# Composers' Lists of Greatest Composers



## pjang23

Since we've all shown each other our own lists, how about this: What do you think the composers' personal lists of greatest composers were?

For example, Wagner's list would be something like this:
1) Wagner 
2) Beethoven
3) Liszt
4) Berlioz
.
.
.
Infinity) Mendelssohn


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## tdc

^:lol: 

I think Wagner quite liked Bach and Mozart too. 

For J.S. Bach maybe:

1)Buxtehude
2)Vivaldi
3)Bohm
4)Reincken
5)Frescobaldi
5)Froberger
6)J.C. Bach
7)Telemann
8)Pachelbel
9)Lully


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## Sid James

Everyone seemed to like Bach, at least those who came after Mendelssohn's revival of his music.

Well, judging from what I have read, here are some compositions and composers that other composers admired (off the top of my head- these things are pretty well known) -

*Bruckner *- a big Wagner fan (everyone here probably knows that - he dedicated his 3rd symphony to the man), but Bruckner also studied Beethoven's late quartets when composing his string quintet & the music of Palestrina was a huge influence on Bruckner's choral music in particular. Not to mention ALL of the then current organ repertoire - including J. S. Bach - Bruckner was the greatest organist and improviser on organ of his generation.

*Schubert & Wagner* both greatly admired Beethoven's String Quartet op. 131

*Wagner* also admired Weber, who was a great influence on him. When Weber's body was reinterred for burial, Wagner gave the oration at the graveside.

*Tchaikovsky* was a huge fan of Mozart, even wrote the "Mozartiana" suite in his honour, and the _Rococo Variations_ for cello and orchestra are also of this style.

*Beethoven* was also a huge fan of Mozart (writing a number of variations for cello and piano based on his opera tunes). At his deathbed, Beethoven expressed great admiration for Handel.

As for composers who thought others work was pus, Ravel, Debussy and most other French composers at the time hated everything German (or Austrian!!!), as that was the fashionable thing, and Ives thought that Mozart's and Chopin's music was for "cissies" although he greatly admired Beethoven (quoting the 5th symphony in many works) as well as Dvorak...


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## tdc

Andre said:


> As for composers who thought others work was pus, Ravel, Debussy and most other French composers at the time hated everything German (or Austrian!!!), as that was the fashionable thing,


From what I have read - this is incorrect, especially for Ravel:

"Ravel's preferred way of teaching would be to have a conversation with his students and demonstrate his points at the piano. He was rigorous and demanding in teaching counterpoint and fugue, as he revered Johann Sebastian Bach without reservation. But in all other areas, he considered Mozart the ideal, with the perfect balance between "classical symmetry and the element of surprise", and with works of clarity, perfect craftsmanship, and measured amounts of lyricism. Often Ravel would challenge a student with "What would Mozart do?" and then ask the student to invent his own solution"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Ravel

"He had considerable admiration for other 19th century masters such as Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, and *Schubert*."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Ravel

It does however also say Ravel wasnt huge on Beethoven or Wagner.

---
Debussy however:

'one of Debussy's biggest influences was Richard Wagner. According to Pierre Louys, Debussy "did not see 'what anyone can do beyond Tristan."'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Debussy

This does seem to be about the only major German influence on Debussy.


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## Sid James

tdc said:


> It does however also say Ravel wasnt huge on Beethoven or Wagner.


Yes, specifically I know Ravel hated Beethoven's music.



tdc said:


> ---
> Debussy however:
> 
> 'one of Debussy's biggest influences was Richard Wagner. According to Pierre Louys, Debussy "did not see 'what anyone can do beyond Tristan."'
> 
> This does seem to be about the only major German influence on Debussy.


I read that he later disowned Wagner's influence, particularly when composing Pelleas & Melisande he tried to consciously do this. But I also recently read that Debussy hated Mahler & Schoenberg...


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## tdc

Andre said:


> Yes, specifically I know Ravel hated Beethoven's music.
> 
> I read that he later disowned Wagner's influence, particularly when composing Pelleas & Melisande he tried to consciously do this. But I also recently read that Debussy hated Mahler & Schoenberg...


^Maybe, but there is a big difference between that and saying they _hated_ everything German. Ravel clearly loved Bach, Mozart, and Schubert. Do you have a link(s) to verify what you're saying on Debussy and Wagner?


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## elgar's ghost

I always imagined Wagner's list would go something like this:

1/ Wagner
2/ Wagner
3/ Wagner
4/ Wagner
5/ Wagner


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## peeyaj

Schubert's list would be..

1. Beethoven

2. Beethoven

3. Mozart

4. Salieri (his teacher)

5. C.P.E Bach


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## Huilunsoittaja

Glazunov's List:
_
"I wanna be like all of them at the same time!"
_
1. Borodin/Rimsky-Korskakov/Balakirev/Liszt/Wagner/Tchaikovsky/Saint-Saens/Brahms/Mendelssohn/Schumann/Beethoven/Mozart/Bach/Corelli/Palestrina

no 2nd tier.

:lol:

Prokofiev's list:

1. Prokofiev
2. Prokofiev
3. Prokofiev
4. Prokofiev
4. Debussy, R. Strauss, Stravinsky Prokofiev


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## Webernite

I'm going to take this more as "who they were influenced by" than as "who they thought were best."

*Brahms*: Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Schütz, Couperin, Buxtehude, Haydn, Wagner, Mendelssohn, Handel.

*Schumann*: Bach, Beethoven (quite heavily infuenced by "early" Beethoven in some respects), Mendelssohn, Schubert, Hummel, Weber, Mozart.

*Beethoven*: Haydn, Mozart, Handel, Bach, Hummel.

*Wagner*: Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Chopin, Liszt, Berlioz, Weber, various opera composers.

*Mahler*: Beethoven, Bruckner, Bach, Wagner.

*Schoenberg*: Wagner, Brahms, Mozart, Beethoven, Mahler, Schubert, Reger, Webern, Berg, Debussy, Stravinsky.

*Prokofiev*: Tchaikovsky, Haydn, Mozart, Rachmaninov, Wagner, Rimsky-Korsakov, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Strauss.

*Liszt*: Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Berlioz, Bach, Mozart.

*Chopin*: Mozart, Bach, Hummel, Scarlatti, Clementi, Bellini, Rossini.

*Mendelssohn*: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven (particularly late Beethoven), Weber, Haydn.


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## peeyaj

Schumann was also heavily influenced by Schubert.. I seem to remember reading, that when Schumann have ''discovered'' Schubert's Ninth, he expressed to Clara that he's wish was to write that kind of symphony.. And he have written his symphony (Symphony no. 2) in the same key: C major.


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## Poppin' Fresh

pjang23 said:


> Since we've all shown each other our own lists, how about this: What do you think the composers' personal lists of greatest composers were?
> 
> For example, Wagner's list would be something like this:
> 1) Wagner
> 2) Beethoven
> 3) Liszt
> 4) Berlioz
> .
> .
> .
> Infinity) Mendelssohn


Heh, well I wouldn't go as far as to say Wagner disliked Mendelssohn _that_ much. He had mixed feelings about his music, certainly, but there are recorded statements of him saying that he often found himself humming themes from Mendelssohn's compositions, and flat out called the _Hebrides_ Overture a masterpiece.

Aside from his well known favorite composers and influences (Beethoven, Mozart, Weber) he was also quite passionate over works by composers like Bellini, Marschner, and Halévy.


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## Edward Elgar

Interesting. I'm not doing a top ten, but I'll guess who liked who.

I know Schoenberg's favorite composer was Brahms, but I'll bet he also liked Wagner.
I bet Stravinsky liked Mussorgsky and Rimsky-Korsakov (obviously!)
Ligeti would have liked Bartók.
Boulez would have liked Schoenberg.


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## Webernite

Edward Elgar said:


> Boulez would have liked Schoenberg.


In his younger years, Boulez actually attacked Schoenberg for being too conservative (he favoured Webern). But he later took it back and, as you probably know, now regularly conducts works by Schoenberg and even Mahler.


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## Nix

Beethoven's:

1. Handel
2. Mozart
3. Haydn
4. Bach
5. Cherubini


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## elgar's ghost

Webernite, I have to ask - how could Prokofiev be influenced by DSCH? He was already out of his home country for some time and had established his own mature style by the time Shosters had his first works published. And although I'm sure there was a mutual admiration I can't quite understand how Schoenberg could have been influenced by his two students either - have I missed something?


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## Webernite

elgars ghost said:


> Webernite, I have to ask - how could Prokofiev be influenced by DSCH? He was already out of his home country for some time and had established his own mature style by the time Shosters had his first works published. And although I'm sure there was a mutual admiration I can't quite understand how Schoenberg could have been influenced by his two students either - have I missed something?


Well, I stand by what I wrote, but I admit I was trying to be thought-provoking and to not simply state the obvious.

I think it is pretty widely recognized by scholars that Berg and Webern's experiments had a considerable influence on their teacher, as well as vice versa. You have to keep in mind that Webern was already a competent composer when he began taking lessons from Schoenberg: he wasn't there to learn basic harmony and how to play _Für Elise_. Berg was less competent at first, but by the end of his studies (which lasted six years), he too was a solid composer. They must have shared countless musical ideas. Schoenberg himself wrote in his diary: "The obstinacy with which my students tread on my heels, as they strive to outbid what I offer, *puts me in danger of becoming their imitator*." He was driven on by his students, particularly Webern, and particularly during the 1910s, his most experimental period. And don't forget that he outlived them both.

