# Any interest in a new TC recommended list?



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I wonder if there is an appetite for another TC recommended list, now that the pre 1700 list is finished?

Lists I would like to see:


Piano trios (I know there is already a list of piano chamber works, but I would like to see an exclusive piano trios list, piano, cello and violin - this is not my original idea)

Violin Concerti (I know there is a list of string concerti, but it's conflated with viola and cello concerti)

Works for guitar and lute (I know the repertoire isn't large, and it wouldn't be a very long list, works for guitar / lute and ensemble and works for guitar / lute solo). Solo, chamber and concerti with large ensemble.

Works for solo instruments, excluding the piano and guitar. (Solo violin, cello, flute etc. Though I suspect this would be quite a short list)

I don't think these lists always need to be ranked, they could just be an alphabetical list or chronological as a point of reference. I really like music for guitar and I'm sure that there's a lot of music I'm missing simply because I don't know it exists.

And there is no harm in updating a previously existing list as there are new people here now. Personal tastes change over time. You updated the opera list.

Thoughts?

P.S. I first wrote this a week ago in the random thoughts thread. There was no response to it. Either there is no interest or I put this idea in the wrong place. No big deal. I like lists as it gives me suggestions of what to listen to. This is the first thread I've ever started, how did I do?


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

A good idea would be to create a poll with all the big works in the standard repertoire and put them in order of total votes received.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> I wonder if there is an appetite for another TC recommended list, now that the pre 1700 list is finished?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> P.S. I first wrote this a week ago in the random thoughts thread. There was no response to it. Either there is no interest or I put this idea in the wrong place. No big deal. I like lists as it gives me suggestions of what to listen to. This is the first thread I've ever started, how did I do?


I am no doubt amongst many who didn't see it. I think starting a new thread was a good move, therefore.

Yes, I'd be interested in a new list creation project. But what sort of work to choose?


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Thanks for reposting; I never look at the Random Ideas thread. The Piano Trio is one of my favourite groupings. A Solo non-piano list would be fun too, though I predict right now J.S. Bach would appear several times in the top ten


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Electronic or electro-acoustic. 

(Well - maybe two people would vote . . .)


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

We could do another list by era since the last one turned out really well, in my opinion. Perhaps a Classical-era or 18th-century list excluding Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven (plus Bach and Handel for the full 18th century)? Otherwise, I would be interested in most of the above, though I don't know many non-piano solo works and electronic/electro-acoustic works.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

For chamber music I think we could easily reach at least 150 for Piano Chamber works (3 instruments minimum with at least one keyboard). We also haven't done Mixed Ensembles yet (3 instruments minimum, no keyboard, at least one non-string-quartet instrument).

Have to be careful not to make boundaries too narrow, or else wide swaths of music in lesser known genres may never get explored.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The piano trios and Violin concertos sound the most attractive. I am in.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Mahlerite555 said:


> A good idea would be to create a poll with all the big works in the standard repertoire and put them in order of total votes received.


Ahem, well I've already done that; see signature below .

I'll certainly try to participate in whatever new list is decided. I'm curious about guitar/lute repertoire too, though I found in my polls that such works didn't get many votes, so maybe there's not a huge knowledge base on TC.

Let me also just mention here that the revised system of nominating/polling that I initiated for the pre-1700 works list seemed to work out very well.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I would love a top CM pieces that contain guitar. Or perhaps more broadly pieces with stringed instruments other than the normal ones for quartets and such.

I'd like to see any new top list though. I like them all and find them useful for exploring.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I can help in making a longer list of guitar/lute  I don't think it's correct to say the repertoire isn't large. That's only popular to say to non-guitarists, and excusing our lack of the most famous composers


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

I'd be very interested in a Violin Concerti list/project, as there's so many more great works out there than people seem to realise - especially from the 20th century.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Any interest in purely 21st century electroaccoustic works?


(I don't listen to such music but the amount of people who'd vote sounds interesting.)


