# The Observational Astronomy Thread



## Room2201974

This is a spill over of a conversation that broke out in another thread. Rather than interrupting that thread, it's better to continue the conversation here.

So this thread is dedicated to talking about equipment, dark sites, web sites and favorite targets of observational astronomy. I'll go first.

I own an old C8, a solid, dependable and outdated scope that I purchased many years ago second hand from one of the astronomy websites. I also own an Orion short tube 80. However, most of my observational astronomy work now is done with 50mm and 70mm binoculars and a lounge chair. I used to do a lot of galaxy hunting with the C8 back when I lived in a more rural location. Now, due to a move, I've lost much of the night sky to light pollution. I've also used a binoviewer with the C8 for planetary views. If you've never seen Jupiter through a binovierwer you are missing something special.

Many years ago I also owned one of the legendary scopes of the last 30 years - a "red tube" 10" Coulter dob. I didn't keep it too long however after I did several nights of side by side comp with the C8 and discovered there wasn't enough difference in the observational power between the two scopes. And this was before clock drives on dobs, so the Coulter was really more of a hassle to me than the C8.

The highlight of my observational history happened during a three week visit to the Philippines a couple of years ago. There, in the month of February, I had several perfect observing nights, and the Southern Cross all to myself! Stunning views!


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## Strange Magic

Way to go, Room! My backyard astronomy began in the 1950s with a 60 mm Unitron refractor, back when skies were relatively dark even in suburbia. I remember how delighted I was in splitting Polaris. I wandered into other interests, but came back into informal astronomy about 20 years ago with the purchase of a Teleview Ranger 70 mm refractor which I posted about using to watch the transit of Mercury. For a bit, I've also owned a 12-inch dob and a 6-inch dob, both big and/or heavy. My only other scope now is a short, lightweight Vixen 8-inch Newtonian mounted on a homemade dobsonian mount. But the light pollution here in my current location is severe, so I mostly limit myself to solar and lunar viewing and the brighter clusters and planets. I agree that, for beginners especially, much can be seen in dark sky regions with binoculars--I recall how delighted I was as a kid when i found that the moons of Jupiter that Galileo saw, i could also see with a pair of 7X binoculars!

I envy your visit to a place where you could see the Southern Cross--echoes of CS&N ring in my ears. To see Omega Centauri, the Magellanic Clouds, etc., would be a dream--so much to see in the southern skies. Happy seeing!


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## KenOC

And to accompany those stunning clear views, *Beneath the Southern Cross* from _Victory at Sea_.


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## mikeh375

My story also starts off modestly with a small refractor on an alt/azi mount as a kid. When I got married, my wife's wedding present was a pair of 15X80 binoculars and tripod. Soon after I built a 6" Newtonian on a dobsonian base. I was going to grind my own mirror but life never gave me the time as I was writing music for media then. In the end I purchased the mirrors and a finder scope, but did manage to make everything else.

Today I have a goto 10" Schmitt Cassegrain from Meade and she's lovely. I'm fortunate enough to live under reasonably dark skies in England with just a touch of light pollution on the northern horizon. We also have a big open sky and I can see a good 250 degrees -ish of horizon. I would have loved to build a shed with a slide off roof, but probably wont bother now. I did lay a concrete triangular base that fits the tripod and is oriented north for ease of levelling and set up.

The goto functionality is rather neat in that I can bring up facts about whatever the scope is pointing at and although, being old school, I can find my way around the sky without help, the added functionality is a great help in remembering facts. 

It's always a thrill to look through the scope and peer back in time. One day I might try astrophotography, I've got the books, but not so much the time. I also like the look of some of the solar scopes available, anyone got one?


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## Strange Magic

Nothing quite so uncenters one from a fixation on human hubbub and self-involvement as quiet hours under the starry infinite. One gets a sense of perspective, and a clearing of mental cobwebs. Sort of like fishing,... for some--the urge to catch fish, and then just the experience of being out there fishing.....

Luckily, there is still a fine magazine linking backyard astronomers both to their peers and to the scientific professionals--_Sky & Telescope_, unlike another of my loves, open water kayaking, where the linking publication--_Sea Kayaker Magazine_--died a number of years ago as people aged out of the interest, got sick, became couch potatoes.


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## mikeh375

Strange Magic said:


> Nothing quite so uncenters one from a fixation on human hubbub and self-involvement as quiet hours under the starry infinite. One gets a sense of perspective, and a clearing of mental cobwebs. Sort of like fishing,... for some--the urge to catch fish, and then just the experience of being out there fishing.....
> 
> Luckily, there is still a fine magazine linking backyard astronomers both to their peers and to the scientific professionals--_Sky & Telescope_, unlike another of my loves, open water kayaking, where the linking publication--_Sea Kayaker Magazine_--died a number of years ago as people aged out of the interest, got sick, became couch potatoes.


Totally agree StrangeM. It's quite humbling once you understand what you are looking at. I get awed just thinking about the light years it has taken those photons to reach our retinas going at c.186,000 miles per sec.. I tend to get my info online these days, but I used to get S&T often, glad to know it's still there. I love looking at the moon in high magnification on a clear crisp night but only when in a phase and not full. I'm still hunting along the terminator for the alien bases you see on YouTube...:lol:
Humbling though stargazing is, I still nevertheless wish it wasn't so bloody cold at times.


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## Strange Magic

Mike, you may be interested to learn that S&T was recently "sold"--if that's the term--to the American Astronomical Society, who agreed to take it over as is, as a means of strengthening interaction between the professionals and the amateur community. There are a growing number of very sophisticated and dedicated amateur astronomers with the equipment now to do serious observing that can be either tapped into by the professionals or is truly collaborative. This should guarantee decades of future health for S&T. I just hope they retain the print edition also far into the future.


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## Luchesi

At the National Observatory of Athens (NOA) I observed the sun day after day. Razdow and radio telescope and polarimeter and short wave fade.

We had a slip of paper taped to our teletype machine which said;

"And all this science I don't understand, it's just my job five days a week." Elton John


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## Room2201974

Strange Magic said:


> Mike, you may be interested to learn that S&T was recently "sold"--if that's the term--to the American Astronomical Society, who agreed to take it over as is, as a means of strengthening interaction between the professionals and the amateur community. There are a growing number of very sophisticated and dedicated amateur astronomers with the equipment now to do serious observing that can be either tapped into by the professionals or is truly collaborative. This should guarantee decades of future health for S&T. I just hope they retain the print edition also far into the future.


AAVSO - The American Association of Variable Star Observers - made up largely of amateurs - has made significant contributions to our understanding of the stellar life of these types of stars. Our local university has a 16" Schmidt Cassegrain devoted to asteroid tracking - feeding their info directly to Harvard's database.

BTW - anyone else bummed that there is a full moon during Geminids this year? I love the greenies!


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## Luchesi

The border between the Klingon and the Romulan Star Empire rises tonight at midnight, so be careful out there. Because Regulus is three quarters of the way to their border from here.


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## mikeh375

Luchesi said:


> The border between the Klingon and the Romulan Star Empire rises tonight at midnight, so be careful out there. Because Regulus is three quarters of the way to their border from here.


 Borders eh? We in the UK should be thinking of doing a trade deal with the Romulans and Klingons - we are going to need all the help we can get.

ackplack grobpkewspleckk (is that Klingon?)


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## mikeh375

Strange Magic said:


> Mike, you may be interested to learn that S&T was recently "sold"--if that's the term--to the American Astronomical Society, who agreed to take it over as is, as a means of strengthening interaction between the professionals and the amateur community. There are a growing number of very sophisticated and dedicated amateur astronomers with the equipment now to do serious observing that can be either tapped into by the professionals or is truly collaborative. This should guarantee decades of future health for S&T. I just hope they retain the print edition also far into the future.


