# Peaceful Symphonies (not bombastic)



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

This is a thread to post symphonies that are not imposing or invasive (not in your face); symphonies you find to be peaceful; music that looms in the background as a compliment. 

Example: Górecki Symphony No.3


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## Adair (Feb 9, 2016)

For me, the Honegger Symphony No. 3 (Liturgique).


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Valentin Silvestrov - Symphony 5

The whole thing is like a single massive Mahler adagio. It's great.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Turangalîla symphony


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Morimur said:


> Turangalîla symphony


Right behind Schnittke's 1st!

How about Mahler No.4


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Schubussy said:


> Valentin Silvestrov - Symphony 5
> 
> The whole thing is like a single massive Mahler adagio. It's great.


Never heard of this symphony before. "Like a massive Mahler adagio," you say? No time to waste, I have to listen to this immediately.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Just get Max Richter's Sleep and lie down.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Morimur said:


> Turangalîla symphony


Peaceful, yeah right, ( They're coming to take you away to the funny farm ):lol:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Beethoven's 6th. Of course there is a thunderstorm in it, but that does not disturb the peace for me.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Although not a symphony, I would suggest John Adams: Common Tones in Simple Time -- highly meditative music that explores colors of the orchestra


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

RVW 3, 5 and much of 7


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Schubussy said:


> Valentin Silvestrov - Symphony 5
> 
> The whole thing is like a single massive Mahler adagio. It's great.


I agree, *Silvestrov's* Fifth is a wonderful work, like watching a leaf unfolds itself in its natural course. I'll also mention:


*Erkki Melartin*: Fourth Symphony.
*Sibelius*: Sixth Symphony.
*Tubin*: Fourth Symphony.
*Glazunov*: Third Symphony.
*Vaughan-Williams*: Symphonies III & V.
*Bax*: Symphonies nos. III & VII.
*William Grant Still*: Symphony no. II "Song of a New Race" (Truly sublime).
*Dvorak*: Fifth Symphony.
*Mahler*: Fourth Symphony (certainly not bombastic, but in some ways, quite reflective).
*Myaskovsky*: Fifth Symphony (also nos. XIII, XX, XXIII, XXV).
*Janis Ivanovs*: Symphony no. XIV "Sinfonia da camera."
*Bruckner*: Seventh Symphony.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Adair said:


> For me, the Honegger Symphony No. 3 (Liturgique).


Really? The first I thought of when I saw this title was Honegger 4 (because I listened to it recently), which is an entirely different prospect than the 3rd


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## Adair (Feb 9, 2016)

dgee said:


> Really? The first I thought of when I saw this title was Honegger 4 (because I listened to it recently), which is an entirely different prospect than the 3rd


The ending of the 3rd is very peaceful to me. Healing.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> Example: Górecki Symphony No.3


Given the subject matter, 'peaceful' is not the word I would use to describe this symphony. That being said, I know what you mean by 'less imposing and invasive'.
I'd like to suggest movements 2,3 & 4 of Mahler's 3rd (as long as a symphony on their own); beautiful and often very gentle music. Also not mentioned yet is Prokofiev's 7th.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Silvestrov No. 5 is worth listening to once. After that you might want to skip everything until halfway the third movement... once you've heard it, the rest of the symphony is just not worth the wait anymore. It's empty and it gets tedious.. (and that's coming from someone who's into ambient and drone music). Well, just another opinion.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

There are some real comedians on this forum right enough :lol:
Cant see the point in a peaceful symphony though. Has to be some contrasts and a decent climax. 
For peacefull works I woul plump for tone poems or similar.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Silvestrov No. 5 is worth listening to once. After that you might want to skip everything until halfway the third movement... once you've heard it, the rest of the symphony is just not worth the wait anymore. It's empty and it gets tedious.. (and that's coming from someone who's into ambient and drone music). Well, just another opinion.


Parts of it do drag, but I think the best parts are so good it makes it all worth the wait. I can't say the same for all of Silvestrov's other music though!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I've always enjoyed the relative but definitely non-soporific tranquility of Bliss' _A Colour Symphony_.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Adair said:


> For me, the Honegger Symphony No. 3 (Liturgique).


I agree whole heartedly.:lol:

Wait are you partly serious? Because that beginning sounds about as close to a catastrophic event as someone from those times was capable of imagining.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

My favorite peaceful symphony is Beethoven's Sixth, especially the first two movements.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2016)

Arvo Pärt

Symphony no. 4.

