# Chopin Etudes



## JohannesBrahms

What emotion does Chopin's etude op. 10 no. 1 make you feel? Also, what about op. 10 no. 2?


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## PetrB

Op 10, No. 1

First, gotta say my cliche, I don't care if he had a toothache when he wrote it.

That means, when a piece is titled "Etude and nothing but Etude," we can never guess -- near any surety, at what the composer was feeling or what the composer may have wanted the listener to feel.

I do hear this brilliance, a bloom of arpeggios, the slightest yet good line in the bass, and Chopin's startling yet often "Beautiful" harmonic display. It is spacious sounding, forte amplitude for the most part. "Exciting."

I can not think of one literally specific sentiment or specific emotion that would evoke, let alone in another listener.

Maybe of interest... Chopin, using this same configuration, and very much the same sort of manner used to make one kind of piano piece, symmetrically placed three other arpeggio etudes in this sequence of the 24 etudes:

*Op. 10:* 
*No. 1* treble right-hand arpeggios.





*No 12* bass left hand arpeggios.





*Op. 25:* 
*No. 1* treble and bass left and right hand opposed arpeggios





*No. 12* treble and bass left and right hand parallel arpeggios





Very neatly symmetrical, both use of arpeggios and placement of the pieces within the running order of Op 10, and Op. 25

I cannot hear Op 10, No. 2




as other than an Etude, knowing what the specific exercise is: there is to me some light Mendelssohnian scherzo generic late romantic _evoke fairyland_ or something elusive, fey, about it. 
Pleasant and light-sounding finger exercise -- some light, some shadow -- will never evoke much more for me, but a pleasant light piece which requires a hell of a lot to play it offhandedly as a pleasant and light piece


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## Dustin

I'd say a sense of awe/wonder for Op 10. No 1.

I get a really sinister/deceitful feel from the 2nd piece.


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## JohannesBrahms

Dustin said:


> I'd say a sense of awe/wonder for Op 10. No 1.
> 
> I get a really sinister/deceitful feel from the 2nd piece.


I agree with you about the sense of wonder for the first etude. It seems like the sort of wonder you get when you are on a mountain and look at the view across a valley.

With the second etude I somewhat agree with you, although it more sends a sort of panic/stressed out feel through me.


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## Ukko

1. Annoyance. Mild detestation.

2. Still annoyed with #1, usually turn off the music in the middle of the piece.


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## Feathers

Listening to No. 1 = "arpeggios...arpeggios...oooo there's a nice chord...arpeggios...more arpeggios..." Has some nice moments that are both enhanced and clouded by the arpeggios.

Listening to No. 2 = Waiting for No. 3.

(I do like the Chopin etudes, but just not those two. )


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## PetrB

Feathers said:


> Listening to No. 1 = "arpeggios...arpeggios...oooo there's a nice chord...arpeggios...more arpeggios..." Has some nice moments that are both enhanced and clouded by the arpeggios.
> 
> Listening to No. 2 = Waiting for No. 3.
> 
> (I do like the Chopin etudes, but just not those two. )


i think with the designer label of Chopin at the front of these works people may be expecting some sort of a near bathetic experience in the way of their personal emotive reactions to the music.

Well, they are, (not simple -- but) simply _Etudes_: they are not tone poems, nocturnes, ballades, etc.


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## Ukko

Is there no evidence that they were expected to be treated as _concert_ etudes?


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## PetrB

Hilltroll72 said:


> Is there no evidence that they were expected to be treated as _concert_ etudes?


Not really. There are a few, for certain, I know of one pair intended to be performed / heard as a pair (there may be others):
Op. 10, Nos. 3 & 4









Chopin's play-through cycle is the Preludes... a few assigned or attempted by early level pianists, they really don't make much sense as individual pieces. Once heard straight through, as intended, they plainly become one work.


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## DeepR

What is not to like about Op. 10 No. 1?  Even if you don't particularly like the composition, you must admit it makes the instrument shine and sound spectacular.


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## PetrB

DeepR said:


> What is not to like about Op. 10 No. 1?  Even if you don't particularly like the composition, you must admit it makes the instrument shine and sound spectacular.


... some people don't seem to know what to expect of _an Etude_, and then bring false expectations, prior the listening, to the table -- I guess.
Hey! 
Its an Etude.


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## DeepR

If you are saying that Etudes are never much more than pleasant sounding finger exercises then I totally disagree. Some of Chopin's etudes are very musical Etudes and so are some of Liszt's, Rachmaninoff's and Scriabin's.


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## Ukko

DeepR said:


> If you are saying that Etudes are never much more than pleasant sounding finger exercises then I totally disagree. Some of Chopin's etudes are very musical Etudes and so are some of Liszt's, Rachmaninoff's and Scriabin's.


There are etudes, and then there are etudes. Czerny composed a zillion of them. Debussy carefully defined what his were for. Alkan wrote etudes - apparently for virtuosos to work on. Liszt produced 'transcendental' etudes to show off with.

And those are just some piano guys.


