# Classical Being Described as Sophisticated



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I read a lot of hesitation around here to describe CM as classy or sophisticated. I can understand wanting to break down that barrier that keeps new listeners (especially young ones) from listening, but shouldn't we give credit where it's due?

I personally feel a higher degree of class while listening to CM, but not in any egotistical kind of a way. It just brings out the class in my soul, the gentleman within.

What do you think TC?

:tiphat:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Captain, this is opening an can of worms.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> Captain, this is opening an can of worms.


So be it, I find this to be important.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Normally I have little class maybe that's why I listen to CM.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

To each his/her own. I just enjoy the music, like I enjoy non-classical music as well. Neither makes me feel that I'm now in a different class of persons.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The music can definitely range from the most fundamental to the most highly sophisticated, exalted, and spiritual elevated, especially on weekends, holidays, and Super Bowl Sundays. It has appealed to the lowliest of politicians and dictators, the worst of the homicidal maniacs, to the most elevated of teachers, philosophers, brain surgeons, and intellectual sophisticates. Even some of the worms and primates like it because it helps them evolve up the food chain. There are active forums dedicated to it as refuge for the shy renegades, misfits and outcasts. It deserves our praise.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I feel very sophisticated when I listen to cante flamenco; one of the select few with the experience and maturity to fully enjoy it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Why on earth do we have to talk about being sophisticated? Little ego trip for small minded people?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I am not familiar with the feeling that I have somehow become classy or sophisticated! I don't know what it would feel like to think I was those things .... and I am not even sure I know what classy and sophisticated actually mean. When I listen to great classical music I hear something that is exceptional - as in "outside of the norm" - and even the most calm and beautiful examples of it seem to me at least a little "wild" or untamed. That almost seems like almost the opposite of the connotations of the word "sophisticated".


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

yes, CM and especially modern CM is the crème de la crème of music. Only superior elite listeners have the talent to appreciate it. :tiphat:


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

To me, if someone said that Beethoven for example is not sophisticated, I would expect them to be better than him in his trade to such a degree that they could describe him as _unsophisticated_ in comparison. Other than that I find it ignorantly pretentious to deny complexity, mathematical elegance or whatever other quality that some music that has been laboriously worked on posesses, especially if said qualities were deliberately aimed at.

Why would young listeners _not_ want to be classy or sophisticated? Humans are, after all, more or less scrupulous collectors of positive adjectives.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Fabulin said:


> To me, if someone said that Beethoven for example is not sophisticated, I would expect them to be better than him in his trade...


Beethoven didn't have to be sophisticated, He was Beethoven. He left that sort of thing for lesser composers.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

"I personally feel a higher degree of class while listening to CM, but not in any egotistical kind of a way."

Yeah, going to say this is somewhat of a contradictory statement. To designate oneself as being of higher class for listening to CM is a little bit egotistical. It would surely be silly to say listening to anything makes one more of... much of anything. I don't think it warrants any sort of title.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> "I personally feel a higher degree of class while listening to CM, but not in any egotistical kind of a way."
> 
> Yeah, going to say this is somewhat of a contradictory statement. To designate oneself as being of higher class for listening to CM is a little bit egotistical. It would surely be silly to say listening to anything makes one more of... much of anything. I don't think it warrants any sort of title.


Not social class, you can be homeless and be a gentleman/lady.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

In comparison, some Rock fans stray away from Classical Music since it tends to lack a certain amount of edge that Rock brings, and that is true.

Classical isn't the edgiest of genres, even at its most aggressive.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven didn't have to be sophisticated, He was Beethoven. He left that sort of thing for lesser composers.


Beethoven's music is quite sophisticated and complex, celebrating class and the highest of the human spirit, but Beethoven himself was a hurting soul like some other composers.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Not social class, you can be homeless and be a gentleman/lady.


Sure thing. But listening to CM doesn't make you any more of a gentleperson either.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Sure thing. Listening to CM doesn't make you any more of a gentleperson, though.


Not automatically, no. I'm speaking in generalities, what types of persons tend to be attracted to certain types of music. Listen to CM radio, they speak to an intellectual crowd b/c that is what makes up the majority of their listeners.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven didn't have to be sophisticated, He was Beethoven. He left that sort of thing for lesser composers.


Maybe not in social circles, but Beethoven and every other highly accomplished composer, musician, and conductor possessed a high level of musical sophistication in order to achieve their objectives. It wasn't all a product of "natural" talent or infused knowledge. But I interpret the question posed by the OP as having to do with public perception of classical music. I say it's all music to be enjoyed whether a symphony or a simple folk melody. The degree of complexity or sophistication is besides the point.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Maybe not in social circles, but Beethoven and every other highly accomplished composer, musician, and conductor possessed a high level of musical sophistication in order to achieve their objectives. It wasn't all a product of "natural" talent or infused knowledge. But I interpret the question posed by the OP as having to do with public perception of classical music. I say it's all music to be enjoyed whether a symphony or a simple folk melody. The degree of complexity or sophistication is besides the point.


It is all music to be enjoyed, and perhaps this thread is an unnecessary distinction to make. But, I suppose I just want to state that when I listen to my favorite composers/works, I do feel uplifted and brought to my best self.

I further suppose I was wanting to see if others had that experience with CM, and I don't think the terms sophisticated and class are bad words to use when describing how you feel when listening, even if you get those feelings from other genres as well.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It's nice that CM circles aren't filled with mosh pits and drug addicts even if the composers themselves dabbled a bit here and there.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Music is subjective, but to prove a piece of art has value, you need to prove why it requires experience, knowledge, talent, skills to create. There is an old proverb in East Asia: 温故知新 "gain new insights through restudying old material." All the great artists who brought about innovations upheld the old traditions and conventional knowledge while doing so.




Whereas people like Paul McCartney don't understand the importance of this and I think it shows the kind of music he creates.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's nice that CM circles aren't filled with mosh pits and drug addicts even if the composers themselves dabbled a bit here and there.


That stuff happens onstage in operas. But seriously, drug addiction or violence can happen anywhere to anyone. No need to perpetuate stereotypes about rock music or any other profession.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> That stuff happens onstage in operas. But seriously, drug addiction or violence can happen anywhere to anyone. No need to perpetuate stereotypes about rock music or any other profession.