Bombastless


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2016)

Gloria Coates' symphonies.

Bombast is so last century.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> I've always enjoyed the relative but definitely non-soporific tranquility of Bliss' _A Colour Symphony_.


ROFL!

I can second that!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> I've always enjoyed the relative but definitely non-soporific tranquility of Bliss' _A Colour Symphony_.


Although for non-soporific tranquility there is always Bantock's Pagan and Nielsen's 5th symphonies.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Vaughan Williams' 3rd. It makes his 5th sound like Carmina Burana. 

Ives 3rd is fairly sedate.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Allan Pettersson's 9th symphony
Jón Leifs' 1st symphony (Saga)


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

William Schuman's 3rd and 5th symphonies.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)




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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Ok, I'll second the mention(s) of Vaughan Williams 3, Mahler 4, and I'll add anything by Mozart because every time I try to listen to a Mozart symphony I invariably fall asleep, so they must be really peaceful...


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

dogen said:


> Arvo Pärt
> 
> Symphony no. 4.
> 
> Bombastless


This is a good recommendation. I second.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Seconding already mentioned Sibelius 6, Dvorak 5. Maybe also Mendelssohn 4; it's a bit more vivid but still light of foot.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Xaltotun said:


> Seconding already mentioned Sibelius 6, Dvorak 5. Maybe also Mendelssohn 4; it's a bit more vivid but still light of foot.


I love Sibelius No.6. I have the Karajan recording, but it's too much of a hassle to dig it out, so I always try to listen on youtube, but the damn video is interspersed with ads. I'm probably going to have to dig it out.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Schubussy said:


> Valentin Silvestrov - Symphony 5
> 
> The whole thing is like a single massive Mahler adagio. It's great.


Having listened to this I can now comment. This was a good recommendation, though I can only wonder whether this piece has true staying power? I think people who like the music of Boulez would really enjoy this symphony.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

Yeah like DeepR said, Silvestrov does tend to meander a lot. His 'Requiem for Larissa' is worth checking out too, but the 5th is his best symphony from the ones I've heard at least and easily his most popular one.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Schubert Unfinished. Agitated, maybe; but not bombastic.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

dsphipps100 said:


> every time I try to listen to a Mozart symphony I invariably fall asleep, so they must be really peaceful...


To sleep through the final movement of the _Jupiter_ is to sleep the sleep from which there is no awakening.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Beethoven's 6th. Of course there is a thunderstorm in it, but that does not disturb the peace for me.


You can always edit out the thunderstorm movement.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of my favorite peaceful symphonies is the Third Symphony by Charles Ives.

A wonderful evocation of a bygone New England summer custom of country church services with communion followed by happy picnics-kids playing, adults socializing, ending with peaceful church bells ringing.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> To sleep through the final movement of the _Jupiter_ is to sleep the sleep from which there is no awakening.


I know it's just a matter of personal taste, of course, and it's certainly great that you enjoy it so much...but, well, just to test myself, I found the Mackeras/Scottish Chamber Orchestra recording on YouTube just now (I figure that ought to be of reasonably high quality), and it just all sounds so...._classical_ to my ears. I'll freely admit that I'm something of a renegade, but for most of my life, I've had a very difficult time having any interest in anything written before Beethoven. And it's just me, I certainly do not suggest that there's anything wrong with people who do enjoy pre-Beethoven music. Anyway, I need some Berlioz after that....


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

All symphonies are peaceful with the volume turned low.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Wood said:


> All symphonies are peaceful with the volume turned low.


Yes, but some like Prokofievs third or Honeggers third(or any written by Allan Peterson), will sound sinister or ominous even with low volume.


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## njk345 (Feb 14, 2016)

Albeit a bit dramatic (but in a highly consonant, uplifting way) in the final movement, I've always found Sibelius' 5th symohony to have a mellow, peaceful vibe. That final movement does have a rather fantastic brass chorale leading into the end though!


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Schubussy said:


> Valentin Silvestrov - Symphony 5
> 
> The whole thing is like a single massive Mahler adagio. It's great.


One more comment on this excellent and unique recommendation. I don't want to downplay this piece. I've been listening to it all day, and can say, it seems to be getting better with time. Very good choice for non-invasive.  And I agree, it is somewhat like an extended Mahler adagio.


