# Poll: James Brown or Parliament -Funkadelic?



## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Whos got the funk?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

While Clinton seems like more fun to hang with, going with the Godfather here


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I could probably distil what I really like of JB's studio stuff onto about five discs as most of his albums were pretty spotty, plus he had an irritating penchant for recording new studio versions of older material which were usually inferior (God knows how many times he re-made _Please,_ _Please,_ _Please_). Another dubious habit was tacking audience noise onto studio tracks and passing them off as live ones. Negatives aside, the first three _Live at the Apollo_ albums are essential, so when adding those to the studio tracks of choice at least that bulks things out somewhat.

Parliament and Funkadelic were essentially an albums-oriented collective what with all with all the concepts and in-jokes, and between 1970 and 1979 had an excellent run.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Another vote for JB, not really close for me.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

JB had the style, the soul, and most importantly, Maceo (at least for a good while). 

As Tower of Power said:
You know, the more things change
The more they stay the same
It may be a different age
But I'm on the same page
Cause one thing that I've found
I'll still be diggin' on James Brown.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Parliament-Funkadelic for me - based not only on the inventiveness and innovation of each release but also on the inventiveness and innovation of each band member's nick-names -

William "Bootsy" Collins

Walter "Junie" Morrison

Garry "Diaperman" Shider

Michael "Kidd Funkadelic" Hampton

Jerome "Bigfoot" Brailey

Ramon "Tiki" Fulwood

"Billy Bass" Nelson

Cordell "Boogie" Mosson

Ray "Stingray" Davis

Clarence "Fuzzy" Haskins

"Shady Grady" Thomas

One can only surmise why George Clinton, Bernie Worrell and Eddie Hazel remained "George Clinton", "Bernie Worrell", and "Eddie Hazel"...

JB has the soul but P-F has the funk - it's a crucial difference - and that was the OP's original question.









Album after album - "Funkadelic" ('70), "Free Your Mind" ('70), "Maggot Brain" ('71), "America Eats Its Young" ('72), "Cosmic Slop" ('73), "Up for the Down Stroke ('74), "Mothership Connection ('75), "Hardcore Jollies" ('76), "Funkentelechy vs. the Placebo Syndrome" ('77), and "One Nation Under a Groove" created the template for all that followed - funk, hip-hop, post-disco etc.

It was more than "soul" or "funk" - Forward to the 4:24 mark where Eddie Hazel steps in and takes over the solo from Mike Hampton on "Maggot Brain" and channels Hendrix... and then they join together and you'll hear a guitar duo that ranks with the best of them all.






James Brown is indeed the "Godfather of Soul" and what he did he did better than anyone else but when it comes to pushing the artistic boundaries attempting to create something out of nothing that ever existed before then you have to got with P-F.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I vote for James Brown and I feel good about doing so.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Mollie John said:


> JB has the soul but P-F has the funk - it's a crucial difference - and that was the OP's original question.


How would you define the difference? Because James Brown started out in soul, but he is usually credited with originating funk. Get on the Good Foot and Sex Machine sound like funk to me. (Especially with Bootsy Collins in his pre-Funkadelic period on bass on Sex Machine.)


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Manxfeeder said:


> How would you define the difference? Because James Brown started out in soul, but he is usually credited with originating funk. Get on the Good Foot and Sex Machine sound like funk to me. (Especially with Bootsy Collins in his pre-Funkadelic period on bass on Sex Machine.)


I wouldn't question the genesis of funk but what is most important is what was done with it afterwards - craftsmanship elevated to artistry. P-F pushed the boundaries of funk out of all recognition - bent it completely out of shape - incorporated every other possible sub-genre into their compositions - transformed that into something entirely different and created something unique in the process.

From album to album (see above post) you could actually hear the progression and transformation that P-F was striving for - JB found that groove, perfected it, and stayed there - his forward momentum eventually coming to a halt with each subsequent release virtually indistinguishable from the previous.

When voting, I placed a higher valuation on inventiveness and innovation and consequently chose P-F based on their recordings compared to those of JB and concluded that they took the funk concept further than he did despite his having been the creator of this particular sub-genre of soul.

To each his own though, eh?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I could never really get into their records. I like Sly Stone's early stuff, and The Meters. And Dr John.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I never liked the music of James Brown or his over-the-top exhibitionism; never heard of P-F.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> I never liked the music of James Brown or his over-the-top exhibitionism; never heard of P-F.


Sounds like you might prefer some 50s Ray Charles. He's equally the Godfather of soul if James Brown is.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Sounds like you might prefer some 50s Ray Charles. He's equally the Godfather of soul if James Brown is.


Yes, Ray Charles is a big step in the right direction for me.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

“Hal Neely, former president of King Records, the most important label in Afro-American music for more than 20 years, told me that Stravinsky, in response to an interviewer’s question concerning his favourite composers, once replied ‘The three Bs.’ ‘The three Bs,’ Stravinsky is said to have explained, are Bach, Beethoven and Brown—James Brown. According to Neely, Stravinsky went on to say that James Brown should be considered one of the greatest composers of all time, that he was writing truly American music and portraying the American heritage" (p.199, African Rhythm and African Sensibility, John Miller Chernoff, University of Chicago Press, 1979)


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> I never liked the music of James Brown or his over-the-top exhibitionism; never heard of P-F.