I think you are missing the point, try reading my post again and respond with a stronger retort.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think you are missing the point, try reading my post again and respond with a stronger retort.


Stronger retort? Your statement struck me as a generalization or assumption. But maybe in classical circles folks are more debonair? They get sloshed on martini's during intermission or after the show. Or get chased around the dressing room by Domingo and Levine?


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Not automatically, no. I'm speaking in generalities, what types of persons tend to be attracted to certain types of music. Listen to CM radio, they speak to an intellectual crowd b/c that is what makes up the majority of their listeners.


The way some of those radio hosts talk, often in overindulgent mid-Atlantic accents (on American radio) does make us think "sophisticated" on instinct. But you might be surprised. Did you ever consider...

"Listen to CM radio, they speak to an intellectual crowd b/c that is what makes up the majority of their listeners."

Cause and effect here might actually be switched around in some cases? Maybe people are turned off when they hear people trying to be overly sophisticated. Maybe if the stations just played purely music, no breaks, more people might tune in. But even if that's not the case at all, most of the people I know who love classical music are not overly 'sophisticated', or any more gentlemanly or ladylike than is normal. Nobody is trying to say classical doesn't at times demand more focus and willingness to think, but I don't think it warrants any badge of intellectualism... that just sounds sort of elitist.

"Shouldn't we give credit where it's due?"

What exactly do you want credit for? This sort of mindset feeds that unfortunate elitist fog around CM. I would love if more people tried it out, there are just worlds of incredible and powerful music to be enjoyed... We should give ourselves a pat on the back for sharing it with other people, not for keeping it to ourselves.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

"Class" or "Sophistication" doesn't lie in the "quality" of the art or body of knowledge you explore and enjoy... but rather in what you bring to that art or the body of knowledge. Condider this quote:

_"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."_
-Lex Luthor

In my field of "expertise"... the visual arts... the notion of the divide between "High" and "Low" art (not to be mistaken for "good" or "bad" art) began to unravel with the onset of Modernism. Pablo Picasso, the central figure of Modernism, suggested that great art is best achieved in the same manner in which the old aristocracy often produced their heirs... through a merger of "high" and "low". Left to its own device, Picasso argued that "high art" frequently ossifies into a dry academicism. "Low art", however, he admitted, for all its audacity and energy, frequently slips into tired cliche and vulgarity.

All eras had their examples of "popular art". Most didn't survive. With the development of the mass media such works of popular art could be broadly desseminated and presserved. There is "good"... "very good"... and "great" work to be found among popular/low art no less than among that which is deemed "high". To believ otherwise is pretentious and snobbish.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Stronger retort? Your statement struck me as a generalization or assumption. But maybe in classical circles folks are more debonair? They get sloshed on martini's during intermission or after the show. Or get chased around the dressing room by Domingo and Levine?


I have never seen someone out of control at a Classical show, and I've been to quite a few recently. Yes, there have been bad eggs in the CM scene like Levine, I won't deny that, then again, I'm speaking in generalities.

There are trends and statistics.

But, if you want to say a Classical performance is the same type of environment as a rock show, go ahead.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> "Class" or "Sophistication" doesn't lie in the "quality" of the art or body of knowledge you explore and enjoy... but rather in what you bring to that art or the body of knowledge. Condider this quote:
> 
> _"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."_
> -Lex Luthor
> ...


Very well put. That is an interesting gem of a philosophy from Picasso.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

The way some of those radio hosts talk, often in overindulgent mid-Atlantic accents (on American radio) does make us think "sophisticated" on instinct. But you might be surprised. Did you ever consider...

"Listen to CM radio, they speak to an intellectual crowd b/c that is what makes up the majority of their listeners."

Cause and effect here might actually be switched around in some cases? Maybe people are turned off when they hear people trying to be overly sophisticated. Maybe if the stations just played purely music, no breaks, more people might tune in. But even if that's not the case at all, most of the people I know who love classical music are not overly 'sophisticated', or any more gentlemanly or ladylike than is normal. Nobody is trying to say classical doesn't at times demand more focus and willingness to think, but I don't think it warrants any badge of intellectualism... that just sounds sort of elitist.

*I don't think that many folks are "faking" and admiration for CM. Perhaps that is your own situation. Let it be.*

"Shouldn't we give credit where it's due?"

What exactly do you want credit for? This sort of mindset feeds that unfortunate elitist fog around CM. I would love if more people tried it out, there are just worlds of incredible and powerful music to be enjoyed... We should give ourselves a pat on the back for sharing it with other people, not for keeping it to ourselves.
*
If folks want to stray away from the culture that has been created b/c of this music and further, the music b/c of this, that is on them. I'm not trying to keep it to myself, I share it for what it is, I'm not trying to hide its refined nature.*


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have never seen someone out of control at a Classical show, and I've been to quite a few recently. Yes, there have been bad eggs in the CM scene like Levine, I won't deny that, then again, I'm speaking in generalities.
> 
> There are trends and statistics.
> 
> But, if you want to say a Classical performance is the same type of environment as a rock show, go ahead.


They entertain different parts of human nature. You are no doubt surrounded by rock lovers here on this forum... that their performance environments differ also does not warrant CM devotees any credit. Apples and oranges.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> The way some of those radio hosts talk, often in overindulgent mid-Atlantic accents (on American radio) does make us think "sophisticated" on instinct. But you might be surprised. Did you ever consider...
> 
> "Listen to CM radio, they speak to an intellectual crowd b/c that is what makes up the majority of their listeners."
> 
> ...


No need to shout. I did not suggest anyone was faking admiration, I was trying to suggest it's possible the aura of 'sophistication' could be off-putting to people not into CM. That is no new idea.



> If folks want to stray away from the culture that has been created b/c of this music and further, the music b/c of this, that is on them.


Huh?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> "Class" or "Sophistication" doesn't lie in the "quality" of the art or body of knowledge you explore and enjoy... but rather in what you bring to that art or the body of knowledge. Condider this quote:
> 
> _"Some people can read War and Peace and come away thinking it's a simple adventure story. Others can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper and unlock the secrets of the universe."_
> -Lex Luthor
> ...


This thread has nothing to do with good or bad, it has everything to do with what types of crowds each appeal to, generally.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> They entertain different parts of human nature. You are no doubt surrounded by rock lovers here on this forum... that their performance environments differ also does not warrant CM devotees any credit. Apples and oranges.


