# Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji



## Lukecash12

Quote (not a biography but a description of some his music):

"Paradoxically, the more we discover about Sorabji's output, the more complex his creative personality appears to be. As a case in point, consider 'A Nest of Boxes', a half-hour suite of 'nested' variations, in which each piece epitomises in miniature a characteristic Sorabjian genre, written for one of the very few performers who played Sorabji's music during his lifetime, Harold Rutland. So we have a chorale prelude of cumulative intensity; a tropical nocturne; two toccatas of contrasting texture and the customary blistering virtuosity; a gorgeous chorale like a glimpse into the incense-laden atmosphere of a Mass in some great cathedral, a Richard Strauss parody that seems to have wandered in from the Hoffnung concerts, and so on. Add to this the almost unique feature of verbal in-jokes in the guise of performance directions, and we have a sketch of Sorabji's working methods that conceals more than it reveals, which is also a tremendously exciting piece of kaleidoscopic contrasts and quicksilver variation of mood. St Bertrand sticks to one idea; the kind of highly virtuosic, compact free fantasia that embodies the kind of pianism that Sorabji was investigating in the 1940s, of which the summit, as we now know thanks to Mr Powell, was the Concerto per suonare da me solo. Based on a ghost story by M.R. James, St Bertrand is an essay in narrative drama and richly textured atmosphere. By way of the most extreme contrast, Djâmî is one of the finest example of the composer's elaborate, ornamented hothouse 'tropical nocturne' genre. Named for the Persian poet Jami and prefaced by a quotation from his masterpiece 'Yusuf and Zulaikha', the work mirrors the complex argument and obsessively detailed description of Islamic poetry and art in Sorabji's most harmonically rich and intoxicating style. Unusually in Sorabji's output, and probably a result of its connection to his Persian heritage, the piece contains gestures which seem explicitly to evoke Eastern musical idioms."

And here's an interview conducted by Michael Habermann:

Part 1. 




Part 2. 




Part 3.


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## Itullian

*Sorabji*

Man, this guy is out there.

Talk about his music and the artists that play it, please.

mind boggling stuff.


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## Tapkaara

I know of him but I am hesitant to sit through pieces of music longer than a few hours.


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## Itullian

a section at a time. that's the way i got to love all the larger great works.


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## Guest

I flew from CA to NY (and I have a terrible fear of flying!) to hear Jonathan Powell play Sorabji's four-hour Opus Clavicumbalisticum about 7-8 years ago. Epic doesn't begin to describe it! I just love wallowing in the dense counterpoint and textures in all of his music. I wish more would get recorded, especially some of his chamber and symphonic works.


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## HexameronVI

At first, I didn't like him at all.

But I slowly took in some of his smaller works, and worked up to listening to his Opus C (but only some parts). Now, I think he's a little crazy, but crazy enough to enjoy.


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## Sequentia

Itullian said:


> Talk about his [Sorabji's] music and the artists that play it, please.


OK, I will try to contribute something. 

It is usually expected that a Sorabji discussion will sooner or later make mention of the four-hour work "Opus clavicembalisticum". Personally I think that Sorabji wrote numerous better pieces during his long (some 70 years) compositional career; pieces which are more successful in terms of variation of mood, treatment of a theme, etc. David Carter is currently working on creating a virtual rendition of his Toccata No. 2 for Piano (which you can check out at http://www.davetubaking.com/10.html), and so far I definitely like it more than "Opus clavicembalisticum".

Personally I feel that the best performers of Sorabji are Kevin Bowyer, Jonathan Powell and Fredrik Ullén. Most of the other performers I have had the opportunity to hear so far are inferior to them musically and technically, but generally acceptable. Ogdon's and especially Madge's recordings of "Opus clavicembalisticum" are both inadequate and I'm strongly convinced that Madge's "recording" of it has done serious damage to Sorabji's reputation (and it still continues to do so, given that it is easier to find than Powell's superlative performances of other Sorabji pieces). The same goes for Kentaro Noda's atrocious live performances of Sorabji's "Études transcendantes (100)".

In any case, I look forward to future performances of Sorabji's last four works for piano and orchestra (Piano Concerto No. 8, "Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra", "Opus clavisymphonicum" and "Opusculum clavisymphonicum") and his Piano Quintet No. 2, since this area of his output still remains heavily underexposed.


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## Guest

Sequentia said:


> Ogdon's and especially Madge's recordings of "Opus clavicembalisticum" are both inadequate


Ogdon's may not be 100% note-accurate, but my goodness, he certainly captures the spirit of it. Too bad he didn't record it 20 years earlier. I agree, though, that Madge's is a mess (both of them).


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## Lukecash12

> In any case, I look forward to future performances of Sorabji's last four works for piano and orchestra (Piano Concerto No. 8, "Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra", "Opus clavisymphonicum" and "Opusculum clavisymphonicum") and his Piano Quintet No. 2, since this area of his output still remains heavily underexposed.


I remember hearing a buzz about someone recording the Opus Archmagicum for Altarus Records, but nothing more. Has it finally been recorded?


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## Sequentia

Kontrapunctus said:


> Ogdon's may not be 100% note-accurate, but my goodness, he certainly captures the spirit of it. Too bad he didn't record it 20 years earlier. I agree, though, that Madge's is a mess (both of them).


I do not really share your view of Ogdon's performance, because Sorabji's music seems to "fall apart" when the tempo/volume changes are too abrupt. I also think the amount of wrong notes in his recording sometimes exceeds the limits of tolerability.


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## Sequentia

Lukecash12 said:


> I remember hearing a buzz about someone recording the Opus Archmagicum for Altarus Records, but nothing more. Has it finally been recorded?


Well, Tellef Johnson should be releasing it on his own anytime now, but nobody has any news on his project.

That being said, you can always try writing at the e-mail address [email protected].


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## Tapkaara

I really have to ask: what is the appeal of listening to 4 straight hours of sense dense music? I feel like the only reason the music is famous is because it's so outrageiously long.


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## Sid James

^^That's kind of what I think of a Wagner opera in full, but let's not go there. Sorabji I've not heard but I'd generally opt for him over Wagner, I'd rather listen to piano music than opera most days of the week, though lately I've been getting back into Rossini, but he's not as full on and heavy as Wagner, & overly long-winded, on steroids, etc...


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## Lukecash12

Tapkaara said:


> I really have to ask: what is the appeal of listening to 4 straight hours of sense dense music? I feel like the only reason the music is famous is because it's so outrageiously long.


Sorabji didn't need people to like his music, and he still doesn't today. What's more: He was quite the scholar, and that's more than I can say for most people who want to criticize him.


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## Tapkaara

Lukecash12 said:


> Sorabji didn't need people to like his music, and he still doesn't today. What's more: He was quite the scholar, and that's more than I can say for most people who want to criticize him.


You mean to tell me I am not a scholar, Lukecash. Is that REALLY what you're saying? 

All composers are open to criticism, even the ones you like. And the fact that he was a scholar is nice, but irrelevant.


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## Sid James

^^ This forum has had a "tradition" of people pulling down pieces that are longer than the standard length. Here it is Sorabji, last week it was with Havergal Brian & I remember people saying similar things about Morton Feldman's 5 hour long string quartet or something ages ago. But as I said, people avoid the elephant in the room here - WAGNER. Maybe it's because none of these other guys was a meglomaniac and had a opera house built as a monument to himself funded by a psychologically ill prince? Need I go on?...


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## Tapkaara

What's interesting to me is that people cannot acknowledge that 4 hours is a pretty long amount of time for a single piano piece. And people cannot acknowledge that writing a piece of such a length would make it hard to sit through in one go. Or maybe people can acknowledge it, but some won't. I dunno. To bring that up and question the motive for doing it is tantamount to blasphemy, I guess, especially when we take into account Sorabji was a scholar.

I happen not to like terribly long music. I'd not want to sit through a Wagner opera, nor would I want to listen to this for 4 straight hours.






Actually, it's not all that bad, maybe it could be listened to over the course of a few days at smaller intervals. At least it seems to retain a measure of tonality.

But my point is, there is nothing all that unique about the music (as skilfully written as it is), so it seems like a good plan to make it really, really unusually long, and that will make people remember it. I am no scholar, at least no Sorabji scholar, but I think it is quite fair to have this hunch as to why the piece is so damn long. If someone knows a specific and differing reason, I'm am ready to be enlightened.

My ultimate point is I feel the length of the piece is a gimmick and I generally don't go for gimmicks in music.


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## Sid James

^^ I don't think it's necessarily a gimmick. Composers sometimes write things for other composers to study. Take J.S. Bach's _Well Tempered Clavier_ for instance. I think it covers about 4 cd's, so about same length to this Sorabji work. Bach did not write this with performance in mind, and neither did Sorabji that piece, as far as I can tell. Music has different purposes, and yes some of it can lean towards the scholarly or other things, it's all diverse, I don't see a problem with that. & yes, as you say, it can be split up in terms of listening in chunks, many people do it with things like Bach's _WTC_, and I imagine Wagner's operas (that's what I've done myself, I listened to_ Tannhauser _over the period of 3 listenings over 3 consecutive weekends, it was a friend's CD, he's more of an opera fan, for me it was basically a one-off "curiosity" thing). As I said, different purposes, different strokes, different folks, etc...


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## Tapkaara

Sid James said:


> ^^ I don't think it's necessarily a gimmick. Composers sometimes write things for other composers to study. Take J.S. Bach's _Well Tempered Clavier_ for instance. I think it covers about 4 cd's, so about same length to this Sorabji work. Bach did not write this with performance in mind, and neither did Sorabji that piece, as far as I can tell. Music has different purposes, and yes some of it can lean towards the scholarly or other things, it's all diverse, I don't see a problem with that. & yes, as you say, it can be split up in terms of listening in chunks, many people do it with things like Bach's _WTC_, and I imagine Wagner's operas (that's what I've done myself, I listened to_ Tannhauser _over the period of 3 listenings over 3 consecutive weekends, it was a friend's CD, he's more of an opera fan, for me it was basically a one-off "curiosity" thing). As I said, different purposes, different strokes, different folks, etc...


Different strokes for different folks, certainly. If someone can and wants to sit through the Opus C in one go, certainly don't let this nobody in California stop you.

I do think it is a little gimmicky to write a single piano piece for such a long length. Now, a novel can be long, but those are meant to be digested chunks at a time. Most music works are written to be taken in one go. In fact, I don't think that most orchestral concerts ever get to be as long as four hours, despite featuring more than one work.

But if the Opus C's intention is to be more like the totality of the Well Tempered Clavier, than I will concede that its length is not an issue.

