# Your least favourite aspects of classical music/industry in general?



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

What are the little things in the whole classical music culture/industry that just bug you slightly? For me, albums like this:









I don't care about your new piano, Daniel.

















Hard to explain, but if you know, then you know.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2018)

I hate it when composers have to pay to submit their works to get performed.........but the the organisation pays the musicians who perform the works but not the composer, as if the performance itself is the composer's "payment."


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

shirime said:


> I hate it when composers have to pay to submit their works to get performed.........but the the organisation pays the musicians who perform the works but not the composer, as if the performance itself is the composer's "payment."


Who asks for money shrime?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> What are the little things in the whole classical music culture/industry that just bug you slightly? For me, albums like this:
> 
> View attachment 105020
> 
> ...


What's wrong with last two?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Tallisman said:


> What are the little things in the whole classical music culture/industry that just bug you slightly?


When a performer inserts his/her personal political view into what he/she is doing. If it is a fundraiser/rally/whatever, maybe so. But if I'm paying to see a performance, I don't want a lecture on how stupid I am for not thinking like the piano player.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2018)

janxharris said:


> Who asks for money shrime?


Organisations that run a 'call for scores' often ask for composers to pay a fee to submit them. It's no problem if the fee is part of the money raised to pay the composer(s) selected for whatever the commission is, but not paying the composer at all in this case is worse than asking for a composer to do something for free. I think there is an organisation called Kaleidoscope that operates in this unethical way; they pay the musicians, but ask the composers to pay a 'submission fee' rather than actually paying the composers they select. It's bloody awful.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

View attachment 105022


Her First Decade? She looks well older than primary School age.....


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

On the subject of self-referencing album sleeves, I didn't like that Karajan series where the sleeves depicted the great man enjoying the trappings of success. On one was a plane, on another a yacht, on another a motorcycle, on another he stands looking out of a window of (one of) his luxury residence(s) etc etc. Perhaps the idea was to show that Herbie was as dynamic off the podium as much as he was on it, but as it's the consumer who buys the recordings I thought the theme was rubbing our noses in it a bit.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Manxfeeder said:


> When a performer inserts his/her personal political view into what he/she is doing. If it is a fundraiser/rally/whatever, maybe so. But if I'm paying to see a performance, I don't want a lecture on how stupid I am for not thinking like the piano player.


I do think it can be hard to separate politics (broadly) from other aspects of life. It seems to me that in a democracy there is a necessity for people to be politically aware rather than merely supporting some alignment in the same way as they might support a football team. Also, if performers choose to get political while practicing their art, they are presumably taking a risk - if we disagree we may choose to avoid them in the future - so it may be seen as commendable that they care that much?

But I do think there needs to be a link between the politics expressed and the performance: perhaps the concert is for raising money or awareness, or perhaps the work or the ensemble demonstrate or illustrate a political point, or maybe the performers feel a need to distance themselves from political messages or traditions associated with the work (for example, with Wagner).

I do also find it strange and repugnant when the audience for a concert of music with very socially aware and humane messages is filled with people who spend a large part of their lives in activities which harm others (or the environment). I feel they _should be lectured or denied the heartwarming pleasure of such art!

But, perhaps you have something specific in mind? I am not sure I can remember attending an event that was not overtly political in purpose but when the performers nevertheless decided to make political speeches._


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

janxharris said:


> What's wrong with last two?


This is marketing, of course. For me my hackles rise a little when a talented (or not so much so) young musician is marketed for her (it seems only to be done with female artists) looks. I've missed out on some records that may actually have been very good because the cover seems to be saying "look how pretty/sexy she is!". But, then, I think that marketing works quite well - at least if you judge by the punter reviews on Amazon's sites: there do seem to be a good few listeners who feel a special glow from a very ordinary performance by a pretty performer.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> This is marketing, of course. For me my hackles rise a little when a talented (or not so much so) young musician is marketed for her (it seems only to be done with female artists) looks. I've missed out on some records that may actually have been very good because the cover seems to be saying "look how pretty/sexy she is!". But, then, I think that marketing works quite well - at least if you judge by the punter reviews on Amazon's sites: there do seem to be a good few listeners who feel a special glow from a very ordinary performance by a pretty performer.


I quite agree with what you say and what I dislike about classical music industry nowdays is exactly a mentioned tendency of chasing appearance. It's huge and it's everywhere. It looks as if there were no video people would not LISTEN to classical music anymore 

How a consumer (good word for some classical music listeners) could decide which CD to buy if there were no photo of a performer on a cover of this CD?


