# "Until the Light Takes Us" black metal documentary



## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

> _Until the Light Takes Us_ is a documentary of the early 1990s black metal scene in Norway. Featuring interviews with Varg Vikernes, Fenriz of Darkthrone and other foundational members of the early black metal community, it is a documentary meant to appreciate black metal the way it should always have been: as an artistic movement against the modern world, gravitating toward mythic imagination through intense music, murder and fire.
> 
> _Until the Light Takes Us_ homepage


I'm curious to see how this turns out. After all, black metal was just about the only actually indie or underground movement of the 1990s.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Not exactly the only underground movement of the '90s.. what about tube trains?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

..and moles for that matter..


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I'm curious to see how this turns out. After all, black metal was just about the only actually indie or underground movement of the 1990s.


Jeez, you don't give up do you. as for being an underground movement [so are earthquakes] what point are you making??


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Conservationist said:


> I'm curious to see how this turns out. After all, black metal was just about the only actually indie or underground movement of the 1990s.


Honestly, what does any of this have to do with classical music? The vast majority of folks in this forum couldn't care less about metal. To whom are these posts supposed to be of interest?


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2009)

Well at least it is the correct section [non classical] but I'm blowed if I can see the point


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I have nothing against Coservationist, he seems like a nice guy. But these metal discussions seem to keep popping up and the majority of us revolt against them. Maybe that says something?

At least when other "extra-classical" topics come up like jazz or Michael Jackson, they are of general interest to our regular members and there is some level of participation. But these metal threads (and the sub forum!) seem especially out of place here, and I really don't know how a thread about a documentary of Norwegian black metal music could possible be for the general consumption of a classical forum where, again, the majority of us have NO INTEREST in this type of music.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> But these metal discussions seem to keep popping up and the majority of us revolt against them.


I'd love to see the numbers.

There seemed to be interest, and it's definitely more interesting than the jazz poseurs...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Conservationist said:


> I'd love to see the numbers.
> 
> There seemed to be interest, and it's definitely more interesting than the jazz poseurs...


Where's the interest? No one in this thread so far has expressed any interest in this.

Do you really need to see numbers to know the majority of us hear don't give a hoot about metal music???


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Where's the interest? No one in this thread so far has expressed any interest in this.
> 
> Do you really need to see numbers to know the majority of us hear don't give a hoot about metal music???


I want some backing to your assertion.

I see a lot of people replying.

Now, I know there's a lot of nasty behavior around here -- but if people really didn't care, no replies.

Further, there's a lot of people reading the forum beyond the regular participants. So even if the same four people freak out each time, that doesn't at all mean a majority disagree.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Conservationist said:


> I want some backing to your assertion.
> 
> I see a lot of people replying.
> 
> ...


No one who has replied as done so to say that the documentary on Norwegian black metal is interesting. People have made comments about moles and earthquakes as they are "underground movements," but that's about it. Do you see these as legitimate replies?

I do not have concrete numbers to back my claim that the majority of us hear care nothing about metal music. Hasn't the subject been greeted with more disdain than enthusiasm across the board? I think it's rather obvious without an exact tally of who's not into metal.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> I want some backing to your assertion.
> 
> I see a lot of people replying.
> 
> Now, I know there's a lot of nasty behavior around here


You want Tap to back up his assertions yet you will not do the same when asked, the only people I see replying are not followers, so where are the followers?
Nasty behavior? really  I do not see any.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> I do not have concrete numbers to back my claim that the majority of us hear care nothing about metal music.


Bing! Ignore it if you hate it.


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## Dedrater (Mar 2, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> No one who has replied as done so to say that the documentary on Norwegian black metal is interesting. People have made comments about moles and earthquakes as they are "underground movements," but that's about it. Do you see these as legitimate replies?


I, for one, don't, which is why I also think they should be deleted from the thread.



> I do not have concrete numbers to back my claim that the majority of us hear care nothing about metal music. Hasn't the subject been greeted with more disdain than enthusiasm across the board? I think it's rather obvious without an exact tally of who's not into metal.


