# Scratchiest HIP performance?



## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Just caught Manze and the English Consort murdering Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that's up there, but lots to choose from...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not sure what the term scratchiest means in this context, but I recently came across Roger Norrington / The London Classical Players' rendition of Beethoven, Symphony No. 9 ($2.49 at a thrift store) on period instruments using Beethoven's metronome markings. Of course it sounds sparse and rushed to my modern ears, especially the recitatives. There are aspects of it I do enjoy, so it's not a loss. It's just a little weird.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

In the '60s, the Telemann Society made a recording of, I believe, Watermusik, using modern players attempting to play historic instruments from a Boston collection. There was no HIP movement then, and no one who knew how to play old instruments -- so the performance was laughably awful.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MarkW said:


> In the '60s, the Telemann Society made a recording of, I believe, Watermusik, using modern players attempting to play historic instruments from a Boston collection. There was no HIP movement then, and no one who knew how to play old instruments -- so the performance was laughably awful.


I had the peculiar experience, in the late '60s, of being hired by the Telemann Society, which was basically a Bostonian married couple determined, on the basis of scant scholarship, to make "authentic" recordings of Baroque music. Having (presumably) a very small budget, they recruited college students to sing in their chorus, and tried to get us to articulate music by putting commas (little silent spaces) between all the notes. My friend Steve and I just knew instinctively that human beings never sang like this, and we quit after a couple of rehearsals. The experience was good for a few laughs at least.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

I find Norrington's Beethoven refreshing. It's stripped of modern politeness and restraint and rips through the symphonies with a wooly roughness that's probably historically closer to the way they were played. I like to hear how CM might have been presented to audiences originally. Maybe it's the historian in me. It's not scratchy to me, but rather a treasure in my library. But I agree that authentic performance doesn't guarantee accuracy or quality.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Deleted in consideration of good taste.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Richard8655 said:


> I find Norrington's Beethoven refreshing. It's stripped of modern politeness and restraint and rips through the symphonies with a wooly roughness that's probably historically closer to the way they were played. I like to hear how CM might have been presented to audiences originally. Maybe it's the historian in me. It's not scratchy to me, but rather a treasure in my library. But I agree that authentic performance doesn't guarantee accuracy or quality.


Actually there's a lot we don't know about how music was originally performed. Playing old instruments, lowering the pitch, and adhering to Beethoven's metronome markings really doesn't get us as far as Norrington and others would like to think. I find Norrington's 9th interesting and in some respects likable, but also at times rigid, rushed and superficial. I doubt that Beethoven's own playing could ever remotely be so characterized.

If you really want to hear rigid, rushed, superficial, and utterly inauthentic music-making, listen to Norrington play Wagner. His _Tristan_ prelude is a travesty.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Yes true, we can never really know definitively how anything sounded 200+ years ago unless a recording device was present. But attempts to reproduce it based on what we do know is valid, interesting, and possibly enjoyable (I think). It also may be that a piece performed in an authentic manner though may sound awful to our modern ears may in fact have been exactly how it was intended. Our modern biases and tastes may be playing havoc with how we perceive period performances. Although I agree some may be way off the mark in accuracy (i.e., scratchy). Again, we can never really know.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mal said:


> Just caught Manze and the English Consort murdering Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that's up there, but lots to choose from...


I think well of the Manze performance which is fresh, energetic and excellently-paced; also, the instrumental sounds are very attractive. Long live the scratch!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Melvin Tan's playing Beethoven concertos gives me the creeps.


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## LOLWUT (Oct 12, 2016)

Gergiev conducting Mahler. 

Horrendous.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

First time I listened to Pachebel's Canon with London baroque it was a little bit weird.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Scratchiest HIP Performance?

Almost all of them? I find this whole HIP craze and obsession just that: A craze and obsession. I find many of them awful, a few almost palatable, and even fewer good. I've never understood this drastic importance of being "authentic" in musical performance when it comes to period instruments. God only knows what things sounded like back then. I found it academically interesting for a moment or two, but the novelty wore off fast and I was soon desiring to hear great recordings once again of great music that my "modern" ears found pleasing performed by excellent musicians.

What also turns me off to the movement is the smugness of some HIPsters (usually the more staunch supporters) as if they are superior because they are so "genuine" and "real" and enjoying anything short of that would make them frauds. I actually met one who basically stated that (and wasn't embarrassed the least). It was hard not to just slap him across the face and walk away. Not in anger mind you, nor in any emotional way. Just matter-of-factly as if to snap him out of his silliness, so I just walked away.

But if it rings your bell, I say carry on and enjoy. Not my cup of tea.

V


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Thankfully, we are far from the early days when HiP baroque performances were a pathetic joke.

Folks like Midori Seiler are absolutely astonishing on baroque violin these days.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

On "authenticity" in performance, I take a position of qualified enthusiasm. Scholarship devoted to understanding performance practices of the past is our responsibility as musicians if we play old music, and I think our approach to music up through the early 19th century has benefitted greatly, and that the best "period" performances are quite exciting to hear.

