# Leo Nucci: A Much Needed Tribute



## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Leo Nucci is an Italian baritone born on April 16, 1942 in Bologna. He is known in particular for his performances of Verdi.

A new discovery for me, I am captivated by this *man's voice, facial expressions, indeed whole-body expression of the emotions and meanings of the music*. I found him while searching for a video of Verdi's _Pieta, Rispetto, Amore_ for the "Favorite Verdi Piece Thread". In this search for him on the internet-including his own website-I found only a disgraceful lack of information, commentaries and praise.



*Please share your memories, thoughts, knowledge, and reflections on this amazing man and performer*. (And, hopefully, one of the many gifted writers here on TC will submit a new biography to _The Grove_ and rewrite the Wiki article.)

Please Watch: 




Leo Nucci Official Website: http://www.leonucci.net/

Current _Grove Music Online Biography_ and Entry in _The New Grove Dictionary of Opera_:

Nucci, Leo (b Castiglione dei Pepoli, Bologna, 16 April 1942). Italian baritone. A pupil of Giuseppe Marchese, he sang Rossini's Figaro at Spoleto in 1967, then sang in the chorus at la Scala during further study and made his fully professional début in 1975 at Venice as Schaunard. He appeared at La Scala in 1976 as Figaro, at Covent Garden in 1978 as Miller (_Luisa Miller_), and as Renato at the Metropolitan in 1980, the Paris Opéra in 1981 and Salzburg in 1989. Nucci has sung throughout Italy and in San Francisco, Chicago, Brussels and Hamburg. His repertory includes Marcello, Lescaut, Sharpless, Belcore, Malatesta, Mamm' Agata (Le convenienze ed inconvenienze teatrali), Barnaba (La Gioconda), Yevgeny Onegin and Gounod's Mercutio, but his fine voice, strong technique and acting ability are displayed to best advantage in Verdi, in the roles of Germont, Luna, Macbeth, Don Carlo (_La forza del destino_), Posa, Amonasro, Ford and Rigoletto, which he sang at the Metropolitan in 1989.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Nucci

Leo Nucci (born 16 April 1942) is an Italian operatic baritone, particularly suited to Verdi roles.

Biography:

Born at Castiglione dei Pepoli, near Bologna, he studied with Giuseppe Marchese and made his stage debut in Spoleto, as Figaro in Il barbiere di Siviglia, in 1967, he then joined the chorus of La Scala in Milan, and made his solo debut there in 1975, again as Figaro.

His career quickly took an international turn with debut at the Royal Opera House in London, as Miller in _Luisa Miller_, in 1978, and at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, as Renato/Ankarström in _Un ballo in maschera_, in 1980. Renato was also his debut role at the Paris Opéra in 1981, and the Salzburg Festival in 1989, under Herbert Von Karajan. His career is remembered for famous performances in the opera world, including works with Luciano Pavarotti, Joan Sutherland,Plácido Domingo and others.

His repertoire encompasses the entire Italian repertory from bel canto to verismo, but his sonorous voice, secure technique and dramatic abilities are best displayed in Verdi - notably as Rigoletto, Macbeth, Count di Luna, Giorgio Germont,Rodrigo, Amonasro, Iago, and Falstaff. He has sung the role of Rigoletto alone more than 400 times.

On June 06, 2003 Leo Nucci scintillated at the Herbert von Karajan memorial concert under the baton of conductor James Allen Gähres in Congress Centrum Ulm, together with the singers Stella Grigorian and Vera Schoenberg with Italian opera arias and duets.

In January 2016 he performed at La Scala of Milan as Rigoletto in _Rigoletto_ with Nadine Sierra as Gilda.

Nucci has enjoyed a long and successful career and is still active.

Private life:

He is married to soprano Adriana Anelli, with whom he has a daughter.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I'll have to stay out of this thread as I simply don't care for his singing, though I do agree he's an exceptional actor.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I am sorry to say ;I feel the same as Bellinlover


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

I respect his craft but just like Gruberova, Devia, and Domingo, Nucci has to go. He's dragging on for FAR too long and he has a pretty bad wobble because of it. He (like his other cohorts,) need to give it up and do recitals or just retire go away. With all due respect, Nucci's grand Kavalierbaritone voice is no longer grand and is just being shouted for money. He was always a Second rate baritone under the likes of Sherrill Milnes, Renato Bruson, Vladmir Chernov, and Giorgio Zancanero.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

To clarify (and then I promise I'll bow out of this thread!), I think the quality of Nucci's _voice_ was very fine; it's his _style_ of singing I've never liked. The thing I hated most was the way he would slide up to notes. I wouldn't have minded if he'd only done this occasionally -- but it seemed to me like every single time he wanted to go from a relatively low note to a higher one, he would slide up to it, rather than hit it directly. To my ear he also did too much "barking" of his music and too little legato singing. "Cortigiani," from RIGOLETTO, for example -- on the recordings I've heard of him singing it he shouts the opening phrases, and if there's one thing I can't stand it's hearing those phrases "yelled" instead of sung. It just sounds so pedestrian to me.

Many people adore Nucci, though, so they must be hearing something in his singing that I'm not.

Edited to add: To give an idea of my taste in baritones, I love all the singers mentioned in the post right above mine (well, I don't really _love_ Bruson but I don't dislike him). Other favorites of mine include Robert Merrill, Thomas Allen, Simon Keenlyside, Lawrence Tibbett, Quinn Kelsey, Peter Mattei, and the 19th/early 20th century baritone Giuseppe De Luca.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Post deleted because it wasn't very polite.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> To clarify (and then I promise I'll bow out of this thread!), I think the quality of Nucci's _voice_ was very fine; it's his _style_ of singing I've never liked. The thing I hated most was the way he would slide up to notes. I wouldn't have minded if he'd only done this occasionally -- but it seemed to me like every single time he wanted to go from a relatively low note to a higher one, he would slide up to it, rather than hit it directly. To my ear he also did too much "barking" of his music and too little legato singing. "Cortigiani," from RIGOLETTO, for example -- on the recordings I've heard of him singing it he shouts the opening phrases, and if there's one thing I can't stand it's hearing those phrases "yelled" instead of sung. It just sounds so pedestrian to me.
> 
> Many people adore Nucci, though, so they must be hearing something in his singing that I'm just not.
> 
> Edited to add: To give an idea of my taste in baritones, I love all the singers mentioned in the post right above mine (well, I don't really _love_ Bruson but I don't dislike him). Other favorites of mine include Robert Merrill, Thomas Allen, Simon Keenlyside, Lawrence Tibbett, Quinn Kelsey, Peter Mattei, and the 19th/early 20th century baritone Giuseppe De Luca.


:Bellinilover: Your second post here has anticipated a few of the questions I was going to ask in my next post.  First, thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread, etc., etc. I greatly appreciate honest opinions. Second, please do not "bow out of this thread" because the OP is written as if to only seek praise or "positive" remarks. Since I started the thread (and as long as the moderators don't have a problem with a change of focus) we can discuss what we don't like about Nucci and Nucci's and other baritones' performances of Verdi's MacBeth (and Rigoleto). If you want to bow out because you don't have the time or interest than by all means do.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> I knew the name, but not the voice, so I looked him up on youtube. First up was a 'Cortigiani' from 2006, of which I listened to the first minute. On the basis of that limited evidence, he is probably the worst 'singer' I have ever heard. Given his clearly advanced age at the time of filming, it's likely that his earlier work might be much better, but anyone who thinks that gruesome kind of wobbling and shouting is acceptable_ at any age_ clearly does not have any kind of artistic feeling, whatever the quality of his voice might once have been.


