# Carmina Burana recording recommendations?



## Declined

In preparation to see the Florida Orchestra perform Carmina Burana, I'd like to familiarize myself with the work. I'm looking for something that has good sound quality and is rather energetic and exciting. I'm considering Robert Shaw with the Atlantic Symphonic Orchestra or Blomstedt with the San Fransisco Symphony. Any other recommendations that would fit what I want? Thanks.


----------



## JohnD

This one is a classic:

http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-...qid=1413250638&sr=1-1&keywords=carmina+burana


----------



## Declined

JohnD said:


> This one is a classic:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-...qid=1413250638&sr=1-1&keywords=carmina+burana


So I've heard. How old is it? How's the sound quality?


----------



## Triplets

Blomstedt is a good choice. Fruebeck De Borgos also good.


----------



## QuietGuy

James Levine/Chicago on DG


----------



## Pugg

If your equipment can handle things, the above one is the one to go for.:tiphat:
Safe option Riccaro Muti.


----------



## science

My feeling about things like this is, start with the most famous one, the one that has been long considered great. I find that if I start with anything other than the most famous recordings, I eventually wind up buying the most famous recordings anyway. Starting out with some random recommendation you found on the internet is the way to wind up wasting money on recordings that eventually you replace anyway. If you want more later, you can get a more modern one, a more idiosyncratic interpretation, whatever.


----------



## david johnson

emi/Rafael Fruhbeck de Burgos/philharmonia


----------



## PetrB

Here is a filmed production, directed by Jean-Pierre Ponnelle, this presentation more how Orff had hoped it to be, but rarely done.





In reading the uploader's text, I was surprised to learn that when it was first written, and as late as the 80's, its mix of pagan and christian, sacred and profane was 'controversial,' and that was enough the film was in some places banned, the work itself more than problematical for its German (and other audiences) in the 1930's

"This was the dramatic rendition of Carl Orff's most famous piece of music, how he wanted it to look but seldom performed as such nowadays. It was finally filmed by West German TV in 1975 with the close co-operation of Orff in honour of his 80th birthday. The various stories of young lust and gluttony are playfully and skillfully brought to life. This version of Orff's masterpiece of the sacred and profane was hard to find in Germany. Not so strange, it was banned there for decades, most likely because of its almost literal interpretation of the texts Orff put music to. I first saw this when I was 12-13 years old at the Goethe Institute in Bergen, Norway, with my father, sister and mother. Someone had managed to get hold of an 8mm film roll with it and had a secret screening. This was in the 1980s and, believe it or not, there were strong forces opposed to what they considered blasphemous content in films. The mixture of Christian and pagan imagery is completely consistent with the lyrics, which were found in a monastery, and are a mixture of sacred and profane songs, but were obviously too tough to swallow. Copies of the film were destroyed, but luckily, art prevailed."


----------



## PetrB

And there is always this


----------



## hpowders

Either the Ozawa or the Jochum.


----------



## Vaneyes

Yes, it's getting to be that time again. My once-a-year playing of Carmina Burana.

And the winner is, RPO/Dorati et al (rec.1976).


----------



## Couac Addict

PetrB said:


> Here is a filmed production, directed by Jean-Pierre Ponnelle, this presentation more how Orff had hoped it to be, but rarely done.


Someone _has_ to bring to this to the stage again. Awesome.


----------



## PetrB

Couac Addict said:


> Someone _has_ to bring to this to the stage again. Awesome.


It certainly brings the thing down to earth, and in the doing elevates the work in the best possible way.

The texts were written, mainly, by students...
"They were written by students and clergy when the Latin idiom was the Lingua Franca across Italy and western Europe for traveling scholars, universities and theologians. Most of the poems and songs appear to be the work of Goliards, clergy (mostly students)....

... in Medieval Latin; a few in Middle High German, and some with traces of Old French or Provençal. Some are macaronic, a mixture of Latin and German or French vernacular." *

It might help to think of those students in medieval Europe as being mostly a group who were the scions of wealthier burghers and the titled aristocracy, the modern equivalent of somewhat spoiled and privileged teen-age males sent off to an exclusive boarding school / academy, in the hopes those entitled rowdy, adolescent, and socially rough lads will acquire a bit of education, and a very lacking adult demeanor and polish.

Nonetheless, they too spent their pocket money (or found ways) to drink, carouse, and generally misbehave, just as their contemporary versions do, and they also wrote in less than a polished manner, including errors in spelling and grammar (and those errors in German, Latin, and French), some fun, satiric, romantic, verses -- almost none of it 'great poetry.'

All that accounts for the broad and often 'sophomoric' tone of these texts, their sardonic and mocking nature, and that sheer lustiness of adolescence, both the profane sort as well as in the primary meaning of _lust_; hale, strong, healthily alive.

To the OP, *the original texts Orff selected for the work and their translations are easily found online.* It will certainly deepen the pleasure to know more specifically what is being sung!

And, hoping you have a great time!

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Burana


----------



## Declined

Triplets said:


> Blomstedt is a good choice.


Found it on Amazon for $4. Bought it. Open to another one to complement it.


----------



## Badinerie

The Jochum DG is great. Gundula Janowitz with Dietrich Fischer Dieskau, and Gerhard Stolze does a fantastic Olim Iacus Coluerum. (No 12) Ive Heard more dynamic versions, but never more gorgeously sung!


----------



## elgar's ghost

Declined said:


> So I've heard. How old is it? How's the sound quality?


The Jochum was recorded in 1967 - it can sound a bit undynamic in places compared to more modern recordings but I'd say that overall it's good for its age.


----------



## D Smith

I can also recommend the Jochum with the de Burgos a close second. Jochum has the best soloists, but I always preferred the chorus slightly in de Burgos.


----------



## Declined

Based on the recommendations, I will get the Jochum. Thanks.


----------



## hpowders

^^^A very fine choice!!!


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Declined said:


> Based on the recommendations, I will get the Jochum. Thanks.


You can't go wrong with Jochum for _Carmina Burana_. It's been the prime recommendation ever since it was released in 1968.






However, if you're looking for an excellent version in magnificent modern (i.e., digital) sound, I whole-heartedly recommend the one by Donald Runnicles conducting the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra & Chorus on Telarc.










It's fabulous.


----------



## echmain

This one! Oh, four tuna!

http://carmina.ytmnd.com/


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Well, thanks to the recommendations of everyone on this thread I just bought three more versions of _Carmina Burana_:

*Antal Doráti*


*Rafael Frühbeck De Burgos*


*Christian Thielemann*


Thanks, chaps and chapettes.

_Edit:_ I just bought another one...

