# C.P.E. Bach's Influence on Beethoven



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Certain individual(s) on this forum have repeatedly claimed for years with terms such as "dramatic continuity", "dramatic coherence" (which I find rather "vague") that C.P.E. Bach as a composer had very profound influence on Beethoven.

So I've tried to look for sources that corroborate with their claims, but I've never found any.

There are some examples of "expressions" in C.P.E. Bach these individual(s) cite to support their claims, but to me they just seem to be "taken out of context" (the alleged "connections" also seem "vague"), and they do not discuss how those expressions of C.P.E. Bach were particularly "proto-Beethovenian" or "special for his time" by comparing with those of C.P.E. Bach's contemporaries and also Beethoven's.

I actually think that C.P.E. Bach's "influence" as a composer on the later composers is rather overrated.
Yes, there are anecdotes about Mozart calling him "the father", but all those quotes about how much Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven admired him as a composer should be taken with a bit of grain of salt, -because they didn't always admire him for his compositions, but also his keyboard-playing pedagogy.

"Bach was also an influential pedagogue, writing the ever influential "Essay on the true art of playing keyboard instruments", which would be studied by Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, among others."
wiki/Carl_Philipp_Emanuel_Bach

Mozart said that his favorite of the Lutheran kapellmeisters was G. Benda -C.P.E. Bach, by contrast, wrote no opera, and his influence on Mozart was quite limited in this regard. His contribution to vocal music (aside from a couple of oratorios and a magnificat) is quite meager in comparison to the major vocal music composers.

Also, I find J. Christian Bach's contribution to certain areas such as concertos just as impressive as his. 
ex. W C70 , W C73 , W C69, etc.
Emanuel, on the other hand, like his Baroque predecessors, self-plagiarized quite a lot (transcribing the same exact concertos for different solo instruments). 
ex. Wq.26/Wq.166/Wq.170, Wq.28/Wq.167/Wq.171, Wq.29/Wq.168/Wq.172, etc.
His use of counterpoint (Sicut erat in principio, Wq.215; which just sounds "contrived", long-winded", and lacks "fluidity") also seems generally less interesting than Christian's (Dona eis requiem, W E12).
Aside from the way to open the slow movement of C major Wq.182 No.3, I really don't find C.P.E. Bach's expressions strikingly "proto-Beethovenian".

So what are some examples of "hard evidence" that C.P.E. Bach was not just a minor composer in terms of influence on Beethoven? Was he any more significant than Clementi and Knecht in terms of influence on Beethoven? If so, how?






"In his edition of Schindler ' s biography of Beethoven , Moscheles writes : Among all the masters who have written for pianoforte , Beethoven assigned to Clementi the very foremost rank." 
< Muzio Clementi and His Sonatas Surviving as Solo Piano Works / Alice Eugene Tighe · 1964 / P.107 >

This one was written during C.P.E. Bach's lifetime, 1783:




I. Allegretto - Andante pastorale - Allegretto - Villanella grazioso, un poco adagio : 00:00
II. Tempo mederno (Allegretto) : 09:40
III. Allegro molto : 12:44
IV. Tempo mederno (Allegro molto) : 18:38
V. L´inno con variazioni - Andantino -Coro : Allegro con brio - Andantino : 20:59

There's actually evidence Beethoven studied Knecht's work.
"Vollständige Orgelschule (Leipzig, 1795-1798/1989) - Ludwig van Beethoven owned a copy of this work"

Knecht symphony: 0:57
Beethoven Op.125/i: 3:27

Knecht symphony: 12:20
Beethoven Op.67/iii: 22:00

also, notice the "continuity":
12:30 , 18:30 , 20:50
and "recalling of themes" across movements in the Knecht symphony:
0:00 , 20:04 , 0:58 , 9:40


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## Dima (Oct 3, 2016)

CPE Bach previsioned music style that will dominate in future.
The principles of Beethoven's compositions already heard in CPE BACH works. It is not only the direct influence, Beethoven was more influenced by his contemporaries - but as one of the most genius composers, CPE BACH prevision the way the music will go even after Beethoven.

