# What makes a piece of music creepy? What are your all time favorites?



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

I'll start by listing my two examples of music I think are creepy, one is Rachmaninoff's Isle of the Dead, and the other is oiseaux tristes by Ravel (part of Miroirs). I'm doing a project, and I think it would help to know what's out there, and maybe some theory behind why music can be creepy. Runners up include pohjola's daughter by Sibelius, and Saturn by Holst (The Planets). So I ask again for other creepy classical music out there, and why some pieces are and aren't?


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

Any music becomes creepy if it's used in a horror movie, even Mozart!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Very low bass drones. Choir with harmonic intervals that differ from the major third. (Yes, even ambiguous fifths can be creepy.) Beginning quietly but gradually encroaching in volume. Any music with these things can be creepy even if not intended.

I'll provide examples when I get home.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Stockhausen Gesang Der Jünglinge for me.. dementedly creepy.

Takemitsu's music, though I heard some that weren't creepy, exceptions really.. Others, mostly modern and contemporary compositions, I can not remember the authors or titles very well, because I do not linger and listen to them. I will post later, if I recall something else.

Evenly sustained sound, almost on the same note for the longer period of time makes anything sound eerily creepy, again the titles escape me.


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## micro (Jun 18, 2016)

When it sounds like this.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

^
yeah, that's crazy, I don't know who's mad enough to have this on their background for whatever reason.

Choirs add nice creepy touch, and if there were childrens choir there I'd be running for hills already after 30 seconds of listening.

Still listening to Stockhausen Luzifers Abschied, it definitely achieved what it set out to accomplish.. those all sorts of sibbilant, gurgling throaty, and other noices add unexpectedly realistic and methaphysical hellish dimension. It does sound like evil and misery, and maybe insanity.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Manok said:


> Runners up include pohjola's daughter by Sibelius....


Interesting that you mention Pohjola's Daughter, in that it also contains some of the most exultant, exalting, invigorating music that Sibelius (or anybody) ever composed. But Sibelius was good at that sort of thing.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Marinera said:


> Takemitsu's music, though I heard some that weren't creepy, exceptions really..


Wait, what? I find Takemitsu's music very even-keeled and peaceful, usually.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I can't define it, but I have always found the minuet to Mozart's c-minor Serenade very creepy sounding.


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## Lyricus (Dec 11, 2015)

Minor chords typically do the trick. I think you could classify creepy in with a few other minor feelings and get an overall _haunting_. Vivaldi's minor concertos (Winter and Il Sospetto immediately come to mind) definitely embody the creepy/haunting feeling, though it's more fast-paced.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Mahlerian said:


> Wait, what? I find Takemitsu's music very even-keeled and peaceful, usually.


I don't know what to say, surely it is not just me?

Just to make sure, because I haven't heard Takemitsu for some time, I clicked randomly Takemitsu And then I knew t'was wind and then Rain spell. Hair at the back of my neck stands within half a minute, and it is just plain spooky.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Marinera said:


> I don't know what to say, surely it is not just me?
> 
> Just to make sure, because I haven't heard Takemitsu for some time, I clicked randomly Takemitsu And then I knew t'was wind and then Rain spell. Hair at the back of my neck stands within half a minute, and it is just plain spooky.


I could understand maybe labeling Requiem for String Orchestra as "creepy," perhaps (it's quite Bergian), but that's not a typical mode or mood for Takemitsu, and like I said above, I find both of the pieces you listed very even-tempered, sensual, and beautiful. To me, Takemitsu's music exudes a feeling of inner satisfaction and sublimity, and I don't find anything threatening or frightening about it.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I could understand maybe labeling Requiem for String Orchestra as "creepy," perhaps (it's quite Bergian), but that's not a typical mode or mood for Takemitsu, and like I said above, I find both of the pieces you listed very even-tempered, sensual, and beautiful. To me, Takemitsu's music exudes a feeling of inner satisfaction and sublimity, and I don't find anything threatening or frightening about it.