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Beethoven's 6th.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Feldman's Coptic Light


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Feldman's Coptic Light


I find that Feldman is generally good at being non-invasive. His timing, and non-aggressive style, always seems to cast his music as a compliment sounding in the distance.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> You can always edit out the thunderstorm movement.


Except that Beethoven probably would roll over in his grave if I did that!

Besides, that would ruin the symphony. The thunderstorm tends to emphasize the peacefulness of the rest of the symphony.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Klassic said:


> I find that Feldman is generally good at being non-invasive. His timing, and non-aggressive style, always seems to cast his music as a compliment sounding in the distance.


I agree that his rhythms and timing and sense of large scale are incredible.

I think thought, that rather than a compliment sounding in the distance, that Feldman contains the highest intensity of a vast ocean of spiritual boundlessness. It's as if the pleading gestures of Webern were stretched in time to the highest mountains.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Klassic said:


> I love Sibelius No.6. I have the Karajan recording, but it's too much of a hassle to dig it out, so I always try to listen on youtube, but the damn video is interspersed with ads. I'm probably going to have to dig it out.


If you just use Chrome you can add an ad blocker and never have to deal with YouTube ads again. I use Ad Blocker Plus. Cool little addon.

Kevin


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Kevin Pearson said:


> If you just use Chrome you can add an ad blocker and never have to deal with YouTube ads again. I use Ad Blocker Plus. Cool little addon.
> 
> Kevin


AdBlock Plus only removes ads which are part of the page layout and works by recognizing URLs and not rendering them while assembling the pge. It seems that Klassic is referring to ads which are embedded into the video and no adblocker will be able to address those.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Becca said:


> AdBlock Plus only removes ads which are part of the page layout and works by recognizing URLs and not rendering them while assembling the pge. It seems that Klassic is referring to ads which are embedded into the video and no adblocker will be able to address those.


If you're frustrated by the "Click here to subscribe!" pop-ups and other annotations that clutter up many YouTube videos, you can quickly disable them from the site options page. You'll need to be signed in for the changes to take effect.

Click on the avatar icon in the top-right corner of any YouTube page and then select the cog icon to head into settings. Open the Playback section and untick the box marked "Show annotations, channel promotions and interactive cards on videos." Once you click Save, you're good to go.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

dsphipps100 said:


> If you're frustrated by the "Click here to subscribe!" pop-ups and other annotations that clutter up many YouTube videos, you can quickly disable them from the site options page. You'll need to be signed in for the changes to take effect.
> 
> Click on the avatar icon in the top-right corner of any YouTube page and then select the cog icon to head into settings. Open the Playback section and untick the box marked "Show annotations, channel promotions and interactive cards on videos." Once you click Save, you're good to go.


Interesting, I hadn't looked for that, but of course that is only applicable if you have a Google/YouTube account AND are logged into it at the time that you are playing the video.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Becca said:


> Interesting, I hadn't looked for that, but of course that is only applicable if you have a Google/YouTube account AND are logged into it at the time that you are playing the video.


I guess it just comes down to whether or not it's worth it to sign up for a Google account and be logged in on it. If it makes any difference, it's free to sign up for an account and to be logged in on it.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

Becca said:


> AdBlock Plus only removes ads which are part of the page layout and works by recognizing URLs and not rendering them while assembling the pge. It seems that Klassic is referring to ads which are embedded into the video and no adblocker will be able to address those.


I'm not sure about AdBlock Plus, but AdBlock blocks YouTube ads for me. I never see them.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Becca said:


> AdBlock Plus only removes ads which are part of the page layout and works by recognizing URLs and not rendering them while assembling the pge. It seems that Klassic is referring to ads which are embedded into the video and no adblocker will be able to address those.


Not fully true Becca. Have never seen another ad since using Adblock embedded or otherwise. I used to get frustrated with the ads showing and a friend told me about Adblock and that was the end of that.

Kevin


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

I find that, by using AdBlock Plus combined with signing into my (free) Google account on YouTube so that I can turn off the annotations, etc, that I'm not getting any popup ads anywhere. And it cost me absolutely zilcho.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Kevin Pearson said:


> If you just use Chrome you can add an ad blocker and never have to deal with YouTube ads again. I use Ad Blocker Plus. Cool little addon.
> 
> Kevin


Thanks Kevin. Will this work on an iPad?