Vocal minorities are common on the Internet. Aside from yourself, the only two people who've voiced disapproval in this thread are Bach and Andante, neither of whom have listened to metal before. Do garbage spam posts made by two whole people with no motive other than to berate a genre of music they've only read about hold merit in this environment?

The poster's original post implores its audience -- those who've professed an interest in this music elsewhere on the forums -- to consider what this film is going to be like, and what effects it will have on the community it addresses. The ensuing replies were either absolute garbage, incendiary remarks along the lines of, "Give up; we've beaten you in the game!" or a combination of these.

I get that some within the general community here are not going to understand concepts like: the possibility of false perceptions; emotive and communicative content over musical aesthetics; the idea that genes shape the degree to which we respond to intense organized sound; driving away the weak through both imagery and the adoption of tribal, war-like, ritualistic sounds; and the possibility that most people, in using music as both a social and an egoic predicate, pretend to like it based on its length, lack of repetition, alleged development, instrumental arrangement, etc. rather than because its logic and force send chills down their spine while affirming the persistence of their human spirit.

I get that. It's fine with me that the rationality-scope of individuals varies in breadth from one to the next. What I don't like is when these shortcomings induce frustration, because it leads to train wrecks (of the above-ground variety) like this thread, which inhibit communication.

If you don't understand something, don't act afraid of it; figure it out by actually taking the time to expose yourself to it, or leave it be. There is an interest in this kind of topic here, and your allegation that replies are a form of requisite proof that interest has germinated is a product of modern, correlation-based logic, which is dangerous anywhere in life.

Move on already.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

From the website:

"In 1991, Norwegian churches started to burn, just after an underground circle of metal musicians had formed. While reporters and police scrambled for answers, more and more churches went up in flames. They had no leads until Varg Vikernes, one of the architects of an underground music-art-political scene known as BLACK MEAL took credit and was quickly arrested. While he was in police custody, the media ran a largely fabricated story of satanic rituals, abductions and sacrifices. This film reveals the true story behind the music, murders and church burnings, and shows what happened when these young men, who tried to change the world using music, art and violence, found that they could not control what they had created."

Also worth seeing:

_Until the Light Takes Us_ trailer (1:33)


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> Nasty behavior? really  I do not see any.


Maybe you are not the most accurate gauge. That you don't see it, then, does not mean it does not exist. We should probably find a better gauge than a single individual, since unless you're God, whether you see something or not doesn't make it true.

I question the intelligence and honesty of anyone who would come into a thread in a forum marked "non-classical music" that lists metal in its header, and post nasty things into a metal topic, instead of simply passing it by.

That person would have a chip on their shoulder, maybe because they feel they are where they are in life because of political reasons, or perhaps cognitive dissonance, because they feel bad about where they are in life and so want to be nasty to other people to feel better about themselves.

I mean, a psychologically healthy and honest person would just ignore the topics, and not pathologically be forced to reply like a marionette each time the topic came up, don't you think? Instead, there's this pathological nastiness, like people bitter at life looking for someone to beat up on.

Internet bullies, in other words. And how they squeal and complain when someone fights back, as if the bullies are the wounded party! "Oh noes, the person I was trying to make suffer for me, he has teeth..."


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Dedrater said:


> I, for one, don't, which is why I also think they should be deleted from the thread.
> 
> Vocal minorities are common on the Internet. Aside from yourself, the only two people who've voiced disapproval in this thread are Bach and Andante, neither of whom have listened to metal before. Do garbage spam posts made by two whole people with no motive other than to berate a genre of music they've only read about hold merit in this environment?
> 
> ...


Just ignore my posts on this topic, Dedrater. Just ignore them.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Just ignore my posts on this topic, Dedrater. Just ignore them.


I'm sure that will happen when you start confining your bitterness about metal to other threads.

Some people here are interested in crossover between the communities.

Then there are some immature (and quite frankly, stupid) people who want to be pompous and look down at metal so that they can feel more intelligent or cultured.

So someone called you on that and you had a panic attack. Get over it. Ignore the metal threads and move on.

You can always start lots of threads about how jazz is just like classical, with a tinge of lack of organization, of course.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Conservationist said:


> I'm sure that will happen when you start confining your bitterness about metal to other threads.
> 
> Some people here are interested in crossover between the communities.
> 
> ...


