# Schubert and Bruckner



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Schubert and Bruckner



















Forget about being labeled as a "Wagner symphonist" label, Bruckner is much as influenced by Schubert's heavenly length as much one can imagine. It has been said that Bruckner takes the torch of Schubert's Great C major symphony even further, with its repetitions, length and enchanting harmonies.

A program note author wrote that Schubert's 15th string quartet is particulary "a tortured Bruckner symphony". I have been listening to Bruckner and I think he is a great symphonist. 



> Bruckner is the first composer since Schubert about whom it is possible to make such generalizations. His symphonies deliberately followed a pattern, each one building on the achievements of its predecessors.... His melodic and harmonic style changed little, and it had as much of Schubert in it as of Wagner.







Thoughts?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm a greater fan of Bruckner than I expected to be. I haven't really listened to Schubert's, delving more into his chamber works, piano sonatas and lieder. They are probably close in degree of likeability for me though, not top tier, but warranting monthly or bimonthly listening


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Sonata said:


> I'm a greater fan of Bruckner than I expected to be. I haven't really listened to Schubert's, delving more into his chamber works, piano sonatas and lieder. They are probably close in degree of likeability for me though, not top tier, but warranting monthly or bimonthly listening


Have you listened to Schubert's last two symphonies, Sonata?


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I own them, but I have not listened yet. I plan to do so soon


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I love Schubert's last two symphonies (and enjoy the others). I can definitely see a connection, particularly with the "Great" C major. I enjoy all of Bruckner's symphonies (don't worry about the versions yet), especially 3 (original version), 4 (1881 version), 5, 8 (revised version), and 9. His music has a very unique quality to it that yes, resembles late Schubert about as much as or more than Wagner (from whom he primarily took the idea of enharmonic modulation). It is not terribly surprising that both composers' reputations have gained significantly in the last 100 years.

I haven't heard many of Schubert's religious works, but Bruckner's Masses and Te Deum are certainly worth checking out.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> I love Schubert's last two symphonies (and enjoy the others). I can definitely see a connection, particularly with the "Great" C major. I enjoy all of Bruckner's symphonies (don't worry about the versions yet), especially 3 (original version), 4 (1881 version), 5, 8 (revised version), and 9. His music has a very unique quality to it that yes, resembles late Schubert about as much as or more than Wagner (from whom he primarily took the idea of enharmonic modulation). It is not terribly surprising that both composers' reputations have gained significantly in the last 100 years.
> 
> I haven't heard many of Schubert's religious works, but Bruckner's Masses and Te Deum are certainly worth checking out.


Te Deum is really fantastic.  You should listen to Schubert masses especially the A Flat an dthe last one in E flat. They were very architecturally large and very moving. Here is a sample, Mahlerian  The Sanctus in Mass no.5 is not like I ever heard before.






Mass in E Flat - Agnus Dei


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Sonata said:


> I own them, but I have not listened yet. I plan to do so soon


You would like them if you like Bruckner's! They have this kind of similarity that I really enjoy. I am enjoying Bruckner because of Schubert.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> Te Deum is really fantastic.  You should listen to Schubert masses especially the A Flat an dthe last one in E flat. They were very architecturally large and very moving. Here is a sample, Mahlerian  The Sanctus in Mass no.5 is not like I ever heard before.


Those are indeed tantalizing samples. I'll be sure to listen to them in full soon!


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

peeyaj...
_*Forget about being labeled as a "Wagner symphonist" label, Bruckner is much as influenced by Schubert's heavenly length as much one can imagine. It has been said that Bruckner takes the torch of Schubert's Great C major symphony even further, with its repetitions, length and enchanting harmonies.*_

I so agree with the comparison. And you are not alone. I recently saw Dohnányi conduct Bruckner no. 4 paired with Schubert's "Unfinished" no. 8.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Going any further than Schubert's 9th is going too far. 

I appreciate Bruckner for the opening of his 4th symphony, but his loud heavy brass makes me nauseous, it's as if that's the only way he knows brass instruments can play. I have noticed some aspects of Buckner's music and the way he made his own standard forms and internal structures for various movements can be compared to Schubert's symphonies in the way you describe. I like Schubert better though.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Schubert's three-key-expositions correspond with Bruckner's expanded expositions consisting of three (groups of) themes. Also, they both don't really put a whole lot of weight on the development section, at least compared to, say, Beethoven. They focus more on the exposition and reprise of their themes.

Schubert's string quartet in g major and his piano sonata in b flat major particularly strike me as foreshadowing Bruckner in terms of scope and structure.