As for Prokofiev and Shostakovich, all I can say is that they _sound_ to me as though they influenced each other. Of course Prokofiev died before some of Shostakovich's greatest works were written, and of course, as you say, Prokofiev had a distinct style before Shostakovich became widely known. But Prokofiev's style was always developing, and the two composers were well aware of each other and heard many of each other's works.

Edit: Sorry for the long post.


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## elgar's ghost

Thanks, Webernite. I knew Berg and Webern were pushing the envelope but I really had no idea that it was actually a catalyst for Schoenberg's own inspiration.


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## Xaltotun

I think it hasn't been mentioned yet that the thing between Wagner and Bruckner wasn't one-sided: Wagner thought highly of Bruckner's music as well. I think I've read a Wagner quote that went something like "I know of only one composer who is as good as Beethoven, and that is Bruckner". So Bruckner would certainly be on Wagner's list (although it's pretty certain that Wagner himself occupies post #1 there).


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## Sid James

Interesting thread. I really like how although her favourite composer is Glazunov, Huilunsoittaja actually relishes the idea that the guy might not have been that original. I'm not highly familiar with Glazunov to properly judge his music, but it's refreshing to see that someone's "idol" is not that for the usual progressivist cliches and dogmas (eg. someone saying words to the effect of "I love Stravinsky/Schoenberg/Bartok etc because they were so innovative, groundbreaking & original").



tdc said:


> ...Do you have a link(s) to verify what you're saying on Debussy and Wagner?


I read in various books that Debussy was was really turned on by Wagner's music when he was younger but later consciously tried to move away from his influence. I'll have to dig up the books I read this in & maybe quote them partially. The tv series Classical Destinations also discussed how Debussy saw himself as a "French Musician," that was how he signed his letters and manuscripts (If my memory is correct?). As far as his political ideologies were concerned, the man was clearly a Nationalist, but of course one would be hard pressed to describe his music in that way (unlike someone like say d'Indy whose music was definitely more typically folkish & Nationalist).

Another thing I read was that when he was a student in Rome, Debussy saw the aged Liszt play in a piano recital. This must have undoubtedly made an impact on the much younger man...


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## Moraviac

Tchaikowsky was always outspoken. I know he liked Bach and Mozart, and Beethoven, but not some of the stuff in his last years, like the last string quartets. I know Tchaikowsky didn't think much of the Mighty Handful, except maybe Rimski-Korsakov and Balakirev.

I get the impression that most romantic and later composers were at least positive over Bach and Mozart, and I suppose also Beethoven. It would be the same top three as nowadays, I think. Other highly regarded composers like Wagner and Brahms were much more controversial, I think. Often you were either a musical innovator like Wagner , or you would appreciate the more classic line like Brahms.


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## Sid James

Brahms is often stereotyped as an opponent of Bruckner, yet some information I came across in liner notes in a cd of the latter's 6th symphony give a lie to this. It says that at the premiere of some of the movements of Bruckner's 6th, Brahms was applauding vigorously. I think that it was mainly people like the critic Eduard Hanslick who had a major problem with Bruckner. I don't think that other composers were as vehement as him in their criticism. I've also read (on this forum, I think) that Mahler, Wolf and Hans Rott were huge admirers of the older Bruckner...


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## kanonathena

Sibelius named Bartok as the best composer in 20th century.


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## Edward Elgar

Webernite said:


> In his younger years, Boulez actually attacked Schoenberg for being too conservative (he favoured Webern).


I didn't know that! Schoenberg a conservative? That's like calling the Dalai Lama an action hero!


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## pjang23

Edward Elgar said:


> I didn't know that! Schoenberg a conservative? That's like calling the Dalai Lama an action hero!


Hehe, actually it is true. I believe Schoenberg even thought himself as conservative. Didn't help that a certain group began peddling his way as the only way.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Andre said:


> Interesting thread. I really like how although her favourite composer is Glazunov, Huilunsoittaja actually relishes the idea that the guy might not have been that original. I'm not highly familiar with Glazunov to properly judge his music, but it's refreshing to see that someone's "idol" is not that for the usual progressivist cliches and dogmas (eg. someone saying words to the effect of "I love Stravinsky/Schoenberg/Bartok etc because they were so innovative, groundbreaking & original").


It is only _I_ who am allowed to make fun of him. :tiphat: 

But you are right. I'm not that kind of person that loves Revolutionaries just for the sake that they were revolutionaries. I didn't fall in love with Prokofiev _because_ he was a revolutionary or original, he just happen to be. I love him for his high sense of aesthetic within the dissonances. Nor did I really care about being progressive/conservative/originality when I took a look at Glazunov's music for the first time. And it all has taught me still not to care.


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## emiellucifuge

kanonathena said:


> Sibelius named Bartok as the best composer in 20th century.


Kind of weird as Sibelius only witnessed about 50% of the century


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## ScipioAfricanus

Bruckner's favorites would be
1. Wagner
2. Bach
3. Beethoven
4. Schubert


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## Webernite

Bruckner was also influenced by Renaissance polyphonists, like Palestrina.


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## 1648

Andre said:


> Brahms is often stereotyped as an opponent of Bruckner, yet some information I came across in liner notes in a cd of the latter's 6th symphony give a lie to this. It says that at the premiere of some of the movements of Bruckner's 6th, Brahms was applauding vigorously. I think that it was mainly people like the critic Eduard Hanslick who had a major problem with Bruckner.


 Bruckner first came to Vienna at the suggestion of Eduard Hanslick, who had praised his organ playing and a few choral compositions, as far as I know there was no bad blood between them before Bruckner presented his symphonies. As for the relationship with Brahms, the Hamburg master was notoriously grumpy and is said to have disapproved of Bruckner's theoretical teachings; Bruckner on the other hand considered Brahms' symphonies facile and mannered. No doubt the press played a huge part in fueling possible animosities and misunderstandings between the two, though towards the end of their lives they seem to have developed a sort of mutual respect for each other. Brahms arranged a performance of Bruckner's Te Deum (the last time Bruckner saw this work in concert) and supposedly attended his burial in secret.

And Debussy greatly admired Mozart, Bach and - though he disapproved of his occasionally crude means of expression - Beethoven.

EDIT: Here's another list for you guys.

*Leoš Janáček:* Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Puccini, Dvořák, Berg; possibly also Bruckner


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## martijn

Hello, I'm new here. This is an interesting topic, but as someone who has done quite some research in this field, I must say there are quite some errors here. 

Among composers, Mozart, Bach and Beethoven have always been the most popular composers. If you were to hold a poll among composers, probably Mozart would end as number 1, with Beethoven a close second. Here some favorite composers of great composers:

Haydn considered Mozart the greatest composer he knew. He said he learned the most from C.Ph.E Bach. He considered Beethoven very talented, but his music awkward as well.

Beethoven considered Mozart the greatest composer, till he learned to know Händel better, than Händel became his favorite. He also admired Haydn and Bach.

Von Weber’s favorite composer was Mozart. He wasn’t too fond of Beethoven.

Rossini’s idol was Mozart. He also valued Bach very highly, as well as Haydn and Beethoven (though he preferred the early Beethoven).

Schubert idolized Mozart. In his youth he had some reservations about Beethoven, but later in his life that completely changed. He also worshipped Haydn and Hummel.

Berlioz’s idols were Beethoven and Gluck. He was ambigious about Mozart, whom he called the greatest musician in the world, but of whom he could also be critical. Haydn he didn’t consider very important. He even strongly disliked Bach and Händel.

Schumann particularly admired Beethoven and Bach, as well as Mozart and Schubert. Mendelssohn he called “The Mozart of the 19th century”, and he also championed Chopin. He was less positive about Wagner. He didn’t see the great value of Haydn.

In his youth, Mendelssohn considered Beethoven the greatest composer. In later life he moved a little more in the direction of Bach and Mozart. He also worshipped Händel and Haydn. He didn’t share the same enthousiasm for his contemporaries.

Liszt’s great hero was Beethoven, followed by Schubert. He revered Bach as well, mainly later in his life I believe. He also admired Mozart and Von Weber.

In opposite to what people say here, Wagner was more modest than one would expect. He said he wasn’t even allowed to tie Beethoven’s shoe laces, for example. Wagner’s remarks are a bit confusing. Normally he’s most associated with Beethoven, but at the same time he said of Mozart that “the most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts”, and about Bach: “the greatest miracle in all music”, and about Liszt that he was the greatest musician in the world. His disapproval of Mendelssohn is notorious, but don’t forget he once sent his first symphony to Mendelssohn, who lost it (which may explain Wagner’s later attitude to Mendelssohn). But he called Mendelssohn nevertheless the greatest purely musical talent since Mozart. Wagner made also very cautious remarks about Schumann.

Chopin’s heroes were Mozart and Bach. He also liked Haydn and Hummel. His opinions of Mendelssohn are contradicting. He was full of disdain for Berlioz. In opposite to what is often said, he didn’t dislike Beethoven at all, though it was clear Chopin was of a different temper.

