# Schoenberg's Violin Concerto... What do you think?



## Guest

I recently heard Hahn's performance of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto. I found it strange. Although, since i am new to genre, i lack the knowledge and skill to judge. I was wondering what others thought of this work?


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## Mahlerian

Well, it's _strange_, that's true, but it has a kind of alienated beauty to it. There are so many bizarre and wonderful moments throughout the whole thing, which would be a virtuoso showpiece if there were more violinists who were willing to add it to their repertoire. Examples off the top of my head: all those pizzicato/arco combinations the soloist has to pull off, the accompanied return of the theme in its original form in the slow movement, and last but not least, that stunningly weird duet for violin and snare drum in the finale.

Hahn's performance is one of the few that can really meet the concerto's rigorous demands, but of course in the future there will be more who can.


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## Manxfeeder

It took me a while to get used to, but one day finally it clicked. Personally, I think Hilary Hahn has done a great service to the piece.


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## elgar's ghost

I haven't heard it for ages - is it the one that has the orchestra crashing back in near the end after a largely unaccompanied solo?


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## ptr

I don't think any of Schönberg's music is something one get/understands during first contact! I think You need to emerge Yourself slowly in to it's sounding structures and eventually, when you have mustered the experience it takes she will reveal her self to You like the Rafflesia, it may be the smelliest things Your ears have ever heard, but it still have an eternal beauty!









Rafflesia flower!

/ptr


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## millionrainbows

According to WIK,


> the piece was written in 1936, the same year as the String Quartet No. 4.
> 
> Although the Violin Concerto uses twelve-tone technique, its neoclassical form demanded a mimesis of tonal melody (mimesis = imitation, allusion), and hence a renunciation of the motivic technique used in his earlier work in favour of a thematic structure.
> 
> While the row is not necessary for understanding any good twelve-note piece, an awareness of it in _this concerto_ is useful because the row is very much in the foreground, and is quite obviously* abstracted* from Schoenberg's concrete melodic-thematic thinking.


 In other words, he is "imitating" tonality, by "memesis" of tonal melody and themes.

The row is: A-B♭-E♭-B-E-F♯-C-C♯-G-A♭-D-F

In playing the row on my piano, I am struck by the melodic implications, and the use of fourths, fifths (inversional counterparts of each other), and tritones, with their 3/7 dominant implications. For example, A-Bb-Eb is a fourth with a b5 'leading tone.' Then another fourth, B-E; then an implied 'melodic' fourth, F#/C#, with 'leading tone' C: F#-C-C#. Then a fifth, G/D with an implied #9, G-Ab-D.

Thus, it is interesting to observe how Schoenberg strives with this row set-up to create "allusions" to tonality, although in reality, this music is atonal, and the row-order is the determining factor. The music is atonal, and the bizarre, if not downright ugly "themes" have already been acknowledged as such.


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## Stefan

I might also add, that it helps if a person likes atonal music to begin with. Also, speaking for myself, conversion to an atonal aesthetic happened rather suddenly and unexpectedly.


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## Ondine

I think is an excellent oeuvre. At moments it has quite the zest of Schostakovich's string quartets. I have it with Zvi Zeitlin at the violin with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Rafael Kubelik.


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## millionrainbows

I just accept atonal music as it is. It is not always a simple matter of "liking" it, because, as in this Violin Concerto, the "themes" are so bizarre and unsettling. In the end, my overall impression is of being overwhelmed by some huge force, like being in a tornado. A feeling of massive edifices, massive power, almost scary. The true meaning of "awe."


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## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> I just accept atonal music as it is. It is not always a simple matter of "liking" it, because, as in this Violin Concerto, the "themes" are so bizarre and unsettling. In the end, my overall impression is of being overwhelmed by some huge force, like being in a tornado. A feeling of massive edifices, massive power, almost scary. The true meaning of "awe."


Why put theme in scare quotes? A theme is a theme. I don't find the music unsettling, like, say, Erwartung, which is an expression of alienation and horror throughout. A lot of Schoenberg's later music is filled with a warped kind of Viennese gemutlichkeit (charm is the simplest explanation, I suppose, but it's more than that).


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## Kleinzeit

GIS for 'warped gemutlichkeit'


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## Ondine

Mahlerian said:


> I don't find the music unsettling[...]


Neither me. At least not unsettling. If I am forced to bring into words what is felt I will be facing a big trouble but in an attempt to do so, it is like Jazz. Moments of tension, like a search for something, and then a relief when that something has been found; the moment for a smile and enjoyment.


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## Guest

I love the piece. In Hahn's hands, it's a bit less abrasive than usual. I just wish it had been issued as an SACD. Oh well. Heifetz declared that it had been written for a violinist with six fingers on his left hand!


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> Why put theme in scare quotes? A theme is a theme. I don't find the music unsettling, like, say, Erwartung, which is an expression of alienation and horror throughout. A lot of Schoenberg's later music is filled with a warped kind of Viennese gemutlichkeit (charm is the simplest explanation, I suppose, but it's more than that).


You're obviously skimming-over my posts without reading them carefully.



