# Plagiarism?



## Serpilea (Oct 21, 2016)

Has anyone noticed that the beginnings of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and Schubert's "Standchen" are identical?﻿


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

It is a historical fact that composers in the past complimented each other by quoting themes. It was common place to borrow themes and expand the ideas for all part of artistic sensibility. Today, modernism has created an idea called "plagiarism". As long as we interpret history correctly, we know what is the appropriate term to use.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I don't hear plagiarism in the two pieces. For one thing the accompaniments move differently in a fairly distinct manner. Even if one influenced the other I wouldn't call it plagiarism.


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Not plagiarism, but transformation. Think of Wagner's Tristan vs Romeo and Juliet by Berlioz. Or Mahler's 3rd vs Beethoven's 16th string quartet. Or Bernstein who completely ripped "Somewhere" from Beethoven's Emperor Concerto. I even realized recently that part of Scott Joplin's Treemonisha is based on Bach's BWV 1068. Countless examples.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Perhaps Schubert was paying a musical tribute to Beethoven.


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## Friendlyneighbourhood (Oct 8, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps Schubert was paying a musical tribute to Beethoven.


But I'm sure if you call it plagiarism it'll get more views?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Would anyone here consider the opening of the Mahler 5 plagiarism? After all, it is the same unusual rhythmic figure as the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.

Of course not. It was one great composer paying a musical tribute to another.


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## Friendlyneighbourhood (Oct 8, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Would anyone here consider the opening of the Mahler 5 plagiarism? After all, it is the same unusual rhythmic figure as the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
> 
> Of course not. It was one great composer paying a musical tribute to another.


Every composer that uses three of the same note or uses triplets is definitely ripping off Beethoven, fact


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Serpilea said:


> Has anyone noticed that the beginnings of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and Schubert's "Standchen" are identical?﻿


Wow, that's the most controversial new post I've seen so far.
Welcome to Talk Classical.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Serpilea said:


> Has anyone noticed that the beginnings of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and Schubert's "Standchen" are identical?﻿


They aren't even remotely close.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Serpilea said:


> Has anyone noticed that the beginnings of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" and Schubert's "Standchen" are identical?﻿


No and it's not true also.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps Schubert was paying a musical tribute to Beethoven.


Or perhaps he just learned from Beethoven that plagiarism is okay:






:angel:


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## Friendlyneighbourhood (Oct 8, 2016)

Pugg said:


> No and it's not true also.


Ok thanks, where did my pizza go? And I love you also :kiss:


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> They aren't even remotely close.


It's all in the ear of the beholder. I think it's valid to call it plagiarism if obviously similar without acknowledgement. Although it may have been accepted practice then to "borrow", it's interesting in modern times it would go straight to the courts. The Led Zeppelin "Stairway" case comes to mind.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Richard8655 said:


> It's all in the ear of the beholder.


Or his eyes if he reads the score.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Beethoven's first piano sonata's opening theme to the opening movement shamelessly rips off the melody from Mozart's 25th symphony 1st movement. Doubtless Mozart stole it from some pauper with a lute in Vienna. The lot of them were cheaters and hacks and we've been fooled all along.


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## Serpilea (Oct 21, 2016)

A little Google research will reveal that Schubert lived one century before Beethoven. If anything, it would be Beethoven paying tribute to Schubert.


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## Serpilea (Oct 21, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps Schubert was paying a musical tribute to Beethoven.


A little Google research will reveal that Schubert lived one century before Beethoven. If anything, it would be Beethoven paying tribute to Schubert.


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## Friendlyneighbourhood (Oct 8, 2016)

Serpilea said:


> A little Google research will reveal that Schubert lived one century before Beethoven. If anything, it would be Beethoven paying tribute to Schubert.


Thank you. Whatever would we do without your help :tiphat:


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Serpilea said:


> A little Google research will reveal that Schubert lived one century before Beethoven. If anything, it would be Beethoven paying tribute to Schubert.


I think you have got that wrong 
Schubert 1797-1828
Beethoven 1770 - 1827
They were very much contemporaries


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## Serpilea (Oct 21, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Wow, that's the most controversial new post I've seen so far.
> Welcome to Talk Classical.


I am not sure if you are being condescending or really honest.  Don't fret, I can deal with both situations.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I checked my Google and it said the Mendelssohn stole the opening of his overture to Elijah from the Jaws theme. I listened to both, and by gosh it was right!


