# Russian Nineteenth-Century Orchestral Composers: Lists of Favorites



## Roger Knox

Similar threads to this one have appeared on TalkClassical, mostly in the form of polls. Two things prompted my choice of this topic: (1) having led a thread on Glazunov's symphonic poems and comparable works, I wanted to compare the works of other Russian nineteenth-century orchestral composers; (2) also for comparison, the topic is similar in concept to much more detailed threads I've initiated in the past on Neglected German/Austrian and Unheralded French nineteenth-century orchestral composers. I haven't, however, listened yet to all of the relevant works by these Russian composers.

On these chronological lists are Russian composers active mainly in the nineteenth century who wrote orchestral and/or concertante music. I haven't included composers from countries other than Russia that were later part of the Soviet Union. There are three lists: Most Favored Composers; Favored Composers; Composers Worth Consideration. This time, whether composers were considered neglected or unheralded was not a factor in the selection.

Please post comments and discussion on any of these composers. I'll be sure to reply and add information as appropriate. Good luck!

Most Favored Composers: *P. Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff*

Favored Composers: *Glinka, Balakirev, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Taneyev*

Composers Worth Consideration: *Serov, A. Rubinstein, Cui, Liadov, Lyapunov, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Arensky, Kalinnikov*


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## mbhaub

This is the music that really got me hooked on the classics. The Most Favored of course need no support, but there's on Worth Consideration that I want to single out: Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov. If you look at concert programs prior to around 1960, one work of his, Caucasian Sketches, was ubiquitous. Then, inexplicably, except for the popular last movement, The Procession of the Sardar, it fell out of favor. Now, even that final march is rarely played. The work may not be some earth-shattering, profound masterpiece, but is quite enjoyable, skillfully written, beautifully scored. It used to be recorded with some regularity: Rodzinski, Scherchen, Abravanel all did it. Bernstein, Ormandy, Fiedler did the Procession. But in the past 40 years of the CD era, only Marco Polo (Naxos) Chandos and ASV have done it With lesser-known orchestras and conductors. It's too bad, because the music is right there in the Russian Nationalist mainstream style with the "Orientalisms" that is so attractive in Rimsky-Korsakov and Balakirev. Ok, I know that it's never going to become a staple of the New York Philharmonic or Cleveland or Chicago or Berlin orchestras. But it's even vanished from the repertoire of amateur and semi-pro orchestras which really need to play music that isn't as challenging as Scheherazade.

Ippolitov-Ivanov wrote a great deal of other music. A second Caucasian suite, the Turkish Fragments, a symphony (ok, it's pretty weak) and some gorgeous choral music, the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Vespers. Deeply, profoundly moving music.

Conductor Dimitri Mitropoulos told a touching story: after concert in Minneapolis which ended with the Borodin 2nd, a shabbily dressed, elderly man came up to him and thank him for playing "his friends" symphony, which he hadn't heard in a long time but happened to be at the premiere of it many years ago. Mitropoulos was taken aback, and was shocked when the man introduced himself as Ippolitov-Ivanov who had by then fled the Soviet Union and somehow wound up in Minnesota for that concert. 

There is so much of his music that hasn't been performed, much less recorded. He's one composer who really needs advocacy so maybe we can hear some of his chamber music, any of the operas, the film music and so much more.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Conductor Dimitri Mitropoulos told a touching story: after concert in Minneapolis which ended with the Borodin 2nd, a shabbily dressed, elderly man came up to him and thank him for playing "his friends" symphony, which he hadn't heard in a long time but happened to be at the premiere of it many years ago. Mitropoulos was taken aback, and was shocked when the man introduced himself as Ippolitov-Ivanov who had by then fled the Soviet Union and somehow wound up in Minnesota for that concert.
> 
> There is so much of his music that hasn't been performed, much less recorded. He's one composer who really needs advocacy so maybe we can hear some of his chamber music, any of the operas, the film music and so much more.


Thank you, mhaub, for your valuable post. I don't know much of Ippolitov-Ivanov's music. Of the orchestral works I've listened to, I agree the best are the two suites of Caucasian Sketches and the Turkish Fragments. The others I've heard are: Yar Khmel: Spring Overture on Russian Folk Songs (1882), Symphonic Scherzo (1882), and Armenian Rhapsody (1895). I didn't know that he'd written a symphony. Sad that this composer-conductor who was also a sophisticated investigator into the music of several nationalities -- in particular Georgia where he was head of the Tbilisi Conservatory -- ended up in obscurity.

Also, I missed Alexander Gretchaninov for some reason and look forward to hearing his symphonies. Do you have any comments on Gretchaninov?

P.S. In the OP I mentioned "composers active mainly in the nineteenth century" but of course some were more active in the twentieth century. The actual cut-off year of birth is 1874; the late Romantic composers Gliere (b. 1875) and Medtner (b. 1880) are therefore missing, the reason being that I haven't listened to much of their music yet.


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## MusicSybarite

These 22 sum up my overall tastes regarding outstanding Russian Romantic composers:

*Tchaikovsky
Rachmaninov
Rimsky-Korsakov
Glazunov
Taneyev
Glière
Borodin
Balakirev
Arensky
Myaskovsky (to some extent)
Scriabin
Rubinstein
Mussorgsky
Glinka
N. Tcherepnin
Steinberg
Kalinnikov
Gretchaninov
Medtner
Lyapunov
Catoire
Lyadov*


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> Also, I missed Alexander Gretchaninov for some reason and look forward to hearing his symphonies. Do you have any comments on Gretchaninov?


I've picked up all of the Gretchaninov music that Chandos mercifully released. The man knew how to write for orchestra, full of color and unquestionable Russian sounding. The problem is the material is pretty thin stuff. Like so many other composers, I think he got worse as he went along. The first symphony is a delightful work; anyone who likes say Kalinnikov or Glazunov should relish it. The second is a bit weaker and then it's downhill from there, sad to say. But those first two are decent enough, enjoyable enough that they would make good selections for smaller, amateur orchestras. The problem is getting the performance materials. Some of Gretchaninovs choral work I enjoy, too. The Chandos release of Passion Week is breathtakingly beautiful. Some of the chamber music, like the string quartets on Marco Polo are interesting enough. Certainly anyone interested in Russian Nationalism should know some of his works.


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## MarkW

I've already expressed my love for Mussorgsky. Tchaikovsky (waltzes, Nutcracker, Swan Lake) was one of my early entries into CM (at 8 or 9). At about 12 I got a bargain bin LP of Caucasian Sketches for a buck or two and have always liked it, but haven't heard it for years. The few times I played Gliere on the radio, he reminded me of Broadway for some reason. Nothing by Borodin asks me to play it more frequently than every decade. Russian Easter, suite from Le Coq d'Or, and version of Boris Godunov do it for me for R-K (I overplayed Sheherazade many years ago, to its detriment). Glinka I have always heard good things about but can't say I know any of his music!


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> These 22 sum up my overall tastes regarding outstanding Russian Romantic composers:


Thank you -- I'm adding N. Tcherepnin and M. Steinberg to my Composers Worth Consideration list immediately. Is your list in order of preference? Also wondering how to deal with Myaskovsky ...

Just listened to Catoire's Piano Concerto in A-flat Major. The second movement is original and intriguing for me. In Arensky's early Piano Concerto in F Minor I also think the second movement is the best; even if the Chopin influence is pronounced he's beginning to find his voice there.


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## jim prideaux

I personally think it is worth noting that on the thread concerned with ten personal favourite symphonies Kalinnikov's 1st is mentioned more than once.

Myaskovsky.....not necessarily within the confines the initial question ( ie chronologically later) but it might be possible to argue his music does exhibit some of the attributes of Russian music this thread is concerned with....any 'excuse' to listen to the wonderfiul 27th should not be ignored!


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## mbhaub

If you want to extend it and include Myaskovsky (why not?) you also might want to consider Yevgeny Svetlanov. Not only a conductor of considerable accomplishment, but a composer worthy of attention. He made recordings of a huge amount of the Russian repertoire and there's no doubt that he picked up some pointers from the old guys along the way: his Symphony no. 1 is right there in the style and orchestral wizardry that you'll love. The copy I have was on the Russian Disk label from 30 years ago and I don't know if it's available anywhere, but look for it - his other music that he recorded is well worth your time, too.


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## Roger Knox

Jim Prideaux, I like Kalinikov too -- both symphonies in fact. Have seen Myaskowsky described as late Romantic (post-Romantic maybe?) but would have to hear more than the 1st and a couple of symphonic poems that I've listened to so far. Thanks for your recommendation of his 27th -- maybe going backwards chronologically, or perhaps mixing up the order of the symphonies, or choosing a few of the best for now, would be better strategies than 1, 2, 3, ..... 27!


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> If you want to extend it and include Myaskovsky (why not?) you also might want to consider Yevgeny Svetlanov. Not only a conductor of considerable accomplishment, but a composer worthy of attention.


I'm looking forward to listening to Svetlanov's orchestral compositions -- symphonies and symphonic poems.


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## Animal the Drummer

Roger Knox said:


> Jim Prideaux, I like Kalinikov too -- both symphonies in fact. Have seen Myaskowsky described as late Romantic (post-Romantic maybe?) but would have to hear more than the 1st and a couple of symphonic poems that I've listened to so far. Thanks for your recommendation of his 27th -- maybe going backwards chronologically, or perhaps mixing up the order of the symphonies, or choosing a few of the best for now, would be better strategies than 1, 2, 3, ..... 27!


When it comes to Kalinnikov, count me in - less of a melodist perhaps than some, but wonderful colour and atmosphere. In addition to his Symph.no.1 (no.2 doesn't get to me quite as much) I particularly like the symphonic poem "The Cedar and The Palm" and the String Serenade.


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> I'm looking forward to listening to Svetlanov's orchestral compositions -- symphonies and symphonic poems.


I was curious if you can get this. Arkiv and Amazon, nope. But there's a copy on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233953601286?hash=item3678b8a706:g:k68AAOSwo0pgaSpg


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## Andante Largo

Nobody mentioned *Karl Davydov*, whom Pyotr Tchaikovsky described as "czar of cellists". Davydov composed among others four cello concertos and transcribed and arranged Chopin's solo piano works for cello and piano accompaniment.


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## jim prideaux

Roger Knox said:


> Jim Prideaux, I like Kalinikov too -- both symphonies in fact. Have seen Myaskowsky described as late Romantic (post-Romantic maybe?) but would have to hear more than the 1st and a couple of symphonic poems that I've listened to so far. Thanks for your recommendation of his 27th -- maybe going backwards chronologically, or perhaps mixing up the order of the symphonies, or choosing a few of the best for now, would be better strategies than 1, 2, 3, ..... 27!


I would interested to know what you make of the 27th. That is my own personal favourite but I would advise against discounting the others as they are all really worth listening to.

Might I also suggest (for example) 21,24 and 25 (if my memory serves me right)

Unlike many 'critics' I also really enjoy the symphonies of Glazunov (particularly 4-7) and am frequently amazed at how dismissive some of the descriptions of these works can be.


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## Roger Knox

*A Brief Aside*

As with previous threads on German and French orchestral music, I'm keeping late romantic composers separate from modernist ones. I like both periods of music and have spent a lot of time with the music of each type. When I came to TalkClassical there was a lot of friction between partisans of one versus the other. I was hoping that with this separation the threads wouldn't be derailed by animosity between them -- fortunately they weren't. And now there's less conflict on TC.

But the larger issue to me is that the "break" at the turn of the 19-20th centuries is more profound and thoroughgoing than those between other eras. I've been influenced on this by books like _The Shock of the New_ by Robert Hughes, _Real Presences_ by George Steiner, and _Rites of Spring_ by Modris Ecksteins. I don't want to get into discussion of the different sensibilities involved; for me they need to be considered separately. Actually I wouldn't dream of doing this kind of survey with modernist composers. The music is too complex, too diverse, requiring more time with fewer compositions. And I like modernist music but with "different ears," a "different sense of motion," or a "different brain and heart," all speculative and not settled for me but this is the best I can do for the moment.

And now back to late romantic Russian orchestral composers, most definitely including Myaskovsky and Svetlanov, and maybe a few more yet to be named.


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## Animal the Drummer

jim prideaux said:


> I would interested to know what you make of the 27th. That is my own personal favourite but I would advise against discounting the others as they are all really worth listening to.
> 
> Might I also suggest (for example) 21,24 and 25 (if my memory serves me right)
> 
> Unlike many 'critics' I also really enjoy the symphonies of Glazunov (particularly 4-7) and am frequently amazed at how dismissive some of the descriptions of these works can be.


Maybe I've just heard the wrong recordings but, though I'm a fan of the Russian repertoire in general and enjoy exploring its lesser-known byways, I'm afraid I tend to find Glazunov passes me by somewhat. "The Seasons" is lovely and quite the equal of Tchaikovsky's ballets for me, but I'm still searching for a way into Glazunov apart from that.


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## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> Thank you -- I'm adding N. Tcherepnin and M. Steinberg to my Composers Worth Consideration list immediately. *Is your list in order of preference?* Also wondering how to deal with Myaskovsky ...
> 
> Just listened to Catoire's Piano Concerto in A-flat Major. The second movement is original and intriguing for me. In Arensky's early Piano Concerto in F Minor I also think the second movement is the best; even if the Chopin influence is pronounced he's beginning to find his voice there.


Sort of, at least for the first ten, albeit I could put Myaskovsky higher in my list.

Nicolai Tcherepnin could be described as late-Romantic, so are Reinhold Glière and Maximilian Steinberg. Myaskovsky, despite he was the father of the Soviet symphony, retains much romanticism in his music, hence I decided to include him, but strictly speaking, he's not a Romantic composer.


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## Roger Knox

Andante Largo said:


> Nobody mentioned *Karl Davydov*, whom Pyotr Tchaikovsky described as "czar of cellists". Davydov composed among others four cello concertos and transcribed and arranged Chopin's solo piano works for cello and piano accompaniment.


I've listened to Davydov's Cello Concerto No. 2 and found much to enjoy. It's at the cutting edge of cello technique for its time. The first movement cadenza is excellent, including a remarkable passage of high-positioned triads with melody plus fingered tremolo. The second has a lyrical solo cello melody that becomes a lovely clarinet-cello duet. The sprightliness of the finale in 6/8 time drew me in too. I'd never heard of Davydov; he reminds me a bit of composer-cellist-pedagogue Julius Klengel who I found out about only three years ago. True cellist-composers, not cellists who composed some.


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## Roger Knox

Animal the Drummer said:


> Maybe I've just heard the wrong recordings but, though I'm a fan of the Russian repertoire in general and enjoy exploring its lesser-known byways, I'm afraid I tend to find Glazunov passes me by somewhat. "The Seasons" is lovely and quite the equal of Tchaikovsky's ballets for me, but I'm still searching for a way into Glazunov apart from that.


I didn't get into Glazunov until I was over 65. Actually I think he got into me. Maybe his _m.o._ is to come when you need him -- who knows?


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## jim prideaux

Over the last few years I have encountered various examples of criticism of Glazunov. Even where comments have been more positive it can often appear reluctant. However whenever I again listen to the symphonies I am left wondering about the disparity between my experience of the music and the opinions of others.

Indeed, I am now beginning the day rather early with the 4th conducted by Neeme Jarvi and as ever finding it to be a wonderful work. I know it is essentially conservative etc and yet......

I believe Roger that I first encountered Glazunov around the age of 55. There may be something in your 'hypothesis'!


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> There is so much of his [Ippolitov-Ivanov's] music that hasn't been performed, much less recorded. He's one composer who really needs advocacy so maybe we can hear some of his chamber music, any of the operas, the film music and so much more.


Yes, I haven't so far found recordings of the following:

- On the Volga, symphonic picture, op. 50 (1904?)
- On the Steppes of Turkmenistan: Orchestral Suite No. 4, op. 65 (1935)
- Musical Paintings from Uzbekistan: Orchestral Suite No. 5, op. 69 (1935)
- Catalan Suite for orchestra, op. 79 (1932)

- Symphony No. 2 "Karelia", without Opus no. (1935)

I'm glad this thread has brought out your invaluable memories, for example the place formerly held by Ippolitov-Ivanov in the North American repertoire. I've read that Myaskovsky also was in the repertoire until after WWII. Having now listened to Ippolitov-Ivanov's _Mtsiri_: symphonic poem (1923-4); From Songs of Ossian: 3 musical pictures (1925); An Episode from the Life of Schubert (1928); and the Symphony No. 1 (1907), I have a wider view of his accomplishments. I particularly like the Symphony's Scherzo. Overall I think he was a strong and distinct composer but not a profound one. Going to add him to the list on Post #1 of Favored Composers, prompted by your comments.