How cool it is to be able to contribute valuable data to a profession in that way as an amateur. I never did serious and more importantly, consistent observation that would be of any use - I was and am doing it for the reasons you cited in post5. In the early days as a kid, I was into pencil drawing features I could see on the moon and planets and did build up a scrapbook.

@Room2201974...

I remember I persuaded my wife to stay outside with me one winter evening to see the Leonid shower. It was cold but we braved it on our sun beds and under duvets. Didn't see a damn thing because we both fell asleep...ok, I'll admit there was wine involved too. We where awoken by a badger fight a few yards from us that scared the bejeezus out of us in the pitch black.


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## Room2201974

mikeh375 said:


> @Room2201974...
> 
> I remember I persuaded my wife to stay outside with me one winter evening to see the Leonid shower. It was cold but we braved it on our sun beds and under duvets. Didn't see a damn thing because we both fell asleep...ok, I'll admit there was wine involved too. We where awoken by a badger fight a few yards from us that scared the bejeezus out of us in the pitch black.


Trying to do observational astronomy in Florida comes with a caveat: to get to a dark site in the State means that you have to go to a remote area and share the space with the local fauna. Our local Astronomy club constantly reminds folks that we share our site with gators, serpens.....and sometimes scorpius.


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## Strange Magic

^^^^Until recently, many of the biggest and best comets were first spotted by serious amateurs scanning the skies for just such: Hale-Bopp, Hyakutake, Shoemaker-Levy, etc. Nowadays the skies are being watched constantly by the insect-like compound eyes of camera arrays and other sorts of all-seeing technology. It will be interesting to see the degree to which AI increasingly will tease out celestial phenomena that formerly were the province of human eyes and brains. Edmund Halley, your era may be ending!


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## mikeh375

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^^Until recently, many of the biggest and best comets were first spotted by serious amateurs scanning the skies for just such: Hale-Bopp, Hyakutake, Shoemaker-Levy, etc. Nowadays the skies are being watched constantly by the insect-like compound eyes of camera arrays and other sorts of all-seeing technology. It will be interesting to see the degree to which AI increasingly will tease out celestial phenomena that formerly were the province of human eyes and brains. Edmund Halley, your era may be ending!


Adaptive optics are a brilliant way to counter atmospheric turbulence for ground base observing and one wonders what Halley would have made of that. Re AI, you might find this interesting StrangeM.....

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/15/16654352/ai-astronomy-space-exploration-data


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## Strange Magic

mikeh375 said:


> Adaptive optics are a brilliant way to counter atmospheric turbulence for ground base observing and one wonders what Halley would have made of that. Re AI, you might find this interesting StrangeM.....
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/15/16654352/ai-astronomy-space-exploration-data


I did indeed! Excellent article.


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## Room2201974

Strange Magic said:


> I did indeed! Excellent article.


I concur. Thanks *mikeh375*


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## mikeh375

Have any of you guys ever seen something you couldn't explain whilst observing?


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## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> Have any of you guys ever seen something you couldn't explain whilst observing?


This star is one of the oldest in the universe! And it's only190 ly away in Libra. It probably formed in what would be the galactic halo before our galaxy had grown much and it later got a very big push in our direction.

HD 140283 is an extremely metal-deficient and high-velocity subgiant in the solar neighborhood, having a location in the HR diagram where absolute magnitude is most sensitive to stellar age. Because it is bright, nearby, unreddened, and has a well-determined chemical composition, this star avoids most of the issues involved in age determinations for globular clusters. Using the Fine Guidance Sensors on the Hubble Space Telescope, we have measured a trigonometric parallax of 17.15 +/- 0.14 mas for HD 140283, with an error one-fifth of that determined by the Hipparcos mission. Employing modern theoretical isochrones, which include effects of helium diffusion, revised nuclear reaction rates, and enhanced oxygen abundance, we use the precise distance to infer an age of 14.46 +/- 0.31 Gyr. The quoted error includes only the uncertainty in the parallax, and is for adopted surface oxygen and iron abundances of [O/H] = -1.67 and [Fe/H] = -2.40. Uncertainties in the stellar parameters and chemical composition, especially the oxygen content, now contribute more to the error budget for the age of HD 140283 than does its distance, increasing the total uncertainty to about +/-0.8 Gyr. Within the errors, the age of HD 140283 does not conflict with the age of the Universe, 13.77 +/- 0.06 Gyr, based on the microwave background and Hubble constant, but it must have formed soon after the big bang.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.3180


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## Strange Magic

mikeh375 said:


> Have any of you guys ever seen something you couldn't explain whilst observing?


I have not had any close encounters.....


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## Luchesi

KenOC hasn't posted in a week(?) while his daily average is over six posts a day.

I hope he's okay.


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## KenOC

Luchesi said:


> KenOC hasn't posted in a week(?) while his daily average is over six posts a day.
> 
> I hope he's okay.


Im ok, thanks, traveling.


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## Strange Magic

My dream optics, if I could afford them: About 25 years ago, Fujinon offered--for $11,000--a pair of monster binoculars that were actually twin 150-mm refractors with ED glass objective lenses. One could use paired regular 1.25-inch eyepieces--whatever one wanted. I don't remember whether the price included the necessarily massive mount, but part of my brain thinks the mount was separate at $3,000 additional. I recently scoured through several sites including Fujinon itself to see whether this dream bino still was made and offered, and found only smaller and far less expensive "big binos", most without the monster bino's prisms in the light path that allowed for head-down viewing like a regular refractor (though offering correct-image viewing). It must have been fantastic looking at the night sky through such optics; Fujinon had, and still has, I presume, great optics--crisp, clear. My best kayaking binoculars were a pair of waterproof 6X30 Fujinon individual-focus binos, which, like an idiot, I left behind one day at the launch site and made someone else very happy.


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## mikeh375

Strange Magic said:


> My dream optics, if I could afford them: About 25 years ago, Fujinon offered--for $11,000--a pair of monster binoculars that were actually twin 150-mm refractors with ED glass objective lenses. One could use paired regular 1.25-inch eyepieces--whatever one wanted. I don't remember whether the price included the necessarily massive mount, but part of my brain thinks the mount was separate at $3,000 additional. I recently scoured through several sites including Fujinon itself to see whether this dream bino still was made and offered, and found only smaller and far less expensive "big binos", most without the monster bino's prisms in the light path that allowed for head-down viewing like a regular refractor (though offering correct-image viewing). It must have been fantastic looking at the night sky through such optics; Fujinon had, and still has, I presume, great optics--crisp, clear. My best kayaking binoculars were a pair of waterproof 6X30 Fujinon individual-focus binos, which, like an idiot, I left behind one day at the launch site and made someone else very happy.


Those Binos sound amazing, you would certainly need an equatorial or better for them, or perhaps one of those mounts that allow you to lie on a sunbed , relax and just look up through them. My dream would have been to build a shed complete with roll-off roof. Inside I'd have a computer driven scope with a 4K screen for viewing. When it was really cold, I'd just control the scope from inside the house with a glass of St. Emilion... I'm still hankering after a solar scope too, something like these beauties......

https://www.meade.com/solar/solar-scopes.html


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## Strange Magic

Those Meade/Coronado solar scopes are impressive! Such views of prominences, flares, granulation--brings home the reality that the sun is a star!. Carl Sagan said that was what blew his mind as a kid and set him to astronomy. Other astronomers often credit seeing Saturn through a scope in somebody's back yard.

If one had unlimited funds, setting up both the Fujinon monster binos and a comfy, heated viewing chair together on a giant GoTo mount, probably best alt-az, would be the ultimate for me. Without having to get out of the seat or otherwise shift yourself, you would just be swung into position to see anything you wanted, just by tapping a few keys. A boy can dream......


