# Otto Klemperer fans...your favorite recordings



## Itullian

I'm a big fan of Otto's work and was wondering, if you're a fan of Otto's, or even if not, what your favorite recordings of his are?
Thanks :tiphat:


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## david johnson

Mahler, Sym 2, Philharmonia, as well as his Brahms and Beethoven symphony boxes with the same forces are recordings I really enjoy.


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## joen_cph

- Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde/Ludwig/EMI
- Bach's St.Matthew Passion/Schwarzkopf/EMI 
- Mahler's 2nd/CtGebouw,Ferrier/Decca (exemplifying his 'wilder' period)

would be the chosen ones for me.


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## Malx

Here are a couple of inexpensive boxes worth looking out for:

View attachment 118984


View attachment 118985


The above box contains a live Beethoven cycle recorded with the Philharmonia which I find overall more satisfying than his studio recordings - not that they are bad. You also get a very decent Brahms set from Rudolf Kempe.

I also love his recording of Wagner's Flying Dutchman.

In fact most of the EMI, now Warner boxes are well worth considering.


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## Becca

In no particular order...

Mahler - Symphony #2 - I would take the live Bavarian RSO performance very slightly over the studio Philharmonia
Bruckner - Symphony #6
Brahms - German Requiem
Beethoven - Fidelio - I am only familiar with the studio recording
Beethoven - Missa Solemnis
Mozart - Horn Concerti with Alan Civil - about as un-Klemperian as they come!
Wagner - Der Fliegende Hollander
Wagner - The orchestral excerpts (aka bleeding chunks!)

There are also numerous other intriguing recordings which, for various reasons, come close to the above list...
The Beethoven piano concerti with Barenboim
Bruckner symphonies 4 & 7
A fascinating Petrouchka
Mendelssohn's incidental music for Midsummer Night's Dream 
Mahler's 9th


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## Merl

I'm not a Klemperer fan, per se, but he did make some really good recordings. I like his Brahms cycle the best of all his output.


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## CnC Bartok

I like everything I've got from Otto, some great Brahms, Beethoven, Bruckner, Mahler, and some great Mozart too.

The one exception has to be his god-awful, mogadon inspired Mahler Seventh...


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## Mandryka

In Brahms 1, in the first movement, there's a kind of intro and then a pause and the entry of a new tune. That pause is, IMO, one of the best pauses in music, and there's a recording by Klemperer which judges it to a tee, you could have a heart attack in that pause, such is the anticipation he creates.

Same for his mono eroica where the pauses between each of those chords which mark the opening of the first movement contains the silence of the universe before Genesis 1.

That being said, if I could only keep one thing by Klemperer it would probably by Mozart -- not The Magic Flute for me (don't like the music), or THE Gran Partita (you can do better) but rather this









or Bach, the Brandenburgs maybe.


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## Bourdon

Mandryka said:


> In Brahms 1, in the first movement, there's a kind of intro and then a pause and the entry of a new tune. That pause is, IMO, one of the best pauses in music, and there's a recording by Klemperer which judges it to a tee, you could have a heart attack in that pause, such is the anticipation he creates.
> 
> Same for his mono eroica where the pauses between each of those chords which mark the opening of the first movement contains the silence of the universe before Genesis 1.
> 
> That being said, if I could only keep one thing by Klemperer it would probably by Mozart -- not The Magic Flute for me (don't like the music), but rather this
> 
> View attachment 119018


 *Well said, Mandryka, I just listened to 29 and I would like to shout*
* We want more Otto *


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## flamencosketches

I'm not a Klemperer fan, or at least I have hardly heard any of his recordings. What I have heard is the Brahms Deutsches Requiem that he recorded with the Philharmonia, Schwarzkopf and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, and it's really, really good. Very powerful music and he has a great touch with it. It's rare that I'm won over by Brahms orchestral music, so I have been tempted to go for Klemperer's Brahms cycle on Warner while it's still cheap. @Mandryka, your above description of the Brahms 1 that he recorded with them reinforces that–are you referring to the recording he did with Philharmonia, the one that's on that box?

Additionally I enjoyed his Mozart 40th. Going to look into more of his Mozart. With Mozart, I always like the old, distinguished German/Austrian conductors: Böhm, Walter etc.


