# Wiener Philharmoniker



## Weltschmerz

I just wanted to let everyone know that the Vienna Philharmonic is the greatest orchestra in the world. There is simply no comparison or contest. No - not New York, not Chicago, not London, not even Berlin. Wiener Philharmoniker reigns supreme in the music world.


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## Amfibius

Why do you think that, Weltschmerz? Can you name some pieces that you think they do particularly well in? (Serious music only - Strauss does not count!)


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## linz

What about R. Strauss, does he count (Levine/Sintow) 'Ariadne auf Naxos'
Wiener Philharminker spiecializes in 'Austro-Germanic' late-Classical to late-Romantic music, anything in that frame they do fairly well. Lorin Maazel also conducted a fine set of the complete Sibelius Symphonies on the London label, it was also with the Vienna Philharmonic.


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## Guest

Weltschmerz said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that the Vienna Philharmonic is the greatest orchestra in the world. There is simply no comparison or contest. No - not New York, not Chicago, not London, not even Berlin. Wiener Philharmoniker reigns supreme in the music world.


You cant get away with that. You must tell us why otherwise it means nothing.
PS where is the Big D????


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## 4/4player

On what evidence?
Please state your reasons why with your opinion.

4/4player


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## Kurkikohtaus

linz said:


> Lorin Maazel also conducted a fine set of the complete Sibelius Symphonies on the London label ...


Oh good lord I just noticed this should I reply or should I just keep my big Sibelian mouth shut what should I do I'm sweating shaking trembling I can barely breathe ok here goes:

Among Sibelius afficionados, that cycle is considered *THE* most obscene one available. It is surprising based on Maazel's other fine recordings with Vienna that he would demand so many extreme dynamics and tempos and take so many liberties with this set. If this was the first thing I had ever heard from the Vienna Philharmonic, (which thankfully it isn't), I would probably never buy a Vienna Phil recording again.

Otherwise a fine orchestra, and not just for Johann Strauss.

For a discussion of good Sibelius cycles, you know where to go...


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## Shane

Weltschmerz said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that the Vienna Philharmonic is the greatest orchestra in the world. There is simply no comparison or contest. No - not New York, not Chicago, not London, not even Berlin. Wiener Philharmoniker reigns supreme in the music world.


Are you speaking for the present moment only, or for all-time? Just wondering if it is based on the current players, of if past accomplishments are figured into this opinion?
Because everyone knows that Berlin under Furtwangler was the best ever.


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## Topaz

I think that post by Weltschmerz was his/her last. 

Since then the VPO has been voted best orchestra in Europe by a panel of music journal judges. 

I don't have any dodgy recordings by VPO. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I guess if a dodgy one slips through the net now and then it won't sell, so they will likely discount it or discontinue it. 

I like the VPO mainly because of its really nice strings section. On disc, it always sounds among the best to me. As far as I am concerned, the VPO can do no wrong. I saw them at the Proms (in London) a few years ago and they were fantastic. 


Topaz


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## amirjsi

It's a mute point trying to figure out if the Wiener is better than the Berliner. I have heard both under different conductors. Both produced beautiful music... but I got to say, last year in the Salzburg Festival, the Berliners under Rattle's direstion in Mozart's 25th, 40th and Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola were mediocre at best. It was like they were on auto-pilot or something. the soloists were good though 

Sorry, maybe that was beside the point. But I feel in general, the Berliners have a more bombastic sound and a rougher (in a good way) sound, the Wieners are mellower and feel more lyrical. Both are superior orchestras.


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## Tero

Vienna 99 symphony set
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=857407
the Sibelius is the Bernstein slow versions which you can get separately. I did and got rid of. Too slow.

Other nice works there though. 50 discs for 110 dollars.


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## Vaneyes

amirjsi said:


> It's a mute point trying to figure out if the Wiener is better than the Berliner. I have heard both under different conductors. Both produced beautiful music... but I got to say, last year in the Salzburg Festival, the Berliners under Rattle's direstion in Mozart's 25th, 40th and Sinfonia Concertante for violin and viola were mediocre at best. It was like they were on auto-pilot or something. the soloists were good though
> 
> Sorry, maybe that was beside the point. But I feel in general, the Berliners have a more bombastic sound and a rougher (in a good way) sound, the Wieners are mellower and feel more lyrical. Both are superior orchestras.