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## mikeh375

It's quite depressing to realise that a lot of people don't know our sun is a star. Coincidently, last night we where watching a quiz called Mastermind (English tv) and a question came up on this..."At 96 million miles from Earth, what is the name of our nearest star?"...answer..."Sirius". The quiz is a highbrow one and that answer was from a doctor!!!
I think I've read everything Sagan ever published and his Cosmos series was a big influence on me. Speaking of Sirius, I once read of a tribe called the Dogon in Africa who for centuries believed that visitors had come from Sirius, which they say also has a companion star. This was long before we found out it is indeed a double star....spooky or flukey or hookey? All three I bet.


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## Strange Magic

Watching the transit of Mercury on November 11 again reminded me that the vast machinery of the cosmos grinds on completely oblivious to our own thoughts and strivings here on our fantastic museum planet that almost everyone takes for granted and shows little concern for its proper maintenance. Do people ponder the rotation of the Earth as they sense the sun moving through the sky overhead? The circling and cycles of the moon? Very few people today are even conscious of the objects in the night sky, and light pollution makes it yearly harder to even see those objects. And how many know why we have seasons? How many can guess why we can't see Venus or Mercury in the middle of the night, but we can see Mars, Jupiter, Saturn at times then?


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## mikeh375

Indeed and these things aren't that hard to grasp are they. I'm proud to say that my wife now understands why we have seasons, my demo with toffee apple on a stick orbiting a tennis ball did the trick... the stick was useful as it helped her grasp the tilt in the Earth's axis. Encouraged, I tried to tell her about precession as a bonus bit of info, but she gave me that glazed over look and gave me permission to go to the pub with a mate who is as nuts about this stuff as I am...yay.


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## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> Indeed and these things aren't that hard to grasp are they. I'm proud to say that my wife now understands why we have seasons, my demo with toffee apple on a stick orbiting a tennis ball did the trick... the stick was useful as it helped her grasp the tilt in the Earth's axis. Encouraged, I tried to tell her about precession as a bonus bit of info, but she gave me that glazed over look and gave me permission to go to the pub with a mate who is as nuts about this stuff as I am...yay.


For insomniacs, recite and try to visualize these our zodiacal windows below, with your head on the pillow.

CAPAT GC LVL SOS

Think about where the sun is each month and it reminds us what's overhead at midnight for stargazing, which is always the exact opposite direction (and in these letters) from the sun.

Our Supercluster of more than 10,000 galaxies is in V for Virgo.

Our spiral arm is in G for Gemini, just above Orion.

Our sister galaxy Andromeda is above P for Pisces (you'll be looking below the plane of our galaxy to see it, but since our orbit takes us downward in the autumn - therefore Andromeda appears quite high in our sky, even though it's below our galaxy if Polaris is up direction).

Our galactic center is in the 2nd S for Sagittarius.

So these are the 4 important directions in the local universe, on a diagram 3 o'clock (Spring), 6 o'clock (Winter), 9 o'clock (Autumn) and 12 o'clock (Summer). It's relaxing to ponder, and within a month you'll be an expert. Sweet dreams.


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## Luchesi

The Maya noticed the darkest part of the elongated rift extending through the center of the brightest section of the Milky Way as they looked up in the Sagittarius direction. We know now that it's a series of overlapping dust and molecular gas clouds that are positioned between our solar system and the spiral arm whose outer edge is visible (if you know where to look) about 10,000 LYs away in that direction. We're located at the inner edge of a spur of stars and dust, so that when we look in that direction (inward toward the galactic center) there's less obstructions (between us and that spiral arm). But also there's these dirty gas clouds only a few thousand LYs in between there too. These clouds cause it to appear as if the Milky Way is divided into two roughly equal sections above and below them.
I assume the Maya were afraid that the dark rift would capture or attack or weaken the Sun when it got too close. If you have good records of the Sun's apparent position in the sky back then you can calculate where it will be in the future. 

The sun is still crossing the middle of the Dark Rift again this year on the December solstice. Keep your fingers crossed.


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## Room2201974

On why studying variable stars is important:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...-may-be-about-to-explode/ar-BBYn5iE?ocid=AMZN


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## Room2201974

I haven't had a chance to do any observational astronomy for months and was unaware of the story above. Last night I took a quick look at Orion and *it's noticable*. Betelgeuse has dimmed quite a lot. Wow!!!! It used to rival Rigel but now it's not even close. Looks like it's about as bright as Bellatrix, Alnitak or Alnilam.


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## Luchesi

Room2201974 said:


> I haven't had a chance to do any observational astronomy for months and was unaware of the story above. Last night I took a quick look at Orion and *it's noticable*. Betelgeuse has dimmed quite a lot. Wow!!!! It used to rival Rigel but now it's not even close. Looks like it's about as bright as Bellatrix, Alnitak or Alnilam.


Yeah, they called me and they said they'd be here in 3000 or 4000 years, Earth time.

Their large ships had been mothballed for millions of years since Betelgeuse initially expanded and they had to move to an outer planet. So they're furiously working to bring them back into operation.

They want OUR jewel of planet so they warned that we should start terraforming Mars as soon as we're able. It's not up for negotiation!

Such are the ways of the universe ( Eminent domain), but they said they will protect our solar system from the other predators out there. ...So that's something..


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## Strange Magic

The info about Betelgeuse leads to an article in the latest issue of _Sky & Telescope_ on giant carbon stars like Hind's Crimson Star (R Lep) and Herschel's Garnet Star (Mu Ceph), and how they might trigger the birth of companion carbon dwarf stars. Since the 1970s, astronomers have been studying carbon dwarf stars which are far dimmer than the giants but most of whom seem to orbit white dwarfs or invisible companions. The thesis is that a blue star a few times more massive than the sun, and a red dwarf are born together. The blue stars runs out of hydrogen quickly and expands to be a red giant, burning helium to make carbon and oxygen. If the carbon enters the giant's atmosphere, it may become a carbon giant like R Lep, and shed massive amounts of carbon onto its red dwarf companion, turning it into a carbon dwarf. The carbon giant meanwhile dies to become itself a white dwarf and can cool to invisibility. S&T lists 4 carbon dwarfs as possible targets for amateurs but they are challenging, with magnitudes ranging from 13.9 to 16.7, too dim for me!


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## KenOC

Here's an interesting YouTube video about the dimming of Betelgeuse.


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## Strange Magic

While we're on big stars, here's Wikipedia on The Biggest, with UY Scuti up there with another contender, VY Canis Majoris, both possibly reaching the orbit of Saturn if occupying the sun's position. Now that's a Big Star!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_stars


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## Luchesi

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9sh9NpL4i8*

Very intelligent tech-civs will go to sleep and wait trillions of years for the universe to cool down and that way they'll have much longer lifespans.


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## Room2201974

We are stardust
We are golden
We are billion year old carbon

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/tech...een-found-in-a-meteorite/ar-BBYUQy4?ocid=AMZN


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## KenOC

Room2201974 said:


> We are stardust
> We are golden
> We are billion year old carbon


Sometimes even the best atom can fall on hard times. See the sad story *here*.​


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## Luchesi

The Methuselah Planet's globular cluster is M4, 7200 LYs away. For 10 billion years it orbited a yellow star like ours in a nearly circular orbit, somewhere between 2 and 8 AU from its primary. Then, in this crowded cluster 2 billion yrs ago, the yellow star and its planet were dislodged and plunging into the crowded core of M4, they passed too close to an old neutron star that had an orbiting companion star. The gravitational interaction booted the neutron star's companion into space. But the neutron star held on to the yellow sun-like star and its planet. Eventually the sun-like star aged, bloating into a red giant. The red giant's gas flowed onto the neutron star, energizing it. The neutron star spun faster. Today, it rotates 100 times a second. Age can be calculated from pulsar spin-down rates. Methuselah from the Bible

They say this is enough info to reliably date the planet to 12.7 billion yrs ago. The planet's globular has been dated, the planet's original star has been dated and the pulsar spin-down rate from its last mass interaction spin-up encounter has been dated, within accepted ranges.


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## Luchesi

Recently there's been gravitational waves detected in the direction of Betelgeuse, but not exactly from the star it would seem.

