# Ending for Turandot



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Turandot is one of the two Puccini operas which I most often return to and, like most others, I only know it with the revised Alfano ending (Alfano II). Is anyone here familiar with any of the other versions of the last scene? I have been reading about Luciano Berio's version done for G.Ricordi, Puccini's publisher. Given my experience with Berio's Rendering based on the Schubert 10th, I think that it could be very interesting, also as the logic of the ending seems to have been worked out rather better even if doesn't end on a triumphal note (but then how many of Puccin's operas do?)

It is interesting to note that Puccini wanted Riccardo Zandonai to finish it for him but Puccini's family objected to that as they thought that it would be not enough Puccini-like and had Alfano do it. Alfano, from what I can see, was a minor composer who had only one semi-successful opera.

(Please excuse typo in choices)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Alfano was actually a fine composer who wrote some beautiful music, and several of his operas have been revived and recorded. I bought a recording on Naxos of his cello sonata and was delighted with it. I have his opera _Risurrezione_ in a live recording with Magda Olivero and find it, at least with her superb interpretation of the lead role, quite moving. Alfano didn't have Puccini's gift of melody, but he certainly knew his business as a composer - and of course he didn't need to come up with melodies of his own to complete _Turandot_. I love his original ending to Puccini's opera and feel that Toscanini was being a churl in cutting it down. The final ensemble, with voices soaring and trumpets blazing, is just spectacular, and since we'll never know what Puccini would have done we might as well quit sniping and just enjoy it for what it is.

The Berio is "interesting"...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I haven't voted yet. I don't know the original Alfano, is it on YouTube?

I will need to do a listen and compare to the Alfano II and Berio versions again with score in hand to make a properly informed choice.

At the moment I agree with Woodduck and I also have the Magda Risurrezione recording which I thoroughly recommend.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Here's Alfano's original final scene:






And here's Berio's more modern take on the opera:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks  I found and listened to the Berio last night and was favourably impressed on first hearing so I will find time for the Alfano later today.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm surprised only five people have voted here.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Here's Alfano's original final scene:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I answered the poll with the first option, but now that I've heard Berio I'm not so sure. Berio is possibly my favorite modern Italian composer, especially for his interesting rearrangements and variations on older pieces.

Take a look at some of how he orchestrated Die Kunst Der Fugue:






He did stunning things like this with the work of several different composers, and I'm really beginning to consider his Turandot as a fine alternative now.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> I answered the poll with the first option, but now that I've heard Berio I'm not so sure. Berio is possibly my favorite modern Italian composer, especially for his interesting rearrangements and variations on older pieces.


The Berio ending is interesting in itself - I like bits, dislike other bits - but it's just too unlike Puccini. I realize that modern people - of which I can't pretend to be one and for that matter couldn't 66 years ago - are more accustomed to incongruity in art, whence the embrace of regietheater in some quarters. If we use Berio's ending why don't we just set the opera in the China of Chairman Mao?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> The Berio ending is interesting in itself - I like bits, dislike other bits - but it's just too unlike Puccini. I realize that modern people - of which I can't pretend to be one and for that matter couldn't 66 years ago - are more accustomed to incongruity in art, whence the embrace of regietheater in some quarters. If we use Berio's ending why don't we just set the opera in the China of Chairman Mao?


You have a point. As a standalone work it's great, but I can see how it would damage the continuity of Turandot. However, I wouldn't say he violated the character of it to the extent that we're listening to "the China of Chairmain Mao". On my part, at least, I didn't have too much trouble picturing Puccini's wholly fictional Chinese court.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Listening to the Alfano and Berio versions shows the extent of Puccini's sketches (all the best vocal melodies and some harmonies are Puccini) and whilst I love the Berio, if it were meant to appease those who feel that Alfano's ending doesn't do justice to Puccini's style, then it fails as it is even further from Puccini.

One frequent criticism of Alfano's (second) ending are the fortissimo chords during the kiss, but this is markedly different in Alfano I and I find his first thoughts much more dramatically convincing for the scenario (Turandot's hurt pride comes across better in this version and it makes it easier to understand how she comes round to admitting that she has been fighting her love for Calaf since she first saw him). However, there is much in Alfano I that sounds too much like Alfano's style rather than Puccini's and so I think current performing practice (finishing with Alfano II) is the most appropriate way to end a performance of the complete opera.

