# Harnoncourt's Beethoven Symphonies 1-9



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

What are your thoughts on this cycle with the COE? I find them so passionate, and it's my favorite take on them I've heard so far.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Him and Pinnock are two favorite conductors.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's a great set of the 9, no doubt. I am curious to hear how it stacks up against the new COE edition with YNS that just came out. But I do have say that my current favorite chamber versions of the symphonies is with Paavo Jarvi and the Bremen orchestra on RCA. They are just more lively, energetic and dare I say fun? Not to mention the spendid SACD sound that RCA got. I'm not going to toss out the Harnoncourt recordings though; they are still quite fine.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> It's a great set of the 9, no doubt. I am curious to hear how it stacks up against the new COE edition with YNS that just came out. But I do have say that my current favorite chamber versions of the symphonies is with Paavo Jarvi and the Bremen orchestra on RCA. They are just more lively, energetic and dare I say fun? Not to mention the spendid SACD sound that RCA got. I'm not going to toss out the Harnoncourt recordings though; they are still quite fine.



I'll have to try out that new COE one.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

One reason I love Harnoncourt's so much, is that it stood out as unique to me and I loved the versions. To love another, would have to be very different than this one, and capture my heart and mind just as much.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

This new set is sounding incredible!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I remember when this came out in 1991(?) There was a promo CD with an interview and excerpts I bought for about 5 German marks before getting the whole set. Before I had had the Kegel/Dresden because this was the cheapest in the late 1980s (and I had had a few others on LP).

Harnoncourt was very different from anything one had heard before. I had heard some of the original instruments Beethoven on the radio (most likely Norrington or Hogwood), this was mostly "thin sounding" and fast. Harnoncourt was sometimes also fast, sometimes not, it sounded neither like the typical large orchestra nor like a HIP group. Especially prominent were the woodwind details.

Even then I was not entirely convinced by Harnoncourt's 5th and 9th, both "unique" but a bit too lightweight (my comparisons were Kleiber in 5 and Karajan 1960s in 9, two legendary recordings that are still prime recommendations), and it's been a while that I listened to it at all (as I rarely listen to Beethoven symphonies nowadays) but I always found 1-4, 7 and 8 very good and holding up well. Harnoncourt is too original (sometimes even mannered) to be the only and rarely the first recommendation but always among the first for interesting alternative interpretations.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Like Kreisler, I've not played it in many years and I've always reached for Mackerras / RLPO in preference over it (Mackerras is livelier, more consistent and smashes quite a few) but Harnoncourt has always been a fine set and I'd recommend it heavily over the YNS cycle. I do remember that last time I listened, and reviewed it, the 4th and 9th didnt satisfy me as much as the rest of the set but I really enjoyed the early symphonies and the 7th (to a lesser degree) a lot.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have two discs (4-7) of the Mackerras/Liverpool and they are good but the approach is pretty close to Toscanini or Leibowitz in modern sound, i.e. fast, straightforward, reasonably powerful and not too lean with full modern orchestra. Although it is from the same time as Harnoncourt's it was not well known/distributed in continental Europe, I think; I only encountered it much later, in the early 2000s or so. The same applies to the Gielen (slightly later, on EMI). 
In any case, Harnoncourt's is sufficiently different to be an interesting alternative even 30 years later, I think.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I guess the comparison/competition when it came out was the Gardiner set and British critics at the time leaned slightly towards Gardiner as the more "revolutionary". Personally, I loved the Harnoncourt recordings and bought them as they came out. Like all great Beethoven conductors he created his own Beethoven sound. His interpretations were somewhat radical (at the time) but rarely if ever at the expense of the music. Gardiner's set was more extreme, albeit somewhat superficially, and for me had some good moments but missed so much. He later recorded a couple of symphonies live and they were much better as you could hear his interpretations had matured and it seemed that his original set had just been recorded too early. Of all the sets produced around that time it is Harnoncourt's that for me has not dated or come to sound rather formulaic. Harnoncourt was a true and rare musician.

Norrington's original set was a little better than Gardiner's IMO but sometimes a little scrappy - he has since given us a truly great Beethoven set (i.e. from Stuttgart). Others have come and gone!