Betelgeuse has much more nitrogen than it should have. This might be a clue.

Betelgeuse is moving from its birth place 8.5 million years ago very quickly in the galaxy to its present location.

Betelgeuse is rotating much faster than it should for its size.

If it was a binary system then when it got booted out of its stellar nursery the two stars would eventually coalesce, and that would account for the rapid rotation. And if this is true then Betelgeuse has much more than 100,000 years left before it collapses. The nitrogen was stirred up during the coalescence so that it can be detected today.

It's another one of those detective stories.


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## mikeh375

Seen this guys..........

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jan/25/has-physicists-gravity-theory-solved-impossible-dark-energy-riddle


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## Strange Magic

mikeh375 said:


> Seen this guys..........
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jan/25/has-physicists-gravity-theory-solved-impossible-dark-energy-riddle


A very interesting article. Many thanks for posting! The scientific method and its human and sociological aspects all at play, as with every important new idea, ultimately confirmed or rejected. It will take some serious research, experimentation, theorizing to modify General Relativity--it's held up remarkably well now for a hundred years.


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## mikeh375

Strange Magic said:


> A very interesting article. Many thanks for posting! The scientific method and its human and sociological aspects all at play, as with every important new idea, ultimately confirmed or rejected. It will take some serious research, experimentation, theorizing to modify General Relativity--it's held up remarkably well now for a hundred years.


Yes GR has held up so brilliantly. It's wonderful to know that even that paragon of human achievement is able to be questioned and scrutinised without bias nor prejudice - there is hope for us all still.
Lousy weather in my part of the UK so no lugging a heavy telescope out tonight. We had some wonderful clear skies a few days ago but not for the next few days. I keep looking at Betelgeuse hoping to see her blow. Speaking of which apparently a white dwarf companion fell into a stars heart and went supernova. The explosion reacted with the layers of the star it fell into and created one of the biggest explosions ever witnessed.


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## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> Seen this guys..........
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jan/25/has-physicists-gravity-theory-solved-impossible-dark-energy-riddle


20 years ago the supernova data seemed to show that the universe began to expand in an accelerated mode as you would expect from a large event (the big bang and the inflationary changes of state).

But by about 9 billion years ago the acceleration was slowing down so that it was still accelerating, but less than before. This should be expected from the physics of an explosion with the gravity of the universe acting to slow the expansion rate.

By about 5.5 billion years ago the accelerating rate picked up again! according to the data.

So the explanation for this was that Dark Energy was the result of the repulsion resulting from virtual particle activity. The per-unit strength of this activity remained constant, but the ever expanding space-time between the galactic filaments was adding more and more repulsion between those huge filaments.

More recently with better data this picture has become murkier.


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## KenOC

This may be of interest to backyard skygazers - the Stellina, an automated astrocamera that works in conjunction with your smartphone. Everything's automatic: initial orientation, target location, shooting the picture (actually a set of stacked images), and offloading to your phone or the cloud. Not cheap at $4K but looks like fun! Here's a *review *with samples.


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## Strange Magic

The latest _Sky & Telescope_ also reviews the Stellina, and found several things also to not like, especially its shortcomings in dealing with the moon and the planets--the reviewer found Stellina's images of Saturn to be no better than what Galileo's primitive telescope showed him. I think most amateur astronomers would rather pocket the $4,000 and spend it instead on something with a larger aperture, though likely less compact. The question will be, how often will Stellina be used by the gadget-loving probable purchaser?


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## KenOC

Here's a sample image from the Stellina, doubtless a very long exposure with some extensive image-stacking (taken from digitaltrends). Not too sharp, but I suspect Galileo would have been willing to trade some significant body parts for a piece of kit like this. :lol:


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## KenOC

Strange Magic said:


> ...I think most amateur astronomers would rather pocket the $4,000 and spend it instead on something with a larger aperture, though likely less compact. The question will be, how often will Stellina be used by the gadget-loving probable purchaser?


This is the view of quite a few DPR readers, who also think a more capable setup can be had for the price. Example: "It's for people of means with a passing interest in astro but unwilling to put any effort into it. After using it a few times it will end up gathering dust."


----------



## Jacck

the Spitzer telescope ends its mission
https://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/spitzers-legacy-great-observatory-ends-mission/


----------



## mikeh375

With hindsight, it seems obvious that cosmic rays from outside our solar system would affect chemical processes in planetary atmospheres.....wow.

https://www.ibtimes.com/saturn-moon-titan-mystery-solved-scientists-make-key-discovery-about-atmosphere-2924051


----------



## Luchesi

wrong thread oops


----------



## Luchesi

The comet is expected to become much brighter by the time it sweeps by the sun closer than Mercury during late May, it could even rival Venus in the evening sky.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/04...ould-put-on-quite-a-dazzling-show-next-month/


----------



## Room2201974

Beetle juice, again! Now brightening!

http://www.astronomerstelegram.org/?read=13601


----------



## Jacck

Mile-wide asteroid set to pass within 3.9m miles of Earth
https://www.theguardian.com/science...-or2-wednesday-near-4m-miles-face-mask-fly-by


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> Mile-wide asteroid set to pass within 3.9m miles of Earth
> https://www.theguardian.com/science...-or2-wednesday-near-4m-miles-face-mask-fly-by


If well-hidden aliens nudged this one towards us in order to clear this planet for themselves, they missed..


----------



## Phil loves classical

Was walking home one time from college and saw above the horizon either Comet Hale Bopp or Hyakutake in 1996 without knowing beforehand or reading about it. It was quite a sight, the tail was quite clear. 

I camped out in my car at Glacier National Park in Montana one night, to beat the morning rush for parking at a visitor centre. The stars were twice (or 3x) as bright as I've ever seen even than in my pretty isolated home town in Northern Ontario back in the day. The milky way was unforgettable.

Now I just look for the occasional meteor shower, usually the Perseids around August.


----------



## Luchesi

Phil loves classical said:


> Was walking home one time from college and saw above the horizon either Comet Hale Bopp or Hyakutake in 1996 without knowing beforehand or reading about it. It was quite a sight, the tail was quite clear.
> 
> I camped out in my car at Glacier National Park in Montana one night, to beat the morning rush for parking at a visitor centre. The stars were twice (or 3x) as bright as I've ever seen even than in my pretty isolated home town in Northern Ontario back in the day. The milky way was unforgettable.
> 
> Now I just look for the occasional meteor shower, usually the Perseids around August.


From this you can mull over what you might've been looking at in the Galaxy;


----------



## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> Here's a sample image from the Stellina, doubtless a very long exposure with some extensive image-stacking (taken from digitaltrends). Not too sharp, but I suspect Galileo would have been willing to trade some significant body parts for a piece of kit like this. :lol:


Piece of kitNew Word Suggestion

British slang for: New technology

Submitted By: DavedWachsman - 11/01/2013


Approval Status: Rejected

------------------

Rejected? Very odd. Too British?


----------



## Jacck

ASTROPHOTOGRAPHY SHOOT OUT: £600 vs £6000


----------



## Flamme

Did any1 see 1...I cant recall whan was the last time that I saw a starry sky...https://www.marketwatch.com/story/e...th-spacexs-thousands-of-satellites-2020-05-27


----------



## Jacck

Flamme said:


> Did any1 see 1...I cant recall whan was the last time that I saw a starry sky...https://www.marketwatch.com/story/e...th-spacexs-thousands-of-satellites-2020-05-27


How is this regulated internationally? I don't want any of Musk's satellites flying over my country and I do not know why a private company is allowed to pollute the sky over the whole Earth. He should make those satellites geostationary and fly them only over the USA, otherwise they should be shot down.


----------



## Room2201974

Jacck said:


> How is this regulated internationally? I don't want any of Musk's satellites flying over my country and I do not know why a private company is allowed to pollute the sky over the whole Earth. He should make those satellites geostationary and fly them only over the USA, otherwise they should be shot down.