I don't think Rattle has done any good for the BPO. He was in over his head.


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## Vaneyes

Weltschmerz said:


> I just wanted to let everyone know that the Vienna Philharmonic is the greatest orchestra in the world. There is simply no comparison or contest. No - not New York, not Chicago, not London, not even Berlin. Wiener Philharmoniker reigns supreme in the music world.


Not even The Big D?


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## GSchiappe

I'll agree on Rattle and BPO, anything outside the late-late-romanticism to contemporary repertoire that he does is pretty dull.
Even Bruckner, a household specialty, became dull(not that Abbado was a great Bruckner conductor too).

By the way, what is "The Big D", Dresden?


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## Bone

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Oh good lord I just noticed this should I reply or should I just keep my big Sibelian mouth shut what should I do I'm sweating shaking trembling I can barely breathe ok here goes:
> 
> Among Sibelius afficionados, that cycle is considered *THE* most obscene one available. It is surprising based on Maazel's other fine recordings with Vienna that he would demand so many extreme dynamics and tempos and take so many liberties with this set. If this was the first thing I had ever heard from the Vienna Philharmonic, (which thankfully it isn't), I would probably never buy a Vienna Phil recording again.
> 
> Otherwise a fine orchestra, and not just for Johann Strauss.
> 
> For a discussion of good Sibelius cycles, you know where to go...


Interesting. I went to your forum and got the impression there were many fans of the Maazel/VPO cycle.

But as far as VPO goes, I have to admit that they are an orchestra which seems to have the ability to create "landmark" recordings. To whit: Brahms 4 with Kleiber; Bruckner 8 with HvK; Mozart 40 & 41 with Lenny; Death and Transfiguration with Previn; and Sibelius 1 and 5 with Maazel are among my most cherished recordings. BPO is certainly up there for me, but I think I'll side with Weltschmerz just because this group has worked so well with such a diverse group of conductors.


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## KenOC

In yesterday's New York Times and (kind of) relevant:

Orchestra to Disclose Its Nazi Past -- "The complete reports of the historians are to be posted on the orchestra's Web site on March 12, the 75th anniversary of the Austrian Anschluss."

http://tinyurl.com/a3qgopj


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## SiegendesLicht

^ Oh please, not that again. We've already had one Wiener Philarmoniker/nazi discussion not so long ago, in connection with their New Year concerts.


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## superhorn

I don't buy the notion of one "greatest" orchestra, but by any standard, they are simply out of this world !
The VPO is absolutely ideal for composers such as Schubert, Brahms, Bruckner, Wagner, Richard Strauss and Johannn Strauss , for example. Not everyone likes them in Mahler, but they do have a quointessentially "Austrian" sound in his music . Their use of special Viennese instruments, such as oboes and horns, etc, gives them an unmistakable timbre . 
If you look at any of their concerts on television or DVD, you will see how different the horns look and sound .
They use a completely different valve system . I hear they're even harder to play than standard horns, difficult as those are , but in the hands of a master player, they sound divine . Unfortunatlely, I never got a chance to try one out in my horn playing days . 
I will never forget the concert in Carnegie hall I attended years ago with the orchestra conducted by Claudio Abbado playing the Bruckner 7th. They did not sound like an earthly orchestra , but one you might expect to hear in heaven, if it existed . The audience cheered so loudly I had to put my hands over my ears !


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## DavidA

I think the example given of VPO / Maazel is somewhat irrelevant as that cycle was made 50 years ago!

I think what we can say with certain is that the general standard of playing in orchestras round the world has immensely improved since then. Certainly the VPO were near the top of the tree then (there were Karajan's BPO) but I'm not sure about now.

In a recent poll the Gramophone made Amsterdam's Concertgebouw Orchestra the "winner" with the VPO third. Just what credibility a poll like this has is questionable at least as the judgements made ( given the general excellence of playing) are largely subjective.

As for the orchestras Nazi past this is unquestionable as Austria as a nation enthusiastically embraced the Nazis. Presumably most of the orchestra did the same. However, what is unquestionable is that today those musicians are dead or long retired! If you have sensibilities on the subject start ejecting recordings made (eg) in the 50s when those guys were still playing. Eg get rid of Walter's Mahler he made with the then VPO or perhaps Solti's Wagner. This, of course, presents a moral dilemma as both conductors were Jews who had to flee persecution themselves!


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