*Eugen Jochum*


And I wouldn't mind buying a few more as well.


----------



## Badinerie

We've created a monster! Lol......

but if its more your after....this ones a corker.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content









This one I bought in the 70's on lp (Great Performance series) Still love it...


----------



## quack

And STILL none of them are the piano reduction version.

It's not very good though, I shouldn't bother.

OR the Ray Manzarek (of The Doors) version

Oh god I could have died happy never knowing this


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Badinerie said:


> We've created a monster! ...


Yep.



> ... Lol......
> 
> but if its more your after....


It is.



> this ones a corker.
> 
> View attachment 53615


Excellent. I'll be happy to buy that one as well, er, sometime. (I ran out of money.)



> This one I bought in the 70's on lp (Great Performance series) Still love it...
> 
> View attachment 53616


Me too. Ormandy's was the first _Carmina Burana_ CD I bought, years ago:


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Incidentally, another _Carmina Burana_ I'm keen on buying (once more money is available) is the one by Riccardo Muti. It was reviewed very positively in _High Fidelity Review_. The review was actually of Thielemann's version (which is one of the _Carmina Burana_ CDs in my recent haul), but Muti got a fairly hefty mention.

This is the bit about Muti:

* * *​
"[T]he most powerful and adrenaline-fueled rendition of 'Carmina Burana' is the thrilling performance Riccardo Muti recorded with the Philharmonia Orchestra in 1980 for EMI. Its sound is not always as clear as the finest modern recordings, but it packs plenty of wallop and a number of things make Muti's relentless performance a must for any collection of Orff recordings. One is that Muti is a dramatist of the first rank, and he knows how to build up the cumulative tension in this work like no other conductor. An additional bonus is that he actually follows more of Orff's detailed instructions than most conductors (although he does not follow all). One of the high points is the drinking song "In Taberna Quando Sumus" which Muti does to perfection. He wisely chooses a tempo that is vigorous yet slow enough for the chorus to actually hit all the words with force, instead of scrambling to keep up with an impossible tempo as in Dutoit or Tilson Thomas' recordings. And most treasurable of all is Arleen Auger's exquisite singing of "Dulcissime". Here, for once, we can hear the poised, rapturous ecstasy that Orff was trying to capture, instead of an excruciating squeal that sounds like someone strangling a cougar. No other soprano I've heard has even come close to floating those extreme high notes with such sweetness and grace as Auger. Though less than a minute long, Auger's "Dulcissime" is one of the supreme moments in the history of recording, well worth the CD's current budget price all in itself. The downside of Muti's performance is in his relative unwillingness to slow down and savor the music of the "Cour d'Amours" section, although his continuous forward-press holds the work effectively together. It would be interesting to hear Muti's approach to this work now, a quarter of a century later, when his youthful adrenaline has begun to be replaced with the insight of age."

[_From:_ http://www.highfidelityreview.com/chorus-and-orchestra-of-the-deutsche-oper-berlin-thielemann-orff-carmina-burana-a-dvd-audio-review-by-mark-jordan.html]

* * *​
Yes please.


----------



## elgar's ghost

PPP, I think you might want to try the other two often overlooked works that make up Trionfi (Catulli Carmina and Trionfo di Afrodite). Welser-Most on EMI is a handy way to complete the set.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61OJ5H6o4cL._SX425_.jpg


----------



## PeterPowerPop

elgars ghost said:


> PPP, I think you might want to try the other two often overlooked works that make up Trionfi (Catulli Carmina and Trionfo di Afrodite). Welser-Most on EMI is a handy way to complete the set.


That sounds mighty tempting, EG.

I'm pleased to say (very quietly) that I found the Kegel set on my electronic travels. (Hello, Internet.)



I'm looking forward to hearing the whole thing. And then buying it.


----------



## elgar's ghost

PeterPowerPop said:


> That sounds mighty tempting, EG.
> 
> I'm pleased to say (very quietly) that I found the Kegel set on my electronic travels. (Hello, Internet.)
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing the whole thing. And then buying it.


I don't know if it's of any importance but Berlin Classics' recordings of vocal works often come without the text or at best in German only, and I'm fairly sure that's the case here as well. The Welser-Most recording I provided a link for does provide texts and translations.


----------



## Bruce

My own favorite is Tilson-Thomas with the Cleveland Orchestra, though I have not compared many other recordings to this. The high point, for me, is Judith Blegan, whose Dulcissime is the sweetest, purest singing I've heard. I have compared this to many other versions, and Blegen is far and away the best suited to this delicate, musical musing. So many other sopranos seem to belt out the high notes in the Dulcissime, and I think that detracts from the mood of the piece. Blegen's "In Trutina" also captures the sensitive, introverted nature of a young woman caught between giving herself to her lover, or keeping herself untouched. Blegen really brings out the nature of the gentle but painful conflict she suffers. 

Tilson-Thomas's version of Carmina was the first version of this I heard way back in the 70s on an LP. It was transferred to CD; I don't know if it is still available. It may be dated. At any rate, I'm quite curious now to hear some of the other versions recommended in this thread. It will make for some interesting comparative listening.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Bruce said:


> My own favorite is Tilson-Thomas with the Cleveland Orchestra, though I have not compared many other recordings to this. The high point, for me, is Judith Blegan, whose Dulcissime is the sweetest, purest singing I've heard. I have compared this to many other versions, and Blegen is far and away the best suited to this delicate, musical musing. So many other sopranos seem to belt out the high notes in the Dulcissime, and I think that detracts from the mood of the piece. Blegen's "In Trutina" also captures the sensitive, introverted nature of a young woman caught between giving herself to her lover, or keeping herself untouched. Blegen really brings out the nature of the gentle but painful conflict she suffers.
> 
> Tilson-Thomas's version of Carmina was the first version of this I heard way back in the 70s on an LP. It was transferred to CD; I don't know if it is still available. It may be dated. At any rate, I'm quite curious now to hear some of the other versions recommended in this thread. It will make for some interesting comparative listening.


Tilson Thomas' 1974 recording has been released on CD - twice:

1994


2005


Given your enthusiasm, I'll be on the lookout for it.

Unfortunately, the _High Fidelity Review_ guy (Mark Jordan) wasn't as keen on the recording as you were:

* * *​
"[Riccardo Muti] wisely chooses a tempo that is vigorous yet slow enough for the chorus to actually hit all the words with force, instead of scrambling to keep up with an impossible tempo as in Dutoit or Tilson Thomas' recordings."