Edit: As Mackerras is getting some attention here I have to say that for me he doesn't come close to the greatness and distinctiveness of Harnoncourt! He was a very competent and hard working conductor but he rarely seemed to tell us anything new about music he conducted and seemed to be missing the "special" quality that the best have. I would almost say "routine" but that is probably going too far.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I wasn't comparing Mackerras and Harnoncourt stylistically. I just got them at the same time and preferred Mackerras' more Toscanini-like style. With so many roads to nirvana in the Beethoven symphony cycles we're all going to have different opinions. As you know, I do agree witg Enthusiast about Norrington's SWR cycle, which remains one of my fave cycles of the many I have. I should revisit Harnoncourt again though. Its been far too long since I've played any of those. The box is looking very battered these days but the discs are still pristine.


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## MartinDB (9 mo ago)

I love the set but it was my introduction to Beethoven's symphonies. I reach for it less nowadays but when I do it feels like it stands the test of time. I would single out the 6th which surprisingly (to me) isn't mentioned above. I find that performance incredibly moving, it feels like something spiritual has happened as it draws to a close. 

I have less time for the Mackerras, which doesn't excite me, and tend towards Abbado (BPO, the late live set) or Chailly (Gewandhaus) or Barenboim (Staatskapelle, for sound) otherwise. I am trying Krivine now. Jarvi sounds interesting.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

MartinDB said:


> I love the set but it was my introduction to Beethoven's symphonies. I reach for it less nowadays but when I do it feels like it stands the test of time. I would single out the 6th which surprisingly (to me) isn't mentioned above. I find that performance incredibly moving, it feels like something spiritual has happened as it draws to a close.
> 
> I have less time for the Mackerras, which doesn't excite me, and tend towards Abbado (BPO, the late live set) or Chailly (Gewandhaus) or Barenboim (Staatskapelle, for sound) otherwise. I am trying Krivine now. Jarvi sounds interesting.


My introduction too. Conversely, it was his 6th that made me start to look elsewhere. I still love the cycle.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

The Harnoncourt/COE is a great set. It was pioneering at its time, combining the freshness of HIP and the mellowness of modern instruments (although they used some period brass for sure). I was living in the UK when it was released. I remember Gramophone going crazy about it, and the BBC relaying Harnoncourt/COE's Beethoven concerts. It even won a Gramophone award. However, time has progressed. Many great sets have appeared since then, be it HIP, conventional or a mix. Today, it sounds more conservative than I remembered, but this is not a criticism, as there is always a place for all kinds of playing styles in Beethoven. (Even Mr. Cobra's).

Mine looks slightly less battered than Merl's.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Merl said:


> I wasn't comparing Mackerras and Harnoncourt stylistically. I just got them at the same time and preferred Mackerras' more Toscanini-like style.


Nor was I. I like a variety of styles but want to feel that the music has (inner) life, that the performances grow out of the music ... or, I suppose, the conductor's perception of the music. I know we've discussed the Mackerras Beethoven set before but that's the reason why I rarely warm to Mackerras's music making - he performs rather than realises if that makes sense. There is a dimension missing for me.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Kiki said:


> Mine looks slightly less battered than Merl's.


Hey Kiki, bear in mind that's the 2nd copy of it I've owned. I got it many years ago (it was an Xmas prezzie) then sold it on to a guy desperate to have it. Years later I was online and there was a copy on Ebay for £3 so I rebought it about 3 years ago. Unfortunately the 'very good' description was slightly inaccurate with reference to everything but the discs (that are pristine). The box is battered and the booklet is falling to pieces. I would have complained to the seller but for £3 (p&p included) it really wasn't worth it. Haha. You can still pick a decent secondhand copy up on Ebay for less than a fiver. Saw one today, actually.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

"good" is really the worst description ever...  
Because it can be understood literally but also euphemistically and the latter is usually the case here (because in "mint/excellent/very good/good/fair" or some similar grading, "good" is around or below average...)
I have, from professional! used/new vendors received items with the "good" description that were almost like new but also that were barely acceptable (or not even that, e.g. missing stuff or badly scratched).


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Chilham said:


> My introduction too. Conversely, it was his 6th that made me start to look elsewhere. I still love the cycle.


