# Final Round:Ch'ella mi creda. Fanciulla. Corelli, Pertile, Del Monaco



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

You may have trouble picking a winner!


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

They're all excellent, but Del Monaco is tremendous here.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Del Monaco’s voice seems to be recorded with greater fidelity than those of Pertile and Corelli. Nevertheless, I choose Corelli, to whose voice I’m most attracted.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

This was indeed difficult. But before I opine I need to take a moment to contemplate, in melancholy silence, the probable absence of any tenor voice, anywhere on earth today, of the magnitude of any of these three.

[....................................................................................]

There. Now I'll cast my vote for the one of the three who doesn't look like a movie star, for reasons that are mainly stylistic. Corelli seems incapable of hitting a single note straight on; it's no great drawback here, as it unfortunately is in other repertoire (especially French), but it's nonetheless a mannerism I could do with less of. Del Monaco seems to be reciting an epic poem for folks at the back of an amphitheater, and taking a very long, slow time doing it. Pertile, from what I can hear through the dim, foggy recording, is at least the vocal equal of either of the others, and his shaping of the notes seems exemplary. I wish we could hear him better.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

In creating a contest I feel very good if there is such a wide variety of opinion among three such knowledgeable members I like close races.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

They are all perfect for this role so I thought I Would like each rendition a bit more than I did. Did not expect Pertile to be sobbing away here. Hoped Delmonaco wouldn't but he did. Couldn't tell if Corelli had a little weirdness in his top or if it was the recording. Would have preferred Franco more straight forward but I think he's doing everything for good reasons. He feels invested and that sound at the opening lines, which sounds absolutely perfect for the character and situation - which is why I would have taken more of it just like that - makes this one Franco for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

What magnificent voices all. You certainly don't hear tenors like this anymore.

I found it very difficult to pick a winner as, stylistically, they are all quite similar and, in the case, of Corelli and Del Monaco you can certainly hear they gave the audience what they wanted. Though Pertile is much more dimly recorded and though he indulges in a surfeit of sobs at the end, I'm going to give him my vote, but it was very close.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> What magnificent voices all. You certainly don't hear tenors like this anymore.
> 
> I found it very difficult to pick a winner as, stylistically, they are all quite similar and, in the case, of Corelli and Del Monaco you can certainly hear they gave the audience what they wanted. Though Pertile is much more dimly recorded and though he indulges in a surfeit of sobs at the end, I'm going to give him my vote, but it was very close.


For me, Pertile was one of the great discoveries from Bonetan's contests. Do men ever cry in German opera or is it an Italian effect? I love it when men cry in movies and tv.. but they rarely sob.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> For me, Pertile was one of the great discoveries from Bonetan's contests. Do men ever cry in German opera or is it an Italian effect? I love it when men cry in movies and tv.. but they rarely sob.


Not sure how much, or if at all, sobbing shows up in German singers. I've always thought of it to be so much the terrain of the Italian tenor that when I first heard MacNeil give a kind of a half sob in the Nile scene of his Aida recording, I can remember going "A baritone???..... Sobbing?????" I'd think that an emotional German like Tauber might be a candidate.

But the question it makes me think of - and I'd guess more appropriately discussed on a thread rather than fill your contest - is " at what point does sobbing become a real minus?" I think sometimes I turn off too quickly with the first bit of a sob.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Not sure how much, or if at all, sobbing shows up in German singers. I've always thought of it to be so much the terrain of the Italian tenor that when I first heard MacNeil give a kind of a half sob in the Nile scene of his Aida recording, I can remember going "A baritone???..... Sobbing?????" I'd think that an emotional German like Tauber might be a candidate.
> 
> But the question it makes me think of - and I'd guess more appropriately discussed on a thread rather than fill your contest - is " *at what point does sobbing become a real minus?*" I think sometimes I turn off too quickly with the first bit of a sob.


At the point where you don't like it. Extra-musical effects that can be effective in the theater don't always work on recordings. What works for me might not work for you. So.. Is this really an issue?


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> At the point where you don't like it. Extra-musical effects that can be effective in the theater don't always work on recordings. What works for me might not work for you. So.. Is this really an issue?


I think it could be.