Brahms’ favorite composer was not Beethoven, but Mozart, though he deeply admired Beethoven as well. Next to Mozart, Bach was his favorite. He also worshipped Schubert, Haydn, Mendelssohn, Schumann and Dvorak, and even Wagner. 

Mozart was also Tchaikovsky’s idol. He admired but didn’t like Beethoven, considered Bach good, but no genius, and disliked Brahms fullheartedly, though he admired him for his sincerity. He preferred Grieg instead.

Also Grieg considered Mozart unattainable, even compared to Bach, Beethoven and Wagner. Chopin is often mentioned as Grieg’s favorite composer, but I found no evidence for that, I think it’s due to the fact they both wrote mainly for the piano. Grieg loved Verdi, Schumann, Mendelssohn and Dvorak as well. He saw Richard Strauss’ great gifts, but didn’t like what he did with it.

Bruckner’s idol was Wagner. He was extremely humile about his own achievements compared to other composers, mainly to Wagner.

Dvorak considered Mozart the greatest of all composers. He admired Beethoven and Schubert very much, as well as Brahms and Wagner.

Saint-Saëns main heroes were Mozart, Bach and Beethoven, Haydn as well. He admired Wagner as well, and had some reservations about Berlioz, though he recognized his genius as well.

The principal heroes of Mahler were Wagner and Beethoven. He also deeply admired Mozart (he died after murmuring “Mozartl”, little Mozart) and Bach.

The favorite composer of Debussy was Chopin. Bach was a god to him, as was Mozart. He considered Wagner and Beethoven geniuses, but could also be very critical of them. He was ambigious about Liszt and Berlioz, and rather negative about Mendelssohn and Schubert. He was inspired by the Russians, but felt little sympathy for Tchaikovsky.

Richard Strauss’s god was Mozart. He admired Schubert, Haydn, Wagner, Beethoven and Bach as well. He disliked atonal composers.

Schoenberg named Mozart and Bach as his principal teachers, the latter he considered the greatest of them all. Next came Beethoven and Brahms. His tastes were mainly Teutonic, he also had a high opinion of Mendelssohn and Wagner. He could be caustic about Stravinsky.

From his early life on, Stravinsky championed Mozart and Tchaikovsky, while he disliked Beethoven. Later he learned to appreciate Beethoven, and he revered Bach. He once named Schubert as his favorite composer. He had less positive things to say about Wagner, Berlioz, was partial to Brahms, and considered Schubert far more interesting than Schumann. Besides them he loved Rossini, Mendelssohn and Von Weber.

Prokofiev considered, maybe surprisingly, Haydn as his favorite composer. Tchaikovsky he admired as well.
Bartok’s early love was Beethoven. Other composers he admired were Bach, Debussy, Mozart, Richard Strauss. He disliked Shostakovich.

The favorites of Sibelius were Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. He also loved Mendelssohn, whom he considered with Mozart a greater master of orchestration that Strauss or Stravinsky.

Ravel regarded Mozart as the most perfect of all composers. He could be rather harsh about Beethoven, though he didn´t hate him, as is suggested here. Like Debussy, he loved the Russians (but not Tchaikovsky), as well as Schubert and Mendelssohn.

Vaughan Williams had Bach on top of his list. He had mixed feelings about Beethoven and preferred Haydn to Mozart.
Hindemith considered Bach the greatest composer and deeply admired Mozart.

Shostakovich´s tastes were eclectic, as he put it, he liked everything from “Bach to Offenbach”. He was fond of the classics, and in his youth he considered Mahler the greatest composer of all. Among Russians, he venerated Moussorgsky and Tchaikovsky, and considered Stravinsky the greatest composer of the 20th century.

Britten’s idol was Mozart. He loved Schubert a lot as well, and admired Bach. In later life, he developped a disliked for Brahms and Beethoven.

Messiaen’s favorites were Debussy, Wagner, Mozart and Berlioz. Except for Mozart, he considered the classics and the baroque composers as composers who knew nothing about rhythm. 

Boulez’s favorite composer I think was Webern.

Ligeti admired Brahms, considered Mozart’s operas the greatest of all, and Cosi Fan Tutte the most beautiful music there was, and saw the operas of Verdi as close to the level of Mozart’s.
Did I miss something yet? ;-)


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## pjang23

Wow, that's amazing!  Thanks for your contribution!


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## tdc

I recently read an article about Schumann in a classical music magazine called _Gramophone_ (Sept. 2010 issue) that stated - Debussy, Ravel, Tchaikovsky and Britten 'tended to reject Beethoven' and 'detested Brahms', yet all loved Schumann.


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## Nix

Interesting how Bartok formulated an opinion about Shostakovich when he died while Shosti's career was still young... I wonder if his thoughts would have changed if he had lived to hear his later masterpieces. The two composers can be similar in sound, though I suppose Bartok is more intellectual and creative.


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## Webernite

Nice post, but there are some small changes I would make:

Schumann championed Chopin, but was critical of some of his music
Mendelssohn always liked Bach; not just later in life
Chopin _did_ make disparaging comments about Beethoven
It's going a bit far to say that Brahms "worshipped" Dvorak and Mendelssohn
Stravinsky was not partial to Brahms at all
Stravinsky _was_ partial to Schumann, but considered Schubert the greater composer
Tchaikovsky too was very fond of Schumann
Mahler and Schumann practically deified Bach
Liszt was very important to Bartok, even if he didn't always like to admit it


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## Norse

Prokofiev's favorite composer was supposedly Haydn. 
Ravel's is said to be Mozart.

Edit: For some reason I posted this without looking very closely at the thread, but I can see there nothing new about what I posted


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## martijn

I'm open to criticism on my post, I can't agree with most what you wrote however:



Webernite said:


> Nice post, but there are some small changes I would make:
> 
> Schumann championed Chopin, but was critical of some of his music
> 
> This may be, though I don't know to which comments of Schumann on Chopin you are referring. Overall Schumann was definitely very positive about Chopin, writing "heads off, gentlemen, a genius" as a comment on Chopin's variations on La ci darem la mano. He also said that alone Chopin opened, developped and ended his work with dissonances, and in Carnaval, he wrote a piece that was dedicated to Chopin. Chopin on the other hand really disliked Schumann, and didn't consider "Carnaval" music at all.
> 
> Mendelssohn always liked Bach; not just later in life
> 
> This I didn't say, Mendelssohn definitely always loved Bach. Just in an early letter he refers to Beethoven as the greatest composer of all. In later life, according to an acquintance of Mendelssohn, Mendelssohn's models were rather Bach and Mozart, than Beethoven.
> 
> Chopin _did_ make disparaging comments about Beethoven
> 
> This is overemphasized in literature. Chopin is reported to have had some reservations about some of Beethoven's piano music, though his pupils sometimes contradicted each other. He also said that Beethoven sometimes turned his back to eternal principles, while Mozart never did it. But on the other hand, if you read his letters, you eager Chopin is to visit the Beethoven monument, and in one letter he writes "Mozart, Hummel, Beethoven, the masters of us all". That says enough, doesn't it?
> 
> It's going a bit far to say that Brahms "worshipped" Dvorak and Mendelssohn
> 
> Oh, he definitely did. Brahms called Mendelssohn "the last great master", and he was also very fond of Dvorak. He said that Dvorak used melodies as secondary material that Brahms himself would be happy to have used as a primary melody. Of both masters he had a lot of sheet music, as much as he had of Schumann.
> 
> Stravinsky was not partial to Brahms at all
> 
> Stravinsky didn't consider Brahms a bit composer, but it wasn't his favorite one.
> Stravinsky _was_ partial to Schumann, but considered Schubert the greater composer
> 
> I didn't deny this, I don't know to which extent Stravinsky was partial to Schumann (maybe you can tell me), I just know he preferred Schubert.
> Tchaikovsky too was very fond of Schumann
> 
> That I didn't deny, this is true.
> Mahler and Schumann practically deified Bach
> 
> Schumann did, and where did I deny it? Mahler also worshipped Bach, as I wrote. But Mahler's two greatest heroes were definitely Beethoven and Wagner, this he has explicitly stated in one of his letters.
> Liszt was very important to Bartok, even if he didn't always like to admit it


This is true, though Bartok could also be critical of Liszt indeed.


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## Webernite

I think we basically agree. Regarding Brahms's view of Dvorak and Mendelssohn, it's true he liked much of their music, but he criticised it too. Dvorak, in particular, couldn't possibly be described as one of Brahms's "great composers" in the sense of Schubert, Haydn, etc. Regarding Stravinsky's view of Schumann, all I know is that he said (in _Dialogues_) that he had "a personal weakness" for Schumann's music.


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## martijn

Now that I think of it, I also can remember that I've read that Stravinsky didn't like Schumann's symphonies too much. But they can't be considered his best works after all.

It's true Brahms could be critical of Mendelssohn at times, but some composers could be critical of their idols anyway, like when Bernstein said that the orchestration of his favorite composer Beethoven was sometimes downright bad. 

