# Definitive in what role?



## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I figure most of us have a favorite for a certain role. Who's your favorite Don Diovanni? Who is your absolute favorite Figaro in Il Barbiere, or Le Nozze? Who is your favorite Duke or Rigoletto? Madama Butterfly or Carmen? Who is your Siegfried?

I ask this, because there are certain singers I consider perfect for the roles they are playing, and some so good, I can't give anyone else the same love I give them. Firstly, my number one, nobody else can do it in my eyes:

*Kurt Moll* as Osmin from Mozart's Die Entführung aus dem Serail






He hits all the right notes, and regardless of whether live or in a studio, you don't get the sense that he's struggling. He sings the part and plays the part so well. He's the kind of singer who I love so much, his name on the cover of any recording is enough to convince my purchase.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Possibly relevant thread I started last year, about Natalie Dessay's definitive role(s)
http://www.talkclassical.com/28687-natalie-dessay-definitive-role.html
I was and am torn between Lucia and Manon.

The converse of the question is interesting as well. For what roles is (performer) the definitive interpreter of, for his or her generation of singers? If you have one role that you're the definitive interpreter of, that's quite a feat. More than one and you're among a very elite group of top tier, all-time greats. I'd say that for her generation Ms. Dessay is certainly the definitive interpreter for Lucia, Olympia, Marie, Offenbach's Eurydice (though, this isn't commonly performed so it's not as big of an accomplishment), Lucie (ditto), and Morgana (ditto again) and has a strong case for Zerbinetta, Ophelia, and Manon. Weaker claims to Amina, Cleopatra, and Juliette. Among her other well-known roles, I prefer Ms. Damrau for der Konigin, and Ms. Netrebko for Violetta.

Can any other singer of her generation lay claim to so many definitive interpretations? Perhaps Ms. Netrebko, with Adina, Violetta, Norina, possibly Anna Bolena, possibly Mimi, debatably Manon (though, she'd be my second or third choice).


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I've never given her much of a go, because I don't like much as far as newer singers. Most of my favorite singers are in the 60's and up, or are gone.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

That seems an unfortunate and limiting bit of self-imposed circumscription. There are wonderful singers of all eras.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I just don't really care for much of the modern productions of operas and it seems like there aren't as many super singers anymore, and if luck allows it, there will only be one or two in a production, where as years ago you'd get grand singers in almost every role. I love many younger singers, just not so much the productions they are in.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Every generation going back to the 1700s has thought that singers of the current generation simply couldn't match up to those of the previous generation. Imagine they're all right, how great those singers must have been! Despite tenors not being able to hit a high c in chest voice (developed by Gilbert Duprez in the 19th century), of course, or having anything like the volume to fill a 4000 seat opera house, or any other various technical advances singers have made over the last several hundred years.

Honestly, the view of current singers being inferior is an age-old view always held by grumpy old men who tend to start sentences with "Back in my day, ..."

There were just as many sub-par singers then as now; the difference is, those names aren't remembered because they didn't have a reputation that lasted -- due to their sub-par singing.

And there were terrible productions then as well. Heck, for a very long time the Met performed many, if not most, operas in English translation. Can you imagine the Met staging an entire production of Lucia or Traviata in English in 2014? So in some ways, we've made significant progress. Of course, if the only thing that will satisfy is Pavarotti and Freni in a Zefferelli Boheme, then so be it ... but I would again suggest that this attitude places hard limits on how much pleasure one can truly derive from opera.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

That's a good way to put it, and I agree. 

I admit often that my picky ways have hindered me as a listener. I need to give some singers a better chance.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Anyway, sorry to derail. Back on topic, I really like Enzo Dara as Dulcamara. Just the right amount of clownishness and his voice fits the role perfectly. All too often Dulcamara is an afterthought in l'Elisir - Nemorino and Adina tend to hog the spotlight.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I don't like the term definitive, as I think most great works, and most great roles lend themselves to a range of interpretations. There is no definitive Tristan or Otello, just as there is no definitive Hamlet or Lear (I'm thinking of the Shakespeare plays here).

That said certain artists spoil me for certain roles, and Callas for pretty much everything she sang.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Certainly, I agree "definitive" is not probably the right word here. After all, the future is open, and tomorrow a new performance can replace for you the former "definitive" rendition.

Having said that, I've always being in love with Callas's Norma. I love quite a few other sopranos singing the role, in their different approaches: Sutherland, Caballé, Cerquetti, Gencer, Theodossiou,... but Callas is for me something different. With her, I can pretend I'm listening to Giuditta Pasta or Henriette Méric-Lalande, and I'm back to Bellini's own times, as the passenger in a time machine driven by the Greek diva. Of course, this is just a personal feeling, but that's after all part of the magic of operatic singing for me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't like the term definitive, as I think most great works, and most great roles lend themselves to a range of interpretations. There is no definitive Tristan or Otello, just as there is no definitive Hamlet or Lear (I'm thinking of the Shakespeare plays here).
> 
> That said certain artists spoil me for certain roles, and Callas for pretty much everything she sang.