"Another past Grammy winner was the mid-1970's recording by Michael Tilson Thomas and the Cleveland Orchestra. It certainly has its fans, and for variety from the "standard" approach to the work, I suppose it is recommendable. But the fast tempos are so wildly fast, the chorus seems to direct most of its energy to keeping up with the hyperactive conductor, thus there is little in the way of characterization and impact in the choruses. And in terms of recorded sound, this CBS recording strikes me as downright peculiar. Most prominent of all the instruments in the orchestra is the piano, followed by the percussion instruments, with the rest of the orchestra chiming mostly as if from another room, with the exception of the occasional spot microphone glaringly highlighting an instrument or section."

(From: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/chorus-and-orchestra-of-the-deutsche-oper-berlin-thielemann-orff-carmina-burana-a-dvd-audio-review-by-mark-jordan.html)

* * *​
Nevertheless, I do want to hear it.

The CD is not too expensive (eBay is currently selling it for about AUS$12, and my favourite Australian online retailer has it for $9.95), so I reckon I'll grab it sometime.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

elgars ghost said:


> I don't know if it's of any importance but Berlin Classics' recordings of vocal works often come without the text or at best in German only, and I'm fairly sure that's the case here as well. The Welser-Most recording I provided a link for does provide texts and translations.


The lyrics would be handy (although I must admit that I rarely read along with music - I just enjoy the glorious sounds I'm hearing), but it's no great drama if they're not there. The lyrics/text/libretto/whatever-you-want-to-call-them are available online in two places:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~charles57/Carmina/carmlyr.htm

http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.php

Easy.

I've just checked the booklet that accompanies the Kegel set, and it doesn't have the text. (It does have track titles, liner notes, and recording details.)

As for the other works in _Trionfi_ (_Catulli Carmina_ and _Trionfo di Afrodite_), I guess I'll just have to make do with the music.


----------



## techniquest

> As for the other works in Trionfi (Catulli Carmina and Trionfo di Afrodite), I guess I'll just have to make do with the music.


That Kegel set of the Tronfi is really good; I've had it on vinyl for years and still enjoy it.
The text for Catulli Carmina is very risque and leaves little to the imagination, but it can be seen here: http://www.duzan.org/gary/catulli_carmina.html


----------



## techniquest

I'm reminded that there is a 2-disc set of the Trionfi recorded in the presence of the composer in 1953 and 1956 with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra & Choir conducted by Eugen Jochum. It's on the Major Classics label. The recordings are really rather ropey, but nonetheless interesting to listen to.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

And the _Carmina Burana_s keep on comin'...

I just bought another five:


Blomstedt
Chailly
Mackerras (a 2-CD set, with Holst's _The Planets_ and _The Perfect Fool_ on the second disc, which are conducted by David Hill)
Prestel
Heltay (I don't have any information about this one, but it's a 2-CD set that was cheap on eBay, and I'm game)

This is in addition to the four I bought a couple of weeks ago:


Doráti
Frühbeck De Burgos
Jochum
Thielemann

_To Badinerie:_ When you said "We've created a monster!", you weren't whistling Dixie, baby. (Oh, and thanks for recommending the Chailly. I bought it.)


----------



## Markbridge

Bruce said:


> My own favorite is Tilson-Thomas with the Cleveland Orchestra, though I have not compared many other recordings to this. The high point, for me, is Judith Blegan, whose Dulcissime is the sweetest, purest singing I've heard. I have compared this to many other versions, and Blegen is far and away the best suited to this delicate, musical musing. So many other sopranos seem to belt out the high notes in the Dulcissime, and I think that detracts from the mood of the piece. Blegen's "In Trutina" also captures the sensitive, introverted nature of a young woman caught between giving herself to her lover, or keeping herself untouched. Blegen really brings out the nature of the gentle but painful conflict she suffers.
> 
> Tilson-Thomas's version of Carmina was the first version of this I heard way back in the 70s on an LP. It was transferred to CD; I don't know if it is still available. It may be dated. At any rate, I'm quite curious now to hear some of the other versions recommended in this thread. It will make for some interesting comparative listening.


Wow, I almost could have written this myself! Ok, Jochum's was the first one I got to know back in the '70s. I used to put on the reel-to-reel tape on Saturday mornings and dance to it while in the shower.  I eventually ended up with four or so versions, including the Thomas. Boy, was I blown away with his version. It immediately became my favorite.

Yes, it is available on CD. I snatched it up as soon as it became available. While I have a four versions on CD, Thomas', and now Muti's, are my favorites. I've heard good things about the Runnicles' and might have to pick it up someday.


----------



## Badinerie

PeterPowerPop said:


> And the _Carmina Burana_s keep on comin'...
> 
> I just bought another five:
> 
> 
> Blomstedt
> Chailly
> Mackerras (a 2-CD set, with Holst's _The Planets_ and _The Perfect Fool_ on the second disc, which are conducted by David Hill)
> Prestel
> Heltay (I don't have any information about this one, but it's a 2-CD set that was cheap on eBay, and I'm game)
> 
> This is in addition to the four I bought a couple of weeks ago:
> 
> 
> Doráti
> Frühbeck De Burgos
> Jochum
> Thielemann
> 
> _To Badinerie:_ When you said "We've created a monster!", you weren't whistling Dixie, baby. (Oh, and thanks for recommending the Chailly. I bought it.)


You're very welcome!


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Markbridge said:


> ... I've heard good things about the Runnicles' and might have to pick it up someday.


I thoroughly recommend Runnicles' _Carmina Burana_. Apart from the stunningly good sound quality, the performance sounds wonderfully spontaneous (something I don't hear in a lot of "thought out" recordings).

I can post a few representative tracks on YouTube if you like. (I don't think the 30-second snippets on Amazon.com are all that helpful.)

*Reviews:*

Amazon.com
ArkivMusic
Classics Today
MusicWeb International
SA-CD.net


----------



## PeterPowerPop

PeterPowerPop said:


> And the _Carmina Burana_s keep on comin'...
> 
> I just bought another five:
> 
> 
> Blomstedt
> Chailly
> Mackerras (a 2-CD set, with Holst's _The Planets_ and _The Perfect Fool_ on the second disc, conducted by David Hill)
> Prestel
> Heltay (I don't have any information about this one, but it's a 2-CD set that was cheap on eBay, and I'm game)
> 
> This is in addition to the four I bought a couple of weeks ago:
> 
> 
> Doráti
> Frühbeck De Burgos
> Jochum
> Thielemann
> 
> _To Badinerie:_ When you said "We've created a monster!", you weren't whistling Dixie, baby. (Oh, and thanks for recommending the Chailly. I bought it.)


And more _Carmina Burana_s...

I just bought these:


Cooke
Muti
Pople
Welser-Möst


----------



## DavidA

I'd actually recommend you didn't listen to it at all!


