# Bach on the Organ



## Geo Dude

A search of the forum indicates a serious omission: A long-standing (and long) thread for general discussion of Bach's organ works. Favorite recordings? Favorite integrals? Favorite pieces? New and need some help? Post here.

Let's get started ladies and gentlemen.:tiphat:


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## KenOC

For people who want to get into the organ music, here's a real bargain: The complete organ works played by Anthony Newman for under $10! I bought this and enjoy it very much. I also have most of Walcha, all of Foccroulle and Alain, a lot of Biggs, and so forth -- so the competition is tough!

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Coll...373310798&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=bach+neewmann


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## Guest

Love Karl Richter's compilation, personally.


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## Guest

I love Bach's organ works. I came later to them than his other works, though. I pictured everything being the Toccata and Fugue, which I always thought of as "Dracula" music.

I have a few recordings that I love:







This is a great collection of Walcha's recordings, and is my favorite organ recording.








This recording by John Butt is only slightly behind the Walcha, and gets almost equal listening time.








This album with Biggs was the first I bought, and still enjoy quite a bit.


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## Ondine

From a fan of Bach's organ works, I recommend the Peter Hurford Box Set:









Some recommendations that come to mind:

Toccata & Fugue BWB 450, 565, 566, 538.

Toccata, Adagio & Fugue BWB 564.

Prelude & Fugue BWB 531 - 533, 535, 543 - 546, 551, 549.

Passacaglia & Fugue BWB 582.

Fantasia & Fugue BWB 537, 570/946, 561, 542.

Fantasia BWB 571.

Fugue BWB 574, 576 - 578, 579,

Prelude BWB 569.

Aria BWB 587.

Prelude, Trio & Fugue BWB 545b.

The Clavier Übung III is an outstanding oeuvre.

The Six Sonatas BWV 525 - 530 are equally outstanding.

The Six Concertos BWB 592 - 597 are beautiful; taken some of them from Vivaldi.


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## Guest

Peter Hurford sounds great on my Mendelssohn sonatas. Didn't know he had a Bach box set. Hmm...


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## Geo Dude

Be warned that some people find Hurford a bit too...monolithic. I'd suggest doing some YouTube 'sampling' before buying a box set.  (I'm guessing his stuff is out there on YouTube...)

I have Butt's recording of the trio sonatas and they are fantastic. My current set of integrals consists of Foccroulle and Vernet. I'm actually looking for a third set right now and considered Alain's third recording (I'm a dedicated HIPster), but someone suggested that I try an approach that's a bit more Germanic for contrast with the French players. Doesn't seem like a bad idea... (I've heard Walcha II if anyone is wondering; it's not what I'm looking for right now.)

In any case, people looking for individual discs to start with would be well served by the American organist Joan Lippincott. She's done a wide swath of single disc recordings of many of the 'categories' of Bach's organ works and they can generally be found for reasonable prices on the MP at Amazon. She is generally recognized as being a solid (as opposed to transcendent) player at worst, so it's a great way to get a taste of modern Bach playing (as opposed to say, Walcha) and some high quality American organs.


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## Ondine

arcaneholocaust said:


> Peter Hurford sounds great on my Mendelssohn sonatas. Didn't know he had a Bach box set. Hmm...


I only have heard Tom Koopman and definitively Hurford is by far completely superior. His box set is must have for Bach lovers. The strength and depth of his style makes the experience of organ music an outstanding one, beyond that 'church-y' sound.


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## Guest

I see some organists receiving strong reviews, and wonder whether anybody has thoughts on them - Christopher Herrick, Kewin Bowyer, Hans Fagius. I have sampled them, and generally like the sound. But I have to admit that Bach's organ works are still very much a black hole for me. 

For one who likes Walcha and Butt, what might one recommend in single albums? I have considered Walcha's Art of Fugue, or Herrick's Orgelbuchlein. Any other thoughts?


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## Geo Dude

Well, if you're looking for an excuse for a big box, Fagius' integral is contained in Brilliant's Big Bach Box. Just sayin'... 

I'll admit that individual recordings are not entirely my area of expertise, but I may be able to help if you can be a bit more specific. Do you want suggestions on which works you should try, which organists, or both? If you have any specific works you want to hear in mind that would be helpful in determining recordings.


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## Novelette

I've always been impressed by Walcha's recordings, DrMike.

His tempo is impeccably even, although Hurford is a very close second.