This shouldn't be surprising, since what is "creepy" is largely subjective. My nephew thought that Eno was creepy, although I found it to be soothing.
The diminished scale can be used for creepy effects, as it has a minor-ish sound, with an unstable fifth. I get this effect from Bartok often.
Music associated with the *Twilight Zone* TV series is creepy to me, because I saw the programs when they originally aired in the early 1960s, and was "imprinted" with these sounds. A harpsichord was used in one of the shows, and this still evokes feelings of dusty, dank, ancient, evil scenarios, with perhaps a skeleton from the past thrown in.
Many people (like my nephew) find that sustained tones create a sense of tension. They must have been imprinted, and this is somewhat unfortunate, as Indian rags and other 'drone' music do not create this sense of tension in me at all. Plus, I never heard Indian music until long after the Twilight Zone, so I wonder if this is context-dependent. Surely it is, or Indian raga drones would make me uncomfortable, which they do not.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Mahlerian said:


> I could understand maybe labeling Requiem for String Orchestra as "creepy," perhaps (it's quite Bergian), but that's not a typical mode or mood for Takemitsu, and like I said above, I find both of the pieces you listed very even-tempered, sensual, and beautiful. To me, Takemitsu's music exudes a feeling of inner satisfaction and sublimity, and I don't find anything threatening or frightening about it.


It is just how individual sounds are made, I cannot articulate it very well, the music doesn't have this actively sinister tone, but the overall effect is quietly uncomfortable.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

millionrainbows said:


> This shouldn't be surprising, since what is "creepy" is largely subjective. My nephew thought that Eno was creepy, although I found it to be soothing.
> The diminished scale can be used for creepy effects, as it has a minor-ish sound, with an unstable fifth. I get this effect from Bartok often.
> Music associated with the *Twilight Zone* TV series is creepy to me, because I saw the programs when they originally aired in the early 1960s, and was "imprinted" with these sounds. A harpsichord was used in one of the shows, and this still evokes feelings of dusty, dank, ancient, evil scenarios, with perhaps a skeleton from the past thrown in.
> Many people (like my nephew) find that sustained tones create a sense of tension. They must have been imprinted, and this is somewhat unfortunate, as Indian rags and other 'drone' music do not create this sense of tension in me at all. Plus, I never heard Indian music until long after the Twilight Zone, so I wonder if this is context-dependent. Surely it is, or Indian raga drones would make me uncomfortable, which they do not.


I'm on the same page with your nephew, Eno is a little too mysterious for me also., but not in the same league with Takemitsu.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I suspect listeners bring a lot of their own perceptions to the table when it comes to creepiness (maybe it reminds you of a certain movie soundtrack?). Or maybe we just don't agree what the word means. I don't find most of the mentioned works to be at all creepy.

Britten's Dirge from his Serenade is creepy to me:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Marinera said:


> It is just how individual sounds are made, I cannot articulate it very well, the music doesn't have this actively sinister tone, but the overall effect is quietly uncomfortable.


Well, I suppose that the lack of triadic harmony will make something sound alien and unfamiliar if you don't listen to much contemporary music.

Just to clarify for anyone else looking at this conversation, this is the kind of piece that strikes me as particularly characteristic of Takemitsu's work:


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Just to confuse things, some of Webern's music is "creepy," and I think this was intentional on his part. I always associate this with World Wars I and II and the horrors which Webern seemed to have predicted. The "zeitgeist" so to speak, and he was tuned in to it.











Some of the "creepy" elements include flutter-tongued flutes, militaristic snare drum rolls in the distance, muted trumpets, obsessively repeating phrases. It reminds me of one of Yves Tanguy's bleak surrealistic landscapes.

*Yves Tanguy*



In fact, instead of no-no-ing this kind of association, I encourage it. This imagery might draw a new listener into Webern. I see nothing wrong or simplistic about feeling uneasy in the presence of modern music. To me, there is no "cheating" when it comes to approaching art; by any means necessary.