Next up is Myaskovky 27, in reply to Jim Prideaux.

I've heard a number of times that Russians think we in North America hear only a narrow slice of their repertoire. Part of the reason for doing this thread was to increase the number of compositions we know. Although I thought the comment applied mainly to 20th-century composers, it's true also of a number from the 19th century where we know a composer for only 1 or 2 works out of many. And given the discussion in this thread, we also have quite a few more composers to consider than I expected!


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## Roger Knox

jim prideaux said:


> Over the last few years I have encountered various examples of criticism of Glazunov. Even where comments have been more positive it can often appear reluctant.


Criticism? TalkClassical? What on earth could you possibly be talking about?

Seriously, I think its more important to connect to other supporters than to worry about criticism. With Glazunov a lot of the criticism is of the "I'm bored -- doesn't turn my crank" variety. That kind of criticism can be hard to deal with. In Glazunov I like the orchestral texture and timbres -- more Persian carpet than cheap bathmat. Also he's an "old soul" -- a composer prodigy who from his mid-teens worked hard under Rimsky-Korsakov and developed a certain musical maturity early on.


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## HerbertNorman

The one who's blown me away recently is *Taneyev* I think his chamber music is quite exquisite

I have always been a fan of *Borodin* , *Mussorgsky* among others...

Can anybody get me going with *Lyapunov* ? I don't know his work very well, only the "Zelazowa Wola" is something I possess on CD...


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## Bulldog

Animal the Drummer said:


> Maybe I've just heard the wrong recordings but, though I'm a fan of the Russian repertoire in general and enjoy exploring its lesser-known byways, I'm afraid I tend to find Glazunov passes me by somewhat. "The Seasons" is lovely and quite the equal of Tchaikovsky's ballets for me, but I'm still searching for a way into Glazunov apart from that.


Check out his 5 novelette, op. 15 - might do the trick.


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## elgar's ghost

I've always been impressed with the orchestral and piano works of Mily Balakirev. Has anyone ever heard his early Octet for flute, oboe, horn, violin, viola, cello, bass and piano? Balakirev gave it an opus no. (no. 3) so he must have thought something of it. Sadly only the 15-minute opening movement has survived but there are performances of it on YT and I think it has been recorded.

I did once have a disc each by Steinberg and Lyapunov but neither aroused in me the desire to investigate further.


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## Roger Knox

HerbertNorman said:


> The one who's blown me away recently is *Taneyev* I think his chamber music is quite exquisite
> 
> I have always been a fan of *Borodin* , *Mussorgsky* among others...
> 
> Can anybody get me going with *Lyapunov* ? I don't know his work very well, only the "Zelazowa Wola" is something I possess on CD...


I don't know Sergei Lyapunov's work very well either. He was known at first as a pianist and composer of piano music. Before contributing to this thread I'd only heard his amazing 12 Transcendental Etudes, op. 13. Intended as a complement to Liszt's, they are in the 12 keys of Liszt's original 24-key scheme that Liszt didn't compose in.

Lyapunov's orchestral works I've heard recently are Ballade, op 2; Solemn Overture on Russian Themes, op. 7; Rhapsody on Ukrainian Themes for Piano and Orchestra, op. 28; and Hashish - symphonic poem, op. 53. Still to come for me are _Zelazowa Wola_ (symphonic poem), his symphonies, and his concertos.

If anyone else reading this thread has comments on Lyapunov please let us know.


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## mbhaub

Lyapunov's SYmphony no. 2 is worth checking out. Svetlanov's recording on Naive is as good as it will ever get. The two piano concertos on Hyperion are certainly entertaining romps and no doubt a challenge for pianists. Another composer whose music is largely forgotten.


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## Orfeo

*Alexander Dargomyzhsky* is certainly worth mentioning. A rightful heir of Glinka, Dargomyzhsky set the stage for Russian realism in music and what experts call, melodic recitative, which are featured in Rusalka and the Stone Guest. His examples influenced Mussorgsky and other Russians, and as Vladimir Jurowski argues, even Verdi (he linked the Stone Guest with Falstaff). I might even go as far as to suggest that Merikanto perhaps was influenced by him when he composed his opera "Juha", a Finnish classic.

*Felix Blumenfeld* also deserves a mention. An important composer, conductor, pianist, and teacher, his music combines Tchaikovsky's cosmopolitanism, Glazunov's urbanity, with Rachmaninoff's broodiness. He is not as melancholic or mawkish as Rachmaninoff, but his music is hardly short of depth or profundity.

*Other composers worth mentioning:
*

Vladimir Rebikov (known as an earlier exponent of whole-tone scales as with Debussy)
Sergei Bortkiewicz (a contemporary of Myaskovsky)
Konstantin Eiges
Alexander Goedicke
Osip Kozlovsky
*Given that Gliere is mentioned here, I'll list:
*

Mykola Lysenko
Mykola Leontovych
Mikhail Kalachevsky
Vladimir Sokalsky


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## mbhaub

Rebikov and Leontovych are better known than people think, especially this time of year. Rebikov wrote music for a pantomime, The Christmas Tree, and the waltz was once a pretty common work but seems to have fallen away lately. Everyone knows Leontovych: Carol of the Bells or the Ukranian Bell Carol. 

Dargomyzhsky's masterpiece, The Stone Guest, is a horror story - the same source material as Mozart's Don Giovanni. I vastly prefer the Russian's take on the story and wish it would get performed in the west. It's relatively short, too. Fits on one CD. Very entertaining.


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## Roger Knox

Thank you Jim, for recommending Nicolai Myaskovsky's 27th Symphony (1949). It is a tremendous composition, one that would grace a concert by any orchestra capable of playing it!

Among things I noticed is his excellent taste as is seen in a couple of stylistic aspects. First, he seems to be able to do anything with counterpoint without making it over-conspicuous: varied and unpredictable imitation, masterful suspensions (delayed resolutions of notes into a chord) -- for me the second movement is pretty much the gold standard there. Second, his harmony is largely modal in the pastoral sections, but from there he brings in major-minor and chromatic harmony in more intense passages, _making it all seem very natural and fitting_. Given the date of this his last symphony I expect there are allusions to the War, yet they are neither celebratory nor ironic. The Finale's march sections I receive as acknowledging the soldiers' bravery; others may hear it differently. I've now heard Myaskovsky's 1st and 27th Symphonies. If you can recommend a couple of others please do.


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## HerbertNorman

mbhaub said:


> Lyapunov's SYmphony no. 2 is worth checking out. Svetlanov's recording on Naive is as good as it will ever get. The two piano concertos on Hyperion are certainly entertaining romps and no doubt a challenge for pianists. Another composer whose music is largely forgotten.


Thanks for this! I'm going to check it out , always interesting to get to know compositions!


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## Animal the Drummer

Roger Knox said:


> I don't know Sergei Lyapunov's work very well either. He was known at first as a pianist and composer of piano music. Before contributing to this thread I'd only heard his amazing 12 Transcendental Etudes, op. 13. Intended as a complement to Liszt's, they are in the 12 keys of Liszt's original 24-key scheme that Liszt didn't compose in.
> 
> Lyapunov's orchestral works I've heard recently are Ballade, op 2; Solemn Overture on Russian Themes, op. 7; Rhapsody on Ukrainian Themes for Piano and Orchestra, op. 28; and Hashish - symphonic poem, op. 53. Still to come for me are _Zelazowa Wola_ (symphonic poem), his symphonies, and his concertos.
> 
> If anyone else reading this thread has comments on Lyapunov please let us know.


Those miscellaneous orchestral works are my favourites among his output though the symphonies, concertos and solo piano music are well worth hearing.


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## EdwardBast

Roger Knox said:


> Thank you Jim, for recommending Nicolai Myaskovsky's 27th Symphony (1949). It is a tremendous composition, one that would grace a concert by any orchestra capable of playing it!
> 
> Among things I noticed is his excellent taste as is seen in a couple of stylistic aspects. First, he seems to be able to do anything with counterpoint without making it over-conspicuous: varied and unpredictable imitation, masterful suspensions (delayed resolutions of notes into a chord) -- for me the second movement is pretty much the gold standard there. Second, his harmony is largely modal in the pastoral sections, but from there he brings in major-minor and chromatic harmony in more intense passages, _making it all seem very natural and fitting_. Given the date of this his last symphony I expect there are allusions to the War, yet they are neither celebratory nor ironic. The Finale's march sections I receive as acknowledging the soldiers' bravery; others may hear it differently. I've now heard Myaskovsky's 1st and 27th Symphonies. If you can recommend a couple of others please do.


The 21st, in a single movement, is genius. The 9th is a great early one in the dramatic, epic tradition of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff, but Svetlanov ruins it. The Downes with the BBC Phil is far better. The 17th is along similar lines. If you want to hear Myaskovsky's wild, dark experimental side, try 10 and 13. The 7th has some strangeness too. If you favor the sweet and lyrical, 5 and 8. Big one with chorus, try 6. An exciting extroverted romp, 24 - the slow movement must have been in Shostakovich's ear when he composed his 12th.


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## Roger Knox

EdwardBast said:


> The 21st, in a single movement, is genius. The 9th is a great early one in the dramatic, epic tradition of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff, but Svetlanov ruins it. The Downes with the BBC Phil is far better. The 17th is along similar lines. If you want to hear Myaskovsky's wild, dark experimental side, try 10 and 13. The 7th has some strangeness too. If you favor the sweet and lyrical, 5 and 8. Big one with chorus, try 6. An exciting extroverted romp, 24 - the slow movement must have been in Shostakovich's ear when he composed his 12th.


Edward, I'm really happy to receive your message because it suggests several possible paths to follow with this significant composer, rather than making random choices or following a pedantically chronological regime.


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## Roger Knox

It's wonderful to read all the excellent posts on this thread and realize peoples' enthusiasm for Russian 19th-century orchestral music in its many-faceted splendour. It reminds me of a time when I had a particular interest in the Russian Imperial Ballet of the late nineteenth century. Someone on a ballet discussion site warned me "not to get lost in the Imperial Ballet era as I might never get out of it!" However I did, while realizing also that it was a time that will never be repeated but can nevertheless be visited with pleasure.


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## mbhaub

Egads! You mean you've listened to Minkus? On purpose?


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## EdwardBast

For those who haven't heard, Dargomizhsky's _Stone Guest _has a scene in a whole tone scale - more than 40 years before the idea occurred to Debussy. Not saying it's a great opera, but his experimental bits were in the ears of The Five during the their formative days. They had him over for tea and musical evenings I believe.


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## mbhaub

EdwardBast said:


> For those who haven't heard, Dargomizhsky's _Stone Guest _has a scene in a whole tone scale - more than 40 years before the idea occurred to Debussy. Not saying it's a great opera...


I will: The Stone Guest is a terrific opera. Short, beautifully scored, an intelligible story, good music. I'd rather listen to it than any opera of Mozart or Verdi. A real group effort, too: Cui and Rimsky-Korsakov completed it. It's unfortunate that it is so hard to get: the DVD of it is atrocious, just godawful production. The Ermler recording is out-of-print.


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## HerbertNorman

The Lyapunov 2nd Symphony was worth it! I think the way the composition is built up , invites you to keep listening ... The Largo moderato is heavy but intruiging and worth the effort as I thought the second and third movements were compelling , very Romantic . These had a Rachmaninov feel to them tbh 
Thanks @mbhaub for the recommendation :tiphat: I thought this large work was worth the effort and it has broadened my knowledge of 19th century Russian Romantic repertoire.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Egads! You mean you've listened to Minkus? On purpose?


Actually I can't remember any of his music! It's just very danceable, as Marius Petipa demanded that it be.


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> These 22 sum up my overall tastes regarding outstanding Russian Romantic composers:
> 
> *Tchaikovsky
> Rachmaninov
> Rimsky-Korsakov
> Glazunov
> Taneyev
> Glière
> Borodin
> Balakirev
> Arensky
> Myaskovsky (to some extent)
> Scriabin
> Rubinstein
> Mussorgsky
> Glinka
> N. Tcherepnin
> Steinberg
> Kalinnikov
> Gretchaninov
> Medtner
> Lyapunov
> Catoire
> Lyadov*


The content of your top 10 is close to mine. Slight differences: where you have Glière, Arensky, and Myaskovsky, I have Scriabin, Mussorgsky and Glinka. In my listening Anton Rubinstein has been the only disappointment so far. He was a great pianist and idiomatic composer for the piano, but too often he makes the obvious, sentimental choice.

Different is at least as valuable as same in my opinion. You've added N. Tcherepnin and Steinberg, while others have included Ippolitov-Ivanov and Davydov. Also there's the list from Orfeo, with many names new to me at least, therefore new compositions and recordings to get to know.


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## Roger Knox

Animal the Drummer said:


> Those miscellaneous orchestral works are my favourites among his output though the symphonies, concertos and solo piano music are well worth hearing.


The excellent pianist Lyapunov's _Zelazowa Wola_, op. 37 (1909) is a symphonic poem in memory of Chopin that I find moving. It draws quite a bit on Chopin's piano music, particularly the _Berceuse_, creating an appropriately pensive mood.


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## Roger Knox

HerbertNorman said:


> The Lyapunov 2nd Symphony was worth it!


Having heard the Second I couldn't ignore Lyapunov's First Symphony, op. 12 in B minor, composed 30 years earlier (1887). At this time Lyapunov was influenced heavily by Balakirev. Throughout it is a convincing work that opens with a stark horn motif heralding the first theme, which is well-formed as is the appealing second one. The slow movement is especially good. It is followed by a dancelike scherzo and a finale that features the cyclic return of the work's opening. I do find the brass blatant sometimes, at least in the recording by the USSR State Symphonic Orchestra/Svetlanov (ARSM vol.1, no. 46).

I find people's reactions to Lyapunov are mixed. Some like his symphonies, others his piano music, and others his non-symphonic piano music. As a composer Lyapunov's development had to contend with his work as a pianist, conductor, teacher and researcher. Later he survived the Russian Revolution of 1917 and left the country in the year before his death. If the impression he leaves is less individualistic than that of some other composers, he nevertheless created two symphonies of stature within the 19th-century Russian symphonic canon.


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## MusicSybarite

Lyapunov's First Symphony in B minor, in my humble opinion, is rather weak and predictable. The slow movement is the one to save here. The worst first symphony by anyone??? Not sure, but I don't care either. Mind you, the Second Symphony is far better, and more epic (something I really like in music).


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## mbhaub

You're right - the first is weak, lacking strong thematic material, strong development and a sense of direction. Still, it's far from the worst First Symphony. Ippolitov-Ivanov's is weaker; the finale especially weak. The Russians had a different take on the symphony and they never mastered in the way the Germans did. To be sure, the Germans did a lot of empty note spinning and wrote plenty of dull symphonies. But I will still listen to and collect the symphonies of the Russian nationalists. Echoes of a long lost civilization and I don't want their music to be totally forgotten.


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## Roger Knox

*Reducing My Posts*

_To Posters on 19th-.c. Russian Orchestral Composers:_

Changing my mind about this thread for reasons of time, my comments about the *Most Favored Composers* and *Favored Composers* named in the original post will be few.

If you wish, please continue to post on their orchestral/concertante works here. Same for Glazunov's orchestral music in the "Making Friends with Glazunov ..." thread. And I will have more to say about Taneyev.

But my focus will be on *Composers Worth Consideration*. There are many more now than anticipated in the OP. Thanks to all for the fine contributions you've made; more are welcome.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> You're right - the first is weak, lacking strong thematic material, strong development and a sense of direction. Still, it's far from the worst First Symphony. Ippolitov-Ivanov's is weaker; the finale especially weak. The Russians had a different take on the symphony and they never mastered in the way the Germans did. To be sure, the Germans did a lot of empty note spinning and wrote plenty of dull symphonies. But I will still listen to and collect the symphonies of the Russian nationalists. Echoes of a long lost civilization and I don't want their music to be totally forgotten.


Thank you Music Sybarite and mhaub for your opinions on Lyapunov 1 -- you know this music better than I do. Will listen to it some more.


