# Conductors who don't get much love on TalkClassical



## Rach Man

Here's a topic, conductors who don't get much love on TalkClassical.
I am not a musician, nor do I play one on TV. But I listen to a lot of music and there are conductors that I really like that don't get much love here. So here are three conductors that get little love here. Are there others that you feel are slighted on this site?

#1 Sir Georg Solti: I really like much of his work. I think he was an excellent conductor with wonderful symphonies. But on TalkClassical one would think that the Chicago Symphony, London Symphony, etc. were crazy for allowing him to run their orchestras for so many years and to allow him to record a multitude of music for them. 

#2 Christoph von Dohnanyi, especially with the Cleveland Symphony: I have quite a few pieces by him and his orchestras and really like his direction and view of the music that he oversaw.

#3 Manfred Honeck with the Pittsburgh Symphony: The music that the Pittsburgh Symphony has put out in the last decade is wonderful and, from what I read, the musicians of that orchestra think that he has taken them to another gear that they have not seen before. Plus, his recordings with the PSO are terrific, sonic-wise.


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## Judith

I have a couple of pieces performed by Christoph Von Donhaniyi and like them. Another conductor who I like and not mentioned very often is Sakari Oramo. I loved him on the proms and have a DVD of him conducting. Wonderful.


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## realdealblues

Rach Man said:


> Here's a topic, conductors who don't get much love on TalkClassical.
> I am not a musician, nor do I play one on TV. But I listen to a lot of music and there are conductors that I really like that don't get much love here. So here are three conductors that get little love here. Are there others that you feel are slighted on this site?
> 
> #1 Sir Georg Solti: I really like much of his work. I think he was an excellent conductor with wonderful symphonies. But on TalkClassical one would think that the Chicago Symphony, London Symphony, etc. were crazy for allowing him to run their orchestras for so many years and to allow him to record a multitude of music for them.
> 
> #2 Christoph von Dohnanyi, especially with the Cleveland Symphony: I have quite a few pieces by him and his orchestras and really like his direction and view of the music that he oversaw.
> 
> #3 Manfred Honeck with the Pittsburgh Symphony: The music that the Pittsburgh Symphony has put out in the last decade is wonderful and, from what I read, the musicians of that orchestra think that he has taken them to another gear that they have not seen before. Plus, his recordings with the PSO are terrific, sonic-wise.


Solti is pretty much a household name in the Classical world as far back as I can remember. I think Solti appeals to a lot of people and I've never heard anyone say he was a terrible conductor. He did a lot of good recordings. His Wagner is still highly respected. Much of his Opera recordings in general are highly rated. His Brahms cycle is very good. He did good Beethoven, Mahler, Bartok, etc. but the keyword there is "good". I wouldn't fault someone if all they had was Solti's 70's Beethoven cycle as they could certainly do worse, and it was a "good" cycle. But they could also do better as there have been other performances committed to disc that were "great" or "excellent".

Christoph von Dohnanyi I agree with not being as popular as he deserves to be. He was a great conductor with top notch Mendelssohn, Brahms and Beethoven cycles. He was also excellent at Ives, Schumann, Mozart, Dvorak just of the top of my head. Other than some awful Mahler recordings he usually made great to excellent recordings and should be more widely listened too.

Manfred Honeck hasn't been around and recording as long as the other two but I feel he is becoming more and more popular with current classical listeners. Indeed he has done some very good work recently.

I don't really have anyone to add at the moment as I can't think of anyone that is criminally underrated per say. I'd have to see some other picks...


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## Pat Fairlea

Here's a thought. Antal Dorati. Not one of the legendary big names, but he did a good job with several major orchestras, kept e.g. Bartok in the public eye, made a stack of recordings that introduced lots of people to CM. And his 1969 recording of Sibelius' Luonnotar with Gwynneth Jones was utterly superb.


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## Pugg

Pat Fairlea said:


> Here's a thought. Antal Dorati. Not one of the legendary big names, but he did a good job with several major orchestras, kept e.g. Bartok in the public eye, made a stack of recordings that introduced lots of people to CM. And his 1969 recording of Sibelius' Luonnotar with Gwynneth Jones was utterly superb.


Paul Paray is in the same league.


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## Merl

I'm gonna throw Neumann and Leinsdorf into the 'sadly neglected' mix. Neuman has made some excellent recordings, especially his 2 Dvorak cycles and Leinsdorf's Mahler 1 & 3 recordings are similarly impressive (plus my current favourite Beethoven 9). Totally agree about Honeck. His Mahler, Dvorak and Beethoven Reference recordings are generally superb. Ivan Fischer rarely gets a mention on here either but I have lots of his recordings and his Beethoven and Mahler are very impressive.


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## Pugg

> I think Solti appeals to a lot of people and I've never heard anyone say he was a terrible conductor.


I know two from the top of my head, can't name names though.


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## hpowders

Arturo Toscanini.

Probably because many of the younger posters have never become acquainted with his work.

He gets little if any respect around these parts.


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## TxllxT

小澤 征爾, Ozawa Seiji is a conductor that is a riddle to me. Whatever I hear under his baton, I don't like. It seems TC has the same opinion.

Vladimir Ashkenazy I do regard as splendid when he plays the piano (all of it), but as a conductor he is so wobbly wavering... He's not often mentioned in TC.

Charles Dutoit is forgotten on TC, but not by me.


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## amfortas

No one's mentioned Karajan yet?


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## Becca

Which Karajan? The 1950's London Karajan or the late 70's-80's Berlin Karajan?


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## howlingfantods

Pugg said:


> I know two from the top of my head, can't name names though.


I don't mind if you name names.

I only dislike most of his Wagner, Verdi, and Mahler though. I actually like some of his later Wagner (Meistersinger 2 and Tannhauser are both very good, Lohengrin pretty decent) and his Mozart is pretty decent.

When I listen to his recordings, the problem is that instead of thinking of Aida's love for Radames or Isolde's love for Tristan, instead I'm thinking of the most passionate love of all--Solti for his brasses. I picture him in an empty room surrounded with horns, a glass of red in hand, the Barry White on the hi-fi...


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## Merl

Gary Bertini. I know I'm always championing his Mahler cycle (which is excellent) but he made a number of other very good recordings (Berlioz Requiem, Ravel Daphnis et Chloe, Debussy La Mer, etc). I really rate his Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique and Carnaval Romain too (but not every reviewer did).


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## starthrower

Other than Bernstein, and maybe Levine, many American conductors don't get much mention. Andre Previn, Lorin Maazel, Gerard Schwarz, Leonard Slatkin, Marin Alsop. Schwarz has recorded a lot of American composers. I suppose Slatkin isn't too exciting, but Maazel and Previn are pretty solid.


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## Becca

Having seen Previn many times during his years as MD of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, his work could be decidedly mixed. That which he liked and felt a connection with were done very well, many other pieces came across as decidedly mediocre. Having said that, I do think well of Previn for his conducting of Vaughan Williams, Rachmaninoff, Debussy amongst others.

As to Maazel ... no comment.


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## Gordontrek

I agree with Dohnanyi. Really has some fine recordings of Dvorak and Tchaikovsky with the Cleveland Orchestra. He is actually the only really top-tier conductor I've seen live so far; I saw him conduct Tchaikovsky's 6th with the Chicago Symphony two years ago. One of the best experiences of my life. 
My second choice is Andre Previn. A lot of his recordings become my standard. Love his Berlioz and Ravel, and his Shostakovich is surprisingly good (his 5th with the Chicago Symphony is stunning). There's a lesser known Symphonie Fantastique he did with the Royal Philharmonic that is my favorite recording of the work.


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## Heliogabo

No one has mentioned Celibidache?
His name comes to my mind.


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## Pugg

Heliogabo said:


> No one has mentioned Celibidache?
> His name comes to my mind.


Helenora is the high priestesses for Mr Celibidache.


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## Merl

Gordontrek said:


> I agree with Dohnanyi. Really has some fine recordings of Dvorak and Tchaikovsky with the Cleveland Orchestra. He is actually the only really top-tier conductor I've seen live so far; I saw him conduct Tchaikovsky's 6th with the Chicago Symphony two years ago. One of the best experiences of my life.


I couldn't let Dohnanyi go without mentioning hiis Beethoven cycle which is technically superb, too (could do with a bit more emotion / grit but that's a teeny personal grumble for what is a beautifully recorded and played set, especially the even numbered symphonies).


