# Which Star Wars Prequel do you hate the most?



## Edward Elgar

Just for a bit of fun. I'm guessing most of you have seen these films given their fame and notoriety. My question to you is simple, which do you hate the most.

My vote goes to Attack of the Clones. The other two films were banal rubbish, but Attack of the Clones actually offended me due to the blasphemous "forbidden love" drivel.

This thread is more or less an outlet for anger towards the prequels. Therapy if you will. At least the music was good.


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## Aramis

Phantom Manace because I hate movies about kid heroes and all this mess with racing was annoying, except for the various scenes showing freaky creatures take participated in this race. But even them are rubbish compared to oldschool SW creatures like those blue elephants or crazy bat in Jabba's manor. Other two were quite fun to watch, I always laugh when think of scene with duel between Kenobi and Anakin when they suddenly stop fighting like they would arrange it before starting fight and together wave their swords behind their backs and then simultaneously get back to fighting.


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## Webernite

Attack of the Clones, because _nothing happens_.


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## Art Rock

I live in a galaxy far far away, where none of these three were ever made.


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## sospiro

All of them


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## Jacob Singer

Yeah, we really need an 'all of them' option in the poll.

While I could list multiple reasons why I disliked the prequel trilogy (and I could list a few things about it that I actually _did_ like), my main beef is with Lucas' portrayal of Anakin: He was NEVER likeable. Ok, maybe when he was a little kid he was alright, but as a teenager/adult in episodes II and III he was just an unbelievably annoying d-bag, well _before_ he fell to the Dark Side. This prevented the audience from truly feeling sorry for him in the end (when he was all crispy), thereby making it seem less like the tragedy it was supposed to be, and more of a "he-got-what-he-had-coming" moment. I mean, most people in the audience cheered when Obi-Wan cut off his legs, for obvious reasons. No one felt sorry for him in the slightest. They just wanted to see him get his *** kicked.

However, that's not the mythology about Anakin we've been led to believe per the original films… Anakin was supposed to be this great, selfless hero… loved and adored… _the quintessential Jedi_, which is what made his "death" (i.e. transformation into Vader) so terribly tragic. This is the kind of thing that makes for good storytelling.

But Lucas apparently forgot about all that, and instead gave us the Anakin whose deepest moment was essentially the following:

Ani: "What have I done?!"
Palps: "Join me, and you'll have ULTIMATE POWER! Haha haha hahahahaha!"
Ani: "Oh ok, sure. Whatever."


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## Nix

Phantom Menace. Cause at least with attack of the clones, I was expecting it to be bad. Revenge of the Sith was actually a pleasant surprise.


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## World Violist

Props for the timing of this thread, by the way, it's very appropriate. 

The second one, mostly because the first had Qui-Gon dying and the third one had a resolution, albeit a bad one (and, as someone else said, Obi-Wan cutting Anakin to pieces, which was really satisfying). The second one had nothing. No substance, no structure... the only good thing to be said about it is that Yoda goes absolutely crazy on what's-his-face, and he has a much better fight scene in the third anyway, so even that one's obsolete and worthless. Anakin kills all those sand people and I don't feel pity for him, I kind of go "what the heck" and move on with life.


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## mueske

Is this inspired by RedLetterMedia's reviews? 

If one is not familiar; watch and laugh... hard.






It's long, but so worth it. He also reviewed the other two.


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## Iveforgottenmyoldpassword

The Phantom Menace was just so terrible in every way imaginable (aside from the super sweet special effects that were exceptional for the 90s) that I can't even be upset about the other two.


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## david johnson

all of the jar-jar segments stink.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

I vote Attack of the Clones. In many ways Lucas was trying to go dark with it, but failed horribly. Not to mention the fact that it has the worst colour timing in history. The CGI was laughable even at those times.

Really, I have no problem with the prequels, I just can't stand the fact that the crap that made the prequels bad is seeping into the original good movies, via Georges revisions. That is why I won't buy the upcoming blu ray release. He needs to release the original theatrical versions in HD, or I won't give him another dollar. I'm tired of seeing CGI Jawas, rontos, jabba, and crap in my favorite movies. Don't even get me started on what he did to Return of the Jedi with the Song and dance number.


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## Sid James

Phantom Menace for me as well, although all three seem miles behind the original Star Wars films. I can hardly remember much of the prequels at all & people talking about them on this thread have reminded me...


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## Guest

I can't say Phantom Menace because I like Liam Neeson too much, so it's down to the other two. I want to say AotC because, like everyone has pointed out, nothing happens. No substance. But from my point of view, since it's the middle movie of a trilogy not much is supposed to happen (and yes, I know a lot happens in the middle movie of the original trilogy, tESB, but we all know movies just aren't like they used to be). So I went with RotS. Atrocious acting, terrible dialogue, and an utterly weak resolution. The latter is what ruined the movie most for me.


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## World Violist

The people who voted Return of the Sith (or all three... heck, anyone for that matter) should be very entertained by this: http://nooooooooooooooo.com/


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## Guest

I agree with Attack of the Clones.

Phantom Menace was an incredible let down for me, after all the built up anticipation - but I did think that at least Liam Neeson did a decent job with what he had to work with, and the final fight was great, especially with the music. The kid bugged, but then I can accept that getting a good child actor must be extremely difficult.

Revenge of the Sith at least had some good moments, and provided at least some, "oh, so that is how that happened" moments. The dialog was wretched, though, to the point of absurdity, "Annakin, you're breaking my heart!"

But Attack of the Clones was simply inexcusable. I don't think they could have cast a more lifeless actor to play Anakin if they tried - the kid in the first movie was better. Add to that the fact that Lucas couldn't write convincing dialog of two people professing their love to save his life, and the personal scenes between Anakin and Padme were painful to sit through. Regarding Kenobi's comments about Vader in the later movies - "He's more machine than man, twisted and evil" - I think you would be hard pressed to argue that the Vader of the later movies was more machine than Anakin in this one. That, and the ridiculous Yoda fight scene seemed, like so much of these prequels, to be more boasting of the special effects abilities of ILM than good movie writing - and incidentally, the impressiveness of these special effects was very quickly eclipsed by what Peter Jackson accomplished in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.

Finally, one last point to make. After Howard the Duck, I did not imagine that Lucas could conceive a more ridiculous and horrendous character for the silver screen - until he gave us JarJar Binks. That alone should have earned him the death penalty.