What we shouldn't forget is that even within a given period, different performances of the same work varied considerably, and not only in the Baroque when tempo, ornamentation and even instrumentation were often not specified. There's no question that the actual sound of early music is, by and large, more true to its nature now than it was in 1950. But even in the 19th-century, performance practice allowed for much interpretive latitude; in fact, this would have been expected in that age of intense personal expression. We have only to listen to early recordings of pianists, violinists and singers to hear the sort of executive freedom performers could bring to the written note, often beyond anything we would dare nowadays. Read Wagner's essay "On Conducting," where he talks about tempo modification in the service of expression, and try to match that conception of performance style with the work of any conductor since Mengelberg and Furtwangler.

Dogmatic approaches to authenticity are always wrong, as the better musicians well know. We are making music for our own time, not for 18th-century audiences. What they heard and enjoyed is interesting to speculate on, but we can't hear with their ears. I'll take Josef Szigeti's rugged, monumental and profound Bach "Chaconne" over anyone's whiny, scratchy little Baroque fiddle. If you've never heard it, here it is:


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

There goes that damn Wooduck again! Making sense and being level headed.

I do find Trevor Pinnock having found a great balance when it comes to Baroque music. Some of his stuff is just outright masterful!

V


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Excellent points made by Woodduck, and I agree with almost all of them. I'd only add my comment and perspective regarding period performances. 

Yes, we are making music for our own time and our own listening expectations and pleasure. But for many, it's interesting to try to recreate what such performances might have sounded like then. They may not be as pleasant for our modern ears, but there's an interest in hearing and knowing what style our ancestors liked and were pleased by. Even if it comes across as a scratchy fiddle, the point is not so much in the name of modern emotional performance satisfaction, but in getting an idea of what music might have sounded like then. Therein lies the satisfaction... as a discovered historical musical artifact.

And yes, these period performances may never hit the mark in accuracy of what was intended. But as in any discovery process, the attempt in my mind is always worthwhile. I know many here may not agree, but again my perspective.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Richard8655 said:


> And yes, *these period performances may never hit the mark in accuracy of what was intended*.


And yes, modern instrument performances probably hit the mark in accuracy of what was intended even less.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> Yes, we are making music for our own time and our own listening expectations and pleasure. But for many, it's interesting to try to recreate what such performances might have sounded like then. They may not be as pleasant for our modern ears, but there's an interest in hearing and knowing what style our ancestors liked and were pleased by. Even if it comes across as a scratchy fiddle, the point is not so much in the name of modern emotional performance satisfaction, but in getting an idea of what music might have sounded like then. Therein lies the satisfaction... as a discovered historical musical artifact.


My high opinion concerning period performance has little to do with historical accuracy. I simply get much more enjoyment from period performances.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mal said:


> Just caught Manze and the English Consort murdering Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, that's up there, but lots to choose from...


This is the best Eine Kleine I have heard, performed on a string quintet.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Just found:






That starts really well, doesn't sound as harsh or abrasive as many period performances, and is more dynamic than the average ASMF outing. But, for me, it starts to drag a bit in the second moveent. The third movement sounds a bit thin & staid - more strings and more beauty please, more like ASMF, please...

I have the first Marriner recording in my collection, which I now find too tame, but quite beautiful in the slow movements. But I have just discovered his second recording, which seem to fix the problems:






My new benchmark!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

For me one of the most problematic aspects of HIP is the matter of vibrato. Often I find the sound of strings, especially solo strings, played vibratoless to be thin, colorless, and whiny. Performers differ in how much vibrato they will use in early music, and a continuous, throbbing vibrato such as we hear in modern string playing is often inappropriate. But vibrato gives richness, life and expressive power to string tone, and we know it was used for expressive purposes even in the Baroque. My guess is that, as with most performance practices, the use of vibrato was highly variable from performer to performer, and that the virtual elimination of it is an example of HIP dogmatism.

The same applies to singing, with the added consideration that vibrato occurs naturally in a well-functioning voice, and thus its complete suppression can sound affected as well as expressionless. For me, the effect of a thin, vibratoless voice with an ensemble of vibratoless instruments gives many "authentic" performances a wan, pallid feel which falls short of realizing the potential emotional power of Baroque and Classical music. I'll take Elly Ameling, Maria Stader, or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf over Emma Kirkby, Dorothee Mields, or your favorite flutey-toned "HIP" soprano - woman or boy - any day.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> For me one of the most problematic aspects of HIP is the matter of vibrato. Often I find the sound of strings, especially solo strings, played vibratoless to be thin, colorless, and whiny. Performers differ in how much vibrato they will use in early music, and a continuous, throbbing vibrato such as we hear in modern string playing is often inappropriate. But vibrato gives richness, life and expressive power to string tone, and we know it was used for expressive purposes even in the Baroque. My guess is that, as with most performance practices, the use of vibrato was highly variable from performer to performer, and that the virtual elimination of it is an example of HIP dogmatism.
> 
> The same applies to singing, with the added consideration that vibrato occurs naturally in a well-functioning voice, and thus its complete suppression can sound affected as well as expressionless. For me, the effect of a thin, vibratoless voice with an ensemble of vibratoless instruments gives many "authentic" performances a wan, pallid feel which falls short of realizing the potential emotional power of Baroque and Classical music. I'll take Elly Ameling, Maria Stader, or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf over Emma Kirkby, Dorothee Mields, or your favorite flutey-toned "HIP" soprano - woman or boy - any day.