This I know, ppl around here have diverse tastes in music. But which crowd is civilized, attentive and most respectful of the performers on stage?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> No need to shout. I did not suggest anyone was faking admiration, I was trying to suggest it's possible the aura of 'sophistication' could be off-putting to people not into CM. That is no new idea.
> 
> Huh?


I'm not shouting, I used bold to make it easier to separate the comments. Didn't you mean to say "what if there were listeners of CM b/c of the intellectualism that surrounds it to make them feel part of an elite group?"

I'm trying to say we shouldn't have to change our culture just to bring in new listeners.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> This thread has nothing to do with good or bad, it has everything to do with what types of crowds each appeal to, generally.


Well, let's see. Stalin's favorite composer was Mozart, while Hitler preferred Lehar. Hmmm...


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Well, let's see. Stalin's favorite composer was Mozart, while Hitler preferred Lehar. Hmmm...


"...generally"


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

If I play da Mozart geezer I feel dead cleva. I iz proppa classy now.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> This I know, ppl around here have diverse tastes in music. But which crowd is civilized, attentive and most respectful of the performers on stage?


But a person preferring to go a rock concert proves nothing about their civility, attention span, or respect for others.

I'm pretty sure Queen felt very much respected at Live Aid in front of a screaming mass of 100,000 people. Would've felt far less respected if the crowd had been a bunch of dead-silent old curmudgeons in evening wear. Again, apples and oranges.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sadly, classical soloists still refuse to bite the heads off bats during their performances. The box office suffers accordingly.

In the old days, violin soloists might play barnyard imitations between movements. People had more fun then!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Minor Sixthist said:


> But a person preferring to go a rock concert proves nothing about their civility, attention span, or respect for others.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Queen felt very much respected at Live Aid in front of a screaming mass of 100,000 people. Would've felt far less respected if the crowd had been a bunch of dead-silent old curmudgeons in evening wear. Again, apples and oranges.


Again, we are speaking in generalities. Most Rock fans do not also like Classical Music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm also not saying Classical is the only sophisticated music, nor that all Classical is sophisticated, but some music IS more classy and sophisticated than others, and Classical tends to fit that description like it or not.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> Humans are, after all, more or less scrupulous collectors of positive adjectives.


Yes, but who says "classy" and "sophisticated" are positive adjectives?



hammeredklavier said:


> Whereas people like Paul McCartney don't understand the importance of this and I think it shows the kind of music he creates.


"People like"? Perhaps you could give some others on your list?

McCartney well understands the importance of "restudying old material" - his whole career is shot through with reverence for the works of the original rock and roll masters!



Captainnumber36 said:


> *It's nice that CM circles aren't filled with mosh pits* and drug addicts even if the composers themselves dabbled a bit here and there.


Is it? What's wrong with the mosh pit? Or are you suggesting that everyone in the mosh pit is a drug addict? I've been in a mosh pit in my time, and attended many rock concerts, feeling classy and sophisticated...about my superior tastes compared to those who liked to sedately applaud at Cliff Richard or Jeff Wayne.

I rather regret that I was such a snob, though I didn't regret the mosh pit.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

There is nothing wrong with mosh pits if you enjoy that sort of thing. I am not implying all that engage in mosh pits are drug addicts, rather that rock and roll circles tend to have more drug users than Classical ones.

Music that is classy and sophisticated does not mean you feel superior in your tastes, rather that the music itself has elegance to it. And there is some Rock out there, especially the singer songwriters, that have lots of elegance in their music as well that I would classify as sophisticated and classy (Paul Simon for example, or James Taylor).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I've been a member of the largest classical music discussion board and the largest classic rock discussion board since about 10 years. One is heavily moderated, full of heated arguments with concealed or open ad hominems, and with scores of people banned. The other one is mellowly moderated, no heated arguments, very polite, and I've not seen a single banning. You draw your conclusions.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Yes, but who says "classy" and "sophisticated" are positive adjectives?


probably the same fools who think corrupt and evil are negative ones


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> probably the same fools who think corrupt and evil are negative ones


Certainly not how I choose to conduct my life, I value ethics and morals.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Certainly not how I choose to conduct my life, I value ethics and morals.


what can I say except - whoooooosh


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> what can I say except - whoooooosh


I just took it seriously for fun.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Music that is classy and sophisticated does not mean you feel superior in your tastes, rather that the music itself has elegance to it. And there is some Rock out there, especially the singer songwriters, that have lots of elegance in their music as well that I would classify as sophisticated and classy (Paul Simon for example, or James Taylor).


So what does this mean, exactly?



> I personally feel a higher degree of class while listening to CM, but not in any egotistical kind of a way. It just brings out the class in my soul, the gentleman within.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

stomanek said:


> probably the same fools who think corrupt and evil are negative ones


You're not a fool stomanek.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> So what does this mean, exactly?


It doesn't mean I think my taste is superior. It does mean CM brings out the gentleman within me. But your statement was that you felt sophisticated b/c you felt superior in your taste, that's not really sophistication, that's arrogance.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It doesn't mean I think my taste is superior. It does mean CM brings out the gentleman within me. But your statement was that you felt sophisticated b/c you felt superior in your taste, that's not really sophistication, that's arrogance.


Oh, yes, undoubtedly arrogance on my part, I freely admit it.

I just find the words you use don't quite make sense, so sorry if I've over-interpreted them. What is "the gentleman within you"?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Oh, yes, undoubtedly arrogance on my part, I freely admit it.
> 
> I just find the words you use don't quite make sense, so sorry if I've over-interpreted them. What is "the gentleman within you"?


We have different parts of our psyche, Classical Music brings out my manners and focuses my brain; 
the gentleman portion of my personality, which I happen to favor.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Just to let you all know, I enjoy Classical instrumental music most since I don't listen to lyrics, and don't quite care for Jazz as much as I used to.

I haven't explored CM of other cultures enough.