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## Novelette

DrMike said:


> For one who likes Walcha and Butt, what might one recommend in single albums? I have considered *Walcha's Art of Fugue*, or Herrick's Orgelbuchlein. Any other thoughts?


Yes! I very, very highly recommend Helmut Walcha's "Art"!

The sound is incomparably grand, played with such learned hand. While I have not heard Herrick's album of the little organ book, the effect of Walcha's performance [not to mention the sound quality] is such that I would not hesitate to suggest it.

I've greatly enjoyed Walcha's complete Bach. Tangentially, blasting this music in my car is quite an experience.


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## Guest

At this point, I am not sure what it is I want. I don't know what individual works I would want. I have a 2-disc set of Walcha's recordings, which I showed above. I love it. But I also love that cleaner sound (I am guessing better recording techniques) of the Butt recording. I mentioned The Art of Fugue simply because I am familiar with it and have a non-organ recording of it. I'm not particularly interested right now in a comprehensive box set. In general I like HIP performances, but on organ, I am not sure what that equates to. What are the sound differences between an older organ that would have been contemporary to Bach and a more modern organ? 

For now, I think the big thing would be what works to go to next. The Walcha recording I have is a sampling - famous organ pieces of Bach. The Butt recording has 4 Toccatas and Fugues, and the Schubler Chorales. Other than the Art of Fugue, what organ works would be good to go with next?


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## Deafguy

I have a recording of Bach music (incl. the Kleine Fugue) done on Japanese instruments (shakuhachi & ???). Well worth a listen.


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## Geo Dude

DrMike said:


> At this point, I am not sure what it is I want. I don't know what individual works I would want. I have a 2-disc set of Walcha's recordings, which I showed above. I love it. But I also love that cleaner sound (I am guessing better recording techniques) of the Butt recording. I mentioned The Art of Fugue simply because I am familiar with it and have a non-organ recording of it. I'm not particularly interested right now in a comprehensive box set. In general I like HIP performances, but on organ, I am not sure what that equates to. What are the sound differences between an older organ that would have been contemporary to Bach and a more modern organ?
> 
> For now, I think the big thing would be what works to go to next. The Walcha recording I have is a sampling - famous organ pieces of Bach. The Butt recording has 4 Toccatas and Fugues, and the Schubler Chorales. Other than the Art of Fugue, what organ works would be good to go with next?


Well, since you already like the Butt recording (and his playing style), I would strongly recommend you go for the Trio Sonatas played by him. They're an important part of Bach's organ works and that disc--in the US, at least--is uber-cheap on the marketplace. The Leipzig Chorales played by Lippincott would probably also be up your alley.  Lippincott has also recorded the Art of Fugue, and it has a good review, but I can't speak to that one myself and feel uncomfortable recommending a more expensive (~$20) recording without having heard it personally.

RE: Kevin Bowyer, I've heard great things about him from several organ 'expert' listeners but haven't yet pulled the trigger on any of his recordings because I've been waiting for a box set, which I don't think is coming, unfortunately. His disc of Brahms organ works is great, though.


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## Guest

I pulled the trigger on the Butt recording of the Trio Sonatas - I bought it through iTunes, so I will load it on my iPod and listen to it (maybe with the other recording as well). This thread is getting me craving organ music.


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## bigshot

Ondine said:


> I only have heard Tom Koopman and definitively Hurford is by far completely superior. His box set is must have for Bach lovers. The strength and depth of his style makes the experience of organ music an outstanding one, beyond that 'church-y' sound.


This. 100% ..


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## Guest

I decided to download all of the James Kibbie recordings. I don't know how well they are esteemed, but considering they are free, I didn't think I could go wrong, and it at least lets me survey all the works. If I find something I really like, I can hone in on a better recording I may want to pay for. Does anybody know whether his recordings are comprehensive, or if there are still some missing? I had to make space on my iPod to load them all on.


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## ptr

I like a variety of organists, but in Bach (Baroque) the one's that I return to most often are Harald Vogel, Christopher Herrick and Gustav Leonhardt. Like many I was brought up on Walcha but I don't connect as well with his way of playing today, he don't do anything wrong, but there are certain mannerisms that bugger me.. (Which I had better words to describe this!). I often find Ton Koopman correct but slightly boooooring, I feel about the same on Preston, Hurford, Fagius, Rogg and Jacob! (I downloaded James Kibbie's free cycle that DrMike mentions above some years ago, after a sample listen I put him in a folder with the label; not bad for what You are paying, but not very exiting either..). Never got in to Kevin Bowyer's Bach, I have a faint memory that I disliked the sound of the Nimbus recording on the sample disc I got, ah, faint memories! 

