# A Better Ending for Turandot



## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

The challenge is to make a better ending while keeping ALL of Puccini's music and stage directions up to the very end.

Basically, the premise is that Turandot has been possessed by the ghost of her ancestor for her entire life. In Act 2 Scene 2, Turandot actually references this. Here, this is literally the case and not merely metaphorically. She also admits to both loving and hating Calaf suggesting a split personality.

Calaf however, has impressed the ghost after revealing his name willingly to Turandot. After the duet "Del primo pianto", the ghost of her ancestor (who was raped and killed) who has been possessing her body since her birth (which is why she's an ice princess) leaves her as she's impressed by Calaf and thinks that Turandot has found a worthy husband, thus she relents and has a change of heart.

(Ancestral ghosts possessing descendants (if they are unhappy) is actually a theme in traditional Asian/Chinese culture which is why dead spirits are appeased in all sorts of ways.)

So the ghost finds repose and can finally rest and Turandot is freed (after a struggle since she's scared of the ghost since her childhood leaving her) and can be herself. This scene should happen with Turandot alone. This gives a more fairy tale/mythical quality to the opera and successfully handles the verismo quality of Liu's death just prior. Her sacrifice also was instrumental in moving the ghost to depart from Turandot.

And thus they all lived happily ever after just like the original opera's ending.

What do you people think?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I think you should ask the mods putting this in the opera forum section.


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## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

Rogerx said:


> I think you should ask the mods putting this in the opera forum section.


Good idea, I didn't even know there was an opera section. Please and thank you.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

What I think: the libretto was finished, and the story by Gozzi was well-known. Just use them...isn't that really what Alfano did anyway? He used Puccini's sketches and the Adamo-Simoni libretto. Why re-tool and change Puccnini's intention? Some people don't like Alfano's work, but I think it's fine just the way it is. We are so far removed from the era Turandot was written in that any other completion would be anachronistic.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

You can also try listening to Alfano's original version of the ending, the one that Toscanini had severely cut. Here is a recording with Josephine Barstow and Lando Bartolini conducted by John Mauceri...


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## shaun fernandez (6 mo ago)

For me I like it the way it is



192.168.100.1 192.168.1.1​


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

That would certainly make Calaf look less like an idiot.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Moving to the opera forum, deleting the thread there (after copying reply).


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I think the ending suggested in this thread with it's supernatural explanation for Turandot's iceyness would make her a much more sympathetic character. However, it feels like a bit too much of a cop out to me. I think the opera would work better if Turandot were to gradually melt across the whole of act three. Rather than changing the ending I would cut the Ping Pang and Pong scene and make act two scene two a second scene to act one. Then I would make act three a second act and include a duet for Turandot and Calaf _before _Liu's death that would give Turandot a chance to start to melt. I think something along the lines of act one of Tristan where Tristan and Isolde supposedly fall in love because they drink a potion, but in actual fact it's clear they have already fallen in love and Isolde's anger at Tristan is the lady protesting too much. Turandot and Calef could have a theoretical discussion about love with him challenging Turandot's stance. By the end of the act he has won the argument, but it doesn't matter as more importantly the two have fallen in love.

This is pretty much the actual story of Turandot only given enough time for Turandot's change of heart to be more convincing.

N.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I just read an article today about this issue. 

*Solving the “Turandot” Riddle*
Barrie Kosky’s new Puccini staging at the Dutch National Opera rehabilitates the unfinished opera.

Here are the main points, but the entire article is worth reading.

First, he takes the opera out of the bowdlerized, faux-China setting that countless production designers have entombed it in. 

Second, he takes the unfinished title character of Turandot off the stage completely. She was heard loud and clear from the rafters at the Dutch National Opera (thanks to soprano Tamara Wilson’s blazing performance, sung with piercing clarity), but she was not seen until curtain call. 

The third crucial change Kosky makes is to set the opera on a bare stage with mirrored walls, with all the characters in dark, drab modern dress. 