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I'd participate. Piano trios could be expanded to include chamber trios, or chamber trios with piano, maybe?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'd be happy to participate in a violin concerto. There does exist a piano chamber list, but of course, a new list could be restricted to piano trios.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

A problem with these lists is that they are not listener-sensitive. By the time they are complete they are in fact listener-catholic.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

pjang23 said:


> For chamber music I think we could easily reach at least 150 for Piano Chamber works (3 instruments minimum with at least one keyboard). We also haven't done Mixed Ensembles yet (3 instruments minimum, no keyboard, at least one non-string-quartet instrument).
> 
> Have to be careful not to make boundaries too narrow, or else wide swaths of music in lesser known genres may never get explored.


I agree, there are hundreds of piano trios to choose from. Mixed ensembles for a minimum of three instruments, no keyboard and at least one non string quartet instrument is interesting, though a complicated title.



Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I can help in making a longer list of guitar/lute  I don't think it's correct to say the repertoire isn't large. That's only popular to say to non-guitarists, and excusing our lack of the most famous composers


Totally agree. My first instrument I played was the guitar before I switched to an orchestra instrument, violin. I know and listen to some of the repertoire and I'm interested in exploring more.



SimonNZ said:


> I'd be very interested in a Violin Concerti list/project, as there's so many more great works out there than people seem to realise - especially from the 20th century.


There is some fantastic 20th century and 21st century violin concerti.



Ukko said:


> A problem with these lists is that they are not listener-sensitive. By the time they are complete they are in fact listener-catholic.


Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I looked through each post and counted what people are interested in. Not counting myself.

Piano trios 4 votes
Violin concerti 3 votes
Guitar/ lute 3 votes
Electronic 2 votes
Solo non piano 1 vote
Mixed ensembles no keyboard one non quartet instrument 1 vote
18th Century 1 vote

Nothing definitive yet, and some interest but not overwhelming. Perhaps I should have created a poll? But some of this work is a bit challenging for me as all I have at home is an iPad mini. Once I am back at work next week, I can use my desktop computer, off hours of course, to facilitate making a list, and counting votes.

And I will add another option. Any interest in a film music list?


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

senza sordino said:


> I agree, there are hundreds of piano trios to choose from. Mixed ensembles for a minimum of three instruments, no keyboard and at least one non string quartet instrument is interesting, though a complicated title.


"Mixed & Wind Chamber Ensembles" for short to include mixed works like clarinet quintets, and pure wind/brass works too.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

Just checked this piano trio repertoire list, and found (of course) that there's far more into the modern era than I was expecting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_trio_repertoire

so would be happy to be involved in that project as well


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I would go with piano trios or violin concerti, with maybe a slight preference for piano trios. To keep things interesting, I'd propose to include trios consisting of piano + stringed instrument + woodwind / horn.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I would go with piano trios or violin concerti, with maybe a slight preference for piano trios. To keep things interesting, I'd propose to include trios consisting of piano + stringed instrument + woodwind / horn.


Yeah I'd be happy to join violin concerti too.

For piano chamber I'd go with trios and larger with piano like last time, considering that save for piano quintets, the repertoire for quartets+ is relatively small. We could easily reach a longer list doing that too, and it would save the quartets+ from limbo.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

pjang23 said:


> For piano chamber I'd go with trios and larger with piano like last time, considering that save for piano quintets, the repertoire for quartets+ is relatively small. We could easily reach a longer list doing that too, and it would save the quartets+ from limbo.


Which would essentially be an updated and extended version of this 2012 list project, Pjang23. I think that would be interesting to do.

The TC Top 50 Recommended Piano Chamber Works
(Facilitated by mmsbls, 2012)

http://www.talkclassical.com/17996-compilation-tc-top-recommended.html#post283938


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Which would essentially be an updated and extended version of this 2012 list project, Pjang29. I think that would be interesting to do.
> 
> The TC Top 50 Recommended Piano Chamber Works
> (Facilitated by mmsbls, 2012)
> ...


