# Do you like metal music?



## Tapkaara

Just curious as to how many of our esteemed forum members enjoy metal music.

Cast your vote!

(Let's keep the conversation civil, please!)


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## Weston

I do like metal. Heck, I was listening to it or its prototypes before many of you were born. I just don't think it belongs in a classical music forum to the extent that it is brought up. 

There IS a very tenuous connection. Someone once determined that most Black Sabbath music is modal and made an album of Black Sabbath songs as Gregorian chants. Interesting, but a novelty at best. Also some of the early metal vocals had the same kinds of powerful projection that opera singers can attain. But there's otherwise no comparison between the two genre's.

I'm afraid I think most of the metal posturing is pretty silly though. I just like the sound of power chords and open fifths and the hypnotic effect of a good riff. Think of it as a guilty pleasure. 

I have to laugh at the Cookie Monster vocals so prevalent in today's metal. I preferred the talented singers who could belt out a note with astonishing power going all the way back to the pre-metal days of hard rock. Ian Gillan may have been one of the earliest of these.

I also think Tony Iommi showed amazing creativity by taking a horrible accident (two of his finger tips were ripped off in an industrial accident the last day of his factory job before quitting to be a professionaql musician). He took this handicap and tuned his guitar a bit lower to make the strings easier to press, made prosthetic finger extensions out of melted plastic bottles, and invented that slushy plodding doomy sound that so many later imitated. Today he is widely respected as the architect of metal and he still cranks out the doomy riffs without repeating himself. Really, a remarkable human being.

But I was a classical fan first.


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## Tapkaara

Weston said:


> I just don't think it belongs in a classical music forum to the extent that it is brought up.


I would agree.


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## Mirror Image

No, I don't like metal.


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## Sid James

I'm pretty indifferent to metal, I guess...


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## Krummhorn

Since you asked ...  ... No, I don't like metal. 
That's answering with the admin hat off, btw. 

Come to think of it, I don't like it with the admin hat on either, for that matter


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## Tapkaara

Krummhorn said:


> Since you asked ...  ... No, I don't like metal.
> That's answering with the admin hat off, btw.
> 
> Come to think of it, I don't like it with the admin hat on either, for that matter


Hahaha...doesn't matter what hat I have on, I don't like it myself.

I have a friend from England who LOVES metal. She'a an Iron Maiden girl.


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## Conservationist

Tapkaara said:


> I have a friend from England who LOVES metal. She'a an Iron Maiden girl.


Heavy metal is my least favorite of the genres, but Iron Maiden at their best beat pretty much the rest of that subgenre.

Then again, for heavy metal, the British bands are the best: Priest, Maiden, Motorhead, Angel Witch, Witchfinder General.

After that, it was all downhill for brokeback island.


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## Praine

No thanks.


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## Guest

Not in a box. Not with a fox.
Not on a train. Not in the rain.
Not in a house. Not with a mouse.
I do not like it, Sam, you see.
I don't like metal. Please let me be!​


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## Conservationist

From the forum description:

"Rock, hip-hop, pop, metal? Any non-classical genre music discussion."

If you don't like it, ignore it. I don't post in the jazz threads (except perhaps to affirm the supremacy of Ornette Coleman).


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## Aramis

I listened to thrash and classic 80's heavy metal few years ago and I still have some sentiment. I don't really listen to it anymore, but I'm not a metal hater in general too. It's just metalheads often make me laugh with their stereotypical behaviour.


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## Lisztfreak

I really don't like it. It is mostly noise, not music.


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## emiellucifuge

yep, love it


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## Conservationist

Aramis said:


> It's just metalheads often make me laugh with their stereotypical behaviour.


Some definitely do.

It reminds me of how jazz fans are usually pompous and confrontational on the internet, but when you see their lives, there are these meek little people who bend over for The System or The Man any chance they get, failed at education, are bitter and aging into obscurity, etc.

Metalheads at least have some fight in them! I'd like to get more of them to listen to classical though.


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## Dedrater

Weston said:


> I'm afraid I think most of the metal posturing is pretty silly though. I just like the sound of power chords and open fifths and the hypnotic effect of a good riff. Think of it as a guilty pleasure.







For me, the above song is not a guilty pleasure. It's just as stirring as my favorite Schubert impromptus, if not more so, despite its minimalism. Hypnotic, yes, but rockin' power chords? Nah.

If nothing else, it is perfectly evocative of that pagan woman sounding the horn in front of an ancient wintry forest that you see in the video. That, by the way, is a painting by 19th century Norwegian painter Theodor Kittelsen that was appropriated for use as the album cover, if anyone is familiar with his work.


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## Lisztfreak

The riff is exactly what annoys me. Producing a dense carpet of perpetual boggy noise, tiring to the ear and exhausting to the mind.


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## Dedrater

Lisztfreak said:


> The riff is exactly what annoys me. Producing a dense carpet of perpetual boggy noise, tiring to the ear and exhausting to the mind.







Here's the instrumental version, which takes about twice as long for the density of the piece to be fully realized. The two appear on the same album, and are differentiated in this way to demonstrate the change in narrative from something aggressive to contemplative and ambient. This change takes place after a 25-minute meditation on life and death using nothing but a single keyboard in a minimalistic fashion, with pure emphasis on tone color and the goal of inducing a trance-like state. Here is part of that piece:






Exhausting? _Really?_

To preempt the inevitable sidesteppings, 'subjective' justifications, and corner retreats: After this, if the consensus is still that metal is loud, insipid music for morons, I'll ignore all of these kinds of posts and only discuss metal when the occasional topic pops up. The rest of my time here will be spent discussing classical music.


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## ozradio

Loved it in junior high, now I have no patience for it.


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## Bach

how can one 'meditat[e] on life and death using nothing but a single keyboard' unless they're playing Bach or Beethoven?


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## Bach

Dedrater said:


> Exhausting? _Really?_.


'fraid so - sounds like 'mystery' music from a low budget, made-for-TV sci-fi horror..

..repeated over and over again.

There is no valuable music in this.


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## Dedrater

Bach said:


> 'fraid so - sounds like 'mystery' music from a low budget, made-for-TV sci-fi horror..
> 
> ..repeated over and over again.
> 
> There is no valuable music in this.


No mental imagery? No appreciation for the mood or atmosphere? No desire to act in life, to traverse an area of wilderness where no one has stepped foot before? To think about your ancestry or your existential purpose in life?

So you feel nothing, but enjoy finite, mimicable musical properties like development -- which require arbitrary, if pretty neat, training by other human beings and are not innate. Interesting; I guess I'll leave this be, then.


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## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> It reminds me of how jazz fans are usually pompous and confrontational on the internet, but when you see their lives, there are these meek little people who bend over for The System or The Man any chance they get, failed at education, are bitter and aging into obscurity, etc.


And with one foul swoop, Conservationist totally made a sweeping generalization about people he knows nothing about.

Yes, all of us jazz fans are uneducated, bitter, meek little people.  It's truly amazing how people with no idea of what they're even talking about come across to other people.


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## Conservationist

Mirror Image said:


> And with one foul swoop, Conservationist totally made a sweeping generalization about people he knows nothing about.
> 
> Yes, all of us jazz fans are uneducated, bitter, meek little people.  It's truly amazing how people with no idea of what they're even talking about come across to other people.


Metal music is like classical through-composed, narrative, built on the foundations of complexity (you might enjoy the books Neurophilosophy by Patricia Smith Churchland and Chaos Theory by N. Katherine Hayle).

Jazz is just a droning pop melody with random jamming over it, which is why jazz fans are very particular about recordings... their "heroes" churn out crap most of the time. Jazz fans are idiots pretending to be smart.

What, did you think people here were free to slander metal, and not get called on it?


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## Tapkaara

Um, when I created the thread I requested a "civil" discussion. We're losing a little bit of that civility here. Can we please reign ourselves in a bit?


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## Mirror Image

Conservationist said:


> Metal music is like classical through-composed, narrative, built on the foundations of complexity (you might enjoy the books Neurophilosophy by Patricia Smith Churchland and Chaos Theory by N. Katherine Hayle).
> 
> Jazz is just a droning pop melody with random jamming over it, which is why jazz fans are very particular about recordings... their "heroes" churn out crap most of the time. Jazz fans are idiots pretending to be smart.
> 
> What, did you think people here were free to slander metal, and not get called on it?


All I said was I didn't like metal. 

It's amazing how many times you can degrade people who listen to jazz music and how each time you rely solely on personal attacks to get your point across.


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## Conservationist

Tapkaara said:


> Um, when I created the thread I requested a "civil" discussion. We're losing a little bit of that civility here. Can we please reign ourselves in a bit?


The intent of the thread was not a civil discussion, but a bashing campaign.

I think you knew that.


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## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> Um, when I created the thread I requested a "civil" discussion. We're losing a little bit of that civility here. Can we please reign ourselves in a bit?


Tapkaara, you started this thread, what did you expect? You can't expect to have civil conversations with people who constantly degrade what you listen to. It's one thing to say you don't like something, but to continue to rant and rave with no logic is insulting.


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## Tapkaara

Conservationist said:


> The intent of the thread was not a civil discussion, but a bashing campaign.
> 
> I think you knew that.


Maybe some people want to bash metal in here, I clearly have not. I am just curious as to how many of our forum members enjoy this music.


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## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> Maybe some people want to bash metal in here, I clearly have not. I am just curious as to how many of our forum members enjoy this music.


Yes, and all I said was I didn't like it and all of sudden I'm getting told how disgusting I am because I love jazz?


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## Conservationist

Tapkaara said:


> Maybe some people want to bash metal in here, I clearly have not. I am just curious as to how many of our forum members enjoy this music.


Sorry to hear you couldn't be honest about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive–aggressive_behavior



Mirror Image said:


> Yes, and all I said was I didn't like it and all of sudden I'm getting told how disgusting I am because I love jazz?


Let's see:

* All the people who don't like metal like jazz
* This is a popular music forum
* While metal is popular music, it is bashed and jazz is praised
* The idea is that somehow jazz is more deserving

Yeah, I think the pomposity finally angered people! LOL to those who didn't see it coming -- what, are you in denial because you're being passively aggressive?


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## Atelier

I'd go so far as to say that many classical composers were in fact writing metal. Much of the work of Beethoven, Paganini, Shostakovich, Liszt and so on comes from a very similar headspace to that of metal.

Moonlight Sonata, for instance, is very similar to black metal.

I don't personally go in much for jazz but that's just personal preference more than anything else. I do think it's a dead style, and people who perform it these days are just going through the motions.

How is the complexity of jazz different from the complexity of math rock? Is it because jazz has become part of the establishment?

Because of political correctness, hiphop is also becoming part of the establishment.

Sit back, enjoy your sophisticated cigarettes and listen to your Miles Davis, pretending that the movement is somehow still alive.


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## Tapkaara

Atelier said:


> I'd go so far as to say that many classical composers were in fact writing metal.
> 
> Moonlight Sonata, for instance, is very similar to black metal.


I would LOVE to hear your explanation of this.


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## Mirror Image

Atelier said:


> Sit back, enjoy your sophisticated cigarettes and listen to your Miles Davis, pretending that the movement is somehow still alive.


I don't smoke, but I will sit back and let the piano playing of Bill Evans sweep me away, but before I do that I will enjoy Hindemith's "Mathis der Maler" and let the orchestra take me away.

By the way, your theory of classical composers writing metal before the genre was established is absurd.


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## Atelier

> By the way, your theory of classical composers writing metal before the genre was established is absurd.


Wow, that went right over your head, didn't it?


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## Tapkaara

I am still waiting to hear (that is, read) an answer from Atelier as to how Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata has links to black metal. This is a most fascinating assertion, and I'd like facts to back up his argument.


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## Bach

It doesn't at all.. unless he thinks the occasionally cheesy 'acoustic' pianoey bits of metal resemble the first movement..


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## Tapkaara

Well, I figure he will say it is similar because it is moody...in a minor key, it's dark and it speaks of human misery and suffering.

It's about the moon, and the moon is night. Night is demonic and terrifying. Most suicides and homicide happen at night, under the cold light of the full moon.

Only death is real.


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## Dim7

Bach said:


> I can't take any more of these deluded metalheads. I'm going to kill myself. (an ironically metal thing to do)


You're confusing emo and metal. More metal would be killing one of your band members (Vark Vikernes)

Moonlight Sonata and black metal, right...


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## Aramis

Tapkaara said:


> I am still waiting to hear (that is, read) an answer from Atelier as to how Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata has links to black metal. This is a most fascinating assertion, and I'd like facts to back up his argument.


How can you ask? Even the title is connection - it refers to the moon, buried beneath the mountains of frost, years of silent sorrow dream and dark, my winterwings of evil sleeps in eternal nights, in deaths cold crypts of snow... the moon chimed my return!


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## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> How can you ask? Even the title is connection - it refers to the moon, buried beneath the mountains of frost, years of silent sorrow dream and dark, my winterwings of evil sleeps in eternal nights, in deaths cold crypts of snow... the moon chimed my return!


Hail Satan!


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## Dedrater

Tapkaara said:


> It's about the moon, and the moon is night. Night is demonic and terrifying. Most suicides and homicide happen at night, under the cold light of the full moon.


Except it isn't about the moon at all. The first movement does, of course, convey a sombre mood, but I neither find that rebukable nor is it uncommon either in Romantic music or in metal. There's an entire subgenre of metal called funeral doom that focuses on building lengthy song structures through which to channel similar feelings found in the Liszt funeral odes. It's a reputable subgenre in its own right, though by no means an accurate representation of the structural and emotive mainstays of metal as a whole. I can think of a few black metal songs that seem to unconsciously make use of the main theme of the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata as well, though they do so with added texture.

I find it curious, by the way, that your continuance of this condescending approach is entirely hinged on making light of the emotional states experienced as positive reactions to negative environments. I'm sure your favorite symphonies are all about fluffy clouds and birthday parties.

Are you having fun with your caricature?


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## Bach

Long live the prince of darkness!


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## Tapkaara

Dedrater said:


> Except it isn't about the moon at all. The first movement does, of course, convey a sombre mood, but I neither find that rebukable nor is it uncommon either in Romantic music or in metal. There's an entire subgenre of metal called funeral doom that focuses on building lengthy song structures through which to channel similar feelings found in the Liszt funeral odes. It's a reputable subgenre in its own right, though by no means an accurate representation of the structural and emotive mainstays of metal as a whole. I can think of a few black metal songs that seem to unconsciously make use of the main theme of the first movement of the Moonlight Sonata as well, though they do so with added texture.
> 
> I find it curious, by the way, that your continuance of this condescending approach is entirely hinged on making light of the emotional states experienced as positive reactions to negative environments. I'm sure your favorite symphonies are all about fluffy clouds and birthday parties.
> 
> Are you having fun with your caricature?


The Moonlight Sonata IS about the moon. It's in the title, even! Beethoven was inspired to write it one night as he was cutting his arms with razor blades under the moon because his girlfriend, the "Immortal Beloved," broke up with him because he wasn't returning her calls. The thing was, though, he was deaf and couldn't hear the phone ring. D'oh!

My favorite symphonies are about flully clouds and birthday parties. But you forgot about puppies jumping out of lemon meringue pies and polka dot kangaroos that hop around with charity donations in their fuzzy-wuzzy pouches.

And I'm always having fun. That's why I'm in this forum. To have fun discussing classical music.

Please don't be so sensitive or shocked if I take metal music to task. Since you folks insist on having metal conversations in the classical forum, I will continue to feel compelled to participate in them as I a member of the forum in which they appear. It just so happens my opinions of metal are negative; you should indeed take the good with the bad. I know you were hoping us "classicalheads" would all come down to your level of thinking that metal and classical are really similar, if not one in the same because some metal bands unconciously lift the main melody from Beethovens's Moonlight Sonata in their works, but since it hasn't happened, at least not yet, why not keep trying?

By the way, you should feel equally compelled to participate in the classical threads. They are open to EVERYBODY! And you are welcome to make negative comments about works, genres or composers YOU don't like.

And I'll continue to await Altelier's response to the question about the black metal/Moonlight Sonata link since he's the one that brought it up.


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## Dedrater

Tapkaara said:


> The Moonlight Sonata IS about the moon. It's in the title, even! Beethoven was inspired to write it one night as he was cutting his arms with razor blades under the moon because his girlfriend, the "Immortal Beloved," broke up with him because he wasn't returning her calls. The thing was, though, he was deaf and couldn't hear the phone ring. D'oh!


See, this is a problem. You're using sarcastic sludge to mask your antipathy not for a genre of music, but for its motivations, which you neither see as similar in spirit to those of the great composers nor as anything more than a direct correlate with the personalities of individuals. Do you like music that utilizes repeated, compartmentalized patterns of forceful sound? That makes you a loser for neither having the patience to learn theory nor the apathy needed to accept your fate in modernity!

What does this weird implication have to do with reality, let alone music?



> By the way, you should feel equally compelled to participate in the classical threads. They are open to EVERYBODY! And you are welcome to make negative comments about works, genres or composers YOU don't like.


I've already addressed this earlier on this board with actual statistics and math, but as an addition: you've already jumped on me for having an aversion toward Stravinsky and Prokofiev.


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## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> And I'll continue to await Altelier's response to the question about the black metal/Moonlight Sonata link since he's the one that brought it up.


Looks like you're going to be waiting awhile as there are NO connections between black metal and Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata.

It's just another delusion from a misguided metalhead.


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## Tapkaara

Dedrater said:


> See, this is a problem. You're using sarcastic sludge to mask your antipathy not for a genre of music, but for its motivations, which you neither see as similar in spirit to those of the great composers nor as anything more than a direct correlate with the personalities of individuals.


What motivations in metal are similar to those in classical?

Lost love? Didn't the Beatles sing about that? And Sinead O'Connor? And Rod Stewart? Must we now compare them to classical because of their similar motivations?

Anger? Didn't Alanis Morissette sing about that? And Nirvana? And Limp Bizkit? Must we now compare them to classical because of their motivations?

Sadness? Didn't Nine Inch Nails sing about this? And Bob Dylan? And Elvis? Must we now compare them to classical because of their motivations?

Emotional motivation is widespread in most music. Saying that a classical piece is really similar in a tangible way to a metal or pop song because they are based on similar emotions is stretching it, I think. Even comparing Nine Inch Nails to Elvis is a stretch, so this does not only apply to the metal/classical connection.



Dedrater said:


> Do you like music that utilizes repeated, compartmentalized patterns of forceful sound? That makes you a loser for neither having the patience to learn theory nor the apathy needed to accept your fate in modernity!


I appreciate that you have called me a loser. Much like Conservationist did in his PM to me.

Yes, I like music that utilizes repeated, compartmentalized patterns of forceful sound. There is much classical music that fits that description (Ifukube...yes!) that I just not like but LOVE. There's also punk and rap ditties that fit that description that I like too.

You see, although I do not personally like metal, I have refrained from calling it garbage, worthless, etc. If it means something to you then that is great. My big deal is that this alleged metal/classical link is extremely dubious. As long as members of the forum continue to make that argument, I will debate it. And, all the while, I will even refrain from calling my debate buddy names.



Dedrater said:


> I've already addressed this earlier on this board with actual statistics and math, but as an addition: you've already jumped on me for having an aversion toward Stravinsky and Prokofiev.


This thread has some interesting statistics, too.

And I jumped on you not because you said "I don't like Stravinksy and Prokofiev," but you said "they did not know what they were doing." I can accept one's negative opinion on composers that I personally like, but I cannot accept statements such as that that are utterly silly. Although I, for example, do not like Mozart, even to me, it's clear he was a musical prodigy that knew what he was doing. If I said he was a hack, I would deserve to be called out for such baseless blather.


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## Dedrater

Tapkaara said:


> What motivations in metal are similar to those in classical?
> 
> Lost love? Didn't the Beatles sing about that? And Sinead O'Connor? And Rod Stewart? Must we now compare them to classical because of their similar motivations?
> 
> Anger? Didn't Alanis Morissette sing about that? And Nirvana? And Limp Bizkit? Must we now compare them to classical because of their motivations?
> 
> Sadness? Didn't Nine Inch Nails sing about this? And Bob Dylan? And Elvis? Must we now compare them to classical because of their motivations?


This is a continuance of the aforementioned caricature. Thankfully, metal music never bothers with the first, develops the second into something cogent and triumphant, and uses the third in a wistful, transcendent way which yearns for a past time rather than for any petty personal object of desire (and a lot of 'depressive' metal still sounds triumphant to me anyway).

This really isn't about mundane emotional qualities that everyday people are familiar with. It's something even more intangible than that, something akin to exultation succeeding a contextual victory. It raises the hairs on your skin, induces visions, affirms your own personal power as an agent of societal change. This all rejects the idea of consenting to being individuals with no goals in life, and only makes sense from the perspective of one who detests the chains of the modern wage slave.

I get that from Brahms and Bruckner sometimes, too.



> I appreciate that you have called me a loser. Much like Conservationist did in his PM to me.


I did nothing of the sort. I was playing your role, acting out your thought process as you hypothetically condescended to a metal fan. If after all these posts, you still don't get the above, and are prone to making blunders like this, there's not much I can do.



> There's also punk and rap ditties that fit that description that I like too.


How telling. Music, baseball games, movies. It's all fun distraction from our fate as drones with no purpose, right? Have fun with your hobby.



> And I jumped on you not because you said "I don't like Stravinksy and Prokofiev," but you said "they did not know what they were doing." I can accept one's negative opinion on composers that I personally like, but I cannot accept statements such as that that are utterly silly. Although I, for example, do not like Mozart, even to me, it's clear he was a musical prodigy that knew what he was doing. If I said he was a hack, I would deserve to be called on such baseless blather.


So you think John Cage, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg had a clue as to what music is for? I'm sure you'll spout some academic cliche about how music is for _many things,_ and how no one is ever right about anything, because it's all subjective.


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## Tapkaara

Dedrater said:


> This is a continuance of the aforementioned caricature. Thankfully, metal music never bothers with the first, develops the second into something cogent and triumphant, and uses the third in a wistful, transcendent way which yearns for a past time rather than for any petty personal object of desire (and a lot of 'depressive' metal still sounds triumphant to me anyway).
> 
> This really isn't about mundane emotional qualities that everyday people are familiar with. It's something even more intangible than that, something akin to exultation succeeding a contextual victory. It raises the hairs on your skin, induces visions, affirms your own personal power as an agent of societal change. This all rejects the idea of consenting to being individuals with no goals in life, and only makes sense from the perspective of one who detests the chains of the modern wage slave.
> 
> I get that from Brahms and Bruckner sometimes, too.


Then I say more power to you! If you find a similar triumph and hair-raising "x-factor" in both metal as well as classical, that's great! I do not, but that's me! I have nothing against you or anyone feeling a certain type of emotion from listening to two different kinds of music.



Dedrater said:


> I did nothing of the sort. I was playing your role, acting out your thought process as you hypothetically condescended to a metal fan. If after all these posts, you still don't get the above, and are prone to making blunders like this, there's not much I can do.


Then you were playing my role badly because not once have I resorted to calling you or anyone a loser or any other name.



Dedrater said:


> How telling. Music, baseball games, movies. It's all fun distraction from our fate as drones with no purpose, right? Have fun with your hobby.


I see I'm not the only one here who has mastered the art of condescention. 



Dedrater said:


> So you think John Cage, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg had a clue as to what music is for? I'm sure you'll spout some academic cliche about how music is for _many things,_ and how no one is ever right about anything, because it's all subjective.


I am SO glad you brought that up. I cannot stand Cage or Schönberg. I think they were more stuntmen than musicians, but they were musicians. Both had musical training and had a full knowledge of theory. But it's what they did (or didn't do) with their knowledge that I, as a private citizen, do not appreciate. But Schönberg, for example, was no hack. It's just that he used his powers for evil and not good.

Stravinksy probably had a more prodigious musical mind that Schönberg, in my opinion. If you'ev done any research into what into the composition of Le Sacre, you would walk away feeling humbled...or perhaps like a loser.

Lest this degenerate any further, I will kindly back out of this back-and-forth that has now occured between me and Dedrater. I've said my piece for now. If the argument that classical and metal takes a new turn, then I will comment on it at that time. In the meantime, I'll give Dedrater the last word.


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## Mirror Image

It's funny how these metalheads argue with people. They cut you down, make fun of you, basically insult your intelligence, and they're totally oblivious of everyone else's opinion, but their own.


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## Dedrater

Tapkaara said:


> Then I say more power to you! If you find a similar triumph and hair-raising "x-factor" in both metal as well as classical, that's great! I do not, but that's me! I have nothing against you or anyone feeling a certain type of emotion from listening to *two different kinds of music.*


Emphasis added.

A:






B:






They're essentially the same piece.

I expect the following adjectives from the peanut gallery: cheesy, droning, adolescent, tasteless

That's fine, but don't expect to be taken seriously after admissions like, "I love Michael Jackson's 'Billie Jean'" or, "I like rap."


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## Bach

I thought that was fairly cheesy to be honest - bit of a droning adolescent row in very poor taste. Some may even describe it as utterly devoid of taste: tasteLESS! if you will..


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## Mirror Image

Dedrater, it's funny how you continue to degrade people and how you continue to show everyone your inability to discuss music properly without resorting to personal attacks.

This is a good reason why I don't talk to metalheads. They don't know how to talk about music intelligently and in a civil manner.


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## Mirror Image

Bach said:


> I thought that was fairly cheesy to be honest - bit of a droning adolescent row in very poor taste. Some may even describe it as utterly devoid of taste: tasteLESS! if you will..


Yes, it was in poor taste. Nothing interesting musically going on whatsoever. It's like I have said before, how someone could listen to that metal stuff after listening to say Mendelssohn's "Symphony No. 2 - Hymn of Praise" is beyond me. Why deprive yourself of such beauty?

Metal is juvenile, adolescent angst played by people who couldn't even graduate from high school.


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## bassClef

All this is just more evidence that attracting the metalheads to this site only increases conflict and bitter exchanges. It's spreading over so many threads now. I've been attacked now as well. Time to leave?


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## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> Dedrater, it's funny how you continue to degrade people and how you continue to show everyone your inability to discuss music properly without resorting to personal attacks.
> 
> This is a good reason why I don't talk to metalheads. They don't know how to talk about music intelligently and in a civil manner.


If you want to equate yourself with the music you like and consequently view an attack on your 'taste' (dumb word) as an attack on yourself, I can't help that. This same bizarre outlook is why you're also obsessed with self-image, winning debates, and making generalizations based on 'taste' like, "They don't know how to talk about music intelligently."

Most people define others by finite quantities from their 'personality.' It's easy, convenient, and thoughtless, but far from valid. What next? Metalheads shouldn't be allowed to drive cars, because there's a higher percentage of metalhead-related car accidents in the United States?



bassClef said:


> All this is just more evidence that attracting the metalheads to this site only increases conflict and bitter exchanges. It's spreading over so many threads now. I've been attacked now as well. Time to leave?


Right on! And attracting blacks to your neighborhood causes the crime rate to go up, doesn't it? Until you guys learn how to categorize efficiently, this will continue to be pointless.


----------



## Mirror Image

bassClef said:


> All this is just more evidence that attracting the metalheads to this site only increases conflict and bitter exchanges. It's spreading over so many threads now. I've been attacked now as well. Time to leave?


You know I was so disgusted with the direction this forum was going I was about ready to leave, but I decided to stick around. I'm not going to let a few people who obviously know NOTHING about classical music ruin my experience on this forum. Don't let them rain on your parade. Stick around, ignore them, and all will be well.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> Yes, it was in poor taste. Nothing interesting musically going on whatsoever. It's like I have said before, how someone could listen to that metal stuff after listening to say Mendelssohn's "Symphony No. 2 - Hymn of Praise" is beyond me. Why deprive yourself of such beauty?
> 
> Metal is juvenile, adolescent angst played by people who couldn't even graduate from high school.


Luc Lemay's degree in theory and countless other rather irrelevant examples aside, didn't you just say:



Mirror Image said:


> Drugs have been apart of all genres of music. Not just jazz. If this is the only argument you have against jazz, then you better start looking at the bigger picture, which is you don't have an argument.


So, which is it? Are slanderous generalizations permissible or not?


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> If you want to equate yourself with the music you like and consequently view an attack on your 'taste' (dumb word) as an attack on yourself, I can't help that. This same bizarre outlook is why you're also obsessed with self-image, winning debates, and making generalizations based on 'taste' like, "They don't know how to talk about music intelligently."
> 
> Most people define others by finite quantities from their 'personality.' It's easy, convenient, and thoughtless, but far from valid. What next? Metalheads shouldn't be allowed to drive cars, because there's a higher percentage of metalhead-related car accidents in the United States?


