# Favourite Neglecteds



## Roger Knox

Back in August, 2017 I started the Orchestral thread *Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers and works of the late romantic era*. Couldn't find a book on the topic that was clearly organized and found the topic confusing. Here are the thread's delimitations:

- Brahms, Bruckner, Mahler, and Strauss are considered "not neglected"
- Symphonies, symphonic poems, shorter forms and concertos are included, but not orchestral song, string orchestra music, light music, or music originally for other genres (e.g. stage)
- Modernist composers and works are not included, but post-romantic ones are
- Composers who wrote only 1 or 2 favourite works are not included

After all the time spent on it and the contributions of many, now I'm considering what has come of it all! And what next? As a personal start, here is a list of my favourite composers from that thread in 3 groups: (born 1820-1849; 1850-74; 1875-99)

*1. Raff, Reinecke, Goldmark, Bruch,* Gernsheim, J. Klengel(concertos)
2. F.X. Scharwenka(concertos), Pfitzner, Zemlinsky, Reger, F. Schmidt
3. Schreker, J. Marx, Gal, Korngold*

* Bruch I consider neglected excepting Violin Concerto No. 1 and _Kol Nidre_ for Cello and Orchestra
UPDATE: Korngold I no longer consider neglected!!!

Many other composers have been considered. I am trying to be selective. There are more composers whose music is worth knowing and the thread's still open for additions and comments. One more thing -- won't be using the word "neglected" again!


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## mbhaub

You sure hit a lot of my favorites: Raff, Goldmark, Pfitzner, Zemlinsky, Reger, F. Schmidt, Schreker, J. Marx, Korngold. 

I would add: Julius Roentgen and Anton Rubinstein.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> You sure hit a lot of my favorites: Raff, Goldmark, Pfitzner, Zemlinsky, Reger, F. Schmidt, Schreker, J. Marx, Korngold.
> 
> I would add: Julius Roentgen and Anton Rubinstein.


Thank you, I appreciate your post. I've been hemming and hawing about Roentgen for a long time and now realize that his enormous productivity frightens me! So its time to face up to my fears and start listening.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

I'm not sure if this counts, but I'm surprised no one mentioned Franz Xaver Süssmayr; today he mostly lies in the shadow of Mozart, known mostly as the one who completed Mozart's Requiem after his death in the process for writing it.


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## StrangeHocusPocus

Music from the pre-neolithic period


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

StrangeHocusPocus said:


> Music from the pre-neolithic period


LOL
And now seriously, the earliest music we have written evidence for it in the western would is Gregorian chant; or am I wrong?


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## MusicSybarite

Mine are:

Braunfels
Herzogenberg
Marx
Raff
Reger (though I wouldn't consider him that neglected)
Reznicek
Schmidt (I wouldn't consider him neglected either)
Schreker
Weingartner
Wellesz
Wetz
Zemlinsky (this one is arguably neglected I think)


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## StrangeHocusPocus

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> LOL
> And now seriously, the earliest music we have written evidence for it in the western would is Gregorian chant; or am I wrong?


How neglected do you want


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## MarkW

When I was young, Janacek was very much in the neglected category. There have been three "revivals" in my lifetime, and now he's pretty standard repertoire. Funny how that works.


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## Roger Knox

StrangeHocusPocus said:


> Music from the pre-neolithic period


Are you channelling a shaman I should know about?


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## Roger Knox

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> I'm not sure if this counts, but I'm surprised no one mentioned Franz Xaver Süssmayr; today he mostly lies in the shadow of Mozart, known mostly as the one who completed Mozart's Requiem after his death in the process for writing it.


The composers in the thread I mentioned in the OP are later than Süssmayr (b. 1766), but thanks for mentioning him because I like new discoveries. I only knew his Mozart Requiem completion, but just found out that there's a completion and CD of _his_ unfinished clarinet concerto.


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## Roger Knox

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> ... And now seriously, the earliest music we have written evidence for it in the western would is Gregorian chant; or am I wrong?


Suggest looking up music notation. I learned 50 years ago that there are a few examples from ancient Greece, but that needs updating.