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## DavidA

Mahler - Symphony #2 and Song of Earth with Ludwig / Wunderlich
Brahms - German Requiem
Beethoven Symphonies 6 and 7 The rest are too measured and can be boring
His Bach St Matthew is hopelessly anachronistic
People rave about the Fidelio but I have only found disappointment in the lack of drama in the conducting 
His Missa solemnis is marred by inadequate soloists


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## Itullian

Mandryka said:


> In Brahms 1, in the first movement, there's a kind of intro and then a pause and the entry of a new tune. That pause is, IMO, one of the best pauses in music, and there's a recording by Klemperer which judges it to a tee, you could have a heart attack in that pause, such is the anticipation he creates.
> 
> Same for his mono eroica where the pauses between each of those chords which mark the opening of the first movement contains the silence of the universe before Genesis 1.
> 
> That being said, if I could only keep one thing by Klemperer it would probably by Mozart -- not The Magic Flute for me (don't like the music), or THE Gran Partita (you can do better) but rather this
> 
> View attachment 119018
> 
> 
> or Bach, the Brandenburgs maybe.


I have to get that!!


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## Itullian

I love all the Warner boxes and have them all.
Fabulous buys.
He always digs deep into the music.
Guess I'm just a Klemperer guy.


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## SixFootScowl

Not particularly a fan of Klemperer, but I do like this recording very much:


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## Itullian

This recording is jaw dropping to me.
I wish I could have seen him live.
And it's stereo!


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## Guest

My absolute favorite is his recording of the Mahler 2 - but not the GROC recording. I prefer the live recording with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.
But I am in general a huge fan of his. I have his recordings of the Beethoven symphonies on EMI, which I love. 
His Brahms symphonies are also great, but his recording of the German Requiem is spectacular. Ditto for Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.
I highly recommend his recording of Mozart's Magic Flute - it stirred my interest in classical music.
Finally, I don't own it, but have listened to his recording of Bach's St. Matthew Passion several times, and highly recommend it. I have never been disappointed by any of his recordings.


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## Itullian

I think his Haydn symphonies are wonderful.


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## DarkAngel

Itullian said:


> I love all the Warner boxes and have them all.
> Fabulous buys.
> He always digs deep into the music.
> Guess I'm just a Klemperer guy.


The new boxes are super sweet........*Brahms boxset* is overall my favorite Klemp boxset

The *Bruckner boxset* has two gems, the B6 is the best I have heard and his B4 ranks up near the very top










Live 57 B9 I would rank in top 5 of all available 9ths, a really thrilling performance (seriously)
(Hans Hotter on loan from Bayreuth)










The best DLVDE available, this is really the prize of his Mahler work even compared to M2


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## tortkis

Itullian said:


> This recording is jaw dropping to me.
> I wish I could have seen him live.
> And it's stereo!


I liked the EMI Beethoven symphonies box a lot. (edit: I realized that it is not the recording with Philharmonia Orchestra...) I think Klemperer used divided 1st & 2nd violins seating, which was not so common then. Other favorite recordings are Mendelssohn, Brahms Symphony No. 1 (EMI), Bach Orchestral suite (Testament), and this album of modern compositions. His string quartet was not so impressive, but Merry Waltz on this disc is a lovely, memorable short piece.


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## flamencosketches

DarkAngel said:


> The new boxes are super sweet........*Brahms boxset* is overall my favorite Klemp boxset
> 
> The *Bruckner boxset* has two gems, the B6 is the best I have heard and his B4 ranks up near the very top
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> Live 57 B9 I would rank in top 5 of all available 9ths, a really thrilling performance (seriously)
> (Hans Hotter on loan from Bayreuth)
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> The best DLVDE available, this is really the prize of his Mahler work even compared to M2


Damn, Wunderlich as a soloist. I must hear this one. I don't have a DLvdE in my collection yet. I was thinking Reiner as I love his 4th, but may give Klemperer a try.


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## Becca

tortkis said:


> ) I think Klemperer used divided 1st & 2nd violins seating, which was not so common then.