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Klassic said:


> Thanks Kevin. Will this work on an iPad?


I don't know but if Adblock plus makes a plugin for Safari then the answer would be yes. I'm not an Apple fan so I can't answer with any definiteness.

Kevin


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Morimur said:


> Allan Pettersson's 9th symphony
> Jón Leifs' 1st symphony (Saga)


 .........................


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Wood said:


> All symphonies are peaceful with the volume turned low.


And with Maximianno Cobra as conductor.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Sloe said:


> And with Maximianno Cobra.


Reminds me of the Mahler 9th Adagio I've been looking for. Some conductor (can't remember who) brought it in at over 40 minutes. I want that recording!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Mozart sy 29 in a major. k201


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Klassic said:


> Reminds me of the Mahler 9th Adagio I've been looking for, some conductor (can't remember who) brought it in at over 40 minutes. I want that recording!


Morbid curiosity?


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

dsphipps100 said:


> Ok, I'll second the mention(s) of Vaughan Williams 3, Mahler 4, and I'll add anything by Mozart because every time *I try to listen to a Mozart symphony I invariably fall asleep,* so they must be really peaceful...


Put sy no 35 on and try to fall asleep with the 1st mvt playing.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Rontgen: Symphony 8 - very calm and peaceful: the Minor key signature (C#) is deceptive.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

stomanek said:


> Put sy no 35 on and try to fall asleep with the 1st mvt playing.


I took your advice and put on the Scottish Chamber Orchestra recording on YouTube conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras. They certainly do an excellent job of playing it, and there is a great deal of dynamic contrast. I think the thing(s) that make the difference for me is that, after Beethoven, it was considered OK for the music to be "shocking" - at least on occasion. Before Beethoven, it comes across as if music was supposed to be either "delightful" or "religious/spiritual" sounding, both of which boil down to "correct" sounding.

Oh, I know, Haydn was creative at playing his little "shocking" games with his music, like the Farewell Symphony, or the "Surprise" Symphony (in which the "surprise" is, by today's standards, so mundane that program notes now have to commonly point out where it is so the modern listener knows to be (ahem) "surprised" when the moment arrives), but it's all in good fun, right?

Well, then we have Beethoven come along, and now people are suddenly starting to squirm in their seats. (What IS it with those gigantic dissonances in the Eroica's development section? And where does he get off writing codas that are so long that they basically amount to a second development-recapitulation?) And then, oh boy, here comes Berlioz, with marches to a beheading, a witch's celebration that would even do Shakespeare proud, and music was never the same again afterward.

I guess I'm just a renegade at heart, so I tend to prefer composers whose music is the same way. And nobody before Beethoven had the guts and/or the personality and/or the means to be a true renegade and shove it down their society's throat, because everybody before Beethoven was dependent on some patron, be it a count or a bishop or whatever, for their income. Beethoven was the first financially independent composer, so he could do whatever the ______ he wanted, and if you had a problem with it, then there's the door at the back of the hall, and don't let it hit you in the derriere on the way out.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

dsphipps100 said:


> Oh, I know, Haydn was creative at playing his little "shocking" games with his music, like the Farewell Symphony, or the "Surprise" Symphony (in which the "surprise" is, by today's standards, so mundane that program notes now have to commonly point out where it is so the modern listener knows to be (ahem) "surprised" when the moment arrives), but it's all in good fun, right?
> 
> Well, then we have Beethoven come along, and now people are suddenly starting to squirm in their seats. (What IS it with those gigantic dissonances in the Eroica's development section? And where does he get off writing codas that are so long that they basically amount to a second development-recapitulation?) And then, oh boy, here comes Berlioz, with marches to a beheading, a witch's celebration that would even do Shakespeare proud, and music was never the same again afterward.
> 
> I guess I'm just a renegade at heart, so I tend to prefer composers whose music is the same way. And nobody before Beethoven had the guts and/or the personality and/or the means to be a true renegade and shove it down their society's throat, because everybody before Beethoven was dependent on some patron, be it a count or a biship or whatever, for their income. Beethoven was the first financially independent composer, so he could do whatever the ______ he wanted, and if you had a problem with it, then there's the door at the back of the hall.