Will your country shoot them down? With what? A Voracek slap shot?

The Astrophotography boys will figure out a way to computer compensate for the satellite streaks in their digital pictures and the world will keep turning.


----------



## Jacck

Room2201974 said:


> Will your country shoot them down? With what? A Voracek slap shot?
> 
> The Astrophotography boys will figure out a way to computer compensate for the satellite streaks in their digital pictures and the world will keep turning.


Personally, I do not trust any American telecommunication or internet company any more than I trust Huawei. As Snowden has shown, all the major American companies collaborate with the millitary or intelligence agencies. So Musk can keep his fast internet for himself. I guess Europe has its own resources to build something like that.

Both China and Russia have the capacity to shoot down satellites
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...pacecraft-lasers-Air-Force-general-warns.html
and Europe should build this capacity too.


----------



## Jacck

BTW, read something abou the Kessler Syndrome
http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-debris/kessler-syndrome/

space is a "common" for humanity. I would not allow private companies to collonize it, exploit it and push all the negative externalities upon all others


----------



## Room2201974

Jacck said:


> BTW, read something abou the Kessler Syndrome
> http://www.spacesafetymagazine.com/space-debris/kessler-syndrome/
> 
> space is a "common" for humanity. I would not allow private companies to collonize it, exploit it and push all the negative externalities upon all others


Not to worry. This will be Boyan Slat's next project. Funded by Delos David Harriman I'm sure.


----------



## Luchesi

China launched 4 satellites in the last few days.


"As an optical remote sensing satellite, Gaofen-9 is capable of providing photographs with a resolution of about one meter."


----------



## Flamme

Did ya even wish upon a star, did it come true??? 2 me it did, few years ago, I saw 1 and wished 2 be with a certain person...It came through but as she told me ''careful what u wish 4''...Now I think I could have used it 4 something better...I havent seen 1 since...


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> Did ya even wish upon a star, did it come true??? 2 me it did, few years ago, I saw 1 and wished 2 be with a certain person...It came through but as she told me ''careful what u wish 4''...Now I think I could have used it 4 something better...I havent seen 1 since...


Wish towards our Virgo Supercluster. Over there is the nearby group of beings (if there's any nearby) who might detect your wish.

They might be detecting all our wishes, so to speak.


----------



## Luchesi

duplicate post, lo siento


----------



## Flamme

Luchesi said:


> Wish towards our Virgo Supercluster. Over there is the nearby group of beings (if there's any nearby) who might detect your wish.
> 
> They might be detecting all our wishes, so to speak.


Im a Virgo lol I know its big cluster and loox like a box full of shiny colourful jewelry...:angel:


----------



## Luchesi

another duplicate post

Posts are too short.

Posts can't be deleted.

I used to be a programmer.


----------



## Luchesi

Does anyone remember the worldwide interest caused by the discovery of the stickman figure?

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/pdf/1986ApJ...302L...1D

View attachment 137896


We're (our whole Local Group) located under his right armpit.


----------



## Room2201974

I don't the stickman will remain much of a deal after we 3d the universe:

https://news.fnal.gov/2020/06/now-c...YYVJbNkr8uVqaduwxBjnAQLHl82oOikHJHvg6JuYzeOa4


----------



## Luchesi

Room2201974 said:


> I don't the stickman will remain much of a deal after we 3d the universe:
> 
> https://news.fnal.gov/2020/06/now-c...YYVJbNkr8uVqaduwxBjnAQLHl82oOikHJHvg6JuYzeOa4


This is a similiar finding. Look at how this propagandist uses it as ammunition.

Science has discovered and proven time and time again that the Earth is the center of the universe. Because of this fact the only viable conclusion is that it was designed that way from the start. Since the discovery of the predicted CMBR in 1963 ....scientists in 1978 discovered "disturbing" anisotropies in the Cosmic Background Radiation (CMB).....that according to the Big Bang hypothesis must not be there. It is so disturbing that after almost 10 years of preparations... NASA sends up the COBE Probe in 1990 to investigate. COBE confirms there are "problems" for the Big Bang! They then send up another probe in 2001 specifically to focus in on the anisotropies! The name of the probe speaks for itself....the "Wilkinson Anisotropy Microwave Probe." This probe is way more sensitive than COBE and confirms the COBE findings! However, they also find more "disturbing" and puzzling information via Max Tegmark. The anomalies form axis that goes from one end of the universe to the other. What's more puzzling is that WMAP finds that very important poles of the CMB are NOT random! the quadrupole and the octupole. They both align within the 23.5° plane of the earth right to the ecliptic plane! This was dubbed the Axis of Evil in 2003! Why evil? Because it completely undermines the very foundations of cosmology & cosmogony! It falsifies Einstein, Hubble and the LambdaCDM (Big Bang).....most importantly...it falsifies the Copernican Principle!! Utterly astounding!!! And again because of these astounding and again disturbing alignments....THEY send up ANOTHER probe in 2009!!! The All Powerful Planck Probe! Super sensitive and HD and way more powerful then COBE and WMAP! In 2013 the data is released and ALL CONFIRMED!!! IN HD!!! The whole universe is ALIGNED right to the earth's locale!!! Incredible!! 3 probes at a cost of over $2 Billion.....CONFIRM what was hinted at in 1978!! As in baseball....3 strikes....you're out! Here's a 2006 article of the famous athiest physicist Lawrence Krauss commenting on WMAP's discovery of these alignments. Bear in mind he's of the mindset that the Planck Probe will later rule the data out as errors or some sort of contamination. Lawrence Krauss: "But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun - the plane of the earth around the sun - the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe. The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales." Hmmm...he's saying .."This would SAY we are TRULY the CENTER of the UNIVERSE!" Here's the link with his thoughts on the very last 2 paragraphs: https://www.edge.org/conversation/the-energy-of-empty-space-that-isn-39t-zero And again one year later in 2007 this from the CMB team Huterer, Swartz and co. appeared in Astronomy Magazine : http://www-personal.umich.edu/~huterer/PRESS/CMB_Huterer.pdf Notice they are asking "Why"....not "Is" because to the team the alignments are all confirmed with confidence despite Planck's future data!! Another ASTONISHING findings from the team is that the temperature of 1/2 of the universe is hotter than the other!!! The dividing line is "precisely at the ecliptic plane"! THE EARTH'S ECLIPTIC PLANE! You'll see the information on the very last page under "Ecliptic Oddities". They report that the likelihood of these alignments happening by chance is less than 0.1 percent! Lastly on the same last page under: The elusive explanation "Many cosmologists find the various CMB alignments extremely unlikely to have occurred by chance. Moreover, nearly all the alignments point to the solar system's motion or the orientation of the ecliptic plane. Is there a deeper explanation?"....they are dumbfounded! The information destroys the big bang and and yet they still must refer to the supposed "motion" of the Solar System and the motion of the earth!!! The earth is supposed to be in "Some forgotten corner of the universe" as Carl Sagan asserted because of the Big Bang Theory!! Yet...today we find the whole of the universe aligned and oriented to "our little forgotten corner"! This means the Big Bang if it has any credibility left whatsoever, KNEW the earth was coming.....and ALIGNED itself ...with the Earth! The earth is static and the center of the universe. fyi....All laboratory empirical evidence confirms as well! .03% randon 99.97% ....Designed!﻿


----------



## Room2201974

Betelgeuse again - with a likely explanation of its recent dimming and brightening.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiec...giant-that-swallowed-its-sister/#9396e0461309


----------



## Luchesi

Dust cloud theory discounted somewhat now, because it's dimming in the sub-millimeter range. Dust doesn't do that.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.09409

Abstract
Betelgeuse, the nearest red supergiant star to Earth, underwent an unusually deep minimum at optical wavelengths during its most recent pulsation cycle. We present submillimeter observations taken by the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope and Atacama Pathfinder Experiment over a time span of 13 yr including the optical dimming. We find that Betelgeuse has also dimmed by ~20% at these longer wavelengths during this optical minimum. Using radiative-transfer models, we show that this is likely due to changes in the photosphere (luminosity) of the star as opposed to the surrounding dust, as was previously suggested in the literature.


