# Best Mahler 8th?



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Recommendations for Mahler's 8th Symphony please -or a pointer to where this was discussed if previously (the search engine didn't help!)

I already have the Rattle, Solti and Bernstein, but would be grateful for any pointers to other stonkingly good performances ...in stereo, please!
:tiphat:


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

dizwell said:


> Recommendations for Mahler's 8th Symphony please -or a pointer to where this was discussed if previously (the search engine didn't help!)
> 
> I already have the Rattle, Solti and Bernstein, but would be grateful for any pointers to other stonkingly good performances ...in stereo, please!
> :tiphat:


Always best to 'google' searches - 'talkclassical.com Mahler's 8th Symphony' brings up:

Mahler 8--Best Recording


----------



## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

This probably won’t be of much help as I only own two recordings of the “Symphony of a Thousand,” but I will weigh in here to recommend one of them: Michael Gielen/SWR Sinfonieorchester 1998. The interpretation, playing, vocal performances, and sound quality are all excellent IMHO. I prefer Gielen to my other recording - Ozawa/Boston SO - in every respect, and to other recordings I’ve heard parts of in most respects.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One question I have is how essential is it to have really large forces, as in the first performance. I believe Chailly and Dudamel used close to 1000 performers, I haven’t had the chance to listen to the results yet, the first performance used about 850.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have about a dozen (it's my least favourite Mahler symphony). I'd go for Gielen or Wit.


----------



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

janxharris said:


> Always best to 'google' searches - 'talkclassical.com Mahler's 8th Symphony' brings up:
> 
> Mahler 8--Best Recording


I _did_ Google, and yes that result came up for me... on page 2, now that you've made me check it again 

Well, anyway, according to that thread: it appears the Solti can't be beaten, so I'll guess I'll stick to what I know.

Edited to add: But I'm buying the Michael Gielen complete symphonies anyway, just in case.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

If you want new, just finished this one this afternoon, I am not saying it's unbeatable but certainly worth hearing.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

1. Horenstein, LSO with Joyce Barker (S) is the BEST recording in the history. (BBC Legends)
2. Rattle, Birmingham SO (EMI) the second best. 

(I have every single recording of the 8th in LP or CD format)


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I second Dimace that the Horenstein is a monumental event on record, a true demonstration of communal passion and commitment. It can be found on Volume 1 of "From the BBC Archive" which also contains an insane amount of old hidden gems from famous performers (I'm sure it's also available on its own, but I'm not sure where). The sound is very early stereo, and thus quite dim, but it still captures all the details very well. Also, there is an incredible amount of audience coughing and riproaring applause at the end, but don't let this deter you! The final Chorus Mysticus literally sounds like the heavens being torn asunder. It is also my least favorite of his symphonies, and I don't think that any performance could fully recreate the ambitious vision Mahler had in mind. But Horenstein comes awfully close.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Rogerx said:


> If you want new, just finished this one this afternoon, I am not saying it's unbeatable but certainly worth hearing.


(picture didn't render for me)


----------



## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I second Dimace that the Horenstein is a monumental event on record, a true demonstration of communal passion and commitment. It can be found on Volume 1 of "From the BBC Archive" which also contains an insane amount of old hidden gems from famous performers (I'm sure it's also available on its own, but I'm not sure where). The sound is very early stereo, and thus quite dim, but it still captures all the details very well. Also, there is an incredible amount of audience coughing and riproaring applause at the end, but don't let this deter you! The final Chorus Mysticus literally sounds like the heavens being torn asunder. It is also my least favorite of his symphonies, and I don't think that any performance could fully recreate the ambitious vision Mahler had in mind. But Horenstein comes awfully close.


OK. Order placed for the Horenstein, too!
Thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

janxharris said:


> (picture didn't render for me)


It's ; Mahler: Symphony No. 8

Angela Meade, Erin Wall, Lisette Oropesa (sopranos), Elizabeth Bishop, Mihoko Fujimura (contraltos), Anthony Dean Griffey (tenor), Markus Werba (baritone), John Relyea (bass)

Philadelphia Orchestra, Yannick Nézet-Séguin.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The best performance is not commercially available. It is Simon Rattle with the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain along with almost the same soloists as his CBSO recording...






