# You can't believe they don't like it! Why?



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

"I can't believe you don't like it!"

Why so incredulous?

This is a musical poll, but it has to do with many other sorts of subjective tastes. Could be food, drink, clothing, sports, art, you name it. Multiple options, anonymous.

I simply can't and don't feel like relating to the other human being to understand why they would possibly beg to differ with me

Because there is a right and wrong answer about it sometimes, and I know I'm on the right side this time!

That's an exaggeration. I do "believe," but I want to tell them just how awful I feel that they don't agree with me because it makes ME feel ashamed

That's an exaggeration. I do "believe," but I want to tell them just how awful I feel that they don't agree with me because I think THEY should be ashamed of themselves anyhow

I can't believe you think this is something to discuss on our forum!

I don't like the phrase......

I don't use the phrase often, if at all. Few people phase me. 


I want HONESTY. You get anonymity. This isn't being passive-aggressive, this is a psychological analysis of people's motives behind a certain phrase. And maybe what we can do about it.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I often can't believe that others can't believe that others don't like it. I think everything is capable of being disliked.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I didn't vote, because I would like to say 'other'. 
I do believe it, and I don't feel ashamed or think the other person has anything to be ashamed of, but use the phrase anyway.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Could you please give me a couple of days more time?? I don't think I'm able to decide my vote before Jan-08-2016 22:55


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

MoonlightSonata said:


> I didn't vote, because I would like to say 'other'.
> I do believe it, and I don't feel ashamed or think the other person has anything to be ashamed of, but use the phrase anyway.


Well why do you use it then? as hyperbole of a shocked reaction?


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Well why do you use it then? as hyperbole of a shocked reaction?


Yes, precisely that.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I voted 'I simply can't and don't feel like relating to the other human being to understand why they would possibly beg to differ with me'. Intellectually, I agree with Green Mamba that everything is capable of being disliked, but that doesn't make another person's dislike of something one holds dear any easier to relate to, especially when the disliker is knowledgeable and discerning.

Actually it's worse than that: I have pretty niche tastes, so it's often a case of 'I can't believe that_ nobody else_ likes it! WHY?!!'


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> I voted 'I simply can't and don't feel like relating to the other human being to understand why they would possibly beg to differ with me'. Intellectually, I agree with Green Mamba that everything is capable of being disliked, *but that doesn't make another person's dislike of something one holds dear any easier to relate to, especially when the disliker is knowledgeable and discerning.*


When it comes to some things I hold very dear (like classical music), I find it hard to believe the disliker is actually knowledgeable and discerning. I tend to think the disliker has either not really given it a try, or he is infected with some stereotype about it, and that I cannot relate to.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> When it comes to some things I hold very dear (like classical music), I find it hard to believe the disliker is actually knowledgeable and discerning. I tend to think the disliker has either not really given it a try, or he is infected with some stereotype about it, and that I cannot relate to.


Received opinion- much of it perverse, or stemming from previous or even current fads in musical performance and/or criticism- certainly has a great deal to answer for. The dilemma can be, how hard should one push to change the opinion of somebody who we feel is mistaken? Is well-intentioned gentle persuasion and advice a constructive thing, or is it disrespectful? Should we proselytise, or leave the disliker to his dislike? After all, it's true of most of us that when a member of some evangelizing sect knocks on our door we don't usually think 'Wow, great, an opportunity to learn all about this guy's view of Jesus!' Rather, we think 'Who is this annoying individual and why has he interrupted my dinner?'


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Figleaf said:


> Is well-intentioned gentle persuasion and advice a constructive thing, or is it disrespectful? Should we proselytise, or leave the disliker to his dislike? After all, it's true of most of us that when a member of some evangelizing sect knocks on our door we don't usually think 'Wow, great, an opportunity to learn all about this guy's view of Jesus!' Rather, we think 'Who is this annoying individual and why has he interrupted my dinner?'


