# What the Classical Music World can learn from the Pop Music Industry Complex



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I stumbled upon this video today, see what you think about its ideas:






A few implications:
1) Repeated (forced) listenings _will _do something (the music industry already knows that)
2) That what is popular is designated by the right proportion of place and time in one's life.
3) That people can manipulate these factors for themselves outside of industrial manipulation, or they can comply with industrial manipulation.

How do you think the Classical Music World is being effected this way too?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I felt a strong urge to stop the video before the 1 minute mark. The guy was so obnoxious; I couldn't take any more.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Repeated forced listenings tend to make me just hate the music. Especially if its a song I didn't really like in the first place, and even if it is one that I do like. Like I used to be indifferent to the music of John Mayer and Jason Mraz, and after being forced to listen to music like that a ton... I get livid when that absolute garbage music gets played XD


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Let's see. How has product promotion affected me regarding classical music?

Well, if I see a composer or a particular album frequently gushed over in this forum, it does result in me searching him/it out.

If a poster is condescending toward me because I haven't heard a particular composer/album, I tend to search him/it out.

If I read a gushy article in a glossy magazine like Gramophone, sometimes I search him/it out.

Remember back when we had a new member [I forget who] who kept asking everyone, "Do you like Ligeti?" It resulted in several members finally exploring his music.

So promotional techniques have caused me to look into something I haven't known.

Has repetition caused me to be attracted to a piece? Sometimes. The opening of Carmina Burana for a while was in just about every movie trailer, and it did get me interested in the piece. The same for the opening of Zarathustra; the movie made it cool. I didn't care much for Barber's Adagio, but with its use in remembrance of all the disasters recently, it added meaning to the piece which it didn't have before. However, the ubiquity of Pachelbel's Canon has just about ruined his Canon and Gigue for me.

I guess the techniques of pop music do bleed over into classical, if you're listening.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

What Classical music needs is Street Cred. I mean if you get like, John Adams to start beef with Brian Ferneyhough, and then Ferneyhough sees Adams at a concert and stabs him, that's like drama right there. And then Adams be like, "Umma get dis fool when I get out of this here hospital." and then drives by Ferneyhough's gates and shoots him -- that's like, dang... this ****'s fo' real son! Then everybody be like, these dudes are hard, know what I am sayin'? Lemme see what kinda music these mothefuckaz be makin'.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What Classical music needs is Street Cred. I mean if you get like, John Adams to start beef with Brian Ferneyhough, and then Ferneyhough sees Adams at a concert and stabs him, that's like drama right there. And then Adams be like, "umma get dis fool when I get out of this here hospital" and then drives by Ferneyhough's gates and shoots him -- that's like, dang... this sh!ts for real son! Then everybody be like, these dudes are hard, know what I am sayin'? Lemme see what kinda music these mothefuckaz be makin'.


Note perfect! ...........................


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What Classical music needs is Street Cred. I mean if you get like, John Adams to start beef with Brian Ferneyhough, and then Ferneyhough sees Adams at a concert and stabs him, that's like drama right there. And then Adams be like, "umma get dis fool when I get out of this here hospital" and then drives by Ferneyhough's gates and shoots him -- that's like, dang... this sh!ts fo' real son! Then everybody be like, these dudes are hard, know what I am sayin'? Lemme see what kinda music these mothefuckaz be makin'.


Nuthin's betta than when the **** gets real!


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

mikerugnetta said:


> Hi. I'm Mike
> 
> I am a composer, programmer and performer. I live in Brooklyn, NY (with what feels like the rest of the creative industry) and I make my living as a composer for performance (theatre and dance) or video, a freelance live and studio mix engineer, and as a sort of A\V complex problem solver. I sometimes teach Max/MSP and ProTools to all manner of folks who might be interested.
> 
> ...