Learn more at Uploaded by user


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Yesterday I listened to the "concerto macabre", by Herrmann, on a radio station. I have to give a second listen but I didn`t like and I didn't find it that "macabre". Nevertheless, it reminded me the Anxiety symphony, by Bernstein, for piano & orchestra, which I personally find creepier that Herrmann's composition.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Obvious candidates for 'creepy' sounding music:

Ligeti
Kurtág
Bartók
Stockhausen
Xenakis
Crumb
Feldman
Takemitsu
Hersch
Reimann
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Lutosławski
Haas
Barrett


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"God Bless America" sung by Kate Smith. Boy, that's creepy: McCarthyism, Communist fear, militaristic manipulations....


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Interesting that you mention Pohjola's Daughter, in that it also contains some of the most exultant, exalting, invigorating music that Sibelius (or anybody) ever composed. But Sibelius was good at that sort of thing.


I read one point the history behind the piece and I think it's the story attached more than the actual music.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Manok said:


> I read one point the history behind the piece and I think it's the story attached more than the actual music.


The Kalevala inspired Sibelius to write much of his music, either as a direct commentary upon a specific tale and/or protagonist, or as a more general depiction of mood and inferred action. But I think even if a listener knew nothing of the Kalevala, things like En Saga, the Four Legends, Nightride and Sunrise, would induce feelings of exultation and exaltation in many listeners.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Bernard Herrmann was a master at creepy music, his Sinfonietta for Strings in its full dodecaphonic glory is pretty creepy. He did borrow some of the music from this work for his later score to Psycho.






Another dodecaphonic work by Jerry Goldsmith is quite creepy.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)




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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Mahlerian said:


> Well, I suppose that the lack of triadic harmony will make something sound alien and unfamiliar if you don't listen to much contemporary music.
> 
> Just to clarify for anyone else looking at this conversation, this is the kind of piece that strikes me as particularly characteristic of Takemitsu's work:


I had posted elsewhere that Takemitsu's A Way A Lone II strikes me as surreal, mysterious or outré, but that's not quite the same thing as creepy to me. Creepy is a mere subset of surreal / mysterious / outré.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

This will sound crazy but when I was young I used to think the double basses in Beethoven's 3rd Symphony, Scherzo were creepy. It's the way they oscillate or pulsate and gradually _creep_ up on you or descend into the deep notes into near inaudibility. I'm somehow lucky enough to have found some of it isolated:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The only thing that creeps me out is music used for propaganda activities or productions. And any of those disgusting skinhead neo nazi punk bands. Nothing in the classical music world could be deemed creepy in my mind.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Weston said:


> This will sound crazy but when I was young I used to think the double basses in Beethoven's 3rd Symphony, Scherzo were creepy. It's the way they oscillate or pulsate and gradually _creep_ up on you or descend into the deep notes into near inaudibility. I'm somehow lucky enough to have found some of it isolated:


Same for when I was a kid, it still is a bit unsettling, though for me it was the dark militaristic nature of the piece that creeped me out. It wasn't till years later that I realized that, I still find it some what eerie, but less so nowadays.


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

It all depends on context in my opinion. No music is creepy by itself. I think this is especially clear in movies. In the right setting easy-listening and harmonious music that is in contradiction with what you're seeing (for instance a gruesome murder scene) can be very creepy.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Militaristic is creepy? Here in the US, when our grandparents heard militaristic music, they marched off to war. They're now known as "the greatest generation." Where does that leave us?


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Should we be finding war, death, and violence... inspiring rather than disturbing?

The Eroica is a musical masterpiece, although I can see some not liking it and even being disturbed by it. I remember a young African kid talked about in Matthias Pintscher's video in this thread, who thought the 5th symphony to be disturbing and terrifying. Should he have been inspired to march off to war? Where does that leave him?