Panic attack?


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Panic attack?


I think you had one, and now you're upset and calling any longer reply a panic attack?

Children, children, sit down!


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Conservationist said:


> I think you had one, and now you're upset and calling any longer reply a panic attack?
> 
> Children, children, sit down!


I really don't recall having a panic attack. But then again, maybe I'm so hysterical right now it's affecting my ability to remember.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> I really don't recall having a panic attack. But then again, maybe I'm so hysterical right now it's affecting my ability to remember.


That's why you can't stop replying with jibes?

Uh huh. Yeah, I'm really convinced.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Conservationist said:


> That's why you can't stop replying with jibes?
> 
> Uh huh. Yeah, I'm really convinced.


Speaking of Norway, my maternal great grandmother was from Norway. Maiden name was Hammar.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Tapkaara said:


> Speaking of Norway, my maternal great grandmother was from Norway. Maiden name was Hammar.


Interesting. Seems like a nice place, Norway. I'm rather fond of Scandinavia and central Europe.


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## PartisanRanger (Oct 19, 2008)

Man, what a bunch of tools. A guy can't start a thread about metal in a _non-classical music section_ without getting harassed. It's probably best to stay out of the sub-forum if such things are offensive to your sensibilities.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Conservationist said:


> Then there are some immature (and quite frankly, stupid) people who want to be pompous and look down at metal so that they can feel more intelligent or cultured.


That's not the reason. It's because it's bad music. How hard is that to understand? It's musically bad. Unsubtle electronic row - capisce?


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> That's not the reason. It's because it's bad music. How hard is that to understand? It's musically bad. Unsubtle electronic row - capisce?


We don't agree here. For example, I think jazz is bad music -- by design. You think metal is bad music, even though refused to consider listening to the examples I gave you, for what I think are spiritual reasons. Where does one go from there?

Metal is many things. Any idiot can claim to make it. A few do it well: you know, your Burzums, Demilichs, Atheists, Morbid Angels, Deicide (you need to hear "Legion") and so on.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I've listened to several of your examples! (And yes, I am spiritually averse to reveling in the macabre)


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I can understand you thinking Jazz is disorganized (not that metal is particularly organized either) but you must also understand that Jazz uses real acoustic instruments capable of a huge range of colouration. Piano, trumpet, saxophone, double bass etc. Distorted electric guitars are ugly - they are not capable of organic sounds or dynamic colouration.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> I can understand you thinking Jazz is disorganized (not that metal is particularly organized either) but you must also understand that Jazz uses real acoustic instruments capable of a huge range of colouration. Piano, trumpet, saxophone, double bass etc. Distorted electric guitars are ugly - they are not capable of organic sounds or dynamic colouration.


Which examples did you listen to?

I think distorted electric guitars can be ugly, unless you produce them correctly, at which point you get quite an organic sound.

The kind of synth distortion people use on mainstream albums is one-dimensional however.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

And an interview:



> *"Until the Light Takes Us," a black metal documentary*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Conservationist said:


> Which examples did you listen to?
> 
> I think distorted electric guitars can be ugly, unless you produce them correctly, at which point you get quite an organic sound.
> 
> The kind of synth distortion people use on mainstream albums is one-dimensional however.


All distortion is electric and therefore inherently inorganic. If it's not natural it's false and illusory.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Internet bullies, in other words. And how they squeal and complain when someone fights back, as if the bullies are the wounded party! "Oh noes, the person I was trying to make suffer for me, he has teeth..."


Have you been at the Whisky again 
*Conservationist*, You blabber on and on about honesty, intelligence, people posting nasty things in a Metal Topic, You have not once addressed any of the claims that I have raised instead you resort to name calling_* [I use that term because you may understand it more easily than ad hom]*_ on top of this you send me a PM that is, quite frankly, Childish. I will ignore it this time as I may say something that is really close to home.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andante said:


> Have you been at the Whisky again
> *Conservationist*, You blabber on and on about honesty, intelligence, people posting nasty things in a Metal Topic, You have not once addressed any of the claims that I have raised instead you resort to name calling_* [I use that term because you may understand it more easily than ad hom]*_ on top of this you send me a PM that is, quite frankly, Childish. I will ignore it this time as I may say something that is really close to home.