Examples of prevision Beethoven music from CPE Bach:


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

It's clear that Beethoven held Emanuel Bach in high regard as a composer. He once said, "Of Emanuel Bach's pianoforte works I have only a few things, yet a few by that true artist serve not only for high enjoyment but also for study." He later requested in a letter to a friend, "I should like to have all the works of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, all that you actually publish." An analysis of the piano sonatas of Bach and Beethoven demonstrates some similarities and shows that several pre-Romantic characteristics in Beethoven's sonatas, although commonly taught to be innovations of Beethoven, were found earlier in the sonatas of Emanuel Bach.

For example, one distinguishing characteristic of Beethoven's piano sonatas was his blending of sonata and fantasia styles into a single work, especially in his _Sonata quasi una fantasia_, Op. 27, No. 2. It's usually taught (e.g. by Jonathan Biss, Exploring Beethoven's Piano Sonatas) that up until Beethoven, merging structured sonata and free-flowing fantasia into a single, coherent unit was unheard of. But this method of meshing sonata and fantasy into a single unit was also implemented by Emanuel Bach. His Keyboard Sonata in G Minor, Wq. 65/17 alternates between unmeasured fantasia style (marked cadenza) and conventional sonata style (in 2/4 time), all integrated into a through-composed sonata form.

A second characteristic that is commonly taught to be invented by Beethoven is the way the movements of his sonatas flow seamlessly from one to the next. Biss continues in the same lecture I referred to above, "But the real innovation in Op. 27 No. 1 is that there are no breaks between the movements. . . . This is really unheard of." Interestingly, this very device was utilized over a half century earlier by Emanuel Bach, including in the sonata just mentioned. As with the blending of fantasy and sonata, removing the breaks between movements demonstrates a tinkering with traditional forms, a common tendency of composers in both _empfindsamer Stil_ and Romanticism.

A third element of Romanticism in Beethoven's sonatas is his interrupting of phrases, often with _subito pianos_. This can be seen in the opening of the "Pathetique" Sonata. In another lecture, Biss states that this characteristic was also invented by Beethoven: "The power of the subito piano comes from the feeling of the natural trajectory of the phrase being interrupted, of having the rug pulled out from under you. Unsurprisingly, Beethoven absolutely loved doing this. I mean, he really practically invented the idea". Again, interrupting phrases in this way was used before Beethoven by Emanuel Bach. He implements this especially in the opening of his Keyboard Sonata in B Minor, Wq. 49/6, using both broken-off phrases and _subito pianos_. Like Beethoven, Emanuel Bach does not merely use this device for dramatic effect, but proceeds to develop the broken-off phrases as any other motive would be developed in sonata-allegro form. Compare the opening of Emanuel Bach's Sonata in B Minor with the opening of Beethoven's "Pathetique". Besides the extreme dynamic changes and interrupted phrases, there are other uncanny similarities in the openings of these two sonatas: the blending of fantasia and sonata styles, the melodramatic pauses and fermatas, and the stark contrasts between dense, powerful chords and light, suspenseful dotted rhythms.

According to David Schulenberg, the high dramatic tension of the retransitions in Emanuel Bach's da capo arias and keyboard concertos also anticipates that of Beethoven's retransitions. One can see this in the first movement of his Concerto in G Minor, Wq. 6. The retransition in this movement consists of passages alternating between the strings and the keyboard soloist, stating sharply contrasting material. Over the course of the passage (mm. 212-54), their entries grow shorter and more urgent, leading to a climactic keyboard solo that modulates back to the tonic. (See Schulenberg, The Music of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, 51-52.)

