# Chinese Classical and Folk Music Recommendations Request



## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Hello all, I started this thread so members that have some insight in Chinese music can introduced and recommended me distinguished, recommended, or favorite recording/albums of Chinese Classical and Folk music to me.

I am looking for *classical instrumental music* that feature silk (絲) and bamboo (竹) instruments, such as *Erhu, Guqin, Guzheng, Pipa, Dizi, and Bawu*. I'm *not interested in Peking Opera or Yayue music*, as despite trying to listen to it in the past it hasn't yet connect with me.

I'm also interested in *folk music* of different regions, particularly the *Jiangnan area*, as Mo Li Hua, a poem adapted into a folk ballad, is one of my favorite song. If you can, can you introduce me to traditional playing style as I preferred traditional style rather than the pop version.

I heard of modern chinese orchestra such as the Hong Kong Chinese Orchestra, China Broadcasting Chinese Orchestra, and Singapore Chinese Orchestra, and I'm deeply interested in them. However, I heard that their playing style is more akin to western orchestra and they have "modernize" the pieces they are playing. Can anyone who are familiar with *modern Chinese orchestra*, recommended me a *recording/album that is "faithful" to traditional style*?

If you feel inclined, I asked that when you are posting to include your preferred recording or a youtube video, as many artist perform the song with differing interpretation leading to varying experience.

Here are the musicians and some pieces I like prior to creating this thread.

Liu Fang, a pipa player.




The King Chu Doffs His Armour

Abing, a blind erhu and pipa player who tragically died shortly after he was "discovered"




Moon Reflection In Erquan by a different player

high Mountains/ Flowing Water 





Jasmine Flower by Fong Fei-fei





Thank you in advance for helping me discovering new works!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Okay first off, a disclaimer. Chinese classical music is not something I listen to very often, and consequently I haven't collected much of it. It's a little too "foreign" to my ears, and a little bit goes a long way.

That said, the 1992 Celestial Harmonies 4-CD boxed set is fabulous all the way through:









For a bit more 'modern' feel, I highly recommend this release:





This one is an incredible recording, but I never warmed much to the playing:





And this is a young ensemble with a lot of panache. Maybe more "folk" than "classical"?


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> Okay first off, a disclaimer. Chinese classical music is not something I listen to very often, and consequently I haven't collected much of it. It's a little too "foreign" to my ears, and a little bit goes a long way.
> 
> That said, the 1992 Celestial Harmonies 4-CD boxed set is fabulous all the way through:
> 
> ...


Thank you! I will check them out.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

I've become extremely interested in traditional Chinese music as well, and have recently done a fair amount of reading (and listening) on the subject!

I've found Chinese traditional music particularly difficult to get a clear picture of, because there are so many different 'layers' of Westernization that coexist - the phenomenon you note of government-promoted 'hybrid' classical music combining Western orchestration with largely superficial uses of traditional instruments or ideas, for example... but then also, if you focus on the sizhu / silk-and-bamboo chamber ensembles, there is actually a substantial difference between the sizhu music played by non-conservatory-trained semi-professionals in Jiangnan teahouses, as opposed to the newer generations of conservatory-trained sizhu musicians, even though the conservatories' stated goal is to 'preserve' the traditional style of play... and in the world of the guqin, too - this instrument is held up as a prime example of 'pure' Chinese musicianship, but since the 50s most players have replaced their silk strings with steel strings, yielding a completely different sound, and have adopted a much more virtuosic / crowd-pleasing performance style... To be clear, I don't think any of these changes are necessarily negative - it's just important to be aware of what it is you're really listening to.






^ This album gives a really good overview of different styles of playing Jiangnan Sizhu. I think at its best Sizhu is the platonic ideal of ensemble playing, with everyone responding to each other pseudo-improvisationally on a microscopic level of nuance... one of the central ideas of Sizhu is for each player to keep 'balance' by playing more complex ornaments and variations when other players are keeping things simple, and playing simpler when others elaborate. Apart from this principle the other main thing to listen for is the sheer horizontal complexity of the fixed underlying melody, which never exactly repeats itself but builds its own world of variation and tension and expectation over the course of its entire run-time...

As for guqin music, there are many regional styles, and increasingly a distinct national style among steel-string players, many of which are quite worthwhile... but for me the most interesting recordings are those of Tsar Teh-yun and her students, a small group in Hong Kong who use silk strings and exist completely outside the conservatory system - Tsar Teh-yun, who was herself taught prior to the Cultural Revolution, simply teaching those she deemed worthy, in her apartment. There is an album of Tsar Teh-yun recordings compiled from tapes her students made of her for instructional purposes, which is therefore rather lo-fi and with some sloppy playing; but the best demonstration of the style is in recordings of her students Sou Si-tai, Lau Chor-wah, and Tse Chun-yan. Here is an example:






Here's another type of Chinese traditional music you may be familiar with, nanguan - kind of like sizhu but more 'formal', more self-consciously 'art music', and featuring a form of singing that may be offputting at first (but is only superficially connected to Peking opera):






On another note, user 'mihr' over on rateyourmusic.com has written some excellently informative and thought-provoking reviews of various Chinese traditional records: https://rateyourmusic.com/collection/mihr/reviews,ss.dd - I can't filter only for the Chinese traditional reviews here but if you scroll a bit there's a chunk of good ones, and then there's more on the next couple pages.

