# Ted Gioia - stop trying to rebrand classical music



## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Good article

https://tedgioia.substack.com/p/can-we-stop-talking-about-rebranding


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I disagree with the premise, though some of his observations are fine enough.

Firstly, I think there is some conflation here with "organizations that sell performance tickets or recorded albums featuring classical music" and "classical music itself."

Then there is the problem of "branding" versus "rebranding." Rebranding too often can be destructive (see the Mondelez disaster). But organizations that desire to make enough money to stay in existence (let alone turn a profit) need a brand. And if their brand is not helpful towards that goal, they need a rebrand.

Think about Deutsche Grammophon. They have one of the most successful brands in music. That yellow label is something they've used for 70 plus years, and it's got both a strong level of recognition ans a reputation for quality. But take some of the other labels on this list and I wouldn't know what expectations to form of them or judgments to make of them. And correspondingly I would be less likely to buy their albums.

As far as orchestras themselves, they are in an even more precarious position financially, especially in these uncertain times for public events. A strong brand identity can project things to consumers - making them more likely to donate, more likely to resume attendance when halls reopen, and choose subscriptions because of a perception/expectation of quality. Typography and graphic design matter. If they didn't, no one would care and everything would be in Comic Sans or something.

If one is referring to classical music broadly, as in "the reputation of classical music," I am certainly receptive to the argument that such a vast and long-lived cultural force is not amenable to one brand or any one person's attempt to create a brand. No one "brand" could possibly educate people sufficiently, nor would it be universally adopted. It's like trying to rebrand the word "Chair." The word evolved on its own through regular usage (which is why Classical Music snobs always get bent out of shape over the use of the "classical" terminology to apply to the broad category when it "in fact" only describes one era in the music itself. It's a whole can of worms that might be called the "prescriptive vs. descriptive linguistics" debate, and if you want me to go off on it try using the phrase "begs the question" incorrectly  ).

Classical music certainly has a public relations problem. People like the music but are intimidated by the stuffiness and snobbery of actually paying to go to the events. That's a problem when the orchestras and record labels need to make money in order to survive. So to the extent that "brands" and typography can help, I say more power to them.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Hey, graphic designers need work too.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

I asked my grandkids about classical music. They agreed among themselves to say that they would rather listen to rap, because as they've 'discovered’;

It's more ‘immediate’ to them and the ‘songs’ are shorter.
It has a relevant message.
The rappers understand them and they understand the rappers.

It has a strong beat and has the best elements of both singing and the good background beat.

All the friends think that ‘nice’ singing is “corny” (my word substituted for a vulgarism).

Now, with the lack of exposure, education and little appreciation (or interest) these kids are average kids, I guess. This is what the future of CM is up against.

I understand that kids have to rebel and go on to build their own lives and be responsible for families, so their answers might've been just more of a subtle shade of disobedience… and shock value.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Luchesi said:


> I asked my grandkids about classical music. They agreed among themselves to say that they would rather listen to rap, because as they've 'discovered';
> 
> It's more 'immediate' to them and the 'songs' are shorter.
> It has a relevant message.
> ...


They sound like perfectly healthy kids. And I don't see anything wrong with their attitude toward classical music. There are many genres of music which can offer just as rewarding a listening experience as classical music. In fact, I foresee the audience for traditional classical music to dwindle over the next decades. As they mature their tastes will also mature, but they may never become fans of classical music.

For me, the most interesting music is often not new classical recordings, unless it is new avant-garde classical music.

How many new recordings of a Beethoven sonata cycle can the market sustain before reaching the point of inducing a shrug?


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> ...
> How many new recordings of a Beethoven sonata cycle can the market sustain before reaching the point of inducing a shrug?


That's true of all the pop genres too though. To me it's all mostly rehash, to you it's fresh and rewarding. But there really aren't any more Beatles or Stones or NWA or Run-DMC. It's been done to death.

As for how many Beethoven cycles can be absorbed, we'll eventually find out. But Beethoven will always be Beethoven and Bach will always be Bach, no pun intended...and my hunch is they'll be around long after the latest pop sensation.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

My only complaint is we need a photo of all the composers posing in Christmas sweaters like a family sitcom.

















Maybe someone can shop one up.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Esa-Pekka Salonen stated we need a new term for classical the genre, to avoid confusion with classical the stylistic era.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

progmatist said:


> Esa-Pekka Salonen stated we need a new term for classical the genre, to avoid confusion with classical the stylistic era.