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Mine are:
> 
> Braunfels
> Herzogenberg
> Marx
> Raff
> Reger (though I wouldn't consider him that neglected)
> Reznicek
> Schmidt (I wouldn't consider him neglected either)
> Schreker
> Weingartner
> Wellesz
> Wetz
> Zemlinsky (this one is arguably neglected I think)


Your knowledge base is very large and this different list of favourite composers is very helpful! My use of "neglected" is subjective. I agree, Franz Schmidt has in recent years risen in name recognition and popular/professional estimation. It may be time to stop calling him "neglected." Possibly Reger and Zemlinsky too. As for composers from other countries, it's nice to be reminded by *MarkW* of Janacek's roller-coaster revival history.


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## Oldhoosierdude

So all of these guys, their parents ignored them?


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## Roger Knox

Oldhoosierdude said:


> So all of these guys, their parents ignored them?


I'd like to find something else to use instead of "Neglected composers" -- have seen "Unsung composers," "Unheralded composers," and others and am looking for suggestions. By the way I went to Indiana University School of Music a very long time ago.


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## Highwayman

I see that you`ve neglected some composers such as Rheinberger, Draeseke, Jadassohn, R. Fuchs and W. Berger on this thread. 

I`d also like to mention Friedrich Kiel because of his wonderful chamber music and choral works but I`m not sure whether he meets the standards or not.


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## Swosh

Y'all heard of Hugo Alfven? He wrote a marvelous symphony!


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## Roger Knox

Highwayman said:


> I see that you`ve neglected some composers such as Rheinberger, Draeseke, Jadassohn, R. Fuchs and W. Berger on this thread.
> 
> I`d also like to mention Friedrich Kiel because of his wonderful chamber music and choral works but I`m not sure whether he meets the standards or not.


Thank you for your suggestions! The original thread is under Orchestral Music: Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers of the late romantic era, and it includes everyone in your first sentence. This thread is just a little addendum.


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## Art Rock

Swosh said:


> Y'all heard of Hugo Alfven? He wrote a marvelous symphony!


He wrote five of them, all well worth listening to.


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Schmidt (I wouldn't consider him neglected either)


Listening to Franz Schmidt's 3rd Symphony again, I was thinking of your comment. I appreciate the 3rd more now by constantly thinking of it as pastoral. And I'm amazed at how well he manages the dense harmonies of the second movement: realizing the harmonic potential (consonant and dissonant) of lush, multi-voice Viennese string scoring; using winds not for reinforcement but for adventurous contrast; saving his grandest gestures for key points.

I now believe Schmidt's music is not neglected. Notions that Schmidt's music "doesn't travel well" (i.e. beyond Austria), and that Schmidt was just behind the times have not stood up well. There are many things besides recordings, broadcasts, and concerts that maintain an earlier composer's profile, whether in print or online: information in textbooks and dictionaries or encylopedias, reviews and articles, research and analysis, inclusion of music in diploma or competition syllabuses, pedagogical use of orchestra excerpts, musical examples in theory class, internet data -- that help turn the ship of deprecation around. But that's been done with other composers, why not Franz Schmidt?


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## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Listening to Franz Schmidt's 3rd Symphony again, I was thinking of your comment. I appreciate the 3rd more now by constantly thinking of it as pastoral. And I'm amazed at how well he manages the dense harmonies of the second movement: realizing the harmonic potential (consonant and dissonant) of lush, multi-voice Viennese string scoring; using winds not for reinforcement but for adventurous contrast; saving his grandest gestures for key points.


That is his symphony I struggle with the most. The work doesn't seem difficult at listening to it, but the feeling when it finishes is that I can't remember some memorable theme or something like that. Of course, the symphony is not bad at all, maybe it's just my perception.


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## Rogerx

Oldhoosierdude said:


> So all of these guys, their parents ignored them?


Must be post of the year.


