# Did Bach write any Weak Music?



## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

On another thread ArtMusic pressed me for proof that Bach had some weaknesses when it came to his scores. I'm no musicologist but I have certain personal dislikes within Bach's oeuvre that I listed as the Italian concerto, the chromatic fantasy, and a handful of some of the French & English suites. I know all these things come down to personal preference but I'm really intrigued if Bach wrote any weak music. 

So how 'bout it fellow TC members who are more well versed in music on the page... Do you have any examples of shoddy writing where Bach is concerned. Perhaps it's some of his early work, maybe it's a secular piece or something else out of his wheelhouse? Anyone have anything or was Bach just that good?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Weak Music is one of my favorite genres.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Fugue Meister said:


> I have certain personal dislikes .............
> 
> I'm really intrigued if Bach wrote any weak music.


so .... are you looking for 'personal dislikes' or 'weak music' or .... is this another thread where the two will be regarded as the same?

We had a post on a thread in the last 24 hours that said something like "the cantatas are hard to plough through" as an example of Bach's so-called flaws .... and I would find it laughable to consider "I find it hard to maintain concentration through 60 CDs" as an authoritative comment on the quality of Bach's work.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Headphone Hermit said:


> so .... are you looking for 'personal dislikes' or 'weak music' or .... is this another thread where the two will be regarded as the same?
> 
> We had a post on a thread in the last 24 hours that said something like "the cantatas are hard to plough through" as an example of Bach's so-called flaws .... and I would find it laughable to consider "I find it hard to maintain concentration through 60 CDs" as an authoritative comment on the quality of Bach's work.


No I was hoping someone would put forth a real weak piece and offer insight into why it is a lesser work of Bach because I'm not up to that challenge apart from it being just an opinion and I'm more interested in a real answer with reason to back it up. But it's a free forum so I guess we'll have to accept opinions too.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I don't think Bach wrote anything terrible but the sacred songs and arias (BWV 439-524), with a few exceptions, are probably the weak link in his oeuvre. These pieces are for solo voice with minimal accompaniment, so they really rely on the strength of the melody, which is sometimes lacking. In fact, Bach probably wasn't the greatest melodist of all time; many of his greater works rely on small motifs which lend themselves to contrapuntal exploration. 

In addition, the chorale settings (BWV 250-438) are technically exemplary, but I'm not sure when I'd want to listen to them except in the context of a longer work.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> so .... are you looking for 'personal dislikes' or 'weak music' or .... is this another thread where the two will be regarded as the same?
> 
> We had a post on a thread in the last 24 hours that said something like "the cantatas are hard to plough through" as an example of Bach's so-called flaws .... and I would find it laughable to consider "I find it hard to maintain concentration through 60 CDs" as an authoritative comment on the quality of Bach's work.


I said they are hard to plough through - I have listened to a lot of bach and enjoyed it all - but not the cantatas - I find them dull and there are a lot of them to plough through searching for one I might like a lot. That's what I meant.

BTW OP I think the italian concerto is magnificent.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

stomanek said:


> I said they are hard to plough through - I have listened to a lot of bach and enjoyed it all - but not the cantatas - I find them dull and there are a lot of them to plough through searching for one I might like a lot. That's what I meant.
> 
> BTW OP I think the italian concerto is magnificent.


There is so much better keyboard works in Bach but yeah I guess it's okay. BTW you should try Ich Habe Genug BWV 82... or Brich dem Hungrigen dein Brot BWV 39, those are some awesome cantatas, and a good start to the ploughing... :tiphat:


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

If by weak, we are talking about actual violations of the "rules" of composition for his time, yes he did occasionally break the "rules". For example, parallel intervals of a fifth or an octave between "voices" (these voices might be sung or might be instrumental lines) are forbidden according to the "rules" or common practices of Bach's time. If you search through his 435 or so chorales plus other compositions you will find one of these mistakes here and there. But they are very infrequent. These might have been intended artistic license or actual mistakes. Impossible to tell at this late remove. 