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## Heliogabo

Pugg said:


> Helenora is the high priestesses for Mr Celibidache.


Yes I know, but it seems she's the only one?
How many people's love is not much love? 
At least here in TC....


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## amfortas

Becca said:


> Which Karajan? The 1950's London Karajan or the late 70's-80's Berlin Karajan?


People seem to admire Karajan's early work; it's the later stuff that doesn't get as much love here. Then again, that may be entirely justified.


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## hpowders

I don't see much about Wilhelm Furtwängler on TC.


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## Pugg

How about Willem Mengelberg, he made the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra famous.


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## shadowdancer

hpowders said:


> I don't see much about Wilhelm Furtwängler on TC.


I do agree with both of your comments:
Furtwängler and Toscanini pretty much cover opposites sides of the wide spectrum that is called conducting (at least for the 20th century). With both, anything that you hear could be placed somewhere between the two.
And, indeed, it would be nice if we could see more these names around here.

As usual, just mho.


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## hpowders

shadowdancer said:


> I do agree with both of your comments:
> Furtwängler and Toscanini pretty much cover opposites sides of the wide spectrum that is called conducting (at least for the 20th century). With both, anything that you hear could be placed somewhere between the two.
> And, indeed, it would be nice if we could see more these names around here.
> 
> As usual, just mho.


The reason is probably because TC posting is probably skewed toward younger folks who don't even know who these maestros were.

You can also add Guido Cantelli to the mix.


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## DavidA

hpowders said:


> Arturo Toscanini.
> 
> Probably because many of the younger posters have never become acquainted with his work.
> 
> He gets little if any respect around these parts.


The problem is that Toscanini's recordings are in pretty awful sound


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## DavidA

Becca said:


> Which Karajan? The 1950's London Karajan or the late 70's-80's Berlin Karajan?


Or the studio Karajan or the live Karajan?


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## DavidA

amfortas said:


> People seem to admire Karajan's early work; it's the later stuff that doesn't get as much love here. Then again, that may be entirely justified.


The problem is with Karajan that he recorded too much. His late Beethoven symphony cycle is good, but actually unnecessary as he had already given us three splendid cycles and the last one isn't as good overall. But some of his late work is stupendous - for example his Bruckner 7 & 8 with the VPO. Of course it's fashionable to denigrate HvK these days as he's been blamed for anything from wrecking the recording industry (he actually made it a lot of money) and starting the second world war. Actually he was a fine conductor and, especially if you take the best of his recordings, a very catholic one too.


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## superhorn

Toscanini still has lots of admirers, but he lived from 1867 to 1957 , and there are not too many people alive who are old enough to have experienced his conducting in the flesh . 
But during his lifetime and some years after, he was worshipped as an almost godlike figure , by so many prominent music critics and others . 
He's best known for his recordings, made late in his long life, with the legendary NBC symphony for RCA , but like many other people, I've never been too fond of them, and many said his best performances were live with other orchestras .
The NBC recordings have always struck me as rather mechanical, joyless and stiffly regimented , and I'm not alone in this . But many have said you had to have heard him in his earlier days, when he was much more flexible and spontaneous . 
Just compare the recordings he made with the New York Philharmonic for RCA with the New York Philharmonic when he was music director in the 1920s and 30s to see how different they are from the NBC symphony performances . I have these on a 3 CD set , and they include his legendary Beethoven 7th, plus the Brahms Haydn variations , the Haydn "Clock " symphony , the Dukas Sorcerer's Apprentice , plus overtures and preludes by Rossini, Verdi and Wagner .


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## amfortas

DavidA said:


> Or the studio Karajan or the live Karajan?


How about early live? His Bayreuth 1951 _Meistersinger a_nd 1952 _Tristan_ hold up well against any of his later work.


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## DavidA

amfortas said:


> How about early live? His Bayreuth 1951 _Meistersinger a_nd 1952 _Tristan_ hold up well against any of his later work.


Yes they are great performances. But it doesn't mean to say that there were no great performances later on.


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## hpowders

Don't see much around here of the great Charles Munch. Legendary in French AND German repertoire with the Boston Symphony Orchestra.


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## Templeton

I think that outside of his opera recordings, James Levine is very underrated. Some of his orchestral recordings are amongst the finest that I have heard. I have recently been listening to Fabio Luisi's recordings of Richard Strauss and Franz Schmidt and these are landmark ones, in my humble opinion. I have previously seen very little love for him on this forum. Semyon Bychkov is another one, as is Paavo Järvi, whose Beethoven cycle is the best modern one that I have come across. I actually thought that he would have been a very good choice for the Berlin Philharmonic, after Rattle , and was surprised that his name didn't come up more often.

Somebody earlier mentioned Charles Dutoit and I would definitely agree with this. Furtwängler was also mentioned, which surprised me, as his name often comes up on here; he is also my favourite conductor, simply unique.

Final one and particularly apt, given his recent passing, is Sir Neville Marriner. He covered such a huge repertoire that inevitably not all of his recordings were going to be the best ever but in my opinion, they were invariably very good and many were magnificent.


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## Becca

Semyon Bychkov (seconded)
Mark Elder
Gianandrea Noseda

...and, of course, my avatar ... Barbara Hannigan - who else both conducts and sings at the same time? Whether it be Berg, Sibelius, Gershwin or Mozart. I am waiting for her to do Mahler 4!!


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## Templeton

Becca said:


> Semyon Bychkov (seconded)
> Mark Elder
> Gianandrea Noseda
> 
> ...and, of course, my avatar ... Barbara Hannigan - who else both conducts and sings at the same time? Whether it be Berg, Sibelius, Gershwin or Mozart. I am waiting for her to do Mahler 4!!


I didn't consider Sir Mark Elder, who also happens to be the music director of one of my local orchestras, the Hallé, in Manchester. He is extremely charasmatic and generally brings out the best in the Hallé , although I was a little disappointed with their recent performance of Beethoven's 9th, compared with the performance of his neighbour, Vasily Petrenko, with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, last year. Petrenko is definitely somebody who is going places.

I don't know Gianandrea Noseda and only know Barbara Hannigan from the following:






She's certainly unique, as well as photogenic! I hadn't actually realised that's who your avatar was.


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## techniquest

I'm going to nominate Anton Nanut and Antoni Wit 
I think I'll also mention Marin Alsop.


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## Alfacharger

Benjamin Zander, listen to what he could do with a bunch of kids playing Mahler!


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## Becca

Templeton said:


> I don't know Gianandrea Noseda and only know Barbara Hannigan from the following:
> 
> She's certainly unique, as well as photogenic! I hadn't actually realised that's who your avatar was.


Noseda was the principal conductor of the BBC Philharmonic from 2002 to 2011. He is the music director designate of the National Symphony (Washington, DC) and a principal guest conductor with the London Symphony.






and a short solo piece by Luigi Nono followed by Haydn's 49th symphony...


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## Enthusiast

To me Jansons is certainly one of the greatest living conductors. His music making is really well paced - he builds tensions and climaxes as well as anyone ever - and is not at all showy. So many of his recordings are excellent. 

I also second Oramo as consistently worth hearing. 

And I agree that anyone who looks down on Solti or Bernstein for whatever reason needs to listen again. Karajan was an interesting choice. I avoided him for years and do not like to get to know a piece from his performances. But once I know a piece I feel sure that Karajan will have something special to say about it. 

So many other conductors are worth mentioning ...


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## Chronochromie

Rafael Kubelik.


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## Merl

Enthusiast said:


> To me Jansons is certainly one of the greatest living conductors. His music making is really well paced - he builds tensions and climaxes as well as anyone ever - and is not at all showy. So many of his recordings are excellent.


Jansons' Bruckner was mostly good, his Dvorak excellent and his Beethoven cycle was superb. One of the best in a crowded field, for me. If you haven't heard it then grab it. Superb stuff.


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## amfortas

Chronochromie said:


> Rafael Kubelik.


Oh yes, I forgot about Kubelik! (Which only shows how much he belongs on this list.) Some of his recordings stand up against any competition: Mahler 1st, _Má vlast_, _Meistersinger_, _Parsifal_.


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## amfortas

Merl said:


> Jansons' Bruckner was mostly good, his Dvorak excellent and his Beethoven cycle was superb. One of the best in a crowded field, for me. If you haven't heard it then grab it. Superb stuff.


