# Conductors always know best



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It is well known how Leopold Stokowski would 'update' works as he saw fit, but apparently he wasn't the only one...

The story goes that when Walter Legge, the EMI record producer and founder of the Philharmonia Orchestra, approached Otto Klemperer about recording the Mendelssohn 3rd Symphony (Scottish), Klemperer said that he would but as he never really liked the last movement coda, he would either record it without the coda or write and record his own! Legge, who usually got exactly what he wanted, argued with Klemperer and managed to persuade him to record the work complete with Mendelssohn's coda. However, some years later after Legge and the Philharmonia and Klemperer had parted ways, Klemperer did indeed write his own coda to the 3rd and performed it. I understand that there exists a recording of it somewhere but I'm not sure that I want to hear it!

Does anyone know of any other such stories?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Of course, there's Mahler's "retouched" versions of Beethoven's symphonies. Mahler did a pretty good job of "updating" these works for a larger orchestra, but I strongly prefer the originals!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

...but did he actually rewrite parts of them or did he just tweak the orchestration?


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Becca said:


> ...but did he actually rewrite parts of them or did he just tweak the orchestration?


Many of Mahler's changes involved the orchestration, but he added a few notes as well. These added notes were mostly continuations of melodies that - at least in Mahler's opinion - broke off prematurely, due to the limited range of the instruments in the early 19th-century orchestra (particularly the horns).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> It is well known how Leopold Stokowski would 'update' works as he saw fit, but apparently he wasn't the only one...
> 
> The story goes that when Walter Legge, the EMI record producer and founder of the Philharmonia Orchestra, approached Otto Klemperer about recording the Mendelssohn 3rd Symphony (Scottish), Klemperer said that he would but as he never really liked the last movement coda, he would either record it without the coda or write and record his own! Legge, who usually got exactly what he wanted, argued with Klemperer and managed to persuade him to record the work complete with Mendelssohn's coda. However, some years later after Legge and the Philharmonia and Klemperer had parted ways, Klemperer did indeed write his own coda to the 3rd and performed it. I understand that there exists a recording of it somewhere but I'm not sure that I want to hear it!


That is really astonishing. I do, do, DO want to hear it!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Many many conductors bring their knowledge to the task of "correcting" scores -- i.e. identifying and altering probable typos, adding in notes that composers presumably left out because of instrumental limitations, etc. Actually recomposing parts of works is rarer. My first recording Mendelssohn's Third was Klemperer's, so I know it well and would be fascinated by his rewritten coda.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Of course, there's Mahler's "retouched" versions of Beethoven's symphonies. Mahler did a pretty good job of "updating" these works for a larger orchestra, but I strongly prefer the originals!


Mahler also "updated" Schumann's Symphonies, and even though Schumann has been labeled a "mediocre orchestrator", his original versions are preferred by me over Mahler's "graffiti".


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Mahler also "updated" Schumann's Symphonies, and even though Schumann has been labeled a "mediocre orchestrator", his original versions are preferred by me over Mahler's "graffiti".


Has there even been a schumann symphony recorded that wasn't altered? :lol: I actually dont think so.

I have some sympathy towards it on many cases, Schumann in example fares really poorly in a modern-sized orchestra, if one insist on a non-HiP i believe alterations are demanded. It seems only logical as instruments and orchestras change, changing the entire balance of sound, certain alterations can be made. But rewritting works, oh hell naaaw. I greatly admire klemperer but to claim superior compositional jugdement to Mendelssohn is unspeakable.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I'm aware of a few instances but I don't mind hearing them.

I think it's far worse when HIP conductors coming up with ridiculous ideas about how things supposedly were. 

Like Harnoncourt's apparent "old bowing technique" so his Brahms Symphonies would be truly authentic. Especially when you have people like Pierre Monteux who played Violin and Viola in that time period, who met Brahms and actually played his String Quartet for him in person, who was around to hear the Symphonies played in Brahms time period and who was alive to record Brahm's 2nd Symphony in the Stereo era. How someone can claim to be more authentic than someone who was actually alive in that time period baffles me...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Schumanniac said:


> Has there even been a schumann symphony recorded that wasn't altered? :lol: I actually dont think so.
> 
> I have some sympathy towards it on many cases, Schumann in example fares really poorly in a modern-sized orchestra, if one insist on a non-HiP i believe alterations are demanded. It seems only logical as instruments and orchestras change, changing the entire balance of sound, certain alterations can be made. But rewritting works, oh hell naaaw. I greatly admire klemperer but to claim superior compositional jugdement to Mendelssohn is unspeakable.


Well, that may be true. I believe George Szell tinkered with portions of the Schumann Second Symphony.

This kind of tinkering would have driven Schumann insane...especially the "Mahler knows best" kind!

Thankfully Mahler left Handel's Messiah alone!! The Mozart anachronisms were bad enough!! :lol::lol:


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

In orchestral music and equivalent factors to modern stagings of operas and plays, often at the expense of credibility and too often I fear done to feed the ego of the director.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The only conductor I am familiar with who really did know best, was Arturo Toscanini, a complete fanatic for faithfullness to a composer's score as written! God bless him!!!


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> The only conductor I am familiar with who really did know best, was Arturo Toscanini, a complete fanatic for faithfullness to a composer's score as written! God bless him!!!


Maurice Ravel would not give this post a like.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> The only conductor I am familiar with who really did know best, was Arturo Toscanini, a complete fanatic for faithfullness to a composer's score as written! God bless him!!!


Actually, Toscanini did make some changes - in Missa Solemnis, for example - he added some brass [hns] to bring out inner lines....also - in Beethoven Sym #9/II - IIRC - he adds the eighth-notes to the horn parts in the 2nd theme of scherzo [II]


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