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## World Violist

DrMike said:


> That, and the ridiculous Yoda fight scene seemed, like so much of these prequels, to be more boasting of the special effects abilities of ILM than good movie writing - and incidentally, the impressiveness of these special effects was very quickly eclipsed by what Peter Jackson accomplished in the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.


Not to mention that the Lord of Rings was actually a great trilogy, with heart-felt acting, wonderful dialogue, believable relationships, etc. etc. etc...

As for the Yoda scene, I watched the Red Letter Media hour-and-a-half long review of the Attack of the Clones, and he nailed this scene. Yoda jumping off the walls with a little tiny lightsaber (and then throwing a lightsaber through some trooper during the sand battle thing) completely contradicts what he says some 20 years later about... oh, what was that again... size matters not, the force is your greatest ally, and the physical reality doesn't mean anything. And here you are throwing your lightsaber around and jumping off the walls because you're too... small... to be fighting regular-sized humans like Count Dooku. Size matters not. Right.

The window argument remains the most epic tearing apart of a scene I have ever encountered in my life. If you haven't watched the RLM review, you owe it to yourself to do so. Here's the beginning: 



And here's the window argument:


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## Guest

World Violist said:


> Not to mention that the Lord of Rings was actually a great trilogy, with heart-felt acting, wonderful dialogue, believable relationships, etc. etc. etc...
> 
> As for the Yoda scene, I watched the Red Letter Media hour-and-a-half long review of the Attack of the Clones, and he nailed this scene. Yoda jumping off the walls with a little tiny lightsaber (and then throwing a lightsaber through some trooper during the sand battle thing) completely contradicts what he says some 20 years later about... oh, what was that again... size matters not, the force is your greatest ally, and the physical reality doesn't mean anything. And here you are throwing your lightsaber around and jumping off the walls because you're too... small... to be fighting regular-sized humans like Count Dooku. Size matters not. Right.
> 
> The window argument remains the most epic tearing apart of a scene I have ever encountered in my life. If you haven't watched the RLM review, you owe it to yourself to do so. Here's the beginning:
> 
> 
> 
> And here's the window argument:


Holy crap, I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants! On the one hand, I question wasting that much time to discuss such an obviously bad film - and then considered how much I have written in this thread about such an obviously bad film. So then I just kept watching!:lol:


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## World Violist

DrMike said:


> Holy crap, I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants! On the one hand, I question wasting that much time to discuss such an obviously bad film - and then considered how much I have written in this thread about such an obviously bad film. So then I just kept watching!:lol:


On the other hand, the review is better than the movie.


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## emiellucifuge

Oh my god they are absolutely hilarious! :lol:


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## mueske

Nice how I posted those and got ignored... --'


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## emiellucifuge

I guess its because you didnt embed the videos 

Oh well I give you equal credit


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## SalieriIsInnocent

Yeah, I love all of his reviews, mostly for the humor. He is actually a good filmmaker if you watch some of his films.


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## mueske

emiellucifuge said:


> I guess its because you didnt embed the videos
> 
> Oh well I give you equal credit


curses! But thanks.


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## World Violist

mueske said:


> Nice how I posted those and got ignored... --'


Sorry... if it makes you feel any better your post is what got me into those reviews. I just felt the Attack of the Clones review is better than the Phantom Menace one, so I couldn't help posting it.


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## Norse

I must have watched the first two RedLetterMedia 'reviews' all the way through at least twice. Good stuff. I just found out the third one is out, but not on youtube (yet) http://www.redlettermedia.com/sith.html

To me (and to most people, I think) the last one was clearly the best. I remember leaving the theater and thinking "Hey, that was actually kinda cool". Although, as has been pointed out, it definitely has its share of retarded stuff, too. I guess I just liked the darker tone of it.

I also liked the second one better than the first one. Sure, the forced and laughable romance was painful, but apart from that, I thought it was more entertaining than the 'cutesy' Ep1.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

It isn't the obvious things like Jar Jar and wooden acting that make the movies bad. It's little things like:










Watch that while playing yakety sax and you'll die.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

_Attack of the Clones_. Nothing much really happened by way of story that served to bridge _Phantom_ and _Revenge of the Sith_. It could have been told in 15 minutes.


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## mueske

World Violist said:


> Sorry... if it makes you feel any better your post is what got me into those reviews. I just felt the Attack of the Clones review is better than the Phantom Menace one, so I couldn't help posting it.


Haha, don't worry about it, I was just being dramatic.  And I much prefer the phantom menace one. "What is wrong with your faaace!?" and his constant stuttering with the word protagonist. I loved it when I first saw it, and still do.


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## World Violist

mueske said:


> Haha, don't worry about it, I was just being dramatic.  And I much prefer the phantom menace one. "What is wrong with your faaace!?" and his constant stuttering with the word protagonist. I loved it when I first saw it, and still do.


Oh great, now this thread is going to turn into a "Which RLM Star Wars prequel review do you like the most?" thread.


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## Listener

I love those Red Letter Media reviews.

Revenge of the Sith is the worst. I think those who say it is better than Return of the Jedi are in denial.


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## Rob

I voted "Attack of the Clones", but I honestly have a hard time watching all three of them. "Revenge of the Sith" is the best one by far, but still... it's miles away from the first trilogy.

The scores are fantastic most of the time, though.


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## World Violist

Listener said:


> I love those Red Letter Media reviews.
> 
> Revenge of the Sith is the worst. I think those who say it is better than Return of the Jedi are in denial.


There are people who say Revenge of the Sith is better than Return of the Jedi? Wow.


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## Edward Elgar

Rob said:


> The scores are fantastic most of the time, though.


The only thing that makes those films watchable. By the way, nice avatar!


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## Rob

Edward Elgar said:


> The only thing that makes those films watchable. By the way, nice avatar!


Well, thank you! One of my favourite movies, and probably my all-time favourite score.


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## Moraviac

World Violist said:


> There are people who say Revenge of the Sith is better than Return of the Jedi? Wow.


Yes there are, me being one of them. 

