# What age ranges like Classical music the most?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Some people stereotype that mostly elderly people like Classical music; how close to reality is that? I've been to the Tel-Aviv opera hall (guess why) twice, one time last June for "The Tale of Tsar Saltan", and about an month age for "Un ballo in maschera"; in both cases my mother came with me, and we both enjoyed the operas very much. One think did seem odd to me though-I mostly saw older people; is it young people don't like Classical music, or elderly people don't like popular music? The Philharmonic here gives tickets to people aged 35 or less for something like 85% off (I'm 29 later this year) for concerts, with some are just easy drive drive from my flat, and I'm certainly going to attend them, the closest would be on April's 3th for Mahler's 9th Symphony.


Did anyone else here notice this? Are there any other people on this board that are young adults like me or even teenagers who like Classical music regardless of this stereotype?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's been like this a long time - that concerts are attended by dying, white-haired old people. It's been like that a long time. One reason is that it's older people who have the time (and the money) to go to these concerts. Even 50 years ago there weren't that many young people at concerts. I was the only person at my high school who actually had a season ticket to the local symphony. In Europe, I see far younger audiences than in the US. It is troubling that it seems young people have little interest or exposure to great music. It's too bad, and I don't know if it will ever get turned around. But when you have two generations of dopes teaching things like "Hey, hey, Ho, ho, Western Civ has got to Go!" this is what happens. But I don't despair - summer music festivals are packed. The hunger for great music in China and Japan is tremendous. When I play gigs in Mexico or China the huge auditoriums are packed with young people. Encouraging.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> It's been like this a long time - that concerts are attended by dying, white-haired old people. It's been like that a long time.* One reason is that it's older people who have the time (and the money) to go to these concerts.* Even 50 years ago there weren't that many young people at concerts. I was the only person at my high school who actually had a season ticket to the local symphony. In Europe, I see far younger audiences than in the US. It is troubling that it seems young people have little interest or exposure to great music. It's too bad, and I don't know if it will ever get turned around. But when you have two generations of dopes teaching things like "Hey, hey, Ho, ho, Western Civ has got to Go!" this is what happens. But I don't despair - summer music festivals are packed. The hunger for great music in China and Japan is tremendous. When I play gigs in Mexico or China the huge auditoriums are packed with young people. Encouraging.


There are *PLENTY *of people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s who have enough money to buy $200 tickets to attend rock concerts. Economics play something in the role of the lack of young people at classical concerts but it is more a matter of taste.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The reason concerts are full of people my age and older (I am 68 and have been attending concerts 45 years) is simple: old people have money, they tend to be more careful with money than when they were younger, and they have a more finely tuned idea of what they want for their money so don't blow it on other stuff. 

They've also been listening to this music all their lives. Younger people, especially those in their 20s, tend to be distracted by other things though to say there are no young people at concerts would be a mistake.

Also, when you are young you look at the world differently. You have more passion but you also have a lot more time. When you get old your concept of time to end of life changes so, while you may not have the passion you had early in life, you know your time is shortening. Ergo there comes a certain urgency that doesn't exist when you are young.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

My girlfriend and I were definitely the youngest people at the symphony when we went last month (I'm 23). Don't know anyone else in my age group who is into classical music other than the hardcore music students I knew in college.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

There were some teenagers at the Bruckner I saw a few months ago. Presumably there with parents. The boy was literally collapsing in his seat onto the mother's lap during the long adagio. I'm guessing he can't wait for the freedom to choose his own Sunday afternoon entertainments.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

:lol: probably so... wanting to cultivate in your children an interest in the arts is one thing, and I respect it. But dragging them along to a Bruckner symphony... I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Radio stations tend to be split into specific genres - chart pop, easy listening, eras, jazz, country etc. so young people are no longer exposed to classical music. When I was young (born 1940) our Light Programme catered for everybody and programmes such as ‘Housewives’ Choice’, Music While You Work’, etc. always included some popular classical and most people knew the 1812, The Planets, lots of Elgar, RVW, Rossini overtures, even if they didn’t remember the titles. Nowadays people only pick up bits of classical from films and TV.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

LezLee, did you ever listen to 'Melody on the Move'? My father is an early 60s teen, but when I played the signature tune for him recently via you tube he was all lit-up with nostalgia:

_Melody on the Move_ theme (Composer: Clive Richardson):


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I got into classical in my teens to some extent, but really didn't get carried away with it until 2011.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

I know the tune very well but don’t remember the programme. I looked it up and see it was on in the mornings around 8.00 to 9.00 from 1958 so I would have been at work. If I’d been working in the evening I’d still have been in bed at that time


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Judging by the concerts I attend, it's very popular with the over 70 age bracket. And I doubt a lot of people in their 20s can afford to blow 200 dollars on concert tickets. Not all young people work for Google or Microsoft.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have always loved classical music. It came first for me. But I didn't know anyone among my many circles of friends who had a similar interest. I think it has always been rare for young people to like classical music. As people mature I do think more and more of them discover classical music ... but we remain a very small proportion of the population and a small proportion of our age cohort.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think there’s some danger in equating “classical music” with orchestral concerts. I attend mostly chamber music concerts, solo recitals, and so forth. There are always plenty of young people. That might have something to do with ticket prices (often in the $40 range and usually discounted for students), free parking, suburban location, and other factors.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I think there's some danger in equating "classical music" with orchestral concerts. I attend mostly chamber music concerts, solo recitals, and so forth. There are always plenty of young people. That might have something to do with ticket prices (often in the $40 range and usually discounted for students), free parking, suburban location, and other factors.