That said, the poll asks which ending you prefer, not which makes the best ending to the opera and so I voted for Alfano I as I love some of the stretches in between the Puccini moments where we get some pure Alfano.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Listening to the Alfano and Berio versions shows the extent of Puccini's sketches (all the best vocal melodies and some harmonies are Puccini) and whilst I love the Berio, if it were meant to appease those who feel that Alfano's ending doesn't do justice to Puccini's style, then it fails as it is even further from Puccini.
> 
> One frequent criticism of Alfano's (second) ending are the fortissimo chords during the kiss, but this is markedly different in Alfano I and *I find his first thoughts much more dramatically convincing for the scenario* (Turandot's hurt pride comes across better in this version and it makes it easier to understand how she comes round to admitting that she has been fighting her love for Calaf since she first saw him). However, there is much in Alfano I that sounds too much like Alfano's style rather than Puccini's and so I think current performing practice (finishing with Alfano II) is the most appropriate way to end a performance of the complete opera.
> 
> ...


Turandot's "conversion," and how it can compensate us for, much less justify, what we've just witnessed, is the big dramatic problem in this opera. Once Liu has been carried off the stage and we're all sitting here heartbroken and furious at this harpy, we need, at the very least, time to move on. Alfano's original ending gives us a bit more time, even at some cost of musical concision, and if in some moments it's more Alfano than Puccini, pure Alfano isn't too shabby, or too incongruous, as Berio is. I don't think anything, including anything Puccini himself might have done, could make this story entirely palatable to me, but the work is too musically enchanting to dismiss purely out of moral scruples. I want to hear a terrific ending, and Alfano delivers. I confess I have to have the original just for the last two incredible minutes: I heard a recording (possibly the first one ever made) on the radio some twenty years ago and was amazed; I couldn't imagine why it wasn't being used in the opera house. I'd call it the most stupendous ending Puccini never wrote - the protagonists' voices soaring above the ensemble, and those trumpets! Here's another performance of the last ten minutes:






I think Puccini himself might have smiled at his friend's good work.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Turandot's "conversion," and how it can compensate us for, much less justify, what we've just witnessed is the big dramatic problem in this opera. Once Liu has been carried off the stage and we're all sitting here heartbroken and furious at this harpy, we need, at the very least, time to move on. Alfano's original ending gives us a bit more time, even at some cost of musical concision, and if in some moments it's more Alfano than Puccini, pure Alfano isn't too shabby, or too incongruous, as Berio is. I don't think anything, including anything Puccini himself might have done, could make this story entirely palatable to me, but the work is too musically enchanting to dismiss purely out of moral scruples. I want to hear a terrific ending, and Alfano delivers. I confess I have to have the original just for the last two incredible minutes: I heard a recording (possibly the first one ever made) on the radio some twenty years ago and was amazed; I couldn't imagine why it wasn't being used in the opera house. I'd call it the most stupendous ending Puccini never wrote - the protagonists' voices soaring above the ensemble, and those trumpets! Here's another performance of the last ten minutes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't sure about the ending with the voices soaring over the ensemble. However, I need to hear it again in a different recording to get a better idea of what Alfano was doing there. I totally agree about the rest of your comments. It's not just the audience who needs to get over what happens to Liu', Calaf does too and it all makes better sense in Alfano I. Do you know if Alfano II is a rewrite by Alfano or is it Alfano I with changes by Toscanini? I think a composite of Alfano I and II might actually make the best ending of all.

N.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

An interesting point, for what it's worth, is that Alfano composed out all the text that Puccini had for the ending whereas Berio only did those parts for which Puccini had left sketches. My issue with Alfano II (and I admit to never having heard his original) is that it is all a bit too 'pat', i.e. how to wrap up a half hour program on a high. From a more logical standpoint, Berio makes much more sense even if he occasionally strays a bit far from Puccinian style, but then at that time, Puccini had been interested in and was exploring 'modern' works.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Becca said:


> An interesting point, for what it's worth, is that Alfano composed out all the text that Puccini had for the ending whereas Berio only did those parts for which Puccini had left sketches. My issue with Alfano II (and I admit to never having heard his original) is that it is all a bit too 'pat', i.e. how to wrap up a half hour program on a high. From a more logical standpoint, Berio makes much more sense even if he occasionally strays a bit far from Puccinian style, but then at that time, Puccini had been interested in and was exploring 'modern' works.


I agree, you need to get on YouTube and listen to Alfano I, it's quite extraordinary that Toscanini rejected some of the best parts of it.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I wasn't sure about the ending with the voices soaring over the ensemble. However, I need to hear it again in a different recording to get a better idea of what Alfano was doing there. I totally agree about the rest of your comments. It's not just the audience who needs to get over what happens to Liu', Calaf does too and it all makes better sense in Alfano I. Do you know if Alfano II is a rewrite by Alfano or is it Alfano I with changes by Toscanini? I think a composite of Alfano I and II might actually make the best ending of all.
> 
> N.


