# What do you look for in a Conductor?



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

What makes a Conductor worth getting their album? We have dozens of "great" conductors today that vie for our attention, and I was wondering what are some of the standards that you guys have. Or, perhaps, are you _more _influenced by the sound quality of the recording, or the sound of the orchestra themselves, or the music alone? A combination of all 3?

I don't know if it's just me, but I tend to like conductors that have better sound quality in their recording, stereo sound, more evenly balanced, a slight bit of echo to prove it was recorded in a large venue. A little more up-close the the players too, so that the echo isn't too much. Percussion can't overpower, but they certainly have to be there. But is that factor ever influenced by the conductor? I wonder...

Anyhow, conductors I tend to like choose _tempos _that I like for the pieces they conduct. Tempos is a critical factor in whether or not I will buy one album over another. Even a conductor I would normally like who conducted something at a tempo I didn't like, I wouldn't want to own it. Also, I listen for dynamic contrasts, extra slow-downs and speed-ups, what kind of liberties are given to solo players, etc.

So, what do you want from a conductor?


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Honestly, I look for humility. If the conductor's salary is more than all the hard-working musicians in the orchestra combined then I don't want to hear a thing that conductor says or does.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

A conductor has to be technically sound. He or she has to be able to read through the musical score and bring out the spirit from within and make sure that during the rehearsals, the statement is achieved by an ensemble. During the final performance or the concert, he or she has to give the music everything so that the Divine Creator is forced to listen to the dialogue. In other worlds, move the worlds and knock at the gates of heaven with the offering.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

That is a very interesting question. For me, a conductor must:

1) _Be probing, individual, and let loose_. It is not enough to simply play by the notes so mechanically and without emotion. A conductor must find an ideal balance between the notes, the indications, etc. and the meaning behind the notes, so as to give them life. Think of Serebrier in his Glazunov and Rorem series, and how he forces you to re-think the scores by going beneath the surface and reading between the lines. Consider also, Bernstein in his Sibelius (DG) or his Mahler (or Wagner's "Tristan and Isode"), or Gunther Wand in Bruckner, or Rasilainen in Atterberg, and how they elevate the music beyond the mere writing on the music sheets for those reasons. I prefer slower tempi and anything that is not one-dimensional when listening or attending performances. But not too slow so as to rob the music of its momentum (Sergiu Celibidache in his Bruckner for instance) or too cool so as to rob the music of its communicative impact (Maazel in his Mahler). Be decisive, compelling, yet have a unique stamp of the works one conducts (Haitink, Kubelik, Kondrashin).

2) _Be adventurous_. I admire conductors who introduce me to works I never or rarely heard of, especially during concerts. One of the reasons why I'm a big fan Neemi Jarvi, Svetlanov, Kondrashin, Bryden Thomson, Handley, is because they opened my eyes and ears in ways I'd never anticipated. And now, my music appreciation and knowledge are much more enhanced and their scopes widen because of their intrepid examples. What Leon Botstein has been doing, especially with the American Symphony Orchestra (either in concerts or on recordings) in that regard is nothing short of astonishment. I am, however, less inclined to listen to conductors who perform overly familiar or over-played works (like Semyon Bychkov, Temirkanov, Muti, Maazel) unless they have something revelatory to say (Bernstein in Tchaikovsky or Sibelius, or Karajan in Bruckner, Strauss, or Levine in his Wagner, or Barenboim likewise in Wagner or Schumann).

3) _Be well (or faithfully) recorded_, if it comes to that, although older recordings do display the power of communication of conductors on the podium pretty well (Fritz Reiner's 1936 recording of Wagner's "Tristan und Isode"). Ideally, a recording (or a concert hall or theatre) is reverberate, atmospheric (or spacious), warm to the ears, and well balanced. Thank goodness for Chandos, Hyperion, Warner Classics.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

tahnak said:


> A conductor has to be technically sound. He or she has to be able to read through the musical score and bring out the spirit from within and make sure that during the rehearsals, the statement is achieved by an ensemble. During the final performance or the concert, he or she has to give the music everything so that the Divine Creator is forced to listen to the dialogue. In other worlds, move the worlds and knock at the gates of heaven with the offering.


Damn I like that.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Olias said:


> Honestly, I look for humility. If the conductor's salary is more than all the hard-working musicians in the orchestra combined then I don't want to hear a thing that conductor says or does.


I guess you have some hard time as musician, but this is ridiculous - the humility you require, can it be brought down to conductor saying "they offered me large salary, but I'm humble, I renounce it so that the wind section might get better payment"? And if he doesn't say so, you "don't want to hear a thing" and blame him for how the industry works financially?


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I don't know if it's just me, but I tend to like conductors that have better sound quality in their recording, stereo sound, more evenly balanced, a slight bit of echo to prove it was recorded in a large venue. A little more up-close the the players too, so that the echo isn't too much. Percussion can't overpower, but they certainly have to be there. But is that factor ever influenced by the conductor? I wonder...


