# Winterreise vs. Pet Sounds



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Which one is a greater musical achievement:

a) Winterreise by Franz Schubert (1828)
b) Pet Sounds by Beach Boys (1966)

Please elaborate your answer.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Pet Sounds was a weak album. Winterreise is one of the great lieder cycles.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I personally prefer Sgt. Pepper, but I think Pet Sounds is more important and more authentic. Sgt. Pepper was trying a bit too hard to be artistic.

Regarding Winterreise, I've given it a couple of chances, but it still doesnt _do it_ for me. I can like an occasional Lied here and there, but as a whole I find it difficult to swallow... songs too similar too each other and too grating style of singing.
Also not that original after all. Even if it's a pinnacle of the genre, it's not revolutionary.

On the other hand Pet Sounds opened a whole knew universe of sounds... and each song is different, much more pleasing to ear, and in spite of differences they work good as a whole.

So I vote for Pet Sounds.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, I'd rather hear Winterreise than the noises made by most pets. But an elephant trumpeting vs. the scherzo of the Bruckner Fourth is another matter.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I voted for _Pet Sounds_ since it has meant much more to me than _Winterreise_. But I won't comment regarding "greater musical achievement" - all I'll ever say is which work appeals to me more than another one.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Not sure about greater musical achievement, but I'd rather listen to Pet Sounds by far. The rhythms in the Schubert are just too boring to me. Check out the rhythmic vitality in this song alone:


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Funnily enough, I was just listening to Pet Sounds right before logging onto TC and seeing this thread. Perhaps the Schubert is a greater artistic achievement, but like the OP I've never really personally connected with it. OTOH Pet Sounds is probably my favorite pop/rock album of all time, so it gets my vote.

It really is a masterpiece. Not a dud on the album. Every song is either an acknowledged classic or a hidden gem, and although it may not be a proper concept album there's something about the way the songs flow into each other so seamlessly, creating an indescribable ethereal atmosphere and flow that's like nothing else I know of. Pet Sounds can be equally appreciated and enjoyed as a collection of wonderful tunes and as a homogenous experience in itself; IMO this is what distinguishes the greatest pop/rock albums. I have a particular affinity for the last stretch of songs on side 2: Here Today, I Just Wasn't Made For These Times, Pet Sounds, and the achingly poignant finale Caroline No. And then, of course, there's God Only Knows ...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm another die-hard Pet Sounds guy, and someone with whom Die Winterreise has yet to click. Sorry for skewing your poll even further in that direction.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

When I glanced at the thread title, I thought the OP was comparing Winterreise to the sounds of animals, and I thought, "Wow, that's a bit harsh...":lol: Seriously though, kind of shocking how many people have chosen the second option so far.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> When I glanced at the thread title, I thought the OP was comparing Winterreise to the sounds of animals, and I thought, "Wow, that's a bit harsh...":lol: Seriously though, kind of shocking how many people have chosen the second option so far.


Yeah, it's a small sample size, but I'm (pleasantly) surprised by the results so far.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> When I glanced at the thread title, I thought the OP was comparing Winterreise to the sounds of animals, and I thought, "Wow, that's a bit harsh...":lol: Seriously though, kind of shocking how many people have chosen the second option so far.


Pet Sounds is a phenomenal album; I'm not surprised to learn that classical fans know and love it. It was the starting point of so-called baroque pop in the '60s. Worth a listen or 50.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Pet Sounds is perhaps the greatest pop album of all time and, as with some of the others on this thread, it connects to me on a deeply personal level. However, _Winterreise_ is basically equal in personal importance for me. I love the piece so much that I once did a photography project based on Müller's poems. The photos are mediocre, but Schubert's music is isn't. It is indeed among his finest masterpieces.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

The Beach Boys album evokes in me the happy memories of my first encounters with the post-war American culture, even if it is bittersweet about it.

Schubert's album on the other hand makes me think of things hopelessly bygone, of loneliness, and of cold felt to the bone.

The arrangements in the former are certainly more varied and instrumentally richer, but the latter leaves more of an impression on me after the listening is done. 

Through my specific cultural lenses, I voted Schubert.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> When I glanced at the thread title, I thought the OP was comparing Winterreise to the sounds of animals, and I thought, "Wow, that's a bit harsh...":lol: Seriously though, kind of shocking how many people have chosen the second option so far.


It has greatly surprised me. I was in my first year of college when Pet Sounds was released. In addition to not personally connecting with it, I didn't know a soul on campus who thought it was a big deal. Well, maybe my "bubble" was too small.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> It has greatly surprised me. I was in my first year of college when Pet Sounds was released. In addition to not personally connecting with it, I didn't know a soul on campus who thought it was a big deal. Well, maybe my "bubble" was too small.