Unsurprisingly, it seems like he's just your average sub-mediocre artist of today.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What Classical music needs is Street Cred. I mean if you get like, John Adams to start beef with Brian Ferneyhough, and then Ferneyhough sees Adams at a concert and stabs him, that's like drama right there. And then Adams be like, "Umma get dis fool when I get out of this here hospital." and then drives by Ferneyhough's gates and shoots him -- that's like, dang... this ****'s fo' real son! Then everybody be like, these dudes are hard, know what I am sayin'? Lemme see what kinda music these mothefuckaz be makin'.


We already had Schoenberg vs Stravinsky. But since classical music is all about sissies, the way of insulting each other was through elaborated 'poems'. And then we ask what's the problem with us...

Fortunately we have people like Boulez, who almost 'spat' on Adams' music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

aleazk said:


> We already had Schoenberg vs Stravinsky. But since classical music is all about sissies, the way of insulting each other was through elaborated 'poems'. And then we ask what's the problem with us...
> 
> Fortunately we have people like Boulez, who almost 'spat' on Adams' music.


...and Adams, who in turn, gave a big and loud musical raspberry to the 'uptown serialist musical establishment' of his time with his equally fun and 'vulgar' _Grand Pianola Music_, for winds, percussion -- including two pianos -- and three amplified female voices.

(sorry, the only viable recording is the one with John Adams conducting, not up on youtube or I would provide the link.)


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

PetrB said:


> ...and Adams, who in turn, gave a big and loud musical raspberry to the 'uptown serialist musical establishment' of his time with his equally fun and 'vulgar' _Grand Pianola Music_, for winds, percussion -- including two pianos -- and three amplified female voices.
> 
> (sorry, the only viable recording is the one with John Adams conducting, not up on youtube or I would provide the link.)


And at the retoric level he said that Boulez was "a master with a very small hammer", lol.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> 1) Repeated (forced) listenings _will _do something (the music industry already knows that)


In pop music, this is built in to the format, songs, verse, chorus, hook, verse chorus, or slight variations thereof... within two minutes and some seconds you've got near wholesale repetition a minimum of three times, often a few more.
That, I'm sure is what the fellow meant by repeated 'forced' listens. The other aspect is if you, zombie-like, just passively turn on the radio and do nothing further to seek out your musical entertainment -- something you can only blame those who flick that switch to on without thinking about much else.



Huilunsoittaja said:


> 2) That what is popular is designated by the right proportion of place and time in one's life.


 ?????



Huilunsoittaja said:


> 3) That people can manipulate these factors for themselves outside of industrial manipulation, or they can comply with industrial manipulation.


My comment about No. 1 says it all.



Huilunsoittaja said:


> How do you think the Classical Music World is being effected this way too?


Not much, i.e. pop music and its listeners may appreciate the musical aspects of the genre, but the biggest draw is, 90% _songs -- with the lyrics having the greatest pull and holding power;_ the presence of those lyrics as prime draw, a simple melody line accompanied by a small handful of chords, the brevity of strophic song form and its wholesale repetitions several times within a few minutes are, combined, a near complete antithesis to most classical music.

There is, however, a good correlation between 'the industry, ala classical' since ca 1900, going the way of playing older rep as much or more than the new, and doing that repeatedly over decades and decades, and then holding that pattern when it comes to what gets recorded most, and most often.

That is all akin to a "golden oldies" pop radio station, where very few young or new listeners are tuning in, its being all about what is sentimental, comfortable and already familiar. The majority of the classical audience is, I think rather like that when it comes to adventure, or non-adventure in what they listen to, and that has led to a decades long conditioning where many a supposed music lover finds, for example, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Mahler, Ravel, etc. 'dissonant' and /or 'difficult.' In a way, that classical majority have been compliant with "the industry" that they are very like those who just flick the button to that pop radio station they always tune in to, oblivious of any exciting alternative or newer music going on all around them.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

aleazk said:


> And at the retoric level he said that Boulez was "a master with a very small hammer", lol.


And how large do you reckon Adams' hammer is? People who live in glass houses...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> And how large do you reckon Adams' hammer is?