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## Serpilea (Oct 21, 2016)

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> Thank you. Whatever would we do without your help :tiphat:


If you are looking for conflict, I think you are on the wrong website. People attacking others simply because "these others" have an opinion usually meet on Youtube.


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## Friendlyneighbourhood (Oct 8, 2016)

Serpilea said:


> If you are looking for conflict, I think you are on the wrong website. People attacking others simply because "these others" have an opinion usually meet on Youtube.


No sorry, I would be lost without you. I don't share your knowledge. Thanks for enlightening me! :cheers:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

When Stravinsky needed inspiration, he went to the movies and then simply ripped off the soundtracks:






(Warning: It's kind of disturbing)


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## Friendlyneighbourhood (Oct 8, 2016)

brianvds said:


> When Stravinsky needed inspiration, he went to the movies and then simply ripped off the soundtracks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh my god that feels strange and disturbing to hear Stravinsky's Rite in there :scold:


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Would anyone here consider the opening of the Mahler 5 plagiarism? After all, it is the same unusual rhythmic figure as the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.


Until you made the suggestion, it had never occurred to me that they are in any way similar.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Serpilea said:


> I am not sure if you are being condescending or really honest.  Don't fret, I can deal with both situations.


Real honest without hesitation:tiphat:.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2016)

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> Oh my god that feels strange and disturbing to hear Stravinsky's Rite in there :scold:


More disturbing is Bob Peck with an American accent!


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## Serpilea (Oct 21, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Real honest without hesitation:tiphat:.


Well, in that case, thank you. I was already feeling attacked. And not necessarily by you.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> Oh my god that feels strange and disturbing to hear Stravinsky's Rite in there :scold:


Well, I'm sorry that ALSO disturbed you. I meant the film from which the clip is, and the clip itself, might disturb sensitive viewers.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Serpilea said:


> Well, in that case, thank you. I was already feeling attacked. And not necessarily by you.


Another problem solved .:cheers:


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## johankillen (Sep 20, 2015)

Listen to dan giovanni when dan giovanni get stabbed... or listen to it when Barenboim explain it 



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1150023081735165


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> It's all in the ear of the beholder. I think *it's valid to call it plagiarism if obviously similar without acknowledgement*. Although it may have been accepted practice then to "borrow", it's interesting in modern times it would go straight to the courts. The Led Zeppelin "Stairway" case comes to mind.


No, it isn't. There are standard chord progressions and figures so commonplace in the classical style that they are common property. The similarity in the case of this thread is trivial.

The Zeppelin Stairway case was ruled against the claimant for the same reason. The chord progression is commonplace (Listen to the opening of "Blue Skies," for example) and the bass line of the opening guitar riff even more so. The ear of every beholder hears that Page clearly got the idea from Spirit's "Taurus," and yet it was ruled not to be plagiarism because its elements are themselves not particularly original.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> No, it isn't. There are standard chord progressions and figures so commonplace in the classical style that they are common property. The similarity in the case of this thread is trivial.
> 
> The Zeppelin Stairway case was ruled against the claimant for the same reason. The chord progression is commonplace (Listen to the opening of "Blue Skies," for example) and the bass line of the opening guitar riff even more so. The ear of every beholder hears that Page clearly got the idea from Spirit's "Taurus," and yet it was ruled not to be plagiarism because its elements are themselves not particularly original.


My point was about acceptance of "borrowing" in past centuries vs. modern times plagiarism leading to court action. The specifics in the OP's example is subject to consensus interpretation as to whether it's commonplace, similar, or neither. So it is subjective in the ear of the beholder(s) and courts.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> My point was about acceptance of "borrowing" in past centuries vs. modern times plagiarism leading to court action. The specifics in the OP's example is subject to consensus interpretation as to whether it's commonplace, similar, or neither. So it is subjective in the ear of the beholder(s) and courts.


Oh, I see. I missed your point.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> Every composer that uses three of the same note or uses triplets is definitely ripping off Beethoven, fact


I even practice talking like that. Where I live nobody could identify the pattern.

When I was asking my first wife for divorce, I used the pattern to say

Why don't you LE-----AVE? I need a BR----EAK!!!


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> I think you have got that wrong
> Schubert 1797-1828
> Beethoven 1770 - 1827
> They were very much contemporaries


Schubert was a pallbearer at Beethoven's funeral.