If I were to give a list of Brahms' his favorites I would guess he would come with Schubert and Haydn above Dvorak indeed. But one shouldn't underestimate his admiration for Dvorak. I think there are a few reasons that may cause that we would underestimate that, the fact that Brahms was very famous in his own time, while Dvorak was for a long time unknown to the greater public, the fact that nowadays, Brahms in general is held in higher regard than Dvorak (which I don't always find fair), and the fact that they lived in the same time, and it's easier to worship someone of the past than someone who is one's contemporary. But I checked Brahms his letters, and there you read things about Dvorak like: "Dvorak possess the very best of what a musician must have". He may have given him advice something, but from what I've read, I think Brahms considered Dvorak as a pure talent to be superior to himself. But then again, Brahms was a very modest man.

From your name I can make up, your own favorite is Webern, or not? What about his favorite composer? I know he liked the classics, and as far as I know, especially Beethoven, is that right?


----------



## 1648

Webern wasn't a man of words (unlike Berg, easily the most sweeping writer out of the famous Viennese troika), but I wouldn't be surprised if Bach and Beethoven were at the top of the list, alongside guys like Okeghem, Obrecht, Josquin and Isaac.


----------



## Webernite

Webern isn't my absolute favorite, but he's certainly up there. I'm not sure what his view of Beethoven was, but as 1684 suggests, he was influenced by Renaissance music. He was also strongly influenced by Schoenberg and Mahler, and had considerable experience conducting Bach.


----------



## martijn

He was really fond of Beethoven's ninth. I found a quote by Webern: "If we understand philosophy, we must turn to the Greeks, and if we want to understand music, we must turn to Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven, and the other great masters of the Austro-Germnan tradition".


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

Norse said:


> Prokofiev's favorite composer was supposedly Haydn.


Well, possibly, but I've also heard it another way that Prokofiev was "like" Haydn, in mentality maybe (?).
Prokofiev's real favorite composers were Debussy and Richard Strauss, no doubt about it.


----------



## martijn

Still he seems to have said it: "Mstislav Rostropovich knew Prokofiev very well, and once asked him to name his favorite composer. "Haydn", he replied".


----------



## norman bates

martijn said:


> Boulez's favorite composer I think was Webern.


at first, but later for what i've read he preferred Berg, because he says that Webern's music is too simple.

Peter Warlock's favorites were Delius and Bernard Van Dieren. Oh, and Delius hated Mozart (""if a man tells me he likes Mozart, I know in advance that he is a bad musician")


----------



## Huilunsoittaja

martijn said:


> Still he seems to have said it: "Mstislav Rostropovich knew Prokofiev very well, and once asked him to name his favorite composer. "Haydn", he replied".


Oh I see, he was out of his Enfante Terrible years then, not surprised now.


----------



## World Violist

Rubbra's list (random, yes, but I feel comfortable with this):

1) Bach
2) Sibelius
3) Mahler
4) Palestrina

And maybe Kalevi Aho's? Can't put these in order, but somewhere anyway...

Mahler
Shostakovich
Sibelius (c'mon, he's a Finn)
Bach
Ravel (with orchestration like his, it's obvious)
Mussorgsky


----------



## World Violist

Andre said:


> Brahms is often stereotyped as an opponent of Bruckner, yet some information I came across in liner notes in a cd of the latter's 6th symphony give a lie to this. It says that at the premiere of some of the movements of Bruckner's 6th, Brahms was applauding vigorously. I think that it was mainly people like the critic Eduard Hanslick who had a major problem with Bruckner. I don't think that other composers were as vehement as him in their criticism. I've also read (on this forum, I think) that Mahler, Wolf and Hans Rott were huge admirers of the older Bruckner...


I've definitely read that Brahms actually did like some of the stuff of "the other side." Brahms actually hated the whole idea of two "sides" to this "war of Romantics"; good music was good music to him... which I suppose was why he liked Bruckner 6. I also seem to remember Brahms owning a manuscript to a Wagner opera or two (Meistersinger? Can't remember, I think it was that), though he collected manuscripts of everything.


----------



## martijn

norman bates said:


> at first, but later for what i've read he preferred Berg, because he says that Webern's music is too simple.
> 
> Boulez is really a very funny guy.
> 
> Peter Warlock's favorites were Delius and Bernard Van Dieren. Oh, and Delius hated Mozart (""if a man tells me he likes Mozart, I know in advance that he is a bad musician")


Then there are a lot of famous bad musicians, if you read the list I posted ;-)


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## violadude

I'm surprised no one here has mentioned Brahm's love of Johann Strauss. They were good friends too.


----------



## Carpenoctem

martijn said:


> Hello, I'm new here. This is an interesting topic, but as someone who has done quite some research in this field, I must say there are quite some errors here.
> 
> Among composers, Mozart, Bach and Beethoven have always been the most popular composers. If you were to hold a poll among composers, probably Mozart would end as number 1, with Beethoven a close second. Here some favorite composers of great composers:
> 
> Haydn considered Mozart the greatest composer he knew. He said he learned the most from C.Ph.E Bach. He considered Beethoven very talented, but his music awkward as well.
> 
> Beethoven considered Mozart the greatest composer, till he learned to know Händel better, than Händel became his favorite. He also admired Haydn and Bach.
> 
> Von Weber's favorite composer was Mozart. He wasn't too fond of Beethoven.
> 
> Rossini's idol was Mozart. He also valued Bach very highly, as well as Haydn and Beethoven (though he preferred the early Beethoven).
> 
> Schubert idolized Mozart. In his youth he had some reservations about Beethoven, but later in his life that completely changed. He also worshipped Haydn and Hummel.
> 
> Berlioz's idols were Beethoven and Gluck. He was ambigious about Mozart, whom he called the greatest musician in the world, but of whom he could also be critical. Haydn he didn't consider very important. He even strongly disliked Bach and Händel.
> 
> Schumann particularly admired Beethoven and Bach, as well as Mozart and Schubert. Mendelssohn he called "The Mozart of the 19th century", and he also championed Chopin. He was less positive about Wagner. He didn't see the great value of Haydn.
> 
> In his youth, Mendelssohn considered Beethoven the greatest composer. In later life he moved a little more in the direction of Bach and Mozart. He also worshipped Händel and Haydn. He didn't share the same enthousiasm for his contemporaries.
> 
> Liszt's great hero was Beethoven, followed by Schubert. He revered Bach as well, mainly later in his life I believe. He also admired Mozart and Von Weber.
> 
> In opposite to what people say here, Wagner was more modest than one would expect. He said he wasn't even allowed to tie Beethoven's shoe laces, for example. Wagner's remarks are a bit confusing. Normally he's most associated with Beethoven, but at the same time he said of Mozart that "the most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts", and about Bach: "the greatest miracle in all music", and about Liszt that he was the greatest musician in the world. His disapproval of Mendelssohn is notorious, but don't forget he once sent his first symphony to Mendelssohn, who lost it (which may explain Wagner's later attitude to Mendelssohn). But he called Mendelssohn nevertheless the greatest purely musical talent since Mozart. Wagner made also very cautious remarks about Schumann.
> 
> Chopin's heroes were Mozart and Bach. He also liked Haydn and Hummel. His opinions of Mendelssohn are contradicting. He was full of disdain for Berlioz. In opposite to what is often said, he didn't dislike Beethoven at all, though it was clear Chopin was of a different temper.
> 
> Brahms' favorite composer was not Beethoven, but Mozart, though he deeply admired Beethoven as well. Next to Mozart, Bach was his favorite. He also worshipped Schubert, Haydn, Mendelssohn, Schumann and Dvorak, and even Wagner.
> 
> Mozart was also Tchaikovsky's idol. He admired but didn't like Beethoven, considered Bach good, but no genius, and disliked Brahms fullheartedly, though he admired him for his sincerity. He preferred Grieg instead.
> 
> Also Grieg considered Mozart unattainable, even compared to Bach, Beethoven and Wagner. Chopin is often mentioned as Grieg's favorite composer, but I found no evidence for that, I think it's due to the fact they both wrote mainly for the piano. Grieg loved Verdi, Schumann, Mendelssohn and Dvorak as well. He saw Richard Strauss' great gifts, but didn't like what he did with it.
> 
> Bruckner's idol was Wagner. He was extremely humile about his own achievements compared to other composers, mainly to Wagner.
> 
> Dvorak considered Mozart the greatest of all composers. He admired Beethoven and Schubert very much, as well as Brahms and Wagner.
> 
> Saint-Saëns main heroes were Mozart, Bach and Beethoven, Haydn as well. He admired Wagner as well, and had some reservations about Berlioz, though he recognized his genius as well.
> 
> The principal heroes of Mahler were Wagner and Beethoven. He also deeply admired Mozart (he died after murmuring "Mozartl", little Mozart) and Bach.
> 
> The favorite composer of Debussy was Chopin. Bach was a god to him, as was Mozart. He considered Wagner and Beethoven geniuses, but could also be very critical of them. He was ambigious about Liszt and Berlioz, and rather negative about Mendelssohn and Schubert. He was inspired by the Russians, but felt little sympathy for Tchaikovsky.
> 
> Richard Strauss's god was Mozart. He admired Schubert, Haydn, Wagner, Beethoven and Bach as well. He disliked atonal composers.
> 
> Schoenberg named Mozart and Bach as his principal teachers, the latter he considered the greatest of them all. Next came Beethoven and Brahms. His tastes were mainly Teutonic, he also had a high opinion of Mendelssohn and Wagner. He could be caustic about Stravinsky.
> 
> From his early life on, Stravinsky championed Mozart and Tchaikovsky, while he disliked Beethoven. Later he learned to appreciate Beethoven, and he revered Bach. He once named Schubert as his favorite composer. He had less positive things to say about Wagner, Berlioz, was partial to Brahms, and considered Schubert far more interesting than Schumann. Besides them he loved Rossini, Mendelssohn and Von Weber.
> 
> Prokofiev considered, maybe surprisingly, Haydn as his favorite composer. Tchaikovsky he admired as well.
> Bartok's early love was Beethoven. Other composers he admired were Bach, Debussy, Mozart, Richard Strauss. He disliked Shostakovich.
> 
> The favorites of Sibelius were Bach, Mozart and Beethoven. He also loved Mendelssohn, whom he considered with Mozart a greater master of orchestration that Strauss or Stravinsky.
> 
> Ravel regarded Mozart as the most perfect of all composers. He could be rather harsh about Beethoven, though he didn´t hate him, as is suggested here. Like Debussy, he loved the Russians (but not Tchaikovsky), as well as Schubert and Mendelssohn.
> 
> Vaughan Williams had Bach on top of his list. He had mixed feelings about Beethoven and preferred Haydn to Mozart.
> Hindemith considered Bach the greatest composer and deeply admired Mozart.
> 
> Shostakovich´s tastes were eclectic, as he put it, he liked everything from "Bach to Offenbach". He was fond of the classics, and in his youth he considered Mahler the greatest composer of all. Among Russians, he venerated Moussorgsky and Tchaikovsky, and considered Stravinsky the greatest composer of the 20th century.
> 
> Britten's idol was Mozart. He loved Schubert a lot as well, and admired Bach. In later life, he developped a disliked for Brahms and Beethoven.
> 
> Messiaen's favorites were Debussy, Wagner, Mozart and Berlioz. Except for Mozart, he considered the classics and the baroque composers as composers who knew nothing about rhythm.
> 
> Boulez's favorite composer I think was Webern.
> 
> Ligeti admired Brahms, considered Mozart's operas the greatest of all, and Cosi Fan Tutte the most beautiful music there was, and saw the operas of Verdi as close to the level of Mozart's.
> Did I miss something yet? ;-)