Also standard practice in the time of Bach was for harmonies to be used in a very controlled and standardized way. This is probably too technical for a short post, but I am referring to methods of modulation and the usage of chromatically altered harmonies. Also there were very strict rules about the usage of non-chord tones. These NCTs can be classified into one of several categories and must be used in a way that follows the "rules" of that time. Once again, you will find a very occasional usage of harmonies or NCTs that does not seem to follow the "rules" of his time. But these violations are very infrequent. And Bach may have selected a particular harmony or NCT for artistic reasons, even if it could be considered a "mistake". Who knows?

One of the most interesting things to me about Bach is how few of these "mistakes" exist. You have to really, really hunt for them. You could spend days analyzing Bach's music and find just one or two. It is incredible to me that he could be so infallible writing at the speed he was forced to write. He had to produce new music for church services every week. His output is huge. I haven't thought about this in many years, but at one time I suspected that later editors (like Mendelssohn) must have "corrected" his music prior to publication. I proposed looking into this to a musicologist friend and I thought he would have a stroke right in front of me. Music historians and musicologists seem to truly venerate Bach, and suggesting he might have been a mere mortal is akin to heresy.

Anyway, technical mastery is one thing, aesthetic success is more difficult to achieve. I find much of his output quite lifeless and uninspired. Since I never hope to get a job as a musicologist I guess it is OK for me to say that. But when Bach is at his best, his music seems to transcend the mere mortal, and give us a glimpse of what heaven must sound like.


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## Muse Wanderer (Feb 16, 2014)

I absolutely love Bach's cantatas but during my cantata 'pilgrimage', that is still ongoing, I encountered what can only be described as a dud..






BWV 143, 'Lobe den Herrn, meine Seele' on volume 5 of the Suzuki cycle.

The opening chorus has none of the charm and prowess associated with Bach. It is repetitive, short and boring with a mix-up of horns and drums that just give me a headache.

The following soprano choral has no qualities to write about.

The tenor recitative lasts 23 seconds... enough said!

Then, oh my, the tenor aria starts..... beautiful... this is the Sebastian I adore!

Next, the bass aria - not again! :scold: The bombastic horns and drums first heard in the opening chor are awful. This can't be dear old Sebastian!

Second tenor aria / choral has a nice bassoon and acceptable tenor lines. Nothing to be excited of but this is Bachian in nature.

The closing Chor und Choral, oh how much I miss Handel's 'Alleluia'. This is just plain boring!

This closing cantata on Suzuki's Volume 5 was completely unexpected when I heard it first. You have masterpieces BWV 18, BWV 152, BWV 155 and BWV 161.

Then you close with BWV 143 and you hear mediocrity apart from the two tenor arias that are fine.

Well, I had to delve deeper into the why...Jsbachcantatas.com: Chapter-65 BWV 143

Julian Mincham wrote the following:

"This is a difficult work to write about. Its authenticity is extremely doubtful (Dürr p 160-161) and internal evidence drawn from the musical construction gives rise to additional uncertainty. For one thing, nowhere else in the cantatas does Bach employ the combination of three horns and drums. It is, of course, dangerous to assume, particularly with a composer as daring and adventurous as Bach, that a unique event is evidence of lack of authenticity. But it is a rousing and effective sound and having used and heard it once, why not again? However, the most telling evidence comes from the quality of some of the writing or, indeed, the lack of it."

His movement by movement analysis is, as usual, very informative.

This may well have been completed by someone else with two nice arias by Bach incorporated within it.

Or just maybe, even though unlikely, Bach had a bit of a migraine at the time and couldn't care less!

Anyway there you have it, from a JS Bach fanatic! :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I don't think he wroth week music, liking it all is a whole different matter.
I love a organ CD now and then but the complete works for organ is wasted on me.


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Week music? He was writing weekly cantatas at one point. About 1/3 of them are lost though. There's just too many of them to keep track...

...wait, you meant "weak"?!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Truckload said:


> If by weak, we are talking about actual violations of the "rules" of composition for his time .... , yes he did occasionally break the "rules".


Sorry, but I do not regard 'violations of the "rules" of composition for his time' as an adequate characterisation of 'weak' in a discussion of a composer.

