# Career in Classical Music WITHOUT University Degree???



## Denerah Bathory

Or at least an opportunity to receive lessons from a professional (with credentials and good reputation) that could help me get into the big circles, and thus giving me a chance to rise in the scene.

Let me clarify a few things:
1) I did pass auditions for a BA in Music back in 2012, but didn't do good with ear-training and "singing back" notes, so I switched program and then dropped out 2 years later due to personal health issues.
2) I played piano to an advanced level, and have a certificate for RCM Theory Examination (I passed with 94%)
3) basically, I have credentials and a history with Academia, but fate took another turn

So it's not like I'm coming from nowhere. I studied orchestration books on my own, studied full scores, and "could play" piano but I don't do so much anymore and I have no intention of being a concert pianist.

So why can't I get taught directly by a professional how to Conduct an orchestra and learn actual Orchestration? I find every single orchestra that has a "lesson program" gears their education to children and with teaching the performance of a particular instrument, but never teach "Conducting" or "Harmony".

I want to be a conductor, and I believe I should be able to get an opportunity without a degree because there was--a time--when we didn't have these rigid gatekeeping methods barring talent from opportunity (aka 18th and 19th centuries...Wagner certainly couldn't play an instrument and certainly didn't have a PhD in music)

There is no music program in my hometown anymore, and I can't afford it anyway. I live with a disability pension from Ontario health care support programs, and so I figure "if I'm gonna get a job, it's gonna be something I enjoy, there's no point being miserable at Macdonalds or something".

I do feel that "diplomas" are a form of strict elitist gatekeeping in music, especially because now with the internet anybody can find dozens and hundreds of scores, textbooks, manuals, and even tutorials for free sometimes, and have just as much if not more insight than the "professionals". 

So is there a way for me to get into this without the usual route? Because that option isn't available, and I do not want to have to do it through an instrument.


----------



## mikeh375

I'm sure you would be able to find someone willing to give private lessons. You mentioned online resources so a quick search yielded this among many others. Is this not something you could go for?
Conducting lessons for online tuition

Have you tried networking a little, by contacting your local bands to see if they might be interested? At the very least, you might be able to sit-in on rehearsals and gain some valuable insights into rehearsal techniques and help develop your ear whilst following scores. Learning orchestration like all aspects of music, is in part down to how much effort you put into it yourself. I see you've already done some orchestration study. I believe much can be learnt from focused, targeted score study and listening, in fact I'd go so far as to say orchestration's basic formulae and principles are something that one can learn and understand to a fair degree (no pun intended), without much in the way of professional teaching if you have the correct mindset, wits and application for it. That said there will doubtless be good orchestration teachers online too who can guide and assess work. BTW, those very same local bands might be willing to do a run through of one of your pieces conducted by you, (perhaps one cleverly dedicated to them), or be willing to try out a few snippets of 'test' orchestration.

Believing you should have an opportunity to conduct without some sort of degree, diploma or even experience is not going to chime well, certainly with professional and much amateur reality and expectation unfortunately. Even amateur bands can quite rightly insist on a high standard from their conductors. There are many very gifted students passing through music school as conductors every year, all graduating fully armed after years of study and practice, with a standard of technical proficiency and a developed musicianship considered a bare minimum in the profession in order to make good music. This is what studying for, and achieveing a degree/diploma bestows on a student and every one of them will be hoping to become established or at least able to work. Few will make it to the very top or even to some of the lower tiers in a profession where not only are vacancies hard to come by, but personality too plays a (perhaps _the_) major role.

If you stand up in front of an orchestra only half-cocked technically and musically speaking, or are not so personally engaging, they will know in a matter of minutes whether you are up to the job or not. This will seriously undermine you. So those "gatekeeping" degrees you consider "elitist" are vital not only for your own musical development and confidence, but as reassurance and provenance that you have a basic right to be on that podium in front of players who have studied and practiced for many years, and are intending to tell them how to play. Now you can call the path to acquiring that right to the podium elitist gatekeeping if you wish, I call it professionalism.

Sorry to be a little negative, but ranting the way you have about how the profession regulates the high standards it needs is not going to help you at all if you are serious. However if you can show great musicianship, have vision, orchestral know-how and effective rehearsal techniques in order to achieve what you want to hear, along with an affable, engaging personality, then you could with a little luck possibly bypass the college route. You would need to put yourself 'out there' as best you can and seriously network and hunt for opportunity, but not before you have a good technique behind you. This is because your competitors for the job (especially one that comes with a salary), will almost certainly be very well qualified. You never know, an opportunity might present itself but you will have to be ready for it as indeed Bernstein famously was. Sorry to hear about your disability, concerning that, would you be able to travel as that may well increase your chance of success?


----------



## bagpipers

Although not impossible by any means but very very hard to have a higher level career in classical music without the 'Doctorate'
I have a friend who owns a music school mainly for children and lower level adult amateurs and loves what he does and has a bachelor's from Queens College NY in theory.
I have another friend with a bachelor's in theory & Comp and has an IQ of 162 but has never broken through in music.He could give children piano lessons but does not want to teach.

It is really hard without a Doctorate to make it in classical music other than low level teaching,not impossible but very hard.
I know Curtis used to offer Coursera ,a online music program,I don't know if it's still offered or not.
It does not hurt to explore what's out there!