:Figleaf: Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this thread; 'will address Rigoletto in a future post.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

If not Nucci, in the Verdi opera world of the the 1970's through 2006, whom do you consider the best (Italian) opera baritones, particularly in the role of Macbeth (and now adding Rigoletto)?

:Bellinilover: :BaritoneA: Please state your preferred MacBeth's and Rigoletto's from the following list:
(Sherrill Milnes, Renato Bruson, Vladmir Chernov, and Giorgio Zancanero, Robert Merrill, Thomas Allen, Simon Keenlyside, Lawrence Tibbett, Quinn Kelsey, Peter Mattei, Giuseppe De Luca)

In terms of post-2006 Verdi MacBeth's, the vocal (not performance/acting) aspects of the following excel Nucci's IMO:

Hvorosovksy 




Hobson 




IMO these are first voices whose strength, depth, warmth and expressiveness are greater than Nucci's, but they are singers of another generation.

I would prefer to leave the question of whether Nucci should greatly reduce his public performances to the other TC thread: http://www.talkclassical.com/44004-when-should-opera-stars.html I say this because I don't think the overall body of Nucci's (or any other singer's) performances should be discounted if the person continues to perform too long.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

The most important question for me at this point in the thread--the one that Bellinilover has touched upon--singing style:

Do you think it was the case that Nucci was restraining his vocal abilities, particularly the use of limited legato and refraining from the long holding of notes because he was a performer who followed a very close reading of the score? I have only looked at _MacBeth_, when I return to the computer later today I will look at _Rigoletto_.

The following is a link to the _MacBeth_ vocal score, once you get to that page.
Go down to "Sheet Music".
Then click on the "Vocal Scores (4)" Tab.
Then click "View, 1847 Version". "Pieta, rispeta…" begins on p. 225.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Macbeth_(Verdi,_Giuseppe)

Nucci compared to Hvor, Hobson and Milnes seems to be holding the notes closest to their scored values, he takes the noted rests, consistently performs staccato where it is noted, and holds the fermata close to twice the value of the notes. To my ear, this makes a much less attractive sound but it is how the score is written (unless Verdi is saying that _con expressione_ means you can override any of the above aspects of the piece). It seems that Nucci is very capable of producing that beautiful legato, extended sound as I hear in the final line of this aria-sort of him saying, I could have done this all the way through, but that's not how Verdi composed it.

This is the Nucci film performance I am talking about:






Begin at 1:59:25.

Along the very same line, is Nucci's strict following of the score/staccato, limited note values part of his interpretation of the character of MacBeth…. In his YouTube performance of the film _MacBeth_, MacBeth is an active character-he's not a complete coward/frozen in self-doubt/inanimate: he gets up, takes the sword, un-barricades the door….?

Again, I don't know what is going on in Rigoletto yet, and *if I have made any factual errors in this thread please correct me*--that has nothing to do with posting style.

All of the above are posted as straightforward, honest questions, I have no vested interest in Nucci.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> :Figleaf: Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to this thread; 'will address Rigoletto in a future post.


Thank you, Josefina. Looking forward to hearing a clip of Mr Nucci in his prime that will prove me wrong. 

I wonder if I've been way too dogmatic in saying that a singer who ends up singing as badly as Nucci in _that_ clip could never have been any good. I mean, it stands to reason that a great artist, with the seriousness and integrity that implies, would never wish to be heard in public wobbling and blustering like that- unless he was in financial dire straits or some other kind of extenuating circumstances. Yet human nature is more complicated than that, and there is a whole other thread about when singers should retire and why those who arguably should, often don't. I set about looking for examples of singers who turned in awful performances when vocally past their best, and whose refusal to relinquish the stage couldn't necessarily be explained by a shameless lack of taste traceable even in the recordings of their prime. I thought of a Youtube clip I'd seen of Gilbert Py singing Otello in his sixties- here was a once very good Adoniram and Don José who developed an appalling wobble yet carried on regardless:






Even so, I think I prefer him, wobble and all, to the Nucci of that 2006 'Cortigiani'. After all, a wobble- Py's, Nucci's or anyone else's- is presumably involuntary, whereas shouting rather than singing as Nucci does is presumably a choice, albeit one constrained by vocal difficulties. It's not something one hears pre-verismo singers do: think of Leon Melchissedec's recording of Rigoletto's 'O mes maîtres' where his loss of range and power is evident, but, as we expect from a singer of that generation, he always _sings_ rather than shouts, and phrases with elegance. (No wobble, either.) The problem is that decadent verismo style, by misguidedly allowing extra-musical vocal effects for dramatic purposes, thereby opened the door for those same effects (ugly enough in any case) to be used as a crutch by elderly singers glad to be able to spare themselves at least some of the effort of singing a difficult role by the expedient of shouting certain passages instead. This is what I suspect is happening in the Nucci clip: unavoidable deterioration combined with presumably avoidable vulgarity. Then there's the whole grey area of whether a wobble is _truly_ unavoidable for many singers in old age, or whether it is an occupational hazard of singing for any length of time with the ugly wide vibrato used by modern singers: the prevalence of wobbles today, not necessarily in singers who are elderly, persuades me that it's probably so.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

JosefinaHW said:


> If not Nucci, in the Verdi opera world of the the 1970's through 2006, whom do you consider the best (Italian) opera baritones, particularly in the role of Macbeth (and now adding Rigoletto)?
> 
> :Bellinilover: :BaritoneA: Please state your preferred MacBeth's and Rigoletto's from the following list:
> (Sherrill Milnes, Renato Bruson, Vladmir Chernov, and Giorgio Zancanero, Robert Merrill, Thomas Allen, Simon Keenlyside, Lawrence Tibbett, Quinn Kelsey, Peter Mattei, Giuseppe De Luca)
> ...


I respectfully disagree with Hvorotovskys placement. His is not a true verdian/dramatic baritone voice, but rather (like his cohort Thomas Hampson) a pushed-up lyric voice that excels on notes that sits extremely high in the baritone voice. Some of his lyric stuff like his Onegin, Figaro, Germont.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Is Nucci still actively performing? If so, he's just about the last Italian baritone of note -- having inherited that title after the passing of Cappuccilli and the retirement of the great and underrated Zancanaro. I don't enjoy the voice, but I do respect it.

Nucci has the bad fortune, I think, of coming along at the tail end of an extraordinary crop of baritones who were active in the 1980s: Milnes, Cappuccilli, Zancanaro, Bruson, etc. (The only reason you only heard Milnes all the time at the Met is because the Met couldn't afford the Italians... of course, Milnes was also quality, not to denigrate him, just saying one of the reasons why you didn't get the whole contemporary picture from the Met...) I would put some of these guys up against Gobbi and Merrill and Warren any day. 

Chernov came along a little later, and his career did not last as long.

There are NO baritones these days with anywhere near the power, style and clarity of even these 1970s and 80s baritones. The only one whose voice I actually enjoy against those prior standards, is Zeljko Lucic (in certain roles).


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> If not Nucci, in the Verdi opera world of the the 1970's through 2006, whom do you consider the best (Italian) opera baritones, particularly in the role of Macbeth (and now adding Rigoletto)?
> 
> :Bellinilover: :BaritoneA: Please state your preferred MacBeth's and Rigoletto's from the following list:
> (Sherrill Milnes, Renato Bruson, Vladmir Chernov, and Giorgio Zancanero, Robert Merrill, Thomas Allen, Simon Keenlyside, Lawrence Tibbett, Quinn Kelsey, Peter Mattei, Giuseppe De Luca)
> ...