----------



## PeterPowerPop

DavidA said:


> I'd actually recommend you didn't listen to it at all!


What? _Carmina Burana_?

Too late, I'm afraid. I've been buyin', listenin', and enjoyin' them all.

Well, that's not strictly true. Of all the _Carmina Burana_s that have come my way, the only thing I haven't enjoyed is the cover for the Riccardo Chailly version. It looks like this:



I think that cover is dreadful.

Chailly's _Carmina Burana_ was originally released in 1984, and that ghastly cover was for the 1994 re-release (the one I bought).

I much prefer the original:



That's more like it.


----------



## Albert7

Really interested in that Chailly recording of it... however, that reissue version seems to have a hideous cover LOL. A primitive maiden does not make a cover apparently.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

albertfallickwang said:


> Really interested in that Chailly recording of it... however, that reissue version seems to have a hideous cover LOL. A primitive maiden does not make a cover apparently.


For me, she's not a primitive maiden at all. I see her as the lead singer of a rock band, posing on stage for her adoring audience.


----------



## starthrower

According to the reviews at Amazon, I own the world's worst recording of Carmina Burana. And that's sound quality wise. It's the Laserlight CD. I bet the Shaw Telarc recording sounds good.


----------



## ptr

Anyone heard the new CB conducted by Jos van Immerseel on Zig-Zag Territoires ??

/ptr


----------



## Guest

Riccardo Muti on EMI,a first class performance.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

starthrower said:


> According to the reviews at Amazon, I own the world's worst recording of Carmina Burana. And that's sound quality wise. It's the Laserlight CD. ...


I wouldn't mind hearing the Laserlight version. (I wonder if I can find it cheap on eBay...)



starthrower said:


> ... I bet the Shaw Telarc recording sounds good.


It sounds fabulous, but I'm not terribly keen on the performance. Telarc has another recording of _Carmina Burana_ that I think is vastly superior. It's by the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra & Chorus, conducted by Donald Runnicles:



I mentioned it in this thread a few posts ago (post #39).


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

I, too, first listened to _Carmina Burana_ on MTTs Cleveland LP recording. Still enjoy the rendition (when exposed to it). However, thumbs-up to the two mentions of the *Ormandy-Philadelphia* recording on page 2 of this thread. That disc is my go-to recording.

Before I move on, let me add a positive mention for the Slatkin-St Louis CD.


----------



## Nereffid

ptr said:


> Anyone heard the new CB conducted by Jos van Immerseel on Zig-Zag Territoires ??
> 
> /ptr


I like it, it strikes me as a very fresh and airy performance, but with enough power when needed. It had been ages since I heard Carmina and I keep forgetting to do a comparison with the Jochum, so I've no comment to make on where it might conceivably stand in any hierarchy of recordings. But in its own right, it's very good I think.


----------



## Albert7

Procured a copy of Chailly's version of this piece so looking forward to adding this to my listening rotation pretty soon.


----------



## starthrower

PeterPowerPop said:


> I wouldn't mind hearing the Laserlight version. (I wonder if I can find it cheap on eBay...)


Take your pick from a half dozen copies for one penny.
http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-...id=1417970725&sr=1-44&keywords=carmina+burana


----------



## Wood

I have the early Jochum in 10" format, the covers having nicely stitched sleeves:










And Ray Manzarek's version too.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I, too, first listened to _Carmina Burana_ on MTTs Cleveland LP recording. Still enjoy the rendition (when exposed to it). However, thumbs-up to the two mentions of the *Ormandy-Philadelphia* recording on page 2 of this thread. That disc is my go-to recording.


Ormandy's was the very first _Carmina Burana_ I bought.



Even after hearing plenty of other versions, it's still one I like very much.



Chi_townPhilly said:


> Before I move on, let me add a positive mention for the Slatkin-St Louis CD.


(_Note to self:_ Buy the Slatkin version.)


----------



## PeterPowerPop

ptr said:


> Anyone heard the new CB conducted by Jos van Immerseel on Zig-Zag Territoires ??
> 
> /ptr


You can hear all of Immerseel's _Carmina Burana_ on Spotify:

https://play.spotify.com/user/1213156565/playlist/7jPPytvNhMiZ9uWMYSrmxF

[Album details at Outhere Music]


----------



## PeterPowerPop

starthrower said:


> According to the reviews at Amazon, I own the world's worst recording of Carmina Burana. And that's sound quality wise. It's the Laserlight CD. I bet the Shaw Telarc recording sounds good.





starthrower said:


> Take your pick from a half dozen copies for one penny.
> http://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-...id=1417970725&sr=1-44&keywords=carmina+burana




I'm listening to samples at Amazon.com, and my ears are telling me that, performance and sound-wise, it's not what I'd call great.

Now, I don't want to disparage the people involved or the work that went into making the album, but it is one of the less-inspired versions I've heard.

In the interests of completeness, I will buy it sometime. I won't be buying it at Amazon.com though. Shipping to here in Australia is way too expensive (try $15). Amazon.co.uk is much cheaper for me (with shipping, the total is $7). But eBay is the cheapest. I can get a copy for about $5 - which I will.

Actually, it looks like the Urbanek version might not be the worst. _Classics Today_ gave a huge thumbs-down to the one by Daniel Harding:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15621/

I won't be seeking that one out in a hurry.


----------



## Albert7

Ooooo how is Patricia Petibon on that DG recording? Would like to check out more of her stuff honestly.


----------



## Declined

I went with Blomstedt. I was not disappointed.


----------



## starthrower

How is the Slatkin version with Sylvia McNair? My library has that one. I had it in my hands earlier today, but I was at my limit borrowing too many CDs. I've been listening to her on one of Gluck's operas, and I really like it.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

albertfallickwang said:


> Ooooo how is Patricia Petibon on that DG recording? Would like to check out more of her stuff honestly.


I've only ever heard Patricia Petibon in Rameau. (Examples here and here.) I'd be interested to hear her in _Carmina Burana_.










I'm pleased to say the Daniel Harding _Carmina Burana_ (with Patricia Petibon) is on Spotify in its entirety:


https://play.spotify.com/album/453UbSeoWXMTWn5bnrmmKV

Here's one of Patricia's _Carmina_ solos:


https://play.spotify.com/track/1raBcZGiI9kaPrKNPNpKzx

I think that's fine (although she runs the risk of drowning out the orchestra, considering how quietly they're playing).


----------



## PeterPowerPop

starthrower said:


> How is the Slatkin version with Sylvia McNair? My library has that one. I had it in my hands earlier today, but I was at my limit borrowing too many CDs. I've been listening to her on one of Gluck's operas, and I really like it.