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## superhorn

Rarely performed but outstanding Russian composers : Mily Balakirev . Sergei Taneyev .
Nikolai Myaskovsky . There is no lack of recordings of their music, but live performances outside of Russia are extremely rare . 
Why don't top cellists such as Yo Yo Ma do Myaskovsky's haunting and gorgeous cello concerto ?
Why do we never hear I've performances in the west of Balakirev's colorful and melodious first symphony ?


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## Roger Knox

superhorn said:


> Rarely performed but outstanding Russian composers : Mily Balakirev . Sergei Taneyev .
> Nikolai Myaskovsky . There is no lack of recordings of their music, but live performances outside of Russia are extremely rare .
> Why don't top cellists such as Yo Yo Ma do Myaskovsky's haunting and gorgeous cello concerto ?
> Why do we never hear I've performances in the west of Balakirev's colorful and melodious first symphony ?


I agree with you. When it comes to programming anything beyond the "standard" Russian repertoire, we in the west are lacking.
One of the problems in North America is that more orchestras have allocated time for movie accompaniment and crossover programming on their main series (not only on pops concerts.)


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## Templeton

Schmidt and Marx are my favourites, not just of this genre, but overall. I feel very privileged to have seen two of Schmidt's symphonies performed live by two of the world's great orchestras, as well as Marx's masterpiece 'Eine Herbstsymphonie'. It's incredible really that this has been possible, within the past five years, at a time when classical music is supposedly in decline, in terms of popularity.


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## mbhaub

Schmidt's music I love, Marx I'm learning to. Now that we're at the end of the cd-era, one of the greatest things that has happened was a staggering widening of the recorded repertoire. 40 years ago I never thought I'd hear much Schmidt besides the already twice recorded 4th, Das Buch, and a couple of chamber works. Now, his entire works are (almost) available and in multiple versions. Amazing. There were some conductors who paid attention to what was going on. And whether to explore new material, challenge themselves, stop repetitious and boring concerts, or bring new music to audiences it paid off - sort of. I've heard the Schmidt 4th in San Francisco, Dallas, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Atlanta, New York and Detroit. But alas, that marvelous work has now disappeared from US concert halls. Das Buch is being done in Dallas next year, and that's a rarity. The problem is orchestra managers who have to sell tickets and frankly, Schmidt (and Marx) are just not big enough names to bring audiences in. I'd love to hear the Balakirev First played live, but that's probably never going to happen.

Now we have a young, fresh crop of conductors who are, in all likelihood, going to want to prove their chops on the standard repertoire. There are very few interested or knowledgeable about the rarer repertoire. Not too long ago I was talking with an up-and-coming conductor who has quite a resume already, and is really into Mahler. I suggested she ought to look into Schmidt and other Viennese composers of that era like Korngold, Zemlinsky, Schrecker, Weigl. She had never heard of Schmidt. The only Korngold she knew was the Violin Concerto. The others - not a glimmer of recognition. It's sad that record collectors have better knowledge of the repertoire than the conductors.


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## Templeton

mbhaub said:


> Now we have a young, fresh crop of conductors who are, in all likelihood, going to want to prove their chops on the standard repertoire. There are very few interested or knowledgeable about the rarer repertoire. Not too long ago I was talking with an up-and-coming conductor who has quite a resume already, and is really into Mahler. I suggested she ought to look into Schmidt and other Viennese composers of that era like Korngold, Zemlinsky, Schrecker, Weigl. *She had never heard of Schmidt. The only Korngold she knew was the Violin Concerto. The others - not a glimmer of recognition. *It's sad that record collectors have better knowledge of the repertoire than the conductors.


This is simply astonishing. I am a rank amateur, as far as classical music is concerned, cannot read music, haven't a clue about theory and only started taking a real interest a few years ago. However, I have listened to pretty well all that is available from Marx and Schmidt, as well as a number of other lesser known composers that have been mentioned and have travelled hundreds of miles to attend the rare performances of their major works. If I can gain a perfunctory awareness of the likes of Schmidt and Marx, despite working full-time in a completely unrelated and high pressure field, what does it say about the current quality of education that is being provided in music schools? I appreciate that the schools can't cover every composer, who ever lived but I would certainly expect their students to be exploring such areas, outside the classroom, especially one that professes a special interest in Mahler. Saying this, I shouldn't be surprised as I am shocked at how little of their own research my daughters are expected to pursue, as they study other subject areas at school and university. It seems that many people prefer to be spoon fed their education, these days or more likely it was always this way and I have just become the stereotypical grumpy old man .


