# Are Any Composers Heroes In Your Life?



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Let's take Beethoven for example, he struggled with physical deafness and yet he wrote some of the greatness musical compositions composed by the human race. He is a great person, and a role model in this respect to persist with life's challenges. He might be a role model or a hero of some type to many people.

Do you identify any dead composers (or maybe even some of the living ones today) as heroes in your life in some way or another?


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Mahler and Shostakovich. I think those are my hero-composers that spring to mind. There are certainly others.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I voted yes. I consider Beethoven a hero in this respect because he managed to struggle with his deafness without letting it overcome his art. It teaches me to be manage stress in life in a similar way. Other composers include the great Mozart, who had to overcome all types of obstacles to get his music performed and appreciated. Bach was another too. He raised a larger family of children (half died at infancy), and also had to struggle with is employers in Leipzig to get what he wanted for his music. Life wasn't always easy for any of these truly great composers but they managed very well.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Littlephrase said:


> Mahler and Shostakovich. I think those are my hero-composers that spring to mind. There are certainly others.


Can you explain why Mahler and Shostakovich?

Shostakovich was an interesting one. He was under duress from the government and the Second World War, yet he wrote fine music.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm inspired by what many composers have done in their music, calling them 'heroes' goes a bit too far for me. I see them as humans, very gifted in ways but still flawed like the rest of us.

A while ago I came across this saying that I agree with, "If you put someone on a pedestal, expect to get a kick in the face."


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

tdc said:


> I'm inspired by what many composers have done in their music, calling them 'heroes' goes a bit too far for me. I see them as humans, very gifted in ways but still flawed like the rest of us.
> 
> A while ago I came across this saying that I agree with, "If you put someone on a pedestal, expect to get a kick in the face."


Which composers might inspire you?


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Yes. Beethoven. I consider him a great person, a humanist dreamer, and he is my idol and my ideal of what a composer can accomplish. He had many struggles in his life - not only with deafness - but I think that he "took destiny by the throat" and won in the end, becoming one of the immortals of humanity. Ludwig van Beethoven and his music greatly inspire me.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

"Every discussion leads to Beethoven in the end" - _Axter, 27 th Feb 2021_.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Liszt, Chopin, Franck, Tschaikowsky, Bruckner, W. Wallace, all for different reasons. (and Beethoven, of course) *Music is made for heroes. *


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Not even close. The whole concept of seeing composers as heroes is completely alien to me.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Maybe Harry Partch. But an inspiration, not a "hero".


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I wouldn't use the term "hero," but I have a lot of respect for John Cage. He remained joyful, almost always smiling, and rarely lost his temper despite being pummeled with ridicule for most of his career, usually responding with humor. He was also very generous and encouraging to younger composers.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

I'm not sure I would use the word hero either, although I greatly admire many.


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## Andante Largo (Apr 23, 2020)

*Ignacy Jan Paderewski *(1860 - 1941) - Polish pianist, composer, independence activist, statesman and politician. As a respected musician who gives concerts all over the world, during the World War I, he began to speak at the salons he visited about independent Poland. Under his direct influence, President Woodrow Wilson included in his ultimatum conditional on the signing of the Treaty of Versailles by the United States, the 13th point demanding the consent of the parties to the treaty to the sovereignty of Poland - thanks to which the treaty included the creation of an independent Polish state. Later, in 1919 Paderewski was the Prime Minister and foreign minister of the newly formed state, during which he signed the Treaty of Versailles, which ended World War I.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I have always felt great respect for Bela Bartok. He was an unwavering foe of dictators and bullies, and managed to compose stunning music right up to his death from leukemia.

Similar respect for Rachmaninoff, who turned to becoming a piano virtuoso in order to make a living in the West at an age when some _Wunderkind_ virtuosos have peaked and gone home.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> Not even close. The whole concept of seeing composers as heroes is completely alien to me.


Same here. If any composers deserve the title of "hero", it would have to be for the non-musical part of their lives.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I know some people think some composers are "villains", not only in their own lives, but for all mankind.