Josefina, thanks for your response. I can't really say who _the best_ is, but _my favorite_ (recorded) Rigoletto is Sherrill Milnes, hands down. I own both of his complete recordings of the opera, and I think Rigoletto was a part that suited his voice and emotional makeup perfectly. As for Macbeth, again I like Milnes a lot, but I also think Keenlyside did a fine "smaller scale" Macbeth at Covent Garden, which you can see on DVD. As MACBETH is an opera that has only really become popular in the last 50 years or so, we don't have recordings of the title role by older baritones like De Luca or Tibbett -- which is unfortunate, because surely Tibbett if not De Luca would have acted and sung it extremely well.

Edited to add: If you want to know about baritones _of Italian descent_ then I'm not the best person to ask, because for whatever reason I tend to prefer American or British baritones, generally (don't ask me why). Lastly, if you want to see a baritone whom I feel is at least as great an actor as Nucci, then you should watch Thomas Allen. You can see him in several roles on DVD, and to my mind he's one of the finest operatic actors ever.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> Is Nucci still actively performing? If so, he's just about the last Italian baritone of note -- having inherited that title after the passing of Cappuccilli and the retirement of the great and underrated Zancanaro. I don't enjoy the voice, but I do respect it.
> 
> Nucci has the bad fortune, I think, of coming along at the tail end of an extraordinary crop of baritones who were active in the 1980s: Milnes, Cappuccilli, Zancanaro, Bruson, etc. (The only reason you only heard Milnes all the time at the Met is because the Met couldn't afford the Italians... of course, Milnes was also quality, not to denigrate him, just saying one of the reasons why you didn't get the whole contemporary picture from the Met...) I would put some of these guys up against Gobbi and Merrill and Warren any day.
> 
> ...


True, there seems to be a shortage of "Verdi baritones" today. I'm not old enough actually to remember most of the singers you mention, but currently I'm very fond of Quinn Kelsey. His voice is beautiful; I don't know how powerful it is, because I've never heard him live, but I simply love his timbre.

One current/recent singer I _did_ hear live (as Falstaff) and liked very much was Mark Delevan. His voice was exceptionally robust. However, rather than specializing in Verdi he ended up going more into the dramatic bass-baritone repertoire (Dutchman, etc.).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Josefina, thanks for your response. I can't really say who _the best_ is, but _my favorite_ (recorded) Rigoletto is Sherrill Milnes, hands down. I own both of his complete recordings of the opera, and I think Rigoletto was a part that suited his voice and emotional makeup perfectly. As for Macbeth, again I like Milnes a lot, but I also think Keenlyside did a fine "smaller scale" Macbeth at Covent Garden, which you can see on DVD. As MACBETH is an opera that has only really become popular in the last 50 years or so, we don't have recordings of the title role by older baritones like De Luca or Tibbett -- which is unfortunate, because surely Tibbett if not De Luca would have acted and sung it extremely well.
> 
> Edited to add: If you want to know about baritones _of Italian descent_ then I'm not the best person to ask, because for whatever reason I tend to prefer American or British baritones, generally (don't ask me why). Lastly, if you want to see a baritone whom I feel is at least as great an actor as Nucci, then you should watch Thomas Allen. You can see him in several roles on DVD, and to my mind he's one of the finest operatic actors ever.


The best Rigoletto ever, speciality the Decca recording as his voice bland better with Pavarotti and Dam Joan Sutherland .
And I do like Mrs Sills a lot


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A superb baritone I just discovered recently is Nicolae Herlea. Cleanse your ears of shouts and wobbles:






Singing like that evokes the likes of Amato and Stracciari.











If you haven't explored those two baritones extraordinaires, do it now.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Must confess what I've heard of Nucci is not impressive. Whether the roles came too late for him I don't know. As the soldier in The Elixier of Love DVD he looks far too old for the part though he sings quite well. But in Pavarotti's Otello he really does sound pretty dire, which is a pity as the intentions are there. 
If we are talkng great baritones how come Gobbi hasn't been mentioned (or have I missed something) who was the greatest vocal actor of his age?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> A superb baritone I just discovered recently is Nicolae Herlea. Cleanse your ears of shouts and wobbles:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:Woodduck: I am listening repeatedly to the Herlea; a wonderful new discovery indeed. It is very unfortunate that "we" just discovered him two years after his death, but maybe someone will remaster and re-release his recordings.

As to the Amato and Stracciari, I do not understand what you like about their voices, it would be very helpful to the development of my ear if you would discuss what exactly you like about their voices and those particular performances. TYVM


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> :Woodduck: I am listening repeatedly to the Herlea; a wonderful new discovery indeed. It is very unfortunate that "we" just discovered him two years after his death, but maybe someone will remaster and re-release his recordings.
> 
> *As to the Amato and Stracciari, I do not understand what you like about their voices, it would be very helpful to the development of my ear if you would discuss what exactly you like about their voices and those particular performances. * TYVM


Firstly, I must apologise for the ill-tempered tone of my first post on this thread. I've had stuff weighing on my mind recently which has cast a kind of pessimistic pall over everything, and there's no justification for taking it out on people here.

Regarding Stracciari, I'm sure Woodduck will be able to explain his appeal as well as anything so subjective as the appeal of a particular voice can be explained- but I did happen to see this video on youtube a while ago which pits modern singing versus 'old school' (i.e. early to mid twentieth century) singing. What struck me is that the relative technical security of the 'old school' is evident even if you don't happen to like all or any of the singers concerned. Stracciari and Pertile (who is very good here) are two singers whose timbres I never liked and who I would not_ in general_ consider exemplars of style, yet they illustrate the video's point just as well as any singer I would personally have chosen. It's too bad Leo Nucci isn't here because then it would be more 'on topic': the modern baritone pitted against Stracciari is one Mr Gavazzeni, whose admittedly dullish timbre is not especially displeasing IMO but who comes in for one heck of a roasting in the comments section! Stracciari is at approximately 22:30 but the whole thing is worth a listen for those with a bit of time to spare.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> The best Rigoletto ever, speciality the Decca recording as his voice bland better with Pavarotti and Dam Joan Sutherland .
> And I do like Mrs Sills a lot


As an overall recording I too prefer the Decca. Sills was past her prime on the later recording, yet some of her old vocal beauty still shines through. It's too bad she couldn't have recorded Gilda ten years earlier, though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> :Woodduck: I am listening repeatedly to the Herlea; a wonderful new discovery indeed. It is very unfortunate that "we" just discovered him two years after his death, but maybe someone will remaster and re-release his recordings.
> 
> As to the Amato and Stracciari, I do not understand what you like about their voices, *it would be very helpful to the development of my ear if you would discuss what exactly you like about their voices and those particular performances*. TYVM


The short answer would be "everything." Everything, except the primitive recorded sound, which naturally mutes the resonance of the voices, but lets us hear enough to know that we're listening to well-nigh flawless singing.

Those are voices that are freely, vibrantly produced, powerfully resonant, without the least strain or inconsistency, and are capable of great flexibility of movement and control of dynamics. Such freedom and control give a singer expressive options that a more rigidly produced voice lacks. I don't know of a performance of this aria which exhibits these virtues as stunningly as Amato's. His is also my favorite rendition of "Eri tu" from _Un Ballo in Maschera:_






Notice the quick, consistent vibrato that brings the tone to life (unlike an intrusive "wobble"), the easy dynamic shading, the intensity of legato and portamento, the flexibility of rhythm and tempo, and the variation in vocal color from open and brilliant to dark and "covered," all employed to great expressive effect. Very few baritones have come close to this standard of singing in the century since, and I think this is a matter partly of style and partly of training.