I don't like Phantom Menace at all. Attack Of The Clones was an improvement. I thought the Revenge of the Sith is very good. Great to see the psychological battle Anakin was in. Ian McDiarmid was in peak form. SW 3 even beats Return Of The Jedi IMHO. :tiphat:


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## Edward Elgar

Moraviac said:


> Yes there are, me being one of them.
> 
> I don't like Phantom Menace at all. Attack Of The Clones was an improvement. I thought the Revenge of the Sith is very good. Great to see the psychological battle Anakin was in. Ian McDiarmid was in peak form. SW 3 even beats Return Of The Jedi IMHO. :tiphat:


Twisted by the dark side, young Moraviac has become. Gone, his judgement of artistic merit is.

How on earth is Sith better than Jedi? The whole film is just one big special effect. The ending is a giant kick in the balls. All the characters are stupid. I could go on.


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## Moraviac

Edward Elgar said:


> Twisted by the dark side, young Moraviac has become. Gone, his judgement of artistic merit is.
> 
> How on earth is Sith better than Jedi? The whole film is just one big special effect. The ending is a giant kick in the balls. All the characters are stupid. I could go on.


:lol: Yes, or maybe I'm better for protocol functions and translating all kinds of galactic languages.

Of course it's all a matter of taste, but I like the psychological battle Anakin is in, the way he is lured towards the dark side by the Sith Lord. Against better judgment. Not that the Anakin actor is such a tremendous player, but the storyline is great. I like the playing of the Sith Lord, being sort of a father figure sometimes, but he unravels himself as an evil man. like especially the moment when he shouts out "Unlimited Power". Brilliant! I agree that the end is an anti-climax. They had to move towards part 4.

Maybe it has to do with my job. I'm constantly surrounded by people who all mean well, but can set out conspiracies behind your back. 

Jedi is my absolute nr. 2 BTW. I saw it last week again and I was again impressed by it.


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## Listener

A few months ago I watched all the Star Wars prequels again to see if they were as bad as I remembered. I was wrong, they weren't as bad, they were much worse.

What's most disappointing about them is that there's no reason for these films to be so bad. They had all the money they needed, all the visual effects, all the actors, all the time. Unfortunately they also had Lucas' pride and hubris, which were kept in check with the original films.


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## Xaltotun

Phantom Menace: failed attempt at comedy
Attack of the Clones: failed attempt at romance
Revenge of the Sith: failed attempt at plot

It really depends on which of these failed attempts irks you the most


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## Edward Elgar

Xaltotun said:


> Phantom Menace: failed attempt at comedy
> Attack of the Clones: failed attempt at romance
> Revenge of the Sith: failed attempt at plot
> 
> It really depends on which of these failed attempts irks you the most


Star Wars Prequels = Failed attempt at film-making!

The failed romance irks me the most. Anakin tells Padme he killed women and children and wiped out an entire community. How does she react? "To be human is to be angry." What is it about Anakin she loves?!


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## Moraviac

Edward Elgar said:


> Star Wars Prequels = Failed attempt at film-making!
> 
> The failed romance irks me the most. Anakin tells Padme he killed women and children and wiped out an entire community. How does she react? "To be human is to be angry." What is it about Anakin she loves?!


His good looks, I guess. 

Which he lost also :lol:


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## kmisho

I'm going to go with the first one, because my expectations were high. After that one, I assumed all the rest would suck and they did so it wasn't nearly as painful. After the Phantom Menace, I didn't go out to another movie for 4 years. The movie was so painful it made me not like going to movies at all!

Next time, I went to see Gods and Generals. Big mistake! Here again, Gettysburg was great so my expectation was high. And again I did not go out to see a movie for years, until Star Trek 2009. Finally a movie that wasn't totally awful, if rather shallow.

Then I went to see Toy Story 3 with my wife and kid. That was the best of all of them by far and it was just a kid's movie. How pathetic.


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## World Violist

kmisho said:


> Then I went to see Toy Story 3 with my wife and kid. That was the best of all of them by far and it was just a kid's movie. How pathetic.


You've got to hand it to Pixar though; they're one of like 2-3 Western movie studios making anything worth watching, and even so Pixar's at the top for consistency.


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## Edward Elgar

Moraviac said:


> His good looks, I guess.
> 
> Which he lost also :lol:


So you can bed Natalie Portman even if you've committed genocide. You just have to look like a guy out of a fashion magazine!


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## Moraviac

Edward Elgar said:


> So you can bed Natalie Portman even if you've committed genocide. You just have to look like a guy out of a fashion magazine!


If you put it that way... yeah, that's about it, I think. :lol:


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## Il Seraglio

The Phantom Menace by far. The only thing that makes it borderline watchable is Liam Neeson. Clones sucked too, but it had Christopher Lee as a villain, more screen time for Mace Windu and a reasonably fun final battle scene so it's not _as_ bad.

Revenge of the Sith gets too much hate if you ask me. I know lead performances are still poor and the dialogue hammy at times, but it's entertaining pretty much all the way through and I don't think I could even pay any movie in the original trilogy that sort of compliment. Plus Ian McDirmid is wonderful as Senator Palpatine (even when he overacts) and the movie in general recaptures the charm of old epics like the Fall of the Roman Empire which Lucas is known to be a big fan of.


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## Ravellian

On topic, I just watched all of these again recently. They never fail to make me howl with laughter most indubitably (redlettermedia reviews):

The Phantom Menace





Attack of the Clones





Revenge of the Sith
http://redlettermedia.com/ (see the bottom of the page)


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## Il Seraglio

I'm enjoying those, thanks. The reviewer sounds like he took too much valium.


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## TresPicos

There's probably something wrong with me, but I actually enjoyed those three prequels, at least somewhat. 

Of course, I was disappointed that The Phantom Menace was not at all at par with episodes 4-6, and of course I hated young Anakin and Jar-Jar like everybody else, but apart from that I had a pretty good time watching it. And the two others. 

Hilarious Youtube reviews, by the way. At the time, I only noticed maybe 5% of all those plot holes. But if that makes my movie experience a better one, then I guess I'm fine with that.


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## Sieglinde

TMP. At least the other two had significantly less of Jar-Jar. Although it had Qui-Gon who's really lovable...


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## Norse

Sieglinde said:


> TMP. At least the other two had significantly less of Jar-Jar. Although it had Qui-Gon who's really lovable...


The Mantom Phenace?  Sorry, I just had to..


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## Edward Elgar

Norse said:


> The Mantom Phenace?  Sorry, I just had to..


It should have been called that!


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## nickgray

Meesa hates the first one the most. But seriously though, I think they're more or less equally ****** - bad acting, ridiculous plot holes, characters doing all sorts of absurd things, tons of unexplained stuff, etc., etc.


