# Anyone here like Kurtag?



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What are the summits of his music? Has his style changed significantly? 

I want to get to know his music a bit better so suggestions for things to listen to would be appreciated.

Oh and a specific question: what am I supposed to do with Jatekok? Listen to it? Or is it music for playing only?


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Here are my favourite pieces:
Orchestral: Stele, Quasi una Fantasia, Double Concerto
Chamber: 12 Microludes for SQ, Signs-Games-Messages for strings
Solo: Signs-Games-Messages for viola
Piano:Homage to Ferenc Farkas II and III, Jatekok, Ghosts
Vocal: Kafka Fragments, Four Songs to Poems by J.Pilinszky, Botschaften des verstorbenen Fräuleins R.V.Trussova
Opera: Endgame

Although there is evolution in the Kurtags works they remain very much attached to the miniatures. The latest masterpiece the opera Endgame shows however that there are up to grander compositions.
IMHO Kurtag's music is difficult even for listeners who for example have absorbed radical serialism. Therefore I suggest you listen to Jatekok but not in one session.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I have enjoyed his music but don't now much about it. When I wish to learn about a composer the first thing I do is google his name to find the Wikipedia article on him and his compositions. For example:

*György Kurtág*

*List of Compositions*

*Játékok*

And there is a TC thread on György Kurtág in the Guestbook.


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## calvinpv (Apr 20, 2015)

Count me as someone who never really understood the lovefest for Kurtág here on TC. I know it's a me problem, and like Mandryka, I'm open to listening suggestions (as well as any reading suggestions). But two things that kind of turn me off from Kurtág are:
1. My attention span has to waver for just a second or two, and I've already missed like 4-5 movements in a work. I know that's an exaggeration, but not really. I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as too short of a work.
2. From the very little I've read on Kurtág, a lot of the compositional decisions seem to have an autobiographical dimension to them, reflected in the fact that the subtitles for a lot of his pieces are "tribute to X". While I do sense a sort of humorous element to his music, I feel like the humor is in the form of an inside joke between Kurtág and the dedicatee of the work, a joke I'll never be privy to. Maybe I'm wrong on this.

With that said, the one piece I'd really like to know more are the _Játékok_, but I don't believe there's a single recording containing the complete set. Does anyone know which combination of recordings would give me the complete set?

I've also heard the opera _Fin de partie_ is supposed to be really good.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

calvinpv said:


> Count me as someone who never really understood the lovefest for Kurtág here on TC. I know it's a me problem, and like Mandryka, I'm open to listening suggestions (as well as any reading suggestions). But two things that kind of turn me off from Kurtág are:
> 1. My attention span has to waver for just a second or two, and I've already missed like 4-5 movements in a work. I know that's an exaggeration, but not really. I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as too short of a work.
> 2. From the very little I've read on Kurtág, a lot of the compositional decisions seem to have an autobiographical dimension to them, reflected in the fact that the subtitles for a lot of his pieces are "tribute to X". While I do sense a sort of humorous element to his music, I feel like the humor is in the form of an inside joke between Kurtág and the dedicatee of the work, a joke I'll never be privy to. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
> 
> ...


Ligatura by Maria Grazia Bellocchio has a significant collection










Kurtág: Play Kurtág by Márta Kurtág










Játékok Selections from Volume 1-4 by Márta Kurtág










You should read the link I posted about this group of works.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> What are the summits of his music? Has his style changed significantly?
> 
> I want to get to know his music a bit better so suggestions for things to listen to would be appreciated.
> 
> Oh and a specific question: what am I supposed to do with Jatekok? Listen to it? Or is it music for playing only?


If you're UK based, pick up the Radio 3 podcast on him .......


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Oh and a specific question: what am I supposed to do with Jatekok?.....