Great post, I actually didn't know Strauss disliked atonal composers and that Wagner thought Mendelssohn was the greatest musical talent since Mozart.

I'd also like to add that there were some evidence of the alleged meeting between Beethoven and Schubert. Beethoven said that there was :"A divine spark in Schubert". I'm not 100% sure if that happened though.


----------



## KenOC

Going back to the idea of the OP, here's Beethoven's list of his favorite composers:

1 - Beethoven, symphonies
2 - Beethoven, various concertos
3 - Beethoven, piano sonatas
4 - Beethoven, string quartets

etc.


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## clavichorder

tdc said:


> 6)J.C. Bach


I have read the J.S. had a few not so nice things to say about his son Carl Phillip's music("his music fades, like Prussian Blue"), but did he actually like the music of his youngest composer son, J.C., that much? It seems to me that J.S. was down on the gallante style, and that J.C.(the most rebellious of them all) was further into it than C.P.E. If anything, of his sons, I would think he would most appreciate Wilhelm Friedemann and maybe some of Johann Christoph Friedrich's. They were more contrapuntal.


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## clavichorder

Webernite said:


> Bruckner was also influenced by Renaissance polyphonists, like Palestrina.


Not to mention, the sacred music of Michael Haydn.


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## KenOC

Clavichorder, Sebastian Bach had something pretty negative to say about the Galante movement, can't remember what it was. I'll try to find it!


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## tdc

clavichorder said:


> I have read the J.S. had a few not so nice things to say about his son Carl Phillip's music("his music fades, like Prussian Blue"), but did he actually like the music of his youngest composer son, J.C., that much? It seems to me that J.S. was down on the gallante style, and that J.C.(the most rebellious of them all) was further into it than C.P.E. If anything, of his sons, I would think he would most appreciate Wilhelm Friedemann and maybe some of Johann Christoph Friedrich's. They were more contrapuntal.


Yes, you are right, in that post I was actually referring to Johann Christoph Bach.


----------



## clavichorder

tdc said:


> Yes, you are right, in that post I was actually referring to Johann Christoph Bach.


I tend to think of him as JCF Bach(Christoph Friedrich), so as to eliminate any confusion. JC(Johann Christian), is probably his least favorite of his sons, musically speaking and possibly personally based on the choices he made in life(converting to Catholicism, moving to London, drinking and partying too much). Ironically, Christian also enjoyed the most widespread popularity of the Bach sons, and far surpassed his father in that regard. JCF, the third youngest, was pretty loyal, upstanding and a gifted organist, who applied contrapuntal principals very nicely, without being such a difficult and eccentric personality like the oldest brother and true prodigal son, Wilhelm Friedemann. No, JCF could hold a job, and in his case, he simply couldn't get rid of his post, as the court at a place that is pronounced Book-a-burg(I can't think of how its spelled) liked him so much they payed him extra money to stay.


----------



## clavichorder

KenOC said:


> Clavichorder, Sebastian Bach had something pretty negative to say about the Galante movement, can't remember what it was. I'll try to find it!


Was it pertaining to, in Sebastian's words, "music of superficial structure?"


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## neoshredder

Yngwie Malmsteen
1. Bach
2. Vivaldi
3. Beethoven
4. Paganini


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## tdc

clavichorder said:


> I tend to think of him as JCF Bach(Christoph Friedrich), so as to eliminate any confusion. JC(Johann Christian), is probably his least favorite of his sons, musically speaking and possibly personally based on the choices he made in life(converting to Catholicism, moving to London, drinking and partying too much). Ironically, Christian also enjoyed the most widespread popularity of the Bach sons, and far surpassed his father in that regard. JCF, the third youngest, was pretty loyal, upstanding and a gifted organist, who applied contrapuntal principals very nicely, without being such a difficult and eccentric personality like the oldest brother and true prodigal son, Wilhelm Friedemann. No, JCF could hold a job, and in his case, he simply couldn't get rid of his post, as the court at a place that is pronounced Book-a-burg(I can't think of how its spelled) liked him so much they payed him extra money to stay.


With such similar names in this family it is easy to get confused, I actually was not referring to any of J.S. Bach's sons but to his eldest brother Johann Christoph Bach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christoph_Bach_(1671–1721)


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## mikey

Beethoven was very fond of Clementi. He cites the clear formal structures of the Sonatas.
A few composers cite Paganini as a great composer. Not sure how? Maybe his performances WERE that good he could convince anyone of anything.


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## ahammel

Percy Grainger really did maintain a list of his favourite composers, of which I believe there are copies extant. He had a numerical rating scheme which gave points for beauty, originality, and so forth. I'm not sure who topped the list, but Grainger himself was equal ninth.

Ol' Percy couldn't have touched sanity with a long pole, though.


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## peeyaj

Repost:

*What Britten thought of other composers:*

Brahms: In his younger days, Britten liked Brahms, but then reacted against his music.

Beethoven: Ambivalent, but respectful.

Mozart, Schubert: "loved without qualification."

Bach, Dowland, Purcell: Britten "liked" them.

Mahler: Britten learned to appreciate Mahler after hearing his Fifth Symphony. He went to a concert to hear a "fashionable" concerto, expecting to be bored by the preceding Mahler symphony, but it turned out to be the other way around.

Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Ravel: Britten liked them, especially for their skill in orchestration.

Stravinsky: Britten liked his early works, but didn't like the Paris "chic air" that was associated with his later works.

Shostakovich: Britten was friends with him, and loved his works.



> The composers whose works, other than his own, he most often played were Mozart and Schubert; the latter, in Murray Perahia's view, was Britten's greatest idol.[222] As a boy and young man, Britten had intensely admired Brahms, but his admiration waned to nothing, and Brahms seldom featured in his repertory


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## KenOC

Beethoven sniping at Rossini:

"Rossini is a talented and a melodious composer. His music suits the frivolous and sensuous spirit of the times, and his productivity is such that he needs only as many weeks as the Germans do years to write an opera."

"Rossini would have become a great composer if his teacher had frequently applied some blows ad posteriora."

"The Bohemians are born musicians. The Italians ought to take them as models. What have they to show for their famous conservatories? Behold their idol, Rossini! If Dame Fortune had not given him a pretty talent and amiable melodies by the bushel, what he learned at school would have brought him nothing but potatoes for his big belly."


----------



## KenOC

Tchaikovsky on various composers:

On The Mighty Handful: "...a sad phenomenon... The young Petersburg composers are very gifted, but they are all impregnated with the most horrible presumptuousness and a purely amateur conviction of their superiority to all other musicians in the universe."

On Rimsky-Korsakov: The "one exception" who had discovered "that the doctrines preached by this circle had no sound basis, that their mockery of the schools and the classical masters, their denial of authority and of the masterpieces, was nothing but ignorance."

On Cui: "Cui is a gifted amateur. His music is not original, but graceful and elegant; it is too coquettish, made up so to speak. At first it pleases, but soon satiates us." "...he sails in shallow waters.'

On Borodin: "[He] also possesses talent, a very great talent, which however has come to nothing... He has less taste than Cui, and his technique is so poor that he cannot write a bar without assistance."