Also his Tchaikovsky symphonies.


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## Jerry

techniquest said:


> I'm going to nominate Anton Nanut....


Absolutely.
One of the great conductors, imo.
His symphonic recordings of Bruckner 8th, Beethoven 7th, Shostakovich 7th and Mahler 6th are superb and can come head to head with those of any better known conductor, imo.


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## Orfeo

There are plenty of Russian and British conductors whom I feel are quite overlooked, including:

Svetlanov
Kondrashin
Nebolsin
Fedoseyev
Samosud
Rozhdestvensky
Gauk
Golovanov
Mravinsky (sort of)
Handley
Thomson
Hickox
Leppard, Raymond
Some of the French conductors are not so lucky either (Plasson, Pretre, Fournet, Jordan (Swiss), Lombard).


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## Razumovskymas

superhorn said:


> Toscanini still has lots of admirers, but he lived from 1867 to 1957 , and there are not too many people alive who are old enough to have experienced his conducting in the flesh .
> But during his lifetime and some years after, he was worshipped as an almost godlike figure , by so many prominent music critics and others .
> He's best known for his recordings, made late in his long life, with the legendary NBC symphony for RCA , but like many other people, I've never been too fond of them, and many said his best performances were live with other orchestras .
> The NBC recordings have always struck me as rather mechanical, joyless and stiffly regimented , and I'm not alone in this . But many have said you had to have heard him in his earlier days, when he was much more flexible and spontaneous .
> Just compare the recordings he made with the New York Philharmonic for RCA with the New York Philharmonic when he was music director in the 1920s and 30s to see how different they are from the NBC symphony performances . I have these on a 3 CD set , and they include his legendary Beethoven 7th, plus the Brahms Haydn variations , the Haydn "Clock " symphony , the Dukas Sorcerer's Apprentice , plus overtures and preludes by Rossini, Verdi and Wagner .


I totally love his Beethoven Cycle recorded with the NBC Symphony Orchestra in 1939. It's sound quality I think is really ok considering it being recorded in the interbellum!

I also like it's recording style: very dry, no reverb, like it's recorded in a small acoustic room or cellar or something. Every single instrument sounds as if you're right next to it. Totally different from the recording styles that we hear these days, which to me too often sound too thin and with too much reverb.

And for his conducting style: he's totally furious, I don't think many composers have this high tempo's. The orchestra sounds as if it's blowing the symphony to pieces. Maybe not for all but for me it was a revelation, being used to Karajan and others.

I bought the remastered version of the complete cycle (1939) on I-tunes.

Here's the first movement of the 3th:


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## JACE

Chronochromie said:


> Rafael Kubelik.


Oh yes! Fantastic conductor.

Two names from the past that spring to mind for me: *Hermann Scherchen* and *Jascha Horenstein*.


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## JACE

Another conductor who's sometimes under-appreciated -- or perhaps a better term would be "hidden in plain sight" because he made SO MANY recordings -- is *Eugene Ormandy*.

He comes in for a lot of stick among some (many?) critics and listeners, but -- if you find him in the right repertoire -- I think the guy made some GREAT music. And the orchestra he conducted... _phew!_ They could make some _awe-inspiring_ sounds.


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## LOLWUT

The most underrated conductors of all time are Horenstein and Karl Richter.


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## DavidA

One very fine conductor was Adrian Boult. Because he looked and sounded so British and Establishment people tended to think he was dull but he could inject life a plenty into music.


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## LOLWUT

DavidA said:


> One very fine conductor was Adrian Boult. Because he looked and sounded so British and Establishment people tended to think he was dull but he could inject life a plenty into music.


That's a really old school one. If we go that far back, might as well mention Mahler or Hans von Bulow.


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## amfortas

JACE said:


> Another conductor who's sometimes under-appreciated -- or perhaps a better term would be "hidden in plain sight" because he made SO MANY recordings -- is *Eugene Ormandy*.


I love his Mahler 10th--the premiere recording of Deryck Cooke's first performing edition. The Adagio really sings.


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## DavidA

LOLWUT said:


> That's a really old school one. If we go that far back, might as well mention Mahler or Hans von Bulow.


Not quite. I saw Boult conduct when I was a young man. Never saw the other two!


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## LOLWUT

DavidA said:


> Not quite. I saw Boult conduct when I was a young man. Never saw the other two!


Very lucky. Did you ever see Bernstein conduct?


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## Mal

realdealblues said:


> Solti is pretty much a household name in the Classical world as far back as I can remember. I think Solti appeals to a lot of people and I've never heard anyone say he was a terrible conductor. He did a lot of good recordings. His Wagner is still highly respected. Much of his Opera recordings in general are highly rated. His Brahms cycle is very good. He did good Beethoven, Mahler, Bartok, etc. but the keyword there is "good". I wouldn't fault someone if all they had was Solti's 70's Beethoven cycle as they could certainly do worse, and it was a "good" cycle. But they could also do better as there have been other performances committed to disc that were "great" or "excellent".


Great job of "damning with faint praise". Rob Cowan in his Guinness 1000 guide picks Solti as a top choice in several works, e.g., Mahler #8, and Bruckner #1, #2. I'm not sure if I will eventually agree with Rob, but they are also my choices for the moment...


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## joen_cph

LOLWUT said:


> That's a really old school one. If we go that far back, might as well mention Mahler or Hans von Bulow.


*Boult* (1889-1983) did a lot of recordings also in the 1970s.

*Horenstein* for example died in 1973. An interesting short biography about him here:
http://www.classical.net/music/performer/horenstein/index.php

Examples:

1930s_:"Invitations then arrived from the Moscow and Leningrad orchestras ... which kept Horenstein there for 3 summer months a year from 1934 till 1937. In later interviews, Horenstein recalled this period with great affection ... In Leningrad there was a big community of Mahler and Bruckner fans whereas both composers are not as appreciated in Moscow. When I conducted Mahler's 5th symphony for the first time in Moscow Shostakovich and the Leningrad music writer Ivan ... Solortinsky specially travelled from Leningrad to Moscow. I conducted then the 5th and 9th Mahler and the Bruckner 9th in Leningrad. Shostakovich's adoration for Mahler can be gathered from his own works."

1950s:"Horenstein's next important engagement was a 10 week series of concerts in Venezuela, where the local radio and the Orquesta Sinfonica Venezuela had organised a Festival of Latin American Music, which also included works by Samuel Barber, Charles Ives, Aaron Copland and Roy Harris in addition to all the important South American composers. All the concerts were conducted by Horenstein, and most recorded, but none of this has ever been made commercially available. "_

I agree with Realdealblues as regards *Solti* - it´s the opera recordings that are good in particular (Mozart ...), and some Bartok etc.


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## Mal

DavidA said:


> One very fine conductor was Adrian Boult. Because he looked and sounded so British and Establishment people tended to think he was dull but he could inject life a plenty into music.


Yes! His Elgar is wonderful. I didn't like Elgar's symphonies until I heard his performances. He certainly injected life into those, and I speak as a British prole whose reflex is to dislike the British establishment. Actually, thinking of the BBC symphony orchestra on Naxos, a terrible performance of #1, I think many modern conductors also (rightly!) dislike the British establishment and treat Elgar with irony. Just doesn't work. They are grand symphonies and need to be played grandly, without irony, though avoiding triumphalism. Difficult circle to square, Boult does it.

Beecham may be another "stuffy Brit." who doesn't get enough love - his Delius is wonderful. And maybe Rattle deserves more love, thinking of Kennedy and him in the Elgar violin concerto, that works, so trendy Brits *can* do Elgar as well 

How about Giulini? I loved his performance with Zinman/Chicago in the Chopin Piano Concertos. Maybe, like Solti, his involvement with top American orchestras made him seem somehow not good enough - Americans I think have a tendency to downplay their own orchestras, while Europeans downplay American Orchestras, so Solti and Giulini get slammed from both directions for conducting Chicago and LAPO (who sound as good as anyone, on their day, to me...)


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## Mal

joen_cph said:


> Boult (1889-1983) did a lot of recordings also in the 1970s.


Some (like me) think they are his best, he had a great Indian summer:









Bryan Magee rates Horenstein way above Walter as a Mahler interpreter; he didn't get Mahler at all through Walter, the doors opened when he listened to Klemperer, "but when I found myself listening to the great Mahler symphonies conducted by Jascha Horenstein they sounded to me as beautiful as any music there was." _Confessions of a Philosopher_ p.377.