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## Novelette

Hilltroll72 said:


> There are etudes, and then there are etudes. Czerny composed a zillion of them. Debussy carefully defined what his were for. Alkan wrote etudes - apparently for virtuosos to work on. Liszt produced 'transcendental' etudes to show off with.
> 
> And those are just some piano guys.


Continuing the list of piano etudes, have you ever heard Thalberg's Etudes? Perhaps most relatable to Chopin's Etudes, but perhaps they wouldn't vex you so?

If even they annoy you, perhaps it's some consolation that Thalberg frequently annoyed Liszt?


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## PetrB

DeepR said:


> If you are saying that Etudes are never much more than pleasant sounding finger exercises then I totally disagree. Some of Chopin's etudes are very musical Etudes and so are some of Liszt's, Rachmaninoff's and Scriabin's.


No disagreement at all. Just as you said, though, some wonderful harmonic adventure, ingenious use of arpeggios, and you have a glowing piece of music ~ IF in the hands of a genius composer. I do think people expect every Chopin piece to be deeply emotive on some pathetic plane, though, and any of the four arpeggio etudes are of a different nature as to their brilliance.

Any etude as much worth listening to as it is to solve or exercise a problem for the pianist is a good etude / piece... the literature is littered with less interesting study pieces, though -- Czerny compared to Debussy, Chopin, etc.??? LOL.


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## Ukko

PetrB said:


> [...]
> Any etude as much worth listening to as it is to solve or exercise a problem for the pianist is a good etude / piece... the literature is littered with less interesting study pieces, though -- Czerny compared to Debussy, Chopin, etc.??? LOL.


Hummel, Moscheles... Chopin's Op. 10 compared to his Op. 25... yeah, examples abound.


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## Turangalîla

PetrB said:


> Well, they are, (not simple -- but) simply _Etudes_: they are not tone poems, nocturnes, ballades, etc.


I don't think that one can merely consider Chopin's etudes as technical studies, just as we cannot do the same for the etudes of Debussy, Ligeti, etc.. They are very musical pieces.

Czerny and Brahms, on the other hand, wrote etudes that were purely for technical advancement, with little musical value-one could argue that Czerny's have some musical value, but he does not really go beyond using I, IV, and V...


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## DeepR

PetrB said:


> No disagreement at all. Just as you said, though, some wonderful harmonic adventure, ingenious use of arpeggios, and you have a glowing piece of music ~ IF in the hands of a genius composer.


Henselt Etudes are worth checking out as well for the same reasons. Maybe not as great as Chopin's but I'd say they are the next best thing if you're looking for something similar.


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## DeepR

Two of my favorites from Henselt:

Op. 5 No. 7




Op. 2 No. 3


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## PetrB

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I don't think that one can merely consider Chopin's etudes as technical studies, just as we cannot do the same for the etudes of Debussy, Ligeti, etc.. They are very musical pieces.
> 
> Czerny and Brahms, on the other hand, wrote etudes that were purely for technical advancement, with little musical value-one could argue that Czerny's have some musical value, but he does not really go beyond using I, IV, and V...


It is generally understood -- if 'history' is taken into account -- the Chopin Etudes are the precedent set of Etudes in the entire piano literature which are 100% worthy of a listen for the depth of their musicality alone.

Ergo, they are "Concert Worthy."


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## Feathers

PetrB said:


> ... some people don't seem to know what to expect of _an Etude_, and then bring false expectations, prior the listening, to the table -- I guess.
> Hey!
> Its an Etude.


It's true that these two etudes are not my favourites from Chopin, but this is not because of false expectations. These two Chopin etudes, _as etudes_, are certainly not worse than the other ones, and they serve their purposes just fine, but I don't enjoy listening to them as much, which is simply a matter of my personal aesthetic and emotional response, not my judgement of how good they are. I agree about the nature of an etude, but that's exactly why the emotional merits (or musicality) of an etude is not the only determining factor of its quality or usefulness. The etudes that I enjoy listening to don't always best serve their technical purposes, and the etudes that are the best at "being an etude" aren't always the most enjoyable to listen to. The OP's question was about what emotions do these two etudes make you feel, not the quality of the etude or how well it serves its purpose. The fact that these etudes evoke different aesthetic and emotional responses from different people is a different story.

That said, I believe that although a good etude doesn't necessarily have the same type of expression as a nocturne or ballade, it is always a nice plus for etudes to be expressive.


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## PetrB

So, hold up Etude Op 10 No 1: ask for people's personal emotional reactions to it.
Do the same with Op. 10 No. 2.

This is like a psychologist holding up an aural Rorschach blot, and asking the individuals for their reactions, what you saw, heard, thought. 

I wonder just how much emotional reaction of any sort one thinks one should have in relation to those two etudes, Hmm? If you're not fairly content with a few minutes (they are short) of harmonic changes within a brilliant pianistic configuration, as a kind of thing in itself, then that is all it is. 

A thread where everyone chats about their feelings, well... not so interesting to me compared to the actual music.


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## Feathers

PetrB said:


> A thread where everyone chats about their feelings, well... not so interesting to me compared to the actual music.


I brought up the OP only to clarify why I had responded to the question the way that I did, not to say that the OP's initial topic about feelings is the only topic of interest.


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