No, you don't know how to discuss music, because it seems to me that you're too busy trying to find a way to degrade somebody who doesn't share your viewpoints.

I don't like metal, so all of sudden I'm public enemy number one. Your insults and constant degradations on me are the exact reason why I don't like having metalheads around here. You can't have a conversation without resorting to personal attacks.

Continue to insult me, do whatever helps you feel better about yourself, I don't care. My opinion of metal will still be the same: *it's noise pollution to my ears.*


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> So, which is it? Are slanderous generalizations permissible or not?


You made a comment about jazz musicians taking drugs and I said that drug use exists in all genres of music. That's not a generalization, that's reality.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> No, you don't know how to discuss music, because it seems to me that you're too busy trying to find a way to degrade somebody who doesn't share your viewpoints.


Point out where I've done so. Did you read what I wrote about equating the self with a quantity of cultural artifacts and ideas?



Mirror Image said:


> You made a comment about jazz musicians taking drugs and I said that drug use exists in all genres of music. That's not a generalization, that's reality.


You're not reading what I'm writing at all. I agree with you on the widespread nature of drug use among musicians. What I was getting at is that, if you're going to get this right, the only thing that's going to prevent you from getting _the same concept_ right as regards the credentials of metal musicians (re: the claim that metalheads are high school dropouts) is cognitive dissonance.

Some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


----------



## Mirror Image

Dedrater said:


> Point out where I've done so. Did you read what I wrote about equating the self with a quantity of cultural artifacts and ideas?
> 
> You're not reading what I'm writing at all. I agree with you on the widespread nature of drug use among musicians. What I was getting at is that, if you're going to get this right, the only thing that's going to prevent you from getting _the same concept_ right as regards the credentials of metal musicians (re: the claim that metalheads are high school dropouts) is cognitive dissonance.
> 
> Some links:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


Why are you even talking to me? I don't like metal and I'm pretty sure I never will, so why continue to try and prove something to me when there's nothing for you to prove? I'll never see metal as a legitimate form of music, because I don't think it is.

So good luck to you and your noise pollution.


----------



## Mirror Image

Well the current score is 13 to 7, this is good news for classical fans.


----------



## Guest

Surprise, No I do not like it,


----------



## jurianbai

i like metal music.


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## bdelykleon

"Metal" and "music" together form with logicians call a _contradictio in terminis_.


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## Mirror Image

Now it's 14 to 8. Yes! Metal is losing and it's losing because it's not respected as an art form.


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## Tapkaara

I'm not surprised that metal is getting more "no" votes than anything else. I wonder if the folks who voted "no" think that metal and classical are similar.


----------



## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> I'm not surprised that metal is getting more "no" votes than anything else. I wonder if the folks who voted "no" think that metal and classical are similar.


 Probably, you know how delusional those metalheads can be.


----------



## bdelykleon

I actually don't care, metal doen't even exist in my world, never heard of it, and just read that most are convicted felons... Nice people to stick with...


----------



## Guest

I would like to hear it played on acoustic instruments at a sensible noise level it may have some thing. 
Do all of the followers dress up in those outlandish costumes and do they smoke old 5 fingers ????


----------



## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> I would like to hear it played on acoustic instruments at a sensible noise level it may have some thing.
> Do all of the followers dress up in those outlandish costumes and do they smoke old 5 fingers ????


Metal played on acoustic guitars? I bet most of these metalheads don't even know what an acoustic instrument is.  If they did, they surely couldn't play it.


----------



## Guest

Steady on old chap, you will ruffle a few feathers I just noticed that they have 8 votes Conservationist must have found a crack in the system and added a few votes


----------



## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> Steady on old chap, you will ruffle a few feathers I just noticed that they have 8 votes Conservationist must have found a crack in the system and added a few votes


Well, he's still outnumbered. This is a classical music forum there's no way metal will win, because if it does then I'm going to go jump off a bridge.


----------



## Atelier

Imagine that-- on a classical music forum.

Argument ad majorem.


----------



## bassClef

I know why the metalheads have congregated here. It's because they like the conflict. There's no-one to "shock" on a metal forum is there? I grew up in the first wave of punk, I know all about the "shock the establishment" principle. What can be more "establishment" in the musical world than classical? At least the punks had some guts though, this little gang of nihilists we've attracted here prefer to sit at a keyboard, it's safer for them I suppose.


----------



## Dedrater

bassClef said:


> I know why the metalheads have congregated here. It's because they like the conflict. There's no-one to "shock" on a metal forum is there? I grew up in the first wave of punk, I know all about the "shock the establishment" principle. What can be more "establishment" in the musical world than classical? At least the punks had some guts though, this little gang of nihilists we've attracted here prefer to sit at a keyboard, it's safer for them I suppose.


I don't know why any one particular person is here, though I suspect more or less everyone is because they enjoy classical music.

Punks were and are short-sighted thinkers. They're all action and no thought. Obviously, you need both in order to be successful in accomplishing a goal. In this case, for me, the goal is to shed some light on a badly mischaracterized genre of popular music that, while primarily crap, has some diamonds in the rough. No trolling has occurred, and everyone 'defending' metal here has proclaimed his disinterest in such rudimentary Internet etiquette.

Do you know what an establishment is? Shock value is for disenchanted goth kids and film buffs, so aiming for that is self-defeating. Challenging a _real_ establishment would entail persistent effort directed against something all-encompassing like rigid adherence to culture or belief in inalienable rights, so a hobby-centric Internet forum is out.

As regards our purpose here, what does that leave? Do you think it's possible that you're paranoid?

Instead of playing this out to a T via inverted logic, I suggest you learn how to talk to other people. Do you really feel so threatened by our presence that you'll go out of your way to challenge our logic in an effort to affirm your superiority? That's solipsistic, selfish crap. Your 'taste' in music signifies nothing; there is no physical referent in the external world that it symbolizes. The bands you choose to build your personal shelter with are irrelevant to your self-worth and to your justifications for actions. Get over yourself.

To expound on confirmation bias: When adopting a stance on anything in life, it's key to be scientific in your approach to verifying it. Most people take a belief they hold and attempt to *prove* it to others. Scientists, on the other hand, take a tentatively held belief and attempt to *disprove* it. They try repeatedly, unrelentingly, and if it holds up? They're being realistic. If not, they make some refinements, and the epistemological process moves on. This is the difference between approaching the world the way you all have been in this subforum, and approaching the world the way a scientist does. Hope this helps.

Finally, on the conflict we're supposedly here for: You're creating it yourselves by behaving like this. It takes two to tango.


----------



## Dedrater

Mirror Image said:


> Well, he's still outnumbered. This is a classical music forum there's no way metal will win, because if it does then I'm going to go jump off a bridge.


Games can be fun sometimes, but this one seems positively childish to me. Maybe give monopoly a try instead of Internet polls?

I count 26 total votes. Eight of those indicate that the voter enjoys metal, but from how it appears to me, _all 26 like classical._ What's your deal?


----------



## Guest

Dedrater said:


> I don't know why any one particular person is here, .............................................................................................................................................................................................. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~etc etc etc
> Finally, on the conflict we're supposedly here for: You're creating it yourselves by behaving like this. It takes two to tango.


*Dead Ratter*, what a long winded blurb I,m sure you could condense it a bit, and all those long words? 
have a thought for us poor uneducated plebs


----------



## bassClef

I knew that would get the nihilists worked up - bless 'em.


----------



## Bach

Dead Ratter? What an interesting theory.. I always thought it was Dee-Drayter.


----------



## Tapkaara

By the way, is anyone convinced in here after reading my on going exchange with Dedrater that classical music and metal music have much in common?


----------



## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> By the way, is anyone convinced in here after reading my on going exchange with Dedrater that classical music and metal music have much in common?


Yes, they have so much in common.  This is typical behavior from a metalhead. They throw all kinds of strange opinions at you, but yet they don't want to back them up.

ROOAARRR!!!! I'M A METALHEAD!!!!! GRRRRR!!!!!!!


----------



## Noak

It's okay, I like Iron Maiden and Motörhead.


----------



## Mirror Image

Noak said:


> It's okay, I like Iron Maiden and Motörhead.


No, it's not okay.


----------



## Tapkaara

Interesting how Noak joined the forum today (July 18) and makes his way in here to declare his love of Iron Maiden and Motorhead and he has no doubt voted in the main question of the thread.

Also joining today is Slayericed, another metalhead. Doesn't it seem strange that all of the sudden there are two new members just today. One has a metalband's name in his screen name, the other lets us know who his favorite metal bands are before we know anthing about what his favorite symphonies or concertos are.

There is obviously an all points bulletin happening to get more metalheads who care little to nothing about clasical music to vote in this poll to artificially drive its numbers up. And we're supposed to be cool having these people in the forum along side us?


----------



## Dedrater

Tapkaara said:


> Interesting how Noak joined the forum today (July 18) and makes his way in here to declare his love of Iron Maiden and Motorhead and he has no doubt voted in the main question of the thread.
> 
> Also joining today is Slayericed, another metalhead. Doesn't it seem strange that all of the sudden there are two new members just today. One has a metalband's name in his screen name, the other lets us know who his favorite metal bands are before we know anthing about what his favorite symphonies or concertos are.
> 
> There is obviously an all points bulletin happening to get more metalheads who care little to nothing about clasical music to vote in this poll to artificially drive its numbers up. And we're supposed to be cool having these people in the forum along side us?


Paranoia is such an interesting human condition.

You may very well be right; these people could be popping up because of some bulletin somewhere advertising the existence of this forum. If you want to thoroughly peruse the board that Conservationist has occasionally linked to for such advertisements, here's a link:

http://www.anus.com/metal/hall/

Let me know if you find any, because I'd be interested too!

Also note that the above linked community doesn't generally talk much about Iron Maiden and Motorhead other than as seminal acts. Usually, the discussion is aimed more at post-1980 extreme music.


----------



## Tapkaara

Dedrater said:


> Paranoia is such an interesting human condition.


So, just how long have you been dabbling in armchair psychology? I, too, took the occasional pysch class in college.


----------



## slayericed

Tapkaara said:


> Interesting how Noak joined the forum today (July 18) and makes his way in here to declare his love of Iron Maiden and Motorhead and he has no doubt voted in the main question of the thread.
> 
> Also joining today is Slayericed, another metalhead. Doesn't it seem strange that all of the sudden there are two new members just today. One has a metalband's name in his screen name, the other lets us know who his favorite metal bands are before we know anthing about what his favorite symphonies or concertos are.
> 
> There is obviously an all points bulletin happening to get more metalheads who care little to nothing about clasical music to vote in this poll to artificially drive its numbers up. And we're supposed to be cool having these people in the forum along side us?


thanks for the introduction.

And I have an active interest in classical music hence the reason I am here


----------



## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> Interesting how Noak joined the forum today (July 18) and makes his way in here to declare his love of Iron Maiden and Motorhead and he has no doubt voted in the main question of the thread.
> 
> Also joining today is Slayericed, another metalhead. Doesn't it seem strange that all of the sudden there are two new members just today. One has a metalband's name in his screen name, the other lets us know who his favorite metal bands are before we know anthing about what his favorite symphonies or concertos are.
> 
> There is obviously an all points bulletin happening to get more metalheads who care little to nothing about clasical music to vote in this poll to artificially drive its numbers up. And we're supposed to be cool having these people in the forum along side us?


What's also interesting is how none of them show an interest in the main purpose of this forum, which is to discuss classical music. They can sign up by the dozens all they want to, but the facts remain the same: they care nothing about classical music and they continue a destructive path of ad homs.


----------



## Noak

It seems strange to me how fast people here seems to judge. I'm not a metalhead, and I have never been. I also have no real interest in metal music, I just happen to have heard these two bands and sort of liked what I heard. I didn't say that I loved metal either, just that it's okay, like most other genres of music.


----------



## Tapkaara

Noak said:


> It seems strange to me how fast people here seems to judge. I'm not a metalhead, and I have never been. I also have no real interest in metal music, I just happen to have heard these two bands and sort of liked what I heard. I didn't say that I loved metal either, just that it's okay, like most other genres of music.


Well, in that case, welcome to the forum!


----------



## Mirror Image

Noak said:


> It seems strange to me how fast people here seems to judge. I'm not a metalhead, and I have never been. I also have no real interest in metal music, I just happen to have heard these two bands and sort of liked what I heard. I didn't say that I loved metal either, just that it's okay, like most other genres of music.


Yeah, we're really judgmental people around here.


----------



## Conservationist

People are judgmental around here.

Then again, people on the internet in general are jerks looking to appear more important than they are.


----------



## danae

Conservationist said:


> Then again, people on the internet in general are jerks looking to appear more important than they are.


Maybe so, but then again, "the people on the internet" happen to be the majority of the western world's population.


----------



## Atelier

Mirror Image, you and the other "gentleman" have posted a litany of adhominems about a page long.

You're apparently oversensitive about Conservationist's statement that jazz is uncivilized, pretentious tripe.


----------



## danae

Atelier said:


> I'd go so far as to say that many classical composers were in fact writing metal.


Well, that is definately going too far. Don't fall into the trap of anachronism, that is, don't apply today's values and aesthetics to previous eras or schools of thought.


----------



## Atelier

> Well, that is definately going too far.


It's interesting how stuck people are on that metaphor. But now that you mention it, are you sure? Read much about Paganini? The man was a bit of a rake to say the least.

What would he have written in 1989? What kind of music would he have played?

What about Liszt, Shostakovich and Mahler? Hard to say really but I think it's an interesting question.


----------



## danae

Dedrater said:


> So you think John Cage, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg had a clue as to what music is for?


First of all, is music "for" something? I really don't get what you're saying.

Secondly, you happened to pick 3 composers that without a doubt knew what they were doing. You might not like them or their music, but you can't just ignore the fact that they were (at least Stravinsky and Schoenberg) great musicians.


----------



## Atelier

> First of all, is music "for" something? I really don't get what you're saying.


Is it for nothing? Is it meaningless?



> Secondly, you happened to pick 3 composers that without a doubt knew what they were doing. You might not like them or their music, but you can't just ignore the fact that they were (at least Stravinsky and Schoenberg) great musicians.


I can't speak for Dedrater but I suspect you may be missing some irony there. He certainly isn't saying that Stravinski wasn't a genius.


----------



## danae

Atelier said:


> It's interesting how stuck people are on that metaphor. But now that you mention it, are you sure? Read much about Paganini? The man was a bit of a rake to say the least.
> 
> What would he have written in 1989? What kind of music would he have played?
> 
> What about Liszt, Shostakovich and Mahler? Hard to say really but I think it's an interesting question.


I don't know what Paganini, or Liszt, or whoever, would have written if he was alive today, and no one could know or guess. Apart from that, it doesn't matter, and there's definately no point in making assumptions for hypothetical situations. 
I was talking about anachronism and you neither acknowledged my point nor really replied to it.


----------



## Dedrater

danae said:


> First of all, is music "for" something? I really don't get what you're saying.
> 
> Secondly, you happened to pick 3 composers that without a doubt knew what they were doing. You might not like them or their music, but you can't just ignore the fact that they were (at least Stravinsky and Schoenberg) great musicians.


Okay, so you take an exceptionally talented and intelligent person, and you throw him into an isolation chamber on a spaceship in the middle of space. He has some instruments, and a bit of knowledge about how those instruments have been used in the past, but why's he making the music? Environment shapes degree of awareness, and it takes meta-awareness to realize this.

Yngwie Malmsteen is impressive for the same reasons Schoenberg was (preemptive statement: I'm not saying Malmsteen makes atonal music), but so what? People swallow fire and jump over a hundred buses on motorcycles, too. What does it accomplish?

If you don't get that music is for something, you may not understand this. Generally, those who don't will associate themselves with music either because it's a fascinating game for them to play, or because it serves as personality decoration.


----------



## Atelier

> I was talking about anachronism and you neither acknowledged my point nor really replied to it.


Your point is broken logic.

It's perfectly reasonable to call the Romans fascist even though the term wasn't coined until much later.

It's also acceptable to call modern people philistines even though they aren't literally philistines.

You can also call "modern classical music" classical music even though it's not literally classical music.

The same could be said of jazz: is modern jazz really jazz at all? It's completely divorced from its cultural origins. It's analogous to a bunch of older, affluent white men putting on grills and sideways Raiders hats and jabbering gangsta rap. Would that actually be gangsta rap? Or would it be something else, of equal cultural value?

Music is a collection of amorphous concepts that aren't particularly friendly to hairsplitting and binary pigeonholes. A whole lot comes from feel and the particular headspace the composer was in at the time.


----------



## Dedrater

That poster isn't interested in arguing about concepts. He's interested in arguing about words. He's taking an arbitrary collection of summations of reality from those words and applying them directly to other words, while purposely ignoring the more poignant aspects for the sake of being semantical. "Classical music often makes use of the oboe. Ever hear an oboe in a death metal song? Ha! You've lost the game."

No wonder it's so hard for most people to get past the surface of metal to see what it's actually doing -- it's difficult for them to appropriately interpret and respond to symbols.


----------



## Atelier

Well, you have to understand that these people are not as highly educated in Hessian Studies as we are. In fact, they have no clue that the field even exists, to say nothing of how obscure and esoteric it can be at times.

At the same time, it's interesting that:

1) they seem to have some trouble with verbal nuance. This is interesting because they're at least marginally intelligent and fairly well-educated. Perhaps they're highly educated in music but not so much in other subjects. I see this a lot in people of high ranking in martial arts. Hitting people on the head they're past masters of. Nuance? Not so much.

2) we're interested in and respectful of (some of) their music but they've greeted us with extreme disrespect. I'm sure they think of themselves as openminded.

I received a warning from the moderator for referring to one of these individuals as a hipster sophisticate or some cognate thereof. Apparently it's acceptable for them to call us stinking, ignorant yokels but "hipster sophisticate" is right out.

Apparently they feel the same way about hipsters as we do. Could it be? If the rockstar glasses and tight red girl's t-shirt fit, wear 'em.


----------



## Guest

This thread is going nowhere! Can any of the "metal heads" explain what form metal music uses in its construction and also the claimed similarity to classical music.


----------



## danae

Dedrater said:


> That poster isn't interested in arguing about concepts.


I have a feeling you are referring to me. If so, then I would appreciate it if you would use my name.


----------



## danae

Atelier said:


> Your point is broken logic.
> 
> It's perfectly reasonable to call the Romans fascist even though the term wasn't coined until much later.


In my language no it's not acceptable, at least not academically. The terms used to describe the Roman Empire vary from "totalitarianism" to "oligarchy" to etc... which I don't know about, since 'm not a historian.

But even if the term "fascist" could be applied to Ancient Rome, that doesn't necessarily legitimize your own use of the term "metal" for classical music. Probably because the definition of these 2 genres / kinds / styles etc have almost nothing in common.

Anyway, I think your initial remark that classical music is in fact metal, was said for the sole purpose to provoke, to make an impression.


----------



## Gangsta Tweety Bird

metal music is fine..... its the fans i dont like!


----------



## Atelier

> In my language no it's not acceptable, at least not academically. The terms used to describe the Roman Empire vary from "totalitarianism" to "oligarchy" to etc... which I don't know about, since 'm not a historian.


I spent years as a history major. The Roman Empire fulfilled all 14 characteristics of fascism, as defined by Hannah Arendt and Eric Hoffer. The fact that you would claim otherwise is telling.



> Anyway, I think your initial remark that classical music is in fact metal, was said for the sole purpose to provoke, to make an impression.


Except for the fact that that wasn't what I said. Is what I actually said so intimidating to you that you need to misquote me? Or did you completely misunderstand?


----------



## Atelier

> Can any of the "metal heads" explain what form metal music uses in its construction and also the claimed similarity to classical music.


There are many, many compositional techniques used by different artists. Some genres are completely unstructured-- nonperiodic even, almost. Others use rigid cyclic structures. Others still evolve over time in an organic way. That's one kind that I tend to like. Others still are incredibly repetitive, and the repetition becomes hypnotic. Some styles are intentionally forbidding and contemptuous.

You often hear classical guitar preludes and interludes. Some songs are similar to flamenco structures though not necessarily chord progressions.

It's a copout to say "You wouldn't understand" but I really do think that it's probably extremely inaccessible to people who haven't been listening to it for years and years. Part of it is the distortion, part of it is the vocals. At any rate, I don't think anybody expects you to suddenly drop what you're doing and start listening to what we do. We're interested in what you listen to because of how applicable some of it is to advanced metal compositions.

The reverse is almost certainly not true because you wouldn't want to convey the message that metal conveys. Your listeners wouldn't want to hear it.

I don't think anybody expects you to like it. You either do or you don't.


----------



## danae

Atelier said:


> I spent years as a history major. The Roman Empire fulfilled all 14 characteristics of fascism. The fact that you would claim otherwise is telling.
> Except for the fact that that wasn't what I said. Is what I actually said so intimidating to you that you need to misquote me? Or did you completely misunderstand?


I didn't claim otherwise. I said that in my language, which is greek by the way, the term "fascist" isn't generally used when referring to the Romans. Other terms are in use, of which I stated examples. Nowhere did I mention that the roman regime didn't have the characteristics of fascism.

Secondly, my apologies for the misquotation. You did say though that many classical composers were in fact writing metal music, which is the main point of our disagreement. And I stick by what I said about it: it seemed to me that you wanted to provoke.

Oh, and I forgot: please don't assume that I am intimidated by you in any way.


----------



## Atelier

> Oh, and I forgot: please don't assume that I am intimidated by you in any way.


Thus your calm friendliness, easygoing attitude and acceptance of views that may differ from yours.



> And I stick by what I said about it: it seemed to me that you wanted to provoke.


In other words, it's so unacceptable to you that even the insinuation that much classical is very similar to much metal is taken as a provocation. The key words there are "It seemed to me." Subjective...

Once again, your attitude is *fasci*nating.


----------



## danae

Atelier said:


> Thus your calm friendliness, easygoing attitude and acceptance of views that may differ from yours.
> In other words, it's so unacceptable to you that even the insinuation that much classical is very similar to much metal is taken as a provocation. The key words there are "It seemed to me." Subjective...
> Once again, your attitude is *fasci*nating.


I think that so far I've been fairly civil during our little debate. I 've even apologized to you for misquoting you. Yet I see that my "attitude" can -obviously- justify little cynical comments like your last phrase, for instance.
By the way, in my posts you won't find any type of personal attack, and I'm certainly not gonna call you a fascist through some ironic but very lame pun, as you did just now.


----------



## Atelier

> I'm certainly not gonna call you a fascist through some ironic but very lame pun, as you did just now.


I didn't call you a fascist. I'm just interested in etymology. If I'd wanted to insult you, I would have called you another synonym for "bundle of sticks."










I think I'm getting necroticising fasciitis.


----------



## bdelykleon

danae said:


> In my language no it's not acceptable, at least not academically. The terms used to describe the Roman Empire vary from "totalitarianism" to "oligarchy" to etc... which I don't know about, since 'm not a historian.
> 
> But even if the term "fascist" could be applied to Ancient Rome, that doesn't necessarily legitimize your own use of the term "metal" for classical music. Probably because the definition of these 2 genres / kinds / styles etc have almost nothing in common.
> 
> Anyway, I think your initial remark that classical music is in fact metal, was said for the sole purpose to provoke, to make an impression.


It is also completely absurd calling Ancient Sparta a "totalitarian" state even if they shared some similarities with the usual police state of the C20th. It is, like Ancient ROme, an Oligarchy, and you must understand the concepts both modern and ancient to really understand both regimes, without it "fascist", becomes only a derogatory term to the ones you don't like.

The fascists used Roman symbols to themselves, the fasces being symbols of consular power, Mussolini called for a new Roman Empire, but it doesn't make the Romans any more fascist, this is so obvious. The Nazi using the Swastika surely don't make them Ancient Indians, or Hitler calling his regime the Drittes Reich doesn't make Friedrich Barbarossa any Nazi...

AS for the question of what would Paganini have written now, it obviously is utterly stupid. Paganini maybe wouldn't being into classical, but he wouldn't also be into classical were he born in the 15th century. This is a non-question, the musical genre isn't characterized by the behavior of its members in a given time, but by its history and style. Metal has nothing to do with it, being a music for and by blue-collars without the least musical interest in itself, it has a rather fascinating social interest, but it is not the case.


----------



## Atelier

> it obviously is utterly stupid. Paganini maybe wouldn't being into classical


Oh, the irony. It burns.



> it doesn't make the Romans any more fascist, this is so obvious.


Except for the fact that they fulfilled the 14 characteristics of fascism. I'm very interested in the problems you gentlemen seem to be having with logical comparisons.



> It is also completely absurd calling Ancient Sparta a "totalitarian" state


Once again, ridiculous. Totalitarian is a term like "agrarian." So is fascist. They aren't specific terms like "whig."



> being a music for and by blue-collars


In your country it would be-- the music of teeming, reeking favelas. I'm sure hidalgos like you enjoy much more rarified pursuits while your sanitation squads abduct and murder street children. Also, another idea would be for you to get off the high horse and quit putting on airs.

The stench of the garbage dumps gives you away.


----------



## bdelykleon

Atelier said:


> Once again, ridiculous. Totalitarian is a term like "agrarian." So is fascist. They aren't specific terms like "whig.".


Not at all, a totalitarian state need the control of all sectors of the society, an Ancient society didn't have the means to do this. Even if the Spartans had the phrouroi, they were always afraid of a rebellion from the helotai. I recommend the famous Arendt book, The origins of Totalitarism, and you will see it has nothing to do with Ancient Rome.



Atelier said:


> In your country it would be-- the music of teeming, reeking favelas. I'm sure hidalgos like you enjoy much more rarified pursuits while your sanitation squads abduct and murder street children.


This is a charicatural picture you have of the country, and besides, in the favelas the music is so much more interesting than metal...


----------



## bdelykleon

Atelier said:


> Oh, the irony. It burns.


You just forgot the argument. It is about history, not behaviour.


----------



## Dedrater

danae said:


> I have a feeling you are referring to me. If so, then I would appreciate it if you would use my name.


Of course I was referring to you; the quote to which Atelier responded was yours. I didn't use your name because it didn't seem to matter either way to me: if I did use it, I wouldn't have expected anyone to care or to be incessantly formal in turn, and if I didn't use it, I also would not have expected this. Value-wise, both options were equally void, so I made a parsimonious decision.

In any case, this isn't about you, me, or anyone else, so to even bring this up is trivial.



bdelykleon said:


> It is also completely absurd calling Ancient Sparta a "totalitarian" state even if they shared some similarities with the *usual police state of the C20th.*


Emphasis added.

Not to get too far off topic, but after reading a recent Mirror Image post wherein he called into question the truthfulness of NASA, I have to marvel at this community's disposition toward conspiracies. Conspiracies are, on the whole, unjustified, as they ignore basic concepts of sequential logic like burden of proof. I can extrapolate this pattern that I'm starting to notice, then, and apply it to the music discussion taking place in threads like this one. Hopefully, this will help unbiased readers to understand the fundamental thought processes employed by the pedantic and paranoid, and what makes them both weak and afraid of reality.



> It is, like Ancient ROme, an Oligarchy, and you must understand the concepts both modern and ancient to really understand both regimes, without it "fascist", becomes only a derogatory term to the ones you don't like.


More irrelevant semantics. Would it satisfy all participants of this discussion to instead say the following:

1. Ancient Rome and fascist Italy placed the will of the collective above the will of individuals.

2. Some death and black metal utilizes complex phrasing and narrative composition similar in breadth and ideological aim (nationalism, power, heroism, death, sensuality) to some 17th-19th century Western traditional music.

By expanding the number of words we use, our understanding shifts from singular symbols to an augmented, more approximate depiction of the issue.



> This is a non-question, the musical genre isn't characterized by the behavior of its members in a given time, but by its history and style.


History and style? Try individual-centric experience used to make greater societal inferences; genetically and environmentally-shaped motivation; and innate musicality. Style is appearance -- something which, as stated previously, cannot be used solely to ascertain content.