I think it would be be easier to do the opposite - rename the stylistic era. Hayzart has a ring to it.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

dissident said:


> Bach will always be Bach, no pun intended...


you mean "Bach will always be Back?"


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> I think it would be be easier to do the opposite - rename the stylistic era. Hayzart has a ring to it.


Yep. The ship has sailed and pedants need to move on.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I don't think it's particularly necessary. Words change meaning based on context, it happens. It should generally be obvious if someone means "classical" as in like, "not Debussy"


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I agree that "rebranding" is pointless if all you're doing is giving it a different name.

I disagree that the problem that classical music has with younger people is that they're not expanding the repertoire to contemporary composers. The people who concert halls want to attract are not going to be seduced by less Beethoven and more Thomas Ades. To the extent that classical still has power with people it's because of the old repertoire, not despite it.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Gallus said:


> I agree that "rebranding" is pointless if all you're doing is giving it a different name.
> 
> I disagree that the problem that classical music has with younger people is that they're not expanding the repertoire to contemporary composers. The people who concert halls want to attract are not going to be seduced by less Beethoven and more Thomas Ades. To the extent that classical still has power with people it's because of the old repertoire, not despite it.


Totally agree.

I went to four outdoor concerts in Downtown Chicago over the last month, so I could observe a lot of people from children to the elderly. The Grant Park Symphony programs one warhorse, one new piece, and one choral piece per night, essentially. Beethoven 1 and Dvorak 9 were by far the most "popular" in terms of toe tapping and head bopping, kids "conducting" along, and overall applause.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> They sound like perfectly healthy kids. And I don't see anything wrong with their attitude toward classical music. There are many genres of music which can offer just as rewarding a listening experience as classical music. In fact, I foresee the audience for traditional classical music to dwindle over the next decades. As they mature their tastes will also mature, but they may never become fans of classical music.
> 
> For me, the most interesting music is often not new classical recordings, unless it is new avant-garde classical music.
> 
> How many new recordings of a Beethoven sonata cycle can the market sustain before reaching the point of inducing a shrug?


Thanks, it's again surprising to hear your posts, from a musician like you (I mean I don't remember you being a young musician).

But I agree that very few young people these days will develop a strong appreciation for CM. There would probably need to be a series of lucky accidents. They're not hearing CM from any adult's radio, or even cartoons.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

We have a shortage of honesty in our society, though Gioia's article is a refreshing exception. 

Let's be honest about what classical music's brand has been, is, and will be: that it is the music of the cultural elite. 

People who want to be a part of that elite will learn as much about it as serves their purposes. Some of them will become so curious about it and enjoy it so much that they'll do weird things like argue about it on message boards. It'll last as long as humanity does.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> We have a shortage of honesty in our society, though Gioia's article is a refreshing exception.
> 
> Let's be honest about what classical music's brand has been, is, and will be: that it is the music of the cultural elite.
> 
> People who want to be a part of that elite will learn as much about it as serves their purposes. Some of them will become so curious about it and enjoy it so much that they'll do weird things like argue about it on message boards. It'll last as long as humanity does.


If what you say is true, it doesn't bode well. As classical music becomes ever less prevalent in everyday life, it will lose even its "cultural elite" status. How many people today learn Latin to climb the social ladder?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I found the article very local and do not think the redesign of logos for certain US orchestras and venues has a lot to do with CM in general.
The "cultural elite" status is rather doubtful today. For the influential economic, political, technological and broadly cultural elites CM is not important anymore and probably has not been for half a century. Our culture (the US more and earlier but Europe as well) has been mostly dominated by popular culture since then (and even the 50s and 60s were an intermediate period with high culture vaning but still having some relevance) 
What did Obama say what's on his ipod? A carefully balanced mix of mostly popular music to appear close to different groups of the population. Supposedly he also mentioned Coltrane and Callas but all of this need hardly be taken seriously. 