----------



## Luchesi

Why does TC put New Lines everywhere there's a new line?


----------



## Jacck

some update on the Great Attractor. The last time I read about it, it was quite mysterious. It seems they know a little bit more about it now (the Shapley attractor)

What really is the Great Attractor?


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> some update on the Great Attractor. The last time I read about it, it was quite mysterious. It seems they know a little bit more about it now (the Shapley attractor)
> 
> What really is the Great Attractor?


Philadelphia to Baltimore 3 1/2 times every second of your life ....is the speed we're moving in that direction.


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Philadelphia to Baltimore 3 1/2 times every second of your life ....is the speed we're moving in that direction.


speed relative to what? Give me a fixed point and I will move the universe


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> speed relative to what? Give me a fixed point and I will move the universe


Hmmm.. It's just a shift in the spectral lines. We might be being fooled, but I don't think so.


----------



## Strange Magic

Mars is in a very favorable opposition, so I have taken the 'scope out a couple of times. Looked at both Jupiter and Mars but the light pollution here in our current digs is three times worse than it was where we lived previously, and the seeing wasn't great there either. So, Mars mostly a blur, but I persuaded myself that I saw the icecap. If only I could be miraculously transported to the Australian outback!


----------



## Jacck

Strange Magic said:


> Mars is in a very favorable opposition, so I have taken the 'scope out a couple of times. Looked at both Jupiter and Mars but the light pollution here in our current digs is three times worse than it was where we lived previously, and the seeing wasn't great there either. So, Mars mostly a blur, but I persuaded myself that I saw the icecap. If only I could be miraculously transported to the Australian outback!


https://darksitefinder.com/

light pollution map
https://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html#4/39.00/-98.00


----------



## Strange Magic

The place here in the USA I've yearned to be with my 'scope is Steens Mountain, Oregon. High, very very dark, remote. But Australia offers that superb southern hemisphere sky.......

One of the two big amateur astronomy magazines, S&T or _Astronomy_, years ago had an article comparing the best examples of, as I recall, ten sights: globular clusters, open clusters, galaxies, planetary nebulae, etc., by hemisphere. The southern hemisphere walked away with the most 'bests", with maybe the Andromeda galaxy being the only "best" in its category.


----------



## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> The place here in the USA I've yearned to be with my 'scope is Steens Mountain, Oregon. High, very very dark, remote. But Australia offers that superb southern hemisphere sky.......
> 
> One of the two big amateur astronomy magazines, S&T or _Astronomy_, years ago had an article comparing the best examples of, as I recall, ten sights: globular clusters, open clusters, galaxies, planetary nebulae, etc., by hemisphere. The southern hemisphere walked away with the most 'bests", with maybe the Andromeda galaxy being the only "best" in its category.


I live near the site of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey and solar observatory. There's a strict light pollution ordinance. Street lights are quite expensive with their shielding.

When you're camping up there at 9500 feet, wake up at 2am and go out and try to find any constellation! The stars are so bright and the contrast between the bright familiar stars and the dimmer ones is lost. You're above most of the atmosphere, dry desert air.

We're heading toward M83 in the southern sky, the Shapley Supercluster is 700? million LYs behind M83 down there.


----------



## Roger Knox

Talk Classical brought me -- to astronomy and meteorology. Bravo!


----------



## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> Talk Classical brought me -- to astronomy and meteorology. Bravo!


We've passed the angle for the center of the Galaxy, but we can still look back at its exact location, in the early evening to the west. It's behind the smoke from the spout of the Teapot. 
Jupiter and Saturn are a little to the east. But currently Pluto is right in the middle between the two. Pluto's only moved half way around our sky since Clyde (and Patsy) found it in 1930.


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> Pluto's only moved half way around our sky since Clyde (and Patsy) found it in 1930.


I haven't kept up -- has Pluto been reinstated as a planet?


----------



## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> I haven't kept up -- has Pluto been reinstated as a planet?


No. It's crucial in science to have accurate and strict categories. If we get to another solar system and we find objects like Pluto, tiny (the size of the midwest of the USA) and not formed mostly under the influence of its star, will we categorize them as major planets? Tombaugh was agreeing that Pluto probably wasn't a major planet, but he had very little info about it. OTOH, his wife Patsy was furious about the new label!


----------



## Flamme

So many strange ''green-ish'' comets illuminate the night sky lately..


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> So many strange ''green-ish'' comets illuminate the night sky lately..


It only takes one sun-crossing comet!


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> No. It's crucial in science to have accurate and strict categories.


That's a good thing then, because it's important not to be misled about what a planet is and what the nature of our solar system is. In fact it's important to be as accurate as we can in all things, even though strict categories are not always possible.


----------



## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> That's a good thing then, because it's important not to be misled about what a planet is and what the nature of our solar system is. In fact it's important to be as accurate as we can in all things, even though strict categories are not always possible.


In meteorology as you know, we have categories, very helpful categories. Before the 80s, before we had detailed synoptic views, we used wind shifts to determine which category was currently predominating the area of interest. There's an idealized model and a repeating sequence in each category. As each system advects over the target area the winds shift. Forecasters had to get very good at looking at wind shifts to see if they were significant and indicative of system changes, or just a result of the complex and subtle variability. This was a headache.

We no longer use anemometers and wind shifts (or barometers), hooray! These days we can't wait around for definitive wind shifts! We look at the systems and we have an idealized model of what they are - and what they cause weatherwise when they reach the target area. BUT we can't yet forecast the dry slots as they cycle chaotically. appearing and fading away within systems. So that's the cause of most busted forecasts, which seem so glaring to the customer. These dry slots are at least 20 miles wide and so any forecasts in that area will be wrong.


----------



## Jacck

NASA Psyche Mission to Mine an Asteroid with Solid Gold Core, Pure Nickel, Metallic Iron Worth $10,000 Quadrillion
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/...mine-an-asteroid-worth-10-000-quadrillion.htm

The asteroid 16 Psyche is located between Mars and Jupiter. It triggered the interest of scientists who believe that the asteroid's 226-kilometer-wide body could contain precious metals that can surpass the cost of the economy of the entire world. Scientists speculate that there may be diamond, platinum, and gold buried deep in asteroids, which may be worth billions of dollars. Some experts even value the asteroid at around $10,000 quadrillion as it is made up of metallic iron and nickel while its core is made of solid gold.


----------



## Flamme

Luchesi said:


> It only takes one sun-crossing comet!


Yeah but ''green-ish''? Wouldnt it be bright white, yellow or orange...Idk...


----------



## Iota

Jacck said:


> NASA Psyche Mission to Mine an Asteroid with Solid Gold Core, Pure Nickel, Metallic Iron Worth $10,000 Quadrillion
> https://www.techtimes.com/articles/...mine-an-asteroid-worth-10-000-quadrillion.htm
> 
> The asteroid 16 Psyche is located between Mars and Jupiter. It triggered the interest of scientists who believe that the asteroid's 226-kilometer-wide body could contain precious metals that can surpass the cost of the economy of the entire world. Scientists speculate that there may be diamond, platinum, and gold buried deep in asteroids, which may be worth billions of dollars. Some experts even value the asteroid at around $10,000 quadrillion as it is made up of metallic iron and nickel while its core is made of solid gold.


That reminded me of this, a possible diamond the size of earth hanging in space about 900 light years away. Something that had my mind boggling when I read about it a few years ago. A breathtaking and somewhat beautiful image I think.


----------



## Roger Knox

Iota said:


> That reminded me of this, a possible diamond the size of earth hanging in space about 900 light years away. Something that had my mind boggling when I read about it a few years ago. A breathtaking and somewhat beautiful image I think.