You may want to go back to the library, starthrower...

Slatkin's _Carmina Burana_ on Spotify:

https://play.spotify.com/album/7vMxSCJbhTo4t5sikwbln4



Selected tracks:


----------



## PeterPowerPop

starthrower said:


> How is the Slatkin version with Sylvia McNair? My library has that one. I had it in my hands earlier today, but I was at my limit borrowing too many CDs. I've been listening to her on one of Gluck's operas, and I really like it.




And more...


----------



## techniquest

I recently bought this one and it has leaped straight to the top of the list. A superb recording!


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> I recently bought this one and it has leaped straight to the top of the list. A superb recording!
> 
> View attachment 58130


That was one of the _Carmina Burana_s I bought in my last _Carmina Burana_ CD-buying frenzy.

I'm looking forward to hearing it (along with the other _Carmina Burana_ CDs that haven't arrived yet).

Incidentally, it's on Spotify:


*Orff: Carmina Burana (Welser-Möst)*


----------



## techniquest

That Slatkin recording has been hit with the curse of the silent tam-tam in the 'O Fortuna' section; something that certainly can't be said of the Welser-Most (or indeed the Marin Alsop recording on Naxos).


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> That Slatkin recording has been hit with the curse of the silent tam-tam in the 'O Fortuna' section; something that certainly can't be said of the Welser-Most (or indeed the Marin Alsop recording on Naxos).


Be that as it may (and it may be that), I'm still keen on gettin' it. I'm buying _Carmina Burana_s left, right, and centre - and Slatkin's will be another one.

Oh, and thanks for reminding me that I haven't bought Marin Alsop's version either. One more!


----------



## techniquest

Have you got this one? It's an elderly live recording from the '50's, but well worth a listen especially if you're in completist mode


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> Have you got this one? It's an elderly live recording from the '50's, but well worth a listen especially if you're in completist mode
> View attachment 58246


Nope. I don't have that particular one by Jochum.

The one I have is the ubiquitous "top recommendation by everyone" 1968 version in the _DG Originals_ reissue (1996):


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> Have you got this one? It's an elderly live recording from the '50's, but well worth a listen especially if you're in completist mode
> View attachment 58246


I've done a little investigating, and discovered the version you recommend is a double-CD of Orff's _Trionfi_ (i.e., _Carmina Burana_, _Catulli Carmina_, and _Trionfo di Afrodite_). They were recorded in 1953 (_Carmina Burana_), 1954/1956 (_Catulli Carmina_), and 1956 (_Trionfo di Afrodite_).

Unfortunately for me, they're all in mono. Because I'm a bit of a monophobe, I'm in no hurry to get that CD. No hurry at all.










Alternate cover:



















Details at Amazon.com


----------



## PeterPowerPop

starthrower said:


> According to the reviews at Amazon, I own the world's worst recording of Carmina Burana. And that's sound quality wise. It's the Laserlight CD.


Bought it.



(Amazon.com)


----------



## PeterPowerPop

Chi_townPhilly said:


> ... let me add a positive mention for the Slatkin-St Louis CD.





PeterPowerPop said:


> (_Note to self:_ Buy the Slatkin version.)


Bought it.

(I bought the 2011 reissue below. The cover above, featuring what appears to be a very tired lady in a hoodie leaning against a wall, is of the original 1994 release.)


----------



## PeterPowerPop

And they just keep a-comin'...

I bought nine more.

These are all the _Carmina Burana_s I've bought so far:


*Blomstedt*
*Chailly*
*Cooke*
*Doráti*
*Frühbeck De Burgos*
*Handford*
*Heltay* (no information yet)
*Hickox*
*Hill*
*Jochum*
*Kielmann*
*Mata*
*Mehta*
*Muti*
*Ormandy*
*Pople*
*Prestel*
*Rattle*
*Slatkin*
*Stokowski*
*Thielemann*
*Tilson Thomas*
*Urbanek*
*Welser-Möst*
And I have absolutely no intention of stopping.


----------



## techniquest

> I've done a little investigating, and discovered the version you recommend is a double-CD of Orff's Trionfi (i.e., Carmina Burana, Catulli Carmina, and Trionfo di Afrodite). They were recorded in 1953 (Carmina Burana), 1954/1956 (Catulli Carmina), and 1956 (Trionfo di Afrodite).
> 
> Unfortunately for me, they're all in mono. Because I'm a bit of a monophobe, I'm in no hurry to get that CD. No hurry at all.


Oh well, I try my best... :lol:

I don't see either the Ozawa / Boston or the Alsop / Bournemouth recordings in your 'bought so far' list yet. By the way, how is that Laserlight recording? Is it as awful as it's made out to be? I ask because I rather like seeking out and listening to obscure ultra-cheap recordings of works I like: I have a 'Rite of Spring' on Laserlight with Dobrin Petkov conducting the Plovdiv Philharmonic - great fun!


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> Oh well, I try my best... :lol:


Thanks for trying.



techniquest said:


> I don't see either the Ozawa / Boston or the Alsop / Bournemouth recordings in your 'bought so far' list yet. ...


I'm not a fan of the Ozawa/Boston version. (The playing's a bit sloppy, and the slow movements are too slow for my liking.) I have it on good authority that Ozawa's later Berlin remake is much better. I do intend to buy both Ozawas, but they're both low on the list of _Carmina Burana_ priorities.

As for the Alsop/Bournemouth version, I want to buy that as well, but it's also fairly low on the list of "gotta have"s.



techniquest said:


> ...By the way, how is that Laserlight recording? Is it as awful as it's made out to be? ...


It hasn't arrived yet. Because I live in Australia, and the CDs I buy are almost always in places that aren't Australia, it can take up to three weeks for a CD to get here.

I'm looking forward to hear how good/bad/meh that Laserlight recording is.



techniquest said:


> ...I ask because I rather like seeking out and listening to obscure ultra-cheap recordings of works I like: I have a 'Rite of Spring' on Laserlight with Dobrin Petkov conducting the Plovdiv Philharmonic - great fun!


Excellent. I like finding cheap-cheap-cheap versions of music too. Of the Carmina Buranas I have at the moment, two were ultra-cheap - and unfortunately, they sound it. Fairly lacklustre playing, and very lacklustre recording, afflicts both of them. These are the two, and I recommend avoiding 'em:


*Salzburger Mozarteum Chor und Orchestra / Kurt Prestel*

*Soloists and Chorus of the Radio Orchestra of the German Democratic Republic / Heinrich Kielmann*

These are the covers for them, as a warning in case you come across either CD and think "Hey, this looks alright..."



















