I'm done nominating Russian string quarters (at the current rate, that'll be in the year 2042), I'll probably switch to Polish quartets (if any are left) as I love so many of them. Of the so-called "Generation '33" composers (Kilar, Gorecki, Baird, Lutoslawski, and Penderecki, all born around 1933), Penderecki's third is probably my favorite quartet from any in that group, so thanks, FKB!

I'm revisiting this quartet as played by the Silesians tonight, an essential group if you want to hear more modern Polish quartets by the likes of Lason, Panufnik, and Krzanowski (the New Romantic "Generation '51") and also the amazing Zbigniew Bargielski. (Who, if you haven't heard him yet, will Melt. Your. Face. Off. But in a good way.) 

But as for Penderecki, I'm very much looking forward to Burbage's breakdown later this week, along with any other insights into why this third quartet (written in 2008) sounds so different from his more well-known first and second, written decades earlier (1960 and 1968). That's a hell of a 40+ year gap and naturally any artist will keep evolving, but in Penderecki's case his exact words were that he was "'saved from the avant-garde snare of formalism by a return to tradition." 

I don't know how controversial it is to say things like that about the entire avant-garde movement ("this novelty, this experimentation, and formal speculation, is more destructive than constructive"). Maybe it was in the 1970's when Penderecki said it. Nowadays we probably have more serious things to worry about, like what the world will look like in the aforementioned year 2042 when I run out of Russian quartets. 

But in the meantime, thanks again not only to FKB for this quartet but to everyone here because I had a blast last week!


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## Bwv 1080

Been lurking the past few weeks, but listened to the selections

Have not listened to much later Penderecki- for me, always seemed to get pushed aside by Ligeti and Lutoslawski. Got the Silesian and Molinari recordings. Strong start and finish to the piece, and thought it very well written


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## Merl

After listening to a few recordings of this Penderecki piece I'm digging the 3-note ostinato rhythm interspersed throughout the piece. It gives the quartet something for me to hang my hat on, an anchor into this work, and that's important for me. Penderecki wisely varies the pulse slightly as the music moves along and then throws in some quirky passages (the folk tune, etc) that blend into the music and are developed, so you don't just get a host of random sounds that stand out like a fridge in a field. It almost feels Shosty-like in realisation to these ears and the beautiful section at the end wouldn't sound out of place in a Brahms quartet or in the sound world of Britten. I'm really enjoying this quartet. I wish I could discuss it in a more musical way but you get what's on the tin with me (and there's not a huge list of ingredients). The same can't be said for this lovely work.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hello people! I have not been listening to string quartets for a while...sorry! Put on the Silesian quartet since they are on Chandos. I like to think that is a sign of good quality and taste  Well, I first thought this is not so surprising music from good old Penderecki, but was suddenly struck with awe! This is awesome!!! Yes, me like


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> so you don't just get a host of random sounds that stand out like a fridge in a field.


Merl, in addition to your commentary I enjoy making mental notes of your expressions. My favorite by a long shot is "rare as rocking horse poo." That's a classic!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

...but it's so short!


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Merl, in addition to your commentary I enjoy making mental notes of your expressions. My favorite by a long shot is "*rare as rocking horse poo.*" That's a classic!


That's the polite version. :lol:


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> After listening to a few recordings of this Penderecki piece I'm digging the 3-note ostinato rhythm interspersed throughout the piece. It gives the quartet something for me to hang my hat on, an anchor into this work, and that's important for me. Penderecki wisely varies the pulse slightly as the music moves along and then throws in some quirky passages (the folk tune, etc) that blend into the music and are developed, so you don't just get a host of random sounds that stand out like a fridge in a field. It almost feels Shosty-like in realisation to these ears and the beautiful section at the end wouldn't sound out of place in a Brahms quartet or in the sound world of Britten. I'm really enjoying this quartet. I wish I could discuss it in a more musical way but you get what's on the tin with me (and there's not a huge list of ingredients). The same can't be said for this lovely work.


I am so with you on the ostinato in this piece. Anything that rides along on this kind of pulse is already halfway to winning me over. I'm enjoying both the Britten and the Silesian recordings - but I just noticed that the Silesian came out a month ago. (So good timing, FKB!)

As for the tin you come in, is this one too on-the-nose?


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## FastkeinBrahms

I have enjoyed all your comments so far and take the "three note ostinato" commented on by Merl and Steve to say a bit about my third point in my introductory post on how wrong it is to put music or art in a "box" such as neoromanticism. Somebody astutely observed that it was Penderecki himself who is to blame here, declaring this about-turn late in his life, while taking a swipe at other, newer forms of music. Yes, you can probably categorize some bits of this quartet as "neoromantic", especially the last third (tranquillo) where he turns a melancholy sounding folk tune into a wonderfully elegiac song. However, the three note ostinato, which he picks up three times and twists and tweaks into totally crazy shapes is nothing of the kind. To me, it starts almost like a wanderers' motif (definitely not a Schubertian one, though) which turns into a lurch, then a run and at one point, a crash, interspersed with these incredibly intense high screeches of the violin (almost primeval sounding in the atma recording). By the way, I have not listened to a bad recording of this. Silesian is great, so are the other three I mentioned.

Penderecki probably also made a very bad move marketingwise with his comment. He probably lost some of his avantgarde listeners while I strongly doubt he won any from the crowd of traditional listeners for whom the world of classical music ends with Richard Strauss. I hasten to add: Nothing wrong with the crowd that does not want to venture beyond Strauss!


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## Bwv 1080

The ostinato thing shows up quite a bit in his later works - the second violin concerto or second cello concerto for example, but nothing that comes afterward (which seems to be a lot of chromatic sequences) is as cool as the intro so I lose interest, still tend to prefer the earlier more textural music

This is probably my favorite work of his


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## Allegro Con Brio

Someone wrote a 96-page thesis on this quartet! If you're into the technical side of things or just for some info about the composer's background, objectives, and influences it's great for at least a skim: https://open.bu.edu/ds2/stream/?#/documents/367199/page/41


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## FastkeinBrahms

Bwv 1080 said:


> The ostinato thing shows up quite a bit in his later works - the second violin concerto or second cello concerto for example, but nothing that comes afterward (which seems to be a lot of chromatic sequences) is as cool as the intro so I lose interest, still tend to prefer the earlier more textural music
> 
> This is probably my favorite work of his


Sounds great, which of the pieces on the cover is it, Threnody?" Such a great orchestrator, too.


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## Bwv 1080

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Sounds great, which of the pieces on the cover is it, Threnody?" Such a great orchestrator, too.


Partita, although the Threnody is a very famous piece


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## SearsPoncho

FKB: I enjoyed this one. Like BWV 1080, I've listened to a lot of Lutoslawski and Ligeti, but little Penderecki. I got turned on to L and L early in my classical music journey and, back in the day, I bought every recording I could get my hands on because recordings of those two composers were very hard to find at your average record/cd store.

So! Penderecki's 3rd String Quartet. I decided to take your advice and not read anything about this music. Hard to absorb all of that in one listen, and I'm sure that, by week's end, I will disagree with what I'm about to write. I decided to listen to the Meccore Quartet's performance in the Youtube video provided by Merl. Here are some semi-random thoughts:

He must have had a good friend who was a viola player. Nice to see the viola get a good deal of love.

It almost seemed like a summation of 20th century music. Almost. Not really. I suppose most string quartet composers of the late 20th Century can't help but sound like Bartok, Shostakovich, or Schoenberg/Berg, unless they're full-blown avante-garde or really develop a unique style, like Barber, which doesn't necessarily sound like music of its time.

Once it got going with the ostinato and rhythmic attack, I thought it might just break out into a Rite of Spring for string quartet. Not quite, as lyricism plays a big role in this one. There's also some Bartok-like folksy dance music later on. At around 7:40 of the Meccore Quartet's video, it gets Shostakovich as hell (after the viola mini-cadenza).

This sounds like music with a clear narrative and a protagonist. A hero. A hero's life...oops, that's a different composer. But it does sound like a hero going through a series of adventures, tribulations, etc. I don't know if he has a Sancho Panza, or if things end well, in light of the ending of the quartet. Perhaps autobiographical. There's a lyrical theme/motif throughout the work which, I imagine, represents our protagonist. I will resist the temptation to label the work, but it sure isn't very far removed from romanticism, IMO. Sorry for being so simplistic.

Don't know how bizarre these comments might seem, but I decided to just post my visceral reaction. I will now try to read whatever I can find about this music. I'm sure I was dead wrong on all counts, but that's cool. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, eh?

(Oh, *Steve*! I must look up the composer you said would melt my face. Any suggestions for what piece I should hear?)


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## FastkeinBrahms

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Someone wrote a 96-page thesis on this quartet! If you're into the technical side of things or just for some info about the composer's background, objectives, and influences it's great for at least a skim: https://open.bu.edu/ds2/stream/?#/documents/367199/page/41


Just a quick thought after glancing through a part of this paper and SearsPoncho's observation of a journey: The author remarks on how little connected the third third tranquillo seems to be to the preceding sections. Could it be that the last section symbolizes P's return to earlier forms of music whereas the first ones stand for earlier stages? In any case, there is a progression there, despite the episodic character.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> (Oh, *Steve*! I must look up the composer you said would melt my face. Any suggestions for what piece I should hear?)


It's Penderecki's week, but I don't think he'd mind* me responding to SP with a mention of Zbigniew Bargielski, a true compatriot (born just four years later). The works of both composers have been a yearly staple at the Warsaw Autumn festival, although obviously Penderecki is much more well known internationally.

I love all of Bargielski's string quartets, none more than his first. Also a piece called "A Night of Farewells," which is scored for string quartet and... (wait for it...) an accordion. Sounds dreadful on paper, right? But WOW.

*I say this with all respect, as I know Mr. Penderecki just passed away last year.


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## Carmina Banana

My quick take: I love this piece and see myself listening to it a lot in the future. I connected with it emotionally right away. It isn’t one of those pieces that make you scratch your head and wonder what the composer is getting at: hmm is he saying that the music can only exist if we separate the meaning and taxonomy of the sound from the sound itself? It’s music that goes right into your bloodstream and makes you feel things. 
The suggestion from FKB that we should avoid pigeonholing is very good. Inevitable comparisons are always made, but I”m trying to start out hearing this as just…music. My next post will probably be, you know what this reminds me of?….
Somewhere in my closet is a signed recording of recording of the composer’s 1st violin concerto with Isaac Stern. I remember hearing him play that piece in Minneapolis in the 70s. I was pretty young at that time, but I remember feeling the importance of the event. I remember it as the world premiere but maybe it was only the US premiere. I seem to remember a controversy about this new style: how dare you write music we can understand!


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## FastkeinBrahms

Finally, the Hyperion disc with the Royal String Quartet, which had got stuck in the mail, arrived and I just listened to it. They are an all-Polish group, so why they called themselves that escapes me. Never mind: This is the most intense, at times ferocious reading, totally captivating. It sounds incredibly idiomatic, very enjoyable.


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## Merl

I've listened to all recordings at least twice (some more)
My thoughts on these are in the link below.

Penderecki String Quartet 3 review


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## Chilham

Merl said:


> I've listened to all recordings at least twice (some more)
> My thoughts on these are in the link below.
> 
> Penderecki String Quartet 3 review


Yay! Pleased I chose the Tippetts.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I can only offer brief thoughts this week due to very limited listening time and it doesn't look like I'll be able to do the recording-comparison thing for this exercise going forward, but I just wanted to say that I really, really enjoyed this quartet. As always, writing about music is such a difficult thing because it is never a substitute for what one actually experiences (although Burbage, Merl, Josquin13, Carmina Banana, and the other contributors to this thread never fail to amaze me at their skill in communicating such thoughts) but the by turns lyrical, aggressive, tragic, and hopeful mood of the piece captures my heart. Penderecki's stylistic evolution is up there with Stravinsky in terms of sheer diversity throughout his life, and as I hoped this has opened the door for me to appreciate his music. Much of it reminded me of Shosty's 12-14th quartets, three of my all time favorite works in the genre which are full of overwhelming darkness, sardonic wit, and brilliant explorations of sound combinations. The persistent ostinato is consistently reworked into different sonorities so that it never becomes tiring. Wonderful stuff and IMO a real gem of music from the 2000s so far. 

Oh, and if you're looking for something to play in front of your house to set the mood for trick-or-treaters this Halloween, put on Penderecki's 2nd quartet from 40 years earlier. Just trust me on this one.


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## Malx

Another super choice - the standard of selections never seems to falter.

I am coming late to the party on this one - nothing I can say will add much to the already insightful comments posted perviously. I have the Royal Quartet on disc and have streamed a couple of the others - I always thought this quartet to be a great surprise after the short, oh so easy to digest tunefullness of the first two quartets (  ). 
To paraphrase Merl 'the ostinato gives me a hook to hang my hat on' - indeed it does, it gives the work a centre of balance. The music at times wanders off but returns to the balancing point. Relativey easy listening as much of later Penderecki can be, he may have upset some of his early devotees but I can see the worth in both the earlier and later works. 

So in summation a modern work that can be played without fear of frightening the horses - lovely.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Penderecki's stylistic evolution is up there with Stravinsky...


Except for lacking comparable inspiration and stylistically going backwards.

Penderecki started wildly imaginative and expressive, and become more and more conservative and frankly dull and derivative.

Stravinsky started slightly derivative (of Debussy and Rimsky-Korsakov, who were at least elder contemporaries), and, even in his middle period when he consciously drew on Baroque and Classical sources, his powerful imagination and musical personality ensured his music never sounded derivative or stale. And his late music is some of his riskiest and most freely imaginative of all.

This one is a dud for me; despite a few engaging moments, it sounds mostly like warmed-over Shostakovich.

I'll give it one more go, but am not expecting to find anything new. (Reporting later: and I didn't.)

To be clear: I do like some of Penderecki's "non avant-garde" music. For example, I like the Symphony No. 3. But I actually find most of the symphonies very dreary business indeed, just like this.


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## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> So in summation a modern work that can be played without fear of frightening the horses - lovely.












(Like I could resist this line?)


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> (Like I could resist this line?)


A classic, btw. Knorf, which horse, I mean which recording did you listen to?


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## Burbage

_As it's Friday, it's time for me to nail my take to the thread, for what it's worth. If warning is needed, there may be digressions in it._

The helpful Amanda Wang* tells us that, at the time he wrote this, Penderecki had moved on from his _avant garde_ phase to his "synthesis period", which seems a much better way of putting it than "neoclassical", though, as a label, it's equally unhelpful. What I think she means is that Penderecki was doing what any artists would do: drawing together a bunch of techniques, theories, preferences, experiences and feelings, and putting them into a sensible form.

Some of those elements may seem purely personal, but they rarely are, or they'd be no point communicating them. The most personal works, even those never meant to reach an audience, work because we can relate to them. We may not have experienced the same triumphs and tragedies, but we've all had triumphs and tragedies, and the corpus of shared artistic conventions allow us to consider them without having to talk about them. Which, parenthetically, suggests that the _avant-garde_ must always be, where it abandons those conventions, a little meaningless, until the point at which it's _avant-garde_ no longer. That doesn't, for clarity, render it purposeless, as boundaries need constant testing if we're to stay alive. There are parallels, perhaps, in troupes of 'lesser' apes, where the brave are sent ahead in search of new fruit, and nervous chatterers assigned to the rear, where they'll make helpful noises if a jaguar tries to eat them. Both are essential to the health of the group, but it's those in the middle that tend to survive. Those who've learnt neither to push their luck nor make too much of a fuss.

Whether "synthetic" or "neoclassical" is preferred, they're both better than "backward", even though that's not exactly wrong, either. For there are retrospective elements, structures or gestures that borrow from previous works. That, however, is surely as inescapable in music as in architecture, and it's surely the proportions that matter than the philosophy of it. There's a very long line of composers who've explicitly written (or are still writing) works "in the old style", though none of them could be mistaken for older works and most clearly carry the voice of their contemporary creator. Even the most experimental composers must build, even in the process of trying to reject it, all that's gone before. As Haydn knew well, you can only defy an expectation by working with it, especially when writing for as fusty an ensemble as a string quartet, however many electrical gizmos and supernumerary sopranos they're lumbered with. As for the listener, it makes no difference if a work is written in conventional notation or scribbled in magical symbols.

But here we are, back in 2008, where the feted and acclaimed Penderecki has accepted a commission, long after he might have retired, possibly with an eye to the gas bill, but probably because he wanted something to do. The commission has come to Krakow from unimaginably-distant Shanghai, which might once have seemed remarkable but, in 2008, may as well have been an email shot across an American campus from one agent to another. Now that the magic is everywhere, there's sadly little room for romance. Pharmacists, for example, for all their white-coated pantomime and carboys full of food-colouring, know as well as we do that the only alchemy they're guilty of is marketing; the secrets of their ancient craft are now available online and their potent potions are less the result of careful woodland foraging than the titanic belching of hulking grey plants in low-toned parts of town.

Neither the style nor origin of the commission, however, seems to made any difference to Penderecki who, though industrious, is not industrial. He's an artist and, as such, his work (even the earlier quartets) is irreproachably personal, and he's made that clear in the title although "Leaves from an Unwritten Diary" in itself allows for a variety of interpretations, not least whose diary it might be. The most basic interpretation - a bundle of blank sheets of paper - was surely only the starting point, but that's the same for every piece, so it's hard to know if it tells us much at all. The consensus seems to be that the title, too, harks back to Smetana or Janacek, signifying an autobiographical work, at least in some respect. But, inevitably, all work has an element of that. Even the utilitarian algorithms that set insurance premiums are burdened, we're told, with the prejudices of the statisticians who mix their food.

Penderecki, according to Wang, later claimed that a composer's function is "to entertain" but, though that works, I think "to resonate" is better. As I've already hinted, if it wasn't one movement, it could easily be taken as a suite in the old style, divided with clockwork promenades, and that certainly resonated for me. And, despite its episodic nature, there's a continuity, a steadfastness of mood, perhaps, in which nothing seems gratuitous. The repetitions are never repetitive, and though the piece isn't entirely merry, it's never heavy-going. The changes, even those managed by way of dramatic pauses, are skilfully managed to maintain the flow, and the audiences interest, as if Penderecki's had found, in some far corner of his distant life, the art of the double-declutch.

* ACBs generous pointer to Dr Wang's thesis covers, as some might hope, at least everything I might have usefully written. Since then, she appears to have abandoned quartets in favour of piano trios and, intriguingly, taken up carpentry. Penderecki, as far as I know, has never written for piano trio but has planted many trees. https://open.bu.edu/handle/2144/12876


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## Enthusiast

I was somewhat relieved to read Knorf's post - I had been thinking it was just me and had not been looking forward to posting a thumbs-down. I don't have a lot of experience with Penderecki but nearly everything I have heard of his has struck me as crude ... an impression I also got from this quartet. With the quartet it may just be a matter of my current musical mood - which is for the relatively gentle and the multi-layered and for music with sensibility. The crudeness I hear in this work is sonic - so that it reminds me a little of Xenakis, except Xenakis can often greatly engage my interest whereas this work hasn't as yet.


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## Carmina Banana

I have skimmed through some of Amanda Wang's dissertation. I wish I had more time delve into it. I appreciate the background and also the analysis. My tendency would be to enjoy this piece more subliminally and less analytically, but seeing someone put it in that context is enlightening. 
Here is a thought I have been having, not based on anything the composer has said or any deep analysis of the music:
This piece owes a lot to the minimalist movement. My reason for saying that is fairly simple; when I listen to a piece by Reich and Glass, etc. a lot of the usual importance I ascribe to harmonic function is defused and I start to listen for other things. Early in the piece, I got the same feeling. This piece is stripping away a lot of the complexity we are used to from modern chamber music and is limiting itself to fairly simple elements. Of course, this would not be mistaken for the latest Phillip Glass opus, but I think there is an element of it.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just to say again how much I appreciate all your comments - including the ones that say they do not like the Penderecki. I do like it very much now, but in five years - who knows? I loved the zoological explanation by Burbage this week. I am afraid I belong to the middle group, I guess that would be the civil servant/surrender monkey- type. But we do need the avantgarde/get killed by eating new fruit-type in this group as we need the group that follows at the end, only eating the ripe seasoned product. Lachenmann, Shostakovich and Pleyel all have their rightful place here. I really do hope we can keep all this together!


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Just to say again how much I appreciate all your comments - including the ones that say they do not like the Penderecki. I do like it very much now, but in five years - who knows? I loved the zoological explanation by Burbage this week. I am afraid I belong to the middle group, I guess that would be the civil servant/surrender monkey- type. But we do need the avantgarde/get killed by eating new fruit-type in this group as we need the group that follows at the end, only eating the ripe seasoned product. Lachenmann, Shostakovich and Pleyel all have their rightful place here. I really do hope we can keep all this together!


There's room for everyone in here. No-one is gonna like every quartet posted here and, personally, I dont get offended if people dislike my choice. In fact, I'm amazed most people are so accommodating to the breadth of SQs posted here.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> There's room for everyone in here. No-one is gonna like every quartet posted here and, personally, I dont get offended if people dislike my choice. In fact, I'm amazed most people are so accommodating to the breadth of SQs posted here.


Agree.

I think we really have to thank Merl* for his efforts. As he said, no one is going to like every single string quartet, yet he listens to dozens of recordings of each week's selection, whether he likes it or not (!), to provide us with a concise, well-written summary of the strengths and weaknesses of the various recordings out there.

By the way, it looks like we really lost Henry. I haven't seen anything by him in a while. It's a shame because this week's composer is exactly the kind of composer Henry wanted us to feature more frequently. I miss his insights. Come on, Henry - don't make us show up at your window with a boom box blasting Peter Gabriel.

*Also a shout out to Mal and the others who do comparative reviews.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I think Penderecki rocks, just like Beethoven and Anthrax!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Weekly reminder - *Burbage* is up for our next choice!


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Weekly reminder - *Burbage* is up for our next choice!


Should be fun!



Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I think Penderecki rocks, just like Beethoven and Anthrax!


Is there an SQ arrangement for 'I am the Law' or 'Belly of the Beast'?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Merl said:


> Should be fun!
> 
> Is there an SQ arrangement for 'I am the Law' or 'Belly of the Beast'?






My God, there is!!! String Tribute Players-Tribute to Anthrax. Sounds kind of sampled and way too smooth...


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## StevehamNY

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> My God, there is!!! String Tribute Players-Tribute to Anthrax. Sounds kind of sampled and way too smooth...


Wait, sorry, I'm just catching up here, you're saying Anthrax is our selection for next week? Kinda surprised, but what the hell. I'm already looking forward to Burbage's Friday post!


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## Merl

Tbh, Kjetil theres SQ tributes to loads of metal bands out there (Metallica, etc) but I doubt any of them are worth listening to. I was just being sarcastic.


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## Burbage

Of all the composers of string quartets, the most influential, at least of the 20th Century, was surely Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge. Like many composers of influence, however, she only wrote one quartet and, though I have listened to it, I think it's probably best left at that. As far as I can tell, it has only been recorded once and, although that recording* is very polite, it's neither widely available nor sold under cover of dubious artwork, so wouldn't be fun for everyone.

Instead of recommending that, I thought I'd start with Penderecki as my guide. As Carmina mentioned, last week's quartet seemed to contain flashes, reminiscent or prescient, of minimalism, and it might have been neat, if not satisfying, to blunder down that dark alley in search of Glass or Reich. However, being no musicologist, I'm not sure I could convincingly argue either case.

One thing I do remember from last week's studies is that Penderecki won the three top prizes of the Second Competition for Young Composers of the League of Polish Composers by entering three different works under three different names. So this week's composer, although he can't boast quite such an impressive strike-rate, is alleged to have won _four _ prizes by entering five compositions under five different names, half a century before. Whether that's a spooky coincidence or devious influence, I couldn't, and probably shouldn't, say. But there it is, for all that.

That composer is *Gian Francesco Malipiero*, and the work I'd suggest is his *Quartet No. 1, "Rispetti e strambotti"*. A work that, perhaps inevitably, won an Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge Award.

Although it's not been as obsessively recorded as some quartets, Earsense links to three versions and Spotify seems to have five (including an arrangement for violin, flute and orchestra).

*


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## Merl

Nice choice, Burbage. I've heard some of the Malipiero quartets many years ago (I borrowed the Orpheus recording from my local library) but for some reason the quartets had little impact on me or I hardly listened to them. Whatever the reason, back then I was much more into symphonies so lesser-known SQs were hardly on my radar and I would not have prioritised them. I probably just played the 1st one or two and I do seem to recall borrowing the Tilson Thomas Mahler cycle around the same time so that would have definitely consumed my listening then. I do have some Malipiero but they're mainly concertos. Hence I'm looking forward to getting stuck into this one after I've got my car's dodgy exhaust sorted.

Recordings-wise I can only find the following (correct me if I'm wrong):

Matje
Quartetto d'Archi Di Venezia
Orpheus
Stuyvesant (1964)
Kreiner (1937)

The Venezia recordings are attributed to a few differently named Venetian Italian ensembles but at the end of the day they're all the same recording as the one officially named above. There are two recordings of the Stuyvesant quartet, one of the quartet only, from 1964, and one from 1950 with Benny Goodman playing clarinet. The 12-strong chamber group, I Solisti Italiani, also recorded the piece in the late 70s and there is a version available, arranged for flute, violin and orchestra (Parrino, Orchestra della Provincia di Catanzaro), too.


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## Kreisler jr

I am a bit surprised that I do not have the Brilliant issue with the Orpheus (partly because I have the Villa Lobos quartets on Brilliant). I either missed it or decided not being sufficiently interested. Unfortunately now both ASV and Brilliant are apparently oop. I have another Malipiero quartet (#3) on a disc with Respighi and Rota.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Great choice, I toyed with the idea to suggest a Malipiero but could not make up my mind as to which one. The only one the Quartetto Italiano did was the fourth, which did not quite make it for me. The first I do like a lot. Looking forward to this.


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## Malx

Gian Francesco Malipiero eh - I thought he was an Italian cataenaccio style defender from the 1970's.

Joking aside I know nothing about this work and as I have ably demonstrated I know very little about the composer - looking forward to streaming this one during the week.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Gian Francesco Malipiero eh - I thought he was an Italian cataenaccio style defender from the 1970's.


If he was I reckon Dunfermline could do with him to boost their leaky defence, at the moment, Malx. :lol:

Edit: btw, the Orpheus recording of the 1st quartet can be heard below on YouTube.






Edit 2: after listening to the *Venice* and *Orpheus* recordings I have a clear preference for the playong on one of them (although the other has a slightly better recorded sound).


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## Bwv 1080

Ok just downloaded the complete Quartetto di Venezia recording, and the eight quartet titles are making me hungry. The Risotto e Stromboli or Carne alla Madrileguesa both look good

Sorry bad joke 

Never heard of the composer, so looking forward to this. From the wiki page Nono and Roger Sessions were students of his


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> Nice choice, Burbage. I've heard some of the Malipiero quartets many years ago (I borrowed the Orpheus recording from my local library) but for some reason the quartets had little impact on me or I hardly listened to them. Whatever the reason, back then I was much more into symphonies so lesser-known SQs were hardly on my radar and I would not have prioritised them. I probably just played the 1st one or two and I do seem to recall borrowing the Tilson Thomas Mahler cycle around the same time so that would have definitely consumed my listening then. I do have some Malipiero but they're mainly concertos. Hence I'm looking forward to getting stuck into this one after I've got my car's dodgy exhaust sorted.
> 
> Recordings-wise I can only find the following (correct me if I'm wrong):
> 
> Matje
> Quartetto d'Archi Di Venezia
> Orpheus
> Stuyvesant (1964)
> Kreiner (1937)
> 
> The Venezia recordings are attributed to a few differently named Venetian Italian ensembles but at the end of the day they're all the same recording as the one officially named above. There are two recordings of the Stuyvesant quartet, one of the quartet only, from 1964, and one from 1950 with Benny Goodman playing clarinet. The 12-strong chamber group, I Solisti Italiani, also recorded the piece in the late 70s and there is a version available, arranged for flute, violin and orchestra (Parrino, Orchestra della Provincia di Catanzaro), too.


I have found one by a group called Mitja, I guess that one and Matje are the same? Not bad, by the way.


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## SearsPoncho

This is an interesting one. My question to the group is this: What are the qualities of Italian instrumental music? I'm not sure there is a Leonard Bernstein lecture on that one. They're best known for opera composers, and after hearing Verdi's String Quartet, I must admit that I'm glad he stuck to opera and the greatest Requiem ever composed. But what of instrumental music? Rightly or wrongly, we associate certain musical traits to Austro-German, French, Russian, Czech and Scandinavian music, among others. Once we divorce ourselves from the operas of Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini, Rossini, etc., what do we have? Part of the problem is that the names that come to mind are Scarlatti, Boccherini, Vivaldi, Respighi and Nono. That's a pretty wide range. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I state that Italy's musical identity is tethered to its opera composers. 

I listened to this week's selection and I kept asking myself the same question because I heard music which could be described as a synthesis between French (Ravel and some flourishes that reminded me of the ending to Debussy's Violin Sonata) and Russian (Stravinsky, post-Rite). I'll have to listen to it again, and I'm sure repeated listening will answer some of my questions, but I want to see what y'all think. 

An interesting piece. I look forward to hearing it again. Good choice, Burbage!


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> This is an interesting one. My question to the group would this: What are the qualities of Italian instrumental music? I'm not sure there is a Leonard Bernstein lecture on that one. They're best known for opera composers, and after hearing Verdi's String Quartet, I must admit that I'm glad he stuck to opera and the greatest Requiem ever composed. But what of instrumental music? Rightly or wrongly, we associate certain musical traits to Austro-German, French, Russian, Czech and Scandinavian music, among others. Once we divorce ourselves from the operas of Verdi, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini, Rossini, etc., what do we have? Part of the problem is that the names that come to mind are Scarlatti, Boccherini, Vivaldi, Respighi and Nono. That's a pretty wide range. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I state that Italy's musical identity is tethered to its opera composers.
> 
> I listened to this week's selection and I kept asking myself the same question because I heard music which could be described as a synthesis between French (Ravel and some flourishes that reminded me of the ending to Debussy's Violin Sonata) and Russian (Stravinsky, post-Rite). I'll have to listen to it again, and I'm sure repeated listening will answer some of my questions, but I want to see what y'all think.
> 
> An interesting piece. I look forward to hearing it again. Good choice, Burbage!


Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

With the exception of Nono possibly, Italian music is extrovert and virtuosic, sometimes to the point of being brash and flash. Lots of fireworks and catchy tunes.


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## Kreisler jr

There is a ca. 100 year gap basically in the 19th century without significant italian instrumental music. But in the baroque period almost all trends were set by Italian composers, including instrumental music: Gabrieli and Frescobaldi in the early 17th century, Corelli in the late (and I am leaving out some others), Vivaldi in the early 18th, even Sammartini and D. Scarlatti in the transition/late baroque.


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## Bwv 1080

Kreisler jr said:


> There is a ca. 100 year gap basically in the 19th century without significant italian instrumental music. But in the baroque period almost all trends were set by Italian composers, including instrumental music: Gabrieli and Frescobaldi in the early 17th century, Corelli in the late (and I am leaving out some others), Vivaldi in the early 18th, even Sammartini and D. Scarlatti in the transition/late baroque.


And vienesse classical was built on Italian galant tradition - Italy was part of the Austrian empire at the time


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## Bwv 1080

On first listen, really like the work - but I’m a sucker for the Lydian mode

Interesting that the work purports to be influenced by renaissance dances but does not really sound like Renaissance Dance music - in the 20s wonder if the composer had actually heard any, or just knew of them and tried to reimagine the sound? (if so, it’s a feature not a bug)


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## Kreisler jr

Malipiero was involved in editing Monteverdi and other early Italian Music, but I don't know about the chronology.


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## StevehamNY

Bwv 1080 said:


> On first listen, really like the work - but I'm a sucker for the Lydian mode


I understand the theoretical (downright mathematical) concept of the Lydian mode (vs. Ionian, Aeolian, and the other modes). I know about the third movement of the LVB 132 Quartet, of course (where it's right in the title, duh). And as I look it up I see other wildly varying examples of this mode, from Sonic Youth's "Bull in the Heather" to Elliott Smith's "Waltz #1" to the theme song from The Simpsons!

I know it's not magical voodoo to recognize stuff like this. (I've got a great musician friend who listens to the first few notes of a song on the radio and says, "Oh, I love playing in B flat!") But I just want to know if this is something you learn at a young age, or if there's any hope for a 60-year-old to catch up on his musical education to this degree, which most of you probably consider fairly elementary.

At the very least, I can attest that there has been so much music on this forum which I could not describe or explain in musical terms if you put a gun to my head, and yet I still love it!

The current Malipiero piece is one such instance. As I understand its conception, it's essentially a series of episodes all meant to describe life in the Renaissance. Tell me if I'm way off base on this, but if that's true then I think I can relate to it with my long-on-literary and short-on-musical critical sensibility, because it sounds to me like a musical movie of sort. Or a journey through another time and place - which I'm very glad to have taken.

(Damn, music is such a mystery to me. But that's probably okay?)


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## Bwv 1080

StevehamNY said:


> I understand the theoretical (downright mathematical) concept of the Lydian mode (vs. Ionian, Aeolian, and the other modes). I know about the third movement of the LVB 132 Quartet, of course (where it's right in the title, duh). And as I look it up I see other wildly varying examples of this mode, from Sonic Youth's "Bull in the Heather" to Elliott Smith's "Waltz #1" to the theme song from The Simpsons!
> 
> I know it's not magical voodoo to recognize stuff like this. (I've got a great musician friend who listens to the first few notes of a song on the radio and says, "Oh, I love playing in B flat!") But I just want to know if this is something you learn at a young age, or if there's any hope for a 60-year-old to catch up on his musical education to this degree, which most of you probably consider fairly elementary.
> 
> At the very least, I can attest that there has been so much music on this forum which I could not describe or explain in musical terms if you put a gun to my head, and yet I still love it!
> 
> The current Malipiero piece is one such instance. As I understand its conception, it's essentially a series of episodes all meant to describe life in the Renaissance. Tell me if I'm way off base on this, but if that's true then I think I can relate to it with my long-on-literary and short-on-musical critical sensibility, because it sounds to me like a musical movie of sort. Or a journey through another time and place - which I'm very glad to have taken.
> 
> (Damn, music is such a mystery to me. But that's probably okay?)


Sure, I can recognize it only because I noodle around with it so certain characteristics stand out - and as you note, it can sound very different given the context


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## FastkeinBrahms

The use of this technique to my ears gives the piece a very bright sonority without it sounding religious. A peculiar effect.


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## StevehamNY

Bwv 1080 said:


> Sure, I can recognize it only because I noodle around with it so certain characteristics stand out - and as you note, it can sound very different given the context


Instantly identifying keys or modes in a musical piece is as amazing to me as when my son the mechanic hears a vehicle out on the main road, a couple of miles away, and says, "Oh, I know who that is. I tuned his motor last week."


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I listened to the Quartetto Mitja recording. I liked it a lot, very open in nature in the beginning, then the texture gets a bit more complex and the quartet darkens, but nothing lasts for long in this episodic work. Quite nice sounding too this recording I think.


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## Merl

I've still to really get stuck into this week's quartet (although I have played 2 or 3 of the recordings). I'm off tomorrow afternoon so I'll catch up with them all then. The 2 I played the other day were both very good but quite different interpretations. Apparently Mr. M was quite cool with the way artists interpreted and performed his work.


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## Knorf

The Malipiero _Rispetti e Strambotti_ is really working for me. It's totally new to my listening; in fact, I'm not sure I've ever heard anything by this composer before! And I'm very much enjoying it.

It reminds me a little bit of Ravel, not in a derivative way, rather in a totally good one. Certainly the resemblance is clear in the use of expanded modal diatonic/tertian materials without conventional tonal inferences, also in eschewing Germanic formal models in terms of development and variation and broadly hinting at the sound and rhythms of Renaissance dances. There's also something in how he deploys the string instruments that reminds me of Ravel, as if the entire quartet were just one giant string instrument. It's very effective writing for the ensemble.

This quote from Ernest Ansermet about Malipiero's music seems apt: "...not thematic but 'motivic': that is to say Malipiero uses melodic motifs like everyone else...they generate other motifs, they reappear, but they do not carry the musical discourse-they are, rather, carried by it."

Fantastic! Another worthy composer to add my never-diminishing list of future music to explore.


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## StevehamNY

As much as I've enjoyed listening to this quartet this week, I've been struggling to understand how it's put together. As always I'm constrained by my lack of musical vocabulary, but I'm sensing that something very different is going on here - different in the sense that I don't think I've personally ever heard anything like it.

I found this brief description on allmusic, and if it's accurate (not always a guarantee there, I realize), it seems to have given me a little more insight:

The quartet eschews the idea of thematic development that had been central to sonata form (a critical component of string quartet outer movements since the early days of the genre). Instead, the piece is built of twenty discrete sections, or "panels," grouped into three main divisions that roughly correspond to three traditional movements. The main theme is not so much varied as it is deconstructed, to a point where it loses its identity and disappears. This happens halfway through the quartet, in a section set off from the rest of the piece by four measures of silence at each end. Here all four players set off on their own paths, talking at once with no theme, nothing in common.

The music of this quartet remains tonal, although the very free polyphony generates sharp dissonances and helps along the composer's very anti-Romantic intentions.. The music has strong dramatic impact, a sense of the modern and daring, and yet a haunting sense of the archaic.​
I don't own anyone's recording of this piece, so I don't have liner notes to refer to. But elsewhere I've read these different sections referred to as "episodes," each depicting various aspect of the Renaissance: the clergy, the peasantry, etc. If there's a helpful "roadmap" to follow while listening to this piece, I'd love to see it!

(Although I realize it may not be that programmatically literal? I don't know, it's just a fascinating piece and I feel like I may be missing something important!)


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, what do I always say? No inferiority complex allowed here. Just go wherever the music takes you.


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Steve, what do I always say? No inferiority complex allowed here. Just go wherever the music takes you.


Understood and thank you! But my questions remain:

Is this quartet as radically different in its construction as I perceive it to be?

If it's organized episodically, is there at least a rough guide somewhere to shed light on the progression?

(And as long as I'm asking questions, why didn't the Quartetto Italiano record this or any other of Malipiero's quartets aside from the fourth? To me that seems as odd as the Vegh recording only one of Bartok's quartets.)


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## FastkeinBrahms

StevehamNY said:


> Understood and thank you! But my questions remain:
> 
> Is this quartet as radically different in its construction as I perceive it to be?
> 
> If it's organized episodically, is there at least a rough guide somewhere to shed light on the progression?
> 
> (And as long as I'm asking questions, why didn't the Quartetto Italiano record this or any other of Malipiero's quartets aside from the fourth? To me that seems as odd as the Vegh recording only one of Bartok's quartets.)


I had listened to all eight quartets by Malipiero a few months ago and I liked nos. 1, 2, 3 and 7 better than the rest. As I mentioned earlier, I liked their brightness that - to me, at least - conveyed a positive, optimism-inducing energy. However, listening to all eight, I found them all a bit too much similar to each other. In that sense, this reminded me a bit of Bruckner, although that is about the only parallel between the two.


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## Kreisler jr

I have to listen some more but I am already a bit annoyed at myself that years ago when all 8 Malipiero qts. were dirt cheap on Brilliant classics I once did not succumb to the encyclopedic instinct for some reason and now they are oop or absurdly expensive.


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## Malx

Like Steve I'm unsure of how to assilimate the structure of the piece. The notion of different 'panels' is novel and something I haven't come across before, however it sounds episodic and a bit loose to me. 
To be fair I haven't given the piece a great deal of attention as I have been distracted by other things going on in life in general this week and when I am distracted I tend to listen to my comfort music - which this week has taken the form of Mahler Symphonies (don't ask)!
I will give it another couple of listens before Sunday and the next selection comes around.


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## Carmina Banana

The way the piece is structured does seem puzzling. It sounds like the composer was meandering, restlessly trying out new ideas. Someone described it as a series of character pieces loosely strung together. I don’t know if that quite describes it.
I have read somewhere about his disdain for music based on themes and other classic/romantic conventions. This coupled with his interest in early music could partly explain his unusual approach to structure.
Early dance music might include a drone (a single note or open fifth) and a soloist who, having played the tune once begins improvising freely in a certain mode. Our modern ears are used to more structure than this—at least a series of chord changes. I hear similar moments in this piece. He gets “stuck” in a harmony and all we hear for a while is improvisatory noodling around a mode, not really a thematic idea.
On the song side of the equation, I see a connection with Monteverdi, one of Malipiero’s interests, I believe. The structure in Monteverdi is less based on a series of harmonies or even a theme, but more on the text. Though there is obviously no text in the quartet, I think it has that freedom and fluidity. 

I also hear the influences that have been mentioned—Debussy, Ravel and Stravinsky, but this early music interest might explain the hard-to-pin-down structure of the piece.


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## starthrower

I loved the sound of the Orpheus Quartet playing this piece on first exposure but after a couple more listens I don't feel like it's a piece I want to return to for further listening. The opening passage is quite striking at first but becomes too familiar on repeated visits. I guess I would call him a neo renaissance / baroque influenced modernist but not in a superficial sense. But in a way that really didn't connect with modern music listeners and maybe that's why he's fairly obscure, I don't know? Looking at Malipiero's fairly large discography at Wiki makes me want to explore some of his other pieces. Particularly his later works to see how his music evolved. I also tried his first sinfonia which sounded beautiful. But again I'd have to give it a couple more listens to see if it holds my interest.

In the middle of writing this I gave a listen to his 8th quartet. I find this one a bit more appealing and I favor the shorter length. And it sounds like he had absorbed some of the influences of other composers mainly the Second Viennese School and yet his musical identity remains intact.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I always love it when people nominate composers who I haven't heard of; it opens many gateways into areas that I had either neglected or simply wasn't aware of. This particular blind spot is Italian instrumental music past the Baroque. I mean, outside of Respighi and modernists such as Nono and Berio, what quasi-big names are there that steered clear of opera? Italy lent its language to our standard musical terminology and it was perhaps the most pivotal country in developing Western musical standards - the madrigal, concerto, etc. - but the warm, lyrical, sensitive tone of its music always lent itself best to vocal-type idioms and its dominance sort of fizzled out in the 19th century. First impressions of this quartet are of strong emphases on sly rhythmic games juxtaposed with sleeker, more impressionistic portions. Yes, the structure is meandering and a bit confusing, but it may be helpful to think of it as more of a dance suite rather than a motivically connected piece. I like the archaic flavor of it - the overall mood is really unlikely anything I've heard, like Malipiero has hit upon an entirely new color in his palette. The composition bespeaks a close study of Renaissance secular music but at least for me I find it to be one of those pieces that is striking in its novelty but which quickly becomes a bit monotonous and quickly loses its appeal for extended listening. I'm not sure what's missing - maybe a more conventional sonata structure to keep me engaged? - but even though I probably wouldn't return to it I definitely want to check out more of Malipiero's music now. I love choices like this; thank you very much Burbage.

And as long as I'm here, reminding *Kjetil Heggelund* that it's his turn to pick by Sunday. Current schedule and a friendly reminder that anyone who has been "lurking" or is not currently on the list is more than welcome to be added if they so desire:

Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Merl

Like others here, I started off quite enjoying this quirky quartet, with its backward-looking touches, but as the week has progressed I've found myself less and less enthused by it. It's certainly not a bad piece but not one that I'll be revisiting for a bit. Listening to Mr. M's other quartets they are similarly a 'rag-tag fugitive fleet' but I'm not sure I'm much of a fan of those either. I don't know exactly why Ive reacted in this way but I do find the first quartet a tad contrived and flowless. I'll admit that my listening has been compromised by a blog review I'm doing for a Schubert Quartet but even so I've really not wanted to play this fairly short piece, after less than half a dozen plays, and that usually tells me all I need to know. Whatever, I'm glad I got to experience Malipiero and his quartets but I don't think they'll be on my radar for a while now.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, again, and time for this:_

It's difficult to tell exactly what Malipiero was thinking when he sat down to write a quartet. Twenty-one years before, his father had broken up with his mother and had dragged his seventeen-year-old son around Europe until the latter, unhappy and unsettled, broke up with his father, stormed back to his mother's home in Venice, and enrolled at the music school, where his teacher, a Marco Enrico Bossi who, chose to compound any sense of betrayal by disappearing to Bologna, leaving Malipiero to study as best he could by himself.

I can partly identify with some of this. A long time ago I attended a school which decided it couldn't run to the cost of a German teacher, but not till after it had scheduled the lessons. Like Malipiero, I neither railed at nor relished the apparently enforced idleness, but became my own Director of Studies. Unlike Malipiero, however, I made a lousy Director, one whose horizons began with Notable British Trials and ended with the antics of Sherlock Holmes, and my German remains reliably lousy.

Malipiero had two advantages over me. The first was that he was in Venice, surrounded by libraries heaving with the manuscripts of Monteverdi and Frescobaldi. The second was that he could understand those manuscripts. And so, perhaps naturally, he buried himself among them, diligently copying out, in modern notation, all that caught his eye.

After that, he fell back to a more regular path, studing in Bologna, after tracking down his errant teacher, then Venice again, Berlin and, finally, Paris. The fragmentary, or comprehensive, nature of his studies presumably played a large role in shaping his music, but two profound influences he mentioned in particular. One was a time spent transcribing Wagner, the other _The Rite of Spring_.

The premiere of predated this quartet by seven long years that included the bombing of Venice while Malipiero was in it. But I can't help thinking of the parallels between Stravinsky's episodic masterpiece, which fuses imagined pagan ritual with experimental modernism, and _"Rispetti e Strambotti"_ which takes the poetic forms of the Renaissance for a title and, presumably, its inspiration. In both cases, the result is a very peculiar, and particular, sound. Neither could be made by anyone else, not even Respighi whose work, though it also leans on the Renaissance, is more in the way of pastiche (in the nicest possible way). Malipiero's quartet is, despite that, not as popular a work as Stravinsky's, though that's understandable. String quartets, though the natural pinnacle of all human endeavour, don't get much of a crowd, and quartets that inspire in the audience thoughts like "eh?" and "what's this?" aren't the stuff of ticket-shifters' dreams. I can't, parenthetically, think of any quartets that have sparked riots, either. With the possible exception of Stockhausen's.

Malipiero's odd career didn't stop there, and he became an accomplished teacher in his own right, a composer of seven more quartets, forty operas, perhaps a dozen symphonies, music for real or imagined plays, a bunch of concertos and cantata and a good few works for piano, and the editor of many works by Monteverdi and Vivaldi. Though he was also happy with silence, living in a house with owls in the kitchen and a salamander on his desk, a notice on the wall urging visitors not to trust him.

That mightn't tell us very much, except he was odd and reclusive and didn't trust himself, which suggests a certain ruthless honesty. One possible reason for his comparative neglect was the bruising time he had later, managing to both toady to Mussolini and upset the fascists, an episode which, however true to himself he was being, didn't reflect well. All this suggests he he felt a bit homeless, both in life and in music. And so, like many, he constructed his own world, a fictional space of nature that spanned centuries and included the finer points of the past and the daring of the future. As much of an escapist, as it were, as any boy who spent his hours buried in detective stories, but one that made a career of it. If he had been born more recently, he might well have disappeared down one of the rabbit-holes of online gaming. But, happily for us, and him, he found something he could do, and recognition for it, on more-or-less his own terms. And, though he might not sell as many tickets as some, I suspect he slept well enough.

I've made one or two attempts to second-guess the 'panels' of this tale, but I get lost in _Till Eulenspiegel_, so I didn't hold out much hope. Instead, I've enjoyed the spectacle of it, and the thought of Malipiero, at the happy age of 38, rolling up his sleeves and having the best of fun, pulling together exactly the strands that interested him to weave a glittering tapestry that, even if it made little sense to anyone else, was as new and peculiar and unique and worth telling as any murder-mystery even if, like many such stories, it doesn't entirely reward repetition.


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## FastkeinBrahms

One thought not relating to the music: I just love the titles. "Rispetti e strambotti", "Stornelli e ballate", "Cantari alla madrigalesca", "Dei caprici", "L'arca di Noe" - these words just make me drool, they are the musical equivalent to some of my food favorites "linguini alle vongole", "pasta alla puttanesca" and " un arco baleno d'antipasti".


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## Carmina Banana

Good to read your post, as always, Burbage. 

One thought that has been bouncing around in my mind:
I wonder how much this piece is due to an interest in music history and how much is a sort of continuation of the 19th century’s interest in exoticism. 
Composers of the 19th century were fascinated by the exotic locales (the “Orient,” etc.) and a distant historical era (an interest of the early 20th century) seems to be attractive for the same reasons. The Rite of Spring, in addition to being a creative enterprise, was based on actual research by Stravinsky’s designer. Similarly, Malipiero was letting his imagination go wild while drawing on historical knowledge as well.

As the twentieth century continued there appears to have been less tolerance for historical liberties. As an example, Poulenc’s Suite Francaise of 1935 has Poulenc’s style but also contains as much history as imagination.


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## HenryPenfold

FastkeinBrahms said:


> One thought not relating to the music: I just love the titles. "Rispetti e strambotti", "Stornelli e ballate", "Cantari alla madrigalesca", "Dei caprici", "L'arca di Noe" - these words just make me drool, they are the musical equivalent to some of my food favorites "linguini alle vongole", "pasta alla puttanesca" and " un arco baleno d'antipasti".


But gnocchi simply doesn't scan .......


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## FastkeinBrahms

HenryPenfold said:


> But gnocchi simply doesn't scan .......


I can imagine a Gnocchi alla Sorrentina quartet


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## SearsPoncho

This is timely because we're eating Italian tonight and you guys are making me hungry!


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## StevehamNY

Burbage,

Triple thanks this week: for the selection of this unique quartet, for your always entertaining and enlightening Friday piece, and finally for making me feel even more at home this week with your references to detective stories and murder mysteries!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I've been trying to gather some nice info on my choice, which is string quartet no. 2 by Fartein Valen. There are 2 recordings I know of, both Norwegian ensembles, Hansakvartetten & the Oslo quartet. Here are the notes to Hansa's Valen recording: https://fdocuments.in/reader/full/fartein-valen-string-quartets-2l-the-string-quartet-valen-had-with-him-on
I always feel proud when I think of Valen! I look on him as a loner and misunderstood genius from a small, unimportant country of fishermen and potato farmers. I will read my book "Migratory bird" about the composer.


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## Merl

Never heard of this one, Kjetil. Btw, am I allowed to giggle like a 6 year old at the name 'Fartein'? :lol:


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Wowie! Never thought of Fartein as funny, but I understand  He was Norways first modernist and inventor of atonal counterpoint. Happy to introduce FARTein to you all!


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## Enthusiast

Malipiero was a new name to me. I am not sure I have much of value to add on it. I listened to the Orpheus recording a few times during the week but am not sure that my take on it changed over that period. What I heard the first time was very clearly (and visually) little painted scenes from an earlier time - some character and detail but no movement - presented with in fresh, airy and attractive music. And that's what I am still hearing (even after reading the comments and descriptions of others - not that I am disagreeing with those). Attractive music but what is memorable is the overall feel of the piece rather than any development or events. Like others I am grateful to be introduced to a new name.


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## Enthusiast

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I've been trying to gather some nice info on my choice, which is string quartet no. 2 by Fartein Valen. There are 2 recordings I know of, both Norwegian ensembles, Hansakvartetten & the Oslo quartet. Here are the notes to Hansa's Valen recording: https://fdocuments.in/reader/full/fartein-valen-string-quartets-2l-the-string-quartet-valen-had-with-him-on
> I always feel proud when I think of Valen! I look on him as a loner and misunderstood genius from a small, unimportant country of fishermen and potato farmers. I will read my book "Migratory bird" about the composer.


I quite like what I have heard of Valen's music (mostly orchestral) and look forward to hearing this quartet.


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## SearsPoncho

Anyone else read this quickly with morning eyes? I did and was surprised that Van Halen wrote a string quartet! I started thinking that, yeah, if Eddie wrote some counterpoint with Eruption, it might sound interesting. Me: Opens eyes and realizes it's not Van Halen...but there are fart jokes. :lol:


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Anyone else read this quickly with morning eyes? I did and was surprised that Van Halen wrote a string quartet! I started thinking that, yeah, if Eddie wrote some counterpoint with Eruption, it might sound interesting. Me: Opens eyes and realizes it's not Van Halen...but there are fart jokes. :lol:


Haha. I made the Van Halen connection too (after the childish me had stopped sniggering). Great minds, SP (or maybe equally immature ones)?


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Haha. I made the Van Halen connection too (after the childish me had stopped sniggering). Great minds, SP (or maybe equally immature ones)?


Merl = Great Mind
SP= Immature

To further demonstrate my immaturity (it's early here in the States), I just thought of a subtitle and dedicatee. The dedicatee would be Kagel(?). The subtitle? Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Glove.

Kjetil Heggelund, sorry for going off on my immature tangent. I'll get back to the quartet.


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## HenryPenfold

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I've been trying to gather some nice info on my choice, which is string quartet no. 2 by Fartein Valen. There are 2 recordings I know of, both Norwegian ensembles, Hansakvartetten & the Oslo quartet. Here are the notes to Hansa's Valen recording: https://fdocuments.in/reader/full/f...s-2l-the-string-quartet-valen-had-with-him-on
> I always feel proud when I think of Valen! I look on him as a loner and misunderstood genius from a small, unimportant country of fishermen and potato farmers. I will read my book "Migratory bird" about the composer.


Fartein Valen's neglect is inexplicable to me.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Hansakvartetten's recording, as usual completely knowledge-free at my first listen, and I was struck by the beauty of this music.There is something very tender about it and atonality here seems such a natural, undisruptive evolution from older tonal roots. It seems obvious that Valen had absorbed the European contrapuntal tradition to the full but he does not sound burdened by it in this piece. I must say that I have a hard time really liking the New Viennese School but this New Norwegian School immediately appeals. There is nothing grim or forced about it. Beautiful performance, too.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Like FB, I also listened to Hansakvartetten's recording on my way to work today. I was also surprised at how free-flowing and harmony rich this work was, that's the beauty in it. The slow pace of the work also lends it a very nature-like quality, sorta like walking in the woods. More of a Verklärte Nacht than any other work from the IIVS. I would have liked a little bit more of a propelling force, some more development, but that may appear in future listenings.


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## Malx

Looking forward to spending some time with this one - I have Arve Tellefsen's recording of Valen's Violin Concerto which I enjoy.

First run through with the Hansakvartetten Quartet is encouraging - initially I feel it is kinda caught between two schools obviously modern in approach but also having a big nod towards tonal tunefulness (is that a word) from an earlier period.

More listens required.


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## Enthusiast

I have been listening to the Oslo Quartet recording of the Valen on Naxos. It's a lovely work. Darkly brooding but with a hint of rapture. I only wish it was longer.


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## Bwv 1080

Listening to the Oslo as well, finding it silent but deadly, the first violin part sharp enough to cut through a block of Jarlsberg, but the cello really dealt it

Ok sorry, at first listen do like the work- sounds as much influenced by Bartok as Schoenberg, nice counterpoint throughout. Will also listen to some more of Valen's work.

Apparently Glenn Gould was a fan of the composer's work


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## Bwv 1080

Here is Glenn talking about then playing Valen's piano sonata #2 on an old CBC broadcast


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## Merl

Mr. Valen isn't floating my quartet boat at the moment, even after 3 listens, but I've not given up yet. I'll give it another few days but if I've not posted by Wednesday you know I'm bowing out for a week and will leave it to those who clearly like this one.


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## StevehamNY

I've listened to this quartet three or four times now, and it's growing on me? I think? It seems to hold me at arm's length throughout, but I actually don't mind that once in a while.

On this Norwegian website, https://farteinvalen.no/english-2/ , the following claim is made and I find it to be the most interesting thing I've read today:

"He was inspired by Arnold Schönberg to find beauty behind the pretty façade of music."


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## FastkeinBrahms

Just listened to the Oslo recording. It has more drama and intensity but I like it less than the Hansakvartetten's. The latter have a gentler approach and thereby help the listener (at least, this one) better to find the "beauty behind the pretty facade" mentioned in Steve's quote.


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## Roger Knox

Bwv 1080 said:


> Here is Glenn talking about then playing Valen's piano sonata #2 on an old CBC broadcast


I like Glenn Gould's introduction. Where can you find anything as interesting now?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Unfortunately this one isn't doing it for me as I find it to be rather blunt, monochrome, and unforgiving on the ear. It seems to lack the truly distinctive qualities that IMO the great modern quartet writers possessed - Bartok's earthy folksiness, Shosty's shadowy discursive rhetoric, Schoenberg and Berg's luxurious melodicism, and the creative soundscapes of the contemporary composers. To me this just sounds like endless washes of dissonance. On the plus side the part-writing is very complex and I'm sure the counterpoint is fascinating from a musicological perspective. But all this busy-ness in the textures and harmonies left my mind with little to latch onto. As always, glad to be introduced to a new composer, and I'll have to check out Gould's rendition of the sonata as I'm interested in what eccentric 'ol Glenn found to be worthwhile repertoire outside of the mainstream.


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## Kreisler jr

I listened only once and liked the first mvmt much better than the rest as the idiom seems to fit better to the moderate tempo fugue that to the supposedly "lively" or even "light" music of the other movements.


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## Carmina Banana

I have listened to the quartet a couple of times and downloaded some piano music to see what it feels like in my fingers. 

It does have a slightly different quality from hardcore 2nd Viennesers. I can patterns and discern the composer’s intentions a little more easily. I would enjoy waking up on a bleak winter morning and staring out on the frozen landscape as I sip some bitter coffee and listen to this or other works by Fartein Valen. I would have to be in the right mood, though.

I enjoyed the Glenn Gould commentary. Not always my favorite performer, but what a great music intellectual. He was a childhood hero of mine. I haven’t finished listening to the Valen piano sonata but that is not what you would call a cheerful romp. 

It is interesting to look back on the 20th century and its various attempts to break free from tonality. I wonder if we will continue this trend in to the 21st century. Some contemporary composers have said they don’t like serialism because it is too restrictive. It is, however, hard to be on the fence about tonality. I think one has to either struggle constantly to avoid it or succumb to it.


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## Vicente

Hi there

I would like to resume listening to string quartets and share my impressions with you. Which one are you going to start listening to next week, so that I can start looking for recordings?

Regards
Vicente


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## starthrower

Vicente said:


> Hi there
> 
> I would like to resume listening to string quartets and share my impressions with you. Which one are you going to start listening to next week, so that I can start looking for recordings?
> 
> Regards
> Vicente


Check back on Sunday. That's normally the day a new work is selected.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Vicente said:


> Hi there
> 
> I would like to resume listening to string quartets and share my impressions with you. Which one are you going to start listening to next week, so that I can start looking for recordings?
> 
> Regards
> Vicente


WELCOME BACK, VICENTE!! You started what has now become the favorite thread of many members here We did change the rules slightly from your initial post - now, each Sunday, a scheduled member chooses a quartet for the week ahead. I am "in charge" of the thread and the nominators. I will go ahead and add you back to the top of the nominating order, which means you will get to choose in four weeks after our next three nominators: Enthusiast, Kreisler jr, and allaroundmusicenthusiast. Right now we are wrestling with Fartein Valen's 2nd quartet. You can go back to your edited OP to access links to discussions of all the quartets we have done as well!


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## Vicente

I will try and listen Fartein Valen's 2nd, even though I am not a big fan of atonal music. Let's see what happens.


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## Malx

Vicente said:


> I will try and listen Fartein Valen's 2nd, even though I am not a big fan of atonal music. Let's see what happens.


Welcome back .


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## Merl

Yay, welcome back, Vicente!


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## SearsPoncho

Vicente said:


> Hi there
> 
> I would like to resume listening to string quartets and share my impressions with you. Which one are you going to start listening to next week, so that I can start looking for recordings?
> 
> Regards
> Vicente


Vicente! I can't thank you enough for starting this thread, which has provided much enjoyment over the last year. Judging from your initial selection, you have great taste. Gracias!


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, and so..._

"It is known that Fartein Valen's grandfather [Fartein Olsen Valen] had been a fiddler in his youth", but destroyed his instrument when he converted [what to isn't clear] as "music, especially dance music, was at that time regarded as a snare of the devil". Times changed, though, and it seems his grandson inherited no great antipathy to music or, presumably, dancing, though it's hard to be sure given this quartet's minuet.

(Olav) Fartein Valen, the grandson with which we're concerned, is not much known outside Norway, nor much in it while he was alive. Most of his life he spent in his ancestral home, built by his parents in 1903, after they'd hauled him off, at the age of two, to catch a character-building bout of malaria while his parents attempted to snare the souls of Madagascans.

That home, and it's surroundings, now commands a view over a neat trailer park and affords "wonderful glimpses of the shipping lane" and the "mighty Siggjo", a modest sort of mountain made of allegedly interesting rhyolites. It's where he kept his cats and horses and, a few hundred yards away in the grounds of the Valen Chapel, a 20-foot timber shed, where he now keeps himself, following a post-mortem argument over whether he'd better be buried in Oslo's honorary cemetery, a spat Valen quitely sat out in a zinc-line coffin.

It's in this place, more or less, that Fartein Valen in 1903 and aged 16, decided he'd devote his life to music. And it's where his father [Arne Valen], perhaps mindful of his own father's example, decided that he wouldn't, dismissing the thought of an artistic career as yet another snare laid by a devil who, presumably miffed at their missionary zeal, was ever eager to snap at the feet of the Valen family. His father, however, whatever his skills at frustrating the devil, was less good at frustrating Death and two years later Fartein, armed with an inheritance, went to study music in Oslo, and then, in 1909 to Berlin (nearly losing his overcoat on the way) in the hope of studying under Max Bruch.

It might have worked more smoothly if he'd made an appointment as Bruch, who seems to have been responsible for a great deal, wasn't keen on the idea. But then Fartein handed him a string quartet (the 0th, I gather), on sight of which, according to Valen, he instantly changed his mind and waived the entrance examination. Whether any passengers applauded, Valen modestly doesn't say.

The Berlin school was, however, more dogmatic than Valen had hoped so, and unappreciative of his efforts which seemed a bit too "modern" for their tastes. So, after he'd finished there, he continued his studies privately, inspired by Palestrina, bored by Mahler and thrilled by Bruckner and Wagner. And then he got to hear Schoenberg's 2nd String Quartet, which convinced him that there was a future in new music. He began composing in earnest, and travelling Europe, supported by first his inheritance and then by his friends. He caught Schoenberg's 3rd Quartet in Paris, which he otherwise didn't care for, then went home, briefly, before sneaking off to a quiet hotel in Oslo to write his 1st String Quartet.

That got its premiere three years later, and was roundly panned by the critics, but by that time he'd written another. That 'second' quartet, the supposed subject of these musings, had to wait fourteen years to be performed. The critics didn't like that, either.

So far, so biographical, but it's answered some questions I had when I first listened to this. Valen's music can, like Schoenberg's, sound as new and exciting as an experimental poetry event at a suburban community centre. But, though the notes and techniques and rhythms and structures may be familiar, the links (or absence of links) between them are very different in Valen's. What Valen seems to be after is a new universe of possibilities, with what the philistines call tunelessness as a side-effect. It is, to borrow a cliche, more revolutionary than evolutionary, though, where Schoenberg might be seen as an explorer, Valen was more of a miner - he'd found his own musical seam and was happy to chip away at that until, to his own mind, it worked. I say his own mind, despite Valen insisting on having had a Visitation from Bach, but Mahler and Bruckner pulled similar stunts and nobody's paid them much heed.

As a result, Valen sounds very different from Schoenberg. Where Schoenberg reaches out, or draws in (depending on perspective), Valen slides smoothly off the ears and, despite this quartet being relatively short, I found it almost impossible to maintain my usual levels of concentration (it's a low bar, admittedly, but all I have). Unless, that is, I made an effort to follow one instrument, but that wasn't too rewarding. Bjarne Kortsten, whose 1,000 page doctoral thesis* I've merrily plundered, reckons it might be improved if an editor went through it to mark up the 'hauptstimme', in the manner of the more wilful Schoenberg, Webern and Berg, but I'm really not sure. Would it help, in this music, to be so prescriptive? And, besides, I think I prefer it when I'm not concentrating.

That, however, seems to be where the critics tend to find their beefs, and Korsten seems to have agreed with others that "when one concentrates on the melody in the treble, there's no time to think of the melody in the bass", and that it's the sort of stuff that performers need to start learning about a decade in advance. I, happily, am not a critic, though, which means I'm not even paid to concentrate.

It starts with a fugue, a single line from which others emerge and overlap, like the waves of that magnificent shipping lane. But these are not the waves of Debussy, which ebb and flow with simple, if dramatic, regularity. These are waves that interfere, that cross each other and weave an alluring, glittering, unfathomable pattern. Like the pool reflections on a Florida ceiling, they can't be followed so easily but produce a certain, distinctive mood. I'm not entirely sure that this is what Valen was hoping for, but it's what it does for me, and that may be the deliberate effect of not specifying where the hauptstimme should be. I quite like that. Not just because the interpreters are having to earn their keep, but because it's just sometimes nice not to be spun a yarn, but to be allowed to wallow in a moment, and that's what this gentle quartet does for me.

* _Go on, treat yourself. It's a hefty read, admittedly, and has been cited just twice in 56 years, but do you really want to go through the rest of your life not knowing what happened when Valen fell out of a tram? Or how his reputation was salvaged by a Norwegian dressed up as a Briton? Or what names he gave his cacti?_ https://theses.gla.ac.uk/73651/


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## Carmina Banana

"Like the pool reflections on a Florida ceiling..."

That's why I look forward to firing up my computer on Friday mornings.


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## Merl

Haha, great round-up Burb! Although I didn't like the quartet I do enjoy your Friday thoughts.


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## Enthusiast

Burbage said:


> ...............And then he got to hear Schoenberg's 2nd String Quartet, which convinced him that there was a future in new music. He began composing in earnest, and travelling Europe, supported by first his inheritance and then by his friends. He caught Schoenberg's 3rd Quartet in Paris, which he otherwise didn't care for, then went home, briefly, before sneaking off to a quiet hotel in Oslo to write his 1st String Quartet.
> 
> That got its premiere three years later, and was roundly panned by the critics, but by that time he'd written another. That 'second' quartet, the supposed subject of these musings, had to wait fourteen years to be performed. The critics didn't like that, either.
> 
> So far, so biographical, but it's answered some questions I had when I first listened to this. Valen's music can, like Schoenberg's, sound as new and exciting as an experimental poetry event at a suburban community centre. But, though the notes and techniques and rhythms and structures may be familiar, the links (or absence of links) between them are very different in Valen's. What Valen seems to be after is a new universe of possibilities, with what the philistines call tunelessness as a side-effect. It is, to borrow a cliche, more revolutionary than evolutionary, though, where Schoenberg might be seen as an explorer, Valen was more of a miner - he'd found his own musical seam and was happy to chip away at that until, to his own mind, it worked. I say his own mind, despite Valen insisting on having had a Visitation from Bach, but Mahler and Bruckner pulled similar stunts and nobody's paid them much heed.
> 
> As a result, Valen sounds very different from Schoenberg. Where Schoenberg reaches out, or draws in (depending on perspective), Valen slides smoothly off the ears and, despite this quartet being relatively short, I found it almost impossible to maintain my usual levels of concentration (it's a low bar, admittedly, but all I have). Unless, that is, I made an effort to follow one instrument, but that wasn't too rewarding. Bjarne Kortsten, whose 1,000 page doctoral thesis* I've merrily plundered, reckons it might be improved if an editor went through it to mark up the 'hauptstimme', in the manner of the more wilful Schoenberg, Webern and Berg, but I'm really not sure. Would it help, in this music, to be so prescriptive? And, besides, I think I prefer it when I'm not concentrating.
> 
> That, however, seems to be where the critics tend to find their beefs, and Korsten seems to have agreed with others that "when one concentrates on the melody in the treble, there's no time to think of the melody in the bass", and that it's the sort of stuff that performers need to start learning about a decade in advance. I, happily, am not a critic, though, which means I'm not even paid to concentrate.
> 
> It starts with a fugue, a single line from which others emerge and overlap, like the waves of that magnificent shipping lane. But these are not the waves of Debussy, which ebb and flow with simple, if dramatic, regularity. These are waves that interfere, that cross each other and weave an alluring, glittering, unfathomable pattern. Like the pool reflections on a Florida ceiling, they can't be followed so easily but produce a certain, distinctive mood. I'm not entirely sure that this is what Valen was hoping for, but it's what it does for me, and that may be the deliberate effect of not specifying where the hauptstimme should be. I quite like that. Not just because the interpreters are having to earn their keep, but because it's just sometimes nice not to be spun a yarn, but to be allowed to wallow in a moment, and that's what this gentle quartet does for me.
> 
> * _Go on, treat yourself. It's a hefty read, admittedly, and has been cited just twice in 56 years, but do you really want to go through the rest of your life not knowing what happened when Valen fell out of a tram? Or how his reputation was salvaged by a Norwegian dressed up as a Briton? Or what names he gave his cacti?_ https://theses.gla.ac.uk/73651/


Excellent and entertaining as usual, Burbage. But perhaps you are not entirely fair about its critical reception. I found this from a Gramophone review of the Hansa Quartet's recording of Valen's quartets:



> The reputation of Fartein Valen (1887-1952) lies chiefly on his polished, atonal orchestral works, including four symphonies, a masterly - if brief - Violin Concerto and tone-poems such as Le cimitière marin.





> The First's premiere (in 1932) went remarkably well for such an advanced work at the time, perhaps because its expressive profile is fairly conventional and clear-cut, the concise opening Moderato succeeded by a short but moving Adagio, whirlwind Scherzo and concluding Rondo. The Second (193031) followed on quickly but its structure of Fugue-Minuet-Finale is more elusive.


As I have said it is a work I enjoyed listening to, if not a masterpiece!


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## Knorf

I enjoyed the Fartein Valen Second Quartet, well enough to be glad I heard it and that I now know more about this composer. 

On the other hand, it hasn't exactly highly motivated me to rush out and seek more of Valen's music. The quartet reminds me a bit of the music of Hans Erich Apostel, a Schoenberg pupil, in that it comes off as a bit on the grey and dreary side. It's a grey and dreary day here in the Pacific Northwest of North America, so that's not so bad, actually. But my favorite quartets, including those by Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, all have substantially more color, rhythm, and personality. 

And yet, there's a lyricism there in the Valen Second Quartet that I find quite haunting. I don't think I'll be forgetting that.


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## Malx

Knorf said:


> I enjoyed the Fartein Valen Second Quartet, well enough to be glad I heard it and that I now know more about this composer.
> 
> On the other hand, it hasn't exactly highly motivated me to rush out and seek more of Valen's music. The quartet reminds me a bit of the music of Hans Erich Apostel, a Schoenberg pupil, in that it comes off as a bit on the grey and dreary side. It's a grey and dreary day here in the Pacific Northwest of North America, so that's not so bad, actually. But my favorite quartets, including those by Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, all have substantially more color, rhythm, and personality.
> 
> And yet, there's a lyricism there in the Valen Second Quartet that I find quite haunting. I don't think I'll be forgetting that.


I would suggest giving the Violin Concerto a try - it is the most attractive work I have heard from Valen.


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## Vicente

Well, here are my notes after listening to the work just four times.

This is definitely not my favorite string quartet, but neither can I say that I was not glad to have heard it or, rather, to have felt it. What follows is a personal opinion about the feelings this music has evoked in me, and is therefore wildly subjective.

I read the notes accompanying one of the recordings and realized that the composer wanted to reflect an experience of a starry night on the shore of a lake. In a way I tried to repeat the experience during listening and this clearly mediated me.

The first movement, fugue, reflects for me the chaos of non-harmonic notes, as a starry sky may seem, but within that there is a certain order, which to me seemed to be the succession of four mainly violin notes, a sequence that is repeated in a not very orderly way during this movement. On the other hand, the elevation of tones and volume during the first three minutes suggested to me the approach of the soul of the beholder, enjoying the natural wonder spread out before his eyes. From minute three to minute four the tones are maintained, reflecting a certain stability in contemplation.

The second movement, with somewhat more complex and, in a certain way, more rhythmic sounds, suggests to me a greater presence of the spectator's thoughts, who, enjoying the contemplation of the landscape, at the same time is immersed in the lack of order of the waves on the shore and in the excitement produced by something that being "eternal", for him is going to be an ephemeral moment.

The third movement begins with the "chaos" that leaves space for more reflective forms and that to me have suggested the strength that these moments of conjunction with nature give. The tempi are stronger and more complex, the viola and the cello take a greater role, adding a point of melancholy and almost at the end it seems that the mind wants to go towards more conventional forms.

As I say it is not my favorite quartet, but I was very happy to listen to it and as I said before, to feel it.

Regards
Vicente


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## Allegro Con Brio

A quick reminder that *Enthusiast* will be our next nominator.


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## Enthusiast

Thanks, Allegro Con Brio, and possible apologies to Vicente (but my previous nominations have all been firmly in the mainstream repertoire - Mozart and Schubert) ... I choose the *3rd Naxos Quartet of 2003 by Peter Maxwell Davies*. I think there is only one recording (but then perhaps if you name a set of pieces after a record label you perhaps can't expect other labels to be queuing up to record accounts). It was the first of the Naxos Quartets that I got to know and might be the most accessible of them. There are four movements - a march that doesn't sound too much like a March to me (unless perhaps a march from Hieronymus Bosch), an In Nomine, Four Inventions and a Hymn and a Fugue (again not one I personally can hear as a fugue). There are tunes in the piece but it is a work that sounded very dull and lacking in incident the first two times I heard it. Then it flowered for me and I haven't looked back. I hear the ghost of (late) Beethoven. I think it a masterpiece!


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## Knorf

I haven't listened to anything from Peter Maxwell Davies in awhile. Looking forward to it!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I like what I have heard of PMD's music and would classify him among the greater composers of the last half-century. His 1st and 5th symphonies are stunning masterpieces and the Strathclyde Concerti are certainly remarkable even if some them are a bit too long and meandering for my taste. I am unfamiliar with his quartets, which seem to be highly regarded. Wonderful pick!


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## Mandryka

Good choice! 


SMS s s sans sm


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

No!! I was going to nominate something by PMD in a few weeks!  Kidding aside, great choice!


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## StevehamNY

I was afraid to ask the dumb question about a "Naxos quartet" being recorded on the Naxos label, but now that I look it up I see that these quartets were specifically written for the Magginis to record on Naxos, hence the name. So now the universe makes a little more sense. 

I also see that Davies considered this entire set of quartets to be a "novel in ten chapters," which is a comparison I haven't heard before. Looking forward to diving in, thanks!

EDIT: Sorry, Enthusiast, I now see that you had already answered my Naxos/Naxos question in your first post!


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## FastkeinBrahms

A big and complex work I will enjoy listening to several times over, as there seems to be a lot to discover in it. I found the brooding, mysterious In Nomine the most immediately appealing movement but I also liked the final fugue. In the third movement I tried to identify the hymn after the four inventions. Did Maxwell Davies have a sense of humour? I seem to detect a chorus of whining old ladies singing with wobbly voices towards the end of that third movement. Maybe I am just imagining things.


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## Vicente

Enthusiast said:


> Thanks, Allegro Con Brio, and possible apologies to Vicente (but my previous nominations have all been firmly in the mainstream repertoire - Mozart and Schubert) ... I choose the *3rd Naxos Quartet of 2003 by Peter Maxwell Davies*.


No need to apologize. It is rare that I like a piece of music the first time I hear it. This avant-garde music forces me to stand in front of it like a child, who doesn't quite understand what he hears, but knows that there is something important behind those sounds. At my almost 60 years old, it is an exercise that keeps my mind young.
I have listened to the first movement and it seems to me that it is not inaccessible, I will probably depend less on the feelings that the work produces in me and more on the music itself.
I will listen to it four or five times and "punish" you with my impressions.
Regards
Vicente


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## Malx

Like all the Naxos Quartets I have tried this one will take a few more listens than the average quartet to get into. 
I have listened through twice so far and find the second movement most accessible the third is proving the thorniest for me to get my head around but like most of Max's music there will be an underlying narrative which takes time to grasp (or maybe that's just me). 
As normal I try not to read to much about what I should be listening for on initial listens but I may seek some guidance soon.
I have the disc of the first and second quartets on the shelves and I sense a minor connection to the third in some element of the sound/themes but I will not have time this week to check that out thoroughly.


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## Enthusiast

Malx said:


> Like all the Naxos Quartets I have tried this one will take a few more listens than the average quartet to get into.


Sorry! I know you are busy at the moment. But I think (hope) you will find it becomes a pleasure rather than a chore after a few spins.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> Like all the Naxos Quartets I have tried this one will take a few more listens than the average quartet to get into.
> I have listened through twice so far and find the second movement most accessible the third is proving the thorniest for me to get my head around but like most of Max's music there will be an underlying narrative which takes time to grasp (or maybe that's just me).
> As normal I try not to read to much about what I should be listening for on initial listens but I may seek some guidance soon.
> I have the disc of the first and second quartets on the shelves and I sense a minor connection to the third in some element of the sound/themes but I will not have time this week to check that out thoroughly.


Stay with it, one day you will encounter it in the right state of mind.

I like the ebb and flow of textures in the first movement.

You can certainly convince yourself that the ghost of late Beethoven is in the music, I'm not sure it's very helpful though.


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## starthrower

I watched this mini documentary last night. I was not aware that the complete cycle was created it just five years. I've just started listening to No.3 and I like the sound of it very much. But I haven't really gotten past the 1st movement. I find the writing quite fascinating and brilliant so I just want to keep listening to this before I move on to the rest.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Max has been on my top-list since I first heard his music ca. 1994. I have the whole set in my CD collection, but haven't listened to it for some years. Now when I heard it, I decided to make a remix of it! I thought the recording was a bit dry, so I want to try to add some reverb and hear how that will go...Just have to sit in my basement studio for a while  You can all hear it if you like, if I think it is good enough.


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## Mandryka

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Max has been on my top-list since I first heard his music ca. 1994. I have the whole set in my CD collection, but haven't listened to it for some years. Now when I heard it, I decided to make a remix of it! I thought the recording was a bit dry, so I want to try to add some reverb and hear how that will go...Just have to sit in my basement studio for a while  You can all hear it if you like, if I think it is good enough.


Excellent. Wonderful.


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## Malx

Enthusiast said:


> Sorry! I know you are busy at the moment. But I think (hope) you will find it becomes a pleasure rather than a chore after a few spins.


Goodness, no apology needed - a lot going on right now but I will try and find time to listen to some music and if it runs over into next week or next month so what!

I listened to the first movement again an hour ago!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

View attachment Max Fugue 3.mp3

Here is a little bit wetter fugue 
...I will take it away when I get a bad conscience soon...oh, I put on too much!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Well, it probably sounds just right the way it is! I had an interesting half-hour with the fugue trying some convolution reverb and equalizer in my Cubase. Maybe I learned something and got more familiar with the piece. Davies symphonies give me a different feeling than his string quartets and his guitar music, that I've wrestled with, feels even more different. Now I really like the 3rd quartet! Once upon a time I was thinking of choosing the 8th for this thread. "In Nomine" is a delicious piece of music! The guitar music is more noisy (when I play) and doesn't have the heavenly calmness. Going to psyche myself up to practice his sonata and "Hill Runes". I recommend finding all of Davies' symphonies on YouTube and have a glorious marathon of orchestral exaltation!


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## Knorf

From my reading about this quartet, Peter Maxwell Davies (hereafter "PMD") composed it 2003, and during the process of composing was heavily affected by the invasion of Iraq by American, British, and other allied forces. It seems to me that with the grim tone, use of novel expressive markings such as _stucchevole_ ("nauseating"), and PMD's description of the first movement as "military march of a fatuous and splintered nature," we may surmise what he thought of the Iraq War. It is a point of view I am in sympathy with. The invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a war "justified" on a narrative compost heap of falsehoods, distortions, and outright lies (lie: "everyone thought Iraq had WMDs. No, "everyone" did not), and it was a disgusting orgy of destruction and the death of innocents, and it destabilized the whole region. If there was justice in the world, there would have been multiple trials for war crimes, and not just of Saddam Hussein and his children and sundry cronies.

But whatever you think of that, or I think of that, has basically nothing to do with whether this is effective music, or not. (And of course this is not the place to debate the 2003 Iraq War.)

Inspiration gets a composer started, and to be fair is certainly an interesting topic in itself, but in the end the craft and imagination of the composer have to carry forward a wholly musical argument, fulfilling premises as established by the musical idea itself. If the music is poor, or poorly crafted, great inspiration and feelings won't save it.

For me, this is an effective piece of music. It is prompting me to explore more of these "Naxos Quartets." I haven't always warmed to PMD's symphonic output, but these quartets seem to have spurred on his creativity in way that captures and holds my attention.


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## Mandryka

Here's the big tune at the end of the second movement, I think.


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## Mandryka

Some of the he music at the end of the third movement -- presumably the hymn -- is bizarre.


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## Mandryka

Re In Nomine, NB this protest from the time of the Iraq War

View attachment 161238


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## Mandryka

Here's the end of the fugue

View attachment 161239


The words under the cello part are by Michelangelo -- While damage and shame persist it is my great fortune not to see or hear, so please do not disturb me and speak quietly.


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## starthrower

^^^
Those links aren't working.

Program notes and score.
https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/14250/Naxos-Quartet-No-3--Peter-Maxwell-Davies/


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## StevehamNY

"The intention with Naxos Quartet No. 3 was to create a work exploring the compositional potentialities of a magic square of Saturn (3 x 3) within one of Mars (5 x 5) within one of Venus (7 x 7) - all this alongside an independent square of the Moon (9 x 9), with the associated isometric disciplines, based upon the plainsong proper to the celebration of St. Cecilia on November 22nd, 'Audi filia et vide'."

My brain after reading this:










(But I am liking the quartet!)


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## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> ^^^
> Those links aren't working.
> 
> Program notes and score.
> https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/14250/Naxos-Quartet-No-3--Peter-Maxwell-Davies/


Not sure what I can do about that.


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> Not sure what I can do about that.


Maybe Art Rock or Krummhorn can assist? I sent a message.


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## Art Rock

Sorry, it's above my pay grade. If they are images (can't see from what's available), please use an external host as discussed here.


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## starthrower

Thanks, Art Rock! I've bookmarked that page for future reference.

I finally made it all the way through this huge quartet and by the end my brain felt like that collapsing silo. I didn't pick up on any of the musical threads mentioned in the notes, so that means I need to listen again!


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## Allegro Con Brio

This quartet is a musical mouthful! It is practically conceived as a symphony; perhaps only the Franck quartet rivals it in this breathtaking thematic scope among quartets we have done. Jam-packed with fascinating ideas, motifs and emotions spun into an arching narrative; it has an academic rigor and expressionistic richness that is a real standout among music of our century. I was fascinated by the textures and counterpoint of the first movement; a fiery blaze of gruffness that melts into a haunting, lyrical conclusion. In the second movement I liked the extended violin cantilena at the start, and the third movement, as Mandryka says, is just really unique and attractive, although I found the finale more perfunctory compared to the rest. Certainly a top-notch choice for the thread since it does need focused, repetitive, dedicated listening in order to really unravel. It could be argued that it fails to conceal its own art, but I think it does work as an involving experience regardless of any extramusical inspirations, which I was not aware of at the time of listening. I would love to make a journey through all these quartets some day, but my mind just isn't up for this kind of listening right now and I'll content myself with the observation that this is something special to mark down for revisiting. I wish there were more recordings (not that I found anything wrong with the Maggini's playing) because it seems like the kind of music that could be performed in radically different ways, but as others have observed I doubt there ever will be since the works are named for a record label! I have to say I'm more and more impressed with PMD with every work of his I listen to; I would go so far as to call him a genius even if I sometimes struggle to grasp where he is going and what he is doing.


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## Enthusiast

One of the many aspects of this quartet that I really like is the opening. It is one of those works that opens with a few bars that somehow do something to me. This isn't really a learned response (knowing what is coming and how much I enjoy it) as I felt it before I knew the work and it was one of the things that led me into it willingly and filled with hope!


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## Merl

I've listened to this SQ 3 times this week and although I don't mind the 2nd movement the others do absolutely nothing for me (sorry Enthusiast). However, whilst listening to this SQ on YouTube I did find a few of PMD's works that I rather like (which is amazing for me as I can't stand most of his stuff) so that's a positive.


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## FastkeinBrahms

O Burbage, where art thou? T'is Friday and are we to fosake
mental, artistic and humoristic sustenance this week? Surely, PMD would be a meaty piece to dig your teeth into? Please do give it a shot!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next choice goes to *Kreisler jr.*


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## starthrower

ACB, do you have the full list of nominees? I just like to keep track of the next time I'm up so I have something ready to go. Thanks!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here's how things are currently shaping up for the next half-year or so after Kreisler's pick this week:

allaroundmusicenthusiast
Vicente
Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1050
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast


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## Kreisler jr

I first wanted to propose a lesser known (longish) piece but we had now four or more comparably "tough", mostly modern pieces in a row, so I go with an accessible, not too long and well known piece (apologies to the person who listens to all available recordings; there would have been fewer with my other option that might turn up next time).

*Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy: Quartet op. 13 in a minor*

In spite of Mozartians (among which I count myself and probably Felix M as well) having violently disagreed, I think this is the greatest piece ever written by an 18 year old or younger and Mendelssohn's best quartet (it might be my favorite work of his, full stop). It's also one of the very few pieces before the late 19th century to take up Beethoven's late quartets as inspiration and still make something very original out of it.
There should be plenty of recordings/concerts available for those who do not have the piece on disc.

I probably will not have much time next Friday/Saturday because of house guests at that weekend, so I hope to post something more about the piece and maybe recordings midweek.


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## Burbage

_It's Saturday, so I must have missed the deadline._

Perhaps, in attempting to do this, one "chapter of a novel", any sort of justice, I thought I should listen to all the others, too, and especially the the first, which, its composer assures us, disappears up somewhere to sort-of return in the second movement of the third. So it's all taken a fair bit of time. And, entirely coincidentally, I've been unwell.

Though, if Agrippa* and Davies are to be believed, that may be no coincidence. Davies may have hoped to contain the malefic influence of Saturn and Jupiter within the square of Venus, at one remove from the lunar quadrangle that safely harbours the number of the beast. But, as he admits, he hadn't planned on the Iraq War turning up and knocking his plans awry, so we're left with a nauseating hymn, a destabilising march and the implicit wreath of a mostly silent fugue. Or, in non-musicological terms, a recipe for sea-sickness.

I may be being unfair. I am not well-versed in occult numberology, and the only mathematical thing I remember is a school report describing me as 'idle and inoffensive', which I chose to take as a win. I am, to put it mildly, hardly qualified to understand my ears, let alone believe them. And though inoffensiveness, contrary to popular belief, comes naturally to the young, it wears off quickly so that, beyond a certain time of life, it takes very little to keep a thinking man's water at boiling point and prompt him to shout his philosophy, as Shakespeare might have put it, at the traffic. If a mislaid slipper, or a typo in a letter from the council, can unleash the primordial wrath of generations, the reaction to a tendentious act of war must be truly as unfathomable as it sounds.

Though that was in the way of a post-hoc motive for Davies, who signed his contract for ten quartets a year or so before the futile millions** gathered in the nation's parks in protest, a contract that promised both money and profile-boosting publicity. You might think that a Master of the Queen's Music mightn't need much extra publicity, but it's a curiously understated role, and even Poets Laureate get more exposure, despite their limitations. So it's hard to think of any MoQM, with the exception of Elgar, that's enjoyed a household name. For all their charms, Boyce, Byrd and Bliss rarely reach the top of the playlists, and the rest, even Kramer and Cramer, have largely been forgotten.

Beyond the venal, there are other motives, too. Davies clearly wanted to write 'serious' music, music that reflected the Orcadian mood, could be built on a scaffold of magic squares, with serialish tunes intermingled with borrowings, more technical than audible, from the renaissance, the baroque and the classical, and this contract gave him both the chance and possibly the inspiration to stretch his ambition. Which, I'm sure, was all good fun, but there's a lot in this game that even a diligent listener is unlikely to be able to perceive. It's obviously intricate and familiarity does, up to a point, make it a little easier to navigate, but only in the way that memorizing landmarks helps us understand geology. Which is to say that it probably doesn't, and there's a danger - if that's the right word - that the incidental becomes the point, and the intention becomes irrelevant. Even when it's set out clearly, a cake-and-eat-it approach to time signatures or tonality might seem bold and refreshing in cold, hard print but, unleashed on the air, can sound wilful and tenuous and, arguably, subverts itself.

Nevertheless, though it demands a hefty investment, this quartet repays some of it. Familiarity with the previous quartets helps, as does a vague understanding of early musical terms and styles, but I find the liner-notes misleading, at least at first. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, and I think I'd have got to grips with it quicker if I'd ignored them. Perhaps that just because I'm prone to disappearing down unhelpful lines of inquiry, and finding things that aren't there (or, if they are, don't amount to much).

However, in the end, after a dozen or more listens to each of three quartets, a fair bit of reading and some parallel listening (to Bach and Taverner and Cowell and Bolcom and Simpson), and a bit of a memory of Malipiero, I think I know roughly where I am with this quartet and can start to admire it. Though how much of my appreciation is my own invention, or distraction, I don't know. The closing measures of the soi-disant fugue, for example, rather than conjuring the ghost of an unsmuggled baritone, summon for me the skeletons of Arnold's "Sheep"***. I doubt that was the intention.

* _Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim was, according to Wikipedia, a physician, lawyer, theologian, soldier, mathematician, apothecary and scholar. Or, in the language of our time, a grifter. He assigned magic squares to the planets in his "Three Books of Occult Philosophy", which he could promote as academic, scholarly works thanks to the happy, counter-intuitive trick that means the more the 'occult' is published, the more 'occult' it gets. It's probably best, and safest, to think of such publications as the equivalent of the penny-share tip-sheet or cryptocurrency message-board, though, in a neat inversion of history, it's today's defenders of magical scams that get to accuse their critics of heresy._

** _By way of declaring an interest, I was still as futile in 2003 as I ever was at school._

*** _Your mileage may vary, but if you'd like to check you're not listening all wrong, you can find the little woolly beggars here:_


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## Enthusiast

^ Sorry to hear you have been unwell, Burbage. Still, you have managed a good perpendicular take on the work ... a little more serious, perhaps, than most of your posts in the series.


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I first wanted to propose a lesser known (longish) piece but we had now four or more comparably "tough", mostly modern pieces in a row, so I go with an accessible, not too long and well known piece (apologies to the person who listens to all available recordings; there would have been fewer with my other option that might turn up next time).
> 
> *Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy: Quartet op. 13 in a minor*
> 
> In spite of Mozartians (among which I count myself and probably Felix M as well) having violently disagreed, I think this is the greatest piece ever written by an 18 year old or younger and Mendelssohn's best quartet (it might be my favorite work of his, full stop). It's also one of the very few pieces before the late 19th century to take up Beethoven's late quartets as inspiration and still make something very original out of it.
> There should be plenty of recordings/concerts available for those who do not have the piece on disc.
> 
> I probably will not have much time next Friday/Saturday because of house guests at that weekend, so I hope to post something more about the piece and maybe recordings midweek.


Wow, this is a mammoth one with lots of recordings (I have at least half a dozen in the cd racks and at least the same number on the HD). Think I've got my work cut out but I have some old notes when I reviewed this one years ago to help me. Funnily enough, now I've just finished blogging all the Schubert quartets I looked at the Mendelssohn quartets as my next project as I still have my old notes for all the Mendelssohn quartets (but started something else instead). Looks like my latest project is going on the backburner. Lol. Without checking (correct me if I'm wrong) Mendy wrote this quartet when he was just a teenager and it's full of quotes and references to Beethoven, in particular. There are quite a lot of very impressive recordings and I can think of the Auroras, Pacificas, Emersons, Takacs, Henschels, Talichs and Mosaiques off the top of my head but as usual I'll be scouring the net for a few unheralded ones (hopefully) and checking on the other complete sets (Bartholdy, Cherubini, etc). Gotta be around 60+ recordings of this one at least. I'll check soon.








_A few out of the cd racks_

I'm a sucker for this quartet, tbh, and usually rank it as Mendy's 2nd finest quartet (after the 6th) and it contains that wonderful 3rd movement, with its lovely pizzicato accompaniment. Its also in my favourite key (Am). I hope you enjoy this remarkable and unapologetically romantic quartet and find a recording that makes it really shine for you. There's a few new ones I'm really looking forward to hearing (and some old ones for that matter) but one thing I really like to hear in recordings of this work is a natural amping-up of the intensity in the 3rd and 4th movements (I do love it when quartets really throw themselves at that final movement). Nice pick, Kreisler.


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## starthrower

Thanks to Enthusiast for the Maxwell Davies quartet. An ambitious and meaty work which challenges and rewards the persistent listener. YMMV?


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## Kreisler jr

I might give the PMD #3 another chance tomorrow but listening once it was not really my cup of tea; I could hardly connect the titles of the movement with the content (unlike with the Valen piece).


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## starthrower

I interpreted March with the build up, confusion, deceit and folly of the momentum of the political machinery and media complicity for war.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Sorry to hear you have been unwell, Burbage. Still, you have managed a good perpendicular take on the work ... a little more serious, perhaps, than most of your posts in the series.


"idle and inoffensive" - where else could one come up with a similarly condescending report card line than in Evelyn Waugh - country. Bravo again and get well soon, Burbage!


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## Merl

Btw there's at least 75 recordings of the Mendelssohn. Le gulp.


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## SearsPoncho

Mendelssohn's 2nd was on my nominating list in the "I can't believe we haven't done that yet" group. I only know 6 quartets; perhaps there were more that were never published. I believe he was one of the greatest string quartet and chamber music composers after Beethoven and Schubert, and probably the greatest post-Schubert, Austro-German string quartet composer for the remainder of the 19th century (sorry, Brahms).

Merl: Ha, Ha! We've been taking it easy on you lately with these 1-3 recording selections. Same for Steve, with only 1-3 Naxos album covers. Well, friends, it's time to *unleash the hounds*!

You might notice that there will be a significant decline in forum participation from Wed-Sunday; Thursday is Thanksgiving in the U.S., and most of us will be inundated with relatives during those days. Of course, many of us might contribute even more as a respite from the madness of the holidays, in-laws, kids, etc.


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## Kreisler jr

There is one early Eb major quartet w/o opus number and the four separate pieces (Capriccio, Andante, Scherzo, Fugue) that are (implausibly) summarized as "op.81" in addition to the six quartets opp.12, 13, 44, 80. (They are often included as fillers but overall minor pieces and will not change ones perception of the composers. There is also a bunch of Fugues, included as fillers in a disc of the Vogler Q with opp.12 and 44/2 as main program)
op.13 was actually composed before the Eb major op.12, so it is the earliest among the published ones but later than the unnumbered Eb major.
I have in my collection Juilliard (1964), Cherubini, Artis, Talich, Sine Nomine, Ebene, Mosaiques 

I prefer this to his own f minor, to the Schubert a minor and probably also to most of Schumann's and Brahms' quartets (I like the latter's a minor a lot, though). I also cannot help being impressed by the 18 yo taking on Late Beethoven in a way not even Brahms really did 50 years late.


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## Merl

The only hard bit about this week is I want to hear the latest Takacs recording but it's not online and I'm not shelling out £13 for a recording I've not heard even though I suspect it will be quality.


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## Vicente

Apologies for the delay in sharing my impressions of last week's Davis quartet. The truth is that although my feelings are mixed, overall I must say that I have enjoyed listening to it at length.

It has been curious the change in my way of listening that has taken place, without being totally conscious of it. Let me explain, I am usually very analytical when listening to a work, looking for the moments that I liked or impressed me the most, reading previously some published notes about it and comparing several versions. On this occasion, I simply let the music do the talking. The program notes referring to planets, for me, are unintelligible and there is little point, considering my knowledge, in trying to analyze this kind of music.

However, it is so full of such unusual forms, micro-melodies, counterpoints, changes of rhythm/feel that it completely absorbed me.

A nice experience
Regards
Vicente


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## Merl

I've been listening to multiple recordings today and one I own is starting to frustrate me. I'm not going to reveal the problem I have with it yet but I will say its the 3rd movement from the lovely Henschel set (which I own and have always loved). They do something with the main melody that confuses me and annoys me a little (I'm guessing it's not in the score as no other ensemble does it). It slightly detracts, for me, from an otherwise highly recommendable recording. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else has noticed it or whether it p*sses them off too. I suspect strongly that it's just a bit of poetic license but if any score readers can check the violin melody at the start of the 3rd movement against the Henschel and let me know if I'm right. For Spotify users it's the link below.


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## Kreisler jr

I cannot check this one but the two recordings I listened to yesterday do treat that 3rd movement (even more so than the others) very differently as well and I find one of them rather excentric...


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I cannot check this one but the two recordings I listened to yesterday do treat that 3rd movement (even more so than the others) very differently as well and I find one of them rather excentric...


Please expand, Kreisler! Maybe it's specific to that 3rd movement.

Edit: btw, I'm not averse to ensembles taking some poetic license in SQs but when it's the main melody I get a little bit distracted. I can cope with / handle all sorts of different styles / tempi /performance styles from the quite old-fashioned romantic Gabrieli to the balls-to-the-wall approach of the Arods and just judge them on whether they resonate with me but when you're fiddling with the 'big choon' it usually never ends well. For example (in orchestral music) Kagel fiddles with the intro of the 2nd movement of Mahler's 1st Symphony by putting in some silly pauses that sound ridiculous. Needless to say I hate that performance because of that.


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## Kreisler jr

It was the Cherubini Q playing the outer sections of iii so slowly that it almost becomes a second slow movement but the contrast to the faster middle section is much stronger. The one I had heard before this was the Artis Q who are very fast (and dare I say a bit "slick") in all 4 movements but at least in the 3rd their approach seemed more mainstream to me than the Cherubinis. IIRC the Mosaiques are also slowish but I'll have to listen to more different recordings.


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## Malx

I'm going to sit on sidelines on this one and read with interest others' valued opinions then I will try a few via streaming. I recently bought the Cherubini set - the price was excellent and being an impecunius Scot it appealed as a starting point - before that I had rarely heard any of Mendelssohn's quartets so my knowledge is virtually non existent.

Over to you guys.


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> It was the Cherubini Q playing the outer sections of iii so slowly that it almost becomes a second slow movement but the contrast to the faster middle section is much stronger. The one I had heard before this was the Artis Q who are very fast (and dare I say a bit "slick") in all 4 movements but at least in the 3rd their approach seemed more mainstream to me than the Cherubinis. IIRC the Mosaiques are also slowish but I'll have to listen to more different recordings.


Lol, the Cherubini recording is one I listened to today to check it and obviously great minds think alike. I wrote the words "3rd movement wayyyyy too slow and dull" next to my original notes from a few years ago (which simply said "not competitive"). Most ensembles knock out that 3rd movement in around 5mins (average) or less. The Mosaiques do take that 3rd movement a little slowly too but at 5:20 its hardly in Celi territory so I'm OK with it. I think the problem is that there's little forward momentum from the Cherubini, who are consistently good in the other quartets. The Leipzigers do something similar in a rather dull Schubert 4th quartet recording, I reviewed a few weeks back. Do check out the Henschels though. I want to see if anyone else feels the same about their changes. 

Edit: btw, of all the recordings I've listened to up to now the Elias quartet are probably the quickest in the 3rd movement at 4:17 but they don't make it sound too fast and are broader than others elsewhere in the quartet.


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## SearsPoncho

I have the Aurora Quartet cycle on Naxos, which I'm enjoying before the madness of Thanksgiving week kicks into full gear. The Mozart comparison is appropriate. I adore the infectious energy and irresistible melodies in all of Mendelssohn's music.


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## StevehamNY

I've listened to this week's quartet probably ten times by now? Maybe twelve? I just don't get tired of hearing it.

So thank you, KJ, first of all, for bringing it to my attention. I like it so much that I'm actually kind of upset about it. I mean, the simple fact that I probably never would have heard it if not for this forum. How much great music was I destined to miss if I never happened to stumble in here, and once here, been warmly received and not sent packing because I wasn't wearing a proper bowtie?

I'm actually working myself into an odd sort of rant, which I'll probably have to unleash 'round about Friday, once the turkey dinner has digested. I'll tie it into some album covers and try to be funny about it, but the driving thought behind it is genuine. I simply shouldn't have gone five-plus decades not knowing about most of the music that I've discovered here and I need somebody to blame, damn it! (Besides myself, which is no fun.)

By the way, Merl, I did buy the recent Takacs set on Hyperion, and as you'd expect, it is played (and recorded) beautifully. I wish I could beam it to you in time for you to include in your review. I actually don't think it would take top honors, though, because there's one other quartet that just rips this thing from beginning to end and I'm anxious to see if you agree!

And speaking of covers, here's the Hyperion. Not all that special at first glance, just the usual kind of landscape deal, but here's This Week's Trivia Question: What makes this album cover absolutely unique among all of the recordings surveyed in this forum?


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## Malx

Another of my admissions, and also an expression of concern that my mental faculties are on the wane.

In my earlier post I suggested the only recording I had was the Cherubini Quartet in their complete recordings set, yet when I listened extensively yesterday the familiarity of themes in the opening and third movements rang some bells in the empty space that is my cranial cavity and after some rummaging about I found I also have the Alban Berg live recording in their 'Hommage' box and perhaps more disconcertingly I have the Quatuor Ebene set that I only bought a few months back.

Having got over that hiatus - I have enjoyed spending time with this quartet greatly and whilst others commented on the slow nature of the Cherubinis in the third movement I find myself liking the dignity they bring to the start of the movement which I feel some others rush to the detriment of the theme, each to their own I guess.

I love the first movement of the quartet and indeed the finale, usually I am drawn to slow movements but in this quartet whilst it is in no way bad I just get more out of the others.

I sampled and played around eight recordings over the last couple of days and have have a preference for the following of those I tried. Of course there are many others I haven't tried and there will likely be some gems in amongst those recordings.

Alban Berg Live - probably the most forthright of the recordings I enjoyed best.
Henschel - despite Merl's concern with the opening of the third movement which I can understand, but it doesn't bother me much and overall this is a very successful performance.
Tetzlaff Quartett - nothing specific to comment on here other than when listening through the music shone through, added to a decent recording makes for a super disc.

Quatuor Ebene  - this is my preference of all the recordings I've listened to - there is plenty of attack when required yet they don't rush anything unduly, the wonderful third movement tune/theme is ideally paced for this listener and I already have it in my collection which is an added bonus.

One other recording I enjoyed greatly but I suggest wouldn't be a first recommendation (thanks Merl for the nudge in its direction) is the Quatuor Mosaiques who typically play without much vibrato and at what for some may be regarded as a glacial pace, but as someone who enjoys late Klemperer and Giulini orchestral works, the time allowed to take in details that might otherwise be missed is an enjoyable alternative take on the piece.

To all across the pond enjoy Thanksgiving and give thanks for all the marvellous music we've enjoyed in this thread over the last year.


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## Merl

Although I did indeed give Malx a nudge to listen to the Mosaiques it was so he could hear a rather different recording but it's certainly not my first choice here and there are quite a few I enjoy more (I'll get to that tomorrow). Malx is indeed spot on with what he says about the slower speeds in the Mosaiques recording and, whilst that usually doesn't bother me, when it's combined with limited vibrato it can make a recording sound a little 'empty' noatter how stunningly recorded and played it is. I know not everyone would agree and it was generally lauded on its release but you can only go with what sounds right to you. I picked out the Henschels and their strange 3rd movement as they seem to be putting in additional sixteenth notes in (hope I'm right there - remember I can't read music) where they aren't needed and whilst some may find this valid it just annoys me as its the main melody and no other ensemble I've heard does it. I'm not being unfair to them either as I have that cycle and view it as one of, if not, the best available. The only one I've not heard / reacquainted myself with is the Takacs as its not on my streaming, no-one I know has it (so I can listen to it) and there is no 'dodgy' version available on YouTube so my review will likely be without that one .

I'll echo in some respects what Malx said here and say that the slow movement is by far the weakest moment of the quartet for me. Its certainly not rubbish but it really doesn't go anywhere and when surrounded by 3 cracking movements it's going to find it hard to make an impact. I will say that the number of high quality recordings out there is possibly higher than any quartet I've ever reviewed and there's a wide range of types of performance (from very gentle to pedal-to-the-metal) and my final summing up will reflect that. Very few ensembles mess it up completely so if you're investing your chance of getting a decent quality recording are very high. I've even had to leave easily recommendable recordings by the Vellinger, Sharon, Shanghai, Coull and Gabrieli Quartets off my final list as I can't fit them on without my list becoming unwieldy. I just have a couple left to relisten to before I sum up..

As I said earlier in the week, this is my 2nd favourite Mendelssohn quartet (although I enjoy all of his numbered and unnumbered quartets). For those who enjoy romantic-era music it's a quartet that is difficult to dislike as it has some serious earworm melodies ("bangin' choons"). In fact, I've been humming the melody of the 3rd movement all week again - thanks). I hope others have enjoyed it as much, too. If not its not a problem - would be a dull thread if we all liked the same stuff. I thought Jos might have commented on this one.... I'll give him a shout... Jos! JOS!!!


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## sbmonty

Merl said:


> I've been listening to multiple recordings today and one I own is starting to frustrate me. I'm not going to reveal the problem I have with it yet but I will say its the 3rd movement from the lovely Henschel set (which I own and have always loved). They do something with the main melody that confuses me and annoys me a little (I'm guessing it's not in the score as no other ensemble does it). It slightly detracts, for me, from an otherwise highly recommendable recording. I'd be interested in hearing if anyone else has noticed it or whether it p*sses them off too. I suspect strongly that it's just a bit of poetic license but if any score readers can check the violin melody at the start of the 3rd movement against the Henschel and let me know if I'm right. For Spotify users it's the link below.


I took a listen to the Henschel recording, particularly the third movement. The phrasing is slightly slurred, at the expense of some of the silences. Is this what you're referring to Merl? I have limited musical training, so would be interested if this would correctly be termed rubato.


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> I took a listen to the Henschel recording, particularly the third movement. The phrasing is slightly slurred, at the expense of some of the silences. Is this what you're referring to Merl? I have limited musical training, so would be interested if this would correctly be termed rubato.


See my last post, SBM. And yes there is slurring too.


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## starthrower

I borrowed the Emerson 4 disc set from the library. This one has much better sound than my Schubert set. I read that they did an overdub job on the octet. I don't have any recordings so I'll give it a listen. I don't listen much to Mendelssohn's symphonies but love the chamber music including the quartets and trios. I do have the Cherubini set so I was familiar with this fine quartet.


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## Kreisler jr

A few remarks about the quartet. 
It was composed 1827, the year Beethoven died, when Mendelssohn was 18 years old but published only after the E flat major op.12 that was actually composed about 2 years later. The quartet somewhat obviously refers to several Beethoven quartets, especially op.132 but also op.135 and op.95 and because it was composed shortly after Beethoven's death, it seems not implausible to see it as a kind of homage. Nevertheless it is also thoroughly "Mendelssohnian".

In fact while the slow introduction (A major) has some similarities with the "Muss es sein?" from LvBs op.135, it is actually a quotation of a phrase from a song ("Frage"/Question) by Mendelssohn himself, "Ist es wahr?" (Is it true?) The 16th flourishes and the dotted main motive of the following Allegro vivace (4/4 a minor) seem clear reminiscences of op.132,i. Some other gestures remind one of the Beethoven movement but overall it is a rather different, straighter and faster movement.

The 2nd movement (F major 3/4 - 4/4 Adagio non lento) starts rather Mendelssohnian, lyrical and songful. After this first section follows a fugato (d minor) that seems another Beethoven reminiscence, this time either to the 2nd movement of the 7th symphony or the quartet op.95. This leads to a dramatic development where the fugato style is not always kept up (and some motives from, the first movements second theme seem to creep in?) until a recitative by the first violin leads to a reprise of the F major theme of the beginning and finally we get a contrapuntal combination of the lyrical beginning theme and the fugue theme.

The 3rd movement (a minor 2/4 Allegretto con moto has nothing at all to do with Beethoven; it is an early example of the second contribution (after the leggiero "elfin scherzo" of Octet and MSND fame) Mendelssohn made as new option for menuet/scherzo movements, namely an lyrical intermezzo in a moderate tempo (here with a Allegro di molto "light-footed" middle section in A major). The return of the first section is somewhat varied with a bit more interesting accompaniment instead of mostly pizzicato and a brief coda where a spooky minor variant of the leggiero theme of the middle 
As already mentioned, some quartets take it more flowing, others more ominously and slowly. In any case it has a somewhat "archaic" feel to me, like a ballad with harp (pizzicato) accompaniment or so. Mendelssohn's "Scottish" symphony and ouverture are a bit later but the fascination with the Celtic had already had its first flourishing already 50 years earlier with the fake Ossian poetry (and generally, folklore and folk music were an interest of the (German) romantics of that time)

The finale (Presto 2/2 a minor) starts with another (maybe too) obvious op.132 hommage, a passionate recitative of the first violin with tremolo in the others. Even the first theme that follows is a bit similar to Beethoven's, subsidiary themes remind me of the fast "marchlike" finale of op.131. However, whereas Beethoven's finale in op.132 is a comparably short movement with a long triumphant coda, Mendelssohn's finale is the longest movement of the piece and shows cyclic features absent from the Beethoven quartet. In fact the development begins with a return of the fugato theme from the slow movement, the recapitulation is again preceded by the recitative. After this we encounter again the fugato theme but it is modified and fused with the recitative and then again quoted literally (with the italian marking for the slow movement), followed by another short recitative that leads to A major and the song quotation ("question") from the very beginning of the piece Thus after a very stormy Presto the movement ends quietly, as it began, another surprise, with the "transfiguration" of the introduction.

But maybe the true marvel of this piece is that it sounds mostly quite "natural", all the homages, quotations, cyclic transformation do not appear conceited to me (maybe the finale a little bit).

score:
https://s9.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/3/34/IMSLP10972-Mendelssohn_-_String_Quartet_No._2.pdf


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## Merl

I've just blogged my final thoughts (minus the Takacs, whose recording is in the post)
Hope you find something in there that's interesting. I went with a surprising (for some) choice for this one but it didn't surprise me as this particular quartet play great Mendelssohn. Nearly anything out of the top tiers of my recommended recordings could have won it this week and I'm sure you'll all have your own champions and tbh I probably won't disagree as the quality here was so high.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3538-mendelssohn-string-quartet-2-a.html


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## Carmina Banana

I've been on the road for a few days but dying to get into this quartet! I love hearing newer, less familiar works, but it is great to have some meat and potatoes once in a while. 
Thanks for the thorough description, Kreisler Jr. and there is one thing in particular that I wholeheartedly agree with: this quartet, like much of the composers work, sounds natural, seamless and effortless. In this way, he often reminds me of Mozart. 
Strangely, I am always interested in performances that are objected to for whatever reason so I rushed to hear the Henschel 3rd movement that has been bothering Merl.
I think what we are hearing is the bow bouncing on the string slightly, AKA a lack of bow control. I have checked the manuscript of this quartet just in case, they were using a more authentic version (?). No. It is just an A quarter note. I chalk this up to "should we do another take? Naw, let's move on." This aside, I will have to say I don't really like their performance of this movement in general. On the surface, this tune seems very simple, but there is an interesting ambiguity regarding this A. Is it the end of the previous phrase, the beginning of the phrase, or a pickup even though it is on the downbeat? The Henschel are kind of unimaginative in the way they present this and, more egregious, the repeat is pretty exactly the same. I am comparing to the Emersons for instance and they take the predictable but effective route of playing the repeat a dynamic down. It is surprisingly touching and makes the Henschels seem a bit like a bull in a china shop.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> I've been on the road for a few days but dying to get into this quartet! I love hearing newer, less familiar works, but it is great to have some meat and potatoes once in a while.
> Thanks for the thorough description, Kreisler Jr. and there is one thing in particular that I wholeheartedly agree with: this quartet, like much of the composers work, sounds natural, seamless and effortless. In this way, he often reminds me of Mozart.
> Strangely, I am always interested in performances that are objected to for whatever reason so I rushed to hear the Henschel 3rd movement that has been bothering Merl.
> I think what we are hearing is the bow bouncing on the string slightly, AKA a lack of bow control. I have checked the manuscript of this quartet just in case, they were using a more authentic version (?). No. It is just an A quarter note. I chalk this up to "should we do another take? Naw, let's move on." This aside, I will have to say I don't really like their performance of this movement in general. On the surface, this tune seems very simple, but there is an interesting ambiguity regarding this A. Is it the end of the previous phrase, the beginning of the phrase, or a pickup even though it is on the downbeat? The Henschel are kind of unimaginative in the way they present this and, more egregious, the repeat is pretty exactly the same. I am comparing to the Emersons for instance and they take the predictable but effective route of playing the repeat a dynamic down. It is surprisingly touching and makes the Henschels seem a bit like a bull in a china shop.


Good it's not just me that it annoys. For me it comes across as a cop-out so they don't have to hold the note for the correct length (akin to shouting "one, two, three, four and..."). As I said it ruins their otherwise very good reading. The reason I went with the Tinalley performance as my fave was it seemed to have everything, pacing was perfect and I like the added weight in sound. Tbh, I could have picked any from the list above it as there were some beauties and if anyone prefers the Ebene, Eroica, Tetzlaff, etc more I totally understand as there were some brilliant accounts. I marked the Mosaiques down purely cos of the slightly slower tempos that didn't work for me but otherwise what a beautiful sound they make and some will adore that even more. Thanks to Kreisler (I cant be bothered checking back? ) for the pick and it was good to hear this old chesnut again as its been a while since I gave it an outing (and it may be another while after that Mendyfest). I agree, CB, that it seems a simpler quartet on the surface but dig deeper and there's all sorts going on especially in the outer movements. How the hell an 18 year old wrote this I'll never know. At his age I couldn't use a washing machine or even find my @rse with both hands.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mendelssohn's music is always quality. Even in his juvenilia and in those pieces of his which I don't much care for (gasp—violin concerto, 4th symphony), I get the sensation that he never wrote an insincere note in his life. It all brims with poetry, skill, and zest for the joy of living. His chamber music is my favorite part of his oeuvre and never disappoints, but I had not previously heard this 2nd quartet since I had apparently assumed the later ones would be more worthwhile. How wrong I was! Though the relatively basic counterpoint and somewhat repetitive material bespeaks its youthful genesis, the miraculous Mendelssohnian touch wins the day. The opening is Haydnesque in the best possible way—the masterful lyrical introduction followed by the jarring modulation is absolutely gripping and a fantastic entry to the work, and the rest of the movement is full of addictive energy (his sister's quartet that we listened to a while back starts in a very similar way—coincidence?) The second movement is an imaginative and enjoyable Adagio with an unexpected and effective central core of dramatic turbulence. My favorite thing here is that unconventional, Brahmsian "intermezzo" which nicely balances the tension of the rest of the work. The finale I found not to be quite of the same caliber; a bit overlong and relentless but not bad by any means. Nowhere do I feel this music is truly tragic in the mode Mendelssohn would later reach in his great final F minor quartet, perhaps his most throughly "serious" (in mood) work of all, but there are certainly signs of it. Overall, a spirited, elfin romp that outshines its flaws and keeps me coming back for more.

It's tough to perform Mendelssohn well—there needs to be virtuosity, but also a feather-light touch and lyrical sensitivity. Looks like I'll need to investigate some of Merl's recommendations since the two I chose quite at random from Idagio—the HIP Chiaroscuro and the Juilliard—failed to make me believe they had unlocked all the music's secrets; the former tight and astringent, not living up to their name with too many shadows and not enough light, and the latter surprisingly prosaic and slack.


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## Bwv 1080

Been listening to the Eroica, who was my favorite for Schumann - really like the sound, and FM quartets are new ground for me, and enjoying them quite a bit


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, so I've been doing my own research._

18th October 1827

Dear Diary,

Felix has, once again, spent the day merrily chattering about Hegel, before sneaking off to yet another lecture. This week the Great Professor has been enlightening his flock of faithful boys - and they are, of course, all boys - on the symmetry of love and the ideal of womanhood and why Felix has to tell me about it all, I don't know. In the meantime, in the less rarified air of Leipzig Street, he's been skulking around Betty Pistor like a beggar at the market, to the point that it's almost embarrassing. Rebecka says she's dared Betty to give him a slap when he finally blurts it all out, but Betty's more fond of decorum than natural justice and, besides, Felix is unlikely to blurt. It's not just that he's too sensitive for words (when it suits him); it's that he's a man, and the more men talk about freedom, the more they tie themselves in knots.

That's why I like Hensel. He's blithely happy about everything, though he can't sing a note. A lesser man (though perhaps not a lesser artist) might cavil at being paid to copy out another man's pictures but Hensel, when he's reminded to write to me, says he's thoroughly enjoying his time in Italy, and I'm sure he is. Not in any unwholesome way, of course. He lives in two dimensions which, though annoying, is also a comfort, and if a regiment of landlady's daughters were to serenade him hourly, it would take him a month to notice. That has, however, made our courtship very hard work, and I'm quite glad that, for the moment, I've only got the whole household, the Sunday afternoon concerts and Felix's compositions to supervise. Though I could do without the Hegel.

In fairness, it's keeping Felix occupied, at least, and distracting from his morbid thoughts. The death of dear deaf Ludwig really has hit him very hard, and he's got it into his head, probably from that fiddler at the opera, that he must write a string quartet as a sort of homage. Ever since Goethe (a shrivelled old scientist who used to run a copper mine) told us he was some sort of Mozart, he's been flouncing about like an infant National Treasure and if he wasn't my brother he'd surely have had an accident with the mangle by now. But at least he's flouncing over his quartet for the moment. Infuriatingly, he insisted on working it up around a song he's pretending he wrote (to a text he's pretending he didn't), because it asks, unsubtly, "ist es wahr?", which suits his sordid motive. Perhaps it's as well that, when it was three-quarters written, Beethoven's publishers, who've been mourning their author with all the quiet dignity of a startled goose, rushed out his final quartet, with "muss es sein?" all over it, so we've been able to go back and make Felix's quartet an echo of that, rather than so obviously an impertinent question of Betty (who'd have a very different answer). Less happily, it's meant I've had to go through it all over again, bar by painful bar, suggesting things that'll suppress the point he's trying to make, and bring out the point he says he's trying to make, all without being too blatant or hurtful or giving the game away or letting poor Felix forget that it's the passionate distillation of his own unspeakably lovesick soul.

It's an exhausting business, but we must press on. The opera-house fiddler, who seems to have friends, has been invited to play it next Sunday already and Felix has, unwisely, sent over some parts, so it's all looking horribly inevitable. I asked Rebecka if she wouldn't tell Betty that I thought the cook had got some sort of plague, but Rebecka thought I probably didn't and so she wouldn't and now it looks like poor dear Betty's going to have to sit through a fusillade of mush, trying to feign interest in the scenery, while Felix does that thing with his eyebrows.

But perhaps I'm being too harsh. Betty isn't the most oblique of people and the quartet isn't bad, for all the baggage it's carrying. Perhaps, one day, I'll write another.

* _A comprehensive edition of Fanny Hensel's diaries was published by Breitkopf and Hartel in 2002 but, in the absence of a copy or much grasp of German, I've based this reconstruction more on hope than words._


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## Merl

I know what you mean about the Juilliard recording, ACB. It just made little impact on me, being neither especially well-played, idiomatic, highly polished or well-recorded. The Magginis were surprisingly a bit dull here too. I liked the Chiaroscuro recording a lot but you really have to Crank the volume to appreciate it as its a fairly subtle sounding recording on first visit. With a subsequent play, at a rather loud level, it revealed its subtleties much more to me but I totally get why that particular vision might not resonate. Listening again to the Arod recording again last night I'm wondering whether to upgrade it. It is very good indeed. Hmmmm!


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## Kreisler jr

I think there are at least two Juilliard recordings, one from ca. 1964 (with op. 44/1), the other from 1998 (with op. 12) or is there even another one from the time in between? 
I have the former in a collector's box and liked it when I got that box last winter (and I find JQ from this period almost always worthwhile) or so but have not had a chance to relisten. 
The LaSalle also recorded op.12+13 on DG among their relatively few romantic era discs but I think this was never issued on CD or only briefly and not internationally. In any case it seems the most recorded of all Mendelssohn's quartets as ensembles that record only a few almost always include the a minor.


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I think there are at least two Juilliard recordings, one from ca. 1964 (with op. 44/1), the other from 1998 (with op. 12) or is there even another one from the time in between?
> I have the former in a collector's box and liked it when I got that box last winter (and I find JQ from this period almost always worthwhile) or so but have not had a chance to relisten.
> The LaSalle also recorded op.12+13 on DG among their relatively few romantic era discs but I think this was never issued on CD or only briefly and not internationally. In any case it seems the most recorded of all Mendelssohn's quartets as ensembles that record only a few almost always include the a minor.


I listened to the earlier Juilliard but wasn't aware of another so I'll give that a listen if I can find it on Spotify. As far as the LaSalle, I did mention that in my round-up and found it perfectly recommendable but preferred others. Thanks for the heads-up about the later Juilliard, Kreisler, I missed that one.


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## Kreisler jr

My heads up was actually for the earlier Juilliard... I have never heard the more recent one.


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## StevehamNY

I was promising/threatening a rant today, but I still have some leftover thankfulness from our American holiday yesterday, so instead I'm just going to spend a minute here being grateful.

I'm grateful for another amazing Burbage post, first of all. Can you even imagine anyone else creating something like this? Or another forum on which you'd find it? And if you'll excuse the mush, I'm grateful for everyone else here, in this oasis amid all the darkness and madness. And of course for all of the music that I've discovered as a direct result of being allowed to hang around here.

That's what got me oddly upset earlier this week, when I listened to this quartet written by someone whose name I barely knew before I got here (and written when he was a freaking teenager, no less). And it made me remember yet again that for the first few decades of my life, my entire perception of classical music could be neatly encapsulated by this old Vista "120 Music Masterpieces" commercial from the 1970s:






I can't believe I found this! But I remember it vividly, because it played on an almost nightly basis on late-night TV. The perfection of a classically-trained actor like John Williams ("Dial M for Murder") delivering that last line: "Here's how to order yours," followed by detailed instructions for ordering this extravaganza on either records or tapes. I was fascinated by it, but needless to say a young version of me had absolutely no interest in actually listening to any of this music. It frankly sounded like the kind of torture you'd have to endure while politely sitting on a plastic-covered divan in a distant relative's finished basement.

Now, I can't fairly blame Vista (or Time/Life, who had their own version of this collection) for creating this blanket perception in my mind. But what I've been lamenting this week is that nobody else ever told me what I was missing. I didn't have any close family members or friends who loved classical music, nor any of my teachers as far as I can remember. (I grew up either reading books or playing sports, never playing an instrument.)

This is why a name like "Mendelssohn" was destined to always stay somewhere in that gray muddle with the Schuberts and Schumanns and Stravinskys. Even if someone like Beethoven or Mozart could break out of that muddle, it would be the symphonic music and nothing else. For decades!

Long story made only slightly shorter, most of the amazing and revelatory music in my life I had to discover on my own, almost accidentally, starting with jazz. And jazz piano, when you take it far enough, leads you into contemporary classical piano (Bartok, Sorabji), which leads you backwards into Beethoven's sonatas (and Prokofiev's and so on). This piano lifeline led me into the world of _chamber music_, a term which is frankly a publicist's nightmare, because come on, chamber music? As in chamber pots? Could you come up with something stuffier-sounding than chamber music if you tried?

But anyway, whatever it took, I finally stumbled into string quartet music, and even though I think I've quoted this before, Mark Ivanir's line from the movie "A Late Quartet," comes to mind:

"The greatest composers, when they wanted to express their most sincere thoughts, feelings... dig deep into their souls... always this form, always, always the quartet. If they were courageous enough."​
(He mispronounces "timbre" earlier in the same scene, but I still recommend the movie if you haven't seen it!)

And so, because I spend so much of my time thinking about book covers and understanding how important they are, I can't help but look at album covers with the same eye. And whenever I see a string quartet album with an alpine landscape and a cow in the foreground or a pondscape with water lilies or a seaportscape with tall sailing ships, it takes me right back to that old commercial and the younger me thinking, "No, thanks, I'm gonna go listen to my ELO albums." (Yes, Electric Light Orchestra with the violin and the cellos! I see the irony here! I was so close!) It makes me want to yell things at the record label's art director, because amazing music such as young Mendelssohn's 2nd quartet demands something better than this:









Or this:









Or freaking this:









And this is why I will never again make fun of a group like the Ebenes when they walk down the street acting like they're the second coming of the Clash:









Because why not? At least they're _trying_ to represent something other than the Vista/Time/Life version of classical music, and I say keep going for it. (And by the way, I think they play the hell out of this quartet.)

And that's enough out of me for one day.

Thanks again to everyone here.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

This is the only recording I listened to this week, but when I did, it was in my Jaguar (did I say I bought a fancy electric car?). I'm always happy to hear Mendelssohn, to me one of the most positive composers. I've spent more time with op. 44, but know I've heard it before.


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## Carmina Banana

I took a cue from Merl and my latest listen was the Arod quartet. 
This is an extraordinary recording. 
They have moments of non-vibrato that seem a bit cold but it is only to contrast with the overall excitement of their interpretation. Likewise, the range of dynamics is extreme. At times they almost disappear, but then come back with a vengeance. The outer movements have a forward momentum. There is a natural, fluid use of rubato that always serves the music. For instance, the last movement picks up speed as it goes and creates just the right effect in my opinion. In the third movement, where the theme breaks off, they do it more gradually than others and it makes perfect sense. 
I feel like a lot of thought went into this recording. You can tell they have strong feelings about this piece. It is not a once-over-lightly read through.

So far, this is my favorite.

I also like the Modigliani very much. I don’t how I feel about the loud, somewhat breathing though (a perennial topic).


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## Carmina Banana

Steve, 
I loved your post. First of all, I was just talking about that exact commercial. This ad is such a blast from the past!
While you were ignoring classical music, I was experiencing the opposite childhood. My sister was a rock fanatic and I managed to ignore the constant stream of Stones, Patti Smith and Elvis Costello coming from her room and listened only to Mozart and Beethoven. Now, I regret my decision to jettison all non-classical music from life at an early age. As an adult, I have an interest in all music. Why did I have such tunnel-vision as a kid?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's pick goes to *allaroundmusicenthusiast*, then we will be ready to start our _fifth_ trip through the order! Wow!


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## StevehamNY

StevehamNY said:


> And speaking of covers, here's the Hyperion. Not all that special at first glance, just the usual kind of landscape deal, but here's This Week's Trivia Question: What makes this album cover absolutely unique among all of the recordings surveyed in this forum?


Nobody bit on my trivia question, so I guess I'll just have to tell you the answer:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this (outstanding) Takacs recording features the only album cover we've seen for which the composer of the music and the artist who created the cover artwork are the same person. (It's an 1847 watercolor by Felix himself.)


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## Malx

Carmina Banana said:


> I also like the Modigliani very much. I don't how I feel about the loud, somewhat breathing though (a perennial topic).


I have a few discs by the Modigliani's and their breathiness is something I have learned to put up with - thankfully more often than not their performances more than compensate for the minor distraction.
There are a lot more irritating things in the world right now - so I enjoy the playing and smile.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Listened only to the Pacifica recording I own - brilliant!

I would like to add my voice to that of Steve to say that the series of postings this week was a particularly rewarding and enjoyable one - thanks to all of you. 

I have nothing original to contribute to the quartet but the again hilarious jibes in Burbage's post against Hegel (I sooo agree) and the copper miner Goethe prompted me to read Hegel's treatise on the aesthetics of music. Most of it is written in a way that will guarantee turning anybody away from enjoying music but there was one little nugget in there, which I find applies very aptly to string quartets and complements Steve's quote on the subject: "Und so herrscht denn in der Musik ebensosehr die tiefste Innigkeit und Seele als der strengste Verstand, so dass sie zwei Extreme in sich vereinigt, die sich leicht gegeneinander verselbständigen" (very badly translated: And thus, music is equally governed by innermost feelings and the soul -and- strictest reason; it therefore unites two extremes that often take independent turns against each other".


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## Merl

Just received this in the post. A huge "I'm not worthy" thanks to the generosity of a wonderful member here and Presto's decent prices. I'll play it tomorrow and expect it will sneak into my round-up somewhere.


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## Carmina Banana

I just read the chapter from Rosen’s “The Romantic Generation” about Mendelssohn. I didn’t learn a lot, but he does detail just how closely Felix modeled this quartet on Beethoven. It is truly amazing how a composer of his age was able to take up where Beethoven left off and create such a work of greatness.
I feel like there are huge differences between Beethoven and Mendelssohn and maybe one example brought up by Rosen is in M’s use of cyclical form.
“Mendelssohn’s forms, however, push to the surface and display for the common listener relationships which lie half buried in Beethoven and work on us unconsciously.” 
Anyone having thoughts about this?


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## SearsPoncho

I decided to emerge from a mountain of turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, cranberry stuff, macaroni with bechamel casserole, pumpkin pie, apple pie, ice cream, relatives, football, kids, Christmas tree construction, and tons more, to take a gander at the thread and read what my learned and distinguished colleagues wrote about my beloved Mendelssohn. Wow! It's going to take me a while to get through it all, but at first glance, the music seems to have elicited some very interesting comments by all. As usual, thanks to Merl for his tireless efforts. I'm so drunk with food (and some booze), that I misread his blog: I thought he wrote that the Emersons gave a period instrument performance! Wrong ensemble, SP. :lol: Steve, that was a fascinating catch re: the cover art; I didn't even know Mendelssohn was a visual artist. As I previously stated, there's something about the combination of infectious energy and breezy, romantic lyricism that always draws me into Mendelssohn's music. Mal, what's great about this music is you can get it from 1st listen. You don't need to reference some astrological and mathematical metaphor or read a 100 page thesis to attempt to barely understand it after 100 listens; it's speaks to music-lovers immediately. And ACB, you really don't like the Violin Concerto or the "Italian" Symphony? Well, as that great philosopher B. Bunny once said, "One man's meat is another man's poison." 

Thanks to Kreisler,Jr. for an excellent selection.

Time to get back to the tail end of the Thanksgiving madness...

P.S. No need to be embarrassed by the music one listened to back in the day. ELO is actually pretty good. My first 3 concerts were Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and (the) Scorpions in the early 80's, my high school years. It was awesome at the time, and gave me a passion for music which led me to classical music. I don't regret one moment of those days.


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## Merl

I love Mendelssohn's quartets. They have a vivacity that's infectious and, as SP pointed out, are immediately attractive and memorable if you enjoy romantic music. I definitely think that when i get thru my current project I'll start on blogging the rest of Mendelssohn's quartets. I still have a lot of notes from years ago.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> I love Mendelssohn's quartets. They have a vivacity that's infectious and, as SP pointed out, are immediately attractive and memorable...


I quite agree; I love them, too. And Op. 13 is a wonderful and distinctive example. Sure, its debt to Beethoven is clear, but Mendelssohn's own musical personality is always strongly evident, and this quartet demonstrates the craft and yes innovation in common with all of the other masterpieces from his teenage years. How many other string quartets before the 20th c. century end softly? And how many eschew a triple-meter scherzo or minuet in favor of a duple-meter intermezzo?

Mendelssohn's early period was pretty much all pre-teen. By age 15, he was a mature composer composing masterpieces. Op. 13, at age 18, comes across as a mature quartet, with more confidence, polish, and originality than most composers are capable of even after decades!


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's pick goes to *allaroundmusicenthusiast*, then we will be ready to start our _fifth_ trip through the order! Wow!


Before unveiling my pick tomorrow I'll just say that you can rest assured that I won't try to outdo my Kagel pick!


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## Merl

I've finally listened to the Takacs (and Carmina Quartet) recordings and added them into my roundup. I've also had to adjust Mendelssohn 6 and Fanny Mendelssohn blogs as they're on the same disc.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3538-mendelssohn-string-quartet-2-a.html

PS, after doing a quick comparative listen I've also moved that Arod recording up. I knew I would. Its just superb and thrilling.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

So my choice for this week is John Cage's *String Quartet in Four Parts*.

Schönberg, who was Cage's composition teacher for a few years, once said that John was more an inventor than a composer. John, in pure Cage manner, accepted that label gladly and took it for himself.

However, after having spent quite some time in recent months with his music, I think that we still don't quite understand Cage as a composer and don't realize the power of his music as music not as a tearing down of barriers, as lab inventions.

This piece, IMO an exquisitely beautiful piece of art which deals a lot with the western canon (and indeed the 3rd movement is a canon), if you don't know it, will hopefully open up for you a new window into Cage's music, as it opened up "new possibilites" (his words) for him.


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## Enthusiast

I have never been much of a Mendelssohn fan - I am never sure he does as much as he might have with his better ideas and often feel his music has a little too much froth - but there are plenty of his pieces that I quite enjoy. I wouldn't mention this were it not that most here seem to revere him greatly and I need to confess I am not exactly with you all on that. So I cannot relate to Carmina Banana's "meat and potatoes" metaphor for this work! I relate to it rather differently as a lightweight work (but Mendelssohn was a youngster when he composed it so fair enough) with some nice tunes and ideas that doesn't really go anywhere that interesting. I am not necessarily demanding intellectual rigour - perhaps Tchaikovsky has demonstrated that less of that might have been an improvement - but I do feel that it might at least have left an overall impression or flavour that wins my heart. Anyway, I have listened to the Talich recording (which I see has Merl's stamp of approval) a few times and came to enjoy it more by the end of the week. But it still leaves me a little cold, I'm afraid.

Meanwhile, in the week before I wondered how after a big welcome the PMD quartet did not generate much discussion. The overall opinion seemed to be that it was worthy of respect ... which didn't fit with the love that I feel for it! Those who persevered with it might give it another try in a month of so. I feel sure that something more emotional will come through eventually.

A now to some Cage. I welcome that as he is a composer I have long been meaning to spend a little time with.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Nice! Have to admit I've almost completely ignored his work, seeing him as more of an academic engine behind the postmodern movement than someone with legitimate artistic products to offer; though I don't mind those quirky, plonky prepared-piano pieces. At least we can rest assured that in this cordial thread the chances are low for one of the Three Fundamental Laws of TC to take effect (at least as I interpret them: all discussions are bound to end up at some point in a discussion of objective greatness, Wagner and Nazis, or Cage's 4'33):lol:


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## Malx

Well for me this is a journey into the unknown - however ears open, mind open lets give it a go. 
The one thing I hope is that there is no four volume treatise required to be read to enable understanding of the piece, because that is an huge negative hurdle for me.


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## Merl

I've never heard this one so this should be interesting.


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> I've never heard this one so this should be interesting.


I opened the booklet from my LaSalle CD and read this:

"The responsibility of the artist consists in perfecting his work so that it may become attractively disinteresting" - John Cage

This relates to the Zen practice of quieting the mind for spiritual enrichment.

Malx, you may want to read the Wiki entry. It's much shorter than a 4 volume treatise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_in_Four_Parts


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## StevehamNY

One more Cage quote that I think is very interesting and enlightening:

"When I hear what we call music, it seems to me that someone is talking. And talking about his feelings, or about his ideas of relationships. But when I hear traffic, the sound of traffic-here on Sixth Avenue, for instance-I don't have the feeling that anyone is talking. I have the feeling that sound is acting. And I love the activity of sound... I don't need sound to talk to me."​
(Needless to say, I don't think this idea is going to fly with everyone here. But that's okay, right?)

And finally, just because I can't resist this _New Yorker_ cartoon which is so perfect for the season:


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## Allegro Con Brio

I always love the concise yet insightful write-ups from AllMusic, and this one is predictably interesting:



John Keillor said:


> Performers of the quartet are instructed to inflect the sound of the instrument as little as possible: no vibrato and little weight on the bow. The members of the violin family sound more like viols with these restrictions. The general soundscape has an ancient quality. This sound is compounded by a generally consonant set of intervals at a regular tempo, and a looseness of melodic construction. There are no recognizable cadences, and the resulting timeless atmosphere is evocative and mysterious. It has a complex rhythmic structure based on a formula of 2 1/2 - 1 1/2, 2 - 3, 6 - 5, 1/2 - 1 1/2. These numbers add up to 22, which, multiplied by 22 equals 484 bars, the total duration of the string quartet.


Read the rest here.


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## tdc

starthrower said:


> "The responsibility of the artist consists in perfecting his work so that it may become attractively disinteresting" - John Cage


A quote I find not reflective of reality. For one, I don't think an artist can ever technically 'perfect' their work. Secondly I don't think it is an artist's job to tell other artists what their 'responsibility' is, especially someone like Cage who by his own admission did not have 'anything to say' in the musical sense. Why would an artist want to create something that is disinteresting?

With Cage's ideas it seemed like above all else what he was trying to be _was_ interesting. As far as I can tell being interesting to him was more important than creating attractive music. So the quote makes him come across as hypocritical and fake to me.

I listened to the Cage quartet years ago during the TC String Quartet project. I won't be revisiting that work anytime soon. For those that like Cage's music, enjoy!


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## Mandryka

The interesting thing for me is how much if anything of his later style is there in this early piece. This may be partly a performance question. 

I think the score is completely determinate and conventional, like a score by Beethoven. There’s even a programme for it.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Mandryka said:


> The interesting thing for me is how much if anything of his later style is there in this early piece. This may be partly a performance question.
> 
> I think the score is completely determinate and conventional, like a score by Beethoven. There's even a programme for it.


I listened to this piece once (Jack Quartet) and was mesmerized by it. It came as a total surprise. I am looking forward to come back to it. "Disinterested" is a very good term, in no ways negative in this case.


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## starthrower

tdc said:


> A quote I find not reflective of reality. For one, I don't think an artist can ever technically 'perfect' their work. Secondly I don't think it is an artist's job to tell other artists what their 'responsibility' is, especially someone like Cage who by his own admission did not have 'anything to say' in the musical sense. Why would an artist want to create something that is disinteresting?
> 
> With Cage's ideas it seemed like above all else what he was trying to be _was_ interesting. As far as I can tell being interesting to him was more important than creating attractive music. So the quote makes him come across as hypocritical and fake to me.
> 
> I listened to the Cage quartet years ago during the TC String Quartet project. I won't be revisiting that work anytime soon. For those that like Cage's music, enjoy!


I don't know from what source the quote was lifted? And I assume Cage was speaking for himself. I merely pasted it because it struck me as ironic after reading Merl's post. For me it simply means to listen without thinking too much. I don't have to infer a message or a meaning, or think about ideas, I just listen to the sound of the music.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I don't know from what source the quote was lifted? And I assume Cage was speaking for himself. I merely pasted it because* it struck me as ironic after reading Merl's post*. For me it simply means to listen without thinking too much. I don't have to infer a message or a meaning, or think about ideas, I just listen to the sound of the music.


All I said was....



Merl said:


> I've never heard this one so this should be interesting.


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## starthrower

What don't you get, Merl? Interesting/ disinteresting. Nothing more than that. It's just a simple coincidence.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> What don't you get, Merl? Interesting/ disinteresting. Nothing more than that. It's just a simple coincidence.


Oh right. Soz ST. I thought you were saying summat else. Apologies, I've had a crap day at work.


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## Mandryka

The quartet has always struck me as un-cagean because it has sounded wilful - you can sense that there are big memorable events placed by the composer. This is perfectly nice to listen to, but for me doesn’t mesh well with the mature Cage’s ideas about music. 

One performance which I think is a bit less wilful than the rest is The New Music Quartet. I very much like Arditti for the intonation and concentration. And many others are fine. But for me there’s something sympathetic going on with The New Music Quartet. They may have created the music in fact, I don’t know.


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## starthrower

Anyhow, I like this one even though it's not representative of his later work. It fits my mood as I dig in for the long winter. The short finale notwithstanding.


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## Merl

I've listened to this quartet at least 3 times tonight, in the hands of different quartets. I won't comment on those particular ensembles at the moment as I will be reviewing this. What has surprised me is how much this piece has grabbed me. Ignoring the arty hogwash that goes along with it, and listening to it as a piece of music, I'm struck by its graceful and ancient feel. It almost, at times, feels like time is standing still and imparts a very serene feeling inside me. At first I wasn't sure how I felt about this one however, on subsequent listens, I'm really gravitating towards the strange collection of chords, melody and vibratoless notes that make up the first two movements, in particular. If I have one criticism then the 3rd rather restrained movement overstays its welcome a little and, I feel, would have been more effective at a slightly more limited length. That final movement is a bizarre jolt, sounding like some demented, short, medieval dance. Yes, I'll definitely be coming back to this over the next few days to check out the other recordings. It's an intriguing piece of work, perfect for a dark, cold, winter night in Scotland. 

Edit; I just read ST's post above after posting my comments and found it strange that we both mentioned moods and the winter. Perhaps it's just struck the same chord with us.


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## SearsPoncho

The Cage was not what I was expecting at all. I found most of it appealing in its own way. The static or slow-moving changes in texture, timbre and harmony reminded me of prime Ligeti, but these elements created a mesmerizing effect. I'm usually not the biggest fan of vibrato-less string playing, but it gives the work an interesting, hypnotic quality for the first 2 movements and most of the 3rd. Kind of a Zen Buddhism, meditation vibe going on. I also found the 3rd movement went on a bit too long for me. Odd finale. Interesting stuff. I'm glad I heard it. Perhaps this is representative of his pre-mushroom style.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

SearsPoncho said:


> Kind of a Zen Buddhism, meditation vibe going on. I also found the 3rd movement went on a bit too long for me. Odd finale. Interesting stuff. I'm glad I heard it. Perhaps this is representative of his pre-mushroom style.


Not Buddhism, but eastern all the same. The quartet supposedly represents the 9 indian emotions or something or other. If you liked this style of music then you should listen to the Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano, which is representative of a similar type of composing.


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## Bwv 1080

At first listen it sounds minimalist and contemporary to me - but so does his prepared piano music. Have not read much on it, but guessing Cage’s pre-aelotoric music, along with Lou Harrison (whom I believe this is dedicated to) are not fully appreciated for their influence on the next generation of Riley, Reich et al?


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## SearsPoncho

Bwv 1080 said:


> At first listen it sounds minimalist and contemporary to me - but so does his prepared piano music. Have not read much on it, but guessing Cage's pre-aelotoric music, along with Lou Harrison (whom I believe this is dedicated to) are not fully appreciated for their influence on the next generation of Riley, Reich et al?


Yes! With the exception of the Finale, I was also thinking minimalism, but I don't listen to enough minimalism to feel sufficiently qualified to discuss it.


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## Kreisler jr

This is probably the only piece by Cage I have on disc (although I have not checked all possible mixed anthologies), the LaSalle on DG (with Lutoslawski, Penderecki, Mayuzumi). Not sure if I listened to it more than once before. After one go just now, it's too "minimalist" for my taste. I like the first and last movements that have a bit of an Ivesian feel with "accidentally overlapping" tunes but the first three movements together, especially 2+3 are too similar for me. The descriptions are quite true "Quietly flowing along", "Slowly rocking", "Nearly stationary".


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## Knorf

It's definitely not inappropriate to hear in at least some of Cage's music antecedents to what would later be called minimalism. (After all, what piece could be more "minimalistic" than Cage's _4'33"_?)

In this String Quartet in Four Parts, there are a number of elements that are typically associated with classic minimalism:
A generally restricted or simplified diatonic/modal scale structure for almost all melody and harmony.
A relatively slow harmonic rhythm, with chords changes that generally are cyclical and/or non-progressive, and usually are based around major and minor thirds rather than perfect fifths.
Relatively simple rhythmic repetition, often presented via rotating modules of repeated rhythms, with or without a gradual but persistent change (e.g. Reich=usually with, Glass=often without).
The eschewing of Classical or Romantic expressive or dramatic tropes.
A musical form based on simple repetitions, often continuously (but slowly) developed, featuring straightforward blocks of material, often of a texture that is usually at least imitative, or more strictly canonic.
As many have noted, this quartet evokes early music as well, another aspect it has in common with works by some of the classic minimalists, Steve Reich especially, albeit for different reasons. Cage also explicitly evoked the sound of viols in this quartet, especially with the instruction for the stringed instruments to do without vibrato.

I'm not surprised that some listeners were taken aback by this quartet's calm, gentle, even warm and tranquil quality, expecting something much more untraditional at least on the surface. Just as Picasso's abstract works came after a long period of fairly conventional portraiture, which many forget about, Cage's most experimental music came after many tentative forays into pretty traditional, sometimes even ancient, musical concepts. But just as hindsight shows us the roots of Picasso's mature style in those early works, the ways in which Cage was swiftly moving away from the Classical/Romantic musical tradition were there, too.

It's worth noting Cage's statement from 1946 that he wished to compose music in order to "sober and quiet the mind, thus rendering it susceptible to divine influences..." It's well known that Cage was already exploring Asian/Eastern philosophies in his personal life, and was keen to realize what he discovered in his compositions. It was Indian philosophy that most influenced this quartet.

Many will see the Quartet in Four Parts as a conservatively expressive piece, because of the diatonic materials and mild (but always unresolved!) dissonance. To me, this piece's esthetic is already notably defiant of tradition, especially defiant of the persistent error that music is about expressing feelings. Cage had already discovered that while music _evokes_ feelings in the listener, it does not inherently _express_ them. This led Cage to focus very intently on the listening experience itself, and all that can be included in the formation of a personal musical experience, which in the end turns out to be literally all possible sounds! Because it is in the experience of the listener that music happens.

N.B. I think John Cage's supposed struggles with harmony and form have been massively overstated, including by him. He famously didn't take well to Schoenberg's traditional pedagogical approach of counterpoint and tonal harmony, but so what? He forged a new path.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I just listened to the LaSalle performance and again really liked the piece. Contrary to some, I particularly liked the third part. There is not better way to empty one's thoughts after a long day by listening to this. Great choice!


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## Knorf

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Contrary to some, I particularly liked the third part. There is not better way to empty one's thoughts after a long day by listening to this.


And thus does Cage achieve the effect he desired.

(And I agree, I really enjoy listening to this quartet, including the third movement, which really has to be that length. Not too long for me.)

A further comment about the fourth movement: it's effectively the material of the first movement, more compactly stated and at a faster tempo. It works for me.


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## Merl

Some great comments here and I listened to this quartet again when I got home (after another hellish day). It really does empty your mind of the stress of a long day. I find it a very calming and cathartic piece and one that I'm e joying more with each listen. Having listened to every performance I could (I think I only missed one) and hearing some twice I've come up with my blog post which I'll post very soon. Tbh though I'd recommend all the recordings I've heard but some are much more interesting than others.

Edit: just blogged it.

Cage SQ


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## Allegro Con Brio

I won't comment much on this one as this kind of minimalist style is really not to my liking, but I do appreciate the subtle, slowly-metamorphosizing soundscapes that Cage creates, like watching a time-lapse of water droplets accumulating on flower petals (the LaSalle cover on their album that also includes the Lutoslawski quartet, which is of a similar concept, illustrates this well) or like meditating in a Japanese garden. This combined with, as others have mentioned, the influences from Renaissance polyphony and instrumental dances (especially the short finale) make for an effective work even if I really can't dig its aesthetic, as is my reaction to all such "New Age" music.


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## Carmina Banana

I am enjoying this week's selection. Like others, I am mostly blissing out to it. I have read about the background of this piece, but I feel like anytime we are talking Cage, we should also be reading about his philosophy. And maybe also studying up on mushrooms.
Thanks for Knorf for a nice breakdown of minimalism, etc. 
My first thought was not minimalism--I would never mistake it stylistically for Reich and Glass and their ilk--but I do think in general terms there is a connection. It is music that causes us to hear in a different manner than we are used to. Specifically, we need to give up our preconception that music must express personal human emotions. Knorf's analogy is an apt one; Picasso asked us to consider that maybe visual art doesn't need to representational. Cage seemed to be saying equally important with music. Maybe sounds can just exist and not be created by an individual with grandiose feelings to express. This leads naturally to our other common preconception: if the artist did not employ a hard-won skill in its creation, then the work can't be worth much. That is another can of worms, I suppose. 
Anyway, getting back to minimalism, my main exposure to Cage as a teenager was the album Jan Steele/John Cage Voices and Insturments and was produced by Brian Eno. Not that far from the whole minimalism vibe.


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## Knorf

Re: minimalism.

During my doctoral studies, I took a terrific graduate seminar on "Minimalism in Music." Among the things we discovered is that nailing down exactly what minimalism in music is, is much harder than you might think.

This John Cage String Quartet in Four Parts is not a piece I would label as minimalist overall, certainly not in the traditional notion of what that is. But I think it is undeniable that many of the tropes of what is usually called minimalism are there, even if the work as a whole isn't really minimalist.

Also undeniable: John Cage had a significant influence on what was to become minimalism in music.

By the way, "New Age" music is really _not_ minimalist, generally speaking, although it sometimes steals sounds from it. The minimalist philosophy has essentially nothing to do with "easy listening," except inadvertently, even though most minimalists were reacting against what they saw as the excesses of serialism.

ETA: yes, I am drawing a distinction between Cage's music to "sober and quiet the mind, thus rendering it susceptible to divine influences..." and "New Age," just as I would draw a distinction between actual Buddhism and a shyster peddling crystals and glurgy self-help books. Minimalism, at its best, challenges. New Age indulges.


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## StevehamNY

I remember the day in 1992 when John Cage died, and how my local NPR station played his music for the entirety of that day. The Picasso comparison seems apt, because he really did seem to know the conventional rules very well before he commenced breaking them.

(And yes, the radio station did play a recording of 4:33 that day, which as you know is _not _four and a half minutes of silence but rather four and a half minutes of the ambient sound in the environment in which it's played. A vital difference.)

Anyway, a quick survey of the album covers for this week's quartet produces an unsurprising crop of avant garde art to go along with the avant garde music:









Or, alternately, the "vague material" approach, here featuring molten metal (?) followed by raw cookie dough (?) followed by a foggy gray wash that is actually my favorite out of all the covers:









But I speak too soon, because here's one more contender! Apparently, if you choose to include this Cage quartet with Vivaldi's Four Seasons, the natural choice for cover art is a pair of brightly decorated rain boots?









This is from the Baroque Orchestra B'Rock (?), and it's packaged in a way I've never seen before. You get two separate CDs in this box, one arranged with all of the Vivaldi tracks first and then the Cage, and then the second CD has the first Vivaldi season, then the first Cage movement, then back to Vivaldi the second season, then back to Cage, and so on. (Not sure you even need this kind of thing anymore, what with programmable CD players and most things ripped/downloaded anyway, but why not?)

It's already been noted here that, because of the way it's played, there's a certain "ancient quality" to this piece. So what do you think? Is Vivaldi and Cage a match made in heaven?


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## FastkeinBrahms

I think the key to the last cover are the mushrooms on the wellingtons. On closer look, are they poppies? Anyway, another very entertaining post of album covers.


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## Merl

Agreed that the 'vague material' approach is fairly common in quartets of such repertoire. The 'quartet walking across a beach /down the street' approach would seem out of step (sorry for that pun) here as would the "quartet posing with their instruments' style. Landscapes of regional significance or romantic art are also out of the equation so its either surrealist / minimalist art or close-up of ball-bearings, bicycle chains or industrial equipment that would seem an obvious choice (but there's a fair spread here) .


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Agreed that the 'vague material' approach is fairly common in quartets of such repertoire. The 'quartet walking across a beach /down the street' approach would seem out of step (sorry for that pun) here as would the "quartet posing with their instruments' style. Landscapes of regional significance or romantic art are also out of the equation so its either surrealist / minimalist art or close-up of ball-bearings, bicycle chains or industrial equipment that would seem an obvious choice (but there's a fair spread here) .


As you say, Merl, although you remind me that the Jack Quartet did have a fairly straightforward "brooding boy band" kind of shot:









But much more interesting is the photo I stumbled upon in my search, here of the very same quartet jumping into the air to spell JACK:









(Yes, they're _jumping jacks_! That's the easiest joke ever. The more important question is, has any other string quartet in history managed to spell their name this way? Somehow I doubt, for instance, that the Chilingirians are up to it...)


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## Malx

After a week wrestling with this piece and truthfully struggling to get a handle on it I tried the LaSalle Quartets recording and there it was a ***** of light shining that suggested I was finally hearing something that had some appeal. However, and it is a big however, I still feel the third movement could be half its length and maybe even give over some time to the finale to create, for me what would be a nice balance - probably heresy for most listeners but just how I hear it.
As is usual for me I haven't read anything about the piece to understand what he was trying to do - I like to arrive at my own conclusions first. I will now read up on the work.

What I have found interesting this week is the fact that at times I wanted to give up on this work but there was obviously something niggling away somewhere in my head saying persevere - finding the right recording for me helped.

An interesting week, so thanks for the choice.


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## Carmina Banana

Knorf said:


> Re: minimalism.
> 
> During my doctoral studies, I took a terrific graduate seminar on "Minimalism in Music." Among the things we discovered is that nailing down exactly what minimalism in music is, is much harder than you might think.
> 
> This John Cage String Quartet in Four Parts is not a piece I would label as minimalist overall, certainly not in the traditional notion of what that is. But I think it is undeniable that many of the tropes of what is usually called minimalism are there, even if the work as a whole isn't really minimalist.
> 
> Also undeniable: John Cage had a significant influence on what was to become minimalism in music.
> 
> By the way, "New Age" music is really _not_ minimalist, generally speaking, although it sometimes steals sounds from it. The minimalist philosophy has essentially nothing to do with "easy listening," except inadvertently, even though most minimalists were reacting against what they saw as the excesses of serialism.
> 
> ETA: yes, I am drawing a distinction between Cage's music to "sober and quiet the mind, thus rendering it susceptible to divine influences..." and "New Age," just as I would draw a distinction between actual Buddhism and a shyster peddling crystals and glurgy self-help books. Minimalism, at its best, challenges. New Age indulges.


This reminds me of a class I took in which the professor asked for a definition of minimalism. I gave what I thought was a reasonable description. "Hm. Say that again." Flustered, I start to reword my definition. "No, say it like you did before." I did as he said. "OK, now say it again." By the third or fourth time I realized what was going on.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday and so, before I get round to having any fun, here's this:_

Cage was a composer who famously wrote a piece of silence that has, more or less, become the most important thing he ever did, and the start and finish of most people's interest in him. And, by "most people", I should probably include myself.

That wasn't a great start to a week of listening, so I limbered up with some preparatory exercises, sauntering through Reich and Glass, in the hope I might recognise minimalism if I met any, and Satie and Webern. And then the contemporaries. In 1949/50, Shostakovich was being Shostakovich, Malipiero was straying from his renaissance panels, Myaskovsky was churning out his best work in the medium and Ligeti seems to have discovered Vaughan Williams. And then there are the Goldbergs, which contain the only other quodlibet I could call to mind, and it's always nice to have an excuse to give them an outing.

At the end of all that, I sat down to listen to the Cage.

If I'm honest, and I've no reason not to be except for dramatic effect, I'd already listened to it a few times. I'm an inveterate peeker who can't pass a locked door without wondering, and spend more time than I ought walking about my neighbourhood, seeking out those places that go blurry on Google Maps in the hope that, one day, it'll turn out to be a National Secret rather than an algorithmic belch. It's probably not the hope my parents urged me to live in but, for the moment, it's the best I've got.

Cage's own notes on the piece appear on his website, so I looked at those, and they told me next to nothing, except that Cage played some complicated number game with the timings, that may or may not make some sort of geometric or cabbalistic sense to those with an interest (I have none to declare). But, of course, they got me wondering, as much as any door marked 'private', about why he wrote it. A commission, sure, but why approach it this way? Why construct this sort of grid at all? Is it the sign of a lack of inspiration or a surfeit of imagination or too much cheese before bed or just a habit he'd fallen into*?

Perhaps Satie is a guide here. As far as I can tell, Satie spent most of his time living out of a cheap rented room, earning a crust as a cabaret pianist, and rubbing shoulders with Les Six and their playmates when he could find the time or they'd let him in. He drunk too much, dressed eccentrically and gave himself a pulpit by setting up a church for himself, which may or may not have had any followers. On the face of it, he had great fun in his spare time, churning out compositions with strange titles and vexatious instructions and, from this point of history, he seems a wilful genius with a mind of his own.

But he also reminds me of Van Gogh, who seems to have been a lonely, angry outsider who didn't make much money, and could only hope, in his lifetime, to cling to the fringes, while making his art something different. Cage, by the time he wrote this, was a recognised composer who could, from time to time, hold down a respectable teaching job, as well as gain commissions. But it was a success that barely brought in enough money to survive, let alone keep up with his peers. Nor, perhaps, was it enough to sustain his marriage, which broke down, though there may have been other reasons for that. Happily, he began a more enduring relationship soon after, but one of a sort that the America of the time didn't universally welcome. It's possible that Cage's dislike of institutions, despite his reliance on them for employment, dates from this time.

It's worth being cautious, though. GK Chesterton observed, now famously, that it's the poor who rely on governments and institutions, the rich, with their yachts, can always find safe harbour somewhere else, and Cage's 'anarchism', which he declared much later, from a position of greater security, may be more of that flavour than he'd like to admit. But the overall impression I have of Cage isn't so much of a composer or a performer or a film-maker or even an artist. Cage is a philosopher, an assembler of thoughts. His medium was, mostly, music, which he described as a 'purposeless play', but we know it isn't purposeless, though we can't always describe what that purpose is. Or, if we can, it only makes sense to ourselves.

Listening to this quartet, especially in the light of the Webern Symphony that affected Cage so deeply, it seems to be an extended sequence of fragments that each conjure up echoes of past and future works, from plainchant to Messiaen, that I happen to be half-familiar with. I'm reminded of how others in this thread have lost themselves in it, and that rings a few bells, though they're doubtless different bells for each of us. And, in philosophical mood, I ponder whether Satie and Van Gogh didn't use their arts as hiding places, in which to escape their isolation, and whether Cage wasn't up to the same thing.

Other than that, though, I can't say I care for it very much. It's important to ponder, but there are limits. And it is possible for too much philosophising to ultimately subvert the purpose. Only yesterday, having noticed my newish wooden spoon was already betraying my handedness, I tried to work out how many spoons I must have eaten and, while distracted, singed my lentils. Though this quartet holds my attention well, for the most part, I can't get through "Almost Stationary" before my mind goes wandering like a sheep on a hillside and, though that might be the point, it makes it a hard piece to like.

*_ Cage's "Lecture on Nothing", which was written around the same time, answers this as well as anything, I'm not sure it's out of copyright, though, so won't link to it, but search engines can help if you've the appetite and patience for this sort of thing (or just curiosity). Otherwise, here's a more digestible review of a performance: _https://www.fib.no/en/articles/a-lecture-on-nothing/


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## Carmina Banana

Reading John Cage is often frustrating. It seems like his making a point and then he immediately contradicts it. For example, he claimed to be obsessed with Zen. But never meditated. Instead of reading an assigned book in school, he went to the library and read the first book by an author whose name began with Z. He got the best grade in the class. Then he dropped out because obviously the school didn't know what it was doing. 
I am reminded of one of the authors Cage admired, Krishnamurti. What I remember from reading Krishnamurti was seekers of truth traveling many miles to ask him the meaning of life. His answer was always something like, asking me this question just shows how far you are from finding the truth. In a way, John Cage seems to saying the same thing. He deflects our intention of treating him as the artist. 
I thought about this as I listened to the third and fourth movements. Did this come from the same composer? Who cares? It is all sound; all music. Maybe it is better to think of Cage as a curator rather than composer.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all.
I listened to the quartet once with (jumping) JACK and it quietly lay in the air, while I did this and that. I think it was 19 minutes, with some silence


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's pick goes to our thread starter, *Vicente*. Here's the order for our next round:

Vicente
Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1080
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Helgi
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Have I been cut out?


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## Allegro Con Brio

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Have I been cut out?


Of course not! An unfortunate mistake, sorry about that


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## Merl

Poor Vicente.

Lol, I posted the wrong meme for Vicente before. Oh well, we all make mistakes (said the Dalek climbing off the dustbin). Here's the proper one.....


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## Kreisler jr

Am I confused or is this a joke? The Cage was allaroundmusicenthusiast's turn, wasn't it?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

No! I was just saying that in ACB's original list for the next round I didn't show up at the bottom.


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## Vicente

For next week my proposal is *Arenski First String Quartet*.
Hope you enjoy it.


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## Merl

Vicente said:


> For next week my proposal is *Arenski First String Quartet*.
> Hope you enjoy it.


Am I right in thinking there's only 2 recordings of this, Vicente (Ying and Lajtha)?


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## Vicente

Merl said:


> Am I right in thinking there's only 2 recordings of this, Vicente (Ying and Lajtha)?


Yes, you are right.


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## Merl

Nice pick, Vicente. We had Arensky's excellent 2nd quartet a bit ago. This one is also impressive on first listen and I particularly like the Variations on a Russian Theme finale. I'll give this some welly over the week to see if it impresses even further but its all positive up to now. Interesting quartet. Thanks V. At least my blog review will be simple. Lol


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## Snowbrain

Bwv 1080 said:


> I happen to think Volkov's portrait was accurate even if some of the details were sketchy. Hard to believe Dsch lived through the Great Terror as close as he was to it, without it having an impact on the work
> 
> He 8th SQ is not just a piece of absolute music that can be listened to like Bach


Been reading through last year's discussion around DSCH's 8th quartet and wanted to jump in here (if anyone is still following/interested)...

It's curious to me that many of the opinions posted about composers and their works here seem to lack much background knowledge of the composer and the times s/he lived in. In the case of DSCH, there's no way you can understand his music without reading a number of books about his life and times. The 8th quartet is _absolutely autobiographical_, a snapshot of a tortured soul living under extreme social and political tyranny. Unless you understand the conditions in which a composer has lived and created his art, you can't say you truly understand what the composer is saying. I didn't say "you can't like or not like" the work of art, but understanding only comes with knowledge, and if you just listen to Shostakovich (DSCH) without learning about his life, you won't understand what his music is saying, why in his case so much of his music has such a tragic-satiric feeling.

