# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (Round 1, Match 7): Fleming vs Sayao



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Renee Fleming, USA, 1959-






Bidu Sayao, Brazil, 1902-1999






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mimi is a simple character, and simplicity is last thing one would attribute to Renee Fleming's music-making. I felt right away that Thais - or at least Musetta - had found her way into Rodolfo's garret. With many singers, everything they do is more or less equally generic and bland. Fleming is neither of those things, but she brings the same hyperexpressive inflections to almost everything she sings. When her personal manner suits the style and the character the result can be superb, but music calling for a simple, classical line, or unsophisticated characters such as Mimi, don't sound like themselves under Fleming's constant compulsion to "act" with the voice. This aria is far from her worst effort in that respect, but I still want to tell her to just relax and sing.

Sayao is exquisite as always, and sounds completely natural, with no need to make the music bear the weight of a constant striving for expression. Some may feel that Fleming finds more in the music, but what one finds in music and what one imposes on it can be hard to tell apart. To my hearing, Sayao is Mimi, and Fleming is "me! me!"


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

This has been one of the easiest for me! Fleming takes this for a very simple reason. Neither of them is perfect in the role, but Sayoa has a harshness, especially in her upper notes, that seems so far out of character for Mimi that I just can't accept her in the role. At times I found the harshness quite unpleasant. So Fleming it is.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Sayao is exquisite as always, and sounds completely natural, with no need to make the music bear the weight of a constant striving for expression. Some may feel that Fleming finds more in the music, but what one finds in music and what one imposes on it can be hard to tell apart. To my hearing, Sayao is Mimi, and Fleming is "me! me!"


Agree wholeheartedly with Woodduck on this, Fleming is too elaborate and totally out of character (out of this opera, actually).
Sayao is very enjoyable, even if with some traces of harshness, as Aerobat has pointed out. But for me, verismo = truthful, i.e. very much in character. In this Sayao rules out her opponent.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This was almost like a set-up for me.
On the one hand we have the most gorgeous soprano voice in the world who sang everything just perfectly, partially because she was doing a recording. However, she lacked a supporter to help her "feel" the beautiful sounds emitting from her, against, on the other hand, a Mimi who sounded just like a Mimi and not simply like an opera singer singing with a stunning voice but no warmth to back it up.

Dear Mommy: I swear I am not choosing Sayao because she was your favorite as you sang along with her often, and you looked so much like her. I really think that sometimes a "perfect" voice is not enough (as one fine soprano is often quoted as saying)
Hence, Sayao gets my vote.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

As beautiful as Fleming’s voice sounds, the layer of artificiality she applies to most of her work is off-putting to me. Sincerity is lacking, and that is abundant in Sayao’s recording, though the transfer makes her voice sound very harsh. 
It’s Sayao for me!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I'm very curious to see what others say on this difficult pairing. Both are heavenly. Truly. Bayao sounds more like a lady just beyond youth to me which is of course right for the role. Both are emotionally involved, but I found myself connecting more with Fleming's interpretation. I also am sentimentally connected to as her recital with the Seattle Symphony was one of the great musical events in my live musical experience plus she was the most glamorous diva I have ever seen in the flesh. Her voice sounded absolutely ravishing to me here. The high notes were breathtaking!!!!!!!!! The color of her voice so unique and extraordinary. This is one of the best things I've heard Renee do. The best was Bel Raggio in concert with an high Eb wearing Galianos and Tiffany diamonds!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Mimi is a simple character, and simplicity is last thing one would attribute to Renee Fleming's music-making. I felt right away that Thais - or at least Musetta - had found her way into Rodolfo's garret. With many singers, everything they do is more or less equally generic and bland. Fleming is neither of those things, but she brings the same hyperexpressive inflections to almost everything she sings. When her personal manner suits the style and the character the result can be superb, but music calling for a simple, classical line, or unsophisticated characters such as Mimi, don't sound like themselves under Fleming's constant compulsion to "act" with the voice. This aria is far from her worst effort in that respect, but I still want to tell her to just relax and sing.
> 
> Sayao is exquisite as always, and sounds completely natural, with no need to make the music bear the weight of a constant striving for expression. Some may feel that Fleming finds more in the music, but what one finds in music and what one imposes on it can be hard to tell apart. To my hearing, Sayao is Mimi, and Fleming is "me! me!"


