# Why did Bach recycle music?



## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

I'm listening to the 3rd Keyboard concerto BWV 1054 right now, and it's nothing but a transcription(if that's the right word in this context) of his concerto for violin BWV 1042. I'm sure there is a harpsichord version. Most of his concerti are essentially the same [strike]music[/strike] tune but for different solo instrument(s). Why did he do that?


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Don't you like them?

The violin concertos in E major and a minor appear both as violin and keyboard concerto. And I've heard the f minor one played by a wind instrument (I don't remember which one)
He also made a keyboard concerto from a Brandenburg concerto. And you can listen to concerto for four pianos as... a four violin concerto by Vivaldi.

I really enjoy them all.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

I do like them, but other than JSB, I haven't come across a composer who made multiple versions of many concerti. I'm wondering why he did that. Wouldn't people/kings have got bored with his music?  There's the odd composer who has orchestrated a chamber piece, or 'chamberised' an orchestral work, but that's something different.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

It was normal during baroque era for composers to re-use their own music.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Handel said:


> It was normal during baroque era for composers to re-use their own music.


Could you please provide examples of other (baroque or any era) composers who did this? (No, Vivaldi as per Stravinsky does not count. )


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2007)

Surely you mean _Pergolesi_ as per Stravinsky?

And "normal" means pick a composer, any composer. He probably recycled. And they borrowed from each other. As in Vivaldi as per J.S. Bach.


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

opus67 said:


> Could you please provide examples of other (baroque or any era) composers who did this? (No, Vivaldi as per Stravinsky does not count. )


Handel is a very well known example music recycling. For example, all of his arias from Apollo e Dafne, except one, were re-used later in his operas.

You want something more evident?

1.
From Apollo e Dafne:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...22/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_022/105-4058868-6407602

From Rinaldo: 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...29/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_029/105-4058868-6407602

2.
From Apollo eDafne:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...09/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_009/105-4058868-6407602

From Rinaldo:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...19/ref=mu_sam_wma_002_019/105-4058868-6407602

3. 
From Il triomfo del Tempo e del Disinganno

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...16/ref=mu_sam_wma_002_016/105-4058868-6407602

From Rinaldo

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-...12/ref=mu_sam_wma_002_012/105-4058868-6407602


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

opus67 said:


> I'm listening to the 3rd Keyboard concerto BWV 1054 right now, and it's nothing but a transcription(if that's the right word in this context) of his concerto for violin BWV 1042. I'm sure there is a harpsichord version. Most of his concerti are essentially the same [strike]music[/strike] tune but for different solo instrument(s). Why did he do that?


A book on Bach's borrowings exist: http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Borrower-Norman-Carrell/dp/0313222053


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

If you think about the sheer volume of work Bach produced, and the incredible demand he was under, it's little wonder he recycled a bit, just to save work.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

zlya said:


> If you think about the sheer volume of work Bach produced, and the incredible demand he was under, it's little wonder he recycled a bit, just to save work.


And we can nowadays enjoy the same work with different instrumental colour; and that applies also to what he did to the Vivaldi concerto.

And as we know, he wasn't the last recycler...

One
Two


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for the links, Handel. I know very very little of opera, even the Classical and Romantic ones, so it's not surprising I have missed these from the Baroque.


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## Andrew (Jul 20, 2007)

opus67 said:


> I'm listening to the 3rd Keyboard concerto BWV 1054 right now, and it's nothing but a transcription(if that's the right word in this context) of his concerto for violin BWV 1042. I'm sure there is a harpsichord version. Most of his concerti are essentially the same [strike]music[/strike] tune but for different solo instrument(s). Why did he do that?


Some musicologists and Bach experts claim that most of Bach's harpsichord concertos are arrangements of formery composed concertos written for other instruments (violin or oboe). In some cases we have these concertos, in some cases we don't have them and musicologists try to reconstruct them.

Bach wrote most of his concertos when he was "Capellmeister" (head of music) in Köthen (from 1717 to 1723). In 1723 he moved to Leipzig where he became cantor at St. Thomas. In 1729 he became leader of the "Collegium Musicum" formerly founded by Georg Philipp Telemann. During this time harpsichord concertos came into vogue. So he rearranged the formerly written concertos and played them together with some of his sons and the Collegium Musicum, usually at a place called "Cafe Zimmermann" (a coffee house).

As Handel wrote, it was a common practice to reuse formerly written music, even when it was composed by *other* musicians. During the Baroque period (and earlier periods, too) this was not esteemed as a theft (as nowadays), but as a *honour*.