I think it's fair to say that Emanuel Bach's _empfindsamer Stil_ anticipates Beethoven's style in several of its pre-Romantic qualities. Taking into consideration the fact that Beethoven studied and revered Emanuel Bach's works, one could plausibly conjecture that Emanuel Bach's _empfindsamer Stil_ directly inspired Beethoven's style.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Dima said:


> CPE Bach previsioned music style that will dominate in future.
> The principles of Beethoven's compositions already heard in CPE BACH works. It is not only the direct influence, Beethoven was more influenced by his contemporaries - but as one of the most genius composers, CPE BACH prevision the way the music will go even after Beethoven.
> Examples of prevision Beethoven music from CPE Bach:


Ok. But we must also consider: 
Rondo in C Minor, Wq. 59/4 was published in 1785,
Rondo in D minor, H.290 was published in 1787,
Rondo in E-flat major, H.288 was published in 1786.

This was written in 1777 and published in 1779:




and this was published in 1785:





The same can be said about Fantasie in F sharp minor, Wq.67 "C.P.E. Bachs Empfindungen" (1787), which I find a bit "overrated" about its "proto-Romantic" tendencies. That one was also published in the same year (1787) as Mozart's A minor K.511.

I think we have to consider the time and context in which the composers wrote their works;
Imagine this was composed/published in the 1770s, not 1817, -doesn't it seem like it was "way ahead of its time"?:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> It's clear that Beethoven held Emanuel Bach in high regard as a composer. He once said, "Of Emanuel Bach's pianoforte works I have only a few things, yet a few by that true artist serve not only for high enjoyment but also for study." He later requested in a letter to a friend, "I should like to have all the works of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, all that you actually publish." An analysis of the piano sonatas of Bach and Beethoven demonstrates some similarities and shows that several pre-Romantic characteristics in Beethoven's sonatas, although commonly taught to be innovations of Beethoven, were found earlier in the sonatas of Emanuel Bach.


It's certainly wrong to say Beethoven never cared for C.P.E. Bach. But still, C.P.E. (like Clementi and Knecht) was to him a "minor composer" as a source of inspiration and influence, I think.

"In his edition of Schindler ' s biography of Beethoven , Moscheles writes : Among all the masters who have written for pianoforte , Beethoven assigned to Clementi the very foremost rank."
< Muzio Clementi and His Sonatas Surviving as Solo Piano Works / Alice Eugene Tighe · 1964 / P.107 >


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> A third element of Romanticism in Beethoven's sonatas is his interrupting of phrases, often with _subito pianos_. This can be seen in the opening of the "Pathetique" Sonata. In another lecture, Biss states that this characteristic was also invented by Beethoven: "The power of the subito piano comes from the feeling of the natural trajectory of the phrase being interrupted, of having the rug pulled out from under you. Unsurprisingly, Beethoven absolutely loved doing this. I mean, he really practically invented the idea". Again, interrupting phrases in this way was used before Beethoven by Emanuel Bach. He implements this especially in the opening of his Keyboard Sonata in B Minor, Wq. 49/6, using both broken-off phrases and _subito pianos_. ....


I certainly think that C.P.E. Bach (1714~1788) was instrumental in the development of Classical forms to some extent, but then, C.W. Gluck (1714~1787) at the time was also reforming opera in a similar manner, (even Fidelio's plot is said to be modeled on Gluck's Orfeo ed Euridice). Mozart, in his K.475/K.457, seems to draw inspiration not only from instrumental music, but also opera and vocal music. One-movement Sonata Cycle
So it's doubtful how much of this idea of "continuity" comes from C.P.E. Bach. Was Knecht conscious of the work of C.P.E. Bach when he wrote his "Le portrait musical de la nature" (1783)?. To what extent was C.P.E. Bach responsible for the creation/invention of the idea?
https://www.talkclassical.com/54405-haydn-muscular-mozart-24.html#post2037575

In other threads, I also wrote that:

"10-minute symphonies or concertos with-
movements that transition into the next movements (without proper resolution)
OR
movements with thematic resemblances
-weren't uncommon at the time. Even Mozart's 23rd, 26th, 32nd contain them.

These practices exercised in Mozart K.243, for instance-
smooth transition across movements:








thematic resemblances across movements;








-were originated from the Salzburg Catholic music tradition (Biber, Eberlin, Adlgasser, L. Mozart, etc), not C.P.E. Bach."