In general, I like HIP and I dislike wobbly exaggerated vibrato. But I agree that some HIP violin performances have a thin, almost feeble sound that doesn't do justice to the character of the music.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> For me one of the most problematic aspects of HIP is the matter of vibrato. Often I find the sound of strings, especially solo strings, played vibratoless to be thin, colorless, and whiny. Performers differ in how much vibrato they will use in early music, and a continuous, throbbing vibrato such as we hear in modern string playing is often inappropriate. But vibrato gives richness, life and expressive power to string tone, and we know it was used for expressive purposes even in the Baroque. My guess is that, as with most performance practices, the use of vibrato was highly variable from performer to performer, and that the virtual elimination of it is an example of HIP dogmatism.
> 
> The same applies to singing, with the added consideration that vibrato occurs naturally in a well-functioning voice, and thus its complete suppression can sound affected as well as expressionless. For me, the effect of a thin, vibratoless voice with an ensemble of vibratoless instruments gives many "authentic" performances a wan, pallid feel which falls short of realizing the potential emotional power of Baroque and Classical music. I'll take Elly Ameling, Maria Stader, or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf over Emma Kirkby, Dorothee Mields, or your favorite flutey-toned "HIP" soprano - woman or boy - any day.


I'm just the opposite concerning baroque music. I don't want any vibrato from the strings or singers.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Pretty much anything by Harnoncourt and his Period Group. Squally oboes, whiny strings...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Not scratchy but anachronistically out of line.

Wanda Landowska's Bach played on some huge, ridiculous harpsichord the size of which would have been unknown in Bach's time.

Shape up Landowska!!


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> For me one of the most problematic aspects of HIP is the matter of vibrato. Often I find the sound of strings, especially solo strings, played vibratoless to be thin, colorless, and whiny. Performers differ in how much vibrato they will use in early music, and a continuous, throbbing vibrato such as we hear in modern string playing is often inappropriate. But vibrato gives richness, life and expressive power to string tone, and we know it was used for expressive purposes even in the Baroque. My guess is that, as with most performance practices, the use of vibrato was highly variable from performer to performer, and that the virtual elimination of it is an example of HIP dogmatism.
> 
> The same applies to singing, with the added consideration that vibrato occurs naturally in a well-functioning voice, and thus its complete suppression can sound affected as well as expressionless. For me, the effect of a thin, vibratoless voice with an ensemble of vibratoless instruments gives many "authentic" performances a wan, pallid feel which falls short of realizing the potential emotional power of Baroque and Classical music. I'll take Elly Ameling, Maria Stader, or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf over Emma Kirkby, Dorothee Mields, or your favorite flutey-toned "HIP" soprano - woman or boy - any day.


Because you are about 1000 times more eloquent than I am, you pretty much summed up perfectly why I dislike HIPs. I find the VAST majority thin, pallid, shallow, and colorless in both sound and texture. Often I find the texture grating.

I knew if I waited long enough someone would be able to put beautifully in words what I think and feel about it. So thank you for that. How I wish I had your eloquence.

But hey, at least I talk good.

V


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Just in: Freiburger Baroque Orchestra caught torturing Vivaldi on BBC Radio 3.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0802108 [00:39]

DJ: "I wonder what sound Vivaldi's orphans made? Perhaps he was happy that the following concerto was played by the Court Orchestra of Dresden, which is still going today as the Staatskapelle Dresden...", then straight into the concerto... with horns more out of tune than any HIP outfit so far... strings scratching away like nails on a chalkboard...

Here's me thinking: "Oh no, is this one of the great modern orchestras of Germany now? I bet the orphans played better than this..." I turned over to Classic FM in disgust and was heartened by a wonderful performance of the Haydn Trumpet Concerto by the English Chamber Orchestra: glorious (in-tune!) trumpet playing; full, beautiful, strings, lively as Harnoncourt at his HIPest.

http://www.classicfm.com/radio/playlist/2016/october/28/aled-jones/ [7.11am]

I turned back to Radio 3, the Vivaldi was still playing, but fortunately it soon stopped. The DJ then announced: "That was the Freiburg baroque orchestra".

"Phew," I thought, "perhaps everything is alright in Dresden."

Then it was straight into a hyper-modern avant-garde clarinet solo, followed by news of the destruction of the NHS. This isn't good for my digestion! Then (thankfully) a wonderful Mozart overture with a superb modern orchestra, "Who are they?" I wondered in awe. The announcer announced smugly, "THAT was the Staatskapelle Dresden". Phew.


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