----------



## bdelykleon

Dedrater said:


> Emphasis added.
> 
> Not to get too far off topic, but after reading a recent Mirror Image post wherein he called into question the truthfulness of NASA, I have to marvel at this community's disposition toward conspiracies. Conspiracies are, on the whole, unjustified, as they ignore basic concepts of sequential logic like burden of proof. I can extrapolate this pattern that I'm starting to notice, then, and apply it to the music discussion taking place in threads like this one. Hopefully, this will help unbiased readers to understand the fundamental thought processes employed by the pedantic and paranoid, and what makes them both weak and afraid of reality.


This has nothing to do with conspiracy theory, the twentieth century saw several states that can't be called in other way than police state. Isn't the East German with the Stasi a real police state, where almost every doing of its citizens was carefully overseen by the state.



Dedrater said:


> History and style? Try individual-centric experience used to make greater societal inferences; genetically and environmentally-shaped motivation; and innate musicality. Style is appearance -- something which, as stated previously, cannot be used solely to ascertain content.


"individual-centric experience" and " societal inferences" mean nothing. We are talking about art not about political movements. Haydn and Mozart had quite different "individual-centric experience" (whatever that means), but both made the same music. In art, form is everything.


----------



## bdelykleon

Dedrater said:


> 1. Ancient Rome and fascist Italy placed the will of the collective above the will of individuals.
> 
> 2. Some death and black metal utilizes complex phrasing and narrative composition similar in breadth and ideological aim (nationalism, power, heroism, death, sensuality) to some 17th-19th century Western traditional music.


1. This is quite a pedestrian interpretation of Ancient Rome. The leegies of Propertius have nothing to do with "the will of the collective above the will of individuals." Actually, being a classical scholar I know quite a bit about Roman history, and this statement would be quite absurd to any Roman, ie. there is no real sense of state before the rise of the 19th nation-state.

2. How similar? And which ideological aim has the 52nd sonata of Haydn?


----------



## Dedrater

bdelykleon said:


> This has nothing to do with conspiracy theory, the twentieth century saw several states that can't be called in other way than police state. Isn't the East German with the Stasi a real police state, where almost every doing of its citizens was carefully overseen by the state.


Fair enough, so long as you weren't referring to the United States.



> Haydn and Mozart had quite different "individual-centric experience" (whatever that means), but both made the same music. In art, form is everything.


Did they really? They were practically contemporaries, adhered to the same traditions, and were raised in similar socio-political environments. A lot of lesser composers were also their contemporaries, but taking a holistic stance, we quickly see that environment isn't anything without genetics. Regardless, if behavior and biological propensities have nothing to do with music as you plainly assert, then why were there so few musicians in the 18th century relative to the general population? Having completely different behavioral patterns but being near-universally interested in the musical _Zeitgeist_ of the day, why wasn't everyone a musician?

If art is part of way of life and flows outward from any reason for existing, and if form is not everything in way of life, it necessarily follows that form is not everything when it comes to music. Again, where's the holism? You can worry about whether a car is faster than its predecessor all you want, but what does that matter if you're not at all concerned with where you'll be going while driving it?

Besides, most official 18th century Classical music -- pre-Romantic, post-Baroque music -- is frivolous, aristocracy-serving decoration and was never intended to convey eternal universals or intense emotion. All that stuff was ascribed later by scholars with confirmation bias.

Sounds kind of like this forum, in a way.


----------



## Dedrater

bdelykleon said:


> 1. This is quite a pedestrian interpretation of Ancient Rome. The leegies of Propertius have nothing to do with "the will of the collective above the will of individuals." Actually, being a classical scholar I know quite a bit about Roman history, and this statement would be quite absurd to any Roman, ie. there is no real sense of state before the rise of the 19th nation-state.


Good thing I didn't mention nation-states, then!



> 2. How similar? And which ideological aim has the 52nd sonata of Haydn?


Cherry-picking. You ignored the relevant part (complex phrasing and narrative composition) and over-emphasized the irrelevant part (ideological aim).


----------



## Gangsta Tweety Bird

there is no more similarity between classical music and metal than between classical music and any other genre of pop. anyone who says otherwise is a metal head desperate to link there own preferences to some grand european tradition


----------



## Dedrater

Gangsta Tweety-Bird said:


> there is no more similarity between classical music and metal than between classical music and any other genre of pop. anyone who says otherwise is a metal head desperate to link there own preferences to some grand european tradition


Is there any native TalkClassical participant who does not share this obsession with form? I've yet to encounter one, which is disappointing.

For you, I recommend the thread started by Conservationist on subgenres.


----------



## bdelykleon

Dedrater said:


> Did they really? They were practically contemporaries, adhered to the same traditions, and were raised in similar socio-political environments. A lot of lesser composers were also their contemporaries, but taking a holistic stance, we quickly see that environment isn't anything without genetics. Regardless, if behavior and biological propensities have nothing to do with music as you plainly assert, then why were there so few musicians in the 18th century relative to the general population? Having completely different behavioral patterns but being near-universally interested in the musical _Zeitgeist_ of the day, why wasn't everyone a musician?


This paragraph borders on the nonsense, each sentense is unrelated to the other, I can really say it is hard to understand. But trying to give you a go, actually a fair larger part of the population was a musician, or had musical training, but I really say this begs the question.



Dedrater said:


> If art is part of way of life and flows outward from any reason for existing, and if form is not everything in way of life, it necessarily follows that form is not everything when it comes to music. Again, where's the holism? You can worry about whether a car is faster than its predecessor all you want, but what does that matter if you're not at all concerned with where you'll be going while driving it?


Nonsense. Like Mr. Wilde said to us, All art is quite useless, so it musn't existe beyond itself. What does the Well tempered clavier means? Nothing.



Dedrater said:


> Besides, most official 18th century Classical music -- pre-Romantic, post-Baroque music -- is frivolous, aristocracy-serving decoration and was never intended to convey eternal universals or intense emotion. All that stuff was ascribed later by scholars with confirmation bias.


Agreed, but art is not about emotion, but about enjoyment. So being not intended to convey eternal universals or emotion doesn't make it bad. So as Jazz has nothing to do with emotion, but is so much better than pompous pretentious metalheads who no nothing about music.


----------



## bdelykleon

Dedrater said:


> Cherry-picking. You ignored the relevant part (complex phrasing and narrative composition) and over-emphasized the irrelevant part (ideological aim).


Ok, "narrative form" isn't actually a characteristic of classical music. It is a rather fringe genre seldom used with mixed results. What is typical of classical is the dialectical or logical form, and sorry, Metal has nothing to do with this.


----------



## Mirror Image

Metal has nothing in common with classical music. Metal is inferior and Classical is superior, it's as simple as that.


----------



## Guest

Dedrater said:


> Is there any native TalkClassical participant who does not share this obsession with form? I've yet to encounter one, which is disappointing.


I don't think it is an obsession so much as basic structure, you should have a good foundation for any music/ art/ architecture etc, and sonata form is IMO the best yet in music, so any music without this basic, does not "again IMO" make the grade


----------



## bdelykleon

Oh yeah, modern classical music is not metal:





far superior.


----------



## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> I don't think it is an obsession so much as basic structure, you should have a good foundation for any music/ art/ architecture etc, and sonata form is IMO the best yet in music, so any music without this basic, does not "again IMO" make the grade


I agree with this. Metal doesn't make the cut, because it's just intellectually and emotionally juvenile. It has no history, no foundation, no music theory of it's own, etc. Metal is by far one of the worst genres imaginable.


----------



## bdelykleon

Mirror Image said:


> I agree with this. Metal doesn't make the cut, because it's just intellectually and emotionally juvenile. It has no history, no foundation, no music theory of it's own, etc. Metal is by far one of the worst genres imaginable.


I agree with you in this MI.


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> I agree with you in this MI.


Well, us "classicalheads" have to stick together...lol.


----------



## Conservationist

bdelykleon said:


> Ok, "narrative form" isn't actually a characteristic of classical music.


LOL, can we get some competent opposition please?


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> LOL, can we get some competent opposition please?


You are clueless about what narrative form means. Sonata form, or every classical and baroque form a is not narrative, it is logical and dialectical, but not narrative. As I said, narrative form is a quite small set of late forms, risen mainly in the 19th century as a response to the increasing programatical objectives of music like in the Pastolra symphony and the Symphonie Fantastique, but it only appears in its pure and unbridled form in Liszt tone poems.


----------



## Guest

Conservationist said:


> LOL, can we get some competent opposition please?


Why should we bother??? you don't answer with any specifics


----------



## Mirror Image

bdelykleon said:


> You are clueless about what narrative form means. Sonata form, or every classical and baroque form a is not narrative, it is logical and dialectical, but not narrative. As I said, narrative form is a quite small set of late forms, risen mainly in the 19th century as a response to the increasing programatical objectives of music like in the Pastolra symphony and the Symphonie Fantastique, but it only appears in its pure and unbridled form in Liszt tone poems.


Well said.


----------



## bassClef

Atelier said:


> Well, you have to understand that these people are not as highly educated in Hessian Studies as we are. In fact, they have no clue that the field even exists, to say nothing of how obscure and esoteric it can be at times.
> 
> At the same time, it's interesting that:
> 
> 1) they seem to have some trouble with verbal nuance. This is interesting because they're at least marginally intelligent and fairly well-educated. Perhaps they're highly educated in music but not so much in other subjects. I see this a lot in people of high ranking in martial arts. Hitting people on the head they're past masters of. Nuance? Not so much.
> 
> 2) we're interested in and respectful of (some of) their music but they've greeted us with extreme disrespect. I'm sure they think of themselves as openminded.
> 
> I received a warning from the moderator for referring to one of these individuals as a hipster sophisticate or some cognate thereof. Apparently it's acceptable for them to call us stinking, ignorant yokels but "hipster sophisticate" is right out.
> 
> Apparently they feel the same way about hipsters as we do. Could it be? If the rockstar glasses and tight red girl's t-shirt fit, wear 'em.


I almost missed this. You received a warning? Well good. What you actually said was "People like you are snobbish and stuck up with precious little justification. You're very highly invested in your opinion of yourself as a Velvet Underground sophisticate. In other words a hipster". While I chose to criticise the music you like (Entombed/Dismember/Carnage/VomitFoetus/etc), you decided to take it to a personal level, dissecting my general character just from my musical tastes, and that's not going to be tolerated. I called no-one an ignorant yokel - you're generalising us classical fans - you're already referring to "us" and "them" as though you're on some sort of crusade here. I've certainly seen no positive contributions from you.

No, I and probably many other classical music fans are not educted in "Hessian Studies" as you put it, but why should we be? This is a forum for discussing classical music, after all - death metal and it's ilk does not interest "us", not if it's anything like this:


----------



## danae

Despite the near hysterical negativity and the uncalled for personal attacks posted by Atelier and Dedrater, I think I have some idea about the issue of the connection between metal and classical music. 

Besides the obvious connection, which can be found between virtually every musical genre or even form of art, the two are linked by a common subject matter, but this seems to apply only to a specific era, namely the romantic 19th century. Subects like love and death, fairy-tales, ghosts, forests, magic, myth, are a large part of the mentality of the romantic artist.


----------



## Mirror Image

bassClef said:


> I almost missed this. You received a warning? Well good. What you actually said was "People like you are snobbish and stuck up with precious little justification. You're very highly invested in your opinion of yourself as a Velvet Underground sophisticate. In other words a hipster". While I chose to criticise the music you like (Entombed/Dismember/Carnage/VomitFoetus/etc), you decided to take it to a personal level, dissecting my general character just from my musical tastes, and that's not going to be tolerated. I called no-one an ignorant yokel - you're generalising us classical fans - you're already referring to "us" and "them" as though you're on some sort of crusade here. I've certainly seen no positive contributions from you.
> 
> No, I and probably many other classical music fans are not educted in "Hessian Studies" as you put it, but why should we be? This is a forum for discussing classical music, after all - death metal and it's ilk does not interest "us", not if it's anything like this:


Very well said.


----------



## Dedrater

bassClef said:


> What you actually said was "People like you are snobbish and stuck up with precious little justification. You're very highly invested in your opinion of yourself as a Velvet Underground sophisticate. In other words a hipster". While I chose to criticise the music you like (Entombed/Dismember/Carnage/VomitFoetus/etc), you decided to take it to a personal level, dissecting my general character just from my musical tastes, and that's not going to be tolerated.


I think it's acceptable to defend yourself from the image-obsessed from time to time. Here is a post of yours prior to being edited:



bassClef said:


> Snigger. And how old are you to be making such judgements?
> 
> Dismember? Carnage? Come on - hardly serious music for adults.


Here it is after being edited; it doesn't look any better or less personal:



bassClef said:


> Dont worry I had crap taste when I was 14 too.


Do you see what might have prompted that response? Are you able to take responsibility for your actions?



> I called no-one an ignorant yokel - you're generalising us classical fans


Resorting to personal mud-slinging and crass condescension is what you did -- without being challenged. Why aren't you able to understand that the yokel comment wasn't meant to be taken literally? Do you really think the poster believes that you called him one?

I also find it interesting that you've decided to ignore the advice that I've provided in numerous threads, and instead dualistically categorize everyone as 'classical fans' and 'metalheads.' Classical music is the highest, most sophisticated form of art created by us Europeans. Everyone, to some degree or another, likes classical here (except in cases where they're pretending).

Incase you missed them the first time:



Dedrater said:


> That's because you're defining people not in terms of where their starting points are in life, but by their association with the select works within a paradigm that happen to be of any worth. I can safely say that I don't "appreciate" classical music as a whole; instead, I find what seems expressive of certain ideals and motivations, because that takes precedence over the theoretical aspects.





Dedrater said:


> If you want to equate yourself with the music you like and consequently view an attack on your 'taste' (dumb word) as an attack on yourself, I can't help that.





> No, I and probably many other classical music fans are not educted in "Hessian Studies" as you put it, but why should we be?


Incapable of grasping metaphors and hyberbolic, jocular statements. Disappointing.



> This is a forum for discussing classical music, after all - death metal and it's ilk does not interest "us", not if it's anything like this:


Pseudo-tribal 'us vs. them' mentality, neglects personality-nuance, ignores positive commonalities in favor of contrastingly miniscule differences, commits the "this is not a metal forum" fallacy yet again despite this being a non-classical subforum. Again, disappointing.

I see that you don't like Nastassja in Eternal Sleep. Too noisy and directionless, you're likely to say. Out of curiosity, do you like Merzbow?


----------



## Dedrater

danae said:


> Despite the near hysterical negativity and the uncalled for personal attacks posted by Atelier and Dedrater, I think I have some idea about the issue of the connection between metal and classical music.


Our opposition:



bassClef said:


> Dont worry I had crap taste when I was 14 too.





Bach said:


> metalheads are ugly and gross...They all look brain dead (which they must be) and they all deserve to be shot.


I defy you to find posts of this nature in our posting histories.



> Besides the obvious connection, which can be found between virtually every musical genre or even form of art, the two are linked by a common subject matter, but this seems to apply only to a specific era, namely the romantic 19th century. Subects like love and death, fairy-tales, ghosts, forests, magic, myth, are a large part of the mentality of the romantic artist.


Thanks for the mostly constructive reply. We can discuss this further if, finally, someone is interested in doing so.


----------



## Aramis

Dedrater said:


> I see that you don't like Nastassja in Eternal Sleep. Too noisy and directionless, you're likely to say. Out of curiosity, do you like Merzbow?


Not noisy at all, just cheap and banal. There is also a very interesting music video, together it was so funny that I added it to my YT favourites.


----------



## Dedrater

Aramis said:


> Not noisy at all, just cheap and banal. There is also a very interesting music video, together it was so funny that I added it to my YT favourites.


While you're at it, go ahead and add this to your favorites. It was composed and performed by metal musicians in a side project inspired by Renaissance music. Quite hilarious!


----------



## bassClef

Dedrater said:


> I think it's acceptable to defend yourself from the image-obsessed from time to time. Here is a post of yours prior to being edited:
> 
> Here it is after being edited; it doesn't look any better or less personal:
> 
> Do you see what might have prompted that response? Are you able to take responsibility for your actions?
> 
> Resorting to personal mud-slinging and crass condescension is what you did -- without being challenged.


No, read it again, see who got personal first - all I said was an (admittedly tongue in cheek) "sounds lovely" and received a character assassination in return, a direct allegation that I know nothing and pretend to like certain genres of music just to appear "hip". You are quoting from my responses to that - I regret being drawn down close to his level, but still my responses weren't as personal or hateful as his, or yours come to that. And "without being challenged"? - I don't think so pal.


----------



## Conservationist

bassClef said:


> I called no-one an ignorant yokel - you're generalising us classical fans - you're already referring to "us" and "them" as though you're on some sort of crusade here.


Well, you've got to admit that it's the de facto standard here for people to sit around downing metal while praising trivial music like jazz, and the admins don't seem to mind there's a verbal pogrom in progress -- they sit around with thumbs up their asses!

You just joined the crusade for a few moments and now you're whining? Get a life!


----------



## danae

Dedrater said:


> Thanks for the mostly constructive reply. We can discuss this further if, finally, someone is interested in doing so.


a) You're welcome, b) yes, let's, and c) aparrently, someone is.


----------



## Conservationist

danae said:


> a) You're welcome, b) yes, let's, and c) aparrently, someone is.


I think we need to eliminate the idiots making knee-jerk biased statements about metal first, all while praising simplistic crap from jazz to pop.

I suggest a 9mm. What do you think?


----------



## danae

Conservationist said:


> I think we need to eliminate the idiots making knee-jerk biased statements about metal first, all while praising simplistic crap from jazz to pop.
> 
> I suggest a 9mm. What do you think?


Nah...I'm not a 9mm kind of girl...


----------



## Guest

Conservationist said:


> Well, you've got to admit that it's the de facto standard here for people to sit around downing metal while praising trivial music like jazz, and the admins don't seem to mind there's a verbal pogrom in progress -- they sit around with thumbs up their asses!
> 
> You just joined the crusade for a few moments and now you're whining? Get a life!


I wonder at times if you ever have a look at what you have posted, + you seem keen on telling people to *get a life* yet scream that no one should tell you what to do, I can't begin to imagine what kind of life you have


----------



## Conservationist

Andante said:


> I can't begin to imagine what kind of life you have


I don't trust your imagination or your analysis.


----------



## Guest

Conservationist said:


> I don't trust your imagination or your analysis.


That is typical of your replies, no substance


----------



## danae

Conservationist, I'm still here you know...


----------



## Conservationist

Andante said:


> That is typical of your replies, no substance


So YOU say. But do all of us trust your assessment? I sure as hell don't.

Danae: kiss me


----------



## danae

Conservationist said:


> Danae: kiss me


----------



## Conservationist

danae said:


>


Well, if you're going to stick around, we might as well participate in some metal activities:

* Blood
* War
* Destruction

and...............

* *SODOMY*


----------



## danae

Conservationist said:


> Well, if you're going to stick around, we might as well participate in some metal activities:
> 
> * Blood
> * War
> * Destruction
> 
> and...............
> 
> * *SODOMY*


Sorry, you lost me there. What do you mean?


----------



## Guest

Conservationist said:


> So YOU say. But do all of us trust your assessment? I sure as hell don't.


 I couldn't give a monky's...... about what you think


> Danae: kiss me


Trying to back down now


----------



## Conservationist

Andante said:


> I couldn't give a monky's...... about what you think


It's the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> It's the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


You are talking about you and your dream of "narrative form", lol...


----------



## Guest

Conservationist said:


> It's the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


I can't accept that as your excuse but it may be true, you just do not have the metacognitive ability to realize it
Wouldn't it be a change if you could actually talk about music


----------



## Conservationist

Andante said:


> Wouldn't it be a change if you could actually talk about music


Let's talk about metal music.


----------



## Guest

That's OK with me, for a start what form does it use? and can you give examples (written) not clips.


----------



## Guest

2 hours no reply, Where have you gone, is it too complicated or are you googling it


----------



## danae

Conservationist, where did you go?


----------



## Conservationist

I'm right here.


----------



## danae

OK, then. What's your take on my previous post linking the two genres through the common element of subject matter?


----------



## Conservationist

danae said:


> What's your take on my previous post linking the two genres through the common element of subject matter?


Metal and classical? Both descended from European Romanticism. Metal in particular is closest allied to the works of Blake, Wordsworth, Mary Shelley and Goethe, a heritage shared with much of Romantic music. In approach, metal is often more baroque.


----------



## danae

Conservationist said:


> In approach, metal is often more baroque.


 In what way?


----------



## Guest

Conservationist, you still evade answering so I take it that you can't
I may as well unsubscribe from this thread also, Bye


----------



## Conservationist

Andante said:


> Conservationist, you still evade answering so I take it that you can't


You can do whatever you want, but don't conflate ignoring you to being unable to answer that question. It's not a bad one, although from you it's a typical knee-jerk defensive response, but is the subject of a forthcoming article so I prefer to leave answers in that.


----------



## Conservationist

danae said:


> In what way?


Its sensibility reminds me more of baroque, especially the way it likes rigid almost tautological logical structures. Romantic is more relaxed; baroque may be more psychologically relaxing, which is why it seems to be very popular in this city at least.


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> Its sensibility reminds me more of baroque, especially the way it likes rigid almost tautological logical structures. Romantic is more relaxed; baroque may be more psychologically relaxing, which is why it seems to be very popular in this city at least.


 What are 'tautological logical structures' (sic)? I think you are trying to say with the usual ostinati of metal, well this is not a particularity of baroque. And psychologically relaxing is a quite subjective statement, and it means nothing musically. Metal has nothing to do with baroque.

And it is true that it comes from the romantic era, but it has nothing to do with Blake and the like. Metal comes from the Gebrauchsmusik of the 19th century music market which gave birth to the urban popular music and later to metal via rock, etc.


----------



## mbib

I like metal music but a bit my friend influence me in this kind of music.


----------



## Conservationist

bdelykleon said:


> And it is true that it comes from the romantic era, but it has nothing to do with Blake and the like. Metal comes from the Gebrauchsmusik of the 19th century music market which gave birth to the urban popular music and later to metal via rock, etc.


You have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about.


Yes I do. Prove me wrong, if not.


----------



## danae

Conservationist said:


> Its sensibility reminds me more of baroque, especially the way it likes rigid almost tautological logical structures. Romantic is more relaxed; baroque may be more psychologically relaxing, which is why it seems to be very popular in this city at least.


I can understand "logical structure" in the baroque *music* context (because baroque in visual arts and architecture is certainly not permeated by "logical structures"), but why "tautological"? I mean, in what way could baroque musical forms such as the _suite_, or the _fugue_ be characterized as tautological? Or are you not referring to form but to some other aspect of music?

Also, which city is "this city"?


----------



## bdelykleon

danae said:


> I can understand "logical structure" in the baroque *music* context (because baroque in visual arts and architecture is certainly not permeated by "logical structures"), but why "tautological"? I mean, in what way could baroque musical forms such as the _suite_, or the _fugue_ be characterized as tautological? Or are you not referring to form but to some other aspect of music?
> 
> Also, which city is "this city"?


Mabye because the ever repeating ground bass of a chaconne is "tautological", lol.


----------



## danae

bdelykleon said:


> Mabye because the ever repeating ground bass of a chaconne is "tautological", lol.


I don't know what he means, so I'll just wait untill he explains it. There may be aspects of music to which one can apply this term, and certainly the chaconne or the passacaglia structure isn't one of them. The only thing I can come up with is post-WWII music which utilizes a variety of structures and musical ideas that could be characterized as "tautological".


----------



## bdelykleon

danae said:


> I don't know what he means, so I'll just wait untill he explains it. There may be aspects of music to which one can apply this term, and certainly the chaconne or the passacaglia structure isn't one of them. The only thing I can come up with is post-WWII music which utilizes a variety of structures and musical ideas that could be characterized as "tautological".


I agree with you, but I think he was talking about metal riffs, which are quite repetitive. The closest thing in baroque to a riff is a ground bass, but it obviously is all too different in musical structure, a variation cannot be in any world "tautological".


----------



## Conservationist

bdelykleon said:


> Yes I do. Prove me wrong, if not.


People write articles to help, but you should listen to underground metal of a quality variety (Demilich, Incantation, Immolation, et al) to see how the music is composed first:

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/assimilation

If you're confusing this music with radio heavy metal like AC/DC, you will not understand because AC/DC fits the rock format, as does Led Zeppelin, while death metal and black metal have more in common with stuff like King Crimson or Tangerine Dream as to how they're composed.


----------



## TresPicos

Mirror Image said:


> I agree with this. Metal doesn't make the cut, because it's just intellectually and emotionally juvenile. It has no history, no foundation, no music theory of it's own, etc. Metal is by far one of the worst genres imaginable.


Well put! 

I really can't see any "connection" between the classical genre and the metal genre.


----------



## Conservationist

TresPicos said:


> I really can't see any "connection" between the classical genre and the metal genre.


Just because YOU can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there!


----------



## TresPicos

Conservationist said:


> Just because YOU can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there!


True. There are, of course, trivial connections like both being called "music" and them being each other's opposites quality-wise.


----------



## Conservationist

TresPicos said:


> There are, of course, trivial connections like both being called "music" and them being each other's opposites quality-wise.


What metal are you thinking of, specifically?


----------



## bdelykleon

Let's state differently, which metal you consider the greatest and most accomplished of the genre (please don't send me to anus)? Then we can discusse the qualities of metal.


----------



## Conservationist

bdelykleon said:


> Let's state differently, which metal you consider the greatest and most accomplished of the genre (please don't send me to anus)?


Why not? ANUS has an excellent "best of" list for each subgenre.


----------



## bdelykleon

Conservationist said:


> Why not? ANUS has an excellent "best of" list for each subgenre.


Just kidding, this name is so funny.


----------



## nickgray

Conservationist said:


> Why not? ANUS has an excellent "best of" list for each subgenre.


http://www.metal-archives.com/

Um, I think the phrase "Nuff said" would be appropriate.


----------



## Dedrater

TresPicos said:


> True. There are, of course, trivial connections like both being called "music" and them being each other's opposites quality-wise.


Have you ever listened to music from the 'ambient' genre? What do you think of the connections between it and classical, out of curiosity? If you haven't, I'm directing this question towards anyone who has, so that's fine.


----------



## Conservationist

nickgray said:


> http://www.metal-archives.com/
> 
> Um, I think the phrase "Nuff said" would be appropriate.


That's an extremely un-selective list.


----------



## Yoshi

I wasn't sure what to vote on the poll because I don't like it but I don't hate it either I guess. I just don't listen to it anymore actualy there's only one band that I listen to at the moment that can be considered metal.


----------



## Conservationist

Jan said:


> here's only one band that I listen to at the moment that can be considered metal.


Which is it?


----------



## Yoshi

Conservationist said:


> Which is it?


Within Temptation 
I think it's called gothic metal or something I'm not sure. But it's not noisy and I find the vocals quite beautiful.


----------



## Conservationist

Jan said:


> Within Temptation
> I think it's called gothic metal or something I'm not sure. But it's not noisy and I find the vocals quite beautiful.


Heh! Yep, I know of this.


----------



## Batrider

Many people say that they listen metal and that they love it and when you ask them which bands do you listen they say:Iron Maiden,Metallica,Slipknot,Korn;but that is not real metal,you are not real metalhead then.Black,death,trash,some heavy are real metal genres.But they have some bands which are too commercial.So listen good metal and be real metalhead


----------



## Eutow

tbh, I can't stand listening to metal. I generally don't like music that has suffered through dynamic range compression, either, which just about all of rock has.


----------



## Dim7

Batrider said:


> Many people say that they listen metal and that they love it and when you ask them which bands do you listen they say:Iron Maiden,Metallica,Slipknot,Korn;but that is not real metal,you are not real metalhead then.Black,death,trash,some heavy are real metal genres.But they have some bands which are too commercial.So listen good metal and be real metalhead


Why aren't these "real" metal? Because you don't like them?


----------



## Rondo

It's difficult for me to answer this question in a general manner. Yes, for some which don't sound as if it was written by a crazed derelict in a psych ward. In other words, the value of music should be based on more than just its 'head-banging quality'. The problem is when bands focus on too much on their ability to play fast, almost inhumanly-possible solos that the performance becomes more about them and their guitar or drum skills than about any kind of 'music' they are _supposedly_ producing.


----------



## Conservationist

Rondo said:


> The problem is when bands focus on too much on their ability to play fast, almost inhumanly-possible solos that the performance becomes more about them and their guitar or drum skills than about any kind of 'music' they are _supposedly_ producing.


I agree, although not all fast solos fit this category. I think the mainstream bands are more prone to this.

Death metal is not very individualistic, at least. It's about the music produced by a group, not the individual performer.