To do so, would mean that all composers who broke established rules were therefore 'weak' composers - and I would expect that some of the most admired composers were innovators who broke those rules


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can't say that Bach had any weakness in his output but personally speaking I've never been swept away by his concertos (apart from the Brandenburgs), cantatas (I prefer his larger-scale choral works) or the chamber works for lute and flute (not a fan of either instrument, especially the former), but I know that's down to my own idiosyncrasies more than anything else.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> Sorry, but I do not regard 'violations of the "rules" of composition for his time' as an adequate characterisation of 'weak' in a discussion of a composer.
> 
> To do so, would mean that all composers who broke established rules were therefore 'weak' composers - and I would expect that some of the most admired composers were innovators who broke those rules


No need to say sorry. I also admire many if not most of the classical music innovators. It just wasn't Bach's thing to be an innovator. He was a perfecter.

As I wrote in my post "if by weak, we are talking about . . ." so it is a conjecture as to the nature of the OP's inquiry. One of the most remarkable things about Bach is his astounding consistency. It is extremely difficult to find any "violations" despite his thousands of pages of output. And even when he breaks the "rules" it is a rare listener who could detect the difference.

Until the most recent music theory textbooks, his music was the backbone of music theory instruction. Recent authors, realizing that students did not always share an enthusiasm for Bach, now include exemplars from many different composers. But Bach was ubiquitous in theory courses for the very good reason that his compositions are as close to perfection from technical defect as any mere mortal is likely to achieve.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Of course not all of his works are equally good, but I can't think of anything he wrote that I'd call bad.

For example you could say the D minor Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565, is not as great an achievement as his other organ preludes and fugues, but it's still effective in its own way. (And it might not even be by Bach.)


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Truckload said:


> Anyway, technical mastery is one thing, aesthetic success is more difficult to achieve. I find much of his output quite lifeless and uninspired.


I don't know if I would say "much" of his output is uninspired as I don't think I've listened to half of it, but I do find works like The Art of Fugue, A Musical Offering and some of the organ works very dry and mechanical, certainly impressive technically but boring to listen to and I still struggle getting through them.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Knowing what I know now about the greatness of Bach's solo keyboard music, solo violin music, solo cello music, his Brandenburg Concertos and Orchestral Suites pale in comparison. Not really weak, but just not on the exalted level of the magnificent solo works.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I have found 90% of Bach's output magnificent, and needless to say a joy to listen to each time - the WTC and much of the solo keyboard music I play on a weekly basis. I think the best phrase to use about the other 10% is that it just isn't as exciting or captures the listener. That isn't to say this small part of Bach's output is weak but just not that exciting and I'm thinking of some of the sections in the cantatas which I could certainly live without. As is the case with much early Mozart, the compositions aren't badly written but what I think of wallpaper music. Even so, if I could write music as good as Bach's duller moments I would be very happy indeed.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Chronochromie said:


> I do find works like The Art of Fugue. . . very dry and mechanical . . .boring to listen to and I still struggle getting through them.


I have heard this sort of comment before, I wouldn't be surprised if it is a common response, indeed many of Bach's contemporaries said that his canons and fugues are too complex, ugly and unnatural.

It's almost as if contrapuntal music, style antico, is in the same position as "modern" music. Strange that.


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Chronochromie said:


> I don't know if I would say "much" of his output is uninspired as I don't think I've listened to half of it, but I do find works like The Art of Fugue, A Musical Offering and some of the organ works very dry and mechanical, certainly impressive technically but boring to listen to and I still struggle getting through them.


Perhaps "much" is too strong a word. I was just referring to my own personal reaction. My favorite music is the music of the late romantic era, so I gravitate towards very emotional music. Of his major compositions my favorite would have to be his B minor Mass. Of his keyboard compositions my favorite would unquestionably be the Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor. In high school I went through a phase when I put my recording of it by E Power Biggs on the turntable every day after school for about 150 consecutive days. I had no headphones, so my siblings were going insane with hearing it every day, but I loved it, still do.

I will not risk being specific about the Bach works I find lifeless and uninspired. I don't want the Bach fans to put out a hit contract on me.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I have a "premier" recording of something called "Canons" or "Canzonas" or something sounding like he might have scribbled them in the margins of scrap paper. You see they are so dismal no one thought to record them until the 80s and so dismal I can't even remember the names.