DSCH is a controversial figure because of how he was for so long misunderstood in the West as being a "good communist" when in fact, he was a secret anti-communist dissident broadcasting his rage against the Soviet machine through his many genius works. There's a huge literature on just how to interpret who he was, what he wrote, the meaning of his works, etc., but over the past few decades since Solomon Volkov's book _Testimony _was published, the tussle over who this man was in reality is clear - he's the kind of person painted in Volkov's book. Three other books worth reading are:

Elizabeth Wilson's _Shostakovich, A Life Remembered _- interviews with people who knew DSCH
Ian MacDonald's, _The New Shostakovich _- excellent follow up to the portrait of DSCH given in Volkov's book
Ho and Feofanov's, _Shostakovich Reconsidered _- summary of research on DSCH's life and times which support Volkov

READ PEOPLE READ!


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## Merl

Snowbrain, whilst I totally understand where you're coming from (and I wish I had the time to attain your knowledge of Shostie's quartets) this particular thread was started by Vicente regarding listening to recordings initially. Obviously, as it has evolved, people who have a keen interest in a particular Weekly quartet or composer have expanded these discussions with additional background on meaning and life details, etc and this has been really useful and interesting too but at the end of the day it comes down to your emotional response to the music. Is it necessary to know that composer x wrote this whilst he was recovering from brain surgery or interned in a POW camp? I agree with you, yes it's useful and often fascinating, but we only have a week to listen and take in as much as possible. Obviously you have a deep knowledge of Shostakovich and your input would be invaluable in weeks when we do have a Shostakovich quartet (we can't be far away from another one being nominated, can we?). This is Vicente's opening comments when the thread started, btw.... .


> This activity idea is to deepen in the knowledge of a particular opus during a whole week.
> 
> My personal experience is that when I listen a composition several times, my enjoyment experience grows. During every listening experience I take into account new details, begin to "learn" melodies or themes, how they repeat during the opus development, what effect do they produce in my emotions. That sort of things.
> 
> We can listen two or three different versions of the same composition and look for the different approach, what's your perspective of the different interpretations?
> 
> Those sorts of things cannot be attained the first time you listen, that's why I proposed the activity.


This has been a hugely successful thread on TC and it continues to evolve. I hope that you can share your knowledge and expertise with us as the thread continues to gather steam.


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## annaw

I am going to jump in real quick. I think when it comes to listening to pure music which doesn't have a programme, any assumption about what it is meant to convey is extremely ambiguous. That is the case even when it comes to genres like opera - I doubt anyone could figure out the actual meaning behind Wagner's _Lohengrin_ without having read what Wagner himself wrote about it (it's really not obvious at all). I think that the whole background system and cultural atmosphere is extremely fascinating and helps to understand the score and the piece but I am hesitant to say that it should play any role when it comes to assessing interpretations as such. Insofar I agree with Merl that focusing on potential meanings of such music while trying to assess recordings might get one to rather interesting results because all of us have very different understandings of what the work in that case is _supposed_ to communicate. If we listened like that, I might end up dismissing stellar recordings just because, according to my interpretation, a specific passage should sound gloomier or happier than it does.

However, I am always fascinated to hear about the background of composers when people are willing to share (I could talk _ad nauseam_ about Wagner but that is kind of off-topic in this thread). In fact, I just recently heard a concert of one of Gubaidulina's orchestral works and it was very nice to have some background knowledge about her that I gained when we were listening to her string quartet here - I felt so smart :lol:.


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## Carmina Banana

We have been on this merry-go-round a few times, but I do think it is a fun ride.
Many of us, I think, have the opinion that a work music "stand on its own" and not require any understanding of background, etc. 
Nevertheless, many of us do read up on a work in the limited time available--I don't think many of us will get through several books on a composer and then comment during the course of a week. We are more likely to start with wikipedia and maybe skim through a journal article if our interest is piqued. 
Not to straddle the fence, but I think our initial gut reaction to a work is extremely valid, but researching the background is also important. It is not an all-or-nothing situation. Our understanding of music should evolve during our life as a listener and each stage is valid. We might have an attraction to a composer and strive to understand more and more about him or her but we should also realize that our understanding will always be colored, for better or worse, by our own experiences. 
When I was a teenager I loved Chopin. I had what I thought were very deep feelings about his music. One day, my teacher a Polish immigrant was feeling very troubled about the situation back home (this was in the 1980s). He sat down to correct something I was doing wrong in a Chopin nocturne and kept playing. And playing. He played through several pieces and I began to realize that the music on the page in front of us meant something very different to the two of us. Even though, I loved Chopin, I would never have the same relationship with it that my teacher did. 
OK. Since I am telling stories, here is maybe the flip side. I was working with a French choreographer who wanted to use a recording of a certain piece by a 19th century French composer. I suggested a couple that I thought were excellent. Oh no, he said, it must be a French performer. Nobody else could do the piece justice. 
This attitude still bothers me. Music should be available to all participants, both performers and listeners. If I continued, this could get much more hotly political, so I will stop there. 
As for Arensky, I am really enjoying my first listen, but in light of this, I will also crack the books and try to understand more about him as a person (or, if I don't get to it, there is always the Burbage Friday post...).


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## Snowbrain

Dear Merl, annaw, and Carmina Banana, thanks for your replies. I'm sorry but I just spent two hours (yes, I'm retired) composing a reply, watching it auto-save my typing and when I went to post it, everything disappeared and I was in some limbo state of having been logged out or something. I'm currently trying to recover what I wrote because it was a lot and I worked hard. But it's probably gone for good so I don't know if/when I make another attempt. 

Sorry! As you can tell, I'm a TC newbie and am still getting used to things. I appreciate your replies and I'll try again later.


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## SearsPoncho

Vicente said:


> For next week my proposal is *Arenski First String Quartet*.
> Hope you enjoy it.


Please remember that this is *Vicente's week.*


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Ying's recording. I enjoyed the quartet. It was good to hear that, for once, somebody in the 19th century did not see the main purpose of a string quartet in the continuation of Beethoven by other means. The last movement is unashamedly Russian. I liked the long continued monochrome notes, very rustic, but in a good way. However, I must say I did not enjoy the Ying's playing. They just overdo the portamenti especially in the slow movement. That adds an unnecessary dose of schmaltz.


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## Merl

Snowbrain said:


> Dear Merl, annaw, and Carmina Banana, thanks for your replies. I'm sorry but I just spent two hours (yes, I'm retired) composing a reply, watching it auto-save my typing and when I went to post it, everything disappeared and I was in some limbo state of having been logged out or something. I'm currently trying to recover what I wrote because it was a lot and I worked hard. But it's probably gone for good so I don't know if/when I make another attempt.
> 
> Sorry! As you can tell, I'm a TC newbie and am still getting used to things. I appreciate your replies and I'll try again later.


Nps, Snowbrain. We've all done one of those long-winded replies only to lose the lot. So annoying isn't it? Welcome to TC and to this thread. If you like SQs then have a listen to this week's. It may not be Shosty but I'm sure you'll find something in it.


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## SearsPoncho

Thank you, Vicente, for a fine addition to the thread which you started. My initial impressions? This was a nice, quick breath of fresh air which I enjoyed. Despite Arensky's Russian resume, which includes having Rimsky-Korsakov as a mentor and teaching at the Moscow Conservatory, much of what I heard sounded like it could have come straight outta Vienna (I hear this will be the title of N.W.A.'s next release). It was quite Haydnesque, with its tasteful balance of instruments and polyphony, as well as an enjoyable collective resonance in the harmonies and chords. Interestingly enough, the finale, Variations on a Russian Theme, reminded me of a non-Russian composer's quartet which contained a finale on a Russian theme. You may have heard of him. 

The recording I listened to was by the Lajtha Quartet on Naxos. 

I look forward to hearing it again, when I'm sure I will be able to discern the Russian and romantic elements more easily.


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## Merl

FastkeinBrahms said:


> I listened to the Ying's recording. I enjoyed the quartet. It was good to hear that, for once, somebody in the 19th century did not see the main purpose of a string quartet in the continuation of Beethoven by other means. The last movement is unashamedly Russian. I liked the long continued monochrome notes, very rustic, but in a good way. However, I must say I did not enjoy the Ying's playing. They just overdo the portamenti especially in the slow movement. That adds an unnecessary dose of schmaltz.


This was what marred the Ying's account of the 2nd quartet, too, for me. Whilst, technically, they can play this quartet very capably, interpretively they can come over as being a bit fussy and mannered and there are a few pronounced slides and changes of dynamics that really don't come off at all and stick out like an ashtray on a dinghy. However, they are recorded beautifully and much better than the Lajtha Quartet, who play this quartet with less fuss and nice warmth. I'll have another few listens before I decide who I prefer here.


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## Kreisler jr

It's an interesting piece. It seems a more early than late 19th century to me in some respects: Brief, classicist, very virtuosic, in parts almost concertante first violin and the bits of exoticism (finale and andante) within a classicist framework. (I only heard the Ying Q recording on Youtube.) I have to admit that I found the more famous a minor quartet by Arensky we had some time ago, a much more gripping and original piece, though.


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## Merl

After several plays I'm left with the same feeling about this piece. It's pleasant but the first two movements seem to shuffle by without getting me involved. I much prefer the 3rd and 4th movements but even then its nowhere near as strong as his 2nd quartet (which I really enjoyed). Of the two recordings I tend to prefer the Ying for sound quality and commitment but neither are ideal. As stated earlier the Ying have some unnecessary quirks such as pointless slides and mannered phrasing but they do get better as the performance goes on and the finale is better than the Lajtha quartet, who are warm and inviting but never really get this one off the ground for me.

Btw, I've just done a massive blog review of the Beethoven op.132 after listening to 95‰ of the 10 billion recordings available. What a bloody marathon. I'm now ready for someone picking it in the coming weeks (bet they don't). Lol. The number of recordings of some of the Beethoven quartets is ridiculous.


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## Carmina Banana

Delightful listening this week.
A couple quick comments:
This first movement is reminding me of Tchaik's Serenade for Strings. There are a couple of licks in there plus the whole maybe not neoclassical, but backward-looking feel to it. 
The last movement is a perfect piece to satisfy that demand for a Russian folksy movement so he could stay in the good graces of the nationalistic types. I wonder if Arensky's failing might be that he was very good at writing to please others but never really found his own groove. 
The Ying quartet. Yes, the second movement is lovely but so old-fashioned sounding. I don't know why it is that some pieces need a little slide and sound just right but if it goes even slightly over it sounds like...all I can think of is Merl's expression "an ashtray in a dinghy." It makes no sense to me, but bull in a china shop doesn't quite work either. Anyway, I like this quartet and I love the idea of family music making (apparently they are all siblings).


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> ..... I don't know why it is that some pieces need a little slide and sound just right but if it goes even slightly over it sounds like...all I can think of is *Merl's expression "an ashtray in a dinghy."* It makes no sense to me, but bull in a china shop doesn't quite work either. Anyway, I like this quartet and I love the idea of family music making (apparently they are all siblings).


I mean by this "is it necessary?". What's the point of having an ashtray in a dinghy when a) You're surrounded by water B) you're likely to burn a hole in the dinghy. Could these exaggerated slides just be an unnecessary ornament and pointless waste of time?


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## Bwv 1080

FWIW, posted this in the theory section, but there is a cool anecdote about Rachmaninoff & Arensky at around the 8:10 mark






have not got around to listening to the quartet yet, but hopefully will today


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## Carmina Banana

Bwv 1080 said:


> FWIW, posted this in the theory section, but there is a cool anecdote about Rachmaninoff & Arensky at around the 8:10 mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> have not got around to listening to the quartet yet, but hopefully will today


I recently discovered that my old friend the I6/4 chord is now the V6/4 chord. Still trying to wrap my head around that one. Yes, there is a certain arbitrariness to functional analysis at times. I can picture a situation in which Rachmaninov, who always took the scenic route when going from one chord to another (hey let's stop by B7 on our way) could elude a Roman numeral or two. I think I read he was Arensky's student, BTW? I think there is point when a chord even in a tonal context is really only color. Debussy is a good example. Yet, I suppose a good Schenkerian could assign a number to anything.
His description of the Russian conservatory scene fits with accounts of Shostakovich's education. He recalled how they were required to improvise modulations worthy of Chopin. 
I am always intrigued by this conflict between traditional classical music education and the folk tradition in Russia. 
Arensky was a product of the conservatory system, but in both of these quartets he makes his Russian roots very clear.


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## Malx

Having now listened to the two available recordings of this weeks quartet - Arensky's No1 - a few times each I have come to the conclusion that Arensky has created a work that rather reminds of a quartet sitting playing in the corner of a ballroom in a grand Victorian mansion with a few palm trees as the backdrop with a number of worthy society people milling about eating and chatting away. Thats just how my minds eye sees the piece - that is not to say it is not a decent work but it doesn't really stand out from the crowd. I'm no expert and couldn't write a quartet if my life depended on it, but it seems well enough put together the movements have a nice feel and sound to them but is there that spark that makes a quartet special - sorry not for me.

Having no technical musical background I have to trust my ears and my ears suggest to me that Arensky's second quartet - that we listened to on the thread earlier this year - especially in the version using two cellos is the more enjoyable work.

Of the two recordings I favoured the Lajtha simply because I felt they were playing what Arensky wanted (as far as I can tell) - were the Yings trying to make it something spicier? I'm not sure but little details, the slides that others have referred to for example suggest they may have been trying too hard.

In an ideal world the Lajtha quartet with the Yings sound quality would work best for me - as is always the case thanks for the pick Vicente. Whilst this is not a quartet I will rush to add to my collection it is great to hear, new to me, quartets.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, so I should be all up to speed with this, but I've spent the morning being boosted, so I'm not. Despite that..._

We started this week with a brief discussion that, I guess, centred on how much a composer intended to mean by what they wrote, if they intended it at all, and, how much of that meaning, should it exist, is trammelled or influenced or perverted or otherwise held captive by the personal, emotional, political, romantic, medical and pharmaceutical circumstances in which they live.

For each of the last eighty-odd quartets (though not always in digital print), I have wondered why they were written, in the widest sense applicable. Though I don't overlook the meaner reasons. Sometimes there is a request from a friend, an actual commission, a shortage of paper, an irksome sense of rivalry or a desperate inkling that a quartet might sell. Some are more in the way of academic exercises, whether as student projects, demonstration pieces, sketches for future work or ways to try out an idea. And some quartets, such as Sibelius', may have simply been written to pass the time. Which, in a sense, could be said for all of them.

Reasons are not the same as inspirations, though. And though we can convince ourselves we might understand some of those by diligently rifling through the newspapers, letters and tram tickets of the time and place in question, there's really no telling, beyond the music itself. Which is as it should be, surely. Music is, after all, a form of communication and so should tell us all we need to know, with only a little prior knowledge or exposure.

Or should it?

This week, while pondering all that, I've buried myself in dense academic tracts on the evolution of music, outrageous monographs on the music of different cultures, the existence or otherwise of a 'universal language', the 'harmony of the spheres', non-verbal languages (including those used by humans and animals to communicate with each other), the origins of musicology and a comparative study of stringed instruments. Which is all great fun, but very inconclusive and, for the most part, entirely indifferent to the life and times of Anton Arensky.

But, happily, I was able to do for him just a few weeks ago, so I'm sure it hardly matters. I've given the Ying performance a few listens, but I'm not sure it's added much to my life, and the only think I can say for it is that it's not the second quartet. It has the same sort of feel to it but, as Malx suggests, something a bit twee and eager-to-please. It's pleasant enough, but it's not inspired many ensembles to play or record it and, if I was going to pick a fight with an industry, it wouldn't be over the comparative neglect of Arensky's first quartet.

Last time, I think, the influence of Tchaikovsky was clear, but that's less obvious in this quartet, which is perhaps a helpful reminder that Arensky's other teachers were Taneyev (a skilful forger of many quartets) and Rimsky-Korsakoff (whose reputation lies elsewhere).


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## Allegro Con Brio

With finals, etc. this week whatever free time I had has mostly dissipated, but I will say that I just finished listening to the Ying's recording of the Arensky 1 and really enjoyed it. Not as much as his 2nd (I miss the extra cello!) but it is still a very fine piece of good 'ol fashioned, borderline schmaltzy (not always a bad thing) Russian Romanticism, with lots of Schubertian influences to my ears and some nice, more classical sounding moments like in the minuet to balance out the syrup. I especially like the zesty, folksy finale with its imitations of guitar strumming and village fiddling—rather like Beethoven's "Theme Russe" in I-forgot-which-Razumovsky-quartet.

The pick goes to me next week, and because of time constraints I will most likely (but not 100%...) choose something I have never heard but which I want to explore—probably one of the more well-known ones we haven't done (oh dear, is that giving away too much?)


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## Carmina Banana

Malx, 
I enjoyed your description of the Victorian ballroom. I don’t really see that as a negative, though I suppose we like to imagine classical music as more revered and given undivided attention. Sometimes I forget that the latest Chopin piano opus was immediately played by countless amateurs and half listened to by friends and family members long before it was immortalized by Rubinstein and Horowitz. I suppose if it didn’t appeal in that sense to the public, it didn’t pay the bills.
This brings me back, sort of, to our reaction to the Ying quartet. TwoSetViolin, a Youtube channel I usually avoid because I think they are a little too smart alecky and full of themselves, had a good video about listening to previous generations of musicians. We are often turned off by what we hear as mannerisms and distracting habits that are no longer considered appropriate. And yet, they are the musicians who were contemporaries with the composer!
I realize that the Ying quartet is not a group of oldsters, but their playing in this quartet sounds old-fashioned. Yet, it was probably what one would have heard at the time. 
I guess musical compositions evolve long after their creator has passed on. Or at least, our perception of them changes. Someone once said (I wish I could remember who) that what we hear at a recital is not Beethoven, but a “dream of Beethoven.” 
I believe context is important and I think much of historical performance practice is worth pursuing, but ultimately we like what we like.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> .... The pick goes to me next week, and because of time constraints I will most likely (but not 100%...) choose something I have never heard but which I want to explore-*probably one of the more well-known ones we haven't done* (oh dear, is that giving away too much?)


I think I may be busy. :lol: Tbh, I don't care as I'm nearly finished for Xmas.


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## Allegro Con Brio

For this week I considered the one-off quartets from Chausson and Elgar, composers I have soft spots for, but I couldn't really imagine spending a whole week with them. So I pivoted and moved to a relatively little-performed favorite from a true great whose quartets need way more exposure: *Schumann's String Quartet No. 3 in A Major, Op. 41/3.*

I will provide little commentary. The first time we did a Schumann quartet in this thread 20 months ago, I generally struggled with his music. Since that time I've realized that few composers have grown on me more than him, and he is now in my top 15. His piano suites and song cycles are collections of pearlescent lyric poems organized into heart-wrenchingly convincing narratives, and I savor his music as I do the work of Keats, Shelley, and Wordsworth-sometimes overwrought and indulgent, but always daring, insightful, and often deceptively simple in structure. Schumann was a songwriter at heart, and the human voice is at the core of everything he did. I find this quartet to be extremely similar to one of his song or piano cycles-a continuous arrangement of conflicting ideas and moods that somehow coalesces into a complete kaleidoscopic experience. It's music that alternately soothes, challenges, and excites, but most importantly, it stirs the blood with lovely melodies and raw pathos. Blair Johnston's AllMusic writeup is, as always, a fantastic little read. There appear to be something like 35 recordings, which should give Merl a hearty load of work and pacify him for a while (of course, that's one of the prime factors I take into account when making my selections


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## Merl

Woo, nice choice. I have quite a few of these (picture below) plus the new Emerson, Cherubini, Eroica and Modigliani on the HD. The Zehetmair has always been my go-to here but I'll relisten closely as there's some fine ones.









PS. At least 60 recordings of this and most of the big guns have had a crack at it. Happy listening. Lol


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## sbmonty

Excellent choice. I was listening to Schumann a lot last week. Went through his symphonies, piano concerto, violin sonatas and some lieder. Listened to this quartet no. 3 as well. I own the Eroica, Takács and Zehetmair recordings. 

Good luck with finals ACB!


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## Kreisler jr

Great choice; I like this piece and have a manageable number of recordings (5-6).


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## Merl

Bloody hell, I've just found another 10. 70 recordings... Gulp!


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## Art Rock

I only have the Quatuor Ysaye version (on Aeon), which I played recently (and liked). No clue where it would rank compared to others - maybe I'll know by the end of the week.


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## Bwv 1080

Great choice, Erioica is the way to go here


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

By far the best of the three SQ's Robert wrote


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## Merl

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> By far the best of the three SQ's Robert wrote


I love the 1st too, AAME. Only no.2 is weak for me.


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## FastkeinBrahms

In my Warner Box of early Italiano recordings which I bought recently. I liked it so much that I put it on my list of potential suggestions. Great choice, Allegro con brio!


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## annaw

Yessss, Schumann!! Like Merl, I am a great proponent of the 1st quartet as well but I am generally rather fond of Schumann's compositional language in general. I find it very sweet! I am excited to finally have some time that I can spend on focusing on listening. 

Takacs has been my go-to set for Schumann's string quartets. I am currently listening to their recording of the 3rd and it's really quite enjoyable .


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## Merl

They've done the 3rd twice, Annaw. The newest one on Hyperion sounds like the much better one. I wasn't mad on the Hungaroton recording. A bit broad for me.


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## annaw

Merl said:


> They've done the 3rd twice, Annaw. The newest one on Hyperion sounds like the much better one. I wasn't mad on the Hungaroton recording. A bit broad for me.


How tragic that it of all the possible labels it's Hyperion! Aghh, that's one of the times that streaming services really let you down.
Hungarton definitely doesn't have an equally good sound quality either... I am still fond of the interpretation but I haven't listened to enough recordings to make definite claims.


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## Merl

Considering he rattled the 3rd quartet off in a matter of days it's an incredibly accomplished quartet. Schumann was studying Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven's late quartets (in particular) at the time he wrote it and was reviewing quartets for a music journal. I love that rousing finale and particularly like performances that have a nervy edge in that movement. A few ensembles have more than one recording of this one - Takacs, Italiano, Amadeus and the Emersons and all these did it better 2nd time around, for me. The last recording I got was the Emersons' new one on Pentatone which I rate highly but I've got a lot of listening to do in the coming days and maybe others will impress more. Who knows?


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## BlackAdderLXX

Nice. I only have the Calidore recording, but I'll gladly listen to it again!


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## Merl

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Nice. I only have the Calidore recording, but I'll gladly listen to it again!


That's on my list for tonight. I've listened to bags of them today. Another quartet with a high hit-rate of top class recordings. A couple have catapulted themselves to the top already.


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## Knorf

Apologies for skipping the Arensky. I didn't enjoy his second "two cellos" quartet, so I just decided to take a break from the thread this week. I know I should give it a chance anyway, and probably still will.

The Schumann quartets are wonderful! And No. 3 no less so. I haven't revisited these since we discussed No. 1, so this is very nice. At some point in the past, I would have said No. 3 was my favorite among Op. 41. I'm not sure I still think so, because No. 1 grew so much in my esteem, but maybe. I surely love it, regardless.

ETA: I think No. 3 might still be my favorite. Such a great piece! It's weird to me how underrated these quartets are.


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## Kreisler jr

I think my personal favorite is #1 but #3 is certainly a great piece (and #2 is not bad at all, a slighter piece but very "Schumannian"). I particularly like the 2nd movement of #3, a kind of "scherzo variations". Despite many great scherzo movements I think there was not enough experimentation with that type (and I admittedly am often not the greatest fan of the most frequent replacement, a melancholy intermezzo like that "aimez-vous Brahms?" movement in Brahms 3rd).


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I think my personal favorite is #1 but #3 is certainly a great piece (and #2 is not bad at all, a slighter piece but very "Schumannian"). I particularly like the 2nd movement of #3, a kind of "scherzo variations". Despite many great scherzo movements I think there was not enough experimentation with that type (and I admittedly am often not the greatest fan of the most frequent replacement, a melancholy intermezzo like that "aimez-vous Brahms?" movement in Brahms 3rd).


I slightly prefer #1 to #3 too, Kreisler. #2 is, OK but it's the difficult middle child in the series. Listening to multiple recordings today there's so many different kinds of interpretations of #3. Some of the much older recordings are quite exaggerated in the last movement, placing greater emphasis on the accents at the start of the movement (the Amadeus RIAS is a perfect example of this but their SWR recording is nowhere near as exaggerated). I like that a lot of the post-2000 recordings have took a leaf out of the Melos' book and played in a more 'agitated' way in the 2nd and final movements. This sounds more 'right' to me but it's also fair to say that the Schumann quartets were massively under-represented in the catalogue until the turn of the century so if my final round up looks a bit 'modern' it will be because there have been an explosion of recordings or this repertoire in the past 20 years. One plus to this is the high quality sound of many of the newer recordings.


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## SearsPoncho

Never been a huge Schumann fan; I prefer his chamber music to most of his other output. Having said that, the Fantasy (in C?) for piano is a romantic masterpiece, the Piano Concerto is always pleasing, and I can get into the symphonies with the right advocacy. I still prefer the Piano Quartet, Piano Quintet, and, especially, the Piano Trio in D minor (Op.63).


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## Kreisler jr

Turned out that I apparently have "only" 4 recordings (Cherubini, Hagen, Philharmonia, St. Lawrence) on disc. 
I don't want to get into particulars of these recordings yet but two impressions: For me, this is one of the relatively few pieces where I think the inner movements are superior to first and last (Schumann's 2nd symphony is an even clearer case for me), as said above, the highly original second movement is a particular favorite of mine. 
And the first movement with the confusing indication "allegro molto moderato" and seeming to be a 3/4 "in whole bars" is often played a bit too slowly for my taste.


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## Bwv 1080

Branching out from Erioica and Hagen, listened to Takacs and Modigliani

Takacs was more an old-fashioned big Romantic sound (at least by comparison to the others), perfer a HIPper approach but was nice

Thought Modigliani did a great take, particularly on the slow movement


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## SearsPoncho

ACB: I enjoyed this one. Cherubini Quartet. I also liked the middle movements, especially the Theme and Variations, the most. The initial theme of the opening movement (falling note, repeated note) reminded me of the opening theme to Beethoven's Op. 31, #3 piano sonata. Actually, several moments were Beethoven-esque. The string quartet form might have forced Schumann to be a little more disciplined than usual, and the music was generally more fully realized, both melodically and harmonically, than Schumann usually is. To be honest, the 1st movement was neither here nor there, so to speak, for me. 2nd movement was great! I immediately recognized the Finale; perhaps it was used in a movie, commercial, or as an intro to an NPR show. I saw the Tokyo String Quartet play it about a decade ago and I remember enjoying the performance very much. So, Schumann's chamber music satisfies again.


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## starthrower

I enjoyed the Ebene's live performance on YouTube. I haven't listened to much Schumann over the years, and hardly any chamber music so this is my first time listening to anything other than the piano quintet one time last year. Others here have mentioned a fondness for quartet No.1 so I'll give that a listen and well.


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## Merl

I agree with some recent posters about the 2nd movement (but wouldn't agree that BOTH inner movements are the best). I think the first time I heard this live was at the RNCM about 15 years ago and what gripped me was that excellent set of variations. I love how Schumann changes the pace and the feel of the movement so skilfully. We go from a peaceful oppening to scurrying energy, through a balletic slow dance to that strong, steely and more serious coda. It seems that Schumann takes you on an emotional roller-coaster in one movement!


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## Kreisler jr

I wonder if Beethoven's quartet op.127 might have been an inspiration for this quartet. Not actual themes but the overall setup with comparably "light" first and last movements with the first having a somewhat similar lyrical character (and in 3/4) and the finale being a bit "rustic"(although the Beethoven is not a rondo). And two rather weighty middle movements although the scherzo is of course rather different and the adagio not as huge as in the Beethoven.


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## hammeredklavier

^The slow movement of No.1 is reminiscent of that of Beethoven's 9th symphony, btw.


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## Kreisler jr

Yes, this similarity is close has been noted before and is hardly doubted, I think. 
Having now listened about 5-6 times to #3 and once again to #1 (because the St. Lawrence disc has #1 following #3), I overall prefer #1. With repeated listening I find the repetitive finale of #3 a bit tiring. This kind of relentless repetitive stuff works better in Schumann's piano music.


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## Carmina Banana

SearsPoncho said:


> ACB: I enjoyed this one. Cherubini Quartet. I also liked the middle movements, especially the Theme and Variations, the most. The initial theme of the opening movement (falling note, repeated note) reminded me of the opening theme to Beethoven's Op. 31, #3 piano sonata. Actually, several moments were Beethoven-esque. The string quartet form might have forced Schumann to be a little more disciplined than usual, and the music was generally more fully realized, both melodically and harmonically, than Schumann usually is. To be honest, the 1st movement was neither here nor there, so to speak, for me. 2nd movement was great! I immediately recognized the Finale; perhaps it was used in a movie, commercial, or as an intro to an NPR show. I saw the Tokyo String Quartet play it about a decade ago and I remember enjoying the performance very much. So, Schumann's chamber music satisfies again.


This resemblance to opus 31, #3 hit me also. To start the piece with that gesture (I guess you could call it a IV chord with an added 6--I realize I am mixing my classical and pop terminology) seems like too great a coincidence. Also, he has the same approach of using that motive in a quasi introduction and then incorporating it into the allegro portion of the movement.


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## Carmina Banana

Here are some half-formed thoughts about this piece and Schumann. 
I consider Schumann to be one of those composers who really excelled at short lyrical pieces--songs, character pieces for piano, etc. and his long form compositions are sometimes a bit uncomfortable. This piece hangs together but in a typical Schumann episodic way. This seems very different however, from late Beethoven fragmenting and disintegrating. When he does really put together a longer movement, it tends to get its point across by what Kreisler Jr. pointed out as relentless repetition. Some kind of dotted rhythm takes over and just won't let go. Ka-thump, ka-thump, ka-thump. As if pursued some persistent demons?? These quirks are what I love about Schumann. He isn't your run-of-the-mill romantic composer.


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## Knorf

Carmina Banana said:


> Some kind of dotted rhythm takes over and just won't let go.


This comment out of context would first lead me to think you were talking about Beethoven's Seventh Symphony.


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## Kreisler jr

Yes, but in Beethoven's 7th it's storming away whereas in the Schumann finale (a different rhythm) seems more like stomping on the spot. I think DF Tovey used Alice and the Red Queen in a slightly malicious comment on the finale of Tchaikovsky's 5th. I have nothing serious against that Schumann finale but the repetitions of the already in itself repetitive refrain get a bit obsessive, I think.


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## Malx

I'm never quite sure what to make of Schumann's works - the balance of the movements seems strange to me, the finale almost feeling as if it belongs somewhere else, even in another work! But in terms of the sound I hear when it reaches my ears it is certainly enjoyable enough. The Beethovian connections are noticeable in places - so much so I was moved to play the Op31/3 piano sonata yesterday evening. 
I read (Merls post) that it was composed in a fairly short period of time - does that explain the construct of the piece, I don't know - was it just the way Schumanns mind worked that put things together in the manner he did? One thing for sure he did things his own way which is in my way of thinking a good thing.

In terms of the recordings I listened to I restricted things to the Modigliani and Gabrieli Quartets that I have on the shelves and have a strong preference for the Modigliani's - better sound and more lively playing.

A strangely interesting piece.


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## StevehamNY

"You know, Schumann went mad from that."






I can't help thinking of this Seinfeld episode during Schumann week. Although while it's true that he experienced a constant A-note in his head during the last phase of his life, this was just one symptom of his illness and not at all the primary cause. Whether it was mercury poisoning or an intercranial mass or something else entirely that sent Schumann to the asylum, I'm reminded that so many composers led pretty hard-boiled lives in the 1800's.

(Hell, probably everyone did, and I know it's not just confined to that century. In fact, assuming that mankind is still around in 200 years, I wonder if they'll look back at us and marvel at what we've had to live through in the early 21st. Am I right?)

Anyway, I'm enjoying the quartet this week (especially the hammering 2nd movement), and now I'm especially looking forward to Burbage's Friday post on this hardboiled composer!


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## Merl

OK, I've thrown together my blog review. Hardly any recordings I didn't get to hear and some I forgot about on the HD that have impressed me.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3545-schumann-string-quartet-3-a.html


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## Chilham

I've listened three times to the only version I have - Takács Quartet.

All three times it's been unable to hold my attention and I've only noticed when it ended.

Maybe it's me. Been very busy so the mind is over-active.

I'll try again.


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## Kreisler jr

Kreisler jr said:


> I have nothing serious against that Schumann finale but the repetitions of the already in itself repetitive refrain get a bit obsessive, I think.


The coda can ge pretty exciting in a helter-skelter way. It definitely reminds me of several other pieces, probably the middle movement of the C major fantasy that also has these dotted jumps but some other pieces I don't exactly remember  One movement in Sibelius' Karelia also has that rhythm locked in.


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## Merl

Chilham said:


> I've listened three times to the only version I have - Takács Quartet.
> 
> All three times it's been unable to hold my attention and I've only noticed when it ended.
> 
> Maybe it's me. Been very busy so the mind is over-active.
> 
> I'll try again.


If it doesn't grab you, it doesn't grab you, Chilham. We don't all like the same thing. I remember that when it came out the reviews were generally very, very positive but there were some reviewers who thought it was just good but underplayed (no one slagged it off). Actually took me a couple of listens but once I got it I bought into their vision. They're certainly not one of the more powerful recordings but neither are the Auryn's and they do it really well too. The one that got excellent reviews (St. Lawrence) is one that doesn't resonate much with me. I recommended it (as I did with their 1st quartet) but I find their recording too lightweight. Yes, they play beautifully but I don't feel the tension in their performance. Others will probably think its way better than me. I'd definitely urge anyone who hasn't heard the new Emerson recording to give it a try (even if you don't usually rate them). I think it's possibly the best recording I have of theirs. It has the sensitivity, the technical acumen and the intensity, necessary for me.


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## StevehamNY

For such a romantic-era staple, many album covers will naturally congregate in the moody landscape seascape mountainscape lakescape fogscape category, along with the inevitable one album that does the Woman Tending Plant/Flower thing:









And because it's often a signature piece for the quartet, the inevitable group portrait is the other default:









Bonus points in the group shot category go to the Terpsycordes for their unique take on the Seagull's View, to the Gerhard for their version of the Rolling Stones' _Black and Blue_ cover, and to the Italianos for using a Kraftwork-level amount of airbrushing.









And extra bonus points for memorable design go to the Hermes for inspiring the La Dolce Volta label to use an interesting shadow shot (instead of their usual telephone wires or abandoned appliances), to the Vertavos for the blurry echoed dancer shot, and to the Remoirs for whatever's going on with that tree.









(Sorry, these came out kinda small this time!)


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, I'm giving you a virtual high five! I sing "Master of the House" ALL THE TIME because of Seinfeld. That's the only part I sing: "Master of the house, nah, ne-ne, nah-naah..." I forgot it was from Les Miserables. It drives my wife crazy! Kudos to George for correcting Jerry's pronunciation of Schumann lest we think he's referring to William Schuman. By the way, I don't think we ever saw Elaine's father again. 

P.S. I'm glad I'm not the only one who heard the opening theme to Beethoven's Op. 31, #3 piano sonata in the first movement of Schumann's 3rd qt.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> .
> 
> P.S. I'm glad I'm not the only one who heard the opening theme to Beethoven's Op. 31, #3 piano sonata in the first movement of Schumann's 3rd qt.


I can't believe I never made that connection before. Its almost a straight lift. No wonder the quartet has always sounded 'Beethovian' to me. Derrrrr!


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## Burbage

_It's Friday so, despite everything (my family's Central Committee has declared Christmas a week early, which is unusually interesting of them, if not unusually unhelpful), I've written something._

In the old days, before Haydn got lazy and Beethoven ruined everything, composers would churn out quartets in sets of six, and the publisher would decide what order they'd go in. That was because the publisher, familiar with the demands of an often whimsical and amateur audience, knew to put the charming and playable at the front, and the dull and difficult at the back. Much as teachers do, for arguably similar reasons.

If there's one thing history has taught us about publishers, however, it's that posterity doesn't always look them in the eye. And that something that have in common with composers, who would be almost notorious for under- or over-rating their own talents, if critics weren't there to do it for them. In this case, it seems to have been Schumann himself who dictated the order, simply by writing them that way, allegedly dashing off the third in as much time as it would take an ordinary mortal to get service at a Post Office. Perhaps he was qualified to do so, by being a critic himself. Though I gather Clara was usually involved in the editorial side, preparing work for the publisher, and might have switched them if she'd seen a need. Which she didn't.

So it's a little surprising to find this third quartet the (marginally) most recorded. Or, at least, re-issued and re-packaged. Sometimes, that's just a matter of luck. An adequate recording, committed to shellac in the twentieth century, might have notched up ninety years of sales by now, whereas anything deemed less fashionable then will probably still be struggling, nudged out of the paddock of much-loved warhorses and excluded from the contemporary gallops. But there's not much in it.

Perhaps that's because the three works are indistinguishably good. But more likely because they're audibly clearly a set, and seem to have been planned that way. And, as a set, they're at least as good as any of Mendelssohn's or, for that matter, Haydn's. And they're wide-ranging pieces with at least some "symphonic fury" (though I gather he tried to avoid that) but mostly they're the product of a good student of the form. There's a fluid handling of melody and facility with rhythm, which constantly shifts to pull the listener in and, occasionally, unsettle them, without the flaccid japery for which Haydn is famed, or the inequities of Spohr. It all feels unashamedly romantic.

If I had to pick a favourite, it probably wouldn't be this one, though the third has many excellent features and nothing that's dull or out of place. Which is surprising because Schumann's other work has never done much for me and, until I dutifully listened to the quartets a couple of years ago, I thought him a universally rotten composer. His symphonies are unmemorable program-fillers, his opera's an unperformed mystery, his list of indistinguishable bits for piano unexciting, and his songs seem calculated to appeal only to the syphilitic disciples of ETA Hoffmann (who, to be fair, outsold and out-influenced an entire nation of Nibelungs with a not-so-humble talking cat). The quartets, however, are something else, branching away from the fusty worlds of Spohr and Molique, drawing out the line from Beethoven to Schubert to Mendelssohn, and as far from 'conservative' as anyone could hope for, despite the century or more of posthumous academic debate and reputational graspery, that put him in that box. For which we can thank the interminable Wagner, who managed to hold audiences captive for well over a century on the strength of a single interesting chord and presumably needed the publicity.

As a humble connoisseur of the quartet, I try to take a Brahmsian view. Wagner, I'll admit, could sometimes write music but, like his fellow-traveller Liszt, mostly preferred not to and, by leaving no quartets at all, chose to opt out of posterity. Which leaves us with Schumann and his three quartets as the highlight of his era, the expression of music as music, a communication in and of itself, untainted by political and quotidian concerns and thus as good as it would get for at least fifty years. Not, perhaps, enough to atone for the Jolly Farmer, but nobody's perfect.

So why, exactly, did Schumann write this quartet? The obvious reason is that he was writing a set of three, and the first two were already written. But I understand he'd been thinking about quartets for half a decade (which might be why he managed to finish the writing fairly quickly), urged by his own critical admonishments to other composers of his time who, like Chopin and Liszt, had descended to churning out three-minute crowd-pleasers. And so, without reading any letters or biographies or academic treatises, it seems Schumann simply thought quartets were the sort of hefty and serious things that composers should do. And isn't that the truth?


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## FastkeinBrahms

Flaccid jabery and Kater Murr in one post, bravo!


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## Kreisler jr

Hey, he is mostly doing his own stuff on the rooftops but it's MY cat after all!

Johannes Kreisler, Kapellmeister


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## Carmina Banana

Merl, 
I am using your blog as a guide and finding some excellent choices. I might have passed up the Emersons if not for your recommendation. It is a beautiful recording—extremely clear but also warm and vibrant. 

One more half-formed thought/question (this might be part of my dissertation if I ever go back to school):
Why was Schumann (and other romantics) so determined to confuse our ear regarding meter? There are many examples in this quartet, but take the opening of the last movement. With his ingenious use of accented upbeats working against the natural tendency of phrases, he makes us think, Oh we’re in three, no, we’re in two, no, we’re in three. 
The first movement has another typical “schumannism:” he has a lovely melody in the upper stratosphere of the cello, but all three of the other instruments merciless attack it with offbeats. It is interesting to hear the different interpretive approaches to this. Some groups hide the offbeats, some play them short and punchy, giving it a jazzy syncopated quality and some play them out but with a longer duration—this is the most disorienting effect. It is like two things vying for your attention with equal insistence. 
I have always loved Schumann for these moments of confusion and ambiguity.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Thanks for all the interesting comments this week, folks! Schumann is a tough nut to crack for a variety of reasons. He was a total non-conformist in every way, and I think what I previously didn't get about him was that he didn't much care for working within conventional forms and developing his ideas within classical structures. Once he gets a tune in his head, he drags it out as long as he wants to, and once he gets a different idea, he switches abruptly without warning. And it's that utterly heartfelt quirkiness that I now find so great and unique about his music. It's a perfect mix of the predictable and the surprising, and I think this quartet is one of the greatest examples of that. The Florestan/Eusebius tension is constant, and that song-cycle kind of form gives a dramatic sweep to the work that I find captivating. Even when things settle down into a uniform mood a bit more in the last two movements, there are still some strange little disturbances in the flow of the music that probably only Schumann could make work. As others have pointed out, the true precedent for this is Beethoven, especially the hilarious incessance of the dotted figure in the wonderfully annoying finale (yes, I just said "wonderfully annoying!") reminds me of the scherzo from LvB's 14th. It's certainly from from a perfect work in my estimation but I discover fascinating little details every time I listen to it. There are so many enigmas in Schumann's music, but it can also be enjoyed on a more basic level as the epitome of lyric, mercurial Romantic pathos; and that's perfectly valid as well.

By far my favorite performance of this I listened to was the Eroica, who captured Schumann's fleeting, witty, passionate mood changes perfectly; pointing up all sorts of yummy little details, adding little rubati and irregularities of phrasing and articulation to constantly tickle the ears; all couched in superb recorded sound and gorgeous tone. It's the kind of recording that simply sucks you in and sweeps you along, always challenging you to listen out for new things. I have a feeling Schumann would have loved it. Also effective were the Zehetmair (very spontaneous and exciting) and the Takács on Hungaroton (dry acoustic as is typical for their recordings on this label, but fluid, lyrical, and immersive if lacking a bit of energy).

Next week's pick is *Mandryka*'s. Current schedule:

Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1080
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Kreisler jr

I think Schumann loved making people dizzy. Maybe a connection with the near worship some romantics had for, let's say uncommonly excited mental states, be they induced by drink, drugs, emotions, madness.


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## Merl

Just added the *Vogler* recording which I had forgotten I had (I'd filed it under Brahms for its companion quartet). Another heavily recommended recording.


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## Mandryka

This weeks choice is Shostakovich 5.

I first got interested in this quartet after reading Edward's post about it here



EdwardBast said:


> The best performance I've heard of the Fifth Quartet (by far) is by the second incarnation of the Borodin Quartet with Mikhail Kopelman, on Melodiya in the complete set - searing intensity, utter clarity.
> 
> The Fifth is a masterpiece. Composed not long after the preludes and fugues of Op. 87 and at nearly the same time as the Tenth Symphony, it is Shostakovich at the height of his contrapuntal skill and imagination. This is obvious in the quasi-symphonic drama of the development but even more so in quiet passages like the recap of the second theme, where four completely independent lines, each with a different personality, are blended and woven in sweetness and harmony. The first movement, like that of the Tenth Symphony, is a thoroughly traditional sonata structure in the Russian variant of the form where the recap of the first theme is intensified and dovetailed into the end of the development. For my money, Shostakovich never surpassed this movement for dramatic intensity and poignant contrast.
> 
> The second movement is an unquiet nocturne. The eerie mood is set by its unusual "orchestration"; The main idea is played by muted viola and doubled two octaves higher by the first violin using harmonics. Like the first movement, it too has a contrasting idea hidden away like a private joy, secretive, hushed, untouched by chaos and stress of the world outside‚ a dream within a dream.
> 
> The finale's first theme is based on free retrogrades of motives from the first movement. Ideas from the other movements return, as the OP describes, to threaten and raise tension, but the quartet ends in the tranquil dark of a final nocturne. It seems a haunted peace to me.
> 
> The Fifth might be my favorite of the quartets.


However much as I remember enjoying the Borodin Quartet on Melodiya -- this recording, which has caught my attention, has an interpretation which I think is rather impulsive, and lately I've been listening to it more -- The Artemis Quartet


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## Malx

Nice choice Mandryka - I have a few to get my ears around this week including the two you mentioned. Looking forward to a good weeks listening.


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## Kreisler jr

That's probably my favorite DSCH quartet although I have to admit that I don't know some of them (esp. ca. 13-15) as well as I should.


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## Merl

Great choice Mandryka. I love that first movement and have lots of recordings of this quartet to listen to. I'll probably start with the one below.


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## StevehamNY

I swear I just listened to DSCH #5 yesterday while walking my dog.










And this is not the first time this has happened!


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## Carmina Banana

Kreisler Jr.:

I agree. It would be interesting to compare this era with the 1960s in the US. Not only in terms of altered states, but Schumann was, I guess, anti-establishment. The Philistines could be compared to The Man in hippie culture I suppose.
For Schumann, maybe the biggest factor driving him at this point in his life was his obsessive love for Clara, which we have not really touched on. Make love not war.


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## Merl

Listened to 4 of these today one was very good, one was let down by being a little too fast, one awful but the other is a cracker. That one is gonna be the one to beat and its not one most people would know (I didn't know it).


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Listened to 4 of these today one was very good, one was let down by being a little too fast, one awful but the other is a cracker. That one is gonna be the one to beat and its not one most people would know (I didn't know it).


Have you heard The Manhattan Quartet? I like it very much, a tight taught sound.

https://www.discogs.com/release/676...et-The-Complete-String-Quartets-Vol-2-Nos-4-5


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Have you heard The Manhattan Quartet? I like it very much, a tight taught sound.
> 
> https://www.discogs.com/release/676...et-The-Complete-String-Quartets-Vol-2-Nos-4-5


Not tried that one yet, Mandryka. Tbh, I've not been too impressed with the other Shosty recordings of theirs we've covered in this thread up to now but everyone starts with a clean slate each time so we'll see. The 5th is a very different quartet though. Very symphonic in feel (if that makes sense). I know some people prefer a 'throw the kitchen sink at it' type of approach to this quartet but I'm not that bothered about that. I just want an ensemble who can make their account sound right. I've just listened to the Borodin (Melodiya) and the Sorrel recordings and they're very different approaches. One is noisy and jarring, the other relaxed and more balanced. Interesting how differently two quartets interpret things. How the listener responds to these is purely down to personal preference. If I have time before bed I'll try and take in the Rubios. I think there's more arguments over interpretation in Shosty quartets than there is for any other composer's works. Same goes for the symphonies, too.


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## Allegro Con Brio

_"The music we now experience portrays the land where the ghosts dwell; it is a desolate world, observed with clinical dispassion; a still universe surveyed following the onslaught and after the rampage. The music assesses this landscape without bitterness or sadness but also without the sublime romance of the Second Quartet. Instead the comfortless, icy world is viewed with the detachment of an auditor. As the notes become scarcer, the spaces between them increase in pregnancy. Nature cannot support this vacuum, and suddenly less becomes more; emotional intensity swells into the silence."_ - http://quartets.de/compositions/ssq05.html


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## SearsPoncho

What a great choice! I also believe it's one of his best quartets. It's great to hear all the different textures a great string quartet can pull out of this one. I would think it's hard for any 2 quartets to play it alike. I have the 2nd Borodin cycle and the Fitzwilliam (thanks to a recommendation on this thread).


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## maestro267

Excellent quartet. Recently bought a cycle so glad to give this one a second go. One thing that jumped out at me was a fragmentary quotation of what definitely sounded like the opening to the third movement of the 10th Symphony, in the pizzicato writing at the end of the first movement.


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## Merl

Listened to quite a few today and yesterday but two I really didn't like were the Danels and Taneyevs. There were intonation issues galore throughout the Taneyev (and it was too slowwww) and the Danels I just found a bit boring, tbh. Gonna be a shorter list than usual this time, I reckon. One is standing high atop the pile at the moment.


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## Bwv 1080

Just sticking w Pacifica, which is quite a good recording

Did not know this quartet, found it really interesting - sort of a transition between the more orchestral, traditional earlier quartets and the starkness of the later works? Seems to be more development of ideas - a lot of material in the first movement juxtaposed with the recurring D-S-C-H motive

Second movement - nice effect with the harmonic doubling. almost sounds like a fugal exposition, perhaps because he had just finished the 24 Preludes and Fugues?

Third movement has this lovely pastoral middle part which sort of fades into a cold void


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## Knorf

I'm on holiday, so I'll have to get to Shostakovich's Fifth Quartet next week, but I do like it very much and look forward to paying it a bit more attention than I've afforded it in the past.


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## Merl

Incidentally , there's a Shosty SQ cycle on Spotify credited to the 'Quartetto Classico'. Listening to the 5th I wasn't particularly impressed but it was pleasant enough so I suspect its a pick-up ensemble of the kind thrown together for the Alfred Scholz recordings as I can't find anything about them. Not listened to the other recordings in the cycle, though. Anyone know anything else about this cycle?


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## starthrower

I'm liking the sound of the Borodin's third account on Decca. The playing and recording quality sounds great to my ears. Of the different ensembles I've explored there are the more vigorous approaches by the Shostakovich, Artemis, and Borodin quartets, and the more lyrical style of the Rubio, Fitzwilliam, and Danel quartets. An oversimplified summation but just my basic initial observations. I was completely unfamiliar with this quartet.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> I'm liking the sound of the Borodin's third account on Decca. The playing and recording quality sounds great to my ears. Of the different ensembles I've explored there are the more vigorous approaches by the Shostakovich, Artemis, and Borodin quartets, and the more lyrical style of the Rubio, Fitzwilliam, and Danel quartets. An oversimplified summation but just my basic initial observations. I was completely unfamiliar with this quartet.


I thought you summed that up perfectly, ST. I really didn't like the Danel recording at all or the Emersons for that matter. I've tried the Danel twice and it leaves me cold and doesn't move me. I quite like the playing in the Emerson performance but find the sound and atmosphere stark and empty. I'm sure others will feel differently. I've just a few left to listen to and then I'll no doubt do summing-up on my blog.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Incidentally , there's a Shosty SQ cycle on Spotify credited to the 'Quartetto Classico'. Listening to the 5th I wasn't particularly impressed but it was pleasant enough so I suspect its a pick-up ensemble of the kind thrown together for the Alfred Scholz recordings as I can't find anything about them. Not listened to the other recordings in the cycle, though. Anyone know anything else about this cycle?


I've come across them before -- they have an Art of Fugue and it's not bad. But I wasn't able to find anything more about them.


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## StevehamNY

The Quartetto Classico is a Japanese quartet. According to a translation of their website:

"Formed in 1986 by Tokyo University of the Arts and graduates of the same graduate school. The repertoire has more than 80 songs, all of which are played in secret."

Played in secret? I suspect a bad translation here.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> The Quartetto Classico is a Japanese quartet. According to a translation of their website:
> 
> "Formed in 1986 by Tokyo University of the Arts and graduates of the same graduate school. The repertoire has more than 80 songs, all of which are played in secret."
> 
> Played in secret? I suspect a bad translation here.
> 
> View attachment 162296


I stand corrected. Top research, Steve. Just sampled their 8th and it's actually quite nice. They seem to go for a more lyrical approach in Shosty from what I've just sampled. I will investigate this cycle over Xmas.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I stand corrected. Top research, Steve. Just sampled their 8th and it's actually quite nice. They seem to go for a more lyrical approach in Shosty from what I've just sampled. I will investigate this cycle over Xmas.


I'm looking forward to your rundown even more than usual, Merl, because I've been listening to DSCH #5 all week (as always, it's the value of this forum that you actually need to stop and focus on one quartet, instead of just passing through from #4 to #6, as I would usually do), and it's hard to imagine anyone doing a better job than the Borodins in their second recording.

I've also listened to the original Borodins, as well as Borodin III, and the Emersons, Fitzwilliams, Taneyev, Pacifica, Emerson, Mandelring, and of course my own recording by the Danels. I understand that you're underwhelmed by the latter, and while I'd probably rank them higher, I agree that in this particular quartet they're left far behind the Bordon II.

Having said all that, if I'm reading your earlier posts correctly, there's yet another quartet, not one of the "usual suspects," that's going to come out on top? I cannot wait to see!

I hope everyone's having a great Christmas week, and staying safe and warm.


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## Malx

Having spent my listening time bouncing between Shostkovich SQ 5 and Mahler/Nielsen symphonies, it has been a cracking week.

The 5th string quartet for me is a fabulous piece, although in three movements they have a flow which brings them together as one. One thing that occurred to me while listening was that if it were to be orchestrated it could easily become a successful string symphony.
I hear the DSCH theme is clearly evident as is the connection to the 10th Symphony which was composed around the same time. As is usual I'll leave the technical analysis to those more capable than myself.

As usual I have concentrated my listening on the recordings I have on the my shelves, augmented by a few other recordings via streaming.

I sampled the Borodins first recordings (Chandos) along with the Fitzwilliams (Decca) and the Mandelrings (Audite) none of which made me wish to supplement the three recordings I have close to hand. In fact I thought the Mandelrings were a touch too smooth, really nice to listen to but they did lack the bit of bite I think Shostakovich requires.

The three recordings I have are:

The *Borodin Quartet *on Melodiya (second set) - this was the first complete set I bought therefore I really love the gritty authenticity they bring to the piece but now the sound quality leaves a little to be desired.
The *Pacifica Quartet* who are beautifully articulate in the way they play, a little smoother than the Borodins without taking away the required 'dig' I look for - controlled energy if you like. They also nail the andante for me.
My latest addition the *Artemis Quartet *has quickly become a much loved version - they come over as forceful, but in a nice way, maintaining plenty of momentum almost becoming pithy at times but never becoming hard driven to the detrement of the piece, suffice to say their vision of the quartet works well for me.

I am extremely comfortable with all three of these recordings but if someone insisted on saying I could keep only one I would probably, maybe, perhaps go for the Pacifica Quartet but boy the Artemis recording is exciting, and the Borodins have an authenticity I love......


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> if someone insisted on saying I could keep only one I would pboy the Artemis recording is exciting, ..


I think you will find that you're not the only one who says this.


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## SearsPoncho

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Season's this and that, and, most importantly, Happy Festivus(!) to my friends on the Weekly String Quartet thread (and all others on this site)! No better way to wallow in the season than to listen to a post-war, post-Stalin, Shostakovich quartet...

Been listening to the Borodin's 2nd recording. The first movement is indeed symphonic, and I could easily imagine this fully orchestrated as an opening movement to a big symphony, such as the 5th, 8th, or 10th. It even has Shosty's personal musical motif. For me, the middle Andante is especially extraordinary. It's amazing how this movement is both creepy and beautiful. He breaks out all the Shostakovich-isms in the final movement, and concludes as only he can. Irony? Sarcasm? Tragedy? Life goes on? A pleasant, inviting smile with a middle finger raised behind his back? It could be all of these or none. Perhaps a bit of T.S. Elliot's most famous work (I didn't say his greatest, but his most famous). After this quartet, Shosty was off to the races with more personal and enigmatic works, which would be further distilled to their essence in the late quartets.

A great choice by Mandryka!


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## Merl

If anyone has a link to the Atrium Quartet's recording then post it (or PM me). Really want to hear that one (for the Beethoven too)


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## Merl

Sorry for the double post but I wanted to say a few things before I posted my blog. Firstly, I'll be honest, the 5th quartet is not a favourite of mine. I find it an oddly disjointed piece in my head but I react like that to some of Shosty's symphonies too. I don't know what my problem is with it - maybe it's because it's so dark and I'm in a good mood having finished for the holidays....Seriously, perhaps because I don't hear any sort of resolution in it..I do find it a bit meandering.. . I don't know. Yes, I still enjoy it but I've got to be in the right mood and as a quartet there are many other Shosty quartets I play first. Anyway, I've had to try hard with a few recordings that initially didn't make any impression but that resilience has paid some dividends. In fact there has been a lot of movement on my part with some recordings getting onto my list and others working their way down it. No doubt you'll not agree (no one agrees on Shostakovich recordings) but if you find something of interest then my job is done.

Shostakovich Quartet 5 review

Edit: Thanks to Mandryka for the recommendations. We don't often agree on recordings but the Manhattan and Artemis recommendations were inspired on this one.


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## Carmina Banana

What I often like about Shostakovich is probably what he got in trouble for—his skill at combining Western classical forms and procedures with his own personal language. In particular his use of contrast. For instance, the when that lyrical second theme appears in the first movement after all of the angst, it is like a breath of fresh air. Or the second movement that starts by whisking away the angst and playing something icy and unemotional. Or the third movement, how it starts with trouble and uncertainty and somehow everyone pulls together briefly for a waltz that almost sounds jolly. 
Like many great classical composers, the meaning comes not from any certain element, but from the juxtaposition of those elements. 
I have listened to several recordings and, based on recommendations, I currently have the Artemis playing. I am instantly excited about it. Beautifully recorded and played with control and intelligence. 

I should probably crack some books and review the details of his life during this time. Also looking forward to a Burbage post. That always helps to put things in perspective.


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> What I often like about Shostakovich is probably what he got in trouble for-his skill at combining Western classical forms and procedures with his own personal language. In particular his use of contrast. For instance, the when that lyrical second theme appears in the first movement after all of the angst, it is like a breath of fresh air. Or the second movement that starts by whisking away the angst and playing something icy and unemotional. Or the third movement, how it starts with trouble and uncertainty and somehow everyone pulls together briefly for a waltz that almost sounds jolly.
> Like many great classical composers, the meaning comes not from any certain element, but from the juxtaposition of those elements.
> I have listened to several recordings and, based on recommendations, I currently have the Artemis playing. I am instantly excited about it. Beautifully recorded and played with control and intelligence.
> 
> I should probably crack some books and review the details of his life during this time. Also looking forward to a Burbage post. That always helps to put things in perspective.


I can't even imagine the mindset he must have had at the time he wrote this, being so afraid that some bureaucrat with borscht on his tie might find it too adventurist or formalistic, to the point that he actually waited for Stalin to die before allowing the premiere. (And once again, I highly recommend "The Noise of Time" by Julian Barnes, because he daringly goes right into Shostakovich's mind and I think the book works beautifully.)

And speaking of beautiful, I think it's fitting that Merl gave top billing to (spoiler alert) the Artemis Quartet for their recording of the 5th, because come on, just look at this cover:









Erato has always maintained a high standard for cover design, but this one is pitch perfect in capturing both the tone and the spirit of this music.


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## Mandryka

Carmina Banana said:


> I should probably crack some books and review the details of his life during this time.


I'd certainly be interested if you or someone else did that. I don't have any books about Shostakovich.

It's good that we all love the Artemis -- it was when I found the Artemis that I decided choose this quartet!


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## StevehamNY

Mandryka said:


> I'd certainly be interested if you or someone else did that. I don't have any books about Shostakovich.


Another book I have here on my TBR pile:









(But I haven't read it yet! So I can't personally attest to its quality - although I'm sure someone else here has read it?)


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## SearsPoncho

The only book I have on Shostakovich is "Testimony" by Solomon Volkov. This is allegedly Shostakovich's memoirs, which Volkov put together after interviewing the composer. I read it a long time ago and it seemed fairly consistent with much of what we know about him now. Perhaps there's a Shostakovich scholar that can chime in on its authenticity, but I always assumed it was the real deal. Is there any reason to doubt it's veracity? If not, then I would highly recommend it. Nearly all my Shostakovich knowledge comes from that book and, more importantly, Shostakovich's music.


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## Burbage

_Last week I was busy celebrating Christmas. Or, at least, glumly pretending to recognise my nephews and wondering if there would be any cake, while cautious juggling octogenarians in the eternal midst of a endless pandemic. So, this week, I was definitely in the mood for Shostakovich._

Although it's never been officially acknowledged by his estate, Shostakovich and I go back a long way, probably because I have never liked crowds. It was perhaps inevitable that, finding myself in a town with a record library as a callow sixteen-year-old, I would take the less-travelled aisle, away from the dog-eared sleeves of popular beat combos and towards the pristine Wall of Karajan, where the newest of the new accessions was a copy of Shostakovich's tenth symphony.

At that time, my reaction to it was uncomplicated, probably best summed up as "Oh". It certainly sounded different albeit, as I later discovered, in a way that's much the same throughout all of Shostakovich, from his dutiful cantatas to his merry piano concertos. Not that it doesn't shift and evolve - earlier pieces are clearly less involved - but that particular, peculiar voice, with its way of obsessively worrying at often-recycled motifs, is strangely consistent. It is hard to imagine a work by Shostakovich being misattributed in the way that those allegedly by Bach, Haydn, Handel or Mozart have sometimes been. Prokofiev's individual, and mercurial, voice is of one who knows the rules and often breaks them. Shostakovich, in contrast, seems to have invented his own rules, and stuck to them.

At a time when I was up to my young ears in Steppenwolf and L'Etranger, Shostakovich filled a useful gap. He sounded like a slightly baffled outsider, creating another, different world that he felt he might understand better than the real one. Which was more or less what I was doing, though I never got round to doing it, discovering the hard way, as I guess we all do, that there are only so many worlds we can live in.

Which is why I've never really had much truck with the idea that Shostakovich was a devious political animal or a heart-on-sleeve dissident intent on re-shaping society. Sure, he would take a dig when he could, and often lampooned officialdom, and for that he was persecuted, as were many of his colleagues, by that same officialdom. But mostly he was a survivor, eager not to get shot and as uncomfortable in his own skin as any of us. Music was, of course, a tool for earning a living - whether rattling out accompaniments in the cinema pit or churning out triumphalism by the yard - but that was the same for most of his peers. Music was also a retreat, and where he stood out was when he stayed in, disappearing into that curious world into which he'd often carve his own initials, emerging perhaps to publish, perhaps not, depending how the wind was blowing. Above all, it was also a sort of armour - an international reputation was good for the health, turning an existential threat into the easier threat of exile, even if it came with sometimes humiliating duties, and music can speak with more diplomatic nuance than most mortal tongues.

And that, in some tangential way or other, chimes slightly with aspects of my own life (what teenager doesn't feel persecuted? what employee doesn't feel censored, or obliged to dutifully gibber mendacious corporate boilerplate to the detriment of our fellow-citizens?). It's perhaps why I find it easier to approach Shostakovich's music as the work of a fellow-human, rather than the product of a more mechanical genius.

The fifth quartet has, maybe for obvious reasons, been one of my favourites. There are clear thematic similarities with that long-remembered symphony, but mostly it's those high sustained notes which act as sinews between the inventive, immersive sections. Meandering is one word, unpressured is another, and that, I think, is what the quartet has that symphony doesn't. Perhaps the quartet was partly a sketch for the latter, as some have suggested, or perhaps it's just a matter of taste or familiarity, but I find it more meditative than detached, and it sounds like Shostakovich alone, not the performative, collegiate Shostakovich of the mushroom-farm, taking another step on that fascinating journey where, though he's never in quite the same place, he's always exactly the same man. Despite everything.


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## Carmina Banana

StevehamNY said:


> I can't even imagine the mindset he must have had at the time he wrote this, being so afraid that some bureaucrat with borscht on his tie might find it too adventurist or formalistic, to the point that he actually waited for Stalin to die before allowing the premiere. (And once again, I highly recommend "The Noise of Time" by Julian Barnes, because he daringly goes right into Shostakovich's mind and I think the book works beautifully.)
> 
> And speaking of beautiful, I think it's fitting that Merl gave top billing to (spoiler alert) the Artemis Quartet for their recording of the 5th, because come on, just look at this cover:
> 
> View attachment 162320
> 
> 
> Erato has always maintained a high standard for cover design, but this one is pitch perfect in capturing both the tone and the spirit of this music.


By coincidence, a gift for my daughter, a book called "The Art of the Album Cover" by Richard Evans is in my lap, ready to be wrapped. It looks really good, lots of nostalgia for me. Mostly about popular music albums through the decades but you can see the crossover with classical music as well.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Mandryka, were you trying to pull a clever one choosing this for Christmas week?:lol: In all seriousness, this is such a great choice, but listening to it doesn't exactly put me in the warm, fuzzy spirit of the holidays. Every time I listen to a Shostakovich piece, I come away wondering what exactly the point of it all was. Now, this isn't a negative perception at all, but with music by Bach, Mozart, Brahms, Schubert, etc. it's undoubtable that it's meant to uplift the spirits with the vigor and beauty of sublimated order and pathos. Even my other favorite modernists like Bartok, Messiaen, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg usually have something interesting and concrete to say that I can appreciate. But Shosty's shadowy ambiguity always leaves me befuddled. Does his music dwell in the realm of tragicomedy or mere nihilistic cynicism? What ought we to take from his incessant, grinding, rock-and-roll-like riffs; his winding, twisted, time-stopping laments; his juxtaposition of the sublime with the grotesque? All I know is that it's great music. It requires a deep cerebral investment for me, and sometimes I have to fight through frustration because I have no idea where he's going or what he's trying to do. But the force of his art always transcends its inherent difficulties, and the aesthetic experience is always original enough to leave me coming back for more. Despite its wonderful classical yet continuous arch structure, I would not say this is among my favorite of his quartets (those would be 2, 3, 9, 13, and 14). It can get a bit grating and unforgiving; too much grotesque, not enough sublime, too infatuated with the pervadent motto theme for its own good (I feel the same with the famous 8th). Yet there are so many glorious intricacies in the painstakingly-embroidered dialogue between the instruments-goodness, do I love that development section of the first movement! And the second movement's patient journey from shattered despair to pale rays of hope is also a uniquely moving Shostian creation. This choice has definitely inspired me to devote more time to a quartet I had previously rather overlooked among the 15-I'll just choose a different week, maybe in the bleak Minnesota midwinter of a couple weeks onward, to do so

I only listened to the classic Borodin on Melodiya, and although the sound isn't perfect, it's entirely listenable and a good deal better than most Soviet recordings of the age. Everything from the snarling attacks of the cello to the entirely committed rapport of the ensemble to a unified vision, to the gritty, soulful discursiveness of the first violin, metamorphosing seamlessly from demonic impetus to lyrical interlude, conveys Shosty's ideas perfectly.

...aaand on a brighter note, MERRY CHRISTMAS, WEEKLY QUARTER-ERS!! May your holidays be filled with the life-enhancing warmth and beauty of family, friends, food, faith (if you practice), and, of course, music.

Oh, next week's pick. It belongs to *Josquin13*!


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## Josquin13

"Oh, next week's pick. It belongs to Josquin13!"

I'm afraid I don't have a quartet that is appropriate for 'Christmas' or the Holidays, either... sorry. (Nor do I know of one...except for possibly Haydn's "Seven Last Words"? which is actually more appropriate for Easter.) But I am ready with my pick. Should I post it tomorrow or Sunday or perhaps tonight?


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> By coincidence, a gift for my daughter, a book called "The Art of the Album Cover" by Richard Evans is in my lap, ready to be wrapped. It looks really good, lots of nostalgia for me. Mostly about popular music albums through the decades but you can see the crossover with classical music as well.


Absolutely yes on the crossover between classical and popular music album covers! Just one case of many:

















*Happy Holidays to all!*


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> "Oh, next week's pick. It belongs to Josquin13!"
> 
> I'm afraid I don't have a quartet that is appropriate for 'Christmas' or the Holidays, either... sorry. (Nor do I know of one...except for possibly Haydn's "Seven Last Words"? which is actually more appropriate for Easter.) But I am ready with my pick. Should I post it tomorrow or Sunday or perhaps tonight?


Tomorrow or Sunday, whichever you'd prefer


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merry Christmas everyone


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## Malx

Seasons Greetings to all.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Seasons Greetings to all.


Some intonation issues. Not recomended. :lol:


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## Malx

Merl said:


> Some intonation issues. Not recomended. :lol:


Easy to criticise - please offer an alternative version for consideration


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## Josquin13

Happy Holidays, everyone!

Sorry that I've been partly absent from the thread over the past couple of months, but the letter 'a' on my laptop keyboard has become broken, & I'm having to insert each 'a' manually, which gets tedious. So, I've not been writing as much, and probably won't be again until I get my laptop fixed, which will be after the Omicron variant has passed.

For my pick this week, I wanted to choose a more challenging modern or contemporary Scandinavian quartet (than my previous picks), & after exploring a variety of different quartets by Hillborg, Pohjola, Kaipainen, Heininen, Norgard, Melartin, Fagerland, etc., I decided upon Finnish composer Joonas Kokkonen's String Quartet No. 3. Kokkonen composed his 3rd Quartet in 1976 when he was 54-55 years old, about 5 years after he completed his 4th (& final) Symphony & immediately following his celebrated 1975 opera, "The Last Temptations". It was written during Kokkonen's 'third period', stylistically (i.e., works composed after 1968), where his music has been described as "neo-romantic or neo-tonal in style"* (*my quote is taken from the essay that I've linked to below).

There are only two recordings of this quartet that I know about--so Merl gets a well deserved Holiday break this week: The first is a live performance by the Jean Sibelius Quartet from the Kuhmo Chamber Music Festival in Finland--on Ondine, and the second, a 1991 studio recording by the Sibelius Academy String Quartet on BIS. I won't say which performance I prefer, because I'd rather leave that to others to decide for themselves. However, I did find that listening to both recordings proved helpful towards better understanding this music:

1. Here's a You Tube link to the 3rd String Quartet played by Sibelius Academy String Quartet on BIS: 




(... and here's a link to the 1st & 2nd String Quartets on the same recording, if anyone's interested in exploring Kokkonen's SQ cycle further: 



)

2. Here too is a link to the live Kuhmo Chamber Festival performance by the Jean Sibelius String Quartet on Ondine (which comes in a 'Live from the Kuhmo Festival' box set that I've enjoyed),

--1st movement - Allegretto: 



--2nd movement - Allegro: 



--3rd movement - Adagio: 




(3. If anyone wishes to explore the 2nd SQ in greater depth--& the Passacaglia movement is worth hearing by more than one ensemble--there is another recording by the Melos Quartett on the SWR Hannsler label. Here's a link: 



)

Other than the BIS liner notes from their "Complete Kokkonen Edition" CD, which contains all three of the composer's string quartets and his piano quintet, I've not been able to find anything written on Kokkonen's 3rd String Quartet. Here's a link to the BIS booklet notes: https://www.eclassical.com/shop/art66/BIS-CD-458_booklet_scan.pdf-aeee6e.pdf.

Although I did find the following paper* written on the Passacaglia movement from Kokkonen's 2nd String Quartet, which discusses the composer's "highly sophisticated and imaginative" & innovative use of the twelve-tone technique of Schoenberg & Berg, also known as dodecaphony, & may provide a launching point for a discussion of the 3rd Quartet?--despite that his 2nd Quartet is, admittedly, one of Kokkonen's final works from his 'second period', style-wise: http://musikforskning.se/stmonline/vol_3/jurkowski/index.php?menu=3.

As for my own personal impression of the 3rd quartet, I find it concisely written, at about 17 minutes in length. It reminds me of Webern in this respect, as a lot gets condensed within a short amount of space & time. Nothing is wasted or extraneous, every note seems to have its purpose & place within each movement & the overall (apparently Golden Section inspired?) structure of the quartet. At times the music can be emotionally harrowing, while at other times, such as in the 1st movement, it suddenly takes on an agitated rhythmic drive that can sound almost martial. These strong rhythms stayed in my mind afterwards (& more so with the BIS recording). The quartet culminates with a final "Adagio" movement that is poignant and beautiful. The opening of the 3rd movement is nocturnal in mood, before becoming slightly reminiscent of a late Beethoven quartet, & then towards the conclusion the music rises upwards in a way that reminded me of Barber's Adagio, but again, it's concisely written. I also found some of the more unusual, experimental string sounds that the quartet makes interesting & imaginative (& outside the perimeter of Schoenberg & Webern). Although I expect that Kokkonen's string quartets will be more of an acquired taste for some listeners, as it's not entirely comfortable music.

Granted, Kokkonen is better known for his 4 Symphonies, Requiem, and opera, "The Last Temptations". His three string quartets are more 'off the beaten path'. So, if you don't end up liking this quartet, I wouldn't let that discourage you from exploring his 4 Symphonies, which I regard highly, nor his other two quartets, either, etc.. In some quarters, Kokkonen is considered to be the finest Finnish composer after Sibelius. None other than Carl Nielsen predicted as much for Kokkonen, who he considered to be an immensely gifted, promising young talent. For me, these three string quartets comprise an important (& largely neglected) 20th century cycle.

By the way, if anyone is curious to hear Kokkonen's 4 Symphonies after listening to the 3rd SQ (or wants to listen to the 4th Symphony in relation to the 3rd SQ), there are excellent recordings to choose from by conductors Sakari Oramo (nos. 1-4), Paavo Berglund (nos. 1, 3, & 4), Ulf Söderblom & Osmo Vanska (nos. 1-4), Leif Segerstam (no. 2), and Okko Kamu (no. 4). (Though the latter two performances have only ever been issued on a 1980 BIS LP, which I find frustrating because I like Kamu's 4th):

--Oramo, Symphonies 1 & 2: 



--Oramo, Symphonies 3 & 4: 




--Berglund, Symphony No. 3: 



--Berglund, Symphonies 1 & 4: 




--Söderblum/Vanska, Symphonies 1-4: 




--Kamu: Symphony No. 4: 




In addition, here's a link to the four orchestral "Interludes" from Kokkonen's 1975 opera, "The Last Temptations", which, as noted, derives from Kokkonen's 'third period', like the 1976 SQ No. 3: 




Lastly, if I were to mention one more work, Kokkonen's Debussy influenced 1939 "Pielavesi Suite" for solo piano is another piece that I've liked by him. I consider it to be an underrated piano composition & find it surprising that it isn't better known, or played more often by pianists (although it didn't become known until 2001). Kokkonen was a concert pianist himself at one stage of his career, so he knows how to write effectively for the keyboard (which is only further evidenced in his Piano Quintet: 



). Here's the Suite played by pianist Janne Mertaten, on an Alba CD that offers 'state of the art' audiophile sound:





https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8033902--joonas-kokkonen-piano-works

I'll be interested to hear people's responses to any of this music, but of course especially to the quartet or possibly quartets...


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> Sorry that I've been partly absent from the thread over the past couple of months, but the letter 'a' on my laptop keyboard has become broken, & I'm having to insert each 'a' manually, which gets tedious. So, I've not been writing as much, and probably won't be again until I get my laptop fixed, which will be after the Omicron variant has passed.


Tht sounds ggrvting! I cn't imgine the hssle of hving to hve tht mlfunction. We ll enjoy your perceptive writing, so I hope you get your key repired s soon s possible 

In all seriousness, great pick! I'm considering picking a Nørgård quartet someday; one of my favorite contemporary composers, so I'm semi-glad you didn't pick one  The only Kokkonen work I've heard was the 4th symphony, which I thought was an entirely unique musical language I haven't heard elsewhere. Comparisons with the second Viennese school are always a good indicator for me; I'm ready to dive into this one.


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## StevehamNY

Josquin13 said:


> Sorry that I've been partly absent from the thread over the past couple of months, but the letter 'a' on my laptop keyboard has become broken, & I'm having to insert each 'a' manually, which gets tedious. So, I've not been writing as much, and probably won't be again until I get my laptop fixed, which will be after the Omicron variant has passed.


You should have chosen Rautavaara this week! Or alternately another from either Langgaard or Kaija Saariaho.


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## Knorf

Kokkonen is an excellent choice! I've been meaning to take a deeper dive into his music.


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## Josquin13

ACB, for a second there, you gave me an intense deja vu with your first two sentences. But then I laughed. Now you see what it's been like every time I try to write anything. Why couldn't it have been the letter 'z'? 

Yes, I considered picking Per Nørgard's 10th SQ, but didn't, so it's still on the board.

StevehamNY--very funny, & true, all three of those composer's names have been giving me nightmares!, especially Rutvr, or Rutvr...Rutvr...dmn.

Knorf--Kokkonen is worth a 'deep dive' I think. The more times I've listened to his music in recent years, the more impressed I get, & especially with his 4 Symphonies. But I tend to gravitate towards modern & contemporary Scandinavian composers.


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## Merl

I only tentatively know the symphonies so this should be interesting.. You used the magic word in your description, Jos.... Rhythm. Now I'm intrigued.

PS. Couldnt you just have used another letter or character instead of 'a', Jos? :tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

^You could use the @ symbol — [email protected]@[email protected]@[email protected] Hey, not perfect, but a decent substitute.


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## HenryPenfold

I can't believe so much music can happen in 17 minutes


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## HenryPenfold

followed on to the piano 5tet. fab. if I were a composer, this is the sort of music I wish I could write


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## StevehamNY

Some friendly advice:

Do NOT listen to this quartet while reading a story by Thomas Ligotti, master of deeply disturbing modern gothic horror.









Just trust me.


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## Josquin13

"Deeply disturbing" Gothic horror? For me, it's more Lear on the heath. But yes, like I said, it's not entirely comfortable music...

Henry writes, "I can't believe so much music can happen in 17 minutes."

I agree. Kokkonen has a lot to say in just 17 minutes. It's an unusually expansive landscape to cover in such a short amount of time, but he packs it all in, concisely. I was trying to say that above by comparing the quartet to Webern. 

In some ways, I see this quartet as a journey from darkness to light. There is a sense of emotional suffering or angst in the first two movements--where at one point, the music urgently reaches a high pitched screaming: which, to me, feels like an expression of personal agony. Which makes me suspect that there is tragedy or loss in this music. Yet, in the conclusion of the 3rd movement a new resolution or sense of redemption is found from the previous turmoil. The music looks upwards, after a kind of dark night of the soul. Despite that I'm not convinced it's an entirely comfortable ending.

So, can we say that what Shakespeare does in 4+hours with King Lear, Kokkonen does in music in 17 minutes? Though I'm not claiming that he does it on the same level as King Lear.


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## StevehamNY

Josquin13 said:


> "Deeply disturbing" Gothic horror? For me, it's more Lear on the heath. But yes, like I said, it's not entirely comfortable music...
> 
> Henry writes, "I can't believe so much music can happen in 17 minutes."
> 
> I agree. Kokkonen has a lot to say in just 17 minutes. It's an unusually expansive landscape to cover in such a short amount of time, but he packs it all in, concisely. I was trying to say that above by comparing the quartet to Webern.
> 
> In some ways, I see this quartet as a journey from darkness to light. There is a sense of emotional suffering or angst in the first two movements--where at one point, the music urgently reaches a high pitched screaming: which, to me, feels like an expression of personal agony. Which makes me suspect that there is tragedy or loss in this music. Yet, in the conclusion of the 3rd movement a new resolution or sense of redemption is found from the previous turmoil. The music looks upwards, after a kind of dark night of the soul. Despite that I'm not convinced it's an entirely comfortable ending.
> 
> So, can we say that what Shakespeare does in 4+hours with King Lear, Kokkonen does in music in 17 minutes? Though I'm not claiming that he does it on the same level as King Lear.


Josquin, I think you describe the shifting mood of this piece very well, especially how it tries to "look upwards" at the very end but without entirely dispelling the darkness. While I've never heard anything quite like this and I try to avoid national pigeonholing, I'm still unsurprised by the fact it was recorded in Helsinki. (At Järvenpää Hall, try that on your keyboard!)

It sounds like a long winter's night, which is much more interesting than a sunny day at the beach!

Thanks, and Happy New Year to everyone here!


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## SearsPoncho

Back from the festivities! I should have most of this week off, so on to Kokkonen...("I changed the one to a nine. Who were these men! I wanted to be a nurse!" Ok, it's not spelled "Concannon," but close enough.) 

I only heard it once, and I'm still absorbing and digesting the whole thing. I thought I would comment on some other matters which this quartet brought to the fore, at least in my mind.

I didn't find this music difficult at all. It's pretty easily accessible to my ears. I actually consider the Shostakovich 5th much more difficult. 

Could this be considered an anachronistic work? Does it even matter? Ok, let me attempt to flesh that out a bit. If I didn't know better, I would have thought this was written in the 1930's. There are a few subtle moments and string effects which properly date the music, however, most of the actual music could easily fall into the category of neo-romantic, neo-tonal, Neo in The Matrix (ok, forget that last one), etc. I bring this up because I've been fascinated with another quartet that was written a year later than the Kokkonen (you may see it when it's my turn), but also sounds as if it could have been written in the 1930's-40's. What's interesting to me is that people rarely level such criticism for works written in the 19th century. There are plenty of works which were composed in the 1870's that sound like they could be from the 1830's-40's, and they are considered no less great for it. I realize there's the whole Brahms v. Wagner/Liszt thing, but I don't believe most people denigrate late romantic composers who sound like they could have been early-middle period romantic composers. Saint-Saens lived through Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schoenberg and Stravinsky, yet his musical style did not significantly change throughout his long life. Nevertheless, his reputation is firmly fixed in the classical firmament, and, for what it's worth, I'm a big fan of his chamber music. The music of Sibelius and Rachmaninov might not be considered cutting-edge music of their times, but who cares? They wrote great music which I love. Numerous 20th century composers, most notably Bernstein, elaborated on the pressure on post-war, 20th century composers to write either full-on, avant-garde music influenced by Cage, Stockhausen, and the like, or strict dodecophonic music (Boulez, etc.). He wrote a good deal of compositions that would fit these molds and then tore them all up and wrote the Chichester Psalms. Even all-time greats and living legends, such as Stravinsky and Shostakovich, felt the pressure(?) to dabble in the 12-tone idiom late in life. 

I'm just thinking out loud and criticizing MYSELF for expecting something very different based on the date of this week's selection. I'm also trying to come to terms with that other quartet I mentioned (I believe from 1976), which I like, but could arguably be considered an anachronism. Of course, I realize that Kokkonen wrote more modern music prior to this, his third period. 

Anyhoo...just some random thoughts (No! I did not drink too much eggnog!). This is an interesting work, but I can't say it fully grabbed me. By the way, there are some austere passages which the composer wisely wrote against a pizzicato background, thereby giving the music a sense of forward movement and filling in the aural landscape a bit. However, I also found that there was quite a lot going on, and things could get quite active and occasionally dense. The Barber's Adagio and Beethoven comparisons by Josquin were appropriate descriptions of the finale...I'm not there yet, but I only heard it once.


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## Merl

I'm going to listen in a while. All your comments have me intrigued. Looking forward to this one and did someone say "*pizzicato*"? 

Edit: I've listened to both accounts of this quartet. My feelings on the quartet? It's a fairly sparse, sombre work that held my attention on both listens (I'll return to it again tomorrow). Its quite haunting and 'cold' in feel. I agree with SP that it sounds like it was a quartet composed way earlier than it was and I was equally surprised by its composition date, btw. The live recording from the Jean Sibelius Quartet is colder and feels more sparse. The studio BIS recording by the Sibelius Academy Quartet (boy those Finns are so adventurous with their quartet names! ) is warmer and more symphonic in feel, with a fuller sound. I don't know which I prefer yet so I'll give them both another few goes tomorrow and let you know.


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> I'm going to listen in a while. All your comments have me intrigued. Looking forward to this one and did someone say "*pizzicato*"?
> 
> Edit: I've listened to both accounts of this quartet. My feelings on the quartet? It's a fairly sparse, sombre work that held my attention on both listens (I'll return to it again tomorrow). Its quite haunting and 'cold' in feel. I agree with SP that it sounds like it was a quartet composed way earlier than it was and I was equally surprised by its composition date, btw. The live recording from the Jean Sibelius Quartet is colder and feels more sparse. The studio BIS recording by the Sibelius Academy Quartet (boy those Finns are so adventurous with their quartet names! ) is warmer and more symphonic in feel, with a fuller sound. I don't know which I prefer yet so I'll give them both another few goes tomorrow and let you know.


Thats funny, had the opposite reaction - found the live Jean Sibelius Qt warmer and prefer it to the BIS

Nice move from Dsch - seems like its one step forward stylistically from last weeks quartet, both are linear and contrapuntal. The slow finale seems particularly Shostakovichy.


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## Malx

I haven't had a lot of time this week for listening but I have the BIS disc which I bought primarily for the Piano Quartet. 
I have given the third quartet a listen again today and like a lot of Kokkonens music I find it appealing - austere at times and lacking buckets of jollity perhaps, but its a work that seems well constructed and I'm sure will reveal much with additional listens. I hope to return to it later in the week but at this point suffice to say its a winner as far as I am concerned.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I very much enjoy this compact, eventful piece of music. I find it highly accessible and crafted such that the ears always have something to latch onto—something interesting is always happening that has the potential to grab you and pull you into the musical argument. I find the opening really striking and gripping as a long-breathed expressionist melody is buried in the midst of harsh, jabbing power chords before something like a hidden sonata form gets underway. I have to admit the middle movement struck me more as filler, but the concluding slow music is top notch, Schoenbergian in its wistful and sometimes unsettling blend of overripe tonality and alien horizons, ending in deep ambiguity. A lovely and memorable little work.


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## Kreisler jr

I had never heard more than the name of the composer and would not have been able to date him precisely but I was also positively surprised. It sounds a bit in between Berg and Shostakovich, although the overall arc reminded me most of Bartok's 2nd quartet, despite Kokkoonen's middle movement being rather slight compared to the allegro molto capriccioso by Bartok.


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## Burbage

_As it's the last Friday we'll have till next year, I thought I'd see if I couldn't get away with this and, as a distraction, wish you all the best for whatever celebration you can be bothered to manage._

First. I like this quartet. But what really piqued me this week was someone gently wondering if it wasn't "anachronistic", and that's the question I've determined to address. Usually, I like to probe motive, but I gather, from an impeccable source I've forgotten, that Kokkonen never wrote the same sort of music twice in a row and, having recently written a symphony or opera or something, was practically forced by destiny, or his own arbitrary rules (should there be any difference), to write a quartet.

There are some behaviours that are clearly anachronistic and justifiably frowned-upon. Wearing a top-hat to the opera, paying with cash or exposing your nose to a grocer are all, for good and proper reasons, now condemned by polite society. But time can sometimes be circular, and I am reminded, please don't ask why, of the attitude to statuary which, for millennia, aimed to reproduce a state of nature, until certain Victorians took to scuttling around with fig leaves to preserve a decency that never was, only for subsequent generations to chip them off again. Which, I think, nicely illustrates how art is always partly a response to prevailing "taste", however innovative or archaic it looks.

Prevailing "taste", however, isn't a fixed thing. It has a perspective, a set of vanishing points, if you like, that are necessarily set in the past. For most Western art-music audiences, that vanishing point will be Bach or, possibly, Pythagoras, but the traditional music of groups, regions or faiths also plays a large part, the inclusion of which can be settling or unsettling, depending on how familiar it is to the listeners. Although this might, itself, seem an anachronistic view, given how our tastes are now shaped by the ecumenical algorithms of the world's finest bean-counters, I'm struck by the number of reviews (and promotional material) that claims a certain nation's music is "in the blood" of the performers as if there was something beyond study and practice, or just being human, required for an 'authentic' performance. A fact which, perhaps despite the Emersons, I'm not sure I agree with.

That's not just because I like Uchida's way with Mozart, but because it tends to consign composers from less geopolitically-favoured nations to more-or-less oblivion, on the presumption that they must be (even if they sometimes were) nationalist tub-thumpers, with insular motives (unlike, say, Shostakovich, who had to be by decree). And because it often discourages them in the first place. Turkey, for example, was obsessed with founding a "European" music school, possibly for propagandist reasons, and efforts began in Imperial times, with Donizetti's older brother and started again, under Ataturk, with Hindemith, annoying and excluding, many Turkish musicians as they went and importing a new set of tastes for the influencers of the time, resulting in almost nothing of any interest.

In a parallel way, I think we (and I include myself) might be inadvertently trapping ourselves into a misleading version of time, in which, beyond a tiny fragment of Mozart and the start of a bit of Haydn's, dissonance didn't happen and "extended string techniques" (or "squeaky bits") were unknown until around 1930, or 1890, or any year you fancy, which is when "modern" music started to happen, only to finish thirty or twenty or forty years later, or never at all, depending who you listen to, forcing critics to coin "neo-romantic" as a label, presumably because "neo-modern" looked tautologous and silly.

And yet, as far as I can tell, that "neo-modernism" is what's endured, despite being whatever anyone calls it or thinks of it. It's what I hear in Rochberg and Rihm and Ran, not to mention Schoenberg and Kokkonen and even Carter. The material might be different - the arithmetical analysis of a cellists' waveform, a tram-ticket, the sound of the breeze through heather, tunez of the renaissance, fading waltzes, Karbadian songs, a life lived painfully - and the techniques vary considerably (successful composers have to find their own voices, after all) - but at the heart of each is a human expression which can be understood through the prism of human conventions.

Not all of it is easy to listen to, it can be 'difficult' or 'challenging' or whatever. But that can be said of a curry, where the appeal depends on the spices; the potatoes are always the same. There are anachronistic hold-outs, like Lachenmann and Kagel, still "fooling around" thirty years after Bacewicz's lost patience with such nonsense, but I'd argue that, of the eleven composers we've surveyed who are still alive, only those two have thrown out the potatoes (Lachenmann doesn't write many songs, and when he does, takes pains to "strip them of poetic and emotional diction", like someone giftwrapping a tin of biscuits after eating the biscuits first).

The trouble with modernismists is that, in attempting to overthrow all conventions (by imposing a set of their own) and avoid any expression of self in the search for some 'absolute' truth, ultimately made their music academic and inhuman. And that, however you choose to knit your version of time, is what's really anachronistic. It assumed we were all robots, long before we were.

Which is why I like Kokkonen's Third. First, it does what a quartet should - it conveys a mood, and takes me on a journey constructed by a fellow mind, in a way, though I can't express it, I can somehow understand (my special correspondent calls it 'elemental'). And, secondly, it's Finnish. And, thirdly, it embodies the truth that, however egregious the sin, the path of righteousness can be rediscovered. Or, more allegorically, that the faceless bureaucrats at the centre of the panopticon will never be able to win because they, like us, are human. And that's not a bad thought to be left with at the end of a very fraught year.


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## Malx

Bravo Burbage - you have made me laugh out loud whilst reading your wonderful post, something which takes a fair bit of doing these days :tiphat:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Burbage's posts certainly contain the finest and most imaginative prose I've ever read on an Internet forum. Time and again I laugh, ponder, and take delight in your polemical, satirical words of wisdom. You need to turn these into a blog or podcast-it might gain attention, seriously!

Housekeeping: The first choice of 2022 goes to *Bwv 1080*. Current schedule:

Bwv 1080
Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Art Rock

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Burbage's posts certainly contain the finest and most imaginative prose I've ever read on an Internet forum. Time and again I laugh, ponder, and take delight in your polemical, satirical words of wisdom. You need to turn these into a blog or podcast-it might gain attention, seriously!


I would second that suggestion. The sentence quoted below made me laugh out loud the first time I read it and still brings a smile to my face, because it is so condensed and to the point - and relatable...



Burbage said:


> At that time, my reaction to it was uncomplicated, probably best summed up as "Oh"..


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## Josquin13

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I very much enjoy this compact, eventful piece of music. I find it highly accessible and crafted such that the ears always have something to latch onto-something interesting is always happening that has the potential to grab you and pull you into the musical argument. I find the opening really striking and gripping as a long-breathed expressionist melody is buried in the midst of harsh, jabbing power chords before something like a hidden sonata form gets underway. I have to admit the middle movement struck me more as filler, but the concluding slow music is top notch, Schoenbergian in its wistful and sometimes unsettling blend of overripe tonality and alien horizons, ending in deep ambiguity. A lovely and memorable little work.


ACB,

I don't see the middle movement as "filler" in relation to the overall design of the quartet, or musically, either (though the latter is more or less subjective). Granted, the second movement is considerably shorter than the other two movements; however, I'd bet good money that Kokkonen deliberately shortened the 2nd movement for design reasons, in order to create a more profound numerical or proportional relationship between the three movements.

Looking solely at the timings of the three movements on the BIS recording, I see a basic 8 to 3 to 5 relationship between the first, second, & third movements (with timings of 8:14 to 3:07 to 5:32 ). Now, 8, 3, & 5 are all golden section numbers, proportionally, as they're a part of the Fibonacci number series, i.e., 1,1,2,3,5,8,13, etc.

Plus, when the timings of the first two movements are combined together at 11.21, these two movements form a 11.21 to 16.53 relationship to the whole quartet--that is, with the length of the third movement added on. Which puts the first two movements close to having an 11 to 17 relationship to the whole quartet. In other words, judging purely by the timings, the proportional relationship between the first two movements & the whole quartet appears to be close to a golden section proportion, which would be 11 to 17.798 (or the equivalent to 1 to 1.618), i.e., the Divine Proportion. Of course, this is only at a glance & using the timings of the movements is hardly a sufficient or precise enough way to go about proving anything mathematically. For that, you'd have to go directly to the score itself to work this all out with greater exactitude, in order to prove with any kind of mathematical precision that Kokkonen was indeed using golden section proportions in his 3rd SQ. However, on the surface it looks like he is doing so, & if so, these movements can most likely be broken down into further & further golden sections within the individual parts of the quartet.

I also recall reading somewhere (though I don't remember where it was) that Kokkonen did indeed use golden section divisions within his compositions, which would obviously lead me to strongly suspect that his 3rd String Quartet may well be a prime example of him working in this way.

I should also point out that the BIS recording was made in 1994, which was two years before Kokkonen passed way in 1996. Therefore, presumably the Jean Sibelius Academy Quartet worked in close consultation & collaboration with Kokkonen in the making of this world premiere recording. & therefore their choice of tempi in the three movements are most likely in accordance with his wishes. Although, on the other hand, it's also possible that Kokkonen might have wished they'd taken a little more time in the third movement, and extended it a bit more, which would have put the first two movements closer to a 11 to 17.798 proportional relationship to the whole quartet. In other words, he may have originally imagined his 3rd adagio movement to be played a bit more slowly.


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## Bwv 1080

I had four quartets I was mulling over for my pick - after listening to the Shostakovich and Kokkonen decided to pick the one that seems most related, so the first quartet for 2022 is:

Elliott Carter, String Quartet no 1

This is a transitional work, written during a sabbatical in outside of Tucson, Arizona in 1950-51, paid for by a Guggenheim fellowship. While not in Carter’s mature style, it breaks from his ‘cowboy’ period of the 30s and 40s. Like his later music, it eschews traditional repetition, development and phrasing, but does have clear themes unlike his later work. This is also his longest quartet, clocking in at over 30 minutes.

The work has four movements that flow into one another but has two breaks which divides the piece into three parts. The piece is not tonal and based on a four note ‘all-interval’ cell that Carter used extensively in his later work.

Julliard and Pacifica are the primary recordings but there are earlier recordings by Arditti and the Composers Quartet.

The language here seems a step past the Shostakovich and Kokkonen works, but shares similarities - the quartet has almost a fugal opening, although each instrument plays a different theme. These themes are mutated and restated throughout the piece. You find Carter’s characteristic avoidance of a unified meter - with each instrument playing at different tempi - but this is not as complex and worked out as in later works. The chords tend to be less harsh - more thirds me triads, but avoids traditional tonal relations

This piece is different than either later or earlier Carter and should make for some interesting discussion


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## Josquin13

Before we move on to next week's pick, I just wanted to point out one more thing about Kokkonen & his 3rd SQ, which is both a terrific piece of music trivia, & at the same time, also has some bearing on Burbage's perceptive, thoughtful closing paragraph to his post above, where he gives his third reason for having found this quartet to be worthwhile, writing, 

"And, thirdly, it embodies the truth that, however egregious the sin, the path of righteousness can be rediscovered. Or, more allegorically, that the faceless bureaucrats at the centre of the panopticon will never be able to win because they, like us, are human. And that’s not a bad thought to be left with at the end of a very fraught year."

I agree with these words. We can compare this quartet to other works by Schoenberg, Webern, Bartok, etc., & all that stuff, but there is, at the same time, an undeniable humanity & mind at work behind this quartet--within the redemptive nature of its journey--which is all Kokkonen's own.

& therefore, in relation to this 'darkness to light' journey that he takes us on, I find it fascinating & relevant & hardly coincidental that in all of music history I only know of five composers that wrote onto their finished manuscripts the Latin term "Soli Deo Gloria"--translated, "To the Glory of God Alone": They are (1) Johann Sebastian Bach, who wrote S.D.G. at the end of his church compositions, and once said "The final aim and reason of all music is nothing other than the glorification of God and the refreshment of the spirit", (2) Franz Josef Haydn, who wrote "In nomine Domini" or "In the name of the Lord", "Laus Deo" or "Praise be to God", "Soli Deo Gloria" or "To the Glory of God Alone" on his major works, (3) Georg Frideric Handel, who wrote it on such works as his Te Deum, (4) Christoph Graupner--a prolific, but neglected contemporary of Bach, Handel, & Telemann's, who was offered the post at St. Thomas, Leipzig before Bach and turned it down, and lastly, (5) Joonas Kokkonen, who concluded his works, including his String Quartet No. 3, with the inscription S.D.G. L.D.--"Soli Deo Gloria, Laus Deo". So, Kokkonen is in good company, to say the very least, & to my mind, the content of his quartet is similarly inventive & informed.


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## Josquin13

To conclude, with one more post, in order to include some extra links to writings on or by Kokkonen--for those that might be interested,

--Here's a link to an article on Kokkonen and his works published by the Finnish Music Quarterly in 2001 (written by Mats Liljeroos) entitled, "The apostle of musical humanism: Communication between people is the core of Joonas Kokkonen's music": https://fmq.fi/articles/the-apostle...-people-is-the-core-of-joonas-kokkonens-music

--"The Road to Mental Music", written by Kokkonen, published in the Finnish Music Quarterly in 1988: https://fmq.fi/articles/joonas-kokkonen-the-road-to-mental-music

--"The Music of Joonas Kokkonen", written by Edward Jurkowski--the first & I believe only full scale study of Kokkonen's works in English (I've just ordered this book myself):

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo...joonas+kokkonen&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title2
https://www.amazon.com/Music-Joonas...usic+of+joonas+kokkonen,stripbooks,293&sr=1-1


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## Merl

For those interested in this week's Elliot Carter quartet there's a highly informative explanation of its structure by the composer *here*.

Oh, and here's a live recording.


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## Knorf

As I mentioned in the listening thread, I tend to gravitate more to Carter's late quartets, Nos. 4 & 5. But I do love this one, and it's a pleasure to revisit it. I'm listening to the Juilliard String Quartet recording, but I plan to venture out to others in the coming week.


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## StevehamNY

From Merl's link, Carter himself talking about this quartet:

The First Quartet was written in the undisturbed quiet of the Arizona desert, and, like the desert horizons I saw daily while it was being written, the quartet presents a continuous unfolding and changing of expressive characters - one woven into the other or emerging from it - on a large scale.​
If you've ever been to the otherworldly Arizona desert... I mean, I don't think it's just confirmation bias to say I think this evocation fits the music perfectly.


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## SearsPoncho

Each line of the music seems completely independent and interdependent. Julliard String Quartet here. Zappa was a fan.


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## Malx

This has been an interesting weeks listening.
I have never approached Carter's quartets before this week, perhaps because I felt I would be likely to understand little of what would be going on, so thanks to Bwv 1080 for forcing my hand/ears to some degree.

If I'm being honest I was slightly dismayed to find it wasn't a short piece - with modern/non tonal works I seem to be able to cope with up to 20 minutes then my concentration level and pleasure buds suffer from fatigue.

Undeterred in I plunged - firstly trying the Youtube video Merl posted, Mmm not much fun obtained from that listen. Next along was the *Juilliard* recording on Sony via Qobuz - somehow this was less of a challenge there seemed to be a bit more coherence to the playing and more definition to the structure of the piece - please don't ask to explain what I mean by this as I wouldn't know where to begin.
I then tried *The Composers Quartet* - Mmm a bit quicker but lacking the sparkle/attack that the Juilliards gave the piece. By this point I'm starting to hear things that I can relate to better than at the start of this journey. I finally arrive at the *Pacifica* recording on Naxos - now the piece is working for me, I sense the Pacifica's seem to soften the edges of the work a little, noticable in the first section of the three - I'll ask those who know the work better than I (almost everyone) if I'm correct in this conclusion or am I just coming to terms with the overall sound of the piece?

This type of quartet is never likely to be my first choice for a quartet to spend an relaxing time with but I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of good things happening here that are stimulating and of interest. With time and perservence I have, I think, managed to make something of a work that I may have simply turned away from - New Year new attitude!

I have the Juilliards playing as I type - I believe they have a bit more attack than the Pacificas which may be what the music demands but somehow I have a marginal preference for the Pacifica recording.


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## SearsPoncho

Mal: I enjoyed reading your post and analysis of various recordings. You did not let your musical preferences deter you from listening to the piece multiple times. Furthermore, I love the fact that you ranked the recordings you heard. There was no "how would I know the difference" excuse merely because it was a modern, atonal piece. 

I have the Julliard Quartet set and would definitely agree that they provide a sharp attack and clear delineation of musical line, particularly in the 1st movement, which captures the almost Baroque-like polyphony of the 1st ten minutes or so.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Finally I got around to listening to this piece, played by the Julliard. I loved it. Bold, somehow it conveyed optimism and clarity. I tried to imagine the desert landscape mentioned by Steve, which got me into this mood. Exciting and beautiful soundscapes, especially in the adagio. The very distinctive character of each part held my attention throughout. Interesting how he ends the first movement with his "scorrevole" allegro and starts the slow one with a similar one. This "scorrevole" is as easy-flowing as it is scurrilous. However, my favourite is the variations movement at the end. I do not know why it reminded me of Ligeti. I am not aware of a connection.


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## Bwv 1080

If anyone is interested, here is a guitarist talking about Carter's all-interval tetrachord (a four note cell from which you can obtain all 11 intervals) there are two of them, 0146 is heavily featured in the first quartet.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, apparently, so here's some thoughts:_

As Carter has confessed, albeit for unclear reason, he placed himself in the Arizona desert to write this quartet, a barren landscape of abandoned cactuses standing prickly and aloof, gesturing haplessly at a traffic of tumbleweed that hops to the wind's twelve quarters across vast and empty plains smouldering beneath the vast and empty sky in which the scouring sun trudges its regular, indifferent path towards its own nightly oblivion.

Although not a sunny work in itself, it might well carry the burden of the echoes of the desert, from the initial deep cadenza of the cello that keens like the song of the vulture, to the squeal of the fiddle at the finish, that last expiring aria of a captured rat. In the long, imaginative meditation between, featuring keening winds, rattling pebbles, scuttling snakes, the dismal buzz of the Sonoran Desert Fly, the occasionally witty lizard and the inescapable scurrying vole, the strings go their own way, after a fashion, traipsing similar paths at different speeds.

Carter was a young man at this time, eager to paint his musical ideas on a canvas of his own devising, untethered from the demands of sponsors and academia. He didn't expect anyone to like it (or so he claims), and there are good reasons, I guess, why they mightn't. But, all the same, it won a prize, and his long career was given an early boost. What those musical ideas were, aren't so easy to discern. Carter tells us they were borrowed from his earlier Cello Sonata which isn't a heap of help in this context, but some superficial reading suggests that was a rhapsody of temporal and metrical innovation. Not, I imagine, that the casual listener will be able to distinguish them and even Wikipedia, the great oracle of our age, seems to think that temporal and metrical modulations are one and the same thing. But, to be momentarily obtuse, It is only when you can see where the bar lines are that you can understand where the pulse might be, and how daringly it's been put somewhere else. I'm reminded of Simpson, who famously altered his tempos by making the note-values longer or shorter, rather than relying on metronome marks or trusting the instincts of players to know their "allegro non tardante" from "allegro no mucho", an eccentric act of daring iconoclasm that nobody can hear, either, and which unlettered audiences might have assumed was how it was usually done, anyhow.

Behind all this, however, Carter seems to have had a big idea, one that I think Barenboim (the famous one) explains: "Carter came from two different worlds of influence: Nadia Boulanger on the one hand, who was truly very conservative in her teaching…, and Charles Ives on the other hand….He did not seek to synthesize Schönberg's expressivity and Stravinsky's rhythmic energy or neoclassicism, but created both worlds together, so to speak".

That "so to speak" has to do some heavy lifting, perhaps, given Carter's sound doesn't seem very close to Ives or Stravinsky or Boulanger or even Schönberg. Carter sounds like Carter (and, perhaps arguably, manages to sound like Carter through five decades of quartets), though I'm not sure I can pinpoint what that is. However, for me, it's the most useful way of listening to Carter, who, having studied the Old Masters, at least seems to know what he's about. There are some, perhaps, who might think that playing jiggery-pokery with the metre isn't much more interesting than when Haydn did it as a prank and, as life insistently teaches us, pranks are only entertaining the first few dozen times. And there are some, possibly the samesome, if that's a word, who think that "intervallic composition", the art of devising motifs from the differences between notes, rather than from notes themselves, isn't very new either, being the presumed practice of every novelist's "tuneless whistler"*.

This isn't a bad thing, though, and many iconic structures have arisen from similar motives. Those 'orthopaedic chairs" for example, that encourage better posture by removing support from where its expected, seem to sell very well, though perhaps more to the young, untroubled denizens of advertising agencies than to those with actual needs. There are similarities in this quartet, perhaps, which isn't so much for playing or listening to, but for wondering about. From that very non-quartettish start to the comparative ear-candy of the (almost) concluding final variations, it's the ambiguities that make it interesting, much as they do in poetry. The "combination of freedom and control" that Carter admired in other art-forms, he manages to do here, not just for himself, but for the listener who is almost encouraged to drift off, even into the wilderness of that Arizona desert, and not feel at all guilty about it.

_* There may be a thesis to be had out of the social mobility of tuneless whistlers, who seem to have begun as ploughboys in the 19th Century, ascend through the 20th via tradesmanship to the bored and upper middle-classes, only to relapse into second-rate sidekicks in the 21st. There again, there might not. Either way, it may or not be relevant or interesting that another intervallic composer was Maconchy, whose 2nd quartet of 1936 features a tetrachord, and whose 6th string quartet, which appeared in 1950, the year before Carter's, also begins with a lonely cello, though neither has been as 'popular' as Carter's (though the secretive BWGR, reviewing Maconchy's 6th for "Arts and Letters", charitably reckoned that it didn't "look as bad as it sounds"). _


----------



## FastkeinBrahms

The aria of a captured rat and the scurrying vole... Aesop in the Arizona desert. Funny and insightful as ever, Burbage


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I have given this a couple of listens and am finding it an epic, unwieldy, ambitious; yet thoroughly approachable, fascinating, and engrossing composition. When we first did a Carter quartet way back in this thread's fledgling days, my ears felt like they had been plunged into the twilight zone. I was simply shell-shocked by what I heard, and I conveyed that sense of incoherence in my comments. However, with repeated listening I learned to ever-so-slightly adapt my listening approach to focus on colors, timbres, and relationships between sonorities and rhythms rather than form, melody, and harmony; and Carter has since become one of my favorite contemporary composers; a fiercely imaginative creator who always leaves me a step behind where he is going but usually makes me feel like it is worth it to go on the ride with him. This quartet is indeed quite different than his mature works, mainly due to the presence of recognizable anchoring melodies throughout. The first movement is perhaps the most accessible, with a convincing, gripping, and clearly traceable narrative and sounds very Schoenberg/Bergian in the long-breathed tune that slithers through the entire thing. The haunting Adagio would have reminded me of desert expanses even without knowing the supposed programmatic basis as detailed so wonderfully by Burbage. It's an auditory image of an apocalyptic wasteland. The finale is a real bear that I'm struggling to wrap my ears around. It starts with a welcome, if brief burst of tonality that is then promptly bent in all possible directions through a bevy of astonishing transformations, eventually winding up in a fierce climactic passage that sounds just like the mature Carter in its unremitting assault of fireworks before the peaceful finish. That movement, and the quartet as a whole, really needs repeated listening to even start to comprehend. I can't help but admire anyone who can compose music like this-so dense, so packed with ideas, so painstaking in the level of detail, all sustained through 45 minutes. Like the Peter Maxwell Davies quartet we did a few weeks ago, I will gladly humble myself before the composer's genius and mark it down for further exploration.

*Portamento* is scheduled for the next pick, but he has not been around in a while. If we don't hear back from him, would *sbmonty* be ready to step in? Thanks!

Portamento
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


----------



## starthrower

I've made a number of attempts to wrap my head around this first Carter quartet over the years without much success. I have a copy of the Composers Quartet CD which is a great sounding disc. And I love the opening cello part. I'd have to spend a few hours in concentrated listening to this piece 3-4 times through which I've yet to do. But I'll keep chipping away at it.


----------



## Merl

I'll be honest, I've never enjoyed Carter's music, at all, but it didn't stop me having 2 or 3 attempts at this one. Unsurprisingly it did absolutely nothing for me but at least it's given me chance to blog another SQ.


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## sbmonty

I could choose one for tomorrow if Portamento doesn't appear. Or if Merl has one ready, he could choose and I could pick next week?



Allegro Con Brio said:


> I have given this a couple of listens and am finding it an epic, unwieldy, ambitious; yet thoroughly approachable, fascinating, and engrossing composition. When we first did a Carter quartet way back in this thread's fledgling days, my ears felt like they had been plunged into the twilight zone. I was simply shell-shocked by what I heard, and I conveyed that sense of incoherence in my comments. However, with repeated listening I learned to ever-so-slightly adapt my listening approach to focus on colors, timbres, and relationships between sonorities and rhythms rather than form, melody, and harmony; and Carter has since become one of my favorite contemporary composers; a fiercely imaginative creator who always leaves me a step behind where he is going but usually makes me feel like it is worth it to go on the ride with him. This quartet is indeed quite different than his mature works, mainly due to the presence of recognizable anchoring melodies throughout. The first movement is perhaps the most accessible, with a convincing, gripping, and clearly traceable narrative and sounds very Schoenberg/Bergian in the long-breathed tune that slithers through the entire thing. The haunting Adagio would have reminded me of desert expanses even without knowing the supposed programmatic basis as detailed so wonderfully by Burbage. It's an auditory image of an apocalyptic wasteland. The finale is a real bear that I'm struggling to wrap my ears around. It starts with a welcome, if brief burst of tonality that is then promptly bent in all possible directions through a bevy of astonishing transformations, eventually winding up in a fierce climactic passage that sounds just like the mature Carter in its unremitting assault of fireworks before the peaceful finish. That movement, and the quartet as a whole, really needs repeated listening to even start to comprehend. I can't help but admire anyone who can compose music like this-so dense, so packed with ideas, so painstaking in the level of detail, all sustained through 45 minutes. Like the Peter Maxwell Davies quartet we did a few weeks ago, I will gladly humble myself before the composer's genius and mark it down for further exploration.
> 
> *Portamento* is scheduled for the next pick, but he has not been around in a while. If we don't hear back from him, would *sbmonty* be ready to step in? Thanks!
> 
> Portamento
> sbmonty
> Merl
> Knorf
> calvinpv
> Malx
> BlackAdderLXX
> starthrower
> annaw
> SearsPoncho
> HenryPenfold
> Carmina Banana
> StevehamNY
> FastkeinBrahms
> Burbage
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> allaroundmusicenthusiast


----------



## Merl

sbmonty said:


> I could choose one for tomorrow if Portamento doesn't appear. Or if Merl has one ready, he could choose and I could pick next week?










Noooooo!


----------



## sbmonty

Ha! I'll post tomorrow if Portamento is unavailable. Merl, there may be consequences!


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> Ha! I'll post tomorrow if Portamento is unavailable. Merl, there may be consequences!


I sense another marathon!


----------



## sbmonty

I am taking this brief opportunity to wish all of you a happy New Year. The year 2021 was a challenge, made tolerable by your insightful thoughts, comments, comity and friendship this past year. Thank you to all.

I pondered a few works today. Langgaard No. 1 with its ominous third movement, Britten No. 1 with its mesmerizing opening and Bartok because I want to better know his fabled cycle. Pavel Haas was another potential candidate, and I'm hoping we can visit his works soon.

But... I visited TC's list of recommended string quartet works this evening, facilitated by our own TurnaboutVox, who sadly passed this year, and whose insightful thoughts I miss. The most popular composition listed is *Schubert's No. 14 in D Minor, D 810, "Death and the Maiden"*. Despite its popularity, I don't know it well. I'm sure I will in a week!

I am going to plug away at Carter again tomorrow though. It's impenetrable to me so far, but I'll keep trying. I love the challenge of opening my mind to new works and I thank you all for the opportunity to listen and learn.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Oh boy! By far the most popular SQ we haven’t done yet - I don’t think even Merl running on 8 cups of coffee could get through all the recordings! But excellent choice. It’s a work that has grown on me after initially not understanding the hype, and though I still prefer the 13th and 15th, the second movement variations in this quartet never fail to touch a deep part of my heart.


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## sbmonty

Poor Merl. It's not even 5 am in the morning his time. More coffee will be needed. 
The beginning of Schubert's No. 15 is incredible. Sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it. An amazing work.


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## StevehamNY

sbmonty said:


> Poor Merl. It's not even 5 am in the morning his time. More coffee will be needed.
> The beginning of Schubert's No. 15 is incredible. Sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it. An amazing work.


I can't speak for Merl, but I believe I recall him saying he's already done much of the legwork for this quartet. So he may survive this week yet!


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## Kreisler jr

I think Merl or someone else said that D 810 is actually the most often recorded string quartet of all! (Certainly a contender, even if there might be similar numbers of Dvorak's "American" or one of Beethoven's).

As for the Carter, I listened to the Pacifica recording (Naxos) once but although I didn't dislike the piece despite finding it quite tough listening to and while have the Composers Q as well, I didn't have the nerve to have another round for an almost 40 minute rather thorny piece. Which has more to do with my current state of mind than with the music but so it goes.


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> I can't speak for Merl, but I believe I recall him saying he's already done much of the legwork for this quartet. So he may survive this week yet!


He'll have it done by lunch time today - what will he do the rest of the week.


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## Merl

Hahaha, SBM, *this was one of the first quartets I blogged outside of this thread last year* and it took me over 3 weeks of solid listening (I've since completed blogs for ALL the Schubert quartets). I found in excess of 120 recordings of this warhorse and heard about 100 of those. As you can imagine there are many recommendable performances of this one and it's, surprisingly, rarely performed too badly. I'm not going to link my blog post at the moment but I will mention a few recordings that stood out for me when I reviewed this in the summer (either because of performance style or because they were overhyped, badly performed, terrible or just superb). As I said there were some recordings I didn't get to hear and if I do find them and they are of sufficient quality I'll definitely put them in the blog (my blogs are working documents and do get changed more often than you think).

Ive got silly numbers of recordings of DATM but that review helped me find some crackers, I didn't know.. There are many ensembles who've recorded this quartet multiple times with the Amadeus quartet being the biggest culprits (x4). Of those recordings the best Amadeus, for me (by a long chalk) was the 1982 release. Plenty of recordings otherwise but I suggest that you definitely think about those quartet ensembles who are very dynamic as many of those get this quartet better for me (no names). DATM is a quartet full of drama and power so there's nothing worse than soggy, old gushy playing here. I want quartets to throw the kitchen sink at it! Those that do produced some stunning recordings and 3, in particular, *really* floated my boat.

Some to try (for one reason or another, remember I may not rate a few of these but others might)

Jerusalem, Chiaroscuro, Pavel Haas, Italiano, Mandelring, Arod, Lindsays, Italiano, Takacs (Hyperion - they did it twice but this one is much better to me), Terpsycordes, Hagen, Di Cremona, Melos, Ehnes, etc.

Key to a great performance, in my ears, are the outer movements. That first movement Allegro needs to be highly dramatic, dark and very powerful whilst the closing tarantella needs to be a proper 'dance of death'. I have little time for underplayed outers here, tbh. As I said, earlier, ensembles who really dig into the opening Allegro always impress me but others may feel differently. No doubt I'll tread on a few toes when you see my choices but at least you know what I value in a great DATM.

As someone said earlier, for years I wondered what the fuss was about. I never rated it as Schubert's finest quartet but always enjoyed it. Over the years, however, I've come to love it for the tremendous piece of writing it is (although I still prefer Rosamunde). I hope y'all find a recording that resonates with you.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Trout's list of recommended recordings represents the general consensus of acclaimed performances, and may serve as a helpful guide:

1. Busch Quartet (1937)
2. Quartetto Italiano (1965)
3. Takács Quartet (2006)
4. Alban Berg Quartet (1985)
5. Juilliard String Quartet (1959)
6. Lindsay String Quartet (1986)
7. Amadeus Quartet (1959)
8. Hollywood String Quartet (1955)
9. Petersen Quartet (1997)
10. Pavel Haas Quartet (2013)

I've heard most of those and love the ABQ for their rich, probing expressivity; the Busch for their explosive spontaneity, the Pavel Haas for their uniquely malleable and soulful interpretation, and the Takács (only heard the earlier version on Decca due to Hyperion's odd streaming embargo) for all-around awesomeness.


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## SearsPoncho

Unleash the hounds!


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## SearsPoncho

The Beethoven 5th of string quartets, in more ways than one: popularity and fame, of course, but also musically in its dramatic urgency,intensity, economy and relative brevity of expression. There isn't one extraneous note or measure. This is "edge of your seat" listening. I have many recordings, including some great, but different performances by the Amadeus Quartet, the Quartetto Italiano, and the Julliard Quartet, among others. 

This could be considered the artistic father of Mendelssohn's 6th String Quartet or Grieg's String Quartet, although they were probably unaware of Schubert's masterpiece. 

I agree with Merl: I prefer hell bent for leather performances of this ultimate warhorse. Enjoy!


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## Bwv 1080

Have to confess that I hardly ever listen to Schubert - for me he sits in this gray zone between Beethoven and Schumann, so looking forward to this

Anyone know a good HIP recording?


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## Merl

Bwv 1080 said:


> Have to confess that I hardly ever listen to Schubert - for me he sits in this gray zone between Beethoven and Schumann, so looking forward to this
> 
> Anyone know a good HIP recording?


Terpsycordes
Van Kuijk
Mosaiques
Chiaroscuro

2 of the above are exceptional (and the other two are on my final list too), Bwv

Seeing as a few people have found my Schubert DATM blog review, today, here's my final list.

Schubert DATM recordings


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## BlackAdderLXX

Hello all. My apologies for being gone so much. Life has been extremely busy of late and I haven't had much time for participating in any forums. That said, this thread is the only one in TC I've really been even lurking in. At any rate, I'm excited about DATM. I'll be listening to the handful I have along with you all.


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## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> Terpsycordes
> Van Kuijk
> Mosaiques
> Chiaroscuro
> 
> 2 of the above are exceptional (and the other two are on my final list too), Bwv
> 
> Seeing as a few people have found my Schubert DATM blog review, today, here's my final list.
> 
> Schubert DATM recordings


I wasn't aware that Chiaroscuro did this one. I love their Haydn recordings. Do you like it?
Edit: just read your blog. I guess it's a "cracker". I guess I need to pick up a new recording!


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## Merl

Years back I didn't get DATM but I didn't know the story. I didn't know of Schubert's dreadful personal circumstances. Both are essential to understand. Is it really 'the maiden' who faces death and then looks it in the face and accepts it like an old friend or is it Schubert himself? Let's face it, poor Franz was not in a good place, riddled with syphilis and unsure whether that or the mercury he was taking was gonna see him off. His letter from the same time surely tells us all we need to know..... 


> "I find myself to be the most unhappy and wretched creature in the world. Imagine a man whose health will never be right again, and who in sheer despair continually makes things worse and worse instead of better; imagine a man, I say, whose most brilliant hopes have perished, to whom the felicity of love and friendship have nothing to offer but pain at best, whom enthusiasm (at least of the stimulating variety) for all things beautiful threatens to forsake, and I ask you, is he not a miserable, unhappy being? 'My peace is gone, my heart is sore, I shall find it nevermore,' I might as well sing every day now, for upon retiring to bed each night I hope that I may not wake again, and each morning only recalls yesterday's grief."


Cheery stuff, eh? For me all his anger and despair is poured into those first two movements and a great performance needs to reflect that. The second half of the quartet perhaps reveals his acceptance of his fate and perhaps his dark humour but whatever, its a dark and compelling listen and as years have gone by I find myself more seduced by its charms than ever.


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## Josquin13

I haven't listened to anything like the huge number of recordings that Merl has, but I have liked the following performances in my collection, & might put them in the following order of preference (tentatively): like Merl, I'd don't overly care for performances that are on the safe, slower, conservative side in this work. After all, the relentlessly foreboding opening movement gradually gives way to poignant melancholy and then to a desperate, urgent galloping, with clenched fists shaking at the heavens, if you will (to rescue the Maiden? or to escape death's pursuit?), before ending with resignation & a dance of death or 'danse macabre' in the final movement, and therefore the music should bristle with an unsettling nervous energy. Sadly & not surprisingly, this quartet was published posthumously. Poor Schubert.

Here are my top 10 accounts on modern instruments:

1. Alban Berg Quartett, video, the EuroArtsChannel--a riveting live performance given on the occasion of the Birth Bicentenary of Schubert in 1997. I find this to be even better than the Berg's studio recording for EMI, as fine as that was, though I admit the better sound does help: 




2. Orlando Quartet, Philips--this is a touch more conservatively played, perhaps, but the performance is very, very fine, and it makes a terrific alternative to the Bergs: 




3. Alban Berg Quartett, EMI: The CD remasters for this performance over the years haven't been so good, & the strings can get a bit harsh & grating & rather metallic sounding, depending on your stereo equipment--I suppose; although that wasn't at all the case with the original EMI LP that I bought when this recording was first released in the 1980s. Here's a link to one of the better sounding Japanese import CD reissues: 



& for the sake of comparison, the regular EMI CD: 




4. Takács Quartet--either, on Hyperion, their second recording: https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-String-Quartets-Death-Maiden/dp/B000I5Y8W8, or on Decca, their first recording, made some 17 years before their Hyperion account (with different personnel, i.e., the original four Hungarians): 



. Presently, I'm undecided about which of the two Takács Quartet Schubert readings I like best, but the Hyperion recording has the better sound quality.

5. Hagen Quartet, on DG--the Hagens play brilliantly here, & give a very subtle, nuanced, totally immaculate reading: 




6. Jerusalem Quartet: I find this performance to be more uncomfortable, desperate, & emotionally unhinged than the others, & not for everyday listening. As they tend to underplay the lighter, more relaxed Viennese elements in this music, which other groups bring out, & I think the music needs this juxtaposition in order not to become overdone & too relentless: 




7. Emerson String Quartet--another superb performance, as usual: 




Others that are very good to good, but not as strong as the above picks, in my view:

8. Quartetto Italiano: 




9. Chilingirian Quartet: 




10. Melos Quartett, on DG: 




While on period instruments, Chiaroscuro's recording has most stood out to me, & I'd rate it as one of the best overall,

1. Chiaroscuro: 




When we covered Schubert's SQ No. 15, I ended up liking the Kodaly Quartet's performance very much, so I'll have to make a point of listening to their 'Death & the Maiden' this week, too, if I can find it on You Tube... ah, here it is: 




Finally, there's also Gustav Mahler's arrangement of this quartet for string orchestra--speaking of another composer who similarly had premonitions of his own death: Here it is played by the excellent Metmorphose String Orchestra: 



.


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## Merl

I usually rate the Kodaly's Schubert, Jos, (and have their whole cycle on Naxos) but for me they didn't make the cut for the very finest versions as its a little underplayed, as decent as it is, but with so many competing performances I had to draw the line somewhere. You and SP are obviously more like me in preferring those that really go 'balls to the wall' here which is why I can't imagine ever rating the Amadeus soggy old 1959 recording (I'll admit I absolutely hate it) particularly as they did it 1000x better in the 80s. The Lindsays were very aggressive here (no surprise) but this time it pays off for them as they storm the opening two movements but maybe empty their emotional tank just a tiny bit too early to hit the top spots. Listening again today to a few of my picks from 6 months ago I'm tempted to maybe move that a Chiaroscuro recording up to the very top. It really is a fascinating performance and their sound seems to improve with every listen. Who knows, I may do yet, after all my blogs are working documents (not all reviews on TC are)! I've changed my mind about plenty and heard recordings since that originally I didn't have access to. To make matters worse the new Modigliani complete Schubert cycle is due out in a few weeks time so I have the feeling I'm going to have to do some major listening to that set before possibly shoe-horning their accounts into my completed Schubert blogs (they're usually a class outfit so I expect a few hits). I also need to hear the Sine Nomine complete cycle as those I have heard have been intriguing.


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## sbmonty

I’m looking forward to the Modigliani traversal as well Merl. I don’t own any of Schubert’s earlier quartets, so was thinking that might be a good option. 
Listening to the Artemis account now. The sound is terrific. Maybe a little less refined than the Emerson’s and the Takacs recordings. The Emerson’s are very tight in that presto 4th movement.


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## SearsPoncho

Josquin: Great minds think alike!

I was going to post that there was a remarkable live video from the '90s of the Alban Berg Quartet performing the DATM quartet. I usually don't like videos of classical performances, but this one is an exception, and the performance is A1.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I will try to listen to this quartet on the weekend after a long pause giving this great but over-played quartet a rest for some years.
I find the difference in character between the Lied and the variations movement, in fact the entire quartet, quite striking. Whereas the quartet wallows in woe,
the Lied does end on a note of deep consolation and relief, at least when death's reply is sung by a voice with a good, mellow low register. The quartet, maybe because of its different dramaturgy, maybe because of Schubert's distressing life circumstances at the time of writing the piece, never does this to me. Are there recommendations for recordings which mirror the effect of the Lied?


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## Kreisler jr

I don't think the quartet "wallows in woe". It's a powerful (obviously) and also quite colorful piece, e.g. in the variation movement that actually also ends rather mellow, IMO, if a bit more ambivalent than the Lied. Or take the subsidiary theme of the first movement that is quite ecstatic if played properly.

It used to be my favorite Schubert quartet, maybe my favorite instrumental piece of Schubert's but it's certainly also a piece one can overdose on. I am probably not going to listen to all of the recordings I have...


----------



## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I don't think the quartet "wallows in woe". It's a powerful (obviously) and also quite colorful piece, e.g. in the variation movement that actually also ends rather mellow, IMO, if a bit more ambivalent than the Lied. Or take the subsidiary theme of the first movement that is quite ecstatic if played properly.
> 
> It used to be my favorite Schubert quartet, maybe my favorite instrumental piece of Schubert's but it's certainly also a piece one can overdose on. I am probably not going to listen to all of the recordings I have...


I think that "wallows in woe" is a perfect way to explain how I used to feel about DATM. It's a quartet crying out for a heartfelt recording, if one doesn't speak out it can wash over you or feel lame. Quartets that feel the constant ebb and flow of the music can always impress. DATM is not drama for drama's sake and shouldn't sound like it. It's a patchwork of emotions and colours, not just black! I heard quite a few such recordings when I auditioned them for my my blog, from those that make it a vibratofest or offer no shade but for dark grey to try and convey faux-emotion. Ultimately such recordings bored me senseless. I spent close on a month with those that impressed (yes I was 'maidened out" in the warm, balmy weeks of Summer) but it was worth it to find those performances that had different palettes. It was good to see the greys replaced by hues of blue and the blacks punctuated with flashes of red and orange. I think that's why I gravitated towards the Takacs' 2nd recording over their first (excellent and thoroughly recommended) recording. Not only was the recorded sound better but it had a deeper emotional intensity. It's a similar feel to their utterly stunning Quartettsatz (you have to hear that recording to believe it). But when Schubert demands black that's what it needs. Not the washed out black of your 4-sizes-too-small 1970s Rolling Stones tour t-shirt but the black of the opening, doom-laden chord of Sabbath's eponymous title track, the black felt at the funeral of your best friend. Intensity, depth and crushing sadness, interspersed with flashes of light and fire and the strange warmth of resignation. I hope you're all finding recordings that paint more than one colour for you.


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## SearsPoncho

^^
What is this that stands before me? Oh No! No!


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> ^^
> What is this that stands before me? Oh No! No!


Obviously someone who gets the Sabbath reference! :devil: :guitar:


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## Bwv 1080

Wonder what happens if we play the quartet backwards?


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## StevehamNY

Bwv 1080 said:


> Wonder what happens if we play the quartet backwards?


Thanks for the spit take! Cleaning my keyboard now...


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## FastkeinBrahms

Merl said:


> Obviously someone who gets the Sabbath reference! :devil: :guitar:


I thought it was Shakespeare...


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## Merl

For Python fans - whenever I was mentioning the word 'black' before I kept thinking of Eric Olthwaite in Ripping Yarns describing his mam's black pudding ("even the white bits are black").


----------



## Carmina Banana

I have been absent due to some really tough medical struggles, but I was gladdened to open my computer and see one of the great musical masterpieces up for discussion. 
What I have always loved about Schubert is his sense of thoroughness. Instead of the fragmentation and disintegration of Beethoven or the meandering freedom of some romantic composers, Schubert stuck to it and played everything out to its fullest. 
That is why I have enjoyed the late piano sonatas, the 9th symphony and other works. I feel complete and whole after listening to them. 
The first movement of this piece sounds like it could have ended at least a couple of times, but when you get to the final note, it seems so right. We really needed all of the notes (of course a great performance helps to convey this).
I’m a bit behind in my listening, but what a great piece to be enjoying as I get back on my feet.


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## Malx

Hope you are back to full fitness soon CB.

I've played through the six discs I have on the shelves: Brandis, Endellion, Quartetto Italiano ('79), Jerusalem, Artemis & Arod. All are very good in their different ways but the modern recordings from the Artemis and particularly the Arod stand out for me simply because they have a bit of attitude which gets into the soul of the work - something that is essential in this quartet.

*Edited *to add the Jerusalem recording which I had misfiled (never have heard Schumann's DATM quartet!) and stumbled across when putting other recordings back in their place.
Listening to it as I type - now finished, a beautifully balanced performance with enough weight to the sound that aids adding a sensible amount of gravitas that never becomes maudlin - another winner.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This isn't a week where I'm focusing on recordings, so I'll just add another enthusiastic recommendation for that searing 90's ABQ recording on YouTube (immensely edifying both for listening and watching) by which I came to know the quartet, and provide some quintessentially ramshackle thoughts on this most intense and meaningful of works in our beloved genre.

I can't hypothesize why Schubert wrote this quartet (I'll leave that potentially quixotic endeavor up to Burbage tomorrow!) but I can say with confidence that it's impossible to separate this music from its programmatic basis, as is, I believe, the case for all Schubert. I've mentioned before that I find all of his music to be inseparably bound to evocations of song and poetry, as is also the case for Schumann. It's difficult to understand Schubert's often meandering repetitions, enigmatic yet pearlescent melodies, roving harmonies, and jarring horizons of contrast without grasping the fundamental anchoring of his art in the realm of poetic expression. Now, of course, this is one of the most blatantly programmatic pieces of music there is. In fact, it was precisely this aspect that always steered me away from it. Its clear conjuring of death, shadows, and the anguish of the great unknown is, let's admit it, highly unsubtle. I found it too dark, too hectoring, too blunt for comfort listening; and I shoved it aside in favor of the sublime, consoling terrain of the String Quintet, the 13th and 15th quartets, and the late piano sonatas. Revisiting the work with the Takács's first recording later allowed me to appreciate it a bit more and understand the lyricism, but I still find it to be far from among my favorite works of one of my top 5 composers. For me it needs more of the dappled light that Schubert usually allows to seep amongst the shadows, and its remorseless drive toward oblivion needs relief. That said, for all the riveting mastery of the first movement and the hypnotic trance of the tarantella, in which Schubert quite literally invites us to dance ourselves to death, it's the variations movement that always sticks in my head far after I'm done listening. Each variation is not really a far cry from the theme, which infers that Schubert does not want to let his thoughts leave the specter of death. Every time a treasured flash of hope shines through and the generous, bucolic Schubert seems to make an appearance, the darkness immediately invades once more. Listening to this endlessly cyclical music, this far-from-perfect, fiercely proselytizing macabre elegy for the death of hope, I feel like I gain a more honest, more sincere, and more heart-rending look into the true state of a composer's soul more than very few other works I know. Much of his work seems to conjure up the fight with death, but here it is in all its ugly, barren reality; unmasked by a shell of "pure music." Yes, Schubert's music has many flaws. But above all it, it is achingly honest. I'd rather have vulnerability than perfection any day, and somehow the sheer intentionality of everything he does here wins the day. It's this sheer purity and clarity of intention that relegates the work to an occasional listen-it's just too _real_ for me-but which places it among our canon of Great Quartets.

If you're into fascinating, mystical, borderline-bizarre, metaphysical interpretations of music (as is yours truly), there's this haunting analysis from Frank Ruppert in a book called _Franz Schubert and the Divinum Mysterium_ which it looks like I will have to purchase: https://www.amazon.com/Franz-Schubert-Mysterium-Magnum-Ruppert/dp/1434993248?



Frank Ruppert said:


> The spiritual ascent to the higher consciousness of the mystery is not bought cheaply. The terror of death must be mastered. The creation of the sublime disposition in the face of this terror is the wanderer's challenge here. It will remain a challenge throughout the composer's remaining years, one that he faces in work after work. Here as always the wanderer comes to terms with death, and thereby discovers the key to life. The "Death and the Maiden" Quartet places before us first the terror connected with this experiential act of faith, then the divine imitation, and finally, the exciting new life that dawns for the illuminated, initiated wanderer. This quartet, like so many of Schubert's works, is a kind of para-liturgy.


Is this a bunch of pretentious twaddle? Maybe, but I do think Schubert's music can withstand such interpretations.


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## Kreisler jr

I don't think there is a programme or programmatic basis for the piece, although it might be the best candidate for such a thing of all instrumental pieces of Schubert. By analogy, I doubt anyone thinks that because song melodies are used, the "Trout", "Rosamunde", Wandererfantasie or Violin fantasy have programmes. Now why should this be different, only because D 810 uses a more ominous Lied? 
As someone already pointed out above, IF one wants to go down that path, the quartet is far more ominous/negative than the mildly melancholy/redemptive song, so one actually has to postulate that the song both gives the programmatic context but the quartet also contradicts or negates the actual song. Which is obviously a method to get evidence for everything and its opposite


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## Burbage

_It's Friday and so, as a service to humanity, I thought I'd just settle all the incipient disputes and disagreements that seem to be bubbling between the urbane surface of this thread, with the following final and definitive analysis*._

"Death and the Maiden" doesn't sound like a barrel of giggles and nor, on the page, does the snatch of poetic German on which the song (D531) on which this quartet is partly based. And so, I thought, it might be helpful to look at a contemporary English translation, constructed with a thorough understanding of the two languages, their historical contexts and an intricate appreciation of the idiomatic veils and stylistic quirks of the relevant lyric traditions.

I didn't have time for all that, though, and churned out a version of my own. I make no claims for it, but what I ended up with was a scene some distance from the daub that decorates the Takacs' cover, where a partly-clad Maiden languishes in the icy waters of a frozen brook, as abandoned as a fleshy shopping-trolley, while skeletal Death peers over the shoulder of Ahasuerus and a crow prepares to do what crows do, the whole scene illuminated by the halo of an obliging angel. (It is, apparently, a symbolist work and I can't say I care for the symbolism).

Perhaps that's because my German's not up to much, or because my translation (in which "voruber" rhymes with "off") was somewhat crude. But the scene that grew in my mind was more in the way of a South-London wine-bar, all dusty red velvet and sticky floorboards, in which, close to closing-time, our Maiden is resisting the overtures of standard-issue creep, intent on a friendly bit of bone-rattling, insistent all the while that he was in no way a monster. I was reminded of a landlord I once paid rent to who, as part of a portfolio of pastimes that would excite a forensic psychologist, attempted to organise social clubs for young ladies by way of the classified advertisements in a local newspaper, membership conditional on interview.

In translating Claudius, though, I didn't just produce a travesty and, in focussing on the words, I realised something that I'd somehow missed in all the hectares of liner-notes I must have read. And that's that in the poem, in the song, in the quartet and in short, Schubert is not the Maiden.

Perhaps that's so crashingly obvious to everyone else it never needed mentioning. But it does leave open the question of where Schubert is in all this? I'm not sure it's a great poem (though my version hardly flatters it) though it obviously appealed to a certain audience. Its author was a poet, sure, but also a popular, in both senses, journalist, so it's possible it gained a degree of attention, including Schubert's, that soared above its merits, and perhaps Schubert just used it as convenient material, as others doubtless used Claudius's work to line their parrot-cages or kindle their fires. And it's the tune, not the lyrics, that Schubert recycles.

Though it's possible it really did strike a pertinent, programmatic chord. But what chord? Brothel-creeping Schubert might well have been dying of syphilis and/or its treatments but, like our current pandemic, would that have just brought the misery of impending death, or wouldn't there also hae been a feeling of guilt? After all, Claudius' poem does, to some extent, elevate Death from a faceless destroyer to a more comforting place between predatory bar-fly and empathetic friend. The poet (and journalist) does for Death what a communications adviser might do for a politician; he pens words that reach out to critics and reassures us "we're all in it together". Is that what Schubert got from these words? Consolation that he's neither the baddie nor the victim but, like most of us (or so I'm told), somewhere in between?

I probably am over-cooking things now, though Schubert's composition is just that, a composition. Such things take time and it's difficult to maintain an emotion, or even a thought, from one meal to the next. Moreover, the process of composing, like all productive occupations (and many unproductive ones) is supposed to elevate, or at least distract, us from the prosaic and mundane. When I sit down with pen in hand and face the unremitting blankness that I expect myself to fill, it's not the reality of my surroundings, the tedious urgency of mortality or the distance till lunch that inspires me, but the possibility of a timeless artistic truth, distilled by a transcendent act of imagination and freed from the shackles of wearisome reality: "Clacton's lovely, wish you were here", may not stand up to any honest, objective scrutiny but, as a charitable fantasy, it ticks the boxes I need to maintain my social connections and, directly or indirectly, pay the rent.

Schubert's quartet is much more than a dutiful postcard. It's also a lot more than a squeak of pain, and if I was struck by anything in particular this week, it was how much fun the Chiaroscuro Quartet seemed to be having, and how the savagery of some of that fun comes through with the darker tuning. It's not a piece of mournful self-regard and, though there's heartbreak in it, particularly at the end of the first movement, it bubbles throughout with humanity, like most of Schubert's music, especially in the deceptively simple variations on that deathly song which blossom from a march of funereal glumness to a dance of sarcastic anger, inventively revealing new beauties as it goes. But I keep thinking about guilt, and regret and how, when all is told, death is the easy bit; it's the living that leaves the scars.

As it happens, Joseph von Spaun, a friend and sponsor of Schubert, might have thought similarly as his response, which Schubert almost immediately turned into a song ("Der Jüngling und der Tod", D545). In that, the Jüngling in question positively invites Death to take him/her away from a life of "nameless torments". But Spaun, it seems, lived a good long life and didn't eat much mercury, so I suspect his sunnier perspective was caught second-hand in a church, where the "vale-of-tears" narrative can be easily found by anyone who wants it. Whereas Schubert, judging by his letters, could already hear Death's footfall on his stairs, and didn't much care for the sound of it.

But back to the quartet which, as quartets go, is gripping. It's not as complex as Beethoven's and not as finely-wrought as Mendelssohn's. but it's just as much a quartet. From the bell-like passages at the opening to the fierce conclusion, the mournful chorales and rustic dances, there's enough material in it for a symphony, but orchestrating it would hardly add anything as it makes good, and sometimes surprising, use of the timbres it already has. A timeless message that might, I feel, be profitably attended to by those of younger centuries.

_*Alternative descriptions are hypothetically available._


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## SearsPoncho

Merl, I can't find your blog on the DATM quartet. Help!


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## Malx

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, I can't find your blog on the DATM quartet. Help!


Hope this link works for you SP - https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3486-schubert-string-quartet-14-a.html


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## Carmina Banana

There seems to be a split on whether this is a programmatic piece or not. As with any great piece, I think either is justified—you can approach some works of art in so many different ways, all valid. 
Probably due to my laziness, I didn’t think too much about the song, or research it before delving into the piece. This quartet has all of the trappings of a typical Schubert chamber piece—big structures that are worked through diligently and masterfully. Along the way there are moments of serious intensity, moments where the light shines through, etc. This piece happens to end on a deadly serious note, but I still hear it as a stormy work like any minor key work by Beethoven or Mozart. 
That is just the way I am hearing it right now, but I will probably look into the song some more and all of my listening will be imbued by it. 
I will postulate, however, that some classical composers wrote variations almost in spite of the given theme. The Diabelli Variations is a good example. Beethoven took this banal little tune and used an a vehicle for great profundity. In Beethoven’s case, the variations are not a celebration of the theme but almost an escape from it. The question is whether Schubert simply used a tune for some variations or if the use of that song has greater implications.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, I can't find your blog on the DATM quartet. Help!


That's a situation I will rectify this year, for all my quartet blog reviews.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Hello there! Popping in after just sitting on the fence. I didn't listen to anything but Mozart since before Christmas...(ok then Schumann & Satyricon ++++++). I always think you guys have great meaningful posts about the chosen quartet and there is also a great poet among us! Poets always say more than the words they write! For me Schubert wrote the music of my life and I can't dislike any of it  (except Symphony no. 9 and the Wanderer fantasy...) This quartet is just perfect! I usually only have one recording of pieces in my cd-collection and I have the Cleveland quartet (which made me buy their Beethoven recordings). Now I'm addicted to Spotify...I lost one of the cd's in my Leipziger quartett box (...oh I have 2!) because I had it in my car and I'm a bit messy...Train of thoughts in the winter.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Maybe the debate hinges on how we define "programmatic." I know the formal meaning is that of a pictorial narrative, but I'm not exactly using it in that sense here (even though that is a possibility). I mean it more in the sense that the music possesses clear parallels to an idea or topic beyond itself—it's not "absolute" music. I'm embarrassed to admit that I had never actually listened to the lied itself, even though I could have sworn I had. So after Kreisler jr's post, I finally gave it a listen with the text. The idea of the song is the contrast between the fears of a pure maiden in the bloom of her youth and her terrible idea of Death, which Death attempts to salve by saying he is benign. The famous tune we all know belongs to Death, and his response finishes the song in a peaceful and poignant major tonality. In this quartet, could Schubert see himself as the maiden—young, fertile, just entering his prime, with so much more music inside of him for his pen to glean, cheated by the cruel shadow of impending death and the unknown? I see Death's response as perhaps ironic; or, at least, Schubert definitely didn't see it as consoling. Regardless of the hope we may cherish, the very idea of death is monstrous to us; and it's that struggle which Schubert documents (and one which even the most pious of men like Bach dealt with brilliantly in his cantatas). Not only does this song provide a valuable glimpse into the possible creative framework of the quartet, I believe it represents what I hear in so much of Schubert's output—the attempts of a man to understand eternal matters, but, finding himself incapable of consistent faith, contenting himself with writing some of the most gorgeous music of all time and settling for whatever limited prospects of peace on earth he has been afforded while he's here. In Frank Ruppert's book that I mentioned earlier, he interprets Schubert's personality as the "Wanderer" restlessly searching for fulfillment. Our quartet breaks the traditional mold of the Schubertian "happy ending" in which the Wanderer seems to arrive at resolution because unlike most of his works, it ends in a scream of agony rather than with naïve resignation or ecstasy.


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## Carmina Banana

Well said, ABC, as always. I think most commentators see this quartet as at least partly programmatic. To paraphrase one, Death and the Maiden and The Trout might not be completely based on their respective songs, but clearly they have different overall qualities and that can’t just be coincidence. 
I think a lot of how one interprets a musical work has to do with their personality and habits. With me, I often hear something as “absolute” music because I am too lazy to get off the sofa and at least read the record jacket. 
At the same time, I do place some value on learning about the background of a piece and considering how circumstances might have had an effect on its creation.


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## StevehamNY

As epic as this quartet may be (and my lord did it ever inspire some deeply amazing posts this week), and even if it's played to the point of being overplayed (like maybe the string quartet version of Stairway to Heaven), the one thing I know for sure is that this music _demands _an album cover that at least _tries_ to be just as epic:

















And of course you already know the winner:









I won't bore you with all of the placid pondscapes and women fussing with flowers, which are so out of place I honestly wonder if the cover designer had ever heard the music. But I was particularly struck by this cover that Merl pointed out to me, because... I mean...









Is this even a composed photograph? isn't this the first shot you find on the roll of film because the photographer accidentally hit the shutter while the group was milling around and trying to figure out how to pose themselves? Like they're looking at this backwater and asking themselves, _Do we really want to take a picture here?_

I honestly want to find the BIS cover designer in charge of this project, sit him/her down in an interrogation light under a harsh light, and ask him/her to describe the moment he/she said to himself/herself: _Yes! This is the one!_


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## StevehamNY

*If rock albums were released by classical music labels:*


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> *If rock albums were released by classical music labels:*
> 
> View attachment 163033
> 
> 
> View attachment 163035
> 
> 
> View attachment 163034


Those made my drink go up my nose. Hahaha. The last one slayed me.


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## Malx

Merl said:


> Those made my drink go up my nose. Hahaha. The last one slayed me.


Slayed you - how about this one


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## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> Slayed you - how about this one


Ah, the original lineup of the Busch Quartet.


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> *If rock albums were released by classical music labels:*
> 
> View attachment 163033
> 
> 
> View attachment 163035
> 
> 
> View attachment 163034


The Clash's 'London Calling' is priceless!!!!!


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## Josquin13

Since there's been some question raised about it, IMO, the "Death & the Maiden" Quartet is definitely 'programatic'. Schubert didn't compose the sounds of a galloping horse into the third movement (alla Beethoven in his 7th Symphony), turn the fourth movement into a dance of death, and then give the quartet a thematic, literary minded title, if he wasn't thinking programatically. The only question for me is how closely he identified with the maiden, considering his own tragic circumstances. & I'd guess very closely. 

Besides, it was very common in those days for composers to think & write programatically. They all did it. Certainly Beethoven did. & so too did Schumann, & Weber., etc. Even if we don't know what the program was, as was the case with Liszt's Ballade No. 2, for instance, until Claudio Arrau revealed its secret program (i.e., the story of Hero & Leander), which had been common knowledge among Liszt's students. The same is true for Liszt's Sonata in B minor, which we now know is a Faustian drama. Schubert was no different.


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## Merl

Right folks, I seem to think it's my pick (apologies if I'm wrong) so I'm picking something that not everyone will be familiar with. I'm sticking with the Romantic era and going for _*Carl Czerny's String Quartet in D Minor*_, from the mid 1800s.

Known as a piano teacher and also as a pupil of Beethoven, Carl Czerny (1791-1857) enjoys practically no fame as a composer today but in his time this former child prodigy (accepted as a 10 year old by the highly impressed Beethoven as a student) made quite a name for himself in music circles. He was allegedly able to play nearly all of Beethoven's piano works from memory and even performed Beethoven's first Piano Concerto upon the maestro's request. He stayed close to Beethoven until he died, even introducing him to his young pupil, Liszt. The composing maniac (round about 800 published works) acquired great reputation and wealth from piano teaching and educational writing for the piano and other compositions and on his death he left all his fortune to charities (especially one institute for the deaf), his housekeeper and his local music group. By all accounts Czerny was just a genuinely really nice guy and hugely respected by his peers. His (roughly 40) string quartets have only been passed down as manuscripts from Czerny's estate and only a few have been recorded as yet (Czerny was reluctant to publish his string quartets for fear they would damage his reputation). Silly man! Czerny composed in the tradition of Haydn and Beethoven and echoes of Mendelssohn and Schubert can be discerned as well as a romantic style full of drama and expression. 
His String Quartet in D Minor is a lovely 4 movement piece beginning with a feverish Allegro full of drama, ebb and flow. This is my favourite movement of the quartet and a highly inventive one. 
The shorter 2nd movement scherzo, with its stuttering opening of dark scampering rhythms, is softened only briefly by a jolly trio. 
A tender Beethovenian adagio follows with a troubled central theme of nervous, angry tremolos. In the Mendelssohnian finale there's some nice cascading strings and interesting dynamics to complete this highly accomplished piece . Give this a try. If you like the early quartets of Schubert and particularly the quartets of Beethoven and Mendelssohn you'll definitely go for this. For me it's a quartet that deserves to be better known. Only 2 recordings up to now. Both are impressive but I have a clear preference for one of them (I loved it so much I bought it).

Both complete recordings can be found on YouTube or can be streamed if you have a Spotify account but there's links over at the Earsense link below too. 

Earsense link

Recordings

Sheridan Ensemble
St. Lawrence Quartet

Tbh, I could have picked any of his recorded quartets as they are all fine (in my book) but this one is my favourite. If you like this one you'll almost certainly like the others that have been recorded. Hope you enjoy it but if not then no problem (just explain why).

Ps. Malx will be gloating now as he successfully guessed it would be Czerny from the (obvious) clues I gave him when we met up for coffee in the week.


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> Ah, the original lineup of the Busch Quartet.


Second incarnation I think Steve - I believe the original Busch pics were sepia prints!


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## Malx

Haha Merl - easy clues. 
I don't know what that says about my memory as it took a coincidental playing of a disc of horn pieces by Czerny to remind me of his name. I do like his D major quartet which I have as a favourite on Qobuz and will enjoy getting to know the D minor during this week.


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## Merl

Interested to hear what people think of the 2 recorded accounts. Both are quite different in style.


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> Interested to hear what people think of the 2 recorded accounts. Both are quite different in style.


Yes! We should be able to dissect the BLEEP out of these two recordings.


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## Josquin13

Great choice, Merl. I didn't even know Carl Czerny had written string quartets.


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## Merl

Here's the covers of the 2 releases. I'm sure Steve will enjoy the Sheridan pic. Lol.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I (and most other pianists) will always hold a deep grudge against Czerny for those dreadful, banal, repetitive exercises; but here's to hoping this will change my opinion! The only other piece of his that I've heard is his 1st symphony, which I found to be unremarkable and rather student-like (I'll hold that description against myself if I end up liking this quartet).


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Here's the covers of the 2 releases. I'm sure Steve will enjoy the Sheridan pic. Lol.
> 
> View attachment 163069
> 
> View attachment 163070


This Sheridan cover is actually pretty great, I think. It's well composed, it's memorable, and it draws you into a story. Anything left on railroad tracks is implicitly suspenseful, for one thing. And then there's the question of why four suitcases (for a quartet, surely not an accident). My first thought was they were instrument cases, but not unless the group features the world's tiniest violin!


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## SearsPoncho

What a surprise! As ACB mentioned, I only know Czerny as the torturer of piano students (my teacher made me use Hanon) and as a Beethoven scholar, so to speak, because of his association with the composer. First listen. Some random thoughts on each movement, which will surely change by the end of the week:

Movement I: There's a dramatic urgency similar to our last quartet, Schubert's DATM (it actually permeates the entire piece). I'm sure everyone hears the first movement to Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto. Of course, the first movement of Beethoven's 3rd P.C. sounds somewhat like Mozart's 24th P.C. None of that bothers me; it's what a composer does with a theme through development, variations, etc. that interests me most and, ultimately, proves his or her greatness. I found it compelling, but I will need to hear it again to see if it holds up as a convincing, unified work...but ya got my interest! 

Movement II: In the first bar, I thought this was going to break into the Scherzo from Bruckner's 7th. Very Austrian. 

Movement III: Impassioned, ambitious slow movement. Perhaps the most Beethovian movement, with bursts of drama and pathos, not unlike our last quartet, the good ol' DATM. Somewhat, dare I say, "Eroica-like," with the constant build-up of tension and occasional release, utilizing polyphonic writing as Beethoven had in the famous funeral march of the Eroica. 

Movement IV: I've heard that, but where? Almost note-for-note...ah, yes! It's the penultimate movement of Beethoven's Razumovsky String Quartet #2, Op. 59, #2. 

Merl described this one perfectly. No need for me to elaborate. That's a heck of a lot of music to absorb in one listen. I will listen to this one many more times to get a handle on the music, structure and emotion of the entire piece, and hopefully it will click as a unified, compelling work. How do I feel about this surprisingly interesting music? To quote Jack Torrance in his interview to become caretaker of the Overlook Hotel, "I'm intrigued."


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## Merl

Although not a piano player I know you pianists find it hard to forgive him for his "boring, repetitive and sometimes impossible exercises" (a friend's quote) but do give this one a go. It's a much better listen than you might expect. I'm sure some will disagree but whatever I've tried to pick something a little off the beaten track this week. Interestingly one of the SQ recitals I wanted to attend, next month, has this Czerny quartet programmed in (unfortunately its a Tuesday lunchtime) along with a Beethoven op.18 quartet. The period string quartet ensemble playing it reasoned that "Czerny's quartets are sadly unknown or neglected and are full of brio and invention" . I couldnt agree more.


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## Clloydster

I've been gone for a while, and finally have the time to get back on here.

Looks like a simple one to get back in with - only two recordings I can find on Apple Music.


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## Merl

Clloydster said:


> I've been gone for a while, and finally have the time to get back on here.
> 
> Looks like a simple one to get back in with - only two recordings I can find on Apple Music.


Welcome back.........


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Sheridan recording on Sunday and tried the St. Lawrence one on Youtube. I gave up on the latter one because the sound quality was too bad. The Sheridan sound was excellent, though. And the music was a very positive surprise. The first movement sounded a bit Russian to me, I have not yet figured out why. This music is not only pleasant to listen to but has surprising weight. I will have to listen again and will come back with more comments.


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## StevehamNY

Merl, I am thoroughly enjoying this quartet, have listened to the Sheridan's take several times (as well as the rest of that album, which I find just as appealing).

But besides the St. Lawrence, it also appears that the Haydn Quartet recorded the Czerny/D Minor for the Austrian Gramola label:









https://www.gramola.at/en/shop/produkte/streichquartette/gramola/haydn+quartett/pleyel,haydn,werner,czerny/121732/

(Can't find it on any streaming service, unfortunately.)


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## Roger Knox

StevehamNY said:


> This Sheridan cover is actually pretty great, I think. It's well composed, it's memorable, and it draws you into a story. Anything left on railroad tracks is implicitly suspenseful, for one thing. And then there's the question of why four suitcases (for a quartet, surely not an accident). My first thought was they were instrument cases, but not unless the group features the world's tiniest violin!


There's an idea for a way to get rid of luggage that lacks wheels.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, I am thoroughly enjoying this quartet, have listened to the Sheridan's take several times (as well as the rest of that album, which I find just as appealing).
> 
> But besides the St. Lawrence, it also appears that the Haydn Quartet recorded the Czerny/D Minor for the Austrian Gramola label:
> 
> View attachment 163160
> 
> 
> https://www.gramola.at/en/shop/produkte/streichquartette/gramola/haydn+quartett/pleyel,haydn,werner,czerny/121732/
> 
> (Can't find it on any streaming service, unfortunately.)


Great find, Steve. Im going to look around for a version to listen to. I knew nothing about this version.

Edit: the sound clips over at Dodax sound very positive.

https://www.dodax.it/it-it/film-musica-e-giochi/musiche-da-camera/haydn-quartett-haydn-werner-pleyel-czerny-dp5J1K0SNA4UI/

And the finale is on youtube.


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## Carmina Banana

’m enjoying this quartet. At first, I was a bit meh, but after repeated listenings I am starting to really enjoy listening. After playing my share of Czerny etudes, it is so interesting to hear what this composer could really do. It is not unlike playing Clementi sonatinas and then hearing and playing the sonatas. 

I hear the quote(?)Coincidental lick(?) from Beethoven’s 3rd Piano Concerto. Not sure what to make of that. It did cause me to listen to the opening of that concerto and, unfairly I’m sure, realize what a bleeping great piece of music that is compared to this perfectly respectable quartet. 

My take on the two recordings so far,(not including the newly discovered one):
The Sheridan is a better recording in so many ways; more polished, better tempos, better in many technical ways. Yet, I enjoy hearing the St. Lawrence more. Sometimes, a live performance is just more exciting and interesting. Even with the obscene-phone-call-breathing, I still find a lot to enjoy in their performance. 
I’m guessing Merl choose the Sheridan?


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> 'm enjoying this quartet. At first, I was a bit meh, but after repeated listenings I am starting to really enjoy listening. After playing my share of Czerny etudes, it is so interesting to hear what this composer could really do. It is not unlike playing Clementi sonatinas and then hearing and playing the sonatas.
> 
> I hear the quote(?)Coincidental lick(?) from Beethoven's 3rd Piano Concerto. Not sure what to make of that. It did cause me to listen to the opening of that concerto and, unfairly I'm sure, realize what a bleeping great piece of music that is compared to this perfectly respectable quartet.
> 
> My take on the two recordings so far,(not including the newly discovered one):
> The Sheridan is a better recording in so many ways; more polished, better tempos, better in many technical ways. Yet, I enjoy hearing the St. Lawrence more. Sometimes, a live performance is just more exciting and interesting. Even with the obscene-phone-call-breathing, I still find a lot to enjoy in their performance.
> *I'm guessing Merl choose the Sheridan?*


You're guessing right, CB. I'm guessing that wasn't much of a guess, I guess. :tiphat: I don't mind the St Lawrence recording but the sound quality is pants and they lay the vibrato on thick in places. I like the sound of that Haydn Quartett recording, that Steve flagged up, more than the Lawrences. I need to hear all of it


----------



## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> And the finale is on youtube.


I believe this is the first movement? (It's the fourth track on the album, but that's because the Playel piece is tracks 1-3.)

And it sounds pretty good to my untrained ears. Although it's a little more distant in the recording, and the tempo is faster than the Sheridan.


----------



## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I believe this is the first movement? (It's the fourth track on the album, but that's because the Playel piece is tracks 1-3.)
> 
> And it sounds pretty good to my untrained ears. Although it's a little more distant in the recording, and the tempo is faster than the Sheridan.


You know what I mean. My phone and its bloody crap predictive text (first/finale)! That's why all my posts on here are edited. Its favourite 'predictive' spelling is exchanging the perfectly good word 'recording' for that well-known word 're otdong' . If you ever find out what a 're otdong' is please let me know.

(ps. It also constantly replaces the word 'time' with the word 'tine', which I believe is a sharp point). Very annoying.


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## Merl

Merl said:


> You know what I mean. My phone and its bloody crap predictive text (first/finale)! That's why all my posts on here are edited. Its favourite 'predictive' spelling is exchanging the perfectly good word 'recording' for that well-known word 're otdong' . If you ever find out what a 're otdong' is please let me know.
> 
> (ps. It also constantly replaces the word 'time' with the word 'tine', which I believe is a sharp point). Very annoying.


(Pps. Ironically it tried to replace the words 're otdong' with 'recording'. Lol.).


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## Carmina Banana

I’ve been listening to the first movement side by side, Sheridan vs. St. Lawrence. I think I can put my finger on it a bit better. 
The St. Lawrence treats this movement as a dramatic, intense statement from beginning to end. They drive the piece not so much with tempo, but with larger phrases and awareness of the larger structures. As a result, when we get to the ending it has that excitement that you get in some Mendelssohn pieces, when the horses are galloping home and you grab your armchair with anticipation of that rush to the finish. 
The Sheridan has polished all of the doorknobs and fluffed all of the doilies and, as a result, things to tend to get sidetracked. We have some beautiful, light sections amid the drama, and, though I am an admirer of nuance, this first movement is often undercut by its own frilliness. To mix even more metaphors in, it continually runs out of gas and needs to refill before continuing. 
This might be a weakness in the composition as well. The Schubert that we just enjoyed was masterful in how it incorporated movements of lightness and beauty without ever detracting from the unrelenting journey we were on. Czerny almost apologizes at times for being too serious and that might weaken the message.


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## sbmonty

"I hear the quote(?)Coincidental lick(?) from Beethoven’s 3rd Piano Concerto. Not sure what to make of that. It did cause me to listen to the opening of that concerto and, unfairly I’m sure, realize what a bleeping great piece of music that is compared to this perfectly respectable quartet."

I don't know the 3rd concerto well. Could you point out the quote so I can take a listen? Thanks!

Enjoying this quartet. Listening to the Sheridan.


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## SearsPoncho

SBMonty:

The similarity between the 1st movement of the Czerny and the 1st movement of the Beethoven is evident from the first second, but to make it clear, listen to what occurs at the 15th second of this:






Now, listen to what occurs at the 18th second of this:





(It's there from the beginning, but crystal clear, at this point.)

Now, what no one else has mentioned(!):

Listen to the beginning of the finale to Czerny (it's at 25:29 of the same recording above).

And listen to the 3rd movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 59, #2:






Some coincidence, huh?

I'm really enjoying this Czerny. It should be a standard repertoire piece. Why isn't it?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Though it's a couple notches higher than


Allegro Con Brio said:


> unremarkable and rather student-like


; unfortunately, I haven't quite connected with this week's quartet. I admire its linear classical structuring and thoroughly attractive tunesmithery, but there is little distinctive about it to my ears. Like much minor key music from the Classical period, I feel like the attempt at intensity and melancholy is artificial and there's not much to grab my emotions. Hovering stylistically in that no-man's-gap between Mozart and Beethoven, it contains elements of both those composer's youthful styles but IMO fails to reach anywhere near the level of those masters at their best. OK, that all sounds overly harsh, probably more than I intended. It's nice enough for what it is. I can see why Merl and others like the work, but it just didn't grab me much (except for maybe the finale, which was a nice concluding romp). On the plus side, just at the point where I figured that Czerny wasn't going to surprise me with anything in this work, around 4:17 into the third movement on the Sheridan recording, there's a _massive_ sforzando attack that made me think that my headphones flaked out for a brief second. So kudos to both Czerny and the Sheridan for that bit of Haydnesque humor!

As long as I'm here, might as well take care of the housekeeping. *Knorf*, are you still active? If so, it's your turn.

Knorf
calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> SBMonty:
> 
> The similarity between the 1st movement of the Czerny and the 1st movement of the Beethoven is evident from the first second, but to make it clear, listen to what occurs at the 15th second of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, listen to what occurs at the 18th second of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (It's there from the beginning, but crystal clear, at this point.)
> 
> Now, what no one else has mentioned(!):
> 
> Listen to the beginning of the finale to Czerny (it's at 25:29 of the same recording above).
> 
> And listen to the 3rd movement of Beethoven's String Quartet Op. 59, #2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some coincidence, huh?
> 
> I'm really enjoying this Czerny. It should be a standard repertoire piece. Why isn't it?


SP, I did say the finale was very 'Beethovian'. Lol. Seriously, the similarity between the 1st movement the Czerny and the 1st movement of the Beethoven is clear (I didn't hear it as I'm less familiar with the concertos) but tbh how can a guy who knew Beethoven's work inside out, and got to be around the great man, not have absorbed the odd tasty snippet? The Rasumovsky and Czerny finale connection I am less convinced by. Yes it's similar stylistically but it's hardly a direct lift of the melody (like the 1st movement).