I'd see a doctor about that, Mandryka.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

calvinpv said:


> Count me as someone who never really understood the lovefest for Kurtág here on TC. I know it's a me problem, and like Mandryka, I'm open to listening suggestions (as well as any reading suggestions). But two things that kind of turn me off from Kurtág are:
> 1. My attention span has to waver for just a second or two, and I've already missed like 4-5 movements in a work. I know that's an exaggeration, but not really. I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as too short of a work.
> 2. From the very little I've read on Kurtág, a lot of the compositional decisions seem to have an autobiographical dimension to them, reflected in the fact that the subtitles for a lot of his pieces are "tribute to X". While I do sense a sort of humorous element to his music, I feel like the humor is in the form of an inside joke between Kurtág and the dedicatee of the work, a joke I'll never be privy to. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
> 
> ...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

justekaia said:


> Ghosts


You mean this?

https://marinoformenti.net/kurtags-ghosts/


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

*BEG, BUY, BORROW OR STEAL THIS ...................

*


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Just listening to the late RV Troussova now, a comment someone made ages ago came to mind. Someone said he was at Darmstadt summer school and there was a concert of students’ works at the end - Kurtag was there. And the impression of his contribution was of enormous confidence - listening you are aware that he knows exactly what he wants to achieve and how to make it happen.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

My favourite Kurtag recording is not by Kurtag - this

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...laus-steffen-mahnkopf-hommage-a-gyorgy-kurtag

The comment in the blurb there is curious



> Kurtág represents this sad, mourning, remembering, "nostalgic" consciousness in relation to past culture. The miniaturization and concentration of material is reminiscent of Webern, while his roots in folk culture call Janáček to mind. He writes - using conservative means - a music whose conservative nature is experienced as non-conservative; no other composer achieved this. He is a miracle in the midst of modernity.


The idea there is reminiscent of Finnissy.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Mandryka said:


> You mean this?
> 
> https://marinoformenti.net/kurtags-ghosts/


Yes, it is the double album by Formenti containing a lot of Jatekok pieces but also pieces from famous composers who are dear to Kurtag. There is another album by Marta and Gyorgy Kurtag from ECM , available on Amazon, where they play Jatekok pieces and other composers as well.One must remember that these are Games and that the Kurtags have played a lot. Anyway i think Formenti is a much better pianist.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I don’t know if I like or don’t like. But I listen. Might take me a few years.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

HenryPenfold said:


> *BEG, BUY, BORROW OR STEAL THIS ...................
> 
> *


Now that is very convincing, I will try begging fist, do you have a second copy spare?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I got introduced to Kurtag through the back door on a Mahler No.2 CD by Gielen. Included are Stele, and a Schoenberg piece. Abbado also recorded that work. Gielen's Stele is now included on Edition Vol. 10. I liked Stele so I picked up Kurtag 80, and another 2 disc set which I haven't really warmed to but I'm due for a revisit.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Interesting that not many people here are specially keen Kurtag's music. I mean, he's often mentioned, we've all heard things here and there, everyone likes Kafka Fragments, but when push comes to shove . . .


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

All you people have little knowledge of contemporary music (I hope I will shock you) and Kurtag is not the greatest contemporary composer in terms of creativity. He is just an incredible composer who encapsulates music of the past (his love for Bach is well documented) and interprets it in his own contemporary way. There are many Eastern European contemporary composers, even famous American ones who compose beautiful nostalgic (In the old Style) contemporary works. I promise I will dedicate a thread to all these works which will obviously include Kurtag.The music is so beautiful that the world will take notice.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

justekaia said:


> All you people have little knowledge of contemporary music (I hope I will shock you) and Kurtag is not the greatest contemporary composer in terms of creativity. He is just an incredible composer who encapsulates music of the past (his love for Bach is well documented) and interprets it in his own contemporary way. There are many Eastern European contemporary composers, even famous American ones who compose beautiful nostalgic (In the old Style) contemporary works. I promise I will dedicate a thread to all these works which will obviously include Kurtag.The music is so beautiful that the world will take notice.


Please enlighten us, Herr Justekaia!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mandryka said:


> Interesting that not many people here are specially keen Kurtag's music. I mean, he's often mentioned, we've all heard things here and there, everyone likes Kafka Fragments, but when push comes to shove . . .


