# HELDENTENOR TOURNAMENT (Round 1, Match 6): Suthaus vs Remedios



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Ludwig Suthaus, German, 1906-1971






Alberto Remedios, UK, 1935-2016






'Winterstürme' from Wagner's _Die Walküre_.

Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Remedios's vibrato is loose to a degree that is highly undesirable. Someone not quite as exceedingly magnanimous and charitable as I might even accuse him of wobbling.

Suthaus had a powerful and steady voice capable of effortlessly projecting over the orchestra. I actually quite enjoyed he recording and listened to the full 13 minutes. In short, this was another easy choice.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Again out of my comfort zone and knowing little to zero about what to look for, I must, once again, vote for the voice that appeals to me the most. Hands down: Remedios


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Given that I mentioned Remedios to our Master of Ceremonies, I am probably biased but, while I really tried to be objective, Suthaus lost me within the first 45 seconds with his somewhat over-the-top declamatory style. Yes he may have the better heldentenor style voice (Remedios doesn't have the typical baritone-tinged voice), I still found Remedios' version far more enjoyable. Perhaps it is memories of seeing him do Siegfried in a Ring cycle ohh so many years ago!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I prefer a brighter voice for my _heldentenoren_ than Suthaus's, but he has the more suitable voice in this contest and seems very involved dramatically. Remedios's voice is more phonogenic in comparison, but the unsteadiness is off-putting and, ultimately fatal. Both tenors seem to know what they're singing about and that is to the good. Suthaus is my choice.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Remedios for me. I, like Becca, have fond memories of him live in Glasgow in the Ring. His vibrato doesn’t bother me as much as Suthaus’s singing slightly flat does. Nowadays I’d be happy to hear either on stage.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> Given that I mentioned Remedios to our Master of Ceremonies, I am probably biased but, while I really tried to be objective, Suthaus lost me within the first 45 seconds with his somewhat over-the-top declamatory style. Yes he may have the better heldentenor style voice (Remedios doesn't have the typical baritone-tinged voice), I still found Remedios' version far more enjoyable. Perhaps it is memories of seeing him do Siegfried in a Ring cycle ohh so many years ago!


I had the same experience. I imprinted on Suthaus' Siegmund (the one with Furwangler and the VPO), and I've always liked him in the role, but I'm a huge Remedios fan. Suthaus clearly has more voice, but he never relaxes pressure - there's none of the ease that Remedios occasionally brings to the scene.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've always wanted to enjoy Suthaus more than I actually do. The basic sound of his voice is just too obviously the product of a human body; it's an intense, muscular mix of guttural, nasal and lingual, lacking in the sort of ease, headiness and brilliance that would transcend its physical bonds. He's also an artist almost too intense; he always seems to be pushing the musical line and the sounds of words to _do_ something - as wkasimer says, he never relaxes pressure. I can admire his obvious dedication, but I don't like the sound of him. However, I do feel that I'd enjoy him more live in the opera house, much as I feel about Max Lorenz (Suthaus has a good Sieglinde there, btw, and the two of them are certainly into the scene. Pity I don't like him better.)

Remedios is easier to listen to, but do I want to? It isn't just his vibrato that's too relaxed, bordering on wobble at times. It's his whole approach to the aria, which lacks momentum and fervor. Is this the glacial Mr. Goodall conducting? Jacques Urlus gets away with a tempo like this, but then he had a great voice and knew what to do with a musical line. This is dull. If Suthaus chews the scenery, Remedios may as well _be_ the scenery.

To my surprise, I have to choose Suthaus. He knows who the character is, he's vibrantly alive, and he seems to want to earn his pay.

P.S. Remedios is no Heldentenor. I mean, the "helden" part has to mean more than being audible in Wagner and getting through _Siegfried_ without larygitis.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Two quite different versions: Suthaus is snappingly energetic while Remedios is lyrical to the point of laziness - that was never my idea of Siegmund. Slow vibrato as if Remedios consciously modulates his voice in real time, oh boy  Nice timbre but why ruin the effect with that kind of _modulato_?
Suthaus does not sound perfect but he's much preferable to Remedios.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> P.S. Remedios is no Heldentenor. I mean, the "helden" part has to mean more than being audible in Wagner and getting through _Siegfried_ without larygitis.


You are probably right, if the definition of heldentenor requires a big, beefy, barely controlled voice with plenty of stamina and limited musicality (which pretty much describes every Wagnerian tenor since Melchior, with the possible exceptions of Svanholm and Vickers).

But Remedios is still my favorite Siegfried on record, the 1937 Met broadcast aside.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> *You are probably right, if the definition of heldentenor requires a big, beefy, barely controlled voice *with plenty of stamina and limited musicality (which pretty much describes every Wagnerian tenor since Melchior, with the possible exceptions of Svanholm and Vickers).
> 
> But Remedios is still my favorite Siegfried on record, the 1937 Met broadcast aside.