Yes. My initial reaction was that only God could afford it... But the "breathtaking and beautiful image" lingers, thank you! And an image reminding us of the breathtaking and beautiful is always welcome, because it reminds us that unexpected, wonderful things can exist and do happen, as well as pain and suffering such as that we are experiencing now.


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> We no longer use anemometers and wind shifts (or barometers), hooray! These days we can't wait around for definitive wind shifts! We look at the systems and we have an idealized model of what they are - and what they cause weatherwise when they reach the target area. BUT we can't yet forecast the dry slots as they cycle chaotically. appearing and fading away within systems. So that's the cause of most busted forecasts, which seem so glaring to the customer. These dry slots are at least 20 miles wide and so any forecasts in that area will be wrong.


Thank you for your explanation. My dad used to speak a lot of cold fronts (in Canada of course) and he tapped the barometer every evening. As forecasting has become more sophisticated, expectations and demands likely have risen. If I understand correctly, for the purposes of forecasting the dry spots are conceptually a kind of "negative space" because they cycle chaotically. I don't like when people expect everything to be transparent and nailed down, and unfairly blame the forecaster (or whomever).


----------



## Jacck

The Most Famous Paradox in Physics Nears Its End
https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-black-hole-information-paradox-comes-to-an-end-20201029/


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> The Most Famous Paradox in Physics Nears Its End
> https://www.quantamagazine.org/the-black-hole-information-paradox-comes-to-an-end-20201029/


Thanks. That's a very good article. It goes back decades to explain what's been going on since the headlines Hawking made.

I do worry about a stronger version of the CERN collider. The theorists working there (others disagree) will say that there's no danger because small black holes that might be generated will evaporate very quickly.


----------



## Luchesi

A surprising new finding;

There are probably a TRILLION rogue planets flying around the Galaxy (not gravitationally bound to any star). Far more than the number of stars..


----------



## Iota

Roger Knox said:


> And an image reminding us of the breathtaking and beautiful is always welcome, because it reminds us that unexpected, wonderful things can exist and do happen, as well as pain and suffering such as that we are experiencing now.


Indeed, and in light of its great remove from us, I find there's something very particular about the power of contemplation of cosmological phenomena to lift us out of our current reality.


----------



## Jacck

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...een-2020-october-full-time-date-b1449628.html
A rare Blue Moon will appear this weekend, coinciding with Halloween for the first time in more than 70 years.
It is remarkably rare for two full moons to grace a single calendar month, occurring roughly every two and a half years.
It is rarer still for a full moon to fall on Halloween. The last time a full moon was visible in all time zones around the world on Halloween, as Saturday's moon will be, was in 1944.


----------



## Luchesi

*'Great conjunction' of Jupiter and Saturn will form a 'Christmas Star' on the winter solstice*

By Doris Elin Urrutia a day ago 
Jupiter and Saturn will have their closest encounter in almost 400 years on the solstice (Dec. 21).

Oh and a side note. The new estimate is 4 trillion galaxies or more. Many are very dim, but they are separated and separate galactic systems. When I was young I don't think it was even 100 billion as an estimate. Why would very dim 'galaxies' even exist, might've been the question (I don't know)?


----------



## joen_cph

One among many live web sources for the launch of the *James Webb *telescope, in about 15 minutes from now:


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> One among may live web sources for the launch of the *James Webb *telescope, in about 15 minutes from now:


Uh oh. If the telescope detects a few supercivilizations out there, how would it affect the man-on-the-street? How would it affect you?

< According to 'proper' usage, affect is a verb and effect is a noun.>


----------



## mmsbls

The Webb telescope was originally scheduled to launch in 2007. Technical issues postponed the launch several times, and the funding was almost pulled. The telescope cost $US 10 billion, but it will explore eras in the Universe's evolution from when atoms first formed through formation of galaxies and stars on to present day planetary atmospheres. I'm often struck by the ability of science to explore reality in regions so different from our own (13 billion years ago, 13 billion light years away, enormous energy scales, etc.).


----------



## Ariasexta

I remember last year we have the first ever photo of a supposed blackhole, does anybody have any doubt about blackholes? I doubt it because gravitational implosion would simply warp the whole matter into another space time.
_
"The absence of event horizons suggests that the concept of a black hole that does not allow the light to escape is wrong."

Unlike the event horizon, the ephemeral "apparent horizon" can disappear, which ultimately means that anything can eventually emerge from a black hole, in a different form from the original though. However, so far, Hawking does not describe by what mechanism the disappearance of the "apparent horizon" may occur.

If all these are true, then the information consumed by a black hole is ultimately not destroyed but merely "deformed" and can get out again in an unrecognizable form through the Hawking radiation._

--US Physicist Claims That Black Holes Do Not Exist & Are Mathematically Impossible


----------



## Luchesi

mmsbls said:


> The Webb telescope was originally scheduled to launch in 2007. Technical issues postponed the launch several times, and the funding was almost pulled. The telescope cost $US 10 billion, but it will explore eras in the Universe's evolution from when atoms first formed through formation of galaxies and stars on to present day planetary atmospheres. I'm often struck by the ability of science to explore reality in regions so different from our own (13 billion years ago, 13 billion light years away, enormous energy scales, etc.).


I wonder how the many research projects are prioritized. I wonder if the data will be available for download like it is from Gaia.

I want to see Space Engine updated with some of this data. It's such a marvelous free program.


----------



## Luchesi

If a civilization out there wants to study particles using high energy collisions and they don’t notice that they’ve created a small black hole. The next time they run their experiment the black hole grows and consumes their planet! (If they're still confined to their planet then that will be the end of THAT evolutionary experiment!) Will this telescope catch any of those catastrophes, I wonder? If so, it could be a warning for us..

Theorists tell us that small black holes dissipate almost immediately, because very high energy gamma rays might create small black holes on neutron stars and such huge collapses would be going on all the time. But how does Hawking Radiation proceed with the curvature of such a small black hole, in the isolated, quiescent environment of a chamber in an accelerator? I don't know enough about it obviously.


----------



## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> I remember last year we have the first ever photo of a supposed blackhole, does anybody have any doubt about blackholes? I doubt it because gravitational implosion would simply warp the whole matter into another space time.
> _
> "The absence of event horizons suggests that the concept of a black hole that does not allow the light to escape is wrong."
> 
> Unlike the event horizon, the ephemeral "apparent horizon" can disappear, which ultimately means that anything can eventually emerge from a black hole, in a different form from the original though. However, so far, Hawking does not describe by what mechanism the disappearance of the "apparent horizon" may occur.
> 
> If all these are true, then the information consumed by a black hole is ultimately not destroyed but merely "deformed" and can get out again in an unrecognizable form through the Hawking radiation._
> 
> --US Physicist Claims That Black Holes Do Not Exist & Are Mathematically Impossible


Well, science only gives us the best current explanation. We're in a dark room so even the definition of the terms is probably beyond us.


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## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> Uh oh. If the telescope detects a few supercivilizations out there, how would it affect the man-on-the-street? How would it affect you?
> 
> < According to 'proper' usage, affect is a verb and effect is a noun.>


The telescope's actual working projects are diverse and mainly scientific, in the various fields of astronomy and related sciences, plus possibly finding traits of biological signatures on celestial bodies. Civilization discoveries aren't much of a discussion subject regarding the launch, in fact your irony is the first case of bringing it up, in the limited number of sources I've read. My impression is that a civilization discovery via the telescope isn't considered likely at all. Maybe others think differently.


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## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> I wonder how the many research projects are prioritized. I wonder if the data will be available for download like it is from Gaia.
> 
> I want to see Space Engine updated with some of this data. It's such a marvelous free program.


I know that some science institutes/universities etc. have been given research time via the telescope facilities, as a sort of payment for work and technique contributing to the telescope. In the case of one Danish university, it is 135 hours at least. The telescope's expected lifetime is 10 years, but no doubt they've made a lot of margin, for secondary ideas/projects.