All you can do is build awareness of things you like, the rest will follow.

I listened to the 12 microdules and I can make sense of the quote you posted earlier about links to Webern and Janacek. Generally speaking, the post-Webern aesthetic leaves me cold, but I liked how bits of this where like folk or gypsy fiddling. Its like you have these outbursts, which break the tension in a passionate rather than just angsty way. Fire amidst the gloom, if you like.

I first heard about Kurtag when he was mentioned on Simon Rattle's TV series on 20th century music called Leaving Home. That must have been back in the '90's. I can't remember which particular episode, but they're on youtube.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Interesting that not many people here are specially keen Kurtag's music. I mean, he's often mentioned, we've all heard things here and there, everyone likes Kafka Fragments, but when push comes to shove . . .


You wondered if anyone liked Kurtag and asked about summits. Now you poo-poo Kafka Fragments, a summit. What's wrong with you? What do you want?

I feel like we're being told off.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

HenryPenfold said:


> You wondered if anyone liked Kurtag and asked about summits. Now you poo-poo Kafka Fragments, a summit. What's wrong with you? What do you want?
> 
> I feel like we're being told off.


I'm surprised that this possibly important composer has such lukewarm advocacy here.

Kafka Fragments is OK. I saw it in concert once in the Barbican, it was OK. The recording with Caroline Melzer makes the best of it that I've heard.

There used to be Peter Sellars's notes on Kafka Fragments online but it's disappeared. I'd have been curious to see his production.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

starthrower said:


> I got introduced to Kurtag through the back door on a Mahler No.2 CD by Gielen. Included are Stele, and a Schoenberg piece. Abbado also recorded that work. Gielen's Stele is now included on Edition Vol. 10. I liked Stele so I picked up Kurtag 80, and another 2 disc set which I haven't really warmed to but I'm due for a revisit.


Lieder may be the place to focus with Kurtag. The Sayings of Peter Bornemisza, for example. Grisly listening though.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Sid James said:


> All you can do is build awareness of things you like, the rest will follow.
> 
> I listened to the 12 microdules and I can make sense of the quote you posted earlier about links to Webern and Janacek. Generally speaking, the post-Webern aesthetic leaves me cold, but I liked how bits of this where like folk or gypsy fiddling. Its like you have these outbursts, which break the tension in a passionate rather than just angsty way. Fire amidst the gloom, if you like.
> 
> I first heard about Kurtag when he was mentioned on Simon Rattle's TV series on 20th century music called Leaving Home. That must have been back in the '90's. I can't remember which particular episode, but they're on youtube.


I'm not so sure about a connection to Webern, apart from the fact that they both wrote short pieces! Kurtag seems often theatrical or dramatic, maybe excessively so for my taste. Too much paprika.

(I've been listening to op 11 -- settings of a poet who I hadn't heard of before called Janos Polinzky.)


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Mandryka said:


> I'm not so sure about a connection to Webern, apart from the fact that they both wrote short pieces! Kurtag seems often theatrical or dramatic, maybe excessively so for my taste. Too much paprika.
> 
> (I've been listening to op 11 -- settings of a poet who I hadn't heard of before called Janos Polinzky.)


As you probably know by now Pilinszky was a great Hungarian poet who wrote about the atrocities of WW II. While you are at it you can also listen to some solo and chamber works by Kurtag: Pilinszky for cello and piano (Queyras-Tharaud), Pilinszky for bassoon (Gallois), Pilinszky for cello (Isserlis). happy listening


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

justekaia said:


> As you probably know by now Pilinszky was a great Hungarian poet who wrote about the atrocities of WW II. While you are at it you can also listen to some solo and chamber works by Kurtag: Pilinszky for cello and piano (Queyras-Tharaud), Pilinszky for bassoon (Gallois), Pilinszky for cello (Isserlis). happy listening


Indeed, I just found that he's a really important poet -- so I'll be very pleased to read some of his stuff provided I can find a translation in French or English. One thing leads to another.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Yes, I like Kurtag. My impression is similar to Justekaia, that is has a strong link or is a throwback to the past.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I love the early Wind Quintet and specially officium breve I rever and listen almost ritualistically.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I enjoy Kurtag. Along with the Kafka Fragments other favorites include Stele and the 12 Microludes, though I can't say I've disliked anything I've heard by him.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> that is has a strong link or is a throwback to the past.