It is a constructive thing. There would be no learning of anything, if people did not feel compelled to share the things they love, and certainly no TalkClassical. I have surely done my share of proselytizing here (and in real life). And I think the things that we want to proselytize about are much more pleasant and enriching than another version of "you are a miserable sinner incapable of living a moral life unless your repent and put it under control of Jesus!" Somehow these types do not appear at my door any more. I'd like to see what they think of my Thor's Hammer


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I have been surprised to learn of the dislikes of some of the most famous musicians, some of them people I respect a lot. So, basically, you just have to leave people alone to go their own way toward whatever they are going toward eventually. When I am challenged, the questions I ask myself are:

Where am I? 
What have I learned? 
Am I recognizing all in my perceptual field? 
Do I need to rearrange my construction of reality (always shifting anyway)?

These things require recognition and loosening of unconscious habitual patterns of energy movements (or non-movements) in one's "system." It does not happen overnight even when one intends to move forward. It will never happen if one refuses to even accept that one can learn (and change and move). Any movement that may happen in another individual need not be to your liking. We all have our own unique journeys.

We can facilitate each other's growth by being open-minded and open-hearted and sharing without judgment (where sharing is accepted), and remembering not to make any exceptions for ourselves.



Figleaf said:


> The *dilemma* can be, how hard should one push to change the opinion of somebody who we feel is *mistaken*? Is well-intentioned gentle persuasion and advice a *constructive* thing, or is it *disrespectful*? Should we *proselytise*, or *leave* the disliker to his dislike?


dilemma - no
mistaken - irrelevant
constructive - no
disrespectful - yes
proselytise - no
leave - yes

Because the intention to change another is fundamentally disrespectful. You can talk about stuff and even argue without any underlying intention to change another.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

^^ Some thoughtful points, Giordano, but in seeking to change somebody's mind about (say) the merits of an artist or work of art, we are not (or hopefully not) seeking to change the essence of that person. That would be a mistake, and few sensible people would attempt such a thing!


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> ... in seeking to change somebody's mind about (say) the merits of an artist or work of art, we are not (or hopefully not) seeking to change the essence of that person.


Yes, I understand. What I am also saying, though, is that the "essence" (I would use the term "make-up") of a person is what determines one's "taste" in art. We are so offended by likes and dislikes, and by both honest testimonials and crude insults, because what makes up what we think of as "I" is tied to our appreciation of art.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

_That's an exaggeration. I do "believe," but their opinion makes ME feel ashamed and defensive_

I could relate to this option a lot. The first option is tempting, but then I feel too isolated, and since I am one to blame myself, it comes easier to direct the 'shame' inward. I've been really digging Martinu lately, more than music of composers that popular opinion holds to be greater, but I refrain from gushing too much because I don't like being shot down by these experts. Maybe a shade of option 4 is coming out, with that line of reasoning.

More like, they shouldn't be ashamed that they don't like it, but they should think twice about judging me for thinking highly of it and accept that my perceptions are quite valid to me.

Thinking of a specific scenario, I have a genuine pleasure in listening to the music of Georg Muffat. I elevate his music to the level of Corelli's in the scheme of my sense of music history and attempt at 'objective'-(but truly)subjective judgement, and in terms of personal enjoyment, I get more out of it. In this case, I would fight until 'proven wrong' if there was a conflicting opinion that this(Muffat's music) was just a high quality minor master.

People who challenge the status quo of taste probably often run into this. I try to be sensible and not make outrageous claims too quickly, but I do have an impulse to advocate for music that isn't conventionally ranked among the greatest, but that I can personally sense its merit(a cutting skeptic might make me waver and think that I merely 'want to sense the merit', but I have answers to that too).