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## TRendfrey

The one that I hate most? Damn. I guess that's got to be the second one. You can basically skip it and it won't make a difference in the plot, all it is, is constant "forbidden romance" sub plots and pointless other dialoge.

The first one sucked up until the epic battle scene with Darth Maul. That was pretty awesome. The rest sucked (damn you jar jar)

Three had a good premise. Fall of an empire, tragic hero, all of it. It was just horribly executed, but the end with Palpatine's speech was FREAKING AWESOME!!!


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## SalieriIsInnocent

In the end the worst film in the original trilogy (Return of the Jedi), dominates any film in the prequel trilogy.


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## regressivetransphobe

They were all so bad. Choosing a most hated prequel is like choosing a favorite child.

I guess I'll go with the last one, because it has this gem of moral ambiguity and subtle characterization:
"From my perspective, the JEDI are evil!" - Anakin


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## Manxfeeder

Art Rock said:


> I live in a galaxy far far away, where none of these three were ever made.


Well said.


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## hocket

I happen to really like the Prequels. I had some real issues with AotC when it came out, but in retrospect it's much better than I gave it credit for (and looks amazing on DVD). With RotS taken into account you can see that Christensen's performance was much better than it initially appeared. You can see what Lucas wanted from him and that his overall performance was much better paced and more nuanced than he's been given credit for.

Anyway, I'd vote none of them. Sure the films have their weaknesses, over reliance on CGI, some poor scripting, Jar Jar Binks and some sloppy editing (particularly in TPM), and the actors never gelled to have the kind of chemistry they did in the original trilogy -but overall they are thoroughly enjoyable films that add enormously to the Star Wars Universe. I actually watch them far more often than the OT.


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## kv466

First off, Star Wars and hate don't belong in the same sentence...it was the same strange, hobbit-haired man's vision anyway. Secondly, if you weren't even alive by the time The Empire Strikes Back was at the theaters then you shouldn't even comment.


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## Crudblud

I saw the Phantom Menace when it first came out and thought "well, that's quite enough of that." I have absolutely no interest in seeing the other two.


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## Arsakes

The one with the Anakin's most EMO!: II


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## drpraetorus

Questions for Lucas
1 What on earth made you think that kid could act?
2 What on earth made you think that your any good a writing dialogue?
3 Why do the Gungans act so stupid and yet have a very technically advanced society?
4. Is Naboo a dead planet? You sent Qui Gon et al. through the planets core but there was no sign of a molten ball of iron. 
5. Was it your intent that Jarjar be funny? He's not.
6. Is Anakin Jesus or was his mother just pulling our leg about him being a surprise with no father?
7 Where you desperate for an idea when you invented the midichlorians? 
8. If the force is just a powerfield produced by life, how can it have a will for the midi-whozits to tell us?
9. Why did you mispronounce Coruscant?
10. What practical purpose do those energy baffles serve in the fight with Darth Maul? 
11. If these people aree so advabced that they have faster than light travel, why have the not invented guard rails?
12. Let me get this straight, Darth Maul is cut in half and falls down a seemingly bottomless pit and survives. Qui Gon is run through with a light saber and dies. Maybe Qui Gon is just too wimpy to be a real jedi.
13. The trade federation space stations have such good shields that they are impregnable, yet Anakin flys right in?
14. If the Republic is such a democratic institution, why is there still royalty who still rule? 
15. Why does Anakin grow older but Padme does not?
16 Anakin is a mass murderer, a child killer, a sadistic torturer etc. YET, one good act and he is all of a sudden a good person?
17 Anakin seems to be breathing just fine while on the operating table yet once in his suite he cannot survive without it. 
18. Would you trust a medical droid that can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl?
19. Why did 3po need to have a mind wipe but not R2D2? 
20.If Qui Gon found a way back from the where ever he went, does that mean he is the first ghost in galactic history?
21. Would it not have been more interesting to have seen Qui Gon back from the dead rather than to just hear about it?
22. When did the Empire change from New Zealand clones to real people? 
23. Are accents genetic so that they are tranfered in cloning like eye color?
24. What exactly does all that white armor protect against?
25. Particle weapons fire at the speed of light, the only bullets we can see are tracers, how can we actually see blaster shots?


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## Ramako

Attack of the clones was one of the worst films I have ever seen.

Phantom Menace was just not great

By Revenge of the Sith it was too little too late

And everyone knew it was going to be impossible to please with these anyway.


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## dionisio

All prequels should never se the light of day.

I can see once in a while the Phantom, but the rest...


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## SuperTonic

I have recently started watching these movies again with my son, who just turned 7 this past summer. I got a lot of enjoyment from the original movies when I was his age so I wanted to share that with him. So far we've seen episodes 1 and 2. I went back and forth on whether or not I should introduce the movies to him in the order they were released or in episode order. I finally decided on episode order mainly because doing it the other way, we would end with the 3rd episode which was by far the darkest and most gloomy of the 6 movies. I'd rather have the story end for him on a positive note with Return of the Jedi. Anyway, when I was a kid I didn't really follow the plot of the original series too closely other than to keep track of who was good and bad, and I didn't really expect him to at this age either. He just likes the action and special effects. Honestly we could probably watch them in any order and it wouldn't affect his enjoyment too much.

When I saw the prequels in the theater when they originally came out I was disappointed. I'm not sure if it would have been possible to meet my expectations after waiting so long for them though. After watching it again with my son recently, I still found TPM pretty annoying, although I do see how Lucas might have been trying to hook a new young audience, like my son, as well as attempting to satisfying fans of the original movies. I think my son really liked that the main character was a boy about his own age. That was probably a good hook to get him into the movies. 
While watching AOTC, I tried to put myself in my son's place and see it through his eyes, and I actually did kind of enjoy it in that context. The fight scene with all of the Jedis with drawn light sabers was visually stunning. And the fight scene between Yoda and Duku was pretty cool too (I've always been a sucker for special effects). My son jumped out of his chair and started cheering for Yoda at that point, and I admit I got a little thrill too, if for nothing else than for seeing my son get such enjoyment from it.
I do wish Lucas had downplayed the political part of the story somewhat. That is probably my biggest complaint about the prequels. There were long scenes where nothing interesting happened other than political machinations. That's not really what I want to see in a Star Wars movie, and the original movies weren't like that at all. The political aspect of the story was almost an afterthought in those movies.