I'll have to look them up when I get home from work.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Bach absolutely has weaker compositions. Which ones they are will vary by person. I have not tried a bunch of his material, as I have to put in extra effort to get it on the instruments I like (modern, no harpsichord). From what I have heard, Bach's material is seldom outright bad, just sometimes not that interesting. The Goldberg Variations are actively boring to me. Others like Brandenburg Concerto No. 5 are fine but uninspiring.

I recognize certain pieces as belonging to the top tier of classical music, such as English Suite No. 2 and the Italian Concerto. As I can already tell from those who posted before me, others' mileage does vary.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

One composer I know who is a lifelong Bach fanatic and fugue fetishist said that some of the clavichord toccatas and fugues BWV 910-916 were kind of weak from a technical standpoint; a couple are early works, after all. He pointed out the fugue from BWV 913 as being "laughably bad," but I don't know as much about the composition of fugues to critique it, I just know there are devoted Bach out there fans who don't find everything the man wrote to be equally great.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Diverse Kanons Bwv 1087 was the work I was trying to think of earlier today. With a few exceptions they just sound like a bunch of finger exercises.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I find the thread subject rather odd and disappointing. I joined this board to essentially be part of a community that shares its love of classical music, not to look for compositional flaws.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I find the thread subject rather odd and disappointing. I joined this board to essentially be part of a community that shares its love of classical music, not to look for compositional flaws.


In light of your position in other recent threads, you are quite sure you perceive no irony in your post?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

IMO not all of Bach's music is "great," not is it intended to be. But all of it serves its purposes admirably. The Inventions, for instance, seem designed as exercises to learn to play, and possibly to compose, contrapuntal music. They are also good music, but hardly in the same class as the WTC or the Goldbergs. That said, who could have done it better?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Of course. A lot of his early stuff, like any young composer. Most of his early works for organ are dicarded by the cognoscenti as mediocre.

I don't agree with "mediocre", but I certainly see the point in this allmusic review about the Dorian Toccata and Fugue (BWV 538, _not_ the 565!). Indeed, in my teen years I had a CD of Karl Richter playing many organ works by Bach. The Toccata got my attention quickly. I found the fugue "cute". But, over the years, I noticed I kept coming back to that fugue. Today, it's one of my favorite fugues by Bach. I barely listen to the Toccata. So, whe I saw that review some months ago, I was not at all surprised.

The Toccata and Fugue in question (by K.Richter): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6J7c2ObAo4; 




Glenn Gould makes very interesting commentaries here about the development of Bach as a composer over his life, a must watch vid!:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

nathanb said:


> In light of your position in other recent threads, you are quite sure you perceive no irony in your post?


Brother, shine the light! Let's see what you've got.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

KenOC said:


> IMO not all of Bach's music is "great," not is it intended to be. But all of it serves its purposes admirably. The Inventions, for instance, seem designed as exercises to learn to play, and possibly to compose, contrapuntal music. They are also good music, but hardly in the same class as the WTC or the Goldbergs. That said, who could have done it better?


But they are MUCH better than they need to be, as exercises for children.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I find the thread subject rather odd and disappointing. I joined this board to essentially be part of a community that shares its love of classical music, not to look for compositional flaws.


Well I understand that, though one way or "sharing the love" is understanding better, understanding people's responses better, like the response of finding AoF boring.

But the real reason I'm posting is that I think there may be a double standard here. You're quick enough to find fault with performers, why save the composers from the criticisms?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

isorhythm said:


> But they are MUCH better than they need to be, as exercises for children.


That is absolutely, incontrovertibly true. IMO anyway!


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Is anyone familiar with all of Bach's works? I'm certainly not. But if he only wrote masterpieces, he would be the only composer in history with that track record.


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## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

I would love many of Bach's harpsichord works to be played 
on the harp (or piano). I prefer that, and will be writing on that topic next.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> But the real reason I'm posting is that I think there may be a double standard here. You're quick enough to find fault with performers, why save the composers from the criticisms?