I understand that in the music world, Adams is known as a BSH, or Big Swinging Hammer. The term is borrowed from the financial industry, evidently, with a crucial change.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

aleazk said:


> And at the retoric level he said that Boulez was "a master with a very small hammer", lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


---------------------------------------------------


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I understand that in the music world, Adams is known as a BSH, or Big Swinging Hammer. The term is borrowed from the financial industry, evidently, with a crucial change.


It all sounds like primal locker-room male rivalry cloaked in polite language -- a, "Gentlemen, swords out on the table," sorta thingie.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

If the claims that this video say is true, that means if I were running a radio station, I could completely change people tastes in music, simply by repeating stuff. If I played the same doggone piano piece by Nikolai Medtner every other day at rush hour, people are going to notice, and soon they might actually convince themselves that this is normal, that it really _is _famous, and that they should respect it. No need for lectures, introductions, a "history" of liking it. That is, until they move to a new location. Imagine what power we give to such influences of our taste!

Also, it can explain why certain pieces like Beethoven's 5th are always mentioned first when talking about classical music. Because _we've_ convinced ourselves that that's what everyone should know first before they go elsewhere. But what if you met someone who never heard that Beethoven symphony or anything else classical and said, "Try this Dittersdorf symphony, he's highly famous," they will probably believe you! Even one person who is able to control a source of music for thousands could do that.

I think this kind of gullibility is so prevalent in our culture because we want people to make decisions for us. It's easier. That's why people come to ask for recommendations HERE than dive into the world wide web of millions of songs. But it would be neat if someone made an online classical music station that was _completely _randomized (not sorted out by most views, buys or likes) so that there would be just as much chance you run into something supposedly famous as something supposedly obscure. WE wouldn't be a part of the picture with our "biases" which are actually not even our choices anymore.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> If the claims that this video say is true, that means if I were running a radio station, I could completely change people tastes in music, simply by repeating stuff. If I played the same doggone piano piece by Nikolai Medtner every other day at rush hour, people are going to notice, and soon they might actually convince themselves that this is normal, that it really _is _famous, and that they should respect it. No need for lectures, introductions, a "history" of liking it. That is, until they move to a new location. Imagine what power we give to such influences of our taste!


You couldn't do it by running one radio station. The people who run the industry have a monopoly on peak air-time, bolstered by MTV-like TV channels, YouTube, Vevo etc. Small stations - as your hypothetical station would surely have to be - often don't have much reach, and while they maintain a devoted core listenership, the people who make up that listenership listen because they are already interested in the content. You would mostly be preaching to the choir with few new members, and anyone tuning into your station who wants to hear the big hits of the week isn't going to hang around for the recapitulation of a Medtner concerto. It's also worth noting that music radio is fast being made obsolete now that entire music libraries can be carried around in one's pocket and listened to any time, any place.



Huilunsoittaja said:


> I think this kind of gullibility is so prevalent in our culture because we want people to make decisions for us. It's easier. That's why people come to ask for recommendations HERE than dive into the world wide web of millions of songs. But it would be neat if someone made an online classical music station that was _completely _randomized (not sorted out by most views, buys or likes) so that there would be just as much chance you run into something supposedly famous as something supposedly obscure. WE wouldn't be a part of the picture with our "biases" which are actually not even our choices anymore.


Have you ever seen a computer randomised playlist? You always end up with a situation where the artist with the most entries gets maybe two or three tracks in a row while people who wrote relatively little are harder to come by. You're more likely to hear Bach, Telemann and Schubert than anyone else (apologies to any other ridiculously prolific composers) unless you select the "best" 10 or however many works by each composer to bring their rate of instance to one level, which seems to defeat the purpose. Furthermore, if such a station became popular to the point that it was affecting mainstream taste, it would be bought out by a mass media corporation and "sponsored content" would begin to appear, in one fell swoop both the randomised aspect and the focus on classical music would be gone.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

My experience is that classical music is generally speaking too complex to benefit from some amount of casual exposure. Pop music has hooks, classical music doesn't have hooks. There are some classical pieces that can be appreciated by 'tone deaf' people on the first few listens, but they are in the minority, and even then would require actual attention to be payed.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Is rock-music critic Paul Morley on the right track?

http://www.theguardian.com/music/20...y-classical-music-relevant-future-paul-morley


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Bulldog said:


> I felt a strong urge to stop the video before the 1 minute mark. The guy was so obnoxious; I couldn't take any more.