We will be watching Revenge of the Sith this weekend. It will be interesting to see if my son's insterest will be sustained through the longest and most gloomy movie of the series.


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## SuperTonic

drpraetorus said:


> Questions for Lucas
> 1 What on earth made you think that kid could act?
> 2 What on earth made you think that your any good a writing dialogue?
> 3 Why do the Gungans act so stupid and yet have a very technically advanced society?
> 4. Is Naboo a dead planet? You sent Qui Gon et al. through the planets core but there was no sign of a molten ball of iron.
> 5. Was it your intent that Jarjar be funny? He's not.
> 6. Is Anakin Jesus or was his mother just pulling our leg about him being a surprise with no father?
> 7 Where you desperate for an idea when you invented the midichlorians?
> 8. If the force is just a powerfield produced by life, how can it have a will for the midi-whozits to tell us?
> 9. Why did you mispronounce Coruscant?
> 10. What practical purpose do those energy baffles serve in the fight with Darth Maul?
> 11. If these people aree so advabced that they have faster than light travel, why have the not invented guard rails?
> 12. Let me get this straight, Darth Maul is cut in half and falls down a seemingly bottomless pit and survives. Qui Gon is run through with a light saber and dies. Maybe Qui Gon is just too wimpy to be a real jedi.
> 13. The trade federation space stations have such good shields that they are impregnable, yet Anakin flys right in?
> 14. If the Republic is such a democratic institution, why is there still royalty who still rule?
> 15. Why does Anakin grow older but Padme does not?
> 16 Anakin is a mass murderer, a child killer, a sadistic torturer etc. YET, one good act and he is all of a sudden a good person?
> 17 Anakin seems to be breathing just fine while on the operating table yet once in his suite he cannot survive without it.
> 18. Would you trust a medical droid that can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl?
> 19. Why did 3po need to have a mind wipe but not R2D2?
> 20.If Qui Gon found a way back from the where ever he went, does that mean he is the first ghost in galactic history?
> 21. Would it not have been more interesting to have seen Qui Gon back from the dead rather than to just hear about it?
> 22. When did the Empire change from New Zealand clones to real people?
> 23. Are accents genetic so that they are tranfered in cloning like eye color?
> 24. What exactly does all that white armor protect against?
> 25. Particle weapons fire at the speed of light, the only bullets we can see are tracers, how can we actually see blaster shots?


You make some good points here; some that I wondered about as well. But to be fair, there aren't too many movies these days that would stand up to that kind of scrutiny. At some point, a suspension of disbelief has to occur for the sake of entertainment.


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## clavichorder

drpraetorus said:


> 12. Let me get this straight, Darth Maul is cut in half and falls down a seemingly bottomless pit and survives. Qui Gon is run through with a light saber and dies. Maybe Qui Gon is just too wimpy to be a real jedi.


Darth Maul survives? I thought that killed him...


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## clavichorder

drpraetorus said:


> questions for lucas
> 1 what on earth made you think that kid could act?
> 2 what on earth made you think that your any good a writing dialogue?
> 3 why do the gungans act so stupid and yet have a very technically advanced society?
> 4. Is naboo a dead planet? You sent qui gon et al. Through the planets core but there was no sign of a molten ball of iron.
> 5. Was it your intent that jarjar be funny? He's not.
> 6. Is anakin jesus or was his mother just pulling our leg about him being a surprise with no father?
> 7 where you desperate for an idea when you invented the midichlorians?
> 8. If the force is just a powerfield produced by life, how can it have a will for the midi-whozits to tell us?
> 9. Why did you mispronounce coruscant?
> 10. What practical purpose do those energy baffles serve in the fight with darth maul?
> 11. If these people aree so advabced that they have faster than light travel, why have the not invented guard rails?
> 12. Let me get this straight, darth maul is cut in half and falls down a seemingly bottomless pit and survives. Qui gon is run through with a light saber and dies. Maybe qui gon is just too wimpy to be a real jedi.
> 13. The trade federation space stations have such good shields that they are impregnable, yet anakin flys right in?
> 14. If the republic is such a democratic institution, why is there still royalty who still rule?
> 15. Why does anakin grow older but padme does not?
> 16 anakin is a mass murderer, a child killer, a sadistic torturer etc. Yet, one good act and he is all of a sudden a good person?
> 17 anakin seems to be breathing just fine while on the operating table yet once in his suite he cannot survive without it.
> 18. Would you trust a medical droid that can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl?
> 19. Why did 3po need to have a mind wipe but not r2d2?
> 20.if qui gon found a way back from the where ever he went, does that mean he is the first ghost in galactic history?
> 21. Would it not have been more interesting to have seen qui gon back from the dead rather than to just hear about it?
> 22. When did the empire change from new zealand clones to real people?
> 23. Are accents genetic so that they are tranfered in cloning like eye color?
> 24. What exactly does all that white armor protect against?
> 25. Particle weapons fire at the speed of light, the only bullets we can see are tracers, how can we actually see blaster shots?


you underestimate the power of the force.


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## Klavierspieler

drpraetorus said:


> 24. What exactly does all that white armor protect against?


This is my favorite. I especially enjoy watching Ewok arrows pierce right through with no problems. :lol:


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## Ramako

I just posted this on my Fb...


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## clavichorder

^^^^^
I just did the same, after you of course.


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## drpraetorus

Yeah, he shows up in the Cartoon clone wars. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Maul This has the whole, entrancing, story.


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## Carpenoctem

The Phantom Menace sucked so hard.

The only good thing is the lightsaber fight with Darth Maul. That movies had so much potential, Lucas should have made a darker movie, he should have shown the suffer from the people from Naboo. 

For God's sake, their city was occupied by the Trade Federation and the only thing we see is stupid and uninteresting Queen Amidala and her outfits. Yuck.

Also don't get me started on Jar Jar Binks.

Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith made me uncomfortable with all those cheesy scenes between Anakin and Padme.
Again, what was Lucas thinking? The only good thing about the third movie is the darker atmosphere.

My favorite Star Wars movie is The Empire Strikes Back because I didn't like the Ewoks in Return of The Jedi.

Overall, this is the order in which I liked them: 5,6,4,3,2,1. With 1 being the absolute crap.