As I said at the outset, I really enjoy this quartet. Its got some tremendous ideas and cute melodies within but I also agree that it has a few limitations which are Czerny's not the performers and these manifest themselves in his other quartets. I think it was ACB or CB who mentioned "running out of steam" before. For me that's to do with how Czerny ends or develops his movements. Was this a conscious attempt to NOT sound like Beethoven or was his style just routed in the classical period?

Whatever, I'm glad I picked this one just to improve his standing amongst pianists who still bemoan his exercises. I hope you've all got something from it.


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## Malx

I have only spent time with the Sheridan Ensembles recording as the one Merl mentioned in his opening post sounded dreadful. I was vaguely aware of Czerny's quartets and had flagged up the two disc Sheridan recording in my favourites on my Qobuz account - it was however the D major quartet that had originally caught my attention not the D minor. 

Having listened to the piece a half dozen times or so during the week I find it very easy to like with its obvious Beethovian connections and reckon its a very decent work without being a masterpiece from a highest rank composer.

One thing I am finding is - many quartets that are from composers other than those regarded as being at the top end of the highest division can slightly outstay their welcome by spinning the material a little thin. Czerny maybe has fallen into that particular trap.

Overall I enjoyed the piece for what it is - not groundbreaking, not essential but very pleasing to listen to.


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## HerbertNorman

_Hello, I listened to Alfred Schnittke's third string quartet , played by the Borodin Quartet on wednesday and yesterday I listened to the Kronos quartet playing the second SQ .

I must say I liked the Kronos quartet's interpretation!

Any other recordings of Schnittke's SQs that you guys could recommend? thanks:tiphat:_

Edited by Art Rock: replies can be posted here:
Schnittke SQs


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## Burbage

_It's Friday! So here we are, again._

At the start of this week, the most interesting thing I knew about Czerny was that he's the first Piscean from Austria to feature in our list (though not the first Piscean of Czech parents; that was Smetana). At the end of this week, after spending whole minutes idly glancing through the biographical and autobiographical resources now available to us thanks to the Information Superhighway, it is still the most interesting thing I know about Czerny.

It seems I am not alone. The Cambridge Companion to the String Quartet, in all its hundreds of pages, only mentions Czerny once, and that in relation to the tempo markings on Beethoven's piano sonatas and concertos. Perhaps that's understandable. If your life involves teaching twelve lessons a day and churning out hundreds, if not thousands, of compositions, it'll also involve a fair bit of going to bed early, which doesn't make for a thrilling biography, and though Czerny had plenty of influential friends, including Beethoven (and what pianist doesn't appreciate a deaf friend?), each of them overshadows Czerny himself.

As a result, his his reputation rests not so much on his work as on what other people think of his work, which isn't much, by the look of it. Not, I mean, that they don't think much of it, but they don't seem to think of it much. Not, at any rate, beyond the sprawling corpus of utilitarian didacticism that forms the bulk of his legacy, and it's perhaps worth noting that the people who rate that highly aren't necessarily the same as the people who have to play it. Czerny's albums of pedagogical charmers, as others have noted, are more often imposed rather than discovered, and so rarely kindle warm thoughts. That said, although they're allegedly annoying and tedious, they're still in print, which might tell us something.

It might tell us that they're the pinnacle of educational enterprise that haven't been surpassed in centuries. Or it might tell us that his peers found it easier to praise his work than to do it themselves. In a parallel universe where things had gone differently, we might now be apostrophising Beethoven for his blasted two-finger exercises, while flocking to opera houses to hear Czerny's "Infidelio". But Czerny knew how to earn his living, and seems to have been happy enough doing it, leaving the sparking of revolutions to those who didn't mind risking their reputations and livelihoods, such as his students.

As for the string quartet in question, I gather (albeit from liner-notes) that it was probably written somewhere in the 1850s, ten years after Czerny had given up teaching in favour of composing. And that he classed his string quartets alongside his "serious music", somehow different from his studies and exercises and showboating concert pieces. And that he'd gone some way to preparing them for publication before he upped and died. Which is all promising and excusable enough.

A few listens (Sheridan, mostly) reveals that most of promise is fulfilled. It's all very nicely done, though it's also strangely imitative. As others have mentioned, there are bits reminiscent of Schubert, Beethoven, Mendelssohn and Mozart, and it's not very clear where Czerny is, himself. It's not exactly pastiche, and he weaves it all together expertly, but I'm dogged by the idea that Czerny, rather than having much to say for himself, just wanted to see if he could write quartets.

It turns out he could, but I was put in mind of Korngold's 2nd string quartet, again, which sounds to me like a farewell to Vienna. Here, as daring works by Schumann and Brahms and Berlioz and Saint-Saens were bubbling up around him, Czerny's seems to be clinging on to an era that had been drawing to an end for a while, which chimes with Schumann's barb about Czerny's lack of imagination. But that might be misleading, given Czerny was only five years younger than Spohr who, similarly, bridged the classical and romantic eras in a way that's mostly fallen from public notice. So, I guess, though it might seem faint praise to class this as as good as any of Raff's, or better than any of Gounod's, that's what I mean, even if it's not how I mean it.

Perhaps it'd be better to just say it's dramatic and thoughtful and interesting, which is all I can hope for, as well as anything else that catches my ear and takes me on an entertaining journey. So I'll thank Merl for the idea, park my initial doubts and chalk it up as a win.


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## Merl

Lol, great summary, Burbage. From my own listening, from biographical notes and from what others here have said I think it's fair to say that Czerny was a very accomplished musician and a rather laid-back kind of guy. He was also a lot cannier than many of his contemporaries and amassed a committed bunch of students from the age of 14 (wow!), who recognised his skills on the old Joanna. By all accounts he was well loved and highly respected as a teacher, making a small fortune as a tutor (I read that he lead a very frugal existence too ) so when he dropped off this mortal coil he left rather a lot of money to various causes. I think it's also fair to say, from my own extensive reading on Beethoven, that he was his tutor's favourite pupil (Ries could rub him up the wrong way quite often) as he handled Beethoven's volatile temperament better than almost anyone (he was one of the few people Beethoven ever apologised to) and his status as a pallbearer at Beethoven's funeral, alongside Schubert and Hummel, was testament to this. 

As far as his compositions are concerned, he wrote hundreds 'for the drawer' as study pieces but had a selection of 'serious works', as Burbage pointed out, and this was one of them. The quartets are all very nice (I bought the Sheridan set a few years back) but it's fair to say that he didn't quite find his own voice in them. It's in there but he never quite 'went for it' and I believe this was because he didn't want to sound like his biggest influence and mentor. He wore his influences on his sleeve so there's lots of Mozart, Schubert, Haydn, Mendelssohn and especially Beethoven in there but he does it well and with more abandon in development his quartets could have been top rank but I don't think he was too worried about that. We have Czerny to thank for many of Beethoven's metronome marks and information about the composer. He spent many hours discussing tempo with old Ludwig and had studied the great man so completely that he could not only play most of his compositions from memory but was able to imitate his style of playing. He didn't do this, though (in fact he did the opposite and was even chastised by LvB for improvising too much when playing his mentor's music). There's some written and anecdotal references to this via Ries and Czerny online) and to Ries' aping of Beethoven's style (Beethoven hated him doing that either subconsciously or on purpose). As I said earlier his SQs are definitely being recognised more and a local recital in Dundee or Perth next month has one of his quartets programmed (that's the Fitzroy Quartet gig, Malx, if youre interested). 

I eagerly await Knorf's pick this weekend.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I listened to the quartet by Czerny in the car through the week and really liked it. I preferred the Sheridans. Maybe some comments on his style is due to the music being unperformed since forever...Beethoven, Schubert, Mozart and Mendelssohn do have an advantage over "arpeggio exercise man".


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## FastkeinBrahms

Sorry I did not have the time to listen a second time to this discovery this week. Funnily, it actually even made me play a few of Czerny's Etudes de mecanisme after having avoided him like death for thirty years. And I even enjoyed them! What did you do to me, Merl?


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## Carmina Banana

Since the topic of Czerny and metronome markings has come up, does anyone follow Wim Winters and his theory of historical metronome usage? I won’t link to a video but if you go to his YouTube page, AuthenticSound, you will find he is obsessed with this topic. Apparently, we have been playing everything twice too fast, including Czerny exercises. Winters has piles of evidence for this and it is a fascinating idea. In a nutshell, he asserts that we are playing with ticks and tocks and we should really only play with the ticks. The early users of the metronome considered one unit to be a complete trip of the pendulum back and forth but we consider a unit to be a trip to the right or left. He made a video about Czerny’s markings for his etudes and shows that only a computer can play them as fast as indicated and it sounds ridiculous. And many of these were for novice young pianists! He has several videos in which he surveys all of the commercial recordings of a piece such as a Chopin etude and finds that even the greatest pianists don’t even come close to the composers tempo indication if we use our current interpretation of metronomic speed. He pours over primary source materials and finds evidence of composers describing how to use a metronome. It is not just a crazy idea, but supported by documentation.


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## Merl

Apologies if this sounds harsh, CB, but Winters has been totally discredited by every major Beethoven scholar (and nearly every classical scholar). Beethoven's symphonies sound utterly ridiculous played at Winter's pedestrian speeds (think of Maximianno Cobra and his 2 hour Beethoven 9th - that we know is wrong from performance times). His 'evidence' includes taking quotes out of context, cringy pseudo theories like ''people used to have slower minds before the invention of electricity'' (Hahaha ha! - utterly preposterous) and avoiding the absolute mountain of counter evidence. Think of all the pieces that would sound awful at half the tempo! Winters argues that performance practice has speeded up when EVERYONE knows that's its slowed down. Rather than playing works slower we should be playing them faster! He avoids real evidence such as actual quotes of composers saying how long their pieces should last (which fit in with the tempo), recorded concert times of performances (which fit in with tempo markings) actual recordings of 19th century composers and their students who play just as fast or even faster than modern performances, actual historical instructions showing how to use a metronome and a complete lack of any documentation of a 'double beat theory' ever being discussed. His idea that Czerny and Beethoven couldnt read a metronome properly is just plain stupid. Please don't give the man any creedence. He's just a YouTube charlatan trying to make a name for himself.


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## Carmina Banana

Merl,
Usually I resent being shot down. 
In this case, however, I love it hearing that this theory has detractors (so no apologies needed). Though I find it interesting, I could never subscribe to it. None of my musicians have heard Winter’s work (not that surprising) and I haven’t read any attacks on him in scholarly Beethoven works (but I am by no means keeping up with recent work in the field). It is a relief to hear that he has been discredited because if everyone had to dial back tempos that much classical/romantic music would pretty dreary.
If you have any examples of a critique of this guy, let me know.
The fact remains, however, that many tempos recommended by composers are impossible. So either, Winters is correct and music has sped up over the years (in which case, our taste has simply changed which is as valid as anything) or composers have given tempos that are out of reach as a means of saying, “play this as fast as you want, but do not, by any means drag.” I believe Schumann says at one point in the g minor sonata, “As fast as possible.” In other words, there is no extreme too extreme. This is in keeping with some music that almost has to be simplified to be played. There is a pianist well-know for Brahms playing who was heard to say, “you don’t actually try to play those notes, do you?” There is little harm in setting goals a little too high. 
I felt a little guilty bringing up Wim Winters, because it is uncomfortably like a conspiracy theory. I was hoping it would get a heated response or two.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> Merl,
> Usually I resent being shot down.
> In this case, however, I love it hearing that this theory has detractors (so no apologies needed). Though I find it interesting, I could never subscribe to it. None of my musicians have heard Winter's work (not that surprising) and I haven't read any attacks on him in scholarly Beethoven works (but I am by no means keeping up with recent work in the field). It is a relief to hear that he has been discredited because if everyone had to dial back tempos that much classical/romantic music would pretty dreary.
> If you have any examples of a critique of this guy, let me know.
> The fact remains, however, that many tempos recommended by composers are impossible. So either, Winters is correct and music has sped up over the years (in which case, our taste has simply changed which is as valid as anything) *or composers have given tempos that are out of reach as a means of saying, "play this as fast as you want, but do not, by any means drag."* I believe Schumann says at one point in the g minor sonata, "As fast as possible." In other words, there is no extreme too extreme. This is in keeping with some music that almost has to be simplified to be played. There is a pianist well-know for Brahms playing who was heard to say, "you don't actually try to play those notes, do you?" There is little harm in setting goals a little too high.
> I felt a little guilty bringing up Wim Winters, because it is uncomfortably like a conspiracy theory. I was hoping it would get a heated response or two.


Lol, nps CB. The Winters stuff has been going on for quite a few years now so just a quick internet search will yield a myriad of debunking articles. Personally, I think the man is just a charlatan. As I highlighted in bold in your previous post, I think that composers purposely set quick tempos as many hate their compositions being played (this is particularly true of Beethoven who made many references to his dislike of slow performances of his music). In all seriousness, you just have to use your ears and listen to the pieces played at Winter's speeds to realise thst they sound 'wrong' (not in relation to what we are accustomed to but as stand-alone pieces) but there is plenty of evidence from Liszt (especially) and others who said how long their works lasted. There is also no chance that *everyone* has been playing everything double-speed since the 19th century and no-one noticed! We know from what Weingartner and many others wrote on performance that speeds have slowed a lot, not increased. Winters cherrypicks random quotes about tempi of the time but forgets we have actual recorded concert timings from the 19th century (George Smart et al) which do not support any of his arguments that tempi have changed appreciably. He constantly deletes any comments on his channels when such information is brought up. We also have historical recordings from the generation of Liszt pupils and first-hand accounts of Liszt's playing and of Saint-Saens (both of whom he applies his silly theory to).


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## Carmina Banana

I agree with everything you say. It is an extreme viewpoint and doesn't fit with common sense. 
But isn't fun to entertain outlandish theories? You have to give credit to the guy for sticking to his guns.


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## StevehamNY

^ So it's actually possible for an _idea_ to be discussed and largely discredited without the whole thing turning into, well, see any other forum besides this one, anywhere on the Internet.

Thank you, my friends!


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## Carmina Banana

StevehamNY said:


> ^ So it's actually possible for an _idea_ to be discussed and largely discredited without the whole thing turning into, well, see any other forum besides this one, anywhere on the Internet.
> 
> Thank you, my friends!


Things get heated in real life as well. I will never forget being at a music conference and someone stood up and said (I won't remember exactly) "It is well known that oboes were introduced into these regional orchestras as early as the 1720s not the 1730s." And then another guy stood up, "There you go again, Gerald, spreading lies and disinformation." You could tell these two had been sparring for years over the same point. I really felt that it could have escalated to physical violence at any point. I found the whole thing hilarious probably just because they were so deadly serious.


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## StevehamNY

Carmina Banana said:


> Things get heated in real life as well. I will never forget being at a music conference and someone stood up and said (I won't remember exactly) "It is well known that oboes were introduced into these regional orchestras as early as the 1720s not the 1730s." And then another guy stood up, "There you go again, Gerald, spreading lies and disinformation." You could tell these two had been sparring for years over the same point. I really felt that it could have escalated to physical violence at any point. I found the whole thing hilarious probably just because they were so deadly serious.


I am reminded of this memorable incident as reported by the Daily Mail:

A fight at the Opera Ball! White tie-clad gents trade punches at Vienna's premier social event

My favorite part was the caption beneath the lead photograph:








*Take that, sir! The altercation's most talked about moment came when one of the brawlers managed to throw a swinging hook with his right hand without spilling a drop of champagne from the glass in his left*


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## Knorf

Alright. Sorry I've been pretty inactive recently. Czerny is cool, better than he's usually given credit for, and a really nice choice. Thanks, Merl.

Here's mine:

*Mario Lavista*: String Quartet No. 4 "Sinfonías" (1996)

Duration: 16'31

As far as I know, there is only one recording of this quartet, by the Cuarteto Latinoamericano. You can hear it here:
https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Mario-Lavista-String-Quartet-No-4-Sinfonias/

Mario Lavista was a wonderful Mexican composer, one with whom I was personally acquainted. I met him when the Cuarteto Latinoamericano had a short residence at the school of music where I did my master's degree (yes, where I also got to know Shulamit Ran, coincidentally), and he happened to be in the area as well and so paid us a visit. I heard the quartet perform Mario's wonderful String Quartet No. 2, "Reflejos de la noche" (1984) at the time.

Mario and I took a liking to one another and had some terrific conversations; one memorable and jolly evening included copious amounts of beer with the members of the Cuarteto Latinoamericano and one or two other gradate students and composition professors.

Mario was kind enough to give me a copy of his amazing composition for solo bassoon and two percussionists, entitled _Responsorio in memoriam Rodolfo Halffter_. I did perform this beautiful piece much later, on a faculty recital, but sadly couldn't really use the recording because the second percussionist got lost.

Mario Lavista was a really lovely man, and I regret not staying in touch with him much better than I did. I was just thinking of reconnecting, actually, when on Nov. 4, 2021 I heard that he had died.

Of his compositions I know, besides the _Responsorio_, I think the String Quartet No. 4 is best suited for taking a moment to remember him: his kind eyes, his polite manner, his copious patience with over-eager graduate composition students. And of course his ear for a world of sounds not really like anyone else.


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## Merl

Nice story and tribute, Knorf. I've sadly never heard of him so should be interesting.


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## sbmonty

Lovely Knorf. Looking forward to listening.


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## StevehamNY

Knorf,

On a busy weekend, I've been enjoying this music as I drift off to sleep at night. An ideal way to listen to something with such otherworldly qualities. 

If I didn't know anything about it and were guessing blindly, I would have definitely said post-modern, and maybe even a little neo-Romantic? I may have even guessed something from one of the Generation 51-era Polish composers, which would have obviously been way off, but hey, music right?

I'm fumbling to find the right language, as usual, but I just wanted to thank you for turning us on to this. (Even as I realize it probably won't be for everyone.) Your personal connection to the composer just makes it a little extra special, and I like to think that the genuine humanity you ascribe to him comes through in the music itself.

EDIT: Okay, listening to some of the other quartets. I like them just as much, but "neo-Romantic" is a stretch! Maybe neo-Romantic on another planet?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Back from holidays, and a very interesting selection to come back to this lovely thread!


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## StevehamNY

By the way, the Cuarteto Latinoamericano's complete set of quartets is available on Spotify, Qobuz, and Apple Music (not on Amazon or Tidal, unsure of any others). And if you want to explore a little further, the second quartet was also recorded by the Brodskys.


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## Knorf

I think I'll excerpt some important statements from the booklet program notes, which otherwise appear difficult to find.

*Problem booklet notes by Ana R. Alonso-Minutti*
"The commission to write [the String Quartet No. 4, "_Sinfonías_"] came from Joan Niles Sears, a devotee of new-music concerts from Ithaca, who was exposed to Lavista's music through a performance by the Cuarteto Latinoamericano. What Niles Sears asked from Lavista was to write a piece that could accompany her soul after her death-and years later, Mrs. Sears's wishes came true, since this piece was performed at her memorial concert at the Barnes Hall of Cornell University in 2010. Lavista's music was a farewell offering to a woman who for decades supported contemporary art.

The subtitle, _Sinfonías_, refers to practice of polyphonic singing described in the earliest western music treatises. Lavista takes as a point of departure an example of early polyphony found in the [ninth-century] Scholica Enchiradis ...

The single movement of _Sinfonías_ is built from distinct sections, some of which present a recollection of passages from previous works, in particular from [Lavista's] _Missa ad Consolationis Dominam Nostum_, _Reflejos de la Noche_ (String Quartet No. 2), and _Cuaderno de viaje_. The organum taken from the _Scolica Enchiriadis_ appears twice...Lavista transform the melodic line of the organum by altering the succession of tones and semitones...The texture of _Sinfonías_ is evocative and contemplative. The frequent use use of harmonics, trills, and the alteration between _pizzicato_, _arco_, and _sul ponticello_ become a 'sonorous mist' heard from afar, as the initial indication in the score suggests ["_Lento, da lontano, come una bruma sonora_"]. The inclusion of quotations from previous musical material composed by Lavista makes this quartet a space for personal reflection."

The following should suffice for a biographical sketch of this excellent composer, who was one of the most important post-war names in Mexico in classical music: http://composers21.com/compdocs/lavistam.htm

I concur with those who have remarked that his style is difficult to pin down. It's one of the qualities I admire about Mario's music. He always sought for directness of connectivity to the audience and in musical expression, and also musical concision. Most of his music is quite short, in fact. In terms of connectivity and expressiveness, he also never sought nor desired to pretend that the 20th century and post-war avant garde never happened. This was a point I recall that we really agreed on in our conversations: while neither he nor I ever really wrote "avant garde" music, nevertheless we both like[d] quite a lot of it, and borrow[ed] ideas or techniques from the avant garde as often as it seemed necessary. Certainly he (and I) rejected any notion of simply writing harmony in nothing by triads followed by patting ourselves on the back for supposedly writing what audiences want, supposedly "from the heart," despite the very obvious contrivances. He wanted (as I want) music that connected, but also challenged, and certainly remained contemporary, but above all was sincere in its creativity.


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## SearsPoncho

Am I the only one that would like to hear a "Knorf" quartet? Maybe it's posted in another section of the forum, but I would be very interested to hear Knorf's music. 

By the way, I enjoyed the quartet. The biographical info Knorf provided was valuable; it did sound like music to describe or convey a transcendent event. It really had me from the beginning (especially the beginning!), and I enjoyed the different sonorities. I liked the ending, which sounded like all instruments finally reaching for the same note, in perfect peace and unanimity. Of course, I'm probably wrong about that, but it would be fitting considering the occasion the quartet was written for. I know a lot of people believe that if Debussy were alive in the late 20th century, he would sound something like Takemitsu, but I think he would be closer to the aesthetic of this composer: modern, daring music of its time which uses a wide variety of timbre and instrumental effects and still manages to sound like it has a spine and purpose rather than being some vague, hazy gobbledygook.* In other words, there are bones in that fish. I heard a lot of different influences (even folk music), but one clear voice - the voice of the composer. Fascinating.

*This is not meant as an insult to Takemitsu. I have recordings of some of his music and enjoy them.


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## FastkeinBrahms

Knorf said:


> I think I'll excerpt some important statements from the booklet program notes, which otherwise appear difficult to find.
> 
> *Problem booklet notes by Ana R. Alonso-Minutti*
> "The commission to write [the String Quartet No. 4, "_Sinfonías_"] came from Joan Niles Sears, a devotee of new-music concerts from Ithaca, who was exposed to Lavista's music through a performance by the Cuarteto Latinoamericano. What Niles Sears asked from Lavista was to write a piece that could accompany her soul after her death-and years later, Mrs. Sears's wishes came true, since this piece was performed at her memorial concert at the Barnes Hall of Cornell University in 2010. Lavista's music was a farewell offering to a woman who for decades supported contemporary art.
> 
> The subtitle, _Sinfonías_, refers to practice of polyphonic singing described in the earliest western music treatises. Lavista takes as a point of departure an example of early polyphony found in the [ninth-century] Scholica Enchiradis ...
> 
> The single movement of _Sinfonías_ is built from distinct sections, some of which present a recollection of passages from previous works, in particular from [Lavista's] _Missa ad Consolationis Dominam Nostum_, _Reflejos de la Noche_ (String Quartet No. 2), and _Cuaderno de viaje_. The organum taken from the _Scolica Enchiriadis_ appears twice...Lavista transform the melodic line of the organum by altering the succession of tones and semitones...The texture of _Sinfonías_ is evocative and contemplative. The frequent use use of harmonics, trills, and the alteration between _pizzicato_, _arco_, and _sul ponticello_ become a 'sonorous mist' heard from afar, as the initial indication in the score suggests ["_Lento, da lontano, come una bruma sonora_"]. The inclusion of quotations from previous musical material composed by Lavista makes this quartet a space for personal reflection."
> 
> The following should suffice for a biographical sketch of this excellent composer, who was one of the most important post-war names in Mexico in classical music: http://composers21.com/compdocs/lavistam.htm
> 
> I concur with those who have remarked that his style is difficult to pin down. It's one of the qualities I admire about Mario's music. He always sought for directness of connectivity to the audience and in musical expression, and also musical concision. Most of his music is quite short, in fact. In terms of connectivity and expressiveness, he also never sought nor desired to pretend that the 20th century and post-war avant garde never happened. This was a point I recall that we really agreed on in our conversations: while neither he nor I ever really wrote "avant garde" music, nevertheless we both like[d] quite a lot of it, and borrow[ed] ideas or techniques from the avant garde as often as it seemed necessary. Certainly he (and I) rejected any notion of simply writing harmony in nothing by triads followed by patting ourselves on the back for supposedly writing what audiences want, supposedly "from the heart," despite the very obvious contrivances. He wanted (as I want) music that connected, but also challenged, and certainly remained contemporary, but above all was sincere in its creativity.


This is extremely helpful. I asked myself about the choice of title, as I could not discover anything symphonic or anything close to other "sinfonias" when listening to this wonderful contemplative piece. " Bruma sonora - Sonorous mist " is an apt term but I did not just like the sound but also the progression of speed from the slow-moving "mist" to the more animated part with lots of pizzicato. The return to slowness makes the piece feel almost cyclical although that realization comes only at the very end.

I also really liked the Responsorio in memoriam to Rodolfo Halffter, which I added to my playlist. What a great combination of instruments!


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## Malx

I loved the introductory background information and personal connection that Knorf has with piece and because of that I really did want to find the work to my liking.

I have now listened through five times and fear I am getting no closer to liking the piece than first listen. I'm sure it is a very decent work when viewed by those who can discern the structure and inner workings of a quartet better than I but I just don't seem to find anything I am connecting with.

I'm going to give it a break for a couple of days and will return to it later in the week.


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## Merl

Im finding this an intriguing listen. Normally it wouldnt really be for me but ive listened a few times through now and nothing has me running, screaming towards the exit but inversely nothing much has hooked me in. I'll give it a few more goes to see if anything sticks.


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## Carmina Banana

I have been looking forward to hearing this, but couldn’t carve out the time to do it until now.
This is a beautiful piece! 
At this point in my life, I am mostly interested in music that makes me feel good and is somehow nourishing to my soul. This is music that gives me a sense of wonderment. It reminds me of stumbling onto a place in nature that is alive with fascinating plants and insects. Or suddenly seeing the night sky and all of its glittering stars with fresh awe. 
It was very interesting to hear about your conversations with the composer, Knorf. I am especially struck by the part about how to deal with the innovations during the 20th century—acknowledging all of it without necessarily embracing a certain school of composition. It is interesting how the materials one might use can be relatively “ordinary” but the use of those materials still produces a unique work of art. Nobody is attacking a cello with a power saw here, but but the music is still unlike anything I have heard. When the pizzicati came in at a certain point, they were like little splashes in a pond. There is nothing strange about plucking strings in a string quartet but somehow they way it happened was very striking for me.
Overall, very evocative for me. 
It is interesting to consider how a composer hears music differently from a non-musician, etc. This might be a question we could pursue. I am doing a little presentation in the near future about how classical musicians can benefit from improvisation—it changes one’s perspective so dramatically! Likewise, I think being a composer changes one’s perspective as a listener. I heard an interview with a composer once and I was struck by a comment he made. “I think everyone should be a composer,” he said excitedly. I agree with that.


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## starthrower

Thanks for this one, Knorf! I'm glad to be introduced to Mr. Lavista's work. I've listened to a few other quartets with this contemplative, textural style that I find attractive but this piece had a bit more warmth and soul for me. That little three note motif got me thinking that I've heard something like this before and after a few minutes it dawned on me. It reminds me of a beautiful piece by the late multi-instrumentalist, Roland Kirk. The tune is called The Inflated Tear. The Toccata Classics CD looks interesting so I'll have to give the full CD a listen.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I don't think I can express my reaction to this ear-tickling piece nearly as eloquently as Carmina Banana did, so this will be brief. What lovely imagination! The music expands in all possible directions from a stable point of light like an infinite series of prisms; it's really quite remarkable how much variety is gleaned by having so many tones and sonorities swarm around a fixed pitch. It reminds me of some of Ligeti's more impressionistic pieces like _Lontano_, and succeeds in its quasi-minimalistic goals without IMO sounding like pure ambient music like what I thought the Cage quartet sounded like. It's not overtly "thorny" or "academic" (or however you want to describe the more extreme avant-gardists) but challenges our conceptions of what organized sound can do while communicating exciting and convincing visions of beauty and color within a concise, controlled package. To me, that's what the best contemporary music does. Very glad to have made this discovery, Knorf.

*Calvinpv*, are you out there? Current schedule:

calvinpv
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Malx

I'm sorry to say after returning to this quartet again this morning I am still not connecting with the music, my problem no doubt - however on a more positive note I am enjoying listening to Lavista's quartet no 5.


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## Burbage

_Well, seeing as it's Friday..._

The inestimable website GoodReads carries no reviews for _"The First One-Hundred Years of Town Planning in Georgia"_ which, given it was first published some 42 years ago, suggests it has yet to encounter a generation of readers to which it has appealed. It would be hard to argue, given the title and subject matter, that it was in any sense ahead of its time and, though it seems unrivalled in the genre, and copies can still be had, the author was careful to select a genre in which she had few rivals, which can be a double-edged sword.

Happily the author and her dependents (Miss Chilly-Wilkens and little Tom-Tom) don't seem to have been solely reliant on the activity of indolent booksellers and were able to support themselves, and their tastes in art, white wine and roses, regardless. Which is good news for us, as another of these indulgences was contemporary music. The author in question was, of course, Joan Niles Sears, and it was she who commissioned Mario Lavista's fourth string quartet, apparently "to accompany her soul after death"; the cats, if cats they were, presumably preferring not to.

At the time of the commissioning, her soul wasn't going anywhere and, for at least a dozen more years, was firmly planted in Ithaca, New York. Ithaca is a smallish city, about two miles across, about a thousand miles from it's Georgian namesake, with the expected plethora of churches and dentists vying for its real estate. The city is sited at the end of the finger-like Cayuga Lake, one of a handful that gesture desperately north to Lake Ontario and the Canadian border and is most famous as a college town, hosting Cornell University, which has a vibrant music department in which, perhaps, Niles Sears and Lavista may have met.

It might seem surprising to Europeans, who jealously guard nationalities barely twenty yards apart, to find a Mexican composer writing for a customer 2,500 miles adrift, though Haydn, stuck in dismal Esterhaza, managed a commission from Cadiz, 1,900 miles away, over 200 years before, and Lavista seems to have taken for his inspiration a ninth-century ancient manuscript that, though now in Germany, might have been written almost anywhere in Europe or North Africa. Whatever Lavista was, he seems to given national and linguistic borders as much shrift as Haydn had.

I don't know much Mexican chamber music at all, so I began by listening to his forbears, Alfredo Carrasco and Alfonso de Elias, who seem to have paid strong homage to the European music of perhaps half a century before with works I'd best describe as romantic to the point of gloopy. After that, Lavista's quartet came as a piquant surprise especially, like the one (and only) Mexican wine I've tasted, as it seemed so happy to be doing its own thing. I was, after the build-up, expecting something perhaps derivative, or along the lines of Malipiero, but the 'sonorous mist' seems a thing in itself. Not to say I haven't heard things a bit like it in the work of others, but here it succeeds. The open-strings and microtones have an anticipatory feel, like a band tuning up; all very meditative and, I guess, what others might call 'ambient', until the rhythmic patterns emerge, followed by the chorale-like motifs that underpin the rest of the piece. How much it owes to the _Scolica Enchiriadis_, I don't know, as I don't understand a word of that, let alone any of the symbols, but the quartet has a consciously ancient feel, and the curious ornamentation gives it a timeless quality that seems appropriate for the commission, though it doesn't sound ancient at all.

Apparently, the piece also quotes from other works by Lavista, though what struck me was the way it quoted from itself, and how every section managed to sound different and nostalgic, all very connected to the sections before, which makes it, if not exactly 'easy listening', easy to listen to. And, though it uses 'extended string techniques', it seems to stick to the conventional ones, those that have, over the centuries, become part of the vocabulary. So, though it's a surprising piece to me, it seems written with great respect for the players and their instruments, and that always seems to work better.

Although my soul isn't planning to go anywhere soon, I enjoyed listening to this, and some of other distinctive work (Javier Alvarez seems fun) I found in my brief rummage through Mexico. Though, unlike the world's other bibliophiles, I found it hard to keep Georgia off my mind.


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## starthrower

A fascinating bit of history, Burbage! And your description of this quartet with its gradual development is spot on.


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## Allegro Con Brio

If we don't hear back from Calvin by late tomorrow, would you be willing to step in, *Malx*? Thanks.


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> If we don't hear back from Calvin by late tomorrow, would you be willing to step in, *Malx*? Thanks.


If you can give me a few hours ACB - I'm just home after assembling some IKEA furniture for my daughter!


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## Merl

Malx said:


> If you can give me a few hours ACB - I'm just home after assembling some IKEA furniture for my daughter!


Bloody hell, Malc, its not that difficult! Anyone would think you'd been launching a rocket to the moon not chucking together some furniture with allen keys and writing Beethoven (insert quartet here) in this thread! í ½í¸‰


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## Malx

Allen keys? Is that why using my screwdriver took so long, doh


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## Merl

Malx said:


> Allen keys? Is that why using my screwdriver took so long, doh


You don't need a screwdriver for IKEA furniture. Unless it's the really posh stuff (>£50).


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## Malx

Hopefully I will not step on calvin's toes by posting my selection a bit earlier than perhaps ACB suggested.

*Holmboe, String Quartet No 15*

This quartet was composed in 1978, and can be linked to quartets 14 & 16 which all share a motif that had become a bit of an earworm for Holmboe. The motif a short 'seagulls cry' is first heard at the beginning of the opening movement and then utilised in various ways throughout the work.

A concise piece that benefits from multiple listens - as indeed most do.

I am only aware of two current recordings, I will be happy to be corrected if there are more - the Kontra Quartet and the Nightingale Quartet both on the Da Capo label, both of which are available on Qobuz and Spotify.

Here is an extract from the sleeve notes of the Nightingales disc and a link to the first movement on YouTube where all the other movements are also available.

'In the masterly and very concise String Quartet No. 15 the motif in the first movement is not just a melody, but a core with countless possibilities. The motif can be unfurled, change character and function, step into the foreground or the background, and so on. To counter the 'seagull's cry', Holmboe places a running figure in semiquavers, which towards the end widens out in quavers. In that form, it becomes the starting point for the next movement, a short *scherzo, which is played with mutes. At the peak of the movement, the quaver figure becomes an accentuation of the crotchets, before the movement falls to pieces.

The third movement - rather unexpectedly - is a slow funeral procession. It opens with lamentations in the primo violin and the cello before all four voices gather in a subdued little chorale and thereafter help one another to calm things down. The instruments remain muted in the fourth movement, which begins slowly with echoes of themes from the third movement. The entire work is thus interconnected from movement to movement. Thereafter the mutes are removed, and a quick finale tempo gets underway. In the movement's coda, the 'seagull's cry' returns for a final remark before the free tonal sequence lands on a many-coloured chord above the keynote C. An ambiguous ending that acts as an opening to even more new works.'






I hope you all enjoy.


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## SearsPoncho

Hmm...I enjoyed it as an early Schoenberg meets Janacek-type piece, and then I realized it was the 1st movement to the 1st quartet. I had a feeling something was up cause you described it as concise, but the first movement was over 10 minutes long. :lol:


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## starthrower

SearsPoncho said:


> Hmm...I enjoyed it as an early Schoenberg meets Janacek-type piece, and then I realized it was the 1st movement to the 1st quartet. I had a feeling something was up cause you described it as concise, but the first movement was over 10 minutes long. :lol:


Doh! Time to start over. I too was listening to the wrong one. But I took a liking to that first movement.


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## Malx

Sorry guys mea culpa.

But hey if you like the first quartet as well then Holmboe may well be the winner.


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## StevehamNY

I picked up the complete Kontra set on a whim, but for whatever reason the music seemed to keep me at arm's length and I haven't listened to it much since. Now I'm glad for this good excuse to try again!


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> I picked up the complete Kontra set on a whim, but for whatever reason the music seemed to keep me at arm's length and I haven't listened to it much since. But now I'm glad for this good excuse to try again!


I too have the Kontra set and find Holmboe can be difficult but more often than not I get there with a bit of perserverance. However the Nightingales, for me, make a stronger case for the quartets they have recorded.

I believe they are intending to record the full set.


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## Merl

As I said when we looked at the Holmboe 4th Quartet, ages ago, I've never connected with his music even though I have the Kontra recordings (which I never play). I didn't feel any love for the 4th and didn't even do a review for it on my blog but this seems better on initial listen. The early quartets I harshly described as 'poor Bartok' back in this thread but the later ones are definitely less spiky (and I'd say more to my liking). Let's see how this pans out. Interesting choice Malxster! If I like it I may buy you a set of allen keys to celebrate.


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## StevehamNY

While acknowledging the risks of making simple geographic/nationalistic assumptions about a composer's soundworld, if you close your eyes and imagine this quartet being debuted in either of these two cities, which one feels like the right home?


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Sorry guys mea culpa.
> 
> But hey if you like the first quartet as well then Holmboe may well be the winner.


Great choice. I too started listening to the wrong one - I immediately dived into #16! 15 is a superb work. I have the Kontra set. I remember reading the reviews of the Nightingale when it was released, the view being it was the superior set. I'm very happy with the Contra* so I shan't be spending any more money. Holmboe works take a long time to sink in, whether they are the symphonies or the quartets. I've 75% cracked the symphonies and about 40% the string quartets. It's taken just over 20 years, so far!


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> While acknowledging the risks of making simple geographic/nationalistic assumptions about a composer's soundworld, if you close your eyes and imagine this quartet being debuted in either of these two cities, which one feels like the right home?
> 
> View attachment 163610
> 
> 
> View attachment 163611


I take your point Steve - but I'd maybe find an image that was somewhere in between.


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## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> I take your point Steve - but I'd maybe find an image that was somewhere in between.


Fair enough, Malx. Maybe Copenhagen on a sunny day?

(Been there for that and it's quite lovely!)


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## Merl

I'm definitely enjoying this one far more than his 4th quartet, we tried some time ago. It retains some of the angularity of that but this quartet seems to be of a purpose. Cohesively it makes more sense to me - there's a natural flow through this work. Interpretively, of the two recordings there's little between them. One is fuller and more mysterious, the other leaner, more incisive and better recorded. Both are high quality recordings, expertly played and highly recommendable. I have a slight preference for one that I feel just says a little more about the music but tbh I'd be happy with both these recordings.


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## HerbertNorman

Thanks for this recommendation, I'm listening to the Kontra recording too. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, the pieces need to grow on you. I'm actually getting to know the SQs better now , as I started off with his symphonic output, which I know quite well now.
I prefer this one to the 4th too...


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## Merl

I'm enjoying this one, still. Posted a Holmboe SQ15 blog review (for the two recordings, lol).


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## Merl

Poor Malx. His Holmboe Quartet pick has really suffered this week due to the server issues.


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## Allegro Con Brio

It appears as if TC is out of the operating room for the time being! Since I couldn't access the site for about 2 days, I feared it was a victim of some sort of attack, but hopefully things are now mostly resolved.

Holmboe's music has, unfortunately, yet to click with me at all. There are some interesting ideas, but I find the music to sound largely dry, un-melodic, and dour. Honestly, most Scandinavian music outside of Sibelius and Nielsen leaves me a bit cold. I can understand why people like him-there are some sharply-sprung dance rhythms and earthy Bartokian harmonies, but overall I find the music to lack emotion and connection. The concision and compaction of the work is admirable, though.

*BlackAdderLXX*, are you still around?

BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## starthrower

Merl said:


> Poor Malx. His Holmboe Quartet pick has really suffered this week due to the server issues.


Yes, unfortunate. It's taken me more than half dozen attempts just to get one post through. I'll try to stay tuned in here if I'm able, in case blackadder doesn't get on to choose a quartet.


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## Burbage

_As it's not Friday, here it is:_

I remember 1977, albeit vaguely. I was a child of those times and, as a result, received an unstinting education in how much better things had been in the 1960s, now that anything that was fun was going to kill you, unless the taxes got you first. But still, at least we had the civil defence sirens; an audible connection to a time before post-war optimism had crumbled.

Away from the energy crises, economic collapses and water shortages - or perhaps not - Malcolm Arnold was being grouchy, Rochberg ironic, Britten tired and angry, Panufnik numerological, Dutilleux stargazey and Tippett demanding. Nobody was quite set on any direction, and the avant-garde was still being serial, though their electrics were getting better, while the remaining establishment fragmented into tonal and atonal academic factions, with occasional forays into whatever esoterica seemed popular at the time. It was the Age of Anxiety in orange corduroy.

In Denmark, nothing much was happening, in much the way it usually does, and even their world-beating troll-making industry was suffering a peaceful decline. And in it sat Vagn Holmboe, smoking his pipe and writing a quartet.

The motivation behind this specific quartet, which it shares with its eight predecessors, is probably best explained by the composer himself who, in Jens Cornelius' re-telling, put it thus:

_"The Copenhagen String Quartet's playing is so wonderful that one simply cannot desist from writing for them. And when they say: 'Well, just write!', then I write a couple of quartets, and then I say:
'Don't you have enough now?' 'No, just write', they answer. And then I write a couple more, and in that way quartets come about."_

Perhaps it's because I'm a miserable and embittered old cynic (or a person of vague self-employment, should there be any difference), but I'm not wholly satisfied that this explanation of the creative process is as full and frank as it might be. But it is, as they say, what it is. And, as my dear mother used to say back then, that's all we'll be getting and so we'll be grateful for it.

My opinion, dark and grouchsome though it might be, seems to be backed up by the quartet itself which manages, while not exactly zinging with fervour, not to sound entirely like the product of some coin-operated mechanism. Its dominant motif, referred to by Cornelius as a "seagull's cry", seems thin stuff to work with and for me (an urbanite) conjures images of landfill rather than the bracing lungfuls of sand and ozone that might have been intended. But, all the same, it's spun well, and not stretched too thinly, at least.

It's compactness seems to make the structure clear enough, even to an abject listener, though it's apparently more conventional for Holmboe than usual, and it's all knitted together nicely, spending half of its time sensitively muted to avoid any inadvertent excitement, with a funereal dirge putting the icing in the middle of the cake. The conclusion, after a bit of fugal exploration, is nicely equivocal in a consciously bet-hedging way so that, in a very real sense, it's not entirely clear where it's gone to, or even where it's been. Which is charming and clever and the sort of thing Robert Simpson (a great fan of Holmboe) liked doing. But, then, not everyone's fond of Simpson, either.

Holmboe's way of composition is an acquired taste, I suspect, and probably requires more than a week to acquire it. The word 'ascetic' crops up a lot in reviews, which might be accurate but is rarely encouraging, conjuring up an image of a dark, barely-furnished cell and a diet of gruel and water. That said, it does have its moments and, though it doesn't grab me, it doesn't bore me, either. Perhaps, I might be tempted to explore Holmboe's work further. But that's what I thought last year, when we listened to his 4th.


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## SearsPoncho

StevehamNY said:


> While acknowledging the risks of making simple geographic/nationalistic assumptions about a composer's soundworld, if you close your eyes and imagine this quartet being debuted in either of these two cities, which one feels like the right home?
> 
> View attachment 163610
> 
> 
> View attachment 163611


The one on the bottom.

EDIT: Hey! I got through!


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Holmboe's music has, unfortunately, yet to click with me at all. There are some interesting ideas, but I find the music to sound largely dry, un-melodic, and dour. Honestly, most Scandinavian music outside of Sibelius and Nielsen leaves me a bit cold. I can understand why people like him-there are some sharply-sprung dance rhythms and earthy Bartokian harmonies, but overall I find the music to lack emotion and connection. The concision and compaction of the work is admirable, though.


Certainly Holmboe's music can take time to 'click'. But, when you say that you understand why people like him, do be careful about citing reasons that _you_ acknowledge as worthy (sharply sprung dance rhythms and earthy (?) Bartok harmonies) as the reasons why _we_ like him.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Fair point. What are some of the traits in his music that you enjoy?


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## StevehamNY

So I didn't need a balky server to keep me away for the last two days. Rather an epic ice storm that coated everything, and as the wind blew we could hear large limbs or even entire trees falling all around us, at least one every minute. Our poor dog was quite put out when the top half of this hemlock tree broke off and blocked his ramp!









What does this have to do with Holmboe's quartet? I'll tell you what! We lost power for two full days, with all of the roads closed. No lights and no heat except for a small gas-powered fireplace. No TV, no Internet. So I ended up listening to a lot of music. And because it's Holmboe week, that's what I started listening to.

And as I kept listening, I found myself not wanting to listen to anything else. I've got the complete Kontra set, nearly eight hours long, and I swear I listened to the entire thing twice through. I don't even know if I can explain it. Maybe ice and cold and isolation are the perfect setting for this music. Or maybe I just didn't really get it before and I needed this forced downtime to finally give it the time it needs to connect with me.

Whatever the reason, whatever's behind yet another mystery of music, I'm pretty sure I'll keep coming back to these quartets, even when the ice is melted.

So thanks, Malx, for giving me the chance to finally discover this music that I already owned!

(P.S. Besides this week's 15th, check out the 10th, which is like an entirely self-contained world of sound in 26 minutes.)


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## starthrower

Are we postponing things this week until the server issue is resolved? I'm still getting a lot of busy server messages as well as getting through occasionally.


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## Merl

Maybe BA has a cunning plan! Seriously, yeah I think that might be an idea, ST. This is only the 2nd time I've got on today.


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## starthrower

It's clear sailing in the middle of the night! I logged on easily when my cat woke me up at 3am.


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## sbmonty

It seems to be getting slowly better for me.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I did PM BlackAdder, but I’m thinking it might not be a bad idea to temporarily place the thread on hold until the site becomes more than semi-usable. It wouldn’t be fair if the response to BA or Starthrower’s pick was minimal due to circumstances beyond our control. Let’s hold off for now.


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## Merl

Nps. I have one quartet review to blog and I'm gonna take this opportunity to do another big one this week. I have something in mind.


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## Merl

Quiet week in here so I finished off blogging the Beethoven String Quartet 8 'Razumovsky' op.59/2 that I'd abandoned a while back (if you're interested).


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## FastkeinBrahms

Hi there. I assume we will recommence on Sunday? I think it would be good if we did not interrupt the flow for too long.


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## Allegro Con Brio

FastkeinBrahms said:


> Hi there. I assume we will recommence on Sunday? I think it would be good if we did not interrupt the flow for too long.


Yup. If BA doesn't provide one by Sunday (I've been in touch with him), the pick goes to Starthrower.


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## Merl

Yay, it'll be good to be back. The site has been a bit quiet since the server problems


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Merl said:


> Yay, it'll be good to be back. The site has been a bit quiet since the server problems


Yep, but they seem to have been fixed. No problems at all for the past 3 days for me


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## Merl

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Yep, but they seem to have been fixed. No problems at all for the past 3 days for me


Same here, AAME, I was just commenting that traffic has been light on the site since. It will take a week or so for numbers to get back to normal.


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## SearsPoncho

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Yep, but they seem to have been fixed. No problems at all for the past 3 days for me


There are still some problems. When I just try to go straight to the website, I usually get "Account Has Been Suspended." I've even seen "site has been removed." I found I can get on if I google "Talkclassical." Then I will click on one of the subforums, which google will list under the main site's page, and I can get on the subforum; however, once I'm here, I will encounter the same problems if I click on the "Forum" box or icon up top. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has had a computer destroyed by a virus, which may explain the reticence of many members to get on, in light of all these confusing messages.


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## Kreisler jr

I have not had any access problems in the last few days, FWIW.


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## starthrower

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Yep, but they seem to have been fixed. No problems at all for the past 3 days for me


That's been my experience so hopefully everybody can log on here this week. I received a message from ACB earlier today giving me the go ahead so we're back in business! I've wanted to feature a contemporary work composed in the past decade and this selection just makes the cut. It's string quartet No.4 by Danish composer, Hans Abrahamsen, composed in 2012. I believe the Kontra Quartet recorded his first two quartets but the mighty Arditti's have recorded all four on a wonderful CD I don't own but have been streaming occasionally over the past several months.

Quartet No.4 is in four movements and clocks in at just over 20 minutes. Overall it's a fairly quiet and serene piece of music which I take as an appropriate antidote to world events as of late. I hope you enjoy it!






1. Light and airy (High in the Sky Singing)
2. With motion (Dance of Light)
3. Dark, heavy and earthy (with a heavy groove)
4. Gently Rocking (with utmost sensitivity, babbling)

Some brief notes from the composer.
https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/47398/String-Quartet-No-4--Hans-Abrahamsen/


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## Art Rock

SearsPoncho said:


> There are still some problems. When I just try to go straight to the website, I usually get "Account Has Been Suspended." I've even seen "site has been removed." I found I can get on if I google "Talkclassical." Then I will click on one of the subforums, which google will list under the main site's page, and I can get on the subforum; however, once I'm here, I will encounter the same problems if I click on the "Forum" box or icon up top. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has had a computer destroyed by a virus, which may explain the reticence of many members to get on, in light of all these confusing messages.


It's being looked at. Above the capabilities of mod level.


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## Krummhorn

I've never experienced the image that people are seeing about their accounts. It doesn't match anything, that resembles a vBulletin error message. 

I'm using Win 7 Professional 64 Bit and Firefox (latest version)

Higher ups above my pay grade may have to try solving this issue.


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## Merl

Is anyone picking a quartet this week? I need my SQ fix.


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## Art Rock

starthrower said:


> That's been my experience so hopefully everybody can log on here this week. I received a message from ACB earlier today giving me the go ahead so we're back in business! I've wanted to feature a contemporary work composed in the past decade and this selection just makes the cut. It's string quartet No.4 by Danish composer, Hans Abrahamsen, composed in 2012. I believe the Kontra Quartet recorded his first two quartets but the mighty Arditti's have recorded all four on a wonderful CD I don't own but have been streaming occasionally over the past several months.
> 
> Quartet No.4 is in four movements and clocks in at just over 20 minutes. Overall it's a fairly quiet and serene piece of music which I take as an appropriate antidote to world events as of late. I hope you enjoy it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Light and airy (High in the Sky Singing)
> 2. With motion (Dance of Light)
> 3. Dark, heavy and earthy (with a heavy groove)
> 4. Gently Rocking (with utmost sensitivity, babbling)
> 
> Some brief notes from the composer.
> https://www.wisemusicclassical.com/work/47398/String-Quartet-No-4--Hans-Abrahamsen/


.................................

:tiphat:


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## FastkeinBrahms

Cool choice, the first movement is magical. Looking forward to the rest. Good to have this going again!


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## Knorf

Ah, cool! Abrahamsen's Fourth Quartet is one I had put on my own short list of possible nominees. Good choice; wonderful composer.


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## Merl

OOP, sorry ST, I can't believe I missed it. I dont know this one so should be interesting.


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## Merl

Interesting piece. The soundworld of the 1st movement reminded me of something (but it's not coming to me at the moment) and the 2nd movement had me thinking of Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells. Gonna have another listen in a minute.


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## sbmonty

Nice choice! Coincidentally, I was listening to Abrahamsen’s 1st quartet performed by the Danish String Quartet just yesterday. Looking forward to listening to No. 4. The first movement reminds me of wind chimes on a warm summer day. Nice!


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## HerbertNorman

Aha...another one to add to the playlist this week ! excited


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## StevehamNY

The Danes are representing here! No complaints from me, although Abrahamsen's music (part of the movement they called the "New Simplicity" as I understand it) is certainly in a different sound world of its own. 

One technical question: In the third movement, there are two occurrences of a prolonging scraping sound reminiscent of running a comb along the edge of a table. I'm sure you know what I mean, as it's quite distinctive. I'm just wondering how you actually accomplish that sound on the instrument!


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## SearsPoncho

ST, that was a welcome change of pace. I enjoyed it. Timing is everything, and I suppose I heard it at the right time. I was happy to escape the travails of this world for 20 minutes and enter this portal into, well, something serene and different that just is. 

Many of the modernisms involved timbre. Maybe not. I don't know much about violins, and I was wondering how he achieved that timbre during the 1st movement. It sounded somewhat similar to the effect Shostakovich elicits at the beginning and end of his 2nd Piano Trio. Perhaps a violinist playing high notes with a (heavy) mute on the instrument? As for the scraping sound in the 3rd movement, which Steve mentioned, it might actually be a comb or guitar pick slowly sliding down the low string of a cello, Eddie Van Halen-style. Anyhow, I must confess that the creaking door sound reminded me of Tales From the Crypt.  I enjoyed the 2nd and 4th movements the most.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I'm sorry to say that I'm not too convinced by this quartet. There's a lot going on, but at the same time nothing really. And the quiet/fast/quiet/fast structure is too predictable. 
In the first movement, the high harmonics and timbric sawing in the first I found quite grating. The rhythmic and sound complexities (pizzicattos clashing with the harmonics, for instance) of the 2nd made it a bit more interesting, but still that sawing...and the repetition. Could have made it even shorter than the almost 4 minutes it lasted. The groove that starts off the third is nice, almost like a jazzy double bass walking a line (I think that's the point indeed). But again it goes nowhere... it's undubitably nice (except for that weird cutoff 'round the halfway point), but it's not saying anything to me. Again in the 4th I'm not impressed by the (renaissance) dance-like qualities.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I finally got round to listening to the whole piece and I liked it a lot. The first movement is mostly eerie sound, the second intrigued me in its almost naive sense of wonder, after having been reminded of Mike Oldfield, that feeling came quite naturally. I loved the meditative third movement. I don't know why, but it made me think of sitting in a temple somewhere in Japan. The last movement had a bit of a Celtic air about it. This must sound like a crazy hodge-podge but that's what this remarkable quartet evoked in me today.


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## HerbertNorman

I found time to listen to the piece too and I enjoyed the listen . I was taken aback by the second movement as well , but the third one was my favourite . I felt completely zen while listening to it.

This is what I love about TC , yet another discovery ... thanks :tiphat:


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## HenryPenfold

For some reason I've only just seen this. 

I have only fairly recently heard Abrahamsen's music and everything I've heard so far I've liked, this quartet being no exception.

I often think that music can be a narrative, a journey, or simply just a moment to be in. I find this quartet very much to be the latter. 

Other posters have made some interesting observations that I've enjoyed reading.

It's the inner movements that I'm particularly enjoying, but as I listen more over the coming days, I'm sure I'll be thinking in more balanced terms.

An inspired choice, starthrower - thank you!


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## Merl

I'm not keen on the first movement at all but the rest is fine. The 2nd movement is still my favourite.


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## Carmina Banana

I enjoyed my first listen. The wonderful thing about music is that we can keep inventing different new experiences without having to create entirely new sounds. By the end of this quartet, I feel like I have found a composer who thinks and creates in a unique way.
These movements just kind of motor along without having to prove anything. They don't really end as much as just stop. There is almost a careless way in which notes come together (or almost come together at times). Sometimes the musical language seems simple, but it has no pretensions of being anything else. I realize that I am not saying things that are generally considered positive, but I am very attracted to his approach (could be the mood I am in right now). I can't wait to hear this quartet again and explore his other pieces.


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## Malx

Abrahamsen's Fourth Quartet - interesting choice Starthrower - I've finally had a chance to listen to the piece a couple of times and I'll briefly say that having had the death of a close relative this week I didn't manage to concentrate too well.

My general observation is that I feel it could be regarded as a collection of four 'tone poems for quartet' rather than a coherent whole. That's not to say it doesn't work as a quartet but just how I'm hearing the work.

I tagged the quartet as a favourite on Qobuz which will remind to revisit it in the not too distant future, frankly a lot of what I've been listening to this week has been comfort music.

I had to chuckle at Steve's comb comment whilst getting exactly where he was coming from.


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## Enthusiast

^ Sorry to hear of your bereavement, Malx. (And, yes, the quartet is something like a suite to my ears, too.)


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## HenryPenfold

Condolences, Malx ......


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## SearsPoncho

Mal, my sincere condolences. I've been to my share of funerals over the last 2 years.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Mal, my sincere condolences. I've been to my share of funerals over the last 2 years.


As I said to another TC member, the other day, many of us are now of an age where funerals become more frequent than 'special' birthday celebrations.


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## Kreisler jr

Not wanting to appear cynical and while offering my sympathies, the main alternative to this is to die oneself at a relatively young age which most people don't prefer...


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## Burbage

_At the risk of insensitively lightening the tone, I've done this..._

As is my custom, I sat down yesterday to listen to this properly, at around the same time as Storm Eunice became noticeable. It started quietly, but was soon howling round the chimney pots, and I had a hard time distinguishing the quartet from the meteorology.

It's an eerie quartet, this. The first movement starts with a reverberant, tuneless, incoherent whistling, reminiscent of the dawn chorus of inebriates under the arches at Waterloo station at around 6am on a Friday morning. After a while, a sort-of pattern emerges from the half-light, built from short, almost pizzicato strokes, and then it stops, fading to a squeaky nothing, like a mouse being prepared for surgery.

The second movement has similarities, but with a bouncier of feel to it, and the pared-back folksiness brought to mind other composers, though Abrahamsen's has more of the feel of an unoiled door or, to allow a naturalistic nod, the song, if that's what it is, of the Great Tit, a well-named bird that enjoys sitting outside windows a little before sunrise and loudly tootling a two-note tune ad infinitum.

The third movement, a pizzicato exercise, descends from the clouds of tinnitus by an octave or two, but remains compositionally congruent, and I was reminded of a time, as a youth, when I spent my evenings building bicycle wheels. And then to "Gently Rocking (With Utmost Sensitivity, Babbling)", which seems to have high expectations of itself, but instantly divorces itself, hands back the infant, and goes in search of harder drink, conjuring the archetypical bar of the rustic deadbeat, where a few half-hearted, desperately solitary, reels are being performed. Which is, I guess, where I started, if not where Abrahamsen thought he was heading.

Abrahamsen, however much of a leading composer he is, doesn't seem to be a leader of listeners. That's fine; others suggest that there's less a journey being taken here, or a story told, than a quiet space of contemplation being created. Like, perhaps, one of those enlightened retirement homes, with whalesong in the laundry room, watercolours on Tuesdays, and politely-ignored screams echoing down the stairwell. A situation that, in some distant respects, I could identify with yesterday, huddled indoors with Eunice hurling twigs at my windows.

Nevertheless, there is something circular going on, and that's a journey of sorts, even if it goes nowhere. I'm not sure that's a very unique thing, but I gather Abrahamsen's sound-world is very unique, despite it reminding me of a lot of other pieces, and he's chosen to focus on small details, which narrows it to a certain minimalist point. However minimal his approach is, though, it escapes the shades of yammering tedium often associated with that style, which is to say I enjoyed this, when the weather allowed me to, though I couldn't help feeling that Penderecki, if he'd been minded, could have covered most of the main points in three minutes flat.

Abrahamsen's biography, and motivations, are well-described in the usual places, and this work arose from a commission, which is presumably why he wrote it. His initial impulse was for something soft and quiet, and in that respect it works. But, though I'm told he found his own distinctive voice in it, it kept reminding me of work by other contemporaneous quartettists, particularly the gamelan-scented Alec Roth, but as that's all something else entirely, I guess I'd better believe what I'm told.

Incidentally, back in the mists of time and short trousers, I was briefly subjected to an attempt to teach me to play the violin, and can thus answer StevehamNY's question about how the scraping noises are achieved. It is, as I recall, just a matter of pressing the bow hard down on the string and then moving it slowly and forcibly to one side, in a way that comes naturally to the ham-fisted.


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## Malx

Thanks to all for the kind comments. 
My apologies for diverting the feel of the thread - but Burbage has, in his inimitable style, got us back on track.

Looking forward to next weeks selection.


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## starthrower

Reading Burbage's clever and entertaining post it's apparent that his feelings about the Abrahamsen quartet echo my own. I'm sort of half sold on this one. And for that reason I debated in my mind whether I should choose this work as my selection. But judging from the variety of responses and opinions this week I'm glad I decided to go with this one. The fact that all four of Abrahamsen's quartets are performed by the Arditti Quartet was another major factor that attracted my attention to his works.

Other than the fourth, I've given just one listen to the others and No.2 really caught my ear so I hope to get back to listening to them all a few more times. Thanks to everybody who took the time to listen and comment.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have not listened yet due to being temporarily deprived of a means of listening (it's complicated), but I'll try to do so later today. BTW I wasn't able to access anything on TC for most of yesterday and got the message "the server does not exist." Anyone else have that problem?

*Annaw* would be next up on our nominating list, assuming the site holds steady.

annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I listened once and can't really believe it's the same guy as "Let Me Tell You" which is on my big favorites list. Sorry for not being so positive...My ears have been very tonal lately.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> .... BTW I wasn't able to access anything on TC for most of yesterday and got the message "the server does not exist." Anyone else have that problem?


No, its been unusually well-behaved since 'the great TC crash'. Hope it sorts itself soon, ACB.


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## Carmina Banana

I enjoyed your more music centered post, Burbage (as compared to the usual fascinating tidbits of the composer’s life and reasons for doing what they do).
I just listened to the composer’s piano concerto, which I think is brilliant and very ingenious from an orchestration standpoint. There are definite stylistic similarities—this is a composer who is not afraid to let things wither away naturally and even evaporate into silence. It almost feels like a combining of human intervention with the forces of nature somehow (I guess you could also say that about other composers such as Messiaen with his birdcalls, for instance). While I do hear the same composer in both pieces, I do feel like he approached this concerto very differently than the string quartet we have been listening to.
Here is a probably not very original observation about string quartets:
I feel that many composers write differently for string quartet as compared to orchestra or other more “public” musical forces. They are able to try quiet experiments and relax with the bombast. The four members of the ensemble are probably fine with that. When gathering 70 musicians for a new orchestra piece on the other hand, you had better make it worth their while. I think some piano works also tend to show a composer’s more intimate side. My teacher used to say that many of the solo piano works of Brahms, the intermezzi, etc. were not for the public. They were too personal. 
I don’t feel this special approach to string quartet writing is true for all composers, but I have been noticing it often as we traverse string quartets as a group.


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## annaw

I'll post the quartet tomorrow or tonight if that's fine (thanks, Merl, for reminding me!) . 

Been extremely busy with work and college, which is why I've been totally radio silent.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Regarding the Abrahamsen quartet:

This is certainly one of the most unique, original, and appealing sound worlds of any quartet we have done so far. I am continually amazed by just how much can be done with four instruments, and how many different totally different styles and approaches we have covered. This is not "extreme" contemporary music by any stretch of the imagination, but neither is it conservative. It seems to take nature as a major inspiration (the first movement sounds like bird calls and the third like raindrops to me) but also sounds quite "Zen" in parts, like a more minimalist Takemitsu. In the first movement we are tantalized with a distant ether of celestial tolling bells, in the second Abrahamsen seem to take Arvo Pärt's archaic-sounding tinntinnabuli as an inspiration, while the final two movements; different in tempo and affect as they are, both conjure up the colorful, space-filled calm of Buddhist temples (I think someone else mentioned getting that sensation too). Admittedly I was skeptical at the start, but I soon came to tune into the flow of this most distinctive music and I enjoyed it much more than I usually do with minimalist-type things. It's a very relaxing, soothing, chic, almost hipster piece; and I think it would be interesting to see how the younger, pop-loving generation would react to it as it seems like something up their alley while also being compositionally creative to show them the wonder of art music. A lovely choice that expanded my horizons quite a bit!


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## SearsPoncho

ACB: Yes. Still having the exact same problems I elaborated on in an earlier post. Can only get on if I google the specific subforum I want, which is usually the chamber music one. Once here, I can't move around to other subforums on TC. Awaiting annaw's quartet...and willing to step in if she's too busy. :lol:


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## annaw

No need, no need .

This weeks quartet will be *Ralph Vaughan Williams' String Quartet No. 2 in A minor*.

(I think I will elaborate on this choice a bit later but hope you all enjoy!)


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## Merl

Yay, nice one Annaw. There's about half a dozen recordings of this one (it's been sadly under-represented in the catalogue) but I do have the Maggini and Nash recordings on CD and HD (and can hear the Medicis on Spotify). What I really enjoy about this quartet is the change of direction from the more melancholy, darker feel of the first three movenents to that beautifully melodic epilogue. This is an underrated, impressive quartet and I hope others enjoy it too.


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## starthrower

I haven't listened to VW's quartets. Starting with the Maggini recording.


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## hammeredklavier

starthrower said:


> I haven't listened to VW's quartets. Starting with the Maggini recording.


Finally a badass viola who's saying: "I'm here to stay - live with it!"


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## annaw

The central role of the viola is quite deliberate as RVW dedicated the piece to one of his friends, viola player Jean Stewart. This is from Hyperion's introduction:



> That the work was intended to have a personal connection with its dedicatee is evident since the viola is centre-stage throughout, beginning each movement, ending two, and leading as thematic material is introduced and developed. The work's composition between the Fifth and Sixth symphonies also has a bearing on its character, since it both looks back to the former, as well as ahead to the latter, and in particular to its harmonic tensions with the juxtaposition of the keys of E minor and F minor and also the use of the interval of the augmented fourth.
> 
> Reflecting its title, 'Prelude', the first movement is comparatively short. It opens dramatically with the viola's sweeping, tempestuous theme. Later, tremolos recall the gales that 'blow the saplings double' in the composer's song-cycle On Wenlock Edge, and although a secondary theme is clearly identifiable it does not provide respite from the prevailing stormy mood.
> 
> The title 'Romance' for the second movement seems out of place since this is a bleak musical landscape, made all the more barren by the instruction to the musicians to play without vibrato. This, combined with the contrapuntal nature of the music, seems consciously to evoke the sound of the Jacobean viol consort. Further on in the movement solemn chords alternate with brief sorrow-laden commentaries from the viola, although an exultant key change to C major brings light flooding onto the musical landscape.
> 
> In the Scherzo all the instruments are muted apart from the viola, which makes its anxious, sinister triplets all the more menacing. This fragmentary theme was derived from the 49th Parallel music where it depicted the Nazis on the run. Once again the viola is prominent, for instance, where it has a bravura melody in double-stops. The absence of a contrasting trio heightens the overall tense mood.
> 
> The final movement, 'Epilogue', is subtitled 'Greetings from Joan to Jean' since its theme was intended to depict the character of St Joan in an unrealised film project of Bernard Shaw's play of the same name. With it too comes a change of direction and character in the music, which recalls the finale of the Fifth Symphony or the last section of his suite for viola, chorus and small orchestra, Flos campi. Like them, the quartet concludes in a spirit of benediction and serenity.


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## Merl

It was a strange birthday present to the viola player, Jean Stewart, in one respect as its rather a bleak piece for first two movements (that's all he had written at the time) but she was very grateful for it probably because of the prominence given to the viola. This is the letter she sent back in response (almost 79 years ago to the day)...



> My beloved Uncle Ralph,
> 
> I am still going about in a state bordering between tears and laughter, with an inane expression on my face which must be most trying for those who come into contact with me. I have just shown it1 to Jimmy and Isolde2 who are more than enchanted. We are going to try it through to-morrow.
> Never did anybody have a more wonderful birthday present. I was informed by Ursula that something pretty catastrophic awaited me on (& not before) my birthday, & that it was livestock. How true!! In spite of persistent enquiries I could get no information beyond that, or whom it was from, except that it might be a couple of penguins that the Zoological Society had to spare. Consequently it came as a complete surprise & such a knock-out blow that had we been in the good old days of the Czars I would have passed out backwards with arms & legs stiff: (like this):- [sketch of figure falling backwards].
> But alas my generation is too rudely healthy to perform these graceful exhibitions. When I come to I will try to thank you a little more adequately. This is just to tell you how happy you've made me & how much I love you.
> Jean


Interesting that he finished writing the 2nd half of the quartet in the latter half of 1943 and the final movement at the start of 1944, when the allies were gaining the upper hand. Perhaps this explains the turbulence of the 3rd movement and change of mood in the final (epilogue). It would certainly explain a lot. Upon receiving the final two movements, Jean Stewart responded...



> I am longing to get my teeth into it & for you to come & hear it with the Quartet, and then to work it & really get to know it. Oh we are going to have a great time with "my" Quartet bless you!


Btw, the 2nd Quartet was first heard privately at the White Gates (VW's gaff) in Dorking, in July 1944, and given its 1st public performance by the Menges Quartet on the 12th October the same year (which was Jean Stewart's present to the composer on HIS birthday). After some revisions, and with the quartet's markings, the score was published in 1947.


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## Kreisler jr

I got the Maggini disc around 15 years ago or so, mainly for the "Phantasy quintet" (with additional prominent viola, apparently RWV liked this instrument). The quintet used to be my favorite and I rarely listened to the quartets. 
But relistening to the 2nd quartet this is a pretty good piece and might be the best of the 3 on the disc. It's a bit lopsided with the slow 2nd movement taking almost half of the whole but it works quite well.


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## HerbertNorman

The next one I'll put on . I haven't got that much experience with RVW's chamber music . I've got the Naxos disc of 2001 with the Maggini quartet playing the work ao.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

The Medici Quartet sounded great! I really liked the piece and once again found out my prejudice against some music is silly (like avoiding English folky music). Maybe I'll grow up! I realized it has a great viola part and the Medici guy has a nice fat tone! I will listen to other recordings too and this one again.


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## HerbertNorman

The Maggini recording is enjoyable, I hadn't gotten it out for a long time. Thanks for all the background guys, much appreciated! The viola being so much more on the frontline makes the piece feel different, more "moody"...


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## annaw

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> The Medici Quartet sounded great! I really liked the piece and once again found out my prejudice against some music is silly (*like avoiding English folky music*). Maybe I'll grow up! I realized it has a great viola part and the Medici guy has a nice fat tone! I will listen to other recordings too and this one again.


I think it's really fascinating how some English composers manage to combine the folky tunes with a very modern sound although I am not sure if RVW is the greatest example of this. However, if you listen to something like Walton's Piano Quartet (a very recommendable work!), I think it's fascinating how, despite it sounding very 20th-century-ish, there is still something very folky about certain themes he uses (in the last movement, for example).

But I am quite partial of folky tunes. Traditional choir music is _very big_ in Estonia (where I've grown up) and I think most Estonians are unavoidably brought up on folk music. It's almost inevitable :lol:.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

That was just absolutely beautiful. I listened to the Maggini's recording twice. The first time I was reading the Apocryphal Gospels -a series of works that at one point or another were forbidden by different Christian institutions- and I was reading about Joseph's death. Now, I'm an atheist, but this part of the gospel -written by someone in Egypt apparently at some point in the 6th or 7th century- combined with this work moved me tremendously. Then, the 2nd time, without reading anything, I experienced those same heights again. Can't believe there are so few recordings.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I listened to the Medici recording this evening. I was a bit underwelmed by the first movement but the other three were glorious, especially the second. Not really a romanza, indeed. The vibratoless playing reminded me even more of mediaeval music than of a Jacobean viol consort. The third movement is really eerie. A great way to get introduced to RVW's chamber music!


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## Merl

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> ..... Can't believe there are so few recordings.


Aye, it's bizarre that such a good quartet is so under-represented (ditto for the Elgar quartet, as far as I'm concerned).


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## golfer72

if you like English chamber check out Arnold Bax. Lots of good stuff in numerous formats


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## StevehamNY

Annaw, thank you for selecting this quartet. There's something about it, especially in the fourth movement, that nearly brings me to tears for some reason I can't even put my finger on. Another musical mystery, I guess.

And not to drag too much of the real world into this forum, but I just have to say that I was honestly wondering if I should select yet another Russian quartet when my next turn comes up soon. But then I saw this picture today of thousands of young Russians taking to the streets in St. Petersburg to protest the invasion, and I said to myself, "THIS is Russia, not some tin-pot dictator."


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## HerbertNorman

Just a question guys, who gets to nominate a piece in this thread or is there some sort of rotation? Thanks 4 letting me know.


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## Allegro Con Brio

HerbertNorman said:


> Just a question guys, who gets to nominate a piece in this thread or is there some sort of rotation? Thanks 4 letting me know.


There is a list that we rotate through which is basically first come first serve. If you're interested in choosing a piece, great! If so, your nomination would come in about ten weeks, depending on whether everyone who is currently scheduled decides to make a pick. SearsPoncho is up for next week. Here's what it looks like now (I will add your name in if you'd like):

SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
allaroundmusicenthusiast


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## HerbertNorman

Allegro Con Brio said:


> There is a list that we rotate through which is basically first come first serve. If you're interested in choosing a piece, great! If so, your nomination would come in about ten weeks, depending on whether everyone who is currently scheduled decides to make a pick. SearsPoncho is up for next week. Here's what it looks like now (I will add your name in if you'd like):
> 
> SearsPoncho
> HenryPenfold
> Carmina Banana
> StevehamNY
> FastkeinBrahms
> Burbage
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> allaroundmusicenthusiast


Yes please, I would appreciate that!


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## Burbage

_It's Friday, yet again. So here we are._

The notes that Annaw pointed to, if reliable, suggest a motive of sorts for RVW's 2nd quartet, albeit one that, in our enlightened and liberal times, would doubtless see him cancelled. Even though RWV was 70 and, though not yet wholly corpulent, unlikely to pose a hazard to nimbler shipping. Moreover, his wife didn't seem to mind, there was a war on and, 80 years ago, avuncular didn't necessarily mean creepy. And, as any struggling lawyer would be sure to remind a jury, it wasn't RVW that was doing the pestering. If he was at fault for anything, it was for putting a rate of exchange in writing that might well have been intended, but was unlikely to have been achieved. Finally, any perceived imbalance between the number of honorary nieces (plenty, none of whom complained to the police) and honorary nephews (none declared) is surely proof that RVW was the wokest champion of equality, merely attempting to level the playing field.

As it happened, the dedicatee seemed more pleased than offended with the bargain: "Without exaggeration this Quartet is the most lovely thing that has happened to me in my life, & it will continue to be a joy to me as long as I live.", she wrote. I hope she had a happier life than that because I'm not so sure of its loveliness or joy. Nor was its creator, who wrote that "it sounded dull & muddly". Continuing on this theme, "you know I've tried all my life for clarity & never achieved it - I always put too many ingredients into the pudding", conjuring a certain sort of picture. That said, though the quartet pitches up between the hymn-like 5th and the angular 6th Symphonies, and there are elements of both in it, as well as borrowings from other work, it doesn't sound much like a pudding to me. Rather than a surfeit of material, it seems more like a suite, a theme and variations, involving a relatively small assortment of related themes.

Which isn't really a criticism. On its own merits, it's a fine piece that works, in some ways, as a grand tour. The Prelude is a thing in itself, the viola leads itself off on a forceful, stormy pilgrimage, returning (or arriving) with a mournful lyrical passage, before retreating to silence via a set of variations of the opening motif. There's not much to it, and it goes nowhere, but it does so very well. The Romance is as methodical, pared-back and powerful as his famous Lark, though it's the quiet romance of stolen glances in the pews. Again, there's not much material, but what there is is spun like silk. After that, the grim little scherzo seems to fit naturally, starting thrillingly, with shivering violins beneath a dramatic viola, and carries some sort of momentum through arpeggiated lines but, again, it's the mood, rather than the invention, that grips, until it doesn't. Finally, there's the curious Epilogue, which pulls everything together and, somehow, also doesn't.

I'm not convinced that it's a masterpiece, exactly, but that's probably because it seems so much of a piece with his other work, and on a smaller canvas than the symphonies. To the untrained ear, RVW remains RVW from the daring conventionality of the Quartet in C minor, through the lush Ravellianisms of the 1st right up till this, and all are expertly written. All the same, he does change and, his idiom increasingly adopts the sardonic edge of the Housman he'd set in "On Wenlock Edge", long before the outbreak of the first war in which he'd served. I wouldn't go so far as to suggest this was a preparatory sketch for the 6th, though the structure is similar; it's more that VW seems to be one of those composers who found their voice early, and spent the rest of their careers evolving ways of expressing it, and that can make it hard to distinguish a highlight from a detail, or a method from a motive. Not that that's stopped anyone from trying and, as there's an awful lot already written, I'll refrain from adding any more of my own to history's monumental burden.


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## Malx

I'll keep my comments brief - especially following the wonderfully erudite musings of Burbage. 
My thoughts were, echoing some of Burbages observations, that this to my ear was another RVW symphony for four instruments. There is nothing ground breaking about the way he handles the string quartet idiom but the piece is immediately recognisable as his work.

The quartet is a very decent piece to listen to but is unlikely to be something I'll play as often as other quartets from other quarters.

Yesterday I played it back to back with the Walton Quartet as a little comparison and well lets just say RVW will have to be happy with the silver medal!


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## Malx

HerbertNorman said:


> Yes please, I would appreciate that!


For your info' HN - on the first page of the thread there is a list of all the quartets previously discussed.


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## Carmina Banana

Finally able to give this a listen or two because I am trapped a hotel room for a few hours. 
Wow. Nobody can write Vaughan Williams quite as well as Vaughan Williams. I am fan of his symphonies, string orchestra works, concertos, etc. but haven’t paid much attention to either of these quartets before. It is completely satisfying. 
Like Hindemith, he apparently had a soft spot for the viola and really knew how to write for it. Ah! The contralto of the string instruments!
Despite being a war-time piece and reflecting some of that despair and desolation, there are many moments of great beauty and hopefulness. I suppose the first movement is the closest he came to angsty—the obsession with that one short motif makes one feel almost trapped and uncomfortable—but much of the rest of the quartet is filled with those lush parallel moving chords and effortless counterpoint that I associate with this composer. There are many harmonic moments that cause me to shake my head with admiration.
I think the Maggini recording is excellent, but I look forward to hearing some others.


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## Merl

I've had a mental week at school but I finally got to blog my reviews of the available quartets. If you're interested then it's below.

Vaughan Williams String Quartet 2


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## Allegro Con Brio

I agree with the general consensus that this is an absolutely wonderful piece that inhabits an individual and attractive sound world. RVW is one of my overall favorites, and probably my favorite British composer. I just love how he mixes luxurious and exotic harmonies, use of modes, and romantic folk melodies. Last week, some people heard a Baroque suite in the structure of the Abrahamsen quartet and I hear that here too. The opening with all the viola solos is very forthright and earthy, and convincingly maps out a miniature journey in improvisatory form. I'm not sure how I feel about the romance being only a little bit shorter than the other three movements combined, but it's a worthy piece to be at the heart of the work. The dignified sarabande rhythms and harmonic contours reminded me of a Bach slow movement at times, so elegiac and heartfelt. The last two, miniatures of a sort, are very effective and produce a lot of pleasing textures with minimal material. Very glad to have discovered this wonderfully clever, concise, and genial piece from this absolutely wonderful composer.

BTW sorry if my thoughts sound a bit disheveled lately; I don't have much time or inclination to devote myself to TC anymore and I don't usually get the chance to listen to the week's selection until the weekend. This week I was busy writing a research paper on Bach's St. Matthew Passion and an original modal composition for my music theory class, so I might even dare to say I'm a bit musicked-out at the moment


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## Kreisler jr

Allegro Con Brio said:


> There is a list that we rotate through which is basically first come first serve. If you're interested in choosing a piece, great! If so, your nomination would come in about ten weeks, depending on whether everyone who is currently scheduled decides to make a pick. SearsPoncho is up for next week. Here's what it looks like now (I will add your name in if you'd like):
> 
> SearsPoncho
> HenryPenfold
> Carmina Banana
> StevehamNY
> FastkeinBrahms
> Burbage
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> allaroundmusicenthusiast


If I am not mistaken, it should be my turn after Enthusiast.

cf.
https://www.talkclassical.com/64793-weekly-quartet-just-music-304.html#post2170246


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## Allegro Con Brio

Kreisler jr said:


> If I am not mistaken, it should be my turn after Enthusiast.
> 
> cf.
> https://www.talkclassical.com/64793-weekly-quartet-just-music-304.html#post2170246


Don't know how you got deleted. You're definitely on!


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## SearsPoncho

Another English composer? You betcha! Straight outta Northampton with an Irish song in his heart and a surprising coda up his sleeve...

This week's string quartet: *Malcolm Arnold's String Quartet #2 (1975)*

I've posted a link to an excellent live performance by the Allegri Quartet. The audio quality is lousy, however, the commitment of these remarkable musicians is worth hearing. There are few performances of this work (Maggini Qt., McCapra Quartet - both on Youtube). I hope you begin with the Allegri Quartet's performance. It has an electricity and tension which is difficult to duplicate in the studio.






I'm eager to read your comments on this music.


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## Merl

Interesting pick, SP. I only have the Maggini which was another charity shop buy (50p) many years ago. However the 3 releases I could track down are all on Spotify (Maggini, McCapra & Ceruti Ensemble) for those that want to hear them all. I'll also listen to the Allegri's premiere on YouTube.

Here's an analysis of the work from Musicweb..

Malcolm Arnold and the String Quartet


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## HerbertNorman

I'll be listening to this one


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## Merl

I just listened to the Ceruti and Maggini. Little between them.


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## SearsPoncho

I first heard it on the car radio. I was instantly intrigued, particularly by the final movement and coda, and was surprised when the DJ revealed the name of the composer. This could also be part of the contemporary string quartet thread (post 1970), however, it doesn't really sound contemporary, does it? Or does it?

Merl, we've been taking it easy on you with these selections that have few recordings.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> I first heard it on the car radio. I was instantly intrigued, particularly by the final movement and coda, and was surprised when the DJ revealed the name of the composer. This could also be part of the contemporary string quartet thread (post 1970), however, it doesn't really sound contemporary, does it? Or does it?
> 
> *Merl, we've been taking it easy on you with these selections that have few recordings.*


Nps, SP, I've been making my way through the warhorses in my blogs whilst I've had breathing space. I've done most of the really massive ones now and I've only 4 Beethoven quartets left to review (after I finish the 5th quartet review tomorrow - it's 3/4 written).


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## SearsPoncho

Merl, I had to look up what "pratt" is. You most certainly are not a pratt! :lol:
I might be.


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## HerbertNorman

Fascinating piece, the comparison with the SQs of Shostakovich can easily be made I think...
It's very serious and enthralling music .


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## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> Another English composer? You betcha! Straight outta Northampton with an Irish song in his heart and a surprising coda up his sleeve...
> 
> This week's string quartet: *Malcolm Arnold's String Quartet #2 (1975)*
> 
> I've posted a link to an excellent live performance by the Allegri Quartet. The audio quality is lousy, however, the commitment of these remarkable musicians is worth hearing. There are few performances of this work (Maggini Qt., McCapra Quartet - both on Youtube). I hope you begin with the Allegri Quartet's performance. It has an electricity and tension which is difficult to duplicate in the studio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A fabulous quartet, almost as good as his first, but not quite!


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## Merl

Yeah, I'll echo the statements made by SP and Henry about the Allegri premiere. The recording is awful but the performance is remarkably vibrant. What a shame this isn't available in good sound. Its a sparkling performance.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Yeah, I'll echo the statements made by SP and Henry about the Allegri premiere. The recording is awful but the performance is remarkably vibrant. What a shame this isn't available in good sound. Its a sparkling performance.


Absolutely! I believe it was dedicated to them or one of their members, and it shows.


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## Carmina Banana

Just finished my first casual listen. I like a composer who is not afraid to have a number of diverse influences. The ending of the last movement could easily be the closing credits of a 1970s movie starring James Garner and Angie Dickinson. That must have been a nod to the popular sound of the day. I love all of the other neo-classical touches as well. 
I am glad that others place value on a live performance, despite its flaws. There is often a magic about a live performance that can't be copied in a recording studio.
Having said that, this is a good example of why the sound engineer always says, give me a few bars of the loudest part of your performance. Always leave some headroom. I'm sure it is really hard to record a classical performance. I shouldn't be critical.


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## Merl

I've already blogged this and made some observations. If you want to read it then it's here. If not then move on.


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## StevehamNY

I'm finding it hard to concentrate on music this week, with the world being turned even further upside-down, but I am enjoying this week's piece. To my untrained ears it sounds like a dozen very different music threads being woven together. It shouldn't work, but it does.



Carmina Banana said:


> The ending of the last movement could easily be the closing credits of a 1970s movie starring James Garner and Angie Dickinson.


And because James Garner was my father's favorite music star (he actually looked very much like him!), I feel it's important to point out that Garner and Angie Dickinson first appeared together on an episode of the old "Cheyenne" TV show, just before Garner's own starring role on "Maverick." Years later, when they had both stepped up to the big screen, they co-starred in "The Art of Love," which I'm sure you have all seen and loved!









(As always, I am contributing my essential two cents to the musical discussion.)


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## Malx

Having listened to all three of the commercially available readings of Arnold's second quartet I don't feel there is a stand out among these recordings but I do agree with others that despite the poor sound the Allegri's live version on YouTube is a clear winner.

The quartet itself confirms for me what I have often thought about Arnold - he is a musical chameleon, he can change styles and influences almost at will. The Irish folk tune at the start of the second movement which morphs into a darker place almost doesn't come off for me but the rest of the work works well.

A very interesting piece that probably should be recorded more often - but how often do we seem to wish that for British composers' quartets. Is there a conspiracy going on here or are the pieces not up to some unknown standard in the eyes of record companies/ marketing department heads/ critics or whoever?


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## starthrower

Thanks to Poncho for introducing us to this one! I have the Conifer Recordings box but never ventured into any of Arnold's chamber music. I'll echo the comments on the committed live performance premiere but there are some really distorted segments that make it hard to enjoy. I was just as satisfied with the Chandos recording.


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## Merl

Steve, what are your opinions on this week's covers?


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Steve, what are your opinions on this week's covers?
> 
> View attachment 164433
> 
> View attachment 164435
> 
> View attachment 164437


The Maggini Quartet really dissed their cellist. He was probably the one who took the photo!

I would like to thank all those who have contributed to this thread over the last week. When I chose Malcolm Arnold, I knew it wouldn't be the most popular choice. Furthermore, I understand that world events are much more pressing at the moment. Looking forward to Burbage's comments... (Malcolm Arnold lived a colorful, turbulent life.)


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Steve, what are your opinions on this week's covers?
> 
> View attachment 164433
> 
> View attachment 164435
> 
> View attachment 164437


I'm pretty "eh" on all three of these, in the sense that I don't think I'd be able to picture the cover in my mind if I happened to have an urge to hear the piece. That visual association, essentially giving the music one more sensory reference point in your mental catalog, is probably Job #1 for a cover!

(Think about any of your all-time favorite rock albums and I bet the cover appears instantly in your head!)

But if you made me choose between Instrument Picture #9,875 (SP is right about the diss on the cello!), the Rainbow Sherbet, and the Samuel Palmer painting, at least the painting is kinda interesting and semi-appropriate to the music, I guess?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Arnold is such a great composer-his voice is instantly recognizable despite its diversity, and he is one of my favorites of the second half of the century. His symphony cycle and several other works have provided me with much enjoyment, and I'm glad to say that I really dig this quartet. It's got ingenious transformations of folk tunes, nifty use of harmony and modes (that Lydian mode right away in the first movement is downright awesome), expert counterpoint, lots of remorseless energy but then a heartbreaking, breathtaking pensive elegy in the third movement whose emotional depth is almost too great to be comprehended in a single listen. It's just really quality music, very fresh sounding and adventurous but truly honest and sincere. What a composer, what a work. (again, apologies for the rather trite, brief comments of late...)

Current schedule: *HenryPenfold* is up next.

HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
FastkeinBrahms
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman


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## Merl

I really enjoyed the Arnold but, as I said in my blog post, there was still no account of this quartet that truly satisfied me. This can occasionally happen for me when there are quartets with very few recordings but that's only a personal perspective. Since starting my reviews I've gotta admit that I've tended to reach only for my best performances when revisiting pieces or sampling new ones I've not heard. No doubt that will change. However, as beautifully played and recorded the Chandos McCapra disc is, it just doesn't quite reach the emotional depths for me (it's too 'nice') and they don't always get the rhythms and flow of the piece. And whilst the Magginis often have the requisite fire they aren't as technically assured as I'd like on this occasion (beginning of 4th movement) and some passages sound a bit thick but I suspect that's just because of the recorded sound that's occasionally a tad up-front, which congests textures. If only any of three recordings had everything the Allegri premiere had (except the diabolical sound)! I suspect someone will give it that type of performance someday. For now these will suffice. Apologies if that sounds a little harsh. It's not meant to be a scathing criticism, just a niggle


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## Burbage

_As Friday tolls the knell of parting week, I dutifully present some Thoughts:_

As well as being English, as SearsPoncho astutely noticed, Arnold and Vaughan Williams were both born under the sign of Libra, though Arnold had the Moon in Gemini, rather than Aquarius (Shulamit Ran, another Libran we've visited, had the Moon in Libra, and is thus a properly Lunar Libran). Perhaps that means something but, in case it doesn't, I'll turn instead to the music.

Arnold's second quartet, like RVW's, starts out with serious intent. This is, after all, a String Quartet, and thus Serious Music, so off we go with a plangent three-note swoop that falls as heavy as any heart. But, as in theory, if not in life, what goes down must also go up, and we're soon bouncing up and down a curious sort of scale (in Lydian mode, Allegro assures us) in three-note steps until, things get darker, calmer and, if truth be told, squeakier, as if the burden of serious music had become insurmountable to the point of pizzicato. There's a lot more to this first movement, brief as it is, and insistently it goes about it, occasionally returning to the opening motif, like an itch that needs to be scratched before, without much warning, we're thrown firmly into a lyrical Arnoldism, a fine cinematic melody in the brief moment it allows itself.

Then we're back to plangency, in the opening of the second movement which serves up an experimental plate of "maestoso con molto rubato" that majors heavily on gruff glissando before giving up to the jollier Allegro vivace, another signature dish that tries, and broadly manages, to give a serious slant to an Arnoldic reel.

After those short escapades, we hit the Andante, the start of which could be almost anything by anybody and, like the midnight jet of a sanctioned oligarch, gives few clues as to where it's going. It's very still, and very peaceful and very unsettling. There's a slight hint of a whiff of VW's Antarctic in the harmony and the keening violin line, but not much more than that and, if we're very honest with ourselves, as soon as those tremulant lower strings get going we just know there's another Arnoldism brewing. It's beautifully done, a quiet chorale that gently builds before disintegrating into a rocking, unexpected duet and then regrouping to become a more insistent version of itself that fades into invisibility.

The final Allegretto pops up out of the silence as no great surprise, with a fistful of Arnold's lyrical trademarks, the little tics and half-fanfares that are as distinctive as any motif of Shostakovich or Wagner, if more artless. The viola gets a little tune to itself that's recombined with the stuff from the start, and then we're into a rumbustious vivace that bounces along, all raspberries and ale, till it reaches the inevitable Arnoldish anthem at the end, as if it's all we were ever waiting for.

Arnold wrote this because he was commissioned to, at a time when, by all accounts, he was short of money. The liner-note scribes gloss over this slightly, preferring to interpret it as an eruption of bitter tragedy (I paraphrase) as if his music was a deeply personal diatribe against landlords. Personally, I think they're wrong. Partly that's a matter of principle, liner-note scribes being, at least to some extent, in the business of marketing. But mostly it's because I think the trouble with Arnold is that he was a fundamentally honest man.

And so his humour was too broad, his lyricisms too lyrical, his dances too dance-like and at a time when older people were meant to be square, stiff-lipped and keep their hearts well away from their sleeves, entirely the wrong sort of popular. At this time, the film work had dried up, after a productive 17 years, and the blasted Boulez was shaping London's tastes, so commissions were few and far between, and he seems to have become frustrated and unpredictable, turning earnestly to drink. This is seen as an aberration, and described as a "battle", in the way nobody writes about Rachmaninoff's battle with lumbago, possibly because, at the time, unpredictable composers without the resources to discreetly remove the stigmas of divorce, instability, pacifism and substance abuse had a hard time of it. That Arnold reneged on his pacifism, only to resume it a few weeks later after receiving a bullet in the foot from, it's alleged, his own worst enemy, tells us that his convictions were admixed with doubts, but not much else. At the risk of belabouring the point, Arnold seems to have personally reacted to changing circumstances in ways that were mostly unexceptional, but I'm not sure that applies to his music.

It's argued, by the best sort of scholars, that his compositions were like diary entries, accurately reflecting his personal circumstances at the time of writing. It's also argued, ditto, that composing was a sort of retreat, an area of stability where he'd found a voice and a method and more-or-less stuck to them. Of these diametrically-opposed takes, I'm inclined to the latter. Is his 7th Symphony a charming portrait of three children, or a tortured threnody on an accursed, self-inflicted, fate? Do cowbells conjure for you the pastoral insouciance of blithe cattle, or the wild-eyed tolling of a panicked herd? Was his aim to make modernist music popular and accessible, or channel future problems to make popular music grim and forbidding? To my ears, the kaleidoscope of moods he conjures, from comic capers to hushed reverence, speaks for himself. There may be howls of anguish but, as in life itself, they're far from being the whole story.


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## Carmina Banana

I really like that last paragraph from Burbage. I’m going to remember it next time we have a discussion about whether a composer is writing about their cat dying or just writing a string quartet. Also, the thing about popular music—very well put. 
In many ways, Malcolm Arnold is my ideal of a modern composer; he wasn’t afraid to use whatever was lying around and fashion it into music that pleased him. This seems right to me because the situation of a modern composer is very different from that of an earlier counterpart. It used to be you learned from a master how to write music that was considered proper and right for that time and place. If you were adventurous, maybe you took a two month carriage ride to visit another European country and expanded your horizons, but your writing probably didn’t change that much as a result. In the 20th century as now, there are so many compositional paths to chose that it makes your head spin. Arnold’s music reflects that choice that composers must make. He didn’t shy away from the challenge.
I like the week-to-week format of this thread, but I often feel like I want to go on a deep dive just when we move on to another composer. I want to hear all of the Arnold’s symphonies, etc. but I’m sure I will be distracted by things like earning a wage. 

As for recordings, I think the Maggini is good, but I am actually quite fond of the Ceruti. It is a bit understated at times, but I love their Andante. It is very intimate and vulnerable (which some could call lacking passion).


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## HenryPenfold

*Robert Simpson* (1921-1997)

String Quartet no. 1 (1951-52)

2 movements - circa 25 minutes

The following link has a most excellent commentary on RS's SQ1.

Also contained in the linked page, is Matthew Taylor's almost blow-by-blow programme notes on the Hyperion website.

Please do read these two commentaries - they really give one an excellent grasp of this fascinating music. 
https://fugueforthought.de/2017/05/14/simpson-string-quartet-no-1/amp/

Sorry, no pics etc - I am currently in the middle of moving apartments in Istanbul and I haven't yet installed wi-fi in the new place, and my daughter is working remotely in the other one and apparently I disturb her! I only have the use of my iPhone.


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## Merl

Great pick but only one problem... Hyperion stuff isn't on Spotify streaming and it's not on YouTube so unless you've got the disc you aren't gonna get to hear it! Anyone have a link to a freebie version?


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## Allegro Con Brio

Nope, no way for me to listen…I may find whatever Simpson works I can to listen to instead this week, as I’m completely unfamiliar with the composer.


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## sbmonty

Me neither unfortunately. I am curious about this composer as well.


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> Great pick but only one problem... Hyperion stuff isn't on Spotify streaming and it's not on YouTube so unless you've got the disc you aren't gonna get to hear it! Anyone have a link to a freebie version?


Same for Qobuz and Tidal. Sorry.


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## Art Rock

So... do I add it to the list or not?


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## Kreisler jr

I am for a different piece, both because of limited access (I have about 3 Simpson quartets on disc but not that one) and because it would be the 3rd 20th century British quartet in a row...


----------



## Burbage

Art Rock said:


> So... do I add it to the list or not?


The answer to that is well-above my pay-grade, but I would add it.

That's not entirely because I'm a frothing didact, insistent that rules are rules. Nor is it entirely because I already possess a recording and so, from that position of blithe privilege, can more easily harden my ears to the rightful plaints of the distressed gentlefolk of this thread. But, nevertheless, rules really are rules and there aren't any rules, that I can see, against selecting a work that might, if only for practical reasons, frighten the cheapskates and misers. And thus Simpson deserves its place on the list.

Those of softer heart and mind (among whom I might consider myself, having, as far as I can remember, almost never kicked a kitten without good reason) might not object to some sort of compromise being struck though, being mindful of the outrage that followed the selection of the Langaard/Holmboe double-bill in the rumbunctious January of 2021, I have no idea what that would look like. Which, now I think about it, might be why my pay-grade is what it is.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Kreisler jr said:


> I am for a different piece, both because of limited access (I have about 3 Simpson quartets on disc but not that one) and because it would be the 3rd 20th century British quartet in a row...


There's no limit on the number baroque, classical, romantic etc or composer nationality that an be chose in a row.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Burbage said:


> The answer to that is well-above my pay-grade, but I would add it.
> 
> That's not entirely because I'm a frothing didact, insistent that rules are rules. Nor is it entirely because I already possess a recording and so, from that position of blithe privilege, can more easily harden my ears to the rightful plaints of the distressed gentlefolk of this thread. But, nevertheless, rules really are rules and there aren't any rules, that I can see, against selecting a work that might, if only for practical reasons, frighten the cheapskates and misers. And thus Simpson deserves its place on the list.
> 
> Those of softer heart and mind (among whom I might consider myself, having, as far as I can remember, almost never kicked a kitten without good reason) might not object to some sort of compromise being struck though, being mindful of the outrage that followed the selection of the Langaard/Holmboe double-bill in the rumbunctious January of 2021, I have no idea what that would look like. Which, now I think about it, might be why my pay-grade is what it is.


I'm sure a good number of forum members have a recording in their collection anyway, but not all will necessarily engage with the thread.


----------



## Art Rock

I've added it to the list on the front page. Also, although I'm not a participant in this group, I would like to state that the Simpson string quartet cycle is for me the second best of the 20th century (after Shosty), and I encourage all SQ lovers to explore it in any way they can.


----------



## Kreisler jr

It's not against any rules, but while everything is allowed not everything is equally beneficial, to paraphrase St. Paul.
I remember some people here being, to put it mildly, disappointed, because their choices were all but ignored and barely commented on by the others (despite being available on youtube or free streaming). 
As well as some people basically leaving this thread because there were too many works in a row they could not connect with at all.


----------



## Philidor

Burbage said:


> [ ... ]
> 
> the selection of the Langaard/Holmboe double-bill
> 
> [ ... ]


May I guess that you have been rewarded with great music?



Art Rock said:


> [ ... ] I would like to state that the Simpson string quartet cycle is for me the second best of the 20th century (after Shosty), and I encourage all SQ lovers to explore it in any way they can.


As I am currently in 20th century's string quartets, may I kindly ask for suggestion, where to start in order to get a first impression on Simpson's strong quartets? Thank you!


----------



## Art Rock

Philidor said:


> As I am currently in 20th century's string quartets, may I kindly ask for suggestion, where to start in order to get a first impression on Simpson's strong quartets? Thank you!


The first if you want to go chronologically (well, duh, but seriously, they are all worthwhile);
The fourth (or fifth or sixth) if you love the Beethoven Razumovsky quartets that inspired these;
The seventh if you want to start with probably my favourite of the cycle....


----------



## HerbertNorman

Art Rock said:


> I've added it to the list on the front page. Also, although I'm not a participant in this group, I would like to state that the Simpson string quartet cycle is for me the second best of the 20th century (after Shosty), and I encourage all SQ lovers to explore it in any way they can.


Better than Bartók??? That's a bold statement Art Rock... makes me even more curious tbh...


----------



## Art Rock

Yes, for some reason (and not lack of trying) I find the Bartok cycle less impressive than most people.


----------



## Philidor

Art Rock said:


> The first if you want to go chronologically (well, duh, but seriously, they are all worthwhile);
> The fourth (or fifth or sixth) if you love the Beethoven Razumovsky quartets that inspired these;
> The seventh if you want to start with probably my favourite of the cycle....


Thank you very much! The CD with #1 and #4 (Delmé Qt) is ordered ... I will report on personal experience.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Philidor said:


> May I guess that you have been rewarded with great music?
> 
> As I am currently in 20th century's string quartets, may I kindly ask for suggestion, where to start in order to get a first impression on Simpson's strong quartets? Thank you!


My suggestion would be the same as Art Rock's in post #5058


----------



## StevehamNY

I've never written an old-fashioned "Malice Domestic" (you know, with the inspector in the manor and all of the suspects called together in the end), but I think I may be inspired this week. Possible titles:

Murder in the Music Chamber
Murder with Strings
The Pizzicato Murders (too esoteric?)

ANYWAY, in all seriousness, and philosophical arguments aside (I personally don't care how many whatever's are nominated in a row), I think the essential problem this week is that if you don't happen to own the one CD containing this work, you cannot participate in the discussion. First time this has happened here, to my knowledge.

Unless I unleash the powers of Amazon Prime, I probably wouldn't even have the CD in time. Which leaves one last remedy, which I'll offer here for anyone else who might consider it: If you go to the Hyperion site (https://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA66419 if you want the exact page for Simpson #1 and #4) or wherever else you get your downloads (assuming you ever do), then you can grab either the entire CD or just the first quartet if you want to give it a try.

If I have to do that once a year, it's a small price to pay for what I've gained here (you know, the invaluable research for the murder mystery), but I understand if you feel differently.


----------



## Merl

I called in a favour and got to listen to the Simpson 1st (and 4th) quartet before but they're not rocking my world on initial play. I had to turn the 1st quartet off during the 2nd movement as I couldn't connect with it at all. The 4th left me similarly cold. Yet I can listen to Bartok! Go figure! I'll try again tomorrow.


----------



## SearsPoncho

Steve, I'm also a big fan of "Malice-Domestic." This was the first one I thought of (and it has a priceless Steinway):






Nominators must choose a string quartet and they are limited to one selection. Those are the only restrictions on this thread. As to what is "beneficial," that's a judgment call; it's, dare I say, subjective.


----------



## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Steve, I'm also a big fan of "Malice-Domestic." This was the first one I thought of (and it has a priceless Steinway):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nominators must choose a string quartet and they are limited to one selection. Those are the only restrictions on this thread. As to what is "beneficial," that's a judgment call; it's, dare I say, subjective.












But of course, a classic! (Couldn't find a gif with the mace and the Steinway...)


----------



## HerbertNorman

I was known as the pavlova of the parallels...


----------



## Merl

Listening again today to the Simpson 1st quartet, I was fine with the first movement but it's still that 2nd movement that I find problematic.


----------



## Philidor

Merl said:


> Listening again today to the Simpson 1st quartet, I was fine with the first movement but it's still that 2nd movement that I find problematic.


Oops ... with me, it is the other way round ...


----------



## HenryPenfold

Philidor said:


> Oops ... with me, it is the other way round ...


If anything, the second movement is the stronger of the two, IMO.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Kreisler jr said:


> It's not against any rules, but while everything is allowed not everything is equally beneficial, to paraphrase St. Paul.
> I remember some people here being, to put it mildly, disappointed, because their choices were all but ignored and barely commented on by the others (despite being available on youtube or free streaming).
> As well as some people basically leaving this thread because there were too many works in a row they could not connect with at all.


With 3,777 active members on the forum, it's a mystery to me why this thread attracts not much more than a handful of contributors each week.


----------



## HerbertNorman

I've got my hands on a copy of this one. Good thing that I know a few people who like classical. Certainly not bad at first listen. But I have to listen to it again I reckon. It doesn't come close to Shostakovich or Bartók for me, but that's not fair...

I'm just glad to get to know some more new work!


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> With 3,777 active members on the forum, it's a mystery to me why this thread attracts not much more than a handful of contributors each week.


Tbh, Henry, you could say the same about most of the threads on here. It's nothing to do with the music. You'd be surprised how many people actually read the stuff we write but just don't comment or get involved. Lots of people are just content to sit, read and lurk without getting their feet wet. Sometimes it's fear of looking stupid, fear of not fitting in, nervousness.... Lots of reasons. I understand it with newbs but not with those who have been members for much longer. But hey ho, it's just summat we have to accept. I modded on a rock forum with 5 times our numbers at TC and traffic was just as low on there but as soon as there was a problem with the site we'd have many threads bursting at the seams with the same clientelle.

At least when we do get input it's usually of a decent quality (apart from the pish I write). Lol. Hope you've sorted your Istanbul living arrangements out. When can I come for a cheap holiday? :lol:


----------



## StevehamNY

So I've been aware of the numerous Simpson string quartets for a while now, but I never really got to experience them because of the unique paywall his music lives behind. (As was noted here in the beginning of the week, you literally can't hear a complete work without buying a CD or a download.) Now that I have the #1/#4, I finally have the chance. 

But before I even begin, there's something I can't help noticing: If you search for reviews and commentary on this site, or really anywhere else on the Interwebs, you're going to find a WILDLY diverse range of opinion. And not just the natural disagreement you'd find about any composer in any time period. More of an absolute love-it-or-hate-it thing that reminds me of that marmite stuff you Brits put on your toast. Is there something specific about this music that causes such a divide? Or is it just another one of those musical mysteries?


----------



## Bulldog

HenryPenfold said:


> With 3,777 active members on the forum, it's a mystery to me why this thread attracts not much more than a handful of contributors each week.


To me, active members are those who post at least on a daily basis; that number is way less.

I rarely read or post to this thread, because I'm a busy boy with the TC games run by myself and Art Rock. So I need to spend the remainder of my time here wisely and don't consider it wise to get involved with time-consuming threads.


----------



## Knorf

I'd really like to hear the Simpson First Quartet. I've mixed feelings about his music in general, but in general what I know is from his symphonic output, so I'm quite curious about his chamber music. 

When I don't post here too often, it's mainly because I get busy or occupied with other stuff. Sometimes it's also because I just don't wish to write anything negative about a given week's choice. But this is one of a very few threads I follow closely, and I almost always put in a little effort when it's music I don't know. 

This thread has put me in touch with a number of quartets I didn't know before and now like very much, the most recent example being the RVW Second. For that, and others, I am really grateful.


----------



## HenryPenfold

HerbertNorman said:


> View attachment 164615
> 
> 
> I've got my hands on a copy of this one. Good thing that I know a few people who like classical. Certainly not bad at first listen. But I have to listen to it again I reckon. It doesn't come close to Shostakovich or Bartók for me, but that's not fair...
> 
> I'm just glad to get to know some more new work!


I've just finished listening to this quartet again this morning and no matter how many times I hear it, it always sounds fresh, inventive and I always pick up on something that I've not appreciated before.

As his first published work in the genre, it is a remarkably bold statement containing much that would become Simpson's trademark.

Should anyone be underwhelmed on first listen, I would urge repeated listens (not necessarily this week, but over time). One may not arrive at Art Rock's conclusion about Simpson's quartets, but you may understand why he sees it that way.

Edit: and do read the commentaries in the link I provide, they are really useful in navigating this remarkable and intense music.


----------



## SearsPoncho

I haven't been able to listen to this week's quartet. Sorry. Believe me, I've tried. I did hear the short 2nd movement of the 8th quartet and am currently listening to the string orchestra arrangement of the 3rd. I like what I've heard so far. Based on what I'm hearing and the enthusiastic endorsements of ArtRock and Henry, I'll probably just buy the cd. It wouldn't be the first time I made a "blind" purchase.


----------



## HerbertNorman

I listened to the first again yesterday and it does live up to the label "intense" that Henry put on it. Taste is something personal, we all know that...

As has been pointed out it will take some time to appreciate the music to its fullest imo and I think I will buy a disc with his later SQs too. Don't like the way it has been put behind a paywall like Steve indicated , doesn't benefit the music becoming more "popular", ie more listened to imho .

I've been listening to a lot of string quartets the last few weeks and Simpson's definitely is not amongst the "worst" I've come across. Yet I don't see it as one of the best I've listened to either ... still has to grow on me...


----------



## Burbage

When it comes to string quartets, it is only a matter of time before someone plays the Robert Simpson card, around whom there's arisen something of a cult. This is, possibly, due to the spare number of recordings and performances which, to the true adherent, must surely seem an act of 'cancelling', a conspiracy of wilful neglect of a composer who once filled the airwaves.

It is, however, also true that Robert Simpson, in his compositional heyday, also practiced as a radio producer, with responsibility for deciding what those airwaves should be filled with. And it might conceivably be that, given the chance, he may have been tempted to view his own output with more gratifying innocence that it necessarily merited, in the way a grocer might carol about the lustre of his onions while drawing concomitantly less attention to the presence of a finger that shared the scales.

Suffice it to say, however, that he was reputed to be a kind and generous man, at least by anyone who played, published or recorded his music. How universally that reputation was shared is a very different question, but we can be sure he considered himself a dutiful British composer, in that he wrote occasional letters to newspapers lambasting the BBC, a compositional practice that's been passed from one generation of British composers to the next since the BBC first drew breath on the airwaves, even though most have partly depended, in one way or another, on the BBC for a living.

So far, so inconclusive.

Simpson's music, however, is a far cry from Rubbra*. Most obviously, it's very much its own sort of thing. It's perhaps 'romantic' and perhaps 'neo-classical' and perhaps 'modern', and that's all a bit unsettling. It's also all tonal, more-or-less; at least there aren't many subjectively dissonant passages and, on the whole, it sounds like music of the traditional, inoffensive sort. But it's a strangely different tradition. There are plenty of melodies and oodles of counterpoint and a gallimaufry of fragments that never quite settle or stick. It's as if, should such things as ear-worms exist, Simpson found an efficient cure.

What I get from Simpson is the feeling of being in a familiar, unusual, intricate and wholly natural, space. It's like a boring commute in a town you've never been to before, to a job you've never done. For some, that's what makes it interesting. Every time you expect something to happen, something different happens, but it sounds much as you would have expected, if you'd expected it. In that sense, it's like a civilised sort of roller-coaster; catnip to some, emetic to others.

More interestingly is that it all sounds like Simpson. There's little chance, I think, that I'd mistake any stretch of this for a piece for someone else, even and that, alone, puts him alongside his beloved Nielsen (a few echoes of whom can be found in this first quartet), if not in the ranks of Bartok or Shostakovich. I can't exactly say how he manages that, but the liner-notes might be unusually helpful here by highlighting the (invisible and, to me, inaudible) palindromic games, I'm reminded of the coincidental abstractions of a crossword, a mosaic of unrelated words, skilfully fitted together by alphabetical chance. That's not to say that Simpson is bland, and there's plenty of dynamic range, but his conflicts are more in the way of polite academic disagreements, and their emotions seem filtered by thoughtful arrangement. Overall, the impression is of wistfulness and, perhaps, a nostalgia that comes through in the apparent quotations and carillions and fugatos and passacaglias based on half-remembered things.

Why, or if, this is what he was aiming for, I'm not sure. The publicists invariably mention Simpson's interest in astronomy, a hobby that involves sitting in the cold and the dark watching the alien wonders pass indifferently across unimaginable distances. And perhaps a clue is there, perhaps Simpson was chasing the pythagorean ideal of the music of the spheres. Though that was an anti-romantic search for some absolute music that existed above our earthy realm and, if truth be told, the search was more exciting than the result. The mathematically elegant waveforms of our more ethereal instruments - the theremin or the glass harmonica - look pretty on the oscilloscope but, lacking any timbre, are hard to listen to for long, and it's clear Simpson's aim was a more conventional sort of order.

I'm very fond of Simpson's quartets, and can even enjoy the monstrous 9th. They take me to a seemingly unique musical place that I can cheerfully lose myself in, even if I don't quite understand it. That said, I'm not (yet) a paid-up member of the cult, and can see exactly why some people mightn't rate it very highly as, in many carefully-constructed ways, it's neither one thing or another. It's not wholly academic, nor accessible, neither iconoclastic nor traditional, but somehow it's all of them. In that, I'm reminded a little of the strange, cloistered world of Hesse's _Glass Bead Game_ which was, itself, something of a cult, though Simpson's world is hardly so exclusive**. I mightn't be a paid-up member of the fan-club, but I can see why so many are.

* _Rubbra's intriguing 2nd Quartet, written at about the same time, more clearly emerges from the world of Holst and VW._ (



)
** _For those who can surmount (or circumvent) the paywall, which admittedly undermines the point. But that's not Simpson's fault, however much he might have hoped that artists might get paid._


----------



## Malx

I really shouldn't attempt to follow Burbage on a Friday but with the way time has worked out this week - here I am.

Before I start my ramblings a little tale. 
I came across an old cassette (yes I know, no laughter please) I had of this piece but the mechanism was jammed and in my efforts to free it up I wrecked the thing. Within the case was a scrap of paper where I had written a note, something I did regularly in my early days of listening to classical music, This note simply said:
"Thick textures, slow development, a bit academic"

With some help I have managed to listen to an mp3 file of Simpsons first quartet four times during the week. I am not really further forward than I was after the first listen - I liked the first movement less than the second on first listen which by the third listen had changed to the other way around. This morning I tried again, my conclusion - I don't know which I prefer.

So, I began to think is this quartet a bit of a curate's egg, no, because that would imply that some of it was not so good which I don't believe to be the case. There is a lot to like about the work but I am unsure of what kind of stylistic area it falls into - it is not overtly modern but not old fashioned, there is no great dissonance, at least to my ear, yet melodies aren't too obvious. 

My conclusion is this is a quartet that is in some ways enigmatic yet it has a difficult to describe allure for me. One thing is for sure it has got me thinking about trying to listen to more of Simpsons quartets - if that is possible.

Despite the challenges of getting access to the work thanks for the choice Henry.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Not having free access to this week's quartet besides 45-second samples from Hyperion's website, I decided to sample the only chamber work by Simpson that I could find on streaming instead: his Clarinet Quintet on a Lyrita recording paired with his 5th and 6th symphonies. This music is in an idiom that I find tough to love-very chromatic, frequently aggressive, but rather meandering and aimless to my ears. There are interesting moments, no doubt, but I find it very hard to sustain attention with it because there are very few clear-cut melodies or reference points in the structure. In summary, my reaction was precisely Malx's even though the piece was different. Maybe some day I will give his music another shot and perhaps spring for a Hyperion download to take a true dive into his quartets and symphonies.

As the de facto "leader" of this thread, I hope everyone is OK if I take the liberty of adding an additional rule (the only other set-in-stone one being "only one quartet per week"): *Please make sure that a free recording is available for each selection on YouTube and/or streaming.* I would really like to actually listen to each work that is nominated, but I only pay for recordings that I genuinely enjoy (and which are not otherwise available) and if I'm not sure that I will, it's a bit of a gamble that, while only a minor inconvenience, remains a probably unnecessary one for many. It also ensures that as many people as possible participate in the thread, even if numbers are unfortunately appearing to dwindle of late anyway. I'm open to objections to this rule if someone really wants to state a case to the contrary.

Back to the schedule: *Carmina Banana* is our next nominator.

Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman

*Philidor*, you've been contributing lately. Would you like to be added to the list?


----------



## Philidor

Allegro Con Brio said:


> [ ... ]
> 
> *Philidor*, you've been contributing lately. Would you like to be added to the list?


I do not exactly know what it means to "be on the list", but yes - string quartets are in the centre of my interest.

Thank you for asking!


----------



## Merl

Philidor said:


> I do not exactly know what it means to "be on the list", but yes - string quartets are in the centre of my interest.
> 
> Thank you for asking!


I sent you a PM. Hope that explains it.


----------



## Philidor

It did explain ... thank you so much! Glad to be on the list now. Looking forward to discussing inspiringly here.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Tbh, Henry, you could say the same about most of the threads on here


But this is "the best thread on the forum" n'est-ce pas?


----------



## Merl

BTW, Philidor, although I, personally, concentrate on the recordings (that's just my thing) the focus here is mostly centred around discussing the quartets themselves (meaning, structure, context, etc). The reason I comcentrate on the recordings is probably because my musical knowledge and terminology is rather limited. I do have a pair of ears though and can say what I feel sounds good to me.



HenryPenfold said:


> But this is "the best thread on the forum" n'est-ce pas?


Of course it is.


----------



## Philidor

Hi Merl, if it doesn't work for the ears, it doesn't work at all ... whatever your brain might have grasped from the score. - However, sometimes the brain might give a hint to the ears.


----------



## Knorf

I finally got around to hearing the Simpson First Quartet; a friend lowned me a recording and I found another moment to listen attentively, after being interrupted the first time.

As I mentioned upthread, I was previously only acquainted with Simpson via his symphonic output, which honestly I have mixed feelings about. I wondered whether the more intimate nature of the string quartet might seem a more satisfying (to me) venue for his sound world. And, I think it is! 

It's a piece full of surprises. The way it starts out, I more than half expected something akin to a Moeran-esque pastorale rumination (not that there's anything wrong with that), but in actuality there's so much more going with this! 

Comparisons to the conflicted and complex musical expression, juxtaposed with a sort of academic and sometimes, yes, pastorale naivete, that one finds in Shostakovich, are apt, I deem. To me, it makes for a compelling listening experience for sure.

The second movement seems to have been a problematic movement to some, and I think I can hear why. To me, it is sort of like getting mired in depressive thoughts, being stuck and finding oneself unable to direct one's thoughts away from obsessive, dark circling, and towards a more positive direction. The strict palindromic structure of the variations contributes to this. But then it does indeed finally get going, and the creative spirit breaks free, as it were, of the rigid variation structure of palindromes. 

A welcome, restful state of something like the first movement's pastorale naivete returns to end the quartet.

All in all, a very enjoyable twenty-five minutes to listen to this distinctive and unusual music.


----------



## Carmina Banana

I love all of the modern selections we have had lately; I have discovered some composers and rediscovered some pieces that I had only given a brief listen to many years ago.
However, because my first great love was the classical era, I am taking us back to the days of powdered wigs and quill pens. I was surprised to see that, according to the list, Mozart has only been represented once(!). To remedy that, I have selected the *quartet #22 in Bb K. 589.*
I almost went with one of the "Haydn" quartets which are generally considered to be greater works, but I like the idea of a quartet that clocks in around 20 minutes or so; we can get more listens in. Also, since we recently had a quartet that featured the viola, I thought it would be fun to have one that features cello. 
I will include some details in a bit-I have a short gig to do right now-but I wanted to get this going.


----------



## Mandryka

Mozart’s last phase, simple and lyrical music, sometimes almost faux naive - I’ve always found it really appealing. Just compare what happens in this quartet K 589 with any of the Mozart/Haydn set - they’re worlds apart.


----------



## Merl

Great choice, CB. Bout time we had some Mozart. :tiphat:

Edit: seems Iike I may have a busy week. 50 recordings at least. Lol


----------



## SearsPoncho

Thank goodness! I only listen to Mozart on days ending in "y," and as a Mozart addict, I look forward to chasing the dragon this week. Of course, with Mozart, I catch the dragon. Over and over again.


----------



## Philidor

Is there a list which contains the quartets already elected for "Quartet of the week"?

And yes, great choice! Looking forward to listening ...


----------



## Kreisler jr

List is in the first post in the thread.

Nice choice; a rather overlooked piece, it must be one of least recorded mature Mozart quartets. I think I have only 3 recordings (while probably almost 10 of K 465). Alban Berg, Hagen, Petersen.


----------



## Philidor

Kreisler jr said:


> List is in the first post in the thread.


Thank you! ... nice list ... some gaps with Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Bartók, yes ... Schönberg #2 was already chosen, too bad ... but there is enough left.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Note that there has not been any (central) planning. All pieces were just suggestions by the members although many apparently did care for some variety, not just going for narrow favorites at any opportunity.


----------



## Philidor

Oh, don't get me wrong ... I do not complain at all ...  ... and yes, the mixture of variety and core repertoire, of "well-known" and "off the beaten track" is impressive, given that there was no coordination.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Not having free access to this week's quartet besides 45-second samples from Hyperion's website, I decided to sample the only chamber work by Simpson that I could find on streaming instead: his Clarinet Quintet on a Lyrita recording paired with his 5th and 6th symphonies. This music is in an idiom that I find tough to love-very chromatic, frequently aggressive, but rather meandering and aimless to my ears. There are interesting moments, no doubt, but I find it very hard to sustain attention with it because there are very few clear-cut melodies or reference points in the structure. In summary, my reaction was precisely Malx's even though the piece was different. Maybe some day I will give his music another shot and perhaps spring for a Hyperion download to take a true dive into his quartets and symphonies.
> 
> As the de facto "leader" of this thread, I hope everyone is OK if I take the liberty of adding an additional rule (the only other set-in-stone one being "only one quartet per week"): *Please make sure that a free recording is available for each selection on YouTube and/or streaming.* I would really like to actually listen to each work that is nominated, but I only pay for recordings that I genuinely enjoy (and which are not otherwise available) and if I'm not sure that I will, it's a bit of a gamble that, while only a minor inconvenience, remains a probably unnecessary one for many. It also ensures that as many people as possible participate in the thread, even if numbers are unfortunately appearing to dwindle of late anyway. I'm open to objections to this rule if someone really wants to state a case to the contrary.
> 
> Back to the schedule: *Carmina Banana* is our next nominator.
> 
> Carmina Banana
> StevehamNY
> Burbage
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> Kreisler jr
> allaroundmusicenthusiast
> HerbertNorman
> 
> *Philidor*, you've been contributing lately. Would you like to be added to the list?


I don't think the suggested rule is a good idea. In the unlikely event of a work being unavailable, there's always a workaround. This week, files were forwarded, some listened to the CDs they owned and someone even bought a recording.

Those of us who count composers and instrumentalists among our friends will know how little, if anything, they get from streaming. The complaints we've heard this week about a 'paywall' and the practice of not buying and collecting recordings, I think are disgraceful. Where do people think the music's gonna come from if we don't stick our hands in our pockets?

The problem isn't availability of recordings but parsimony and a lack of interest in anything outside of the usual suspects. Merl, who is an important player in this thread, got his hands on a recording and said he had to switch it off part way through the second movement. There's an open mind! Of course we can all get super excited about the forthcoming Mozart!

A few months ago I was canvassed to join in, and I found this thread to be excellent (Berg, Schoenberg, Dvorak, Haydn and a few others). Now I think the thread has degenerated. I'm quite sad about it.

I haven't chosen my words carefully and this post seems impolite, but it's how I feel.


----------



## Knorf

HenryPenfold makes a good point (and not impolitely, in my opinion.) There's slightly too strong and persistent a desire for so much of our listening to be free. This is an endemic problem. "Free" for this incredible access is definitely slowly killing the very thing we love. So it would be good to be a little more active in putting our money where our obsession is. I am glad to get to know more from Robert Simpson, and will be doing just that.

Having said that, it's not always possible to get hold of a recording so quickly, with under one week's notice! I have chosen a couple quartets with only a single recording available, but I did make sure there was a streaming option available to ensure people got a chance to hear them during their selection week. 

So I think it's fair guideline. 

But HenryPenfold isn't wrong.


----------



## Malx

Knorf said:


> HenryPenfold makes a good point (and not impolitely, in my opinion.) There's slightly too strong a wish for our listening to be free, as always. But "free" for this incredible access is definitely slowly killing the very thing we love. So it would be good to be a little more active in putting our money where our obsession is. I am glad to get know more from Robert Simpson, and will be doing just that.
> 
> Having said that, it's not always possible to get hold of a recording so quickly, with under one week's notice! I have chosen a couple quartets with only a so for recording available, but I did make sure there was a streaming option available to make sure people got a chance to hear them during their selection week.
> 
> So I think it's fair guideline.
> 
> But HenryPenfold isn't wrong.


I'll second Knorf's post if I may - I was about to post something similar, but probably wouldn't have put it so well!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> I don't think the suggested rule is a good idea. In the unlikely event of a work being unavailable, there's always a workaround. This week, files were forwarded, some listened to the CDs they owned and someone even bought a recording.
> 
> Those of us who count composers and instrumentalists among our friends will know how little, if anything, they get from streaming. The complaints we've heard this week about a 'paywall' and the practice of not buying and collecting recordings, I think are disgraceful. Where do people think the music's gonna come from if we don't stick our hands in our pockets?
> 
> The problem isn't availability of recordings but parsimony and a lack of interest in anything outside of the usual suspects. Merl, who is an important player in this thread, got his hands on a recording and said he had to switch it off part way through the second movement. There's an open mind! Of course we can all get super excited about the forthcoming Mozart!
> 
> A few months ago I was canvassed to join in, and I found this thread to be excellent (Berg, Schoenberg, Dvorak, Haydn and a few others). Now I think the thread has degenerated. I'm quite sad about it.
> 
> I haven't chosen my words carefully and this post seems impolite, but it's how I feel.


Thanks for your thoughts, I don't think you were impolite at all. All valid points, and I don't really have any counter-points. Anyone can feel free to nominate as they wish.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> The problem isn't availability of recordings but parsimony and a lack of interest in anything outside of the usual suspects. Merl, who is an important player in this thread, got his hands on a recording and said he had to switch it off part way through the second movement. There's an open mind! Of course we can all get super excited about the forthcoming Mozart!
> 
> A few months ago I was canvassed to join in, and I found this thread to be excellent (Berg, Schoenberg, Dvorak, Haydn and a few others). Now I think the thread has degenerated. I'm quite sad about it.
> 
> I haven't chosen my words carefully and this post seems impolite, but it's how I feel.


Henry, I'm sorry if my comment annoyed you. It wasn't meant to. I was just being honest on my first listen. As for being open-minded I reckon that I am. If I like something I like it regardless of whether it's old, new or whatever. I have stopped commenting on those quartets I really don't connect with at all so maybe I shouldn't have said anything this time too, and I won't bother posting anything negative in future. I did say later that I had listened again and still had trouble with the 2nd movement but not say anything else negative. Btw, my final personal impression of the Simpson is that I enjoyed the first movement but not the 2nd so it was a hit and miss for me. I've yet to properly listen to any more Simpson Quartets but that one quartet certainly hasn't put me off and I don't expect my comments to put too many people off either (I'm sure people can listen for themselves and make their minds up). I purposely moved my comments about many of the recording s outside this thread and blogged them as I didn't want to seem like I was hogging the comments. Yes, I still link my review of that week's quartet (if I liked it) but I always stress that you don't need to read it and it's only my personal opinion.

I think you make some good points in your post about taking a chance and supporting artists and I always like your picks as they challenge me. Some I like, some I don't. I've no agenda, it either clicks or doesn't. I like the spread of quartets on this thread and it's good that we've finally got a Mozart quartet (the last one must be a few years back at least) and considering his importance and large number of quartets it's a surprise he's only popped up once before. As I said, I'm truly sorry that what I wrote p*ssed you off, Henry, and it's duly noted.


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## starthrower

I wasn't aware that files were being shared. I'd like to listen to the Simpson quartet. Normally I just buy the CD but I've cut way back on my classical CD purchases. My house isn't getting any bigger and I've been buying CDs since 1984. Luckily my wife is a music fan too so she is understanding about my highly impractical obsession for collecting plastic discs.


----------



## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> I don't think the suggested rule is a good idea. In the unlikely event of a work being unavailable, there's always a workaround. This week, files were forwarded, some listened to the CDs they owned and someone even bought a recording.
> 
> Those of us who count composers and instrumentalists among our friends will know how little, if anything, they get from streaming. The complaints we've heard this week about a 'paywall' and the practice of not buying and collecting recordings, I think are disgraceful. Where do people think the music's gonna come from if we don't stick our hands in our pockets?
> 
> The problem isn't availability of recordings but parsimony and a lack of interest in anything outside of the usual suspects. Merl, who is an important player in this thread, got his hands on a recording and said he had to switch it off part way through the second movement. There's an open mind! Of course we can all get super excited about the forthcoming Mozart!
> 
> A few months ago I was canvassed to join in, and I found this thread to be excellent (Berg, Schoenberg, Dvorak, Haydn and a few others). Now I think the thread has degenerated. I'm quite sad about it.
> 
> I haven't chosen my words carefully and this post seems impolite, but it's how I feel.


I've spoken to enough professional musicians to know that streaming sites pay them nothing or virtually nothing. I've said as much right here in this forum. And it's one reason why I continue to buy dozens of albums every year. I can't even imagine what life as an author would be like if readers could "stream" books off some site or read them for free on something like YouTube. (YouRead?)

I did buy the Simpson Volume 1 album this week (SQ #1/#4) with no regrets, but I had no choice but to buy the download online because I wouldn't have gotten my hands on a CD until the next week. Fortunately, it wasn't a problem for me, even if I'm still old-fashioned enough to prefer buying a real tangible thing. (And yes, I just heard myself refer to buying a digitized compact disc as "old-fashioned.")

I think I was the one who introduced the word "paywall" here, but if I had any problem it was purely a matter of convenience and not being able to listen to this week's quartet immediately. I'll never, ever complain about supporting musicians!

But in the end, it's all good, because God knows there are bigger problems in the world right now.


----------



## Carmina Banana

Henry,

Maybe this isn’t your intention, but I feel like whenever I make a selection, you comment about the “degeneration” of this thread.


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## HenryPenfold

Carmina Banana said:


> Henry,
> 
> Maybe this isn't your intention, but I feel like whenever I make a selection, you comment about the "degeneration" of this thread.


Tell me more, especially since I value your contributions to this thread, I think you add value. But do tell me more.


----------



## Merl

I probably enjoy the Prussian quartets a little more than many as I have a love of a really good cello tone so this quartet suits me down to the ground (it was written for a cello-playing King after all) . I know others are less enamoured with them. The hard part, I've always thought, in recording them is balancing out these bass-heavy pieces so they sound beautifully poised. Recordings that really resonate with me do just that so a few recordings that mess up the soundstage (the Eders, for example, who are otherwise very good but recorded in what seems like a cavern) won't quite make the cut no matter how well they perform. It's not about the age of the recording but how they maintain equilibrium. There's many ways to play K589 and you'll no doubt hear everything from a lither, lighter lyrical approach (Klenke) right up to the bolder, more visceral (often termed as 'later Mozart') approach. Tbh, I'm OK with either and I'll try and make note of this in my final blog comments. You'll find a wide range of views on recordings with that in mind. I hope you can find something that suits your particular tastes (I have quite a few to listen to at home). I must admit that exceptionally dry recordings can sound very harsh here but it's not a deal breaker. There are many excellent accounts to choose from.


----------



## Kjetil Heggelund

I like to hear all the Prussians "in a row", but quartets don't always group them together on one album. The Mosaiques have it with another of my favorites (Hoffmeister). I never thought of the Prussian being "bass-heavy", but like beefy bass and the Mosaiques don't do that. They are nice and calm and very proper in a good way. When I heard them ages ago, they were almost "hyped up", being authentic and all, but I thought they were dry and boring. So now I like them a lot. Not dry and boring, but elegant and well balanced and great acoustics.


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## Kreisler jr

The "Prussian" quartets are only "bass heavy" insofar that esp. the first two give the 'cello important solos because the King of Prussia played the instrument and was fond of it (had some famous players at his court, too lazy to look up names but 10 years later Beethoven wrote his op.5 sonatas for him). Otherwise they are elegant and brilliant pieces, on the surface a bit "lighter" and not as obviously ambitious as the "Haydn" set (although I think this doesn't apply to the "Hunt" K 458). 
For some reason, K 575 seems the most popular of the "Prussian" set and although the last one, K 590 seems the most elusive I have 3 more separate recordings of that one while K 589 only in "sets". 
I listened to the 1970s ABQ and 1991 Petersen and I probably preferred the former for their warm and beautiful sound, especially of the cello (Valentin Erben). The Petersen are "lighter" and don't have such a great sound but also good. The slow movement really lets the cello shine, it's one of the most beautiful among Mozart's quartets. There is also a fairly long and weighty menuet+trio whereas the finale is the shortest and lightest among the "Prussians".


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> Otherwise they are elegant and brilliant pieces, on the surface a bit "lighter" and not as obviously ambitious as the "Haydn" set (although I think this doesn't apply to the "Hunt" K 458).


A fun fact about K. 590:
"Mozart connoisseurs and admirers know of course about what is bizarre in the finale of his very last string quartet, K. 590. In its development the harshness of the tone language is particularly unparalleled in the Mozart oeuvre. But the unsettling already starts shortly before the end of the first section: The otherwise so airily sparkling sixteenth notes stall all of a sudden in an almost stranded-like repetitive three-note kink. It is just this spot that Mozart vehemently corrected in his manuscript. 
This spluttering three-note figure, in itself circular, seized up, as it were, against the meter,








_Mm. 122-125, vln 1_​dominates the whole development after its first occurrence and is, of course, heard once again at the end of the movement. Mozart later scrupulously corrected it wherever and in whichever part it appears as well. And indeed, to be specific, its articulation. If in the first draft he had always put sixteenths together in a large legato phrase, then he later corrected the legato (but did not cross it out or erase it in the autograph) by placing under the respective notes the familiar two-note grouping of slurs and staccatos:








_Autograph, mm. 122-125, vln 1_​To date I have never encountered any other autograph where Mozart made such a striking, systematic change in the articulation. Notes, yes, dynamics, yes, but articulation over such a long stretch? ..."
<The charm of the unsettling. A special autograph correction of Mozart's in the finale of the F-major string quartet K. 590>


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> I probably enjoy the Prussian quartets a little more than many as I have a love of a really good cello tone so this quartet suits me down to the ground (it was written for a cello-playing King after all) . I know others are less enamoured with them. The hard part, I've always thought, in recording them is balancing out these bass-heavy pieces so they sound beautifully poised. Recordings that really resonate with me do just that so a few recordings that mess up the soundstage (the Eders, for example, who are otherwise very good but recorded in what seems like a cavern) won't quite make the cut no matter how well they perform. It's not about the age of the recording but how they maintain equilibrium. There's many ways to play K589 and you'll no doubt hear everything from a lither, lighter lyrical approach (Klenke) right up to the bolder, more visceral (often termed as 'later Mozart') approach. Tbh, I'm OK with either and I'll try and make note of this in my final blog comments. You'll find a wide range of views on recordings with that in mind. I hope you can find something that suits your particular tastes (I have quite a few to listen to at home). I must admit that exceptionally dry recordings can sound very harsh here but it's not a deal breaker. There are many excellent accounts to choose from.


Merl,

You've listened to more string quartet recordings than anyone. You brought up balance, and I was wondering if there are certain labels that are better at reproducing or capturing the natural balance of a string quartet performance, in light of the score. Supraphon (Paavel Haas Qt. and Panocha Quartet) seems to do a great job with audio quality and balance, producing a clear, vivid sound for each instrument that sounds natural, without any muddiness. From the recordings I've heard, which is a lot, DG is pretty inconsistent.


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## Carmina Banana

HenryPenfold said:


> Tell me more, especially since I value your contributions to this thread, I think you add value. But do tell me more.


That's all really. I was just hoping I wasn't the main degenerate. But if you value my contributions, I guess all is well.


----------



## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl,
> 
> You've listened to more string quartet recordings than anyone. You brought up balance, and I was wondering if there are certain labels that are better at reproducing or capturing the natural balance of a string quartet performance, in light of the score. Supraphon (Paavel Haas Qt. and Panocha Quartet) seems to do a great job with audio quality and balance, producing a clear, vivid sound for each instrument that sounds natural, without any muddiness. From the recordings I've heard, which is a lot, DG is pretty inconsistent.


In short. No. Like I said in the other thread it's not just about labels or ensembles. So many variables - venue, engineers, etc. Take Naxos, for example. Some of their recordings sound great, yet in this Mozart the Eders are done no favours by a very cavernous sound that buries the violins. Such a shame. No one gets it right EVERY time but I will say that that last batch of SQ recordings on Hyperion (especially the Takacs ones) had very special sound and the newer BIS recordings also tend to have rather excellent sound. However, with modern technology even the small labels are giving their ensembles a fighting chance (some of the Cedille stuff sounds great, Tacet, Gramola, MDG, etc). Tbh, there's no excuse for rubbish sound these days. Engineers have everything at their disposal to make their ensembles sound great. Whether you like the sound of a disc personally is still down to personal taste though (some engineers prefer a very close-up sound, others like a slightly drier one - or sometimes both). I have noticed that a lot of the HIP SQ recordings are pretty consistently excellent these days.

Btw, before when I said 'bass heavy', as Kreisler alluded to, I actually was meaning cello heavy but I was referring to the bassier timbre of the instrument and how I particularly enjoy how Mozart uses the upper register of the cello extensively and then returns to the lower register for accompaniment sporadically. I find this really effective in this quartet and emphasizes the cello brilliantly. Mozart plays with this throughout the whole quartet. 'Bass heavy' was an unfortunate choice of phrase so apologies if I made this sound like Mozart was channeling Black Sabbath! That's not what I meant.


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## Mandryka

Just noticed that the Kolich recorded it, an Archiphon cd. And that seems to start a tradition of 589 interpretation whose latest incarnation is the Engergård.


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## Philidor

Mandryka said:


> Just noticed that the Kolich recorded it, an Archiphon cd. And that seems to start a tradition of 589 interpretation whose latest incarnation is the Engergård.


Indeed ... in 1938. Rudolf Kolisch, Felix Khuner, Eugen Lehner, Benar Heifetz (not related to Jascha)


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## Carmina Banana

As I listen to this wonderful piece that Mozart tossed off during his final years, I find myself once again amazed at how this composer could write music filled with such joy and innocence while his life was full of job uncertainties, debt, health problems, etc. As I page through some biographies piled in front of me (amazing how many people felt like they needed to write one), I get a picture of a man who is desperate for that big break. If he could only get his demo to that big producer…
And yet he was able to produce gems of chamber music like this not mention a masterpiece like Magic Flute, which, again, is filled with serene joy, so contrary to his life circumstances. Anytime Mozart writes in a minor key, we tend to attribute to some sadness in his life. When he wrote sunny music, he was just a very good composer.
By the way, I have read contrary reports about the commission for these quartets. One source said they probably weren’t commissioned at all, but merely meant as a gift. Another said he was paid well by the King for the first of the set and then ended up selling the next two for peanuts. If anyone knows the truth, let me know.

My ideal performance of this will be refined and elegant, sensitive but not too subjective, joyful and humorous but not raucous. Above all, I want to feel unconcerned about the world when listening, like I am reclined on a cloud and cherubs are feeding me grapes.
Among my listening so far, a couple have stood out:
The Jerusalem Quartet was beautiful. It brought out the joy with many subtle touches. They start the first theme with great tenderness—there is wonderful smoothness to that first six note figure—but balance it with some aggression in the rest of the movement. The second movement is a nice relaxed tempo and has the repose I am craving in this movement. The Menuetto has strong accents but an aristocratic dance-like quality. I love the elegant way they round off the menuetto section. The trio is more energetic, but very light and fun. Finale is fun and fast, but a hushed sort of fun. The fortes are more of a sudden emphasis than a sustained dynamic. Overall, very smart, sophisticated and subtle. 
The Armida Quartet did not please at first listen, but I appreciate what they do. Overall, I feel like they are trying to “make something” of this piece and sometimes forcing it a bit. Most of the movements are too fast in my opinion and they lose some of the charm and elegance. The menuetto comes off as sassy and the trio, which is played faster by most, sounds virtuosic here, which is not the point and is followed by too much rubato. The last movement is too fast and show-offy but I will hand it to them for really making the piano and forte clear in the opening. 
I almost forgot to mention my biggest problem with this performance: that opening figure is pretty clearly appoggiaturas, not grace notes. This just seems like an attempt to contrary. If you are not following a score, the opening usually sounds like a half note followed by four even sixteenth notes, but for the Armidas it is an awkward, quick ornament.


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## Knorf

Honestly, until I read it on TC (mostly in another thread), I had zero idea that anyone thought that the "Hoffmeister" and "Prussian" quartets were anything other than the "usual" stellar Mozart. I find their seemingly effortless charm and innumerable truly inspired moments as engaging and intriguing as anything he wrote!

As far the prominent cello line goes, I'm baffled as to how _that_ could be considered anything other than a plus! Mozart's solution in basically making all four parts more roughly equal as soloists is handled with his usual inimitable skillfulness.

I know, _de gustibus non est disputandum_ and all that, but some opinions (e.g., that a lot of the later instrumental works by Mozart are somehow "disappointing") to me seem truly weird.


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## Merl

Carmina Banana said:


> As I listen to this wonderful piece that Mozart tossed off during his final years, I find myself once again amazed at how this composer could write music filled with such joy and innocence while his life was full of job uncertainties, debt, health problems, etc. As I page through some biographies piled in front of me (amazing how many people felt like they needed to write one), I get a picture of a man who is desperate for that big break. If he could only get his demo to that big producer…
> And yet he was able to produce gems of chamber music like this not mention a masterpiece like Magic Flute, which, again, is filled with serene joy, so contrary to his life circumstances. Anytime Mozart writes in a minor key, we tend to attribute to some sadness in his life. When he wrote sunny music, he was just a very good composer.
> By the way, I have read contrary reports about the commission for these quartets. One source said they probably weren't commissioned at all, but merely meant as a gift. Another said he was paid well by the King for the first of the set and then ended up selling the next two for peanuts. If anyone knows the truth, let me know.
> 
> My ideal performance of this will be refined and elegant, sensitive but not too subjective, joyful and humorous but not raucous. Above all, I want to feel unconcerned about the world when listening, like I am reclined on a cloud and cherubs are feeding me grapes.
> Among my listening so far, a couple have stood out:
> The Jerusalem Quartet was beautiful. It brought out the joy with many subtle touches. They start the first theme with great tenderness-there is wonderful smoothness to that first six note figure-but balance it with some aggression in the rest of the movement. The second movement is a nice relaxed tempo and has the repose I am craving in this movement. The Menuetto has strong accents but an aristocratic dance-like quality. I love the elegant way they round off the menuetto section. The trio is more energetic, but very light and fun. Finale is fun and fast, but a hushed sort of fun. The fortes are more of a sudden emphasis than a sustained dynamic. Overall, very smart, sophisticated and subtle.
> The Armida Quartet did not please at first listen, but I appreciate what they do. Overall, I feel like they are trying to "make something" of this piece and sometimes forcing it a bit. Most of the movements are too fast in my opinion and they lose some of the charm and elegance. The menuetto comes off as sassy and the trio, which is played faster by most, sounds virtuosic here, which is not the point and is followed by too much rubato. The last movement is too fast and show-offy but I will hand it to them for really making the piano and forte clear in the opening.
> I almost forgot to mention my biggest problem with this performance: that opening figure is pretty clearly appoggiaturas, not grace notes. This just seems like an attempt to contrary. If you are not following a score, the opening usually sounds like a half note followed by four even sixteenth notes, but for the Armidas it is an awkward, quick ornament.


Lol, CB. Great minds! I listened to the same two recordings yesterday and here's my brief notes below (plus Eder)


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## SearsPoncho

When I was 14, my English teacher gave the class the following homework assignment: Write about your perfect day. I thought it was a weird request and just wrote some junk about hanging out with my friends, riding bikes to the arcade, playing Space Invaders and Galaga, and returning home to a pizza dinner, or something like that. With the exception of the pizza, it was what I did every day. I do remember staring at the blank page, trying to think of something more interesting or elevated, but I just couldn't come up with anything else. I wanted to impress her because she was the first teacher I really admired and respected. Although she was going through brutal chemotherapy treatments, she always came to life when discussing Mark Twain, Melville, Shelley, Austen, Shakespeare, etc. Furthermore, she truly cared about her students. Five years later, I donned a black suit and walked several miles in the hot summer sun to the church where they held her funeral service. I think about her frequently, as well as that homework assignment. 

When the pandemic hit two years ago, my family and I were like most, in Shawshank, also known as lockdown central or quarantine. While I was able to do a good amount of work at home, a huge part of my job was shut down and I found myself with more free time (how do you think I found this site?:lol. Once again, my old English teacher's question occupied my mind. Amazingly, I finally had some answers I wasn't ashamed of. I'll spare you the list, but I realized that listening to Mozart was indeed part of my perfect day. I have since found time to squeeze some Mozart into every single day over the last two years. (I don't put it all under "Current Listening") His music is so natural and life-affirming that I really have become addicted to it. I love him and can't get enough of his music. 

A little over 30 years ago PBS telecast a Mostly Mozart Festival concert featuring Itzhak Perlman. Perlman was interviewed during the intermission and said he derived tremendous joy from Mozart's music because at that point in his life he was happy and content; things were good, and he further explained that when one had reached that stage of life, there was no music better than Mozart. Well, I've finally reached that stage of life and can confirm that what he said is absolutely correct. For me, Beethoven is still the greatest composer; however, as I might have previously said, when I wake up on the right side of the bed and am in good spirits, there is no composer i would rather hear than Mozart.

Mrs. Hinson, I think I'm finally ready to write that paper, and it includes a beautiful, healthy 15 year-old girl who would love to say hello.



P.S. The only recording I have of this week's quartet is by the Emerson Quartet. I can't add much to the excellent comments above, but I do think the key to an excellent performance is, surprise, the last 2 movements. That may seem like a counter-intuitive or contrarian opinion, but I believe the 1st two movements probably "play themselves" for any good, professional string quartet. The difference-maker is the ability to play the last 2 movements with the requisite swag, attitude and zip to put the perfect bow on the whole thing.


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## HerbertNorman

Carmina Banana said:


> *The Jerusalem Quartet was beautiful.* It brought out the joy with many subtle touches. They start the first theme with great tenderness-there is wonderful smoothness to that first six note figure-but balance it with some aggression in the rest of the movement. The second movement is a nice relaxed tempo and has the repose I am craving in this movement. The Menuetto has strong accents but an aristocratic dance-like quality. I love the elegant way they round off the menuetto section. The trio is more energetic, but very light and fun. Finale is fun and fast, but a hushed sort of fun. The fortes are more of a sudden emphasis than a sustained dynamic. Overall, very smart, sophisticated and subtle.
> The Armida Quartet did not please at first listen, but I appreciate what they do. Overall, I feel like they are trying to "make something" of this piece and sometimes forcing it a bit. Most of the movements are too fast in my opinion and they lose some of the charm and elegance. The menuetto comes off as sassy and the trio, which is played faster by most, sounds virtuosic here, which is not the point and is followed by too much rubato. The last movement is too fast and show-offy but I will hand it to them for really making the piano and forte clear in the opening.
> .


Well CB , you couldn't have been more spot on for me . I listened to the Jerusalem Quartet yesterday and it is by far the best one I've listened to . The other ones being the Armida and the ABQ ... 
For me it's the subtleness that does it like you say, their sound is near perfect... The cello has a part to play in this quartet as has been mentioned , yet in the Jerusalem's performance it is not overpowering , it is just right imho.


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## Mandryka

HerbertNorman said:


> Well CB , you couldn't have been more spot on for me . I listened to the Jerusalem Quartet yesterday and it is by far the best one I've listened to . The other ones being the Armida and the ABQ ...
> For me it's the subtleness that does it like you say, their sound is near perfect... The cello has a part to play in this quartet as has been mentioned , yet in the Jerusalem's performance it is not overpowering , it is just right imho.


If you want subtleness, then try Hagen.

I'm not convinced, by the way, that lots of nuance is the best approach, but it's one approach.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> *If you want subtleness, then try Hagen.*
> 
> I'm not convinced, by the way, that lots of nuance is the best approach, but it's one approach.


I'm sure that you guys are reading my notes. Lol. I agree that the Hagens are very subtle and beautiful. Do you think the Jerusalem is nuanced, Mandryka? What about the Engegard? Asking out of curiosity.  I have my own take on these but interested to hear what others think.


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## Mandryka

I’ve only listened to the first movement of the Jerusalem. My impression is that it is very much of the old romantic style of performance: seamless legato with long line phrasing, a single dominant melody voice at all times, unstressed dissonances, sweetly blended ensemble. They are very far from Hagen’s nuance.


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## sbmonty

Listening to the Orlando Quartet recording now. Really nice sound. I want to spend some time with all 3 Prussian quartets this coming week. The others I’ve enjoyed so far are the Alban Berg and the Talich. 

Thank you SearsPoncho for a really touching post. I’d love to hear the rest of that list if ever you wish to share. I had a teacher that meant a lot to me as a teen boy. I’ve tried to track him down to thank him for having such an amazing impact on my life. Forever grateful. A skillful, committed teacher is a social treasure. And no, I’m not a teacher now. But I sure appreciate their significance.


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## Carmina Banana

Mandryka,
I just saw your comments about the Jerusalem after writing the following reactions to recordings. I found it interesting because I had similar complaints about a different group (the Melos Quartet). When I heard the Jerusalem recording, I didn’t think romantic, but I listened to to some of it again. Yes, you are right that they connect phrases in a way that could be seen as romantic—I love the way they play those for two measures like melting butter—but there is also a lightness of articulation that palliates that. If it is romantic, it is light romantic (romantic lite?). As for voicing to the melody, yes, I agree again. But I think that gives it the lightness and transparency that is so attractive to me. I’m guessing this might not be my all time favorite, but I like it and really want to hear it multiple times. 
I am looking forward to the Hagen recording. That will definitely be next on the turntable (figurative).
Here are some reactions to recent listening:
The Melos quartet plays in what I consider a more romantic style. Right off the bat, I get the feeling they are going for the big phrases and long lines. That is something I have noticed about musicians of a certain generation—they always play the biggest phrase possible and their teaching reflects that. At times, this is a great approach, but I don’t think it should be a truism applied to all music. 
The other thing I am not wild about here is articulation. They seem to be afraid of any space between notes. The descending pattern in the opening theme—two sixteenth notes followed by an eight rest—is a good example. The first violinist elongates the last note to keep the legato going. If taken too literally, it can sound like bird chips, but In my opinion this heavy handed approach takes the charm out of this typical Mozartism. Likewise, many staccatos are ignored throughout the quartet.
The Melos play with a forward momentum, especially in the first movement. This is often a good strategy, but I don’t like it in this piece.

What I do like is the relaxed tempos in the Orlando Quartet’s recording. The menuetto might verge on too slow for my taste, but I rarely hear this with the clear metric emphasis it deserves. In other words, the off beats should generally get out of the way so we have a dance-like feel. Some groups, in their obsessive need for legato and continuing the line, ignore the dance, but not so with the Orlandos. 
In general, I don’t think this is the best or most expressive performance, but the tempos are very important to my enjoyment of this music. At this point, I have to bring up my gripe with Shakespeare performances because it seems like a close parallel. Either because of our lack of attention or our need for hot emotions and non-stop action, most of the Shakespeare that I have seen in the last ten years is people yelling and running around and doing whatever they can to prevent us from hearing the actual words. 
The same goes for a lot of classical music, especially Mozart. I really want to hear those triplet eighth notes in the first movement. I want to delight in how they sound against the straight eighth notes. The same for countless other niceties. I don’t care how virtuosic you are as musicians. The notes are so perfect that every time you gloss over one, you are robbing me of pleasure.


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## Chilham

Mandryka said:


> ... old romantic style of performance: seamless legato with long line phrasing, a single dominant melody voice at all times, unstressed dissonances, sweetly blended ensemble...


I love this thread!

I listened to the Doric SQ. I really enjoyed it. :lol:


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## Mandryka

Carmina Banana said:


> Mandryka,
> I just saw your comments about the Jerusalem after writing the following reactions to recordings. I found it interesting because I had similar complaints about a different group (the Melos Quartet). .


No complaints from me, I just want to get clear about what's going on, without judging or (heaven forfend) ranking.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> What about the Engegard? .


Playful

Smsmsmsmsmsmsm


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## Merl

I've listened to the Salomon twice in the last few days and whilst I don't usually mind their recordings I really do not like their sound here. It's very thin and wirey! Their reading also seems rather flat and not particularly agile. Why the Penguin Guide rated it so highly I don't know. Anyone else feel the same about this particular recording?


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I've listened to the Salomon twice in the last few days and whilst I don't usually mind their recordings I really do not like their sound here. It's very thin and wirey! Their reading also seems rather flat and not particularly agile. Why the Penguin Guide rated it so highly I don't know. Anyone else feel the same about this particular recording?


What you say seems correct, it is flat, the sound is not beautiful. Nevertheless I think there's something special about it - each phrase is enunciated tersely and abruptly, and that gives the thing a sense of tough, powerful urgency. Granitic. I like it very much.


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## SearsPoncho

Hey, Gramophone, Penguin (if they still exist...not!), and any other publications that publish comparative reviews! Are you reading this? This is how you do comparative reviews. We expect more from professional magazines and books written by compensated "experts," and just stating one likes a recording and throwing about general terms which give very little information about a recorded performance does not help the consumer or music-lover. I might write such reviews because I have a day job and am not a compensated reviewer that spends all day, every day listening to recordings for years or decades. The last two pages of this thread not only give recommendations and criticisms, but explain why and how conclusions were reached. 

I'm enjoying the quartet, as well as the analysis of various recordings by our extremely capable members. I'm a Mozart maniac. This is mature Mozart. It's great. Nevertheless, I've never quite found his string quartets as endearing as his other chamber works. I'm not sure why. Was he trying too hard to meet Haydn's standard in the genre, causing him to compose slightly out of character, with perhaps uncharacteristically busy counterpoint. I still love it, but I must admit that I usually reach for other subgenres of Mozart's priceless chamber music oevre before his string quartets.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> What you say seems correct, it is flat, the sound is not beautiful. Nevertheless I think there's something special about it - each phrase is enunciated tersely and abruptly, and that gives the thing a sense of tough, powerful urgency. Granitic. I like it very much.


I picked up a couple of the Salomon Mozart discs in a joblot I got about 2 months ago but I hadn't listened to them. I'm familiar with many of the Salomon Haydn recordings but hadn't had the chance to listen to the Mozart. It's strange because the other disc I got sounds much better but I'm really not enamoured with this particular one. There's a bunch of these K589 recordings I keep coming back to and I'll round them up in a bit. I've just gotta listen through one that I'm struggling to place (I like it but I'm not sure how much). It's one of those recordings that I refer to as a 'grower' cos it's going up in my estimation every time I listen to it. There's a plethora of different styles of playing in these recordings and I find that I can tolerate a whole range of styles (wide vibrato, sans vibrato, blended sonorities, nuanced, etc). With some quartets by other composers I find some of these qualities more polarising. But hey, it takes all sorts. 

Incidentally, I'm a big lover of the 1st and 3rd movements in this quartet. That trio in the minuet is really interesting and getting that tricky movement just right is not easy.


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## Carmina Banana

SearsPoncho,
I somehow missed your earlier post about your childhood teacher. I'm so glad I went back and read it. It was very touching. 
It is hard to explain why Mozart is so life-affirming and fulfilling to listen to. I just wrote a long paragraph on that topic and deleted it. I'll try again later. Suffice it to say: I am right there with you.

Mandryka and Merl, 
You have really got me interested in the Salomon Quartet. I'll have to search it out.

I finally got around to listening to the Hagen quartet performance. I enjoyed it very much—a beautiful sensitive performance. I also like the stereo separation. On my headphones it was like I was in the sitting in the middle of the group. I had some issues with rhythmic distortions. For example, every time they play that triplet passage in the first movement, it starts with a lengthening of the first note. It is very consistent and all members do it. I don’t see the need for it. With the exception of a few things like that--gorgeous!


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## Burbage

_Friday, is it?_

Well, here we are, back at Mozart again. Though, to be fair to my long-suffering audience, that was nineteen months ago, and though I've written a fair bit about other over-represented Austrians, and even of Austrian Aquarians (Berg and Schubert), I was too timid, absent or lazy to bother writing anything the last time the great prodigy's horse-haired head popped up on this meritorious thread.

Mozart, despite being as allegedly ubiquitous as vanilla, the voluptuous odour of which now unites every tootsy perfumier and bus-station coffee-stand, and seems to have usurped the scent of burning tobacco, isn't quite as everywhere as he seems. Though he's still the go-to composer of television producers and call-centre scriptwriters, the creative economy seems to limit its imagination to a hand-me-down divertimento and an overture, leaving a whole Mozartian lifetime, bar a couple of iffy mornings, largely undiscovered. A lifetime in which a careful fossicker, willing to burrow through the looser sediments of operas, symphonies, sonatas and concertos will eventually hit the paydirt of the twenty-three quartets.

Those twenty-three are broadly divided into the ten, later, "famous" ones, and those that aren't so often played, on grounds of youth, naivity, simplicity and/or brevity. Happily, the 22nd is one of the later ones, also known as K589, partly for reasons of specificity and partly because it acts as a divide between "kenner" and "liebhaber", as they say in German or, as we say in English, "bore" and "mooncalf". But whichever camp we're in, our hearing will be affected by ourselves. I was thinking of that as I wondered, for the umptieth time, whether to invest in the Jerusalem Quartet's disk (or, at least, a non-transferrable personal licence to attempt to non-commercially enjoy the recording in the specific format provided, should technology allow it, for as long as I should live), as the 4th is a guilty pleasure, I think the Hunt the best of the "Haydn" bunch, and the 22nd reminds me of a surreal and weary trudge I made through a disease-silenced city to hear the Doric Quartet play to a sparse audience clustered gingerly round the bandstand in Battersea Park.

That aside, Mozart had by now run from the tentatively baroque through modish divertisements and out via Sturm und Drang into the romantic foothills of expressive classicism, largely by making music that sounded as if it might mean something, thus opening the gates for musicologists to joyfully frolic in fields of purple prose, and leaving later composers to write meaningful things that might sound like music. On balance, it's a very good quartet that bears plenty of repeated listening. Though, as I've discovered this week, perhaps not too plenty, as it has plenty of repeats in it already. I've also discovered that I don't think I'm a very good listener, as I listened closely to four different performances, just to see what sort of kick Merl gets out of life, while reading along with the score, and still don't reckon I could tell them apart in a blind test. My overall impression is that, on the whole (and with exceptions) they played it straight and square (Klenke), earnestly (Emerson), delicately (Talich) or like a pantomime dame (Doric), but I'm really not sure. What I am sure of is that, after listening to them all twice, I realised I hadn't noticed that the Dorics manage to stretch the allegro to ten whole minutes, against everyone else's six-and-a-bit. Did they repeat a repeat? Did they misread 'allegro'? I have literally no idea, and no great desire to find out, as I like them all well enough.

Either way, I doubt that Mozart was as prescriptive as the written notes, or publishers, editors and theoreticians, would like. He lived, after all, in an age where improvisation was a real thing, and whole chunks of concertos could be left to the performer to make up on the spot, for as long as the audience stayed quiet, whereas nowadays the 'aleatory' form of spontaneity comes with fourteen pages of closely-typed instruction and a manual of practical botany. So I don't mind some liberties being taken (I'm also fond of Arrau, whose use of rubato, according to some, could leave space enough for dinner), and I quite enjoyed some of the swooning japeries and melodramatic pregnancies that seem to irritate others. Instead, my mind turned itself to mosaics.

Mosaics seem to exist in three forms. There are broadly figurative ones, like the Roman mosaics that illustrate gods, beasts of the sea and desirable, if absent, objects. And there are abstract mosaics, like the Persians made, that illustrate geometric progressions and symmetries, often through stylised representations of flowering plants. And there textual ones, that might prettify a line of scripture or the name above a greengrocer's shop. These are broad tendencies, though, not hard-and-fast rules, and you'll find elements of each in the mosaics of any mosaic-building culture, it's just the proportions that differ.

I think the same is true of music, with the classical style tending to the Persian, and the romantics, as the name implies, a touch more Roman. And, whether we're a bore, obsessed with the alignment of each and every tiny tile, or an awestruck mooncalf amazed that they managed to stick them to the wall, our enjoyment reflects as much of ourselves as it does the artist, regardless of the impact of their second-cousin's new kitchen on their lives. This is the Conspiracy of the Audience, without which music would just be ink on paper, known only to cotton-gloved curators. Each of us will find something different in it, that reflects an aspect of our lives, whether it's a sunny evening in Battersea or a rainy afternoon spinning shellac in a Holloway basement, and that's no fault of the artists, players or composers. They provide a space in which we can find ourselves and explore the resonances that bind us, however loosely, together. In troubled times, that's not a bad thing to do, and Mozart, whatever our circumstances, lets us do that spectacularly well.


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## Malx

Confession time - unable to read music, as I am, there are times when I wonder if I even know how to listen to music - am I missing something that seems to be obvious to others?

That thought pops into my head largely because there are many times I'm not sure if I really 'get' Mozart - I find most of his 'better' works to be, cute, clever, admirable even but I very often feel that something special that catches my attention just isn't there. I appreciate that is a generalisation but I found it underlined again with this quartet - there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it maybe superbly written and well put together but as soon as I've heard it, its gone from my memory.

Anyway, I have listened to the two recordings I have of the piece on disc; the Chilingarians and the Alban Berg's (Teldec) - my preference was with the AB's largely because they seemed, or the recording, had a bit more oompf to it.
I guess my problem could be with the recordings I have and maybe there is one out there that is revelatory that I should seek out. I suspect I'm out on a limb here, wide of the consensus, but as is usual I have enjoyed a selection that has made me, at least try to, listen anew to the music - that is to the eternal credit of this thread and its participants.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> Confession time - unable to read music, as I am, there are times when I wonder if I even know how to listen to music - am I missing something that seems to be obvious to others?
> 
> That thought pops into my head largely because there are many times I'm not sure if I really 'get' Mozart - I find most of his 'better' works to be, cute, clever, admirable even but I very often feel that something special that catches my attention just isn't there. I appreciate that is a generalisation but I found it underlined again with this quartet - there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and it maybe superbly written and well put together but as soon as I've heard it, its gone from my memory.
> 
> Anyway, I have listened to the two recordings I have of the piece on disc; the Chilingarians and the Alban Berg's (Teldec) - my preference was with the AB's largely because they seemed, or the recording, had a bit more oompf to it.
> I guess my problem could be with the recordings I have and maybe there is one out there that is revelatory that I should seek out. I suspect I'm out on a limb here, wide of the consensus, but as is usual I have enjoyed a selection that has made me, at least
> try to, listen anew to the music - that is to the eternal credit of this thread and its participants.


Well you can't be expected to like everybody!


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## Merl

Right, I've thrown a list together in my blog for Mozart 22. You don't have to look but, if you do, feel free to disagree. I still have one to listen to again as I can't make up my mind and there's also this strange, flat Salomon recording, which is actually growing on me (I played it again, before). For now it's nestled outside my recommended but who knows. I wasn't mad on the Modigliani Schumann initially but now they're a firm fave.









Anyhoo, my blog link is below. Apologies for any glaring spelling mistakes (I was picking up a takeaway and had only a few minutes). You'll probably all disagree with me but hey ho.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3589-mozart-string-quartet-22-a.html


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## Mandryka

But you MUST listen to the Tokyo LP I sent you.


