# If you could reallot years from composers lives and redistribute them...



## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

So here's the thought experiment. You can take 20 years off of Haydn's life and give it to Mozart and Schubert, or whatever you want. If you had the power to change history and reallot the years of composers' lives, what would you do?


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

nothing :devil::lol::tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

brotagonist said:


> nothing :devil::lol::tiphat:


I second things, let things stay as they are :tiphat:


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Oh you guys are no fun. This is just a thought experiment entirely for the laughs. Not like you actually CAN change the past. But if you could...?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Send pretty much all 19th century italian opera composers to the fire. Give their years to Mozart, Schubert, Lili Boulanger or any other that died too young.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2015)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Send pretty much all 19th century italian opera composers to the fire. Give their years to Mozart, Schubert, Lili Boulanger or any other that died too young.


Well, I'd keep Verdi. But perhaps I'd threaten to send him to the fire just to urge him to reach his late period a little sooner


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'd give all of Salieri's 75 yesrs to Mozart.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

mmsbls said:


> I'd give all of Salieri's 75 yesrs to Mozart.


Then Mozart would live an unprecedented (at the time) 110 years!  Surely you can give Salieri just a bit of life....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'd take Haydn's last few unproductive years and keep them for myself. Nyaha-ha-ha!


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I'd take Haydn's last few unproductive years and keep them for myself. Nyaha-ha-ha!


I find your response to be quite funny, truly. However, are you a composer? Maybe you are, I don't know, but the thought experiment was to reallot years of composers so one could presumably hear more music from one composer and less from another. Inactive years of composers lives is free game, but you can only give it to yourself if you're a composer. Though who am I to judge I guess, your answer is fair enough, but not what I had in mind, certainly.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'd give it to Chopin, so that he could finally delve some more into other ensembles. There's music of his aside from solo piano, but not enough! Oh, and Scriabin needs to finish the Mysterium! We kind of missed out on the apocalypse, you guys.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Dedalus said:


> I find your response to be quite funny, truly. However, are you a composer?


 The OP wrote, "...and give it to Mozart and Schubert, or whatever you want." Don't believe I've broken any rules, but I'll be happy to assent to the views of a panel of righteous judges.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

KenOC said:


> The OP wrote, "...and give it to Mozart and Schubert, or whatever you want." Don't believe I've broken any rules, but I'll be happy to assent to the views of a panel of righteous judges.


Oh come on, you knew my intent, even if I didn't word it specifically so. Come on!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Dedalus said:


> Oh come on, you knew my intent, even if I didn't word it specifically so. Come on!


Well, in fact I've written a ditty or two (yes, 'tis true.) So am I a composer? C'mon now, let me know!


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Dedalus said:


> So here's the thought experiment. You can take 20 years off of Haydn's life and give it to Mozart and Schubert, or whatever you want. If you had the power to change history and reallot the years of composers' lives, what would you do?


What a horrible thing to think...

I remember reading once that Glenn Gould was asked if he found it tragic that Mozart lived too little and he replied ''quite the opposite, I think he lived too long''. I don't recall being pleased reading this, and GG is my favorite musician.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Well, in fact I've written a ditty or two (yes, 'tis true.) So am I a composer? C'mon now, let me know!


Who am I to say really? Maybe you are a composer. I've come up with 1000 guitar riffs in my life, without ever writing a song. Am I a composer? I'm not so sure I am. But if you are, heck, fair enough.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GG did indeed say this, probably with the aim of outraging everybody in sight. He succeeded I think.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Gouldanian said:


> What a horrible thing to think...
> 
> I remember reading once that Glenn Gould was asked if he found it tragic that Mozart lived too little and he replied ''quite the opposite, I think he lived too long''. I don't recall being pleased reading this, and GG is my favorite musician.


The fact is that Gould was a great pianist (not in Mozart though) who lost too many opportunities of keeping his mouth shut. He may have wanted to outrage peopke but he actually ended up looking pretty stupid in the eyes of most people. Interestingly what GG said about Mozart might also have been said of himself!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I'd take Sibelius's last 30 years and give them to Mahler.