Maybe there are regional differences? Syracuse Friends Of Chamber Music produces world class recitals every year and tickets are 25 dollars. But the audience is mostly older people. So maybe young people in SoCal have more disposable income?


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I have always loved classical music. It came first for me. But I didn't know anyone among my many circles of friends who had a similar interest. *I think it has always been rare for young people to like classical music. As people mature I do think more and more of them discover classical music ... but we remain a very small proportion of the population and a small proportion of our age cohort.*


Exactly. The comments in bold are spot on.

I have been attending classical music concerts for 46 years...from the ages of 20 to 66. At concerts such as the L.A. Philharmonic or L.A. Chamber Orchestra, there never was a time when the audience did not consist primarily of people 50+ years old. The only concerts which had a large percent of young people were those recitals presented in the music department of the college I happen to be attending at the time.

And I should mention that the L.A. Philharmonic had student rush prices...$5 a ticket which is about $30 today.

If a young person is genuinely interested in exposing them self to classical music, whether concerts or recordings, there are ample opportunities that are inexpensive or free. Economic barriers are minimal.

It is a matter of taste, interest, and maturity.

Edit: Here is student ticket info from the L.A. Phil website:

Student Tickets Online
LA Phil Student Insiders can purchase $10 or $20 tickets online to by logging in to their LA Phil account. LA Phil Student Insiders who purchase tickets online must pick up their tickets at Will Call the day of the concert, by showing their valid student ID. Please give at least 24 hours for your registration to be processed before purchasing tickets online.

Student Rush Tickets
Full-time high school and college students with valid (current date) identification may purchase $10 or $20 tickets (depending on section*), based on availability, beginning two hours prior to select concerts. In lieu of a student ID with a valid date, you may present the student ID or valid photo ID PLUS a current class schedule showing full time college enrollment.

So, taking inflation in to account, rush tickets are cheaper than they were in the 70s. Great deal!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Judging by the concerts I attend, it's very popular with the over 70 age bracket. And I doubt a lot of people in their 20s can afford to blow 200 dollars on concert tickets. Not all young people work for Google or Microsoft.


Are the tickets really so expensive where you are? I go fairly regularly to the concert hall and I've never paid more than €35 for a ticket. Usually there are multiple works on the bill too. So if you went to watch e.g. Greig's Piano Concerto, they'd likely add the works of a few other Scandic composers, or a contemporary.

When I saw a Prokofiev PC they had some other work I can't remember as an opener. To close they played Stravinsky's Petrushka.

It's not all older people, but more often than not they are 2/3 of the audience; especially on Sundays. Shostakovich still draws a younger crowd. I've seen several symphonies quartets and the majority in the audience are between 25-45 (some are students from the conservatory I imagine). That's Thursday evening till late, when the pensioners are in bed.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

eugeneonagain said:


> Are the tickets really so expensive where you are?


No, I was responding to another post. But as I mentioned, chamber music concerts featuring world class ensembles are 25 dollars. The symphony concerts start at around 30 and up.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

15 years old in February OwO


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

starthrower said:


> No, I was responding to another post. But as I mentioned, chamber music concerts featuring world class ensembles are 25 dollars. The symphony concerts start at around 30 and up.


To compare how much is it costing for the cinema or a sports/pop music event?


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

From my experience, it is older people.

When I was growing up, classical music had the "music for the elderly" stereotype attached to it, which kept my friends and I from giving it a fair chance. 

It wasn't until my early 20's when I finally started listening to classical. It was my love of prog-rock (which is highly influenced by classical) that got me to listen to classical. 

More specifically, my love of avant garde classical, which is highly influenced by late 20th century classical.

The classical music I listen to, is more likely to keep the elderly away from the concert hall.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zofia said:


> 15 years old in February OwO


Wish I was..........


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Simon Moon said:


> From my experience, it is older people.
> The classical music I listen to, is more likely to keep the elderly away from the concert hall.


That's not good, ticket sales would plummet.:lol:

I always hope to see _all_ ages at the concert hall, not single age-group demographics. It depends on the place and the formality really. In the concert halls it's mostly middle-class and upper-middle people with spare cash to blow monthly on tickets and dinners (and looking for somewhere better than 'the pub' or a restaurant for their live entertainment). These are inevitably older people with established incomes. 
The people who go because they especially love classical music are fairly recognisable. They'll go alone to a concert (like me); not necessarily dressed to the nines (not like me); and during the intervals they talk about the music, rather than talking about other stuff. I've met quite a few and they are not all old people.

In general classical really does have an elite reputation. Not just socio-economically, but educationally and culturally. Many people of my age (going on for 45) almost have one foot in youth culture and have little interest in the cultural milieu associated with classical music. They're too busy pretending to be still young by wearing preposterous jeans.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

If I were to judge by the concerts that I've been to in the place where I live: Age 65-70+

It felt like I was the only (relatively) younger person amidst a sea of grey. 
I almost started to question my life's choices. "What am I even doing here? What are other people of my age doing?" But then I quickly decided that I was there for the music and all else didn't matter.  
Fortunately I've been to concerts in other places where there was a more mixed audience in terms of age.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

Zofia said:


> 15 years old in February OwO


How many people in your school like it like you do?

In my experience a lot of youths sort of like it but not enough to go to a concert, or really seek to understand the music. Even among the supposed high society.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Zofia said:


> 15 years old in February OwO


I would like that if I could still have my current opera collection.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Simon Moon said:


> From my experience, it is older people.
> 
> When I was growing up, classical music had the "music for the elderly" stereotype attached to it, which kept my friends and I from giving it a fair chance.
> 
> ...