On Mussorgsky: "...used up" and liking "what is coarse, unpolished, and ugly... [but] his gifts are perhaps the most remarkable of all."

On Balakirev: "[He did] great harm...it was he who ruined Korsakov's early career by assuring him he had no need to study."

On Berlioz: "[The Damnation of Faust is] one of the miracles of art. Several times I had to suppress my sobs." "On the whole his musical nature does not attract me, and I cannot agree with the ugliness of some of his harmonies and modulations, but sometimes he reaches extraordinary heights."

On Wagner: "[He has] extraordinary gifts", but is a "symphonist" lost on the opera stage where "the music loses all power of expression." "Maybe the Ring is a great composition, but I have never heard anything so boring and so drawn out as this."

On Brahms: Some of the nicer stuff anyway. "He is certainly a great musician, even a master, but his mastery overwhelms his inspiration." A personal note: "He is very sympathetic and I like his honesty and open-mindedness."


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## starry

tdc said:


> ^:lol:
> 
> I think Wagner quite liked Bach and Mozart too.
> 
> For J.S. Bach maybe:
> 
> 1)Buxtehude
> 2)Vivaldi
> 3)Bohm
> 4)Reincken
> 5)Frescobaldi
> 5)Froberger
> 6)J.C. Bach
> 7)Telemann
> 8)Pachelbel
> 9)Lully


This early post in the thread which omitted Handel had me wondering. After all JS Bach DID admire Handel and tried to meet him twice I believe, once walking very many miles to do so.


----------



## tdc

starry said:


> This early post in the thread which omitted Handel had me wondering. After all JS Bach DID admire Handel and tried to meet him twice I believe, once walking very many miles to do so.


You might be right, though I wasn't aware of that. Gardiner's documentary on Bach's life suggests that Bach was less than impressed by Handel's operas of the time, (well less than impressed by opera in general) and to my knowledge Bach never transcribed any of Handel's works, though in addition to transcriptions of Telemann and Vivaldi he also transcribed works by Sachsen-Weimar, Marcello and Torelli who could also be added to this speculative list.


----------



## spradlig

@KenOC : I like your "personal note" by Tchaikovsky on Brahms. It will probably surprise some people. I read somewhere that they went drinking together once and got on famously. Have you heard this story?



KenOC said:


> Tchaikovsky on various composers:
> 
> On The Mighty Handful: "...a sad phenomenon... The young Petersburg composers are very gifted, but they are all impregnated with the most horrible presumptuousness and a purely amateur conviction of their superiority to all other musicians in the universe."
> 
> On Rimsky-Korsakov: The "one exception" who had discovered "that the doctrines preached by this circle had no sound basis, that their mockery of the schools and the classical masters, their denial of authority and of the masterpieces, was nothing but ignorance."
> 
> On Cui: "Cui is a gifted amateur. His music is not original, but graceful and elegant; it is too coquettish, made up so to speak. At first it pleases, but soon satiates us." "...he sails in shallow waters.'
> 
> On Borodin: "[He] also possesses talent, a very great talent, which however has come to nothing... He has less taste than Cui, and his technique is so poor that he cannot write a bar without assistance."
> 
> On Mussorgsky: "...used up" and liking "what is coarse, unpolished, and ugly... [but] his gifts are perhaps the most remarkable of all."
> 
> On Balakirev: "[He did] great harm...it was he who ruined Korsakov's early career by assuring him he had no need to study."
> 
> On Berlioz: "[The Damnation of Faust is] one of the miracles of art. Several times I had to suppress my sobs." "On the whole his musical nature does not attract me, and I cannot agree with the ugliness of some of his harmonies and modulations, but sometimes he reaches extraordinary heights."
> 
> On Wagner: "[He has] extraordinary gifts", but is a "symphonist" lost on the opera stage where "the music loses all power of expression." "Maybe the Ring is a great composition, but I have never heard anything so boring and so drawn out as this."
> 
> On Brahms: Some of the nicer stuff anyway. "He is certainly a great musician, even a master, but his mastery overwhelms his inspiration." A personal note: "He is very sympathetic and I like his honesty and open-mindedness."


----------



## malvinrisan

I've read Messiaen loved these composers:

Debussy, Wagner, Mozart, Chopin, Berlioz, Mussorgsky, Stravinsky and Monteverdi.


----------



## Crystal

Beethoven's list:

1. Beethoven 
2. Beethoven 
3. Beethoven 
4. Beethoven 
5. Beethoven


----------



## Crystal

Liszt's list:

1. Paganini
2. Liszt 
3. Chopin


----------



## Tallisman

elgars ghost said:


> I always imagined Wagner's list would go something like this:
> 
> 1/ Wagner
> 2/ Wagner
> 3/ Wagner
> 4/ Wagner
> 5/ Wagner


That might be Bruckner's, too.


----------



## Fabulin

I put together a chart of opinions of various composers concerning whom they considered admirable masters, idols, heroes, and favorites, and tried to reason *an order* for each of the composers, based on said opinions. The lists were usually very short and definitely, repeat, definitely not exhaustive in the context of the sum of music the composers in question were aware of, but I wanted to try anyway, and compile lists of whom did they single out from the crowd in their correspondence, criticism, and interviews.

The composers, _whose opinions were compiled_, were:
Bach,	Haydn,	Mozart,	Beethoven,	von Weber,	Rossini,	Schubert,	Berlioz,	Chopin,	Mendelssohn,	Schumann,	Wagner,	Liszt,	Bruckner,	Brahms,	Saint-Saens,	Grieg,	Tchaikovsky,	Rimsky,	Janacek,	Mahler,	Debussy,	Sibelius,	Ravel,	Puccini,	R. Strauss,	Glazunov,	Schönberg, Vaughan Williams,	Bartok,	Stravinsky,	Prokofiev,	Shostakovich,	Britten,	Ligeti,	Messiaen,	Williams, Deutscher (A.)

The results are not very kind to anyone outside the common practice period, but I've got to say I kind of love the resulting top 10.

I used the following function to make the result consider the number of votes a bit, and make sure that Bach doesn't vote Buxtehude into the top 10 on his own :lol: =(1/AveragePosition[SUP]2[/SUP])*NumberOfVotes

Results:

PositionNameVotesAverage Position1Mozart331,792Bach282,573Beethoven283,114Haydn153,85Schubert93,446Wagner124,427Tchaikovsky114,728Mendelssohn105,89Debussy4410Haendel54,6


----------



## pianozach

Fabulin said:


> I put together a chart of opinions of various composers concerning whom they considered admirable masters, idols, heroes, and favorites, and tried to reason *an order* for each of the composers, based on said opinions. The lists were usually very short and definitely, repeat, definitely not exhaustive in the context of the sum of music the composers in question were aware of, but I wanted to try anyway, and compile lists of whom did they single out from the crowd in their correspondence, criticism, and interviews.
> 
> The composers, _whose opinions were compiled_, were:
> Bach,	Haydn,	Mozart,	Beethoven,	von Weber,	Rossini,	Schubert,	Berlioz,	Chopin,	Mendelssohn,	Schumann,	Wagner,	Liszt,	Bruckner,	Brahms,	Saint-Saens,	Grieg,	Tchaikovsky,	Rimsky,	Janacek,	Mahler,	Debussy,	Sibelius,	Ravel,	Puccini,	R. Strauss,	Glazunov,	Schönberg, Vaughan Williams,	Bartok,	Stravinsky,	Prokofiev,	Shostakovich,	Britten,	Ligeti,	Messiaen,	Williams, Deutscher (A.)
> 
> The results are not very kind to anyone outside the common practice period, but I've got to say I kind of love the resulting top 10.
> 
> I used the following function to make the result consider the number of votes a bit, and make sure that Bach doesn't vote Buxtehude into the top 10 on his own :lol: =(1/AveragePosition[SUP]2[/SUP])*NumberOfVotes
> 
> Results:
> 
> PositionNameVotesAverage Position1Mozart331,792Bach282,573Beethoven283,114Haydn153,85Schubert93,446Wagner124,427Tchaikovsky114,728Mendelssohn105,89Debussy4410Haendel54,6


Interesting, and certainly a great list of great composers.

But it will be hopelessly skewed toward earlier composers, of course. Bach and Mozart cannot pick composers that premiered works after they passed on. Mozart would never have picked Wagner . . .

But interesting nonetheless.


----------



## Fabulin

pianozach said:


> Interesting, and certainly a great list of great composers.
> 
> But it will be hopelessly skewed toward earlier composers, of course. Bach and Mozart cannot pick composers that premiered works after they passed on. Mozart would never have picked Wagner . . .
> 
> But interesting nonetheless.


So far I find it more reliable than any list I've seen on TalkClassical. A similar number of people voting to a poll in here, but each of them a very talented composer in their own right. Sadly, beyond the top 8 things become more tricky, because each candidate has only a few "letters of recommendation". I will try to find more sources to expand both the existing lists, and the number of composers whose opinions are taken into account.

The key thing is, these are not mere performers or random consumers, but people who actually had to sit down and write this sort of music themselves.