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## FDR

Not an expert on which conductors are the best (haven't heard nearly enough to form a valid opinion), but I always found Paavo Järvi's concert's to be full of life and highly entertaining be it his rendition's of Mahler or Mendelssohn or some other composer. 

I haven't heard or seen much praise coming his way. He might not be one of the top notch conductors but I'd say that he qualifies for being underrated.


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## AClockworkOrange

*Sir Thomas Beecham* certainly deserves more attention. Given the prevalence of HIP (which I appreciate in addition to modern recordings) and so-called authenticity (this latter term is rather grating to me) Beecham makes for refreshing listening. He has a gift for capturing the spirit and essence of the music he conducts. His Haydn is phenomenal as is his Mozart. His affinity for Sibelius is brilliant and he has a wonderful way with the music of numerous French composers including Berlioz (of which he is my favourite interpreter), Bizet and Gounod amongst others. His Grieg is also noteworthy and his Beethoven - despite his protestations was never less than superb, especially in the Second and Seventh Symphonies.

While he may have had many flaws as a person, his musical abilities are very much evident and his somewhat sarcastic wit is not without it's appeal.

*Leopold Stokowski: *a phenomenal Conductor and arranger. As with Beecham, he focusses on the spirit and intentions of the music with incredible results. I really like his Orchestrations/Arrangements of JS Bach's works for Orchestra as well as his Symphonic Syntheses of Wagner and Mussorgsky.

*Igor Markevitch: *is another underrated Conductor who shines brightly in French and Rissian oeuvre. His Tchaikovsky interpretations made me re-appreciate his Symphonies while his Berlioz, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Stravinsky and Mussorgsky are all outstanding. His approach to overtures, excerpts and dances from Verdi, Rossini, Ravel, Liszt, Ravel, et al. are equally compelling.

*Sir Adrian Boult: * a very consistent Conductor who is often overlooked or taken for granted sadly. His Brahms for me is as close to definitive as one may come with his Schumann not far behind, his JS Bach Brandenburgs are full of life and character and his Wagner is so natural and powerful. All this before his excellent work Championing Elgar, Vaughan Williams and Holst as well as the works of others such as Bax, Arthur Bliss, Hubert Parry and Robert Simpson. A very versatile interpreter.

*Vernon Handley: * a pupil of Boult, his championing of Robert Simpson, Malcolm Arnold, Arnold Bax (these first three especially), Granville Bantock, Charles Stanford and of course Vaughan Williams should be reason enough really. Knowledgable and dedicated, like Boult he placed the music first and displayed relatively little ego.


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## Heck148

Solti is top-notch, one of the greats...He made so many great recordings...heard him conduct Chicago live, many times - always thrilling...many of the best live concerts I've ever heard.
Dohnanyi - ugh....not a fan...did not like how he degraded the great Cleveland sound after the Szell years. [I know Maazel was in there for a bit] but Dohnanyi really killed it, IMO.

Neumann is very good, in my experience [recordings]....and another underrated conductor is Lovro von Matacic - a really great conductor who did not conduct much in the US, hence his unfamiliarity....He scored huge successes with standard masterpieces like LvB "Eroica", and Bruckner #7 - superb recordings that rank right at the top level.

Leinsdorf....aaarrgghh....sorry, definitely 3rd or 4th rank, at best...Heard him live many times as he further ruined the Boston SO during the 60s....Leinsdorf was the archtypical guest conductor, which seemed to be his fate....he had a rather huge repertoire, and an encyclopedic knowledge of of much music, most all of which he conducted with a consistently pedestrian stodginess and lack of vitality. Known as a "Dead Stick".
You always know when a thread about "Best recording of XXXXXX" has hit bottom when the Konwitschny, Hollreiser, Leinsdorf, Swarovsky entries are mentioned....:lol:


----------



## Pugg

[


> COLOR="#FF0000"]Solti is top-notch, one of the greats.[/COLOR]..He made so many great recordings...heard him conduct Chicago live, many times - always thrilling...many of the best live concerts I've ever heard.


Not everyone agrees this you know but, I do.


----------



## Heliogabo

How about Leonard Slatkin? He's consistently good when I come to listen his recordings.


----------



## Heck148

Slatkin can be very good..
2 favorites of mine:

Schuman Sym #10/ StLSO/RCA
and even better - 
Schuman Sym #3 with Chicago, live from 1986 [Archival set [CSO in 20th Century]. This is a fabulous performance of the great American blockbuster, equal to [or maybe surpassing??] Bernstein NYPO I from 1960. Wouldn't want to be without either...


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

Felix Weingartner, Hermann Scherchen, Hermann Abendroth, Charles Munch, Sir John Barbirolli, Eduard Van Beinum, Ernest Ansermet, Paul Kletzki, Rudolf Kempe, Carl Schuricht, Okko Kamu....And if you ever get a chance, attend a concert where JoAnn Falletta is conducting.


----------



## Templeton

Heliogabo said:


> How about Leonard Slatkin? He's consistently good when I come to listen his recordings.


I always think of Slatkin around 9/11 and his performance of Barber's Adagio for Strings, at the London Proms, just after these awful events. Always brings a huge lump to my throat and an event that will remain with me until the end. Very personal:


----------



## amfortas

joen_cph said:


> I agree with Realdealblues as regards *Solti* - it´s the opera recordings that are good in particular (Mozart ...), and some Bartok etc.


Some of Solti's Strauss opera recordings--_Salome, Electra, Rosenkavalier, Frau ohne Schatten, Arabella_--are among the very best.


----------



## Vaneyes

Among the breathing, Litton (w. Bergen PO), Pappano, Harding, Long Yu, Bamert, Levi, Lopez-Cobos, Foster, Robertson, Zagrosek, Knussen, Eotvos, are some who could use more hugs. :tiphat:


----------



## amfortas

Vaneyes said:


> Among the breathing, Litton (w. Bergen PO), Pappano, Harding, Long Yu, Bamert, Levi, Lopez-Cobos, Foster, Robertson, Zagrosek, Knussen, Eotvos, are some who could use more hugs. :tiphat:


Pappano? Maybe here, at TC. Otherwise, I'd say he's doing just fine.


----------



## joen_cph

> You always know when a thread about "Best recording of XXXXXX" has hit bottom when the Konwitschny, Hollreiser, Leinsdorf, Swarovsky entries are mentioned....


Konwitschny did a fine Bruckner 4th with the Gewandhaus. Best recording of his I´ve heard.


----------



## JACE

joen_cph said:


> Konwitschny did a fine Bruckner 4th with the Gewandhaus. Best recording of his I´ve heard.


I'm not particularly familiar with him, but I really like Konwitschny's recording of Brahms' Violin Concerto with Oistrakh and the Dresden Staatskapelle.

Admittedly, it probably has more to do with the Oistrakh (!) than it does with the conductor.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

JACE said:


> I'm not particularly familiar with him, but I really like Konwitschny's recording of Brahms' Violin Concerto with Oistrakh and the Dresden Staatskapele.


Yes, and I like that performance better than any other of Oistrakh's Brahms Concerto readings.


----------



## Pugg

amfortas said:


> Pappano? Maybe here, at TC. Otherwise, I'd say he's doing just fine.


I know for sure that he has raving reviews on about all the things he does.


----------



## Heck148

joen_cph said:


> Konwitschny did a fine Bruckner 4th with the Gewandhaus.


It's not difficult to find better...


----------



## joen_cph

The Scherzo however is very elegant. 
I´d probably take Konwitschny before Böhm/decca, as regards the more famous ones.


----------



## Heck148

joen_cph said:


> The Scherzo however is very elegant.
> I´d probably take Konwitschny before Böhm/decca, as regards the more famous ones.


Bohm isn't a favorite of mine. I'd not select either.


----------



## Orfeo

amfortas said:


> People seem to admire Karajan's early work; it's the later stuff that doesn't get as much love here. Then again, that may be entirely justified.


Well, his Bruckner recordings of the 1970s-early 1980s are generally very well thought of. And let's not forget "Madama Butterfly." So the aforementioned second period cannot be all that bad.


----------



## Strange Magic

Several names from my youth have been mentioned, but here are a few more:

Issay Dobrowen
Jonel Perlea 
Alceo Galliera
Ataulfo Argenta
Paul Paray
Hans Knappertsbusch
Lovro Von Matacic
Artur Rodzinski
William Steinberg
Clemens Krauss
Efrem Kurtz 

Where are they now?