"Without Wagner's own input the Nazis would have had nothing to play with." -DavidA
"The Wagner-Taliban and in fact everybody, interested in the raise of the egomania of the 19th century, wish to see Hitler as an isolated monster, who was not influenced by anyone in particular, but single handed came up and executed the Endlosung." -NLAdriaan


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Your poll made me consider: Who _are_ my heroes? So far, I can only think of three:

Beethoven, because he never stopped exploring worlds music had never thought about before.

Bill Russell, because in all respects he was never other than an admirable human being.

Edward de Vere, because if he _was_ the author of the works attributed Shakespeare (and this isn't the forum to discuss that possibility), he did it in the full knowledge that he would _never_ receive the credit.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

No, I don't do heroes because people are complex and imperfect.
That said, I have huge respect for Alexander Borodin. Born illegitimate, worked his way up to a well-respected Chemistry prof, argued successfully for medical training for women, reliable friend to those in need. Oh, and he wrote some lovely music in his spare time. Good bloke.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Pat Fairlea said:


> No, I don't do heroes because people are complex and imperfect.
> That said, I have huge respect for Alexander Borodin. Born illegitimate, worked his way up to a well-respected Chemistry prof, argued successfully for medical training for women, reliable friend to those in need. Oh, and he wrote some lovely music in his spare time. Good bloke.


Borodin must have been a good bloke indeed to write beautiful music like this:


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

No heroes because of their music. If a composer was a hero for me, it would be because of biographical matters. However, I do not seek out those biographical details, as I want to listen to the music in an abstract way, and find "composer back story" aspects distracting.

However, there is also the flip side of this: if a composer is a bit of a monster in their personal life, I don't want to know about that either, and would still listen to their music.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

On Wikipedia the other day, I read about how Furtwangler* opposed the N*zis. Clearly he was a hero-- I couldn't dream of being so defiant to the Third R*ich. Furtwangler gave his wages to his Jewish friends. He refused to give the N*zi salute to H*tler himself. He had ties to the Resistance. 

The conductor was only spared because the regime recognized his greatness. Even then, he had to flee Germany in 1945 when the N*zis finally decided to arrest him.

Furtwangler was a hero.

*Furtwangler was a composer, albeit an unsuccessful one. His best known work, his Symphony no. 2, is a rather feeble imitation of Bruckner's style.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

ORigel said:


> On Wikipedia the other day, I read about how Furtwangler* opposed the N*zis. Clearly he was a hero-- I couldn't dream of being so defiant to the Third R*ich. Furtwangler gave his wages to his Jewish friends. He refused to give the N*zi salute to H*tler himself. He had ties to the Resistance.
> 
> The conductor was only spared because the regime recognized his greatness. Even then, he had to flee Germany in 1945 when the N*zis finally decided to arrest him.
> 
> ...


Danger Danger Danger 
Someone will bring up HvK, and we'll be off again.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

"Hero" might be the most misused word there is. Composers as heroes? What, for the music they write? I finally get to vote "This is a stupid question" in one of ArtMusic's polls.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

I think it maybe would be Arvo Pärt and other Soviet bloc composers, who continued along despite state opposition.

Also of course Shostakovich and Prokofiev, who didn't leave the USSR but stayed behind to resist in their own ways and often at great personal cost and continual danger for so long.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

consuono said:


> I think it maybe would be Arvo Pärt and other Soviet bloc composers, who continued along despite state opposition.
> 
> Also of course Shostakovich and Prokofiev, who didn't leave the USSR but stayed behind to resist in their own ways and often at great personal cost and continual danger for so long.


Not Prokofiev. He left after the 1917 Revolution, built his career in various places e.g. USA, France, and returned to Soviet Union in 1936.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

The word Hero is used pretty casually, but having thought about it, I do have one: Rimsky-Korsakov. No prodigy, he was pretty much self-taught yet wrote music that was original, wonderful any highly influential. He promoted lesser known composers. He rescued a vast amount of Music from oblivion by editing and arranging. His autobiography offers incredible insight into late 19th c music. The orchestration book is still used. RK stood up to the ruling class taking the side of the students in the 1905 uprising, ultimately looking his position. Without him, 20th music would have been decidedly different, he was so influential on his many famous students. So in the huge pantheon of great composers, Nicolai Rimsky-Korsakov is my hero.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Not Prokofiev. He left after the 1917 Revolution, built his career in various places e.g. USA, France, and returned to Soviet Union in 1936.