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## Dima (Oct 3, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> Ok. But we must also consider:
> Rondo in C Minor, Wq. 59/4 was published in 1785,
> Rondo in D minor, H.290 was published in 1787,
> Rondo in E-flat major, H.288 was published in 1786.
> ...


Beethoven was about 15 years old when these works were published - good time for learning music including works of CPE Bach.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The idea to "write music with feelings" wasn't something uncommon at the time. J.M. Kraus expressed (verbally) something to the effect when he wrote his requiem and symphonies, I believe.
And I think the reason why C.P.E. sounds "capricious in feel" has more to do him being a "post-Baroque" composer rather than a "Rococo" one.









"The Adagio and Fugue in G minor for Strings (1760) is one of Franz Xaver Richter's symphonies, which features the learned style in 18th century orchestral works. His experience in churches also contributes to his sophisticated contrapuntal style in his orchestral works. The first movement begins with the tonic key, G minor, entitled Adagio and fugue, and it distinguishes from later sonata form by Haydn and Mozart. The opening material is quite different from the primary theme in symphonies by Mozart and Haydn. First, the opening material is not highly melodically recognizable and easy to grasp for the audience. One could call it primary key area instead of the primary theme. It is in highly learned style with a lot of sequential passages. ... As Jochen Reutter acclaims, Franz Xaver Richter's compositional idiom "changed from a late Baroque sound to a tonal language which reached the threshold of the Classical style. He was influenced by the 18th-century learned style and he adapted the Mannheim symphonic style with his own differentiated instrumentation." Also according to Reutter, "his [Richter's] works from this period include such conservative traits as fugal techniques, Baroque sequences and the frequent use of minor tonality." As shown in this work Adagio and Fugue in G minor for Strings, the first movement is almost entirely based on various kinds of sequences and fugal style. This early symphony makes an intriguing subject for a scholarly study of early symphonies."


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> He later requested in a letter to a friend, *"I should like to have all the works of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, all that you actually publish."*


Are you sure that was really said by Beethoven, and not someone else like:

"Leopold Mozart to J. C. I. Breitkopf, Leipzig​[Salzburg, 6 October 1775]​As I decided some time ago to have some of my son's compositions printed, I should like you to let me know as soon as possible whether you would like to publish some of them, that is to say, symphonies, quartets, trios, sonatas for violin and violoncello, even solo sonatas for violin or clavier sonatas. In regard to the latter perhaps you would like to print clavier sonatas in the same style as those of Carl Philipp Emnauel Bach 'mit veränderten Reprisen'? These were printed by Georg Ludwig Winter in Berlin, and this type of sonata is very popular. I must ask you again to let me know as soon as possible and, what is more, on what conditions you would undertake to publish them, so that we may not engage in a long correspondence about a trifling business and so that, if nothing comes of my suggestion, I may apply to some other firm. *I shall be very grateful if you will send me a list of all the works of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach which you can supply.*
Your obedient servant
LEOPOLD MOZART"​< The Letters of Mozart and his Family / Emily Anderson, ‎Stanley Sadie · 2016 / P.265 >


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> Are you sure that was really said by Beethoven...


The request by Beethoven for the works of Emanuel Bach is from a letter to Breitkopf & Härtel dated 15 October 1810 (nebstbey mögte ich alle Werke von Karl Philip Emanuel Bach, die ja alle bey ihnen verlegt worden.). 15 months later, in January 1812 Beethoven again asked his friend for Emanuel's works, "Surely you can make me a gift of the things by C.P. Emanuel Bach, for they must be rotting with you." (die C.p. Emanuel Bachs sachen, könnten mir wohl einmal schenken, sie vermodern ihnen doch.)