I have some Argo records with Carlo Curly that are great fun, I love the French organ school(s), fx. Pierre Cochereau, Maurice Durufle (and Marie-Madeleine), Jean Guillou or Oliver Latry to name just a few, but neither are perhaps my first choice in Bach even if most of their Bach recordings have great entertainment value that proves that Bach performance has a millions of variables! 

I've probably forgotten a host of names writing this on a commuter train closing in on Copenhagen, but such is life, some pop's to mind easily, some lingers heavily before being remembered. BTW, just hits me Dutchmen Piet Kee and Feike Asma has also recorded some fine Bach... 

/ptr


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## badRomance

I hate the lightweight fast playing that was in vogue at some point. For that reason I am not a fan of John Butt. But even more unpleasant is Ton Koopman; at times it seems he was pretending he was playing a harpsichord.

My favorite type of performance are those similar to Peter Hurford's: something with clarity of counterpoint, natural tempos, and weight. I also love the sound of Silbermann organs and non-equal temperaments so my favorite organist is probably Hans Otto. Unfortunately I have only found 2 or 3 recordings of his on CD.


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## Cosmos

I love pretty much any interpretation of the Passacaglia and fugue, Fantasia and Fugue in G minor (542), Prelude and Fugue in A minor (543), "Dorian" Toccata and Fugue, Piece d'Orge in G major, and the famous Little Fugue in G minor.

If I had to choose an organist for the job, my pick would be Ton Koopman.


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## KenOC

E. Power Biggs. With a name like that playing Bach, how can you go wrong? (In fact he is very good...)


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## Geo Dude

Peter Hurford's complete Bach is out of print right now, but there's a two disc sampler available. I've ordered it and I'll check this one out and see how it fits in with my more HIP-oriented Bach. Should be a fun experiment, and hard to resist given the price. 

Meanwhile, I think I'll be checking out Weinberger's set when I get the chance. It seems to attract a wide variety of opinions, widely contradictory. This interests me.


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## Blake

Walcha is a titan. Some still consider him to be unsurpassed. Listening to his box-set now and it's quite glorious.


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## hpowders

Clarification: Bach ON the organ? I want to make sure I'm in the right thread.


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## fairbanks

Fantasia & Fugue BWB 537, 570/946, 561, 542


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## Fugue Meister

I think my favorite piece he wrote for organ is the fantasy and fugue in g BWV 542.

I also enjoy O Mensch, bewein dein Snde gro BWV 622, the organ sonata no. 3 in d BWV 527, toccata-adagio & fugue in C BWV 564, & even though it's been overplayed toccata and fugue in d BWV 565


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## Lukecash12

Karl Richter takes me to another world where I contemplate my favorite psalms, while I listen to his playing of the Passacaglia in c.


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## Conky

He takes it a little fast, but I like that.


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## MoonlightSonata

I am learning the organ, and currently, exactly half the pieces I am learning are by Bach. My favourites are preludes in C major and E minor. I'm not sure what BWV numbers they have, though.


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## Krummhorn

Great to know, MoonlightSonata ... I wish you well in your studies. I made a professional career from playing the organ, and at 53 years still 'pedaling' along nicely.

Ton Koopman, imho, plays Bach much to fast for my tastes. He is an excellent musician and a very meticulous player, but some of his tempos are just outrageous.

Our own site owner, Frederik Magle, is also an accomplished organist. His recording can be found on our sister forum (MIMF) by clicking HERE.

Recorded at the Riga Cathedral in 1993.

Kh ♫


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## Varick

What do some of you Organ aficionados think of Michael Murray? I have a bunch of his recordings on the Telarc label, and it's almost all Bach. I don't really have a lot to compare it too, but I do enjoy his playing. I don't see him mentioned at all in this thread. Don't be afraid to criticize. I'm a big boy, I can take it.

V


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## KenOC

A note in case it hasn't been mentioned: The complete organ works of Bach (with some repeats on the pedal harpsichord as well) can be had as a download for $9.49. The performer is Anthony Neman, who some will remember for his excellent Columbia Records albums years ago. Very lively -- no unseemly groveling before the dead bust of Bach here!