----------



## shurid_gh

I'm a huge fan of metal music. I enjoy it very much. My favorite band is Megadeh.


----------



## nimmysnv

I like pretty much all of the genres and sub genres of metal including Brutal Death Metal. I can't even imagine life without music.
Thanks


----------



## Lukecash12

Lisztfreak said:


> I really don't like it. It is mostly noise, not music.


Precisely.


----------



## scytheavatar

Quite frankly, to say that metal is mostly noise is no different from saying that classical music is mostly elevator music. That's something which I think all classical fans should be able to understand, if you carry some stupid stereotype about what metal is you'll never learn to appreciate it, and missing out on the music of Judas Priest or Megadeth is just like missing out on the music of Beethoven and Mahler. There are good metal songs and there are bad metal songs, just like how there are good classical music songs and bad classical music songs. Some of these guys don't know what they are doing and indeed make noise, but the best metal artists make great music which I think anyone can enjoy - as long as they don't convince themselves that there's no way they will enjoy it.

Rather than to go into the useless argument about how metal and classical music is related I think I'll just post some videos of my favourite metal songs and let you guys be the judge if metal is really noise:


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Quite frankly, to say that metal is mostly noise is no different from saying that classical music is mostly elevator music. That's something which I think all classical fans should be able to understand, if you carry some stupid stereotype about what metal is you'll never learn to appreciate it, and missing out on the music of Judas Priest or Megadeth is just like missing out on the music of Beethoven and Mahler.

















I'll just post some videos of my favourite metal songs and let you guys be the judge if metal is really noise:











etc...

Yep... Noise.


----------



## emiellucifuge

I heartily disagree. Metal is by no means noise, like classical it is a lot harder to appreciate and you will never be able to if you dont try.

I still maintain the opinion, however, that classical is a thousand miles beyond heavy metal.
(i.e. classical wins over metal many many times)


----------



## Lukecash12

Umm.. let's see... It doesn't take any more than a half a years worth of harmony class, and maybe a little theory behind the scales, to decide that metal is rudimentary, poorly orchestrated, rarely individualistic enough. There are exceptions (although I'm not all that impressed at the exceptions), but most of what I have seen (and trust me, I've seen everything from the Nirvana to Coheed and Cambria to Megadeth to Nitro to Kiss to Styx to All That Remains to know) is nothing more than "well, that sounds cool. Let's use that for now..."

Music can have plenty of humor in it (Alkan is a prime example), and it doesn't necessarily have to take itself entirely serious, but I don't appreciate deconstructing everything without any philosophical premise other than the nostalgia of a 14 year old. Metal doesn't seem to communicate much of anything but make believe images, and a lack of perspective.


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

Well I really can't stand this symphonic metal, black metal, speed metal or any new metal at all. 
But I do like good classic metal. I see classical music as a lobster dinner. Even if you've had a good lobster dinner you can never be to goody goody to eat a hamburger. I like metal. If you could say that metal is just noise then you would have to say The Beatles or Pink Floyd was just noise. Really, metal has some good moments. Bands like Slipknot have been ruining those moments but not all metal is rubbish. Metal was amazing before Screamo, goth, and power metal bands took over. 

I agree that is very simplistic, but it still has it's moments. Not all orchestrated music is good either. Just look at those god awful musicals and broadway. 

As a person that has heard the most complex music and the most simplistic music, I still like metal.

Sometimes a good 4 chord heavy metal song is what makes a day better. Too much of a good thing get's boring. Metal is an escape.


----------



## Gangsta Tweety Bird

music is mostly just noise


----------



## Lukecash12

Music, my friend, is constituted entirely by implications.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Hey Luke Cash, i didnt have in mind any of those bands you mentioned, Im talking about technical death metal ,necrophagist, deeds of flesh stuff which is quite obscure.

Anyway I will agree with you in some points, Metal may not have interesting Harmony, it is not orchestrated at all (there is no orchestra duh...), but the rhythms are amazingly complex. MEtal musicians may not be expert music theorists, but they sure know how to work with rhythm.


----------



## Lukecash12

I don't necessarily think so. We might all agree that Beethoven, and _especially_ Scriabin, worked with rhythms that were exponentially more rewarding. Any rhythmic device you might find in metal has most likely been used only for a bit of cheap nostalgia.

Honestly, you can even tell by the names of these groups that metal is constituted entirely by make believe figures, unfounded emotions, and pride that is grossly out of place. But I don't want to generalize anyone, so there may be a few actual musicians in metal. Hopefully those folks realize they are caught up in a mess of brain-dead activities, and try to do something substantial. Is it asking too much to hope for a human being to think? We were kind of made to do exactly that, and it's been proven that people who appreciate their lives enough to constantly learn something new are at a markedly low risk of Alzheimer's.


----------



## Patchman

> Hopefully those folks realize they are caught up in a mess of brain-dead activities, and try to do something substantial. Is it asking too much to hope for a human being to think? We were kind of made to do exactly that


I won't try to respond to a lot of these ignorant posts dressed up in pretty language as certain notions and arguments here are totally mind dependent and easily debunked, but it would take a wall of text and time I don't have, I think it should be obvious anyway. But I would like to say that one's taste in music has almost no bearing in one's intelligence if at all, and I do find it offensive that some of you think a man who listens to a certain style has a hard time thinking when you don't know much about it (lightly scanning through groups and cherry picking those who give a negative image to the genre is not being knowledgeable about it, and no you don't know enough anyway, your statements are proof of that), I mean, look up anything by William Grim, specially his article about the death of Dimebag Darrel, that's a man of refined musical taste for sure, doesn't mean he was an insensitive bigot and a religious nut (not trying to offend people of faith, a religious nut is different than a religious person, but if it fits). Everyone can be an idiot regardless of what artistic mush they like or of what touches their blood pumping organ known as heart, it doesn't matter how many words one uses to cover it up, I'm sure most have "rl funneh" typed before searching for a proper replacement like "Delightfully hilarious!".

On metal just being noise ( and yes music is just noise, sorry to say, organized in different patterns, but noises at the end, the individual will decide what it conveys, it being romanticized is another thing, graffiti has been romanticized, but it's still vandalism if you draw Goya's black paintings in private property. A highly regarded genre such as jazz used to be nothing more but loud, idiotic music that took those properties from it's creators, except it being drug addicted and black of course, to a lot of people, and then the newer styles were just noise to people like Louis Armstrong, but now it's just the bomb and it's high art and whatnot (I always try to imagine the hilarious results of people who enjoy jazz but use this kind of "it's just noise" statements in the earlier years of the style, doesn't have anything to do with you but it's just something o throw out there).

As for expanding horizons I would make the case of it being ironic here but I don't know what other things you listen to.

And finally, no we're not made to think, it is by no means a bad thing, but we were meant to consume and reproduce, other things are side effects, deviations, not that it's a bad thing, just a correction (and even if we were, metal is not devoid of thinking men or complex music, to me it doesn't matter anyway, but it's just a fact), and as I said, there are people who very much appreciate supposedly deep music, paintings, books and such, but cannot grasp that 2+2=4, objectivity, and other such basic, logical things, to put it simply.

And yes sorry if i come across as aggressive and maybe too sensitive, but I have explained why I feel the way I do.


----------



## Lukecash12

It has become apparent that I've become involved in another "argument". So, I think I'll just have to decline from this one (however fun it is to debate on the semantics).


----------



## Saturnus

I like a tiny fragment of metal (the norwegian band *Mayhem*) but I dislike metal in general, it's 99% of the time one of the following: badly composed (over-repetitive and cheap musical structures), pretentious, dreadfully cliché-ridden or simply lameness in it's purest form. 
When I'm in the mood for dark and rhythmical music I rather listen to Bartók.


----------



## ConcertVienna

come on, *Concervationist*, don't be mean! I love both metal and jazz!


----------



## Il Seraglio

ConcertVienna said:


> come on, *Concervationist*, don't be mean! I love both metal and jazz!


Not both together I hope.


----------



## Lukecash12

Patchman said:


> I won't try to respond to a lot of these ignorant posts dressed up in pretty language as certain notions and arguments here are totally mind dependent and easily debunked, but it would take a wall of text and time I don't have, I think it should be obvious anyway. But I would like to say that one's taste in music has almost no bearing in one's intelligence if at all, and I do find it offensive that some of you think a man who listens to a certain style has a hard time thinking when you don't know much about it (lightly scanning through groups and cherry picking those who give a negative image to the genre is not being knowledgeable about it, and no you don't know enough anyway, your statements are proof of that), I mean, look up anything by William Grim, specially his article about the death of Dimebag Darrel, that's a man of refined musical taste for sure, doesn't mean he was an insensitive bigot and a religious nut (not trying to offend people of faith, a religious nut is different than a religious person, but if it fits). Everyone can be an idiot regardless of what artistic mush they like or of what touches their blood pumping organ known as heart, it doesn't matter how many words one uses to cover it up, I'm sure most have "rl funneh" typed before searching for a proper replacement like "Delightfully hilarious!".
> 
> On metal just being noise ( and yes music is just noise, sorry to say, organized in different patterns, but noises at the end, the individual will decide what it conveys, it being romanticized is another thing, graffiti has been romanticized, but it's still vandalism if you draw Goya's black paintings in private property. A highly regarded genre such as jazz used to be nothing more but loud, idiotic music that took those properties from it's creators, except it being drug addicted and black of course, to a lot of people, and then the newer styles were just noise to people like Louis Armstrong, but now it's just the bomb and it's high art and whatnot (I always try to imagine the hilarious results of people who enjoy jazz but use this kind of "it's just noise" statements in the earlier years of the style, doesn't have anything to do with you but it's just something o throw out there).
> 
> As for expanding horizons I would make the case of it being ironic here but I don't know what other things you listen to.
> 
> And finally, no we're not made to think, it is by no means a bad thing, but we were meant to consume and reproduce, other things are side effects, deviations, not that it's a bad thing, just a correction (and even if we were, metal is not devoid of thinking men or complex music, to me it doesn't matter anyway, but it's just a fact), and as I said, there are people who very much appreciate supposedly deep music, paintings, books and such, but cannot grasp that 2+2=4, objectivity, and other such basic, logical things, to put it simply.
> 
> And yes sorry if i come across as aggressive and maybe too sensitive, but I have explained why I feel the way I do.


And put an awful lot of words in my mouth. Sure, System of a Down may have fantastic lyrics from time to time. They may even write some of the best lyrics in my opinion.

But the music is pointless. Try saying I haven't studied such and such a band. Obviously you aren't aware how obsessive I am. I am no great He-Man of music. Nor am I an _elitist_. There is no stereotyping here. Metal, from a musical standpoint, rarely has a full set of well developed emotions. It's just not thoughtful enough for me. How can anyone stomach such extreme mello-drama? Go ahead, give me example after example. It's like trying to give a six year old a thumbs up because he's figured out how to strum a guitar.

There may also be fantastic techniques in Metal. But what do they use it for? You really call that thinking about your music?


----------



## Ignis Fatuus

Lukecash12 said:


> But the music is pointless.


What is the point of music?

And how to SoaD not achieve this?


----------



## StlukesguildOhio

Lukecash... we may not agree on Scriabin (although I admittedly am far from disliking him) but it appears we are of the same mind when it comes to metal.


----------



## Lukecash12

Ignis Fatuus said:


> What is the point of music?
> 
> And how to SoaD not achieve this?


What is the point of music? It reflects the individual. If music reflects being annoying, pigheaded, abrasive, ignorant, and overemotional, than what is the point of it? If you met a person who hasn't nearly fully developed his/her perspective on things, and he/she decided to ram it in your face and wanted tons of credit for it, would you not be irritated?


----------



## The Cosmos

I'll be honest and say that I'm not a fan of metal at all, but, it does have it's time and place sometimes. Usually when I'm not in the mood for artsy-fartsy stuff, I just blast out a couple of tunes by angel witch or pagan altar. But then again, this happens rarely. So yeah, might as well forget about it .

But one thing I NEVER really got - why are many metalheads so darn insistent on only listening to metal? And then go on to make a point on kwlt it is, with it's 4343456 pointless-sub genres. The music might be good, but seriously, some of those genres makes me want to throw up.



Lukecash12 said:


> And put an awful lot of words in my mouth. Sure, System of a Down may have fantastic lyrics from time to time. They may even write some of the best lyrics in my opinion.
> 
> But the music is pointless. Try saying I haven't studied such and such a band. Obviously you aren't aware how obsessive I am. I am no great He-Man of music. Nor am I an _elitist_. There is no stereotyping here. Metal, from a musical standpoint, rarely has a full set of well developed emotions. It's just not thoughtful enough for me. How can anyone stomach such extreme mello-drama? Go ahead, give me example after example. It's like trying to give a six year old a thumbs up because he's figured out how to strum a guitar.
> 
> There may also be fantastic techniques in Metal. But what do they use it for? You really call that thinking about your music?


I think it's a direct by-product of our modern society. Just pure entertainment value and nothing more (which isn't bad once in a while I suppose). Unfortunately, a big portion of the film industry too now-a-days works on the same basis, with a bunch melo dramatic nonsense (I saw 2012 recently, and ewwww, that film made me laugh unstoppably in a bad way). But hey, I'm more along the lines of the 'Don't care' category. Not here to dictate what others should or shouldn't listen to.


----------



## Argus

I agree that most metalheads are the most close minded kind of music listeners and only listen to metal but that's not as annoying as people who refer to music they don't like as noise.

There is enough metal out there today that I find it hard to believe that someone can't find at least a few bands they like. I will admit I only listen to a few metal bands, mainly Black Sabbath and similar doom/stoner bands and the occasional Megadeth or Opeth listen. It might be that I play both electric and classical guitar so I can appreciate the musicianship required in a Marty Friedman solo as much as a Barrios-Mangore tremolo piece.

Metal is nowhere near one of my preferred styles of music, far behind Classical, Jazz and Rock, but sometimes I'm just in the mood for some serious riffage and blistering solos.

Anyway, I want StlukesguildOhio's opinion on this song as I know he's a massive fan of the voice.






And this one is for Lukecash12. Enjoy.






Not everything has to complex or intricate.


----------



## Ignis Fatuus

I totally agree, Argus. I'm not a metalhead at all. But some early System of a Down really affect me to the core.


----------



## Ignis Fatuus

I just read a study about the musicial 'frisson' - a pleasureable reaction with similarities to the fear reacton, shiver, chill, goosbumps.

If found that a large causal factor was a sudden change in dynmics from quiet to loud. Other factors seemed to be a braodening of frequency range, the introduction of new instruments, the return of a melody/theme/motif, an abrupt change of tempo or rhythm, a new of unprepared harmony, abrupt modulations, or a sudden change in texture. Sad music is deemed twice as likely to cause musical frisson, than happy.

I'd say some metal music is perfectly correlated to this list.


----------



## Lukecash12

Argus said:


> I agree that most metalheads are the most close minded kind of music listeners and only listen to metal but that's not as annoying as people who refer to music they don't like as noise.
> 
> There is enough metal out there today that I find it hard to believe that someone can't find at least a few bands they like. I will admit I only listen to a few metal bands, mainly Black Sabbath and similar doom/stoner bands and the occasional Megadeth or Opeth listen. It might be that I play both electric and classical guitar so I can appreciate the musicianship required in a Marty Friedman solo as much as a Barrios-Mangore tremolo piece.
> 
> Metal is nowhere near one of my preferred styles of music, far behind Classical, Jazz and Rock, but sometimes I'm just in the mood for some serious riffage and blistering solos.
> 
> Anyway, I want StlukesguildOhio's opinion on this song as I know he's a massive fan of the voice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this one is for Lukecash12. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not everything has to complex or intricate.


What's up with good music being "artsy fartsy" (The Cosmos) and intricate? Clearly, the music that is good is seen that way because it has content that is actually valuable and worth both enjoying and learning from.

Metal (from the classics to the hectic schematics we see today) isn't bereft of good music at all, but I don't find it appropriate at all to give a pat on the back to the genre in general. The current mainstream dogma of music isn't something that should just grow on people who seriously study music. If I want to sit back and have a good time, I'll listen to the genius orchestrations of Queen, or Schumann's Carnaval's by the same token.

I'm sorry, but the Funeral piece didn't do that much. I'll be sure to study it more when I have the time. It sounds like it might have something promising to say.


----------



## Ignis Fatuus

Lukecash12 said:


> If I want to sit back and have a good time, I'll listen to the genius orchestrations of Queen, or Schumann's Carnaval's by the same token.


If you want to sit back and have a good time, then metal is clearly not the right choice (but then again neither is much classical music!) It's about sheer energy. When I'm out running, if I have the Quake II soundtrack playing in my ears, I will run faster and longer (scientifically tested). On occasion the music mixes with the adrenaline and I work up an undescribable feeling - something like fear - but the good kind you get from watching horror films. As much as I love Carnivale, it doesn't inspire awe in me in the same way.

It's definitely a raw kind of feeling that I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding, but you have to at least understand the effect it has on its fans.


----------



## Lukecash12

I understand the effect entirely. But it's just physical stimulus. It's like saying a cold piece of pavement is wonderful just because it hits you pretty hard when you land on it. There just isn't anything truly human sentimental about the current dogma of music. Dare I say, it's tossed out lackluster, and is apparently useless. What do I care if I can run faster while listening to Quake II? Should I give the composer a consolation prize for utterly failing at music?

Is it so much to afford principles? But you do have some valid points there, so thanks for sharing.


----------



## Ignis Fatuus

Lukecash12 said:


> I understand the effect entirely. But it's just physical stimulus.


I'm not sure what exactly you mean. Yes, it's just sound waves entering the ear, and interpretation by the brain. That is true of all music.

Do you mean to say that it is a raw kind effect, and there for not on a par with proper music. For me, I get similar stumilation from the Rite of Spring and ever the Psycho soundtrack. I'm assuming you consider at least one of these to be worthy of respect.



> There just isn't anything truly human sentimental about the current dogma of music. Dare I say, it's tossed out lackluster, and is apparently useless.


What does this mean? The music is tossed lacklustre out or the dogma? What is human sentiment?



> What do I care if I can run faster while listening to Quake II? Should I give the composer a consolation prize for utterly failing at music?


I don't understand how it can so definitely be considered a failure at music? I challenge you to definine music, then define what makes music good, and then show how such music fails. Then at least we can be talking on equal terms.


----------



## Lukecash12

Ignis Fatuus said:


> I'm not sure what exactly you mean. Yes, it's just sound waves entering the ear, and interpretation by the brain. That is true of all music.
> 
> Do you mean to say that it is a raw kind effect, and there for not on a par with proper music. For me, I get similar stumilation from the Rite of Spring and ever the Psycho soundtrack. I'm assuming you consider at least one of these to be worthy of respect.
> 
> What does this mean? The music is tossed lacklustre out or the dogma? What is human sentiment?
> 
> I don't understand how it can so definitely be considered a failure at music? I challenge you to definine music, then define what makes music good, and then show how such music fails. Then at least we can be talking on equal terms.


How many times do I have to define music for everyone? Like all well developed art, it is specific and emotional reflection of the individual who made it. Saying we should give commendations to poorly made music is like saying we need to find every bumbling idiot, and rather than help him/her actually develop an appropriate thought process that isn't utterly barbaric, we should give him/her a pat on the back and say they make important contributions to people as a whole?

When I say it's nothing but physical stimulus I say that there is no intuitive connection to the person who wrote it. It's doing nothing more than changing your mood on a basic level, exciting your "fight or flight" set of instincts.

I listen to a good composer, and I hear sonorous chords and thick harmonies, and from that I derive self contentment, the pleasure of the connection between people. Of course, you listen to Beethoven, and you hear vengeful, exacting angst, dense and full of different figures, fleeting concepts and emotional figures passing one another contrapuntally. You listen to Sumera and you hear meditation, appreciation of one's surroundings, patience, and firm character prevailing above it.

Now, we listen to poorly made music that has educated itself with no more than the current dogma that barely knows how to use anything more than relative minors, a few modes, occasional chromatics, 4/4, 3/4, 2/4, or cut time signatures. Nothing in the realm of orchestration, rarely any use of 6ths rather than 3rds, etc. It screams predictability, aggressive overuse of repetitive effects (heavy handed chords, overly sweeping dynamics, etc.), and never uses anything for a specific reason. Made simply to feel good or sound "cool". What emotional context are we supposed to get out of it. Do we really want to feel such unbalanced, out of context thought processes and actually try to say they are valid for something, that we get something out of them? It's like drinking until you can't think straight, and calling it a reliable and enjoyable way to see things.


----------



## David58117

Lukecash12 said:


> When I say it's nothing but physical stimulus I say that there is no intuitive connection to the person who wrote it. It's doing nothing more than changing your mood on a basic level, exciting your "fight or flight" set of instincts. I listen to a good composer, and I hear sonorous chords and thick harmonies, and from that I derive self contentment, the pleasure of the connection between people.


Really? So by hearing symphonic instruments playing an A Major chord with a melody over it, you develop some kind of personal connection to the composer that you can't possibly get from hearing the same chord played by, maybe an American Strat (because I love mine) with bass and vocals singing the melody? That's quite a talent you got there.



Lukecash12 said:


> Of course, you listen to Beethoven, and you hear vengeful, exacting angst, dense and full of different figures, fleeting concepts and emotional figures passing one another contrapuntally. Now, we listen to poorly made music that has educated itself with no more than the current dogma that barely knows how to use anything more than relative minors, a few modes, occasional chromatics, 4/4, 3/4, 2/4, or cut time signatures. Nothing in the realm of orchestration, rarely any use of 6ths rather than 3rds, etc. It screams predictability, aggressive overuse of repetitive effects (heavy handed chords, overly sweeping dynamics, etc.), and never uses anything for a specific reason.


If you study music at all, you might wanna go back and read about something called the American popular song form, rather than condemning a whole genre that relies on it. If that list is what you're expecting out the verse-bridge-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus song format or its variant, then you're completely misunderstanding the form.

Personally, I don't believe people generally change. That same "angst" feeling you describe of Beethoven is the same that many Metal musicians feel when they pick up their instruments and begin to write their song. There are many "masterpieces" within the genre, but if you can't get past a bias against the instrumentation and song structure, of course you're not going to hear them. That's the same for any music though.


----------



## Lukecash12

Thanks for putting words in my mouth Go ahead and say I have a bias against specific instruments or effects. Prove that you can't look at this from an objective standpoint and try to be vindictive towards me.



> So by hearing symphonic instruments playing an A Major chord with a melody over it, you develop some kind of personal connection to the composer that you can't possibly get from hearing the same chord played by, maybe an American Strat (because I love mine) with bass and vocals singing the melody?


As for that remark, you are drawing unfounded assumptions. And if you were more familiar with me (I won't blame you for not already being aware of this), you would know that I've commented a few times that it doesn't matter what effect or sound you produce from an instrument. Much more important is how you use the qualities of the instrument to reflect your own musings. Yes, an A major chord that has been well arranged and spread out a bit, with light contrapuntal figures lighting it up gives forth the idea of maybe, let's say domestic fulfillment, morally derived pleasure, positive connotations towards one's immediate human surroundings?

And Queen orchestrating the same chord can be reminiscent of ecstasy, passion, or more often than not reflect the disposition of the lyrics.



> Personally, I don't believe people generally change. That same "angst" feeling you describe of Beethoven is the same that many Metal musicians feel when they pick up their instruments and begin to write their song. There are many "masterpieces" within the genre, but if you can't get past a bias against the instrumentation and song structure, of course you're not going to hear them. That's the same for any music though.


No, entirely different, period. Beethoven can be gentle, thoughtful, stark, supremely aggressive on so many levels. A few chords struck with some sort of haphazard gusto don't even compare to the balance Beethoven's actual angst possesses. You can just hear his justifications, his turmoil and depth of examination. Sadly, he wasn't a happy person. And it seems we can see exactly how, if not why, he took a negative perspective on a lot of things. Good music actually reflects the individual, not some spur of the moment "genius" idea that's supposed to give something intangible and bereft of sense.



> If you study music at all, you might wanna go back and read about something called the American popular song form, rather than condemning a whole genre that relies on it. If that list is what you're expecting out the verse-bridge-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus song format or its variant, then you're completely misunderstanding the form.


Oh no, my friend, go ahead and make art in whatever way you wish. Just don't affiliate yourself with a genre that generally isn't well thought out, and simply doesn't reflect the composer enough. There is no best or even better composer as long as the person's perspective is actually put out there. Also, on second thought, I do on some levels kind of condemn the idea of verse-bridge-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus. Whatever happened to going out into uncharted territory? Slight variations and stone age ideas of tonality that merely serve as a cushion, along with a few simple progressions that meld together in the most basic of ways doesn't count as art actually made by the individual. That is art made by several people who had no idea what they were doing, or even cared to know. A lot of this stuff gives a bad name to great minimalists who isolate elements and bring out their inherent qualities rather than just jumble them about and try to make a big hit.

I would never condemn an artist, but I have no problem with listening to absolutely every metal band (and trust me, I have. My brother and I listen to it all to find those diamonds in the rough) and concluding that the genre, for the most part, is a scandalous failure of something that could be truly great.


----------



## Ignis Fatuus

This is why we can't argue against you. You seem to be confused and contradictory. I literally cannot be bothered to find the quotes but you have said things such as this:

1) Music reflects the composer, and therefore metal music is bad because the composer is obnoxious, therefore the music is obnoxious.
2) Metal music is bad because it doesn't reflect the composer enough.


----------



## David58117

Lukecash12 said:


> Thanks for putting words in my mouth Go ahead and say I have a bias against specific instruments or effects. Prove that you can't look at this from an objective standpoint and try to be vindictive towards me.


Here's your quote from the previous post:



Lukecash12 said:


> Now, we listen to poorly made music that has educated itself with no more than the current dogma that barely knows how to use anything more than relative minors, a few modes, occasional chromatics, 4/4, 3/4, 2/4, or cut time signatures. Nothing in the realm of orchestration, rarely any use of 6ths rather than 3rds, etc. It screams predictability, aggressive overuse of repetitive effects (heavy handed chords, overly sweeping dynamics, etc.), and never uses anything for a specific reason.


Totally unbiased, huh? Why do you expect orchestration in a metal song? Why would they need to use complex time sigs and harmonies when the main instrument is a vocalist? And songs are meant to be repetitive so they can be followed. They have lyrics you realize, which generally follow a form.

You talk about Beethoven, but I have a feeling you're not thinking of his actual *song cycles* when you do.



Lukecash12 said:


> As for that remark, you are drawing unfounded assumptions. And if you were more familiar with me (I won't blame you for not already being aware of this), you would know that I've commented a few times that it doesn't matter what effect or sound you produce from an instrument. Much more important is how you use the qualities of the instrument to reflect your own musings.


Are you kidding? You just complained above that metal music uses a much too basic level of theory, repetitive structures that "scream predictability"...you even somehow manage to dock it for not having any orchestration (duh?), and compain about standard time sigs...and then within the same post you say "it doesn't matter what sound or effect you produce from an instrument, much more important is how you use the qualities of the instrument to reflect your own musings."

Apparently it matters immensely what sound or effect it's producing.



Lukecash12 said:


> Yes, an A major chord that has been well arranged and spread out a bit, with light contrapuntal figures lighting it up gives forth the idea of maybe, let's say domestic fulfillment, morally derived pleasure, positive connotations towards one's immediate human surroundings?
> 
> And Queen orchestrating the same chord can be reminiscent of ecstasy, passion, or more often than not reflect the disposition of the lyrics.


I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't know HOW to listen to metal music. When I listen to Judas Priest or Iron Maiden, I'm not using the same ears I do as when I'm focusing on a symphony. There is SO much more going on within the symphony (usually). And to expect 4/5 guys in a metal band having the same musical interplay as a 100 piece orchestra is, well...do you really expect that?



Lukecash12 said:


> No, entirely different, period. Beethoven can be gentle, thoughtful, stark, supremely aggressive on so many levels. A few chords struck with some sort of haphazard gusto don't even compare to the balance Beethoven's actual angst possesses. You can just hear his justifications, his turmoil and depth of examination. Sadly, he wasn't a happy person. And it seems we can see exactly how, if not why, he took a negative perspective on a lot of things. Good music actually reflects the individual, not some spur of the moment "genius" idea that's supposed to give something intangible and bereft of sense.


Okay...so Beethoven felt a special kind of angst that no one else ever felt since? All I said was essentially:

A: People don't change, only environment. 
B: The same emotions Beethoven channeled into his compositions, are the same that musicians today are using. 
C: Angst is a component of Metal music.

