# Thoughts on Mahler Symphony No 9.



## Steber (Jul 11, 2014)

I listened to Mahler's Symphony No 9 last night with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle. A great performance on their Digital Concert Hall website. To be honest, I do disagree with those who say that this symphony is all about death. Certainly it does have a valedictory quality, but I feel that it is full of life and vitality, not dirge like or indulgent. My thoughts, while I was listening, were that perhaps Mahler did have in view an anticipation of the end of life and also the end of the national life style as the build up to the First World War approached. Am I saying that this symphony is all about endings? I don't think so. One must consider that the incomplete 10th was to be written. Mahler said that 'a symphony should contain the world.' There is a lot in a Mahler symphony, a lot to hear and a lot to interpret. Perhaps each of us should view this symphony in our own way. Has the forum any views on this?


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2014)

Personally, I have nothing to add right now, but this link might interest you, Steber:
http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jul/29/mahlers-ninth-tom-service-symphony-guide


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

All I can say is listen to one of the most difficult pieces for an orchestra to play-the last 5 minutes or so of the last movement of Mahler's 9th Symphony, played so softly at times in the strings, it is barely audible.

The usual effect when played well is many in the audience will be in tears. Life and vitality, no.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2014)

Hmmm. Or maybe it's that when it's listened to badly, many in the audience will be in tears.

Anyway, Steber, I like Gielen's recording of this piece very much, principally because Gielen plays it as a piece of music not as some philosophical or autobiographical musing. (Musing. That was a nice pun.) And it's a fine piece of music.

A lot of people don't seem to appreciate music very much, so they bend all their efforts to turning it into something else before it can be considered valuable. I think it's fine all on its own, myself.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahler said that if he could express in words what he expressed in music, he would not have needed to or have written music.

His 9th symphony is devoid of a composer-given sub-headed title, or any vocal parts with text. I would take, then, the composer's word for it that for the 9th, _there are no words,_ no translatable (into any form of speech) 'message,' or 'story.'

If the composer said nothing directly about it, I'm certainly not going to take second-party guesses as being of any worth at all.

It is symphony No. 9; it is all notes, no words. The best place to start, then, is with that in mind, and regard it for face value only -- while dismissing any and all stories fabricated by any who were not Mahler


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

some guy said:


> A lot of people don't seem to appreciate music very much, so they bend all their efforts to turning it into something else before it can be considered valuable. I think it's fine all on its own, myself.





PetrB said:


> It is symphony No. 9; it is all notes, no words. The best place to start, then, is with that in mind, and regard it's face value only -- while dismissing any and all stories fabricated by any who were not Mahler


People enjoy listening to music individually, but they also enjoy trying to communicate something of their experience to others (that's one of the reasons for a site like this). Such communication has to employ words. And while it may include detailed analysis in purely musical terms, ultimately we can only suggest the fullness of our response in language that goes beyond mere technical analysis and ventures into imagery, metaphor, even poetry of a sort. Such language is necessarily imprecise and certainly at a remove from the "notes" themselves, but is nonetheless indispensable if we hope to share something of what music can mean to us.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

I find the juxtaposition of those massive climaxes with the moments of 'chamber music', mostly in the andante and the adagio, particularly powerful. I think the inner movements serve their purpose well, and his use of counterpoint in the Rondo-Burleske is stunning, but together they go on for perhaps too long and are not hugely enjoyable, to me at least.

In any case its beauty and capacity to "move" is profound, and for me it would be my favourite of his symphonies, if not for the 4th.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2014)

Steber said:


> I listened to Mahler's Symphony No 9 last night with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle. A great performance on their Digital Concert Hall website. To be honest, I do disagree with those who say that this symphony is all about death. Certainly it does have a valedictory quality, but I feel that it is full of life and vitality, not dirge like or indulgent. My thoughts, while I was listening, were that perhaps Mahler did have in view an anticipation of the end of life and also the end of the national life style as the build up to the First World War approached. Am I saying that this symphony is all about endings? I don't think so. One must consider that the incomplete 10th was to be written. Mahler said that 'a symphony should contain the world.' There is a lot in a Mahler symphony, a lot to hear and a lot to interpret. Perhaps each of us should view this symphony in our own way. Has the forum any views on this?


I don't think Mahler had any such notions about the end of national life style and the build up to the First World War when writing this symphony. I'm not aware of him being in any ways prescient politically. The symphony was written between 1908 and 1909. Mahler died in 1911. WWI didn't begin until 1914. There had been perpetual squabblings over borders and identities for quite some time. Germany had only recently come into existence as a united country. I think WWI caught most people by surprise, so I don't particularly think Mahler was anticipating any such thing as he was constructing this symphony.