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## Merl

I think we should celebrate complete unknown composers. I'd recommend one but I don't know their names.


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## mbhaub

This new disk should be of interest to everyone who likes the obscure. The oft-repeated phrase "Why is this not played?" applies again, perhaps more justified than in other cases. The symphony is terrific! Beautiful. Melodious, Harmonious. Powerful. If you want a real treat, get it. And Bittner wasn't even professional musician. His personal life is one of incredible tragedy, not unlike Allan Pettersson, and still managed to write beautiful, life-affirming music. One of my favorite discoveries in a long time.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Schmidt's music I love, Marx I'm learning to. Now that we're at the end of the cd-era, one of the greatest things that has happened was a staggering widening of the recorded repertoire. ... The problem is orchestra managers who have to sell tickets and frankly, Schmidt (and Marx) are just not big enough names to bring audiences in. ... It's sad that record collectors have better knowledge of the repertoire than the conductors.


I guess the neglected music field is full of ironies. It's the CD, exploring musicians, and enterprising record companies that provide us with good-to-outstanding recordings this repertoire. The internet enables further awareness through uploads, but digital audio online undermines the economic viability of the CD. Yet you've reminded us of the positive side of CD's in providing a huge range of works, that we then complain don't get played in concerts! Figuring out how classical music including neglected music will be supported in the future -- who can do that?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

StrangeHocusPocus said:


> Music from the pre-neolithic period


The Jazz Age? It pre-dated Rock, after all


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> This new disk should be of interest to everyone who likes the obscure. The oft-repeated phrase "Why is this not played?" applies again, perhaps more justified than in other cases. The symphony is terrific! Beautiful. Melodious, Harmonious. Powerful. If you want a real treat, get it. And Bittner wasn't even professional musician. His personal life is one of incredible tragedy, not unlike Allan Pettersson, and still managed to write beautiful, life-affirming music. One of my favorite discoveries in a long time.
> View attachment 117843


I've just listened to the first work, _Vaterland_. A colourful late-romantic work well worth listening to, with a fine performance by the Siberians and excellent sound -- another Toccata Classics success. Looking forward to hearing _Symphony No. 1_, and to further releases in the planned Bittner series! I know Brandon Carroll has been working for a long time to get Julius Bittner's neglected music performed and recorded so this is a wonderful achievement, one that his insightful program notes make even more valuable. Vienna-born Julius Bittner (1874-1939) was born and died in the same years as Franz Schmidt. The competition in Vienna must have been incredible during his lifetime yet he succeed in getting notable performances.


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## Swosh

Lyapunov's symphonies!


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## paulbest

The OP q is something I just can not resist.
Of course, everyone knows who I am going to say.

1 or 2 are being *less neglected* as time rolls on, But its still too slow. 
Like everything in this click nano sec world, I want these 4 to be ,,well 3 ,,well 2 lets say,,,to be made WWW known now, today, not tomorrow.

Schnittke, I'd say is maybe 70% known/recognized as great
Elliott Carter continues to place in the 3,,EVEN 4th spot in American composers, *greatest* list,,,not good, no unacceptable 
Allan Pettersson i'd say is more known today than when I made the discovery back in ,,,,2003ish, maybe before,,like 2001ish..memory faded....someone over at GMG made a quip on the *what R U listening to today*,,,2nd sym, *haunting*,,,hummm, I love things that haunt,,don't you?


