# Alma Deutscher



## Ravndal

Just read about this young girl (7) from Britain, who has composed a opera for a full string orchestra.

Here is the story 




Her piano sonata 




rondo for violin 




This is maybe the craziest thing i have seen.

If this is true... Seems true... i dunno.. im in shock


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## SiegendesLicht

Her last name is Deutscher, translated as "German". Germans have music in their blood.


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## Ravndal

They do. Still amazing though.


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## superhorn

So talented ! And what a little cutie ! She's adorable !


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## Albert7

You are young and composed a few pieces. I would like to see where your direction in your work goes when you get older.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Deutscher


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## PetrB

Let's just add this to the already existing other two threads on Alma Deutscher, where others have said similar to your post, as well as _many other things _


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## arpeggio

I don't know how to respond to all the hoopla concerning Ms. Deutscher.

There are many young composer prodigies out there. I do not understand what makes her so special other than she has a good public relations manager.

Once a year the orchestra I perform with has a youth concert. We have an arrangement with the Northern Virginia Music Teachers Association. Every year they submit to us music compositions that have been composed by their students. The range of ages can be anywhere from 8 to 18. Most are about the same age as Ms. Deutscher. Most of the compositions are piano works that we orchestrate and premier. Some of them are quite good.

About fifteen years ago we premiered an amazing string trio that was composed by a ten year old girl. Although it was not atonal it was still contemporary sounding.

Last year we performed a real way out jazz type piano piece composed by a ten year old boy.

Over the years we have performed many works in a variety of styles by some very talented young people.

I am sure that if she had different teachers her style would be a little more adventurous.


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## Guest

arpeggio said:


> There are many young composer prodigies out there. I do not understand what makes her so special other than she has a good public relations manager.


Was there something else special?


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## arpeggio

^^^
I do not know. I am just a dumb amateur musician. What I was trying to say was based on my experiences I have run into many talented young composers. I just remembered a few years ago we premiered a small symphony that was composed and orchestrated by a young boy who was just a few years older than her. I was guessing that Ms. Deutscher's acclaim may be result of her exposure. I will let the members who know more than I do determine if my observations are accurate.


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## PetrB

nathanb said:


> Was there something else special?


She is genuinely charming, pretty much, it seems, herself, she is undeniably cute, and she presents very well indeed. A public relations dream who needs next to no coaching.

Too, if you are the parents of such a child, and realize the enormity of the now and later cumulative costs of getting the child the teachers and tutors s/he needs and should have, then that local teacher at $12.50 a half an hour will not do. I.e. there is no waiting or postponing the fact her training should be with the best, and that is going to be more like $120 per hour per teacher, even where there are greater in place funded programs to teach music.

It would be naive for people to think highly qualified and well-paid professionals are just going to throw themselves at this child and teach her gratis, because as Arpeggio has pointed out, the musically precocious child is not as great a rarity as many seem to think.

In the summer after I had completed fifth grade, I gained admission, via an audition recording, to a highly demanding summer music camp. My audition tape was Chopin's Scherzo in Bb minor, the first movement of Beethoven's Pathetique sonata, etc. When I arrived there, I was, out of several thousand campers, 'average.' There was a seven year-old boy who won concerto competitions that summer playing Mendelssohn's Capriccio for piano and orchestra, another junior division girl, age five, who won and performed a Mozart piano concerto (all three movements, of course) and other instrumentalists of similar age that advanced.

This level of ability / accomplishment in young people, especially it seems in music, is just not that rare. Also very well-known within the classical community is just how many of these exceptional young people end up with nothing to say, and nothing special, in their performances or their compositions, and many just burn out. This is so well known that the tendency is (or at least used to be) to not make much of them publicly until they are well into their teens and are exhibiting hallmarks of really fine musicians, i.e. you heard about these kids only locally, not on national or international news circuits.

NPR has a weekly show, hosted by Christopher O'Reilly, which is nothing but the young and younger seriously precocious young performers, I think all from the United States. A child, age five or six, performing Liszt piano works at an 'amazing level' is not so very unusual to find on this show. Ergo, the wondering by a few of us aware of all this at the tremendous flap about 'one more of the same' and moreover, 'one more of the same' who is barely proven to be of real interest -- yet.


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## Nereffid

Guys.

In the words of the great 21st-century composers Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez:

"Let it go".


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## PetrB

Nereffid said:


> Guys.
> 
> In the words of the great 21st-century composers Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez:
> 
> "Let it go".


Let the flap over her go, and its gone. Really.


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## Guest

PetrB said:


> Let the flap over her go, and its gone. Really.


Exactly. Nobody here cared to point out such things about Deutscher until various masters of implicit content decided to appoint a standard classical era pastiche as the redemption of contemporary music. End the worthless cause, see no more effect.


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## Albert7

Nereffid said:


> Guys.
> 
> In the words of the great 21st-century composers Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez:
> 
> "Let it go".


Or better yet:


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## SiegendesLicht

I wish good luck to young Ms. Deutscher, and may she one day become a fine, talented, hard-working and thoughtful musician, living up to her last name


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## arpeggio

^^^^
There are those of us who have met many young musicians whose talents rival those of Ms. Deutscher. Even with her abilities the competition is rough. Just because we address the difficulties of succeeding does it mean we are against her.


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## science

Well, one way or another, she's managed to be the 2nd most controversial composer on talkclassical for several months now. Cage'd better watch his back!


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## Guest

science said:


> Well, one way or another, she's managed to be the 2nd most controversial composer on talkclassical for several months now. Cage'd better watch his back!


Sigh...a distant second 

One almost regrets that Cage composed a certain something. Over 60 years later and people struggle daily with its existence... In 60 years, Alma Deutscher won't be on anyone's radar - my calculations have her looking significantly less adorable by then.


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## arpeggio

There is nothing controversial about Ms. Deutscher.

The controversy is with everyone who is carrying on as if she is the only child prodigy out there.


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## Guest

arpeggio said:


> There is nothing controversial about Ms. Deutscher.
> 
> The controversy is with everyone who is carrying on as if she is the only child prodigy out there.


You're missing the point. There are members of this forum who consider a great contemporary composer to be 1) a cute television personality and 2) a composer of safe, accessible pastiche. The audience will decide and all that nonsense blah blah blah 

This is actually a real thing. She's not the only child prodigy, but so far, perhaps she's one of the least adventurous? That would explain it, tbh.

PURE AND SIMPLE.


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## PetrB

SiegendesLicht said:


> I wish good luck to young Ms. Deutscher, and may she one day become a fine, talented, hard-working and thoughtful musician, living up to her last name


I'm not sure what is so representative of "Ein Deutscher" when it involves an English child born of a mother whose maiden name is Steen (probably of Dutch or Belgian descent, that neutral enough mom could be a Catholic, a Protestant, a Jew or an athiest) and a father who was born an Israeli national.)

She could also, by that same general definition of that cliché profile, become the ideal Hausfrau or a master bricklayer.


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## Albert7

Interestingly enough, this is the first thread on TC devoted to discussing her works. I wonder the progress here.


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## SimonNZ

What was your reason for reviving this?


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## Albert7

SimonNZ said:


> What was your reason for reviving this?


The reason is that the archives show that Deutscher when she started out did not harbor any interest until recently. The question is what accounts for her burst in popularity as she got older?


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## SimonNZ

Well without wanting to prolong this or rake over the coals, that came from one TCer repeatedly stating that Deutscher was something like The Greatest Living Composer and represented the True Path of modern classical, not like that other wibbly-wobbly stuff. The backlash was to this (knowingly provocative?) hyperbole and not to the poor kid herself, who everyone would have been otherwise happy to leave to her own devices.


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## Guest

albertfallickwang said:


> The question is what accounts for her burst in popularity as she got older?


She never had a burst in popularity. She had a burst in mentions on one internet forum as a result of consistent inflammatory statements. No different than if I start, say, a heated, controversial "Boccherini > Beethoven" thread, which would not be the slightest change in popularity for Mr. Boccherini, really.


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## KenOC

Is Alma off-limits? Whatever. BBC catches up with her in its "Little Miss Mozart" article.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150518-little-miss-mozart


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## Guest

Things gotten too quiet around here for you, Ken?:lol:

This was the comment that most amused me:

"It is true that most ten-year-olds are unlikely to be pushing boundaries of tonality and form...."

Yeah. And apparently, it is also true that at least one BBC journalist has no idea what's happening in music today. "Pushing boundaries of tonality and form" is an activity old enough for all its practitioners to be quite dead already. To push boundaries, there actually have to be boundaries to push. Tonality is really not pushable any more, unless you ignore all the pushing that preceded your own sweet self, something Miss Deutscher is unmistakably adept at, to be sure.


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## ArtMusic

AD is the subject of professional envy (like Amadeus was). Her creativity at her tender age speaks volumes. Her success at her age speaks even more, a mirror of what contemporary composed music today should be.


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## SimonNZ

It's deja-vu all over again!


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## Guest

Professional envy, eh?

Now _there's_ funny!!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Uh oh, isn't she already fed up with the Mozart comparison? :lol:

Pushing the boundaries of tonality and form? Wait...there are boundaries? How come I don't know about this?????

I can't wait to hear Alma Deutscher's music in ten years time! It's most often the music from composers' late teens and early 20s that show certain maturity, understanding and individuality in musical composition when one has started so young. 

And I had no idea she is the subject of professional envy, can someone post a link to this?


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## Nereffid

From the Wikipedia entry of a young female composer of contemporary music:



> [She] was born in Greenville, North Carolina and began playing the violin when she was two years old. Her mother was her first teacher. She began writing music when she was ten years old, mostly in imitation of the chamber music of Mozart and Brahms. At the time, her main focus was on violin performance....
> 
> At 30, [she] became the youngest recipient of the Pulitzer Prize for Music


At this point Alma Deutscher's fans are probably _very_ excited. Vindication? Sorry... it turns out you don't win the Pulitzer for imitating Mozart and Brahms!
Caroline Shaw, the woman in question, won the 2013 prize for her _Partita for 8 Voices_.
Excerpt here:


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## Guest

SimonNZ said:


> It's deja-vu all over again!


It is. Shouldn't duplicate threads be merged by a mod?

http://www.talkclassical.com/36451-alma-deutscher.html?highlight=Deutscher

http://www.talkclassical.com/22087-alma-deutscher.html?highlight=Deutscher

http://www.talkclassical.com/35048-have-you-heard-21st.html?highlight=Deutscher


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## SimonNZ

I liked the random Darwin and Chomsky quotes thrown into that article for no good reason other than to have us believe the author reads, you know, books and stuff.


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## MoonlightSonata

"...pushing the boundaries of tonality and form..."
Heh. Heh.
You're joking, right?


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## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Wait...there are boundaries? How come I don't know about this?????


Probably mentioned in that history class you've not taken yet.



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I had no idea she is the subject of professional envy, can someone post a link to this?


http://www.talkclassical.com/38173-alma-deutscher.html#post881228


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## Albert7

And then the wheel turns around again and again.

Next.


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## Guest

It is in the nature of wheels to go round and round.

If only this wheel would take us somewhere. If we could only hook it up to a vehicle.

'Course, we have to unhook it from the hamster cage first. And then how will the hamsters get their exercise?

You see where all of this is heading, don't you?

FREE THE HAMSTERS!!!


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## Guest

PetrB said:


> Let's just add this to the already existing other two threads on Alma Deutscher, where others have said similar to your post, as well as _many other things _


You can never have enough duplicate threads!


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## Guest

Albert7 said:


> The reason is that the archives show that Deutscher when she started out did not harbor any interest until recently. The question is what accounts for her burst in popularity as she got older?


There certainly seems to be an uptick in interest.


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## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> AD is the subject of professional envy (like Amadeus was).


No, Art. This is just wrong. We may never know if you actually believe it or not, but it's wrong.


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## Albert7

Once again we have many threads here regarding her now.


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## Albert7

We should just merge all her threads into her composer guestbook now.


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## Guest

I'm going to claim that we have exactly zero threads about Alma Deutscher.

I would venture to guess that we never will have any threads about Alma Deutscher. It could happen. I just don't think it ever will.

What we do have is several threads about contemporary music which use the career of this little girl to advance an anti-modernist agenda. 

The interest is not in what she has or has not done. The interest is all in the attacking and in the defending of modernism.

Attacking modernism, a popular sport since 1810!!


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## mmsbls

I have merged the 3 Alma threads into this one.


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## ArtMusic

isorhythm said:


> No, Art. This is just wrong. We may never know if you actually believe it or not, but it's wrong.


I do believe there is professional (or artistic) envy. She has composed her own works, had these pieces premiered with full professional orchestras, gained publicity and success given her level of experience as an artist. She is experiencing relative success, more so than much older trained musicians and composers.

My simple question is: do you support her and her music? I have never been given a straight, simple answer from many. As far as I am concerned, that is a clear signal of envy.


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## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> I do believe there is professional (or artistic) envy. She has composed her own works, had these pieces premiered with full professional orchestras, gained publicity and success given her level of experience as an artist. She is experiencing relative success, more so than much older trained musicians and composers.
> 
> My simple question is: do you support her and her music? I have never been given a straight, simple answer from many. As far as I am concerned, that is a clear signal of envy.


What do you mean by support her and her music? I wish her all success. She never did anything to me, after all.

If you mean, would I choose to listen to the music she has written so far, at the age of 11 or whatever - then no. But I bet you wouldn't either. This is about something else.


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## mmsbls

ArtMusic said:


> I do believe there is professional (or artistic) envy. She has composed her own works, had these pieces premiered with full professional orchestras, gained publicity and success given her level of experience as an artist. She is experiencing relative success, more so than much older trained musicians and composers.
> 
> My simple question is: do you support her and her music? I have never been given a straight, simple answer from many. As far as I am concerned, that is a clear signal of envy.


I doubt any of us know whether some composers might envy her, but given human nature, I suspect there may be some unheralded composers who resent the minor succcess she's had. I doubt any of those composers would want to write similar works.

I think we all would generally support her in becoming an accomplished composer. I think the vast majority of us would hope she continues to enjoy writing music. I'm not sure what you mean by supporting her music. I think most of us hope she eventually begins to write music that explores newer styles to find her own voice. I don't imagine many of us would ever wish to buy works or attend concerts of the works she has written. Of course, that's not really a negative comment. She has not matured as a composer yet. How could she yet at her age?


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## scratchgolf

ArtMusic said:


> My simple question is: do you support her and her music? I have never been given a straight, simple answer from many. As far as I am concerned, that is a clear signal of envy.


So anyone who doesn't answer your question about supporting a totalitarian regime, responsible for genocide, secretly envies their power and position? I saw numerous responses to you original thread. I saw a large amount of indifference. I saw a good deal of people who argued, "Let's wait and see." I saw a few who would follow her career with anticipation. I saw a few who had never heard of her. What I didn't see was anyone toeing the line of envy, whether openly or seemingly closeted. Here's my simple answer. I take child prodigies with a grain of salt. Michelle Wie, Jennifer Capriati, Freddy Adu, or Alma Deutscher - Let them stand the test of time. Some will. Some haven't. Some are total busts. And no amount of someone wanting miss AD to be the 21st century, female Bach will make them so. Me? I'd never heard of her until your original thread. After watching embedded videos, I can say I'd rather watch Mumford & Sons open for a Bay City Rollers reunion concert than another of her works.


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## Guest

Nobody "supports" a musician or composer. "Support" I associate with a sport fan. Or a bra. The use of the word in this context betrays it is about a position, not about music.


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## EDaddy

Mozart reincarnated!


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## Woodduck

I refuse to be seen anywhere near this pathetic pseudo-discussion.

(oops)


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## Dim7

Me too, I don't want to be associated in any shape or form with dumb discussion topics.


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## Woodduck

Dim7 said:


> Me too, I don't want to be associated in any shape or form with dumb discussion topics.


Well, now we have something to discuss.


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## KenOC

Careful everybody. An earlier thread on little Alma ran 756 posts before the mods shut it down...

It's really Lord of the Flies around here sometimes.


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## SimonNZ

> The British girl is being described as 'Little Miss Mozart'_*[by who?]*_, not only because of her precocious talents, but because of her inspirations, namely: "Mozart, Schubert and Tchaikovsky - the composers of the most beautiful melodies ever written."_*[citation needed]*_


Fixed that for ya.

And are they quoting Art at the end there?


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## Albert7

Has anyone interviewed Alma personally to see whether she dislikes modernist music? Or maybe she doesn't know what direction she is headed into yet?


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## SimonNZ

At age ten? With an already busy concert schedule?

I don't see how she can have been exposed to much or any. Let alone have any context or basis for saying if she likes it.


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## Morimur

SimonNZ said:


> At age ten? With an already busy concert schedule?
> 
> I don't see how she can have been exposed to much or any. Let alone have any context or basis for saying if she likes it.


She probably loves Glazunov. :tiphat:


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## ArtMusic

SimonNZ said:


> At age ten? With an already busy concert schedule?
> 
> I don't see how she can have been exposed to much or any. Let alone have any context or basis for saying if she likes it.


She is doing what she likes, what she does best and society is recognizing that. What more can a young artist want?


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## SimonNZ

But I don't much care. And I don't see why you feel you have to care so very much.

As I've said before: let's wait and see what she's like in her twenties (possibly in the middle of her Miley-esque phase, third time out of rehab)


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## KenOC

SimonNZ said:


> As I've said before: let's wait and see what she's like in her twenties (possibly in the middle of her Miley-esque phase, third time out of rehab)


Why wait? The numbers say that by the time she's in her 20s I'll be dead. So I'll listen now and make my views known, thank you!


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## Albert7

KenOC said:


> Why wait? The numbers say that by the time she's in her 20s I'll be dead. So I'll listen now and make my views known, thank you!


Ummmm... no self-predictions on death k? 

Hopefully if Alma goes atonal on us like a mad lady, then no one will complain LOL.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

KenOC said:


> Why wait? The numbers say that by the time she's in her 20s I'll be dead. So I'll listen now and make my views known, thank you!


Whoa! How old are you? I thought you were 40 or something like that. I thought you were old but not _that_ old!


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## KenOC

COAG, I assure you that the actuarial tables are rapidly catching up with me. Many years retired.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I wish you good health and a merry life, sir.


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## KenOC

Thank you COAG! Same to you! If you can be good, good, and if not, be lucky.


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## Guest

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I thought you were 40 or something like that. I thought you were old but not _that_ old!


Whoa! 40 is old????!?!?!!!! I throw my Zimmer frame at you, you...you...foetus!!!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Lets throw in another age. 

12

Which is young. 

I'm listening to a recording of Stevie Wonder aged 12. Now, I would have to say that anyone to have a pretty well developed musical style at such a young age would be immersed in that kind of music from a very young age. Stevie Wonder practically grew up in the recording studio, and, being blind, his sense of hearing became very very important. Alma Deutscher is 10, not too far off from 12, and she has immersed herself in music that she loves which results in the kind of music she writes. Children absorb information like a sponge, and when you squeeze a sponge whatever was soaked up will come out. As people get older they cease to be 'sponges' and become...well...just people I suppose, with a much stronger idea of an individual voice and aesthetic.


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## Guest

Someone is going to mention Michael Jackson, I can feel it in my (old) bones.


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## SimonNZ

Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson, as youngster, were both charting musicians enthusiastically received by a wide audience (listening to this Art?), and were even at that age playing music that was - even if poppy - up-to-the-moment alongside the best of whatever else Motown and the R&B charts were producing.

Even as a ten year old Deutscher has to be living in a cave to think that modern music sounds like this. It actually seems, the more I think about it, as a calculated choice, not a default or obvious setting.

Just how involved are her parents in her management?


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## Dim7

I find precociousness itself quite uninteresting, and I have been so far content with Mozart when I want to listen to classicial era music or something similar, so I'm not terribly interested in Alma Deutcher's music myself, but I still find all the prescriptions about "keeping up with the times" annoying.


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## ArtMusic

SimonNZ said:


> And I don't see why you feel you have to care so very much.


She writes genuine contemporary classical music that reaches out. Pure and simple. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## isorhythm

Do you think her music is good? I don't mean good for her age, I mean in comparison with the mature work of your favorite composers.


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## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> contemporary.


You think this? Really? Just because it is written NOW that doesn't make it "contemporary."


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## ArtMusic

dogen said:


> You think this? Really? Just because it is written NOW that doesn't make it "contemporary."


As far as I am concerned, yes, AD's music is contemporary composed music that audiences are accepting. The composer will compose regardless of what you or I might think, and audiences welcome her regardless, in the real world.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> As far as I am concerned, yes, AD's music is contemporary composed music that audiences are accepting. The composer will compose regardless of what you or I might think, and audiences welcome her regardless, in the real world.


In the easiest prediction I have ever had to make, I can tell you for certain that the later works of Boulez are bound to be performed and listened to more often in the future than are the works Alma Deutscher has composed thus far or is composing now (no predictions about whatever she will compose in the future).

Making that prediction was no challenge. The real challenge is figuring out how anyone could possibly believe that the opposite is more likely.


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## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> In the easiest prediction I have ever had to make, I can tell you for certain that the later works of Boulez are bound to be performed and listened to more often in the future than are the works Alma Deutscher has composed thus far or is composing now (no predictions about whatever she will compose in the future).
> 
> Making that prediction was no challenge. The real challenge is figuring out how anyone could possibly believe that the opposite is more likely.