----------



## Philidor

Denerah Bathory said:


> Wagner certainly couldn't play an instrument


Of course Wagner played the piano. He was Kapellmeister in Riga and had to study with the singers from times to time.

Besides, he meavily used the piano when composing.


mikeh375 said:


> If you stand up in front of an orchestra only half-cocked technically and musically speaking, or are not so personally engaging, they will know in a matter of minutes whether you are up to the job or not.


That's exactly the point. Why should orchestral musicians follow someone who obviously knows less than themselves?


----------



## mikeh375

Philidor said:


> That's exactly the point. Why should orchestral musicians follow someone who obviously knows less then themselves?


Yep, and a few players in any orchestra probably have batons in their bags, waiting to pounce on any opportunity to get onto the podium..........


----------



## Denerah Bathory

Philidor said:


> Of course Wagner played the piano. He was Kapellmeister in Riga and had to study with the singers from times to time.
> 
> Besides, he meavily used the piano when composing.
> 
> That's exactly the point. Why should orchestral musicians follow someone who obviously knows less than themselves?


I'm pretty sure Wagner admitted himself, in his Mein Leben, that he could barely play full pieces at the piano, certainly not the left and right hand combined. Using the piano to compose is not the same as playing to the level of say, Martha Argerich. For all we know he could've simply hammered out the Ride of the Valkyries motif with index finger striking every note, on one hand only. No matter, that has nothing to do with Orchestration and hence Wagner's genius at focusing solely on Dramatic meaning rather than superfluous virtuosity like many composers who are "too focused" on their choice instrument (Chopin, Liszt, Paganini, etc.)

We can say that for Wagner music is a means to a higher end, and even Bach isn't superfluous despite his pieces being complicated: his contrapuntal works (Well Tempered Klavier) are only as complex as it is for 10 fingers to play 3-4 themes at once!

And let me clarify: "formal education" doesn't mean they know more or are more skilled than someone who is "self-taught", which is the point I was trying to make--that "university" isn't the only path especially in today's age where you can literally "google" anything and teach oneself. Obviously, this highly-bureaucratic hierarchy didn't exist in Mozart or Beethoven's time, and certainly not Bach's where it was more important to be either Protestant or Catholic as "credential".


----------



## mbhaub

Everyone wants to conduct. But unless you have the financial banking to hire your own orchestra to do your bidding (like Beecham and others) you have to pay your dues. No short cuts. You absolutely must have the skill and there's a lot more to conducting that waving your arms around. There are many, many wanna-be conductors with great skill and training behind them and they can't get conducting gigs. It's a very competitive field. I know very few conductors with Doctorates actually; but they do have conservatory training and the best ones have considerable experience in the opera pit.


----------



## Vasks

Denerah Bathory said:


> I did pass auditions for a BA in Music back in 2012, but didn't do good with ear-training and "singing back" notes


This is a serious drawback. A conductor must have a great "ear"


----------



## Philidor

Denerah Bathory said:


> I'm pretty sure Wagner admitted himself, in his Mein Leben, that he could barely play full pieces at the piano, certainly not the left and right hand combined. Using the piano to compose is not the same as playing to the level of say, Martha Argerich. For all we know he could've simply hammered out the Ride of the Valkyries motif with index finger striking every note, on one hand only. No matter, that has nothing to do with Orchestration and hence Wagner's genius at focusing solely on Dramatic meaning rather than superfluous virtuosity like many composers who are "too focused" on their choice instrument (Chopin, Liszt, Paganini, etc.)


I am not sure whether the complexity of the discussion is adequate to the complexity of its subject.

Of course Wagner as a pianist was not on eye's level with Martha Argerich. But Bernstein, Karajan, Gergiev, Jansons e tutti quanti were not on the level of Martha Argerich. (Even if Bernstein performed Rhapsody in blue and Ravel's Concerto G major in publc.)

There is something in between, between "Can't play the piano" and "Playing on Argerich's level". Kapellmeisters need to play prima vista very well. Wagner certainly did.

And for composing the Meistersinger you need far more than playing the Valkyries motif with the index finger.

As you are saying that you have (almost) all abilities to conduct, I am sure that you will be in position to understand these arguments.


Denerah Bathiory said:


> We can say that for Wagner music is a means to a higher end, and even Bach isn't superfluous despite his pieces being complicated: his contrapuntal works (Well Tempered Klavier) are only as complex as it is for 10 fingers to play 3-4 themes at once!


I think the preludes in D-flat major, D major and G major from WTC I are not exactly easy and non-complex, even if they are just two-part settings. Nothing for the first three years of piano playing imho, unless you are Evgeny Kissin.