I think the abridgement was all Toscanini's work. I don't know what Alfano's reaction was to having half his work excised, but then I don't know anything about Alfano. Now I'm kinda curious.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Conte said:


> I agree, you need to get on YouTube and listen to Alfano I, it's quite extraordinary that Toscanini rejected some of the best parts of it.
> 
> N.[/QUOTE
> 
> I think Toscanini's statement at the premiere was more in remembrance of Puccini than a criticism of Alfano.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The Conte said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, you need to get on YouTube and listen to Alfano I, it's quite extraordinary that Toscanini rejected some of the best parts of it.
> ...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Alfano 1 is one of the more convincing (and skilled) completions you'll hear of any "unfinished" work, IMHO.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Worth noting the ending composed by the Chinese composer Hao Wei-ya in 2008. I'm not sure if I'm completely convinced by it, but I am sure I'm not convinced by Alfano I or II or Berio.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Worth noting the ending composed by the Chinese composer Hao Wei-ya in 2008. I'm not sure if I'm completely convinced by it, but I am sure I'm not convinced by Alfano I or II or Berio.


This one doesn't work for me. It's largely pastiche, with oddly chosen quotes from elsewhere in the opera and even reminiscences of other music. When Calaf kisses Turandot we hear music from the end of Liu's aria "Signore ascolta." Terrible idea! Later on we get a bit of "Nessun dorma," though I couldn't guess why. There's a brief moment when we think we might hear "Recondita armonia" from _Tosca_ (thankfully we don't), and when Turandot says to the emperor that she knows Calaf's name the orchestra takes off with something that sounds lifted from Respighi's Roman Trilogy. In between all this is music that sounds nothing like Puccini but evokes the world of the Yellow River Concerto, and finally the ending is an unecstatic, pompous processional.

It has some lovely moments, but it doesn't cohere as music and skates over what depth the story has. Alfano's is a masterpiece compared to this hackwork.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Becca said:


> Alfano, from what I can see, was a minor composer who had only one semi-successful opera.


I disagree, Alfano was NOT a minor composer.
Alfano was one of the best italian operist in the 20th century.
His La leggenda di Sakuntala is one of the 20th century italian Opera masterpiece.
Risurrezione, as already pointed out by Woodduck, is quite good too.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Yes, of course Alfano was an accomplished composer that wrote himself several nice operas.

Arguably, the more succesful today is "Cyrano de Bergerac". I attended a live performance a few years ago, and it was recently staged also at several major theaters, including New York's MET.

But my favorite is indeed "Risurrezione":


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> This one doesn't work for me. It's largely pastiche, with oddly chosen quotes from elsewhere in the opera and even reminiscences of other music. When Calaf kisses Turandot we hear music from the end of Liu's aria "Signore ascolta." Terrible idea! Later on we get a bit of "Nessun dorma," though I couldn't guess why. There's a brief moment when we think we might hear "Recondita armonia" from _Tosca_ (thankfully we don't), and when Turandot says to the emperor that she knows Calaf's name the orchestra takes off with something that sounds lifted from Respighi's Roman Trilogy. In between all this is music that sounds nothing like Puccini but evokes the world of the Yellow River Concerto, and finally the ending is an unecstatic, pompous processional.
> 
> It has some lovely moments, but it doesn't cohere as music and skates over what depth the story has. Alfano's is a masterpiece compared to this hackwork.


Hm, your response pretty vividly describes how I feel about Alfano's endings--basically a hacky pastiche. I don't disagree about the melange that Hao put together (although I can see his point of trying to put some of Liu and Calaf's music into Turandot, as a representation of how those two broke Turandot's spell) but I think the emotional pitch is closer/more appealing than the generally brassy and pompous Alfano endings.

I don't doubt that some like Alfano's music but what little I've heard sounds like the typical artificial celebratory kitsch written by artists drawn to or encouraged by political totalitarianism. Without knowing anything about him, the many times I heard his ending, I thought it sounded like the Italian version of something playing over a poor Leni Riefenstahl knockoff, and it was the least surprising fact in the world when I learned that Alfano was in fact cozy with Mussolini's regime.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

howlingfantods said:


> I don't doubt that some like Alfano's music but what little I've heard sounds like the typical artificial celebratory kitsch written by artists drawn to or encouraged by political totalitarianism. *Without knowing anything about him*, the many times I heard his ending, I thought it sounded like the Italian version of something playing over a poor Leni Riefenstahl knockoff, and it was the least surprising fact in the world when I learned that Alfano was in fact cozy with Mussolini's regime.