Also, thank you for posting Mo Li Hua - I haven't heard that song since I was made to sing it in my middle school Mandarin classes, and it was rather surreal to stumble upon it again!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

China is a really big country, with a really long tradition of classical music. I'm sure for anyone who is really into it, the idea that there is one "Chinese classical music" is laughable.


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

cheregi said:


> I've become extremely interested in traditional Chinese music as well, and have recently done a fair amount of reading (and listening) on the subject!
> 
> I've found Chinese traditional music particularly difficult to get a clear picture of, because there are so many different 'layers' of Westernization that coexist - the phenomenon you note of government-promoted 'hybrid' classical music combining Western orchestration with largely superficial uses of traditional instruments or ideas, for example... but then also, if you focus on the sizhu / silk-and-bamboo chamber ensembles, there is actually a substantial difference between the sizhu music played by non-conservatory-trained semi-professionals in Jiangnan teahouses, as opposed to the newer generations of conservatory-trained sizhu musicians, even though the conservatories' stated goal is to 'preserve' the traditional style of play... and in the world of the guqin, too - this instrument is held up as a prime example of 'pure' Chinese musicianship, but since the 50s most players have replaced their silk strings with steel strings, yielding a completely different sound, and have adopted a much more virtuosic / crowd-pleasing performance style... To be clear, I don't think any of these changes are necessarily negative - it's just important to be aware of what it is you're really listening to.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your informative post! I will definitely check out your recommendations. If you feel inclined, can you elaborate on the different regional style for Guqin or point me towards a source that could answer my question? Once again, thank you so much.


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> China is a really big country, with a really long tradition of classical music. I'm sure for anyone who is really into it, the idea that there is one "Chinese classical music" is laughable.


Yep I agree with you that there are regional difference within Chinese classical music genre. I just used the catch all term, as I'm not sure what specific style I like.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Conrad2 said:


> ... Can anyone who are familiar with *modern Chinese orchestra*, recommended me a *recording/album that is "faithful" to traditional style*?


This is something that I also have an interest in. Unfortunately there are very few that one can find on Amazon/Youtube etc.

Here's one that I could find on Youtube (link) -

"The Goddess Lao Suites - Tsao Pi and Chen Mi" written for an Chinese orchestra by the Taiwanese composer/conductor/pipa player WONG Ching-Ping. It is about a love-triangle story told by folklore based on three historically real people, a king, his queen and his brother.

The linked Youtube video playlist includes the 4-movement suite (why "Suites" in the name is in plural I have no idea). This playlist also includes a single-movement, earlier version of this piece. That uploader took them from a CD played by the Taipei Chinese Orchestra conducted by the composer.

Unfortunately, that Youtube playlist includes track titles in Chinese only. Here're the titles from the booklet of this CD, which I have -

The Goddess Lao Suites
Scene I. Gollant Warriors
Scene II. Sublime Lady
Scene III. Wei Palace Affairs
Scene IV. Dreams and Disillusions

THe Legendary Goddess Lao River (Recorded in 1982)


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Kiki said:


> This is something that I also have an interest in. Unfortunately there are very few that one can find on Amazon/Youtube etc.
> 
> Here's one that I could find on Youtube (link) -
> 
> ...


Thank you! I will check it out.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

This one is traditional sounding one with vocals. Check out the sample for Shepherd Girl. I thought it's nice.

https://www.allmusic.com/album/beloved-chinese-songs-mw0000233529


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Conrad2 said:


> Thank you for your informative post! I will definitely check out your recommendations. If you feel inclined, can you elaborate on the different regional style for Guqin or point me towards a source that could answer my question? Once again, thank you so much.


Of course! Other than the wikipedia article which does have a fairly informative breakdown, there's also this ancient post, which deals with regional style especially in the third paragraph. The 'qin recording list' linked in that text also features several CDs demarcated according to their regional styles. I wish I had more than this scant overview!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Here is a CD of what I thought is a very interesting album. It seems to be more lean instrumentally, less melodic, kind of uncompromising and hardcore. Check out "Water and Clouds over the Rivers.." and "Water Lily" with the quiet sliding of the strings. I find it interesting that Western music is only catching up to the playing around with timbres of the instruments with extended instrumental techniques in the last century. The middle part of "Water Lily" is really quite microtonal.

Eleven Centuries of Traditional Music of China


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a CD of what I thought is a very interesting album. It seems to be more lean instrumentally, less melodic, kind of uncompromising and hardcore. Check out "Water and Clouds over the Rivers.." and "Water Lily" with the quiet sliding of the strings. I find it interesting that Western music is only catching up to the playing around with timbres of the instruments with extended instrumental techniques in the last century. The middle part of "Water Lily" is really quite microtonal.
> 
> Eleven Centuries of Traditional Music of China


I hadn't heard this, and I see what you mean! "Water Lily" is really quite exceptional.

