# Music and humanity



## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

I sometimes wonder how society would've looked like without music and I'm unable to imagine it. To me, music is an integral part of civilization, not one of its products. I'll explain.

There's plenty of evidence that music was there when humans began evolving from mere animals to civilized individuals. Whether by vocal tunes or sounds made on primitif instruments, music was there, evolving with the evolution of eras. It is my strong believe that man expressed himself (and still does today in more vulgar ways) through music. Our glory, our weaknesses, our sorrows and anything we feel or think is expressed in music, and always has been.

I know that I'm preaching to the choir when expressing this thought on a music forum, but perhaps some have a different perception of the connection between music and humanity, or even better, a more eloquent way of describing that connection than I.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Gouldanian said:


> I sometimes wonder how society would've looked like without music and I'm unable to imagine it. To me, music is an integral part of civilization, not one of its products. I'll explain.
> 
> There's plenty of evidence that music was there when humans began evolving from mere animals to civilized individuals. Whether by vocal tunes or sounds made on primitif instruments, music was there, evolving with the evolution of eras. It is my strong believe that man expressed himself (and still does today in more vulgar ways) through music. Our glory, our weaknesses, our sorrows and anything we feel or think is expressed in music, and always has been.
> 
> I know that I'm preaching to the choir when expressing this thought on a music forum, but perhaps some have a different perception of the connection between music and humanity, or even better, a more eloquent way of describing that connection than I.


You don't have to imagine. Just ask any of the folks who joined ISIS. Not a society I would ever wish on anybody.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

hpowders said:


> You don't have to imagine. Just ask any of the folks who joined ISIS. Not a society I would ever wish on anybody.


They actually do have their own form of music, mostly vocal, through which they're indeed expressing themselves. But that doesn't make them human under my 21st century definition of "human". In my opinion they're animals. No, animals have empathy, they're savages.

Thus they're a bad example of "how society would've looked like without music". They have music, but what they express through music is despicable.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Gouldanian said:


> They actually do have their own form of music, mostly vocal, through which they're indeed expressing themselves. But that doesn't make them human under my 21st century definition of "human". In my opinion they're animals. No, animals have empathy, they're savages.
> 
> Thus they're a bad example of "how society would've looked like without music". They have music, but what they express through music is despicable.


Anyone who vandalizes and destroys priceless ancient relics aren't human in my book.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Anyone who vandalizes and destroys priceless ancient relics aren't human in my book.


Wouldn't it be so convenient if everyone's "own book" would actually mean something that contributes to the rest of humanity? The only problem is, in order for one person to reach out to another, they must compromise, or mutually decide to follow something different altogether. That's what makes humans humans. We all want "our book" to be validated. How then does that make you any different from Islamic extremists? Don't they want the same thing?

Anyhow, my personal opinion: it would be a sad tragedy if humans never discovered music. Then again, how much more happy would we be to have the 7th sense of sklorfing, which our minds can't possibly fathom since we don't have sklorf sensory organs? I guess we'll never know. All we can do is speak from our experiences that we already know. Maybe we (and they who have no music) would do just fine. I guess what I'm saying is... What difference does experiencing and not experiencing truly make?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Wouldn't it be so convenient if everyone's "own book" would actually mean something that contributes to the rest of humanity? The only problem is, in order for one person to reach out to another, they must compromise, or mutually decide to follow something different altogether. That's what makes humans humans. We all want "our book" to be validated. How then does that make you any different from Islamic extremists? Don't they want the same thing?


A huge difference is that hpowders doesn't have plans to blow up innocent people. I do believe that ISIS members are all too human; I just wish they were dead humans.

As for the connection between humans and music, it's been a very strong connection for thousands of years and will continue indefinitely.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Anyhow, my personal opinion: it would be a sad tragedy if humans never discovered music. Then again, how much more happy would we be to have the 7th sense of sklorfing, which our minds can't possibly fathom since we don't have sklorf sensory organs? I guess we'll never know. All we can do is speak from our experiences that we already know. Maybe we (and they who have no music) would do just fine. I guess what I'm saying is... What difference does experiencing and not experiencing truly make?


Okay. This post simply blew my mind. Fantastic!


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Interesting discussion. Just to add that music wasn't always the ideal mark of civilization. It can express both joy as well as a dark side. The Nazis marched to Prussian military music in their parades and fashioned Wagner to fit their ideology. It can be uplifting and also motivate man to his basest element. The animal world doesn't have music, but then they don't make war between themselves. I guess I see music as a good thing, but not necessarily a superior thing over the rest of the living world.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

It is inseparable to label an entity as "society" without music. Music reflects society and values.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> It is inseparable to label an entity as "society" without music. Music reflects society and values.


Thinking about today's music, this makes me really sad.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

mstar said:


> Thinking about today's music, this makes me really sad.


But oh so true...


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## Classical Performances (Mar 8, 2016)

The ability to appreciate music and art is one of the definitive characteristics that make us human. It separates us from animals. Is it needed for us to survive? No. It is a gift. In a different existance, the sounds that suround us and our voices could merely have played functional roles. But life is so much more enjoyable when we have a brain and mind that can understand and process the beauty of melodies, harmonies and chords.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

mstar said:


> Thinking about today's music, this makes me really sad.