The fourth and main thing Kosky has done is ditch the Alfano ending completely—and the intermissions as well. The opera runs through all three acts without intermissions and ends with the mob—who open “Turandot” wanting blood—grieving the death of Liù, who defends Calaf’s life by sacrificing her own. This is a believable shift, unlike the wild swing of Turandot from ice princess to warm romantic lead in the Alfano ending. By making the chorus and Liù more prominent from the first minute, Kosky makes the tragedy of the opera complete.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

SanAntone said:


> I just read an article today about this issue.
> 
> *Solving the “Turandot” Riddle*
> Barrie Kosky’s new Puccini staging at the Dutch National Opera rehabilitates the unfinished opera.
> ...


Can somebody do a similar thing to Ernani, please ?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

How about she wakes up and 'it was all a dream'?


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## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

A lot of interesting ideas about changing the entire structure of the opera, but my original query was sort of predicated on KEEPING Puccini's music and plot all the way until the very point where he stops writing. And then ditching/modifying the Alfano ending and substituting something better that works and fits with everything that came before.

Anyone have ideas about how this should be done?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I guess you didn't notice post #10. What you describe is essentially what that Dutch production did.


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## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> I guess you didn't notice post #10. What you describe is essentially what that Dutch production did.


I read it, the entire opera is changed. I'm interested in changing the opera after the point Puccini left it and leaving everything the same beforehand.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

oca2074 said:


> I read it, the entire opera is changed. I'm interested in changing the opera after the point Puccini left it and leaving everything the same beforehand.


No, the opera is not changed, except in costumes, and sets. The plot and music are unchanged except at the end when the Alfano ending is dropped and the opera ends with the crowd mourning the death of Liu.

But, whatever.


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## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> No, the opera is not changed, except in costumes, and sets. The plot and music are unchanged except at the end when the Alfano ending is dropped and the opera ends with the crowd mourning the death of Liu.
> 
> But, whatever.


But Turandot is offstage, there are no intermissions, and I'm not sure if the order of the music is changed from the original (the article only specifies that every note Puccini wrote was used.) Basically, this is a very different Turandot than what Puccini originally intended. I'm interested in finding an ending that Puccini himself would have thought, "Aha it works," and basically completing the opera as he envisaged it at the very end of his life with the happy love couple ending...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

The character Turandot has no real stage action in the original staging (other than in the Alfano ending), so putting her offstage does not alter the overall structure of the opera - and enhances her cold/remote persona. 

Removing the intermissions, just makes the opera more concise, leaving the opera unchanged. 

The article makes clear that the rest of the opera regarding music, plot, characters is unchanged, as well. 

If this Dutch production is not close to what you are looking for, then I have no idea what you want.


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## oca2074 (Oct 29, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> The character Turandot has no real stage action in the original staging (other than in the Alfano ending), so putting her offstage does not alter the overall structure of the opera - and enhances her cold/remote persona.
> 
> Removing the intermissions, just makes the opera more concise, leaving the opera unchanged.
> 
> ...


1) I want the happy ending as Puccini envisaged just before his death.
2) I want to keep the costumes, setting, stage directions, ect as Puccini envisaged it.
3) I want Turandot onstage, having Liu kill herself over Turandot when she isn't ever even seen by audiences is weird, can't wrap my head around it.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I want directors to keep their grubby little paws off!

If I’d written Turandot I’m as sure as shooting that I would be pretty hacked off at having my vision messed with. 😏


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

oca2074 said:


> ...having Liu kill herself over Turandot when she isn't ever even seen by audiences is weird, can't wrap my head around it.


But it makes it possible for whoever sings Turandot to have a microphone stuck halfway down her throat, and that's the important thing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

oca2074 said:


> The challenge is to make a better ending while keeping ALL of Puccini's music and stage directions up to the very end.
> 
> Basically, the premise is that Turandot has been possessed by the ghost of her ancestor for her entire life. In Act 2 Scene 2, Turandot actually references this. Here, this is literally the case and not merely metaphorically. She also admits to both loving and hating Calaf suggesting a split personality.
> 
> ...