Right. But he did go back.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

consuono said:


> Right. But he did go back.


He did. I wonder why?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Pat Fairlea said:


> He did. I wonder why?


I have no idea. I haven't really investigated Prokofiev's biography much, but I think I read somewhere that he sneered at Stravinsky for being an exile.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

consuono said:


> I have no idea. I haven't really investigated Prokofiev's biography much, but I think I read somewhere that he sneered at Stravinsky for being an exile.


He went back because the Soviet government made it clear to him that they loved his music (mostly), would allow him to live well, provide him with excellent living quarters, get his music played, allow him to compose at will, and show him that They Cared--in other words, for someone like Prokofiev who cared only for his music and also liked the Good Life, it was too good a deal to pass up. Troubles came later, after it was too late to think about leaving.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Strange Magic said:


> He went back because the Soviet government made it clear to him that they loved his music (mostly), would allow him to live well, provide him with excellent living quarters, get his music played, allow him to compose at will, and show him that They Cared--in other words, for someone like Prokofiev who cared only for his music and also liked the Good Life, it was too good a deal to pass up. Troubles came later, after it was too late to think about leaving.


I dunno. I'll have to look at some biographies.

OK, Shostakovich then.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Pat Fairlea said:


> No, I don't do heroes because people are complex and imperfect.
> That said, I have huge respect for Alexander Borodin. Born illegitimate, worked his way up to a well-respected Chemistry prof, argued successfully for medical training for women, reliable friend to those in need. Oh, and he wrote some lovely music in his spare time. Good bloke.


Borodin has always been a great individual who wrote some lovely and unique Russian symphonies that have similarity to the Classical era. His Polovtsian Dances is so iconic it's hard not to at least admire. This is also a decent dreamy piece:

*7:33-10:12*


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

As much as I love classical music, I don't consider my favorite composers to be heroes of mine, people to which I would use model my own behavior, as if to say, "What would Beethoven do in this situation?"

I think the heroes among us are to be found not among the famous, the super-talented, or even the brave. It's the ordinary people who live ordinary lives and do their best to love and take care of family responsibilities, are kind to their friends, are willing to put in a honest day's work, are fair in business transactions, are good to animals, and try when they can to give something back to society; they are the heroes, and they're people you meet every day. 

Even so, I'm eternally thankful for Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Wagner (yes, even Wagner!), Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Ravel, Richard Strauss, Sibelius, Shostakovich, Stravinksy, Schoenberg, etc. because they succeeded in bringing some beauty into this weary world.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> Borodin has always been a great individual who wrote some lovely and unique Russian symphonies that have similarity to the Classical era. His Polovtsian Dances is so iconic it's hard not to at least admire. This is also a decent dreamy piece:
> 
> *7:33-10:12*


Tchaikovsky wrote to his patron that Borodin could hardly write a single measure of music without outside help, and I often wonder to what extent the members of the Mighty Five, Balakirev, Cui, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Rimsky; and those associated with the inner circle such as Glazounov might have collaborated in one another's works.

But even of the other members of The Five helped Borodin his rather slim number of opuses has an unusually high hit-to-miss ratio.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Coach G said:


> Tchaikovsky wrote to his patron that Borodin could hardly write a single measure of music without outside help, and I often wonder to what extent the members of the Mighty Five, Balakirev, Cui, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Rimsky; and those associated with the inner circle such as Glazounov might have collaborated in one another's works.
> 
> But even of the other members of The Five helped Borodin his rather slim number of opuses has an unusually high hit-to-miss ratio.


Based on my categorization here, I think Borodin was more of an Impressionist/Classicist. I don't hear a lot of middle-ground Romanticism in his music, but he widely influenced Debussy and Ravel and had a mild Classical sometimes mild-Bachian structure to his music (esp. less popular works.)

Tchaikovsky probably didn't comprehend the unique genre of Impressionism-Classical as well as other early Russians did, hence why he can think so lowly. He was more of-his-time, not to speak of actual quality, but Borodin was thinking a bit more ahead in ideology. His music sounds more recent.

