# Haydn and Beethoven



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

A very interesting resource I jumped upon:

https://books.google.de/books?id=zP...=onepage&q=beethoven recognizes haydn&f=false

Too bad some of the pages aren't shown. Does anyone have this book?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I had a little trouble with all the passive voice academic writing style, but if I'm understanding it, the gist of what she's saying is that Haydn would have been the rock star that Beethoven was if only he'd come along a few years later when musicians were not so much considered servants to nobility. 

I think Haydn enjoyed a certain amount of that in London anyway. He was quite famous. 

Of course I could be missing the point entirely. These academics do need a hefty dose of Strunk and White.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

from what I read, what interested me most was that she treats the relationship between Haydn and Beethoven as the 'Haydn's hands story' - i.e. as a sort of trick or narrative which both composers benefitted from. The whole transition of the idea of the musician from servant to 'rock star' is at issue here . Still, I guess we'll never fully know what both thought of each other. It's interesting how Beethoven only admitted Haydn's influence on him late in life.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

The Jan Swafford Beethoven bio I'm reading now has lots of good information about Haydn and Beethoven's interactions and feelings toward each other. I'm enjoying it tremendously.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Swafford is a good and interesting source. Haydn certainly wasn't overly-fond of the "Grand Moghul" but respected his talent. Beethoven likewise had a rocky time with Haydn but respected his music greatly, considering him as much a rival as a teacher. He eased himself carefully into the genres where Haydn was the king, finally essaying the string quartet, the symphony, and the Mass especially at a fairly advanced age.

The year before Haydn died there was a special concert in his honor of The Creation. Haydn could no longer walk and Beethoven was one of those who carried his chair into the concert hall.

BTW Haydn certainly had his rock star phase: "Three thousand gulden in one night. Only in London!" No wonder Beethoven was always talking about getting over there with some symphonies in his pocket!


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I just finished the Swafford LvB biography today, it is indeed an amazing source. It has tons and tons of "meat and potatoes" musical analysis, as opposed to the Maynard Solomon psychological analysis. I'm a fan of both, but I feel my knowledge about Beethoven's story _and_ music grew exponentially with Swafford.

On Beethoven's deathbed (spoiler!), the publisher Anton Diabelli showed up to give Beethoven a framed picture of the humble cottage Haydn was born in. Beethoven directed it to be hung on the wall near his bed, and pointed out to Gerhard (Stephan von Breuning's son): "_Look, I got this today. See this little house, and in it so great a man was born!_". This time for rivalry with his teacher was past. It was hung on the wall proudly next to the portrait of his grandfather, Ludwig van Beethoven, who remained the model for a musician's life until Beethoven's final day, even though he had scarcely known him.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I want to read the Swafford biography. Maybe when I retire . . .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Swafford (IMO) doesn't add too much to knowledge of Beethoven beyond, say, what Cooper does. But he paints a far more complete picture of Beethoven's world. What ever happened to Lichnowsky, or Waldstein, or Razumovsky? Swafford tells us, and the picture is not always happy. Definitely a recommended book!


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

From what I can tell Beethoven himself had as much to do with the transition of the composer from servant to rock star as did the cultural climate. More than any particular musical innovations it was the thrust and tone of Beethoven's writing and concertizing that shifted the spotlight from the relationship between music-creator and listener to shine entirely on the music-creator, creating the rock-star "Great Composer" trope that prevailed throughout the 19th century and very early 20th in a way that it had not in the 18th. This was progress of a sort, but it has a distorting effect when we look back through it to music of, say, Haydn, who's constantly weaving a fascinating web from the fact that he can anticipate your anticipation of his gestures and either confirm or contradict them to varying, sometimes hilarious degrees. That web of interrelationships was, in my opinion, largely lost and forgotten by the middle of the 19th century.


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