Yep and it shows.

Every italian composer who wanted to be performed in Italy in that period had to be cozy with Mussolini.
Under the Fascist regime began the statalization of Opera Houses, EIAR (national radio broadcast that soon would became one of the main driving force behind the execution of contemporary italian "classical" music), the institution of new festival like Maggio Musicale Fiorentino and Biennale di Venezia.

You may like or not what Alfano composed (and Toscanini redacted) for Turandot's finale but it has very little to do with Mussolini/fascism and even very little to do with Alfano stature as a composer.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Bardamu said:


> Yep and it shows.
> 
> Every italian composer who wanted to be performed in Italy in that period had to be cozy with Mussolini.
> Under the Fascist regime began the statalization of Opera Houses, EIAR (national radio broadcast that soon would became one of the main driving force behind the execution of contemporary italian "classical" music), the institution of new festival like Maggio Musicale Fiorentino and Biennale di Venezia.
> ...


*shrug* I'm no scholar of minor composers but from what I've read--abstracts of papers and so forth--it sounds like his embrace of Mussolini was complete and is more accurately characterized as active admiration rather than reluctant submission. And again without even knowing that fact, his music pretty perfectly characterizes the music that a cultural historian would use to demonstrate the prevalence of artificiality and kitsch under totalitarian regimes.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Someone has said that although Alfano's ending is not perfect by any means, it's probably the best we've got.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Hm, your response pretty vividly describes how I feel about Alfano's endings--basically a hacky pastiche. I don't disagree about the melange that Hao put together (although I can see his point of trying to put some of Liu and Calaf's music into Turandot, as a representation of how those two broke Turandot's spell) but I think the emotional pitch is closer/more appealing than the generally brassy and pompous Alfano endings.
> 
> I don't doubt that some like Alfano's music but what little I've heard sounds like the typical artificial celebratory kitsch written by artists drawn to or encouraged by political totalitarianism. Without knowing anything about him, the many times I heard his ending, I thought it sounded like the Italian version of something playing over a poor Leni Riefenstahl knockoff, and it was the least surprising fact in the world when I learned that Alfano was in fact cozy with Mussolini's regime...his music pretty perfectly characterizes the music that a cultural historian would use to demonstrate the prevalence of artificiality and kitsch under totalitarian regimes.


I fully respect all differences in taste, and I don't doubt that Alfano's music (how much of it have you heard?) does indeed suggest to your imagination what you say it does. But I have to say that "typical artificial celebratory kitsch written by artists drawn to or encouraged by political totalitarianism," "the Italian version of something playing over a poor Leni Riefenstahl knockoff," and "the music that a cultural historian would use to demonstrate the prevalence of artificiality and kitsch under totalitarian regimes" are not categories of music I recognize, and I seriously doubt that any such categories exist, or that any cultural historian would be using whatever you're talking about to demonstrate any theories about the sociology of art.

As I listen to Alfano's setting of Puccini's libretto, and hear what seems to me a faithful attempt to express its meaning musically while incorporating - in quite logical ways, I think - the musical sketches he left, I don't even see much opportunity for the expression of the sorts of things you say you hear in it. But, as the kids say...

Whatever.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I fully respect all differences in taste, and I don't doubt that Alfano's music (how much of it have you heard?) does indeed suggest to your imagination what you say it does. But I have to say that "typical artificial celebratory kitsch written by artists drawn to or encouraged by political totalitarianism," "the Italian version of something playing over a poor Leni Riefenstahl knockoff," and "the music that a cultural historian would use to demonstrate the prevalence of artificiality and kitsch under totalitarian regimes" are not categories of music I recognize, and I seriously doubt that any such categories exist, or that any cultural historian would be using whatever you're talking about to demonstrate any theories about the sociology of art.
> 
> As I listen to Alfano's setting of Puccini's libretto, and hear what seems to me a faithful attempt to express its meaning musically while incorporating - in quite logical ways, I think - the musical sketches he left, I don't even see much opportunity for the expression of the sorts of things you say you hear in it. But, as the kids say...
> 
> Whatever.