Yeah, in my opinion we could have gone much further than 50, and by including quartets plus, we could easily match the 200 of the string quartets.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Which would essentially be an updated and extended version of this 2012 list project, Pjang23. I think that would be interesting to do.
> 
> The TC Top 50 Recommended Piano Chamber Works
> (Facilitated by mmsbls, 2012)
> ...


There's only 50 works in that list! Crikey, I think we can do better than that! Would this be any chamber music combination of instruments with piano, trios or larger? Trios, quartets, quintets, sextets etc. So Beethoven trios, Brahms quintets, Schubert Trout, Chauson Concert for violin, piano and string quartet, Poulenc Sextet for piano and winds would all be in the running and eligible? Yes, it would be interesting to do. Not my first choice, but hey, this is a democracy. Easy to reach 200 works for this combination.

Violin Concerti does have quite a bit of support and I'd be willing to run that. If I get some help with setting up the rules.

Perhaps in the future to gauge people's interest in guitar and lute music I could run a few polls. I know how much we all love polls here.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

^ Personally, I like your original suggestion: a list of just Piano Trios in the traditional format. This is a thrilling combination to experience live in the concert hall and rich with repertoire.


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Someone once recommended making an "American 100" list, there was some good support for it, but didn't happen. Would definitely be interested in that, but would also be interested in any of these projects.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

musicrom said:


> Someone once recommended making an "American 100" list, there was some good support for it, but didn't happen. Would definitely be interested in that, but would also be interested in any of these projects.


That's strange, we Europeans have almost all the composers so why on earth make a American list.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I would go with piano trios or violin concerti, with maybe a slight preference for piano trios. To keep things interesting, I'd propose to include trios consisting of piano + stringed instrument + woodwind / horn.


Couldn't have put it better myself


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Ukko*  
A problem with these lists is that they are not listener-sensitive. By the time they are complete they are in fact listener-catholic.

[by Sensa Sordino]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

I mean that the complete list is of little interest - for any specific interest/taste other than specified forces. So what's it for?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Count me as a vote for guitar/lute. Would it include transcriptions?


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I would go with piano trios or violin concerti, with maybe a slight preference for piano trios. To keep things interesting, I'd propose to include trios consisting of piano + stringed instrument + woodwind / horn.


What about violin, cello and piano for a trio?


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

musicrom said:


> Someone once recommended making an "American 100" list, there was some good support for it, but didn't happen. Would definitely be interested in that, but would also be interested in any of these projects.


I remember. This is a good idea I think, though it would be the only list that is geographic. I would be interested too.



Pugg said:


> That's strange, we Europeans have almost all the composers so why on earth make a American list.


Seriously?



jegreenwood said:


> Count me as a vote for guitar/lute. Would it include transcriptions?


I'm glad you're for the guitar and lute list, but transcriptions too? I would doubt it.



Judith said:


> What about violin, cello and piano for a trio?


My preferences are still what I originally posted in post #1: specifically trios for piano, cello and violin as there is a rich tradition of this combination. I would favour a separate piano trios list and a mixed chamber ensembles list.

Overall, there is still no real consensus. I assume we keep discussing until there is some consensus or the issue withers and dies.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Judith said:


> What about violin, cello and piano for a trio?


Sorry, if it wasn't clear. I'd taken the inclusion of the 'standard' piano trio as read.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Sorry, if it wasn't clear. I'd taken the inclusion of the 'standard' piano trio as read.


Back in the Good Old Days, there were the _standard_ trios for violin, cello-or-viola and cembalo. During the Dark Years, when the harpsichord was little played, heard or built, the piano filled the cembalo role.

[My spellchecker doesn't recognize 'cembalo', suggests 'embalm'. Hmm.]


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Pugg said:


> That's strange, we Europeans have almost all the composers so why on earth make a American list.


Isn't that a good reason to want one?


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## micro (Jun 18, 2016)

I am very interested. But since I am newbie here , what was the method of ranking the works in TC lists? voting threads or what exactly?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

micro said:


> I am very interested. But since I am newbie here , what was the method of ranking the works in TC lists? voting threads or what exactly?