I don't particularly interpret music broader than what it is. Perhaps some of that comes from my lack of understanding of musical theory, etc. I know that Bach's St. Matthew Passion is a musical depiction of the sufferings of Christ as his mortal life was coming to a close. I know that Mozart's Magic Flute is a whimsical opera that has heavy Masonic ideas that are rather obviously interspersed throughout. And I know that Mahler's 9th is a fantastic symphony that I enjoy hearing.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The Mahler Ninth remains a monument in our musical culture, regardless of its "meaning". But I can not help hearing a dying man's commentary of life and death when I listen to it, and that final movement is especially telling. I wouldn't suggest that Mahler anticipated world wars; he was not a soothsayer. But he did know something about music, and he was up on the current trends, and he certainly felt the Schoenbergian wave coming out of Vienna. So when I listen to the final movement of the Ninth, I hear Mahler taking that familiar motif (the "turn") of his beloved Western Germanic-tradition music (a phrase used by everyone from Bach, through Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert...) and depicting its very death. So the Symphony is not just about the death of a man (specifically the composer), but of the music he so loved. 

And it is a depressing ending. Which is why I think the Tenth gains importance. When I listen to the Tenth Symphony, in any of its current "completions", I hear a much more optimistic work. I always envision the dying composer, literally on his death bed, scrambling to pen out that Tenth because he realized, deep in his heart, that life was certainly more positive than he had proclaimed it in the Ninth. (One need only look back over his other symphonies to see what Mahler's optimism was all about.) I get the feeling that Mahler did not want his final symphonic word to be so gloomy.

Which leads me to what is, I think, the finest moment in all of classical music -- the most sublime moment in music: the segment for strings that occurs near the end of the final movement of that Tenth Symphony. It is one of the moments in the short score that Mahler marked for specific instrumentation, as if he knew he would never finish his final symphony but wanted this important moment to stand. (I posted on this "moment" in the Tenth on another thread on this Forum, some of you may recall.) In any case, I feel that Mahler was attempting to revitalize his final statement with the Tenth, because he came to that same conclusion that Beethoven invokes in the finale of the 16th Quartet -- that life is something that must be expressed with joy and laughter, even at the end, in order for it to make any sense at all.

Beethoven taught Mahler many things. I believe Mahler learned not only how to live, but how to die from the elder composer, and the Tenth Symphony assures us of that. Which doesn't negate the Ninth, at all. Since the Ninth becomes somewhat like the first three movements of Beethoven's last quartet, or the first three movements of his Ninth Symphony. I always thought that maybe Mahler wrote his "Resurrection Symphony" a bit too early.

The Ninth remains a monument, and if one wants to enjoy it on sheer musical grounds, that is quite readily available. It's a fine piece of music. But if one wishes to explore it philosophically, I would suggest that Mahler allows for that as well. Which is what a symphony being like the world is really all about.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

SONNET CLV said:


> But he did know something about music, and he was up on the current trends, and he certainly felt the Schoenbergian wave coming out of Vienna. So when I listen to the final movement of the Ninth, I hear Mahler taking that familiar motif (the "turn") of his beloved Western Germanic-tradition music (a phrase used by everyone from Bach, through Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert...) and depicting its very death. So the Symphony is not just about the death of a man (specifically the composer), but of the music he so loved.


Mahler was friends with Schoenberg, and one of his greatest supporters (his only established supporter after Strauss abandoned him). He saw no death that way, but life. What you have written is undoubtedly false.



SONNET CLV said:


> And it is a depressing ending.


Then why do so many hear it otherwise? I doubt that Mahler saw it as depressing. I doubt that Walter and Schoenberg, who knew Mahler, saw it as depressing (though the latter had some interesting things to say about the Ninth). I don't hear it as depressing at all.



SONNET CLV said:


> Which is why I think the Tenth gains importance. When I listen to the Tenth Symphony, in any of its current "completions", I hear a much more optimistic work. I always envision the dying composer, literally on his death bed, scrambling to pen out that Tenth because he realized, deep in his heart, that life was certainly more positive than he had proclaimed it in the Ninth. (One need only look back over his other symphonies to see what Mahler's optimism was all about.) I get the feeling that Mahler did not want his final symphonic word to be so gloomy.


Mahler wrote the Tenth Symphony in his summer cottage. Then he conducted the premiere of the Eighth a few months later. On his death bed, the following year, he was far too sick to compose, having barely the presence to be able to speak much or do anything at all. Your fanciful description is provably out of alignment with the facts.

And I also hear the Tenth as a more conflicted work than the Ninth in a number of ways. It's extremely dark.