I think this is interesting, though it might be hard to stage. It seems a convenient way of absolving the ice princess of responsibilty for being cruel. But does possession and control of a character's actions by external forces make the opera more interesting, or less? And does it have anything to do with Puccini's intentions? It's my understanding that the transformation of Turandot, her humanization (and Calaf's too), was a basic theme in his conception of the drama.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I always thought that this change in Turandot is unnatural and unconvincing. She has serious problem with her brains, I must say, she's incredibly close to an average serial murderer. Well, she doesn't severe heads by herself, but her state of mind is very suitable. Maybe it's possible to resolve this condition, but no less than extatic experience is needed. So, one more death, be it the only sympathetic character in the opera, or Calaf's awkward harassment are not enough. Brainwash is what she needs to "melt". In modern theater it's even possible. (I think people like Warlikowsky don't read us). She could be binded, gaged and forced to listen to something pretty atonal. Would audience still want to see if she married to Calaf?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> I always thought that this change in Turandot is unnatural and unconvincing.


It is, but the whole opera is unnatural. It's a fairy tale. The problem is that the death of Liu violates the fantasy; it's too natural and convincing. Liu becomes Cio Cio San, her torture and suicide pull us out of the fairy tale and into grim reality, and after we've experienced the pain of it and the extended musical lament is over we feel the behavior of Calaf and Turandot, which we accepted as pleasant fantasy up to that point, as shallow, callous and offensive.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> It is, but the whole opera is unnatural. It's a fairy tale. The problem is that the death of Liu violates the fantasy; it's too natural and convincing. Liu becomes Cio Cio San, her torture and suicide pull us out of the fairy tale and into grim reality, and after we've experienced the pain of it and the extended musical lament is over we feel the behavior of Calaf and Turandot, which we accepted as pleasant fantasy up to that point, as shallow, callous and offensive.


A computer game which turned out to be not care game.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

If (as per the rules of the OP) we can't change anything other than the ending, perhaps the best ending is for Calaf to realise that his infatuation with Turandot has cost too much and when at the end Turandot reveals that she hasn't discovered his name and so must submit to him, he sets her free and lets her go. As he leaves the stage she looks longingly after him.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> If (as per the rules of the OP) we can't change anything other than the ending, perhaps the best ending is for Calaf to realise that his infatuation with Turandot has cost too much and when at the end Turandot reveals that she hasn't discovered his name and so must submit to him, he sets her free and lets her go. As he leaves the stage she looks longingly after him.
> 
> N.


So all the triumphant music is about the Mongolian Men's Liberation Movement? Slogan: Don't lose your head over a woman.


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> If (as per the rules of the OP) we can't change anything other than the ending, perhaps the best ending is for Calaf to realise that his infatuation with Turandot has cost too much and when at the end Turandot reveals that she hasn't discovered his name and so must submit to him, he sets her free and lets her go. As he leaves the stage she looks longingly after him.
> 
> N.


"I love you, _too_, but we're not good for each other"


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> If (as per the rules of the OP) we can't change anything other than the ending, perhaps the best ending is for Calaf to realise that his infatuation with Turandot has cost too much and when at the end Turandot reveals that she hasn't discovered his name and so must submit to him, he sets her free and lets her go. As he leaves the stage she looks longingly after him.
> 
> N.


That's a different opera, which wasn't made yet. "Gone with the wind".


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## YusufeVirdayyLmao (Nov 13, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I think this is interesting, though it might be hard to stage. It seems a convenient way of absolving the ice princess of responsibilty for being cruel. But does possession and control of a character's actions by external forces make the opera more interesting, or less? And does it have anything to do with Puccini's intentions? It's my understanding that the transformation of Turandot, her humanization (and Calaf's too), was a basic theme in his conception of the drama.


I think it's easy to argue that the music itself is too lush and too ethereal for a "mere" "mundane" plot, and that giving an evocative supernatural component to:
-Turandot's compulsive evilness (possession, or curse, or enchantment),
-her riddles (Sphinx duh)
-Calaf's arrival as the one who'll break the spell and free the people of a scary tyrant; and
-him having a mysterious secret name, and the importance of it staying hidden (like Lohengrin) etc.

instead of all those things being an arbitrary game of whims, would, in a way, be like - well, like if the Commendatore had just been a vengeful father who recovered from his wounds and brought in a loyalist gang, and someone went like "wait, this music kinda desperately screams for him to be an undead statue and those other guys to be hell demons dragging Don Juan to the flames of hell, doesn't it? Like, literally, not just metaphorically or in "the musical subtext"" - would give it the epic intensity that it already has in this timeline, wouldn't it?



