# How do you experience and appreciate ballet works?



## Conrad2

I'm not familiar with ballet so this may a "dumb" question, but how do you experience and appreciate ballet when watching a performance?

I have listen to the Tchaikovsky's _Swan Lake_ in the past and immensely enjoyed it and moved by it. However, when I watched a live performance of it, which was my first time watching ballet, the dancing of the dancers, although elegant and beautiful, left me lost as I couldn't tell the story of the ballet from their dance. Ever since then, I apporach ballet as "regular" (symphony, orchestra, etc.) classical music, where I just listen to the music, but don't watch the dancing. Yet, I feel by doing this, I may lose out on the aspect that set ballet from classical music, which is the dancing. Thus, I created this thread to have a general sense of how more experienced listeners apporach/experience and appreciate ballet.

So here some questions I have to start the discussion: 
1) How to "decipher" the dancing of the ballet dancers?
2) Does understanding the story of the ballet enhance your appreciation of the work? 
3) How is ballet music is distinct from symphonies and opera? 
4) I notice that some choreographers take certain creative liberties of a work which lead to a different performance of a work, so how does these differences impact your experience and appreciation of the art?
5) Does your experience and appreciation of listening to ballet and watching it differs significantly? 
6) Do you experience and appreciate ballet differently from other forms of classical music such as orchestral works? 
The above questions are not exhaustive of my curiosity, so feel free to add more.

I hope that my questions are not ridiculous, and hopefully, I and maybe other members can learn something from the discussion. Thank you for reading this.


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## jkl

Yes, I enjoy watching and listening to the ballet. It is much more enjoyable than just listening. Unlike opera, you need the visual for the complete experience.


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## jegreenwood

This may help some with deciphering. There are quite a few similar videos. Just search for mime in ballet.

An alternative is the approach I take. I tend to favor ballets that have no story - just a choreographer and dancers inspired by music. George Balanchine said, "See the music," and that's what I like to do. (It helps that I subscribe to NY City Ballet.). Balanchine often choreographs to music that wasn't written for the ballet (as do many other choreographers).


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## Amadea

I'm no expert, but I usually look for these elements:

- Good conductor. A known name which inspires trust, so I'm sure the music is good.
- Good coreographer, 'cause I do NOT want this: 



- Good staging and costumes. It really changes a lot the enjoyment.
- Famous dancers, as Roberto Bolle. If you see a famous name, there's a good chance the whole production is excellent.

Here it is a performance I've enjoyed lately:


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## jegreenwood

Amadea said:


> I'm no expert, but I usually look for these elements:
> 
> - Good conductor. A known name which inspires trust, so I'm sure the music is good.
> - Good coreographer, 'cause I do NOT want this: *
> 
> 
> 
> *- Good staging and costumes. It really changes a lot the enjoyment.
> - Famous dancers, as Roberto Bolle. If you see a famous name, there's a good chance the whole production is excellent.
> 
> Here it is a performance I've enjoyed lately:


I have to disagree about the MacMillan production (the first link). As for famous dancers, I have the motion picture release of that production featuring Nureyev and Fonteyn. But as with all art, we can agree to disagree. 

I will check out the second production. Unfortunately, the NY City Ballet's production is only adequate.


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## Conrad2

jegreenwood said:


> This may help some with deciphering. There are quite a few similar videos. Just search for mime in ballet.
> 
> An alternative is the approach I take. I tend to favor ballets that have no story - just a choreographer and dancers inspired by music. George Balanchine said, "See the music," and that's what I like to do. (It helps that I subscribe to NY City Ballet.). Balanchine often choreographs to music that wasn't written for the ballet (as do many other choreographers).


Thank you for your guidance! Those videos are very helpful. Is there any online video of a performance of the non story structure ballet that you mention so I can see if this form is more suitable to me. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Amadea said:


> I'm no expert, but I usually look for these elements:
> 
> - Good conductor. A known name which inspires trust, so I'm sure the music is good.
> - Good coreographer, 'cause I do NOT want this:
> 
> 
> 
> - Good staging and costumes. It really changes a lot the enjoyment.
> - Famous dancers, as Roberto Bolle. If you see a famous name, there's a good chance the whole production is excellent.
> 
> Here it is a performance I've enjoyed lately:


That's general a good rule, to look toward famous people for as exemplar of an artform. I'm currently using Wikipedia to find ballet dancers, conductors, and choreographers. Any other better sources you can recommended?

Also, I'm interested if you have a litmus test for performance beside the names of the performers. Maybe you don't as litmus test can be limiting, but nevertheless perhaps.