SONNET CLV said:


> Which leads me to what is, I think, the finest moment in all of classical music -- the most sublime moment in music: the segment for strings that occurs near the end of the final movement of that Tenth Symphony. It is one of the moments in the short score that Mahler marked for specific instrumentation, as if he knew he would never finish his final symphony but wanted this important moment to stand.


Mahler actually asked for the score to be destroyed (all of the movements). His instructions were not carried out. His score contains several specific indications of instrumentation, so calling for the strings at that moment is hardly an isolated occurrence.



SONNET CLV said:


> The Ninth remains a monument, and if one wants to enjoy it on sheer musical grounds, that is quite readily available. It's a fine piece of music. But if one wishes to explore it philosophically, I would suggest that Mahler allows for that as well. Which is what a symphony being like the world is really all about.


Of course one can approach it from a variety of perspectives. I just hope that people actually care about who Mahler really was, and not the person whom Bernstein imagined and others have latched onto because of that image's sentimental value.

Hearing the ending of the Ninth as shot through with conflict and emotion without being in the least despairing or depressed seems to me to closer approach the man as artist.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

@Mahlerian
Wonderful insight, I'm still new to Mahler and it certainly is difficult to sift through the amount of myths and actual facts out there. I've only heard the 9th once, it certainly won't be the last. Therefore, I can only speak on the merits of the symphony itself without Mahler's life affecting my listening. I found the gradual fading of the music in the last minutes to be very poignant, it certainly does not exclusively lead to a pessimism or an acceptance of death. I can just as readily read it as a positive acceptance of life itself, or perhaps finding inner peace. Then again, I can also understand someone hearing something dark or pessimistic as well. There does seem to be a bit of musical ambiguity inherent to the music's gradual fading. Is it life-affirming peace or is it death, or both? Is there pessimism or optimism? Once more, this is without taking Mahler's life into account. 

"maybe for us, it should be an insight into life – albeit a life transformed after the intensity of what you’ll have been through after listening to any complete performance of his symphony – rather than a leaving of it." - Tom Service, The Guardian

Myself, I rather enjoy the optimistic interpretations.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

The Mahler 9 is one of the great human statements. Personally I have always regarded it as Mahler's goodbye, his statement of a life complete, if unfulfilled. Though he had previously completed Der Abschied (The Farewell) in Das Lied the year before the 9th it is my opinion that the dying notes of the final adagio in the 9th say it more completely.
My own personal favourite recording of the 9th is Haitink's 1969 one with the Concertgebouw, though a recently heard version by Abbado and the Lucerne Festival Orchestra seemed wonderful. I have only heard the latter once so I can offer no guarantee on it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Steber said:


> I listened to Mahler's Symphony No 9 last night with the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle. A great performance on their Digital Concert Hall website. To be honest, I do disagree with those who say that this symphony is all about death. Certainly it does have a valedictory quality, but I feel that it is full of life and vitality, not dirge like or indulgent. My thoughts, while I was listening, were that perhaps Mahler did have in view an anticipation of the end of life and also the end of the national life style as the build up to the First World War approached. Am I saying that this symphony is all about endings? I don't think so. One must consider that the incomplete 10th was to be written. Mahler said that 'a symphony should contain the world.' There is a lot in a Mahler symphony, a lot to hear and a lot to interpret. Perhaps each of us should view this symphony in our own way. Has the forum any views on this?


I just heard it again on the weekend, funnily enough. I covered it in my blog (link in my footer below). I think I didn't really do justice to it there, but some of my material was an essay on it by Paul Bekker, written in the early 20th century.

There are allusions to Mahler's world in it, snatches of marches, of folk music (landlers), of fanfares, gypsy fiddling, perhaps even fairground music and the last movement has a strong feel of choral music. Just like Haydn, whose symphonies contain things like bagpipe drones, folk and gypsy tunes, horn calls (from hunting), sounds of animals and so on, Mahler's symphonies are like a portrait of the city during his time. But unlike Haydn - or Beethoven, Brahms, all the symphonists before him save perhaps Tchaikovsky - Mahler's symphony ends in an ambigious manner. There is more doubt here than resolve. Whatever the case, I agree with what Neville Cardus said about Mahler, reflecting on his symphonies containing the whole world. Cardus said Mahler was the most philosophical of all composers.

The big thing about this work is the looseness of structure within such a vast canvas. Thematic integrity is maintained, but there is also a lot of fragmentation. One of my sources said that he dispenses with sonata form entirely, but the focus become the duality of themes - especially in the first movement, that sad kind of sighing opening contrasting with a more dramatic and anguished idea coming a bit later. This dualism continues in the next two movements, and then the final movement has this thinning out of texture into nothingness.