I'm on board, point for point. It was said by someone that great music is music which is greater than any performance of it can be. I'll venture that a great role is the same. I think perhaps that small roles can be done "definitively;" I heard Anton Dermota do the shepherd in Act 3 of _Tristan_ and the sympathy and plaintive beauty of it were heartbreaking. But the leads in the same opera? No one will ever realize them fully; they simply ask too much, vocally and dramatically. There are occasions when the miracle of near-perfection almost happens in a major role, and we know we're hearing (and seeing) something we're unlikely ever to experience again. Callas pulled it off when her voice was at its best, or even later, as her matchless Tosca at Covent Garden shows. I guess if I had to point to a definitive performance, that would be it (and could Gobbi's Scarpia be any better?). Not a few of her recordings, too, stand head and and shoulders above everyone else's. But I could go on about her forever. I'll stop now.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by GregMitchell
> I don't like the term definitive, as I think most great works, and most great roles lend themselves to a range of interpretations. There is no definitive Tristan or Otello, just as there is no definitive Hamlet or Lear (I'm thinking of the Shakespeare plays here).
> 
> Woodduck: That said certain artists spoil me for certain roles, and Callas for pretty much everything she sang.
> I'm on board, point for point. It was said by someone that great music is music which is greater than any performance of it can be. I'll venture that a great role is the same. I think perhaps that small roles can be done "definitively;" I heard Anton Dermota do the shepherd in Act 3 of Tristan and the sympathy and plaintive beauty of it were heartbreaking. But the leads in the same opera? No one will ever realize them fully; they simply ask too much, vocally and dramatically. There are occasions when the miracle of near-perfection almost happens in a major role, and we know we're hearing (and seeing) something we're unlikely ever to experience again. Callas pulled it off when her voice was at its best, or even later, as her matchless Tosca at Covent Garden shows. I guess if I had to point to a definitive performance, that would be it (and could Gobbi's Scarpia be any better?). Not a few of her recordings, too, stand head and and shoulders above everyone else's. But I could go on about her forever. I'll stop now.


No, 'going on forever' is a nice start for Callas. Please, continue.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> Having said that, I've always being in love with Callas's Norma. I love quite a few other sopranos singing the role, in their different approaches: Sutherland, Caballé, Cerquetti, Gencer, Theodossiou,... but Callas is for me something different. With her, I can pretend I'm listening to Giuditta Pasta or Henriette Méric-Lalande, and I'm back to Bellini's own times, as the passenger in a time machine driven by the Greek diva. Of course, this is just a personal feeling, but that's after all part of the magic of operatic singing for me.


I'd have to agree. I honestly don't think anyone has ever bettered her Norma, not within recorded history anyway. I'm not even sure Ponselle could have brought as much to the role, though we only have her _Casta diva_ and a _Mira, o Norma_ with Telva as examples of her interpretation.

Callas's Medea in a different class from anyone else who ever sang it, though she only ever sang it in a bastardised version, translated into Italian, with recitatives by Franz Lachner.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> think perhaps that small roles can be done "definitively;" I heard Anton Dermota do the shepherd in Act 3 of _Tristan_ and the sympathy and plaintive beauty of it were heartbreaking.


I'd say the same for Wunderlich's Steersman on the Konwitschny _Der fliegende Hollander_. Has anyone ever sung it better. Unfortunately though Fischer-Dieskau is an interestingly intellectual Dutchman, Marianne Schech is nothing short of disastrous as Senta.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

I had the great good fortune to live where the Met toured in the mid 1960s - 70s, and to have a friend who worked at the theatre. So I saw many of the "legendary greats", and met many of them, because my friend could get us to the"green room" (it wasn't) after performances. Most (but not all) were gracious and friendly to a young couple who were soooo intent on learning about opera.

By "legendary greats", I mean Sutherland, Sills, Tucker, Corelli, Gedda, Merrill, MacNeill, Verrett, Horne, Freni, Bergonzi and the like.

The big difference between then and now is that we see far better acting today than I saw back then. Vocally, there are, of course, differences. Each singer is unique as to voice. But was the Netrebko experience better than the Sutherland? Was the Correlli experience better than the Beczala?

I think not, but I do think that each was and is unique. I would not have missed the Met tours for any amount of money; those are precious memories. For example, I recall Joan Sutherland, who was a big woman with serious back problems, after a scintillating Fille du Regiment (with a VERY young Pavarotti) talking freely about her back and my post polio issues. I remember loaning an engraved Cross pen to Pavarotti to sign autographs and having him (innocently) walk off with it. And so forth.

But I am delighted in my operatic experiences since then, since the Bel Canto Renaissance and the emergence of the DVD and HD simulcasts has enabled us to experience operas that simply were not performed "back in the day". Now, we have most of Rossini, when in earlier times, only The Barber was done, and cut at that.

