# New Recording Of Brian's Gargantuan Gothic Symphony !



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Now here's real news ! Hyperion has just released a live recording of Havergal Brian's legendary Gothic Symphony , his first , a mind-boggling work ,nearly two hours long and calling for a humongous orchestra ,organ , four brass bands , vocal soloists, several choruses including one for children. It's a a setting of the Te Deum with a long orchestral introduction .
It was recorded during this past Summer's world-famous London Proms at the massive Royal Albert hall , with English conductor Martyn Brabbins (correct spelling) , the BBC symphony , and what must have been every choral singer in London .
The only studio recording of this astonishing symphony so far is on the Naxos label, formerly Marco Polo , with Slovak conductor Ondrej Lenard and massed Slovak musicians and singers in Bratislava . 
A live recording,also with the BBC symphony in 1969 under Sir Adrian Boult was available on Testament . 
Brian was born in 1876 and lived until 1972 , was self taught and came from a very poor working class family . He had little success in his lifetime , but his reputation has been growing , there is a Brian society in England which seeks to promote his music, which includes about 31 symphonies and other works. 
The other symphonies are much shorter and call for more modest forces .
You can also see excerpts from this Summer's performance on youtube. 
Try this amazing work ! It's difficult to grasp on first hearing , but you'll be greatly rewarded by further listening . You might describe the composer's style in this work as Vaughan Williams on steroids !


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I like what I have heard from Brian; I have the Naxos recording of The Gothic that you mention as well as a few others.

But I think what prevents me from really getting into him ore is the length of his music (not all of it is huge, I know) and the completely out-of-control structure. 

For the sake of illustration, let's compare the Gothic to Sibelius 7. It's akin to comparing a relentless rant to a concise and calculated eloquent statement. I can only listen to ranting for so long before I beg the speaker to get to the point!


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Well put, Tap. Bravo! I have really fallen in love with the Sibelius *7th* as well.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

People I've come across here say _The Gothic _is better than another work of this kind, Mahler's_ Symphony of A Thousand_. I bought the Mahler ages ago but haven't had the gumption to hear it yet. Music on steroids is not generally my thing really. I haven't heard _The Gothic _but it's always good to have a newer recording of these rarer things, presumably with better sound than the older recordings.

There was a performance of _The Gothic _here in Australia, in Brisbane, Queensland, I think it was within the last year or so. It does seem to be getting a kind of cult following in some places outside of the UK at least...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Now here's real news ! Hyperion has just released a live recording of Havergal Brian's legendary Gothic Symphony ,


Looks like I'm going to have to start saving my pennies. I have the Naxos recording, but I understand this surpasses it.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to start saving my pennies. I have the Naxos recording, but I understand this surpasses it.


Argh! I am going to resist this purchase... but I can already smell failure. Havergal Brian has been an 'almost understood' composer for a couple decades. This could be the breakthrough.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Havergal Brian's first symphony became one of my favourites when I heard the radio broadcast of the Australian premiere earlier this year.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Tapkaara said:


> But I think what prevents me from really getting into him ore is the length of his music (not all of it is huge, I know) and the completely out-of-control structure.


It really and truly is _not _"completely out of control". It isn't even slightly out of control. It is a big work, just as a cathedral is a big building whereas a chapel is a small one. Just as a cathedral has gargoyles and out of the way places, so does _The Gothic_. But it is tightly structrured (some people have argued that its structure is based on that of a cathedral). The worst you can say is that Brian cultivated a style which is "short on transitions and long on parentheses". In that respect, his style is certainly _different _to Sibelius's!



> For the sake of illustration, let's compare the Gothic to Sibelius 7. It's akin to comparing a relentless rant to a concise and calculated eloquent statement.


Many of the symphonies from 12-32 are under 20 minutes and none of the others are more than 30.

Brian would be the first to stand by you in admiration of Sibelius - I daresay he felt he didn't have to be constrained by that composer's style in developing his own.

If you wish to hear something more to your preference in style, try Brian's symphony 16. The Lyrita CD of this work (and 6) is a fine disc.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

& not forgetting Sibelius'_ Kullervo_, which is over an hour, in some performances 70-80 minutes. Just because things are not called symphonies, doesn't mean we can't compare them. Schoenberg's _Gurrelieder_ is another massive work of this type, they all seemed to come in late c19th & early c20th...