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## Roger Knox

MusicSybarite said:


> Lyapunov's First Symphony in B minor, in my humble opinion, is rather weak and predictable. The slow movement is the one to save here. The worst first symphony by anyone??? Not sure, but I don't care either. Mind you, the Second Symphony is far better, and more epic (something I really like in music).


MusicSybarite and mhaub, In response to your comments about Lyapunov 1, I still think the slow movement and scherzo hold up well, but there are flaws in the opening movement and finale. This time I listened to the Moscow SSO/Fedor Gluschenko recording on Olympia, which I much prefer to the Svetlanov-conducted versions. The orchestra is more balanced, including the brass, and the overall sound quality is much better. But I now think that Lyapunov overworks the initial horn motif in the first movement. He is ingenious in generating of other material from it, and I like his variations in orchestration and texture. But there is blatancy in the use of this motif. Its pattern suggests bells. Combined with the fate-associated B minor key where the movement stays for too long, the whole becomes excessive. Them, unwisely following the cyclic principle, Lyapunov brings first movement music back in the finale. I don't feel these problems ruin the work but they do detract from it.


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## Roger Knox

From this Sunday, December 19, I'm taking a 2-month leave of absence from TalkClassical because of other commitments. I'd like to provide a suggestion for continuing while I'm away.

Most of the late romantic Russian orchestral & concertante composers born before 1850 are in the categories Most Favored Composers and Favored Composers discussed above.

I have two lists of composers born between 1850-1899: one for 1850-74 and the other for 1875-99 (the latter to be added soon).The number of composers and compositions is far greater than anticipated. There is a certain irony here. Somewhere I mentioned people from Russia commenting that we only hear a small part of Russian 19th-century repertoire. A partial reason for this thread is to find and listen to some of this music. But be careful what you ask for, you might get it (!) ... . Anyway, my suggestion for while I'm away is for you to discuss composers from the list below as you wish. Some we have talked about quite a bit, others not at all:

*Late romantic Russian orchestral & concertante composers born 1850-74:*

Anatoly Liadov (1855-1914)
Sergei Taneyev (1856-1915) 
Sergei Lyapunov (1859-1924)
Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov (1859-1935)
Gyorgy Catoire (1861-1926)
Anton Arensky (1861-1906)
Felix Blumenfeld (1863-1931) 
Vladimir Sokalsky (1863-1919)
Alexandre Gretchaninoff (1864-1956)
Aleksandr Glazunov (1865-1937)
Vassily Kalinnikov (1866-1901)
Vladimir Rebikov (1866-1920)
Julius Conus (1869-1942)
Alexander Scriabin (1872-1914)
Sergei Rachmaninoff (1873-1943)
Nicolai Tcherepnin (1873-1945)


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## Roger Knox

(revised) Late romantic Russian orchestral & concertante composers born 1850-74: *Composers Worth Considering*

*Composers Worth Considering* means specifically: (1) composers whose orchestral or concertante music you would consider buying on record/audio file or hearing in concert; (2) composers whose music you would recommend to someone for listening. I have decided not to include composers clearly more identified with Ukraine (e.g. Sokalsky). Please post your comments about this list, particularly re composers who have not been posted on previously in this thread. Also, any composer(s) you would recommend for the *Favored Composers* or *Most Favored Composers* lists, and any you would like to see added to or deleted from this list.

*Composers Worth Considering born 1850-74*

Anatoly Liadov (1855-1914)
Sergei Lyapunov (1859-1924)
Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov (1859-1935)
Gyorgy Catoire (1861-1926)
Anton Arensky (1861-1906)
Felix Blumenfeld (1863-1931)
Alexandre Gretchaninoff (1864-1956)
Vassily Kalinnikov (1866-1901)
Vladimir Rebikov (1866-1920)
Julius Conus (1869-1942)
Nikolai Tcherepnin (1873-1945)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(new) Late romantic Russian orchestral & concertante composers born 1875-99: *Composers Worth Considering*

*Composers Worth Considering* means specifically: (1) composers whose orchestral or concertante music you would consider buying on record/audio file or hearing in concert; (2) composers whose music you would recommend to someone for listening. I have decided not to include composers clearly more identified with Ukraine (e.g. Bortkiewicz). Please post your comments about this list, particularly re composers who have not been posted on previously in this thread. Also, any composer(s) you would recommend for the *Favored Composers* or *Most Favored Composers* lists, and any you would like to see added to or deleted from this list.

*Composers Worth Considering born 1875-99*

Reinhold Glière (1875-1956)
Alexander Goedicke (1877-1957) 
Nicolai Medtner (1880-1951) 
Nicolai Myaskovsky (1881-1950) 
Maximilian Steinberg (1883-1946)
Mikhail Gnessin (1883-1957)
Issay Dobrowen (1891-1953)

Best wishes to everyone for safe and happy holiday season! I will be back on TC in mid-February.


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## Roger Knox

jim prideaux said:


> Over the last few years I have encountered various examples of criticism of Glazunov. Even where comments have been more positive it can often appear reluctant. However whenever I again listen to the symphonies I am left wondering about the disparity between my experience of the music and the opinions of others.
> 
> Indeed, I am now beginning the day rather early with the 4th conducted by Neeme Jarvi and as ever finding it to be a wonderful work. I know it is essentially conservative etc and yet......
> 
> I believe Roger that I first encountered Glazunov around the age of 55. There may be something in your 'hypothesis'!


I finally got around to listening to Glazunov 7 and it's made my day. I don't know any piece like the exhilarating finale -- the apotheosis of wind and brass double-tonguing? most energetic pastoral music ever?


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## Roger Knox

Still taking a break from TalkClassical till mid-February but my ears have been busy, now focused on late romantic Russian symphonies rather than symphonic poems. In the OP, *Most Favored Composers* are: P. Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, Scriabin, & Rachmaninoff. Having listened to nearly all of their symphonies, that opinion hasn't changed -- rather the opposite:

- enjoying Tchaikovsky's first three symphonies more now, not only Nos. 4-6 and Manfred 
- like Rimsky-Korsakov's three too, especially No. 2 "Antar" (though Rimsky eventually thought it a suite)
- Glazunov's Nos. 1-7 are a joy with only 8 and 9 to go; for me Glazunov belongs with the best
- Scriabin and Rachmaninoff also belong with the best, particularly as this thread includes concertos too

With the *Favored Composers* and *Composers Worth Considering* it's a different story. I see some problems with both the original lists and the revised lists above. Comments are welcome.


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## mbhaub

Of the Composers Worth Considering: for my taste and ears, only Gliere ticks the Russian box completely. I simply love the 3rd symphony, but I know a lot of people can't stand it and think it's highly overrated. His ballet The Red Poppy is terrific, too. If you enjoy the Glazunov ballets, this is a sure fire winner. Gliere wrote a lot of bombastic dreck, too. The 2nd symphony for example.

Max Steinberg: the first two symphonies are very much in the Rimsky-Korsakov/Tchaikovsky school. Very Russian and nothing ground breaking. There's a reason Neeme Jarvi only recorded 1 and 2: they go downhill rapidly afterwards. The 5th - written in the Soviet style - is pretty awful. Hard to believe it's same composer.

A lot of people rave about Myaskovsky. I don't. The only symphonies I like enough to recommend are 6 and 21. The rest are very professionally written, not very individual and hardly "Russian". That's how I feel about Medtner and the rest: it's all very nice, but I miss the color that The Five brought to the show.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Of the Composers Worth Considering: for my taste and ears, only Gliere ticks the Russian box completely. ...


Thanks for your suggestions -- a welcome reality check. Some compositions are impressive the first time but never again. I think the Gliere 3rd is great too, but also that it needs cuts. Of the same opinion as you re Steinberg. I've decided to put Conus, Goedicke, Medtner and Dobrowen in a "specialized " category of composers known for concertos. Rebikov doesn't apply, and still thinking about Myaskovsky ...


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## HerbertNorman

Roger Knox said:


> Thanks for your suggestions -- a welcome reality check. Some compositions are impressive the first time but never again. I think the Gliere 3rd is great too, but also that it needs cuts. Of the same opinion as you re Steinberg. I've decided to put Conus, Goedicke, Medtner and Dobrowen in a "specialized " category of composers known for concertos. Rebikov doesn't apply, and still thinking about Myaskovsky ...


I must say I ike the Myaskovsky Cello Concerto , along with a few of the symphonies (6 , 10 , 21) and the symphonic poems Alastor and Silence are worth a listen too imho. The Gliere third is known to me too and I quite like it. I have to say Steinberg is an unknown to me...
I saw Arensky was mentioned too... In my opinion he is more a composer worth listening to for his chamber music and not the orchestral music... His orchestral works don't have that much to offer I feel , if you compare them to his string quartets, the piano quintet and the delightful Piano Trio


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## DeepR

I find Gliere's second symphony quite enjoyable. I have yet to listen to the third.
But the piece I really love is his symphonic poem The Sirens. 
It's quite similar in atmosphere to Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead, another wonderful work, written in the same year (1908). Then there's of course Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy, which is on another level entirely, also written in 1908. That sure was a great year for Russian symphonic poems!


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## MusicSybarite

DeepR said:


> I find Gliere's second symphony quite enjoyable. *I have yet to listen to the third*


What are you waiting for ?


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## Roger Knox

I agree with DeepR's recommendation of Glière's _The Sirens_, and also like the first two Glière symphonies. Certainly MusicSybarite's comment about the Third Symphony - "Ilya Muramets" I support. This work is something else -- a program symphony for expanded orchestra with many stunning passages. There are recordings with widely differing timings, ranging from the WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln/Neeme Järvi original at c. 120 minutes to the heavily cut Houston Symphony/Stokowski arrangement at c. 38 minutes! I did find the original version to have some repeats and clicked on fast-forward at one point, but must say that there are different opinions about the cuts. If anyone has more knowledge or opinions about the Glière Third please post - we could use some help here.


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## hammeredklavier

(1,249,609 views)


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> If anyone has more knowledge or opinions about the Glière Third please post - we could use some help here.


What help is needed? Ilya Murometz is just a long romp of Russian romanticism at its highest. Yes, it has some tedious and repetitive sections. It's too bad that Gliere didn't ever go back and create a shortened versions and even reduce the orchestration somewhat to make performances much easier and likely. It's a work that I've collected so many versions but still am looking for that Gold Standard. As good as Downes/Chandos, Falletta/Naxos, and maybe Botstein/Telarc are, the blockbuster, no-holds-barred, super Surround Sound UNCUT recording still hasn't happened. The Farberman/Unicorn sure had great sound, but the s-l-o-w tempos and some really rough playing in the brass knock it out of contention. The cut versions almost always cut some of my favorite parts such as the grotesque contrabassoon solo in the third movement. If only Ormandy hadn't made that cut his version could have been a real winner. It is interesting to see how conductors came up with their cuts, but one recording that makes the most sense is an old one, in great sound (Dolby Surround if you can decode it) and that's Yoav Talmi with the San Diego Symphony. Very exciting performance. What we need is a young, hot-shot conductor to play the thing for all it's worth. I'd even take a Blu Ray version.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> What help is needed?


Your post is very helpful. Beyond this, funding is needed for a new recording!


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## Roger Knox

*Alexander Grechaninov* (1864-1956) came from a less sophisticated background than many of his contemporaries, but he was well-grounded in Russian folk-song and in the music of the Russian Orthodox Church. His five symphonies are beautifully orchestrated, especially for woodwinds, and have a straightforward appeal that differs from the more emotionally extreme symphonies of some other Russian composers. No. 1 (1894) adheres to the standard four-movement plan, with themes of Russian character and orchestration showing the influence of the composer's teacher Rimsky-Korsakov. The slow movement melody is extended well - like a chant perhaps. The rousing finale ends cheerfully. The Symphony No. 2 "Pastoral" (1909) has folk-like melody and an overall feeling of nature, the woodwinds suggesting birds. In the scherzo striking string and woodwind textures are a highlight, contrasting with a simple trio with successive solos for wind instruments.

In an earlier post mhaub commented on the thinness of Grechaninov's material and on a general decline in the quality of his symphonies, particularly after No. 2. I agree that Nos. 4 and 5 are not as good as the earlier ones. Symphony No. 3 (1923) continues the pastoral type of No. 2 with instrumental color that I like. The prominence of the flute in the first movement announces the birdcall tendency, which becomes insistent in several woodwind instruments during the second movement scherzo. The trio features a piccolo solo, the brass entering with a mysterious, menacing three-note motif. The succeeding slow movement is a theme and variations that adds stylistic variety, till the finale storms in and then settles down with a joyful ending. Symphony No. 4 (1924) brings in references to the nineteenth century theatrical and specifically ballet worlds that come across as old-fashioned for the 1920's. Likewise with the march-like themes and sentimental or banal passages in No. 5 (1936), written after Grechaninov had moved to France. There are some shorter orchestral pieces from the 1940's that have not been recorded. But I shall leave Grechaninov now, and later will make a more positive observation in a post on his concertos and concertante works.


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## Roger Knox

Hammeredklavier, we will get to the Kalinnikov symphonies. First I need to make some replies to previous posts. Kalinnikov is a popular request and I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.


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## Roger Knox

Despite the tragic death of *Vasily Kalinnikov* (1866-1901) from tuberculosis his life and music are inspiring. He worked hard to support himself on the way up in the music profession, and his compositions' quality won the support of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. About his much-celebrated First Symphony (1894-95) I will make just two comments. There was much interest then in high-pitched timbre combinations of harp, celeste, flute, violin, or other instruments. Kalinnikov's slow movement opens with the haunting timbre of harp and violin in a two-note ostinato behind exquisite woodwind solos. And the finale ends with combined folk-like themes from the previous movements in a whirling dance. The Second Symphony (1897) continues with the techniques of motivic variation and combination. For example the opening's three-note motif turns into rapid triplets in the scherzo, which becomes increasingly march-like as instruments are added and finally builds to a peak with brilliant brass.

Kalinnikov's musical imagination was accompanied by literary perceptiveness. His incidental music for Alexey Tolstoy's play _Tsar Boris_; his _Bylina_ Overture (c. 1892) based on an old epic poem; _The Nymphs_ (1889) symphonic picture inspired by a late poem-in-prose by Turgenev (actually about the death of the Greek god Pan); and another symphonic picture _The Cedar and the Palm_ (1898) after a text by Heine all show a fresh and original mind. Kalinnikov will join my Favored Composers list with Balakirev, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Ippolitov-Ivanov, and others.


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> Kalinnikov will join my Favored Composers list with Balakirev, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Ippolitov-Ivanov, and others.


If you like those composers (! sure do!) there's another who is quit obscure but well worth seeking out: Alexander Sergeievich Taneyev (1850-1918). This isn't the well-known Taneyev, but his uncle. The only music of his I've heard is on a Marco Polo disc from 1988. It has the Symphony no. 2 and Suite no.2. Both are in the Russian National mold and are thoroughly enjoyable for what they are. The symphony in particular doesn't ramble on.


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## Animal the Drummer

Roger Knox said:


> Despite the tragic death of *Vasily Kalinnikov* (1866-1901) from tuberculosis his life and music are inspiring. He worked hard to support himself on the way up in the music profession, and his compositions' quality won the support of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. About his much-celebrated First Symphony (1894-95) I will make just two comments. There was much interest then in high-pitched timbre combinations of harp, celeste, flute, violin, or other instruments. Kalinnikov's slow movement opens with the haunting timbre of harp and violin in a two-note ostinato behind exquisite woodwind solos. And the finale ends with combined folk-like themes from the previous movements in a whirling dance. The Second Symphony (1897) continues with the techniques of motivic variation and combination. For example the opening's three-note motif turns into rapid triplets in the scherzo, which becomes increasingly march-like as instruments are added and finally builds to a peak with brilliant brass.
> 
> Kalinnikov's musical imagination was accompanied by literary perceptiveness. His incidental music for Alexey Tolstoy's play _Tsar Boris_; his _Bylina_ Overture (c. 1892) based on an old epic poem; _The Nymphs_ (1889) symphonic picture inspired by a late poem-in-prose by Turgenev (actually about the death of the Greek god Pan); and another symphonic picture _The Cedar and the Palm_ (1898) after a text by Heine all show a fresh and original mind. Kalinnikov will join my Favored Composers list with Balakirev, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Ippolitov-Ivanov, and others.


