# I need an opera coach.



## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

With so many operas in my collection, I need someone to help me appreciate the form.

I have tried, but always fail. Only once or twice have I seen an opera and been blown away. 

I checked my shelves against the list of TC recommended operas, and of the top 20 alone I have 18 in my possession, so it should be possible, no? 

I enjoy a lot of oratorios, including the one I'm listening to as I type this, Solomon by Händel. I'm not afraid of vocal music at all, and I have accepted and understood (and I enjoy and am able to appreciate) the aesthetics of classical music vocal techniques. It's not the way they sing that puts me off. 

What is it with opera that leaves me cold? The silly stuff they're about, perhaps? I have a sneaky feeling that might be one of the things. The plots don't interest me at all. What else? They spend so much time getting to those dull and uninteresting points. Perhaps. Too many parts sound like words forcefully pushed into sub-standard music. (hint: The Evangelist was the last role in Bach's Passions I "liked". I struggle more with that sort of recitativo thing, obviously...)

I read the recent article linked to somewhere here about being bored, btw, where Gardiner and a few others were talking about (among other things) how maybe the dull bits must be there as contrast to the climactic bits, and I think that's not quite it in my case. I can sit through a long Oratorio from start to finish, and although I some times do get bored, I'm pretty good at letting the music just 'be there' while I perhaps let my thoughts wander. I read thick books. I see long movies. Opera tends to not bore me as such, it switches me off. 

My two really big opera moments were: 
1) When Aïda realizes she has to choose between her lover and her father. I found myself (literally) on the edge of my seat, and there were tears... (the fact that I wept for a character that was supposed to be a wee teenage girl even though she was played by an obese middle aged singer was not lost on me, and made me appreciate the power of the music all the more)
2) When the Commendatore (?, statue/ghost thingy) crashed through the wall and powerfully hit the low notes demaning Don Giovanni to repent. No tears this time, more a mental high-five for a moment where action, poignant life moments and great music came together. Or something. Basically, my jaw dropped and I got goose-bumps.  

Every other time I have very much been a removed, cold spectator, and the same goes for listening to records: I feel like I'm putting effort into something that doesn't deserve it. I haven't seen *that* many operas live, don't let me give that impression. Four or five more. Not including the operettas I was taken to as a kid...

So here's your chance to convert me. I will be a good student, I promise, and I have a LOT of operas right here, so I can do my homework. 

We can do it here "in pubic", or perhaps in a blog form, or via PM/email to keep it private, I don't care. 

Anyone want to show a stubborn Trønder what he's been missing?



(just an observation here at the and: I'm about half-way through Solomon right now, and the Harlot's "heart-felt anguish" really comes through, and if I hadn't been writing on this and thinking too much on other things, she may well have succeeded in "starting tears"... The Solomon story doesn't normally move me that much, so the question is still very much open: What is it that makes me enjoy just about every other form of music, and not Opera?)


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

100 views, no takers. Tall order, I admit...
Well, how about if I just ask this, then: 

Knowing that I like all sorts of oratorios and masses and music from the middle ages through to minimal techno and death metal, answer me this: What would be a good place to start? 
If I dedicate the time to listen to (and follow the libretto of and read about on wiki and all that it takes) one opera, in full, today, which one would you recommend?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> 100 views, no takers.


It might be because your initial post doesn't ask any clear questions. You're basically like opera newcomer with the difference that you have listened to the basic set of operas that are generally recommended for newbies, so it's quite difficult to find out what you need. It would be nice if you could give some hints on what aspects of what operas did you really like so we can suggest some operas that could suit your expectations.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Yes. I know. I get that. I am not your standard newbie. 
On the other hand, I am motivated, somewhat knowledgeable, and I will take advice seriously. 

If I knew what buttons to push to break the code I might not have felt the need to ask for help...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Well, so what was that Don Giovanni recording you listened to? If you was so impressed with commendatore scene, there is no reason for you not to like the whole opera and two other Mozart-Da Ponte masterpieces in effect, eh? 

And with the positive reaction to Aida, have you tried other Verdi operas from his middle-late period: Don Carlo and Simon Boccanegra in particular, not to mention the last two of his works? They hold similiar balance between great music and weight of the drama.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Both of the operas I referred to in the first post were ones I attended live. Aïda in Amsterdam and Don Giovanni in Oslo. Hard to extrapolate from...