And that caused you to reply with "no, entirely different." Huh?

Believe it or not, but many more musicians than just Beethoven are unhappy and channel that into their music.



Lukecash12 said:


> Also, on second thought, I do on some levels kind of condemn the idea of verse-bridge-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus. Whatever happened to going out into uncharted territory? Slight variations and stone age ideas of tonality that merely serve as a cushion, along with a few simple progressions that meld together in the most basic of ways doesn't count as art actually made by the individual.


I think we all suspected you did. But anyway, I'll leave you with your quote:



Lukecash12 said:


> if you were more familiar with me (I won't blame you for not already being aware of this), you would know that I've commented a few times that it doesn't matter what effect or sound you produce from an instrument. Much more important is how you use the qualities of the instrument to reflect your own musings.


----------



## Argus

Lukecash12 said:


> How many times do I have to define music for everyone? Like all well developed art, it is specific and emotional reflection of the individual who made it. Saying we should give commendations to poorly made music is like saying we need to find every bumbling idiot, and rather than help him/her actually develop an appropriate thought process that isn't utterly barbaric, we should give him/her a pat on the back and say they make important contributions to people as a whole?
> 
> When I say it's nothing but physical stimulus I say that there is no intuitive connection to the person who wrote it. It's doing nothing more than changing your mood on a basic level, exciting your "fight or flight" set of instincts.
> 
> I listen to a good composer, and I hear sonorous chords and thick harmonies, and from that I derive self contentment, the pleasure of the connection between people. Of course, you listen to Beethoven, and you hear vengeful, exacting angst, dense and full of different figures, fleeting concepts and emotional figures passing one another contrapuntally. You listen to Sumera and you hear meditation, appreciation of one's surroundings, patience, and firm character prevailing above it.
> 
> Now, we listen to poorly made music that has educated itself with no more than the current dogma that barely knows how to use anything more than relative minors, a few modes, occasional chromatics, 4/4, 3/4, 2/4, or cut time signatures. Nothing in the realm of orchestration, rarely any use of 6ths rather than 3rds, etc. It screams predictability, aggressive overuse of repetitive effects (heavy handed chords, overly sweeping dynamics, etc.), and never uses anything for a specific reason. Made simply to feel good or sound "cool". What emotional context are we supposed to get out of it. Do we really want to feel such unbalanced, out of context thought processes and actually try to say they are valid for something, that we get something out of them? It's like drinking until you can't think straight, and calling it a reliable and enjoyable way to see things.


In response to this I am going to say if a monkey with a type writer wrote a novel of the highest calibre by pure chance, is that novel not as great as Dostoevsky, Mann and Goethe's finest works simply because it was wrote by a monkey. I can do bad analogies too.

Listen to that Opeth track i my previous post (the one addressed to StlukesguildOhio) and you will hear many different time signatures, an acoustic interlude with clean singing and even a solo piano ending. Yes it may be repetitive but so are the minimalists works, meaning that is not a detractor to a pieces overall quality. But to be honest metal isn't really about any of those things.

I believe the best metal bands have something that is not really present in much classical music and that is _groove_. Black Sabbath, Kyuss, Pantera, Soundgarden, even Metallica and Megadeth can groove slightly. It doesn't swing as hard as jazz or blues but it serves it's purpose.

Finally, if you have listened to a lot of metal, what are those diamonds you have found? Just name a few examples of what you would consider good metal?


----------



## David58117

I don't know, Opeth is just one of those bands that I can't stand. Sure they're talented musicians and I've heard and owned more than just a few of their cds over the years, but...I feel like a brick wall when it comes to them, as nothing ever sticks with me or grabs me. They just sound forced and uninteresting to my ears. Sorry.

My Recommendations:

Porcupine Tree - Trains:






Anathema - Fragile Dreams:






Anathema - Leave No Trace (Hindsight version)






My Dying Bride - Sear Me III






My Dying Bride - Roads






Angra - Carolina IV






Angra - Holy Land






Helloween - I Want Out






Helloween - We Got The Right






Judas Priest - Green Manalishi






Now from the complete opposite spectrum of metal (black metal)...believe it or not, but the quality is more clear on CD. Even so, your ears may need time to accommodate.

Anyway, the Texture tends to be heavily distorted, with the guitar playing a central melody...vocals just complete the effect - and how ELSE would a vocalist fit in?

Old Man's Child - Return Of The Night Creatures:






Old Man's Child - My Demonic Figures:






Nargaroth - Seven Tears:






Gorgoroth - Funeral Procession:






Gorgoroth - Bergtrollets Hevn:


----------



## Argus

David58117 said:


> I don't know, Opeth is just one of those bands that I can't stand. Sure they're talented musicians and I've heard and owned more than just a few of their cds over the years, but...I feel like a brick wall when it comes to them, as nothing ever sticks with me or grabs me. They just sound forced and uninteresting to my ears. Sorry.


Opeth seem to be polarising amongst metal fans but are probably the most accessible death metal band to non-metal fans. How you feel about Opeth pretty much mirrors my feelings towards Porcupine Tree. Also, I like the Judas Priest version but surely the original Fleetwood Mac Green Manalishi is far better.


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## mark80

*I don't think it's farfetched, I'm looking for classical pieces with the same energy!*

I don't think it's farfetched, *I'm looking for classical pieces that inspired Gothic and metal musicians.*

I like some metal music, grunting is not my thing but the intensity and the energy of metal I like. Most gothic music I love, now I'm getting older I want to widen my horizon.

I can appreciate classical music, but I want the pieces that I can love. Pieces with the intensity of gothic and metal.

*So if anyone can tell me witch classical pieces I need to Google, send me a message.*


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## David58117

Mark - the way I got into classical music over a decade ago was with a sample CD. I recommend that route to begin with. If people have to tell you what to appreciate, where does it end?


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

hell yea, metal is my thing man.

a song from each of my favorite bands:

Mastodon: aqua dementia





Metallica: The Call of Ktulu S&M





Iron Maiden: hallowed be thy name


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## BeethovenListener

I do not like metal music.


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## Danny

Not sure I would call some of these bands metal but my favourites in those genres are Opeth, Porcupine Tree (who I suppose tread between every genre known to man), Dream Theatre and some early Metallica around the Black Album though they have seriously lost the plot.


----------



## Mordacis

love it.
as much as classical music.
both serious, dark metal and simplistic metal. You can like both, but you don't have to.
to me the most diverse genre is black metal.


----------



## Grosse Fugue

Don't love it, don't hate it.


----------



## Josef Anton Bruckner

Great, I broke the tie and pushed the highest vote to "no." Surprised to see so many "metal" lovers on a classical music forum.


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## jhar26

Mordacis said:


> love it.
> as much as classical music.
> both serious, dark metal and simplistic metal. You can like both, but you don't have to.
> to me the most diverse genre is black metal.


I know very little about metal and I'm not that interested either, but isn't black metal all about satanism, church burning, murder, rape, torture and glorifying characters like Hitler? Or is that only a sub-genre or cult within the black metal genre?


----------



## Serge

Sure. Plenty of greats there with Sepultura and Faith No More among my particular favorites.


----------



## jurianbai

This band will change your opinion on metal , a metal for CHILDREN... Hevisaurus!

http://www.geekologie.com/2010/04/awesome_new_music_genre_kids_d.php


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## ghostViolin

first there was light, then there was sound, then there were drums, and then the was guitar!

see, no mention of classical music! ok just kidding 

but yea, metal is my main, and i mean MAIN preference. there are loads of metal guitarists out there that take classical music to some extent and incorporate it into their playing, e.g. jeff loomis, rusty cooley, shu (galneryus), micheal romeo, malmsteen, petrucci (stage performance), stephen forte etc..

ps/ why didn't my topic in "indentifying music" turn up? i tried twice to post it but nothing turned up?


----------



## jurianbai

And how about this... Sir Christopher Lee doing some metal-opera :










how serious this can be ?? see 
http://www.youtube.com/user/CharlemagneMusical

The bands are Rhapsody of Fire + Manowar.


----------



## Kison26

Yes, I like metal music.


----------



## Earthling

No, I do not like metal. To give a context, its not that I don't like rock music (though I listen to a lot less of it than I used to). I enjoy 60s and 70s pop and rock, some 80s music (mostly the earlier, British music), and my interest tapers off to only a few groups from the 90s onward. Ages ago, when I was a teenager, I liked a bit of progressive rock, but never cared for the more metal side of things (which some heavier bands sometimes lean towards). Anyway, I outgrew the prog rock music and no longer care for it at all. And my problem is not the loudness-- I used to crank up the Velvet Underground's "Sister Ray" or Joy Division's more dissonant songs, or Mogwai's loud guitar songs with no problem. 

Metal doesn't appeal to me for several reasons, but I think the main reason is I feel it is very limited in expression-- its easy to distinguish a metal guitar player from other rock guitarists-- not merely because of the amount of distortion. 

This isn't to say that metal musicians aren't talented (and for the more rhythmically complex bands, they music rehearse for several long hours). However, I just feel like the lyrical subject matter and musical material itself is hemmed in-- it seems awfully repetitive to me, from one song to the next from one band to the next-- and the heaver the music gets, the more indistinguishable it becomes to my ear (not to mention the lyrics).

On that end of the spectrum, all the lead singers tend to sound like the cookie monster on steroids. Is that supposed to sound tough or scary or something? It sounds silly to me and I want to laugh. 

On the more progressive spectrum, I feel like the music is less connected to rock n roll roots and making a rather pretentious attempt to sound sophisticated. A metal song may have all the metre changes of Stravinsky's Rite, but it seems to me to be all strictly about virtuosity for virtuosity's sake, which to me is mere novelty and wears off quickly (I'm thinking Dream Theatre for example). 

And even on the more basic straight-ahead metal, I feel it is limited and to me rocks LESS than Patty Smith (I'm thinking her cover of "Gloria") who doesn't rely on as much distortion and yet carries an aggressive overwhelming energy-- sometimes less really is more-- less sophisticated, more raw, less distortion, less I-am-death-on-steroid-and-I've-come-to-stomp-on-your-a--, less frilliness. 

Of course, I'm sure millions of metalheads would totally disagree with me on all these points, but those are just my own thoughts from my own experiences (and with quite a lot of exposure to various kinds of metal in the past).


----------



## jurianbai

It is actually enjoyable show, like this:





or (warning, alcohol content)


----------



## Argus

jurianbai said:


> It is actually enjoyable show, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or (warning, alcohol content)


I'm not sure posting a Dragonforce video is going to convince anybody metal is any good.

The other video (Red Fang) was a lot better.

This is probably the greatest metal album of the last 20 years:






























If you're a fan of the Beatles you might appreciate this:






This song features a choir and somehow manages to not be cheesy:






I'm not even sure this next track is metal but it's pretty great:






If you don't like metal you may still enjoy that last video. It reminds me of a post-rock Richard Strauss meets drone metal Alice Coltrane.

Back to proper metal (with no guitars!):















Some classics:





















If you don't like any of that, then your ears are broken. I recommend a healthy dose of Black Sabbath to be taken aurally thrice daily to recalibrate your tympanic membrane.


----------



## ghostViolin

> If you don't like any of that, then your ears are broken. I recommend a healthy dose of Black Sabbath to be taken aurally thrice daily to recalibrate your tympanic membrane.


...and the today's gold trophy goes to Argus.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Tapkaara said:


> Just curious as to how many of our esteemed forum members enjoy metal music.
> 
> Cast your vote!
> 
> (Let's keep the conversation civil, please!)


No, heavy metal is crap.


----------



## Whistlerguy

My opinion about the metal is following:

First, I like hard rock and softer types of metal more than extreme genres of metal such as black, death, etc. Frankly, I don't like extreme genres at all. They are pretty much close to noise, IMO.
However, I think there are some great hard-rock and heavy metal songs. Also there are good metal ballads. I will mention several songs that I personally like. I know, they are pretty much well-known and mainstream, but, still I think they are good songs.

Deep Purple - Child in Time (guitar solo is exceptional)
Guns'n'Roses - Sweet Child O'Mine (very hypnotic and effective riff)
Guns'n'Roses - Welcome To The Jungle (this song simply has great energy)
Guns'n'Roses - Paradise City (makes me feel great and wakes me up)
Guns'n'Roses - November Rain (beautiful ballad)
Rammstein - Du Hast (like taking caffeine pill - causes instant energy rush)
Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit (great introductory riff - changing dynamics during the song)
Therapy? - Nowhere (makes me want to fight)
Therapy? - Trigger Inside (also makes me wanna fight)
System Of A Down - BYOB (great lyrics - also good noise, variations in dynamic)
AC/DC - Back in Black (very clean hard rock)

BTW, I am not a metalhead, I just appreciate good music from all genres.

I hate arguing with metalheads, because they think that metal is superior to other types of music, and that they are oh-so-special and oh-so subversive, rebellious and anticonformist for listening to metal music.

Actually, they just change one conformism for another. Metal subculture on the inside is extremely conformist. They are all like each other - they allow the subculture to influence their taste, their style of clothing, and they always try to prove that they are "TRUE" metalheads by refusing to admit liking anything "commercial" - also, the more obsucure the band - the better. Only hardcore.
This is their philosophy, and I think it is very childish. They try to cure their insecurities by immersing into a subculture (where they seek acceptance so very much), and adopting the fake attitude of superiority.

What I think about black metal and other extreme genres can be expressed with this poster:










So, in general, I like some songs from metal and hard-rock genres, but I don't like metal subculture and I think that metalheads are quite immature when it comes to their attitude towards music.


----------



## KaerbEmEvig

Whistlerguy said:


> My opinion about the metal is following:
> 
> First, I like hard rock and softer types of metal more than extreme genres of metal such as black, death, etc. Frankly, I don't like extreme genres at all. They are pretty much close to noise, IMO.
> However, I think there are some great hard-rock and heavy metal songs. Also there are good metal ballads. I will mention several songs that I personally like. I know, they are pretty much well-known and mainstream, but, still I think they are good songs.
> 
> Deep Purple - Child in Time (guitar solo is exceptional)
> Guns'n'Roses - Sweet Child O'Mine (very hypnotic and effective riff)
> Guns'n'Roses - Welcome To The Jungle (this song simply has great energy)
> Guns'n'Roses - Paradise City (makes me feel great and wakes me up)
> Guns'n'Roses - November Rain (beautiful ballad)
> Rammstein - Du Hast (like taking caffeine pill - causes instant energy rush)
> Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit (great introductory riff - changing dynamics during the song)
> Therapy? - Nowhere (makes me want to fight)
> Therapy? - Trigger Inside (also makes me wanna fight)
> System Of A Down - BYOB (great lyrics - also good noise, variations in dynamic)
> AC/DC - Back in Black (very clean hard rock)
> 
> BTW, I am not a metalhead, I just appreciate good music from all genres.
> 
> I hate arguing with metalheads, because they think that metal is superior to other types of music, and that they are oh-so-special and oh-so subversive, rebellious and anticonformist for listening to metal music.
> 
> Actually, they just change one conformism for another. Metal subculture on the inside is extremely conformist. They are all like each other - they allow the subculture to influence their taste, their style of clothing, and they always try to prove that they are "TRUE" metalheads by refusing to admit liking anything "commercial" - also, the more obsucure the band - the better. Only hardcore.
> This is their philosophy, and I think it is very childish. They try to cure their insecurities by immersing into a subculture (where they seek acceptance so very much), and adopting the fake attitude of superiority.
> 
> What I think about black metal and other extreme genres can be expressed with this poster:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, in general, I like some songs from metal and hard-rock genres, but I don't like metal subculture and I think that metalheads are quite immature when it comes to their attitude towards music.


I agree. /THE END


----------



## David58117

Whistler - it sounds like you're describing the stereotypical teenager. Teenagers are going through a lot of developmental issues (identity vs. role confusion) and will take on different roles in search of finding a community where they belong. It's natural, and definitely not unique to metal music. I'm sure if you asked a high school "Jocks" clique to take another sport as serious as their own (ie, American Football vs American Soccer), you wouldn't exactly be met with open, eager arms.


----------



## Glaliraha

Here are a few examples of metal done right:

Opeth ~ _*The Night And The Silent Water*_





Opeth ~ *Silhouette*





Opeth ~ *Still Day Beneath The Sun*





Tool ~ *Hush*





Amorphis ~ *Against Widows*





Dark Sanctuary ~ *Les Mémoires Blessées*





System Of A Down - *Holy Mountains*





Black Sabbath - *A National Acrobat*


----------



## ghostViolin

David58117 said:


> Whistler - it sounds like you're describing the stereotypical teenager. Teenagers are going through a lot of developmental issues (identity vs. role confusion) and will take on different roles in search of finding a community where they belong. It's natural, and definitely not unique to metal music. I'm sure if you asked a high school "Jocks" clique to take another sport as serious as their own (ie, American Football vs American Soccer), you wouldn't exactly be met with open, eager arms.


I concur.

My main preference is metal but it's not hard to find myself listening to other forms of music be it classical, pop-rock, folk, orchestral etc.

Heck, I even enjoy this J-pop female band, Suitei Shoujo!

So that doesn't make me a true metalhead then? I don't mind, really.


----------



## 151

No.

Maybe a few pieces from Liquid Tension Experiment.

But I say, if you can't do it, don't knock it. If you can't even play an instrument there is no weight in you arguing that something is 'not music.'

*Lots* of people can cover some classical standard, proficiently.

*Not many* can create original music of their own, classical or not.


----------



## Whistlerguy

> But I say, if you can't do it, don't knock it. If you can't even play an instrument there is no weight in you arguing that something is 'not music.'
> 
> Lots of people can cover some classical standard, proficiently.
> 
> Not many can create original music of their own, classical or not.


I agree very much.


----------



## Argus

Whistlerguy said:


> I agree very much.


I disagree very much.

The ability to play an instrument doesn't give anyone more right to decide what is or isn't music.

Not a lot of people can play a classical piece proficiently, whereas _almost _anyone can create original music.

Actually most of that post didn't tie into anything in this thread apart from the bit about Liquid Tension Experiment.


----------



## Guest

151 said:


> No.
> 
> Maybe a few pieces from Liquid Tension Experiment.
> 
> But I say, if you can't do it, don't knock it. If you can't even play an instrument there is no weight in you arguing that something is 'not music.'
> 
> *Lots* of people can cover some classical standard, proficiently.
> 
> *Not many* can create original music of their own, classical or not.


Your statement is actually rather contradictory when you consider it. You propose some amorphous concept of music that can be anything that a "musician" says it is, above the scrutiny of non-musicians. So then, presumably any person who plays an instrument can create their own music.

And as mentioned, your comments are in reverse. Not many people can cover a classical standard proficiently. It requires a great deal of skill. While numerically there may be a lot, in terms of the entire population, I'm certain the number is incredibly small.

In contrast, the sheer volume of "music" that streams over the airwaves these days suggests that creating new music is not quite as hard.

Certainly someone unfamiliar with how to play a musical instrument can have a valid opinion on the quality of music. Consider food. Must one be a chef to be able to recognize good tasting food? Or horrible slop? My not being able to play an instrument might impact my ability to recognize the degree of skill required to play a particular piece, but not my ability to judge the quality of the work.

I recognize that there are many people who play metal music that have some incredible talent on their instruments. Nevertheless, metal music does not appeal to me in the least - particularly when you enter into some of the more bizarre genres that seem fixated on death/violence/gore/occult topics. The fact that they play the music with amazing technical prowess does not make it any more appealing to me. Nor does their technical skill automatically imbue their work with musical value. Beautiful music does not necessarily require incredible technical skill.


----------



## Whistlerguy

After second thought I agree partially with Argus and DrMike.
It is true that anyone can make new music.
But how truly original this music will be?
And if it is original how good it will be?

I can make perfectly random noise, and this would be fully original, but would lack any merit.

I do think that not very many people can make new music that is both original (innovative in some way) and valuable.

When it comes to playing classical pieces proficiently it is true that very small number of people can achieve it, but at the same time, number of notable composers is even smaller.

And, while I think that classical music is generally better than other genres, there are also lots of good songs and good bands in other genres. And yet, there are some mediocre works in the realm of classical music.

But if we compare the best that classical music can offer with the best music from other genres - classical is obvious winner.


----------



## Whistlerguy

I know there is a lot of metal music that sucks, especially in the extreme genres.
However there is also good metal music.
I think it would be a great idea to use this thread to recommend some youtube clips of metal songs (and I would also include hard rock) that we really think is great.

My favorite so far is: Child in Time (actually it is more hard rock than metal, but it is a great song)


----------



## Earthling

DrMike said:


> Nevertheless, metal music does not appeal to me in the least - particularly when you enter into some of the more bizarre genres that seem fixated on death/violence/gore/occult topics.


I find this to be a really annoying aspect of death metal, etc. Its not even necessarily the content, but you would think a band could come up with a bit of _variety_ in their themes. Its a bit silly, really.



DrMike said:


> The fact that they play the music with amazing technical prowess does not make it any more appealing to me. Nor does their technical skill automatically imbue their work with musical value. Beautiful music does not necessarily require incredible technical skill.


I also find this a very annoying aspect, particularly of many genres of metal-- I've had a few people try to wow me with Dream Theatre or other "progressive" metal bands because they can play in challenging time signatures or really complex passages. Certainly from the standpoint of technique it is impressive, but aesthetically I find it vacuous-- its just virtuosity for virtuosity's sake.


----------



## dmg

Some, but not all.

I prefer the YEAAAAEAAAYYEEEEAAEEEAAAHH vocal style to the GRRORORRHGHKGHGKRROOOROGHHG, though.


----------



## Glaliraha

I forgot a couple of important ones:

Opeth ~ _*Patterns In The Ivy*_





Metallica ~ *Orion*


----------



## Glaliraha

Glaliraha said:


> Here are a few examples of metal done right:
> 
> Opeth ~ _*The Night And The Silent Water*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opeth ~ *Silhouette*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opeth ~ *Still Day Beneath The Sun*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tool ~ *Hush*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amorphis ~ *Against Widows*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Sanctuary ~ *Les Mémoires Blessées*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> System Of A Down - *Holy Mountains*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Sabbath - *A National Acrobat*





Glaliraha said:


> I forgot a couple of important ones:
> 
> Opeth ~ _*Patterns In The Ivy*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Metallica ~ *Orion*


Any feedback on these? I put a lot of thought into these selections.


----------



## David58117

Glaliraha said:


> Any feedback on these? I put a lot of thought into these selections.


I like metal already but I'll respond. None of these would be ones I would recommend as introductions for new listeners. Even I had to turn off some of them due to goofiness or horrendous vocal performances. Sorry...

Regarding Opeth - I've heard lots from them since I've been listening to the genre, owned a few of their cds over the years, but nothing from them ever sticks with me. I find them very pretentious and uninteresting. I really don't get their appeal...and yes I'm a musician, I know music theory and compose, I've heard too many times "you have to be a musician to understand them"...no, you don't.

Anyway, I don't know what will get others into metal, but with experience from my wife and listening to cds in the car, these are the ones she responded to...

Anathema - Flying





Anathema - Fragile Dreams





Katatonia - Criminals





Sentenced - Vengeance Is Mine (she likes singing to this one for some reason)





Apoptygma Berzerk - Mercy Kill (not metal, but another one of her sing a-longs)





Helloween - Dr. Stein





The Scorpions - Dust in the Wind cover





My Dying Bride - Sear Me III (one of the few heavy distorted songs she can listen to)





Motorhead - Ace of Spades (Surprised, but she likes Motorhead!)





Lacrimosa - Halt Mich (maybe because she's german...)





Anyway, those may not be as heavy as some others, but it's what my wife responded to...


----------



## Cnote11

I do like metal, while it's not my favorite, I like basically every genre of music out there. There are so many sub-genres and styles of Metal that are really diverse. Writing off the entirety of a genre based on a certain style you heard isn't a good idea. Also, a lot of metal artists are influenced by classical music. Take the artist Pensées Nocturnes. He performs black metal, but it really isn't the normal black metal you would hear. The vocals are of a different styling compared to any growls or shrieks, in fact there hardly are any, and he makes use of extended classical passages. He's very influenced by Chopin and he isn't the only one who incorporates classical music heavily in their music. A lot of other people may take some aesthetics from classic music and apply it to their music as well. Also, I would like to make note that Jazz is not a form of wankery in anyway. Just because it's a "dead genre", which is highly arguable, doesn't dilute the quality of the music that has been made.


----------



## ghostViolin

David58117 said:


> Regarding Opeth - I've heard lots from them since I've been listening to the genre, owned a few of their cds over the years, but nothing from them ever sticks with me. I find them very pretentious and uninteresting. I really don't get their appeal...and yes I'm a musician, I know music theory and compose, I've heard too many times "you have to be a musician to understand them"...no, you don't.


Regarding Opeth - I've heard 2 or 3 of their albums tho in my opinion they seem to know what they're doing I have to agree with you that most of the times thruout those albums they lack interesting materials. It beats me why many of the metalheads that I've come across tout this band as a genius...Not genius but whimsical perhaps...


----------



## Wumbo

I love art, and I love music. I makes me really sad to see that 50% of people have voted they don't like metal, however skewed those results may be. To dismiss an entire genre, especially one as broad and rich as metal, is frankly childish.

There's really nothing else to say. This is genuinely pathetic.


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

The older I get the less I like Metal.


----------



## Random

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> The older I get the less I like Metal.


Same goes for me.


----------



## ghostViolin

Still lots of years ahead to keep banging my head..


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent

The reason I don't like Metal, or most rock anymore, is because of how stuck in time it is.

The 50's to late 70's were years of Innovation. Some bands as far up as the early 90's were reinventing the genre, and making their own. But during the late 90's, everything just stopped to a halt. Nobody is doing anything fresh. I hear the same thing over and over. Lack of creativity is covered by speed in metal. "If I play fast, people won't notice how unoriginal I am!!" 

I am not saying there are any good bands out there, I am just saying the majority of this stuff going on is repetitive and dull. I am not fighting to destroy it, some people like it. I just have no use for it. 

I will admit that I still like some of it, but not because of how amazing it is. I like the energy in some of it.


----------



## World Violist

I replied with "Don't care," because I respect it as a viable form of artistic expression. Whether I like it or not is beside the point (I do, for the record, rather like Apocalyptica).


----------



## Sonata

I do. Not a fan of the super heavy or dark stuff. No doom, thrash or black metal. But my favorite musical genre is progressive metal.

Oh, and Violist...I am a big Apocalyptica fan. They have a new album coming out this month!


----------



## ghostViolin

Prog metal is one of my fave genres too. And I also find symphonic metal and the good old school thrash too interesting to pass up. As is the case with any other genre, not all bands are equal in terms of originality or musicianship, some are good while others are repetitive of others.

If you haven't already, you might wanna check this one out, Alhambra, a prog metal quintet from Japan. The only issue you might have is that their albums are in Japanese. Otherwise they're just amazing.


----------



## Sonata

No issue with that... if the music is good I don't care what language it's in. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## JMJ

Not really... a loud noisy wall of sound produced by young male adolescents for young male adolescents ...


----------



## ozradio

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> The older I get the less I like Metal.


+1. Once I hit 13 I quickly started losing interest.


----------



## howlingwolfpress

I listened to metal for ten years before I took interest in classical baroque  Here is some metal that I would like to share. Give them a try!

Vehemence - Reconditioning the Flock

Blut Aus Nord - The Plain Of Ida

Der Weg Einer Freiheit - Neubeginn

Novembre - Swim Seagull In The Sky

Drudkh - Wind of the Night Forests

Sigh - Scarlet Dream 

Aeternus - Sentinels of Darkness

Akercocke - The Dark Inside

Ephel Duath - The Unpoetic Circle

The Ruins of Beverast - Soil of the Incestuous

Windir - 1184

Hollenthon - Lords Of Bedlam

Svarrogh - The White Forest of Marble


----------



## KaerbEmEvig

Ark Storm - Final Faith:


----------



## parsa

you know, years ago i used to listen to metal before i join the classical guitar world. then i liked the classical music because its more artistic and you will never get tired of classical music. but metal is better than every popular genre.


----------



## Liam

Wumbo said:


> I love art, and I love music. I makes me really sad to see that 50% of people have voted they don't like metal, however skewed those results may be. To dismiss an entire genre, especially one as broad and rich as metal, is frankly childish


What do you recommend instead?


----------



## howlingwolfpress

Dalriada - Tűzhozó 

Angizia - Blaue Schlotterbodeninsekten Und Der Ingrimm...