And the Carter/Schubert ratio could be altered substantially.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

I'd give every year of Leo Ornstein's life to Schubert. Schubert, greatest and oldest composer ever.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Der Leiermann said:


> I'd give every year of Leo Ornstein's life to Schubert. Schubert, greatest and oldest composer ever.


I love Ornstein, but my heart leaps through my chest when listening to the Unfinished Symphony. It's not even finished and it's my personal favorite!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

To make things more fun, let's imagine that you have to murder personally the composers you take years away from.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The fact is that Gould was a great pianist (not in Mozart though) who lost too many opportunities of keeping his mouth shut. He may have wanted to outrage peopke but he actually ended up looking pretty stupid in the eyes of most people. Interestingly what GG said about Mozart might also have been said of himself!


The last part was uncalled for...

I know you don't mean it. GG's golden years were his last ones between the age of 40 and 50. God knows what else he would have recorded... As classical music fans we've nothing but missed out by his early passing.

FYI he used to tell people all the time (including Cornelia Foss) that he was going to die at 50, and if he didn't he would conduct. Like I said, we've only missed out... Imagine how wilder the CM repertoire would've gotten with Gould as a conductor...


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The fact is that Gould was a great pianist _(not in Mozart though)_ (...)


Oh and I just remembered something regarding this. Though you're right about GG butchering Mozart's sonatas, he did give the best interpretation of Mozart's K491


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Dedalus said:


> So here's the thought experiment. You can take 20 years off of Haydn's life and give it to Mozart and Schubert, or whatever you want. If you had the power to change history and reallot the years of composers' lives, what would you do?


Two decades off John Cage and give to Mozart.

One decade off Schoenberg and give to Puccini to complete the epic Turandot opera.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Thirty years off of Bruckner's life and give it to Bach.

I'm ready for the WTC Books 3,4 and 5.

Also the Brandenburg Gate Mass in G Flat Minor.

And a critique of the 10 year old, precocious Beethoven.


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## LHB (Nov 1, 2015)

Seems like an awfully selfish thing to do. Who are we to determine who gets to live and die?


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

LHB said:


> Seems like an awfully selfish thing to do. Who are we to determine who gets to live and die?


Well it's just for fun... Don't make it sound like we're actually killing people here.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

As they were near contemporaries then 20 years added to Mahler and 20 years taken away from Sibelius seems a fair swap; both would then have lived to be about 70 which wasn't a bad age at all back then - Sibelius could still have enjoyed ten years in virtual retirement while Mahler could have given us a few more goodies. And also we could have known Mahler's reaction to events such as WWI and his views on the evolving music scene of the 1910s and 1920s.

EDIT: Apologies to Nereffid - I didn't spot his post until after I sent mine.


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## PJaye (May 22, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The fact is that Gould was a great pianist (not in Mozart though) who lost too many opportunities of keeping his mouth shut. He may have wanted to outrage peopke but he actually ended up looking pretty stupid in the eyes of most people. Interestingly what GG said about Mozart might also have been said of himself!


Rubbish. For anyone who takes time to look into it, Gould was a kind, gregarious and uplifting person to be around who despised that sort of provocative intent. He's one person around who gossip and here-say have taken on a life of there own though.
(This probably isn't the thread for this though)


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Sibelius is an easy target to take from, as he didn't compose in his last 30 years. I'd only take 20 years from him though, and give him a decade of happy retirement, able to bask in his acclaim.

I'll give those 20 years to Gershwin. On the condition he writes more concert music, especially a symphony.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

PJaye said:


> Rubbish. For anyone who takes time to look into it, Gould was a kind, gregarious and uplifting person to be around who despised that sort of provocative intent. He's one person around who gossip and here-say have taken on a life of there own though.
> (This probably isn't the thread for this though)


Sorry but if you look into it properly - and actually read what I said - you'll see my statement is quite correct.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The composers I'd most want to add years to are Schubert (died way too young), Mahler (just entering a new phase), and Beethoven (just because).


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

30 more years to Schubert.

And I have to take them from Elliott Carter purely out of fairness.

This exercise really contemplates murder, doesn't it?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> 30 more years to Schubert.
> 
> And I have to take them from Elliott Carter purely out of fairness.
> 
> This exercise really contemplates murder, doesn't it?