The Latin comparison is apt. Sure, there are still some niches where Latin and Greek will get you some elite Oxbridge degree and then a career in politics. But this is a small niche and there are far more and overall more successful avenues into "the elite". Neither is classical music necessary or particularly helpful to get into today's elite positions.
I am genuinely puzzled that there is still the idea that CM is carefully maintained to exclude the unwashed masses and secure "privileges" when has either not been true anymore since the 1960/70s or, more importantly, so few people care at all about classical that the fact that some of the elite also enjoy CM is mostly irrelevant for getting into prestigious positions or wealth or golf clubs or whatever. Looks like a 50 year old strawman to me.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> I found the article very local and do not think the redesign of logos for certain US orchestras and venues has a lot to do with CM in general.
> The "cultural elite" status is rather doubtful today. For the influential economic, political, technological and broadly cultural elites CM is not important anymore and probably has not been for half a century. Our culture (the US more and earlier but Europe as well) has been mostly dominated by popular culture since then (and even the 50s and 60s were an intermediate period with high culture vaning but still having some relevance)
> What did Obama say what's on his ipod? A carefully balanced mix of mostly popular music to appear close to different groups of the population. Supposedly he also mentioned Coltrane and Callas but all of this need hardly be taken seriously.
> 
> ...


The cultural elite definitely does not entirely map onto wealth or power. Probably never has.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

amfortas said:


> If what you say is true, it doesn't bode well. As classical music becomes ever less prevalent in everyday life, it will lose even its "cultural elite" status. How many people today learn Latin to climb the social ladder?


There will always be some kind of "elite" music, just as there will be elite forms of speech and clothing. People of various classes (and other forms of identity) will always create various markers to indicate their identity, and people aspiring to those identities will always seek to adopt those markers.

In other words, classical music -- or perhaps better, so that we can include jazz and Indian classical music and gamelan and so on, "art music" -- will always exist, although of course it will to change with the times, as it always has.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> The cultural elite definitely does not entirely map onto wealth or power. Probably never has.


But it does map onto some kind of widely held assumptions about what constitutes that elite status. In that broad sense, I would say classical music hasn't entirely lost its footing, but has nonetheless been losing ground.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> There will always be some kind of "elite" music, just as there will be elite forms of speech and clothing. People of various classes (and other forms of identity) will always create various markers to indicate their identity, and people aspiring to those identities will always seek to adopt those markers.
> 
> In other words, classical music -- or perhaps better, so that we can include jazz and Indian classical music and gamelan and so on, "art music" -- will always exist, although of course it will to change with the times, as it always has.


I don't see your second paragraph as necessarily following from your first.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> There will always be some kind of "elite" music, just as there will be elite forms of speech and clothing. People of various classes (and other forms of identity) will always create various markers to indicate their identity, and people aspiring to those identities will always seek to adopt those markers.
> 
> In other words, classical music -- or perhaps better, so that we can include jazz and Indian classical music and gamelan and so on, "art music" -- will always exist, although of course it will to change with the times, as it always has.


I don't see your second paragraph as necessarily following from your first.

Yes, there will always be elite forms of, let's say, clothing and fashion. But that doesn't mean I'll score any points by walking down the street in velvet breeches and a powdered wig. Even if we accept that culturally elite music, like fashion, will "change with the times," such changes may eventually make it unrecognizable as what we now call "classical" music, just as fashionable dress is nothing like what it was centuries ago.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

science said:


> We have a shortage of honesty in our society, though Gioia's article is a refreshing exception.
> 
> Let's be honest about what classical music's brand has been, is, and will be: that it is the music of the cultural elite.
> 
> People who want to be a part of that elite will learn as much about it as serves their purposes. Some of them will become so curious about it and enjoy it so much that they'll do weird things like argue about it on message boards. It'll last as long as humanity does.


For me this is one of the most corrosive aspects of classical music: it can only be viewed as the music of the culturally elite if the culture that produced it is thought of as superior. Part of it is a bias in favor of a written tradition, or literacy as a metric for cultural development.

The fact is that most of the world's music does not have a written tradition, the music was passed along for generations through an oral process. And often the music cannot be successfully described in standard notation. Even a genre such as Jazz started out as a vernacular tradition and only later incorporated written scores. But an important distinction between Jazz and Classical scores is that a Jazz musician must have some experience of the music through an oral process since many of the rhythms are not played as notated.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

science said:


> We have a shortage of honesty in our society, though Gioia's article is a refreshing exception.
> 
> Let's be honest about what classical music's brand has been, is, and will be: that it is the music of the cultural elite.
> 
> People who want to be a part of that elite will learn as much about it as serves their purposes. Some of them will become so curious about it and enjoy it so much that they'll do weird things like argue about it on message boards. It'll last as long as humanity does.