Your a better man than I am...I only managed 27 seconds....FMG!


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## OlivierM (Jul 31, 2014)

The classical industry has already learnt a few tricks from the pop one.
- Looks : If you check all the recent cds, solists _need_ to be, on a social scale, beautiful. It's not a problem if their interpretations are in the "not so interesting" range, as long as they are cute.
- Standardization : or is it cloning, of the ways music has to be played?
For instance, I tried a few Janine Jansen recordings, and I can't say I was amazed.

In my opinion, it's not just about music anymore, but also about a certain type of appearance that will make an artist successful.

I don't know if the next step isn't performers playing in bikinis. I can only wonder if the classical music industry isn't going shallow.

Regarding radio/tv, I wouldn't know, I have given up listening to/watching a long while ago. But I guess it comes down to the resistance factor one has or hasn't toward advertising. Because broadcasting music is a form of advertising, when it comes to pop music. Because these products have to be sold when they are released, as in two months, it will be another product to sell. 
Twice an hour the same easy song, and twice an hour the same commercial for [toothpaste/car/pasta brand/what not].
2% of people are completely advert to commercials.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Simple. Classical music pieces need to be no more than four minutes long, and really loud with a monotonous beat.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Five words: Give them what they want.*

*And it ain't Classical.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> If a poster is condescending toward me because I haven't heard a particular composer/album, I tend to search him/it out.


That's a wonderful admission!

I also find myself seeking out music when I see a poster condescend to someone for enjoying it! The dark has its won pleasures.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I stumbled upon this video today, see what you think about its ideas:


I loved that! What got me is that number - 92% of American adults say they regularly listen to the radio. Wow! I didn't know that _anyone_ under the age of, like, 50 or something, still did that! Amazing.

What that makes me think is that classical music radio really might be a thing worth fighting for. I'd always assumed radio was going to go the way of the typewriter, so naturally as its users die (sorry guys) its funds would dry up but there really wasn't necessarily a problem because iTunes, Spotify, CDs, whatever would replace it.

But if 92% of adults regularly listen to the radio, and something like 5% of the population (I don't remember the exact stat) identifies classical as their favorite genre, then a classical option (or two) should probably be tenable, especially in larger urban markets.

Granted, the music they choose to play won't win any love among our elite selves: Omigosh don't they like eva get tired of playing Vivaldi? Like, that is so 1977. I'm so like over that.

But we are a minority of a minority. And anyway, let's just be honest for a moment because I think we can take it for a brief moment, if Spahlinger was popular enough to get on the radio, we'd stop liking it.

Anyway, that 92% thing made me think.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I avoid all pre-packaged mass media such as radio, TV, magazines and newspapers. I avoid listening to music that I have not selected, and wearing an earbud in stores focuses my mind on my music instead of the crap the store usually is playing. There are powerful folks manipulating the tastes and political views of the masses and I want no part of it in my personal life. Of course these forces are changing society in some pretty bad ways and we cannot escape that. As one Bob Dylan song says (think he may have borrowed these lyrics from a poet), "Money doesn't talk--it swears!"


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

As OlivierM already mentioned, the pop music world did have its effects on the classical music market. The concept of the 'diva', for example, applied to female opera singers, is, I think, a pop 'trick'. That's why I'm always quite suspicious of the opera genre - there's something that's 'bombastic' and 'controlling' about it, as if it's trying to tell you how amazingly awesome it is. It's true that opera singers like Maria Callas were masters of the voice, but I dislike any kind of image marketing. And I also agree on the arguments for the 'looks' department - Tine Thing Helseth and Alison Balsom are great trumpet players, but are they really the best? Sexuality is definitely starting to be used extensively to market classical and I'm not sure if that's the best way to go about it. Maybe they're trying desperately to boost classical sales, since they should be quite low in comparison to those of pop music. 
Another problem which I perceive in the classical music market is the focus on 'the same old' repertoire - it's always Bach, Beethoven and Mozart - then you get the 'high caliber' performers doing it, and that's what you're 'supposed' to listen to the most. I say, listen to what you like. I personally don't care if it's Martha Argerich or someone else, the most important thing is that I like what I hear and how the interpreter explores the piece. 
There are many composers who are still relatively obscure, like Zelenka, C. P. E. Bach, Michael Haydn, Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov, who all deserve much more attention.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