Actually it was very common and has become much less so since then.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> Damn, Wunderlich as a soloist. I must hear this one. I don't have a DLvdE in my collection yet. I was thinking Reiner as I love his 4th, but may give Klemperer a try.


The Reiner is also a very fine recording. Honestly, my favorite DLvdE is Kubelik's live recording on Audite conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, with Janet Baker and Waldemar Kmentt. There is an embarrassment of riches of fine DLvdE recordings.


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## wkasimer

Becca said:


> Actually it [divided 1st and 2nd violins] was very common and has become much less so since then.


I've never really understood why conductors usually prefer to bury the seconds behind the first violins. I assume that it has something to do with directionality of the sound, but putting the cellos right upstage means that their sound isn't getting out optimally.

I finally convinced the conductor of my community orchestra to try splitting the violins, and I think that he likes it.


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## Becca

Here is the second half of a talk by Herbert Blomstedt who believes in dividing the violins (I haven't yet found the first half of it)


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## Mandryka

Anyone like his Tchaikowsky?


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## Guest

Mandryka said:


> Anyone like his Tchaikowsky?


I haven't heard it, but would definitely give it a shot. Most of my music purchases are over iTunes, and that isn't available.


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## jimsumner

Much of his Mahler is very good, especially his Das Lied. But a word of warning about his Mahler 7. Perversely fascinating but don't touch it unless you have a half-dozen or so mainstream Mahler 7s and want an alternative. Odysseus got back from Troy in less time.


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## BBrandonBarker

So many. I like how he paces things and brings out detail. Some people think he's slow but I think he's just laying it out for us to hear the important details. Tops is his Das Lied, next his St. Matthew Passion... his Metamorphosen and then his Mahler 2 and 9. I hope his work is always in print.


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## premont

DarkAngel said:


> Live 57 B9 I would rank in top 5 of all available 9ths, a really thrilling performance (seriously)
> (Hans Hotter on loan from Bayreuth)


I very much agree with this. This live recording with a line up quite similar to the contemporary studio recording is my favorite, when it comes to B9. All, but particularly Hotter are in excellent vocal condition.

Other than this B9, the mono Eroica (with Philharmonia orch.), the mono Pastoral (with the Vienna Symphony orchestra on Vox), the Brandenburg concertos (also Philharmonia orch.) and the Brahms 4 (still Philharmonia orch.) are some of my Klemperer favorites.


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## flamencosketches

Bump.

I'm a big Klemperer fan now, almost a year from when this thread was started.

My favorites are his Brahms symphonies, overtures, and Requiem; his Mahler 2 & Das Lied (7 is a step too far for me, though it is fascinating—haven't heard his 9th); & his Beethoven Missa Solemnis. I ought to hear more of his Mozart and Bruckner. I learned recently that Klemperer has the distinction of having both the fastest and the slowest Mahler 2nd on record (both live recordings from roughly 20 years apart, the slow one being very late in his career). 

I wonder why it seems his Bruckner is all that respected, especially compared to such names as Furtwangler, Celibidache, Jochum etc. It seems he has just the right temperament to hit it home with Bruckner, yet I only ever hear people talk about his Bruckner 6th. (I know his 8th controversially omits a lot of music in one of the movements and so it's a nonstarter for some.)


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## Becca

As to the 8th, IIRC it was about 240 bars but as it was only in the last movement, you can pretend it is like the 9th and that the last movement was never finished, so you end after the 3rd and claim that it is 'perfect that way'


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## Allegro Con Brio

Klemperer is an acquired taste - the very consistent, dedicated beat; constantly pushing forward without any sentimental lingering; is not for everyone. In some repertoire (i.e. the just plain silly St. Matthew Passion and Bruckner 8) he goes over the top and it starts to become unlistenable for me. Then again he's another conductor who was radically different in his early days and which I haven't explored enough from those days to judge him more fully. But most of the time in the later recordings; the absolute discipline and commitment that he draws from his forces amounts to great music-making. Another quibble about all the Philharmonia studio recordings that he's known for it the super dry sound quality, which makes it sound like it was recorded in someone's living room with absolutely no reverb. My absolute #1 recording from him is his Bach Mass in B Minor. That may be surprising since I'm not a fan of his St. Matthew, but this Mass was the first recording of _anything_ that I fell in love with, listened to repeatedly, and which launched my obsession with comparing performances. Previously all I had heard were rushed HIP versions, and once I heard the enormous emotional weight of Klemperer's vision and the incredibly dedicated singing of his choir, I could never go back. Other favorites:

- Mozart: It wouldn't sound like Klemperer would be all that great in music that demands lightness, buoyancy, and grace. But he provides all those things and more despite his slow tempi! The split violins help bring out some great inner details, and he still throttle up the speed when needed (as in the finale of the Jupiter).