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## Ethereality

From the data we have, the list of composers' favorite composers looks something like this:

1. Mozart
2. Bach
3. Beethoven
4. Wagner
5. Tchaikovsky
6. Debussy
7. Haydn
8. Schubert
9. Mendelssohn
10. Brahms
11. Mahler


Older opinions didn't take into account composers that hadn't been born yet or known. For instance, Bach and Beethoven favored Buxtehude and Handel over >>>> Wagner and Schubert. So the above list is adjusted to give progressively more weight to later opinions, or else the older the composer, the greater they are, and that would be fully biased towards ignorance of the future.


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## Fabulin

Ethereality said:


> From the data we have, the list of composers' favorite composers looks something like this:
> 
> 1. Mozart
> 2. Bach
> 3. Beethoven
> 4. Wagner
> 5. Tchaikovsky
> 6. Debussy
> 7. Haydn
> 8. Schubert
> 9. Mendelssohn
> 10. Brahms
> 11. Mahler
> 
> Older opinions didn't take into account composers that hadn't been born yet or known. For instance, Bach and Beethoven favored Buxtehude and Handel over >>>> Wagner and Schubert. So the above list is adjusted to give progressively more weight to later opinions, or else the older the composer, the greater they are, and that would be fully biased towards ignorance of the future.


Did you take what I posted and add a parameter of some sort, or did you go on a hunt for sources of your own?


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## Ethereality

Hey, I roughed a Top 10 from the same tabulation. I assume you could provide all the real stats and charts to us. But this temporary parameter is ie. [total number of quoted composers ÷ number of quoted composers who would know of the composer significantly.] This produces a perfectly 1:1 fair representation, where as measuring years would not, as there was much time earlier-on without as much critical recognition. It would be like giving Handel or Monteverdi an unfair disadvantage just because the composers after them didn't have as many quotes documented. It's a rough estimate, in fact maybe you will polish up something more accurate. I may have gotten Haydn and Handel wrong.


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## hammeredklavier

tdc said:


> "Ravel's preferred way of teaching would be to have a conversation with his students and demonstrate his points at the piano. He was rigorous and demanding in teaching counterpoint and fugue, as he revered Johann Sebastian Bach without reservation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Ravel


This paragraph is no longer found in the wikipedia page. I think they deleted it cause they thought it wasn't reliable information. Are there any reliable sources of information (published, peer-reviewed books or articles) about Ravel's admiration for Bach? 
*Ravel: Man and Musician (By Arbie Orenstein)* discusses Ravel's view on many composers, but not Bach.


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## Fabulin

hammeredklavier said:


> This paragraph is no longer found in the wikipedia page. I think they deleted it cause they thought it wasn't reliable information. Are there any reliable sources of information (published, peer-reviewed books or articles) about Ravel's admiration for Bach?
> *Ravel: Man and Musician (By Arbie Orenstein)* discusses Ravel's view on many composers, but not Bach.


I found nothing.


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## Open Book

The thread is so far limited to great composers' opinions of other great composers. Not surprising.

I read a biography of Brahms and it struck me that he was as likely to rate highly composers who are forgotten today as he was the greats. I'm sure he wasn't the only one. When great minds feel this way it's obvious that the passage of time is required to gain perspective and properly evaluate a composer's work. The most gifted composers didn't necessarily have an advantage in seeing clearly who would stand the test of time.

(I wish I could remember some details, specific names of Brahm's most admired obscure composers; I could probably include his early teacher Eduard Marxsen and his friend Joseph Joachim, better known as a violin virtuoso, but there were others. And I believe Brahms expressed admiration for Dvorak and respected but didn't completely get Mahler).


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## Fabulin

The thing I miss the most is the opinion of historical greats about Vivaldi. I am sure that he would have heaps of praise written about his music had it been preserved / re-discovered sooner after his death. I'm sure Mozart, Beethoven, and Tchaikovsky would have loved it.

Some, pardon the word, _fools _say that whereas the loss of Bach would have left a dent in many later composers's outputs, the loss of Vivaldi meant nothing. On what basis are they saying that, I wonder... The presence of Vivaldi's output, in my view, would have changed quite a bit. What passed as a "nice melody" in Italy in the times of Bellini and Donizetti would have been turned upside down had Vivaldi's music been in the game, and not hidden in an abbey library. He could have been a great inspiration to Schubert, Schumann, or Chopin. Who knows?

Maybe a revival of the Four Seasons and equally dramatic works of his could have jumpstarted the Romanticism movement sooner? Or how about starting jazz sooner? The invention of the saxophone + a Vivaldi revival could have been an incendiary combination...

Bach's music was revived by Mendelssohn, who in the spirit of his music was one of the closest to Vivaldi. You may imagine what sort of discovery would Vivaldi's works have been to him!

Or what storm of inspiration would have resulted if Paganini had an access to the lot...

Imagine all these things to a certain extent, and then imagine what Vivaldi's standing in the opinion-creating 19th century books and articles would have been. He would have been in the top whatever that he is not now.

The problem is, he has been rediscovered in the 1940s and later, when the things he could have inspired have already been reached by the musical world by other means.


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## tdc

hammeredklavier said:


> This paragraph is no longer found in the wikipedia page. I think they deleted it cause they thought it wasn't reliable information. Are there any reliable sources of information (published, peer-reviewed books or articles) about Ravel's admiration for Bach?
> *Ravel: Man and Musician (By Arbie Orenstein)* discusses Ravel's view on many composers, but not Bach.


Actually it does say something similar in Orenstein's book:

"Although the monumentality of Bach was unquestioned, serious reservations were held with regard to Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Franck and d'Indy, whose expansive architecture or metaphysical aspirations were far removed from Ravel's personal artistic priorities."

It also states Ravel felt d'Indy's teachings were 'false' because they were based on Beethoven, and that Ravel's primary model was Mozart. His musical philosophy was 'complex but not complicated' and once described his own music as very simple and essentially nothing but Mozart.

Likewise in the Debussy bio I read by Harvey Lee Snyder, I found no criticism by Debussy of Mozart or Bach.


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## tdc

I wonder why this thread is in the polls section, maybe it should be moved to the main forum? Actually I'd prefer if this sub section was devoted to games and everything else including polls be placed in the main forums, otherwise interesting threads quickly get buried by the games.


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## Ethereality

It's interesting seeing brilliant composers championing composers a lot of us would not even listen to.

Bach says "Buxtehude is the greatest composer", not Monteverdi or Palestrina or anyone. In fact I'm sure he follows some more eccentric names after Buxtehude.

There aren't really other main composers this extreme, and most of the great composers have one of the Big 3 as their favorite, but not someone way off the main list:

Beethoven later in his life said Handel was his favorite, instead of Mozart.
Prokofiev said Haydn was his clear favorite.
Bruckner said Wagner was his idol.

But most of the greats seem to point to the Big 3.
They're not really 'the greats' though, but who the public decides is great. By that I mean, if a bunch of great composers love the Big 3, it's because the public likes the Big 3. 'The greats' are arbitrarily chosen and followed because they sound like offshoots of the Big 3.
I noticed Dvorak's symphonies for instance, while Schubert-esque, are mostly extensions of Beethoven's 6th.

If I wanted to know who the true 'Greats' are, I would ask individuals. I'd hear names from all around the world.


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## larold

_Bruckner - a big Wagner fan (everyone here probably knows that - he dedicated his 3rd symphony to the man), but Bruckner also studied Beethoven's late quartets when composing his string quintet & the music of Palestrina was a huge influence on Bruckner's choral music in particular. Not to mention ALL of the then current organ repertoire - including J. S. Bach - Bruckner was the greatest organist and improviser on organ of his generation._

Beethoven's influence on Bruckner's music is easily seen in the symphonies. Most of them begin with a cadence similar to the beginning of Beethoven's 9th. Less obvious is the influence of Liszt. if you look at the structure of Bruckner's music you will see Liszt was also an unmistakable influence. Liszt was, of course, the greatest influence on Wagner's music as well.


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## Guest002

Britten's Anti-List would have been

1. Johannes Brahms
2. Ralph Vaughan Williams
3. Edward Elgar
4. Charles Villiers Stanford
5. Charles Hubert Parry

He liked Brahms' music a lot as a youngster, but rapidly came to detest it. I seem to recall he would play through some once a year in his maturity, just to make sure he was still right about it being absolute tosh!

His Pro-List would probably have started

1. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
2. Franz Schubert
3. Henry Purcell
4. Gustav Mahler
5. Alban Berg
6. Arnold Schönberg

I feel Dmitri Shostakovich and Igor Stravinsky should appear on the list somewhere or other: he definitely admired both. And he took the trouble to translate the Johannes-Passion into English, and when I last looked round the Red House Library, I distinctly remember seeing an entire 1947 edition of the Bach Gesellschaft-Ausgabe so Bach must have been an influence to some extent or other, too.


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## Phil loves classical

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> He liked Brahms' music a lot as a youngster, but rapidly came to detest it. I seem to recall he would play through some once a year in his maturity, just to make sure he was still right about it being absolute tosh!


Close.

"Benjamin Britten said he played through his music every few years to remind himself how bad it was - and usually found it was worse."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture...is-a-prickly-composer-but-a-powerful-one.html

I recall he had a diary, where he recorded a lot of his impressions. I read some of it, it was pretty funny. His praise of Elgar is at least VW was worse or something.