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## CarlHaydn284 (Jul 12, 2020)

A source for this letter please. May you send a link?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

CarlHaydn284 said:


> A source for this letter please. May you send a link?


https://brieftext.beethoven.de/henle/letters/b0474.phtml


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Adding a couple of things to Rick Riekert's fine exposition above: One might note the use of dramatic recitative passages within sonata movements, as in the slow movement of Wq. 48#1, where the recitatives are played forte and the surrounding passages marked piano. And, as I've noted before, there are his experiments with cyclic thematic unity to consider.

By the way Hammered, remember a few days ago when you asked me about Beethoven's requests for CPE Bach scores? I said I had previously posted the citations for two such letters but that I wasn't interested in looking them up again? Well the one Rick cites above is one of them. There is another to be found as well.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

EdwardBast said:


> And, as I've noted before, there are his experiments with cyclic thematic unity to consider.


Btw, there's no formally established criterion or definition for "cyclic thematic unity" or "cyclic form".

https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...-cyclic-form/EF586221A63CED34F6A22761783653D0
"The very term 'cyclic form' is confusing. Hans Keller was exaggerating only a little when he described it as 'one of the most senseless technical terms in the rich history of musicological nonsense'. In fact, it is almost obligatory for commentators to offer some brief apology for their continued use of the term. Charles Rosen, for instance, states that '"cyclical form" is an ambiguous as well as a vague term', whilst James Webster, in his influential study of Haydn's 'Farewell' Symphony, prefaces his text with a disclaimer on the unsuitability of the terms 'cyclic' and 'through-composed', before going on to use them nevertheless." -Benedict Taylor


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> According to David Schulenberg, the high dramatic tension of the retransitions in Emanuel Bach's da capo arias and keyboard concertos also anticipates that of Beethoven's retransitions. One can see this in the first movement of his Concerto in G Minor, Wq. 6. The retransition in this movement consists of passages alternating between the strings and the keyboard soloist, stating sharply contrasting material. Over the course of the passage (mm. 212-54), their entries grow shorter and more urgent, leading to a climactic keyboard solo that modulates back to the tonic. (See Schulenberg, The Music of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, 51-52.)


Maybe David Schulenberg was exaggerating to promote C.P.E. Bach, like how Donald Francis Tovey did with Haydn. https://www.talkclassical.com/54405-haydn-muscular-mozart-23.html#post2036127 (the G minor concerto, Wq.6 is actually one of my favorite works by C.P.E.; it reminds me of Vivaldi more than anything by Beethoven.)
Looking at the kind of books he published, such as "The Music of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach", 
I can see that he's an avid connoisseur of the music of Bach and his sons, especially C.P.E. Bach.
I also get your and Ed's explanations about "cyclic stuff" or whatever, -but it's not like C.P.E. was the only guy doing that "stuff" at the time. https://www.talkclassical.com/54405-haydn-muscular-mozart-24.html#post2037575
(I mean, face it. Knecht is just _far more interesting_ in terms of influence on Beethoven.)


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*Wilhelm Friedemann Bach Sinfonia for strings in F major "Dissonant", F. 67 (circa. 1735-1740)*

"The symphonic form as it is now known was nascent. W.F. Bach already begins to break away from the Baroque tendency to keep a continuous flow of the same tempo and mood within a given movement in this sinfonia, which is sometimes listed as his Symphony No. 1. (It is the first published in a collection of the five symphonies left from the Dresden years.) The opening movement is marked Vivace. It starts in a straightforward manner in longer note values that make the music seem marked and heavy. The tonal bottom falls out when the unison string melody unexpectedly drops to a note that is not in the main key and the tempo holds for a second or two. Then the perceived tempo suddenly increases to a vivace. Such odd shifts of key and tempo occur irregularly throughout the movement, surprising the listener. Many in Bach's audience would have thought these effects bizarre. The slow movement, an Andante, has the quality of a tender operatic love aria and is fairly expansive in proportions. Its mood is calm and ardent and it could be a serenade. The next movement, Allegro, is a fast romp that would be taken as a concluding movement, but the true last movement are two graceful minuets."
https://www.allmusic.com/compositio...-in-f-major-dissonant-f-67-br-c2-mc0002658701


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