Höyry-Kone - Karhunkaato

maudlin of the Well - Catharsis of Sea-Sleep and Dreaming Shrines

Subway to Sally - Das Rätsel

Tyr - The Edge

Asunder - A Clarion Call

Deathspell Omega - First Prayer

Klabautamann - Forlorn Sea


----------



## drbetteridge

I listened to it when I was in high school in the mid 80's. Grew out of it.


----------



## fedrick32

i like metal music...


----------



## Colourless

Since the very first day I heard of it, I've always loved metal music. Sure over the years the subgenre of metal I'd listen to has changed alot, but I still love it nonetheless, especially for the artistic level this genre has shown to be carrying compared to most popular genres. Metal music is actually what helped me getting to know and appreciate classical music. Being somewhat similar in composition, yet much simpler and entertaining (rythmically-speaking), it helped me develop my tastes for what to look for in good music, then I slowly moved to more complex, elaborated, then symphonic metal music (most of which have classical voice singers), and it eventually led me to understand the power and passion contained in classical work.

It saddens me to see a lot of people around me thinking that metal only means modern "mainstream" (often nu-metal or screamo) bands. Back when these bands were all I knew of, I'd not listen to anything else and laugh in the face of classical music... now I can't stand these bands anymore. They're to metal what Simple Plan is to punk....


----------



## KaerbEmEvig

I'm currently listening through Rhapsody's discography. The intro's stunning.

Rhapsody - The Dark Tower of Abyss:


----------



## David58117

KaerbEmEvig said:


> I'm currently listening through Rhapsody's discography. The intro's stunning.
> 
> Rhapsody - The Dark Tower of Abyss:


Use to be very into them about 7/8 years ago, but now...kinda corny. Definitely grew out of them.


----------



## Colourless

David58117 said:


> Use to be very into them about 7/8 years ago, but now...kinda corny. Definitely grew out of them.


Funny that you say that, I personally never liked most of their older works much. I think their more recent music has more musical value to it, not all songs though. They've changed their style alot over the years.

The results of this poll amuse me. It just shows how varied people's opinions about metal music are. There are as many people who like as people who don't like. I wouldn't have expected that!


----------



## KaerbEmEvig

David58117 said:


> Use to be very into them about 7/8 years ago, but now...kinda corny. Definitely grew out of them.


Well, I'm listening through discographies of a lot of bands right now (and have for the past six months). It just so happens that currently I'm on Rhapsody.

Another piece from them:

Rhapsody of Fire - Act V: Neve Rosso Sangue


----------



## kingtim

I love metal! It's funny: it matches so well with symphony.

Slayer is one of my favorite bands.

Thanks guys! It's cool to see everyone else is into the music of the "debbil"!

Cheers


----------



## Noak

I don't love a great deal of Metal compared to other genres, but the stuff that is good is often really good. Examples of albums I love:
Morbid Saint-Spectrum of Death
Repugnant-Epitome of Darkness
Burzum-Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Darkthrone-A BLaze in the Northern Sky
S.V.E.S.T-Urfaust
Demilich-Nespithe
Kataklysm-Sorcery
Mitochondrion-Archaeaeon
Immolation-Unholy Cult
Gorguts-Obscura
Nihilist-(1987-1989)


----------



## vamos

I view metal as inherently evil and disgusting music. I view many of its followers as sort of Nazis.

In a way it's like this: Metal is the bad guy and Jazz is the good guy. I like to think I'm on the side of Jazz, even though some of that metal music is extremely intriguing. Still, by principal, it disgusts me.

Especially the "high thinkers" in the first few threads who came and acted like domineering ********. Yes, maybe they were smart, but the good guys have smart people too - and those smart people don't need to prove themselves to anyone.

Tiny cocks.


----------



## dmg

What if I like metal and jazz? What does that make me?


----------



## vamos

i know that post was terrible. please forgive me. i had read the first 8 pages of the thread and was in a rage.

i like metal too, it's just that some of it is disgusting with the nihilism and sort of evil **** i assume they believe in. i find it more pervasive than something like gangsta rap because it is actually preaching a dangerous philosophy and state of mind instead of a way of life that doesn't apply to me at all.


----------



## David58117

vamos said:


> I view metal as inherently evil and disgusting music. I view many of its followers as sort of Nazis.
> 
> In a way it's like this: Metal is the bad guy and Jazz is the good guy. I like to think I'm on the side of Jazz, even though some of that metal music is extremely intriguing. Still, by principal, it disgusts me.
> 
> Especially the "high thinkers" in the first few threads who came and acted like domineering ********. Yes, maybe they were smart, but the good guys have smart people too - and those smart people don't need to prove themselves to anyone.
> 
> Tiny cocks.





vamos said:


> i know that post was terrible. please forgive me. i had read the first 8 pages of the thread and was in a rage.
> 
> i like metal too, it's just that some of it is disgusting with the nihilism and sort of evil **** i assume they believe in. i find it more pervasive than something like gangsta rap because it is actually preaching a dangerous philosophy and state of mind instead of a way of life that doesn't apply to me at all.


Interesting.......kind of crazy and I hope you're joking, but interesting nonetheless.

Keep in mind that the nasty attitude by "high thinkers" (please find a different word) is not exclusive to metal music. The antimetal people can be arrogant and domineering just as well, even jazz snobs exist.

Eh, life is too short to waste time on people bickering. Off to better things!


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

dmg said:


> What if I like metal and jazz? What does that make me?


Yeah same here. Honestly those two genres along with classical music are my favorite kinds of music.

On a side note however, I am beginning to veer away from metal and any music that uses such a large amount of effects and pedals to produce a particular sound. I feel like a musician should use their own technique and abilities to achieve the sounds that they want, not use a machine. I'm also disgusted with the massive amount of editing that goes along with their studio recordings and such. I find that jazz groups and classical musicians are the ones that care enough about the actual music to go the extra mile, or light-year as the case may be.


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

Glaliraha said:


> Any feedback on these? I put a lot of thought into these selections.


Personally I love Opeth, they're one of my favorite metal bands. My favorite albums would probably be My arms your hearse and Watershed. They're very different albums, but in my opinion they exemplify Opeth at the two best points in their career.

As for the people saying that they dont get why people are crazy about Opeth, its understandable. I heard Opeth several times before I was vaguely interested in them. I think they're one of those bands thats just gotta "click". For some it might not, for others it takes a few listens, while others like it right off the bat.

p.s. Sorry about the double post, but i was reading the thread backwards and encountered two posts i wanted to comment on.


----------



## Argus

somerandomdude said:


> Yeah same here. Honestly those two genres along with classical music are my favorite kinds of music.
> 
> On a side note however, I am beginning to veer away from metal and any music that uses such a large amount of effects and pedals to produce a particular sound. I feel like a musician should use their own technique and abilities to achieve the sounds that they want, not use a machine. I'm also disgusted with the massive amount of editing that goes along with their studio recordings and such. I find that jazz groups and classical musicians are the ones that care enough about the actual music to go the extra mile, or light-year as the case may be.


Remember, effects, editing, computers, machines etc are just tools, like musical instruments, designed to make the art more like the artist wants it to be. If that means using a machine, then so be it. For me, the recording studio as a compositional tool is one of the great inventions of 20thC music.

Maybe it's just me, but the means of making the sounds isn't something I consider when deciding whether I like the music. I only think about that when I hear something I want to reproduce in my own music.


----------



## Jacob Singer

Argus said:


> Maybe it's just me, but the means of making the sounds isn't something I consider when deciding whether I like the music.


No, it's definitely not just you.

The only thing that matters to me when it comes to liking something is what happens when that music travels from my speakers and into my brain. Where the music came from, how/when/why it was created, etc., are all essentially irrelevant to me.


----------



## starthrower

I don't care for all out metal music. I like some bands including the Canadian quartet Karcius that do a good job of blending prog rock, jazz, and touches of metal. But mostly, metal is too stiff sounding and samey for my taste. I like heavy rock that grooves. Probably the heaviest music I listen to is stuff like King Crimson's The Power To Believe.


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

Argus said:


> Remember, effects, editing, computers, machines etc are just tools, like musical instruments, designed to make the art more like the artist wants it to be. If that means using a machine, then so be it. For me, the recording studio as a compositional tool is one of the great inventions of 20thC music.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but the means of making the sounds isn't something I consider when deciding whether I like the music. I only think about that when I hear something I want to reproduce in my own music.


I can understand and respect that, and there were times when i would have readily agreed with you, especially on the effects and computer part. However as my musical tastes mature i feel a certain urge to strive towards purity, more towards our basics and beginnings. Where did it begin? I believe it began with nature, the wind in the trees, thunderstorms, animal sounds, water running, things of that nature. Then people realized that they could replicate and even prefect those sounds and rhythms themselves. I digress slightly, but my point is that it was natural, using natural means of instrumentation to achieve the sounds that they desired. I feel like anything that takes away from that human/natural characteristic (computers, editing out the mistakes, effect pedals) takes away from what music (in my mind) is meant to be. I hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as a random surge of thought.


----------



## Charon

somerandomdude said:


> I can understand and respect that, and there were times when i would have readily agreed with you, especially on the effects and computer part. However as my musical tastes mature i feel a certain urge to strive towards purity, more towards our basics and beginnings. Where did it begin? I believe it began with nature, the wind in the trees, thunderstorms, animal sounds, water running, things of that nature. Then people realized that they could replicate and even prefect those sounds and rhythms themselves. I digress slightly, but my point is that it was natural, using natural means of instrumentation to achieve the sounds that they desired. I feel like anything that takes away from that human/natural characteristic (computers, editing out the mistakes, effect pedals) takes away from what music (in my mind) is meant to be. I hope that makes sense and doesn't come across as a random surge of thought.


Interesting... I was just recently discussing this matter with a friend of mine who is currently recording an album with his band in a professional studio. We were discussing matters such matters of "perfection of performance" and "flawless recording" using editing techniques available today in the studio like cut-and-pasting, vocal pitch adjustments, and filtering procedures.

Part of me agrees with these things contributing to music, and part of me doesn't. It is a human, after all, that is using the computer to do as they please to the recording. At the same time, there seems to be an intangible element that makes it seem less natural or genuine to me and I can't quite explain.

I do think that using electronics to make a particular sound, like a guitar effect pedal, can contribute to music though. It's really the studio "magic" that I'm undecided about.


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

Charon said:


> Part of me agrees with these things contributing to music, and part of me doesn't. It is a human, after all, that is using the computer to do as they please to the recording. At the same time, there seems to be an intangible element that makes it seem less natural or genuine to me and I can't quite explain.


Yeah, i know where you're coming from and I've considered the fact that humans are still the ones who create and operate these tools. The way i see it though, robots and artificial intelligence are created and programmed by humans, however artificial emotions and free will, however convincing still aren't the same as human emotions and free will. To me, if there is going to be a line, then it has to be drawn somewhere and i think that if a person wants a certain effect or a certain note then they should figure out how to achieve it through technique or learn to play in tune.


----------



## jurianbai

well, the classical musician trained themself thousand of hours to be able to perform perfectly on stage. Forcing a violin student to repeat Galamian fingering is some thing like that. that is sort of "magic studio" in making a perfect art.


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

jurianbai said:


> well, the classical musician trained themself thousand of hours to be able to perform perfectly on stage. Forcing a violin student to repeat Galamian fingering is some thing like that. that is sort of "magic studio" in making a perfect art.


Yes, they are similar but I believe that the "thousands of hours" are far superior to the few hours of "studio magic". One is using a machine to falsify a piece of music if you will, whereas the other is the opposite, it is using the human mind and body to create a piece of music while giving room for human error or style. As I said before, I understand where people are coming from, I just personally think it takes away from a piece drastically when it is edited because then I'm my eyes it might as well just be a electronic composition.


----------



## Charon

somerandomdude said:


> Yes, they are similar but I believe that the "thousands of hours" are far superior to the few hours of "studio magic". One is using a machine to falsify a piece of music if you will, whereas the other is the opposite, it is using the human mind and body to create a piece of music while giving room for human error or style. As I said before, I understand where people are coming from, I just personally think it takes away from a piece drastically when it is edited because then I'm my eyes it might as well just be a electronic composition.


I generally agree with what you have there.

This sort of relates to the whole supercomputer solving chess thing and sports.

A few years ago a fellow "solved" the game of checkers using computers, demonstrating that with best play on both sides of the board, the game is a draw.

Many chess players have discussed what would happen if somebody "solved" the beautiful game of chess using a supercomputer in the future. There are some that believe it would be important to know, finally, if the person who moves the white pieces (who moves first) has a definite advantage over the piece that plays the black pieces. (i.e., with best play, does white always win?) Other people, however, do want to know the outcome of such an study. They would prefer to be ignorant to the results, and continue to play chess without knowing the answer. For them, the fact that they knew that white had a distinct advantage over black may "ruin" the beauty and mystery of the game for them. Why would it ruin the game? This all seems so irrational. There is something about keeping the secrets of the game with humans that gives it meaning.

If somebody built a football team of robots with artifical intelligence that were far superior to any other football team that humans could put together among themselves, would this change how you appreciate the sport? Would you be more interested in seeing the robots play their perfect game, or just two human teams play each other?

How about the prospect of "perfect" officiating in sports, where every call made by the official is reviewable by another party, and everything gets called perfectly consistently? Why haven't all sport leagues implemented this? They want to keep the "human" factor.

This is also related to why there are no car race competitions in the olympics. They want it to stay "all human". Even though there are cars that can go a bazillion miles per hour, we take appreciation in watching guys sprint their guts out over 100m of track. If they lose, we don't tell them to go get mechanical leg replacements and they'll win next time. We say, go and train harder next time and you might win! In some cases, a particular person may be born with a gift (Usain Bolt?), and this type of thing is wonderful to witness as a human myself.

In my opinion, "studio magic" used to such a crazy extent begins to remove the human-ness from the music. I don't expect everybody to have the same opinion as me, though.


----------



## David58117

Timbre & tone color. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Argus

Charon said:


> How about the prospect of "perfect" officiating in sports, where every call made by the official is reviewable by another party, and everything gets called perfectly consistently? Why haven't all sport leagues implemented this? They want to keep the "human" factor.


Or Sepp Blatter is a traditionalist swine.

Back to music.

I give you a CD with 2 tracks on it. One is composed and performed by humans on traditional instruments. The other track is composed and performed entirely by a computer.

What happens if both of these tracks sound the same? Will the knowledge of the creation of the art affect your judgement of it?

Is this not a case of listening with your brain and not your ears. Extra-musical factors impinging upon your ability to enjoy music for what it is, a collection of sounds.

What about wind chimes and Aoelian harps? Nancarrow's Player Piano Studies? Generative, indeterminate and aleatoric music?

What about this?







> In my opinion, "studio magic" used to such a crazy extent begins to remove the human-ness from the music. I don't expect everybody to have the same opinion as me, though.


What is studio magic? Imagine you want a piece of music to shift from a section played an orchestra to a field recording of howler monkeys or to industrial machinery. Do you have everything in the same room at the same time, or is it better to edit and mix the different recordings together?

I think that any method, within ethical boundaries, can be implemented to give the artist the desired sound. If the artist has no desired sound in mind, then utilising various possibilities of creating any sound can be implemented.


----------



## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

Charon said:


> I generally agree with what you have there.
> 
> This sort of relates to the whole supercomputer solving chess thing and sports.
> 
> A few years ago a fellow "solved" the game of checkers using computers, demonstrating that with best play on both sides of the board, the game is a draw.
> 
> Many chess players have discussed what would happen if somebody "solved" the beautiful game of chess using a supercomputer in the future. There are some that believe it would be important to know, finally, if the person who moves the white pieces (who moves first) has a definite advantage over the piece that plays the black pieces. (i.e., with best play, does white always win?) Other people, however, do want to know the outcome of such an study. They would prefer to be ignorant to the results, and continue to play chess without knowing the answer. For them, the fact that they knew that white had a distinct advantage over black may "ruin" the beauty and mystery of the game for them. Why would it ruin the game? This all seems so irrational. There is something about keeping the secrets of the game with humans that gives it meaning.
> 
> If somebody built a football team of robots with artifical intelligence that were far superior to any other football team that humans could put together among themselves, would this change how you appreciate the sport? Would you be more interested in seeing the robots play their perfect game, or just two human teams play each other?
> 
> How about the prospect of "perfect" officiating in sports, where every call made by the official is reviewable by another party, and everything gets called perfectly consistently? Why haven't all sport leagues implemented this? They want to keep the "human" factor.
> 
> This is also related to why there are no car race competitions in the olympics. They want it to stay "all human". Even though there are cars that can go a bazillion miles per hour, we take appreciation in watching guys sprint their guts out over 100m of track. If they lose, we don't tell them to go get mechanical leg replacements and they'll win next time. We say, go and train harder next time and you might win! In some cases, a particular person may be born with a gift (Usain Bolt?), and this type of thing is wonderful to witness as a human myself.
> 
> In my opinion, "studio magic" used to such a crazy extent begins to remove the human-ness from the music. I don't expect everybody to have the same opinion as me, though.


Yeah, this is exactly how I feel as well. I'm one of those people who wouldn't want to know "the perfect chess game".


----------



## the_emptier

I have been listening to metal since the age of 9 or 10, i'm 17 now. although I have been interested in jazz and classical music lately i still am up on whats new. metal has always surprised in the fact that there are so many different movements and bands. it's astounding, lately i really enjoy technical death metal and the black metal scene in france. my favorite bands right now are probably necrophagist, obscura, and opeth.


----------



## Xaltotun

I've listened to metal for 20 years (and classical for about 6 months) so yeah, I know something about that metal stuff, and still like it.


----------



## tdc

I can appreciate the musicality and creativity of it, but I dont particularily enjoy listening to it. A lot of the guitar students I have try to bring in new metal pieces for me to try and figure out for them. Rather than downtune all my strings I usually just teach them something from Rust in Peace or Master of Puppets, and that usually keeps them busy for a long time. If they actually master those songs and then want to learn more new metal songs I usually suggest a different teacher.


----------



## the_emptier

scandinavia is truly one of the best places for metal.


----------



## Barking Spiderz

Cant stand it. Then again I dont like most rock music. To my ears it's all very one-dimensional, lacking in variety, the songs are formulaic and the bands all sound like eachother. And, minor point, there are no decent tunes.


----------



## Nyarlathotep

Ive liked metal for a long time, though not as long as classical.


----------



## Xaltotun

An interesting thing that I noticed when I started to listen to classical music: I had to learn how to listen in a completely different way. Classical music was just incomprehensible if I tried to listen to it in the same way I listen to metal. And now when I go back to metal, it sounds too simple if I try to listen to it the same way as I listen to classical music. I have to switch the listening mode.

With metal, it's all about here and now, what is the feeling in the music in this very second. So it's much more about the sound, the attitude, the general feeling. It's not about what they're playing, it's all about how they're playing. Some bands just have the energy, the passion - many more don't.

With classical music, it's a longer time-frame. I have to remember what was playing a minute ago, five minutes ago, ten minutes ago. And while it's still important how they are playing, it's what they're playing that's the most important thing. How the music moves, how it changes.

What metal has taught to me, however, is sensitivity to the here and now. When listening to a piece of classical music, I'm quite sensitive to the sound, the conducting, and the general feeling and energy of the playing. That's why some recordings of a same symphony, for example, leave me completely cold, and some light me up... even though I'm just a newbie.

That's the difference for me. I might also mention that I like my metal as simple and rough as possible, can't stand any kind of proggressive/complex metal at all, and I definitely don't want to hear any metal/classical crossover.


----------



## Barking Spiderz

Xaltotun said:


> That's the difference for me. I might also mention that I like my metal as simple and rough as possible, can't stand any kind of proggressive/complex metal at all, and I definitely don't want to hear any metal/classical crossover.


Agreed..to an extent. As I said I'm no fan of metal but can appreciate that bands like Motorhead, Motley Crue and AC/DC can be good, dirty fun without any pretensions. Shame I cant say the say for prog-metal, symphonic metal etc. Big on showboating, low on humour and fun.


----------



## the_emptier

there are a lot of technical/progressive/complex bands that are fantastic. in my opinon at least


----------



## Xaltotun

Sure, there's plenty of room for different tastes, no problem


----------



## Rob

My old technical death metal-band (I'm a guitarist):


----------



## the_emptier

Hm, I liked it but wasn't a fan of the production. sounded too exposed the space wasn't filled for some reason. cool stuff though, i'm a big tech death fan. kind of psycroptic esque vocals. great playing though, i'm a guitarist as well.


----------



## vasysm

Great instrumental structure, edgy lyrics, splendid playing. Classical metal


----------



## Guest

This is my old band, Psypheria. We broke up in 2003 when I lost interest in playing metal.





Then a year later, the urge to play returned, so I formed an instrumental band, Excarnum, which disbanded a year later when I gave up metal for good!


----------



## Taneyev

I like metal, but only on platinum or gold.


----------



## kv466

Heck yeah!!! I grew up on metal. It was my first guitar teacher and I'll never turn my back on it! ...And Justice For All is one of the best metal albums ever laid down.


----------



## Kayla

It's hard for me to like it, because I just can't understand what it wants to express except that it makes me feel uncomfortable. I know that metal music wants to express something contradictory of the world. They yell, cry, murmur ...they give out their feelings, which are hard for me to understand. I think this is gap between time and our life experience and world outlook...whatsoever, I am a metal music member.
Forgive me, that's what I know about metal music.


----------



## neoshredder

Definitely. Especially neoclassical metal. Metal combined with classical music ideas. Mainly from the Baroque era of classical music. Yngwie Malmsteen, Tony MacAlpine, Vinnie Moore, Uli Jon Roth, and Jason Becker are among the leaders of this style.


----------



## violadude

Conservationist said:


> Some definitely do.
> 
> It reminds me of how jazz fans are usually pompous and confrontational on the internet, but when you see their lives, there are these meek little people who bend over for The System or The Man any chance they get, failed at education, are bitter and aging into obscurity, etc.
> 
> Metalheads at least have some fight in them! I'd like to get more of them to listen to classical though.


I know this comment is years old, but it really surprised me! All of the Jazz artists/fans that I have met in person are really chill and friendly.


----------



## regressivetransphobe

Conservationist writes for a long-running metal website that in recent years has started to push totalitarianism/eugenics. They call themselves nihilists, but it's a front for some sort of pan-nationalistic fascism.
www.anus.com
I know the address looks sketchy, but it's just a blog.
Here's a taste of the writing, on the subject of "race-mixing".
http://www.anus.com/zine/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=441
A rather nasty attack on Tchaikovsky, avant-garde music, and other things:
http://www.anus.com/zine/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=467

Suffice to say the dude has a few complexes that extend into his thoughts on people who like music he doesn't.

Not trying to be too "internet detective" here, but he's quite public about his online identity.


----------



## Deesnuts

Lol, no THIS is noise:


----------



## Deesnuts

Mirror Image said:


> Metal played on acoustic guitars? I bet most of these metalheads don't even know what an acoustic instrument is.  If they did, they surely couldn't play it.







Mhmm..


----------



## jani




----------



## Sonata

Yes I do; specific subgenres anyway. My preferred are progressive metal and symphonic metal. I listen to these quite a lot. I enjoy some power metal and a bit of straight up old fashioned heavy metal. I do not like the more extreme genres: death, black, etc.


----------



## MelloHero

It appears, when I survey the metal I like, that I'm a huge fantasy dork who also likes to pretend it's 1987. Symphonic metal like Rhapsody of Fire is one of my favorites (that band particularly because of their use of orchestral instruments is more informed than most), and so is power metal, mostly because of the power of the sound itself, rather than artistic merit. Case in point, I like Dragonforce, even though I fully admit that every one of their songs sounds the same and that their lyrics are meaningless fluff. It's a guilty pleasure, for sure, but I love it just the same. Hair metal is also something I'm a fan of, like Poison and Def Leppard (whom I was fortunate enough to see in concert earlier this month), Motley Crue, Judas Priest, and all those. Apparently I like music as long as it's fun, or technically demanding.


----------



## BurningDesire

Why can't I find an option for "HELL YEAH!"? XD


----------



## lukecubed

I really enjoy alot of black, folk, and death metal. Esp. black metal. But I enjoy all the metals. Even power metal (but only a little).

The new Wodensthrone is my metal album of the year so far.


----------



## Arsakes

No, I hate it both rational and emotionally.

It represents madness and chaos ... plus it's singers' cries and high octaves of Electric instruments are annoying as hell.


----------



## DeepR

What I can't stand about the more extreme forms of metal is that everything sounds equally loud all the time. A continuous blur of loudness without any room to breathe, music stripped of all dynamics. Therefore it doesn't have any effect on me. If I want to get pumped up, I need music that builds in intensity.


----------



## neoshredder

I like Thrash Metal. Early Metallica being my favorite. I also like Symphonic Metal with Savatage being my favorite. Too technical metal isn't really my thing. Looking at Dream Theater being the most popular but other than Images and Words, am not too fond of them. I am disappointed in those that hate Metal. So many different subgenres. Maybe you think of Metal as only death metal with overly distorted guitars and the drums constantly pounding.


----------



## Iforgotmypassword

neoshredder said:


> I like Thrash Metal. Early Metallica being my favorite. I also like Symphonic Metal with Savatage being my favorite. Too technical metal isn't really my thing. Looking at Dream Theater being the most popular but other than Images and Words, am not too fond of them. I am disappointed in those that hate Metal. So many different subgenres. Maybe you think of Metal as only death metal with overly distorted guitars and the drums constantly pounding.


They probably only know of Iron Maiden, Metallica and random deathcore that they've heard blasting from bars downtown.


----------



## brianwalker

Whatever this is, I like it.


----------



## Morgante

No.
No.
No.
No.


----------



## dionisio

Immortal Yeah!!
Dream Theater Yeah!!

I dont listen to metal anymore (except when i'm jogging) but these two are exception!


----------



## Iforgotmypassword

dionisio said:


> Immortal Yeah!!
> Dream Theater Yeah!!
> 
> I dont listen to metal anymore (except when i'm jogging) but these two are exception!


Dude, I love some good metal when I'm jogging.

...in fact I may just go search out some headphones and go for a short jog right now.


----------



## Philip

Black metal + dark ambient


----------



## EricABQ

This chick is pretty cool:


----------



## norman bates

EricABQ said:


> This chick is pretty cool:


frankly i think it's horrible, and i love the original song.


----------



## jani

Yeah, Metallicas Master of puppets is one of the best Metal songs ever written IMO.


----------



## dionisio

jani said:


> Yeah, Metallicas Master of puppets is one of the best Metal songs ever written IMO.


Naahh...

Master of puppets is one of the best Metal albums ever written


----------



## neoshredder

Ride the Lightning deserves some love to. Though Master of Puppets had probably the 2 best songs, Ride the Lightning had the best overall album.


----------



## EricABQ

This is the same woman who played the Master piano cover. I think this lends itself to a piano interpretation much better than Master of Puppets (and I enjoyed her Master rendition.)


----------



## jdk

I like Scandinavian metal mostly. Bands such as Einherjer, Summoning, Moonsorrow. Even though it's in foreign language, it's the music that takes you on the journey.


----------



## dionisio

jdk said:


> I like Scandinavian metal mostly. Bands such as Einherjer, Summoning, Moonsorrow. Even though it's in foreign language, it's the music that takes you on the journey.


Did you know Windir? I used to hear them pretty often.


----------



## nikola

I must voted for 'NO'. 
Of course, if you consider 'metal' to be something like Deep Purple's 'Child in Time', that is not metal to me then. That's hard rock and actualy I like that kind of music. 'Child in Time' even though some parts of it are plagiarism is masterpiece to me. 
But that typical metal that started in 80's is simply not for me. It all sounds same to me completely drowned in some grotesque and testosternic sound with very little musical substance to enjoy. 
I've heard that many say that metal is modern classical music. I simply can't agree with that because it's most of the time completely childish music to me that tries to be bigger than God and universe and it simply - isn't. There are many other factors too. 
Sure, I can appreciate some bands like The Dream Theater who actualy do make some interesting music, but something like this I can't stand. It's not most of the time that I can't stand it, but it leaves me completely disinterested.