FIRE! FIRE! FIRE! This is just my cup of tea; you speak to my own taste.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

dsphipps100 said:


> And nobody before Beethoven had the guts and/or the personality and/or the means to be a true renegade and shove it down their society's throat, because everybody before Beethoven was dependent on some patron, be it a count or a bishop or whatever, for their income.


You should listen to Rameau.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

dsphipps100 said:


> I guess I'm just a renegade at heart, so I tend to prefer composers whose music is the same way. And nobody before Beethoven had the guts and/or the personality and/or the means to be a true renegade and shove it down their society's throat, because everybody before Beethoven was dependent on some patron, be it a count or a bishop or whatever, for their income. Beethoven was the first financially independent composer, so he could do whatever the ______ he wanted, and if you had a problem with it, then there's the door at the back of the hall, and don't let it hit you in the derriere on the way out.


Not even wrong. Beethoven had patrons - he named a pretty famous piano trio after one of them; maybe you know it - and composers had been making their living from theater ticket sales for 200 years (including Mozart, who literally got his *** kicked out the door for insubordination, at which point he became a star opera composer and concert pianist) and from sheet music sales for longer than that.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> You should listen to Rameau.


I took your advice and found the Trio des Parques from Hippolyte et Aricie on YouTube. It's typical Baroque-era music, in that, rather than _expressing_ emotion, it denotes emotion or indicates it by such methods as we find in the "Doctrine of the Affections", wherein the art work at hand is supposed to remain "above" the emotions being evoked. Rather than causing the audience to instinctively _feel_ a certain way, they are informed through various techniques, such as a shift into minor mode or more subtly with techniques like descending melodic figures that, "Oh, by the way, this is the part where you're supposed to feel anguish", or whatever the emotion-at-hand might be. It's all very cerebral and abstract.

By way of contrast, in Mahler's 2nd Symphony (the "Resurrection"), about 90 seconds before the very end, there's a spot where the chorus ever so briefly sings a fortissimo descending chromatic figure of only 4-5 notes, and the amazingly powerful effect is that the absolute joy Mahler is trying to express is to the point that it brings tears to one's eyes. It is not necessary for a listener to be informed as such or trained to recognize what their proper response is to the moment, because the music is actually expressing the emotion that Mahler wishes to convey.

View attachment 81524


I'm also reminded of the moment in the 2001 film, "The Fellowship of the Ring" where Gandalf had just plunged into the abyss with the balrog, apparently dying in the process (for those who hadn't read/seen The Two Towers yet), and the music that accompanied the scene produced an _instinctive_ reaction. People in the audience were getting teary over the moment without even being consciously aware of the natural, intuitive effect the music was having on them.

I have noticed again and again and again and again when watching movies in theaters that people cry or cheer or clap or react in whatever way is called for, and they have absolutely no conscious awareness whatsoever that the reason the picture on the screen in front of them is having such a powerful effect is because of the MUSIC that is accompanying the scene. They are having a strong emotional reaction because of the music and they don't even realize it - it just happens instinctively. If you were to take the music away, the same scene would suddenly seem empty and void for some reason that would seem very strange to most people, because they are unaware of the instinctive power that music has over them.

During the "classical" period (Mozart/Haydn/etc.) there were some dabblings and experiments with the power of music to have such effects, but it wasn't until Beethoven that composers began throwing away all caution and pushing music to the greatest extremes they thought possible for their music to have the maximum, most powerful effect. This is precisely why (among other additional reasons, of course) Beethoven's 9th Symphony is such a dividing point in music history. There is music before Beethoven's 9th, and then there was music after, and the music world would never be the same again. The Ode to Joy doesn't merely denote or indicate joy like the Doctrine of the Affections calls for, it actually _expresses_ it. And it does so with such a powerful effect that, when it was time for Germany to celebrate the downfall of the Berlin Wall, they chose Beethoven's 9th to symbolize the exhilaration of the moment.

Such a thing in Rameau's day would have been so shocking that it would have defied description, and would certainly have provoked a very strong (and probably not very receptive) response from the people.

Imagine if you were to put a Baroque-style soundtrack into a movie like The Lord of the Rings. Can you conceive of the derisive response from the audience? They would feel such a disconnect between the music and what was happening on the screen that they would have at least as negative a response as the people in Rameau's day would have had to such emotional power being thrust on them by a modern film score or a Mahler symphony.

And I know what you're going to say - "That's because the people of one era were/are conditioned to respond in a certain way, while the people of another era were/are conditioned to respond in a different way."