How is your post a response to anything ArtMusic said?


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## Mahlerian

Dim7 said:


> How is your post a response to anything ArtMusic said?


The idea that audiences are welcoming/accepting this music implies in ArtMusic's mind that it will live on. He has said so on multiple occasions.

Also, despite the existence of sold-out all-Boulez concerts, he continues to insist that audiences don't accept his music.


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## isorhythm

^That's an important point. The modern music Art doesn't like is actually much, much more popular in the real world than Alma Deutscher's (pure and simple).


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## Dim7

Mahlerian said:


> The idea that audiences are welcoming/accepting this music implies in ArtMusic's mind that it will live on. He has said so on multiple occasions.


It implies that they are accepting it now. I agree that it is unlikely that music composed by Alma Deutcher as a child will live on - even Mozart's childhood works didn't really 'live on' or at least I very rarely hear anyone talk about them.


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## Mahlerian

Dim7 said:


> It implies that they are accepting it now. I agree that it is unlikely that music composed by Alma Deutcher as a child will live on - even Mozart's childhood works didn't really 'live on' or at least I very rarely hear anyone talk about them.


Yes, but in his mind the conflation between audience acceptance and eternal acceptance into the canon is not a problem.

http://www.talkclassical.com/37898-composer-not-final-authority-post871152.html#post871152

http://www.talkclassical.com/37942-has-classical-music-died-post873874.html#post873874


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## Guest

Dim7 said:


> It implies that they are accepting it now. I agree that it is unlikely that music composed by Alma Deutcher as a child will live on - even Mozart's childhood works didn't really 'live on' or at least I very rarely hear anyone talk about them.


The singular post, out of context, implies just that, yes. Is this your first time reading ArtMusic?


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## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> As far as I am concerned, yes, AD's music is contemporary composed music that audiences are accepting. The composer will compose regardless of what you or I might think, and audiences welcome her regardless, in the real world.


In what ways are her compositions "contemporary"? As in "of the 21st century."

And why the patronising reference yet again to "real world." Until a psychiatrist says otherwise let's work on the basis there is only one world, it's real and I'm living in it.


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## Albert7

Mahlerian said:


> The idea that audiences are welcoming/accepting this music implies in ArtMusic's mind that it will live on. He has said so on multiple occasions.
> 
> Also, despite the existence of sold-out all-Boulez concerts, he continues to insist that audiences don't accept his music.


No worries... we are all glad that Boulez gets scholarly box sets while Deutscher will remain a mere novelty with 95% chance in the future. Her legacy unless she makes a dramatic turn will end up as a film composer most likely.


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## ArtMusic

Latest development, in a few days from now

*Israel Philharmonic Orchestra*
On *1.6.2015* Alma will appear as a soloist with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (in Tel Aviv, Israel). The orchestra will also play her symphonic piece: Dance of the Solent Mermaids.

I look forward to listening to this very new piece of music.


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## Dim7

ArtMusic said:


> Latest development, in a few days from now
> 
> *Israel Philharmonic Orchestra*
> On *1.6.2015* Alma will appear as a soloist with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (in Tel Aviv, Israel). The orchestra will also play her symphonic piece: Dance of the Solent Mermaids.
> 
> I look forward to listening to this very new piece of music.


I'm offended. You chose to tell us about this performance even though you fully understand there's an incredible amount of REAL contemporary composers you could have promoted instead. You are practically saying that they just compose non-music noise. Shame on you.


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## Marschallin Blair

ArtMusic said:


> Latest development, in a few days from now
> 
> *Israel Philharmonic Orchestra*
> On *1.6.2015* *Alma will appear as a soloist with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (in Tel Aviv, Israel). The orchestra will also play her symphonic piece: Dance of the Solent Mermaids*.
> 
> I look forward to listening to this very new piece of music.


Oh, I've _got_ to hear it! Thanks for mentioning it.


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## mmsbls

ArtMusic said:


> Latest development, in a few days from now
> 
> *Israel Philharmonic Orchestra*
> On *1.6.2015* Alma will appear as a soloist with the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (in Tel Aviv, Israel). The orchestra will also play her symphonic piece: Dance of the Solent Mermaids.


I'm not surprised that minor ensembles would choose to perform her works. She's very talented for her age, and many people enjoy displays of such talent. I'm not sure I understand why a major orchestra would choose to perform her works. Obviously I have not heard this recent piece, but I'd be a bit surprised if it were significantly different from the works I did sample.

Do others know of major ensembles choosing to perform works of very young composers? Is it likely that this choice is based on the combination of the following factors: a conservative audience prefers hearing conservative music and precocious youngsters "wow" people with their talents? I'm not sure what percentage of patrons or audience members of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (or other orchestras) would occasionally prefer to hear immature works by very young composers over more mature works contemporary or earlier.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh, I've _got_ to hear it! Thanks for mentioning it.


With only one week to go you'll be paying through the nose for any flight from California to Tel Aviv at this late date! Still, if you do go please write us all a review of the concert. Ta !


----------



## mmsbls

Dim7 said:


> I'm offended. You chose to tell us about this performance even though you fully understand there's an incredible amount of REAL contemporary composers you could have promoted instead. You are practically saying that they just compose non-music noise. Shame on you.


I'm not sure I follow this (unless of course you're joking - hard to tell on the internet).


----------



## Marschallin Blair

mmsbls said:


> I'm not surprised that minor ensembles would choose to perform her works. She's very talented for her age, and many people enjoy displays of such talent. I'm not sure I understand why a major orchestra would choose to perform her works. Obviously I have not heard this recent piece, but I'd be a bit surprised if it were significantly different from the works I did sample.
> 
> Do others know of major ensembles choosing to perform works of very young composers? Is it likely that this choice is based on the combination of the following factors: *a conservative audience prefers hearing conservative music and precocious youngsters "wow" people with their talents?* I'm not sure what percentage of patrons or audience members of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (or other orchestras) would occasionally prefer to hear immature works by very young composers over more mature works contemporary or earlier.


Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

'I' for one am certainly no 'conservative'; nor am I "wowed" by Alma's musical lexicon.

I merely think she's young and adorable and full of life- and seems to write music that's communicative and meaningful to her instead of trying to curry favor with certain factions by writing musical arcana.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

TalkingHead said:


> *With only one week to go you'll be paying through the nose for any flight from California to Tel Aviv at this late date!* Still, if you do go please write us all a review of the concert. Ta !


As if money were an option.


----------



## Dim7

mmsbls said:


> I'm not sure I follow this (unless of course you're joking - hard to tell on the internet).


Admittedly the over-reactions to some of ArtMusic's posts are getting hard to parody.


----------



## mmsbls

Marschallin Blair said:


> Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> 'I' for one am certainly no 'conservative'; nor am I "wowed" by Alma's musical lexicon.
> 
> I merely think she's young and adorable and full of life- and seems to write music that's communicative and meaningful to her instead of trying to curry favor with certain factions by writing musical arcana.


I was asking why the program managers for the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra would choose to select such a work. They may agree completely with your last comment, but do orchestras ever choose works based on those criteria?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

mmsbls said:


> I was asking why the program managers for the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra would choose to select such a work. They may agree completely with your last comment, but do orchestras ever choose works based on those criteria?


I don't know how orchestras work internally. I was under the impression that the music director made the choices of what the orchestra was going to perform.


----------



## Nereffid

mmsbls said:


> I was asking why the program managers for the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra would choose to select such a work. They may agree completely with your last comment, but do orchestras ever choose works based on those criteria?


We could try Googling it!

http://www.ipo.co.il/eng/Series/Subscribers/telaviv/Events,3467.aspx

Alma Deutscher appears as featured violinist and composer at a concert titled "Music for Children and Children in Music". Event summary: "Young soloists playing music written for children by Schumann, Bizet, Fauré and others". It's part of "The IPO for Kids".


----------



## Guest

D'uh ee leeted...


----------



## SeptimalTritone

I really sincerely hope that Alma can find a good career in whatever type of music she decides to work on (either performing, composing, or teaching) after she grows older. Hope she doesn't burn out from the praise she receives from her supporters. I used to be a semi-prodigy myself, and I know the negative effects later in life of lots of praise early on. Don't get me wrong, the support is good, but I hope she'll be psychologically okay.


----------



## Albert7

mmsbls said:


> I'm not surprised that minor ensembles would choose to perform her works. She's very talented for her age, and many people enjoy displays of such talent. I'm not sure I understand why a major orchestra would choose to perform her works. Obviously I have not heard this recent piece, but I'd be a bit surprised if it were significantly different from the works I did sample.
> 
> Do others know of major ensembles choosing to perform works of very young composers? Is it likely that this choice is based on the combination of the following factors: a conservative audience prefers hearing conservative music and precocious youngsters "wow" people with their talents? I'm not sure what percentage of patrons or audience members of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra (or other orchestras) would occasionally prefer to hear immature works by very young composers over more mature works contemporary or earlier.


Perhaps speculation here but perhaps pretty easy to figure this out.

I think that her parents could have paid the orchestra to play her works. It's like the vanity art gallery situation.

Good on the outside but not juried on the inside necessarily. Or inside connects with the director maybe.


----------



## ArtMusic

The Israel Philharmonic may choose to play her work well, maybe because simply that she is ... let me see ... perhaps talented and good as a composer today? I mean the same orchestra had a hard time accepting to play even Wagner's music at some stage if I am not mistaken. So on all factors considered including political ones, AD must tick all the right boxes. 

All the very best to AD's concert.


----------



## Dim7

Last two posts by ArtMusic in this thread were both posted at 13:37. Coincidence?

edit: the post above and this post.


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> Admittedly the over-reactions to some of ArtMusic's posts are getting hard to parody.


The cause is as well.


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> Last two posts by ArtMusic in this thread were both posted at 13:37. Coincidence?
> 
> edit: the post above and this post.


Whatcha sayin buddy?


----------



## Dim7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet


----------



## Guest

Nope...

You're gonna havta spell it AHT.


----------



## Albert7

ArtMusic said:


> The Israel Philharmonic may choose to play her work well, maybe because simply that she is ... let me see ... perhaps talented and good as a composer today? I mean the same orchestra had a hard time accepting to play even Wagner's music at some stage if I am not mistaken. So on all factors considered including political ones, AD must tick all the right boxes.
> 
> All the very best to AD's concert.


What are the elements of her music that makes her talented? Like specifics?


----------



## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> I mean the same orchestra had a hard time accepting to play even Wagner's music at some stage if I am not mistaken.


Can you actually not understand the Israel Philharmonic's hesitance to play Wagner?

As someone explained above, this is a concert devoted to music by children - nothing wrong with that.


----------



## SimonNZ

Dim7 said:


> Last two posts by ArtMusic in this thread were both posted at 13:37. Coincidence?
> 
> edit: the post above and this post.





Dim7 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet


So...

13:37 = "LEET" = Elite...?

So you're saying that Art is posting specifically at these times to announce himself as "elite"?

but...

you're _also_ mocking the people who criticise him...?

(or am I missing something?)


----------



## ArtMusic

Albert7 said:


> What are the elements of her music that makes her talented? Like specifics?


Because of her age, her remarkable harmonic control, melodic expression and emotional broad appeal to classical music listeners. *It is pure music, no theory, no concept, no philosophy**.* As well as being a good person, being involved in charity. She is the sort of composer I would like to get to know and invite to my house to meet.


----------



## Dustin

This thread is so toxic and fun to read! The instigation/retaliation/venom levels are off the charts!


----------



## Morimur

I can't believe this kid is a subject of discussion in TC. As she gets older, the novelty of her supposed 'genius' will wear off and we will truly begin to see if she's any good. Praising her as a prodigy at such a young age is the cruelest and stupidest thing one could possibly do — she'll turn out to be an obnoxious, entitled and selfish brat who thinks the world revolves around her.


----------



## SimonNZ

Dustin said:


> This thread is so toxic and fun to read! The instigation/retaliation/venom levels are off the charts!


You'll enjoy reading the original version then:

http://www.talkclassical.com/35048-have-you-heard-21st.html

(and for anyone else who's wondering where all this baggage and acrimony is coming from)

(edit: though not the complete story: looking back over it now I see that a great many provocations, reactions and blow-outs have been deleted)

Was that really just last November? I feel like I've aged a decade since then.


----------



## SimonNZ

"Similar Threads: Alma Mahler"

yeah...I dunno


----------



## Albert7

ArtMusic said:


> Because of her age, her remarkable harmonic control, melodic expression and emotional broad appeal to classical music listeners. *It is pure music, no theory, no concept, no philosophy**.* As well as being a good person, being involved in charity. She is the sort of composer I would like to get to know and invite to my house to meet.


Why if music not philosophical in nature is that the best form of music?


----------



## Dustin

SimonNZ said:


> You'll enjoy reading the original version then:
> 
> http://www.talkclassical.com/35048-have-you-heard-21st.html
> 
> (and for anyone else who's wondering where all this baggage and acrimony is coming from)
> 
> (edit: though not the complete story: looking back over it now I see that a great many provocations, reactions and blow-outs have been deleted)
> 
> Was that really just last November? I feel like I've aged a decade since then.


Oh yeah I remember the original very well and threw in some remarks myself.


----------



## isorhythm

SimonNZ said:


> So...
> 
> 13:37 = "LEET" = Elite...?
> 
> So you're saying that Art is posting specifically at these times to announce himself as "elite"?
> 
> but...
> 
> you're _also_ mocking the people who criticise him...?
> 
> (or am I missing something?)


It's almost like none of this is that serious and everyone should relax!


----------



## Dim7

The 1337 thing was just a stupid joke and wasn't really related to anything.


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> As if money were an option.


So, MB, did you go? What did you think?
Or did you pass on AD and opt for this instead: http://www.ojaifestival.org/festivals/2015-festival/2015-festival-schedule/


----------



## Marschallin Blair

TalkingHead said:


> So, MB, did you go? What did you think?
> Or did you pass on AD and opt for this instead: http://www.ojaifestival.org/festivals/2015-festival/2015-festival-schedule/


_










"A phantasmagorical acoustic and theatrical journey through a lifetime of Pierre Boulez's musical adventures, innovations, and discoveries. Performed within an extraordinary set designed by Frank Gehry, this multimedia event will mix live performance with archival footage and new interviews with Boulez." _

It sounds serious. Should I dress suitably appropriate?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

TalkingHead said:


> So, MB, did you go? What did you think?
> Or did you pass on AD and opt for this instead: http://www.ojaifestival.org/festivals/2015-festival/2015-festival-schedule/


Oh man that looks good


----------



## Guest

Marschallin Blair said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "A phantasmagorical acoustic and theatrical journey through a lifetime of Pierre Boulez's musical adventures, innovations, and discoveries. Performed within an extraordinary set designed by Frank Gehry, this multimedia event will mix live performance with archival footage and new interviews with Boulez." _
> 
> It sounds serious. Should I dress suitably appropriate?


Dress appropriately? I always dress down for anything serious (apart from job interviews). Just take your brain and ears, that should suffice.


----------



## Albert7

TalkingHead said:


> Dress appropriately? I always dress down for anything serious (apart from job interviews). Just take your brain and ears, that should suffice.


What happened to all those bronies?


----------



## sadams

Getting us back on topic...

It's only the first movement


----------



## ArtMusic

Young Alma is truly gifted - a performer and composer, she exemplifies what contemporary classical music culture should be for it to be relevant to listeners.


----------



## pavelissa

SiegendesLicht said:


> Her last name is Deutscher, translated as "German". Germans have music in their blood.


 "Germans have music in their blood." Please refrain from making such crass generalizations for they lead to abhorrent consequences. I am sure your intention had been good. And you certainly did not mean your remark to convey any prejudicial sentiments but pray take caution.


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> Young Alma is truly gifted - a performer and composer, she exemplifies what contemporary classical music culture should be for it to be relevant to listeners.


If you are correct, the future of classical music is doomed.:tiphat:


----------



## sadams

SiegendesLicht said:


> Her last name is Deutscher, translated as "German". Germans have music in their blood.


While Deutscher might translate as "German" Alma herself is not German but English and Israeli.


----------



## ArtMusic

Bulldog said:


> If you are correct, the future of classical music is doomed.:tiphat:


I very much doubt that. Her newly composed music is very accessible and would encourage all classical music lovers of say Mozart to Mendelssohn to want to have more of newly composed music today. Miss Alma Deutscher should stretch her imagination to compose as much as she can. It's been centuries since gifted prodigies have appeared in the new music scene.

An excellent article that gives a balanced view on child prodigy, and yes - nothing has changed for centuries, it was exactly how the boy Amadeus Mozart was treated (outright rejection and or suspicion):-

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150518-little-miss-mozart


----------



## Nereffid

ArtMusic said:


> I very much doubt that. Her newly composed music is very accessible and would encourage all classical music lovers of say Mozart to Mendelssohn to want to have more of newly composed music today. Miss Alma Deutscher should stretch her imagination to compose as much as she can. It's been centuries since gifted prodigies have appeared in the new music scene.
> 
> An excellent article that gives a balanced view on child prodigy, and yes - nothing has changed for centuries, it was exactly how the boy Amadeus Mozart was treated (outright rejection and or suspicion):-
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150518-little-miss-mozart


Still, though, it's worth pointing out that when Mozart was being feted as a prodigy, his supporters weren't saying "I would encourage all music lovers of say Rore to Sweelinck to want to have more of newly composed music today".
I don't object to her writing old-fashioned music, or to people liking her music, but you can see why some are dismissive of her being touted as a composer of "new" music _ahead of all the composers of much-newer-sounding music_, can't you?


----------



## ArtMusic

I can see why composers writing "much-newer-sounding music" feel threatened by young Alma's popularity - she is writing the type of music that most classical music listeners want. It might well be based on older models, but so what? There is nothing wrong with that. We should not be boxed in a corner thinking that any newly composed music that is not "newer-sounding" is backwards. This is pure prejudice on the music.


----------



## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> feel threatened


Evidence for this assertion?


----------



## Dim7

ArtMusic said:


> Young Alma is truly gifted - a performer and composer, she exemplifies what contemporary classical music culture should be for it to be relevant to listeners.


I wish success for Alma, but if I was trying to make classical music more "relevant" I would probably compose some kind of pop/rock/filmscore influenced semi-classical music, rather than write directly in a Classicist style.


----------



## Nereffid

ArtMusic said:


> I can see why composers writing "much-newer-sounding music" feel threatened by young Alma's popularity - she is writing the type of music that most classical music listeners want. It might well be based on older models, but so what? There is nothing wrong with that. We should not be boxed in a corner thinking that any newly composed music that is not "newer-sounding" is backwards. This is pure prejudice on the music.


To reiterate: *I don't think there's anything wrong with her writing this music, or with her being popular*.

I also don't think composers "feel threatened" by her popularity (unless they're especially insecure people).

My complaint is about how some of Alma's supporters - yourself, for instance - try to "sell" her, as some sort of role model for today's composers. Your quote above: "she exemplifies what contemporary classical music culture should be for it to be relevant to listeners". I'm sorry, but this is _nonsense_ and shows little clue about what's actually going in music today. There's shed-loads of new music being written nowadays that doesn't rely on 200-year-old models but still manages to be "relevant" or "accessible" or whatever ill-defined euphemism you want to use for "stuff I like". By holding up Alma Deutscher as how things "should be", you're doing a disservice to pretty much every other living composer (and most of those who've been dead for a hundred years).

Go ahead and like her music - I'm happy you've found some new music you like! But claiming Alma Deutscher is the future of classical music is about as welcome as waving some sliced bread in my face and exclaiming "this is the best thing since sliced bread!"


----------



## mmsbls

ArtMusic said:


> Young Alma is truly gifted - a performer and composer, she exemplifies what contemporary classical music culture should be for it to be relevant to listeners.


I know you prefer music in older styles and seem to wish that contemporary composers wrote music in those (or similar) styles. That music may be more relevant to you and some other listeners, but do you actually believe that contemporary classical music is not relevant to many others? You have seen many TC members strongly support today's music and speak very highly of it. I assume you realize that many people not only like it, but many actually prefer it to music of the past.


----------



## Guest

It's the old, old trick. You take a group of people, privilege a portion of that group, and then refer to just that portion by the name of the whole group, thereby excluding everyone in the original group who is not also a member of the privileged sub-group.

If "listeners" refers to everyone who listens, then ArtMusic's remark is obviously wrong. But if "listeners" can be made to refer only to those listeners who belong to the privileged sub-group, then that remark seems to be valid.

This is, I suspect, the source of ArtMusic's oft-stated dislike of "semantics," because anyone with any sense of what words mean and of how some words can be made to have illegitimate meanings will react to some of the ways ArtMusic uses words.

It's too bad that what I just said probably violates some term in the ToS, but that's largely because the way the ToS are set up, they protect certain kinds of speech which should be able to be called out while penalizing the callers out.


----------



## GreenMamba

It's hardly surprising that a child composer would write unoriginal sounding music. You could even argue that from a devlelopmental standpoint, that's the best way to do it. Don't try to re-invent the wheel with your juvenalia.

It will be interesting to see how Deutscher develops. Will she eventually find her own voice? Or will her youthful popularity stunt her growth, as she feels the need to please her exisiting fan base?


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> I can see why composers writing "much-newer-sounding music" feel threatened by young Alma's popularity - she is writing the type of music that most classical music listeners want.