BurningDesire said:


> Repeated forced listenings tend to make me just hate the music. Especially if its a song I didn't really like in the first place, and even if it is one that I do like. Like I used to be indifferent to the music of John Mayer and Jason Mraz, and after being forced to listen to music like that a ton... I get livid when that absolute garbage music gets played XD


After two and a half years of listening to the same 60 or so songs on shuffle for eight hours a night, five nights a week, I finally hacked into the computer that controls the music that plays over the intercom on the casino floor and muted the volume. There is no emoticon to describe my relief.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

I think people are just anxious when it comes to this kind of music. People will generally listen to what their peers tell them to listen to. If your peers laugh or insult you for liking 'classical' then it is difficult to continue listening or discussing it around them. 

Unfortunately the situation is that people will still exile this music from their lives, mostly out of superstitious fear of the unknown. People are afraid of 'latching on' to a piece of work much like they are afraid of latching on to a new boyfriend or girlfriend. A sort of 'fear of intimacy'; this is what separates a lot of current pop music from 'our' music; it is intimate.

Think about this: you're in a car with your friends, how easy is it to put on Beethoven's Appassionata, compared to Pitbull? Which one requires less emotional input from you the listener? How many of you in the car are going to feel comfortable being 'vulnerable' with your emotions with everyone else? Thats right, its easier to put on pitbull and dissociate and 'dance' then to think about more personal things.

In fact I was successful once: While driving to work with some coworkers in the same car as me, they asked me to put on some music that I listen to (they knew before I liked classical). So I gave them it - First movement of Schuberts 'Death and the Maiden' arranged for string orchestra by Mahler. Lets just say the experience was surreal - in the p and pp moments of the work they would talk, but as soon as those fortes came in - silence.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Igneous01 said:


> If your peers laugh or insult you for liking 'classical' then it is difficult to continue listening or discussing it around them.


This is a genuine problem, but your peers laugh or insult for liking pretty much any kind of music. So you listen to it alone, no problem. What we don't want to face is the fact that our community is much less welcoming to newbies than other communities. The essence of the classical music community is scorn for outsiders, and no one faces it more than someone crossing the threshold. Maybe it's like hazing, maybe it's something we should be proud of. I don't know. Only after she's figured out where all the mines are, she can maybe learn to negotiate our terrain without getting blown up.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

What the Classical Music World can learn from the Pop Music Industry Complex?

*A:* _Sex Scandals? I hear they sell quite well._


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Igneous01 said:


> Think about this: you're in a car with your friends, how easy is it to put on Beethoven's Appassionata, compared to Pitbull? Which one requires less emotional input from you the listener? How many of you in the car are going to feel comfortable being 'vulnerable' with your emotions with everyone else? Thats right, its easier to put on pitbull and dissociate and 'dance' then to think about more personal things.
> 
> In fact I was successful once: While driving to work with some coworkers in the same car as me, they asked me to put on some music that I listen to (they knew before I liked classical). So I gave them it - First movement of Schuberts 'Death and the Maiden' arranged for string orchestra by Mahler. Lets just say the experience was surreal - in the p and pp moments of the work they would talk, but as soon as those fortes came in - silence.


Well done boss, well done


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

What the Classical Music World can learn from the Pop Music Industry Complex?

The big thing in pop music is live concerts. Bands no longer make money through single sales like they used to, money is made through touring with live concerts. And there is a demand for live music.