I find New Age cheesy.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Can our personal qualities qualities be turned on and off depending on the music we are listening to? Can you be a "gentleman" when (and, presumably, just after) listening to classical music and a completely boorish thug when listening to punk? I don't think so. What you are talking about is a fantasy about yourself that you can enjoy when you listen to classical music. It seems that that enjoyable fantasy is part of what you get out of the music. Fair enough I suppose but it seems likely to involve missing much that is in the music. Applied to music of the Classical era, for example, it could mean focusing on the rather dreary formal aspects of the music rather than the amazing inspiration that can be found in the greater works? Or maybe when listening to Romantic music it might involve enjoying "feeling a fine fellow" as you let the powerful and stirring music flow through you ... possibly at the expense of allowing the music to get closer to you as a real person?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Can our personal qualities qualities be turned on and off depending on the music we are listening to? Can you be a "gentleman" when (and, presumably, just after) listening to classical music and a completely boorish thug when listening to punk? I don't think so. What you are talking about is a fantasy about yourself that you can enjoy when you listen to classical music. It seems that that enjoyable fantasy is part of what you get out of the music. Fair enough I suppose but it seems likely to involve missing much that is in the music. Applied to music of the Classical era, for example, it could mean focusing on the rather dreary formal aspects of the music rather than the amazing inspiration that can be found in the greater works? Or maybe when listening to Romantic music it might involve enjoying "feeling a fine fellow" as you let the powerful and stirring music flow through you ... possibly at the expense of allowing the music to get closer to you as a real person?


It's not so black and white, and it's not so quick of a transfer, but yes, I think changing the music you listen to does have an effect on your mood.

For example, I have noticed I drive much better while listening to classical Radio than fist pumping Rock!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> We have different parts of our psyche, Classical Music brings out my manners and focuses my brain;
> *the gentleman portion of my personality,* which I happen to favor.


Mcleod asked and you did not answer

so I will ask

what is the gentleman within you?

be specific


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> Mcleod asked and you did not answer
> 
> so I will ask
> 
> ...


I did answer, but shall do it more explicitly. Calm temperament, minding manners, eloquent speech and etc.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> It's not so black and white, and it's not so quick of a transfer, but yes, I think changing the music you listen to does have an effect on your mood.


Quite so - but you seemed to be suggesting something more substantial and longer-lasting than mere mood. I agree with you about the driving!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

To the OP, you compose so you know it can make you feel pretty miserable at times, especially when stuck...am I right or am I right...
Mind you, it is often followed by a high which is more relief than anything else.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mikeh375 said:


> To the OP, you compose so you know it can make you feel pretty miserable at times, especially when stuck...am I right or am I right...
> Mind you, it is often followed by a high which is more relief than anything else.


Composing comes pretty easily to me thankfully, but I do understand that frustration. It is also important to recognize that that is a different step in the process of music.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe classical music has the widest possible emotional and spiritual range, not that other genres have none of it, from the most simple to the most complex, sophisticated and challenging. One can even find the dark side of life in it and it's rare to find that in any other kind of music because it's simply not commercial enough to please a popular audience. The music is essentially uncompromising, though sometimes there are of course some commercial considerations to keep the composer's body and soul together, but I believe the great composers not only write what they could but what they _must_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> *Composing comes pretty easily to me* thankfully, but I do understand that frustration. It is also important to recognize that that is a different step in the process of music.


But the question you have to ask is does listening to your compositions come easily to other people?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

DavidA said:


> But the question you have to ask is does listening to your compositions come easily to other people?


lol David and yet it is *the* biggest of questions for a composer and one that needs to be answered with conviction and belief. Sometimes there is no choice in whether or not we are aurally friendly, nor should we be too bothered if I'm honest as it might involve a compromise too far for some.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> *Composing comes pretty easily to me thankfully*, but I do understand that frustration. It is also important to recognize that that is a different step in the process of music.


Me too, it had to in order to meet absurd deadlines. Miserable was probably not quite the right adjective, perhaps "frustration at times" is better as you say.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

post deleted.......................


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I did answer, but shall do it more explicitly. Calm temperament,* minding manners,* eloquent speech and etc.


Well on behalf off all of us please do keep listening to classical music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I have never seen someone out of control at a Classical show, and I've been to quite a few recently. Yes, there have been bad eggs in the CM scene like Levine, I won't deny that, then again, I'm speaking in generalities.
> 
> There are trends and statistics.
> 
> But, if you want to say a Classical performance is the same type of environment as a rock show, go ahead.


I didn't say that, but all this stuff has nothing to do with music. And there isn't one type of rock music performance. It's a huge world. What's the point of comparing classical concerts to rock? I wouldn't expect a crowd of people at a metal show to sit quietly.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Composing comes pretty easily to me thankfully, but I do understand that frustration. It is also important to recognize that that is a different step in the process of music.


I'm kinda suspicious of music that comes to me too easily. After a shower and a meal I look at it again and see hackneyed chord progressions and lazy melodic patterns. Like writing, about 90% of the result probably comes from the polishing stage.

Of course when someone asks how long it took, I only mention the 15 minute inspiration for the bare bones. Makes me sound more like a genius.

I was already sophisticated and 'high-class' before I started listening to classical music. It may even have lowered my status.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Just to let you all know, I enjoy Classical instrumental music most since I don't listen to lyrics, and don't quite care for Jazz as much as I used to.
> 
> I haven't explored CM of other cultures enough.
> 
> I find New Age cheesy.


I'm glad you find New Age cheesy. In your OP, when you say Classical music is sophisticated, you're mixing 2 different meanings of the word "sophisticated" together, which have some people confused. Classical music is more sophisticated technically, and intellectually, than Pop or Blues, no argument there (I hope). It is more sophisticated than Jazz technically.

If you say it brings out the "gentleman in you", or talking about classiness, you're getting into the social aspect of sophistication. There are those who feel being a Jazz fan also brings them to a certain elite level both technically and socially, also those in the fashion industry.



Captainnumber36 said:


> Certainly not how I choose to conduct my life, I value ethics and morals.


When you talk of ethics and morals, rather than just outward sophistication, then you don't mean sophistication actually, but nobility. I agree some Classical music seems to bring that out.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm glad you find New Age cheesy. In your OP, when you say Classical music is sophisticated, you're mixing 2 different meanings of the word "sophisticated" together, which have some people confused. Classical music is more sophisticated technically, and intellectually, than Pop or Blues, no argument there (I hope). It is more sophisticated than Jazz technically.
> 
> If you say it brings out the "gentleman in you", or talking about classiness, you're getting into the social aspect of sophistication. There are those who feel being a Jazz fan also brings them to a certain elite level both technically and socially, also those in the fashion industry.
> 
> *When you talk of ethics and morals, rather than just outward sophistication, then you don't mean sophistication actually, but nobility. I agree some Classical music seems to bring that out*.


