# Who is your favorite Wagner conductor?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And why? :tiphat:

PS I'm sure I left some out. 

You may choose more than one.

OOPS, Forgot Solti


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Itulian a good thread idea however in my opinion as creator of the OP it is good etiquette to lead by example and state your favorite, and why. It shows that you have some thoughts of your own too.

If you don't think your view is worth stating, why should anyone else? I'm pretty sure you listen to more Wagner than me. I'm interested in your opinion.

Personally I like Solti but haven't heard enough Wagner to be that confident in my choice. I'm interested to see how the results turn out.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I've heard quit a few but I always come back to Solti.:tiphat:


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I like Solti but voted for Futwangler but I've actually only heard Furtwangler's Rheingold, which I thought was magical.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Depends how you like your Wagner. I prefer it not to be the tub thumping sort which is why I go for Karajan. Furtwangler was, of course, another master Wagner conductor.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

*Within this list I would definitely pick: *

Furtwangler
Keilberth
Karajan
Knappertsbusch

*As "other", I would pick:*

Albert Coates (who did the most fantastic job in the "Potted Ring")
Victor de Sabata
Thomas Beecham
Dimitri Mitropoulos

*Honorable Mention: *Leopold Stokowski with his Wagner symphonic synthesis.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Overall I say "live" Furtwangler gets the crown, but on a specific opera another conductor could be best like Knappy and Parsifal

The 50 Furtwangler Ring on Pristine XR gives the best insight to his orchestral mastery, even though the orchestra is definitely not world class there are still musical insights revealed that elude others........an almost spiritual connection is achieved that goes beyond the written note and into the soul of an artist, a musical ecstasy that is fluid and organic, perfect for wagner's unique flowing sound world


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner, like all great composers, can take a variety of interpretive approaches, and the considerable stylistic changes in his works between _Hollander_ and_ Parsifal_ suggest that different conductors may be more effective in different works. If I had to choose just one Wagner conductor, I'd have no hesitation in choosing Furtwangler, despite the fact that his Wagner is not as well documented as we would wish. We have complete performances of only the _Ring_ and _Tristan_, in most cases with inferior orchestras and uneven casts in mediocre sound. My biggest regret is that we have no _Parsifal_ from him, but his _Tristan_ remains in many ways incomparable in its grandeur and profundity.

We have somewhat better documentation of Hans Knappertsbusch, whose evolving approach to _Parsifal_ is well-documented and whose _Ring_, _Tristan_, _Meistersinger_ and _Hollander_ we can also hear. "Kna" may be the conductor people most associate with the "ponderous" Teutonic school of Wagner conducting, but an exploration of his recorded legacy reveals that judgment to be somewhat simplistic and misleading. What he and Furtwangler both understood was the art of bringing music to life from within - letting it breathe like an organism, as it were - in a way that makes absolute tempo almost beside the point. For a further demonstration of old-school German Wagner at its best, I would recommend the _Parsifal_ excerpts recorded in the 1920s by Karl Muck, who "owned" the opera in the generation before Knappertsbusch.

Furtwangler's Italian contemporary Toscanini must be mentioned as a superb conductor of Wagner who can be heard in many recorded excerpts but, to my knowledge, no complete operas. A fascinating and surprising fact is that he led, at Bayreuth in 1931, the slowest performance of _Parsifal_ on record, clocking in at four hours and forty-two minutes. It was considered a remarkably beautiful performance at the time, and I have no doubt that Toscanini sustained the work more effectively than James Levine, whose recorded performances are not only slow but torpid.

Of younger German conductors, I'm impressed with Kempe, Keilberth, and the young Karajan, who gave us some exciting Wagner in the theater in the 1950s, but whose later studio productions, though sonically beautiful, have an air of artifice and hyperrefinement (in addition to uneven casting and occasional odd engineering) which can put me off.

Solti's Wagner is vital but tends to lack warmth, inwardness, and a sense of the long line. His recordings are variable, but some are nonetheless highly effective. Of more recent conductors I can't say much.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I am not a big enough Wagner fan to vote really, though I do have recordings of all the operas from *Hollander* onwards. I have a lot of the Karajan recordings, his *Tristan*, his *Ring*, his *Parsifal* and his !951 Bayreuth *Meistersinger* so I'd probably go for him, if pushed.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

For me it's Furty, Knappy, Thielemann, Solti

Furty for orchestral mastery and getting to the heart of the work.
Knappy for the grandeur.
Thieleman , who's Ring has blown me away.
Solti for his recordings for Decca. Exciting


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Daniel Barenboim for me, because I heard him conduct Rheinegold and Siegfried live. It was an absolute masterclass on how to conduct Wagner. The trick is don't play Wagner loud, Barenboim's command of balance and volume is astounding. He would only turn up the amp during the musical inteludes and then bring it down during the singing passages, this was seemless. I am aslo a big fan of his Kupfer Ring, though the recording does sound loud. And generally his conducting just sounds right.