To which I would point out that modern, post-Beethoven music does not require any "conditioning" whatsoever to evoke a response from its listener. It just happens. That's why you can walk into a movie theater, sit down, watch the movie, and get the full, effectual range of emotional response without anybody having to deliver a lecture beforehand on the "proper response to what you are about to witness".

We can certainly enhance our response by studying such things as formal structure, leitmotifs, the compositional background, etc. - but when Brunnhilde mounts that pyre and burns herself alive because she is so anguished without Siegfried as a part of her life, and thereby frees the entire world from the dark slavery of Alberich's denunciation of "love", and as the brass choir pounds out the "valhalla" leitmotif while the home of the gods collapses in flames and then the "transformation" leitmotif rises from the devastation to signal that the world is now free, nobody needs any formal training to have tears come to their eyes at that point.

View attachment 81525


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Uh oh. Listening to just that bit of Hippolyte et Aricie isn't going to do much for your appreciation of Rameau, an innovative composer who _did_ shock audiences in his day. And maybe you shouldn't look for the same things in pre-Romantic music that you look for in Romantic music, because you won't get them, and criticising Baroque composers for not being "emotional" in the way that Beethoven or Mahler are is a bit odd.

About conditioning: try any of what you said on people who have had minimal contact with Western culture. I don't think that's going to turn out the way you expect.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Chronochromie said:


> who _did_ shock audiences in his day.


Herein lies the problem.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

dsphipps100 said:


> During the "classical" period (Mozart/Haydn/etc.) there were some dabblings and experiments with the power of music to have such effects, but it wasn't until Beethoven that composers began throwing away all caution and pushing music to the greatest extremes they thought possible for their music to have the maximum, most powerful effect. Such a thing in Rameau's day would have been so shocking that it would have defied description, and would certainly have provoked a very strong (and probably not very receptive) response from the people.


The veterans can probably guess what this piece is going to be: 






dsphipps100 said:


> Imagine if you were to put a Baroque-style soundtrack into a movie like The Lord of the Rings.


Okay:


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Okay:


Oh yeah, and also: 



.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Harold in Columbia said:


> Wrong _Lord of the Rings_ movie.


Right, it was Elizabeth Fraser, not Renee Fleming. I discovered the mistake and removed it, but obviously not before you had already clicked "Reply With Quote". Sorry 'bout that.

(And Barry Lyndon is just a tad different from The Lord of the Rings.







)


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

dsphipps100 said:


> Right, it was Elizabeth Fraser, not Renee Fleming. I discovered the mistake and removed it, but obviously not before you had already clicked "Reply With Quote". Sorry 'bout that.


Nothing to be sorry about. I've now removed that part from my post.



dsphipps100 said:


> (And Barry Lyndon is just a tad different from The Lord of the Rings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, yes. _Barry Lyndon_ is more serious. (Though maybe not more serious than Tolkien's books.)


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> Uh oh. Listening to just that bit of Hippolyte et Aricie isn't going to do much for your appreciation of Rameau, an innovative composer who _did_ shock audiences in his day.


That's the whole point I'm making - it was shocking then, but today, we have to be told "this is shocking" to even realize it.


Chronochromie said:


> And maybe you shouldn't look for the same things in pre-Romantic music that you look for in Romantic music, because you won't get them


I understand that, I do not expect Bach, Rameau, Vivaldi, et al to sound like Mahler or Wagner.


Chronochromie said:


> criticising Baroque composers for not being "emotional" in the way that Beethoven or Mahler are is a bit odd.


I'm not being critical of them at all. They were brilliant masters for their time, and they did things to revolutionize music and further develop our understanding and use of it that we are all today indebted to them for. That doesn't mean that I'm going to put them on my smartphone's "most played" list.


Chronochromie said:


> About conditioning: try any of what you said on people who have had minimal contact with Western culture. I don't think that's going to turn out the way you expect.


On the contrary, the tonal structure of western music is not based merely on cultural mores, but is built on the scientific structure of chordal harmony and overtone relationships. There's a physics-related reason why a dominant seventh chord sound like something that needs resolution, where the standard triad that comes afterward sounds like the appropriate resolution. It's not just cultural conditioning, there is also a great deal of acoustical physics behind the principals of western music.