Didnt seem to bring out the best in Hitler though eh. All that rousing wagner and bruckner - great germanic music - bolstered his belief in the superiority of the germanic race and may have propelled him in his genocidal war against "inferior" races.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

stomanek said:


> Didnt seem to bring out the best in Hitler though eh. All that rousing wagner and bruckner - great germanic music - *bolstered his belief in the superiority of the germanic race and may have propelled him in his genocidal war against "inferior" races.*


Actually, that was inspired by the eugenics movement in the U.S. Don't think I'd be casting Bruckner as an Aryan superman.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Actually, that was inspired by the *eugenics movement in the U.S*. Don't think I'd be casting Bruckner as an Aryan superman.


Pardon??? :lol:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm glad you find New Age cheesy. In your OP, when you say Classical music is sophisticated, you're mixing 2 different meanings of the word "sophisticated" together, which have some people confused. Classical music is more sophisticated technically, and intellectually, than Pop or Blues, no argument there (I hope). It is more sophisticated than Jazz technically.
> 
> If you say it brings out the "gentleman in you", or talking about classiness, you're getting into the social aspect of sophistication. There are those who feel being a Jazz fan also brings them to a certain elite level both technically and socially, also those in the fashion industry.
> 
> When you talk of ethics and morals, rather than just outward sophistication, then you don't mean sophistication actually, but nobility. I agree some Classical music seems to bring that out.


Great post, you helped dissect my words in this thread and summarize them all in one post.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I did answer, but shall do it more explicitly. Calm temperament, minding manners, eloquent speech and etc.


Sounds exciting. Where's the party? I hope there's a food fight.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

bulldog said:


> sounds exciting. Where's the party? I hope there's a food fight.


! Food fight!


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

samm said:


> I'm kinda suspicious of music that comes to me too easily. After a shower and a meal I look at it again and see hackneyed chord progressions and lazy melodic patterns. Like writing, about 90% of the result probably comes from the polishing stage.
> 
> Of course when someone asks how long it took, I only mention the 15 minute inspiration for the bare bones. Makes me sound more like a genius.
> 
> I was already sophisticated and 'high-class' before I started listening to classical music. It may even have lowered my status.


Good point, all my favorite works of mine took more time to compose. I got lazy in the latter years of college, time to get back to the hard work.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Pardon???


No need to beg pardon, it's not that widely known:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2019)

Phil loves classical said:


> Classical music is more sophisticated technically, and intellectually, than Pop or Blues, *no argument there (I hope)*. It is more sophisticated than Jazz technically.


Some hope. Of course there is an argument there, and you'll find it regularly popping up, both in passing comment and the subject of whole threads. (With me on the side challenging the proposition).

I don't think you can have been paying attention!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I read a lot of hesitation around here to describe CM as classy or sophisticated. I can understand wanting to break down that barrier that keeps new listeners (especially young ones) from listening, but shouldn't we give credit where it's due?
> 
> I personally feel a higher degree of class while listening to CM, but not in any egotistical kind of a way. It just brings out the class in my soul, the gentleman within.
> 
> ...


I would say it requires a certain level of intelligence to appreciate CM. 
Take football fan-atics aka FB nuts. Not many among that herd who listens to CM.
Lets exapnd, 
among CM fans, we have multiple levels. 
The pre 1900 romantic fans vs the post 1900 modernists. 
That divide is for real and will never be bridged. 
So among CM fans we also have different levels of *scholars*. 
I would say only 1% of the world's pop likes/enjoys CM. 
making the rest of the 99%,,something *other*. 
We are living in roman times, pagan days, the old greek classicism is defunct. = CM holds no value, only the $ factor is real/valid. Materialism vs spiritualism.

btw I should say, it was both Ravel and Henze who believed in the ancient greek ideas of classical archetypal beauty and devoted their life and creative energies to this great task of reviving the greek ideals of beauty in music.
Both achieved success.

WE few are the torch bearers of the great art of CM. 
Yet even in our group there is sharp divides. 
*camps* so to speak, which one member here accuses me of *tripping out*.
Will FB/sports nuts ever awaken to this great living art of CM?? 
Ever?
Can't force feed them.
=*you can take a horse to water, but can't make him drink*
A dumb mule will always be just that.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Beethoven's music is quite complex,


oh really...


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Take football fan-atics aka FB nuts. Not many among that herd who listens to CM.
> Lets exapnd,


Why pick on football fans? There are millions of people out there, of all types, who loathe CM and have no intention of getting into it. That doesn't mean they are lacking in intelligence.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

paulbest said:


> I would say it requires a certain level of intelligence to appreciate CM.
> Take football fan-atics aka FB nuts. Not many among that herd who listens to CM.
> .......................
> Will FB/sports nuts ever awaken to this great living art of CM??
> ...


Well that's the death knell for this Liverpool FC supporters aspirations......ah well, back to Slade....c'mon you Reds....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> Well that's the death knell for this Liverpool FC supporters aspirations......ah well, back to Slade....c'mon you Reds....


are you suggesting, if i attend one of those London FB matches and make this idea very clear, ,,,perhaps i may find myself flying over the crowd tossed around like at one of those grunge concerts. 
I've heard some FB fans can get quite riled up at times
I wouldn;t want to disturb a hornets nest.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

MacLeod said:


> Why pick on football fans? There are millions of people out there, of all types, who loathe CM and have no intention of getting into it. That doesn't mean they are lacking in intelligence.