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

Morimur said:


> Obvious candidates for 'creepy' sounding music:
> 
> Ligeti
> Kurtág
> ...


Pretty much all of those are either heavy or dissonant or both, I also wouldn't consider most of the music of those composers to be creepy at all. This thread was destined for this kind of subjectivity though.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2016)

Weston said:


> This will sound crazy but when I was young I used to think the double basses in Beethoven's 3rd Symphony, Scherzo were creepy. It's the way they oscillate or pulsate and gradually _creep_ up on you or descend into the deep notes into near inaudibility. I'm somehow lucky enough to have found some of it isolated:


Well it upset my cat!


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2016)

Xenakiboy said:


> Pretty much all of those are either *heavy*


It's bad enough agreeing what might be creepy...and you go and introduce 'heavy'??


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> It's bad enough agreeing what might be creepy...and you go and introduce 'heavy'??


I well often works by Bartok, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Lutoslawski, Haas, alongside specific pieces by Schoenberg and Webern have a common use of rhythmic syncopation, timbral and polyphonic textures that I think constitute heaviness, I think it's the same as calling a piece of music melodic. Some music is melodic, some is not but it doesn't impact it's quality.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Creepy and demented, yet nothing on the chilling psychopathy and affectless madness to come!


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Casebearer said:


> It all depends on context in my opinion. No music is creepy by itself. I think this is especially clear in movies. In the right setting easy-listening and harmonious music that is in contradiction with what you're seeing (for instance a gruesome murder scene) can be very creepy.


Effortlesly creepy, tv screen can be on static. That would be even creepier in my opinionuta certain KISS band member)






Theme from the original Omen


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

A few comments:

The only pieces of music by Ligeti I find creepy are "Apparitions", "Requiem" and a certain passage in his violin concerto involving ocarinas (you all know what I'm talking about if you've heard the piece). "Atmospheres" is a lot more inspiring and expansive than creepy. The majority of Ligeti's repertoire strikes me more as humorous or playful than creepy.

There are a few pieces by Penderecki I find a little creepy, such as "The Song of Solomon" and certain parts of St. Luke's Passion.

There's a composer named Istvan Marta that almost no one except for myself and anyone else who bought the Kronos Quartet's recording of "Black Angels" has heard of. Anyway, his piece "Doom, a Sigh" is pretty creepy to me, mostly because of the weeping voice in the background: 




And finally, it's perhaps a little embarrassing for me to admit, and far be it from me to mention film music on this site , but I saw this movie when I was 11 or 12, it was the first horror movie I had ever watched and it made an impression on me. Thus I find this movie music theme from "The Ring" to be pretty creepy: 




Probably the musical elements I find most creepy are vocals that don't sound quite like vocals should sound (to a point...death metal vocals are not creepy in the slightest). And music that sounds eerily hollow, which is probably why the ending of Shostakovich's 15th gets so many people. Also, detuned instruments can make for some pretty creepy music if used correctly.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

> Thus I find this movie music theme from "The Ring" to be pretty creepy:


This is unpleasant. Tinkling music and child singing and all that can achieve this effect.

But this:


> Anyway, his piece "Doom, a Sigh" is pretty creepy to me, mostly because of the weeping voice in the background:


Is sick. Feel nauseaus.

I'll go better find me some Bach restorative.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Marinera said:


> This is unpleasant. Tinkling music and child singing and all that can achieve this effect.
> 
> But this:
> 
> ...


Great. That means I picked some good ones!

Here, what you think of this one? The aforementioned Song of Solomon by Penderecki:


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I think classical music can have all kinds of wonderful shades of darkness, but "creepy", I don't know. 