Yeah; I've heard a lot of people say they've gotten into classical because of prog. In my case (I'm 19 right now) it's the other way around. Although I think I have a better appreciation for 20th (and 21st) century classical music because of my exposure to prog.


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## StrangeHocusPocus (Mar 8, 2019)

I'd say 100+............................


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Zofia said:


> 15 years old in February OwO


:kiss:

Thank you people for your comments; I like Classical music since childhood, anyone here aside of Zofia and me too?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> :kiss:
> 
> Thank you people for your comments; I like Classical music since childhood, anyone here aside of Zofia and me too?


Yes, I'm 19. I've loved CM for over 10 years.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> It's been like this a long time - that concerts are attended by dying, white-haired old people. It's been like that a long time. One reason is that it's older people who have the time (and the money) to go to these concerts.


It's nothing to do with time and money. Your spare time is what you choose to do with it. Classical concerts are cheap compared with big popular acts. Bob Dylan tickets in particular seem to be eye wateringly high, but all of these acts are expensive. I've seen loads of concerts from good seats for under 35 GBP here in the UK. Sometimes more but the cheaper price has included big concert halls with famous soloists.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

There was a small cadre of students at my high school who liked or played classical music, but I grew up in a fairly intellectually oriented community. Bur still the majority of young people grooved to "young peoples' music" -- pop or rock -- but that's pretty much always been the case except among the aristocracy in past centuries. People have generally been expected to "grow into" CM. I was probably the only kid in my HS to have series tickets to the BSO -- but that's because the music spoke to me and I didn't care what everyone else thought.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

The BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra Thursday afternoon concerts (being recorded for BBC Radio) at Glasgow City Halls are priced at £12 - £14. Classical concerts at Glasgow Royal Concert Hall cost on average from £14 - £30.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I've liked orchestral music since I was a young teen, I listened to a lot of Copland and movie scores. Getting deeper into Brahms was around age 20 (Star Trek TNG was a formative influence musically). I've gone to free concerts in Downtown Chicago for many years now, and took in the occasional Chicago Symphony Orchestra performance (it was my second date with my future wife). My real deep dive began last year, though, age 40.

CSO concerts seem to be around age 60 as an average, with a skew over 70. Free Grant Park performances seem more like an average age of 45-50, with lots of families bringing children.

I think the appetite, though somewhat smaller than pop music, is there in all age groups. Time and money (especially for child care) favors retirees.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Oh, I also find the notion that college education would blunt interest in classical music to be laughable. If there were one demographic factor that predicted classical concert patronage, that would almost certainly be it.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

there are 500 pupils at my school from all over the world but mostly German we all love classical. 

Ages 7 to 19 I believe


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Oh, I also find the notion that college education would blunt interest in classical music to be laughable. If there were one demographic factor that predicted classical concert patronage, that would almost certainly be it.


Would agree but it depends on which level of college you go to. I have been told of many college in the USA that are not very high level and doubt they would provide much classical music environment.

I think only the top universities would all over the world as it is mostly a class/affluence factor. Of course I am sure many of the users here are not upperclass (I mean this in not a bad way) and have many years of love for classical music. Saying this as someone who is from this background I definitely see more of a effort in music than the common population.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Zofia said:


> Would agree but it depends on which level of college you go to. I have been told of many college in the USA that are not very high level and doubt they would provide much classical music environment.
> 
> I think only the top universities would all over the world as it is mostly a class/affluence factor. Of course I am sure many of the users here are not upperclass (I mean this in not a bad way) and have many years of love for classical music. Saying this as someone who is from this background I definitely see more of a effort in music than the common population.


I have taught college in the States at two levels - City College and a private Catholic college. Neither of these levels constitutes the "elite." There was no "hey hey, ho ho Western Civ has got to go" sentiment in my schools, both of which are in a rather politically liberal city (Chicago). Both colleges required introductory philosophy and humanities courses, both of which I have taught. I did not cover music extensively in humanities courses (though it was before my current obsession, I may well if I were to teach it now).

But in my estimation, exposure to European culture inevitably leads to at least some increase in interest in European music. And since college attendance almost invariably included exposure to European culture, by the transitive property, college attendance also almost invariably leads to at least some increased interest in Classical music.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Zofia said:


> Would agree but it depends on which level of college you go to. I have been told of many college in the USA that are not very high level and doubt they would provide much classical music environment.
> 
> I think only the top universities would all over the world as it is mostly a class/affluence factor. Of course I am sure many of the users here are not upperclass (I mean this in not a bad way) and have many years of love for classical music. Saying this as someone who is from this background I definitely see more of a effort in music than the common population.


so young and you already fall into the trap of CM snobbery? I doubt preference for CM correlates too strongly with the type of school you go to.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I have taught college in the States at two levels - City College and a private Catholic college. Neither of these levels constitutes the "elite." There was no "hey hey, ho ho Western Civ has got to go" sentiment in my schools, both of which are in a rather politically liberal city (Chicago). Both colleges required introductory philosophy and humanities courses, both of which I have taught. I did not cover music extensively in humanities courses (though it was before my current obsession, I may well if I were to teach it now).
> 
> *But in my estimation, exposure to European culture inevitably leads to at least some increase in interest in European music. And since college attendance almost invariably included exposure to European culture, by the transitive property, college attendance also almost invariably leads to at least some increased interest in Classical music.*


I have to disagree. I taught music at the college level at a "non-elite" college. I got my Ph.D. at an "elite" college. At both of these colleges, along with just about every college in the USA, a student can get their bachelors degree and not have any contact with classical music.