It is said that Bruckner's favourite symphony was the Eroica. Still, despite his admiration for Beethoven and Wagner, I feel that Bruckner was much closer to Schubert's style and sensibility.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Going any further than Schubert's 9th is going too far.
> 
> I appreciate Bruckner for the opening of his 4th symphony, but his loud heavy brass makes me nauseous, it's as if that's the only way he knows brass instruments can play. I have noticed some aspects of Buckner's music and the way he made his own standard forms and internal structures for various movements can be compared to Schubert's symphonies in the way you describe. I like Schubert better though.


Bruckner uses the brass at every dynamic level: piano, mezzo-piano, mezzo-forte, forte, fortissimo, triple fortissimo, and Bruckner Fortissimo, which includes the famous rhythm and a figure in the clarinet behind it that really can't be heard at all!

Seriously, though, he does use the brass in other ways.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I also hear a lot of Schubert in Bruckner, a certain side of Schubert... and it ain't the Trout. (I love the Trout though.) I've been listening to Schubert's masses lately and #5 is almost Brucknerian. The Gloria will knock you off your feet! It's got all the contrapunctal majesty of Bach, but through a personal, as opposed to impersonal, voice. (Like the Son, opposed to the Father... or something like that.)


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Xaltotun said:


> I also hear a lot of Schubert in Bruckner, a certain side of Schubert... and it ain't the Trout. (I love the Trout though.) I've been listening to Schubert's masses lately and #5 is almost Brucknerian. The Gloria will knock you off your feet! It's got all the contrapunctal majesty of Bach, but through a personal, as opposed to impersonal, voice. (Like the Son, opposed to the Father... or something like that.)


From Wiki:

_The ( Schubert) late masses may have influenced the composition of Bruckner's Mass in F minor._

It's here. It's so lovely, isn't it?* Schubert is Bruckner in steroids!*






Unfortunately, Schubert's sacred works is not highly regarded as his other compositions. I wish people would more like them. They are some of his finest works.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Bruckner uses the brass at every dynamic level: piano, mezzo-piano, mezzo-forte, forte, fortissimo, triple fortissimo, and Bruckner Fortissimo, which includes the famous rhythm and a figure in the clarinet behind it that really can't be heard at all!
> Seriously, though, he does use the brass in other ways.


Mahlerian, I know you're joking but the brass can be way too dominant on recordings using close-mic techniques. Compare these to a Bruckner recording from the 50s and 60s, much more balanced in many cases.

In addition, one conductor's mezzo-forte is another conductor's forte. Someone like Jochum is very balanced overall whereas some other conductor's brass can be over-the-top. (IMO, and I won't mention any names)


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think Schubert is the greater. His melodic invention, songs and chamber pieces were more intimate that Bruckner's.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

davinci said:


> Mahlerian, I know you're joking but the brass can be way too dominant on recordings using close-mic techniques. Compare these to a Bruckner recording from the 50s and 60s, much more balanced in many cases.
> 
> In addition, one conductor's mezzo-forte is another conductor's forte. Someone like Jochum is very balanced overall whereas some other conductor's brass can be over-the-top. (IMO, and I won't mention any names)


You are correct, and Bruckner's balances are problematic at times, so the conductor does have to find a way to work around them.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

IMHO, it's dead wrong to say that "Bruckner's melodic and harmonic style changed little " over the years .
If you llisten to the 8th and 9th symphonies, you will notice how progressively more radically innovative his melodic and harmonic methods have become . 
The 9th symphony anticipates 20th century harmony to an astonishing degree, especially when you realize that he was born in 1824, when Beethoven and Schubert were still alive . The savage scherzo sounds almost like Bartok at times . The climax of the adagio, his last completed movement (at least that we know given the rumors about the finale), is a fiercely dissonant tone cluster . 
The oipening theme of the adagio sounds more like Schoenberg than a typical 19th century composer . The sense of key is extrmely vague .


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

superhorn said:


> IMHO, it's dead wrong to say that "Bruckner's melodic and harmonic style changed little " over the years .
> If you llisten to the 8th and 9th symphonies, you will notice how progressively more radically innovative his melodic and harmonic methods have become .
> The 9th symphony anticipates 20th century harmony to an astonishing degree, especially when you realize that he was born in 1824, when Beethoven and Schubert were still alive . The savage scherzo sounds almost like Bartok at times . The climax of the adagio, his last completed movement (at least that we know given the rumors about the finale), is a fiercely dissonant tone cluster .
> The oipening theme of the adagio sounds more like Schoenberg than a typical 19th century composer . The sense of key is extrmely vague .


