# I just dont get Brahms Solo p/f music



## PlaySalieri

It's odd because I love his symphonies, chamber music - concertos inc the piano concertos

but I just cant find anything of any interest in his solo piano music.

Am I alone?


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## Triplets

Have you tried his late Piano Music?


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## chesapeake bay

stomanek said:


> Am I alone?


Maybe.... His piano stuff requires good interpretation, try these two and see what you think.


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## Brouken Air

If you haven't heard any Brahms by Richter, Arrau, Gilels, Michelangelli, Argerich, Kempff, Katchen, Moravec, Lupu, Pogorelich... then you should, if you have then you have a problem:devil:

Here are the piano pieces among the best:
Ballades by Richter, Arrau, Michelangelli, Barda
Variations on a Theme of Paganini for Piano in A minor, Op. 35 by Emil Gilels (live in Japan 1984)
Variations on a Theme by Händel in B flat major, Op. 24 by Arrau, for two hands by Argerich
Op. 119 by Wirsaladze, Kempff, Richter, Katchen, Lupu
Op. 118 by Moravec, Kempff, Richter, Lupu, Katchen
Op. 117 by Horowitz, Ader, Kempff, Lupu, Katchen,Pogorelich
Op. 116 by Richter, Katchen, Kempff, Gilels
Piano Sonata No. 1 by Wirsaladze, Richter, Katchen, Zimerman
Piano Sonata No. 2 by Richter, Katchen, Zimerman, Arrau
Piano Sonata No. 3 by Richter, Katchen, Zimerman, Lupu, Arrau, Fischer
Sonata in F minor for Two Pianos, Op. 34b by Argerich
Op. 76 by Barda, Pogorelich, Ader, Angelich, Katchen
For a nearly complete Brahms piano music try Katchen & Ohlsson for the variations.


:tiphat:


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## Aramis

stomanek said:


> Am I alone?


No. I also adore Brahms in general, but can't help being annoyed/bored by his piano music, including the highly praised late opuses. Not all composers could be omnibuses, so don't blame yourself about "not getting it" and focus on genres in which Brahms was more successful.


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## joen_cph

I remember we´ve had a couple of threads on this subject. For me, the early Kempff Decca recordings of the piano music somehow meant revising my views (I also found some well-known standard recordings boring), and to explore further recordings (Yudina, for example). Difficult to explain about those Kempff recordings, but somehow they have a lyrical, "singing" and suitable quality I like in the music.

-> http://www.talkclassical.com/32784-brahms-op-116-119-a.html


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## Mandryka

stomanek said:


> It's odd because I love his symphonies, chamber music - concertos inc the piano concertos
> 
> but I just cant find anything of any interest in his solo piano music.
> 
> Am I alone?


No I don't think you're alone if you mean early sonatas, or the ballades, I'm with you there.

If you like the second piano concerto then it's a bit surprising you don't like the Paganini Variations (despite the annoying theme)

The late pieces can be dreadful when played like an old man crying into his bear. But some people make real music out of them. Try Schnabel and Yudina, for example. Or Grimaud's first recording on Erato. Or Leonskaja. Or (if you're feeling brave) Backhaus's op 118 from the 1930s. Or the resent performances from Sokolov which used to be on youtube.


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## Krummhorn

Brahms also composed for the organ ... there are two recordings from his 11 Chorale Preludes, Op. 12.


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## Mandryka

Brouken Air said:


> If you haven't heard any Brahms by Richter, Arrau, Gilels, Michelangelli, Argerich, Kempff, Katchen, Moravec, Lupu, Pogorelich... then you should, if you have then you have a problem:devil:
> 
> Here are the piano pieces among the best:
> Ballades by Richter, Arrau, Michelangelli, Barda
> Variations on a Theme of Paganini for Piano in A minor, Op. 35 by Emil Gilels (live in Japan 1984)
> Variations on a Theme by Händel in B flat major, Op. 24 by Arrau, for two hands by Argerich
> Op. 119 by Wirsaladze, Kempff, Richter, Katchen, Lupu
> Op. 118 by Moravec, Kempff, Richter, Lupu, Katchen
> Op. 117 by Horowitz, Ader, Kempff, Lupu, Katchen,Pogorelich
> Op. 116 by Richter, Katchen, Kempff, Gilels
> Piano Sonata No. 1 by Wirsaladze, Richter, Katchen, Zimerman
> Piano Sonata No. 2 by Richter, Katchen, Zimerman, Arrau
> Piano Sonata No. 3 by Richter, Katchen, Zimerman, Lupu, Arrau, Fischer
> Sonata in F minor for Two Pianos, Op. 34b by Argerich
> Op. 76 by Barda, Pogorelich, Ader, Angelich, Katchen
> For a nearly complete Brahms piano music try Katchen & Ohlsson for the variations.
> 
> :tiphat:


Did you hear Richter play the third sonata in a concert, or is there a recording? I think Kocsis is good there, though I really don't much care for the music at the end of the day. I quite like that performance of the paganini variations, but I think ultimately it's a bit to solemn and leaden.


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## Mandryka

Krummhorn said:


> Brahms also composed for the organ ... there are two recordings from his 11 Chorale Preludes, Op. 12.


There's an absolutely revelatory performance of those pieces by Gerd Zacher.


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## Ukko

You don't 'get' Brahms' piano music, I don't connect with Boulez's. Neither of them care.


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## Triplets

Lupu's Brahms has the perfect mix of poetry, rubato, and great sound. If you find yourself resistant to his recordings, then the music isn't for you. Your loss, imo


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## Brouken Air

Mandryka said:


> Did you hear Richter play the third sonata in a concert, or is there a recording? I think Kocsis is good there, though I really don't much care for the music at the end of the day. I quite like that performance of the paganini variations, but I think ultimately it's a bit to solemn and leaden.


Wishful thinking and copy paste syndrom... There's no third sonata by Richter...

Concerning the paganini variations, Gilels and Arrau seem to like those. The interpretation of Gilels is really out of this world!

Concerning Kocsis, I haven't heard the recording, is it really worth?

:tiphat:


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## Steatopygous

Give it time. there's lots of music over the years I have not taken to immediately, or for a long time, but now love. 
Brahms' piano music is certainly worth persevering with. His textures are very dense, and there is always a lot going on, which takes a little familiarity and a lot of concentration. I struggled for a long time with his quartets and chamber music for forces of more than two. Love them now.


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## tdc

The early pieces I find ok, but I really love the late works. To my ears they have a 'serious' quality to them that I like and I find different from other Romantic (and Classical) era piano works - to me it seems like Brahms returned to this more 'serious' and introspective sound that hadn't really been used since Bach, and it seems to pre-figure a similar sound I very much admire in some of the piano works of certain Spanish composers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, this later music is not really impressionism but more of a 'serious' sounding neo-classicism.

For example this piece:





Yes there are some darker, serious things in some Beethoven, Liszt and Chopin etc but I find there is more of a caricature-esque sound to this other Romantic aesthetic that Brahms started to get away from, and Wagner also got away from it (in a different way).

I'm not sure if there is a direct influence from Brahms in the above Spanish style, but I get a similar vibe from such works. Perhaps they are both drawing some influence from J.S. Bach.


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## Aecio

I also adore Brahms, and it also took me a certain time to like Brahms piano. I tried Lupu, Kempff without getting it, until I tried Pogorelich, who has a very unorthodox Brahms CD. Pogorelich is kind of weird, he stretches the pieces but his version is the one who speaks the best to me.
Angelich late piano op116-119 is also quite good, he also stretches and slows the pieces but surprisingly for such a young pianist he manages to pass the wisdom and longing of this Brahms farewell to the world.


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## Bulldog

Brahms is one of my favorite composers of solo keyboard music; I find it's very easy to enjoy just as much as any other Brahms genre. Yes, the textures are heavy, but they are also heavy for his chamber and orchestral works.


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## Musicophile

Being a big brahms fan, his sonatas are also not among my favorite works. The op. 76 and especially 116-119 however I just love.

I'd personally recommend, beyond Lupu and Kempff that were already mentioned, either the old complete works by Julius Katchen on Decca, but two more contemporary recordings that are both outstanding:


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## millionrainbows

stomanek said:


> It's odd because I love his symphonies, chamber music - concertos inc the piano concertos
> 
> but I just cant find anything of any interest in his solo piano music.
> 
> Am I alone?