You're making your usual fatal error - wanting to believe that the music you like most is what others like most, that the music you want for the 21st century is also what most others want. Sorry, but that's nothing more than wishful thinking.


----------



## Guest

some guy said:


> It's the old, old trick. You take a group of people, privilege a portion of that group, and then refer to just that portion by the name of the whole group, thereby excluding everyone in the original group who is not also a member of the privileged sub-group.
> 
> If "listeners" refers to everyone who listens, then ArtMusic's remark is obviously wrong. But if "listeners" can be made to refer only to those listeners who belong to the privileged sub-group, then that remark seems to be valid.
> 
> This is, I suspect, the source of ArtMusic's oft-stated dislike of "semantics," because anyone with any sense of what words mean and of how some words can be made to have illegitimate meanings will react to some of the ways ArtMusic uses words.
> 
> It's too bad that what I just said probably violates some term in the ToS, but that's largely because the way the ToS are set up, they protect certain kinds of speech which should be able to be called out while penalizing the callers out.


Let's hope it stays. Worthy of repetition.


----------



## ArtMusic

To each and their own on how they may or may not support Alma D. or *any* contemporary composer for that matter. However, I do think newly composed contemporary music following an older model should be a significant direction of new composed music for a *wider* audience. It will not be the only direction of course because in reality, there is enormous natural selection. Listeners who prefer avant-garde forms will not support Alma D. And no, I am not "waving some sliced bread" in your face nor is that the intention, I am more than happy to see gifted prodigies following their heart with music they love purely for music's sake.


----------



## ArtMusic

mmsbls said:


> I know you prefer music in older styles and seem to wish that contemporary composers wrote music in those (or similar) styles. That music may be more relevant to you and some other listeners, *but do you actually believe that contemporary classical music is not relevant to many others*? You have seen many TC members strongly support today's music and speak very highly of it. I assume you realize that many people not only like it, but many actually prefer it to music of the past.


I *did not* state that part which I highlighted in blue font. I only stated what my belief is as far as newly contemporary composed music should be. And to clarify, *not to the exclusion* of any other types of contemporary music. There should be more of, but not only of. There is support for Alma D's music and let that be, no need to tear her down.


----------



## Art Rock

If only Alma or someone like her would start composing Vienna style waltzes that Andre Rieu would perform (preferably with some vocal lines for Andrea Bocelli). Now that's what people want to hear! Win win (win) situation, for sure.


----------



## Morimur

Art Rock said:


> If only Alma or someone like her would start composing Vienna style waltzes that Andre Rieu would perform (preferably with some vocal lines for Andrea Bocelli). Now that's what people want to hear! Win win (win) situation, for sure.


Only a truly evil person would wish for such a thing.


----------



## ArtMusic

Art Rock said:


> If only Alma or someone like her would start composing Vienna style waltzes that Andre Rieu would perform (preferably with some vocal lines for Andrea Bocelli). Now that's what people want to hear! Win win (win) situation, for sure.


But thankfully Alma D. has chosen to compose differently.  Maybe one day there will be a prodigy that chooses to do so out of his/her heart, if so then let it be.


----------



## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> I *did not* state that part which I highlighted in blue font. I only stated what my belief is as far as newly contemporary composed music should be. And to clarify, *not to the exclusion* of any other types of contemporary music. There should be more of, but not only of. There is support for Alma D's music and let that be, no need to tear her down.


Well, OK. Nothing to disagree with here.


----------



## joen_cph

sadams said:


> Getting us back on topic...
> 
> It's only the first movement


IMO, there are some good ideas and vitality in her interpretation, and the cadenza is nice (a good sense of dynamic coherence and contrasts, I think). But also obvious flaws in the performance, especially in the first 2/3 (lack of integration between left and right hand voices; sometimes a weak left hand; a preference for child-like, bouncing rhythms, lessening nuances or contrasts). IMO it will take some years (5?) before any recordings of hers could become really interesting.


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> But thankfully Alma D. has chosen to compose differently.


There's the rub. She composes in an entirely derivative manner; nothing different about it.


----------



## EdwardBast

ArtMusic said:


> However, I do think newly composed contemporary music following an older model should be a significant direction of new composed music for a *wider* audience.


It happened in the 1920s and 1930s, it was called neoclassicism, and it was - and still is - popular with a wide audience. It would be great if Alma eventually learned to write like its proponents, composers like Stravinsky and Schoenberg and Bartok. Give her a couple of years.


----------



## ArtMusic

Bulldog said:


> There's the rub. She composes in an entirely derivative manner; nothing different about it.


I meant different to the Waltz music as per the post I was answering to above (143). It may well be based on older models as did numerous great composers who started composing music (studying examples of great works of the past). Nothing different about it.


----------



## ArtMusic

EdwardBast said:


> It happened in the 1920s and 1930s, it was called neoclassicism, and it was - and still is - popular with a wide audience. It would be great if Alma eventually learned to write like its proponents, composers like Stravinsky and Schoenberg and Bartok. Give her a couple of years.


I agree entirely. We are blessed to have Alma D's prodigy today and share an exciting journey with her to see where her genius takes us to in the years to come.


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> I agree entirely. We are blessed to have Alma D's prodigy today and share an exciting journey with her to see where her genius takes us to in the years to come.


There's no 'we' or 'us'; it's just you. I do not feel blessed in the least, do not consider her a genius and won't be traveling with her in future years.


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> I meant different to the Waltz music as per the post I was answering to above (143). It may well be based on older models as did numerous great composers who started composing music (studying examples of great works of the past). Nothing different about it.


Up to this point, her music is not based on older models; it is an older model.


----------



## sadams

Bulldog said:


> There's no 'we' or 'us'; it's just you. I do not feel blessed in the least, do not consider her a genius and won't be traveling with her in future years.


It is 'we' or 'us' because I for one agree with ArtMusic's statement and would very much like to see where Alma goes with her music. Also I do consider Alma a genius, because how many ten-year-old do you know of that can write classical music.


----------



## Sloe

sadams said:


> It is 'we' or 'us' because I for one agree with ArtMusic's statement and would very much like to see where Alma goes with her music. Also I do consider Alma a genius, because how many ten-year-old do you know of that can write classical music.


How many ten year olds get the opportunity to learn to write classical music and how many wants to?


----------



## Guest

sadams said:


> It is 'we' or 'us' because I for one agree with ArtMusic's statement and would very much like to see where Alma goes with her music. Also I do consider Alma a genius, because how many ten-year-old do you know of that can write classical music.


When ArtMusic writes we or us he is not speaking in acknowledgment or knowledge of your agreement. Any poster on any forum speaks only for themself. When I speak, others may agree with me but I can only speak for I. There are, of course, plenty of "we"s that disagree with such a blatantly regressive and reactionary agenda being pedalled here, dressed up in supposedly populist garb.


----------



## ArtMusic

sadams said:


> It is 'we' or 'us' because I for one agree with ArtMusic's statement and would very much like to see where Alma goes with her music. Also I do consider Alma a genius, because how many ten-year-old do you know of that can write classical music.


That's what impresses me the most - Alma D's prodigy. Most ten year old children are interested in playing computer games let alone compose symphonies and operas. I see many parallels with Wolfgang.


----------



## Nereffid

ArtMusic said:


> That's what impresses me the most - Alma D's prodigy. Most ten year old children are interested in playing computer games let alone compose symphonies and operas. I see many parallels with Wolfgang.


Pfftt... Mozart loved playing computer games; it was a constant bone of contention with Leopold. Don't you remember the infamous Donkey Kong incident in Frankfurt?


----------



## KenOC

Actually Mozart had computer game tendencies. He invented an aleatoric composing method using dice and cards, which is available on the Internet. His method produced minuet movements.


----------



## ArtMusic

Nereffid said:


> Pfftt... Mozart loved playing computer games; it was a constant bone of contention with Leopold. Don't you remember the infamous Donkey Kong incident in Frankfurt?


That was not what I wrote, child prodigies may well be interested in games and even scatological humor (as per Wolfgang) *and they composed.* Young Alma might be interested in playing with dolls and houses too. But she composed. Ordinary children don't.


----------



## Nereffid

OK, I'm definitely going with the second of my two interpretations.


----------



## Dim7

Nereffid said:


> Pfftt... Mozart loved playing computer games; it was a constant bone of contention with Leopold. Don't you remember the infamous Donkey Kong incident in Frankfurt?


It was Angry Birds, not Donkey Kong! There was no Donkey Kong back then, stupid!


----------



## arpeggio

I see that the activity has started again with the same rhetoric.

I will repeat that our community orchestra, the McLean Symphony, in the spring has a young persons concert that premiers works by young composers that are just as refined as Ms. Deutscher. My guess is that she just has a real good manager.


----------



## sadams

arpeggio said:


> I see that the activity has started again with the same rhetoric.
> 
> I will repeat that our community orchestra, the McLean Symphony, in the spring has a young persons concert that premiers works by young composers that are just as refined as Ms. Deutscher. My guess is that she just has a real good manager.


How old are these young composers, any of them ten like Alma.


----------



## ArtMusic

arpeggio said:


> I see that the activity has started again with the same rhetoric.
> 
> I will repeat that our community orchestra, the McLean Symphony, in the spring has a young persons concert that premiers works by young composers that are just as refined as Ms. Deutscher. My guess is that she just has a real good manager.


A good manager is important. Alma D may well have a good enough, then good for her. (Wolfgang had Leopold  ).


----------



## arpeggio

sadams said:


> How old are these young composers, any of them ten like Alma.


Do you honestly believe I would have made such a remark if it was not true?

Yes. I recall performing a symphony that was composed by an eleven year old boy.

Last year we had a ten year old girl who performed that first movement of a violin concerto by an obscure 19th century composer I can not remember his name.

I just thought of a string trio that was composed by a ten year old girl.

Most them were piano works and the ages ranged from ten to fifteen. Although one time we performed an orchestral work composed by an old sixteen year old.


----------



## arpeggio

I just went to You Tube and found samples of the following prodigy Emily Bear.

Emily Bear (age six): 




Of course by the time she was twelve she turned to jazz: 




Then there is this video of her performing an original jazz work on two pianos at the same time: 




I am sure we can come up with others.


----------



## sadams

arpeggio said:


> I just went to You Tube and found samples of the following prodigy Emily Bear.
> 
> Emily Bear (age six):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course by the time she was twelve she turned to jazz:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then there is this video of her performing an original jazz work on two pianos at the same time:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure we can come up with others.


I know about Emily Bear. In fact I knew about Emily long before I knew about Alma.

Here is a video of her playing Gershwin's _Rhapsody in Blue,_ she's thirteen here.





And one of an original composition call _Les Voyages_




.

_Les Voyages _garnered Emily her second *Morton Gould Young Composer Award.*

Both videos are from the s same concert.

Just FYI, Emily's learning Edvard Grieg's _Piano Concerto in A minor_ and will perform it with the *Rockford Symphony Orchestra* in late April of next year. So Emily hasn't given up on Classical entirely.


----------



## sadams

And from the Same concert as the Mozart Piano Concerto,. The third movement of Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto in G


----------



## sadams

Symphonic Work
_Dance of the Solent Mermaids _By Alma Deutscher






If you don't want the descriptive text at the bottom of the screen just click the CC button.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

sadams said:


> It is 'we' or 'us' because I for one agree with ArtMusic's statement and would very much like to see where Alma goes with her music. Also I do consider Alma a genius, because how many ten-year-old do you know of that can write classical music.


I've known at least 4. Just sayin'


----------



## Vaneyes

We'll just hafta wait 'n see. Even some of WAM's earlies don't pass the smell test.


----------



## sadams

The photos below are from a concert that Alma did in Japan with the *Tokyo Sinfonia. *Unlike her concerts with the *IPO* and the *Oviedo Filarmonia *this concert wasn't billed as a "children's concert" AND this concert was devoted entirely to Alma Deutscher's music including a performance (for the first time) of her complete violin Concerto (all three movements) and one movement of a Piano Concerto that Alma is working on, also performed were selections from her opera _Cinderella_ and _Dance of the Solent Mermaids._Hopefully there will be video(s) from this. And if there are I will post them in this thread.


----------



## SimonNZ

sadams said:


> And from the Same concert as the Mozart Piano Concerto,. The third movement of Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto in G


Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

she plays the violin like a ten year old. Not like a ten year old prodigy, but like a ten year old.


----------



## Guest

SimonNZ said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
> 
> she plays the violin like a ten year old. Not like a ten year old prodigy, but like a ten year old.


Well... I don't have much expertise here, but I would say that, if we take out the word prodigy, she's probably on the level of a solid twelve year old.


----------



## Flamme

sadams said:


> While Deutscher might translate as "German" *Alma* herself is not German but English and Israeli.


Its latin...I love that word...''Soul''


----------



## violadude

Listening to Deutcher's violin concerto, it's not at all hard for me to believe that a ten year old could have composed it. Children are, in fact, very good at absorbing information and imitating it. They have to be. Evolutionary, it's advantages for the young to be able to quickly take in large amounts of information and imitate it. It's how we learn all the complex actions that we take for granted as adults, like walking or speaking. 

It's plainly clear to me, listening to her music, that she has not yet found her voice. Her music, while pleasant, is a compilation of common, one might even say archtypal, Early Romantic melodic and accompaniment figurations. In other words, She's spent a lot of time absorbing and imitating, which is great for a young musician to do and is relatively easy to do for someone her age, but has not truly searched inwards for something unique to her. 

I don't know what her future holds, whether she will become a great musician or not, and I know many have said this before, but all the attention she is receiving, however well-intentioned, is not good for her. Why do you think so many child actors become train wrecks as they get older? The human psyche is programmed to repeat actions that produce positive re-enforcement from peers and authority figures. Kids who tap into habits that give them intense positive feedback at an early age often get trapped in a rut when they get older because the things that got them praise and attention when they were kids aren't necessarily going to when they become adults...And when their mind repeats these learned behaviors, expecting the same kind of positive feedback, and it no longer incites the same intense re-enforcement that's when the trouble starts. Hope it doesn't happen to this girl.


----------



## KenOC

violadude said:


> I don't know what her future holds, whether she will become a great musician or not, and I know many have said this before, but all the attention she is receiving, however well-intentioned, is not good for her. Why do you think so many child actors become train wrecks as they get older?


So true. OTOH, think Mozart, whose situation may be similar. The difference is, in those days a composer wasn't expected to write music except in the current generally-accepted idiom.


----------



## SimonNZ

violadude said:


> Listening to Deutcher's violin concerto, it's not at all hard for me to believe that a ten year old could have composed it.


I agree with everything you say in the following paragraphs, but feel the need to add that I was a bit weirded out by the VC, the way its so very Mozart-era, like little AD has never heard the jingle to Sesame Street, has never heard a primary-school sing-along, or indeed seemingly any other "musical" sound from the era she is living in which should be, inevitably, even inadvertently, a part of the composition.

That its so completely free of this, to the point of a kind of sterilization, makes me wonder if there is something else going on in the composition process. Some calculation from some guiding hand. I genuinely found it unnatural and unnerving, despite the surface prettyness.


----------



## SeptimalTritone

sadams said:


> And from the Same concert as the Mozart Piano Concerto,. The third movement of Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto in G


ARRRRGH! You need to modulate to the dominant earlier so that it doesn't get stuck meandering in the tonic G major for too long. And, of course, that modulatory transition needs to be more dramatic and emphasized. In general, there needs to be more shifts of contrast as per the classical era. And also, the little strange chromatic inflections in the middle of the piece don't have a relation to the whole, they're just sort of there...


----------



## SeptimalTritone

KenOC said:


> So true. OTOH, think Mozart, whose situation may be similar. The difference is, in those days a composer wasn't expected to write music except in the current generally-accepted idiom.


I have no problem with Alma Deutscher writing in a classical style, or a Leipzig early romantic style, but she should at least get the basic dramatic elements correct. It lacks contrasts and drama at both a small and large scale, and actually, just a better treatment of basic materials would suffice to improve upon these elements. And I'm not talking about super amazing counterpoint and orchestration and chromatic harmony and development, I'm talking about a basic feeling for why the elements of the classical style work...


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Now I'm really regretting not being more competent in my music lessons as a young kid. I could have been a child prodigy, too. Now I'm too old and too obscure. Sigh.


----------



## sadams

Alma Deutscher: impromptu for Paris


----------



## Pugg

She was on BBC Breakfast this morning, kind of fascinating.


----------



## Guest

Pugg said:


> She was on BBC Breakfast this morning, kind of fascinating.


Ye-e-esss...kind of...


----------



## sadams

Alma Deutscher on a short BBC feature. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34841590


----------



## Dim7

Has anyone asked Alma what she thinks about atonality?


----------



## Morimur

*Alma Deutscher upon reading some of the comments on this thread...*


----------



## arpeggio

Most of us are not critical Ms. Deutscher. She is a very talented young lady.

We are skeptical of those who are making her out to be the savior of common practice tonality.


----------



## Morimur

arpeggio said:


> Most of us are not critical Ms. Deutscher. She is a very talented young lady.
> 
> We are skeptical of those who are making her out to be the savior of common practice tonality.


Good for you. I personally don't like her; she think she all dat.

Mmm-hmm.


----------



## sadams

Alma Deutscher and Tanja Zhou playing Bach's Double Concerto for 2 violins BWV 1043 with the Jerusalem Symphony conducted by Arie Vardi. + interview with Alma and Tanja (in english)


----------



## Flamme

sadams said:


> Alma Deutscher on a short BBC feature.
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34841590


Pretty cool, looks like a smart young lady...Is she overhyped, who can tell, but in deficit of modern composers or classical music lovers in general we should give her a shot!!!


----------



## violadude

Flamme said:


> Pretty cool, looks like a smart young lady...Is she overhyped, who can tell, but in deficit of modern composers or classical music lovers in general we should give her a shot!!!


Do we have a deficit of modern composers? We have far too many modern composers that don't get enough attention already.


----------



## Blancrocher

violadude said:


> Do we have a deficit of modern composers?


It depends how greedy a person is--I know that some of our members somehow manage to listen to over 400 hours of music over the course of their morning coffee. I'll admit, though, that I'll have a hard time keeping up with all the great new stuff being made as it gets recorded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_in_classical_music#New_works


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

It seems like everyone either hates her or loves her.


----------



## GreenMamba

Abraham Lincoln said:


> It seems like everyone either hates her or loves her.


I think almost everyone is actually in between.


----------



## sadams

Alma Deutscher and Tanja Zhou playing Bach's Double Concerto for 2 pianos BWV 1060 with the Jerusalem Symphony conducted by Arik Vardi. + interview with Alma and Tanja (in english).


----------



## sadams

Alma Deutscher has signed up with a classical music agency, and now hopes to put her full-length opera on a British stage

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...prodigy-becomes-youngest-signed-to-agent.html


----------



## sadams

Alma's biography on the Askonas Holt's Website:

http://www.askonasholt.co.uk/artists/instrumentalists/violin/alma-deutscher


----------



## TurnaboutVox

Wow. I'll bet there are some tales to tell from her life.


----------



## sadams

TurnaboutVox said:


> Wow. I'll bet there are some tales to tell from her life.


Did you click on the link, or are you just assuming?


----------



## TurnaboutVox

sadams said:


> Did you click on the link, or are you just assuming?


I did click on the link, yes. She's done so much in just 11 years.


----------



## sadams

Comments on Alma from three professionals: (from Alma's website)*Violinist Anne-Sophie Mutter on Alma Deutscher*
"It is absolutely extraordinary what this young girl has managed to achieve on the violin, the piano, and in her compositions. Her musical sensitivity and her powers of expression already at this age underline her exceptional talent."
Impressionen, Mitteilungen der Anne-Sophie Mutter Stiftung, 35, Dez. 2015​*
Conductor Zubin Mehta on Alma Deutscher*
On the question of which musicians he imagines will take centre-stage in the future: "… Recently I met a child prodigy called Alma Deutscher, very young. She plays a Mozart piano concerto, and then she takes the violin and plays a French Romantic violin concerto. And in the Mozart concerto she tells me: you know, Mozart wrote a cadenza to this concerto [no. 8], but it's too simple, so I wrote one myself. I recently heard a recording with three pieces she has composed. … She came last year to my concert where we did Fledermaus (The Bat)… and afterwards she gave me comments that only an educated grown-up musician could have made.
OPUS Magazine, 2.4.2015​*
Dr Ron Weidberg, composer and musicologist, on Alma's compositions:*
Alma's most important talent is the perfect connection between her inner world and the melodies she creates, which are so beautiful because they stem directly from this inner world. Few composers can write such tunes, which from the first moment are immediately impressed upon our memory, and thus turn into the possession of all those who listen to them. Alma is one of these composers, and this is why we are confident that the melodies Alma is writing now will remain with us even when we grow up, and when we ourselves no longer remain the same as we were.​


----------



## Grizzled Ghost

sadams said:


> And from the Same concert as the Mozart Piano Concerto,. The third movement of Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto in G


This piece reminds me of Sarasate − many of his works seem to be aiming for the same sort of melodic cheerfulness. But I think Sarasate's works are generally much better. Put differently, if this were a work by Sarasate, I think it would be considered one of his weaker works.

I am in awe of her talent at her age, but I'm not ready to run out and buy all her records − or any of her records really. She may have her foot in the big leagues, but she is still a very, very small player in the big leagues.