As to the YNS, there are some very mixed views of it especially about the soloists who were apparently placed behind the orchestra and so had to really push it to be heard, with consequent effects on the singing quality ... especially Meade.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

First, the new DG recording from Philadelphia is getting pretty bad reviews everywhere.

Secondly, no recording, even Blu Ray, can capture the sound of this work. It's hard enough to record any Mahler well enough, but the sheer size of ensemble presents real problems in the 8th. For my taste, the one I keep going back to is an oldie - but in stereo - and that's Kubelik on DG. A non-sentimental interpretation, but one full of fire and drama. The coda of the first part is electrifying. And DG engineers did a remarkable job of balancing the forces. After all these decades it still sounds good and is one of the few that I can listen to with headphones. Another that I find quite good is Inbal on Denon.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Even when watching a performance from a live relay in a movie theatre it is clear that you lose something.

BTW, that live relay was Dudamel with the combined Los Angeles and Simon Bolivar orchestras, is available on DVD and seems to be very well regarded.


----------



## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Two interesting but definitely contentious articles written by the same author - the second is an expanded two page link -

Note the first article was written almost 4 years ago and so it should rightly be

*"110 Years Mahler Eighth: The Best Recordings"*...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jensla...hler-eighth-the-best-recordings/#184ab5987060

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no8-part-1.html

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/06/gustav-mahler-symphony-no8-part-2.html

Use the zoom function on your browser to increase the readability of the latter two.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Another vote for Horenstein, one of the great Mahler recordings. Of course the sound is not comparable to modern recordings.

Another great historical choice is Mitropoulos.

My favorite modern sound recording is Bernstein’s DG, taken from Salzburg in 1975. I believe he comes the closest of modern interpreters to balancing all the different elements.

And of course one cannot ignore the celebrated Solti. This recording truly blazes and impresses, even if it does not quite move me on the same level as the above.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Duncan said:


> Two interesting but definitely contentious articles written by the same author - the second is an expanded two page link -
> 
> Note the first article was written almost 4 years ago and so it should rightly be
> 
> ...


Dante neglected to create a place in Hell for critics such as this guy and David Hurwitz ... actually I would put Hurwitz one ring further down for his frequent, irrational spleen venting,


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Becca said:


> Dante neglected to create a place in Hell for critics such as this guy and David Hurwitz ... actually I would put Hurwitz one ring further down for his frequent, irrational spleen venting,


Ha! I knew without looking it would be Hurwitz. I have seen that awful review. The absolute worst thing about it is that he insults the people who do revere the recording. It's one thing to have a contrary opinion. It's another thing to explain away everyone who disagrees with you. It's a tragedy this man has so much influence with his reviews quoted all over the web.


----------



## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another vote for Horenstein, one of the great Mahler recordings. Of course the sound is not comparable to modern recordings.
> 
> Another great historical choice is Mitropoulos.
> 
> ...


There has been a terrific remastering of the Horenstein: https://www.pristineclassical.com/products/pasc440?_pos=1&_sid=67f185167&_ss=r


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Solti, Chailly, Bernstein are the best possible representation of M8 in anyone's collection.
Nagano recording is highly revered by many even though I find some faults with it (tenor spoils the fun for me) but your mileage with it may vary. Definitely check it out.

But one of the most amazing modern day renditions comes from Sir Simon Rattle and National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain. Sadly, it's only available on youtube and I am still holding my breath for a possible official release.






P.S. Pristine's work on that live M8 Horenstein from 1959 deserves all the praise it gets. Definitely another winner in my book.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I've bumped up DavidA's Mahler 8 thread from last year, in the orchestral music section. Might be of interest?


----------



## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Azol said:


> But one of the most amazing modern day renditions comes from Sir Simon Rattle and National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain. Sadly, it's only available on youtube and I am still holding my breath for a possible official release.


I'm experiencing the strangest sense of Déjà vu... and here I was thinking that I was the only one whose posts were never read by anyone - :lol:


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Sorry, duplicate post. The wonders of technology...