----------



## Denerah Bathory

mikeh375 said:


> I'm sure you would be able to find someone willing to give private lessons. You mentioned online resources so a quick search yielded this among many others. Is this not something you could go for?
> Conducting lessons for online tuition
> 
> Have you tried networking a little, by contacting your local bands to see if they might be interested? At the very least, you might be able to sit-in on rehearsals and gain some valuable insights into rehearsal techniques and help develop your ear whilst following scores. Learning orchestration like all aspects of music, is in part down to how much effort you put into it yourself. I see you've already done some orchestration study. I believe much can be learnt from focused, targeted score study and listening, in fact I'd go so far as to say orchestration's basic formulae and principles are something that one can learn and understand to a fair degree (no pun intended), without much in the way of professional teaching if you have the correct mindset, wits and application for it. That said there will doubtless be good orchestration teachers online too who can guide and assess work. BTW, those very same local bands might be willing to do a run through of one of your pieces conducted by you, (perhaps one cleverly dedicated to them), or be willing to try out a few snippets of 'test' orchestration.
> 
> Believing you should have an opportunity to conduct without some sort of degree, diploma or even experience is not going to chime well, certainly with professional and much amateur reality and expectation unfortunately. Even amateur bands can quite rightly insist on a high standard from their conductors. There are many very gifted students passing through music school as conductors every year, all graduating fully armed after years of study and practice, with a standard of technical proficiency and a developed musicianship considered a bare minimum in the profession in order to make good music. This is what studying for, and achieveing a degree/diploma bestows on a student and every one of them will be hoping to become established or at least able to work. Few will make it to the very top or even to some of the lower tiers in a profession where not only are vacancies hard to come by, but personality too plays a (perhaps _the_) major role.
> 
> If you stand up in front of an orchestra only half-cocked technically and musically speaking, or are not so personally engaging, they will know in a matter of minutes whether you are up to the job or not. This will seriously undermine you. So those "gatekeeping" degrees you consider "elitist" are vital not only for your own musical development and confidence, but as reassurance and provenance that you have a basic right to be on that podium in front of players who have studied and practiced for many years, and are intending to tell them how to play. Now you can call the path to acquiring that right to the podium elitist gatekeeping if you wish, I call it professionalism.
> 
> Sorry to be a little negative, but ranting the way you have about how the profession regulates the high standards it needs is not going to help you at all if you are serious. However if you can show great musicianship, have vision, orchestral know-how and effective rehearsal techniques in order to achieve what you want to hear, along with an affable, engaging personality, then you could with a little luck possibly bypass the college route. You would need to put yourself 'out there' as best you can and seriously network and hunt for opportunity, but not before you have a good technique behind you. This is because your competitors for the job (especially one that comes with a salary), will almost certainly be very well qualified. You never know, an opportunity might present itself but you will have to be ready for it as indeed Bernstein famously was. Sorry to hear about your disability, concerning that, would you be able to travel as that may well increase your chance of success?


First, many thanks for the advice and the link, this is much appreciated. I will take a closer look right now as it is morning in this part of the world.

I wasn't trying to sound entitled or pretentious, I am in fact quite humble and honest with myself. Let me phrase it like this:

I certainly agree with having standards and "requirements" to ensure quality performance and proliferation/nurturing of talent, skill, knowledge and ability. That being said, it seems there is always a point where the "rules" become detrimental when obsessively-worshipped as ultimate end in itself--in this case, what was once a necessary and logical curriculum to cover all aspects of Classical Music, has become a bureaucratic hierarchy where the "next Beethoven" would be rejected merely on the grounds of being a janitor's son who didn't have money to get a fancy piece of paper at a prestigious university. 

What once existed as a noble institution to genuinely transmit wisdom to the next generation has become tyranical in charging exorbitant tuition fees, and having the nerve to blacklist and reject anyone who hasn't learned from them, despite there being many different ways to learn (actually, psychologically-speaking too) and many different paths to Knowledge.

For instance, I can spend hours reading books, dealing with words, but I cannot tolerate 10 minutes of a Youtube video or podcast or Zoom lecture--because "digital video" format irks me! Whereas some (most millenials today) have no patience for books and want to learn everything through Youtube tutorials (honestly, I always find I'm skipping 10 minute chunks to get the essentials whereas books are efficient and dutifully bound to the subject matter, they don't ask you to "like and subscribe" either!)

I wrote an essay in a recent publication of mine about the "classical schools of antiquity" where I praise the Greek academies and the small scale "mentor and pupil" method as seen in Europe throughout the 17th - 19th century as a more authentic manner of transmitting cultural heritage, wisdom, and values, and worldview. I don't think Stravinsky would've been as great had he been one of 100 in a large stuffy classroom, instead of learning from Rimsky-Korsakov in what many consider today "unprofessional" simply due to there being no "accredited" status or some other "fancy big word" used today to justify the most absurd notions of "worth". 

I am not merely ranting either: I am like my favorite composer, Richard Wagner. There is always a "philosophy" behind everything I say and do. I am not merely concerned with "practical means as they are" but always try to promote a vision of a world AS IT OUGHT TO BE! 

This is necessary as context also in the great operatic work that is our life on earth.
And if a professional orchestra cannot appreciate my noble insight then they can go to hell!


----------



## Denerah Bathory

mbhaub said:


> Everyone wants to conduct. But unless you have the financial banking to hire your own orchestra to do your bidding (like Beecham and others) you have to pay your dues. No short cuts. You absolutely must have the skill and there's a lot more to conducting that waving your arms around. There are many, many wanna-be conductors with great skill and training behind them and they can't get conducting gigs. It's a very competitive field. I know very few conductors with Doctorates actually; but they do have conservatory training and the best ones have considerable experience in the opera pit.


This is not "wishful" thinking or a mere fantasy of mine. I actually am quite introverted and would never want to be a concert pianist or leading-role tenor or rockstar singer (had that been the path I had taken)--however when I envision an orchestra and "channel" the music through my body, I lose sense of "myself" as an individual and become a vehicle for this greater force, and hence my introverted self dissolves in epic melodies.