Antonio Pappano is also pretty good, he conducted Tristan as if it were Mozart, softly and deftly. The voices were clear throughout, only ratcheting up the volume for the climax of the Liebestod. I heard Semyon Bychkov conduct Tristan and it was so loud you would think an aircraft was taking off.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Thanks to Italian for making this a multiple choice poll!

I'm relatively new to Wagner (started listening 6 months ago...) so I have a lot left to still listen to; my thoughts are coming more from the "rookie" than "seasoned veteran" side of things. I will say the most beneficial aid in my Wagner listening has been from the kind advice of other members on this site!

For me, in my journey thus far, Keilberth Ring cycles have been extremely enjoyable, never a dull moment (I still have Furty, Kna and Krauss Ring Cycles that need to be listened to....). Furtwangler conducting "Tristan" was a watershed moment for me, (Bohm was nice and the '52 HvK is in the listening line still..). Kna's '62 Parsifal remains epic (Barenboim was enjoyable...)... 

I feel that Woodduck summed it up best in his post... inevitably for me, I won't be surprised if each major work has a different conductor whom I prefer, and thats not a bad thing!


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

I'm surprised Karajan is so popular.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Furtwangler's Italian contemporary Toscanini must be mentioned as a superb conductor of Wagner who can be heard in many recorded excerpts but, to my knowledge, no complete operas. *A fascinating and surprising fact is that he led, at Bayreuth in 1941*, the slowest performance of _Parsifal_ on record, clocking in at four hours and forty-two minutes. It was considered a remarkably beautiful performance at the time, and I have no doubt that Toscanini sustained the work more effectively than James Levine, whose recorded performances are not only slow but torpid.


Surely not!! In the middle of the second world war?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Surely not!! In the middle of the second world war?


Good spotting. Typo. Now changed to 1931. Danke schoen.

BTW, for those interested, here's a site which gives timings for _Parsifal_ performances at Bayreuth. The difference between the fastest (Boulez at 3'38") and slowest (Toscanini at 4'42") is an hour and four minutes! Also given are timings for performances of the Act One prelude, including two by Wagner himself which differ considerably, illustrating the perils of making doctrinaire statements about "correct" tempos and "what the composer wanted."

http://www.wagneropera.net/Operas/Intro-Parsifal.htm


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Becca said:


> Surely not!! In the middle of the second world war?


Definitely not, Becca, it was Heinz Tietjen.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

interestedin said:


> I'm surprised Karajan is so popular.


On his recording of Ride of the Valkyries you can feel 'rain' in the strings. It is the most stormy, wet, version of the piece recorded.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

interestedin said:


> I'm surprised Karajan is so popular.


Wagner's orchestration can be made to yield all sorts of magical effects, and Karajan was a wizard with the orchestra, bringing out interesting details and obtaining effects of stunning sensuousness and suavity. I suppose this is preferable to what was referred to a few posts back as "tub thumping," but I don't think I'd characterize Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, or Kempe that way. None of them were "virtuoso conductors" wanting to put their personal stamp on the operas; they were concerned to immerse themselves in Wagner's mythos and present his scores as organic wholes, with the details done justice but never drawing attention to this moment or that effect. Mine may be an extreme reaction to what I perceive as Karajan's narcissism, but I really am not interested in hearing again his late Wagner recordings with the BPO. I think he was a better conductor at Bayreuth in the '50s, where he wasn't in charge of everything.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

tub thumping?.......


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The lost art of thumping a tub I presume!


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Such a tough call. Furtwängler, Krauss, Knappertsbusch and Keilberth are all in the running. They each have at least one Ring that I would not want to be without. I ended up voting for Furty on the fact he has a great Ring and Tristan, but I could easily say Kna tomorrow.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Wagner's orchestration can be made to yield all sorts of magical effects, and Karajan was a wizard with the orchestra, bringing out interesting details and obtaining effects of stunning sensuousness and suavity. I suppose this is preferable to what was referred to a few posts back as "tub thumping," but I don't think I'd characterize Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, or Kempe that way. None of them were "virtuoso conductors" wanting to put their personal stamp on the operas; they were concerned to immerse themselves in Wagner's mythos and present his scores as organic wholes, with the details done justice but never drawing attention to this moment or that effect. Mine may be an extreme reaction to what I perceive as Karajan's narcissism, but I really am not interested in hearing again his late Wagner recordings with the BPO.* I think he was a better conductor at Bayreuth in the '50s, where he wasn't in charge of everything*.