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## Arsakes

Carpenoctem said:


> The Phantom Menace sucked so hard.
> 
> The only good thing is the lightsaber fight with Darth Maul. That movies had so much potential, Lucas should have made a darker movie, he should have shown the suffer from the people from Naboo.
> 
> For God's sake, their city was occupied by the Trade Federation and the only thing we see is stupid and uninteresting Queen Amidala and her outfits. Yuck.
> 
> Also don't get me started on Jar Jar Binks.
> 
> Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith made me uncomfortable with all those cheesy scenes between Anakin and Padme.
> Again, what was Lucas thinking? The only good thing about the third movie is the darker atmosphere.
> 
> My favorite Star Wars movie is The Empire Strikes Back because I didn't like the Ewoks in Return of The Jedi.
> 
> Overall, this is the order in which I liked them: 5,6,4,3,2,1. With 1 being the absolute crap.


I agree with most of what you said. My order of likeness is: 5,6,4,3,1,2
When I watched Episode I, I was 12 years old, so I liked it!


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## drpraetorus

For as much guff as the prequals have taken and deserved, I can still remember the feeling I had when I saw "New Hope" or Star Wars as it was once known. It was the first release. I went to one of the old movie palaces that had a huge screen and actuall ushers. The place was packed so I was down front. The music was not impressive, it sounded like old Korngold. The introduction word crawl was alright. Then came the first ship That was pretty cool. Then came Vaders ship. That was jaw dropping. The size was amazing and Lucas made you feel how big it was. CGI has made big strides since then but that was an impressive sight.


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## clavichorder

Carpenoctem said:


> The only good thing is the lightsaber fight with Darth Maul. That movies had so much potential, Lucas should have made a *darker movie*, he should have shown the suffer from the people from Naboo.


No way! Everything these days is _darker_ and its absurd. I don't know what's wrong with folks these days.


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## Cnote11

I want to live in Naboo.

I should say "on", I suppose.


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## clavichorder

Naboo would be cool, or on a moisture farm on Tatooine, or maybe in some high class penthouse on Coruscant, or else in a freighter like the Millennium Falcon as a mobile home.


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## drpraetorus

I want the salvage rights for the "forrest moon of Endor"


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## hocket

Cnote11 said:


> I want to live in Naboo.
> 
> I should say "on", I suppose.


Unless you are a Gungan.


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## Carpenoctem

clavichorder said:


> No way! Everything these days is _darker_ and its absurd. I don't know what's wrong with folks these days.


Haha, and what exactly is darker and why would it be absurd? You'd rather watch Amidala's wardrobe and Jar Jar Binks than the life and struggle of occupied Naboo? Try watching Phantom Menace again and then please tell me why is it absurd.


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## clavichorder

Carpenoctem said:


> Haha, and what exactly is darker and why would it be absurd? You'd rather watch Amidala's wardrobe and Jar Jar Binks than the life and struggle of occupied Naboo? Try watching Phantom Menace again and then please tell me why is it absurd.


Or they could try making a legitimately good movie like the original.


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## hocket

Carpenoctem said:


> Haha, and what exactly is darker and why would it be absurd? You'd rather watch Amidala's wardrobe and Jar Jar Binks than the life and struggle of occupied Naboo? Try watching Phantom Menace again and then please tell me why is it absurd.


Because it wouldn't have been Star Wars. All the griping about those movies you hear but when you ask people what it they think it should have been like the results are always laughable. They invariably harp on about how 'boring' all the political stuff was (actually its fundamental and absolutely crucial to Star Wars). These people seem to have wanted some non stop action movie (maybe they should've hired Schwarzenegger to play Qui Gon Jinn!) -wildly inappropriate. These guys generally wanted 2 and a half movies of Darth Vader running around hunting and killing Jedi -the mind boggles. Another trend I've come across is people who wanted some sort of gritty war movie -Black Hawk Down or Apocalypse Now in space. Have you completely lost touch with reality? Star Wars with an 18 Rating -sure, that's gonna happen. Again it would be totally wrong and lose the essence of what Star Wars is all about.

In that list drpraetorus made there are one or two justified criticisms but its mostly notable for being chock full of misconceptions and misunderstandings. I was particularly shocked to see that old whinge about Anakin being a messiah stand in -did you completely miss the Opera House scene?


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## clavichorder

Crudblud said:


> I saw the Phantom Menace when it first came out and thought "well, that's quite enough of that." I have absolutely no interest in seeing the other two.


Wait, you were old enough when it came out to not enjoy it? I actually quite enjoyed it when I watched it as a *1st grader*.

I think I still would actually. I've never minded it story-wise, and have enjoyed the fantasy star wars elements of it quite a lot.


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## drpraetorus

So what would I have wanted? 1st, and I think foremost, a kid who could actually act rather than work so hard at being cute and bland. How about a little more clarity on what the purpose for the blocade was, what exactly is the trade federation, what did Sidious expect to achieve? Did you ever see King Lear or Richard the Third? Those are rather complcated plots but the audience knows what is up and what each character is trying to achieve. Shakespear let us in on the plot and in a sence, makes the audience co-conspiritors. Why not Lucas?

It was inevitable that the new three would be compared to the old three. In that comparison, #1 is at a distinct disadvantage. It is in a word, juvenile. In all the whiz-bangery of the special effects, Lucas lost the thrust of the story and character exposition. We did not really care that much for the characters and were not that emotionaly involved with them. In 4,5,6 we met charaters we liked and cared about. In 1,2,3 that doesn't really happen until #2. 

Actually, when you really look at it, #1 is not really necessary to the major storyline. The whole thing could have been merged with #2 (with a bit of a re-write) and have the story move along faster. Remember Polonius "Brevety is the soul of wit". That would have solved the problem of Anakin getting older and Padme not. I think that Lucas was trying more for symmetry than efficient storytelling.

Internal consistency would be nice. The bit about Anakin flying through the chields when the other couldn't is just the most glarring example. 

While watching 1,2,3, one gets the feeling that Lucas was more concerned with building the backstory and reconciling susposed contradictions in 4.5.6 than with the mythic background that informed 4.5.6. A great deal was made about Lucas using the writings of Joseph Campbell to ground his story (4.5.6) is myths that are at the root of much of world culture. That's why there are parallels with greek myths and even with The Ring. Luke is Jason/Siegfried/Cuchulain. Even his theme sounds a great deal like Siegfrieds horn call. For me, that mythic resonance is lacking in #1 and only lurking in the shadows in 2 and 3. Which mythic hero would Anakin be analogous to? He certainly has the makings of a tragic, flawed hero that the greeks loved so much and we can see that tragic flaw in his pride. But as it works itself out we do not get that same sense of grand tragedy that we get with Oedipus or Jason or King Lear. And there's the rub.