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Coll...F8&qid=1409531616&sr=1-2&keywords=bach+newman


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## Bulldog

Varick said:


> What do some of you Organ aficionados think of Michael Murray? I have a bunch of his recordings on the Telarc label, and it's almost all Bach. I don't really have a lot to compare it too, but I do enjoy his playing. I don't see him mentioned at all in this thread. Don't be afraid to criticize. I'm a big boy, I can take it.
> 
> V


I have three of Murray's Bach series. Overall, he's much better in the chorales than the preludes & fugues where he lacks sufficient vitality, tension and strength; he's also not very good with detail. I'm sure there are others who think better of his performances, although most of the comments I've read from other Bach organ enthusiasts have not been favorable.


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## ptr

Varick said:


> What do some of you Organ aficionados think of Michael Murray?


Like him well enough in the more romantic stuff, find him a bit to romantic in Bach/baroque reperoire. To be honest, he's not a first choice in any repertoire for me, but always interesting as a comparison alternative.

/ptr


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## Andreas

I must admit I only have three Bach organ recordings: The Art of the Fugue (Gould and J.-E. Köhler) and a single-disc best-of compilation (K. Richter). But I also have Reger's complete Bach organ transcriptions for the piano (M. Becker), which are awfully nice. Plus Schoenberg's BWV 552 orchestration. Not that I generally prefer Bach's organ works "de-organized"; I just haven't really gotten around to them yet.


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## Marc

The eternally fresh Trio Sonatas, BWV 525-530, played by Alessio Corti on the lovely baroque Eilert-Köhler organ (1738-1740) of the Kreuzkirche in Suhl, Thüringen, Germany.


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## NLAdriaan

As this thread was refreshed after 6 years:tiphat:, just let me once more show my great appreciation for Bach's complete organ works, especially when played by Ton Koopman. In his hands (and feet), Bach's organ works become a celebration of the King of instruments. Some find it to fast, but I am pleased Ton Koopman kicks out the usual 'orthodox' or formal approach and gives these works the nice rhythm they deserve to come alive. I think even if you are just not that into organ music (which I know many people are, probably partly due to the framing of the church organ as a horror show instrument or because organ music can just be a bit much) you might give this set a listen, as it might just surprise you. There are both majestic works and beautiful lighter pieces such as chorales you might enjoy. Anyone who likes Bruckner or Brahms, IMO is a potential fan of Bach's organ music.


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## Marc

My favourite Dutch organist right now is Leo van Doeselaar, also in Bach, even though he's not as much of a (strict) baroque specialist as f.i. Koopman or the late Gustav Leonhardt.

Here he is talking about the gorgeous Praeludium & Fugue in C Major, BWV 547 (especially the fugue). I most certainly can relate to the sensation when that delayed pedal introduction, near the end of the fugue, is coming.






And here he is playing the piece, on the Christian Müller organ (1733/1734) in the Waalse Kerk, Amsterdam, NL:


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## Allegro Con Brio

Walcha seems to be one of the most recommended Bach organists, but I can find his approach overly “monumental” and serious, though it is certainly very effective in some pieces. When I want to hear the gaunt, grand, majestic German organ school in Bach I usually turn to Karl Richter (his Passacaglia and Fugue is truly astounding) and E. Power Biggs (though his registration choices can be pretty interesting). Peter Hurford takes the opposite approach and makes everything move and dance. Can’t say I’m familiar with Koopman’s work as a soloist.


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## UniversalTuringMachine

Suzuki is my jam.


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## Cortot

Who are curious about the old tradition take a look at Edouard Commette, student of the legendary Charles-Marie Widor! Its sound is very wide and impressive, different from modern, I must say I love this more. For example Toccata and Fugue in D minor, I didn't like this piece very much, it doesn't feel like Bach, too much cathy and superficial for him, but my mind changed when I listened to Commette, wow totally spiritual and grand in his hands, doesn't look like anyone. There are many Bach records, all very impressive for me. May not suit everyone but close to my understanding of Bach.


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## Marc

It's almost impossible to pick my favourite Bach organist, Bach organ cd, or Bach organ integral.
If you like splendidly recorded 'ole baroque' sound, then the Aeolus set of Ewald Kooiman (who died unexpectedly during the recordings) and some former pupils might be a good choice.

Here is Ute Gremmel-Geuchen playing the G minor fugue BWV 131a (an arrangement of one of the parts of cantata BWV 131), on the reconstructed J.A. Silbermann organ of the Benediktinerkirche in Villingen(-Schwenningen), Germany.