But see, there's a reply I could work with... Thanks.
I'll give it a sincere attempt. 
The Don Carlo recording I have is a 1970 EMI recording, Royal Opera House conducted by Giulini, with Domingo, Caballé, etc. 
Looks good on paper, I guess. Opinions?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't think Domingo was that good as Don Carlo and I find plenty to dislike in his performance(s) of that role. If you prefer to watch than listen, there are superb performances of DVD: Salzburg thing under Karajan (Carreras, Cappuccilli, d'Amico, Baltsa, Furlanetto) and more recent thing with Villazon as Don Carlo, less brilliant but still outstanding. I'd recomment the first, I think it's very grasping. At least I was grasped.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I am not optimistic about this being a useful contribution, partly because I am not an opera buff. However...

Berlioz's _Les Troyens_ has both an interesting storyline and excellent music. I have both LSO/Davis et al recordings on CD, haven't seen it live or on DVD. It's one of those four hour 'events', but there is a natural break in the middle of the story.

Stravinsky's Œdipus Rex. I'm not even sure this is an opera, but it holds my attention and when it's done I don't feel like it was a waste of time.

I'm pretty sure you don't need a coach for either of those.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ukko said:


> Stravinsky's Œdipus Rex. I'm not even sure this is an opera, but it holds my attention and when it's done I don't feel like it was a waste of time.


bonus: it's short!

how about 



, does it meet your dramatic expectations? I say you randomly pick one of your many recordings and give it about an act or so to wow you. You never know what's going to work and it'll be an adventure whilst putting no pressure on you to like anything.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

deggial said:


> how about
> 
> 
> 
> , does it meet your dramatic expectations?


Come on now, why post this awful performance? Behrens beats all the records here in degree of re-writting the music in order to be able to perform it at all. Is the ridiculous acting so compensating?


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

I appreciate all input, but I should probably add that I am limiting my search to the albums I have in my possession, and will only turn to DVD if I find myself taken in by the music itself. And no youtube, please. 
The drama must in any case be present in the music. Otherwise I could just browse rom-coms on Netflix, couldn't I? 

I know I'm difficult, but I am about to turn to side four of Don Carlos, which so far has held my interest. 
No tears, but the Song of the veil had *something*, as did the opening of act II.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Ukko said:


> Stravinsky's Œdipus Rex. I'm not even sure this is an opera, but it holds my attention and when it's done I don't feel like it was a waste of time.


Can't find it in my shelves, but I know I have heard it before. And your criteria are a pretty good short version of a minimum of what any piece of music should offer, or what?


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Oh, there is some quality interaction between Eboli and Carlo in Act III! Yum.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

The key for me getting into opera was finding a specific performer who really blew me away and branching out from there -- watching their operas, finding more singers I particularly liked, and repeating the process.
Diana Damrau was the first to really grab me, and then Natalie Dessay (who remains my all time favorite). From there I found other singers but also found that coloratura sopranos are my favorites, which helps let me know if there's an opera I should check out; if it has some nice coloratura passages, I'll be able to enjoy at least parts of the opera even if the rest of it is a let down.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Good points. My approach to music has in almost every way been a matter of branching, so I understand that intuitively. 
That hasn't really worked for Opera before, which might be one of the reasons I am confused and, well, a little lost. 

I more or less gave up on opera altogether, until I was given this huge record collection with so many operas in it. 
I feel a mix of obligation and opportunity... 

One more thing about me is that I have a distaste for a "greatest hits" or "Reader's digest" approach to music. I have never used a "shuffle" function in my life. Haha. 
I might have to reconsider this stubborn stance, at least for a while. There are quite a few albums here featuring singers, for instance, so I could go that route for a while... 