Please allow me to join you in the Kalinnikov fan club. His First Symphony, "The Cedar and the Palm" and one-movement Serenade for Strings are particular favourites of mine, but all his music repays attention. He is perhaps a less noteworthy (no pun intended) melodist than one or two of his compatriots but for my money his command of atmosphere and orchestral colour is second to none.


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## Nawdry

Roger Knox said:


> Russian Nineteenth-Century Orchestral Composers: Lists of Favorites


Top of my own list: Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Borodin, Glinka


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## Roger Knox

All fine choices. Soon to come -- an interesting take on certain earlier 19th-century composers: Glinka, Dargomyzhsky, Rubinstein, & Balakirev.


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## Roger Knox

The career of *Reinhold Glière* (1875-1956) began during the Russian Empire and continued under the Soviet regime. His Symphony No. 1 (1900) impresses from the beginning with its sense of natural flow and assured motivic compositional technique. I especially like the scherzo in 5/4 meter with strings and winds in perpetual motion. The opening of the slow movement is solemn with an attractive folk-like theme later on. The finale includes minor-key thematic development before lightening up near the close. _The Sirens_ (1904-8) is a symphonic poem that shows Gliere's ability with complex textures and orchestration. Symphony No. 2 (1908) was commissioned by Serge Koussevitsky who conducted it in Berlin. The heavy tread of its opening and the rapid triple-tonguing of the trumpets in the finale suggest war to me (as does the Third Symphony - "Ilya Muromets.") Again the scherzo is excellent, with its sweeping violin melody in the middle section, while the unexpected theme and variations movement that follows is notable for woodwind effects and lively dances.

The Third Symphony (1909-11) has already received quite a bit of commentary on this thread. I'll add that it is based on a medieval story about a hero of the Rus' people when they were centered at Kiev -- Ilya Muromets. (Glière was born in Ukraine). The hero is granted the status of _bogatyr_, a leader with uncanny strength, and a number of adventures follow … but just listen to it.


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## Roger Knox

Animal the Drummer said:


> Please allow me to join you in the Kalinnikov fan club. His First Symphony, "The Cedar and the Palm" and one-movement Serenade for Strings are particular favourites of mine, but all his music repays attention. He is perhaps a less noteworthy (no pun intended) melodist than one or two of his compatriots but for my money his command of atmosphere and orchestral colour is second to none.


Welcome, indeed. I'm fairly new to Vasily Kalinnikov's music and am happily surprised to see that he's the Russian orchestral composer who receives the most enthusiasm and support here.


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## MusicSybarite

Roger Knox said:


> I agree with DeepR's recommendation of Glière's _The Sirens_, and also like the first two Glière symphonies. Certainly MusicSybarite's comment about the Third Symphony - "Ilya Muramets" I support. This work is something else -- a program symphony for expanded orchestra with many stunning passages. There are recordings with widely differing timings, ranging from *the WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln/Neeme Järvi original at c. 120 minutes* to the heavily cut Houston Symphony/Stokowski arrangement at c. 38 minutes! I did find the original version to have some repeats and clicked on fast-forward at one point, but must say that there are different opinions about the cuts. If anyone has more knowledge or opinions about the Glière Third please post - we could use some help here.


I consider that this epic symphony works better without cuts. I don't have any problem with the length of the piece. I love it!

BTW, I have never heard that Järvi performance. Is it on CD? The longest performance I've heard of this work is with Farberman and the Royal Phil. Orc., lasting around 90 minutes, but that Järvi looks like a little exaggerated.


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## mbhaub

The Jarvi is not 120 minutes; it's 1:20 - 80 minutes. And it's a terrific performance. Which makes it all the sadder than Jarvi never committed it to CD back in his Scottish National Orchestra/Chandos days.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> The Jarvi is not 120 minutes; it's 1:20 - 80 minutes. And it's a terrific performance. Which makes it all the sadder than Jarvi never committed it to CD back in his Scottish National Orchestra/Chandos days.


I apologize -- my misreading of the time stamp was careless, as was not checking to see if the Järvi-led performance was ever a CD.


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> I apologize -- my misreading of the time stamp was careless, as was not checking to see if the Järvi-led performance was ever a CD.


There is another terrific Jarvi performance of Ilya Murometz; but it's unlikely we'll ever get to hear it. He did it with the Philadelphia Orchestra years ago - maybe around 2007? There's so much great stuff that the Phil Orch played that it's a shame they were never commercially recorded.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> There is another terrific Jarvi performance of Ilya Murometz; but it's unlikely we'll ever get to hear it. He did it with the Philadelphia Orchestra years ago - maybe around 2007? There's so much great stuff that the Phil Orch played that it's a shame they were never commercially recorded.


I guess it's the same old story of high recording expenses for one of the best orchestras ever. Maybe Glière was low on the priority list for both commercial and political reasons. I had no idea of who he really was, beyond a couple of short piano pieces.

The same applies for many of the composers discussed in this thread. Pre-1989 I had little sense of Russian romantic music beyond Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, The Russian Five and a bit of Scriabin, seen as a precursor of the New Age movement. I think we had our heads in the sand!


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## Roger Knox

EdwardBast said:


> The 21st, in a single movement, is genius. The 9th is a great early one in the dramatic, epic tradition of Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff, but Svetlanov ruins it. The Downes with the BBC Phil is far better. The 17th is along similar lines. If you want to hear Myaskovsky's wild, dark experimental side, try 10 and 13. The 7th has some strangeness too. If you favor the sweet and lyrical, 5 and 8. Big one with chorus, try 6. An exciting extroverted romp, 24 - the slow movement must have been in Shostakovich's ear when he composed his 12th.


Returning now to Nicolay Myaskovsky's 27 symphonies I have a suggestion. Using Edward Bast's post #34 as a guideline, if anyone would like to comment on one or a group of them please make a claim on this thread and go for it. Jim Prideaux has also recommended 21, 24, as well as 25. I'm claiming nos. 1 and 27. Myaskovsky is the last major composer for this thread; then we will go back to the early 19th century and add more on the composers we missed and on some concertos.


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## Roger Knox

Further to the previous post, the orchestral composers I plan to discuss apart from Myaskovsky are N. Tcherepnin and M. Steinberg. Then we'll proceed as mentioned above -- for example I've missed Liadov, and Medtner will be included for his three piano concertos. But please submit any posts relevant to this thread -- trying to be flexible.

Some people have wondered whether Myaskovsky belongs on this thread. Having listened to his Symphony No. 1 today, I can certainly say it is a late romantic work and I think a good one. But you can't define Myaskovsky according to era, because over his lifetime he composed in different styles that aren't necessarily assigned neatly into time periods. Much depended on the government of the day -- one of the biggest considerations for him was staying out of prison. And I'm not going to try to determine which of his works are late romantic or modernist, etc. Any of his orchestral compositions can be posted on. I've already written on No. 27 in post #31.


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## Roger Knox

Myaskovsky’s First Symphony in C minor (1908, rev. 1921) is called by some a student symphony. Yet it is an intense, convincing work that stands on its own merits. To be sure, the Tchaikovsky influence is there in short phrases peaking with an appoggiatura (leaning note), anxious tremolando strings, and a tendency to rise obsessively in register and dynamics. In the first movement’s opening Lento section a 5-note motif in the basses -- B-C-F-D-Eb – is followed with extension and imitation up to an epiphanic Straussian moment (an E major second inversion chord); then the music accelerates to the beginning of the main section in sonata-allegro form. It turns out that the previous motion to E major foreshadows the key of the second theme. Here the lyrical clarinet is answered by the flute and other instruments. In the development, the opening motif speeds up and is syncopated, again adding tension. There is a full recapitulation of the second theme in C major but this triumph is not sustained. A quiet horn signals the move back to a sad C minor and the close.

The second movement is a romantic Larghetto with lush strings and a melody beginning with a prominent two-note downward fourth motif. Much imitated in multiple voices and keys, it is supported with post-Wagnerian harmony. Its brooding mood never goes away completely. The final Allegro has a march theme with a steady bass tread; again there is a contrasting lyrical clarinet theme but it is disrupted by modulations and assertive orchestral interpolations. Succeeding accompaniments in triplets and sixteenth notes show the composer’s technical confidence and versatility. This work is a promising start for Myaskovsky’s productive career.


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## Roger Knox

The symphonic parable _Silence_ (1910) followed upon Myaskovsky's Symphony No. 1; not long after the symphonic poem _Alastor_ (1912) appeared. _Silence_ is based on Edgar Allan Poe's prose poem of the same name (not on _The Raven_, as one recording's program notes had it). I can't yet identify the reason for calling it a symphonic parable or the relation of poem to orchestral work, but would welcome information. From the opening growly double basses and low woodwinds onwards it holds a certain fascination. The frequent augmented triads and half-diminished seventh (so-called "Tristan") chords are typical of early Myaskovsky. Around the middle a regular tread of repeated bass notes begins, interrupted by near-silences. Ripping wind and brass shrieks are added, as is later the suggestion of flocks of birds crying in chromatic wind and string passages. The composition is a bit long for me at c. 21 minutes, but evoking catastrophe sometimes takes time …

As with _Silence_ I think listening to _Alastor_ would benefit from reading the literary source, here Percy Bysshe Shelley's like-named long poem. This 25-minute work opens in a sense of crisis, but then there is a more optimistic middle section. I find the prominence of a scalewise four-note chromatic motif with the intervals half step-whole step-half step interesting. The same succession is a continuous ostinato in Ravel's _Rapsodie espagnole_. It is also half of the octatonic (8-note) scale. Replacement of traditional major and minor scales and chords with other pitch patterns here suggests a move into modernism, something that Myaskovsky did at times and pulled back from at other times.


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## Roger Knox

The Second Symphony in C# Minor by Myaskovsky (1910-11) is also late romantic, composed between his two symphonic poems. I did not find it as compelling as the First Symphony, perhaps because the recording of the latter by the USSR Ministry of Culture SO/Rozhdestvensky is so outstanding. All three movements of the Second are in triple meters; that can create a feeling of instability over time. I think this is intentional and in the first movement the prevailing tricky Dah-daDa rhythm of the motif has something to do with it. There are big Myaskovskian contrasts in volume and register; the second subject builds to a stormy version of the motif. The movement is in clear and conventional sonata form. In the slow movement I hear the influence of Rachmaninoff in melodies and certain chord progressions, e.g. at 16:00 in the Svetlanov-conducted version from his complete set of the orchestral works of Myaskovsky. The mood is pensive with winds more prominent than in the First Symphony's Larghetto. The English horn eventually emerges as the leader of a succession of expressive wind solos towards the remarkable close of the movement.

There is a link to the last movement, -- a scherzo-finale with characteristics of both: a fast triple meter and a rousing close to the work marked _Allegro con fuoco_. The opening theme is marked by syncopations and accents; a second theme with more post-romantic harmony featuring the augmented-major seventh chord follows. Surprisingly there is an extended solo for contrabassoon alone, before further adventures with chromaticism and final statements of the movement's two main themes. Overall, the Second is another big symphony that shows harmonic advances in the last movement especially.


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## Roger Knox

My next post will be on Myaskovsky's 3rd Symphony (1914). Also I'll have a few remarks on his last 2 symphonies, Nos. 26 and 27. As described in post #77, please post anything you have to say on him here. I will be continuing with N. Tcherepnin and M. Steinberg but will still welcome seeing your thoughts on Myaskovsky be they brief or lengthy.

In connection with Symphony No. 3, the year 1914 is significant to me for a personal reason. My English grandmother, who was a fine musician, was governess to a family in St. Petersburg during that year. When rumors of war began foreigners were anxious to get out of Russia. My grandmother fortunately got onto the last passenger ship from St. Petersburg to London. When war was declared in Russia the border was closed and no one could leave. Who knows what could have happened to my grandmother in the 1917 revolution or afterward. She certainly wouldn't have met my grandfather who was in the Canadian army.


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## Roger Knox

A number of commentators have noted the influence of Scriabin on Myaskovsky’s Symphonies Nos. 2 and 3. Symphony No. 3 in A Minor (1914) has an unusual structure of two long movements. The work begins typically in the low register; a brass call interrupts. The first theme in a modified sonata-allegro form is tonally indecisive, consisting of abrupt segments with sharp cutoffs. The cellos present a lyrical second theme in C major, but there are mysterious pauses. The themes are developed extensively, with the pace increasing along with the frequency of key changes. More extended theme-based passages are followed by a section with everything in syncopation. About half way through the movement there is a tremendous major key statement from the brass that becomes the climax. From there the mood becomes more anxious, with a sense of crisis. In a long denouement themes are treated contrapuntally contributing expressive and moving moments. Near the end the tonic major key is re-established, closing in a high register.

The second movement is a rondo with the latter part a funeral march. It opens in a fast tempo and establishes a recurring descending motif that outlines a tritone. This interval becomes an element of an oriental scale and also of the octatonic (8-note) scale, both different than scales of movement 1. The contrasting second theme features a slower ascending motif. In the development the first motif becomes an ostinato supporting other activity that builds up to climaxes. There follows another slow section with a clarinet solo answered by very low double basses, and a chordal string passage leading to a desolate oboe solo. Violins wail in separated outbursts, and over tremolo strings the brass cry out. Typically, Myaskovsky’s augmented and minor triads plus seventh chords contribute to the uncertain, dismal mood. Following a final unison statement the music fades away in the lowest orchestral register. Described by the composer as a work of “profound pessimism,” to me it is not morbid. It connects both to the composer’s life and to the time of composition, with war and revolution looming in Russia.


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## Waehnen

I just got myself the 4th and 5th Symphonies by Glazunov. I am most surprised why this music is not performed more. I admire the musical language and the extremely colourful orchestration.

My interest in Glazunov was born in a concert last autumn where the Saxophone Quartet was performed. I really enjoyed the musical language.


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## Roger Knox

Waehnen said:


> I just got myself the 4th and 5th Symphonies by Glazunov. I am most surprised why this music is not performed more. I admire the musical language and the extremely colourful orchestration.
> 
> My interest in Glazunov was born in a concert last autumn where the Saxophone Quartet was performed. I really enjoyed the musical language.


*Huillunsjota* was doing original research and singing his praises on the Glazunov Composer Guestbook years before I came to TalkClassical. Glazunov is a cherished discovery of my senior years -- and he's not only for seniors! I started the thread "Making friends with Glazunov's symphonic poems ..." and people including me began posting on his symphonies too. He also piqued my interest in other Russian composers, which is why I started this thread. I agree Glazunov's symphonies 4 and 5 should be performed more -- maybe they are in Russia but not internationally. Perhaps some other posters here know more about that.


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## maestro267

The posts on the Myaskovsky symphonies has made me want to revisit them. Interesting that, apart from No. 1 which has a more Brahms-sized orchestra (pairs of woodwinds etc.), for the rest of the "single-digit" symphonies Myaskovsky calls for the extra weight of six horns instead of the standard four. And the first three all end in the minor key. No. 2 ends quite dissonantly, with a final thump.


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> *Huillunsjota* was doing original research and singing his praises on the Glazunov Composer Guestbook years before I came to TalkClassical. Glazunov is a cherished discovery of my senior years -- and he's not only for seniors! I started the thread "Making friends with Glazunov's symphonic poems ..." and people including me began posting on his symphonies too. He also piqued my interest in other Russian composers, which is why I started this thread. I agree Glazunov's symphonies 4 and 5 should be performed more -- maybe they are in Russia but not internationally. Perhaps some other posters here know more about that.


I love that 4th - wonderful, brilliant, so exciting and I've never understood why it's not better known. But then that's a problem for a lot of great music. I've been going to concerts all over the place for over 50 years. I have only twice encountered both the 4th and 5th. The first time I heard the 4th was a distinctly amateur group which couldn't really manage the difficult string parts - it was pretty poor. Even 45 years later I still remember how awful it was. Maybe it was the review in paper which destroyed the conductor saying that a metronome on a music stand would have done a better job than the woman trying to direct. Ouch! Then the Tucson did a smashing performance of it a few years back. Just nailed it - the coda of the finale was electrifying. So good that I went the the next performance. The 5th I first heard with a good college/community orchestra but then the Phoenix Symphony outclassed them the next year. And that's it. The reality is that orchestra repertoire is solidified and it takes a great deal of effort and dedication to get it to change. Audiences are just as bad: they like what they know. After that Tucson performance everyone I talked to just loved it and had the same comment: they should play more Glazunov. Won't happen. Thank God for CDs.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> ... Then the Tucson did a smashing performance of it a few years back. Just nailed it - the coda of the finale was electrifying. So good that I went the the next performance. The 5th I first heard with a good college/community orchestra but then the Phoenix Symphony outclassed them the next year. And that's it. ... Thank God for CDs.