I, too, got a PM from Conservationist. Two of them, actually.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I, too, got a PM from Conservationist. Two of them, actually.


Well I hope they were more coherent than the one I received.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andante said:


> Well I hope they were more coherent than the one I received.


It was coherent enough. Unexpected more than anything.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> All distortion is electric and therefore inherently inorganic. If it's not natural it's false and illusory.


It depends on how one defines organic. Certainly most digital distortion sucks. Or are you referring to what Fripp called the schizophrenia of amplification?

To my mind, it can make the guitar into a new instrument. High sustain, more like a keyboard. Tangerine Dream also played with this, although not so much with guitar.


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## slayericed (Jul 18, 2009)

Bach said:


> I can understand you thinking Jazz is disorganized (not that metal is particularly organized either) but you must also understand that Jazz uses real acoustic instruments capable of a huge range of colouration. Piano, trumpet, saxophone, double bass etc. Distorted electric guitars are ugly - they are not capable of organic sounds or dynamic colouration.


couldnt help but jump into this thread. interesting....

being a fan of many genres including jazz, classical, prog rock and metal I find the underlying musical idea to be more important than the texture itself.

hence any musical idea as long it is interesting and creative, i acknowledge. regardless of the way it is produced.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

slayericed said:


> couldnt help but jump into this thread. interesting....
> 
> being a fan of many genres including jazz, classical, prog rock and metal I find the underlying musical idea to be more important than the texture itself.
> 
> hence any musical idea as long it is interesting and creative, i acknowledge. regardless of the way it is produced.


Who are your favorite composers, Slayericed?


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## slayericed (Jul 18, 2009)

nice attempt there to undermine the messenger by casting doubt on the credentials 

my listening would not be as deep and broad as yours since classical is not my primary area of expertise but i enjoy the likes of vivaldi, chopin prokofiev beethoven and mozart

now can we get back to the point please?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

slayericed said:


> nice attempt there to undermine the messenger by casting doubt on the credentials
> 
> my listening would not be as deep and broad as yours since classical is not my primary area of expertise but i enjoy the likes of vivaldi, chopin prokofiev beethoven and mozart
> 
> now can we get back to the point please?


I didn't mean to offend you in any way, but I was just asking you who your favorite composers are...!


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## slayericed (Jul 18, 2009)

Hey no hard feelings mate!  

my apologies if you felt bad. dont take my comments harshly


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

slayericed said:


> Hey no hard feelings mate!
> 
> my apologies if you felt bad. dont take my comments harshly


No problem. Welcome aboard, and I'm sure we'll all look forward to your contributions in the forum on the composers you mentioned and on composers you have yet to discover!


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## slayericed (Jul 18, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> No problem. Welcome aboard, and I'm sure we'll all look forward to your contributions in the forum on the composers you mentioned and on composers you have yet to discover!


thanks! as said earlier I am more of a beginner at classical and I would really like to expand my musical horizons


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

slayericed said:


> thanks! as said earlier I am more of a beginner at classical and I would really like to expand my musical horizons


Well, hopefully we'll see you around in the other threads. You'll see there are many to choose from, but you'll get the hang of it quickly.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

slayericed said:


> nice attempt there to undermine the messenger by casting doubt on the credentials


No matter how much he backpedals, you called the agenda correctly.

My advice: get rid of the jazz. It's impossible to appreciate the art behind structured music while listening to that pre-civilized noise.


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

> My advice: get rid of the jazz. It's impossible to appreciate the art behind structured music while listening to that pre-civilized noise.


I respect jazz for a number of reasons but I find much of it absolutely odious. The only stuff I can stand to listen to (mind you, not my preference at all) is "Smooth Jazz," which, of course, isn't jazz at all.

Oh, and Akercocke. Akercocke play jazz.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Bach said:


> All distortion is electric and therefore inherently inorganic. If it's not natural it's false and illusory.


Judging from this comment, would it be fair to say that you disapprove of every genre or style that makes use of electric distortion?


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

> If it's not natural it's false and illusory.


Believe me, you DON'T want to get us on the subject of Trueness.

