# Recognising the influence of one composition when listening to another



## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I'm not an experienced listener of classical music, but recently I was listening to the second movement of Haydn's string quartet op.76 in e flat, and it struck me that it sounded very similar to Elgar's Nimrod from his Enigma Variations. Here's the piece below:






This also isn't the first time I've heard one piece in another: listening to Haydn's piano sonata no.24 I recognised him briefly using a motif from the Summer movement of Vivaldi's Four Seasons, I think as a joke(?). And there's a (very famous example I'm sure) in Mozart's piano concerto no.25, where it's obvious to me that the melody sounds like the Marseillaise.

So a few questions: am I right in suspecting that Elgar used Haydn's piece when writing Nimrod? Is it fairly common to pick up in these influences and references in various pieces when listening to classical music regularly? And does it sometimes annoy you that a certain composer is being 'derivative' or do these recognitions bring you pleasure?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

The Haydn String Quartet sounds similar at the beginning of the clip to Nimrod, but returns back to the same chord, while Nimrod keeps progressing, so I don't think it is derived from the Haydn. I'm not familiar with the other examples. For me the clearest "knockoff" is fugue in Kyrie Eleison Mozart's Requiem from Handel's Messiah "And by his stripes we are healed".


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Some quotations are meant (there's a famous quote from the Halleluiah Chorus in Beethoven's Missa Solemnis), some are unconscious, and some are just a function of there being a comparatively limited number of notes/chords/progressions in diatonic music. (It is much more likely that two composers will independently come up with the same theme than that two writers will accidentally start a novel with "Call me Ishmael.")


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Phil loves classical said:


> The Haydn String Quartet sounds similar at the beginning of the clip to Nimrod, but returns back to the same chord, while Nimrod keeps progressing, so I don't think it is derived from the Haydn. I'm not familiar with the other examples. *For me the clearest "knockoff" is fugue in Kyrie Eleison Mozart's Requiem from Handel's Messiah "And by his stripes we are healed".
> *


This subject was often used in the Baroque, the next example I can mention is the a-minor fugue of JS Bach's WTC book II.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I didn’t know that. But it seems to me the Mozart is more strikingly similar to then Handel in the countersubjects, voice placement


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## Joe B (Aug 10, 2017)

Charles Ives was well known for infusing different melodies into his works. I listened to his String Quartets #1 & #2 on my commute today. #2 has several sections where you suddenly start hearing popular tunes of the times or church hymns that Ives played on the organ when younger. He does the same thing in some of his symphonies.
Howard Hanson's "Song of Democracy" steals chords from his early symphonies.
I'm sure others here will list many more. Your question of whether or not this annoys me or brings me pleasure must be answered, "Brings me pleasure." I've always loved being able to pick out a series of chords that I know were taken from elsewhere. What annoys me is when I can't place where I recognize it from.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Listen to Gounod's first symphony and then Bizet's symphony.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> Listen to Gounod's first symphony and then Bizet's symphony.


This is supposedly why Bizet hid his symphony away. Oddly, today it is heard more often than Gounod's.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Franck's Symphony in D minor was influenced by Brahms's Third, which predated it by two years. The "dream sequence" reprises of the principal first movement themes in the finales is the link.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Here's a dilly. Compare this passage from the 4th movement of Brahms' 2nd Symphony:






With the opening of Mahler's 1st:






Brahms' 1877 work predated Mahler's by about a decade.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Thanks for the interesting replies!


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Here's a dilly. Compare this passage from the 4th movement of Brahms' 2nd Symphony:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not quite as close, but also check opening of Mahler's First against opening of Beethoven's Fourth!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Funny said:


> Not quite as close, but also check opening of Mahler's First against opening of Beethoven's Fourth!


That sequence of falling fourths has had a long and diverse career. Benjamin Britten:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The opening of Mahler's Fifth Symphony uses the same rhythmic figure as the unique opening of the Beethoven Fifth Symphony.

Charles Ives is absolutely OBSESSED with the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony as it pervades his wonderful Concord Piano Sonata.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Duplicate post.


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

hpowders said:


> The opening of Mahler's Fifth Symphony uses the same rhythmic figure as the unique opening of the Beethoven Fifth Symphony.


Beethoven's opening is unique, yes, but the rhythmic figure sure isn't, since Haydn used it prominently in the vast majority of his symphonies.

Oh, right, I forgot. "I learned nothing from Haydn."