See, I used to play piano 5-7 hours a day for 5 years straight! I wanted to be like Keith Emerson at the time, in a prog band, then I got deeper into classical music. Thing is, fine when I'm composing by myself, but I never liked playing in front of a live audience. I seldom play piano these days, and since I always preferred writing my own music the instrument was always just a means to an end for me--I'm not one of those musicians who have a special connection to their instrument, like Tori Amos for instance. For me, it wouldn't matter if I learned violin, guitar, or anything else, playing instruments are to assist in composing melodic and harmonic content and nothing more.

I tried learning guitar a couple years ago, and just can't connect to it. I also find myself not-aesthetic to watch playing piano. However, I always felt music in very physical and visual ways, and would spend hours imagining gestures or scenes to accompany musical pieces (kinda like choreographed theater or even simply a landscape or storyline). 

I have a universal approach, that gets "lost" when I focus on particular technique. I feel that despite all my efforts I failed at being a "musician" and yet I can compose music without even sitting at a piano. See, I feel that when "all else fails" and Something Actually Works--that's a calling of a religious order!


----------



## mikeh375

Denerah Bathory said:


> First, many thanks for the advice and the link, this is much appreciated. I will take a closer look right now as it is morning in this part of the world.
> 
> I wasn't trying to sound entitled or pretentious, I am in fact quite humble and honest with myself. Let me phrase it like this:
> 
> I certainly agree with having standards and "requirements" to ensure quality performance and proliferation/nurturing of talent, skill, knowledge and ability. That being said, it seems there is always a point where the "rules" become detrimental when obsessively-worshipped as ultimate end in itself--in this case, what was once a necessary and logical curriculum to cover all aspects of Classical Music, has become a bureaucratic hierarchy where the "next Beethoven" would be rejected merely on the grounds of being a janitor's son who didn't have money to get a fancy piece of paper at a prestigious university.
> 
> What once existed as a noble institution to genuinely transmit wisdom to the next generation has become tyranical in charging exorbitant tuition fees, and having the nerve to blacklist and reject anyone who hasn't learned from them, despite there being many different ways to learn (actually, psychologically-speaking too) and many different paths to Knowledge.
> 
> For instance, I can spend hours reading books, dealing with words, but I cannot tolerate 10 minutes of a Youtube video or podcast or Zoom lecture--because "digital video" format irks me! Whereas some (most millenials today) have no patience for books and want to learn everything through Youtube tutorials (honestly, I always find I'm skipping 10 minute chunks to get the essentials whereas books are efficient and dutifully bound to the subject matter, they don't ask you to "like and subscribe" either!)
> 
> I wrote an essay in a recent publication of mine about the "classical schools of antiquity" where I praise the Greek academies and the small scale "mentor and pupil" method as seen in Europe throughout the 17th - 19th century as a more authentic manner of transmitting cultural heritage, wisdom, and values, and worldview. I don't think Stravinsky would've been as great had he been one of 100 in a large stuffy classroom, instead of learning from Rimsky-Korsakov in what many consider today "unprofessional" simply due to there being no "accredited" status or some other "fancy big word" used today to justify the most absurd notions of "worth".
> 
> I am not merely ranting either: I am like my favorite composer, Richard Wagner. There is always a "philosophy" behind everything I say and do. I am not merely concerned with "practical means as they are" but always try to promote a vision of a world AS IT OUGHT TO BE!
> 
> This is necessary as context also in the great operatic work that is our life on earth.
> And if a professional orchestra cannot appreciate my noble insight then they can go to hell!


I don't recognise nor agree with any of the above Denerah. I do know that if you want others to hear your vision you'll need to have mastered a practical underpinning to cohere it and do it any form of justice. If I'm not mistaken, even priests who like you, experience religious calling - although one slightly more noble in character than for composing and conducting - have to study theology and philosophy for around 5-6 years before becoming ordained. So religious calling or not, my advice would be to get your head down and in the game to see what you are capable of.
Me and others on TC I'm sure, would love to hear or see in notation some of your composition work. Can you post some in the 'Todays Composers' forum?


----------



## Philidor

mikeh375 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, even priests who also experience religious calling, albeit slightly more noble in character than for composing, have to study theology and philosophy for around 5-6 years before becoming ordained. so calling or not, best get your head down.


Besides, priests get a 5 to 6-years education in theology to bring them in position to assess their religious callings before they are going to speak about it in public. This is not too bad, imho.


----------



## mikeh375

Philidor said:


> Besides, priests get a 5 to 6-years education in theology to bring them in position to assess their religious callings before they are going to speak about it in public. This is not too bad, imho.


True. Even with great talent, ability and qualifications, there are no guarantees as @bagpipers has reminded us above. I have a friend now living in the USA who graduated from the Royal College in London majoring in piano. He was a fabulous pianist even at age18. After all of that promise, he is now tidying folks gardens up and doing other odd jobs and I'm devastated for him as I can recall the many, many hours of practice he went through day in and day out. He doesn't play much anymore as you can imagine.
Not that my friend did, but one should never enter music wide-eyed and full of world conquering plans, you've got to earn and find your ability and place above all.