We'd lose many of Carter's best works. Why not take them from someone who didn't compose during that time, if you must be so cruel as to cut another's life short?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

It does not make me happy to lose all those Carter works either, but my conscience compels me to choose the oldest composer.

(I'm also assuming we're limited to reasonably well-known composers, otherwise we'd just choose really old nobodies.)


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'd simply take a week or a few days of all composers ever, except my favorites and redistribute that by adding many years to my favorite composers. Little harm done to composers I may like in the future.


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## PJaye (May 22, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but if you look into it properly - and actually read what I said - you'll see my statement is quite correct.


I know, there is such a quote. It was in reference to Mozart's last works though. Not his premature death. Gould felt he used a lot of clichés in his music. I happen to like Mozart, but everyone has different tastes and reasons for them. What bothers me is the thinking that Gould consciously sets out to 'outrage' people simply because he doesn't go in for blind acceptance of a common opinion. I don't agree with some things he's said, but I think one of the most important things we can do in life is to know our own opinions, thoughts, and beliefs, and not just follow the opinions of others. For me, that's where Glenn Gould's artistry came from. Sorry to deviate from the thread. I just wanted to reply.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Great ... I just _know_ somebody on this thread is going to steal a bunch of Gesualdo masterpieces from me.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

DeepR said:


> I'd simply take a week or a few days of all composers ever, except my favorites and redistribute that by adding many years to my favorite composers. Little harm done to composers I may like in the future.


Definitely cheating but quite clever.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'd take ten years away from Vivaldi and give them to JS Bach. This is a good trade which still allows Vivaldi fans most of his compositions.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2015)

Take Alma Deutscher and give us more John Cage.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Definitely cheating but quite clever.


And clearly communist.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Take Alma Deutscher and give us more John Cage.


ROFL!!!


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I would shorten Glazunov's life so he would have died right in the middle of writing his 8th symphony (he almost killed himself from an alcohol overdose in 1905 but he survived, and I bet he was pretty mad for a little while for surviving), and then everyone would love him today for being such a "martyr" for music and the people (he dedicated the symphony to the common people). Honestly. He didn't deserve to see Modernism's rise, WWI, the Russian Revolution, exile, the rise of Nazism, to see everyone reject him, etc. Even if this would mean Shostakovich would never come to be a composer and die when he was 16 or something, _and also hundreds of other musicians die_, so be it. Maybe Glazunov's shortened life would have inspired someone _else _to save Shostakovich's life and hundreds of others, *shrugs*. Better to die at the peak of your career, that's what I say. 

Or maybe people could have just been nicer to him, I don't know. Maybe I'd change that instead.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Take Alma Deutscher and give us more John Cage.


Yes, more silence would be a great benefit to humanity.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Blancrocher said:


> Great ... I just _know_ somebody on this thread is going to steal a bunch of Gesualdo masterpieces from me.


No! We can't let that happen! Gesualdo must stay right where he is. Three centuries ahead of your time has to count for something.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I'd take 10 years from every composer who ever lived and will live in the future, and reallocate them to Maria Callas. She would then really be immortal...


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2015)

Ah yes, thanks for the reminder. Remove all of Callas' years and reallocate them to Stockhausen.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Nobody wants to take all of Schoenberg's years? Really? There has to be somebody out there who wants to. I'm honestly surprised nobody has went there yet.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Nobody wants to take all of Schoenberg's years? Really? There has to be somebody out there who wants to. I'm honestly surprised nobody has went there yet.


Lets take 9 years from Schoenberg and give them to Webern.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Lets take 9 years from Schoenberg and give them to Webern.


Nah. Let's take 30 years from Sibelius and give them to Webern.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Morimur said:


> Nah. Let's take 30 years from Sibelius and give them to Webern.


I think it only counts if we take productive years.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> I think it only counts if we take productive years.


What if a composer wrote only bad works in a given year. Is that year available?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

KenOC said:


> What if a composer wrote only bad works in a given year. Is that year available?


Probably yes, like the late years of Hindemith could go somewhere else.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

KenOC said:


> What if a composer wrote only bad works in a given year. Is that year available?


At this point there really are no rules as long as it's funny as far as I'm concerned.


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

Just take Alma Deutscher and let everyone else be safe. I don't care who you give the years to, just get rid of that jealous, destructive human being that is Ms. Deutscher! 