No, you are not alone, and I admire the great courage it took to say something like that.

While we are confessing, I will admit that I like Dvorak better, as a direct replacement, for Brahms.


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## millionrainbows

Aecio said:


> I also adore Brahms, and it also took me a certain time to like Brahms piano. I tried Lupu, Kempff without getting it, until I tried Pogorelich, who has a very unorthodox Brahms CD. Pogorelich is kind of weird, he stretches the pieces but his version is the one who speaks the best to me.
> Angelich late piano op116-119 is also quite good, he also stretches and slows the pieces but surprisingly for such a young pianist he manages to pass the wisdom and longing of this Brahms farewell to the world.


Aecio is right! That Pogorelich recording of the Intermezzos is pretty sublime and introspective. It just oozes out. It woulds be good music for Bolero-type situations.


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## millionrainbows

Aecio said:


> I also adore Brahms, and it also took me a certain time to like Brahms piano. I tried Lupu, Kempff without getting it, until I tried Pogorelich, who has a very unorthodox Brahms CD. Pogorelich is kind of weird, he stretches the pieces but his version is the one who speaks the best to me.
> Angelich late piano op116-119 is also quite good, he also stretches and slows the pieces but surprisingly for such a young pianist he manages to pass the wisdom and longing of this Brahms farewell to the world.


Aecio is right! The Ivo Pogorelich recording of the Ballades is sublime and introspective. It just oozes out of the speakers.

It does seem to "wander around" a lot. Is this the quality people don't get? If so, maybe some medicinal marijuana might help.


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## MrTortoise

Try Gould's recording of the Ballades as well. He will give you some direction, no medical intervention required!


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## sprite

To piggy back off the Gould suggestion, definitely try Glenn Gould's performances of both Rhapsodies. 

I've been listening to those a lot lately and just yesterday listened to Marga Argerich's version. She plays it beautifully and ponderously, and there's a lot of open space, taking time between transitions to different thematic sections and lots of contrasting textures. 

Glenn Gould gives those pieces a spine by maintaining this controlled rigidity throughout, striking each note authoritatively, and he manages to bring out the harmonies and chord progressions in this really interesting, almost modern-sounding way. (If you listen closely to a certain part in the second Rhapsodie, I swear you can briefly hear the soundtrack to "Being John Malkovich")

Both performances are great but I think if you're not inclined to Brahm's music generally, you might find that the Gould piece shifts it for you.


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## hpowders

stomanek said:


> It's odd because I love his symphonies, chamber music - concertos inc the piano concertos
> 
> but I just cant find anything of any interest in his solo piano music.
> 
> Am I alone?


No. You are not alone!

Except for the magnificent Brahms' Variations on a Theme by Handel, I also am disappointed by the bulk of Brahms' solo piano music.


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## helenora

tdc said:


> To my ears they have a 'serious' quality to them that I like and I find different from other Romantic (and Classical) era piano works - to me it seems like Brahms returned to this more 'serious' and introspective sound that hadn't really been used since Bach, and it seems to pre-figure a similar sound I very much admire in some of the piano works of certain Spanish composers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, this later music is not really impressionism but more of a 'serious' sounding neo-classicism.
> 
> For example this piece:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there are some darker, serious things in some Beethoven, Liszt and Chopin etc but I find there is more of a caricature-esque sound to this other Romantic aesthetic that Brahms started to get away from, and Wagner also got away from it (in a different way).
> 
> I'm not sure if there is a direct influence from Brahms in the above Spanish style, but I get a similar vibe from such works. Perhaps they are both drawing some influence from J.S. Bach.


very much agree with you, liked your insights about styles, same thoughts on some Spanish composers and thanks for the nice piece by Joaquin Rodrigo


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## elgar's ghost

I can't say I'm a massive fan of Brahms' sonatas - they're a little too flowery and overblown in places for my liking which I don't think brings out the best in him, but he was young and finding his way so I shouldn't be too critical. In contrast the restraint and introspection often shown in the miniatures of his middle and later years are far more appealing and for me represents the summit of his piano output.