It seems to be one of those records whose impact wasn't really felt until much later on, kind of like The Velvet Underground and Nico. But what do I know, I was born almost 30 years after Pet Sounds came out.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

What a joke, the Beach Boys??? Really? 
I will not expand on that…


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> When I glanced at the thread title, I thought the OP was comparing Winterreise to the sounds of animals, and I thought, "Wow, that's a bit harsh...":lol: Seriously though, kind of shocking how many people have chosen the second option so far.


I thought the exact same thing. I even voted thinking the second option was animal noises; I was even more shocked to see them out ahead!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Lol Pet Sounds. I think there's much better pop music than that...

Tier 1 Pop




https://w1.musify.club/en/track/jimi-hendrix-castles-made-of-sand-68856









Tier 2 Pop


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> Lol Pet Sounds. I think there's much better pop music than that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are all lovely songs and albums. None of them comes close to Pet Sounds in my book.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

What on earth.........What a joke


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> These are all lovely songs and albums. None of them comes close to Pet Sounds in my book.


Hahahaha, ok. I respect your opinion.


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

I'm listening to Winterreise for the first time right now and thoroughly enjoying it, but I can't imagine trying to compare it with Pet Sounds. Anyway I think the Smile Sessions release from 2011, even as an unfinished work, is much more enjoyable and interesting than Pet Sounds...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> When I glanced at the thread title, I thought the OP was comparing Winterreise to the sounds of animals, and I thought, "Wow, that's a bit harsh...":lol: Seriously though, kind of shocking how many people have chosen the second option so far.


I thought Pet Sounds was some obscure piece of 20th century avant-garde music, composed of animal noises.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> Hahahaha, ok. I respect your opinion.


And I yours!

(That was easy.)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I like pop/rock as a genre a lot, but you're picking an album I don't care for against one of my favourite pieces of classical music.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Winterreise vs Pet Sounds?*

I can't provide any definitive answer, I'm sure, but as a long time fan of Schubert's _Winterreise_ (of which I have dozens of versions in my current record & disc collection) and one who has played the disc in the barn on the old CD boombox, I can assure you that both Virgil and Ovid often neighed in hearty approval, especially at "Rast" and especially when it was sung by Hans Hotter, accompanied by pianist Gerald Moore.

Old Ben, the hound, seemed to prefer "Im Dorfe" and would join in enthusiastically with the barking. He tended to favor the vocals of Brigitte Fassbaender. But then the ol' dog always had a tender spot for the ladies.

The local crows would sure caw up a storm at track 15. Can't be sure if they approved of the music or not. But they didn't seem to indicate a preference for vocalists, either. Just a lot of cawing.

Pet sounds. Yep. _Winterreise_ sure spurs 'em.

As well it should, in a work where Vogelgeschreidie, Hähne krähten, schrieen die Raben, es bellen die Hunde, und die Hunde knurren, and irre Hunde heulen and sangen die Lerch' und Nachtigall im Streit.

Help me Rhonda! Sometimes the animal clatter gets so hectic I just want to chill out to some Beach Boys music.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Please must we have these pointless comparisons?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> And I yours!
> 
> (That was easy.)


I just respond that way in this particular case, as, I'm sure there's a very legitimate reason you like this album more, but that reason goes completely over my head.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

DavidA said:


> Please must we have these pointless comparisons?


Of course, in relation to another thread eek, a comparison between Winterreise and Pet Sounds may be more meaningful than one between Trevor Wishart or Rebecca Saunders and any piece from 19th century classical music. At least Pet Sounds and Winterreise share a language to some extent. They both have tunes for one thing.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

probably the most silly poll I have read at this site so far


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> I just respond that way in this particular case, as, I'm sure there's a very legitimate reason you like this album more, but that reason goes completely over my head.


For starters, maybe consider that you're comparing individual singles against a full album.


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## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Not into the early 19th century lied genre at all and Pet Sounds is an amazing album, so pet sounds all the way. I think that anything that schubert (or anyone prior to brahms or schumann) wrote in the lied genre (i love his chamber, solo piano works and his symphonies) was far surpassed not only by the two composers i mentioned but also by early 20th century composers like irving berlin, cole porter or jazz standards, and if we keep it strictly to classical then give me poulenc songs instead of schubert's! I do think however that your poll is rather interesting as one could find a few interesting historical and artistic paralellisms between these two works.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I understand that _Winterreise_ is one of the most important lied cycles ever composed and a culmination in Schubert's career as a songwriter, and since the poll asks for the "greatest" I voted for it. But I enjoy much more to listen to _Pet Sounds_ as the duo piano/voice is not really my cup of tea.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I had never heard Pet Sounds until last night but had heard it praised to high heaven by various and sundry. I was not impressed. Sounds somewhere between easy listening and Muzak to me. Comparing it to Schubert?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> I had never heard Pet Sounds until last night but had heard it praised to high heaven by various and sundry. I was not impressed. Sounds somewhere between easy listening and Muzak to me.


yes, but that's the surface. It's in many ways music made by a simple young man for simple young people, light pop songs with a bit of melancholy about girls and surf and fun. But the songwriting is much more sophisticated that what it seems.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

*What is the best pop album or pop work and what Classical work would you equal it to?*

What is the best pop album or pop work, and what Classical work would you compare it with equally?