If only the Classical Music World learned how to promote live concerts to the public. I go to some great classical music concerts and sometimes the hall is only 2/3 full, which is good for me because I can buy a late ticket. But these events should be packed. Concerts are excellent value for money compared to pop or rock concerts. They are in small (compared to arenas) intimate venues. The sound quality is incredible because no amplification is used. And the talent on display is peerless.

If only the Classical Music World could convince the public that going to a concert is a really great evening out and an exclusive one off event that is worth passing over their hard earned cash for.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

It's true; I know who Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, and Justin Timberlake are, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, and do not intend to buy anything by them.

It's like media wallpaper. If you watch TV, you will be exposed.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> It's true; I know who Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, and Justin Timberlake are, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, and do not intend to buy anything by them.
> 
> It's like media wallpaper. If you watch TV, you will be exposed.


Me too. A bunch of overrated junk as far as I'm concerned. Never underestimate the stupidity of the majority of Americans.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> It's true; I know who Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, and Justin Timberlake are, and I have no interest in them whatsoever, and do not intend to buy anything by them.
> 
> It's like media wallpaper. If you watch TV, you will be exposed.


Now, see here! Justin Timberlake is a much better musician than the other two and a much better musician than you would expect - just before he actively went solo I saw an interview with him claiming he wanted to make music influenced by Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and Al Green. Imagine my scoffing. And then imagine my surprise when he, to a reasonable degree, succeeds


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Morimur said:


> What the Classical Music World can learn from the Pop Music Industry Complex?
> 
> *A:* _Sex Scandals? I hear they sell quite well._


hasn't worked so well for Pletnev


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Not much, i.e. pop music and its listeners may appreciate the musical aspects of the genre, but the biggest draw is, 90% _songs -- with the lyrics having the greatest pull and holding power;_ the presence of those lyrics as prime draw.


People don´t care about the lyrics and usually they don´t know what they are singing except for the title of the song.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> You couldn't do it by running one radio station. The people who run the industry have a monopoly on peak air-time, bolstered by MTV-like TV channels, YouTube, Vevo etc. Small stations - as your hypothetical station would surely have to be .


When I was a child there were only three radio channels. Talk, classical and pop no music channels and no youtube. In that case changing the music of the one pop channel to classical would change peoples music taste to like classical music or cause most people to stop listening to radio.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

science said:


> This is a genuine problem, but your peers laugh or insult for liking pretty much any kind of music. So you listen to it alone, no problem. What we don't want to face is the fact that our community is much less welcoming to newbies than other communities. The essence of the classical music community is scorn for outsiders, and no one faces it more than someone crossing the threshold. Maybe it's like hazing, maybe it's something we should be proud of. I don't know. Only after she's figured out where all the mines are, she can maybe learn to negotiate our terrain without getting blown up.


I've honestly never noticed that dismissive attitude on here- maybe I'm just super-insensitive or something? Whenever I've made a howler or asked a stupid question, it's been pointed out or answered in a gentle and indulgent manner. Now, jazz aficionados on the other hand...


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## mirepoix (Feb 1, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> ...Now, jazz aficionados on the other hand...


I was just about to post the exact same thought. I find those who consider themselves aficionados of jazz to be infinitely worse. However there's indeed an unwelcoming element in the classical community. Having said that, I've only been part of this particular community for less than one year, yet every single PM I've received has been a combo of friendly and warm in the person sharing their knowledge or simply the time of day. Of course, there are snobs everywhere. But they're never worth considering.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Sloe said:


> People don´t care about the lyrics and usually they don´t know what they are singing except for the title of the song.


That hasn't been my experience. Maybe for people that only listen to pop music casually and then try to sing along on the radio this is true. But for people that actively buy Katey Perry albums and whatnot, the lyrics is the main thing that makes them like or dislike the song, that and the "hook" or chorus.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> People don´t care about the lyrics and usually they don´t know what they are singing except for the title of the song.


