# Atonal/serial stuff that is rhythmic and lively



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Lack of tonality and serialism in itself presents a big challenge for a listener, but if the work in question is also slow or arhythmic then it's really difficult to get into it.
Heck, even for regular tonal works, I prefer faster movements and find them easier to remember. Slow movements can be beautiful, but often aren't as easily accessible.

So, to be able to get into atonal music, I am asking for recommendations of some livelier works.
Perhaps something as lively as Grosse Fuge, which I love, even though it's considered difficult, etc... Works like that, from 20th and 21st century, that's what I am looking for.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

There are dozens and dozens of other rhythmic/lively atonal and serialist works, but these three Boulez pieces came to mind first because I was actually just listening to them:


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Try George Perle, Eric Moe, Paul Moravec, Peter Lieberson.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Check out Varese's Hyperprism. I also find Stockhausen's Gesang der Junglinge hypnotic. Lutoslawski Symphony 4. Xenakis Pleiades is about as rhythmic as it comes


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Thanks all, will check this stuff tomorrow, it's already past my bedtime. So far I checked Boulez 12 notations for piano, and I find it really fresh and surprisingly accessible. Good stuff!


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Most of Schnittke is lively beyond belief. Try Concerto Grosso #1, String Quartet #3, Concerto for Piano and Strings, Viola Concerto, etc.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Schnittke's Concorto Grosso no. 1 is wonderful. Listening now.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Schoenberg - 5 Pieces for Orch - #s 1, 4 and 5 move along pretty well...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Bartok used to be considered "atonal" but not 12-tone. Miraculous Mandarin suite should be lively enough for anybody.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Can't believe I forgot to recommend these masterpieces in my last post. Probably some of the most rhythmic pieces written in the last century -- precisely because they're all about rhythm:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Schoenberg - 5 Pieces for Orch - #s 1, 4 and 5 move along pretty well...


I was relistening to this recently coincidentally and found it truly amazing. Supremely dramatic.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> I was relistening to this recently coincidentally and found it truly amazing. Supremely dramatic.


Yup, Schoenberg 5 pcs, excellent stuff....


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I think a lot of Elliott Carter would fit your description.

He is not a serialist, but uses atonality.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Here is pretty accessible piece by Joan Tower, that might fit the bill.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

John Corigliano is a very eclectic composer who employs tone rows in some of his music.

One example is his _Clarinet Concerto_.

According to Corigliano's program notes for the concerto the last movement employs two tone rows: http://johncorigliano.com/index.php?p=item2&sub=cat&item=21


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> John Corigliano is a very eclectic composer who employs tone rows in some of his music.
> 
> One example is his _Clarinet Concerto_.
> 
> According to Corigliano's program notes for the concerto the last movement employs two tone rows: http://johncorigliano.com/index.php?p=item2&sub=cat&item=21


The second movement (Scherzo) of his Piano Concerto is also based on a tone row and is stated many times in its entirety.

Also, I attended a lecture he gave at Harvard in the mid-1990s (I attended college just down the street) and he gave presentations on his opera _The Ghosts of Versailles_ and his _String Quartet_. He showed us a 12-tone matrix for _The Ghosts of Versailles_ he used to compose much of the piece. Interestingly, he used a lot of clever aleatoric procedures with the tone rows. For example, one technique was that he had written out the row for the woodwinds, then asked them to finger all the notes over and over again but only play certain notes in the row at their discretion (starting and stopping but continuously fingering) so as to get an effect of (I quote) "cigarette smoke disappearing and reappearing" in the air.

I saw a lecture online he gave on the clarinet concerto you mentioned and I recall him saying (I'm paraphrasing) that he often uses 12 tone rows to compose with because it is the best way to generate highly chromatic music. But he stated the trick to not make it sound 12 tone, but rather more tonal, was to repeat notes and groups of notes. I believe he is mistaken with that last part, as it buys into the "Myth of Non-Repetition" in 12 tone music. If you repeat notes and groups of notes in the tone row, it's still 12 tone music you are writing and sounds as such (there are countless examples).

I think it's interesting to think of him as a twelve tone composer. He would cringe and balk at using such a label, but it really does apply to much of his music.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

I don't know the difference between atonal/12 tones/serial. A work I remember right now that is atonal (according to Wikipedia) is the 8th string quartet by Villa-Lobos. Despite it's atonal, it sounds pretty well and those catchy rhythms are irresistible.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

For some inexplicable reason, I've heard all of Babbitt's major works except All Set. But I'm finally giving it a listen this morning and, oh boy, is this lively! This is exactly the kind of piece the OP wants:


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