Incidentally, that German Democratic Republic recording is on a 2-CD set (the second CD has Janacek's Sinfonietta and Stravinsky's Firebird Suite), and it only cost $4. I'm fine with that. (The Prestel disc was $4 as well.)

Oh yeah, one more thing about those not-so-great recordings:

Of all the Carmina Burana CDs, those two were the only ones that had weird tracking. By "tracking", I mean track numbers. Both CDs have all the movements listed on the back covers, but the Prestel disc is divided into seven tracks (one for each section of the whole work). The Kielmann disc, in the most bizarre display of tracking I've ever seen, is inexplicably divided into four tracks. And there doesn't seem to be any reason for where the tracking occurs - track 1 is _Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi_ (i.e., the first two tracks on any other _Carmina Burana_ CD); track 2 ends halfway through _Primo vere_; track 3 finishes Primo vere; and track 4 is _In Taberna_ onwards.

I ended up editing the audio files in an audio-editing program to split the tracks correctly. They're now on my computer's hard drive with the correct track numbers. And all this for the two worst _Carmina Burana_s I have. But at least I have them both correctly tracked now.

So I'm afraid those two discs can be classified as cheap 'n' nasty. (I was hoping for cheap 'n' cheerful, but that's just the way it goes sometimes.)

Nevertheless, if you want to know more about either of those dud recordings, send me a PM.


----------



## Badinerie

Erm...I have a bit of a thing for Patricia Petibon...I may be investigating that CB! 
Reviewers Pshaww! what do they know.


----------



## techniquest

> Salzburger Mozarteum Chor und Orchestra / Kurt Prestel...
> ...These are the covers for them, as a warning in case you come across either CD and think "Hey, this looks alright..."


That recording is also on the cheap Zyx label and looks like this:


----------



## PeterPowerPop

techniquest said:


> That recording is also on the cheap Zyx label and looks like this:


There are plenty of Kurt Prestel/Salzburger Mozarteum _Carmina Burana_ CDs in circulation, with different covers galore.

A quick search on Amazon.com for "carmina burana prestel" yields a bewildering amount of results. (Try "carmina burana mozarteum" and you'll end up with even more.)


----------



## PeterPowerPop

PeterPowerPop said:


> And they just keep a-comin'...
> 
> I bought nine more.
> 
> These are all the _Carmina Burana_s I've bought so far:
> 
> 
> *Blomstedt*
> *Chailly*
> *Cooke*
> *Doráti*
> *Frühbeck De Burgos*
> *Handford*
> *Heltay* (no information yet)
> *Hickox*
> *Hill*
> *Jochum*
> *Kielmann*
> *Mata*
> *Mehta*
> *Muti*
> *Ormandy*
> *Pople*
> *Prestel*
> *Rattle*
> *Slatkin*
> *Stokowski*
> *Thielemann*
> *Tilson Thomas*
> *Urbanek*
> *Welser-Möst*


And one more:


*Sawallisch*



















I almost didn't get this one because it's mono (I'm a monophobe), but Lawrence Rapchak's review on Amazon.com was so enthusiastic that I thought, "That sounds well worth getting".

So I got it.


----------



## PeterPowerPop

*Kurt Prestel's Carmina Burana*

For anyone wondering just how bad the Kurt Prestel/Salzburger Mozarteum version of _Carmina Burana_ is, here's the opening "O Fortuna":






I'd definitely put that in the "not great" category.

Incidentally, after the orchestra choir play the opening bars there's a pause at 0:07. In that pause I imagined everybody involved thought to themselves, "Shall we keep playing like this?" - to which Kurt Prestel responded telepathically, "I'm afraid so."


----------



## PeterPowerPop

PeterPowerPop said:


> *Blomstedt*
> *Chailly*
> *Cooke*
> *Doráti*
> *Frühbeck De Burgos*
> *Handford*
> *Heltay* (no information yet)
> *Hickox*
> *Hill*
> *Jochum*
> *Kielmann*
> *Mata*
> *Mehta*
> *Muti*
> *Ormandy*
> *Pople*
> *Prestel*
> *Rattle*
> *Slatkin*
> *Stokowski*
> *Thielemann*
> *Tilson Thomas*
> *Urbanek*
> *Welser-Möst*
> *Sawallisch*


Because I can't stop buying them, here's the latest one:


*Eichhorn*










Incidentally, Eichhorn's 1973 recording was used for the 1975 _Carmina Burana_ film (which was released on DVD in 2002). It's on YouTube:


----------



## doors1991

These two versions are the same ?

https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Carl/dp/B000001GQP#customerReviews

https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Eugen-Jochum/dp/B00004UGIR


----------



## PeterPowerPop

*Carmina Burana - Jochum*



doors1991 said:


> These two versions are the same ?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Carl/dp/B000001GQP
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Eugen-Jochum/dp/B00004UGIR


They're the same recording.

This is the remastered version:


----------



## vincula

My favourite is Kegel's:









Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Rogerx

Amazing sound


Fun watching


----------



## flamencosketches

PeterPowerPop said:


> There are plenty of Kurt Prestel/Salzburger Mozarteum _Carmina Burana_ CDs in circulation, with different covers galore.
> 
> A quick search on Amazon.com for "carmina burana prestel" yields a bewildering amount of results. (Try "carmina burana mozarteum" and you'll end up with even more.)


Why on earth has this been released so many times :lol:


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Why on earth has this been released so many times :lol:


It was one of Alfred Sholtz's dodgy European recordings that have been doing the rounds on the budget labels for years. All these recordings have been sold on numerous times over the years. Expect to see them pop up again on other budget labels for some years to come.


----------



## flamencosketches

Merl said:


> It was one of Alfred Sholtz's dodgy European recordings that have been doing the rounds on the budget labels for years. All these recordings have been sold on numerous times over the years. Expect to see them pop up again on other budget labels for some years to come.


Is there any money in this game? Who is buying these ultra-budget classical discs, in the age of Naxos and Brilliant, etc...?


----------



## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> Why on earth has this been released so many times :lol:


It's used in a lot of movies, ( the intro that is ) so people want to buy it and as by wonder the reissue the CD.
I bet you half of them don't like the rest though.


----------



## millionrainbows

Declined said:


> In preparation to see the Florida Orchestra perform Carmina Burana, I'd like to familiarize myself with the work. I'm looking for something that has good sound quality and is rather energetic and exciting. I'm considering Robert Shaw with the Atlantic Symphonic Orchestra or Blomstedt with the San Fransisco Symphony. Any other recommendations that would fit what I want? Thanks.


I went with the Blomstedt/San Francisco issue.