That was actually one of the things that was so revolutionary about Baroque era music, was that Vivaldi, Bach, and others discovered it was possible to use major-vs-minor in their music to produce a far more powerful effect than the modal writing that had been around since medieval times, like "phrygian", or "mixolydian", and I forget what the other modes are, it's been too long since I had theory class in college...

Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that western music is so popular in East Asia, while pentatonic harmony, the basis for ancient "oriental" music, is not seen in the West as anything more than an occasional device to generate interest or variety? It's because Western music is based on scientific, acoustic principles of physics that go along with the laws of nature, and as such is universally recognizable and appreciable.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

dsphipps100 said:


> It's not just cultural conditioning, there is also a great deal of acoustical physics behind the principals of western music.


Yes.

But it's _*mostly*_ cultural conditioning.

Take your example of a dominant seventh chord. If it absolutely begs for resolution, such that it is natural to resolve it and unnatural not to, how do you explain the use of seventh chords of similar construction as a stable element in much jazz and popular music?


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

One of the primary bases for the origin of jazz was as a counter-reaction to the "rules" that had evolved in traditional harmony out of the laws of physics. One of the most fascinating aspect of jazz (and pop, which was/is partially an outgrowth of jazz) is that its progenitors were so effective in turning the rules on their head that the listener can be conditioned, given the right harmonic structure, to perceive the seventh chord as a point of rest.

I would also point to the last chord in the Menuet from Ravel's Le Tombeau de Couperin, which he concludes with a major 7th chord. This is definitely "against the rules", but because of the harmonic extensions that were an essential part of French Impressionistic music, the listener perceives it as a point of rest.

Nevertheless, both of these examples, jazz and Ravel, are something that require a conditioned response against the "rules" which are based on physics.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Both Ravel and the jazz musicians can also point to the overtone series for the basis of their harmonic choices, though. Both the major (pretty much in tune) and minor (a good bit further out of tune) sevenths are found directly in the overtone series, while the minor third is merely a relationship between overtones, at most (which has led to some odd justifications).


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

dsphipps100 said:


> That's the whole point I'm making - it was shocking then, but today, we have to be told "this is shocking" to even realize it.


Maybe to you, but after I had been listening to just Bach and Vivaldi, Rameau did make a great impression in me. It "shocked" me more than Beethoven and Mahler because I wasn't used to that kind of Baroque music, but of course what shocks or doesn't depends on the person. Saying that Rameau or whoever can't shock anymore is odd. Can Mahler shock nowadays or do you have to be told that he was shocking in his day? Obviously we'll never hear the music of Rameau, Beethoven or Mahler with the ears of the people at the premieres of their works. In fact, with our ears used to the standard use of pseudo-Romantic scores in film, Mahler other late Romantics can sound way more tame than they were.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Mahlerian said:


> Both Ravel and the jazz musicians can also point to the overtone series for the basis of their harmonic choices, though. Both the major (pretty much in tune) and minor (a good bit further out of tune) sevenths are found directly in the overtone series, while the minor third is merely a relationship between overtones, at most (which has led to some odd justifications).





Chronochromie said:


> Maybe to you, but after I had been listening to just Bach and Vivaldi, Rameau did make a great impression in me. It "shocked" me more than Beethoven and Mahler because I wasn't used to that kind of Baroque music, but of course what shocks or doesn't depends on the person. Saying that Rameau or whoever can't shock anymore is odd. Can Mahler shock nowadays or do you have to be told that he was shocking in his day? Obviously we'll never hear the music of Rameau, Beethoven or Mahler with the ears of the people at the premieres of their works. In fact, with our ears used to the standard use of pseudo-Romantic scores in film, Mahler other late Romantics can sound way more tame than they were.


I don't disagree with anything you guys are saying. I will happily agree that the people of that time found the things that Rameau and others were doing to be shocking. But I've allowed myself to be detoured, I fear.

The whole point I was making earlier is that, the reason for my preference for post-Beethoven music is because of the way(s) in which emotion is portrayed in one musical period vs. another. Does that make either one of them inferior or superior? Not in the slightest.

I simply prefer music that takes a (mostly) evocative approach to expression rather than music which takes a (mostly) representational approach. That's the bottom line as to what I've been speaking of. If somebody else prefers or is equally comfortable with music that takes a mostly representational approach, then I wish them nothing but enjoyment and pleasure as they listen to it.