Yours truly, a stickler for safe and consensual fusion (e.g. Richannes Wrahms).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Did little Alma actually do anything to deserve the hatred she has here, or is it all in response to the way she's been used here?


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I'd snatch a few decades off from Sibelius (am I allowed to say this as a Finn?) and give them to Mahler.

There are many composers who died way too early - Mozart, Schubert, Chopin, Scriabin, Webern - but the thought of hearing more music from Mahler is just too bewildering to be ignored. Just to imagine all the music he could've composed... And to see in which direction his artistic intuition would've taken him; that's an exciting thought if there ever was one.

And with "too early" I mean too early as in _not being able to compose the music I desire to hear from said composers._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I would take all the years from Beethoven and Wagner just to see where music would have gone without them - and then I'd give all the years back plus a few more as interest on the loan, but only on condition of one more big work from each.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2015)

science said:


> Did little Alma actually do anything to deserve the hatred she has here, or is it all in response to the way she's been used here?


Lol, what could she possibly have done?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Lol, what could she possibly have done?


Not die in the womb, obviously.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Not die in the womb, obviously.


As deliciously blunt as ever, Wrahms.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Not die in the womb, obviously.


Blimey, mate. If she joins TC in 10 years and sees this, you're going to have some explaining to do!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Blimey, mate. If she joins TC in 10 years and sees this, you're going to have some explaining to do!


I've seen this happen, twice, on another forum. Best to speak with some respect of the living. Insulting the dead is, of course, safer.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Under a pessimistic point of view every birth is a horror.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Under a pessimistic point of view every birth is a horror.


This is actually exactly my point of view, and why, even if I were to somehow by a miracle get a girlfriend and presumably afterwards a wife, I could not have kids. I wouldn't want another intelligent yet miserable soul to be created to walk this earth. I would not be able to bear the guilt of creating a soul for the world to inevitably torture.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Benatar


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

SeptimalTritone said:


> This is actually exactly my point of view, and why, even if I were to somehow by a miracle get a girlfriend and presumably afterwards a wife, I could not have kids. I wouldn't want another intelligent yet miserable soul to be created to walk this earth. I would not be able to bear the guilt of creating a soul for the world to inevitably torture.


Well, this sure is turning into an upbeat thread...


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Just remember that mermaids have no soul.

Every time I ruin a thread a phoenix sings of death and Morimur grows stronger.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2015)

If Alma Deutscher signs up for this forum in 10 years, a Wrahms post will be but a drop in the ocean.

_"Apparently some kid thought I was the Messiah when I was 9 years old. Could someone tell me how to file for a restraining order?"_


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

nathanb said:


> If Alma Deutscher signs up for this forum in 10 years, a Wrahms post will be but a drop in the ocean.
> 
> _"Apparently some kid thought I was the Messiah when I was 9 years old. Could someone tell me how to file for a restraining order?"_


To think that I was originally going to post:

"I'd take 10 years from every composer who ever lived (fewer from Alma Deutscher, obviously) and will live in the future, and reallocate them to Maria Callas. She would then really be immortal... "

but dismissed it as too crass and tasteless even for Talk Classical...


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> To think that I was originally going to post:
> 
> "I'd take 10 years from every composer who ever lived (fewer from Alma Deutscher, obviously) and will live in the future, and reallocate them to Maria Callas. She would then really be immortal... "
> 
> but dismissed it as too crass and tasteless even for Talk Classical...


TC may be strict on direct aggression and potty mouths, but the _implicit_ things one is allowed to say are frighteningly infinite.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Ok how about this. Take 5 years off of Wagner's life, losing Parsifal, and add them to Mahler on the condition that he use that time to write an opera!!! I think a Mahler opera could be out of this world,and I also think Tristan and the Ring are Wagner's crowning achievements. I would take a Mahler opera over Parsifal any day of the week, any week of the year! I mean.. As long as Mahler's opera ended up being good, of course.


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## PJaye (May 22, 2015)

Dedalus said:


> Ok how about this. Take 5 years off of Wagner's life, losing Parsifal, and add them to Mahler on the condition that he use that time to write an opera!!! I think a Mahler opera could be out of this world,and I also think Tristan and the Ring are Wagner's crowning achievements. I would take a Mahler opera over Parsifal any day of the week, any week of the year! I mean.. As long as Mahler's opera ended up being good, of course.