I remember watching my non English speaking Russian former mother in law dancing and singing along to Boney M's 'Brown Girl in the Ring': she didn't know or care that lyrics like 'she looks like a sugar in a plum' are meaningless and sound stupid. Perhaps that's an extreme example- Euro pop aimed at a non-Anglophone audience- but I think a lot of people are more concerned about whether something's got a catchy tune and a toe tapping beat than whether the words sound good or make sense.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2014)

I don't think Lady Gaga burst onto the world stage because of the content of her lyrics. Then again, I really don't know why she burst onto the world stage.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Deleted post. Ooops


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It's simple. Give them the music 99.5% of the people want to hear.

What's that you say? You don't think classical music marketing can do that?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I don't see anything wrong with pop music but overall, classical music consistently provides a more profound experience. However I do think that some of the best hip-hop tracks can provide a dimension in sonic experimentation that classical music hasn't done plus turntables as an instrument hasn't been realized in the classical music world.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sloe said:


> People don´t care about the lyrics and usually they don´t know what they are singing except for the title of the song.


My impression is that they latch on to select phrases and verses, but don't really know the whole song, usually it's the refrain that they latch on to as it is repeated more--pounded into their heads as they listen to whatever the pop station pukes out all day long.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sorry! I'd better delete this.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

This article points out the revolutionary nature of classical music relative to that of pop music (honestly with jazz I think the heyday for experimentation was the 1970's).

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/sep/21/pop-belongs-last-century-classical-music-relevant-future-paul-morley


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

gog said:


> I don't think Lady Gaga burst onto the world stage because of the content of her lyrics. Then again, I really don't know why she burst onto the world stage.


 Because she can sing!


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## Vox Gabrieli (Jan 9, 2017)

I haven't listened to pop since Buffalo Springfield.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

POP MUSIC should learn from classical music because classical music been out longer you know.Also most pop music is crap today.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Provocative photos on CD covers and ads sell more.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Pop music is (or more correctly _was_) folk music as in music for the people, for the layperson. It's not a mystery why it is popular. In fact its name is a dead give-away.

The top end of classical music has already gone down the route of employing the same techniques of promotion and making a PR swirl around the popular star soloists like Yuja Wang. In truth it's not all that new really, there have always been star classical performers sexed-up for the media. Martha Argerich was covered in this way early in her career.

The thing is you can use the pop culture methodology to rouse interest, but the fact is that once a person is hooked and reeled-in (if that happens at all) if they don't like the music they will just disgorge themselves and leave again. Classical music is just not the listening taste of the majority.

If any medium does more to turn people onto classical music it is film and film music. Perhaps also games which now have very sophisticated soundtracks.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Phil loves classical said:


> Provocative photos on CD covers and ads sell more.


They use in the music industry SEX to sell their crap music most of them have no real talent in the first place.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Gabriel Ortiz said:


> I haven't listened to pop since Buffalo Springfield.


I haven't listened to Pop since he threw me out of the house and told me not to ever come Bach!!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

mtmailey said:


> They use in the music industry SEX to sell their crap music most of them have no real talent in the first place.


Now you won't see that on a classical cover.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Sex is what makes the world go round, nothing wrong with that


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

David OByrne said:


> Sex is what makes the world go round, nothing wrong with that


Well, technically, that's not true. What is true is that there would not be any composers, musicians, instrument makers, recording engineers, classical music fans, or Talk Classical without sex! Well, I guess 4'33" would still exist without sex! :lol:


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Klassik said:


> Well, technically, that's not true. What is true is that there would not be any composers, musicians, instrument makers, recording engineers, classical music fans, or Talk Classical without sex! Well, I guess 4'33" would still exist without sex! :lol:


Exactly this, everyone wants some, that's probably why so many classical fans are intimidated by the sexier side of pop, because it unabashedly utilities it (and why not? really?). Chances are, if you are a homosapien, you think about it multiple times a day anyway (well, if you aren't already doing it) :lol:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

mtmailey said:


> They use in the music industry SEX to sell their crap music most of them have no real talent in the first place.


Am I to guess you don't like popular music? There are plenty of talented people making pop music, not just the handful who dominate the showbiz news.


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