# Weird voice type choice



## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Sometimes it happens to me that when I see the list of the roles of a certain opera, I feel like: "N. is a tenor?! No way!" or something like that.
Recently it happened to me when I opened synopsis of "The Dawns Here Are Quiet" by Molchanov. I know the book it is based on pretty well (novel by Boris Vasilyev) and I was really surprised and strongly disagree about choice of voice types for a few characters.

Does this happen to you? Suggest the choices of voice types that surprised you and let's discuss and assign the right voice type for each character.

Also for fun you can suggest historical figures or fictional characters and we can discuss what voice type you think they should sing.:tiphat:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Not really, but I wish there were better roles for the deeper voice types as opera is very high voice dominated when it comes to the characters that get the juiciest arias.

I find it interesting that some operas that are based on the same works/characters use different voice types for the same character, which shows how different composers can perceive different roles. Almaviva in Rossini is a tenor, but a baritone in Mozart's setting of the sequel.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Some sopranos took on Carmen, a mezzo role. (Gheorghiu, Callas, Moffo, del los Angeles, to name a few).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I think immediately of Wagner's comment when asked if Parsifal was supposed to represent Christ. "What? Christ a tenor? Phooey!"

A case could be made for Otello being written for a baritone and Iago for a tenor. 19th-century Italian audiences might have found that odd, but the more I consider it the more I like it.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

The Conte said:


> but I wish there were better roles for the deeper voice types as opera is very high voice dominated when it comes to the characters that get the juiciest arias.
> 
> N.


Same for me. I'm a deeper voice myself; and I also love deep male voices. 
It's weird how composers prefer to use the upper part of the range even of basses, bass-baritones and baritones, meanwhile I would like hear more of the lower parts of their range. They're always fantastic and I always enjoy hearing them, but I love hearing the lower part of their range the most. It's really strange to me that the composers use the upper half of their range the vast majority of the time with letting them go into the lover half of their range only occasionally and for a short period of time, let alone some of their lowest notes which are even more rare.



The Conte said:


> I find it interesting that some operas that are based on the same works/characters use different voice types for the same character, which shows how different composers can perceive different roles. Almaviva in Rossini is a tenor, but a baritone in Mozart's setting of the sequel.
> 
> N.


Yes, I saw this quite a bit, too. As for "The Dawns Here Are Quiet" there's also a chinese opera with the same title and the voice type choice there is closer to how I perceive it but not ideal though.

I noticed that usually in such cases there's a difference, but it is usually quite a slight one - tenor instead of baritone, for example, but rarely tenor instead of bass (or vice versa). Unless the opera is transposed down an octave and all the mezzos become baritones, and all the altos and countertenors become bass-baritones, and tenors(and ocasionally countertenors) become basses.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> Some sopranos took on Carmen, a mezzo role. (Gheorghiu, Callas, Moffo, del los Angeles, to name a few).


Yes, and Wikipedia even says "Mezzo or Contralto" for Carmen.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> A case could be made for Otello being written for a baritone and Iago for a tenor. 19th-century Italian audiences might have found that odd, but the more I consider it the more I like it.


It was one of that cases for me. "Iago, a baritone? No way!" Only a tenor, and a nasty one Something closer to buffo I would guess, with a distinctive tone.
As for Otello I don't know, might be baritone or a tenor, too. But no way a bass. My first thought was that it should be a baritone most likely, but partly because I thought that two tenors for the main roles would be problematic. But it might be a tenor, too, not that unrealistic at least.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I think immediately of Wagner's comment when asked if Parsifal was supposed to represent Christ. "What? Christ a tenor? Phooey!"
> 
> A case could be made for Otello being written for a baritone and Iago for a tenor. 19th-century Italian audiences might have found that odd, but the more I consider it the more I like it.


Yes, that works. Of course in Rossini's Otello Iago _is_ a tenor.

N.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I think that heroes need to be tenors and villains need to be baritones. Basses must always be kindly and avuncular. Sopranos saintly and hard done by. Mezzos and contraltos malevolent at worst, shrewish and manipulative sometimes and concerned companionable types at best. Best not to speak of counter-tenors. :lol:


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> I think that heroes need to be tenors


 I always laugh when I see a hero who is a tenor. I'm like:"Really??" I just can't imagine that, anything but a tenor. Unless you're talking about a romantic lead, or characters like Verter or Hoffmann. The only exception when I can imagine a tenor being a hero - if the character is exteremely young. (But then again, young characters who sing tenor might be anything, not neccessarily a hero.) But maybe that's because I just don't like them.


Barbebleu said:


> and villains need to be baritones


 As for the villains I don't have a set-in-stone oppinion, they could be anything, with the bass being the least likely one. They could be even a counter-tenor; after I heard Polinesso this idea doesn't look that unlikely to me. Tenors aren't that hard to imagine either - a cunning one. But baritones just statistically will be the more likely to be one(if basses rarely are ones, countertenors are rare in general, tenors aren't the most common voice type for this role either, then who else is left?).


Barbebleu said:


> Best not to speak of counter-tenors.:lol:


 Ok, I wouldn't.  Actually I'm ok with them, although they aren't my favourite voice type either.