Again, I approach this work (as I do all music) from a highly personalized point of view. I have nothing personal against Sorabji or his fans. I just want to know his rationale for writing such a long work and, until I know that rationale, I'll have my silly little theory.

And 4 hours is just awfully long for any piece of music, piano or otherwise. But that's more my patience (or lack thereof) more than anything.


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## norman bates

Tapkaara said:


> I really have to ask: what is the appeal of listening to 4 straight hours of sense dense music? I feel like the only reason the music is famous is because it's so outrageiously long.


the lenght of many of his work is certainly discouraging, but i really like his use of harmony in the nocturnes (that are not so long). It's music that seems formless but with a strange intoxicant atmosphere that sounds like Debussy on acid.
Gulistan is a very good example.


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## Sequentia

Tapkaara said:


> I really have to ask: what is the appeal of listening to 4 straight hours of sense dense music? I feel like the only reason the music is famous is because it's so outrageiously _[sic]_ long.


The same as with a Wagner opera or Bach's _St. Matthew Passion_ - because the music offers the listener a unique experience.

Not all of Sorabji's pieces are extremely (120+ minutes) long. A complete list of his works (I hope I'm not forgetting anything) looks like this (please note that it is comprised of a combination of estimates and performances):

540:00 - _Symphonic Variations for Piano_
510:00 - Organ Symphony No. 2
430:00 - _Sequentia cyclica_
423:05 - _Études transcendantes (100)_
400:00 - Organ Symphony No. 3
360:00 - Piano Sonata No. 5 (_Opus archimagicum_)
320:00 - Piano Symphony No. 0
320:00 - _Messa grande sinfonica_
278:24 - _Jāmī_ Symphony
274:00 - Piano Symphony No. 4
270:00 - Piano Symphony No. 1
270:00 - Piano Symphony No. 2
252:11 - _Opus clavicembalisticum_
240:00 - Piano Quintet No. 2
240:00 - Piano Symphony No. 6
220:00 - _Variazioni e fuga triplice sopra "Dies irae"_
200:00 - _Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra_
160:00 - _Opusculum clavisymphonicum_
150:00 - Piano Toccata No. 4
139:26 - Piano Sonata No. 4
135:00 - Piano Symphony No. 3
130:00 - Piano Toccata No. 2
124:17 - Piano Symphony No. 5 (_Symphonia brevis_)
120:00 - _Symphonic Nocturne_
117:34 - Organ Symphony No. 1
100:00 - Symphony No. 1
100:00 - Piano Concerto No. 8
100:00 - _Opus clavisymphonicum_
87:00 - Piano Sonata No. 3
86:00 - _Il gallo d'oro_
74:55 - Piano Toccata No. 1
66:33 - _Concerto da suonare da me solo_
65:00 - _Frammenti aforistici (Sutras) (104)_
63:57 - _Fantasia ispanica_
55:00 - _Opus secretum_
54:26 - _Villa Tasca_
52:13 - Piano Sonata No. 2
45:00 - Passacaglia (unfinished)
36:46 - _Rosario d'arabeschi_
35:00 - Piano Concerto No. 6
35:00 - Piano Concerto No. 1
33:33 - _"Gulistān" - Nocturne for Piano_
31:36 - _Un nido di scatole_
29:00 - Piano Concerto No. 5
26:20 - Piano Quintet No. 1
25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 7
25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 2
25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 3
25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 4
24:38 - Piano Sonata No. 0
23:24 - _Nocturne, "Jāmī"_
22:56 - _Le jardin parfumé_
22:06 - Piano Sonata No. 1
21:54 - _Passeggiata veneziana sopra la Barcarola di Offenbach_
21:00 - _Concertino non grosso_
20:38 - _St. Bertrand de Comminges: "He was Laughing in the Tower"_
18:39 - _Quaere reliqua hujus materiei inter secretiora_
18:00 - _Rapsodie espagnole de Maurice Ravel: transcription de concert pour piano_ (first version)
17:58 - _Rapsodie espagnole de Maurice Ravel: transcription de concert pour piano_ (second version)
17:43 - _Il tessuto d'arabeschi_
17:00 - _Schluß-Szene aus "Salome" von Richard Strauss - Konzertmäßige Übertragung für Klavier zu zwei Händen_
17:00 - _Opusculum_
16:32 - _Fantaisie espagnole_
15:27 - _Passeggiata arlecchinesca sopra un frammento di Busoni_
15:27 - _Valse-fantaisie_
14:55 - _Transcription in the Light of Harpsichord Technique for the Modern Piano of the Chromatic Fantasia of J. S. Bach, Followed by a Fugue_
14:50 - _Trois poèmes du "Gulistān" de Saʿdī_
14:10 - Prelude, Interlude, and Fugue
13:15 - _Cinque sonetti di Michelagniolo Buonarroti_
11:30 - Movement for Voice and Piano
10:19 - _Frammenti aforistici (20)_
9:34 - _Two Piano Pieces_
9:20 - _Chaleur_
8:01 - _Toccatinetta sopra C.G.F._
7:43 - _Trois fêtes galantes de Verlaine_
7:05 - _Trois poèmes_
6:49 - _Trois poèmes pour chant et piano_
6:35 - _Music to "The Rider by Night"_
6:10 - _L'irrémédiable_
5:43 - _Pastiche on the Habanera from "Carmen" by Bizet_
4:59 - _Quasi habanera_
4:59 - _Hymne à Aphrodite_
4:41 - _Pastiche on the "Minute Waltz" by Chopin_
4:12 - _Pasticcio capriccioso sopra l'op. 64 no 1 del Chopin_
4:08 - _Pastiche on the Hindu Merchant's Song from "Sadko" by Rimsky-Korsakov_
3:05 - _Passeggiata variata sul nome del amico Clive Spencer-Bentley_
3:05 - _The Poplars_
3:01 - _Roses du soir_
3:01 - _Fantasiettina sul nome illustre dell'egregio poeta Christopher Grieve_
3:01 - _Chrysilla_
2:44 - _Fragment Written for Harold Rutland_
2:40 - _Apparition_
2:37 - _L'étang_
2:30 - _I Was Not Sorrowful - Poem for Voice and Piano [Spleen]_
2:21 - _Vocalise pour soprano fioriturata_
2:13 - _L'heure exquise_
2:00 - _Fragment: Prelude and Fugue on FxAxx DAxEx_
1:55 - _Suggested Bell-Chorale for St. Luke's Carillon_
1:48 - _Fantasiettina atematica_
1:40 - _Transcription of the Prelude in E-flat by Bach_
1:37 - _Arabesque_
1:20 - _Frammenti aforistici (4)_
1:15 - _Due sutras sul nome dell'amico Alexis_
1:00 - _Benedizione di San Francesco d'Assisi_
0:52 - _Variazione maliziosa e perversa sopra "La morte d'Åse" da Grieg_
0:44 - _Frammento cantato_
0:35 - _Le mauvais jardinier_
0:26 - _Désir éperdu - Fragment_

Some 140 hours, just in case you were planning to tot up the provided durations.


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## Sequentia

Tapkaara said:


> Actually, it's not all that bad, maybe it could be listened to over the course of a few days at smaller intervals.


G. D. Madge, who "recorded" the piece in question twice, discussed with Sorabji the possibility of performing separate movements. Sorabji allowed for stand-alone performances of the following movements:

Introito
Preludio corale
Fuga I
Fantasia
Interludium primum
Interludium alterum

That being said, the whole piece is motivically interconnected, so it should be heard in one sitting (with the odd interval placed here and there).


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## Sequentia

Sid James said:


> Bach did not write this with performance in mind, and neither did Sorabji that piece, as far as I can tell.


Sorabji definitely wanted it performed. He actually premièred the work.


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## Tapkaara

Sequentia said:


> The same as with a Wagner opera or Bach's _St. Matthew Passion_ - because the music offers the listener a unique experience.
> 
> Not all of Sorabji's pieces are extremely (120+ minutes) long. A complete list of his works (I hope I'm not forgetting anything) looks like this (please note that it is comprised of a combination of estimates and performances):
> 
> 540:00 - _Symphonic Variations for Piano_
> 510:00 - Organ Symphony No. 2
> 430:00 - _Sequentia cyclica_
> 423:05 - _Études transcendantes (100)_
> 400:00 - Organ Symphony No. 3
> 360:00 - Piano Sonata No. 5 (_Opus archimagicum_)
> 320:00 - Piano Symphony No. 0
> 320:00 - _Messa grande sinfonica_
> 278:24 - _Jāmī_ Symphony
> 274:00 - Piano Symphony No. 4
> 270:00 - Piano Symphony No. 1
> 270:00 - Piano Symphony No. 2
> 252:11 - _Opus clavicembalisticum_
> 240:00 - Piano Quintet No. 2
> 240:00 - Piano Symphony No. 6
> 220:00 - _Variazioni e fuga triplice sopra "Dies irae"_
> 200:00 - _Symphonic Variations for Piano and Orchestra_
> 160:00 - _Opusculum clavisymphonicum_
> 150:00 - Piano Toccata No. 4
> 139:26 - Piano Sonata No. 4
> 135:00 - Piano Symphony No. 3
> 130:00 - Piano Toccata No. 2
> 124:17 - Piano Symphony No. 5 (_Symphonia brevis_)
> 120:00 - _Symphonic Nocturne_
> 117:34 - Organ Symphony No. 1
> 100:00 - Symphony No. 1
> 100:00 - Piano Concerto No. 8
> 100:00 - _Opus clavisymphonicum_
> 87:00 - Piano Sonata No. 3
> 86:00 - _Il gallo d'oro_
> 74:55 - Piano Toccata No. 1
> 66:33 - _Concerto da suonare da me solo_
> 65:00 - _Frammenti aforistici (Sutras) (104)_
> 63:57 - _Fantasia ispanica_
> 55:00 - _Opus secretum_
> 54:26 - _Villa Tasca_
> 52:13 - Piano Sonata No. 2
> 45:00 - Passacaglia (unfinished)
> 36:46 - _Rosario d'arabeschi_
> 35:00 - Piano Concerto No. 6
> 35:00 - Piano Concerto No. 1
> 33:33 - _"Gulistān" - Nocturne for Piano_
> 31:36 - _Un nido di scatole_
> 29:00 - Piano Concerto No. 5
> 26:20 - Piano Quintet No. 1
> 25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 7
> 25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 2
> 25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 3
> 25:00 - Piano Concerto No. 4
> 24:38 - Piano Sonata No. 0
> 23:24 - _Nocturne, "Jāmī"_
> 22:56 - _Le jardin parfumé_
> 22:06 - Piano Sonata No. 1
> 21:54 - _Passeggiata veneziana sopra la Barcarola di Offenbach_
> 21:00 - _Concertino non grosso_
> 20:38 - _St. Bertrand de Comminges: "He was Laughing in the Tower"_
> 18:39 - _Quaere reliqua hujus materiei inter secretiora_
> 18:00 - _Rapsodie espagnole de Maurice Ravel: transcription de concert pour piano_ (first version)
> 17:58 - _Rapsodie espagnole de Maurice Ravel: transcription de concert pour piano_ (second version)
> 17:43 - _Il tessuto d'arabeschi_
> 17:00 - _Schluß-Szene aus "Salome" von Richard Strauss - Konzertmäßige Übertragung für Klavier zu zwei Händen_
> 17:00 - _Opusculum_
> 16:32 - _Fantaisie espagnole_
> 15:27 - _Passeggiata arlecchinesca sopra un frammento di Busoni_
> 15:27 - _Valse-fantaisie_
> 14:55 - _Transcription in the Light of Harpsichord Technique for the Modern Piano of the Chromatic Fantasia of J. S. Bach, Followed by a Fugue_
> 14:50 - _Trois poèmes du "Gulistān" de Saʿdī_
> 14:10 - Prelude, Interlude, and Fugue
> 13:15 - _Cinque sonetti di Michelagniolo Buonarroti_
> 11:30 - Movement for Voice and Piano
> 10:19 - _Frammenti aforistici (20)_
> 9:34 - _Two Piano Pieces_
> 9:20 - _Chaleur_
> 8:01 - _Toccatinetta sopra C.G.F._
> 7:43 - _Trois fêtes galantes de Verlaine_
> 7:05 - _Trois poèmes_
> 6:49 - _Trois poèmes pour chant et piano_
> 6:35 - _Music to "The Rider by Night"_
> 6:10 - _L'irrémédiable_
> 5:43 - _Pastiche on the Habanera from "Carmen" by Bizet_
> 4:59 - _Quasi habanera_
> 4:59 - _Hymne à Aphrodite_
> 4:41 - _Pastiche on the "Minute Waltz" by Chopin_
> 4:12 - _Pasticcio capriccioso sopra l'op. 64 no 1 del Chopin_
> 4:08 - _Pastiche on the Hindu Merchant's Song from "Sadko" by Rimsky-Korsakov_
> 3:05 - _Passeggiata variata sul nome del amico Clive Spencer-Bentley_
> 3:05 - _The Poplars_
> 3:01 - _Roses du soir_
> 3:01 - _Fantasiettina sul nome illustre dell'egregio poeta Christopher Grieve_
> 3:01 - _Chrysilla_
> 2:44 - _Fragment Written for Harold Rutland_
> 2:40 - _Apparition_
> 2:37 - _L'étang_
> 2:30 - _I Was Not Sorrowful - Poem for Voice and Piano [Spleen]_
> 2:21 - _Vocalise pour soprano fioriturata_
> 2:13 - _L'heure exquise_
> 2:00 - _Fragment: Prelude and Fugue on FxAxx DAxEx_
> 1:55 - _Suggested Bell-Chorale for St. Luke's Carillon_
> 1:48 - _Fantasiettina atematica_
> 1:40 - _Transcription of the Prelude in E-flat by Bach_
> 1:37 - _Arabesque_
> 1:20 - _Frammenti aforistici (4)_
> 1:15 - _Due sutras sul nome dell'amico Alexis_
> 1:00 - _Benedizione di San Francesco d'Assisi_
> 0:52 - _Variazione maliziosa e perversa sopra "La morte d'Åse" da Grieg_
> 0:44 - _Frammento cantato_
> 0:35 - _Le mauvais jardinier_
> 0:26 - _Désir éperdu - Fragment_
> 
> Some 140 hours, just in case you were planning to tot up the provided durations.


Touché!

All of this commentary has been enlightening and interesting about Sorabji. Thanks!

And yes, I can see how listening to a four-hour piano work would be a "unique experience." Never say never, maybe I'd be up for it some day.


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## Lukecash12

Tapkaara said:


> You mean to tell me I am not a scholar, Lukecash. Is that REALLY what you're saying?
> 
> All composers are open to criticism, even the ones you like. And the fact that he was a scholar is nice, but irrelevant.


I am simply saying that I give more credence to him than you, no offense. He was a brilliant and famous music critic, and you are another person who doesn't get his music. It's understandable, but that you don't see the point in a four hour piece of music doesn't really indicate anything about the piece, my friend.


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## Lukecash12

This interview gives us some valuable insights into Sorabji's rationale.


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## Tapkaara

Lukecash12 said:


> I am simply saying that I give more credence to him than you, no offense. He was a brilliant and famous music critic, and you are another person who doesn't get his music. It's understandable, but that you don't see the point in a four hour piece of music doesn't really indicate anything about the piece, my friend.


Ah, well the nice thing is that we can all give credence where we want and not give it when we do not want to. You are more than welcome to give the great Sorabji (the scholar, who was also famous) more credence than you would give me, just another Joe Schmoe who doesn't get it (and who is not famous). It doesn't ruin my day one bit.

I'll just crawl back into the toilet with the rest of the turds, now. And while I am in there, bobbing around and looking for the meaning of my crappy (literally) experience, I must remember that non-famous anti-scholars, such as myself, do not have and should not have the right to have a less-than-favorable opinion about famous, scholarly composers (who are also brilliant) because it may slightly **** off one of his fans...you know, one of those who "gets it."

But I have to remind myself, the occasional poor sport is the price of admission if I am to remain a member of this forum.


----------



## violadude

Tapkaara said:


> I really have to ask: what is the appeal of listening to 4 straight hours of sense dense music? I feel like the only reason the music is famous is because it's so outrageiously long.


Well....if you like the music why not listen to 4 hours of it? That's how I see it anyway.


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## Tapkaara

violadude said:


> Well....if you like the music why not listen to 4 hours of it? That's how I see it anyway.


I am sure I could only take it in chunks. God knows how many accumulated hours of good music I have in my collection...I wouldn;t dare try to take it all in in one go, no matter how much I like it!

It's really just a "different-strokes-for-different-folks" sort of thing, just as everything is in music. I wish more people could "get that."


----------



## Lukecash12

Tapkaara said:


> Ah, well the nice thing is that we can all give credence where we want and not give it when we do not want to. You are more than welcome to give the great Sorabji (the scholar, who was also famous) more credence than you would give me, just another Joe Schmoe who doesn't get it (and who is not famous). It doesn't ruin my day one bit.
> 
> I'll just crawl back into the toilet with the rest of the turds, now. And while I am in there, bobbing around and looking for the meaning of my crappy (literally) experience, I must remember that non-famous anti-scholars, such as myself, do not have and should not have the right to have a less-than-favorable opinion about famous, scholarly composers (who are also brilliant) because it may slightly **** off one of his fans...you know, one of those who "gets it."
> 
> But I have to remind myself, the occasional poor sport is the price of admission if I am to remain a member of this forum.


Right, because that is exactly what I meant... You should be an English teacher, hehe.


----------



## Lukecash12

Tapkaara said:


> I am sure I could only take it in chunks. God knows how many accumulated hours of good music I have in my collection...I wouldn;t dare try to take it all in in one go, no matter how much I like it!
> 
> It's really just a "different-strokes-for-different-folks" sort of thing, just as everything is in music. I wish more people could "get that."


Actually, that is just the most common philosophy on music, I would presume. The rest of us are elitist pigs, I guess


----------



## Lukecash12

Sequentia said:


> Well, Tellef Johnson should be releasing it on his own anytime now, but nobody has any news on his project.
> 
> That being said, you can always try writing at the e-mail address [email protected].


Here's the news, everyone:



> Hi Luke,
> 
> Thanks for your note. We should be announcing the final stage of the project shortly, due to a lot of interest from people over the last year. We have added your email to the mailing list where any news or information will be sent to first.
> 
> But in the meantime, here's an intense high-definition video of Tellef playing 15 minutes from Opus Archimagicum to whet your appetite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Password: sorabjisoiree60
> 
> All best,
> THE TEAM AT WWW.OPUSARCHIMAGICUM.COM





> Tellef Johnson inaugurates his proposed "Sorabji Soiree" series of live streaming piano performances of music by legendary Parsi-English composer Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji (1892-1988) with this fifteen-minute sampler/teaser (in high-definition video) of Sorabji's PIANO SONATA V: OPUS ARCHIMAGICUM (1934-35).
> 
> OPUS ARCHIMAGICUM may be Sorabji's unheard masterpiece, for nowhere else in the composer's output can one find such a consistent and proportionate balance of form, contrast and variety within such a large-scale composition. The work's use of various mottos based on Bach, occultist Bernard Bromage, and the infamous Dies Irae plainchant (a theme that would interest Sorabji for decades and was prominently used in several of his works) help sew together a vast epic in three massive parts defined by a curiously unique and programmatic occult game plan: the Tarot and its Major and Minor Arcana, as well as the Grand High Sorcerer himself: the Arch-Mage. If there ever was a musical equivalent of Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, this piano behemoth may come close.
> 
> Housed in ten movements totaling six hours in duration, the sonata's large-scale symmetrical designs accommodate homages to Prokofiev, Ravel, Alkan, Godowsky, and Busoni while incorporating a mind-blowingly absurd virtuosity all Sorabji's own that predates the work of Art Tatum, Cecil Taylor, and Jerry Lee Lewis.
> 
> Tellef Johnson directs himself in a high-definition video film of his live, "work-in-progress" performance on a Fazioli F-308 grand piano, June 3, 2010.


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## Dodecaplex

^ Amazing!


----------



## Tapkaara

Lukecash12 said:


> Actually, that is just the most common philosophy on music, I would presume. The rest of us are elitist pigs, I guess


I do not know if it is the most common philosophy, but it should be. I think just about anyone in this forum has enough taste, refinement and knowledge of art music to know what they like and what they don't. The fact that we all don't like the same things or share similar philosophies all the time on every point is not a coincidence. It's natural. So, I have never understood the need to fight against the inevitable...that we all have good taste, but different taste, ultimately.

Anyway...

I am not an English teacher, but a French teacher. I still suck compared to Sorabji, though.


----------



## Lukecash12

Tapkaara said:


> I do not know if it is the most common philosophy, but it should be. I think just about anyone in this forum has enough taste, refinement and knowledge of art music to know what they like and what they don't. The fact that we all don't like the same things or share similar philosophies all the time on every point is not a coincidence. It's natural. So, I have never understood the need to fight against the inevitable...that we all have good taste, but different taste, ultimately.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> I am not an English teacher, but a French teacher. I still suck compared to Sorabji, though.