Haha, bit of an understatement in the libretto, here: Early in Don Carlo, Act III - part 2: 
"During the remainder of this chorus individual parts overlap considerably"
I'm enjoying this. Thanks, everybody.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Ooh. The Grand Inquisitor!
I wasn't expecting that!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Is the ridiculous acting so compensating?


yes! plus I really love the aria sung without any consonants at all


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you, Aramis (and the rest of you) for indulging me. 
Today, I played through an entire opera and enjoyed it. 
A bit exhausted, I have to admit, but it was a good experience. 
Uncharacteristcally for me, I haven't put on any music at all after it. 
Enjoying the silence, I guess. Processing. Making sense of it. 

Thanks.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Do you have any Benjamin Britten in your collection? Obviously the musical idiom is different, but dramatically these operas work extremely well - I can recommend The turn of the Screw, Peter Grimes and Billy Budd for starters.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Sadly, the guy who collected all this seems to have had very little time for the more modern composers. There are a few Britten titles (including the very cool Culshaw recording of The Burning Fiery Furnace), but none of the operas. Nor the War Requiem.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Here are my suggestions based on my own experience. Use what works for you, if anything.
1. Both of your big moments with opera were at live performance. Spoken recordings of Shakespeare bore me to death, but I would do nearly anything to see a good performance of his work. (Reading is somewhere in the middle.) Some things are meant to be experienced in the theatre, and opera is one of them. Perhaps you aren't the kind of person who will ever enjoy opera recordings.

2. The suggestion of finding a specific singer who you like and following them is fantastic. There's a personal quality to the voice that will enrich the experience of a beginner. It's like meeting a really interesting new friend.

3. Opera isn't about the plot, but the words are sometimes wonderful. Singing along (at whatever volume is comfortable for you) can help you feel the emotion of the text and music much more powerfully. Try learning some text.
Operatic music is an enormous magnifying glass trained on the human heart. Don't focus on what they're doing, but what they're feeling.

4. Figure out which language is most pleasing to your ear, and find operas in that language. (Of course, the styles will be different) Some people will never get past certain language barriers. Find out what yours are.

5. Listen at night, alone, and at the maximum volume possible. Opera takes place in a Romantic world of darkness, and it can help to get into it if those conditions exist around you.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Excellent post, thank you very much. 
*takes a bow*


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Vinyl said:


> *takes a bow*


Don't forget the quiver.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If you need more help, let me know.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks, but I took a plunge on my own risk, and am enjoying Berlioz' La Damnation de Faust as we speak. 
The recording is from the Colin Davis Berlioz Cycle on Philips. 
Veasey, Gedda, Bastin and Van Allan. LSO. 1973

I am developing quite a liking for Colin Davis' Berlioz. Both this and the 'sacred music' are incredibly dynamic, and the sound quality on the Philips records is unputdownable. 
I'm starting to think I prefer them to the more 'famous' Decca records. Less soundstage antics, more actual *sound* engineering. It's no mean accomplishment to capture the dynamic range of this music this well. 

I'll be back asking for advice on Baroque opera soon enough - I know I have a limit for these huge romantic works, but I'm just going to enjoy it while it lasts.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Vinyl said:


> Thanks, but I took a plunge on my own risk, and am enjoying Berlioz' La Damnation de Faust as we speak.
> The recording is from the Colin Davis Berlioz Cycle on Philips.
> Veasey, Gedda, Bastin and Van Allan. LSO. 1973
> 
> ...


Is L'Enfance du Christ in your collection? I expect Davis/LSO did it well, though my 'go-to' is a Cluytens recording. Some fine music in there.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Ukko said:


> Is L'Enfance du Christ in your collection? I expect Davis/LSO did it well, though my 'go-to' is a Cluytens recording. Some fine music in there.


Yes it is. I have absolutely no motivation to look for a different recording either. Magnificent music, played and sung remarkably well, and the same comments on Philips records as above. I will most likely listen through it once more very soon.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

I have to admit - when I saw the title of this thread, I thought Vinyl was looking for singing lessons.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

I could probably use some, but I'll spare the world...
I saw that the title was rather misunderstandable after I posted the thing.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Vinyl said:


> I am developing quite a liking for Colin Davis' Berlioz. Both this and the 'sacred music' are incredibly dynamic, and the sound quality on the Philips records is unputdownable.
> I'm starting to think I prefer them to the more 'famous' Decca records. Less soundstage antics, more actual *sound* engineering. It's no mean accomplishment to capture the dynamic range of this music this well.