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## Madiel (Apr 25, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> For me my hackles rise a little when a talented (or not so much so) young musician is marketed for her (it seems only to be done with female artists) looks.


looks, aesthetics, appearance: can't help but wonder what would be Logos' take on this


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> .
> 
> I do also find it strange and repugnant when the audience for a concert of music with very socially aware and humane messages is filled with people who spend a large part of their lives in activities which harm others (or the environment). I feel they _should be lectured or denied the heartwarming pleasure of such art!
> 
> _


_

I think self-appointed lecturing in controlled settings like concerts/performances (as with the Vice President by the cast of Hamilton and Daniel Barenboim at the Proms) or outright denial of service to people who don't think a certain way (i.e., asking Sarah Sanders to leave a restaurant in the middle of its first course) is heavy-handed and is not promoting dialogue; rather, it seems to be contributing to a greater division in society.

Art itself is supposed to be revelatory. As Hans Christian Anderson said, "Where words fail, music speaks." Or as George Bernard Shaw noted, "You use a glass mirror to see your face; you use works of art to see your soul."

Using the example of Hamilton, it is American history, but the cast is non-white except for King George. It highlights the role of immigrants in America's success. You don't need to go beyond that and single out one member of the audience for a lecture._


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

The elitism and superiority complex among many of its fans and musicians.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

shirime said:


> Organisations that run a 'call for scores' often ask for composers to pay a fee to submit them. It's no problem if the fee is part of the money raised to pay the composer(s) selected for whatever the commission is, but not paying the composer at all in this case is worse than asking for a composer to do something for free. I think there is an organisation called Kaleidoscope that operates in this unethical way; they pay the musicians, but ask the composers to pay a 'submission fee' rather than actually paying the composers they select. It's bloody awful.


That's pretty crappy. Is it possible to just avoid these organizations?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My pet peeve is when a record cover calls Bach or Scarlatti solo keyboard works "works for piano". They aren't piano works, and the creeps who insist on calling them piano works know that very well. It's blatantly dishonest.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

Madiel said:


> looks, aesthetics, appearance: can't help but wonder what would be Logos' take on this


I'd rather performers' photographs not be shown on album covers at all since they're almost always in a garish, cheesecake, silk and satin, hollywood "glamour" style. Instead I'd rather have a painting or photograph of the composer, or a work of art associated with the composer's time and place.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Logos said:


> I'd rather performers' photographs not be show on album covers at all since they're almost always in a garish, cheesecake, silk and satin, hollywood "glamour" style. Instead I'd rather have a painting or photograph of the composer, or a work of art associated with the composer's time and place.


Yes. I sigh softly for the days of meaningful album cover art - my LP-buying years - when an apt and beautiful cover, especially one featuring an illuminating painting from the music's cultural milieu, or at least an interpretation of a theme related to the music, was an integral part of the experience of owning and enjoying records. I still picture some of those old covers when I think of certain musical works. We still get some decent cover art, but it's not terribly effective on a small CD booklet.

The only time I enjoy seeing a photo or painting of the performer is when the recording is a collection devoted to that performer's art, and even then I prefer an image of the artist looking like a normal person at work conducting or playing.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

My least favorite aspect of classical music is really many of its enthusiasts. My experience is that classical music audiences are at least as myopic and "musically xenophobic" as audiences of any music, and perhaps a bit more so.

Or at least they, many of them, some of them at least, the ones who irritate me, hide their single genre bias under a veneer of "intellectual superiority" or "superior taste" or "superior sophistication".


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

For me it is definitely the conservatism that is so rampant in the classical music industry. At least as far as concert performances go, it can be pretty rare to see performances of even many 20th century composers, and 21st century music is even more rare. Beyond this, the works that are played are few in number and there is a good deal of great music that is simply not performed with any frequency.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

San Antone said:


> The elitism and superiority complex among many of its fans and musicians.


What do you mean I am not better than anyone else because I listen to Beethoven


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

I get really annoyed with record companies who is due boxes of CDs in the original covers, but shrunk. There are often interesting notes but of vourse it is impossible to read them without a magnifying glass.


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## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

I wish we had the kind of salons they had in the days of Chopin, Liszt and others of their time. I guess you probably had to be well connected to attend them, but what events they must have been. Imagine an evening of fun with the likes of Yuja Wang, Khatia Buniatishvili, Martha Argerich and Anne-Sophie Mutter.... And add the wine and some trifles and cheeses......