And don't ask why. Just don't even go there.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Atelier said:


> Believe me, you DON'T want to get us on the subject of Trueness.
> 
> And don't ask why. Just don't even go there.


*Why.* _ (The message you entered is too short please lengthen it to 10 characters)_ 
OK why wh


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Andante said:


> *Why.*


Because he can write something so stupid that you will get heart attack after reading it.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Now you have my full attention I am all agog


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Honestly guys... 4 threads on metal at the same time? Seriously? I'm getting a headache reading all this. Yeah I know, I know: "if you don't like what's being said, don't read". I can't follow me own advice. Today I'm totally hooked...


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

> Because he can write something so stupid that you will get heart attack after reading it.


Very interesting that you're calling someone else stupid when the subject just went completely over your head. Also, some great grammar there.

Once again, ad hominems. I'm enjoying the double standard.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Atelier said:


> Very interesting that you're calling someone else stupid when the subject just went completely over your head. Also, some great grammar there.
> 
> Once again, ad hominems. I'm enjoying the double standard.


You are not showing who you are quoting


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

Read the thread and see if you can piece it together.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Atelier said:


> Read the thread and see if you can piece it together.


What I am getting at is: if you hit the quote button it will show who you are quoting and the reader by clicking onto the mark > will be taken to that particular post, just trying to make it a bit easier for all.


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm very familiar with vbulletin. 

I'm also rather at a loss as to how much helping along you gentlemen seem to need. Seriously-- for guys who seem to waste no opportunity to talk up your intellectual and cultural superiority, why are we forever having to explain things like quotes, irony, grammar, definitions, metaphors...?

I assume that you have some high degree of education in music-- perhaps you could stand to spend some time outside of the conservatory? You know, reading books without the little dots on the funny lines?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Jeez, you cant resist it can you, even when a friendly post is made you just have to bite.


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## Atelier (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't even mean it so much as a bite. Understand, I'm not calling you stupid. 

I have a great deal of experience with the self defense and martial arts community. Many of those people are very, very good at what they do. But I got extremely frustrated with them over time.

I realized that I was expecting intellectual capacity from them that was simply not on the menu. Why? I think that stuff attracts guys who are not necessarily all that bright. Because it's a physical pursuit, they are even able to reach very high levels of skill, depending on the art because some take more brainpower than others.

And not only that, but the numerous hours a day over many many years that it took to gain competency at martial arts carried with it an unseen opportunity cost.

In reading these forums I'm seeing some similar but at the same time fundamentally different patterns of misunderstanding. The misunderstandings are different in texture. In this case, it's obviously not a matter of any sort of brainpower deficiency, not if you're educated to any degree in music. And most people here are obviously very bright. So, what?

If you think people who share intense interests in certain esoteric subjects don't have many, many other things in common, I'd have to beg to differ...

What's the opportunity cost of 12 hour per day practice sessions?

In my case, it was tendonitis, so I should probably stop typing to people who apparently look down their sophisticated noses in our general direction. Or maybe it's just that we smell. Very likely we do.


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## Gangsta Tweety Bird (Jan 25, 2009)

yo atelier i know your a metal head and all but i think you just gotta chillax bro maybe listen to some classic fm or one of those awful casio keyboard albums by burzum if your into that!


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

Atelier said:


> I don't even mean it so much as a bite. Understand, I'm not calling you stupid.
> 
> I have a great deal of experience with the self defense and martial arts community. Many of those people are very, very good at what they do. But I got extremely frustrated with them over time.
> 
> ...


*Hells Bells Man, What are you on??*


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## Dedrater (Mar 2, 2009)

danae said:


> Honestly guys... 4 threads on metal at the same time? Seriously? I'm getting a headache reading all this. Yeah I know, I know: "if you don't like what's being said, don't read". I can't follow me own advice. Today I'm totally hooked...


Logical sequence of premises and conclusion:

1. I don't like metal.

2. Posting about why I don't like metal will provide insight into why metal is inherently inferior to traditional music. This is productive.