----------



## neoshredder

nikola said:


> I must voted for 'NO'.
> Of course, if you consider 'metal' to be something like Deep Purple's 'Child in Time', that is not metal to me then. That's hard rock and actualy I like that kind of music. 'Child in Time' even though some parts of it are plagiarism is masterpiece to me.
> But that typical metal that started in 80's is simply not for me. It all sounds same to me completely drowned in some grotesque and testosternic sound with very little musical substance to enjoy.
> I've heard that many say that metal is modern classical music. I simply can't agree with that because it's most of the time completely childish music to me that tries to be bigger than God and universe and it simply - isn't. There are many other factors too.
> Sure, I can appreciate some bands like The Dream Theater who actualy do make some interesting music, but something like this I can't stand. It's not most of the time that I can't stand it, but it leaves me completely disinterested.


Great posts until this one.  But at least you like Hard Rock.


----------



## nikola

neoshredder said:


> Great posts until this one.  But at least you like Hard Rock.


Sorry 
I do like a lot of music, but a lot of music I don't like too. Metal is actualy very young musical style. It's first priority is image and 'coolness' and then music. Many people who listen to it wear similar clothes, have similar hair... they're teens mostly. Same with hip-hop, etc.
I simply never liked herd type of music. Not simply because their listeners identifies themselves with their herd thorugh music, but because I can't find enough quality, soul or whatsoever in such music. 
Metal is more intended for primal instincts, while classical music, for example, tends to go a billion light years ahead of such approach. It's like it searches everything considering human, life, God, etc, but on some deeper psychological level. Even primal instincts can be great, but in metal they seem too much phony to me.

Also, when you have out there thousands and thousands metal bands it actualy lose it's quality in that progression of quantity. I'm sure there are out there probably 2% of decent metal musicians and I know that majority of them are great guitar players, but it's all just some empty playing technique to me... mostly...

Back then in 1967 Leonard Bernstein told that all rock'n'roll and popular music back then is NOT trash. But he did say that 95% of that music actualy IS trash, while 5% is great and even inventive and unique (he liked to mention The Beatles many times to confirm what is 'good' music). You can find that video on youtube.
Back then many of those early rock'n'roll songs were mostly very simple and generic in their structure. Probably more simple than today's most metal music, but if Bernstein did say that 95% of rock'n'roll music is trash, what would he say about metal music? Ok, we can't know what would he say.

Not all music is good simply because it's out there. Sure, we all have different taste but unfortunately, I'm pretty much against metal for the sake of metal. 
Also, I can find similarity with classical music only on rough technical level and nowhere else. But metal music is riff based music and classical music is not. It's not that riff is 'bad', but that's another story I guess.

I'm sorry if majority don't agree with me, but that's just my opinion.


----------



## clavichorder

I enjoy this song from time to time


----------



## nikola

This is actualy good 
But it seems to me more like rock than metal. I guess it's hard for me to find that border between metal and hard-rock.


----------



## Philip

Metal is about attitude. This is metal:

Zakk Wylde - Acoustic Stillborn


----------



## clavichorder

There's this user on youtube who covers metal and rock songs on the piano, and does quite a good job of it:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/user/vkgoeswild?feature=CAQQwRs%3D[/video]

She's also popular with the young guys of youtube.


----------



## neoshredder

Some great metal songs.


----------



## dionisio

For rock there should be another topic. This is for metal, nicola.

We should open three more topics:

- Rock: the Beatles, Elvis, Kinks, The who, Pink Floyd, queen, Rolling stones, etc.

- Hard Rock: (The almighty) Led Zepplin, deep purple, black sabbath, Guns n Roses, etc

- Johnny Cash PERIOD!


----------



## dionisio

BTW, and what about My Dying Bride? Anyone?

Turn loose the swans is the best for me.

In second The dreadful hours, 34.788%...Complete and The light at the end of the world.


----------



## jdk

dionisio said:


> Did you know Windir? I used to hear them pretty often.


Sure do. Great musician Valfar.

This has probably already been posted but as I do enjoy Children of Bodom's earlier work, I'm amazed how clean his tone is in this. Some classical Vivaldi on guitar:


----------



## aaartnaz

yes, metalhead here. i didn't listen to it (nor did i listen to a lot of music) until my mid twenties since i wasn't exposed to it until that late in my life.


----------



## Iforgotmypassword

nikola said:


> Sorry
> I do like a lot of music, but a lot of music I don't like too. Metal is actualy very young musical style. It's first priority is image and 'coolness' and then music. Many people who listen to it wear similar clothes, have similar hair... they're teens mostly. Same with hip-hop, etc.
> I simply never liked herd type of music. Not simply because their listeners identifies themselves with their herd thorugh music, but because I can't find enough quality, soul or whatsoever in such music.
> Metal is more intended for primal instincts, while classical music, for example, tends to go a billion light years ahead of such approach. It's like it searches everything considering human, life, God, etc, but on some deeper psychological level. Even primal instincts can be great, but in metal they seem too much phony to me.
> 
> Also, when you have out there thousands and thousands metal bands it actualy lose it's quality in that progression of quantity. I'm sure there are out there probably 2% of decent metal musicians and I know that majority of them are great guitar players, but it's all just some empty playing technique to me... mostly...
> 
> Back then in 1967 Leonard Bernstein told that all rock'n'roll and popular music back then is NOT trash. But he did say that 95% of that music actualy IS trash, while 5% is great and even inventive and unique (he liked to mention The Beatles many times to confirm what is 'good' music). You can find that video on youtube.
> Back then many of those early rock'n'roll songs were mostly very simple and generic in their structure. Probably more simple than today's most metal music, but if Bernstein did say that 95% of rock'n'roll music is trash, what would he say about metal music? Ok, we can't know what would he say.
> 
> Not all music is good simply because it's out there. Sure, we all have different taste but unfortunately, I'm pretty much against metal for the sake of metal.
> Also, I can find similarity with classical music only on rough technical level and nowhere else. But metal music is riff based music and classical music is not. It's not that riff is 'bad', but that's another story I guess.
> 
> I'm sorry if majority don't agree with me, but that's just my opinion.


I can see that you don't know much about metal music and how it has progressed over the years. Jazz also started out as a popular genre, but now is essentially on par with the contemporary classical that is being composed. If you were to delve a little bit you'd find that the good stuff has nothing to do with "image" and everything to do with the music itself.

It seems that you are still thinking back to the 80's when "glam rock" and "hair metal" reigned supreme. This is no longer 1985. Sure there are popular metal bands and crappy, plasticy, shallow things marketed underneath that title, but there is a lot of more interesting stuff going on under the surface. You just have to know where to look and of course do so with an open mind.


----------



## jani

You can't hate hair metal after you have heard Steel panther!!!


----------



## Faville

I have liked metal music since my latter high school years, and grew up in a Classical household (father was a pianist and church organist, mother a flute and recorder teacher and Early Music specialist) where, now that I reflect, an actual fear of rock and metal, though they allowed me whatever I wanted to listen to, and even patiently listened when I wanted to share something.
Now, in middle age, I still listen to metal and even pick up a CD or two now and then, and have greatly expanded my tastes for many of the sub-genres.

I am happy to have expanded my musical tastes and experiences over the years. I listen to Metal (and Jazz and Electronica and Ambient drone and whatever else) because it brings sound and emotion in a unique way that Classical will never be able to do.


----------



## neoshredder

Any Yngwie fans or any of the 80's shredders here?


----------



## regressivetransphobe

The problem I have with shredding is that it's kinda the musical equivalent of this:
http://www.evilbeetgossip.com/2009/08/06/tacky-michael-jackson-painting-valued-at-21-million/
Like, okay... I probably wouldn't be able to make that, but is it good...?


----------



## Crudblud

I think shredding is perfectly valid as a technique inside a well developed style, as are sweep picking, two hand tapping and so on, but when used as the sole basis of composition these techniques become dull fast. Sure I can wow my friends by playing at high speed but I do not find it musically fulfilling, and in fact my guitar playing these days is purposefully much slower, although I can still shred if I need to.


----------



## neoshredder

How about the best of both worlds? Tony MacAlpine has some of the most melodic playing I've heard and mixes it in with shredding. Check this out.


----------



## jani

neoshredder said:


> Any Yngwie fans or any of the 80's shredders here?


Me! 45678910


----------



## jani

His first solo album is phenomenal! 
It was a new milestone on guitar based music!
Far beyond the sun!
Black star
Icarus dream suite
Evil eye
All of those tracks are great!


----------



## neoshredder

jani said:


> His first solo album is phenomenal!
> It was a new milestone on guitar based music!
> Far beyond the sun!
> Black star
> Icarus dream suite
> Evil eye
> All of those tracks are great!


Marching Out and Trilogy are great to. Also check out No Parole from Rock and Roll from Alcatrazz.


----------



## jani

neoshredder said:


> Marching Out and Trilogy are great to. Also check out No Parole from Rock and Roll from Alcatrazz.


yea, Too young to die too drunk to live is my favorite track from his Alcatrazz album. 
I think that his Steeler album was just something what were he was still learning his trade etc...


----------



## lukecubed

dionisio said:


> Immortal Yeah!!
> Dream Theater Yeah!!


Generally can't get into DT much--there are exceptions--but Immortal is so stupidly awesome that it hurts. "Where Dark and Light Don't Differ"=riff clinic


----------



## regressivetransphobe

^ Good album. It feels like it SHOULDN'T be good it's so clean sounding and catchy, but at that point they managed to modernize without sacrificing atmosphere.


----------



## Iforgotmypassword

jani said:


> You can't hate hair metal after you have heard Steel panther!!!


I vomited just a little.


regressivetransphobe said:


> The problem I have with shredding is that it's kinda the musical equivalent of this:
> http://www.evilbeetgossip.com/2009/08/06/tacky-michael-jackson-painting-valued-at-21-million/
> Like, okay... I probably wouldn't be able to make that, but is it good...?


I cried.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

lukecubed said:


> Generally can't get into DT much--there are exceptions--but Immortal is so stupidly awesome that it hurts. "Where Dark and Light Don't Differ"=riff clinic


--- 
Work out music if ever there was:






_"Blow the horn for the tide to come! Triumph! Our battle will be won!"_

A_bsolutely_, Immortal.


----------



## Blake

lukecubed said:


> Generally can't get into DT much--there are exceptions--but Immortal is so stupidly awesome that it hurts. "Where Dark and Light Don't Differ"=riff clinic


Speaking of Black Metal. I really dug Imperium Dekadenz's latest album - _Meadows of Nostalgia._


----------



## drvLock

I have always been a metalhead before starting my interests on other genres. I started listening to metallica 9and only listened to metallica for a while) until I met Children of Bodom. then, I started listening to more underground bands, and now I can say I listen to any kind of heavy metal, but my favorite sub genres are Black and Death metal. 

Immortal, alongside Dimmu Borgir, Mayhem and Burzum are my favorite artists!


----------



## Tristan

Well, I love this:






Whether or not it's actual metal is debatable. This particular song is strongly influenced by J-pop, but not all of their songs are.


----------



## Blake

Tristan said:


> Well, I love this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whether or not it's actual metal is debatable. This particular song is strongly influenced by J-pop, but not all of their songs are.







P.S. - Not trying to be judgmental here. You like what you like. But that was so bubble-gum pop that I had to go outside and roll around in the mud for a bit.


----------



## mtmailey

I do not like it because it is to me a bad influence on people.Like certain songs are about hate,drug use,suicide,killing,death & so on.Not only that i do not find it relaxing.


----------



## Varick

Vesuvius said:


>


LMAO!!! If I wasn't thinking the exact same thing while watching that video, it was close! Well played Vesuvius!

Back to the topic on hand. I do not like metal. I listened to the old school stuff like Sabbath, Ozzy, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest when I was in 6th & 7th grade, but then I grew out of it. Death Metal is utter crap. Is it difficult drum to those beats as long as they do? Yes. Is it difficult to scream inaudible grunts and words without getting horse and ruining your vocal chords? Yes, there is a technique to it.

Is it difficult to stack 50 pots and pans of various sizes all on top of each other without it falling down? You betcha! Is it good art? I submit no.

I agree with Nikola above when she talks about the immaturity that is present in a lot of metal. Some of the lyrics are childish, sophomoric, and... well... immature. There's no depth to much of it. There's a reason why I stopped listening to it at the age I did. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for some 'check-your-brain-at-the-door type movies (I love the super hero movies like Avengers, X-men, Iron Man, and such) and I constantly crack up hysterically at the blatant sophomoric humor of Family Guy [I also love South Park. But that actually has some incredible depth to it - sometimes]. So, I fully appreciate the fact that everything doesn't have to be "elevating," "proper," or "high-end." What a boring life that is. Sometimes I don't want to eat at Del Frisco's Steak House. Sometimes I just want a Wendy's Double Cheese Burger with a chocolate Frosty (God are those good!).

I think a lot what's at work here is so many people have a difficult time separating what they like from what is "good" or "great." An example I use all the time is Steely Dan & Tom Petty: Steely Dan is an amazingly talented band. There is such good and solid musicianship and musicality going on throughout there entire discography. I can't say anything bad about them. However, I just don't enjoy their music. Tom Petty on the other hand has rarely written anything more complex than a four chord structure. There is nothing transcendent about his music. It's very simple stuff. But I LOVE it. He just writes some catchy tunes!

There are talented musicians in metal. There are some metal bands that do some skillful stuff. And if you like it, I say, rock on. There's an *** for every seat. But objectively as a genre, I'm sorry, but I fail to see how someone can call it "great" music. Same thing goes for rap/hip hop. I like a lot of it. I'm a HUGE fan of Eminem (That is one talented guy). But is it "great" music? Not by a long shot.

V


----------



## Morimur

mtmailey said:


> I do not like it because it is to me a bad influence on people.Like certain songs are about hate,drug use,suicide,killing,death & so on.Not only that i do not find it relaxing.


There's plenty of classical music with violent / objectionable content (ex. Blue Beard's Castle, Grand Macabre, Written on Skin, etc.), so metal isn't alone in this regard. Personally, I dislike it for its creative ineptitude. What's so extreme and cutting edge about writing mind numbing, repetitive riffs in 4/4 time? Admittedly, some bands are capable of complexity; they can play the hell out of their instruments but can't compose or create anything worth a damn. For example, Dream Theater -- my goodness, these guys should be guitar technicians, but can they do anything with that virtuosity? They make me want to vomit.


----------



## Blake

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Well there's plenty of classical music with violent / objectionable content (ex. Blue Beard's Castle, Grand Macabre, Written on Skin etc.), so metal isn't alone in this regard. Personally, I dislike it for its creative bankruptcy. What's so extreme and cutting edge about writing mind numbing, repetitive riffs in 4/4 time?


Extreme? Certainly is. Cutting Edge? Certainly is not. Particularly some of the BM clips that have been posted like Immortal and Imperium Dekadenz. It's heavy-duty stuff, for sure. It's not made to be intellectual, it's an intense emotional catharsis.


----------



## Tristan

Vesuvius said:


> P.S. - Not trying to be judgmental here. You like what you like. But that was so bubble-gum pop that I had to go outside and roll around in the mud for a bit.


If it's cute and it's Japanese--chances are I'm gonna like it


----------



## Blake

Tristan said:


> If it's cute and it's Japanese--chances are I'm gonna like it


Maybe you were a cute little Japanese girl in your past life, and the reverberations are still playing out.


----------



## Morimur

Tristan said:


> If it's cute and it's Japanese--chances are I'm gonna like it


This should be right up your alley... it's downright satanic.


----------



## Tristan

^

You know me too well 

Kyary Pamyu Pamyu is one of my favorite artists and I have that song in my collection, among others. And of course I love her surreal music videos.


----------



## Blake

Tristan said:


> ^
> 
> You know me too well
> 
> Kyary Pamyu Pamyu is one of my favorite artists and I have that song in my collection, among others. And of course I love her surreal music videos.


Haha, I can't imagine your rugby buddies know you jam this, aye?


----------



## mtmailey

I mostly listen to non-vocal music therefore i do not heard violence that much though.I like songs like by SCHUBERT that is not in english.


----------



## Simon Moon

I'm not sure if I like metal of not?

I listen to quite a bit of complex, emotional, extremely well played music that the vast majority of people consider forms of metal. But when I opened a thread about this a while ago, I was told by some self appointed experts that I really wasn't listening to metal. I guess what I listen to doesn't fit their notion of metal.


So, I'm in a bit of a quandary it I like metal or not.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Vesuvius said:


> Maybe you were a cute little Japanese girl in your past life, and the reverberations are still playing out.


Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. . . Egoists-- not that I'm one, mind you; Ha. Ha. Ha.-- don't talk about _other _people, which is all to the good-- but then they always seem to be talking about little Japanese girls.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Well, I like the full-tilt charge of _this_. Ha. Ha. Ha.

-- But then, Europeans have _metal_.

I don't know what it is they pretend to have here in the States.


----------



## Simon Moon

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, I like the full-tilt charge of _this_. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> -- But then, Europeans have _metal_.
> 
> I don't know what it is they pretend to have here in the States.


Since Florida is considered the birthplace of technical death-metal, I don't believe the States are 'pretenders'.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

I use it on auto-timer when on holiday to frighten burglars away. After all, Tchaikovsky is far too simpering


----------



## Guest

Simon Moon said:


> Since Florida is considered the birthplace of technical death-metal, I don't believe the States are 'pretenders'.


Practically a birthplace for death metal in general.

In fairness, one could simply say that black metal is, for the most part, a bit of a joke in the Western hemisphere. Death metal has been great from California to Finland, but I would probably give the edge to the States (Morbid Angel, Deicide, Possessed, Atheist, Incantation, Autopsy, etc... though early At The Gates, Therion, Demilich, Massacra, Unleashed, Demigod, etc is plenty delicious as well.

Black metal though...well, Norway doesn't even need help from the rest of Europe to embarrass the U.S. scene.


----------



## Guest

I voted "Yes, I like metal music". John Cage's "Constructions in Metal". Nice.


----------



## Schubussy

arcaneholocaust said:


> Practically a birthplace for death metal in general.
> 
> In fairness, one could simply say that black metal is, for the most part, a bit of a joke in the Western hemisphere. Death metal has been great from California to Finland, but I would probably give the edge to the States (Morbid Angel, Deicide, Possessed, Atheist, Incantation, Autopsy, etc... though early At The Gates, Therion, Demilich, Massacra, Unleashed, Demigod, etc is plenty delicious as well.
> 
> Black metal though...well, Norway doesn't even need help from the rest of Europe to embarrass the U.S. scene.


How is black metal more embarrassing than death metal? The image is ridiculous of course, but is death metal much better there?

As for the music, atmospheric black metal (early Ulver, Negura Bunget) is my favourite metal sub-genre along with doom... and totally free of corpsepaint too.

Most death metal I can't get into at all with a few exceptions.


----------



## drvLock

arcaneholocaust said:


> In fairness, one could simply say that black metal is, for the most part, a bit of a joke in the Western hemisphere.





arcaneholocaust said:


> Black metal though...well, Norway doesn't even need help from the rest of Europe to embarrass the U.S. scene.


I invite you to watch some documentaries on the norwegian black metal scene (there are lots of them on youtube), but specially "Until the Light Takes Us". You'll notice that even though there were some kind of "bad blood" between norwegian BM musicians and (mainly) Sweden death metal musicians, this was kept only to the european countries. They didn't recognize a "scene" in the US, back then. So, their actions and thoughts weren't aimed at any US bands at that time.

Nowadays, you even have travelling agencies that offer a tour on the places were some of the events that took place in the 90's happened, like the place where the store "Helvete" was created, the sites of church burnings, etc.

Black metal is considered a part of the culture of Norway. So, by making assumptions like you did, you're not only criticizing (or being ironic at?) a sub-genre of heavy metal, but the very culture of a country.


----------



## Guest

I'm not sure you understood what he was saying - he was implying that Norway so dominates the Black Metal genre, that it alone, without the help of any other European countries, beats the U.S. in that genre.

But to talk about criticizing Black Metal is to criticize Norwegian culture is absurd. Touring sites of church burnings? Really? Yeah, we had church buildings here in the American South by the Ku Klux Klan - nothing we are proud of, and criticizing any group that would burn churches is typically not seen as a bad thing. I don't think that most Norwegians consider that a positive aspect of their culture.


----------



## Majed Al Shamsi

I hated...









And still hate it.


----------



## Guest

DrMike said:


> I'm not sure you understood what he was saying - he was implying that Norway so dominates the Black Metal genre, that it alone, without the help of any other European countries, beats the U.S. in that genre.


Yes, this is what I meant. You definitely misunderstood. I am plenty well-informed on what happened in the Norwegian black metal scene.

I did not mean to imply that there is any more "embarrassment" in either genre. I was referring to the fact that the European black metal scene is so far superior to the American black metal scene, while the death metal scenes are on more even footing.

Edit: In fact, I'm not sure where exactly both Schubussy and drvLock somehow misinterpreted my point...


----------



## Schubussy

arcaneholocaust said:


> Yes, this is what I meant. You definitely misunderstood. I am plenty well-informed on what happened in the Norwegian black metal scene.
> 
> I did not mean to imply that there is any more "embarrassment" in either genre. I was referring to the fact that the European black metal scene is so far superior to the American black metal scene, while the death metal scenes are on more even footing.
> 
> Edit: In fact, I'm not sure where exactly both Schubussy and drvLock somehow misinterpreted my point...


Sorry, wasn't really paying attention, although I think of Norway as being the Western Hemisphere too so I thought you were just saying it was a joke there too.. rereading your post I feel a bit dumb now.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Simon Moon said:


> Since Florida is considered the birthplace of technical death-metal, I don't believe the States are 'pretenders'.


Well, aside from Exhorder- which is from New Orleans- name a great metal act from Florida. I'm certainly willing to revise my premises in light of new evidence. _;D_


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, aside from Exhorder- which is from New Orleans- name a great metal act from Florida. I'm certainly willing to revise my premises in light of new evidence. _;D_


Morbid Angel, Deicide, Atheist, for starters...


----------



## jani

Do you like metal?

More like " Do you worship satan".


----------



## Guest

jani said:


> Do you like metal?
> 
> More like " Do you worship satan".


I am confused. I thought you knew better than this kind of soccer mom question.


----------



## Blake

Jani looks like a metal-dude in that avatar. And he's from Finland. What's going on here? Not a fan of your brethren Moonsorrow?


----------



## jani

arcaneholocaust said:


> I am confused. I thought you knew better than this kind of soccer mom question.





Vesuvius said:


> Jani looks like a metal-dude in that avatar. And he's from Finland. What's going on here? Not a fan of your brethren Moonsorrow?












Just saw these guys live on last Saturday.


----------



## Guest

Just checking, jani.


----------



## Guest

arcaneholocaust said:


> I am confused. I thought you knew better than this kind of soccer mom question.


I do think it is rather childish of metal bands, playing the whole devil worship game (unless they are really satanists). I am sure they think they are making some kind of point with it, but honestly, this extremely small corner of the metal scene, and of the music scene in general, is so unlikely to effectively push any kind of message, it is like a single child staging a one-person boycott. They look more like freaks. Except for those, so intent on making that point, that they take it to the next level and actually burn churches. We get it - you were the kids in school that never had any friends and were really wimpy, so now you play in some death/black metal band and pretend to be all evil and bada** to try to get people to think you are edgy and cool.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

arcaneholocaust said:


> Morbid Angel, Deicide, Atheist, for starters...


Ummmmmmmmmmm. . . I don't know. Some of the music; maybe. I like it heroic and aggressive rather than morbid and morose.


----------



## Guest

DrMike said:


> I do think it is rather childish of metal bands, playing the whole devil worship game (unless they are really satanists). I am sure they think they are making some kind of point with it, but honestly, this extremely small corner of the metal scene, and of the music scene in general, is so unlikely to effectively push any kind of message, it is like a single child staging a one-person boycott. They look more like freaks. Except for those, so intent on making that point, that they take it to the next level and actually burn churches. We get it - you were the kids in school that never had any friends and were really wimpy, so now you play in some death/black metal band and pretend to be all evil and bada** to try to get people to think you are edgy and cool.


A black metal band with "devil worship" lyrics that are really a front for protesting organized religion is no different than a punk band with "anarchist" lyrics that are really a front for protesting various forms of government.

That being said, it's still a little "childish" I suppose. But I'd rather have genuinely spirited metal with some immature lyrics (that I probably can't understand all the time anyway) than any of the other vapid stuff you'll find.

And I'm not sure where anyone would get the notion that ANY of the "heroic" metal out there is more aggressive than the first Morbid Angel record or the second Deicide record. Most of the earliest American death metal bands were primarily concerned with taking all the leftover restraint out of the early Slayer albums anyway. It really doesn't get any more "ballsy".

Edit: I should note, however, that I used to listen to metal all the damn time, and now I rarely listen to it at all, so it's become more of a mood thing. I can get a "heroic" equivalent with classical music. I really can't get anything like early Bathory, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Mayhem, Sarcofago, Blasphemy, Beherit, etc...with classical music.


----------



## Guest

arcaneholocaust said:


> A black metal band with "devil worship" lyrics that are really a front for protesting organized religion is no different than a punk band with "anarchist" lyrics that are really a front for protesting various forms of government.
> 
> That being said, it's still a little "childish" I suppose. But I'd rather have genuinely spirited metal with some immature lyrics (that I probably can't understand all the time anyway) than any of the other vapid stuff you'll find.
> 
> And I'm not sure where anyone would get the notion that ANY of the "heroic" metal out there is more aggressive than the first Morbid Angel record or the second Deicide record. Most of the earliest American death metal bands were primarily concerned with taking all the leftover restraint out of the early Slayer albums anyway. It really doesn't get any more "ballsy".
> 
> Edit: I should note, however, that I used to listen to metal all the damn time, and now I rarely listen to it at all, so it's become more of a mood thing. I can get a "heroic" equivalent with classical music. I really can't get anything like early Bathory, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Mayhem, Sarcofago, Blasphemy, Beherit, etc...with classical music.


I agree about the comparison between punk and metal - and it also speaks to this issue that most fans of such music are much younger, when the impulse is to tear the whole system down because you don't particularly like something. In both cases, the impulse is to go to anti-social behavior. Even older punk bands move on from this - a lot of the earlier punk that was pro-anarchy has now evolved, and we now have older punk bands (seems like that should be an oxymoron) who, rather than having anarchistic tendencies, are much more politically liberal, and supportive of left/liberal forms of government (in the U.S., most of the older punk bands are decidedly pro-Democrat, or Green - which are definitely parties within the system of government - rather than anarchic).

For me, I don't care for the immature lyrics, or the obsession with over the top perverted violence. I like to still be shocked that people imagine such things - even if it is purely for shock value. And while I can appreciate that there is skill in the playing of the instruments, the combination that results is completely unappealing to me - the excessive drums, bass, and guitar. And add on top of that lyrics that are either screamed or growled in such a way as to be nearly uninterpretable makes me ask . . . why?


----------



## millionrainbows

I don't see the use of 'devil-worship' lyrics as 'immature,' but rather an attempt for the adolescent in Puritanical America to tap-into his 'dark side' and free-up his 'id,' so he can have sex and feel some emotion. All of his humanity has thus far been quaushed by our public school system, and our relentless desire to succeed and be a productive robot-worker.

Until the American process of socializing our adolescents begins to get in touch with the realities of being human, then I'm afraid that things like heavy metal music, Grand Theft Auto, drugs, guns, Columbine, and inflated 'rap' macho identities for males will persist.


----------



## Guest

Metal music persists for the same reason the other music persists. Some people like how it sounds.


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> I don't see the use of 'devil-worship' lyrics as 'immature,' but rather an attempt for the adolescent in Puritanical America to tap-into his 'dark side' and free-up his 'id,' so he can have sex and feel some emotion. All of his humanity has thus far been quaushed by our public school system, and our relentless desire to succeed and be a productive robot-worker.
> 
> Until the American process of socializing our adolescents begins to get in touch with the realities of being human, then I'm afraid that things like heavy metal music, Grand Theft Auto, drugs, guns, Columbine, and inflated 'rap' macho identities for males will persist.


Pray tell - what would be a more ideal goal for said adolescent? You talk about being successful and productive in derogatory terms - you assume the opposite to be preferable? Survival is one of our basic instincts. In this day and age, to survive means to be successful in doing something that allows you to survive, preferably with a certain level of comfort. Now, you could be all non-conformist and shun success and productivity, but that doesn't tend to put food in your stomach. I suppose you could rely on others to put that food in your stomach, but then ultimately you are still relying on someone out there to be successful and productive to subsidize your lack thereof.