At colleges I attended and where I taught there were three types of classes where a student could (might) get exposure to classical music:
1.	Western Civ class
2.	General arts/humanities class
3.	Music appreciation class

1. Even in a well-taught Western Civ class, the time spent on classical music will not be enough to make a serious impact on students. And can students these days avoid having to take this type of class? In many colleges I think that is the case.

2. In a humanities class dealing specifically (and only) with Western art, a student can get a good exposure to classical music. But these types of classes are electives. I believe a very small percentage of students take these classes.

3. As for music appreciation; most (all?) bachelors degrees at least one "art" appreciation class, that art being either art or music or a general humanities class like item 2. So, if they only choose art appreciation, they miss on the music. And if they want to take music appreciation they can choose from classes in world music or jazz or rock music instead of the traditional music appreciation.

To re-iterate: for the most part, a student can receive their bachelors degree without any exposure to classical music.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I have taught college in the States at two levels - City College and a private Catholic college. Neither of these levels constitutes the "elite." There was no "hey hey, ho ho Western Civ has got to go" sentiment in my schools, both of which are in a rather politically liberal city (Chicago). Both colleges required introductory philosophy and humanities courses, both of which I have taught. I did not cover music extensively in humanities courses (though it was before my current obsession, I may well if I were to teach it now).
> 
> But in my estimation, exposure to European culture inevitably leads to at least some increase in interest in European music. And since college attendance almost invariably included exposure to European culture, by the transitive property, college attendance also almost invariably leads to at least some increased interest in Classical music.


I was with you until that last statement. I came from a small private religious college whose strengths were probably music, religion and philosophy. (I was a Business major although I took a number of religion courses).

I knew that my school was a religious school and that alone made it different but assumed that it was pretty much the same in other respects. How wrong I could have been. When others described their experience it was nothing like mine. Curiously, the WAY the college taught exposed you to critical thinking and by the time I graduated that's pretty much the way I thought. And I didn't even realize I was learning it. But I don't think college attendance necessarily leads you to Classical music. Especially, it larger state university.


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## Anna Strobl (Mar 13, 2019)

In the US you endure a combination ticket price combined with a overall lack of compelling programming. Chamber groups come and go as do guest performers and conductors but all is a bottom line. Here where I live in the US there is an Amadeus festival which will combine Rach/Rock with Mozart just to try to draw in the hipsters. A pianist with a name will play the Rach, a local musician the Rock. It's all about how to make the most money. And nothing on the radio. The last live broadcaster in the area retires in may (this broadcaster happens to be my husband, who is also involved with the local symphony) However, as radio broadcasts thin YouTube and other on-line venues pick up the slack. Good groups are performing all over Europe. And young people go to those, I know firsthand.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm not claiming that most colleges teach classical music (they don't) or that I know the degree to which college attendance at any level increases interest in classical music (I don't). But college attendance does demonstrably increase a student's knowledge of Europe. And it does indicate a certain financial status. Both of these things seem like they would obviously correlate with some increase (again, I don't know what increase) in classical music interest.

I would be shocked if you surveyed a classical audience and did not find at least twice the percentage of college degree attainment as in the general population.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> so young and you already fall into the trap of CM snobbery? I doubt preference for CM correlates too strongly with the type of school you go to.


No that was not my point my point was the majority of people who go to the elite schools will be from the richest families. They will either already have some exposure to the music via a family interest or as you point out snobs just go to the Opera to be seen at the opera.

I am not trying to deny classical music is for everyone regardless of background but the fact is the more affluent or well educated your parents are the more likely you are to be introduced to classical music and the more likely you will go to a top school.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Exposure to European culture can influence a student's interest in the music _indirectly_, not necessarily because they're exposed to it in college. I believe I understand where Matthew is coming from. But in my own experience an indirect or direct influence in college would have been too late. My exposure was in elementary school and it stuck for life. It's just not taught enough at that level with the same dedication now as it was in the past, at least in the States, so people have to somehow pick up on it in their own indirect way that's not necessarily connected with college. My interest in the music has always coincided with my interest in European culture and one has inspired the other. It happens.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Zofia said:


> No that was not my point my point was the majority of people who go to the elite schools will be from the richest families. They will either already have some exposure to the music via a family interest or as you point out snobs just go to the Opera to be seen at the opera.
> 
> *I am not trying to deny classical music is for everyone regardless of background* but the fact is the more affluent or well educated your parents are the more likely you are to be introduced to classical music and the more likely you will go to a top school.


It is fine to deny classical music is for everyone because that is the truth. It is for a very small percentage of people. That has always been the case and always will be.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

ArsMusica said:


> It is fine to deny classical music is for everyone because that is the truth.


Perhaps a better way of saying is that you can enjoy it regardless of backgrounds/class. Obviously the majority of people it is not for them, you are correct it would be more popular otherwise.

off topic but I very much like Thomas Sowell to.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Zofia said:


> *Perhaps a better way of saying is that you can enjoy it regardless of backgrounds/class.* Obviously the majority of people it is not for them, you are correct it would be more popular otherwise.
> 
> off topic but I very much like Thomas Sowell to.


Yes, I agree and see your point.

And always great to meet another Thomas Sowell admirer! If I had the power to put anyone in the White House, he would be my choice.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

I was born into a classical music family. My parents were long time performing members of the Scandinavian Symphony in Detroit (MI) and later the Long Beach Philharmonic (CA). Parents would take us along to the weekly rehearsals and to the concerts. 