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## Kreisler jr

I think ABQ/Teldec is quite good (and it's a decade or so older than the EMI, so I am not sure if there is a confusion in the blog list) and doubt that another interpretation, such as the more "micro-managed" Hagen would change the general impression of the piece much.
Although I like the first movement quite a bit, to me it seems movements 2 and 3 seem comparably more remarkable (the finale seems admittedly a bit routine). The menuet is a bit crazy, especially the trio, it could be almost a scene from a comic opera.
I wonder if this movement is often played a bit to fast or if it's also for virtuoso display, here more of the first violin than 'cello. The 2nd movement is for me maybe the most beautiful slow movement in all of Mozart's quartets; there might be some "deeper" or more dramatic ones in the Haydn set but none more beautiful, this also reminds me a bit of an opera aria (with cello and violin sharing the solo honors).


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> I think ABQ/Teldec is quite good (and it's a decade or so older than the EMI, so I am not sure if there is a confusion in the blog list)....


Yes, there was a problem. Thanks Mandryka for putting me right on that one. I meant later not earlier. I've corrected it now and put in the proper release dates.


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## Carmina Banana

In a way, talking about Mozart’s music is like talking about the wheel. Someone had a great idea. It didn’t take a lot of engineering background. It was an obvious solution to a simple problem, but it is perfect and elegant and though we can tinker and improve and stylize, we can never reinvent the wheel. But how do you describe it? It's round. 
I remember participating in some Mozart opera rehearsals and thinking, where is the genius? He is just taking words and setting them in a direct, obvious, intuitive way. It is the perfect notes for the words. Oh, that is where the genius comes in. 

Here are some favorite moments from this quartet:
In the first movement, when the development is enmeshed in serious business and suddenly, when no one is looking, Mozart slips in the opening motive. 
In the second movement, when the theme comes back and we get to wallow in it once again!
In the third movement, when that slightly clunky but adorable trio appears.
In the Finale, when the theme appears in Db major. Ah!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've enjoyed spending some time with this typically enchanting, crystalline music this week. I have such an odd relationship with Mozart. Sometimes I find his music dull and predictable, other times I've shed tears of ecstasy over its marvel. A lot of it depends on the mood I'm in, but I think that Mozart is the ultimate challenge to hopeless over-analyzers like yours truly who always want to pick apart every detail in intellectual fashion. Mozart testifies to the power of unadorned, straightforward communication; of placing bricks next to each other in impossibly simple, linear fashion but managing to craft an overwhelmingly beautiful edifice from the process. When I attended a concert of his Clarinet Quintet a few months ago (which I detailed in this thread), I had rarely had such a visceral reaction to music before. It simply pierced my heart. And this proved to me that Mozart (well, music in general, but particularly Mozart) really relies on the medium of direct communication because that is what his music is all about-it's the equivalent of a perfectly reasoned public speech, seasoned with just enough rhetorical techniques to add variety but which vastly lets the sheer power of the words and their organization get the message across. I really resonate with this thought, CB:



Carmina Banana said:


> I remember participating in some Mozart opera rehearsals and thinking, where is the genius? He is just taking words and setting them in a direct, obvious, intuitive way. It is the perfect notes for the words. Oh, that is where the genius comes in.


Same here, and I think the finale of this quartet in particular represents this. To remove but one note would be to topple the whole structure. The development section is full of marvelous chromaticism which magically disrupts the mercurial, quicksilver progress of the piece. The first two movements are also easy to love, but I have a tough time with the minuet; Mozart is rarely so long-winded and recycles his material in verbatim fashion like that. Of the three performances I heard, I enjoyed the agility and charm of the Jerusalem and didn't quite warm to the more understated approach of the Hagens, but the big surprise was the Emerson. I decided to give them another shot after frequently expressing my criticism for their style, and I think their way of looking at pieces-hard-nosed, no-nonsense, and muscular-pays dividends here. Like Mozart's music itself, they convey the beauty of the work with tight, ordered, perfectly disciplined playing and point up all the sharp, spiky edges while integrating the lyrical portions perfectly. Golden tone, wonderful interpretation. Really great stuff that has me eager to visit and revisit some more of their recordings to see if my perceptions have changed.


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## StevehamNY

Before this week, I think I've found myself sharing Malx's experience of enjoying Mozart's music as I'm listening to it, but not being able to remember a note after it's done. This week... Well, let's just say that the simple and pure joy in the music is landing with me in a way it hasn't before. I think it's exactly what I needed this week (I dare say I'm probably not alone) and so once again I'm just grateful to have been here to receive such a gift.

A quick survey of the several albums that include this piece reveals the usual assortment of group poses on the covers, along with several renditions of powdered-wigged men convening in formal drawing rooms. Of the covers that stand out for one reason or another, I'm honestly trying to decide if this one is inspired or just recycled Yellow Submarine artwork from the wrong decade:









(I guess it works because it sticks in my mind!)

I'm also wondering why you would choose a dragonfly, which if you know your entomology are 300-million-year-old exquisitely designed radar-equipped murder machines, to represent Mozart's music:









But mostly I'm wondering, if the one thing every quartet member carries around is a bow, why we don't see a lot more covers like this one:









("All right, for this shot just grab your bows and go crazy!")

But on this lighter note, after a week of joyful music, I realize that it's my turn next week. (Or "my shout" as I've heard it called at a few British pubs.) I've been trying to decide all week how to handle it this time, and just tonight I think I've finally settled on an answer. So please stand by for a rather long Sunday post to start it off.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> ..... But on this lighter note, after a week of joyful music, I realize that it's my turn next week. (Or "my shout" as I've heard it called at a few British pubs.) I've been trying to decide all week how to handle it this time, and just tonight I think I've finally settled on an answer. So please stand by for a rather long Sunday post to start it off.


Looking forward to seeing what you pick. Steve.

I agree and understand somewhat with what some people have said about their relationship with Mozart's music. I tend to play string quartets by other composers more often than his or I used to! About 2 years ago I was sorting through my CDs and I realised just how many Mozart CDs I actually have and I made a conscious decision that, from that day, I'd play more of my Mozart CDs, and I have done. The Prussian quartets aren't my favourite of his quartets but they are really interesting, structurally and do hold your attention well. I must have known that someone would pick Mozart soon, as I listened to the Emerson recordings of the Prussians (I bought that Sony disc for a ridiculous £2 on Ebay only last year) only a fortnight ago. As ACB will attest its a superb recording (the others are terrific too). As I said in my blog post, there are so many different styles here and I can live with all of them. I find it fascinating listening to the differences in interpretation and I understand why the Hagen recording might polarise opinions. I must admit that the three recordings here I struggled with most were the Hagen, Klenke and Doric ones. What I found with the Hagen account is not so much micromanagement but an emphasis on bringing out the inner detail in a more relaxed reading. It sort of took me aback at first as even though I do have the Hagen set I'd rarely played the Prussians from it and not focused as hard previously. I expected a much more volatile recording, tbh, so their lighter way surprised me, however, I felt it worked but others may not hear the attraction. The Klenke recording went from my also-ran pile to recommended because of their control of dynamics, which is way more subtle than the Dorics. That Doric account will be polarising (I expect Hurwitz will hate it). We know Doric performances can be highly nuanced (not always though). Here it's that opening movement that really stands out but I think it works this time. It doesn't always! I stand by my top choices. That Mosaiques recording I find fresh and exciting. Their use of rubato is particularly effective, giving it a flowing, organic feel. So, whilst others are well recommended here (Klenke, Italiano, etc) they just don't have the rhythmic flexibility of the Mosaiques. The Alexander recording came as a surprise to me as I didn't know their Mozart recordings on Foghorn. I'm more than aware of their terrific traversal of Beethoven's op18s on the same label and many of their other recordings and I did find that those that excelled in most of Beethoven's op.18s had a natural feel for Mozart too (Jerusalem, Alexander, Leipziger, ABQ, etc). The Alexanders are quite bold and forthright but, like the Emersons, this approach works particularly well here, yet they can still smile too.


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> Well you can't be expected to like everybody!


Very true Mandryka - but I do like to try!


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## Allegro Con Brio

Forgot to mention too-*StevehamNY* is up for next week's pick.


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## Enthusiast

I guess I am not among those who feel that very late Mozart compares poorly with other greats. To me this quartet is every bit as great as those by Beethoven and perhaps, because it is harder to pin down what it _is _about Mozart, Mozart is the more wonderful! Why this is so (for me) is hard to say. I can say there is a profundity to the utterance that belies its apparent simplicity. It could easily be dull but instead it is invariably elevated.

I have four recordings of this piece. I think I rate the ABQ (Teldec) most highly because the music sounds more particularly sublime than it does in the hands of the other quartets I have recordings of. But the lush beauty - never exaggerated and always blended with a slightly hard edge - of the Quartetto Italiano recording is also hard to resist. Next to these two I find the Armida's recording a bit prosaic. But the Jerusalem Quartet's reading is another that I enjoy a lot. It is perhaps more expressive and has a greater sense of direction (almost a narrative). Their Menuetto is by far my favourite of the four.

I've enjoyed this listening so much that I may perhaps see if I can find any other recordings to listen to.


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## Kreisler jr

I have only three recordings and liked all of them. My favorite might also be the Alban Berg (1970s) because of beautiful sound and "natural" interpretation, letting the cello melodies in the first two movements really shine and are robust and contrastful in the uncommonly long menuet (I might prefer the leaner and fleeter interpretations of the two others in the finale). 
The Petersen is well-balanced and straightforward, also very good but not as characterful. The Hagen is detail-oriented, they take great care not to let the cello and first violin dominate in the first two movements and give a more hushed than radiant performance of the larghetto. 
It's a great piece that often seems to be a bit overlooked (like K 499). In German speaking countries K 575 has a nickname (Veilchen/violet because a song alluded to in the slow movement), and the last quartet also has a bit of a special position. (Maybe it's accidental but in the LP age the Weller and Küchl Quartet had records of 575+590, and the Diapason historical Mozart chamber recordings box also neglected to include K 589 and 499).
There are some similarities with the clarinet quintet; in both works there the first two movements are rather melody-dominated but such highlighting of a solo is effortlessly integrated into the ensemble. and both have stury, very elaborate menuets (the finales are very different, though).


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## Kjetil Heggelund

This week I only listened to Mosaïque and Leipziger. I've heard it many times before and have lately felt that the Prussians have been a bit put down. Don't understand people who pass judgement so easily on someone like Mozart...He is like the epitome of wienerclassisism and the soundtrack of my life. Boo! Yeah for KV 589!


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## StevehamNY

Moderator note: StevehamNY's original post featured a lengthy introduction that included too much (music-related) politics to be allowed in this thread. We decided to copy the complete post to a relevant thread in the "Politics and Religion in Classical Music" (link). In that way, those interested can still read the complete post, while we keep this thread free of politics, in line with the Talk Classical Forum Rules, Guidelines & Terms of Service. 

And so, finally, here's the quartet I had scheduled for this turn:

*Nikolai Myaskovsky, Quartet No. 13 in A minor, Op. 86*






Myaskovsky (sometimes spelled Miaskovsky) would come to be known as the "Conscience of Russian Music." Even though his music would remain largely true to the ideals of Romanticism, he was nevertheless persecuted in the Soviet system, finding himself on the wrong side of the Zhdanov decree alongside his younger classmate Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and other composers guilty of so-called "decadent formulism."

And regarding the present state of affairs, it's worth pointing out that Myaskovsky knew well the horrors of war. He was wounded and shell-shocked on the Austrian front during World War I, and this experience affected him deeply for the rest of his life.

As much as I enjoy Myaskovsky's quartets, it has always amazed me that this Number 13 (his last) is the only one with a list of recordings that goes further than just the Taneyev Quartet, who've done them all. If you have the Pacificas' excellent "Soviet Experience" set, you'll recognize it as the last quartet on Disk 1. The Borodins have also recorded this quartet (see the video above), as well as the Quatuor Renoir, the Kopelman Quartet, the Gosteleradio Quartet, and apparently the Beethoven Quartet on an old LP that never made it to CD.

I can say more, but I'll save it for further posts this week. And you're probably as worn out from reading this post as I am from writing it. So for now I'll just say thank you for indulging me on this one, and I hope you enjoy this quartet.


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## Philidor

Enthusiast said:


> [ ... ] I have four recordings of this piece. I think I rate the ABQ (Teldec) most highly because the music sounds more particularly sublime than it does in the hands of the other quartets I have recordings of. But the lush beauty - never exaggerated and always blended with a slightly hard edge - of the Quartetto Italiano recording is also hard to resist. [ ... ]





Kreisler jr said:


> I have only three recordings and liked all of them. My favorite might also be the Alban Berg (1970s) because of beautiful sound and "natural" interpretation, letting the cello melodies in the first two movements really shine and are robust and contrastful in the uncommonly long menuet (I might prefer the leaner and fleeter interpretations of the two others in the finale). [ ... ]


Let me add another stanza to these hymns of praise for ABQ and Quartetto Italiano. Besides, I listened to Amadeus (1953 and DG), Pro Arte feat. Rudolf Kolisch, Chilingirian and Talich. One week is too short ... Looking forward to listening to ABQ II, Hagen, Emerson, Mosaiques, Klenke and Jerusalem ... Miakowsky could be helpful in healing the lack of time, maybe there are not so many recordings ...  (I found Taneyev Qt and Borodin Qt)


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## Merl

Great choice Steve. Like both yourself and Art Rock., I am a firm fan of this quartet and own a few versions of this one (Pacifica, Taneyev on cd, Kopelman, Renoir on the HD). I was aware of the other recordings except the Gosteleradio Quartet, which is totally unknown to me (thanks Art Rock) so I'll see if I can track that one down to hear. I have almost picked this quartet twice, but chose another at the last minute, and view this quartet in the same light as both of Prokofiev's wonderful quartets. If you aren't familiar with it then fill yer boots. I'm sure you'll love it.


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## Art Rock

Merl said:


> ... Like both yourself and Art Rock..... (thanks Art Rock) ....


To be clear: these are all Steve's statements (not that I disagree with them, certainly not). I think the "Last edited by Art Rock" confused you.


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## HerbertNorman

Good choice Steve! I look forward to listening to some Myaskovsky chamber music...
I own a recording by the Taneyev Quartet , yet there's a few others to explore


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## sbmonty

Nice choice. Listening to the Pacifica Quartet right now.


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## haziz

Listening to the Kopelman Quartet recording as I type this.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I've never delved too deeply into Myaskovsky, listening to a few symphonies, a few of his SQ's (this one included, played by the Tanayevs) and the two cello sonatas. After those two last works, I remember this being my favourite work of his (the symphonies didn't do much for me). Listening to the Pacifica Quartet right now.


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## StevehamNY

I should have thought of putting my sidebar in a better place and linking to it. So thank you, Art Rock, for handling it so quickly and thoughtfully.

On the piece itself, there's a nice description on the earsense site, with this breakdown of its unusual development:

The lovely cello melody of opening movement, *Moderato*, in many ways sets the tone for the entire piece. There is passion and yet a valedictory mood of leave taking. It is very Russian in its romanticism. The second subject is a jaunty, angular dance-like tune which brightens the heavy mood of the opening. A third more reflective theme follows. The second movement, *Presto fantastico*, is a kind of disjointed scherzo in three parts. In the first section, the melody swirls about to endlessly varying rhythmical combinations. This is followed an episode in which the violin and then the cello launch into a jerky melody over an insistent 8th note accompaniment in the other voices. This is followed by a mysterious, delicate interlude. Next comes a slower movement, *Andante con moto*, which is in the form of an updated, simple romance, quiet and peaceful. From the opening measures of the finale, *Molto vivo, energico*, the main theme, which is dominated by its resolute and impulsive rhythm, bursts forth. Rather than a typical development, Myaskovsky forces this theme to alternative with a more mellow and lyrical section. With each repeat, they are slowly developed.​


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## Malx

I have the Pacifica recording so will give that some attention during the week - I can't honestly recall the piece at all so I'll be treating this as a new to me work.


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## Malx

After first listen through of the Pacificas' recording I was impressed. Loads of different influences at play but one that struck me briefly during the third movement was a passing resemblence to Wagner's Siegfried Idyll - it was fleeting but that's what I thought I heard.

Edit - I've now streamed the Taneyev Quartet recording on Qobuz, a bit earthier overall and I hear no resemblence in the third movement to Wagner's SI, perhaps my ears need cleansing!

Edit 2 - I've tried both the Kopelman and Borodin Quartet recordings nowvia Qobuz one excellent one not so much.

More listening to be done to this disc and other performances available on streaming platforms.


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## Carmina Banana

Malx said:


> After first listen through of the Pacificas' recording I was impressed. Loads of different influences at play but one that struck me briefly during the third movement was a passing resemblence to Wagner's Siegfried Idyll - it was fleeting but that's what I thought I heard.
> 
> Edit - I've now streamed the Taneyev Quartet recording on Qobuz, a bit earthier overall and I hear no resemblence in the third movement to Wagner's SI, perhaps my ears need cleansing!
> 
> Edit 2 - I've tried both the Kopelman and Borodin Quartet recordings nowvia Qobuz one excellent one not so much.
> 
> More listening to be done to this disc and other performances available on streaming platforms.


I didn't notice the resemblance, but I listened back and could sense it every so slightly.

This movement is striking and very beautiful. I love the melting harmonies that he uses for the main theme. At times it has a similar spiritual vibe to Hovhannes. Each time it comes back it is more beautiful. The middle section, con sordino, is breathtaking and then the recap is also very moving (most recent listen is the Taneyev). And then the little reminder at the end is very optimistic and wonderful!


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## StevehamNY

I touched on this briefly in my first note, but I will never for the life of me understand why virtually none of Myaskovsky's other string quartets have gotten _any_ recording time at all. Thank God for this complete set from the Taneyev Quartet (if they did nothing else, I'd love them for this alone):









There's a decent piece on Classical.net that attempts to explain the lack of attention paid to Myaskovsky's work. The factors cited include the sheer number of compositions to sift through (making it more difficult to pan for gold, although I think this is less an issue in the quartets as in the voluminous symphonies), and the fact that, because Myaskovsky died in 1950 with no family, there was nobody left to advocate for his music when Stalin finally died three years later. (This despite the irony that he won the Stalin prize six times, the last prize coming posthumously.)

No matter the reasons, I'll never understand why we have a hundred Shostakovich sets (as much as I love that music and understand what sets it apart!) and one Myaskovsky. Not to mention just one set of Taneyev's quartets, one of Shebalin's, one of Gliere's (and not even a complete set at that). I'll stop now, you get the idea!

EDIT: Duh, my bad, the Carpe Diem Quartet also recorded the complete Taneyev set on Naxos.


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## Malx

Picture the scene:
Leader of a reasonably well known String Quartet sitting in the office of 'Classical Recordings and Publications' having a conversation with the CEO and Marketing Director - CEO asks "you want to record a cycle of 13 quartets by Mya' Mia who?" then turns to his Marketing guy and says calculate the net profitablity of such a venture.
Whilst being hustled out of the door the leader of the quartet asks do you have the phone number of Hyperion or Chandos - I think I've had enough of C.R.A.P. for one day.

I do think the market is limited for such cycles but who knows nothing is impossible, there are a decent number of recordings of the thirteenth quartet but I haven't seen so many of the others.
Sadly these days for so many money is the main and sometimes only driver.

Back to the quartet I have now listened to five recordings and I am thoroughly enjoying the work - some recordings I'm enjoying more than others but isn't that always the case.


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## Carmina Banana

I’m sure we have danced around this topic a few times on this thread; why are some composers celebrated so much more than others? A corollary might be, why are composers celebrated at some times more than others? 
If you are an art collector, I guess knowing which artist is about to make it big (or have a resurgence) could make you rich. Money, politics, luck; I’m sure they all play a part in whether an artist or composer is a household name or just footnote in a music history book.
Traditionally, I think conductors and music directors who program music had a lot to say about who was the cat’s meow and who wasn’t. Especially in the 20th century, when audiences were much more comfortable with the previous century’s music, they relied on the likes of Leonard Bernstein to say which composers were OK. Shostakovich, though dissonant and scary, is a legitimate composer, they might say. You can buy his records and put them on your shelf and your bougie friends will know that you know what is truly good. 
Interesting how those composers who are on the Mount Rushmore of musical greatness can sometimes come and go. There is a green room I used to frequent and on the walls were framed pictures of the undisputed greats of music: Bach, Beethoven and Meyerbeer. 
By the way, I have taken a detour and am currently enjoying Myaskovsky’s symphonies. I have the 24th playing right now. The second movement is a bubbling sea of emotion. Less angst than Shostakovich but less schmaltz than Rachmaninov.


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## Merl

I think Malx partly hit the nail on the head about the the reason for Myaskovsky's neglect. Some of it is about profitability. Shosty is the bigger name = more sales. Whether that is fair or not is down to your opinion but, as Steve said, thankfully the Taneyev have left us a really top quality cycle (if you haven't got it, it's worth the outlay). Of course that 40 year old set is starting to show its age so I'm sure at some point some enterprising quartet, on an indie label, might knock out a cycle but it will be OOP in no time even if it is top quality. The sad fact is Mr. M doesn't shift the units like Shosty and Co. Some will also argue that his work in the SQ medium is patchier too and I'd agree somewhat there. As I said, I've had the Taneyev cycle for many years but rarely play it. Theres a reason why there are many more recordings of the 13th quartet than the others - it's a better work, IMO. I'm certainly not knocking his other enjoyable quartets but that one has a special appeal to me and quite a lot of his other quartets are much darker and often longer than this one. Btw, I've blogged my opinions of the various recordings I've heard. It's linked in my blogged quartets page.


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## Philidor

Malx said:


> [ ... ]
> Sadly these days for so many money is the main and sometimes only driver.
> [ ... ]


Yes. Money is maybe not the first driver, I can imagine that some responsible in a record company likes to work in a record company for intrinsic reasons.

However, if the record company doesn't earn money, it will not exist very long. And all your artistic objectives are gone.

Yes, I am singing the song of the record company.

We are the first ones to complain if some recording is less than perfect. No time for a 3rd or 4th take, 2nd rate equipment, 2nd rate sound engineers ...

Are we willing to pay 1st rate prices?

When I started buying CDs in 1988, a CD was at 32 to 33 DM, about 17 Euros.The price raised to 20 Euros soon (in 2000?), there it stayed.

If I look for the price change in wine (my other passion), I am paying more than double the 1990's price today for similar quality from the same winemaker. That's it.

It means, a CD should be at 40 Euros. And I didn't say a word about streaming.

So I fully understand if some record company CEO is asking for the business outcome of the project. He is right, if he feels responsible for the future of his employees.


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## Kreisler jr

Malx said:


> Picture the scene:
> Leader of a reasonably well known String Quartet sitting in the office of 'Classical Recordings and Publications' having a conversation with the CEO and Marketing Director - CEO asks "you want to record a cycle of 13 quartets by Mya' Mia who?" then turns to his Marketing guy and says calculate the net profitablity of such a venture.
> Whilst being hustled out of the door the leader of the quartet asks do you have the phone number of Hyperion or Chandos - I think I've had enough of C.R.A.P. for one day.


It might be that the window of opportunity for another cycle of Miaskowsky or Taneyev quartets has been closed for a while. But labels like BIS, Chandos, Hyperion, cpo, Naxos and others recorded IMO considerably more obscure or "hard sells" in the late 1990s and 2000s and even today than these two composers, so I am not really convinced that there was no chance for recordings of this music. It's also surprising because the Taneyev recordings weren't available for years after Melodiya was in tatters.

I listened once and liked the work quite a bit although I was stunned to learn that it had been composed in the late 1940s. It does sound more like 1900 than 1950, and maybe this is another reason for comparable neglect.


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## Kreisler jr

Philidor said:


> It means, a CD should be at 40 Euros. And I didn't say a word about streaming.


Of course, it shouldn't. If you look at the prices of digital recording equipment (or other electronics) compared to 1988, CDs should probably be at 40 cents.  Obviously, these factors are not the only ones determining prices.

But one should mention that the appearance of CDs was used for ca. 50% increase in prices (ca. 30+ instead of ca. 20 DM for full price discs, these high prices were also one reason why there were lower priced lines from the very beginning). The companies got into a feeding frenzy during the CD boom in the 1980s and early 1990s (they had been in a crisis in the 1970s already and the advent of the new medium saved their butts) without thinking ahead and were then caught with their pants down both by market saturation and the next steps in technology (burning, downloading, filesharing, streaming).


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## HerbertNorman

I am a big , big fan of Shostakovich ' String Quartets and as all of us on here I own many sets . Yet I agree with what has been posted on here , the lack of some composers' great chamber music on recording is blatant. It's all about selling and making money though... Shosty is a big name and Myaskovky a little less so , this is the main reason I am sure.

I really have enjoyed listening to this week's quartet! My set of the Myaskovsky SQs by the Taneyev is one I bought at a sale once . After listening to the Borodin Quartet yesterday , I have to say that I prefer the Taneyev recording tbh.
I don't claim to be the big connoisseur , neither am I the most trained ear among us ... but the Taneyev Q have got it right imho , like Steve has indicated in the thread. Tonight or tomorrow I think I will give the Kopelman Quartet a go... 
This is a reason why I pay for a streaming service ... I have too many CD boxes already ... I am happy to pay for a download or a streaming service, it's just the fact that too little is actually made by the artists themselves via the streaming... The Kopelman recording is maybe not one I would buy , but the streaming gives me the option to listen and compare.


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## Malx

Final listen of the week to the Miaskovsky quartet - I went back to my preferred Pacifica recording, yes the Taneyev is very good and in my usual non musical language a little earthier but I think the clean lines in the playing of the Pacifica in conjunction with the better sound quality just shades it for me. These two recordings seem to have a better feel for the piece than the others I tried - the Borodin and Renoir were solid enough if not inspired and the Kopelman was dull and badly recorded.
My thoughts virtually mirror Merl's assessments although our first choice differs.

As others have alluded to this quartet is not what may be expected from a mid twentieth century work but is the date of composition that important, if it sounds good in my simplistic world - it is good. 
So not earthshattering or indeed groundbreaking for its time but I have been delighted to get to know this quartet during the week and even more delighted that the recording I prefer I already have on the shelves.


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## Kreisler jr

I agree, it's not important when it was written but grouping Miaskovsky with Shostakovich is more than a little misleading because the style is more like Medtner, Rachmaninoff or other early 20th century late romantic composers.


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## SearsPoncho

I was prepared to be the lone dissenter on the quality of this week's quartet but, surprise, I like it. I really like it. (Spoken in Sally Field's Oscar voice)

It has two qualities which one would think would bode well for its popularity: it gets better with each passing bar and it gets better with each listen. The first recording I heard was the Borodin Quartet's live performance on Youtube. The sound quality on that one is variable, and much of the polyphony and counterpoint, which is where the magic really happens in this one, is not clearly heard. I didn't think the music was very good, but then I listened to the excellent recording by the Pacifica Quartet and I was sold. That's a bingo! I guess it was a little conservative for it's time. With the exception of a couple of mild 20th century modernisms, I would have guessed the date of composition was around 1880. A bit of Mendelssohn meets Tchaikovsky meets Borodin, with the aforementioned mild 20th century-isms thrown in. The Pacifica Quartet articulate each line of polyphony clearly, and it sounds like the composer really had a talent for writing inner voices. Overall, an enjoyable quartet. Thanks, Steve! 

As for the dearth of quartet recordings, I believe it's just a business decision. Most chamber ensembles are like rock bands in that they tour to support a cd. They play small halls, churches, art galleries, community centers, and even libraries. After the concerts they're frequently found in the lobby, selling the cds which contain the programs the audience just heard. They know first-hand what sells.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I will offer my comments on the Myaskovsky tomorrow. In the meantime, housekeeping: the venerable *Burbage* will get to choose next week. Current schedule:

Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


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## Burbage

_As it's Saturday, this must be late._

According to Carenza Hugh-Jones, who provided the liner-notes for the Borodin Quartet's recording, Myasokovsky is quoted as having said that he felt best able to express himself through the medium of symphonies. And he did so twenty-seven times. Which raises the question of why he bothered with string quartets at all.

The answer to that is obvious to those who correctly believe the string quartet to be the summit of all human achievement, which I'm sure we all do. Myaskovsky, however, was not so enlightened and felt able to openly and insouciantly express his darkly heretical opinions in favour of the orchestra. Nevertheless, there's some truth in the old adage that where all sense fails, money will answer, and Myaskovsky did have a chamber-music contract with a publisher. An additional factor in his favour is that nearly all the chamber music he composed was for the string quartet, which suggests that his delusions masked, rather than obliterated, the remnants of a salvageable soul.

Furthermore, although there's no evidence for this at all, it's possible that his preference for the rasping, hooting, thumping chaos of the symphony was more politically than artistically motivated. In revolutionary Russia, string quartets became dangerous things to write, tending to the 'abstract' as they do, and thus beyond the easy appreciation of the humble peasantry who could be expected only to understand music delivered by a crowd of eighty musicians, all dressed for a nineteenth-century middle-class dinner, equipped with a surfeit of specialist equipment and commanded by an autocrat with a stick in a gilded hall.

That said, Myaskovsky's quartets, though often adventurous, were deemed harmless enough, and one of them (the 9th) managed to win a Stalin Prize in Myaskovsky's lifetime. As did this, 13th, quartet, albeit somewhat later. Which comes as a slight surprise because Myaskovsky found himself in trouble all the same. Not for his interesting, occasionally dissonant, music, but for having been Muradeli's teacher, and it was Muradeli that wrote the well-intentioned opera "The Great Friendship" that offended Stalin so much and sparked all the Zhdanov nonsense a couple of years before.

As it happens, the offence was more plot-driven than musical, which makes a lot more sense. Any operatic plot that features infidelity, for example, is bound to stir painful memories in half the audience, depending on how it's resolved. This particular opera, which aimed to illustrate how all the peoples of Russia lived in harmonious equality, forgot that, for Stalin, certain of those peoples were considerably less equal than others. In the the lugubrious tunefulness of the period, even the folk could be political.

So it's hardly surprising to find this quartet, though gloomy in parts, sounding a little old-fashioned. It's not entirely behind the times (I was reminded of the Vaughan Williams we listened to a few weeks ago), but it's much more of a crowd-pleaser than his 12th, and less adventurous than its predecessors.

Despite that, it's much of a piece with the previous dozen. Though the earlier ones might be more musically interesting, the boundaries he pushes are are pushed very gently, and he doesn't revel in ambiguities in the way Shostakovich and Prokofiev did. Perhaps that's what comes of being a somewhat introverted professor at a time when professors were expected to practice what they preached. And maybe it's for that reason that Myaskovky's faded largely from view. It's the musical revolutionaries, who unfold evolving paths, who seem to be remembered now. Possibly because, at our point in time, 'art' is a burgeoning economic category, while 'craft' has been outsourced to offshore machines.

And so to the music, which is very nicely written and has plenty of those pleasing surprises that catch the ear like a cat in the corner of a portrait. It's the most approachable of the Myaskovsky quartets I've heard, being more intricate than complex, but there's also never a wasted moment, even in the repeats. It's not at all challenging to listen to, which might be a shame, considering what he'd done before, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. "Challenging" so often ends up meaning "laboured", and this sounds as effortless as mid-life Haydn, which is why, I guess, it's more often recorded (though that's not much).

There's certainly genius in the ending of the first movement, the presto fantastico is wonderfully fantastic, the andante hits all the right spots and the finale's a breeze. Nothing outstays its welcome, and there are no disappointments, or regrets, at all.


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## Enthusiast

Like SearsPoncho I was also expecting to be a dissenter. But it is a lovely work (I listened to the Pacifica recording), not unlike Rachmaninov with a bit of the French impressionists thrown in! For all that it is quite distinctive. I am left wondering if I have been seriously underestimating this composer. I only knew his violin concerto and had been somewhat underwhelmed by it and I had heard a few of the symphonies without wanting to go deeper. I will have to explore more of his music: any particular recommendations?


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> Like SearsPoncho I was also expecting to be a dissenter. But it is a lovely work (I listened to the Pacifica recording), not unlike Rachmaninov with a bit of the French impressionists thrown in! For all that it is quite distinctive. I am left wondering if I have been seriously underestimating this composer. I only knew his violin concerto and had been somewhat underwhelmed by it and I had heard a few of the symphonies without wanting to go deeper. I will have to explore more of his music: any particular recommendations?


Try the 10th quartet, Enthusiast. I actually prefer it to the 13th.


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## sbmonty

I just picked up the Taneyev Quartet boxset after enjoying No. 13 so much. Enjoyed No. 1 as well. Definitely sounds like a Bond film theme in the third movement. Looking forward to listening to them all. Nice choice!


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## StevehamNY

Thank you for the great piece, Burbage! I was hoping for some insight into how a composer who was so clearly influenced by Tchaikovsky and Borodin could nevertheless find himself on the wrong side of the "decadent formulism" business with the likes of Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and Khachaturian. I don't know how much he ever had to fear the dreaded knock on the door in the middle of the night, but the ultimate irony is that, besides the Stalin Prizes he won for the 9th and 13th string quartets (as you mentioned), he was also awarded the same prize four other times: for Symphonies 21 and 27, for the Concerto for Cello and Orchestra, and for Sonata No. 2 for Cello and Piano. If you're keeping score, that's more Stalin Prizes than anyone else, ever.









He was described as "a fragile, secretive, introverted man, hiding some mystery within." No doubt the injury and shell shock he suffered during the war contributed to this. So probably not an easy man to get to know even then, let alone 70 years after his death. There are two anecdotes that nonetheless inspire some admiration: The first relates that, while at the St. Petersburg Conservatory, he and the much younger Prokofiev bonded over a shared distain for their professor, Anatoly Lyadov, who apparently had no use for the music of Edvard Grieg. So naturally, Myaskovsky chose a theme by Grieg for the variations that close his String Quartet No. 3. The second anecdote comes much later and reports that, immediately after the formulist decree, he was visited by Tikhon Khrennikov, who frantically advised him to deliver a speech of repentance at the next meeting of the Composers' Union. In the movie version of this scene, we would immediately cut to "EXT. MYASKOVSKY RESIDENCE - NIGHT," with the door opening and Khrennikov being thrown into the street.

The one thing we do know of Myaskovsky is that he surely knew he was dying when he wrote this last string quartet. A distant echo of Beethoven, perhaps: not only that he would turn to the quartet for his last composition, but also that the music itself would sound somewhat reminiscent, not meant to break new ground but rather to recapture one more time all of the things he had tried to convey throughout his musical life.

And on that note of pseudo-Burbageness (I'll never come close to the original!), I'll thank everyone here for taking the time to listen. As always, I'm looking forward to whatever comes next!


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## Allegro Con Brio

This quartet blends an effortless Russian-to-the-core lyricism with a vital energy and intellectual rigor that results in a successful product. I found it remarkable how nary 5 seconds ever passed by without some fleeting, ear-tickling detail of counterpoint or texture; almost so much so that I found it a bit difficult to keep track of the structure. I found the first movement least convincing, but that scherzo is a gem—witty, rowdy, and deliriously mercurial with all those jaunty rhythmic changes. The somewhat furtive slow movement is less of a calm reprieve than many because it seems to be constantly searching, never reaching resolution, always developing. And the finale is a near-perfect miniature. This is one I will definitely want to revisit with slightly more attentive ears. I have always wanted to explore Myaskovsky's music based on what I know of it, but I am always overwhelmed because the guy was a machine and I don't know where to start—all those symphonies and quartets plus a great deal of other chamber music. Does anyone have any recommendations for which symphonies they like most? I think I've heard, at most, three of them, but can't remember much of them.


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## Burbage

Here, in London (England), our annual week of tolerable weather has drawn to a close and, thanks to a government-mandated shift to what's sarcastically known as "British Summer Time", a damp and foggy morning is belatedly attempting to dawn with all the cheer of a debt-collector's smile.

And so, having looked blankly at my list of Important Quartets That Must Surely Be Next, I'm going to throw taste and caution to the winds and nominate *Tomás Bretón's String Quartet No. 3*, partly because it seems to be my turn, but mostly because it makes me happy.

I can't guarantee it'll have the same effect on everyone, but we've not been to Spain since 2020, and haven't had a Capricorn since last July, so it ticks some boxes, regardless. Sadly, perhaps, there's only one commercial recording of it that I know of, but it's on Naxos, so should be available on most/all of the streaming platforms. If it isn't, then Earsense [1] has helpfully knitted the YouTube fragments together while IMSLP [2] has a copy of the manuscript for those prefer self-assembly.

Finally, for those who insist on making comparisons, there is an alternative, "live" recording on YouTube [3] of the same performers.

[1] https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Tomas-Breton-String-Quartet-No-3-in-e-minor/
[2] https://imslp.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No.3_(Bret%C3%B3n%2C_Tom%C3%A1s)
[3]


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## Merl

Not heard this one before so looking forward to giving it a try. Thanks Burbage.


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## SearsPoncho

One of my favorite guitar pieces, Tarrega's Capricho Árabe, was dedicated to him. I'm intrigued.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Bretón joins Mathias and Malipiero as the only non-contemporary composers we have done who I had not previously heard of. As always, looking forward to the adventure, and I always find it interesting to listen to Spanish composers, who were often more insulated from the rest of the continent and touched more deeply by folk idioms and forms.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations for which symphonies they like most? I think I've heard, at most, three of them, but can't remember much of them.


Just closing out Mysaskovsky week as I don't think anyone answered your question, ACB. The consensus on his best symphonies tends to cluster around Numbers 6, 21, and 27.

(Although I may not be the best one to answer this as I don't spend much of my listening time with any symphonies at all. If I have a free hour, it's almost always going to be solo or chamber music, dominated by string quartets: "the summit of all human achievement," to quote Burbage. Oh, and of course screaming death metal in the evenings.)


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## HerbertNorman

This one will be a new experience for me. I don't know his work tbh.

I'm listening to the recording made by the Breton string quartet on Naxos via streaming.


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## Merl

I've now listened to this twice and I really like it. For me, only the 2nd movement doesn't speak to me as coherently as the rest but I still enjoy it and it's still early days. That 3rd movement had me from the get-go. You know I'm a sucker for those driven, constant rhythms! I'd usually expect less ingenuity from 'lesser' composers to follow in that last movement but here Breton keeps developing his ideas and I actually find that finale to be my favourite movement. Lots of nice pizzicati throughout to keep me happy too.


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## Philidor

Apologies for (almost) neglecting Myaskovsky's Quartet No. 13.

Now a trial for an analysis of the first movement of Bretón's third quartet. Adjustments and further ideas highly welcome. - All timestamps are referring to the Bretón string quartet's recording at Naxos.

First movement (E minor, 6/8 [?])

Exposition

0:00 The movement (and so the quartet) starts right away with the first subject, played in the first violin. e'-e" ---- b'-e"-f sharp"-g" … (we need these four notes b'-e"-f sharp"-g" later on, which I call the „Moldau theme" for the time being.) Passionate. Single long sustained notes, followed by large-compass melismas, leading to some suspension keeping the passionate mood. The harmonic setting is quite simple: E minor, A minor, B major, E minor, I-IV-V-I. At 0:08, this beginning seems to be repeated, however, Bréton drives the music forward by the use of sequences. At 0:27 we reach more solid ground (in terms of harmony), we have reached C major, where we stay for a while, before new sequences start. leading back to the initial shape of the first subject, again in E minor, at 0:56, and no, no repetition of the first suject, using the neapolitan chord (1:02), we are getting again to C major, where the transition starts.

At 1:36, we happily reach the second subject, in G major, the relative major, as it should be. It's funny - we are tricked by the rhythm, which claims to be in some binary metrum (we needed the score to know what's actually written). At 1:49, the rhythm is interrupted by a reminiscence of the first subject, then the rhythm starts again, and at 2:05 a new motif appears in the viola (?), just three consecutively ascending notes, accompanied by the second subject's characteristic binary rhythm. The combination gives me some andalusian feeling.

At 2:27, the exposition is repeated.

Development

At 4:54, we reach the development, first section, the first subject is back in E minor, as if there was a third repetition, but of course, Bretón now leaves the trodden path.

At 5:50, a 2nd section unfolds, using a motif from the transition.

At 6:18, the rhythm of the 2nd subject is back. At 6:36, a polyphonic section is almost the last part of the development. At 7:04, the auguries of the recapitulation appear at daylight, they have been hidden the bars before. Some fauxbourdon-style setting (7:11) keeps the tension and is followed by ...

Recapitulation

7:35 - ... the second subject, now in E major. Surprise, surprise, … where is the first subject? Cool trick …

At 8:36, a new section starts with material from the first subject's group. Here it comes … and then, at 9:06, the agitation is combined with the 2nd subject's rhythm. That's real sonata dialectic - full synthesis of the first subject's agitation with the 2nd subject's rhythm. And even the motif with three ascending notes is back …

... at 9:33, in the very end, even the Moldau theme comes at home. That's a sonata form, indivdually managed.


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## HerbertNorman

Merl said:


> I've now listened to this twice and I really like it. For me, only the 2nd movement doesn't speak to me as coherently as the rest but I still enjoy it and it's still early days. That 3rd movement had me from the get-go. You know I'm a sucker for those driven, constant rhythms! I'd usually expect less ingenuity from 'lesser' composers to follow in that last movement but here Breton keeps developing his ideas and I actually find that finale to be my favourite movement. *Lots of nice pizzicati throughout to keep me happy too*.


I like that too! I think the work is very enjoyable and I will be playing it many more times. It had me by the scruff of the neck from the beginning tbh ... I didn't know what to expect and I was immediately "quite enthralled" by the piece.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Lots of nice pizzicati throughout to keep me happy too.


This piece has been a great pick-me-up in a heavy week, so thank you, Burbage. Echoing Herbert's comment on the pizzicati, on my first pass through this music I actually found myself picturing Merl's reaction, something like this:










(Complete with a nice dram of single malt.)


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## Merl

Lol. In between doing my day 6 covid test (still positive), putting the bin out and blogging my penultimate Beethoven SQ review I listened again to this quartet. I really am digging this one. It's a really pleasant SQ with enough going on to keep anyone interested. Looks like this thread is gonna cost me even more money. :lol:


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## Enthusiast

Breton is a new name to me. I found the quartet enjoyable and I certainly agree with Burbage that it is happy music. It puts a big smile on the face. Is that enough for me? Asking that question brought to light a strange prejudice that had been buried in my mind: I think I expect quartets to be serious works more than I do for any of genre. But however that may be this was a fine work. Time will tell if I return to it in the future.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl: Get better asap. We're relying on your discerning ears and comparative reviews.

Philidor: You're going to spoil us. We'll now expect a thorough analysis of form for each quartet.

Busy week and I've only been able to hear the 1st movement, but it's great. Especially that opening theme. Isn't the composer Spanish? I guess I have this stereotype that Spanish music should sound like flamenco music, de Falla, Granados or Albeniz. If I didn't know better, I would have first guessed German. Second guess would have been Russian. This is a good lesson (for me!) on the traps I can fall into when generalizing and relying on stereotypes based on national schools and styles.

EDIT: Listening to it again now (at the 1st movement) and it sounds like this guy really knew his Haydn. He was a conductor and I assume he saw his share of Haydn scores. Maybe not...


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## Malx

Sadly I haven't given a lot of time so far to Burbage's choice one listen through yesterday evening but my head was feeling a bit foggy and I couldn't really concentrate - spent most of last night ffighting to get some sleep and failing 6.30 am tested postive for Covid this new variant seems to be so easily passed on as I am probably one of the more careful people out there but hey-ho at least it isn't as severe as the early versions.

Edit - I've now listened to this quartet a couple of times today and I'm still not really connecting with it. It is a sunny piece, a happy piece but I'm still struggling - I've added it to my favourites in Qobuz and will try again at some future time.


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## Carmina Banana

First of all, this was a thoroughly enjoyable listen. I am hearing a Spanish flavor coming through once in while but also the German/Viennese tradition pulling in another direction. It is hard to pinpoint what makes it sound Spanish. Eventually, it would come down to melodic, rhythmic, harmonic confluences and I could rack my brain trying to identify those, but it probably won’t happen this week.
I do think it is very interesting to consider this friction that makes a composer what they are: on the one hand, they want to or are pressured to celebrate their local culture, whatever that may be, but on the other hand, they went through a lot of education and struggle to be one of the heavy hitters in the mainstream music scene and want to be taken seriously.
Tchaikovsky is a good example—he would include a rousing Russian folk tune, but you get the feeling he kind of knew he was above that. Gershwin might be another—famously he wanted to study with Ravel and that composer told him to keep doing the Tin Pan Alley schtick. 
I guess one might look at this Breton piece as Spanish music in disguise. Many of the themes have a Spanish sound, but they are contained in a traditional classical form and structure. Speaking of which, thank you so much for the analysis, Philidor. I’m going to take one part of that and just expound on it for a moment:
What you call a “binary metrum” is, I think a typical hemiola as used by composers like Tchaikovsky, Schumann, etc. In other words a device that puts him squarely in the running for mainstream classic/romantic composer. However, there are also many folk traditions, Spanish and otherwise, that use an alternating rhythm—essentially a hemiola—as an intrinsic element in that dance form. I suppose an easy example, since we all know it is Bernstein’s America from West Side Story. I think this is kind of a generic version of an alternating 6/8 3/4, but it is the same principle. The point is that this folk tradition of alternating every measure between 6/8 and 3/4 or similar meters becomes a hemiola in the hands of classical composers. And that is how Breton uses it in the this first movement. Like a classical composer. 
(Side note: if you want to hurt your brain, look up the “flamenco 12 beat.” It is an alternating pattern of two triplets and three duples. OK, so 12 beats total, I get it. But you start with beat 12. Huh?)


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## Philidor

SearsPoncho said:


> Philidor: You're going to spoil us. We'll now expect a thorough analysis of form for each quartet.



When I was a child, I already liked to go into the machine room and to see, how things were working ...


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## Merl

BTW, I didn't give Malx covid. I should be negative tomorrow but at least I've had loads of time to listen to quartets.


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## HerbertNorman

I've had the jabs , I've suffered the covid and now I discovered the Bretón ... that was the most enjoyable by far 

After the second listen I really had found the Spanish touch tbh , which I hadn't the first time I listened. Makes me feel good , this quartet ...


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## Kreisler jr

Sounds a bit like a Spanish Dvorak!


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## Burbage

_Well, it's still Friday, so I've written something..._

Tomas Bretón hasn't had much of an airing outside Spain, which is perhaps unsurprising, given that he put most of his efforts into zarzuela, a popular variety of _singspiel _which demands, at least in parts, a specific _flamenco_ singing style that isn't much cultivated elsewhere. De Falla's "La Vide Breve", more an opera than a zarzuela, contains one part for a flamenco singer and, and wonderful though that is, it doesn't get out much, possibly as a result.

Bretón's stage work is at least as "Spanish" as de Falla's, as are his tone poems. But, for one reason or another, programmers looking for something Spanish, seem to reach for the latter by preference and, failing that, Bizet or Ravel. Which is, perhaps, a reminder that Spain and France aren't that far apart, and Bretón's symphonies, so far as I've heard any, seem to owe much to the world of Saint-Saens (as nationalist a composer as any, in his day). Yet Bretón''s quartets, as others have pointed out, probe further into Europe, conjuring up parallels with Haydn and Mendelssohn.

That's odd because, when I first encountered this quartet, I really didn't notice any mid-European influence. Peasant that I am, I heard a piece with jolly tunes and catchy rhythms that might almost do service as entertainment in the proverbial Palm Court. It's astonishingly lyrical and cheerful, despite its minority (if that's the word), innocently seductive and, to my naive ears, refreshingly uncomplicated. Which is possibly why I've hitherto filed it away as a guilty pleasure (is there a thread for those?), doubtful it would hold up to repeated listening and, till now, have only dug it out occasionally when I've needed a boost.

I'm not sure Bretón would have liked that. He rightly believed that string quartets were the backbone of European art music, and apparently put his mind to building on that wonderful tradition, contributing to posterity in his own Spanish way, as the linguistic mash-up of the "allegro no mucho" suggests. The fact that he seems to have written them without commission, at a time when he was financially secure, and doesn't seem to have taken much trouble to publish them, suggests that his motives were mostly, if not entirely, personal.

Even personal motives can be a little hit-and-miss, as I'm sure we'd all admit if we were in the habit of admitting things, and some aren't quite as noble as others. But it's hard to imagine this quartet transpired from anything but the pleasure of the task. For those of us with a lousy grasp of structure, it's all about mood, and there's almost nothing in this quartet that chimes with the angst or grief or pain or solitude or death or introspective boredom from which Haydn's musical heirs and successors forged their bread and butter. If it is Haydn, it's the cheerful, mid-life Haydn. If it must be Mendelssohn, it's a youthful one.

Bretón wasn't mid-life or even youthful when he wrote this. Nor did he seem to have had an especially sheltered life. But there's a guileless clarity and chirpiness to it despite its minority (if that's the word), that sings of carelessness, despite the care he seems to have taken with it. Perhaps, I wonder, he had seen what the Russians had done with the artform and just chosen to do the opposite. Or perhaps he'd heard the undeniably "Spanish" quartets of Ruperto Chapí, his arch-rival on the zarzuela stage, and felt more than equal to the challenge (I've not had time to listen to Chapí's yet, so can't say). Or perhaps, as Kreisler hints, he'd made like Dvorak, and written what he felt.

Whatever Bretón was thinking when he wrote this quartet, over a century ago, it's still as joyful as anything I've heard and I thought we could do with a bit of that. Judging by the comments (and insights and analyses), I wasn't wrong, and that's made me happy, too. Thank you.


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## StevehamNY

Burbage said:


> Whatever Bretón was thinking when he wrote this quartet, over a century ago, it's still as joyful as anything I've heard and I thought we could do with a bit of that. Judging by the comments (and insights and analyses), I wasn't wrong, and that's made me happy, too. Thank you.


Indeed you were not wrong! This happy quartet is exactly what I needed this week and I once again thank you.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I _really_ enjoyed this week's quartet, and am truly surprised that Bretón's name is not better known. I find the work to possess a perfect balance of energy, lyricism, form, folksiness, depth, and vigor. I think it's a very Brahmsian work, filled with rich textures and soaring, passionate melodies-and its insertion of rustic, festive dances within clear-cut classical forms works perfectly in my estimation. The music simply sucked me in and didn't let go. All the movements were of equal quality to my ears, but I particularly relished ballad-like nature of the second movement and the evocations of guitar plucking and strumming in the scherzo, contrasted with a delicate and poetic trio section. What a selection, Burbage, thank you so much!

Next week's pick goes to *Kjetil Heggelund.*

Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


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## sbmonty

Thoroughly enjoyed listening to this week's choice. Thank you.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Already me? Now?? I listened once to Breton and liked it enough


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## Allegro Con Brio

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Already me? Now?? I listened once to Breton and liked it enough


By the end of Sunday, whenever that is for you


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I bring to you all the Ukrainian, Valentin Silvestrov's string quartet no. 1, here in a recording from 1980 by the dedicatees, the Lysenko Quartet. They recorded it in 1992 as well. There are some recordings and a live one on youtube. I "discovered" Silvestrov because of the war and to me that gives it a special heartfelt place. The composer is now a refugee in Germany.


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I bring to you all the Ukrainian, Valentin Silvestrov's string quartet no. 1, here in a recording from 1980 by the dedicatees, the Lysenko Quartet. They recorded it in 1992 as well. There are some recordings and a live one on youtube. I "discovered" Silvestrov because of the war and to me that gives it a special heartfelt place. The composer is now a refugee in Germany.


Never heard of him. Off to investigate. Sounds like some English Premier League player from the 1990s. I reckon we had him at the Etihad late on his career. Good at free-kicks. Lol

Edit: the 1989 Lysenko performance in this youtube clip did little for me but I found the 2002 Rosamunde Quartet recording on ECM much more cohesive and pleasurable, just now. It definitely conjures up a cold, windy, barren landscape in my mind but that's just my initial feelings. Interesting work.


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## Philidor

sbmonty said:


> Thoroughly enjoyed listening to this week's choice. Thank you.


I second this. Thank you very much for recommending this composer and in particular this quartet.


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## StevehamNY

I cited Mr. Silvestrov a few days ago in my long-winded intro to the Myaskovsky quartet. I'm very glad to see his first quartet chosen here.

I'm also happy to report that Silvestrov, now 84 years old, made it out of Kyiv safely and is staying (and still writing music) in Berlin.

NEW YORK TIMES, March 30, 2022: Ukraine's Most Famous Living Composer Is Now a Refugee


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## HerbertNorman

Philidor said:


> I second this. Thank you very much for recommending this composer and in particular this quartet.


Same here, thoroughly enjoyable listen and getting to know a new work is always fun!


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## SearsPoncho

It's difficult to divorce this one from current events. The somber and elegiac tone reminds me somewhat of Barber's Adagio, but the relentless pensiveness and occasional Ligeti-like dissonance give it a horrific undercurrent. The times we live in add to the poignancy.


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## Enthusiast

SearsPoncho said:


> It's difficult to divorce this one from current events. The somber and elegiac tone reminds me somewhat of Barber's Adagio, but the relentless pensiveness and occasional Ligeti-like dissonance give it a horrific undercurrent. The times we live in add to the poignancy.


I know what you mean but I hear something more peaceful and meditative - perhaps because I'm conditioned by earlier experiences with Silvestrov (he's a composer who I have kept at the edge of my musical world for some time) rather than the Ukrainian response to Putin's war. In any case an enjoyable work not a million miles from the music of Arvo Part and Peteris Vasks.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I bring to you all the Ukrainian, Valentin Silvestrov's string quartet no. 1, here in a recording from 1980 by the dedicatees, the Lysenko Quartet. They recorded it in 1992 as well. There are some recordings and a live one on youtube. I "discovered" Silvestrov because of the war and to me that gives it a special heartfelt place. The composer is now a refugee in Germany.


I really liked this one! Meditative, peaceful and beautiful in the first half, with some interesting dissonances sprinkled in, and a great powerful climax right in the middle of it. Last year I listened to a few Silvestrov works, but this quartet is telling me to go and explore some more


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## HerbertNorman

Intriguing work, but a difficult one ... I too find it chilling and find myself thinking of what is happening in the composer's native country atm. 
Worth the effort though


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## StevehamNY

HerbertNorman said:


> Intriguing work, but a difficult one ... I too find it chilling and find myself thinking of what is happening in the composer's native country atm.
> Worth the effort though


I know he wrote this quartet in 1974, but I agree with all of this. You'd like to think that the horrific images we're seeing this week belong to another era, or at least to another century, but tragically that's not the case.

As always, music can make you feel things in a way no other artform can.


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## Roger Knox

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I bring to you all the Ukrainian, Valentin Silvestrov's string quartet no. 1, here in a recording from 1980 by the dedicatees, the Lysenko Quartet. They recorded it in 1992 as well. There are some recordings and a live one on youtube. I "discovered" Silvestrov because of the war and to me that gives it a special heartfelt place. The composer is now a refugee in Germany.


What a wonderful discovery ... it is so evocative. Thank you! Silvestrov weaves in and out of 19th-century tonal passages together with modernist music better than any other composer that I can think of.

For the theoretically-inclined: he takes the diminished seventh chord, a cliché crisis signal from the 19th century that modernists avoided, and kind of pulls it apart. Re-formulated stylistically it becomes incredibly moving.

A bit reminiscent of Bartók's "night music" style, e.g. the String Quartet No. 4's slow middle movement with long "pedal tones," but much less austere. Early on I swear the viola twiddles sound like folk bagpipes.

Overall, it's uncanny how the spare gestures are informed by his dramatic sense of timing.


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## Malx

I have listened to this quartet half a dozen times over the last few days and will echo all the sentiments expressed in the previous posts. It is difficult to listen to without reference to the current abhorrent situation in Silvestrov's homeland but I have tried.

I have a fair number of works by Silvestrov in my collection his is a soundworld I readily relate to - cool, at times sparse, often its the space between the notes/chords that seem to be important, a combination of things that always grab my attention. 

This quartet is no different, whilst we can all agree it is chilling in light of other events I think of the piece as basically a peaceful, at times beautiful work that will grow with more listens, definitely my cup of tea. 

It has duly been added to my wish list.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> .... the 1989 Lysenko performance in this youtube clip did little for me but I found the 2002 Rosamunde Quartet recording on ECM much more cohesive and pleasurable, just now. It definitely conjures up a cold, windy, barren landscape in my mind but that's just my initial feelings. Interesting work.


Interesting. I have been familiar with the Lysenko for a while but have also now tried out the Rosamunde recording. The Rosamunde is warmer and has lots going for it. But I do miss the weird mysteriousness of the Lysenko ... and find myself feeling it may be more "authentic". That may be just familiarity, of course.


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## Roger Knox

Enthusiast said:


> But I do miss the weird mysteriousness of the Lysenko ... and find myself feeling it may be more "authentic". That may be just familiarity, of course.


No, with authenticity I think you're onto something powerful. Raw sounds more like folk instruments, evocation of the outdoors by musicians who know the lay of the land.


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## Merl

Not my usual bag but I've enjoyed the Silvestrov. I've blogged my thoughts on the recordings I've heard but I did like the Rosamunde recording the best but understand completely why some would prefer the Lysenko 90s recording better. Unfortunately I didn't get to hear the Matangi recording but believe it's impressive.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Interesting piece, this. In one immensely variegated sweep, it begins with beautiful tonal lyricism, like something straight out of late Beethoven, which alternates seamlessly with equally beautiful, colorful dissonances. This essential contrast between naïvety and doubt, conventionality and subversiveness, plays out throughout the entire piece, and even the latter half with its more stereotypically "modern" webs of jagged sonorities held my interest more than some music in a similar style. I found the whisper-soft ending to be quite moving, as the sound unravels itself into nothing, not even really fading away but simply thinning down into an ever-more-slender thread until the preceding silence seems like a natural extension of it. An ingenious technique. Yet another entirely distinctive voice to add to the annals of this thread.

*Enthusiast* is next on our schedule, but the site is scheduled for a major software update on 13 April. Should we hold off a week so that, if anything goes awry or the changes take a while to get use to, participation isn't affected? I'm fine either way.


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## Art Rock

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *Enthusiast* is next on our schedule, but the site is scheduled for a major software update on 13 April. Should we hold off a week so that, if anything goes awry or the changes take a while to get use to, participation isn't affected? I'm fine either way.


The update date is for the moment tentative. Perhaps just continue, and if there is a major interruption due to the update, prolong with another week?


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## Enthusiast

If this is likely to be disrupted it may be worth introducing my choice a day early. I have been pondering a choice from among three quartets - each of them their composers' 5th. I almost chose Martinu's 5th but then thought to choose Ben Johnston's 5th (we really must do one of other of his quartets one day) but in the end I thought to choose Dusapin's 5th so that will be the one. I find it strange that Dusapin's quartets are so neglected. This one is very approachable, I feel. I think there is only one recording:


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## Enthusiast

I did enjoy living with the Silvestrov - both the Lysenko and Rosamunde recordings - for a week. Did anyone listen to the Cello Sonata on the Rosamunde disc? I really liked it.


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## Malx

Looking forward to the Dusapin, Enthusiast - I have sampled some of his quartets in the past but can't recall which so I'll be interested to spend some time with this one.


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## Art Rock

Enthusiast said:


> ... but then thought to choose Ben Johnston's 5th (we really must do one of other of his quartets one day)...


I'd agree with that. One of the best cycles of the 20th century imo.


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## Philidor

Now I listened three times to Silvestrov's first quartet consecutively. I like the innocent start, remembering me the Bagatelles for piano. It sounds as if everyone could write such easy, naive music, however ... it is an atmosphere which is somehow related to Mahler's Adagietto (without in the least being a copy). I guess that it is difficult to construct such mood. 

However, the sweet sound, relaxed, meditative, shy, introverted is distorted by and by until the dissonances take over. Short before the reprise just a motif with an ascending second is left over. Then the original naive music is coming back, but the motif stays. The music is no more the same. Somehow it seems as if we witnessed some psychodrama, and in the same time, it is fully unclear whether the naive music was the reality and the dissonances a nightmare or the other way round - was the naive music a dream and we awakened step by step into cruel reality just to fall asleep again? Don't know ...

Thank you very much for choosing this quartet, I enjoyed it very much. I didn't know much from Silvestrov, but I liked what I knew, now there is one more work on my happy list.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Enthusiast said:


> If this is likely to be disrupted it may be worth introducing my choice a day early. I have been pondering a choice from among three quartets - each of them their composers' 5th. I almost chose Martinu's 5th but then thought to choose Ben Johnston's 5th (we really must do one of other of his quartets one day) but in the end I thought to choose Dusapin's 5th so that will be the one. I find it strange that Dusapin's quartets are so neglected. This one is very approachable, I feel. I think there is only one recording:


Very nice choice, I really like Dusapin and have listened a few times to his string quartets. This one is definitely one of the best, great excuse to listen to it again


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## Mandryka

So does anyone else thing that the first part is a rip off of Szymanowsky’s Mythes?


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## Enthusiast

^ I'm not hearing that. What similarities do you hear?


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## Mandryka

Just the soaring violin melody over the agitated piano == soaring violin melody over agitated pizzicato.






By the way, in addition to the Arditti studio recording there are two others -- Arditti in concert in 2011 and Diotima Quartet in concert last year. If anyone wants them they can PM me. Both good sound.


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## Malx

After listening through this one a couple of times over the last couple of days I'm struggling with it. Part of me is wondering if the fact that I've still got a bit of fatique/brain fog after covid is affecting my reaction - but if I'm honest the piece is not keeping my attention/focus.
I may try later in the week, but at present I'm deep diving into the aural equivalent of comfort food.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> Just the soaring violin melody over the agitated piano == soaring violin melody over agitated pizzicato.


Maybe the same family but I'm not sure about rip off. I can't think of other examples but isn't it something found it quite a number of works? Probably there is a Haydn quartet that does that?


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## Mandryka

The other composer this quartet makes me think of is Saariaho, I’m listening to Lichtbogen. The quartet seems totally different from everything else I’ve heard by Dusapin, and I wonder whether it was an experiment which he didn’t pursue.

Anyway it’s perfectly nice music as far as I can see. It has a polish which I associate with French music (the French are proud of their _industrie de luxe_!)


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## Enthusiast

^ I can see it as a precursor to the 6th quartet, which is of course not really a quartet at all (it's an orchestral piece). But I agree it is different to most of the quartets - the melodic material is more "fruity"?


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## Enthusiast

Malx said:


> After listening through this one a couple of times over the last couple of days I'm struggling with it. Part of me is wondering if the fact that I've still got a bit of fatique/brain fog after covid is affecting my reaction - but if I'm honest the piece is not keeping my attention/focus.
> I may try later in the week, but at present I'm deep diving into the aural equivalent of comfort food.


Sorry to hear you are feeling under the weather, Malx. I hope you recover quickly.

Given what I know of your taste in more contemporary music I wouldn't expect this one to be a challenge for you ... so perhaps it is your health/mood or maybe it is just not a work (or composer) who you like! I hear the piece as following a single arc, with the first violin as a sort of lead, singing above the more gruff and earthbound music of the other instruments until it arrives at the whole ensemble joining it in music of some intensity. (Sorry - I've no gift for describing music!).


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## Merl

Sorry I've not been too active on here but I've had a week from hell with car/covid/family/blogged thread link issues so not wanted to start listening to Dusapin. Only listening I've done is to the Korngold quartets as I started reviewing them 3 years, ago and never finished blogging them (I have now). I'll try and listen later, when I get enough peace and quiet (and I've paid for my MOT).

Edit: I've listened twice.


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## Malx

Enthusiast said:


> Sorry to hear you are feeling under the weather, Malx. I hope you recover quickly.
> 
> Given what I know of your taste in more contemporary music I wouldn't expect this one to be a challenge for you ... so perhaps it is your health/mood or maybe it is just not a work (or composer) who you like! I hear the piece as following a single arc, with the first violin as a sort of lead, singing above the more gruff and earthbound music of the other instruments until it arrives at the whole ensemble joining it in music of some intensity. (Sorry - I've no gift for describing music!).


Music is incredibly difficult to describe at the best of times and modern music even more so.

I did go back and try again yesterday but I have to admit defeat with this one - I'm just not getting it and I hear a lot of the sounds as overly random and a bit difficult on the ear.

I did listen to the fourth quartet after the fifth and found it more to my liking I could hear connections and a bit of a flow so Dusapin hasn't been totally binned but sorry Enthusiast I just haven't got to grips with the fifth quartet.


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## Merl

I listened to Dusapin twice and it made no impact on me, unfortunately. I didn't hate it but neither did I like it. I much preferred the Silvestrov even though neither are in my comfort zone. Sampling the other Dusapin quartets (we've already done one in the Weekly quartet) I'm guessing he's just not my bag right now but that may change - I wouldn't have even bothered with Silvestrov five years ago. Still a great pick as I do like to be challenged. 👏

Btw, on an unrelated note I'd just like to *give a huge shout-out and thanks to Art Rock*, who has single-handedly updated every individual link to my SQ blogs. All of them were wrong when we switched over to the new site but now they're all working perfectly again, thanks to him. Top man! 👏👍📣


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## HenryPenfold

Very pleased to see Dusapin chosen, his music is vital IMHO. I'll come clean and say I shall be listening to some of his other quartets ahead of this one, but if anyone is new to his string quartets, then listen to the chosen work and fill yer boots!


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have yet to listen to the Dusapin (I didn't much care for his 7th quartet which we did a while back), but will see if I can sneak it within the next couple days. But for now, housekeeping: *Kreisler jr* is up next.

Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


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## Kreisler jr

I listened to the Dusapin and while not really my thing I was rather positively surprised. A bit like the mood of a Bartokian Night music extended over a whole piece.

I will suggest a piece I already had in mind last time but then went with the more mainstream Mendelssohn quartet. This is a quartet on the fringe of the standard repertoire I find quite fascinating, the single complete quartet by Hugo Wolf who began it while still a teenager and revised/finished it in his early 20s (1884).

Wolf is mostly known as a lieder composer but also wrote an opera ("Der Corregidor" on the same sujet as De Falla's Sombrero de tres picos) and a half, a large scale symphonic poem (Penthesilea) and left a bunch of other instrumental movements (two often included as fillers for the quartet). (Wolf suffered for all of his life from poverty and poor health, eventually became mentally unstable due to late stage syphilis, spent his last five years mostly institutionalized and died a few weeks before his 43rd birthday.)

*Hugo Wolf: String quartet d minor*

There are several options to listen on youtube. I am struggling with the new shape of the forum, so I am not trying any direct links.
An easily available recording on disc is Auryn (cpo), there is also one with the Fine Arts (haenssler), Artis (Accord), Hugo Wolf, LaSalle (DG, hard to find, usually coupled with Brahms on an older double).


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## Merl

Great choice, Kreisler! This was actually on my shortlist for my next pick as it's a piece that I need an upgrade on (see comments below). Not many people are aware Wolf wrote a full quartet (most just know his repertoire standard Italian Serenade) but I've always loved the lengthy 1st and 3rd movements in this work. The opening Grave movement is really powerful and dramatic whilst the 3rd movement, Langsam, is fascinating, starting with a very Beethovian theme before it veers off wildly in different directions. The small scherzo separating these two huge movements is happily much lighter and jovial. I've had the LaSalle recording (coupled with the Brahms quartets) for years but I've never been totally happy with it, tbh (I feel the same about their Brahms, btw). With music this muscular I've always wanted more bite, better accents and dynamics plus a better recorded sound). This is particularly true of the finale, which sounds as though it almost doesn't fit in the LaSalle recording. However, I do recall reading that Wolf had always been deeply dissatisfied with his original finale and wrote this replacement many years later when his style and ideas had completely changed. This will be a great chance to hopefully hear (and buy) a recording I'm more satisfied with. These are the recordings I'm aware of (I have the Keller on an old LP but it's in a terrible state - a warped, scratched 'find' many years back). There may be more..

LaSalle
Wihan
Alcan
New Music Quartet
Auryn
Fine Arts
Keller
Prometeo
Hugo Wolf Quartett
Artis


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## Enthusiast

I will close down the discussion (which never really happened!) on the Dusapin. I'm a bit surprised at the negative responses as it is music I found easy to enjoy - perhaps too easy. I enjoy a lot of Dusapin's music but do often wonder if he may be a little superficial. Still I am wondering if I have drifted too far from the taste of the group participating in this thread. This was my second choice in a row that failed to engage much response! I did try to choose something that people could engage with (both liking and not liking) so my apologies that I am failing in this.

The next choice - the Wolf quartet - is new to me. I do quite like his lieder, though, so I have hopes.


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## Kreisler jr

It was a bit of bad luck to have the software/interface change (and maybe also a holiday week for some, that also applies to the coming week) but I just looked up last october and saw that I gave as one reason for picking the Mendelssohn a minor instead of the Wolf (I didn't divulge this other option) that there had been 4 fairly modern/tough/little known pieces in a row and therefore I chose the better known and more accessible piece. 
You had Maxwell Davies back then, before that were Valen, Malipiero, Penderecki. I am not surprised that some of these works and especially in sequence "lost" some listeners more used to the classical/romantic style. (And just for the sake of variety, I wouldn't have picked to Wolf if we had just had 3 or 4 pieces by Reger, Zemlinsky or other late romantics.)


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## Enthusiast

Kreisler jr said:


> It was a bit of bad luck to have the software/interface change (and maybe also a holiday week for some, that also applies to the coming week) but I just looked up last october and saw that I gave as one reason for picking the Mendelssohn a minor instead of the Wolf (I didn't divulge this other option) that there had been 4 fairly modern/tough/little known pieces in a row and therefore I chose the better known and more accessible piece.
> You had Maxwell Davies back then, before that were Valen, Malipiero, Penderecki. I am not surprised that some of these works and especially in sequence "lost" some listeners more used to the classical/romantic style. (And just for the sake of variety, I wouldn't have picked to Wolf if we had just had 3 or 4 pieces by Reger, Zemlinsky or other late romantics.)


That may have something to do with it for the PMD - the potential fans were exhausted - but to be clear I am not complaining that some don't like the more modernist works. Fair play to them. But in general we seek lesser known works to introduce here and they can all be something of a challenge to get inside, whether they be by Wolf or Ligeti. At least that's how I see it.

This business of listening to classical music is a long game and I have found it quite interesting watching composers who were beyond the pale for many members when I first joined six years ago slowly become more widely accepted and loved. I may have played a role in stimulating some of that!


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## Merl

I think it's always hard picking quartets for this thread. You can play it safe with standard rep but I also like it when people choose things off the beaten path. Sometimes I like these newer pieces and sometimes I don't but at least you're choosing stuff I'm unfamiliar with alongside things I already know, Enthusiast, and I, for one, am grateful for that. I did PM you to say I wasn't going to post a remark but you did say you wanted me to post my thoughts in the thread and although it wasn't my thing I'm glad I tried it.


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## THGra

Nice , some Dusapin...


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## HerbertNorman

Hi Guys, I just started in a new function at work, so not a lot of time the last few days. I thought the Dusapin was difficult , yet worth it in the end. I won't become a big fan, but I think that'snot mandatory to respect the work of a composer.
Just keep it coming! I like the feedback on here and it helps me develop as a lover of the SQ , peace Herbert


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## StevehamNY

Enthusiast, I'm yet another poster who had a distracted week (as in torrential rains that flooded our house for the first time in 30 years!), but I did enjoy listening to this quartet!


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## Art Rock

Did we lose Burbage in the transition? I miss his Friday round-up.


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> Enthusiast, I'm yet another poster who had a distracted week (as in torrential rains that flooded our house for the first time in 30 years!), but I did enjoy listening to this quartet!


Hope all is well with you and yours Steve after what must have been a very trying week.


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## Enthusiast

StevehamNY said:


> Enthusiast, I'm yet another poster who had a distracted week (as in torrential rains that flooded our house for the first time in 30 years!), but I did enjoy listening to this quartet!


Floods? What a nightmare! I'm sorry to hear it. Was there a lot of damage?


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## Burbage

Art Rock said:


> Did we lose Burbage in the transition? I miss his Friday round-up.


I got a bit lost, I'm afraid. And Things Happened off-forum. Which is probably just as well (though not really), as I've more-or-less spent a whole fortnight wondering how and why the Silvestrov reminded me of Messiaen, and didn't manage to write anything down that made sense.

And then along came Dusapin who, via Xenakis, is a sort of second-generation student of Messiaen. Although I enjoyed the Silvestrov (I really don't have the words, but I felt it created a very special listening space, much as I feel Messiaen does), the Dusapin _sounds_, as Enthusiast hinted upthread, somehow superficial, more of an echo than anything (which is what Silvestrov said, perhaps exaggeratedly, of his own music). So, though I'm sure the Dusapin is all very clever beneath the surface, and the sort of thing I'd enjoy listening to in concert, there's a stasis to it that, though intriguing in the moment, doesn't quite work for me. If it summons up any sort of image at all, it's of a 'mystery' bus ride in which the driver's got lost in a housing estate; nobody knows where it's supposed to be going, and it's all dead-ends and three-point turns. Except that, in Dusapin's version, nobody gets the least bit irritated, and I'm reminded of Shostakovich's dead flies. Which might, I guess, be some sort of endorsement.

One thing did strike me about this, and the Xenakis way of music, is that I find I enjoy hearing it better than I like listening to it. In a way, the overall canvas is more impressive than the details which, in painterly terms, would put it more in the way of Van Gogh than Breughel. Or, to put it charitably, it takes a slightly different focus to appreciate it.


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## Philidor

StevehamNY, all the best for your house!

Regarding Dusapin V, I can tell you that I am in position to listen to this work quite interestedly. No problem in following the developments, the moods etc. However, what this quartet is about ... I have no clue at all. Where does it come from, where does it go to ... don't know. Maybe I need more listening for approaching.

Thanks to Enthusiast for choosing this one!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I liked Dusapin too, didn't think it was too challenging. Looking forward to some wild Wolf music \m/


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## Mandryka

Philidor said:


> However, what this quartet is about ... I have no clue at all. Where does it come from, where does it go to ... don't know.


Dusapin claims to be a particularly self critical composer. He has a concept of _the infinite quartet_, where each new quartet comments on and explores ideas and problems raised by its predecessor.

Of course, this sort of thing is easily to say and worthless if the details aren’t fleshed out.


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## Enthusiast

^ But you can hear it perhaps when you listen to the 6th. The 6th, though, could not be chosen for this thread.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> ^ But you can hear it perhaps when you listen to the 6th. The 6th, though, could not be chosen for this thread.


Here what? Exactly?

(The memory of tentatives d’épuisement has prompted me to listen to a solo viola piece called Inside. You can certainly hear that all these things are by the same composer.)


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## SearsPoncho

Very busy around the homestead this weekend. I was only able to hear the first movement of the Wolf (this is a long one, Kreisler), but am eager to hear the rest. The only Wolf I previously heard was the Italian Serenade and some lieder. Because of all the distractions around me, I felt compelled to take some notes. Here's some of the chickenscratch I jotted down re: the 1st movement:

"Impassioned opening."
"Romantic as hell."
"Like Smetana #1 - effective use of silence and anticipation."
"Like Smetana #1 - sounds like an autobiographical, artistic statement w/protagonist hero."
"Romantic as hell."
"Richard Strauss."
"Extremely chromatic and late romantic music within a classical framework."
"Exciting coda."
"Nice delineation of instruments and quartet 'orchestration.'"
"Good give and take among instruments. Knows his counterpoint and polyphony."
"Can't wait for the rest."

Ok, so that was a lot of gobbledygook nonsense, but it represents my initial thoughts on the opening movement under the duress of a fair amount of distractions, a.k.a family noise and activity. I look forward to hearing the entire quartet soon with little or no distractions, and hopefully I'll be able to summarize my thoughts better.

Steve: Sorry to hear about the flooding. Hope you and the family are ok.

Enthusiast: I'm quite sure all of the regulars heard the Dusapin. I did. There are many reasons why some quartets don't get much of a response here, and I believe most of them have nothing to do with the quality of the work. I'll be honest, I was expecting someone to further enlighten me on the music, what to listen for, what makes it good, etc. I found it interesting. I think this bunch is always up for anything, and we've done our share of post-1950's quartets, as well as contemporary works. I do believe that some of us avoided the site last week due to the changes. Also flooding, Covid, etc. can factor into the responses or lack thereof. Furthermore, there are some members who only show up when it's their week to select a quartet; it would be nice if they occasionally contributed more. They don't have to, but it would be nice.

Mal and Merl: Hope you're both back to 100%.

And what I really, really, really want to say: *STARTHROWER,* where are you? You're one of my favorite dudes here and we barely hear from you anymore. I've even seen you on the David Hurwitz thread. Come on, man. Don't make me send Crockett and Tubbs after you!


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## StevehamNY

Enthusiast said:


> Floods? What a nightmare! I'm sorry to hear it. Was there a lot of damage?


Four inches of water, possessions floating by... Then a few days of tearing up carpeting and cutting out wet drywall and insulation... 

But everybody is safe and nothing irreplaceable was lost! (And what was lost did not include CDs, vinyl, or stereo equipment.)

Thanks to all for the good wishes!


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## sbmonty

I enjoyed the Dusapin as well. Last week was a busy one, and had Covid the week before, so a little behind in listening. The Wolf Quartet in D Minor is quite nice. The 3rd movement sure reminds me of Schubert's 15th. I've only listened once but will give another few spins this week. The Quartetto Prometeo recording on Apple music. Might purchase the CD though. 
Best to all, especially those ill or suffering misfortune.


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## Merl

Listening to various versions of the Wolf since yesterday my worst fears about the LaSalle not being the best recording have been borne out when comparing to the Prometeo and Auryn which are far more vital, interesting and appealing (the LaSalle isnt _bad_ but its a bit flat-footed). Looks like an upgrade is _definitely_ on the cards. And in response to Sbmonty, I agree there's a big nod to Schubert's DATM in the 3rd movement and more than a few murmurs of Beethoven in that first movement.


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## Kreisler jr

The text for the LaSalle/DG mentions a 1955 critical edition that supposedly differs from editorial choices/emendations/errors? Hellmesberger made when he first published the piece 1903. The text for the Auryn recording (cpo) does not mention anything about the edition (I'd assume that a recording from the 1990s would certainly use 1955 or more recent). These are the only ones I own, the other information is from covers I found on the web. Interestingly, one obvious (I have not got to more thorough comparisons) difference between recordings is the placement of the slow "Langsam" and Scherzo "Resolut" movements...
LaSalle, Prometeo and Artis place the Scherzo 2nd, New Music and Auryn 3rd... fortunately, the piece is not as well known as Mahler's 6th


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## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> ...... Interestingly, one obvious difference between recordings is the placement of the slow "Langsam" and Scherzo "Resolut" movements...
> LaSalle, Prometeo and Artis place the Scherzo 2nd, New Music and Auryn 3rd... fortunately, the piece is not as well known as Mahler's 6th


Yep, that confused me too, at first, Kreisler. I think it works better with the scherzo 2nd, personally but others may not agree. The two big movements at the start make it a bit uneven for me. Its no big deal though. I'll just play them in my preferred order. And please don't mention Mahler's 6th, KJ! Between that, Hurwitz and Wagner/nazi threads they cause 95% of the arguments on this site.


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## Kreisler jr

I had not been aware of different orders for the Wolf as until a year ago or so I only had the LaSalle recording and didn't right away compare them when I got the Auryn.
(And I didn't want to complicate the Mahler thread but I also have at least one recording with switched inner movements of Mozart's C major quintet and I was pretty sure I had a recording that flipped them in Haydn's symphony #44 (the only well known Haydn symphony with the menuet in second) but I might have been mistaken as I cannot find it.) What puzzles me is that neither of the booklet text of the Wolf mentions the order. I also think there is an advantage for the scherzo before the slow movement (the longest movement of the work, barely in the LaSalle but by over 4 min. in the Auryn recording), also because the finale has a bit of scherzando character at times. However, Schubert's D 810 also has two very long movements and the brief scherzo afterwards with not a very strong contrast to the finale.


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## Merl

Like you, KJ, I knew nothing about the order issue until I tried others on Spotify and assumed that it must be a Spotify balls-up (they do this more often than youd think).
Theres a few Tchaikovsky quartet recordings of the first two quartets where the quartets are mislabelled (SQ1 is really SQ2 and vice versa). Strange that in the analysis I've read of the Wolf that no one says anything about the order. I'll keep looking to see if theres any mentions of this elsewhere.

Edit: after looking for an answer half the day the right combination of words in a search proved worthwhile. Apparently the original score of the quartet had the langsam 2nd and the scherzo 3rd but Wolf switched them later after he heard it played and thought it didn't work as the first movement overpowered the Langsam (the "emotional heart of the quartet"). He had previously totally rewritten the finale as he was very unhappy with it (the original wasn't published). As an amusing side note, he'd chosen the famous Rosé Quartet to premiere his quartet but he'd just launched a few savage attacks on Brahms in the press (he hated Brahm's music apparently) and the quartet weren't happy that he'd dissed a man they respected. Apparently they took one look at the score, trashed it, refused to play it and told Wolf to collect it from the porter at the Opera House before it was binned. Lol.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Sorry for my absence lately. Life has been crazy, and though I had some much-needed time to recharge this Easter weekend, I mostly spent it hanging out with family rather than listening to music, so I'm just now catching up on the Dusapin which I missed last week. Wonderfully inspired choice, Enthusiast! This is another one of those soundscapes that sounds like nothing else. I loved the haunting, guitar-like plucking at the opening spawning the late-Romantic Schoenbergian violin melody which appears memorably again toward the end. Then the mood intensifies as all four instruments gradually bow in (pun intended), alternating between modernist chaos and passages that almost (almost) sound like they could have come from Szymanowski or Reger. It's really subtle, effective, and maintains the attention superbly. Then the brief, diabolical scherzo like section and the dramatic coda. A really nice, concise, imagination-expanding piece. I truly enjoyed the experience of taking it in.

Just put on the Wolf quartet on the Auryn recording, and I was floored by how much the opening sounded like the first movement of the Brahms violin concerto. As the piece progresses it starts to find its own voice a bit more, but at first I was almost disconcerted by how similar it sounded.


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## Enthusiast

You put it very nicely (for the Dusapin), ACB - almost exactly what I hear.

I am finding the Wolf difficult. There are quite a few great moments, some even heavenly. But between them there is not a lot that engages with me yet and after a few listens the work is still not coming together for me. It's early in the week and I will keep trying.


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## SearsPoncho

ACB: Good catch re: the 1st movement similarity to Brahms V.C. 1st movement. 
Merl: I also heard a good bit of Beethoven in that 1st movement, particularly Op. 132. 

Good health to all.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Enthusiast said:


> There are quite a few great moment, some even heavenly. But between them there is not a lot that engages with me


Same for me. Having listened to this work before, but not for quite some time, I can now see what Wolf was going for, but can no longer feel it like I used to. It is still enjoyable, but too drawn out, with not enough good ideas to sustain it. Still, a nice listen of romanticism by the numbers almost, but sometimes that's all one needs.


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## Kreisler jr

It is an uneven piece, as maybe to be expected from an 18-24 year old composer (the bulk was supposedly finished 1880, only the finale in 1884). However, I still find it fascinating and sometimes stunning, to me a lot of this sounds at least 20 years later, not ca. 1880.
The similarity of the beginning (I only realized after it was mentioned here) to the dotted motive in the first movement of the Brahms violin concerto is probably accidental; it's a rather commonplace musical gesture. Wolf might not yet have hated Brahms at only 19 but he seems to have already composed this movement before Brahms' concerto was published in autumn 1879, although the first performance in Vienna was in January 1879, roughly at the same time Wolf composed his quartet movement. So it is possible, but I am not sure how likely.

The elegant and serene  "Italian Serenade" shows that Wolf was able of a more disciplined and concentrated composition; it's a pity that his health and circumstances prevented him from composing another quartet that might have combined best of both worlds (even the Serenade seems a fragment of a planned 3-movement composition).


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## HerbertNorman

Hugo Wolf 'SQ : I quite enjoyed the first listen. I was only familiar with his serenade and a few lieder tbh. Good choice at first listen imo. Like pointed out before, maybe a bit too drawn out and uneven. It will need a few more listens....
I chose the recording by the quartetto prometeo on Brilliant Classics.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday (though I've now been reliably informed that it isn't), and so..._

This quartet, by all accounts, caused the 18-year old Wolf some trouble, though possibly not as much trouble as he caused everyone else. Reconstructing the compositional process isn’t a straightforward matter, especially as it wasn’t published for another twenty years, but Lauterbach und Kuhn seem to have preserved, or invented, some dates and places, so it seems the first bit of work was the Resolut scherzo (16 January 1879) followed by the Grave (20th January 1879, Vienna) then the Langsam (9th July, 1880, Maierling bei Baden) with the Sehr lebhaft, allegedly a replacement for an iffier finale, pitching up at least five years later.

The publishers did not assemble them in that order, though, so perhaps Wolf made his intentions clear. Though, if he did, performers have begged to differ, from time to time, playing them either as II, I, III, IV, or as II, III, I, IV, which both look wrong to the tidy mind, regardless of how they sound. Wolf seems to been fairly untidy of mind himself, though, so I'm not sure it matters very much, though we can be certain that the fourth (the fifth to be written) movement goes fourth, which might be some consolation.

Parking that contentious issue to one side, I began to wonder why Wolf wrote it at all. He must have had a motivation, or he’d not have worried at it for half a decade, but it’s difficult to be sure what that was. He clearly wasn’t reliant on composing quartets for an income, but he was living in an apartment where Beethoven had once lived, and I might be tempted to argue that Wolf was primarily a man of sentiment, though he’d probably have never acknowledged it until, a fair bit later, he found his metier in songs. Songs, of course, allow all manner of florid sentimentality and, more importantly, are short, and that’s likely to have made them seriously attractive to a composer who, despite this quartet and an unperformed opera, didn’t seem to stick to anything for very long.

We can guess that he knew about string quartets, from his family’s musical evenings, where they’ll have loomed large in a youthful experience that, in all other respects, involved being thrown out or excluded from places. This was, apparently, for ‘breaches of discipline’ which, in those days, would have ranged from minor solecisms to scandalous outrages with not much in between, and truncated his formal education. Happily, he had wealthy and nepotistic friends who, in the way such things are done, managed to secure him an array of prestigious jobs at which, despite his lack of qualifications or experience, he was staggeringly bad. He was, it seems, a poor teacher, a lousy conductor, an unpopular composer and a roundly-despised critic. Which is, I suppose, an achievement of sorts and it's certainly not for me to cast stones at anyone else’s patchy portfolio career.

Eventually, Wolf turned his back on what he’ll probably have seen as an unfairly hostile establishment, and somehow moved into the world of musical criticism, where he was miserably rude enough to make him unpopular, especially in the Vienna of Brahms, who he rubbished heroically, while championing Wagner, who wrote only weird, interminable operas, and had been forced to build a special theatre in a province to get them performed.

But at the time he began this quartet, Wolf is just 18 years old, an autodictat by mistake, and living in Beethoven’s house. I'd be astonished if he didn't believe he was a misunderstood genius. And, like many misunderstood geniuses, especially those who’ve been kicked out of many places, he seems to have adopted an ascetic turn of mind, adding a preachily gothic Goethean inscription to his quartet, exhorting himself (possibly on medical advice) to adopt a life of deprivation. After which (or possibly before) he scribbles down forty minutes’ worth of exceptionally busy music.

Apart from its length, and busyiness, not much seems Wagnerian about this fairly absolute, non-programmatic music, though certain motifs seem to recur. Sure, there are some lovely bold harmonies, but I don’t think Brahms was immune to those. And there are apparent quotations, some deliberate, some possibly coincidental, and lots of metrical switches and grand pauses and chorales and stuff, that sounds more like Brahms to my ancient ears, though perhaps a little less coherent. Once I'd got it into my head that Wolf was forever on the brink of breaking into a show tune, I couldn't unhear it, though he manages to save himself each time.

Before I finish, I guess I ought to mention the syphilis, because everyone else does. As a disease, it’s one that Wolf had famously contracted at this time and which, we’re told, might neatly explain his difficulties or, in the manner of Schubert, all the songs. In any case, around the time this quartet was eventually published, he begged to be locked up in an asylum, and duly was. Whether that was a medical necessity, or a symptom of Wolf’s hankering for asceticism, I have no idea. But at last he’d found an institution that would have him.


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## Malx

I'm not going to spend too much time on this quartet as I can add little to what has been said previously. 

I believe the ideas to be spread a little too thinly, had the quartet been judiciously pruned to last 25 minutes or so I may have a different response, as it stands when listening I found my mind wandering.
I am coming to the conclusion that string quartets that last more than 20 - 25 in duration have to be of exceptional quality - or maybe thats just me not having the concentration levels I used to have.

I ended up believing the Quartetto Prometeo make the best case for the piece, the individual instruments being more clearly delineated and easier to follow, but still combining well enough to convince more than the other recordings I sampled. The La Salle at least didn't linger too long but somehow to me sounded almost disinterested, the Fine Arts & New Music Quartets by reversing the middle movements just made the piece seem unbalanced.

Glad to have heard this new to me quartet as always.


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## Merl

Lots of great comments and I totally get why some don't highly rate (or even like) this quartet. Its a strange quartet and the confusion over the movement order doesn't help things. As I said in my blog review (link below) I'm with the Prometeos/Hugo Wolf Quartet who go with the long-short-long-short version as I feel this balances the quartet much better and feel that putting the two long movements at the start sounds all wrong but others may feel differently. As far as the actual music is concerned I've always really liked this odd piece but felt my only recording was just not good enough. Listening to others has certainly proved this to be the case for me (thank you Malx for agreeing with me about the LaSalle recording - personally I think they sound bored). Its an odd, disjointed piece. In part it sounds Schubertian and certainly Beethovenian but I don't hear Wagner, I must admit. I tend to agree with you about SQs over the half hour mark, Malx, but there are some exceptions (I'd avoid Dvorak's 3rd quartet like the plague in your case). Many have implied that it does outstay its welcome a little but I have always liked the long movements and the quartet as a whole. Thankfully, Ive now found a recording that I can revisit. Great choice KJ.

Wolf - String Quartet in D Minor (SQ review)


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## Kreisler jr

The LaSalle is a bit "cool" but I don't dislike the recording as it also has virtues, good presence of inner voices and their coolness and fastish tempi make the piece less sprawling. The Auryn sounds better, more commited, has stronger contrasts and probably overall makes a better case, especially for listeners new to the piece. I listened twice to the former and 3 times to the latter, maybe I'll do the Prometeo on youtube tomorrow as well. (I could imagine the (used, expensive) recording by the Artis Q or the one of the eponymous Hugo Wolf Q to be the best of all, but I am not shelling out for this.)

While it also took me a run through or two to "get" this quartet after not having heard it for a year or so, I think it is a really unique piece. As other have remarked, there are echoes of Schubert's late chamber music, especially the scherzo, the most conventional movement reminds one of D 810 (and Beethoven'S op.95), also the first movement and the "disruptions" in the slow movement. Even the finale has a few Schubertian passages. The slow movement seems a mix between Lohengrin prelude and late Beethoven (the slow movements of op.127 and 132), although both this one and the first movement aren't really like anything else in their often "rhapsodic" shifts in mood and sounds. The finale seems to show how Wolf calmed a bit down in the 4 years since the first 3 movements. But this tension in style also makes it a not totally satisfactory conclusion.


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## SearsPoncho

Finally heard the whole thing by the Quartetto Prometeo. I'm glad they put the Scherzo second for the same reasons Merl mentioned. It gave me a chance to take a breath. I also thought the Scherzo was the most successful movement, with the Finale a close second. There's some great stuff in the first movement and slow movement, however, it occasionally gets a bit cluttered and congested. The slow movement seems to occupy the same sound world as Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht, although Schoenberg's dense score is more focused and compelling. Nevertheless, this is still pretty incredible for a teenager. As a kid, it's clear Wolf was a very talented composer on the rise, with a good grip on the music of some of the musical giants we've previously mentioned.

Good stuff, Kreisler. I think you described it best as "an uneven piece." There's much to like, and a fair amount I wouldn't miss if cut out.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Unfortunately, the Wolf quartet isn't really doing it for me. I find it long-winded and largely derivative—none of it is bad music, but all I could think of was how similar various passages sounded to other composers, beginning with the already-noted Brahmsian first movement (I was thinking less the rhythms and more the dramatic, improvisatory first violin writing in D minor), then the very Schumannian scherzo with that incessant marching rhythm, and the Schubert tribute in the slow movement with the juxtaposition of harmonically warped, ethereal stasis and fierce energy. That said, I did enjoy the jovial counterpoint in the finale and you can't fault the balanced, well-planned structure of the work. It just seems to lack a little something to make me want to come back to it. For this one I enjoyed the earthier, more vibrant approach of the Wihan Quartet as opposed to the quintessentially suave, polished, but maybe too genial Auryn.

Next week's pick will go to *allaroundmusicenthusiast. *


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## Carmina Banana

I haven’t had the time to participate in this excellent forum lately. It’s great to be back. My work lately has been working on a program of chamber music by young composers. It is interesting to come back to our look at “great” music of the past after seeing what these budding geniuses are doing. 

My experience with Wolf has been exclusively lieder-related. I have always thought of him as clever and even a little ironic rather than a heart-on-the-sleeve romantic. I was prepared to see a different side of him in this quartet. In some ways I did, but I also recognize the familiar Hugo. 

Maybe because I was in the mood for a big slice of romantic excess, I enjoyed the piece very much. I didn’t feel like he was doing too much with too little. Nor did I feel like he was derivative. The last movement was my least favorite. It felt self-consciously fragmented. After everything that came before it, I wanted a playful frolic from beginning to end. 

The first movement started out strangely. Many have remarked on a Brahms violin concerto connection. I strikes me as concerto-like period. The general feel reminds me of some of the over-the-top utterances from the Bruch g minor concerto. All of this virtuosity feels out of place. It feels like he is breaking a covenant that string quartets shall not be too soloistic. Then things calm down and take a different turn. 

I have heard Wolf’s style in this quartet compared to a lot of other composers, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned Richard Strauss. In my mind I link these composers. They are both romantic but more clever than your average romantic. And capable of a little irony from time to time.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina: No one "mentioned Richard Strauss," eh? Look at post 5,260 on page 263. Of course, that's all I did. No context or explanation; I just wrote the words "Richard Strauss."


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## Merl

Nice to have you back CB.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Given that it's Sunday, I'm unveiling my selection for this week, my offering to you lovely and very knowledgeable people. As all (or most, or perhaps only some) of you know, last week Sir Harrison Birtwistle passed away. Now Harry, as people close to him called him, wrote three -thank you, Mandryka, I'd forgotten- (unnumbered) string quartets, and he began late in life. The first one (the String Quartet in Nine Movements, which was written as part of a larger work called Pulse Shadows that is made up of the string quartet plus the Nine Settings of Celan) came in 1996, when he was already over 60, another in 2007, and the third in 2015. The middle one is, in my opinion, the best of the three; and it has a lovely name: *The Tree of Strings*. This quartet is 30 minutes long and in one single continous movement. It's only been recorded (to surprise of no one) by the amazing Arditti Quartet.

This selection is a little hommage to one of the best composers of the 20th century. RIP Harrison Birtwistle.


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## Carmina Banana

SearsPoncho said:


> Carmina: No one "mentioned Richard Strauss," eh? Look at post 5,260 on page 263. Of course, that's all I did. No context or explanation; I just wrote the words "Richard Strauss."


Er..um..I may have skimmed the previous posts (darn that Evelyn Wood. I want my money back). Sorry I missed that.


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## Knorf

Birtwistle! Yay! Great choice!


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## Mandryka

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Given that it's Sunday, I'm unveiling my selection for this week, my offering to you lovely and very knowledgeable people. As all (or most, or perhaps only some) of you know, last week Sir Harrison Birtwistle passed away. Now Harry, as people close to him called him, only wrote two (unnumbered) string quartets. One (the String Quartet in Nine Movements, which was written as part of a larger work called Pulse Shadows that is made up of the string quartet plus the Nine Settings of Celan) in 1996, when he was already over 60, and then another in 2007. This last one is, in my opinion, the best of the two; and it has a lovely name: *The Tree of Strings*. This quartet is 30 minutes long and in one single continous movement. It's only been recorded (to surprise of no one) by the amazing Arditti Quartet.
> 
> This selection is a little hommage to one of the best composers of the 20th century. RIP Harrison Birtwistle.


Don't forget The Silk House Sequences!


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## Malx

A fitting selection for this week - nicely done ARME!


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## Philidor

Sorry, this week there was not too much time left ...

... I just quote my notes from the "listening" thread:


Philidor said:


> Most interesting to my ears was the slow movement. In the first movement I perceive the composer's agitation, but I am not sure whether he managed well to bring it to some convincing form.


... and I am in doubt, whether multiple listening had led to additional insights on the work.

However, the question of the order of the middle movements is funny. Thanks for choosing this quartet, Kreisler!


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## Philidor

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> The middle one is, in my opinion, the best of the three; and it has a lovely name: *The Tree of Strings*. This quartet is 30 minutes long and in one single continous movement. It's only been recorded (to surprise of no one) by the amazing Arditti Quartet.
> 
> This selection is a little hommage to one of the best composers of the 20th century. RIP Harrison Birtwistle.


Thank you for choosing a quartet from Birtwistle! Nice appreciation of this prolific composer. I am glad for the opportunity to get closer to one of his quartets.


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## Merl

I've listened to very little Birtwistle so it'll be a new one for me.


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## Malx

This is a piece I am aware of and have listened to a few times in the past. My initial interest was piqued by the fact that Birtwistle's inspiration for the piece came at a time when he was living on Raasay a small island off the east coast of the Isle of Skye.
If I recall correctly it is a fairly austere work and is technically quite complex - not that I have the knowledge to unravel any of the technical details.

I will give it a few more listens during this week.


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## Mandryka

Interesting for me to think about Birtwistle's relation to the musical tradition. How does this quartet sit in relation to Babbitt's quartets or Carter's? In 2012 Birtwistle wrote The Minotaur, which seems to me to be of a piece with Strauss's Elektra in the first half, and possibly Bluebeard's Castle in the second. It's music drama which is both new and modern and traditional.


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## HerbertNorman

A very fitting choice ARME , I hope I have the time tonight to listen to it as I am very much looking forward to it. I do have some Birtwistle in my collection , yet I don't think I have this one... That's even more of an incentive to listen!!!


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## Knorf

I don't know if this thread's listeners have done any research yet into Birtwistle's String Quartet: _The Tree of Strings. _ The subtitle here is taken from a poem by Sorley MacLean, who wrote nearly all of his work in Scottish Gaelic, and was born on the island of Raasay, where Birtwistle himself lived for a time. Here's a link to an English translation:

__
https://flic.kr/p/c4ASh7

(I'm trying to break the preview picture, but it's not letting me. Anyway, the text is below the pic in the link.)

MacLean was a considerable and powerful poet, I've discovered!

Anyway, Birtwistle's quartet is about the history of the island, which is fascinating and tragic, as well as the poem. It's all well worth investigating, if you ask me.

But more importantly it's a gorgeous piece. I've owned the CD for a while, but I feel like I'm still absorbing this piece. It's been a enjoyable process! Knowing the poem and a bit of history of the poet and where he came from helps a lot.


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## Mandryka

It's just another quartet though. There's nothing really new or exciting about it is there? Some people will enjoy it of course, and some people won't, like everything. That's why I raised the issue of Birtwistle's connection to the tradition. Some of the pieces he wrote -- for example Punch and Judy and the Mask of Orpheus -- seem to me to break new exciting ground. Other things -- e.g. The Minotaur -- don't. I kind of feel that this quartet falls into the second category.

I expect there are some interesting techie things happening underneath the bonnet.


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## Knorf

Mandryka said:


> It's just another quartet though. There's nothing really new or exciting about it is there?


I certainly do not agree with this, at all.


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## StevehamNY

Knorf, thank you for the image and the link to the poem's translation. This quartet has been a real bright spot in another tough week.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> It's just another quartet though. There's nothing really new or exciting about it is there? Some people will enjoy it of course, and some people won't, like everything. That's why I raised the issue of Birtwistle's connection to the tradition. Some of the pieces he wrote -- for example Punch and Judy and the Mask of Orpheus -- seem to me to break new exciting ground. Other things -- e.g. The Minotaur -- don't. I kind of feel that this quartet falls into the second category.
> 
> I expect there are some interesting techie things happening underneath the bonnet.


I'm all for breaking new ground on occasion but why break it if not so that the potential of that new ground is to yield up wonderful new music. Is innovation the prime quality you search for in music?


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I'm all for breaking new ground on occasion but why break it if not so that the potential of that new ground is to yield up wonderful new music. Is innovation the prime quality you search for in music?


Let me just share a slightly off the wall thought about the quartet which occurred to me just now. That it would be excellent choreographed. I kept imagining the dance, how it could bring out the ritual aspect, the Artaudian gestures.


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## Enthusiast

Sounds like your ear has brought out those gestures for you?


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## Knorf

Mandryka said:


> Let me just share a slightly off the wall thought about the quartet which occurred to me just now. That it would be excellent choreographed. I kept imagining the dance, how it could bring out the ritual aspect, the Artaudian gestures.


That's not off the wall. In fact, if you read a program note about this quartet, there is a choreography of sorts built in to the score. The four seated quartet members are supposed to be surrounded by empty chairs, and as the piece the proceeds into the coda, the players ("Farewell" Symphony-like) move away from each other, and eventually leave the stage, leaving the cello player alone.

Part of the history of the island is that many of the poor residents there were forcibly removed in order to make room for sheep pastures. Also, the island saw the rise of a particularly severe form of Calvinist Protestantism that literally forbade music. There was apparently an old, Gaelic folk music tradition on the island, and it was lost completely.

The poet Sorley MacLean was also a lifelong advocate for the Gaelic language (which is why he composed almost all of his poetry in that language), and of course there was significant pressure from certain quartets to suppress Gaelic in favor of exclusively English, so the language come close to extinction, except by scholars.

All of these elements are part of the inspiration and purpose for this quartet.



StevehamNY said:


> This quartet has been a real bright spot in another tough week.


I hope your week is going better!


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## SearsPoncho

A good chunk of this sounds like the Second Viennese School. Thanks to Knorf for providing us with the info on the poem. If I didn't know about the poem, I would have thought this was somewhat programmatic or made reference to an extra-musical event. Knorf's posts really helped me with this one, and I was able to visualize some of the quartet members bailing on the cellist. Cellists always seem to get disrespected, n'est-ce pas?


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## StevehamNY

SearsPoncho said:


> Knorf's posts really helped me with this one, and I was able to visualize some of the quartet members bailing on the cellist. Cellists always seem to get disrespected, n'est-ce pas?


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## Malx

I'll add my thanks to Knorf for the info on the historical background and Sorley Maclean's poem of the same name.
The Island is rugged and has had a difficult history which I believe can be heard in the sounds Birtwistle produces - at times austere but with the occasional optimistic note coming through from time to time.

I don't hear a narritive in the music that relates directly to Macleans poem, more an overall feel for the place and its history. Remember Birtwistle did live on Raasay for a while and would be well aware of the full history going back to the Gaelic Kingdom that existed back in the sixth century, the norse connection that followed and even the fact that there were German POWs housed there during the WWI.

Suffice to say I got a lot more out of this quartet knowing more about the connections to Raasay - the sound world made a lot more sense to me. I have enjoyed this quartet greatly.


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> A good chunk of this sounds like the Second Viennese School.


I'm not so sure. To be honest when I dug it out on Saturday I thought of Babbitt 5 -- but when I played Babbitt 5 I'm not so sure. But it could be, I just don't know. I don't know if Birtwistle had any respect for that sort of music anyway. The opening bars sound as though they owe something to the likes of Radulescu type music to me.


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## SearsPoncho

Mandryka said:


> I'm not so sure. To be honest when I dug it out on Saturday I thought of Babbitt 5 -- but when I played Babbitt 5 I'm not so sure. But it could be, I just don't know. I don't know if Birtwistle had any respect for that sort of music anyway. The opening bars sound as though they owe something to the likes of Radulescu type music to me.


The 2nd Viennese School music I heard, which I probably heard incorrectly, was somewhere from about the midpoint of the quartet to the three-quarter mark. I heard it yesterday, and in light of my rapidly deteriorating memory, I'm not even sure about those "time stamps." There was a good deal more in the quartet, such as the beginning, which was in that post-1950's avant-garde vein.


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## Burbage

_It's Friday..._

Perhaps the most memorable thing about Birtwistle, apart from his being Lancastrian, is his Aleatoric Pebble*. This is, as the name suggests, a pebble which behaves in unpredictable ways. Or, more accurately, can be made to behave in unpredictable ways given that, being a pebble, if left to itself it would do nothing at all. I can, to some extent, identify with that, but that leaves me a long way short of connecting with Birtwistle in any other way, despite the recent efforts of the obituarists.

The quartet’s title, or subtitle (it’s not entirely clear) “Tree of Strings”, suggests something more interesting and perhaps not unrelated to the pebble. Birtwistle, I gather, was interested in the irregularities and unevenness of things, such as the ways in which trees arrange their branches. And so it was in a curious and arboreal mood that I began to listen to this quartet.

In that mood, it’s not an unapproachable quartet. It has its spooky turns and angles, and the four instruments, though they sway and swell together, behave relatively independently, doing their own thing, to large extent, until they disappear, abandoning the least portable instrument to grunt irregularly and ineffectually into an unhearing void, much like a cellist at an airport.

Happily, others on this well-read thread have pointed to a political subtext, that of the Highland Clearances, which mightn’t seem the most pressing concern of a Lancastrian composer living in twenty-first century Wiltshire, but we live in strange times.

Anyhow, Birtwistle had once lived on Raasay and it had obviously left an impression. Or, at least, Maclean’s poem, “The Tree of Strings” had. Though, according to John Fallas, the intriguing writer of the Arditti’s liner notes, Birtwistle cannily resisted taking the easy way out by writing a piece for harp, but chose to work up something for a quartet instead, and so resonate “on a level deeper than style”. I do not know Mr Fallas, for which I presume I can thank the stars, but there are some who might usefully spend more of their time with pebbles. Fallas doesn't much of a historian, either, referring to the crofting populations being expelled, when it was more a case of farming populations being forced to turn to crofting by the enclosure of the lands, and the conversion of arable land to pasture which, through indignity or famine or both, prompted many to leave. The grazing, moreover, encroached on the woodlands, contributing much to producing the desolate landscapes that are so admired today, and which Birtwistle will have known.

So, what with one thing and another, it's a complicated history, so I left all that to one side, and tried to take the string quartet as a quartet alone, which it is. And it’s a modern quartet, having plenty of random-sounding intervals and dynamic lurches and not much of a tune to it, very much like a pebble, in fact. Or a tree.

An interesting comparison was with the contemporaneous 9th Naxos quartet of Peter Maxwell Davies, a nested, regular affair, appropriately dedicated to a mathematician, in which plenty of clever, theoretical stuff is buried that my ears aren’t really up to. But, overall, though the two composers were of the same “Manchester School”, which attempted to get away from all the chewy continental stuff that had given Vienna so much of an edge in the first half of the last century, and both influenced by over-grazed landscapes, there’s a very clear difference between the neatness of Davies, whose instruments collaborate noticeably, and Birtwistle’s more organic-sounding work. Not that it sounds natural so much as gothic. There’s a spookiness to it, perhaps an intention not to please.

Finally, I took up the invitation to read the translated extract from “The Tree of Strings”, which isn’t at all what I thought it would be, being apparently the lovelorn musings of some abandoned swain. In full, the poem appears to be more of a catalogue of poetic demi-gods and their inferred deeds and fortunes, somehow bound by a fictional tree that intertwines, in unspoken ways, the work of Priam, Peter the Great and Baudelaire with that of the heroic Sorley MacLean. As poems in Gaelic go, I’m sure it’s one of the best, but I am not sure my life is any more complete on account of it (Google Translate’s Gaelic is impressive, baffling and comedic in roughly equal measure). And I’m really not sure how it relates to the quartet.

In that respect, I was reminded of some former neighbours of mine, a pair of interior designers who scraped a living for their landlord by arranging homes to match lifestyles the inhabitants hadn’t got, selecting custard-yellow crockery to bring the light of an Athenian Dawn to a chipboard cupboard in Penge, for example, or a rug in seven shades of psychopathic beige to recall the empty quarter of far Araby, and all the nothing in it, to a cluttered studio in Stockwell.

Here, happily, Birtwistle doesn’t seem to be cramming anything in, and the quartet evolves nicely on its own terms. Almost as if the Raasay connection was nothing more than a grain of sand to an oyster, the start of something that ends up being its own, very different, thing. That doesn’t mean I care for it much. Birtwistle was a dramatist as much as anything, as others have pointed out, and I get a bit of a sense of a wordless recitative, an accompaniment to something that I’m missing.

Which brought me back to the pebble, and its irregular but inescapable movements, its lurches and accelerations and pauses and moments of stillness. There’s nothing obviously poetic about it, or visually exciting. But it is what it is, it has no choice in the matter and it's hypnotic, calming and surprising for all that. I might not be able to mirror, in my own mind, what Birtwistle was thinking, but I can find my own thoughts in it, and that’s a worthwhile thing. It’s true that there are other quartets that do that, and this could be heard as ‘just another’, but it’s still a change of pace and shift of focus, for all that, and does what it does in its own way. Like a lime-green mug in a cupboard in Penge, it mightn’t be to everyone’s taste, but it can still serve a purpose.

*


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## Enthusiast

Burbage said:


> An interesting comparison was with the contemporaneous 9th Naxos quartet of Peter Maxwell Davies, a nested, regular affair, appropriately dedicated to a mathematician, in which plenty of clever, theoretical stuff is buried that my ears aren’t really up to. But, overall, though the two composers were of the same “Manchester School”, which attempted to get away from all the chewy continental stuff that had given Vienna so much of an edge in the first half of the last century, and both influenced by over-grazed landscapes, there’s a very clear difference between the neatness of Davies, whose instruments collaborate noticeably, and Birtwistle’s more organic-sounding work. Not that it sounds natural so much as gothic. There’s a spookiness to it, perhaps an intention not to please.


Nicely put, I felt.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Birtwistle isn't doing much for me, but I think I just don't have the requisite attention to devote to it this week due to a variety of reasons. I may come back to it at some point; works I don't care for at first often speak to me in different circumstances.

*HerbertNorman *will make the next choice, then Philidor will finish up this round of nominations.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The Birtwistle isn't doing much for me, but I think I just don't have the requisite attention to devote to it this week due to a variety of reasons. I may come back to it at some point; works I don't care for at first often speak to me in different circumstances.
> 
> *HerbertNorman *will make the next choice, then Philidor will finish up this round of nominations.


Me too. I've had a crazy week at work. I'll try again some other time, when I'm less occupied.


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## Carmina Banana

I enjoyed the piece and I believe I my enjoyment will increase with future listenings, especially if I listen through with great attention and no interruptions. I especially like the ending—it is dramatic and wonderfully “unfinished” sound to my ears (though that could change with the next listening).

Looking over the previous comments, I see a couple themes. One is innovation. 
Atonality was an innovation, I suppose, in 1905. It definitely wasn’t in 2007.
I don’t hear the connection with the Second Viennesers (I guess emulating those composers in the 21st century would be old fashioned and quaint?) but I do think there is a quality shared by any music that is strenuously atonal. Because of the difficulty involved in avoiding tonal implications, you almost need a system of some kind and music that is put through a procedure like that tends to sound a certain way. I’m sure you could make the case that within the world of serial composers, there is a great variety. I’m not arguing with that. I guess I am just saying that you can detect a system of tonal avoidance at work and, in a way, that stamps your work with a certain quality.
So if the tonal language is not innovative, there are not a lot of crazy extended techniques used, no electronic manipulation and you are neither strangely complex nor strangely simple, then I suppose you are not even on the short list for the “cutting edge.”
The perennial question is: what value is there in innovation? Can you be an excellent composer who isn’t breaking rules and creating new paradigms? I’m sure many of us have something to say about that. For now, I will just say pose this question: if we are not looking for something new as a music consumer, why not get a good set of Haydn recordings and lock it down. Done. Greatness accomplished.


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## Enthusiast

I have known Pulse Shadows for a while but think - I say think because there is something familiar about having the quartet becoming more distant from each other and then walking off one by one - I had not heard the Tree of Strings before. Compared to many composers of his time, Birtwistle did not write a lot for string quartet. Perhaps it was not a genre that particularly appealed to him. However it was, though, I found Tree a very attractive and enjoyable piece from first hearing. I found an overall freshness that made it easy to listen to. It is a serious work but perhaps a little "smaller" ("slighter") than many of his pieces. I hear a mysteriousness in it and "see" a flickering and a more explosive flashing in the way the moods shift between the more still periods.


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina Banana said:


> I enjoyed the piece and I believe I my enjoyment will increase with future listenings, especially if I listen through with great attention and no interruptions. I especially like the ending—it is dramatic and wonderfully “unfinished” sound to my ears (though that could change with the next listening).
> 
> Looking over the previous comments, I see a couple themes. One is innovation.
> Atonality was an innovation, I suppose, in 1905. It definitely wasn’t in 2007.
> I don’t hear the connection with the Second Viennesers (I guess emulating those composers in the 21st century would be old fashioned and quaint?) but I do think there is a quality shared by any music that is strenuously atonal. Because of the difficulty involved in avoiding tonal implications, you almost need a system of some kind and music that is put through a procedure like that tends to sound a certain way. I’m sure you could make the case that within the world of serial composers, there is a great variety. I’m not arguing with that. I guess I am just saying that you can detect a system of tonal avoidance at work and, in a way, that stamps your work with a certain quality.
> So if the tonal language is not innovative, there are not a lot of crazy extended techniques used, no electronic manipulation and you are neither strangely complex nor strangely simple, then I suppose you are not even on the short list for the “cutting edge.”
> The perennial question is: what value is there in innovation? Can you be an excellent composer who isn’t breaking rules and creating new paradigms? I’m sure many of us have something to say about that. For now, I will just say pose this question: if we are not looking for something new as a music consumer, why not get a good set of Haydn recordings and lock it down. Done. Greatness accomplished.


Ah, but Haydn was the greatest innovator in music history. You know, the symphony, the string quartet, the piano trio... It's always a good idea to listen to Haydn. It's also a good idea to listen to good music, regardless of whether it's innovative or old-fashioned. Saint-Saens is great but wasn't an innovator, etc.


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## Enthusiast

As I said earlier, innovators are to be highly prized but I do not think that, beyond originality and possessing a "voice", innovation is vital in composition. Often the music the music I enjoy most is music that builds on the recent innovations of others.


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## Mandryka

One thing to say is that Birtwistle seems to be a composer who works in the mainstream: his work consists overwhelmingly of notes for traditional instruments and voices to perform in a traditional sort of way. There's not much, if any, microtonality in his music; there's not very much interest in electronic music; there's no interest as far as I know in improvisation.

But there's scope to do interesting things even within this conservative framework. I think it would be hard to say that _Punch and Judy_ is just another opera. He was capable of breaking out of the mould into something new and strange. He was also capable of producing polished music which stays well and truly within the mould -- _The Minotaur_ is my example of that.

I certainly don't want to suggest that this quartet is merely a rehash of 1950s serialist clichés -- that would be unfair. The composer he reminds me of -- this is just an informal impression and probably not very well thought through -- is Rihm.


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## HerbertNorman

I quite enjoyed the piece too, it did take a few listens to get into it completely. I thought it was a fairly difficult one to get into tbh.

The twentieth century has brought forward a few great SQ composers , which I thoroughly admire (Shostakovich, Bartok,...). Yet there is one that hasn't been featured yet in this thread. This one for me is *Ben Johnston*. He has a set of string quartets that I discovered only quite recently (2019) . 
His *4th string quartet "Amazing Grace" *is the one I would like to nominate. I think this is just a great example of how a folk tune can be integrated into a work of classical music of the highest quality.
For me it is only straightforward that one of this composer's quartets is part of this interesting thread.
Enjoy it I would say!


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## Merl

Nice choice. I knew nothing of Ben Johnston's quartets until a year or so back when Mandryka recommended them to me as an example of a later composer that he thought i might enjoy. He was right. Helps that I've always loved the melody of Amazing Grace too.


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## Mandryka

There are at least four recordings of this quartet

1. Kepler
2. Kronos in the studio
3. Kronos at the proms -- a recording exists, I'm trying to get it, but so far no joy.
3. Fine Arts (This LP for the Gasparo label, never commercially liberated from the vinyl, but I have a transfer, if anyone wants it they can PM me.)


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## Merl

Btw, there's a far-too-technical-for-me piece on the Ben Johnston quartets by the Keller quartet here. Even if much of the musical theory went over my head I found the rest really interesting.


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## StevehamNY

I just tried reading this piece: AN INTRODUCTION TO THE STRING QUARTETS OF BEN JOHNSTON and now I need to go lie down with a cool washcloth on my forehead.

To anyone on this board who can understand the ins and outs of "extended just intonation," I just want to say God bless you and you're my hero this week.

Either way, I'm looking forward to giving this piece a better shot. Last time didn't really work so well.

(Wow, I'm making myself sound like a real simpleton here. I'm not, I promise! I can show you my SAT scores!)


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## Art Rock

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Given that it's Sunday, I'm unveiling my selection for this week, my offering to you lovely and very knowledgeable people. As all (or most, or perhaps only some) of you know, last week Sir Harrison Birtwistle passed away. Now Harry, as people close to him called him, wrote three -thank you, Mandryka, I'd forgotten- (unnumbered) string quartets, and he began late in life. The first one (the String Quartet in Nine Movements, which was written as part of a larger work called Pulse Shadows that is made up of the string quartet plus the Nine Settings of Celan) came in 1996, when he was already over 60, another in 2007, and the third in 2015. The middle one is, in my opinion, the best of the three; and it has a lovely name: *The Tree of Strings*. This quartet is 30 minutes long and in one single continous movement. It's only been recorded (to surprise of no one) by the amazing Arditti Quartet.
> 
> This selection is a little hommage to one of the best composers of the 20th century. RIP Harrison Birtwistle.


A bit late, but a big thank you for drawing my attention to this work. I own a handful of Birtwistle CD's, but never explored his string quartets.


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## Enthusiast

Good to see Johnston up next. When I mentioned him as a possible while I was proposing (eventually) Dusapin I had been hoping to provoke someone else to go for him. The 4th is one I know, perhaps not as well as some others, and it will be good to get to know it a little more, especially if some can post some interesting history and pointers.


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## Mandryka

In his interview with William Duckworth (in _Talking Music_) Johnston singles out the 4th and 5th quartets as his favourites, and his settings of John Donne (Sonnets of Desolation) None of them have anything much in common musically. What they have in common is that all three are related to the Christian religion. The two quartets are based on church hymn tunes, the Donne is Christian poetry. In the interview Johnston reveals some strong political and moral opinions, I suspect he was a religious person.

He says he likes the Fine Arts recording of the 4th quartet, he says it's excellent, really fine. While not going as far as to say that he doesn't like the Kronos, he says that The Fine Arts "is more like what I think the work is like than The Kronos's recording, which is a lot different. But I don't dislike the Kronos version; I think it's perfectly okay to take the work in that direction. . . They [Kronos] make more of a world music piece out of it. For example, the Harry Partch part happens to use a scale which is an ancient Greek scale, and that scale happens to approximate most closely the commonest of Japanese scales. So the second violinist, who has the solo at that point, decided to interpret it à la Kabuki, so it becomes a Japanese variation. . . . He plays around with them [the pitches in the scale] the way the Japanese do. There's a lot of glissando. It isn't clean. So other people have gotten to know the piece through that recording, but have declined to play it that way when they saw the score. The scale is not as clean when you play it the Japanese way, but . . . I don't mind. The scale is the point of departure in that case. It's like a free jazz performance as opposed to a straight down the line traditional jazz approach -- the difference between Jimi Hendrix and someone who plays mostly Dixieland. It's a question of interpretation. . . I am very happy with it."


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## HerbertNorman

Enthusiast said:


> Good to see Johnston up next. When I mentioned him as a possible while I was proposing (eventually) Dusapin I had been hoping to provoke someone else to go for him. The 4th is one I know, perhaps not as well as some others, and it will be good to get to know it a little more, especially if some can post some interesting history and pointers.


You did remind me of him when you made your nomination! I did contemplate a few others , like Erwin Schulhoff's first SQ... but in the end I felt convinced i had to nominate one of his works.


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## Enthusiast

^ And now perhaps someone will follow through on your Erwin Schulhoff consideration!


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## Merl

Listening to the Kepler and Kronos, side by side they are very different interpretations. The Kepler is more appealing to my ears at the moment but I still have the Fine Arts recording to sample (thank you, YKW).


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## Mandryka

Ben Johnston assimilates his exploration of just intonation to Schoenberg’s exploration of pitch serialism. Basically the idea is that Common Practice Tonality was in the doldrums - Schoenberg’s thought was to explore what happened if you abandon the presupposition that certain pitch relationships are prioritised, Johnston’s big thing was to see what happens if you abandon the idea that there are twelve tones in an octave.

I can’t hear anything particularly special about this quartet, though it’s very pleasant to hear. Yes, unexpected sonorities are integrated into a tonal background, and that’s cool and the resulting music is easy to hear precisely because the tonal background is always clearly present. But is it a big deal really? I mean, it sure ain’t Pierrot Lunaire.


However, I can hear that the quartet that follows - the fifth - is moving music into seriously new places. I like the 5th very much.

And that makes me wonder, what’s the 5th doing that the 4th isn’t, exactly?


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> However, I can hear that the quartet that follows - the fifth - is moving music into seriously new places. I like the 5th very much.
> 
> And that makes me wonder, what’s the 5th doing that the 4th isn’t, exactly?


Speaking as a newbie to Johnston's music (and in rather simplistic, layman's terms) what I sense is the big difference between the two quartets, after listening to the 5th for the first time last night, is the harmonic language of both. The 4th dips its toe into microtonality but the main melody (which is similarly one of the most recognisable on the planet for many) is always 'recognisable'. Johnston plays with pitch and alters it but its still there, still as familiar and provides the melodic basis in a very direct way. Listening to the 5th the language is more distorted. Not only is the source hymn less familiar but its more melancholic source material lends the music a darker atmosphere. Additionally Johnston plays with its harmonic language from the off. He accents it differently, using more angular and contrasting tempi. Interestingly, the hymn melody is offered up in a myriad of microtonal tunings which makes it a wild ride for a more 'conventional' SQ guy like me but I like it. Remember how I said a while ago that I need 'something' in a piece to 'hang on to'? The faintest of melodic structures, repetition, a rhythm, a pulse... I just need the tiniest of fragments as a hook... Well the 5th does that just enough to draw me in. Its really skirting on the boundaries, for me The 4th is different. Its based on a melody I've loved since I was a kid. It almost feels like Johnston is jamming on it in the same way that Tony McPhee (of 1970s rock band The Groundhogs fame) would mostly jam on Amazing Grace in a 10 minute extended guitar workout when I saw him live several times in the 80s. For me the 4th is just the same - a quartet jam on Amazing Grace but the 5th has a much more unique language. Its no jam. 

I hope I've explained what I mean there. Limited knowledge of music theory is something that frustrates me but I can still explain what I hear in a more rustic way and try and get over my point.


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## Mandryka

The other question is where the work which involves Amazing Grace begins and ends. Johnston seemed to have thought that Quartet 4 is part of the same work as Quartet 3. I like Quartet 3 very much, and putting 4 with it is a nice thing to do. This is from the booklet to the recording

_Despite their dissimilarities, the Third and Fourth Quartets seemed to Johnston to form a pair. They were premiered this way by the Concord Quartet at New York’s Alice Tully Hall on March 15, 1976 (the composer’s fiftieth birthday), under the title Crossings. Although either work can stand on its own, the pairing—as can be heard on this CD—is indeed suggestive and deeply moving. In this formation, String Quartet No. 3 acquires the title “Verging,” and is separated by“The Silence” (an obligatory structural silence of between sixty and one hundred and twenty seconds) from String Quartet No. 4, entitled in this pairing “The Ascent.” Johnston has written of this composite work:
Crossings is a traverse, a transformation/journey from one leaf of a diptych to the other, from one rim of a canyon to the other, from one quartet to another. One is invited to try which pairings the work-as perceived will accept: old world/new world? international style/world music? Serial emphasis/proportional emphasis? personal/transpersonal? The philosophical game is still more challenging when only one leaf of the diptych is contemplated, when only one half of the mapping is known. String Quartet No. 3, issuing into silence, asks us an urgent question. And what is the question?
One may equally well consider Crossings a triptych, since The Silence, the middle movement, is a more than merely pregnant pause, but constitutes a tenuous and breathless traverse of a ridge or bridge between two opposite canyon walls, the nether the post-Viennese expressionist ethos, submitted to the liberating but at the same time strait-jacketing abolition of twelve-tone equal temperament in favor of ultra-chromatic
microtonal just intonation; the farther the deceptively simple and direct-seeming American folk hymn “Amazing Grace,” generating variations of steadily increasing rhythmic and microtonal profusion, always securely grounded in new-old once more frontier-fresh modal tonality capable of wide proportional spaces: new reaches of consonance and metrical intricacy which push the boundaries of intelligible complexity beyond horizons conceivable in the confines of conventional tuning. This is the world of String Quartet No. 4, The Ascent._


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## Merl

Now I'll have to listen to the 3rd quartet when I get home from work, Mandryka. Damn Mr Johnston and his fancy ideas!


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Now I'll have to listen to the 3rd quartet when I get home from work, Mandryka. Damn Mr Johnston and his fancy ideas!


It’s also cool to have this period of silence between the two. Very modern and serious.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> It’s also cool to have this period of silence between the two. Very modern and serious.


Hmm, I'm not sure the silence is needed. I think there's enough difference between the end of the 3rd and start of the 4th without it.


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## Mandryka

He wrote this about his motivation in moving from the style in 3 to the style in 4

_I was tired of composing music which interested few listeners beyond other composers and participating in specialized concerts which attracted mainly that audience. I was convinced that composers were at least partly to blame for the ignoring of new music by most performers and audiences. In a spirit of defiance against my own prejudices I began a series of works which thoroughly concealed their complexity and which addressed themselves to a far less specialized audience._

It makes me think of conversation I once had with quite a successful and totally uncompromising “new complexity” composer where he asserted that he doesn’t write music for target markets, he writes music for “people” - clearly Ben Johnston is of a different frame of mind.


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## Merl

I think that's a valid and interesting statement from the composer. Although you write for yourself you have to acknowledge your audience. When I listened to 3-5, earlier, my short thoughts were that 3 is explorative, 4 is improvising on a familiar piece and 5 extends the ideas of 4 and pushes on further (that's just a simplistic explanation). They do almost sound like a trilogy (are they meant to?) . Don't ask me about his other quartets as I've not listened to them yet but there's certainly enough here to keep me interested in hearing more so I will be trying the rest out when I've finished the reviews I'm writing. I've played all 3 recordings multiple times now and do have preferences but I suspect that people will be quite divided on which recording works best for them. They're all very different in texture.

Incidentally, speaking to my Groundhogs-loving mate earlier I asked him about the reason Tony McPhee played Amazing Grace live (in the way he did back in the 70s and 80s). Without prompting he informed me that he loved the melody but after recording it in 72 he was influenced by hearing a version done by a contemporary composer later (guess who?). This fits in with the style he played it live. The band would walk off and he'd play it solo with a just a few keyboard chords to back him. Often it would last about 5-10mins with the sounds going from a quiet, clean, well-pitched tone to a final fuzzed-out, off-pitch rendition of the melody with additional sounds from scratched strings, feedbackand a whammy bar. My mate reliably informs me that McPhee used a pitch-bending pedal on it during his live set (he was a guitarist who liked to experiment with pitch in his solos anyway). I have vivid memories of him doing it live (I saw him do it several times in the 80s). Interesting that he cited Johnston.


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## Mandryka

Second movement of quartet 9 worth a listen, the movement called “slow, expressive”


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## HerbertNorman

You definitely need some time to get into the SQs , some of them are still in the "need to listen again" category for me.
I agree with the remark that 3-4-5 seem to be closely linked ... I enjoy 4 and 5 the most tbh...

Johnston surely is a SQ-composer , his output is really interesting but it needs time to get into... The 4th and 5th string quartets mentioned would be the ones I would recommend to start with.

Maybe you should try the 9th now Merl ... if I may recommend one , ... It starts out rather simple , but the constant change of rythm makes it a special experience ... I liked it...


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## Mandryka

I can now let interested parties have the Kronos 2012 Prom performance of Qt 4, which, interestingly given the composer's comments on their way of approaching the music, comes in the context of a world music prom.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure the silence is needed. I think there's enough difference between the end of the 3rd and start of the 4th without it.


I certainly agree that the quartet (#4) makes a lot more sense as profound music when it is played with #3 as "Crossings". The silence works for me although I haven't yet tried to play 3 and 4 with no silence between them.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> It almost feels like Johnston is jamming on it in the same way that Tony McPhee (of 1970s rock band The Groundhogs fame) would mostly jam on Amazing Grace in a 10 minute extended guitar workout when I saw him live several times in the 80s.


I'm having a similar reaction to this quartet, but the "jam" on the familiar melody makes me think more of what a great jazz group can do to an old song you've heard a million times before, a la Miles on Bye Bye Blackbird or Trane on My Favorite Things. 

I'm still working my way into some the other quartets, but I was honestly surprised by how much I immediately took to the 4th!


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## Philidor

I am late with Birtwistle's "Tree of Strings". 

In the beginning I have the clear impression of living objects interacting with each others. Of course this is inspired by the title, but is works for me.

Each time I listen to the quartet - I think it was now the fifth listen since choosing - I get further with the "interacting" approach. And I like it more each time. I have no idea how Birtwistle did it, what was going on behind the scene, but it is a masterpiece (silly phrase of mine, I know ...). I have no idea what the logic behind could be, but the more I listen to it, the more I get familiar with it. 

I think there is still some way to go, but it is worth going this way. Thank you for choosing.


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## starthrower

A wonderful arrangement with some attractive sonorities and folksy goodness. But after a couple of listens I was eager to hear more from Johnston. I followed Mandryka's lead and listened to the 5th. As Merl eloquently described, No.5 is more ambitious, abstract, and challenging to the listener. I'll need to spin this one a few more times.

I should add that I listened to both by the Kepler Quartet.


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## StevehamNY

starthrower said:


> A wonderful arrangement with some attractive sonorities and folksy goodness.


To my ears, the first three minutes of this quartet bring to mind some good ol' bluegrass fiddling, with one instrument even sounding like a banjo has joined in. Then the whole thing takes just off in a new direction, first rocking it, then bending it, then taking the melody apart and putting it back together again at the end.

Pretty sure I would never use this combination of words about any other string quartet! 

Very glad I got to hear it.


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## SearsPoncho

starthrower said:


> A wonderful arrangement with some attractive sonorities and folksy goodness. But after a couple of listens I was eager to hear more from Johnston. I followed Mandryka's lead and listened to the 5th. As Merl eloquently described, No.5 is more ambitious, abstract, and challenging to the listener. I'll need to spin this one a few more times.
> 
> I should add that I listened to both by the Kepler Quartet.


Yay! Happy to see you back here, ST.


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## Malx

After initial doubts about this quartet subsequent listens have convinced me that this is a successful and highly enjoyable set of variations on the theme of 'Amazing Grace'. Johnston does a great job in stretching, dissecting and generally playing about with his theme but never loses the essence of the tune.
I don't really hear the connection with the third quartet, but thats fine as the piece works well enough on its own - the third quartet works just as well for me as an individual composition, I guess I'm missing that something that makes the connection.
Ben Johnston's quartets are definitely worthy of further investigation.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> After initial doubts about this quartet subsequent listens have convinced me that this is a successful and highly enjoyable set of variations on the theme of 'Amazing Grace'. Johnston does a great job in stretching, dissecting and generally playing about with his theme but never loses the essence of the tune.
> I don't really hear the connection with the third quartet, but thats fine as the piece works well enough on its own - the third quartet works just as well for me as an individual composition, I guess I'm missing that something that makes the connection.
> Ben Johnston's quartets are definitely worthy of further investigation.


I think the idea is that there isn’t a connection - other than they both use just intonation - and that’s the point. The idea is that in listening to 3 and 4 you face up to an existential choice - are you a 3 person or are you a 4 person, or do you go both ways? I’m 3, you’re 4, but that’s OK, live and let live, peace be with you etc.


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## Mandryka

A totally off the wall suggestion. People who found themselves liking Johnston but who had previously thought they were diehard conservatives may also enjoy Wolfgang Rihm’s 11th quartet.


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> I think the idea is that there isn’t a connection - other than they both use just intonation - and that’s the point. The idea is that in listening to 3 and 4 you face up to an existential choice - are you a 3 person or are you a 4 person, or do you go both ways? I’m 3, you’re 4, but that’s OK, live and let live, peace be with you etc.


Not sure I said I preferred 4 to 3 nor do I feel the need to make a choice - I may fall down on either side of that particular fence when I get the chance to listen to 3 a few more times.
That said I'm happy to have started with 4 as a way into Johnston's quartet world. I also enjoyed 9 on first listen but am sure it will reveal more with further exploration.


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> A totally off the wall suggestion. People who found themselves liking Johnston but who had previously thought they were diehard conservatives may also enjoy Wolfgang Rihm’s 11th quartet.


Or better, but not a quartet, Rihm’s Verwandlungen cycle.


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> I think the idea is that there isn’t a connection - other than they both use just intonation - and that’s the point. The idea is that in listening to 3 and 4 you face up to an existential choice - are you a 3 person or are you a 4 person, or do you go both ways? I’m 3, you’re 4, but that’s OK, live and let live, peace be with you etc.


No doubt this is well informed. But what I see listening to 3 and then 4 is inspired by the title "Crossings" - a picture of crossing from one side (maybe of a river or maybe something less tangible) to another. Both sides are different (and there is a magic in that transition from one to the other) but I am not sure we are being asked to choose. Certainly, 4 feels like safer and more homely ground.


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> A totally off the wall suggestion. People who found themselves liking Johnston but who had previously thought they were diehard conservatives may also enjoy Wolfgang Rihm’s 11th quartet.


You can find this on Spotify if you type in the title of the Wergo release, Interscriptum. But for some reason I can't get it to play the first and third movements. It's also on Apple Music but I don't have a subscription.


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## Burbage

_It's Saturday, so here's something._

On listening to Johnston’s 4th Quartet, the first impression I was left with was of a neat set of technical exercises. Not one I’m fond of, though, as it's a set of variations on a tune that I've strongly disliked since Sunday School, for reasons I wouldn't go into even if I could remember them. Some experiences are best left in the past. Nevertheless, it’s a very popular tune that has attracted over the centuries a considerable weight of religious, political, nationalistic and mythological baggage, according to time and taste, presumably because the words that are usually attached to it reinforce the eternally uplifting message that all the miseries of life will somehow be rewarded beyond the veil, so the more hardships we can endure, the merrier. I’ve never found that to be a convincing message but, however counter-intuitively, it was good enough for the anti-slavery movement, so I tried not to worry my little head about it, and attempted to give it a fair hearing.

So what’s it all about, then? My previous exposure to Johnston’s apparently concertproof quartets has been limited, but I’m assured that this one in particular was intended for public performance, an intention contrived by applying Johnston’s compositional methods to the subtitular saccharine dirge. How successful it’s been is not clear, though it's had more recordings than some we've explored. Perhaps that’s just because the tune is a popular one. Or, perhaps, it’s because it has a tune at all.

That’s not to say that audiences (by which I mean me) demand a tune, Messiaen can still pack halls, though few go whistling home after. But if someone’s got something to say for themselves, it’s hardly too much to ask for them to say it in a language that can be, if not understood, at least followed. An analogy might be that of a car journey, in which unlettered souls are strapped in the back, with a poor view of surroundings or progress or anything much. The result, as parents will know, usually lies on a spectrum between a gnawing doubt as to whether we’re nearly there yet and external manifestations of nausea.

The solution is either a better view or a useful distraction, and a tune gives a better view. Here, there's a recognisable scaffolding, too, as it's a theme and variations and so, even without sight of the score, the naive listener has a reasonable view of whereabouts they are, where it’s going and, most importantly, how it's evolving. I can clearly hear that one variation is different from another and, though I mightn’t be able to see how madly its been done, and exactly how close we are to the gibbering apotheosis, the carving of notches on a mental scale of howlingness is, in itself, a pleasant diversion. And, as others have pointed out, there's a full palette of styles and impressions on show which I'm sure would be intriguing and charming and delightful if deployed on any other tune.

Admittedly, those aren't quite the only solutions, and even 'atonal' music can have a home key to return to, though the sense of that can quickly be lost unless it's periodically reinforced. Which is, I imagine, why tonality dominates the charts. Once you’ve torn up the rules, all that’s left is familiarity, and you can’t sell that with tickets to a one-off performance. Repeated listenings to recordings will work, eventually, but that’s harder and more charitable labour than the public is often willing to invest.

Either way, Johnston’s adjacent quartets, the third and fifth, aren’t inaccessible, and I enjoyed both more than the fourth. That might simply be for the reason mentioned above, but I think it's because, despite his lack of taste, Johnston seems to have been a very capable composer. His use of microtones might irritate some, being inspired by an ideological intemperance toward temperament, and come a good fifty years before others did much the same thing. Though his predecessors did so with more of a cultural inspiration, albeit a possibly appropriative one, Johnston’s quest is more Pythagorean, which seems noble, though the search for universality risks following in the footsteps of Ptolomy and Esperanto, and there's nothing really new there. That's not to say that ancient and modern can't mix nicely, and I'm fond of Malipiero who does little else, but it carries risks. Much as it does in culinary quarters, where the pursuit of 'fusion food' has led humanity to the sorry depths of currywurst and coronation chicken. Having said that, I'm struck by Simon Standage's comment that the notes of a string quartet, bar the open strings, are all 'bendable', so perhaps the question might be why other composers have so doggedly stuck to the restrictions of an absent harpsichord.

The motivation for this particular quartet isn’t hard to find, as it resulted from a commission by the Fine Arts Foundation who gave Johnston, as well as a chunk of money, a wider audience (for which he made concessions) and a captive quartet (for which he didn’t). That makes for some interesting contrasts as Johnston was clearly a very capable composer and what seems baffling on the page sounds much clearer to the ear. So, though I don’t really care for this one (most likely because I roundly hate the tune), Johnston’s quartets seem to sing of themselves, in that great American tradition of Whitman’s, and so serve one purpose, at least.


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## Merl

I've developed quite a soft spot for this quartet. It doesn't outstay its welcome, I like the original melody of Amazing Grace (sorry Burbage) and there's so many ineresting things going on between the notes that I've found myself listening to all 3 official releases on multiple occasions this week (and the Kronos Live Proms boot). Needless to say I've blogged a brief review, if you're interested (just a short one today). Hearing the 4th has made me listen to those quartets around it and I'm finding I like Johnston's harmonic language. I think you folks on here are getting used to what I like and what I don't but what I like about Johnston is he plays with sound without taking away the music so rather than the formulaic ghostly glissandi and painfully long silences (that comes after this piece ) we actually get a fair amount of string playing. A composer I'll definitely be returning to again.

Edit: apologies that I originally wrote 'Carter' instead of Johnston. I was listening to both this morning.  I still struggle with Carter.


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## Philidor

Johnston's quartet No. 4 gives me the impression that it never leaves the sphere of a spiritual. In spite of all complexity, e. g. the pizzicato variation, it has something of manual work, handicraft, "we come together and we are playing something". I like it and I also tried No. 5, which is maybe still more interesting. 

After all, further investigation will probably pay out interests.


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## Mandryka

Here's an interesting thing to do. Compare the single movement Quartet 6 on this free and legal download of an LP transfer, played by The New World Quartet

Avant Garde Project 9 Ben Johnston (bath.ac.uk)

With the performance from The Kepler. The Kepler worked with the composer and their sole raison d'etre was to play his quartets. The 6th quartet is hard to play. As far as I can see, the New World just don't play the microtones correctly. Some people may actually prefer that of course.

I think the Kepler performance makes it into really beautiful music.


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## Mandryka

And while I'm here, the Kepler recording of Quartet 6 has a short piece called Quietness for quartet and voice -- the voice is the composers' -- you can hear him. The text is "spiritual" of course, he was into that stuff. Brace yourself

_Inside this new love, die
Your way begins on the other side
Become the sky

Take an axe to the prison wall
Escape!
Walk out like someone suddenly born into color
Do it now!

You're covered with a cloud
Slide out the side
Die and be quiet

Quietness is the surest sign that you've died
Your former life was a frantic running from silence
The speechless full moon comes out now_


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## Carmina Banana

This has been a really fun week, exploring this mind-bending music. I have done as suggested and listened to 3, 4 and 5. So far, 5 is my favorite. The intricate tuning scheme is very audible in this piece and the twists and turns it takes are fascinating. He was a fearless explorer not just because of the just intonation thing, but the way he structured a piece. It doesn’t seem bound by rules but follows the composer’s whims, whatever they may be. I realize that quartet #4 is a theme and variations but still and that is obviously a structure with certain rules, but even so, there is a wonderful spontaneity to what he did.

Just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, I question the practicality of creating music that must be played with such unconventional tuning. Listening and reading comments from the Kepler Quartet, I get the impression that playing his works is incredibly difficult. Expecting the average listener to appreciate his work and not just declare it “out of tune” is asking a lot as well. 

I don’t have a lot of experience with tuning systems, but I have done a little harpsichord tuning. For those have not tried to tune a keyboard instrument, you basically have a series of intervals that, if tuned perfectly will lead you back to the note you started on, but here’s the hitch: it isn’t quite the same note. For hundreds of years, keyboardists have been finding different ways of distributing that extra bit so nothing is perfectly in tune, but nothing is horribly out of tune either. 

For your average string player, tuning is a life long challenge. I have seen professional string players inching through quartets trying to carefully tune every chord. But what does it mean to tune that chord? Perfection (a beatless interval) can not exist across the board. I asked a violinist once if she tuned her strings to be perfect intervals and she said no. I don’t remember how she adjusted so her overall tuning world came out right, but I suspect most string players tune their fifths pure to start with (or they use a tuner which will produce equal tempered intervals). Getting back to the quartet inching their way through chords: this is based on the system of give and take that results in "pretty good" sounding intervals. With a system like the one Johnston created, they are asked to adopt a whole different way of hearing those intervals. I can’t imagine how hard that must be. And all of that so you can play one composer’s works?

I suppose one benefit of playing these quartets as the Kepler has done would be their increased sensitivity to all microtonal nuance. This would come in handy for other recent composers.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This little piece has inspired some great discussion this week. Honestly, even as someone who is currently studying music theory and ear training at a college level and being a semi-possessor of relative pitch, I had a hard time picking up on the tuning difference (although it is noticeable if you know about it, and some of what my ear detects as odd portamento might actually be the displacement of pitches). This is an effective set of variations on an evergreen tune that I never get tired of hearing, and there are both some striking and beautiful modernist sonorities and rich, lyrical textures without sacrificing a sense of structure. I listened to another one of Johnston's quartets a while ago (I think the 7th?) and, coupled with this enjoyable listen, has made me want to dig a little deeper. I just put on the 8th quartet on the Kepler recording. Now this is truly great stuff; exactly the kind of contemporary music that I dig, being both highly inventive and accessible.

*Philidor *is the only remaining nominator for this round unless any other "lurkers" want to step up. After that, we would be on tap to go back to the top of the order.

[Final portion of post deleted]


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## Merl

ACB, firstly I'd like to congratulate you on doing a great job since you took over the thread so a massive thanks from me. Running any long-term project takes time and commitment and as far as the thread is concerned I don't think it's dwindling or 'low-interest'. There's been more comments this week than there has been for a while! Yes, we do have quiet weeks but I think some quartets lend themselves to lots of discussion but others don't or are unpopular. Looking back on the early days of this thread, some weeks it's been very quiet so just because we have a quiet month doesnt mean the thread is dying. Personally, I think the weekly SQ is a great asset to the site and I'd be gutted to see it go. Other posters have introduced me to a lot of great quartets/recordings I'd not previously known/heard from outside my comfort zone and I'm thankful to all of them for that. Members have come and gone and you'd expect that but there's still new members joining and contributing. So, if you're happy still running the thread then you have my backing (for whatever help that is) as I plan to continue to keep contributing when not too busy with work or blogging. Vive le quatuor à codes!


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## SearsPoncho

ACB,

I don't understand this at all. There have been some great comments lately on the weekly string quartets. Furthermore, the last month or so of works have been quite challenging; just because there might not be as many posts as a Beethoven or Haydn week surely doesn't mean that this thread should be dissolved. We're still listening to the selections, and failure to post replies just might mean that members don't necessarily feel they have anything profound to say and might want to read the insights of our other intelligent members. With all due respect, you do a great job as an unofficial record-keeper, but I don't think you have the authority to close an extremely successful and valuable thread. This thread is the only reason I'm even on TC. I occasionally post elsewhere, but if you somehow close this down, in your self-appointed, unofficial role as a record-keeper, I'm bolting. Immediately. Sorry to sound harsh, but I'm somewhat stunned at your last post. You're one of our most intelligent, eloquent members here - possibly the best. Why are you proposing this? Bad day? Look at some of the stuff that gets many posts in the general classical music discussion section - is that what you want here? Goodness gracious(!), look at the list of string quartets we've covered on page one. Look at the list of works on Merl's amazing blog. I'm sure at least some of Merl's entries were initiated by this thread. I believe that a handful of posts on this thread are more valuable than hundreds on many other threads (Look around. I don't want to mention any names, but if it's not clear to you how many semi-trolls and instigators initiate long, unnecessary, ridiculous threads and perpetuate adolescent arguments, then I can't help you or give you any further advice or direction.).

I'm absolutely perplexed by your suggestion, and especially surprised that it's coming from you.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated  To clarify, I didn’t have a particular desire to shut it down, just wanted to check and see if we are all still in this boat. Online communication can be difficult because the intended tone can be lost, so I apologize if my comments came across in a negative fashion. This, too, is the only reason I come to the forum, being a deplorer of useless Internet squabbles; and I think I will soon have more time to give it something close to the full share of the attention that it deserves. We are plowing forward! Long live the string quartet!


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## Art Rock

As I do not have the time to listen every week, I did not join the nomination queue. I do check the thread every Sunday (to update) and Friday, (Burbage!) and once in a while I pick up something that's new to me and interesting. If the participants are ever running out of ideas, I could join the nomination queue, with the understanding that I will not be posting my own reactions most of the weeks. There are a number of SQ composers that are not on the page 1 list yet that I think would be interesting, even if there are not oodles of different recordings. Anyway, do continue!


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## Philidor

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *Philidor *is the only remaining nominator for this round unless any other "lurkers" want to step up. After that, we would be on tap to go back to the top of the order.


I’ve been thinking for some time which work to propose. Offhand, Schoenberg’s second quartet op. 10 came to my mind. It is mesmerizing me since the first encounter by introducing atonality in the two last movements – the biggest revolution in music for centuries – and by using the human voice in chamber music. However, it had already been selected for this round.

Then I thought that something classic, in terms of canonic and well-established, could be a good idea to join the group. (Let me take the opportunity to thank you for including.) So I came to Haydn’s quartet op. 50 No. 1, whose first movement strikes me as a perfect example for mastery in economy, as almost everything is built using only three motifs: (1) the repeated tones which open the quartet – eight times a b-flat in the cello; (2) a cadential formula appearing after the eight repeated tones; (3) a triplet motif appearing after the second cadential formula (2). (Charles Rosen even deduced (3) from (2).) You know that Mozart reacted on Haydn’s op. 33 with his so-called “Haydn quartets” and you know that Haydn was influenced by this stroke of genius when writing op. 50. So it is not by accident that op. 50 starts with a movement demonstrating his skills in composing on a new level. However, once you have penetrated the architecture and the self-imposed restriction in material, the magic of the piece is partially gone. As this is a round of experts in string quartets, I assume that you all are aware with this masterstroke, so there is no use in choosing it.

Next idea was Ligeti’s string quartet No. 1“Métamorphoses nocturnes”. It starts using a four-note-motif as a germ, which appears in the first violin above an ascending scale by 2nd violin and viola, which is shifted between both by a half-tone. You can deduce large parts of the music from this germ, this is similar to Haydn’s method in op. 50 No. 1. Although the quartet’s vocabulary is modern (you will perceive Bartók shimmering through), the grammar and the way to construct a logic coherence is classic in large parts. There are periods, there is imitation, there is motivic development, there are development sections. Ligeti himself called Beethoven’s Diabelli Variations the ideal for the composition of this quartet. However, this variation style leads to something like a patchwork appearance, which you will easily realize on first listen. This refrained me initially from recommending this work to the honourable members of this excellent group.

Monday this week I got acquainted to a string quartet by some radio broadcast that I listened to when driving home from a chess game. Although I only got about ten minutes of it, I was immediately flashed by the live recording of the Signum Quartet. They played the first string quartet by Priaulx Rainier (1903-86), a lady composer from South-Africa. It was so strong. Imho, a fully unique voice in composing, in particular given the year of nascency (1939). I had found my quartet. However, the only recording that I could find was with the Amadeus Quartet, and it was so much weaker than I remembered it with the Signum Quartet. I was able to find a short piece of a rehearsal of the quartet’s finale with the Signums on some obscure facebook site, but this was no substitute. – I have seen some announcement that the Signum Quartet is recording a CD with works by composers from South-Africa including Priaulx Rainier at ECM, so hopefully we will soon get a first-rate rendition.
Signum Quartett mit südafrikanischem Programm – Sendesaal Bremen

So for this week I went back to *György Ligeti’s String Quartet No. 1 “Métamorphoses nocturnes”* and I hope you will enjoy it.


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## Malx

Nice selection Philidor - but I'll also say darn you as I had this quartet at the top of my shortlist for my next choice 
Nevermind, a couple of reserve choices will be warming up for early selection - unless.......


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Great selection -though I'm hardly impartial . Probably one of the few post-1950s quartets with several recordings and performances, so that should be fun for those who like to compare different approaches, and an excuse for me to try out some that I've not yet listened to


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## Knorf

Ligeti First is a great selection: a quartet I've loved for a few decades now!

Apologies again to the thread for my lack of posting and getting behind on listening. I just had another stretch of back-to-back orchestra concert cycles (one was Mahler 5, though, oh yeah!!!) and that just severely impacts my participation.

I've known Ben Johnston's quartets for a long time, and like them a lot (and his music in general.) I'll try to get some comments in about his Fourth soon. But I have another concert cycle later this week (actually a pair: an education concert cycle and then pops), so we'll see.

But Johnston and especially Ligeti are inspiring to me, so I'll put in a special effort.


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## SearsPoncho

Ligeti is one of my favorite post-1950s composers. I'm fond of this string quartet and am looking forward to some more concentrated listening this week.

ACB: Glad you're sticking around and not eliminating this thread. I always look forward to your posts. Sorry for the strident nature of my last post, but I suppose it's just proof of how much I value this thread and its committed members. The idea of it being unilaterally removed was alarming and my post reflected these concerns.


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## starthrower

SearsPoncho said:


> Ligeti is one of my favorite post-1950s composers.


I'm a huge fan as well but I haven't spent a lot of time with the quartets. I have the Hagen Quartett, and the Arditti's in the Clear and Cloudy, and Sony box sets. I'll start with the Hagen's which I have at arm's length on my shelf.


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## SearsPoncho

starthrower said:


> I'm a huge fan as well but I haven't spent a lot of time with the quartets. I have the Hagen Quartett, and the Arditti's in the Clear and Cloudy, and Sony box sets. I'll start with the Hagen's which I have at arm's length on my shelf.


I think you'll really enjoy this one, ST. It's a hoot! It's not the mature Ligeti of the '60's (Atmospheres, Lontano, etc.). Think of Bartok with a sense of humor. It's essentially a variations piece and makes a wild ride. Although Bartok's quartets were tonal (They really are, per the composer) and Ligeti's 1st is atonal, I believe Ligeti's 1st is more approachable or accessible. It comes across as a showpiece for string quartet, if that's possible. I think you'll like it.


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## Malx

Interesting you mention Bartok SP I have the Cuarteto Casals on the shelves and enjoy it a lot so I've replayed it a few times over the last couple of weeks. I have also sampled the Hagen via Qobuz.
I too hear shades of Bartok but disguised in Ligeti's distinctive voice, of the two recordings I reckon the Casals might be an more atrractive listen for those who find Ligeti a little prickly.


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## Mandryka

The Ligeti is clearly very Bartok 4, but I wouldn’t go as far as to say it’s a pastiche. The idea of metamorphoses is important I think, here it seems to me to be a sort of rhizomatic growth. The Cuarteto Casals programme is very suggestive in this respect, by presenting the Ligeti as a sort of midpoint between Bartok and the formally interesting Kurtag quartet. We discussed the Kurtag slightly here, I remember being at pains to explore it’s fragmentary nature. Where Cuarteto Casals are valuable is that they point out that have not only the internal metamoroses in the Ligeti, but also the metamorphosis from Bartok to Kurtag, and Kurtag to Ligeti.

Another composer who was very much influenced by Bartok SQ4 is Franco Donatoni.


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## Merl

Another quartet just out of my comfort zone but that's fine. I've listened to two recordings up to now and the Casals was more enjoyable but tbf, the Artemis recording was my first exposure to this piece. I've got to admit I approached this quartet with a degree of trepidation after really dislikiing the 2nd quartet some time ago on this very thread. However, either I'm finding this music easier, or this is more accessible to me in some way because I thought that was OK. I do hear the Bartok influences though and I'm fine with that. We'll see.


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## Mandryka

Here’s a comment from Dudok Quartet’s interesting recording 


_The quartet’s title, Métamorphoses nocturnes, is based on the music’s continuous
development of a single four-note motif, introduced in the beginning by the
first violin. The sticky chromatic accompaniment refers to a recurring nightmare that Ligeti frequently had about a dark room filled
with spiders’ webs. Thus commences a twenty-two-minute nocturnal adventure.
The motif is developed in the most extreme forms. In nineteen short movements, the players are challenged to balance on the
very edge of what is possible – the composer prescribes nearly unplayable tempi,
dynamics and techniques. The musicians as
well as the audience are sent on an unprecedented musical rollercoaster ride.
In a phenomenal way Ligeti has the sun
rise again at the end of the piece, when
the opening motif returns with an accompaniment of overtones._


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## StevehamNY

The Ligeti piano etudes are an absolute staple for me (I have multiple recordings, including a player piano having a go at some of the tougher ones, Nancarrow-style), but I never really got to know the string quartets. (The #2 done earlier on this forum was before my time.)

#1 is a trip! I like it! (How's that for detailed musical analysis?)


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Here’s a comment from Dudok Quartet’s interesting recording
> 
> 
> _The quartet’s title, Métamorphoses nocturnes, is based on the music’s continuous
> development of a single four-note motif, introduced in the beginning by the
> first violin. The sticky chromatic accompaniment refers to a recurring nightmare that Ligeti frequently had about a dark room filled
> with spiders’ webs. Thus commences a twenty-two-minute nocturnal adventure.
> The motif is developed in the most extreme forms. In nineteen short movements, the players are challenged to balance on the
> very edge of what is possible – the composer prescribes nearly unplayable tempi,
> dynamics and techniques. The musicians as
> well as the audience are sent on an unprecedented musical rollercoaster ride.
> In a phenomenal way Ligeti has the sun
> rise again at the end of the piece, when
> the opening motif returns with an accompaniment of overtones._


I'll be interested to listen to the Dudok recording. I went to see them last month and they were terrific. They breathed new life into Brahms 3rd quartet and talked about technical demands of playing different pieces and their use of different bows and bowing techniques. Was really interesting.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I'll be interested to listen to the Dudok recording. I went to see them last month and they were terrific. They breathed new life into Brahms 3rd quartet and talked about technical demands of playing different pieces and their use of different bows and bowing techniques. Was really interesting.


I'll be interested to know what you make of the Brahms on the CD with the Ligeti. I think that their recording of the Brahms quartets is a real revelation.


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## Merl

I'll listen tomorrow to the Ligeti and Brahms on Spotify, Mandryka. I have their Brahms cycle of the 3 quartets on gut strings and historic instruments and it's superb. They have a really interesting sound that is haunting and intense and play with an assurety that is arresting. They didn't play on gut strings when I saw them as they explained that just been recording some Shosty quartets, had to use steel strings to get that edgier sound and needed time to revert back to the guts.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post. I did leave it 24 hours, though. I was looking at recording of the Ligeti and was quite surprised at how many there are. I found 15 official releases but if you find any more then please mention them. Here's a list....

Artemis
Casals
Dudok
Hagen
Belcea
Parker
Keller
Arditti 1978 & 1994
Hanson
Bela
Cho/Kim/Johnson/Palm (Marlboro)
Voces Intimae
Kamus
Armida
Jupiter


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## Knorf

Pretty sure Arditti has two, as well. One for Wergo and one for Sony.


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## Philidor

Knorf said:


> Pretty sure Arditti has two, as well. One for Wergo and one for Sony.


Afaik, you are perfectly right. The Wergo recording was made in 1978 at EMI's studios in London, the Sony recording in the Henry Wood Hall on July 1994.


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## starthrower

^^^
I didn't realize that. I listened to the Arditti's this morning on YT assuming it was the Sony but I don't know which one I listened to? It certainly had an edgy Bartokian sound. I could never get bored listening to this quartet. It's got so many different sections and moves along rather swiftly. It seemed rather agitated for a long stretch after the intro but then a couple of short, mournful but lyrical phrases emerged which was a bit of a relief. I look forward to listening some more.


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## Mandryka

Casals played it in Badenweiler in 2014, the concert (which has the Brahms clarinet quintet and the Debussy quartet) was recorded very well and broadcast by SWR2. The Casals were in a good mood that night. Conceptually the performance is much the same as the commercial recording, it's just much more incandescent! 

If anyone want it they can PM me.


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## HerbertNorman

Hello all, very very busy at the moment . Just this short post to confirm my enthusiasm about the chosen quartet. I listened to the Dudok yesterday evening ... Ligeti is not a composer I know very well admittedly . I liked the work at first listen and look forward to another listen , when the possibility presents itself!!!


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## Malx

I've now listened to the Dudok, Keller, Belcea and Arditti quartets' recordings of the Ligeti first quartet, in addition to the Hagen (all streamed) plus the Casals from my shelves.
Suffice to say this is a work I enjoy and whilst it has been of interest hearing the other recordings, I keep coming back to the Casals. This recording/performance just seems to match my idea of what sounds 'correct' for this quartet - of course the work will be open to a multitude of different approaches and your idea of what sounds 'right' will more than likely vary from mine.
A very enjoyable weeks listening - great selection.


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## Carmina Banana

This is a brilliant piece. 
I have listened to the Arditti and Belcea and thought they were both excellent. The Arditti was especially gripping. It sounds like the Casals is something special so I will seek that out next. 
My first thought was: this is a heavily influenced by Bartok, but the more I listen to it, the more I simply hear an original voice with some overt references to Bartok. It goes way beyond "derivative." I haven't had time to study the piece but it reminds me of a great exploration of variation form like Bach's Goldberg or d minor Chaconne; the sheer delight of taking an idea and just working it to shreds!
There are a couple moments that make me laugh out loud. I don't know if that was intended. There must have been at least some tongue and cheek intended.


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## Knorf

I agree the Ligeti First Quartet goes way beyond "derivative." We can all hear Bartók as a stylistic point of departure, as so it goes with all young composers' earliest works, Beethoven included! But I think an incipient original voice here is heard very clearly.

And to think Ligeti composed it without any realistic hope of having it performed! Such was the persecution of original artists and writers and composers of all kinds, behind the Iron Curtain. And this included Bartók's music, ironically enough, with only a few of his most conventional works excepted. It was risking one's life to defy the authorities on creative matters; you wrote the most generically "accessible" pablum imaginable or you kept your work to yourself.

Side note for Carmina Banana: I think the humor is definitely intentional. A wicked, absurdist sense of humor amidst grief runs through many of Ligeti's mature works, culminating in the great opera _Le Grande Macabre._


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## Mandryka

Kurtag called it Bartok’s 7th quartet.


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## Knorf

And Hans von Bülow called Brahms' First Symphony "Beethoven's Tenth." 
🤷‍♂️


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## StevehamNY

A quick survey of the covers for this week's quartet produces a wide variety of reactions, starting with this album from the Jupiters, which is visually memorable but not quite grounded in sound biology (i.e. this is not quite how metamorphosis works in butterflies, guys):









And if you think that the LVB 131 and Ligeti's first is an unlikely combination, I'm pretty sure that the blurry lights on the Keller's album simulate the whiplash you get when you go from Ligetti right into the Barber Adagio:









As for the Hagen cover, my only reaction is the overwhelming anxiety that one of them is about to get severely injured or killed:









Finally, the backstory we learned here about the recurring nightmare Ligeti drew upon when composing this quartet is just the icing on this perfectly composed cover for the Casals. This is the image I will remember when I think about this quartet:


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, the Hagen cover reminded me of Saturday Night Fever. The scene when the guy falls off the bridge. I think it was the Verrazano.

I've been listening to the recording I have by the Arditti Quartet and enjoying it very much. Ligeti has said that Bartok's influence was very strong when he composed the quartet. As I said, it's more playful than Bartok and occasionally demonstrates a sense of humor. Whenever I hear the Andante tranquillo, I always think it's about to break out into the creepy slow movement of Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta.

Oh, and Kubrick used music from Bartok and Ligeti in The Shining and 2001.


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## Allegro Con Brio

It’s been another mentally busy week, so no listening time yet. Thankfully, next week things will slow down considerably for me. For now, housekeeping as we get into the next round: *Vicente, *if you are around, it’s your pick. Otherwise I’ll try and come up with something by the end of Sunday. Here’s how the order shapes up:


Vicente
Allegro Con Brio
Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1080
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


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## Merl

I've listened to the work many times now and although I had a mini-breakthrough with it during the week it's just not maintained my interest. I think it's OK but I don't think I'd listen to it again for enjoyment. As far as recordings go (of the ones I heard) the Casals, Hagen and Artemis were technically tremendous but I'm not going to blog my thoughts as I didn't really like the piece enough. However, if I wanted to return to it in the future I'd likely go with the Casals recording as that was the one I found most pleasing to my ears but, tbh, of the half dozen I played they were all very accomplished recordings. A case of an 'almost' for me but thanks for another one at the edge of my comfort zone, Philidor.


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## sbmonty

Have to admit, I struggled at first, but the first Ligeti Quartet is growing on me. I haven't listened to the second quartet yet this week. Still caught up with the Ben Johnston quartets. Both Kepler CDs arrived this week. Fascinating sound world. 
I think I'll end up with the Hagen and LaSalle's recordings of the Ligeti's works in the Ligeti - Clear or Cloudy boxset. The Parker and Keller are tempting though. Thanks for some inspired choices and great listening these past two rounds.