----------



## Merl

flamencosketches said:


> Is there any money in this game? Who is buying these ultra-budget classical discs, in the age of Naxos and Brilliant, etc...?


There's always money in a product you paid virtually nothing for. These recordings have changed hands so many times over the years and rarely appear repackaged on CD these days but one glance at the streaming services will reveal that they are all available online. Just type in Alfred Schotlz / Albert Lizzio in Spotify for example and you'll see a pile of these dodgy recordings. For further reading look at the page below.

https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Budget_recordings_of_Alfred_Scholz


----------



## millionrainbows

doors1991 said:


> These two versions are the same ?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Carl/dp/B000001GQP#customerReviews
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Eugen-Jochum/dp/B00004UGIR


I like the cover of the earlier one. It looks like one of Picasso's linocut prints.


----------



## Enthusiast

Strange that some threads recently have had pages and pages about whether or not Furtwangler and/or Karajan was a Nazi but there is no mention in this thread about the difficult reputation of Orff and, in particular, this piece. For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form. It seems to me even worse that a composer might have signed up to Hitler's ideology than that a performer might have done.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Enthusiast said:


> Strange that some threads recently have had pages and pages about whether or not Furtwangler and/or Karajan was a Nazi but there is no mention in this thread about the difficult reputation of Orff and, in particular, this piece. For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form. It seems to me even worse that a composer might have signed up to Hitler's ideology than that a performer might have done.


Do you think that in terms of the music or the text? Or both? I've always thought of it as an innocent, bawdy, lighthearted imitation of medieval troubadour life, but I'd be interested to hear your interpretation!


----------



## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> *Strange that some threads recently have had pages and pages about whether or not Furtwangler and/or Karajan was a Nazi but there is no mention in this thread about the difficult reputation of Orff and, in particular, this piece.* For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form. It seems to me even worse that a composer might have signed up to Hitler's ideology than that a performer might have done.


I think it's great there isn't! Too often this comes up in discussions about some composer's music, keeping people from actually discussing the music and going down the rabbit hole discussing the political or philosophical issues connected with the piece which might or might not actually be there. I'm not so well acquainted with Orff to say anything definite but I just read through _Carmina Burana_'s text and while lots of things could be read into it, I don't think there was anything which would make me call it "Nazism in musical form". What makes you think it conveys Nazi ideology?

In fact, _Carmina Burana_ was met with criticism after its premiere performance. A Nazi musicologist, Hans Gerigk, supposedly noted that it suffered from a 'mistaken return to primitive elements of instrumentalism and a foreign emphasis on rhythmic formulae'. Also, Orff's use of ancient Goliardic poetry as poetry which mocks authority and his insistence on using archaic languages he knew might incite Nazi censure have been seen to communicate anti-Nazi sympathies. His grandmother was of Jewish descent after all.


----------



## Merl

I've always seen Carmina as a set of bawdy drinking songs about the unpredictability of fortune and celebrating the pleasures of lust, drinking, and gluttony. Maybe that's a simplistic view but it sums it up quickly. It was never meant as an ode to Nazism, from what I've read.


----------



## vincula

It's just a bunch of Goliard songs celebrating life!

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## wkasimer

Enthusiast said:


> For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form.


Please expand on this thought. I'm interested in what constitutes "Nazism in musical form" so that perhaps I can recognize it in the future.


----------



## DavidA

Enthusiast said:


> Strange that some threads recently have had pages and pages about whether or not Furtwangler and/or Karajan was a Nazi but there is no mention in this thread about *the difficult reputation of Orff *and, in particular, this piece. For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form. It seems to me even worse that a composer might have signed up to Hitler's ideology than that a performer might have done.


 Like that of Paul Hindemith and Ernst Krenek, Orff's music was often categorised as 'degenerate' by the Nazis. But the artist's attempts to ingratiate himself with the regime paid dividends. By the early 1940s, his music was celebrated by many Nazi elites, and his Carmina Burana was one of the most popular pieces in Nazi Germany. Yet, later on, by means of a misleading representation of his own 'resistance activities' - a fabricated account of his involvement with the White Rose movement - during the Nazi years, and by judiciously emphasising negative Nazi opinions of his music, he managed to s ecure a clean slate to perform and work in post-war Germany, untainted by his accommodationism throughout the Hitler years.


----------



## mahlernerd

I happen to really like the recording with Charles Mackerras and the Bournemouth Symphony orchestra.

https://www.amazon.com/Orff-Carmina-Burana-Holst-Planets/dp/B00MD5XWGO


----------



## DavidA

If we want to be authentic then the Jochum was recorded with the composer present.


----------



## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> Why on earth has this been released so many times :lol:


Discogs has 70 releases of it!


----------



## adriesba

DavidA said:


> If we want to be authentic then the Jochum was recorded with the composer present.


I don't know for sure, but this one might have been as well. It says "Authorized Carl Orff" on it. The movie version this is used in I think was supervised by Orff.

View attachment 140482


----------



## Enthusiast

annaw said:


> I think it's great there isn't! Too often this comes up in discussions about some composer's music, keeping people from actually discussing the music and going down the rabbit hole discussing the political or philosophical issues connected with the piece which might or might not actually be there. I'm not so well acquainted with Orff to say anything definite but I just read through _Carmina Burana_'s text and while lots of things could be read into it, I don't think there was anything which would make me call it "Nazism in musical form". What makes you think it conveys Nazi ideology?
> 
> In fact, _Carmina Burana_ was met with criticism after its premiere performance. A Nazi musicologist, Hans Gerigk, supposedly noted that it suffered from a 'mistaken return to primitive elements of instrumentalism and a foreign emphasis on rhythmic formulae'. Also, Orff's use of ancient Goliardic poetry as poetry which mocks authority and his insistence on using archaic languages he knew might incite Nazi censure have been seen to communicate anti-Nazi sympathies. His grandmother was of Jewish descent after all.


It might matter is the Nazism is somehow in the music and there are certainly parts of Carmina that I find hard to dissociate from Nazism (I say this with memories from the 1970s of resisting racists in the streets of London). And your history is correct but partial. Gerigk did pan the piece but it went on to become very popular with the party, which was (after all) basically a bunch of thugs. Orff's possibly being a quarter Jewish was not widely known and he went out of his way to court the party so the suggestion that he went out of his way to incite the Nazis is just not true.

Does all this matter to me? Because I hear crudeness in the music and because I have come to associate it with base feelings - yes, it does. He is not a composer and this is not a work that I have any time for at all. And I barely understand how people can think otherwise!