If a discussion involves various recordings of a particular work or set of works, I'll certainly offer my opinion of the performance assuming that I am very familiar with it. I know you also provide your opinions on recorded performances.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

One of Bach's early pieces that have gained popularity is of course the Toccata & Fugue in D from 1705, when he was twenty years old. Usually performed on the organ but here is the harpsichord version,


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

aleazk said:


> Glenn Gould makes very interesting commentaries here about the development of Bach as a composer over his life, a must watch vid!:


I "liked" this post because I found the information and the video interesting - not agreeing with everything Gould said (or that review). I do agree that Bach had some works that were less technically impressive than others. That doesn't render the others 'weak' in my opinion, (Gould himself admitted he quite liked that early Bach piece he was criticizing in the video.)

I like pretty much everything I've listened to by Bach, some pieces more than others. For me it seems to depend more on the style of the individual piece as opposed to whether or not it is considered 'mediocre juvenilia'. I quite like the toccata (and fugue) from bwv 538.

Sometimes Bach composed in what I perceive as a more harmonically conservative manner (similar to Handel), it is these works I typically enjoy a little less, an example is the popular (and as far as I know revered) Cantata BWV 140. But I do not consider it a weak piece.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor is also accounted a very early work. It's hard to see that he ever surpassed it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I know you also provide your opinions on recorded performances.


Yes, but I want to stop and instead say what the performer's doing and what the consequences are. And hazard a guess about why.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Truckload said:


> I gravitate towards very emotional music.


You know something like Art of Fugue can be performed emotionally, indeed most informed performances do play it expressively. Just try listening to Weinberger in cpt ix through to cpt xv which Bulldog mentioned a couple of days ago.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't think the mature Bach ever wrote 'weak' music but some of it is definitely more interesting (to me anyway) than other parts of his genre. I cannot find much enthusiasm (e.g.) for The Musical Offering'. But considering his workload and the speed at which he had to write the sheer quality of his output is phenomenal. Nothing is less than technically very good and his output contains some of the very greatest musical works ever produced.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> You know something like Art of Fugue can be performed emotionally, indeed most informed performances do play it expressively. Just try listening to Weinberger in cpt ix through to cpt xv which Bulldog mentioned a couple of days ago.


The art of Fugue is an incredible piece. Try the performance by Canadian Brass.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> I find the thread subject rather odd and disappointing. I joined this board to essentially be part of a community that shares its love of classical music, not to look for compositional flaws.


Aww.. didn't know I was supposed to post non oddities that thrill and excite everyone. The whole purpose of this thread was to see if anyone could come up with an academic example of Bach's compositions that weren't amazing and near perfect. So far it seems as if no one has risen to the challenge (although I still hold out hope for someone like Mahlerian, EdwardBlast or Woodduck to offer up something).

Anyhow I'm one of the biggest Bach fans that's among the living right now so the purpose of the thread was in no way to denigrate him or his music, it rose out of a genuine curiosity to see if Bach was flawed like I argued all composers must be but was unable to point out any such weakness myself. Well no one has been able thus far so I suppose Bach is the most Godlike composer humankind has ever seen the likes of.. BACH RULES..


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Oh and for the record I love any clips of Gould talking about Bach even if I don't happen to agree with him (however it seems he agreed with me or rather I, him that the Italian concerto and chromatic fantasy aren't that great), for those of you who like the clip someone gave a link to I encourage you to go search youtube for the myriad of videos with Gould talking on a number of composers and subjects (even though they may just be his opinions, I count his better than most).


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Weak music by Bach? The Art of Fugue.

*locks self in bunker*


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Chronochromie said:


> Weak music by Bach? The Art of Fugue.
> 
> *locks self in bunker*


I used to think this too. I've come around, but it'll never be my favorite.

Pretend it's 16th century music. That might help.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I dunno about "weak, per se, but those bloody harpsichord concertos set my teeth on edge...


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I dunno about "weak, per se, but those bloody harpsichord concertos set my teeth on edge...


If you're anything like me, you might prefer his piano concertos :lol:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Blancrocher said:


> If you're anything like me, you might prefer his piano concertos :lol:


:lol:

I don't know, I find Bach to be a bit one-note in the concertos. Obviously, the harpsichord doesn't help.

