# Which Volume of Bach's Clavier-Übung is Your Favorite? Why?



## tdc

Clavier-Übung I - 6 Partitas BWV 825-830
Clavier-Übung II - Italian Concerto BWV 971 and French Overture BWV 831
Clavier-Übung III - Prelude and Fugue BWV 552, 21 Chorale Preludes BWV 669-689, Four Duets BWV 802-805
Clavier-Übung IV - Goldberg Variations BWV 988

Personally I'm not sure what my favorite is. I like all of these, but am curious as to other TC members opinions. I suspect Volume IV is the most popular.


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## Bulldog

I hate to take a pass on the Goldbergs, but I have to go with Clavier-Übung III which I consider Bach's greatest body of organ works. It's a 5-course gourmet meal that never disappoints.


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## Mandryka

All these Clavier Ubung collections have a French overture type piece in the middle. I wonder if there are any other shared structural things and why, what the overture means. Art of Fugue, the cyclic manuscript version, has a French style piece in the middle too, which may suggest that it’s a Clavier Ubung too, CU5.

This phrase Clavier Ubung is something that Johann Kuhnau uses, Kuhnau wrote a collection of sonatas and partitas called Neuer Clavier Ubung which I think Bach knew, the partitas in Book 2 (1692) of Kuhnau’s CU makes me think of Bach. I don’t know how common the idea of a Clavier Ubung was. 

I recommend the partitas in Khunau’s NCU2 to people who enjoy The French Suites. There’s an excellent recording by Fernando de Luca, using a wonderful if anachronistic harpsichord (Christian Vater 1738) 

Re Bulldog’s favourite, one thing I’ve never understood is why the duetti are in there, or indeed the prelude and fugue. It does seem to be a bit of a hotchpotch.


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Re Bulldog's favourite, one thing I've never understood is why the duetti are in there, or indeed the prelude and fugue. It does seem to be a bit of a hotchpotch.


I agree about the duetti, but I find St. Anne's Prelude and Fugue the perfect bookends.


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## tdc

The duets from volume III are the only pieces from any of the volumes that are less demanding to play. They may have been included for that purpose - for the beginner and to be accessible to a broader range of customers.


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## Mandryka

tdc said:


> The duets from volume III are the only pieces from any of the volumes that are less demanding to play. They may have been included for that purpose - for the beginner and to be accessible to a broader range of customers.


That doesn't sound like the sort of thing Bach does!

Anyway is it really true (you may be right) that the manualiter chorales are difficult? They can be played I think on a single keyboard.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> That doesn't sound like the sort of thing Bach does!


I suspect you are probably right, I doubt that was the motivation. But one should remember Bach published these volumes out of his own pocket, and recruited his own distributers. It was a fairly expensive undertaking so he likely wanted to recover his costs.

The duets are in ascending keys (E to A in symmetric modes). There is certainly a well thought out layout to the work, the duets and twenty one chorales being framed by that prelude and fugue.



Mandryka said:


> is it really true (you may be right) that the manualiter chorales are difficult? They can be played I think on a single keyboard.


I haven't attempted to play them, but from what I have read they are difficult.


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## tdc

Some additional information on Bach's _Clavier-Übung_ from Christoph Wolff:

"The well-thought-out design of the _Clavier-Übung_ series is mirrored in the careful planning of its individual parts, each of which represents a well-rounded entity often featuring fine-tuned subunits. In part I, all six partitas conform to the same basic suite scheme (Allemande-Courante-Sarabande-Gigue), but each one pursues the principle of variety in its own way; each begins with a distinctive opening movement (from Praeludium to Toccata) and then presents different choices of gallantry pieces (from dances to character pieces such as Scherzo and Burlesca).

In part II, the two predominant national styles are contrasted in more than one way: three-movement concerto form versus eleven-movement suite structure; F major versus B minor, that is, opposite models compounded by the tritone interval between them (attained by transposing the earlier C minor version of the _French Overture_).

Part III exhibits a multilevel formal organization, held together by the frame of an overture-like prelude and a fugue with three subjects, both for full organ. Corresponding to these two pieces are four duets for organ without pedal, in ascending keys (E to A, in symmetric modes). The overall framing device embraces twenty-one chorales. A first group consists of nine settings of strophic German versifications of the Kyrie "fons bonitatis" (three large _stile antico_ chorales with migrating cantus firmi from soprano to pedal, followed by three miniature settings of the same melodies) and the Gloria (three trios in ascending keys, from F to A), with the central piece a pedal trio. A second group of twelve chorales (each of the six large-scale Catechism hymns with a corresponding small-sized pendant) features a subgroup comprising two canonic cantus firmus settings and a setting for full organ as centrepiece, and a second subgroup comprising two pieces with pedal cantus firmus and another centrepiece with full organ. The inclusion of smaller, less demanding settings made the collection more accessible to a broader circle of customers.

Finally, part IV as a large scale but unified performing cycle contrasts with the character of the preceding parts. Here, a chain of thirty variations is placed between an opening aria and its repetition at the end, which mark both the point of departure and the point of arrival for the work. An overture designates the beginning of the second half of the cycle (thereby fulfilling the same "symbolic" function as the overture opening Partita No. 4 does in part I). The internal variations are punctuated by canons that end each of the ten threefold groups of pieces; the canons themselves are arranged in ascendingly ordered imitation intervals, from unison to ninth, leading up to the quodlibet, with its several tuneful melodies fancifully combined, as a relaxed culmination."