----------



## prlj

Denerah Bathory said:


> And if a professional orchestra cannot appreciate my noble insight then they can go to hell!


Really? 

I've sat on a number of search committees for new conductors and music directors. Based on the tone and timbre of your posts here, even if you had the "proper credentials," you wouldn't even make it out of the profiling stage of a search.


----------



## bagpipers

prlj said:


> Really?
> 
> I've sat on a number of search committees for new conductors and music directors. Based on the tone and timbre of your posts here, even if you had the "proper credentials," you wouldn't even make it out of the profiling stage of a search.


This can be true,they want certain community oriented qualities from conductor's.The Springfield Symphony Orchestra (Massachusetts) fired Raymond Harvey for simply being to withdrawn in his personal life.


----------



## prlj

bagpipers said:


> This can be true,they want certain community oriented qualities from conductor's.The Springfield Symphony Orchestra (Massachusetts) fired Raymond Harvey for simply being to withdrawn in his personal life.


Exactly! These days, a huge part of a music director's job is community and donor engagement. When 70% of your revenue is sourced through contributions, you need to be out and about in your community with a positive, inspiring, welcoming demeanor.


----------



## Nate Miller

its hard to be an introvert and make a career out of any entertainment field. I have a cousin with autism that has one of the best musical ears I've ever been around, but he has performance anxiety so bad that he is terrified to play with people.

making a career in music basically requires a vow of poverty, and making a career in classical music is even harder than that

why not find a nice job that pays your bills and subsidizes your musical interests?


----------



## VoiceFromTheEther

Wagner could play the piano...


----------



## Denerah Bathory

mikeh375 said:


> I don't recognise nor agree with any of the above Denerah. I do know that if you want others to hear your vision you'll need to have mastered a practical underpinning to cohere it and do it any form of justice. If I'm not mistaken, even priests who like you, experience religious calling - although one slightly more noble in character than for composing and conducting - have to study theology and philosophy for around 5-6 years before becoming ordained. So religious calling or not, my advice would be to get your head down and in the game to see what you are capable of.
> Me and others on TC I'm sure, would love to hear or see in notation some of your composition work. Can you post some in the 'Todays Composers' forum?


Ok, this pisses me off. There's a difference between saying I ought to learn more vs. you implying I know nothing at all. Have you not read my original post? I explain my story there. This is the problem I face and often I find myself burning bridges because I lash out not at what somebody says, but how it is said, and certainly how it sounds to me.

I feel like everywhere I go, nobody looks at the details I mention about my skills, and proceed to treat me as if I'm a child who knows nothing about the subject, has zero experience, and go on with belittling language, condescending tone, and sheer snobbery.

I understand giving advice, but this just seems rude to me. In all fields, the one thing I always wanted was to be taken seriously, not to be viewed as "master" of anything, even if I need to learn, at least treat me like someone with potential, in process of "advancement" and not act towards me as if I'm mentally "delayed". I find this incredibly hurtful, it's really a trigger point because I know myself that I have worth in this world, and I am not to be addressed like someone with mental delays. There is a difference between autistic traits and actual development delays.


----------



## Denerah Bathory

prlj said:


> Really?
> 
> I've sat on a number of search committees for new conductors and music directors. Based on the tone and timbre of your posts here, even if you had the "proper credentials," you wouldn't even make it out of the profiling stage of a search.


Ok this is missing the forest for the trees. I'm saying this here, to get it out of my system, and because well here doesn't matter as I'm asking around. Obviously I wouldn't say this, duh!!!!


----------



## Denerah Bathory

Nate Miller said:


> its hard to be an introvert and make a career out of any entertainment field. I have a cousin with autism that has one of the best musical ears I've ever been around, but he has performance anxiety so bad that he is terrified to play with people.
> 
> making a career in music basically requires a vow of poverty, and making a career in classical music is even harder than that
> 
> why not find a nice job that pays your bills and subsidizes your musical interests?


This post resonates with me, at least the first part, and explains why getting "a nice job (sic--there's no such thing in this cold capitalist modern world!!!!)" is impossible.

The reason I am on a disability support program is for psychological/psychiatric reasons--not physical ones--and honestly I still believe to this day I am misdiagnosed and basically, still misunderstood and had to just "recover" on my own. This major health crisis occurred in 2014, and at the time it was described as psychosis. There were signs thereof, but those symptoms were rather "recent developments" and autistic traits explain my entire life prior and certainly after my condition stabilized. Had it been psychosis, and I was on medication, problem should've solved. However, even all these years later I still find myself repeating the same social tendencies, behavioral traits, and the same "mistakes" as I used to say. It seemed that in my entire life, I kept going through the same cycles and patterns without knowing the "big central cause" behind it all--once I began realizing I am likely autistic, it all made sense.

You see how I cannot get a nice day job, in fact it was having to work a job at walmart that precipitated my breakdown. I am only stable if I follow my routine and do what satisfies the things I'm obsessed about.


----------



## Denerah Bathory

prlj said:


> Exactly! These days, a huge part of a music director's job is community and donor engagement. When 70% of your revenue is sourced through contributions, you need to be out and about in your community with a positive, inspiring, welcoming demeanor.