The quality of the conductor has nothing to do with stereo-sound: that is how his performance is captured. Is this thread about the conductor or about the final product as released on the market?

From conductors I merely require a good, skilled, interesting, unique or otherwise amicable interpretation - and I do mean _interpretation_.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> So, what do you want from a conductor?


I want something different than the standard repetoire. I don't need more Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Mahler etc. I want Draeseke, Dopper, Devreese - or something interesting but DIFFERENT. Jarvi was one of the first conductors to start recording some of the lesser known works that should be heard - like Stenhammar. 
.


Cheyenne said:


> The quality of the conductor has nothing to do with stereo-sound: that is how his performance is captured. Is this thread about the conductor or about the final product as released on the market?
> 
> From conductors I merely require a good, skilled, interesting, unique or otherwise amicable interpretation - and I do mean _interpretation_.


I believe the conductor has final approval of how the recording is mixed. Or he should anyway.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Severe musical intelligence, and however it happens in rehearsal, the ability to communicate what is wanted / required of the players. [ADD; Ferenc Fricsay, a shining example of extreme musical intelligence, that communicated to the players, _plus_ that necessary 'Charisma' or whatever was there to not only communicate to the players, but animate and amalgamate all those involved which then elicits, literally, an 'electrified' delivery. END ADD]

Once in a studio, a lot is left to the engineers, including what you might think was an in-hall recording. After some selective listening, even with modern tech tricks, you can begin to tell if something was recorded in a decent size hall with an intelligently placed spread of mikes for that ambient plump and decay you mention, or whether it was recorded in a studio and more manipulated in the mix down.

What I do not want is an "overly personal interpretation" while real personality _must be present in the performance._ Severe musical intelligence and the ability to communicate with the players are the qualifiers of what brings a decent "interpretation."

Interpretation does not have to be a personal carnival side-show display (Karajan - by way of the sound / Bernstein - by way of display on the podium.)

Live, the less show and tell from the podium the better, those like Charles Munch, Szell, Boulez, come to mind, minimum flapping of hands, arms, with instead just neat communication to the players. Those conductors consciously giving a show to the audience are as unwelcome as any other device transparently manipulating me in order to "Tell me what to think or feel."

I hate concerti or other soloist recordings where the soloist has been mic'd to sound far in front of the ensemble, to a point of distortion beyond credibility of what one would normally hear in a live presentation in a hall.

The right tempo, any time, is the right tempo  Some of that very much depends on the decay time of the venue in which a work is played.

As good as Dutoit is, I've yet to hear anything he's recorded which I did not feel was too fast, period, so if buying, unless there was a bit of repertoire with no other choice of performance, I would avoid his recordings altogether.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

A conductor provides a coherent interpretation of the score. S/he has enough knowledge and study of the history of performance of that score -- both recorded and, ideally, described in the literature about that history as well -- to understand what has been done, what has been overdone, and what has not been done yet.

A conductor is in some ways the salesperson for the interpretation. I am fascinated with different performances of a work because they provide insights into different aspects of the music.

Some conductors provide immense drive, spine, momentum, so that you hear the entirety of the composition, no matter how complex or varied, as a single, motivated thing, with all the hierarchies of different parts of the orchestra, different voices, inner details of performance, subsumed under the interpretive direction. Toscanini and Bernstein are like this. The risk with this kind of conducting is that it can sometimes become manneristic, and impart a sustained flavor to everything the conductor conducts. The music ends up being a vessel for the conductor's interpretive tendencies. With the best, like Toscanini and Bernstein (Furtwangler, Szell, Levine), those tendencies do not overwhelm the composition.

Other conductors focus on just the opposite; they take the stance that the "story" of a particular score has been told enough as a coherent entity (and this is particularly true of the warhorses) that it is time to highlight and surface a number of interesting details, moments, voices, phrases, sections, that generally get lost in the dominant interpretive tradition. From these conductors, you may not get the sense of the whole piece as a single composition from beginning to end, but if you've heard it enough, you're ready for the fresh insight, the "hey, I never paid attention to that flute, that viola section, isn't it interesting that tempo/balance is different here, which brings out X in the music more" kind of opportunity that such conducting provides. Daniel Barenboim, Colin Davis are two of my favorite conductors in this category.

I think orchestras have preferences, too; I know I've seen, over the years, orchestras who embrace the goals of conductors, and orchestras who seem to refuse them, and fight them. If an orchestra is behind, and understands, the conductor's interpretive intentions, it will come out in the performance. If they are not, if they are hidebound and used to playing things certain ways and unwilling to try anything else.... it will come out in the performance, too, usually with dull results.