But she has the time and the potential to grow, so we'll see. I suppose it depends at least in part on her. I wish her all the best and look forward to seeing how she has turned out in ten years.


----------



## Guest

sadams said:


> Did you click on the link, or are you just assuming?


I got news. Deutscher and Bear aren't the only two musicians in the world. Or are they the only two you're a promoter for?


----------



## sadams

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/05/alma-deutscher-10-music-world


----------



## violadude

sadams said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/05/alma-deutscher-10-music-world


This is Jack, the puppy that made the world hope again.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I want to write an opera where Alma Deutscher goes back in time, poisons Mozart, then frames a totally innocent Salieri.


----------



## sadams

In December 2016, the European premiere of the opera CINDERELLA by Alma Deutscher will take place in Vienna.

http://www.cinderella-in-vienna.com/

In December 2016/January 2017, there will be four performances of Deutscher's CINDERELLA, in a new production, with additional music, full staging and orchestra, and sung in German.


----------



## sadams

__ https://www.facebook.com/AlmaDeutscher/posts/516553728548780


----------



## sadams

A snippet of the first movement of Alma's Violin Concerto in g minor:


----------



## sadams

From Alma's Facebook page:
"We are delighted and extremely proud that Maestro Zubin Mehta will be the official Patron (Schirmherr) of the production of Alma's opera, Cinderella, in Vienna in Dec 2016-Jan 2017."

https://www.facebook.com/AlmaDeutscher/posts/518328861704600/


----------



## ArtMusic

sadams said:


> From Alma's Facebook page:
> "We are delighted and extremely proud that Maestro Zubin Mehta will be the official Patron (Schirmherr) of the production of Alma's opera, Cinderella, in Vienna in Dec 2016-Jan 2017."
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/AlmaDeutscher/posts/518328861704600/


This is fantastic news. Proof that Miss Deutscher is deserving the recognition she thoroughly deserves.


----------



## SimonNZ

sadams said:


> In December 2016, the European premiere of the opera CINDERELLA by Alma Deutscher will take place in Vienna.
> 
> http://www.cinderella-in-vienna.com/
> 
> In December 2016/January 2017, there will be four performances of Deutscher's CINDERELLA, in a new production, with additional music, full staging and orchestra, and sung in German.


The perfect opportunity for the first TC F2F. Gives us all time to buy our tickets and accomdation (at group rates!) and book our flights.

Dinner followed by a Deutscher premiere, followed by a Viennese pub crawl...followed by the morning walk of shame from the room of a filthy atonalist / filthy traditionalist.


----------



## ArtMusic

We should be supporting new music by Alma Deutscher, with pride.


----------



## Taggart

From The Daily Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/cl...concerto-at-nine-meet-britains-reluctant-hei/


----------



## Morimur

ArtMusic said:


> We should be supporting new music by Alma Deutscher, with pride.


Pride is _never_ a good thing.


----------



## arpeggio

ArtMusic said:


> We should be supporting new music by Alma Deutscher, with pride.


Your statement implies that some of us are against Ms. Deutscher. That is not true. If she can be successful composing the type of music she is composing, great. We have nothing against Mozart.

And there are so many young talented composers who compose all styles of music. I attended the Ojai festival and they had one concert that premiered works by young composers that were from sixteen to nineteen. Some were very avant-garde and some were very conservative. Why just Ms. Deutscher?


----------



## Morimur

On the subject of child prodigies...


----------



## violadude

Taggart said:


> From The Daily Telegraph
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/cl...concerto-at-nine-meet-britains-reluctant-hei/


"Britain's heir to Mozart" Oh give me a break....


----------



## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> "Britain's heir to Mozart" Oh give me a break....


Some seem to forget that the fact that Mozart was an amazing prodigy was in fact among the least important facets of his musical talents.


----------



## SimonNZ

I hadn't heard before that it was Stephen Fry who started the whole "New Mozart" thing rolling in 2007. But I'm not surprised - his wee intro to classical book suggests he views the contemporary scene and classical in general much the way Artmusic does.

"At first, Alma Deutscher would wave a stick for inspiration. Then her aunt gave her a pink skipping rope with long shiny tassels and that unlocked still more melodies. As each skipping rope wore out, her parents replaced it with another, always identical, to help her “dreaming”."

Just as it was with Mozart. Its uncanny.

It'll be interesting to see how she looks back on this magical skipping rope stuff when she's 20. Poor kid.


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> We should be supporting new music by Alma Deutscher, with pride.


I find the above statement totally obnoxious. You like her music; you, as an individual, can support her. However, there's no place for this "we" and "should" business.


----------



## Pugg

Bulldog said:


> I find the above statement totally obnoxious. You like her music; you, as an individual, can support her. However, there's no place for this "we" and "should" business.


Amen to this. :tiphat:


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

A while back I drew a jealous and enraged Alma Deutscher strangling a small plush toy of Mozart with a rope. I should've have drawn her using a skipping rope instead.


----------



## Morimur

I feel that people/media are stumbling over themselves to lavish her with praise. They've _deified_ this kid and that might not be such a good thing for her.


----------



## Pugg

Morimur said:


> I feel that people/media are stumbling over themselves to lavish her with praise. They've _deified_ this kid and that might not be such a good thing for her.


Very wise words :tiphat:


----------



## sadams




----------



## Flamme

People need a Miracle...


----------



## Pugg

sadams said:


>


This video is blocked is what I am getting.


----------



## Guest

Pugg said:


> This video is blocked is what I am getting.


Dear Pugg,watch on YouTube.You have just to click.:tiphat:


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

The people want a Mozart, so the media delivers


----------



## violadude

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> The people want a Mozart, so the media delivers


That's something that the media could never deliver. There was only one Mozart.


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

violadude said:


> That's something that the media could never deliver. There was only one Mozart.


That's obviously not going to stop them from trying to create one


----------



## ArtMusic

I prefer to concentrate on her music, which is of course wonderful pieces.


----------



## Pugg

ArtMusic said:


> I prefer to concentrate on her music, which is of course wonderful pieces.


You are always so wise.


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

ArtMusic said:


> I prefer to concentrate on her music, which is of course wonderful pieces.


Possibly the wisest thing I've ever heard


----------



## Tchaikov6

I wonder where Alma's compositional style will go to. She is obviously classically influenced but I hope she will soon go more neo-Romantic or early 20th century. God forbid she starts composing minimalist or experimental music like Cage, Adams, or Glass. She is too great of genius to do that.


----------



## Pugg

Tchaikov6 said:


> I wonder where Alma's compositional style will go to. She is obviously classically influenced but I hope she will soon go more neo-Romantic or early 20th century. God forbid she starts composing minimalist or experimental music like Cage, Adams, or Glass. She is too great of genius to do that.


Oh, dear opening a can of worms.


----------



## KenOC

I hope little Alma continues to write the kind of music she likes, whatever that might be.


----------



## ST4

Pugg said:


> Oh, dear opening a can of worms.


Yes please, worms are a delicacy in some countries. Don't be rude about it please


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

What if Alma Deutscher was actually worms?


----------



## ST4

Abraham Lincoln said:


> What if Alma Deutscher was actually worms?


At her age, she's probably been caught eating worms from their garden, her parents had to put a fence up, then they told her to get back to that piano concerto in C major..........


----------



## Nereffid

Tchaikov6 said:


> I wonder where Alma's compositional style will go to. She is obviously classically influenced but I hope she will soon go more neo-Romantic or early 20th century. God forbid she starts composing minimalist or experimental music like Cage, Adams, or Glass. She is too great of genius to do that.


Nah, don't want none of that bait.


----------



## Skilmarilion

Tchaikov6 said:


> I wonder where Alma's compositional style will go to. She is obviously classically influenced but I hope she will soon go more neo-Romantic or early 20th century. God forbid she starts composing minimalist or experimental music like Cage, Adams, or Glass. She is too great of genius to do that.


Minimalism and genius, as concepts, are not necessarily mutually exclusive. 

(btw, neither are minimalism and experimentalism ... )


----------



## Bulldog

Tchaikov6 said:


> I wonder where Alma's compositional style will go to. She is obviously classically influenced but I hope she will soon go more neo-Romantic or early 20th century. God forbid she starts composing minimalist or experimental music like Cage, Adams, or Glass. She is too great of genius to do that.


I think it's way too early to pin the genius tag on Alma. I'd just say that she's highly accomplished for her age.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

There's even a possibility she might not even be a "genius" at all.


----------



## ArtMusic

Genius or not, Alma is achieving what any living composer wishes for, that is successful recognition of her work in performance. Contemporaries who are jealous of her talent and success will try to negate her achievement - it is a consistent historical observation that we are all very familiar with, from Wolfgang to Korngold. Fact.


----------



## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> Genius or not, Alma is achieving what any living composer wishes for, that is successful recognition of her work in performance. Contemporaries who are jealous of her talent and success will try to negate her achievement - it is a consistent historical observation that we are all very familiar with, from Wolfgang to Korngold. Fact.


Your "historical analysis" does not take into consideration the massive impact that media and sensationalism has had on the culture in the last 100 or so years. Nor does it take into consideration the shift in demographics and societal standing/function that Classical Music has taken since Mozart's time. In fact, your "historical analysis" is actually quite void of any historical awareness. Fact.


----------



## violadude

Tchaikov6 said:


> I wonder where Alma's compositional style will go to. She is obviously classically influenced but I hope she will soon go more neo-Romantic or early 20th century. God forbid she starts composing minimalist or experimental music like Cage, Adams, or Glass. She is too great of genius to do that.


By the way, while I'm at it, what does the style a particular composer decides to pursue have anything to do with their musical intelligence? If you don't use triads in a particular, traditional way, you're not intelligent musically? What?


----------



## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> Your "historical analysis" does not take into consideration the massive impact that media and sensationalism has had on the culture in the last 100 or so years. Nor does it take into consideration the shift in demographics and societal standing/function that Classical Music has taken since Mozart's time. In fact, your "historical analysis" is actually quite void of any historical awareness. Fact.


No, I was more interested in the human condition and prejudice that continue to exist when prodigious new talent in art get successful recognition.


----------



## isorhythm

ArtMusic said:


> Genius or not, Alma is achieving what any living composer wishes for, that is successful recognition of her work in performance. Contemporaries who are jealous of her talent and success will try to negate her achievement - it is a consistent historical observation that we are all very familiar with, from Wolfgang to Korngold. Fact.


I promise you with absolute certainty that no living musician over the age of 16 is jealous of Alma Deutscher.

Anyway, I wish her the best.


----------



## Friendlyneighbourhood

ArtMusic said:


> Genius or not, Alma is achieving what any living composer wishes for, that is successful recognition of her work in performance. Contemporaries who are jealous of her talent and success will try to negate her achievement - it is a consistent historical observation that we are all very familiar with, from Wolfgang to Korngold. Opinion.


Why would any grown up be jealous of a 5 yr old girl who composes inexpressive Mozart pastiches? Fact.


----------



## sadams

Friendlyneighbourhood said:


> Why would any grown up be jealous of a 5 yr old girl who composes inexpressive Mozart pastiches? Fact.


Alma IS 11 years old NOT 5 years old, She was born in 2005


----------



## Pugg

sadams said:


> Alma IS 11 years old NOT 5 years old, She was born in 2005


That's clear then, we can all move on.


----------



## KenOC

sadams said:


> Alma IS 11 years old NOT 5 years old, She was born in 2005


Well then, she should be writing like Ferneyhough. At least! :lol:


----------



## PlaySalieri

PetrB said:


> She is genuinely charming, pretty much, it seems, herself, she is undeniably cute, and she presents very well indeed. A public relations dream who needs next to no coaching.
> 
> *Too, if you are the parents of such a child, and realize the enormity of the now and later cumulative costs of getting the child the teachers and tutors s/he needs and should have, then that local teacher at $12.50 a half an hour will not do. I.e. there is no waiting or postponing the fact her training should be with the best, and that is going to be more like $120 per hour per teacher, even where there are greater in place funded programs to teach music.
> 
> It would be naive for people to think highly qualified and well-paid professionals are just going to throw themselves at this child and teach her gratis, because as Arpeggio has pointed out, the musically precocious child is not as great a rarity as many seem to think.*
> 
> In the summer after I had completed fifth grade, I gained admission, via an audition recording, to a highly demanding summer music camp. My audition tape was Chopin's Scherzo in Bb minor, the first movement of Beethoven's Pathetique sonata, etc. When I arrived there, I was, out of several thousand campers, 'average.' There was a seven year-old boy who won concerto competitions that summer playing Mendelssohn's Capriccio for piano and orchestra, another junior division girl, age five, who won and performed a Mozart piano concerto (all three movements, of course) and other instrumentalists of similar age that advanced.
> 
> This level of ability / accomplishment in young people, especially it seems in music, is just not that rare. Also very well-known within the classical community is just how many of these exceptional young people end up with nothing to say, and nothing special, in their performances or their compositions, and many just burn out. This is so well known that the tendency is (or at least used to be) to not make much of them publicly until they are well into their teens and are exhibiting hallmarks of really fine musicians, i.e. you heard about these kids only locally, not on national or international news circuits.
> 
> NPR has a weekly show, hosted by Christopher O'Reilly, which is nothing but the young and younger seriously precocious young performers, I think all from the United States. A child, age five or six, performing Liszt piano works at an 'amazing level' is not so very unusual to find on this show. Ergo, the wondering by a few of us aware of all this at the tremendous flap about 'one more of the same' and moreover, 'one more of the same' who is barely proven to be of real interest -- yet.


You are really correct with what you say here. Yes talents are not so rare and parents should think carefully before they send a young talent on the road to a professional career. I have my own son as an example - he started at 3 - achieved 5 grade 8s by the age of 10 - played with orchestras behind him. He had top tuition - at a cost that has left the family with a considerable financial burden ( you are right - no matter how brilliant you are - nobody teaches for free). 
So he had a musical future - but we left options open for him - allowed him to devote time to other subjects. And at 13 his interest started to drift in the direction of science - as parents we talked to him and understood his heart is not in music. And so we shed the teachers - and now he is working towards his goal. He still plays to keep his fingers alive - just in case he has a change of heart. But it is looking like he will not reverse his decision.
So parents must keep open minded - no matter how much investment in time and money there has been. We dont regret anything - as the music gave him a chance to develop amazing powers of concentration and stamina which is now paying dividends in his scientific studies. He is happy.
It looks like Alama will succeed in music - she genuinely seems to enjoy it - though of course in front of a camera is one picture - you never know what is going on behind the scenes.


----------



## sadams




----------



## Bulldog

sadams said:


>


That sounded like it was over 200 years old. Not bad, though. Is Alma aware she's living in the 21st century?


----------



## Pugg

Bulldog said:


> That sounded like it was over 200 years old. Not bad, though. Is Alma aware she's living in the 21st century?


Many people doubting that.


----------



## pcnog11

I wish her compositions/recordings are more available.


----------



## Pugg

pcnog11 said:


> I wish her compositions/recordings are more available.


Sometimes it's good to wait.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Bulldog said:


> That sounded like it was over 200 years old. Not bad, though. Is Alma aware she's living in the 21st century?


Dont be too harsh - in time she will gradually find her own voice. Mozart didnt start to find his true voice until maybe 17/18 years.


----------



## sadams




----------



## ArtMusic

*World premiere of Alma's opera Cinderalla* conducted by Zubin Mehta

http://www.almadeutscher.com/cinderella

There is no doubt Alma Deutscher is a contemporary composer on the path to greatness in our own times with new music. New music like it's never been written for a while.


----------



## sadams

ArtMusic said:


> *World premiere of Alma's opera Cinderalla* conducted by Zubin Mehta
> 
> http://www.almadeutscher.com/cinderella
> 
> There is no doubt Alma Deutscher is a contemporary composer on the path to greatness in our own times with new music. New music like it's never been written for a while.


*Zubin Mehta* is not conducting CINDERELLA, it is being conducted by: *Vinicuis Kattah.

*http://www.cinderella-in-vienna.com/cast

*Zubin Mehta *is only it's principle patron and not it's conductor


----------



## Pugg

sadams said:


> *Zubin Mehta* is not conducting CINDERELLA, it is being conducted by: *Vinicuis Kattah.
> 
> *http://www.cinderella-in-vienna.com/cast
> Zubin Mehta is only it's principle patron and not it's conductor


Good to know, now we can all sleep easy.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

Many people are pointing out the obvious fact that this is pastiche, but not the equally obvious point that this is _really bad_ pastiche.


----------



## mmsbls

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Many people are pointing out the obvious fact that this is pastiche, but not the equally obvious point that this is _really bad_ pastiche.


Would you say it's really bad for the average 11 year-old composer?


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

mmsbls said:


> Would you say it's really bad for the average 11 year-old composer?


I would say that the music of anyone who is being given professional performances has to be judged solely on that music's own merits, irrespective of age. And on that merit, this is just bad music, even though I've no doubt that she could indeed become, in due time and with due maturity, a fine composer.


----------



## mmsbls

Retrograde Inversion said:


> I would say that the music of anyone who is being given professional performances has to be judged solely on that music's own merits, irrespective of age. And on that merit, this is just bad music, even though I've no doubt that she could indeed become, in due time and with due maturity, a fine composer.


Fair enough..............


----------



## sadams

Retrograde Inversion said:


> I would say that the music of anyone who is being given professional performances has to be judged solely on that music's own merits, irrespective of age. And on that merit, this is just bad music, even though I've no doubt that she could indeed become, in due time and with due maturity, a fine composer.


Why do you consider it bad? Is it bad simply because it's tonal music and that's not supposedly what modern classical composers are suppose to write (modern=atonal), or is it bad because you don't like it, or is it bad because this is music that everybody can enjoy without having to have a music degree to do so, or is there some other reason? Another question; If this is as bad as you say it is then why on earth is  Maestro Zubin Mehta principle patron for Deutscher's opera CINDERELLA, either Zubin is deaf and cannot hear just how bad YOU CLAIM DEUTSCHER'S MUSIC TO BE or maybe he has a lot more respect for it and does not consider it to be bad, that it actually has merits. I kind of believe it's the latter and not the former.


----------



## isorhythm

sadams said:


> Why do you consider it bad? Is it bad simply because it's tonal music and that's not supposedly what modern classical composers are suppose to write (modern=atonal), or is it bad because you don't like it, or is it bad because this is music that everybody can enjoy without having to have a music degree to do so, or is there some other reason? Another question; If this is as bad as you say it is then why on earth is Zubin Mehta principle patron for Deutscher's opera CINDERELLA, either Zubin is deaf and cannot hear just how bad YOU CLAIM DEUTSCHER'S MUSIC TO BE or maybe he has a lot more respect for it and does not consider it to be bad, that it actually has merits. I kind of believe it's that latter and not the former.


You know, no one really wants to be evaluating music written by this presumably very nice 11-year-old by the same standards they would evaluate other music. You're putting them in that position (or they're taking the bait, I guess).


----------



## ArtMusic

sadams said:


> *Zubin Mehta* is not conducting CINDERELLA, it is being conducted by: *Vinicuis Kattah.
> 
> *http://www.cinderella-in-vienna.com/cast
> 
> *Zubin Mehta *is only it's principle patron and not it's conductor


Even better than, a great conductor as principle patron shows high well regarded the music is.


----------



## ArtMusic

sadams said:


> Why do you consider it bad? Is it bad simply because it's tonal music and that's not supposedly what modern classical composers are suppose to write (modern=atonal), or is it bad because you don't like it, or is it bad because this is music that everybody can enjoy without having to have a music degree to do so, or is there some other reason? Another question; If this is as bad as you say it is then why on earth is  Maestro Zubin Mehta principle patron for Deutscher's opera CINDERELLA, either Zubin is deaf and cannot hear just how bad YOU CLAIM DEUTSCHER'S MUSIC TO BE or maybe he has a lot more respect for it and does not consider it to be bad, that it actually has merits. I kind of believe it's the latter and not the former.


It is the same observation as when Wolfgang wrote his operas at a similar age, people were jealous, critical, suspicious etc. History repeats itself.


----------



## pcnog11

sadams said:


>


She is now a bit mature, but still young. You can hear a better articulation in her playing. Great progress!


----------



## Chronochromie

ArtMusic said:


> It is the same observation as when Wolfgang wrote his operas at a similar age, people were jealous, critical, suspicious etc. History repeats itself.


Yes, that's exactly what's happening here ...


----------



## violadude

sadams said:


> Why do you consider it bad? Is it bad simply because it's tonal music and that's not supposedly what modern classical composers are suppose to write (modern=atonal), or is it bad because you don't like it, or is it bad because this is music that everybody can enjoy without having to have a music degree to do so, or is there some other reason? Another question; If this is as bad as you say it is then why on earth is  Maestro Zubin Mehta principle patron for Deutscher's opera CINDERELLA, either Zubin is deaf and cannot hear just how bad YOU CLAIM DEUTSCHER'S MUSIC TO BE or maybe he has a lot more respect for it and does not consider it to be bad, that it actually has merits. I kind of believe it's the latter and not the former.


It's bad because it's like a literal copy of a Mozart or Mendelssohn without any of the inspiration or depth.

What she's doing so far isn't so much "composing" as it is "Monkey-see, Monkey-doing".


----------



## Pugg

ArtMusic said:


> It is the same observation as when Wolfgang wrote his operas at a similar age, people were jealous, critical, suspicious etc. History repeats itself.