3. Posting about why I don't like metal will cause the metal topics to stay at the top of the forum.

4. One metal topic at a time is fine, but four? That's ridiculous.

5. I should publicly state 4. That will help 2. out quite a bit, I think. Wait, but then I'd be promoting 3.

6. But I don't like metal!

7. Therefore, I will post in topics about metal.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Dedrater said:


> Logical sequence of premises and conclusion:
> 
> 1. I don't like metal.
> 
> ...


Damn! You really need to feel intellectually superior... And I thought _I_ had an inferiority complex!


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## Dedrater (Mar 2, 2009)

danae said:


> Damn! You really need to feel intellectually superior... And I thought _I_ had an inferiority complex!


Logical sequence of premises and conclusion:

1. The preceding breakdown of my reasons for posting in these topics was more than several words long.

2. When someone uses more than a handful of words to make a point, that means they're passionate about their point.

3. Passion is congruent with desperation and weakness. When someone cares about something, that means there's a void in their life that needs to be filled, and if it isn't getting filled, they'll blindly take out their frustration on others.

4. 3. applies to everyone except me. Wait, better make this point discreetly. Self-deprecation and sarcasm to the rescue.

5. I was justified in posting. Nope, no cognitive dissonance here.

6. Therefore, the poster's only possible motive is self-gratification.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

*What on earth are you talking about?* And with that I gotta go. Goodmorning, one and all.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

danae said:


> Damn! You really need to feel intellectually superior... And I thought _I_ had an inferiority complex!


Stop behaving like a loser.

He was pointing out the truth... which is that the people attacking metal in this thread are the ones needing to feel intellectually superior.

You seem to think we're stupid (or you're stupid) because you just turned the accusation around and hoped we wouldn't notice.

What kind of people do you hang out with who are impressed by this? Idiots?


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Stop behaving like a loser.
> 
> He was pointing out the truth... which is that the people attacking metal in this thread are the ones needing to feel intellectually superior.
> 
> ...


I'm confused. Did you read ANY of my posts in which I "attacked" metal? I was just wondering what's the point of having 4 different threads concerning the same subject.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

danae said:


> I'm confused. Did you read ANY of my posts in which I "attacked" metal? I was just wondering what's the point of having 4 different threads concerning the same subject.


Why don't you ask the idiots who have to come into every metal thread and post their nasty ranting? They're the ones causing that problem.

The fact is most people on the internet suck. They're losers in real life, and they're angry, and they want to put someone else down to make themselves feel better.

That's what we're seeing here. If you don't like metal, ignore it! But don't whine and say nasty things and then complain to the admins when someone points out that such behavior is moronic.


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Why don't you ask the idiots who have to come into every metal thread and post their nasty ranting? They're the ones causing that problem.
> 
> The fact is most people on the internet suck. They're losers in real life, and they're angry, and they want to put someone else down to make themselves feel better.
> 
> That's what we're seeing here. If you don't like metal, ignore it! But don't whine and say nasty things and then complain to the admins when someone points out that such behavior is moronic.


I'm not asking them (the "idiots"), I'm asking you specifically, since I am, after all, respsonding to _your_ personal remark, and since it was _you_ who advised me to "stop behaving like a loser".


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Why don't you ask the idiots who have to come into every metal thread and post their nasty ranting? They're the ones causing that problem.
> 
> The fact is most people on the internet suck. They're losers in real life, and they're angry, and they want to put someone else down to make themselves feel better.
> 
> That's what we're seeing here. If you don't like metal, ignore it! But don't whine and say nasty things and then complain to the admins when someone points out that such behavior is moronic.


So far you have been polite even when others did not - now you sound like desperated crying guy losing his patience. I wonder why you're still here. There are much more forums, without nasty losers which, as you see, are the majority here.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

danae said:


> I'm not asking them (the "idiots"), I'm asking you specifically, since I am, after all, respsonding to _your_ personal remark, and since it was _you_ who advised me to "stop behaving like a loser".


Come on, that's not an intelligent response.

I described the situation. You now see why it is how it is. This isn't rocket science.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Aramis said:


> So far you have been polite even when others did not - now you sound like desperated crying guy losing his patience. I wonder why you're still here. There are much more forums, without nasty losers which, as you see, are the majority here.