Well sure , take The Don (Trump) I mean you can 't get to be prez w/o some level of intelligence,,so does he like CM?
I take it he does not.
Which backs my thesis , that the majority of college grads, have low interest in CM. 
Which backs my idea, there are several types of intelligence. 
I would add, interest and to the degree of this passion, determines the level of a certain TYPE of intelligence.
Take the piece i am listening to now,. Schoenberg's 6 songs, Naxos release, Craft Project , I find this work more interesting than Strauss more famous last 4 songs. 
It takes a certain level of finesse to hear levels of art.
The general public , is cut off from CM. 
They may be engineers, lawyers , but they are limited in the appreciation of the HIGH ARTS. 
Which to me means they may be on the level of say a slug or a worm in that regard.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Lol, there's some sweeping stereotypical statements on this thread. I use FB, am a huge football fan and was born on a Manchester housing estate. Hardly credentials for listening to such 'sophisticated'' music. I need to confess something. I hate CM. I only come here to laugh at you posh cello nerds, sitting in your drawing rooms in the leafy shires listening to Vaughan Williams, whist reading The Times. In reality, I love the music of Miley Cyrus and run a strip / karaoke bar in Blackpool, called 'Melons'. BTW, if you ask for me at the door I'll give you a complimentary bottle of Stella and one of our new t-shirts which says "I've seen Melons" on the front.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

It doesn't take more intelligence imo.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

...............


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Merl said:


> BTW, if you ask for me at the door I'll give you a complimentary bottle of Stella and one of our new t-shirts which says "I've seen Melons" on the front.


That reminds me of the t-shirts from Chilkoot Charlie's in Anchorage: "We cheat the other guy and pass on the savings to you."


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## guangzhou (Dec 16, 2018)

Classical music may be "sophisticated" in the sense that it builds on the history and traditions of Western music (things like operas, symphonies, concertos, sonatas etc.). I don't think there is any thing less sophisticated with other classifications of music (whether that is jazz or punk or gamelan etc.) other than the fact that they may not be composed by building with the traditional western conventions in mind. Maybe consider how sophisticated contemporary experimental and minimalist or medieval era music may fit into what you believe to be sophisticated music. I suspect you might be pigeonholing classical music to just mean classical or romantic era music which certainly might have a sophisticated kind of appeal for many people today.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2019)

guangzhou said:


> Classical music may be "sophisticated" in the sense that it builds on the history and traditions of Western music (things like operas, symphonies, concertos, sonatas etc.).


Which prompts me to observe that one of the most essential components in many CM symphonies is the dance movement. In some cases, they're all dances. Just fancy-dan noodling with a 40-piece band for the courtly ladies and gents to (not) swing their hips and get on down. Frankly, I'd rather the gutsy honesty of pop and rock dance moves than "sophistication".


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> Which prompts me to observe that one of the most essential components in many CM symphonies is the dance movement. In some cases, they're all dances. Just fancy-dan noodling with a 40-piece band for the courtly ladies and gents to (not) swing their hips and get on down. Frankly, I'd rather the gutsy honesty of pop and rock dance moves than "sophistication".


I'd much prefer going out for waltz dancing than "grinding" and "twerking".


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I don't look down on common folks ignoring CM, their loss. I'd rather be cave man poor with my CM favs than sitting on Rothchilds gold and have no soul for this music. 
I do look down on folks who possess great wealth, yet no passion for CM.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'd much prefer going out for waltz dancing than "grinding" and "twerking".


Well neither grinding nor twerking feature much in my repertoire of dance moves either, but last time I attempted ballroom, I trod on my partner's feet too much, so I'll stick with jigging and smooching.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

paulbest said:


> I don't look down on common folks ignoring CM, their loss. I'd rather be cave man poor with my CM favs than sitting on Rothchilds gold and have no soul for this music.
> *I do look down on folks who possess great wealth, yet no passion for CM.*


People who worship financial wealth - are probably not going to have much time for anything else.

If I was a multi billionaire I would fund my own opera house etc.


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

I guess it's more "sophisticated", sure, but I think of classical music as a great gift to the world that so many people are missing out on, maybe from peer pressure or stigma. It's sad that so few people listen to it, when compared to rest of the world


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## Swosh (Feb 25, 2018)

Oh my goodness, I would do SO much for music if I was a multi billionaire haha.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Unfortunately, whether one feels CM to be_ sophisticated_ or not is probably a reflection of that individual's broader Weltanschaung. One either loves music per se and is willing to listen and appreciate this art form, in all its multifarious permutations, as aural expressions of mans' creative potential, or one adopts a more materialistic view of music - and there are many here who appear to do just that.

Claiming CM to be _sophisticated_ in this case becomes nothing more than a statement of social snobbery, ironically revealing such claimants to be embarrassingly unsophisticated in their appreciation of CM and music in general.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2019)

KRoad said:


> Unfortunately, whether one feels CM to be_ sophisticated_ or not is probably a reflection of that individual's broader *Weltanschaung*.


I love that word!

I'm not sure your 'either/or' is quite so cut and dried. It's possible to have a more nuanced position falling between two extremes. I think I'm probably more your first than your second, but I've already admitted to a degree of snobbery. It's difficult not to be aware of the social implications of musical tastes and not to fall prey from time to time.


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

What I find amusing in this thread is how those who don't think classical music tends toward sophistication so readily assert their personal superiority over those who do.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> It's difficult not to be aware of the social implications of musical tastes and not to fall prey from time to time.


The social implications you refer to and those who succumb to such awful pretentiousness goes some way towards explaining the ambivalent feelings I have about this forum in general. Happily, it is not all bad and there are some very solid contributors with considerable musical insight.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Some definitions of "sophisticated" according to the Cambridge dictionary:

"Intelligent or made in a complicated way and therefore able to do complicated tasks."

"If a way of thinking, a system, or a machine is sophisticated, it is complicated or made with great skill."

Synonyms of "sophisticated" according to Google: "advanced, highly developed, innovatory, trailblazing, revolutionary; modern, ultramodern, futuristic, avant-garde, state of the art, the latest, new, the newest, up to the minute; complex, complicated, elaborate, intricate, subtle, delicate; gimmicky."

Synonyms of "classy": stylish, high-class, superior, exclusive, chic, elegant, smart, sophisticated, fancy; expensive; upmarket; high-toned, upscale; informalposh, ritzy, plush, plushy, swanky, snazzy; informalswish; informalswank, tony; informalon fleek.

Usually, composers of CM have an extensive training on instrument techniques and music theory that they apply to their works - it's a kind of "scientific" approach, based on knowledge, my perception says. The making of CM tends to consider proportions, mathematical relations, a wide range of compositional techniques and concepts, counterpoint, subtle use of dynamics, instrumentation and other aspects of music, development of musical themes and ideas, modulations and key relationships: there's an intrinsic craft related to it's elaboration. Popular music, in opposition, seems to me much more related to intuitively making things just "sound good": it's generally much more based on raw talent than in carefully planned considerations, I believe. Therefore, I think that it's fair to say that typically classical music is more elaborate, intricate, subtle, complex, influential, developed and innovative or, in one word, sophisticated, than non-classical, and I have to agree with the OP on this point.