There's about a million books about totalitarianism and art. I understand and sympathize with your struggles to try to deny any threads that are constantly being drawn between Wagner and totalitarian art, which I agree are pretty tenuous. But in this case, we are talking about an active and enthusiastic fascist who embraced and was embraced by Mussolini, and whose artistic style seems like a pretty typical exemplar of what the thousands of cultural historians talk about when they talk about totalitarianism and art.

Whatever, indeed.

edited to add - by the way, I'm thinking you're offended by this line of argument because you think the implication that I'm making is that fans of this art are fascists. That is certainly not my contention. I think the art itself is bad, and I think it's bad in the particular way that much totalitarian art is bad. Some totalitarian art is pretty good though, like the aforementioned Leni Riefenstahl, but even if Alfano's were the very best of totalitarian art, that style seems extremely ill matched to the style and content and intent of Puccini's opera.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> There's about a million books about totalitarianism and art. I understand and sympathize with your struggles to try to deny any threads that are constantly being drawn between Wagner and totalitarian art, which I agree are pretty tenuous. But in this case, we are talking about an active and enthusiastic fascist who embraced and was embraced by Mussolini, *and whose artistic style seems like a pretty typical exemplar of what the thousands of cultural historians talk about when they talk about totalitarianism and art.*
> 
> Whatever, indeed.
> 
> edited to add - by the way, I'm thinking you're offended by this line of argument because you think the implication that I'm making is that fans of this art are fascists. That is certainly not my contention. I think the art itself is bad, and I think it's bad in the particular way that much totalitarian art is bad. Some totalitarian art is pretty good though, like the aforementioned Leni Riefenstahl, but even if Alfano's were the very best of totalitarian art, that style seems extremely ill matched to the style and content and intent of Puccini's opera.


I would be interested to know what it is about Alfano's style that you think has a link with totalitarianism and art. How is the style of say Risurrezione compared with that of La fanciula del West an example of totalitarian art but that of Fanciula is not?

Alfano has a similar style to the other verismo composers or do you think all verismo opera is in someway fascist?

N.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I would be interested to know what it is about Alfano's style that you think has a link with totalitarianism and art. How is the style of say Risurrezione compared with that of La fanciula del West an example of totalitarian art but that of Fanciula is not?
> 
> Alfano has a similar style to the other verismo composers or do you think all verismo opera is in someway fascist?
> 
> N.


*shrug* no idea about Risurrezione. My knowledge and interest in Alfano pretty much starts and ends with the Turandot ending. Which ending Alex Ross once described as "an orgy of crude triumphalism", which I think is as good a description of the totalitarian style of art as any.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> There's about a million books about totalitarianism and art. I understand and sympathize with your struggles to try to deny any threads that are constantly being drawn between Wagner and totalitarian art, which I agree are pretty tenuous. But in this case, we are talking about an active and enthusiastic fascist who embraced and was embraced by Mussolini, and whose artistic style seems like a pretty typical exemplar of what the thousands of cultural historians talk about when they talk about totalitarianism and art.
> 
> Whatever, indeed.
> 
> edited to add - by the way, I'm thinking you're offended by this line of argument because you think the implication that I'm making is that fans of this art are fascists. That is certainly not my contention. I think the art itself is bad, and I think it's bad in the particular way that much totalitarian art is bad. Some totalitarian art is pretty good though, like the aforementioned Leni Riefenstahl, but even if Alfano's were the very best of totalitarian art, that style seems extremely ill matched to the style and content and intent of Puccini's opera.


What bothers me is the attempt to link musical style with so concrete a thing as totalitarian politics. Do you really think music can embody such concepts? And did Alfano's political inclinations really determine his musical style in a meaningful and identifiable way? I have heard two Alfano operas (_Risurrezione_ and _Sakuntala_) and some chamber music in addition to his work on _Turandot_, and for the life of me I cannot even begin to imagine Mussolini or politics or anything remotely related to them. Nor do I see how this music, even though it doesn't match Puccini's style precisely, is untrue to the story of the opera, or how it introduces a truly alien sensibility such as you seem to think it does. You may find the last couple of minutes of it vulgar or "kitschy" as compared to, say, _Otello_ or _Parsifal_, but it is brilliantly written and dramatically faithful, and surely a lover of so extravagantly artificial an art form as opera must admit that "kitsch" is somewhat in the ear of the beholder. I find it no more kitschy than the faux-Chinese scenario of the opera itself, in which I feel that Puccini attempts a fable of mythical dimension but falls rather short of that objective.