Actually the climax is a dominant 13th chord (7 notes), which, although radical (the editor of the first publication changed it to a regular dominant 7th, and Robert Simpson, in his book, "The Essence of Bruckner", calls it horrifying), is quite different from a tone cluster. That's not to say that these, or other features in his symphonies, aren't progressive, and the original versions of his 3rd and 4th are actually far more radical than the revisions (he tended to streamline as he revised).

Intriguingly, the minor 9th opening the 9th's adagio is echoed in Mahler's 9th's finale.

All of that said, I think that Bruckner's style changed more by increments. He added to and refined it over the years, rather than going through any large-scale changes (works from before his artistic maturity excepted).


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

ArtMusic said:


> I think Schubert is the greater. His melodic invention, songs and chamber pieces were more intimate that Bruckner's.


There's no question of that.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

ArtMusic said:


> I think Schubert is the greater. His melodic invention, songs and chamber pieces were more intimate that Bruckner's.


Bruckner is pretty much the opposite of intimate, going for the objective and the sublime, although I do think that he offers us glimpses of his soul by means of a "shadow-play"... if you paint the whole world and leave just yourself out, the observer need only to look what's missing. Hmm, I'm not quite satisfied with that analogy. How about: a Bruckner symphony describes the world. To see Bruckner, the listener should look at the world that he sees, and ask himself: what kind of eyes would I need to see this world the way Bruckner describes it in his music? OK, I like that one better. So: Bruckner describes objective things through a very personal point of view.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

One thing that sets Bruckner apart from Schubert, and indeed from most Austro-German composers of the romantic era, is his apparent lack of interest in literature. Schubert's songs and overtures reveal a certain interest in and familiarity with the poetry and theatre of his time. Same goes for Schumann (Hoffmann), Beethoven (Goethe, Schiller), Wagner of course, right up to Mahler (Achim/Brentano, Rückert, Goethe). It is said that Bruckner owned hardly any books, apart from the bible.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Bruckner is a very devout Catholic unlike Schubert.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> Bruckner is a very devout Catholic unlike Schubert.


Schubert was not religious? Well, he wrote wonderful masses anyway. One wouldn't suspect.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Andreas said:


> Schubert was not religious? Well, he wrote wonderful masses anyway. One wouldn't suspect.


 Let's say on his masses, he regularly removed passages about "the one holy church". He's a problematic Catholic. More of a Pantheist, I say. 



> Already known for consistently omitting certain passages from the text, Schubert took even greater freedoms in the late masses, adding and removing text in a bid to "deepen expression or enhance a particular aspect of meaning





> His omission of certain passages of the Mass text-for instance those relating to belief in 'one holy, catholic and apostolic church' and (in all but his first Mass setting) to 'the resurrection of the dead'-has led commentators to speculate about the nature of Schubert's personal faith.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I had imagined that Schubert had been, not devout, but... that he had a silent and personal, but still child-like faith. It's interesting to learn that this was not so.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I amend:

*BRUCKNER *is *SCHUBERT* in steroids!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Whenever I hear Bruckner's '00' and '1' they bring to mind Mendelssohn and maybe Beethoven and von Weber rather than Schubert. As the cycle progresses in terms of both maturity and emotional impact I always think more along the lines of Wagner goes to church but I can detect a Schubert connection despite not finding it as obvious.


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## linzjonz (May 16, 2013)

I've always thought that the Scubert model for all the Bruckner symphonies is the late great string quintet in C.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

This is a connection that's made sense to me when listening to Bruckner. A striking example that always occurs to me is the lament played by the oboe in the adagio of Bruckner's 6th, just as in the andante of Schubert's 9th.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sonata said:


> I own them, but I have not listened yet. I plan to do so soon


Oh man, that's a whale of an experience to miss out on.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Bruckner music sounds no where near that of schubert.


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## Timindfw (Apr 9, 2013)

I wish I had your enthusiasm for Bruckner. I own and have listened multiple times to his Symphonies 7 and 8, but am always left flat. Schubert, though, is quite another story!


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

Timindfw said:


> I wish I had your enthusiasm for Bruckner. I own and have listened multiple times to his Symphonies 7 and 8, but am always left flat. Schubert, though, is quite another story!


Try listening to some of Bruckner's adagios to understand the man. They are mesmerizing and spiritual. The 3rd movement of Symphony 8 is a masterpiece. Next try the adagios from #9 and #7.


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