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## Vaneyes

stomanek said:


> It's odd because I love his symphonies, chamber music - concertos inc the piano concertos
> 
> but I just cant find anything of any interest in his solo piano music.
> 
> *Am I alone?*


'Cept fo' Ukko, yes you are! Sokolov, Pogo, GG, Kovacevich, Angelich, Lupu, and even Wolf Lady can help. :tiphat:


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## solkorset

stomanek said:


> It's odd because I love his symphonies, chamber music - concertos inc the piano concertos
> 
> but I just cant find anything of any interest in his solo piano music.
> 
> Am I alone?


I hope so, but as the thread shows you are not.

Brahms' late piano music is some of the most profound and noble music ever composed. It gives me a religious experience to concentrate deeply and listen to them in the loneliness and silence of the night. It moves me so deeply. This music once changed my life. It is holy.


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## silentio

Brahms' op.116-119 are the jewels of classical music. They are up there with Mozart's finest piano concerto and string quintets, Beethoven's late string quartets, and Schubert's final songs.


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## BartokPizz

A lot of comments are denigrating the OP for not liking Brahms--Brahms doesn't care, you'll get there someday, etc. I find these comments pretty arrogant.

Other comments compare the dense textures of the late piano music to the dense textures of the chamber music and say there is little difference: love one, love them all. As I pianist, I don't see the comparison as apt. Brahms's writing for the piano is much denser and awkwardly unpianistic as compared to the solo piano music of Beethoven, Mendelssohn, or Schumann than his string quartets, say, are in comparison to those of the same composers.

I find Opp. 116-119 overcomposed and the thematic material generally rather poor. And I am rather in love with Brahms in general.


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## tdc

BartokPizz said:


> *Other comments compare the dense textures of the late piano music to the dense textures of the chamber music and say there is little difference:* love one, love them all. As I pianist, I don't see the comparison as apt. Brahms's writing for the piano is much denser and awkwardly unpianistic as compared to the solo piano music of Beethoven, Mendelssohn, or Schumann than his string quartets, say, are in comparison to those of the same composers.
> 
> I find Opp. 116-119 overcomposed and the thematic material generally rather poor. And I am rather in love with Brahms in general.


Yet it seems as though in this same paragraph you are referring to Brahms piano music as if it is all the same, when in reality there is quite a difference between the earlier works and the late pieces. "Over composed" is pretty much the opposite of how I hear the latter. Rather, I find the late works organically expressive showing a deeply beautiful and more intimate side of Brahms compositional voice. When I read descriptions like "over composed" in regards to these pieces I am honestly astonished we are even discussing the same works.


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## BartokPizz

tdc said:


> BartokPizz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Other comments compare the dense textures of the *late piano music* to the dense textures of the chamber music and say there is little difference: love one, love them all....
> 
> I find *Opp. 116-119* overcomposed and the thematic material generally rather poor. And I am rather in love with Brahms in general.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet it seems as though in this same paragraph you are referring to Brahms piano music as if it is all the same, when in reality there is quite a difference between the earlier works and the late pieces.
Click to expand...

I specifically wrote *late *piano music. I don't know how I could have been more clear.

But yes, if it comes to that, I think it is very reasonable to state that there is a great deal of similarity between the Opp. 116-119 pieces and the earlier solo piano music, all composed for the same instrument, and to still object to lumping Brahms's piano music with his chamber music and symphonies and state love one, love them all, as has been going on in this thread. Composers tend to be better at composing for some genres and instruments than others.


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## tdc

BartokPizz said:


> I specifically wrote *late *piano music. I don't know how I could have been more clear.


This is the part that was not clear:



BartokPizz said:


> Brahms's writing for the piano is much denser and awkwardly unpianistic as compared to the solo piano music of Beethoven, Mendelssohn, or Schumann than his string quartets, say, are in comparison to those of the same composers.


This seems to be lumping it all together, which you then more or less agreed you were doing...



BartokPizz said:


> I think it is very reasonable to state that there is a great deal of similarity between the Opp. 116-119 pieces and the earlier solo piano music


Suffice to say I do not agree. But it is not surprising that some who like other Romantic composers piano music aren't as keen on Brahms, because his compositional style _is_ very far removed from the styles of the other names you mentioned. This is one example of why it is so ridiculous when people claim that Brahms is merely some Beethoven copycat (not suggesting you said this, but others here have). His compositional style is quite distinct.


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