Not always in the same great way I must add


----------



## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> It is the same observation as when Wolfgang wrote his operas at a similar age, people were jealous, critical, suspicious etc. History repeats itself.


Ya...except Mozart's Operas are among the greatest, most original pieces in the genre.

Alma's pieces....are not.


----------



## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> Ya...except Mozart's Operas are among the greatest, most original pieces in the genre.
> 
> Alma's pieces....are not.


Her music communicates with a lot of people that would never listen to any new note composed today - it is giving contemporary music a new sense of purpose and relevance.


----------



## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> Her music communicates with a lot of people that would never listen to any new note composed today - *it is giving contemporary music a new sense of purpose and relevance.*


If this is the case, can you name me a contemporary composer that has been inspired by her work?

I think what's actually happening is a bunch of people like the gawk at children who are good at things because they don't actually understand how that thing works and are impressed that a child can do it. That's nothing new. People have always been swept away by children who are good at stuff. Her music really will not have any impact on contemporary music.


----------



## sadams

violadude said:


> If this is the case, can you name me a contemporary composer that has been inspired by her work?
> 
> I think what's actually happening is a bunch of people like the gawk at children who are good at things because they don't actually understand how that thing works and are impressed that a child can do it. That's nothing new. People have always been swept away by children who are good at stuff. Her music really will not have any impact on contemporary music.
> 
> Jeeze man, this reminds me of someone who would watch American Idol and ACTUALLY believe the winners are the best singers out there.


Name a composer in Mozart's day that was inspired by the pieces that Mozart wrote when he was eleven (that's the same age that Alma is now)


----------



## violadude

sadams said:


> Name a composer in Mozart's day that was inspired by the pieces that Mozart wrote when he was eleven (that's the same age that Alma is now)


No one. I was replying to the assertion that Alma's music is "giving contemporary music a new sense of purpose and relevance. " There's no reason to assume that if there are not yet any composers influenced by her work.

So are just you assuming that Alma will reach Mozart's level just because or what?


----------



## Dim7

Retrograde Inversion said:


> Many people are pointing out the obvious fact that this is pastiche, but not the equally obvious point that this is _really bad_ pastiche.


Like the "obvious" fact that atonal music is unnatural and Schoenberg's music is ugly and Xenakis just noise etc. etc.


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> Like the "obvious" fact that atonal music is unnatural and Schoenberg's music is ugly and Xenakis just noise etc. etc.


Every language you don't understand is just noice.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Let'e keep Alma in context - it is highly unlikely she will develop into a composer that is accepted by the serious musical world as someone who has made a valuable contribution to contemporary music. I agree with the view that she has been well marketed and her chief attraction is her age the the ability to compose music that sounds nice to the majority of listeners. At her age Mozart was imitating and learning from his contemporaries - Haydn notably - the greatest composer in the world at that time. He later learned from Bach and he established his own voice in his late teens - his sy no 25 and violin concertos 3-5 in particular are proof of this. He left behind the musical elite of those times in his mid 20s. 
Alma is imitating the classical masters - and is therefore utterly out of touch with modern classical music. Unless she evolves musically and establishes her own unique style in the context of the 21stC - she will only ever be remembered as the child prodigy she currently is.


----------



## Czech composer

stomanek said:


> Alma is imitating the classical masters - and is therefore utterly out of touch with modern classical music.


Or maybeeee modern classical music is out of touch with music at all.


----------



## violadude

Czech composer said:


> Or maybeeee modern classical music is out of touch with music at all.


Uh no...Modern Classical Music is so diverse that's I don't see how one would think that unless they define music so narrowly that nothing past 1875 counts.


----------



## KenOC

stomanek said:


> ...her chief attraction is her age the the ability to compose music that sounds nice to the majority of listeners. ... and is therefore utterly out of touch with modern classical music.


Why do I find this disturbing?


----------



## David OByrne

For those that think she is a genius, what will you say when she grows up and becomes a mature adult composing music influenced by contemporary music? Is she suddenly now talentless and composing noise?


----------



## mmsbls

Maybe she'll transition to performing full time, or maybe she'll write software or sell real estate. But if she continued to compose as she matured and wrote music influenced by more recent developments in classical music, I would be fascinated to hear her talk about her musical journey as a composer.


----------



## Retrograde Inversion

As a point of comparison, here are Britten's _Quatre chansons françaises_, written in 1928 at age 14:






If Deutscher is writing anything as accomplished as that in three years time, _then_ I'll be impressed.


----------



## PlaySalieri

The first perf of cinderella in vienna is sold out

tickets from 29euro - cheap for an opera - but still I am amazed that people are prepared to pay to hear her music - expected it is mainly parents taking kiddies.
clever move to stage it in Vienna


----------



## Pugg

stomanek said:


> The first perf of cinderella in vienna is sold out
> 
> tickets from 29euro - cheap for an opera - but still I am amazed that people are prepared to pay to hear her music - expected it is mainly parents taking kiddies.
> clever move to stage it in Vienna


For that price.....I would go without hesitation, a night out eating coast more these days.


----------



## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> If this is the case, can you name me a contemporary composer that has been inspired by her work?
> 
> I think what's actually happening is a bunch of people like the gawk at children who are good at things because they don't actually understand how that thing works and are impressed that a child can do it. That's nothing new. People have always been swept away by children who are good at stuff. Her music really will not have any impact on contemporary music.


Her music should inspire the direction of contemporary composed music if living composers want their music to be relevant to society, not a niche group.


----------



## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> Her music should inspire the direction of contemporary composed music if living composers want their music to be relevant to society, not a niche group.


It's not relevant to anything happening in any current musical trend in any genre.

A lot of people on this forum might not enjoy avant-garde stuff, or "atonal" music whatever that means to them. But they might like Reich or Glass, or Arvo Part, or Michael Daughtry or late Penderecki or Schnittke. Those trends are relevant to them.

An exact carbon copy of Mendelssohn minus the inspiration or authenticity is relevant to nobody. But a performing monkey-style child prodigy has always and will always be relevant to a certain group of people who find that entertaining. Not much to do with "The Classical Music Community" at large. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## KenOC

violadude said:


> It's not relevant to anything happening in any current musical trend in any genre.


Ja, I said the same of old Beethoven in his day. Mein Gott, I vas not wrong!


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> Her music should inspire the direction of contemporary composed music if living composers want their music to be relevant to society, not a niche group.


She's about as relevant to modern society as the bug I squashed this morning. Actually, bugs are always relevant.


----------



## violadude

KenOC said:


> Ja, I said the same of old Beethoven in his day. Mein Gott, I vas not wrong!


Ya....except Beethoven's music had a direct attachment to the Classical Era style that he was alive for....


----------



## pcnog11

I am not a big fan of Alma, but I like listening to her. She is cute and very talented both as a musician and composer. I find some of the comments in this tread a bit critical for a 10-year old. Most youngster at this age are playing like normal kids and is not mature enough or start to find themselves. She may be a bit mature than an average 10-year old but she needs to discover her own music space, style and audience. Let her find herself like most kids are. We need to give her space and opportunity. Try to remember your days when you were an early teen, probably you had not even learn to appreciate classical music. You have to give her some credit that she is playing and composing professionally.


----------



## violadude

pcnog11 said:


> I am not a big fan of Alma, but I like listening to her. She is cute and very talented both as a musician and composer. I find some of the comments in this tread a bit critical for a 10-year old. Most youngster at this age are playing like normal kids and is not mature enough or start to find themselves. She may be a bit mature than an average 10-year old but she needs to discover her own music space, style and audience. Let her find herself like most kids are. We need to give her space and opportunity. Try to remember your days when you were an early teen, probably you had not even learn to appreciate classical music. You have to give her some credit that she is playing and composing professionally.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not criticizing Alma. I'm criticizing the few people on this forum who have this strange notion that literally repeating the past is or should be the future of Classical Music.


----------



## Lenny

violadude said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not criticizing Alma. I'm criticizing the few people on this forum who have this strange notion that literally repeating the past is or should be the future of Classical Music.


I also find this tale, almost canonized "Mozart-child-prodigy-narrative", a bit difficult to swallow.

I know almost nothing about how CM is created today and what it takes (I actually want to keep it mostly that way... my worst nightmare would be to find out there's no "miracle" behind the music..), so I'm just speculating that it is like any other field today: very specialized.

But of course there is nothing wrong in Alma's musical career.. I just hope everything's okay with that. The media exposure is just somehow disturbing, it leaves a bad taste. Which most likely tells you more about me.


----------



## mmsbls

I think it would be interesting to compare Alma to other prodigies looking not so much at their ability but rather at their style. Did other prodigies write in older styles or new styles? There are several who in theory could be compared. I found these on Wikipedia.

Gian Menotti wrote an opera at age 11 in 1922.
Nino Rota wrote an oratorio at age 10 in 1921.
Varese wrote an opera at age 12 in 1895.
Samuel Barber attempted an opera at age 10 in 1920.

I don't know how easy it would be to hear any of those works. While they all wrote in or near the 20th century, I think the comparison could be problematic because they were writing 100 years ago. There was a recent prodigy who could be a better comparison - Jay Greeenberg who wrote 5 symphonies by age 12 (2003). I have not heard his symphonies, but I will look to see if I can find any.

Incidentally, of the 20 or so composer prodigies listed, one is very near and dear to our hearts - Frederik Magle who is listed as composing something significant at age 7 (what he wrote is not listed).


----------



## KenOC

I attempted to write an opera at 15, but got no farther than the title aria, sung while swinging upside down from a chandelier: "Calories Don't Count." The libretto is still available.

https://www.amazon.com/Calories-Don...82815440&sr=1-2&keywords=calories+don't+count


----------



## KenOC

Erich Wolfgang Korngold was another prodigy, writing his first full ballet at the age of eleven. He continued to compose successful works through his teen year and later became one of the leading music composers in Hollywood. The list of his films is impressive.

He died young, at 60.


----------



## PlaySalieri

She has at least the potential to be an important composer of the future - to be able to produce fully turned out and completed orchestral/vocal pieces in any style is a feat beyond many mature musicians. She may suddenly pit her skills against other young composers in composition competitions - lose - which she will do - panels tend to reject imitations of classical/romantic music - favouring a more adventurous modern style. Such failures may trigger something in her and if she does what her peers are doing - with her talents - she might become something in the world of contemporary music.
Of course - she may be proving there is a market for doing more of what she has already done - make a pile of money and just remain what she is and be happy with it.


----------



## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Erich Wolfgang Korngold was another prodigy, writing his first full ballet at the age of eleven. He continued to compose successful works through his teen year and later became one of the leading music composers in Hollywood. The list of his films is impressive.
> 
> He died young, at 60.


I have heard his early k/b pieces and they are interesting - rooted in the 20thC.


----------



## Nereffid

violadude said:


> It's not relevant to anything happening in any current musical trend in any genre.
> 
> A lot of people on this forum might not enjoy avant-garde stuff, or "atonal" music whatever that means to them. But they might like Reich or Glass, or Arvo Part, or Michael Daughtry or late Penderecki or Schnittke. Those trends are relevant to them.
> 
> An exact carbon copy of Mendelssohn minus the inspiration or authenticity is relevant to nobody. But a performing monkey-style child prodigy has always and will always be relevant to a certain group of people who find that entertaining. Not much to do with "The Classical Music Community" at large. Nothing more, nothing less.





violadude said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not criticizing Alma. I'm criticizing the few people on this forum who have this strange notion that literally repeating the past is or should be the future of Classical Music.


I agree with you, but at the same time I think anyone who likes _new_ music has to acknowledge that _old_ music is very much a part of Classical Music _as a whole_ in a way that it wasn't 50 or 100 years ago. Alma Deutscher may have nothing at all to do with _new_ music, but what she's doing nevertheless has some relevance by virtue of the fact that it's merely a repeat of the past.
To be clear - the idea that Alma Deutscher is at the forefront of a new movement that will take music forward is laughable to me. I'm pretty sure that if she were an adult and composing this music she'd receive zero attention. But still I think it's reasonable to imagine the possibility of a long-term and (audience-wise) not-especially-small niche for "retro" composers. She's not "the future", but she might be a little part of it.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

violadude said:


> An exact carbon copy of Mendelssohn minus the inspiration or authenticity is relevant to nobody. But a performing monkey-style child prodigy has always and will always be relevant to a certain group of people who find that entertaining. Not much to do with "The Classical Music Community" at large. Nothing more, nothing less.


Why am I being called out like this?


----------



## pcnog11

violadude said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not criticizing Alma. I'm criticizing the few people on this forum who have this strange notion that literally repeating the past is or should be the future of Classical Music.


Good comment, violadude.

All we can speak about Alma is what she has already done up to this point of time. If we start speculating the ifs and maybes, are we start controlling her future? If so, can anyone of us control our own future to begin with?


----------



## violadude

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Why am I being called out like this?


Because Alma Deutcher is copying you...roughly.


----------



## KenOC

For God's sake, dudes and dudettes! Alma is a little girl, writing the kind of music she likes. Maybe some of us need to lighten up, just a wee bit.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

violadude said:


> Because Alma Deutcher is copying you...roughly.


Then I'll have to assert my dominance as the alpha carbon copy of Mendelssohn.


----------



## pcnog11

What would Alma think if she is reading this thread? Are we helping her to build her career or are we raining on her parade? If you have to choose one, which one would you choose?


----------



## Pugg

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Why am I being called out like this?





violadude said:


> Because Alma Deutcher is copying you...roughly.


This would be the best two post of the day!


----------



## Chronochromie

KenOC said:


> For God's sake, dudes and dudettes! Alma is a little girl, writing the kind of music she likes. Maybe some of us need to lighten up, just a wee bit.


Those who are treating her like the next Mozart, maybe?


----------



## Chronochromie

pcnog11 said:


> What would Alma think if she is reading this thread? Are we helping her to build her career or are we raining on her parade? If you have to choose one, which one would you choose?


Not outright praising her because she is a prodigy and can write music at a young age and dismissing claims that she's the next Mozart or the future of classical music is hardly "raining on her parade".


----------



## ArtMusic

pcnog11 said:


> What would Alma think if she is reading this thread? Are we helping her to build her career or are we raining on her parade? If you have to choose one, which one would you choose?


I am contributing to building her art and the course of modern composed art music. It is wrong to be doing anything negative.


----------



## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> I am contributing to building her art and the course of modern composed art music. It is wrong to be doing anything negative.


Wow. You must be pretty important if you are shaping the course of modern music


----------



## PlaySalieri

Alma might actually benefit from reading these comments - from serious classical music listeners. Might be useful to her.


----------



## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> Wow. You must be pretty important if you are shaping the course of modern music


I am contributing, not shaping. *There is a difference.* Alma D. is shaping, that's the key.


----------



## PlaySalieri

I have actually had a quick listen to some pieces - including Cinderella. I cant say I was attracted to any of the pieces. I certainly would not waste my time on the opera even if I was paid to attend.

But I am impressed with Alma as a violinist. At 11 she plays almost in tune -and with some style - quite rare for that age. I hope she does not allow time spent on composition to compromise her practice time as she may become a notable performer.


----------



## Retyc

Alexander Scriabin's son Julian wrote these preludes when he was 10/11...


----------



## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> I am contributing, not shaping. *There is a difference.* Alma D. is shaping, that's the key.


I don't think Alma is shaping anything; she's just writing old music. When and if she stops, maybe she will have some kind of role in shaping 21st century music, but it's all speculation.


----------



## Kivimees

ArtMusic said:


> I am contributing, not shaping. *There is a difference.* Alma D. is shaping, that's the key.


I'm not sure I would consider waving pom-poms much of a 'contribution'.


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## ArtMusic

Bulldog said:


> I don't think Alma is shaping anything; she's just writing old music.  When and if she stops, maybe she will have some kind of role in shaping 21st century music, but it's all speculation.


She is writing newly composed music here and now, shaping the way newly composed ought to be by way of examples that audiences recognize, find relevant. I doubt her success would measure as much if she wrote in say, an extreme modernist style.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ArtMusic said:


> She is writing newly composed music here and now, shaping the way newly composed ought to be by way of examples that *audiences recognize, find relevant.* I doubt her success would measure as much if she wrote in say, an extreme modernist style.


I am not sure if this is true. Is she drawing paying audiences with her own program - or are her pieces being included on existing programs of standard repertoire? As she is young there is no relevant critcism - who is going to critique a child? Mehta has said how amazing she is - what do you expect him to say? We will have to wait until she reaches maturity and is old enough for the muscial world to appraise her.
I know what I think - impressive for a young person but not worth paying money to hear. 
If she was composing along contemporary lines she would at least be pitting her skills against her peers - as that is what young composers are doing - instead she has cocooned herself in a world of her own which keeps her safe from comparison - but denies her the opportunity to develop in the context of the world she lives in.


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## violadude

ArtMusic said:


> She is writing newly composed music here and now, *shaping the way newly composed ought to be* by way of examples that audiences recognize, find relevant. I doubt her success would measure as much if she wrote in say, an extreme modernist style.


Says who?.........................


----------



## David OByrne

Retyc said:


> Alexander Scriabin's son Julian wrote these preludes when he was 10/11...


Now THAT is talent regardless of age


----------



## ArtMusic

violadude said:


> Says who?.........................


My opinion and the large audiences who support Ms Deutscher's fine music.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT

I have to say that I find this utterly delightful, and nicely performed. Miss Deutscher has a nice voice, too:






So what if her (current) style is a bit retro? It works well enough on its own terms.


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## PlaySalieri

Her greatest asset in fact is her enthusiasm and genuine love for music - performing and composing. having been involved in the world of classical music at young person level - have met and seen hundreds of young musicians - I know that many are involved because their parents have paid for lessons etc - and many, even the better ones - look less than happy. I know one boy who literaly told me "I have no choice" - a 13 year old from europe who plays piano 5 hours a day and whose mum is hoping he will make it on the big stage.
So if Alma's enthusiasm is genuine (one can never tell what goes on behind closed doors) - and it looks like it is - I'm already a big fan.


----------



## KenOC

Here's a BBC story on the Vienna premiere of Alma's _Cinderella_. The opera lasts 2 1/2 hours, and the score is 237 pages!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38467218


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## Sloe

I can say that outside America, United Kingdom and Israel is Alma Deutscher completely unheard of.
For me she is just a little girls who makes music who two users on an internet forum think is fantastic.


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## sadams

Sloe said:


> I can say that outside America, United Kingdom and Israel is Alma Deutscher completely unheard of.
> For me she is just a little girls who makes music who two users on an internet forum think is fantastic.


Alma's CINDERELLA was premiered in Vienna, *AUSTRIA*. A year ago last October she did a concert in *JAPAN*, a concert that was devoted entirely to Alma's music. She has also performed in *GERMANY* and *SWITZERLAND* (Alma's music teacher Tobius Cramm is Swiss). *SO ALMA IS NOT COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF OUTSIDE OF AMERICA, UK OR ISRAEL. *


----------



## Sloe

sadams said:


> Alma's CINDERELLA was premiered in Vienna, *AUSTRIA*. A year ago last October she did a concert in *JAPAN*, a concert that was devoted entirely to Alma's music. She has also performed in *GERMANY* and *SWITZERLAND* (Alma's music teacher Tobius Cramm is Swiss). *SO ALMA IS NOT COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF OUTSIDE OF AMERICA, UK OR ISRAEL. *


Does she appear in German, Austrian and Swiss TV like she have appeared in Ellen?
Still that is just 3 more countries with one per cent of the worlds population.

The only thing I say is that she is really not that much of a celebrity.

Ok she have been on Austrian TV.


----------



## PlaySalieri

sadams said:


> Alma's CINDERELLA was premiered in Vienna, *AUSTRIA*. A year ago last October she did a concert in *JAPAN*, a concert that was devoted entirely to Alma's music. She has also performed in *GERMANY* and *SWITZERLAND* (Alma's music teacher Tobius Cramm is Swiss). *SO ALMA IS NOT COMPLETELY UNHEARD OF OUTSIDE OF AMERICA, UK OR ISRAEL. *


Dont get carried away - anyone can rent a concert venue and put on a recital anywhere. If Alma's parents have the money, they will find audiences for her. It is a big difference when a musician gets a call from a promoter or conductor inviting, for money - to perform.
I think the Cinderella project is probably a big gamble for them - I hope it pays off financially - musicians are very expensive people to hire - and the costs of promotion etc. Of course she has weekly lessons from Menuhin school teachers who charge £100+ an hour. So they must have money. Whatever they make from Cinderella - I can guarantee it will not cover the cost of staying a hotel in Vienna, travel etc - let alone break even on the direct costs of the performance. Bear in mind the royal opera house need subsidies to survive - and they charge £300 for their best seats! Alma is selling hers for 29euro.

2 1/2 hours long for Cinderella?