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

All this worry about 'greatness' and 'but its SCHUBERT!!'. 

WHO CARES?!

Schubert wrote songs; Beach Boys wrote songs. The latter are more enjoyable to listen to, for me and even some people here WHO STILL VOTED FOR SCHUBERT. Talk about defferential to the point of self-denial!

Winterreise: The cringey squawking and bellowing designed for projection in opera houses used in SONGS (why couldn't people sing normally in that period, why was singing always 'put on' in style?)? The exaggerated emo tone of constant, pathetic, dispair delivered RIGHT IN YOUR FACE by aformentioned bellowing? The sameness of each song in the work? The lack of hooks? The comparative lack of rythmic drive? The comparative lack of textural and timberal variety?! Give me Pet Sounds (although I prefer the Beatles)!


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> What is the best pop album or pop work, and what Classical work would you compare it with equally?


I cannot find a fitting classical comparison to my favourite pop songs. I usually listen to these genres with different mindsets and focus.

Let's take one example. My "ideal" pop song I think is this:

Johnny Tillotson - "We can make it" (1998)




A quaint, uplifting song, with a first-rate melody and a lush arrangement of instruments and voices. Another example would be "Dancing Queen", even though that one is bittersweet.

Worth notice is the heartwarming "heroic" factor; Tillotson was a star in the 1960s, and came back with his youthful voice virtually intact 30 years later, to sing in a song specifically tailored for him, superior in quality to virtually all those he sung in his heyday. A very rare type of a blast from the past.

I have no idea what in the classical field to compare it too. I would rather leave them separate.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> Tier 1 Pop
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. I would say the above songs are _minute-for-minute_ as good as the best Classical music (so that's not very much) ie. 3 minutes of sheer quality is not that much quality.

A good pop song sounds incredibly expressive and catchy but it doesn't last very long.

That's kind of like how Schubert is though (to a degree.)


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

It is like comparing gourmet food (Winterreise) to fast food (Pet Sounds).


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> Interesting. I would say the above songs are minute-for-minute as good as the best Classical music, ie. as good as just 3-4 minutes of a random part in a Beethoven symphony. However, loop the above songs so they're 10 minutes and they lose their value; they're great only for that 3-4 minutes.
> 
> The best pop sounds incredibly expressive and catchy, but it doesn't last very long.


While the Beethoven example is too much of a hyperbole to me, I would say that a great pop song certainly can punch way above its weight for several minutes of an initial impression.

As far as "matching the classics" is concerned, I would pick this:






It's divine to me.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Yes, I can easily forget pop, like those 4 songs above. There's orchestral music that goes way beyond the emotional threshold of quality of any 3 minutes of Classical imo, but it only lasts for that quick glimpse, ie. like a fading 30 seconds here at 1:41 or 8:23






In fact someone on another forum made the revolutionary comment that this piece of music has nothing to do with Classical. Its impressionism. I appreciate these unique perspectives on genres. The piece does leave a strong 'impression.'


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't even know what is on the album Pet Sounds and never heard of it until it was brought up on TC. But I never was a Beach Boys fan anyway, except for their hot rod songs. Hot rod songs are fun. So, I voted for Winterreise, especially since I heard it live a couple years ago with Joyce DiDonato!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> While the Beethoven example is too much of a hyperbole to me


It's not much of a hyperbole imo, but in a nutshell my point. Once you realize 3 minutes of ie. 'aesthetic perfection' amounts to nothing. The Borodin segments noted are far beyond Beethoven beauty imo, but alas, 1 minute isn't amounting to much in the end. The brilliance of Beethoven, or esp. Mozart and Wagner, is in all the surrounding interconnections and developments, not what I hear at present.

It's kind of like why people love to go watch film sequels... there's more inherent quality there, simply having the same characters and memories back, it brings all this backstory and context. In fact gives perfect excuse for creators to be lazy.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> It's not much of a hyperbole imo. Once you realize 3 minutes of ie. 'aesthetic perfection' amounts to nothing. The Borodin segments noted are far beyond Beethoven beauty imo, but alas, 1 minute isn't amounting to much in the end. The brilliance of Beethoven, or esp. Mozart and Wagner, is in all the surrounding interconnections and developments, not what I hear at present.
> 
> It's kind of like why people love to go watch film sequels... there's more inherent quality there, simply having the same characters and memories back, it brings all this backstory and context. In fact gives perfect excuse for creators to be lazy.