I don't recall what age group was attending those concerts back then, but there were at least two young people there that I knew of. 

At recent Classical concerts at our local performance hall there has been a good mixture of all age groups, though it is the older generation that lends more financial support (Gold Circle, Subscribers, etc) to the performing group(s). 

I don't think, at least locally, it is a matter of money or income. Many local young people make more money than I could ever spend in several lifetimes ... ticket prices locally are very reasonable, and there are several performing venues here and more in bit further to the North in Phoenix (AZ). 

Itzhak Perlman was a performer here about two years ago - totally packed house (2,545 seats).


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

ArsMusica said:


> It is fine to deny classical music is for everyone because that is the truth. It is for a very small percentage of people. That has always been the case and always will be.


Zofia is not denying that classical music is for everyone, and her words are being twisted and misunderstood that it's OK if she does. That wasn't her point. I doubt if she looks at the music from your level of a dryly academic perspective related to percentages. The percentages related to the general interest in the music are common knowledge and she was not limiting the interest in the music to the affluent, buy that it could somehow be an advantage... As precocious as she is, you might have the sensitivity to keep in mind that she's 14. I'm a big fan and I am continually amazed at how thoughtful she is and her wide range of human interests that she's exploring. Some humans go through their entire lives not asking and contemplating the questions she does and her words needn't to be twisted into something they're not.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> Zofia is not denying that classical music is for everyone, and her words are being twisted and misunderstood. I doubt if she looks at the music from your level of a big dryly academic pronouncement related to percentages. The percentages are common knowledge and she was not limiting the interest in the music to the affluent. As precocious as she is, you might the sensitivity to keep in mind that she's 14.


Please take a look at our (hers and mine) entire exchange and get off your high horse.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

https://www.princeton.edu/culturalpolicy/quickfacts/audiences/classical02.html









Lots of interesting data in this study.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

In Australia, the traditional concert format tends to attract the greys, but film score and crossover concerts have younger audiences.

Opera is the worst in terms of its audience being in danger of dying out.

One of our major youth orchestras had a flat rate ticket price but later they changed to staggered pricing (A, B, C reserves). I attended their concert the final year they had the flat rate, and there where many young or younger (below 40's) there, including families with children. The program included a contemporary piece and finished with Shostakovich, and most stayed till the end of the concert. It was an audience largely unaccustomed to formal classical concerts, people clapped between movements and took photos with flash. I thought that this was the type of audience orchestras need to attract to keep the traditional format alive, but I don't know what happened after this orchestra changed its pricing structure. No doubt if you are a young couple with children the flat versus staggered price structure will make a difference to your budget.

I read an article years ago that said that most of those who staff our symphony orchestras where educated in the private school system, which offer the type of music programs which most state schools can only dream about. This, and also other divisions such as the generation gap of audiences, suggests that there is the equivalent of the three estates in classical music listenership. 

Instead of the aristocracy and clergy of feudalism, you now have those trained in music (whether or not making a living out of it) and others like critics and hardcore fans. But its the third estate - the vast majority of listeners, many of whom are not obsessed with classical music but do attend concerts albeit less frequently - who provide the much needed wider market for classical music as it goes through a period of transition.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Jacck said:


> so young and you already fall into the trap of CM snobbery? I doubt preference for CM correlates too strongly with the type of school you go to.


She's sharing her observations and I see no evidence that's she fallen into any "trap" of snobbery. I've never gotten the impression she was a snob or had any sense of superiority. No one but her has any idea of the interests of those she's meet at school and outsiders haven't.


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## MrMeatScience (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm in my 20s and have been primarily a classical listener since I was 11 or so (when I started playing). Good tickets are well out of my price range, but the cheaper offerings in Wien are very good. For 4€ I can go to the Staatsoper (though I have to wait in line several hours to do so, which is a major limiting factor), and for 5-7€ I can see the Wiener Philharmoniker. Of course there are more older people than younger, but there is always a contingent of people in their 20s-30s. When I lived in the US it was noticeably more skewed towards the middle-aged and up, but I guess that's anecdotal. Certainly, young people here in Austria have a much higher awareness of classical than I saw in the States.

I've tried to introduce some of my friends to classical music, but only with limited success. I did take someone to see Tosca as their first taste of opera and they really enjoyed it and have gone back, so I consider that a personal victory. More disturbing to me was that when I was in music school, I was one of only a handful of students (there were maybe 5-6 of us out of 200-ish) that spent most of their listening time with classical. FWIW, this was at an "elite" institution, so if that number constitutes an "increased" interest in classical music, I shudder to think of the situation at other universities.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

MatthewWeflen said:


> https://www.princeton.edu/culturalpolicy/quickfacts/audiences/classical02.html
> 
> View attachment 114288
> 
> ...











I don't like them grouping 18 with 34 years olds, it completely ruins the study. Most people look late 20s and up at concerts; this is quite evident.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

https://www.princeton.edu/culturalpo...assical02.html … Lots of interesting data in this study.

It said, "...approximately16% of adults in the United States attended a classical music concert in the 12 months prior to the survey."

I find this hard to believe. That is one-sixth of all adults in the United States. The latest census says there are 247,813,910 adults living in the United States. One sixth of that is more than 41 million people. There were less in 2002 but it is still a staggering number.

It seems to me if there were that many people interested in classical music in USA the subscription base for magazines like American Record Guide and Fanfare (both published in USA and with worldwide circulation) would be higher than 6,000.