> ...because the row is very much in the foreground, and is quite obviously *abstracted* from Schoenberg's concrete melodic-thematic thinking.


Also, you have no right to question my impression of this concerto, implying that it's "inaccurate" or misplaced.


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## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> Also, you have no right to question my impression of this concerto, implying that it's "inaccurate" or misplaced.


I only said that my impression was not the same as yours. You seemed to attribute the your "unsettling" feeling to objective qualities in the music itself that cannot help but unsettle one: "I just accept atonal music *as it is*. It is not always a simple matter of "liking" it, because, as in this Violin Concerto, the "themes" *are* so bizarre and unsettling."

I agree with the "bizarre" part of that comment, but not the rest. Now, either you believe that these things are indeed objective qualities of the music, and you think my ears are wrong, unable to accept the music _as it is_, or you didn't say what you mean, which would be that the music unsettles you personally, but this is not a direct result of the music itself.

And given that I'm not the only one who seems to feel this way, you're in disagreement with others as well, so why target me specifically, and not, say, Ondine's comment that followed mine in agreement?


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## PetrB

Mahlerian said:


> Why put theme in scare quotes? A theme is a theme. I don't find the music unsettling, like, say, Erwartung, which is an expression of alienation and horror throughout. A lot of Schoenberg's later music is filled with a warped kind of Viennese gemutlichkeit (charm is the simplest explanation, I suppose, but it's more than that).


The more than that is the expressionist aspect which almost never left Schoenberg entirely.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> And given that I'm not the only one who seems to feel this way, you're in disagreement with others as well, so why target me specifically, and not, say, Ondine's comment that followed mine in agreement?


Oh, I'm not the one who is doing the targeting. You are the one who quoted and addressed me, so I have no response to Ondine or anyone else.


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## Mahlerian

PetrB said:


> The more than that is the expressionist aspect which almost never left Schoenberg entirely.


Yes, he continued to favor very wide leaps in melody lines, a deaccented or hidden pulse, augmented/dimished harmonies, and so forth.


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## Novelette

Mahlerian said:


> Hahn's performance is one of the few that can really meet the concerto's rigorous demands, but of course in the future there will be more who can.


I hope it becomes a more frequently performed work. I would love to see it performed live, but alas, around these parts, Schoenberg very seldom shows up on the concert programs.


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## Sid James

karajan said:


> I recently heard Hahn's performance of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto. I found it strange. Although, since i am new to genre, i lack the knowledge and skill to judge. I was wondering what others thought of this work?


Like others here, I found it hard to appreciate at first, but it grew on me. Didn't take too long in the scheme of things to like and enjoy, if that's the word. Its a work that overall has this kind of black and white, monochromatic colour, but the last movement with that prominent percussion as mentioned (and also the crazy dance tune that goes thru that movement) kind of unites the work for me. Sometimes I feel that the violin here is battered by the percussionist (I think its a snare drum?), and leaves the battle kind of battle scarred and wounded. Sometimes the ending makes me feel its on a high as if these challenges have been surmounted, other times I feel kind of gutted and plunged to the depths.

But I'm saying it wasn't easy for me as a listener (none of Schoenberg's music was that I now know and value) but my effort and persistence have been rewarded. & neither was it easy for Hilary Hahn, who says in the notes of that disc that she had to alter her existing violin technique to play it. & of course there's the famous anecdote that Jascha Heifetz, who Schoenberg offered it to, said it was unplayable and could only be played if he grew an extra finger. Arnie, displaying a droll sense of humour, said he'd wait for that to happen! But in the end it was premiered by Louis Krasner, the same violinist who had premiered Berg's concerto.


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## millionrainbows

If Schoenberg was making this a "thematic" concerto, and chose the row to accomplish this, then why does he continually undermine melodic contour? Just a few minutes into the first movement, you can hear the wide leaps, and the super-high notes at the limits of the violin's range.

It seems to me as if he's trying to undermine comprehensible melody with these impossibly wide leaps.

If I hear Mahlerian make any comments about how Schoenberg was really "trying to be tonal" in this concerto, I'll have to un-friend him.:lol:


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## Geo Dude

Karajan, I've only heard it once and feel the same way that you do. That said, I think her reading of the Sibelius is brilliant. It seems that we could both use a bit more work on the Schoenberg; I did notice that Hahn seems to have something of a sweet tone to her violin (at least it's not shrill) in that work which I suspect may have been intended to shave off some of the rough edges. According to reviews she took the same approach with her recording of Ives' violin sonatas.


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## millionrainbows

Mahlerian said:


> I don't find the music unsettling, like, say, Erwartung, which is an expression of alienation and horror throughout. A lot of Schoenberg's later music is filled with a warped kind of Viennese gemutlichkeit (charm is the simplest explanation, I suppose...)


Ha ha! I don't characterize this concerto as "light and breezy!" Warped charm? It's dissonant, angular, and unstable sounding to me.

I'm surprised that "Little Red Riding Hood" didn't get eaten up by the big, bad wolf when she tried to tackle this one.


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## Mahlerian

millionrainbows said:


> It seems to me as if he's trying to undermine comprehensible melody with these impossibly wide leaps.