I realize that some people just can't listen past or through the muffled sound quality of these ancient recordings. It takes some experience with them, some imagination, and preferably some knowledge of how the human voice works and what are the signs that it's working well. It's worth remembering that these old recordings provide no acoustic around the voice and no enveloping wash of orchestral sound: any flaw in the singing will be mercilessly exposed.

Preferences in voices are of course matters of taste, but fine singing has objective parameters that one can learn to recognize. I love Stracciari's sound; Figleaf has said she doesn't care for it - but I think we agree that he was a superbly accomplished singer. The more singers we listen to with the above criteria in mind, the more we come to recognize when those singers are meeting those criteria adequately, and the more we're apt to be amazed and moved when truly great singing comes our way.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I am just returning to this thread now; I have done a first read of all the posts but not watched (or re-watched) the YouTube videos. I don't want to leave any delay in expressing my very deep thanks to...

:FigLeaf: and
:Woodduck: for your detailed posts. Since approx. post #7 I've been watching many voice instruction videos, particularly re/ vibrato; articles about vibrato; portamento as related to singing ; etc., etc., I thought I was going to have to sit down at the piano with a voice instructor and have him/her demonstrate a great deal of all this before I would have enough of a sense to how to approach it in the most productive manner. I still might arrange such sessions, but both of your posts have given me that marvelous foundation and outline of how to start my study of the (Italian ) opera voice. I hope that in the lack of articulateness I have still managed to convey my sincere gratitude.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> As an overall recording I too prefer the Decca. Sills was past her prime on the later recording, yet some of her old vocal beauty still shines through. It's too bad she couldn't have recorded Gilda ten years earlier, though.


All three main singers should have been 10 years younger , however we have a stylish Krauss on the Moffo recording.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Firstly, I must apologise for the ill-tempered tone of my first post on this thread. I've had stuff weighing on my mind recently which has cast a kind of pessimistic pall over everything, and there's no justification for taking it out on people here.
> 
> Regarding Stracciari, I'm sure Woodduck will be able to explain his appeal as well as anything so subjective as the appeal of a particular voice can be explained- but I did happen to see this video on youtube a while ago which pits modern singing versus 'old school' (i.e. early to mid twentieth century) singing. What struck me is that the relative technical security of the 'old school' is evident even if you don't happen to like all or any of the singers concerned. Stracciari and Pertile (who is very good here) are two singers whose timbres I never liked and who I would not_ in general_ consider exemplars of style, yet they illustrate the video's point just as well as any singer I would personally have chosen. It's too bad Leo Nucci isn't here because then it would be more 'on topic': the modern baritone pitted against Stracciari is one Mr Gavazzeni, whose admittedly dullish timbre is not especially displeasing IMO but who comes in for one heck of a roasting in the comments section! Stracciari is at approximately 22:30 but the whole thing is worth a listen for those with a bit of time to spare.


This was a good idea but I find it rather sloppily done. Pitting a recent singer against an older singer (sometimes not very much older; is Birgit Nilsson old-style?) doesn't necessarily tell us anything about earlier singing styles, and I find these choices inconsistent in this respect. For some of us, you have to go back to the 40s and farther to hear singing which, technically and stylistically, is distinctly redolent of a former age. And of course there was once more stylistic diversity, in the form of national traditions, than there is now (actually its hard to find any at all nowadays). That said, how can you not be struck by the contrast between that wobbler of a _Turandot_ who starts things off and the amazing focus and clarity of Gina Cigna back in 1938? Find me a Turandot like that from the last 40 years! On the other hand, what is Mario Filippeschi doing here at all? And in three selections! Where were Ponselle or Rethberg or Gadski as Aida? Antonio Salvarezza was a thrilling surprise as Calaf - where are the dramatic tenors now? - but Roberto Alagna hardly represents an Otello of any period (he should have his pretty head examined); Zanelli simply blows him to oblivion. The modern Lohengrin is similarly a pipsqueak, with Volker leaving him swanless and drowning in the Scheldt. Jonas Kaufmann is certainly not at his best as Faust, and maybe it's unfair to pit him against Bjorling, a tenor who brought old-style technique into the modern era. The comparisons don't always favor the older singers; I'll take Juan Diego Florez over either of his competitors. Stracciari? As Rosa Ponselle said, "Now _that's_ a baritone!" The modern Siegfried? The less said the better. The Wotan of Hans Reinmar, a singer new to me, outdoes Rene Pape's.

And so, a mixed bag, but still interesting.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Resuming with my response to the posts I have read carefully thus far...

:Figleaf: Thank you for your concern about staying on topic. No, *this* woman is *not* fickle  (although I certainly do reserve the right to change my opinions); and my enthusiasm for Nucci has not waned. Our discussion and listening to other baritones (and pushed-up lyric voices--I don't understand what that really means yet); talking about voice training and technical skills, etc., IMO all relates to trying to understand the quality of Leo Nucci's performances. (In light of the two most recent posts, I think the expansion of the thread to discuss what makes any baritone (any Italian opera singer?) good is more important than the OP. *Most* importantly I think some good venting of frustration and anger, and a few rude remarks here and there are appropriate here--we're talking about Italian Opera, Sconsigliata!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Resuming with my response to the posts I have read carefully thus far...
> 
> :Figleaf: Thank you for your concern about staying on topic. No, *this* woman is *not* fickle  (although I certainly do reserve the right to change my opinions); and my enthusiasm for Nucci has not waned. Our discussion and listening to other baritones (and pushed-up lyric voices--I don't understand what that really means yet); talking about voice training and technical skills, etc., IMO all relates to trying to understand the quality of Leo Nucci's performances. (In light of the two most recent posts, I think the expansion of the thread to discuss what makes any baritone (any Italian opera singer?) good is more important than the OP. *Most* importantly I think some good venting of frustration and anger, and a few rude remarks here and there are appropriate here--we're talking about Italian Opera, Sconsigliata!


You have a great heart you. :clap:


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

The next thing I would like to share is the complete score of _Cortigiani, vil razza dannata _.

I apologize for the delay in posting this. The file of the version that I wanted to post here is corrupted or was scanned improperly and I spent hours fighting with it. I also had to create a special account with Adobe to enable you all to go directly to the document, as opposed to following several additional steps. _You don't have to worry about any security issues with the link that I have posted below.

In this score, this aria is included in Act II (??). When you open the document, go to page 63 of the PDF--that is page 255 of the score, where Cortigiani begins:

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/14411e55-f92f-4c9c-b1b5-9734a413e3a4_


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> The next thing I would like to share is the complete score of _Cortigiani, vil razza dannata _.
> 
> I apologize for the delay in posting this. The file of the version that I wanted to post here is corrupted or was scanned improperly and I spent hours fighting with it. I also had to create a special account with Adobe to enable you all to go directly to the document, as opposed to following several additional steps. _You don't have to worry about any security issues with the link that I have posted below.
> 
> ...


_

This link doesn't work Josefina _


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Pugg said:


> This link doesn't work Josefina


It works now, Pugg. Long story made short... the link I first posted didn't work anymore, you must have read the post right before as I was editing, it's fixed now.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

JosefinaHW said:


> The next thing I would like to share is the complete score of _Cortigiani, vil razza dannata _.
> 
> I apologize for the delay in posting this. The file of the version that I wanted to post here is corrupted or was scanned improperly and I spent hours fighting with it. I also had to create a special account with Adobe to enable you all to go directly to the document, as opposed to following several additional steps. _You don't have to worry about any security issues with the link that I have posted below.
> 
> ...