Even Rimsky-Korsakov sounds Late Romantic, I don't hear it in Borodin. Late Romantic was stuck on the details; Impressionism wanted to highlight the expression and appreciation of tonality, not trivialize the process.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Coach G said:


> Tchaikovsky wrote to his patron that Borodin could hardly write a single measure of music without outside help, and I often wonder to what extent the members of the Mighty Five, Balakirev, Cui, Borodin, Mussorgsky, Rimsky; and those associated with the inner circle such as Glazounov might have collaborated in one another's works.
> 
> But even of the other members of The Five helped Borodin his rather slim number of opuses has an unusually high hit-to-miss ratio.


Someone who described himself as "A Sunday-afternoon composer" probably did accept help and advice from others. Why not? And Tchaikovsky was not above being decidedly catty when the mood took him. What was it he called Brahms: "That talentless b*st**d"?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mozart was literally an idol in my previous faith. I never felt any artist or person move me the way he did. I understood full well how Tchaikovsky felt, calling him his musical Christ. He was able to make me feel joy, peace, sadness, beauty, anger, despair. It was a bit scary.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Bernstein would possibly come closest because of his commitment to putting the argument over that the world of classical music is there for all and shouldn't have to be inhabited solely by a select minority.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Some people were a bit offended that the actor, Lee Marvin, was buried in a grave alongside three-and four-star generals at Arlington National Cemetery. His marker gives his name, rank (private first class) and service (U.S. Marine Corps) ... nothing else. Here's a guy who was only a famous movie star and served his time; why the heck does he rate burial with these guys? Lee Marvin was a genuine hero. He earned the Navy Cross at Iwo Jima. There is only one higher award ... the Medal of Honor. Lee Marvin credits his sergeant with an even greater show of bravery. One evening on "The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson," Johnny Carson was talking to his guest Lee Marvin:

"Lee, I'll bet a lot of people are unaware that you were a Marine in the initial landing at Iwo Jima and that during the course of that action you earned the Navy Cross and were severely wounded."

"Yeah, yeah ... I got shot in the bottom and they gave me the Navy Cross for securing a hot spot about halfway up Suribachi," he said. "Bad thing about getting shot up on a mountain is guys getting shot hauling you down. But, Johnny, at Iwo I served under the bravest man I ever knew. We both got the Navy Cross the same day, but what he did for his cross made mine look cheap in comparison.

"That dumb guy actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. Bullets flying by, with mortar rounds landing everywhere and he stood there as the main target for gunfire so that he could get his men to safety. He did this on more than one occasion because his men's safety was more important than his own life. That sergeant and I have been lifelong friends. When they brought me off Suribachi we passed the sergeant and he lit a smoke and passed it to me, lying on my belly on the litter, and said 'where'd they get you Lee?' 'Well Bob ... if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse!' Johnny, I'm not lying, *Sergeant Milton Babbitt *was the bravest man I ever knew.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I've always been struck by the story of Enrique Granados refusing space in a rescue boat following the torpedoing of the boat on which he was traveling in order to aid his wife. Both drowned, alas.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Bwv 1080 said:


> ...
> 
> "That dumb guy actually stood up on Red Beach and directed his troops to move forward and get the hell off the beach. Bullets flying by, with mortar rounds landing everywhere and he stood there as the main target for gunfire so that he could get his men to safety. He did this on more than one occasion because his men's safety was more important than his own life. That sergeant and I have been lifelong friends. When they brought me off Suribachi we passed the sergeant and he lit a smoke and passed it to me, lying on my belly on the litter, and said 'where'd they get you Lee?' 'Well Bob ... if you make it home before me, tell Mom to sell the outhouse!' Johnny, I'm not lying, *Sergeant Milton Babbitt *was the bravest man I ever knew.


Hmmm. I'm going to have to read some biographies. From the Wikipedia article on Babbitt:

"During the Second World War, Babbitt divided his time between mathematical research in Washington, D.C., and Princeton, where he was a member of the mathematics faculty from 1943 to 1945."

He apparently got around.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

If one googles one's name......


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