So I'd say he has another ,,,hummm,,,,50 yrs to go. for any descent recognition takes to flowering,,,not sure if it the flower will produce any fruit though = fruit = Petterssonians. 

last, but certainly not least, in neglected/forgotten/unrecognized/yet-to-be discovered.
The refugee from germany, 1946 and settled in Italy, Hans Henze. His music may take some time, as it is ,,,lets say *not your average composer*, *not your run of the mill music maker*, *not left field, nor right,,nor center field*. 
In a few words how to describe his compositions,,,,,others have made significant contributions on that over at the Henze page, I forgot exactly what they said. 
anyway,,,Henze,,,yeah, well ,,,I am not pessimistic , but I sure ain't positive either. 
Henze may take some time


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> This new disk should be of interest to everyone who likes the obscure. The oft-repeated phrase "Why is this not played?" applies again, perhaps more justified than in other cases. The symphony is terrific! Beautiful. Melodious, Harmonious. Powerful. If you want a real treat, get it. And Bittner wasn't even professional musician. His personal life is one of incredible tragedy, not unlike Allan Pettersson, and still managed to write beautiful, life-affirming music. One of my favorite discoveries in a long time.
> View attachment 117843


Now, having listened to Julius Bittner's _Symphony No. 1_ in F Minor (1923), I fully support your endorsement! C'mon TalkClassical posters, if you haven't done so please trot over to the label's website for a listen to this gorgeous, enjoyable late-romantic work: 
Allegro -- intriguing opening melody over scurrying low strings, buildup to a crisis, later a powerful brass chorale in the Wagner/Strauss mode; 
Adagio -- entrancing, reserved and pensive; 
Scherzo -- bassoon opens a deft waltz, slightly spooky but much more fun than Saint-Saens' _Danse Macabre_, harmonically adventurous and with suave strings in the Trio 
Finale -- sort of rollicking but in minor mode until [. . . won't spoil the ending . . .]


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## Roger Knox

Templeton said:


> . . . If I can gain a perfunctory awareness of the likes of Schmidt and Marx, despite working full-time in a completely unrelated and high pressure field, what does it say about the current quality of education that is being provided in music schools? I appreciate that the schools can't cover every composer, who ever lived but I would certainly expect their students to be exploring such areas, outside the classroom, especially one that professes a special interest in Mahler. Saying this, I shouldn't be surprised as I am shocked at how little of their own research my daughters are expected to pursue, as they study other subject areas at school and university. It seems that many people prefer to be spoon fed their education, these days or more likely it was always this way and I have just become the stereotypical grumpy old man .


Having studied and then taught music composition and theory in the university system, I know the institutions are afraid of "curriculum creep:" i.e., overloading of students. All the course work, piled onto some hours per day of practising or composing, plus perhaps a part-time job, is too much. Plus at least in North America students arrive at university with less knowledge of music history & theory, literature, & foreign languages than formerly. So there's a streamlined curriculum intended to "cover" the "most important" selected knowledge. With high tuition costs, the undergraduate students in particular mainly want to get their credits, and of necessity have less opportunity for artistic adventure than I remember. I certainly don't think you're the stereotypical grumpy man and share your concerns (though Bittner's _Symphony No. 1_ has cheered me up today!)


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## starthrower

Laszlo Lajtha from Hungary. This guy was a great symphonist and orchestrator. I have all nine of his symphonies. You can get them cheap on Naxos. Give them a listen.

And you may have seen my Ersnst Toch post in the Current Listening thread. I highly recommend his 7 symphonies set on CPO. 

Both of these composers are very colorful, imaginative, and easy on the ears.


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## Roger Knox

starthrower said:


> And you may have seen my Ernst Toch post in the Current Listening thread. I highly recommend his 7 symphonies set on CPO. Both of these composers are very colorful, imaginative, and easy on the ears.


Thanks for your recommendation of Toch, I'm going to give his orchestral music another listen after my current "engagement" with Röntgen.


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## starthrower

Henry Cowell is probably the most neglected significant American composer. You'll find just a scant few threads here with a handful of posts. He was highly revered by Bartok, Varese, Nancarrow, and Cage. He composed some strange and unique piano pieces, but many of his Symphonies and other orchestral works are beautiful pieces to listen to. And he was a pioneer of the cross pollination of cultural influences in symphonic music. There's not much available on CD but there is a lot of good stuff on YouTube.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> I would add: Julius Roentgen and Anton Rubinstein.