Agreed -- although I don't like to think this, the reality is that there are lot of darn good 19th- and early 20th-century orchestral compositions that haven't made it into the global live performance repertoire. So let's consider them an alternative global repertoire available mainly on multiple digital and analog media platforms -- that isn't too shabby these days. How to maintain and enhance this repertoire is the question.


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## Roger Knox

maestro267 said:


> The posts on the Myaskovsky symphonies has made me want to revisit them. Interesting that, apart from No. 1 which has a more Brahms-sized orchestra (pairs of woodwinds etc.), for the rest of the "single-digit" symphonies Myaskovsky calls for the extra weight of six horns instead of the standard four. And the first three all end in the minor key. No. 2 ends quite dissonantly, with a final thump.


Good observations -- with No. 2 Myaskovsky moved away from a number of standard Romantic conventions that he learned as a student e.g. number of horns. Also he was known for remaining silent about his music. I've come to believe that instead of using his words Myakovsky put such suggestive things as "a final bump," horn splats, broken-off phrases, pauses, and other surprises into his music.


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## Roger Knox

In Myaskovsky’s Symphonies Nos. 1-3 we hear how his symphonic career began. It ended not long after Communist Party General Secretary Andrei Zhdanov’s 1948 announcement condemning Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Myaskovsky, Khachaturian and other leading Soviet composers for “formalist” compositions. This meant in effect that the works did not express the will of the people adequately. Composer Tikhon Khrennikov had even supplied the names of specific works under censure; among those by Myaskovsky were Symphonies Nos. 10 and 13. Already suffering from cancer, Myaskovsky was devastated by this event. He had refused to apologize to Stalin on principle. While remaining silent he went on to compose Symphonies 26: On Russian Themes and 27. No. 26 is populist in orientation while including contrapuntal arrangements of high quality. No. 27 goes further artistically and I like think that it is the composer’s gift to a future time more receptive to his message. He died in 1950.


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## Roger Knox

I was going to move on with Nikolai Tcherepnin's symphonic poem _The Enchanted Kingdom_ (1910), but now realize it was actually his score for a ballet, _The Firebird_, which was passed over by Diaghilev in favor of Stravinsky's version. In fact, almost all of his orchestral music that I've heard was written for the stage: theatre, opera, or ballet. And in the one exception, his Piano Concerto (1905), I think the only part that succeeds sounds very much like his ballet music. But this thread focuses on concert works for orchestra. Tcherepnin was highly-esteemed as a conductor, pianist, and stage music composer; his atmospheric, impressionist scores are innovative and especially good in sound combinations that include pitched percussion instruments. They also look eastward and incorporate oriental musical influences. After World War I Tcherepnin worked mainly in Paris.


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## Roger Knox

Maximilian Steinberg’s upbeat Symphony No. 1 (1905-6) opens with an energetic theme in triple meter. There follows a contrasting second theme in the dominant key, each lilting phrase answered with a soft wind instrument’s “cuc-koo.” In the development there are successive chromatic modulations. Brass instruments become more prominent in the recapitulation while the coda surpasses all of the preceding in brilliance. Speedy double-notes characterize all sections of the orchestra in the scherzo movement. The trio has a slower waltz-like melody, and then the scherzo returns with some tricky surprises. 

Solemn chords open the slow movement, and an expressive minor-key clarinet melody is picked up by the strings. The pace picks up and harmonies grow more intense. Horn and oboe join in the conversation but the mood remains unsettled with Wagnerian harmonies. A flute trio emerges and the eventually the mood softens, disappearing into silence after the clarinet’s last tones. The Finale is march-like, conventional enough except for some unexpected chords, and building with imitative lines though still with a light touch. An exciting fugal passage with syncopated accents ensues with an ongoing chromatic ascent and increasing brass presence. But the movement takes its time with a variety of instrumental passages and contrapuntal treatments before accelerating to a triumphant close.


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## Roger Knox

Steinberg’s Symphony No. 2 (1909) is at least as technically adept as No. 1, but it is darker in mood at times. It was composed in memory of Steinberg’s teacher and father-in-law Nicholas Rimsky-Korsakov. The first movement opens at a brisk tempo with wonderful energy and imaginative orchestration. Throughout the movement melody flows forth and there are fresh harmonic touches such as a series of chords harmonizing the whole tone scale. Compared to No. 1 the strings are more prominent throughout. The fast second movement is a virtuoso showpiece featuring violin runs. In its slow middle section, the succession of triads from unrelated keys is effective. A rousing brass chorale is added to the virtuoso music from the opening in the last section. There are references to Rimsky-Korsakov in the lament which opens the finale: these include passages featuring the trombone or trombone trio and the harmonic progression of two triads a tritone apart. A final chorale surrounded by instrumental flourishes is succeeded by the astonishing descending strings and triumphal major chord that end this moving work.


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## Roger Knox

Maximilian Steinberg composed five symphonies, but it appears that apart from Nos. 1 and 2 only Symphony No. 4: “Turksib” (1933) is available. Its name is an abbreviation of the Turkestan-Siberia Railway whose completion it celebrates. It is a Soviet symphony, quite different from Steinberg’s pre-WWI Russian ones. Melodic material is from folk music, e.g. Kazakhstan in the first section. Modernist elements are especially prominent in the scherzo and finale, including advanced orchestration, syncopation and non-standard metric division, unsettled seventh chords and augmented triads. In general the Soviet symphony is really beyond the scope of this thread though.


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## Roger Knox

With Maximilian Steinberg we are at the most recently-born composer under consideration and it’s time to turn the ship around. We’ll pick up composers who’ve been passed over and add some new ideas with the goal of finishing this project soon. 

I’ve already mentioned that Russia can draw you in further than you realize. (That is perhaps what happened to Napoleon, and to that Austrian guy in WWII.) Anyway, in the interests of humility and sanity I’ve decided not to post on concertos or other concertante works. My having listened to a lot of them will help guide the final composer choices. But there will only be a summary on concertos, not consideration of individual works. At this point please do not post comments on concertos or concertante works, only on orchestral music.

So we’re going back to the beginning with a new take on Glinka, Dargomyzhsky, Rubinstein, and Balakirev.


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## mbhaub

Rubinstein: people today are really unaware of his importance. He spend a lot of time touring the USA promoting his works and earning a lot of money in the process. His output is stupendous. But virtually everything he wrote - with one exception - has gone to the dustbin of history. That one one, Melody in F, was once a staple of piano students, but I'm not even sure how many people learn it anymore. I can still play most of it. If you're not a pianist you have no idea just how tricky it is. Fortunately, decades ago, someone at Marco Polo decided that Rubinstein needed a hearing and they gave us the complete symphonies and piano concertos. The symphonies are nothing spectacular and fell from grace for the best of reasons. But those piano concertos! The fourth and fifth used to be staples of the concert hall up until the '40s or so. Talk about barnstorming. They are so much fun to listen to. A great deal of his other orchestral music, solo piano music, chamber music has now been recorded - it's wonderful to hear. And the opera The Demon is marvelous and well deserves it's now two recordings. Someday I'm going to have a week long Rubinstein Festival at home and go through all of the recordings of his music I have - which is quite a lot. Rubinstein has a special place in my heart for one silly reason: there was this old horror film with Boris Karloff, The Walking Dead (long before the TV series), in which the Karloff character, revived from the dead, plays one piece of music on the piano: Rubinstein's Kamennoi-Ostrov no 22. It's a hauntingly beautiful piece that should be better known. Anyway, as a young kid I loved that movie and the music imprinted deeply in my head. When I first read that Prokofiev and classmates referred to lesser talents as "Dubinsteins" for an insult, smearing Anton Rubinstein in the process, I was always saddened by the use of his name that way. He deserves a lot of credit for his accomplishments and contributions to Russian music.


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## haziz

Tchaikovsky is, together with Beethoven, my absolute favorite composer, so he stands on a little bit of a pedestal. Depending on which side of the bed I wake up on either Tchaikovsky or Beethoven is my favorite for the day!

In addition to Tchaikovsky, I adore Borodin, Kalinnikov, and Rimsky Korsakov.
I do also hold Mussorgsky, Glazunov and Ippolitov-Ivanov in very high regard. I do also listen to and thoroughly enjoy Balakirev.

Getting into the twentieth century Shostakovich is a favorite. I discovered Myaskovski fairly recently but have enjoyed what I heard. Katchaturian is also very enjoyable. Somehow, most of Prokofiev never clicked for me, although I do like a few compositions.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Rubinstein: people today are really unaware of his importance. ... His output is stupendous. But virtually everything he wrote - with one exception - has gone to the dustbin of history.


Anton Rubinstein (1829-94) was unique because his career encompasses so many areas (most of which we won't get into here). An interesting fact about his birthplace Vikhvatinets, now named Ofatinti: today the town is in Transnistria, which is officially recognized as being part of the Republic of Moldova but is actually a "post-Soviet frozen state" overseen by Russia, Moldova and Ukraine.

National identity was also a confused business for Rubinstein during his lifetime, but for a cultural reason. His birthplace was within the Russian Empire, but for many years he lived in Berlin and Dresden. Advanced German musical training was something he and his brother Nicholas brought to Russia. But the Russian Five or "Mighty Handful" composers led by Balakirev wanted Russian classical music to be strictly Russian, based on folk and Russian Orthodox music. And yet Rubinstein's student Tchaikovsky showed that music could be both classically European and thoroughly Russian. Rubinstein was also born into a Jewish family, but his grandfather converted it to Orthodox Christianity. Later Anton claimed to be atheist. Nevertheless, Russian antisemitism was one reason why he spent considerable time abroad. Despite all of these conflicts, what an extraordinary career!


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## Roger Knox

*A Brief Detour: Stravinsky (Not) Romantic ...*

No, Stravinsky (1882-1971) was not a romantic composer! I've always heard his late romantic Symphony in E-Flat Major, Op. 1 (1905-6) as a regressive piece from his student years with Rimsky-Korsakov. So it is, but there's more to be said about Stravinsky after you've listened to other post-Rimsky late romantic Russian composers, e.g. Glazunov:

_The Russian orchestral scherzo_: Glazunov was a master of the orchestral scherzo, as is noted in reviews of many of his symphonies. I see a later development of the Russian orchestral scherzo in Stravinsky's E-Flat Major Symphony, which has a brilliant motoric one. His Scherzo, Op. 3 (1906) and _Fireworks_, Op. 4 (1908; a scherzo in form and character) for orchestra are in a similar vein.

_Program vs. absolute music_: In his neo-classical period, Stravinsky claimed the superiority of absolute music. Yet his Scherzo, op. 3 that he later described as "a piece of 'pure' symphonic music" was actually inspired by a Maurice Maeterlinck essay, The Life of Bees. So originally it was program music. _Fireworks_ is obviously programmatic. It became Stravinsky's tryout piece for the commissioning of his ballet _The Firebird_, (1910).

_Ballet score or concert work_: Glazunov's ballet score _The Seasons_ survives largely as a concert work. Stravinsky's ballet scores _The Firebird_ (Suite), _Petrouchka_ (Suite), and _The Rite of Spring_ (as is) also are mainstream concert works. Maybe the ballet score turned into a concert work becomes program music too?

Anyway it is extraordinary for a composer to have three ballet scores continue to have such an important place in the orchestral repertoire over one hundred years after their premieres. Stravinsky is a singularity in many ways. My best composition teacher said Stravinsky always sounds like himself whether in his early ballets, his neo-classical compositions, or his serial works. Of what other composer and over such a wide spectrum of styles could one say that?


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## Roger Knox

Correction: In the previous post, Scherzo, Op. 3 should be _Scherzo fantastique_, Op. 3


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> ... Soon to come -- an interesting take on certain earlier 19th-century composers: Glinka, Dargomyzhsky, Rubinstein, & Balakirev.


We're into the home stretch now -- going back to the beginning of our time period for Russian orchestral music to pick up composers passed over, or to touch on other significant matters. On a Google search you can find a Yale University doctoral dissertation by Kirill Zikanov, _Listening to Russian Orchestral Music, 1850-70_ (2018: published by ProQuest on an open-access basis), that provides analyses of certain works by Glinka, Dargomyzhsky, Rubinstein, and Balakirev from a revisionist point of view. These just happened to be the earlier "composers passed over" I'd been avoiding out of indecision or ignorance -- a meaningful coincidence! As for "revisionism" I can't go into that here more than to say that since 1989, both in Russia and globally, new sources and new musicological thinking have changed perceptions of 19th century Russian classical music. The prodigious Richard Taruskin has been the most influential scholar but there a number of other important ones. And in turn, revisions to the new musicological thinking including the dissertation mentioned above have been put forward as well.

With Glinka, the works Zikanov cites are _Kamarinskaya_ (1848), Spanish Overture No. 1 (or _Jota Aragonesa_, 1845), and Spanish Overture No. 2 (or Memory of a Summer Night in Madrid, 1851). The author says they should all be understood as "fantasias." Glinka's wording in an 1845 letter was "concert pieces for orchestra entitled _fantaisies pittoresques_ ... that communicate differently both to connoisseurs and to the ordinary public" (p. 15.) This genre would be different from the more difficult-to-comprehend orchestral symphony or concerto.

For the Spanish-themed compositions Glinka spent considerable time collecting music in Spain. For _Kamarinskaya_ he used two Russian themes. One revisionist claim the author makes is that this work has been wrongly rated higher than the Spanish ones ostensibly for formal reasons but actually more for Russian nationalistic reasons, Glinka being the progenitor of Russian Romantic music and the model for the Mighty Five. In _Kamarinskaya_ Glinka makes individualistic use of the theme as ostinato (while varying the counterpoint or orchestral background: called _ostinato-variation_) and of melodic variation, in the latter case ingeniously modifying the dance theme so it becomes the wedding theme. Previous analysts including Taruskin placed this and other procedures on a higher level than simple melodic ornamentation in the Spanish works. (to be continued)


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## Roger Knox

(continued)

Two Russian critics V. Stasov (promoter of the Mighty Handful) and A. Serov (a well-known composer also) had derived from the highly-respected 19th-century German theorist A.B. Marx a flexible sense of what the fantasia could be. From there the author identifies three different models in the three fantasias: (1) the ostinato-variation in _Kamarinskaya_; (2) variations embedded in a sonata form in _Jota Aragonesa_; (3) a series of dances representing remembered scenes in _Summer Night in Madrid_. According to Marx the fantasia has no fixed form but is best defined by tracking stability and motion throughout the work, along with the possibility of an extramusical program being a defining factor in the composition. It is more about following the piece moving in time than about overall architecture. In additional to formal distinction, there is also merit in the fantasias' subtleties of instrumentation and texture. Because I've been trying to decide whether or not Glinka stays in the Favored Composers list the standing of the two Spanish works is significant. The author and repeated listening to the works have convinced me of the equal merits of all three fantasias, and therefore Glinka stays in the Favored list. (end)


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## Roger Knox

The Glinka posts have been a hard slog! Moving on to Mily Balakirev (1837-1910), he is one of our Favored Composers and that won't change. Balakirev was an outstanding pianist who also had the good fortune to gain experience in conducting and composition at a young age; he was an innovator who preferred innovative composers. Following Kirill Zikanov's dissertation we'll look at three Balakirev overtures in relation to Glinka's fantasias. His _Overture on Three Russian Themes_ (1858) has a lot of repetition-plus-variation like Glinka's fantasias, along with an outline of sonata form. What the dissertation proves is that Glinka's Spanish fantasias influenced this work significantly; only the themes with their three-bar phrases are Russian. According to the author Balakirev's later _Russian Overture on Three Russian Themes_ (1864) continues his earlier procedures including the sonata form structure. But harmony and formal treatment are more complex, along with Berlioz-influenced orchestration; long woodwind pedal tones are frequent. The innovative Schumann and Liszt became additional influences. At this point Balakirev was under pressure to add extra-musical nationalistic explanations to his instrumental compositions. The work's revision is titled _Russia_ and identified as a symphonic poem with an after-the-fact "program." Balakirev's _Overture on Czech Themes_ (1867) appeared later as the "symphonic poem" _In Bohemia_ with the merest scrap of a program that obviously he did not take seriously.