The usual method has been where the list is filled 10 works at a time: everyone nominates a list of their favourite works (15 in the case of the Pre-1700 Works list that I ran), and the most popular works go on to a voting round to determine the order from 1 to 10.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Okay, what do I do now?

So far our preferences are the following: 
Piano trios 8
Violin Concerti 5
Guitar/ lute 4
Mixed chamber ensembles 3 or 4
Electronic 2
Solo non piano 1
18th century 1
American 1

I didn't include myself. And it is sometimes hard to tell if someone actually has a preference for what they wrote about in their post. 

Do we have enough interest to create a TC recommended list? We've lost a few regulars here, though since I didn't participate in the last list creation, the regulars who contributed might be different from those who regularly contribute to other threads here on TC. What are our next steps? Do we need more discussion and time?

I'm happy to facilitate the creation of the next list, provided it is one I can actually contribute myself: one of the four I mentioned in the opening post. Piano trios has come out on top, though not a lot of people contributed.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

senza sordino said:


> Okay, what do I do now?
> 
> So far our preferences are the following:
> Piano trios 8
> ...


I'm sure more people will join in the actual voting once the thread is created, but before we start, we should have a vote on the boundaries of the project, maybe through a discussion thread.

In order of preference, what kinds of works do you want this list to include?
a) Standard piano trios (piano/keyboard, violin, cello only)
b) All piano trios (piano/keyboard plus any two instruments)
c) All piano chamber (piano trios and larger)

My preference is c,b,a and my points are as follows:

-The TC lists were originally meant to complement one another so that works of all genres would eventually be explored. For example we separated piano duos from the rest of piano chamber since we figured trio plus repertoire was already big enough that duos may dilute the list and not be adequately explored, and that piano duos could be combined with other chamber duos for another separate list to also give coverage to those more obscure combos.

-Ensembles with smaller repertoires (e.g. non-standard trios, piano quartets) would not have a big impact on diluting the final list, and excluding them pretty much means they may never be voted on. This list is best place to include them.

-The inclusion of larger ensembles (particularly piano quintets) will result in a later burnout point and a longer list since there is more repertoire to draw upon, and participants' knowledge will last longer. I suspect the final list will be split roughly in half between piano trios and piano quintets, and a hypothetically shorter trios-only project will already be implicitly included.

Also if I recall, TurnaboutVox was also happy to host the next chamber project while you wanted to do the violin concerto list. Which of you two would like to do the next list?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

^Option c makes a lot of sense to me, too.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

My preference would be c as well. Sounds like a fun project, btw.


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

I prefer option a because there's a vast enough number of just those to work with, and because later composers might be revealed to be working with hindsight or allusion if the focus is kept on that specific instrumentation.

But I don't really mind and will roll with the consensus.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'm happy to participate in any of the three suggestions. I would probably vote for c.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Likewise, I would be happy with any of the three projects. I'd also be happy to help out with list moderating, vote counting, or anything else if necessary.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I prefer option a, then c, then b, but I'm open to any. I would like to participate. I couldn't participate in the pre 1700 list because I know nothing about that music, and I started to participate in the post 1950 list, but I thought the voting got silly toward the end. 

I'm glad to hear you think more people will participate once we get started. I didn't know Turnabout Vox wanted to facilitate the next chamber music list. If he wants to, please go ahead. 

So I would surmise the consensus so far is a piano chamber music. We just have to decide which, and who facilitates.


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## James Mann (Sep 6, 2016)

I think it would be a good idea


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

SimonNZ said:


> I prefer option a because there's a vast enough number of just those to work with, and because later composers might be revealed to be working with hindsight or allusion if the focus is kept on that specific instrumentation.
> 
> But I don't really mind and will roll with the consensus.


I would prefer trios only as well. Option C is essentially a re-do of the existing list. I think that the greatest benefit to a new list is the prospect of discovery of unfamiliar pieces. That happens to a far greater degree in a more focused list (i.e., without having to scroll down beyond the obligatory Trout et al. quintets and quartets).