If you have Berlioz' _Benvenuto Cellini_ with Davis on Phillips, you may want to try it as well. Gedda was getting a bit crusty in his sound at times by the time it was recorded, but he still has some amazing high notes and is always one of the most intelligent singers you can find. The opera is great fun, and includes a hilarious scene towards the beginning where Theresa and Cellini are insulting Cellini's rival, who happens to be hiding behind a sofa.

And if you're enjoying the Romantics, there's nobody more romantic than Puccini. If you have any of his operas in that collection, that's the area where I feel most qualified to give advice!



> Excellent post, thank you very much.


You're welcome. And thank _you _for the kind words.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> And if you're enjoying the Romantics, there's nobody more romantic than Puccini


Puccini isn't romantic at all.

Just saying.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Puccini isn't romantic at all.
> 
> Just saying.


He isn't a Romantic, but I find some of his music to be among the most romantic that there is.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Vinyl said:


> I'll be back asking for advice on Baroque opera soon enough - I know I have a limit for these huge romantic works, but I'm just going to enjoy it while it lasts.


I can definitely relate to that. I have to listen to Baroque opera fairly regularly to cleanse my palate. There's a thought, Baroque opera = lime sorbet.

Although I find Britten does the job too.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

The over-the-top HIP Johannes-Passion I'm listening to now should do the trick, I think. After 5 sides of period instruments and boy sopranos and altos I'll be ready for some proper female coloratura.

edit: I won't be seeking out recordings with [name of tenor withheld with respect] on. Not up to my standards, like hitting at least 50% of the notes.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

It's time to sample some more opera from the shelves.
I can take a hint, so I'm choosing myself this time. No asking for advice or recommendations. 

I have a vast number of box sets of Händel's works, and I consulted the collective wisdom that is the TC Top 272 recommended operas. Händel is represented already at number four, and my version of Giulio Cesare is a 1970 Deutsche Grammophone recording. Directed by Karl Richter, and Fischer-Diskau is on there, too. I assume it's not the *worst* Cesare? 
Doesn't really matter. It's the one I have, and I'm jumping in on the deep end with the intention to listen to all 8 sides in one session. 

Wish me luck, and feel free to comment on my choice... 

In particular, what are your thoughts on a tenor where the music calls for a Castrato? Should Caesar be sung by a mezzo-soprano or perhaps a contratenor?


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Tutto può donna vezzosa. 

*sigh*


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Vinyl said:


> It's time to sample some more opera from the shelves.
> I can take a hint, so I'm choosing myself this time. No asking for advice or recommendations.
> 
> I have a vast number of box sets of Händel's works, and I consulted the collective wisdom that is the TC Top 272 recommended operas. Händel is represented already at number four, and my version of Giulio Cesare is a 1970 Deutsche Grammophone recording. Directed by Karl Richter, and Fischer-Diskau is on there, too. I assume it's not the *worst* Cesare?
> ...


Sorry, but I don't like Handel with the music transposed, and I prefer more recent HIP type recordings. The sound balance is just wrong with a baritone in the title role. Give me mezzo, preferably Marie-Nicole Lemieux or Sarah Connolly, or a countertenor like Andreas Scholl.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Today I stumbled over a web site dedicated to recordings, and this guy's choice for Finest Opera Album was as this:

(from http://www.high-endaudio.com/SR-DIVINITY.html#OPERA)
"MASSENET-DON QUICHOTTE-GHIAUROV/KORD-LONDON OSA 13134/DECCA D 156 D3
This is the finest opera recording (sonically) I have ever heard. It has a unique combination of body, power, purity, naturalness and immediacy. This is especially true of the bass voice. The orchestra and space are also superbly recorded, and it retains its sonic strengths at high volumes. One section, at the very beginning, sounds like you are actually located in a opera house, because of its phenomenal illusion of depth."

I happened to have it here, and I thought it couldn't hurt to play the finest opera album ever released?

The sound is indeed beautiful, and the music is quite pleasing as well. I have read and thoroughly enjoyed the book, so I am familiar with the story. All in all an awesome way to spend an afternoon.

Wow. The sound really is something!