The conductor is also, ideally in a performance, an interpreter for the audience. While many of the gestures are visual reminders for the orchestra of the interpretive goal of this or that passage during the performance, helping the orchestra to solidify what it has been (hopefully) practicing -- especially for places where it is being asked to do something other than what it's used to -- they are also indicators to the audience of the intended emphases and performative flows of different parts of the music. They can draw the audience's attention to specifics in the performance the conductor and orchestra have been practicing, and have chosen for highlighting. Ideally this happens in the listening in itself, but again, with audiences trained into passive habits by multiple listening, sometimes they need to be woken up by some conductor dancing during the performance, to get their attention.

Finally, there are conductors who perform very close to the vest, with little "expressive" motion but great clarity for the orchestra. They are the disciplinarians (I think of Karajan, Ozawa, Bohm, Stravinsky, others whose names escape me at the moment) who present the performance as if it were objective representation of the music in itself, with the orchestra's and conductor's presence in pure service to same. However, in practice and work with the orchestra before the performance, the interpretive approach has been worked out at the finest levels of detail, sometimes to a level of maddening effort for the orchestra, so that every element, every tempo, every part of the performance is precisely as the conductor has intended. The risk with this approach is that sometimes, everything can be perfect but you can "lose the flow" or momentum of the music, that it turns into machinery instead of expression; however, the best in this sphere provide an interpretation that will be timeless, solid as the rock of ages, and will seem to have an inevitability to it that leaves you with the impression, "THAT is how the composer intended it to sound!"

I like all sorts of different conductors; the longer I've known a piece, the more varieties of approach to its performance I've become interested in. It's easy when you're new to classical music generally, or a part of the repertoire specifically, to be most impressed with the first-named-type of conductor above, as said conductor "makes the most sense" of the unfamiliar to the ear new to the music. But, like a catchy pop tune, repeated listens to that kind of performance can -- at least for me -- grow stale more quickly, leaving me with the desire to seek less mannerist alternatives.

Hope that makes sense!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Silence*

I actually have heard recordings where you can hear the conductor groaning and grunting in the background. I hate that. :scold:


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Cheyenne said:


> The quality of the conductor has nothing to do with stereo-sound: that is how his performance is captured. Is this thread about the conductor or about the final product as released on the market?


I think many conductors do have influence on this aspect and are engaged in the studio work. Because if not the conductor, who will stand over the sound engineers and answer when they ask "is that good? do you want more of this? slider left or right?". The proof is that some (mainly modern) conductors have their recordings similiar both musically and technically.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Olias said:


> Honestly, I look for humility. If the conductor's salary is more than all the hard-working musicians in the orchestra combined then I don't want to hear a thing that conductor says or does.


I think you won't be hearing much of the really good conductors then.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Olias said:


> Honestly, I look for humility. If the conductor's salary is more than all the hard-working musicians in the orchestra combined then I don't want to hear a thing that conductor says or does.


So that let's out just about every great conductor - who's left?


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Aramis said:


> I think many conductors do have influence on this aspect and are engaged in the studio work. Because if not the conductor, who will stand over the sound engineers and answer when they ask "is that good? do you want more of this? slider left or right?". The proof is that some (mainly modern) conductors have their recordings similiar both musically and technically.


There are some influences yes, but no conductor chooses to let the recording be released with mono sound, and "I dislike Toscanini's conducting because most of his recordings have have mono sound" can hardly be said to be a judgement of Toscanini's value as a conductor.



PetrB said:


> Interpretation does not have to be *a personal carnival side-show display* (Karajan - by way of the sound / Bernstein - by way of display on the podium.)


Capital phrasing :tiphat:


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

When I was younger, it was all about tempo. Now, I'm more concerned with intensity. Nothing is worse, for me, than when I get the feeling that the conductor is just going through the motions (no matter what the tempo). 

I'm much pickier when I'm watching a performance DVD or video. If I'm going to watch a performance (of anything, but especially opera or classical concerts) there has to be something about the visuals that makes me want to do more than just hear it. 

I enjoyed, for example, Christian Thieleman's musical interpretation of Beethoven's 7th, but it was much better for me if I closed my eyes and didn't have to watch his mostly wooden conducting style and the stodgy old Vienna Philharmonic where absolutely no one in the orchestra looked like they were enjoying what they were doing.

Kent Nagano may not be as great a conductor, but his performances are much, much more watchable and the German Symphony Orchestra of Berlin with whom he recorded his Arthaus discs looked like they were really into what they were doing. These might not be my first choice of performances to listen to on a CD, but watching them was fun and made the experience worthwhile.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The rather dichotomous dynamic of any great performer should be included when contemplating what a conductor does: with all assertion of intelligence and personality or character, all that is ultimately subsumed, put aside to let the music speak on its own terms, allowing the character of the composer and the particular piece to be entirely in the fore.

All that dedicated study, practice and work to ultimately leave the performer / conductor "not really be noticed." LOL.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

"I'm not interested in having an orchestra sound like itself. I want it to sound like the composer."

- Bernstein


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Aramis said:


> I guess you have some hard time as musician, but this is ridiculous - the humility you require, can it be brought down to conductor saying "they offered me large salary, but I'm humble, I renounce it so that the wind section might get better payment"? And if he doesn't say so, you "don't want to hear a thing" and blame him for how the industry works financially?