I would have thought that is too long and I have listened to some of this piece on you tube. Lucio Silla is about 2 1/2 hours and I struggle to sit through that though it has some fine music by one of the world's greatest composers (albeit when he was 16)


----------



## sadams

stomanek said:


> Dont get carried away - anyone can rent a concert venue and put on a recital anywhere. If Alma's parents have the money, they will find audiences for her. It is a big difference when a musician gets a call from a promoter or conductor inviting, for money - to perform.
> I think the Cinderella project is probably a big gamble for them - I hope it pays off financially - musicians are very expensive people to hire - and the costs of promotion etc. Of course she has weekly lessons from Menuhin school teachers who charge £100+ an hour. So they must have money. Whatever they make from Cinderella - I can guarantee it will not cover the cost of staying a hotel in Vienna, travel etc - let alone break even on the direct costs of the performance. Bear in mind the royal opera house need subsidies to survive - and they charge £300 for their best seats! Alma is selling hers for 29euro.
> 
> 2 1/2 hours long for Cinderella?
> 
> I would have thought that is too long and I have listened to some of this piece on you tube. Lucio Silla is about 2 1/2 hours and I struggle to sit through that though it has some fine music by one of the world's greatest composers (albeit when he was 16)


29 Euros for a ticket to CINDERELLA more like 69 Euros the 29 Euro price was for 2nd tier student tickets (BTW all performances of CINDERELLA are now SOLD OUT) Also the concert in JAPAN was with an orchestra (the Tokyo Synfonia) and was not a solo or chamber concert. Also with regards to CINDERELLA there were people who sponsored the performances (including Zubin Mehta, principle patron), so the money to produce her opera didn't just come from box office receipts.


----------



## KenOC

stomanek said:


> Dont get carried away - anyone can rent a concert venue and put on a recital anywhere. If Alma's parents have the money, they will find audiences for her. It is a big difference when a musician gets a call from a promoter or conductor inviting, for money - to perform.


Zubin Mehta is the "patron" for the Vienna performances. The first two performance were sold out, and there will be two more in early January. I doubt anybody will lose too much money on this one.

BTW I can't understand why Alma's evident success should distress anybody. But she does seem to cause anguish in some quarters!


----------



## Chronochromie

I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, but I'm amused at her particularly zealous defender in this thread.

Not really surprised to see your peculiar spin on this.


----------



## Blancrocher

I'm sure she can play a little piano and maybe compose a few symphonies, operas, blah blah blah. But what if she tried to post on an online classical music forum day in and day out? My guess is she'd crack under the pressure.


----------



## tdc

The performance in post #332 is frankly, adorable. It also displays some serious musical talent (for anyone, not just a youngster).

Perhaps nothing very cutting edge from a compositional standpoint but still, I'm impressed.


----------



## Razumovskymas

Blancrocher said:


> I'm sure she can play a little piano and maybe compose a few symphonies, operas, blah blah blah. But what if she tried to post on an online classical music forum day in and day out? My guess is she'd crack under the pressure.


yes, being exposed to the REAL world of classical music! ;-)

She won't stand a chance.


----------



## ArtMusic

_Cinderella_ must have been a success! I can't wait to watch. Congratulations Alma Deutscher! Finely newly composed music today that is reaching out to millions!


----------



## Daniel Atkinson

The way Alma is being treated and idolized makes me feel sick. It's on the same level as child beauty pageants. It's absolutely disgusting and should be shamed. Let this little girl be a kid for goodness sake


----------



## PlaySalieri

sadams said:


> 29 Euros for a ticket to CINDERELLA more like 69 Euros the 29 Euro price was for 2nd tier student tickets (BTW all performances of CINDERELLA are now SOLD OUT) Also the concert in JAPAN was with an orchestra (the Tokyo Synfonia) and was not a solo or chamber concert. Also with regards to CINDERELLA there were people who sponsored the performances (including Zubin Mehta, principle patron), so the money to produce her opera didn't just come from box office receipts.


That's impressive if they can make money when no other opera company in the UK can break even without lottery money etc.
Mehta did not sponsor - he allowed his name to go forward as patron - and with the backing of his name has come some success in selling tickets - it's a shrewd business move but he has nothing else to do with the performance.

Would be interesting to seem some critical reviews in The Guardian for example - a true evaluation. That in itself would be a sign that Alma is being taken seriously.


----------



## PlaySalieri

First "critical review"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opera/what-to-see/does-opera-11-year-old-sound-like/


----------



## KenOC

stomanek said:


> Mehta did not sponsor - he allowed his name to go forward as patron.


Where is this information from? "Patron" traditionally means a bit more than this.


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## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Where is this information from? "Patron" traditionally means a bit more than this.


from the cinderella website:

"We are proud and delighted that Maestro Zubin Mehta has agreed to be patron of "Cinderella"in Vienna"


----------



## PlaySalieri

From the Telegraph review in case you dont have the time to read:

*"That a young girl could have the mental energy to compose a two-hour opera and take credit for its full orchestration is staggering; that the end result is a lively, coherent piece of comic opera is exceptional."
*

Not a proper appraisal but we can read much into these comments.


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## ArtMusic

How often now do we see *new energy with success* in composing and producing a full scale opera today? We are privileged today to see this right now.


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## DavidA

I am always amused at the reactions things like this get. There is the adulation and the cynicism. The adulators need to wait to see how things go with the young lady. And often cynics are people who have no talent themselves and can only find comfort in criticising those who have!


----------



## PlaySalieri

DavidA said:


> I am always amused at the reactions things like this get. There is the adulation and the cynicism. The adulators need to wait to see how things go with the young lady. And often cynics are people who have no talent themselves and can only find comfort in criticising those who have!


I think the only sensible view is a mix of the two. Praise but caution. Very few prodigies in history have amounted to anything and I think we need to monitor Alma's progress with a friendly eye. Few people would be more pleased than me if Alma really finds her own voice and establishes herself with top quality compositions. She is very far from that at the moment.

Out of interest I went to look at a vocal piece composed by Mozart when he was 11 and I found this






Die Schuldigkeit des ersten Gebots

k35 - part 1 of a 3 part opera - Michael haydn composed part 2 and another composer did part 3 (both lost). Only Mozart's part 1 survives. Interestingly the late Neville Marriner cited it as 1 of his 2 favourite Mozart works (the other being the requiem).

This would surely be the equivalent of Alma being invited to jointly compose and opera with an established name in opera - as Michael Haydn was 30 when he joined Mozart in this project. Listening to it - it's good! And in the above recording Ann Murray produces some touchingly beautiful coloratura. Not a mature piece of course but probably rivalling the quality being produced by Salieri and others of those times.


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## ArtMusic

Regardless, her new music is making contemporary composed art music appealing to far more audiences than otherwise. I look forward to her new compositions each year, that's the exciting part.


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## Daniel Atkinson

ArtMusic said:


> How often now do we see *new energy with success* in composing and producing a full scale opera today? We are privileged today to see this right now.


You can't be serious :lol:


----------



## Daniel Atkinson

DavidA said:


> I am always amused at the reactions things like this get. There is the adulation and the cynicism. The adulators need to wait to see how things go with the young lady. And often cynics are people who have no talent themselves and can only find comfort in criticising those who have!


not true at all. This is a case of the emperors new clothes and exploitation of a child called Alma


----------



## Sloe

violadude said:


> A lot of people on this forum might not enjoy avant-garde stuff, or "atonal" music whatever that means to them. But they might like Reich or Glass, or Arvo Part, or Michael Daughtry or late Penderecki or Schnittke. Those trends are relevant to them.


Good point.
What bothers me most is how some write that it is like Alma Deutscher is the only one that writes music people want to listen to and other composers just make music for each other. When there are loads of composers that makes music that is really accessible for most people.


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## KenOC

Daniel Atkinson said:


> not true at all. This is a case of the emperors new clothes and exploitation of a child called Alma


Exploited? That's shocking news. Please share with us who's exploiting her, their motive, and the evidences that cause you to believe that. Thanks!


----------



## Daniel Atkinson

KenOC said:


> Exploited? That's shocking news. Please share with us who's exploiting her, their motive, and the evidences that cause you to believe that. Thanks!


Yes, your sarcasm is a blessing to this sick and disturbing case but I assume you'd be very appalled if the tables where turned a little


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## KenOC

Sarcasm? You made no attempt to answer my questions. Repeat: Who’s exploiting Alma, what's their motive, and what are the evidences that cause you to believe that?


----------



## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Sarcasm? You made no attempt to answer my questions. Repeat: Who's exploiting Alma, what's their motive, and what are the evidences that cause you to believe that?


Charlotte Church was in a similar position in the 90s - a lot of people were saying she's being exploited etc - but she handled the publicity superby well - landed a big money deal with sony and is probably happy now as an adult with what happened to her as a child.
If Alma has her heart set on a musical career - the publicity her parents have encouraged and taken full advantage of wont do her any harm. She is now far more famous than most fully accomplished composers and her music will indeed find a market. If her parents have any sense they will release some more of her music on CD and strike while there is interest. I certainly wouldnt blame them for wanting to recoup some of the enormous expense they have endured getting Alma to where she is now.

That being said - there are some things about Cinderella which I think are questionable. The Telegraph journalist claims that all the promo material on Cinderella shows no sign it was composed by a young child. So who are these people that bought tickets and what did they think they were going to see? Or is it just that seasonal phenomena that Cinderella opera in Vienna will sell out if the name Zubin Mehta is next to it? Wouldnt some ticket holders feel deceived? Some might think it is the opera by Rossini. So they should really have foregrounded Alma in the marketing campaign so people know what they are paying their money for. That's my only objection.


----------



## sadams

stomanek said:


> ... there are some things about Cinderella which I think are questionable. The Telegraph journalist claims that all the promo material on Cinderella shows no sign it was composed by a young child. So who are these people that bought tickets and what did they think they were going to see? Or is it just that seasonal phenomena that Cinderella opera in Vienna will sell out if the name Zubin Mehta is next to it? Wouldnt some ticket holders feel deceived? Some might think it is the opera by Rossini. So they should really have foregrounded Alma in the marketing campaign so people know what they are paying their money for. That's my only objection.


There is one thing that should be clarified and that is that Alma's name is on the posters, what is not on the posters is any indication that the composer is in fact a child, in other words there were no headlines along the lines of: *"WRITTEN BY THE FAMOUS CHILD PRODIGY ALMA DEUTSCHER"* or something similar. So one would have to be familiar with Alma to know that Cinderella was written by a child if all you saw was the posters.


----------



## PlaySalieri

sadams said:


> There is one thing that should be clarified and that is that Alma's name is on the posters, what is not on the posters is any indication that the composer is in fact a child, in other words there were no headlines along the lines of: *"WRITTEN BY THE FAMOUS CHILD PRODIGY ALMA DEUTSCHER"* or something similar. *So one would have to be familiar with Alma to know that Cinderella was written by a child if all you saw was the posters.*


And that is exactly what I am saying - buyers do not know that Alma started this opera when she was 7 and completed it by the age of 11. I think buyers would assume, if they dont know who Alma is, that she is an accomplished adult composer. I think the promoters should put her age in brackets after her name.

Of course Alma got a standing ovation - it would take the meanest cynic to sit stobbornly with tightened lips while hundreds of people stand and cheer what is a monumental achievement by a young person.


----------



## Sloe

stomanek said:


> And that is exactly what I am saying - buyers do not know that Alma started this opera when she was 7 and completed it by the age of 11. I think buyers would assume, if they dont know who Alma is, that she is an accomplished adult composer. I think the promoters should put her age in brackets after her name.
> 
> Of course Alma got a standing ovation - it would take the meanest cynic to sit stobbornly with tightened lips while hundreds of people stand and cheer what is a monumental achievement by a young person.


I doubt most people are that ignorant so they don't read about the composer or opera before they buy tickets for 69 euro.


----------



## Elmbeard

I have registered to put my ha'pworth. One thing that intrigued me about Alma is that she lives in the same town I grew up in, so I feel a certain affinity there. There seems a lot of snootiness on this board, as if she should be expected at any age to conform to a set standard of composition. Where I live now, the local composer is Elgar, whose first symphony broke every rule in the book and whose quadrilles he wrote in his twenties as bandmaster in a lunatic asylum compare well with what is coming out of Alma now. Yet whose work was Nimrod, or the Cello Concerto, or a chestful of wonderful part songs? When I revisit the work of Elgar, it is like revisiting a very old and dear friend, and Alma's music is the same, and is improving all the time.

Others can compare her to Mozart. For me, a better comparison is Clara Schumann. A very talented concert pianist as a child and a competent composer, who married the family lodger (a sensitive composer suffering all his life from depression) in the teeth of opposition from her father. Her greatest contribution came later in life when she turned on its head the old classical convention that music was there for the virtuoso to show off, and rather she insisted that music itself was the master, and that the composer's intention and feelings were paramount. Over a century later in the 1960s, I was introduced myself to that school of thinking and have held with it ever since.

There is a great deal of imagination and sensitivity in Alma's music, both as a performer and as a composer. There is also a sense of fun, which cannot be got from an algorithm or conventional musicology. I myself have experienced the loss I felt when I heard a beautiful Swedish violinist play at a festival in Shropshire, and I had already lost the sound of her music on my way home and was desperate to find it again. It is like losing the sound of the voice of a deceased loved one. A piece of music I could hum in its entirety at the age of five was dismissed as doggerel by those that know better, and all traces of it have been erased, yet I yearn to hear it again - the Associated-Rediffusion March by Simon Bates - the start-up theme to a TV station that was superceded in 1964.

I have had the chance to know well the 2nd and 3rd movements of that violin concerto, and bits of the 1st. The impression I get is that I am sure I have heard it all before - it seems all so familiar - yet I doubt anyone can find out precisely where it was plagiarised from. Alma, when composing Cinderella, claims that she formed an imaginary company of four master composers, and she takes her writing styles from them, and probably also their music. Regardless of the theoretical propriety of it, it is earworm music and sticks in the head like a TV commercial jingle or something by Eric Coates. The first movement doesn't quite fit the other two - being more Bach-like in its regularity and might be better standing alone as a separate piece. I think she may well rewrite the first movement to fit in better with the other two, which might explain why there is no complete performance of it on YouTube. I loved the sentimentality and the dreaminess of the second movement especially, and regardless that the main theme repeats itself perhaps a little too often, the third movement is such a happy piece, leaving me smiling and happy myself at the end of it. All said and done, the only purpose for romantic music of any style is to convey feelings.

So what happens next? Alma is about to enter puberty. What will she make of the much wider and deeper range of feelings and emotions that adolescence and adulthood will bring her? Will there be prodigy burnout? Will she go in a totally different direction like Charlotte Church (but I must say that Alma is already a better operatic soprano at 11 than Church was when she became famous with that bog-standard piece from the Fauré Requiem).

For me though, this is an experiment in that someone born in the 21st century can produce music with no reference whatsoever to mid 20th century atonality or primary school banality and yet appeal to audiences raised in the computer age. I wish her well.


----------



## Elmbeard

@stomanek above: I think it was intentional not to labour Alma's age, preferring instead to gamble that Cinderella will stand or fall on its own merits. Whether this was commercially wise, I do think this was more respectful of Alma's own welfare, well aware that today's child prodigy is tomorrow's struggling session musician.

There is nothing wrong with a successful composer making a virtue of skillful marketing. Both Händel and Dvorzak was notorious for it, as John Rutter is today. Being heard and attracting decent audiences is two-thirds of the battle. Since Alma will very shortly leave childhood behind, better not to make a unique selling proposition that it is the work of a child, but rather make a selling point something which she can take through with her into adulthood.

If I had heard about the opera before tickets sold out, I might well have gone. Not because it was composed by an 11-year-old, but because there are several parts of the opera's narrative that resound with me personally (I gave one example in my last post). Philosophically, with all the confusion by today's gender politics and in my own loneliness, I find it very reassuring that in Alma's own words "they find one another in the end, as lyrics find melody".

I care not a jot about reputation - for me music is the beginning and the end, and as a performer I can only hope I do not get in the way.


----------



## tdc

Elmbeard said:


> For me, a better comparison is Clara Schumann... *Her greatest contribution came later in life when she turned on its head the old classical convention that music was there for the virtuoso to show off,* and rather she insisted that music itself was the master, and that the composer's intention and feelings were paramount. Over a century later in the 1960s, I was introduced myself to that school of thinking and have held with it ever since.


I don't think it was ever a classical convention that music was there for the virtuoso to show off.


----------



## Elmbeard

*Cadenzas?*



tdc said:


> I don't think it was ever a classical convention that music was there for the virtuoso to show off.


The whole point about a Baroque cadenza is to show off. I find it quite fun hearing what each tenor makes of the cadenza in 'Every Valley' in Handel's Messiah - does he sneak in an extra twiddle on a top note? It's like power diving - extra marks for style and difficulty!


----------



## tdc

Elmbeard said:


> The whole point about a Baroque cadenza is to show off. I find it quite fun hearing what each tenor makes of the cadenza in 'Every Valley' in Handel's Messiah - does he sneak in an extra twiddle on a top note? It's like power diving - extra marks for style and difficulty!


Sure but this is just one aspect of the music that occurs in certain types of pieces, it is not what the 'music was there for' in an over arching sense then or now. None of the great composers (that I know of) have ever stated the underlying point of their music was so that the performer could show off. Further many composers continued to write virtuosic music and play cadenzas in the Romantic era and beyond so this aspect of music was not changed after C Schumann. There were also plenty of composers whose music was not about showcasing virtuosity centuries before C. Schumann.

Much of the earliest music was written for the church. Writing a lot of virtuosic passages for performers was not a primary function of the compositions.


----------



## PlaySalieri

Elmbeard - thanks for your contribution.
I think this is difficult territory for the board - Alma is still young and the only fair thing that can be said is she has done amazingly well - very impressive feats etc. She certanly does have amazing talent. 
She has had good fortune of course - that many other young composers with equal or superior talent have not - mass exposure virtue of Stephen Fry's twiiter comments. But there is nothing wrong with good fortune and clever management.

What else can be said? The board wishes her the best and will follow her career with healthy curiosity.


----------



## sadams

Another review of Deutscher's _Cinderella.

_*Alma Deutscher's Cinderella reaches the stage in Vienna*

https://bachtrack.com/review-alma-deutscher-cinderella-casino-baumgarten-vienna-january-2017


----------



## PlaySalieri

sadams said:


> Another review of Deutscher's _Cinderella.
> 
> _*Alma Deutscher's Cinderella reaches the stage in Vienna*
> 
> https://bachtrack.com/review-alma-deutscher-cinderella-casino-baumgarten-vienna-january-2017


Interesting - there is high praise for the performers.


----------



## Pugg

sadams said:


> Another review of Deutscher's _Cinderella.
> 
> _*Alma Deutscher's Cinderella reaches the stage in Vienna*
> 
> https://bachtrack.com/review-alma-deutscher-cinderella-casino-baumgarten-vienna-january-2017


Thank you for sharing.


----------



## sadams

An aria from Deutscher's Opera: *Cinderella*


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## Pugg

sadams said:


> From Deutscher's Opera Cinderella


Thanks for sharing sadams .


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## sadams




----------



## violadude

sadams said:


>


Oh, she's philosopher now, huh? How pweicious.


----------



## Retyc

sadams said:


>


Why is she staring at me like a serial killer? How does she know that I don't like her music?


----------



## Bulldog

violadude said:


> Oh, she's philosopher now, huh? How pweicious.


For a very young person, she sure is full of herself. Maybe with a growth in maturity, she will develop some humility.


----------



## Janspe

Oh man, that was an uncomfortable watch. I don't really know anything about her and have stayed away from most conversations concerning her music, but there's something inherently silly about her views on beautiful/ugly music and the point of art in general. I'm pretty sure André Rieu could be interested in her work, though!

I wish her all the best, and it's pretty cool that she can play multiple instruments and express herself through music. But that video doesn't really convince me to take her music seriously.


----------



## Five and Dime

Bulldog said:


> For a very young person, she sure is full of herself. Maybe with a growth in maturity, she will develop some humility.


Maybe she seemed confident in herself because she has no idea yet how relentlessly strangers will judge her from afar. For example a few people on this thread seem to have it out for her.

Actually I thought she seemed a little uncertain how to present herself. She did fine, but I don't think she knows yet how to come across as "genuine" when engaging in a public speaking performance.


----------



## Sloe

Bulldog said:


> For a very young person, she sure is full of herself. Maybe with a growth in maturity, she will develop some humility.


I think it was nice what she said. Yes music should be beautiful because it makes an already ugly world more beautiful. Much of the most beautiful music was written at times of bloody wars. With that I don't mean it have to sound like the music Alma Deutscher makes.


----------



## Torkelburger

She is begging the question. Just because something is modern does not mean it is ugly.


----------



## Sloe

Torkelburger said:


> She is begging the question. Just because something is modern does not mean it is ugly.


At least she did not say that.


----------



## Torkelburger

0:53 "In the past, it was possible to compose beautiful melodies and beautiful music, but today, they say *I'm not allowed to compose like this anymore*." So, um, yeah, that is saying modern ("today") music is not allowed to be beautiful (i.e. it's "ugly"). It's a total strawman ("they say") and begging the question.

1:24 (speaking of writing modern music and why she doesn't write it): "If the world is so ugly, then what is the point of making it even uglier with ugly music?" Begging the question. You can write modern music that is "beautiful". Just because it is modern/complex does not mean it is "ugly".


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## isorhythm

This seems like a narrative she's getting from adults around her, no? Everything written about her in the press is positive. I'm sure critics aren't calling her personally to tell her she's "not allowed to compose like this anymore."

Unless, of course, she reads TalkClassical....


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## ArtMusic

sadams said:


> An aria from Deutscher's Opera: *Cinderella*


What a masterpiece!


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## Sloe

Janspe said:


> but there's something inherently silly about her views on beautiful/ugly music and the point of art in general.


She is an eleven year old girl. You can't expect her to say something profound.