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## Amadea

jegreenwood said:


> I have to disagree about the MacMillan production (the first link).


Well, I am not an expert so probably I'm wrong and I don't get it, but personally when I saw that "dance" I was quite disappointed. Why is it good in your opinion? The piece is dramatic and proud, but there's nothing of that in the "dance". They're also barely moving. I do not expect them to jump of course, but they're almost still, not expressing the music... it's silly in my eyes. I know MacMillan is important but I personally didn't like it. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe I look at it from a musician perspective. I might ask my mother, she's a ballerina in retirement.

Examples of what I prefer:

- 




-


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## Amadea

Conrad2 said:


> That's general a good rule, to look toward famous people for as exemplar of an artform. I'm currently using Wikipedia to find ballet dancers, conductors, and choreographers. Any other better sources you can recommended?


No, I use google too.



Conrad2 said:


> Also, I'm interested if you have a litmus test for performance beside the names of the performers. Maybe you don't as litmus test can be limiting, but nevertheless perhaps.


Well, not really. Usually I look for renowned theatres and they tend to have good dancers. I'm not an expert so I can't really say if the performer is bad, I can just say if I like or not. Usually big productions have excellent performers.


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## jegreenwood

Amadea said:


> Well, I am not an expert so probably I'm wrong and I don't get it, but personally when I saw that "dance" I was quite disappointed. Why is it good in your opinion? The piece is dramatic and proud, but there's nothing of that in the "dance". They're also barely moving. I do not expect them to jump of course, but they're almost still, not expressing the music... it's silly in my eyes. I know MacMillan is important but I personally didn't like it. Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe I look at it from a musician perspective. I might ask my mother, she's a ballerina in retirement.
> 
> Examples of what I prefer:
> 
> -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -


MacMillan was controversial (although R&J was his greatest success). Overall, I don't know him very well, so some of this is simply from what I've read. He was trying for a greater realism in ballet. Actually what I saw in his version was a family that could well be engaged in a bloody multi-generation feud.


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## jegreenwood

Conrad2 said:


> Thank you for your guidance! Those videos are very helpful. Is there any online video of a performance of the non story structure ballet that you mention so I can see if this form is more suitable to me.
> 
> . . . .


Many of the good ones can't be found on YouTube in high quality video. But you can find segments of Jerome Robbins' "Dancers at a Gathering" here.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dan...KUQ_AUoAXoECAMQAQ&biw=1024&bih=665&dpr=2#ip=1

The ballet consists of a number of dances set to the solo piano works of Chopin.


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## Conrad2

jegreenwood said:


> Many of the good ones can't be found on YouTube in high quality video. But you can find segments of Jerome Robbins' "Dancers at a Gathering" here.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=dan...KUQ_AUoAXoECAMQAQ&biw=1024&bih=665&dpr=2#ip=1
> 
> The ballet consists of a number of dances set to the solo piano works of Chopin.


Thanks for recommending the ballet to me. I was able to find a somewhat complete version of it performed by the Paris Opera Ballet. The performance struck a chord within me as I was enchanted on how natural and organic the dancing was with the music, where it acts as an extension of the music, not distinct from it. I didn't feel like I have to "know" what is going in front of me, as there are no story to follow, only need to follow the emotion that the dancers has expressed. The only grip I have, was the poor quality video and the incessant coughing emanating from someone in the audience which I didn't fault the performers for that. Although, I may have not express how much it touches me, thank you for sharing it.

This seems to be a style that I'm able to connect to. I will try to find more similar to this. What other works do you recommend?

I have a difficult time to find works that I can watch online either by buying a subscription or renting a video of it. There seems to be a desert of ballet in the streaming field, and it appears that the only practical way is to watch it live, which is something I can't do now. Is there a "Netflix" or "Amazon Video" version in the ballet world?

Once again, thank you for giving me your recommendation. :tiphat:


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## jegreenwood

Glad you liked it!

Some others:

_Serenade_ - the one that got me hooked. There are a couple of YouTube videos, of adequate but not great quality (and no commercial videos of good quality either). Music is Tchaikovsky's Serenade in C. If you watch, switch to full screen before the curtain rises. The opening tableau is breathtaking; hopefully this will come through on YouTube. If you like it, read up on the history of the piece.

_Jewels_ - This consists of three ballets, Emeralds to music by Faure, Rubies to Stravinsky's Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra, and Diamonds to portions of Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 3. Looks like the Mariinsky Ballet performance is on YouTube. All three parts are good, but I bet Rubies will grab you on first viewing.