I like a lot of his church music, though... :tiphat:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

This Capriccio is the earliest known (datable) Bach work, and it's far from the standard of his mature masterpieces, even those that would be written a few years later.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Yes, but I want to stop and instead say what the performer's doing and what the consequences are. And hazard a guess about why.


I do find your comments about recorded performances to be worthy of careful reading. If you have any problem with my comments, I'd appreciate it if you would spell them out in a direct manner.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Blancrocher said:


> If you're anything like me, you might prefer his piano concertos :lol:


As far as I know, he has not written any piano concertos at all.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> I find the thread subject rather odd and disappointing. I joined this board to essentially be part of a community that shares its love of classical music, not to look for compositional flaws.


Some of us (Mandryka, you and I) take the composer's authority for granted, and for that reason we concentrate upon interpretation. But I think the intention of the founders of this forum was to discuss music as much (or even more) as interpretation, and in this context I understand those, who comment upon their opinions of the quality of different music.

On the other hand I find the specific purpose of this thread futile, What´s Next? A thread about which composer has written the "weakest" music?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

premont said:


> On the other hand I find the specific purpose of this thread futile, What´s Next? A thread about which composer has written the "weakest" music?


Someone will likely take you up on that one.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

It's like this. I hold Beethoven in the highest regard. I find just everything he wrote sacrosanct, untouchable. Yet he perpetrated "Wellington's Victory" on an unsuspecting world.

For non-classical (sort of ) I suppose Ian Anderson has no equal in my pantheon of composers, yet he's inflicted more than a couple of toxic little mishaps on his fans. "Hot Mango Flush" comes to mind, among others.

It's the same with Bach. Rather than lionizing alone, the ability to perceive flaws in our heroes I think is part of maturing and I believe it helps us understand or even appreciate the artists even more, warts and all.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Weston said:


> It's like this. I hold Beethoven in the highest regard. I find just everything he wrote sacrosanct, untouchable. Yet he perpetrated "Wellington's Victory" on an unsuspecting world.


That perpetration, penetration, or pervertization, yielded excellent remuneration! Probably made Ludwig more money than anything before the Missa. And the crowd loved it! The review said, "We hardly need to add that laymen were completely amazed at this work and did not know what had happened to them..."

So be careful in criticizing it. Remember what Beethoven said to that other guy who trash-talked it in 1825... :lol:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I do find your comments about recorded performances to be worthy of careful reading. If you have any problem with my comments, I'd appreciate it if you would spell them out in a direct manner.


I don't have any problems with your comments, on the contrary, I've often found them interesting.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

premont said:


> As far as I know, he has not written any piano concertos at all.


I think Blancrocher meant that if you don't care for the sound of the harpsichord the piano may be preferable. I also prefer his _keyboard_ concertos played on the piano.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

I do not particularly like the Italian Concerto, but that is because I have heard it so many times over the years, it has become flat, stale and unprofitable for me--but not because of any musical flaws in the piece.

Turning the topic in another direction, I think one type of work Bach wrote is highly undervalued, if not almost unknown: the choral chorales as I call them, to distinguish them from the organ chorales. These are his arrangements of Lutheran hymns for four part chorus (I think none are original compositions). The Hanssler Bachakademie set has 9 CDs of them, arranged by hymn topic: unexpected gems when I first heard them. An Amazon search did not show any other independent recordings.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Fugue Meister said:


> I think Blancrocher meant that if you don't care for the sound of the harpsichord the piano may be preferable. I also prefer his _keyboard_ concertos played on the piano.


Maybe he meant so, but he did not write so.

BTW Bach's BWV 1052 - 1065 are harpsichord concertos, not keyboard concertos in the broadest sense.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Turning the topic in another direction, I think one type of work Bach wrote is highly undervalued, if not almost unknown: the choral chorales as I call them, to distinguish them from the organ chorales. These are his arrangements of Lutheran hymns for four part chorus (I think none are original compositions). The Hanssler Bachakademie set has 9 CDs of them, arranged by hymn topic: unexpected gems when I first heard them. An Amazon search did not show any other independent recordings.


You think of BWV 250 - 438, I suppose.

They are as well as all contained in the "complete" Brilliant Bach box.
And even in the Teldec Bach 2000 box.