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## sstucky

There is a great old recording on Somerset called “The Majesty of the Luneberg Organ,” dome in 1958 by Michael Schneider. I bought it in 1965 and still have it. For clarity and stunning playing, it is still the best Bach organ recording I know.


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## Guest

This is cross post, this thread seems more active

I listened to three recordings of Bach's Prelude and Fugue BWV248, "The Wedge."

The Alain digital set









The Weinberg set









The Andra Isoir set









For many years the Alain set has been my reference, but I must admit I enjoyed the Isoir set most of all. Wonderful clarity of line, whereas Alain tended towards the clamorous. I don't know whether to attribute that to registration, the instrument, or the recording technique. I think Isoir may become my new reference.


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## leonsm

Here are my favorites works by the Old Wig: BWV *538*, *564*, 540, *582 *(a lifetime favorite), *542*, 543, 537, 578, 552, 639, 659, 645, 572, 548, 544, 534, 546 & 526.

Favorite interpreters: *Helmut Walcha*, *Marie-Claire Alain*, E. Power Biggs, Hans-André Stamm and Karl Richter.


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## Guest

Continuing my Bach/Organ Journey (going linearly through Alain III, then listening to the same piece in Isoir, Weinberger, Alain II). This time Prelude and Fugue BWV 544 in b minor.

What a majestic piece. The prelude is the very best of dark, ominous Bach (befitting the key). It is in ritornello form, with entries of fugato music building up to an imposing, dissonant climax, from which another fugato emerges. The fugue continues in the same mood, but more straightforward in construction, with a theme consisting largely of linear scale motion.

Alain III was satisfying, a bit clamorous in registration for my taste. Isoir a bit more clear in texture. I started out disliking the sound of the organ in Weinberg's recording, but as the prelude unfolded it became more and more convincing. Finally, Alain II was my clear favorite, beautiful organ sonorities, more clarity of line and rhythmic precision than the other options.

As a final comparison I dug out my recording of the piece in the Liszt transcription, recorded by Pizzaro. Wow! What a difference the sonority of the piano makes (along with Liszt's subtle romanticization of the harmony).

This piece seems to have a lower profile than the "named" prelude and fugue pairs, but I think it may be the best in my book. I am thinking of coming back to it soon, perhaps listening to Rubsam's account on Philips, and Leslie Howard's recording of the Liszt transcription.


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## bwv543

Though it's understated and not exactly complete, Lionel Rogg's 12-CD set, issued on Harmonia Mundi back in the 90s, has always been a favorite of mine. The playing is always sturdy and never overdone, unlike many other performers who hit the bulls-eye with some pieces and miss by a mile with others.


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## Marc

My nightcap for today: _Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ_ BWV 639.
Jos van der Kooy, Duyschot/Vater/Knipscheer organ of the Westerkerk, Amsterdam, NL.


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## Marc

bwv543 said:


> Though it's understated and not exactly complete, Lionel Rogg's 12-CD set, issued on Harmonia Mundi back in the 90s, has always been a favorite of mine. The playing is always sturdy and never overdone, unlike many other performers who hit the bulls-eye with some pieces and miss by a mile with others.


It's gone understated/undervalued maybe because the set went OOP a long time ago.
But at the time of its first release, around 1970, it most definitely met quite some recognition, as it did during the re-release on CD.

I'm less negative about the 'many other performers' though. Imho, there were/are many great performers of Bach's organ works. Lionel Rogg is one of them.
It is true though, that there's probably no one who is able to meet each and everyone's preferences.


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## premont

Marc said:


> It's gone understated/undervalued maybe because the set went OOP a long time ago.
> But at the time of its first release, around 1970, it most definitely met quite some recognition, as it did during the re-release on CD.
> 
> I'm less negative about the 'many other performers' though. Imho, there were/are many great performers of Bach's organ works. Lionel Rogg is one of them.
> It is true though, that there's probably no one who is able to meet each and everyone's preferences.


The reason why it isn't much talken about to day may be, that it's approach is relatively conventional - influenced by Walcha with much legato playing and rather motoric rhythm. But there are also a few early HIP traits like avoidance of too many changes of stops. To me its value rests in Rogg's tasteful choice of stops (the organ sounds indeed beautiful) and his generally subtle expression.


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## burnabyguitar

interesting documentary:


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## Marc

Oh yeah.

Leo van Doeselaar nails BWV 552 on the Silbermann organ of Freiberg's Dom.






:tiphat:


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## mr bob

Got a recording by Braudo, I think he knows how to interpret Bwv 565.


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