Your remarks are similar to those of some who criticize the music of Shostakovich. But at least in his case there were actual political factors that influenced some of his musical choices. I seriously question an attempt to understand Alfano's music in such terms.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> *shrug* I'm no scholar of minor composers but from what I've read--abstracts of papers and so forth--it sounds like his embrace of Mussolini was complete and is more accurately characterized as active admiration rather than reluctant submission. And again without even knowing that fact, his music pretty perfectly characterizes the music that a cultural historian would use to demonstrate the prevalence of artificiality and kitsch under totalitarian regimes.


Is what Alfano thought or not thought of Mussolini so offputting?
He was a great composer and whatever you think of Mussolini´s regime it was an era when some of the best Italian operas and other music was made.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> *shrug* no idea about Risurrezione.


It's a good opera and deserves to be better known (I would put it on the same level as Fedora, which has been performed more often). It may not be as melodically inspired as Andrea Chenier or Adriana Lecouvreur, but I imagine a good performance could be more dramatically satisfying in the theatre than either of those two. Why not give the YouTube link in this thread (on page 2 above) a try?

N.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> What bothers me is the attempt to link musical style with so concrete a thing as totalitarian politics. Do you really think music can embody such concepts? And did Alfano's political inclinations really determine his musical style in a meaningful and identifiable way? I have heard two Alfano operas (_Risurrezione_ and _Sakuntala_) and some chamber music in addition to his work on _Turandot_, and for the life of me I cannot even begin to imagine Mussolini or politics or anything remotely related to them. Nor do I see how this music, even though it doesn't match Puccini's style precisely, is untrue to the story of the opera, or how it introduces a truly alien sensibility such as you seem to think it does. You may find the last couple of minutes of it vulgar or "kitschy" as compared to, say, _Otello_ or _Parsifal_, but it is brilliantly written and dramatically faithful, and surely a lover of so extravagantly artificial an art form as opera must admit that "kitsch" is somewhat in the ear of the beholder. I find it no more kitschy than the faux-Chinese scenario of the opera itself, in which I feel that Puccini attempts a fable of mythical dimension but falls rather short of that objective.
> 
> Your remarks are similar to those of some who criticize the music of Shostakovich. But at least in his case there were actual political factors that influenced some of his musical choices. I seriously question an attempt to understand Alfano's music in such terms.


I don't think music embodies political concepts, but I do think art and music can be representative and characteristic of the culture. Especially under 20th century totalitarian regimes, art and music production were controlled and united with propaganda arms of the state, and a recognizably consistent aesthetic emanated from these states. I don't think any of this is really news, is it?

Shostakovich is an interesting case because he was a great artist operating in one of these states, and whose artistic sensibilities were radically at odds with the approved totalitarian style--ironic, atonal and modern instead of crude, traditional, tonal, sentimental and triumphalist. His decades long struggle to remain an artist in good standing under the oppressive regime led him to write music that progressive musical figures like Boulez and Salonen deride as reactionary but that the Party apparatchiks periodically denounced as formalist, decadent and Western. Poor guy had a tough row to ***. He did write some absolutely brilliant pieces--I think his 8th string quartet is one of the great 20th century chamber works--but I think having to camouflage his artistic sensibilities made many of his large scale public works solipsistic and self-referential.

Edited to add--huh. Apparently this board automatically replaces the second word in the rhyming phrase "tough row to etc" meaning to till some soil for planting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I don't think music embodies political concepts, but I do think art and music can be representative and characteristic of the culture. Especially under 20th century totalitarian regimes, art and music production were controlled and united with propaganda arms of the state, and a recognizably consistent aesthetic emanated from these states. I don't think any of this is really news, is it?
> 
> Shostakovich is an interesting case because he was a great artist operating in one of these states, and whose artistic sensibilities were radically at odds with the approved totalitarian style--ironic, atonal and modern instead of crude, traditional, tonal, sentimental and triumphalist. His decades long struggle to remain an artist in good standing under the oppressive regime led him to write music that progressive musical figures like Boulez and Salonen deride as reactionary but that the Party apparatchiks periodically denounced as formalist, decadent and Western. Poor guy had a tough row to ***. He did write some absolutely brilliant pieces--I think his 8th string quartet is one of the great 20th century chamber works--but I think having to camouflage his artistic sensibilities made many of his large scale public works solipsistic and self-referential.
> 
> Edited to add--huh. Apparently this board automatically replaces the second word in the rhyming phrase "tough row to etc" meaning to till some soil for planting.