Yep, that pretty much sums it up. It is indeed how the industry works, and the industry is wrong. I've sat on symphony boards and seen conductors bankrupt the organization at the expense of the musicians. Boards need to wise up and distribute their funds more fairly to attract and keep the best musicians instead of dumping a heap of cash on one person. Until then, give me a chamber group with no conductor over an underpaid orchestra with a high priced stick waver any day. (My opinion FWIW)


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

moody said:


> I think you won't be hearing much of the really good conductors then.


I guess not. That's why I'm grateful for chamber music.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

What I'm mostly looking for, I think, is clarity. For me, the conductor's job is to find the interesting aspects of the music and present them to the audience without glossing them over or beating us over the head with them.

What I don't much care about is how the conductor physically performs his or her job. They can land wherever it pleases them on a scale of Boulez to Dudamel: if it bothers me I'll close my eyes.

What I also don't much care about is to what degree the conductor preserves the composer's original intentions (or rather, what a certain breed of fan imagines the composer's original intentions were). Fiddle with the tempo as much as you like, use as few or as many instrumentalists as you want, go the historically informed or historically ignorant route, it's all fine with me. So long as I'm hearing aspects and ideas in the music I hadn't heard before, I call that good conducting.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Looking for humility in a conductor is a contradiction in terms. The profession encourages the ego in people. How else would you believe that by waving your arms around you could influence 100 skilled musicians to do what you wanted unless you are a person of considerable ego?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Interesting posts! For a while I thought people where misinterpreting my OT because I focused on CDs specifically, but then I realized live performances are also a pretty important thing to analyze, from the audience and the musician's perspective.

I could go on forever about I want from a conductor as a _musician_.  As an audience person, however, I may have slightly different standards. I mean, I don't like playing music in an orchestra that I feel is being misinterpreted by the conductor, but I get over it pretty quickly. Disrespectful, or highly irritable conductors scare me into submission, but inside I am in turmoil.


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## Copperears (Nov 10, 2013)

It's sometimes hard but some of my favorite teachers and mentors have been disrespectful and highly irritable. With enough perspective, and assuming it doesn't veer into the territory of outright criminal abuse, it can have its own, memorable charm.

Just be amused and not scared by the cranky old man.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not a performer, so as a listener I want passion. If you are phoning in the performance or just playing the notes, or trying to be too subtle to the point of blandness, I'm not very interested. For recording I like a fairly wide dynamic range but not too wide. Remember we live in a modern much noisier world that makes it hard to hear the really soft parts without cranking up the loud parts to unreasonable levels. Even a household refrigerator puts out enough noise pollution to make too wide a dynamic range unlistenable without headphones. And let's not even begin about the neighbor's sub-woofer thingies!

I also like clarity, as *ahammel* mentions. I think the tempos should be chosen with clarity in mind as well as passion. This is why I have lost some respect for Martha Argerich and other virtuosos. I think tempos are chosen to showcase her keyboard shredding ability to the detriment of the music.

What else? I'm looking for someone who brings me the composer, not being too idiosyncratic.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

It's fascinating how different great orchestras react to the samefamous conductor . One will hate his or her
guts, find him arrogant, overbearing, a control freak , hate the way he talks too much in rehearsal etc,
and another will just adore him and the musicians will say how inspiring he is to play under and praise 
his technical mastery . 
Soimetimes different musicians within an orchestra will love or hate a conductor . But if you're an incompetent
jerk , the orchestra can tell instantly . They don't impress easily . This is why slick publicity can never 
make a successful career for an incompetent conductor . The Vienna Philharmonic, the Concertgebouw, the LSO,
the New York Philharmonic won't even invite you back if you are incompetent . Yes, it's the administration
which technically chooses the music director in most orchestras , but if an orchestra thinks he's a talentless
phony they will never stand for one as thewir music director .
When a conductor appears for the first time withi an orchestra as guest, musicians have been known to test 
him with deliberte mistakes , wrong notes, playing out of tune on purpose to see if he knows his business . 
One of my undergrad music professors many years ago mentioned a concert he attended by the New York
Philharmonic where the once famous but not too well-remembered Austrian conductor Josef Krips (1902 -1974)
was conducting a Brahms symphony . Krips had a rewputation of being very overbearing and an insufferable control
freak who was constntly picking on musicians in rehearsal . The professor said that when Krips came on stage,
he could sense a feeling of hatred by the musicians in the NY Phil . Bu t ironically, the hostility ,he said,
made for the most viscerally exciting performance he had ever heard !


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

superhorn said:


> One of my undergrad music professors many years ago mentioned a concert he attended by the New York
> Philharmonic where the once famous but not too well-remembered Austrian conductor Josef Krips (1902 -1974)
> was conducting a Brahms symphony . Krips had a rewputation of being very overbearing and an insufferable control
> freak who was constntly picking on musicians in rehearsal . The professor said that when Krips came on stage,
> ...