I think that could be a natural unfortunate -or maybe fortunate- by product of this experiment. Said composer whom years are given to may start having urges to write in another style for some reason -the style of said composer years were taken from. And possibly Mahler might wonder why he gets a sudden urge to flee to Paris, then Zurich. Just a hypothesis.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Dedalus said:


> Ok how about this. Take 5 years off of Wagner's life, losing Parsifal, and add them to Mahler on the condition that he use that time to write an opera!!! I think a Mahler opera could be out of this world,and I also think Tristan and the Ring are Wagner's crowning achievements. I would take a Mahler opera over Parsifal any day of the week, any week of the year! I mean.. As long as Mahler's opera ended up being good, of course.


I'm shouting with my fingers in my ears already after two sentences of this paragraph, my friend! :lol:


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

PJaye said:


> I think that could be a natural unfortunate -or maybe fortunate- by product of this experiment. Said composer whom years are given to may start having urges to write in another style for some reason -the style of said composer years were taken from. And possibly Mahler might wonder why he gets a sudden urge to flee to Paris, then Zurich. Just a hypothesis.


Indeed, there are a lot of problems with this experiment. The contemplation of murdering composers early, multiple universes, your own criticisms... Oh well, I say!


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Ok how about this. Take 5 years off of Wagner's life, losing Parsifal, and add them to Mahler on the condition that he use that time to write an opera!!! I think a Mahler opera could be out of this world,and I also think Tristan and the Ring are Wagner's crowning achievements. I would take a Mahler opera over Parsifal any day of the week, any week of the year! I mean.. As long as Mahler's opera ended up being good, of course.


No Parsifal means no Debussy as we know him.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> No Parsifal means no Debussy as we know him.


Might as well chop Debussy up then, and give his years to Mozart and Schubert.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Might as well chop Debussy up then, and give his years to Mozart and Schubert.


Oh and give some to Lili Boulanger. Also teleport her to the present so I can date her :3


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Might as well chop Debussy up then, and give his years to Mozart and Schubert.


.....
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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Der Leiermann said:


> .....
> .
> .
> .
> ...


Don't get me wrong. I love Debussy! It's just you have to make some sacrifices in order to get some reward. So if losing Parsifal means we don't get Debussy, I guess we don't need Debussy anymore, and that's lots of years to spread around.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Ok how about this. Take 5 years off of Wagner's life, losing Parsifal, and add them to Mahler on the condition that he use that time to write an opera!!! I think a Mahler opera could be out of this world,and I also think Tristan and the Ring are Wagner's crowning achievements. I would take a Mahler opera over Parsifal any day of the week, any week of the year! I mean.. As long as Mahler's opera ended up being good, of course.


No one would have scorned this suggestion more than Mahler, who adored _Parsifal_ all his life and even quoted it in _Das Lied von der Erde._


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Don't get me wrong. I love Debussy! It's just you have to make some sacrifices in order to get some reward. So if losing Parsifal means we don't get Debussy, I guess we don't need Debussy anymore, and that's lots of years to spread around.


I'm a big Schubert fan but wouldn't take a single year of Debussy's life to give him, he wrote precious little as it is.
Just chop up some random third tier composer like, say, Meyerbeer. I wouldn't mind if Telemann or Vivaldi died a little earlier either.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Der Leiermann said:


> I'm a big Schubert fan but wouldn't take a single year of Debussy's life to give him, he wrote precious little as it is.
> Just chop up some random third tier composer like, say, Meyerbeer. I wouldn't mind if Telemann or Vivaldi died a little earlier either.


Ok, fine we keep all of Wagner's years so he can write parsifal and so we can have the Debussy we want, and sure take it from Telemann, Meyerbeer, and Vivaldi. All three composers I don't know that well, so heck, doesn't make much difference to me. And give those to Mozart, Schubert, Mahler (as long as he writes an opera) and Lili Boulanger. Also that teleportation of her to the present is still a thing..... Any objections to that?