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I don't really understand what the "point" of music is...when people say they want the music to "get to the point." What is the point? The end? The climax? If it is the former I don't see why you would like a piece in the first place if you wanted it to end so fast. If it is the latter well then perhaps the climax wouldn't be as powerful without a large buildup. If you are patient that is.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Anton Webern has lots of point. It jsut depends on how you hear his music though.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Anton Webern has lots of point. It jsut depends on how you hear his music though.


How do you mean?


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Manxfeeder said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to start saving my pennies. I have the Naxos recording, but I understand this surpasses it.


I haven't heard the Hyperion yet but I have the Naxos plus a recording made from radio in the 1980s I think. The Naxos seems (just seems) heavier and more ponderous. Like others here I'm in two minds about Brian's work. I just wonder if it's worth buying because, with so much music to hand, will I listen to it often enough? The last Brian I listened to was about 2 years ago.


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

violadude said:


> I don't really understand what the "point" of music is...when people say they want the music to "get to the point." What is the point? The end? The climax? If it is the former I don't see why you would like a piece in the first place if you wanted it to end so fast. If it is the latter well then perhaps the climax wouldn't be as powerful without a large buildup. If you are patient that is.


Just figurative, I suppose. Music that rambles on with no defined thematic material and development, and if through-composed never gets anywhere. I find much of Mahler like this - listening to the last mv of his 6th recently. There IS thematic material obviously but it never seems to cohere. He is unable to build a climax from it... just gets louder and louder then stops and goes quiet, then builds up again...fff, then quiet again etc.

And from what I can recall, Brian's Gothic does have similarities. But one has to allow for music that rambles. It'll appeal to some, not others.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

violadude said:


> I don't really understand what the "point" of music is...when people say they want the music to "get to the point." What is the point? The end? The climax? If it is the former I don't see why you would like a piece in the first place if you wanted it to end so fast. If it is the latter well then perhaps the climax wouldn't be as powerful without a large buildup. If you are patient that is.


Apparently there is a point. One of Rachmaninoff's concerns when performing a work was that he not miss 'the point'. He could be quite despondent afterwards if he felt he missed it.

In two of Richter's performances of Mussorgsky's "Pictures", he 'found' the point in a different place each time.

In Rachmaninoff's case, the point may not have been a climax; maybe it was a transcending theme or something. The points Richter found were climaxes, but different ones.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Frasier said:


> Just figurative, I suppose. Music that rambles on with no defined thematic material and development, and if through-composed never gets anywhere. I find much of Mahler like this - listening to the last mv of his 6th recently. There IS thematic material obviously but it never seems to cohere. He is unable to build a climax from it... just gets louder and louder then stops and goes quiet, then builds up again...fff, then quiet again etc.
> 
> And from what I can recall, Brian's Gothic does have similarities. But one has to allow for music that rambles. It'll appeal to some, not others.


Oh dear, if I hear one more person say Mahler's music has no coherence and just rambles on and on......


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

I suppose ultimately the point is that the composer feels she/he has something to communicate - or hopes to make enough money to buy a meal or two...which doesn't mean that the listener picks up what the composer was trying to say. You only need listen to something like Villa-Lobos' Symphony No.2 to wonder just what the composer was trying to convey. In such an instance I believe that HVL had a point in wanting to try his hand at symphonic style. Whether he was successful and to what degree is another issue but the point, for him, was he wrote another symphony. To me it sprawls. It rambles on and on...


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

violadude said:


> Oh dear, if I hear one more person say Mahler's music has no coherence and just rambles on and on......


[Bzz Bzz]

 If _Frasier_ were a detective, he would be missing clues all over the place.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> [Bzz Bzz]
> 
> If _Frasier_ were a detective, he would be missing clues all over the place.


I'm curious what this [bzz bzz] thing you've been doing lately means? lol


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## Frasier (Mar 10, 2007)

Hilltroll72 said:


> [Bzz Bzz]
> 
> If _Frasier_ were a detective, he would be missing clues all over the place.


Good God I hope I don't need to be a detective to find something in music!! If I wanted to be a detective I wouldn't be looking to music :lol: especially Mahler where there ARE no clues.