The secret to listening to James Brown is, listen from the bottom up. Everyone from the bass up plays a groove, and James Brown's vocals are an extension of the rhythm section. At least that's what got me into his music.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Bwv 1080 said:


> 'The three Bs,' Stravinsky is said to have explained, are Bach, Beethoven and Brown-James Brown.


Son of a gun. I never knew that. As JB said, "Ain't that a groove?"


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

James brown...our Parliament is bloody useless.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Bwv 1080 said:


> "Hal Neely, former president of King Records, the most important label in Afro-American music for more than 20 years, told me that Stravinsky, in response to an interviewer's question concerning his favourite composers, once replied 'The three Bs.' 'The three Bs,' Stravinsky is said to have explained, are Bach, Beethoven and Brown-James Brown. According to Neely, Stravinsky went on to say that James Brown should be considered one of the greatest composers of all time, that he was writing truly American music and portraying the American heritage" (p.199, African Rhythm and African Sensibility, John Miller Chernoff, University of Chicago Press, 1979)


That's a genuinely interesting and informative quote but I'm having quite a bit of difficulty trying to find the original source of the quotation in which Stravinsky actually makes that particular statement whether verbatim or paraphrased.

Despite having done a fair and conscientious amount of research I can't find any evidence of the interview itself, the name of the interviewer, the date or location of the interview, or a direct ascertainable factual statement made by Stravinsky which would authenticate the veracity of that particular comment regarding Bach, Beethoven, and James Brown. No secondary or even tertiary sources of information for these statements can be found as the result of a reasonable effort to locate such.

Again, despite having searched diligently and in good faith all that I have discovered thus far are identical sources of verification in which Hal Neely tells John Miller Chernoff that this is what Stravinsky said without Neely actually providing a readily identifiable and thus verifiable source for this statement thus leading to a conclusion which suggests that the anecdote - while certainly entertaining - may actually be apocryphal.

I would require a primary source of verification (the original interview itself whether written or spoken rather than Neely's unsubstantiated claim) that would in fact adequately corroborate Stravinsky's having made the quotation referenced in order to accept this as a factual statement rather than as an apocryphal narrative.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Mollie John said:


> That's a genuinely interesting and informative quote but I'm having quite a bit of difficulty trying to find the original source of the quote in which Stravinsky actually makes that statement.
> 
> Despite having done a significant amount of research I can't find any evidence of the interview itself, the name of the interviewer, the date or location of the interview, or a direct ascertainable factual statement made by Stravinsky which would authenticate the veracity of that particular comment regarding Bach, Beethoven, and James Brown.
> 
> ...


Maybe so - have not seen any more than this either, Igor died in early 1971, so had some time to become familiar


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Stravinsky question comes up in this interesting interview but Brown doesn't address it directly in his answer. If Stravinsky ever did mention admiration for Brown I doubt he phrased it with the extreme hyperbole relayed by this interviewer.
https://www.interviewmagazine.com/music/new-again-james-brown


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

starthrower said:


> The Stravinsky question comes up in this interesting interview but Brown doesn't address it directly in his answer. If Stravinsky ever did mention admiration for Brown I doubt he phrased it with the extreme hyperbole relayed by this interviewer.
> https://www.interviewmagazine.com/music/new-again-james-brown


The phrase "Stravinsky said..." used in the question is drawn from the quote made by Hal Neely and told to John Miller Chernoff.

The Stravinsky quote in regards to the three B's (Bach, Beethoven, James Brown) cannot conclusively be attributed to Stravinsky by any other verifiable method and thus is to be considered apocryphal.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Anyway the phrase 'three B's' sounds too American to come from him. Can you imagine him saying that with his accent?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Mollie John said:


> The Stravinsky quote in regards to the three B's (Bach, Beethoven, James Brown) cannot conclusively be attributed to Stravinsky by any other verifiable method and thus is to be considered apocryphal.


Not to mention he was more likely to insult other musicians/composers than offer compliments.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

:tiphat: 

Interesting thread - I was wondering what the results would have been if James Brown had squared off against Ray Charles in a career-wide catalog v. catalog contest. 

Or James Brown v. Prince in the same format.

Stevie Wonder v. Marvin Gaye?

Temptations v. the Four Tops?

2Pac (Makaveli) v. The Notorious B.I.G.?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never cared for Prince's vocals or lovey dovey sex songs. I don't care how much talent he had. Marvin Gaye is a bit too slick as well. I'll take Stevie Wonder. And I think Michael Franti is a very talented songwriter working today. And he has a great band in Spearhead.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> ...James Brown started out in soul, but he is usually credited with originating funk.


You're right, of course. But I think that one could argue that the Meters were just as essential to the creation of funk as James Brown was. it's too bad that they seem to be so overlooked.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bluecrab said:


> You're right, of course. But I think that one could argue that the Meters were just as essential to the creation of funk as James Brown was. it's too bad that they seem to be so overlooked.


I was going to say, there was funk in New Orleans before James Brown. It started in the marching bands.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Miles Davis got the funk.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Red Terror said:


> Miles Davis got the funk.


So What -> Cold Sweat -> Bitches Brew


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

elgars ghost said:


> I could probably distil what I really like of JB's studio stuff onto about five discs as most of his albums were pretty spotty, plus he had an irritating penchant for recording new studio versions of older material which were usually inferior


I think he did that because he was a big Hawkwind fan and they do it all the time.


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