I don't get the idea of CM as being "classy" though, at least not if it's a synomym of "stylish, high-class, superior, exclusive, chic, elegant, expensive". The music of a Lully or of a Händel may have been targeted at aristocratic patrons, but today anyone with access to the internet can instantly listen to a good deal of their oeuvre and to that of many other classical composers at any moment for free. And a CM concert usually is not more expensive than, say, a rock or a pop concert. One likes it, one listens to it. As simple as that IMO. One doesn't need to pertain to some particular social class or to be a gentleman to enjoy it, I suppose. I consider important to know the historical context within certain compositions were made, and I believe that some works may be more rewarding to listeners that have some understanding of music theory, but I also believe that these things, or at least a considerable part of them, can also be acquired via web with time.

I listen to classical because I like it - no, because I love, love it. I don't care if it's chic or not, but I admire the sophistication that in many moments it has.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Great posts, 
Those outside of the appreciations of this great art, who are they?
Just normal every day *joes and mary's*. 
To miss out in partaking of these great priceless treasures, I mean , exactly whats left? 
Relationships with loved ones, travel, books. 
With divorces on the rise, travel? who has time and cash,,,books? most read trash anyway,,,the one thing we few devotees have which this world does not, is involving our life within the great creative powers of this art. 
I like to travel out west, but i always remember its harsh conditions most of the year there. So travel is not sustaining. Books are great sources for knowledge and raises us up higher above common man. 
CM also has this holy power to raise us up above this world. 
It has nothing to do with ego superiority. 
We are different than the avg common man. 
And this we should never forget. 
We are the light bearers of a higher consciousness. 
read up on the Eleusinian mysteries, its all there. 
We are a superior race, we have a different blood flowing through our veins.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

oh this is what i wanted to add in the post,,,take pop/rock music, sure some of it is facinating, country, , death metal,,,grunge,,,if i were young and living in Portalnd, i'd be front line grunde, with death metal thrown in...anyway,,,take the great old rock groups. 
Lets say The Allman Brothers. They could put ona good show ,,and also a bad show,,,just depends on how much druggs they had going on. 
The old rock groups was all fake,,w/o the drugs Iron Butterfly could not play Inagaddavida. 
The drugs made the song. Its all fake,,take country, , if you see these groups w/o the high tecg gizmos, and also yrs after the hit came out,,,the group is like running on half cylinders. all commercial muisc is just that. 
I've heard some old legends at Jazz fest here in New Orleans. What complete garbage. santana was complete trash..w/o a great keyboard,, he can not play. 
This was like 10 yrs ago. all pop/country, is fake, fraud, scam. snake oil .
The only real deal is CM. 
The rest is illuminati snake oil. Fit for folks under age 19 yrs old. ,,OK 21 perhaps. . At 22 the man should be interested in CM only and no other sounds.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I believe classical music has the widest possible emotional and spiritual range, not that other genres have none of it, from the most simple to the most complex, sophisticated and challenging. One can even find the dark side of life in it and it's rare to find that in any other kind of music because it's simply not commercial enough to please a popular audience.

"Classical Music" spans 1000+ years and a vast array of forms, genre, and styles. There are huge differences between various works. Folk Music may have a history just as old and just as wide-ranging... but lacked the advantage of being preserved by the originators in the form of a written score. Popular Music barely has a history of over 100 years... with the development of mass production, audio recording, radio, Film, TV, etc...

It was pointed out by a member here some years ago that the very term "Classical Music" was rather recent (outside of its use in defining the period of Mozart, Haydn, etc...) and employed in a snobbish manner to differentiate the music of the wealthy, educated "elite" as opposed to that of the masses. Personally I quite love some of the work of "populist" Art (Art, Music, Literature, Film, etc...) and find more than a little of that pandering to the "elite" to be some of the ugliest, most pretentious twaddle ever created. Your milage may vary.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well any old bloke can get pop/country, even death metal,,,but CM, this requires some level of sophistication.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Allerius said:


> Some definitions of "sophisticated" according to the Cambridge dictionary:
> 
> "Intelligent or made in a complicated way and therefore able to do complicated tasks."
> 
> ...


When I say classy, I mean high class music, not speaking financial status though. It's refined, and I associate refined with classiness.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> When I say classy, I mean high class music, not speaking financial status though. It's refined, and I associate refined with classiness.


Are you suggesting that the liking of high class music is associated with social status in some way? For example, do you mean that people who like classical music are more likely to be in a higher social demographic group (as per their academic qualifications, job etc) than people who like, say, rap or general pop?

If you are, I'm not necessarily disputing it as I haven't looked at the recent demographic data assuming there is something of relevance to look at, but I just want to be clear what you mean by "classy".

Assuming that you do mean classy in the sense of social status, I have three further questions:

One is do you think that one's musical tastes are a good indicator of social status, or does it work only in exceptional circumstances with certain types of music? How would you rate "jazz" or "country", for example?

How do you deal with situations where people like a range of music styles that includes classical among several others? Are their tastes "classy" only in respect of classical?

The other is how would you describe the type of classical music that people say they like if is characterised purely by the sort of 5 minute snippets they play on popular "classic fm" radio stations. You know the sort of thing: a Mozart aria, the 1812 overture, Valse Triste, bits of the Moonlight Sonata, etc. Would you describe this sort of classical music as classy? What about the social status of people who like only this sort of classical music, but nothing longer?


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Partita said:


> Are you suggesting that the liking of high class music is associated with social status in some way? For example, do you mean that people who like classical music are more likely to be in a higher social demographic group (as per their academic qualifications, job etc) than people who like, say, rap or general pop?
> 
> If you are, I'm not necessarily disputing it as I haven't looked at the recent demographic data assuming there is something of relevance to look at, but I just want to be clear what you mean by "classy".
> 
> ...


Try reading the statement by me you quoted again and then try also responding again. I have no desire to discuss what taste says about a person, only to state that CM is classy and sophisticated (refined).


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Try reading the statement by me you quoted again and then try also responding again. I have no desire to discuss what taste says about a person, only to state that CM is classy and sophisticated (refined).