The author continues with Balakirev's two symphonies and "real" symphonic poem _Tamara_. My final take-away from him is that while 19th-century and Soviet commentary was distorted and overly nationalist, certain revisionists e.g. Richard Taruskin, dismiss distinctions between the nationalist and the internationalist Russians too much. The famous division between the nationalist Mighty Five (Balakirev, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Cui, Rimsky-Korsakov) and the internationalists (Anton and Nicholas Rubinstein, Tchaikovsky) was not constant or consistent, but it was there.


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## Roger Knox

elgars ghost said:


> I've always been impressed with the orchestral and piano works of Mily Balakirev. Has anyone ever heard his early Octet for flute, oboe, horn, violin, viola, cello, bass and piano? Balakirev gave it an opus no. (no. 3) so he must have thought something of it. Sadly only the 15-minute opening movement has survived but there are performances of it on YT and I think it has been recorded.
> 
> I did once have a disc each by Steinberg and Lyapunov but neither aroused in me the desire to investigate further.


In post #103 there is some discussion of three of Balakirev's overtures, which I am convinced are excellent works now I understand more of what he was trying to do and I think accomplished. That included finding a point between popular and classical styles, as did his mentor Glinka in his fantasias.


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## Roger Knox

Correction: For the dissertation I have cited in post #101 the author is Kirill *Zikanov* (not Zinkanov).


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> I will: The Stone Guest is a terrific opera. Short, beautifully scored, an intelligible story, good music. I'd rather listen to it than any opera of Mozart or Verdi. A real group effort, too: Cui and Rimsky-Korsakov completed it. It's unfortunate that it is so hard to get: the DVD of it is atrocious, just godawful production. The Ermler recording is out-of-print.


Listened to following Glinka's and Balakirev's, Alexander Dargomyzhsky's orchestral fantasies are a step forward that is at the same time controversial. They include: I._Baba-Ÿaga_ or from the Volga to Riga, fantaisie-scherzo (1862); II._Kazachok_, fantasy on a Cossack theme (1864); and III.Fantasy on Finnish Melodies, or _Chukhon Fantasy_ (1867). The three appear on YouTube in a recording as Three Pieces for Orchestra by the USSR SO/Svetlanov, but I don't see them in the current catalogue. They were among his most popular and innovative works, and I enjoy them too. But insofar as they depict some ethnic minorities within the Russian Empire in unflattering ways there are political problems. To be continued.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Listened to following Glinka's and Balakirev's, Alexander Dargomyzhsky's orchestral fantasies are a step forward that is at the same time controversial. They include: I. _Baba-Ÿaga_ or from the Volga to Riga, fantaisie-scherzo (1862); II. _Kazachok_, fantasy on a Cossack theme (1864); and III. Fantasy on Finnish Melodies, or _Chukhon Fantasy_ (1867). The three appear on YouTube in a recording as Three Pieces for Orchestra by the USSR SO/Svetlanov, but I don't see them in the current catalogue. They were among his most popular and innovative works, and I enjoy them too. But insofar as they depict some ethnic minorities within the Russian Empire in unflattering ways there are political problems. To be continued.


_Baba-Ÿaga_ is in three sections, intended according to Zikanov to show the difference between Russians and Germans. In the first the serious Russians have a slow lamenting theme followed by modal ostinato variations, one with a violin melody over the theme and the next enriched with brass harmonies. In the third we visit the Baltic Germans of Riga who unlike the Volga Russians are supposed to be banal and conventional, represented by diatonic harmony and dull orchestration. In between is the witch Baba-Ÿaga who enters with grotesque slashing strings and magically flies from the Volga to Riga. For me it doesn't work with the music because the Germans' "banal" music in triple time isn't bad at all. Dargomyzhsky has a deft hand with syncopation and counterpoint; it's his fresh original music that attracts.

_Kazachok_ is more sophisticated musically, featuring Ukrainian melodies of the Zaporozyhe Cossacks with ostinato-variations followed by melodic variations. Of particular interest are the colorful alternation of a major triad's fifth with the minor sixth above, and the cadences closing on the augmented chord. The _Chukhon Fantasy_ goes further with third-related keys and the harmonic influence of Liszt's orchestral works, the whole-tone scale also making an appearance. It's a great listen. Tchaikovsky insightfully describes the composer's harmony as "savoury" whereas Glinka's is "sweet and savoury." For Dargomyzhsky I would add the word "spicy" (perhaps orientalist) with coloristic qualities that attracted the Impressionists. That the intention had to do with drunken peasants shows a level of condescension: in that respect _Kazachok_ tragically reminds us of long-term echoes in today's Ukraine.


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## Roger Knox

The last of the four Russian composers discussed in Kirill Zikanov's dissertation is Anton Rubinstein (1829-1884). Rubinstein poses a particular dilemma -- I value his many accomplishments and great ability at composition, but don't find his music compelling. My opinions are essentially the same as those engagingly expressed by mhaub in post #96. As for Zikanov, he is more appreciative of Rubinstein's music than I am. He presents an eloquence defence of the composer, in the face of criticism of Rubinstein for insufficient Russian nationalism and for favoring an "international" (read German) compositional approach. He also notes antisemitism as an aspect of the deprecation of Rubinstein that is well-documented.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> (continued) Two Russian critics V. Shastov (promoter of the Mighty Handful) and A. Serov (a well-known composer also) ...


Correction: "V. Shastov" should be *Vladimir Stasov*, critic and promoter of the Mighty Handful Russian composers (Balakirev, Borodin, Cui, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov).


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## Roger Knox

Following up on posts #47, #50, #51, and #53, here is my latest (I think penultimate) version of the lists promised for this thread.

*Most Favored Composers* (no change): Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff

*Favored Composers*: Glinka, Borodin, Balakirev, Mussorgsky, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Kalinnikov, Glière, Miaskovsky

NEW CATEGORY -- *Valuable Listening*: Dargomyzhsky, Lyapunov, Gretchaninov, Medtner, Steinberg

*Composers Worth Considering*: A. Rubinstein, Cui, Davidov, Liadov, Taneev, Arensky, Catoire, Blumenthal, Conus, Dobrowen

The *Valuable Listening* list is of composers I've decided upon as valuable but after repeated listening and deliberation not quite in the "favored" lists. That is a tough distinction. Re composers in the *Composers Worth Considering* list, their position is still undecided; please let me know of your opinions and suggestions. Same with any changes you'd like on the other lists. Please remember that I am listening to concertos & concertante works (including those by composers who did not write much or any other orchestral music -- Medtner, Davidov, Conus, Dobrowen), but not commenting on them.


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## Roger Knox

My two favorite Russian symphonic pictures are by Borodin (_In Central Asia_) and Mussorgsky (_A Night on Bald Mountain_). A number of posters on this thread have identified these two composers as favorites. Borodin's inclusion on my list of Favored Composers is strengthened by his three symphonies. As for Mussorgsky who is also on the list, well, there aren't any other orchestral works. The best I can do is to mention that his original and beloved cycle of piano pieces _Pictures at an Exhibition_ became the work orchestrated by a different composer (Ravel) that is most firmly established in the symphonic repertoire. An arbitrary choice then, Mussorgsky, but it "feels right."


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## Roger Knox

In view of Russia's current attack on Ukraine I thought of setting this thread aside. However, I think ignorance is not a good thing and it's better to keep on checking out Russian nineteenth century orchestral works until the thread's goal is reached. Actually, Russia has been difficult for me already. Not knowing the language is one thing; another is not having a feel for the country.

The symphonies of *Sergei Taneyev (1856-1915)* I find to be a mixed bag. No. 1 (1874) is dry, labored and repetitive. No. 2 (1877-78; completed and edited by V. Blok) is much better, notably in pacing and variety. In the particularly good opening movement the composer's strengths come to the fore: contrapuntal treatment of motifs, effective writing for woodwinds. Same in the slow movement although the counterpoint becomes a bit relentless towards the end. Taneyev seems to revel in martial music as is seen in the finale, though there are some clichés. Symphony No. 3 (1884) has a lovely pastoral third movement in siciliano rhythm. I found the opening movement less engaging than that of No. 2; on the other hand its harmony is more advanced. He has picked up the practice of Dargomyzhsky and Balakirev discussed in post #107 of alternating augmented and major triads using alternation of the top note from the flat 6th above the bass to the 5th. The finale is a romp -- good to hear Taneyev letting his hair down in this folk-dance-like movement! The best symphony of all in No. 4 (1896-98). To be continued.


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## mbhaub

Roger Knox said:


> My two favorite Russian symphonic pictures are by Borodin (_In Central Asia_) and Mussorgsky (_A Night on Bald Mountain_). A number of posters on this thread have identified these two composers as favorites.


But do you like Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain or Rimsky-Korsakov's arrangement? The latter is what is usually played and by far the best known. The composer's original is substantially different and quite bizarre. Stokowski's version is also worth checking out.

In the Steppes of Central Asia is such a beautiful work that is not played nearly enough anymore. And are you aware of different versions of it? Not that Borodin had anything to do with it, but some Soviet music idiot decided it needed sleigh bells. There have been several recordings of that monstrous perversion. Most surprisingly was Charles Gerhardt did it that way in his Reader's Digest recording (once available on Menuet).


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> But do you like Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain or Rimsky-Korsakov's arrangement? ... In the Steppes of Central Asia is such a beautiful work that is not played nearly enough anymore. And are you aware of different versions of it? ...


mbhaub, Good questions and I will get to them shortly. Fortunately these two works are outstanding and not long, so it is both worthwhile and feasible to consider other versions.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> If you like those composers (! sure do!) there's another who is quit obscure but well worth seeking out: Alexander Sergeievich Taneyev (1850-1918). This isn't the well-known Taneyev, but his uncle. The only music of his I've heard is on a Marco Polo disc from 1988. It has the Symphony no. 2 and Suite no.2. Both are in the Russian National mold and are thoroughly enjoyable for what they are. The symphony in particular doesn't ramble on.


*A. Taneyev* and *S. Taneyev*.

mhaub, Thanks for mentioning *Alexander Taneyev*. Both Taneyevs are late romantic composers, but Alexander's Symphony No. 2 (1903) is more colourful and popular in style with neither the contrapuntal sinews nor the striving for the heights of Sergei's four. I especially like the pensive slow movement. It is not fair to rate him in comparison to Sergei who was a genius. Like you I find the work enjoyable and will add Alexander Taneyev to the list of Valuable Composers. In addition to the Marco Polo recording that is in the catalogue, there also is a 2021 re-release of the Symphony No. 2 and Suite No. 2 by the Philharmonic Hungarica/Werner-Andreas Albert on Amadis.

Among his symphonies *Sergei Taneyev's* crowning achievement is No. 4 in C Minor (1896-98). It is difficult to maintain a polyphonic (many-voiced) texture together with clear and dramatically-conceived symphonic form but Taneyev did it splendidly. The first movement is energized from the beginning by stretto (close imitation of themes). Relief comes with the lyrical second theme. Again avoiding too much bombast, the development section thins out and the recapitulation barely sneaks in. The expressive slow movement begins with a long noble melody in A-flat major; notice especially a labored, ingeniously-harmonized ascending passage leading to a high pastoral section later on. The pastoral mood recurs with the Scherzo's opening: an oboe melody is joined later by the flute and clarinet. Taneyev carries Beethovenian syncopation to further levels of ingenuity and so do surprises in phrasing and harmony. Brass instruments build up the action, with calls suggesting the hunt and changes of direction the chase. The Finale is march-like at times, exciting and never rigid. At the beginning of this thread I included Sergei Tanayev among the Favored Composers but after hearing his Symphony No. 1 I dropped him a notch. Now he is once again one of the Favored!


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## mbhaub

Just a sad note. For some reason I felt a desire to put on Tchaikovsky's 6th, the Pathetique. After another day watching the horrific events unfolding in Ukraine, the 6th seemed the only thing. I listened to the symphony with new ears; the finale was heartbreaking and devastating in a way it never was before. I'm rehearsing the 2nd ~ the Little Russian ~ and it seems so inappropriate. No time for happiness.


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## Roger Knox

The orchestral output of *Anatoly Liadov (1855-1914)* includes miniatures belonging to several genres. Instrumental timbre, texture, and mood are among the features that make them memorable. Surely the fable-tableau _The Enchanted Lake_ (1909) is the most distinguished, with harmonies shifting as string trills and tremolos, pitched percussion, and subtle winds and brass enter and exit, leaving a luminous impression. The key word is "enchanted" and to me it connects with the world of Russian symbolism, which was a prominent artistic movement at the time of composition. Also drawn from the supernatural is _Baba-Yaga_ (1905), a short musical picture of the witch from Russian folklore that is represented here by a contrabassoon. _Kikimora_ (1909) is a legend for orchestra again depicting witches. It is harmonically advanced with chromatic characteristics based on the minor third interval, and in the fast section on the augmented triad. The ballade _About Olden Times_ (1906) and the symphonic picture _From the Apocalypse_ (1912) have a more rhetorical style of expression. There are a number of recordings of these and other Liadov orchestral miniatures in the catalogue; notable among them is that by the BBC Symphony/Sinaisky (2011) on Chandos. Another composer for the Valued Listening group.


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## Roger Knox

mbhaub said:


> Just a sad note. For some reason I felt a desire to put on Tchaikovsky's 6th, the Pathetique. After another day watching the horrific events unfolding in Ukraine, the 6th seemed the only thing. I listened to the symphony with new ears; the finale was heartbreaking and devastating in a way it never was before. I'm rehearsing the 2nd ~ the Little Russian ~ and it seems so inappropriate. No time for happiness.


Thank you. Yes what is happening in Ukraine is almost beyond words. Your word "devastating" struck me -- the connection of the physical and the emotional and Tchaikovsky's _Pathetique_. As for you rehearsing the Little Russian Symphony No. 2, I think "Little Russia" is what Ukraine was called at that time. And the symphony includes three Ukrainian folk songs.

I'm winding up this thread soon and will get onto other things. There will be nothing political here and I'm distressed too.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> I'm winding up this thread soon and will get onto other things. There will be nothing political here and I'm distressed too.


Shouldn't have said I'm winding up the thread; it will remain open and I'll continue to post and welcome other posts and opinions. Read an article about how far boycotts of things Russian should go. My opinion is that we shouldn't remain indifferent in the current situation, but it's political & therefore banned by TC in this forum.

There is a possible value in holding past Russian cultural achievements as a contrast to the present, but I do respect others who disagree with that notion. Will continue with Arensky and maybe Catoire, plus more on different versions of In Central Asia and Night on Bald Mountain.


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## Roger Knox

I have read different opinions about the symphonies of *Anton Arensky (1861-1906)* on TalkClassical; for me both works are successful and enjoyable. He wasn't trying for a towering achievement like that of Taneyev in the Symphony No. 4. Arensksy was known for the elegance and instrumental effectiveness of his music; the symphonies draw on those strengths but also on his abilities in melody, harmony, and creation of mood. Symphony No. 1 in B Minor (1883) opens in crisis with slow low brass tones. The allegro begins with a skipping motif followed by the major-key second theme. The Andante pastorale movement is in graceful 6/8 time, with attractive sonorities followed by a more ominous section punctuated by brass entries. The Scherzo is in 5/4 meter (3+2), appearing some years before the famous 5/4 waltz of Tchaikovsky's Sixth. The Finale based on a folk-like theme has interesting harmony and use of suspensions, ending happily. Arensky's later Fantasia for Orchestra: Marguerite Gautier (1886) based on _La dame aux camellias_ by A. Dumas is also notable for its harmony.

The cyclic Symphony No. 2 in A Major (1889) is more concise than No. 1 and its four movements are connected. The energetic opening movement has many syncopations and a catchy motif with the rhythm "BOP de-de bop bop BAH__bop," which recurs in the finale. The slow Romance begins with a horn melody, then a long theme for solo cello. The flute joins in with counterpoint and the mood becomes nocturnal. There are mixed meters in the following charming and light-footed Intermezzo, which frames a more rustic and full-bodied Trio section. An effective fugue closes the Finale, where several previous-stated themes recur. Arensky composed orchestral music in other genres and his Piano Concerto has a particularly beautiful slow movement; he is a Favored Composer.