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## Knorf

A humble suggestion, Merl, my friend: ditch the comfort zone. Its just holding you back.


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## Enthusiast

There are some Ligeti works (the piano etudes, a couple of the concertos and the quartets) that have seemed to me, since I first heard them, to be very easy to like. Perhaps too easy? I was a little suspicious of them and I didn't find my enjoyment deepening. But it was almost always a pleasure to dip into one or other of them. Listening to the work several times in the space of a few days was a different experience and I think my appreciation has grown from the experience. I can hear the obvious links to Bartok but think they are superficial: I think at the heart of things Ligeti and Bartok were very different composers. 

I have four recordings - Casals, Hagen, Keller and Parker - and all seem good. I think I like the Hagen best, they seem to "catch the atmosphere" better (= "sound more authentic"?).


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## hammeredklavier

Philidor said:


> You know that Mozart reacted on Haydn’s op. 33 with his so-called “Haydn quartets”


There's no evidence other than the "pseudo-scientific" theories proposed by "Charlatan" Rosen and Landon. (The dedication letter of Mozart's "Haydn" quartets could just as have been written for Puchberg, by swapping the name "Haydn" with "Puchberg") Haydn was simply good at his way of doing things and Mozart was good at his. There were multitudes of quartet/quintet composers in Vienna and Austro-Germanic circles in the 1770s~80s.
One of Mozart's many acquaintances at the time - Ignaz von Beecke.
piano quintet in A minor (1770): watch?v=7FkThk41Rro
string quartet in C (circa 1780): watch?v=X29p_c9FMFg
Mozart didn't compose in this aesthetics:




You have to be specific in your argument when you make claims like that. (See Opinions vs less and more objective argumentation for reference) Even if Mozart did derive from certain elements (like the above) how much important they were to his language is up to subjective interpretation.
I mean, let's just talk about what's good about Haydn, but try not to use Mozart in attempts to prove it (or make unsubstantiated claims in the process).


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## Allegro Con Brio

What a fun, wacky, and wild ride this Ligeti quartet is! This just might be one of the first classical works I'd play for someone with ADD who has a hard time sitting through extended works—it seems like Ligeti comes up with a new idea every few seconds! Filled with the composer's signature playful humor and no-holds-barred creativity, this definitely belongs in my book with the etudes, piano and violin concerti, horn trio, and others as indispensable 20th century works. Not all Ligeti works for me, but at his best his rhythmic kicks (like really good, hard-driving jazz) and the sheer spontaneity of his language is irresistible. Though I couldn't connect with his more serious, deconstructionist 2nd quartet that we did way back when, this held my attention throughout and was a wonderfully coherent whole even though it essentially consists of a bunch of "moments musicaux" (reminded me of Kurtág's quartet in this and in some other ways). As has been pointed out, there is an equal balance of melodic, reflective moments; inventive passages that stretch the limits of the instruments, and some hilariously witty carnivalesque passages like the "Tempo di valse" which sounds like a bunch of beer-swilling musicians at a Viennese tavern trying to strike up a waltz. I never get the sensation that Ligeti is taking his art too seriously, trying to make "earth-shattering" musical statements; but in his best works this attitude produces a genuinely fresh amalgam of ideas that, far from being solipsistic or inaccessible, offers wonderful examples of the pleasures that the expanded sonic palette of contemporary music can offer to the open-eared listener.


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## Philidor

hammeredklavier said:


> Even if Mozart did derive from certain elements (like the above) how much important they were to his language is up to subjective interpretation.


Thank you for your feedback.

I don't think that I said that Mozart derived elements from Haydn. I only said that Motart reacted on Haydn's op. 33. And Haydn reacted on the quartets dedicated to him.

And I do think that neither of them reacted in an imitative way. Just the other way round: I think that both sharpened their way of composing and proceeded on their own way in view of the qualities of the colleague's composition. In no way I can recognize imitation, apart from some superficial qualitites.


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## Mandryka

For me the interesting question is whether Haydn responded to Mozart’s set of six quartets.


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## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> For me the interesting question is whether Haydn responded to Mozart’s set of six quartets.


Haydn Op.50 No.1/ii (watch?v=7osJCddGJSc&t=12m42s) uncannily reminds me of Mozart K.219/iii (watch?v=4mNJ43S1RIQ&t=20m15s) and Haydn Op.50 No.4/i (watch?v=7ZRunrrfje0&t=5m27s) reminds me of Mozart K.379/i (watch?v=YbHuK9Hjh_g&t=9m37s) in parts, although I'm inclined to think the similarities (of thematic material) are merely coincidental.


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## Philidor

Mandryka said:


> For me the interesting question is whether Haydn responded to Mozart’s set of six quartets.


Difficult. Of course, Haydn knew Mozart's so-called Haydn quartets.

How can we find some impact on op. 50? It is seeking in details:


op. 33 appears as a very concentrated group of quartets. The music is short and tight, no nice sideways to walk on.
in op. 50, we find more space for extension in the codetta of the exposition, in particular in op. 50 No. 2
the development sections of the first movements are longer than in op. 33 on average. This holds in particular for op. 50 No. 1, but also in Nos. 3, 4 and 6 the development sections are almost as long the exposition. This can't be found in op. 33, but in Mozart's Haydn quartets.
we find a fugue in the finale of No. 4, in Mozart's KV 387 we find a synthesis of fugue and sonata form. In op. 33, there was no fugue.
we find fugatos in the development sections of the first movements in No. 2 and No. 3, this can also be found in Mozart's Haydn quartets.

After all, it seems to end in some kind of circumstantial evidence. What is indisputable imho, that Haydn wrote a more "generous", exuberant music than in op. 33, and this reminds me clearly Mozart.


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## Philidor

Now again Ligeti's 16-string nightmare.

*György Ligeti: String Quartet No 1 "Métamorphoses nocturnes"*

Hagen Quartett

Cuarteto Casls

















The Hagen Quartet's recording was my favourite for this work before I got acquainted with the rendition of the Cuarteto Casals. Now both are in good company leading the field imho.

If I should express it in a single phrase: The Hagens are more on the fun and full throttle side, the Casals quartet show a little more of the nightmare impression. I like them both.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Alright, we haven't heard back from Vicente, so here is my pick...

*Edward Elgar: String Quartet in E Minor*

I'm departing a bit from my typical custom of choosing a work that I already know and love and picking something with which I am mostly unfamiliar for further exploration. We have had several weeks of modern/contemporary quartets, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, but I've decided to go back a bit to something more Romantic and straightforward because that's what I'm in the mood for this week to ease into the summer after the end of the school year (even though I had a couple contemporary quartets that I was potentially interested in, but there is always next time). This is probably one of the better-known quartets we haven't covered so far, and I'm a great fan of Elgar overall, so this seemed like an attractive choice. Honestly, I don't know why it seems fashionable to denigrate Elgar in some quarters. Yah, I think most would agree that the "patriotic" stuff can be cringe-y and that he sometimes falls prey to excess syrupy-ness, but pieces like the two symphonies (what glorious works!), Enigma Variations, and Piano Quintet strike me as evergreen poetic masterpieces. I have only listened to this quartet once, and it's been a while, so I look forward to living with it for a while. As is my custom, I link to the AllMusic synopsis and provide a brief quote as an appetizer:



AllMusic's Wayne Reisig said:


> The String Quartet in E minor was the second of Elgar's three chamber works to come from the autumnal idyll at the cottage in Sussex in 1918. In it he seemed to come nearest to the ideal of Brahms, whom he greatly admired. Although highly expressive, the mood is comparatively restrained, and thus design becomes paramount. This is in contrast with the subsequent Piano Quintet in which novelty of structure and intensity of emotion are conspicuous features...


My streaming app (Idagio) shows 7 recordings, but I know there are more. I'm also aware that Merl has already produced, as we might expect, _the _indispensable survey of the discography, which I shall be using to guide my listening. 

Happy listening, all!


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## Merl

I've nearly picked this quartet so many times that I decided to blog it almost a year ago. I already owned a fair number of recordings of it, all of which I enjoyed or loved. but this comparison helped me find another (unexpected one) that I've gone on to purchase and cherish.
The String Quartet was the first of three chamber works that he tackled in 1918 in the peaceful surroundings of Brinkwells, the country cottage that Lady Elgar had found for them in the depth of the Sussex countryside. After the delivery of a piano to Brinkwells in mid-August of that year, Elgar tempted fate a second time by putting aside the quartet, firstly to compose the Violin Sonata and then to make a start on the Piano Quintet . Fortunately, he resumed work on the quartet in October 1918, taking it forward to completion by the end of the year.

Elgar was an accomplished violinist, having played in various chamber ensembles in his youth. This quartet combines the skills thus acquired from those days with a high level of compositional inspiration. The outer movements display a vigorous dialogue between the four instruments, in contrast to the dream-like quality of the central piacevole. Lady Elgar likened this movement to "captured sunshine" and the allegro molto to the "galloping of stallions". This should not be read to imply a deeper programme for the work, simply that Elgar had captured the atmosphere and spirit of the woodlands around Brinkwells that were his inspiration for the work.

I'll he honest and say that I've never been much of an Elgar fan but the string quartet and piano quintet have always appealed to me a great deal. The beautiful piacevole 2nd movement, especially, is a huge favourite of mine and I can take quite a range of performances.


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## sbmonty

I'll start with the only recording I own. The Maggini Quartet, coupled with the Piano Quintet with Peter Donohoe, on Naxos. 
Nice choice!


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## Knorf

I'm a massive Elgar fan, and haven't heard this delightful quartet in ages, so many thanks for the selection!


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## starthrower

I noticed Ligeti No.1 hasn't been added to the contents. Just a reminder to whoever is posting this stuff. Thanks!


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## Art Rock

starthrower said:


> I noticed Ligeti No.1 hasn't been added to the contents. Just a reminder to whoever is posting this stuff. Thanks!


Thanks for the heads-up. I remember adding it, but I must have forgotten to press save. Corrected.


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## Philidor

Elgar - excellent choice. I agree that the three late chamber music works, created after the sinfonies and the oratorios, are special within the composer's oeuvre.

Aside from some sporadic trials, I neglected all three. So I am glad to have a reason to take a closer look to the string quartet! Thank you.

Recommendations for pleasant recordings are highly welcome, as always ... I will have to take a look at Merl's blog.


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## HerbertNorman

This is a work I really like! Actually one of the better pieces of chamber music by an English composer. I will be listening to the Naxos recording by the Maggini Quartet.

Elgar has a few gems and this is one of the imho. It's been a while since I have listened to it admittedly... 

From me too a big thanks for selecting this one ....


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I've also only listened to this quartet once before, and I really liked it. When I'm done with my Weinberg survey I'll listen to some of Merl's recs


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## Merl

If you get a chance check out the Coull Quartet reading on Hyperion (it's not on streaming, btw). Usually the Coull Quartet are bywords for safe, moderate and rather predictable performances but they went 'taps aff' (its a Glaswegian phrase - look it up) on this recording. One of those occasions where you expect one thing and then get something totally different. A very pleasant surprise.


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## Malx

This is not a quartet I am familiar with, I may well have heard it in the past but probably at a time when my interest in quartets was limited. This morning I have listened to the Sorrel Quartet recording via Qobuz and I get the sense that this is a piece that will blossom the more I listen to it.
I have found in the past Elgar's works have never really revealed themselves immediately to me but once they become friends they are friends for life.


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## Kreisler jr

I had heard the Elgar before; although I am not sure if more than once or twice (I have the Naxos disc with the Maggini). I now listened twice within a few days. It's a good piece but unlikely to become a great favorite. I guess my stance towards Elgar is a bit similar to that of many listeners towards Brahms: It's well crafted music often dominated by a particular kind of melancholy mood. There's more energy in the last movement but overall I think it could do with a bit more contrast. I'll give it a few more listens (fortunately, unlike his symphonies or violin concerto it is a reasonably short piece).


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## SearsPoncho

Elgar is my favorite British composer, however, my admiration for his music is entirely based on his orchestral output. I really have tried to like his chamber music, but it always leaves me slightly disappointed. Kreisler jr. summed it up well: "it could do with a bit more contrast." It's odd because I love Elgar and the string quartet (and piano quintet) genre, but it never quite turns the corner for me. Initially, I thought it had to do with having high expectations, but I don't believe that's the problem. Well, at least this has motivated me to play some of my orchestral recordings of Elgar's music.


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## Enthusiast

^ I feel much the same way about his chamber music. The quartet has some lovely passages in it but as a whole it doesn't do much for me. And although I prefer it I would say much the same about the piano quintet. They are works that disappoint me. Like you, SP, I largely rate Elgar for his orchestral works (a number of major masterpieces) and some of his vocal and choral works (Gerontius, Sea Pictures).


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## StevehamNY

I'm very glad I made the acquaintance of this quartet, even if I might not return to it that often. For some reason I can't quite identify, this album cover is going to stick in my mind the most:









Followed by this one (figures it's a Chandos):









Every other cover seems fairly forgettable for me, except this one which has actively made me lose the will to live:


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## Merl

What about the obligatory English countryside picture, Steve?


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> What about the obligatory English countryside picture, Steve?


Pleasant enough (I actually like the style), but will I remember it ten minutes from now?


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## Allegro Con Brio

I understand why some may not connect with this one. In fact, after further listening, I'm not sure I even like it as much as I originally thought I would! Don't get me wrong, I like it, but I definitely don't consider it among Elgar's masterpieces and would definitely rank it below Vaughan Williams, Arnold, Bax, and Britten in the British string quartet game. I was surprised by the general language of it as it seems a bit more amorphous, chromatic, and stereotypically late-Romantic than I remember any of Elgar's music being. This leads to an absence of particularly memorable moments and can make it seem a bit long-winded even for its average length, but I love the rustic melodies peppered throughout and especially how those are expanded in the concise, satisfying first movement—virtually all the thematic material is given in the first minute and the development of it is wonderfully organic. There are some parts of this first movement that almost sound a bit neo-Baroquey, with chorales, Reger-esque counterpoint, and circle of fifths progressions. The second movement brings to mind a romantic sunset boat trip on a river in the countryside, with the compound meter evoking the stroke of oars and the original, deeply affecting melody like a tender love song, building to a passionate climax before the sun slips below the horizon (I'm pretty sure I said something similar with the second movement of the Alwyn quartet we did earlier, but I'm sticking with it). And then the third movement, I'm afraid to say I find disappointing. There is a distinct lack of memorable ideas for me here, and Elgar just seems to spin out some compositional exercises for eight minutes because he feels like he needs to round off the inspired first two movements. I dunno, maybe I just haven't found the right recording for it. Speaking of which, the two I've heard so far—the Brodsky and Sorrel, both on Chandos, I thought underplayed the drama of Elgar's protean writing and both sounded strangely underpowered. Though the Brodsky definitely had better tone, the Sorrels are more convincing in bringing out the lyricism. However, I think the quartet could benefit from less of a "polite English" approach and that it should be milked more like a Borodin or Tchaikovsky quartet. None of Merl's top recommendations are on my streaming, but I will keep looking.


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, that first picture reminded me of one thing...
Robert Palmer - Addicted To Love (Official Music Video) - YouTube


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## Malx

Having said what I said earlier in the week, after listening to a few recordings - Reinhold, Brodsky (ASV) and initially the Sorrel via streaming I struggled a bit to get a handle on what Elgar was trying to achieve - it all seemed to be pleasant but lacking a vitality, in crude terms it lacked oomph.
I started with the Sorrel recording (attracted by the cover Steve!) but found that a little lacklustre, the Reinhold and Brodsky were a few steps in the right direction but when the Goldner recording I ordered on Merl's recommendation arrived this morning the quartet sounded so much better. It sounded more coherent, the sound quality is first rate so all of a sudden, for this listener at least, the work became much more acceptable. 
I suspect it won't become, at least at this point I don't think it will, a favourite but I'm happy enough to have added it to my collection.


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## Enthusiast

^ Sadly, the Goldner is the only one I have (it got many 5* reviews when it came out) and it still failed to ignite much enthusiasm for me so I guess I am a lost cause for this work. I firmly believe Elgar is a very great composer so I had been hoping for a lot more!


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## Chilham

I only have the Goldner too. My first time with the piece. Pleasant enough but can't help feeling they're not very "together" with it. Maybe that's the piece, not the quartet (or maybe it's me). Will listen again.


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## Carmina Banana

As usual, I feel like I don’t have time to really explore this piece, but from a couple casual listens, I am struck by a quality that pervades all of Elgar’s music: a way of manipulating musical conventions so they mimic our natural tendency as humans to stray from topic to topic and modulate through a variety of emotions. Watching the score as I listen, I can see how carefully he constructs the music so that it sounds fluid and spontaneous. I guess I am thinking mostly in rhythmic terms right now. It doesn’t fit neatly in a box such as 4/4 or 6/8. 

I am sure one could make a parallel to opera trends in the 19th and 20th centuries; many conventions were broken in order to convey natural speech patterns. At times, mostly in the slower more lyrical moments, I almost feel like Elgar is setting text that we don’t know about. 

Of course, there are movements like the last in which his style becomes more conventional. Sometimes he needs a good old-fashioned Allegro movement to get the job done and wrap things up.


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## Philidor

Captured sunshine - today with the Sorrels. Glad to have it on the shelf.










The more I am listening to op. 83, the more I think that Brahms' clarinet quintet could be a fine coupling. Autumnal colours and deep longing everywhere.


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## Merl

I really like the Elgar SQ but totally understand the slight reticence towards it. Totally agree that the 3rd movement is much weaker than those that preceed it but I love that very summery and romantic 2nd movement. Listening again, today, to my two faves on the car USB the Coull recording is now my slight favourite but the Goldner is a really fine performance too. The Coulls are more urgent and forceful (surprisingly enough considering how 'magnolia' some of their other recordings can be). Thanks for the pick this week even though I'd already reviewed it.

PS. If you haven't got this month's BBC music magazine the free Pavel Haas Quartet live disc is worth the outlay for a really, really impressive Janacek SQ1 and lovely Dvorak 13. There's also a decent Dvorak American too but it's a bit reverberant (still a very nice performance). I think Malx said the same thing in the Current Listening thread.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Next week's pick goes to *Mandryka. *


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## Philidor

I can't recognize so much summer in the 2nd movement, in spite of Lady Elgar's saying "captured sunshine". It's rather remembering summer than the summer itself. So I feel it is rather autumnal, even in the a little raspy recording of the Brodsky Quartet, which is just running. What do you think?


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## Mandryka

Here's this weeks choice.

J S Bach's _Art of Fugue_ is an anthology of short pieces of music which use the same simple theme. Bach wrote it in the last decade of his life. He published it, and then decided to extend it -- a task which was prematurely cut short by his death.

All these quartets of string instruments have recorded substantial parts of it:

Bernini
Delian
Delmé
Emerson
Fretwork
Italiano (members)
Julliard
Keller
Kölner violen consort
Les Voix Humaines
Modern
Musicarius
Phantasm
Portland
Quartetto Classico
Roth
Sit Fast
Soundiva

I hope you find it's interesting to listen to these ensembles try to play it.


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## SearsPoncho

Yep. This is one I've had on my short list since I joined the thread. It got bumped each time by another work. Given the density of material, I was going to try to assemble 4 or 5 Contrapunctus (what's the plural of that? i?) to mimic the movements of an average length string quartet, but I say, go for it all! For about a decade, I've been listening to it played on piano by Evgeni Koroliov, but I occasionally put on the Emerson Quartet's recording. The final, incomplete Fuga a 3 Soggetti is especially amazing, although that abrupt stop (incomplete) and silence is a little eerie. Good choice.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Wow!! To be perfectly honest, I had been wanting to nominate this, but feared it would cause too much of a controversy since it was not originally written for string quartet (the format itself was mostly relegated to home life in Bach's time before Haydn popularized it in the concert hall). Then again, it is the rare piece that is written in open score with no specification, so anything is really plausible. As Bach is my favorite composer by a very long shot (about half of my listening time is devoted to him), I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to this discussion! I do think the music lends itself to a pretty much any format, though I usually end up listening to it on piano (Sokolov or MacGregor) or Jordi Savall's wind/gamba ensemble. I can't say I've spent much time with quartet versions, though. I also must admit that this music can be supremely mystifying. It is the epitome of sheer abstraction, and it seems to exist on a different plane of time and contemplation. It is easy to dismiss it as a series of academic/conceptual exercises that were not meant to be performed. However, when listened to in a certain way and in the certain mood, it can be utterly transformative. I might go so far as to say it achieves a height that it is almost impossible for instrumental music to ever achieve again, but that is admittedly a bit of a subjective statement.


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> Yep. This is one I've had on my short list since I joined the thread. It got bumped each time by another work. Given the density of material, I was going to try to assemble 4 or 5 Contrapunctus (what's the plural of that? i?) to mimic the movements of an average length string quartet, but I say, go for it all! For about a decade, I've been listening to it played on piano by Evgeni Koroliov, but I occasionally put on the Emerson Quartet's recording. The final, incomplete Fuga a 3 Soggetti is especially amazing, although that abrupt stop (incomplete) and silence is a little eerie. Good choice.


I think anyone who enjoyed Ben Johnston’s quartets will also enjoy Michael Finnissy’s response for string quartet to the unfinished cpt.


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Wow!! To be perfectly honest, I had been wanting to nominate this, but feared it would cause too much of a controversy since it was not originally written for string quartet (the format itself was mostly relegated to home life in Bach's time before Haydn popularized it in the concert hall).


Me too. I suppose were are to focus on recordings of modern string quartets and not to venture into viol consorts or, God forbid, a piano?


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> Me too. I suppose were are to focus on recordings of modern string quartets and not to venture into viol consorts or, God forbid, a piano?


I'm not going any further till I hear Enthusiast say "String Quartets only. No pianos!" 





16:39


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## hammeredklavier

Any 4-part fugue can be performed be performed by a quartet though. I don't know what makes the Art of the Fugue special from all other 4-part fugues in that regard.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Haydn popularized it in the concert hall


Is there any actual evidence (from the 18th century) for that? Aside from the claims by people like Charlatan Rosen? Evidence that he meant them to be different from the baryton trios he similarly wrote for the Esterhazies, before 1785, and to be actual "concert" pieces under the concept understood by the later generations?
Ignaz von Beecke (1733-1803) string quartet in C (circa. 1780)








The slow movement of MH299 (in variations, @6:05) anticipates that of Mozart K.464





As for examples of quartets originally written in different instrumentation.
There are quartets by the Bach sons, and- this "quartet for violin, cor anglais, viola, doublebass" MH600


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## Philidor

hammeredklavier said:


> Any 4-part fugue can be performed be performed by a quartet though.


It goes without saying - that's not true, if the compass of the voices exceeds the possibilities of the string instruments.

In the 4-part fugue F minor of the Well-Tempered Clavier I, we have a B in the tenor (bar 4) and e and f in the alto in bar 7. Difficult for a string quartet.


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## Chilham

I have this:















Yes, a harpsichord chimes in every now and then, but it'll do for me for now. Looking forward to it.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> I'm not going any further till I hear Enthusiast say "String Quartets only. No pianos!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 16:39


But I like the piano best with this one!


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## Kreisler jr

I have around 10 recordings of the piece but none with string quartet only... I have one (Breuer, Arte Nova) where some are played by the Leipzig SQ and the Pommer/Capriccio has some played by a viol ensemble. 
AFAIK some fugues cannot be played by an SQ without either slight re-arranging/transposing or using a special viola with additional lower notes or sth. like that. 
There is by now also scholarly consensus that it is a keyboard work, but of course using a string quartet is not worse than using a viol consort, one is customary 100 years before, the other 100 years after Bach


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> But I like the piano best with this one!


I’d taken quite a lot of trouble to compile a discography of recordings for quartets of string instruments. It’s quite a substantial discography. Rightly or wrongly the string players must think they can make something worthwhile out of the music by performing it like this.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I have around 10 recordings of the piece but none with string quartet only... I have one (Breuer, Arte Nova) where some are played by the Leipzig SQ and the Pommer/Capriccio has some played by a viol ensemble.
> AFAIK some fugues cannot be played by an SQ without either slight re-arranging/transposing or using a special viola with additional lower notes or sth. like that.
> There is by now also scholarly consensus that it is a keyboard work, but of course using a string quartet is not worse than using a viol consort, one is customary 100 years before, the other 100 years after Bach


It’s complicated and here is not the right place to go into it I think. In this thread can we please limit ourselves to accepting the situation for what it is: professional, successful, highly regarded musicians have carried out the experiment of performing it as a quartet for strings. We can explore their research. Let’s do so!

There are other threads specifically on AoF where we can discuss its score’s playability (or not) on keyboards and other instruments, what the composer could have reasonably expected to happen to his score in performance etc. This thread is valuable because it is _a listener’s perspective, a music lover's perspective - _not a performer’s or a scholar’s.


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## Enthusiast

hammeredklavier said:


> There are quartets by the Bach sons, and-
> the harmonies of the slow movement of this "quartet for violin, cor anglais, viola, doublebass" MH600 @3:25
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The slow movement of MH299 (in variations, @6:05) anticipates that of Mozart K.464


There are, I know. But why are you responding to me with this information?


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## Enthusiast

Chilham said:


> I have this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a harpsichord chimes in every now and then, but it'll do for me for now. Looking forward to it.


I've got that CD but isn't it more than four string players in at least some of the fugues?


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## Malx

Mandryka said:


> It’s complicated and here is not the right place to go into it I think. In this thread can we please limit ourselves to accepting the situation for what it is: professional, successful, highly regarded musicians have carried out the experiment of performing it as a quartet for strings. We can explore their research. Let’s do so!
> 
> There are other threads specifically on AoF where we can discuss its score’s playability (or not) on keyboards and other instruments, what the composer could have reasonably expected to happen to his score in performance etc. This thread is valuable because it is _a listener’s perspective, a music lover's perspective - _not a performer’s or a scholar’s.


My sentiments exactly Mandryka, I only have the Emersons on my shelves but will try and stream some others from your list during the week.
Thanks for the taking the time to compile the list.


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## Chilham

Enthusiast said:


> I've got that CD but isn't it more than four string players in at least some of the fugues?


I had thought that but there's only four string players shown in the video, and only four credited, plus the harpsichordist on some of the pieces. Two violins, one viola, and a Cello, occasionally one violin, two violas, and a cello. The rest of the Brecon Baroque Ensemble don't seem to appear.


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## Mandryka

Chilham said:


> I had thought that but there's only four string players shown in the video, and only four credited, plus the harpsichordist on some of the pieces. Two violins, one viola, and a Cello, occasionally one violin, two violas, and a cello. The rest of the Brecon Baroque Ensemble don't seem to appear.


It is certainly not an attempt to perform it for a quartet of string instruments. Keyboard appears frequently, once as a solo instrument. Some cpti are played as duos or trios. The booklet essay by John Butt - which I guess is consistent with the performance philosophy - endorses a cyclic view of the music. So their instrumentions have surely been conceived with an eye to making perceptible the global cohesion and flow. By all means, enjoy it, but it is a bit _hors sujet_ I think.


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## SearsPoncho

Mandryka said:


> It’s complicated and here is not the right place to go into it I think. In this thread can we please limit ourselves to accepting the situation for what it is: professional, successful, highly regarded musicians have carried out the experiment of performing it as a quartet for strings. We can explore their research. Let’s do so!
> 
> There are other threads specifically on AoF where we can discuss its score’s playability (or not) on keyboards and other instruments, what the composer could have reasonably expected to happen to his score in performance etc. This thread is valuable because it is _a listener’s perspective, a music lover's perspective - _not a performer’s or a scholar’s.


Amen.


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## hammeredklavier

Enthusiast said:


> There are, I know. But why are you responding to me with this information?


I thought you were saying "why not quartet works originally written in different instrumentation, ie. quartets by the Bachs (but not quartet works with soloists. eg. flute quartets)?" I'll delete the quotation of your post.


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## hammeredklavier

Philidor said:


> It goes without saying - that's not true, if the compass of the voices exceeds the possibilities of the string instruments.
> In the 4-part fugue F minor of the Well-Tempered Clavier I, we have a B in the tenor (bar 4) and e and f in the alto in bar 7. Difficult for a string quartet.


Fair enough. There is also this, btw, K.546,




which is usually performed by a string quartet


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## Philidor

Today the counterfugues.

*Johann Sebastian Bach: Die Kunst der Fuge BWV 1080*
Contrapunctus V-VII

Keller Quartet

Emerson String Quartet

















Today I tried to listen these fugues while reading along in the score - much easier with the Emerson. The Keller Quartet is playing some parts at the audible limit which is arduous in my perspective, I could perceive some strettos only with the score. But easiest was Koroliov ...


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## Mandryka

Philidor said:


> Today the counterfugues.
> 
> *Johann Sebastian Bach: Die Kunst der Fuge BWV 1080*
> Contrapunctus V-VII
> 
> Keller Quartet
> 
> Emerson String Quartet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Today I tried to listen these fugues while reading along in the score - much easier with the Emerson. The Keller Quartet is playing some parts at the audible limit which is arduous in my perspective, I could perceive some strettos only with the score. But easiest was Koroliov ...


I wonder why Keller decided to make some parts hard to hear, and why Emerson didn’t. I haven’t heard Emerson, at least not recently. I heard Keller last week - I didn’t notice the audibility problem but I maybe wasn’t paying much attention. 

Everyone I suppose listenens in their own way, but I can’t stop myself from letting you know that I think following the score is a terrible idea. This is music, expressive and poetic music, not an academic exercise! Sure, follow the score if you’re interested in 18th century counterpoint, but if you’re interested in appreciating a musical performance as a work of artistic creation, then ditch the score I say.


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## Philidor

Mandryka said:


> veryone I suppose listenens in their own way, but I can’t stop myself from letting you know that I think following the score is a terrible idea. This is music, expressive and poetic music, not an academic exercise!


In my opinion, music always has structural and emotional aspects. Each neglecting of either is a loss in terms of an holistic perspective.

For the fugues in the AoF, the structural aspects might be a little weightier than on average. With the score, it was much easier for me to recognize the artistry and the craftsmanship than without. I reckoned the danger of overlooking the contrapunctual intricacies being smaller than without score. With the Winterreise, I am with you - without score. With the AoF, I think it is worth a trial.


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## hammeredklavier

Mandryka said:


> This is music, expressive and poetic music, not an academic exercise!


played by a string quartet rather than on a keyboard, the music sounds more like the former, less like the latter, to me.


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## Kreisler jr

I gave the Elgar Qt. (Maggini) a last spin; it didn't change my impression/reaction. It's a solid piece with what I tend to perceive as "Elgarian signature moods and sounds", especially in the first two movements, but, like almost all other Elgar, it's not going to become a favorite. (The symphonies are more varied and colorful but they are also long enough to be a bit tedious for me, so I don't quite share what other expressed further above, that this piece is (considerably?) less convincing than Elgar's orchestral music.)


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## Enthusiast

I've got two recordings of string quartets playing the Art of Fugue. The Emersons are sprightly but do sometimes seem to be trying to rush ahead. Maybe there are good reasons for this but it sounds to my simple ears as if their belief in the music is less than 100%. The Juilliard is more expressive and more the kind of Bach I grew up with but IMO a really good example of that style of playing. There is variety and they can be as sprightly as the Emersons (if a little more metrical) as well as expressive, sometimes deeply so (but never cloying), and are never dull. I enjoy the Juilliard recording a lot.

For a more continuously "treading lightly" approach I have in the past found myself going to a viol consort - Fretwork - rather than the Emersons. But I will probably come back with a bit more on viol recording: I have Les Voix Humaines and Phantasm as well as Fretwork.


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## Kreisler jr

I listened up to cp 9 or 10 with the Emersons on youtube. I liked them quite a bit in the first bunch of fugues, up to #5 or so. But their rather "neutral", straightforward approach seems a bit undercharacterized in the following bunch, like my favorite cp, 8, which I also found a bit too fast. I wouldn't mind this in principle but this also seems to lead to a bit of "sameness", both within the multi-themed pieces like cp 8 and when listening to them in sequence. 
In some comments I have seen other AoF recordings described as unduly "plaintive" or "lugubrious" (for the Keller Q. I found comments both for too plaintive and too fast...) and I recall also finding some recordings very slow in some fugues (IIRC Koroliov is very slow in one of the "simpler" ones, like #1 and Bergel (with orchestra) is slow throughout). The Emersons are more the opposite, lively, pleasant to listen to but a bit "cool".


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I listened up to cp 9 or 10 with the Emersons on youtube. I liked them quite a bit in the first bunch of fugues, up to #5 or so. But their rather "neutral", straightforward approach seems a bit undercharacterized in the following bunch, like my favorite cp, 8, which I also found a bit too fast. I wouldn't mind this in principle but this also seems to lead to a bit of "sameness", both within the multi-themed pieces like cp 8 and when listening to them in sequence.
> In some comments I have seen other AoF recordings described as unduly "plaintive" or "lugubrious" (for the Keller Q. I found comments both for too plaintive and too fast...) and I recall also finding some recordings very slow in some fugues (IIRC Koroliov is very slow in one of the "simpler" ones, like #1 and Bergel (with orchestra) is slow throughout). The Emersons are more the opposite, lively, pleasant to listen to but a bit "cool".


Cpti 8, 9 and 10 may well be part of a 12 movement concert cycle conceived and ordered for performance, written around 1742. This is what Pieter Dirksen believes and I've seen an outline, a sketch, of why he came to that view, I can let you have it if you want.

I guess things like tempo and mood really could be thought about in terms of this cycle. I mean, we can think about how it works as a listening experience -- all the first 12 together rather like all the Biber rosary sonatas together, or Haydn’s 7 Last Words or maybe even the Pavans and Galliards in Byrd’s My Ladie Nevelle’s book and The WF Bach polonaises. My point is that performance cycles were not unheard of in 18th and 17th century music.


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> I've got two recordings of string quartets playing the Art of Fugue. The Emersons are sprightly but do sometimes seem to be trying to rush ahead. Maybe there are good reasons for this but it sounds to my simple ears as if their belief in the music is less than 100%. The Juilliard is more expressive and more the kind of Bach I grew up with but IMO a really good example of that style of playing. There is variety and they can be as sprightly as the Emersons (if a little more metrical) as well as expressive, sometimes deeply so (but never cloying), and are never dull. I enjoy the Juilliard recording a lot.
> 
> For a more continuously "treading lightly" approach I have in the past found myself going to a viol consort - Fretwork - rather than the Emersons. But I will probably come back with a bit more on viol recording: I have Les Voix Humaines and Phantasm as well as Fretwork.


When I was going through this stuff I remember that there was a lot of variation in the approaches, but that somehow none of them are specially imaginative with the articulation or counterpoint. However I do think that there's something very distinctive going on with Les Voix Humaines. It was after revisiting their recording that I decided to include in my list for here recordings for viol string quartets as well as "Haydn" type string quartets. 

I should say that I only discovered Bernini a few days ago, so the above comment may not do them justice!


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## Mandryka

This one seems valuable not least for the sweet sound, SOTA sound I'd say, and the fluid and Arcadian transcription -- long and lyrical phrases making for agreeable and simple melodies. It's like we're hearing something by Dvorak. Dvorak seems spot on actually, it's melodic and somehow ear wormy and catchy like those Dvorak quartets, and pastoral too. It’s even got like, nostalgic, tearful slow movements! All played with a nice touch of vibrato of course. This is a good one for someone who feels comfortable with Brahms and people like that, but who is a bit uncomfortable with the idea of music from the first half of the 18th century. Quite a feat on Simpson's part to have done this to AoF. I think feat is the word . . .


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## SearsPoncho

I have two recordings of the AoF: Koroliov on piano and the Emerson String Quartet. I almost always play the Koroliov recording. Furthermore, I usually play only 3 fugues at a time, which is what I also do for the WTC. I decided to put on the Emersons and listen to the entire thing in one shot. I was able to do it with only 2 or 3 interruptions from the female members of Casa SP. I can describe the experience, and what an experience it was, in three stages. This is a visceral reaction, so forgive me for the oversimplification.

Stage I - *Dolce*: The sweet cantabile of the string instruments is immediately appealing. Why don't I listen to this string quartet version more? I'm almost overwhelmed by the beauty. I'm not sure why I choose Koroliov over the Emersons. Furthermore, four musicians makes it easier to follow the polyphony, right? Hmmm...more on that later.

Stage II - *Boredom*: About one third of the way through, it's starting to sound like a computer. Shouldn't this have more contrast of timbre and texture than Koroliov. It's all starting to sound the same. Monochromatic. Why is Koroliov much more compelling? More contrasts and musicality. He's one dude; Emersons are four. I actually started to imagine Stokowski yelling at them in that accent of indeterminate origin, "More intensity! You know, it's not criminal to occasionally use dynamics! More contrast! I made a pretty good career out of that." 

Stage III: *Let Go and Surrender*: For the last third, I question why I'm listening to this as if it was Chopin or Rachmaninov. It's not. Accept it for what it is. In other words, let go of any preconceptions or expectations and surrender to what the music is doing. It's going on. Right now. Listen. It's measure after measure of genius. It sounds mesmerizing and has a hypnotic hold one me. _This next part is 100% wrong, but just humor me: _This is kind of like what minimalism wishes it could be on it's best day. (I know, I know. That's wrong. But in the moment, the thought pops up)


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## Enthusiast

^ I seem to be able to listen to the whole thing several times in a session! I won't claim I am always concentrating but in some recordings it may be surprising how often I do get sucked in to the sound or the pretty patterns. I am very much in your Stage III.


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> I have two recordings of the AoF: Koroliov on piano and the Emerson String Quartet. I almost always play the Koroliov recording. Furthermore, I usually play only 3 fugues at a time, which is what I also do for the WTC. I decided to put on the Emersons and listen to the entire thing in one shot. I was able to do it with only 2 or 3 interruptions from the female members of Casa SP. I can describe the experience, and what an experience it was, in three stages. This is a visceral reaction, so forgive me for the oversimplification.
> 
> Stage I - *Dolce*: The sweet cantabile of the string instruments is immediately appealing. Why don't I listen to this string quartet version more? I'm almost overwhelmed by the beauty. I'm not sure why I choose Koroliov over the Emersons. Furthermore, four musicians makes it easier to follow the polyphony, right? Hmmm...more on that later.
> 
> Stage II - *Boredom*: About one third of the way through, it's starting to sound like a computer. Shouldn't this have more contrast of timbre and texture than Koroliov. It's all starting to sound the same. Monochromatic. Why is Koroliov much more compelling? More contrasts and musicality. He's one dude; Emersons are four. I actually started to imagine Stokowski yelling at them in that accent of indeterminate origin, "More intensity! You know, it's not criminal to occasionally use dynamics! More contrast! I made a pretty good career out of that."
> 
> Stage III: *Let Go and Surrender*: For the last third, I question why I'm listening to this as if it was Chopin or Rachmaninov. It's not. Accept it for what it is. In other words, let go of any preconceptions or expectations and surrender to what the music is doing. It's going on. Right now. Listen. It's measure after measure of genius. It sounds mesmerizing and has a hypnotic hold one me. _This next part is 100% wrong, but just humor me: _This is kind of like what minimalism wishes it could be on it's best day. (I know, I know. That's wrong. But in the moment, the thought pops up)


So if some people are right, only the fist twelve pieces on the Emerson CD are a concert cycle. The rest are later additions, made when Bach was turning the work into a didactic anthology. This could explain stage 2. 

As far as stage 3 is concerned, we've all learned from Cage that the noise of the traffic on a street in New York can sound like amazing music.


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## Philidor

SearsPoncho said:


> Stage III: *Let Go and Surrender*: For the last third, I question why I'm listening to this as if it was Chopin or Rachmaninov. It's not. Accept it for what it is. In other words, let go of any preconceptions or expectations and surrender to what the music is doing. It's going on. Right now. Listen. It's measure after measure of genius. It sounds mesmerizing and has a hypnotic hold one me. _This next part is 100% wrong, but just humor me: _This is kind of like what minimalism wishes it could be on it's best day. (I know, I know. That's wrong. But in the moment, the thought pops up)


Maybe someone could propose Morton Feldman's second string quartet these weeks. Imho, it perfectly fits stage III.


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## Philidor

Today I enjoyed the double and triple fugues. Bach left the quadruple unfinished, so did the Reds.

*Johann Sebastian Bach: Die Kunst der Fuge BWV 1080*
Contrapunctus VIII-XI

Keller Quartet

Emerson String Quartet

















Same impression as with V-VII: Much clearer with the Emersons, but the invest of a little more time could have helped the music to unfold all its beauty.


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## Mandryka

Here’s one which is based on the work of Roy Harris, a symphonist with his feet firmly in the mainstream classical music world, like the Delmé Quartet’s Robert Simpson attempt. The Portland Quartet also has a lot of character and is a satisfying poetic, musical, experience. Warm and fuzzy, of course, rather than didactic. It feels like a cycle to me. The Portland have a warm and fuzzy old fashioned sound to match.


It’s becoming clear that real experienced composers are a safe pair of hands when it comes to making sense of this music (think Webern and opfer.) Delmé and Portland may well be my most interesting discoveries of this music played by a Haydn type quartet, at least from the point of view of making the whole sequence of cpti into a coherent and engaging listener experience.


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## StevehamNY

Philidor said:


> Maybe someone could propose Morton Feldman's second string quartet these weeks. Imho, it perfectly fits stage III.


Uncle Morty's SQII has been mentioned here now and then, mostly as an idle threat. I have both the 6-hour Flux version and the 5-hour Ives set (for when I want to hear it played at breakneck speed). Personally, I think we all need to meet somewhere central and hear a live performance together. I think that would be an excellent bonding experience.


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## Carmina Banana

I am bouncing around between three recordings. 

The Keller quartet has placed a blurry filter over the whole work, kind of like they don’t want us to hear the actual notes. It’s pretty but I want to hear the notes.

The Delian have a light feathery touch throughout. They must have gotten together and decided they need a totally different sound for Bach. It sounds limp and uninterested. 

The Emerson, a group that sometimes rubs me the wrong way, is perfect for me. They present the music clearly and with an intelligent awareness of what should be in the forefront and what needs to recede slightly. The important thing for me is clarity. I can hear everything. 

I have been thinking about SearsPoncho’s remarks. There is much in Bach that demands expressive, sensitive playing or singing. But there is also magic in listening to an organ performance with limited registration changes in which the expression comes more from articulation and rhythm rather than dynamics. I think Bach makes different demands on the performer in terms of expression, but an expressionless performance of Bach is wrong, wrong, wrong.


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## Mandryka

Carmina Banana said:


> The Delian have a light feathery touch throughout. They must have gotten together and decided they need a totally different sound for Bach. It sounds limp and uninterested.



The Delian sonority is similar to the bowing technique developed for viol by Paulo Pandolfo. Pandolfo lightly touches the strings to produce an agitated and timid sound, which seems to be fleeing from you. In fact, I like the Delian very much, not just that tone but also the rhythms and the articulation. I just find that approach very involving and intriguing, partly because you have to focus more to catch the music. They tend to whisper and murmur rather than to sing forth. I can’t think of a Haydn type quartet version I like more. I would certainly say that it needs to be tried, it’s unexpected and original.


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## Malx

I have listened to my Emerson Quartet recording during the week but have to say that I wasn't inspired to try others. I guess that the very reason that many love Bach in the multitude of different styles he composed - his technical prowess, works against me in a string quartet format.
Don't get me wrong I can understand and admire the skill involved and indeed in small sections the soundworld created but it doesn't stir anything in me when I'm listening. I will gladly accept the fault lies with me, but when I have been looking to select music to listen to this week I couldn't bring myself to investigate further.
Sorry Mandryka.


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## Kreisler jr

I think it can be problematic to approach the AoF as one large piece instead of a cycle/collection and even worse to always start listening from the beginning. Many will be bored by the time they reach the 5th or 6th contrapunctus. It is far more promising to pick one or three pieces and not always the same ones, and then stop and listen to something else. I'd especially recommend the ones like 8 or 11 with other themes dominating.
As for string quartet, I think it works fine for SQ but I don't think this ensemble is particularly relevatory compared to mixed chamber, large scale orchestral or keyboard interpretation.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> As for string quartet, I think it works fine for SQ but I don't think this ensemble is particularly relevatory compared . . keyboard interpretation.


Yes I agree with my snipped version of what you said.

I don't think it's because of anything intrinsic to Haydn type string quartet ensembles. It is more because of the unimaginativeness of the quartet players compared with the harpsichordists, organists and clavichord players. So many of them have no idea how to make the counterpoint come alive, or how to use expressive embellishments.


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## Mandryka

Malx said:


> I have listened to my Emerson Quartet recording during the week but have to say that I wasn't inspired to try others. I guess that the very reason that many love Bach in the multitude of different styles he composed - his technical prowess, works against me in a string quartet format.
> Don't get me wrong I can understand and admire the skill involved and indeed in small sections the soundworld created but it doesn't stir anything in me when I'm listening. I will gladly accept the fault lies with me, but when I have been looking to select music to listen to this week I couldn't bring myself to investigate further.
> Sorry Mandryka.


It is many years since I last heard the Emerson recording, but I remember feeling the same way as you about it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Of all works this is one of the most difficult to write about. The music seems to me impenetrably mysterious, dwelling in a different realm. I am, by turns, awed, baffled, impatient, elevated, and inspired by this music. I think the basis for these qualities is its very conceptual nature. I heard one commentator say that the _Art of Fugue _is Bach's equivalent of a treatise by Kepler or Newton, explaining his beliefs about how the world works and the patterns of nature. That may be hyperbole, but the austere Euclidean beauty seems to demand such an explanation. I think of the blind Bach in his last days, knowing full well that his style had long been considered out of date in the world of the Enlightenment, knowing that even his own children were composing in a simplified style and that he was the last hope to preserve the high polyphonic tradition. So he offered these pieces to tell posterity about what he believed was the truest and most accomplished type of music. I have yet to listen to the entire thing in one go because I don't detect a terrible amount of variety between the pieces, and frankly it just feels a bit like over-gorging—my mind gets tired about a quarter of the way in. And I don't think it was meant to be such at all. An integral part of the listening experience is getting familiar enough with Bach's materials so that even the slightest alterations sound revelatory. I am still training myself to reach that level of appreciation, but for now, all that I know is that music capable of producing such an ineffable sense of mystery must be worth studying.

I find that, when performed on string quartet, the clarity of the lines becomes paramount, allowing us to pick up on every nuance of every strand. However, I don't feel as if any of the recordings I heard truly unlocked all the expressive potentialities. Rigorous and brilliant as Bach is, at the heart of his craft is sensuousness and piercing pathos, and this work is no exception. I think ensembles should be more daring in their approach and add some rubato, portamento, etc. to bring out the aching lyricism that so often bubbles under the surface. Anachronistic, yes, but so is playing it on a string quartet at all. That said, I liked the Juilliard most of the bits and pieces that I compared from four recordings. Soft-edged tone and sensitive phrasing that seems to view the music as poetry above all else, although, as with all recordings, some movements were taken at tempi with which I disagreed in an attempt to create variety. They are smooth and perhaps a bit Romantic but not syrupy. Next would be the Emerson, who bring their signature angular muscularity and surgical precision to the table. This allows the polyphony to really bloom magnificently, but I found myself wishing for some lyrical repose rather than the very brusque, Germanic exegesis which the Emersons offer. Overall, however, it's a successful and impressive achievement due to the sheer commitment and excitement of the playing that would make for an excellent concert program. The two others I sampled: the Keller and Delian, I both found mostly prosaic and workaday; the former straight-faced and again too fast, the latter, as CB describes them, "limp" and not incisive. Ultimately I think I will return more to keyboard versions and other ensembles such as Savall, Marriner, and Canadian Brass; which are all IMO capable of offering more textural and timbral variety to sustain the project, but I would gladly revisit the Juilliard and Emerson.

BTW where has our friend Bwv 1080 been lately? I have a feeling he would have been rather excited about this week's selection...


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Of all works this is one of the most difficult to write about. The music seems to me impenetrably mysterious, dwelling in a different realm. I am, by turns, awed, baffled, impatient, elevated, and inspired by this music. I think the basis for these qualities is its very conceptual nature. I heard one commentator say that the _Art of Fugue _is Bach's equivalent of a treatise by Kepler or Newton, explaining his beliefs about how the world works and the patterns of nature. That may be hyperbole, but the austere Euclidean beauty seems to demand such an explanation. I think of the blind Bach in his last days, knowing full well that his style had long been considered out of date in the world of the Enlightenment, knowing that even his own children were composing in a simplified style and that he was the last hope to preserve the high polyphonic tradition. So he offered these pieces to tell posterity about what he believed was the truest and most accomplished type of music. I have yet to listen to the entire thing in one go because I don't detect a terrible amount of variety between the pieces, and frankly it just feels a bit like over-gorging—my mind gets tired about a quarter of the way in. And I don't think it was meant to be such at all. An integral part of the listening experience is getting familiar enough with Bach's materials so that even the slightest alterations sound revelatory. I am still training myself to reach that level of appreciation, but for now, all that I know is that music capable of producing such an ineffable sense of mystery must be worth studying.


I think there is a real knack to listening to imitative counterpoint. The staple "classical music" diet is so strongly oriented around melody and harmony, even in composers who were interested in polyphonic textures like Mahler. We have developed the ear to hear melodic variety, and timbral variety, but not the sort of variety in sets of canons. I remember being completely confused by what to do with imitation based music, while sensing that there was something interesting going on, and then having a sort of breakthrough, a eureka moment, listening to some Sweelinck fantasias played by Bob van Asperen. 

By the way, be wary of thinking too much about blind Bach on his death bed writing this stuff: at least half of it comes from more than eight years before he died.


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## Philidor

Mandryka said:


> I think there is a real knack to listening to imitative counterpoint. The staple "classical music" diet is so strongly oriented around melody and harmony, even in composers who were interested in polyphonic textures like Mahler. We have developed the ear to hear melodic variety, and timbral variety, but not the sort of variety in sets of canons.


Sorry, I cannot agree. In many well-known symphonies such as Mozart 41 or Beethoven 9 or Mendelssohn 2 or Brahms 4 or Bruckner 5 there is so much structure and counterpoint that you are missing half of it if you're reduced to melody and harmony and timbre ... I cannot agree that "we have developed the ear to hear melodic variety, and timbral variety".

Maybe I am biased being an organist grown up with lots of fugues between Buxtehude and Reger, but there are fugues or imitations everywhere ... Bach's AoF just give a concentration on this aspect, more or less the same way as Schoenberg's "Farben" in op. 16. That's all.


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## Burbage

It's Friday and, though I've been away from the keyboard for a while (lumbago, thank you for your interest, and no, I won't be doing a crowdfunder), it seems you've been able to annoy yourselves without any help from me, so that's nice.

Dispensible though I may be, I have been listening along, regardless. I enjoyed the Ligeti very much, though I'm not sure if he ever did find his own voice, save as a wryly humorous Messiaen. Still, he looked for inspiration in music itself, rather than birdsongs or tram tickets, and I suspect he played the harmonica, so there are hooks I can cling to and, possibly, understand.

As for the Elgar, that's long been a favourite. As quartets go, it's lushly symphonic, but manages to be personal, too, swapping bombast for playful romanticism, with nothing hammered home or blarted out. Old-fashionedish it might have been, but at a time when Saint-Saens was still alive and working, that seems a slightly philosophical debate, and I prefer to think of them both (and Ligeti) in railway terms, as main-line rather than branch (or siding).

And so to Art of Fugue, or The Art of The Fugue, which is a lovely set of compositional exercises if you like that sort of thing. Personally, I don't like them all that much, much as I don't go a bundle on Beethoven's Grosse Fuge. I guess they're a bit like those Mandelbrot images that were once so popularly intriguing, until their time of intrigue passed. What made them interesting was the way they were made, how apparently simple mathematical ingredients could unfold in such intricate ways. But once that astonishment had faded and looking at them became a process of just looking, then they lost much of their appeal. They're still lovely things to look at, but there are other things to look at, too, not all of which remind us quite so sharply of our circular descent to insignificance through the shattered shards of our inevitably foreshortened labours.

Obviously TAOTF isn't necessarily a string quartet (or a quartet at all), and I find myself, after a bit of a surfeit of Emerson, Delian and Delme, preferring Savall. That's because the timbral blend of the string quartet, which can be beautifully impressionistic and plays an important part in most of the repertoire, is not much help in this, where I feel the need for audibly separate lines. That's certainly my own fault (as Mandryka hints - Philidor's defence may work for organists, who presumably have ears practiced at unmuddying their textures, but not for me), and I do sometimes wonder why I can't just sit back and just appreciate the same phrase being ingeniously laundered a few hundred times, but, given the week ended up with me listening to a not-a-quartet played by not-a-quartet, I hope nobody minds if I rule myself _hors de combat_ for just a little longer.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Burbage said:


> Obviously TAOTF isn't necessarily a string quartet (or a quartet at all), and I find myself, after a bit of a surfeit of Emerson, Delian and Delme, preferring Savall. That's because the timbral blend of the string quartet, which can be beautifully impressionistic and plays an important part in most of the repertoire, is not much help in this, where I feel the need for audibly separate lines. That's certainly my own fault (as Mandryka hints - Philidor's defence may work for organists, who presumably have ears practiced at unmuddying their textures, but not for me), and I do sometimes wonder why I can't just sit back and just appreciate the same phrase being ingeniously laundered a few hundred times, but, given the week ended up with me listening to a not-a-quartet played by not-a-quartet, I hope nobody minds if I rule myself _hors de combat_ for just a little longer.


"The same phrase being ingeniously laundered a few hundred times." That's a good way of explaining how it can sound, and which can be a barrier to sustained attention. Someone (I think SP) mentioned earlier that this is the kind of music that minimalism strives to achieve, and at first this sounds odd because Bach is about the polar opposite of minimalism. But there is an incredibly meditative element to the Art of Fugue, as I believe there is in the Goldbergs as well (similar idea of over an hour of music in the same key). One gets the sensation that Bach is trying to mimic the music of the spheres. Yeah, that sounds corny. I don't know if I have any more adequate words to describe the music as I remain conflicted about my reaction to it. But your comments about preferring a different timbral blend reminded me that I also listened to some of the Fretwork recording, which isn't really a "string quartet," but it's a quartet of strings (gambas) and I really like it. I've always appreciated the sharp, tangy sound of the gamba and it sounds suitably otherworldly and archaic. If I recall, the players on that recording adopt fairly leisurely tempi too, which I prefer in this work. 

I hope that *Josquin13 *is still around and ready to make our next pick. Current schedule:

Josquin13
Bwv 1080
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> "The same phrase being ingeniously laundered a few hundred times." That's a good way of explaining how it can sound, and which can be a barrier to sustained attention. Someone (I think SP) mentioned earlier that this is the kind of music that minimalism strives to achieve, and at first this sounds odd because Bach is about the polar opposite of minimalism. But there is an incredibly meditative element to the Art of Fugue, as I believe there is in the Goldbergs as well (similar idea of over an hour of music in the same key). One gets the sensation that Bach is trying to mimic the music of the spheres. Yeah, that sounds corny. I don't know if I have any more adequate words to describe the music as I remain conflicted about my reaction to it. But your comments about preferring a different timbral blend reminded me that I also listened to some of the Fretwork recording, which isn't really a "string quartet," but it's a quartet of strings (gambas) and I really like it. I've always appreciated the sharp, tangy sound of the gamba and it sounds suitably otherworldly and archaic. If I recall, the players on that recording adopt fairly leisurely tempi too, which I prefer in this work.
> 
> I hope that *Josquin13 *is still around and ready to make our next pick.


He's still around. If you haven't already done so, send him a quick PM, ACB.


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## Philidor

Burbage said:


> Obviously TAOTF isn't necessarily a string quartet (or a quartet at all), and I find myself, after a bit of a surfeit of Emerson, Delian and Delme, preferring Savall. That's because the timbral blend of the string quartet, which can be beautifully impressionistic and plays an important part in most of the repertoire, is not much help in this, where I feel the need for audibly separate lines. That's certainly my own fault (as Mandryka hints - Philidor's defence may work for organists, who presumably have ears practiced at unmuddying their textures, but not for me), and I do sometimes wonder why I can't just sit back and just appreciate the same phrase being ingeniously laundered a few hundred times, but, given the week ended up with me listening to a not-a-quartet played by not-a-quartet, I hope nobody minds if I rule myself _hors de combat_ for just a little longer.





Allegro Con Brio said:


> "The same phrase being ingeniously laundered a few hundred times." That's a good way of explaining how it can sound, and which can be a barrier to sustained attention. Someone (I think SP) mentioned earlier that this is the kind of music that minimalism strives to achieve, and at first this sounds odd because Bach is about the polar opposite of minimalism. But there is an incredibly meditative element to the Art of Fugue,


I am trying to see your points.

However, if I don't like a fugue for its contrapuntal artistry, for what should I like it?

To my mind, bringing impressionism, minimalism, meditative aspects etc. etc. in the first place is like appreciating a car for its colour. Yes, you can like the colour, but that's not the main thing with a car (unless you're driving a Ferrari).

The epiphenomena might be lovely and interesting, I like the fugue in G major in the WTC I for its impetus, for its joy of playing, I like the fugue in B minor in the WTC I for its passion-like appearance (and its chromaticism as one reason behind), such fugues with secondary aspects in the first row exist with Bach (imho), but in the AoF, it is (imho) clearly about the demonstration of musical combinatorics: How to combine the subjects with themselves in a convincing manner, delivering a satisfying piece of music in the end? And the satisfaction does not come from special timbres and colours, from intricate combinations of instruments, from dramatic changes such as a loud dissonant trombone chord in the middle of a lament from the cor anglais, it just evolves from inner logic without thimblerig effects. The notes themselves are the piece, and the climaxes and the culminations are the moments where the art of combinatorics comes to the maximum.

Mahler stated that the best in music was not written in the score (don't know the "official" translation - _Das Beste in der Musik steht nicht in den Noten)_, with the AoF I think it is exactly the other way round, antipodal: The notes are the best of the music, and the notes themselves and the relations between them are the one and only thing fundamental and essential for these pieces.

If you are talking about meditating with the AoF in terms of amalgamating yourself with the music and the structural proceeding, being fully focussed on what's happening, I am with you. If it's in terms of nodding off, I am not ... you're just missing the best. - Just my 5 cts.


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## Kreisler jr

I doubt such combinatorics make good music in general. Otherwise we would love and value Simon "6000 fugues" Sechter or at least Reger or Sorabji or a dozen of medieval/renaissance composers as much as Bach/AoF. 
OTOH it seems facetious to claim that AoF is attractive music *in spite" of brilliant combinatorics and I'd probably agree that it is a part of its quality But I doubt it is the main aspect, otherwise other combinatorial music should be far more highly regarded. I think the "unity in variety" is more general and more important overall.

I also don't like AoF mainly as a meditative piece. _Some_ of the fugues are a bit like that, others aren't at all. As I wrote further above, I prefer that contrasts are brought out well, e.g. the "jaunty" cp 6 "alla Francese", the expressive cp 8 or 11, the "motoric" cp 13 and 9 (with the main theme as cantus firmus). Briefly, the unity is quite obvious in any case, so I wish for the variety to be stressed.
I bet one can do this with a string quartet/ensemble (should be not harder to be variable than with a harpsichord or piano), the only one I listened to this week, the Emerson are not bad, but not very varied either... (I eventually listened to bits and pieces of several other recordings, Sokolov/piano and Pommer...)


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## Josquin13

ACB & Merl, & everyone else, greetings! Yes, I'm still around, but I've yet to get my infernal computer keyboard fixed, so posting remains tedious. However, I am ready with a SQ selection for next week, so expect it some time later today.

As for this past week, I listened to the Emerson Quartet on You Tube. Their AOF recording was new to me. The only string quartet version that I had previously heard was by the Keller Quartet on ECM. However, I hadn't played that disc in years, so I don't remember the performance, which may say something. 

Among the various instrumental approaches to Bach's The Art of the Fugue, I listen mostly to the keyboard recordings; especially those by Hans Petermandl: 



, and Tatiana Nikolayeva (from 1970) on piano (both are great in this music!!!): 



, but also to Edward Aldwell, Ivo Janssen, Zoltan Kocsis & most recently Joanna MacGregor, etc. While on the harpsichord, I most enjoy the recordings by Christian Rieger, Fabio Bonizzoni: 



, Matteo Messori, & Gustav Leonhardt.

I also occasionally listen to the instrumental versions, too: especially the excellent fairly recent recording by the Akademie für Alte Musik Berlin on Harmonia Mundi: 



, as well as to Musica Antiqua Koln's older Archiv recording, and one of the very first LP recordings I ever bought, Sir Neville Marriner & the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields' version for Philips (which I still have a soft spot for, as it was the first AOF that I imprinted on when classical music was entirely new to me. In fact, I can recall how, on my first listening, I got upset when the music abruptly ended on side four, thinking that my newly bought LP was defective & that I'd have to take it back to the record shop, that is, before I read the program notes).

For me, the section in The Art of the Fugue from the Contrapunctus No. 12a to where the music suddenly ends in the Contrapunctus No. 14 is one of the high points of Western music: 



. Bach's inventiveness is astonishing. With the exception of several pre-Baroque composers, such as Josquin Desprez, Johannes Ockeghem, & Guillaume Dufay, I don't feel that there are any post-Baroque composers that can equal what Bach does here in this music. Not even Beethoven in his Late Quartets, who was of course strongly influenced by Bach fugues in those works.

The Emersons play Contrapunctus 12a to Contrapunctus 14 brilliantly, both from a technical standpoint & an interpretative one. & I thought it helped enormously that the ensemble is limited to just four players, as the larger ensembles can sometimes get bogged down in these sections, & particularly the non-period ones. The music is too lithe & the parts too varied & multi-directional for the larger ensembles to be able to play with the same kind of liberty, nimbleness, freedom, & contrapuntal clarity that the Emersons achieve as a 4 member ensemble. To my ears, their playing & technical address sounds totally unencumbered & yet precise. Which surely is exactly what is needed in order to do justice to such extraordinary, complex fugal writing; rather than some larger, more cumbersome ensemble playing this music in a decidedly more romantic & less nimble vein. That's not what Bach has written.

I was also fascinated by how the Emersons seem to understand that, at the opening of Contrapunctus 14 Bach's creative powers almost seem to be waning (if that's possible). It's as if he was spent & had nothing more to say. He almost seems to be running out of steam. But then, his creative genius begins to reemerge or reassert itself with new ideas, and the listener begins to get swept away again by the power of his extraordinary imagination. Only this time, there seems to be an added depth to the music, an even greater sense of spiritual purpose, before the music then suddenly comes to an abrupt halt & we are left with nothing but silence.

Personally, I'm not overly interested in the composers of recent times who think that they can take up where Bach left off here & finish the piece. They're fooling themselves. Only Bach could have taken up where he left off, & no one else. None but Bach!

Although I may partly agree with others that the Emersons could have been more emotionally expressive or characterful in certain places in the opening sections, that is, leading up Contrapunctus 12a. I admit that I didn't find their playing to be quite as fully engaging in the earlier sections. Though (it's still excellent &) obviously they don't see the AOF as 'romantic' music, & in regards to Contrapunctus nos. 12a-14 at least, I think they're right.

Thanks for a terrific choice this week, Mandryka. 

Well, I've only been back one week now, and I've already bought a new recording! $$$$!! But I just couldn't be without the Emerson's brilliant playing of the Contrapunctus sections 12a to 14. It's so good. Fortunately, I won't need to pull out my wallet again for next week's selection, since it's my regular bi-annual turn... 

Stay tuned, I'll post later today. I will say this though--If you're a Ravel & Debussy nut, like me, I think you're going to enjoy my pick for next week, as it will likely be a new work for many people here, if not everyone.


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## Philidor

Kreisler jr said:


> I doubt such combinatorics make good music in general. Otherwise we would love and value Simon "6000 fugues" Sechter or at least Reger or Sorabji or a dozen of medieval/renaissance composers as much as Bach/AoF.


The combinatorics alone won't do it, agreed. One additional point is that Bach stays within one affect in each fugue, which contributes to the satsifactory result.


Kreisler jr said:


> OTOH it seems facetious to claim that AoF is attractive music *in spite" of brilliant combinatorics and I'd probably agree that it is a part of its quality But I doubt it is the main aspect, otherwise other combinatorial music should be far more highly regarded.


Just to get you right - do you have an example where some composer delivered the combinatorics at the same level as Bach but the piece was not so successful? (Apart from writing 8-part strettos being in conflict with the rules of harmony.)


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## Enthusiast

Personally, I am comfortable listening the whole thing as a piece. I don't particularly like singling out pieces from the whole but perhaps if I knew the whole really well I would be able to put together my own programme of "highlights". I will say (and have already said) that the piece works better for me as keyboard music but that I do enjoy the Juilliard account quite a lot. I am sure that it fails lots of authenticity tests but it has many many moments that I enjoy a lot. The Emersons sound sterile next to it (and perhaps even apart from it!) and sterility is the last thing you want to risk in this music! 

Those are the only two of genuine string quartet recordings I listened to but I did also listen to three different viol consorts. I must say I enjoy Fretwork's recording - it has life and imagination - but it is perhaps viols sounding almost like modern instruments. Phantasm are not so different but are somehow less invigorating. Les Voix Humaines have a very different sound - is it their playing/instruments or their use of a very reverberant venue? - and sound more archaic than you would expect from someone as modern as Bach! They are often quite slow and do some interesting things. I am not sure I have found a place in my life (and my shifting moods) where theirs is the recording I would turn to so far but I don't rule it out. 

I have an aversion to accounts of the Art of Fugue by larger or more varied ensembles. The possibility of more variety is attractive in theory but all too often I just find it disturbing. It seems I like a purity in this music and anyway I am quite happy finding the variety in the playing (of a single musician or a quartet). I do, though, enjoy Rachel Podger's recording. 

I seem to be writing something that is just about my enjoyment of the music and that that enjoyment is only experiential. I don't take a lot of interest in the clever aspects of counterpoint and fugues - they either work for me as a musical (emotional) experience or they don't. Sorry to be such a peasant!


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## Kreisler jr

Philidor said:


> Just to get you right - do you have an example where some composer delivered the combinatorics at the same level as Bach but the piece was not so successful? (Apart from writing 8-part strettos being in conflict with the rules of harmony.)


I don't have an example, partly because I never listened to any Sechter or Sorabji and don't know other candidates like Reger, Hindemith well enough either. I also never understood or spend enough time with ars subtilior, isorhythmic motets etc. but what I have read when I once tried to get into this 15th century stuff it sounded at least as technical/combinatorial as Bach (such as two voices in canon and another one having the same music at a different speed etc.) but probably also more restricted by the style, which is of course 250 years before Bach, i.e. roughly as distant from Bach as we are from him.
The other thing is that Bach was likely "cheating" because the main theme is clearly devised to fit well in stretto and with its own inversion. I am far more impressed by the inventiveness of the varied/additional themes in cp 8-14 and the musical expression than by such combinatorics. Nevertheless, the whole piece is usually an overdose of moderately paced (because that's how most people play it) music in d minor and I am quite certain that it was not intended to be performed all in one session.


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## Philidor

Kreisler jr said:


> The other thing is that Bach was likely "cheating" because the main theme is clearly devised to fit well in stretto and with its own inversion.


Well,if Bach intended writing a collection named "Art of Fugue" and if his objective was to show inversions, augmentations, diminutions, strettos and all that stuff, I wouldn't call it "cheating" if he chose a subject that allows to display such artistry ... the invention of the main subject is already part of the art.


Kreisler jr said:


> Nevertheless, the whole piece is usually an overdose of moderately paced (because that's how most people play it) music in d minor and I am quite certain that it was not intended to be performed all in one session.


Here we fully agree.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I doubt such combinatorics make good music in general. Otherwise we would love and value . . . a dozen of medieval/renaissance composers as much as Bach/AoF.


Which medieval/renaissance composers are you thinking of?

One thing I would mention is that in renaissance music, people sing expressively. Even in a piece like Josquin's Missa Ad Fugam or Ockeghem's Missa cuiusvis toni. The Haydn type string quartet performers of Art of Fugue seem to me to mostly have no idea about how to play canonic music expressively -- that's one of the reasons why the performing editions by experienced composers (Robert Simpson for example) were so striking, even if they do end up making Bach sound like Brahms.


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## Josquin13

Please feel free to continue the Bach discussion for as long as you wish, I certainly don't mean to butt in. However, I wanted to get my quartet choice posted for the week, so that others, who may have finished listening to the Bach, can start to delve in with what's left of their weekend:

For next week's pick, I've selected the 1933 String Quartet No. 1 in G minor, Op. 8 by the Belgian composer, Prosper van Eechaute (1904-1964). If, like me, you've ever found yourself wishing that Claude Debussy & Maurice Ravel had composed more than one string quartet apiece, you'll likely enjoy getting to know this work. Mind you, I'm not claiming that it's on the same level as the Debussy & Ravel works, few quartets are, but it is well worth hearing I think. The sole performance that I know on record is by the Arriaga Quartet. (To fill the void of there being only a single recording to listen to this week, I've included links below to additional lesser known, neglected Belgian chamber works that I also find to be of special interest.)

Interestingly, Eechaute's quartet is composed "à la mémoire de Maurice Ravel", or in memory of Ravel, & he quotes from Ravel in places. The first movement is particularly magical. I used to think that this work was too long for the breadth of its ideas, & that it needed some editing, but with continued listening, I've grown to like its length and don't feel that the quartet is excessively long anymore. But I'll be interested to hear what others think in this regard,






I first became acquainted with Eechaute's quartet through an excellent series of recordings devoted to Belgian composers, entitled "In Flander's Fields". Where it comes coupled with another obscure quartet by the Belgian composer Godfried Devreese--his 1937 String Quartet in F Major--which I'd likewise recommend hearing (it's a shorter work). Like Ravel's SQ, Devreese's quartet is in F Major, & similarly French Impressionist influenced. Once more, the performance is by the Arriaga Quartet,






https://www.amazon.com/Devreese-Flanders-Fields-Impressionistic-Quartets/dp/B000004CUK/ref=sr_1_7?crid=QJT99EF76A2S&keywords=DEVREESE+Eechaute+flander's+fields&qid=1653765273&sprefix=devreese+eechaute+fl,aps,94&sr=8-7

For me, the Belgian composers were often at their best when their music is French influenced, as opposed to being more directly influenced by the excesses of late Romanticism. That is particularly true for the Belgian composer, Joseph Jongen, as well, whose more full blown late romantic works I'm not overly crazy about, but whose Debussy & Ravel inspired music I'm fascinated by. A good example, in addition to the two quartets above, is Jongen's "Concert a Cinq" for flute, violin, viola, cello & harp, which I discovered years ago when I did an extensive search to find works for flute, harp & strings that were influenced by Debussy's late chamber masterpiece, the 'other worldly' Sonata for Flute, Harp, & Viola.

Here are two excellent but contrasting recordings (I slightly prefer the first one myself, interpretatively)

1. Concert a cinq, Op. 71, performed by Ensemble Aprae:





2. Concert a cinq, Op. 71, performed by Oxalys:





For those eager to compare these Belgian chamber works to similar music by French composers, Jongen's "Concert a Cinq" fits together very well with the program of French chamber works on the following CD by the Montreal Chamber Players, which I'd likewise strongly recommend, & especially if you don't know this music,


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## Josquin13

This is disgusting. I can't even read the contents of my own post that I've just written above in order to edit it, due to the now invasive, & incredibly obnoxious ads on the side of the TC page; which have begun to cover over a portion of the written contents of this page.

When I first saw these advertisements come with the new format, my heart sank, because I knew eventually that the advertisements would take over the pages, as they do on other websites, making the contents unreadable or annoyingly difficult to read. Now it has happened. If this ad situation doesn't change, I can't imagine that TC will last. Who in the world is going to put up with it?

Edit: The overlapping ads only seem to be happening on my post, which is wider on the page than other posts, apparently due my adding You Tube clips?

Can people read the whole of my post? I can't. If there are any moderators out there, there appears to be a glitch in the new system that needs to be addressed & resolved.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Josquin13 said:


> This is disgusting. I can't even read the contents of my own post that I've just written above in order to edit it, due to the now overbearing, invasive, & incredibly obnoxious ads on the side of the TC page; which have begun to cover over a portion of the written contents of this page.
> 
> When I first saw these advertisements come with the new format, my heart sank, because I knew eventually that the advertisements would take over the pages, as they do on other websites, making the contents unreadable or annoyingly difficult to read. & now it has happened. If this invasiveness doesn't change, I can't imagine that TC will last much longer. Who in the world is going to put up with it?
> 
> Edit: The overlapping ads only seem to be happening on my post, which is wider on the page than other posts, apparently due my adding You Tube clips?
> 
> Can people read the whole of my post? I can't. If there are any moderators out there, there appears to be a glitch in the new system that needs to be addressed & resolved.


Sorry to hear that the ads have become an obnoxious experience for you (and several others from what I've seen). I have Adblock on my browser and don't see anything besides the posts as they should be. It's free to download and really does work. Further, you can choose to enable some non-intrusive ads for websites you want to support monetarily. It is well worth checking out.


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## Josquin13

Thanks, ACB, I'll look into Adblock (which I think I had once). But I still don't understand why the print in my above post extends more widely across the page than all the other posts on this thread, including my own previous posts... very weird.

Edit: I just downloaded Adblock Plus for free, & it works perfectly, as there isn't a single ad on the TC page now, & I can read my extra wide post above. So, the problem is resolved. Thanks again!!!


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## Merl

Jos, I've never heard of Prosper Van Eechaute (or PVE as he will be known by me from now on cos his name's too long and awkward to spell) but I've had a quick skip thru and rather like the sound of this quartet. I'll have a proper listen tomorrow. Looking forward to getting acquainted with it.


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## Josquin13

Merl,

Yes, PVE isn't well known. I'd say surprisingly so, given the high quality of his quartet. I believe there's only one recording of it. Have you ever had a week here where there was only one available recording to listen to? It must feel strange. By the way, the equally obscure Devreese SQ may even be the better work. I love making discoveries like these, & sharing them.


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Merl,
> 
> Yes, PVE isn't well known. I'd say surprisingly so, given the high quality of his quartet. I believe there's only one recording of it. Have you ever had a week here where there was only one available recording to listen to? It must feel strange. By the way, the equally obscure Devreese SQ may even be the better work. I love making discoveries like these, & sharing them.


Jos, I think there may have been a few quartets, we've looked at, where there's only been a single recording. It doesn't bother me, tbh, as long as its a good one. Single recordings are fine if they're top quality but more choice can obviously be even better (however that wasn't the case recently when I blogged one quartet where there were half a dozen recordings, none of which were totally satisfactory) .


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## Enthusiast

Josquin13 said:


> Thanks, ACB, I'll look into Adblock (which I think I had once). But I still don't understand why the print in my above post extends more widely across the page than all the other posts on this thread, including my own previous posts... very weird.
> 
> Edit: I just downloaded Adblock Plus for free, & it works perfectly, as there isn't a single ad on the TC page now, & I can read my extra wide post above. So, the problem is resolved. Thanks again!!!


I use a VPN and it also seems to block ads. I never see them these days.


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## Philidor

First listening ...

*Prosper van Eechaute: String Quartet No. 1 G minor op. 8*

Arriaga String Quartet










Thank you for choosing this one! Very nice. To be listened again.


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## Mandryka

There seems to have been a bit of a trend among impressionist composers to write pastiches "à la memoire" -- Ravel's sonata for violin and cello is "à la memoire de Debussy", Milhaud's 12th quartet is "à la memoire de Fauré."


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## Josquin13

Good point. But the tradition of composing a work to the 'immortal memory' of another composer goes back to at least the French Baroque era, with such works as F. Couperin's _L'Apothéose de Lully_ and _L'Apothéose de Corelli_. I suppose you could even say the tradition goes further back to the Burgundian & Franco-Flemish period, with such works as Ockeghem's motet "Mort tu as navre" composed for Binchois, & Josquin's "Deploration sur la mort d'Ockeghem. & of course, there are all those 'Le Tombeau', "In memoriam", & "Hommage" pieces by French (& non-French) composers, as well.

However, the curious thing about Eechaute's quartet is that it was composed in 1933, & Ravel didn't die until 1937. So Ravel was still alive! Which seems strange for a work that was written 'in memory of Ravel". That leads me to believe that for a French composer, or in this case a Belgian composer to write a work 'in memory' of another composer, it could equally be about celebrating that composer's artistic style or musical aesthetic. After all, F. Couperin called his _L'Apothéose de Lully a "harmonic panegyric". I also recall that at least one of the works written in memory of Ockeghem was similarly composed while Ockeghem was still alive (though I can't recall which one it was, it might have been Gombert's?). So, evidently, you didn't need to wait until the revered composer had actually died, in order to write your work 'in memory' of their musical genius. At least, that appears to be the tradition that Eechaute is writing within. In other words, it seems that these kinds of works were more about paying musical tribute to a great composer's style & aesthetic manifesto than they were "in memoriams". Which is something to keep in mind while listening to the obvious Ravel-like qualities contained within Eechaute's string quartet.

Though of course both the works that you mention, Mandryka--Ravel's Sonata in memory of Debussy, and Milhaud's string quartet in memory of Faure--were written after those two composers had passed away. So, evidently, it was acceptable, too, to wait until after a composer had died to show your musical respect. Personally, I can't imagine Ravel doing so before Debussy had died, given that there had long been a certain uneasy competitiveness between them (though naturally, Ravel had a huge amount of respect & admiration for Debussy's creative genius, but, I'm not sure to what extent the feeling was mutual on Debussy's side?, or how he might have reacted had Ravel done so, especially during his years suffering from colon cancer... in other words, the Sonata might not have gone over well)._


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## Merl

Jos, is it possible that PVE added the 'in memory of' at a later date (after Ravel had croaked).?


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

While not original in any way, shape or form, it was a very nice and comforting listen. From my end, I hear more Debussy than Ravel tho, so maybe PVE mixed them up


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## HenryPenfold

Enthusiast said:


> I use a VPN and it also seems to block ads. I never see them these days.


But do remember that the forum needs an income stream to remain in existence and if we feel unable to cough up the 5 cents per day that premium memberships costs, and also block the ads, it's hard to know how the the forum is supposed to sustain itself financially if we take that approach.


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## Merl

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> While not original in any way, shape or form, it was a very nice and comforting listen. From my end, I hear more Debussy than Ravel tho, so maybe PVE mixed them up


Thats pretty much how I hear this quartet after a few listens. Its a nice pleasant quartet, very well played. I agree that I hear more Debussy too and there's an 'Englishness' to this quartet (is it just me or does anyone else hear Vaughan-Williams in this one)?


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## Josquin13

Merl said:


> Jos, is it possible that PVE added the 'in memory of' at a later date (after Ravel had croaked).?


No, it was entitled 'in memory of Ravel' in 1933, right from the outset. Ravel hadn't yet "croaked", but he was already suffering from a cerebral condition that was exacerbated from a blow he took to his head in a taxi accident in 1932. Which got worse.

Actually, I think the content of my previous post is spot on. It's a musical tribute, & not an "in memoriam". He is deliberately evoking a 'Ravelian' world out of respect & admiration.

I'll have to listen to the Debussy & Ravel SQs again, but I'm pretty sure that it's the Ravel SQ that he quotes from, & not the Debussy. Eechaute was a pedagogue, so it's very unlikely that he got mixed up.

As for the quartet's "Englishness", are you sure you're not connecting Eechaute's quartet to those aspects of Ravel's music & aesthetic that are likewise within Vaughan Williams string quartets? After all, Ravel was VW's teacher & there's a definite influence ...

For me, Eechaute's imaginative powers are more than just pleasant & nice. So too are Devreese & Jongen's. But I've listened to these works many times now, & my appreciation of the music has definitely grown from when I first heard them. (While I responded very positively to Jongen's "Concert a cinq" right away, I admit it took me a little longer with the two Belgian SQs.)

Henry,
You make a good point. I thought about that after I got over my initial annoyance, not with the ads themselves, but with them covering over my page, making it partially unrreadable. But, if I buy a premium membership, which I've intended to do, will that completely eliminate the ads or stop them from covering over a part of the page?


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> As for the quartet's "Englishness", are you sure you're not connecting Eechaute's quartet to those aspects of Ravel's music & aesthetic that are likewise within Vaughan Williams string quartets? After all, Ravel was VW's teacher & there's a definite influence ...
> 
> But, if I buy a premium membership, which I've intended to do, will that completely eliminate the ads or stop them from covering over a part of the page?


Yes you're probably right about the Englishness. Malx and I were discussing this quartet over coffee this morning and he said it felt "Pastoral" which is probably a better description of what I was getting at. Thanks for answering my question about the 'in memoriam' btw. 

As far as the premium membership goes I have it and it does eliminate all those annoying ads.


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## Malx

Having given Eechaute's quartet a few listens I had jotted down a few words that indicated my initial reactions:

Pastoral (as mentioned to Merl)
Not earthshattering,
Perhaps could benefit from being more concise.
Don't hear clear reference to Ravel.
It is a fine enough work but not one that I feel I must rush to add to my collection, I reinterate a point I have made before - I believe that quartets over twenty minutes(ish) in length need really strong themes, ideas call them what you will to sustain the length when there are only four instruments in play.


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## SearsPoncho

Malx said:


> Having given Eechaute's quartet a few listens I had jotted down a few words that indicated my initial reactions:
> 
> Pastoral (as mentioned to Merl)
> Not earthshattering,
> Perhaps could benefit from being more concise.
> Don't hear clear reference to Ravel.
> It is a fine enough work but not one that I feel I must rush to add to my collection, I reinterate a point I have made before - I believe that quartets over twenty minutes(ish) in length need really strong themes, ideas call them what you will to sustain the length when there are only four instruments in play.


Mal, to be honest, I find that ANY piece of music over 20 minutes has to have strong themes or ideas to sustain the length, whether it be orchestral, chamber, solo, rock, metal (are you listening, Steve Harris?), jazz, prog, fusion, etc. I actually find that a mediocre string quartet can sustain my interest much better than other genres because I can easily follow each line of melody, counterpoint and polyphony, plus there's more of a personal touch than a bombastic orchestral work that goes nowhere. Just my two cents (which are meaningless because of inflation).


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## Carmina Banana

After a casual listen:

I really like this piece. My favorite movement is the last. It builds throughout and then rewards us with a ray of sunshine. It was fitting end to this fairly lengthy quartet.

The composer perfectly captures at least a certain aspect of Ravel’s style. He keeps delivering lush harmonies and alluring modal melodies almost non-stop. He is so generous with beautiful melodies; it could be why some feel it is too long? 

It reminds me of my walk this morning: everyone was watering their lawns and I was almost overwhelmed by the smells of fresh grass, lilacs and pine trees.


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## HenryPenfold

Josquin13 said:


> Henry,
> You make a good point. I thought about that after I got over my initial annoyance, not with the ads themselves, but with them covering over my page, making it partially unrreadable. But, if I buy a premium membership, which I've intended to do, will that completely eliminate the ads or stop them from covering over a part of the page?


Yes, all ads are completely eliminated with premium membership. If you carry out your intentions you will enjoy an ad-free experience.

But all forum members need to think about whether the expense of 5.4 cents per day can be justified in terms of how much they use and enjoy the forum. 

Some members in this thread have helpfully explained the work-around as to how to get it all for nothing.

We can let the admins and others involved in making the forum happen continue to provide it to us for free - so you might want to bear that in mind too.


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## maestro267

I wish it was easier to find what this week's choice of quartet is. Maybe we oughta treat this like Saturday Symphonies on the orchestral subsection and give each weekly quartet its own thread. It might even generate more traffic/discussion than the orchestral counterpart which usually winds up being "I'm listening to x recording" with little discussion of the actual music.


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## SearsPoncho

maestro267 said:


> I wish it was easier to find what this week's choice of quartet is. Maybe we oughta treat this like Saturday Symphonies on the orchestral subsection and give each weekly quartet its own thread. It might even generate more traffic/discussion than the orchestral counterpart which usually winds up being "I'm listening to x recording" with little discussion of the actual music.


Just go back a page or two. We also have a list of every quartet on the original post. It's not too difficult. We've got a good thing going here. With all due respect, let's not get too lazy. When all else fails, you can just post "What quartet are we listening to this week?". You'll get an immediate response, and that's a bingo!


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## Bwv 1080

so getting back in the swing here, listening to the Eechaute on youtube, as there are no recordings on Idagio

it does have that Debussy / Ravel 30s movie soundtrack vibe, enjoyed listening to it

Question for the group - now that so many SQs have been done, what about expanding the thread to Quintets containing a SQ? so could do string quintets, clarinet quintets, piano quintets etc


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## SearsPoncho

Bwv 1080 said:


> so getting back in the swing here, listening to the Eechaute on youtube, as there are no recordings on Idagio
> 
> it does have that Debussy / Ravel 30s movie soundtrack vibe, enjoyed listening to it
> 
> Question for the group - now that so many SQs have been done, what about expanding the thread to Quintets containing a SQ? so could do string quintets, clarinet quintets, piano quintets etc


I like this thread as is...but we can certainly start a new thread called String Quartet + 1. That will cover all that great stuff from Mozart, Brahms, Dvorak, Franck, Faure,Elgar, Chausson (actually that + 2), Shostakovich, etc., while maintaining a dedicated string quartet thread.


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## Josquin13

Bwv 1080 writes, "Question for the group - now that so many SQs have been done, what about expanding the thread to Quintets containing a SQ? so could do string quintets, clarinet quintets, piano quintets etc."

I don't know if we're there yet. Personally, I don't think we are, but that's something for the group to decide. However, I do think that there will eventually come a point when we'll each have nominated most of our favorite string quartets, or discovered as many interesting, lesser known works that we can, before we begin to get a bit less excited about our nominations each week. But, as I said, I'm not there yet, myself.

If we do reach that point though, & are all in agreement, I'd suggest that we retire this thread & start a whole new one for string, piano, & woodwind quintets, & then when that's exhausted, one for piano quartets, and then after we've done those, one for violin, cello, & woodwind sonatas, and then one for piano, string, & woodwind trios, and Sextets, Septets, & Octets, etc. (although it doesn't have to be in that order)--that is, if people are still game to continue on.


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## HenryPenfold

Josquin13 said:


> Bwv 1080 writes, "Question for the group - now that so many SQs have been done, what about expanding the thread to Quintets containing a SQ? so could do string quintets, clarinet quintets, piano quintets etc."
> 
> I don't know if we're there yet. Personally, I don't think we are, but that's something for the group to decide. However, I do think that there will eventually come a point when we'll each have nominated most of our favorite string quartets, or discovered as many interesting, lesser known works that we can, before we begin to get a bit less excited about our nominations each week. But, as I said, I'm not there yet, myself.
> 
> If we do reach that point though, & are all in agreement, I'd suggest that we retire this thread & start a whole new one for string, piano, & woodwind quintets, & then when that's exhausted, one for piano quartets, and then after we've done those, one for violin, cello, & woodwind sonatas, and then one for piano, string, & woodwind trios, and Sextets, Septets, & Octets, etc. (although it doesn't have to be in that order)--that is, if people are still game to continue on.


I think that's a good idea, it's getting a bit 'samey'and a string quartet however augmented to five, could be invigorating.


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## Merl

I don't know about others but to me there's plenty left to explore here. My next port of call, strangely, was to start reviewing string quintets on my blog but I was going to leave it a while (until summer at least) whilst continuing with visiting the weekly SQ thread. If the general consensus is that people are getting bored, etc then it would make sense to wind it up but that's not how I feel at this moment. That's my tuppence worth.


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## Josquin13

I admit, I need to take breaks from listening to string quartets every week; at least, after a while, as much as I enjoy listening to SQs. Plus, I prefer hearing them live. But I also love violin sonatas & all types of trios, etc., just as much. 

At the same time we haven't even done Beethoven's Op. 132 yet, or Mozart's incredible late quartets... so there's still plenty left to do. So, I'm game to continue, if others want to. 

On the other hand, what we could do, is occasionally add an "anything goes' week--say once a month, where quintets, trios, violin sonatas, etc. are permitted, that is, if the nominator chooses to select one.


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## SearsPoncho

Josquin13 said:


> I admit, I need to take breaks from listening to string quartets every week; at least, after a while, as much as I enjoy listening to SQs. Plus, I prefer hearing them live. But I also love violin sonatas & all types of trios, etc., just as much.
> 
> At the same time we haven't even done Beethoven's Op. 132 yet, or Mozart's incredible late quartets... so there's still plenty left to do. So, I'm game to continue, if others want to.
> 
> On the other hand, what we could do, is occasionally add an "anything goes' week--say once a month, where quintets, trios, violin sonatas, etc. are permitted, that is, if the nominator chooses to select one.


 Just a reminder that this is not the only thread on this forum. Start a new thread. Furthermore, I believe there are already existing threads on most, if not all, the ensembles you've mentioned. By the way, we haven't even scratched the surface on Haydn's quartets.


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## Art Rock

maestro267 said:


> I wish it was easier to find what this week's choice of quartet is. Maybe we oughta treat this like Saturday Symphonies on the orchestral subsection and give each weekly quartet its own thread. It might even generate more traffic/discussion than the orchestral counterpart which usually winds up being "I'm listening to x recording" with little discussion of the actual music.


I usually update the list pretty soon after the selection is presented. I could easily make the choice of the week stand out on the first page by bolding it or using bigger font.


Also, there are some composers who have not even been chosen once. Thinking of my own playing list over the past months, I think Spohr, Stanford and Stenhammar deserve to be selected at a certain time.


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## Kreisler jr

I am for staying with string quartets. As has been said, anyone can take a break or start/refresh a thread for a clarinet or piano quintet. But there are still so many fairly standard (and even more lesser known) quartets left that I think opening up to all kinds of mixed chamber music would be distracting from the point of the series. Even staying with Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Shostakovich there would be more well known quartets left for further weeks than there are well known piano or clarinet quintets...
Even if I myself might occasionally skip a suggested piece, I'd much rather get suggestions for pieces I'd probably NEVER have encountered on my own, like Eechaute or that Amazing Grace piece than now go through the usual suspects of piano quintets.


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## Merl

As I said earlier, I'm happy to go with the flow which currently seems to be 'If it ain't broke..' . As mentioned by others there are plenty to go at still - we've hardly touched the Shosties, Haydn, Mozart or Bartok and other quartet writers like Spohr, Fuchs, Glazunov, Stenhammar, Raff, etc. I know I've personally blogged a whole lot of others but that shouldn't stop them being chosen for the weekly SQ by others (and it gives me an an easier week, lol).


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## Malx

I don't believe the wheels are even close to falling off this thread yet - so imo lets keep this thread on the road.

I accept the idea of a seperate thread for other chamber forms, my only slight concern with that route is I believe a good percentage of the potential participants would be those currently active here and with two works to consider each week I do believe the quality of posts may be diluted - not to mention when would we get time to play all the other great music out there.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> As I said earlier, I'm happy to go with the flow which currently seems to be 'If it ain't broke..' . As mentioned by others there are plenty to go at still - we've hardly touched the Shosties, Haydn, Mozart or Bartok and other quartet writers like Spohr, Fuchs, Glazunov, Stenhammar, Raff, etc. I know I've personally blogged a whole lot of others but that shouldn't stop them being chosen for the weekly SQ by others (and it gives me an an easier week, lol).


The number of string quartets available to focus on is innumerable, no quibble there. And it's 'not broken' for the small group who regularly use this thread.

But in the last 2 weeks (20th - 2nd) we've only been averaging around 6 posts per day from the same 10 or so regular contributors. I personally don't feel drawn in and was wondering if it could be invigorated somehow.


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## maestro267

OK, having this week's choice enlarged on the opening-page list is very handy. If that's always been the case and I just hadn't noticed, I apologise. As someone who's recently gotten into chamber music I have been looking in this thread fairly regularly for suggestions on things to listen to. How does it work in terms of being able to make suggestions?


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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> The number of string quartets available to focus on is innumerable, no quibble there. And it's 'not broken' for the small group who regularly use this thread.
> 
> But in the last 2 weeks (20th - 2nd) we've only been averaging around 6 posts per day from the same 10 or so regular contributors. I personally don't feel drawn in and was wondering if it could be invigorated somehow.


If someone chooses some really mainstream core classical music then it'll liven up, because that's what people enjoy. A Razumovsky quartet or a Haydn op 76, that sort of thing. If you look at the list at the start of the thread, it's pretty recherché. It's not surprising that hardly anyone is interested in Breton or Vasks or Kagel . . . 

What's needed is to attract people with just a passing interest in the music, who just fancy finding out just a little bit more about the sort of music they've maybe heard in the shopping mall or on the radio while driving. There seem to be a few of them on the forum, but they don't come this far in.

Perhaps -- here's a brilliant idea, though I say so myself -- perhaps we could have an ad for this thread on the home page of the forum.


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## Enthusiast

The string quartet has been a staple of the repertoire since Haydn, often reserved by composers for their more serious and considered utterances. I would support expanding the scope to _string _quintets (after all who could object to having another viola or cello?) but feel that including piano quintets, clarinet quintets etc would dilute the whole flavour of the thread. And where would it end? If piano quintets (piano + string quartet) why not piano quartets? The latter would not involve having a full string quartet playing but that would seem an almost arbitrary reason to exclude them. Keep it to strings and no bigger than quintet. Or stay with quartets.

I do get that doing a quartet a week can be a bit much but no-one needs to do every one of them. I'm staying out of this weeks one for no other reason than that I don't feel like listening to a quartet (any quartet) at the moment.


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## Art Rock

maestro267 said:


> OK, having this week's choice enlarged on the opening-page list is very handy. If that's always been the case and I just hadn't noticed, I apologise.


First time I did it was today, thanks to this thread.


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Question for the group - now that so many SQs have been done, what about expanding the thread to Quintets containing a SQ? so could do string quintets, clarinet quintets, piano quintets etc


This is demonstrably an excellent idea, if your aim is to get more contributions. The demonstration is as follows: in November 2020 the group discussed Rihm's Et Lux for quartet and choir, and the discussion was considerably livelier than it was for, for example, the quartet chosen for this week. I say go for it -- admit anything that has either at least one string instrument or four instruments of any kind.


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## Burbage

It's Friday again.

Prosper Van Eechaute is not a name I remember encountering before, and I doubt I'll remember it much after. There's a doubly-pleasing symmetry about that because, thanks to an accident of birth, or possibly death, he won't much have cared who I am, either. A carelessness we both seem to share with the English language editors of Wikipedia.

Happily, if posthumously, for Van Eechaute, the Nederlandsish editors of that uncertainly reliable project have made a better fist of things, albeit only up to a point. A quick glance through a googly translation of their brief curated notes suggests he spent all his 60 years in Ghent, and all his working life in the same Ghent-based institution, even as it turned from Academy to Conservatory around him. There is little to suggest he was a man of wild or wilful impulse and he seems unlikely to add to the armoury of any player of the deplorable game of Six Famous Belgians. 

Which, perhaps unnaturally, left me wondering what he was like as a person. With writers, whether or music or words, it's usually possible to find something of themselves in their work. But this quartet seems mostly to be Ravel. That, in itself, is interesting. For why would, in 1933, a 28-year old, prize-winning composer want to mimic the prize-winning composition of a 28-year old composer from 1903?

Or, perhaps more pertinently, why would a 28-year-old teacher of composition, after five years in the job, want to re-construct one of the most powerful, unique and individual musical statements of the decade of his birth? If he liked his job so much to stick at it for the rest of his life, and that job involved working out how music was made, then why wouldn't he?

It's probably not wise to conclude much from that, though I'm intrigued by the thought of Van Eechaute as a sort-of musical engineer. He's not entirely a theorist, and not wholly an artist, either, but someone captivated by method, not trying to find the universe in a tram ticket, or invent a new temperament, but intrigued by how the old, stolid conventions can give rise to the most gripping, personal, artistic statements.

So here we have a quartet that's sounds like Ravel, and uses many of the the same harmonic, rhythmic and melodic techniques. In effect, it's a pastiche. But, despite the temptation to write 'just a pastiche', it's not necessarily a bad pastiche, as it has some charm and originality of its own, though not, perhaps, enough to make it any more famous than it already isn't.

And that, of course, leaves me wondering what it is that makes a "good" quartet, and whether I'd feel the same if I'd heard Van Eechaute's before I knew of Ravel's? The way we listen to music, and what in it grabs us (or doesn't), is affected by the music we've heard (or played) before. I'm reminded of those chewy operas and/or novels that flatteringly presume a detailed knowledge of classical mythology which modern audiences stumble on. It's not that they don't know who the Queen of Carthage was, it's just that there have been one or two other Dido's since whose relevance may be less tangential.

That said, distance does give leverage, I suspect. Which is why, I imagine, Prokofiev's pastiche of Haydn, Ravel's own turn at Couperin or the medievalisms of Orff and Respighi, find wider audiences than Mozart's go at the baroque. There's more space for irony, even if it's only implied. That is clearly not the case here, where Van Eechaute is more faithful than playful, but I can't see how it might have been done differently. If nothing else, it's an entertaining curiosity, so I'm glad we've been able to make space for it here on this nice, peaceful, quartet-minded thread, despite the populist demands of numerical supremacists.


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## sbmonty

Personally I love this thread as a string quartet thread. I have listened and purchased so much music that I doubt I ever would have come across otherwise. So many knowledgable contributors really enhances the value. That being said, if there is an appetite to expand to quintets, why not have the last week of every month dedicated to a quintet? There seem to be vastly more quartets than quintets, at least in my collection. 
Cheers!


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## Kreisler jr

Malx said:


> I accept the idea of a seperate thread for other chamber forms, my only slight concern with that route is I believe a good percentage of the potential participants would be those currently active here and with two works to consider each week I do believe the quality of posts may be diluted - not to mention when would we get time to play all the other great music out there.


I for one didn't mean to suggest an alternative weekly work and I agree that this would be too much. I just meant that one can always start or refresh an existing thread about a piano quintet or so, if one is particularly interested in the piece.
I fear, that including any quintets would yield more predictable choices because there is far less room between warhorses and rather obscures pieces. Whereas for quartets there are so many more both very well known, rather obscure and in between.


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## Philidor

Josquin13 said:


> If we do reach that point though, & are all in agreement, I'd suggest that we retire this thread & start a whole new one for string, piano, & woodwind quintets, & then when that's exhausted, one for piano quartets, and then after we've done those, one for violin, cello, & woodwind sonatas, and then one for piano, string, & woodwind trios, and Sextets, Septets, & Octets, etc. (although it doesn't have to be in that order)--that is, if people are still game to continue on.


It is very easy to cover infinitely many genres in parallel.

You start with some genre, e. g. string quartet (= week 1).

Now you are doubling the number of the starting week (1) consecutively: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, ...
In each of these weeks there will be another string quartet to be chosen and listened to.

What happens in week 3? You choose another genre, e. g. piano trio. Now just the same: Double the number consecutively - piano trios in weeks 3, 6, 12, 24, ...

Week 4 - oh, it's is already reserved for a string quartet.

Week 5 is free - next genre, say, clarinet quintet. And so on in weeks 10, 20, 40, 80, ...

Week 6 - next piano trio.

Week 7 - next genre ...

I think, you got it. One thread, infinitely many genres, infinitely many pieces per genre. You just need to live long enough, but you can't expect a forum on classical music to solve that problem.


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## Art Rock

Mandryka said:


> Perhaps -- here's a brilliant idea, though I say so myself -- perhaps we could have an ad for this thread on the home page of the forum.


For starters, the people who take part in this thread can post their SQ listening weekly in the ever popular Current Listening thread (some already do), and include a link to this thread.


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## Merl

Philidor said:


> It is very easy to cover infinitely many genres in parallel.
> 
> You start with some genre, e. g. string quartet (= week 1).
> 
> Now you are doubling the number of the starting week (1) consecutively: 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, ...
> In each of these weeks there will be another string quartet to be chosen and listened to.
> 
> What happens in week 3? You choose another genre, e. g. piano trio. Now just the same: Double the number consecutively - piano trios in weeks 3, 6, 12, 24, ...
> 
> Week 4 - oh, it's is already reserved for a string quartet.
> 
> Week 5 is free - next genre, say, clarinet quintet. And so on in weeks 10, 20, 40, 80, ...
> 
> Week 6 - next piano trio.
> 
> Week 7 - next genre ...
> 
> I think, you got it. One thread, infinitely many genres, infinitely many pieces per genre. You just need to live long enough, but you can't expect a forum on classical music to solve that problem.


The problem with this is the people who are interested in piano trios, clarinet quintets, etc won't see them cos this is a string quartet thread and I doubt they'll generate as much interest than if they were in their own thread in the chamber section. It's an interesting idea but I doubt it will work. I'm far from conservative (that's not a word I ever use unless in a condescending way😉) but I rather like this thread as it is, as regards quartets only. Changes to the smaller details are fine with me.


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## Philidor

I only wanted to show that any try for a compromise could be very difficult.

I agree that this thread should stay dedicated to string quartets.


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## SearsPoncho

I really wish we would keep this as a string quartet thread. If one is tired of string quartets, start a weekly piano trios thread, string quintets thread, piano quartets thread, or piano quintets thread. Is that so difficult? I think you will be surprised at how quickly those threads end, in light of the paucity of truly great examples of those genres. I'm not sure why y'all want to ditch the string quartet when there are tons of "truly great" string quartets we haven't covered yet. The other genres combined wouldn't equal one tenth of the amount of great quartets we still haven't covered. Sure, we can play the obscure, unknown, new "game" with those other genres, but the group will find that, more often than not, they would hardly measure up and would not be worth listening to. I really don't understand this. This is a forum with a ton of threads. Why are y'all trying to combine the entirety of the chamber music repertoire in one thread. We have an entire chamber music forum for that. Why not add violin sonatas, cello sonatas, sextets, septets, octets, flute sonatas, clarinet sonatas, oboe sonatas, and string trios. as well? Shouldn't threads, especially this invaluable one, stick to one subject. Again, sorry for being so strident or passionate about this, but this is the only forum I belong to, and it's because of this thread. I would be more than happy to contribute to other chamber music threads, such as piano trios, and I already have; there's a piano trios thread floating about and the same names, which can be counted on two hands, possibly one, are mentioned. I'm not angry at anyone here, I just don't see the point of trying to squeeze the entire forum re: Chamber Music into one thread. That's my two cents. It's not the end of the world, and if you good people (and I can tell our members really are good people) want to change it, I'll accept it...this is just my last ditch plea, that's all. I'll live with whatever you decide.

*EDIT: *Oh, one more thing. Each member currently waits about 5 months to nominate a single selection. If we add more subgenres, than you're waiting almost half a year to decide whether to pick that quartet, quintet, piano trio, or piano quintet, which means it might be several years before you finally get around to picking the few, initial selections you feel strongly about and want to share with the group.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Discussion naturally ebbs and flows, and it's not entirely fair to say that it's due to the chosen quartet—people do have lives beyond the Internet and can't be equally committed for all weeks, notwithstanding the fact that it's downright difficult to write accurately about music and some may choose to simply enjoy the week's selection in silence. I'm not necessarily bothered by certain weeks having fewer comments, although I am guilty of posting a complaint about this a few weeks ago when I was caught on a particularly cranky day. I think the thread is perfectly fine as it stands, though different exposure techniques are always welcome. Ultimately, there's very little if anything to complain about in this thread. As far as I can recall we've only had two seriously heated debates in the whole history of the thread, on Schoenberg and Kagel, respectively. Each week is sure to generate at least a few insightful and edifying thoughts, and I tend to value quality over quantity. This thread is quality all-around. Besides, I would probably never have been introduced to a great number of absolutely lovely forgotten gems if not for the nominations here, and that's worth it in itself. The relatively narrow focus here has reaped many benefits, and I believe there are still many to be reaped. Let's move onward.

As for Prosper van Eechaute? Perhaps the first composer we have done so far without even such an honor as a Wikipedia article (there is a very brief one in Dutch but not English). I appreciated the obscure choice, and from this selection, he is a worthwhile name to dredge up from the neglected annals of 20th-century music. I fully enjoyed the lush mixture of impressionist and pastoral modes and the perfectly genial fountain of radiant melodies that flowed from Prosper's pen. Yes, it is highly derivative; and yes, it goes on too long for what it is. But it was a none-too-demanding listen to accompany the beautiful summer weather we've been at long last starting to get here in the Midwest USA. Like all the works we have listened to, there is value to be found if one is willing to take the music on its own terms, and simply accept what the artist is giving us; regardless of whether it is earth-shattering, unnerving, penetrating, pictorial, horizon-expanding, or, in the case of van Eechaute, simply overflowing with genial warmth.


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## HenryPenfold

FFS!


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Discussion naturally ebbs and flows, and it's not entirely fair to say that it's due to the chosen quartet—people do have lives beyond the Internet and can't be equally committed for all weeks, notwithstanding the fact that it's downright difficult to write accurately about music and some may choose to simply enjoy the week's selection in silence. I'm not necessarily bothered by certain weeks having fewer comments, although I am guilty of posting a complaint about this a few weeks ago when I was caught on a particularly cranky day. I think the thread is perfectly fine as it stands, though different exposure techniques are always welcome. Ultimately, there's very little if anything to complain about in this thread. As far as I can recall we've only had two seriously heated debates in the whole history of the thread, on Schoenberg and Kagel, respectively. Each week is sure to generate at least a few insightful and edifying thoughts, and I tend to value quality over quantity. This thread is quality all-around. Besides, I would probably never have been introduced to a great number of absolutely lovely forgotten gems if not for the nominations here, and that's worth it in itself. The relatively narrow focus here has reaped many benefits, and I believe there are still many to be reaped. Let's move onward.
> 
> As for Prosper van Eechaute? Perhaps the first composer we have done so far without even such an honor as a Wikipedia article (there is a very brief one in Dutch but not English). I appreciated the obscure choice, and from this selection, he is a worthwhile name to dredge up from the neglected annals of 20th-century music. I fully enjoyed the lush mixture of impressionist and pastoral modes and the perfectly genial fountain of radiant melodies that flowed from Prosper's pen. Yes, it is highly derivative; and yes, it goes on too long for what it is. But it was a none-too-demanding listen to accompany the beautiful summer weather we've been at long last starting to get here in the Midwest USA. Like all the works we have listened to, there is value to be found if one is willing to take the music on its own terms, and simply accept what the artist is giving us; regardless of whether it is earth-shattering, unnerving, penetrating, pictorial, horizon-expanding, or, in the case of van Eechaute, simply overflowing with genial warmth.


I gave an _average_ for the last 2 weeks, so 'ebb and flow' is irrelevant.

In fact the average number of posts since inception, (Feb 2020 - Feb 2022) gives virtually the same average number of daily posts as the last 2 weeks. And a similar small number of posters, irrespective of the nature of the quartet or whether people have lives beyond the internet.

That's not my point ACB.

My point is that I find the thread narrow in focus, catering for a small group of people, and I think we can do better than that.

Josquin politely made a reasonable suggestion and I seconded. Not sure why people (not just you) feel the need to be so defensive. 

BTW, nothing wrong with listening to warm, genial music (although when I want that I go for John Denver and Boney M's lighter stuff), but what's wrong with " seriously heated debates"?


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## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> I gave an _average_ for the last 2 weeks, so 'ebb and flow' is irrelevant.
> 
> In fact the average number of posts since inception, (Feb 2020 - Feb 2022) gives virtually the same average number of daily posts as the last 2 weeks. And a similar small number of posters, irrespective of the nature of the quartet or whether people have lives beyond the internet.
> 
> That's not my point ACB.
> 
> My point is that I find the thread narrow in focus, catering for a small group of people, and I think we can do better than that.
> 
> BTW, nothing wrong with listening to warm, genial music (although when I want that I go for John Denver and Boney M's lighter stuff), but what's wrong with " seriously heated debates"?


Isn't that the inevitable nature of all threads, though? Only a very small number of the total amount of posters currently active on this forum are going to be attracted to certain threads. If the traffic on the thread were to be increased, what would you recommend while keeping the content of the thread consistent with its title? 

As for "seriously heated discussions," that's not what I come here for and I have my doubts as to whether most people do. The risk of getting into a fruitless discussion over the Internet medium is too high for me to post in any thread but this one anymore (and, once in a blue moon, Current Listening). I simply don't like debating with people online because it's so impersonal and subject to misunderstanding. Of course I don't mind constructive conversation and dissenting opinions, even interacting with others' opinions and expressing my own, but not to the point where squabbling is a prominent feature and people try to push their thoughts on others. I tire quickly of negative opinions and especially criticism of others' opinions without valid grounding. I think there's something to be said for keeping this thread free of heated discussion when one can get that quite literally anywhere else on the forum.


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## HenryPenfold

[


Allegro Con Brio said:


> Isn't that the inevitable nature of all threads, though? Only a very small number of the total amount of posters currently active on this forum are going to be attracted to certain threads. If the traffic on the thread were to be increased, what would you recommend while keeping the content of the thread consistent with its title?
> 
> 
> 
> As for "seriously heated discussions," that's not what I come here for and I have my doubts as to whether most people do. The risk of getting into a fruitless discussion over the Internet medium is too high for me to post in any thread but this one anymore (and, once in a blue moon, Current Listening). I simply don't like debating with people online because it's so impersonal and subject to misunderstanding. Of course I don't mind constructive conversation and dissenting opinions, even interacting with others' opinions and expressing my own, but not to the point where squabbling is a prominent feature and people try to push their thoughts on others. I tire quickly of negative opinions and especially criticism of others' opinions without valid grounding. I think there's something to be said for keeping this thread free of heated discussion when one can get that quite literally anywhere else on the forum.


Two wrongs don't make a right. 

I go with josquin's suggestion, or some variation of it to include piano, clarinet etc quartets.


Nor do I come online to get heated, but with serious music discussion, sometimes passions will run high. No need to be faint-hearted about it (occasionally the internet can be a little rough and tumble)


----------



## maestro267

Btw, I have no idea where the idea of ditching the string quartets only format came from. Certainly not from me. Just looking on the initial page there are plenty of parts of the core SQ repertoire we have yet to explore, let alone the nooks and crannies.


----------



## Philidor

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think the thread is perfectly fine as it stands


Agreed.


----------



## HenryPenfold

maestro267 said:


> Btw, I have no idea where the idea of ditching the string quartets only format came from. Certainly not from me. Just looking on the initial page there are plenty of parts of the core SQ repertoire we have yet to explore, let alone the nooks and crannies.


Well t seems to have grown legs! Most people are perfectly happy with the way that it is, and that's how it will stay (democracy and all that). Where the idea came from was a simple reasonable suggestion to augment the focus. I for one thought aha was a good idea. It has been floated, responded to and rejected. We can move on, back to where we were before this churlish distraction!


----------



## Philidor

If someone could point out some nice aspects with Eechaute's quartet that I didn't realize so far and that could enrich my listening, I would be very appreciative.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Philidor said:


> If someone could point out some nice aspects with Eechaute's quartet that I didn't realize so far and that could enrich my listening, I would be very appreciative.


apparently it's genial, when it's not being lush


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> ...... Where the idea came from was a simple reasonable suggestion to augment the focus. I for one thought it was a good idea. It has been floated, responded to and rejected.....


I'm blaming you for it all, Henry 'Social Provocateur'. You should be ashamed of yourself! 👺


----------



## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'm blaming you for it all, Henry 'Social Provocateur'. You should be ashamed of yourself! 👺


If I've caused people to think, even for a moment, and not take for granted, I'm content 😌


----------



## Merl

I'm hoping my next pick generates plenty of discussion.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'm hoping my next pick generates plenty of discussion.


If you pick a piano quartet, it certainly will! 😜


----------



## Merl

What about a string quartet written by Prince Andrew?


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> What about a string quartet written by Prince Andrew?


I may be a Monarchist, and she's the first among all heads of state, all-time, wherever, but I'll not vouch for her child-rearing record.


----------



## Bwv 1080

maestro267 said:


> Btw, I have no idea where the idea of ditching the string quartets only format came from. Certainly not from me. Just looking on the initial page there are plenty of parts of the core SQ repertoire we have yet to explore, let alone the nooks and crannies.


that would be me, to my regret, if you just scroll back it’s not that hard to find

guess for my next pick I could choose one of Mozart’s string quartets and the purists could simply ignore the second viola and focus on the other four instruments


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

^By the way, BWV 1080, you may be aware of this, but it's your pick this week (by the end of tomorrow).

And on a completely unrelated note, here's some comic relief. I saw this sign in a thrift store today and thought the folks on this thread would appreciate it. I think my eyes are still bleeding (sorry for the crappy photo):









I think my favorite part about this is the fact that Thalberg is on there.


----------



## Bwv 1080

So could I pick Mozart’s Clarinet Quintet as long as no one spoke about the clarinet part?

sorry don’t want to press this further. Given the death this year of George Crumb, my selection is Black Angels, subtitled ‘Thirteen Images from the Dark Land’. Written in 1970, it refers to the Vietnam War. The piece contains 13 movements in three groups. The SQ is amplified and includes some additional percussion, but as it’s played by the quartet member still qualifies it as a quartet. Have not listened to this piece in a while, but George’s death got me remembering how much I liked the Kronos recording.


----------



## Philidor

Guys and girls, this thread was one of the gems in this excellent forum in my humble opinion. Is there any possibility to keep its look and feel?


----------



## Merl

Philidor said:


> Guys and girls, this thread was one of the gems in this excellent forum in my humble opinion. Is there any possibility to keep its look and feel?


Here ya go, Philidor.


----------



## Kreisler jr

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^By the way, BWV 1080, you may be aware of this, but it's your pick this week (by the end of tomorrow).
> 
> And on a completely unrelated note, here's some comic relief. I saw this sign in a thrift store today and thought the folks on this thread would appreciate it. I think my eyes are still bleeding (sorry for the crappy photo):
> View attachment 169327
> 
> 
> I think my favorite part about this is the fact that Thalberg is on there.


And that Thalberg is spelled correctly whereas Liszt and Schubert aren't. What kind of sign was that?


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## sbmonty

Listening to this recording of Crumb's Black Angels. Another first listen for me. Thanks for the choice!


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## Malx

A work I somehow have managed to miss so far - I'll give it a listen later in the week.


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## SearsPoncho

I remember the Kronos Quartet's recording of Black Angels was a big deal when it came out. I wouldn't go as far as to say their recordings had crossover appeal, but they were heavily marketed in the 90's and seemed to sell a lot of units in relatively unusual repertoire. I remember the first time I heard it it was kind of creepy and scary. I think they chant like Jason in Friday the 13th at some point. Then again, I haven't heard it in decades, so I might be confusing it with another one of their recordings. I saw them premiere one of Philip Glass' quartets and, well, it sounded like Philip Glass.


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## starthrower

Great choice,1080, as this one is augmented by some additional instrumentation but is still recognized as a string quartet. And that's the extent of the boundary stretching I'm in favor of for this thread. I'm not interested in nominating piano quintets or other types of chamber music. I was considering Black Angels last year before I chose the Honegger. Of the recordings I spent time with I favored the Miro Quartet uploaded above.

Black Angels is an anti war themed work and like all others of its kind has failed to persuade humanity to alter her destructive coarse. By coincidence I'm reading Vonnegut's Slaughterhouse Five this week which is a very entertaining type of anti war novel. It was suggested by one of the characters the he ought to write an anti-glacier book because those were about as easy to stop as wars. Nevertheless I'm glad that both Vonnegut, and Crumb persisted in their efforts to create these two lasting and thought provoking works for our warlike species to experience in the relative calm of our living rooms.


----------



## HenryPenfold

sbmonty said:


> View attachment 169355
> 
> 
> Listening to this recording of Crumb's Black Angels. Another first listen for me. Thanks for the choice!


This is my favourite recording of the work - I also have the Kronos (so favourite from 2 🤣)

Edit: OOPS! I've been reminded that I also have the Cuarteto Latinoamericano recording - the first CD of this work I ever bought!


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

It is clear that this work is truly special, an out of the ordinary piece of music, not just string quartet. I'm not too convinced by Crumb's music in general, but this is as close to a masterpiece as he wrote, and perhaps it is indeed a masterpiece. I've just listened to Diotima's and Kronos' recordings. There are a few more left to explore, but out of these two I'd definitely go with the french guys, never been a fan of the Kronos Quartet.


----------



## HenryPenfold

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> It is clear that this work is truly special, an out of the ordinary piece of music, not just string quartet. I'm not too convinced by Crumb's music in general, but this is as close to a masterpiece as he wrote, and perhaps it is indeed a masterpiece. I've just listened to Diotima's and Kronos' recordings. There are a few more left to explore, but out of these two I'd definitely go with the french guys, never been a fan of the Kronos Quartet.


Strangely, I prefer his other works to the quartet (Songs, Drones, Refrains of Death, Vox Balaenae etc)


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> Strangely, I prefer his other works to the quartet (Songs, Drones, Refrains of Death, Vox Balaenae etc)


Vox balaenae is the probably the only other work of his besides this quartet that I can say that I like 100%


----------



## Bwv 1080

Ancient Voices of Children is a great piece


----------



## Mandryka

This one seems head and shoulders more intense than all the others I've heard










I'm sure there's all sorts of fascinating geeky formal numerological kabbalah things happening in the score, but for me the main interest of the piece is the sense of flow from one section to the next. I don't know how he does it!

Strange to hear the Dies Irae in there, sent me off to a piece from 10 years later, Gay Guerrilla.


----------



## starthrower




----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Excited to spend some time with this one; I think the last time I heard it was back when contemporary music hadn't really clicked for me yet and I was rather baffled. But I remember thinking that the experience of watching a performance, with all those extended techniques and added instruments, was much more rewarding than the purely auditory method. This is one of those rare instrumental works, like a Mahler symphony, that is also a piece of theater in the sense that the audience is embarking with the musicians upon a daring and often turbulent journey.


----------



## hammeredklavier

"Uta Schwiemann writing for TelDec has stated about the composition that, "Crumb deeply venerates the Spanish writer Garcia Lorca and has set many of his texts to music. The spiritual aspect of his music is particularly striking. His close identification with music of earlier periods is especially pronounced in his latest works, in which he reverts to traditional forms. In this process musical quotations, modified by Crumb's specific style, have a particular significance. Among the quotations in _Black Angels_ is the theme of the second movement of Schubert's 'Death and the Maiden" Quartet, to which he gives an entirely new character. The absence of the third makes it reminiscent of a mediaeval sequence. Combined with an acoustically contrived impression of distance, this passage acquires an ethereal quality, with the redemption chorale referred to above fading away into nothingness. Total desolation comes to the fore, reinforced by a reminiscence of the "Night of the Electric Insects" on the first violin.""


----------



## Mandryka

I’m enjoying dipping into Crumb some more, though not so much _Black Angels_. The ones that have caught my imagination are _Songs, Drones and Refrains of Death, _the_ Madrigals_, and of course _Spanish Songbooks_. _Black Angels_ is nice enough, but seems to be too easily known, too simple: hear it once and you almost know what’s coming when you hear it again. I don’t like that.


----------



## Enthusiast

I was listening to Black Angels in the Brodsky recording which is coupled with Schubert's Death and the Maiden yesterday. I found myself getting much more out of the Brodsky's Schubert - a recording I hadn't heard for years (there are, after all, so many recordings of the work) - than I did the Black Angels. It is a work that seems too easy and rather gimmicky - almost like a pastiche of modernism - and I think it is a mistake of the record company to pair it with the Schubert. OK, it quotes from the Schubert but as far as programming is concerned I think it works better in the mixed Kronos disc where its short duration is just another coloured light on a disc that has Shostakovich 8 at its heart. 

Black Angels was my first experience of Crumb and did not encourage me to explore the composer further. Perhaps that is unfair of me.


----------



## starthrower

I would encourage you to explore further because Black Angels really doesn't give one an accurate indication of what Crumb's other works are like. It's definitely not more of the same.


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## HerbertNorman

I listened to the Kronos Quartet playing it yesterday on the disc with the Shostakovich on it too... I try to listen to the work in the light of what it was composed for , at least what the composer had in mind... I don't think it represents the whole of Crumb's work ... which admittedly I know not enough about. But I know enough to hear that Black Angles is completely different to , for instance "Echoes of Time and the River" ...
I think it is a daring work and it touches me when I listen to it in a special way. 
I agree with @Enthusiast 's remark that the combination with Shosty's great 8th SQ works reasonably well.
I finally had the chance to listen to the Prosper Van Eechaute SQ too... This one was an enjoyment to me tbh ... daring choice and an interesting one as I got to know a new work...


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## Malx

This is a quartet I have long been aware of but until this week hadn't taken time to listen to. First impressions weren't great - I now think this was down to the Kronos Quartet being too full on and in your (my) face, however there was a seed planted that made me think there is more to the piece.
I moved on to two other recordings via Qobuz the New York String Quartet and a recent live recording by the young French quartet Quatuor Hanson - what a difference, yes the aggression was there when required but there seemed to be more depth and nuance to both interpretations. I felt that in some ways this is a strange work I can't quite put my finger on what makes me think that. 
It did cross my mind when listening to it, if this isn't too oblique a thought, that it reminded me in some ways of late sixties psychedelic rock. Maybe 'Floyd like, if you will, it wouldn't have been out of place on a side of Ummagumma and the yelling/shouts did remind me of a section of Atom Heart Mother.
I'm away to rinse my ears out!
I ended up being very happy to have made this works acquaintence this week - nice choice.


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## SearsPoncho

Yes, this IS the Jason Voorhees piece I remember! It was even dated "Friday the Thirteenth" I actually liked the "Devil" music. It seems that the devil did go down to Georgia and learned a few things from Charlie Daniels, although it proceeded Charlie's hit. I believe most of us have heard our share of extremely dissonant music, and dissonance itself is not enough to scare us. I occasionally like to walk on the wild side and hear something like Nono's _Como una ola de fuerza y luz, _just to "go there."

So, is it worth listening to? I would answer that with a resounding yes! No, I'm not going to play it every day or month, but, just like Nono, I like to occasionally walk on the wild side. To be honest, it didn't seem nearly as radical as when I first hear it in the 90's by the Kronos Quartet. It's a worthy memorial and representation of its time. Not necessarily my cup of tea, but an outrageous change of pace which is sometimes necessary.

P.S. The Schubert was an interesting touch.


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## Carmina Banana

I listened to the Miro quartet and then the Kronos. 

I did not like certain aspects of the Miro. The voices were very loud. It seemed out of proportion to the rest of the performance. Overall, it kind of grated on my nerves. 

Here is my take on the Kronos: 

Their recordings, Black Angels included, are heavily produced. I find myself to the technique of the recording as much as the technique of the instrumentalists. Having said that, I really like this recording. I guess you could point out that Crumb called for “electric strings.” What does that mean? They are still acoustic instruments, just outfitted with pickup mics. In a live situation the instruments would be louder. In a recording, it is a moot point. But maybe this willingness to electrify the instruments for a live performance gives the producer license to monkey around more? 

At any rate, I think there are some really magical moments in the Kronos recording. I have been revisiting sections that I like.

I think somebody mentioned how this is a good piece to watch as well as listen to. I am finding it fascinating to compare different live performances of this piece! It makes you realize that a score like this, though meticulous, is open to a lot of widely varied interpretations. Some renditions on YouTube are less than stellar, but it is still really interesting to see when the effects kind of fizzle. It makes you respect the performances that really come alive.


----------



## Burbage

_It's Friday!_

In 1970 George Crumb was not doing badly. He had a nice, secure job, and commissions were rolling in. One of which, a couple of years before, had landed him a Pullitzer which, I’d imagine, gave him some confidence in the directions he was taking. One of the commissions he received was from the Stanley Quartet, who were then lodged at the University of Michigan, and it was that which persuaded Crumb, after he’d accepted it, to “rethink the concept of what a string quartet really is”.

On the face of it, that way madness lies. For a string quartet is, more or less by definition, four players of stringed instruments, playing those stringed instruments at more-or-less the same time. It’s not a concept that would seem to take a heap of thinking, or re-thinking, to understand. Yet, as this very thread has occasionally demonstrated, the world is not devoid of benighted souls asking themselves whether that definition might be extended to “and a soprano”, in the way the astronomical world is sometimes exercised by those who, faced with the phrase “natural satellite of Earth”, can’t help adding “made of cheese”.

The reason for this isn’t clear, but the only string quartet he’d written before he’d let vanish almost without trace, so I presume he’d had a hard time with it. This time round, happily, Crumb’s seems to have generously under- rather than over-thought the concept, and mercifully leaves us with a quartet of four musicians who, most of the time, get to keep their bows and use musical instruments, including their voices, rather than play with gloves and tea-towels or take to juggling. We must thank Heaven for such small mercies.

Happily for the spirit of diversity, if nothing else, we can also thank Hell. This is because Crumb, after a bit of pondering, decided, like just about every artist before him, to structure the work around a theme of “Good versus Evil”, plundering deathly Schubert and grim Tartini and all the merry medievalists, so we get “_Death and the Maiden_” and “_Dies Irae_” and, perhaps, a nod to Penderecki’s “_Threnody for Victims of Hiroshima_”. What we can’t thank, except in a diffuse zeitgesity way, is the Vietnam War for, though he finished by adding the words "finished on Friday the Thirteenth, March 1970 (_in tempore belli_).", there was more of the thirteenth in the work than belli, which he seems to have added after, on reflection, deciding it chimed nicely with the unsettling feeling in an America reeling from its own foreign policy, much as Haydn’s similarly-subtitled _"Paukenmesse_" reflected the nervous mood of an Austria whose annexed Netherlands, annexed from the Spanish, had just been annexed by the French, and was now facing annexation itself.

Now, it might seem odd that an effective anti-serialist might dabble in numerology but, as Crumb refreshingly admits, “this business of 7s and 13s came into the music. I don't remember what they even mean. It was more technical, structural. I got carried away with the Friday the 13th thing.” Of course, every composer needs some sort of hook, as every cook needs a spoon, and, there is something medieval about the tredecimal superstitions which have rattled down the ages to confuse couriers and serve up cheaper flights, even in our wholly rational age of leisure, prosperity and peace. So I guess it’s that. But if Crumb didn’t know, it’s probably best I don’t guess, but instead take comfort in the thought that, on this point at least, I know as much as the composer.

All that aside, what do we end up with? I don’t know, so I listened.

The first time round I listened to the serious Miró Quartet on BWV1080’s supplied YouTube link. It’s always nice to see the score, even though it makes me feel like a dog watching a card trick, and it gave a sort-of-sense of the theatricality of the thing. As with the Saariaho (and to a much lesser extent, the Kagel), I think this is hard piece to get much from in recordings, but it’s certainly interesting. I don’t think I understand the section titles, or really notice the implicit tensions, spiritual, political or numerical, but I do find it an intriguing journey, like a trip on a train through the Alps, with it’s grinding and rattlings and clankings, dark tunnels and sudden spectacular visions*. I doubt that’s entirely what Crumb intended but, as I’ve said before, music is a conspiracy of which the audience must be a part, and audiences can contain saboteurs. And Crumb himself was of the mind that it was up to the audience to “make the connections”, with “poetry, landscapes” (and, ominously, “other things”), so I barely feel too guilty about that, even if those “other things” extend to, in the counting sections, shades of “_Sesame Street_”.

That said, the next thing I did as a good saboteur, was dig out the Quatuor Ardeo, who we last met in Koechlin, and whose rending of Schubert’s Rosamunde merited a slot in Merl’s diplomatically-unlisted “Don’t Bother” category. That recording was released as part of an album portentously titled “_XIII_” (which seems to have been received as well as you'd expect by apparently superstitious reviewers) in which the Ardeo claims to make all the connections on behalf of the bewildered, pairing the Schubert (albeit the “wrong” quartet, though they also play an arrangement of the “D&M” song) with Monteverdi and Purcell as well as Crumb’s “_Black Angels_”. It’s been a year or two since I’d last listened to it, when I’m not sure I quite saw the point, but I gave it another spin and found it a more persuasive programme, once I’d consciously ditched everything I thought I’d known or read about the Crumb, and I’m not sure that their female voices aren’t more apt than their more ebullient competitors (a few more listenings, and I’d convinced myself entirely, but that’s the downside of familiarity).

I don’t know much else of Crumb, but I like this piece. It’s nicely balanced, and neatly distils the history of quartettery, from the 17th Century consort of viols to the electric edge of the 20th Century, with interventions from voice and tam-tam and glass harmonica that, for all my mutterings, seem utterly appropriate and skilfully done. So all that's left for me to do is thank BWV for reminding me of this, and the opportunity of giving the Ardeo another chance.

_* I have never been on a train through the Alps but would economically argue that imagination and music make the inconvenience unnecessary._


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I enjoyed listening to this work, although it is undeniably a harrowing and difficult listen at times. Even not knowing the programmatic/extramusical basis, there is so much anguish and suffering in this music. Desolation and fragmentation dominates the mood; even the more consonant, "spiritual" movements, though beautiful, felt lonely and hopeless to me, like an endless desert expanse without water in sight. Those who dislike 20th century music for this sense of despair and alienation certainly won't warm to this, but on the flip side, I can definitely see rock and metal lovers getting into classical music due to this. As I think someone pointed out, the sections where the electronically-amplified strings are screeching and sliding all over the place sounds like hardcore heavy metal shredding. The "demonic" movements with their vivid sound-effect evocations of fighter-jet whines and crashing bombs reminded me of watching an intense war film. Because of this I wouldn't want to revisit it very often, but I think it is factually a highly inventive and effective piece, with an incredible amount of variety and sparingly used extended techniques that, IMO, were in perfectly good taste and contributed to the atmosphere. Highlights for me were the "Death and the Maiden" quotation punctuated with strangely beautiful dissonant ornamentations, like looking at a familiar picture through a warped lens; the "Sarabanda de la Muerte Oscura" with its Renaissance evocations, and the truly spooky and addictive (in a Shostakovich-ian way) Danse Macabre. There is truly a remarkable amount of material here for such a short work, and it all contributes to a gripping narrative that, like a fast-paced, tightly-plotted novel; doesn't waste a single gesture and turns in a taut, sobering ride. A culturally important post-structuralist protest work and in many ways a brilliant one; I certainly wouldn't hesitate to call it one of the masterpieces of contemporary music. 

Next week's choice goes to *sbmonty.*

sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Malx
BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


----------



## Merl

I need a new project after finishing my Haydn 7LW blog. I'm sure SBM wont let me down. I think I've already picked mine for the week after (unless SBM nicks it).


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## sbmonty

I hope not Merl! 
I enjoyed the Crumb work. I had read about it in the past but never listened until this week. Another great experience. 

I've been pondering a few works. Late Haydn, Saint-Saëns, Janacek's No. 1 "Kreutzer Sonata", Langgaard's No. 1, but have decided on a composition that I was thrilled to discover. 

*Ernst von Dohnányi's (Ernő Dohnányi in Hungarian) String Quartet No. 2.*

It is a three movement work, around 26 mins in length, first performed in 1906. I think each of the movements are of high quality, with great melodies, a recurring motif throughout, plenty of pizzicato, and lots of agitation in the scherzo with a wistful trio. The final movement is splendid with an ethereal final couple of minutes that never fails to give me chills. 

There is a terrific description of the piece to read at Silvertrust's Chamber Music Guide http://www.chambermusicguides.com/pdf-guides/Guide-to-String-Quartets.pdf 
I'll quote from the article;
_"This is one of the greatest, if not the greatest, post- Brahmsian romantic quartet—a superb masterpiece. Nearly all who hear it agree. But sadly, very few are lucky enough to hear it live in concert—an incredible shame." _
I'm not sure if I agree completely, but I do love it. I hope you find it a rewarding listen if you're not familiar. As always, I look forward to your collective insightful comments.


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## Kreisler jr

This was probably the first string quartet ever in D flat major... (about 60 years later Shostakovich wrote another one in that key but I doubt there are (m)any others...)


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## Philidor

Kreisler jr said:


> but I doubt there are (m)any others...


Google knows it: d'Indy and Suk.


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## Philidor

First encounter.

*Ernö Dohnányi: String Quartet No. 2 D-flat major op. 15*

Kodály Quartet










What a nice late-romantic work! Thank you for pointing out this one. Great. Will find its place among Schönberg, Zemlinksy, Reger e tutti quanti.


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## Merl

Well, as predicted SBM, you nicked my quartet! Seriously it was a toss-up between this and another (which I'll now be going ahead with next week). I love this quartet and have a few recordings of it already, I hope others feel the same. 😁


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## sbmonty

Awe, I'm sorry Merl! It is a great work though. Looking forward to your thoughts. I have the Takács recording, but I'd like another with Quartet No. 1. I have No. 3 with the Nash Ensemble.


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## Kreisler jr

Great choice; my favorites of Dohnanyi are his piano quintets and the sextet but the quartets are very nice pieces, esp. 2+3. I have the Fine Arts Q. on aulos/SWR (rec. 2002).


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## Merl

Btw, I put together this list for the Dohnanyi quartet, last week. Think it's pretty complete.

Portland
Rondo
Flonzaley (1929)
Takacs (1996 & 2019)
Kocian
Curtis
Lyric
Audubon
Fine Arts
Guarneri
Kodaly
London String Quartet
Gabrieli
Stradivari (1952)


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## Enthusiast

I only have this one and am hoping this thread will not send me into the market for more! It is a very long time since I listened to it.


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## Merl

Btw, for those without streaming I've linked the Audubon, Lyric and Kodaly accounts below. 



https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k5lsycUelaOyPnklS0MGyTGv9b4JfMPQE





https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_k_NCwl3NSAguuQ71txOpm6dtfeE3iCxv4





https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nGqDvJqP301pmO-UDH8auibRjVuNfoqFE



That Gabrieli is the only one I've not heard, Enthusiast.


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## Art Rock

The Gabrieli is the one I have as well, so I'm curious to see how it fares.


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## SearsPoncho

Great choice. I'm just familiar with the Sextet, Trio and a few other odds and ends, but not the quartets. From what I've heard, this is a composer who really can be called "underrated," without the hyperbole.


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## Merl

Yay, I found the Gabrieli on my HD (note to self, 'Dohnanyi' doesn't begin with a 'B'). Will give it a listen tomorrow. Didn't even know I had it.


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## hammeredklavier

The second movement made me dance, literally (almost to the extent the overture from Purcell Dido & Aeneas did).


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## HerbertNorman

I've got the Chandos recording by the Gabrieli too ... I contemplated choosing this one the last time too tbh ... Good choice SBM !!! Looking forward to listening to it again


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

hammeredklavier said:


> The second movement made me dance, literally (almost to the extent the overture from Purcell Dido & Aeneas did).


I didn't get off my seat, but I moved my legs and head around a bit (at least that's the Kodály version, which is the one I listened to). Though I prefered the 1st movement above the other two, and the 3rd before the 2nd one too. Introspection before extraversion for me, most of the time. It did disappoint me a bit, because based on the initial notes I expected a much more lyrical 1st movement, this lyricism and beauty came and went, something similar happened in the 3rd. I have to listen to it a bit more before deciding if it all adds up to something, but my gut tells me it does.


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## Merl

I've always loved the 1st movement of this work. It's what hooked me in on my primary listen and is my favourite section. The 2nd movement starts off well, with its driving rhythms and probably could have been developed more but its enjoyable. The 3rd movement grows on you on repeated listens (trust me) . Its a little fragmentary in nature and I'd have preferred a more vigorous conclusion with the andante placed further forward in proceedings as its not sufficiently strong to be the centrepiece of the movement, for me. Nevertheless, I still find it a very enjoyable quartet, overall. There are a few recordings that I feel do it far more justice than others, but I'm not going to discuss them now, however I will say that a few quartets struggle with intonation in this one (the biggest culprit being the Portland Quartet on their live cd).


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## Enthusiast

Posted in error: deleted.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> The last two symphonies (7 & 8 or 8 & 9 of "The Unfinished" and "The Great" as prefer) from this.


Nurse! Enthusiast has escaped again and he's posting orchestral stuff on the SQ thread. Please can you find him, give him his medication and return him to the correct ward. Btw, if my bed's empty I've escaped too.


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## sbmonty

hammeredklavier said:


> The second movement made me dance, literally (almost to the extent the overture from Purcell Dido & Aeneas did).


This got me listening to some Purcell!


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## Malx

Dohnányi's Quartet No 2, an interesting selection SBM and another I have no recordings of.
Unfortunately listening time has been extremely limited this week and will continue to be so over the weekend, however I did manage to find an hour or so this morning to stream three recordings - Lyric Quartet, Kocian Quartet & Guarneri Quartet.
While I really should spend more time with the piece before passing judgement on it my initial reaction is favourable, in fact more than favourable, this is a very enjoyable piece. The first and third movements are interesting and don't overstay their welcome and what can you say about the second movement - I find it to simply be fun and there is nothing wrong with that.
I haven't read anything regarding the background to the work so I am listening to the quartet purely as music with no idea of any story that may be related.
Of the three recordings I tried the Lyric seemed to miss the mark for me the other two seemed to have more life about them and on initial hearings I am leaning towards the Kocian's recording as one to rehear.


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## SearsPoncho

My initial impressions of Dohnanyi's 2nd:

Brahms meets Bruckner meets early Schoenberg? Well, not quite, but I can see how the comparisons could be made. It has that complex, chromatic harmony of early, tonal Schoenberg, as well as a meaty gravitas akin to Brahms. Occasionally, there is a very direct, plainspoken manner of musical speech; I don't know if it's the folk music which his famous pupils used, but it was something which sounded Hungarian, if that makes any sense.  The second movement was the most immediately enjoyable or accessible on 1st listen. What's not to like? It's one of those catchy, dance-like movements written in a time signature divisible by 3 (I think?). The slowly unfolding lyricism of the 3rd movement was more reminiscent of Bruckner, with thick textures, and that kind of incremental, 'we're getting there' approach that makes his slow movements so effective, although they require concentrated listening. It's interrupted by some urgent, dramatic music, which gives it a bit of spice, and perhaps hearkens back to the 2nd movement or something from the 1st. There's a warm, fuzzy, satisfying feeling upon reaching the quiet conclusion. Which leads me to the most difficult movement - the 1st. I liked it, but there was a lot to unpack in one listen. I can see how my enjoyment of the 1st movement would significantly improve with repeated listening, however, in the 1st go-around, I'm not sure if I found it constantly compelling. Was there enough glue and interesting transitional material to make a great, unified whole? Well, when the third movement concluded, I replayed the opening movement... and voila! It seemed to make much more sense and I enjoyed it. I would recommend other 1st-time listeners do the same. If you don't have time, just replay the first 15 seconds and I believe you will hear what is the foundation for the entire work! Yes, this is one I could really get into, but I need to hear it several more times, which means I'm probably buying a recording. By the way, the recording I heard was by the Fine Arts Quartet.


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## Philidor

Malx said:


> I am leaning towards the Kocian's recording as one to rehear.


After listening to the renditions by the Kodály Quartet and the Kocians, I second that.


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## sbmonty

I had a similar first listen experience, SP. I didn't know what to make of the first movement, but after enjoying the second and third so much, I went immediately back to the first and it seemed so familiar, like an old friend. I think the key to the piece really is those first few bars. 
By the way, the 3rd quartet is really enjoyable as well.


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## Kreisler jr

The interruption in the 3rd movement reminded me of the slow mvmt of Schubert's quintet. The contrast is not as sharp but the gesture quite similar.


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## Merl

I've blogged my thoughts in the link below but I'll echo the advice of playing this piece again back to back. It really does help this piece make sense. I really enjoy this quartet (and Dohnanyi's other quartets too). Great choice SBM.









Dohnanyi - String Quartet 2 op.15 (SQ review)


Dohnanyi's, three-movement, 1906 SQ2 is a fine work. I'm the first movement (my favourite of the entire quartet) I love how the Andante gets interrupted by that brief Allegro then an adagio does the same before we get to the business end of things. It's a clever premise. The presto 2nd...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Philidor

Op. 15, if my sources are correct. But thank you so much for your blog!


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## Merl

Philidor said:


> Op. 15, if my sources are correct. But thank you so much for your blog!


 Lol, apologies, misprint, rectified.


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## HerbertNorman

Good read @Merl , enjoyable quartet and worth the back to back listens... 
I enjoy the Dohnanyi repertoire in general actually... the SQs are all good imho... 
I listened to the recordings by the Gabrieli , the Kodály and the Fine Arts Quartet


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## Carmina Banana

Too busy this week to say much or do a lot of listening, but I thought I would chime in to say this is a wonderful big chunk of romantic goodness. I have seen Dohnanyi get represented fairly well in chamber music recitals, but I do think he is a composer worthy of more recognition. The last movement does seem a bit of a let down the first time you hear it, but you just have to realize, life is complicated. We can't always wrap things up with a cheerful rondo. That motive heard at the beginning and at the end is so heartbreaking. Dare I say yearning?


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## Carmina Banana

Merl said:


> I've always loved the 1st movement of this work. It's what hooked me in on my primary listen and is my favourite section. The 2nd movement starts off well, with its driving rhythms and probably could have been developed more but its enjoyable. The 3rd movement grows on you on repeated listens (trust me) . Its a little fragmentary in nature and I'd have preferred a more vigorous conclusion with the andante placed further forward in proceedings as its not sufficiently strong to be the centrepiece of the movement, for me. Nevertheless, I still find it a very enjoyable quartet, overall. There are a few recordings that I feel do it far more justice than others, but I'm not going to discuss them now, however I will say that a few quartets struggle with intonation in this one (the biggest culprit being the Portland Quartet on their live cd).


I have heard some reaching for notes as well. It would probably be easier if the composer had stayed in one key for more than two measures.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> I've always loved the 1st movement of this work. It's what hooked me in on my primary listen and is my favourite section. The 2nd movement starts off well, with its driving rhythms and probably could have been developed more but its enjoyable. The 3rd movement grows on you on repeated listens (trust me) . Its a little fragmentary in nature and I'd have preferred a more vigorous conclusion with the andante placed further forward in proceedings as its not sufficiently strong to be the centrepiece of the movement, for me. Nevertheless, I still find it a very enjoyable quartet, overall. There are a few recordings that I feel do it far more justice than others, but I'm not going to discuss them now, however I will say that a few quartets struggle with intonation in this one (the biggest culprit being the Portland Quartet on their live cd).


That sums up how I feel about the piece as well. It is the first movement that really grabs me.


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## Burbage

_It's Saturday. So I'm late._


In 1906, Erno Dohnanyi was at the end of his twenties and at the start of a teaching career in Berlin that he'd been invited to take up by a friend of a friend. Moving house was, presumably, no great hardship. He'd first left home a dozen years before and, since then, toured widely as a pianist, drawing the attention of the noise-making musical luminaries of the day. But this step anchored his career out of Hungary, and in one of the more conservative hubs of the central-european musical landscape.

This served his career well, mostly. Not that he didn't get into trouble, eventually, or have his detractors, but I imagine it gave him a degree of both stability and freedom. As far as I can tell, he wasn't short of money, thanks at least in part to his performing career, and perhaps didn't need the work for sustenance, doing it instead because he found it interesting. These days, that would make an HR manager shudder with doubts, but I guess the demands on professors were subtly different back then.

Perhaps that was why, when the authorities, finding no musical axe to grind, asked him to 'adjust' the personnel of his departments and ensembles he felt able, like Bartleby the Scrivener, to prefer not to. And, if they insisted, he simply closed the relevant department or ensemble, resolving the problem instantly.

It's a curiously mulish strategy, and doubtless infuriating, but it's also very simple and effective. I'm reminded of the version that's since been adopted by tax-planning consultancies, who aim to frustrate the authorities while preserving a highly respectable public reputation by collapsing liabilities into companies that simply cease to exist. It's the lazy magic of people who'd rather think of other things, be they musical or bonus-related, but magical nontheless.

None of the above is necessarily relevant to this week's quartet, except that it seems to have been written for the sake of itself. Professors of composition will, I imagine, feel obliged to write things, but I also imagine they can more-or-less choose what to write. Some may have a didactic purpose, but I'm not sure this does, despite its curious structure and merrily cyclic ways.

It's very Brahmsian, with all its counterpoint, chorales and twisting melodies, but it also moves forward. Compared with Webern's effort, it might sound old-fashioned but Reger, Nielsen, Sibelius and Taneyev were all still busy around this time, and Ravel's bouncy number was less than three years old. Dohnanyi was forging ahead, but extending an existing road, rather than trying to build a new one in the middle of nowhere.

For my money, it's a very fine quartet, and I think it works very well as a whole. The movements are clearly related to each other (though, as for others, it took me a few listenings to realise how related they are), so I'm not sure there's much mileage to be had from picking any out, though the central, most distinctive, _Presto acciaccato_ appears to do a lot of clever, possibly humorous, work in linking the outer movements. It's also the only "_acciaccato_" I'm aware of, probably because 'crushed' or 'bruised' doesn't make obvious sense in the context. Not until you listen to it, that is. And then it becomes clear, in the way one of Escher's pictures looks clear, until you look at it again.

So, for all Dohnanyi's cast-iron political principles, and pig-headed way of dealing with them, his musical imagination seems broader and more intricate than I'd imagined on the basis of the few pieces I've previously heard. In the grand scheme of things, despite a long and industrious career, he didn't leave a big corpus of work, but whether that's because he preferred to perform and teach, or felt that performing and teaching the work of others was a necessary preparation for composition, I don't know. But on the evidence of this, and in music at least, he had an inquiring and revelatory mind.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Dohnanyi was a very nice listen. I like pretty much anything in my favorite key of D-flat major; it always conjures up evocations of transcendence and bittersweet longing (think Barber’s Adagio, the finale of Mahler 9, Clair de Lune, and the trio from Der Rosenkavalier). What I particularly like here is Dohnanyi’s distinctive voice. He mixes neo-Romantic fervor with a folksy twang, often very much like Bartok without the savagery. For this reason, I concur with others that the first movement is my favorite. Though the scherzo was rather like a filler, the finale with its solemn Brucknerian aura, which emerges from its conflict with insouciance as an oceanic calm, is a delight. Every time I revisit these lesser known composers, I’m reminded that I had previously explored them a bit, but have neglected them since under the overwhelming stacks of music that I have prioritized. Pieces like this encourage me to move out of my handful of comfort composers and get a taste of what the “mainstream” watchdogs of the canon have left behind.

Merl will be our next nominator, but something tells me he is already hard at work making his choice


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## Philidor

Allegro Con Brio said:


> something tells me he is already hard at work making his choice


I have no doubt that the experts contributing to this excellent thread will reveal hidden gems over and over ...


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## Merl

Not a 'hidden gem' but my choice for this week's quartet is *Britten's String Quartet 1 op.25*. Some people view his first quartet as the weakest of the 3 numbered quartets but it's a piece I've always loved and especially that wonderful, diatonic 1st movement with those tremulous violins. Gorgeous! Commissioned by the American patroness, Mrs Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge (Britten was paid a very respectable $400 - the equivalent of around £8,000 in today's money) and premiered in 1943 by the Griller Quartet, it received positive reviews in the press of the time. I won't say much else about it at the moment but I will say there are a number of very strong performances on disc so you shouldn't struggle finding a good one. This quartet is a personal favourite, so I have multiple recordings, and I've been wrestling with posting it twice previously. It's waited long enough for its time to shine. 

There's an excellent performance from the Escher quartet below. 






And a (long-winded but interesting) lecture about the quartet below.


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## sbmonty

I’m excited by this one! I love the introduction of the first movement. Sends shivers down my spine, similar to Schubert’s amazing No 15. Great choice. I thought you might be choosing Bruckner this week Merl. At least that was my guess. Nice! I’ve considered this one a couple of times too.


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## hammeredklavier

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I like pretty much anything in my favorite key of D-flat major; it always conjures up evocations of transcendence and bittersweet longing (think Barber’s Adagio, the finale of Mahler 9, Clair de Lune, and the trio from Der Rosenkavalier).


What's your least favorite work? We'll transpose it to D flat for you.


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## hammeredklavier

Merl said:


>


Here's the full version:




Bruce Adolphe discusses Britten's Quartet No.1


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## Allegro Con Brio

Britten is such an odd composer for me. I love all of his vocal music that I've heard—I rank the operas, War Requiem, and song cycles among the best of the 20th century—but it's a night and day difference with the instrumental works, of which some I don't mind and some leave me downright mystified. The quartets have fallen in the latter category so far; I've revisited the 3rd a couple times since we did it in the thread's fledgling days and listened a bit to the other two and they did absolutely nothing for me. I recognize their formal brilliance, but they have failed to move so far. They are highly praised by many, so I'm excited to dive back into Ben's often befuddling but always distinctive and one-of-a-kind world.


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## Philidor

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I like pretty much anything in my favorite key of D-flat major; it always conjures up evocations of transcendence and bittersweet longing (think Barber’s Adagio, the finale of Mahler 9, Clair de Lune, and the trio from Der Rosenkavalier).


Apologies for acting as know-it-all, but afaik, Barber's famous Adagio is in B-flat minor, the relative key to D-flat major ...


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## maestro267

Excellent choice. I look forward to listening again, having recently picked up the three Britten quartets.


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## Chilham

Excellent. I bought this only last week (Doric Quartet) and haven't listened yet. Top choice Merl.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Not a 'hidden gem' but my choice for this week's quartet is *Britten's String Quartet 1 op.25*. Some people view his first quartet as the weakest of the 3 numbered quartets but it's a piece I've always loved and especially that wonderful, diatonic 1st movement with those tremulous violins. Gorgeous! Commissioned by the American patroness, Mrs Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge (Britten was paid a very respectable $400 - the equivalent of around £8,000 in today's money) and premiered in 1943 by the Griller Quartet, it received positive reviews in the press of the time. I won't say much else about it at the moment but I will say there are a number of very strong performances on disc so you shouldn't struggle finding a good one. This quartet is a personal favourite, so I have multiple recordings, and I've been wrestling with posting it twice previously. It's waited long enough for its time to shine.
> 
> There's an excellent performance from the Escher quartet below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a (long-winded but interesting) lecture about the quartet below.


Oh, but it _is_ a hidden gem! Hidden by many of Ben's other great works. And when we talk about his string quartets, it's usually the second, from 1945.

I've listened to #1 three times over this morning and I'm reminded what a wonderful work it is (also listened to #2 & #3).

Britten is a desert island composer for me, and his music was all around me as I grew up. I distinctly remember the sad repot of his death on the news in 1976. My memory tells me that it was when I came home from school that day. But he died on a Saturday and I didn't go to school on a Saturday, apart from detention (which was fairly regular)! Memories aren't to be trusted....... or the news came out a couple of days later on the Monday.

EDIT: I also have a strong memory of Copland's death in 1990 on BBC News - but recently nothing about Birtwistle, for example. Maybe The BBC has shifted its focus as to what is newsworthy....


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## SearsPoncho

Britten is the only classical composer or musician I first became aware of through a series of interviews, before hearing a note of his music, which meant that my first impression of Britten was tainted by some derogatory comments he made about other composers I admired, particularly Brahms. Because of this unfortunate introduction to the man, I kept my distance from his music for a few years before eventually purchasing a small sample of his works, including the Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes, the Sinfonia da Requiem and the Spring Symphony. I'm sure a boatload of the composers and musicians I love would have also gotten off on the wrong foot, for me, had I read quotes or bios before hearing their music, but the fact is that he is the only one. It's easier to forgive or ignore a composer's views after falling in love with his music, and I (and probably many others) do that all the time with instrumentalists and conductors. In time, I actually became a big fan of Britten the pianist and conductor. I do remember liking some of those initial recordings I purchased, particularly the Peter Grimes.

So, Merl, thank you for giving me the opportunity to reintroduce myself to Britten the composer. I heard the first movement you posted and liked it very much! I look forward to hearing the rest, and I do realize that at least half of the composers and musicians I admire would have made a much worse first impression than Britten had I known their views and opinions on this or that, before hearing their music. 

....by the way, Happy Fathers Day!


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## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> Britten is the only classical composer or musician I first became aware of through a series of interviews, before hearing a note of his music, which meant that my first impression of Britten was tainted by some derogatory comments he made about other composers I admired, particularly Brahms. Because of this unfortunate introduction to the man, I kept my distance from his music for a few years before eventually purchasing a small sample of his works, including the Sea Interludes from Peter Grimes, the Sinfonia da Requiem and the Spring Symphony. I'm sure a boatload of the composers and musicians I love would have also gotten off on the wrong foot, for me, had I read quotes or bios before hearing their music, but the fact is that he is the only one. It's easier to forgive or ignore a composer's views after falling in love with his music, and I (and probably many others) do that all the time with instrumentalists and conductors. In time, I actually became a big fan of Britten the pianist and conductor. I do remember liking some of those initial recordings I purchased, particularly the Peter Grimes.
> 
> So, Merl, thank you for giving me the opportunity to reintroduce myself to Britten the composer. I heard the first movement you posted and liked it very much! I look forward to hearing the rest, and I do realize that at least half of the composers and musicians I admire would have made a much worse first impression than Britten had I known their views and opinions on this or that, before hearing their music.
> 
> ....by the way, Happy Fathers Day!


Good job you didn't read what he had to say about Puccini!!!


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> Good job you didn't read what he had to say about Puccini!!!


I probably did! I read those interviews in the '80's and probably forgot. Brahms is the only composer I remember.

By the way, so far(1st mvmt.) the music has that extreme 20th century emotionalism using traditional classical forms, at least as a template, that is somewhat similar to Shostakovich; then again, I'm just dipping my toes again in Britten, so it might take me a while before I get a grip on his style.


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## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> I probably did! I read those interviews in the '80's and probably forgot. Brahms is the only composer I remember.
> 
> By the way, so far(1st mvmt.) the music has that extreme 20th century emotionalism using traditional classical forms, at least as a template, that is somewhat similar to Shostakovich; then again, I'm just dipping my toes again in Britten, so it might take me a while before I get a grip on his style.


I concur. That's what hits me with this work - a modernist sensibility clearly couched in a traditional (classical) framework - which to my ear, is pretty much Britten all over. And that's what makes Britten's candidature as 'great' composer so strong - a contract with the past masters, contemporaneous appeal, and a legacy for future generations to enjoy....


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## Enthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Britten is such an odd composer for me. I love all of his vocal music that I've heard—I rank the operas, War Requiem, and song cycles among the best of the 20th century—but it's a night and day difference with the instrumental works, of which some I don't mind and some leave me downright mystified. The quartets have fallen in the latter category so far; I've revisited the 3rd a couple times since we did it in the thread's fledgling days and listened a bit to the other two and they did absolutely nothing for me. I recognize their formal brilliance, but they have failed to move so far. They are highly praised by many, so I'm excited to dive back into Ben's often befuddling but always distinctive and one-of-a-kind world.


I was the same. It felt like there was something missing in the Britten works that did not involve words and singing - they seemed a little hollow. I don't know how or why and I can't remember when but I eventually found myself greatly valuing several of his purely orchestral and chamber works. These days I rate and love the quartets and the concertos particularly and feel they can stand with the best that their times produced. But the anchor or focus of the voice and words with meaning still seem to me to have given him some extra freedom to explore his more abstract tendencies.


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## Philidor

Just listened to Britten #1 with the Dorics - excellent choice - thank you so much.


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## Merl

The reason I chose Britten was because I love his quartets and we have only covered the 3rd. I chose the 1st quartet over the more highly regarded 2nd because I'm in the minority of enjoying the 1st quartet more. In this quartet I must admit that I listen out for contrasts as this is a quartet full of them to my ears. Btw, Chilham, the Dorics were the last recording I got too and they are superb in the opening movement (listen to how those high notes float). Tbh, there are very few less than good recordings of this work and there's one I really love (and just got on download). I've actually just finished writing my blog review of this one but I won't post it till the end of the week as I'd like to hear if others have the same experience of these recordings as me and I don't want to influence others, either.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> The reason I chose Britten was because I love his quartets and we have only covered the 3rd. I chose the 1st quartet over the more highly regarded 2nd because I'm in the minority of enjoying the 1st quartet more. In this quartet I must admit that I listen out for contrasts as this is a quartet full of them to my ears. Btw, Chilham, the Dorics were the last recording I got too and they are superb in the opening movement (listen to how those high notes float). Tbh, there are very few less than good recordings of this work and there's one I really love (and just got on download). I've actually just finished writing my blog review of this one but I won't post it till the end of the week as I'd like to hear if others have the same experience of thes recordings as me and I don't want to influence others, either.


I'm going to stick with the Maggini set and focus more on the work itself rather than different performances.


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## sbmonty

I own both the Takács and Maggini. I will definitely will listen to both a few times this week. Then stream one or two more as recommendations pop up. Takács again currently. They never let me down. I love their sound.


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> I own both the Takács and Maggini. I will definitely will listen to both a few times this week. Then stream one or two more as recommendations pop up. Takács again currently. They never let me down. I love their sound.


There's no competition between those two recordings.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> There's no competition between those two recordings.





Merl said:


> There's no competition between those two recordings.


I have the Tokash (phonetic pronunciation) too, but what's wrong with the Maggini?


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I have the Tokash (phonetic pronunciation) too, but what's wrong with the Maggini?


Nothing, Henry. I just prefer others. Tbh, no one really messes up Britten's 1st quartet if I recall. There's a surprisingly good number of recordings of this quartet.


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## Enthusiast

I have recordings by the Belcea, the Doric, the Takacs and the Maggini quartets. I can't remember disliking any of these and think I can remember particularly liking the Doric ... but I'll play all four during the week and perhaps a few others by streaming if I get up a head of steam.


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> EDIT: I also have a strong memory of Copland's death in 1990 on BBC News - but recently nothing about Birtwistle, for example. Maybe The BBC has shifted its focus as to what is newsworthy....


Well what do you expect Henry, after all Birtwistle wasn't on 'Strictly Come Dancing' as far as I recall.....

Nice selection Merl - I'll dig out my Belcea discs and stream a couple of others if time permits.


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## starthrower

I haven't listened to the Britten quartets in quite a few years. I have one recording by the quartet of the same name. Not sure if it is in competition with what is considered the top performances? I am a fan of Britten in general. His operas, violin concerto, among other pieces.


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## HerbertNorman

Another great choice @Merl , I really like Britten's SQs yet it has been so long. They are worth it and I will get out my recording by the Tákacs out first , as I remember it being very good...but I will listen to a few on streaming too if I find the time . Looking forward to it !!!


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## Enthusiast

I've listened to three recordings so far. The Belcea give us a lovely and 100% idiomatic account. The Takacs give us an excellent but rather serious-minded and severe account. The Doric account is something else and I find it a real thrill to listen to. It isn't as idiomatic as the Belcea but this is early Britten and perhaps they get nearer to his aesthetic in 1941. I wouldn't be without the Belcea or the Doric.


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## Merl

Excellent summary, Enthusiast. You'll smile when you see my round-up (I'll post it later). 

Edit: here's my round-up. I couldn't wait any longer. Haha.









Britten - String Quartet 1 op.25 (SQ review)


Britten composed his first numbered quartet in the summer of 1941 while staying with friends in California. Although described as his as ‘1st Quartet’ by Britten, he had written numerous quartets before in his youth and college days. His huge experience of quartets showed clearly in the...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Malx

I have listened to my Belcea disc three times over the last couple of days and can confirm I am still very happy with the choice I made after some sampling when buying a set of the Britten Quartets last year.
I have also streamed a couple of alternatives which I can't recall hearing as part of the sampling process - the Doric and Emperor quartets. I agree with Enthusiast's comments regarding the Doric recording - there is something that made me sit up and listen, very enjoyable. The Emperor recording is stunning in terms of sound quality but after a good start in the first movement I felt they lost their way a little - or perhaps my concentration slipped, I'll get back to them for another try later in the week.
As far the quartet goes I love the first movement but find the balance of long, short, long, short movements slightly odd - nonetheless this is a very decent piece even if at this stage I feel an overall preference for the second quartet.
I'll keep listening as I should have more listening time this week.

*Edit:* I can confirm my concentration must have wandered the Emperor Quartet's recording is very fine, does it displace the Belcea & Doric recordings Mmm not sure - but definitely another viable alternative.


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## SearsPoncho

Some quick observations after the first full listen:

The Shostakovich is strong with this one. That doesn't mean it's derivative; if I had heard Britten first, I would say the Britten is strong with this one when I listened to Shostakovich. I suppose most intense 20th century, dissonant, tonal music which could be described as 'romantic,' sounds like Shostakovich. 

I really liked that high string opening. I wonder if it appears later on in the work. It would be nice if it reappeared in the finale, but I couldn't quite catch it on 1st listen. Reminded me of Shostakovich's 2nd Piano Trio or the opening to every movement of Stravinsky's Violin Concerto (well, kinda). 

The 3rd movement is where each quartet can really assert their personality. Quartets are so talented now and can play anything, but this seems to be the place where they can distinguish themselves.

I'm gonna go out on an island and say I found the 4th movement/Finale the most intriguing. It has a Faure meets Copland vibe. There's that kind of nonchalant, casual throwaway character of the finales from Faure's late chamber works with the animated dance of a Copland ballet. I'm sure on 2nd listen I'll take that back, but I hope I don't. Interesting stuff.

Thanks, Merl, for successfully reintroducing Britten to me! Now, where do I go from here re: Britten?


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## maestro267

How do you guys know enough words to write whole-*** paragraphs on this stuff? I'm just here like music good.

Not a complaint by any means. I love reading people who know their stuff using fancy language to discuss music. Far better than I'll ever do.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

SearsPoncho said:


> I really liked that high string opening.


That high string opening is so so precious, definitely my favourite part of the work. 

I usually prefer Britten's 2nd and 3rd SQ's, but maybe I hadn't listened to the right versions of the 1st. I *vehemently* adhere to the very strong enthusiam for the Doric and Belcea Quartets' readings, especially the latter. 



SearsPoncho said:


> Thanks, Merl, for successfully reintroducing Britten to me! Now, where do I go from here re: Britten?


The other two numbered quartets, the song cycles (particularly Les illuminations, Serenade, Nocturne, Songs and Proverbs of William Blake, Winter Words, The Holy Sonnets of John Donne), Peter Grimes, the Three Cello Suites, and, above all, the War Requiem... those are my favourite works of his


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## Merl

I'm actually changing my blog post slightly as I can't pick between my top three any more after playing them all again today.


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## Enthusiast

^ Ha! Listening for the first time to the Emperor I was also wondering how I can compare it with the Belcea and Doric recordings. The Emperor is very very good, no doubt about that. It is certainly not less good than those two but I was not sure about better.


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## HerbertNorman

I'm really enjoying the Britten this week. The Emperor recording of the first three SQs really is good . As some of the others have mentioned I preferred the 2nd and 3d Qs , but this first has really grown on me. The Belcea was the best rendition I have listened to this week imho


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Ha! Listening for the first time to the Emperor I was also wondering how I can compare it with the Belcea and Doric recordings. The Emperor is very very good, no doubt about that. It is certainly not less good than those two but I was not sure about better.