Well, therein lies the philosophical debate. Must we strictly regard music as having only a subjective aesthetic value, or is it just as tenable to see objective value (inasmuch as humanitarian value is objective) in it? Music and it's development has been informed by history, sociology, psychology, tradition, and religion, after all.

If you follow in the dichotomy that I follow, it's fairly reasonable to posit that some music has a negative impact, and some music has a positive impact. However, the waters get muddied quite a bit, because the question of positive and negative in reference to me or whoever else is begged: Am I a fatalist, naturalist, theist, Marxist, nihhilist, etc.?


----------



## Guest

I emailed Tellef Johnson last year/18 months ago--he said an update would be forthcoming, but nothing appeared. So, I wrote him again several months later but never got a response. *sigh


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## Lukecash12

Kontrapunctus said:


> I emailed Tellef Johnson last year/18 months ago--he said an update would be forthcoming, but nothing appeared. So, I wrote him again several months later but never got a response. *sigh


I don't think they even have a copy for Mr. Johnson of the whole piece yet, so I would guess that he's just practicing what he has right now. According to the Sorabji Archives, it's been difficult coming up with readable copies of Sorabji's music; I would assume that Sorabji's didn't have copiers and editors of his own.


----------



## Sequentia

No news on _Opus archimagicum_ yet, but in the meantime, two videos of Tellef Johnson playing Sorabji have made it to YouTube:


----------



## PetrB

I've found the few pieces from various works of his I've heard just puerile in that sort of British pubic school boy way, i.e. a real ability coupled with a good I.Q. but an uttery sophomoric use of it... Peter Greenaway comes to mind, as does Michael Nyman in this little bailiwick of a certain 'quality.' I don't know which is more of a complete turn-off, that style of academicism, or the more 'adult' but petty academic mentality.

This music is a very very 'dated' period sounding synthetic harmony, as less-than-fresh and synthetic as some Hindemith, and yes he knew his species counterpoint and all the rest. It is not the length, nor the technical difficulty which impresses but the lack of, to me, any musical interest or real musicality that puts me completely off. 

There is a sort of fan of music who will always be impressed with either pyrotechnics or humongous 'epic' scale, but who seems also to lack any discernment of the quality of the music itself; some are that gobsmacked with the pyrotechnical aspect and scale of the project alone (sports mentality.) 

It could be, too, a very parochial-nationalist taste. While some British composers are well-liked outside of England, some are home boys mainly appreciated by the natives and only a smattering of outlanders. The home-boy angle plays in all nations, but this seems more pronounced to me when it comes to the Brits.

Taken in the proportion some of the works are, and finding them boring or so uninteresting they become boring, they are then monumentally boring. Though that is too subjective to qualify, the 'monumentally boring' could sit aside its other qualities which put it in the Guinness Book of Records.

I gather by now most everyone knows I think it is dreadfully awful music


----------



## Dodecaplex

^ What with you knowing so much about this "quality" thing, you must be either Apollo or some other god whose sense of "quality" is far above that of us mortals.


----------



## PetrB

Lukecash12 said:


> Sorabji didn't need people to like his music, and he still doesn't today. What's more: He was quite the scholar, and that's more than I can say for most people who want to criticize him.


New to forums such as this, while acquainted to actual discussion amongst very experienced and SCHOLARLY high-caliber musicians, including composers, this is the first time I have ever heard of the need to support an argument in defense of a work by shoring it up with the composer's credentials - at all, whether it be the composer's ability to write about music, their collection of wax-sealed hand inked parchments, additional degrees in musicology, performance, awards, grants, etc.

The work, especially if its shelf-life outlives its author, must stand on its own two feet, without all the accoutrements or props of officialdom, including academic degrees, or formal analysis as defense. Otherwise, it might just be one of those body of works best left on paper, as about as interesting and with as much relative worth as an epic-scale collection of crossword puzzles, which though perhaps intriguing and fun, everyone knows are not profound literature.

Does anyone bring up the training or writings of Wagner, Debussy, Morton Feldman, Beat Furrer, or any other worthwhile composer in a discussion of the merit of the work in defense of the work itself?

Very weak support, that. Nastily oily and condescending as well -- but of course, that is just an opinion from one guy.


----------



## PetrB

Dodecaplex said:


> ^ What with you knowing so much about this "quality" thing, you must be either Apollo or some other god whose sense of "quality" is far above that of us mortals.


One guy's taste - Just Like All Entries In This Thread (and every entry in this entire forum.) ... that includes your opinion(s), just in case you were thinking you are a special case... which I am certain you do not.

You know any Gods or Demigods, I'd like to meet'em.


----------



## Sequentia

PetrB said:


> Michael Nyman [comes to mind]


One of the all-too-common logical fallacies used by Internet provocateurs. Does Nyman use chords at the distance of the tritone or the semitone? Non-functional harmony? Dense counterpoint? Does he regulate dissonances in the same ways? Does he use bitonality? "Meta-scales"?



PetrB said:


> I don't know which is more of a complete turn-off, that style of academicism, or the more 'adult' but petty academic mentality.


Useless play with words. Your post has no meaning.



PetrB said:


> This music is a very very 'dated' period sounding synthetic harmony, as less-than-fresh and synthetic as some Hindemith


To you; certainly not to many other listeners. Your comment is clueless, seeing how much Sorabji disliked Hindemith.



PetrB said:


> It is not the length, nor the technical difficulty which impresses but the lack of, to me, any musical interest or real musicality that puts me completely off.


Could you please tell us what you mean by "musical interest" and "real musicality"?



PetrB said:


> There is a sort of fan of music who will always be impressed with either pyrotechnics or humongous 'epic' scale


Most of Sorabji's works can fit into a standard-length concert.

Speaking of pyrotechnics, your comment is demonstrably false. You clearly know nothing about his music.

"In the music that I choose to play [Sorabji's Fourth Symphony for Piano Alone] I am not attracted primarily by the challenge posed by its scale and complexity, but the feeling to get absorbed into a personal universe of sound." --Reinier van Houdt (http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/articles/vanhoudt_vanpeer_1.php)



PetrB said:


> [Fans of Sorabji seem] to lack any discernment of the quality of the music itself


I'm sure the musicologists who have written in detail about his music would be delighted to read this.



PetrB said:


> It could be, too, a very parochial-nationalist taste. While some British composers are well-liked outside of England, some are home boys mainly appreciated by the natives and only a smattering of outlanders.


The data found at http://www4.clustrmaps.com/counter/maps.php?url=http://sorabji-files.com show that Sorabji has a wider audience in the U.S. and Japan, as well as a substantial one in Germany and Italy. Champions of Sorabji have diverse nationalities: Canada (Marc-André Roberge, Paul Rapoport), the U.S. (Donna Amato, Tellef Johnson), France (François Fabre), Germany (Vasilios Tsokis), the Netherlands (Reinier van Houdt, Egon Petri, Lukas Huisman), Sweden (Fredrik Ullén), Australia (Geoffrey Douglas Madge), Italy (Carlo Grante) - and that's just a short list. Some of them have lived in various countries (but not the UK), such as Michael Habermann and the author of this post.

Once again, you are proven wrong.



PetrB said:


> Taken in the proportion some of the works are, and finding them boring or so uninteresting they become boring, they are then monumentally boring.


English, please?



PetrB said:


> Though that is too subjective to qualify, the 'monumentally boring' could sit aside its other qualities which put it in the Guinness Book of Records.


Unfortunately for you, most of humanity finds classical music boring.


----------



## Sequentia

PetrB said:


> The work . . . must stand on its own two feet, without . . . formal analysis as defense.


Musical analysis determines musical quality. Otherwise, all you are left with are

a) Marxist analyses of a work's political background
b) "popularity is quality" arguments



PetrB said:


> [Crossword puzzles] are not profound literature.


Faulty analogy.



PetrB said:


> Nastily oily and condescending as well -- but of course, that is just an opinion from one guy.


Let's not get into some pretentious you "are nasty" posts, given that you have accused fans of Sorabji of being blind in terms of analysis of musical quality, adhering to a sports mentality, being primarily British fanboys, and being fascinated solely by the technical demands Sorabji's works make on performers, shall we? So far, you are the one who has decided to specialise in defamation.


----------



## Guest

I love his music! About 8 years ago, I flew from CA to NY to hear Jonathan Powell play Opus Clavicumbalisticum. Since I have a terrible fear of flying (crashing, actually...), it took a lot of courage for me to do that, but it was worth it. Hearing that piece in concert was just incredible. I got to talk to Jonathan before the concert--he too hates to fly!


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## PetrB

Sequentia said:


> ...Does Nyman use chords at the distance of the tritone or the semitone? Non-functional harmony? Dense counterpoint? Does he regulate dissonances in the same ways? Does he use bitonality? "Meta-scales"?...


You and I will be forever at cross purposes.

I believe the above laundry list of technical devices is no measure of any music's ultimate worth. In another post you said theory offered the only set of criteria with which the worth of a work can be evaluated at all.

The fact that once through undergraduate theory and working with a composition teacher, and later done with all school and working with a composer-mentor, theory is rarely ever mentioned or academically directly applied to a work in progress or a completed work seems to be outside the realm of your experience. Composers, too, when working with musicians rarely resort to the basic terms of theory in discussing 'how the music should go.'

I sense too a less than subtle attempt to prick out of me whether I know that vocabulary and what it is all about, or that you may hold an odd notion that by listing those terms it is somehow meant to show as an impressive display of your musical literacy (read superiority), and that others should then cower and be impressed. I assure you I do know all that theory -- not know of, but know -- and putting forth that laundry list of terminology as a question / challenge is no more significant than asking a trained and well-practiced painter about color theory while avoiding asking of them what they know or think of art.

It is a mere laundry list of technical devices, not any sort of worthwhile measure of music.

The fact Nyman does or does not use them or manipulate them in a particular manner does nothing in an argument for or against the worth of his music. Please do not pull out the tired and irrelevant factoid that Nyman is a respected musicologist, critic and SCHOLAR. That and the fare gets Mr. Nyman -- and his music -- on the the bus. Ditto Sorabji, and all other composers.

If I look at and listen to several pieces from one composer, including those from several stages of the composer's life, and there is nothing in the way of surprise after looking at and hearing them all, then -- personally -- if I find it transparently and flamingly schoolboy obvious, devoid of what I perceive as having some subtlety, which I do -- then to me it less interesting than wallpaper.