Now, now! I hardly think that Remedios and "a big, beefy, barely controlled voice" are the only options, as you yourself acknowledge by citing Vickers and Svanholm. And what about King, Thomas and Kozub? I do think the word "helden" ought to refer to something - some timbral depth and squillo, at least.

Remedios always sounded to me like an oversized Rodolfo. There have been plenty of tenors with a more heroic sound, many who didn't sing Wagner and were never called heldentenors for that reason (Mario del Monaco, anyone?). The absence of good dramatic tenors today ought not to alter our expectations or our definitions. Lots of good things are absent today!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't know about this particular Remedios version but quite a number of his other videos are with Charles Mackerras


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Now, now! I hardly think that Remedios and "a big, beefy, barely controlled voice" are the only options, as you yourself acknowledge by citing Vickers and Svanholm. And what about King, Thomas and Kozub?


King was legit, I think - but he never sang Tristan, Tannhauser, or Siegfried. I really don't think that you can call yourself a Heldentenor without singing those roles. Ditto for Kozub. Thomas sang them, but based on the recorded evidence, perhaps it wasn't such a hot idea.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> King was legit, I think - but he never sang Tristan, Tannhauser, or Siegfried. I really don't think that you can call yourself a Heldentenor without singing those roles. Ditto for Kozub. Thomas sang them, but based on the recorded evidence, perhaps it wasn't such a hot idea.


So you define heldentenor by a singer's actual repertoire? I guess that's one approach. Mine is to consider what the voice sounds right for, and whether there's anything "heroic" about it. Otherwise we end up with all sorts of inadequate singers being billed as "heldentenors" because they sing certain roles, which is pretty much the situation we have today. Klaus Florian Vogt hasn't tackled Tristan or Siegfried yet, but he's done Tannhauser, Lohengrin and Parsifal. Has anyone called him a heldentenor?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> So you define heldentenor by a singer's actual repertoire? I guess that's one approach. Mine is to consider what the voice sounds right for, and whether there's anything "heroic" about it. Otherwise we end up with all sorts of inadequate singers being billed as "heldentenors" because they sing certain roles, which is pretty much the situation we have today. Klaus Florian Vogt hasn't tackled Tristan or Siegfried yet, but he's done Tannhauser, Lohengrin and Parsifal. Has anyone called him a heldentenor?


I'm fussy about it - for me to call someone a Heldentenor, they have to a) have the right kind of sound and b) sing the roles I mentioned. That eliminates a lot of people, some of whom I really like (Remedios, Heppner) and some I don't (Vogt).

And I should add that the "Heldentenor" designation isn't a value judgement. There are plenty of singers who qualify as Heldentenors who are absolutely dreadful singers.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> King was legit, I think - but he never sang Tristan, Tannhauser, or Siegfried. I really don't think that you can call yourself a Heldentenor without singing those roles. Ditto for Kozub. Thomas sang them, but based on the recorded evidence, perhaps it wasn't such a hot idea.


I agree with this. There's no shame in being a jugendlich, but if one's not singing the aforementioned big 3 as part of your core rep I don't consider that singer a full fledged heldentenor. There are a few singers in the tournament I feel that way about.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

wkasimer said:


> King was legit, I think - but he never sang *Tristan, Tannhauser, or Siegfried*. I really don't think that you can call yourself a Heldentenor without singing those roles. Ditto for Kozub. Thomas sang them, but based on the recorded evidence, perhaps it wasn't such a hot idea.


Günther Treptow might be an example?

I believe there are records of his Tristan, Tannhauser, Siegfried (_Siegfried_ and _Gotterdammerung_) plus Parsifal, Walther von Stolzing, Siegmund, Froh, Rienzi...


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Suthaus, for me.

I'd just repeat that Suthaus is pretty exciting while also noting the curious virtue/can-we-really-call-it-a-vice? that he is_ always _doing something.

I find Remedios a little bit dull. I can understand why every British reviewer for about 20 years made the case "Why would you cast/record Tenor X in Role Y while Remedios was available down the road??" while also noting he doesn't really grab me.

It took me a while to appreciate Suthaus... I sort of think of Suthaus/Furtwangler as somehow akin to the Pertile/Toscanini dynamic.

We have the super-star conductor, we have the articulate and animated tenor... we have the almost hyper-active response to every phrase/word/syllable... not necessarily the most beautiful or glamourous voices but used in a forthright way. 'Subtle' doesn't really cover it but upon inspection they are not careless over detail... they are voices which suggest power without going to the extremes of either over-brightness or darkness... by the end of the operas you can nearly always justify why they were picked.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I didn't much like Suthaus at all and preferred Remedios's more lyrical singing. Yes, he has a vibrato, but I didn't find it that intrusive. 

Iincidentally, not being that big a Wagner fan, particularly when I was younger, I never saw Remedios on stage, so I don't have any attachment to him just because I'm British. I just preferred the sound of his voice and his more legato style.


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