Oh the irony! Must musicians suffer _that _kind of pain for the sake of an audience, for the sake of an "outstanding" performance? Perhaps this is an ethical dilemma! Do the ends justify the means if a conductor psychologically tortures its musicians to get the best results?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Perhaps this is an ethical dilemma! Do the ends justify the means if a conductor psychologically tortures its musicians to get the best results?


No. Don't be a jerk, even if you're a good conductor.

That was an easy one!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I think this whole over-bearing, aggressive idea of control is starting to be a thing of the past. You'll never get that soul-quenching, warm emotion out of people if you treat them like dogs. They might play technically superb, but something will be missing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> I think this whole over-bearing, aggressive idea of control is starting to be a thing of the past. You'll never get that soul-quenching, warm emotion out of people if you treat them like dogs. They might play technically superb, but something will be missing.


Perhaps. Or maybe we've lost something in our more enlightened age of labor relations.
---------------------------------------------------------------- 
That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"

"But Maestro," a player would sometimes protest in a small, hesitant, and resentful voice. "My part is printed 'forte.' " "What you say?" the Old Man would growl menacingly, unbelievingly, distracted for the moment from his tirade. "It says 'forte,' " the player would reply, this time in an even smaller, more apologetic voice.

"What? Forte? FORTE?" with an air of incredulity. "What means 'forte'? Ignorante! Is a stupid word -- as stupid as you! Is a thousand fortes--all kinds of fortes. Sometimes forte is pia-a-a-no, piano is forte! Accidenti! [Damn it!] You call yourself a musician? O, per Dio santissimo! You play here in THIS orchestra? In a village cafe house you belong! You don't listen to what others play. Your nose in the music -- szshrump! szshrump! You hear nothing! You cover up the oboe solo! One poor oboe -- one! -- and you szshrump! szshrump! Where are your ears? Look at me! Contra-ba-a-ss-i!" in a long, drawn-out wail. "Tutti! Tutti! Vergogna! [Shame!]"

-- Quoted from Samuel Antek, "This Was Toscanini", 1963


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

We need more jolly fat boys like Jimmy Levine.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

starthrower said:


> We need more jolly fat boys like Jimmy Levine.


Lief Segerstam!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe we've lost something in our more enlightened age of labor relations.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"
> 
> ...


I just see there is no excuse for the torrent of rudeness and abuse that Toscanini directed at an orchestra. Any more than there was any excuse when, according to Y Menuhin, when he ripped the phone off the wall in his hptel room because it rang on the middle of a conversation. In any case, these days are gone - thankfully.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> I just see there is no excuse for the torrent of rudeness and abuse that Toscanini directed at an orchestra. Any more than there was any excuse when, according to Y Menuhin, when he ripped the phone off the wall in his hptel room because it rang on the middle of a conversation. In any case, these days are gone - thankfully.


Certainly our music is far more civilized today, more polite and refined. A good thing, do you think?


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

When I watch a conductor, I look to see if I could follow him or her as a player. Now I'm only an amateur, and not particularly accomplished. I need to see a clear down beat, and a clear difference between time signatures. I've seen some conductors who just seem to wave their arms about, and somehow the orchestra follows, and sometimes don't! I played once with a guest conductor and couldn't follow him at all, no idea what he was doing.

Most conductors I can see what they're trying to accomplish.

As for on a CD, when I can't see. I don't always know what I want. Not the answer you wanted to hear, sorry.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Common occurance*



KenOC said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe we've lost something in our more enlightened age of labor relations.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"
> 
> ...


I have played for all types of conductors, including screamers. This situation occurs all of the time in rehearsals and there are conductors who can effectively resolve this without throwing a temper tantrum.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Best conductors I've played with have been Yan Pascal Tortellier and David Atherton neither of whom have particularly clear beats (YPT would just stopp beating and enjoy for a bit) but the results were vivid and exciting. Both had a sort of personal magnetism that meant everyone was completely engaged - no idea how they made it happen but very memorable. They both demonstrated enormous musical chops and mean ears when correcting rhythm and pitch and nuance with amazing precision. This energy and technical mastery combo is pretty much what I'd be looking for in a conductor.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Certainly our music is far more civilized today, more polite and refined. A good thing, do you think?


Come off it, Ken! Making good music does not depend on a conductor being rude. Karajan used to make astounding performances without - according to biographers - ever 'losing it' with an orchestra. Not that he was a particularly nice man - but there is something called self-control.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

DavidA said:


> but there is something called self-control.


I hear this sickness doesn't spread well in southern climate, thus Toscanini.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Fine neck tie...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Come off it, Ken! Making good music does not depend on a conductor being rude. Karajan used to make astounding performances without - according to biographers - ever 'losing it' with an orchestra. Not that he was a particularly nice man - but there is something called self-control.