You seem to think talk of hammer and nails is enough to qualify one to judge the worth of the edifice the tools built.

You might be unaware that some 'champions' of performing Sorabji do not think as highly of it as much as they are more like world-class mountaineers who having stumbled upon what they see as a newly discovered Mt. Everest or K2 and then are compelled to meet the challenge of successfully climbing it. "Why? Because it is there." i.e. it is an adventurous sports challenge. They talk it up, of course, because the publicity generates interest: they would rather get paid to do it than not. Their enthusiasm is genuine but is often as much or more about climbing Everest or K2 vs. any aesthetic evaluation of those mountains, and that is just an unvarnished truth of 'the performing arts biz.'

Similarly, at least half the audience for such performances are there to watch a feat of prowess: the music could be anything, and if touted as impossibly difficult to perform, the fans of the Olympic piano circus tight-rope walker performer will be there to watch the show, not caring much what they are listening to or the quality of the musicianship as long as the circus pianist tightrope walker hits 99% of the correct notes in the right order at tempo, they will be wowed and feel they got their money's worth. In not knowing that about the general concert-going public, I think you are patently naive.

Its just talk on music here: you have made a truckload of arguments for, including criteria you seem to think enough to qualify something as profoundly great; whereas I believe a list of technical feats done in a comp barely scratches the surface of the measure of its total 'worth.'

You seem to be one who just will not brook another opinion, as if in an open to all forum you are expecting the reflexive respect a professor is due from a student within that codified social structure, even if the professor is not always 'right.'

Here, school is out.


----------



## Sequentia

A fairly delayed reply, but anyway:



PetrB said:


> You and I will be forever at cross purposes.


On this subject, perhaps; I'm sure we both enjoy composers X, Y, Z, etc.



PetrB said:


> I believe the above laundry list of technical devices is no measure of any music's ultimate worth. In another post you said theory offered the only set of criteria with which the worth of a work can be evaluated at all.
> 
> The fact that once through undergraduate theory and working with a composition teacher, and later done with all school and working with a composer-mentor, theory is rarely ever mentioned or academically directly applied to a work in progress or a completed work seems to be outside the realm of your experience. Composers, too, when working with musicians rarely resort to the basic terms of theory in discussing 'how the music should go.'
> 
> I sense too a less than subtle attempt to prick out of me whether I know that vocabulary and what it is all about, or that you may hold an odd notion that by listing those terms it is somehow meant to show as an impressive display of your musical literacy (read superiority), and that others should then cower and be impressed. I assure you I do know all that theory -- not know of, but know -- and putting forth that laundry list of terminology as a question / challenge is no more significant than asking a trained and well-practiced painter about color theory while avoiding asking of them what they know or think of art.
> 
> It is a mere laundry list of technical devices, not any sort of worthwhile measure of music.
> 
> The fact Nyman does or does not use them or manipulate them in a particular manner does nothing in an argument for or against the worth of his music. Please do not pull out the tired and irrelevant factoid that Nyman is a respected musicologist, critic and SCHOLAR. That and the fare gets Mr. Nyman -- and his music -- on the the bus. Ditto Sorabji, and all other composers.


I'm not sure if I expressed myself incorrectly (English is not my first language), but I was arguing against the view that Nyman is similar to Sorabji - I was not saying that the use of a(ny) given compositional device(s) in a piece makes the piece in question great; that can't be the case, since I was talking about *stylistic traits*.



PetrB said:


> If I look at and listen to several pieces from one composer, including those from several stages of the composer's life, and there is nothing in the way of surprise after looking at and hearing them all, then -- personally -- if I find it transparently and flamingly schoolboy obvious, devoid of what I perceive as having some subtlety, which I do -- then to me it less interesting than wallpaper.


It's called "predictability".



PetrB said:


> some 'champions' of performing Sorabji


Names?



PetrB said:


> You might be unaware that some 'champions' of performing Sorabji do not think as highly of it as much as they are more like world-class mountaineers who having stumbled upon what they see as a newly discovered Mt. Everest or K2 and then are compelled to meet the challenge of successfully climbing it. "Why? Because it is there." i.e. it is an adventurous sports challenge. They talk it up, of course, because the publicity generates interest: they would rather get paid to do it than not. Their enthusiasm is genuine but is often as much or more about climbing Everest or K2 vs. any aesthetic evaluation of those mountains, and that is just an unvarnished truth of 'the performing arts biz.'


If that's the case, then how do you explain the fact that various Sorabji champions are *not* tackling works by Finnissy, Godowsky, Alkan, and various other technically highly demanding composers? If they care so much about the challenge and the "epicness", why has none of them (as far as I know) committed Rzewski's 10-hour _The Road_ into their repertoire?



PetrB said:


> Similarly, at least half the audience for such performances are there to watch a feat of prowess: the music could be anything, and if touted as impossibly difficult to perform, the fans of the Olympic piano circus tight-rope walker performer will be there to watch the show, not caring much what they are listening to or the quality of the musicianship as long as the circus pianist tightrope walker hits 99% of the correct notes in the right order at tempo, they will be wowed and feel they got their money's worth. In not knowing that about the general concert-going public, I think you are patently naive.


Some listeners are indeed like that, but that says nothing about Sorabji's music.


----------



## ribonucleic

> Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji (born Leon Dudley Sorabji; 14 August 1892 - 15 October 1988) was an English composer, music critic, pianist and writer. He was one of the 20th century's most prolific piano composers.
> 
> As a composer and pianist, Sorabji was largely self-taught, and he distanced himself from the main currents of contemporary musical life early in his career. He developed a highly idiosyncratic musical language, with roots in composers as diverse as Busoni, Debussy and Szymanowski, and he dismissed large portions of the established and contemporary repertoire.
> 
> A reluctant performer, Sorabji played a few of his works in public between 1920 and 1936, thereafter "banning" performances of his music until 1976. Since very few of his compositions were published during those years, he remained in public view mainly by writing essays and music criticism, at the centre of which are his books Around Music and Mi contra fa: The Immoralisings of a Machiavellian Musician. He had a tendency to seclusion, and in the 1950s he moved from London to the village of Corfe Castle, Dorset, where he spent most of the rest of his life quietly.
> 
> Sorabji's music is characterised by frequent use of polyrhythms, complex juxtaposition of tonal and atonal elements, and copious ornamentation. Many of his works contain sections employing strongly contrasting approaches to musical architecture; some of them use baroque forms, while others are athematic. His musical output consists of over 100 compositions, ranging from aphoristic pieces to works spanning several hours. Most are for piano solo or feature an important piano part, but he also composed for orchestra, chamber ensembles, organ and other instruments. Partly because of this, Sorabji has been described as a descendant of a tradition of composer-pianists such as Frédéric Chopin, Franz Liszt and Charles-Valentin Alkan. - Wikipedia


Sorabji is best known for his 4-hour _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ - whose difficulties for the performer can be hinted at with this page from the score:










There are two complete recordings. By universal consensus, only the one by John Ogdon is worth consideration. Physical copies are prohibitively priced.

However, it is not necessary or even recommended for the beginner to start there.

Fredrik Ullén is 3/4 of the way through an acclaimed cycle of the 100 Transcendental Studies - which presents more digestible portions of the composer's extraordinarily dense music.

The Piano Sonata No. 1 has been fortunate to be recorded by the pianist better equipped than any other to cope with its difficulties - super-virtuoso Marc-André Hamelin.

And my personal recommendation would be the fantastical _Le Jardin Parfumé_ - where the Yonty Solomon recording surpasses that of Michael Habermann.

If nothing but full-scale Sorabji will suit you, the Piano Symphony No. 6 - a work from the composer's 87th year - can be streamed from Dutch radio here in a world-premiere performance by the world's leading Sorabji specialist, Jonathan Powell.

Here is a clip of his playing the 5th movement, _Arabesque nocturne_.


----------



## PetrB

_Pity_ the composer lifted that ban....


----------



## joen_cph

It´s mainly the _larger than life_ aspect of his works that has limited their popularity, IMO - there isn´t really a canon of varied performances to lean to, in order to study the works and the possible nuances or content in depth, and it is still going to take a couple of decades, before we have enough material to compare between. A playing-through isn´t enough. Likewise, a lot of the works featuring an orchestra haven´t been recorded.

The ambitious BIS series are promising, and I have no doubt that for example the *100 Transcendental Etudes * form an absolute masterpiece.


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## Headphone Hermit

By coincidence, today I picked up a copy of his _Gulistan_ performed by Charles Hopkins. I haven't heard it yet and had never heard of him at all, but thought 99p was worth a punt. The biography above (and the website at http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/ ) suggest that this may be an interesting exploration - I'll let you know!


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## Cosmos

I'm not sure how I feel about him. I do remember listening to his first piano sonata, which was very good. It was kind of like Ravel, i think, only to the nth degree. It's also one of his more "conservative" works

Sadly the Sorabji Archives took down a lot of his music that was up on youtube. Shame, I can't really find any of his music to stream


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## Guest

ribonucleic said:


> Sorabji is best known for his 4-hour _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ - whose difficulties for the performer can be hinted at with this page from the score:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are two complete recordings. By universal consensus, only the one by John Ogdon is worth consideration. Physical copies are prohibitively priced.


Ogdon's is definitely the one to have. Geoffry Douglas Madge's is terrible. I saw Jonathan Powell play it in NY about 10 years ago--it was amazing. Not as demonic as Ogdon's, but it might have elucidated some the textures more accurately. One hopes Powell will record it as well as the Sequentia Dies Irae and that 6th Symphony.


----------



## Sequentia

PetrB said:


> _Pity_ the composer lifted that ban....


The real "pity" is that all _wannabe_ Sorabji "critics" are unable to present any meaningful, erudite critique of Sorabji's output based on listening to quality recordings of his work and a knowledge of his scores and the musicological research on his compositions. How's that?


----------



## Fagotterdammerung

I love Sorabji. Like Messiaen, he seems to compose with an entirely different sense of scale and duration, and it can be a little off-putting. I listen to Sorabji differently than many: I'm not listening to each note in the melodic line, or each chord as it passes, but standing back a bit and experiencing the undulating "whole" of the music.


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## DeepR

I listened to a few of his Transcendental Etudes some time ago, one of them sounded a bit like a warped, mindf*** version of Chopin Op. 10 no. 1. I liked it very much. Seemed excruciatingly difficult. I don't remember which number it is I'm afraid.


----------



## Fagotterdammerung

My favorite of the works I've listened to is his _Gulistan_ Nocturne. There's a recording of the composer himself playing it out there on Youtube.


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## MoonlightSonata

Ah, Sorabji. Very interesting, but a bit scary.