The thing I found so RUDE about the last mv of Mahler's 6th was that it had just about exhausted itself, went quiet, fading out. At last, I thought. I drifted into a doze. Suddenly there's this almighty _*bang!*_ and I thought, what the ***k's_* that!*_


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

violadude said:


> I'm curious what this [bzz bzz] thing you've been doing lately means? lol


I have adopted this [Bzz Bzz] leader to indicate that the message is not to be taken seriously, but is in the nature of a fly buzzing at a window - perhaps annoying, but harmless. _moody_ gave me the idea. If he is reading this, thanks, guy.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Frasier said:


> Good God I hope I don't need to be a detective to find something in music!! If I wanted to be a detective I wouldn't be looking to music :lol: especially Mahler where there ARE no clues.
> 
> The thing I found so RUDE about the last mv of Mahler's 6th was that it had just about exhausted itself, went quiet, fading out. At last, I thought. I drifted into a doze. Suddenly there's this almighty _*bang!*_ and I thought, what the ***k's_* that!*_


[Bzz Bzz]

I too used to be annoyed when music woke me up. Now I am glad that _something_ was able to.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I have adopted this [Bzz Bzz] leader to indicate that the message is not to be taken seriously, but is in the nature of a fly buzzing at a window - perhaps annoying, but harmless. _moody_ gave me the idea. If he is reading this, thanks, guy.


Aw  but I really like some of your bzz bzz messages. But you don't really mean them?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

violadude said:


> Aw  but I really like some of your bzz bzz messages. But you don't really mean them?


Hah. Because they are not 'serious' doesn't indicate that I don't mean them. ( I paused here for several minutes. And decided that I can explain no further, except to suggest that gentle messages are still messages.)


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Sid James said:


> There was a performance of _The Gothic _here in Australia, in Brisbane, Queensland, I think it was within the last year or so. It does seem to be getting a kind of cult following in some places outside of the UK at least...


The Brisbane performance was in December 2010 and, given that it was an entirely amateur venture, it was an extraordinary success. (The Proms performance was managed and delivered by the BBC and cost a third of a million pounds.) The Brisbane orchestra was largely made up of alumni of John Curro, the conductor, and was excellent. The chorus was a triumph if, it has to be said, understaffed - chorusmaster Alison Rogers worked a miracle. Look out for an ABC documentary, _The curse of The Gothic_, produced by Fury Productions, which tells the story of the road to this performance.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Manxfeeder said:


> Looks like I'm going to have to start saving my pennies. I have the Naxos recording, but I understand this surpasses it.


I haven't had a chance to listen to it all - I am behind schedule with my _Fanfare _reviews - but what I have heard is excellent.

Incidentally, for those who baulk at a 105 minute symphony, do remember that Brian sanctioned the performance of Part I as a work in its own right. At 36 minutes, and in three movements for a large but not excessive orchestra, this should satisfy.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Which goes to say, or partially prove my point at least, that in many cases what non mainstream groups are doing here (eg. you say amateurs) is often much more interesting than the "mainstream" flagship groups which mainly cater for vanilla conservative tastes. Apparently I'm ruffling a few feathers by using this word, conservative, around here. I don't like using it but it's probably better than put-downs like narrow minded or something else, which is basically what some of these well let's say narrowly focussed listeners are. I'm all for anything different in this country, rather than the same old same old we get. It's the non-mainstream groups that are the "future" of music in this country, not the flagships and mainstreams, they are just serving the interests of the jurassics and coporates. The so called "fringe" has become more relevant than the mainstreams, which is wierd, shows how out of touch some of the groups funded by the big end of town are...Another rant done and dusted :lol:...


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The Gothic is a work which can easily SEEM rambling and incoherent on first listening , and it took me more than one hearing of the Naxos recording to grasp it . 
But I'm glad I persisted, because it came to make much more sense with those repeated hearings .


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Sid James said:


> ^^Which goes to say, or partially prove my point at least, that in many cases what non mainstream groups are doing here (eg. you say amateurs) is often much more interesting than the "mainstream" flagship groups which mainly cater for vanilla conservative tastes.


It was amateur only in the sense that the choir were non-professional singers (but that was the case with the Proms _Gothic _and the vast majority of choral concerts, at least in the UK). The orchestral players waived their fees, which was a remarkable tribute to their respect for, and confidence in, their conductor, John Curro. Key people were paid.

What is remarkable is that the Brisbane _Gothic _was the vision of one man, Gary Thorpe, of 4MBS, the local classical music station who started the project in 1980, after he had heard the prevous London performance. He was eventually joined by Veronica Fury (of Fury Productions) who pitched the idea of a documentary to ABC which they then commissioned.


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## Sequentia (Nov 23, 2011)

Frasier said:


> I find much of Mahler like this - listening to the last mv of his 6th recently. There IS thematic material obviously but it never seems to cohere. He is unable to build a climax from it... just gets louder and louder then stops and goes quiet, then builds up again...fff, then quiet again etc.


Total nonsense.


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