Both of those are by Balanchine.

Even if Philip Glass doesn't appeal to you, check out Jerome Robbins' _Glass Pieces_. Also on YouTube.

I emphasize Balanchine and Robbins because they are the foundation of NYC Ballet, and I have seen many of their works. Unfortunately City Ballet rarely releases commercial videos of its work, much less offers them on YouTube (except older recordings and _The Nutcracker_). The one recent exception is NYC Ballet in Paris (available on DVD and Blu-Ray and maybe to PBS subscribers), which contains four ballets to music by French composers, all choreographed by Balanchine. All worth seeing, but the standout is _Symphony in C_ to music by Bizet. (There's an older recording on YouTube.)

My favorite contemporary choreographer is Alexei Ratmansky. I've seen several story ballets by him, _Sleeping Beauty_ and _Cinderella_, which were both good, but I prefer several of the plotless ballets he created for NYC Ballet. Keep an eye out especially for his _Pictures at an Exhibition_.


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## Marsilius

_5) Does your experience and appreciation of listening to ballet and watching it differs significantly?_

Yes, hugely.

Conductors and orchestras in the theatre are forced to play - just as the commissioned composer expected them to - to the capabilities of the dancers. While one or two dance superstars may be able to perform at, say, incredibly fast tempi, most members of the corps de ballet can't. The same goes for ultra-slow tempi. Conductors directing orchestras from the pit are therefore tightly constrained by the dancers' abilities and sheer stamina.

Conductors directing orchestras purely for audio recordings often choose, on the other hand, more extreme tempi to make the scores more superficially "exciting" for listeners at home - who might otherwise become bored by lesser tempi changes while not having the visual on-stage entertainment to otherwise engage them.

As someone who attends a lot of live ballet performances, I can always thereafter "see" a performance in my mind's eye when listening to CDs at home. As such, I find extreme tempi - no matter how superficially exciting - really unsuitable as I know that dancers could not really dance to them.

Of course, if choreographers choose, as many have been doing since the start of the 20th century, to set ballets to _existing "pure" music_, that's a different matter entirely...


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## jegreenwood

Marsilius said:


> . . . .
> Of course, if choreographers choose, as many have been doing since the start of the 20th century, to set ballets to _existing "pure" music_, that's a different matter entirely...


Reminds me of watching a performance of Jerome Robbins' _Goldberg Variations_. The poor pianist is required to play one of the greatest masterpieces for the keyboard - more than an hour of music - at tempos set by the choreographer and the dancers, and nobody's really listening to him.

To make matters worse, it's not a great ballet.


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## Ingélou

Although I enjoy listening to ballet music on its own, watching the dancing at a live performance enhances my enjoyment 500%. The more I know of the story and any background on the choreography, dancers, performance history, the better - but the dancing itself is vital, and the visual aspects and the acting are also very important. 

Sadly, my opportunities for watching live ballet are very few but I seize them with both hands.


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## fauxmaven

Hi- I am new and this is my first post! I have been around classical ballet my whole life. Glad to find a forum of like minded people!


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## jegreenwood

fauxmaven said:


> Hi- I am new and this is my first post! I have been around classical ballet my whole life. Glad to find a forum of like minded people!


Welcome! Looking forward to reading your thoughts.


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## fauxmaven

I know alot about ballet. I was lucky enough to meet Anthony Dowell and Antoinette Sibley of the Royal Ballet when they came to our house for dinner. My son attended the School of American Ballet in NYC and had opportunities to perform with NYCB in Nutcracker, as well as with ABT, before they had a school. I saw Margot Fonteyn and Nureyev perform their their first time in LA. I studied ballet as a child. Lots of information to share!


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## jegreenwood

Wow! My only interaction with the dancers was at a private NYCB reception back in 2000. We were there courtesy of a connection with my girlfriend at the time. The problem was that at the time I hadn’t developed my interest in ballet, so I didn’t know who anybody was.


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## Enthusiast

I'm not a ballet fan really but I enjoy quite a lot of ballet music. But most of it is probably too long for regular listening as pure music. Sometimes there is a good suite that works for me and some ballets - notably those by Stravinsky - work well as pure music and do not seem a minute too long. It is probably time for me to spend a bit of time understanding and appreciating dance.


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## Marsilius

jegreenwood said:


> Many of the good ones can't be found on YouTube in high quality video. But you can find segments of Jerome Robbins' "Dancers at a Gathering" here.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=dan...KUQ_AUoAXoECAMQAQ&biw=1024&bih=665&dpr=2#ip=1
> 
> The ballet consists of a number of dances set to the solo piano works of Chopin.