I see that you have made a similar reply to other people.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm not sure that I am among a group who are 100% sophisticated or clever when I participate in this forum. I guess we are an older group than you would find on most internet forums but that is not the same thing at all. I don't know if I am a typical classical music fan but I listen to and know a lot of classical music and have multiple recordings of many works. But I do not think I am so sophisticated myself ... but I am not dumb.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> . But I do not think I am so sophisticated myself ... but I am not dumb.


This is is a fair statement, many of us, including myself, have no music EDU, but that does not prevent us from devoting our time and energies to this great srt, We just feel we are above the avg joe /the common man , who shows no interest in this great culture of high art. 
We few are unique, we stand above those on the outside. 
Art raises the soul above this world.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Partita said:


> I see that you have made a similar reply to other people.


B/C some of your questions are answered in the quoted response. I said it is not associated with financial status.


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## Iota (Jun 20, 2018)

paulbest said:


> We just feel we are above the avg joe /the common man , who shows no interest in this great culture of high art.
> We few are unique, we stand above those on the outside.


Does that not seem suspiciously like an illusion to you? The human imagination is capable of making a quasi miraculous experience out of all sorts of things, some simple, some complex, some art, some not.

I don't downplay the power of music to move, but I think one can assert quite confidently that the transcendent experience is certainly not limited to classical music. Many roads to Rome etc.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

paulbest said:


> This is is a fair statement, many of us, including myself, have no music EDU, but that does not prevent us from devoting our time and energies to this great srt, We just feel we are above the avg joe /the common man , who shows no interest in this great culture of high art.
> We few are unique, we stand above those on the outside.
> Art raises the soul above this world.


I take pride in my tastes and don't have the same level of respect for all forms of music, nor do I think I should, but I only judge individuals, not entire fanbases of a band/group.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Iota said:


> Does that not seem suspiciously like an illusion to you? The human imagination is capable of making a quasi miraculous experience out of all sorts of things, some simple, some complex, some art, some not.
> 
> I don't downplay the power of music to move, but I think one can assert quite confidently that the transcendent experience is certainly not limited to classical music. Many roads to Rome etc.


Oh yes, no doubt about it. 
Books, the right ones, are a source for knowledge which hopefully leads to EDU and eventually wisdom/understanding.
Seeing the great red wood forests, the grand canyon other places, is quite transcendental. 
watching nature, whats left of it, is also spiritual. 
Music is just 1 part to the great experience of spirit. But the most accessible. Most powerful of all experiences.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

now here is my point. Bach never wrote anything in this style of Vivaldi.


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## numinisgos (May 10, 2017)

Adorno et sequente


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Those for whom English is not a native language should note that, in American English at least, the word "classy" is never used unironically by anyone with class.  In fact, it tends to signify the cheesiest kind of misguided pretension. Steve Buscemi's character in _Fargo_, when he tries to impress a bored Minnesota hooker ("With Jose Feliciano you got no complaints." ) aspires to classiness.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

well sure, class status means nothing in CM. 
My guess is most of us here on TC are middle class earners to just below, I am below middle class. I've been poor all my life. CM appreciation reveals how a man is alive to this great art, he is alive to life. 
My guess is all the studies in CM /psyche relations, will show how important this art is to health of a soul. 
There are plenty of studies showing how CM affects the brain centers, the emotive levels, depression /anxiety etc etc. 
Moms in pregnancy listening to Mozart, babies having low levels of CM being played in the rooms, all these tests will show how CM holds hidden powers of health and healing. 
It is just a matter of time til man becomes aware of these decades old research. 
I'd guess half the anti depressants would be canceled if everyone taking such snake oil pills, began a journey in CM. 
We are talking about the MED Illuminati industry taking a 1T hit. 
Stock market would tumble 1K points, and not recover those lost points. 
In 100 yrs, CM might wipe out all antidepressants snake oil .


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

If someone wants to have class, listening CM isn't enough. He must know much more things than Beethoven and Liszt... Literature, poetry, philosophy, history, etc. are among them. All these together are doing one thing: EDUCATION. One bird alone NEVER brings the spring.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The sophisticated people I’ve known are relatively private and quiet; they simply follow their own interests, including in the classics, and continue to develop as human beings in wisdom and in their knowledge of the world, from the simple to the complex. They share what they know to be of service and not to feel superior.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

paulbest said:


> Great posts,
> Those outside of the appreciations of this great art, who are they?
> Just normal every day *joes and mary's*.
> To miss out in partaking of these great priceless treasures, I mean , exactly whats left?
> ...


Of course you're just trolling, but considering that your post came just after mine, I'm inclined to believe that you and perhaps other members may somehow think that I agree with what you just stated. That's false. I argued that CM can overall be considered more "sophisticated" (in the way it was defined in post #103) than non-classical, but I didn't say - and I don't even agree with that - that it's listeners are necessarily more sophisticated than those of other genres. Actually, when I say that "one likes it, one listens to it" refering to CM I think I've made clear my position on this subject.

I also think that the (supposed) fact that classical is "more sophisticated" does not mean automatically that it's "better". Other genres may surpass CM in additional characteristics, and those who believe that these are more important may argue that classical is "inferior" in these aspects. For example, I don't think that CM can compete with metal in terms of the raw energy of it's performances; with pop when it comes to the use of tunes that cause immediate appeal; with jazz in terms of improvisations that make free use of acoustic dissonances that sound good and natural; etc. My experience suggests that classical covers a wider range of sensations, particularly emotions, than other genres, and this, together with it's remarkable details and my personal affinitity with it's aesthetics can make me think of it as "better" to me. But to extend this to absolute terms would be totally debatable in my opinion.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

I listen to different kinds of music, including classical. All culturally important genres of music have works of genius, and dreck. The ultimate limit is the human mind and spirit. I find great works in other genres to be on the same level as the great works of classical music. Different genres facilitate different types of expression. Classical music has evolved large scale forms which facilitate an an expansive, almost architectural beauty. Smaller forms (classical and non-classical) facilitate the production of perfect gems of creativity.

Sophistication, I believe, means being able to appreciate beauty in whatever form it takes, whether a novel, a poem, a sculpture, a painting, Mahler symphony, a John Coltrane improvisation, etc.


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