The opening measures of the Midsummer Night's Dream Overture can be heard in the closing measures of Scheherazade. No coincidence: Rimsky-Korsakoff admired Mendelssohn.

John Williams has been accused of plagiarizing Dvorak's 9th symphony (third movement) for the Jaws theme.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Oh, I see. I missed your point.


But you make a very good point about standard chord progression being common property, especially at that time. So I see what you're saying.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

geralmar said:


> Schubert was a pallbearer at Beethoven's funeral.
> 
> The opening measures of the Midsummer Night's Dream Overture can be heard in the closing measures of Scheherazade. No coincidence: Rimsky-Korsakoff admired Mendelssohn.
> 
> John Williams has been accused of plagiarizing Dvorak's 9th symphony (third movement) for the Jaws theme.


And Bill Conti for "borrowing" from Tschaikovsky's Violin Concerto for The Right Stuff. But I think Conti went out of his way to acknowledge that.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

I hear the main theme of the 1st movement of Brahms' 3rd in Mahler's 6th.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I was listening to Cage's 4'33" and was sure I could hear a plagiarized Beethoven's 9th, but it turned out it was the radio in the other room...


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## Autocrat (Nov 14, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Would anyone here consider the opening of the Mahler 5 plagiarism? After all, it is the same unusual rhythmic figure as the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
> 
> Of course not. It was one great composer paying a musical tribute to another.


Rubbish. Everyone knows that Mahler stole the opening of his 5th from the Red Dwarf title theme.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

:: pushes up glasses:: Actually, the opening of Beethoven's 5th is a rest and three eighth notes, not triplets.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Try comparing the Brahms with the Schumann Third.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So, you believe that in the finale to Schubert's Ninth Symphony, Schubert is purposely lifting the brotherhood theme from Beethoven's finale to the Ninth Symphony, hoping nobody would notice, and is not simply paying tribute to Beethoven?

I mean it's so obvious where the theme came from. It's not like Schubert is attempting to hide it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DaveM said:


> I was listening to Cage's 4'33" and was sure I could hear a plagiarized Beethoven's 9th, but it turned out it was the radio in the other room...


Hilarious


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> I think you have got that wrong
> Schubert 1797-1828
> Beethoven 1770 - 1827
> They were very much contemporaries


Ah he was thinking of Wolfgang Amadeus Schubert and his cousin Johann Sebastian Chopin they ripped off heaps....


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

To be serious for a moment, I am just listening to the end of Shostakovich's wonderful Viola Sonata (op.147, his last completed work). It quotes thematic material from his own 2nd Piano Trio (equally wonderful) and then goes rambling through a range of fragments, including the 1st mvmnt of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata. That's certainly not plagiarism. It may be a nod of respect, or perhaps a neat way of invoking mood in an otherwise abstract piece. Whatever, it works. If you don't know the Viola Sonata, it is worth listening to.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

^^^ What amazes me about that LVB allusion is how much Shostakovich is able to make it sound like it's his own. One of the most moving musical allusions I can think of, btw.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I've noticed that when I sit and attempt to compose to the best that my ability will allow, everything that I produce sounds like John Cage 4'33. Not wanting to be accused of plagiarism, I have so far suppressed my entire corpus.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Triplets said:


> I've noticed that when I sit and attempt to compose to the best that my ability will allow, everything that I produce sounds like John Cage 4'33. Not wanting to be accused of plagiarism, I have so far suppressed my entire corpus.


If I could do 4'33'', they would say it was an improvement...............


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

A really gripping performance sails by like 5 minutes!


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## Nevum (Nov 28, 2013)

How about....

this

https://www.google.com/#q=kuhlau+piano+concerto&tbm=vid

versus this


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

I merely find it a very difficult subject. Shutting up for 4'33" and I could be accused of it. Playing one note for a certain amount of time is very dangerous also, it might have been written down by some composer before and I could rightfully be accused of stealing it. So where does plagiarism start really? Or the other way around: how many notes could you borrow from a composer to be in the safe?


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## childed (Jul 15, 2017)

Richard8655 said:


> The Led Zeppelin "Stairway" case comes to mind.


it seems that piece is a public domain written in baroque era by harpist O'Carolan

https://musictales.club/article/celtic-baroque-roots-stairway-heaven


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