You have to define "elite" more exactly, because as it is that's a politically loaded term. If it means overall excellence, then fine. A lot of it is "elite" product, just as Einstein and Feynman were "elite" scientists, Rembrandt was an "elite" painter. But if the implication is that I value that music simply because the upper classes tell me that's how I should feel, then that's hogwash. In my opinion.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Just one tabloid example: Can anyone today imagine a "triangle" like Callas, Onassis, Jackie Kennedy today? 
Like Elon Musk stealing Kozena from Rattle?

Of course there is no perfect overlap between different elites. 
But it is really laughable to play up classical music as some sinister secret handshake of elites excluding the everyman. 

This is a strange US highbrow hate, a strange anti-elitism between hillbilly confidence (who needs that ****, we have both kinds of music, country AND western) and resentment which is IMO far more destructive to the enjoyment of high culture than the supposed elitism of those offensively defending and promoting high culture as superior. It's also an easy and nowadays seemingly innocuous way to feel superior to them egghead elitists who are not open to any trashy and thoroughly commercialized popular culture (that, in cases like rap also gets a pass for promoting the most disgusting sexist, phobic, poisonous attitudes since De Sade).


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

"cultural elite" is a highly politically loaded term which should probably be avoided outside the politics board

that said more formally complex art has associations with higher education, though the association of higher education with upper class has at least somewhat diminished. you do see this kind of negative association with academia happen with e.g. the negative association of 20th century music with higher education ("academic serialists" and all that)


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

OK this is entirely off-topic but I just realized where I recognized the author's name from.

http://www.postmodernmystery.com/

He did the website on postmodern mystery novels! I had a good look at this one a few years back when I was on a murder mystery kick, it was great as a resource.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

fbjim said:


> "cultural elite" is a highly politically loaded term which should probably be avoided outside the politics board
> 
> that said more formally complex art has associations with higher education, though the association of higher education with upper class has at least somewhat diminished. you do see this kind of negative association with academia happen with e.g. the negative association of 20th century music with higher education ("academic serialists" and all that)


Well academia is also the home of critical theory, which pretty much seeks to deflate the importance given to what is traditionally called "great art". If the monied interests want me to listen to anything, it's probably pop produced by the mega entertainment conglomerates.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

dissident said:


> Well academia is also the home of critical theory, which pretty much seeks to deflate the importance given to what is traditionally called "great art".


I think "great art" can withstand a little hot air let out of the balloon.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

dissident said:


> Well academia is also the home of critical theory, which pretty much seeks to deflate the importance given to what is traditionally called "great art". If the monied interests want me to listen to anything, it's probably pop produced by the mega entertainment conglomerates.


Not to open a can of worms, but I don't think that's a reasonable definition of critical theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory

In philosophy, we were always trained to try to appreciate what someone thinks they are up to, not to evaluate them solely via what we think they're up to from a modern perspective.

So while I'm sure there are some critical theorists who would admit to desiring to "deflate great art," I rather suspect that the majority would not.

If I were to imagine how critical theory would apply to classical music, I think it would focus on how it was created and funded by the upper classes in Renaissance and Enlightenment Europe, how it was co-opted by revolutionary thinkers, and how it came to be seen as the music of "high culture" thereafter. I doubt there would be much in the way of aesthetic evaluation.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

yeah, i don't claim to be a serious philosopher or theorist so i wouldn't really be able to say what counts as "critical theory" and not. i do generally think the purpose of criticism is to provide some sort of framework to explain the context of art, however.

i suspect a theorist would be concerned with contextualizing the _concept_ of "great art", rather than specific works of art themselves. but i don't want to wade too deeply into unfamiliar waters, especially since it seems one of the most misused terms these days along with "postmodernism"


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Not to open a can of worms, but I don't think that's a reasonable definition of critical theory.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory
> 
> ...


They might not even admit to being critical theorists, but that's irrelevant. Aesthetic evaluation anyway would seem always to be subject to the influences of power structures, which is critical theory's real bailiwick. It's more politics than art, and you're right, I don't care to open that can of worms.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> Of course there is no perfect overlap between different elites.
> But it is really laughable to play up classical music as some sinister secret handshake of elites excluding the everyman.