Six thousand to 41 million is about 6 in 410,000 or about 1 in 68,000. I realize most subscription concerts are attended by people that don't give a hoot about the music being played but this seems incredibly low by any standard.

Another way of looking at this is, if 16 percent of Americans attend a classical music concert in a year, why do less than 1 percent of all music buyers prefer classical music?

This does not jibe with my experience in concert halls, as a consumer of classical music, and as a subscriber to classical music magazines.

I think this survey must have allowed its respondents to determine what they meant by attending a classical music concert. That could include anyone that went to one (or thought they heard classical music) in a church, at a school function, at a football game or anywhere else.

I would ask anyone reading this message to think about this: of all the people you know, and perhaps you are more likely to know someone interested in classical music than others, do 1 of every 6 of those people attend classical music concerts? I'll bet the answer is more like 1 in 25 or even 1 in 100.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

^The sample was probably from volunteers that were already somewhat interested in classical music. @Zofia it's pretty funny you say all 500 of your classmates like classical music...


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Here is a link to the study itself. A very long PDF:

https://www.esm.rochester.edu/iml/p...2/04/2002_Classical_Music_Consumer_Report.pdf

I was mainly interested in the strong correlation between education levels and classical concert attendance. In skimming the full study, it does look like it was conducted by reputable institutions with solid methodology.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

It's pretty obvious that if you have the patience to study, you have the patience for classical music... The link between IQ and liking CM must also be high, as well as openness to experience and creativity.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> She's sharing her observations and I see no evidence that's she fallen into any "trap" of snobbery. I've never gotten the impression she was a snob or had any sense of superiority. No one but her has any idea of the interests of those she's meet at school and outsiders haven't.


I was a little irritated by her mentioning of rich families and elite schools. As if elite schools were for kids of rich parents. While this might be so in countries, where education is extremely expensive, it is not so in many European countries. In Czech Republic, all education including universities is free. But you have to be good enough to be admitted (1 in 20 chance sometimes) and there are no sports scholarships to allow a backdoor for morons. Many schools are also hard (medicine, STEM fields) and at some schools, many students drop out (80% of students of mathematics and physics drop out at the end of the first year, about 20% of medical students does not survive the first year).


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Jacck said:


> I was a little irritated by her mentioning of rich families and elite schools. As if elite schools were for kids of rich parents. While this might be so in countries, where education is extremely expensive, it is not so in many European countries. In Czech Republic, all education including universities is free. But you have to be good enough to be admitted (1 in 20 chance sometimes) and there are no sports scholarships to allow a backdoor for morons. Many schools are also hard (medicine, STEM fields) and at some schools, many students drop out (80% of students of mathematics and physics drop out at the end of the first year, about 20% of medical students does not survive the first year). There are a lot of kids from rich families, who are dumb (look at Trump) and of course, the rich parents try to get some education for their dumb kids nevertheless. But they usually choose law or economics schools, because there it is much easier to camouflage the dumbness. But I can understand Sophia. She probably goes to some prestigious school and considers herself special because of it. I know it from own experience, because I attended elite schools too. But as I grew older, I learned, that there are many stupid people with diplomas from elite schools (they might even be clever, but they are psychopatic and immoral), and there are many wise people with almost no education.
> 
> There is one more aspect. Rich people in many postcommunist countries means these "nouveau riche" that got rich after the fall of communism through privatization. A lot of them were simply scoundrels or former members of intelligence services that had the most information to get rich. None of the richest people in Czech Republic, Russia, Hungary etc. is a moral people that got rich through hard-work. Most of them are thiefs that got rich after the fall of communism through some shady business. That is another reason why I am irriated by the word "rich people and their rich kids"


I have to admit I fell about laughing at this. Tears of laughter in my eyes. "no sports scholarships to allow a backdoor for morons." :lol:

Seriously though, I recognise much of this. I attended a fee-paying school on a scholarship and it had a fair sprinkling of moronic people. Overconfident rich kids with a severe sense of entitlement, who probably waltzed into important functions after leaving school, like government and big business. Now making everyone's lives a misery via their lack of brains and sheer incompetence.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

In terms of the museum pieces, the older the better. 

In terms of contemporary classical, I don't know if there's a clear age pattern, but it might skew somewhat to the younger side.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I have to admit I fell about laughing at this. Tears of laughter in my eyes. "no sports scholarships to allow a backdoor for morons." :lol:
> 
> Seriously though, I recognise much of this. I attended a fee-paying school on a scholarship and it had a fair sprinkling of moronic people. Overconfident rich kids with a severe sense of entitlement, who probably waltzed into important functions after leaving school, like government and big business. Now making everyone's lives a misery via their lack of brains and sheer incompetence.


the best schools in Czech Republic (Charles University, Masaryk University) do not want to tarnish their reputation by giving free diplomas to morons, but there are some private schools, which basically hand you the diploma for money. And a lot of incompetent corrupt politicians have such diplomas - mostly from law schools. Another such fake title is the MBA. Every moronic manager who pays for it can get this title. And these people govern us. They are the CEO's, the politicians etc.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> the best schools in Czech Republic (Charles University, Masaryk University) do not want to tarnish their reputation by giving free diplomas to morons, but there are some private schools, which basically hand you the diploma for money. And a lot of incompetent corrupt politicians have such diplomas - mostly from law schools. Another such fake title is the MBA. Every moronic manager who pays for it can get this title. And these people govern us. They are the CEO's, the politicians etc.