That's stupid. I hate how everything is about social involvement, it should only be about intellect and noble art--besides, 90% of humanity is degenerate and deserves to perish to clean the slate and start a new golden age...I am worthy of this, and to hell with the rest hahahahahahah


----------



## Denerah Bathory

mikeh375 said:


> I don't recognise nor agree with any of the above Denerah. I do know that if you want others to hear your vision you'll need to have mastered a practical underpinning to cohere it and do it any form of justice. If I'm not mistaken, even priests who like you, experience religious calling - although one slightly more noble in character than for composing and conducting - have to study theology and philosophy for around 5-6 years before becoming ordained. So religious calling or not, my advice would be to get your head down and in the game to see what you are capable of.
> Me and others on TC I'm sure, would love to hear or see in notation some of your composition work. Can you post some in the 'Todays Composers' forum?


Listen, I have an account on score exchange, and you can hear some midi mockups there, but I'm not computer savvy and barely know--with Sibelius now--how to do those fancy youtube videos where the score scrolls along to the playback like I see here. I know how to compose, just not how to present it in these digital formats, I'm literally a "musical minded person" in literal ways, I think computers are not part of the job, therefore I never learnt to do any of that well, period. I just get by by hacking the whole thing, being a hack because I can't stand things that don't exactly specifically have to do with real music.


----------



## bagpipers

Denerah Bathory said:


> Ok, this pisses me off. There's a difference between saying I ought to learn more vs. you implying I know nothing at all. Have you not read my original post? I explain my story there. This is the problem I face and often I find myself burning bridges because I lash out not at what somebody says, but how it is said, and certainly how it sounds to me.
> 
> I feel like everywhere I go, nobody looks at the details I mention about my skills, and proceed to treat me as if I'm a child who knows nothing about the subject, has zero experience, and go on with belittling language, condescending tone, and sheer snobbery.
> 
> I understand giving advice, but this just seems rude to me. In all fields, the one thing I always wanted was to be taken seriously, not to be viewed as "master" of anything, even if I need to learn, at least treat me like someone with potential, in process of "advancement" and not act towards me as if I'm mentally "delayed". I find this incredibly hurtful, it's really a trigger point because I know myself that I have worth in this world, and I am not to be addressed like someone with mental delays. There is a difference between autistic traits and actual development delays.


Your not the first person to find this forum exasperating LOL


----------



## Philidor

Denerah Bathory said:


> I'm literally a "musical minded person" in literal ways,


Ok. How about hiring a string quartet and conducting them with, say, Beethoven's op. 95 or Schubert #14 and asking for honest feedback after rehearsing?

Could give you a first hint.


----------



## Nate Miller

Denerah Bathory said:


> You see how I cannot get a nice day job, in fact it was having to work a job at walmart that precipitated my breakdown. I am only stable if I follow my routine and do what satisfies the things I'm obsessed about.


well, I hate to tell you this, but music is a tough business. You dont get to just do what you want. You have to do what you have to do as a professional musician, too, which is guaranteed to include getting out and networking (known as 'schmoozing' in the business) and playing music that you dont like

I keep being the heavy, but if you aren't emotionally tough as nails, a career in music might not be the thing to do. 

There's nothing wrong with playing or writing music for your own enjoyment is all I am trying to say

if you want to be able to do what you want with music, its better to do music as an avocation rather than a vocation


----------



## prlj

Denerah Bathory said:


> That's stupid. I hate how everything is about social involvement, it should only be about intellect and noble art--besides, 90% of humanity is degenerate and deserves to perish to clean the slate and start a new golden age...I am worthy of this, and to hell with the rest hahahahahahah


Well, stupid or not, that's the nature of the job. 

As some others have suggested, perhaps you would be better off forming and hiring your own group. To get and retain quality players, you're going to need to pay them. And that means fundraising, unless you are independently wealthy. 

And more importantly, you need to treat them with the kindness, dignity, and respect that a professional musician deserves.


----------



## mikeh375

Denerah Bathory said:


> Ok, this pisses me off. There's a difference between saying I ought to learn more vs. you implying I know nothing at all. Have you not read my original post? I explain my story there. This is the problem I face and often I find myself burning bridges because I lash out not at what somebody says, but how it is said, and certainly how it sounds to me.
> 
> I feel like everywhere I go, nobody looks at the details I mention about my skills, and proceed to treat me as if I'm a child who knows nothing about the subject, has zero experience, and go on with belittling language, condescending tone, and sheer snobbery.
> 
> I understand giving advice, but this just seems rude to me. In all fields, the one thing I always wanted was to be taken seriously, not to be viewed as "master" of anything, even if I need to learn, at least treat me like someone with potential, in process of "advancement" and not act towards me as if I'm mentally "delayed". I find this incredibly hurtful, it's really a trigger point because I know myself that I have worth in this world, and I am not to be addressed like someone with mental delays. There is a difference between autistic traits and actual development delays.


...well as you've reached out with a PM I'll not respond here.


----------



## bagpipers

Nate Miller said:


> well, I hate to tell you this, but music is a tough business. You dont get to just do what you want. You have to do what you have to do as a professional musician, too, which is guaranteed to include getting out and networking (known as 'schmoozing' in the business) and playing music that you dont like
> 
> I keep being the heavy, but if you aren't emotionally tough as nails, a career in music might not be the thing to do.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with playing or writing music for your own enjoyment is all I am trying to say
> 
> if you want to be able to do what you want with music, its better to do music as an avocation rather than a vocation


Trying to make in music is brutal utterly brutal,I have a friend whose father was big in music and has an IQ of 162 and he can't break through in music.
The only realistic career in classical music is get the PHD and teach really.