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

What I hate the most is the over-recording of the same works by the same composers. A matter of marketing I suppose. Therefore I don't buy those over-repeated discs. I prefer new works or works that have not been recorded that much.


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## Adamus (Aug 30, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> What are the little things in the whole classical music culture/industry that just bug you slightly? For me, albums like this:
> 
> View attachment 105020
> 
> ...


hard to explain but maybe it's the ego?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

shirime said:


> Organisations that run a 'call for scores' often ask for composers to pay a fee to submit them. It's no problem if the fee is part of the money raised to pay the composer(s) selected for whatever the commission is, but not paying the composer at all in this case is worse than asking for a composer to do something for free. I think there is an organisation called Kaleidoscope that operates in this unethical way; they pay the musicians, but ask the composers to pay a 'submission fee' rather than actually paying the composers they select. It's bloody awful.


If a composer doesn't like the terms then he/she wont submit.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> This is marketing, of course. For me my hackles rise a little when a talented (or not so much so) young musician is marketed for her (it seems only to be done with female artists) looks. I've missed out on some records that may actually have been very good because the cover seems to be saying "look how pretty/sexy she is!". But, then, I think that marketing works quite well - at least if you judge by the punter reviews on Amazon's sites: there do seem to be a good few listeners who feel a special glow from a very ordinary performance by a pretty performer.


It's a photo of Nicola Benedetti; what's the problem?


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

les24preludes said:


> Imagine an evening of fun with the likes of Yuja Wang, Khatia Buniatishvili...


Imagining, imagining.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2018)

MusicSybarite said:


> What I hate the most is the over-recording of the same works by the same composers. A matter of marketing I suppose. Therefore I don't buy those over-repeated discs. I prefer new works or works that have not been recorded that much.


I find this rather tiresome too. Instead of a 347th recording of a Beethoven symphony let's have more unrecorded or little recorded music put out there!


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

dogen said:


> I find this rather tiresome too. Instead of a 347th recording of a Beethoven symphony let's have more unrecorded or little recorded music put out there!


Me too ~ there's been several times that I've "discovered" a lesser known composer here on TC or YouTube, & have been surprised (& disappointed) to find out that there is literally only one or two available recordings of their works.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2018)

laurie said:


> Me too ~ there's been several times that I've "discovered" a lesser known composer here on TC or YouTube, & have been surprised (& disappointed) to find out that there is literally only one or two available recordings of their works.


Don't get me started! Through TC I've discovered the wonderful music of Victoria Borisova-Ollas. I've had an email from her saying there is one CD which is now out of production (which I'd fortunately managed to get) and she's _hoping_ other works will soon be recorded and released on CD. Outrageous I tell you, outrageous!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

dogen said:


> I find this rather tiresome too. Instead of a 347th recording of a Beethoven symphony let's have more unrecorded or little recorded music put out there!


Yeah, and there's a sporting chance it wouldn't sell any less either.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Some new music might be recorded but it's coupled with a very familiar piece. This, I suppose, is to make it more attractive to sell. I don't know. How many recordings of the Sibelius violin concerto do I need in order to have a previously unrecorded piece or rarely recorded piece? I have chosen not to buy some CDs for this reason.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2018)

DaveM said:


> That's pretty crappy. Is it possible to just avoid these organizations?


Composers at the start of their professional career often have to put up with these kinds of organisations who say 'it's for exposure.' If they pay the musicians, they should pay the composer as well.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Star said:


> I get really annoyed with record companies who is due boxes of CDs in the original covers, but shrunk. There are often interesting notes but of vourse it is impossible to read them without a magnifying glass.


Shucks, yeah! The Jean Martinon Chicago Symphoy box set reproduces the original LPs with the liner notes on the back, but they don't do me much good because I don't have an electron microscope.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

My problem with those sleeves I posted was not that they had pictures of the artists, of course! What just slightly bugs me is albums that are just about the artists. 'my flute', 'my first decade' etc. When I'm buying classical music I don't care about your 'first decade' or your 'magic flute'. I just care about what music you're playing. I can't precisely explain it, but I think it's just that it breaks the golden rule of classical music: the music is more important than the performer (and their instruments).


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Logos said:


> I'd rather performers' photographs not be shown on album covers at all since they're almost always in a garish, cheesecake, silk and satin, hollywood "glamour" style. Instead I'd rather have a painting or photograph of the composer, or a work of art associated with the composer's time and place.


Agreed. ..................