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## Guest

I listened to his first organ symphony recently. Fairly nice.


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## Guest

I've just bought Transcendental Studies for Piano; 1-25 (of 100).

It's a ceaseless churning, collection to bathe in. 

Only just putting a toe in the water here, but I'm thinking there may well be further purchases. 

The pianist is Fredrik Ullen (who I see I also have, performing Ligeti's Etudes).


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## Albert7

Cool, this is another dude that I need to check out whenever I get a chance after March.


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## MoonlightSonata

albertfallickwang said:


> Cool, this is another dude that I need to check out whenever I get a chance after March.


You should hear Skilmarillion's eulogies of Sorabji - he (she?) can't get enough! :devil:


----------



## Guest

MoonlightSonata said:


> You should hear Skilmarillion's eulogies of Sorabji - he (she?) can't get enough! :devil:


Really? Cool!
Or do I suspect taking the wet??!


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## Guest

Oh my...here is a live recording by Jonathan Powell of Sorabji's nearly 7 hour Sequentia Cyclica Dies Irae. If you have Internet Download Manager or some similar sort of program, you can download it and listen to it at your leisure, or presumably, burn it to a DVD.

http://www.concertzender.nl/programmagids/?date=2013-05-07&month=-18&detail=63373

It begins with some orchestral theme music from the program, a spoken intro in Dutch, then the piece, which has apparently been trimmed a bit for timing purposes.


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## Guest

It's just a shame that of all the sorabji works here and there that have been recorded (sonatas, symphonies, nocturnes, etc)... I'm pretty sure we have none of his big orchestral works or concertante works. At least we have that little oddity of the first organ symphony!


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## Skilmarilion

MoonlightSonata said:


> You should hear Skilmarillion's eulogies of Sorabji - *he* (she?) can't get enough!


He!

I guess I must mention that all those posts were made jokingly, of course.

I have heard some of Sorabji's piano music, finding it interesting, albeit I haven't been blown away yet.

As you may have guessed, I do find his name to be absolutely epic. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Skilmarilion said:


> I do find his name to be absolutely epic. :tiphat:


I may have to change my name by deed poll! (AAAAGGHGHGHGHHGHGH!!!!!!! POLL!!! POLL!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO)


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## Sequentia

Volume 4 of Ullén's traversal of Sorabji's études has just been released by BIS. You can find some basic information about the recording at http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-1853. The album can obviously be ordered at a number of online shops.


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## Guest

Sequentia said:


> Volume 4 of Ullén's traversal of Sorabji's études has just been released by BIS. You can find some basic information about the recording at http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-1853. The album can obviously be ordered at a number of online shops.


Cool! Thanks for the update. Seemed like all the ongoing Sorabji projects were at a halt. I'm also referring to Kevin Bowyer's project, which was, once upon a time, projected to have released a commercial recording of Sorabji's 2nd Organ Symphony by now. Note: This would've been the longest Sorabji work recorded, to date.


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## Guest

Sequentia said:


> Volume 4 of Ullén's traversal of Sorabji's études has just been released by BIS. You can find some basic information about the recording at http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-1853. The album can obviously be ordered at a number of online shops.


Thank you so much. I just "pre-ordered" it from MDT.


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## Guest

I received the 4th volume a few weeks ago--it's great. Overall, though, that grouping (No.63-71) is a bit more sedate than some of the others.

I just came across this!


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## Lukecash12

Damn, looking back at this thread I can't believe how snarky and condescending I came off. Probably just irritable about Sorabji's music being called a gimmick yet again, but clearly that wasn't warranted.

Let's chill out with this wonderful fugue:


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## Birdsong88

Sorabji is a composer I have recently added to my listening repertoire. I started with listening to volume one of his 100 Transcendental Etudes. Now onto volumes 2-4 and then his opus. Yes he may be known for composing tremendously difficult long works, so that may deter some or intrigue some. Just with all music you will either like it or not. I happen to like it.


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## Guest

Birdsong88 said:


> Sorabji is a composer I have recently added to my listening repertoire. I started with listening to volume one of his 100 Transcendental Etudes. Now onto volumes 2-4 and then his opus. Yes he may be known for composing tremendously difficult long works, so that may deter some or intrigue some. Just with all music you will either like it or not. I happen to like it.


Me too! I've got vol 1 - Ullen?


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## Birdsong88

Ullen? Yes! I plan to listen to more of his recordings.


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## Sequentia

2016 is shaping up to be a great year as regards performances and recordings of Sorabji's work. Carlo Grante will record and perhaps also perform _Opus secretum_, volume 5 of Ullén's cycle will be released, Jonathan Powell's recording of _Sequentia cyclica_ (on Toccata Classics) may come out, and the Toccata Seconda might receive its first public performance since Sorabji premiered it in 1936, 80 years ago. Pretty good, assuming all works out!


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## Guest

I'm most excited to hear _Sequentia cyclia_. I almost went to Seattle to attend his performance of it, but the timing was bad.


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## Sequentia

Volume 5 of the études is now advertised on BIS's website:

http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2223

You can hear samples from the recording at https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...endental-studies-vol-5-nrn-72-83/hnum/1922203.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Sequentia said:


> Volume 5 of the études is now advertised on BIS's website


Thanks for the tip-off! I was stuck on Volumes 1-4 without realising #5 had been released.


----------



## Guest

Fredrik Ullen deserves some sort of medal.


----------



## Xenakiboy

I want to see Symphony no 3 (Jami) performed dammit, *is it too much to ask?*


----------



## Xenakiboy

I love all the music I've heard from Sorabji, it's a shame there hasn't been enough funding to get some of his more ambitious works performed


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## Guest

Sequentia said:


> Volume 5 of the études is now advertised on BIS's website:
> 
> http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-2223
> 
> You can hear samples from the recording at https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/de...endental-studies-vol-5-nrn-72-83/hnum/1922203.


I received it a few weeks ago--wonderful as usual! One of the Etudes is nearly 29 minutes long! It's too bad that BIS didn't record it as an SACD, but it still sounds very good. (BIS is incapable of poor sound in my experience.)


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## Sequentia

Not to forget, Lukas Huisman's recording of the _Symphonic Nocturne_ is coming out soon:

https://www.amazon.de/Symphonic-Nocturne-Lukas-Huisman/dp/B01K8VR8RS


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## Guest

Sequentia said:


> Not to forget, Lukas Huisman's recording of the _Symphonic Nocturne_ is coming out soon:
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/Symphonic-Nocturne-Lukas-Huisman/dp/B01K8VR8RS


Yep, and Jonathan Powell has finished recording the _Sequentia Cyclia_ (all 7 hours of it...) for Toccata CDs. It's in the editing stage now.


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## ahinton

Cosmos said:


> I'm not sure how I feel about him. I do remember listening to his first piano sonata, which was very good. It was kind of like Ravel, i think, only to the nth degree. It's also one of his more "conservative" works
> 
> Sadly the Sorabji Archives took down a lot of his music that was up on youtube. Shame, I can't really find any of his music to stream


This was because those who uploaded them did not bother to seek prior permission of the artists, the broadcasting stations / record companies (where applicable) or the archive itself; the archive is more than happy for extracts to be uploaded to YouTube on a basis equivalent to "fair use" but does not wish to risk compromising sales of recordings in which record companies and the artists concerned have invested vast amounts of time, money and energy. Indeed, the very point of setting up the archive was to make this vast corpus of music available and to ensure that it did not disappear altogether.


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## ahinton

DeepR said:


> I listened to a few of his Transcendental Etudes some time ago, one of them sounded a bit like a warped, mindf*** version of Chopin Op. 10 no. 1. I liked it very much. Seemed excruciatingly difficult. I don't remember which number it is I'm afraid.


Curiously, I'm almost certain that the one to which you refer here is actually No. 10! - hence its nickname in some circles, "Op. 1 no. 10"...


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## ahinton

dogen said:


> Fredrik Ullen deserves some sort of medal.


He does - but then Jonathan Powell arguably deserves a whole box full of them, not least because, in addition to his excellent Sorabji score editions, he has committed some 30 hours' worth of the composer's music to his repertoire!


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## ahinton

On the Sorabji Archive discussion forum, accessible via the Sorabji Archive website (details below), a thread has recently been opened about "favourite Sorabji works".

What's so good about this topic is that, over the years, it has actually become increasingly possible for people to choose their "favourite Sorabji works". Publications of his scores had ceased in 1931; public performances ended five years later and his work then fell almost silent for almost four decades. Performances began again in the 1970s thanks to the pioneering work of Yonty Solomon and Michael Habermann, but even by 1980 there were still no commercial recordings and very few scores were available.

Since then, there have been many hundreds of performances and/or broadcasts by dozens of performers in at least 25 countries, there are at least 40 recordings of or including his work (of which almost all remain available today) and all his known scores and literary writings have become available both on paper and in .pdf format, many in splendid typeset editions. Long may this continue and long may ever greater numbers of listeners be given more and more opportunities to decide for themselves which are their "favourite Sorabji works"!

The future does indeed bode well for new recordings. Now that Lukas Huisman's 2-CD set of Symphonic Nocturne is out, Jonathan Powell has in the offing not only the monumental _Sequentia Cyclica_ but also a single CD of much shorter works including some recorded premières. The final two CDs of Fredrik Ullén's traversal of the 100 Transcendental Studies should be out within a year or so and there are also the possibilities not only of Carlo Grante playing _Opus Secretum_ but also of the world première of Piano Symphony No. 4 as given by Reinier van Houdt in Utrecht in 2003.

With around two-thirds of Sorabji's scores having been edited (with more editions in progress) and about the same proportion of his works having been performed, broadcast or recorded, the fate of his œuvre is now well and truly assured, although there remains much still to be discovered in terms of editing and performances.

A much needed new edition of what arguably remains his best known work, _Opus Clavicembalisticum_, is in preparation and is anticipated to become available in a few months' time; this is being made by a team of editors including Jonathan Powell who plans to tour it in Europe from next spring (dates are currently being arranged).

Kevin Bowyer, who has made critical editions of all three organ symphonies, is planning to tour the first two of them starting in 2018; he has also been invited to inaugurate the new Klais organ in University of Iowa on 10 February next year and on that occasion will play the second organ symphony in its 8 hour entirety. He intends to record all three symphonies (16 CDs, no less!) and hopes that the last of them will be out by the end of 2022.

Donna Amato did indeed play Toccata II earlier this year in USA - its first performance since the composer premièred it at his public swansong as a performer almost eight decades earlier - but I do not know what other performance or recordings plans there might be for this as yet.