Ambient and other atmospheric music can be creepy when certain sounds/samples are used that vaguely hint at sinister events taking place. Such sounds have to applied in a really subtle way, because there's a fine line between creepy and cheesy.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

DeepR said:


> I think classical music can have all kinds of wonderful shades of darkness, but "creepy", I don't know.
> 
> Ambient and other atmospheric music can be creepy when certain sounds/samples are used that vaguely hint at sinister events taking place. Such sounds have to applied in a really subtle way, because there's a fine line between creepy and cheesy.


Oh ya, the presence of DeepR reminds me that I used to find Scriabin's music incredibly creepy, especially the 4th and 5th piano sonatas. Don't think so any more, although the ambiguous harmonies that begin his 4th sonata can still be a little disconcerting.


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

How about these?!

Krzysztof Penderecki - Cello Concerto No. 1:





Beat Furrer - Piano Concerto:





Gloria Coates - Symphony No. 2 "Illuminatio in Tenebris":





György Ligeti - Hamburg Concerto:









Horațiu Rădulescu - Iubiri:





Morton Feldman - Coptic Light:









Ştefan Niculescu - Ison II:


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

But seriously folks - some more non C20 music


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

violadude said:


> Great. That means I picked some good ones!
> 
> Here, what you think of this one? The aforementioned Song of Solomon by Penderecki:


I listened to the whole work, so no one could say I missed the best bits.The 'chorus' - moaning? is especially disturbing. Not that I expected it to burst into a song or some Gloria. I was just wondering how anything one finds creepy can be a favourite. At least not to this degree like here. It makes me really curious to know who's out there who really likes this Song of Solomon, and just why and how, and it is astounding to me, that someone buys it for the repeated listening. This music embodies all the most disturbing, torturous, agonising and most unpleasant human feelings and experiences that collectively exist in some metaphysical dimension. And here's the sound recording of this dimension. Not very enjoyable.

I'll never ever complain about Mahler's 5th 1st and 3d movements again, i never did...much before, but now I'm no longer even tempted 

Geez.. just remembered Chopin's Funeral March.. I really don't want to have Chopins complete works for this reason


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## zhopin (Apr 7, 2016)

Speaking of Penderecki, I can name quite a few of his works I find disturbing... I'm not sure if this was already mentioned, but especially Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima:






I can understand why, given the name.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Marinera said:


> *I was just wondering how anything one finds creepy can be a favourite. At least not to this degree like here. It makes me really curious to know who's out there who really likes this Song of Solomon, and just why and how, and it is astounding to me, that someone buys it for the repeated listening*.
> 
> *This music embodies all the most disturbing, torturous, agonising and most unpleasant human feelings and experiences that collectively exist in some metaphysical dimension*.


I think you answered your own question there


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

Marinera said:


> I listened to the whole work, so no one could say I missed the best bits.The 'chorus' - moaning? is especially disturbing. Not that I expected it to burst into a song or some Gloria. I was just wondering how anything one finds creepy can be a favourite. At least not to this degree like here. It makes me really curious to know who's out there who really likes this Song of Solomon, and just why and how, and it is astounding to me, that someone buys it for the repeated listening. This music embodies all the most disturbing, torturous, agonising and most unpleasant human feelings and experiences that collectively exist in some metaphysical dimension. And here's the sound recording of this dimension. Not very enjoyable.
> 
> I'll never ever complain about Mahler's 5th 1st and 3d movements again, i never did...much before, but now I'm no longer even tempted
> 
> Geez.. just remembered Chopin's Funeral March.. I really don't want to have Chopins complete works for this reason


I am one of those who got this for repeated listening. And I wonder why and how so many people out there expect music to be just sweet or relaxing or such. While it's normal for many people that novels, movies, paintings etc. do not necessarily have to be "beautiful", "relaxing" or "sweet", still by so many of them music only has to be "beautiful", "relaxing" or "sweet", I wonder!


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Sina said:


> I am one of those who got this for repeated listening. And I wonder why and how so many people out there expect music to be just sweet or relaxing or such. While it's normal for many people that novels, movies, paintings etc. do not necessarily have to be "beautiful", "relaxing" or "sweet", still by so many of them music only has to be "beautiful", "relaxing" or "sweet", I wonder!