Which is why I changed my blog post. After another few listens I can't put an ant's nail-file between them. Loved all 3 of them.


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## Merl

It's nice to hear so many positive comments about the Britten 1st quartet. It often gets a much shorter shrift than the other two quartets and yet I actually prefer it to the 3rd (but not the 2nd). The best thing about the Britten Quartets is there are so many fine recordings of them out there, recorded by generally very reliable ensembles but that only goes to show the regard Britten's music is held in by musicians.


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## Allegro Con Brio

No matter what you may say about Britten, it's undeniable that his music is _sui generis. _He belongs to that treasured coterie of composers, along with the likes of Ravel, Mussorgsky, Sibelius, Martinu, Janacek, et al in that he has a specific _sound_ that is absolutely unmistakable and perhaps un-imitatable; the result of an artistic technique and vision that is completely one's own. It's impossible to describe, but you know him when you hear him. I thoroughly admire him as one of the century's great musical minds. But it's just not a style that I much warm to in his instrumental works. He seems much more preoccupied with the possibilities of texture and pure sonority rather than melody and harmony. Most often he takes one very simple germ of an idea and manipulates it in ingenious ways, but I quickly tire of the monotony and pine for more lushness and lyricism (Britten hated sentimentality, so steered clear of anything resembling full-bodied Italianate passion), which the music often appears to take a turn toward, but then quickly veers away from. For example, the opening of the first movement is arresting—but hardly anything is done with it! It is repeated so often throughout the movement that its original beauty is quickly diminished. When the music turns energetic, it sounds to me like a great deal of undulating motion with little else, and I struggle to maintain attention. The same applies for the wisp of a scherzo and the finale. Britten was clearly going for the aural equivalent of Cubism—meticulously painting a whole through the accretion of similar parts—but it doesn't work for me. The Adagio tantalizes and sounds quite similar to one of his arias with that mysterious, tenuous, ephemeral air; but never achieves emotional depth for me. I think back to what Enthusiast said about lacking the anchoring voice and text to provide meaning, and that might be what I'm missing. I will keep trying. 

Is *Knorf *still around? You're up next.


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## Burbage

It's Saturday, which means I'm late again, and I really can't add much to what everyone's already written. It's an interesting quartet and one that I could happily listen to all week without getting bored. It's not, perhaps, an unalloyed masterpiece, in that there are bits where I keep thinking "that's odd". But the perky little humoresque isn't one of them, nor the third movement, which together prefigure the later, more familiar, Britten.

I'll agree with Allegro's points about the first movement. That's a little bit "in the beginning is my end and a good bit of the middle". And the postscript-that-isn't. I can sort-of imagine Britten in his shed, happy with the money, furious with the clock, trying to work it out like a crossword and finding some bars left over.

Likewise the final, which is a bit of a quilt of a thing, and not the most satisfying of conclusions. That said, it's nicely done and fits together well and seems as good as necessary, which is possibly what Britten found himself having to aim for.

That might seem a bit harsh, but I don't think familiarity does this quartet many favours, as familiarity can so easily drift into monotony. However, I will take gentle issue with Allegro's gripes about Britten's tendency to burrow into sonoroties, as that's one of the aspects I like, and there seems something a little subversive in the way the stolid woodiness of the viola and the histrionic antics of the cello are played off against each other though, admittedly, that may be as much a figment of my imagination as Britten's.


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## Merl

I messaged Knorf outside TC but he's not replied yet. I'm sure he won't mind me saying that he's been having a TC break but you never know, he may call back in to drop us his choice.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Sounds good. If we don't hear back from him by the end of tomorrow, *Malx *is on the docket.


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## Knorf

Hey there. A little bird told me you might want a string quartet choice from me, despite my recent lack of participation here. I apologize for that; the short answer is that I've been swamped. If you can wait until tomorrow, I'll look over the recent choices and have something for you late in the day. Late in the day from my point of view in the Pacific Northwest, note.

Or you can just say, "that dude's a deadbeat," and skip me. I'll check back tomorrow. I do miss this thread, cheers all.


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## Chilham

Edit for PUI.


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## Knorf

Alright, since no one said, "screw you, Knorf, you've missed too many meetings," here's my selection for the week:

*Amy Beach: *Quartet for Strings in One Movement, Op. 89 

I'll post some details about this really interesting and very original quartet a little bit later, but it's easily searchable in any case. There are a couple options for recordings. (I'll let you fight amongst yourselves as to which is "The Best"...😉 )

Enjoy!


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> Alright, since no one said, "screw you, Knorf, you've missed too many meetings," here's my selection for the week:
> 
> *Amy Beach: *Quartet for Strings in One Movement, Op. 89
> 
> I'll post some details about this really interesting and very original quartet a little bit later, but it's easily searchable in any case. There are a couple options for recordings. (I'll let you fight amongst yourselves as to which is "The Best"...😉 )
> 
> Enjoy!


A very interesting choice Knorf! 

I bought the Naxos CD with her piano concerto and Gaelic Symphony many moons ago, but never ventured much further. 

This is a work that is completely unknown to me and I look forward to familiarising myself.

Btw, you've been sorely missed..........


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## Merl

Nice choice, Knorf. I only have one recording (Sine Qua Non). It's a fine quartet and I was first introduced to it via an unknown quartet at a performance at Manchester Town Hall in the 2000s (I arrived late and never did find out who it was - there were various chamber ensembles there playing different works as part of a 'celebrating music in Manchester' festival). I'm sure people will enjoy this one.


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## Carmina Banana

I admire Britten. The reason he might not be on my desert island playlist has to do with an inconsistent doling out of beauty followed by unexpected and unwarranted bits of ugliness. It is confusing. 

I think it is tied up with his relationship with tonality. Rather than creating a system that expands tonality and recreates it—Hindemith, for example, Britten is, in one moment, naively diatonic and in the next, combining notes that just don’t belong together. Why did you have to ruin something so pretty? 

Having gotten that out of my system, I will have to say that the 3rd and 4th movements, as played by the Doric, were some of the most delightful listening I have had in a while. I actually love the last movement. I feel like it ties things together brings everything to a very satisfying conclusion. I think I audibly sighed at the end. A sigh of satisfaction.



I am looking forward to the Beach. All I really know are some songs.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Beach’s Piano Quintet is absolutely lovely, so based on my knowledge of that work this looks like a great selection. As per my understanding, she stands alongside Ives as one of the first major American composers.


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## hammeredklavier

Quartet For Strings (In One Movement), Op.89


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## Knorf

HenryPenfold said:


> Btw, you've been sorely missed..........


You're far too kind. I mean, surely this can't possibly be true. But thank you. 

I do hope folks give the Beach a real go. It's a lovely work, among her best in my opinion!

Here's a link on You Tube to a performance on Chandos by members of the Ambache Ensemble:


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## sbmonty

I think it's true Knorf. I always appreciate your insights and wealth of knowledge.
This is a lovely work. There is a recurring motif that seems really familiar to me, but I can't place it. Can anyone help me out? I want to say a Shostakovich symphony, but that's probably not it. 
I read up on her. Seems the melodies are indigenous, and she passed in 1944, so Shostakovich seems unlikely.


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## Malx

Another who will be getting sand in his ears for the first time this week. We are on a run of works I either know/knew very little about or nothing whatsoever - isn't this thread great!


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## Knorf

sbmonty said:


> Seems the melodies are indigenous...


Indeed, in her Op. 89 quartet, Amy Beach adapted and utilized three themes borrowed from the Inuit.


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## StevehamNY

Like Mr. Knorf, I've been away from this forum for a while (in my case, two major moves for my daughter plus finishing my latest), but I've been trying to keep up with the quartets. For this week, I realized how little I knew about Amy Beach and checked out her wiki entry. Toward the end of the biographical section, it says:

She was a member of Chapter R (New York City) of the P.E.O. Sisterhood. Late in her life, she collaborated on the "Ballad of P.E.O." with the words written by Ruth Comfort Mitchell, Chapter BZ/California.​​P.E.O. is a longtime women's organization dedicated to helping other women reach their educational goals. I know this because my wife is President of Chapter BQ (Kingston, NY) and a regular voting attendee at the state and national conferences, where they _always _play the above-mentioned "Ballad of P.E.O." To learn that Ms. Beach wrote the music for this piece made the world seem a lot smaller today.

And happily, I found the piece quite effective and wished it were longer!

(I hope everyone here has been staying safe and well, by the way...)


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## Merl

How nice to have two top guys back on the thread. 👍


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## HerbertNorman

Beach has a few works that have impressed me over the last few years , after I had started exploring more of her work.
This is certainly one of them
I am listening to that Ambache Ensemble recording on Chandos Records (CHAN10162 ) , which I bought second hand a year or so ago...


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## Merl

All nice recordings up to now (but one is standing out). Beach is a composer whose work, aside from this quartet, is a mystery to me but now I've reintroduced myself to this fine quartet I'm going to explore some more of her stuff. I like the 3 themes (that get progressively more interesting) a lot. I'll try the piano quintet later as it's well regarded, especially the Takacs recording which an acquaintance of mine informs me is the "dog's b*locks" (I have some classy friends).


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## SearsPoncho

The only Beach piece I know is the Piano Quintet. I usually compare 'new' works and composers to others, in order to get a handle on the style and describe it in a manner all can understand, but this doesn't sound like anything else I know. It still somehow sounds decidedly American, for reasons I can't explain or articulate. It sounds like a good bit of it would be played in the middle of a piano's keyboard, which gives it kind of an aural comfort food vibe. Then again, as the piece progresses, it alternates between unsettled and settled tonality...at least that's what it sounds like on first listen. Comfort and slight discomfort, coexisting. I look forward to what Knorf and others who are familiar with this quartet have to say about this intriguing, original music.


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## Malx

My previous experience of Amy Beach's work was that on the whole it was worthy without being extremely noteworthy, although I do enjoy the Gaelic Symphony from time to time. I will admit that I haven't spent much time with her chamber works probably because of that experience - however thanks to Knorfs selection I now have a bit more respect for her as a chamber composer.
This quartet for me is different to anything I had previously heard from her, not safe but not very radical, I sense a sad element in places yet it's happy in others - really it got me thinking what exactly is it? After reading a little I learned that she has incorporated some traditional Inuit music in her themes which works very well, all in all a fine discovery for me.


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## Merl

Malx said:


> This quartet for me is different to anything I had previously heard from her, not safe but not very radical, I sense a sad element in places yet it's happy in others - really it got me thinking what exactly is it? After reading a little I learned that she has incorporated some traditional Inuit music in her themes which works very well, all in all a fine discovery for me.


I'm not sure it needs a program or a theme. It's more a collection of very enjoyable Inuit melodies set in a loose musical framework. Great choice for this week, Knorf. Watch Malx choostle something with several thousand recordings cos he knows I'm on holiday next week.

PS. The Pavel Haas Janacek/Korngold/Suk gig last night was excellent but church pews are not the best seating for a performance. My poor @rse was numb after an hour of listening.


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## SearsPoncho

Mal, I'll also be on vacation next week. I wonder if anyone else will be away. If there's a bunch more, should we skip a week or keep plowing on?


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## Malx

Merl said:


> The Pavel Haas Janacek/Korngold/Suk gig last night was excellent but church pews are not the best seating for a performance. My poor @rse was numb after an hour of listening.


Just to confirm Merl's comments the PHQ were in fine form last night they certainly didn't hold back, great interpretations of all three pieces. That was my first String Quartet concert other than student gigs years ago - good as they were this was on a different level.
I didn't find the pews ideal either but maybe you just need a little more padding next time natural or artifical  an hour I just about coped with but much longer could have been a bit testing!



SearsPoncho said:


> Mal, I'll also be on vacation next week. I wonder if anyone else will be away. If there's a bunch more, should we skip a week or keep plowing on?


I'll leave that for ACB and/or the majority of regulars to decide SP.


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## Carmina Banana

I suppose there is nothing earth shattering about this piece, but I really enjoyed hearing it. Like much American music from the early twentieth century, there is something tentative about it. It wants to be about log cabins and native people (in this case, apparently Inuit), but is also strongly tethered to the European tradition. Even when a composer like Amy Beach was born in this country, the training was strongly European.

The opening (was this a conscious homage to Beethoven’s 1st symphony?) seems like a very personal statement more abstract statement; beautiful but not out of place for a composer like a Wagner, Debussy, etc., but when the folk tunes start to appear there is a sense of freedom and exploration and maybe a North American quality?

At times, I am reminded of Dvorak’s “New World:” modal tunes played in octaves and unisons. Not sure what that represents (we are folk people and don’t know harmony yet?). 

Anyway, I liked it and I like this whole era of composers finding their way in a “young” country. 

Hats off to the Ambache Ensemble. This is a lovely recording. I particularly like the violist. There is something about the vibrato I really like. Everyone seems very sensitive to each other.


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## Kreisler jr

Malx said:


> I'll leave that for ACB and/or the majority of regulars to decide SP.


The next ca. 8 weeks will frequently be vacation time for one or another participant. I'd suggest plowing through. One week pause would of course not be a big deal, but it may not be only one week during holiday season.
If someone whose turn would be choosing a piece is not available, they can just swap with another person.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I have little to add this week. This is a short, compact, tightly-crafted piece with a wonderfully clear and engaging narrative arch, possessing in full measure that elusive blend of originality and approachability. The opening had me a bit leery because it sounded like something out of Tristan und Isolde, and the late-Romantic Wagner-imitating crowd isn't always my cup of tea, but it turns out to be the perfect curtain-raiser and binding theme for the piece, as the contrast with the chipper folk melodies was perfect. I guess that's what is meant by the marriage of American and European elements. There's something about that simple but affecting Inuit theme that just sounds so carefree and free-spirited to my ears; like going for a country walk. The second half of the piece is dominated by a dotted-note march that sounds uncannily like one of Schumann's obsessive riffs, but it works because Beach sustains it all with lovely counterpoint and conversation between the instruments. Also, did anyone else notice the unusually prominent role of the cello in this one? It seemed to get all the juiciest parts here, but I'm not a string player so I don't know if it has more to do here than it usually does. Either way, it's great stuff. After that, I gave Beach's Piano Concerto a spin, and I have to say that I was awfully impressed by it—it's a good old-fashioned slice of opulent, swooning, Rachmaninoff-esque bliss that manages to avoid excess mawkishness and is full of brilliant scoring and melodies. I think the relatively recent revival of her music is well deserved, as she was far from a mere derivative traditionalist.

I agree with Kreisler jr that we should plan to move forward through the summer. If you are around to make a pick and continue hanging out with us, cool; but if you're on vacation, enjoy! I just got back from one myself—a lovely week spent with my family around the U.S.-Canada border in the northern woodlands by Lake Superior, where I spotted some moose and enjoyed wonderfully cool temperatures; although, as anyone from those latitudes knows, you need to apply seemingly a half can of bug spray every time you go outside unless you want to experience utmost misery.


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## hammeredklavier

Carmina Banana said:


> The opening (was this a conscious homage to Beethoven’s 1st symphony?)


Maybe. Or Haydn Op.74 No.1 or Mozart K.477


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## Merl

My thoughts on the Beach SQ recordings I've heard, below, if you're interested.









Beach, Amy - String Quartet in One Movement op.89 (SQ...


Beach's String Quartet (in One Movement) was started, in America, in 1921 and completed in the winter of 1929, in Rome. It's inspired by three Inuit tunes Beach used as themes, was performed a number of times during her lifetime and critics praised it highly, considering it a work of "unusual...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Burbage

_It's Saturday again, so I'm also late. This week, it's because culture, happily or depressingly, is inextricably political, and so I've been plagued with doubts. Writing as a privileged dilettante, surrounded by museums full of plunder (albeit at a bus-ride's distance) is, quite rightly, a sometimes uncomfortable business._

Amy Beach's _String Quartet, Op. whatever_, is an interesting piece and, I gather, not entirely characteristic of the composer, who took a whole decade to write it.

Musical success, like freedom and equality, can be as much a mark of merit as a mirage of marketing and, given the difference is a cultural, and thus subjective, it can be a bit hit-and-miss. Happily, Beach had two things in her favour. The first was a somewhat dictatorial mindset she’d honed as a toddler and which she maintained in the subsequent decades, later becoming, albeit briefly, an admirer of Mussolini (which may be relevant). The second was a formidable musical talent that had emerged very early which her parents, musical but authoritarian, wisely tempered such that Amy largely avoided the show-pony circuit and was able to develop through study (which is relevant).

By the time she started this quartet, Amy Beach was a well-respected and well-heeled composer, thanks largely to teaching and performing being largely set aside as a condition of her marriage, such things being at the time common in the land of the free. At much the same time, Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge, a similarly forthright and well-connected patron of the arts, who’d established a music competition a decade before, and seemed to have a particular interest in string quartets (which might have been relevant).

By the time she finished this quartet, her husband had finished, too, which left her a little freer to develop her career, and even to tour Europe, which she did until the prospect of war came about. Nevertheless, once the excitement had died down, she returned, spending a winter in Rome where she particularly enjoyed hearing Respighi's "Roman Festivals" (which also may be relevant).

Primarily, though, Amy Beach was American. Although, like all "art music" composers in America at the time, her musical background was soundly European, America wasn't immune to the same nationalistic impulses that were driving change in Europe, provided the nations in question weren't Germany or Austria, where the avante-garde was busily attempting to transcend music itself. In America, such impulses were unsteady, possibly because descendants of European settlers who felt uncomfortable with imported European conventions didn't really know where to turn. Culture tends to derive from slowly-evolved customs and rituals and landscapes, but if the land isn't yours, and you don't like the slowly-evolved rituals, what gives? The answer is to borrow from neighbouring cultures, but that can seem like pastiche and sound like appropriation, especially if it “romanticises” the cultures from which it's borrowed. Whether this is problematic is broadly a matter of perception, and I guess there's no real alternative, but I'm reminded of the somewhat awkward incidents in Bartok's song-collecting jaunts. I've also wondered if the folk-tunes scavenged by Vaughan Williams were quite as traditional as he presumed (Richard Strauss famously stubbed his toe on a folk tune that wasn't), and whether the Morris (or Moorish) tunes that underpinned that tradition really arrived via Spain and Alexandria.

Most of that is lost in the mists, so we may never know, unless some algorithmic wizard gets an AI to recreate every moment of the past. Perhaps it's more comforting to think of how our own times, decorated with publishers and replete with copyright, can never fail to attribute anything, and future generations will eagerly rush to concert halls to hear some brave stringwriter's album of "_Taylor Swift Quartets_". Beach's Inuit tunes, on the other hand, may or may not have been anything of the sort. Books of transcriptions had been published, and Beach had access to at least one (a work by Franz Boas, apparently), from which the three melodies seem to be (in part) borrowed, and I guess they must have seemed as authentically American tunes as anything.

Even if that mightn't be what they were. Some of may well have been borrowed, or adapted, with or from European whalers, Russian traders, South American sailors, African slaves, Moravian missionaries or just about anyone who'd been bothering the continent up till then. Boas himself notes similarities with Gregorian chant, and, in some sculpted items, a "European influence". But, if the patterns and shapes and rhythms suited the prevailing purpose, then that, as Bartok seemed to conclude, was surely the main thing. I don't think any proper surveys of Inuit songs, aided by recordings, were done until the middle of the 20th Century, and I've not yet found any that corroborate Boas. That might be for lack of trying, but most transcriptions (not necessarily Baos's) seem to have been re-imagined or mis-heard versions of 'small songs', often inappropriately 'corrected' or harmonised, the meaning of which was rarely clear (the lyrics, I gather, were often in ancestral language that, like chorister's latin, wasn't always understood by the singers). But all that is, from this distance, speculation and even the most seething doubts must eventually subside, or nothing would ever get done.

And so to my main question which is, as ever, _why_ she wrote this particular quartet in the way she wrote it. If we take the thematic material as a given, that just leaves us with everything else.

Part of everything else was, as I've hinted, the possibility of a Coolidge Prize. But, having achieved both recognition in Europe and among fellow (if anti-modernist) composers in the States, and having enough money to live comfortably in New York, it's unclear why she'd have bothered. But then, she didn't hurry over this quartet. She spent ten years on it.

I'm minded to speculate that the Respighi might have been a spark. Respighi, after all, had taken remarkable pains to immortalise the home of the Hawaiian Pizza by drawing on all its culture, ancient and modern, imported and home-made, making something distinctively Italian from within the European tradition. And that may have been all that Beach needed, a confirmatory spark as it were, that relit the intentions he'd originally had for her strange quartet, and prompted her to finish it off and launch it into the world as her idea of what a new American music might sound like.

Except that, although she finished it, it wasn't launched on the world. She arranged a couple of private performances, it's true, but she never had the work published. Which might simply reflect that the "Indianist" movement had, in the face of Ives and Dvorak, flagged. Now America was finding its own music, not mined from seams of annexed ancestry, but ladled from the melting pot the United States had become, and that seemed the way that audiences wanted to go. Beach herself seems happy to go along with them, and it seems the quartet wasn't wasted, but informed the way she composed from then on, and left us with a unique and interesting and well-crafted work in its own right.


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## Malx

On a sunny Sunday morning in Scotland it is my good fortune to make this weeks selection for the thread. I had been giving some consideration to a number of possibilities but decided to go with a personal favourite of sorts.

We have as a group previously looked at Schubert's last three quartets, and quite rightly so as they are very fine examples of the genre. But given that he produced many more quartets in his younger days, I thought we should consider how an example from that period stands up to our scrutiny.
Schubert's quartets were rarely played in concert during his lifetime, only no 13 I believe getting much recognition so as a body of work they got the attention of the musical world not as they were composed but as a group - in that situation I guess it would be harder for the early pieces to be given the same praise as the later, mature quartets.

Anyway enough blethering from me, my choice for this week is:
*Schubert, String Quartet No 4 D46.*

As I stated above this quartet is one I consider a favourite of his early pieces, I believe it to be an extremely fine work for a sixteen year old. There are plenty of recordings available on most streaming platforms - easiest way to find it is in complete sets.

Here is a YouTube link to a Melos Quartet recording with score.






Now I'm off to a barbecue in Edinburgh!


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## Merl

Great choice, Malx. Schubert's early quartets don't get enough respect, IMO. I've already reviewed all the Schubert Quartets, last year, (don't look) but I'll still be contributing. Don't expect this quartet just to be a jolly Haydenesque ditty, btw. It has a stormy darkness to the early movement (adagio-allegro), especially, that may surprise you for an early work from a teenager. Incidentally, there are two recordings from the Quatuor Modigliani that are different in interpretation and all the Schubert SQ cycles cover this one (Verdi, Melos, Diogenes, Leipziger, Kodaly, Taneyev, Auryn, Vienna Konzerthaus, Franz Schubert Quartet, etc) so plenty to go at. I won't say too much but check out the Arod quartet recording here, too. They have a live recording of this quartet on YouTube too. 😉

_







_


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## Enthusiast

I'm looking forward to getting to know an early Schubert quartet. In the meantime I should probably say that I don't have a lot to add on the Amy Beach work except that I quite liked it but probably prefer her other chamber music - conservative though it is - as I feel it is more true to Beach's heart. But none of it is really my thing.


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## StevehamNY

Malx said:


> I believe it to be an extremely fine work for a sixteen year old.


When I was sixteen, I was working at the paddle boat lake at Camp Dearborn, helping people get on the boats and then telling them how to steer. ("Up for right, back for left.") Oh, and the musical theme on that lake was David Bowie played at ear-splitting volume.

How far I've come, but the ability to create such a piece of music, at ANY age, is more a mystery to me than ever.


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> Here's a link on You Tube to a performance on Chandos by members of the Ambache Ensemble:


This is the recording I've been listening to, thanks for posting the video link.

I intend to listen to this work a little more over the coming weeks. 

It has really opened my mind to Beach's music, which based on the little (orchestral) that I've heard down the years hasn't made a huge impression on me. But I think this quartet is in a different league. In fact, I was even surprised that it was the same Amy Beach!

I think I should investigate her other chamber works........

Thanks for an excellent choice Knorf 👍


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Merl said:


> I won't say too much but check out the Arod quartet recording here, too. They have a live recording of this quartet on YouTube too. 😉
> 
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


I'd never listened to this work before and started with this. I liked the performance and the recording, very lively and crisp and energetic. The first movement is what grabbed me the most, some interesting choices in harmony and texture for a 16 year old in 1813. The 3rd and 4th movement were much more ordinary, especially the 3rd, at least at first listen. Will have to listen to it again because I think there's more to unpack from this. Nice choice for this week.


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## Merl

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I'd never listened to this work before and started with this. I liked the performance and the recording, very lively and crisp and energetic. The first movement is what grabbed me the most, some interesting choices in harmony and texture for a 16 year old in 1813. The 3rd and 4th movement were much more ordinary, especially the 3rd, at least at first listen. Will have to listen to it again because I think there's more to unpack from this. Nice choice for this week.


Agreed, the 2nd half of the quartet is far more 'traditional' but I love that 1st movement. Some brave and interesting choices for such a young composer. As I said in my round-up there's a couple of ensembles who mess the 3rd movement up for me (both of who weigh in with a pedestrian minuet).


----------



## Malx

I agree that the third movement is probably the weakest of the four however, for me, the last movement works very well - yes it is light, almost playful but I enjoy the transition from the slightly dark opening of the first movement to the youthful joy of the finale.


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## HerbertNorman

I like the work of Schubert , this quartet is one of those that I only discovered later as I started out with the later quartets ... Good choice!
The first movement works the best , thinking of how young the composer was when he wrote it... I listened to the recording by the Kodàly Quartet on Naxos.
The cheerful Allegro in the 4th movement is fun, like a folk tune, a pleasant listen!


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## sbmonty

Here is an link to a summary of Schubert's early quartets I found enjoyable. I loved the opening of the first movement. Eerie is what first came to mind. It reminded me of the largo in Langgaard's first string quartet.
Nice choice!

Franz Schubert The Early String Quartets--


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## Enthusiast

The Schubert is an attractive work and gives us more than I expected from early Schubert. I almost rejected it on the basis of hearing the Leipzig recording but fortunately I followed Merl's advice and tries out the Modigliani recording which I found much much better. It is beautifully played and has the life I expect from early Schubert. So, thanks to Malx for encouraging me to give this quartet some time and to Merl for introducing me to the Modigliani set.


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## Malx

Well, early Schubert either didn't get the musical juices flowing or the good weather in the UK had people following outdoor persuits - alternatively I could always use Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as an excuse!

No matter I still enjoyed playing a multitude of different recordings of this quartet.
The one thing that that jumps out for me is that the piece seems to benefit from the more energetic approach that the younger ensembles adopt - I really enjoyed both of the Modigliani efforts, the Arod quartet as is their way put in a fine performance brimming with enthusiasm, the Tanayev Quartet was also very enjoyable, the Leipzigers unfortunately at times sounded as if they were at a wake especially in the third movement.
Others sounded ok but lacked the zest that early Schubert quartets require to sound at their best.


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## HenryPenfold

I really enjoyed listening to this quartet this afternoon. A really interesting first movement that on a blind listen I would not have guessed it being Schubert. The fourth movement is also very good and acts as a contrast to the first movement.

Am I Heathen, or perhaps a Philistine, when I say I think it works best as a 2 movement work, 1st & 4th movements?

I shall be playing that way.........


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## Kreisler jr

This is one of the ca. 3 early Schubert quartets I had some recollection of.
Some time ago someone offered the unpopular opinion that Mozart's "dissonance quartet" was boring after the eponymous introduction; I disagree with that but one might be tempted to apply a similar idea to that Schubert quartet as the beginning and the contrasts of the first movement are probabl the most unusual thing about it.

I actually disagree with the dissing of the "lighter" movements. I think they are overall better as the first movement is ambitious but cannot really follow up this ambition whereas the 3 following ones don't try too much and succeed better in their more modest scope.
Still, I think early Schubert (symphonies and quartets) is among the weakest music unaccountably recorded a lot by prominent ensembles (who should really have better things to do). It doesn't really grab or sustain my attention for long.

I have two recordings, Festetics and Auryn. Of these I prefer the latter. The Festetics approach to turn this into a more serious piece only works in the first movement, otherwise I find them rather graceless. The Auryn are quite good. Theoretically I should also have the Taneyev I bought as a download years ago but I am not sure if I can access this with changes at Amazon...


----------



## Carmina Banana

Schubert is a very interesting composer for me. He is an amalgam of several things that, on the surface don’t seem to go together. He loves his folk dances—the charming laendler, sturdy waltzes and so on; he feels the need to create long, sometimes exhausting sonata form movements; and he writes songs that perfectly create mood and character with ingenious harmonic and motivic invention. 

I hear all of those elements in this quartet, but they are just hints of what is to come later in his career. The first movement doesn’t seem to know exactly what it wants to say but works very hard to say it. It reminds me of a long argument at the end of which the two parties realize they are arguing for the same thing. Folk elements abound. The menuetto is dance-like, but the finale is also plenty rustic. Schubert the song composer is present, to some degree in the andante. It has that nobility and simplicity of his songs with an occasional quirky harmonic moment. 

All of the ingredients are there, but the soup is not quite tasting like soup yet. So far, I find this one of those pieces that are interesting for sure, but might not make it to my ultimate playlist.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Schubert is, on most days, either my second or third favorite composer, depending on how Brahms fares on that particular day. But, paradoxically, one of the reasons why he speaks so intimately to me is the imperfection of his music. The common criticisms leveled against him—that he is unduly repetitive with little development, loves his melodies too much, is lacking in counterpoint skills, etc.—are all undoubtedly true. But this magnifies for me the sharp contrast in his work between his endless youthful élan and freedom and the probing, melancholic depths that he plumbs simultaneously. The faults in his style always betray the fact that was only given 31 years to carry out his doomed project, and one can only imagine what he could have given us if he had had decades more to hone out the flaws in his writing. But he broke the rules in order to offer us his unparalleled poetic insights, and we must accept this. Being juvenilia, the 4th quartet contains all the seeds of the mature Schubert, but it sounds a bit too much like a student work to me to be a matter for repeated listening. Doubtless there are lovely things in it: the first movement foreshadows both his great C major quintet in the hovering, ambiguous introduction and his equally great 15th quartet in the obsessive cello tremolo that dominates the movement, but everything just seems too studied and controlled in order to really take off. The second movement was my favorite. It's got a very Viennese-sounding tune (don't ask me how I got that perception...) that holds its own throughout, and the central episode with its chains of rising suspensions was an unexpected addition. In the minuet I liked the lilting waltz trio, and the finale is suitably fizzy, ensuring that the arm stamina of the performers is up to speed. Certainly an enjoyable listen in many ways and impressive for his age (I think only the Arriaga beats this in terms of the youth award on this thread). It's just that the man was so full of music that he was just absolutely cranking out quartets and piano sonatas in these formative years, which leads to a lack of distinction among the works from that time. I listened first to the Modigliani, which seemed to lack fun and vigor; then I turned to the ever-insightful Auryn, who hit the spot with spirited attacks and unbounded joy, truly respecting and relishing the work for all its frolicking felicities.

We haven't seen *BlackAdderLXX *in a while. You still around? Current order:

BlackAdderLXX
starthrower
annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


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## Merl

If you're interested this was my rundown of the Schubert 4 recordings in November.









Schubert - String Quartet 4 D.46 (SQ review)


From the dark, dissonant adagio beginning you sense that this is going to be an interesting quartet and Schubert didn't disappoint. Its very much a quartet of two halves (the darker, more serious 1st half followed by the light, Viennese, Haydn-like, energetic, 2nd half). It sounds like a...




www.talkclassical.com





Thanks for choosing some early Schubert, Malx. I must admit I really enjoy quartets 4, 8 and 10. Yeah they're not the later quartets but they're really enjoyable pieces. The fact that those 3 of the 'early' quartets have a fair few recordings suggest to me that I'm not the only one who enjoys these immature pieces. There's similar treasures to enjoy in some of Dvorak's quartets before the American (I'm a big fan of the 10th).


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## Kreisler jr

My favorite of the early Schubert is probably the g minor D 173, the most popular seems to be the Eb major D 87 (I have the latter 3 times as a filler).


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## SearsPoncho

Malx said:


> On a sunny Sunday morning in Scotland it is my good fortune to make this weeks selection for the thread. I had been giving some consideration to a number of possibilities but decided to go with a personal favourite of sorts.
> 
> We have as a group previously looked at Schubert's last three quartets, and quite rightly so as they are very fine examples of the genre. But given that he produced many more quartets in his younger days, I thought we should consider how an example from that period stands up to our scrutiny.
> Schubert's quartets were rarely played in concert during his lifetime, only no 13 I believe getting much recognition so as a body of work they got the attention of the musical world not as they were composed but as a group - in that situation I guess it would be harder for the early pieces to be given the same praise as the later, mature quartets.
> 
> Anyway enough blethering from me, my choice for this week is:
> *Schubert, String Quartet No 4 D46.*
> 
> As I stated above this quartet is one I consider a favourite of his early pieces, I believe it to be an extremely fine work for a sixteen year old. There are plenty of recordings available on most streaming platforms - easiest way to find it is in complete sets.
> 
> Here is a YouTube link to a Melos Quartet recording with score.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm off to a barbecue in Edinburgh!


Mal, I thoroughly enjoyed the Schubert, from start to finish. It's one of the few early Schubert works I occasionally listen to.


----------



## sbmonty

Really enjoyed it as well. I ended up listening to the first 8 this week. Loved it! Modigliani cycle.


----------



## starthrower

Apparently BlackAdder isn't available so I've been asked to pick a quartet. I've decided on a fairly contemporary work from 2003 composed by the late Jonathan Harvey (1939-2012). It's his Quartet No.4 with Live Electronics. This was recorded along with his three others by the Arditti Quartet for the aeon label. I thought of selecting one of his shorter quartets for easier consumption but I decided on this 30 minute mature work because to my ears it's Harvey's finest quartet. It may sound very abstract to more traditional listeners but I find that the music possesses a concrete immediacy and presence for the interested listener. The writing for acoustic quartet and electronics sounds organic rather than tagged on for effect which for me is a winning formula. I hope you enjoy it! If you don't have the CD to crank up on a good audio system I suggest listening with a good pair of headphones. Below are links for listening, and another web page containing Harvey's notes, and a short review.
String Quartet No.4 | Faber Music
String Quartet No. 4 With Live Electronics (2003) - YouTube


----------



## Mandryka

What is Bachelard’s vertical imagination?

It must be fun live, if indeed the sound becomes like a living presence. I think this aspect is lost at home and in stereo. 

It’s like the complete antithesis La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura, where the violinist moves around in plain sight, and there are vocalisations to remind you that it’s not a question of spirit but of body. 

Ha! Harvey is the priest challenging Nono’s Historical Materialism. 

Discuss.


----------



## HerbertNorman

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Schubert is, on most days, either my second or third favorite composer, depending on how Brahms fares on that particular day. But, paradoxically, one of the reasons why he speaks so intimately to me is the imperfection of his music. The common criticisms leveled against him—that he is unduly repetitive with little development, loves his melodies too much, is lacking in counterpoint skills, etc.—are all undoubtedly true. But this magnifies for me the sharp contrast in his work between his endless youthful élan and freedom and the probing, melancholic depths that he plumbs simultaneously. The faults in his style always betray the fact that was only given 31 years to carry out his doomed project, and one can only imagine what he could have given us if he had had decades more to hone out the flaws in his writing. But he broke the rules in order to offer us his unparalleled poetic insights, and we must accept this. Being juvenilia, the 4th quartet contains all the seeds of the mature Schubert, but it sounds a bit too much like a student work to me to be a matter for repeated listening.


Nice to read we completely agree on Schubert , Allegro...


----------



## Malx

starthrower said:


> Apparently BlackAdder isn't available so I've been asked to pick a quartet.


Probably working with Baldrick on another cunning plan.

Harvey is not a composer whose quartets I have heard so ears open, mind open(ish) - lets see how it goes.


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## maestro267

Does the electrician count as one of the quartet? It's not a quartet then, is it?


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## StevehamNY

maestro267 said:


> Does the electrician count as one of the quartet? It's not a quartet then, is it?


A fair question! And yet we still refer to Schoenberg's #2 as a quartet despite the addition of the soprano.

If I were drawing the line, and thank God I'm not, I would call any 4-string piece a quartet provided no other traditional instrument was added. So no fifth string, no piano, no glockenspiel. I'd allow a voice, maybe a Church bell, definitely an old-timey slide whistle snuck into the hall by one of the string players, and absolutely an "emotional support dancer" (still one of my favorite Burbagisms).


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## Philidor

Apologies for being very late with Schubert #4.


allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I'd never listened to this work before


Me too ... 


allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> The first movement is what grabbed me the most, some interesting choices in harmony and texture for a 16 year old in 1813.


Now that I listened to the Modigliani's recording I second that the statement regarding the first movement. - Also, it goes without saying that the movements are somehow uneven, the finale is brilliant, however, it is difficult to find a link to the first movement.

But great music - in places - and I learned that there might be something to discover in Schubert's quartets 1-11.

Thank you very much for this choice!


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> What is Bachelard’s vertical imagination?


I did a search and found this interesting blog which I found more helpful than some of the laborious philosophical articles.

Attentive Equations - A Vertical Axis


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## Mandryka

starthrower said:


> I did a search and found this interesting blog which I found more helpful than some of the laborious philosophical articles.
> 
> Attentive Equations - A Vertical Axis


And I’ve started to read _La poétique de l’espace_. I prefer it to Perec’s _Espèces d’espaces._


----------



## Enthusiast

StevehamNY said:


> A fair question! And yet we still refer to Schoenberg's #2 as a quartet despite the addition of the soprano.
> 
> If I were drawing the line, and thank God I'm not, I would call any 4-string piece a quartet provided no other traditional instrument was added. So no fifth string, no piano, no glockenspiel. I'd allow a voice, maybe a Church bell, definitely an old-timey slide whistle snuck into the hall by one of the string players, and absolutely an "emotional support dancer" (still one of my favorite Burbagisms).


And then there is Dusapin's 6th string quartet - a work that includes a whole orchestra!


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## Malx

I'm always suspicious of any piece that has extramusical requirements seen as essential to the work. Having read the notes linked by starthrower and listened a couple of times I reckon Mandryka has hit upon a problem I am struggling to overcome:


Mandryka said:


> if indeed the sound becomes like a living presence. I think this aspect is lost at home and in stereo.


It seems to me that it may be a different experience in a live situation but I am not connecting with it through speakers or headphones.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> Apparently BlackAdder isn't available so I've been asked to pick a quartet. I've decided on a fairly contemporary work from 2003 composed by the late Jonathan Harvey (1939-2012). It's his Quartet No.4 with Live Electronics. This was recorded along with his three others by the Arditti Quartet for the aeon label. I thought of selecting one of his shorter quartets for easier consumption but I decided on this 30 minute mature work because to my ears it's Harvey's finest quartet. It may sound very abstract to more traditional listeners but I find that the music possesses a concrete immediacy and presence for the interested listener. The writing for acoustic quartet and electronics sounds organic rather than tagged on for effect which for me is a winning formula. I hope you enjoy it! If you don't have the CD to crank up on a good audio system I suggest listening with a good pair of headphones. Below are links for listening, and another web page containing Harvey's notes, and a short review.
> String Quartet No.4 | Faber Music
> String Quartet No. 4 With Live Electronics (2003) - YouTube


A very good choice, a most interesting work. I've only listened to it through about three times in the past, most recently about a year ago, and I enjoy it very much.

I agree with your view that the electronics are fused or blended into the fabric of the work, which all too often is not the case with this sort of music-adventure (although I still feel the string-writing is more than interesting enough on its own - perhaps I miss the point)

This afternoon I sat down with a large Scotch and had a serious, focused listen. There's an inexorable but floating energy that is punctuated by harmonic shifts that are sometimes subtle and sometimes quite pronounced, often rooted in the writing for the lower strings.

As the work progresses, there are discernible episodes that naturally flow out of, and into, one another - I do like the overall architecture of the piece, even though I don't necessarily understand the music-syntax.

When I listen to it again, I will have another large Scotch - it goes well with the music!


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> When I listen to it again, I will have another large Scotch - it goes well with the music!


THIS, 100%.


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> THIS, 100%.


For some reason, my browser can't open the image/attachment


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## StevehamNY

HenryPenfold said:


> For some reason, my browser can't open the image/attachment


That's criminal! It's a fine shot of Bill Murray in "Lost in Translation," doing his Japanese whiskey ad.

Bill Murray GIF


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## starthrower

I'm a bit frustrated that I can't hear some of the quieter passages with my set up. I don't have the CD. I don't have any whiskey so I can't take in the listening experience with a buzz on. I tried to imagine what the piece would sound like in live performance which I'm guessing would encompass a more expansive envelope of sound. Noting the remarks of Mandryka, and Malx, some parts do sound a bit boxed in.


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## Mandryka

Can you hear any electronic effects at all on the CD?


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## StevehamNY

I finally got the chance to listen to this quartet with a good set of in-ear monitors (IEMs). I think it takes either those or some closed-back headphones to really hear what's going on with this piece. 

There's so much audio _movement _going on here, like the sounds are just whizzing all around you in every direction. I happened to be looking at some images from the Webb telescope as I was listening and it was a perfect combination!


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> Can you hear any electronic effects at all on the CD?


I can hear them when streaming the piece.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This isn't the kind of music I normally listen to, so it takes a while for me to adjust my ears into appreciating the sounds as pure sounds rather than focusing on melody, harmony, rhythm, etc. Nonetheless, it is usually an interesting and worthwhile adventure to take the plunge into stuff like this, and this was no exception. It unfolds very patiently, but I found that my interest was progressively more piqued as the piece went on. It definitely keeps you on your toes with its constant stream of unexpected sounds and ideas—it's like stumbling your way through a labyrinthine dreamworld. I agree that the inclusion of the electronics was unobtrusive and natural; at times it sounded like there was an orchestra backing up the strings. I really liked the last five minutes, in which the violin soars into the stratosphere with something that sounds like a Chinese melody over a haunting, shifting mosaic of colors—it's worth the journey to get to that destination of strange, exotic beauty; and it reminds me of a similar artistic choice in one of my favorite contemporary pieces: Sofia Gubaidulina's _Offertorium_, in which a half-hour of turbulent, remorselessly dissonant soundscapes gives way to an indescribably beautiful tonal hymn-like melody. I really like it when consonance and dissonance are used as antithesis/yin and yang/opposite qualities. Nice choice, Starthrower!

I'll PM *annaw *since she hasn't been around in a while. Current schedule:

annaw
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor


----------



## Carmina Banana

Wow! What an exploration of sound. There are so many interesting and unique sounds that my ears were sort of a the kid in a candy shop. Partly because of the composer’s comments, I was very aware of the spatial qualities of the music. I am sucker for panning to begin with and the Arditti recording is chock full of it. The piece really plays with creating space and distance (or the illusion of that). I am surprised by some people not hearing the full effect on the recording. If one were to hear it live, the electronics would still be coming out of speakers somehow. I suppose the performers and sound technician would try to arrange the space properly, but I would almost guess that you would have the best auditory experience with headphones??

I guess I shouldn’t say that without knowing more about how the piece is performed. I’m not sure if they are playing live with a recording playing or if mics are picking up the strings and someone is mixing them with electronics or if the live sound is being modulated electronically and then going out speakers. If someone knows these details, I would love to hear about it.

At any rate, this piece is a brilliant essay on sound. At times, it reminded me of stumbling on to a wonderful machine and then taking that machine apart and seeing how it works. 

There seems to have been trend for 21st century composers to write comments about their works that are almost ridiculously abstruse. I can’t say I understand what he was saying, but it adds to the trippy quality of this piece!


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## starthrower

I failed to check out this link earlier in the week but here is a video of the Arditti's performing Harvey's 4th quartet. 
Jonathan Harvey ‘String Quartet no. 4’ : School of Advanced Study, University of London : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


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## Allegro Con Brio

*SearsPoncho*, would you be willing to have a quartet chosen just in case we don't hear back from Annaw by the end of tomorrow? Thanks!


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## SearsPoncho

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *SearsPoncho*, would you be willing to have a quartet chosen just in case we don't hear back from Annaw by the end of tomorrow? Thanks!


Sure.


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## SearsPoncho

Have you heard from Anna? Is she in the U.S. or somewhere else? You want me to wait until tomorrow?


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## Allegro Con Brio

SearsPoncho said:


> Have you heard from Anna? Is she in the U.S. or somewhere else? You want me to wait until tomorrow?


I have not received a reply yet. I think you can go ahead and post your pick when you are ready.


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## SearsPoncho

I'll go ahead and post something cause ACB hasn't heard from Anna yet. I'll be happy to wait another week if Anna shows up.

One of the greatest curiosities in the world of classical music is Prince's little known string quartet. Yes, that Prince. Dubbed the "Paisley Park Quartet," it consists of 4 movements named after some of his Purple Badness' more famous conquests:

I) Appolonia (Allegro ma non troppo)
II) Vanity (Prestissimo)
III) Sheila E. (Largo)
IV) Sheena Easton (Theme and Variations; Vivace)

It was dedicated to Kim Basinger and is written in a lush, sensual neo-Romantic idiom. 



Just kidding. 

I believe Haydn's Op. 76 quartets collectively represent the pinnacle of the pre-Beethoven, classical era string quartet repertoire. Essential to any chamber music collection, they capture Haydn at his peak, in full, glorious stride. This is clear desert island territory, for me. I'm going with the one minor key work.

This week's string quartet is *Haydn's String Quartet Op.76, #2*. Enjoy!

Here's an excellent performance by the Kodaly Quartet:
Haydn String Quartets Op.76, No.2 "Fifths" (Kodaly Quartet) - YouTube


----------



## Merl

A bit of juicy Haydn to get stuck into is a perfect fit for the coming week, where I have a clean slate and I'm not on holiday in Spain (I wouldn't have offered much to the Harvey convo anyway). I have a few I really like here, already, so eager to listen to other accounts of this fine quartet.

Edit: with over 50 recordings this is going to be a big one (thankfully it's a short quartet).


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## Bwv 1080

That first movement of the Prince is pretty hip


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## SearsPoncho

Merl, I didn't see any of the Op.76 quartets in your blog and figured this might keep you busy. However, it's a short one and you should be able to knock out 3 in an hour.


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## hammeredklavier

This particular Haydn quartet strongly reminds me of Beethoven's 9th


----------



## HerbertNorman

Special piece that Harvey , I had to get my head around it tbh ... I would love to hear a live performance of it ! Anyone here ever had the luck of hearing it live?

Glad to be listening to some Haydn this week ! I'll have to check out my collection , not sure which performances I have. I'm sure I have one by the Alban Berg Quartet (EMI) and I think the Emerson...


----------



## Malx

A nice choice SP.
I have four recordings on the shelves - Kodaly, Modigliani, Prazak and Mosaiques they will keep me going for now.

*Edit*: I lied! - listening to the Chiaroscuro Quartet, as I was already streaming, I thought why not!


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## Chilham

Lovely choice. 

I have Mosaiques and Festetics. Think I'll treat myself to the Chiaroscuro Quartet for a new perspective.


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## StevehamNY

Listening to the Auryn recording today. Haydn's music has the unique ability to make me feel a little bit more at peace when it feels like the whole world is burning.

If the story about the bombardment of his house by Napoleon's army is indeed true ("Don't be afraid, children, where Haydn is, no harm can reach you!"), well, maybe we all need to hear a voice like that sometimes.


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## Merl

I've listened to about 15 recordings last night and today and there's some absolute belters. One recording I didn't like at all and found utterly frustrating was the London Haydn account. Regulars on here will know that up to now I've not been impressed by this Quartet's Haydn (they do tend to polarise opinions) but I take every performance at face value and as a new start. However, apart from the fact that the first movement is drearily slow (its supposed to be an Allegro, guys - 12 mins!), what really annoys me is that they won't leave things alone across the quartet. Every phrase, every line is meddled with, tempos aren't regular and phrasing is loose making the whole thing sound bloated... .And no I don't agree with a certain critic who calls them "the world's ugliest string quartet", I just don't like this particular performance. Apologies if you like them but this is a big no-no for me. 😣


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## SearsPoncho

Merl, 12 minutes for the opening movement! That's a Sheila E.-esque Largo that's almost double most performances. Reminds me of our rule: If a quartet is going to name themselves after a composer, it better play that composer well.

Bwv 1080, I was really diggin' that Prince. Lots of head boppin going on at Casa Poncho when I played it!


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## Kreisler jr

It must be partly due to the second half repeat; but it is still very slow. I have recordings with all repeats and the first movement lasts between 8:40 (Jerusalem) and 9:40 (Mosaiques).


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## Malx

I have listened to all the discs I have on the shelves and a few others (Takacs, Chiaroscuro, & Panocha). So far I have been happy with the majority of what I've heard - I would describe the Mosaiques as the 'comfy' recording, one thats unlikely to upset anyone but ultimately lacks that little sparkle I prefer and as Kreisler states they play the repeats. 
I was slightly disappointed by the Takacs. the sounds not great but I also felt it was a bit straight laced, nothing wrong with it but ... So far the Chiaroscuro, Modigliani and Kodaly are the three I'm enjoying most. 
I'd suggest the Kodaly as an easy recommendation, a central performance if you like, but the other two have a little bit more sparkle and individuality which I like - I wouldn't want to call which one I prefer.


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## Merl

It's silly really but I always listen out for those slides in the final movement. Typical Haydn wit. Some quartets play these beautifully but some just play them very straight. It's only a tiny thing but I do like it when ensembles diverge here. Check out the Alberni Collins Classics account. Slightly dry but a really nice rendition and the slides are just lovely. I also have a pet peeve about the 2nd movement being played too slow. I've thrown out a few already that nowhere near the indicated '_Andante o piu tosto Allegretto'. _The Brentano quartets analysis notes mark this section down as "poised between a leisurely ramble and a somewhat brisker tread" and I tend to agree (but accept that it's a rather vague descriptor).


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## Malx

I've just finished listening to another Haydn Op76/2 I forgot I had, hidden away in a large Harmonia Mundi Box. The recording is by the Jerusalem Quartet - fabulously accurate playing, great intonation but maybe, just maybe, a little hard driven at times. Having said that I am probably being a little harsh as it is still a very fine rendition.


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## Kreisler jr

I have not yet listened to the Jerusalem (I think their 2nd Haydn disc is more interesting, partly because of the works included (20/5, 33/3, 76/5) but they are both superbly played). The first I took out was the Eder (Teldec, 1980s) with the 3 named ones from op.76. I find this a bit too plain. It's good and there is nothing wrong with it but nothing special either.


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## SearsPoncho

I enjoy the counterpoint and polyphony of Op. 76, #2. These elements appear to be emphasized or underlined with this one, although that might just be the recordings I hear. Maybe the rarely used minor key highlights these elements for Haydn and Mozart. It just seems that I can very clearly hear harmonic changes and accompanying counterpoint in this quartet, as well as Haydn and Mozart's other minor key works. Perhaps someone with a higher music theory I.Q. than I possess can enlighten us on these issues. Anyhow, I love it! Hopefully some of you will let your recordings run on and listen to Op.76, #3, and Op.76, #4 ("Sunrise").  I think you will be happy you did!

I have the Kodaly complete set and have always been happy with it. I recall some excellent Haydn by the Jerusalem Quartet on an earlier one. If they're as good as they were in that one, I believe it might have been Op. 33, #3, then I would consider adding it to my collection. I do have a few Haydn recordings by the Takacs Quartet, and they are middle of the road performances in disappointing sound, with that distantly miked, overly reverberant quality I usually can't stand. 

Anyhow, keep listening. I look forward to seeing which quartets make the final cut.


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## HerbertNorman

I am really enjoying the Haydn this week...latest listen: Kodaly Quartet (Naxos box set)
they are so adept at giving the Haydn the sound it deserves tbh... I prefer it over the recording I listened to yesterday via streaming (the Panocha Quartet). Which I felt was a little flat, didn't have the same vibe to it.


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## Art Rock

Actually, I have the complete Kodaly Quartet set on Naxos (but bought one at a time), and never felt the need to buy other renditions. Maybe some versions are marginally better, but the cheap skate inside of me thinks that marginally better does not warrant extra purchases - that money is better spent on exploring other composers.


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## Malx

Art Rock said:


> Actually, I have the complete Kodaly Quartet set on Naxos (but bought one at a time), and never felt the need to buy other renditions. Maybe some versions are marginally better, but the cheap skate inside of me thinks that marginally better does not warrant extra purchases - that money is better spent on exploring other composers.


'I DON'T BELIEVE IT!'


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## Merl

Art Rock said:


> Actually, I have the complete Kodaly Quartet set on Naxos (but bought one at a time), and never felt the need to buy other renditions. Maybe some versions are marginally better, but the cheap skate inside of me thinks that marginally better does not warrant extra purchases - that money is better spent on exploring other composers.


Whilst a few of the Kodaly's performances are more routine the majority are very good and this is probably one of their best. It's a well-structured, well-played and interesting reading with plenty of punch. I tend to ignore the Naxos snobs who won't go near it because of the label/covers. As a complete set it's far more capably played and consistent than some sets that are twice the price.


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## Xenophiliu

I usually can't afford the time to participate in this thread, but always enjoy reading what goes on here. However, a spate of time opened up for me, so I took out my ABQ recording that rarely gets an airing.

I was taken by how Haydn snaps to minor in the first movement, and yet the music can never help but ambling its way into major. I was also taken by a particular moment in the development where all the parts came together moving in fifths, but play them at different times and directions; apt SQ nickname I suppose. The off-beat crescendos were a neat effect too. The third movement's opening imitation was quite effective for me; it had a spare, almost medieval feel that seemed rather unexpected.

Thanks for the lovely Haydn quartet, and I hope to come back soon.


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## HerbertNorman

Art Rock said:


> Actually, I have the complete Kodaly Quartet set on Naxos (but bought one at a time), and never felt the need to buy other renditions. Maybe some versions are marginally better, but the cheap skate inside of me thinks that marginally better does not warrant extra purchases - that money is better spent on exploring other composers.


Money well spent! The Kodaly in general hasn't let me down very often...


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## Kreisler jr

Art Rock said:


> Actually, I have the complete Kodaly Quartet set on Naxos (but bought one at a time), and never felt the need to buy other renditions.


If you bought them all as separate discs you might have spent quite a bit and more than later box-buyers... AFAIR it took Naxos ages to put them into a box and then the box was not even very cheap. I bought a bunch of Haydn quartets in the late 1990s, incl. one single Kodaly disc, but when the Angeles Qt. box came out in the early 2000s I bought this, partly because it was cheaper than a Kodaly box or there literally was no Kodaly box yet. (I was also not convinced by the Kodaly I had although I now think that it must have been one of their weaker ones (op.20,4-6))


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## Art Rock

Kreisler jr said:


> If you bought them all as separate discs you might have spent quite a bit and more than later box-buyers...


Definitely, although I bought them in the nineties in Germany, when Naxos CD were going for only about 10 DM (5 euro) in larger CD shops. Cheap boxes were not a thing when I was accumulating the first few thousands CD's of my collection (neither were cheap second hand shops).


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## Merl

I bought the whole Kodaly set (mint) on single discs, secondhand from Gumtree for 50p a disc. I also bought another 20 discs from the same seller who charged me the same price for anything I bought (and there was some great stuff there - Kubelik's live CzPO Smetana Ma Vlast stands out as one) . That haul was one of my finds of the Century and the guy only lived around the corner.


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## EvaBaron

Merl said:


> I bought the whole Kodaly set (mint) on single discs, secondhand from Gumtree for 50p a disc. I also bought another 20 discs from the same seller who charged me the same price for anything I bought (and there was some great stuff there - Kubelik's live CzPO Smetana Ma Vlast stands out as one) . That haul was one of my finds of the Century and the guy only lived around the corner.


Like always I did some research on recordings because I wanted to listen to ma vlast and based on many recommendations and articles the Kubelik live CzPO was seen as the best or the closest as you can say that one recording is the best (I know music is subjective). But unfortunately it wasn’t on Spotify so I still haven’t listened to it. I know it’s on YouTube but I often only listen to music while cycling to school so that’s not possible. Maybe I should just sit in the coach for an hour and listen to it then. Nice that you got such a good haul!


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## maestro267

Is it possible to join the queue to make a selection for this?


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## Philidor

Currently I am enjoying in particular the (de facto) two-part Menuet and the (superficially) quite primitive trio. Haydn the rogue.


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## Merl

maestro267 said:


> Is it possible to join the queue to make a selection for this?


I'm sure ACB will get back to you about this, in this thread, as soon as he can but it'll be fine. The more the merrier. 

Btw, for anyone interested here's a link to my Haydn op.76 blog post. I suspect that some of my picks may be more contentious this time, with such fierce competition. Lol

Haydn - String Quartet op.76/2 'Fifths' (SQ...


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## Enthusiast

I realise I never commented on the Harvey. I don't have much to say about spatial elements (or, to be honest, much interest in that side of it) but did find the work very attractive. I'm struck, as I have been before, by how well Harvey integrates an apparent "interloper" (in this case the electronics but I feel the same about the birds in his Bird Concerto) so that it belongs and doesn't shock or stick out like a sore thumb .... or even, the case of the quartet, as a soloist.


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## Enthusiast

I've been listening to numerous recordings of the Haydn. I plan to listen once more to the Doric and the Ragazze quartets but am happy for now that I have digested the Tatrai Quartet, the Quatuor Mosaïques and the Chiaroscuro Quartet accounts. The Chiaroscuro account is neat and tidy, charming but maybe, I felt, a little light especially when compared with the more robust Mosaïques account. This is just a touch slower but I liked the added weight and found no want of rhythmic life or charm. The Tatrai is a fair bit slower but still doesn't drag. I liked it but of these three I liked the Mosaïques best.


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## Carmina Banana

I love this quartet. I was considering it for my selection. It is perfect gem. As a youngster, I had the Budapest Quartet recordings of opus 76 on LP and it was a treasured possession.

I can’t help but think of Beethoven and how it has been said that Beethoven could never write with the ease of Haydn. I totally agree. The slow movement is a good example. Beethoven wrote many movements like this—a simple cantabile melody that came back with ornamented elaboration. But his slow movements are often overblown and ambitious whereas this Andante is so innocent and unassuming. It makes you sigh with satisfaction. 

I shy aware from the term balance when describing classical music, but this quartet is balanced in the sense that for every minor we are given a major; for every half note we are given a handful of eighth notes; etc. It fills me with a sense of well-being and completeness. 

The joyful ending in D major is like an opera finale. We have suffered with our heroes and heroines and now we can simply rejoice. What a great ending to this piece!



I listened to the Amadeus, the Chiaroscuro and, since there was some talk about it, the Kodaly. 

The Amadeus had some beautiful moments, but I was a bit bothered by some rubato moments. It is OK to just play in tempo some times. I will say there is some personality in this performance and that counts for a lot in my book.

The Kodaly is very good overall. Straight-forward, solid and very satisfying. But I don’t really feel like the musicians sat around and tried to find a unique concept and approach to the quartet.

The Chiaroscuro probably did. It definitely gives a different perspective compared to most recordings. I’m not sure I love it, but it was enjoyable to hear.


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## Malx

Carmina Banana said:


> The Chiaroscuro probably did. It definitely gives a different perspective compared to most recordings. I’m not sure I love it, but it was enjoyable to hear.


CB - in my view you bring up an interesting point - does any new recording of core repertoire from the many talented and technically secure young quartets on the scene at the moment have to have something different to say, to use your words give us a 'different perspective'. 
I believe a lot of the newer recordings are giving us all new 'takes' on old favourites and I for one welcome this with open arms/ears - they may not always succeed but I applaud those that try.


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## Malx

Finally got round to playing the Prazak Quartet's recording of the Op76/2 that I have, but had misplaced, earlier today.
I can't find a lot wrong with it - it just sounds 'right' (whatever that means).


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## Allegro Con Brio

As always, I've enjoyed getting the chance to know a Haydn quartet a bit better this week. There is something so wonderfully and winsomely pure about the way he writes for quartet that always makes me crack a smile. It's simple, but so affecting. Several months ago I saw his Seven Last Words live, and I was really struck by Haydn's ability to create erudite conversations between the instruments with all of them playing a pivotal role in crafting the whole. I guess the word for that is simply "beauty." I love the last few minutes of the first movement—that big chord signaling the harmonic transition from the development to the recap is a signature moment (I think it's a Neapolitan chord, but it's been three months since my last music theory class...). The second movement is a classic Haydn Adagio—graceful, polite, and swaying. The minuet was too persistent and motor-like for me (maybe some Haydnesque "annoying" humor?) but the trio was nice. And the chipper finale with those hilarious little stutters all over the place is a fine clincher. Honestly, Op. 76 is so wonderful overall that I probably wouldn't choose this one as my favorite of the set, but of course, a very worthwhile listen.

I started with what have historically been two of my favorite Haydn interpreters: the Auryn and Buchberger, both of which play with quintessential vigor, imagination, and polish. Then I moved to the Lindsay, who really smile a lot here and bring out all the wit they can. Their playing has an unpretentious, quicksilver nonchalance here that I really appreciated; and I like the quicker pace for the second movement. On CB and Merl's recommendation, I finished with the Chiaroscuro, whose overall effect lives up to their namesake: a convincing alternation of light and shadow, especially in their really impressive first movement, which brings out the sturm und drang superbly but also gives it a lovely dancing lilt. The HIP sound is sharp and crisp, and it was really nice to turn to them after the three modern-instrument recordings as it's a bit like seeing a favorite painting in a bright new restoration. My only criticism of their recording is their second movement, which sounded like a rather trivial breeze-through, but everything else was great.



maestro267 said:


> Is it possible to join the queue to make a selection for this?


Of course! Welcome aboard!

Next up will be *HenryPenfold*. Current schedule:

HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## Merl

Welcome on board, Maestro!


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## Enthusiast

Enthusiast said:


> I've been listening to numerous recordings of the Haydn. I plan to listen once more to the Doric and the Ragazze quartets but am happy for now that I have digested the Tatrai Quartet, the Quatuor Mosaïques and the Chiaroscuro Quartet accounts. The Chiaroscuro account is neat and tidy, charming but maybe, I felt, a little light especially when compared with the more robust Mosaïques account. This is just a touch slower but I liked the added weight and found no want of rhythmic life or charm. The Tatrai is a fair bit slower but still doesn't drag. I liked it but of these three I liked the Mosaïques best.


Adding two more to the ones I have spent some time with this week. I really like the Doric recording. It is quite unlike any of the others - more colourful and varied, slightly less formal ... almost Romantic but nevertheless it is still Haydn. And then the Ragazze recording which I like a lot as well. It has an excitement that I don't find in the others.

There are so many others that I could try to listen to but that will have to wait for another day, month or year.


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## HenryPenfold

A most enjoyable listen this Saturday morning - Kodály on Naxos, superb

I also have the Festetics, Mosaïques & London Haydn Quartet. 

I have not heard the Chiaroscuro.

Very good choice SearsPoncho 👍


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## Merl

The number of high quality 'Fifths' is huge tbh. There were around 30 that I would very enthusiastically recommend to anyone. We are blessed with some very fine Haydn recordings in all the quartets.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> The number of high quality 'Fifths' is huge tbh. There were around 30 that I would very enthusiastically recommend to anyone. We are blessed with some very fine Haydn recordings in all the quartets.


The first Haydn string quartets CD I ever bought was by the Kodály Quartet - "Emperor, "Fifths" & "Sunrise"on Naxos, over thirty years ago, I think. 

Rosette award in the Penguin Guide, and I went on to collect all the Kodály Haydn discs.

If one fancies having some Kodály Quartet performances on CD, without getting too involved, I'd strongly recommend this disc......


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> The number of high quality 'Fifths' is huge tbh. There were around 30 that I would very enthusiastically recommend to anyone. We are blessed with some very fine Haydn recordings in all the quartets.


Did you find a really bad one? Or a really quirky one?


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> Did you find a really bad one? Or a really quirky one?


Yeah (both), but I'm not going to mention it on this thread cos some people like it and I'm not in a confrontational kind of mood.* 

*_(but if you read back a few pages I did mention it) _


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> The first Haydn string quartets CD I ever bought was by the Kodály Quartet - "Emperor, "Fifths" & "Sunrise"on Naxos, over thirty years ago, I think.
> 
> Rosette award in the Penguin Guide, and I went on to collect all the Kodály Haydn discs.
> 
> If one fancies having some Kodály Quartet performances on CD, without getting too involved, I'd strongly recommend this disc......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 171530


For a first Haydn string quartet cd, that's the single best disc you could have purchased. The works and the performances. I have the entire Kodaly set, which I adore, and they definitely brought their "A" game for the great Op.76 set.


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## Knorf

Well, Im behind again. I blame a busy summer. Anyway I enjoy Harvey's music quite a lot and will be checking that choice out. Haydn quartets are always a hit for me, and the Op. 76 cycle includes several favorites, including No. 2. It's been a while since I heard it, for no good reason, so this is a treat.


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## HenryPenfold

*Frank Bridge* (1879-1941) - String Quartet No. 2 (1915)
Performance duration - circa 25 minutes


I find it hard to choose between his string quartets no. 2 and no. 3 as to which is my favourite, although it must be said that all four are very good indeed, in different ways.

For better or worse, I've gone for no. 2.

The Maggini Quartet on Naxos is the recording that I got to know this work, in fact it's the only recording I've ever felt the need to have......

Bridge was Ben Britten's teacher, but unlike Ben, his music has been somewhat neglected. I also think he is very underestimated as a composer.


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## HenryPenfold

Maggini Quartet - Naxos
Around* 24* minutes


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## Philidor

Allegro Con Brio said:


> There is something so wonderfully and winsomely pure about the way he writes for quartet that always makes me crack a smile.


Fully agreed.

Haydn knew how to write some good piece of music without superficial effects. No ********. Just the intrinsic elements of the music. It sounds so easy, as if writing a good quartet was something that could easily be done in the morning before starting "serious" work. Miraculous.


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## Merl

Interesting choice, Henry. Funnily enough I was thinking about Bridge's quartets, the other day, whilst doing my Walton SQ blog. I'm sure the topic of Bridge came up when I was talking to Malx the other day, too - am I right about that, Malx, or am I loosing my marbles and its all a figment of my imagination? I have the Maggini disc (charity shop 50p special) but Bridge has never caught my imagination so I've rarely played it and when I have it didn't grab me. Hoping that some proper, intensive listening might rectify this. 
Btw, I found 4 performances of this quartet. Apart from the Maggini there are recordings from the Brindisi, Bridge and Delme quartets. Three of these are available on my streaming service, the other is on Hyperion.


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## Malx

Nice choice Henry - I'm not up to speed on Bridge's second quartet, I have a couple of recordings of the third and the Goldner recording of the fourth, which as you will know is in a more modern idiom.



Merl said:


> I'm sure the topic of Bridge came up when I was talking to Malx the other day, too - am I right about that, Malx, or am I loosing my marbles and its all a figment of my imagination?


You are not losing your marbles Merl - if I recall correctly it was the third quartet we mentioned as I think both of us had considered it as a choice.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Yeah (both), but I'm not going to mention it on this thread cos some people like it and I'm not in a confrontational kind of mood.*
> 
> *_(but if you read back a few pages I did mention it) _


I'm sure we all know that tastes vary and that what one enjoys another may not.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I've listened to about 15 recordings last night and today and there's some absolute belters. One recording I didn't like at all and found utterly frustrating was the London Haydn account. Regulars on here will know that up to now I've not been impressed by this Quartet's Haydn (they do tend to polarise opinions) but I take every performance at face value and as a new start. However, apart from the fact that the first movement is drearily slow (its supposed to be an Allegro, guys - 12 mins!), what really annoys me is that they won't leave things alone across the quartet. Every phrase, every line is meddled with, tempos aren't regular and phrasing is loose making the whole thing sound bloated... .And no I don't agree with a certain critic who calls them "the world's ugliest string quartet", I just don't like this particular performance. Apologies if you like them but this is a big no-no for me. 😣


I think this reaction may have come about through your way of listening. If your head is full of preconceptions about how it should sound, then it will be hard to enjoy an interpretation like this. Taken on its own terms then I think it's not without interest, especially in a warhorse quartet like this, where there are many many well played but hackneyed and conventional recordings.


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## Philidor

Listened to the Bridge quartet No. 2 and enjoyed it. 

Thank you, Henry!


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## Kreisler jr

I still needed one day for the "Fifth" quartet, but I listened only to four altogether (I used to love this quartet, it was among the handful I first heard and probably for years my favorite of all Haydn together with 76/5 but by now I am bit burned out on it, my op.76 favs are now 4+5). Eder, Jerusalem, Tatrai, Mosaiques. Of these the last was my clear favorite. The Eder is good but rather cool and not very memorable. The Tatrai had the slowest first movement, almost melancholy, overall solid but not that special either. Jerusalem is very (too?) fast in the first movement but that doesn't make it more dramatic rather a bit superficial. Mosaiques are more flexible, more attention to detail and of these the most rustic trio (still not quite enough stomping folkdance for me). I listened to the whole Mosaique disc (+#3 and #6) and liked it quite a bit.

I have never heard the Bridge SQ #2 but I think I liked the few other pieces of his I heard (probably cello sonata and piano quartet).


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Nice choice Henry - I'm not up to speed on Bridge's second quartet, I have a couple of recordings of the third and the Goldner recording of the fourth, which as you will know is in a more modern idiom.
> 
> 
> You are not losing your marbles Merl - if I recall correctly it was the third quartet we mentioned as I think both of us had considered it as a choice.


He never said he was losing his marbles, he was worried that they might be becoming loose.


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## Merl

Listening to a few recordings of the Bridge 2 today I'm thinking that I was foolish not to play my recording of it more often. Its a nice work that's growing on me.


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> He never said he was losing his marbles, he was worried that they might be becoming loose.


But then loose marbles are best removed.


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## HenryPenfold

Enthusiast said:


> But then loose marbles are best removed.


Chronic loose marbles must be removed, but an acute episode of loose marbles, by definition, will pass with the correct treatment and a suitable period of recuperation and if necessary, a programme of rehabilitation.


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> Chronic loose marbles must be removed, but an acute episode of loose marbles, by definition, will pass with the correct treatment and a suitable period of recuperation and if necessary, a programme of rehabilitation.


You have to be wary of long loose marbles, which can be very difficult to treat.


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## Art Rock

*Frank Bridge: String Quartets No. 3 and No. 2 (The Bridge String Quartet, Meridian)* 

Just finished listening to this again (it's been a while). What a marvelous piece, I like it even better than the third. Especially the final movement. Great choice Henry.


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## sbmonty

Giving this recording a spin for the first time. I'm new to Bridge. Thanks Henry!


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> I think this reaction may have come about through your way of listening. If your head is full of preconceptions about how it should sound, then it will be hard to enjoy an interpretation like this. Taken on its own terms then I think it's not without interest, especially in a warhorse quartet like this, where there are many many* well played but hackneyed and conventional recordings.*


This idea of numerous recordings of many popular works sounding the same is an interesting one but I'm not sure it's as common as you imply. Isn't it a little too broad? Many performances can reflect current ideas about how Haydn (or any other popular composer) should go but still vary in terms of the details, where some can do delightful or interesting or compelling things without breaking with the current tradition while others just may not display the imagination to do that. Of course, it can also be very rewarding to hear performers break with that current tradition and do something totally different but doing that can also lead to disaster. It's a risk. 

BTW if you look at Merl's blog you will find a wide variety of performing styles recommended. Some are close in style to others but still bring their own distinctive flavours to the works. I don't necessarily agree with every gradation of desirability that Merl applies but I do recognise the differences and am not sure any of the praised accounts could be described as "hackneyed and conventional".


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## Philidor

Thank you again, Henry, for choosing this quartet! Very attractive music, at least, I feel attracted ... in a somehow mysterious way. The music seems strange and familiar simultaneously.

Written 1914-15? Shortly after Sacre?

Intro (quite long - about one minute and half) - serious, but friendly and warm, a little melancholic, a little dithery, well, after all, G minor, isn't it? (Brahms op. 25, Debussy op. 10).
1st subject - initially actively proceeding, but suddenly flowing in a quite restrained way, almost falling back in the intro's mood. Over-optimistic, the opening scales in unisono?
2nd subject - veiled, woolly, but smoothly caressing, the first clearly positive section in the piece. Bridge unfolds lots of charme that make this piece attractive. Maybe he is at his best at such sections.
Development - touching nightmare spheres, incertainty everywhere (take the soli for cello), Bridge keeps the music gloomy but flowing, he doesn't reveal his secrets. However, the music is at the same time somehow charming.
In the recap the 2nd subject is much more serene. The nightmares are over. Great section. Streaming beauty and love.

There is some logic behind the fact that the middle movement is not a slow one: the first movement had enough aspects of a slow movement. A fine kind of tumbling Scherzo, late descendant of baroque gigues, with a trio reminding the 1st movement's moods. Well, it is not exactly what we would call a trio, is it?

Third movement, intro again ... even longer than in the first movement ... it starts serene, but becomes fully depressive ... falling chromatic scales, grief and misery ... however, the intro ends with a bright chord ... optimism again? Pizzicati coming along, like goblins, leading to some imaginary world, some never-never-land.

However, about two minutes before the end, the music seems to return (coming home?) to the quite restrainedly flowing moods of the first movement. But the riddles remain somehow unsolved, the music does not reveal all of its secrets, the ending is rather overplaying all ambiguities than solving them.

A great work. Curious to discover the other quartets of Frank Bridge.


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## Philidor

HenryPenfold said:


> He never said he was losing his marbles


Now that I know what it means to have lost one's marbles ...  ... a useful phrase for the next international meeting ...


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## sbmonty

Terrific summary!



Philidor said:


> Thank you again, Henry, for choosing this quartet! Very attractive music, at least, I feel attracted ... in a somehow mysterious way. The music seems strange and familiar simultaneously.
> 
> Written 1914-15? Shortly after Sacre?
> 
> Intro (quite long - about one minute and half) - serious, but friendly and warm, a little melancholic, a little dithery, well, after all, G minor, isn't it? (Brahms op. 25, Debussy op. 10).
> 1st subject - initially actively proceeding, but suddenly flowing in a quite restrained way, almost falling back in the intro's mood. Too optimistic, the opening scales in unisono?
> 2nd subject - veiled, woolly, but smoothly caressing, the first clearly positive section in the piece. Bridge unfolds lots of charme that make this piece attractive. Maybe he is at his best at such sections.
> Development - touching nightmare spheres, incertainty everywhere (take the soli for cello), Bridge keeps the music gloomy but flowing, he doesn't reveal his secrets. However, the music is at the same time somehow charming.
> In the recap the 2nd subject is much more serene. The nightmares are over. Great section. Streaming beauty and love.
> 
> There is some logic behind the fact that the middle movement is not a slow one: the first movement had enough aspects of a slow movement. A fine kind of tumbling Scherzo, late descendant of baroque gigues, with a trio reminding the 1st movement's moods. Well, it is not exactly what we would call a trio, is it?
> 
> Third movement, intro again ... even longer than in the first movement ... it starts serene, but becomes fully depressive ... falling chromatic scales, grief and misery ... however, the intro ends with a bright chord ... optimism again? Pizzicati coming along, like goblins, leading to some imaginary world, some never-never-land.
> 
> However, about two minutes before the end, the music seems to return (coming home?) to the quite restrainedly flowing moods of the first movement. But the riddles remain somehow unsolved, the music does not reveal all of its secrets, the ending is rather overplaying all ambiguities than solving them.
> 
> A great work. Curious to discover the other quartets of Frank Bridge.


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## maestro267

Listening to the Bridge quartet now (Maggini) and perhaps the long slow introduction to the finale acts in place of a full-length slow movement. The first movement doesn't feel slow enough to be a slow movement and the second is most definitely scherzic in scope. Arthur Bliss does a similar thing in his Violin Concerto, but on a much larger scale than this quartet.


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## Merl

There's some nice stuff for the viola in this quartet. Like Janacek's 2nd, you don't realise how integral it is until you listen really closely.


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## SearsPoncho

Henry, that was amazing. It had me at hello. Gorgeous, romantic music with some chromatic ambiguity a la late Faure, and occasionally some of that British melancholy I find so attractive in Elgar's music, among others. 

Add to cart.


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## Merl

This is a quartet that bears more fruit the more you listen. I will blog this one but of the 3 quartets I've listened to the Maggini Quartet and the Bridge String Quartet are far more enjoyable than the Brandisi, who add an unnecessary layer of vibrato that this piece really does not need. What a shame I haven't had a chance to listen to the Delme Quartet account yet, as this material is right up their street, but I can't be bothered paying out for it yet. If anyone finds a link to that performance on YouTube, etc please post it. The soundbites on the Chandos site sound very good.










Edit - my current blog review is below but it's not a huge one. Lol. 









Bridge - String Quartet 2 H.115 (SQ review)


Frank Bridge studied violin at the Royal College and composition with Stanford (he also excelled on viola). While still a college student, he premiered the Debussy quartet, as a last minute viola substitute in the Joachim Quartet and also performed piano quartets with Fauré. As a student, he...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Malx

Well thanks Henry for pointing me in the direction of Bridge's 2nd quartet - as is often the case I am going backwords with this composer having initially discovered his quartets via the 4th then the 3rd, both very fine works.
My initial reaction to the second was - well that was pleasant enough, but as with so many pieces familiarity breeds not contempt but respect, its a grower and I'm happy to say I have added it to my wish list.

I listened to three recordings that were readily available to me on Qobuz, the Maggini which Henry advocates in his initial post along with the Brindisi and Bridge Quartets.
I will qualify the next statement with the rider that I am new to the piece so others may find my conclusions wide of the mark - the Brindisi's by name may be encouraging me to drink but I found their recording to be a bit like Champagne with no fizz, the Bridge Quartet were a deal better and very enjoyable but the Maggini's just seemed to nail this one for me - they manage to keep the whole moving along nicely with a coherence that the others don't achieve add that to very good sound and I think this is a recording I'd be happy to live with.

Edit - I have just read Merl's blog and I promise I didn't copy in class, sir


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## Knorf

I had a similar reaction to the Bridge, which was new to me. "Seems pleasant enough"...

Yet in thinking about it and remembering it, it's gotten a bit under my skin, somehow.


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## Carmina Banana

This style and era is very attractive to me: the dust settling on the 19th century and twentieth century not sure if it wants to be hard-edged or continue to wallow in the luscious extended harmonies of late romantic music. 

I haven’t had time to delve into this piece too much, but it pushes all of my buttons. I have heard some Bridge played here and there, but I can’t believe with such attractive, emotionally compelling music that he isn’t heard more often. 

This is a big discovery for me. Love it.


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## hammeredklavier

Carmina Banana said:


> the dust settling on the 19th century and twentieth century not sure if it wants to be hard-edged or continue to wallow in the luscious extended harmonies of late romantic music.


It Frankly Bridges between the 19th century and twentieth century


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## Allegro Con Brio

I'm afraid that it's getting a bit cliché to say something along the lines of "that was a great listen" at the end of the week in this thread, but I truly do not feel as if my time has been wasted listening to anything here. I had known Frank Bridge mainly as a name, but I had heard his piano quintet a while back and remember enjoying it. Sometimes I struggle with late-Romantic stuff like this as it can just sound like amorphous soup to me. But I'm glad to say that's not what I heard here. The first movement reminded me strongly of the Franck quartet that I nominated last year: it's unabashedly swooning, indulgent music but still restrained within formal boundaries and carries one along in a single sweep. One thing that really sticks out to me in this quartet is the great variety of memorable sounds and textures. Pizzicato plays a very prominent role in all three (four?) movements, and sometimes I was reminded of guitars or bagpipes in the rustic sonic landscapes that he dreamed up. It continually amazes me how many things can be done with 16 strings and four bows. I loved the bouncy scherzo and dreamy trio, and the brief Adagio is a gem of muted, melancholy English lyricism; quite Elgarian. The finale is full of jovial energy and ear-tickling counterpoint; I feel like it's one of those things that really requires several listens in order to fully grasp all the lovely little details. Overall I utterly fell for the rustic charm and rich romanticism of this quartet; it may not be anything that innovative, but it is quality all-around. Thanks for this one, Henry.

*Carmina Banana *will be our next nominator.


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## Merl

hammeredklavier said:


> It Frankly Bridges between the 19th century and twentieth century


🙄😳


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## Carmina Banana

I have been tossing around a lot ideas in my head. I want a piece that is not too short, but not too long; one that doesn’t have too many recordings, but that has a few to choose from. There are a couple composers who have not been represented but have written quite a few quartets. The dilemma is: do I pick an early work that might not be stellar, but contains the germs of the composer-to-come? Or go right to a mature work?

I decided to go with Glazunov. I’m not all that familiar with these pieces, but I remember diving into the symphonies and having so much fun discovering those works. Plus, I am fascinated by that time and place. Glazunov seems to be an influence of some kind on so many composers we know and love. Considered old-fashioned by some, his skill as a composer was always acknowledged. 

At first, I toyed with the first quartet opus 1, which has some nice moments but lacks the substance of the mature composer. But I am going a different direction: 

*Glazunov String Quartet No. 5 in d minor, Op. 70*. 

This is a big, satisfying listen that I think demonstrates the composer well. It starts intense and brooding and ends with a knee-slapping finale. There are several recordings out there but I can't tell you how many.

I’m interested to hear what people think of this piece and hear about their relationship with this composer.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I've not listened to much by Glazunov, the 2nd piano sonata, the 5th and 6th symphonies, the violin concerto. The sonata I found it truly amazing and mesmerizing, but those other three works weren't up to par, so I gave up and didn't explore anything else. Thanks for your nomination, so I'm reminded to give him another go


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## StevehamNY

Glazunov was one interesting and paradoxical character, to say the least, and a perfect subject for a Burbagization on Friday. (Or so I will hope.) But I know it's about the music first and the maker second, so I'll just start by listening to my Utrecht recording of his fifth quartet. 










Thanks for the pick, CB!

(Although now I'm thinking I might go in a different direction with my pick next week, because do we need two Russians in a row?)


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## Merl

I know and enjoy many of Glazunov's symphonies but although I've heard a few of his quartets I've never investigated any further so this will be a voyage of discovery for me in repertoire I should like (but who knows?). I found 5 recordings. There may be more (let me know if you do find any more) but if so they're quite rare.

Utrecht
Lyric
Delray
Shostakovich
St Petersburg

Edit: on first listen, although it starts solemnly, this is a playful and pleasant piece. Definitely in the style of Tchaikovsky. I'll reserve further comments till I've got to know it better. It was the Utrecht account that I've just played.

PS. For those without a streaming service all the available recordings are available on YouTube.


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## Merl

Sorry for the double post but the Novelettes that often accompany this quartet are quite delightful. Just saying.


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## HerbertNorman

Interesting pick , I listened to the Shostakovich Quartet and I felt they presented the sweetness and lightness of the music very well. The melodies were enjoyable , nice piece to enjoy this week!


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## Merl

Just listened to the Lyric Quartet. Interesting recording. 😳 🙄


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## Malx

Merl said:


> Just listened to the Lyric Quartet. Interesting recording. 😳 🙄


I've listened to the first movement of the Lyric Quartet recording on Spotify then Qobuz the MP3 sounds a bit more constricted, the CD quality lossless stream more listenable, well everything is relative. I am impressed that the recording engineer has managed to capture the echo effect so consistently - it should have been released on the 'Wookey Hole' label.

Edit - just listened through the Utrecht recording - so thats what its meant to sound like! Early days for me with a quartet I'd never heard before, first impressions very melodic, tuneful, well crafted.


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## Merl

Those 5 novelettes that often accompany this quartet are just lovely. I'm falling for them in a big way.


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## Carmina Banana

With that excellent illustration from Merl, I had to hear the lyric recording. I usually don’t mind reverb (I’m guessing they recorded this in a church instead of opting for a recording studio?), but there is a point at which the blending of sound overtakes the separation of sound. I think we lose the individuality of the voices. 

This is always a trade-off musicians have to make, I suppose. I think musicians generally enjoy a live room because they don’t have to push to get a lot of sound coming back at them. The slow movement has some lovely moments, but the finale loses a lot of excitement with the soggy sound. 

I have been reading about Glazunov a bit. The main points I picked up were:

He loved order and technique and couldn’t stand untidiness. 

He hated the music of Prokofiev and walked out on performances by that composer. 

He was not an unkind teacher. 

He was very proud of the St. Petersburg Conservatory and its tradition.


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## Kreisler jr

I was and still am slightly ill, so I only found energy for one perfunctory listening of the Bridge but I'll keep it in mind for later (it was more late romantic that I had expected from my superficial knowledge of 2 or 3 other pieces of the composer). 
I own the Utrecht quartet CD shown above and recall that I was slightly disappointed by the music years ago, in any case not sufficiently enthralled to get the remainder of the series. However, when I re-listened to the 5th quartet last night, I was pleasantly surprised. True, it is mostly "pleasant" music and I find the finale loses my interest a bit but the first three movements are melodic, charming and esp. the 2nd picturesque. Certainly recommendable to anyone who likes Borodin's or Tchaikovsky's quartets


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## maestro267

Listening to Utrecht Quartet recording of Glazunov 5. As has already been mentioned, very pleasant and tuneful. I particularly enjoyed the scherzo, and the way it quietly ended with pizzicato strings.


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## Enthusiast

Firstly a late acknowledgement that I have also enjoyed spending some quality time with Bridge 2. I don't thin there is much I can add to what has been said here. I listened to my Maggini CD - a wonderful account and with great couplings too - a few times. 

I may drop out this week as I am not a big Glazunov fan. But I suppose I should listen to it in solidarity once - I'll wait for some sort of consensus on which recording to try.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I listened to the Utrecht recording. Some things caught my ear in the 1st and 3rd movement, the beauty, the grace, the relative darkness of the 3rd, these things make it well worth revisiting it. The 2nd movement was OK too, however the 4th seemed to me a bit out of place, I really didn't like the rapturous start after the quiet ending of the 3rd, I felt I was in a languid liquid state and then suddenly that was all over with the most trite of effects.


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## Merl

I don't usually intervene at this point but try a different recording. I won't spoil my blog so all I'll say is the usually, reliably impressive Utrecht aren't as cohesive here as some others and don't connect as well as their recording of the 3rd quartet (which is much better). The Shostakovich and St Petersburg ones are definitely more 'together' here. If you don't connect with one of those then this quartet's just not for you. It happens. Listening multiple times, I'm hearing less of the influence of Tchaikovsky and more the soundworld of Smetana and especially early Schubert.


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## Kreisler jr

I re-listened to the Utrecht disc, now including also the 3rd and I now better remember why I didn't care so much for the music when I first got it. The 3rd quartet is hardly a quartet, it's more a picturesque suite, as such very entertaining, but clearly "light music". The 5th is a bit in between such light music and a serious piece but cannot really decide itself...


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## Carmina Banana

As I continue to listen to this piece, I am struck by the composer’s skill:

The drama that he injects in the first movement via that unison melody with the trills; the thematic connections throughout the first movement and second movement; the exciting way he modulates and shifts key around in the finale so that when hits those last chords we feel like our team won Super Bowl (translate to your country’s sporting event. 

I can also see how some might feel that there is something missing. Some composer’s have a knack for putting their personality into their music and some are more just excellent craftsman. Could it be that this piece is like the tin man (lacking a heart)? 

I listened to the Shostakovich and I especially like the finale. They don’t get bogged down by the fussy grace notes halfway through, but keep going to the end.


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## Malx

Malx said:


> Early days for me with a quartet I'd never heard before, first impressions very melodic, tuneful, well crafted.


Like others I felt there was something missing from the Utrecht recording, so I moved on to the St Petersburg & Shostakovich recordings. I felt both were a little better but I wasn't moving on from my initial reaction (above).


Carmina Banana said:


> Could it be that this piece is like the tin man (lacking a heart)?


I then read CB's post and it dawned on me the thing I really wasn't getting was a sense of feeling or 'soul' - yes it is melodic, tuneful, well crafted as I said before, a quartet that can be admired but unfortunately I'm just not connecting with it.
I may try later in the week but I fancy other things will divert my attentions.


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## HenryPenfold

I've listened to the Glazunov 5 twice this week. I love this Russian style of music. When I'm next in the mood for this type of rich, romantic White-Russian, heart-felt music, I can see me giving it a lot of airtime.

Thanks for choosing this piece, Carmina Banana 👍


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## Merl

Still off on holiday so I've battered this piece. I like this quartet and its blatant romanticism. I would have liked a bit more bite written into the finale but it's still an interesting piece that I've grown to like. My thoughts on recordings are in the link below for those interested.









Glazunov - String Quartet 5 op.70 (SQ review)


Glazunov finished his 5th String Quartet in 1900. The first movement starts slowly in the 'sad key' (as I describe it to my students) of D Minor with a sorrowful Andante introduction. The main theme, led by the viola, is a fugue. The second theme follows and is led by the first violin and the...




www.talkclassical.com


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## SearsPoncho

I like Glazunov. I love romantic, Russian music. I should like this one, but after one listen I can't say I do. Again, I have to provide the *disclaime*r that this was my instant reaction after only one listen to Glazunov's 5th. 

There was a thread which asked if members take notes. Well, I never take notes unless it's a first listen to one of our selections in the Weekly String Quartet thread which I'm not sure I'll hear multiple times within a week. So, here are some semi-random, stream of consciousness notes I took while listening to it:

Movements:
I) Earnest, elegiac opening. General tenor is somber and borderline depressing, despite some attempts at lyricism. Didn't really work. To be honest, it's serious music by a great composer which others might like, it's just not for me...at least not after only one listen.

II) I like this. Light, brilliant string writing. It almost sounds like a Russian landler, despite the title and meter. Very enjoyable. As they used to say on American Bandstand's Rate-A-Record, "it's got a good beat and you can dance to it." 

III) Alright, this angst is bordering on Shostakovich territory, or should I say vice-versa when listening to Shostakovich, although his angst is much more compelling than this. About midway through it gets more interesting. Nevertheless, it still sounds a bit static. Either go into full elegiac mode or evolve or develop into something more compelling. Feels like a one note work: somber.

IV) Are you kidding? I don't buy it after what preceded the Finale. Nevertheless, I actually like it as a stand-alone piece. Almost the Russian string quartet version of the finales of Beethoven's "Pastorale" Symphony and Tchaikovsky's 4th. Light, celebratory dancing and giving thanks and all that hooey.

This was just a first listen but the slow movements don't seem to fit with the quick ones. Actually, I'm not sure any of them fit together. It's as if he wrote four movements that were never intended to be part of one unified work, but they were thrown together. Then again, he's Glazunov and I'm not, so I must have missed a lot on this initial listen. I couldn't grasp Beethoven's "Eroica" on first listen. It took me at least a couple years to wrap my brain around any of Mahler's symphonies. Based on everyone else's reactions, I'm sure my opinion will change with subsequent listening sessions, however, I'm not really sure I want to listen to it again. Sorry. There were some good things in it, but as a unified multi-movement work it didn't really grab me.


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## Merl

I know I've mentioned these twice already but, if you don't already know them, Glazunov's 5 Novelletes for SQ are just total earworms and much better than this 5th quartet. I've fallen head over heels for their charms (the 2nd, 4th and 5th are a total delight). So good, in fact, I ended up reviewing all of them. Lol














Glazunov - 5 Novelettes for String Quartet op.15 (SQ review)


For a time, Glazunov was a member of the "Belyayev Circle", a bunch of composers and friends of the wealthy patron and publisher Mitrofan Belyayev who supported emerging composers and musicians and frequently held at his large country estate. It was for one of these get-togerhers in 1886 that...




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## SearsPoncho

Merl, those Novelettes are great. I wish there was more light and entertaining music written for string quartet. There is some stuff, like Dvorak's Cypresses, but most composers approach the string quartet as a symphony for 4 instruments, which is fine, but neglect to write other kinds of music for that ensemble. I think it would do much for the genre's overly serious reputation to have more showpieces, suites, tone poems, character pieces, etc., just as there are for orchestra, solo piano, wind ensemble and other ensembles. Of course, I'm a big fan of serious string quartets but I'm also a fan of variety.


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## Kreisler jr

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, those Novelettes are great. I wish there was more light and entertaining music written for string quartet. There is some stuff, like Dvorak's Cypresses, but most composers approach the string quartet as a symphony for 4 instruments, which is fine, but neglect to write other kinds of music for that ensemble. I think it would do much for the genre's overly serious reputation to have more showpieces, suites, tone poems, character pieces, etc., just as there are for orchestra, solo piano, wind ensemble and other ensembles. Of course, I'm a big fan of serious string quartets but I'm also a fan of variety.


But this is more or less true for almost any music for more than two musicians. There are not many shortish pieces for trio (Schumann wrote some but it never really caught on). There are not that many shortish full orchestral pieces either or they are just taken from longer ones. 
Presumeably there is/was a lot of "light music" for ensembles, incl. string quartet, in the 19th century but these were usually arrangements of all kinds of "popular" music, such as opera arias/excerpts, not original compositions.


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## HerbertNorman

@Merl Thanks for the Novelettes , I mean I had to look them up ... Thoroughly enjoyable , I too enjoy the romantic Russian music and I agree that there should be more light and entertaining music for SQ like this .
I listened to the recording by the Shostakovich Q , which I thought was satisfactory


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## Philidor

Oops ... I think I don't have the right antennas for Glasunov ...

Looking at my shelf I didn't find more than his Violin Concerto and "The Seasons". Both were not buyed on purpose, they just came along with the reasons to buy the CD in question (Tchaikovsky, Dvorak or Sibelius VC, Prokofiev's Cinderella).

So I didn't know neither a symphony nor a string quartet by Glasunov before.

I perceived the music as longing and somehow suffering, but without reasons. I had the impression somehow that the music was just pretending something.

The best was the finale.

So either I have to make some training for my antennas or I should listen elsewhere ...

... but thanks to Carmina Banana anyway! Only if we know our limits, we get a feeling what can be achieved and what not.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Glazunov has not done much for me in the past. I've enjoyed listening to his vibrant, tuneful ballet The Seasons every once in a while as a piece of unabashed ear candy—it's a masterclass of orchestration—but his symphonies and concerti usually come across as rambling and unmemorable. Mostly I see him as a sort of second-rate Tchaikovsky who ruined the premiere of Rachmaninoff's 1st symphony by showing up drunk to conduct it. So I didn't go into this one with high expectations, but I was pleasantly surprised by what I heard. Sure, this is treacly romanticism, but is that really all that bad? There were plenty enough original touches to keep me engaged. Glazunov can lose me with the seemingly unstructured nature of his movements, but here that trait manifested itself as a lovely rhapsodic nature—you never quite know what to expect from moment to moment. For this reason, the first movement was my favorite—it's lovely, patient, languorous music; perfect for a warm, lazy summer afternoon and full of really nice counterpoint although admittedly it does start to sound a bit like a conservatory exercise at times due to this (only a gifted few composers can write polyphony that doesn't sound at least a little bit dry and academic). But it's great to hear a slower movement to start a work, and its bittersweet lyricism sets it apart. That scherzo—so much fun! How can you help cracking a smile and tapping your foot along with it? OK, maybe it's a little trite, but it is irresistable. The third movement sounds quite similar to the first but sounds like Tchaikovsky at his best, and I agree with others that the finale is a bit unconvincing, but it still wrapped it up well IMO even while lacking distinctive features. Despite its compositional intricacy at times, the whole work has a bit of a homespun rustic sound to it with strains of peasant tunes. That's part of the Russian charm, methinks. Perhaps not a new favorite, but I would certainly revisit it again with pleasure along with the rest of Glazunov's quartets. At his best his tender melodicism can be quite addictive.

Even though I had never heard any other recordings of the work, I knew from the first few bars of the St. Petersburg Quartet recording that this a special performance; one of those treasured readings that is delivered with such penetrating vision that you know your attention is going to be gripped from start to finish. And so it was. The passion, sensitivity, and beauty of this performance was top-shelf. Later, when I sampled the Delray recording (the only other one on my streaming), I was shocked at how different performances can affect one's impressions, as what I had previously thought to be an evocation of a placid summer idyll in the first movement sounded more like a lethargic, sunless winter day to me. That is, frankly, a dull, rocky, and poorly-played reading compared to the St. Petersburg, with an extremely dry recording acoustic.

*StevehamNY *will pick next.

StevehamNY
Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *StevehamNY *will pick next.


I'll be on the road today and spending the night away from home, but I'll post my pick as soon as I get back tomorrow!

(Might be late Sunday in the European time zones, is all I'm saying.)


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## Carmina Banana

Thanks to all of you for giving the Glazunov a shot. It is wonderful to be able to listen to a piece, wonder what others might think of it, and then find out! 

I like this piece more than most I think. I find it to be a solid, rewarding listen; it tugs on my heartstrings at times and fires me up at other times. However, I can see how it was not quite doing it for others. 

The word academic was not one I was going to use but perhaps that could be applied because Glazunov was a big part of the St. Petersburg Conservatory and his biggest concern with students seemed to be making things “correct;” smoothing out any distraction dissonances, etc. 

It seems as if Russia (and later the Soviet Union) had difficult decisions to make when they began a concerted effort to educate Russian musicians around the middle of the 19th century. What is a Russian musician? Someone well-schooled in the European tradition? Or someone connected to folk traditions of the Motherland? That is partly what interests me about a figure like Glazunov. The music studied in the conservatory at this time seems to have been mostly romantic composers like Schumann, Liszt, Mendelssohn. But there must have been some pressure to create a homegrown style of music as well. 

I suppose we all have experienced some of that tension in our education. I was schooled in Bach and Beethoven and had to go to ramshackle house on the other side of town to learn about jazz and blues.


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## Art Rock

Inspired by this week's choice I have listened to all of his string quartets (including the Novelettes) the past few days, I found every quartet to be pleasant, but none of them (including the 5th) going beyond that. In fact, the Novelettes were clearly the best of the bunch for me, but even there it does not go beyond 'really like'. It is a general 'problem' (or not) that I have with Glazunov and a few more composers like him - the music is always at a level that I enjoy listening to it, but never gets close to a level that I'd say, hold on, I want to hear that again.


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## StevehamNY

*"Imagine a very drunken Prokofiev writing a ballet for robots" (American Record Guide)*

So after Glazunov week, I wasn’t sure if I should keep the Russian theme going, but a couple of interesting observations from Carmina made me think this could be a good follow-up.

In describing Glazunov’s reputation in the early 20th century, Carmina noted that “Glazunov was a big part of the St. Petersburg Conservatory and his biggest concern with students seemed to be making things ‘correct;’ smoothing out any distraction dissonances, etc.” He was the director of the St. Petersburg Conservatory for 23 important years, in fact, seeing it through a national revolution and helping to reorganize it into the Leningrad Conservatory. When I read about Shostakovich and Prokofiev, it’s clear that Glazunov represented the “establishment” to them, in ways both good and bad. Shostakovich, especially, owes a huge debt to Glazunov’s mentorship. But at the same time, as Carmina also noted, Glazunov didn’t quite appreciate some of the music created by these young whippersnappers, or whatever the correct Russian word would be. He famously lumped together many of the more modernist composers into a group he called “recherché cacophonists.”

But if this is how the venerable Glazunov received the music of Shostakovich and Prokofiev, what on earth could he have made of Alexander Vasilyevich Mosolov, the wild child of the rival Moscow Conservatory?

You may know him from the 1926 piece, _Iron Foundry_, or if you’re like me (a pianophile long before my pandemical discovery of string quartets), you’ll know of his striking, angular piano sonatas. But he also wrote his first string quartet that same year of 1926, when he was just 26 years old. Decades before Keith Moon threw his first television through a hotel window, Mosolov would be expelled from the composer’s union because of a drunken brawl at a restaurant. He would be sent to the gulag shortly after, spend eight months there (out of an eight-year sentence), then get sprung early with the help of Glière and Myaskovsky. He would live until 1973, but never write another piece with the same fiery F***-it-all originality of his youth.

With that introduction, please keep your arms and legs inside the ride at all times and remain seated until it comes to a complete stop. It’s the *String Quartet #1 (1926) by Alexander Mosolov*.

This is a recording from the Novosibirsk Filarmonica String Quartet:






The Utrecht Quartet (seen last week playing Glazunov, talk about a change of gears!) has also recorded it.

NOTE: If you're looking for the quartet on Spotify or Amazon Music (and maybe on the other streaming services), they’ve done a remarkably bad job of tagging the music correctly, so it may be hard to find. But both of these albums should be out there, if you search on the explicit titles. For the Novosibirsk, this is the album:










You may also find the same recording in the Arte Nova “Russian Futurism” series, but the above album is what I found on Spotify. You have to search on the exact album name, because you won’t find it under Mosolov. (Despite the order on the cover, by the way, the Mosolov quartet is last. And while I’m here, as the cover guy can I just rave about this cover for one second? This one will stick in your mind for a long time.)

And for the Utrecht, once again you may need to search on the exact album title:










(Again, the Mosolov quartet is last.)

I hope you enjoy this wildly original quartet!


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## Malx

Never heard of Mosolov but he sounds like a fun guy. 
I have found the Novosibirsk recording on Spotify, thanks to Steve's clear instructions, and I am giving it a first 'background' run through. 
My attention was grabbed when I thought for a moment there was a snare drum in the mix but I'm sure it's some bow on body action or something of that sort. Its got my interest - I'll listen a few more times as the week progresses.

Nice curve ball selection Steve.


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## Merl

This is one of those quartets that benefits from watching it performed by a decent quartet so here's a link to the Danel Quartet playing it.






Listening to this crazy quartet its strange, mechanical, angular soundworld definitely makes for an uncomfortable listen. It's full of violent outbursts and tensions. Not really sure what to make of it yet.


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## HerbertNorman

Nice one to get my teeth into this week!
I don't think I have listened to this one before, great choice...I'm excited.

The Glazunov 5th SQ was a pleasant listen, but I especially enjoyed the novelettes. This will be a different matter , thanks for sharing @Merl I will give that one a listen at noon.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> This is one of those quartets that benefits from watching it performed by a decent quartet so here's a link to the Danel Quartet playing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listening to this crazy quartet its strange, mechanical, angular soundworld definitely makes for an uncomfortable listen. It's full of violent outbursts and tensions. Not really sure what to make of it yet.


Merl, thank you for finding and posting this! I had no idea that one of my favorite ensembles had ever played this piece!

(Is it just me or does watching them play this border on the comical? At the very least, it must be a blast to play!)


----------



## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, thank you for finding and posting this! I had no idea that one of my favorite ensembles had ever played this piece!
> 
> (Is it just me or does watching them play live this border on the comical? At the very least, it must be a blast to play!)


They look as puzzled by it as the rest of us, Steve.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> They look as puzzled by it as the rest of us, Steve.


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## maestro267

Thanks for Spotify instructions. Thoroughly enjoyed the quartet. I'm looking out for "spicy" 20th century chamber music with extended techniques, dissonance and violence and this fits the bill neatly.


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## StevehamNY

maestro267 said:


> Thanks for Spotify instructions. Thoroughly enjoyed the quartet. I'm looking out for "spicy" 20th century chamber music with extended techniques, dissonance and violence and this fits the bill neatly.


It does have some violence in it, yes!

But as much as I'll joke about how bonkers this quartet may sound on first listen, I hope it's clear that I take it seriously, just as much as I take the life of Alexander Mosolov seriously. By 1926, think about what he had already lived through, and what life must have looked like and felt like just two years after Lenin's death, as Joseph Stalin consolidated his power over the new USSR. The wailing sirens and horror-movie shrieks in this quartet were not just cheap effects.

There's an independent film called "Mosolov's Suitcase" that's still in production, so I'm not sure when it will come out. But I'm very much looking forward to it. I highly recommend watching the trailer on this website:

Mosolov's Suitcase


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Merl said:


> This is one of those quartets that benefits from watching it performed by a decent quartet so here's a link to the Danel Quartet playing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Listening to this crazy quartet its strange, mechanical, angular soundworld definitely makes for an uncomfortable listen. It's full of violent outbursts and tensions. Not really sure what to make of it yet.


Listened to this. Honestly, I didn't get it... It is kind of violent, yes, and it is a bit strange, but I didn't see any purpose to it. Actually, I think it's strange because it is very convoluted and disparate. But I'll give it another go without seeing the performance.

Of course, it's always interesting to check out new composers!


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## Merl

I'm finding this a really hard quartet to get my head around. There doesn't seem to be any structure. Even the poor old Danel Quartet look confused in that YouTube video. The two recordings are also very different. The Utrecht are tighter but the Novosibirsk are angular and very in-your-face. If you like this quartet, which version you like best will probably down to the approach you prefer.


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## HerbertNorman

Merl said:


> I'm finding this a really hard quartet to get my head around. There doesn't seem to be any structure. Even the poor old Danel Quartet look confused in that YouTube video. The two recordings are also very different. The Utrecht are tighter but the Novosibirsk are angular and very in-your-face. If you like this quartet, which version you like best will probably down to the approach you prefer.


You're not alone ... After listening to the Utrecht I was somewhat confused as I had listened to the Danel twice and felt like I had "grasped the idea" behind the SQ... Tough one this week , a challenge! But I think that can be fun too... 
It's gonna take a few more listens tbh ... I'm not getting it yet...


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## HerbertNorman

The Novosibirsk SQ next...


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## sbmonty

Giving the Utrecht String Quartet a try this morning.


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## Knorf

The Mosolov First Quartet is brand-new to me, and I quite enjoyed it. It's an intriguing work in my estimation. I didn't find it especially puzzling; I'm more bemused by the reactions in this thread than I was about the actual quartet after hearing it. 

But I do have an admitted soft-spot for 1920s-era Futurism, which this fits to a T: layered ostinati often at varying time-scales, static harmonic blocks, emergent melodic construction, mechanically insistent rhythms... Cool stuff!


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## Merl

I don't really have any serious issues with it. I just find it a little confused. Even in quartets I don't enjoy I can see patterns, a story, landscapes, sound pictures, etc. With this I can't find a common path. It has militaristic parts and them can sound industrial, then we get some big Bartok Ian influences, a bit of a dance, agitation, frenticism....its like Mosolov is throwing the kitchen sink at this and hoping something sticks. It's not so much the music for me but the structure. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike it but neither do I particularly like it. It just leaves me a bit confused but I'm glad Steve picked it as works like these create some nice discussion.


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## StevehamNY

Knorf said:


> But I do have an admitted soft-spot for 1920s-era Futurism, which this fits to a T: layered ostinati often at varying time-scales, static harmonic blocks, emergent melodic construction, mechanically insistent rhythms... Cool stuff!


Well-noted that this quartet is a prime exemplar of the Futurism movement that thrived, however briefly, in that particular place and time. There's a sense of strangeness (in the strict sense of something "not previously visited, seen, or encountered") that still sounds alien almost a century later. The Roslavets quartets (included on both of the albums I cited, and written by a composer whose life was no easier) share that same quality.

But Mosolov's quartet is still unique to me, and this is where the Novosibirsk recording stands out. I don't necessarily subscribe to the "national DNA" theory of getting the music right, but in this case maybe it's not a complete accident that the Novosibirsk are the one quartet I'm drawn to the most, even if they're not the most technically gifted. When they play it, there's more of a sense of foreboding than in the other accounts, with a good helping of despair and outright rebellious anger mixed in. 

It might be a total stretch to compare this music - as a product of its time (or more a _reaction _to its time) - to the punk rock that came out of the UK in the 1970's, but as someone who approaches music on purely non-technical, emotional terms, I swear I get some of the same feeling here as I do when I listen to "God Save the Queen."

(In both cases, I don't need to hear it very often. But when I'm in a certain kind of mood and I feel like the whole world is falling apart, nothing else will do.)

(Does any of this even make sense?)


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## SearsPoncho

Yes.


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> I don't really have any serious issues with it. I just find it a little confused. Even in quartets I don't enjoy I can see patterns, a story, landscapes, sound pictures, etc. With this I can't find a common path. It has militaristic parts and them can sound industrial, then we get some big Bartok Ian influences, a bit of a dance, agitation, frenticism....its like Mosolov is throwing the kitchen sink at this and hoping something sticks. It's not so much the music for me but the structure. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike it but neither do I particularly like it. It just leaves me a bit confused but I'm glad Steve picked it as works like these create some nice discussion.


Forgive me, what I'm about to say might sound like I'm criticizing you personally, but actually I have a lot of respect for your insights and listening skills. What I'm reading in the above paragraph is your trying to attach what you already know to what you're hearing, and nothing is sticking because in fact none of it applies. Bartók is not a significant influence, here. Your current listening experience, wide as it is, is showing it's limits, in my opinion. 

I actually hear the Mosolov Op. 24 as a very consistent, rather tightly constructed composition. But it is also very radical for its time, trying to do something which almost no one else around was attempting, and totally eschewing any overt connection to the past. Futurism rejected all conventional or traditional musical forms. In that sense, it was far more radical than for example the music of Schönberg. 

The Wikipedia article on Futurism isn't too bad. The communist sympathies of many in the movement was ironic, in retrospect. In any case:, worth a quick read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_(music)

Ok, so what should the new-to-this-music listener listen for with Mosolov? First of all, I'd resist trying to connect it to anything you already know, unless it's other explicitly Futurist art. Think of the ostinati like a building filled with machinery, clicking and clicking and clanging in different layers. Listen for an emergent melodic construction that is the product of the coincidence of layers. Don't expect much in the way of harmony to support the form; it's all about texture. It's really quite interesting, given a chance! 

Some Futurist-influenced composers didn't take things as far as Mosolov, but certainly some early Prokofiev has echoes of the movement as well, for one example.

ETA: Futurism wasn't just about machines and factories, it was all about finding artistic expression born from an industrial, urban age, one where there was electricity, automobiles, airplanes, radio, mechanized war machines, etc., all around... I.e. not art born from an agrarian, feudalist, class-dominated time, but from something eminently modern, rooted firmly in urban, technological life.


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, I only listened to the 1st movement. Too many distractions at Casa Poncho, but I promise I'll get to the rest asap. Perhaps this might be a musical Rorschach test, in which case I probably need some serious therapy because I liked the anarchy of what I heard. I usually don't put any value in the visual aspect of a performance, but I agree with Merl that it's interesting watching the Danel Quartet play it with occasional glances, smiles and, perhaps, befuddlement. Looking forward to hearing the rest but I'm pretty sure the female occupants of Casa Poncho don't necessarily share the same enthusiasm. I've been listening to some George Antheil, so maybe I'm a bit more open to this music at the moment.


----------



## Merl

Knorf said:


> Forgive me, what I'm about to say might sound like I'm criticizing you personally, but actually I have a lot of respect for your insights and listening skills. What I'm reading in the above paragraph is your trying to attach what you already know to what you're hearing, and nothing is sticking because in fact none of it applies. Bartók is not a significant influence, here. Your current listening experience, wide as it is, is showing it's limits, in my opinion.
> 
> I actually hear the Mosolov Op. 24 as a very consistent, rather tightly constructed composition. But it is also very radical for its time, trying to do something which almost no one else around was attempting, and totally eschewing any overt connection to the past. Futurism rejected all conventional or traditional musical forms. In that sense, it was far more radical than for example the music of Schönberg.
> 
> The Wikipedia article on Futurism isn't too bad. The communist sympathies of many in the movement was ironic, in retrospect. In any case:, worth a quick read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_(music)
> 
> Ok, so what should the new-to-this-music listener listen for with Mosolov? First of all, I'd resist trying to connect it to anything you already know, unless it's other explicitly Futurist art. Think of the ostinati like a building filled with machinery, clicking and clicking and clanging in different layers. Listen for an emergent melodic construction that is the product of the coincidence of layers. Don't expect much in the way of harmony to support the form; it's all about texture. It's really quite interesting, given a chance!
> 
> Some Futurist-influenced composers didn't take things as far as Mosolov, but certainly some early Prokofiev has echoes of the movement as well, for one example.
> 
> ETA: Futurism wasn't just about machines and factories, it was all about finding artistic expression born from an industrial, urban age, one where there was electricity, automobiles, airplanes, radio, mechanized war machines, etc., all around... I.e. not art born from an agrarian, feudalist, class-dominated time, but from something eminently modern, rooted firmly in urban, technological life.


Well that's me told! 🤔 Lol. And like that you disagreed with my clunky and not well-written summation, you grumpy, old duffer! 😛

Whilst you know I bow to your knowledge of futurism and music theory I hear what I hear (on the gameshow 'Catchphrase' it was "say what you see") and I hear some Bartok influences in there. However, it's not only me that hears some of the influence of Bartok in some of his music and in this particular quartet... 

"Mosolov used motifs of Turkmen folk music - not for the first time, and it seems that not only Turkmen folk provenance" floats in intensely dissonant contexts" in his String Quartet.....*Mosolov makes use of Bartok's techniques by altering the timbre of the instruments.*" (The Three Apostles of Russian Music: The Soviet Avant-garde - Gregor Tassie p259)

So whilst I agree that it was foolish and naive of me to say 'Bartokian' I hear some small elements of his style in this quartet and its likely that they, especially, stood out to me, possibly because I was more attuned to them but obviously they were highly disproportionate to the content of the quartet as a whole. As far as how I react personally to the music, I'd be intrigued if it's just me that reacted in the same way to this quartet. As I said, I don't dislike it (far from it - there are some sections I really like especially in the opening movement) but maintain that I don't need to understand music theory to think it sounds fragmented. I also agree with Steve in that of the two recorded accounts the unheard of Novosibirsk sound like they best represent the young drunken* composer. 

* I've just been reading a few selected pieces about his life and apparently he liked getting absolutely hammered and then became , by all accounts, a right pain in the a**e. 🥴


----------



## Art Rock

Current Listening Vol VIII [2022]


Bartok | Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion Murray Perahia, David Corkhill, Evelyn Glennie, Georg Solti




www.talkclassical.com





There are a few Mosolov CD's in my collection, but not the string quartets. So YouTube to the rescue. I selected the version by the Novosibirsk Quartet, and I threw in the second quartet as well (by members of the Moscow Contemporary Music Ensemble). The first quartet (1926) is mostly in the thorny futuristic/industrial style, and quite effective - I really enjoyed the listening experience. The second quartet (1942) is more conservative (a prison sentence in-between had its intended effect). Thanks for nominating this one!


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## Carmina Banana

I am having an unexpected reaction to this piece: at first, I was put off. It sounded noisy and unpleasant; not something I would be revisiting often. By the end of my first listen, I was really enjoying it. Something started to click for me. I could see how the composer was not throwing sounds together haphazardly, but exploring ideas freely and boldly. I started listening again from the beginning and, to my delight, heard it very differently. I don’t know that the piece is constructed neatly as a unified whole (it might be), but I can hear how moment A leads clearly to B which leads to C, etc. I would almost say it is engrossing to listen to.

I think my preconceived notion when I started listening was based on angsty feelings about world events of the time and now I am hearing it apart from those emotion-laden preconceptions. 

It will be interesting to see if my listening further evolves with this piece. 

There has been some good discussion (as usual) which is helping me gain perspective.


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## Knorf

Here's the thing vis-à-vis Bartók: Mosolov wrote his First Quartet in 1926. If he had heard by anything Bartók, it would have been a very little of the folk music stuff. Bartók hadn't even written his Third Quartet, yet (that's from 1927). Bartók's First Piano Concerto was from 1926, as was his Piano Sonata. _The Miraculous Mandarin_, a work which inarguably has a Futurist element to it, was also premiered in 1926, but was immediately banned.

Mosolov could not have heard any of that at the time of his First Quartet, or _The Iron Foundry, _for that matter, Mosolov's most famous piece. In 1926, he had just graduated from the (very conservative) Moscow Conservatory, and to all appearances (I'm not going to research this in depth) rarely, if ever, traveled freely outside the USSR. Certainly not by 1926.

Therefore, any so-called Bartók influence is off target, at least as far as the First Quartet is concerned. Moscow is very far from Hungary, or Köln, where _The Miraculous Mandarin _was first performed.

At most it might be considered a parallel development. That would be apt, since Mosolov and Bartók were both influenced by Futurism to some extent (more so I guess in the case of Mosolov). Mosolov, though, was far more vigorous in rejecting the formal models of the past, and only started adopting folk influences because the Soviet authorities forced him to do so, and ultimately to give up Futurism. Mosolov was literally sent to the Gulag as punishment for his originality.

Mosolov was a true original; there haven't been all that many of those. That doesn't mean you'll like it, though, of course, and no one I'm sure thinks Mosolov was as skillful as Bartók. But there's no way Bartók was a significant influence on Mosolov in the 1920s.

As for "fragmented," well that just your opinion. But it is justified I'd suggest by Mosolov's ethos. Mosolov in these works of the 1920s explicitly didn't make use of any standard formal procedures, but relied on block-like, juxtaposed groupings, and purely textural expansion. I'd also argue this is not inherently a flaw. YMMV.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> Here's the thing vis-à-vis Bartók: Mosolov wrote his First Quartet in 1926. If he had heard by anything Bartók, it would have been a very little of the folk music stuff. Bartók hadn't even written his Third Quartet, yet (that's from 1927). Bartók's First Piano Concerto was from 1926, as was his Piano Sonata. _The Miraculous Mandarin_, a work which inarguably has a Futurist element to it, was also premiered in 1926, but was immediately banned.
> 
> Mosolov could not have heard any of that at the time of his First Quartet, or _The Iron Foundry, _for that matter, Mosolov's most famous piece. In 1926, he had just graduated from the (very conservative) Moscow Conservatory, and to all appearances (I'm not going to research this in depth) rarely, if ever, traveled freely outside the USSR. Certainly not by 1926.
> 
> Therefore, any so-called Bartók influence is off target, at least as far as the First Quartet is concerned. Moscow is very far from Hungary, or Köln, where _The Miraculous Mandarin _was first performed.
> 
> At most it might be considered a parallel development. That would be apt, since Mosolov and Bartók were both influenced by Futurism to some extent (more so I guess in the case of Mosolov). Mosolov, though, was far more vigorous in rejecting the formal models of the past, and only started adopting folk influences because the Soviet authorities forced him to do so, and ultimately to give up Futurism. Mosolov was literally sent to the Gulag as punishment for his originality.
> 
> Mosolov was a true original; there haven't been all that many of those. That doesn't mean you'll like it, though, of course, and no one I'm sure thinks Mosolov was as skillful as Bartók. But there's no way Bartók was a significant influence on Mosolov in the 1920s.
> 
> As for "fragmented," well that just your opinion. But it is justified I'd suggest by Mosolov's ethos. Mosolov in these works of the 1920s explicitly didn't make use of any standard formal procedures, but relied on block-like, juxtaposed groupings, and purely textural expansion. I'd also argue this is not inherently a flaw. YMMV.


Maybe they were 'friends' on Facebook. 🤔 🤭


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## Knorf

Merl said:


> Maybe they were 'friends' on Facebook. 🤔 🤭


🤣

What a egregious failure on my part to not consider that!

In all seriousness, I can hear a few bits in Mosolov that are similar in a way to music by Bartók, but I also could hear, "it kind of sounds like Bartók, but that ain't Bartók." And I knew the stuff by Bartók that sounds a bit like Mosolov is also later; Bartók's Fourth Quartet was composed in 1928, for example...


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## StevehamNY

Art Rock said:


> The second quartet (1942) is more conservative (a prison sentence in-between had its intended effect).


By 1942, he was five years out of the gulag but still not permitted to live in Moscow, Leningrad, or Kiev. I can't blame the man for writing the music he was allowed to write at this point (nor can anyone else, unless they go spend eight months in a 1930s era gulag), but at the same time I can't even listen to this 2nd quartet (subtitled "On Patriotic Themes and Partisan Songs of 1812").

For me, even more than in this week's quartet, Mosolov's young genius is best captured in his piano music. If you want to hear one great sample, I highly recommend his Piano Sonata No.5 from 1925, as recorded by Daniele Lombardi. (Nobody else plays the last movement slow enough!)


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## Merl

It's slowly growing on me. Whilst it does so, I wrote a quick review for my blog. If you wanna read it do so. If not then do something else. 









Mosolov - String Quartet 1 op.24 (SQ review)


Alexander Mosolov was born in Kiev but he grew up in Moscow, where he studied piano and composition at the Moscow Conservatory with Gliere and Myaskovsky and soon became part of the Russian Futurist Movement. His early works weren't popular with the Stalinist government (and neither was he...




www.talkclassical.com


----------



## Malx

Well this has been an interesting weeks listening.
My interest was initially piqued by Mosolov's back story, the trials and tribulations of his personal life. I found the information regarding the 'Futurism' movement of equal interest, its lack of adherence to traditional forms and its radical new soundworld with an 'industrial' influence was fascinating.
However because I do not have much of an understanding of musical theory, virtually none, I was still struggling to get to grips how it fitted together - perhaps its not meant to fit coherently together maybe thats the grand concept behind the movement, I don't know, what I do know is as a non musically educated 'listener' I found the piece interesting in an academic way but I failed to get any real enjoyment from it.
I did mention to a fellow TC'er earlier in the week that I felt a loose connection to Prokofiev's second symphony which was also composed in the early 1920's so roughly the same time, if I am wide of the mark with that I'd be happy for somone to let me know and equally happy to understand the technical musical reasons why (keep it simple please).

Thanks Steve for getting me to listen to something I was not aware of by a composer I wasn't aware of - always interesting even if somtimes it doesn't totally click.


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## SearsPoncho

I listened to it all and liked it very much. I think I'm at the stage in my classical music journey where nothing really shocks me; I just accept whatever the composer is attempting without resistance and try to get something out of it to determine if the music is worth listening to. Call me crazy ("YOU'RE CRAZY!"), but I didn't really find anything terribly difficult when I broke it down into sections. Oh, here's some lower register part which is repeated (an ostinato-ish section?) with the first violin playing a "subject" over it; here's a dance that gets more frenzied and then something breaks...etc. Some good headbanging from the Danel Quartet, with the 1st violinist taking headbanger of the year award from Cliff Burton and Angus Young. This clearly needs multiple listening sessions to get more out of it, but I liked what I heard. It might not get into the regular listening rotation, but it's definitely something I would like to hear more of for an occasional kick in the tail and probably more, although what that "more" is is something I can't quite articulate yet. Yet.


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## Knorf

I really do not think a listener at all needs any formal music theory training to appreciate Mosolov's First Quartet, or any other music. Music theory provides a vocabulary and toolset to describe and explain things in music, but I think mainly a listener needs to listen with open ears, accepting the music on its own terms, for what it sets out to be, rather than reject it because of what it is not.

Knowing and appreciating how a piece doesn't follow a conventional formal teleology doesn't actually require being an expert on music forms, merely a willingness to accept that this is music that is trying something different from what is more commonly expected. That way, when the music does something one doesn't expect, that's what it's trying to do; this is a feature, or an asset (or at least can be).

Concerning Prokofiev, certainly he was also drawn to Futurism, and this is evident in a couple early works such as _Le pas d'acier _(yet another piece from 1926!) and as Malx mentioned his Second Symphony, from 1925. Those pieces were both premiered in Paris, during a time when Prokofiev was living abroad. Both pieces use much more conventional forms. The Second Symphony is a bit odd in that it's in two movements (modeled explicitly after Beethoven's Op. 111!), but the first is uses a pretty traditional sonata-allegro principle and the second is a straightforward theme and variations.

By the way, my interest in Futurism began decades ago, mainly because I was fascinated with stuff like Prokofiev's music mentioned above as well as Bartók's _The Miraculous Mandarin, _Honegger's _Pacific 231_, Varèse's _Arcana_ and _Ionisation_, and so on. It's pretty interesting stuff, and those pieces are terrific. I still enjoy them tremendously.

At some point back then I also heard Mosolov's _Iron Foundry_, but I admit I didn't look into his music much further at the time, because I found (and still find) the likes of Prokofiev, Varèse, Honegger, and Bartók (among others) substantially more interesting. Yet I wish I had given this First Quartet a chance back then! I think I would have liked it. Oddly, I revisted _Iron Foundry_ and found myself liking it better than I remembered. (Side note: I swiftly lost interest in Antheil, because I thought his music was clearly derivative of Stravinsky to an uncomfortable degree.)

Anyway, I think Futurism clearly had a much greater, longer-lived impact on the visual arts, and architecture, than it did in music*. But quite a lot of the music influenced by Futurism is very appealing to me.

*Yet it could be argued, the impact of Futurism in music lingered on past WWII, for example in the music of György Ligeti!


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## Allegro Con Brio

First off, I really enjoyed reading the discussion this week. What a great vintage Weekly Quartet conversation, full of friendly debate, diverse insights, a wonderful mix of technical and personal evaluations, and a healthy dose of humor. Nicely done.

Alexander Mosolov is a new name for me, and that reminded me that neglected Soviet composers comprise one of the largest crops of underlooked composers in the 20th century. When one's official standing with the regime is indicative of success, I suppose this is to be expected, but I haven't done much if any exploration of this field besides the big names. I had never heard the term "Futurism" applied to music before—I'd heard of Surrealism and Expressionism, which are a bit different even if there is some overlap—but it's not hard to see why Mosolov is considered a member of this group. There's a Ligeti-esque playfulness throughout the piece, and the music seems constructed out of the same fundamental colors and materials throughout its entire duration, but manifested in blocks of various sizes and textures, not unlike a Cubist painting. Thus, I detected a minimalistic vibe in that the emphasis is much more on sheer sonics than melody and harmony. It starts in haunting, memorable fashion with a late-Romantic chromatic tune that eventually becomes warped beyond recognition and spun through an infinite machine of transformations from highly pensive to brutal, crushing fury. Mosolov sure gets some massive explosions of sound-color out of the instruments in these violent portions—the portion around 7:34 in the Danel YouTube performance was particularly stunning. However, I do think the piece started to outstay its welcome after a while and seemed more or less to be stuck on a loop. The music isn't particularly dissonant or "extreme" relatively speaking, but it makes large demands on the listener due to its relentlessly static structure and materials. Yet there is a time and place for everything, and there was much here that appealed to me, or at the very least intrigued me. I kept trying to think of a composer to which to compare the idiom, and I couldn't think of any—this is an original voice through and through. Really interesting and nice choice, Steve!

Our venerable friend *Burbage *is due up next, but he has not been seen in a while. I hope he is OK and will soon make his return to furnish us once more with his unparalleled prose. Current schedule:

Burbage
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## Kreisler jr

I only got around listening to the quartet once but will certainly give it more time in the next few days. Mosolov was a fascinating composer before he was "broken" in the Gulag. I recommend his (1st?) piano concerto that is also a crazy mix with expressionism and "machine style" whereas the famous Zavod ("foundry", the word actually is more generally used, more like "factory"), a fragment from a ballet is more like "proof of concept" and not that interesting for repeated listening, I think.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Our venerable friend *Burbage *is due up next, but he has not been seen in a while. I hope he is OK and will soon make his return to furnish us once more with his unparalleled prose. Current schedule:


I did this once before and it worked. So I think it's time to shine the Burbage Signal in the sky one more time.


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I did this once before and it worked. So I think it's time to shine the Burbage Signal in the sky one more time.
> 
> View attachment 172701


Shall we hold a seance? I know he's not dead but it may summon him.


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## maestro267

What's the procedure if they don't show up by the end of the day?


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## Malx

maestro267 said:


> What's the procedure if they don't show up by the end of the day?


*ACB* - will alert the next on the list if they haven't already done so to be ready with their selection.
So I guess both *Kjetil Heggelund & Enthusiast* may be thinking about the possibility of an early call up.


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Yup. I’ve alerted Kjetil. Enthusiast, you’d be on deck if no response there. Hopefully we’ll have a pick in by tomorrow.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I'm ready with something! You ready?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Ok, here comes a composer I really like, but still have a hard time remembering the name of...


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## Philidor

Impatiently waiting ... ⌚


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## Malx

I found this information on the Edition Silvertrust website which may prove of some use to others like me who have scant knowledge of this composers quartets.

"Friedrich Gernsheim's Third String Quartet was composed in 1885. In form, it might well be called a Phantasy Quartet. The lyrical main theme to the first movement, Allegro, is emotionally charged. The second movement, though marked Allegro scherzando, is in reality a very beautiful, rich Intermezzo. The lively trio section is actually quicker in tempo than the main part. The the slow movements to Schumann's Op.41 No.1 and 3 may well have served as models for Gernsheim's own slow movement, Andante molto cantabile. A very artistic Theme and Variations serves as the quartet's finale."---Wilhelm Altmann, writing in his Handbook for String Quartet Players


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## Philidor

Thanks to StevehamNY for choosing Mosolov! I only knew his "Iron Foundry" before.

The quartet No. 1 - edgy. I heared more structure than content. The gestures are more or less similar to other works of that time, you easily recognize the 19th century's vocabulary, just without clear tonality and added by some "brute force" sounds. However, imho this seems to be rather an intermediate stage and not something where you could feel comfortable (or positively interested) after a multitude of auditions.

I think it won't be a favourite of mine for 1920's music, but I also think that the composer didn't aim for that.

However, thanks again to StevehamNY for choosing - I think it is an important builing block for music of this time, well worth knowing!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

The quartet by Friedrich Gernsheim that I chose for the week is the world premiere recording! I have been listening to the cd's of symphonies, that are some of the last cd's I bought (I'm all digital now...), and wanted to explore some chamber music by the composer. I have already listened to the 3rd several times and I feel it is a great addition to music in the realm of Schumann and Brahms. The reason for Gernsheim's neglect is rooted in the ban on Jewish music in Germany in the 2nd world war. Only recently have recordings been made on CPO.


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## Merl

I have another of Gernsheim's quartets by the Mandelring Quartet - no.2 (twinned with a Brahms quartet) and like it so I'm looking forward to hearing this one. Nice pick.


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## Kreisler jr

With all respect to Gernsheim, the ban of Jewish composers in the 1930s would not have had much of an impact. It didn't prevent Mendelssohn's music from remaining/becoming again popular after the war. There were lots of composers with some (or a lot of) success in the 19th/early 20th century who faded pretty quickly. Kirchner, Herzogenberg, Raff, Draeseke, Reinecke, Rheinberger etc. didn't fare much better after their death than Gernsheim regardless of ethnicity or prejudice or offical bans.


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## Philidor

That's simply true.

2nd rate music of some minority composer is still 2nd rate music.


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## StevehamNY

*Kjetil, it's been a crazy time around here, both locally and nationally. The lush, romantic quartet you've chosen for this week is exactly what I needed to hear today. Just close my eyes and remember that everything doesn't have to be ugly and F-ed up in the world. 

I didn't know Gernsheim until today, but now I'm glad I do. Thank you.*


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## Merl

I'll listen later.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Philidor said:


> That's simply true.
> 
> 2nd rate music of some minority composer is still 2nd rate music.


I don't entirely agree with this, that we've forgotten or don't know who Gernsheim certainly has nothing to do with said ban, but there could very well be other cases of composers lost to history who were first rate.

Anyway, it was a nice romantic quartet


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## hammeredklavier

StevehamNY said:


>











UFOs: Threat or Menace?


Any civilization that has mastered the manipulation of time and space to traverse the interstellar night must have attained a high degree of spiritual evolution as well, science and spirituality go hand in hand the higher you go. So the brilliance of the Universe is that, by its very structure...




www.talkclassical.com


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## maestro267

There is no such thing as 2nd-rate music. By the mere act of composing music they've proved themselves to be better than us mere mortals and have left something meaningful in the world.


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## Philidor

maestro267 said:


> There is no such thing as 2nd-rate music.


Of course there is such thing as 2nd rate music. Think for Muzak. Think for Richard Wagner's symphonies or piano sonatas - there might by intrinsic reasons why (almost) nobody is performing them.

The fact that not every mortal is able to compose a string quartet is not an adequate criterion from my point of view. Even in forums on classical music you get the trials from amateur composers for their first symphony, string quartet, piano sonata, you name it. Not everything among this is 1st rate music imho.

Not all mortals are able to play football. But there are professional football players in the Premier League and others in the second league, however it is called. And others that never played in either of them.


maestro267 said:


> something meaningful


That's the point - meaningful for whom? Lifetime is finite and I don't want to spend too much time with Wagner's symphonies ...


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## Philidor

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> there could very well be other cases of composers lost to history who were first rate.


Fully agreed. I think we all hope that some musicologist will excavate the forgotten genius who will join Haydn's and Mozart's league.

For late baroque, I think that Zelenka can fill be gap - there is not only Bach (and Händel, if you like).

Hopefully the guys and girls will find more of that kind. Maybe Gernsheim and Rheinberger and Fuchs are not of this kind - who knows.


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## Merl

On a first listen I enjoyed this unashamedly romantic work. I thought the 1st and slow movements were impressive first time round. Will listen again tomorrow.


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## hammeredklavier

Philidor said:


> That's the point - meaningful for whom? Lifetime is finite and I don't want to spend too much time with Wagner's symphonies ...


Sure, there are accepted ways of writing counterpoint, for example, but the distinction between 1st, 2nd,3rd.. rates doesn't justify aesthetic judgements like "X is corny".
Some might say only the favorite excerpts from Wagner operas are first rate, and the rest of the operas isn't worth listening to. Others might say they're too pleasing and adhering too much to popular tastes, and value the lesser-known parts more.


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## Philidor

hammeredklavier said:


> Sure, there are accepted ways of writing counterpoint, for example, but the distinction between 1st, 2nd,3rd.. rates doesn't justify aesthetic judgements like "X is corny".


I think nobody said "X is corny". However, I think that there is some common sense in "there are compositions of various quality." This remains mostly an aesthetic jugdement, and sometimes the individual judgement is merely the guilty plea that "I did not understand this music".


hammeredklavier said:


> Some might say only the favorite excerpts from Wagner operas are first rate, and the rest of the operas isn't worth listening to. Others might say they're too pleasing and adhering too much to popular tastes, and value the lesser-known parts more.


I think that the less popular excerpts from Wagner have their meaning and importance by the architecture of his operas. Maybe they are not justified on their own - but that's not why they are written.

However: Lifetime is finite, and standing in front of my CD shelf (or Qobuz catalogue), I am the only one to whom I have to account my choice.


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## hammeredklavier

Philidor said:


> who will join Haydn's and Mozart's league.


There's a lot to discuss in regarding that topic as well. (ex. Hypocrisy vibe)

Franz Ignaz von Beecke (1733-1803)
piano quintet in A minor (1770):
youtube.com/watch?v=kFqYjVkNkE4&t=7m
youtube.com/watch?v=7kV2eR4GrRw&t=4m40s
youtube.com/watch?v=xzFEibi9Nes
string quartet in C (c. 1780):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra9XcI9nGhU
youtube.com/watch?v=csk_Nni1Szo
youtube.com/watch?v=Ta_3jxHda0s





I'm not trying to say he's in their league or anything here, but his voice can be viewed as "different".


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## Philidor

hammeredklavier said:


> There's a lot to discuss in regarding that topic as well.


That's exactly what makes a forum on classical music worth joining. The possibility to discuss ...


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## Merl

Listening to this week's Gernsheim quartet without interruption (twice since I got home) I was really struck by the quality of the writing. This is essentially bright, sunny, romantic music that has a feelgood character. The Andante, which in some romantic quartets can be uber-melancholy, is a more smiling, loving slow movement (reminding me of how Elgar did a similar thing in his quartet). This is an enjoyable quartet with enough going on to keep me entertained and a rather Mendelssohnian vibe to it. The Diogenes recording is as impressive as much of their Schubert cycle with a real, natural flow to it.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Nice! I'm glad you listened to it more than once  It's the only classical piece I listened to the last week and I didn't get sick of it, which to me says it's a great piece of music. I like to think I have great taste and wanted to find a hidden gem since every major composer has been discussed here. I just wish Gernsheims music would spark a positive discussion...😇


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## Merl

I relistened to Gernsheim's 2nd quartet, last night, a recording I've had for some time (an earlier recording of the Mandelring quartet) . Unsurprisingly that one is paired with Brahms 2nd and occupies a very similar soundworld. Incidentally whilst I'd recommend that Audite disc that's only because of the Gernsheim work. That whole disc has a slightly strange acoustic and is too closely recorded but it's worth hearing the Gernsheim.


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## HerbertNorman

After reading the reactions here I had a bit of a bittersweet feeling when I switched the work on tbh. A very romantic work , similar to an early work by a German romantic composer like Brahms, Mendelssohn, even Schumann for example...was my impression. I think the Diogenes quartet play it well as it ebbs and flows as it should do imo.
Appreciate it, as I hadn't heard it before


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## Art Rock

Listening to the CPO CD on Youtube. I have Gersheim's symphonies, violin concertos, piano quartets and piano quintets on CD, but no string quartets. I enjoyed it a lot. A beautiful romantic work, not at the level of the very best, but well worth listening to. Nice choice! The first quartet (around 1870) is OK, but I find it clearly less interesting.


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## Merl

HerbertNorman said:


> After reading the reactions here I had a bit of a bittersweet feeling when I switched the work on tbh. A very romantic work , similar to an early work by a German romantic composer like *Brahms, Mendelssohn, even Schumann *for example...was my impression. I think the Diogenes quartet play it well as it ebbs and flows as it should do imo.
> Appreciate it, as I hadn't heard it before


Yep, I hear exactly the same influences. Especially the latter two. 😉🎻🎧🎼


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## SearsPoncho

Interesting stuff. Very Brahmsian 1st movement and I also liked the more overt, romantic emotionalism of the third, with some busy counterpoint and polyphony. On 1st listen, it sounds like a lot of the special sauce is in the inner voices. Theme and Variations are hard to pull off, especially because they are often used as a final movement with the added pressure of putting the bow on a long, multi-movement work. I look forward to hearing the Theme and Variations finale again.

Nice choice, Kjetil!


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## Malx

At first I thought to myself, ah another one of these ten a penny romantic quartets, the first background listen didn't make me stop and pay more attention. However, now I have played the quartet once each day this week, whilst there is nothing remarkable, unique, groundbreaking or whatever I have concluded that here is a very worthy romantic quartet that I am more than happy to have been made aware of.
I will pass no more comment other than to say yes the first movement sounds very Brahmsian and there are elements of Mendelssohn, do I hear a little Schubert? but ultimately it is an enjoyable listen and there is nothing wrong with that!


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## Carmina Banana

I enjoyed this quartet and, as many have said, I can’t help but feel the spirit of Brahms while listening to it.

The big, generous melodies, turgidly emotional (I can picture the players leaning back in their chairs, smiling beneficently); the rumbling bass danger-signaling activity (I can imagine the players moving to the edge of their chairs, jowls jiggling). Like some Brahms pieces, it all ends peacefully. It is gratifying, life-affirming, ultimately comforting. 

It probably isn’t fair to compare Gernsheim to a composer like Brahms. It is even possible that he used Brahmsisms before Brahms. I think it is often the case that a style or sound is just in the air. There can be a culture of music that is so pervasive that it is almost impossible to not get sucked in. History sorts it out and gives us a small handful of representatives of that culture. Why and how those individuals achieve that status is very interesting. 

Likewise, at this very moment there are millions of young people concocting music in their bedrooms, recording it and putting it out for the public to consume. I’m sure there are many artists who are worthy and represent current trends very well. Only a small few will become household names. It would be ingenuous to say it depends on their talent. This sorting out process is complex, interesting (and probably unfair). 

Perhaps we are doing our part to set the record straight by listening to Gernsheim and reconsidering someone who history did not exalt as much as others? 

At any rate, I enjoyed this piece and will gladly come back to it for repeated listens.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I agree with the general consensus: a really nice, smooth-on-the-ears piece of well-crafted music; not groundbreaking but thoroughly attractive. I really enjoyed the lush, florid sound world of the first movement; it's quintessentially "sunny" sounding music and just really hits the spot in every way. The adjective "cute" rarely comes to mind for me (in a positive sense, at least) when it comes to music, but I can't describe the second movement any other way. I thought the Glazunov scherzo from a few weeks ago was one of the most fun things I'd ever heard—this is definitely up there too. Definite shades of Dvorák here. I thought the Andante was the most "Brahmsian" with its aching, wistful mood and rich melodicism. The theme and variations finale perhaps isn't masterful and doesn't carry as much weight as it should, but I did like the concise little journey that it takes us on, with a bevy of fleeting moods captured nicely in succession and winding down peacefully on an "Amen cadence". How nice! Much of the quartet has a distinctive lilting "Viennese" sound to it and reminds me of a clear, cool spring day in the Alps, bursting with life and joy. As CB says, there are so many great things simmering under the surface of the established "canon." This thread routinely awakens me to this fact and encourages me to explore with an open mind. A most enjoyable choice. The Diogenes recording is the only one available on my streaming, and it sounds superb to me—lovingly and richly played with a very clear recording to boot.

*Enthusiast *will be our next nominator.


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## Enthusiast

Ah right. I recently came across Friedrich Cerha's quartets and found them enjoyable both immediately and after a few hearings. Somehow I hear the ghost of Beethoven! So, if it is OK with everyone, I propose Cerha's second quartet. I think there is only one recording - that by the Arditti Quartet.


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## Philidor

I have to rewrite my impression on *Gernsheim's op. 51*. At first listening I wasn't impressed too much. However, in the first movement there is a dense texture of individual lines with individual rhythms, not always with simple proportions, offering much more for the ear than "melody and accompaniment". I would say, high-level quartet writing in terms of craftsmanship. Together with the changes in lighting and shadowing, a rich movement, which contains much more than its handy and innocuous surface. Music in continuous change of tempo, mood, complexitiy, everything with smooth transitions, saying that the whole movement is a permanent transition is maybe too far, but not much.

The same ongoing change attitude occurs in the second, lots of soli, dialogues, discussions with four instruments.

In the Andante it is maybe not so much about change in texture etc. However, Gernsheim managed to keep things flowing, creating moments of peace from time to time and getting back to the gentle proceeding. The moments with the 1st violin in highest range offer width and brightness, widening the music's scope and horizon.

Of course, a set of variations is (mostly) exactly the opposite of presenting smooth transitions ... this is what happens in the last movement. However, it is great that Gernsheim reminds moods from earlier movements in the end - even the first subject from the first movement is quoted - as Brahms did in op. 67. 

After all, a very delectable string quartet from late 19th century enriching the repertoire. Thanks to Kjetil Heggelund for choosing this one. Will be streaming in here from time to time!


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## Malx

Right I'm going to dive in head first with this one - Cerha a composer I hadn't heard of until earlier this week seeing Enthusiasts posts. I haven't read a thing about this work as is my preferred way to approach something entirely new to me, I've given it a first and second listen, not an initial background listen like I usually do.

Here are my uneducated first impressions:
The work starts with a period of quiet introspection which gradually developes into various themes that switch from instrument to instrument or instrumental combinations, there is an underlying pulse that keeps things moving along, for me at times the pulse brought to mind the forward movement of a steam train. These themes culminate in an angular, fairly dissonant crescendo just before the eight minute mark, thereafter things calm and slow until at around thirteen minutes into the piece a slow extended period of reflective playing leads gently towards the works conclusion, before it reaches its conclusion there is a period of staccato chords.
This extended slowing may be a little prolonged imo, but not knowing the composers intentions I suspect it is to make a particular point which I am not aware of, the passage of time?


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## Mandryka

Enthusiast said:


> Ah right. I recently came across Friedrich Cerha's quartets and found them enjoyable both immediately and after a few hearings. Somehow I hear the ghost of Beethoven! So, if it is OK with everyone, I propose Cerha's second quartet. I think there is only one recording - that by the Arditti Quartet.


What do you hear that makes you think of Beethoven?


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## Merl

Never heard of Cerha. Intrigued. 🎼 🎻

Edit: I just listened to this and I enjoyed the Arditti performance (theyre a class act). Remember this is my first listen so anything I say will probably be utter tosh. The one thing that struck me (after doing a little reading around the quartets) was that Cerha cites the influence of music from Papua New Guinea here. I don't know about anyone else but there was little evidence, on my mind, of those types of 'sing- sing' structures or Polynesian rhythms in that quartet. Like Malx I heard a more motoric type of architecture around the piece. With such pieces with arc-like structures, I'll admit I can sometimes lose interest at one or each end of the arc but this was different and the faint pulse is subtle but effective. I never felt it was contrived or the piece became bogged down in generic ghostly glissandi or those painful silences and felt like I wanted to hear this again. . I'll come back to this tomorrow for another listen. Interesting work.


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## hammeredklavier

Cerha: String Quartets "Cerha's second quartet, written in 1990, is a more organic whole. Cerha cites the influence of music from Papua New Guinea, but the extra-European influence is not as blatant as in the first quartet. The quartet consists of a single arch-like movement arising out of silence, marked by increasing polyphony. As the work progresses, the profusion of melodic ideas gives way to sections of rhythmic simplicity, which gradually increase in speed before beginning an inevitable retreat into static chords."


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## Enthusiast

Mandryka said:


> What do you hear that makes you think of Beethoven?


Nothing very profound. But I think it is mostly the juxtaposition of somewhat angular rhythmically driven music with more smooth lyrical music. Doing this, or perhaps his way of doing it, somehow reminded me of Beethoven.


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## Malx

Still thoroughly enjoying this quartet from, for me, a new composer. The only slight misgiving I have is the length of the tail of the arc as I stated in my first post I felt it may be drawn out too long - but thats just my take.
Very nice choice Enthusiast.


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## HerbertNorman

I am with @Malx in that it might be a little stretched , but I enjoyed my first experience with this composer's work. 
Interesting choice @Enthusiast , grateful to discover yet another piece of music .


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## StevehamNY

Also, enjoying! Thanks, @Enthusiast!

I personally don't mind the extended time span as I feel it adds to the zen quality of the piece. (But then I can also listen to Feldman's SQII in one or two sittings.)

Hypothetical question: How many modern quartets would we never get a chance to hear if the Ardittis weren't around?


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> Hypothetical question: How many modern quartets would we never get a chance to hear if the Ardittis weren't around?


The optimist in me would suggest we'd still get to hear them. Surely some quartet would be happy to play these fine works, the question might be would they be played to the same standard?


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## Carmina Banana

This won’t make my desert island playlist, but I have enjoyed a couple listens. 

It makes me think of form and how there are some very artificial conventions regarding form that we cling to. This piece proceeds along its own road of discovery or appears to. I do really like a composition that invites me in to a process like this. I am a big fan of free improvisation and this has similar traits.

If this is a trend with new(ish) composers, I am all for it. 

Having said all of that about the form of the piece, the content is not always to my liking. Sometimes it just seems kind of noisy and unpleasant. I do like the ending. It is almost comical (though I pretty sure that was not the intent). How long does it take for four string players to decide on a chord?


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## Mandryka

.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> .


Worst Mandryka post ever!


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## Mandryka

This quartet is a diptych. A busy and long part 1, which just sort of builds itself up to a climax and then winds down. Then at about 15 minutes in, we have a sparse section of serious, disturbing, weighty chords. What's it all about? Your guess is as good as mine but the stark contrast in the two sections of a single movement begs that hermeneutic question I think.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Worst Mandryka post ever!


. .


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## SearsPoncho

Although the 1st section sounded like it was going in the direction of the late 20th century avant-garde, a repeated motif, which I believe sounds somewhat similar to part of Debussy's Violin Sonata (at the 3"22 mark), comes in. It even sounds like it gets a "mini-development.", About 5-6 minutes in, the music doesn't sound so radical at all . As has been noted, the music gets quite busy. It would be interesting to see the score to discern if each instrument plays in different meter at various sections. The musicians atrophy and the whole thing becomes sparse. I do like some of the blocks of dissonance when this process begins - it's somewhat reminiscent of Ligeti's blocks of dissonance and alleged micropolyphony. That's probably not an accurate comparison, but it came to mind, in the moment. I agree with Mal's assessment of the tail end, which is prolonged and not necessarily engaging, compelling or interesting, although the composer probably found it necessary to complete his full arc. 

So what do I make of all this? I don't know. I didn't get Bartok's quartets on 1st listen. I'm not comparing the quality of this work to Bartok, just illustrating the point that it's not easy to fully digest such music the first time around.


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## Merl

I've done a very brief blog of my thoughts but it's little more than I've already said. I enjoyed this challenging (for me) quartet and the Arditti Quartet play with customary aplomb. Who says I'm not prepared to step out of my comfort zone?  As I've said before, you don't have to have an in-depth 'understanding' of a piece, knowledge of music history or be fully conversant with music theory to enjoy it. Nice choice, Enthusiast. Thanks. Time for me to shuffle back to my comfort zone. 👴


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## Carmina Banana

A couple more random thoughts:

I wonder if the tunes that arise near the beginning that SearsPoncho described as less than avant-garde are the folk elements that Cerha was attempting to incorporate. 

These tunes, rhythms and other ideas seemed to be thrust out by individuals who reiterate until their idea is picked up by others or they just get tired and move on to something else. In this way, it reminds me of some meetings I’ve attended. 

Last and least important, I wonder if Cerha finally broke down and bought that beard trimmer after the less than flattering portrait of him on the cover. I guess I shouldn’t talk since I shave in the shower and tend to miss a lot.


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## Merl

^ TMI, CB! 🤢


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> I've done a very brief blog of my thoughts but it's little more than I've already said. I enjoyed this challenging (for me) quartet and the Arditti Quartet play with customary aplomb. Who says I'm not prepared to step out of my comfort zone?  As I've said before, you don't have to have an in-depth 'understanding' of a piece, knowledge of music history or be fully conversant with music theory to enjoy it. Nice choice, Enthusiast. Thanks. *Time for me to shuffle back to my comfort zone.* 👴


Don't doze off, Merl.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I listened to this quartet for the first time just a few weeks ago. I liked it very much! Will listen again to confirm and provide some more thoughts, hopefully before tomorrow


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## Mandryka

Carmina Banana said:


> A couple more random thoughts:
> 
> I wonder if the tunes that arise near the beginning that SearsPoncho described as less than avant-garde are the folk elements that Cerha was attempting to incorporate.
> 
> These tunes, rhythms and other ideas seemed to be thrust out by individuals who reiterate until their idea is picked up by others or they just get tired and move on to something else. In this way, it reminds me of some meetings I’ve attended.
> 
> Last and least important, I wonder if Cerha finally broke down and bought that beard trimmer after the less than flattering portrait of him on the cover. I guess I shouldn’t talk since I shave in the shower and tend to miss a lot.


In the late 1980s and 1990s there were other composers who were exploring traditional music, even at the level of tunes, and were getting a good reception in Darmstadt - Walter Zimmermann’s Lokal Musik is an example. 

These Darmstadt composers needed to find an audience, something modernism had failed to achieve, hence folk was an avenue to explore.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> I listened to this quartet for the first time just a few weeks ago. I liked it very much! Will listen again to confirm and provide some more thoughts, hopefully before tomorrow


2nd time around liked it a lot too, but the entire 2nd part, and especially the last ca. 2 minutes (with that repeating chord), was certainly a step below the first part. That first part, up until the climax begins to decelerate and there's some interlocking of crossed meters and timbres, is quite something, bright, playful but tense, and, as others have pointed out, it indeed has some tunes, particularly in the beggining. Like CB, I agree that here and throughout the first part the aim to go for something folk-like is readily apparent


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## SearsPoncho

Carmina Banana said:


> A couple more random thoughts:
> 
> I wonder if the tunes that arise near the beginning that SearsPoncho described as less than avant-garde are the folk elements that Cerha was attempting to incorporate.
> 
> These tunes, rhythms and other ideas seemed to be thrust out by individuals who reiterate until their idea is picked up by others or they just get tired and move on to something else. In this way, it reminds me of some meetings I’ve attended.
> 
> Last and least important, I wonder if Cerha finally broke down and bought that beard trimmer after the less than flattering portrait of him on the cover. I guess I shouldn’t talk since I shave in the shower and tend to miss a lot.


CB: Non-showering activities in a shower are overrated and never go quite as well as one thinks they will.


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## Allegro Con Brio

School started for me again this week, so I'm back to a busy schedule and hence limited listening time. I haven't got around to this one yet, but I'll carve out some time tomorrow to do so. For now, just a reminder that *Kreisler jr *is up next.


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## Kreisler jr

I will announce a quartet on sunday afternoon (CEST).


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## Allegro Con Brio

What an interesting piece! This is definitely one of those that forces you to listen for the "space between the notes" and which makes you hear sound in different ways. I get the impression that the composer is trying to shatter every possible pitch into an infinite spectrum of possibilities, like a sonic fractal. I close my eyes and envision shapes, colors, and textures being slapped onto a canvas. Really effective. The opening is haunting and grabbing, with calm bell-like tones, but it then morphs into a total frenzy that somehow works. This first half sounded a LOT like jazz to me—to an uncanny degree. The cello slaps out a grooving rhythm while the other three combine to splash wild harmonies all over the place, with the first violin in particular wailing and sliding like Coltrane on lead. I'm actually not a huge jazz fan (I like some), but this really stuck with me. After the ferocious climax, in which the flying scraps of melodic interest are completely abandoned in favor of sheer chaos, the music settles down into obsessive undulation, like a wayward lifeboat tossed about on the waves, then becomes a great chasm of silence punctuated with beautiful chords. The last couple minutes, however, did feel anticlimactic as the exact same chord was simply repeated to an interminable degree. But overall, yet another piece in a completely distinctive style which could not be confused for any other composer's vision of what can be done with 16 strings. Truly wonderful!


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## Kreisler jr

As I prefer some variety I think about a few different candidates and then try to pick one not too similar in style or epoch to the ones of the preceding weeks. So because there was a 20th century and a romantic quartet in the last weeks, it's got to be a classical one from me and because Beethoven has not been chosen for a while, it is

*Ludwig van Beethoven: String quartet No. 1 F major op.18, 1*

There are obviously a lot of recordings to choose from (but this would have been similar if my other classical or romantic candidates had been selected) and I'll probably not manage to get through the ~10 recordings I own.


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## Merl

A fine choice, Kreisler. I know I've blogged this one already but I'll have a relisten and check over a few that didn't make it onto my shortlist last time. Btw, I can put up with lots of different interpretations of this piece but a turn-off for me is taking the 2nd movement way too slow.


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## SearsPoncho

Kreisler jr said:


> As I prefer some variety I think about a few different candidates and then try to pick one not too similar in style or epoch to the ones of the preceding weeks. So because there was a 20th century and a romantic quartet in the last weeks, it's got to be a classical one from me and because Beethoven has not been chosen for a while, it is
> 
> *Ludwig van Beethoven: String quartet No. 1 F major op.18, 1*
> 
> There are obviously a lot of recordings to choose from (but this would have been similar if my other classical or romantic candidates had been selected) and I'll probably not manage to get through the ~10 recordings I own.


I just listened to it yesterday. Quartetto Italiano.


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## Philidor

I am late again for *Friedrich Cerha: String Quartet No. 2 (1989/90)*










A difficult piece.

It is fully conservative in terms of elements - I think there is no element that could not appear in some string quartet of Reger, Zemlinsky or Schönberg 1+2 - maybe with slight alignments towards tonality. I am speaking about little motifs.

The same holds for rhythm. I think there are only a few sections where rhythm is more complex than with the composers stated above.

It is "just" harmony and the rules for counterpoint that discard this kind of setting from late romantic music. (What did I miss?)

Are emotions in the piece? (Ok, this is a question on the listener's side, however ...) - The great slowdown in the middle of the piece (15:00 and a couple of minutes before) reminded me the ending of Pacific 231. At this point I listened to it a second time, which raised this question:

Was this the core idea of the piece? Standstill in the beginning, smooth acceleration of inner movement, faster acceleration ( f'''(x) > 0 ) at about 5:20 until some climax at about 07:40 (do the pizzicati at this section have some function, e. g. main theme of the piece or similar?)

There are some trials for a second breath, which don't lead to some recovery of the energy at the climax. Big slowdown. At 11:00 there is something like a melody, similar to the Kärtnerlied in Berg's Concerto. Again at 12:00.

Is it really Pacific 231 for string quartet, 66 years later? What did I miss? However, it is an interesting piece.

Yes, I think the main idea is the acceleration and the slowdown. That's different from Reger, Zemlinsky and Schönberg. However, Reger did similiar things in his Passacaglias for organ. And the idea of getting faster and slowing down is known from Pacific 231.

What did I miss?


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## StevehamNY

As I understand, #1 was actually the second quartet LVB wrote, but as earsense puts it, "For its energy, drama and craftsmanship, it is a perfect opening move, a showcase for this new young maverick to break ground in a daunting and already mature tradition."

On a much more personal note, as the "first track on the album" it never fails to pull me in, from the very first time I heard it. It's pretty much impossible for me to stop listening to it, and usually a couple of hours will go by because I have to keep listening to at least the first six. I _never _get tired of hearing this music, not even slightly, which is not something I can say too often.

So thanks, Kreisler, for ruining my productivity this week!


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## Knorf

I rate Cerha's music highly, with most of my acquaintance with his music coming from his works for larger forces, so I was eager to hear this quartet, and wasn't in the least disappointed. 

Once again, I'm puzzled any regular in this thread would think of this quartet on even a first listen as "difficult." There's not a tremendous density of ideas (in fact, event changes unfold gradually) , few extended techniques beyond those established for hundreds of years, lots of polyphony at times but a not at all abrasive esthetic in terms of vocabulary, and it is relatively short. Stylistically and formally (not the arch form which is straightforward, but the pacing or balance of sections) it's a bit novel, but surely these are things no issue for a seasoned listener?

I do admit that for me the only "difficult" music is that which bores me. Cerha never does; I've made a mental note to myself to investigate soon his other works for string quartet.

It's the novel elements aluded to above that I enjoyed: the style and character as well as how the pacing of how ideas evolve/develop and are balanced as a whole. This struck me in this piece as rather literary, even novelistic. I didn't find any program note to support hearing the quartet this way, but I can't shake the impression. 

Beethoven No. 1: a great quartet. It's always fun to revisit this work. We tend to think of it as "early," but it's only early in a relative sense in his whole body of work. This is a mature, well-crafted quartet.


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## Philidor

StevehamNY said:


> As I understand, #1 was actually the second quartet LVB wrote


To my best knowledge, the order of writing was 3 - 1 - 2 - 5 - 4 - 6.


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## Philidor

Knorf said:


> We tend to think of it as "early," but it's only early in a relative sense in his whole body of work.


Agreed. If Beethoven had died after op. 18, this opus would be regarded as the climax of string quartet writing of the 18th century, together with Haydn's opp. 76/77.

Besides, Beethoven was 30 years old when he wrote op. 18. Same age as Mozart with his quartets dedicated to Haydn.


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## Knorf

Philidor said:


> To my best knowledge, the order of writing was 3 - 1 - 2 - 5 - 4 - 6.


I believe this is correct! I think it was the publisher who tinkered with the order? I'll check this later.

Fun fact: Beethoven made major revisions to No. 1, and the earlier version is very rarely heard.


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## Philidor

Knorf said:


> Once again, I'm puzzled any regular in this thread would think of this quartet on even a first listen as "difficult."


I think, it is not really a description of the piece but a description of the listener: "I have difficulties to get access to this music". 

So, right, the phrase "the music is difficult" is maybe not entirely correct.


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> I believe this is correct! I think it was the publisher who tinkered with the order? I'll check this later.
> 
> Fun fact: Beethoven made major revisions to No. 1, and the earlier version is very rarely heard.


The Endellion Quartet recorded both versions of Op.18/1 in their Beethoven cycle. The reconstructed original version of op.18/1 is interesting to hear. Listening on its own, initially, it doesn't sound that much different but in the second theme there are some striking differences, the final part of the exposition and the final Coda are more extended. Listening to the the revised account there is a lot of evidence of streamlining and it is more concise and works much better but the original is well worth a listen just to see what Beethoven missed out the 2nd time round.


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## Mandryka

With all due respect to Beethoven, I just want to make a point about the Cerha. The composer actually "explained" the end of the piece, the enigmatic last five minutes. where all the busy tangled voices in the preceding 15 minutes just seem to dissolve, amalgamate into static clusters of notes.

_I acquired a Papuan skull trophy hook at the time of composition. The ancient myth of attaining salvation, of overcoming death through human sacrifice (still sublimated in Christianity) moved me greatly and the paralyzing, timeless hopelessness in the situation of sacrificing or being a victim may be behind the expression of this conclusion._ ( Cerha, Schriften, p.261f)


This also of interest I think, the music which followed the second quartet, Langegger Nachtmusik III

Friedrich Cerha (*1926): Langegger Nachtmusik III (1990-1991) - YouTube


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## SearsPoncho

It's always a pleasure listening to Beethoven's earlier works, such as the Op. 18 quartets. Those who jump to the Op. 50's, B's second period, which contain iconic, revolutionary works, are really missing out on a good deal of "revolutionary" music. The slow movements of the Op.18 quartets, including this week's pick, demonstrate that there certainly was a new kid in town. 

Great Choice, Kreisler!


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> With all due respect to Beethoven, I just want to make a point about the Cerha. The composer actually "explained" the end of the piece, the enigmatic last five minutes. where all the busy tangled voices in the preceding 15 minutes just seem to dissolve, amalgamate into static clusters of notes.
> 
> _I acquired a Papuan skull trophy hook at the time of composition. The ancient myth of attaining salvation, of overcoming death through human sacrifice (still sublimated in Christianity) moved me greatly and the paralyzing, timeless hopelessness in the situation of sacrificing or being a victim may be behind the expression of this conclusion._ ( Cerha, Schriften, p.261f)
> 
> 
> This also of interest I think, the music which followed the second quartet, Langegger Nachtmusik III
> 
> Friedrich Cerha (*1926): Langegger Nachtmusik III (1990-1991) - YouTube



Oh and the first part presumably has something to do with this sort of music 

▒ Music of Oceania: The Iatmul of Papua New Guinea - YouTube


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Beethoven's "first" quartet is a great choice for me, because while I regularly listen to the Late Quartets, I've pretty much neglected everything (with the exception of the Razumovskys) below op. 127. So this week I'll try to rectify this and listen to as many recordings of this quartet as I can


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## Kreisler jr

There were 2 middle and 3 late quartets covered already, so I thought it was time for an early one and this one is clearly my favorite.
The exact order of composition seems difficult to establish and has to remain ambiguous because as has been mentioned, this quartet was revised and so was the presumeably earlier #3 the finale of which is probably later than (even the revised?) #1. (For some time people also suspected that #4 could be much earlier, even (partly?) from the Bonn years but this is probably not the case.) It doesn't matter and it was also very common to arrange the publication order differently, so this is usually what counts for me.


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## HerbertNorman

Nice choice by @Kreisler jr , it has been a while since I listened to the early quartets of Beethoven. I got out the set by the Alban Berg Quartet and really enjoyed it.
I agree the remark about the variety , good idea to have a classical work following a modern SQ .
Cerha wasn't an easy listen for me , yet I felt different after a few listens , it really grew on me.