The first book on the composer - _Sorabji: A Critical Celebration_, ed. Prof. Paul Rapoport - was published in 1992 and remains available. The more recent and regularly updated volume about him, _Opus Sorabjianum_, by Prof. Marc-André Roberge, is available online for free download from http://www.mus.ulaval.ca/roberge/srs/07-prese.htm ; the Sorabji Resource Site on which it will be found contains a wealth of further information about the composer and may be visited at http://www.mus.ulaval.ca/roberge/srs/index.htm .

The Sorabji Archive website at www.sorabji-archive.co.uk includes a discography, performance and broadcast information and details of all scores (including sample pages of each) and literary writings, copies of which may be obtained by writing to [email protected] .


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## Guest

Hi Mr. Hinton--it's nice to have someone with your expertise posting here.


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## ahinton

Kontrapunctus said:


> Hi Mr. Hinton--it's nice to have someone with your expertise posting here.


Thank you kindly. I just thought that it would be good to provide some information for those who are already interested and those who might become interested because of the provision of that information! That said, I am immensely indebted to the performers, editors, record companies and scholars who have done and continue to do so very much in support of the cause of this remarkable composer and I should add that it has been and continues to be a great privilege for me to be involved in the formation and development of the archive to that end.


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## ahinton

Kontrapunctus said:


> Hi Mr. Hinton--it's nice to have someone with your expertise posting here.


Thank you; you're welcome!


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## ahinton

*Sorabji: Highlights from the organ symphonies*

ATTENTION ALL ORGANISTS! (and anyone else interested, of course)...

The organist Kevin Bowyer has posted the following on his Facebook page:

"THERE'S NO ORGAN MUSIC BY K S SORABJI THAT WILL FIT INTO A NORMAL CONCERT PROGRAMME". This is now false!

I'm preparing a series of extracts from the middle movement of Symphony 2, varying in length from 3 to 10 minutes, each able to stand alone in a concert programme. Individual variations (a pair of variations in one case) that are effectively concert studies, quite able to hold their own without the rest of the movement. There'll be eight small volumes, just a few pages each, the first of which will be issued in March 2017. They will include comprehensive and detailed suggestions as to how to go about tackling the various specific difficulties. This is the mature Sorabji - lyrical, fiery, colourful, dramatic, mercurial, elegant, romantic, totally original. If you're only familiar with the dark, volcanic deity of the first symphony, this is a voice you won't have heard yet. Can't wait? The Toccata from Symphony 2, although not itself part of my forthcoming series, is already available separately from the Sorabji Archive, as print or PDF download. The address is http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk.

Occupying about 14 minutes in performance, the Toccata is a tough nut to crack, tougher than anything in the upcoming series, but there will be players out there who can do it - and I've no doubt they will. What's kept the name of K S Sorabji separate from the mainstream of 20th century organ music history is the fact that his 17 hours of organ music is given to us in just three huge pieces, overwhelmingly problematic to rehearse and schedule. But he is a genius, largely unknown to organists, though deserving of a place at the top table of truly great writers for the instrument. I hope that, with this new prospect, things are about to change."

Since the world première of Sorabji's Organ Symphony No.1 almost 30 years ago, Sorabji's works for organ solo have been associated almost exclusively with just one name - the extraordinary virtuoso organist Kevin Bowyer.

Sorabji's organ music comprises just three symphonies, each cast in three movements, the first of relatively modest proportions (a mere bagatelle, indeed, at a whisker under 2 hours!) and the other two of a monumentality rare even for Sorabji, their durations being at least 8 hours apiece!

So far, Kevin has recorded Organ Symphony No. 1 (released in 1989 and broadcast on BBC Radio 3 in 1991) and performed it on seven subsequent occasions in as many countries; he has also given two complete and several partial performances of Organ Symphony No. 2, with a third complete performance scheduled for 10 February 2017 in University of Iowa, US.

Kevin's remarkable critical typeset editions of all three symphonies are a tremendous contribution to the project to edit all of Sorabji's scores; however, the prospect of preparing performances of the second and third of them remains uniquely daunting. Kevin's concern about the risk that this will keep them outside the mainstream of organ repertoire is matched by his desire - which many surely share - to hear at least something of this music played by other organists and to encourage them to take up this challenge.

Kevin's aim is therefore to persuade organists to prepare these items as standalone pieces for inclusion in recital programmes, with the additional hope that some might be selected by juries of international organ competitions as test pieces for candidates.

This project is accordingly launched with the brilliantly effervescent celestial firework display that is the Toccata which closes the opening section of the finale of Organ Symphony No. 2; it is a coruscating virtuoso display piece of the highest order that transcends all expectations of an organ toccata. This is already available separately; please visit the catalogue of works on the Sorabji Archive website (www.sorabji-archive.co.uk ) for information about it; copies of this, either in paper format or as a .pdf file, may be obtained by emailing sorabji-archive.co.uk .

Watch this space for the addition of more such extracts in 2017 (these will be taken from the symphony's massive middle movement Theme and Variations).

We wish the very best of success to all intrepid organists who take up this viscerally exciting challenge!


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## ahinton

*SORABJI: NEW FILM DOCUMENTARY AND PERFORMANCES*

Organist Kevin Bowyer recently gave the US première of Sorabji's Organ Symphony No. 2 in University of Iowa where he had been invited to inaugurate its concert hall's new Klais organ following a disastrous flood in 2008 that destroyed the venue and its previous organ. Kevin's performance of this massive three movement work, more than eight hours in duration, was received with great enthusiasm.

Kevin devoted thousands of hours over many years to the preparation of the world première that he gave in Glasgow, Scotland, in 2010. He has since created magnificent typeset critical editions of all three Sorabji organ symphonies, of which copies are available from The Sorabji Archive (see www.sorabji-archive.co.uk ), along with all of Sorabji's other scores and literary writings,.

A crowd-funded film documentary about the organ symphonies project, with especial reference to the second symphony, is being made in Iowa, of which details and a link may be found on the Sorabji Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/KaikhosruShapurjiSorabji/posts/983423815092737?comment_id=986688958099556 ; to quote:
"A remarkable story rich with cinematic potential: the deluge of 2008, the effort to rebuild, the musical palace that rose forth, the remarkable organ placed at its heart, the magician (Kevin Bowyer) called upon to give it life, and the 8 1/2 hour Sorabjian incantation.

Please consider making a contribution to help assist in the funding effort to produce this film:

_Sorabji in Iowa: A documentary_

Help GOLDrush raise $8,000 for the project: Sorabji in Iowa: A documentary. Your gift will make a difference!"

The link to donate is goldrush.uiowa.edu . So far, almost 50% of the required sum has been raised, so yes, do please give generously towards this historic project!

Pianist Jonathan Powell will be touring what is still Sorabji's most famous work, Opus Clavicembalisticum, this year. To date, six performances have been confirmed, as follows:

050517 Brighton, UK: St. Michael's Church

090517 London, UK: Rosslyn Hill Chapel

130517 Oxford, UK: Jacqueline du Pré Music Building

011017 Karlsruhe, Germany:	Musentempel

061017 Glasgow, Scotland:	Concert Hall, University of Glasgow

251017 Brno, Czechia: Concert hall JAMU (Janáček Academy)

Other dates and venues are in the pipeline.

This seminal work will never have received so many performances within a single year!


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## ahinton

Last Saturday, 13 May, at Oxford's Jacqueline du Pré Music Building, Jonathan Powell gave what was probably the finest performance that Sorabji's monumental _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ has ever received. It was only its 17th performance since the composer's own world première in Glasgow in 1930.

After an unsettled and rather rushed brief opening _Introito_, the ensuing _Preludio Corale_ occasionally exhibited similar issues but, once Jonathan launched into the first of the four fugues in the work, he was on top form and remained there throughout. There were some devastating moments of fulminating virtuosity alongside the most sensitively shaped phrasing in the fugues whose essential _bel canto_ qualities he brought to the fore and without which they can risk sounding rather like rigorous intellectual exercises. The reticence and pervasive stillness of the mermerising Adagio that comes around two-thirds of the way through the work was another high point. Jonathan held the audience's rapt attention throughout its near 4½ hours, a not inconsiderable feat in itself; the audience response and glowing comments after it testify to the great success of his achievement.

The page turner was also excellent!

Jonathan had given two performances of the work in the previous 8 days and has at least four more this year, in Karlsruhe, Glasgow, Brno and Tianjin. It is fair to say that the piece has never had so much exposure.


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## Bettina

ahinton said:


> Last Saturday, 13 May, at Oxford's Jacqueline du Pré Music Building, Jonathan Powell gave what was probably the finest performance that Sorabji's monumental _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ has ever received. It was only its 17th performance since the composer's own world première in Glasgow in 1930.
> 
> After an unsettled and rather rushed brief opening _Introito_, the ensuing _Preludio Corale_ occasionally exhibited similar issues but, once Jonathan launched into the first of the four fugues in the work, he was on top form and remained there throughout. There were some devastating moments of fulminating virtuosity alongside the most sensitively shaped phrasing in the fugues whose essential _bel canto_ qualities he brought to the fore and without which they can risk sounding rather like rigorous intellectual exercises. The reticence and pervasive stillness of the mermerising Adagio that comes around two-thirds of the way through the work was another high point. Jonathan held the audience's rapt attention throughout its near 4½ hours, a not inconsiderable feat in itself; the audience response and glowing comments after it testify to the great success of his achievement.
> 
> The page turner was also excellent!
> 
> Jonathan had given two performances of the work in the previous 8 days and has at least four more this year, in Karlsruhe, Glasgow, Brno and Tianjin. It is fair to say that the piece has never had so much exposure.


Has this work ever been recorded? If not, are there any plans to make a recording in the near future? I'd love to hear this mammoth _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ and there's no way that I'm going to try to sight-read through it myself!!


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## Guest

Bettina said:


> Has this work ever been recorded? If not, are there any plans to make a recording in the near future? I'd love to hear this mammoth _Opus Clavicembalisticum_ and there's no way that I'm going to try to sight-read through it myself!!


Oh sure. John Ogdon's is the one to get at the moment:










https://www.amazon.com/Sorabji-Opus...1495161739&sr=8-1&keywords=john+ogdon+sorabji

Jonathan Powell will probably record it someday. In the meantime, he is about to release his recording of a 7-hour Sorabji piece, "Sequentia Cycilca sopra Dies Irae ex missa pro defunctis." It is supposed to be even more demanding than "O.C."! Now _that_ will be something to hear!