_

Edit: Had to change pg number of the piece; I tripled checked all this information, so I don't understand why it changed, but...._


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I want to share an article that discusses the perceptual aspects of vibrato of the voice. This section of the article entitled _Acoustic and *Psychoacoustic Aspects of Vocal Vibrato*_ begins on pg. 15 of the PDF; pg. 57 as printed in the article at the bottom right hand side of the page.

http://www.speech.kth.se/prod/publications/files/qpsr/1994/1994_35_2-3_045-068.pdf

The author raises some interesting questions whose answers might seem contrary to our common sense. For example, since the fundamental pitch varies in vibrato, is the pitch we hear from a vibrato tone as accurately and precisely perceived as the pitch perceived from vibrato-free tones. Common sense might make one say that it isn't as accurately and precisely perceived, therefore thinking that a singer could use vibrato as a crutch/means to hide potential pitch inaccuracies, but from replicated studies he demonstrates that this is not the case.

I'd also like to paste below part of the article on vocal portamento from Wikipedia. Yes, I take Wiki articles with several grains of salt, too, but I think it might be of interest in this thread because it discusses that in Italian voice training texts of the late 1800's, there were completely opposing opinions on whether a slur was considered to involve a "slide" (my word, used by someone in a post in this thread) or a clean passage of notes.... if this is true then I'm not sure that one could say that a singer is using bad technique by performing one way or the other, it would be a matter of which "school of thought" he was trained in, possibly. The Wiki article ends with a paragraph that seems to contradict the previous paragraphs, so I'm not sure if I have understood the article perfectly. If you are interested enough to read it, please let me know if I have or have not understood it correctly because it directly impacts how I/we should read a Verdi vocal score.

This is the link to the full article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portamento

This is the excerpt:

"Opinions of vocal portamento

In the performance of Italian bel canto music, the concept of the musical slur and that of the true portamento have not always been held to mean the same thing. This is explained simply by Nicola Vaccai in his _Practical Method of Italian Singing_, originally published 1832, whose opinion in the matter holds some authority. In the sense described by Vaccai, the portamento is not a slur but an ornamental accentuation of the legato linking two distinct notes, without any slide or glide through the intervening notes. In his own opening statements forming the preface to his Lesson XIII, "Modo per portare la voce" (method to carry the voice), Vaccai states: "By carrying the voice from one note to another, it is not meant that you should drag or drawl the voice through all the intermediate intervals, an abuse that is frequently committed-but it means, to 'unite' perfectly the one note with the other."

He goes on to describe and illustrate that where a consonant falls between the two notes to be ligatured in this way, the portamento is achieved either by "almost insensibly" anticipating the second note of a pair in the final moments of the vowel sound preceding it, or else by minutely deferring the "salto" or leap between the notes until the first moment of the vowel sound in the second note. He adds, "In phrases requiring much grace and expression, it produces a very good effect: the abuse of it, however, is to be carefully avoided, as it leads to mannerism and monotony."

However Manuel García (1805-1906), a singing pedagogue of immense renown, in his _New Compendious Treatise of the Art of Singing_, Part 1, Chapter VII, "On Vocalization or Agility (Agilità)", gave the opposite opinion. Writing of the means by which the voice is conducted from one note to another, he distinguished between "con portamento" (the gliding or slurring mode) and "legato" (simply the smooth mode of vocalization). "To slur is to conduct the voice from one note to another through all the intermediate sounds. ... This dragging of the notes will assist in equalizing the registers, timbres and power of the voice." He warned that learners should not acquire the bad habit of attacking a note with a slur, a prevailing fault in bad singers. As to "Smooth or Legato Vocalization (Agilità legata e granita)", it means "to pass from one sound to another in a neat, sudden, and smooth manner, without interrupting the flow of voice; yet not allowing it to drag or slur over any intermediate sound ... as with the slurred sounds, the air must be subjected to a regular and continuous pressure, so as intimately to unite all the notes with each other."

There was therefore a difference of opinion between these two very distinguished singing masters of the nineteenth century as to the meaning of portamento, and its relation to the legato and the musical slur. It reflected not merely a distinction of terminology but divergent understandings of a fundamental aspect of singing technique. It should also be borne in mind that a curving line or phrase-mark (similar to a slur mark) is the usual way, in vocal notation, of indicating to the singer that the vowel sound of a word should be carried over or ligatured upon two or more consecutive notes (as in a roulade), and that in such usage legato and not slurring is always intended unless the slur is specifically indicated."

_It is the following that seems contradictory to me based on the above:_

"Although portamento (in the sense of slurring) continued to be widely used in popular music, it was disapproved of for operatic singing by many critics in the 1920s and 1930s as a sign of either poor technique, or of bad taste, a mark of cheap sentimentalism or showiness. This is not valid criticism of a performer when portamento is explicitly specified in the score or is otherwise appropriate. However, when there is no such specification, the singer is expected to be able to move crisply from note to note without any slurring or 'scooping'".


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I am also posting the text from an article entitled_ The Fluctuating Fortunes of Vibrato_ from

www.operafanatic.com/fluctuating-fortunes-vibrato

*The Fluctuating Fortunes of Vibrato: Once Thought to Convey Emotion, Fast Vibrato Is Again Out of Fashion*

For most of the 20th century singers used less vibrato than in the 19th, when it became so popular as to provoke British critic Henry F. Chorley in 1862 to call it "that vice of young Italy, bad schooling, and false notions of effect."

The use of fast vibrato as a prominent aspect of each sung tone was pioneered by tenor Giovanni Battista Rubini, beginning around 1814. Before him singers reserved vibrato for special effects and moments of heightened emotion. At first, because of vibrato, Rubini was derided as a goat. He could not find employment as a recitalist or opera singer--not even as a chorister. Eventually by virtue of a masterful singing technique, unsurpassed musical sensitivity and a most magnetic vocal personality he became his age's preeminent singer, despite an objectionably small voice. Even Chorley had to concede that, with vibrato, Rubini produced "an effect of emotion not obtainable by any other means." His tones even came to be widely admired for their beauty.

By the mid-1820s other singers with pervasive vibratos had begun to make careers, Henriette Méric-Lalande becoming the first such star soprano. By the middle of the century Rubini vibrato was commonplace--in spite of critics' fulminations. Rossini, among many, deplored it. Still, Italian tenors, in particular, sported it: Enrico Tamberlick, Roberto Stagno, Fernando De Lucia and Italo Campanini, for example. George Bernard Shaw's epithet for Italian tenors was "Goatbleaters!" (Curiously, Campanini, in an unpublished letter, wrote of his rival Ernesto Nicolini, "His voice shakes as if with palsy.")

In this country as well as Britain critics and public have tended to think of this quiver as disfiguring. When De Lucia and soprano Celestina Boninsegna appeared here, in 1893-94 and 1906-07, respectively, critics called each a goat. Baritone Riccardo Stracciari was excoriated here for the same reason, in 1907. Virtually all Italian tenors who appeared here from the 80s to the First World War vibrated and in consequence didn't become really popular, even those with illustrious careers in Europe, such as Campanini and Stagno. When the adulated Jean de Reszke on occasion lapsed into such a vibrato at the Met, even he was scourged.

Enrico Caruso was found refreshing when he made his Met debut, in 1903, because, so critic W.J. Henderson noted, his voice was "without the typical Italian bleat." (Henderson once wrote, "To make the voice quiver with imminent tears all the time is ridiculous.") Although Caruso's vibrato on his early records does seem moderate when compared to other Italian tenors then, it is faster, narrower and more flutterlike than on records he made 15 or so years later, where it is comparatively slow and wide.

The fortunes of Aureliano Pertile and Giovanni Martinelli exemplify a difference between Italian and American taste of the past. Both tenors were born in Montagnana, Italy, in 1885, both were impassioned. Pertile was received coolly here, in 1921-22, perhaps because of his "bleaty" vibrato-laden tone. Martinelli, a Met stalwart for decades, had almost no audible vibrato. When he returned to Italy in 1929 he was crucified for having la voce fissa, a tight or constricted tone with insufficient vibrato.