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## Adamus (Aug 30, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> This is marketing, of course. For me my hackles rise a little when a talented (or not so much so) young musician is marketed for her (it seems only to be done with female artists) looks. I've missed out on some records that may actually have been very good because the cover seems to be saying "look how pretty/sexy she is!". But, then, I think that marketing works quite well - at least if you judge by the punter reviews on Amazon's sites: there do seem to be a good few listeners who feel a special glow from a very ordinary performance by a pretty performer.


reminds me of 'my first Sony'.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

senza sordino said:


> Some new music ... How many recordings of the Sibelius violin concerto do I need .....


Lots. A great many. ALL of them.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> My problem with those sleeves I posted was not that they had pictures of the artists, of course! What just slightly bugs me is albums that are just about the artists. 'my flute', 'my first decade' etc. When I'm buying classical music I don't care about your 'first decade' or your 'magic flute'. I just care about what music you're playing. I can't precisely explain it, but I think it's just that it breaks the golden rule of classical music: the music is more important than the performer (and their instruments).


Yes. I'm with you on this.
Whether vinyl or CD, the recording is about the music. The performer(s) matter, of course, but I get really fed up with (and often avoid buying) sleeves that headline the performer, often with a dire photograph, and relegate the music to smaller print, as if a mere sub-title. 
My music-buying goes back to the wonderful 'Classics for Pleasure' series, which often had images of landscapes on the sleeve, sometimes nothing to do with the music. The connection between Holst's Planets Suite and Stonehenge was one for the cognoscenti.


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

Big, i.e. bombastic, orchestral music - which would include most of the symphonic literature; e.g. what are generally considered the greatest works. And then there's opera (except for Pelleas et Melisande). 

Call me an outlier, but aside from solo instrumental and chamber music (much of which I love) there is a huge amount of classical music that turns me off.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

There isn't a kind of music within the classical umbrella that turns me off. There is stuff I may not be in the mood for at the moment, or that I am rarely in the mood for, but its all worth my attention to one degree or another.

I especially like discovering things I haven't heard by composers I know well. And I like giving new composers a hearing or two. I may not like it at first but I am willing to give it a try, read up on it, and give it another try.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

oops, double post


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Another irritating issue, within all music but I perceive maybe more so in classical, is "obscureitis", where some kind of value is accorded a piece merely by it being more obscure. Some kind of bragging rights if your tastes are unique and if you abhor anything popular. 

It is a ridiculous property by which to rate a piece of music, just on the face of it, and it ignores that perhaps some pieces are obscure for a reason. But that is neither here nor there. The real problem, AFAIAC is when someone feels superior because they know some piece of music that most people are unfamiliar with. Like its some kind of exclusive club.

Disdain of the popular is the corollary. Maybe something is popular for a reason. Again, how many like a piece does not change the piece itself in any way. Its a ridiculous criteria. Common though in all music really. How many many of the early adopters of Dave Matthews are really irritated by how popular he has become.


Look if you like something you like it. If you don't you don't. I don't judge you, positively or negatively, for what you like, I really don't. We are all huddled masses, yearning to feel special.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

My least favorite: the constant repetition of the standard core repertoire in concert and on recordings, with small orchestras and large alike. Thank God for recordings! As a performer I have been losing interest, too, as some groups I play with keep replaying the same stuff over and over. Enough! Bring out some rare repertoire and let's refresh concerts.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> My least favorite: the constant repetition of the standard core repertoire in concert and on recordings, with small orchestras and large alike. Thank God for recordings! As a performer I have been losing interest, too, as some groups I play with keep replaying the same stuff over and over. Enough! Bring out some rare repertoire and let's refresh concerts.


While I have experienced this and I agree with you, I have a challenge, that I have taken up myself. (I play mandolin in mandolin orchestras and elsewhere.)

The challenge is this - pick some war horse of a tune, something you are just terribly tired of. Now, figure out a way to arrange, play, perform the piece in a way that the internal virtues of the piece that made it a popular war horse to begin with can be brought out and experienced as if new.

I also play folk music and very often there are fiddle tunes that just have become "dorky", or trite due to over playing. I have tried to pick them up, and change the phrasing and dynamics subtly and play it as if I meant it, as if it was the first or second time anyone had heard it and isn't this delightful.

The results have been surprising and really gratifying.

Here are some examples in the popular genre:











I know these examples are extreme. One has perhaps less freedom in a classical piece. But there is a surprising degree of expressiveness that can be achieved through phrasing and dynamics that would make someone listen a new to old music.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

But Mbhaub I don't disagree with your statement. Just thinking of a challenging way to deal with it.


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