Having listened to all of the symphonies and concertos available to me, Roentgen belongs on my list of favourites (identifying him here as "German-Dutch" as do a number of reference sources). I do not wish to downplay the Dutch factors in his creative work. Currently I'm listening to attractive orchestral works that are not symphonies or concertos, several of which are based on Dutch folk songs. Roentgen also had a number of Scandinavian links; he based at least one work on a Norwegian folk song, and was both a close friend and biographer of Grieg. His wife Amanda Maier-Roentgen was Swedish, and he communicated regularly with Carl Neilsen in Denmark.

Roentgen's attitude towards Wagner particularly interests me. In brief: the _Violin Concerto No. 1_ includes some composing around the opening chord progression of _Die Walkuere's_ Magic Fire Music, although his allegiance was to Brahms at that time. In late symphonies, there are ironic references to the so-called "Dresden Amen" progression from _Parsifal_. Written at the beginning of the 1930's, I think that as a Jewish composer he's poking fun at Wagner and understandably fearing the rise of the Nazis. The cellist, composer, and pedagogue Julius Klengel was Roentgen's cousin; there were many musicians in both families. The Jewish Klengels had long roots in Leipzig and connections with the Mendelssohns; one source notes their anti-Wagner stance since the mid-nineteenth century. Another example where the Brahms-Wagner distinction is visible.


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## Bulldog

Roger Knox said:


> Now, having listened to Julius Bittner's _Symphony No. 1_ in F Minor (1923), I fully support your endorsement! C'mon TalkClassical posters, if you haven't done so please trot over to the label's website for a listen to this gorgeous, enjoyable late-romantic work:


Although I currently don't have the time to listen to Bittner's F minor symphony, I did listen to the first few minutes of the 1st movement and was sufficiently impressed to make sure I give it a full hearing within the next few days.


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## MusicSybarite

I've been delighted by the Polish composer Zygmunt Noskowski's 3rd Symphony in F major _From Spring to Spring_. Recommended for fans of late-Romantic symphonies. It has nothing to envy from other more known symphonies of its time (written in 1903).


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## maestro267

As we seem to have moved away from the original intention of featuring only Austro-German composers, I must say I've really started to enjoy the symphonies of Laszlo Lajtha. Some of the most richly and wonderfully orchestrated works since I discovered Ginastera.


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## Roger Knox

maestro267 said:


> As we seem to have moved away from the original intention of featuring only Austro-German composers, I must say I've really started to enjoy the symphonies of Laszlo Lajtha. Some of the most richly and wonderfully orchestrated works since I discovered Ginastera.


Thanks for your post! I haven't yet listened to Lajtha (or the Noskowski work recommended by MusicSybarite) but I think the idea of continuing and expanding this thread to composers from other countries is great! The original "Neglected German and Austrian orchestral composers ..." thread has the following delimitations:

- composers born 1820-1900 (by coincidence, practically all the works cited were written between 1850-1950)
- late- or post-romantic music
- works for symphony orchestra including concertos

Now's the chance -- would anyone like to suggest what we do this time?

P.S. In the OP I said I wouldn't use the word "Neglected" again. But considering that the previous "Neglected" thread has drawn 360 replies and 34,237 views over the past two years, maybe "Neglected" should be kept!


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> You sure hit a lot of my favorites: Raff, Goldmark, Pfitzner, Zemlinsky, Reger, F. Schmidt, Schreker, J. Marx, Korngold.
> 
> I would add: Julius Roentgen and Anton Rubinstein.


Thank you for your comments. I had thought of Anton Rubinstein's career as international but most associated with Russia. It seems you have a case for Germany as the central country -- any specific reason(s)?


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## Animal the Drummer

Swosh said:


> Lyapunov's symphonies!


Good choice, as would be his miscellaneous orchestral pieces, such as "Zelazowa Wola". Some of his piano music is also worth a listen, though I tend to prefer his orchestral output.

Another Russian composer I love is Kalinnikov. IMHO his first symphony is the equal of Balakirev's lovely equivalent and he too has other delightful orchestral works to his credit, e.g."The Cedar and the Palm".


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