Looking forward to reading the comments on the thread here


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Merl said:


> Btw, I can put up with lots of different interpretations of this piece but a turn-off for me is taking the 2nd movement way too slow.


At the moment I completely disagree with this statement 😂 The Véghs take a whopping +11 minutes on the 2nd, and the Bergs also take it rather slow, and I loved both interpretations, at least where that 2nd movement is concerned. The Jerusalems and the Tokyos on Harmonia Mundi provide very similar interpretations of the whole thing, but I think the Tokyos highlight the awesomeness and disruptive character of the 1st and 4th movements much better, on that I think these two recordings also take an edge over the Bergs, Tákacs and the Italianos, these last two in particular failed to grab me


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## Merl

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> At the moment I completely disagree with this statement 😂 The Véghs take a whopping +11 minutes on the 2nd, and the Bergs also take it rather slow, and I loved both interpretations, at least where that 2nd movement is concerned. The Jerusalems and the Tokyos on Harmonia Mundi provide very similar interpretations of the whole thing, but I think the Tokyos highlight the awesomeness and disruptive character of the 1st and 4th movements much better, on that I think these two recordings also take an edge over the Bergs, Tákacs and the Italianos, these last two in particular failed to grab me


I think that perhaps "slow' isn't the right word. I have a few of the 11+ min crowd on my recommended list (Belcea, Ebene, etc) and I like them a lot. It's more a momentum thing. If I feel momentum is dragging then it let's the performance down, for me. This is what detracted from the Ebene recording a little. They don't rush any movement at all and are superb in all but the 2nd, where I feel they show a certain 'hesitancy'. It's still a fine recording but I would have preferred if they felt like they were playing with more forward motion at that point (they are terrific elsewhere in the quartet). Even though the Belcea are hardly speed merchants there's an insistence in their 2nd movement that is impressive. I agree that the Tokyo HM (its much better than their earlier RCA recording this time around) and the Jerusalem are fine accounts and was very impressed by the Tokyo in particular (both I've strongly recommended). Listening to the Casals recording again today (one of my joint 3 to choices) I've got to say that it's a very special account to my ears that just sweeps you along. I'm not with you on the Itallianos and Takacs though. I think they're both excellent (that Takacs finale is thrilling). Nice to hear some totally different opinions.

PS. This is the list I put up in March on my blog. It's been edited several times since to include/demote/promote recordings. None of my blogs are static. They are constantly being changed as I'm quite open to changing my mind. 😉









Beethoven - String Quartet 1 op.18/1 (SQ review)


The first movement of Beethoven's 1st quartet highlights that Beethoven, even this early, had mastered the classical forms of Mozart and Haydn but was building his own style, using small motifs and other interesting devices to elevate his style from that of his predecessors. If the first...




www.talkclassical.com


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## SearsPoncho

That 2nd movement is remarkable. It's amazing how he fuses pure lyrical beauty with drama and pathos.


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## Mandryka

Someone once said to me that this early quartet is very much in the style of Cherubini. Is that right? Has anyone got any suggestions for Cherubini where the Beethoven influence is really clear?


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## Kreisler jr

I strongly doubt this, the only connection might be between the slow movement and dramatic tropes in Cherubini's operas. But I would not call such allusions to a different genre "in X's style" (and I don't know enough Cherubini to actually make such a connection).

But Cherubini's own instrumental music, certainly the symphony and the string quartets, were all composed long after 1799.


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## HerbertNorman

I listened to the Berg , the Emerson and the Talich yesterday ... My favourite among these was the Berg tbh. 

Today I've got the Hagen and the Belcea lined up... 

There is no doubt that I will listen to the second movement even more closely after reading through the thread and the blog


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## Merl

As someone who really enjoys Cherubini's quartets I agree with Kreisler. Seeing as Cherubini's first quartet was 15 years behind Beethoven and the rest 30 years later the Cherubini 'influence' Mandryka might be hinting at is sometimes cited by those who believe that Cherubini's dynamic motifs in his operas influenced Beethoven. Is that possible? Well yes! Many artists are influenced by their peers. We'll never know. I don't listen to much opera so I can't possibly comment on this but Beethoven was always a huge fan of Cherubini's work and famously went on record as viewing him as "the greatest living composer." Although the musical admiration was mutual (Cherubini called Beethoven a "genius") there are several anecdotes from Czerny and friends of Cherubini attesting to the fact that the Italian wasn't particularly enamoured with Beethoven as a person (the words "brusque" and "rude" were mentioned in correspondences). However as Beethoven aged Cherubini's attitude to him changed and he was a visitor towards the end of Beethoven's life. Strangely if you haven't checked out Cherubini's quartets you should try them. The 1st is a particularly fine, neglected and intriguing work that sounds unlike any other music around at the time (try it). It's heavily influenced by the Paris opera scene of the time (unsurprisingly) and is very dramatic. Interestingly the 3rd quartet and the 3 that followed are all influenced to varying degrees by Beethoven's middle and especially late quartets, which Cherubini loved and studied intensely. The 3rd quartet (a personal favourite and rejected choice by me in this this thread numerous times - I'll pick it one day) is heavily influenced by late Beethoven. If you don't believe me check out the 1st and 3rd movements of the 3rd quartet.


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## HerbertNorman

The way the Hagen Quartet play it , is enjoyable but does have a whole different feel to it than the Belcea. This doesn't mean one is inferior to the other. As @Merl indicates in the thread it seems more like the energy , the momentum is different with the Belceas and I really enjoyed their performance just like I did the Hagens where this seemed different. The 8 mins never felt rushed through I mean.
As the Casals recording was so highly rated I will look up their interpretation on streaming today. This is a recording I have never listened to myself, which is exciting.


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## hammeredklavier

Philidor said:


> this opus would be regarded as the climax of string quartet writing of the 18th century


I really hate to say it, but I think if other composers wrote like this, it would have been dismissed as juvenilia. Succession of ideas (that I feel are a bit "trivial") in sequences repeated 2~4 times, each with a space of 1 bar - cases in point:  youtube.com/watch?v=7-SJGq1KdCQ&t=25m23s , youtube.com/watch?v=7-SJGq1KdCQ&t=13m36s. I think his strengths with use of form, dynamics, rhythm are not yet mature enough in this quartet to outweigh them. Also, regarding harmony, (although his strength lies more in the horizontal than vertical, and I think this member is quite harsh in judgement); 43877/page-7#post-1077033 if I were to view based on this work alone, I would consider the judgement understandable.


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## Enthusiast

^ Somehow I doubt that you "really hate to say it". Greatness in music is surely not identified by whether a piece meets certain predetermined technical criteria. I hear a distinctive and powerful piece. Of course, tastes vary ... but then tastes are far less definitive and even for individuals can often change.


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## Montarsolo

I've only just joined the forum and this week I was introduced to the 'quartet of the week'. What a wonderful initiative!

Listened to the first Beethoven quartet this week with Amadeus Quartet, Leipziger Quartet, Guarnerius Quartet and the Alban Berg Quartet. All good performances. If I had to pick one it would be ABQ. My first complete recording and (apparently) still leading the way.


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## Enthusiast

I spent the late morning listening to four recordings of the work and found myself ranking them although I didn't expect to. Of the four I felt that the Takacs recording was the most special, then the ABQ, then the Borodin and finally the Italiano. Of course, all are excellent and I wouldn't be surprised to order them differently another time. The excellence of three of them is widely advocated but the Borodin Quartet seems to get left out of people's estimations. I'm not sure why.


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## StevehamNY

Enthusiast said:


> The excellence of three of them is widely advocated but the Borodin Quartet seems to get left out of people's estimations. I'm not sure why.


Ah, some love for the Borodins, who I agree are underrated here!

I must confess, though, with much guilt, that I can't help picturing Merl being tied up and made to listen to the 12-minute (!) second movement.


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## Merl

I was thinking, yesterday, about the early quartets. When i used to play through the set I'd always say that the 1st was my favourite of them but over the years the others have further grown in my estimation to the point where I actually prefer 4, 5 and 6 above it. Perhaps it's just an over-familiarity with the 1st quartet. My blog review also seemed to take an inordinately long time from its gestation, years ago, and I put off finishing it on several occasions. It's also caused me more headaches in recommending recordings than any other I've done since the Ravel quartet. Even since I finished it in March, I've edited it more than any other quartet blog I've ever written. Some recordings were on my lists then disappeared, some have worked their way up and some down. Although I'm incredibly fluid with all my blogs (I have to be because of new releases, recent OOP hearings, changes of heart, etc) only one other has undergone so many revisions as that blog. I'm more settled and happy with the Ravel blog now (particularly since throwing in another subsection) but why do I get the feeling that this one is going to be one blog I'm never fully satisfied with? I'm going to have a think about that next week, when life hopefully calms down a little.


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## Kreisler jr

It's often claimed that early Beethoven is not yet really himself, especially in the genres symphony and quartet he apparently approached with caution (compared to works with piano). While this is not totally wrong, very little in this quartet sounds like Mozart, Haydn or another 1790s contemporary, I think. 
Maybe the finale, but certainly not mvmts. 2 and 3. The closest movement to the passionate adagio I can think of is Beethoven's own (maybe even more elaborate and operatic) in op.10/3 (also a work where the slow movements seems a bit too much for the rest) but there are operatically expressive slow movements in Mozart. 
However, the scherzo with its sinister oscillating between major and minor and the trio section not quieting down but more violent than the main section seems totally Beethovenian and without precedent to me. (There is the menuet in Haydn's op.76/2 but this one is still clearly a minuet and far less unruly.)


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## Enthusiast

StevehamNY said:


> Ah, some love for the Borodins, who I agree are underrated here!
> 
> I must confess, though, with much guilt, that I can't help picturing Merl being tied up and made to listen to the 12-minute (!) second movement.


OK, yes, Merl may not like that (I just checked his blog and see the Borodin's account is not included) but the Lindsays and the Belcea are both within a minute of that timing.


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## Enthusiast

Enthusiast said:


> I spent the late morning listening to four recordings of the work and found myself ranking them although I didn't expect to. Of the four I felt that the Takacs recording was the most special, then the ABQ, then the Borodin and finally the Italiano. Of course, all are excellent and I wouldn't be surprised to order them differently another time. The excellence of three of them is widely advocated but the Borodin Quartet seems to get left out of people's estimations. I'm not sure why.


And I listened to four more today (I find it so rewarding to listen to multiple performances of many Beethoven works) - the Artemis, Belcea, Cremona and Jerusalem. I found the first two of these particularly rewarding. So perhaps my top four are the the ABQ, Artemis, Belcea and Takacs recordings. Include the Borodins if you want my top 5!

I have really enjoyed spending a lot of time with this quartet even though I knew it well before we started. As others have noted it is the first two movements that are particularly powerful but the remaining movements round the piece off nicely and there is no sense of imbalance. The work is a very convincing whole. And I also agree that this is pure Beethoven, early though it may be, that could never be mistaken for Mozart or Haydn.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> OK, yes, Merl may not like that (I just checked his blog and see the Borodin's account is not included) but the Lindsays and the Belcea are both within a minute of that timing.


I just checked on the Borodin recording. It's a perfectly good, recommendable account, to me, and I liked it but I only listed those that I "well recommended" (particularly stood out) or it would have been an enormous review. Tbh, I recall there were a huge quantity of 'recommendable' ones and you have to draw the line somewhere I've certainlly nowt against the Borodins and they feature more in my later quartet round-ups. I've just looked at my original notes and the words "excellent 1st mov theme - other rec" were written next to it so I probably felt it was not special enough outside of the first movement, to my ears, to scrape into my lists. Doesn't mean it's no good, just that others (I felt) were better. I have the Borodin set and as a very general comment I tended to prefer them in many middle and later quartets to their op.18 recordings but there's nothing wrong with their op.18s. As I said earlier, that review caused me more stress than any other I've done due to the quality and quantity of the available versions.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> I just checked on the Borodin recording. It's a perfectly good, recommendable account, to me, and I liked it but I only listed those that I "well recommended" (particularly stood out) or it would have been an enormous review. Tbh, I recall there were a huge quantity of 'recommendable' ones and you have to draw the line somewhere I've certainlly nowt against the Borodins and they feature more in my later quartet round-ups. I've just looked at my original notes and the words "excellent 1st mov theme - other rec" were written next to it so I probably felt it was not special enough outside of the first movement, to my ears, to scrape into my lists. Doesn't mean it's no good, just that others (I felt) were better. I have the Borodin set and as a very general comment I tended to prefer them in many middle and later quartets to their op.18 recordings but there's nothing wrong with their op.18s. As I said earlier, that review caused me more stress than any other I've done due to the quality and quantity of the available versions.


Thanks, Merl. Evidently I liked it a lot more than you! But, as above, I can kind of hear that it may not be a typical Merl performance.


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## Malx

This week I have just been quietly listening away to all the recordings I have of this well known example of, 'juvenalia' sic, that I have on my shelves. The Op 18 quartets may not have the depth, or the feeling of pushing the boundaries of form of the late quartets, but they are nonetheless more than worthy of time and attention.

Of the quartets I listened too none were less than very good, well maybe the Vegh recording from the '50's might struggle to meet that description, and a few stood out, but truth be told if I was left with just a couple in the collection any would suffice.

I listened to, in no particular order:
Vegh (1950's), Hungarian - both mono.
Alexander (first set), Tokyo (HM), Alban Berg (EMI studio), Gewandhaus, Belcea, Suske, Artemis, Ebene, Takacs, Casals.
Plus just for variety (!) I streamed the Chiaroscuro.

A very enjoyable week listening to super music - more power to this thread 💪.

Edited to add - I had forgotten about the Vermeer Quartet recording I have - I will give it a spin tomorrow.


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## Enthusiast

Malx said:


> This week I have just been quietly listening away to all the recordings I have of this well known example of, 'juvenalia' sic, that I have on my shelves. The Op 18 quartets may not have the depth, or the feeling of pushing the boundaries of form of the late quartets, but they are nonetheless more than worthy of time and attention.
> 
> Of the quartets I listened too none were less than very good, well maybe the Vegh recording from the '50's might struggle to meet that description, and a few stood out, but truth be told if I was left with just a couple in the collection any would suffice.
> 
> I listened to, in no particular order:
> Vegh (1950's), Hungarian - both mono.
> Alexander (first set), Tokyo (HM), Alban Berg (EMI studio), Gewandhaus, Belcea, Suske, Artemis, Ebene, Takacs, Casals.
> Plus just for variety (!) I streamed the Chiaroscuro.
> 
> A very enjoyable week listening to super music - more power to this thread 💪.
> 
> Edited to add - I had forgotten about the Vermeer Quartet recording I have - I will give it a spin tomorrow.


I don't think I have ever heard those Vegh recordings. I wonder how they compare with the later (and critically highly praised) recordings?


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> I don't think I have ever heard those Vegh recordings. I wonder how they compare with the later (and critically highly praised) recordings?


Generally speaking - less vibrato (yay) , a lot more Portamento (ugh) , thin-sounding violins (nooo) , moderate paced and a little humourless for me. The set sounds quite dated and the sound is pretty rough, tbh. It ha its charms in that it's not too sentimental but that sound is not nice and personally I'd put it with the Pascals as one of the poorer sets I own. Others may feel differently.


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post but I wanted to have a quick rant. I think there's always been major problems with the Borodin set in regard marketing. It's always been really expensive so few people have it and now it's older they should have dropped the price by at least 30%-40% to shift it but they have always kept it at full whack. Last time I looked on the Chandos site they still wanted £30 (CD or download) for this close-on-20 year old cycle, Presto wanted £30 for a flac download (and 25% more for the CDs) and Amazon wanted £40. Not good marketing! If you wanna shift units on an older quartet cycle you need to drop the price. Price is important. Why buy the Borodins on Chandos when you can buy the Artemis, Endellion, Belcea and a few other better recorded and packaged sets for between £20 and £25 if you shop around. You'd even have enough left to get the ABQ cycle (I saw it listed new for a ridiculous £5 last week but its often well under a tenner). Malx and I both picked up the brand new Ebene cycle for a mere £14 on CD in an Amazon flash sale (thanks again for the spot, Malx)! Chandos' old-fashioned, stuffy packaging and ridiculous pricing have priced this set right outta the market and as a result it's not been heard by many people and never sold as it should have. No fault with the Borodins. They did their bit. Chandos need to do theirs'! The blame is squarely on the company. Greedy idiots!


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## Kreisler jr

I wasn't even aware of a complete Borodin Q. Beethoven cycle on Chandos...so there is certainly some lack of "marketing".
I only got through 4 recordings so far, hope to do another bunch on the weekend. The last one I listened to was Hagen/DG, probably one of my favorites. Remarkable is that despite being one of the fastest in the 2nd movement (8'20, only Casals and Smithson are faster among the ones I have) they play most of it so quiet and restrained that it doesn't feel "fast" at all; maybe the passionate outbursts later on could be a bit more violent but overall it's very atmospheric, I think.


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## Malx

Merl said:


> Apologies for the double post but I wanted to have a quick rant. I think there's always been major problems with the Borodin set in regard marketing. It's always been really expensive so few people have it and now it's older they should have dropped the price by at least 30%-40% to shift it but they have always kept it at full whack. Last time I looked on the Chandos site they still wanted £30 (CD or download) for this close-on-20 year old cycle, Presto wanted £30 for a flac download (and 25% more for the CDs) and Amazon wanted £40. Not good marketing! If you wanna shift units on an older quartet cycle you need to drop the price. Price is important. Why buy the Borodins on Chandos when you can buy the Artemis, Endellion, Belcea and a few other better recorded and packaged sets for between £20 and £25 if you shop around. You'd even have enough left to get the ABQ cycle (I saw it listed new for a ridiculous £5 last week but its often well under a tenner). Malx and I both picked up the brand new Ebene cycle for a mere £14 on CD in an Amazon flash sale (thanks again for the spot, Malx)! Chandos' old-fashioned, stuffy packaging and ridiculous pricing have priced this set right outta the market and as a result it's not been heard by many people and never sold as it should have. No fault with the Borodins. They did their bit. Chandos need to do theirs'! The blame is squarely on the company. Greedy idiots!


A couple of the individual discs and a three disc set of the Op 18 quartets are available direct from Chandos under the 'Sale CDS' heading then look under 'deleted' then 'string quartets' not easy to spot but here is the link if anyone is interested:

Chandos Records

Discs are £2.50 each plus postage.


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## SearsPoncho

I really need to revisit the Alban Berg Quartet's Beethoven. I bought single disc recordings of the late quartets a couple decades ago on the super-budget EMI Red Line label ($3/disc). I found these recordings to be thin, weak, disinterested and uninspired, with a limited dynamic range. However, everyone seems to praise the ABQ's Beethoven for being the exact opposite: thick, meaty, aggressive, and fully engaged, which is exactly what I like. The entire set is cheap and the reviews are universally positive; I must be missing something. I'll try them again.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I may not comment very extensively on this thread going forward due to time/commitment conflicts, but I'll just pop in and say that I had a lovely time listening to this early Beethoven quartet. For me, there is no question that this is standout work among Classical period chamber music that distinguishes itself from its contemporaries in many ways. The accomplished counterpoint, extensive development of ideas, big emotional outpourings, and breadth of the work all show enticing signs of the Beethoven that was to come. I especially enjoyed the long second movement with its endless melodic invention and sheer graceful beauty, and the jovial energy of the finale with bursts of Haydnesque humor. I wish I had the time to compare multiple versions, as I love listening to different recordings of Beethoven's quartets. For now I heard the Gewandhaus and Casals, and I think I prefer the latter for their slightly richer tone, snappier tempi, and smiling wit; although the Gewandhaus had plenty of nice touches as well. 

Next week's choice goes to *allaroundmusicenthusiast.*

allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267



Montarsolo said:


> I've only just joined the forum and this week I was introduced to the 'quartet of the week'. What a wonderful initiative!
> 
> Listened to the first Beethoven quartet this week with Amadeus Quartet, Leipziger Quartet, Guarnerius Quartet and the Alban Berg Quartet. All good performances. If I had to pick one it would be ABQ. My first complete recording and (apparently) still leading the way.


Welcome! Let me know if you'd like to choose a quartet and be added to the list of nominators.


----------



## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> Apologies for the double post but I wanted to have a quick rant. I think there's always been major problems with the Borodin set in regard marketing. It's always been really expensive so few people have it and now it's older they should have dropped the price by at least 30%-40% to shift it but they have always kept it at full whack. Last time I looked on the Chandos site they still wanted £30 (CD or download) for this close-on-20 year old cycle, Presto wanted £30 for a flac download (and 25% more for the CDs) and Amazon wanted £40. Not good marketing! If you wanna shift units on an older quartet cycle you need to drop the price. Price is important. Why buy the Borodins on Chandos when you can buy the Artemis, Endellion, Belcea and a few other better recorded and packaged sets for between £20 and £25 if you shop around. You'd even have enough left to get the ABQ cycle (I saw it listed new for a ridiculous £5 last week but its often well under a tenner). Malx and I both picked up the brand new Ebene cycle for a mere £14 on CD in an Amazon flash sale (thanks again for the spot, Malx)! Chandos' old-fashioned, stuffy packaging and ridiculous pricing have priced this set right outta the market and as a result it's not been heard by many people and never sold as it should have. No fault with the Borodins. They did their bit. Chandos need to do theirs'! The blame is squarely on the company. Greedy idiots!


I only got the download. I can't remember what I paid - on the Chandos site, I think - but it was reduced and very cheap (less than £10) - one of their one day (or one hour) offers but a lot more than a 50% reduction, I think (perhaps they made a mistake - they quite often do).


----------



## Carmina Banana

It is exciting to hear this quartet. Though technically not the first quartet, it embodies for me the ambition of this composer who recently arrived in Vienna and wanted to make a name for himself. The first movement strikes me as eager and extremely deft. The theme itself is a mere fragment. It could almost be a demonstration of how a great composer can make a piece out of almost nothing (the opening of the fifth symphony is, I suppose, a classic example of this feat). Into the exposition of this extremely terse movement, he includes some worrying moments involving a possible minor dominant, a slightly disorienting accent on the second beat of a measure, a series of tense chords that slow everything down and some athletic sixteenth passages that speed everything up. It is like my wife packing up our hatchback for a trip. How did she get all of that in there?

The second movement, by contrast, is an expansive cantabile movement, full of great lyricism but also drama. His predilection for these long-winded slow movements tried my patience as a young piano student. Now I am more apt to revel in them. 

The typically short scherzo movement and last movement—a rollicking ride that seems to be over before it begins, might make one question whether the slow movement over balances the short movements surrounding it. I don’t know how important that really is. I am not sure we need our movements nicely evened out like our flower arrangement on the mantel. I might contend when it comes to later Beethoven especially that it was more about challenging that notion that balance can exist. 

I haven’t done an exhaustive survey of recordings (though I have enjoyed hearing about recordings people like and then sampling them), but I do have an observation to make: the recordings available to us sometimes seem to fit a spectrum; on one side are the generally more current, more thoughtful and scholarly recordings often by younger groups. On the other side are the old school groups which usually consist of men who have a lit cigar and brandy snifter within reach and don’t really discuss the music as much as embody a tradition that was passed on to them by the great masters before them. 

Two of my more enjoyable listens involved groups on both side of this spectrum. Though I don’t think they are a young group by any means, the Emersons recording appealed to my intellect and my sense of forward momentum. The above mentioned terseness was fully realized. 

By contrast, the Borodins (I was inspired the recent talk about them) was firmly in the cigar and brandy camp and I loved every vibrato soaked note (parts of the slow movement reminded me of the later recordings of Callas). The quirky eagerness of the first movement was greatly diminished by their romantic approach—they roll some details into the bigger picture and make everything more noble and dignified. The chords in the slow movement when they linger just a bit longer than most. That yanked tears. 

One more highlight of my listening was the takacs scherzo movement. They really hit those accents and make the whole movement come alive. It reminds me of one of my favorite conductors telling us, you know those accents the composer wrote? Let’s actually do them. 

That’s all I got. I know saying I like Beethoven is like saying I like sunshine. Or oxygen. But I really like Beethoven.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Next week's choice goes to *allaroundmusicenthusiast.*


Thank you, ACB! I know that Beethoven's day isn't over yet, but I had some time now, so I'm presenting my choice for the week right this moment. For this week I'm taking you back to something modern. While I'm not one to care too much for this kind of stuff, I do feel that there's a lack of female participation in our selections, so I decided that this week will be devoted, for all those who wish to participate, to Gloria Coates 9th String Quartet. A work that's barely 15 years old, and that I've honestly only listened to once a few months ago, but that I thought was something special. Gloria was born in the US, but has been living since the '70s, I think, in Germany.
There's only one official recording on Naxos by the Kreutzer Quartet, but perhaps there's a performance on YT by some other group.
I hope you enjoy it!


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## Philidor

SQ No. 9 from Gloria Coates just streamed in and I was convinced from the very first bar.

I knew SQs No. 1 to 7 from Gloria Coates, and I had a special favour for No. 7 (with organ), but this one will join the club of favourites. Of course her preference for glissandi can be encountered.

I hope allaroundmusicenthusiast will forgive me if I suspect that this quartet might not reach the Himalaya heights of Rihm, Ferneyhough, Birtwistle and others, but I think that Ms. Coates was not striving for landscapes that are reachable only for some dozens of people. And I admit wholeheartedly that there are wonderful mountains in the Andes. Love it.


allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> that I thought was something special


Definitively. Thank you for choosing!


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## Merl

Know the name but the piece is new to me and will try wednesday when things aren't as crap.


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## HerbertNorman

@allaroundmusicenthusiast , a most enthralling piece of music I must say ...
I really enjoyed the Beethoven week , ... I had to get myself ready for this modern piece after that.
It is new to me too , which is always motivating! The atmosphere she creates here with the glissandi , pizzicato,... is compelling to say the least. It's one I wouldn't mind to see played live tbh...


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## sbmonty

Beethoven's Op. 18/1 was a great pick. I've been listening to the rest of the 6 this past week as well. Streaming Gloria Coates' String Quartet No. 9 as I post. Liking it so far! 
Thanks for another interesting choice.


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## Kreisler jr

One last report of listening to op. 18/1. Of my collection I left out Busch, Juilliard, Melos, Petersen and maybe another one I forgot about. 
The oldest two I listened to were Budapest/CBS 1940s and Hungarian/EMI ca. 1966. I found both of these a bit disappointing. Both, especially Budapest were fastish, homogeneous and efficient for their time but in these respects they are trumped by many more modern more virtuosic and better sounding recordings, and their more subtle virtues seemed to escape my notice. 
The somewhat later (ca. 1970) Vegh Qt. is an entirely different affair. They use their slightly slower tempi (not extreme, 9:30 and 9:40 for the first two movements) for wonderful "loving" attention to details and contrasts, that they ended up among my favorites. Next, the Musikverein/Platz, great sound, except for too much reverb, very good mainstream but not very distinguished interpretation, best probably in the scherzo. The two HIP (Turner and Smithsonian) and the two most recent (Hagen/DG and Casals/hm) are quite similar, basically about a minute each faster in the first two movements than the older recordings above. The most efficient is the Smithsonian, a bit lacking in contrast, although the very sound is more different from modern instruments than that of the Turner quartet who seem to give more attention to details and contrasts. However, in making the music special I think both are surpassed by the Hagen (of which I mentioned the wonderful slow movement above) and Casals who might have even sharper contrasts overall than the Hagen (although I found them a bit too fast at times).


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## StevehamNY

I think I've expressed a similar sentiment before, but where else could you change gears so abruptly between two different pieces of music? But instead of getting whiplash, I'm _really _liking this week's selection! I've never heard of the composer before, but the steady, pulsing throughline actually brings to mind some of my favorite Polish quartets (e.g. Bargielski and Nowak).

Thank you for the great choice, AAME!


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## starthrower

I wasn't in the mood for this Coates quartet yesterday but today it is sounding gloriously eerie and doomy. It has a soothing effect as well. Excellent recording too!


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## StevehamNY

"[F]or those interested in powerful, original experimentation in _music _- not just sound - that, for all its initial outlandishness, still looks back to Beethoven, Bach and indeed beyond, the works of Gloria Coates are indispensable. As Kreutzer violinist Peter Sheppard Skærved says in his note on Coates's music: 'Once the floodgates are open, its extraordinary beauty is irresistible.'"

This come from an insightful (and very positive) Musicweb review, and it makes me want to seek out more of this composer's music!


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## Mandryka

This comment about "looking back to Beethoven" is interesting. Is it just me who thinks that the first movement uses a melody from the theme of op 133?


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## Malx

Maybe its just because I've been listening to more orchestral/vocal music the last couple of of weeks but I am not getting anything from this at all - all I am hearing is a drone which I am having difficulty concentrating on and listening through to any inner development. 
I usually get frustrated when I can't hear what others are hearing and try to make a connection but this week I am enjoying other music and am inclined to stick with that - sorry AAME but you never know I might try later in the week when my mindset is different and it may click.


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## Enthusiast

I tried it yesterday and must confess to finding it irritating. It put my teeth on edge. Perhaps it will work better for me on my second listen.


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## HerbertNorman

Malx said:


> Maybe its just because I've been listening to more orchestral/vocal music the last couple of of weeks but I am not getting anything from this at all - all I am hearing is a drone which I am having difficulty concentrating on and listening through to any inner development.
> I usually get frustrated when I can't hear what others are hearing and try to make a connection but this week I am enjoying other music and am inclined to stick with that - sorry AAME but you never know I might try later in the week when my mindset is different and it may click.


I understand your feelings @Malx , like I indicated in the thread I really had to get out of the Beethoven vibe! It is a tough one to grasp for me too , but I had a day of listening to nothing and then decided to give the new SQ a go. It does grip you , but you need to be able to concentrate like you say.


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## sbmonty

Intriguing work. I really enjoyed it. Some very unusual bowing techniques, not that I know much about that. It would be fun to watch live, I agree. 
Nice selection!


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## Merl

Like a few others here, I didn't like this one, at all. Still interesting to hear something new to me but I can safely say that I won't be revisiting it any time soon. Sorry AAME.


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## SearsPoncho

So, no one else hears the opening "overtura" from Beethoven's Grosse Fuge throughout the 1st two movements? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Once I heard it, I'm sure incorrectly, it's all I could hear for the 1st two movements. There are a limited number of intervals and I'm sure I must have heard something which reminded me of the opening to the Grosse Fuge. A confluence of pure accident (or coincidence) and psychology. 

Third movement: Was that a police siren? They finally got me! Well, I will be away next week, but you can pretend I'm in jail because they wouldn't believe my one-armed man story. I heard some other interesting things in the final movement, including the Dies Irae. 

Final verdict: I don't know. I can't even say it was different because it sounds like it could have been composed at least 50 years ago, and possibly 100 years ago. That's not a "diss"; I don't believe a work has to break ground or represent a new voice to be great, I'm just not really sure what I got out of it. I've heard somewhat similar stuff which was better. 

*Please keep in mind that these are my reactions after one listen. *It may well become my favorite piece of all time, but these are my preliminary bumbling thoughts.


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## starthrower

She's written a lot of music. But I've heard only a few pieces so I have no idea how the 9th quartet compares to her other compositions? I gave a listen to her first two symphonies earlier today and I like what I heard. I appreciated hearing something that didn't sound like a traditional classical quartet. And I enjoyed the sonic architecture of the piece. I didn't recognize the Beethoven reference because I don't know the Grosse Fuge very well. As far something that could have been written over 50 years ago? The name Penderecki came to mind while listening to this piece. I'm interested enough to keep exploring and listening to more of her music.


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## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> So, no one else hears the opening "overtura" from Beethoven's Grosse Fuge throughout the 1st two movements? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Once I heard it, I'm sure incorrectly, it's all I could hear for the 1st two movements. There are a limited number of intervals and I'm sure I must have heard something which reminded me of the opening to the Grosse Fuge. A confluence of pure accident (or coincidence) and psychology.
> 
> Third movement: Was that a police siren? They finally got me! Well, I will be away next week, but you can pretend I'm in jail because they wouldn't believe my one-armed man story. I heard some other interesting things in the final movement, including the Dies Irae.
> 
> Final verdict: I don't know. I can't even say it was different because it sounds like it could have been composed at least 50 years ago, and possibly 100 years ago. That's not a "diss"; I don't believe a work has to break ground or represent a new voice to be great, I'm just not really sure what I got out of it. I've heard somewhat similar stuff which was better.
> 
> *Please keep in mind that these are my reactions after one listen. *It may well become my favorite piece of all time, but these are my preliminary bumbling thoughts.


The grosse fugue is obvious. Who cares? I mean, so what! The music doesn’t say anything about the Grosse Fugue does it? It just uses a tune from it.


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## SearsPoncho

Mandryka said:


> The grosse fugue is obvious. Who cares? I mean, so what! The music doesn’t say anything about the Grosse Fugue does it? It just uses a tune from it.


It's just an observation, such as this...


Mandryka said:


> This comment about "looking back to Beethoven" is interesting. Is it just me who thinks that the first movement uses a melody from the theme of op 133?


----------



## Mandryka

SearsPoncho said:


> It's just an observation, such as this...
> 
> 
> Kind of ironic that you would make that comment, in light of your "[w]ho cares?" comment. No one here criticized you for doing the same thing. Furthermore, you actually asked if anyone else heard it. In addition, the previous statement about looking back to Beethoven makes it relevant.
> 
> I must add one more thing: This is not one of THOSE threads. A long time ago, many, if not all of us, agreed that any comments on the music were welcome, including "I like," "it reminds me of this," or whatever comments a member wanted to articulate. No inferiority complex is allowed, and deep, profound form and analysis dissertations are not necessary, unless one desires to go down that path. This is a Music Lover's thread, and such derogatory comments as yours are not welcome. Believe me, you do not want me or others to criticize your comments with a sharp-tooth comb. As you can see from the above perusal of your recent comments, you would not fare so well.
> 
> This is a place where we respect the opinions of other members. But...you asked for it, and as we can clearly see, your statements don't stand up to primary level scrutiny. Sorry, but you brought this upon yourself (and I'm not even mentioning your frequent hard-edged, derogatory posts which criticize other members - believe me, we notice).
> 
> This is a music lover's thread. If you're not willing to be respectful to other people's comments (which, in this case, actually are similar to yours, but with more specificity), than this is not the thread for you.


Well you sound upset, which wasn't my intention at all. I meant it as a genuine question, not as a sort of rhetorical dismissive flourish. I mean, yes, there's a quotation from Beethoven, rather insistently repeated, but what does it matter? Maybe I should have said _why care? _I want to open the debate, not close it.

Let me give you an example. The opening of the St Matthew Passion uses a melody which Bach took from Marais -- the Tombeau de Mr Meliton. But it's not really revealing anything interesting about the music - either Marais' or Bach's - to note that, at least as far as I can see. There's no real interesting Bach/Marais link here is there? He just took a tune. End of. It doesn't matter. Why care? Again, maybe I'm missing something. As with Coats/Beethoven I would like to open an area for discussion, not close it.

And what I guess I'm saying is, it's similar for this quartet. Yes she took a tune from Beethoven. But . . .

Does she have something to say about late Beethoven in the 21st century?

(By the way, the reason I asked if anyone else can hear it is that I could find no references to it on the web! So I just didn't trust my ears. Maybe someone with a better ear will prove us both wrong.)

So if you're annoyed, I'm sorry about that, and probably I could have turned a better phrase. But I hope you'll see now what I was trying to say.


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## SearsPoncho

Mandryka,

My mistake. I apologize for misinterpreting your comments.. One of the problems with the internet and texting is that one does not hear tone of voice, and context is often lost. I look forward to your future comments with the realization that some posts get lost in translation or misinterpreted over the interwebs. We're cool.

By the way, I deleted the criticism.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I'll see if I can listen to this tomorrow, but for now just wanted to pop in for a reminder that *HerbertNorman *will make our next pick.


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## HerbertNorman

Well after listening to the modern , 9th string quartet of Gloria Coates I felt glad I had gotten to know a new piece. I will be adding it to my collection!
The atmosphere created by Coates in this work was thrilling and intense , which I really only got into after a few listens. 
As I have said recently I enjoy the choice of pieces to fluctuate between the new , the unknown (to me at least) and the pieces that are quite well known to us as
String Quartet listeners/lovers. I will be nominating a piece that has a special place in my heart . It was the first string quartet by this composer that I ever listened to,
and it really left me in awe from the first time I listened to it. It is a powerfull piece , written just after the second World War. I am talking about the Third string quartet , op. 73 in F major by Dmitri Shostakovich . I have seen it hasn't been
discussed in the thread and I couldn't find it in @Merl 's blog yet. I am looking forward to the feedback on the thread here by you fellow music lovers. There are a lot of recordings , by
the Artemis , Belcea , Jerusalem, Borodin , ... String Quartets . I treasure the recording I have by the Beethoven Quartet . It has 5 parts , which were initially given titles by the composer.
https://www.earsense.org/article/Shostakovich-String-Quartet-No-3-Op-73/ is a nice review / analysis to read.
I hope you enjoy the listening


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## Art Rock

HerbertNorman said:


> I am talking about the Third string quartet , op. 73 in F major by Dmitri Shostakovich . I have seen it hasn't been discussed in the thread and I couldn't find it in @Merl 's blog yet.











Shostakovich - String Quartet 3 op.73 (SQ review)


The 3rd String Quartet (in F major, Op. 73) was composed just after World War 2 and after his 9th symphony. Shostakovich originally explained that it reflected the hardships of life in the Soviet Union during the war years. It was composed in a period of huge nervousness and volatility and he...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Montarsolo

Great choice 👍🏻


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## Merl

HerbertNorman said:


> Well after listening to the modern , 9th string quartet of Gloria Coates I felt glad I had gotten to know a new piece. I will be adding it to my collection!
> The atmosphere created by Coates in this work was thrilling and intense , which I really only got into after a few listens.
> As I have said recently I enjoy the choice of pieces to fluctuate between the new , the unknown (to me at least) and the pieces that are quite well known to us as
> String Quartet listeners/lovers. I will be nominating a piece that has a special place in my heart . It was the first string quartet by this composer that I ever listened to,
> and it really left me in awe from the first time I listened to it. It is a powerfull piece , written just after the second World War. I am talking about the Third string quartet , op. 73 in F major by Dmitri Shostakovich . I have seen it hasn't been
> discussed in the thread and I couldn't find it in @Merl 's blog yet. I am looking forward to the feedback on the thread here by you fellow music lovers. There are a lot of recordings , by
> the Artemis , Belcea , Jerusalem, Borodin , ... String Quartets . I treasure the recording I have by the Beethoven Quartet . It has 5 parts , which were initially given titles by the composer.
> https://www.earsense.org/article/Shostakovich-String-Quartet-No-3-Op-73/ is a nice review / analysis to read.
> I hope you enjoy the listening


Lo, I just finished reviewing it the other day, Herbie, and blogged it. However I've just gotten hold of a pair of recordings that I didn't have access to before so it's likely to change.


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## Malx

Would you like to share tonights Lotto numbers Merl - you appear to be 'Mystic Merl' this week.


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## Malx

HerbertNorman said:


> Well after listening to the modern , 9th string quartet of Gloria Coates I felt glad I had gotten to know a new piece. I will be adding it to my collection!
> The atmosphere created by Coates in this work was thrilling and intense , which I really only got into after a few listens.
> As I have said recently I enjoy the choice of pieces to fluctuate between the new , the unknown (to me at least) and the pieces that are quite well known to us as
> String Quartet listeners/lovers. I will be nominating a piece that has a special place in my heart . It was the first string quartet by this composer that I ever listened to,
> and it really left me in awe from the first time I listened to it. It is a powerfull piece , written just after the second World War. I am talking about the Third string quartet , op. 73 in F major by Dmitri Shostakovich . I have seen it hasn't been
> discussed in the thread and I couldn't find it in @Merl 's blog yet. I am looking forward to the feedback on the thread here by you fellow music lovers. There are a lot of recordings , by
> the Artemis , Belcea , Jerusalem, Borodin , ... String Quartets . I treasure the recording I have by the Beethoven Quartet . It has 5 parts , which were initially given titles by the composer.
> https://www.earsense.org/article/Shostakovich-String-Quartet-No-3-Op-73/ is a nice review / analysis to read.
> I hope you enjoy the listening


Nice selection HN - I had intended listening to a couple of recordings of this quartet I don't own after a chat with Merl so those added to the three I already have will make for good listening.


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## HerbertNorman

Merl said:


> Lo, I just finished reviewing it the other day, Herbie, and blogged it. However I've just gotten hold of a pair of recordings that I didn't have access to before so it's likely to change.


Isn't that just typical , lol... I look forward to reading it...


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## maestro267

I enjoyed the Coates 9th Quartet. Fascinating techniques employed, particularly the lengthy (very) slow glissandi starting at opposite ends of the scale and passing each other in the middle.


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## HenryPenfold

allaroundmusicenthusiast said:


> Thank you, ACB! I know that Beethoven's day isn't over yet, but I had some time now, so I'm presenting my choice for the week right this moment. For this week I'm taking you back to something modern. While I'm not one to care too much for this kind of stuff, I do feel that there's a lack of female participation in our selections, so I decided that this week will be devoted, for all those who wish to participate, to Gloria Coates 9th String Quartet. A work that's barely 15 years old, and that I've honestly only listened to once a few months ago, but that I thought was something special. Gloria was born in the US, but has been living since the '70s, I think, in Germany.
> There's only one official recording on Naxos by the Kreutzer Quartet, but perhaps there's a performance on YT by some other group.
> I hope you enjoy it!


Great choice - many thanks!


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## HenryPenfold

I've enjoyed Gloria Coates' music for many years and her 9th string quartet is near the top of her best opuses!

What I love about this quartet is how it is at once an otherworldly mind-bending experience _in the now_, and also a _journey_ - the two movements act as an intro and an outro with an emotional centre being the visceral superstructure that sits above the whole piece.

It also has so many off the wall techniques that in other hands would feel gratuitous - she manages to incorporate glissandi. box-tapping and drones, all cliches, in a totally un-cliched manner!

A top listening experience and an excellent choice. I'm saddened that more people can't join in with this amazing musical experience - perhaps the thread name should lose the 'music-lover perspective' bit and replace it with 'Just a narrow perspective'.......... just sayin'


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## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> It also has so many off the wall techniques that in other hands would feel gratuitous - she manages to incorporate glissandi. box-tapping and drones, all cliches, in a totally un-cliched manner!


Henry I,for one, am delighted that you can hear this music in the manner you do - I have tried and cannot. 
I will always continue to listen to others insights and observations especially were greater knowledge of the technicalities of the music is at play and try and hear what they hear but my ears are my ears and I can only hear what I hear and draw my own conclusions.
I do feel that the last section of your post really didn't need to said - just sayin'


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Henry I,for one, am delighted that you can hear this music in the manner you do - I have tried and cannot.
> I will always continue to listen to others insights and observations especially were greater knowledge of the technicalities of the music is at play and try and hear what they hear but my ears are my ears and I can only hear what I hear and draw my own conclusions.
> I do feel that the last section of your post really didn't need to said - just sayin'


Malx

We all hear and see what we want to hear and see, I have no quarrel with that - that's not my point.

My point is that this is the self proclaimed '_best thread on the forum_' (often proclaimed, and by more than one person) and the perspective of a _humble music lover_, yet the moment the Beethoven or Haydn isn't on the agenda, people walk away and in my opinion, can't be a.rsed.

As a passionate music-lover with an open ear, I'm often offended by the attitude on this thread. I shouldn't be, I know, but I can get ignorance anywhere, I don't expect it on a place like this.

You are right that the last section of my post really didn't need to be said - it's bleedin' obvious.

_pax tecum_

Henry

*Edit:* Malx, nothing I said was meant on a personal level and I do hope you or anyone else weren't offended. If you were, you have my apology


----------



## Carmina Banana

Hoping to get under the wire and share my quick reaction to the Gloria Coates. 

Sometimes it takes time to get into a composer’s sound world. I will have to explore her work further to really get to that point. Hearing microtones thrown around when you are not expecting them can be reminiscent of attending your daughter’s middle school orchestra concerts. By the end of the piece, however, I was enjoying the clashes of those intervals and was starting to accept that as part of the composer’s language (this reminds me of being on a panel once judging some students and a very astute member said, “I don’t know this piece, but it sounds sloppy and unprepared.” The other member said, “I do know this piece and that is exactly what it should sound like.”). 

Overall, this strikes me as a bold and original piece. To a degree, this is what composers should strive for. A new composition should make you sit up straight in your chair and say, “what is this all about? Why are they doing this?” Why is there an extremely long glissando in the middle of the piece? I don’t know but I am eager to find out. You have my attention.

Mandryka brought up some interesting points. I will say I do hear the Beethoven GF theme—or should I say subject—or should I actually say countersubject—in this quartet but when I hear that Beethoven tune, I also think of Bach because it is very characteristic of him as well. But, yes, what does that mean? I guess we should first ask what does it mean that Beethoven was sometimes quoting or near quoting Bach in his late quartets. I have read scholarly works on late Beethoven in which they make these connections between Beethoven and Bach but once making their case, they conclude without proposing any theories about why. Likewise, I have read that Gloria Coates was influenced by Beethoven and Bach. OK. So if you like a composer you just insert their music into yours? 

I guess one explanation might reside in the power of transformation. To take a theme, an idea, etc. from one place and put it into a whole new context, to add a completely different perspective to music that has taken root in, let’s say, the 19th century, can be liberating and allow us to acknowledge that there are always meta levels of meaning to everything. I am probably getting dangerously close to deconstruction, but to take this a little further, the tune in question—not literally quoted but close enough for many of us to recognize—is not the main subject, but rather the countersubject so you could say that Coates is taking a less important aspect of a piece and making it a much more important element of a piece, BUT: Beethoven did the same thing by featuring this tune, by itself, just before the fugue itself starts and then having this countersubject present alongside the subject from the outset. Was Beethoven deconstructing Beethoven as well?


----------



## Art Rock

Current Listening Vol VIII [2022]







www.talkclassical.com


----------



## Merl

Herbie, great choice in the greatest thread on TC and anywhere on the Internet... Ever! 

Love Shosty


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Herbie, great choice in the greatest thread on TC and anywhere on the Internet... Ever!
> 
> Love Shosty


Don't get me wrong, this forum is my favourite non-porn site on the whole of the internet, I just expect a little more open-mindedness


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Don't get me wrong, this forum is my favourite non-porn site on the whole of the internet, I just expect a little more open-mindedness


Well bugger off somewhere else, you grumpy old perv! 😜

Love Ludwig and Joe


----------



## Malx

HenryPenfold said:


> I just expect a little more open-mindedness


I get where you are coming from Henry but I believe open-mindedness_ is_ exhibited to high degree within the thread.

I reckon everyone will try every work put forward at least once if not more often. If they do step back from further comment could it not be that they don't wish their dislike of the piece to detract from those involved in comment and discusion who are enjoying it - by opting out they are giving consideration to others in the thread - just a thought.

Any way thats my last utterance - lets get back to listening to the wonderful music we all love


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

The Coates is definitely one of those pieces that requires a fair supply of patience and perseverance during one's engagement with it; but like a Bruckner symphony or one of Messiaen's epic organ or piano cycles, there are riches to be unlocked by focusing on the meticulous patterns of the sonic architecture (this piece isn't as long as those comparisons, of course, but I think one needs a similar listening mentality). Despite the wildly colorful and creative sounds sprinkled throughout, some of which sounded totally new even compared to the other contemporary quartets we've done (the percussion at the start of the second movement was especially novel), there is a very archaic aura about this work to my ears as Coates slowly unravels her striking ideas. Much of the first movement is structured around a reverent hymn-like motif that runs through endless cycles of variation, and the second movement has a haunting, primal mood like an ancient tribal chant. As ever, it's hard to codify my perceptions into words, but suffice it to say that Ms. Coates has definitely piqued my interest with her intrepid voice here. 

Looking forward to the Shostakovich, who hasn't come up in a while here. I consider his quartet cycle to be one of the most outstanding bodies of work in the 20th century, forming an astounding narrative as a whole. I've found the 3rd to be a bit tough to crack, but there is undoubtedly much genius in it. Here's the typically excellent write-up from the unofficial website for Shosty quartets.


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## SearsPoncho

Henry,

This IS the best thread on the internet!  I think you'll find positive comments, or at least interest in some of our more challenging selections. Many members have liked some of the most "difficult" works ever composed, and we did so after only one or two spins. At least we're listening to the music and giving it a chance, or at least attempting to do so. I don't believe that what you perceive is an aversion to modernism or the avant-garde, I believe it's a reaction to the unfamiliar. We've disliked relatively conservative, tonal works that are a lot closer to Beethoven than Carter. If we were able to time-travel back to 1986 and choose Beethoven's Op.131, my initial reactions might not be anywhere near as glowing as they are now. It's pretty rare for me to love a work on first listen, but I'm trying. We can't like everything, and there might be something wrong with us if we do. It's not exactly shocking that a familiar Beethoven or Haydn quartet might get a more positive response than some experimental work written in the 21st century that is new to most of us.

I always look forward to your comments and participation in this thread and would like to see even more from you. You are exactly the kind of member we need here because you can enlighten us on some of these difficult, challenging works which are new to many of us, but old hat to you. (Would like to see more Knorf too - hint, hint, nudge, nudge).

As for the last comment, yes, this is a place for music lover's to listen to string quartets (at least virtually). That's it. All are welcome. We're not going to always agree. Finally, anyone on this forum can comment, view and like, so it's not all on us members.


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## SearsPoncho

By the way, great choice this week, Herbert! Another intense, dramatic artistic statement from Shosty. I have the Borodin Qt. recording. I will be away this week, and this is one of those quartets I was referring to in my last post: very difficult initially, grim but extremely compelling with each subsequent listen, and makes great demands on each quartet member. I can't imagine a newly formed quartet "acing" this one. It is arguably the string quartet companion to his 8th Symphony and a powerful statement about war.


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## StevehamNY

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Looking forward to the Shostakovich, who hasn't come up in a while here. I consider his quartet cycle to be one of the most outstanding bodies of work in the 20th century, forming an astounding narrative as a whole. I've found the 3rd to be a bit tough to crack, but there is undoubtedly much genius in it. Here's the typically excellent write-up from the unofficial website for Shosty quartets.


Thanks for posting this link, ACB. Here's something I found there that I never knew before:



> Shostakovich considered the quartet one of his finest works. It certainly held some deep associations for him. Years later he attended a rehearsal by the Beethoven String Quartet and Fyodor Druzhinin recalled:
> 
> "Only once did we see Shostakovich visibly moved by his own music. We were rehearsing his Third Quartet. He'd promised to stop us when he had any remarks to make. Dmitri Dmitriyevich sat in an armchair with the score opened out. But after each movement ended he just waved us on, saying, 'Keep playing!' So we performed the whole quartet. When we finished playing he sat quite still in silence like a wounded bird, tears streaming down his face. This was the only time that I saw Shostakovich so open and defenceless."


[EDIT: Sorry, Merl, you covered all of this in your excellent blog post! I should have read it first!]

I played the Borodin II recording on my pizza trip tonight. (It's not often I get the chance to blast a string quartet in the car. I know this isn't really "blasting" music, but I'm not sorry.) I have the Danel and Pacifica sets, as well, and have also enjoyed the Taneyev and Shostakovich Quartet when I've streamed them. I'm looking forward to the excuse to play them all again!

Finally, one more thank you to AAME for the Coates' quartet. Not for the first time, it's music I _never _would have discovered without this thread.


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## Merl

Digging a little more into the history of the 3rd Quartet and those titles to the movements I was reading a piece the other day that may cast a little light on it. It was saying (as we know) that the subtitles don't appear on the autograph manuscript or any published score, but Valentin Berlinsky, the cellist of Borodin Quartet, explained the origin and meaning of the subtitles in an interview with Judith Kuhn*, 
" Dmitri Shostakovich one day, as we were simply sitting, well, and also drinking a little vodka, said that there was no programme for this Quartet, but his idea was that the first movement depicted peaceful Soviet life. Nothing was occurring and everything was calm. The second movement- it is the beginning of the Second World War, although not yet in Russia; still outside the country, in 
Poland, Czechoslovakia [sings first violin theme from bar 3 of the second movement]. The third movement- it is the tank armada invasion of Russian territory. The fourth movement is a requiem for the dead, and the fifth movement is a philosophical reflection on the fate of man. "

Kuhn stated that one possibility that Shostakovich retracted the programmatic ideas is because_ 'he may have considered subtitles and programmes too limiting. Shostakovich may not have wanted to chain them to their immediate historical context, but instead hoped to allow the music to be heard also as an examination of broader human questions and experiences. The other possibility is that Shostakovich might have been worried about the harsh criticism the subtitles would receive. Since the string quartet genre held an ambiguous place in Soviet music society, and the Union of Soviet Composers discouraged composition in the genre, he may not have wanted to cause any social or public judgments with the controversial programmatic subtitles.'_

Both these ideas make some sense to me and perhaps it was a combination of both factors that led to the scrapping of titles. Its important to bear in mind the negative reaction of the Soviet authorities to his 9th symphony too. This quartet's similarity to the 8th and 9th symphonies, in form , is also intriguing. I almost get the sense in this quartet that Shostakovich is saying "Yeah, war's over but it's still the same **** at home with the same goons in charge."

_*Judith Kuhn is the author of' Shostakovich in Dialogue', a fascinating (from the bits I've read) book about the genesis, form and performance style of the first 7 quartets. As I said, I have only read excerpts from it but is really well written and easy to understand, even for Mancunian halfwits like me. _


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Thank you all for your comments on Coates' quartet, both to those that didn't find anything in it, and to those that really liked it or were intrigued by it. I'm sorry that I couldn't participate at all, I had a final on Friday and was absolutely devoted to that.


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## sbmonty

The Fitzwilliam Quartet this morning. Later this week, the Mandelring, Rubio and Pacifica Quartets. I love this cycle of works! Quartet No.3 is a great choice.


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## HenryPenfold

A great choice - every one of DSCH's string quartets is a masterpiece in my opinion and the third is rather special.


I have said several times on this forum that this book is a must for anyone who loves DSCH's string quartets. Highly informative and a very easy read.


I'm currently having a late night listen to the American combo, *Pacifica Quarte*t. Superb, *Fitzwilliam *tomorrow.







__





Amazon.co.uk






www.amazon.co.uk


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## StevehamNY

^ I'll second Henry's recommendation of the Wendy Lesser book. I've seen it criticized for being too personal and not "technical" enough, whatever that's supposed to mean, but I like it extra hard exactly for taking the more personal approach.

I know I've flogged Julia Barnes' "The Noise of Time" here before, so I'll mostly spare you, but I did find this really interesting New Yorker review that is well worth your time, no matter what you think of the book itself.

Finally, I have this on my TBR pile, haven't started it yet. Has anyone else here read it?


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## HenryPenfold

StevehamNY said:


> ^ I'll second Henry's recommendation of the Wendy Lesser book. I've seen it criticized for being too personal and not "technical" enough, whatever that's supposed to mean, but I like it extra hard exactly for taking the more personal approach.
> 
> I know I've flogged Julia Barnes' "The Noise of Time" here before, so I'll mostly spare you, but I did find this really interesting New Yorker review that is well worth your time, no matter what you think of the book itself.
> 
> Finally, I have this on my TBR pile, haven't started it yet. Has anyone else here read it?
> 
> View attachment 174559


I agree with you. I have both the Julian Barnes Book and this one.

Regarding Wendy Lesser's book, the personal angle is the main _strength_ of the book and being written in a way that the music is described narratively rather than technically, surely makes it one of the most accessible books of its kind. Ok, I'm a fan, I'm biased!


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## starthrower

Merl, any idea when that Borodin video (uploaded on your blog) dates from and which incarnation of the group it is? Their ensemble sound and articulation is superb! I also listened to the Fitzwilliam, and the later Borodin video. All excellent but that older Borodin video takes the cake.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> Merl, any idea when that Borodin video (uploaded on your blog) dates from and which incarnation of the group it is? Their ensemble sound and articulation is superb! I also listened to the Fitzwilliam, and the later Borodin video. All excellent but that older Borodin video takes the cake.


Tbh, ST, I've not got a clue and there's no info in the comments or from the uploader. Looking at the pic quality and comparing it with a 1984 video of the quartet it seems to be late 80s but who knows? If anyone else has any more info I would appreciate it, too. Agreed that it's an excellent account which is why I picked it.  The timings are remarkably similar to the one they laid down in their recording for Erato/Virgin in 1990 (at St Jude's) so I'm guessing this is from roughly the same time. 😳


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## starthrower

Judging by the hairstyles I also assumed that it dates from the 1970s. Normally I don't listen to more than a couple different versions of each week's quartet but this Shosty No.3 is so good I want to keep going.


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## Merl

Remember it's a recording from Soviet TV so if it looks like the 70s it will probably be the 80s. Let's just say that fashions and hairstyles didn't align with the West until the end of the 90s, at the earliest. Using Berlinsky's hair colour and general appearance and Abramenkov's beard as a guide is probably the best way to date it (lol). Matching how they look here in comparison to album covers (esp those Teldec ones around 1985-89) I'm sticking with the late 80s.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> Remember it's a recording from Soviet TV so if it looks like the 70s it will probably be the 80s. Let's just say that fashions and hairstyles didn't align with the West until the end of the 90s, at the earliest. Using Berlinsky's hair colour and general appearance and Abramenkov's beard as a guide is probably the best way to date it (lol). Matching how they look here in comparison to album covers (esp those Teldec ones around 1985-89) I'm sticking with the late 80s.


Who else immediately thought of this?






[EDIT: I originally posted "Uposcrabblenyk," but I think this one is more on point.]


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## Art Rock

*Dmitry Shostakovich: String Quartets (complete) Volume 3 (Eder Quartet, Naxos)*

For my early morning string quartet routine I will turn this week to my favourite cycle. This was not planned, as I have listened to two renditions of the complete Shosty cycle already the past few months (Borodin on Decca, Rubio on Brilliant). But as the third quartet is the string quartet of the week in the dedicated thread, and I have another complete cycle (Eder on Naxos) that I have not listened to for a few years, here we are. Today volume 3, String Quartets No.3 and No. 5.

Zooming in on the third, the quartet of the week: the whole cycle is so strong that I find it difficult to single out specific quartets, but after the eighth, the third is a candidate for my second favourite. The Eder renditions tend not to get much praise, but they were my first complete cycle in addition to some CD's by the Borodin Quartet, and I still have a soft spot for them.


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## Montarsolo

Listened to the quartet twice yesterday. Deeply impressed. I read in the CD booklet that Shos thought this was his best quartet.

This performance (of the third part) below should certainly not go unnoticed here:


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## Enthusiast

HenryPenfold said:


> My point is that this is the self proclaimed '_best thread on the forum_' (often proclaimed, and by more than one person) and the perspective of a _humble music lover_, yet the moment the Beethoven or Haydn isn't on the agenda, people walk away and in my opinion, can't be a.rsed.
> 
> As a passionate music-lover with an open ear, I'm often offended by the attitude on this thread. I shouldn't be, I know, but I can get ignorance anywhere, I don't expect it on a place like this.


I come to and go from this thread. Sometimes the work fits with what I want to listen to at the time and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I like a work and sometimes I don't. But to stay visible I have to have something to say and I'm not sure I often do. 

So I am not sure that those who post little on less well known pieces are walking away with closed ears. They may just not have much to say - except perhaps a polite _thank you for posting _or it's opposite, _I didn't like that very much_. With the big famous works it is possible to at least talk of which recordings we like best. But as for the music, I often have thoughts but perhaps not thoughts that are interesting to others here. Certainly, I have learned that there is not much I can say about a piece of music that others will relate to and I have stopped posting much about how I find pieces of music that are new to me.

I have been away from this thread during the Gloria Coates quartet mostly because I didn't like it very much and three hearings didn't change that. It is probably me but I couldn't get away from the feeling that Coates was making contemporary gestures rather than developing something with meaning. Probably that is unfair and prejudiced but it may be a while before I can hear the work afresh. And, for this week, the Shostakovich is a work I know and like. I have three recordings of it (OK, two of them are the Borodin Quartet) and may post something about these but I am not in the market for more recordings of the Shostakovich quartets and am not too concerned whether one of the newer recordings is or is not a revelation!


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## maestro267

I don't understand why we can't just change the thread title to Weekly Quartet. It's been going for well over 2 years now so everyone knows what the purpose is. It's the chamber music subsection's equivalent of Saturday Symphony.

For what it's worth, as someone who doesn't really care about comparing recordings (I'm just all about the music itself) I just use the thread as a means to discover new music in the medium.


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## hammeredklavier

maestro267 said:


> It's the chamber music subsection's equivalent of Saturday Symphony.


depends on how you define "chamber music"


hammeredklavier said:


> Here's an excerpt from The _String Quartet_, 1750-1797 : _Four Types_ of Musical Conversation by Parker, _Mara-_
> "In its original sense, “chamber music” simply meant music which belonged to the nobility at court as opposed to music of the church or theater. This is confirmed in the contemporary writings of Johann Walter (Musicalisches Lexikon, 1732), Meinrado Spiess (Tractatus Musicus Compositorio-Practicus, 1745), and Heinrich Koch (Musikalisches Lexikon, 1802). By the mid-eighteenth century, it also was heard in the common household and served as a form of relatively inexpensive private entertainment. Although our current convention is to use the term to designate a medium which requires but one person to a part, during the 1700s, “chamber music” denoted something different. Eighteenth-century musicians and theorists recognized three functions of music: to enhance worship in church (ecclesiasticus), to heighten the drama in the theater (itheatralis), and to provide entertainment in the court or chamber (cubicularis). This distinction was maintained well into the last quarter of the eighteenth-century, not only amongst theorists but by the general public as well."


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## Knorf

I think this thread has on occasion been remarkabky great, and at its worse is still worth a visit. I dip in and out because I get very busy, such as last week, playing at the last of the summer music festivals I have in my calendar. So I missed the Coates, but I'll try to catch up. (I also admit there are times when I'm not interested in the selection, but I don't want to be negative, so I just take a break that week.) 

I've got the Fitzwilliam Shostakovich Third on as I type. It's a quartet I've admired since my earliest acquaintance, in the early 1990s. Like all of these quartets, it's quirky, and seems to be filled with enigmas. Sometimes tne quartet is perky and tuneful, but deep anguish is never far from the surface, at times bursting out in gloomy, pessimistic anger. And then there are passages that are so very odd I think they'll always remain a question mark. The fourth movement is a soul-searching cantilena, the mournful Shostakovich that always grabs me.


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## Malx

maestro267 said:


> I don't understand why we can't just change the thread title to Weekly Quartet. It's been going for well over 2 years now so everyone knows what the purpose is. It's the chamber music subsection's equivalent of Saturday Symphony.
> 
> For what it's worth, as someone who doesn't really care about comparing recordings (I'm just all about the music itself) I just use the thread as a means to discover new music in the medium.


Whilst I understand the thought behind your post, I seriously hope that this thread does not become like the Saturday Symphony thread. I used to look forward to the Saturday choice but the thread no longer has any interesting interaction - postive or negative, just a list of which recordings have been listened to.

I know as a contributor I may not post deep meaningful comments, but on this thread I have always felt that 99% of the time if I get a reaction it is either to gently point out where I may have missed something in the music or to accept my thoughts as being fair comment.
Most often I can learn, with interest, from the comments of the more learned contributors without feeling pressured to accept their comments as fact. That for me is a highly treasured attribute that this thread possesses and long may it continue - having somewhere to voice comments without fear of being 'put in your place' for not agreeing with the norm is fast becoming ever harder to find.


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## Merl

I agree with Malx that this thread is not like the Saturday Symphony thread which to me has become largely a dull version of 'post an album cover' without much meaningful discussion (or listening, I suspect). I enjoy the range of opinions on here and the insights into the music (some of which, techically, go over my head). Whatever is said I enjoy reading everyone's comments. Its good that everyone has something interesting and unique to bring to the party and still enjoy it more than any other thread on here due to the diverse opinions of many posters, whether negative or positive. I find it interesting that so many big hitters still havent been touched yet. What I do on my own blog is my 'thing' but Im happy to constantly return here to hear others thoughts on the multitude of quartets out there and throw some different recommendations my way. My biggest issue is thinking of a quartet for this thread when it's my turn. Currently I'm holding two back for when my turn comes around again (in theory I'll pick one of them nearer the time, dependent on choices in previous weeks). Sad thing is that by the time that moment arrives I often change my mind again and choose something totally different, instead of the one I've had in my head for a month or so. It's a bit like when I head over to the CD racks to choose something to play. I rarely choose the one that was in my mind when I headed over there in the first place. Being impulsive is one of my best and worst attributes.😄

Incidentally, Art Rock, I agree that the Eder cycle is underrated (I own it too) and there are some very fine accounts in there. I just dont feel they're as committed or volatile in this particular quartet than they are otherwise (eg their fine 6th). The other slight issue with the Eder recordings is the sound. On some quartets its really good but on others it can be a bit dead which I blame on the acoustic/enginering not the quartet itself.


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## StevehamNY

Merl said:


> I enjoy the range of opinions on here and the insights into the music (some of which, techically, go over my head).


I agree one thousand percent, although in my case it's almost _all _of it that goes over my head! (I can only hope I make up for my vast technical shortcomings with my natural charm and great hair.)


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> My biggest issue is thinking of a quartet for this thread when it's my turn.


May I join your club ...  ... I have learnt to have some candidates in reserve ...

... but I agree: This is one of those threads which make this forum very attractive (from my perspevctive, of course).


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> I agree one thousand percent, although in my case it's almost _all _of it that goes over my head! (*I can only hope I make up for my vast technical shortcomings with my natural charm and great hair.*)


Steve, your hair is legendary. As someone who is follickly challenged, I am in awe at your hairyness. 🤩

@Philidor, I thought you were already in the queue for choosing a quartet.


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## HerbertNorman

I can only second the positive reactions to this thread ! I like the interaction between the contributors and the atmosphere is friendly and generally quite open minded.

@Philidor you are more than welcome!

I followed the SS thread for a while but got bored with it and it doesn't have the depth that this thread has. @Merl has an interesting blog to back up the thread here  and I have discovered some new works on it which I am grateful for.

@Art Rock the Naxos SQ Cycle by the Eder Quartet was playing in my "Man Cave" yesterday and it is a very, very good listen. I got it a few years back and it is underrated as has been mentioned in the thread.
Keep up the good work I would say to all those that post on the thread


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## Kreisler jr

The Eder disc shown above was, I think, my first disc of DSCH quartets. I am not entirely sure, another of my first ones was Brodsky with 6/11/14 or so but I preferred 3 and 5 very much to the more distant "late" quartets of that other disc. I don't have the Eder disc anymore but it was pretty good (I got rid of odd single discs for space reasons after acquiring several boxes with cplt cycles, the Eder was good but not so extraordinary that I kept it.).
I still like the 3rd quartet but when I re-listened last night (Borodin Q. 1983) I found it almost a bit cliché, maybe because it became one of the exemplary Shostakovich quartets for me. Like having 3 "ironic", somewhat dance-like movements in moderate tempo and then a dramatic, declamatory slow movement etc.


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## maestro267

I see you all took the SS comment a bit too far. Yes it's a tremendous disappointment that series doesn't have much comment about the actual music, but it's still "everyone listens to the same piece" with a different recommendation each week. That's what I meant by the comparison.

Meanwhile, my latest attempt to get through Shosty 3 without being distracted...


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## Merl

maestro267 said:


> Meanwhile, my latest attempt to get through Shosty 3 without being distracted...


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> @Philidor, I thought you were already in the queue for choosing a quartet.


Thank you for reminding! You will find myself prepared. 👩‍💻


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## Philidor

After a second listen to Shosty #3, my impression that this quartet is the grim cousin of Symphony No. 9 got some confirmation.


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## Montarsolo

From the cd-booklet of the Borodin recording.


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## Malx

Having listened through the three recordings I have and another three more via streaming I have come to the conclusion that all the recordings I have heard are valid interpretations of the third quartet.

Composed as it was at the end of WWII it is not that much of a surprise to hear conflicting sentiments, maybe even confused thoughts and styles coming through in the quartet. I don't find these elements to be too conflicting but when listening I feel that I don't want to hear a performance/recording that is too slick - the dance elements and the gloomier elements need to be clearly distinguishable.

With that in mind the two recordings I ended up enjoying most this week were the Melodiya Borodin Quartet recording and the new Nous Quartet recording. 
As is always the case the next time I listen my preferences may well vary.


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## Philidor

Shostakovich wrote the 3rd quartet after the Symphony #9 was rejected.

After symphonies #7 and #8, everyone expected an heroic symphony from Shostakovich with the magical number 9, in particular for glorifying the victory in WWII. What great trilogy this could have been from a russian perspective - two symphonies about war and one on the victory. A choir and vocal soloists were planned, the symphony should exceed everything that was known to be a symphony. Mahler 8 squared or something like this.

Shosty seems to have begun his 9th symphony in this way. There were already announcements in newspapers (TASS) that Shosty was about to write a symphony that was dedicated to "the great victory". But the composer soon refused himself to celebrate the "victory" and wrote some light-weighted symphony with ironic submessages that didn't meet the expectations at all despite the heroic key of E-flat major. Shosty played it in a reduction for piano (four hands) with Svjatoslav Richter. One contemporary witness (Rabinovich) reported that all were shocked by the uniqueness of the symphony.

Mravinsky conducted the premiere and conducted the symphony for a second time, but then never again.

Most reactions were negative. "Far away from the emotions that all of us shared" (Nestyev) Even western critics wrozte things like "banal" and "uninteresting". The russian government felt provoked, the work was banned later on. See Wikipedia.

Then there followed the 3rd string quartet ... do you hear the irony in the first movement, similar to symphony #9?


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## Kreisler jr

Merl said:


> My biggest issue is thinking of a quartet for this thread when it's my turn. Currently I'm holding two back for when my turn comes around again


I usually have one or two favorites and one or two "substitutes". Beethoven's op.18/1 was my fav but I had one classical, one romantic and one 20th century as other options, if someone had chosen Beethoven or Mozart only a few weeks before my turn, I would have picked one of the other options, depending both on my inclination and the last handful or so choices in this thread.

And I am really surprised that anyone is surprised that not all contributors to this thread take extra time and effort not only for dutifully listening to music they might not much care for but even feel obliged to give reports! Even only for lack of time or leisure it is of course perfectly acceptable not to listen at all or not to comment if one listened but didn't feel one had anything to contribute. 
I also cannot avoid the impression that some members are going for ever more exotic works (for whatever reasons). Fair enough, but do not be surprised if it gets lonely.


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## Philidor

Kreisler jr said:


> I also cannot avoid the impression that some members are going for ever more exotic works (for whatever reasons).


I feel that both possibilities are ok - selecting some well-known quartet such as Schubert #14 or selecting something almost unknown - Bretón and van Eechaute were amazing to my mind, to name but two.

Both can attract the members of this thread or reject them. - I am equally glad about listening to Beethoven's op. 18 No. 1 with (maybe) a little more care than in other times.

Even if someone chose an exotic work for questionable reasons - if the music is good, who cares for the reasons behind?


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## Enthusiast

The Shostakovich is a fine work but for me seems to rely a lot on the last movement (moderato) for its gravitas. I am less taken by the first and fourth movements but they work well enough within the whole. I have only listened to the three I have. Two of those are by the Borodin quartet and of these I prefer what I take to be the earlier one (in a set with quartets 1-13 - 14 and 15 hadn't been written) partly because it gives us a great last movement. The other recording I have is in the Fitzwilliam set and is probably my overall favourite of the three.


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## Kreisler jr

The point was that one cannot first suggest an exotic piece (because it's a personal fav or one wants to show one's breadth of knowledge) and then complain that not many people are commenting. 
For me, the mix is important. 
But the last time, a year ago or so, some complained about not enough contributions, this was after 3 or 4 comparably obscure 20th century pieces, all from British or Scandinavian composers, in a row. That's why I keep several pieces in mind, not to have three weeks of Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert in a row and neither Zemlinsky, Berg, Schönberg or so.


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## Philidor

Ok, next one will be neither 1800 nor 2000.


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## Philidor

If I didn't miss anything, the quartets of the past weeks have been:

Friedrich Gernsheim: Quartet No. 3 (1885)
Friedrich Cerha: Quartet No. 2 (1989-1990)
Beethoven: Quartet op. 18 No. 1 (1798-1800)
Gloria Coates: Quartet No. 9 (2007)
Shostakovich: Quartet No. 3 (1946)

... in that sequence.


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## Montarsolo

The young Donizetti wrote nice string quartets...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I'm a bit out of string quartets at the moment and have a hard time with anything Russian. I like to cry over Norwegian folk music and have covid and quit smoking...and some death metal to sooth the soul \m/ I hope Putin dies soon...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Sorry people, everything is fine now...👻


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## Allegro Con Brio

The Shosty 3rd quartet is one of those works that I appreciate as an "objectively great" piece of music (whatever that may mean): it's a deeply impressive achievement; a great, sweeping, unbroken arc of fiercely original music that takes us into regions that seem previously unexplored and forces the performers to expend unprecedented amounts of creative energy in interpreting it. But I just can't seem to connect with it on a personal level. This is a towering, tangled edifice with many treasures within, but it requires great intellectual concentration on the listener's behalf and I guess I'm not up for that this week. From the opening quintessentially Shostian limping, sardonic tune we know we're in for a crazy ride, and I can't help but marvel at how much sheer unrelenting invention is contained within this quartet. The finale is probably the most difficult movement, while the hauntingly elegiac fourth movement is probably my favorite. This is deeply personal and probing music, and in some ways it seems impossible for any of us to ever fully understand it. But isn't that a pivotal mark of a truly great work of art?

There's been some meta-discussion this week about the thread, and I'm glad to see the continued positive vibes. I'm only an occasional visitor of this forum anymore, and I don't think I'll ever be nearly as involved in the thread as I was in the Days of Quarantine, but I am still grateful for its existence. Onward we plunge!


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## Philidor

If I understood everything correctly, I am now to propose some quartet for listening and discussing ...

... given the information that the four latest (and excellent) choices came from 1798/1800 (Beethoven) or post WWII (Shosty, Cerha, Coates), I guess that I shouldn't be totally misguided to select a quartet from the time between those pillars.

So I came to

*Max Reger: String Quartet G minor op. 54 No. 1* (composed in November 1900)

and I hope you will like it a little bit.

If you like the finale of Beethoven's op. 59 No. 3, there is some possibility that you will like this one ...

This morning I listened for the first time to the recording by the Drolc Quartet (DG) who are offering a well accessible rendition imho. I know the recordings by the Berner Streichquartett (cpo) and the Mannheimer Streichquartett (MDG), which are focussing on the intricacies of the work. Harder stuff to my mind, but they are well worth listening too.

I own a further recording by the Tel-Aviv-Quartet, which came along in a box with the entire chamber music of Max Reger on 23 CDs, but it is OOP and, honestly said, below today's standards.

Enjoy!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I listened to Max Reger a couple of times. This one I like a lot! Reger is a composer I want to like more than I actually do (if that makes sense...). Maybe I didn't pay attention when listening before. This is cool! I have only put on the Mannheim string quartet because I love the MDG recordings.


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## Merl

I had a listen to the Tel Aviv quartet recording this morning but it's safe to say I wouldn't recommend their early 70s performance and I'll be looking elsewhere for my blog post. Next up, the Drolc, Berner and Mannheimer recordings (from sets I know well). Like Reger's other quartets this is an enjoyable quartet that I look forward to reacquainting myself with this week. There is a set I usually prefer for these quartets but I'm going to make sure I relisten to every recording I have as my thoughts may have changed over the past few years.


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## Mandryka

Be sure to have your hankie ready to wipe away a tear in the slow movement.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Reger is a composer I want to like more than I actually do (if that makes sense...).


Same here! Hopefully I can get that out of this quartet


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## HerbertNorman

I listened to the Mannheimer recording that I own. In my opinion I haven't done enough of an effort to really get to like Reger's work in general either.
First listen was an enjoyable one but admittedly I still have to get out of the Shostakovich vibe  I like the Mannheimer performance and would recommend it. 
The drolc will be the one I will listen to this evening 👍


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## Malx

Listened twice through the Mannheimer recording this morning and I have been happily surprised by this piece. I say happily surprised because Reger is a composer I had given a body swerve to largely based on reading that his works tend towards being, dense, dull and some other unattractive adjectives. A couple of orchestral works I heard years back kind of confirmed that for me but here I don't hear anything other than an enjoyable quartet that is lively in the 2nd & 4th movements split by a very decent slow movement and an opening movement that hooked me on first hearing - I do preach 'listen with your own ears' perhaps I need to listen to my own sermon!


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## Merl

I've had the Reger quartets some years now, courtesy of the Drolc (CD) and Mannheimer (Digital) sets. Funnily enough I've never got on as much with Reger's first three quartets as the 4th onwards but after relistening I've been enjoying rediscovering them (to varying degrees - that 3rd Quartet is still wayyyyy too long). This is certainly the best of those early 3 and whilst I find that opening movement still a little too dense and busy the subsequent movements are all very fine. The largo is, as Mandryka points out, the emotional heart and is quite beautiful. It was certainly nice to rediscover this one. I'm torn over a favourite recording already. Apart from the Tel Aviv all are recommendable. Id urge you to check out the old Reger Quartet Vox recordings of Reger’s quartets from the 70s.They're on YouTube in differing quality LP rips. Interesting.


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## SearsPoncho

Philidor, what a pleasant surprise! I enjoyed this one. 

I've kept my distance from Reger for reasons others have elaborated on, but I liked this quartet on 1st listen. Much of it, particularly the 1st mvmt., sounded like a violin concerto redux, or a concerto for violin and 3 string instruments. I suppose that could be said for other quartets, but it was advantageous here, in light of the extremely dense textures. It was very German, very romantic, and very chromatic, and I was "all in" for the experience. I thought the density of the writing, as well as the quick, almost maniacal polyphony would be a turn-off, but it wasn't. The slow movement did allow me to catch my breath, but not for long. Perhaps the slow movement could have been a bit more austere to provide a greater contrast. The Finale was kind of cute and catchy and, man, this guy was a contrapuntal machine! 

This is one of my favorite "discoveries" since I've joined the thread. I will be returning to it, and I'm pretty sure I will be buying a recording...I just hope his other quartets are of the same quality.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Max Reger string quartets is what I've been listening to the last week (apart from some metal & punk). Lost count of which ones, but really like them all  I was happy enough with Mannheim string quartet on MDG. Got to find some Reger to play on guitar, which will be a solo cello-suite.


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## Malx

Well, I have partially shaken my reluctance to listen to Reger - this first quartet has proved to be a turning point for me. I have tried three recordings, the Mannheimer, Drolc and Berne Quartets. All are successful in making the piece sound appealing but I have a slight preference for the Mannheimer.
I also listened to a few others from the Drolc set but none seemed to grab my attention as much as this one. 
Thanks for opening a door for me Philidor.


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## Art Rock

I have never found Reger difficult to get into - I dove head first into the organ works, followed by orchestral output and finally chamber music. Lots to treasure in each of these genres, and although in the chamber music the clarinet quintet is my favourite, the string quartets are well worth while too. I have listened to the Mannheimer this morning.


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## Merl

I much prefer the 1st quartet to the two that followed (that 3rd quartet is still a good 20 mins too long). Reger did love his fugues, didn't he?


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## Allegro Con Brio

As an organist, I feel that I should like Reger a lot more than I do. As it stands, I don't particularly love or hate his music. I find it a lot of it to be meandering and directionless, but some, like the Clarinet Quintet and some of his variation sets, I find delightful. I struggled to get into his 4th quartet when we did that a couple years ago, but this one was more accessible. After the first movement I feared this would be a specimen of the "meandering" Reger; as I fought off inattentiveness throughout. But after the fun little scherzo and the slow movement incorporating effective contrasts, I was warming to it more. And then the finale hit. Oh my goodness, what a toe-tapping, joyful ride that movement is! This is one of those times where you can really tell the composer is having fun writing something. This would be a wonderful stand-alone piece for a quartet to perform as an encore or one-off, as it sounds quite virtuosic. On the whole, I thought the quartet juxtaposed seriousness with levity quite well, and the result is a throughly satisfactory experience (though I do want to spend some more time that first movement). Very nice pick, Philidor.

We haven't done album covers in a while, so here's a puzzler from the Drolc Quartet's complete cycle. Is this meant to infer that listening to this music is like going on a mushroom trip? Or that Reger is just a really _fungi_? OK, all-around fail.










The final choice in this round will go to *maestro267*. If anyone else would like to choose a quartet before we go back to the top of the order, just let me know!


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## StevehamNY

^ Best pun of the week (maybe the year), but does this look like a really _fungi_ to you?


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## Malx

StevehamNY said:


> ^ Best pun of the week (maybe the year), but does this look like a really _fungi_ to you?
> 
> View attachment 175209


Perhaps not 'fungi' Steve - but for some strange reason this character popped into my mind


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## maestro267

Might as well make my choice now. I don't really know when the "week" of listening officially begins.

For weeks I had a quartet in mind for when my turn came around, but that was somewhat thrown into disarray when another quartet by the same composer was selected a few weeks ago. At first I was just going to roll with it and pick it anyway, until I had a look through the list and saw a gap I could fill that would also complete a cycle for us. With that in mind, I've decided to go for *Benjamin Britten's String Quartet No. 2 *from 1945. I picked up the Maggini Quartet recording of Britten's string quartets in the spring and have thoroughly enjoyed all of them.

And for the record my original choice was going to be Shostakovich's 12th SQ.


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## Philidor

Great choice, maestro267! I just listened to the recording by the Magginis and I am enchanted from the very beginning. Wonderful piece, needs further exploring. - This quartet is on my shelf for decades, but somehow I neglegted it ... so thank you for giving an impulse to dig it out.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Britten's quartets definitely reward deep study, so looking forward to this one, Maestro.



maestro267 said:


> I don't really know when the "week" of listening officially begins.


My apologies for not making this clear. *The listening week officially begins on Sunday*, so posters should ordinarily aim to put up their quartet on that day. This seems to allow for the maximum time for everyone to devote to each selection. No big deal, but just a point of information for the future


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## maestro267

Thank you


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## Merl

Yay, I've blogged the Britten 2nd so I can listen to a few of my faves and finish a mini project I started last week.


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## Chilham

A, "Yay", from me too. I can 'play' this week as Britten's 2nd appears on my listing.


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## HerbertNorman

Good choice for me ,I like Britten's string quartet output. I've started with the Emperor Quartet recording on BIS


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## Merl

Before moving on to Britten, a final word about Regger's 1st quartet. Firstly thanks to Philidor for proposing this one. I'd not played it in at least 10 years and it made little impression back then. Returning to my Drolc set I was pleasantly surprised at how enjoyable it is and I'd probably put it on par with the 5th quartet in that respect but behind his finest quartet, IMO, the 4th. Yeah, it ain't on a par with this week's Britten 2nd quartet but it's a decent effort. Listening again made me revisit (and blog) this quartet and the rest of the Reger quartets (ill post the 5th in a bit) . With this in mind, and after checking out the different versions of Reger's works I'd say that these quartets are in dire need of a re-evaluation and re-recording in today's excellent sound and by a quartet of better quality than those who've done them before. In my review of the 1st I said that I'd like to hear the Leipziger, Belcea, Artemis, Takacs, etc have a crack at these and that opinion remains. As far as the works go I now rate the 1st, 4th and 5th (not just the 4th) and will be returning to them. The 2nd I find annoying and the 3rd is just too bloody long and sprawling but that is perhaps what keeps Reger from many peoples' top playlists. Apart from his fugal obsession he does tend to wander off at a tangent trying to develop new ideas which can lead to a frustrating listen for some. Still enjoyable to revisit though.


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## HerbertNorman

I watched and listened to this performance of the quartet and found it quite moving. Nice performance I would say. Britten is just amazing at creating an electrifying atmosphere .... especially in the second movement. The Castalian make a great effort here.
Tonight I will be listening to the Takacs Quartet interpretation.


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> a final word about Regger's 1st quartet


Please allow me a word after the final one ... it is about the finale of *Reger's op. 54 No. 1*.

In literature, it is sometimes described as a double fugue, e. g. in the booklet of the Mannheim String Quartet's recording.

Whether this is true or not depends on the definition of a proper double fugue. To my opinion, the finale is far away from what you usually are expecting from a double fugue. Either both subjects are introduced together from the very beginning, as with the fugue in Bach's Passacaglia for organ BWV 582, or the first subject gets an exposition and some development, then the second subject, and in the third part of the fugue both subjects appear in a combined way, e. g. in the fugue in BWV 540 (Toccata and Fugue F major).

In Reger's op. 54/1, things are different. It is funny to see that the "second subject" first appears as a chorale (bar 89, bar 123, then in bar 284) before it turns out to become the second subject of the fugue, this happens not earlier than bar 291. (However, chromatic lines appear very often in the finale, but not with the exact shape of the second subject.)

From there on, the second subject is the regular companion of the first - for the time being.

Near the end, the second subject even seems to throw the first subject out of the game, however, it does not succeed. But it is a drama, a fight between the two subjects in the end, but the first subject gains the upper hand, the second subject even gets back to its innocent choral habit, before the first subject "wins" in the end ...

I do not know any other fugue with such scenario.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

So I put on my Takács recording and at the exact same time a train whistle blew! I really loved that surprise! (the train whistle usually plays a minor seventh interval kind of like a donkey) 🤓
Britten is a very important composer for me. I got hooked on Nocturnal for guitar and Songs from the Chinese in high-school and later also Spring symphony & Hymn to St. Cecilia. Cello suites! I love all of them when I hear them <3 The last movement of the quartet made me remember


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## SearsPoncho

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> So I put on my Takács recording and at the exact same time a train whistle blew! I really loved that surprise! (the train whistle usually plays a minor seventh interval kind of like a donkey) 🤓
> Britten is a very important composer for me. I got hooked on Nocturnal for guitar and Songs from the Chinese in high-school and later also Spring symphony & Hymn to St. Cecilia. Cello suites! I love all of them when I hear them <3 The last movement of the quartet made me remember


Do you have the Julian Bream recording? That was a pretty important album of 20th century works for guitarists.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

SearsPoncho said:


> Do you have the Julian Bream recording? That was a pretty important album of 20th century works for guitarists.


Sir Bream recorded it twice and I have heard both many times. He is the saint of classical guitar <3


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## Carmina Banana

Philidor said:


> Please allow me a word after the final one ... it is about the finale of *Reger's op. 54 No. 1*.
> 
> In literature, it is sometimes described as a double fugue, e. g. in the booklet of the Mannheim String Quartet's recording.
> 
> Whether this is true or not depends on the definition of a proper double fugue. To my opinion, the finale is far away from what you usually are expecting from a double fugue. Either both subjects are introduced together from the very beginning, as with the fugue in Bach's Passacaglia for organ BWV 582, or the first subject gets an exposition and some development, then the second subject, and in the third part of the fugue both subjects appear in a combined way, e. g. in the fugue in BWV 540 (Toccata and Fugue F major).
> 
> In Reger's op. 54/1, things are different. It is funny to see that the "second subject" first appears as a chorale (bar 89, bar 123, then in bar 284) before it turns out to become the second subject of the fugue, this happens not earlier than bar 291. (However, chromatic lines appear very often in the finale, but not with the exact shape of the second subject.)
> 
> From there on, the second subject is the regular companion of the first - for the time being.
> 
> Near the end, the second subject even seems to throw the first subject out of the game, however, it does not succeed. But it is a drama, a fight between the two subjects in the end, but the first subject gains the upper hand, the second subject even gets back to its innocent choral habit, before the first subject "wins" in the end ...
> 
> I do not know any other fugue with such scenario.


Thanks for this analysis. I had to go back and listen. I agree that it is an unusual example of double fugue. It seems like the second subject should have its own fugal treatment but it just sort of interrupts the main fugal activity and then business as usual. Finally, he does combine the subjects, but the second one never really felt like a fugue subject. A professor of mine once corrected a student when he called fugue a form. It isn't a form, he insisted. It is a process. In other words the end result can have a very different shape and proportions. It is only a series of manipulations that make it a fugue. I guess this is an example of that flexibility.


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## Kreisler jr

There is one Bach fugue (probably more?), F# major from WTC 1 where a subject that, I think stems from an interlude, not even a proper countersubject, "takes over" in the end.


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## Carmina Banana

I think many twentieth century composers grappled with this question: what do I retain from the nineteenth century? 

If the decision was to ditch some of the baggage from the previous century, then a system of some kind was necessary. In the case of Reger, everything became a chromatic jungle. For some, serialism would solve all problems. Etc., etc.

Britten, I feel, is one of those composers who didn’t subscribe to a system, but just wrote in a manner that seemed to express what he wanted to express. This might be an ingenuous thing to say; Britten scholars could probably point to a continuity of compositional techniques, but I feel like whenever I listen to Britten, he is reinventing himself for the sake of that piece alone. I guess that explains why some of his music leaves me a bit cold and some of it is wonderful. 

This is one of those wonderful pieces.


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## Merl

I'm surprised there's not been much discussion of the Britten this week but perhaps that's because I know a lot of us on this thread rate this quartet highly. It took me a while to 'get' the 2nd. When I first heard the Britten quartets, strangely, the 1st grabbed me from the off (I think it was that excellent 1st movement) and I didn't find the 3rd too difficult but with this quartet I kinda said to myself "what's all the fuss about"? Roll on several years and my opinion changed completely probably after some serious time spent with the Sorrel recording which I picked up at a charity shop for 50p. It just impressed from the off and really opened the door to this work for me in a way that the perfectly fine Belcea hadn't, previously. Incidentally, I only blogged this one fairly recently so if you're vaguely interested there's a link to the blog below. I hope you've all found a recording of this important quartet that really resonates with you.









Britten - String Quartet 2 op.36 (SQ review)


If Britten's 1st quartet is playful and pensive then Britten's 2nd quartet is the opposite. Its a strong, highly impressive and emotionally angst-ridden quartet and regarded by many as his masterpiece of the genre. Composed to coincide with the 250th anniversary of Purcell's death, it was...




www.talkclassical.com


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## SearsPoncho

^ Merl, I've been occupied with a fellow named Ian, but as soon as I'm able, I'll get back into the swing of things.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> (probably more?)


the C sharp minor from WTC I


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## StevehamNY

I haven't had much time to post this week, but I will say that this thoroughly engaging quartet has turned out to be one of the best musical surprises of this year. (And here it was sitting in the middle of this Britten/Takacs disk that I barely remember buying!)

Thanks, Maestro!


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## HerbertNorman

First of all , @SearsPoncho , I hope you and your family are safe and OK ! 

I like @Carmina Banana 's post about Britten trying to reinvent himself for the piece itself. Good way to put it! There's a whole lot of Britten's work that I needed time to get into. The second sting quartet is one of them , but like I posted earlier I rate Britten's SQ output highly and I appreciated it quite quickly. 

I listened to the Takacs recording yesterday evening , when I finally found time for it. For me this is the best I have listened to yet!!! They get it completely right for me.
@Merl Thanks for the Blog , I enjoyed reading it as ever ...


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## maestro267

I suck at describing music. Obviously I love the quartet as I wouldn't have chosen it otherwise. I'm also a big fan of the Passacaglia as form. It's appropriately weighty and when it forms a finale which takes up well over half the length of the work it's all the better.


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## sbmonty

Finally getting a chance to listen after a very long week. Maggini and Takács this morning. Thanks for another excellent choice!

SearsPoncho... wishing you the very best.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I'll comment on the Britten tomorrow. Just wanted to remind everyone that we've reached the end of this cycle, so we'll go back to the top and I'll make a choice for next week.

SP, I sincerely hope all is OK with you. The photos of devastation are heartbreaking.


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## Malx

I'll echo others' comments by hoping all is well with you SP.

I've finally got around to listening to the three recordings I have of this quartet, having been otherwise distracted this week. 
Like the other Britten quartets this is a work that I have grown to rate enormously, at first I felt it was inbalanced with the third movement lasting longer than the other two together but why does a piece need to conform to a set structure to work - the more I have listened to the piece over time the more enjoyment I am getting from it.
I like the fact that both the Doric (which I have streamed) and the Emerson Quartets combine their recordings with pieces by Purcell that formed part of the inspiration for the piece. 
Of the discs I have I probably marginally favour the Emersons in this work over the Emperor & Belcea recordings - I have yet to hear the much vaunted Takacs recording other than the little snippets on the Hyperion website.
Another great selection which I will listen to again over the weekend.


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## Art Rock

I listened to the Takacs and the Tokyo Quartet. The Takacs is generally highly regarded, but I hardly see the Tokyo mentioned. I thought it was pretty good as well.


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## Carmina Banana

I have only listened to the Maggini and watched the Castalian Quartet on Youtube. Sometimes I love to see performances as well as hear them. This first violinist in particular has such personality. She seems to know this piece almost for memory which is amazing to me when you consider all of the repertoire a string quartet probably goes through. 

I haven’t looked into the background of this piece so I was interested to hear about Purcell’s influence. I will have to find out more.

One thought I had during my recent listen was: dissonance can be a powerful tool if we have consonance as a reference point. The major triad oases in this piece are bold and put the rest of the piece into a certain perspective. Many composers in the 20th century and 21st century have made dissonance the norm and dispensed with triads. That is not in itself a bad thing and it may be a necessary thing for that composer. However, the composer who is able to keep the past in our consciousness while forging new means of expression is harnessing the power of contrast. 

I remember hearing once from a visual artist: a splash of red is meaningless if the whole painting is red.


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## Knorf

Carmina Banana said:


> I remember hearing once from a visual artist: a splash of red is meaningless if the whole painting is red.


I'm grateful Mark Rothko did not agree with this.


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## Carmina Banana

Knorf said:


> I'm grateful Mark Rothko did not agree with this.


Ha ha! Yes, touche.


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## Allegro Con Brio

The 2nd is my favorite of Britten's three, even though I still struggle with these works on the whole. I find them quite mysterious and unpredictable (which is a good thing too!), but I still think I have yet to make heads and tails of Britten's musical arguments in these works, or to fully track where he is going with his gestures and ideas. And that's OK! I do feel that these are truly great pieces that keep inviting me to revisit them. Britten is a bit more lyrical and song-like in this quartet for sure. The first movement is mostly calm and rhapsodic, concluding in gorgeous fashion. As in the other two, the scherzo is a brief little wisp. However, the finale is clearly where it's at here, and it's clearly a compositional marvel; a paragon of neoclassical triumph. I liked what both the Brodsky and Endellion did with this one; with my preference leaning slightly toward the latter for their more rich and romantic approach.

As it's my choice this week, I decided to go with something that will be familiar and beloved to many of us, from one of the great quartet composers who we have not done for a while. I sampled several quartets by Dvořák in preparation for this, and eventually decided on what is possibly the most famous quartet that hasn't made our list yet: his *String Quartet No. 12 in F Major "American." *I have loved this work since I became infatuated with Dvořák early in my classical voyage, and find it to encapsulate the composer in a nutshell: life-enhancing, smile-inducing music, like fresh autumn breezes. I hope you all enjoy. Here is Trout's list of 10 recommended recordings:

1. Pavel Haas Quartet

2. Talich Quartet (1976)

3. Hagen Quartet

4. Smetana Quartet (1966)

5. Panocha Quartet 

6. Emerson Quartet

7. Pražák Quartet

8. Alban Berg Quartett

9. Prague Quartet

10. Vlach Quartet Prague


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## Art Rock

My favourite string quartet. I will choose the Delme Quartet - my introduction to this masterpiece 35 years ago.


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## starthrower

I'm still trying to locate my Britten Quartets CD with no success. I have the composer's namesake quartet recordings on Brilliant Classics. I don't know Dvorak's quartets at all but I did pick up the Brodsky Quartet CD of "The American" on Chandos last year. I look forward to revisiting this one.


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## HerbertNorman

One of my all time favourites too, I will start with the Hagen Quartet recording. It's also one of the first SQs I got to know , looking forward to it


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## Merl

Lol, this should keep you guys busy this week. Luckily I blogged this one last year, after months of listening to well over 100 recordings. Apart from Schubert's DATM this is probably the most heavily recorded quartet out there. There are lots of hidden gems of recordings of this one that get no coverage, especially newer ones that were recorded well after Trout's Amazon review aggregates. Apart from the classics - Keller, Prazak, Pavel Haas, etc there's a whole world of Americans to go at so have a good listen outside your usual recordings too. Here's my blog list for those interested. 









Dvorak - String Quartet 12 op.96 'American&#039...


Here's the Pavel Haas performing it live I have a truly ridiculous number of 'American' quartet recordings on disc and on the HD and there are somewhere just over 100 recordings out there so to just cut this down to recommendable releases would be silly. I could be here all day. So with this...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post. Can't believe that I was just looking online, before, and there are another 5-10 recordings of this quartet that have been released or rereleased since I did my blog so my work hasn't finished on this one. Lol. Luckily my blogs are working documents. 😄


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## maestro267

An opportunity for me to listen to this Dvorak quartet for the first time. Listening to the recording I got given in the spring, by Vlach Quartet Prague.

UPDATE: Might as well amend this one. I love it! It's so full of life and vitality!


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## Malx

I have dived in today playing two recordings of Dvořák's 'American' quartet from my collection and a couple more streamed - Panocha, Hagen + Takács, Prazák.


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## sbmonty

Panocha and Prazak are the two I own. Listened to them both yesterday. What a gorgeous slow movement.


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## Merl

Btw, listen out for those that really bring that birdsong alive in the scherzo. There's one quartet who play that movement unlike anyone else (and it sounds incredible).

Regarding the birdsong, btw, some experts believe Dvorak identified the wrong bird when he composed that third movement. It's no big deal but I think they are right. There's a little about it below.









The right bird’s song: Biology professor and musician uncover the inspiration behind Antonín Dvořák’s “American” String Quartet - Carleton College


Towsley Professor of Biology Mark McKone and his husband David Beccue discuss their recent research and scholarly paper that digs into both music history and ecology—all within a familiar musical movement that was inspired by a bird.



www.carleton.edu





Edit: Btw, if you don't have a decent copy of Dvorak's American Quartet, and you're on a tight budget, the good news is that in this quartet there are some exceptionally fine budget options (most of these are in my blog but I'll give you a bit more info here). Sometimes these turn up in charity shops for even cheaper prices.
Often the cheapest option online for the 12th (and it looks cheap and totally unimpressive but is in fact a fine performance) is a recording labeled as the 'Royal Philharmonic Chamber Ensemble' (a good description).
It's been on multiple budget labels but don't be deterred as this is quality former members of the RPO. So what you get is former first violinist, concertmaster and soloist, Jonathan Carney (now concertmaster of the Baltimore SO), Ovens (a fine violinist), Williams and Lidstrom playing a strong, well-recorded, more romantic, well-structured American. The accompanying Borodin is slightly less impressive (but still decent). However, it's important to know that the American quartet was their go-to as a chamber ensemble, in many live performances, and it shows. For a similar pitifully cheap outlay there's also a fairly decent 12th from the Moyzes quartet on Naxos but this is heavily superceded by an excellent performance (again on Naxos) from the (New) Vlach Quartet. Yes, I know that New Vlach Dvorak cycle has its ups and downs (I've blogged them all and own them all) but in this one they totally nailed it. I even have the old Vlach Quartet's American and I'm not exaggerating in saying that the New Vlach recording is better played and structured (that seems like heresy for me). Its cohesive, lovingly played, with fine intonation and is honestly one of my favourite 12th recordings out there, even if its among the broader readings. There are a few similarly enthusiastic reviews online of those who agree with me about this one, too (Musicweb, classicstoday). Another to lookout for is in the super cheap Warner Apex box 'Chamber Music' that often appears for buttons online - I paid a ridiculous £2.50 for it. It's cheap and has some great quality stuff packed on the 4cds that make it up (both of Janacek's quartets are very capably performed by the Helsinki Quartet amongst them). The prize of the box, however, is the Keller Quartet's beautifully played and paced classic account of the 12th which is tough to beat and a hugely popular account.


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## SearsPoncho

Thank you all for the warm wishes and concern. We're fine. Lucky.

It's great to see Dvorak back. I've been listening to a lot of Dvorak this year. This week's selection is obviously his most famous chamber music composition. I'm not sure it would crack my top 3 Dvorak quartets, but that has more to do with the high quality of his other quartets. We all know the great tunes and beautiful idiom he chose. I have multiple recordings, with the Panocha Quartet getting the most play, although the Emersons are perfectly serviceable in a disc that also contains the most famous quartets of Tchaikovsky and Borodin.

By the way, Fife must have 34 hours in a day. How else can Merl get through all the recordings of this warhorse? lol


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> By the way, Fife must have 34 hours in a day. *How else can Merl get through all the recordings of this warhorse? *lol


I posted that blog over a year ago after spending a few months of listening to the recordings. Saying that, it was made simpler for a few reasons. Firstly I knew a fair few of the 'classic' recordings (Keller, Pavel Haas, Talich etc) as I've owned them for years. This was also one of the quartets I reviewed multiple recordings of on that old classical blog I contributed to years back and I'd kept my notes. Really it was just a matter of hearing the newest releases of it, in the space in between my blogs, and doing a bit of relistening to familiar ones. It was a similar story for DATM. I had changed my mind on quite a few, though, moving several up in my estimation.If you can't find a really good recording of the American you're really not looking hard enough.


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## SearsPoncho

A little about the music...

It's interesting that a Czech composer might have created the American sound in classical music. This is just my 2 cents, but the composer usually associated with THE American sound in the classical music world is Aaron Copland. Nevertheless, here is Dvorak, 7 years before Copland was born, giving us music influenced by African-American and Native American folk music, particularly "Negro" spirituals. In addition, we have those slashing, angular rhythms and what sounds like free use of the pentatonic scale, which, as many of you know, plays a key role in blues music, whose pioneers were African-American. There are even Gershwin-esque moments. Of course, Delius composed his great Florida Suite, which contains some of these elements, before Dvorak's "American" quartet. It's interesting that Europeans brought out American folk influences into classical music, creating a unique tonal Americana in classical music. Again, these are just my opinions based on what I hear - I've never looked at the score. I'm probably wrong. 

I believe this is Dvorak's most concise quartet. Interestingly enough, Dvorak stated that he was thinking of Papa Haydn throughout its creation. By the way, there is an addictive quality to this one. I'll dig out my Panocha Quartet recording and listen to it tonight!


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## Allegro Con Brio

One thing I really admire about this quartet is how it melds the best elements of popular music—perfectly crafted melodic hooks, a jazzy improvisatory quality, kicking rhythms—with the structural satisfaction and richness of the classical tradition. I think especially of the middle section of the second movement, which has a gorgeous section that reminds me of the plangent sound of a steel-guitar ballad in a country song, and the finale, which layers those peppy melodies on top of a pizzicato canvas that almost sounds like the free-spirited drum backup of a jazz trio. Dvorak had an amazingly astute ear and a genuine respect for folk traditions, and was able to integrate them into classical European forms IMO without a hint of condescension or "cultural appropriation."


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## Kreisler jr

I am not sure but I think I once read about this piece (and/or the new world symphony) that bohemian folk music was a far stronger influence than the very spurious American elements. As for the aspects mentioned by AcB I think most of them didn't exist in the late 19th century, at least not in the specifity, maybe on a more general level common to many improvisation traditions, but I am not sure. 
In any case, Stephen Foster or Scott Joplin and similar folksy popular American music of the time sounds to me rather different from Dvorak's quartet...


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## Allegro Con Brio

^Right. But Dvorak did devote serious time to studying African-American and Native American musical traditions, and his friendship with Harry T. Burleigh also played a role. I think part of why he sounds different than "true American folk music" is exactly due to his simultaneous influence by Bohemian traditions, but I still want to argue that, at least in some ways, his music contributed to our understanding of the "American sound."


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## Malx

Allegro Con Brio said:


> One thing I really admire about this quartet is how it melds the best elements of popular music—perfectly crafted melodic hooks, a jazzy improvisatory quality, kicking rhythms—with the structural satisfaction and richness of the classical tradition. I think especially of the middle section of the second movement, which has a gorgeous section that reminds me of the plangent sound of a steel-guitar ballad in a country song, and the finale, which layers those peppy melodies on top of a pizzicato canvas that almost sounds like the free-spirited drum backup of a jazz trio. Dvorak had an amazingly astute ear and a genuine respect for folk traditions, and was able to integrate them into classical European forms IMO without a hint of condescension or "cultural appropriation."


Aw, ACB I was just going to post that - well maybe not using those exact words .

Whilst listening this week to the recordings I have on the shelves or the couple of others I streamed it is clear to me that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that just because a work has a reputation as being 'popular', 'overplayed' a 'warhorse' or whatever if it is great music it should be regarded as such - lets not get too snotty about it and just enjoy it.

All the recordings I listened to did the piece justice but I enjoyed two just a tad more - the Pražák Quartet & the Talich's '76 recording.


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## Knorf

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ...I still want to argue that, at least in some ways, his music contributed to our understanding of the "American sound."


This is indisputably true. 

Let's not forget, except for the indigenous peoples of the North American continent, all other elements of culture are imported from Europe, Asia, and Africa, but recombined and regenerated into new styles and forms. Dvořák was a big part of this, beyond any doubt. His influence on what at least classical music from America sounds like (or "is supposed to sound like") persists to this day in both concert music and film scores.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Here is how the schedule will shape up for this round. *Mandryka *will choose next...

Mandryka
Josquin13
Bwv 1080
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Malx
starthrower
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## hammeredklavier

"The theme of the second movement is the one that interpreters have most tried to associate with a Negro spiritual or with an American Indian tune."

"Dvořák quoted in the third movement, measures 21–24, a bird that he believed was a scarlet tanager, an American songbird. The song appears as a high, interrupting strain in the first violin part. Dvořák was annoyed by this bird's insistent chattering, and transcribed its song in his notebook. American ornithologist Ted Floyd showed in 2016 that the bird quoted by Dvořák likely was not a scarlet tanager; instead, the bird was probably a red-eyed vireo, another American songbird."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._12_(Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k)#Dvo%C5%99%C3%A1k's_influences


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## Mandryka

Oh, that was a surprise.

In that case, given that I haven’t thought about it, I choose my favourite quartet at the moment - Mozart’s Hoffmeister, K499. The perfect balance between the complexity of the quartets dedicated to Haydn and the relative naivety of the Prussian Quartets.

Have at it.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I absolutely love this quartet. I could listen to Mozart's chamber music all day. Fantastic choice!


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## Philidor

Mandryka said:


> Mozart’s Hoffmeister, K499


My favourite among the post-Haydn quartets. Thank you much, great choice from my perspective!

(And it is the next one in my Armida-walkthrough ...)


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## Mandryka

Here’s a performance which I’ve become addicted to


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## Merl

You swine, Mandryka, you know I was gonna blog the last of the Prussians while I was away in Spain (I've got about 30 recordings on my phone). Now I'll just have to listen to the Hoff instead. Damn you. 😣


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## Carmina Banana

A quick comment about the Dvorak before moving to the Mozart:

I enjoyed revisiting this wonderful, heartwarming piece and I fell in love with the recording by the Prazak Quartet. It was less about in-your-face playing or heart-on-the sleeve emoting and more about a veiled nostalgia giving way to a teasing playfulness. Accents. They actually do them. 

As for the “American” part of this work. I would just like to say that composers should be free to be influenced by something and not held to the same scrutiny regarding accuracy as that of a musicologist. For instance, listening to a 20th century French composer’s take on American jazz is always fun but would probably not be mistaken for the real thing. Music that is a hybrid of styles and influences is often a unique and wonderful thing itself. I worry sometimes that there is too much of a stay-in-your-lane mentality now. 

Onward to Mozart, someone who knew a thing or two and styles and influences.


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## HerbertNorman

Just a great pick, one of the best Mozart composed imo


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## Mandryka

This article helped me to listen to the 4th movement a bit more appreciatively 









The charm of the unsettling. A special autograph correction of Mozart’s in the finale of the F-major string quartet K. 590






www.henle.de


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> This article helped me to listen to the 4th movement a bit more appreciatively
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The charm of the unsettling. A special autograph correction of Mozart’s in the finale of the F-major string quartet K. 590
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.henle.de


I'm assuming this was for me, Mandryka (thanks btw) and has nothing to do with this week's choice of the Hoffmeister.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I'm assuming this was for me, Mandryka (thanks btw) and has nothing to do with this week's choice of the Hoffmeister.


Ah yes.


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## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> You swine, Mandryka, you know I was gonna blog the last of the Prussians while I was away in Spain (I've got about 30 recordings on my phone). Now I'll just have to listen to the Hoff instead. Damn you. 😣


Oh, that sounds like a real hardship, Merl ...


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## Mandryka

When on holiday in Spain, follow the bear


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## Philidor

I'd prefer some Tempranillo ...


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## hammeredklavier

I think one of things that makes this work unique among Mozart's mature string quartets is the melodic motive of repeated notes and "spikes" (shaped like heartbeat fluctuations).









I. www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6YQM87WgR8&t=2m24s










III. www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6YQM87WgR8&t=12m17s










IV. www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6YQM87WgR8&t=20m40s



Also, compare the grace notes and leaps in








I. www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6YQM87WgR8&t=2m24s










II. www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6YQM87WgR8&t=8m33s


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## SearsPoncho

Mandryka said:


> When on holiday in Spain, follow the bear


Now I'm craving a beer, among other things.


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## Merl

I think I've had enough for one day.


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## Malx

Merl said:


> I think I've had enough for one day.


The censor bots are posted missing just when they are needed .


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## Merl

Thanks to my catsitter for sending over pictures of my old notes. Rounded up all the recordings I could hear (ill pick the last couple up when I get home and play the Salomon on cd and Netherlands SQ from the HD). There's some beautiful recordings of the Hoffmeister, fortunately. If anyone is interested there's a blog link below. 









Mozart - String Quartet 20 'Hoffmeister' K499...


The Quartet in D major K. 499 was composed in 1786 and dedicated to Mozart’s friend and fellow Freemason, tge music publisher and composer Franz Anton Hoffmeister. For me, it's a quartet that gets weightier with each movement. The first movement Allegretto is light and opens with a gentle...




www.talkclassical.com


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## SearsPoncho

I've been enjoying the Hoff (don't hassle the Hoff!) this week. The Alban Berg Quartet in a set with this week's quartet, the "Haydn quartets" and the "Prussian quartets." As usual, I've been listening to other works by this week's composer, which is easy because I listen to Mozart daily. The other Mozart I heard this week were some Violin Sonatas, Flute Quartets and a Piano Trio. Always extremely satisfying.


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## Mandryka

One unusually symphonic one is Mosaïques, their Mozart seems so different from their Haydn.


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## Kreisler jr

It's probably not the first recording of the piece, but there is a nice 1934 recording with the Budapest Qt. on a Biddulph CD or maybe elsewhere. It's fast (although not as manic as the finale of K 465 on the same disc), lean and lyrical and the sound is quite listenable.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I truly don't think it's possible to even approximate the experience of Mozart's music at its best in words, so I'll just say that I'm deeply impressed by how this music spills forth in a miraculous unbroken stream that is not only consistently interesting, but incredibly technically accomplished—so much glorious counterpoint! There are times when Mozart leaves me feeling a little cold with his suave, perfectly "rational" Enlightenment facade, but also times like this when he has the effect of picking up the scattered pieces of my mind and making me believe in order and proportion once more. This may be one of my favorite quartets of all.

I've spoken to Josquin13 via PM, and he should be ready to make a choice on Sunday. Current schedule:

Josquin13
Bwv 1080
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Malx
starthrower
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## Carmina Banana

ABC: I think you have hit the nail on the head with the bit about the “suave, perfectly ‘rational’ Enlightenment facade.” I was thinking about the challenges of performing Mozart and part of that involves that annoying habit Mozart has a making things perfect. Performers, myself included, like to struggle and overcome difficulties, grapple with things, envelope ourselves in intense emotions, etc. In some ways it is harder to present something simply and elegantly than it is to add that extra oomph. 

However, it is naive to say one must get out of the way of the music. We all bring baggage (for want of a better term) with us into the recital hall or recording studio—the way we were taught, the influences of other musicians living and dead, things we have read, etc. I don’t believe there is any point in saying we should take ourselves out of the equation, but I believe there is value in trying to question our values and ask whether they serve Mozart. 

For instance, this short third movement is a menuetto, a little dance diversion. But there is the temptation for some to make big lyrical phrases, de-emphasize the downbeats and move it farther from a dance and closer to a profound communion with the angels above. 

On the other hand, if we play like a wooden, authentic-bot, we will only make Mozart a lifeless relic. 

I guess that is why I often hear the mantra: Mozart is hard!


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## Mandryka

The Hoffmeister can have a suave facade, for example, I think ABQ play it like that. The problem for me with that approach is that the music isn’t particularly harmonically bold, so the smooth suave approach ends up, for me, sounding rather sedate.

What I prefer is a style which phrases the music incisively - the boldness, the life, comes from the rhythms and the phrasing. That’s one of the reasons I enjoy the Juilliard - but I can see that, for someone who is attached to the “suave facade” view of Mozartian classicism, Juilliard would appear ungraceful.


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## Kreisler jr

This quartet used to be my favorite of Mozart's 15 years ago or so. 
Not really anymore, in fact it left me a bit cold when listening to it during this week. Nevertheless, I probably liked the Alban-Berg-Q, on Teldec best... but I have not yet heard that live Juilliard. The others I heard were Budapest, Smetana/BBC live, these two both a bit compromised by sound but as I wrote above I still liked the Budapest for a historical recording. Then the Hagen who appeared to me in their "perfectionist but cold mode". The ABQ is not adventurous but they seem to have a way that just feels "natural" and a beautiful sound


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## SearsPoncho

The ABQ on Teldec is the best I've heard. There are some sections where the music almost seems mired in the mid-lower ranges, and bad performances can sound muddy. Clarity is crucial, and the best performances, such as the ABQ, do something which is usually, and correctly, discouraged in Mozart: to add a little of themselves and their personalities to the music. In this one, I believe it's crucial to explore a variety of different timbre and textures, emphasize a larger than usual dynamic range, and play with hitting accents hard, as well as cruising casually, when appropriate. When done as well as the ABQ, that clarity shines and one can enjoy the music. 

I believe some of the previous comments inadvertently describe Mozart strengths: his music is perfect and natural, like fish swimming in a stream or, quite frankly, breathing. Because of these strengths, Mozart is perhaps the only composer where I cannot tolerate mistakes or poor intonation. However, I disagree with the assertion that this makes Mozart performance robotic or mechanical. I find the opposite to be true: I have played my share of Mozart and found that it is imbued with such a lovely, honest humanity, that it requires a sensitive musician who can recognize this and just play the music as well and lovingly as possible. It's not as if phrasing, balance and transparency go down the drain just because the music is perfect - it does not play itself. It's unusual when one encounters a Mozart composition like the Hoff, which does benefit from some extra intervention, as long as it's tastefully done.


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## Mandryka

If we think of the last 10 quartets, would anyone here say that the Hoffmeister is the weakest of the bunch? Not a runt, not a dud, but somehow not as exciting as what comes before and not as beautiful and harmonically interesting as what comes afterwards?

I’m afraid this is what I felt listening to ABQ! But not so listening to Juilliard live and The Netherlands Quartet and Belcea.

In some ways the Hoffmeister makes me think of The Hunt Quartet (forget the number!) - I’ve also got reservations about that one.


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## Malx

Having read the posts above I'm conflicted to some degree - I played the three recordings I have on my shelves (once I realised I had three) the ABQ in both the EMI and Teldec recordings plus the Chilingirian. Immediately I thought the Chillies a bit on the dull side and I had a clear preference for the Teldec ABQ disc - I don't hear the ABQ recordings as 'sedate' but maybe thats because I need to broaden my scope of listening, the ABQ EMI recording has a bit more oompf to it, but not a lot, and somehow sounds a little less Mozartian as a result. Is this because Mozart's writing is so pure and technically assured that to try and add some personality to the performance almost detracts from the piece - I don't have a clue!
I haven't spent much time searching around for alternative recordings of Mozart quartets, I wonder is this because if the notes written are simply played well that is enough - the works don't need that extra push??
I then streamed the Quatuor Mosaiques on period instruments who do manage to make the piece a little different without changing the overall 'feel' again is this because Mozart was a master of his craft.
Maybe I need to delve deeper into Mozart's music - there are obviously more depths to be explored than I have previously imagined.

Definitely a Johnny Nash moment for me - more questions than answers.


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## Josquin13

Hi everyone. I'll explain my absence from the thread tomorrow when I post my pick for the coming week. In the meantime, I wanted to briefly mention some of my most treasured recordings of this week's quartet, since it's a favorite work of mine,

But first, in response to Mandryka's last question, I wanted to say that I have no such reservations about any of Mozart's 10 "Great" String Quartets. On the contrary, I believe the super genius (let's face it) that created them goes well beyond the full grasp of mere mortals, seriously, including many of your more average string quartet groups, whose depth of humanity isn't going to be nearly as evolved as Mozart's. In other words, any such doubts are going to be more attributable to insufficient performances or performance style rather than anything else. So, whether people prefer one work over another becomes irrelevant, at least to me, because Mozart's just not your average genius, but something much more. Rather, he's on a higher level than most other post-Renaissance composers, as I see it, even if he may have been a twit in other aspects of his life (which I partly doubt).

With that said, musically, I find Quartetto Italiano to be deeply satisfying in Mozart's final 4 Quartets, including the "Hoffmeister"--which, IMO, tend to get underrated in comparison to his 6 Quartets dedicated to Haydn. For me, it's a sublime work, with few equals outside of Mozart's opus. I also feel strongly that the Italianos reached their pinnacle as a group in their recordings of Mozart's 4 last Quartets (along with their recordings of Beethoven's Late Quartets). In other words, HIP or not, this is the performance that I'd take with me to my desert island, if I were pressed to pick just one:






However, for other less important reasons, perhaps, I also like the period group Quatour Mosaîques & the Chillingirian Quartet in this music, too:











Lastly, I like the Alban Berg Quartet on Teldec, as well, but maybe a bit less well. Though it should be pointed out that the Bergs recorded the 'Hoffmeister' twice, first for Teldec in the 1970s (analogue) and secondly for EMI (digital), & I don't know the later EMI recording. While I am inclined to agree with some of Mandryka's comments above, nevertheless, the Bergs were an undeniably great quartet in those days,






I'll be back tomorrow.


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## Carmina Banana

After reading some comments about the ABQ recording from the 70s, I gave it a listen. Darn it! I want to be the guy who likes the understated, historically accurate recordings by smart young groups not the guy who listens to romantic old-fashion approaches to Mozart. However, I am completely, one hundred percent in love with this recording. 

Calling it romantic is probably not fair. Let’s just say they go for it for boldly, consistently and unapologetically. This is great music making no matter what era is is from.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I thought I was alone in my love for the Hoffmeister, but no then! I only listened to AB and Belcea this week, but have them all with the Hagens. It would also be my choice for this thread from my favorite composer.


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## Merl

I like the Hoff a lot. If you read my blog there were some really strong candidates at the top and one that really rocketed in my esteem was the Belcea recording. I only recalled hearing it once, previously, but was really impressed with their bolder attacks, excellent phrasing and interpretive choices. The Alexander Quartet's late Mozart has really surprised me up to now. I just finished my delayed Mozart SQ23 blog yesterday and the Alexander absolutely nail that one too.


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## Kreisler jr

Please don't use the same nickname as for that mediocre singer/actor... 
As I said, it used to be my favorite Mozart quartet and I still like it considerably. It is a bit of stepchild, maybe even more so since one can squeeze the last 3 quartets on one disc. I don't think it is any weaker. It's not as charmingly melodic as K 575 and 589 (nevertheless, I'd guess the latter is probably even more of a stepchild) neither as obviously ambitious as some of the "Haydn" set. It has sometimes been associated with "Figaro" and one phrase in the 1st mvmt reminds me of "poco contante, poco contante" in "Non piu andrai". In other ways it seems a bit similar to the concert K 503 from about the same time, that especially the 1st movement is dominated by rather "commonplace" themes.


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## Josquin13

Hello all, again. It’s nice to be back. I hope everyone is well. I’ve not been on TC much in recent months due to worsening problems with my computer keyboard, which I’ve yet to get fixed. (The truth is I need a new computer, but Apple computers cost big $$$.) As a result, it’s been very difficult for me to have conversations here because I have to manually insert a whole bunch of letters that no longer function on my keyboard, which becomes painstakingly tedious. Hence, I’ll be giving mostly short replies throughout the week, I expect.

(The other problem has been that when I've taken the time to write out a substantial post on TC, the infernal "save draft" function on this website has proven erratic & unreliable: to the extent that it has erased several lengthy posts that I'd written--such as a time consuming but valuable guide to the best recordings of the complete masses of Josquin Desprez, which proved extremely frustrating; while, another time, I recall writing a grateful reply to Mandryka for his recommendation of a Serkin/Toscanni recording of a Mozart Piano Concerto & once again, my reply got axed by TC's "save draft" function, sorry Mandryka. Etc., etc..

So, as a result, it may have appeared that I was ignoring people or not bothering to reply, but in truth, due to my keyboard issues, I simply haven't had the time or energy to rewrite entire posts over again that TC's "save draft" function has erased. (Though of course I'm not using that dreadful function anymore.) So, my apologies to anyone that I've not courteously replied to in recent months. Fortunately, over this past week, I had a little more time on my hands, so when ACB contacted me to remind me that it was my 'bi-annual' turn here, I decided to take part. & btw, sorry for the long-windedness, but I wanted to get that out.)

In any event, my choice for the coming week is a work composed for string quartet by the contemporary Swedish composer Anders Hillborg, entitled “Kongsgaard Variations”. Hillborg was commissioned to write the piece by John Kongsgaard, the owner of the Arietta winery in California (which is named after the 2nd movement of Beethoven’s Op. 111). Here is some background information, though the review below is for Hillborg’s later orchestral version of the work (which I don't think is quite as effective...?),

Kongsgaard Variations (for string quartet) (Anders Hillborg)

https://seenandheard-international....with-bronfmans-beethoven-piano-concerto-no-3/

To date, I know of two recordings of the Kongsgaard Variations: one is by the Calder Quartet, which is my preferred performance, and the second is by the Stenhammar Quartet, which is excellent, as well. (So, it seems that once again, I’ve given Merl an easier week.)

Calder Quartet:





Stenhammar Quartet:





I think it’s probably best that people have a virgin encounter with the music first, before I follow with my notes & thoughts on the piece. Plus, I’m getting tired of inserting letters at the moment. So, I’ll post again shortly.

P.S. By the way, the other three quartets that I considered for the week were Malcolm Arnold’s String Quartet No. 2, which has a beautiful Andante movement & is one of Arnold’s better works I think, William Schuman’s String Quartet No. 5, & John Harbison’s String Quartet No. 2 (which I found brilliant in parts, but frustratingly erratic), if those works interest anyone.


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## Merl

Sorry to hear about your continued computer issues, Jos but it's good to have you back even if it's in a limited capacity. I always enjoy your highly informative posts. Interesting choice for this week and one that's totally new to me (but I have heard of Hillborg from somewhere). Thanks for a week's relative rest. I've been listening to late Mozart quartets all the past month and still have one blog to put up so I can complete the Prussians (coming soon) .


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## SearsPoncho

Josquin - Some tall, dark and handsome man already selected Arnold's 2nd.  If you like Serkin with Toscanini, you'll really love a cd called: Legendary Interpretations: Mozart, Rudolf Serkin, Piano Concertos. Szell is kind of like Toscanini, but his recordings are in stereo. It's a 3-cd set with PCs 12, 14, 17, 19, 20, 27 and some Rondos. I believe Szell conducts 17, 19 & 20. Ormandy conducts 27. Alexander Schneider conducts the rest. I got it because I used to have a cassette with the Serkin/Szell 20 (Columbia Symphony) and the Serkin/Ormandy 27 (Philadelphia Orchestra, of course). It remains the single best Mozart recording I ever purchased (in 1988!), and that means a lot coming from a Mozart maniac, like myself. It is one of the pillars of my desert island stack.

Never heard this week's recording. Looking forward to it...from one former Philly boy to another.


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## Josquin13

Merl,

Thanks for the kind words. I've missed chatting with you, too.

I read your blog on the 'Hoffmeister' with interest, & thanks for it. I was relieved to see that Quartetto Italiano made it into your top tier. Phew! So, maybe I don't need to go looking for a new desert island pick, after all. The four late ones comprise some of my very favorite quartets (along with the 'Dissonance'), so I look forward to reading the rest of your blog on the 'Prussians'.

As for Hillborg, he has strong imagination (just have listen to his recent wild Violin Concerto No. 2 on Youtube, played by Lisa Batiashvili), & he's evolving as a composer in interesting ways, & knows how to write for a full orchestra (for example, you might have a listen to his piece, "Liquid Marble" +/or "The Sirens" on youtube, if interested). Plus, he looks like one of Bjorn Borg's distant or maybe not so distant cousins (note the 1970s Viking hairstyle.)


















SearsPoncho,

Yes!, I have all those Serkin Mozart recordings that you mention, & totally agree with you--from one Mozart maniac to another. I love the way Serkin played Mozart (& Beethoven). Nice to hear from you. (Are you watching the 5-0 Eagles tonight against the Cowgirls?)

P.S. I completely missed that Arnold's 2nd SQ had been done. (Drat.) Well, it's a good thing I didn't choose it.


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## SearsPoncho

Josquin: Of course I'm watching the Eagles play that horrible team with the star on its helmets.


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## HerbertNorman

NFL fan here too , I agree about the team with the stars on the helmets...but tbh I'm on other forums to discuss american football 
Interesting choice @Josquin13 ! Another new one to get to know for me...look forward to it!

Listening to so many Mozart SQ's the last week was a nice experience , been awhile since the Salzburg genius was omnipresent in the "playlist" ! I particularly enjoy the Hagen Quartet's recording , but there were a few I hadn't listened to before (eg the Mosaïques) which was fun.


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## Philidor

After the audition with the Quatuor Mosaïques, I found my favorites for KV 499.

As many in this thread I tend to prefer the ABQ on Teldec. In good company with the Quartetto Italiano, the Klenkes and - new - the Armida Quartet. I found the Quatuor Mosaïques disappointing, as sometimes.


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## Philidor

The Hillborg ... nice surprise in the end!

I found some information, but will not share it in order not to spoil the unexpected ending ...

... everyone guessing it before: I'll take my hat off to you ...

By the way: Nice choice!

(the variations remind me "Det är en ros utsprungen" by Jan Sandström, although completely different ...)


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## hammeredklavier

Philidor said:


> After the audition with the Quatuor Mosaïques, I found my favorites for KV 499.


There's a sense of gravity in their performance that I find satisfactory. (eg. their K.421/iv doesn't sound frivolously light, unlike some other quartet groups')


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## Merl

Philidor said:


> The Hillborg ... nice surprise in the end!
> 
> I found some information, but will not share ir in order not to spoil the unexpected ending ...
> 
> ... everyone guessing it before: I'll take my hat off to you ...
> 
> By the way: Nice choice!
> 
> (the variations remind me "Det är en ros utsprungen" by Jan Sandström, although completely different ...)


Haha. I wondered what Philidor was getting at. After listening I understand. Clever choice, Jos. I didn't spoil it by reading the notes and dived in. A very enjoyable piece and perfect to wake up to this morning. Easy to understand the Calder Quartet's programming on their disc, now. Similarly I know why the name Hillborg was familiar to me too as I listened to both those Calder Quartet recordings, surrounding the Hillborg, when I did my Beethoven blogs for string quartets 3 & 14 (neither made the top lists but they were good). Btw, I already have a definite preference for one of the recordings on first listen.


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## sbmonty

What a great piece! Really enjoyed the ending. Nice choice Jos.
By the way, I'm disappointed that you lost your posting on the Josquin masses. I've turned my attention to these works lately. I would have thoroughly enjoyed your insights. I've collected the Tallis Scholars complete cycle just recently.


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## Merl

Really enjoying the Hillborg having listened to it 2 or 3 times today (both accounts)
I had a definite preference for one recording but I'll keep schtum on that until nearer the end of the week. It's a really interesting and engaging piece, Jos, so thanks for introducing me to it. 🎻 🎻🍷


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## Josquin13

I'm pleased that everyone is enjoying the Hillborg. As you can imagine, I didn't want to spoil the subject of the variations until people had heard the piece. But I do have some thoughts on it. So, I'll post again tomorrow or Friday.

sbmonty--I plan to redo my guide to recordings of Josquin's Masses at some point, but I may tackle the list more piecemeal in the future, and consider each mass one at a time, rather than writing one long post. If I do, or when I do, I'll drop you a note.


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## HerbertNorman

Josquin13 said:


> I'm pleased that everyone is enjoying the Hillborg. As you can imagine, I didn't want to spoil the subject of the variations until people had heard the piece. But I do have some thoughts on it. So, I'll post again tomorrow or Friday.


It seems we surely are @Josquin13 , I really am grateful to discover yet a new piece and I like it. 
There's a lot to be discovered in the piece and I can see why it was recorded in combination with the Beethoven String Quartets op. 18 and op.131 . In between both on the CD , it serves as a nice example of modern classical music and the way it is "rooted". It also shows how relevant the music of Beethoven still is to the modern composer. Very interesting, for example the high pitched violin opening of the Hillborg contrasted by the lower pitched opening in the Beethoven op.131.


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## StevehamNY

Josquin13 said:


> I'm pleased that everyone is enjoying the Hillborg. As you can imagine, I didn't want to spoil the subject of the variations until people had heard the piece. But I do have some thoughts on it. So, I'll post again tomorrow or Friday.


I am VERY much liking this piece, @Josquin13! Never heard of the composer before, so thanks for bringing it!

As far as the subject is concerned, I may be going a little off the reservation here but my ears are hearing what my ears are hearing, no joke. Using the Calder timings, I am hearing about eight minutes of slow seduction followed by six minutes of straight-up sex.

Seriously, try listening to it right now and tell me you don't hear the same thing.


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## Merl

Steve, you mucky sod! 8 minutes of foreplay! Does that include cleaning your teeth, shutting the curtains and chucking the cats out of the room? Lol. I've blogged my thoughts on this one in the link below if anyone is interested. A fine quartet. Thanks Jos.









Hillborg - Kongsgaard Variations (SQ review)


Anders Hillborg composed the Kongsgaard Variations in 2006 using the Arietta theme from the manuscript of Beethoven’s last piano sonata, No. 32 as his inspiration and dedicating the quartet to wine producers John and Maggy Kongsgaard (who use a few bars of the Arietta theme on the label of their...




www.talkclassical.com


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## SearsPoncho

Josquin,

The Hillborg was awesome! I was mesmerized by the peaceful, meditative music (Steve, we must have different ideas about "getting it on" ) and then the surprise, which I was expecting, but still came out as a surprise which put a huge smile on my face. There's a Santana song called Make Somebody Happy. Well, you made me happy after a tough day. Thanks. By the way, the cellist of the Calder Quartet has a tone and expressiveness to die for, and it matches his quartet mates. I also liked that pulsing effect, where the volume swells up a few times. It reminded me of something electric guitarists, most notably Eddie Van Halen, do when they fret a note hard with the left hand while the volume is on 0, and then turn the volume up to create a volume swell. Anyhoo, it was very enjoyable, and it had a kicker of an ending.

P.S. Gotta check out if that wine is still available.


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## Josquin13

I'm pleased to hear that you liked the piece, SearsPoncho, & that it lightened up your tough day.

I assume that everyone participating in the thread this week now knows that Hillborg’s “Kongsgaard Variations” are inspired by the Arietta theme in Beethoven’s final piano sonata, his Op. 111. Which is in itself a movement that Beethoven composed from his heart, as a deeply felt reminiscence or remembrance, i.e., an impassioned elegy (some have even called it a “requiem”) for the only woman that he ever truly loved--his “immortal beloved”: Which recent scholarship has proven was Josephine Brunsvik, who had died that year at the young age of 42. Indeed, connections have been found between the Arietta movement and the “Josephine” theme in Beethoven’s Andante favori.

With that in mind, it’s not too difficult to see that Beethoven’s music is both elegiac and deeply sorrowful, & at the same time it is also a passionate expression of the great love that he felt for the only woman that had ever captured his heart & undying devotion.

Of course, I don’t know if Hillborg understands that this music is an intense reminiscence about Josephine, he may or may not. But to my ears, the content of the Arietta theme in his variations does sound more moving, emotional & poignant when it is played by a string quartet, rather than on a solo piano. So, I suspect that to have even had such an idea, Hillborg does understand the elegiac, impassioned content of Beethoven’s music. & especially when I consider the way in which the Arietta theme emerges towards the end of the piece, even if it is only intuitively on Hillborg’s part. In other words, I found Beethoven's Arietta theme to to be even more moving when played by 4 stringed instruments.

In contrast, I don’t find that many pianists play Beethoven’s movement with the same degree of insight that the Calder Quartet brings to the theme in Hillborg’s variations; which, as noted, may simply be more effective when heard on strings. For example, I don’t feel that Sviatoslav Richter fully understands the Arietta movement on his Philips recording of Op. 111. Which is saying something, because Richter was otherwise a great Beethoven pianist, and especially in the late sonatas. However, one pianist that does get this movement, in my estimation, is the octogenarian Rudolf Serkin at his final Carnegie Hall concert given in 1987 (on DG). Granted, Serkin was technically past his prime by this stage of his career, nevertheless, with a lifetime of playing this music behind him, on that night Serkin penetrated the core meaning of Beethoven’s Arietta movement with more insight than most other pianists I’ve heard,






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._32_(Beethoven)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Beloved
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_Brunsvik

Of particular interest from Wikipedia is the following quote on Josephine’s early death,

“Josephine's life ended in increasing agony and misery: the four Deym children, now teenagers, went their own ways (the boys joined the military, to the horror of their bed-ridden mother[30]), the three daughters of the marriage with Stackelberg were gone, sister Therese withdrew, brother Franz stopped sending money, as did mother Anna who wrote Josephine a letter telling her that it was all her own fault.

Countess Josephine von Brunsvik died on 31 March 1821, at age 42. During this year, Beethoven composed his very last Piano Sonatas No. 31 (Op. 110) and No. 32 (Op. 111), described as 'like requiems' by musicologists, with discernible reminiscences to "Josephine's Theme", the _Andante favori_, which itself has been discerned to repeatedly chant _Jo-se-phi-ne_.”

—Beethoven: Andante favori in F Major, WoO 57 · played by Vladimir Ashkenazy: 




—Andante favori in F Major, WoO 57 · played by Sviatoslav Richter: 



.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This was certainly an interesting listen, but I felt that the contrast between tonality and modernist elements was not fully satisfying; running up against each other in odd and seemingly forced ways. Nonetheless, the piece is a nicely crafted miniature narrative with effective high points, and it was extremely surprising yet oddly moving and comforting to hear the Arietta theme at the end. Scandinavian composers often have a distinctive ruggedly lyrical sound, if that makes sense, and Hillborg fits well into that tradition. As usual, I appreciate your off the beaten path choice, Josquin!

*Bwv 1080 *has not been seen for a while here, but if you're still around, you're up next.

Bwv 1080
sbmonty
Merl
Knorf
Malx
starthrower
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## Malx

Another work I had no experience of, I had heard a few of Hillborg's orchestral pieces but none of his smaller scale works. 
Josquin has, with great detail and insight as usual, pointed out the Beethoven connection which was not too great a surprise given the programming of the Calder disc.After a few listens to both recordings, like ACB, much as I found the piece very interesting the mix of styles didn't entirely gel for me.
I really couldn't pick a preference between the performances both had merit - a really interesting selection Jos' but one I'm still in two minds about


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## Bwv 1080

Perhaps keeping with a theme of Beethoven references, my pick (and triumphant return to the thread) is Schnittke’s 3rd. The piece uses quotations from Orlando di Lassus, Beethoven (which piece should be obvious to everyone here) and the Shostakovich motiv


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## Philidor

Schnittke 3? Oh yes, this was my first encounter with Schnittke, some radio broadcast featuring the Kronos Quartet's recording as CD of the week ... must have been at the end of the 1990s ...

Great choice!


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## Merl

Not familiar with much Schnittke, apart from the 10 Symphonies box I have upstairs, so this should be interesting. Nice choice.


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## HerbertNorman

I got into the Schnittke SQs a few years back after I had just joined TC ... They are very good imo and I really look forward to listening to this one . Good choice!!!


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## Bwv 1080

From the Quatuor Molinari liner notes:



> Schnittke’s claim to be Russian rests on an accident of history. After acceding to the throne of Russia in 1762, Catherine II, née the Princess of Anhalt-Zerbst, encour- aged the colonization of several Russian territories. As a result, many Germans settled on the banks of the Volga. In 1924, Lenin created the Volga German Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. It was abolished in 1941 by Stalin when, in the middle of the Second World War, Hitler’s troops began to invade Russia. It was in Engels, the capital of this German enclave in the USSR, southeast of Moscow, that Alfred Schnittke was born, in 1934. His mother was a Catholic of German origin. Because his father was a German Jew, his parents were exempted from the deportation ordered by Stalin. Schnittke was thus raised on Russian soil, except for the two years he spent in Vienna with his family between 1946 and 1948. “Like my German forebears,” he told his biographer Alexander Ivashkin, “I live in Russia. I can speak and write Russian far better than German. But I am not Russian.” …
> 
> From the beginning of the 1960s, Schnittke’s music, though relegated to the side- lines for being ‘non-official’ and too western by the Union of Composers, was appreciated by the public, particularly his film scores, and played by the great virtu- osos of his country. Twenty years later his purgatory ended; he was hailed worldwide as Shostakovich’s successor and, along with Edison Denisov and Sofia Gubaidulina, as one of the pillars of the new Soviet music.
> Schnittke was very attracted by the religion and music of the Orthodox Church, and followed in Mahler’s footsteps by converting to Catholicism in 1982. “My Jewish half gives me no peace,” he said. “I know none of the three Jewish languages — but I look like a typical Jew.”


On the 3rd SQ


> Schnittke composed his third string quartet in 1983. It was commissioned by the Society for New Music, Mannheim (Germany) and first performed by the Hungarian quartet Eder. In this work, more tonal than his previous quartets, Schnittke uses a pro- cedure he was fond of and of which he gave us a foretaste in the second quartet: a kind of polystylistic collage. In its first eight measures, the first movement quotes, in succession, the Stabat mater of Roland de Lassus, the Grosse Fuge of Beethoven, and the notes D-Eb-C-B or, in German nomenclature D-S-C-H, the musical signature which Dmitri Shostakovitch incorporated in several of his works (S-C-H is the equivalent of Ш, the single letter of the Cyrillic alphabet with which his family name begins). On top of these musical, contrapuntal, and harmonic borrowing, in homage to three great fig- ures in the history of music, Schnittke superimposed his very personal language, comprised of glissandi, disintegrations, trembling trills, atonal elements, and plays of nuance.
> The Agitato, with its neoclassical sound, irresistibly evokes a wild Beethoven scherzo. The last movement, Pesante, introduces a new, more rustic theme alluding equally to Mahler and to Shostakovich. Against a background of fifths, tonal scales, chromati- cism, and dissonant chords, all the preceding themes are heard and then disintegrate in an astonishing variety of nuances and attacks.


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## starthrower

I'm a big fan of the Borodin recording on Virgin Classics. It also includes the piano quintet, and the piano quartet constructed from Mahler's sketches. 
Alfred Schnittke - String Quartet No. 3 (w/ score) (1983) - YouTube


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## maestro267

Oh I am looking forward to this! Excellent choice!


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## Bwv 1080

Here is a map of the Volga German region that became a SSR under Lenin. Schnittke was born in Engles (Petrovsk). This is far to the SE of Moscow, nearly to the border of Kazakhstan


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## Merl

Last time we did a Schnittke Quartet (no.2) it didn't resonate with me. After playing this one before I'm way more enthusiastic. Interesting work. Perhaps I need to go back and listen to #2 again (after I've listened to this one extensively).


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## Mandryka

So here's Schnittke's defence of polystylism in the 1971 paper _Polystylistic Tendencies in Modern Music_. I was prompted to dig it out because, listening to the quartet, I kind of asked myself: what's the point of this? I haven't yet found the answer. 

_But in spite of all the complications and possible dangers of the polystylistic method, its merits are now obvious. It widens the range of expressive possibilities, it allows for the integration of “low” and “high” styles, of the “banal” and the “recherché”—that is, it creates a wider musical world and a general democratization of style. In it we find the documentary objectivity of musical reality, presented not just as something reflected individually but as an actual quotation (in the third part of Berio’s symphony we hear an ominous apocalyptic reminder of our generation’s responsibility for the fate of the world, expressed by means of a collage of quotations, of musical “documents” from various ages—reminding one of cinema advertising in the 1970s). And finally it creates new possibilities for the musical dramatization of “eternal” questions—of war and peace, life and death._


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## Knorf

I find this to be by far the weakest of Schnittke's four quartets (and for me, the fourth is the true masterpiece.) I personally find Schnittke's "polystylism" much more convincing when the quotations are not quite so blatant, and actually I'm not that convinced even when they aren't.

By the way, Bernd Alois Zimmermann did the blatant quotations collage thing much, much more skillfully and creatively, in my opinion.

Hillborg's Beethoven quotations usage from his quartet last week I also found more interesting and distinctive than this.

Usually I bow out of this thread when I don't have anything nice to say, but I feel like my participation has been a bit thin, so negative it is for this one. Apologies.

Don't let me stop anyone from liking it, though, if you do. I will say that you should really investigate Zimmermann's work if you find the polystylism or quotation collage elements intriguing.


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## Mandryka

I like


Knorf said:


> I find this to be by far the weakest of Schnittke's four quartets (and for me, the fourth is the true masterpiece.) I personally find Schnittke's "polystylism" much more convincing when the quotations are not quite so blatant, and actually I'm not that convinced even when they aren't.


I also have a lot of respect for the fourth.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

I'm in the middle of...glissandi. Oh, polystylism I love. Schnittke became an all-time favorite for the Concerto Grosso no. 1 and Piano concerto after I bought my first cd's ca.1990. For some reason I still feel my favorite music was first heard before I was 20. Maybe I should grow up...


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## Mandryka

Let me make a recommendation: Kapralova Quartet.


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## Malx

I have a couple of recordings of this quartet, the Pacifica & Tale but if truth be told I can't remember when I last played either. This morning I streamed a couple of alternatives, the Kapralova Mandryka suggests above and a 2022 release from the Matangi Quartet (a unknown name for me).


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Let me make a recommendation: Kapralova Quartet.


Found the tempo a little fast and the canon in the first movement (my favorite moment in the piece) seemed rushed,
Kronos, Pacifica and Molinari have been my go to recordings


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Found the tempo a little fast and the canon in the first movement (my favorite moment in the piece) seemed rushed,
> Kronos, Pacifica and Molinari have been my go to recordings


I was really thinking of the 4th -- I'm not so interested in the 3rd.


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> I was really thinking of the 4th -- I'm not so interested in the 3rd.


I get bored when Schnittke sticks to a more or less modernist idiom, like in the 4th. Without the flexibility of the polystylism, he lacks the inventiveness of say, Carter or Lutoslawski. The 3rd is the most widely known and played quartet and one of his great masterpieces like the Requiem, Concerto for Piano & Strings, 3rd & 4th Concerto Grossi or Choral Concerto.


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## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> I get bored when Schnittke sticks to a more or less modernist idiom, like in the 4th. Without the flexibility of the polystylism, he lacks the inventiveness of say, Carter or Lutoslawski. The 3rd is the most widely known and played quartet and one of his great masterpieces like the Requiem, Concerto for Piano & Strings, 3rd & 4th Concerto Grossi or Choral Concerto.


I know what you mean about the 4th, and I felt the same about it, until I found Kapralova, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

By the way, is there really no polystylism in the 4th, or is it just hidden (in which case, one might ask what the point is (again))


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast

I haven't been listening to any music for the past several weeks, getting my a** kicked in my masters, and just not in the right state of mind to listen to any music. But my two cents for this piece are: very good. I really like Schnittke, his quartets, I'm not too familiar with, I have listened to all 4 before, but just on two ocassions, I think the 4th is the best like Knorf says, and as he also says, the quotations are really blatant, and B.A. Zimmermann is the King of quotations, but that doesn't take anything away from Alfred.


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## Malx

I'll keep this simple, its what I'm best qualified to do - I have grown over the week to really enjoy this quartet, probably because there are known reference points for me. The clear references to the DSCH motif and the Grosse Fuge, the less obvious, for me, references to Lassus and the BACH motif, give the piece a foundation upon which Schnittke builds his own thoughts and ideas.
The themes are developed and reworked effectively throughout the three movements. This has woken me up to the use of other composers themes in pieces (polystylism?), and is tempting me to reappraise Berio's Sinfonia which I previously dismissed.
I listened to the two recordings I have plus another four via streaming - the Tale Quartet I have when compared to others is in my view a bit rough and ready, the two that stood out for me are the Pacifica (which I have) and the Danish Quartet.

An enjoyable weeks listening.


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## Merl

I'm with Malx. I've absolutely fell for this quartet hook, line and sinker. Lots of great recordings too. My customary blog is linked below if you want to know what I thought. 









Schnittke - String Quartet 3 (SQ review)


Schnittke's 3rd String Quartet was written in 1983. The opening movement Andante is full of melodic intention with its quotations of small fragments such as a phrase from Stabat Mater by Lassus, the theme of Beethoven’s Grosse Fuge, and the personal monogram of Shostakovich, DSCH. That...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Allegro Con Brio

I do generally like Schnittke. He's one of those put-it-all-out-there-on-the-table visionaries who, like other ambitious patchwork artists like Ives and Mahler (in terms of smashing together various influences into massive edifices), sometimes tries too hard and comes off sounding forced and unconvincing; but more often than not deeply moves and impresses me. I will never forget hearing his Piano Quintet live once. There were some teenagers in the audience who were laughing at the music, but even though I didn't like it at the time, it still exerted a sort of inexplicable magnetic effect on me. His 2nd quartet was one of the great early discoveries of this thread for me during quarantine days, and this one isn't far off in my estimation. Not all of the quotations and stylistic juxtapositions work for me, but overall I really like the ideas he uses and develops throughout, sprinkled generously with very original sounding passages. Lots of lyricism and brutality in equal measure. His music often has a timeless archaic aura despite its frequent unforgiving dissonance, and I do think he will someday be (near) unanimously viewed as one of the great composers of the second half of the century. I think this is the work I would choose to introduce somebody to Schnittke. Very accessible but fulfilling.

Next pick on the agenda goes to *sbmonty.*


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## Merl

Having loved this quartet so much I revisited Schnittke's other quartets as I thought they'd resonate with me, this time. No! Didn't do a thing for me. Oh well, I'll try again in another few years.


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## sbmonty

I really enjoyed the Schnittke No. 3. I have three recordings. The Quatuor Molinari, Danish String Quartet and Pacifica Quartet. All slightly different, but I don't think I really had a preference. I picked up the Molinari recordings after we discussed Schittke's No. 2 some time back. I have bought a lot of recordings as a result of this thread! Great resource. 

I'm going to post a little early if that is alright, as tomorrow my schedule is a little unpredictable. I certainly don't want to derail the Schnittke discussion though. 
I have been flipping back and forth between two works these past few days. I was enchanted by Moeran's String Quartet in A Minor, and planned to choose it for this week's discussion. I stumbled across it earlier this week. Lovely romantic tunes and lots of pastoral passages and folk influences. I hope you give it a listen, or someone chooses it soon, as I found it very appealing. 

But I changed my mind yesterday and decided to submit *Bartok's String Quartet No. 5, SZ 102*. I really like this quartet and want to understand and appreciate Bartok's entire cycle more fully. We have discussed his 3rd and 4th quartets previously, and I hope this week's discussion is equally stimulating. I absolutely love the dark, mildly creepy second movement. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Thanks everyone! Enjoy!


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## Merl

sbmonty said:


> I really enjoyed the Schnittke No. 3. I have three recordings. The Quatuor Molinari, Danish String Quartet and Pacifica Quartet. All slightly different, but I don't think I really had a preference. I picked up the Molinari recordings after we discussed Schittke's No. 2 some time back. I have bought a lot of recordings as a result of this thread! Great resource.
> 
> I'm going to post a little early if that is alright, as tomorrow my schedule is a little unpredictable. I certainly don't want to derail the Schnittke discussion though.
> I have been flipping back and forth between two works these past few days. I was enchanted by Moeran's String Quartet in A Minor, and planned to choose it for this week's discussion. I stumbled across it earlier this week. Lovely romantic tunes and lots of pastoral passages and folk influences. I hope you give it a listen, or someone chooses it soon, as I found it very appealing.
> 
> But I changed my mind yesterday and decided to submit *Bartok's String Quartet No. 5, SZ 102*. I really like this quartet and want to understand and appreciate Bartok's entire cycle more fully. We have discussed his 3rd and 4th quartets previously, and I hope this week's discussion is equally stimulating. I absolutely love the dark, mildly creepy second movement. Looking forward to your thoughts.
> 
> Thanks everyone! Enjoy!


Haha, I almost picked this one, SBM. With over 40 complete cycles plus one-off performances this is going to be a big one. Luckily I started listening earlier.


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## Carmina Banana

I like this piece. The music that I have heard by Schnittke is always bold and dramatic and effective. I have no problem with the overt use of themes in this piece. No reason to be coy about it. 

I was reminded at times of movie scores in which composers use dissonance to make a normally pleasant theme nightmarish. This is often more effective that just newly composing dissonant music. Throw in a nursery rhyme with your atonal licks to really make us know something is horribly wrong. There is more to Schnittke than Hollywood tricks, but I will say it often strikes me as scary.

By extension, I started to think of the romantic notion of thematic transformation (Symphonie Fantastique, for instance). In this case, the music is not by the composer and not so much manipulated by pitch and rhythm as it is by context. Nevertheless, it is still a theme that is transformed to have a different meaning and different effect on the listener. 

Chalk me up as a fan of this piece. I especially love the ending. Chills.


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## Philidor

sbmonty said:


> But I changed my mind yesterday and decided to submit *Bartok's String Quartet No. 5, SZ 102*.


Just listened to it via the well-know DG recording of the Hungarian Quartet. Definitively non-nonsense music, fully individual language, meaningful and, as often with Bartók, with a generously and masterly built architecture "as a whole".

Great choice, sbmonty!


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## Merl

I always find reviewing Bartok recordings the most difficult for a few reasons. Firstly I've really got to be in the mood to play them and I NEVER play them as a cycle (too much Bartok at once does not work well with me) but I can happily compare multiple recordings of the same quartet if I'm in the mood for it. Fortunately I've not played any Bartok quartets since I did my last Bartok blog at least 6 months ago so I'm definitely up for the 5th (it was one of the quartets I'd earmarked to choose for my pick, soon). Secondly, and some may disagree here, but I agree (for once) with a certain infamous critic that no quartet goes into recording these works lightly and so they are rarely poorly _played_. Strangely/poorly recorded, yes, but not often badly played (there are a couple of sets I've still never heard - eg. the rare and very expensive Mari Iwamoto SQ 1966 - hint hint! ). Thirdly, as the the soundworld of these quartets is very different I find that whilst I may find Quartet X really impressive in the 3rd Quartet they aren't as spectacular in one of the others and Quartet Y really nail the 5th. I also have to say that I have a definite preference for quartets 3-5, with 6 following and then 2 and finally 1. Bartok quartet performances seem to polarise listeners more than any other cycle I can think of. Some will swear by the Juilliards (often the first two cycles) whilst others may love the new Ragazze, the Vegh (1 or 2), Takacs (1 or 2), Diotima, Keller, Mikrokosmos, Fine Arts, etc. With around 50 sets in various stages of availability it's so difficult. What's also difficult is that sometimes I'm in the mood for a more rustic, folky performance and sometimes a recording that stresses the more modernist elements whilst other times I want one that balances both. With this in mind I'll try to balance my review at the end of the week to reflect this. What are others' thoughts?


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> Firstly I've really got to be in the mood to play them and I NEVER play them as a cycle (too much Bartok at once does not work well with me)


I admit that these works are hard stuff for me. I agree: Just one quartet at a time. - However, the Emersons performed these six quartets as a cycle, so there is obviously room for improvement on my side. 


Merl said:


> Some will swear by the Juilliards (often the first two cycles) whilst others may love the new Ragazze, the Vegh (1 or 2), Takacs (1 or 2), Diotima, Keller, Mikrokosmos, Fine Arts, etc.


Some time ago I made a walkthrough of "my" cycles. (Far less than 50, even far less than 10. Hungarian, ABQ, Emerson, Hagen, Belcea and some singleton recordings. I made some notes telling me that I preferred ABQ, Hagen and Belcea.


Merl said:


> With around 50 sets in various stages of availability it's so difficult.


These are the real problems if you like classical music. It is good to have a forum where others can understand your problems ... 


Merl said:


> What's also difficult is that sometimes I'm in the mood for a more rustic, folky performance and sometimes a recording that stresses the more modernist elements whilst other times I want one that balances both.


I think, Bartók defines his own language in these works. Do you know any similar music? I don't. Even not Kodály, who comes to mind. Some guy has made the labour of love and analyzed the harmonic rules behind these compositions that Bartók used consciously or inconsciously, but I wasn't yet willing to follow some 80 pages of paper-style density.


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## Bwv 1080

Listening to the Jerusalem Qt and it may be my new favorite, edging out Emerson and Takacs.

Bartok’s music requires both a strong rhythmic drive and lyricism. It was easy weeding out recordings in Idagio simply from a weak opening to the quartet


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## Bwv 1080

Philidor said:


> I admit that these works are hard stuff for me. I agree: Just one quartet at a time. - However, the Emersons performes these six quartets as a cycle, so there is obviously room for improvement on my side.
> 
> Some time ago I made a walkthrough of "my" cycles. (Far less than 50, even far less than 10. Hungarian, ABQ, Emerson, Hagen, Belceaand some singleton recordings. I made some notes telling me that I preferred ABQ, Hagen and Belcea.
> 
> These are the real problems if you like classical music. It is good to have a forum where others can understand your problems ...
> 
> I think, Bartók defines his own language in these works. Do you know any similar music? I don't. Even not Kodály, who comes to mind. Some guy has made the labour of love and analyzed the harmonic rules behind these compositions that Bartók used consciously or inconsciously, but I wasn't yet willing to follow some 80 pages of paper-style density.


He uses many of the same techniques as Debussy, Scriabin, Stravinsky and early Messiaen, but in his own way


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## Philidor

Bwv 1080 said:


> He uses many of the same techniques as Debussy, Scriabin, Stravinsky and early Messiaen, but in his own way


Not in terms of harmonics (understood as: the simultaneous appearance of which notes is ok [as a major chord in 19th century is ok] and which simultaneous appearance needs further justification, e. g. by proceedings of singleton voices), if I got the author right.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> With around 50 sets in various stages of availability it's so difficult.


What is difficult? Finding the time, and the head space? There's no hurry.



Merl said:


> What's also difficult is that sometimes I'm in the mood for a more rustic, folky performance and sometimes a recording that stresses the more modernist elements whilst other times I want one that balances both.


What's so hard about that? It's an opportunity, not a hardship.



Merl said:


> With this in mind I'll try to balance my review at the end of the week to reflect this. What are others' thoughts?


What does balance mean here? Balance what?


Hopefully I can let you have the Mari Iwamoto Quartet soon.


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## StevehamNY

Enjoying this quartet, no surprise, but for me it's gotta be:


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## Malx

Merl said:


> What's also difficult is that sometimes I'm in the mood for a more rustic, folky performance and sometimes a recording that stresses the more modernist elements whilst other times I want one that balances both.


I guess there lies the problem if trying to seek out a primary recommendation for any of Bartok's quartets - what works one day for the listener might not be perfect the next. 
I suspect there may be more than a few vying for the our affections this week as we listen. I have listened to the Keller, Takacs and Tokyo so far this week and my first impressions have immediately contradicted my expectations based on my memory of previous experience.


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## Merl

I like bite in this quartet. It doesn't have to be in your face but sharp attacks work great in the outer and middle movements. Judging from what I've heard up to now I think my views are going to be contentious. There's a few performances here that may sound lovely and well balanced with fine textures but definitely underplay some key movements in this quartet, for me.


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## HenryPenfold

Hard to know where to start with this, here goes......

First of all, what a cracking choice, many thanks sbmonty 👍

In my opinion, Bartok's 6 string quartets not only properly reasserted the string quartet as a medium in the 20th century, they stand second only to Beethoven's in the overall scheme - Papa Haydn, Schubert, Shostakovich, et al notwithstanding.

No single Bartok quartet gives any clues or indications as to what any of the other ones sound like, yet listening to them through (as I often do) there is something palpably totemic about them that I cannot put into words.

The fifth is my current favourite and like all the others, there is a number of different approaches to its performance. It can be taken clinically/literally, folksily/gruff or with beauty, to cite just three approaches with others in between (exemplified by the Emerson, Takacs and Arcadia quartets respectively).

I can never settle on any particular approach to this compositional 'arch' which has two amazing slow movements either side of the central scherzo, with ground-breaking outer-movements. The music seems clearly tonal to my ears, with intermittent atonal references that sometimes confuse me. There are stretches of sheer beauty (e.g. second moment) followed by moments of dissonance.

We are lucky that there are so many available sets that in my opinion range from bloody good to infeasibly excellent. I have about 23 sets and I would not want to be without any one of them. My current go-tos are Vegh 1954, Tokyo DG, Heath and Julliard 1963. This will have changed by next week!


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## Mandryka

Philidor said:


> I admit that these works are hard stuff for me. I agree: Just one quartet at a time. - However, the Emersons performed these six quartets as a cycle, so there is obviously room for improvement on my side.
> 
> Some time ago I made a walkthrough of "my" cycles. (Far less than 50, even far less than 10. Hungarian, ABQ, Emerson, Hagen, Belcea and some singleton recordings. I made some notes telling me that I preferred ABQ, Hagen and Belcea.
> 
> These are the real problems if you like classical music. It is good to have a forum where others can understand your problems ...
> 
> I think, Bartók defines his own language in these works. Do you know any similar music? I don't. Even not Kodály, who comes to mind. Some guy has made the labour of love and analyzed the harmonic rules behind these compositions that Bartók used consciously or inconsciously, but I wasn't yet willing to follow some 80 pages of paper-style density.


I thought Zehetmair’s pairing this with Hindemith 4 was quite imaginative, there were times listening to the Hindemith that I thought, this is not unlike Bartok’s music ( in the second movement for example)


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## Knorf

I adore Bartók's music, and his string quartets in my view are very nearly without peer in the 20th century. I vacillate between the Fourth and the Fifth as my favorite, but I unequivocally love all of them. The Fifth is probably the one I've studied and used as an example the most often in the university-level courses and seminars I have taught.

As for "best" performance or recording, I'm on record as stating that the sadly all-too-common obsession with "best" is totally at odds with everything that art and music actually are. I'm also with Merl in that it's obvious to me that there are a large number of very fine and totally worthy recordings available of this quartet cycle. My own preference is to learn what I can about this music from as many different performances as I can.

I will say a couple things, though. It's an error in my view to insist that Bartók's music requires a supposedly "Hungarian" interpreter for authenticity. He himself, while deeply committed to folk music from multiple regions, including some that are now what we call Hungary (but many more that are not), wished to be an international composer, and did not wish in his major concert works such as the concertos and quartets to be be shoe-horned into a small, ethnic niche of limited scope and importance.

It's also very important to note that the folk songs that Bartók recorded and absorbed into his mature sound came from many widely varying ethnicities from all over Eastern Europe. I.e., not at all only just from the region we now call Hungary. (Note, for example, that the town where Bartók was born is now in Romania.) The folk songs came from a wide geographical area and from even more widely diverse cultures. It would be rather ignorant to conflate all of them as "Hungarian."

Above all, Bartók was a modern composer. That's not to say that highlighting resonances with the widely-varying folk music sources that inspired Bartók is of no interest; this certainly can be. But it diminishes Bartók's creative aims and musical impact to place such things in too prominent a place in terms of "best" performance practice.

Finally, like Merl, I wish for my favored Bartók interpretations to have bite. We have a few dodgy recordings of Bartók's performances. He did not hold back. Some sort of musical versions of Bartók plush toys are of nearly zero interest to me.


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## Philidor

Knorf said:


> I'm on record as stating that the sadly all-too-common obsession with "best" is totally at odds with everything that art and music actually are.


Thank you for emphasizing this! Indeed, with such multi-dimensional, multifaceted processes as a musical rendition, it is full nonsense to think about linearily ordering ...

There is no contradiction if I say that it might be that we are getting more in resonance with performance A than with performance B.


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## Merl

With reference to what Knorf was just discussing, one documentary well worth a watch, if you haven't seen it, is 'Bela Bartok and Folk Song Collecting' (linked below). Gives you a basic idea of the weird mix of stuff he collected on his travels. I used to naively believe that the music he used to collect was fairly one-dimensional (that was purely due to my own ignorance and perceived notions of what constituted music of Eastern Europe). Obviously, with hindsight. I think rather differently. The videos linked below give just a glimpse of a few of the styles of 'folk music' he was exposed to.


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## Knorf

Nice links, Merl. And yes, and even those are just a proverbial "drop in the bucket" in terms of the diversity of styles and cultures that Bartók gathered in his folk music documentation and recording collection.


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## HenryPenfold

Another highly rewarding quartet number 5 listening session today!

As I suggested earlier, Bartok's string quartets can speak several different musical languages and need not be straight jacketed - we don't have to hear goulash dripping from the fretboards, and nowhere does Bartok indicate _alla mordere _or _con dente molto_! 😉

This is something I've learnt from listening to many different performances, mainly in recordings but also in concert.

The most interesting comparison is between a more forensic, literal reading and a spacious, softer focused rendition - this came across especially in my listening session of #5 today with Emerson and Arcadia.

I remember when I bought the Arcadia and was astonished how different this music can be, with almost lush and certainly late romantic cadences.

For anyone finding trepidation in delving into Bartok's marvellous fifth string quartet (or any of the others) the Arcadia Quartet is a more lyrical experience that may be more conducive.

Richard Bratby in his November 2018 Gramophone review of the complete set puts it thus:

_"if I was asked to recommend a Bartók cycle to a first-time listener intimidated by his spiky reputation, I’d send them straight to the Arcadia Quartet. Even for the aficionado, this spacious, big-hearted vision of Bartók as poet, dreamer and humourist has something distinctive and beautiful to say."_

Let me be clear, I am not highlighting the performance/recording of itself, I'm using it as a means to discuss Bartok's music and how a myriad of perspectives can be taken, some of them surprising.