----------



## Vaneyes

amfortas said:


> Pappano? Maybe here, at TC. Otherwise, I'd say he's doing just fine.


As are the others.


----------



## Heck148

Strange Magic said:


> Several names from my youth have been mentioned, but here are a few more:
> [edits]
> Hans Knappertsbusch
> Lovro Von Matacic
> William Steinberg
> Efrem Kurtz


Definitely some heavy hitters here - von Matacic was a very great conductor - he did not conduct in the US, TMK, which is too bad....His recordings of LvB "Eroica" and Bruckner #7, both with CzechPO are amongst the finest ever made. 
Kurtz was most excellent also - a celllist by trade, IIRC - his great Shostakovich #9 with NYPO from 1947 is still the benchmark recording for many. Steinberg was excellent and versatile. saw/heard him many times in extended repertoire.

Knappertsbusch was quite a character....like Munch, he hated to rehearse, liked to wing it at the concerts. Solti recounts in his "Memoirs" how, as a student, he loved to attend Kna's rehearsals and concerts. Kna had tremendous control over the orchestra, and Solti would marvel at the thunderously loud crescendi he would draw forth from his orchestra.


----------



## Heliogabo

Templeton said:


> I always think of Slatkin around 9/11 and his performance of Barber's Adagio for Strings, at the London Proms, just after these awful events. Always brings a huge lump to my throat and an event that will remain with me until the end. Very personal:


Beautiful rendition, I didn't knew it. Thanks for posting.


----------



## waldvogel

Heliogabo said:


> How about Leonard Slatkin? He's consistently good when I come to listen his recordings.


I have the good fortune of being a subscriber and to hear him conduct the Detroit Symphony Orchestra in a hall with some of the best acoustics in the world. Yes, I have been to the Musikverein and the Concertgebouw. He champions a lot of new music, some of it absolutely awful, but at least once or twice a year I get to hear a real modern gem.

Next Friday it will be Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde!


----------



## MarkW

Have not heard her conduct, but Marin Alsop's occasional interviews with Scott Simon on Weekend Edition (NPR) are always fascinating (and never cover the "usual" points about the music they're talking about).

(And, yes, I did live through the Leinsdorf years in Boston, but I do think he made a half dozen or so notable recordings.)


----------



## geralmar

joen_cph said:


> *Boult* (1889-1983) did a lot of recordings also in the 1970s.
> 
> *Horenstein* for example died in 1973. An interesting short biography about him here:
> http://www.classical.net/music/performer/horenstein/index.php
> 
> Examples:
> 
> 1930s_:"Invitations then arrived from the Moscow and Leningrad orchestras ... which kept Horenstein there for 3 summer months a year from 1934 till 1937. In later interviews, Horenstein recalled this period with great affection ... In Leningrad there was a big community of Mahler and Bruckner fans whereas both composers are not as appreciated in Moscow. When I conducted Mahler's 5th symphony for the first time in Moscow Shostakovich and the Leningrad music writer Ivan ... Solortinsky specially travelled from Leningrad to Moscow. I conducted then the 5th and 9th Mahler and the Bruckner 9th in Leningrad. Shostakovich's adoration for Mahler can be gathered from his own works."
> 
> 1950s:"Horenstein's next important engagement was a 10 week series of concerts in Venezuela, where the local radio and the Orquesta Sinfonica Venezuela had organised a Festival of Latin American Music, which also included works by Samuel Barber, Charles Ives, Aaron Copland and Roy Harris in addition to all the important South American composers. All the concerts were conducted by Horenstein, and most recorded, but none of this has ever been made commercially available. "_
> 
> I agree with Realdealblues as regards *Solti* - it´s the opera recordings that are good in particular (Mozart ...), and some Bartok etc.


I once read that Walter Legge wanted Horenstein for EMI after the war; however Horenstein was already under contract to Vox so Legge had to settle for Klemperer.


----------



## DavidA

LOLWUT said:


> Very lucky. Did you ever see Bernstein conduct?


Only saw Bernstein on film.


----------



## EdwardBast

Ivan Fischer! I've heard him only a handful of times conducting live performances. Superb Mahler and Bartok.


----------



## DavidA

Vaneyes said:


> Among the breathing, Litton (w. Bergen PO), *Pappano,* Harding, Long Yu, Bamert, Levi, Lopez-Cobos, Foster, Robertson, Zagrosek, Knussen, Eotvos, are some who could use more hugs. :tiphat:


To me Pappano is a great opera conductor who stands comparison with the greats of the last century.


----------



## rojaba

starthrower said:


> Other than Bernstein, and maybe Levine, many American conductors don't get much mention.


What about Michael Tilson Thomas? Some of his Stravinski and Shostakovich stuff is great. I think he even got a grammy for the former if I remember correctly


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Strange Magic said:


> Several names from my youth have been mentioned, but here are a few more:
> 
> Issay Dobrowen
> Jonel Perlea
> Alceo Galliera
> Ataulfo Argenta
> Paul Paray
> Hans Knappertsbusch
> Lovro Von Matacic
> Artur Rodzinski
> William Steinberg
> Clemens Krauss
> Efrem Kurtz
> 
> *Where are they now?*


living only in posterity, resting six foot under


----------



## Animal the Drummer

Heck148 said:


> Definitely some heavy hitters here - von Matacic was a very great conductor - he did not conduct in the US, TMK, which is too bad....His recordings of LvB "Eroica" and Bruckner #7, both with CzechPO are amongst the finest ever made.
> Kurtz was most excellent also - a celllist by trade, IIRC - his great Shostakovich #9 with NYPO from 1947 is still the benchmark recording for many. Steinberg was excellent and versatile. saw/heard him many times in extended repertoire.
> 
> Knappertsbusch was quite a character....like Munch, he hated to rehearse, liked to wing it at the concerts. Solti recounts in his "Memoirs" how, as a student, he loved to attend Kna's rehearsals and concerts. Kna had tremendous control over the orchestra, and Solti would marvel at the thunderously loud crescendi he would draw forth from his orchestra.


Nice to read those kind words about Lovro von Matacic. He was my grandfather's cousin and yes, biased as I may be, his "Eroica" is top notch. I also enjoy his "Sheherazade", which I have on an LP which still gets the occasional airing.

William Steinberg introduced me as a classical beginner to quite a few of the Beethoven symphonies through his recordings with the Pittsburgh Symphony. I know less of Knappertsbusch's work but do enjoy the "Emperor" he recorded with Clifford Curzon as soloist and the Vienna Philharmonic.


----------



## Pugg

DavidA said:


> To me Pappano is a great opera conductor who stands comparison with the greats of the last century.


I totally agree with this, such a true gentlemen and intelligent musician.


----------



## LouisMasterMusic

amfortas said:


> No one's mentioned Karajan yet?


I'll put it straight as my view. Everything Karajan did has a ''foul odour'' of ''I hate u nasty Jews''. While I'm not offended personally, I never listen to Karajan (and try to even turn him off on the radio) and there are far more interesting and involving conductors in the same or different repertoire. Why should I, as a Jew, have to hear about him when there were (and are) far better musicians?

This is only my opinion and I know people will disagree, but I don't want there to be any narcisstic comments about Jews on this forum.


----------



## LouisMasterMusic

Templeton said:


> Petrenko is definitely somebody who is going places.


He's a great musician, but his comment about female conductors is totally inappropriate, particularly as we have one of the best, THE best, in my view, Marin Alsop. I wasn't expecting such an outburst from Petrenko.


----------



## Vox Gabrieli

This is ridiculous how many of these composers are mentioned daily and somehow manage to be mentioned never.


----------



## Vox Gabrieli

hpowders said:


> Arturo Toscanini.
> 
> Probably because many of the younger posters have never become acquainted with his work.
> 
> He gets little if any respect around these parts.


Italian composers tend to get less attention because they do nothing to the music. Of course, i'm stereotyping, but think broader before you start throwing a dozen names at me as contradicting evidence.