I can't disagree with anything here. I merely have to insist that your reaction to two minutes of spectacular music at the end of a long operatic scene is personal to you, that I hear it quite differently, and that the music itself can't objectively be accused of representing anything but one composer's attempt to realize the intentions of another as indicated in the opera's libretto. The melodic substance of it is Puccini's own, the scoring is brilliant, the dramatic idea is one of celebration, and the attempt to tie it to some general concept of "totalitarian triumphalism" or whatever has no basis I can see outside your own feelings about it. References to Alfano's political attitudes are no more evidence of anything than are references to Wagner's antisemitism by those who cannot dissociate the _Ring_ from Hitler and who therefore imagine its music as "fascist."


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I can't disagree with anything here. I merely have to insist that your reaction to two minutes of spectacular music at the end of a long operatic scene is personal to you, that I hear it quite differently, and that the music itself can't objectively be accused of representing anything but one composer's attempt to realize the intentions of another as indicated in the opera's libretto. The melodic substance of it is Puccini's own, the scoring is brilliant, the dramatic idea is one of celebration, and the attempt to tie it to some general concept of "totalitarian triumphalism" or whatever has no basis I can see outside your own feelings about it. References to Alfano's political attitudes are no more evidence of anything than are references to Wagner's antisemitism by those who cannot dissociate the _Ring_ from Hitler and imagine its music as "fascist."


I think you're misunderstanding the causality here--you're thinking that I disliked Alfano's ending because of his connections to fascism. But I disliked the ending long before I knew of those connections, and my take was that it was an "orgy of crude triumphalism" (to borrow Alex Ross's vivid description again), and that would be my take even if Alfano was a flag-waving burkean republican or royalist or whatever his political stripe.

eta- also, I never said nor implied that it's illegitimate to like his work, so I'm not sure what your comments about this being my personal reactions are about. I never said it wasn't--in fact, it seems to be yours and others opinions here that my distaste for this ending is illegitimate. Of course my opinion is personal to me but I'm hardly the only person who thinks this ending is crude, vulgar, etc. Probably the majority opinion if anything.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I think you're misunderstanding the causality here--you're thinking that I disliked Alfano's ending because of his connections to fascism. But I disliked the ending long before I knew of those connections, and my take was that it was an "orgy of crude triumphalism" (to borrow Alex Ross's vivid description again), and that would be my take even if Alfano was a flag-waving burkean republican or royalist or whatever his political stripe.
> 
> eta- also, I never said nor implied that it's illegitimate to like his work, so I'm not sure what your comments about this being my personal reactions are about. I never said it wasn't--in fact, it seems to be yours and others opinions here that my distaste for this ending is illegitimate. Of course my opinion is personal to me but I'm hardly the only person who thinks this ending is crude, vulgar, etc. Probably the majority opinion if anything.


No, it isn't your distaste for the music that's illegitimate. Nobody's taste is illegitimate. And no, I'm not thinking that you dislike Alfano's music because of his politics. I just think that any attempt to associate that music with an ideology - with a concept of totalitarian aesthetics - is purely personal and has no validity for the rest of us. Fascist propaganda art may be what it makes _you_ think of, but that's in your head and nowhere in the music or in Alfano's intentions. Still less are his political inclinations relevant to it, so why say that you were not surprised that he was cozy with Mussolini's regime?

I really must ask: do you think the finale should _not_ have been triumphalist in mood? What else do you see implied by the libretto, which I believe Alfano set as written? Love (whatever that means between these strange characters) has won, pathetic little Liu has been swept under the carpet, and Nero and Poppea - I mean, Calaf and Turandot - ascend to the throne of China. If this were anything but a fairy tale with pretensions to symbolism (strained, I think), we would judge their heartless obsessions monstrous, and would castigate Puccini, not Alfano, for killing right before our eyes the only sympathetic person in the entire story and then celebrating the triumph of lust on top of her corpse. This is a barbaric tale in essence, not "The Sleeping Beauty," and arguably the music could have used a little _more_ "totalitarian triumphalism"!

Recently an essay by Victor Gollancz was posted here, in which he tried to describe Wagner's _Ring,_ even its music, as "fascist" in spirit, and said that he couldn't watch the _Ring_ without remembering the fate of the Jews. I think people who have negative associations with works of music need to mention them, if at all, in a way that doesn't seem to grant them any necessary or widespread validity. It's fine to say that you find music vulgar; most people will take that as an expression of taste. But when you start suggesting that it's part of a larger cultural and political phenomenon, and start mentioning the composer's presumed political leanings, you lose credibility unless you can produce hard evidence of your contentions.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

The challenge of writing the right music for the ending of _Turandot_, it's a really tough one, and Puccini himself was fighting with it before his death. In a sense, it's like composing a beautiful duet for Pinkerton and Kate, after Butterfly's seppuku. True, it's a fairy tale, coming from Carlo Gozzi and the "Commedia dell'Arte", but Puccini's treatment is dramatic enough. The characters are intended to be real men and women, rather than tragicomedy's archetypes. That's why the death of Liù is so painful to the audience, and it's so difficult to arrange a happy, blissful ending after her suicide. The redemption of Turandot by her love for Calaf, it's not really working at this stage. It would really need a kind of supremely gifted score to make it happen. Of course, Puccini was potentially able to produce such a score, but it was hopeless to require it from Alfano. He made a good job, with an impossible material.