Why is that? Which past?

I mean, I've not noticed anything like the Schnittke concertos. Or direct quotations like in the Lachenmann piano concerto. So it's not that type of throwback. Neither does it feel quite as clear as the relation to Janacek or Brahms or Mahler in some of Rihm's work.

I think it would be helpful to try and articulate Kurtag's relation to the tradition.

Listening to some of the music for string quartet the composer who came to mind was not anyone from the past, it was Ferneyhough in his sonatas for string quartet.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I'm surprised that this possibly important composer has such lukewarm advocacy here.
> 
> Kafka Fragments is OK. I saw it in concert once in the Barbican, it was OK. The recording with Caroline Melzer makes the best of it that I've heard.
> 
> There used to be Peter Sellars's notes on Kafka Fragments online but it's disappeared. I'd have been curious to see his production.


I've attended a couple of performances of_ Kafka-fragmente _in London, 20-30 years ago, perhaps we were both in the same audience! My response to this work is different to yours. I think it's an absolute masterpiece. But other than this work, save for perhaps _Grabstein_ _Für_ _Stephan_ and _Stele, _I'm not over enamoured. Having said that, going through my CDs, I remember enjoying this very much .............


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

calvinpv said:


> Count me as someone who never really understood the lovefest for Kurtág here on TC. I know it's a me problem, and like Mandryka, I'm open to listening suggestions (as well as any reading suggestions). But two things that kind of turn me off from Kurtág are:
> 1. My attention span has to waver for just a second or two, and I've already missed like 4-5 movements in a work. I know that's an exaggeration, but not really. I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as too short of a work.
> 2. From the very little I've read on Kurtág, a lot of the compositional decisions seem to have an autobiographical dimension to them, reflected in the fact that the subtitles for a lot of his pieces are "tribute to X". While I do sense a sort of humorous element to his music, I feel like the humor is in the form of an inside joke between Kurtág and the dedicatee of the work, a joke I'll never be privy to. Maybe I'm wrong on this.
> 
> ...


Your assumptions regarding the tributes are totally wrong. Uitti and Mihaly were outstanding cellists, Ferenc Farkas was one of Kurtag's teachers, Akmatova and Pilinszky were two great poets, R.Schumann a composer whom Kurtag admired. So these tributes are based on professional criteria. You are right however that you will not be privy to the jokes.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mandryka said:


> I'm not so sure about a connection to Webern, apart from the fact that they both wrote short pieces! Kurtag seems often theatrical or dramatic, maybe excessively so for my taste. Too much paprika.
> 
> (I've been listening to op 11 -- settings of a poet who I hadn't heard of before called Janos Polinzky.)


I think there's more to the Webern link than just brevity. I wasn't only going off the cd notes you quoted (below). I think that Kurtag shares with him a sense of nuance and fine attention to detail.

I like that spice, or warmth. I listened to those Polinzky songs, and I can hear a bit of cimbalom in there too.

This sort of strand of post-WWII music isn't really my cup of tea. Nevertheless, sampling Kurtag based on the information provided here has been interesting.



Mandryka said:


> My favourite Kurtag recording is not by Kurtag - this
> 
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...laus-steffen-mahnkopf-hommage-a-gyorgy-kurtag
> 
> ...


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Kurtag has studied Webern intensively during a few years. So it is not surprising that he is influenced by Webern. He loves Bach and transcribed a lot of his pieces or just played the original to accompany his own pieces. Do not miss his transcription of The Actus tragicus" by Bach available on YT. It is short but you need to listen to it a couple of times so that you are emotionally touched.


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