----------



## Keith Kenny (Mar 27, 2020)

I highly recommend Elijah Inbal's Mahler 8 on DENON. Sonically thrilling, great tempi and clear throughout. There is a low res rip on YouTube


----------



## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Gramophone comparison of various releases -

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/mahler-s-symphony-of-a-thousand

Their take on Solti -

"Coming back to my 1971 Decca studio recording with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and the combined Vienna State Opera Chorus, Singverein and Vienna Boys Choir, I find that Georg Solti is still the reigning champion of the 'shock-and-awe' school. In terms of sheer orchestral brilliance, there's simply no better ensemble captured more fully on record. Right from the opening organ blast, which was added later in the studio, Solti wields such command that no one element overshadows.

A better cast of soloists has still never been assembled (even if others have sung with a better sense of ensemble), and the main forces complement each other perfectly, as if the chorus singing in Mahler's mother tongue tempers the instrumentalists playing in his orchestral father tongue. The downside of all this is that in his zeal to find the drama, Solti often misses the poetry. Operatic intensity comes at the sacrifice of symphonic subtlety. Detractors have claimed that the sound is more Solti than Mahler - and there are several recordings that are arguably more musical - but still, as far as phrasing and control are concerned, no other performance builds, sustains and releases tension quite like this one. Solti is still the standard with which to compare all the others."

Further down is a comparison between Solti and Tennstedt -

"Klaus Tennstedt's 1986 account with the London Philharmonic Orchestra and Choir is generally beloved by the anti-Solti camp, and indeed his approach stands in great contrast. Where Solti is extroverted, Tennstedt is introspective; where Solti's soloists and chorus command attention on their own, Tennstedt's vocal forces emerge gradually from within the symphonic texture. The concept fully respects the integrity of the piece as a symphony, but in practice the organ and chorus end up sounding fairly anaemic, like amplifying a piano at the expense of the violin in a sonata. Tennstedt, though, is utterly at home, and the clarity of ideas in this 1987 Gramophone Award-winner still holds up."

Ending with this -

I had already been contemplating a dream performance of Mahler's Eighth, one that combines the strengths of other recordings while downplaying their weaknesses (my own anti-Solti, if you will), when I encountered Pierre Boulez's recording with the Berlin Staatskapelle last year for DG. Finally, we have the analytical rigour of Gielen balanced with Nagano's mystical streak, a true symphonic texture worthy of a Tennstedt with the attention to detail worthy of a Rattle. Instead of the Grand Gesture, we get a steady stream of little gestures, all of which add up to a clear - and surprisingly warm - portrait that finesses any inconsistencies in the score rather than bulldozing through them. Does it finally replace Solti? Not really, but it deserves to sit on the shelf alongside it."


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Azol said:


> Solti, Chailly, Bernstein are the best possible representation of M8 in anyone's collection.
> Nagano recording is highly revered by many even though I find some faults with it (tenor spoils the fun for me) but your mileage with it may vary. Definitely check it out.
> 
> But one of the most amazing modern day renditions comes from Sir Simon Rattle and National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain. Sadly, it's only available on youtube and I am still holding my breath for a possible official release.


I disagree with the part about "anyone's collection", however if you look on the previous page of this thread you will see that I already posted about the Rattle/NYOGB performance.


----------



## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Did everything except list my choices - 

Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks / Rafael Kubelík 

Rundfunkchor Berlin, Prager Philharmonischer Chor, Tölzer Knabenchor /Claudio Abbado


----------



## Ulfilas (Mar 5, 2020)

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/other/article/mahler-s-symphony-of-a-thousand

Another perspective!

I think Jens Laurson is bang-on about Solti and Ozawa.

My personal favourite is Boulez.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ I agree with the comment in that Gramphone article where it talks about Solti and 'shock and awe' ... which is exactly what, IMO, the symphony does not need


----------



## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

Keith Kenny said:


> I highly recommend Elijah Inbal's Mahler 8 on DENON. Sonically thrilling, great tempi and clear throughout. There is a low res rip on YouTube


I'm a big fan of Inbal's Mahler.

I've collected almost all of his Mahler recordings.