A lot of classical music is hardly sweet and relaxing, like Mahler's symphonies, or Beethoven's, there are enough dark and heavy themes in them, but I find the expression of this particular piece Song of Solomon a little extreme. So I've been wondering what makes people prefer such music, especially to listen to it often. The effect on human psyche it makes is not positive, I'm sure. And stretching my imagination some I can actually imagine going and listening to it if it's opera and seeing a production like Stockhausen's Luzifers Abschied, for curiosity and experience, because perhaps I would like to see how it materializes on stage. What I don't really comprehend is living with this type of music and its variations from day to day or even with any sort of regularity.


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

Marinera said:


> A lot of classical music is hardly sweet and relaxing, like Mahler's symphonies, or Beethoven's, there are enough dark and heavy themes in them, but I find the expression of this particular piece Song of Solomon a little extreme. So I've been wondering what makes people prefer such music, especially to listen to it often. The effect on human psyche it makes is not positive, I'm sure. And stretching my imagination some I can actually imagine going and listening to it if it's opera and seeing a production like Stockhausen's Luzifers Abschied, for curiosity and experience, because perhaps I would like to see how it materializes on stage. What I don't really comprehend is living with this type of music and its variations from day to day or even with any sort of regularity.


I might not be the mentally healthiest person, but I have Edvard Munch's The Scream on a wall in my room, and Picasso's Guernica on another. Books by Dostoyevsky, Kafka, Beckett, Sartre, Camus and Conrad are among those I've read more than once. Also Kubrick, Hitchcock, Aronofsky, Pasolini, and so on.
Also, totally incomparable with anything "dark" by likes of Mahler or Beethoven. Totally.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

^


> *Also, totally incomparable with anything "dark" by likes of Mahler or Beethoven. Totally.*


Well, yes, that's what I mean. It is a little too close to the real thing. Like for instance, one can try to express bird song or windy day in music, or record actual bird song and the wind in the turbines, so this is actually made too close to sound like the real thing. 
And I don't try to imply that people listening to this music are mentally unstable. I was reflecting whether some, maybe had difficult experiences, or if this is perceived purely on the intellectual level and there exists some detachment from the emotional content (I've been thinking if it is even possible too). In case of difficult experiences what I mean take F. Bacon for example, and his paintings. He commented saying something in effect like ' why do you expect me to paint flowers, when I lived through WW2', well the meaning was this and some more, though my quote is not exact of course.

Note: Although now I think my grandparents survived WW2 and I can't imagine them listening to these music pieces Penderecki and others. I wouldn't dare even to play it in my grandmother's hearing. It's not her sound I'm sure.


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

Marinera said:


> ^
> 
> Well, yes, that's what I mean. It is a little too close to the real thing. Like for instance, one can try to express bird song or windy day in music, or record actual bird song and the wind in the turbines, so this is actually made too close to sound like the real thing.
> And I don't try to imply that people listening to this music are mentally unstable. I was reflecting whether some, maybe had difficult experiences, or if this is perceived purely on the intellectual level and there exists some detachment from the emotional content (I've been thinking if it is even possible too). In case of difficult experiences what I mean take F. Bacon for example, and his paintings. He commented saying something in effect like ' why do you expect me to paint flowers, when I lived through WW2', well the meaning was this and some more, though my quote is not exact of course.


Exactly Francis Bacon is the perfect example I failed to mention (since I favor him even more than Munch and perhaps Picasso), and what you quoted from him is just the best explanation (as far as my experience is concerned).


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## Sina (Aug 3, 2012)

Marinera said:


> ^
> 
> Note: Although now I think my grandparents survived WW2 and I can't imagine them listening to these music pieces Penderecki and others. I wouldn't dare even to play it in my grandmother's hearing. It's not her sound I'm sure.