For those newer to classical music, the original list still stands as a starting point for piano chamber exploration.

But, as Simon says, any of the options are fine.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

I prefer a) for the same reason stated by SimonNZ and Balthazar. Besides famous Classical piano trios, I hope a lot of good modern ~ contemporary works will be discovered.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Although I originally "voted" for option c, I think the points made by SimonNZ and Balthazar have convinced me to change my mind to option a. The original list only contained 21 standard piano trios, and I think many of us will discover more new works by focusing only on standard trios.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I'll go with a as my preference too.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Umm, 'wanted to' might be overegging it a little. 'Willing to', certainly, and in the past I did offer to facilitate this project at some unspecified time in the future.

But if you'd like to facilitate, senza sordino, then I think you should as I have previously had the honour so to do with the string quartets, and you've not yet had the chance.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Let me also just mention here that the revised system of nominating/polling that I initiated for the pre-1700 works list seemed to work out very well.


I will look for this, thank you



SimonNZ said:


> Just checked this piano trio repertoire list, and found (of course) that there's far more into the modern era than I was expecting:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_trio_repertoire
> 
> so would be happy to be involved in that project as well


Yes, there is a big repertoire for piano trios, not just the usual suspects. This will be a place for me to start. I know the most famous pieces, but I might run out of choices to nominate.



micro said:


> I am very interested. But since I am newbie here , what was the method of ranking the works in TC lists? voting threads or what exactly?


We take a week or so to nominate, then a week to vote on the top nominees to rank them. I will have to learn the rules too. I am a newbie at running a TC recommended list. And the more people we have the better our list. Welcome.



TurnaboutVox said:


> Umm, 'wanted to' might be overegging it a little. 'Willing to', certainly, and in the past I did offer to facilitate this project at some unspecified time in the future.
> 
> But if you'd like to facilitate, senza sordino, then I think you should as I have previously had the honour so to do with the string quartets, and you've not yet had the chance.


Okay. I think we're coming to a consensus. Piano Trios, specifically piano, cello and violin. And I will host and facilitate the next instalment of TC recommended list. I will start a discussion thread in the coming hours to settle on the rules, nominating and voting procedures, and to find out what works fit our category. Then promptly I will begin the nominating process.


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## shadowdancer (Mar 31, 2014)

Just arrived (a bit late here).
Anyway, I would like to endorse the idea. 
Starting with Piano T3s sounds great.
Count me in, senza sordino!!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> I will look for this, thank you
> 
> .... I will start a discussion thread in the coming hours to settle on the rules, nominating and voting procedures, and to find out what works fit our category. Then promptly I will begin the nominating process.


Just in case I miss the discussion later, the altered rules as laid out in the first post of the Pre-1700 Works list are here: http://www.talkclassical.com/42139-tc-top-100-recommended.html

The changes were that the nomination round didn't involve ranking, and that 15 rather than 10 works were nominated each round, even though only 10 works were enshrined in each voting round. The reason I suggested this was that previous lists had tended to need a rule-change after about 8 or 9 rounds in order to achieve a good consensus (and also because removing ranking from the nomination round simplified the process a lot, for both moderator and participants). I'm happy to say that the Pre-1700 list kept the same system all the way through.
Because the nomination round didn't have ranking, the works that went through to the voting round were simply those with the most nominations. This meant a variable number of works in each voting round, with the top 10 being enshrined and the others having to be renominated. The size of the voting round varied between 11 and 17, and the cutoff also varied - in the first round works with a total of 8 nominations went into the voting round, but by round 6 this had dropped to 5 nominations (but never went below that; there were 12-16 participants per round by that stage).


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2016)

I prefer Option A as well.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I'll happily go along with whatever, but I would suggest that Option A might bias the list against modern/contemporary works.

The old list of piano chamber works is from 2012 and is HEAVILY skewed against newer music, unless there's a more recent list that I don't know about. The current taste of the forum is such that I don't think it would be a re-do.


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