The widest leap I've ever seen in a single line was in Beethoven's final piano sonata in C minor, where the melody descends to D below the bass clef and leaps from there to a C-flat, nearly _five octaves higher_.

Schoenberg has nothing on that, and I'll bet that most people can hear it as the same melody, not some undermining of the line.



millionrainbows said:


> Ha ha! I don't characterize this concerto as "light and breezy!"


Neither did I, so why the quotes?


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## Vaneyes

If at first you don't succeed, then try Zeitlin/Bavarian RSO/Kubelik (DG, rec. 1972). :tiphat:


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## hpowders

I've been studying the Schoenberg Violin Concerto for a few days now. There is a well-known musical quote played by the solo violin about half-way through the third movement that practically jolted me out of my seat through all that dissonance.

Seems to be Haydn!! 

One great Austrian composer paying tribute to another.


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## EdwardBast

Lots of great little passages throughout, and the finale breathes in longer spans than the rest and strikes me as the best movement by far. If I wanted to get snarky, I would say that a better composer would have found something more interesting to do with such promising material. It is unlikely I am ever going to like this work as a whole. Too fragmentary for my tastes and I find the constant little factor-of-12 chunks distracting — like seams showing everywhere. I like Hahn's performance.


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## hpowders

I like the first two movements. The third movement is a bit more challenging-a lot of time spent on accompanied violin cadenzas.


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## padraic

Well I'm trying this out. What a wild ride!  Good thing I'm a fan of Rock In Opposition...


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## Bill H.

Bringing this thread back to make a little plug for my son's performance as soloist in this amazing work. He played it in February with the Juilliard Orchestra and guest conductor Edward Gardner, after winning the school's Concerto Competition earlier this year, which featured this Concerto. We recently got the concert recording--you can download the FLAC files from this Google Docs link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSVlNZUkdCaXl2M3c

BTW, when he was younger Brian studied some under the late Zvi Zeitlin, and he's been performing other Schoenberg works like the Phantasie since high school.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Bill H. said:


> Bringing this thread back to make a little plug for my son's performance as soloist in this amazing work. He played it in February with the Juilliard Orchestra and guest conductor Edward Gardner, after winning the school's Concerto Competition earlier this year, which featured this Concerto. We recently got the concert recording--you can download the FLAC files from this Google Docs link:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByTWd_3f2RpSVlNZUkdCaXl2M3c
> 
> BTW, when he was younger Brian studied some under the late Zvi Zeitlin, and he's been performing other Schoenberg works like the Phantasie since high school.


Thank you for this wonderful gift, Bill, and I'm really looking forward to hearing this. From an initial sampling of each of the movements, it certainly sounds like a fine performance. Well done, Brian!


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## Heck148

Love it, but i'm still getting to know it...Schoenberg is not easy, but he's one of my favorite composers..


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## Omicron9

It's a beautiful work, as is his Piano Concerto.


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## Janspe

One of my favourite violin concertos for sure. It's so deliciously strange! It's one of those pieces that I would _really_ love to hear live, sitting in the first row with a good view of the soloist.


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## Pugg

One of my least favourite concertos, but then again I am not really a Schoenberg fan.


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## hpowders

I do like the Schoenberg Violin Concerto. Its opening, like that of the Piano Concerto is simply haunting, grabbing the listener's attention immediately-at least, THIS listener....as ESPECIALLY performed by Hilary Hahn....it is a haunting piece throughout....worth the effort for those unfamiliar with it.

Even so, I do feel that Schoenberg's Piano Concerto is the finer work.


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## Blancrocher

hpowders said:


> I do like the Schoenberg Violin Concerto. Its opening, like that of the Piano Concerto is simply haunting, grabbing the listener's attention immediately-at least, THIS listener....as ESPECIALLY performed by Hilary Hahn....


Agreed. Btw, I wish they'd re-release that cd with a different pairing--the performance of the Sibelius violin concerto kind of sucks.


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## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> Agreed. Btw, I wish they'd re-release that cd with a different pairing--the performance of the Sibelius violin concerto kind of sucks.


I agree. It's simply an average performance of the Sibelius and a definite let-down. I never play that part of the CD. She should have done the Berg Concerto instead. A perfect disc "soul-mate".


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## Selby

I believe the piece is highly rewarding. I return to it periodically and always find new pleasure in the experience.


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## Guest

By the way, why is this topic in the Solo/Chamber Music thread?


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## Portamento

Schoenberg's writing for viollin is idiosyncratic at best, but I like it for smoe strange reason. It's a matter of taste - even within the strict boundaries of 12 tone method composers are original. If you do not like shoenberg try berg's violin concerto. I like his better, but my favorite of the 2nd viennese school is Krenek. His piano sonatas are amazing (especially the 7th, written when he was 88 !)


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## Pugg

Kontrapunctus said:


> By the way, why is this topic in the Solo/Chamber Music thread?


Because O.P was a guest in 2013 and someone resurrected it.


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## hpowders

The Schoenberg Violin Concerto?

The Schoenberg Rocks just like those of Bach's


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