----------



## prlj

bagpipers said:


> The only realistic career in classical music is get the PHD and teach really.


There are many rewarding jobs on the administrative side, too.


----------



## Nate Miller

bagpipers said:


> Trying to make in music is brutal utterly brutal,I have a friend whose father was big in music and has an IQ of 162 and he can't break through in music.
> The only realistic career in classical music is get the PHD and teach really.


yea, I've spent my life among musicians. Most of them have to have some sort of 2nd job. Teaching music to pay the bills and performing when you can is pretty common. I used to play with a sax player who was a locksmith, which worked out great. He could book gigs for us while he was out on his rounds and he knew all the club owners from installing the locks for them.

I ended up programing computers so I could get a mortgage loan. We all have to do something, but I always wanted to just sing and dance 😟


----------



## bagpipers

prlj said:


> There are many rewarding jobs on the administrative side, too.


.
If you have a degree or with even a bachelors you can teach children.

I like the OP don't have any degree,I'm an autodidact and still have not broken through ,music is a rough bizz.

I have a friend who almost got a string symphony played by the San Francisco chamber symphony orchestra.The music director asked him where he got his doctorate from.He said he did not have one and the phone hung up and never heard from again.


----------



## mbhaub

Nate Miller said:


> making a career in music basically requires a vow of poverty...


That's not really accurate. Even in relatively low-paying orchestras, the base salary is around $30k. Add in the money most of them make giving private lessons and other outside gigs and they do ok - a decent middle class income. In the top orchestras salaries usually start over $100k and go quite high. The LA Phil principal bassoonist earns $300k! Not NBA salaries, granted, but not bad!

Conductors, even in smaller orchestras, are often paid very well indeed. I know one baton wielder who is the director of a minor orchestra in New England, only does eight concerts a year, and still is paid about a quarter of a million.

Composers suffer for sure. But how many composers of serious music could ever make a good living, ever? They've always struggled. But if they lower their standards: Show me the Money! John Williams has a net worth estimated at $100 million! I met Ferde Grofe who lived very, very comfortably on the royalties he got from his music being played so often, mostly Grand Canyon Suite, Mississippi Suite and Rhapsody in Blue (arranger). Most composers rely on teaching positions, orchestral residency programs, or exorbitant commissions to get by.

Soloists, particularly piano and violin, can earn very high salaries. A pianist I've worked with and lives in northern Arizona decided he likes solitude and nature but needs to bring in some money, He's a world-class player, made several cds years ago, but now just does maybe 10 concerts a year with his usual fee of $10k. He's as happy as can be,

Conductors have salaries that are all over the place. Charles Dutoit at one time could ask, and get, $100k per concert, James Levine made $30k every night he was in the pit. Lorin Maazel made over $1 million in NY. Are they really worth it? I don't know.

So, if you have the talent and can put out a great product, the money is there - no vow of poverty. But the classical music business is harsh: very few rise to the top.


----------



## Nate Miller

mbhaub said:


> That's not really accurate. Even in relatively low-paying orchestras, the base salary is around $30k. Add in the money most of them make giving private lessons and other outside gigs and they do ok - a decent middle class income. In the top orchestras salaries usually start over $100k and go quite high. The LA Phil principal bassoonist earns $300k! Not NBA salaries, granted, but not bad!
> 
> 
> 
> So, if you have the talent and can put out a great product, the money is there - no vow of poverty. But the classical music business is harsh: very few rise to the top.


that's what I'm saying. If you sell a million records, you make out ok, too, but you can't count on that happening. 

and let's be honest....LA principle bassoonist......there may be 10 people in the world at any one time who could get that gig AND you have to wait for those seats to open up, which doesn't happen every year

Again, I'm not saying you can't make a living, but its important to remember that you cant expect to just show up and get a seat in an orchestra, even a minor one

but if you actually are one of the best instrumentalists in the world, then of course you can make out ok if you get a few breaks going your way


----------



## Floeddie

Those who start early in life in pursuit of music, playing, conducting, composing, etc., have a much better chance of succeeding professionally. In my case, I was about 6 years too late to truly master the piano and other percussive instruments. A youthful mind open to expansion is helpful. The self discipline to master any art is intense. So, maybe in my next incarnation I will be great? Gotta hope so


----------



## Chat Noir

When you 'work your way up' there's no standing in front of symphony orchestras for quite some time or ever for some people. A friend of mine is a conductor and started his professional musical life as a harpsichordist, then playing the cabinet organ in the cathedral ensemble. He was the assistant conductor there for many a year until being made the conductor. Also conducting requires quite a bit of physical stamina.


----------



## Monsalvat

Böhm and Solti started out as répétiteurs/rehearsal assistants in opera houses, eventually conducting in an assistant capacity, and earned their way up. Karajan started in Ulm with a small orchestra and proved that through his dedication, insight, and _charisma_ that he could raise their standards significantly in a short amount of time, after which he got the job in Aachen. Others like Giulini and Barbirolli cut their teeth as orchestral musicians and only later became conductors (not necessarily _much_ later, but nonetheless after having experience in that kind of environment). Very few people have jumped into conducting at a professional level like Toscanini; most work their way up. Like any skill, it takes time and practice to perfect. I will not deny the benefits of a formal, structured education, but I also don't see why someone without a degree in music couldn't prove themselves to be worthy of conducting. But I'm certainly _not_ a professional conductor so please take my thoughts as only thoughts and not formal advice.


