# Round One: Il Segreto Per Esser Felice ( Lucrezia Borgia) Clara Butt and Sigrid Onegin



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

People wanted a second round so we will have one. There are very few operatic arias for Clara Butt.





Lucrezia Borgia: Il segreto per esser felice (Recorded 1909) · Clara Butt · Gaetano Donizetti





Lucrezia Borgia: Il segreto per esser felice (Recorded 1921) · Sigrid Onegin · Gaetano Donizetti


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## ewilkros (8 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Unless there is a clamoring for more contestants....


Consider me clamoring for going backwards to Schumann-Heink (it was a specialty of hers; she did multiple recordings, always with great galumphing good fun + faultless technical chops), and forward to early Horne.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Oh dear. This s one of those times when I prefer more recent interpeters of this, like Horne and Verrett.

When I was little I remember my grandparents had a 78" record of Dame Clara Butt singing _Land of Hope and Glory _and _God save the King_. We all thought it was hilarious and I never can quite dispel feelings of hilarity whenever I hear her sing. That cavernous, baritonal chest voice conjures up visions of Hinge & Brackett (if you don't know who they are, you should definitely look them up), though I aadmit her flexibilty and trill are qute impressive.

Onegin is not as good when it comes to technical matters like flexibilty and trills, but is also a little anonymous.

I'm voting for Butt - just for comic value. At least she made me laugh.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

The only time it might be permissable to just post - I love Butt! 

She's excellent, and I love that baritonal chest voice. Onegin is good too but I'm more fond of Butt here.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I liked Sigrid Onegin better. But I did not listen as attentatively as usual, I just needed to play this in the kitchen to unwind. I might change my mind later.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> The only time it might be permissable to just post - I love Butt!
> 
> She's excellent, and I love that baritonal chest voice. Onegin is good too but I'm more fond of Butt here.


The size of her exceptionally low voice was supposed to defy belief. One must remember how extraordinarily rare a voice like this was and is. I think it sounds strange to us because we have never heard another voice like it. I think it sounds like this 6'2" Victorian lady was having some fun.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

("... extraordinarily rare ..") ... and with VERY-few reissues of her legacy. I have an Arabesque/cassette one, with Elgar, Handel, plus Dvorak's Four Biblical Songs (remarkable!), plus, of course, the Donizetti "Il Segreto".


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Wow, great comparisons; "gotta" go with Clara Butt, though. Her articulation and ability to TRANSVERSE THE QUICK changes (from one note to another) wins-out, for me, and she even manages some NICE trills towards the end. Thanks to Seattleoperafan for HAVING these fine, Nimbus reissues ... and -> to Ed/ewilkros, GOOD MENTION of Madame Schumann-Heink, as well! I think ALL of these pre-Marilyn Horne recordings were made OVER a century ago. Maybe that gives us another good idea, of how vocalism has progressed, or regressed, over 100 years or more.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Wow, great comparisons; "gotta" go with Clara Butt, though. Her articulation and ability to TRANSVERSE THE QUICK changes (from one note to another) wins-out, for me, and she even manages some NICE trills towards the end. Thanks to Seattleoperafan for HAVING these fine, Nimbus reissues ... and -> to Ed/ewilkros, GOOD MENTION of Madame Schumann-Heink, as well! I think ALL of these pre-Marilyn Horne recordings were made OVER a century ago. Maybe that gives us another good idea, of how vocalism has progressed, or regressed, over 100 years or more.


God I forgot about Madame SH! My mother saw her in her youth in Hattiesburg, MS.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> God I forgot about Madame SH! My mother saw her in her youth in Hattiesburg, MS.


Great! ... Maybe your mother saw Robert Johnson, Skip James, Mississippi John Hurt (or others) in those or later years, also. Wow, THERE'S a nice contrast - somewhat-stately contraltos, with Delta blues singers - eh?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Great! ... Maybe your mother saw Robert Johnson, Skip James, Mississippi John Hurt (or others) in those or later years, also. Wow, THERE'S a nice contrast - somewhat-stately contraltos, with Delta blues singers - eh?


OT. Although I am from MS I never knew about Mississippi Delta Blues singers till I moved to Seattle. My best friend who I ride around one afternoon a week listening to all sorts of music introduced me to them like I have introduced her to opera. What they do with a guitar is amazing!!! I really enjoy them. I try to play them at least once a month for us.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> OT. Although I am from MS I never knew about Mississippi Delta Blues singers till I moved to Seattle. My best friend who I ride around one afternoon a week listening to all sorts of music introduced me to them like I have introduced her to opera. What they do with a guitar is amazing!!! I really enjoy them. I try to play them at least once a month for us.


Very good! ... and R Johnson (albeit, short-lived) was a master of the bottleneck, as was Eddie "Son" House, also from Mississippi. Bukka White (a cousin of B. B. King) was remarkable, as well (Parchman Farm Blues). ... Well, Dame Clara Butt was even-MORE remarkable, in her somewhat-limited output of recordings! The best recordings of singers who recorded, even-BEFORE the electrical era (of transcriptions) is LONG, as in "The Record of Singers"/EMI, in it's 5 volumes.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Very good! ... and R Johnson (albeit, short-lived) was a master of the bottleneck, as was Eddie "Son" House, also from Mississippi. Bukka White (a cousin of B. B. King) was remarkable, as well (Parchman Farm Blues). ... Well, Dame Clara Butt was even-MORE remarkable, in her somewhat-limited output of recordings! The best recordings of singers who recorded, even-BEFORE the electrical era (of transcriptions) is LONG, as in "The Record of Singers"/EMI, in it's 5 volumes.


I'll surprise her with some of these. Thanks.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'll surprise her with some of these. Thanks.