I would prefer to hear more different voice types as lead characters, at least for a change. Not just because I like those voice types. 
Actually my theory is that all the voice types should be equally represented for each type of the role (i.e. we will be able to find a big amount of characters of each voice type for the leading role, for the bad guy, the side characters, etc.). Like in real life, the certain type of personality posesses all kind of voices possible.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner considered having Klingsor sung by a castrato. Good thing he realized the impracticality of that. _Parsifal_ fans are pretty fanatical, and some of them are probably good with knives.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Just to be clear, in case anyone took my post seriously, I was, I hope, gently poking fun at vocal stereotypes. :tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> I think that heroes need to be tenors and villains need to be baritones. Basses must always be kindly and avuncular. Sopranos saintly and hard done by. Mezzos and contraltos malevolent at worst, shrewish and manipulative sometimes and concerned companionable types at best. Best not to speak of counter-tenors. :lol:


Mezzos and contraltos are sometimes supposed to be sensuous and erotic as well (Dalila and Carmen) though they often just sound motherly.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

There are some comparisons where the parts have subsequently been transposed in revivals
e.g. Romeo in Bellini's _I Capuleti e Montecchi_
Originally





Transposed for tenor





Lots of the roles in _L' incoronazione di Poppea_ was transposed every way when recorded in the 50s 60s and 70s





_Giulio Cesare_ has been treated that way too





Besides that, there are examples endorsed by the composer like Gluck's _Orfeo_ in various versions with mezzo and tenor or the baritone version of Massenet's _Werther_.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The role of Cressida in Walton’s opera was written for Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, though she only ever recorded extracts and never sang it on stage. The role was taken by Magda Laszlo in the premiere. Later Walton adapted the role so that Dame Janet Baker could sing it. Both the mezzo and soprano versions have been recorded too.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> Just to be clear, in case anyone took my post seriously, I was, I hope, gently poking fun at vocal stereotypes. :tiphat:


I was kinda suspecting that this is the case, but more than a few times I heard people saying the same thing completely seriously. Besides they insisted a bass should be the bad guy, along with the baritone.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Thanks. For some transposed operas I prefer the original version, and for some a transposed one. For example although vocally(I mean, hearing this version is more pleasant for me) I prefer a tenor version of "Sovra balze", Gioffredo's aria in Rinaldo, a counter-tenor version feels more in place and transmitts the vibe better.



Revitalized Classics said:


> or the baritone version of Massenet's _Werther_.


 I can hardly imagine Werther a baritone.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Mezzos and contraltos malevolent at worst, shrewish and manipulative sometimes and concerned companionable types at best.
> Mezzos and contraltos are sometimes supposed to be sensuous and erotic as well (Dalila and Carmen) though they often just sound motherly.


Yes, sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't.

Although I think that all the voice type should be presented in each role type equally or close to that, if I'll be selecting the stereotypes, it would be mezzos and contralto's who are sensual or violent.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I think immediately of Wagner's comment when asked if Parsifal was supposed to represent Christ. "What? Christ a tenor? Phooey!"
> 
> A case could be made for Otello being written for a baritone and Iago for a tenor. 19th-century Italian audiences might have found that odd, but the more I consider it the more I like it.


I always thought that Billy Budd and Captain Vere should have changed voice places. Somehow the Captain, for me, should have a deeper and more authoritative voice.
In fact, Vere should be the bass and Claggart the baritone.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Just to be clear, in case anyone took my post seriously, I was, I hope, gently poking fun at vocal stereotypes. :tiphat:


It was with much relief I read this post - I had (sad to say) taken you seriously.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

nina foresti said:


> I always thought that Billy Budd and Captain Vere should have changed voice places. Somehow the Captain, for me, should have a deeper and more authoritative voice.
> In fact, Vere should be the bass and Claggart the baritone.


In the hands of any other composer Billy would have been a tenor and Vere a baritone, but the unusual setup works out really well. It's easier to find a hot, ripped baritone than a tenor.

Claggart went to the Hagen and Grand Inquisitor school, he's perfect as a bass. He even steals the Grand Inquisitor's entrance music!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sieglinde said:


> In the hands of any other composer Billy would have been a tenor and Vere a baritone, but the unusual setup works out really well. It's easier to find a hot, ripped baritone than a tenor.
> 
> Claggart went to the Hagen and Grand Inquisitor school, he's perfect as a bass. He even steals the Grand Inquisitor's entrance music!


I think the vocal casting in *Billy Budd* is brilliant. Vere, after all, is no conventional leader figure. He is a visionary, an intellectual, and of course the role was written with Pears's voice and his peculiar gifts in mind. I can't really imagine any of the roles being cast differently.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I think the vocal casting in *Billy Budd* is brilliant. Vere, after all, is no conventional leader figure. He is a visionary, an intellectual, and of course the role was written with Pears's voice and his peculiar gifts in mind. I can't really imagine any of the roles being cast differently.


I agree and it also adds to the lack of interesting baritone lead roles.

N.


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

Sieglinde said:


> In the hands of any other composer Billy would have been a tenor and Vere a baritone, but the unusual setup works out really well. It's easier to find a hot, ripped baritone than a tenor.
> 
> Claggart went to the Hagen and Grand Inquisitor school, he's perfect as a bass. He even steals the Grand Inquisitor's entrance music!


Now I feel like I should definitely hear it.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

baritones are under-cast in heroic roles. sometimes you want a hero to be mighty and formidable, not sympathetic


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## Elvira0518 (Mar 1, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> baritones are under-cast in heroic roles. sometimes you want a hero to be mighty and formidable, not sympathetic


Exactly. I personally just cannot imagine a hero being a tenor, unless he's in his very young years, like a teenager or something like this.
But it might be because I just like basses and baritones and don't like tenors.


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