I don't think that Lucas is a good enough writter to do justice to his vision in 1.2.3. The story, with a few tweaks is not irredeemable. A different child actor could be found. They're a dime a dozen in Hollywood. A tallented writer, working under Lucas's supervision could have taken the clunky language and midicloreans and turned it into something far more than it became. A co-writer could have made Jar-jar (if he was kept) somewhat less annoying. The humor would have been less forced. No more would we have "That's wizard Annie" or "Now THAT'S pod racing" and any number of other groaners. 

Well, that's a start. Maybe, with all the tinkering he does with his movies, Lucas will read this and improve on #1. But I get a part of the toy concession.


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## TrazomGangflow

I think the Revenge of the Sith was well made but the other two weren't. The dialogue from attack of the Clone Wars was horrendous. The phantom Menace just doesn't seem to fit with the others. They all have good special effects, though.


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## Carpenoctem

Is is true that Lucas intended to make 9 Star Wars movies? I'm glad he stopped at 6 though.


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## hocket

drpraetorus said:


> So what would I have wanted? 1st, and I think foremost, a kid who could actually act rather than work so hard at being cute and bland.


Child actors are always hazardous and screen history is littered with disasters -the whole 'dime a dozen notion is utterly mistaken. Lucas was looking for a very specific type. He isn't just cute and bland. On the one hand he's well intentioned, courageous, and spirited, but on the other he's ambitious and a bit too much of a go-getter. The seeds of Anakin's downfall are always present and its a significant reason why it's difficult to sympathise with the character. The same traits are of course in Luke who was never just the fair haired boy.



> How about a little more clarity on what the purpose for the blocade was, what exactly is the trade federation, what did Sidious expect to achieve? Did you ever see King Lear or Richard the Third? Those are rather complcated plots but the audience knows what is up and what each character is trying to achieve. Shakespear let us in on the plot and in a sence, makes the audience co-conspiritors. Why not Lucas?


That's a plot choice. It's an absurd criticism. Are you suggesting that Agatha Christie novels would be improved if they revealed at the start who the killer is, and explained in detail how and why they were going to go about executing their diabolical schemes? Should The Usual Suspects have told us who Kaiser Soze was from the start? Perhaps Dostoevsky should have spelt out from the start what Stavrogin was all about in Devils? The thing is, the overwhelming majority of the audience already knew what Palpatine was trying to achieve ultimately and where he'd end up -the interest was in how he got there so giving the game away right off the bat would've been a pretty dumb move. As for the Trade Federation and the taxation of trade routes -well they want to trade and Naboo wants to tax them for travelling through their sovereign space and the Federation want to either reduce this or eliminate it entirely. How much more do you really want to know without it genuinely becoming boring?



> It was inevitable that the new three would be compared to the old three. In that comparison, #1 is at a distinct disadvantage. It is in a word, juvenile. In all the whiz-bangery of the special effects, Lucas lost the thrust of the story and character exposition. We did not really care that much for the characters and were not that emotionaly involved with them. In 4,5,6 we met charaters we liked and cared about. In 1,2,3 that doesn't really happen until #2.


Really? I though Qui Gon made a great lead and was very sympathetic. Obi Wan and Padme were also fairly sympathetic characters, although relatively thinly drawn in this film, but of course every one already knew Obi Wan and had strong emotional ties to the character. The kid was problematic and Jar Jar plain irritating. Sure the actors and character chemistry was more successful in the original trilogy, but you always can't expect to get lucky the way they did there and I suspect Harrison Ford was the magic ingredient that really made that group work together.



> Actually, when you really look at it, #1 is not really necessary to the major storyline. The whole thing could have been merged with #2 (with a bit of a re-write) and have the story move along faster.


I just plain disagree. I could go on for ages about that.



> Remember Polonius "Brevety is the soul of wit".


Huh? You seem to be very keen on applying one sided dogmas to writing. Polonius' comment is supposed to be ironic because he's such a verbose windbag btw. In any event, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Leaving aside the fact that I disagree with your notion that Episode 1 is superfluous, I remember watching a documentary about the making of John Ford's _My Darling Clementine_ and one of the team commenting with pride how they'd broken every rule you're taught in film school -in particular he singled out the idea that every scene should advance the plot.



> That would have solved the problem of Anakin getting older and Padme not. I think that Lucas was trying more for symmetry than efficient storytelling.


In TPM Padme's supposed to be in her mid teens which she looks right for then. By ROTS she's in her mid-late 20s, which she can comfortably pass for in those films. What's the problem? You seem to just be complaining for no evident reason.



> Internal consistency would be nice. The bit about Anakin flying through the chields when the other couldn't is just the most glarring example.


Actually there's no indication that the others tried to fly through the shields. They couldn't shoot through them. You should conclude that either the shields in question only protect from energy weapons but not kamikaze pilots or that there's a gap in the shields by the docking bay so that their own ships can take off and land. In the latter case that'd presumably be very well defended so anyone'd be foolhardy to try and attack there and likely be killed rapidly. In any event the whole point was that Anakin was freakishly lucky and was presumably unconsciously guided by the Force to fulfill his destiny.



> While watching 1,2,3, one gets the feeling that Lucas was more concerned with building the backstory and reconciling susposed contradictions in 4.5.6 than with the mythic background that informed 4.5.6. A great deal was made about Lucas using the writings of Joseph Campbell to ground his story (4.5.6) is myths that are at the root of much of world culture. That's why there are parallels with greek myths and even with The Ring. Luke is Jason/Siegfried/Cuchulain. Even his theme sounds a great deal like Siegfrieds horn call. For me, that mythic resonance is lacking in #1 and only lurking in the shadows in 2 and 3. Which mythic hero would Anakin be analogous to? He certainly has the makings of a tragic, flawed hero that the greeks loved so much and we can see that tragic flaw in his pride. But as it works itself out we do not get that same sense of grand tragedy that we get with Oedipus or Jason or King Lear. And there's the rub.