There are links between the 9th and 10th symphonies, and Das Lied - in terms of themes, structure and content (eg. the beginning of the ninth symphony starts where the 'Ewig' last movement of Das Lied ends).

In terms of a firm symphonic program, there is none, but as other composers - like Debussy, Brahms and Rachmaninov - Mahler began his symphonies with some sort of narrative or program in mind. However the end product is divorced from that, for him it was more a starting process rather than trying to tell any literal story (unlike Richard Strauss' tone poems or symphonies, that being the best contrast in terms of Mahler's contemporaries). One quote I came across from Mahler was that every symphony since Beethoven could be called program music (implying not necessarily strictly, but in this general or loose way).

Its a daunting but enriching experience, when I heard it live the conductor thanked and applauded his musicians for the performance. Mahler demands a lot from his musicians, so too from his audiences. But he gives back tenfold, his last three works have many links and can be called one big work. That's even more daunting, but I am fascinated by the linkages between these pieces, as well as their impacts on future composers, same as with Beethoven's late quartets.


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## DrMuller (May 26, 2014)

Which of his 9 symphonies have vocals and which don't ( I know the 4th has vocals and the 5th doesn't)?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I believe that the 1st, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th don't have vocals... Oops, forgot about the 10th, no vocals on that one either.


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## Muddy (Feb 5, 2012)

Jesus. I hate to admit it. But what is his 10th? I adore Mahler and am familiar with all 9 symphonies. What is this 10th???


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Muddy said:


> Jesus. I hate to admit it. But what is his 10th? I adore Mahler and am familiar with all 9 symphonies. What is this 10th???


You should start by reading the wikipeadia article on this work: Mahler's Tenth Symphony

Reading some of the posts in this thread I suddenly connected, is it my imagination running wild or do anyone else see the ideological similarities between Mahler and Charles Ives? They differ slightly in tonality, but the way they build their compositions by constantly shifting and "renewing" the propulsive structures of their music...

/ptr


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ptr said:


> Reading some of the posts in this thread I suddenly connected, is it my imagination running wild or do anyone else see the ideological similarities between Mahler and Charles Ives? They differ slightly in tonality, but the way they build their compositions by constantly shifting and "renewing" the propulsive structures of their music...


They also both make use of popular music as material for larger forms and make use of very free voice leading for each line. There's a story that Mahler was looking at the score for Ives's Symphony No. 3 and planned on having it performed by the New York Philharmonic before his untimely death prevented this. If this had happened, imagine how much differently Ives's career might have developed! Unfortunately, the story cannot be confirmed, and it seems somewhat apocryphal.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

His 5th used to be my favorite of his symphonies. But my opinion has changed since then, the 9th is my favorite symphony. The music is the most bizarre combination of nostalgia and calm acceptance. It's almost tranquil, and each movement is so extreme in it's delivery. The first is very beautiful, makes me think of nature scenes. The second is a lot of fun. The third is rowdy. The fourth is transcendent.

This is a negative quote of the work: "Someday, some real friends of Mahler's will ... take a pruning knife and reduce his works to the length that they would have been if the composer had not stretched them out of shape; and then the great Mahler war will be over ... The Ninth Symphony would last about twenty minutes." - Deems Taylor

Agree to disagree, Mr. Taylor, but where is your soul?!

I think Karajan said it best; "It is music coming from another world, it is coming from eternity."


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't find the end depressing at all. The finale to the 9th is the most glorious part of the symphony.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

dat necrobumperino :tiphat:

the ending is both depressing and hopeful..like most mahler
It actually conjures up vivid memories of my dad dying pretty much every time I hear it


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Mahler kaleidoscope. There's a wide range of emotion in all his symphonies. Different periods of his life are often in full view. There's also the less obvious, evidencing he could write sad while happy, and vice versa. :tiphat:


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Eight of Mahler's brothers and sisters died in childhood. His oldest daughter died three years after he finished composing his Kindertotenlieder(Songs on the Death of Children), which he based on five of the 428 poems written by Friedrich Ruckert about the death of two of his own children. Wrote Mahler regarding his Kindertotenlieder, "I placed myself in the situation that a child of mine had died. When I really lost my [own] daughter, I could not have written these songs any more." In the same year Mahler's daughter died(1907), he was diagnosed with heart disease. He went on to compose his Ninth Symphony from 1908 to 1909. He died in 1911. There are still many unanswered questions about the Mahler mystique, but it would be hard to deny the profound influence the issue of death had on his emotional mindset.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> I think Karajan said it best; "It is music coming from another world, it is coming from eternity."


You see: Karajan was a very wise man, most of the time anyway.


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