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## Harold in Columbia (Jan 10, 2016)

Mahlerian said:


> Both Ravel and the jazz musicians can also point to the overtone series for the basis of their harmonic choices, though.


And let's be consistent here. If the overtone series really is God, then we should all be listening exclusively to either Gérard Grisey or later Terry Riley.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Harold in Columbia said:


> And let's be consistent here. If the overtone series really is God, then we should all be listening exclusively to either Gérard Grisey or later Terry Riley.


Yep! Let's not forget that the harmonic series gets pretty messy after no. 10


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

> ....and as the brass choir pounds out the "valhalla" leitmotif while the home of the gods collapses in flames and then the "transformation" leitmotif rises from the devastation to signal that the world is now free, nobody needs any formal training to have tears come to their eyes at that point.
> 
> Twilight.Ending.mp3


I agree with what you are saying about emotion and music - it works for me, though I recognise that the subjectivity of music means that many will disagree wholeheartedly. 
I wonder if this subject deserves a thread of it's own as it's gone way beyond looking for peaceful or non-imposing symphonies as requested by the OP.
BTW, what's the Wagner 'Gotterdammerung' recording in your snippet?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

dsphipps100 said:


> Right, it was Elizabeth Fraser, not Renee Fleming. I discovered the mistake and removed it, but obviously not before you had already clicked "Reply With Quote". Sorry 'bout that.
> 
> (And Barry Lyndon is just a tad different from The Lord of the Rings.
> 
> ...


More then a tad I would add :tiphat:


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

techniquest said:


> BTW, what's the Wagner 'Gotterdammerung' recording in your snippet?


Levine/Met of 1991.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

dsphipps100 said:


> I took your advice and put on the Scottish Chamber Orchestra recording on YouTube conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras. They certainly do an excellent job of playing it, and there is a great deal of dynamic contrast. I think the thing(s) that make the difference for me is that, after Beethoven, it was considered OK for the music to be "shocking" - at least on occasion. Before Beethoven, it comes across as if music was supposed to be either "delightful" or "religious/spiritual" sounding, both of which boil down to "correct" sounding.
> 
> Oh, I know, Haydn was creative at playing his little "shocking" games with his music, like the Farewell Symphony, or the "Surprise" Symphony (in which the "surprise" is, by today's standards, so mundane that program notes now have to commonly point out where it is so the modern listener knows to be (ahem) "surprised" when the moment arrives), but it's all in good fun, right?
> 
> ...


Mozart also had his moments - think about some of the minor key works.
I cant imagine people were not shocked when they heard the 1st mvt of the g minor piano quartet - or the 1st mvt of the d minor pc. Try gardiners rec of the d minor pc 1st mvt. period ins make a big difference to the impact.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

Nobody has anymore peaceful symphonies to recommend?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Schumann must be mentioned?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Klassic said:


> Nobody has anymore peaceful symphonies to recommend?


Yoshimatsu's 4th symphony. That symphony soundslike magical dreamland paradise, so I guess you could say it's pretty peaceful.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Has anybody mentioned Alan Hovhaness's Symphony # 2, "Mysterious Mountain"?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Carl Nielsen´s sixth symphony is peaceful.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

This is a damn good thread I don't think it should die in the wasteland of lost threads, not yet. Anyone else know anymore peaceful symphonies?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I can think of any number of "peaceful" symphonies. Without excitement, tension, conflict and verve, they are mostly quite boring.


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## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I can think of any number of "peaceful" symphonies. Without excitement, tension, conflict and verve, they are mostly quite boring.


Yes, there is that problem. However, I don't mind boredom as long as one has intense beauty!


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Klassic said:


> Nobody has anymore peaceful symphonies to recommend?


I can only agree with previous votes for RVW 5th (but not 3rd) and Sibelius 6th, especially the latter.


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## johankillen (Sep 20, 2015)

Beethoven 9 III movement


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Elliott Carter's very Copland-esq with a touch of Piston First Symphony.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

hpowders said:


> One of my favorite peaceful symphonies is the Third Symphony by Charles Ives.
> 
> A wonderful evocation of a bygone New England summer custom of country church services with communion followed by happy picnics-kids playing, adults socializing, ending with peaceful church bells ringing.









_ . _


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Avey said:


> View attachment 81946
> _ . _


Thanks! It's such a beautiful, serene, haunting effect. Everytime I hear it, I wish I was back in time, in that "scene".


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