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## Janspe

Sloe said:


> She is an eleven year old girl. You can't expect her to say something profound.


And yet it's ok to parade her around as the next big musical genius?


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## Sloe

Janspe said:


> And yet it's ok to parade her around as the next big musical genius?


I don´t.
Ask those who do.


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## PlaySalieri

Lighten up - I would rather spend time listening to her talk and play than any of you lot.

she's devoted to music - believes in herself and has bags of talent.

in time she may well knock the critics off their feet


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## sadams

A brief excerpt of Alma's Piano Concerto in E-flat Major. Performed by Alma with the Vienna Chamber Orchestra.


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## ArtMusic

A wonderful new piece of music composed today! Keep up the fine composition Ms Deustcher! The world supports you!


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## Larkenfield

Big fan here! She's following her muse, staying true to it, and greatly enjoying herself, not to mention holding the interest of her many fans around the world. I hear more of a Chopin Romanticism in her Concerto and perhaps a little less Classicism. She's slowly developing. She's chosen her path deliberately, consciously, because of her love of beauty, has openly said so, and is fully aware that her critics think she's old-fashioned or irrelevant. But I have never felt she was deliberately trying to imitate Mozart or anyone else. She gets an idea and works diligently to develop it, and IMO she continues to deepen her talent as an outstanding pianist and violinist for her young age. She also sings well, which I doubt that many have heard, and may end up composing something memorable in opera before she's ultimately through creating , perhaps a special interest of hers, because of her interest in combining music with imaginative stories.

:cheers:


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## Pugg

The one thing I do admires, that she keeps going, despite all the hatred and vitriol she 's getting.


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## Bulldog

ArtMusic said:


> A wonderful new piece of music composed today! Keep up the fine composition Ms Deustcher! The world supports you!


Could you be more specific as to how the world supports her?


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## Portamento

People keep using the words "composed today" as an incentive to like Deutscher's music more. I wonder if the same excitement would be used to describe a new serial piece. Not in this forum.


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## ST4

Pugg said:


> The one thing I do admires, that she keeps going, despite all the hatred and vitriol she 's getting.


Nobody hates this little 10 year old girl, they hate her parents for exploiting her and the media making her out to be more important than she is.


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## Bulldog

ST4 said:


> Nobody hates this little 10 year old girl, they hate her parents for exploiting her and the media making her out to be more important than she is.


I don't dislike the girl, her parents or the media. What is irking and a little perverse is the music of 1800 being paraded as new music.


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## sadams

Bulldog said:


> I don't dislike the girl, her parents or the media. What is irking and a little perverse is the music of 1800 being paraded as new music.


I think the term "new music" in this case means music that is being written currently regardless of the music styles time period. in other words whether Alma was writing music of 1800 or 1850 or 1920 or 1940 or 1970 or 2016 its all new music because it being written currently


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## scratchgolf

sadams said:


> I think the term "new music" in this case means music that is being written currently regardless of the music styles time period. in other words whether Alma was writing music of 1800 or 1850 or 1920 or 1940 or 1970 or 2016 its all new music because it being written currently


You are correct. I don't need to read any posts before yours to know you are correct. What does being envious of a little girl with amazing talent say about a grown man? My hat is off to the girl and I hope she marries a man who knows the value of women. Not one who fears their accomplishments. Debate me. Please. You lose when you try.


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## Larkenfield

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Alma's parents have been "exploiting" her. What they've been doing is supporting her indomitable will to compose every step along the way, and this includes the writing of her opera _Cinderella_.

Alma has a website that anyone can visit and see for themselves, and she's obviously a very happy 12 year old -- bright and intelligent, thoughtful, creatively interested, productive, and verbally articulate.

I have no idea where certain individuals are getting the false impression that she's being exploited, or perhaps that's simply being assumed. If she were being exploited to the negative, I imagine it would be obvious by her appearance and demeanor, and I've never seen her anything other than healthy of body and mind.

For her age, she's also exceptionally gifted on violin and piano, and IMO her Bach performances on both instruments in Israel have been exceptionally enjoyable.

She continues to compose and may someday shock the world with something exceptionally good. But there may be a long wait and I feel that's perfectly fine, because she's enjoying herself and bringing joy to those looking to hear beauty in music, whether her critics feel that's relevant to now or not. 
:angel:


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## Timothy

Larkenfield said:


> I've seen no evidence whatsoever that Alma's parents have been "exploiting" her. What they've been doing is supporting her indomitable will to compose every step along the way, and this includes the writing of her opera _Cinderella_.
> 
> Alma has a website that anyone can visit and see for themselves, and she's obviously a very happy 12 year old -- bright and intelligent, thoughtful, creatively interested and productive, verbally articulate.
> 
> I have no idea where certain individuals are getting the false impression that she's being exploited, or perhaps that's simply being assumed. If she were being exploited to the negative, it imagine it would be obvious by her appearance and demeanor, and I've never seen her anything other than healthy of body and mind.
> 
> For her age, she's also exceptionally gifted on violin and piano, and IMO her Bach performances on both instruments in Israel have been exceptionally enjoyable.
> 
> She continues to compose and may someday shock the world with something exceptionally good. But there may be a long wait and I feel that's perfectly fine, because she's enjoying herself and bringing joy to those looking to hear* beauty in music*, whether her critics feel that's relevant to now or not.
> :angel:


I do not wish to hear beauty in music, it is a destructive evil that disguises itself in a pony's clothing. Please be cautious of these ideas, they are what is killing music.


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## Guest

If there was no beauty in music why bother to listen?


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## Sloe

Timothy said:


> I do not wish to hear beauty in music, it is a destructive evil that disguises itself in a pony's clothing. Please be cautious of these ideas, they are what is killing music.


I wish to hear beauty in music.


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## Guest

Sloe said:


> I wish to hear beauty in music.


Off course you do, or at least some joy and meaning.Meaning may also give some kind of deep satisfaction.There is so much to say about these things but I prefer to listen to music instead of speaking about it.


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## mmsbls

Timothy said:


> I do not wish to hear beauty in music, it is a destructive evil that disguises itself in a pony's clothing. Please be cautious of these ideas, they are what is killing music.


Maybe your definition of beauty differs from others. Do you believe, for example, that Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20, Beethoven's Symphony No. 7, Schubert's String Quintet, and Mahler's Symphony No. 5 are not beautiful?

Do you perhaps mean that those _only_ looking for beauty are somehow doing music a disservice?


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## scratchgolf

I'll counter with this. It is arrogant of me to think I could ever take part in stopping the music. Music IS creation, and Tolkien knew what I know. So did NIMROD. Music IS the universal language. Every kind of person from every walk of life, speaking every "Babbling" language, can come together and watch an opera and speak the SAME language, if only for a short amount of time. Does it make me happy that there is a man on this site who dislikes me very very much, and if I offered him the one thing he TRULY wants above all other things, and I was giving it to him for free.......he would say no on principal. This honestly makes me cry.


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## Larkenfield

Never to hear _beauty_ in music? Just so-called _reality_ or _dissonance_?... With all the ugliness in the world, there's no longer room for beauty?

There are plenty of other composers who have filled the void of the discordant and dissonant, such as Ferneyhough, Xenakis, Birtwistle and others. There's hardly a dearth of it... In a world filled with talk of war, there's no longer any room for those who take a stand for peace?

For some listeners, their exposure to beauty is a way of replenishing and renewing themeselves to experience relief from the everyday grind of the world; rather than being further exposed to its dissonances and disharmony without transcending it, though some may find that stimulating.


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## sadams

Alma improvising on four random notes.


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## sadams




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## Elmbeard

I was there at this performance of Alma's piano concerto, opening the Carinthia Summer Festival in Villach, Southern Austria.

Reading through the comments on this thread, many of them very uncharitable and deeply wounding to anyone of an artistic temperament, I wonder what is the point of classical music? Is it to parade our intellectual superiority, or is it simply to enjoy the sentiments that it conveys?

Alma knows her audience, and at the moment can fill halls with her own music on her own terms and in her own time. What more can we ask of any musician of any age? 

Since I was there at this performance, I can say that the Carinthia Festival is not dedicated purely to classical music, but encompasses jazz, crossover, visual arts and many other different genres. At this concert, it opened with the 2015 work 'Dance of the Solent Mermaids' pretty well as seen on You Tube. No surprises there. The first movement of the violin concerto was a revelation about how much Alma has developed as a composer, especially when comparing it with the viola sonata it is based on, which she wrote when she was eight. The experimentations folk here were crying out for a couple of years ago are now on their way, but all within the framework of Alma's own "beautiful" style, reflecting her own undeniable conservatism.

What happened after the interval was quite remarkable though. Since Alma has not composed quite enough to fill a programme, the orchestra came on to perform an early Mozart symphony. Sensing the mood of the audience after the violin concerto, the conductor apologised for the lesser music, and promised that after this interlude, Alma would be back with more of her own work. This was Mozart, and on his home turf!

So we come to the climax of the whole concert, that came right at the end of this movement above. After all other Alma's performances, there was rapturous applause and standing ovations, but not this time. For fifteen seconds, there was complete silence, even from a fidgety Austrian audience not normally used to keeping quiet during performances. Nobody wanted to break the silence, let alone do anything as crass as applaud, and we all sat there meditating. In the end, Alma herself had to do something about it, by breaking into the third movement; otherwise, we'd have been there mesmerised all night.

Now, I don't know if this effect is "good music" or "proper music", and I don't really care. This is what the audience came for, and Alma delivered both as a composer and as a performer.

The final movement, based on a set of variations she composed many years ago, brought us back to the simplicity of a child's improvisation, and was in a way a lesser work, but fascinating when studying the musical development of a composer through childhood, and it conveyed a sense of joy to round off the concert (apart from the party piece as an encore). My main gripe was that it was a let down after the emotion at the end of the slow movement, and really needs a short linking section to lead us into the final movement.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

I saw something about her on TV. What really amazes me is what a great voice she has, she could be an opera singer. I think Jay Greenberg's music had a really distinct voice (though he's not a child anymore)....I think his parents were both linguists too, just like Alma Deutcher...which is weird.


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## Elmbeard

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> What really amazes me is what a great voice she has, she could be an opera singer.
> 
> Alma has a good working high mezzo soprano voice, a pleasant tone and musically spot-on, but she cannot yet claim the range of expression a dedicated singer can bring. Give it time though. Nobody should engage in an opera career until the early to mid 20s, since the voice is simply not robust enough to carry that level of power for long periods several times a week. Alma being Alma, attempted the 'Queen of the Night' aria from the Magic Flute when she was three. What she lacked in power and range, she made up with drama!
> 
> No doubt, as soon as she hits 16, she will claim the role of Cinderella for herself, handing over the violin to her sister.


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## sadams

Cinderella - Opera in Four Acts - by Alma Deutscher - Presented by The Packard Humanities Institute and Opera San José - From The California Theatre in San José, CAThis is the American debut of Cinderella.


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## EchoEcho

Isn't it nice to have such emerging talents to consider?

Will she ever be judged by history to be one of the greats? Who knows, but probably not. Statistically speaking, membership into that club is very limited. Still we can appreciate what she has done and anticipate what she will do.


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## Larkenfield

EchoEcho said:


> Isn't it nice to have such emerging talents to consider?
> 
> Will she ever be judged by history to be one of the greats? Who knows, but probably not. Statistically speaking, membership into that club is very limited. Still, we can appreciate what she has done and anticipate what she will do.


I'm interested to hear whether her compositions take on a new maturity or direction now that she's soon to enter puberty. It seems like she's been 12 forever. Whatever she ends up becoming, I believe she will be pure and creatively uplifting whether or not she sounds that original. I believe she's good for music and good for the public who adores her brightness and intelligence of spirit... and I'm one of them.


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## KenOC

Larkenfield said:


> I'm interested to hear whether her compositions take on a new maturity or direction now that she's soon to enter puberty. It seems like she's been 12 forever. Whatever she ends up becoming, I believe she will be pure and creatively uplifting whether or not she sounds that original. I believe she's good for music and good for the public who adores her brightness and intelligence of spirit... and I'm one of them.


Mozart didn't write his first "masterpiece" until he was 17. Is our age even ready for a new one? I have doubts.


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## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> Mozart didn't write his first "masterpiece" until he was 17. Is our age even ready for a new one? I have doubts.


Perhaps that is true - but really - Mozart's operas composed before 17 are comparable with the best operas being composed in those times by Salieri, Gluck and others. They are in fact fully polished and accomplished compositions.
I am sure that Cinderella is very charming - but let us not get carried away.


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## Larkenfield

Mozart wrote his 4th Symphony (actually his 3rd) at the age of 9. It may not be a masterpiece to others, but it is to me. His grace, harmonic sense, bubbling spontaneity and sense of proportion are instantly recognizable and just as out of this world as they were on the day that he died, including the dazzling harmonic surprises that can be found here. The Andante is sweet and melodious with some dissonances that he seems to delight in. The third movement Presto bounces right along with total confidence, and the entire symphony is beautifully orchestrated from top to bottom.

Alma loves Mozart but has never compared herself to him-she wants to be seen as her own person-only the media has. She's doing fine in her own development, but nothing she's done so far has the perfection and sophistication that Mozart had at such a young age. Leopold Mozart must have been knocked for a loop by how elegantly and masterfully this little jewel of a small-scale symphony was created. I would have been flabbergasted. Imagine the responsibility of having and nurturing such a precocious genius.


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## Star

We can compare Alma's experience with the young Mozart in some ways. She is obviously an extremely talented young lady who is being taken around to show off her talent to peopke, just as Mozart was. It's just that with modern communications and media she is reaching a much wider audience. I just hope the constant attention doesn't spoil her for the future. The works which I've heard a promising but they are the works of a child, rather like Mozart's early works. But then the silly critics shouldn't start putting the boot in as we must remember that one of the the most gifted prodigies of all, Mendelssohn, didn't compose his first great work until he was 16. As has been said Mozart was 17 before his genius really started to come out in great music. So let's wait and see what the young lady produces in the future without silly over-hype or equally silly criticism.


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## Capeditiea

Alma Deutsher was the one i was thinking of... from another post... that i am unsure which post it was... 
her music is beautiful. :3 Given time i think she could help bring Classical Music to the mainstream again.


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## Capeditiea

KenOC said:


> Actually Mozart had computer game tendencies. He invented an aleatoric composing method using dice and cards, which is available on the Internet. His method produced minuet movements.


i have made a few compositions with my non-classical music with two die. *nods, only a couple survived through numourous deletions (both accidental and purposeful.


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## Capeditiea

Abraham Lincoln said:


> I want to write an opera where Alma Deutscher goes back in time, poisons Mozart, then frames a totally innocent Salieri.


No, seriously, i would love to experience this opera. Do it.


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## Capeditiea

ight so i got tired of reading the debate upon AD... so i shall put in my two cents. 


*bangs keys on an imaginary piano... 

first off. When you practice an instrument you use older works. So this is the focus for current classical musicians. 
Now, this is where most folk against her style may not realize this. Given her age, and such. Her theory is simple. Make something that is similar to what you are used to. Then slowly weave out of the norm... 


*then we enter into Cap's delusional mind

Which if my theory on her theory is correct. by her mid 20's her music will end up being the Celine Dion of Classical. Where her works would repetively be played. Thusly be exported into a musical film... probably starring some 2030's teenage heart throbs. After a while some rock band will do a cover of her songs. and her name temporarily forgotten by the mainstream. Thusly, around 2100 or so the current generation of Classical Entheusiests will inevitably be thinking of Alma how we see Mozart. 

(although there are a bunch of feigned prodigies as i have found out from read this.) 


*exit Cap's delusional mind. 

Now, with that context in focus, she has had wonderful publicity... (probably horrid, we may end up seeing her shave her head like Britney spears or something... in a few years due to the common strangeness of what happens to child stars of today.) so she will obviously be remembered. 

o page 25 was the last page i was reading... i may go back... lol 

but on the note of publicity this day and age, to become popular in any genre of music you have to be familiar. Sound very similar to how others are. Other wise you are concidered horrible to the mainstream. 

If it takes children who are skilled at a younger to popularize classical music, so be it. but a lot of the public's eye will soon forget a young violinist's name or a young pianist name, Where the name of a composer of an opera... :O o wow. we might as we go on and give her a grammy... 

So really. I love her music because i see the potential of her finding her voice.  which i predict will not happen till after a mental breakdown around her early twenties. 

*nods, i haven't listened or watched her most recent work... due to some complications... i will eventually. 

I shall smoke then continue reading. :3 i guess... it is an interesting read.


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## sadams

*13 Year Old Prodigy Composer Signed to Prestigious NY Management Roster*

Columbia Artists Management has announced the signing of 13 year old composer Alma Deutscher - for management representation in North America

https://theviolinchannel.com/alma-d...ts-management-new-york-signing-north-america/


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## Guest

sadams said:


> *13 Year Old Prodigy Composer Signed to Prestigious NY Management Roster*
> 
> Columbia Artists Management has announced the signing of 13 year old composer Alma Deutscher - for management representation in North America
> 
> https://theviolinchannel.com/alma-d...ts-management-new-york-signing-north-america/


Oh great; just what we need - more Mozart!! Sorry, the kid is weird. She's channelling.


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## scarecroe

How is someone this young even capable is this level of talent? I mean sure, we've all heard about Mozart our entire lives, but to witness someone today on this level is incredible.


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## sadams




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## sadams

Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto #1 in G minor


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## DavidA

sadams said:


> Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto #1 in G minor


The music appears derivative to me but is quite phenomenal for a kid of that age. I don't think Mozart or Mendelssohn were writing better pre-teen


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## fluteman

DavidA said:


> The music appears derivative to me but is quite phenomenal for a kid of that age. I don't think Mozart or Mendelssohn were writing better pre-teen


I think the reason so many great composers of the past destroyed their earliest work is not that it was bad (far from it, in many cases that have survived), but because it was so obviously derivative. Mozart had the immense advantage of his father Leopold, a brilliant musician and inventive composer in his own right. He was writing brilliant original music as early as the age of 10, much simpler than what was to come but no less imaginative. Alma Deutscher and other recent child prodigy composers I have heard have not yet shown that sort of originality, but that doesn't mean they aren't capable of it.


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## Nimrod

A bit of context first: I came upon the tail end of a Alma Deutscher documentary on XM radio recently and thought it was a retrospective on the childhood of some dead, 19th century composer. Imagine my surprise when I looked her up. After some browsing, I thought she was cute and her music was sweet, but then I realized I was on _her own channel_ and suddenly felt I was in some New Media marketing trap. Then I saw her cringeworthy defense of "beautiful music" (even though I perfectly understood and even agree with what, in her limited tween scope, she was trying to say), and that finally tripped my wire and now I find her a bit over-the-top in self promotion. Please, please, let the works stand on their own merits, that's all I ask. If they are good, people will come.

Given that she's a child, one is simply not going to find a candid review of her music except on faceless places like this, so I think the criticism is healthy, but I would like to direct it more towards the music rather than meta-topics like whether her taste is fashionable, whether her management is exploiting her, or whether she will burn out.


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## Nimrod

DavidA said:


> sadams said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alma Deutscher's Violin Concerto #1 in G minor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The music appears derivative to me but is quite phenomenal for a kid of that age. I don't think Mozart or Mendelssohn were writing better pre-teen
Click to expand...

In 2015 she was what, 10? Forget that she is who she is, this is pretty good music of moderate complexity. I wouldn't have guessed it as a child's work. Derivative from our vantage point but assuming all she has listened to is old music, then it's no more derivative than what a 19th century prodigy would have been at 10. I am not sure why that's a strike against her? Instead of seeing her as not possibly having anything new to say, I see it as someone choosing a different point to branch out from. It's not the case that all novelty can only be derived from the tip of the music history tree, development isn't linear anyway. Maybe she'll find some new branch of development from 19th century music. Maybe she'll hear something unknown that unifies old and new music. All of this is possible.

Here, the Second Movement actually shows glimpses of harmonic modernity. Also commendable is the sonic scope of the work, which demonstrates a boldness of authorial voice. The biggest knock isn't the familiarity of the style or the cribbing of some quotations, indeed, but the awkwardness and immaturity of some of the orchestration, but given the showcase is her solo, this is easy to miss.


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## Larkenfield

I was impressed with Alma’s violin concerto, especially the slow movement. I like the concerto as a whole the more I hear it, and she’s getting better and better on violin with a deeper maturity of sound. It has a noticeable sweetness and warmth. As well as she does here, I’d love to hear someone like Hillary Hahn play her concerto. Alma is constantly evolving as a composer and musician, and her music is real even if it does seem inspired by an earlier age. I would place her concerto in a similar mold to the Mendelssohn or Bruch... I wish her the greatest of success. She's a bright spot in a sometimes dingy world, and I don't think she's being exploited or cynically over-promoted. I understand her genuine sentiments about writing music that has beauty. Even at such a young age, she's capable of commanding an audience, and an appreciative one at that.


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## Nimrod

Larkenfield said:


> I was impressed with Alma's violin concerto, especially the slow movement. I like the concerto as a whole the more I hear it, and she's getting better and better and better on violin. I love her sound. As good as she is, I'd love to hear someone like Hillary Hahn play her concerto. Alma is constantly evolving as a composer and musician, and her music is real even if it does seem inspired by an earlier age. I wish her all the success that's possible. She's a bright spot in a sometimes dingy world. I would put her concerto in in a similar mold as the Mendelssohn or Bruch.