I don't mind when someone disagrees with me so much when they present such a beautiful defense of their opinion. I can see your points but my emotions get in the way;-) LOL In my defense I actually am not overly familiar with the character of Mimi as other than arias I haven't seen La Boheme in decades. I know someone will suggest I be booted from this forum now.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

If I remember correctly Pugg was a huge Fleming fan and I haven't heard from him in ages on here. Does anyone know why?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Seattleoperafan said:


> If I remember correctly Pugg was a huge Fleming fan and I haven't heard from him in ages on here. Does anyone know why?


I have wondered this often. Pugg is missed.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I agree pretty much with everything Wodduck has said. Fleming has one of the most beautiful voices of the last thirty years or so and, in the right repertoire, she can be unbeatable, but here she lavishes far more attention on the music than it can take and the essential simplicity and directness of the character gets lost. The singing is altogether too sophisticated. One small point in her favour though. Fleming has often been accused of poor diction, but here her diction is well nigh perfect.

Sayao, on the other hand, is perfectly cast, her manner direct and simple. The recording doesn't help her much, but she is Mimi, whereas Fleming is a bejewelled prima donna in a gorgeous gown.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> If I remember correctly Pugg was a huge Fleming fan and I haven't heard from him in ages on here. Does anyone know why?


I'm pretty sure he's still here but using a different handle.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I agree pretty much with everything Wodduck has said. Fleming has one of the most beautiful voices of the last thirty years or so and, in the right repertoire, she can be unbeatable, but here she lavishes far more attention on the music than it can take and the essential simplicity and directness of the character gets lost. The singing is altogether too sophisticated. One small point in her favour though. Fleming has often been accused of poor diction, but here her diction is well nigh perfect.
> 
> Sayao, on the other hand, is perfectly cast, her manner direct and simple. The recording doesn't help her much, but she is Mimi, whereas Fleming is a bejewelled prima donna in a gorgeous gown.


Bejewelled prima donna in a gorgeous gown is the part that sunk me. I'm too old school gay for my own good sometimes. Your critique of Fleming is beautifully said! In my defense, her high notes blind me by their beauty sometimes to other things that are going on LOL


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## Saxman (Jun 11, 2019)

Sayao has a beautiful voice. But she's like a bull in the china shop. It's Fleming for me. She gives the role more color/nuance in my view.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Saxman said:


> Sayao has a beautiful voice. But she's like a bull in the china shop. It's Fleming for me. She gives the role more color/nuance in my view.


You must have come across some charmingly gentle bulls in your time.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Bejewelled prima donna in a gorgeous gown is the part that sunk me. I'm too old school gay for my own good sometimes. Your critique of Fleming is beautifully said! In my defense, her high notes blind me by their beauty sometimes to other things that are going on LOL


I have equivocal feelings about Fleming. There is no denying the beauty of the voice, nor her technical expertise, and she doesn't simply depend on them. She pays due attention the text and the drama in a role. It's just that sometimes I feel she tries too hard. I have many of her recital records and like best the disc of American arias, the Great Scenes disc and the Strauss Heroines. I find her less suited to the Italian repertoire and got rid of her Bel Canto disc, as it didn't work for me at all. On the other hand I like her Handel disc a lot better than some do. I think her Thaïs is unbeatable and I love her in Mozart.

She is also a wonderfully gracious lady and a serious artist. I once worked with her, when she played Blanche in semi-staged performances of Previn's _A Streetcar Named Desire_ here in London. Though I had a very small role, I had to work quite closely her and she was absolutey lovely. Having her drape herself over my half naked body as she sang was a memory I shall not forget in a hurry.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have equivocal feelings about Fleming. There is no denying the beauty of the voice, nor her technical expertise, and she doesn't simply depend on them. She pays due attention the text and the drama in a role. It's just that sometimes I feel she tries too hard. I have many of her recital records and like best the disc of American arias, the Great Scenes disc and the Strauss Heroines. I find her less suited to the Italian repertoire and got rid of her Bel Canto disc, as it didn't work for me at all. On the other hand I like her Handel disc a lot better than some do. I think her Thaïs is unbeatable and I love her in Mozart.
> 
> She is also a wonderfully gracious lady and a serious artist. I once worked with her, when she played Blanche in semi-staged performances of Previn's _A Streetcar Named Desire_ here in London. Though I had a very small role, I had to work quite closely her and she was absolutey lovely. Having her drape herself over my half naked body as she sang was a memory I shall not forget in a hurry.