"Music should not be normal, well-bred, with its tie all neat." --Györgi Ligeti


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> "Music should not be normal, well-bred, with its tie all neat." --Györgi Ligeti


Note he says the _music_ - not the conductors!


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

You can make some seriously powerful and direct music without being an a**hole.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Good hair.


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Good hair.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Note he says the _music_ - not the conductors!


Right! There is only room enough in even the largest of venues for one ScreamingMimiMegaDramaQueen, and that is the music, not the one with the baton -- and one does not need a weekend getaway "intensive sensitivity training " seminar priced at thousands of dollars to learn how to be a really fine communicator, or how not to be an [email protected]@hole


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Perhaps. Or maybe we've lost something in our more enlightened age of labor relations.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> That sweat-drenched face was bearing down upon us like the archangel of vengeance himself as we almost disemboweled ourselves with feverish effort. Then suddenly, a spine-chilling wail: "Pi-a-a-a-n-o-o! Bassi! Contrabassi! You grunt away like pigs! You sound as if you were scratching your bellies -- szshrump! szshrump!" he would bellow, while, tearing at his clothes, he viciously pantomined the scratching. "Corpo del vostro Dio! PI-A-A-NO!"
> 
> ...


I love working with people like that. Much less confusing and more efficient than constant politeness. More entertaining too. (As long as they know exactly what they want and don't keep changing their minds... then they're just annoying tyrants.)


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Crudeness is normally overlooked if you're considerably intelligent and efficient, but it's not a necessary characteristic to get things done. I think people often confuse being direct/to-the-point and being a jerk-off.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It is a fact that times have changed and conductors would not be able to get away with what they used to. However, the conductor is still often the big selling point of a recording or concert.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

A proper conductor should be like this guy:




























*I kid.. I kid.. I kid.. *


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Compare Dudamel to these.. Elegant and refined.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I must confess that as a non-orchestral musician I cannot see just how the guys in the Orchestra can follow the beat of so many conductors. It seems that there is very little relationship to what they are playing. But it is what they play that counts of course.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't care if the conductor is dancing around or not. That says nothing about his actual control. Look how Wand conducted... he barely moved, yet he was in complete control.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

Fritz Reiner, with his gigantic baton and steady gazes, must rank among the most minimalistic of conductors.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

This is an almost hilarious photo of William ("Great Conductors Do Not Dance") Steinberg.

Having seen him many times in performance, I can testify that as an audience member I was sometimes in doubt about whether he was moving at all. But, he could bring wonders out of an orchestra.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I must confess that as a non-orchestral musician I cannot see just how the guys in the Orchestra can follow the beat of so many conductors. It seems that there is very little relationship to what they are playing. But it is what they play that counts of course.


I use to be befuddled too, before I ever played in orchestras. But now that I do, it definitely depends on the conductor, but I've gotten use to hard-to-read beats. Often conductors don't just gesture pulses: they make phrasing gestures, cyclical gestures (moving their baton in a certain way to represent some pattern in the music but not the beat), etc. The usual things that make me get lost is when they suddenly break their groove to do something, especially when they were do a 4-beat marking pattern and suddenly becomes suddenly different even though meter might not have changed.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

One of the more confusing things when watching is that orchestras (pros anyway) play behind the conductor's beat - some quite substantially Gives them time to respond to changes etc


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

According to a story , when Josef Krips was music director of the San Francisco symphony long ago ,
one musician in the orchestra actually committed suicide because of the way Krips treated him for so long .
He just couldn't take the constant verbal torment .
There was a joke about Reiner when he was alive . He became notorious for firing musicians in his
the orchestras where he served as music director before Chicago (Cincinnati and Pittsburgh ) who did
not measure up to his exacting standards . The list of his victims was very long .
So they predicted that when he died, he would fire one of his pall bearers at the funeral !
Martinet conductors like Reiner,Rodzinski, Szell and Toscanini so abused their right to fire musicians summarily that
the American federation of musicians made rules to make it much more difficult for conductors to fire
musicians , and these are still in place .
When a musician is new, he or she has one probationary year and the music director has the discretion to
retain that player or not to , but after that , your job is secure , and a conductor hs to prove incompetence to dismiss
a musician , and this requires hearings .


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dgee said:


> One of the more confusing things when watching is that orchestras (pros anyway) play behind the conductor's beat - some quite substantially Gives them time to respond to changes etc


partially true. European conducting 'school' has the beat given before it should sound, some American classical, and especially pop, "the beat is right here, now."

Other factor -- speed of sound vs. speed of light:
to the audience, the conductor's beat looks ahead of the sound, you see it (speed of light), the sound arrives later (speed of sound).


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

In my opinion, the most important thing is the repertoire that the conductor champions. I like it when a conductor is adventurous and looks beyond the obvious pieces. That’s why I consider baroque specialists like Rene Jacobs and William Christie to be among my favourites. Perhaps John Eliot Gardiner as well. They have introduced me to lots of wonderful pieces which I otherwise wouldn’t have known about. 