Since W. W. II few Latin singers have had prominent vibratos, with the exception of throwbacks such as tenor Salvatore Fisichella, indifferently received at his Met debut, in 1986, and tenor Bruno Beccaria, whose vibrato is reminiscent of Pertile's. In the late 50s Franco Corelli, who had begun his career with a prominent vibrato, eliminated it, regarding it as a flaw--a sign of the times. Magda Olivero, a heavy vibratoer in the 30s, used comparatively straight tones after 1950.

With some exceptions Afro-American singers have a different kind of vibrato, slower and wider. Marian Anderson and Leontyne Price are examples. To study vibrato, it's helpful to play tapes at half speed.

To serve music vibrato's width and rapidity must be capable of variation. For me the main objection to omnipresent vibrato is that pitch fluctuations interfere with resolutions of dissonances and other moments of harmonic repose. In florid music vibrato, moreover, creates ambiguities of pitch. Still, the allure of Conchita Supervia does seem to stem in part from vibrato.

Although the British dislike vibrato in singing, old-time Oxford philosophy dons were given to talking with voices aquiver with emotion. As a graduate student I heard one such deliver a highly abstract and rigorous lecture on truth theory in a manner worthy of Pertile. On early records and sound films a number of orators, politicians and actors also speak with vibrato, as did Evans and Gielgud in Shakespeare.

--Stefan Zucker


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Now I am logging off and I won't have the time to write (and possibly not read) anything here on TC until the wee hours of Saturday morning.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JosefinaHW said:


> Now I am logging off and I won't have the time to write (and possibly not read) anything here on TC until the wee hours of Saturday morning.


That will give me time to put a few thoughts together on the subjects of portamento and vibrato. I'm thinking that starting a separate thread(s) on aspects of vocal technique might be better than continuing to ignore Signor Nucci.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> The short answer would be "everything." Everything, except the primitive recorded sound, which naturally mutes the resonance of the voices, but lets us hear enough to know that we're listening to well-nigh flawless singing.
> 
> Those are voices that are freely, vibrantly produced, powerfully resonant, without the least strain or inconsistency, and are capable of great flexibility of movement and control of dynamics. Such freedom and control give a singer expressive options that a more rigidly produced voice lacks.* I don't know of a performance of this aria which exhibits these virtues as stunningly as Amato's. His is also my favorite rendition of "Eri tu" from Un Ballo in Maschera:
> 
> ...


Duck do you like the more dramatic singing style from the same period of baritone Titta Ruffo........


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Eri Tu by Richard Bonelli,

www.youtube.com/watch?v=inqzvxel7AQ


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Eri Tu by Richard Bonelli,
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=inqzvxel7AQ


Bonelli was a nice discovery for me a couple of years ago. I don't know why his name doesn't come up more often.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Duck do you like the more dramatic singing style from the same period of baritone Titta Ruffo........


Ruffo was a natural phenomenon who considered himself largely self-taught and said that he couldn't teach singing to anyone because he "never knew how to sing." He considered this the reason that he was past his prime before he was 50, which makes one wonder what excuse a lot of other singers have! His dark timbre and enormous roar aren't really to my taste, but he represented well the "new style" of singing that was beginning to replace the more refined style of older baritones such as Battistini. Apparently he didn't sing often with Caruso, but they made this thrilling recording of the "vengeance" duet from _Otello:_






Caruso, who never sang the role of Otello, is a little off-pitch at one point, and this may be why the singers didn't allow the release of the recording, but it's nevertheless a classic now. Apparently the Met scheduled them to do _Otello_ together with Ponselle in 1923 (one can only dream), but Caruso's death intervened.

Since I've mentioned Battistini, here's his "Eri tu." He and Amato play with dynamics and rhythm in a way that Ruffo - and modern baritones - don't.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I have lost the count of how many times I have watched Mr. Nucci sing, in the last thirty-odd years. 

I do remember the last one, barely a couple of months ago, in "Luisa Miller".

Never been my cup of tea, but given the sad state of the fach, particularly for Italian opera, he probably will prolong his career until he will be one hundred years old.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

A baritone I heard for the first time a couple of days ago is Tassis Christoyannis. I haven't had time to listen to many of his operatic recordings, and I'm not saying that the following link is necessarily my dream Di Provenza, but it does make me more optimistic about the state of the Fach than a hundred year old Leo Nucci probably would :


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't have any precise terms for Zancanaro's "Eri tu," only that it is badass.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

I've had several talks with former voice teachers and they state that a pure Verdi Baritone could sing the higher bass-baritone repertory but would have to work for it. I often see myself being compared as a much younger "Sherrill Milnes" and "Cornell Macneil" though honestly, I don't agree. What I can say is that those two had such a robust yet the sound was never dry nor did they ever sound woofy singing certain repertory (Milnes in Rigoletto or Warren as Falstaff or even Count di Luna in Il Trovatore). I'm not sure if Warren did any bel canto repertory (outside of middle-late Verdian baritone roles) but if he did any, it'd be talked about more .

I know Milnes performed a favorite role of mine and that's Lord Enrico Ashton from Donizetti's "Lucia di Lammermoor" and the lyric-dramatic voice soars so much in that role, specifically the coloratura cabaletta of "La pietade in suo favore". Nucci is prety good in that role as well but this role is definitely suited for the more kavailer baritone voice and that is indeed Nucci's alright. Since both Milnes and Nucci had a touch of "Warrenitis," the complete sense to interlope high notes at the end of big numbers of their arias or finales (which Cornell Macneil was a supporter of as well), they were known for their extreme upper registers for a high baritone.

I don't know if I can seriously claim a currently baritone today that can actually bring justice to these roles and as much as I see Nucci needs to retire, once he does retire then what? The noblety that he had in those roles will go away and other baritones will make a mockery of those once sacred roles into something rather prudish.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

graziesignore said:


> I don't have any precise terms for Zancanaro's "Eri tu," only that it is badass.


For a lyric baritone, he had the comfortability to sing that role better than most dramatic/Verdian baritones even in that same era. I'm going to assume that's from the same gala event where Sherrill Milnes performed one of his last performances of the Il Prologo from Pagliacio.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I don't have any precise terms for Zancanaro's "Eri tu," only that it is badass.


My terms for it would be: vocally healthy but not interesting. More fierce than heartbroken. The sameness of volume and color and the rigid tempo and lack of portamento (emphasized by a lot of aspiration between notes) squeeze most of the sentiment out of it. Anonymous modern singing.

But what a fine, well-schooled voice! More consistent in its production than that of Milnes, whose pushed, distorted upper register seems to be forgiven (or isn't noticed) by his fans:






He does put a lot more imagination into it than Zancanaro, and if he had the technical consistency of an Amato or a Battistini - or a Zancanaro! - this would be a great performance.

I think people sometimes mistake vocal distress for expressiveness, and singers who know they have trouble with certain aspects of technique often try to disguise or compensate for their problems with extra dramatic effort. I admire Milnes' uninhibited effort here, though the voice is in trouble.

Too bad Zancanaro was largely ignored by the recording companies. Was Milnes _that_ much better looking (and on a recording who cares) ?


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

schigolch said:


> I have lost the count of how many times I have watched Mr. Nucci sing, in the last thirty-odd years.
> 
> I do remember the last one, barely a couple of months ago, in "Luisa Miller".
> 
> Never been my cup of tea, but given the sad state of the fach, particularly for Italian opera, he probably will prolong his career until he will be one hundred years old.