*
For me that is also true*, the very best Wagner I have heard by Karajan is the 51 Bayreuth Ring (split with Knap) and 52 Bayreuth Tristan and 51 Bayreuth Meistersinger, here was a youthful conductor full of passion and swagger giving us unforgettable performances......after that Karajan left the legendary stage of Bayreuth and performed some Wagner here and there at various locations, but not as much as you would expect from the mighty conductor of the great BPO, which under previous conductors were great advocates of Wagner's music.

When Solti and Decca label threw down the gauntlet with first studio Ring DG label had to respond and record the best studio Ring they could at that time with Karajan, and for live Ring Karajan did not return to Bayreuth but instead to his own Salzburg Festival, these are all beautifully crafted and finely polished performances often with compelling results......but nothing could capture those halcyon days of early "new" Bayreuth when the great wagner icons made their name


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I find that most, not all, conductors give a little more in live performance than in the studio. Solti and Karajan spring to mind, both having too much control in the studio, sometimes to the detriment of the interpretation. The added frisson of possible catastrophe in a live performance makes all the performers strive that little bit harder. After all, to properly perform, you have to have someone to perform to and receive that all-important audience interaction.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Leaving off the conductors that I only have represented by one or two recordings:

Furtwangler by a lot.

Bohm
Kubelik
Elmendorff
Krauss
Knappertsbusch
Keilberth
Barenboim
Thielemann
Karajan
Kleiber
Kempe
Sawallisch
Boulez

The recordings I own that I enjoy the least due to the performances in the pit--Solti, Levine, Goodall, Leinsdorf (most of the time, although I like some of his studio Walkure), Bodanzky


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

I voted for Furtwangler as well, pretty much on the strength of his La Scala and RAI Rings and his studio Tristan, which just goes to show how monumental those are. But the conductor who might just be my second favorite didn't make the list -- Kubelik's Meistersinger, Parsifal and Lohengrin are three of the best recordings of those works I own.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Faustian said:


> I voted for Furtwangler as well, pretty much on the strength of his La Scala and RAI Rings and his studio Tristan, which just goes to show how monumental those are. But the conductor who might just be my second favorite didn't make the list -- Kubelik's Meistersinger, Parsifal and Lohengrin are three of the best recordings of those works I own.


Thanks for including Kubelik. :tiphat:


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

For the Ring, Thielemann for conducting.

With vocals taken into consideration, Solti.

Props given to Leonard Bernstein for the incomparable recording of _T&I_, Wagner's best work.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Balthazar said:


> For the Ring, Thielemann for conducting.
> 
> With vocals taken into consideration, Solti.
> 
> Props given to Leonard Bernstein for the incomparable recording of _T&I_, Wagner's best work.


I love that recording , the love duet is the most erotic I've ever heard :tiphat:


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Itullian said:


> Thanks for including Kubelik. :tiphat:


Yeah, Kubelik and Sawallisch both should be in the running.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I can't choose a favorite or "greatest" Wagner conductor . Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch ,Levine, Karajan, Solti , Barenboim, Kempe, and others, each great in his own way .
Other outstanding ones include Sawallisch, Jochum , Krauss, Keilberth, Boehm, Janowski , Dohnanyi, 
Leinsdorf, Leitner, etc. 
Each brought different approaches and insights into the Wagner stage works , which are inexhaustible
masterpieces which no one will ever get to the bottom of.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> *
> For me that is also true*, the very best Wagner I have heard by Karajan is the 51 Bayreuth Ring (split with Knap) and 52 Bayreuth Tristan and 51 Bayreuth Meistersinger, here was a youthful conductor full of passion and swagger giving us unforgettable performances......after that *Karajan left the legendary stage of Bayreuth and performed some Wagner here and there at various locations, but not as much as you would expect from the mighty conductor of the great BPO, which under previous conductors were great advocates of Wagner's music.*
> 
> When Solti and Decca label threw down the gauntlet with first studio Ring DG label had to respond and record the best studio Ring they could at that time with Karajan, and for live Ring Karajan did not return to Bayreuth but instead to his own Salzburg Festival, these are all beautifully crafted and finely polished performances often with compelling results......but nothing could capture those halcyon days of early "new" Bayreuth when the great wagner icons made their name


I can't understand the statement that Karajan didn't conduct as much Wagner 'as you would expect from the mighty conductor of the great BPO' when he performed all the mature Wagner operas at the Salzburg Festival (and some at other venues) and recorded them all apart from Tannhauser. That would seem to me to be a pretty good strike rate.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Not strictly true about Tannhauser DavidA. Although he didn't do a studio version DG released a live Paris version from Vienna Staatsoper, 1963 with Beirer, Brouwenstein, Wachter, Frick and Ludwig. It is excellent and well worth hunting down a copy.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

My two favourites were missing from the list: John Pritchard and Donald Runnicles.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Delicious Manager said:


> My two favourites were missing from the list: John Pritchard and Donald Runnicles.