----------



## Enthusiast

DavidA said:


> Like that of Paul Hindemith and Ernst Krenek, Orff's music was often categorised as 'degenerate' by the Nazis. But the artist's attempts to ingratiate himself with the regime paid dividends. By the early 1940s, his music was celebrated by many Nazi elites, and his Carmina Burana was one of the most popular pieces in Nazi Germany. Yet, later on, by means of a misleading representation of his own 'resistance activities' - a fabricated account of his involvement with the White Rose movement - during the Nazi years, and by judiciously emphasising negative Nazi opinions of his music, he managed to s ecure a clean slate to perform and work in post-war Germany, untainted by his accommodationism throughout the Hitler years.


Yes, that is all correct. Before the Nazis became all-powerful they despised those composers. Hindemith is said to have tried to court Nazi favour but totally failed. Orff, on the other hand, did not fail and won favour. He then, post-war, cleaned his reputation by misleadingly representing his war time behaviour.


----------



## Enthusiast

wkasimer said:


> Please expand on this thought. I'm interested in what constitutes "Nazism in musical form" so that perhaps I can recognize it in the future.


It is perhaps an association but the Nazis were basically thugs so think of music that you might expect would appeal to thugs.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

^I see your point - the music is intentionally base, primitive, ruthless, etc. etc. However, don't you think that this is just a way to imitate the bawdy simplicity of medieval life? The Carmina Burana text is just a collection of irreverent poems extolling the pleasures of life. If I think hard about what, say, _O Fortuna_ might mean on a deeper level, then yes the implications are certainly uncomfortable. And I'm not saying that Orff was innocent or that Nazism didn't creep its way into his music. But I personally think that your interpretation may be reading a bit too much into the music that isn't there? I definitely respect your ideas, but thanks for ruining my (already infrequent) enjoyment of _Carmina Burana_ from now on


----------



## Enthusiast

^ Just seen this. Sorry to ruin your enjoyment of the piece but perhaps you will be better off that way!



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Do you think that in terms of the music or the text? Or both? I've always thought of it as an innocent, bawdy, lighthearted imitation of medieval troubadour life, but I'd be interested to hear your interpretation!


The trouble with negative views on music - including my view on this piece - is that it is not very well informed by experience because we don't spend much time listening to music we hate. But, yes, I think of it as thuggish music!

My main reason for posting this, though, was surprise that his dark past wasn't getting mentioned when a far more nuanced concern about Furtwangler and Karajan often stimulates pages of argument. I wondered whether we judge composers by a different yardstick to performers.


----------



## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> It might matter is the Nazism is somehow in the music and there are certainly parts of Carmina that I find hard to dissociate from Nazism (I say this with memories from the 1970s of resisting racists in the streets of London). And your history is correct but partial. Gerigk did pan the piece but it went on to become very popular with the party, which was (after all) basically a bunch of thugs. Orff's possibly being a quarter Jewish was not widely known and he went out of his way to court the party so the suggestion that he went out of his way to incite the Nazis is just not true.
> 
> Does all this matter to me? Because I hear crudeness in the music and because I have come to associate it with base feelings - yes, it does. He is not a composer and this is not a work that I have any time for at all. And I barely understand how people can think otherwise!


Thanks for the elaboration! I can see your situation and I know the different views might at least partly be the result of our different experiences. I have given Orff's music almost heretically little attention and while I certainly do not wish to leave it that way, I feel somewhat incompetent arguing about the qualities, specifically the crudeness you refer to, in his music. However, I'm not entirely sure whether personal experiences and associations should be the basis of saying that a piece carries some ideological message in general (in contrast to personal) sense. The forcefulness of _O Fortuna!_ might be associated with very different ideologies for different people, but we still rarely know whether such associations are legitimate or not. The ability of music to speak on very personal level is a marvellous and interesting phenomena though.


----------



## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> My main reason for posting this, though, was surprise that his dark past wasn't getting mentioned when a far more nuanced concern about Furtwangler and Karajan often stimulates pages of argument. *I wondered whether we judge composers by a different yardstick to performers.*


You know, there's this one guy, a composer, whose surname starts with "W" - he has a yardstick of his own .


----------



## wkasimer

Enthusiast said:


> It is perhaps an association but the Nazis were basically thugs so think of music that you might expect would appeal to thugs.


So the Nazism isn't actually in the music - it's a product of your feelings. Got it.


----------



## adriesba

Allegro Con Brio said:


> the music is intentionally base, primitive, ruthless, etc. etc. However, don't you think that this is just a way to imitate the bawdy simplicity of medieval life?


But much of Orff's music was like that. Wasn't that just his style? Ever hear _De temporum fine comoedia_? That was composed after WWII and is way more crude and primitive sounding than _Carmina Burana_.


----------



## Enthusiast

annaw said:


> You know, there's this one guy, a composer, whose surname starts with "W" - he has a yardstick of his own .


But Walton was a lovely man!


----------



## Enthusiast

wkasimer said:


> So the Nazism isn't actually in the music - it's a product of your feelings. Got it.


Isn't that normally the case with what we hear in music even when it has a programme to tell us what it is supposed to be about?


----------



## annaw

Enthusiast said:


> But Walton was a lovely man!


You got it :lol: !


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

adriesba said:


> But much of Orff's music was like that. Wasn't that just his style? Ever hear _De temporum fine comoedia_? That was composed after WWII and is way more crude and primitive sounding than _Carmina Burana_.


I admittedly haven't heard anything else from Orff, since I gather that his music isn't exactly highly regarded among listeners and critics. But it would certainly be interesting to hear.


----------



## wkasimer

Enthusiast said:


> Isn't that normally the case with what we hear in music even when it has a programme to tell us what it is supposed to be about?


That's rather different from "For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form."


----------



## adriesba

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I admittedly haven't heard anything else from Orff, since I gather that his music isn't exactly highly regarded among listeners and critics. But it would certainly be interesting to hear.


I haven't heard much of Orff besides _Carmina Burana_ or _De temporum fine comoedia_. But to me, dismissal of his music is mostly haughtiness. And I'd listen to the opinions of one listener before I listen to ten critics.


----------



## Enthusiast

wkasimer said:


> That's rather different from "For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form."


Ah. I see where you are coming from. I originally wrote



> mention in this thread about the difficult reputation of Orff and, in particular, this piece. *For many parts, at least, of Carmina Burana are Nazism in musical form. *


and I may have punctuated or worded it poorly. What I meant was that *many people *hear Nazism in parts of it - not that I hear Nazism in *many parts *of it.

As you have seen from my various replies I am not quite with those who think this but lean towards their view. It is not a work I like (Nazism or no) so my knowledge and experience of it are not enough to come up with a definitive position on his political intent.


----------