Of course that's not anything like what I was doing, and when people are misconstruing each other's ideas this violently, communication of anything interesting is impossible.


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

At least in America; practically speaking; the elitism comes from the fact that Music Education for example is expensive. I know there's band in high school; but nowadays in the average Joe public high school; it costs money. Band equipment, all of the stuff. So you're not going to expose classical music to the average middle class Joe that much. 

Cutting music education in the schools; or any arts education was a terrible mistake in my view. But that's the route the US took.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

science said:


> Of course that's not anything like what I was doing, and when people are misconstruing each other's ideas this violently, communication of anything interesting is impossible.


No, you weren't really saying that, but here's the original quote:


science said:


> We have a shortage of honesty in our society, though Gioia's article is a refreshing exception.
> 
> Let's be honest about what classical music's brand has been, is, and will be: that it is the music of the cultural elite.
> 
> People who want to be a part of that elite will learn as much about it as serves their purposes. Some of them will become so curious about it and enjoy it so much that they'll do weird things like argue about it on message boards. It'll last as long as humanity does.


I don't love the classical music that I love simply because I aspire to be part of a "cultural elite". Thats as presumptuous as saying that people love the blues because they just want to go slumming or something.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

dissident said:


> No, you weren't really saying that, but here's the original quote:
> 
> I don't love the classical music that I love simply because I aspire to be part of a "cultural elite". Thats as presumptuous as saying that people love the blues because they just want to go slumming or something.


I wasn't saying about you personally, and even if I had been, it would've been a compliment. Whether we like it or not, we live in societies with a variety of elites, and ambition is a virtue.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Among my friends (couples I know so well after decades) who have season tickets, they go to the concert hall on Sunday afternoons and they listen to ‘nice’ music.
They're mainly there for an afternoon out and then a nice dinner afterward. They see their friends (who are just like them) and they talk and talk during intermission, catching up. They don't talk about the music (they might talk about what our female conductor is wearing). They don't care about where it came from, what it influenced afterword, why the composer used some sounds instead of others. They might enjoy any of that if they had the educational background.

They're just there because it's an event once a week. They get dressed up and looking nice for someone who might notice them.

Is this elitism? It smells like elitism…but it’s just VERY human, predictable behavior, no matter what the public activity is…

added:
These folks probably wouldn't go to a loud concert even if it was offering their favorite old music tunes from when they were young. They wouldn't want to be one of 'those' couples!. I think this sounds like elitism, but it's pop music.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Luchesi said:


> Among my friends (couples I know so well after decades) who have season tickets, they go to the concert hall on Sunday afternoons and they listen to 'nice' music.
> They're mainly there for an afternoon out and then a nice dinner afterward. They see their friends (who are just like them) and they talk and talk during intermission, catching up. They don't talk about the music (they might talk about what our female conductor is wearing). They don't care about where it came from, what it influenced afterword, why the composer used some sounds instead of others. They might enjoy any of that if they had the educational background.
> 
> They're just there because it's an event once a week. They get dressed up and looking nice for someone who might notice them.
> ...


It would also be elitism to look down on them for doing any of that.

We're all just humans. We're all in these mind-bogglingly complex societies, trying to muddle our way through the social hierarchies in which we find ourselves, trying to be a little less alone, a little less ill-at-ease with ourselves, a little more respected, a little less anxious.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

science said:


> It would also be elitism to look down on them for doing any of that.
> 
> We're all just humans. We're all in these mind-bogglingly complex societies, trying to muddle our way through the social hierarchies in which we find ourselves, trying to be a little less alone, a little less ill-at-ease with ourselves, a little more respected, a little less anxious.


I've noticed that people will consider you to be elitist if you care about correct grammar and try to correct it. I've always been interested in the logic of grammar and I think it's quite important for it to be correct. But most people think it's just not very important at all, in the big picture.

For me, it's the same kind of thing with CM. So much value there for our long lives, but again the effort required can be easily dismissed if it's considered to be just an elitist subject.

I can put my elitist hat on and say 'these people' are mostly only hurting themselves. Elitism is always partially in accordance with the facts.

(and I added to my earlier post)

added;
Oh and if everyone was as well informed about CM as you and SanAntone this wouldn't be a concern of mine at all, no matter what opinions they develop over time.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> It would also be elitism to look down on them for doing any of that.
> 
> We're all just humans. We're all in these mind-bogglingly complex societies, trying to muddle our way through the social hierarchies in which we find ourselves, trying to be a little less alone, a little less ill-at-ease with ourselves, a little more respected, a little less anxious.