Hey, just like here in the states!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> :kiss:
> 
> Thank you people for your comments; I like Classical music since childhood, anyone here aside of Zofia and me too?


Yes. I'm 31 and love classical beyond any other music genre, and have been attending to (a few) concerts since my twenties. My mother started her love for Wagner and Chopin when she was still a teen. Despite that, I think that somehow there's a tendency for experienced people to value more this genre than youngsters, perhaps due to it's relative complexity, depth and demands on the listener.


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## muzik (May 16, 2013)

I've listened to classical music all my life. I've started attending concerts around the age of 18. 
Young people might not attend concerts but it doesn't mean they don't listen to classical music...


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

1996D said:


> ^The sample was probably from volunteers that were already somewhat interested in classical music. @Zofia it's pretty funny you say all 500 of your classmates like classical music...


I go to a music school for classical musicians


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Jacck said:


> I was a little irritated by her mentioning of rich families and elite schools. As if elite schools were for kids of rich parents. While this might be so in countries, where education is extremely expensive, it is not so in many European countries. In Czech Republic, all education including universities is free. But you have to be good enough to be admitted (1 in 20 chance sometimes) and there are no sports scholarships to allow a backdoor for morons. Many schools are also hard (medicine, STEM fields) and at some schools, many students drop out (80% of students of mathematics and physics drop out at the end of the first year, about 20% of medical students does not survive the first year). There are a lot of kids from rich families, who are dumb (look at Trump) and of course, the rich parents try to get some education for their dumb kids nevertheless. But they usually choose law or economics schools, because there it is much easier to camouflage the dumbness. But I can understand Sophia. She probably goes to some prestigious school and considers herself special because of it. I know it from own experience, because I attended elite schools too. But as I grew older, I learned, that there are many stupid people with diplomas from elite schools (they might even be clever, but they are psychopatic and immoral), and there are many wise people with almost no education.
> 
> There is one more aspect. Rich people in many postcommunist countries means these "nouveau riche" that got rich after the fall of communism through privatization. A lot of them were simply scoundrels or former members of intelligence services that had the most information to get rich. None of the richest people in Czech Republic, Russia, Hungary etc. is a moral people that got rich through hard-work. Most of them are thiefs that got rich after the fall of communism through some shady business. That is another reason why I am irriated by the word "rich people and their rich kids"


There is correlation between social class and academic achievement. Of course it is a case of "not all" but it's fact. The more well off you are the more time you devote to preparing for your kids education, reading to them, music practice and tutoring etc. I did not say it was only rich people but so few at my school are on scholarships maybe 10%. I was offered one and I am from wealthy family so I doubt that all of that 10% are from lower economic status as I think it should be.

Nothing I said should annoy but certain people seem to go out of their way to take offence at what I say.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Zofia, people can be offended by things that are true but they don't want to hear, even more so when the things are well-researched and tested! Illogical, to be sure! For example in Canada, and especially in the U.S.A. where I lived for six years, the term "social class" is very disliked by people who think "anyone can get rich here" and "we have no classes here." So we may avoid saying much about social classes, especially with the boss! Even though the concept is valid and useful in my opinion, there are some situations where I don't mention it. I think in Europe both right- and left-wing people are better educated about, and more open to speaking of, social classes. Also, I believe that you have worked hard and deserve you rewards.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Roger Knox said:


> Zofia, people can be offended by things that are true but they don't want to hear, even more so when the things are well-researched and tested! Illogical, to be sure! For example in Canada, and especially in the U.S.A. where I lived for six years, the term "social class" is very disliked by people who think "anyone can get rich here" and "we have no classes here." So we may avoid saying much about social classes, especially with the boss! Even though the concept is valid and useful in my opinion, there are some situations where I don't mention it. I think in Europe people are better educated about, and more open to speaking of, social classes.


While linked in a lot of cases you get some very poor upperclass also. Like a branch of my family had to flee the USSR in their nightclothes as the communist spearheaded a mob to kill my ancestors. So I love to see they were handed everything on a plate when they moved to another country and made their entire wealth from scratch. How easy it must be huh?


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## Judas Priest Fan (Apr 27, 2018)

I am 53 and was a life long Rock and Metal guy. Two or three years ago I discovered CM, and listen almost exclusively to it now.

I have only been to three classical concerts so far. The first two where Beethoven/Brahms/Holst- The Planets. There were quite a few young people at those concerts.

My latest concert was a Night With Paganini. It absolutely blew me away, but it was very poorly attended, and I didn´t notice any young people.

The Beethoven/Brahms concert cost around €50, the Holst concert was a Youth Orchestra ( they were FANTASTIC!) €15, and Paganini with Dmitry Berlinsky cost €70.

All concerts were at the Glocke in Bremen, Germany.

I can´t afford to go to a concert every week or month, but I want to see at least a couple of CM concerts each year.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Zofia said:


> I go to a music school for classical musicians


What instrument do you play? (If you dont mind me asking)


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

This is one of those topics that have kind of been beaten to death but here's my 2 cents. (I realize it may be different in different countries.)

A big part of this is exposure. You can't like something if you're not exposed to it. Because of consumerism most kids start listening to "pop" music at a very early age in the U.S. They don't listen to classical so in their minds, somehow, a guitar is cool but a violin is not. 

In my own case, I was lucky enough to have a mother that went to a private school and got a music degree. I'm kicking myself for not learning the piano but I was exposed to it through her. I ended up attending the same college she had years earlier. I had a music appreciate course and that's when the classical bug bit me. A number of factors made it difficult for me to pursue enjoying classical music, not the least of which is that I was more interested in girls. But I was bitten nevertheless and I would later start my classical journey.