- Brahms: His stereo Brahms cycle is a major benchmark for me, possibly making up my top 3 along with Walter and Jochum. There is weight, power, and lyricism in perfect proportion; especially in the 1st and 2nd which are nearly untopped IMO. The 4th is very idiosyncratic but still worth a listen. His German Requiem is of course a classic but I would recommend Kempe '55 and maybe even Gardiner and Sinopoli above it.

- Beethoven: Haven't heard his whole cycle, but the stereo 3rd and 6th are superb and are both conducted perfectly to my ears, even though the first movement of the 3rd does not quite match the tempo criteria of my username.

I find his studio Mahler 2 somewhat overrated. Though his breathless moving forward can be thrilling, he doesn't really dig deep enough into Mahler's psychological journey and the final climax seems cold; though he has perhaps the greatest pair of soloists on record for this symphony. The Mahler 7 is downright off-the-wall, but I actually think it works in parts. I have not, however, added my name to the exclusive "I listened to Klemperer's Mahler 7 straight through in one sitting" club yet.


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## flamencosketches

^Which Jochum Brahms do you like? I've been meaning to get into Walter's Brahms too. Couldn't disagree more re: Mahler 2. I adore that recording, and I would never say that it's lacking in depth.


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## Becca

If you are prepared to dig and deal with so-so mono sound, there are some fascinating and unusual post 1950 repertoire out there (unusual if you ignore what Klemperer was doing in the 20s & 30s), e.g. Shostakovich/9th, Janacek/Sinfonietta, Stravinsky/Pulcinella, Bartok/Viola concerto, De Falla/Nights in the Gardens of Spain, also Debussy, Schoenberg and even Gershwin!


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> ^Which Jochum Brahms do you like? I've been meaning to get into Walter's Brahms too. Couldn't disagree more re: Mahler 2. I adore that recording, and I would never say that it's lacking in depth.


Both Jochum's mono cycle with the BPO and stereo with the LSO are about as good as you can get in terms of Brahms conducting. They are probably tied for my #1 overall Brahms cycles (and I'm a hardcore Brahms fiend who's probably heard 20+ cycles). There is very little difference between the two (besides the weightier BPO sound) so I would go for the LSO stereo set. You will not be disappointed! I've never heard such amazing warmth of phrasing and depth of interpretation in these symphonies.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Both Jochum's mono cycle with the BPO and stereo with the LSO are about as good as you can get in terms of Brahms conducting. They are probably tied for my #1 overall Brahms cycles (and I'm a hardcore Brahms fiend who's probably heard 20+ cycles). There is very little difference between the two (besides the weightier BPO sound) so I would go for the LSO stereo set. You will not be disappointed! I've never heard such amazing warmth of phrasing and depth of interpretation in these symphonies.


Thanks! I've been looking at the Berlin mono set (among others). I love Klemperer's Brahms, but I think it's time to check out other conductors in his music.


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## Malx

flamencosketches said:


> ^Which Jochum Brahms do you like? I've been meaning to get into Walter's Brahms too. Couldn't disagree more re: Mahler 2. I adore that recording, and I would never say that it's lacking in depth.


I agree that Klemperer's Mahler 2 doesn't lack depth what it may lack is an element of the emotional angst that some believe is required in Mahler.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Malx said:


> I agree that Klemperer's Mahler 2 doesn't lack depth what it may lack is an element of the emotional angst that some believe is required in Mahler.


Yes. There is a constant, unsentimental pressing-forward. This definitely maintains my interest, but I just wish there was a bit more flexibility.


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yes. There is a constant, unsentimental pressing-forward. This definitely maintains my interest, but I just wish there was a bit more flexibility.