Right .. and a SURPRISE it'll probably be ... as it would, for most people. They (House/Bukka/Hurt/James) are not forgotten, though, entirely ... and Robert Johnson is often characterized as the "King" of the country blues, for good reason. Take care, and hope there'll be more responses, about "Il Segreto".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ewilkros said:


> *Consider me clamoring for going backwards to Schumann-Heink *(it was a specialty of hers; she did multiple recordings, always with great galumphing good fun + faultless technical chops), and forward to early Horne.


I second this clamoring - emphatically.

For this round I'll go with Butt.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I second this clamoring - emphatically.
> 
> For this round I'll go with Butt.


I'll do a second round with ESHeink then.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

89Koechel said:


> I have an Arabesque/cassette one, with Elgar, Handel, plus Dvorak's Four Biblical Songs (remarkable!), plus, of course, the Donizetti "Il Segreto".


I had to check her Biblical songs ! They are in English, but sound very good. I must forward it to my mother, she loves those.

(OK, I am lying a little, it is soooo weird  )


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I didn’t like Onegin’s vibrato-less _sostenuti _at all, but the rest of her voice is sumptuous and handles the alacritous passages well enough. Like her colleague, Butt can’t trill but her traversal of the piece is passable.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I didn't know either version of this and I find it interesting how back then this was very much contralto fare, whereas now it's usually sung by mezzos. (Are contraltos now calling themselves mezzos?)

Butt sounds weird, but I can't say she sings this badly. I think I prefer Schumann-Heink and I'm not sure what to think about the slowed down second verse. Good, but there are better versions of this aria.

Onegin is just a name to me. (I have heard something in the past, but wasn't particularly taken.) Onegin is singing in German? (Could be Martian for all her diction is worth.)

I prefer Butt.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I agree with those who have mentioned Schumann-Heink and Verrett. Could we have a second round with three contestants and include Horne?

N.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I didn't know either version of this and I find it interesting how back then this was very much contralto fare, whereas now it's usually sung by mezzos. (Are contraltos now calling themselves mezzos?)
> 
> Butt sounds weird, but I can't say she sings this badly. I think I prefer Schumann-Heink and I'm not sure what to think about the slowed down second verse. Good, but there are better versions of this aria.
> 
> ...


I think it's just that nobody trains as a proper contralto nowadays. If modern technique teaches that you musn't train to have a properly developed lower voice then contraltos are pretty pointless.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I agree with those who have mentioned Schumann-Heink and Verrett. Could we have a second round with three contestants and include Horne?
> 
> N.


I am planning on Eugenia Mantelli, ES-Heink, and Horne. I would take out historically well received Mantelli and do Verrett if there were strong feelings about it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I think it's just that nobody trains as a proper contralto nowadays. If modern technique teaches that you musn't train to have a properly developed lower voice then contraltos are pretty pointless.


They are also perhaps the rarest vocal type and with the dearth of people going into classical singing it means that many less. Also since the tuning key ( whatever you call it) has gone up almost a whole tone and that could really limit things a contralto could sing unless she is a contralto like Ewa Podles who has 4 octaves at her disposal. Podles CAN sing mezzo but her color is contralto which is why she sounds odd to some people.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> They are also perhaps the rarest vocal type and with the dearth of people going into classical singing it means that many less. *Also since the tuning key ( whatever you call it) has gone up almost a whole tone and that could really limit things a contralto could sing* unless she is a contralto like Ewa Podles who has 4 octaves at her disposal. Podles CAN sing mezzo but her color is contralto which is why she sounds odd to some people.


Tuning pitch has been close to standard for a long time, certainly since the time of Onegin and Butt. Before that it was all over the place, and singers complained about the pitch in different cities. I suspect you're thinking mainly of Baroque music.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Tuning pitch has been close to standard for a long time, certainly since the time of Onegin and Butt. Before that it was all over the place, and singers complained about the pitch in different cities. I suspect you're thinking mainly of Baroque music.


The great pitch inflation Perhaps I described it wrong but this article explains what I was referring to with pitch inflation and the difficulty it placed on singers.. There was a great article on it in the NYTimes but you have to have a subscription. Because the orchestra was so all important in Vienna it was tuned almost a half note sharp to give it that very bright sound which means Nilsson was practically singing C# in Turandot there.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I know a contemporary contraalto Alessandra Visentin.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Tuning pitch has been close to standard for a long time, certainly since the time of Onegin and Butt. Before that it was all over the place, and singers complained about the pitch in different cities. I suspect you're thinking mainly of Baroque music.


I thought concert pitch was slowly rising. Tebaldi complains about it in _The Last of the Prima Donnas. _For a soprano with a short top, as she was, it must have been a nightmare.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I thought concert pitch was slowly rising. Tebaldi complains about it in _The Last of the Prima Donnas. _For a soprano with a short top, as she was, it must have been a nightmare.


Pitch has varied somewhat and on average has risen over the last three centuries, but not nearly by a whole tone as Seattleoperafan stated. In fact, the pitch heard on some baroque organs and commonly used by early music ensembles today is only about a half tone lower than the modern standard of A-440. I doubt that _any_ tuning has ever been a whole tone below ours. Before A-440 was widely adopted, pitch varied locally, and singers had good reason to complain when they performed in various cities. I suspect Tebaldi had many, many occasions to complain.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Butt is incomparable portraying a drunken youth. Though both voices are beautiful in their own way.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Onegin sounds better to me in this 1928 electric:
Donizetti: Lucrezia Borgia - Il segreto per essere felici - Sigrid Onegin, mezzosoprano - YouTube

She turns it into a showpiece for sure, but that trill is pretty amazing.


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