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## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> The telescope's actual working projects are diverse and mainly scientific, in the various fields of astronomy and related sciences, plus possibly finding traits of biological signatures on celestial bodies. Civilization discoveries aren't much of a discussion subject regarding the launch, in fact your irony is the first case of bringing it up, in the limited number of sources I've read. My impression is that a civilization discovery via the telescope isn't considered likely at all. Maybe others think differently.


I can understand that NASA would not want to mention the word aliens, because the funding is controversial according to some political and religious groups.

Many people don't want to answer the question I asked in my post.

Astronomers should be able to find a ninth planet very quickly? It's speculated that it has a large mass.


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## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> I can understand that NASA would not want to mention the word aliens, because the funding is controversial according to some political and religious groups.
> 
> Many people don't want to answer the question I asked in my post.
> 
> They should be able to find a ninth planet very quickly? It's speculated that it has a large mass.


1) But there's been a lot of talk from some on the forum about the opposite: finding 'alien life' just being PR-rubbish to please the public, in order to get funds for projects.

2) My impression is that you've been very sceptical about options for alien life, to put it mildly. Coming from a non-religious and no-conspiracy-theories environment, I'd prefer they found some proof of life that was rather primitive and thus manageable. It would be one of Mankind's greatest scientific discoveries ever, as long as it exists, and it will probably also actually _confirm_ some aspects of our current scientific mindset. 
And then moreover because, as you get older & death a much better known fact, I'd like to be among those who are privileged to get just that improved grasp of the Big Picture - before I myself go too.

3) Likely, maybe. Such a 9th planet seems to probably be a very bland and very dark thing, however.


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## mmsbls

joen_cph said:


> The telescope's actual working projects are diverse and mainly scientific, in the various fields of astronomy and related sciences, plus possibly finding traits of biological signatures on celestial bodies. Civilization discoveries aren't much of a discussion subject regarding the launch, in fact your irony is the first case of bringing it up, in the limited number of sources I've read. My impression is that a civilization discovery via the telescope isn't considered likely at all. Maybe others think differently.


Yes, the Webb telescope will be able to determine at least some of the gases that make up the extra-solar planetary atmospheres. If they detect oxygen or methane, those could be signatures of life. I'm not sure how they would differentiate between abiotic and biotic oxygen, but my understanding is that they may be able to do so. None of the data from the telescope can determine what type of life might exist there and especially how advanced that life might be.


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## Ariasexta

If blackholes can not fit the reality of the intergalactic gravitational interactions observed, then as a theory it is factually defunct.

LHC could produce anything but a micro-blackhole, in statistics, large input can produce almost any approximation to a definite figure, like the functions that converge on 1, as long as the x is large enough, you can take it as 1. High energy particle is also like that, only is substituted with a wave function that works in the quantum environment, it is still a wave function but statistically redone. As computer takes up the major role in simulations, we can heap endless datas as long as electricity allows, and produce some visually amazing things like the E8 map of Lie Group. 
_
Journey to the 248th dimension

A map of one of the strangest and most complex entities in mathematics should be a powerful new tool for both mathematicians and physicists pursuing a unified theory of space, time and matter.

The strange 'thing' that has been mapped is a 'Lie group' called E8 - a set of maths that describes the symmetry of an (unimaginable to most) 57-dimensional object.

This represents 60 gigabytes of data, enough data to store 45 days of MP3 music files, or fill a piece of paper the size of Manhattan (about 60 square kilometres). The human genome takes up 1 gigabyte._

No wonder, larger numbers will yield very strange things about math and physics, so do the immense input of energy into the LHC, but after all, the missing links in science will never be made up by these "investments". One extraodinary easy example is the tossing coin experiment, anyone can do by oneself, toss a coin 10, 100, 1000, 10000, or 1000000 times, and check the ratio between the positive and negative sides, you will have interesting numbers too compare. This is what is our current science all about.


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> Well, science only gives us the best current explanation. We're in a dark room so even the definition of the terms is probably beyond us.


We are witnessing the passing of the Blackhole, Stephen Hawking actually revoked the theory shortly before his death and very few people noticed this. Welcome to the dark-matter age, my age of chaos.  Blackholes are over, lets accept this fact.


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## Ariasexta

So the question left is what is the thing in the supposed blackhole picture taken in 2019?








If it is not a black hole, then what is it?


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## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> 1) But there's been a lot of talk from some on the forum about the opposite: finding 'alien life' just being PR-rubbish to please the public, in order to get funds for projects.
> 
> 2) My impression is that you've been very sceptical about options for alien life, to put it mildly. Coming from a non-religious and no-conspiracy-theories environment, I'd prefer they found some proof of life that was rather primitive and thus manageable. It would be one of Mankind's greatest scientific discoveries ever, as long as it exists, and it will probably also actually _confirm_ some aspects of our current scientific mindset.
> And then moreover because, as you get older & death a much better known fact, I'd like to be among those who are privileged to get just that improved grasp of the Big Picture - before I myself go too.
> 
> 3) Likely, maybe. Such a 9th planet seems to probably be a very bland and very dark thing, however.


The funding was already controversial, without the mention of aliens.

I expect simple life will be found on favorable sites out there, but communicating civilizations? No.
I used to think about being guided by the time slices that were required for each step in our sample of one here.

such as we estimate;

1. Life perhaps 4.2 gya. 
2. eukaryotic life and then a modern cell 800 mya
3. large, advanced life evolved to be able to live on land (for example) 300 mya
4. manipulative intelligence 20 mya

From 1 to 2 - it's a huge leap, and conditions had to be favorable for the 3400 million years. Most sites out there don't develop that far.

From 2 to 3 is actually easier (according to these time slices as a probability picture). Some helpful extinction events and a few animal groups survive which aren't deadends when it comes to manipulative intelligence. Only birds and mammals held the hope alive here.

3 to 4 - it's said that intelligence isn't highly beneficial for species survival because of the tradeoffs, so perhaps rare and lucky circumstances are needed, climate change, neoteny, arboreal living 'evolved' the morphology for a manipulative intelligence here.

If there is a large rogue planet out there it will be our closest exoplanet to reach. Its composition and trajectory will be interesting to study. Poor Pluto was demoted in part because it didn't form under the influence of its star. When we're able to categorize other planetary systems there will be many Kuiper Belt objects like Pluto and its moons, but Planet 9 seems too massive to be the result of the slow-motion collisions out there (so it formed around another star? or it got ejected from our solar system).


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## joen_cph

Ariasexta said:


> So the question left is what is the thing in the supposed blackhole picture taken in 2019?
> 
> View attachment 162376
> 
> If it is not a black hole, then what is it?


I'm definitely out of my league as regards this physics of this subject, but yes, in the last week, I've run across two apparently well-informed, scientific articles about Black Holes not necessarily being what we've thought they were, including that they possibly appeared very close to the Big Bang.


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## Ariasexta

joen_cph said:


> I'm definitely out of my league as regards this physics of this subject, but yes, in the last week, I've run across two apparently well-informed, scientific articles about Black Holes not necessarily being what we've though they were, including that they possibly appeared very close to the Big Bang.


Blackholes by definition are an irrevocable destroyers of matter even the quasar phenomena were built upon this blackhole model, considering quasars being the monster blackholes eating up matter in an aged galaxy. Blackholes Not like what we think is--the underlying message is actually changing the whole landscape of astronomy so far. It is very exciting to consider we are facing directly to a great mystery unfolding before our eyes without any more distractions of disinformations and past errors. The dark matter, it can be anything, but it is not just black holes, I get a feeling that this is a far more greater thing than blackholes.


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## Ariasexta

I am not good enough to propose a new theory with rigorous math in my mind about the "supposed blackhole picture“ taken and what the dark matter could be. Though I do have my own guesses but here I simply urge everybody to free your imagination, which is so innocent and could bring to you in advance of science the great excitements that are hidden behind our routines, merely hinted at by science and authority. :angel:


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