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## Roger Knox

Born in the same year as Arensky was *Georgy Catoire (1861-1926)*, whose Symphony in C Minor, Op. 7 (1889) deserves recognition. Its opening movement varies in mood from lyrical to dramatic to pastoral. The following Scherzo is yet another excellent Russian piece in this genre, though not as spectacular as some others. It is in the irregular meter 7/4 (2+2+3). The attractive Trio strikes me as conveying sentiment without being sentimental. The slow movement is also distinguished, opening with wind solos answered by sighs in the strings. It begins in an intimate and expressive vein but builds to an unexpected level of passion likely influenced by Wagnerian style. The Finale has a band-like brass opening, but from there it reaches into magical territory with flutes and tuned percussion. Then there is a festive section evoking bells in passages for many different instruments. Only at the very end is there a perfunctory rousing close. I will include Catoire as Valuable Listening.

The Catoire symphony appears in the catalogue in a recording by the Royal Scottish National Orchestra/Martin Yates on the Dutton label (2012). The CD also includes the Symphony in C Minor "To the Beloved Dead" (1905-6) by Felix Blumenfeld (1863-1931). Previously I had been familiar with Blumenfeld as Vladimir Horowitz's piano teacher in their home city, Kiev. His symphony is an outstanding work but I'm not going to discuss it here. I've seen him referred to sometimes as a Ukrainian composer. I don't know the details of his nationality but have decided to leave him off this thread on Russian orchestral composers, as a salute to Ukraine and in the hope that there will be a thread on Ukrainian composers including Blumenfeld in the future. On this thread another composer who could be described as Russian or Ukrainian (or German) is Reinhold Glière.


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## Roger Knox

LAST CHANCE: The most recent list for *Russian Nineteenth-Century Orchestral Composers: Lists of Favorites* is Post #110. The deadline for your comments for the final list is March 14, 2022.

The above post is my last personal evaluation for the list. It remains for me to make some promised replies, to re-check everything concerned with the list, and to complete the final versions. So far:

1. *Arensky* and *Sergei Tanayev* are added or re-added to *Favored Composers*.
2. *Catoire* and *Liadov* are added to *Valuable Listening*. 
3. *A. Rubinstein* and *C. Cui* will be in *Composers Worth Consideration*, meaning that I haven't spent enough time with them to decide. Same with Alexander Taneyev (moved on second thought from *Valuable Listening*) and the concerto-only composers *Davidov*, *Conus*, *Medtner*, and *Dobrowen*.


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## Roger Knox

The *FINAL LIST POSTING DATE* for Russian Nineteenth-Century Orchestral Composers: Lists of Favorites will be Monday, March 21. In the meantime may I say how much your comments, questions, and suggestions are appreciated. This thread wouldn't have been possible without the active participation of TC members, some of whom I've named previously. I still plan to reply to some unanswered posts. But after initiating and carrying through long threads on late romantic orchestral German/Austrian and French composers this is definitely the last one.

As well as posts on the specific content of this thread I also welcome constructive remarks on the general approach taken -- for example what worked or didn't for you. As usual, anything except politics and religion. The idea has been to keep the light shining for classical music and it's been wonderful to experience the response.


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## Chibi Ubu

I love this thread, and all of the knowledge I am gaining from reviewing these posts. I've always loved 19th Century Russian Orchestral, but I have had a limited exposure to this genre in my life. 

I spent a lot of time in another online forum, but I wish I'd spent that time here instead. I am thankful for this website. Thank you all for sharing.


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## Roger Knox

I don't find your remarks smarmy. Partly because some participants know Russian orchestral music better than me, I've put a lot of work into this thread and appreciate your support.

*or*

I feel a slight pulling sensation in my leg. Er, yes. perhaps a Zappa-like prank is in the works. Or, to quote my countryman the great Bieber at his most profound, "What do you mean?"


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## Roger Knox

*Follow-up: Judgment or Preference?*

In the light of a number of lively discussions on TC, for this thread I decided to replace the language of judgment (best, greatest, most important) with that of preference (favorite, like). The idea was to avoid intellectual or artistic elitism, giving an undue sense of authority for judgments that are actually matters of personal preference.

I was able to stick with preference language. As for elitism, that's a different story. At times I used academic style and music theory terminology. In addition, I used the PhD. dissertation by Kirill Zikanov concerning Glinka, Dargomyzhsky, Balakirev, and Anton Rubinstein. There were no responses. The dissertation in particular was an experiment that I won't do again. But I certainly won't stop reading dissertations because they are one place where new information is to be found. And also I'd like to say that nowadays there are good, relevant studies being done in musicology and theory and that graduate programs in those areas deserve respect.


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## HerbertNorman

I enjoy reading through this thread and it is clear to me that most on here do not claim to have the whole truth on their side along with the "right and proven" opinion. 
While most threads on the orchestral music seem to be about two composers that I don't perticularly like that much... this thread is refreshing and has given me the chance to get to know some works ! I'm interested in the Russian culture (which is a dangerous thing to say these days) and I want to thank the contributors on this thread :tiphat: .


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## Roger Knox

HerbertNorman said:


> ... this thread is refreshing and has given me the chance to get to know some works ! I'm interested in the Russian culture (which is a dangerous thing to say these days) and I want to thank the contributors on this thread :tiphat: .


Thanks ... you mentioned Lyapunov 2 in particular. His big romantic symphonies were new to me too, along with excellent ones of Glazunov and of other composers born after 1850 -- S. Taneyev, Gretchaninov, Kalinnikov, Gliere, Miaskovsky, Steinberg. And all the orchestral music apart from symphonies. I don't agree with a boycott of Russian music, but I've lost interest in going further with it for now.


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## Roger Knox

*Russian Nineteenth-Century* Orchestral Composers: Lists of Favorites*

*FINAL LIST*

*Most Favored Composers (5)*: Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff

*Favored Composers (10)*: Glinka, Borodin, Balakirev, Mussorgsky, Taneyev, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Arensky, Kalinnikov, Glière, Miaskovsky

*Valuable Listening (6)*: Dargomyzhsky, Liadov, Lyapunov, Catoire, Gretchaninov, Steinberg

*Composers Worth Considering (7)*: A. Rubinstein, Cui, A. Taneyev; 
(wrote concertos only): Davidov, Conus, Medtner, Dobrowen

*TOTAL = 28*

*romantic/late romantic composers born 1800-1899


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> *FINAL LIST*
> 
> *Most Favored Composers (5)*: Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff
> 
> *Favored Composers (10)*: Glinka, Borodin, Balakirev, Mussorgsky, Taneyev, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Arensky, Kalinnikov, Glière, Miaskovsky
> 
> *Valuable Listening (6)*: Dargomyzhsky, Liadov, Lyapunov, Catoire, Gretchaninov, Steinberg
> 
> *Composers Worth Considering (7)*: A. Rubinstein, Cui, A. Taneyev;
> (wrote concertos only): Davidov, Conus, Medtner, Dobrowen


The Final List can't be very surprising since totals were posted periodically throughout the thread. I will be giving additional attention in the future to composers on the Favored Composers and Valuable Listening lists. Of the Composers Worth Considering I'm already busy with Anton Rubinstein.

I don't think the use of less "elitist" language (e.g. "Most Favored" instead of "Greatest") made that much difference really. Comments by participants were more effective, for example mchaub's championship of Ippolitov-Ivanov.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> The Final List can't be very surprising since totals were posted periodically throughout the thread. I will be giving additional attention in the future to composers on the Favored Composers and Valuable Listening lists. Of the Composers Worth Considering I'm already busy with Anton Rubinstein.
> 
> I don't think the use of less "elitist" language (e.g. "Most Favored" instead of "Greatest") made that much difference really. Comments by participants were more effective, for example mchaub's championship of Ippolitov-Ivanov.


Back to this thread, without intending any suggestion that I am not devastated by the current actions of Russia. 

One thing I want to do is comment on the composers of concertos who did not write much other orchestral music. Nicolay Medtner (1880-1951) is the most prominent one. Much as I have tried to like his three piano concertos, it seems that they don't speak to me. I will put this in general terms only. There is a convincing book by Ernst Toch called _The Shaping Forces in Music. _Rather than focus on musical form the author focusses on processes that generate the inner life of music. In my view the shaping forces are what Medtner lacks. A tremendous pianist and improviser, innovative in creating wonderful new figurations for the instrument and coming up with original concepts for his concertos, he seems not to have the discipline necessary to deploy his jewels to maximum effect. I sense wandering and busyness and don't feel any momentum. In addition Medtner was known to dislike orchestrating his music, an attitude which put into jeopardy the basic concerto principle of bringing opposites into play for both contrast and unity. In his solo concerts, he insisted on playing only his own compositions, thus greatly reducing his bookings and leaving him in poverty. He claimed to adhere to the highest artistic values while neglecting the value of bringing his pianistic gift to the music of other distinguished composers. He will remain in the category *Composers Worth Considering* till we have considered the other composers so designated.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> Back to this thread, without intending any suggestion that I am not devastated by the current actions of Russia. One thing I want to do is comment on the composers of concertos who did not write much other orchestral music.


Cello Concerto No. 4 by *Karl Davidoff (1838-1889)* is not to be missed! During my politics-induced absence from this thread I've had time to listen to more Russian nineteenth-century century concertos including all four by Karl Davidoff, a top virtuoso and excellent composer. His cello concertos are well-regarded by cellists but I shall go out on a limb and claim No. 4 to be the best -- other sources I've seen so far cite all of them without making distinctions. Please listen to Davidoff's No. 4 and let us know what you think!


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## Roger Knox

While awaiting comments on Davidoff I'll discuss the other "concertos-only" Russian composer -- *Julius Conus (Yuly Konyus; 1869-1942)*. He came from a family of French musicians whose ancestors had moved to Russia because of the Napoleonic Wars. Above are both the western and Russian spellings of his name. He studied violin and composition at the Moscow Conservatory and was a violinist in Russia until leaving for France after the revolution; unlike many other emigré musicians he moved back to Russia in 1939. The Violin Concerto in E Minor (1896) became well-known after Jascha Heifetz took it up and recorded it; many other violinists have also played it. In my late teens, a violinist friend of mine who played me recordings of his favorite works took out the Conus and Korngold concertos somewhat sheepishly. He really liked them but thought I'd find them too "Hollywood" (actually I didn't, but probably I like them better now than then). Since then the Korngold has really taken off, the Conus less so.

The concerto is concise (c. 18 minutes) and in sonata form, but with a slow movement interpolated in place of a development section. The opening theme is very affecting, continuing its melodic shape in the high notes of virtuosic runs. After a variety of both bowings and violinistic pitch formations it reaches a glorious climax in the relative key, G major. Then begins the slow movement, followed by an effective recapitulation and magnificent cadenza. This soloist's concerto seems tailor-made for Heifetz's technique and style. Its faults are typical of such concertos -- too many sequences and a tendency toward sentimentality. A great soloist can introduce variants in technique and expressive turns in such passages that make us buy into the work all the same. Jascha Heifetz, RCA Victor Symphony Orchestra/Izler Solomon; Naxos: Great Violinists Series, 2010.


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## hammeredklavier

Roger Knox said:


> composers of concertos who did not write much other orchestral music.


+Johann Nepomuk Hummel


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## Roger Knox

Why I think Karl Davidoff's Cello Concerto No. 4 is his best:

all three movements are of high quality. In comparison No. 3 opens beautifully and has a fine first movement; but the slow movement's themes are too conventional; the finale's second theme I find too short-breathed and repetitive
in No. 4's Allegro opening there is a tough, surprising motif that turns out to be a source of rhythmic energy; the cadenza has unusual double stops
in the opening of the second movement, a descending octave horn call could have been merely decorative and introductory but it becomes significant at various points; the extended cello melody is what I'm delighted to hear from Davidoff -- long-breathed, introspective, profound
the finale is truly jolly with a motif whose clear shape breaks up what could have been just another _moto perpetuo; _movement has the feel of superior light music


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## Roger Knox

Although I wanted to highlight No. 4, I shouldn't leave a negative impression of Karl Davidoff's first three cello concertos. Each one has positive qualities and I hope some listeners will post about them here. Davidoff also left two concertante works for cello and orchestra:

Fantasia on a Russian Folk Song in E Major op. 7 (1860) 
Ballade in G Minor, op. 25 (1875)
For the latter, so far I've only located a recording for cello and piano.


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## Roger Knox

For the Final List given in Post #129, Karl Davidoff will added in the category Valued Listening. The greatest pleasure in doing these threads on lesser-known composers is to find unfamiliar works that are of high quality.


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## Roger Knox

Occasionally I've felt the need to put in an extra plug for a particular composer. Such is the case with *Sergei Lyapunov* and his concertante works: two piano concertos, one violin concerto and the Rhapsody on Ukrainian Themes for Piano and Orchestra; they add support for his Valuable Listening designation. In particular the Piano Concerto No. 1 (1890) and the Violin Concerto (1915, rev. 1921) I would recommend to anyone. Lyapunov's piano style is full of contrasts; whether decorative or bravura, it is consistently attractive. I hadn't heard the Violin Concerto previously. Certainly the way he builds from the beginning of the slow section up to a heavenly high-register paradise is engrossing. The opening of the Rhapsody creates a melancholy atmosphere, while the dance section of the work reaches becomes a spectacular whirl leading to a hair-raising close. I wish there were a "calling card" work by Lyapunov that everyone knew, but any of the preceding works or the Second Symphony would be a good introduction to this distinguished composer.


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## Animal the Drummer

Agree wholeheartedly. I prefer these and his other orchestral works to his solo piano music, which I find enjoyable but ultimately less memorable, though not everyone with whom I've discussed Lyapunov agrees with me about that.


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## Roger Knox

Some may be surprised at this mention of the Double Bass Concerto (1902) by *Serge Koussevitsky (1874-1951)*, but I think it’s worth acknowledging the composer’s early career as a double bassist before becoming a great conductor. As I studied the instrument for two years I have a certain partiality to it. The opening Allegro begins with a _marcato_ orchestral theme that is answered by the double bass with a lyrical version of it, very Russian and sad. The passage exemplifies the character of the instrument as soloist, romantic and passionate. At this point I hear an objection: the cello could do this much better. My answer: yes the cello has wider scope and a high reputation as a romantic instrument but the solo bass has a different tone, a sort of despairing wail that can convey a feeling of being pushed to the extreme. So the bass is a singing instrument and many other things also. The Andante movement is expressive and convincing while in the final Allegro the opening dialogue returns in different guise. And played well, the virtuosic passage-work provides a unique sense of triumph. There are three recordings in the current catalogue, including: Gary Karr; Oslo Philharmonic/ Alfredo Antonini; New World-CRI, 2010.


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## Roger Knox

In addition to Lyatoshinsky and Koussevitsky there are other Russian composers to consider for various reasons. For example, think of the effects of the Soviet era on two late romantic composers who stayed in Russia: *Reinhold Glière (1874-1956*; already discussed) and *Alexander Goedicke (1877-1957)*. The more inspired Glière is already included on Favored Composers while Goedicke is not on any list. What they have in common is: (1) chronology; (2) writing of concertos; and (3) conformity under the Soviet regime. Glière quickly became known for his symphonies and other orchestral works, while Goedicke (a first cousin of Medtner) was a piano prodigy. His _Konzertstück_ for Piano and Orchestra (c. 1900) is a bravura work, wisely of more limited scope in length and style than the extraordinary Russian piano concertos of the period. Glière branched out into composing in other genres as well as conducting and taking on administrative positions. Goedicke had a teaching position in piano at Moscow Conservatory. Unlike Glière who had excellent training, Goedicke was largely self-taught as a composer.

Both composers wrote for less common solo instruments. Glière composed concertos for harp, coloratura soprano, cello, horn and violin (unfinished, completed by Lyatoshinsky). Particularly notable are the first two, and Joan Sutherland’s recording of the innovative work for soprano is remarkable. (_Glière and Glazunov: Concertos_: Sutherland; LSO/Bonynge; Decca). Glière stopped writing symphonies after the Soviets took power. Goedicke also wrote a concerto for French horn, a virtuosic and lengthy Trumpet Concerto, an _Etude concertante_ for trumpet, and a violin concerto which I haven’t heard. A superb recording of the Trumpet Concerto is by Timofei Dokshitser, one of the greatest trumpeters ever, who played in the Russian style with vibrato (_Rhapsody:_ Dokshitser; Bolshoi Theater Orchestra/Algis Zhuraitis; Marcophon 2008). I don’t know of any acceptable recordings of Goedicke’s three symphonies; his _At War: Six Improvisations for Orchestra_, op. 26 (1915; YT) is affecting.