Have you actually read _A Hero with a Thousand Faces_? There are two models it outlines. The successful hero as seen in Luke and the flawed tragic hero who ultimately falls/fails (although in Arthur's, like Anikin's, he is actually redeemed). The mentor figure appears in a number of guises, as do father figures, the thresholds of love and battle have a prominent role and hell is harrowed several times, whether in the Arena on Geonosis or most graphically on Mustafar. In what sense is there no grand tragedy? Anakin loses everything as a result of his personal failings and misdeeds and gains the earth. He becomes powerful but mired in corruption and his destiny cursed just like Jason, Siegfried, Arthur, and of course Uther. In one way or another he becomes Cain, David, Samson, Launcelot, Orpheus, Lot, Theseus, Achilles and of course Oedipus.



> I don't think that Lucas is a good enough writter to do justice to his vision in 1.2.3. The story, with a few tweaks is not irredeemable. A different child actor could be found. They're a dime a dozen in Hollywood. A tallented writer, working under Lucas's supervision could have taken the clunky language and midicloreans and turned it into something far more than it became. A co-writer could have made Jar-jar (if he was kept) somewhat less annoying. The humor would have been less forced. No more would we have "That's wizard Annie" or "Now THAT'S pod racing" and any number of other groaners.


Midichlorians would've seemed much more clever when Lucas first dreamed them up in the mid-late 70s, but the unusual properties of mitochondria were far more a part of the general public consciousness by the late 90s -as a result their use was a little bald. Other than that they elegantly served the twin purpose of being a handy measure by which to indicate that little Ani is a bit special and by which to introduce the notion of symbiosis as the fundamental benevolent facet of the Force and indeed of life and something crucial to the mythology of the series.

The first trilogy had clunky lines too (see Harrison Ford's legendary comments). Nonetheless the scripts do their job. There are some poor moments it's true (I see nothing wrong with the lines you cite, but ''you say that biggest problem in this universe is that nobody helps each other'' sounded like it was segueing into an episode of The Waltons...), but overall the issues were grossly exaggerated (kids do say 'yipee!' and sports commentators are notorious for saying stupid things) by an audience that seemed desperate to find fault when they didn't get nine hours of Darth Vader kicking ***.

Tom Stoppard was employed to sharpen up the script of ROTS, and it shows. The repartee of the romance scene between Padme and Anikin in that film actually has some wit and charm to it whilst the Opera House scene is probably the best actor's scene and the best written in the entire six movies. So on that count I don't disagree as the benefits are self-evident, but I do think you're exaggerating the problems considerably.

Oh, and btw, R2's memory wasn't deleted because he can't speak.


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## Xaltotun

It's very strange, but I've begun to like the _Phantom Menace_ a little bit. It's like a weird, off-beat adventure film from the early 80's, with some memorable and likable characters... also, Jar Jar is so very strange and face-palmingly awkward that he has somehow turned interesting in my eyes. Moreover, the central mystery is compelling - so very little is explained.

I still dislike _Attack of the Clones_ and outright hate the _Revenge of the Sith_, though.


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## drpraetorus

Heresy, blasphemy! you've got it all turned around!


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## regressivetransphobe

TrazomGangflow said:


> They all have good special effects, though.


I'd contest this. They look like giant stupid video games to me. Overuse of CGI makes a movie look artificial and dead, and the art design is needlessly busy. Anyone remember what General Insidious or whatever looked like besides the fact he had 6 arms? Me neither.


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## Crudblud

regressivetransphobe said:


> I'd contest this. They look like giant stupid video games to me. Overuse of CGI makes a movie look artificial and dead, and the art design is needlessly busy. Anyone remember what General Insidious or whatever looked like besides the fact he had 6 arms? Me neither.


General Insidious had six arms?


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## regressivetransphobe

Crudblud said:


> General Insidious had six arms?


I don't remember, but in a way that reinforces my point.


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## drpraetorus

Just wait til Lucas is done tweaking the movies. Oh, that's right he's never done 'cause easch revision bring in a ton o' bucks.


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## SuperTonic

It looks like there are going to be new Star Wars movies. Disney is buying out Lucasfilm, Ltd. and is planning on filming episodes 7 through 9. Episode 7 is supposed to be in theaters in 2015.

This is all according to Fox News.
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/10/30/disney-buying-tar-wars-maker-lucasfilm-for-405b/


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## Norse

Hm, I guess a few million geeks will be celebrating tonight.. 'Disney' doesn't sound too uplifting, but if Lucas isn't going to be writing the scripts and directing this time, I think that alone is cause for some careful optimism.


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## Carpenoctem

Well, that was unexpected. I just hope they don't make another "Phantom Menace" in the last 3 episodes.


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## KenOC

Any prequel will be welcome, just so long as they don't bring back Jar Jar Binks.


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## Norse

KenOC said:


> Any prequel will be welcome, just so long as they don't bring back Jar Jar Binks.


Well, episode 7 wouldn't be a prequel it would be a sequel.  There has been talk of a sequel trilogy basically since the very first movie, but Lucas has been vague about it, and for the last years his position has been that it all ends with Return of the Jedi. I wonder how much these new movies will have to do with whatever he thought about back in the day.. Maybe Mark Hamill will make an appearance. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_sequel_trilogy


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## KenOC

Norse said:


> Well, episode 7 wouldn't be a prequel it would be a sequel.


Here I sit, corrected. I can do no other. But no Binks -- or offspring!


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## Norse

Well, since there are no gungas or whatever they're called in ep.4-6, there's really no need to put them in ep.7-9, especially with all the Jarjar hate. But you never know. Come to think of it, there's a very good chance they'll come up with some annoying comic relief.


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## bassClef

I'm no star wars nut, they are all standard sci-fi films to me, none of them hold a candle to Blade Runner. But why so much hate for the prequels? Perhaps because the people that loved the original trilogy were in their teens, and when the prequels came out were close to 40! (and still blinded by their devotion to the originals). I can't see much difference in quality to be honest.


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## SuperTonic

In another story I read somewhere else they said Lucas would be involved in the new movies as a "creative consultant".


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## Ramako

SuperTonic said:


> This is all according to Fox News.


Is it reliable??? In this country that has a terrible reputation, but still it should be reliable. WOW 

It's still not as exciting The Hobbit... but still WOW 

Mind you, the wiki plot outline looks dreadful... These could be genuinely pretty mediocre...


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## SuperTonic

I've seen reports from other news services since I first saw it on Fox. It appears to be true.


----------