Me too. It seems humanity has passed the pinnacle of its musical abilities some time in the 1800s. From that Everest the way is only downhill.

As for what the world would be like without music, just imagine a world populated by robots. No emotion, just the pure cold logic. In some ways it would probably be a better place to live, but only in some.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> As for what the world would be like without music, just imagine a world populated by robots. No emotion, just the pure cold logic. In some ways it would probably be a better place to live, but only in some.


"It's all in how you arrange the thing... the careful balance of the design is the motion." -Andrew Wyeth


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Gouldanian said:


> There's plenty of evidence that music was there when humans began evolving from mere animals to civilized individuals. Whether by vocal tunes or sounds made on primitif instruments, music was there.....


I believe that music evolved as a much more complex manifestation of group vocalization--much like the howling of packs of wolves--to establish bonding among our very earliest ancestors. Various other primates also engage in group vocalization to bond and to announce to neighboring social groups that this is our particular territory, etc. Music has come a long way since, with the invention of instruments, and the pursuit of vigorous experimentation and composition for its own sake. But I think it always presupposes an audience of others to hear it, and when we hear it, a recognition that someone is trying to communicate to other humans. How enjoyable or how benign that communication is, is another story: group solidarity can be among nasty groups indeed. Imagine for a moment, in some parallel world, the Hallelujah Chorus music set to a text extolling the coming of Adolph Hitler or Pol Pot or Vlad the Impaler as the savior of some particular group. Imagine your thrill as you join the mighty chorus of praise and joy: And He Shall Reign For Ever and Ever. In this sense, music can serve many purposes indeed; it depends upon the purposes we put it to.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Me too. It seems humanity has passed the pinnacle of its musical abilities some time in the 1800s. From that Everest the way is only downhill.
> 
> As for what the world would be like without music, just imagine a world populated by robots. No emotion, just the pure cold logic. In some ways it would probably be a better place to live, but only in some.


The machines would eliminate us. Cold logic wouldn't stand for such emotional and unpredictable creatures.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Morimur said:


> The machines would eliminate us. Cold logic wouldn't stand for such emotional and unpredictable creatures.


Thanks for the compliment.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> Imagine for a moment, in some parallel world, the Hallelujah Chorus music set to a text extolling the coming of Adolph Hitler or Pol Pot or Vlad the Impaler as the savior of some particular group. Imagine your thrill as you join the mighty chorus of praise and joy: And He Shall Reign For Ever and Ever.


Well, this is basically the same piece as the "Hallelujah" chorus, and Handel wrote it for the coronation of George II, who, from the point of view of the Wabanaki, the Catholic Irish, and the black slaves bought, sold, and held under his reign, _was_ Vlad the Impaler:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Well, this is basically the same piece as the "Hallelujah" chorus, and Handel wrote it for the coronation of George II, who, from the point of view of the Wabanaki, the Catholic Irish, and the black slaves bought, sold, and held under his reign, _was_ Vlad the Impaler:


Music, like almost all of our various "inventions"--science, religion--can be/is often used for purposes both good and ill.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I discussed my 'backwards and inside-out' approach in the religious music on the Religious Music forum, and I will summarize it here.

If we focus on ourselves, rather than on the music, whatever form it may take, we begin to see that humanity has common and universal qualities which we all share, essentially, regardless of what culture or ideology has distorted, changed, suppressed, or removed.

Inside of all people are 'triggers' which can be activated by music. Music has the power to bring us back to our essence, regardless of the culture from which the music came. If the music triggers these effects, it is doing its job.

Once we realize this, we can access music of any culture, and use it to heighten our sense of being human, which is in the end a spiritual, sacred sense of being.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Gouldanian said:


> There's plenty of evidence that music was there when humans began evolving from mere animals to civilized individuals. Whether by vocal tunes or sounds made on primitif instruments, music was there, evolving with the evolution of eras. It is my strong believe that man expressed himself (and still does today in more vulgar ways) through music. Our glory, our weaknesses, our sorrows and anything we feel or think is expressed in music, and always has been. .


Oi! Less of the 'mere animals'! Some of us closet zoologists might be forced to come out.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> [O]ur sense of being human, (....) is in the end a spiritual, sacred sense of being.


Speaking for myself only, I do not experience my sense of being human as a spiritual, sacred sense of being; rather, I regard myself as a member of a species of highly self-aware primate that has quite lost its way, and threatens to destroy the biosphere in which it evolved. Music, in that sense, is both solace and distraction.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Speaking for myself only, I do not experience my sense of being human as a spiritual, sacred sense of being; rather, I regard myself as a member of a species of highly self-aware primate that has quite lost its way, and threatens to destroy the biosphere in which it evolved. Music, in that sense, is both solace and distraction.


But it is likely that highly self-aware species will have some form of self-expression that is the "arts".