Now I need a hug.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Elitism comes in all sorts of flavors. In the old sense, I think people refer to classical music as a class signifier - eg the "upper crust" going out to the opera.

Certainly there's "elitism" as well that we can point to regarding the "artistically elevated" aspects sometimes associated with classical music versus other genres, but that's something of a different matter.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Marketing efforts should be inclusive of young and old. And let's stop making people dress up for the opera.


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

We just have to fund more music and arts education in the schools.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think that Gioia's point about rebranding becoming too much of a public relations exercise is a strong one.

There is little point in a business updating its image if its a sinking ship. I have come across cases where companies employ a whole entourage of consultants who are paid large amounts to put in effect what appear to be nothing more than superficial changes. What comes after is often the inevitable restructure, involving increased automation and shedding of staff. This tends to erode morale within the company and the confidence of stakeholders.

In the USA, classical music has historically had challenges in the face of issues such as union involvement, manipulation of charity status, and questionable financial management. This culminated in many long standing institutions being brought to their knees in the aftermath of the subprime mortgage crisis.

The way I see it though is that generally speaking, across the world orchestras have done much to reach out to a more diverse audience. The past two decades has seen programs embrace a variety of formats which go beyond the traditional concert, e.g.:

- live performance with simultaneous screening of movie scores
- incorporation of multimedia, such as video game visuals and music
- collaborations with musicians from outside classical - e.g. pop, rock, world.
- collaborations involving other artistic disciplines - e.g. visual art, drama, dance.

This is the sort of real change that's happening behind the rebranding. I think that orchestras are demonstrating an ability to reach out and attract people new to the concert experience. Its leading to an acceptance of new ways of presenting music and making a real difference to better financial management and viability of orchestras.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

jojoju2000 said:


> At least in America; practically speaking; the elitism comes from the fact that Music Education for example is expensive. I know there's band in high school; but nowadays in the average Joe public high school; it costs money. Band equipment, all of the stuff. So you're not going to expose classical music to the average middle class Joe that much.
> 
> Cutting music education in the schools; or any arts education was a terrible mistake in my view. But that's the route the US took.


It's a mistake in more ways than one. Music education increases students' aptitude for math, since music itself is quite mathematical. Grade school music class BTW is where I learned to read music.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Sid James said:


> I think that Gioia's point about rebranding becoming too much of a public relations exercise is a strong one.
> 
> There is little point in a business updating its image if its a sinking ship. I have come across cases where companies employ a whole entourage of consultants who are paid large amounts to put in effect what appear to be nothing more than superficial changes. What comes after is often the inevitable restructure, involving increased automation and shedding of staff. This tends to erode morale within the company and the confidence of stakeholders.
> 
> ...


All unfortunate and cheapening gimmicks that really aren't working.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Haydn70 said:


> All unfortunate and cheapening gimmicks that really aren't working.


I disagree that they are "unfortunate and cheapening gimmicks" and I think that, at least in a financial sense, they are working. Even opera companies, which have the highest costs and have in the past found it near impossible to balance budgets, are making progress by performing musicals as part of their repertoire. The aim is to attract a new audience, and it doesn't cancel out the traditional repertoire.

The first video shows many people, most probably under forty, lining up to go to the concert. These people are bringing their disposable income to enjoy what the orchestra is offering. The orchestra is there to give people what they want. This doesn't only include long time patrons. Its to the benefit of orchestras to develop these new markets, which explains how this practice has been widespread. This income also supplements government subsidies, and strengthens the case that arts organisations are there to serve the broader public, not just a small segment of it.

Apart from financial, I see many other reasons why these sorts of performances are beneficial, e.g.:

1. Since its the 21st century, it makes sense to bring digital technology to the concert hall.

2. Collaboration between different musicians and other branches of the arts can open up dialogue which further connects the orchestra with the world beyond classical music.

3. Classical music has entered popular culture and as the traditional concert repertoire (c. 1750-1950) is virtually a closed shop, it makes sense to extend it with the music the broader public knows - e.g. from movies, television and video games.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Well, "- live performance with simultaneous screening of movie scores" is hardly new - I heard the LSO under Carl Davis doing this back in 1990!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Do you remember which movie? Was it one of his own scores? Was it more like a compilation of scenes from various movies? 