But who knows?. At the end of _L'incoronazione di Poppea_ it seems very difficult to redeem Nerone and Poppea, but I think "pur ti miro, pur ti godo" (that was not even written by Monteverdi) makes the trick for us.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

schigolch said:


> The challenge of writing the right music for the ending of _Turandot_, it's a really tough one, and Puccini himself was fighting with it before his death. In a sense, it's like composing a beautiful duet for Pinkerton and Kate, after Butterfly's seppuku. True, it's a fairy tale, coming from Carlo Gozzi and the "Commedia dell'Arte", but Puccini's treatment is dramatic enough. The characters are intended to be real men and women, rather than tragicomedy's archetypes. That's why the death of Liù is so painful to the audience, and it's so difficult to arrange a happy, blissful ending after her suicide. The redemption of Turandot by her love for Calaf, it's not really working at this stage. It would really need a kind of supremely gifted score to make it happen. Of course, Puccini was potentially able to produce such a score, but it was hopeless to require it from Alfano. He made a good job, with an impossible material.
> 
> But who knows?. At the end of _L'incoronazione di Poppea_ it seems very difficult to redeem Nerone and Poppea, but I think "pur ti miro, pur ti godo" (that was not even written by Monteverdi) makes the trick for us.


It's amazing what music can seduce us into enjoying. How about teenage sex with the bloody head of a decapitated prophet?


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> I really must ask: do you think the finale should _not_ have been triumphalist in mood? What else do you see implied by the libretto, which I believe Alfano set as written? Love (whatever that means between these strange characters) has won, pathetic little Liu has been swept under the carpet, and Nero and Poppea - I mean, Calaf and Turandot - ascend to the throne of China. If this were anything but a fairy tale with pretensions to symbolism (strained, I think), we would judge their heartless obsessions monstrous, and would castigate Puccini, not Alfano, for killing right before our eyes the only sympathetic person in the entire story and then celebrating the triumph of lust on top of her corpse. This is a barbaric tale in essence, not "The Sleeping Beauty," and arguably the music could have used a little _more_ "totalitarian triumphalism"!


Ha, it's hard to disagree with that. This may have been the most confusing opera that I liked; I've never understood the ending.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> Ha, it's hard to disagree with that. This may have been the most confusing opera that I liked; I've never understood the ending.


I just accept it as it is.
Calaf gets the girl of his dreams HURRAH!!.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> Ha, it's hard to disagree with that. This may have been the most confusing opera that I liked; I've never understood the ending.


Puccini's conception, as I understand it, was that Turandot was a sort of magical being who needed to learn how to be truly human, and it took the persistence of Calaf and the death - for the sake of love - of Liu to bring that humanization about. Liu appears as a sort of Christ figure, who loves Calaf because love is her nature, not because he deserves love or returns her love, and that when Turandot sees a love so great that it embraces even death she experiences "conversion" or "salvation." This seems quite Christian to me: the love of Christ for us is so great that he accepts even death, the witnessing of which leads us to consciousness of our sins and to repentance.

I'm not sure how far the analogy can be taken, as the death of Christ is considered by Christian orthodoxy to be God's substitute for the fate which is actually deserved by mankind, and no such divine plan is in evidence in _Turandot_. But we are expected in both cases to regard the death of the pure and innocent as a fair price to pay for the salvation of others. I guess we can have different feelings about this, and it seems Puccini's own feelings were ambivalent: if he had really felt that Liu's death was some sort of redemptive sacrifice, it's hard to see why he would have lingered so long over it musically, as if he wanted to engrave the sorrow of it deep into our hearts. Perhaps it's an acknowledgement that spiritual progress can be achieved only at the cost of great pain. But it does leave him with the problem of making the necessity of Liu's death seem clear and acceptable to us, given that up to this point Turandot has done nothing, and Calaf very little, to elicit our sympathy on any level. Could he have done it? I personally doubt it, but we'll never know.


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