OMG, one of my favorite posts ever!! A bed scene with a gorgeous diva!!! We often forget that it has been Mozart that has been the staple of her career and she adamantly attributes her longevity to the discipline it demands. It also reigns in her improvisations. She is also very American and with that often comes over achievement attributes. I wonder if her jazz background influenced her desire to overwork everything. She radiates a persona of a really sweet person who has survived a cut throat business. She is not in the company of the immortals, but she is high in my estimation largely because of the unbelievable beauty of her tone and her amazing range... one of the best ever I believe. Fabulous chest notes and astonishing notes above the staff. The sound of her voice around A5 kills me.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Since some of you are bringing up the topic about the bel canto roles, let's have another look at Sayao vs. Fleming in the fierce aria _Bel raggio lusinghier_:











At first, Sayao's voice does strike as soubrettish or a tad too light for the aria. But after a while, she amazed me not just with the dazing coloratura and tasteful ornamentations, but also with her healthy vocal production: the voice is full, ringing, and rock-solid at the lower notes. In sharp contrast, the first few notes of Fleming suggest that her "weightier" voice and darker timbre could be a natural fit for the music. Yet, a few minutes into the performance, it turns out to be a meh: the coloratura is fussy, the ornamentations bizarre, and worst of all the voice is not free (I can't find the exact words but it sounds noisy and breathy to me).

It's sad that they urged her to do Armida at the Met, but not a complete Die tote Stadt or Das Wunder der Heliane, which would suit her better.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ Sayao is extraordinary. Sheer joy. Thanks. Fleming is her usual self, desperate to make emotional points. At the end it sounds as if she's being tortured.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I heard a story about Sayao and _Bel raggio_. One of her coevals at the Metropolitan Opera said, snidely, that she couldn't sing coloratura. Sayao could be a spitfire; at her next performance as Rosina (*Il barbiere di Siviglia*), she interpolated _Bel raggio lusinghiero_ into the Lesson Scene (in those days, nobody sang _Contro in cor_) just to, "show her."

I never liked Fleming's vapid singing, and her attempts to appliqué emotions to her phrases don't work for me. The kindest thing I can say about the aria above, is that it doesn't suit her.

Madame Sayao is my choice.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't mind when someone disagrees with me so much when they present such a beautiful defense of their opinion. I can see your points but my emotions get in the way;-) LOL In my defense I actually am not overly familiar with the character of Mimi as other than arias I haven't seen La Boheme in decades. I know someone will suggest I be booted from this forum now.


You ain't goin' nowhere SOF. I need you right here. You are one of the reasons I must show up on this forum. Just keep sayin' what yer sayin'!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> Since some of you are bringing up the topic about the bel canto roles, let's have another look at Sayao vs. Fleming in the fierce aria _Bel raggio lusinghier_:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fleming could have assured successful revivals of these works. Her expressionistic approach to music would have been more at home there.

I'm moved to observe that a singer unsurpassed in late romantic German opera and notable for her intense expressiveness, Lotte Lehmann, never gave the impression that her expressive inflections were applied or arbitrary. I can't recall her ever resorting to straight tone, sighing, crooning, or breathiness. The feeling was IN the musical line, not hung on it like Christmas tree ornaments, or slathered onto it like a layer of frosting so thick you can hardly tell what sort of cake is buried underneath.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sayao's version is stunning, full of exuberance, spontaneity and joy. I could have done without the extended Lucia-like cadenza, beautifully executed though it is, but in all other respects this is one of the best versions I've heard; up there with Sutherland's version on _Art of the Prima Donna_.

Fleming just reinforces my opinion that _bel canto_ was not for her. Hardly a line or phrase goes by without her sliding or crooning, and it's all so knowing, with expression applied from without rather than within, and the coloartura, though accurate enough, sounds effortful compared to Sayao (and indeed Sutherland in her version). Schwarzkopf comes in for a lot of carping for being a "mannered" singer, but she was never so self-consciously mannered as this.

What a shame. It tarnishes my view of a singer whom I lreally enjoy in other repertoire.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> You ain't goin' nowhere SOF. I need you right here. You are one of the reasons I must show up on this forum. Just keep sayin' what yer sayin'!


Ya'll made my day. Back at you. These contests are the best things ever. They bring out the best in us.


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