# Schoenberg or Miles Davis?



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Another crazy cross-genre poll. Maybe not that crazy. Which album/work do you prefer: Schoenberg String Quartet No. 4 or Miles Davis' Kind of Blue. Easy pick for me, since I'm not a huge Davis fan. But I suspect many don't feel the same. I intentionally picked something with small ensemble for Schoenberg for a more level comparison.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Easy. Miles. Word.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I prefer Kind of Blue, and by far.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

1000% going to have to rock with Miles. That's one of my favorite albums. Not to say the Schoenberg isn't also great, though I haven't spent nearly as much time with it.

Edit: My name here is a bit of a dead giveaway.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

Not even close. Kind of Blue is one of the pillars of jazz. A more level comparison would have been Kind of Blue v. Beethoven's 131.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Miles Davis' Kind of Blue, hands down.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I used 'level comparison' meaning both are in small ensemble only, rather than have a solo piano or orchestral vs jazz ensemble. It's a fine example of early atonality vs fine example of modality. Personally I hear a lot more potential in that composed Schoenberg atonal work than the improvised modality in the Davis.

An example offhand when I was just listening now. From 15:30 to 15:45, with the exchange between Davis and Evans, the accented chord at the beat on 15:37 feels anticlimactic. Evans was already feeling around and *reacting* with more interesting compliment to what Davis just played right before. Then on the beat they played something together what Bill was *unprepared* for, and sounds banal compared to the before, which Bill *reacted* afterwards by playing a different more interesting complimentary chord while Davis is holding that note. Notice the highlight words; it's too reactive.

I believe that is an example of the limitation of improvised modal jazz. The modal patterns lend themselves to being in sync all the time (you just can't go wrong), but with little room for spontaneous creativity. On the other hand, the Schoenberg being more composed, lends itself first of all to counterpoint and to more interesting harmonizations on the beat. Feel free to retort.

BTW. The pianist in that clip is actually Kelly, not Evans.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

I tend to prefer jazz over string chamber music, but in this case I will go with Schoenberg. It ain't Beeethoven, but it sure bounces!


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Miles. By miles and miles. One of the greatest works of art in human history.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Can't decide...love 'em both.


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## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

this comparison doesn't make sense and not because of the cultural or the musical difference.... one goes for a cool and serene vibe and the other is an intensely expressionist fever dream.... i love both


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I used 'level comparison' meaning both are in small ensemble only, rather than have a solo piano or orchestral vs jazz ensemble. It's a fine example of early atonality vs fine example of modality. *Personally I hear a lot more potential in that composed Schoenberg atonal work than the improvised modality in the Davis.*


We all have our opinions. 



> An example offhand when I was just listening now. From 15:30 to 15:45, with the exchange between Davis and Evans, the accented chord at the beat on 15:37 feels anticlimactic. Evans was already feeling around and *reacting* with more interesting compliment to what Davis just played right before. Then on the beat they played something together what Bill was *unprepared* for, and sounds banal compared to the before, which Bill *reacted* afterwards by playing a different more interesting complimentary chord while Davis is holding that note. Notice the highlight words; it's too reactionary.


Jazz is reactionary - that is how it works.

On _Kind of Blue_, Wynton Kelley played on "Freddie Freeloader", he'd mistakenly showed up for the date and to avoid an embarrassing moment Miles told him to play the first song. It's a *straight blues*, with one chord substitution, the Flat-VII instead of the last tonic chord - not modal.

I can't understand the point with your time duration markers - the video does not display on my browser - so I can't comment on your specific example.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ive listened to KOB enough for one lifetime so I'll go with Schoenberg. Blue In Green is the one tune from the album I'd take to my desert island.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I can't make a fair comparison, because Cannonball Adderley is on Kind of Blue, and as an alto sax player, what he does makes me drop whatever I'm doing to listen - he's part Benny Carter chordal playing and part Miles modal playing, so it's the tension between two eras. But I wouldn't kick Schoenberg out of the car.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> We all have our opinions.
> 
> Jazz is *reactionary* - that is how it works.
> 
> ...


I used the wrong word, it's not reactionary but reactive  I believe the piano accompaniment is modal at times, no?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> I used the wrong word, it's not reactionary but reactive  I believe the piano accompaniment is modal at times, no?


There is a moddal blues on KoB -All Blues. But Wynton Kelly was a much more funky/traditional pianist than Bill Evans, and I don't hear a modal quality in his playing. "Reactionary/reactive" - same thing, for the members of a jazz group, reacting is all they are doing.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> I can't make a fair comparison, because Cannonball Adderley is on Kind of Blue, and as an alto sax player, what he does makes me drop whatever I'm doing to listen - he's part Benny Carter chordal playing and part Miles modal playing, so it's the tension between two eras. But I wouldn't kick Schoenberg out of the car.


I'm not a sax player but I'm glad to see others that value Adderley's contribution at least as highly as Coltrane's. I feel like sometimes Cannonball gets overlooked because of the latter.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Both great pieces, but this is very much an apples and oranges kind of comparison. Better to compare Schoenberg's chamber music to, say, Eric Dolphy's Out to Lunch. With Dolphy, Schoenberg's influence is very much evident. I still can't say which is better, but it's interesting to see how a wide variety of musicians developed Schoenberg's original ideas over the course of the 20th century.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

This was actually tougher to decide than I originally thought it would be.

But, I went with Schoenberg by a hair.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

Can't I have both? Please? :angel:


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

There's other jazz that does for me what KoB does, but I have found Schoenberg to be by far the most expressive and successful with the methods he invented. I regularly off-load great amounts of stress and depression via cathartic sessions with his music. It has become an essential and practical tool for my mental health, as I've always been most comforted by music that sounds how I feel in the moment. Schoenberg captures negative, nervous energy so well that I can spend it listening to him, and that is invaluable to me. His music is a cherished tool that I wouldn't want to be without in my lower moments.

...Kind of Blue sounds nice.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I prefer most things over Schoenberg, he just does not arouse any interest for me, an alleged remark from him went something like this (in the future newspaper delivery boys will be whistling my music) 
Still waiting Arnie.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Miles, not only for the ''Kind'' but for his whole contribution to (Jazz) music. Music for the people is 1000 times better than music for a very specific audience and Miles is one of the greatest souls America's.


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## Skakner (Oct 8, 2020)

Easy for me!
*Miles*, by far!
Not only Schoenberg isn't one of my favorites but Miles is...Miles! A cornerstone for jazz music (although I don't like very much his electric period).

What a coincidence!
Yesterday I watched this interesting video from Rick Beato.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Skakner said:


> Easy for me!
> *Miles*, by far!
> Not only Schoenberg isn't one of my favorites but Miles is...Miles! A cornerstone for jazz music (although I don't like very much his electric period).
> 
> ...


I love Rick Beato. What a great channel and a cool guy.


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