I've lived in Washington, D.C. and had subscriptions to the Kennedy Center (during Rostropovich's leading) so I've been exposed to a place where top talent will preform. I also have lived in Arkansas. The two may as well be on separate planets. I keep up with the Arkansas Symphony's lineups each year. 11 years ago Joshua Bell came and performed. It was my wife and my wedding night so we went to see him. Since that time the only name that's come there that I recognized was Rachael Barton Pine. I didn't go see her.

But it's mainly exposure. That exposure usually (not always, but usually) is found in situations that are not glued to the consumerism of popular music at any given time. In my view, it takes money to break out of being a slave to consumerism.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Judas Priest Fan said:


> I am 53 and was a life long Rock and Metal guy. Two or three years ago I discovered CM, and listen almost exclusively to it now.
> 
> I have only been to three classical concerts so far. The first two where Beethoven/Brahms/Holst- The Planets. There were quite a few young people at those concerts.
> 
> ...


There is actually much crossover stylistically between certain genres of Rock/Metal and some classical genres. Jack Bruce of The Cream called J.S. Bach "The Governor" and "The Ultimate for Bass Players".


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Zofia said:


> There is actually much crossover stylistically between certain genres of Rock/Metal and some classical genres. Jack Bruce of The Cream called J.S. Bach "The Governor" and "The Ultimate for Bass Players".


Very cool that you know that.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> What instrument do you play? (If you dont mind me asking)


No not at all I did mention when I joined but I don't mind repeating.

Piano,
Harpsichord 
Organ (I play most weekend for church)
Electric Keyboard
Violin/Viola/Cello
Guitar/Electric Guitar 
Lute

Some others also a little...

Mostly I am best with keyboard but I am proficient enough with the violin (etc) to be flexible with school groups. Guitar/Lute is purely recreational not talented like the others.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Zofia said:


> There is actually much crossover stylistically between certain genres of Rock/Metal and some classical genres. Jack Bruce of The Cream called J.S. Bach "The Governor" and "The Ultimate for Bass Players".


You're the music expert so I certainly won't go against what you say. I agree with you but I'm not quite sure "stylistically" would be how I would describe it. Probably the first rock musician that I realized played some classical in his music was Rick Wakeman. He's musically trained but I've watched closely his keyboard playing on some his old videos and what he is playing is very simplistic. His talent has to be way greater than what he is using when he's playing that music. Of course, it looks snazzy to the audience but that actual playing is not very rich.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Zofia said:


> No not at all I did mention when I joined but I don't mind repeating.
> 
> Piano,
> Harpsichord
> ...


Wow, that's impressive. Congratulations to you. May you have many years of pleasure in your playing!


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> You're the music expert so I certainly won't go against what you say. I agree with you but I'm not quite sure "stylistically" would be how I would describe it. Probably the first rock musician that I realized played some classical in his music was Rick Wakeman. He's musically trained but I've watched closely his keyboard playing on some his old videos and what he is playing is very simplistic. His talent has to be way greater than what he is using when he's playing that music. Of course, it looks snazzy to the audience but that actual playing is not very rich.


Certainly not an expert perhaps it is my English. However Rock/Metal was really the first genre to go as heavy as classical genre. Think Wagner for example or J.S. Bach often worked into extended improv sessions live. Examples are The Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, The Cream and Frank Zappa all would work little bits of classical into their live shows but "rocked up".

I believe J.S. Bach was a big influence on Black Sabbath also at least the early albums. I am not a massive fan of rock metal mostly listen through friends but it is clear when searching for a definitive sound they found it in classical music fused with blues.

There is also the whole virtuous element that is practiced in rock/metal. I think this has part of the classical legacy. Would stress blues music also of big importance in rock and metal more so rock/early metal.

I personally am not a fan of equating this type of music with classical music it clearly isn't but you can see how it translates here.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Zofia said:


> Certainly not an expert perhaps it is my English. However Rock/Metal was really the first genre to go as heavy as classical genre. Think Wagner for example or J.S. Bach often worked into extended improv sessions live. Examples are The Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, The Cream and Frank Zappa all would work little bits of classical into their live shows but "rocked up".
> 
> I believe J.S. Bach was a big influence on Black Sabbath also at least the early albums. I am not a massive fan of rock metal mostly listen through friends but it is clear when searching for a definitive sound they found it in classical music fused with blues.
> 
> ...


I'm sure you're right. I mean I started listening to Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath when they first released and I hear nothing related to Bach but you have trained ears whereas I don't.

I'm not trained so I have very little knowledge. I spent some time over the years trying to learn things but a lot I've forgotten. I once tried to find some music that had classical elements that my friends could easily hear and could then relate to classical music. It didn't work. One album I've always been interested in has been Styx' Paradise Theater. It's a concept album. If you look at the front cover you see the gala opening of the Paradise Theater, then if you look at the back cover you see pigeons and an abandoned building. The very first (musical phrase?) A.D. 1928 represents the opening of the theater. The very end phrase of the album (A.D. 1958) represents the closing of the Paradise. When you listen to A.D. 1928 just listen to that, don't worry about the "Rockin the Paradise".

The repeat that they do in A.D. 1958 I've heard used in some classical music where you hear a phrase later in a piece (maybe in a later movement.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Zofia said:


> No not at all I did mention when I joined but I don't mind repeating.
> 
> Piano,
> Harpsichord
> ...


That's very good! You're talented!


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