----------



## prlj

Monsalvat said:


> I will not deny the benefits of a formal, structured education


There is an intangible to the "formal, structured education" that is often overlooked...more so than the education itself, what really matters are the connections you make while completing your education. Your classmates become your peers, your references, your connections to others within the industry. Philip Glass and Peter Schickele (PDQ Bach) at Juilliard together, for example.


----------



## Chat Noir

prlj said:


> There is an intangible to the "formal, structured education" that is often overlooked...more so than the education itself, what really matters are the connections you make while completing your education. Your classmates become your peers, your references, your connections to others within the industry. Philip Glass and Peter Schickele (PDQ Bach) at Juilliard together, for example.


Yes, otherwise it requires doing all that networking from scratch which is probably a like climbing a mountain. I got something performed at a conservatory concert because I met someone doing a masters at the conservatory, who introduced me to his friends and his tutors. Even then, I have a background in music and something behind me and from chatting we discovered we know some of the same people. To come at it as someone from 'outside' would be very difficult. Not impossible. Best time to start? Today.


----------



## Monsalvat

prlj said:


> There is an intangible to the "formal, structured education" that is often overlooked...more so than the education itself, what really matters are the connections you make while completing your education. Your classmates become your peers, your references, your connections to others within the industry. Philip Glass and Peter Schickele (PDQ Bach) at Juilliard together, for example.


And if an academic institution confers a degree upon someone, it means that the institution has vouched for that person's abilities, so that person has met a set of criteria that would also be attractive to prospective employers. So it isn't just that a graduate has learned a set of skills, or a lot of knowledge; it is also that an academic institution has certified that the graduate has demonstrated proficiency in that area.


----------



## mbhaub

Monsalvat said:


> And if an academic institution confers a degree upon someone, it means that the institution has vouched for that person's abilities, so that person has met a set of criteria that would also be attractive to prospective employers. So it isn't just that a graduate has learned a set of skills, or a lot of knowledge; it is also that an academic institution has certified that the graduate has demonstrated proficiency in that area.


Boy, I wish that were true. Today though, I doubt it. There are so many uneducated educated people that I encounter. I think every institution has lowered its standards to make people happy and not leave, taking their tuition payments with them. Some big school in New York just fired a bio chem teacher because the whiny, lazy students complained the class is too hard. I know music majors who recently graduated and want to teach band or orchestra and they know nothing. Some can only play their own instrument at a high school level. I know more about counterpoint, orchestration and music history that they do and I was a math major. Yet the university vouched for their superior knowledge.


----------



## mikeh375

mbhaub said:


> Boy, I wish that were true. Today though, I doubt it. There are so many uneducated educated people that I encounter. I think every institution has lowered its standards to make people happy and not leave, taking their tuition payments with them. Some big school in New York just fired a bio chem teacher because the whiny, lazy students complained the class is too hard. I know music majors who recently graduated and want to teach band or orchestra and they know nothing. Some can only play their own instrument at a high school level. I know more about counterpoint, orchestration and music history that they do and I was a math major. Yet the university vouched for their superior knowledge.


There is some truth to this in my experience too,
but generally I think @Monsalvat is right. There where composers contemporary with me at my Alma Mater who did not know how to write a fugue, nor where they being pressed to learn, such was the focus on 'personal' development. I understood much later that there was good reason for that given that our immediate and creatively relevant historical canon was the 20thC, not the Baroque.


----------



## adrien

This is a very interesting discussion. Music is a very tough field to make a living in. To be a successful performer you need to have started young, have had parents with the foresight and funds and access to top teachers, and you need almost superhuman dedication.

most people cannot be successful performers for many reasons other than raw talent. But at least as a performer you’re judged on ability rather than education.

then there’s composers. I don’t have much experience but I wouldn’t dream of trying to make a living at it. But if you have contacts you can get your music performed.

but conducting is the toughest. Those gigs never come up. Not with pay anyway. Community orchestras who don’t really pay might give you a go if you have some credentials. Credentials can come in the form of referrals from a conducting tutor. In the end reputation will trump a PhD but has to be built and there aren’t really any shortcuts unless you have a ton of money.

personally I feel composing is more personally rewarding than I imagine conducting would be (I have sat in front of more conductors than I can count).


----------



## nirvanaave

I think a career in classical music is impossible without higher education and a university degree. I think there are quite high demands in this industry, and there are still more people striving to build a career in music. University education excludes those who are weak, leaving the most talented. Perhaps you should try to enrol in a university in another country with lower student requirements. You can find out about such universities and check admission status on this website. I hope you still realize that a music career is impossible without higher education. Good luck to you!


----------



## adrien

nirvanaave said:


> .. I think there are quite high demands in this industry, and there are still more people striving to build a career in music.


I agree with this



> University education excludes those who are weak, leaving the most talented.


I really think this is a gross assumption and completely unfounded. Talent or weakness is nothing to do with whether you go to university or not. This attitude is quite prevalent but the universities do not deserve this kind of reverence in my experience.


----------