What are some of your favorite Mahler 2 recordings?


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> What are some of your favorite Mahler 2 recordings?


Bernstein/NY is my gold standard. The notes just explode off the page; it's a true epic narrative, with a final climax that makes it seem like I'm levitating out of my chair. Others I love are Rattle/CBSO (featuring Janet Baker's amazing Urlicht) and Tennstedt/LSO. I don't dislike Klemperer, but perhaps I see it as relatively chaste since I love Bernstein so much.


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## The3Bs

I do not have much Klemperer but have 2 CD that would make desert island discs:









The Beethoven 3rd Symphony paired with the Große Fuge 
I can forgive and forget all the rest as this has IMHO the best Marcia Funebre (Adagio Assai) on record.

The Mahler 2nd Symphony


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Bernstein/NY is my gold standard. The notes just explode off the page; it's a true epic narrative, with a final climax that makes it seem like I'm levitating out of my chair. Others I love are Rattle/CBSO (featuring Janet Baker's amazing Urlicht) and Tennstedt/LSO. I don't dislike Klemperer, but perhaps I see it as relatively chaste since I love Bernstein so much.


Great choice! Bernstein/NY is my other favorite, it's a wonderful recording. And I'll say this much: he totally nails the Urlicht (w/ Jennie Tourel) like no one I've ever heard, the slow tempo lets it breathe. Wait, if you wouldn't mind clarifying; I assumed you meant the earlier recording, Sony/Columbia, but I see his DG recording is also with New York. Which did you mean?

I actually listened to some samples of both Tennstedt/LPO and Rattle/CBSO in the 2nd earlier today. I'm thinking of getting one of those.


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## Knorf

wkasimer said:


> I've never really understood why conductors usually prefer to bury the seconds behind the first violins. I assume that it has something to do with directionality of the sound, but putting the cellos right upstage means that their sound isn't getting out optimally.
> 
> I finally convinced the conductor of my community orchestra to try splitting the violins, and I think that he likes it.


It was standard practice to divide the violins I and II antiphonally until well after WW1. The main culprit for grouping them was for monophonic recording, where the orchestra sounds richer when recorded for only a single channel. Stokowski in particular thought so. Also, maintaining good ensemble togetherness is easier for the violins I and II, when they're grouped. When you get no benefit from antiphonal effects in mono, why bother?

So what was a mitigation of tone, a practice in monophonic recording, arrived over in the concert hall, and then became entrenched. Stokowski first, if that's not folklore. It was maintained by many even into the stereo recording era, and here we are.

Few string players, too few conductors, or not many among anyone else realize something that should be very, very obvious from score study: composers expected and wrote for antiphonal violins.

I prefer divided strings as a listener. You discover that Brahms, for one example, was a skillful orchestrator, when his music is played with divided violins. It clarifies the counterpoint humongously.


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## Knorf

Oh, and I love Klemperer's Philharmonia Mahler 2 and Bruckner 6.


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## Becca

There are some conductors who always divide the strings, Herbert Blomstedt (as noted earlier) is one, also Daniel Harding. Simon Rattle seems to do it about half the time.


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## Becca

Knorf said:


> Oh, and I love Klemperer's Philharmonia Mahler 2 and Bruckner 6.


Have you heard is live BRSO Mahler 2nd? Very similar to the studio but has that extra frisson that a live performance can generate.


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## Allegro Con Brio

flamencosketches said:


> Great choice! Bernstein/NY is my other favorite, it's a wonderful recording. And I'll say this much: he totally nails the Urlicht (w/ Jennie Tourel) like no one I've ever heard, the slow tempo lets it breathe. Wait, if you wouldn't mind clarifying; I assumed you meant the earlier recording, Sony/Columbia, but I see his DG recording is also with New York. Which did you mean?
> 
> I actually listened to some samples of both Tennstedt/LPO and Rattle/CBSO in the 2nd earlier today. I'm thinking of getting one of those.


I've only heard the earlier one on Sony/Columbia. That cycle is pretty much my standard for Mahler, even though I hugely prefer individual recordings rather than cycles. The only other cycle I would say is largely consistent (though I haven't heard them all) is the Kubelik.