What a passive aggressive response! You indirectly call me a ******* and someone who can't control himself, and then try to hint I should leave. Where did you learn to think? Are you homeless?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

What's wrong about my suggestion? You seem do dislike the most people that you talk with and vice versa. Leaving the forum or leaving the metal discussions - one of roads those you must choose, padawan...



> Where did you learn to think?


Does it matter where? I never attempted to thinking lessons at thinking schools, so place doesn't matter - I've learned to think inside of my mind. Perhaps you're asking about place in my mind that I've used in learning to think?


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## Dedrater (Mar 2, 2009)

Aramis said:


> What's wrong about my suggestion? You seem do dislike the most people that you talk with and vice versa. Leaving the forum or leaving the metal discussions - one of roads those you must choose, padawan...


Only two options? Democrat and Republican, huh? Sucks.

No wonder everyone in society is a cry baby -- they can't even comprehend the idea that opposition can be fun to confront with confidence and logic. "Wah, I paid good money to come to this school. As a consumer, I bought my degree, so gimme." There are no men left in our world.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Aramis said:


> Leaving the forum or leaving the metal discussions - one of roads those you must choose, padawan...


No, that's how YOU characterize it, and there's no guarantee you're correct. In fact, it looks to me like the whole thing came about because incontinent/incoherent people like yourself couldn't control themselves enough to stop replying to a topic with insults against a whole genre of music.

If I have to make it clearer, I don't respect your logical skills and so reject your statements out of hand. Did you think I'd be that easy to manipulate? You must truly live surrounded by idiots.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Dedrater said:


> Only two options? Democrat and Republican, huh? Sucks.
> 
> No wonder everyone in society is a cry baby -- they can't even comprehend the idea that opposition can be fun to confront with confidence and logic. "Wah, I paid good money to come to this school. As a consumer, I bought my degree, so gimme." There are no men left in our world.


You seem to understand today's society very well! You have my respect and admiration - I hope someday you will became leader of the free world and make it much better! No doubt that you can!

Regards,
unable to understand you, 
but always loyal. 
Great Unwashed.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Did you think I'd be that easy to manipulate?


Not really - I was curious about your motivation to stay here if, as you say, people here are so terrible.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Aramis said:


> Not really - I was curious about your motivation to stay here if, as you say, people here are so terrible.


As I've said before, people on the internet in general are angry.

Not all.

So if you like a place, beat back the idiots and support the good people.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> So if you like a place, beat back the idiots and support the good people.


Good luck in beating back the idiots. I'm sure they will stop ruining you metal threads and embrace you as the winner very soon.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Aramis said:


> Good luck in beating back the idiots.


Thanks! I sense they're receding.

You could have spent all this time listening to metal from Poland or even epic keyboard music from Poland.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> You could have spent all this time listening to metal from Poland.


I don't have to read these articles, Vader was the first metal band I've discovered. Althought I never really respected Behemoth.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Aramis said:


> I don't have to read these articles, Vader was the first metal band I've discovered. Althought I never really respected Behemoth.


I like the demos from Vader and the first album; from Behemoth, only "The Pagan Vastlands" is good but the rest is still musical which is more than I can say from other metalcore.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Interesting review:



> Something draws all of us to metal, and no one has asked yet what it is -- until now. Two brave indie filmmakers set out to learn about the phenomenon of Norwegian black metal from the early 1990s, and explain to us why it happened. In doing so, they hope to show us our world in a new light: how modernity has made culture, history and even truth dubious and lost in a flow in chaotic information.
> 
> "Until the Light Takes Us" review


About time someone put metal on the big screen and tried to explain it.


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## Patchman (Aug 15, 2009)

> I like the demos from Vader and the first album; from Behemoth, only "The Pagan Vastlands" is good but the rest is still musical which is more than I can say from other metalcore.


I like all of Behemoth's discography, but I have to agree there's something about "From the pagan vastlands" that makes it the best for me.

And apparently, Vader now have Vogg from decapitated with them, so the new album should be great.