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Between 1869 and 1887, Borodin wrote Prince Igor. From Act II, Borodin's melody of the Polovtsian Dances is given a lively variation by Glazunov in the 2nd movement of his 3rd Symphony. That was in 1890. Then, in 1903 Gliere used Borodin's theme again a little over two minutes into the first movement of his String Octet. (BTW if you get a chance, listen to this amazing work by a very young Gliere - just a great and melodious work!) There are so many wonderful examples of homage being paid to earlier masters. It's a laugh out loud moment when you hear Rossini's William Tell Overture about a minute and a half into Shostakovich's 1st movement of his 15th Symphony! I never see it as a problem when a composer uses a measure or two from another composer. I simply see it as paying homage.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

At about 2:15 into Tan Dun's "Internet Symphony" you can hear Beethoven's "Eroica." A fun and catchy little work.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata made a huge impression on Schubert, Mendelssohn and Brahms. They all paid homage:

Schubert - Wanderer Fantasy, 1st Mov't, Allegro Con Fuoco; D 760
Mendelssohn - Piano Sonata No. 3 in B Flat Major, Op. 106; 1st Mov't, Allegro
Brahms - Piano Sonata No. 1 in C Major, Op. 1; 1st Mov't, Allegro

But how different each piece is from Beethoven's original Hammerklavier Sonata, the progenitor!


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Grieg's Piano Concerto is thought to be modeled on or influenced by Schumann's Piano Concerto. The most obvious indications of this are the choice of key and the opening gestures of the respective first movements, but there are more general stylistic similarities between the two works as well.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

As a side note, it might be worth distinguishing between "influence" and "quotation," as examples of both have been cited in this thread. They're not always the same, though of course there is some overlap. The Ives and Tan Dun examples cited above seem closer to quotations than influence, I think, while the Franck/Brahms example seems closer to influence than quotation to me. The Grieg/Schumann example seems somewhere in between.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Sometimes they are explicit about the "borrowing", e.g, The Variations on a Theme by Joseph Haydn by Johannes Brahms. I was listening to Brahms's sextet the other day and I heard a brief melody from one of Haydn's symphonies. But the whole passage was very much a variation and extension, not a rip off!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Then there's the musical "Kismet," whose relationship to all kinds of themes from Borodin is extraordinary.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Robert Schumann was obsessed with Beethoven's music, particularly the late piano sonatas. You can hear this influence in Schumann's Fantasie in C. Could Schumann have written this without Beethoven's Hammerklavier ringing in his ears? I doubt it.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Mal said:


> Sometimes they are explicit about the "borrowing"


In other cases, the borrowing is not "explicit" but can be inferred. Poulenc often discussed (practically boasted) his borrowings from other composers, and while he did not necessarily identify each and every single one, any specific instance where his music and resembles someone else's is usually considered an example of borrowing. A great example is the third movement of his _Un soir de niège_, "Bois muertri," which begins with a brief chord progression that appears to be lifted from Ravel's opera _L'enfant et les sortilèges_. As far as I know, Poulenc never attributed this specific passage to Ravel, but considering that the title of Poulenc's movement is "Wounded Tree" and that the Ravel passage concerns a scene with a wounded tree, it seems a good bet that the Poulenc passage is a bonafide instance of borrowing.

On the other end of the spectrum is musical "recycling," or just flat-out stealing. Handel is the most notorious example here, as he candidly admitted to plagiarizing other composers' music. A fun example is the last movement of Telemann's Violin Concerto in B-flat Major, composed around 1710:






The opening theme reappears intact in the Allegro of Handel's Overture in D Major, composed about a dozen years later. The relevant bit comes at about the 2:09 mark:






And then, for good measure, Handel uses it again in the overture to _Ottone_, composed the same year as the above overture. Fast forward to about the 1:14 mark:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Humperdinck Hänsel und Gretel. The best immitation ever of a Wagnerian opera.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

When asked about the impact Arensky might have on the music world, Rimsky-Korsakov replied dismissively that Arensky would be forgotten. And, R-K implied that Arensky had been way too influenced by Tchaikovsky, and sounded too much like him. Is this a fair assessment?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Robert Schumann was obsessed with Beethoven's music, particularly the late piano sonatas. You can hear this influence in Schumann's Fantasie in C. Could Schumann have written this without Beethoven's Hammerklavier ringing in his ears? I doubt it.


Schumann's Fantasie in C has a direct quotation from Beethoven's song cycle _An die ferne Geliebte_. Schumann didn't point this out in the score, and it wasn't noticed until 1910!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasie_in_C_(Schumann)


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