:schigolch: I've read many of the very positive Spanish reviews on Nucci's website; I see that he has performed there quite often. Given your time there what is your take on the reasons for Nucci's popularity in Spain? If I wanted to explore Spanish reviews/Spanish Opera Forums what would you suggest besides _El Pais_ and _ABC_?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, Mr. Nucci is a regular here, singing everywhere from Madrid and Barcelona, to Seville, Bilbao, Valencia, Vigo,... both in opera and concert.

He is indeed quite popular with many opera fans. Not so much with the critics, that are rather harsh with him, especially in these late years of his career.

As you are aware, Mr. Nucci is especially fond of singing encores in "Rigoletto", among other antics. When he does this, invariably most people got enthusiastic, thinking they are watching operatic history taking place in front of their eyes... 

The reasons for his popularity?. Well, I have discussed this quite a few times. Today, as I said in my post above, I think he is a kind of a legend, and also there are not a plethora of great baritones to be heard. And people are deaf to, or are willing to condone, his lack of fiato, his many problems to keep a steady singing line, his singing in forte almost all the time, what is by now an abuse of portamenti, his mannerisms on stage...

In better, younger days, I think he was a decent act. Maybe, with Renato Bruson that is his senior by a few years, the last one in a long line of great Italian baritones, going back to the beginning of the fach in the early decades of the 19th century.

I don't think I can share any links to Spanish opera forums here, as probably this would infringe the ToS. About newspapers, the two you just mentioned are the ones in which you can find more operatic content. There is a monthly opera magazine, "Opera Actual", that you can check to see if it can be of interest.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> There is a monthly opera magazine, "Opera Actual", that you can check to see if it can be of interest.












Nice to see all those stars from the past doing reasonable well .:tiphat:
Thank you


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> I've had several talks with former voice teachers and they state that a pure Verdi Baritone could sing the higher bass-baritone repertory but would have to work for it. I often see myself being compared as a much younger "Sherrill Milnes" and "Cornell Macneil" though honestly, I don't agree. What I can say is that those two had such a robust yet the sound was never dry nor did they ever sound woofy singing certain repertory (Milnes in Rigoletto or Warren as Falstaff or even Count di Luna in Il Trovatore). I'm not sure if Warren did any bel canto repertory (outside of middle-late Verdian baritone roles) but if he did any, it'd be talked about more .
> 
> I know Milnes performed a favorite role of mine and that's Lord Enrico Ashton from Donizetti's "Lucia di Lammermoor" and the lyric-dramatic voice soars so much in that role, specifically the coloratura cabaletta of "La pietade in suo favore". Nucci is prety good in that role as well but this role is definitely suited for the more kavailer baritone voice and that is indeed Nucci's alright. Since both Milnes and Nucci had a touch of "Warrenitis," the complete sense to interlope high notes at the end of big numbers of their arias or finales (which Cornell Macneil was a supporter of as well), they were known for their extreme upper registers for a high baritone.
> 
> I don't know if I can seriously claim a currently baritone today that can actually bring justice to these roles and as much as I see Nucci needs to retire, once he does retire then what? The noblety that he had in those roles will go away and other baritones will make a mockery of those once sacred roles into something rather prudish.


Interesting. But I always sort of thought Nucci was trying to emulate not Leonard Warren but the "classic Italian lyric baritones" who sang Verdi -- Giuseppe De Luca, for example. Personally, I don't think Nucci was very successful at this, but the impression I get is that his fans feel he has been the continuation of that kind of singing.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> Interesting. But I always sort of thought Nucci was trying to emulate not Leonard Warren but the "classic Italian lyric baritones" who sang Verdi -- Giuseppe De Luca, for example. Personally, I don't think Nucci was very successful at this, but the impression I get is that his fans feel he has been the continuation of that kind of singing.


"Bellinilover: Thank you! (I've just logged on after only a few hours and I've only got 759 unread posts.......  ), but it is VERY CLEAR that Nucci thinks he is THE ONLY REMAINING disciple of a grand tradition--from the articles and interviews I've read and seen he has not thus far said a particular name (as I remember). He also repeatedly says he is strictly following Verdi's directions and intentions. Being new to this I don't know his source of those directions and intentions--i.e., the singers you mention; his teacher Giuseppe Marchese--who I have not looked into at all yet; and the vocal score.

As soon as I can figure out how to do it--if I post the approx 30 measures of the score to "pieta, rispeto, amore (or some have said honore--another entire discussion) in two-three line sections--would you and others be open to follow a performance video and see how close Nucci is following the score--and thus evaluate Nucci's singing/performance as deserving of respect because of his adherence to Verdi?

I started to hint at this earlier in the thread, if my reading/understanding at that point is off the wall, don't hesitate to say it.... I'm in learning mode...  again I am way behind in reading the posts here.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

This is what I wrote in post #10---I haven't even re-read it today, I just want to get it out there again. I will post the easier link to the score in a few minutes:

"Do you think it was the case that Nucci was restraining his vocal abilities, particularly the use of limited legato and refraining from the long holding of notes because he was a performer who followed a very close reading of the score?

The following is a link to the MacBeth vocal score. Download the file. Then _Pieta, rispeta_… begins on p. 227 of the PDF (p 225 of the printed score).

https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/6b072494-c5a2-4847-8cc2-ac08b183d80d

Nucci compared to Hvor, Hobson and Milnes seems to be holding the notes closest to their scored values, he takes the noted rests, consistently performs staccato where it is noted, and holds the fermata close to twice the value of the notes. To my ear, this makes a much less attractive sound but it is how the score is written (unless Verdi is saying that con expressione means you can override any of the above aspects of the piece). It seems that Nucci is very capable of producing that beautiful legato, extended sound as I hear in the final line of this aria-sort of him saying, I could have done this all the way through, but that's not how Verdi composed it.

This is the Nucci film performance I am talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=curV...X1V1pe&index=4

Begin at 1:59:25.

Along the very same line, is Nucci's strict following of the score/staccato, limited note values part of his interpretation of the character of MacBeth…. In his YouTube performance of the film MacBeth, MacBeth is an active character-he's not a complete coward/frozen in self-doubt/inanimate: he gets up, takes the sword, un-barricades the door….?

Again, I don't know what is going on in Rigoletto yet, and if I have made any factual errors in this thread please correct me--that has nothing to do with posting style."


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

I JUST added the quick link to the score, so you might want to refresh your screen to see the edited posts. TY

:Bellinilover: 'so glad you decided no to "drop out" of this thread! :lol:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

JosefinaHW said:


> "Bellinilover: Thank you! (I've just logged on after only a few hours and I've only got 759 unread posts.......  ), but it is VERY CLEAR that Nucci thinks he is THE ONLY REMAINING disciple of a grand tradition--from the articles and interviews I've read and seen he has not thus far said a particular name (as I remember). He also repeatedly says he is strictly following Verdi's directions and intentions. Being new to this I don't know his source of those directions and intentions--i.e., the singers you mention; his teacher Giuseppe Marchese--who I have not looked into at all yet; and the vocal score.
> 
> As soon as I can figure out how to do it--if I post the approx 30 measures of the score to "pieta, rispeto, amore (or some have said honore--another entire discussion) in two-three line sections--would you and others be open to follow a performance video and see how close Nucci is following the score--and thus evaluate Nucci's singing/performance as deserving of respect because of his adherence to Verdi?
> 
> I started to hint at this earlier in the thread, if my reading/understanding at that point is off the wall, don't hesitate to say it.... I'm in learning mode...  again I am way behind in reading the posts here.


I'll have to let others comment on how closely Nucci is following the score -- because, unfortunately, I don't read music.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> I'll have to let others comment on how closely Nucci is following the score -- because, unfortunately, I don't read music.