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

Bach had a tight scedule as a harpsichordist and added frequently to his program harpsichord versions of concertos, even of other composer's concertos! His ornamentation of Marcello's oboe concerto is today considered a standard and I think a few Vivaldi concertos survived because of this habit. Many of Bach's own concertos only survived because of this (they are often called the reconstructed concertos), such as oboe d'amore concerto in A, oboe concerto in d & violin-oboe duo concerto. I don't know about the violin concertos but maybe they also survived this way and that would explain these double-versions. In the classical era Bach went into languish and became forgotten you know, though remembered by Beethoven and restored by Mendelsohn later, much of his stuff was lost.


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## Andrew (Jul 20, 2007)

Saturnus said:


> In the classical era Bach went into languish and became forgotten you know, though remembered by Beethoven and restored by Mendelsohn later, much of his stuff was lost.


The young Mozart visited Johann Christian Bach, the youngest son of Johann Sebastian, when he was in London. So there is no doubt that Mozart also knew some pieces by Johann Sebastian Bach. Later on he arranged some preludes and fugues from the "Well-Tempered Clavier" for string trio.

The problem is that most of Bach's works were not printed during his lifetime. So the scores only survived as copies hand-written by his family or his pupils. Bach was well-known as an exceptional harpsichord and organ player, therefore during his lifetime only pieces for these instruments were printed:

- six Partitas for harpsichord (first part of "Clavier-Übung")
- Italian Concerto and French Ouverture (second part of "Clavier-Übung")
- Prelude and Fugue in E flat major, choral arrangements and four duets (third part of "Clavier-Übung")
- Goldberg Variations (fourth part of "Clavier-Übung")
- six choral arrangements ("Schübler")
- canonic variations on the German christmas carol "Vom Himmel hoch"

As far as I know, no other works were printed before his death. The printing of the "Art of Fugue" (which today is also considered to be a harpsichord work) was supervised and finished by his sons.


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

It's funny: upon listening to Handel's 2nd "concerto a due cori", I started singing "Lift up your head, O ye gates!" from _Messiah_ and realised a few seconds later that he had used the same music for both pieces. I'm not sure which came first, though.

And it made me think of this old thread


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## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

Morigan said:


> It's funny: upon listening to Handel's 2nd "concerto a due cori", I started singing "Lift up your head, O ye gates!" from _Messiah_ and realised a few seconds later that he had used the same music for both pieces. I'm not sure which came first, though.
> 
> And it made me think of this old thread


Lift up was composed before the concerto (c1749)


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## Beethoven (Oct 19, 2007)

opus67 said:


> Why did Bach recycle music?


To save the enviroment.

It's sort of obvious


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## Michael Ferris (Oct 25, 2007)

The term "recylcing" is very interesting. But to truly understand why a musician during this time copied a lot of the themes in various pieces and transcribed them for various instruments, one has to look at the piece through a composer's eyes and the time in which something was written. The baroque period was a time where music contained a lot of variation filled with ornamental beauty. It was the time at which the "perfection" of the renaissance became imperfect, this being a reason for its beauty. The term Baroque comes from a Portugese word meaning an "imperfect pearl". It is not perfect, but its imperfection lies its beauty. Many musicians tried several pieces and "reguritated" them again in a different form, using various instruments and stuctures sometimes as a matter of personal necessity as well as experimenation. It is even a common practice in the Jazz and Reggae today, although less extreme.
From another perspective, it may have also been the case that Bach had been contracted to write a piece for a certain event, something unique. For this reason, he may have also written a similar piece to another to make it something very special for a certain performance and did not have the time to think of a new theme or, in the case of various instruments, to adapt the piece to a certain instrument. 
Composers in general and especially during that time tended to use many like-themes in a lot of their pieces not only as a matter of fondness for them, but also as a type of "trademarking" and "advertisement." If you analyse Bach pieces and even John Dowland, you will see that most of the time their pieces end with the same cadence, this being their trademark. In addition, they must have been quite fond of it. When you hear an ending cadence using the inverted 6/4 chord, it is for instance surely Bach.
This topic could be written on for hours without coming to a conclusion, for I am sure there were even more reasons than these alone. Yet, the examples brought forth serve as a good example.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for the informative post, Michael. 

Regarding the cadence, I think I have noticed that quite a few times. (Not as a 6/4 chord, but just as a familiar tune I heard in another work.) In fact, during the initial stages of my listening to European classical music, I used to differentiate Baroque and Classical works with what I called their "signature notes."


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Well AC/DC and Status Quo made a career out of it.............


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