Perhaps he was one of the earliest to do that?

What has become fairly widespread since is complete blockbuster movies like Gladiator, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars being played in the concert hall.


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## rice (Mar 23, 2017)

I wouldn't mind if people consider me as an elite or even a snobbish elite because of my music taste.
Unfortunately I'm more likely to be thought of as a weirdo. Some may disagree but I think it's at least true among the younger generations.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

From Ted Gioia's article, the most pertinent point (aside from "not rebranding"):



> Music is not a competition


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

rice said:


> I wouldn't mind if people consider me as an elite or even a snobbish elite because of my music taste.
> Unfortunately I'm more likely to be thought of as a weirdo. Some may disagree but I think it's at least true among the younger generations.


Being a weirdo is where it's at. Do it with unwavering confidence.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> Being a weirdo is where it's at. Do it with unwavering confidence.


Sometimes you can be so uncool, it's actually cool.

Usually, though, it just means you're *really* uncool.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Sometimes you can be so uncool, it's actually cool.
> 
> Usually, though, it just means you're *really* uncool.


One of the mixed blessings of my life was that I was so ugly in middle school, and my family moved so often (so that I had to change schools), that I literally gave up trying to fit in or have friends. I just did whatever I wanted. Worked out pretty well for me, I think.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

science said:


> One of the mixed blessings of my life was that I was so ugly in middle school, and my family moved so often (so that I had to change schools), that I literally gave up trying to fit in or have friends. I just did whatever I wanted. Worked out pretty well for me, I think.


You didn't end up as the headline on the six o'clock news, so I would have to agree.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

amfortas said:


> You didn't end up as the headline on the six o'clock news, so I would have to agree.


That's nice of you, but I ain't done yet.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Forster said:


> From Ted Gioia's article, the most pertinent point (aside from "not rebranding"):
> 
> 
> 
> > Music is not a competition


Sometimes it is a competition. The Van Cliburn International Piano Competition for example.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

progmatist said:


> It's a mistake in more ways than one. Music education increases students' aptitude for math, since music itself is quite mathematical. Grade school music class BTW is where I learned to read music.


Today's reality is that it's so much easier to learn to play video games, and they're everywhere, than it is to develop an appreciation for the CM masterpieces. I think the minimum amount of time involved in developing a lasting love for CM is about a year.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Sid James said:


> Do you remember which movie? Was it one of his own scores? Was it more like a compilation of scenes from various movies?
> 
> Perhaps he was one of the earliest to do that?


It was his own score to Buster Keaton's "The General". Brilliant bit of work. I think someone posted it on YouTube - the film with his soundtrack.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

What I do find interesting is that the uh, young people I know into music past a general pop music level are into weird challenging music, it's just not classical. It's stuff like noise records and "unfriendly" electronic. They've actually responded pretty well to stuff like Xenakis/Electroacoustic stuff I've sent them.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

fbjim said:


> What I do find interesting is that the uh, young people I know into music past a general pop music level are into weird challenging music, it's just not classical. It's stuff like noise records and "unfriendly" electronic. They've actually responded pretty well to stuff like Xenakis/Electroacoustic stuff I've sent them.


This has been my experience as well. I've played works like Crumb's _Black Angels_ (or, rather, the first few moments of it) for dozens or maybe by now hundreds of students over the past 15 or so years, and the only students who don't respond basically positively are a minority of the ones who are already into classical music.

Students in a classroom are a little easier to read than strangers on a message board, and of course most people here are far more sophisticated in thought and expression than most teenagers. But at least among young people, I'd hypothesize that there is a strong correlation between assuming classical music is boring and being pleasantly surprised by "modern" music, and an equally strong one between valuing classical music for elements like prettiness and elegance and being unpleasantly shocked by "modern" music.


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

progmatist said:


> Sometimes it is a competition. The Van Cliburn International Piano Competition for example.


Anyone who's been lurking at Talkclassical for five minutes knows that it's a competition.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

GraemeG said:


> It was his own score to Buster Keaton's "The General". Brilliant bit of work. I think someone posted it on YouTube - the film with his soundtrack.


I see. Sounds similar to the score of _Dracula_ by Philip Glass:


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