As far as the Romantic repertoire is concerned, I would consider Colin Davis among my favourites for his unwavering devotion to championing Berlioz and Sibelius. 

What I don’t look for in a conductor is someone who thinks their own persona is more important than the music they are playing.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

What do you look for in a Conductor?
I use 'New posts' to start my daily TC adventure, and when I see that header my immediate response is either 'low resistance', or if I am already in whimsical mode 'fluffy hair'.

The latter refers to Karajan's nickname. I very much hope I am not becoming fixated on Karajan; if I am I'll blame Huilun.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

PetrB said:


> partially true. European conducting 'school' has the beat given before it should sound, some American classical, and especially pop, "the beat is right here, now."
> 
> Other factor -- speed of sound vs. speed of light:
> to the audience, the conductor's beat looks ahead of the sound, you see it (speed of light), the sound arrives later (speed of sound).


Reaction and flexibility is certainly the intention of playing behind the beat. Of course, the orchestra is first and foremost an ensemble, so a lot of this is also down to the when the concertmaster wants to play to ensure everyone else's ears and sense of when things need to happen can align.

I dunno about geographic schools... maybe historically, but the story I get from guys who've played lots in US and Europe is that everyone is trying to play behind the beat these days. Amateur ensembles everywhere continue to strive to play on the front of the beat (hello brass bands!) and pop conducting is essentially cuing and following the drummer


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

A Leopold Stokowski hair-do


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

A few days ago I watched a high school orchestra performance. And they had a new teacher / conductor. Both players and conductor were beginners, and they chose a challenging piece. But I was pleased with their performance, they pulled it off well enough considering. 

But what I found funny to watch was that once the piece started both conductor and players had their heads buried in their music. Neither looked at each other once the piece started, only at the very end did each look at each other again. Not an ideal situation for either player or conductor.

The conductor must know the score inside and out, and have it practically memorized by the time of the performance. I don't know how I feel about conductors who conduct without a score - do they really have it all memorized, all the parts, all the entrances of each instrument? 

The conductor is in charge, but doesn't have to act like Toscanini. I once played in an orchestra where several times the oboe player was making suggestions and asking us to do this and that, telling us how to phrase, dynamics, tuning etc. He doesn't play with us anymore.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

senza sordino said:


> The conductor must know the score inside and out, and have it practically memorized by the time of the performance. I don't know how I feel about conductors who conduct without a score - do they really have it all memorized, all the parts, all the entrances of each instrument?


HvK used to conduct _Meistersinger_ without a score, which strikes me as total lunacy. I doubt even Wagner would've tried that.

Then inevitable happened, and he got lost and had to stop the orchestra during a production. At Bayreuth. With Herr Hitler in attendance.

He was pretty fortunate just to be banned from Bayreuth, all things considered.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Ahammel., I don't recall hearing that story about Karajan causing a trainwreck at a Meistersinger
performnce, but it could not have been at Bayreuth with Hitler attending, because Karajan did not
make his Bayreuth debut until 1951 after the war when the festival officially reopened under Wagner's
grandsons Wieland and Wolfgang ,and Hitler died at the end of the war in 1945 .
If it happened with Hitler in the audience it was more likely to have been in Berlin , where Karajan
was already active .


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

ahammel said:


> HvK used to conduct _Meistersinger_ without a score, which strikes me as total lunacy. I doubt even Wagner would've tried that.
> 
> Then inevitable happened, and he got lost and had to stop the orchestra during a production. At Bayreuth. With Herr Hitler in attendance.
> 
> He was pretty fortunate just to be banned from Bayreuth, all things considered.


Reminds me of an incident a few years ago in Lab Orchestra where a grad conductor tried to memorize some major excerpts of the Rite of Spring, but he was also kinda messing up. Points for effort, but demerit for not falling back on what's actually better to do, which is the safe way.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I've heard the story of HvK botching _Meistersinger_ a number of times, but I can't seem to dig up anything solid about it just at the moment, except that it was supposed to have been in '38 or '39. Might be an urban legend.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Hitler singled out the upcoming violinist David Oistrakh, a Jew, as a particular talent for the future, but Winifred told me that "Wolf" had only scorn for the famed conductor Herbert von Karajan after he fumbled at one point in a gala performance of Die Meistersinger for the King and Queen of Yugoslavia in June 1939. Conducting without a score, Karajan lost his way, the singers halted, the curtain was rung down in confusion. Furious, Hitler directed Winifred: "Herr von Karajan will never conduct at Bayreuth in my lifetime" -- and he did not."