Productions do this sometimes - dark surreal stagings for La Calunnia (in Ponnelle's film Basilio literally turns into some kind of alchemist sorcerer with a burning jar), to match the unsettling tone of the music presumably;
the praying priestess from Aida becoming some kind of off-stage ghostly voice from beyond, in at least 1 prominent production;
creepy fog stuff floating around Monteron or Sparafucile; etc. (I'll try to post links later.)

And then why not also change some of the words, to remove the resulting contradiction and make it more believable?

Imo there's certainly a lot of value in doing things like this, and Turandot seems to be a great candidate for such a reinterpretation/alteration - whether at this level, or what OP proposed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

YusufeVirdayyLmao said:


> I think it's easy to argue that the music itself is too lush and too ethereal for a "mere" "mundane" plot, and that giving an evocative supernatural component to:
> -Turandot's compulsive evilness (possession, or curse, or enchantment),
> -her riddles (Sphinx duh)
> -Calaf's arrival as the one who'll break the spell and free the people of a scary tyrant; and
> -him having a mysterious secret name, and the importance of it staying hidden (like Lohengrin) etc.


I think you're reading too much into this fantasy tale. Turandot is not "possessed," she is nothing at all like a sphinx, Calaf doesn't break any spell - there is no spell, and Calaf is an oaf who accomplishes nothing - and he has no mysterious secret name which must remain hidden like Lohengrin's. The music is indeed lush and often wonderful, and it can make us feel that the story is deeper than it really is. Wagner's stories achieve psycho-mythical significance and have real depth and resonance. Puccini may have wanted to achieve something like that in _Turandot, _but I don't think he even comes close. Turandot sees Liu's love for Calaf (who doesn't deserve it) and she stops hating men. That's all there is to it, really. Just enjoy the music.


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## YusufeVirdayyLmao (Nov 13, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I think you're reading too much into this fantasy tale. Turandot is not "possessed," she is nothing at all like a sphinx, Calaf doesn't break any spell - there is no spell, and Calaf is an oaf who accomplishes nothing - and he has no mysterious secret name which must remain hidden like Lohengrin's. The music is indeed lush and often wonderful, and it can make us feel that the story is deeper than it really is. Wagner's stories achieve psycho-mythical significance and have real depth and resonance. Puccini may have wanted to achieve something like that in _Turandot, _but I don't think he even comes close. Turandot sees Liu's love for Calaf (who doesn't deserve it) and she stops hating men. That's all there is to it, really. Just enjoy the music.


Well my premise was that the text could be altered to fit the music's implied otherworldliness, not that it already did lol

(Turadfem and Caloaf lolol)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

YusufeVirdayyLmao said:


> Well my premise was that the text could be altered to fit the music's implied otherworldliness, not that it already did lol
> 
> (Turadfem and Caloaf lolol)


Ah yes, I see. Sounds like a good project for a retired person. I think there may be quite a few of us on the forum.


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## YusufeVirdayyLmao (Nov 13, 2021)

Yeah, would be cool if sth like this got done; certainly would appeal to audiences as well.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> So all the triumphant music is about the Mongolian Men's Liberation Movement? Slogan: Don't lose your head over a woman.


What music? The music for our new endings is newly composed. Can't you read the rules or do you think that Christmas starts on 25th December like our train drivers?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ewilkros said:


> "I love you, _too_, but we're not good for each other"


No! More like, what the Faxy have I done, Liu dead!!!??? I'm off!

N.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

The Conte said:


> What music? The music for our new endings is newly composed. Can't you read the rules or do you think that Christmas starts on 25th December like our train drivers?
> 
> N.


I’m sure our train drivers would understand the idea behind this thread, I think it is our government that might have trouble wrapping their heads around it.  They might, however, appreciate a re-write where Turandot, upon finding Calaf’s true name and that he is fleeing a war-torn country, deports him to Rwanda.


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