Of course people are different and the same (extreme) experiences are going to have different effects on different souls and make different results, so different. Not all the war survivors wind up as musicians or writers or taxi drivers or architects, only some will become doctor, some other chemists, some other pilots, and so on.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

^
Yes, I see. Personal responses and motivations are subjective, and not always align with the expectations of others.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Carl Orff's Carmina Burana freaked a bunch of people out in the US in the years approaching WWII. This was due not only to the music, but the fact that it was 'pagan' sounding, and was coming out of Germany at this particular time. Apparently it was thought to embody the 'zeitgeist' of what was happening in Europe.
Apparently this 'creepiness' was in the music itself to the degree that it was still effective today by its close imitation by the music in 'the Omen' series of movies.

Which brings me to a point closely related to my thread in the religion/music forum: are there 'universal' elements which can be said to produce feelings of fear or 'creepiness'? For further discussion, wouldn't this 'fear' music be the opposite of 'religious' music?

Here are some possible 'universal' constants of 'creepy' or 'fear-inducing' music:

1. Sustained drones which create tension or expectation of the worst

2. Chromatic lines which do not outline consonant triads

3. Wide leaps, as in violin, which are unsettling

4. Minor-ish and diminished harmonic elements, with closely-spaced notes and unstable fifths

5. Musical phrasing which simulates slow breathing, or slow intake/release of breath

Of course, this attempt for objectivity flies in the face of those here who would maintain that feelings of fear are totally subjective. These egotists, or separatists, are unwilling to admit that, as human beings, we are more alike than different. To admit to these objective triggers would be to admit that they are no different than anyone else, and that 'creepiness' is as universal as an operatic element which moves large audiences. My Orff example is good proof that people are affected en masse by art.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> 1. Sustained drones which create tension or expectation of the worst


All sustained drones (some are fairly peaceful) or just the ones "which create tension or expectation of the worst"?--of course _those ones_ are creepy.



millionrainbows said:


> 2. Chromatic lines which do not outline consonant triads


Depends on context.



millionrainbows said:


> 3. Wide leaps, as in violin, which are unsettling


Wide leaps in general? Does that make most of Chopin's oeuvre "creepy"?



millionrainbows said:


> 4. Minor-ish and diminished harmonic elements, with closely-spaced notes and unstable fifths


Can be creepy. Depends on musical context.



millionrainbows said:


> 5. Musical phrasing which simulates slow breathing, or slow intake/release of breath


Also depends on context.



millionrainbows said:


> Of course, this attempt for objectivity flies in the face of those here who would maintain that feelings of fear are totally subjective. These egotists, or separatists, are unwilling to admit that, as human beings, we are more alike than different.


"Are unwilling to admit that" is rather uncharitable phrasing, isn't it? And while we're more alike than different in general, whether or not that applies to perception of Western musical systems is... less than certain.



millionrainbows said:


> To admit to these objective triggers would be to admit that they are no different than anyone else, and that 'creepiness' is as universal as an operatic element which moves large audiences.


Unwarranted psychologizing. If you have an argument, make it. It's rude to belittle others' arguments as nothing more than repressions and hang-ups.



millionrainbows said:


> My Orff example is good proof that people are affected en masse by art.


No one would argue that people aren't affected en masse by art, but these people are (as far as I know) always share a culture. It doesn't prove anything regarding musical objectivity, just cultural homogeneity.

That's not to say I completely disagree with you. The five elements you've selected often do seem "creepy," but I'd guess it's probably because they're basic deviations from Western practice (what I assume most of us grew up listening to). Anything that deviates from "normal" naturally has the potential to unsettle us. But that doesn't make these elements Platonically creepy in any and all cases.