Yes, the Second Movement is clearly her most original work in this concerto. Interestingly, as these things go, it was probably the section she spent the _least_ time on technically.

Her playing is not bad (but it is her own piece, so interpretation is not an issue) yet she did inexplicably mess up her own score every time when it comes to the opening theme of her Third Movement (24:52, 29:23), c.f. the orchestra reprise of the same (28:57).


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## ldiat

i am so embarrassed. no wonder Pugg scolded me. did not know this thread was started,,,. "i bad"


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## KenOC

An interesting improvisation by Alma on four randomly-chosen notes. As shown on 60 minutes.


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## Merl

I've stayed out of this thread in all the time I've been on TC,as I didnt have any strong opinions about her work. I suppose, too, that I wanted to see how things would pan out for this young lady, with time. To me she is an incredible talent. I can't criticise her personality as she's still only 13 years old and has a lot of maturing to do yet. It'll be interesting to hear how her work matures in years to come but for now I enjoy her work a lot. I think she's a talent that needs to be nurtured not criticised for her approach to music. Talent like hers comes along so rarely.


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## PlaySalieri

Alma has very savvy parents - kudos to them for getting her talents to such a wide audience.

But let us not get carried away - there are other exceptionally talented young composers and musicians who are not well known.

I dont know if Alma has entered any competitions for young composers - but this would be a good place to have her music properly evaluated - against her peers. Conductors etc are bound to heap praise on a child composer - but adjudicators are ruthless, regardless of age of entrants. From winning compositions I have heard, it is rare for anything that smacks of classical or romantic era music to get any attention in serious competitions.

Daniel Barenboim said of her "Everything that cannot be learnt, she already has"

what does that say? she has an ear - and a gift - but so far has much to learn. Some formal musical discipline is needed to take her talent beyond the prodigy.


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## Guillet81

I quite like Deutscher's music, and in particular her commitment to beauty. The context which needs to be understood here is that many critics have insisted that she must contend with 20th century music (much of which is ugly as sin).

As for this latest full performance of her Violin Concerto in G Minor, I find it very promising. It is not lost on me that if we did not know the composer was a child, we would likely assume a mature adult was behind the work. I am eager to hear what she does with the symphony!


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## Larkenfield

KenOC said:


> An interesting improvisation by Alma on four randomly-chosen notes. As shown on 60 minutes.


I'm a long-time fan of Alma's music, but I was disappointed in her performance here. I thought it rather poor and wish she hadn't done it with such a disappointing middle section. Still, I greatly admire her violin concerto and consider her an important composer to watch in the coming years.

I hope she never engages in a music competition. What young composer or musician deserves "ruthless" criticism? She doesn't need it and gets constructive criticism from her own teachers. They don't just rubberstamp her performances or compositions, and she is aware that she doesn't compose in a 21st century style because it doesn't coincide with her standards of beauty. I believe that's one of the reasons why people are drawn to her.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> An interesting improvisation by Alma on four randomly-chosen notes. As shown on 60 minutes.


She'll never make it as a 'modern' composer. I mean, she actually said people ought to enjoy music! Heresy! :lol:


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## Portamento

DavidA said:


> She'll never make it as a 'modern' composer. I mean, she actually said people ought to enjoy music! Heresy! :lol:


Good one!! I nearly fell off my chair.


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## lachlan1415

I'm sure there are many prodigies but not as good and as passionate as alma. That is what makes her special.


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## PlaySalieri

I watched one or two video where she is explaining her music etc. No doubt has bags of talent and has been taught well. Kind of insufferable prodigy though! She will no doubt level out as she matures.


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## PlaySalieri

Larkenfield said:


> I was impressed with Alma's violin concerto, especially the slow movement. I like the concerto as a whole the more I hear it, and she's getting better and better on violin with a deeper maturity of sound. It has a noticeable sweetness and warmth. As well as she does here, *I'd love to hear someone like Hillary Hahn play her concerto*. Alma is constantly evolving as a composer and musician, and her music is real even if it does seem inspired by an earlier age. I would place her concerto in a similar mold to the Mendelssohn or Bruch... I wish her the greatest of success. She's a bright spot in a sometimes dingy world, and I don't think she's being exploited or cynically over-promoted. I understand her genuine sentiments about writing music that has beauty. Even at such a young age, she's capable of commanding an audience, and an appreciative one at that.


What would be a breakthrough for her is a rec company like DG offer her a contract and the big guns play her works. But would her compositions sell to the buying public? There's a market for going to see a prodigy perform their own works and I know that her CDs sell on amazon - the appeal to buy pretty music composed by a modern day Mozart has its own appeal. But selling to serious classical listeners is going to be a challenge.


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## KenOC

stomanek said:


> ...But selling to serious classical listeners is going to be a challenge.


Why should she want to sell to us, maybe 1% of the music market? If she and her handlers are smart, they'll go for the crossover market.


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## PlaySalieri

KenOC said:


> *Why should she want to sell to us,* maybe 1% of the music market? If she and her handlers are smart, they'll go for the crossover market.


Depends on whether she wants to just make a ton of money - or whether she wants to be respected by snobs like us and the serious CM world.

I would take the money.


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## ManuelMozart95

I hope she grows up to become a serious composer and not just someone who composes pretty pieces for the crossover market.
It would be a waste of talent but money talks you know.


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## PlaySalieri

ManuelMozart95 said:


> *I hope she grows up to become a serious composer* and not just someone who composes pretty pieces for the crossover market.
> It would be a waste of talent but money talks you know.


I think it is unlikely but it doesn't matter as more people will enjoy her music than those young composers who are treading new ground but struggling to get their pieces performed.


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## sadams

The full piano concerto


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## PlaySalieri

sadams said:


> The full piano concerto


Some beautiful passages but nothing interesting to say as yet - but I am sure she will mature and hopefully find her own voice.


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## PlaySalieri

About whether a composer can or should permanently imitate styles from the past I suppose is a matter entirely for the composer. Alma may well remain rooted in the 19thC and be very successful.

I happen to know one English opera composer - wont say who he is but I was at his house a while ago and listening to a recording of a work he composed while at music college in London. I was very impressed as it seemed to be barely inferior in style and quality to any Richard Strauss opera and I said so. He looked very embarrassed - said it was common for young composers to emulate past masters but assured me he had moved on considerably and had found his own voice. The last I heard of him he was struggling to raise sponsorship money to have his latest opera performed in London.


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## Woodduck

sadams said:


> The full piano concerto


But for moments here and there that suggest a later vintage, and a touch of the Classical in the third movement subject, this piece could be the product of an up-and-coming composer around the time of Mendelssohn or Chopin. I find it fascinating that Deutscher truly identifies with this sort of music; she isn't trying to write "in the manner of," and doesn't actually imitate any specific composer of the time, but really lives in that period, artistically speaking, and possesses enough craft to get her meaning across and make us realize that her music is entirely genuine. That's more than I can say for some of the meretricious virtuoso stuff that actually entertained people in that era (here's looking at you, Paganini).

There are moments in this concerto that make me smile at her naivete, but these are apt to be followed by things that make me smile in admiration of her musical instincts and inventiveness. When, for example, she relies on a commonplace or too-obvious cadential formula, making me wonder for a moment how she'll rescue herself, she almost invariably shows her awareness of the danger by picking up the next phrase with some arresting figure or change of harmony. The piece feels a bit episodic at times - now I'll do this to the subject, now I'll do that - but I wasn't bored by it, and was actually moved by the middle movement's moonlit magic and pathos.

This piano concerto gives no hint, after her several years before the public, that Alma Deutscher is even faintly interested in keeping up with current developments in classical music. But how is it even imaginable that she could be, given what we have from her? "Current developments," unless they are deliberately retrospective, represent a musical universe (or universes) which has all but completely severed ties with the heartfelt and graceful humanism of her nature, so unaffected in its sentiment that it feels almost quaint, and able to induce a wistful sadness in an old codger like me who remembers (with increasing difficulty) that he saw remnants of it in the world of his youth.

How Alma got to be the shining spirit she is, is hard to imagine; I suppose it's enough to call her fortunate (or unfortunate if, God forbid, she ever finds herself lonely and her music unappreciated once she is on her own). Merely being out of step with one's time is not rare. But it's rare for an anachronistic spirit to produce art that expresses its individuality with such unselfconscious assurance that it seems not even to require courage of its creator. Perhaps it will on some future day of her life. But whatever is in store for her, we must wish her well.


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## PlaySalieri

Woodduck said:


> But for moments here and there that suggest a later vintage, and a touch of the Classical in the third movement subject, this piece could be the product of an up-and-coming composer around the time of Mendelssohn or Chopin. *I find it fascinating that Deutscher truly identifies with this sort of music;* she isn't trying to write "in the manner of," and doesn't actually imitate any specific composer of the time, but really lives in that period, artistically speaking, and possesses enough craft to get her meaning across and make us realize that her music is entirely genuine. That's more than I can say for some of the meretricious virtuoso stuff that actually entertained people in that era (here's looking at you, Paganini).
> 
> There are moments in this concerto that make me smile at her naivete, but these are apt to be followed by things that make me smile in admiration of her musical instincts and inventiveness. When, for example, she relies on a commonplace or too-obvious cadential formula, making me wonder for a moment how she'll rescue herself, she almost invariably shows her awareness of the danger by picking up the next phrase with some arresting figure or change of harmony. The piece feels a bit episodic at times - now I'll do this to the subject, now I'll do that - but I wasn't bored by it, and was actually moved by the middle movement's moonlit magic and pathos.
> 
> This piano concerto gives no hint, after her several years before the public, that Alma Deutscher is even faintly interested in keeping up with current developments in classical music. But how is it even imaginable that she could be, given what we have from her? "Current developments," unless they are deliberately retrospective, represent a musical universe (or universes) which has all but completely severed ties with the heartfelt and graceful humanism of her nature, so unaffected in its sentiment that it feels almost quaint, and able to induce a wistful sadness in an old codger like me who remembers (with increasing difficulty) that he saw remnants of it in the world of his youth.
> 
> How Alma got to be the shining spirit she is, is hard to imagine; I suppose it's enough to call her fortunate (or unfortunate if, God forbid, she ever finds herself lonely and her music unappreciated once she is on her own). Merely being out of step with one's time is not rare. But it's rare for an anachronistic spirit to produce art that expresses its individuality with such unselfconscious assurance that it seems not even to require courage of its creator. Perhaps it will on some future day of her life. But whatever is in store for her, we must wish her well.


That is probably because she has been allowed the freedom to choose her own direction and there is an ready audience for a famous young virtuoso composer playing conventionally melodic romantic pieces.

Young composers under direction in musical colleges tend to be encouraged to look forwards rather than back, as far as I know. Whether that is a good thing for them I cannot say.


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## Woodduck

stomanek said:


> That is probably because *she has been allowed the freedom to choose her own direction* and there is an ready audience for a famous young virtuoso composer playing conventionally melodic romantic pieces.
> 
> Young composers under direction in musical colleges tend to be encouraged to look forwards rather than back, as far as I know. Whether that is a good thing for them I cannot say.


I would wish for every young person to be allowed to choose her own direction. If it isn't the direction the world is moving in, she, and not the self-appointed standard-bearers of the world, will decide whether she should give a fig. The standard-bearers may look upon Ms. Deutscher as a mere curiosity, but she appears delightfully unfazed, and it does appear that the actual world, as opposed to the one the guardians of contemporary culture want, has room for her. Her music, rooted in the rather distant past, may not influence anyone, but the example of a composer for whom the past is not a faded document but a living heritage might inspire others who have a similar perspective on history and the meaning of contemporaneity.


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## arpeggio

stomanek said:


> Young composers under direction in musical colleges tend to be encouraged to look forwards rather than back, as far as I know. Whether that is a good thing for them I cannot say.


Really? Which universities or conservatories are you talking about?

We have been down this path before in another thread. The music departments I am familiar with in the United States are dominated by tonal neoromantic composers. I remember one of the schools I mentioned was Curtis Institute of Music where only one of the faculty, Tod Machover, was a modernistic composer. He is a visiting professor there and also teaches at MIT.


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## KenOC

arpeggio said:


> Really? Which universities or conservatories are you talking about?
> 
> We have been down this path before in another thread...


New York Times reports: "Outrageous treatment of 'conservative' students at major US music conservatories, especially in the 1940s and 1950s, is increasingly well documented. Even now, forensic teams are digging up mass graves of students who refused to compose according to the rules laid out by the 12-tone serial school…"

(Note: Don't get excited, this is fake news...)


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## PlaySalieri

arpeggio said:


> Really? Which universities or conservatories are you talking about?
> 
> We have been down this path before in another thread. The music departments I am familiar with in the United States are dominated by tonal neoromantic composers. I remember one of the schools I mentioned was Curtis Institute of Music where only one of the faculty, Tod Machover, was a modernistic composer. He is a visiting professor there and also teaches at MIT.


I have some experience of the RCM in London where my son was a student for several years.

Those pieces performed by the students and deemed worthy of performance by the top brass tended to be loose in structure, impressionistic type pieces and tonal yes.

As someone who listens predominantly to music of Mozart's era, and 19thC - I would still prefer to hear modern music at concerts that looks forward rather than back. In my purely subjective view - it should move forward and I see no good reason to listen to music that is based on Brahms, Chopin et al but clearly there is interest as Alma has demonstrated.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> New York Times reports: "Outrageous treatment of 'conservative' students at major US music conservatories, especially in the 1940s and 1950s, is increasingly well documented. Even now, forensic teams are digging up mass graves of students who refused to compose according to the rules laid out by the 12-tone serial school…"
> 
> (Note: Don't get excited, this is fake news...)


This might be fake but there was pressure from the avant-gard school against composers like Walton and Vaughan Williams who composed tonally. Ironic that we now mainly listen to their music rather than the noise purported to be 'progress' by the avant gard


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## arpeggio

stomanek said:


> I have some experience of the RCM in London where my son was a student for several years.
> 
> Those pieces performed by the students and deemed worthy of performance by the top brass tended to be loose in structure, impressionistic type pieces and tonal yes.
> 
> As someone who listens predominantly to music of Mozart's era, and 19thC - I would still prefer to hear modern music at concerts that looks forward rather than back. In my purely subjective view - it should move forward and I see no good reason to listen to music that is based on Brahms, Chopin et al but clearly there is interest as Alma has demonstrated.


Sorry. I have no idea what the situation is in Europe or Asia.


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## PlaySalieri

arpeggio said:


> Sorry. I have no idea what the situation is in Europe or Asia.


Neither do I as I only cited one example.

I have heard quite a few pieces by young composers - winning pieces in composition competitions - and these works bear little resemblance to anything from the late romantics.


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## sadams

The finale of Deutscher's opera* Cinderella

*


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## Sparbet

I am overwhelmed by the lyricism and joy of this composer. Mark my words despite her age she is a major composer. Her musical ability is astounding and she should keep to what God has given her and not listen to the worldly call to contemporize her composing. I've seen that with many beautiful young vocal artists.


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## Sparbet

I have listened to the finale of "Cinderella", her Piano Concerto and her Violin Concerto and I am convinced that this joyous and incredibly gifted soul truly corresponds to the wonderful inspirations and gifts that God has given her! She is a true treasure for England and the World and may the Good Lord protect,bless and prosper Alma!


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## sadams

From her Facebook page:
ALMA AT CARNEGIE HALL
We are excited to announce Alma's New York Debut at the iconic Carnegie Hall, on Dec 12, 2019.
https://www.carnegiehall.org/Calendar/2019/12/12/Alma-Deutscher-at-Carnegie-Hall-0730PM?fbclid=IwAR3Kaz10V95Ar12R5OgYHJHJp6pWCKwlvMm_IchgYdS401gHD-UTjqP0FQg

Program will include:
Alma Deutscher: Violin concerto in G minor 
Alma Deutscher: Piano concerto in E-flat major
Alma Deutscher: Highlights from the opera Cinderella 
Alma Deutscher: Siren Sounds, Concert Waltz


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## sadams




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## sadams

If anybody is interested they will be live-streaming Alma's Carnegie Hall concert on Medici.tv. https://www.medici.tv/en/concerts/j...o3FWEBzrzCDMeaMrl-yZadnAxygKaW3Rp46LQpmHeLDdo For those that don't know it is free to register with Medici.tv


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## sadams

Deutscher - Siren Sounds Concert Waltz - Carnegie Hall


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## Open Book

It sounds like she is making her way through the history of classical music. I didn't realize she had moved out of the classical era.

If she persists, I see her being another John Williams.


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## Fabulin

Open Book said:


> It sounds like she is making her way through the history of classical music. I didn't realize she had moved out of the classical era.
> 
> If she persists, I see her being another John Williams.


I see her being her own beast, not directly comparable to anyone. Maybe a bit like Korngold, Mendelssohn, Shostakovich... who knows? I'm glad she went modernist though. That's a good sign.


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## ahinton

Fabulin said:


> I'm glad she went modernist though. That's a good sign.


Is it? Where has she done that?!


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## Fabulin

ahinton said:


> Is it? Where has she done that?!


First 3 minutes of the concert waltz. I recall people saying in a thread about her, maybe 2 months ago, that she was 200 years behind the meta; able to compose only "neoclassicist pastiches". I'm glad that's not the case.


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## Lilijana

It feels....somehow very _wrong_ to read people projecting their desired aesthetics onto a child composer, but I wish her all the best in her development over the coming decades and look forward to her professional work later on.

Here's a really brilliant article by a composer I admire a lot which sums up the feelings I've always had


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## Open Book

composer jess said:


> It feels....somehow very _wrong_ to read people projecting their desired aesthetics onto a child composer, but I wish her all the best in her development over the coming decades and look forward to her professional work later on.
> 
> Here's a really brilliant article by a composer I admire a lot which sums up the feelings I've always had


I don't find that article interesting at all and don't know why it should sum up your feelings about going easy on child composers. Alma's father sounds like a manically overprotective father according to the biased viewpoint of the writer, who is just having a catfight with him in print -- tedious.

If Alma needs to be protected her family should stop putting her out there, stop stuff like the 60 Minutes interviews, and let her compose a little more quietly.


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## Lilijana

Open Book said:


> I don't find that article interesting at all and don't know why it should sum up your feelings about going easy on child composers. Alma's father sounds like a manically overprotective father according to the biased viewpoint of the writer who is just having a catfight with him in print.
> 
> If Alma needs to be protected her family should stop putting her out there, stop stuff like the 60 Minutes interviews, and let her compose a little more quietly.


I think it's quite important to take issue with ideologues who use children as a vehicle to push their agenda, which is a danger that seems ever more apparent here. Allowing a young composer to have the opportunity for their voice to be heard and to be given this kind of reach is only ever going to be something done in good faith, so it irks me to see her fame being hijacked by youtube comment ideologues and other people who purport the false narrative of beauty being stigmatised.


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## Lilijana

The reason why this so interests me is that there's just something really fascinating about the social media aspect of it. Of course, there have always been child prodigies, and recent child prodigy composers like Emily Bear and Jay Greenberg have their own stories we can read about since they have grown up, but Deutscher is probably the first composers of these to exist alongside and find a platform on sites such as YouTube.


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## Bulldog

Fabulin said:


> First 3 minutes of the concert waltz. I recall people saying in a thread about her, maybe 2 months ago, that she was 200 years behind the meta; able to compose only "neoclassicist pastiches". I'm glad that's not the case.


Actually, it's only the first minute, and it's a ridiculous beginning given that she goes back to her usual style for the remainder of the piece.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Seems like it's trying to pull up a Henze and then fails.


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## sadams




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## Open Book

composer jess said:


> I think it's quite important to take issue with ideologues who use children as a vehicle to push their agenda, which is a danger that seems ever more apparent here. Allowing a young composer to have the opportunity for their voice to be heard and to be given this kind of reach is only ever going to be something done in good faith, so it irks me to see her fame being hijacked by youtube comment ideologues and other people who purport the false narrative of beauty being stigmatised.


If you post on youtube, you're going to get comments. You won't like some of them. You can suppress the comments if you can't put up with other people's opinions.

From what I've seen of Alma Deutscher, she's a tough cookie.


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## science

composer jess said:


> I think it's quite important to take issue with ideologues who use children as a vehicle to push their agenda, which is a danger that seems ever more apparent here. Allowing a young composer to have the opportunity for their voice to be heard and to be given this kind of reach is only ever going to be something done in good faith, so it irks me to see her fame being hijacked by youtube comment ideologues and other people who purport the false narrative of beauty being stigmatised.


Hear, hear!

The ideologues are actually harming her, and intentionally so. If, as she matures and increasingly finds her own voice, she betrays them, they will harm her even more.


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## Guest

Open Book said:


> I don't find that article interesting at all and don't know why it should sum up your feelings about going easy on child composers. Alma's father sounds like a manically overprotective father according to the biased viewpoint of the writer, who is just having a catfight with him in print -- tedious.
> 
> If Alma needs to be protected her family should stop putting her out there, stop stuff like the 60 Minutes interviews, and let her compose a little more quietly.


I found the article interesting - though reading further, discovered my German's not up to scratch and nor is Google's translation. I think Moritz Eggert is being a little disingenuous if he really believes that he wrote nothing that Guy Deutscher could object to.

His point - that there is no widespread agenda in music institutions to compel young composers to write in any particular way - has some merit, I presume?


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