# 'Tragic' Symphonies



## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Does anyone else find it strange that there are so many famously dramatic/sad symphonies (mostly late romantic) that adopt the structure 2 sad dramatic movements, 1 joyous/beautiful movement and then 1 last sad dramatic movement that ends tragically. E.g. Tchaikovsky 6, Brahms 4, Mahler 6, Mahler 9,
Is there something going on?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The joy of the third movement makes the final movement more tragic. The higher they rise, the harder one can fall.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Suk's Asrael Symphony is an exception. For instance, movements:
I. Angry, bitter, dramatic
II. Quiet but uneasy 
III. Bitingly joking at the beginning, then poignancy, then drama
IV. In remembrance of Suk's wife Otilie Suková
V. Drama, struggle, and in the end, a quiet, uneasy acceptance of reality yielding to hope

So, there is really no joy in this symphony (or of Bruckner's Ninth or Glazunov's Eighth or even Rachmaninov's First for that matter). Other exceptions: Popov's First Symphony or Shostakovich's Fourth or Myaskovsky's Sixth.

But Schmidt's Fourth Symphony is closer to your thread and your list of examples.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

ORigel said:


> The joy of the third movement makes the final movement more tragic. The higher they rise, the harder one can fall.


In the case of Brahms 4, I think the scherzo is genuinely one of the most fun and carefree pieces Brahms ever wrote, followed by the gaping abyss of the finale, a virtuosic blizzard of compositional genius. The Tchaikovsky 6 third movement I see as ironic or satirical, purposefully tasteless - there is literally no development, the same material is repeated over and over for 8 minutes until the bombastic final climax. And, not to proselytize, but the true effect of "joyful third movement followed by tragic finale" cannot happen in Mahler's 6th unless the order of movements is Scherzo-Andante. The Andante is a paean to love, life, nature, and spirituality; followed by the epic, expressionistic, self-flagellating drama of the finale where we're (quite literally) pounded mercilessly into the ground.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Does anyone else find it strange that there are so many famously dramatic/sad symphonies (mostly late romantic) that adopt the structure 2 sad dramatic movements, 1 joyous/beautiful movement and then 1 last sad dramatic movement that ends tragically. E.g. Tchaikovsky 6, Brahms 4, Mahler 6, Mahler 9, Is there something going on?_

I think just about every first movement from Mahler is tragic; most begin with a funeral march.

I don't know of other composers I would necessarily label tragic. I also wouldn't necessarily say the above composers had movements I would label either joyous or beautiful aside from perhaps the Brahms 2nd symphony.

To me this sounds more like the way you hear the music. I hear it differently.


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## BenG (Aug 28, 2018)

Orfeo said:


> Suk's Asrael Symphony is an exception. For instance, movements:
> I. Angry, bitter, dramatic
> II. Quiet but uneasy
> III. Bitingly joking at the beginning, then poignancy, then drama
> ...


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> In the case of Brahms 4, I think the scherzo is genuinely one of the most fun and carefree pieces Brahms ever wrote, followed by the gaping abyss of the finale, a virtuosic blizzard of compositional genius. The Tchaikovsky 6 third movement I see as ironic or satirical, purposefully tasteless - there is literally no development, the same material is repeated over and over for 8 minutes until the bombastic final climax. And, not to proselytize, but the true effect of "joyful third movement followed by tragic finale" cannot happen in Mahler's 6th unless the order of movements is Scherzo-Andante. The Andante is a paean to love, life, nature, and spirituality; followed by the epic, expressionistic, self-flagellating drama of the finale where we're (quite literally) pounded mercilessly into the ground.


I find Mahler tough to grasp so I don't get all of his symphonic movements yet.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

BenG said:


> Orfeo said:
> 
> 
> > Suk's Asrael Symphony is an exception. For instance, movements:
> ...


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

BenG said:


> Does anyone else find it strange that there are so many famously dramatic/sad symphonies (mostly late romantic) that adopt the structure 2 sad dramatic movements, 1 joyous/beautiful movement and then 1 last sad dramatic movement that ends tragically. E.g. Tchaikovsky 6, Brahms 4, Mahler 6, Mahler 9,
> Is there something going on?





ORigel said:


> The joy of the third movement makes the final movement more tragic. The higher they rise, the harder one can fall.


ORigel has it encapsulated in a terse statement.

This is a challenging topic. Not solvable in any single, brief post.

Of course, tragedy (in the dramatic form, which pre-dates musical forms by several centuries) demands a dark, sad, ruinous, pain-ridden and even death-producing ending. True dramatic tragedy (not melodrama) puts a generally good, heroic, righteous character into an inescapable situation I like to describe, in my own terse terms, as one where the "tragic hero" (as he or she is called) has to make a choice between two bad options, both of which lead to ruin or death, and he or she chooses the one that better maintains his personal dignity, though it ultimately leads to his/her ruination.

One of the great elements of tragedy is that it builds up on hope, continually promising the "tragic hero" a way out of the dilemma, with an ever greater, more positive chance of success. Of course, it's all an illusion, and at the very crest of what appears to be the "freeing solution" that solves the character's dilemma, the truth is revealed and the character is plunged into total despair.

Actually, a secret of true tragedy is that it takes the tragic character to a place of utter restfulness simply because he or she comes to a place where there is absolutely no hope left, and thus there is nothing left to do but settle into the situation in peace. In that sense tragedy is restful, peaceful, but still dark nonetheless.

One must think that a tragic symphony would offer episodes of relief and promise, perhaps promoting glimpses of the main theme in major mode before the final shift to the dark and despairing minor. Tchaikovsky's great Sixth Symphony is a wonderful study in tragedy, where the first three movements, even with hints of darkness at the edges, ultimately deliver hope. Especially that third movement, right before the finale comes at us, with its darkness and despair.

Music operates by different rules from drama, but there are means by which to convey a tragic sense. All of those means will in some sense promote a joyous or comic episode prior to the great plunge into the dark abyss. There can be no tragedy without prodding hope. Otherwise what we get is simply angst, which isn't tragic but rather simply depressing. At the end of a great dramatic tragedy (such as Sophocles' _Oedipus_) the audience is left with the feeling that all is right, even though the tragic hero paid a great price. Otherwise, there is only a feeling of sickening ugliness, as in a satire (a melodramatic, not a tragic, form). In such a satire, the character makes a choice, but not one that promotes the social good or his own dignity, and the audience can only cringe.

I think of the Shostakovich 14th Symphony as being of this second sort of despairing work, one which offers no hope or promise, only bitterness and despair. Which is what I think the purpose of that symphony is. It's quite unlike the Tchaikovsky 6th which is a true tragic symphony. But that doesn't take away from the work's artfulness. Sophocles' _Oedipus_ is a sublime work of art, the darkest of tragedies; but so is Shakespeare's _King Lear_, which offers little in the way of hope or satisfaction.

Musical forms allow for tragic music, but not all of what we might deem "tragic" is truly that. It belongs to a different category, closer to the term angst-ful or despairing. But still great art.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

ORigel said:


> The joy of the third movement makes the final movement more tragic. The higher they rise, the harder one can fall.


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