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/Wagner/Hamann1.html


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

ahammel said:


> I've heard the story of HvK botching Meistersinger a number of times, but I can't seem to dig up anything solid about it


Here, let me help you:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Die-Meistersinger-von-Nürnberg/dp/B00000K4GK


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Claudio Abbado


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## Katie (Dec 13, 2013)

Big Brass Ba.........ton (oh, I know what you were thinkin'); with which to inspire energetic interpretation, boldness of sound, and tempo that does not require a Rascal*** /Katie

***Not this variety






but rather this


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)




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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

bigshot said:


> Claudio Abbado
> View attachment 30666


Haha, Abbado has done some good things though.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I want a conductor who is respected by the musicians he/she is working with. Think: Fritz Reiner, George Szell, Arturo Toscanini, Wilhelm Furtwangler.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

All the qualities of both composer and conductor, exemplified by Monsieur Pierre Boulez.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So, analytical clarity at the expense of passion?


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

hpowders said:


> So, analytical clarity at the expense of passion?


Ah yes, where "passion" = in the German tradition preferably between 1950 and 1980 + Bernstein


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

dgee said:


> Ah yes, where "passion" = in the German tradition preferably between 1950 and 1980 + Bernstein


I'd rather take the sometime undisciplined Bernstein to the clinical dissections of Boulez any day. Give me the heat of passion, even if it includes some orchestral sloppiness, which was the NY Philharmonic Bernstein conducted as music director.


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## billeames (Jan 17, 2014)

I like ones who embrace the music and move worlds like Tahnak mentioned. I want incision, not overly legato (Karajan), attack, dynamic/impact..I believe its OK to go for it even in the beginning of a piece like Furtwangler (not a popular stance) but to have an overarching strategy (hard to do). I want every note to mean something, seems like Brahms 1 gets misconducted more than anything I have heard. The energy of Dudamel, the luxury and power of Andris Nelsons (Shostakovich 10 DG), The power of Karajan (Bruckner TeDeum 1976), the incision of Szell/Toscanini, The integration of Furtwangler, the crescendos of Klemperer (Brahms Requiem EMI). The understanding of the background like Rostropovich understands Shostakovitch, where Andris Nelsons is not as depressing in Shostakovitch. Intelligence and understanding of the music as Petrenko at an early age understands Shostakovitch more than some others. 

Pace: Furtwangler speeds up at endings sometimes, but people think thats good. 

Energy: Bernstein conducts Shostakovich and Mahler like its a cataclysmic event and super important to bring the requisite energy. Yes that is good. But he can be excessive which can be troublesome. How to judge. 

In summary, incisive, impact, pace, dynamics, every note counts, good sound would help a lot also.. Carlos Kleiber was quick, incisive, energy, attacks all perfect mostly. But he didn't work much it seems. Some people think he is too fast. Celibidache (EMI but his son authorized the releases so maybe this is unfair), can be slow and not as energetic as Bernstein in some cases, but the idea is to bring out all the instruments and to conduct it the way it should be. 

Thanks Bill


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Some kind of fanaticism bordering on madness is a good starting point.


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## Dawood (Oct 11, 2015)

Vesteralen said:


> When I was younger, it was all about tempo.  Now, I'm more concerned with intensity. Nothing is worse, for me, than when I get the feeling that the conductor is just going through the motions (no matter what the tempo).
> 
> I'm much pickier when I'm watching a performance DVD or video. If I'm going to watch a performance (of anything, but especially opera or classical concerts) there has to be something about the visuals that makes me want to do more than just hear it.
> 
> I enjoyed, for example, Christian Thieleman's musical interpretation of Beethoven's 7th, but it was much better for me if I closed my eyes and didn't have to watch his mostly wooden conducting style and the stodgy old Vienna Philharmonic where absolutely no one in the orchestra looked like they were enjoying what they were doing.


This made me remember how, when I was a younger man, and started watching live performances, I found it very difficult to get around the fact that - for example - the people playing 'the Rite of Spring' looked like they were school teachers on a night out.

That bothered me. I guess having then also been a fan of music - rock music basically - where how you looked was pretty much as or more important as the musical content - it troubled me that the violinist with the Princess Diana haircut or the conductor with the comb-over just didn't scream 'Glorification of the Chosen One'!

What do I look for in a conductor? I think I want them basically to do what I would do if I was conductor. I'm draw to Karajan (not always though) because he seems to make everything sound like Huge and Awesome Drama. Which I like. But I appreciate that that doesn't always work.

Personally I blame my childhood diet of John Williams and Hollywood in general that makes me like conductors who seem to present Beethoven like he is Humanity's Greatest Argument of Worth when Judgement Day finally comes...


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't really give much credit to the conductor in particular because a lot of it is also the way the orchestra plays....but I choose some versions over the other because they play the right moments with the right qualities. There aren't any overarching indications of superiority as far as my listening sensibilities go.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As I think of a number of conductors for whom I have a very high regard - John Barbirolli, Otto Klemperer, Simon Rattle, Carlo Maria Giulini - I would say that the common factor is that they all spend time waving their arms around, sometimes aided by a sharp stick, i.e. there isn't much that they do have in common other than that they can get 80 or more musicians to do their bidding.


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