How unusual it is, when considering Bartok's string quartets (in this case the fifth), to think of Bartok as 'a poet, dreamer and humourist' [with] 'something _beautiful_ to say'.

For the record, the Eder and Ragazze are well worth investigating!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Had to spend ages finding my Hyperion download and found it, hurra! Aha, it's that one  Guess I've heard it a thousand times with the Emersons. I have noticed they some times get a hard time on TC which I can't understand at all...Now I have the New Budapest Quartet too. I don't often buy multiple recordings of the same pieces. Now that I have spotify, I can do some comparisons, but usually forget what I've heard (unless it's guitar)...I mostly have fond memories of all the music I've heard (I've heard a whole bunch of everything!). Bartok is among the composers that have been my favorites for 30 years and more, especially for the quartets and violin concerto no. 2. Maybe I'll always remember the thrill it was hearing the music for the first time. Great to hear quartet no. 5 again!!!


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## Neo Romanza

These are my three favorite Bartók SQ cycles:




























Each of these cycles have something unique to offer or, at least, I believe they do. The Takács have a more up-to-date Hungarian sound, which doesn't downplay the folk elements and angularity of the music. The Tátrai have an older, but rawer style in Bartók than the Takács, but where they may lack polish, they certainly make up for in spontaneity and sheer excitement. The ABQ is a completely different animal than the two afore mentioned quartets in that their cycle brings a precision and remarkable clarity to the music, but also they play the music a bit more modernistic like it was the Second Viennese School or even later post-war composers like Ligeti or Elliott Carter. When I'm in the mood for these SQs, which is quite often since Bartók is one of my absolute favorite composers, these are the three cycles I reach for when I want to hear consistently great performances of these works.


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## Mandryka

What is the earliest recorded performance? Are there any recordings which Bartok was involved with? Did Bartok say anything about the music? Who created it in Europe? America? How was it received? Did Schoenberg comment?

It does seem to have been written at a time when he was involved in folk music inspired compositions. So an approach which somehow involves some folkloric aspects seems like a justifiable performance experiment, though I must say, I’m not clear what that means. Is Mikrokosmos’s performance folkloric in the right way? Or Ramor’s? Mikrokosmos presumably very well considered, I don’t know if the booklet includes any reflections on their approach.


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> What is the earliest recorded performance? Are there any recordings which Bartok was involved with? Did Bartok say anything about the music? Who created it in Europe? America? How was it received? Did Schoenberg comment?
> 
> It does seem to have been written at a time when he was involved in folk music inspired compositions. So an approach which somehow involves some folkloric aspects seems like a justifiable performance experiment, though I must say, I’m not clear what that means. Is Mikrokosmos’s performance folkloric in the right way? Or Ramor’s? Mikrokosmos presumably very well considered, I don’t know if the booklet includes any reflections on their approach.


The first recording of the fifth was on 14th May 1946 performed by the Hungarian Quartet and is available from Pristine. According to the CD notes, Zoltán Székely, the leader of the quartet was a close friend of Bartok, and although the Premiere was given by the Kolisch Quartet, Kolisch would refer to the Hungarian Quartet recordings in his later seminar. This cross-referencing gives a suggestion of 'authoritative/definitive' performing practice - all speculation of course. Bartok is quoted as saying that the Julliard Quartet performed his quartets better than any other musicians. They recorded the entire cycle three years later.


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## Art Rock

I got the Emerson (DG) in the nineties, and although I played them many times, I never understood why these quartets were so highly regarded. Last year I got the Takacs Quartet on Hungaroton, and I finally appreciate them. I plan to listen to the Emerson again later this week, and see how I feel now about their rendition.


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## HerbertNorman

Art Rock said:


> I got the Emerson (DG) in the nineties, and although I played them many times, I never understood why these quartets were so highly regarded. Last year I got the Takacs Quartet on Hungaroton, and I finally appreciate them. I plan to listen to the Emerson again later this week, and see how I feel now about their rendition.


I really like this recording by the Takacs , I think I could call it my favourite... I'm listening to the Hagen today...


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## Montarsolo

Listened to the piece. But it's not my cup of tea I must confess. Interesting to listen to, interesting passages but no music that appeals to me.


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## starthrower

I've always wanted a CD copy of one of the older groups so I finally ordered the Hungarian Quartet on DG. But I have to say that the Takács recording on London sounds phenomenal to my ears. And I love the way they play these pieces. It's modern, bold and confident but still retains a bit of a rustic quality. And their phrasing is impeccable. I really struggled with these works at first and there's an old thread here I started twelve years ago expressing my puzzlement. But I received many helpful replies from experienced listeners so I've kept at it over the years to the point of truly appreciating this great cycle of quartets. This thread provides the motivation to dive back into some of these pieces with more focus and intensity. I got to know no.3 much better when it was nominated a while back. I've got a lot more listening to do on no.5.


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## Bwv 1080

Knorf said:


> I will say a couple things, though. It's an error in my view to insist that Bartók's music requires a supposedly "Hungarian" interpreter for authenticity. He himself, while deeply committed to folk music from multiple regions, including some that are now what we call Hungary (but many more that are not), wished to be an international composer, and did not wish in his major concert works such as the concertos and quartets to be be shoe-horned into a small, ethnic niche of limited scope and importance.
> 
> It's also very important to note that the folk songs that Bartók recorded and absorbed into his mature sound came from many widely varying ethnicities from all over Eastern Europe. I.e., not at all only just from the region we now call Hungary. (Note, for example, that the town where Bartók was born is now in Romania.) The folk songs came from a wide geographical area and from even more widely diverse cultures. It would be rather ignorant to conflate all of them as "Hungarian."
> 
> Above all, Bartók was a modern composer. That's not to say that highlighting resonances with the widely-varying folk music sources that inspired Bartók is of no interest; this certainly can be. But it diminishes Bartók's creative aims and musical impact to place such things in too prominent a place in terms of "best" performance practice.


Great post, a couple more broad points

- what gets called Hungarian music in the 19th century w Liszt, Brahms etc. is sort of a Gypsy minstrelsy, and does not relate to the actual folk music that Bartok collected
- Bartok did look for commonalities in the music he collected, the primary ones were the modal nature and the additive rhythms - grouping of 2 and 3 beats rather than traditional meters like 4/4
- without trying to get too technical, Bartok would take this modal material and extract characteristic patterns of intervals then play around with these cells, typically with symmetrical transpositions, this creates much of the tension and dissonance and resolution.


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## Mandryka

I just wonder whether there’s a way of presenting this quartet in performance so that it sounds above all the music of a modern composer - so that the feeling of being tied to folk music is secondary, hidden from the ear even.

There is another composer who is interested in folk music, and who is above all, modern. That’s Walter Zimmermann, most clearly in the later pieces in his early collection Lokal Musik - where the folkloric element is very transformed.


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## Merl

The thing I like about the 5th quartet is it is so well-balanced. The careful placements of those 2 slow movements is perfect. Although I've seen the 3rd and 4th quartets live I've never seen the 5th. I did have the chance pre-pandemic (it was by one of the ensembles who'd just made a cycle - forget who now) but the gig was about 50 miles away, in the middle of nowhere and on a school night so I opted not to bother.


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> There is another composer who is interested in folk music, and who is above all, modern. That’s Walter Zimmermann, most clearly in the later pieces in his early collection Lokal Musik - where the folkloric element is very transformed.


Very transformed, but still very evident. I would say even more so than in Bartok.


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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> Very transformed, but still very evident. I would say even more so than in Bartok.


At the start of the cycle certainly but I’d say less and less so as the cycle progresses - in for example riuti or erd wasser luft töne II. One idea is that the cycle is “about” the the sublimation of the folk music, it’s transformation into the universal and modern.

I want to hear that in Bartok, but can’t - the harmony, some sort of modal harmony system I guess, keeps tying it down to earth.

By the way, a genuinely modernist composer who asserts that he was really inspired by Bartok quartets is Franco Donatoni - but it’s not obvious what the influence actually was, at least not to my ears!


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## Mandryka

Mandryka said:


> One idea is that the cycle is “about” the the sublimation of the folk music, it’s transformation into the universal and modern.
> 
> I want to hear that in Bartok,


Answer: Hagen.

That’ll do for me.


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## Kreisler jr

This used to be my favorite Bartok qt (although it was probably a toss-up with the 4th). For whatever reason, I didn't appreciate it as much during my first traversal of the 4 recordings (Hungarian/DG, Juilliard 1960s, Tokyo/DG, Hagen) I have. Attention faltered during the last two movements but it was probably my fault. I will certainly have another full round of these.
(This was different when I listened to the 3rd for a week, a piece I had been struggling with a bit and came to appreciate much more than before.)


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## Merl

After some heavy listening (I've had a lot of spare time this week) I've blogged my thoughts (link below if you're interested)
There's a few recordings I found a little underplayed / underwhelming here (ironically two were ones that I actually own) and some very pleasant surprises. I was really in the mood for some Bartok this week so this fell just right for me.









Bartok - String Quartet 5 (SQ review)


Bartók's 5th quartet was composed in 1934 under the patronage of the wealthy American Elizabeth Sprague Coolidge. It's a work less dissonant and spiky than the 3rd or 4th quartets, to me. The 1st movement has strong rhythmic motifs and abrasive melodic motifs in juxtaposition. The melodic music...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Mandryka

The Hagen Bartok is a great discovery for me, I feel I’ve found the Bartok cycle I’ve been looking for. They’re performing Shostakovich a lot at the moment - I may go and see them, Shostakovich is another composer who I’ve never quite seen what all the fuss is about. Maybe Hagen can do the trick there too.


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## Malx

I have spent more time listening to this quartet than many choices of late and have had the luxury of being able to avail myself of many different takes on the piece. As Henry stated in his post(s) there is more than one way to skin a Bartokian cat - recordings vary significantly in how much stress is placed on the spikier more dissonant areas of Bartoks writing . 
As far as Bartok's quartets go, like many I guess, I've tended to favour the third and fourth quartets, but have concluded that I like the balance of this work. The five movements - fast, slow, dancelike, slow, fast, give a sound structure to the quartet and allow for a variety of interpretations to succeed. In this quartet I do not sense the influence of folk music as strongly as some of the others - or maybe I'm just missing the signposts.
I find when listening to Bartok's quartets perhaps more than other composers I find my mood on the day influences which recordings I favour.
I listened to over a dozen recordings as the week progressed, some more than once and without going into the depth of Merl's blog I have selected three that I enjoyed greatly this week:

Tokyo (DG),
Keller (Warner/Apex),
Diotima (Naive).

All of the above I have on my shelves, so perhaps I know them better than those I streamed - but of those I streamed only one disappointed, but that could be down to me being in a slightly 'spikier' frame of mind this week.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> The Hagen Bartok is a great discovery for me, I feel I’ve found the Bartok cycle I’ve been looking for. They’re performing Shostakovich a lot at the moment - I may go and see them, Shostakovich is another composer who I’ve never quite seen what all the fuss is about. Maybe Hagen can do the trick there too.


I'd be interested to know why the Hagen has hit the spot for you, if for no better reason than to help me understand why I rate them highly!

I've been enjoying their cycle for some years now, but I can't quite put my finger on why. I do know that it's got something to do with their uncanny ability regarding modulation, phrasing, timbre and the whole wider family of intonation. Perhaps this is just what happens when stellar musicians perform supreme music. Taking the finale alone, it's breathtaking to just follow each instrument individually. The virtuosity is enormous, but doesn't draw attention to itself. It is a more 'technical' performance akin to the Emerson, but I firmly believe the music can be delivered in a number of different ways and still be absorbing, enjoyable and valid.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Bartók is just too much fun. I never tire of hearing these quartets, and this one just may be my favorite of the lot. I love the deeply satisfying "arch" structure, the sultry, seductive "night music," the ferocious dancing energy, the swirling counterpoint. A fantastic touch that I hadn't picked up on in previous listens is the insertion out of nowhere of the hilarious little tune at the very end of the finale which is promptly crushed by Bartók's savagery. Not much to say here; this work is a delight to experience. I wish I had the time to compare recordings nowadays, but unfortunately I just don't. For Bartók my favorites have traditionally been Takács (sans the dry acoustic), Hagen (they play the explosive portions so fiercely that it's almost scary), Hungarian (almost too lyrical, but still a great take), and Juilliard.

*Merl *gets to pick next! Current schedule:

Merl
Knorf
Malx
starthrower
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


----------



## Merl

Crap, I've still not made my mind up. I'll mull it over tomorrow.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Great choice this week - a work I am familiar with but glad to discover the Jerusalem recording, which after the 90s dinosaurs of Emerson, Takacs and Hagen, is a refreshing contemporary take. It’s got the necessary rhythmic feel, but more musical phrasing and less of the ‘it’s Bartok so it’s about harshness, ethnic stuff and motor rhythms’ vibe


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## Knorf

Bwv 1080 said:


> ... ‘it’s Bartok so it’s about harshness, ethnic stuff and motor rhythms’...


To be very clear, this "quote" accurately applies to _absolutely no one at all,_ excepting Bartók's harshest critics, but certainly not at all fairly to any of his fans and appreciators, nor to any string quartet who has championed his works, ever.


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## Bwv 1080

Knorf said:


> To be very clear, this "quote" accurately applies to _absolutely no one at all,_ excepting Bartók's harshest critics, but certainly not at all fairly to any of his fans and appreciators, nor to any string quartet who has championed his works, ever.


It is quote not “quote”’ as its a _real quote you quote_ whether or not you agree with it

an its just a harmless bit a hyperbole about an impression I get of a superficial take on Bartok on some interpretations, not some grave insult to anyone.


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## Knorf

Bwv 1080 said:


> ...an its just a harmless bit a hyperbole about an impression I get of a superficial take on Bartok on some interpretations, not some grave insult to anyone.


Sure, if you think it's fun to set up little straw men and knock them over yourself, and then act like that makes you a giant, by all means, please proceed. Give 'em a good whack!


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## Carmina Banana

I have enjoyed listening this great quartet again. I agree with others that it is a piece that contains a wealth of contrast. I suppose this a thing we associate more with classical composers—a great variety of material that leaves the listener with a sense of completion.

There has been some talk of the folk element in Bartok’s music. It is an interesting topic and I don’t want to say too much with Bartok experts nearby, but I had a couple simple observation. Amidst the counterpoint and other sophisticated compositional techniques, there are some elements that strike me as folk related:

In the first and last movements in particular, there are moments in which a bass prolongs a note or a fifth for an extended period of time. This is reminiscent of the drone that accompanies folk melodies in many regions of the world. These moments don’t go on for long, but it is enough to give me a rustic feeling.

Also, the melodic content itself, because it is often based on a set of stepwise intervals, is characterized by repetition and is contained for periods of time within a small range. Regardless of the intention, these moments sound to me somewhat like folk musician improvising on a theme. By contrast, many composers of the era were more interested in wide ranging intervals and avoiding repetitive patterns or even repeating the same pitch any more than necessary. 

I have always thought of Bartok as one of the most complex composers in regard to influence and style. The folk element seems almost always present but rarely blatant. 
My first introduction to the cycle was the Emersons, but I am really enjoying the Takacs right now.


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## Knorf

Carmina Banana said:


> I have always thought of Bartok as one of the most complex composers in regard to influence and style. The folk element seems almost always present but rarely blatant.


I totally agree. Although the folk element is way more blatant in some pieces, such as the _Dance Suite,_ it does tend to be less overtly present in works such as the quartets or _The Miraculous Mandarin_, for a couple examples. Still, the diverse array of folk elements from all over Eastern Europe and even Africa, that he drew from, are certainly a critical component of his mature language. As someone astutely noted above, Bartók noted certain commonalities among many of the folk sources and synthesized a new vocabulary from them.


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## Merl

As I'm out part of tomorrow and doing my planning tomorrow night I thought it would be best to put up my pick for the weekly quartet now.
With so many quartets careering around my head for this week's pick I was really unsure of which to choose. Names like Spohr, Hartmann, Eisler, Onslow, Haas, Ropartz, Shostakovich, and Kalliwoda all crossed my mind. However, in light of recent choices I went with something from the Romantic era but with a difference. Although mostly known for his operas and masses, *Cherubini* composed 6 string quartets. The first one was composed in his 50s as a welcome break from his operas, the 2nd was a transcription of a symphony and the last 4 were written in the last 10 years of his life after he grew weary of writing longer vocal works. His* First String Quartet* was written in 1814 but wasn't published until 1836. Its a very fine work and you may expect it to either be some poor imitation of Mozart / Haydn or a Beethoven rip-off. Well, you may be surprised! The 1st quartet has very little in it from the quartet tradition of any, but is more a reflection of Cherubini's operatic writing. After an original cool reception it gained a lot of traction and became standard repertoire in the 19th century. Schumann (eventually - he warmed considerably to it), Mendelssohn and Beethoven admired it so much that they viewed it as a masterpiece and studied it in depth. Later Brahms published Cherubini's later quartets and was a huge admirer of Cherubini's work.
If you adore Mendelssohn's quartets (as I do) and Schubert's quartets to a lesser extent then you will certainly enjoy this one too. Let's face it, if you have Beethoven as your number #1 fan (Beethoven viewed Cherubini as his greatest contemporary - “I am enraptured whenever I hear a new work of yours and feel as great an interest in it as in my own works—in brief, I honor and love you.”) then you must be good. The feeling was mutual, incidentally, although mostly just musically on Cherubini's part! Btw, if you haven't heard any of Cherubini's 6 quartets they are impressive works and Beethoven SQ lovers should definitely check out the 3rd onwards which definitely are influenced by Beethoven. I've already blogged a review of the 3rd quartet as it's a criminally neglected masterpiece. Hope you enjoy this one but if not, hey ho, say so and why. We can't agree on everything can we?
I've listed the recordings below and most are from the 4 main cycles (they're all available on streaming and mostly on YouTube). Although I've already written my blog post on this one I'll hold it back till the end of the week as I'd be interested what y'all think of the different recordings as the 4 main cycles (soundwise and performance-wise) are very different and I expect that some will prefer the closer, drier recorded sound of some ensembles whilst others will go for the more resonant one(s) or the slower ones. Typical performances last around 30 mins so it's not a very long quartet.

From full cycles:
Quartetto David
Hausmusik
Melos
Savinio

Other single recordings
Cherubini (1980)
Britten
Aeolian (1952)

So to re-itterate it's *Cherubini's String Quartet 1 in E flat major. *

Here's the Melos recording as a taster.


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## maestro267

Nice! I wound up with the BIS recordings of all six of his quartets earlier this year but I haven't got round to listening to them yet so this is a good excuse to get started.


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## Merl

I was going to pick my fave Cherubini quartet (no.3) but I'd already reviewed it and didn't want to influence anyone regarding recordings. If you don't quite get the 1st try the 3rd. I love it. 
My choice this week will either go well or crash and burn. Am I bothered? Lol


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I was going to pick my fave Cherubini quartet (no.3)


Everything sounds better in D minor


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## HerbertNorman

Merl said:


> I was going to pick my fave Cherubini quartet (no.3) but I'd already reviewed it and didn't want to influence anyone regarding recordings. If you don't quite get the 1st try the 3rd. I love it.
> My choice this week will either go well or crash and burn. Am I bothered? Lol


Ha, I thought I had misread tbh ... I literally presumed you had picked the third!
I still like the choice though


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## Merl

Apologies for any confusion. *It's* *definitely the 1st. *

Here's a picture of Cherubini and his magnificent curls, for no reason whatsoever.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Everything sounds better in D minor


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## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Everything sounds better in D minor


Particularly Mach


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## Bwv 1080

Listening to Melos, thought the phrasing better than the Saviano


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## StevehamNY

Merl, I know I've asked a similar question about other composers and quartets, but once again please help me to understand why this music has not been recorded more widely!


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> Merl, I know I've asked a similar question about other composers and quartets, but once again please help me to understand why this music has not been recorded more widely!


Cherubini's first quartet was standard rep in the 19th century - a very popular work with the public, performers and especially other composers. Quite why it fell out of the repertoire we don't know exactly. It could just have gone out of vogue but many believe it was partly due to a certain grumpy doom-merchant called Berlioz. Frustrated by the fact that he was a miserable sod and no-one was buying his music he started working as a critic. As Head of the Paris Conservatoire, Cherubini issued an order that men and women had to enter the Paris Conservatory from opposite ends of the building. Blissfully unaware, misery-guts Hector entered the courtyard through the female door. A porter told him to turn round but Berlioz refused. Cherubini came into the room and had a hissy-fit at him, telling him to get out. Apparently Cherubini commanded the porter, "Seize him and take him away to prison!" What came next was pure pantomime as Cherubini and the porter chased Berlioz around the table--knocking over stools and desks. Berlioz eventually got away but he left shouting how he would have the last laugh. Supposedly, the whole event soured him against Cherubini for life and he vowed to get revenge. In reviews he sneeringly trashed Cherubini's works and even interrupted his last opera sarcastically offering money for anyone with an idea, any ideas to improve it. He used his huge influence amongst critics and the public to tarnish Cherubini's name and passe style and would even mimic his Italian accent in polite company . The suggestion is that he basically buried Cherubini's music after he died with negativity (it was at about this time that his 1st quartet stopped becoming standard rep). The irony was that Berlioz was actually a huge admirer of Cherubini's work and was massively influenced by him. In his later years Berlioz softened his stance and was complimentary about some of Cherubini's works but I think the damage has been done. He'd made Cherubini 'unhip'. In the years after Berlioz died the reputation of Cherubini died in the public's mind too. Well done Hector, you sour-faced old turd! Lol, tbf to Berlioz, Cherubini was allegedly somewhat of a snob, could be very serious in company (Beethoven was "an unlicked bear") and could also be a proper sarcastic bugger so he was no Saint either! These artistic types are such drama llamas! 😄


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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> I'd be interested to know why the Hagen has hit the spot for you, if for no better reason than to help me understand why I rate them highly!


I can’t answer that question properly . . . yet. But I can say this, their Dvorak op 105 has the same quality. They have me listening not to melody but to texture.


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## Merl

I've linked my Cherubini SQ1 blog review below. From the deathly silence I'm guessing this is not a popular pick but hey ho. The reason I enjoy this quartet (and picked it) is because its not like other romantic era quartets (the only one in a similar vein is Verdi) in that's it's very operatic in form. The 2nd quartet, for example, starts moving away from this style and more towards a Beethovian one. By the time he gets to the 3rd quartet Cherubini is definitely influenced by Beethoven. However, don't just think Cherubini was a Beethoven rip- off. This went both ways. We know from anecdotal evidence that Beethoven was influenced by Cherubini (he loved to play his music on the piano) and there's the Beethoven symphony 5 connections with Cherubini's 'Hymne du Pantheon' (Gardiner says there's some definite 'borrowing' from Beethoven). The quartets from 3-6 have enough quirks and clever writing to stand on their own (and as I said, I view the 3rd as a masterpiece).









Cherubini - String Quartet 1 (SQ review)


Cherubini's 1st String Quartet was composed in 1814 but wasn't published until 1836. It wasn't initially popular and even Schumann, in reviewing it, was unsure of it stylistically and found it difficult to understand as it wasn't like the traditional quartets of the past masters. Cherubini...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Philidor

Don't worry. I am quite busy this week (not in music), so I just listened to Cherubini #1 just twice, but I enjoyed both times ... being curious für the others (#2 to #6).


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## Knorf

I liked it a lot! It's a new one to me. It's kind of quirky. Certainly, plenty of imagination and character to hold my interest. It's more Classical than Romantic to my ears.


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## Art Rock

Listening right now (Hausmusik, CPO). It's been a while since I last played the 3 CD's with his six quartets. That's one of the benefits of this thread - it makes you dig up CD's that may not be top favourites but are good to hear again.


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## Kreisler jr

I listened to it once and it is a bit quirky and not so easy to place. It seems the only quartet Cherubini finished before Beethoven's death, all his other ones are really late from the 1830s, I think. I have had one disc from the Hausmusik series for ages (IIRC with 2+5) but could never be bothered to get the remaining ones.


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## maestro267

I enjoyed it. I see the Mendelssohn comparisons, for sure. I also listened to No. 3 as it was so heartily recommended.


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## Malx

It seems you have landed on an unfortunate week for your selection Merl - I like others have had little listening time for anything this week but have managed to squeeze in a little journey of discovery.

I have streamed four different recordings as the week has progressed, initially I thought I was hearing some Beethoven (scherzo?), then maybe Schubert but when arriving at the last two I listened to, and being a bit more conversant with the quartet I realised it was Cherubini I was hearing. Influences were not too obvious to me but I did eventually conclude that there was more of the 18th century in the sound. The slow opening and the whole of the first movement works well enough, the larghetto is almost like two movements in one, not sure about that one. The scherzo and finale I enjoyed best of all.

I started my journey with the Savinio recording which I have to say didn't inspire me much, the recording was close and sharp to my ears. Next up was the Hausmusik, after the Savinio I preferred the sound which along with more considered tempos allowed me to hear a bit more of the texture and the rhythm albeit at a leisurely pace. Moving on to the Melos I thought - thats more like it, a bit more urgency without rush and a far better balance to the sound. I finally arrived at the Quartetto David recording, once I was able to locate it - again another recording that makes a very strong case for the quartet.

In conclusion a very decent quartet that is another new find for me - and with my limited listening time favour the Melos recording as having the best balance of fine playing and great sound, quartets from this era seem to benefit from a little warmth imo.
I'm off to check Merl's blog now to see his recommendations.


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## sbmonty

I have enjoyed this week's choice. Thanks Merl! I do hear a Beethoven influence in the melodies. 
I think my preference is the Quartetto Savinio. The tempo is great and the sound is a bit dry, much like the Talich Quartet recordings I have and enjoy. Placed an order for the complete set by the Savinio.


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## Merl

That's why I flagged up the sound. Each set has a very indidividual sound and sometimes performance style that works better in some quartets than others. Generally speaking the Savinio set is very dry, close, brisker and snappy. The Hausmusik set is beautifully recorded but their tempos are rather leisurely. The David set is very reverberant and vibrant and the Melos strikes a happy medium between the lot. Which type of sound you prefer is very personal. I'll be blogging the lot over the next month so if you're interested keep yer eyes peeled for those (I'm partway through #4 as we speak). I'm just glad some people enjoyed it. Tbh, I don't care if you don't. I didn't write this quartet so I'm not gonna take umbrance if someone says it sucks and take my bat and ball home / have a hissy fit / sulk like a baby. Opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has one.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I was almost completely unfamiliar with Cherubini's music (I think I had only heard one of his symphonies a while back when I was doing the Saturday Symphony thing) so it was a nice to get a bit more acquainted. The first half was fairly standard late Classical period to my ears—lots of early Beethoven resonances, but I did feel it lacked the cohesion and fluency that even the youthful works of the master contain. However, I enjoyed the second half of the work with its quicksilver Mendelssohnian lightness and vigor—in fact I was really reminded of Felix's octet in the finale. A really nice shot of pick-me-up-and-slap-a-smile-on-my-face music there. I originally put on the Cherubini Quartet but was unimpressed by the sound and playing, so switched to the Melos and stuck with them. I still think there's a pretty gaping lacuna in post-Baroque Italian instrumental music, with a small handful of standouts like Respighi and Malipiero.

Next week's pick will go to *Knorf*!


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## HenryPenfold

I don't remember hearing any of Cherubini's chamber music before this thread. 

I enjoyed listening to the first quartet and each time I carried on and listened through the other 5.

Very engaging music. I imagine that the next time I want to listen to a string quartet from this era, Cherubini will be a contender.

A good choice and a rewarding week's listening - thanks Merl 👍


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## Merl

I picked the Cherubini as we've had a few more edgier quartets recently so I thought this wou_l_d be a palate-cleanser. Agree with many people's comments about this quartet being a game of two halves and I do prefer the 2nd half myself. Those of you who are familiar with, or have listened to, the other quartets will notice that a few of his quartets get better as they go on and his finales are usually very strong. Just as a side note, Cherubini's idol was Haydn who he considered as the greatest ever composer. Interesting that a few people also hear Mendelssohn in these quartets. Mendelssohn fell in love with Cherubini's music early and visited Paris in 1825 where he was introduced to Cherubini. Cherubini was then 64 years old and director of the Paris Conservatoire. Cherubini listened to his his Piano Quartet in B minor and the ever acerbic Cherubini commented, “This lad is rich; he will do well. He has already has done well, but he spends too much of his money, and he puts too much fabric into his clothes.” Even with these comments it's obvious that he rated young Felix very highly and Cherubini wanted young Mendelssohn to remain in Paris to study with him. For reasons unknown Mendelssohn's father declined.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I picked the Cherubini as we've had a few more edgier quartets recently so I thought this wou_l_d be a palate-cleanser.


Depends on one's palate - to me, it's more like a portion of Italian trifle following a main of authentic Hungarian Gulyás_.... 😁 _


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## Merl

Wonder if we'll get fish, chips and mushy peas next?


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Wonder if we'll get fish, chips and mushy peas next?


Mushy peas appeal to the northern palate. In London we take cuisine seriously 😳


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Mushy peas appeal to the northern palate. In London we take cuisine seriously 😳


Food snob. 🧀🥩🍗🥨🍖🍔🌭


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Food snob. 🧀🥩🍗🥨🍖🍔🌭


I suppose you don't like sweet honey made from Brentford bees?


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## Bwv 1080




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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> Mushy peas appeal to the northern palate. In London we take cuisine seriously 😳


Pie Mash and Liquor


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Pie Mash and Liquor


Manze at Tower Bridge Road or Arment in Walworth are my go-tos


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## Merl

I wonder whether Cherubini would have preferred fish, chips and mushy peas or pie, mash and liquor? It's an important question.


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> I wonder whether Cherubini would have preferred fish, chips and mushy peas or pie, mash and liquor? It's an important question.


Given he was an Italian living in France, we can assume none of the above


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I wonder whether Cherubini would have preferred fish, chips and mushy peas or pie, mash and liquor? It's an important question.


Looking at the hairdo and overall demeanour, I'd say saveloys.

[in these woke times, I'll get my coat....]


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Bwv 1080 said:


> Given he was an Italian living in France, we can assume none of the above
> 
> View attachment 178205


atlasofprejudice.com was the revelation of the day


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## Knorf

I think I'm up next? True story?


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## Merl

Knorf said:


> I think I'm up next? True story?


Yes. Now get picking! 🎻 🤠🎹🎼🎧🎻


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## Knorf

Ok, for this week, I'm picking one of my all-time favorite works for string quartet, a piece that has fascinated me from first acquaintance.

*Anton Webern: *Fünf Sätze für Streichquartett, Op. 5 ("Five Movements")

There are many fine recordings.

I hope this engenders some discussion. I think it's a gorgeous composition, one packing an emotional punch as well, but I'll reserve further personal remarks for later in the week.

Enjoy!


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## HenryPenfold

Knorf said:


> Ok, for this week, I'm picking one of my all-time favorite works for string quartet, a piece that has fascinated me from first acquaintance.
> 
> *Anton Webern: *Fünf Sätze für Streichquartett, Op. 5 ("Five Movements")
> 
> There are many fine recordings.
> 
> I hope this engenders some discussion. I think it's a gorgeous composition, one packing an emotional punch as well, but I'll reserve further personal remarks for later in the week.
> 
> Enjoy!


Excellent choice, Knorf. 👍

Webern is a long term favourite of mine and of course, this composition reveals so much with so 'little'. 

As one focuses on the very first sounds, one is drawn totally into the music, the sound- world and the genius of Webern (for me at least, the most talented of the three 2VS chaps).

I have just listened through this opus twice. First with LaSalle Quartet, then Quatuor Diotima, circa 11 and 13 minutes duration, respectively. Very surprising how different the music comes across from these two combos. I'll say a little more another time when I've had time to reflect.


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## Malx

I only have the LaSalle recording of the Webern on the shelves but I have streamed a few others in the past.
Making an early start to the week I have listened to my LaSalle, the Diotima recording Henry mentions above - he is absolutely correct in pointing out the difference between the two - and just finished the Emerson Quartet recording. 
Looking forward to digging deeper into this work.


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## Mandryka

I can say something about what I feel about this work. It is, I think, full of extremely expressive, lyrical gestures. The music is voluptuous.

Webern’s genius is partly his timing of each movement. On the one hand you have long enough to understand and savour each gesture. But on the other, because the movements only last a couple of minutes it always sounds intense to me. And no less importantly, I have no sense of being subjected to a compositional process, the working out of a development or a variation. I think it is always fresh and glimmering, it never loses its lustre by becoming cerebral. It’s intensity is in the moment - you are not hampered by thinking “this now is like what happened before.” It is a sequence of fleeting experiences of inwardness.

I think part of what I want to say is these movements are like lieder - they are songs without words.


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## Bwv 1080

Downloaded a couple of newer recordings, Artis and Amaryllis. Not as familiar with this as op 9, looking forward to getting to know it better


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## Merl

Nice choice, Knorfster! Looking forward to listening to a host of different recordings having recently blogged Webern's paean to romanticism, the beautiful Langsamer Satz. I do know this piece and have a few recordings (LaSalle, Emerson and Arditti). Should be interesting.


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## Mandryka

Interesting to think of Webern op 5 alongside Ferneyhough’s sonatas for string quartet. I am sure that in terms of compositional processes the two are very different. And I bet the Ferneyhough is harder to play. But this thread is called “from a listener’s point of view.” Can I hear a basic, fundamental, style difference? Honestly, I’m not sure. This post is a request for help.


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Interesting to think of Webern op 5 alongside Ferneyhough’s sonatas for string quartet. I am sure that in terms of compositional processes the two are very different. And I bet the Ferneyhough is harder to play. But this thread is called “from a listener’s point of view.” Can I hear a basic, fundamental, style difference? Honestly, I’m not sure. This post is a request for help.


No


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## Bwv 1080

Got me curious about two aspects of Webern, the exact circumstances of how an American soldier killed him, and his alleged Nazi sympathies. On the former, found this account, interesting that it happened so long after the Nazi surrender:



> In his 1979 biography, _Anton von Webern: A Chronicle of His Life and Work, _Moldenhauer, writing in collaboration with his wife, Rosaleen, describes how, upon arriving at Mittersill after the war, Webern’s son-in-law Mattel tried to purchase black-market goods from the American soldiers stationed in the village. One day, he approached Raymond Bell, looking to buy sugar, coffee, and American dollars. Bell alerted Sgt. Murray, but when the two reported Mattel to higher-ups at the Counter-Intelligence Corps, headquartered in nearby Zell am See, they were told to entrap and arrest Mattel themselves.
> 
> A sting operation occurred at Mattel’s house on September 15—coincidentally the night Anton Webern and his wife dined there. The Weberns arrived around eight o’clock and subsequently enjoyed a meal with their daughter and son-in-law, as Wilhelmine Webern would later recount. Afterward, Mattel announced the imminent arrival of some Americans, so Webern, Wilhelmine, Christine, and the Mattels’ three sleepy children retired to a room across the hall, where the children were put to bed. When Bell and Murray arrived soon after nine, Mattel served them drinks in the kitchen, and the three agreed upon a price for certain illicit goods. The Americans drew their pistols and arrested Mattel.
> 
> At precisely this time, Webern decided to indulge in a pleasure he had been anticipating all evening: a cigar that Mattel had procured for him. His wife did not want the smoke to disturb the three sleeping grandchildren, so Webern stepped outside into the darkness.
> 
> Bell, seemingly unaware that others were in the house, heard footsteps in the hallway. Curious, he, too, made his way outside, though what happened next can never be verified. Bell would later say that Webern—five feet three inches tall, 110 pounds, and in frail health—had provoked him into firing the three shots. Whatever the motive, Bell ran off for help, heading to a nearby inn, where a dance was being held for the Americans. Webern, meanwhile, struggled to get back inside the house. _Ich wurde erschossen,_ he said—“I have been shot.” Wilhelmine and Christine placed him on a mattress. He was bleeding severely from his stomach. _Es ist aus,_ Webern said—“It is over”—and with those final words, as laconic and profound as the music he created, he began to slip out of consciousness. Medical help finally arrived, but Anton Webern was dead.











Incident at Mittersill - The American Scholar


A new opera explores the mysterious death of the composer Anton Webern




theamericanscholar.org


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> Interesting to think of Webern op 5 alongside Ferneyhough’s sonatas for string quartet. I am sure that in terms of compositional processes the two are very different. And I bet the Ferneyhough is harder to play. But this thread is called “from a listener’s point of view.” Can I hear a basic, fundamental, style difference? Honestly, I’m not sure. This post is a request for help.


don’t think there is a style difference - Ferneyhough uses the same gestural language that Webern more or less invented. It’s like Monteverdi and Bach


----------



## Mandryka

[


Bwv 1080 said:


> don’t think there is a style difference - Ferneyhough uses the same gestural language that Webern more or less invented. It’s like Monteverdi and Bach


That’s the most interesting thing I’ve ever read on talk classical, if true.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Interesting to think of Webern op 5 alongside Ferneyhough’s sonatas for string quartet. I am sure that in terms of compositional processes the two are very different. And I bet the Ferneyhough is harder to play. But this thread is called “from a listener’s point of view.” Can I hear a basic, fundamental, style difference? Honestly, I’m not sure. This post is a request for help.


No, you have miss-quoted the thread title. At a stretch, single inverted commas might have got you by. It's "A Music Lover Perspective" and I don't see where the British mathematician Fenrneyhough fits into that.... 😉


----------



## Bwv 1080

Webern does appear to had some some complex views on the Third Reich, supporting its goals, but not it’s antisemitism



> Without question, Webern suffered greatly under the Third Reich. More problematic than his seemingly complex music was his close friendship with Schoenberg, who was Jewish. In the opera’s first scene, Moldenhauer holds Webern up as a “man who defended his homeland and its history, a man who spoke out against Hitler and the forces of evil.” What an injustice that “_that _man is killed by those he looked on as his saviors.” But this portrait of Webern is only partially true, and it omits a troubling side of the composer’s character.
> 
> Perhaps as a result of his belief in the superiority of pan-Germanic culture, Webern embraced the rise of the Third Reich, often vigorously. He admired Hitler and the National Socialists, praised the Japanese entry into the war, and imagined a time when the entire world might be pacified by the new Germanic order. No evidence exists to suggest that Webern was an anti-Semite (though three of his children became Nazis as adults, Mattel was a Nazi storm trooper, and a few of Webern’s close friends were also Nazis). He helped many Jewish friends during the difficult time preceding the annexation of Austria in 1938, and he later offered Jews refuge in his house, risking arrest and a possible death sentence. Yet how could a man whose closest friends and colleagues included so many Jews have failed to acknowledge the brutality of the Nazis?
> 
> To suggest that this cultured and intelligent man was startlingly simpleminded when it came to politics is not to apologize for his delusions. There is an almost unbelievable story of a trip he took in 1936 to Barcelona, where he was supposed to conduct the premiere of the Berg Violin Concerto. The soloist on the occasion, Louis Krasner, accompanied Webern on the train journey from Vienna to Spain—yet rather than go through Switzerland, as almost everyone else attending the festival was doing, Webern insisted on traveling through Germany, for no other reason than to show his Jewish traveling companion that it was possible for him to survive in Germany unscathed. This naïveté revealed itself on another occasion when Webern decided to conduct a program of Felix Mendelssohn’s music for the Austrian radio broadcaster RAVAG, at a time when the music of Mendelssohn, a Jew, was banned. This transgression (along with Webern’s strong ties to cultural institutions supported by Austria’s Social Democrat party) led to his immediate dismissal from RAVAG, for whom he had been conducting regular concerts.
> 
> In 1934, Schoenberg, having emigrated to the United States, wanted to dedicate a composition to Webern, on the occasion of his former pupil’s 50th birthday. But first, he needed Webern to answer a question: Was he a Nazi? Webern wrote back, emphatically stating that he was not, and expressing “a sense of the most vehement aversion” toward anti-Semites. Schoenberg was only temporarily put at ease. A few years later, he confronted Webern about the matter again, as reported in Kathryn Bailey’s _The Life of  Webern:_
> 
> I have heard repeatedly in the last few months a rumor which I have not believed and which has been described by various sources … as untrue. Nevertheless, under the circumstances it is necessary that I know the whole truth, and this I can get only through a direct answer to a direct question. Is it true that you have become a supporter, or even a member, of the Nazi party? There are few things that could give me greater joy than your answering no to the questions.
> 
> How Webern responded, or if he did so at all, is not known: no response to Schoenberg’s letter has been found.


From the same article as above


----------



## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> No, you have miss-quoted the thread title. At a stretch, single inverted commas might have got you by. It's "A Music Lover Perspective" and I don't see where the British mathematician Fenrneyhough fits into that.... 😉


I’d be quite surprised if anyone who enjoyed the Webern didn’t enjoy at least some of the 24 sonatas.


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## HenryPenfold

Bwv 1080 said:


> don’t think there is a style difference - Ferneyhough uses the same gestural language that Webern more or less invented. It’s like Monteverdi and Bach


I understand 'gestural' as being an obvious and superficial manifestation of a deeper-seated meaning. Webern's music is tied down to a bedrock of aesthetics and beauty. Not sure where that leaves Ferneyhough....


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> I’d be quite surprised if anyone who enjoyed the Webern didn’t enjoy at least some of the 24 sonatas.


I wouldn't be surprised, based on my own highly subjective experience, of course.


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## starthrower

I've watched this a few times. One camera, no music stands. Excellent audio as well.


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## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> I understand 'gestural' as being an obvious and superficial manifestation of a deeper-seated meaning. Webern's music is tied down to a bedrock of aesthetics and beauty. Not sure where that leaves Ferneyhough....


Do you think that Webern’s “bedrock of aesthetics and beauty” in op 5 is just gemütlichkeit - like in Richard Strauss’s tone poems? All those warm sweet melodies.


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## StevehamNY

It's been a minute since I listened to any music from this gang, but even when I have broken out the big LaSalle set, I've admittedly skimmed past the Webern pieces. Time for me to really concentrate and try to get my head around this one! 

I've already listened to the LaSalle and Emerson, have the Arditti in my ears as I type this.


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## HerbertNorman

I really enjoyed the Cherubini last week ! Favourite being the third of the 6 , but they're all quite good... it's clear why LvB was a fan.
"and now for something completely different"  A nice choice @Knorf ...! It will take a few listens to get into it though.
I own the Emerson and Arditti recordings of the Webern , the rest will be streaming.


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## HerbertNorman

HenryPenfold said:


> I suppose you don't like sweet honey made from Brentford bees?


Well , my family takes the Brentford Bees quite seriously , but they don't contemplate eating them  ... The "Hey Jude" was audible for the neighbours on Saturday ;-)


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Do you think that Webern’s “bedrock of aesthetics and beauty” in op 5 is just gemütlichkeit - like in Richard Strauss’s tone poems? All those warm sweet melodies.


No, I don't. I think that's way off the mark. Maybe you're not being serious with such perverse remark and I've missed your irony.

P.S. Maybe Ferneyhough could use a bit of gemütlichkeit - that might help.


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## Merl

I'm sticking to talking about composers' favourite foods. Sometimes you guys go right over my head.🍕🥘🍖🌭


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## Malx

starthrower said:


> I've watched this a few times. One camera, no music stands. Excellent audio as well.


Enjoyable video - I guess this is the quartet equivalent of orchestral antiphonal violin seating? It can help clarity of violin lines, nice.


----------



## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> No, I don't. I think that's way off the mark. Maybe you're not being serious with such perverse remark and I've missed your irony.
> 
> P.S. Maybe Ferneyhough could use a bit of gemütlichkeit - that might help.


In truth I’m completely at a loss to understand how anyone can find a form of beauty which is in the Webern but not in the Ferneyhough sonatas - at least some of them. Whatever their differences are in terms of construction, poetically, aesthetically they seem to me to birds of a feather - like The Wanderer Fantasy and the Schumann Fantasy, or Beethoven op 106 and Brahms op 5. But I’m not doubting your sincerity or correctness, in fact I’m more doubting my own ability to hear the relevant difference.

I thought that I could sense that Webern used congenial and rich fin-de-siècle melodies (hence my provocative word gemütlichkeit - admittedly used after a bottle of wine last night.) Nevertheless this afternoon, on revisiting the Ferneyhough I find that there’s no shortage of attractive melodic motifs - less lush maybe.

By the way, I think Juilliard bring out the melodic material very effectively - there are lots of versions by them (made with different line ups) - the one I listened to was an old Testament CD.

(iPad’s software really does not want me to write old Testament- I’ve never seen it be so insistant about orthography - it wants Old Testament! These annoying religious zealots are everywhere.)


----------



## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> In truth I’m completely at a loss to understand how anyone can find a form of beauty which is in the Webern but not in the Ferneyhough sonatas - at least some of them. Whatever their differences are in terms of construction, poetically, aesthetically they seem to me to birds of a feather - like The Wanderer Fantasy and the Schumann Fantasy, or Beethoven op 106 and Brahms op 5. But I’m not doubting your sincerity or correctness, in fact I’m more doubting my own ability to hear the relevant difference.
> 
> I thought that I could sense that Webern used congenial and rich fin-de-siècle melodies (hence my provocative word gemütlichkeit - admittedly used after a bottle of wine last night.) Nevertheless this afternoon, on revisiting the Ferneyhough I find that there’s no shortage of attractive melodic motifs - less lush maybe.
> 
> By the way, I think Juilliard bring out the melodic material very effectively - there are lots of versions by them (made with different line ups) - the one I listened to was an old Testament CD.
> 
> (iPad’s software really does not want me to write old Testament- I’ve never seen it be so insistant about orthography - it wants Old Testament! These annoying religious zealots are everywhere.)


OK, yes, in some of them. But where Webern skilfully implies so much, Ferneyhough needs to explicate everything, and in such an 'intellectual' hectoring manner. Webern's Op. 5 plays for 11 minutes, Ferneyhough's 1967 sonata runs for over 40 balls-tightening minutes. There's something important in that observation.


----------



## Philidor

Mandryka said:


> in the Ferneyhough sonatas


Hey! That's my next pick!


----------



## Mandryka

HenryPenfold said:


> OK, yes, in some of them. But where Webern skilfully implies so much, Ferneyhough needs to explicate everything, and in such an 'intellectual' hectoring manner. Webern's Op. 5 plays for 11 minutes, Ferneyhough's 1967 sonata runs for over 40 balls-tightening minutes. There's something important in that observation.


Why do you think there are (only) five moments in the Webern? (That's a bit like "why are there two movements in op 111?! We need Adrian Leverkühn here.)

I'm inclined to think that Ferneyhough just had more ideas than Webern -- the sonatas are full of astonishing and novel ideas. So is the Webern, but it's a quarter of the length. Had Webern just run out of ideas? Or was he actually applying some sort of compositional system which needed that amount of space and time? If so, I can't actually hear it.

By the way, I think that Ferneyhough originally wrote two long movements -- basically the size of a regular string quartet, and then thought there was something to be gained (what?) by splitting them up into short pieces. I don't know how Webern worked.

I guess it's always a hard thing, to know when to stop!

One thing that has become clearer to me is that Webern (kind of obviously) was part of the Austrian musical tradition, and you can hear it. Ferneyhough just wasn't! And that is an important difference.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> I'm sticking to talking about composers' favourite foods. Sometimes you guys go right over my head.🍕🥘🍖🌭



What I'm saying is that Webern's Wiener Schnitzel and Ferneyhough's KFC -- basically the same thing, fried meat in breadcrumbs. One's Austrian and one is Anglo-American.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> What I'm saying is that Webern's Wiener Schnitzel and Ferneyhough's KFC -- basically the same thing, fried meat in breadcrumbs. One's Austrian and one is Anglo-American.


Where does that leave Schoenberg?


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> Where does that leave Schoenberg?


 knish


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> Where does that leave Schoenberg?


That's difficult.

A first approach could find out that he was into Beef Wellington with a good Bordeaux during his tonal period (Verklärte Nacht, Pelleas, Gurrelieder, ...) and then turned into Matzah and water with op. 11. (This is not a religious opinion.)


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Why do you think there are (only) five moments in the Webern? (That's a bit like "why are there two movements in op 111?! We need Adrian Leverkühn here.)
> 
> I'm inclined to think that Ferneyhough just had more ideas than Webern -- the sonatas are full of astonishing and novel ideas. So is the Webern, but it's a quarter of the length. Had Webern just run out of ideas? Or was he actually applying some sort of compositional system which needed that amount of space and time? If so, I can't actually hear it.
> 
> By the way, I think that Ferneyhough originally wrote two long movements -- basically the size of a regular string quartet, and then thought there was something to be gained (what?) by splitting them up into short pieces. I don't know how Webern worked.
> 
> I guess it's always a hard thing, to know when to stop!
> 
> One thing that has become clearer to me is that Webern (kind of obviously) was part of the Austrian musical tradition, and you can hear it. Ferneyhough just wasn't! And that is an important difference.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Mandryka said:


> What I'm saying is that Webern's Wiener Schnitzel and Ferneyhough's KFC -- basically the same thing, fried meat in breadcrumbs. One's Austrian and one is Anglo-American.


actually this is Ferneyhough


----------



## HenryPenfold

t it.



> By the way, I think that Ferneyhough o[/Q


----------



## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> Why do you think there are (only) five moments in the Webern? (That's a bit like "why are there two movements in op 111?! We need Adrian Leverkühn here.)
> 
> 
> 
> The question doesn't arise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm inclined to think that Ferneyhough just had more ideas than Webern -- the sonatas are full of astonishing and novel ideas. So is the Webern, but it's a quarter of the length. Had Webern just run out of ideas? Or was he actually applying some sort of compositional system which needed that amount of space and time? If so, I can't actually hear it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ferneyhough does go on a bit, and as I've said, he's rather hectoring. His ideas may be important to him (and you, evidently) but what about the quantitative v the qualitative?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I think that Ferneyhough originally wrote two long movements -- basically the size of a regular string quartet, and then thought there was something to be gained (what?) by splitting them up into short pieces. I don't know how Webern worked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it's always a hard thing, to know when to stop!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> QED
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that has become clearer to me is that Webern (kind of obviously) was part of the Austrian musical tradition, and you can hear it. Ferneyhough just wasn't! And that is an important difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't understand this point.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mandryka

I mean that the start here for example has Vienna written all over it. Very expressive and indulgent music. Think of the aging Baron Ochs wiping away a tear of nostalgia in the Lerchenau fog as he thinks of how close he came to bedding Mariandel. 

Webern: 5 Movements, Op.5: II. Sehr langsam - YouTube 

(Mahler adagio)


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## HenryPenfold

Mandryka said:


> I mean that the start here for example has Vienna written all over it. Very expressive and indulgent music. Think of the aging Baron Ochs wiping away a tear of nostalgia in the Lerchenau fog as he thinks of how close he came to bedding Mariandel.
> 
> Webern: 5 Movements, Op.5: II. Sehr langsam - YouTube
> 
> (Mahler adagio)


Another bottle of wine, tonight?


----------



## Malx

Being no great fan of Wiener Schitzel or KFC for that matter, I believe the Op 5 to be like an intense 90% cocoa chocolate bar, an acquired taste, best taken in small portions - like most of Webern.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Being no great fan of Wiener Schitzel or KFC for that matter, I believe the Op 5 to be like an intense 90% cocoa chocolate bar, an acquired taste, best taken in small portions - like most of Webern.


They only come in small doses - no more needed 😉


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## HenryPenfold

Malx said:


> Being no great fan of Wiener Schitzel or KFC for that matter, I believe the Op 5 to be like an intense 90% cocoa chocolate bar, an acquired taste, best taken in small portions - like most of Webern.


I have to admit that I love KFC (when done by a proper franchise), but I only have it about twice a year. 

The best I ever had was in Portland Oregon in 1974 - delicious (yes, Portland was once a sensible city!)

Back on topic......

Listened to the other recordings on my shelf - Emerson (DG) Julliard (Sony). Surprised to only find four recordings on my shelves.

But, I followed up with the orchestral version. HvK, BPO recorded 6th December 1973 OMG! OMG! OMG!

Later tonight I shall try to get back to the string quartet version.......


----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> actually this is Ferneyhough



No I think you're wrong, at least concerning the work in question -- and to prove it, I cite the music from 34:30 right to the end.

Ferneyhough - Sonatas for String Quartet (1967) with score - YouTube

Webern-esque music, at least in parts, I'd say.

Re the point above from @HenryPenfold there's a version of op 5 for orchestra by Heinz Holliger, released on record about three months ago. Here

Symphonie, Op. 21: I. Ruhig schreitend - YouTube


----------



## Merl

Btw, the Cuarteto Casals recording on YouTube sheds some more light on this piece.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Btw, the Cuarteto Casals recording on YouTube sheds some more light on this piece.


Fabulous!

They look very young - when was this performance?


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Fabulous!
> 
> They look very young - when was this performance?


From what I can gather, 2010.


----------



## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> From what I can gather, 2010.


A gripping performance. I envy the chap in the front row middle. What a seat!

Great post, many thanks, merl 👍


----------



## Mandryka

From Hans and Rosaleen Moldenhauer's book on Webern (p248-249)

Webern's Five Movements were to be played at the 8 August concert [1922], along with compositions by Nielsen, Rangstroem, Ravel, Busoni, Szymanowski, Wellesz, Finke, and Pijper. Coming next to last on the programme, the work was played by the Amar Quartet (Licco Amar, Walter Casper, Paul Hindemith, and Maurits Frank), and it excited a riot that could be subdued only by police intervention. The disturbance was started by Wilhelm Grosz, a Viennese composer seated in one of the front rows. Across the aisle from him was the architect Adolf Loos, Webern's staunch supporter.

_It was during the quiet fourth movement that a loud outcry "furchtbar!" [terrible] was heard [related the pianist-composer Rudolph Ganz, an eye witness]. It was Herr Grosz objecting to the new music. From the other aisle came the equally forceful "Maulhalten!" [Shut up]. Grosz insisted that he had paid for his ticket and was entitled to his opinion, whereupon both men rose and went for each other. Half the audience got up and took an active part in the melee. The quartet had fled by this time and police rushed in from all sides. . . . There was hissing and applauding from the different camps, when—suddenly—Anton von Webern appeared atop the orchestra staircase, listening to the overpowering bravos of the progressives and all those who were horrified by the inexcusable incident. The battle of applause lasted at least ten minutes, when it was announced from the stage that the programme would not continue. Anyway, the hall had been ordered cleared by the guardians of the law. . . . Next day some 50 musicians were invited to hear the quartet in its entirety in a special performance in a smaller hall one hour before the evening concert. It was an unforgettable revelation.'• _


In his own report to Berg, written on 12 August after his return to Traunkirchen, Webern told his friend :


_In regard to my quartet: rendition very good, really played as music. Unfortunately, however, there was a scandal again. The entire performance was disturbed by laughter. Constant laughter. Herr Grosz the "composer") had a special share in this, so that Loos, when the battle raged between hissing and clapping, jumped on the podium and spoke roughly as follows: "This man has disturbed the performance by constant laughter. For this, he deserves to be publicly branded." I know all this only by way of report. I immediately left the hall. I finally had to appear on the podium. This I did in order to shake Loos' hand publicly for his wonderful words. My quartet was repeated the following day for a closed circle. The attending Frenchmen (Honegger, Poulenc, Wiener) and Englishman (Bliss) were very nice and expressed many cordial sentiments to me._


The international press was quick to report details of the scandal, indulging in the journalistic aspects of the affair, the correspondent for it London Daily Telegraph (g September 1922) described Webern's appearance on stage at the height of the tumult: "I never saw an angrier man: he is about 35, dry and thin as though pickled in perennial fury, and erect as a ramrod. It was amusing to see him face up to each of his enrcutors as if he were going to kill them, then relent, wring his hands, glare defiance at the audience, and rush off stiffly into the artists' room. After reporting the calamitous afair in deetai, the writer concluded : "But for these ever-recurring scenes, the school, whom no one takes seriously, except for Schoenberg, would have fizzled out long ago. The views of most of the other music critics were likewise negative -whether they concentrated on aspects of Webern's music or on the sensationalism of the affair.


----------



## Mandryka

The fourth movement, which seems to have been the last straw for the audience, has for me lost all capacity to shock. It just sounds like a nice piece of music to me! Hopefully @Merl will find a performance which can recreate sense of outrage. One where I will shout "shut up" and "rubbish"

Five Movements for String Quartet, Op. 5: No. 4, Sehr langsam - YouTube

Just browsing the book, it looks like in 1911 he was writing loads of very short pieces for string quartet, which eventually got cobbled together into different opuses -- op 5 and op 9. The principle by which they were assembled is unclear as far as I can see. 

Webern was embarrassed by the shortness of the movements (he says so in a letter.) He seemed to prefer his version for string orchestra.


----------



## StevehamNY

^ Mandryka, thank you for sharing this story, best thing I've read all day!


----------



## HerbertNorman

Merl said:


> Btw, the Cuarteto Casals recording on YouTube sheds some more light on this piece.


Thanks for sharing this one @Merl ! Great interpretation of the piece by the Casals


----------



## Mandryka

When I was getting that stuff together on the 1922 creation of op 5 yesterday I was struck by this comment of Webern in a letter to Berg


Mandryka said:


> _In regard to my quartet: rendition very good, really played as music. _


It's not clear what he means of course, what it is to play something _as music_. But there's another comment I found, this time from Felix Galimir -- he was coached by Webern when he was rehearsing op 5 and he says (Moldenhauer p 462) :



> How expressive every little miniature phrase became when he sang it.


Webern wanted it singing and expressive. This is what I find in the performances I like, Juilliard, Leipzig, Alban Berg Quartet.

(You can hear that cantabile expression in Webern's performance of the Berg violin concerto -- he would have known what Berg wanted and I'm coming to the opinion that these disciples of Schoenberg all wanted _cantabile espressivo_ (though I'm not sure Schoenberg himself did.)


----------



## Branko

Mandryka said:


> all wanted _cantabile espressivo_


I quite agree, but for me the question is what exactly is meant by expressive. Perhaps this is where the interest arises. There are a lot of instructions in the score apart from just the notes: am Steg, col legno (even in one legato phrase), verlöschend, verklingend, flüchtig, sehr zart, p-pppp, and so on. I would say at least half, if not 2/3 of the written instructions denote rather more "pale" or "brittle" expressions, not espressivo in a romantically expansive way (although the marking espressivo is found about 4 times, for brief phrases). Of course there is some substantial amount of *mf* to *fff* and some sharp accents too, but far less of this, I would say, than expressions of the other side.

Just looking at the score, this work leaves an impression of a kind of brittle, fleeting, haunted nature, with some intense measure of torment applied by the sharp and dramatic *ff* attacks, but also niggling, disquieting irritations conferred by the quieter pizzicatos, col legnos, tremolos.

Expressive - for me - therefore in an "anti-romantic" "anti-expansive" sense. Not surprising, of course, and hugely successful as a composition in that way. A masterwork. Would be interesting to compare and contrast with his Passacaglia.


----------



## Art Rock

Just listened to this CD:

*Anton Webern: Complete works for string quartet (Quartetto Italiano, Philips)*

For over 35 years I have had a difficult relationship with Webern - never appreciating him as much as others who (also) like more modern classical music do. 

The two early works on this CD (both from 1905, without opus number) are predictably easy to appreciate in their late romantic style. Then we get the *Fünf Sätze für Streichquartett *- and somehow Webern clicked with me for the first time in decades. The very short Six Bagatelles For String Quartet was a pleasure as well. And after that, even the mature String Quartet (Opus 28), arguable one of his most difficult pieces, was wonderful.

Maybe I should have tried to replay Webern's chamber music earlier - I mainly tried to connect with him via his orchestral pieces, and in general I find it easier to get to appreciate 20th century composers via their string quartets.

It is wonderful to finally appreciate this important composer. Thanks for this week's choice, Knorf!


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## Bwv 1080

I like this period for Webern and Schoenberg better than the 12-tone music of the 20s. Unfortunately there is not a Schoenberg string quartet from this period, but this piece and the 6 Bagatelles are among the best works of this free atonal period, although this remains my favorite Webern piece


----------



## Bwv 1080




----------



## Mandryka

Bwv 1080 said:


> Unfortunately there is not a Schoenberg string quartet from this period



Moldenhauer translates a bit of Alma Mahler's Meine Leben from 1915.

_Webern produced few but original compositions. He became ever more radical and Schoenberg at one time complained to me and Werfel how much he was suffering under the dangerous influence of Webern and that he needed all his strength to extricate himself from it. _


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## Knorf

Keep in mind that basically nothing Alma Mahler wrote can be considered trustworthy.


----------



## Mandryka

Branko said:


> I quite agree, but for me the question is what exactly is meant by expressive. Perhaps this is where the interest arises. There are a lot of instructions in the score apart from just the notes: am Steg, col legno (even in one legato phrase), verlöschend, verklingend, flüchtig, sehr zart, p-pppp, and so on. I would say at least half, if not 2/3 of the written instructions denote rather more "pale" or "brittle" expressions, not espressivo in a romantically expansive way (although the marking espressivo is found about 4 times, for brief phrases). Of course there is some substantial amount of *mf* to *fff* and some sharp accents too, but far less of this, I would say, than expressions of the other side.
> 
> Just looking at the score, this work leaves an impression of a kind of brittle, fleeting, haunted nature, with some intense measure of torment applied by the sharp and dramatic *ff* attacks, but also niggling, disquieting irritations conferred by the quieter pizzicatos, col legnos, tremolos.
> 
> Expressive - for me - therefore in an "anti-romantic" "anti-expansive" sense. Not surprising, of course, and hugely successful as a composition in that way. A masterwork. Would be interesting to compare and contrast with his Passacaglia.


The Bagatelles op 9 were written at the same time as op 5. Schoenberg wrote a preface for the 1924 edition of op 9 -- I can't find the text anywhere, but Malcolm MacDonald in his book on Schoenberg quotes a sentence from it, which casts a bit of light on how these people understood expressiveness:

_Think what self denial is necessary to cut a long story so short . . . to convey a novel in a single gesture, or happiness by one catch of the breath!_


----------



## Mandryka

Knorf said:


> Keep in mind that basically nothing Alma Mahler wrote can be considered trustworthy.


It is an astonishing quote, and I can imagine it's not to be trusted.


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## Mandryka

Here is Schoenberg's forward to op 9 (which is made of pieces written at much the same time as op 5)



> _Though the brevity of these pieces is a persuasive advocate for them, on the other hand that very brevity itself requires an advocate.
> 
> Consider what moderation is required to express oneself so briefly. You can stretch every glance out into a poem, every sigh into a novel. But to express a novel in a single gesture, a joy in a breath - such concentration can only be present in proportion to the absence of self-pity.
> 
> These pieces will only be understood by those who share the faith that music can say things that can only be expressed by music.
> 
> These pieces can face criticism as little as this - or any - belief.
> 
> If faith can move mountains, disbelief can deny their existence. And faith is impotent against such impotence.
> 
> Does the musician know how to play these pieces, does the listener know how to receive them? Can faithful musicians and listeners fail to surrender themselves to one another?
> 
> But what shall we do with the heathen? Fire and sword can keep them down; only believers need to be restrained.
> 
> May this silence sound for them.
> 
> Arnold Schoenberg
> Modling, June 1924_



There is some debate about this translation, particularly about the phrase self-pity. The German is 



> _Man bedenke, welche Enthaltsamkeit dazu gehört, sich so kurz zu fassen. Jeder Blick läßt sich zu einem Gedicht, jeder Seufzer zu einem Roman ausdehnen. Aber: einen Roman durcheine einzige Geste, ein Glück durch ein einzigers Aufatmen ausdrücken: solche Konzentration findet sich nur, wo Wehleidikeit in entsprechendem maße fehlt _


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## Malx

Due to the works brevity I have listened to more recordings of this piece than the vast majority of quartets selected for the thread. This immersion has confirmed that I totally enjoy the sounds created by Webern, which is undoubtedly helped by the concise nature of the composition, but I am not really any closer to understanding the structure of the piece - clearly a deficiency that can be laid at my door. Having said that I do get pleasure from the piece which is after all one of the main reasons for listening to music, is it not?

One thing that occurred to me as the weeks listening progressed was that I heard the piece not as a traditional quartet but almost, if you will forgive the analogy, as a condensed version of Duke Bluebeard's Castle, five sections with their own atmosphere similar to the various doors being opened in Bartoks opera - time for me to leave the room!

FWIW I listened to over a dozen different recordings and the ones I thought worked best for me were, in no particular order, the Leipziger, Emerson, Arditti & Diotima.

Enjoyable week - thanks Knorf.


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## Mandryka

Here is Schoenberg's forward to op 9 (which is made of pieces written at much the same time as op 5)



> _Though the brevity of these pieces is a persuasive advocate for them, on the other hand that very brevity itself requires an advocate.
> 
> Consider what moderation is required to express oneself so briefly. You can stretch every glance out into a poem, every sigh into a novel. But to express a novel in a single gesture, a joy in a breath - such concentration can only be present in proportion to the absence of self-pity.
> 
> These pieces will only be understood by those who share the faith that music can say things that can only be expressed by music.
> 
> These pieces can face criticism as little as this - or any - belief.
> 
> If faith can move mountains, disbelief can deny their existence. And faith is impotent against such impotence.
> 
> Does the musician know how to play these pieces, does the listener know how to receive them? Can faithful musicians and listeners fail to surrender themselves to one another?
> 
> But what shall we do with the heathen? Fire and sword can keep them down; only believers need to be restrained.
> 
> May this silence sound for them.
> 
> Arnold Schoenberg
> Modling, June 1924_


I am advised that the German "Wehleidigkeit" does not mean self-pity (that would be "Selbstmitleid" apparently.) It rather means the opposite of toughness, being overly sensitive to pain and quick to complain. Hypersensitivity in English, maybe. Schoenberg is saying that compressing the emotional content à la Webern is only possible if you're not easily emotionally overwhelmed.


It's really interesting because it shows that Schoenberg did not see Webern's music as abstract , like (arguably) its development into the serialism of Stockhausen and Boulez. On the contrary, he saw him as writing music which was the sublimation of Mahler and Richard Strauss. Which is what I was trying to say on Monday and Sunday.


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## Branko

Mandryka said:


> Schoenberg is saying that compressing the emotional content à la Webern is only possible if you're not easily emotionally overwhelmed.


I can follow that thought and I respect it within its mental construct (as far as I understand this). Yet when I listen to recordings, the op 5 appears to me quite highly strung. What occurs to me is that, for me, all that compression resulted in something like "the-princess-and-the-pea-effect". Which in no way contradicts what you have been saying about the desired expressiveness, but supports it.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Here is Schoenberg's forward to op 9 (which is made of pieces written at much the same time as op 5)
> 
> _Consider what moderation is required to express oneself so briefly. You can stretch every glance out into a poem, every sigh into a novel. But to express a novel in a single gesture, a joy in a breath - such concentration can only be present in proportion to the absence of self-pity._
> 
> I am advised that the German "Wehleidigkeit" does not mean self-pity (that would be "Selbstmitleid" apparently.) It rather means the opposite of toughness, being overly sensitive to pain and quick to complain. Hypersensitivity in English, maybe. Schoenberg is saying that compressing the emotional content à la Webern is only possible if you're not easily emotionally overwhelmed.


Here is an alternative translation of the Schoenberg preface:

_Bear in mind the degree of restraint demanded for such brevity of utterance. Every glance may be expanded to a poem, every sigh to a novel. But expressing a novel by a single gesture, happiness by a single breath – such distillation is only to be attained through a proportionate absence of self-indulgence._


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## Mandryka

Here's The Kolisch Quartet, Rudolf Kolisch knew Webern pretty well I think, he must have known what Webern wanted.

5 Movements, Op. 5: I. Heftig bewegt • Anton Webern, Pro Arte Quartet (spotify.com)

and for a point of comparison here's various people working with Robert Craft

5 Movements for String Quartet, Op. 5: No. 1, Heftig bewegt • Anton Webern, Juilliard String Quartet (spotify.com)

And for a point of contrast here's Leipziger

Five Movements for String Quartet, Op. 5: I. Heftig bewegt • Anton Webern, Leipziger Streichquartett (spotify.com)

One interesting one I've heard was Hagen -- I can't find it online, a Myrios CD.


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## Mandryka

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Here is an alternative translation of the Schoenberg preface:
> 
> _Bear in mind the degree of restraint demanded for such brevity of utterance. Every glance may be expanded to a poem, every sigh to a novel. But expressing a novel by a single gesture, happiness by a single breath – such distillation is only to be attained through a proportionate absence of self-indulgence._


I was told that _wehleidig _is used for sensitive children who cry easily, and that a child that could be comforted quickly could still be described as _wehleidig _because it is so easily moved to crying or complaining. I thought it was like the French expression _à fleur de peau. _

The word whiny was suggested -- whine, wail, woe . . . ._wehleidig . . . _oy vey!


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## RICK RIEKERT

Mandryka said:


> Here's The Kolisch Quartet, Rudolf Kolisch knew Webern pretty well I think, he must have known what Webern wanted.


Maybe. But knowing the composer is no guarantee that the performer knows what he or she wants. Webern insisted on lyricism, nuance, rubato, sensitivity, and both emotional and intellectual understanding in performance of music. Kolisch also knew Schoenberg and played his music which, however, suffered at the overly cerebral Kolisch’s hands. In a letter dated 27 July 1932 Schoenberg cautioned his brother-in-law Kolisch against “unweaving” his musical works by perceiving them analytically in terms of their constituent parts, at the expense of "all their poetry". According to Felix Galimir, ''I think this is what caused the greatest damage [to Schoenberg’s music] - that his 12-tone theory is so much talked about that one overlooks the music. Like with Kolisch. Whenever Schoenberg finished something, he gave Kolisch the score. And the first thing Kolisch did was to find the row. This made Schoenberg absolutely furious.”


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## Allegro Con Brio

Webern's delicate, precise pointillistic music has really grown on me through the years, and as always I enjoyed the experience of hanging on and savoring every sound in this little work. He has a remarkable ability to convey sumptuous tone colors, melodies, and harmonies even in his non-orchestral works. The first movement took me aback as it was definitely the most energetic thing I'd ever heard from a composer who I usually associate with very calm, meditative music. The rest of the work was more in the vein I expected. Really liking the final movement especially with its bell-like alternation of high and low pitches. For me, this is very smooth listening with dissonances that intrigue and tantalize. Very nice pick.

*Malx *will pick next!

Malx
starthrower
SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## StevehamNY

I think I'm finally starting to appreciate the concise immediacy of this piece, if I really stop and listen carefully. (This is no kind of background music!)

Looking at the albums that this piece appears on, I shouldn't be that surprised to find not one but two albums featuring this same painting by Austrian symbolist Gustav Klimt:


















More surprising is the pairing with Haydn on this album by the Amaryllis Quartett, who were apparently going through their ABBA phase?









Or on this album by the Telegraph Quartet, who show more interest in this lightbulb than any four people showing interest in anything, ever.









Or by the Cuarteto Quiroga, who thankfully did not include a piano quintet on this album because can you imagine the carnage?


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## Knorf

Great comments about the Webern! A metaphor I like for Webern is distillation. As whisky is (more or less) a distillation of beer, and brandy of wine, Webern's compositions are like a distillation of the most intimate and emotion-connected moments in Romantic music: utmost expression is distilled to a musical form revealing the greatest intensity. 

Of course if you don't like things like whisk(e)y or brandy, this metaphor might not work for you, but it does for me.


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## HenryPenfold

Finishing off this week's listen with back to back Emerson and Julliard. It's been a great week!

I've been listening to op. 5 both naked and clothed for over 30 years and I never tire of it. in fact there is rarely a month that has gone by when it has not reached my turntable.

Reading through the posts, I'm resisting the urge to get the Artis set, not least because of the fabulous _fin de siècle_ artwork!

Edit: Punctuation!


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## starthrower

That distillation factor is what draws me in as a listener and helps me focus more acutely on the music. But I only managed to listen to the Julliard recording this week. My Artis, and Schoenberg Quartet Webern CDs are in a tote somewhere. The Artis Quartett also recorded some excellent accounts of the Zemlinsky quartets. I did manage to locate my CD of nos.3 & 4 for a revisit.


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## Knorf

I have the Artis Quartett Wien Zemlinsky recordings, and yeah, they're really excellent. 

As for Webern, I actually don't own many recordings of his quartets, but of all I've heard including several others, they're uniformly outstanding. 

I'm very glad my choice this week went over so well, and prompted so many insightful comments. Thanks everyone!

ETA: we've not much discussed Webern's own 1929 string orchestra version of Op. 5, but I do think it works really well.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Webern is awesome!


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## Carmina Banana

There has been a lot of good commentaries and dialogs and I don’t really have a lot to add. Like others, I am entranced by this music. 

I read recently that the brevity of this music is due in part to the jettisoning of tonality. The increasing length of symphonies by romantic composers was testing the durability of this construct, putting so much pressure on it that it eventually ripped and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. Composers started writing atonal music and suddenly there was no need to write a 45-minute-long work. I don’t know if I am totally in on that idea, but it is interesting. 

What I do believe is that many composers are miniaturists by nature. They thrive in the world of perfect, short gems of creation while others feel the need to write large scale pieces that claw and scratch their way inelegantly toward the the truth. 

In all forms of art that I can think of, we tend to celebrate the ones who struggle and produce large things more than ones who make small things. Maybe something to do with the Protestant work ethic?


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## Malx

Thanks Knorf - how do I follow a selection that has generated great interest and detailed discussion all week - I've no idea so I'll just go with something I've been considering for sometime.

*Edmund Rubbra - String Quartet No 3.*

I thought I'd like to introduce another composer who hasn't featured so far in the thread.

Rubbra was a 20th century English composer whose style is firmly rooted in the tonal idiom whilst not being stuck too much in the past.
The third quartet is in three movements which the composer himself suggests flow through almost as one. Composed in 1963 for the Allegri Quartet who played the first performance at the Cheltenham Festival the following year - perhaps oddly I can find no record of them ever recording the piece.
There are three recordings I am aware of, the Sterling Quartet were the first to record all four Rubbra quartets, there are also recordings by the Dante Quartet and when it comes to British quartets the ubiquitous Maggini Quartet. The latter two are found on streaming sites I'm not so sure about the Sterling who I couldn't find when looking for them the other day.

This work will be a major contrast to the Webern but I hope it will be rewarding in a different way for all who give it a listen. 

Here are links to the three movements of the Dante recording on YouTube;


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## HenryPenfold

A most agreeable choice, Malx 👍

I am rather keen on Rubbra and I have attended a performance of his music that included this quartet at the Royal College of Music a few years back.

The recordings on my shelf are Dante and Maggini. Quite different takes, equally rewarding as far as I'm concerned.

Since I've not listened to this work in quite a long time, I'm very much looking forward to getting 'stuck-in to it' over the coming week.


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## HerbertNorman

Nice choice @Malx , I've listened to this quartet quite recently. Rubbra's String Quartet output in general appeals to me.


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## starthrower

I'm tempted to give the Dante Quartet a listen but my British Quartets box is due to arrive in a couple of days so I'll go straight to the Rubbra disc when it gets here.


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## Merl

Nice choice, Malx. I have the Sterling set (which I've had for years) but I'll be interested in hearing the other recordings as I've never been totally convinced by the Sterling. Btw, I've always thought of this quartet as being autobiographical as some notes to this quartet point to it being composed in a period of 'immense upheaval'. As Rubbra's marriage finally fell apart at the end of the 50s I can't help think that the 1st movement represents the dissolution of his marriage, the 2nd, adagio, the loneliness and regret after it ended and the 3rd movement freedom or a new love. If you're a Rubbra fanatic please tell me if I'm wrong. All Rubbra said about it was that it was, 
"... prefixed by a quotation from St Thomas Aquinas: ‘Song is the leap of mind in the eternal breaking-out into sound.’ " Rubbra later explained further,
"... Song, lyrical song, is indeed the motivating force of this work."


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Nice choice, Malx. I have the Sterling set (which I've had for years) but I'll be interested in hearing the other recordings as I've never been totally convinced by the Sterling. Btw, I've always thought of this quartet as being autobiographical as some notes to this quartet point to it being composed in a period of 'immense upheaval'. As Rubbra's marriage finally fell apart at the end of the 50s I can't help think that the 1st movement represents the dissolution of his marriage, the 2nd, adagio, the loneliness and regret after it ended and the 3rd movement freedom or a new love. If you're a Rubbra fanatic please tell me if I'm wrong. All Rubbra said about it was that it was,
> "... prefixed by a quotation from St Thomas Aquinas: ‘Song is the leap of mind in the eternal breaking-out into sound.’ " Rubbra later explained further,
> "... Song, lyrical song, is indeed the motivating force of this work."


Wow! I'm impressed with your direct quotes from Saint Thomas Aquinas and Rubbra - the rest of us read it on the Music Web International review site. 😉

I don't know if you are right about it being autobiographical, but from what I've been told, Rubbra was incredibly callous in his attitude and behaviour towards the break-up of his marriage and seems to have acted with no conscience whatsoever.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Wow! I'm impressed with your direct quotes from Saint Thomas Aquinas and Rubbra - the rest of us read it on the Music Web International review site. 😉
> 
> I don't know if you are right about it being autobiographical, but from what I've been told, Rubbra was incredibly callous in his attitude and behaviour towards the break-up of his marriage and seems to have acted with no conscience whatsoever.


Lol, you're a sarcy sod, Henry. That's why I love you. From what you said about Rubbra I'm now doubtful about my guess. Btw, I got the quotes from another site, not Musicweb (I didn't realise they were there as well - they must have nicked them too). 🤭


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## Malx

I agree with Merl's comment that the Sterling recording he has may not be the best available of Rubbra's quartets including the third. I too have that set and for quite a while I wasn't overly impressed by the quartets but felt there was something in them worthy of investigation. When I got around to listening to the Dante and Maggini recordings it was as if a veil had been lifted that allowed me to hear the piece with much more clarity and detail.

So if the Sterling recording isn't available for comparison, don't fret too much - in my opinion everyone should be more than adequately served listening to the other two recordings.


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## Merl

Listening to all 3 recordings over the past few days I can only concur with what Malx said. Much as the Sterling performance has grown on me (it is recommendable) its not on the level of the other two, no matter how committed they are. I'll blog my thoughts in the next few days. Btw, I've been reading as much as I can about Mr Rubbra, over the past few days, and it seems that he was a bit of a lothario with a rather colourful and turbulent personal life. I think it's safe to say my original thoughts on the quartet may not be right but I still think that this quartet may have something to do with his private life. Unfortunately theres not enough info available to find the true meaning and Rubbra s explanation hardly sheds any more light on the subject. Whatever, this is a fine quartet. Perhaps I should just forget looking for meaning and just continue to enjoy it.


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## HenryPenfold

I started out, some years ago now, with the Dante and was more than happy with the performances for a long while. Then I couldn't find the CDs and thought I'd lost them so I set about replacing them. The Maggini Quartet discs had recently been released so I bought them instead, with a view to replace the Dante in due course (turns out I'd only misplaced them).

Having listened to both sets over several years and quite often this week, I must say the Maggini set is superior - in my opinion, of course. They seem to inject more life into the music, both in terms of forward momentum and phrasing. I also perceive a greater sense of fluidity between each movement, which greatly improves the overall feel of the work. I also think the Naxos recording is a little clearer and sharper, and preferable to my ears.

The Dante Quartet bring out some of the darker aspects of the music, particularly in the first movement, but I do think they could be a little more energetic in the finale. I wouldn't want to be without this set, though - I really enjoy their more demurred approach and I find them an easier repeated listen (if that makes any sense).

I only heard the Sterling once on the radio and convinced myself on that single listen that the recording I had at the time (Dante) was better!


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## Merl

Here's my blog post on this quartet. Please bear in mind I wrote this before I read Henry's post above. Lol









Rubbra - String Quartet 3 op.112 (SQ review)


Rubbra completed his 3rd String Quartet in 1963 under a commission from the Allegri Quartet, who gave the first performance of the piece at the 1964 Cheltenham Festival. The quartet was written during a time of "immense personal changes" for Rubbra (I have no idea what these were but after...




www.talkclassical.com


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## Allegro Con Brio

I'll post my thoughts on the Rubbra tomorrow. For now, just wanted to remind *starthrower *that he is up next.


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## sbmonty

Really enjoyed this composition. Nice choice!


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## StevehamNY

I know this isn't true in other parts of the world, but at least a few of us have probably been distracted this week with all the prep work, Thanksgiving Day eating, and then of course the recovery. But I just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed this new piece from a new composer I haven't heard before, and beyond that to express my gratitude for everyone here.

And please keep a good thought for the Michigan Wolverines tomorrow, even if you wouldn't otherwise care about football! (The other football, I mean.)


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## Merl

StevehamNY said:


> And please keep a good thought for the Michigan Wolverines tomorrow, even if you wouldn't otherwise care about football! (*The other football, I mean*.)


Oh, you mean handegg! 🤭


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Oh, you mean handegg! 🤭


Yes. it's a game that colonials play whereby they cannot resist the urge to pick the ball* up with their hands, despite the obvious name of the game FOOTBALL!

* It's not even a ball. How these people came so far is beyond me.


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## starthrower

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'll post my thoughts on the Rubbra tomorrow. For now, just wanted to remind *starthrower *that he is up next.


I had chosen a different British quartet but since we're listening to Rubbra this week I'll pick something else tomorrow. I enjoyed the entire Rubbra disc of nos.1,3 & 4 by the Maggini's. Now that it's in the collection I'll be glad to return to it. I'm impressed with a number of his symphonies as well.


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## Malx

Thanks to all who listened and passed comment on the Rubbra.
It was probably not radical enough to elicit comment from all our regulars but I thought it would be a new composer for many and a contrast to last weeks Webern. Glad to hear most of the responses were positive which I find encouraging for the great number of largely unsung quartets from British composers.

For me after repeated listens to all three recordings this week there is one that stands out from the other two - the Maggini's.

I seem to be unlucky to be up for selecting on weeks with major competition for attention, World Cup & US Thanksgiving Holiday this time round - I also recall a few picks back being on point when the servers were down on the site, that certainly didn't help! No matter, its simply the luck of the draw and as I have said before, I have enjoyed my listening this week.

I'll look forward to starthrower's selection for the upcoming week.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I certainly don't require a piece of music to be "radical" or "innovative" in order to thoroughly enjoy it, as I did this one. Rubbra has a nice Neo-Romantic voice and a keen little continuous structural conception in this quartet, and he carries it off well. The first movement starts off sounding like standard late-German-Romanic fare, but it did capture my attention and the music goes on to assume a great variety of complexions as the movement progresses. I struggled a bit more to stay engaged throughout the second movement, but part of that may have been what I perceived as a rather slack performance by the Magginis. Though it's curious that Rubbra didn't decide to include a conventional finale, ending on the scherzo-like piece lends the work a bit of quirkiness and it certainly is fun and engaging as is. Not a groundbreaking piece nor necessarily a new favorite, but it is accomplished music that goes down smoothly and has an effective compressed narrative arch.


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## StevehamNY

So the funny-shaped football game went even better than I could have hoped (Michigan 45, Ohio State 23, playing in the snake pit). But as for the round-shaped football match on Friday, remind me again how that one went?


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## maestro267

Wrong channel, surely. No idea what that's got to do with string quartets.


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## Merl

maestro267 said:


> Wrong channel, surely. No idea what that's got to do with string quartets.


It has nothing to do with SQs just the usual silly banter we have on this thread. 😜


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## starthrower

This week's selection was commissioned and premiered by the Kronos Quartet back in 1996 and has been recorded more recently by the young Korean ensemble, Esme Quartet, for Alpha Classics. ParaMetaString for string quartet and tape was composed by Unsuk Chin. The four movement work is about 20 minutes in length. This link provides the composer's notes on the quartet. Unsuk Chin - ParaMetaString (boosey.com)
You can listen to the piece on YouTube or Spotify.


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## Merl

starthrower said:


> This week's selection was commissioned and premiered by the Kronos Quartet back in 1996 and has been recorded more recently by the young Korean ensemble, Esme Quartet, for Alpha Classics. ParaMetaString for string quartet and tape was composed by Unsuk Chin. The four movement work is about 20 minutes in length. This link provides the composer's notes on the quartet. Unsuk Chin - ParaMetaString (boosey.com)
> You can listen to the piece on YouTube or Spotify.


I like this piece. What I'll say is that if you haven't got that Esme recording do yourself a favour and grab it. The award-winning Korean quartet are superb and the sound from Claves is stunning. Its worth having the disc for the brilliant account of the Beethoven 1st Quartet. Nice choice, ST. 

Btw, for an explanation of what it's all about this is what the composer said (it saves you clicking on ST's link above)

"ParaMetaString is a study based on string sounds. Its four movements can be characterized as follows:

The first movement uses blocks of sound from artificially condensed tremolo sounds. While these blocks are heard in alternation, a subliminal rhythmic structure is gradually established, creating an expanding time structure. Layers of sound which would be covered up by the sound of unmanipulated strings are brought into the foreground through a filtering process.
The second movement revolves around the study of the structure of harmonics. The col legno beats of the cello on the note C, which gradually become slower and heavier, are used as an ostinato bass. In contrast to this, a structure of harmonics unfolds, the rhythm of which is divided up into smaller and smaller units. These two lines develop in a complementary way – the slower the bass, the finer the division of the trebles.
The third movement focusses on the diverse micro modulations within a cello note that slowly glides downwards, and, in contrast to this, on the ‘fluctuating’ fifths within the upward modulations of the other strings. The key note is D.
The fourth movement is, in essence, the development of the first. The rhythmic patterns of the first movement are used to create the rhythm of balls falling down and bouncing back, while the tempo increases and gravitation reverses its direction.

ParaMetaString was commissioned by the Kronos Quartet. The original string sounds were recorded by Eunryung Chang (cello) and Matthias Leupold (violin). The tape recording was produced in the electronic studio of the Technical University, Berlin (under the direction of Folkmar Hein), between November 1995 and April 1996."

Unsuk Chin


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## Philidor

Sorry, there was not too much time last week for the Rubbra ... however, I appreciated this quartet very much.

Maybe it is not the most progressive and revolutionary idiom, but to my best understanding it was a unique one that I liked. The quartet encouraged to look into Rubbra's symphonies, concertos, masses and other chamber music.

Thank you for picking this one!


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## Malx

I note the Esme is a 'World Premier Recording'. With it having only been released in 2020 am I correct in assuming there are no other recordings available for comparison - I couldn't find any after an admittedly cursory search.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> This week's selection was commissioned and premiered by the Kronos Quartet back in 1996 and has been recorded more recently by the young Korean ensemble, Esme Quartet, for Alpha Classics. ParaMetaString for string quartet and tape was composed by Unsuk Chin. The four movement work is about 20 minutes in length. This link provides the composer's notes on the quartet. Unsuk Chin - ParaMetaString (boosey.com)
> You can listen to the piece on YouTube or Spotify.


Good choice Starthrower 👍 

I don't know this piece, but it looks very interesting.


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## starthrower

Malx said:


> I note the Esme is a 'World Premier Recording'. With it having only been released in 2020 am I correct in assuming there are no other recordings available for comparison - I couldn't find any after an admittedly cursory search.


It does seem odd that it went unrecorded for over 20 years after being premiered by Kronos. But I haven't found any details as to why Kronos or other quartets didn't record the work.


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## Merl

I really enjoy that first movement with those turbulent tremelos and the final movement, where the tremelos return but in a more agitated way (after the col legno opening).


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## HerbertNorman

Thanks for that one @starthrower  
I didn't know the piece , but I'm glad I do now...enthralling piece of music.

I enjoyed the Rubbra last week !
Getting to know something new is a different vibe. Cheers


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## Malx

I've listened to the Chin piece four times this week so far and am now going to give it a rest and hopefully come back to it later in the week.
I'm very much in two minds about the work. Listening with an open mind I hear a lot of interesting sounds put together which combine the strings with the taped elements better than I may have imagined, but and unfortunately for me its a sizeable but, I find the panning effects of the tape distracting - effects I associate more with early seventies prog rock (and even then I found it distracting unless you were trying to show off your stereo system) - this panning I found most noticeable at the start of the fourth movement.
Maybe after a break of a couple of days I'll hear it differently.


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## Knorf

Unsuk Chin is an awesome composer; great choice!


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## Allegro Con Brio

The piece is not really my cup pf tea, but I'm a bit surprised there isn't more discussion of it this week. There are lots of really interesting sounds throughout and some creative yet restrained and tasteful use of electronics. It reminded me a bit of Saariaho, who uses electronics in a similar way. I don't usually listen to this kind of music anymore unless for this exercise, so it's always nice to be a bit jolted out of my comfort zone. But I did like how Chin mixed in plenty of consonances and more accessible moments, and the finale was quite captivating and fun.

*SearsPoncho *is up next, but he hasn't been seen in a while—I hope he's OK and is just taking a break. Henry, can you be on standby in case we don't hear from him?

SearsPoncho
HenryPenfold
Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## Carmina Banana

I love listening to this piece. Unlike Malx, I never tire of panning. I should really listen once on headphones and really get the full impact of that. There are beautiful sounds and effects that I want to listen to over and over. 
If I were to be critical, I might say that it sounds a bit like a survey of sounds one can make with whatever setup this is rather than a "composition." This will likely change if I get to know the composer more. I'm only saying this is part of my first impression. 
The tempo markings seem almost humorously traditional compared to the actual piece. 
I am definitely earmarking this composer as someone to find out more about.


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## starthrower

Carmina Banana said:


> If I were to be critical, I might say that it sounds a bit like a survey of sounds one can make with whatever setup this is rather than a "composition." This will likely change if I get to know the composer more. I'm only saying this is part of my first impression.


I had the same reaction so initially I had decided against choosing this work.. But after I listened a couple more times it seemed to hang together more coherently as a piece. For their Alpha CD I wish they had chosen another modern work instead of the Beethoven No.1. It seems like an odd grouping along with a Frank Bridge piece.


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## Bwv 1080

It was a cool piece, I usually cringe at descriptions that talk about movements being about exploring some narrow instrumental technique, but this held together well


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## HenryPenfold

I've been immersing myself in Mahler, Bruckner, Tippett and Vaughan Williams over the last weeks, not least because I've attended concerts thereof, so I have only listened to this quartet twice - but I love it and I hope I can find time to return to it in the very near future.

My thoughts - a bit random:

When I started wandering from the beaten path of classical music some years ago, it was music like this, which I call avant garde (rightly or wrongly), that really excited me. I didn't know my journey through classical music would bring me into contact with such radical (to my ears) music. It was just like that first time I came home as schoolboy with a copy of Tangerine Dream's 'Zeit' and was blown away with the possibilities of soundworlds that I never knew existed. This quartet is absolutely an example of that, and whilst my take firmly locates this work in the past, the idea of 'dated' does not enter my mind at all.

As I type, I'm now in my third listen-through and my enjoyment level is increasing enormously!

The work is, imho, beautifully balanced with two wonderfully composed inner movements that mix 'provocation' and serenity, and two rather more texturally vigorous and assertive outer movements. But I totally agree with Malx &al regarding the opening of the fourth movement. It almost ruins the movement and does rather upset the incredible mood set up by the preceding andante (the strongest movement of all, imho) and the one I enjoy most. However, as the movement progresses, I get what Chin is doing and I think it works.

My only regret is that I've been unable to throw the sort of time at it this week that I would have liked to.

I rate this work very highly and I thank *Starthrower* for introducing me to such a fine piece of music.

P.S. I cannot pass comment on the performance as I personally have no comparator.

P.P.S. As I finish this post, the album has moved onto the Frank Bridge Novelettes and I'll say it's a very fine performance. I understand the Beethoven is very good too - what an inspired release!


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *SearsPoncho *is up next, but he hasn't been seen in a while—I hope he's OK and is just taking a break. Henry, can you be on standby in case we don't hear from him?


Hi ACB

I'm afraid I'm not able to pull anything together today for this. 

Henry Penfold


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## SearsPoncho

This week's string quartet: *Janacek's String Quartet #1 ("Kreutzer Sonata")*
The recording I listen to: Talich Quartet

Composed in eight days in praise of women and love, Janacek was under the spell of the woman who inspired the Second String Quartet when he composed this little gem in 1923. Its artistic lineage includes Tolstoy and Beethoven. Not too shabby. Is it programmatic? Is it a blow by blow account of the details of Tolstoy's short novel, or a more generalized rendering of the emotions presented in the tragic story? Janacek provided this assertion in a letter he wrote to a young woman (Janacek sure got around): _"I was imagining a poor woman, tormented and run down, just like the one the Russian writer Tolstoy describes in his Kreutzer Sonata._"

Regardless of the inspiration and any extra-musical references, good music must stand on its own feet, and this one surely does. As concise as a Haydn quartet and not quite as emotionally schizophrenic as its big brother, the "Intimate Letters," the music is unmistakably Janacek. His distinctive voice produces some remarkable sonorities and textures from the opening chords, and the opening motif returns to provide the conclusion to the whole piece. 

Comparative listening is especially helpful with this one. I've heard different recordings that sound like different compositions! This recording by the Hagen Quartet is quite different from the recording I listen to, by the Talich Quartet: 




Can you identify any Beethoven references in the Janacek? Here's Beethoven's truly incredible "Kreutzer" Violin Sonata:


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## Kreisler jr

Great choice, although I find it more schizophrenic and breathless and the 2nd quartet more "rounded 
And I always thought that the relation to the Beethoven was completely spurious and I do have doubts about the relation to the Tolstoy novella (I once attended a concert event where they played both pieces or at least parts thereof, don't remember exactly, combined with readings from Tolstoy). Maybe it's a love-hate relationship*, but the general tendency of that Tolstoy novella is misanthropic, misogynous and misomusic. As I understand it, Tolstoy was a bit of womanizer, especially when younger, but later filled with deep regrets and self-loathing for is uncontrollable horniness (There is an even more brutal novella "The devil" written at about the same time as Kreutzer Sonata) , I am not quite sure about his relation to music.


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## Merl

Great choice, SP. Both of Janacek's quartets are excellent but the 2nd is a huge favourite of mine with this one it's underrated little brother. There are stacks of recordings of this quartet and I've already done this one in my blogs but I'll still have a relisten to see if I missed any. As regards the Talich Quartet this was a special quartet for them and they recorded it 3 times (1985 Calliope, Supraphon 1990 and 2004 La Dolce Vita) and each recording is pretty different (I have a special affinity for one of these, in particular). If you are a BBC magazine reader you will know that apart from their commercial release the BBC recorded the Pavel Haas live, back in 2011 (at St Lukes in London) and gave this cd away with its magazine, last year. All I'll say is that you need to hear that CD (pic below) ! Nuff said.


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> I rate this work very highly and I thank *Starthrower* for introducing me to such a fine piece of music.


Henry, thanks for taking time to write that post during your busy week. Hopefully I'll get around to picking up their Alpha CD in the coming year. On to Janacek, a composer I really enjoy! I have the Takacs, and Schoenberg Quartet recordings which I'll listen to this week.


----------



## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> Great choice, SP. Both of Janacek's quartets are excellent but the 2nd is a huge favourite of mine with this one it's underrated little brother. There are stacks of recordings of this quartet and I've already done this one in my blogs but I'll still have a relisten to see if I missed any. As regards the Talich Quartet this was a special quartet for them and they recorded it 3 times (1985 Calliope, Supraphon 1990 and 2004 La Dolce Vita) and each recording is pretty different (I have a special affinity for one of these, in particular). If you are a BBC magazine reader you will know that apart from their commercial release the BBC recorded the Pavel Haas live, back in 2011 (at St Lukes in London) and gave this cd away with its magazine, last year. All I'll say is that you need to hear that CD (pic below) ! Nuff said.


Merl, is that Pavel Haas recording commercially available other than through purchasing the magazine?


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> Merl, is that Pavel Haas recording commercially available other than through purchasing the magazine?


No. You can pick it up on ebay, though (even though it's not supposed to be for resale).


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## HerbertNorman

Hey nice choice @SearsPoncho !!! I love the 2 Janacek string quartets ...
I own the Pavel Haas recording, which I like very very much, and I really value the Tákàcs Quartet's interpretation of the piece too. Looking forward to it!!!

I thought the Chin last week was a nice discovery, I don't perticularly go for such kind of string quartet output usually, but that's the great thing about being part of a community of music lovers. Locally I regularly go to the concerts the conservatory organises for its students and there you get to know new pieces too ... same thing happens to me on here .


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## Philidor

Sorry for being quite busy last week. I listened to ParaMetaString several times, I was amazed by the sounds and unusual colours. I will need some time to grow into the piece. However: Great choice!


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## maestro267

Holy cow the sounds in this Janacek quartet?!!!! It sounds positively AVANT-GARDE!!!!


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Great choice, SP. Both of Janacek's quartets are excellent but the 2nd is a huge favourite of mine with this one it's underrated little brother. There are stacks of recordings of this quartet and I've already done this one in my blogs but I'll still have a relisten to see if I missed any. As regards the Talich Quartet this was a special quartet for them and they recorded it 3 times (1985 Calliope, Supraphon 1990 and 2004 La Dolce Vita) and each recording is pretty different (I have a special affinity for one of these, in particular). If you are a BBC magazine reader you will know that apart from their commercial release the BBC recorded the Pavel Haas live, back in 2011 (at St Lukes in London) and gave this cd away with its magazine, last year. All I'll say is that you need to hear that CD (pic below) ! Nuff said.


I had a listen to this old BBC music mag performance. They are clearly well into the vibe but it just confirmed my suspicion that the vibe ain’t me. It just seems like an overblown romantic effusion, like having a drunk teenager emote in the living room.

I want it played by English gentlemen, Janacek with a stiff upper lip. No passion please, I’m British.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> I had a listen to this old BBC music mag performance. They are clearly well into the vibe but it just confirmed my suspicion that the vibe ain’t me. It just seems like an overblown romantic effusion, like having a drunk teenager emote in the living room.
> 
> I want it played by English gentlemen, Janacek with a stiff upper lip. No passion please, I’m British.


Although it was recorded in 2011 the BBC disc isn't 'old' at all. It was only released this year. Are you sure that we're talking about the same disc cos this Pavel Haas recording certainly isn't buttoned-up. Having seen the Pavel Haas live and heard all their recordings I'm not sure they're capable of being 'stiff'. 😲


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> Although it was recorded in 2011 the BBC disc isn't 'old' at all. It was only released this year. Are you sure that we're talking about the same disc cos this Pavel Haas recording certainly isn't buttoned-up. Having seen the Pavel Haas live and heard all their recordings I'm not sure they're capable of being 'stiff'. 😲


The Pavel Haas isn’t stiff, on the contrary, they are too passionate for me - I want one which is buttoned up.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> The Pavel Haas isn’t stiff, on the contrary, they are too passionate for me - I want one which is buttoned up.


Tis the giddiness of youth.


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## Kreisler jr

Mandryka said:


> The Pavel Haas isn’t stiff, on the contrary, they are too passionate for me - I want one which is buttoned up.


I haven't got around it yet but from the time when we had the 2nd quartet I recall the 1985 Talich as comparably relaxed (as they are on the same disc, I think I listened to both pieces back then). Unless I am overlooking anything, I have only one non-Czech recording, Vogler/RCA. Otherwise Smetana 1966 (Testament), 1976 (supraphon), Talich 1985. Skampa 2001. I lack the Pavel Haas, as their Janacek 2 is coupled with one of their namesakes quartets.


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## Mandryka

Kreisler jr said:


> I haven't got around it yet but from the time when we had the 2nd quartet I recall the 1985 Talich as comparably relaxed (as they are on the same disc, I think I listened to both pieces back then). Unless I am overlooking anything, I have only one non-Czech recording, Vogler/RCA. Otherwise Smetana 1966 (Testament), 1976 (supraphon), Talich 1985. Skampa 2001. I lack the Pavel Haas, as their Janacek 2 is coupled with one of their namesakes quartets.



Yes it is, and so is The Schoenberg Quartet. I just don’t think it’s good as music. Played with passion it seems almost embarrassingly adolescent, and played more objectively it’s like . . . not interesting


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## StevehamNY

I'm enjoying the hell out of this quartet, SP, and I totally agree when you say, "I've heard different recordings that sound like different compositions!" I think that's true more so than any other quartet I've heard here.

I have the Panocha and that's been my favorite so far... but then I heard the Prazak for the first time this week. (Haven't heard the Takacs yet because, as you know, Hyperion is not down with streaming.)


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## SearsPoncho

When I started listening to classical music many moons ago, I read lots of nonsense which asserted that Mahler took tonalism as far as it could go, and the atonal music which followed (i.e., the Second Viennese School) was the inevitable and only response. Really? How about Bartok, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Martinu and, yes, Janacek, among an almost infinite amount of other composers? 

As for performances of Janacek's 1st, I prefer the more aggressively red-blooded ones which bring out the full spectrum of timbre in vivid sound.


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## Malx

I've had a very enjoyable week revisiting the recordings of the 'Kreutzer Sonata' quartet that I have on my shelves, I didn't venture into the world of streaming as I don't want to be tempted to part with more cash (little will power).

With reference to the connnection to the Tolstoy short novel I like the thought* of Milan Škampa of the Smetana Quartet, who believes '_directly from the score we can trace the outlines of the plot, follow the story as it unfolds, even discover the degree of Janáček's ideological deviation from Tolstoy's concep_t' he also suggests that the four movements may depict the phases of a Greek tragedy - expostion, peripeteia, crisis and catharsis. Now I'm not knowledgable about Greek tragedies but I can see the connection of the last two movements of the quartet to 'crisis and catharsis'.

The quartet itself has, to my ear, little time for formal structure and is largely based around passion and varying emotions. It is how the performers relate to and describe these p&e's that gives us the various different takes on the piece.

I believe there are three broad styles I can detect in the recordings I have and have listened to - firstly, those that emphasise the contrasts of emotions, often spikier at times, secondly those that play down the fiery elements within the emotions and finally those that strike a balance between the two.
The *Calidore* & *Pavel Haas (BBC MM)* recordings I would place in the first category, the *Schoenberg* and *Talich (2004)* in the second and the *Pavel Haas (Supraphon)* and *Takács* in the final.

As to which is best, I honestly can't choose - by one turn I love the darker hued more civilised take of the Talich recording, the next I revel in the enthusiasm and drive of the Pavel Haas live recording but then again the Takács find little nuances that others don't highlight, the lilt they achieve at the start of the second movement for example allied to the fact they seem to confirm the 'crisis' going on in the third movement to great effect. Fact is I wouldn't want to be without any of them.

(* taken from the Schoenberg Quartet recording Chandos booklet).


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## Merl

I think Malx hit the nail on the head with his summation of the range of styles. I'll link my original blog review (from last year) below if anyone's interested but I did have to edit it as I'd missed 2 accounts out completely (it happens - I do make an occasional faux-pas) but both have now been included. I am a fan of the firier recordings but there are still plenty of the more relaxed recordings that I like too (eg Belcea). As I always say, if they can convince me with their vision I'm happy, however they read it. As much as I like many Hagen recordings I'm not a fan of either of their Janacek quartet accounts (that was probably the first Janacek disc I bought apart from the Stamitz). As long as you found a recording that you like that's all that matters. This is a quartet that deserves more recognition (I'm just as passionate about Prokofiev's 2nd). Apart from Beethoven or Mendelssohn recordings I have more recordings of the Janacek quartets than any other quartet (my cd versions are in the pic below but I have double that on the hard drive).









Janacek - String Quartet 1 'Kreutzer Sonata&#039...


Janáček's String Quartet No. 1, "Kreutzer Sonata", was written in a very short space of time, between 13 and 28 October 1923 and was revised by the composer from 30 October to 7 November 1923. The composition was inspired by Leo Tolstoy's novella The Kreutzer Sonata. (The novella was in turn...




www.talkclassical.com


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## HenryPenfold

Good to be reacquainted with this work, not listened to it in a while. I have only 3 recordings in my collection, Hagen, Takacs, and Quatuor Debussy. I shall be sticking to the latter this week. I like their breezy but rich sound. Sometimes I find other quartets can make the music feel slightly heavy in places.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Good to be reacquainted with this work, not listened to it in a while. I have only 3 recordings in my collection, Hagen, Takacs, and Quatuor Debussy. I shall be sticking to the latter this week. I like their breezy but rich sound. Sometimes I find other quartets can make the music feel slightly heavy in places.
> 
> View attachment 179846


I missed that one. Need to find it now. Damn you Henry!


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## CnC Bartok

As far as my tastes go with this quartet, and its later sister work, it seems to be even more dominated to the point of exclusion by Czech quartets than Bartok is by Hungarian ones. The Talichs, Pavel Haas, and the Skampa take the biscuit as far as I am concerned, I don't hear any of them going overboard in the heart-on-sleeve department. Strangely, I feel the Panocha, and the older classy quartets like the Smetana and the Janacek do hold something back and are maybe too "polite"?

I saw the Pavel Haas quartet live a couple of weeks ago, and my God they're good! They did Haydn Op.76/1, Prokofiev 2 and Pavel Haas 2. The latter is coupled with the Janacek 2nd on their Supraphon recording, and unless the idea/gimmick of percussion in the finale is anathema to you, this is a work well worth getting to know.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I missed that one. Need to find it now. Damn you Henry!


amateur


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> amateur


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## pianozach

Shosty said:


> Next I watched a pretty unknown quartet play the piece on youtube which was an interesting experience, though I have no idea whether it's a good performance. Either way here's the video:


That strikes me as being quite funny.

You see, I can admire 'new' music on an intellectual level, but it's rare when I find musique concrete that I really really enjoy on an emotional or spiritual level. 

And this would be one of the many reasons: One is never really sure whether a performance of random noise music is a good performance, or a lousy performance. 

I'm going to queue this up and have a listen, but I'll predict I won't last more than 7 minutes.


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## pianozach

pianozach said:


> That strikes me as being quite funny.
> 
> You see, I can admire 'new' music on an intellectual level, but it's rare when I find musique concrete that I really really enjoy on an emotional or spiritual level.
> 
> And this would be one of the many reasons: One is never really sure whether a performance of random noise music is a good performance, or a lousy performance.
> 
> I'm going to queue this up and have a listen, but I'll predict I won't last more than 7 minutes.


I made it 13 minutes, and found it pointless. The beginning was much like being indoors, but with the next door neighbor operating some sort of machinery. The lengthy "quiet" section is maddening . . . you can see that they're doing stuff, but it's so quiet as to be unhearable. Especially goofy is the time the cellist spends playing below the bridge; the composer may as well have brought in a percussionist for this sort of thing.


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## Merl

^ Are you two bickering in the right thread? Just asking.


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## Carmina Banana

Someday I will write a story about this quartet. Then I can say that I wrote a story based on a quartet based on a story based on a sonata. 

Janacek is an interesting composer. At times, he reminds me of a late romantic composer writing sketchy little character pieces. He starts things and then drifts off as if to say, “never mind…” Or, in the case of the 3rd movement, he begins something beautiful and does the musical equivalent of scribbling it out. 

Maybe the best way to listen is to imaging a little drama unfolding—like a 20 minute Wagner opera? 

So far, the Talich Quartet is my favorite recording. The sound is full and they capture a lot of the drama inherent in the piece. I hope to explore more of the options in Merl’s blog. It is always fun to hear the ultimate Merl choice and see if I agree.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Janácek's two quartets are truly sui generis. You often hear people describe certain works (and performances) as possessing "improvisatory" qualities, and that's always been a tough thing for me to accept, because how can you distinguish that just by listening? But this music—every time I hear it, no matter which performance, it sounds as if it is being made up on the spot. To the uninitiated it can sound random and unstructured, but I find it heart wrenchingly passionate and rhapsodic. Those swooning, sweeping melodies! Those tangy folk harmonies! Those startling bursts of jolting energy! Maybe this is what it sounds like to fall in love. Or maybe it is touched by much more dark and disturbing impulses. But whatever it is, the music is utterly magnetic—exotic, poetic, and written in an unmistakably individual voice—and I truly can't get enough of it. Is it just me, or do I hear a cohesive narrative across the two quartets such that they could be feasibly played together without break? I would love to hear that in concert.

*Henry*, does this week work better for you? You are next in the order.


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## Merl

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ..... Is it just me, or do I hear a cohesive narrative across the two quartets such that they could be feasibly played together without break? I would love to hear that in concert.


Ive seen both these quartets played live but never back to back (one by the Takacs and the other by the Pavel Haas). I think they work really well together as they have a common sound. It's a fantastic quartet. We'll done for picking it.


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## Kreisler jr

Carmina Banana said:


> Someday I will write a story about this quartet. Then I can say that I wrote a story based on a quartet based on a story based on a sonata.


Not to discourage your efforts but I'd bet someone already did this; but it might be an untranslated Czech short story or so.



> So far, the Talich Quartet is my favorite recording. The sound is full and they capture a lot of the drama inherent in the piece.


Which one, the 1985 or another one? Their 1985 is the most lyrical of the ones I have heard, I think.


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *Henry*, does this week work better for you? You are next in the order.


Work better than what? I thought the coming week is my designated turn. Am I missing something?


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## Mandryka

String Quartet No. 1, JW VII/8 "Kreutzer Sonata": I. Adagio - Con moto • Leoš Janáček, Quartetto Energie Nove (spotify.com)

This is interesting -- Energie Nove -- anyone have the booklet? Went back to sources to get a better edition and thought hard about instruments.


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## Merl

Mandryka said:


> String Quartet No. 1, JW VII/8 "Kreutzer Sonata": I. Adagio - Con moto • Leoš Janáček, Quartetto Energie Nove (spotify.com)
> 
> This is interesting -- Energie Nove -- anyone have the booklet? Went back to sources to get a better edition and thought hard about instruments.


The Energie Nove recordings of BOTH Janacek quartets are brilliant. Utterly vital. Both came top of my blog picks.


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## Mandryka

Merl said:


> The Energie Nove recordings of BOTH Janacek quartets are brilliant. Utterly vital. Both came top of my blog picks.


There you go, confluence, consensus almost!


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## Allegro Con Brio

HenryPenfold said:


> Work better than what? I thought the coming week is my designated turn. Am I missing something?


Last week you said:



HenryPenfold said:


> Hi ACB
> 
> I'm afraid I'm not able to pull anything together today for this.


So I just wanted to check to make sure this week was good for you


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Last week you said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I just wanted to check to make sure this week was good for you


Last week you asked me to stand in at short notice and I couldn't. I've had plenty of notice of my turn this coming week.


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## SearsPoncho

Glad to see that nearly everyone enjoyed the Janacek. For a different side of the composer, check out his piano music. Rudolf Firkusny made great recordings of On An Overgrown Path and In the Mists. The two most popular orchestral pieces are the Sinfonietta and Taras Bulba. Charles Mackerras made excellent recordings of them. There's the Glagolitic Mass and plenty of operas for those wanting vocal music. A fascinating composer - one of the the 20th century's greatest, in my humble opinion.


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## Merl

An Overgrown Path arranged for String Quartet is also terrific. If you like both Janacek quartets then you should own a copy of An Overgrown Path. It is to Janacek what the Cypresses are to Dvorak but it's much better. There's not many recordings of them but they are on the Energie Nove disc mentioned above (and the Czech Philharmonic Quartet recorded them too). Highly recommended.


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## SearsPoncho

Merl said:


> An Overgrown Path arranged for String Quartet is also terrific. If you like both Janacek quartets then you should own a copy of An Overgrown Path. It is to Janacek what the Cypresses are to Dvorak but it's much better. There's not many recordings of them but they are on the Energie Nove disc mentioned above (and the Talich recorded them too). Highly recommended.


I'm a huge Dvorak fan, but I would agree that the Cypresses are just kind of meh. 

Steve, no interesting or bizarre covers for Janacek. From what I've seen, most are tolerable.


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## Merl

SearsPoncho said:


> I'm a huge Dvorak fan, but I would agree that the Cypresses are just kind of meh.
> 
> Steve, no interesting or bizarre covers for Janacek. From what I've seen, most are tolerable.


Even this one, SP?


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## StevehamNY

^ We covered most of the interesting Janacek covers when we did his 2nd a while back, the above Jerusalem Quartet cover being probably the most interesting of all, especially if you know who von Jawlensky was painting here.

On the other hand, this Calidore Quartet album (highly regarded in Merl's survey) has only the 1st quartet from Janacek (and I can't remember if it was brought it up for either the Prokofiev or the Mendelssohn), but I think it definitely sticks around in one's head!


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## HenryPenfold

Today is Sunday and it's time for the next string quartet on your best fred on the forearm.


*William Walton* - String Quartet No.2 in A-minor (1947)

Walton's _oeuvre_ is mainly orchestral, and his chamber works rather live in the shade therefore.

But that does not mean that they are less interesting, at least not less interesting to music lovers like us on this thread who have a particular _penchant_ for string quartets.

Although this quartet is a tightly argued work on a technical basis, it does not yield to melody, rhythm or harmony as some works of this period do.

In fact it is a near 4-instrument facsimile of Walton's first symphony, especially regarding the two respective second movement scherzos. Well, perhaps that's overstaying the case a bit! But I will say there are a lot of interesting parallels if you take that perspective out of curiosity.

As is my wont, I shall stick with one recording from my collection this week, and leave others to wander through the avenues of alternative recordings. Why not?

For me it's The Maggini Quartet on Naxos who best deliver a warm, but clear and necessarily athletic work-through of this challenging music. The sound quality of this disc is superb.

Hail, hail the Maggini Quartet, where would lovers of British string quartets be without them!?


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## maestro267

Great choice, but No. 2? I thought that was the only Walton quartet.


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## Bulldog

maestro267 said:


> Great choice, but No. 2? I thought that was the only Walton quartet.


In his early 20's, Walton wrote his first string quartet.


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## Malx

maestro267 said:


> Great choice, but No. 2? I thought that was the only Walton quartet.


The Doric and Emperor quartets have discs which feature both Walton quartets.


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## Merl

This is a fine quartet and a great choice, Henry. I'm a huge fan of a few other recordings in this one and I blogged it in the summer. I seem to remember being sat on the beach in Kirkcaldy, on an extremely hot day, listening to multiple recordings whilst soaking up the rays. I love the 2nd and 4th movements, especially.

If you're looking for recordings here's some below...

Gabrieli
Emperor 
Britten
Coull
Maggini
Doric
Hollywood
English
Endellion
Allegri

My original comments are in my blog but I won't link it till the end of the week. Suffice to say this is one of my favourite English quartets.


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## HenryPenfold

maestro267 said:


> Great choice, but No. 2? I thought that was the only Walton quartet.


You are right to point this out. This quartet is most commonly referred to as 'String Quartet in A-Minor' - Naxos don't even go that far and call it 'String quartet 1947'!!

Walton wrote a string quartet in 1921/1922 that no-one seems to mention!

It would have been better if I hadn't referred to it as no. 2.

*EDIT*: The Chandos website has a free downloadable booklet for the Doric recording of both quartets and it is a very interesting read with lots of information.


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## HenryPenfold

Bulldog said:


> In his early 20's, Walton wrote his first string quartet.


No. 

He was 19 when he wrote his first string quartet, finishing it when he was 20.


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## starthrower

I'm all set for the next 40 or 50 British Quartet picks since I bought the Maggini box! I hadn't even noticed the Walton disc on the bottom of the pile as I've just begun to dig in. Since I'd never listened to a note of his music I also decided to pick up the first symphony, also on Naxos. I'll listen for those parallels in the scherzo movements.


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## Merl

Add onto my list the new *Albion Quartet *recording on Signum. It's still in my pile of stuff to listen to on Spotify but I've gone over my blog edit limit so I won't be able to add it till that finishes in a few days. Grrr! After a brief skip-listen it looks like I will need to change my Shosty 3 blog too. This sounds like some disc!


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## Chilham

Merl said:


> Add onto my list the new *Albion Quartet *recording on Signum. It's still iny pile of stuff to listen toom Spotify but I've gone over my blog edit limit so I won't be able to add it till that finishes in a few days. Grrr! After a brief skip-listen it looks like I will need to change my Shosty 3 blog too. This sounds like some disc!


It's outstanding on first listen.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> I'm all set for the next 40 or 50 British Quartet picks since I bought the Maggini box! I hadn't even noticed the Walton disc on the bottom of the pile as I've just begun to dig in. Since I'd never listened to a note of his music I also decided to pick up the first symphony, also on Naxos. I'll listen for those parallels in the scherzo movements.


You did rather well to get that box 👍

I'd also recommend that symphony recording on Naxos by The Northern Philharmonia/Paul Daniel. Plus it has a good performance of the Partita - great disc 👍


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## starthrower

HenryPenfold said:


> You did rather well to get that box 👍
> 
> I'd also recommend that symphony recording on Naxos by The Northern Philharmonia/Paul Daniel. Plus it has a good performance of the Partita - great disc 👍


That's the CD I have on Naxos. I flipped a coin over that one and Previn, and the Daniel CD got the nod. And yes, I'm glad I splurged for the Maggini box. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.


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## HenryPenfold

starthrower said:


> That's the CD I have on Naxos. I flipped a coin over that one and Previn, and the Daniel CD got the nod. And yes, I'm glad I splurged for the Maggini box. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.


The Previn of course gets a high place in everyone's estimation and I have a jolly nice HDCD recording. But these days, I actually go to the Daniel more than the Previn. One can't lose either way!


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## SearsPoncho

Looking forward to this one. I have some great Walton recordings but they're all orchestral, including the Previn/LSO 1st, the Violin Concerto with Heifetz and Walton conducting the Philharmonia, the Cello Concerto with Piatigorsky and Munch/Boston, the great Viola Concerto with Bashmet and Previn/LSO, and the Sinfonia Concertante with Vernon Handley conducting the RPO.


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## HerbertNorman

Interesting one , good choice @HenryPenfold , one I did anticipate somewhat as I have read that you value Walton's work highly in one of the threads on here  I only own the Maggini quartet recording on Naxos , so I will be doing some streaming too. Looking forward to it!

I really , really enjoyed the Janacek this week and I listened to it just about every evening this week ;-) There's a few that I liked very much , yet it isn't easy to pick a clear winner . The Takacs recording is one I really value , but I was impressed by the Talich , the Melos and the Jerusalem Quartet's recordings . The different ways they approach the work are very interesting to listen to.


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## MartinDB

starthrower said:


> That's the CD I have on Naxos. I flipped a coin over that one and Previn, and the Daniel CD got the nod. And yes, I'm glad I splurged for the Maggini box. I'm enjoying it quite a bit.


I also splurged on the box and am enjoying it. I starting listening to Walton's first symphony this year; a Colin Davis/LSO recording. Assuming you like it, the Karabits and Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra recording on Onyx is great (I prefer it to the Previn though I don't know the Naxos recording).


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## Merl

I especially enjoy the outer movements of the Walton quartet. They frame this quartet perfectly for me. It's probably my favourite English string quartet (I love Elgar's quartet too).


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## maestro267

(via Doric 4tet) Very enjoyable quartet to listen to. I loved the slow movement particularly, and the fast finale although I thought it ended a bit abruptly.


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## SearsPoncho

HenryPenfold said:


> Today is Sunday and it's time for the next string quartet on your best fred on the forearm.
> 
> 
> *William Walton* - String Quartet No.2 in A-minor (1947)
> 
> Walton's _oeuvre_ is mainly orchestral, and his chamber works rather live in the shade therefore.
> 
> But that does not mean that they are less interesting, at least not less interesting to music lovers like us on this thread who have a particular _penchant_ for string quartets.
> 
> Although this quartet is a tightly argued work on a technical basis, it does not yield to melody, rhythm or harmony as some works of this period do.
> 
> In fact it is a near 4-instrument facsimile of Walton's first symphony, especially regarding the two respective second movement scherzos. Well, perhaps that's overstaying the case a bit! But I will say there are a lot of interesting parallels if you take that perspective out of curiosity.
> 
> As is my wont, I shall stick with one recording from my collection this week, and leave others to wander through the avenues of alternative recordings. Why not?
> 
> For me it's The Maggini Quartet on Naxos who best deliver a warm, but clear and necessarily athletic work-through of this challenging music. The sound quality of this disc is superb.
> 
> Hail, hail the Maggini Quartet, where would lovers of British string quartets be without them!?
> 
> View attachment 179949
> View attachment 179950


That one hit me hard. Remarkable. It struck a nerve which rarely gets struck except for the most profound pieces of classical music I hold in greatest esteem. Where has this been all my life? I can say, without hesitation, that no quartet we've covered in this thread has affected me so deeply and immediately. I was going to write some nonsense about form, a dark, smoky, low timbre, Berg and rhythm. Nah. I'm just plain smitten and, obviously, about to buy a recording right now. 

Thanks, Henry. Amazing choice.


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## SearsPoncho

Oooops. I mistakenly put on Vaughan Williams/ 2nd quartet. That's the music I was reacting to. I'll try this again tonight...


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## Knorf

I've really enjoyed the run of choices in recent weeks, with especially the Janáček First and Walton Second solidly among my favorite quartets ever. Wonderful works.

I'll agree with anyone who suggests that the Walton deserves far greater recognition; I almost chose it myself more than once a ways back when it was my turn!

One thing both the Janáček and Walton quartets have in common is that they strike me as particularly personal and subjective, even for such a genre as string quartet. The Walton is powerful and almost quasi-symphonic for sure, but still very individual and uniquely Walton. It's personal in the way that the second movement of the First symphony, "Scherzo: Presto con malizia" is, not a bad breakup as in the symphony, but yet a reckoning with something perhaps uequally or even more pained deep in Walton's pysche.

Of course it's well documented how idiosyncratic and personal in affect both Janáček quartets are.

Side note: the Walton First Quartet is an eminently worthy composition; a pity it was it was so ill received and that he withdrew it. It has real quality!


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## HenryPenfold

SearsPoncho said:


> That one hit me hard. Remarkable. It struck a nerve which rarely gets struck except for the most profound pieces of classical music I hold in greatest esteem. Where has this been all my life? I can say, without hesitation, that no quartet we've covered in this thread has affected me so deeply and immediately. I was going to write some nonsense about form, a dark, smoky, low timbre, Berg and rhythm. Nah. I'm just plain smitten and, obviously, about to buy a recording right now.
> 
> Thanks, Henry. Amazing choice.


You're welcome. If you liked that, perhaps try Vaughan Williams' 2nd string quartet too.


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## SearsPoncho

Ok, I got it right this time. I enjoyed the Walton 2. There's plenty to unpack for a first visit, and I'll need to hear it a few more times to get a grip on it all. My favorite movement was the first. There's a rhythmic emphasis throughout the three quick movements and I enjoyed the fugue in the first movement, in fact, I wish that section lasted longer. Oh, and I loved the final coda. Looking forward to hearing it more...and the VW2.


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## StevehamNY

This might sound incredible, but I took a quick glance at this week's SQ and then made the exact same mistake as SP! I too was listening to the Vaughan Williams 2nd and enjoying it very much until I finally got my head on straight. The upside is that I got to listen to two great quartets this week and will be returning to both of them. So double thanks, I guess, to Henry. 

I hope everyone's going to have a great holidays, and speaking of which, I believe I'm theoretically scheduled for the week between Christmas and New Years. I'm assuming we'll skip that week and pick up in January?


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## HerbertNorman

Well I listened to the Vaughan Williams (Maggini Quartet) yesterday evening together with the Doric Quartet' rendition of the Walton ... Enjoyable evening's listening !


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## Malx

William Walton, a composer who didn't waste too many notes. His list of compositions is no where near as extensive as many but he didn't have many misses.

Possibly the greatest English symphony with his Symphony No 1 and after a week listening to this quartet with a bit of concentration, helped by the freezing weather that restricted my desire to go out and about, possibly the greatest English string quartet.

As I stated in my first sentence he wastes no notes, for me there isn't a weak movement in the piece, it retains my concentration throughout.

I've listened to the three recordings I have on my shelves - Endellion / Maggini / Emperor along with the Albion that has been getting much love lately. My only disappointment has been the Endellion and that is really only because the rest are of such a high standard - it was the first disc I bought of the piece so since then every new addition has been a positive one.


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## sbmonty

Enjoying this week's choice. Maggini boxset is the source. Interestingly, I went back to listen to Vaughan Williams 2nd quartet after these past few comments. Really enjoyed that listen as well! 
Nice twofer this week Henry! Thanks again.


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## Carmina Banana

Walton is one of those composers who didn’t throw the baby out with the 20th century bathwater. He continued to use tonal structures and kept other traditional elements, but wrote music that was original and important. I have a special place in my heart for these composers. 

What I love about this quartet and other pieces by Walton is the coming together of dissonance and exciting rhythms to produce something that I describe as “wonderfully crunchy.” 

Contrasting with are moments of heartbreaking lyricism. 

In some ways, he reminds me of some of Samuel Barber’s finest moments.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I haven't really connected with any of Walton's works that I have heard up to this point—including the well-regarded 1st symphony. I generally struggle to detect cohesive narrative arches in his music (which I generally need in order to enjoy a piece), instead finding it rather meandering and "indecisive" (I know that's a strange word to describe music, but I can't think of a better term). But I can get behind this quartet. There's a lot of explosive energy throughout—I thought for a while that the first movement contained too much of it and that the work would be imbalanced, but the third movement resolves it nicely with a great deal of moving, melancholy lyricism. There were still extended moments in this work where the lack of resolution caused me to lose interest, but with them came many effective moments that I enjoyed.

*Carmina Banana *is up next.

Carmina Banana
StevehamNY
Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## Carmina Banana

My choice for this week’s quartet is from a composer that has interested in for many years. I had a chance to work with her briefly on a project, which was exciting. I got to see how she worked and be part of the first group to bring her piece to life. I haven’t always been a big fan of her work—sometimes the techniques seem too obvious and don’t resonate emotionally with me, I guess. But taking another look now at her chamber music makes me respect her more and more as a composer. I’m finding more emotional depth in her work. The piece I chose is a particularly good example of this. She wrote it in memory of a close friend, but during the composition, the tragedy of September 11 happened and took the piece in a slightly different direction. What I like about this piece is what it says about mourning: yes, there is sadness but this can lead to other responses as well, some destructive and some constructive. 

My selection is:

In Memory by Joan Tower

I’m interested in hearing your reaction to this piece. As far as I know, there is only one recording—the Tokyo String Quartet.


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## Bwv 1080

I know her guitar piece Clocks, looking forward to this.

on the previous weeks, I just can’t get into a lot of the more traditional mid 20th century music - it’s my issue not the composers


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## SearsPoncho

I remember watching the marathon concerts to celebrate Carnegie Hall's 100th anniversary in 1991. Zubin Mehta and the New York Phil kicked off the festivities with Tower's Fanfare For The Uncommon Woman. I believe it was written for the occasion, and Mehta brought Tower onstage after the short piece.


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## Merl

Ooh, new to me


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## HerbertNorman

Yay, another new one to discover, I'm motivated to get into this one


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## Malx

A composer I have no knowledge of, so it follows a new piece for me - just finished streaming first listen right now. 
I note that Tower has composed five string quartets of which this is the second.


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## Malx

I've now listened to 'In Memory' five times and I am enjoying the piece - I am struggling to find a coherent structure to the quartet it is coming over more of a flow of feelings from one section to another representing futility, or a sometimes quiet, sometimes less so, resentment. 

'In Memory' started out as a tribute to the passing of a close friend a feeling of loss that was intensified by the events of 9/11 which occurred during the period of composition. It clearly comes over to me as a deeply felt work that I'm sure means a lot to the composer. 

I would say that I intend to listen to more of Tower's compositions in the near future when time permits and I am grateful to CB for this introduction to a composer I have to admit had flown completely under my radar.


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## Merl

This _should_ be right up my street but I'm not totally getting it. I don't find it unpleasant at all, just unmemorable (I've played it 4 times at least). It's ooookay but, like Malx, I'm still looking for some kind of structure to hang on to.


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## SearsPoncho

Interesting piece. It alternates between a somber, elegiac tone and darker, thrilling music somewhat reminiscent of Bernard Herrmann. Every time the elegiac music returns it's fleshed out a little more. It ends with such music and fades away. I'm not sure what I think of the music, but there are some very moving, emotional moments.


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## Bwv 1080

Starts off strong, reminds me a bit of Penderecki meets Shostakovich. But not so interesting rhythmically or texturally. I get easily bored of overuse of extended string techniques, but some would be nice to break up the texture a bit.


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## Carmina Banana

It is very interesting to hear what people have to say about this piece. Thanks to everyone who has listened and commented. I didn’t really know how I felt about Joan Tower’s works for a long time. But when I listened to this piece recently it really moved me. Then I started delving into more of her music written over her, so far, long career.

In addition to checking out more of Joan Tower’s works, I have been listening to and reading some interviews. I was interested to hear what she has to say about her compositional process. It is slow and intuitive. She doesn’t use a method or technique (according to her) and it must have a narrative. She considers herself akin to a novelist. 

Despite this piece being a memorial, she believes that music is ultimately only about…music. That doesn’t apply to music with text, she goes on to say, but she has not interest in ever creating music with text. 

Some people have commented about a lack of coherent structure. At one point, she addresses that by saying she can’t compose with a “map.” She needs to start at the beginning and just let the music dictate what comes next. While this can lead to spontaneity and an organic growth, it could also leave the piece with a lack of structure. 

What I have noticed about her music is that it often is not about creating a melody as much as focusing on intervals and rhythms. Often there is a proportional relationship there—a scale that has shorter duration notes as it climbs farther away from its original pitch for instance. 

This is just one element of her work, though, because at times there will be beautiful melodic moments—parts of In Memory, for instance. 

I would recommend an early work by her, Sequoia, as a good listen. It represents some of the rhythmic excitement that I associate with her.


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## Carmina Banana

SearsPoncho said:


> Interesting piece. It alternates between a somber, elegiac tone and darker, thrilling music somewhat reminiscent of Bernard Herrmann. Every time the elegiac music returns it's fleshed out a little more. It ends with such music and fades away. I'm not sure what I think of the music, but there are some very moving, emotional moments.


I totally hear Bernard Herrmann in her music. It uses the same gestures and triggers the same angsty feelings. I wonder if she has ever done movie scores.


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## sbmonty

Not familiar with Herrmann, yet. But I did hear a Shostakovich influence. Nice choice!

Looked up Herrmann. Ahh, yes. I have heard several of his film scores over the years. Thanks.


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## Carmina Banana

sbmonty said:


> Not familiar with Herrman, yet. But I did hear a Shostakovich influence. Nice choice!


I would bet that you have heard Herrmann's music at some point--he wrote scores for so many classic movies. I was thinking Shostakovich wrote some film scores as well. Then I looked it up. Apparently he wrote 40 film scores during his career!


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## HenryPenfold

I've been enjoying Joan Tower's music for about 10 years now, particularly the orchestral music. I've a soft spot for 'Made In America', 'Tabor' and 'Concerto For Orchestra', where I feel she's playing to her strengths in music displaying colourful, highly expressionist orchestral sound-scaping. Her percussion works are similarly vibrant and full of colour.

With a smaller canvass, I find her not nearly as compelling, but her string quartets are more than passable. At the risk of sounding negative, of her string quartet works, I find 'In Memory' one of her least enjoyable. On the positive side, it's a great reminder of a rather underestimated American composer who deserves a good listen.

P.S. The Herrmann reference is a total surprise to me and very interesting!


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## Allegro Con Brio

For any fellow Weekly Quarteters who happen to be in the Upper Midwest, I hope you all stay warm and safe. Right now in Minnesota, the actual temperature is -13, it feels like -35, and we're experiencing the winter equivalent of a dust storm. It's not actually snowing, but it looks like it because the 40+ mph winds are whipping across the open fields and wreaking havoc. My county is under a shelter-in-place warning, and the roads are quite literally impassable. Needless to say, Christmas festivities outside of nearby family have been called off (not complaining, more time for music  Coincidentally enough, I find this wonderful piece by Joan Tower to be an ideal soundtrack for the weather chaos. It opens in a bleak and pensive vein, bleached of color, then launches into a brief yet savage Bartokian dance before the wind-worn desolation returns, giving way to the storm one more time at the end before trailing off on a haunting echoing unison, like a voice in the void. Definite shades of Sibelius's 4th symphony and Shostakovich's first cello concerto throughout—some of the bleakest music from the north I know. It's definitely a circumstantial thing, but this music really hits the spot right now. It's certainly not trailblazing, but I have no problem with contemporary composers who write in styles from the past in addition to those who are more intrepid. Great pick, CB!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all! Can you believe that we're going into our _fourth _year of this thread? I look forward to all the wonderful 16-stringed discoveries that are yet to come.

*StevehamNY *will choose this week.


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## Knorf

I've waxed warm and lukewarm about Joan Tower's music, however _In Memory_, which is new to me, struck me as really quite an excellent piece. It's episodic structure seems justified in my opinion, given the subject. Memory and grief always range all over the place through various emotions and responses. 

Anyway, glad for the prompt to get to know this work! Good choice.


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## Carmina Banana

Thanks to everyone for checking out this piece. It might not be the best of her quartets as Henry pointed out, but I was really connecting with it emotionally and I had the thought, I wonder what others think of this? It was great to hear some of your ideas. I agree with the opinion that much of her strength lies in the orchestral compositions; she knows how to manipulate those colors very well. 

My overall take on her as a composer is: she is a very open, honest, sincere creator who makes music based on her experiences in life. She is not afraid to have influences (Beethoven, Crumb, Messiaen) but doesn’t conform to a system or doctrine or method. I suppose that is a bit naive of me to say; we all probably have a system or method whether we know it or not, but she seems committed to writing from her heart rather than the Fibonacci series or some other abstract guiding principal.


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## StevehamNY

ACB, please stay warm and safe! We got a ton of rain followed by a 40-degree temperature drop, but our wind chill is just -10, which is downright balmy compared to Minnesota.

If everyone would like me to choose a quartet this week, I can certainly do that (it'll be later in the day as tomorrow of course is Christmas), but I would also be okay with waiting a week for the holidays. 

(On the one hand, we're all doing family stuff this week, but on the other hand... maybe an occasional break would be a good thing? You tell me, I'm good either way!)


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## Allegro Con Brio

^That would be good with me, unless anyone objects.


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## Malx

^^ I'll just go with the flow - either way is fine .
We could of course get the family's input..... right, I'll get my coat.


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## Merl

Whatever. I'm not bothered. I've a slew of blogs to post. As Noddy Holder would shout, "IT'S CHRISSSSTMAS! “


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## HenryPenfold

I think the show must go on. We are music lovers and THIS IS THE BEST THREAD ON THE FORUM. 

How can we be so easily defeated? What does it say to all the other members who follow lesser threads other than this one? 

We are the STAR-CHAMBER of the forum - we must lead by example.

I know it's Christmas.


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## Merl

But Henry, our American friends are freezing to death, trapped in their homes. Have you no compassion, Leonidas?


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## HenryPenfold

*"Life shows no mercy...."*


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## sbmonty

I vote go for it!


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## StevehamNY

My mandate is clear. A Christmas quartet will appear in everyone's stockings tomorrow!

EDIT: And just in case you wake up tomorrow morning and needs something to hold you over, here is (no joke) eight straight hours of Christmas music played by a string quartet:






I'll post the real quartet later in the evening. It will be my favorite work from a composer we haven't seen in this forum yet. (If you know where I've gone in the past, you may be able to guess who.)

And please everyone have a Merry Christmas!


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## Merl

^ I bet it's Mahler, from his cycle of 32 string quartets (never published). Wow, imagine a Mahler string quartet... 2 hours long complete with a soprano, hammer blows and an offstage band. 🤭


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## maestro267

Three of the players smash their instrument at significant points in the piece (three hammer blows) and only the viola is left at the end.


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## StevehamNY

I hope everyone is having (or had, depending on your time zone) a truly joyous Christmas! My present to you is not (as has been rumored above) an unpublished Mahler quartet but rather another selection from the Russian silver age and the first we've heard from this particular composer. I give to you:

*String Quartet No. 2 in C major, Op. 5, by Sergei Taneyev*

Published in 1896, it's actually the 6th quartet he completed. (The chronological order of his nine quartets goes 7, 8, 9, 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, because naturally.) It's fairly long at 41 minutes, but there are only four recordings that I know of:


The venerable Taneyev Quartet themselves, who of course recorded the complete cycle (currently available on the Northern Flowers label).
The Carpe Diem Quartet, who also recorded the complete cycle for Naxos.
The California String Quartet, who recorded #2 and #6 for Centaur. (I haven't heard it yet, will check it out this week.)
The Krasni Quartet, who recorded #1 and #2 for Olympia, apparently the beginning of a complete cycle that didn't go any further. I note that Merl has blogged the Krasnis' #1 and thought very highly of it, so now I'm very interested to hear his take on their #2. (At which point, I may have to go find this recording!)

I'll say more about this quartet and why I think it's Taneyev's best as the week goes on. It will also be a week that makes me wish Burbage was still around because Sergei was one interesting dude, particularly in his relationship with Tchaikovsky.









[Sergei chilling after a walk in the rose garden.]

I hope you enjoy this late-romantic feast from the composer some call the "Russian Brahms" (the accuracy of which is a whole argument in itself) and once again a Merry Christmas to all!


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## HenryPenfold

This is an excellent choice. I need to think about how to explain why I think this type of Russian late romantic string quartet writing is so compelling for me. 

While I love Tchaikovsky's string quartets, I don't think they equal what Taneyev has achieved in his second quartet.

I'm won over by Taneyev's ability to convey big, long-lined musical arguments that are normally the confines of orchestral music, from just four stringed instruments. 

The music really sings while maintaining both deep-felt emotions and strong formal structure - to my ears, a perfect string quartet.

I'm currently listening to the California String Quartet via Qobuz streaming and I think the performance is very good indeed - fabulous musicianship.

Sitting on the couch sipping a favourite blended whisky letting the music wash over me - does it get better than that? 😆


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## StevehamNY

^ Henry, I'm literally sitting here listening to the same recording and I _knew _something was missing. (Just got a nice bottle for Christmas, too.)


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## Art Rock

StevehamNY said:


> *String Quartet No. 2 in C major, Op. 5, by Sergei Taneyev*


I have this quartet on Northern Flowers, it's my favourite of the cycle (played it in August).

There is a pretty extensive review on Musicweb - fun to read after you listened to it (link).


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## sbmonty

Listening to the Taneyev Quartet now. Really enjoying this so far. Three movements in. 
Merry Christmas everyone!


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## Merl

I've already reviewed my favourite Taneyev quartet (no.1) in my blog so looking forward to this one too. Its a fine quartet. As I'm now alone for the rest of the night, I'm listening.

PS. I got a nice 20 year old single malt for Xmas so I'll tuck into that soon, Henry/Steve


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I've already reviewed my favourite Taneyev quartet (no.1) in my blog so looking forward to this one too. Its a fine quartet. As I'm now alone for the rest of the night, I'm listening.
> 
> PS. I got a nice 20 year old single malt for Xmas so I'll tuck into that soon, Henry/Steve


I got a 15 year old Dalwhinnie and a Laphroaig Quatercask as presents, but I fancied a large Teacher's blend - its main single malt in the blend is the Ardmore, a delicious dram. What 20 year old did you get?


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I got a 15 year old Dalwhinnie and a Laphroaig Quatercask as presents, but I fancied a large Teacher's blend - its main single malt in the blend is the Ardmore, a delicious dram. What 20 year old did you get?


My bad, it's not 20 years old it's 12. Lol.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> My bad, it's not 20 years old it's 12. Lol.


Never had it, looks nice. I'm on tea now!


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## Merl

Also got this one too, Henry. This is lovely,


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## Merl

Apologies for the double post but just to say that California Quartet Taneyev disc is an absolute joy.


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## StevehamNY

Speaking of you-know-what, this was my month-long present for this December:


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> PS. I got a nice 20 year old single malt for Xmas so I'll tuck into that soon, Henry/Steve





HenryPenfold said:


> I got a 15 year old Dalwhinnie and a Laphroaig Quatercask as presents, but I fancied a large Teacher's blend - its main single malt in the blend is the Ardmore, a delicious dram. What 20 year old did you get?


I have a soft spot for Single Malts, but after the braised leg of venison I preferred Audry XO. (Balvenie Doublewood, Highland Park 18y or similar being obvious alternatives ...)


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## Art Rock

All this whisky talk and no-one posting this one?


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## sbmonty

Now I'm thirsty and it's only 5 am here.


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## HerbertNorman

Looking forward to my birthday now...just a few days away...Christmas Eve...my sister always gets me a nice bottle of single malt whisky 
Last year it was a 15 year old Glendronach









I like Taneyev...good choice @StevehamNY , hope you're not suffering too much from the blizzard! My mates in Buffalo are effectively snowed in atm. Take care


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## HenryPenfold

Philidor said:


> I have a soft spot for Single Malts, but after the braised leg of venison I preferred Audry XO. (Balvenie Doublewood, Highland Park 18y or similar being obvious alternatives ...)


Yes, having just polished off a baked Angus t-bone, although I quite like an occasional glass of Sigognac Vintage 1934 Armagnac, the obvious tipple to reach for was Highland Park 21 year old.


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## Merl

I think this thread needs renaming.. 

*Weekly whisky. Just a drinker's perspective.

🥃*


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> I think this thread needs renaming..


Why not opening a thread in parallel ...?

... oh, stop, I see the problem: Via YouTube there is too much loss of the essentials ...
Talisker 10 vs. Highland Park 12 ⚡ Welcher Whisky ist besser? - YouTube

However, Merl, I would be very glad to read your tasting blogs ... 🔞


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## Merl

Philidor said:


> Why not opening a thread in parallel ...?
> 
> ... oh, stop, I see the problem: Via YouTube there is too much loss of the essentials ...
> Talisker 10 vs. Highland Park 12 ⚡ Welcher Whisky ist besser? - YouTube
> 
> However, Merl, I would be very glad to read your tasting blogs ... 🔞


I think Henry may be the expert here. I am not even a novice whisky drinker.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

sbmonty said:


> Now I'm thirsty and it's only 5 am here.


Good time for a whisky then...I got this one  Taneyev is awesome, I especially like his quintets!


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## Philidor

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Taneyev is awesome,


Agreed. California String Quartet, French Cognac (still Audry XO).


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> I am not even a novice whisky drinker.


Dear Merl, let me tell you that I appreciate very much your string quartet blogs, the real gems in this forum and beyond.

However, should the situation be so as you described it - why not getting closer to whisky instead of listening to the 87th recording of op. 131?

It is so easy ... one whisky from the Lowlands (Glenkinchie or Auchentoshan), one classic from Speyside (e. g. Glenfarclas or The MacAllan), one of the jelly-like single malts (e. g. The Balvenie Doublewood) and one or two from Islay (Ardbeg, Bowmore, Lagavulin, Laphroaig, ...). The cheapest or the second cheapest of each destillery should do the job. These are the standard whiskys, and the more expensive ones sometimes do no more reflect the characteristics in the same way.


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## Malx

I'd like to contribute something to this in depth discussion on my countrys most appreciated tipple - I've rarely drunk the stuff, thats all .


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## Kjetil Heggelund

When I first heard some quartets by Taneyev before, I didn't think it was as wonderful as his piano quintet, but this one is really wonderful and absolutely just as "powerful". OK, I'll have a tiny whiskey


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## StevehamNY

Art Rock said:


> I have this quartet on Northern Flowers, it's my favourite of the cycle (played it in August).
> 
> There is a pretty extensive review on Musicweb - fun to read after you listened to it (link).


Art Rock, thanks for posting this! The review is indeed extensive and to my untrained ears I have to agree that IF Taneyev did have "a tendency to err on the side of caution," it was definitely "a tendency he manages to shake off here."

Read more: TANEYEV String Quartet No.2 NF/PMA9937 [GD]: Classical Music Reviews - June 2010 MusicWeb-International 

On my final whisky note, I also received this bottle for Christmas, a blind buy from my wife (who knows I generally prefer Speysides). For anyone here who's tasted it, is it something I should be looking forward to?


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## Merl

Who'd have thought that Taneyev would bring out the whisky drinkers on TC? Youd have thought it would be the vodka drinkers. 🙃


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## Kjetil Heggelund

The California String Quartet has 19 monthly listeners on spotify...That's us! I tried to find information on them, it seems that one of the violinists, Katia Popov died in 2018...


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## HenryPenfold

Why is there so much talk about whisky? It's quite distracting. I thought Americans were puritanical teetotallers.


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## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> Why is there so much talk about whisky? It's quite distracting. I thought Americans were puritanical teetotallers.


Stereotype alert! 🤭


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> Stereotype alert! 🤭


Irony warning! 😉


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## Kjetil Heggelund

HenryPenfold said:


> Why is there so much talk about whisky? It's quite distracting. I thought Americans were puritanical teetotallers.


Where are the Americans?


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## StevehamNY

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Where are the Americans?


Right here in America. 

(Having a nice dram with dinner.)


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## Kjetil Heggelund

StevehamNY said:


> Right here in America.
> 
> (Having a nice dram with dinner.)


Nice! We made our dinner into "night-food" and just finished some smoked salmon and scrambled eggs. Since you're American, did you know about the California String Quartet and the sad passing of the 1. violinist? Their recording of the weeks piece was pretty good!


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## StevehamNY

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Nice! We made our dinner into "night-food" and just finished some smoked salmon and scrambled eggs. Since you're American, did you know about the California String Quartet and the sad passing of the 1. violinist? Their recording of the weeks piece was pretty good!


I agree 100% on the Californias' recording of this quartet. I'm slightly ashamed to have been a little surprised they nailed it so well, but a California group taking on a Russian quartet didn't look that promising to me on paper. (Admittedly a little bit of coastal bias also involved here, as I probably wouldn't have had the same thought about a New York-based quartet.) But both quartets on this album are wonderful and I'll never make such an automatic assumption again!

I see that the quartet was formed in 2002 by members of the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra, led by first violinist Katia Popov, who was born in Bulgaria and studied there and then in Paris before moving to the States. Sadly, she passed away in 2018.


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## Philidor

Merl said:


> Who'd have thought that Taneyev would bring out the whisky drinkers on TC?


_There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy._ Some guy called Shakespeare or similar is told to have written this phrase ... and yes, there must be a deep secret in music - it opens our mind and triggers our fantasy ... music starts where words reach the point of their unability to express ...


HenryPenfold said:


> Why is there so much talk about whisky?


Well, we are in a forum, which means "market" or "marketplace". Afaik, markets are governed by supply and demand. So it guess this topic has come in by demand ...


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## Kjetil Heggelund

...even whiskey commercial to the right here...Wyoming 10 year...


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## Malx

Back in 2013 Linn produced a turntable to mark the 40th anniversary of their Sondek, I suspect many here may have liked the package which included the Highland Park. The turntable plinth was made from whiskey barrel oak.
It was a bargain at around £25,000 - makes you wonder what they'll do in 2023 for their 50th.











After two days of no listening I will get around to the Taneyev quartet later today.


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## Malx

Well this is proving to be a very quiet week on the thread as Steve predicted.

I have been concentrating my listening to the California Quartet and Taneyev Quartet recordings, I did sample the Carpe Diem recording but found it a bit dull. While I'll readily admit there are a lot of quartets from this era and part of the world that I find worthy without creating any real desire for repeat plays, this quartet has bucked that trend.
Of the two recordings I have a preference for the California's which is cemented by the performance of the 6th quartet on the same disc which I am equally impressed by - I am being tempted to add this to my collection.
Very interesting selection which I've enjoyed getting to know.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Top 10 String Quartets
Maybe some interesting reading for us music lovers?


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Top 10 String Quartets
> Maybe some interesting reading for us music lovers?


Nothing new in that lot except now theyre finally not recommending the same old, crusty recordings. Nice to see many stellar 21st century performances in there. 🎻 🥳


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## Kreisler jr

The Taneyev #2 is nice but I find it too long and not enough contrast, e.g within the first movement and between the first two.
The best movement is the 3rd slow mvmt., I think.


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## HenryPenfold

Listening to the Carpe Diem performance on Naxos.

At least thought I was!

I have gone back to the California Quartet


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## HenryPenfold

Just finished my second listen today.

I really think Taneyev excelled himself with a most perfect finale to this work.

I didn't think I'd enjoy this quartet as much as I have done this week.

I'm quite surprised how good it is - It goes alongside the usual suspects (Janacek, Martinu, Ravel, Debussy &alia) as my favourite top-flight modern non-BartShos quartets.


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## Allegro Con Brio

A bit amused and surprised to check in and see that there's been more discussion of whiskey than music this week! Love the casual conversational vibe, but on to Taneyev...

There's nothing like an epic Russian work to round off another excellent year of quartet listening. I think this is one of the longest quartets we have done on the thread (unless you count Bach's Art of Fugue), rivaled only by the Schubert 15, Franck, Beethoven's late quartets—maybe Carter and Davies? I feared that I would lose attention, as I often do with large-scale pieces—but this one absolutely grabbed me throughout. What an individual voice Taneyev had! It is often wistful and melancholic, so the Brahmsian comparisons are apt, but there is also a lot of whimsy, fantasy, and melodic and harmonic invention, so I think I hear more debt owed to Schubert. This is very rhapsodic, free-wheeling music, but it's the kind that just sweeps you along. I found the first movement to be the most extraordinary. Most of the movement sounds like one huge development section, moving through cycling terrains of harmonic exploration bound together by top-notch tunefulness. I love how all four instruments are highlighted and play their own unique parts in the narrative. After the equally lovely scherzo, the third movement alternates passionate longing with relaxed lyricism in a paragon of elegiac beauty. Just when I thought the music was in danger of getting a bit repetitive, the finale bursts in with its chipper joy. Such a poetic and appealing work; definitely one of my favorite discoveries of 2022. Thanks so much for it, Steve!

*Kjetil Heggelund *is up next.

Kjetil Heggelund
Enthusiast
Kreisler jr
allaroundmusicenthusiast
HerbertNorman
Philidor
maestro267


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## HenryPenfold

Allegro Con Brio said:


> A bit amused and surprised to check in and see that there's been more discussion of whiskey than music this week! Love the casual conversational vibe, but on to Taneyev...
> 
> There's nothing like an epic Russian work to round off another excellent year of quartet listening. I think this is one of the longest quartets we have done on the thread (unless you count Bach's Art of Fugue), rivaled only by the Schubert 15, Franck, Beethoven's late quartets—maybe Carter and Davies? I feared that I would lose attention, as I often do with large-scale pieces—but this one absolutely grabbed me throughout. What an individual voice Taneyev had! It is often wistful and melancholic, so the Brahmsian comparisons are apt, but there is also a lot of whimsy, fantasy, and melodic and harmonic invention, so I think I hear more debt owed to Schubert. This is very rhapsodic, free-wheeling music, but it's the kind that just sweeps you along. I found the first movement to be the most extraordinary. Most of the movement sounds like one huge development section, moving through cycling terrains of harmonic exploration bound together by top-notch tunefulness. I love how all four instruments are highlighted and play their own unique parts in the narrative. After the equally lovely scherzo, the third movement alternates passionate longing with relaxed lyricism in a paragon of elegiac beauty. Just when I thought the music was in danger of getting a bit repetitive, the finale bursts in with its chipper joy. Such a poetic and appealing work; definitely one of my favorite discoveries of 2022. Thanks so much for it, Steve!
> 
> *Kjetil Heggelund *is up next.
> 
> Kjetil Heggelund
> Enthusiast
> Kreisler jr
> allaroundmusicenthusiast
> HerbertNorman
> Philidor
> maestro267


Whisky. _Whiskey_ is a nearly as nice Irish and/or American drink.

I think your description of the quartet is spot-on, or does that just mean that I agree and like your description!? 🤣

And it is a favourite discovery for me too. I shall definitely bring it into my inner listening choices from now on.

*Edit*: And yes again, it is so good to end the year on such a superb work - great choice Steveham NY


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## StevehamNY

Happy to see that this quartet has been well received this week! I knew there would be a quiet day or two, but there was actually more interaction than I expected. (Very much enjoyed the whisky talk, too! Who bleeping cares if we veer off topic once in a while?)

Also very glad I found the California String Quartet rendition this week, and maybe I got over some of my anti-California bias, too. (Go spend an hour in any Hollywood Starbucks and then we'll talk.)

Most of all, I wish everyone here a very very Happy New Year!


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Wow! It's my turn...I will find a Happy New Year quartet, just wait


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Here is the 1st mvt. of Enigma by Anna Thorvaldsdottir played by the Spektral Quartet. I'm hearing it all on spotify for the first time and think it's an accessible modern quartet that has a mysterious vibe, slowly moving along. Wonder what I'll think the next time I hear it...


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## sbmonty

Really enjoyed the Taneyev quartet. Nice choice. I'm definitely going to explore more of his works. Especially the remaining string quartets. Happy New Year!


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Here is the 1st mvt. of Enigma by Anna Thorvaldsdottir played by the Spektral Quartet. I'm hearing it all on spotify for the first time and think it's an accessible modern quartet that has a mysterious vibe, slowly moving along. Wonder what I'll think the next time I hear it...


So is this your choice?


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Merl said:


> So is this your choice?


Enigma by Anna Thorvaldsdottir is my choice, yes.


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## Merl

I'll listen ASAP. Just got to get through the tedium of 'The Bells' first. New year celebrations really suck. Le yawn.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'll listen ASAP. Just got to get through the tedium of 'The Bells' first. New year celebrations really suck. Le yawn.


I don't find Bells tedious. In fact I prefer it to Famous Grouse.


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## Merl

I'm back on the unpronounceable whisky again tonite, Henry.


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## HenryPenfold

Merl said:


> I'm back on the unpronounceable whisky again tonite, Henry.


Love this whisky thread - and sometimes a string quartet is thrown in too!


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## StevehamNY

A little Scottish tune to mark the occasion...






And a Happy Hogmanay to all of you beautiful quartetophiles!


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## Merl

Quartetophiles. Lol.


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## SearsPoncho

Steve, unfortunately I didn't have the chance to listen to your well-received choice because of an inundation of relatives and holiday plans. I'll try to catch up. 

And to all you degenerate alcoholics...





"...wine is fine but whiskey's quicker." -Famous English philosopher and man of moderation


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## starthrower

SearsPoncho said:


> Steve, unfortunately I didn't have the chance to listen to your well-received choice because of an inundation of relatives and holiday plans. I'll try to catch up.


I'm behind as well. I need to listen to the Joan Tower, and Teneyev quartets.


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## HerbertNorman

Firstly a very Happy New Year to you all , it's been a fun year listening to all the quartets on here !

I liked the Taneyev , especially the scherzo which really got me into the piece! His chamber music is appealing, owing much to Brahms , Schubert even... I know the quintets the best tbh , so it was nice to listen to one of his string quartets again!

Now onto the Enigma by Anna Thorvaldsdottir , exciting one @Kjetil Heggelund !

I am only acquainted with the orchestral work "Dreaming" by her , so it will be a new composition to get to know for me !


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## Kjetil Heggelund

Our weeks composer, Anna Thorvaldsdottir, has just received The Order of the Falcon from her homecountry, Iceland.


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## Malx

Sorry KH I'm just not getting this one - I'll be honest and say I have only listened right through once, I started a second time but decided its not for me 🏳.
I'm sure others will find something that I'm missing but thats where I am with it - but congratulations to her on the award 👏.


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## StevehamNY

I like quartets that bring out and differentiate the timbre of the individual instruments, and I like quartets that offer a unique sound world that I can appreciate especially as I'm drifting off to sleep and I've essentially turned off the music-critical processor part of my mind*. This one checks both boxes, so thank you KH!

(*Not that the "music-critical processor" part of my mind is all that powerful, mind you. It's probably comparable to an old Commodore-64.)


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## starthrower

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Enigma by Anna Thorvaldsdottir is my choice, yes.


I like this one. A good wintertime or late night quartet. I find the music quite moving. The first movement is beautiful! This composer is new to me so I'll be looking in to her other works.


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## Merl

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Our weeks composer, Anna Thorvaldsdottir, has just received The Order of the Falcon from her homecountry, Iceland.


Why does that make me think of her dressed like this? 🤭


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## Carmina Banana

Not quite sure how I feel about this composer at this point. Overall, I enjoyed the piece. The slow pace is attractive. I seem to have especially vibed with the last movement. I guess I would say there is a certain sensuality to the music. We are a long way from New Complexity. On its surface, you could describe this music as long slow notes, often tonally reminiscent and extended techniques acting as a kind of frosting on that cake. I am sensing some big structural plan that holds things together, but can’t put my finger on it.

Interesting how glissandi seem to play an increasingly important part in new music. I am a little bothered by how much those moments in this piece remind me of an animal in distress. 

I am enough interested now to find out more about the composer and hear other works.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Sorry for the late appearance this week, folks. I’ll add my thoughts on the week’s selections as soon as I can. Just wanted to remind *Enthusiast *that he’s up next, and if he does not show up, *Kreisler jr *would choose.


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## SearsPoncho

KH,
Unfortunately, the return to work after holiday festivities is not conducive to listening to much because of stuff like "you have 56 new voice mails," as well as returning to a desk with enough files and paperwork to nearly touch the ceiling, etc. I just started listening to it now. The exploration of various timbre and the slow, hypnotic pace are interesting. I look forward to listening to the rest from a composer worthy of The Order of the Falcon. That title conjures up images similar to what Merl posted. Actually, I was thinking of the exact image Merl posted. Hopefully, I'll enjoy the whole thing, but at a minimum, it's cool she received a badass award and is now a superhero! Merry New Year.


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## starthrower

Carmina Banana said:


> Interesting how glissandi seem to play an increasingly important part in new music. I am a little bothered by how much those moments in this piece remind me of an animal in distress.


It's interesting to read what types of images a piece of music will inspire in listeners. Fortunately, this piece didn't conjure any negative images in my mind.


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## Kjetil Heggelund

When I first heard Thorvaldsdottir some years ago, I immediately fell in love with her sound-world. I might still prefer her orchestral music, but heard the string quartet once and thought you guys would love it here, she is a superhero after all...I do not regret choosing this piece after hearing it some times. To me it's a bit minimalistic, therefore "accessible music" in my mind. I remember her orchestral work as more challenging on the ear.


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## Allegro Con Brio

This is the kind of music that's best for listening in a dim room at night through the best audio equipment you have with as little distraction as possible. It's not abrasive or solipsistically experimental (in fact, it's largely very consonant), but it does open up the ears and force you to listen for how harmony, rhythm, and timbre—the conventional elements of music—interact and banter with the more ambient, natural noises that are the terrain of spectralism. Evocations of birdsong, firecrackers, rushing water, and trains alternate surprisingly but somehow organically with rich chords. I think it is fundamentally an exploration of abstract space. Time seems to move in a different dimension as sounds are meticulously stacked on top of each other, and the concept of motion and forward progress is eliminated, encouraging the listener to hone in on each and every moment. I do think the work is too long for what it needs to be and maybe a bit too ambitious—one does feel a bit overwhelmed by the time the third movement rolls around—but needless to say, I really enjoyed this one. It has a uniquely poetic character that is at once timeless and endlessly imaginative, and which adds yet another totally distinctive compositional voice to the annals of this thread.

P.S. I downloaded the booklet from Idagio, and it sounds like the Spektral Quartet has some quite similar comments below. This is the most recent quartet we've had on the thread, being premiered only a few months before the thread was inaugurated.

"The most striking element of Anna’s music, if I may be so bold, is how immense it sounds, irrespective of the number of players. It is somehow devastatingly personal and profoundly expansive at the same time. This is music without an overt lineage...it is something entirely her own. It is music for staring out the window at cold rain, confronting a contemplative, unhurried dusk. It takes almost no effort, whether in a live or recorded setting, to fold inwards and watch your concerns and the audience around you evaporate from your consciousness."


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## Philidor

Happy New Year to all of you!

Sorry to say that I didn't have much time for music these weeks. At first my wife fell ill one day before Christmas, thus I had to do a lot of housekeeping, then I started a new job on 3 January. So the priorities were a little different around the turn of the year.

However, I would like to say two things:

The first thing is: The Quartet by Thorvaldsdottir impressed me very much. Thanks a lot to Kjetil Heggelund! A unique voice. 

The other thing is: Thank you very much for letting me join this great thread! Most of my musical experiences of the exciting kind last year were coming from this thread. Thank you so much!


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## Mandryka

Re glissandi and animals in distress, this is, I think, the influence of Sciarrino

Quartetto n. 7 (1999) - YouTube


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## starthrower

Mandryka said:


> Re glissandi and animals in distress, this is, I think, the influence of Sciarrino
> 
> Quartetto n. 7 (1999) - YouTube


The animal in distress is my cat when I play something like this too loud!


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## Kreisler jr

I realized only just now that it's my turn a week earlier. My choice is:

*Johannes Brahms: String Quartet Nr. 2 a minor op. 51 Nr. 2*

Plenty of recordings available, so I am not linking any youtube videos (too lazy). Have fun!


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## Merl

Nice choice Kreisler. I've already reviewed the Brahms quartets but I'm going to listen again this week (I have 2 quintet reviews to finish - hopefully this week). Although the 2nd isn't my favourite Brahms quartet (the 3rd is) it's still a fine piece and I particularly love the final movement. I'm sure others will find some enjoyable recordings here (there's absolutely stacks of at least good ones).


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## Kreisler jr

I had this on my shortlist already last time but back then there had been more romantic quartets chosen in the weeks before. And it was a bit of a short notice now, so I couldn't think of anything else. 
This is my favorite Brahms quartet. If the c minor seems, at least in the outer movements, close to Beethoven and the 3rd quartet to Mozart and Haydn, this one might give a nod to Schubert's a minor but I think it is not at all hampered by this or any comparisons. Not that I think the other two are but they seem a bit more "obsessive" to me whereas I find the a minor more "relaxed".


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## sbmonty

I've been meaning to get back to the Brahms quartets. I'll start with the Takács Quartet, coupled with his piano quartet, with Stephen Hough. 
Nice choice!


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## Bwv 1080

Merl said:


> Why does that make me think of her dressed like this? 🤭


I more pictured this









It was a cool piece, was familiar with her 2014 album Aerial, but liked the SQ better - really evocative ambient music.

So time to try again to like the Brahms String Quartets, which always seemed to be Johann at max stodginess


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## SearsPoncho

Yeah, I'm glad this one was chosen. I bought the Amadeus Qt's recordings a long time ago, gave them 1 or 2 spins but wasn't crazy about the music, which is weird because I'm usually crazy about Brahms. Brahms' Quintets - great. Brahms' Sextets - even better. The quartets? Meh. Of course, it's been decades since I last heard them. Looking forward to hopefully changing my mind on the quartets and gettin' jiggy* with my man, JB.

*Does the "gettin jiggy" dance now include a slap?


----------