The practice of both composers under the Soviets was to compose in very conservative romantic or romantic-classic styles. With concertos they could connect with top performers at home and abroad, credibly writing in an optimistic mode appealing to performers and audiences that would also appease the watchful authorities. (On the other hand symphonies might be accused of elitist “formalism” [abstraction], while orchestral program music could be condemned for its “content.”) Both composers also wrote occasional music in support of the rulers.


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## Subutai

FWiW: In Alphabetic Order 

The Mighty 5 (Imperial Russia)
1. Balakirev
2. Borodin
3. Cui
4. Mussorgsky
5. Rimsky-Korsakov

The (20th century+) Russian 5
1. Prokofiev
2. Rachmaninov
3. Shostakovic
4. Stravinsky
5. Tchaikovsky


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## haziz

Subutai said:


> FWiW: In Alphabetic Order
> 
> The Mighty 5 (Imperial Russia)
> 1. Balakirev
> 2. Borodin
> 3. Cui
> 4. Mussorgsky
> 5. Rimsky-Korsakov
> 
> The (20th century+) Russian 5
> 1. Prokofiev
> 2. Rachmaninov
> 3. Shostakovic
> 4. Stravinsky
> 5. Tchaikovsky



Tchaikovsky as a 20th Century composer! You got me there for a second. I do wish Pyotr had lived longer. Oh, what wonderful tunes he could have spun in a longer lifespan. I suspect you are refering to Boris.


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## Roger Knox

Re the Mighty Five, *César Cui (1835-1918)* is the one composer of the group who has not been discussed. Cui's father was French and his mother Lithuanian; his soldier father stayed in Russia after the Napoleonic Wars. One thing I recently learned about Cui is that his main career was as an expert in military fortifications. He became a significant music critic while as a composer he leaned towards the light classical type. His orchestral output consists of a number of suites and other pieces of similar scope. Among the suites is one featuring a soloist: the Suite Concertante for Violin and Orchestra (1889), whose four movements are titled Intermezzo scherzando, Canzonetta, Cavatina, and Finale: Tarantella. The first movement opens promisingly with a Russian mood and dance theme. The succeeding movements are well-crafted and appropriate to their genres, but otherwise strike me as dated for their time and not distinctive. That impression has remained with his other orchestral works, which would appeal to listeners particularly interested in light classical music. But I've decided not to include him on a list for this thread.


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## Roger Knox

*Issay Dobrowen (1891-1953)* was a Russian composer who emigrated to Norway and pursued an international conducting career. Dobrowen conducts the Philharmonia Orchestra on the recording of Medtner playing his own three concertos mentioned above. As for Dobrowen’s own Piano Concerto in C# minor, op. 20 (1926), it is a late romantic work with touches of a more modern sensibility. The opening movement shows influences in material and pianistic style of Rachmaninoff and Scriabin. The movement would have been more effective I think if the piano were not playing continually, particularly since it is followed by a _moto perpetuo_ Scherzo. This movement is lively and upbeat in mood with rapid modulations and colorful percussion. The succeeding slow Intermezzo is tragic with a sense of Scriabin-like fatefulness, for example in a trumpet solo answered by strings. By contrast the Finale is diffuse and lighter in character with its 1920’s-like pandiatonic piano solo, and a march section that parodies Rachmaninoff’s Second Piano Concerto (first movement, second theme) in places! If the work is eclectic it is also enjoyable and well-wrought leaving us with the wish that Dobrowen had composed more.


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## Roger Knox

Having chosen to complete what I promised, there will be a few more posts. St. Petersburg-based composer *Alexander Kopylov (1854-1911)* taught at the Imperial Court Choir where he had studied earlier. The current catalogue includes a recording (Moscow Symphony Orchestra/Antonio de Almeida; ASV) of his three independent orchestral works. They're not as sophisticated as those of his contemporaries, but at times they have a folk-music-based charm that I find appealing. The Scherzo in A, op. 10 is attractive and the trio has a fine melody. His Concert Overture in D Minor, op. 31 opens slowly with a stark unison passage. In the following allegro section there is a simple folk-like melody in F major with two ostinato variations. Development is limited and other tunes appear. The opening slow passage recurs in allegro tempo, and then the folk-like melody appears in a pastoral pedal-fifth supported version in the tonic major key. Harmonic variety contributes substantial interest in this work.

Kopylov’s Symphony in C minor, op. 14  is naïve at times yet worth hearing. The opening movement has structural similarities to the Concert Overture. Horn pedals create harmonic interest in the slow introduction, but the march-like allegro I find long-winded. A light scherzo follows; again there are structural similarities to another work, this time Kopylov’s earlier Scherzo in A. The trio section has a Russian-sounding melody and woodwinds are featured; the scherzo returns altered by syncopations. Next is an Andante in Ab major where Kopylov’s melodic gift shows in the extended opening string tune. The mood changes and becomes darker with subtle harmonic touches created by displaced notes of chords. The work closes with a brisk march-like finale.


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## Roger Knox

*Medtner Re-Considered and Piano Concerto No. 1 in C Minor, op. 33 (1914-18): *

Having re-read my Post #131 on Nicolay Medtner I think it’s too harsh. While not repudiating my earlier comments it's now necessary to balance them with more positive ones. After additional listening, the tragic Piano Concerto No. 1 in C minor is certainly a triumph in my view. From the outstanding opening in the grand manner it continues in one non-standard movement with the form Exposition, “Development” – a set of variations – and Coda. Once explained the form is clear, while the piano figuration and contrasting textures throughout are remarkable. Medtner’s themes are good but together with their settings they don’t have the compelling emotional appeal of Rachmaninoff’s. Many make this comparison but I now think it’s better not to and won't again, instead appreciating the many fine passages in the work. Concertos Nos. 2 and 3 to follow.


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## Roger Knox

*Medtner Piano Concerto No. 2 in C Minor, op. 50 (1925-27):*

Nicolay Medtner’s Piano Concerto No. 2 is, like No. 1, in C Minor. Formally, its three movements follow the outline of a traditional concerto, but for those interested in analysis there is much more going on than can be considered here. (In recent years academic interest in Medtner’s music has grown from its Russian base to include many other countries.) One thing that strikes me is the pronounced genre character of each movement: 1. Toccata; 2. Romanza; 3. Divertimento. Toccata means “touch-piece” and Medtner adheres to the original idea of a piece that explores different kinds of articulation and texture, not only virtuosity and perpetual motion. Virtuosity does feature in the stormy opening’s open fifths and galloping rhythms. The second theme is sentimental and pensive but builds in a march-like direction. Later on in the development there is delicate filigree for the right hand, followed by the return of militarism in a march and in machine-gun-like repeated notes. A long closing cadenza makes extreme demands on the performer.

In the lyrical Romanza in Ab Major that follows, Medtner’s late romantic side emerges in its wonderful melodic and harmonic appeal. The middle section is a scherzo while the opening returns with an attractive high-register obbligato above the melody. In the lighter finale (Divertimento), material from the opening movement returns in C major and triple meter, with hemiolas and other rhythmic devices of some complexity. There is a pastoral section suggesting folk-dance at times, perhaps the galumphing rustics of a fairy-tale, as this movement becomes an ironic counterpart to the Toccata.


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## Roger Knox

*Nicolay Medtner Piano Concerto No. 3 “Ballade” in E Minor, op. 60 (1940-43):*

Medtner’s Piano Concerto No. 3 “Ballade” opens in a striking way, with a bare major 3rd G-B suggesting the key of G major initially as does the motto G-B-D-C#-E. But G and B turn out to be the third and fifth of the tonic chord E minor, with tritone-related minor triads to follow. The mood is ominous with angry outbursts, and an unstable wavelike motion that pervades much of the work. The second movement is a short Interlude, the turning point that leads to a fast, march-like Finale. Later on, there is an expressive Db Major _andante con moto _section that I find especially beautiful. Wavelike motion leads eventually to a magnificent coda in E major where the work’s turmoil eventually subsides.

I heard this concerto at a Toronto Symphony concert many years ago and was impressed. It provides a fitting close to the Medtner Concerto Cycle. In carrying out this re-consideration of Medtner I couldn’t help but notice the wealth of fine recordings of these very difficult works, and the ongoing advocacy from Medtner supporters around the world. I’ve revised my opinion of Medtner upwards and see him as a success story over the long haul. His concertos are considered *Valued Listening* for the purposes of this thread.

We are now moving onwards to our last composer, the one that I was “afraid of” and am now starting to appreciate – *Anton Rubinstein (1829-94)*. Starting with the Violin Concerto and two Cello Concertos, there are many beauties to be found in his music. I look forward to comments …


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## Roger Knox

It is worth remembering that Anton Rubinstein was "leader of the pack" among Russian composers writing concertos, and not only his piano concertos. His three significant concertos for solo stringed instrument and orchestra were previously unknown to me. The Violin Concerto in G Major, op. 46 (1857) was composed for Polish virtuoso Henryk Wieniawski. It’s an engaging work opening in a pastoral mood. The first movement’s melodies are notable for musicality and charm. In the development the violin passagework is convincing and there follows a contrasting expressive minor key section with violin-woodwind dialogue. The movement progresses to a triumphant close. In the Andante the violin makes an ethereal entry following pensive string and woodwind-brass passages. Later there is more intense double-stopped minor key writing. An excellent slow movement. The soloistic finale begins well, with a bouncy motif. The emphasis is on dynamic and registral range and on contrast of fast and slow passages. Violinist Takako Nishizaki contributes an able performance with the Slovak PO/Halasz (Naxos 2001).


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## Roger Knox

Rubinstein's Cello Concerto No. 1 in A Minor, op. 65 (1864) was composed for cellist-composer Karl Davydov. Its three movements are played continuously. The first movement opens with a three-note motif on which the orchestral exposition is based. The cello part shows the influence of Italian opera in recitative-like and dialogic writing. A cadenza precedes the movement’s close. In the slow movement a mysterious chordal figure in the low strings is followed by the lyrical solo cello’s pensive melody. Wind solos come to the fore in back-and-forth interplay with the cello. Rubinstein’s melodic gift and an unerring sense of how it could be applied over the cello’s wide range sustain this attractive movement. The rondo finale marked _Allegro con fuoco_ is actually quite genial for large stretches, with the composer as usual offering the cello plenty of opportunities to sing. After many challenging and emotional passages the tonic major key of A major is happily established. A 2-CD recording _Anton Rubinstein: Orchestral Works_ includes this work played by the superb Alban Gerhardt with the Wuppertal SO.


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## Roger Knox

Karl Davydov was the outstanding Russian cellist of his time and Anton Rubinstein returned to him in writing the Cello Concerto No. 2 in D Minor, op. 96 (1875). From the opening melancholy theme onward this work comes across as Russian in character. The composition is an advance over Concerto No. 1; perhaps the composer is at his peak here in deploying his gift for drama in instrumental music. After a second movement in which the cello sings in a most affecting manner throughout, a cadenza with orchestral interjections links to the Finale. Here the cello’s _persona _takes on several guises, first a rustic folk-like demeanor in the rondo subject. As the movement develops there are places where the music pauses suddenly, perhaps suggesting the intervention of unexpected memories? The piece employs the instrument’s different registers well, for example there is a high-register episode featuring double-stopped sixths, a Davydov specialty. A solemn lament towards the end is followed by a _presto_ coda with effective variants of the subject.


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## Roger Knox

I imagine someone raising a hand to cry "Objection" to the above three posts, which present a more positive impression of Anton Rubinstein than did post #108. Point well taken; Rubinstein composed a huge amount of music of many kinds and of varying quality. But I have found that my opinion of Rubinstein has risen considerably! Working through this _ouevre _I will only post on pieces I like and not necessarily all of them. Readers could you please post on works you like and dissent on my choices as you wish.

Moving on to the five piano concertos now I plan to include No. 3 and No. 4 -- the rest are open for anyone to initiate discussion. The symphonies and symphonic poems will be commented on similarly.


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## Roger Knox

Warning, this will be old hat to some... I just listened to Josef Hofmann's live 1937 recording of Anton Rubinstein's Piano Concerto #4 on YT. The recording has changed my opinion of the work for the better. And why not, since Hofmann was Rubinstein's hand-picked student?

This thread is not about music and politics. Yet issues in the celebrated conflict between the Rubinstein faction and the Balakirev-led Mighty Handful faction in the mid-19th century led to problems in the posthumous reception of Anton Rubinstein's music, both in Russia and abroad. The Hofmann recording isn't new but it does show where Rubinstein shines. To be continued ...


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## Roger Knox

Anton Rubinstein’s Piano Concerto No. 3 in G Major, op. 45 (1853-4) is particularly notable for its remarkable ending. After a brief powerful introduction, the exposition opens genially enough with a gentle quasi-pastoral theme that continues in an upward arpeggio; the balancing second theme begins high and arpeggiates downward. In the development variants and modulations create a more agitated mood, but calm prevails with much ornamentation in the piano part and a curtailed return. Enigmatic question-and-answer motifs pervade the slow movement, while the middle section is much more dramatic, with the piano interacting with the orchestra in a recitative-like manner. The return is varied effectively. A joyful rondo finale seems to bring the work to a close, but the composer is not finished yet. Themes from all movements return one by one, plain or altered, establishing an overarching unity for the work as a whole using the cyclic principle; this coda elevates the work to a distinguished level in my view.


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## Roger Knox

Anton Rubinstein reached his peak in the virtuoso Piano Concerto No. 4 in D Minor, op. 70 (1864), his most-played and -recorded concerto. The first movement’s themes work well for later development and in interplay with the orchestra. The cadenza is effective, accelerating at the end into a coda with thundering octaves below the strings’ thematic statement. The second movement for me has hints of a lullaby, in its triple meter and affecting melodies; the middle section is more restless for contrast. The rondo finale’s theme is catchy, with its striking opening on a Neapolitan sixth chord and its exciting dance character. Dazzling figuration, emphasis on octave displacement, and injection of harmonic surprises such as the rapidly modulating coda ending in the tonic major key are some notable features. Josef Hofmann’s 1937 recording with the Curtis Institute Student Institute Student Orchestra/Fritz Reiner still is the reference performance, but more recent recordings with better audio are worth checking out.


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## Roger Knox

_Caprice Russe_ (Russian Capriccio) for Piano and Orchestra, op. 102 (1878)

Of Anton Rubinstein’s three non-concerto works for piano and orchestra I prefer the Russian Capriccio. It is based on three folk-like themes, none of them actual folk songs. But here Rubinstein notably acknowledges the Russian tradition of Glinka and others in which classical compositions are created around folk songs using ostinato variations, where the melody remains the same while the background and instrumentation vary significantly (see posts #101-108). There are three ostinato variations on the first theme followed by a piano statement. Then the piece continues with variations, a cadenza, and an exciting final _presto. _Along the way the other themes are introduced and manipulated/combined ingeniously. By this point Rubinstein and the nationalist composers were on better terms, learning from each other for the greater good.

At this point I’m leaving Anton Rubinstein without considering the symphonies, symphonic poems, or other orchestral compositions, because outside commitments are pressing. I hope someone might continue with Rubinstein. Both Nicolay Medtner and Anton Rubinstein are designated as *Valuable Listening. *I might have described them as *Favored* *Composers* except that they still aren’t, in comparison with other Russian composers among my personal preferences. That’s why I left including them till the end. Yet as a result of this thread I do appreciate them much more than previously.


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## Roger Knox

*Russian Nineteenth-Century* Orchestral Composers: Lists of Favorites

FINAL LIST REVISED

Most Favored Composers (5)*: Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff

*Favored Composers (10)*: Glinka, Borodin, Balakirev, Mussorgsky, S. Taneyev, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Arensky, Kalinnikov, Glière, Miaskovsky

*Valuable Listening (8)*: Dargomyzhsky, A. Rubinstein, Liadov, Lyapunov, Catoire, Gretchaninov, Medtner, Steinberg

*Composers Considered (11)*: Cui, A. Taneyev, Kopylov, Blumenfeld**, Goedicke, Gnessin
(concertante music): Davidov, Conus, N. Tcherepnin, Koussevitsky, Dobrowen

*TOTAL = 34*

*romantic/late romantic composers born 1800-1899

** Ukrainian?


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