An excellent DVD of the Royal Ballet performing Dances at a Gathering has just been released. The coupling is especially interesting too. See here http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Apr/Cellist-dances-OABD7277D.htm


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## jegreenwood

Marsilius said:


> An excellent DVD of the Royal Ballet performing Dances at a Gathering has just been released. The coupling is especially interesting too. See here http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2021/Apr/Cellist-dances-OABD7277D.htm


Thanks! Just ordered it from Amazon.co.uk.


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## Neo Romanza

jkl said:


> Yes, I enjoy watching and listening to the ballet. It is much more enjoyable than just listening. Unlike opera, you need the visual for the complete experience.


Not for me. I don't really enjoy watching opera or ballet. I get an incredible amount of pleasure by just listening to the music. Of course, I do sometimes like to know about the narrative of the ballet, so I'll read a synopsis of it beforehand. But, I think if you enjoy listening to the music, then that's all that truly matters. I will also say that just because something does have a story or some kind of narrative, it doesn't mean I'll come away with that experience after listening to it. A scene in a ballet could be described as a being a night scene with haunting creatures lurking in the background, but what I interpret it to be is a scene at sunset walking along a pier and listening to the water hitting the shore. We all experience music in a different way and hear things through our own unique frame of mind and this experience is completely singular and not one person will hear what you hear. That's the great thing about this music --- there's no wrong to interpret it.


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## BBSVK

I am primarily an opera lover and rarely see the ballet. However, for both opera and ballet, I strongly advise buying a booklet or pre-read the plot on wikipedia. People don't believe it's necessary, they often say the plot is not important for them. But in the end they end up guessing what the hell is going on, instead of immersing themselves into the emotionality of the performance.


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## jegreenwood

BBSVK said:


> I am primarily an opera lover and rarely see the ballet. However, for both opera and ballet, I strongly advise buying a booklet or pre-read the plot on wikipedia. People don't believe it's necessary, they often say the plot is not important for them. But in the end they end up guessing what the hell is going on, instead of immersing themselves into the emotionality of the performance.


Agreed. Also, there are some online videos demonstrating mime language in ballet. I like this one using a scene from _Swan Lake._





Or you can deal with it by choosing non-story or minimal-story ballets (which I do most of the time). They can be as moving as story ballets. _Serenade_ and _Dancers at a Gathering_ strike me as great starting points.


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## jegreenwood

Neo Romanza said:


> Not for me. I don't really enjoy watching opera or ballet. I get an incredible amount of pleasure by just listening to the music. Of course, I do sometimes like to know about the narrative of the ballet, so I'll read a synopsis of it beforehand. *But, I think if you enjoy listening to the music, then that's all that truly matters. *I will also say that just because something does have a story or some kind of narrative, it doesn't mean I'll come away with that experience after listening to it. A scene in a ballet could be described as a being a night scene with haunting creatures lurking in the background, but what I interpret it to be is a scene at sunset walking along a pier and listening to the water hitting the shore. We all experience music in a different way and hear things through our own unique frame of mind and this experience is completely singular and not one person will hear what you hear. That's the great thing about this music --- there's no wrong to interpret it.


My ballet hero, George Balanchine, said that if you don't like the dance, you can still enjoy the music. But as far as I'm concerned, then it's simply a concert piece. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not ballet.

More often than not, Balanchine would take an existing concert work (e.g. Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings or Stravinsky's Violin Concerto) and set a ballet to it. Seeing the interplay between the music (especially if it's music you know) and the dancer is, for me, totally different than simply hearing it.


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## BBSVK

I once saw a Sleeping Beauty with very mediocre dancing, for instance the dancers were not in sync if there were more of them on stage. I was bored to death. My mother was content, she said it is still Tchaikovsky's beautiful music, so what's wrong ? But for me, it is too long to sit through, if it is not watchable. The music itself as a background to cleaning a flat or making a jam would probably be OK.


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## jegreenwood

BBSVK said:


> I once saw a Sleeping Beauty with very mediocre dancing, for instance the dancers were not in sync if there were more of them on stage. I was bored to death. My mother was content, she said it is still Tchaikovsky's beautiful music, so what's wrong ? But for me, it is too long to sit through, if it is not watchable. The music itself as a background to cleaning a flat or making a jam would probably be OK.


Previn’s more or less uncut Sleeping Beauty runs about 160 minutes. Can you think of a mainstream concert work of equal length? The Suite runs about 20 minutes.


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