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> No one would have scorned this suggestion more than Mahler, who adored _Parsifal_ all his life and even quoted it in _Das Lied von der Erde._


I had no idea there was a _Parsifal_ quote in _Das Lied von der Erde_, which song is it in?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> Ok, fine we keep all of Wagner's years so he can write parsifal and so we can have the Debussy we want, and sure take it from Telemann, Meyerbeer, and Vivaldi. All three composers I don't know that well, so heck, doesn't make much difference to me. And give those to Mozart, Schubert, Mahler (as long as he writes an opera) and Lili Boulanger. Also that teleportation of her to the present is still a thing..... Any objections to that?


I'd give a couple of years to Debussy so he can complete his Poe operas, other than that, that's perfectly fine. :tiphat:


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> No one would have scorned this suggestion more than Mahler, who adored _Parsifal_ all his life and even quoted it in _Das Lied von der Erde._


Exactly! We aren't considering the myriad consequences of an alternate timeline. Remove one guy from the picture, and the seemingly innocuous chain of resulting events could mean that the other guy isn't born in the first place!


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> Exactly! We aren't considering the myriad consequences of an alternate timeline. Remove one guy from the picture, and the seemingly innocuous chain of resulting events could mean that the other guy isn't born in the first place!


I agree completely, and admit this is a wholly absurd premise. But as I've said.. Oh well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

You change anything in the past and we have no idea what the outcome will be. But it's still fun to think about in my opinion.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DiesIraeCX said:


> I had no idea there was a _Parsifal_ quote in _Das Lied von der Erde_, which song is it in?


In act 3 of Parsifal, as Gurnemanz arouses Kundry from sleep, he says "Der Winter floh, und Lenz ist da!" (winter flees, and spring is here). The notes on which he sings "und Lenz ist da" are used by Mahler as the basis of the melody in the song "The Drunkard in Spring," set to the words "Der Lenz ist da." Since _Parsifal_ is my favorite opera, and _Das Lied_ is my favorite work of Mahler, I find this tribute very moving.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> In act 3 of Parsifal, as Gurnemanz arouses Kundry from sleep, he says "Der Winter floh, und Lenz ist da!" (winter flees, and spring is here). The notes on which he sings "und Lenz ist da" are used by Mahler as the basis of the melody in the song "The Drunkard in Spring," set to the words "Der Lenz ist da." Since _Parsifal_ is my favorite opera, and _Das Lied_ is my favorite work of Mahler, I find this tribute very moving.


Hmmm... I enjoyed your thematic synopsis of Parsifal but hadn't realized that it was your favorite. If I had to pick a favorite, I'd be pulling my hair out trying to decide between multiple Handel, Purcell, and Wagner works, but Tristan und Isolde is in that mix. Guess if we're going by Wagner's standards it's not even an opera, though, is it? He called it an _eine Handlung_.


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## Abraham Lincoln (Oct 3, 2015)

science said:


> Did little Alma actually do anything to deserve the hatred she has here, or is it all in response to the way she's been used here?


At least on my part, it's some sort of an in-joke about my fictionalized Alma Deutscher being an envy-driven monster of a humam that force fused various composers together into horrifying abominations that are in constant pain.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> Hmmm... I enjoyed your thematic synopsis of Parsifal but hadn't realized that it was your favorite. If I had to pick a favorite, I'd be pulling my hair out trying to decide between multiple Handel, Purcell, and Wagner works, but Tristan und Isolde is in that mix. Guess if we're going by Wagner's standards it's not even an opera, though, is it? He called it an _eine Handlung_.


He called his operas all sorts of things, including "opera." Handlung, Musikdrama, Buehnenweihfestspiel, Artwork of the Future...He just couldn't put a stopper in that bubbling bottle of creativity.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Lukecash12 said:


> Hmmm... I enjoyed your thematic synopsis of Parsifal but hadn't realized that it was your favorite. If I had to pick a favorite, I'd be pulling my hair out trying to decide between multiple Handel, Purcell, and Wagner works, but Tristan und Isolde is in that mix. Guess if we're going by Wagner's standards it's not even an opera, though, is it? He called it an _eine Handlung_.