In final measure EVERYTHING comes down to what the listener likes or doesn't. "*what works for me might not work for you. ". * But trends, like the quantity of head-voice in a soprano's technique, get discussed because when one answer shows up as a trend, listeners can start to feel that it is creating a lot of singers with the same quality....in this case it has been addressed as a lack of vocal identity....by most reckoning, a negative trend.

John Steane felt the period following the Caruso golden age - say 30's and 40's - saw a general decline in the *artistic standards *of Italian opera singing...not vocal. Aspirates ( God he goes on about them!!!) and sobbing would be major contributors to the artistic shortcomings he mentions. I'm not saying I always agree with him...he has great trouble at times with Pertile whom I feel most admire greatly....but his contentions make me reconsider what I find effective.

The present tenor contest brought it up. I genuinely thought, does the Delmonaco sobbing at the end bring down the quality of the rendition that much? I truly did! And a lot depends on how I'm listening Enjoying Delmonacos voice?.....not so much. Paying attention to a scene from the opera?....and this came up because of the parts of the scene that Seattleoperafan included ( very nice!) with other characters singing and acting....now I care more. Now I like Ramirez/Johnson having a little more Gary Cooper dignity to him and the sobbing doesn't really do it for me.

Soooo.....an issue???.......yeah! I think it could be considered an issue.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> In final measure EVERYTHING comes down to what the listener likes or doesn't. "*what works for me might not work for you." *


Everything? I disagree.



> But trends, like the quantity of head-voice in a soprano's technique, get discussed because when one answer shows up as a trend, listeners can start to feel that it is creating a lot of singers with the same quality....in this case it has been addressed as a lack of vocal identity....by most reckoning, a negative trend.
> 
> John Steane felt the period following the Caruso golden age - say 30's and 40's - saw a general decline in the *artistic standards *of Italian opera singing...not vocal. Aspirates ( God he goes on about them!!!) and sobbing would be major contributors to the artistic shortcomings he mentions. I'm not saying I always agree with him...he has great trouble at times with Pertile whom I feel most admire greatly....but his contentions make me reconsider what I find effective.


Matters of vocal technique - how to use the vocal mechanism so that the voice fulfills its potentialities and meets the challenges of music - are not mere questions of personal taste. Voices are well-developed and work well or they don't. By contrast, the effectiveness or appropriateness of extramusical expressive effects such as sobs to a particular work or style is a much more subjective matter.



> The present tenor contest brought it up. I genuinely thought, does the Delmonaco sobbing at the end bring down the quality of the rendition that much? I truly did! And a lot depends on how I'm listening Enjoying Delmonacos voice?.....not so much. Paying attention to a scene from the opera?....and this came up because of the parts of the scene that Seattleoperafan included ( very nice!) with other characters singing and acting....now I care more. *Now I like Ramirez/Johnson having a little more Gary Cooper dignity to him and the sobbing doesn't really do it for me.*


That's a legitimate view of the role and aria in question. Other legitimate views would be that overt, public expressions of emotion by men were more normal in 1910 than they subsequently became and were not considered signs of weakness, and that Gary Cooper was emotionally constipated.

I'm pretty indifferent to the sobs, and I enjoy seeing a woman getting the better of men for a change, especially in a Puccini opera.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Well, I can support both views and it really boils down to my personal preference. All three tenors are delivering the goods, but that sudden gasp from Del Monaco is way too theatrical! I prefer his later studio run with Tebaldi, that whole final scene is one hell of a ride!
In the end I'd vote for Franco - emotional but dignified - which only makes this scene more powerful in my opinion.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Perhaps you can tell me how you drop your responses into the text so neatly. It really works well. 
Some of my responses are in the box and some at the end....I'll get there:lol:



woodduck said:


> *everything? I disagree.*
> 
> I'd need to hear more to respond.
> 
> ...


.

I've heard this aria for a long time and have a sense of whats going on, but I don't know the opera yet. Agree COMPLETELY with your take on strong women...part of why I think I'd like Fanciulla.

But details aside, and acknowledging the different standards of time and nationalistic temperaments, I don't think extra musical expressive devices are not worth discussion...the initial point.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Perhaps you can tell me how you drop your responses into the text so neatly. It really works well.
> Some of my responses are in the box and some at the end....


I'm not sure how others do it, but when I want to interweave quotes with comments I simply place [/QUOTE] at the end of a quoted passage and


> at the beginning. That generates the blue quotation box. (I had to reverse the positions of those in that sentence so that my post wouldn't produce an unwanted quotation box).