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## thejewk

I've been listening to all four volumes of the Clavier Ubung recently, and enjoying them all thoroughly as a body of work. I could honestly spend years just with these four sets.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> All these Clavier Ubung collections have a French overture type piece in the middle. I wonder if there are any other shared structural things and why, what the overture means. Art of Fugue, the cyclic manuscript version, has a French style piece in the middle too, which may suggest that it's a Clavier Ubung too, CU5.


Recently it struck me, tha even the WTC book II contains a French ouverture style piece in the middle (the F-sharp major prelude).



Mandryka said:


> I recommend the partitas in Khunau's NCU2 to people who enjoy The French Suites. There's an excellent recording by Fernando de Luca, using a wonderful if anachronistic harpsichord (Christian Vater 1738)


Is it actually available, and where?


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Anyway is it really true (you may be right) that the manualiter chorales are difficult? They can be played I think on a single keyboard.


Most of the manualiter chorales are rather easy to play - and also easier than the duetto's.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> Recently it struck me, tha even the WTC book II contains a French ouverture style piece in the middle (the F-sharp major prelude).


CU V



premont said:


> Is it actually available, and where?


https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/johann-kuhnau-neuer-clavier-ubung-fernando-de-luca/pe8bbjr8j8v4b


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> CU V


And AoF CÜ VI?



Mandryka said:


> https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/johann-kuhnau-neuer-clavier-ubung-fernando-de-luca/pe8bbjr8j8v4b


This road is not possible to me.


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> I recommend the partitas in Khunau's NCU2 to people who enjoy The French Suites. There's an excellent recording by Fernando de Luca, using a wonderful if anachronistic harpsichord (Christian Vater 1738)


Just finished listening to all the samples on the website you linked to - highly enjoyable (and I love Bach's French Suites). Thanks much.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I think CUIII may be the greatest, most impressive, and most summary; but I favor the Goldbergs by the slightest margin. But the partitas are not far behind at all. I think that they are Bach’s most consistently overlooked set of works, and IMO they form a narrative “cycle” in the same way that CUIII and the Goldbergs do.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Just finished listening to all the samples on the website you linked to - highly enjoyable (and I love Bach's French Suites). Thanks much.


When Kuhnau's good he's very very good. The problem is, he's not reliably on top form. When he's bad, he's boring.


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## Mandryka

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I think CUIII may be the greatest, most impressive, and most summary; but I favor the Goldbergs by the slightest margin. But the partitas are not far behind at all. I think that they are Bach's most consistently overlooked set of works, and IMO they form a narrative "cycle" in the same way that CUIII and the Goldbergs do.


I'm not convinced by this idea that CUIII is a "narrative cycle"


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## pianozach

*Which Volume of Bach's Clavier-Übung is Your Favorite? Why?
*
10

Because it's loud and you can hear it all very clearly.

:devil:


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## tdc

Actually volume in that sense is one thing that creates a small problem for me with CU III, depending on the timbre that is being used on the organ some of the pieces are much louder than others. Its not anything against the music, but I will be listening away at a comfortable volume, and then receive a bit of a shock when a follow up piece seems about 3 times louder than the one preceding it. Its an annoyance related to my tinnitus. There are 5 pieces in a row in the middle that I often listen to because they all have the timbre and volume I enjoy listening to organ music with, BWV 681-685. I'm guilty of often just listening to those 5 pieces and then moving on to something else. 

That said I find some of Bach's finest music in CU III, so in no way is this a criticism of the music itself.


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## FastkeinBrahms

I think that some preferences, at least mine, are also informed by the fact whether you are also a pianist/harpsichordist/organist. As a - truly execrable - piano player I enjoy nothing more than failing at the Italian Concerto, which I have for over 30 years now, hardly getting better but never getting tired or bored by this music. The last movement belongs to the most joyous things he ever wrote. However, if I had to choose a frontrunner, this would definitely be the Goldberg Variations, although 75% of those are beyond my technical abilities. In my opinion, very few of Bach's keyboard works, if any, weave a richer tapestry of both formal and emotional variety.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Just finished listening to all the samples on the website you linked to - highly enjoyable (and I love Bach's French Suites). Thanks much.


It is enjoyable, but going back to a Bach partita this morning, the C minor, made me realise how much better Bach is!


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## ORigel

1. Iv
2. Ii
3. Iii
4. I


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## SanAntone

I don't listen to Bach according to the organization of the Clavier-Übung. In fact, I can say I've never thought of those groupings at all.

I listen to _The Goldberg Variations_, _Well-Tempered Clavier_, the _Six Partitas_, the _French and English Suites_, the _Inventions and Sinfonias,_ the _Art of Fugue_, and I'll include _The Musical Offering_ in this list ... a lot. Not the organ music.

Bach's keyboard music (along with the _Cello Suites_ and _Violin Solo Sonatas and Partitas_) makes up the majority of my classical listening.


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