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## ahinton

Kontrapunctus said:


> Oh sure. John Ogdon's is the one to get at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Sorabji-Opus...1495161739&sr=8-1&keywords=john+ogdon+sorabji
> 
> Jonathan Powell will probably record it someday. In the meantime, he is about to release his recording of a 7-hour Sorabji piece, "Sequentia Cycilca sopra Dies Irae ex missa pro defunctis." It is supposed to be even more demanding than "O.C."! Now _that_ will be something to hear!


I'm sure that Jonathan will record OC eventually but no specific plans have been made as yet, In the meantime, the work due for release this year (Sequentia Cyclica super Dies Iræ) turns out to be all of 500 minutes and occupy 7 CDs; it will indeed hopefully be released soon. However, I'm not sure that it's "more demanding" than _OC_ except in being around twice its length! I attended the world première of it in Glasgow in 2010.


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## Guest

ahinton said:


> I'm sure that Jonathan will record OC eventually but no specific plans have been made as yet, In the meantime, the work due for release this year (Sequentia Cyclica super Dies Iræ) turns out to be all of 500 minutes and occupy 7 CDs; it will indeed hopefully be released soon. However, I'm not sure that it's "more demanding" than _OC_ except in being around twice its length! I attended the world première of it in Glasgow in 2010.


I thought I read somewhere that it has even denser writing and more overtly virtuoso passages. It really doesn't need to be any harder than "O.C."!


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## Capeditiea

PetrB said:


> One guy's taste - Just Like All Entries In This Thread (and every entry in this entire forum.) ... that includes your opinion(s), just in case you were thinking you are a special case... which I am certain you do not.
> 
> You know any Gods or Demigods, I'd like to meet'em.


 did i come too late to the party?


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## Capeditiea

But yes. it is clearly time to resurrect Sorabji's thread. 

*nods, he is by far my favourite, with Messeian as a close second.


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## xrysida

Have you ever listen Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji - The perfumed garden with Michael Habermann in piano, 
live in rocky river, ohio 19-11-84? It was an amazing perfomance!!


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## ahinton

xrysida said:


> Have you ever listen Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji - The perfumed garden with Michael Habermann in piano,
> live in rocky river, ohio 19-11-84? It was an amazing perfomance!!


Try also Yonty Solomon's recording of it on Altarus. At least a dozen other pianists have performed this piece and Jonathan Powell has recently recorded it for Piano Classics label (not yet released).


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## Sequentia

After a long wait, Powell's recording of _Sequentia cyclica_ is at last listed on Piano Classics's website and is to be released in January next year:

https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/s/sorabji-sequentia-cyclica/


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## ahinton

Sequentia said:


> After a long wait, Powell's recording of _Sequentia cyclica_ is at last listed on Piano Classics's website and is to be released in January next year:
> 
> https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/s/sorabji-sequentia-cyclica/


Yes, a very long wait indeed! - but it will be well worth it! Also soon to be released are Vols. VI & VII to complete Fredrik Ullén's survey of the 100 Transcendental Studies and Abel Sánchez-Aguilera's 2-CD set of _Toccata seconda_.


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## flamencosketches

What's a good place to start w/ Sorabji's piano music? Preferably something under 7 hours please.


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## norman bates

flamencosketches said:


> What's a good place to start w/ Sorabji's piano music? Preferably something under 7 hours please.


check out the nocturnes." Gulistan - the rose garden" for example. Great decadent, dreamy and intoxicating music. If you're obssessed with form or melodies though, it could not be for you.


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## Sequentia

flamencosketches said:


> What's a good place to start w/ Sorabji's piano music? Preferably something under 7 hours please.


That might depend on how familiar you are with 20th-century music, but in general, I would suggest the following:


_Concerto per suonare da me solo_: recorded by Jonathan Powell for Altarus
_100 Transcendental Studies_: the first 83 have been recorded by Fredrik Ullén for BIS on five CDs. All the recordings contain some gems (and a couple lesser pieces), but I would say the 5th volume is the least accessible one.
Other Powell recordings: _Fantasia ispanica_ and both the _Un nido_ and _Villa Tasca_ discs are worth checking out.
Piano Sonata No. 1: an early piece displaying a strong influence of Scriabin, in a superb performance by Hamelin

Despite its length, I would recommend not shying away from _Sequentia cyclica_; it is a set of variations on the _Dies irae_ chant, which gives the work a sense of familiarity, and many of the variations are not that long. If you do decide to make it an entry point into Sorabji, I would highlight disc 4 of the upcoming Powell recording, which contains many of the work's most accessible "character pieces".


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## flamencosketches

^I like to consider myself very familiar with 20th C. music, it’s probably the focal point of my classical music interests. But Sorabji is a composer who has evaded my interest thus far. I am fascinated by the long pieces, but I don’t know if they’d be a good entry point. 

I’ll look into your suggestions, though. Thanks.


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## Guest

Ooooh, a Sorabji thread--this really is a great site! I've been a huge fan of his music for a long time. I think I own just about every CD (and a few LPs) that's been released, and I'm certainly looking forward to the new _Sequentia cyclica_ recording by Jonathan Powell.


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## Sequentia

Hot on the heels of _Sequentia cyclica_, Piano Classics has announced the upcoming release of Sorabji's _Toccata seconda_, under the hands of Abel Sanchéz-Aguilera:

https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/s/sorabji-toccata-seconda-per-pianoforte/

This piece, which I plugged in this thread all the way back in November 2011, is one of the most easily approachable of Sorabji's large-scale works and I would recommend it to anyone interested in exploring Sorabji's music.


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## flamencosketches

Sequentia said:


> Hot on the heels of _Sequentia cyclica_, Piano Classics has announced the upcoming release of Sorabji's _Toccata seconda_, under the hands of Abel Sanchéz-Aguilera:
> 
> https://www.piano-classics.com/articles/s/sorabji-toccata-seconda-per-pianoforte/
> 
> This piece, which I plugged in this thread all the way back in November 2011, is one of the most easily approachable of Sorabji's large-scale works and I would recommend it to anyone interested in exploring Sorabji's music.


Complete with a badass Bosch album cover. I'm there.


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## aussiebushman

flamencosketches said:


> ^I like to consider myself very familiar with 20th C. music, it's probably the focal point of my classical music interests. But Sorabji is a composer who has evaded my interest thus far. I am fascinated by the long pieces, but I don't know if they'd be a good entry point.


I am certainly indebted to Mr Hinton's comments in this thread. Despite his strong (and very mixed) reputation, I was personally unaware of Sorabji's work. That is especially silly because I discovered Fredric Ullen's CD featuring the first set of 25 of the "100 Transcendental Studies for Piano" hidden in plain sight in my collection. I may have played it before, but that is unlikely because once heard, it is near impossible to forget.

Having done some research, I now understand Sorabji to have "a highly idiosyncratic style fusing diverse influences, initially strongly influenced by Scrabin even though Sorabji subsequently became a critic of the former's musical style and fell more under the influence of Busoni, Debussy and Lizst amongst others.(Source - Wikipedia).

I do not find it to be atonal and it is indeed very satisfying music. Listening to the studies, I became attuned to his complex harmonies, rhythms and ornamentation. It is not my impression that the works are atonal- they are far more complex and range from entwined melodic phrases, wild dances, sensual nocturnes to staccato chords. (Comments taken from the sleeve notes).

This is number 71 of the studies: 




Why stop there?

The Rose Garden: 




Fantaisie Espagnole


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## Sequentia

Happy 128th birthday, Sorabji! (I suppose I ought to celebrate it somehow...)


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## flamencosketches

Sequentia said:


> Happy 128th birthday, Sorabji! (I suppose I ought to celebrate it somehow...)


Likewise, maybe I ought to finally check out his music. What's his shortest piece? Anything under an hour?

Edit: Never mind, someone already kindly created a list of recommendations for me earlier in the thread, which it appears I've ignored.


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## Sequentia

flamencosketches said:


> Likewise, maybe I ought to finally check out his music. What's his shortest piece? Anything under an hour?
> 
> Edit: Never mind, someone already kindly created a list of recommendations for me earlier in the thread, which it appears I've ignored.


No worries about that.  I also mentioned _Toccata seconda_ earlier in this thread, which, despite being 2.5 hours long, is one of his more accessible large-scale works. You can sample its first movement, which fuses his rhapsodic style and baroque influences, at the link below:






Here are a few further short pieces/excerpts to get you going:






















And if you're feeling brave (or have some time to spare), here is the _Symphonic Nocturne for Piano Alone_ (all 2+ hours of it):


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## ahinton

flamencosketches said:


> Likewise, maybe I ought to finally check out his music. What's his shortest piece? Anything under an hour?
> 
> Edit: Never mind, someone already kindly created a list of recommendations for me earlier in the thread, which it appears I've ignored.


Indeed but many things, as you will by now have seen - and all scores available from us as both printed copies and .pdf files (www.sorabji-archive.co.uk) by emailing [email protected] .


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## DavidA

Kontrapunctus said:


> Oh sure. John Ogdon's is the one to get at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Sorabji-Opus...1495161739&sr=8-1&keywords=john+ogdon+sorabji
> 
> Jonathan Powell will probably record it someday. In the meantime, he is about to release his recording of a 7-hour Sorabji piece, "Sequentia Cycilca sopra Dies Irae ex missa pro defunctis." It is supposed to be even more demanding than "O.C."! Now _that_ will be something to hear!


The story goes that one of Ogden's friends bought the score in a car boot sale or something. Ogden put it on the piano and sight read his way completely through it at one go!


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## Guest

Even though some of his available pieces are several hours long, one doesn't have to listen to them in one sitting! Try a movement at a time. As Sequentia said, _Sequentia cyclica super "Dies irae" ex Missa pro defunct_is is fairly accessible despite its enormous length. Having a memorable theme as the basis helps.


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## flamencosketches

Sequentia said:


> No worries about that.  I also mentioned _Toccata seconda_ earlier in this thread, which, despite being 2.5 hours long, is one of his more accessible large-scale works. You can sample its first movement, which fuses his rhapsodic style and baroque influences, at the link below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are a few further short pieces/excerpts to get you going:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if you're feeling brave (or have some time to spare), here is the _Symphonic Nocturne for Piano Alone_ (all 2+ hours of it):


I enjoyed the first one, the movement from the Toccata Seconda. Very Scriabin-esque, especially harmonically, but with textures almost like a Baroque toccata. I'll have to get around to the others.


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## gregorx

Listened to Gulistan, one of his Piano Concertos, and Fantaisie Espangnole. Certainly has a feeling of jazz about it. Wouldn't be surprised if Bill Evans was a fan of his. Probably a few jazz composers and pianists of that era were listening to him. And him to them.


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