----------



## DavidA

LouisMasterMusic said:


> I'll put it straight as my view. Karajan was a conductor who had a dull approach to music and everything he did has a ''foul odour'' of ''I hate u nasty Jews''. While I'm not offended personally, I never listen to Karajan (and try to even turn him off on the radio) and there are far more interesting and involving conductors in the same or different repertoire. Why should I, as a Jew, have to hear about him when there were (and are) far better musicians? A person proud about being a Nazi? No way! I don't listen to Wagner for the same reason.
> 
> This is only my opinion and I know people will disagree, but I don't want there to be any narcisstic comments about Jews on this forum.


Not offended personally? Your post indicates you are greatly offended! And every right to be as Wagner was a rabid anti-semite and Karajan was a member of the Nazi party. 
However, to call Karajan a 'dull' conductor is rather going against the opinion of those musicians who worked with him and played under him. And was he proud of being a Nazi? It was something that would dog him all his life. History reveals he probably joined for opportunistic reasons rather than ideological - as some Soviet musicians joined Stalin's communist party. Certainly as far as I know Karajan never uttered any anti-semitic remark - if he had it would have been heralded to the housetops. To his credit he did have scores of Mendelssohn's music hidden away when it was banned by the Nazis. And of course, Schwable, who became leader of the BPO under Karajan, was a Jew, which rather puts pay to the theory that Karajan wouldn't have Jews in his orchestra. In all my research I cannot find evidence that Karajan was a Jew hater. A ruthless and unpredictable man (John Culshaw) certainly. But not a Jew hater. After all, his second wife was part Jewish.
It is a problematic field, of course, as there were other musicians far more tainted by the Nazis than Karajan - e.g. Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, for example. Interesting that her past was conveniently forgotten and she was made a DBE. I'm assuming you don't listen to her either? And of course there were many German conductors of the period who conducted for the Nazis more than Karajan. That is not an apologetic for Karajan - just to put the thing into perspective. Just to say some jewish musicians would never work with him - Tucker for one and Perlman certainly. Interesting that Karajan took time during the interval of Aida to nip across the road and hear Perlman play Bach. Karajan would certainly have liked to have worked with him. But his past excluded him from the Jewish violinist's roster of conductors. Menuhin had a different approach - he sought reconciliation by working with Furtwangler. That is not judging who is right and wrong. Every man to his conscience!
I'd also be interested to know how you feel about Jews who conduct Wagner, the arch anti-semite. The list is endless beginning with Levi right down to Solti, Levine, Barenboim. As I have a wife who has the same opinion of Wagner as you, listening to him is for me a Faustian pact!


----------



## dillonp2020

LouisMasterMusic said:


> I'll put it straight as my view. Everything Karajan did has a ''foul odour'' of ''I hate u nasty Jews''. While I'm not offended personally, I never listen to Karajan (and try to even turn him off on the radio) and there are far more interesting and involving conductors in the same or different repertoire. Why should I, as a Jew, have to hear about him when there were (and are) far better musicians?
> 
> This is only my opinion and I know people will disagree, but I don't want there to be any narcisstic comments about Jews on this forum.


"Narcissistic comments about Jews"? Explain this.

You take a real firm stance "as a Jew". My grandmother (also a jew) loved Karajan. She said she looked into his involvement with the Nazi's, and saw that he wasn't involved in anything truly evil i.e planning the final solution. Now if my grandmother, who lost all of her family (including her father) to Auschwitz and other extermination camps, can tolerate Karajan's mistake, I'm sure other jews might be able to as well. 
Is it fair to hold him accountable for the actions of a group he was affiliated with? If so, you should morally be obligated to not listen to Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and many other Russian musicians and composers from the 20th century because of their involvement with the more murderous Soviet regime.


----------



## Judith

DavidA said:


> Not offended personally? Your post indicates you are greatly offended! And every right to be as Wagner was a rabid anti-semite and Karajan was a member of the Nazi party.
> However, to call Karajan a 'dull' conductor is rather going against the opinion of those musicians who worked with him and played under him. And was he proud of being a Nazi? It was something that would dog him all his life. History reveals he probably joined for opportunistic reasons rather than ideological - as some Soviet musicians joined Stalin's communist party. Certainly as far as I know Karajan never uttered any anti-semitic remark - if he had it would have been heralded to the housetops. To his credit he did have scores of Mendelssohn's music hidden away when it was banned by the Nazis. And of course, Schwable, who became leader of the BPO under Karajan, was a Jew, which rather puts pay to the theory that Karajan wouldn't have Jews in his orchestra. In all my research I cannot find evidence that Karajan was a Jew hater. A ruthless and unpredictable man (John Culshaw) certainly. But not a Jew hater. After all, his second wife was part Jewish.
> It is a problematic field, of course, as there were other musicians far more tainted by the Nazis than Karajan - e.g. Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, for example. Interesting that her past was conveniently forgotten and she was made a DBE. I'm assuming you don't listen to her either? And of course there were many German conductors of the period who conducted for the Nazis more than Karajan. That is not an apologetic for Karajan - just to put the thing into perspective. Just to say some jewish musicians would never work with him - Tucker for one and Perlman certainly. Interesting that Karajan took time during the interval of Aida to nip across the road and hear Perlman play Bach. Karajan would certainly have liked to have worked with him. But his past excluded him from the Jewish violinist's roster of conductors. Menuhin had a different approach - he sought reconciliation by working with Furtwangler. That is not judging who is right and wrong. Every man to his conscience!
> I'd also be interested to know how you feel about Jews who conduct Wagner, the arch anti-semite. The list is endless beginning with Levi right down to Solti, Levine, Barenboim. As I have a wife who has the same opinion of Wagner as you, listening to him is for me a Faustian pact!


I'm jewish and like Wagners compositions. He composed some wonderful music and yet was one of the biggest bigots going. Music doesn't come into religion or politics.


----------



## DavidA

Judith said:


> I'm jewish and like Wagners compositions. He composed some wonderful music and yet was one of the biggest bigots going.
> 
> *Music doesn't come into religion or politics.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Sorry? Like's Bach's St Matthew Passion and the welter of religious music that has been written?
> Or Italian patriots shouting Viva Verdi?
> And dear old RW himself was a deeply political animal.
> That doesn't mean we can't enjoy the music of course!


----------



## jim prideaux

Peter Maag springs to mind!


----------



## elgar's ghost

Sir Roger Norrington. Forget TC, he doesn't seem to get much love anywhere at all (not least because of the Vibrato Affair). I have his Beethoven cycle with the London Classical Players which has come in for some real hammer from some quarters over the years - maybe his take on Beethoven is eccentric, but I for one am not offended by that.


----------



## LouisMasterMusic

dillonp2020 said:


> "Narcissistic comments about Jews"? Explain this.
> 
> You take a real firm stance "as a Jew". My grandmother (also a jew) loved Karajan. She said she looked into his involvement with the Nazi's, and saw that he wasn't involved in anything truly evil i.e planning the final solution. Now if my grandmother, who lost all of her family (including her father) to Auschwitz and other extermination camps, can tolerate Karajan's mistake, I'm sure other jews might be able to as well.
> Is it fair to hold him accountable for the actions of a group he was affiliated with? If so, you should morally be obligated to not listen to Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and many other Russian musicians and composers from the 20th century because of their involvement with the more murderous Soviet regime.


I would like to apologise for my outburst about comments regarding Jews. What I meant to say was that if any comments are hurtled against me personally, I will leave the site. I don't want to have to, as I appreciate the site very much and view it several times daily. I'll admit that my post was a bit controversial and I will try not to post such things again. If anyone has a problem, they can private message me at LouisMasterMusic and I will be happy to explain my feelings.


----------



## mmsbls

Let's please refrain from political comments here and discuss _Conductors who don't get much love on TalkClassical_. Any political comments related to classical music should be posted in threads in the Sub-Forum: Politics and Religion in Classical Music.


----------



## wkasimer

Sir Charles Mackerras
Constantin Silvestri
Anatole Fistoulari


----------



## jegreenwood

hpowders said:


> Arturo Toscanini.
> 
> Probably because many of the younger posters have never become acquainted with his work.
> 
> He gets little if any respect around these parts.


New bio by Harvey Sachs reviewed in the NY Times (on line) today. It'll be in next Sunday's Book Review. From the length and the author of the review (Robert Gottlieb), I suspect it may be on the cover.


----------



## Klassik

The recently passed Anton Nanut. The Karajan or Bernstein for cheapskates. Actually, I prefer his Beethoven symphony performances over that of Karajan or Bernstein.