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## mikeh375

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Britten's Anti-List would have been
> 
> I feel Dmitri Shostakovich and *Igor Stravinsky should appear on the list somewhere or other: he definitely admired both*. And he took the trouble to translate the Johannes-Passion into English, and when I last looked round the Red House Library, I distinctly remember seeing an entire 1947 edition of the Bach Gesellschaft-Ausgabe so Bach must have been an influence to some extent or other, too.


...not too sure Stravinsky's opinion of Britten was as respectful. Remember his words on hearing of the immediate success of the War requiem, "well it can't be any good then". I'm not sure, but wasn't Britten also critical of 'The Rakes Progress' ?


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## Guest002

mikeh375 said:


> ...not too sure Stravinsky's opinion of Britten was as respectful. Remember his words on hearing of the immediate success of the War requiem, "well it can't be any good then". I'm not sure, but wasn't Britten also critical of 'The Rakes Progress' ?


From memory, I think Stravinsky was a bit dismissive of the War Requiem more because of how everyone was praising it as a great masterpiece than because he didn't think Britten was very good.

*Edited to add:*A bit of further reading indicates my memory is faulty. Stravinsky thought the War Requiem was "A Honegger-type cinemascope epic in idiom, derived in part from Boulanger-period Stravinsky" and that it contained "patterns rather than inventions... an absence of true counterpoint" and "a bounteous presence of literalisms ('the drums of Time' sings the baritone and 'boom, boom, boom' go the obedient timpani)".

He concluded by saying that, "the composer-laureate's certified masterpiece has turned out, for this well-disposed listener, at least, to be rather a soft bomb".

But this fits in with his general jealousy of Britten -including writing a cantata called Abraham and Isaac and a piece called Noah's Flood, both pieces which Britten had written about several years earlier, of course!

Anyway...
_End of edit.../I]

Britten was not impressed by The Rake's Progress, but not with the quote that he 'admired it very much, everything except the music': that was Auden's description of Britten's reaction to Stravinsky, but it's not Britten's own description, which was rather 'I feel miserably disappointed that easily the greatest composer alive (i.e., Stravinsky... itself an interesting comment!) should have such an irresponsible and perverse view of opera (of the voice & of the settings of words & of characterisation in particular). Of course, I am sure it will contain a lot of beautiful music & it will be original and distinguished, but I'm not yet convinced that it helps to keep opera alive one little bit...'

In 1932, he described Le sacre de printemps as 'the World's Wonder', though a year earlier he had said of the same piece, 'bewildering & terrifying. I didn't really enjoy it, but I think it's incredibly marvellous & arresting'.

In his New York Times obituary, Britten is quoted as having said: "Every note Stravinsky writes is the work of a great master. But sometimes his theories influence his works to their detriment..."

Meanwhile, I should add a number 6 to my Anti-List: Beethoven. "A certain rot, if that isn't too strong a word, set in with Beethoven. Before Beethoven, music served things greater than itself. For example, the glory of God, the greatest glory of all. Or the glory of the state. Or the composer's social environment. After Beethoven the composer became the center of his own universe. Hence the Romantic school." _


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

> Meanwhile, I should add a number 6 to my Anti-List: Beethoven. "A certain rot, if that isn't too strong a word, set in with Beethoven. Before Beethoven, music served things greater than itself. For example, the glory of God, the greatest glory of all. Or the glory of the state. Or the composer's social environment. After Beethoven the composer became the center of his own universe. Hence the Romantic school."


Odd that he would say this and also detest Brahms (the clearest exception to this trend)...

Whatever. Composers spout gossip about each other. So do academics, actors, athletes, authors, etc. Just remember the work always comes before the personality.


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## DeepR

Scriabin's favorite composers: first Chopin, later Wagner, then Scriabin.

He disliked: Brahms, Beethoven(?), Rachmaninoff, and many others probably. :lol:
I've read somewhere he was also dismissive of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring after looking at the score (Stravinsky actually admired Scriabin).


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## Coach G

Interesting topic...

I know that Tchaikovsky greatly admired Mozart; called him a "musical Christ". I think Tchaikovsky was frustrated that despite his ability to create beautiful melodies, he wanted a form that connected his melodic ideas in a way that more seamless, as if the music is always in a constant state of flow. Of course, if you're going to use Mozart as you're benchmark, you're bound to fall short.

In _Lives of the Great Composers_, Harold Schoenberg states that the symphonies of Bruckner and Mahler are all unconscious attempts to re-write Beethoven's _Symphony #9 "Choral"_, especially in regard to the _Adagio_ movement.

In the same volume, Schonberg points to Grieg as a major influence of Debussy, especially in regard Debussy's _String Quartet_ modeled after Grieg's _String Quartet_. It's interesting to me that while Debussy is heralded by some as the first among Modern composers, much of his music to my ears doesn't seem that far removed from Romanticism, especially the piano miniatures of Schumann such as _Prophet Bird_ and _Lonely Flowers_ can easily be programmed aside Debussy's _Girl with the Flaxen Hair. _

And even though Schoenberg is considered to be the father of Ultra-Modernism, he saw himself as a traditionalist, firmly grounded in a German tradition that brought together Brahms and Wagner.

Early on, Shostakovich is influenced by Stravinsky and Prokofiev, but then later turns to Mahler as inspiration for those monster symphonies.

I read somewhere that Copland's Americana phase (i.e. _Appalachian Spring_, _Rodeo_, _Symphony #3_) was influenced by Shostakovich's ability to communicate with the masses. I think you can hear some similarities in the musical language, though Copland retains a sense of home-spun American feeling and a sense of optimism; as opposed to Shostakovich's sad Russian soulfulness and bleakness.

Webern and Berg were, of course, students of Schoenberg, and are often programmed together with Schoenberg on records and CDs; like a Viennese law-firm, _Schoenberg, Berg & Webern_.


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## mikeh375

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> From memory, I think Stravinsky was a bit dismissive of the War Requiem more because of how everyone was praising it as a great masterpiece than because he didn't think Britten was very good.
> 
> *Edited to add:*A bit of further reading indicates my memory is faulty. Stravinsky thought the War Requiem was "A Honegger-type cinemascope epic in idiom, derived in part from Boulanger-period Stravinsky" and that it contained "patterns rather than inventions... an absence of true counterpoint" and "a bounteous presence of literalisms ('the drums of Time' sings the baritone and 'boom, boom, boom' go the obedient timpani)".
> 
> He concluded by saying that, "the composer-laureate's certified masterpiece has turned out, for this well-disposed listener, at least, to be rather a soft bomb".
> 
> But this fits in with his general jealousy of Britten -including writing a cantata called Abraham and Isaac and a piece called Noah's Flood, both pieces which Britten had written about several years earlier, of course!
> 
> Anyway...
> _End of edit.../I]
> 
> Britten was not impressed by The Rake's Progress, but not with the quote that he 'admired it very much, everything except the music': that was Auden's description of Britten's reaction to Stravinsky, but it's not Britten's own description, which was rather 'I feel miserably disappointed that easily the greatest composer alive (i.e., Stravinsky... itself an interesting comment!) should have such an irresponsible and perverse view of opera (of the voice & of the settings of words & of characterisation in particular). Of course, I am sure it will contain a lot of beautiful music & it will be original and distinguished, but I'm not yet convinced that it helps to keep opera alive one little bit...'
> 
> In 1932, he described Le sacre de printemps as 'the World's Wonder', though a year earlier he had said of the same piece, 'bewildering & terrifying. I didn't really enjoy it, but I think it's incredibly marvellous & arresting'.
> 
> In his New York Times obituary, Britten is quoted as having said: "Every note Stravinsky writes is the work of a great master. But sometimes his theories influence his works to their detriment..."
> 
> Meanwhile, I should add a number 6 to my Anti-List: Beethoven. "A certain rot, if that isn't too strong a word, set in with Beethoven. Before Beethoven, music served things greater than itself. For example, the glory of God, the greatest glory of all. Or the glory of the state. Or the composer's social environment. After Beethoven the composer became the center of his own universe. Hence the Romantic school." _


_

Thanks for that AB. What an absolutely bitchy thing to say. I didn't know that Britten held Stravinsky in such high regard as I'd only only read about Britten's remarks about The Rake. I must get around to reading the Neil Powell book on Britten I bought pre-covid.
BTW I watched Barbara Hannigan conducting and singing Les Illuminations last night on YT...





_


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## Guest002

mikeh375 said:


> Thanks for that AB. What an absolutely bitchy thing to say. I didn't know that Britten held Stravinsky in such high regard as I'd only only read about Britten's remarks about The Rake. I must get around to reading the Neil Powell book on Britten I bought pre-covid.
> BTW I watched Barbara Hannigan conducting and singing Les Illuminations last night on YT...


I like the sopranos singing Les Illuminations (for whom they were always intended, of course: Sophie Wyss having given the world premier of them in 1940). Peter Pears rather spoiled things by stealing them for tenor voice, I always feel! That said, the Pears recording (as an LP) was one of the first Britten recordings I was ever given (by my Greek Literature teacher), and the first seed which grew into my love of all things Britten ever since (thanks, Mr. Akehurst!). That violin opening always gets me!!

Impressed seeing a singer/conductor. Don't think I've ever seen that before -and she's bloody good, too (vocally, at least: I'm not sure she does much by way of conducting!)


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