What are the realities of being human? Yes, there are some baser instincts in us, which things like heavy metal music, GTA, drugs, etc., tap into. But there used to be this notion that we should strive to improve ourselves, and learn to shrug off our baser emotions. Progress is made when we make the conscious choice to work towards a common good. Anti-social behavior and espousing anti-everything ideologies are great in those teenage years when you like to wrap yourself in this aura that you are so much different than EVERYBODY else, but eventually you come to learn that one of the greatest things about being human is that we are all, in a lot of real ways, so much alike. That isn't being robot-like. That is what it is to be human. We share so many things in common, that you actually have to grasp at these fringe ideas to try and distinguish yourself from everybody else. That doesn't mean you can't still leave your own positive, unique mark on society. But there is strength in a common heritage.

And I find it humorous to think that someone would call America Puritanical. True, we don't have window shopping for prostitution, and I'm pretty sure there is no sex tourism industry in the U.S. where pedophiles can find easy access to under-aged sex toys, but puritanical we are not. I think it is also ridiculous to think that reaching your full potential can only be achieved by tapping into every base instinct, as if rutting like a rabbit and screaming into a microphone about having sex with the bodies of dead baby (I refer you to the lyrics for Cannibal Corpse's song "Necropedophile" if you can stand it) while praising the glory of the devil somehow frees up your "id."


----------



## Morimur

Violent and obscene media negatively impact human behavior. If one believes otherwise, it's because one is either apathetic or one does not wish to condemn that which one enjoys.


----------



## Blake

Sure, but living in a society that magnifies the worst of the human aspect - fear, lust, greed, etc... doesn't get the youth off to a great start. They're automatically bombarded with negativity from their inception. Our world reeks of it. Luckily the beauty that is natural in life is rather invincible, because anything less would break under such ignorance.


----------



## Morimur

Vesuvius said:


> Sure, but living in a society that magnifies the worst of the human aspect - fear, lust, greed, etc... doesn't get the youth off to a great start. They're automatically bombarded with negativity from their inception. Our world reeks of it. Luckily the beauty that is natural in life is rather invincible, because anything less would break under such ignorance.


The media is the mouthpiece of our decrepit society. Right is wrong and wrong is right--this is our slogan. Anything is permissible so long as it doesn't mess with the bottom line: $$$. Truth is to be avoided at all cost and our so called 'freedom' is actually slavery. We all serve a master and sadly it's usually money, sex or both.


----------



## Blake

Lope de Aguirre said:


> The media is the mouthpiece of our decrepit society. Right is wrong and wrong is right--this is our slogan. Anything is permissible so long as it doesn't mess with the bottom line: $$$. Truth is to be avoided at all cost and our so called 'freedom' is actually slavery. We all serve a master and sadly it's usually money, sex or both.


The sad part is that it doesn't have to be this way. We have so much potential! The hell are we doing?


----------



## hpowders

What the hell am I doing chained to a computer 24/7 wasting my life away. I would give anything to get that key, keeping me here.


----------



## Blake

hpowders said:


> What the hell am I doing chained to a computer 24/7 wasting my life away. I would give anything to get that key, keeping me here.


Probably because the world is such a bore the way it is that you have to come to this far off corner on the internet to have some fairly intelligent conversations in you life. Haha.


----------



## Antiquarian

Lets all buy camos, guns and ammo, and build a fallout shelter for the coming cultural apocolypse! Actually, joking aside, I do feel that TC is a kind of haven from the prevailing cultural malaise that seems to be infecting the world.


----------



## Morimur

hpowders said:


> What the hell am I doing chained to a computer 24/7 wasting my life away.


Don't know about you, hpowders but for me that's called a job.


----------



## scratchgolf

Lope de Aguirre said:


> The media is the mouthpiece of our decrepit society. Right is wrong and wrong is right--this is our slogan. Anything is permissible so long as it doesn't mess with the bottom line: $$$. Truth is to be avoided at all cost and our so called 'freedom' is actually slavery. We all serve a master and sadly it's usually money, sex or both.


This post would make a great verse for a heavy metal song. Just saying.


----------



## Morimur

scratchgolf said:


> This post would make a great verse for a heavy metal song. Just saying.


How dare you, Sir!


----------



## Antiquarian

Well, to get back to the topic at hand, I don't like the vast majority of metal music. Not because of the instrumentation, because the bands are, for the most part technically proficient on their instruments, but because of the themes and lyrics. The subject matter just doesn't appeal. If Schubert had written Die Shöne Müllerin without Max's poetry, and instead used the sexually provocative lyrics that seems prevalent today, I would not enjoy listening to it.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

It used to be my favorite music, and that was at a time when I was much more religious than now The stuff I listened to contained zero devil worship, but lots of fantasy, myths and folksy atmosphere, with bands like Nightwish, Manowar, Moonsorrow, Therion etc. Now I am kind of weaning myself off of it, in favor of classical of course.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

SiegendesLicht said:


> It used to be my favorite music, and that was at a time when I was much more religious than now The stuff I listened to contained zero devil worship, but lots of fantasy, myths and folksy atmosphere, with bands like Nightwish, Manowar, Moonsorrow, Therion etc. Now I am kind of weaning myself off of it, in favor of classical of course.


Nightwish! Oh yeah!


----------



## Morimur

What really strikes me about metal is just how absolutely goofy and tacky the whole genre is. The lyrics are high school poetry of the worst kind and while a lot of the bands can play their instruments, they can't compose. Its all about image and marketing.


----------



## Guest

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What really strikes me about metal is just how absolutely goofy and tacky the whole genre is. The lyrics are high school poetry of the worst kind and while a lot of the bands can play their instruments, they can't compose. Its all about image and marketing.


That's what happens when you're a subgenre of rock music.

But after the '50s or so, has music ever been about such things? (besides that weird thing called contemporary classical music)

You're just need to feel the music, bro.


----------



## Simon Moon

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What really strikes me about metal is just how absolutely goofy and tacky the whole genre is. The lyrics are high school poetry of the worst kind and while a lot of the bands can play their instruments, they can't compose. Its all about image and marketing.


I do not agree that this statement applies to all forms of metal.

There is some pretty sophisticated and thoughtful metal, with lyrics quite a bit better than what you are describing.

The problem is, most people only know metal by the most mainstream bands. But there is a huge underground of interesting metal.


----------



## Fratello

Weston said:


> I do like metal. Heck, I was listening to it or its prototypes before many of you were born. I just don't think it belongs in a classical music forum to the extent that it is brought up.
> 
> There IS a very tenuous connection. Someone once determined that most Black Sabbath music is modal and made an album of Black Sabbath songs as Gregorian chants. Interesting, but a novelty at best. Also some of the early metal vocals had the same kinds of powerful projection that opera singers can attain. But there's otherwise no comparison between the two genre's.
> 
> I'm afraid I think most of the metal posturing is pretty silly though. I just like the sound of power chords and open fifths and the hypnotic effect of a good riff. Think of it as a guilty pleasure.
> 
> I have to laugh at the Cookie Monster vocals so prevalent in today's metal. I preferred the talented singers who could belt out a note with astonishing power going all the way back to the pre-metal days of hard rock. Ian Gillan may have been one of the earliest of these.
> 
> I also think Tony Iommi showed amazing creativity by taking a horrible accident (two of his finger tips were ripped off in an industrial accident the last day of his factory job before quitting to be a professionaql musician). He took this handicap and tuned his guitar a bit lower to make the strings easier to press, made prosthetic finger extensions out of melted plastic bottles, and invented that slushy plodding doomy sound that so many later imitated. Today he is widely respected as the architect of metal and he still cranks out the doomy riffs without repeating himself. Really, a remarkable human being.
> 
> But I was a classical fan first.


Hello , there , you may want to try this band out , dont freak out bcs they are japanese , listen to their music ... you will find alot of classical music in it !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galneryus


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## AliceKettle

No, I don't like it. Not only is it not singing but screaming. It's horrible for your vocal chords health.


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## starthrower

Which kind? Hair Metal? Death Metal? Black Metal? Speed Metal? Doom? Thrash?


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## Guest

"Screaming" is only detrimental if done incorrectly.


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## Blake

I actually find a good scream now and again is quite healthy. In a world like this it's probably good to scream a few times a day, actually.


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## Dustin

I like some metal music when there are good riffs and melody. I don't enjoy repetitive metal music that relies on super-fast uncreative riffs being played over and over and the singer screaming at the top of his lungs.


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## Blake

You know, I think the reason I still like Metal is that it's one of the few genres that really (unapologetically) lets out a primal scream. So many energies get cooped up in society by trying to maintain the 'social etiquette' that many seek a catharsis, as it's not natural to be so royally conditioned and proper. Metal is one of those tools of catharsis. 

Of course there are plenty of silly bands full of teenage angst and no real insight on the world, but you sift through that stuff if desired.


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## Dustin

I'm all for screaming to let off some steam but grab a pillow man, not a microphone.

But that's just me. Lots of people like it apparently. I'm not a big Metallica fan by any means but to give an example I'll use them. Those guys play metal and yet they still have a singer that sings with melody and nice phrasing of his words. He is somewhat yelling but it's not one of those all-out primal screams at the top of the lungs you hear from some bands.


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## Guest

Screaming is silly.
















I'll take a nice growl over screaming any day


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## Blake

arcaneholocaust said:


> Screaming is silly.


I remember back in the day I had a particular preference for death growls over black screams... now it's the opposite. I find bands like Moonsorrow, Borknagar, Finsterforst, Falkenbach... just purge my primal tendencies.


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## Guest

I like black metal vocals too. I would call that more of a "shriek/rasp/etc" to differentiate from what most people refer to as "screaming": the post-hardcore/metalcore/etc thing that is really just refined yelling.


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## Blake

arcaneholocaust said:


> I like black metal vocals too. I would call that more of a "shriek/rasp/etc" to differentiate from what most people refer to as "screaming": the post-hardcore/metalcore/etc thing that is really just refined yelling.


Ah, yea. Not too big into Metalcore stuff. I've found that's normally where the younger metal-heads flock too. Teenage angst is ridden there.


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## Guest

Granted I don't really care much for most of the "folk/black" side of black metal either, but I like some. Have you heard Negura Bunget's Om? Obvious gem, right there. Ulver's Bergtatt too, of course.


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## Blake

arcaneholocaust said:


> Granted I don't really care much for most of the "folk/black" side of black metal either, but I like some. Have you heard Negura Bunget's Om? Obvious gem, right there. Ulver's Bergtatt too, of course.


The folk/black is where my heart's at, man. But yea, the other's are pretty sweet, as well. Ulver makes me think of Borknagar... and they're just supreme.

And sprinkle some Immortal in there. Some Imperium Dekadenz....


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## Guest

Another more atmospheric band I really enjoy would be The Ruins Of Beverast, but their atmospheric side leans more towards dark ambient than folk. I totally agree with you about the primal aspect of metal being one of it's most significant attributes (if not _the_ most important); thus a lot of my black metal listenings will go to the Norwegian albums of the early '90s along with Bathory/Sarcofago/Beherit and the like.

Perhaps early Aeternus might count as folk-influenced too? Love them!


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## Blake

arcaneholocaust said:


> Another more atmospheric band I really enjoy would be The Ruins Of Beverast, but their atmospheric side leans more towards dark ambient than folk. I totally agree with you about the primal aspect of metal being one of it's most significant attributes (if not _the_ most important); thus a lot of my black metal listenings will go to the Norwegian albums of the early '90s along with Bathory/Sarcofago/Beherit and the like.
> 
> Perhaps early Aeternus might count as folk-influenced too? Love them!


Aha, you responded just as I was editing. Gotta sprinkle a bit of Immortal in that sauce.


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## Blake

Another late band that's been on the top of my heap... although they departed a bit from the traditional BM, is In the Woods... I was fascinated with them for a bit.


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## Guest

Have I ever liked any music by bands that might be classed as 'metal'? Yes. But, as a genre generally, no. Might have had something to do with rooming my first year in college with a guy who only had one album..._Rainbow Rising._


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## Blake

Can dig on some Windir, some Summoning, some viking-era Bathory. Damnit, now I'm in a Metal mood again.


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## steveaoki

Yeah! I really like Metal music.


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## csolomonholmes

I like Roots era Sepultura. The whole Brazilian vibe, especially the rhythms, mixed with the low tuned distorted guitars and guttural vocals produced something very special and set the standard for a whole new level of heavy. I also really like Meshuggah's use of odd time, repetition, and simplicity in the way they create their rhythms. The stuff on the "I" ep and "catch thirty-three" is some of the heaviest if not just plain brutal music ever produced.


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## Blake

Meshuggah scares me.


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## Morimur

csolomonholmes said:


> I also really like Meshuggah's use of odd time, repetition, and simplicity in the way they create their rhythms. The stuff on the "I" ep and "catch thirty-three" is some of the heaviest if not just plain brutal music ever produced.


Yeah, except it's all in 4/4 time. so much for extreme.


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## Morimur

IAmNotABurger said:


> metal rulzz i laik lil wayne and soulijja boyyy


Nothing funny about brain damage.


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## Blake

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Yeah, except it's all in 4/4 time. so much for extreme.


There's a lot more than time signature that makes things extreme.


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## Morimur

I find the work of the following bands to be 'extreme'...

01. Zevious
02. Altered States (Japan)
03. Ahleuchatistas
04. The Claudia Quintet


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## Morimur

IAmNotABurger said:


> admin he hating me no reazon ban plis


I ain't hatin', dog. You trippin'!


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## Morimur

Vesuvius said:


> There's a lot more than time signature that makes things extreme.


Wut!? You trippin'.


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## Blake

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Wut!? You trippin'.


Nah, dawg. Black Metal is probably one of the most technically deficient genres of all time, but it's surely extreme.


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## Guest

I will have to look into Altered States and Zevious.

Meshuggah certainly have a technically competent drummer, but the 8-string guitar gimmick and the vocalist, who seems to double as a pro-wrestler suffering from bloody diarrhea...yeah, it's all boring as hell to me.

And yeah, most underground black metal bands don't even bother to play in time, lol.


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## Cheyenne

I must admit, I've got the bug. For some time I felt like Faust in the first act of Goethe's drama; 'till I picked up my old CD of _The Headless Children_ (awful title -- I know) and realized the only reason I wasn't listening to it anymore was snobbery. Generally I listen for the vocalists. Graham Bonnet, Blackie Lawless, Ripper Owens, Joe Comeau and Yukio Morikawa are among my favorites. The latter is great too because he sings mostly in Japanese -- with only a few English catch-words. That way, I can avoid the generally awful lyrics. Here the only noteworthy English bit is "such a lonely age" -- which is abstract enough not to be platitudinous, and invokes a certain pathos when surrounded by vague Japanese lyrics which I happily fill in myself. Satiates me!


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## Blake

I do find that looking at Metal for some kind of artistic virtuosity is really missing the point.


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## Cheyenne

I find looking for virtuosity in nearly any kind of music rather pointless -- Heifetz placing his microphone so close to his violin that the orchestra is drowned out annoys me as much as Malmsteen's customary ego tirades in Alcatrazz. You must excuse my poor phrasing earlier: I merely meant that the vocalists are the focal points to me, as the guitar playing may be to others; I find few solo albums -- those by vocalists I mentioned myself earlier especially -- worthwhile.


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## Blake

Yea, which is really why I find this speed/shredder metal to be kind of a joke... it's vacant of nearly everything substantial I look for in music. But, of course, that's just my take.


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## Blake

Starting to rekindle my appreciation for Opeth lately. Really great band.

_Morningrise_


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## Bored

What is your definition of "metal"? If you consider bands like Metallica and Motorhead metal bands then yes, I like them and are fans.


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## Serge

Yes, I like my metal straight please.


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## SONNET CLV

Forget Zeppelin, Motörhead, Saxon ... 

_This_ is the ultimate in English "metal" music.









*Church Bells (A Collection of Church Bell Ringing from English Villages)*_ by_ Church Bell Ringers (2013)

A collection of Church Bell recordings suitable for all occasions, traditional bellringing from English country Churches.

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/churchbellringers2


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## Posie

Only Rammstein (not exactly metal; it's pop-metal). Nothing else.


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## Guest

From what little I've heard of Rammstein before jamming my fingers in my ears each time, they are not metal, and that includes "pop-metal" (?). Sounds pretty much like a confused electro-industrial rock band reaching out to pre-teens.


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## Posie

arcaneholocaust said:


> From what little I've heard of Rammstein before jamming my fingers in my ears each time, they are not metal, and that includes "pop-metal" (?). Sounds pretty much like a confused electro-industrial rock band reaching out to pre-teens.


Technically, it's Neue Deutche Härte "new German hard (music)", but it developed in the mid-90's, so it's getting too old to be new. I didn't know what else to call it.

You call it confused; I call it eclectic.


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## captain charles ryder

I loved metal when I was young. But now I'm too old to listen this style.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Metal was the first musical form I listened to extensively. I started getting interested in classical because of how present it was in metal music. Especially in the guitar solos and in the dual guitar harmonies. I mainly listen to classical now, but once in a while I turn on some metal. It gets the blood flowing.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

marinasabina said:


> Technically, it's Neue Deutche Härte "new German hard (music)", but it developed in the mid-90's, so it's getting too old to be new. I didn't know what else to call it.
> 
> You call it confused; I call it eclectic.


Rammstein is almost like the adult contemporary of harder music. I don't get why people don't consider them metal. It's all the right ingredients for metal. Their first 2 albums were borderline thrash in places. It's certainly heavy. I'm just trying to understand what people consider metal. If you can call Megadeth or Slayer metal, you should be able to call Rammstein metal, and no language barrier or keyboard solos can keep that from being the case. Iron Maiden used keyboards, and people consider them legends of metal. If you can call that cookie monster **** people are doing these days metal...

I like metal, but I guess you can't call me a metal-head because I don't worship Lemmy or Ozzy.


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## Guest

Musical genres, although ideologies in themselves, are not entirely determined by timbre and what not. The girl in a past music appreciation class of mine, that argued that "Eleanor Rigby" would be classical music if it was instrumental, has a cute opinion, but it's really not worth much. Likewise, the fact that some of these new Swans' tunes are "heavier" than the vast majority of metal music, does not make Swans a metal band.

Like I said, of the little amount of Rammstein I heard, it basically sounded like semi-commercialized electro-industrial rock. And as far as semi-commercialized electro-industrial rock goes, I'd rather listen to _Pretty Hate Machine_.


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## Lukecash12

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> Rammstein is almost like the adult contemporary of harder music. I don't get why people don't consider them metal. It's all the right ingredients for metal. Their first 2 albums were borderline thrash in places. It's certainly heavy. I'm just trying to understand what people consider metal. If you can call Megadeth or Slayer metal, you should be able to call Rammstein metal, and no language barrier or keyboard solos can keep that from being the case. Iron Maiden used keyboards, and people consider them legends of metal. If you can call that cookie monster **** people are doing these days metal...
> 
> I like metal, but I guess you can't call me a metal-head because I don't worship Lemmy or Ozzy.


Yeah, that's my only beef with metal: the cookie monster music. It's just plain dumb, I'm sorry but that's my honest opinion. And don't even get me started on the terrible lyrics nowadays, I kind of wish System of a Down had taken a "how not to sound like a whiney little child" course, let alone a philosophy course or maybe reading some Walton or other decent prose. Metallica talked seriously about PTSD, Hemingway, the whole issue of pride, and then System turns around and just complains about everything or tries to sound cool saying "she's like heroin". We get it guys, you think you're really cool. And that pretty much sums up a lot of metal nowadays.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I used to be very into metal. One of those Pantera or nothing guys. I just got really sick of the superiority metal-heads have to themselves and the bands they like. It's almost like hooligans and football. You could go to a Megadeth show, but you better not wear a Korn shirt when you are there. That line is drawn in the sand, and it's some how wrong to cross it, so I just decided I'd go and listen to everything the "true" metal-heads hated. 

I still play some metal albums, and I still like to make up metal riffs, I just don't want to be a part of that world anymore. You don't even want to hint at being metal, if you don't plan on going full on metal. It's almost like it's a bad thing to work hard and experiment. Since when did the words "over produced" become a bad thing?


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## Morimur

If I were dictator for life, I'd criminalize the manufacturing and consumption of metal music. My argument? It contributes nothing useful to society and corrupts young, impressionable minds. It's also artistically worthless.


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## Guest

Ooh good a Stalinist attitude. No doubt all you enjoy is useful and of value.


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## Morimur

gog said:


> Ooh good a Stalinist attitude. No doubt all you enjoy is useful and of value.


Good music is useful and valuable. Good music is therapeutic and stimulates the brain. Metal? It's just played loudly and repeats itself ad nauseam. How interesting. ZZZZZZZ...


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## Guest

These days, the only time I would REALLY mind if you took all my metal, Lope, is when I'm mowing the lawn. You can't have music of variable dynamics when you need to hear it over a lawn mower!

If you turn it up high enough to hear the pianissimos over that thing, the fortissimos are going to blow your earbuds right out of your head


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## Blake

Bands like Evoken and Esoteric are so freakin' heavy it's really an act of purging. Crushing my ego, and then crushes the space my ego was in.

Not many can bear the weight of oceans. 

Evoken's _Antitheses of Light_








Esoteric's _Paragon of Dissonance_


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## Guest

I slightly prefer Caress Of The Void from Evoken and The Maniacal Vale from Esoteric, but yes, fun bands.


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## Blake

... and Monolithe's _II_


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## Guest

My favorite (and one of my all-time favorite albums from any metal genre) would still be Skepticism's first album, but it's produced in a way that it's really not comparable any more. The guitars and bass are mixed so low that you're trading "heaviness" for more of an ambient experience.


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## Blake

I've heard of Skepticism, but haven't checked out their work yet. I'll do that though, as I'm into this slow and crushing vibe right now. Mournful Congregation is another one I've been meaning to check out.


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## Guest

I love Mournful Congregation as well, but I will say that their later, more "crushing" albums don't have the substance of later Evoken or Esoteric. The latter two got better, while the first two were better at producing captivating melodies early on. I would highly recommend the first two Skepticism albums (_Alloy_ isn't too bad either, I suppose) and the two Mournful Congregation demos (_Weeping _but especially An _Epic Dream Of Desire_) along with their one great mature album _The Monad Of Creation_.

The other two bands in the subgenre that have held my interest all these years are Thergothon (fairly "lo-fi", but, along with early Skepticism, the fathers of this whole "funeral doom" thing) and Dolorian (essentially a more ambient and succinct Esoteric - lots of reverbed-up clean passages). Check out _Stream From The Heavens_ and _Voidwards_ from each, respectively.

Also try Warning/40 Watt Sun if you like the vibe but don't mind a more melodramatic approach. Essentially where the clean vocals of bands like Revelation and Solitude Aeturnus meet the sheer weight of the bands already mentioned. The lyrics on _Watching From A Distance_ and _The Inside Room_ are deeply personal and fitting for the cathartic music, but this also lends to their main criticism: the word "whiny" is thrown around a lot.


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## Blake

Thanks, a. I'll give all of that a look.


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## Guest

My absolute favorite tracks from the above recommendations:


























Enjoy


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## Blake

Nice. I'm too melancholic of a person not to like this.

Here's one from Esoteric's latest that I've really been impressed with.


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## Guest

Yeah, I could tell that newer album of theirs was really great, but the pinnacle of my Esoteric fetish was around 2009-2010, and The Maniacal Vale scratched that itch so frequently that it can hardly just be displaced. Also, given the length of the typical metal album, Esoteric was like the equivalent of listening to Wagner at that time


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## Blake

Yea, their albums require a certain commitment.


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## DiesIraeCX

Well, not sure if Tool is considered Metal, but I used to be obsessed with them along with NIN, but that was so long ago! I enjoyed Isis (an unfortunate band name considered the situation in Iraq! lol) when I saw them open up for Tool back in 2006.


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## Guest

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Well, not sure if Tool is considered Metal, but I used to be obsessed with them along with NIN, but that was so long ago! I enjoyed Isis (an unfortunate band name considered the situation in Iraq! lol) when I saw them open up for Tool back in 2006.


Neither Tool nor NIN is considered metal, but that's exactly how I first heard ISIS as well (yes, the band is even capitalized too!). Opening for Tool in 9/06, I believe it was. Saw them headline a show a little later ('09). I am even hesitant to talk about ISIS in metal circles because, although they are definitely metal, their aesthetic is really more along the lines of the whole late '90s post-rock scene (they just flip the distortion switch for the post-rock crescendos, basically).

Edit: I just noticed your location of Houston. I saw them in Dallas


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## DiesIraeCX

arcaneholocaust said:


> Neither Tool nor NIN is considered metal, but that's exactly how I first heard ISIS as well (yes, the band is even capitalized too!). Opening for Tool in 9/06, I believe it was. Saw them headline a show a little later ('09). I am even hesitant to talk about ISIS in metal circles because, although they are definitely metal, their aesthetic is really more along the lines of the whole late '90s post-rock scene (they just flip the distortion switch for the post-rock crescendos, basically).
> 
> Edit: I just noticed your location of Houston. I saw them in Dallas


Awesome! Yeah man, I saw them in 2006 as well but unfortunately Maynard was sick or something was wrong with his voice and he had the audience sing HALF OF THE SONGS for him!! He even got annoyed when the audience didn't know certain lyrics, which to be honest, after that performance, I understand why people weren't in the best mood to sing along. There was a huge line of people getting their refunds after the show.

That aside, I still love Tool. While I'm pretty sure I've outgrown NIN completely. It's kinda sad, I still have sooooo many NIN CDs, I mean, obscure remix CDs that you can only find online. They just don't speak to me anymore, but *The Downward Spiral *is still a classic. I still pop it in every now and then on account of the brilliant complex music, not so much the lyrics.


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## Guest

There's always something different at Tool shows, based on what I've heard. During mine, Maynard announced before the final encore (Aenima) that he really had to ****. Towards the end of the song, he switched out the repeated words "Learn to swim! Learn to swim!" for "Got to ****! Got to ****!"


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## neoshredder

I like Hair Metal. Yes the lyrics in those songs aren't too metal usually. But they have killer guitar players and some pretty wicked singing. Especially Steelheart. And tbh, when I am drinking, I am looking for a good time. And they usually excel in that area. Though I like some Metallica, Ozzy, and Pantera as well. Basically, whatever I'm in the mood for. I can listen to some of the heavier metal at times. Like Fear Factory, Sepultura, Slayer, and etc.


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## Guest

By hair metal, I assume you mean glam metal?


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## Blake

arcaneholocaust said:


> By hair metal, I assume you mean glam metal?


Yea... big hair, make-up, dress like women, and sing about women. It's really like "pop" metal. Can't say I didn't enjoy some in my younger partying days, but I don't have much use for it now.


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## Guest

I still find Motley Crue's Shout At The Devil to have fun tunes, but I find the term "hair metal" confusing if it's used to lump glam metal, power metal, thrash metal, etc all into one term. Best to just say "glam metal" and leave Metallica and kin out of it.


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## Blake

arcaneholocaust said:


> I still find Motley Crue's Shout At The Devil to have fun tunes, but I find the term "hair metal" confusing if it's used to lump glam metal, power metal, thrash metal, etc all into one term. Best to just say "glam metal" and leave Metallica and kin out of it.


I never lumped thrash, power, etc as hair metal. Hair metal was always just another term for glam metal.


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## Guest

Vesuvius said:


> I never lumped thrash, power, etc as hair metal. Hair metal was always just another term for glam metal.


I know  I was referring to neoshredder's post.


----------



## neoshredder

Vesuvius said:


> Yea... big hair, make-up, dress like women, and sing about women. It's really like "pop" metal. Can't say I didn't enjoy some in my younger partying days, but I don't have much use for it now.


For me, it was the opposite. I was trying to be cool to my peers in the 90's. But once I had time on my own, I realize the music I like most. And that was hair metal. I guess I'm not metal enough to be a true metal fan. Oh well. Though I also like some Industrial Metal like Fear Factory.


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## Blake

neoshredder said:


> For me, it was the opposite. I was trying to be cool to my peers in the 90's. But once I had time on my own, I realize the music I like most. And that was hair metal. I guess I'm not metal enough to be a true metal fan. Oh well. Though I also like some Industrial Metal like Fear Factory.


Nah, you're just not angry enough.


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## Zyklus

I didn't really see this thread diverge into many sub-genres of metal; Djent, Death, Nu, Power/Symphonic etc. 
I love Metal in many of its forms. Bands like Animals As Leaders, Meshuggah, Blotted Science, Necrophagist, etc. all have insane talent as far as playing and the music itself.


----------