Singers like Damrau, Devia, DiDonato, Florez, Kwiecien, D'Archangelo, Furlanetto and Villazon are every bit as exciting as were the old timers, and conductors like Pido and Armiliato are every bit as good as were the conductors of yesteryear.

In sum, I loved the (largely) "park and bark" performances we saw, and I continue to enjoy what is being done today, with the sole exception of "Eurotrash" stage directors, which is an issue for another day.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I'd have to agree. I honestly don't think anyone has ever bettered her Norma, not within recorded history anyway. I'm not even sure Ponselle could have brought as much to the role, though we only have her _Casta diva_ and a _Mira, o Norma_ with Telva as examples of her interpretation.
> 
> Callas's Medea in a different class from anyone else who ever sang it, though she only ever sang it in a bastardised version, translated into Italian, with recitatives by Franz Lachner.


---
Callas' Dallas and Florence Medeas are direct from Mount Olympus.

One familar with the performances can go on for days exhausting superlatives. An electromagnetic pulse wouldn't have a chance in hell of quelling her electricity. Leonard Bernstein called Callas in her Medea-mode "a powerplant"-- which is a huge understatement.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

For me, Wunderlich's Tamino sets the standard for this role. There are many other fine interpreters, but to my ears, he is ideal. Same for Jurinac's Leonore. And I'd rather listen to Kaufmann and Milnes in just about every role in their respective repertoires than anyone else. Not saying they're better; simply that I prefer them.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

While I think Cesare Siepi did one of the greatest performances of this character ever, Samuel Ramey has done it so many times and unlike Siepi, we have the honor of being able to see it. So Ramey wins for me. Plus, who can beat that laugh?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

If I take "definitive" to mean "ideal in the part" and not (as it too often does) "no one else can ever measure up, so why try?", then I'd say that from a purely vocal perspective Pavarotti is my definitive Duke of Mantua, while Dmitri Hvorostovsky is my definitive Eugene Onegin visually as well as vocally. "Perfect" is, IMO, the only word to describe his portrayal on the Met DVD from 2007. I'd also say that Frederica von Stade's Cherubino in the Solti recording of LE NOZZE DI FIGARO is definitive, because she captures not only the youth and impulsiveness of the character but also his vulnerability, a quality missed by too many singers of the part.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

rgz said:


> Every generation going back to the 1700s has thought that singers of the current generation simply couldn't match up to those of the previous generation. Imagine they're all right, how great those singers must have been! Despite tenors not being able to hit a high c in chest voice (developed by Gilbert Duprez in the 19th century), of course, or having anything like the volume to fill a 4000 seat opera house, or any other various technical advances singers have made over the last several hundred years.
> 
> Honestly, the view of current singers being inferior is an age-old view always held by grumpy old men who tend to start sentences with "Back in my day, ..."
> 
> ...


In his book _On the Art of Singing_, Richard Miller has quotations about "the lively dying art of singing" (his words) going back to 1723!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Fischer-Dieskau is an interestingly intellectual Dutchman.


That's an interestingly intellectual way of putting it! I rather like the way Ira Siff put it when, in his persona as Mme. Vera Galupe-Borszkh, he referred to "Betty Blackhead" and "Dietrich Fischer That Cow" and their "long and analytical careers." I've often felt that F.-D. is "explaining" music to me, and when Siff said that I practically doubled over. (Of course Dietrich and Betty are supreme artists and my laughter is completely benign. :devil


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

> Originally Posted by GregMitchell
> 
> Fischer-Dieskau is an interestingly intellectual Dutchman.
> 
> Woodduck: That's an interestingly intellectual way of putting it! I rather like the way Ira Siff put it when, in his persona as Mme. Vera Galupe-Borszkh, he referred to "Betty Blackhead" and "Dietrich Fischer That Cow" and their "long and analytical careers." I've often felt that F.-D. is "explaining" music to me, and when Siff said that I practically doubled over. (Of course Dietrich and Betty are supreme artists and my laughter is completely benign. )


For the uninitiated:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Simon Keenlyside as Papageno. He plays the unsophisticated innocent to perfection.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

I have never seen Keenlyside be anything but excellent. From Valentine to Macbeth to Germont, he displays a high level of stagecraft combined with impeccable musicianship.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

On CD:
Olivero - Adriana Lecouvreur
Shicoff - Eugene Onegin(Lensky)
Scotto - Madama Butterfly
Callas - Lucia di Lammermoor
Siepi - Don Carlo (King Philippe)
Corelli - Tosca (Cavaradossi -Parma)

Live:
Villazon - Romeo et Juliette
Radvanovsky - Norma
Hvorostovsky - Eugene Onegin
Kaufmann - Adriana Lecouvreur(Maurizio)
Neway - The Consul(Magda Sorel)
Shicoff - La Juive


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