And i don't know what's so wrong about posting about metal here, it's the non-classical section, jazz is being discussed here too, nobody has a problem, maybe just one metal topic where you update often, it does seem annoying with all these topics scattered around. Anyway, I'll watch that documentary, I have watched a ton of black metal documentaries, always great to see those guys, but I do find it hard not to laugh at some of them, for example Gaahl when he waits a long time to cite Satan as an influence, that's not to say I don't understand what they are trying to do, or that I can't take it seriously, it's just timing, but anyway...yeah.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Patchman said:


> And i don't know what's so wrong about posting about metal here, it's the non-classical section, jazz is being discussed here too, nobody has a problem, maybe just one metal topic where you update often, it does seem annoying with all these topics scattered around.


From metal scholar Keith Kahn-Harris:

Middle classes avoid "blue collar" heavy metal

It's a social status-seeking response to claim all metal is stupid and unibrow, tire-changing, mullet-ridden lower-status pseudo-art.

Jazz is accepted for political reasons, mostly, but also because musicians in the middle like it.

Classical is seen as elitist by the left, but they still tolerate it, which makes it OK in social circles.

Rock is The People's Music.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2009)

Conservationist said:


> Thanks! I sense they're receding.


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## Conservationist (Apr 5, 2007)

Patchman said:


> I have to agree there's something about "From the pagan vastlands" that makes it the best for me.


Their other stuff is directionless; "From the pagan vastlands" is like a sculpture in cold white, a complete vision...


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm looking forward to seeing this documentary. Has anyone here seen it? 

I only joined this forum today. I listen to quite a bit of Metal, but have always liked Classical. Liszt, Chopin and Bach being the ones I had most material by. I'm hoping to delve deeper into the genre. 

I've only scanned a few threads, but the hostile reaction to Metal even being mentioned seems bizarre.


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## David58117 (Nov 5, 2009)

I was really into black metal when I was younger, even drumming in a few local bands (although I refused to wear "corpse paint" and dress like an idiot). I really haven't listened to black metal in the last...6/7 years or so, but I wouldn't mind tossing on Nargaroth's "herbstleyd" or Gravelands "Thousand Swords"/ "Following the Voice of Blood" CD's again. 

As I remember right, those disks excelled in atmosphere. 

Ha, I use to love Horna, Satanic Warmaster, Beherit, Master's Hammer, Old Mans Child, etc...I'm kinda curious what I've missed over the years!


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

You hear the new Burzum?


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## David58117 (Nov 5, 2009)

New Burzum? No, I'll have to check it out. If it's anything like his prison stuff though, I'm definitely not interested. 

..is Varg still in prison?


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

He was released last year.

New album, "Belus", is released officially tomorrow. It's "Metal", but I don't think it's as good as his earlier stuff. Have a listen on youtube or something. (Is this one of those forums where you're not supposed to mention such things?)


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## Johnny (Mar 7, 2010)

Did you get a chance to hear it?


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## David58117 (Nov 5, 2009)

I listened to a few tracks...nothing special.


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## Mordacis (Mar 26, 2010)

Bach said:


> Not exactly the only underground movement of the '90s.. what about tube trains?


Bach is one of my heroes, and alot of metal bands owe him.
I like geniuses, and elitistic taste (don't know if i'd say you display it, but your posts incline that), and to many people's surprise, it is possible to combine it. Then, if you simply don't like the sound of Metal music, that's totally ok. Especially when it comes to the vocals.
But there IS a big difference in let's say Motörhead and Deathspell Omega.
Alot of "serious" Black Metal bands incorporate, interprete or just sample great classical music, like Schnittke, Musorgskij, Pärt and Wagner.
To say otherwise, just to mock the genre, is a sign of feeblemindedness.

I love most black metal, and have love for norwegian classic stuff, but in terms of actually good music, i'd say Emperor, Satyricon and Burzum as well as some Darkthrone, represented it. The scene is still more known for the non-musical happenings.


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## Mordacis (Mar 26, 2010)

Johnny said:


> He was released last year.
> 
> New album, "Belus", is released officially tomorrow. It's "Metal", but I don't think it's as good as his earlier stuff. Have a listen on youtube or something. (Is this one of those forums where you're not supposed to mention such things?)


didn't even know it was out. i'll buy it tommorrow, aswell as the new ondskapt album, and i need Wagner's Götterdämmerung aswell.


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