:Bellinilover: I've now met several people here on TC who say they can't read music, but to me they have a profound sense of the music and what performance is "good or bad". '*just for your sake*.... follow the score with the performance, I bet that you will be able to read that score.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> My terms for it would be: vocally healthy but not interesting. More fierce than heartbroken. The sameness of volume and color and the rigid tempo and lack of portamento (emphasized by a lot of aspiration between notes) squeeze most of the sentiment out of it. Anonymous modern singing.
> 
> But what a fine, well-schooled voice! More consistent in its production than that of Milnes, whose pushed, distorted upper register seems to be forgiven (or isn't noticed) by his fans:
> 
> ...


Perhaps Zancanero had a more rounded vocal distribution and his tonal center was more secure but he lacked steady low notes and some of the upper notes of the baritone voice, sounded forced. Milnes had the better high notes, more vocal colors, and a vast of emotions on his side when singing the main Verdian baritone roles. He was selected because of this and not for his looks (an abjsrd assumption).


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

1.
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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

2.

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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

3.

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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

5.

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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, "Pieta, Rispetto y Amore" _MacBeth

7 of 7.

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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Verdi, _MacBeth_ Film Version, 1986/1987, director: Claude d'Anna

MacBeth: Leo Nucci
Lady MacBeth: Shirley Verrett (recently discussed in the _Soprano Assoluta_ Thread

http://www.talkclassical.com/44122-soprano-assoluta-its-place-3.html )

_Pieta, Rispetto y Amore_ begins at 2:01:07. If you would like to listen to Shirley Verrett sing _Una Macchia_.... begin at 1:52:05


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

We left off a part of this discussion of the quality of Leo Nucci's performance of the aria _Pieta, Rispetto y Amore_ agreeing that "Nucci was trying to emulate ... the classic Italian lyric baritones" (Post #49) and/or that he believed he was a strict interpreter of Verdi's score and understanding of the libretto.

For the moment I would like to focus only on comparing his performance (YouTube link in Post #63) to the score.

As I stated in Post#51, "Nucci compared to Hvor, Hobson and Milnes seems to be holding the notes closest to their scored values, he takes the noted rests, consistently performs staccato where it is noted, and holds the fermata close to twice the value of the notes. To my ear, this makes a much less attractive sound but it is how the score is written (unless Verdi is saying that _con expressione_ means you can override any of the above aspects of the piece). It seems that Nucci is very capable of producing that beautiful legato, extended sound as I hear in the final line of this aria-sort of him saying, I could have done this all the way through, but that's not how Verdi composed it."

Additional reading following Post #51 revealed that in 19th century Italy there were completely contrary opinions on how portamento should be notated and performed. _continued in next post_


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

From Post#32:

According to the Wikipedia article on Vocal Portamento, in Italian voice training texts of the late 1800's, there were completely opposing opinions on whether portamento and the symbol for the slur were considered to involve a "slide" (my word, used by someone in a post in this thread) or a distinct passage from one note to another.... if this is true then I'm not sure that one could say that a singer is using bad technique by performing one way or the other, it would be a matter of which "school of thought" he was trained in, possibly.

This is the link to the full article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portamento

The following is an excerpt from the article:

*Opinions of vocal portamento*

In the performance of Italian bel canto music, the concept of the musical slur and that of the true portamento have not always been held to mean the same thing. This is explained simply by Nicola Vaccai in his _Practical Method of Italian Singing, originally published 1832, whose opinion in the matter holds some authority. In the sense described by Vaccai, the portamento is not a slur but an ornamental accentuation of the legato linking two distinct notes, without any slide or glide through the intervening notes. In his own opening statements forming the preface to his Lesson XIII, "Modo per portare la voce" (method to carry the voice), Vaccai states: "By carrying the voice from one note to another, it is not meant that you should drag or drawl the voice through all the intermediate intervals, an abuse that is frequently committed-but it means, to 'unite' perfectly the one note with the other."

He goes on to describe and illustrate that where a consonant falls between the two notes to be ligatured in this way, the portamento is achieved either by "almost insensibly" anticipating the second note of a pair in the final moments of the vowel sound preceding it, or else by minutely deferring the "salto" or leap between the notes until the first moment of the vowel sound in the second note. He adds, "In phrases requiring much grace and expression, it produces a very good effect: the abuse of it, however, is to be carefully avoided, as it leads to mannerism and monotony."

However Manuel García (1805-1906), a singing pedagogue of immense renown, in his New Compendious Treatise of the Art of Singing, Part 1, Chapter VII, "On Vocalization or Agility (Agilità)", gave the opposite opinion. Writing of the means by which the voice is conducted from one note to another, he distinguished between "con portamento" (the gliding or slurring mode) and "legato" (simply the smooth mode of vocalization). "To slur is to conduct the voice from one note to another through all the intermediate sounds. ... This dragging of the notes will assist in equalizing the registers, timbres and power of the voice." He warned that learners should not acquire the bad habit of attacking a note with a slur, a prevailing fault in bad singers. As to "Smooth or Legato Vocalization (Agilità legata e granita)", it means "to pass from one sound to another in a neat, sudden, and smooth manner, without interrupting the flow of voice; yet not allowing it to drag or slur over any intermediate sound ... as with the slurred sounds, the air must be subjected to a regular and continuous pressure, so as intimately to unite all the notes with each other."

There was therefore a difference of opinion between these two very distinguished singing masters of the nineteenth century as to the meaning of portamento, and its relation to the legato and the musical slur. It reflected not merely a distinction of terminology but divergent understandings of a fundamental aspect of singing technique. It should also be borne in mind that a curving line or phrase-mark (similar to a slur mark) is the usual way, in vocal notation, of indicating to the singer that the vowel sound of a word should be carried over or ligatured upon two or more consecutive notes (as in a roulade), and that in such usage legato and not slurring is always intended unless the slur is specifically indicated."

"Although portamento (in the sense of slurring) continued to be widely used in popular music, it was disapproved of for operatic singing by many critics in the 1920s and 1930s as a sign of either poor technique, or of bad taste, a mark of cheap sentimentalism or showiness. This is not valid criticism of a performer when portamento is explicitly specified in the score or is otherwise appropriate. However, when there is no such specification, the singer is expected to be able to move crisply from note to note without any slurring or "scooping"._


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That will give me time to put a few thoughts together on the subjects of portamento and vibrato. I'm thinking that starting a separate thread(s) on aspects of vocal technique might be better than continuing to ignore Signor Nucci.


:Woodduck: I think at this point in the thread it would be EXTREMELY helpful if you would share your thoughts on portamento, legato, the slur mark, etc.. In my mind this directly relates to evaluating Leo Nucci's performance. I don't see any problem in later copying your discussion into a new thread on vocal technique, but I will let you decide that. Thank you very much.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> For a lyric baritone, he had the comfortability to sing that role better than most dramatic/Verdian baritones even in that same era. I'm going to assume that's from the same gala event where Sherrill Milnes performed one of his last performances of the Il Prologo from Pagliacio.


No, actually this rendition is from an incredible Ballo that was on Radio France back in the early '80s. "Kickass" describes the entire production, from the conducting, playing and all of the roles (especially Teresa Zylis-Gara as the Amelia, another singer who never got enough attention, and Piero Visconti as Riccardo, an interesting tenor who got lost in the wake of The Three Tenors era). You can see Zancanaro's appearance at the Opera for Africa gala, that you're referring to, elsewhere on Youtube.

"Lyric" describes Zancanaro's voice only in weight, as it was not a big voice (only "big enough"), but it was a freakishly well-powered voice and that's how he could handle all those dramatic roles.


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