By your "objective" standards, this:






Should be creepier than this:






But I'm not sure very many people would say that (or I wouldn't, at any rate).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

...But if the context is right, most people would agree that a creepy effect is present. You're putting the cart before the horse, and trying to use these universally-agreed-on effects as generators of new creepiness, and that was not my approach. I'm simply extracting these constants in order to objectify a rather messy, contentious defense of subjective self-containment; containment which will do nothing to establish common ground or principles, but only reinforce a self-satisfied sense of righteous entitlement which reveals nothing except point-by-point invalidation of the other.

Let us celebrate our shared creepiness. Why keep it to yourself? Of course, I forgot: your creepiness is not my creepiness. Then what purpose does this thread have?


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

I wonder if there is anyone who listens to scary and creepy music for adrenaline jolts.. like some do by watching horror movies.

Probably not the right thread for this question. Got sidetracked into 'whys'


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## zhopin (Apr 7, 2016)

Marinera said:


> I wonder if there is anyone who listens to scary and creepy music for adrenaline jolts.. like some do by watching horror movies.
> 
> Probably not the right thread for this question. Got sidetracked into 'whys'


That's an interesting thought. I can't say I'd want to listen to some of these late at night for an adrenaline jolt ha.

Although I love Chopin's Funeral March, and I personally don't find it so disturbing...


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> ...But if the context is right, most people would agree that a creepy effect is present. You're putting the cart before the horse, and trying to use these universally-agreed-on effects as generators of new creepiness, and that was not my approach. I'm simply extracting these constants in order to objectify a rather messy, contentious defense of subjective self-containment; containment which will do nothing to establish common ground or principles, but only reinforce a self-satisfied sense of righteous entitlement which reveals nothing except point-by-point invalidation of the other.
> 
> Let us celebrate our shared creepiness. Why keep it to yourself? Of course, I forgot: your creepiness is not my creepiness. Then what purpose does this thread have?


You've lost me.


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

The pleasure for "creepy" music is something deeply rooted in man's nature. It is supposed that a primitive form of music was strictly ritualistic. "Flutes played in dark caves mimicking the bellowing of animals" (cf. Aeschylus, fragment 71 - about a Dionysian rite). It's the evocation of the animal nature of man (after all Pan was a pipe player): both frightening and sensual...


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

^
Fascinating, that explains it to some extent. By nature, I am more drawn towards Orpheus type of music rather than Pan's. 
Better leave the beast alone and asleep.


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## sloth (Jul 12, 2013)

It's the old duality Apollonian v. Dionysian. The whole history of music could be seen as a struggle between these two poles.

Quoting from wikipedia:
Apollo is the god of reason and the rational, while Dionysus is the god of the irrational and chaos. 
The Apollonian is based on reason and logical thinking. By contrast, the Dionysian is based on chaos and appeals to the emotions and instincts. 

I admit this is an oversimplified view, but that could work well to describe some processes at work in music. The 20th century avant-garde seems to go towards Dionysus (although since the Viennese school many composers are struggling to give a theoretical & rational excuse for their "wild" outputs...). 

But... we have to be careful to draw conclusions because in fact Apollo is the cruel one, often depicted with a knife in his hand, he's the one who flayed Marsyas who thought he was a better musician. And in the myth poor Dionysus is boiled, roasted and then eaten by the Titans (we know Beethoven did the same some centuries later  ).

Rationality could be highly (self)destructive and dangerous.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Adam Weber said:


> You've lost me.


Good! Anything to distract you from that point-by-point response.

Now, BOOM! That's startles most people. Perhaps this is universal.


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## Adam Weber (Apr 9, 2015)

millionrainbows said:


> Good! Anything to distract you from that point-by-point response.
> 
> Now, BOOM! That's startles most people. Perhaps this is universal.


What startles most people?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Orff's _In taberna quando sumus_ was playing on the car stereo when my nephew, then just under 4 years old, said: "Oooh! This is evil music!"


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Militaristic is creepy? Here in the US, when our grandparents heard militaristic music, they marched off to war. They're now known as "the greatest generation." Where does that leave us?


It was something about the texture and the key, remember I was a kid .


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