----------



## hpowders

shadowdancer said:


> I do agree with both of your comments:
> Furtwängler and Toscanini pretty much cover opposites sides of the wide spectrum that is called conducting (at least for the 20th century). With both, anything that you hear could be placed somewhere between the two.
> And, indeed, it would be nice if we could see more these names around here.
> 
> As usual, just mho.


I beiieve it's because I'm a senior adrift in a sea of youths. Most kids here probably never heard of this "dynamic duo".


----------



## hpowders

Gabriel Ortiz said:


> Italian composers tend to get less attention because they do nothing to the music. Of course, i'm stereotyping, but think broader before you start throwing a dozen names at me as contradicting evidence.


Sorry, but your post makes no sense. Toscanini was a conductor, not a composer. The rest makes even less sense.

What are you attempting to say?


----------



## hpowders

TxllxT said:


> 小澤 征爾, Ozawa Seiji is a conductor that is a riddle to me. Whatever I hear under his baton, I don't like. It seems TC has the same opinion.
> 
> Vladimir Ashkenazy I do regard as splendid when he plays the piano (all of it), but as a conductor he is so wobbly wavering... He's not often mentioned in TC.
> 
> Charles Dutoit is forgotten on TC, but not by me.


Yeah. It was disappointing when Ozawa got the BSO position with Charles Munch and even Erich Leinsdorf, preceding him.


----------



## Heck148

hpowders said:


> Yeah. It was disappointing when Ozawa got the BSO position with Charles Munch and even Erich Leinsdorf, preceding him.


Ozawa was sort of the "wunderkind" back in the 60s when he first came up - assistant to Bernstein, got all sorts of great guest conducting jobs....made some fine recordings in Chicago - Borodin Polovtsian, Janacek, Pix @ Exhib, Britten Kiddie Guide, etc....but once he got out on his own, things sort of fell apart.....his tenures in Toronto and San Francisco were not outstanding, and with SFSO his inability to fill vacant positions became a problem that plagued him badly in Boston...
The BSO very gradually improved under him after the Leinsdorf low-point, but it never really took off...morale was not good, and Ozawa and the BSO sort of went stale on each other. 
He could be very good at times, but pretty ordinary all too often.


----------



## Merl

Leinsdorf tales some stick on here but he made some excellent recordings. I still rate his Mahler and Beethoven with the BSO highly (esp. Beethoven 9 and Mahler 1). í ½í¸¶


----------



## Merl

Oops, double post!


----------



## Merl

Oops, double post!


----------



## Totenfeier

I'll confess to not knowing a single thing about any of his other work, but Herbert Blomstedt's Mahler 2 with the San Francisco Symphony is a damn fine account, one of my favorites.


----------



## Becca

Totenfeier said:


> I'll confess to not knowing a single thing about any of his other work, but Herbert Blomstedt's Mahler 2 with the San Francisco Symphony is a damn fine account, one of my favorites.


He has done one of the best Nielsen cycles with the SFSO. There are also some very good Hindemith with the same orchestra, and lots of Bruckner with the Dresden & Leipzig orchestras, both of which he has been music director in the past. He regularly guest conducts the Berlin Philharmonic and he has some really interesting intermission discussions which are freely available in the Digital Concert Hall archive.


----------



## hpowders

Merl said:


> Leinsdorf tales some stick on here but he made some excellent recordings. I still rate his Mahler and Beethoven with the BSO highly (esp. Beethoven 9 and Mahler 1). ������


Leinsdorf was an orchestra experimenter. One time he would conduct the Mozart Jupiter with no repeats, then the following season, with all repeats. Sometimes he would play Haydn and Mozart with trills beginning on the upper note, other times, not.

One never knew what Leinsdorf was going to do, which made his appearances with the BSO a lot of fun!!


----------



## Heck148

hpowders said:


> Leinsdorf was an orchestra experimenter. One time he would conduct the Mozart Jupiter with no repeats, then the following season, with all repeats. Sometimes he would play Haydn and Mozart with trills beginning on the upper note, other times, not.!!


Leinsdorf was the stereotype journeyman/guest conductor...he had a large repertoire, most all of which he conducted with a pedestrian stodginess and lack of inspiration. Known as a "dead stick", his tenure with BSO was a real low point in the orchestra's history...when he took over from Munch, the BSO really needed an orchestra builder - a Reiner, Szell, Steinberg type, but they were all heavily committed, so they ended up with Leinsdorf who was, sadly, not the man for the job.

Munch was also famous as a guest conductor, but in a good way - he hated to rehearse, but he always brought lots of spontaneity and enthusiasm to the job. guest conductors do not have a lot of rehearsal time, as a rule, so generating excitement is a big plus.


----------



## Merl

Totenfeier said:


> I'll confess to not knowing a single thing about any of his other work, but Herbert Blomstedt's Mahler 2 with the San Francisco Symphony is a damn fine account, one of my favorites.


As was previously pointed out, Blomstedt's Nielsen and Bruckner discs are excellent but many of his Dresden and particularly San Francisco recordings are oustanding. His Sibelius, Schubert and (especially) Beethoven cycles are some of the best (or THE best for some) available. His Mendelssohn 3&4 are superb too. Hugely underrated conductor.


----------



## Heck148

Merl said:


> As was previously pointed out, Blomstedt's Nielsen and Bruckner discs are excellent but many of his Dresden and particularly San Francisco recordings are oustanding. His Sibelius, Schubert and (especially) Beethoven cycles are some of the best (or THE best for some) available. His Mendelssohn 3&4 are superb too. Hugely underrated conductor.


Haven't heard Blomstedt's Bruckner - but his Sibelius and Nielsen with SFSO are very good. I heard him conduct Nielsen #4 with BSO some years back...very fine performance. Blomstedt seems to pretty consistently produce good results...not flashy, or flamboyant, but solid.


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## Oldhoosierdude

TxllxT said:


> 小澤 征爾, Ozawa Seiji is a conductor that is a riddle to me. Whatever I hear under his baton, I don't like. It seems TC has the same opinion.
> 
> Charles Dutoit is forgotten.


Both of them have top notch recordings of The Planets


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## Oldhoosierdude

Adolph Schultz and Albert Lizzio are downright disrespected around here and it needs to stop!


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## Totenfeier

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Both of them have top notch recordings of The Planets


Yep, Dutoit is certainly not forgotten by me; it's his _Planets_ I reach for every time.


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## Klassik

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Adolph Schultz and Albert Lizzio are downright disrespected around here and it needs to stop!


They would probably get more respect if they were real! :lol: Well, Alfred Scholz was a real person, but Alberto Lizzio was a made up name. Many of those "fake" recordings are actually pretty good though. Hans Swarovsky may have conducted some of them.


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## JAS

Klassik said:


> They would probably get more respect if they were real! :lol: Well, Alfred Scholz was a real person, but Alberto Lizzio was a made up name. Many of those "fake" recordings are actually pretty good though. Hans Swarovsky may have conducted some of them.


It is always interesting to hear about these "fake" recordings, and the lengths that were taken to make them a marketable product.


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## Klassik

JAS said:


> It is always interesting to hear about these "fake" recordings, and the lengths that were taken to make them a marketable product.


Yes, it's very interesting and quite funny in some cases!

As someone who has a number of cheap classical CDs from my father's collection, I will say that there are some real conductors mostly associated with cheap labels who delivered some fine performances. Many of these are/were Eastern European conductors who seemed to know their orchestras very well. Sometimes the sound quality on these CDs hold back the performances, but that's not always true. Of course, there are some duds of performances on cheap labels as well. Sometimes the audio quality is so poor that it's not even fair to judge the conductor's performance.

I quite like Hans Graf's Mozart recordings with the Mozarteum Orchestra of Salzburg on the ultra-bargain LaserLight label. Some of these performances may have ended up on the Capriccio label as well (I think they were both owned by Delta Media at one time). Graf was the conductor with the Houston Symphony after he made these recordings so I'm familiar with his abilities. One thing about "cheap" recordings is that some of them ended up being published on many different labels.


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## Totenfeier

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Adolph Schultz and Albert Lizzio are downright disrespected around here and it needs to stop!


Let us not forget Henry Adolph! I have a Bruckner 4th by him that...cannot be described in words.


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## Klassik

Totenfeier said:


> Let us not forget Henry Adolph! I have a Bruckner 4th by him that...cannot be described in words.