As long as we're discussing the matter, my favorite opera happens to also be the first one I ever watched on video and that's Tristan und Isolde. It's near the top of the list of recommended operas on the TC list for a reason, I think, and that's why I chose it as my first opera. I've since watched many operas and still... There's something about Tristan that still makes me call it my favorite.

I feel like digressing into my experience of Tristan, just because I can. I didn't, as is my usual practice, read any synopsis of the plot before watching it. I really love being surprised by plot twists and turns. I watched the 1983 Barenboim version because it has a full version with english subtitles on youtube. Now when I first spotted the Tristan character, I was like "Ah, there's the male lead, he looks so dashing". Not to mention his name is in the title of the opera. But as the first act progressed and I heard Isolde talking of how she healed him and how he was the murderer of her husband I changed my mind into "Oh, not the male lead, he's the bad guy, ok". Now when it came down to the potion taking, I was very confused. They just pause... there is this.. not quite awkward, but eerie pause and then the next thing I know they are embracing and saying each other's names. Now at this point I was like WHAT IS GOING ON!?!?!?!? In fact, it was incredibly powerful for me. The confusion, the music, the love, it really, really hit me in a way nothing else ever had before. Of course I figured out about Brangane's plot to save Isolde and it eventually made sense. I just wanted to share this experience, but to me it's a moment that I'll never forget, and I daresay Wagner worked his magic on me as he intended.

One last thing, a question: Why did Brangane have to switch the death potion with a love potion, couldn't she have just used a healing potion? Yeah they were both fully healed already, but it would have at least just done nothing. Were those the only two potions she had on hand at the time? In any case, if it didn't happen like it did the rest of the opera wouldn't have happened, so I really can't complain.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> As long as we're discussing the matter, my favorite opera happens to also be the first one I ever watched on video and that's Tristan und Isolde. It's near the top of the list of recommended operas on the TC list for a reason, I think, and that's why I chose it as my first opera. I've since watched many operas and still... There's something about Tristan that still makes me call it my favorite.
> 
> I feel like digressing into my experience of Tristan, just because I can. I didn't, as is my usual practice, read any synopsis of the plot before watching it. I really love being surprised by plot twists and turns. I watched the 1983 Barenboim version because it has a full version with english subtitles on youtube. Now when I first spotted the Tristan character, I was like "Ah, there's the male lead, he looks so dashing". Not to mention his name is in the title of the opera. But as the first act progressed and I heard Isolde talking of how she healed him and how he was the murderer of her husband I changed my mind into "Oh, not the male lead, he's the bad guy, ok". Now when it came down to the potion taking, I was very confused. They just pause... there is this.. not quite awkward, but eerie pause and then the next thing I know they are embracing and saying each other's names. Now at this point I was like WHAT IS GOING ON!?!?!?!? In fact, it was incredibly powerful for me. The confusion, the music, the love, it really, really hit me in a way nothing else ever had before. Of course I figured out about Brangane plot to save Isolde and it eventually made sense. I just wanted to share this experience, but to me it's a moment that I'll never forget, and I daresay Wagner worked his magic on me as he intended.
> 
> *One last thing, a question: Why did Brangane have to switch the death potion with a love potion, couldn't she have just used a healing potion? Yeah they were both fully healed already, but it would have at least just done nothing. Were those the only two potions she had on hand at the time? * In any case, if it didn't happen like it did the rest of the opera wouldn't have happened, so I really can't complain.


Jeez. There's a logician in every crowd.

Actually, I'm guessing that she was so rattled by the whole situation that she didn't know what she was putting in the drink. She wasn't trained in pharmaceuticals like her employer. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, since Wagner works a clever twist into the traditional story. In the old romance, T & I's love is caused solely by the potion. But in the opera, they're totally obsessed with each other to begin with (although T has to keep it to himself out of loyalty to Uncle Mark), and even if the potion had been water they'd have ended up in each other's arms. Their plan is to drink poison and die together rather than live apart, but when the "poison" doesn't work and they're standing there gazing into each other's eyes... Well, what would _you_ do? Agree to pretend the whole thing didn't happen? Ha. Clever bugger, that Wagner.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Jeez. There's a logician in every crowd.
> 
> Actually, I'm guessing that she was so rattled by the whole situation that she didn't know what she was putting in the drink. She wasn't trained in pharmaceuticals like her employer. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, since Wagner works a clever twist into the traditional story. In the old romance, T & I's love is caused solely by the potion. But in the opera, they're totally obsessed with each other to begin with (although T has to keep it to himself out of loyalty to Uncle Mark), and even if the potion had been water they'd have ended up in each other's arms. Their plan is to drink poison and die together rather than live apart, but when the "poison" doesn't work and they're standing there gazing into each other's eyes... Well, what would _you_ do? Agree to pretend the whole thing didn't happen? Ha. Clever bugger, that Wagner.