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Today's opera is chosen based on Mezzo-soprano, composer and conductor, in that order. 
Berlioz' Beatrice & Benedict, LSO, Colin Davis, L'Oiseau-Lyre (Decca) 1963.
I was looking for Josephine Veasey, so the Berlioz/Davis combi is serendipitous.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Colin Davis is not to blame, he has obviously instructed the orchestra both on the sudden dynamics and timing that I was raving about on the later Philips-records, but I'm not getting the same effect here. Bit to hard on those valve compressors, Decca? 

I also made the repeat error of not checking the side numbering, so by simply flipping the record with Side 1 on it, I ended up playing Side 4. Annoying. I will try no to do it again, but this is the fourth time. 

I have moved on to La Tosca, another Decca recording. Details later. I'm enjoying this...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Apologies Vinyl for not contributing to your thread before now.

Every opera fan's journey is unique and no method of learning and enjoying is any better than another. I can honestly say that finding TC and getting to know the non-judgemental and helpful opera fans on here has been the main reason I now love the genre so much. They taught me that my taste is as valid as the next person's and that's why I rarely _recommend_ a composer/opera/singer. I just say what I like.

Like member _rgz_ I started with a liking for a particular singer (José Carreras). I bought up anything & everything he did and branched out from there.

I noticed that you have a recording of Britten's _The Burning Fiery Furnace_. I saw this performed last year and it was great fun. There are a couple of grainy YouTubes of when it was first performed in 1968.

[clicky] - documentary

[clicky] - complete performance

Good luck with your journey of exploration!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Vinyl said:


> Today I stumbled over a web site dedicated to recordings, and this guy's choice for Finest Opera Album was as this:
> 
> (from http://www.high-endaudio.com/SR-DIVINITY.html#OPERA)
> "MASSENET-DON QUICHOTTE-GHIAUROV/KORD-LONDON OSA 13134/DECCA D 156 D3
> ...




I have this recording & agree with you. I love this opera and got ever so slightly obsessed with it a couple of years ago. To the point of getting up at 03:00 to hear it live from Seattle Opera.

Canadian Opera Company are staging the SO production in May and I would kill to go. Sadly, lack of time and money preventing me from going.


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## Vinyl (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you, Sospiro!

I had already seen the documentary - what an historical treasure that is!
I have dabbled in sound engineering, so it was pure porn. 

I hadn't seen the performance, so I wil do that. 

Today is a busy day, might not have time for a full opera, perhaps the Fiery Furnace is just right. 

T


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## rbcycle (May 26, 2014)

thank you vinyl, for starting this thread.

this is my first post, and i hope i'm not digging back too far.

living in a city where many well kept and now abandoned opera sets are cheaply available at the various goodwills
and thrift stores, i've been looking on various sites to see what the knowledgeable have to say about what i've
picked up and what i've passed over. the opera lovers kept such good care of their records and accompanying booklets, sometimes inserting playbills from live performances. so sad that there was no one to keep them on as heirlooms,
although fortunate for me.

earlier in life i found opera too over the top for my tastes and ignored it. later i found myself thirsty for more after
hearing baroque opera and the period instrumental playing that went along with it.
first the live performance of les indes galantes under christie with patricia petibon, and then hearing hana blazikova as mary magdalena in caldera had me hooked.
but all of these wonderful looking victoria de los angeles albums at the thrift store... i had to pick them up. so now i'm onto the standard [?] romantic opera repertoire which i had always found too...romantic, and i'm finding that i've passed over a lot of great music.
so, if anyone feels like continuing this thread, my cats and i would really appreciate it.

i've been on some of the music sites as bzzz, in case you think you might recognize me.

good listening,
rb


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I assumed this was about singing lessons too. Sorry to have missed such a conversation. I echo the thoughts above from rbcycle.

Like _vinyl_ I have accumulated a sizeable opera vinyl collection. It's not my fault they seem to come up as job lots, or that people keep giving them to me! I play them constantly, and seldom play CDs.

Vinyl, I think you're doing fine as you are if you're finding operas that move you. Best advice I can give to anybody wanting to listen to opera on LP is find a favourite side of vinyl and PLAY IT LOUD!

Currently listening to... Gounod's Faust (Sir Colin Davis, Kiri te Kanawa). 1986.


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