You mean "him." I'm pretty sure Henry Adolph is a pseudonym. Maybe Hans Swarovsky conducted that Bruckner recording, but I'm not sure. Do you like it or hate it?

Perhaps we should build an ultra-budget and/or fake recording Hall of Fame for cheapos that deliver great performances.


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## Totenfeier

Klassik said:


> You mean "him." I'm pretty sure Henry Adolph is a pseudonym. Maybe Hans Swarovsky conducted that Bruckner recording, but I'm not sure. Do you like it or hate it?
> 
> Perhaps we should build an ultra-budget and/or fake recording Hall of Fame for cheapos that deliver great performances.


Yes, "he" is pseudonymous; I was getting into the spirit of the thing. The Bruckner is workmanlike, I'd say. I'm not big on the 4th, anyway.


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## Merl

Klassik said:


> You mean "him."
> 
> Perhaps we should build an ultra-budget and/or fake recording Hall of Fame for cheapos that deliver great performances.


Sounds like a great idea. I've got some Nanut recordings that would fit into that category.


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## Animal the Drummer

I'd like to put a word in for Alceo Galliera as an accompanist. He conducts on two of my most treasured concerto recordings, Grumiaux' first version of the Beethoven concerto and Oistrakh and Fournier in the Brahms Double.


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## Becca

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'd like to put a word in for Alceo Galliera as an accompanist. He conducts on two of my most treasured concerto recordings, Grumiaux' first version of the Beethoven concerto and Oistrakh and Fournier in the Brahms Double.


...and the Maria Callas / Tito Gobbi _Barber of Seville_


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## Larkenfield

Perhaps Eric Leinsdorf, who did my favorite performance of Mendelssohn'a Midsummer Nights Dream. He included a chorus and narrative that I simply love when he recorded it with the Boston Symphony Orchestra years ago.


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## Antiquarian

Claudio Scimone doesn't receive a lot of love here, but I attribute this to the fact that he hasn't recorded as much as a Dutoit. I suspect that this may be because his repertoire was mostly Italian composers? I really enjoyed his interpretation of Clementi's symphonies on Erato, and his work with I Solisti Veneti, particularly his Tartini was my go to recording until I discovered Adrian Chandler with La Serenissima. Perhaps he's too niche?


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## Strange Magic

Has anybody mentioned István Kertész? I like his Dvořák and Brahms symphonies. Like Munch, he was evidently not a big fan of rehearsal but managed to get the best out of his musicians.


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## Heck148

Kertesz was a great conductor...died tragically by accident way before his time...he did great work with the London SO, [his complete Dvorak syms is one of the few complete sets I recommend]. 
He was Cleveland's first choice to succeed Szell, but he unfortunately was killed....

He was known as a "talker" at rehearsals, which usually makes a conductor rather unpopular with musicians, but in Kertesz' case, it did not seem to...


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## Roger Knox

David Zinman, Jose Serebrier and Leonard Slatkin are three conductors who I have heard heard live and found impressive. Also Andrew Davis I have heard many times with the Toronto Symphony -- great in British repertoire.


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## Harrowby Hall

Alright, a name from the past - Malcolm Sargent. Adored by audiences and choral singers but resented by (some) orchestral players. The BBC Proms recalled the 50th anniversary of his death by recreating his 500th Prom programme. He was a friend of Elgar, of Holst, of Vaughan Williams and promoted their music around the world. Although orchestral players may have resented his showmanship he was regarded a technically superb conductor (" ... if you can't play for Sargent, you can't play for anyone ... "). His great strength was choral music - I heard Gerontius under Sargent (and Barbirolli and Boult) his handling of choral forces was unmatched. He did Victorian versions of Messiah with huge choirs and large orchestras - frowned upon today!

I have only seen one reference in this thread to another English conductor - Leopold Stokowski. Possibly not taken seriously in his lifetime by snobbish critics, but now receiving something of a re-appraisal. He was the only Englishman known to have shaken hands with Mickey Mouse.


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## Joe B

A few I can think of which I haven't seen mentioned in the thread that I enjoy:

William Boughton

James DePriest

Daniel Barenboim

Gerard Schwartz

Richard Auldon Clark


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## Pat Fairlea

Roger Knox said:


> David Zinman, Jose Serebrier and Leonard Slatkin are three conductors who I have heard heard live and found impressive. Also Andrew Davis I have heard many times with the Toronto Symphony -- great in British repertoire.


Mostly agree, but I have always found Slatkin to be disappointing. Just too cautious and unimaginative.


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## David Phillips

Harrowby Hall said:


> Alright, a name from the past - Malcolm Sargent. Adored by audiences and choral singers but resented by (some) orchestral players. The BBC Proms recalled the 50th anniversary of his death by recreating his 500th Prom programme. He was a friend of Elgar, of Holst, of Vaughan Williams and promoted their music around the world. Although orchestral players may have resented his showmanship he was regarded a technically superb conductor (" ... if you can't play for Sargent, you can't play for anyone ... "). His great strength was choral music - I heard Gerontius under Sargent (and Barbirolli and Boult) his handling of choral forces was unmatched. He did Victorian versions of Messiah with huge choirs and large orchestras - frowned upon today!
> 
> I have only seen one reference in this thread to another English conductor - Leopold Stokowski. Possibly not taken seriously in his lifetime by snobbish critics, but now receiving something of a re-appraisal. He was the only Englishman known to have shaken hands with Mickey Mouse.


Sargent blotted his copybook with orchestral musicians in the 1930s when proposals for awarding pensions to players were made. He was against the idea, suggesting that musicians would not play as well if they had a pension to look forward to when they retired! It was a stupid thing to say and orchestra members never forgave him.


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## Polyphemus

Quite a few conductors seem destined to to be considered of the second rank. Some that spring to mind are, Andrew Davis, Andrew Litton, Gerard Schwartz, Vernon Handley etc..
Two who have been on the peripheryof the first rank but who never seemed to make that final surge to superstardom were Ozawa and Tilson Thomas.
Both over the years given us superb recordingsrs have never quite achieved the status they deserved.


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## geralmar

Third rank; but I like him: Jonel Perlea.


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## Becca

Polyphemus said:


> Quite a few conductors seem destined to to be considered of the second rank. Some that spring to mind are, Andrew Davis, Andrew Litton, Gerard Schwartz, Vernon Handley etc..
> Two who have been on the peripheryof the first rank but who never seemed to make that final surge to superstardom were Ozawa and Tilson Thomas.
> Both over the years given us superb recordingsrs have never quite achieved the status they deserved.


- Personally I think that Ozawa is overrated, his years at the BSO were not exactly their best years.
- Vernon Handley has mostly been known for his championing of British music and might have been rated higher had he been known for a broader repertoire.
- Another conductor who I believe should be in the top rank is Herbert Blomstedt, still going strong at age 90.


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## Merl

Becca said:


> - Another conductor who I believe should be in the top rank is Herbert Blomstedt, still going strong at age 90.


Blomstedt rarely makes a duff recording. Totally agree.


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## hpowders

Merl said:


> Blomstedt rarely makes a duff recording. Totally agree.


His Nielsen set with the SF Symphony is a fine one.


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## Merl

hpowders said:


> His Nielsen set with the SF Symphony is a fine one.


Nearly everything he did with the SFSO was fine and his Dresden Beethoven cycle was excellent and ballsy. There's some pieces I don't like on this one but not a duff account........


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## Gordontrek

I see Istvan Kertesz's name pop up now and again. Admittedly I haven't heard very many of his recordings, but what I have listened to has been very nice. Some excellent Brahms.
He did a recording of Mozart's Requiem in Vienna that was really quite outstanding. The label on this album suggests it's a lower-end interpretation and recording than it actually is. I actually consider this one of the better recordings of the piece.


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## Heck148

Kertesz is quite highly regarded as a conductor, IMO....He made some great recordings with London Symphony....a great Dvorak Symphony set and some terrific Kodaly, just to mention a few....


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## Johnnie Burgess

Heck148 said:


> Kertesz is quite highly regarded as a conductor, IMO....He made some great recordings with London Symphony....a great Dvorak Symphony set and some terrific Kodaly, just to mention a few....


His Dvorak set was very good. Too bad he died so young.


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## Heck148

Johnnie Burgess said:


> His Dvorak set was very good. Too bad he died so young.


yup, it still is!! his untimely death = terrible loss....he was slated to succeed Szell in Cleveland, IIRC....that could have been really dynamite!!


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