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Me too. It seems humanity has passed the pinnacle of its musical abilities some time in the 1800s. From that Everest the way is only downhill.
> 
> As for what the world would be like without music, just imagine a world populated by robots. No emotion, just the pure cold logic. In some ways it would probably be a better place to live, but only in some.


It would be a world that is more "fair", but would you want to live in such a lifeless world? If your answer is "no" then it wouldn't have been a better place to live.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Imagine for a moment, in some parallel world, the Hallelujah Chorus music set to a text extolling the coming of Adolph Hitler or Pol Pot or Vlad the Impaler as the savior of some particular group. Imagine your thrill as you join the mighty chorus of praise and joy: And He Shall Reign For Ever and Ever. In this sense, music can serve many purposes indeed; it depends upon the purposes we put it to.


"Context" can either ruin or embellish a piece of music... hence why I'm always excited to hear a new piece of music that my mind hasn't yet contaminated with the context that it knows.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> I discussed my 'backwards and inside-out' approach in the religious music on the Religious Music forum, and I will summarize it here.
> 
> If we focus on ourselves, rather than on the music, whatever form it may take, we begin to see that humanity has common and universal qualities which we all share, essentially, regardless of what culture or ideology has distorted, changed, suppressed, or removed.
> 
> ...


Humans are filled with triggers, but none more powerful than music. Propaganda Governments understood that very well. So did the Church and basically all other religions. Music is sacred... Ask Bach.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> Speaking for myself only, I do not experience my sense of being human as a spiritual, sacred sense of being; rather, I regard myself as a member of a species of highly self-aware primate that has quite lost its way, and threatens to destroy the biosphere in which it evolved. Music, in that sense, is both solace and distraction.


Okay for the moment, but wait until you lose your grip and are slowly sliding down the roof of a 3-story building; then maybe this 'sacred sense of being' will occur to you.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> But it is likely that highly self-aware species will have some form of self-expression that is the "arts".


Is it? I find this very fascinating, because if you're right and if self-aware, intelligent lifeforms are not a one-time anomaly here on earth, the universe could be full of music.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

DeepR said:


> Is it? I find this very fascinating, because if you're right and if self-aware, intelligent lifeforms are not a one-time anomaly here on earth, the universe could be full of music.


How exciting would that be?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

DeepR said:


> Is it? I find this very fascinating, because if you're right and if self-aware, intelligent lifeforms are not a one-time anomaly here on earth, the universe could be full of music.


Could be, but I'd guess it wouldn't be music as we understand it. We evolved with auditory perception of a specific frequency range. Hearing was really for survival first, and any pleasure from it secondary. Probably as a social or cultural bonding need.

I'd be interested in how 'self-aware' is being defined here. Sometimes these lines aren't as black and white as we (in our self-cenetered view of ourselves) think.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Okay for the moment, but wait until you lose your grip and are slowly sliding down the roof of a 3-story building; then maybe this 'sacred sense of being' will occur to you.


Okay, been there, done that several times--scared skinny, happy to be alive, but flesh out the "sacred" part for me. "Scared" is "sacred" with two letters transposed, I note in passing as a totally irrelevant factoid.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> Hearing was really for survival first, and any pleasure from it secondary. Probably as a social or cultural bonding need.


Pleasure and social and cultural bonding are all for survival, so this is incoherent.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Pleasure and social and cultural bonding are all for survival, so this is incoherent.


Only incoherent to you.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Strange Magic said:


> Okay, been there, done that several times--scared skinny, happy to be alive, but flesh out the "sacred" part for me. "Scared" is "sacred" with two letters transposed, I note in passing as a totally irrelevant factoid.


Maybe you are exaggerating the import of the word 'sacred.' to a starving man, a handful of corn is sacred.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Maybe you are exaggerating the import of the word 'sacred.' to a starving man, a handful of corn is sacred.


You're saying: Sacred=Really Important. I get it.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Music and humanity? Can anyone imagine two more incongruous concepts?


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Music and humanity? Can anyone imagine two more incongruous concepts?


ISIS and peaceful people.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Gouldanian said:


> ISIS and peaceful people.


Eh, in 50 years they'll all be either sell-outs or dead. (Exact ratio still to be determined.) Either way, peaceful.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Eh, in 50 years they'll all be either sell-outs or dead. (Exact ratio still to be determined.) Either way, peaceful.


By that token all humans will one day be peaceful as they're all bound to die...


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

DeepR said:


> Is it? I find this very fascinating, because if you're right and if self-aware, intelligent lifeforms are not a one-time anomaly here on earth, the universe could be full of music.


The chances that intelligent life is a one-time anomaly here on earth are miniscule. I take it for granted that millions (at least) of tiny corners of the universe are filled with music. What I wonder is: How many of these intelligent creatures settled on a system like the current equal temperament, which has colonized most of this planet? Is it derived in an obvious enough way from physical facts that many alien cultures would have converged upon it?


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Gouldanian said:


> By that token all humans will one day be peaceful as they're all bound to die...


I'll rephrase: In 50 years, they'll all be either sell-outs or killed by their enemies, less the usual attrition from natural causes.


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