He recorded the Mahler eight three times.








For Denon in 1986. (TT. 77m 57s)
This is Denon's mid-price blu-spec re-issue.








For Exton in 2008 on SACD (TT 74m 27s)








And again for Exton in 2014 on SACD (TT 77m 19s)


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Andrew Kenneth said:


> I'm a big fan of Inbal's Mahler.
> 
> I've collected almost all of his Mahler recordings.
> 
> ...


That newest Mahler 8 by Inbal is the only one I've not been brave enough to attempt from his terrific Tokyo cycle (regular TCers will know my feelings toward Mahler s 8th). I have it but I still can't bring myself to play it. Is there a painless way I can do it (play it backwards, play it in 2 second segments, play it in another room whilst drilling some holes, etc)?


----------



## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

mbhaub said:


> First, the new DG recording from Philadelphia is getting pretty bad reviews everywhere.


That's a shame. I attended that performance and thought it was wonderful.


----------



## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Becca said:


> I disagree with the part about "anyone's collection", however if you look on the previous page of this thread you will see that I already posted about the Rattle/NYOGB performance.


Yeah, sorry about that, let's say this performance is too darn good is deserves multiple recommendations.
My point about "anyone's collection" was: obtaining great but varied takes on the M8 problem at the same time. These recordings fill the bill perfectly in my opinion.


----------



## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Merl said:


> That newest Mahler 8 by Inbal is the only one I've not been brave enough to attempt from his terrific Tokyo cycle (regular TCers will know my feelings toward Mahler s 8th). I have it but I still can't bring myself to play it. *Is there a painless way I can do it* (play it backwards, play it in 2 second segments, play it in another room whilst drilling some holes, etc)?


Yep... just skip it entirely and say - "It's my least favourite Mahler symphony"... Honestly, Merl, who's even going to know?

If someone asks you which conductor you prefer just reply with "Horenstein, definitely Horenstein..." or better yet - "Horenstein, Gielen, Wit - in that order"...

Strange but true - the nickname "Symphony of a Thousand" includes the audience members in the total count not just the instrumentalists and choristers. They do this because of the "audience participation" section of the symphony - the _mitsingen_ (sing-a-long) section - which runs from "Wie Felsenabgrund mir zu Füssen" all the way to "Komm! **** dich zu höhern Sphären! - Blicket auf zum Retterblick, alle reuig Zarten"...

I never really understood why Mahler wanted a "_mitsingen_" in the 8th rather than either the 7th or the 9th where it would have been far more appropriate especially one that requires that the audience hit a high D, one full step above a high C, followed by a F above the high C when even Pavarotti had to cheat by using his falsetto voice to hit it and at the end it goes down to D, two octaves below middle C and the very next note, after holding this low D for several measures is an octave jump... How many average audience members have the range to even do that? Half? Two-thirds? Three-quarters? - Max - The 8th isn't exactly "The Sound of Music" which, for the record, is kind of a hoot as a sing-a-long and at 3 and a half hours it's about a third less time than Tennstedts's version of the 8th with Jane Eaglen...

In conclusion, Merl, don't listen to music that you don't actually want to listen to - if you don't like something after two careful listens you're not going to like it after a dozen...


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Duncan said:


> In conclusion, Merl, don't listen to music that you don't actually want to listen to - if you don't like something after two careful listens you're not going to like it after a dozen...


I know, I just keep thinking that it's the only Mahler symphony I don't like but after around 40 years I still can't stomach it. I even tried playing it continuously over an entire day. Still didn't work. I gave up on it many years ago but do try it again every few years (just to make sure). I'm gonna try Inbal' s 8th next week as its been a long time since I played it properly. I will report back

Lol


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The 8th isn't my favorite and it's one of those works that is best encountered in a live performance. It's actually done more often than you might think. The orchestral parts are not that difficult compared to the three previous symphonies. The real challenge is getting all the vocal soloists and various choral groups together. So - if the 8th is something that has escaped you so far, do try to attend a live performance sometime. When I listen to it on cd, I don't bother with the libretto. Put the headphones on, dim the room lights, have a nice scotch at hand, close my eyes and wallow in Mahler's wizardry.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm going to try the Wit/Polish National RSO soon. I have it on disc, but I've not heard it. Truth be told this is a daunting symphony for me too. 