Interesting, at least to me, since the 6th is the only one which sticks out from the set, being dreadfully deliberate.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I'm listening to Harnoncourt's _Eroica_ now for the first time, and I've only just finished the second movement before starting to jot down my thoughts. The first movement is played at quite a brisk tempo; I haven't timed it but I'm guessing he's closer to the metronome marks than most conductors. I read that the trumpets were the only instruments that weren't modern, but I did notice that the horns could sound quite a bit darker than I'm used to with modern instruments. The timpani also sound a bit different, and they are brought forward in the sound picture (something I particularly noticed in the second movement). The other big difference in the sound is that the balance is shifted away from the strings, since the string section is evidently quite a bit smaller than a modern symphony orchestra's. This helps the winds come through clearly. It's a feature I have also noticed in Harnoncourt's slightly later Brahms cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic. The more I hear of (post-Baroque) Harnoncourt, the more I like. I would describe him as a non-conformist; everything is rethought from scratch, and he is not dogmatic towards either the modern performance schools or the historically-informed approach. I will certainly be listening to more of his Beethoven in the near future. I don't think I can give _all_ the laurels to this performance, but I am intrigued, and that is saying something in repertoire that has been recorded so many dozens of times.















Seems like there is a new-ish reissue (by Warner, not Teldec) of Harnoncourt's recordings of all the major Beethoven orchestral works.



Kiki said:


> [...] Today, it sounds more conservative than I remembered, but this is not a criticism, as there is always a place for all kinds of playing styles in Beethoven. (*Even Mr. Cobra's*).


After looking into Maximianno Cobra, I must dissent; this is a travesty of Beethoven's work! Other than ridiculous edge cases like this, though, this is such an oft-repeated maxim and I would agree. It makes it difficult for collectors, though, since the "best" performance cannot be obtained. I like to hear a variety of interpretations and Harnoncourt's Beethoven (so far, at least) is certainly different from anything else I've heard, falling somewhere in between the modern style of Karajan and the historically-informed approach of Gardiner or Norrington. Hard to believe I've overlooked this set until now.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> Nor was I. I like a variety of styles but want to feel that the music has (inner) life, that the performances grow out of the music ... or, I suppose, the conductor's perception of the music. I know we've discussed the Mackerras Beethoven set before but that's the reason why I rarely warm to Mackerras's music making - he performs rather than realises if that makes sense. There is a dimension missing for me.


Well put. I’ve always wondered why I don’t care for Mackerras and now I know

There’s one exception on record - and that’s the Prague Mozart. In the opera house he could be entertaining enough in Janacek, but I really don’t know the music at all it the entertainment factor may have been more due to the booze in the bar beforehand than the music.

Things aren’t helped by the fact that I once heard Benjamin Britten say that Mackerras was a terrible homophobe, I think he was persona non grata at Aldeburgh . . .


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Well put. I’ve always wondered why I don’t care for Mackerras and now I know
> 
> There’s one exception on record - and that’s the Prague Mozart. In the opera house he could be entertaining enough in Janacek, but I really don’t know the music at all it the entertainment factor may have been more due to the booze in the bar beforehand than the music.
> 
> Things aren’t helped by the fact that I once heard Benjamin Britten say that Mackerras was a terrible homophobe, I think he was persona non grata at Aldeburgh . . .


I think Mackerras shared an anecdote about that. Apparently, he had felt concerned for the safety of a boy singer in some production they were doing together. Britten got to hear about it and was horrified that anyone could think him so incontinent.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Monsalvat said:


> I'm listening to Harnoncourt's _Eroica_ now for the first time, and I've only just finished the second movement before starting to jot down my thoughts. The first movement is played at quite a brisk tempo; I haven't timed it but I'm guessing he's closer to the metronome marks than most conductors.


The fastest are usually around 15:00 min with repeat, Harnoncourt is about 15:50, so it's fast but not superfast and also a bit more flexible than many of the fastest ones.



> The other big difference in the sound is that the balance is shifted away from the strings, since the string section is evidently quite a bit smaller than a modern symphony orchestra's. This helps the winds come through clearly. It's a feature I have also noticed in Harnoncourt's slightly later Brahms cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic. The more I hear of (post-Baroque) Harnoncourt, the more I like. I would describe him as a non-conformist; everything is rethought from scratch,


That's certainly his claim, and while some things can appear mannered (and maybe simply are), as I remember it 30 years ago that Beethoven felt very "fresh", maybe also because these were live recordings with a youngish chamber orchestra. 
I find Harnoncourt's post-Beethoven recordings as far as I have heard them, a mixed bag. I didn't care for the Brahms symphonies at all, the Schubert is interesting but a bit too weighty and charmless for the early symphonies. The Schumann symphonies are pretty normal, neither as interesting nor as strange as some others. My favorite of his (late) romantic recordings is probably Bruckner's 5th.


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