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

What does weak Music mean? Since I don't know what weak music means, I don't know the answer. He was playing Vivaldi's musics. I take it he admired Vivaldi so much.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Nope. Bach didn't write any week music. But Glazunov and Vivaldi both wrote seasonal music.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

premont said:


> Some of us (Mandryka, you and I) take the composer's authority for granted, and for that reason we concentrate upon interpretation.


That's fine for some composers, but actually knowing what were the composer's intentions is problematical in some cases. I read recently (in the notes to the Teldec complete Bach cantatas set) that for a number of the cantatas, it is a matter of debate which specific instruments Bach was intending - and that the uncertainty in some case extended to the pitch of the instrument as well as the quality of the sound.
Certainly for pieces composed before recorded music, all present performances are interpretations


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

atsizat said:


> What does weak Music mean? Since I don't know what weak music means, I don't know the answer. He was playing Vivaldi's musics. I take it he admired Vivaldi so much.


I assume in this instance it means music that comparatively speaking is not up to his usual high standard.


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Isn't "weak" technically subjective though?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The real question is whether Bach or any composer consistently wrote weak music throughout their careers. Many of Mozart's infant pieces were ordinary but the fact that he wrote what he did at that age and more importantly, the sheer masterpieces later makes him a genius. Bach's first compositions probably didn't survive. His earliest surviving works may not show the caliber of works of only a few years later that have survived, but the overwhelming quality of his vast oeuvre shows he is not a weak composer by any stretch of mind from who understand his music and his place in history.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

premont said:


> You think of BWV 250 - 438, I suppose.
> 
> They are as well as all contained in the "complete" Brilliant Bach box.
> And even in the Teldec Bach 2000 box.


True enough...but I referred to the Hanssler because Amazon lists only the Hanssler recordings as individually available CDs. It would seem that to acquire thr Brilliant and Teldec versions, you would have to buy the complete box.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> True enough...but I referred to the Hanssler because Amazon lists only the Hanssler recordings as individually available CDs. It would seem that to acquire thr Brilliant and Teldec versions, you would have to buy the complete box.


The Brilliant should be this:

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Chor%E4le/hnum/9902606


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> I assume in this instance it means music that comparatively speaking is not up to his usual high standard.


I did assume similarly, and in this sense most composers earliest works are weak.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There is a late work of Bach's which is a bit enigmatic -- the 14 canons on the ground from the Goldberg variations, BWV 1087. Glen Wilson described them in glowing terms in his essay http://www.glenwilson.eu/article5.html



> But with these canons we enter a realm where words are worse than useless. If the Goldberg Variations are cabbage and turnips, the 14 Canons are nectar and ambrosia. This is about as close to Olympus as man will ever get.


Actually may be not, because the Goldberg Variations surely aren't cabbage and turnips.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Well, cabbage and turnips have driven me away!!

http://nachumschoffmanthoughts.com/?page=THEGOLDBERGVARIATIONSQUODLIBET


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

premont said:


> The Brilliant should be this:
> 
> https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-1685-1750-Chor%E4le/hnum/9902606


Cheap enough. 
Interesting that for what is putatively the same material, Hanssler used 9 CDs, Teldec 4, and this Brilliant set uses 6.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Given that he was required to (or set himself a goal to) churn out a new cantata every week for much of the liturgical calendar, plus rehearse unruly and incompetent boys, plus perform and compose works for the Cafe Zimmerman regularly, there will of course be a number of duds and weak junk. The surprising part is how much of it is indeed of the highest quality. If you want examples, the endless succession of tedious organ chorales is a good start, as are the cantatas where the text was uninspiring (probably at least a third of the 200+) or where Bach seems to have tried to do the text himself, and clearly struggled. He was at his best when he had a good librettist creating the words for him and leading him to new inspirations.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Debussy's magnificent two cents on the subject: https://books.google.com/books?id=JFxriIWyFkQC&pg=PT281

The problem with mediocre Bach is that it's still complicated, so it sounds as though it should be better than it sounds. This in contrast to Handel, who when he's feeling uninspired quite clearly announces "Okay, nothing to hear here for at least the next few minutes, folks."


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