Still kicking myself for missing the Spano/Atlanta Mahler 8th performance back in the fall... especially now that the Mahler 4 that was set for April is now cancelled


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Dimace said:


> 1. Horenstein, LSO with Joyce Barker (S) is the BEST recording in the history. (BBC Legends)
> 2. *Rattle, Birmingham SO (EMI) the second best*.
> 
> (I have every single recording of the 8th in LP or CD format)


Thanks, I am giving Rattle a try for $5 shipped, can't go wrong.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Another vote for Horenstein, one of the great Mahler recordings. Of course the sound is not comparable to modern recordings.
> 
> *Another great historical choice is Mitropoulos.*
> 
> ...


How the FFFFF I forgot Dimitris??? After Jascha Dimitris and after him the Sir Simon. Danke for the reminder!


----------



## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

I'm afraid I've never warmed to the Solti: he makes it a sonic spectacular, devoid of mysticism or poetry. I think the Rattle recording is one of the worst recordings of anything I've ever heard. His ever-increasing penchant for micro-conducting means there was no sense of the long paragraph, no sweep, no grandeur. The soloists struck me as weak and wobbly with no sense of Mahlerian line. Chorus sounded recessed. It was the parting of ways between me and Rattle. The faults of his 8th could be heard in embryonic form in his previous recordings
I sold off most of the Rattle in my collection and haven't acquired any since.

My favourites are Haitink, Chailly and Wit. I know the Haitink has been slandered as underpowered, but Haitink seems to have mastered the slow burn. Rather than a conflagration in the first movement that leaves us in darkness for the second movement, Haitink prefers to fan glowing embers into life enhancing radiance.


----------



## Mykul (Mar 26, 2020)

Merl said:


> I know, I just keep thinking that it's the only Mahler symphony I don't like but after around 40 years I still can't stomach it. I even tried playing it continuously over an entire day. Still didn't work. I gave up on it many years ago but do try it again every few years (just to make sure). I'm gonna try Inbal' s 8th next week as its been a long time since I played it properly. I will report back
> 
> Lol


Have you tried taking part in a performance??


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Duncan said:


> In conclusion, Merl, don't listen to music that you don't actually want to listen to - if you don't like something after two careful listens you're not going to like it after a dozen...


I don't think that is true, really. It hasn't been for me, anyway. I find that those "two careful listens" often leave a flavour in my mind so that some time later (maybe years) I suddenly feel I want to hear it again and when I do I find it goes down easily. So much of my favourite and most loved more modern music has come to me like that. On the other hand, have we not all had experiences of liking something at first and then finding it disappointing or empty or merely unsuitable for regular hearings?

I am waiting for "love to blossom" with Mahler 8 and suspect it will one day! I am beginning to think of it as two works, neither of them symphonies. Perhaps that will work. I listened to the Vienna Bernstein recording of Mahler's _Final Scene From Goethe's Faust_ the other day and it seemed to work well as a standalone work. I am very much not usually someone who likes listening to discrete movements of works I like.


----------



## ZeR0 (Apr 7, 2020)

Count me down for recommending both the Solti and the Bernstein. For me, you can never really go wrong with Bernstein paired with Mahler. I also own and would recommend his recordings of the 9th with NYPO, Das Lied von der Erde with VPO, the 5th with VPO, the 2nd with NYPO, the 6th with VPO, and Kindertotenlieder with Janet Baker.


----------



## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> I find that those "two careful listens" often leave a flavour in my mind so that some time later (maybe years) I suddenly feel I want to hear it again and when I do I find it goes down easily.


So true - flogging away at something to overcome conscious resistance is usually ineffective. Just get it in there and then let the sub-conscious get to work on it in its own way and its own time. I don't always wait for the oven bell to ring, though - if I'm particularly keen to appreciate something, I'll sometimes check on it from time to time to see if we're getting anywhere.

So many things work like this. It's why even political arguments aren't as futile as they seem.


----------