Some people's opinions are much more threatening than others. These are people who really seem to know what they are talking about, but whose tastes don't often mesh with mine. It can be challenging, but I do my best to try to grow from exchanges with people of that relation to me in taste.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

That question of "I can't believe" seems to be a meta-thread which runs throughout the TC threads, and one which I find rather disappointing, although in all honesty I know that I have felt that way even though I intellectually realize that it is ridiculous. Actually I think that Figleaf's initial reaction maybe the closest :lol:


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Becca said:


> That question of "I can't believe" seems to be a meta-thread which runs throughout the TC threads, and one which I find rather disappointing, although in all honesty I know that I have felt that way even though I intellectually realize that it is ridiculous. Actually I think that Figleaf's initial reaction maybe the closest :lol:


Come on, sink down with us!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Having frequently existed in a minority of taste here and elsewhere as regards particular pieces and composers that I love but many do not (Mahler's Eighth and Stravinsky's Threni are two I feel many overlook or disparage too often), I am not so much incredulous of others as frustrated with the difficulty of communicating why I love what I love. If we could even get to the point of "I understand why you love it, though I do not myself and probably never will," I would consider that a success. Too often, though, I feel we get held up by distractions and inessential points, and never manage to communicate.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2015)

Each to their own. We're all different, with unique backgrounds. Etc etc etc!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

dogen said:


> Each to their own. We're all different, with unique backgrounds. Etc etc etc!


Too boring and not confrontational enough. Try again.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I voted, 'I don't use the phrase often, if at all.' 
I don't expect people to like the same things as me - and there's a certain cachet in being a Noble Lone & Loyal Liker. 

What I can't believe is why other people want to castigate me and others for a personal opinion.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Too boring and not confrontational enough. Try again.


Sorry, I wasn't thinking straight. How's this?-

I *can* believe other people don't like the good music that they should like.

I can believe it because many people are too narrow-minded and / or stupid to understand and appreciate quality when they hear it.

It could be quite tiring endlessly having to try to steer the inferior, shallow, poorly thought-out opinions of others towards a more enlightened (i.e. like mine) view. Thankfully, since my own tastes are beyond criticism, I find I can spend most of my forum time explaining to others why they are wrong, and assisting them, even when unbidden, in terms of them needing to improve their knowledge, change their attitude or simply keep their irritating views to themselves.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

dogen said:


> Sorry, I wasn't thinking straight. How's this?-
> 
> I *can* believe other people don't like the good music that they should like.
> 
> ...


Don't forget always to remind those who you assist to be grateful that you chose to spend your precious time to enlighten them, and especially that you chose to help them even when your help wasn't asked for and was strongly protested against (more effort needed on your part and hence more reason for gratitude). While your aesthetic tastes are obviously inferior to mine, they do serve an useful function as a sort of transitionary phase towards true art, that is to say art approved by Dim7 and art made by Dim7 even more so.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> Don't forget always to remind those who you assist to be grateful that you chose to spend your precious time to enlighten them, and especially that you chose to help them even when your help wasn't asked for and was strongly protested against (more effort needed on your part and hence more reason for gratitude). While your aesthetic tastes are obviously inferior to mine, they do serve an useful function as a sort of transitionary phase towards true art, that is to say art approved by Dim7 and art made by Dim7 even more so.


Naturally I defer to your transcendental level of perfect taste in all aesthetic pursuits. It acts as a beacon of aspiration for me , which, when I occasionally lose focus and stumble and offer an opinion of my own, your withering put-downs and generally patronising tirades act like a mental keisaku blow to my dull mind.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I used to say it a lot, but now I don't really care if someone doesn't like what I like. I mean, I can easily believe if someone doesn't like the music I like, because I don't like a lot of music that other people like. The same with anything else


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I'm with Kant here. If liking something is some personal, solipsistic thing, then talking about it serves no purpose. The beauty and horror in Kant's Critique of Judgement is this: if you dare to take the step to deem something 'beautiful' (and perhaps you shouldn't do it lightly), then you are actually demanding that EVERYONE agree with you. I remember encountering this the first time, it filled me with dread and repulse. But the more I started to think about it, the more it made sense.

Do yourself a favour and read the Critique of Judgement.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Ravel's Bolero.

Some people just like feeling superior.


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