I'll take being a "logician" as a compliment, however you might have meant it, jokingly or otherwise. But your answer is pretty satisfactory, and makes quite a bit of sense to me. Isolde healed him and couldn't kill him, he was healed by her and not killed by her. I can see how that could kindle some love between them... Even if he killed her previous husband in battle. It's a little unfair to her Morold, but love is blind, as it were, I suppose. Thanks for your answer.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

I've had more thoughts, so I feel I must express them further. So it's almost as if they used the excuse of the death potion as justifications in their own conscience to allow their true feelings to come out. They couldn't do it because of Tristan's pride and Isolde's shame, but if they figured it was some magical potion doing it... They can go ahead and act out their heart's desires without shame. Thus what you meant by the fact that it could have been water. Isolde did go on about his eyes during that one part, his eyes that stared at her, and thus she couldn't kill him. So they had these forbidden desires, and this circumstance allowed them to act on those desires without their consciences killing them. After all, it's not them, it's the love potion's fault... Presumably.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dedalus said:


> I've had more thoughts, so I feel I must express them further. So it's almost as if they used the excuse of the death potion as justifications in their own conscience to allow their true feelings to come out. They couldn't do it because of Tristan's pride and Isolde's shame, but if they figured it was some magical potion doing it... They can go ahead and act out their heart's desires without shame. Thus what you meant by the fact that it could have been water. Isolde did go on about his eyes during that one part, his eyes that stared at her, and thus she couldn't kill him. So they had these forbidden desires, and this circumstance allowed them to act on those desires without their consciences killing them. After all, it's not them, it's the love potion's fault... Presumably.


Fine analysis, my friend. Reality is more mysterious than magic potions.

:tiphat:


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

"What could death do but destroy what impedes us" says Tristan in the second act. I feel like I've hijacked my own thread, but how prophetic! Wagner man...


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

OK, can I propose that any further off topic posting here - however amusing or illuminating - (thanks, Woodduck) - shall result in the errant poster being docked 10 years of life? OK, maybe 5 for a first offence.

The forfeited years will then be transferred to the TC member of your choice, to see if they can make more productive use of it...


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> OK, can I propose that any further off topic posting here - however amusing or illuminating - (thanks, Woodduck) - shall result in the errant poster being docked 10 years of life? OK, maybe 5 for a first offence.
> 
> The forfeited years will then be transferred to the TC member of your choice, to see if they can make more productive use of it...


Lol. I'll give my 5 years to Dim7 just to keep the hilarity flowing.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Dedalus said:


> Lol. I'll give my 5 years to Dim7 just to keep the hilarity flowing.


Yours isn't a first offence!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I'd like music from the older Mozart, Webern and Berg. I'd make my Faustian pact for others' life in private


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Yours isn't a first offence!


Ok.... 10, 15, or 25, years fine. I don't get special rights as the creator of the thread? I guess not... Well mine is to be a short life indeed.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Really I have to apologize for my digression. When passion strikes me I find it hard not to pursue the thoughts on my mind. I should have just created another thread, clearly....

I'm not positive how many years I've racked up. But I'll give at least 10 to dim7 for the aforementioned reason. I'll give 10 to Mahlerian just to be contentious and because I consider him a friend. At least 5-whatever I have left to Woodduck for his answering my questions. I must admit that I disagree with Woodduck a lot, but when it comes to Wagner, he knows his stuff, and I fully trust him as a reliable source as somebody who has absorbed this material many times over many years.

<edit>I truly hope that doesn't sound insulting to Woodduck. I did not mean it so. Disagreement is different than respect...


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Boy it takes a long time for Tristan to die. That's another 10 years, I'll give it to you Turnabout. Pretty sure I'm about dead by now.


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