So you can vote: Other.
Please do tell more about John Pritchard conducting Wagner


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Pugg said:


> So you can vote: Other.
> Please do tell more about John Pritchard conducting Wagner


I did vote 'other'. 

Silly, silly me! I didn't mean John Pritchard, I meant Reginald Goodall.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Delicious Manager said:


> I did vote 'other'.
> 
> Silly, silly me! I didn't mean John Pritchard, I meant Reginald Goodall.


That's understood now.
Thanks for clearing that up :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Not strictly true about Tannhauser DavidA. Although he didn't do a studio version DG released a live Paris version from Vienna Staatsoper, 1963 with Beirer, Brouwenstein, Wachter, Frick and Ludwig. It is excellent and well worth hunting down a copy.


Yes I meant studio recordings. Unfortunately I don't care for the opera.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

My favorite so far is actually Giuseppe Sinopoli, whose recordings of _Tannhauser_ and _Der Fliegende Hollander_ I own. I'd probably like Levine as well.

The one I don't care for is Sir Georg Solti. His interpretations always sound "cold" to me.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Itullian said:


> OOPS, Forgot Solti


A serious omission. Solti does the definitive Ring Cycle (with competition for Gotterdammerung.) If Solti had been up there, I would have voted for him, but ticked Levine instead.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Bellinilover, I couldn't disagree more with you about Solti's Wagner. Far from being "cold", it's in fact red hot , steaming with passion , dazzling colors and headlong sweep .


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

Mine is Petrenko. When he is conducting, it's as if Wagner was whispering in his ear, what he had thought when he had composed it. Probably even better. I'm not sure whether Wagner understood the full impact of his own music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ginger said:


> Mine is Petrenko. When he is conducting, it's as if Wagner was whispering in his ear, what he had thought when he had composed it. Probably even better. I'm not sure whether Wagner understood the full impact of his own music.


Isn't it a little risky to say that a conductor understands music better than its composer? Considering that he both composed it and conducted it (and supervised those he hired to conduct it) , I suspect Wagner had a fair idea of his work's likely impact on other people. He even said that a good performance of _Tristan_ would drive people crazy. Not to say, of course, that he wouldn't have been ecstatic to hear someone like Furtwangler make the interweaving sonorities of Brangaene's warning into the perfect nocturnal poem of ecstasy and tragedy it's intended to be.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

znapschatz said:


> A serious omission. *Solti does the definitive Ring Cycle* (with competition for Gotterdammerung.) If Solti had been up there, I would have voted for him, but ticked Levine instead.


Solti did the first completely commercially released cycle. It is, of course, a great achievement but to say it's 'definitive' is going too far. There are other ways of doing it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Solti did the first completely commercially released cycle. It is, of course, a great achievement but to say it's 'definitive' is going too far. There are other ways of doing it.


Indeed. If there's any composer whose works are far too complex (and just plain difficult) to be given "definitive" performances, it's Wagner. I can live with one recording of _Tosca_ or even _Otello_, but one performance of _Tristan_ or the _Ring?_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Indeed. If there's any composer whose works are far too complex (and just plain difficult) to be given "definitive" performances, it's Wagner. I can live with one recording of _Tosca_ or even _Otello_, but one performance of _Tristan_ or the _Ring?_


Actually I'd apply that to a whole lot of other composers who wrote great music. Why I often collect multiple versions of a work I love as I enjoy the difference in interpretation. And, of course, most versions have weaknesses as well as strengths.


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Isn't it a little risky to say that a conductor understands music better than its composer? Considering that he both composed it and conducted it (and supervised those he hired to conduct it) , I suspect Wagner had a fair idea of his work's likely impact on other people. He even said that a good performance of _Tristan_ would drive people crazy. Not to say, of course, that he wouldn't have been ecstatic to hear someone like Furtwangler make the interweaving sonorities of Brangaene's warning into the perfect nocturnal poem of ecstasy and tragedy it's intended to be.


Yes, it is risky! But I have read a few Wagner biographies and I got the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Wagner could be a very fascinating and entertaining personality, but at times he could be difficult. Of course he knew about the impact his music had, just as you said. But I'm not sure whether he was emphathetic enough to know what people except him were exactly feeling. But then we are probably very close to the Borderline-discussion again.


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