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## Knorf

Becca said:


> Have you heard is live BRSO Mahler 2nd? Very similar to the studio but has that extra frisson that a live performance can generate.


Clearly I need to. The list is endless!


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## Becca

Here is a Klemperian oddity for you ... I knew that he didn't like the coda of Mendelssohn's Scottish and tried to persuade Walter Legge to let him use his own coda rewrite in the recording, but wasn't able to get away with it. Apparently he did do his own in other live performances including this one with the Bavarian RSO from 1969


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## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I've only heard the earlier one on Sony/Columbia. That cycle is pretty much my standard for Mahler, even though I hugely prefer individual recordings rather than cycles. The only other cycle I would say is largely consistent (though I haven't heard them all) is the Kubelik.


Bernstein/Sony was my first and only Mahler cycle. I love it dearly. I completely agree that individual recordings are the way to go, but some sick instinct is telling me I ought to get another one... & Kubelík is a strong contender.

@Knorf, I knew there was something special about Klemperer's Brahms... when I first heard it, I really did pick up on things I hadn't ever noticed in other recordings. I didn't love Brahms until I heard Klemperer's take on his music. I have no doubt the violin placement had something to do with it.


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## Knorf

Klemperer's Brahms is truly excellent. I struggle with the tone of their principal oboist, though, in the Philharmonia cycle. So bright and pinched, and Brahms Symphonies have _so many_ oboe solos...

It probably won't bother most people, though. The bassoons sound great, which of course is more important anyway.


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## wkasimer

Becca said:


> There are some conductors who always divide the strings, Herbert Blomstedt (as noted earlier) is one, also Daniel Harding. Simon Rattle seems to do it about half the time.


I actually managed to convince my community orchestra conductor to divide the violins for a concert a couple of years ago, and he's stuck with it.


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## Bill H.

Knorf said:


> Clearly I need to. The list is endless!


And don't forget the Mahler 2 he conducted at the 1951 Holland Festival, which features Kathleen Ferrier in the "Urlicht". It seems more urgent than the famous stereo version, being about 7-8 minutes shorter.

There's a nice survey (with opinions) of OK's recordings that Peter Gutmann put together just last year: 
http://classicalnotes.net/features/klemperer.html


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## Brahmsianhorn

Bach, Mass in B minor

Beethoven, Eroica (live ‘57 and stereo) and Pastoral (stereo)

Brahms, 2nd

Bruckner, 4th (live 1966 Bavarian)

Mahler, 2nd (‘51 and live ‘65 EMI), 7th, and 9th


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## Mathias Broucek

Becca said:


> Have you heard is live BRSO Mahler 2nd? Very similar to the studio but has that extra frisson that a live performance can generate.


A fantastic performance. The start is a little weak but it gains momentum....

Otherwise, I'm a big fan of his Brahms and his (not too late) Beethoven


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## Rogerx

Otto Nossan Klemperer (14 May 1885 - 6 July 1973)


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## vincula

I enjoy Klemperer's Mozart a great deal. I can't hear anything slow or rigid in it. I find it very engaging, as least in these set of live recordings I'm currently enjoying:









Fastest shipping from Japan ever!

Regards,

Vincula


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## flamencosketches

Anyone into his Wagner? I don't know if he ever recorded a complete opera, but he's got a multi-disc set on EMI of orchestral music + the entire Act I of Walküre (was he planning on recording the whole thing?)... it's tempting.


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## Granate

^^

I wish he had recorded for EMI a Studio Ring at the same time than Solti. I like his conducting of Wagner operas in the Budapest years, but I find boring his studio _Dutchman_ the same way that others think his studio _Fidelio_ is too slow. We rarely seem to agree on anything when it comes to his Opera recordings.

Archiphon has recently uploaded to Spotify his Cologne _Don Giovanni_ from 1955. It sounded very intereresting.


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## Joachim Raff

I find Klemperer's approach suits certain composers more than others. His Mozart i find totally engaging. The rhythms and spatial detail make the listening experience so enjoyable. Never rushed, always let the music speak for itself. Funny enough, this approach works with Dvorak's New World. The scherzo is to die for and the slower movement actually taken at a brisker pace than normal renditions. The whole symphony seems to flow like no other version.


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