As for extended techniques that Western music is only recently catching up with - my favorite example of this is that in traditional guqin performance, it is sometimes required that a player depresses certain parts of certain strings and slides the finger from position to position, but _without_ plucking the string or otherwise producing an actual note - so it is purely a visual experience for the player and (small) audience...


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Is Chinese music microtonal, or just using a scale of more than 12 notes per octave? Oops, maybe that's the same thing.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

NoCoPilot said:


> Is Chinese music microtonal, or just using a scale of more than 12 notes per octave? Oops, maybe that's the same thing.


From what I've read and heard, it's diatonic, and has up to 7 notes a scale. Different regions flatten or sharpen a note or 2. Some use the pentatonic scale.

Just from my perception, usually the microtonal stuff is only for ornamentation or effect, but in that 'Water Lily' piece in the middle did have some pretty ambiguous tones that didn't seem to fit into a diatonic system, nor chromatic.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I brought home from China some 30 CDs of their music. Unfortunately, many of those had covers only in Chinese letters and might be hard to get in the west


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Jacck said:


>


This is a good example of "Westernized" Chinese classical music, where it's essentially Western music played on Chinese instruments. The rhythms, scales and development are all very un-Chinese.

Nothing wrong with that -- all music benefits from hybridization -- but the original poster should know the difference.

Bummer about the hum though.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

^^^ possibly. I am no expert on Chinese music.

here are two CDs I have
https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Traditional-Erhu-Music-2/dp/B00000JFPK





and this one
https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Masterpieces-Erh-Hu-Man-Sing-Group/dp/B001O0Z9BK
does not seem to be on youtube


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

That's pretty Westernized too.


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> This is a good example of "Westernized" Chinese classical music, where it's essentially Western music played on Chinese instruments. The rhythms, scales and development are all very un-Chinese.


How to differentiate "Westernized" Chinese classical music from "true" Chinese classical music? Sometimes I can tell the difference from the instrumental arrangement, but it's handy to have some key clues when listening to something that in the genre.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Imperial Dancing Music Of Tang Dynasty · Chinese Plucked Instruments Quintet


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> From what I've read and heard, it's diatonic, and has up to 7 notes a scale. Different regions flatten or sharpen a note or 2. Some use the pentatonic scale.
> 
> Just from my perception, usually the microtonal stuff is only for ornamentation or effect, but in that 'Water Lily' piece in the middle did have some pretty ambiguous tones that didn't seem to fit into a diatonic system, nor chromatic.


This is my understanding as well - the actual scale system is relatively simple, but the complex ornamentation, which is easily as important to the sound of a piece as the actual sequence of notes, especially in guqin music, goes far, far beyond the named pitches.



Conrad2 said:


> How to differentiate "Westernized" Chinese classical music from "true" Chinese classical music? Sometimes I can tell the difference from the instrumental arrangement, but it's handy to have some key clues when listening to something that in the genre.


I think this is something that becomes very natural as you continue to listen - there's a rather different sense of melody (typically much longer melodies, entirely pentatonic, and without recourse to sudden contrasts of rhythm or 'mood' to generate interest - in other words, melody as underlying structure per se, rather than as something overlaying structure), and no 'harmonic progression' in the western sense - really no sense of triadic harmony at all (guqin music is full of beautifully Pythagorean open 5ths, of course...).

Another way to think of it is, if you were to take a piece from the Shanghai Traditional Orchestra above, for example, and notate in Western notation, you would pretty much have a clear picture of what's interesting about the piece, a good sense of what's 'going on'. On the other hand, if you were to notate a guqin piece or the sizhu piece I linked earlier, you would end up with something really simplistic-looking, and you would really be missing the whole essence of what's going on there, things like nuance of ornamentation or micro-rhythmic fluctuation/'disjointedness'.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

I'm glad cheregi chimed in. I was just about suggest he'd be much better to answer the question than me.

There are certain characteristics of Western music which are entirely missing in Chinese traditional music: unison passages, regular 4/4 rhythms, phrases trading off between instruments or groups of instruments.

There are characteristics of Chinese music you won't find in Western: fluid time-keeping, musical phrases which neither build nor diminish, but simply exist in their own pace, ensemble playing where every musician seems to be playing pretty independently from the others.

It's hard to describe.

Like I said in my first post, the zeitgeist of Chinese music is very foreign to Western ears, and takes some getting used to.

And of course, the pieces I posted break all these "rules."


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Sorry for bumping this up, but I found an absolutely stunning pipa song titled 十面埋伏 performed by Liu Dehai.






It's full of drama, and from reading a Wikipedia page, it told the story of the Battle of Gaixia, where Gaozu defeated Xiang Yu to form the Han Dynasty.

Now, I wonder how many works I have listened to without grasping the historical context behind them. Are there other works similar to this?

*Update*: In the performance, there are parts where the performer played some patterns or technical things that I haven't heard used in other performance, leading me to think that the performer is using some modern or "westernized" techniques. From reading a wiki page about him, he developed techniques such as the manually roulade, double shake, and three shake. I wonder if he used those techniques in this performance as it sounds very different from another rendition of the same song.


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