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I have not yet read others' posts but have the tiniest suspicion that I shall once again reign in my little corner. 
It was a toss up between an impeccable Corelli -- one that I happen to be more familiar with than the others, but I knew after listening to all 3 that for me it was an easy toss to say goodbye to the very powerful voice of del Monaco but not particularly arousing in me any pathos.
Then we come to Pertile and suddenly his utterance of "Minnie" got ahold of me and wouldn't let go. Truly Corelli deserves it as well but I am giving my vote to the one who captured my emotions with true feeling.
The music in this Puccini opera is absolutely heart-grabbing for me. I find it to be one of his top masterpieces.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Not sure how much, or if at all, sobbing shows up in German singers. I've always thought of it to be so much the terrain of the Italian tenor that when I first heard MacNeil give a kind of a half sob in the Nile scene of his Aida recording, I can remember going "A baritone???..... Sobbing?????" I'd think that an emotional German like Tauber might be a candidate.
> 
> But the question it makes me think of - and I'd guess more appropriately discussed on a thread rather than fill your contest - is " at what point does sobbing become a real minus?" I think sometimes I turn off too quickly with the first bit of a sob.


Wehn it comes to sobs and aspirates, generally I'm against them and find them rather vulgar. It is possible to create intensity and emotion without resorting to sobs, glottal stops, aspirates and all those other tricks of the _verismo_ singer. To me, the singer just ends up sounding hammy.

Take Richard Tucker, who appears in Callas's recordings of *La Forza del Destino* and *Aida*. The voice is magnificent, but I've always felt that the way he sobs and aspirates his way through quite a lot of each role sounds like someone doing an impression of how they think an Italian tenor should sound.

Before Jon Vickers took on the Wagner roles, he sang a great deal of Italian opera, and his *Otello* was of course one of the glories of the age, but you will hardly ever, if at all, hear him introduce a sob or an aspirate to indicate emotion, yet he creates intensity and emotion just through the sound of his voice. I don't know if anyone knows the wonderfu recital of Italian arias he recorded with Serafin in the early 1960s. Here's an example from the album, but I could almost have picked anything. Vickers is magnificent and wrings every last ounce of emotion out of the aria, but not a single sob or aspirate is to be heard.






On the subject of aspirates, Walter Legge was known to be particularly intolernt of them. Schwarzkopf recalled that at one recording session, he took Callas aside and told her she was introducing aitches. Callas was quite suprised and retorted, Me? Never," but he played back the section to her and he was right. "Give me today off. I'll be back tomorrow and will have solved the problem," which, according to Schwarzkopf, is exactly what she did. Schwarzkopf gave it as an example of Callas's work ethic, "for it is extremely difficult to eliminate a bad habit once it's started, but you never again heard Callas insert an aitch."

Tenors aren't the only culprits and female singers, even those with a generally superb legato line, like Tebaldi, will do so to denote emotion at key moments. I'm afraid I don't like it. To me it just makes the singer sound like a hammy actor.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Wehn it comes to sobs and aspirates, generally I'm against them and find them rather vulgar. It is possible to create intensity and emotion without resorting to sobs, glottal stops, aspirates and all those other tricks of the _verismo_ singer. To me, the singer just ends up sounding hammy.
> 
> Take Richard Tucker, who appears in Callas's recordings of *La Forza del Destino* and *Aida*. The voice is magnificent, but I've always felt that the way he sobs and aspirates his way through quite a lot of each role sounds like someone doing an impression of how they think an Italian tenor should sound.
> 
> ...


Vickers is awesome! Main stream Italian arias often aren't my favorite arena for him but everything you said about his emotional connection and the absence of un-wanted effects makes the piece work!

I think sobbing can be an emotional short cut. A singer wants to create an emotional life for the character and wants the audience to "get it". If they doubt the impact of their rendition - from the dramatic side - they may possibly feel the sobs can help. But I don't recall ever being brought more into the characters emotional life because of a sob. A new way of phrasing something though...that can!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

What we have here are three awful recordings when it comes to sonics with three similar performances. Pertile may be the most interesting with just enough mix of strength and subtlety, but I can't hear how clear his vocal delivery is. This was difficult, but I voted for Corelli.

N.


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