I once read a statement by a mathematician/statistician who had journeyed into music, that the greatest (human) music pieces, whatever they might be, would probably not be too long. I think there is a wisdom to it, because whatever "level" of craft we assume, the longer it would be demanded, the more opportunities there would be for the fallible human to make some suboptimal choices. Even the greats had their relative peaks that they were infrequently able to reclaim.

On the other hand, music is a type of stimulation, and as such benefits greatly from cumulative effects. Of course if the timespan is too long, some effects will weaken their grip on the psyche, if not be completely forgotten or replaced by newer ones because of the finite resources the mind has.

My question for you is: what do you wager is the optimum length for music pieces?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

You know I'm not sure, but what I do know is these 'big hits' of Classical you often find regurgitated, for example Spotify chart's 5 minute popularized pieces of Beethoven, Brahms, Debussy, are nonsense. Major names in Classical didn't know how to write great short pieces; they were famous for writing long works and then the mainstream confused them and popularized some of their short segments. These composers have nothing to do with true quality short-hand music, it's just pop culture that recycles these dumb pieces.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> You know I'm not sure, but what I do know is these 'big hits' of Classical you often find regurgitated, for example Spotify chart's 5 minute popularized pieces of Beethoven, Brahms, Debussy, are nonsense. *Major names in Classical didn't know how to write great short pieces*; they were famous for writing long works and then the mainstream confused them and popularized some of their short segments. These composers have nothing to do with true quality short-hand music, it's just pop culture that recycles these dumb pieces.


In the case of the composers you mentioned, I agree. The same with Haydn, Wagner, and Berlioz, for example. But how about Mozart, Schubert, Chopin, Tchaikovsky...? They wrote some excellent short pieces, and these were not isolated cases.

And even Beethoven's _Allegro con brio_ from the 5th symphony lasts ca. 6-7 minutes, and can be cut below 6 if a repetition is omitted. It's the greatest 6 minutes ever written imho, perfectly fine as a standalone.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> I once read a statement by a mathematician/statistician who had journeyed into music, that the greatest (human) music pieces, whatever they might be, would probably not be too long. I think there is a wisdom to it, because whatever "level" of craft we assume, the longer it would be demanded, the more opportunities there would be for the fallible human to make some suboptimal choices. Even the greats had their relative peaks that they were infrequently able to reclaim.
> 
> On the other hand, music is a type of stimulation, and as such benefits greatly from cumulative effects. Of course if the timespan is too long, some effects will weaken their grip on the psyche, if not be completely forgotten or replaced by newer ones because of the finite resources the mind has.
> 
> My question for you is: what do you wager is the optimum length for music pieces?


Well if you have the attention spell of a gnat the majority of pop music would suit but if you can stay focused for more than 5 minutes then welcome to serious music.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Dan Ante said:


> Well if you have the attention spell of a gnat the majority of pop music would suit but if you can stay focused for more than 5 minutes then welcome to serious music.


I assume English is not your first language, because otherwise you would have used "one", not "you". "You" sounds as if you meant me personally, which makes no sense in the context. Please confirm.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> What is the best pop album or pop work, and what Classical work would you compare it with equally?


Pet Sounds, and Winterreise


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> In the case of the composers you mentioned, I agree. The same with Haydn, Wagner, and Berlioz, for example. But how about Mozart, Schubert, Chopin, Tchaikovsky...? They wrote some excellent short pieces, and these were not isolated cases.
> 
> And even Beethoven's _Allegro con brio_ from the 5th symphony lasts ca. 6-7 minutes, and can be cut below 6 if a repetition is omitted. It's the greatest 6 minutes ever written imho, perfectly fine as a standalone.


If you want to go even shorter however, I'd say Beethoven has lovelier moments in the 6th. I'm not very partial to his 5th... But I'm thinking more contemporary composers for some of the greatest short segments. John Williams, a lot of the Russians, Prokofiev, Mahler, Uematsu. Peter and the Wolf's theme still really gets to me.

Bach and Chopin of course, yes. To me this was Chopin's best piece:


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Haydn70 said:


> It is like comparing gourmet food (Winterreise) to fast food (Pet Sounds).


Do tell us, what is 'gourmet' about Winterreise and cheap/nasty about Pet Sounds, in terms of musical theory as opposed to subjective sentiments?


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Dan Ante said:


> Well if you have the attention spell of a gnat the majority of pop music would suit but if you can stay focused for more than 5 minutes then welcome to serious music.


There are plenty of pieces of music, songs and otherwise, under 5 minutes which are 'serious music', whatever _that_ means.

If you define 'serious music' as music over 5 minutes, then your statement has no substantive content. If you define 'serious music' as music you like, then than is even more absurd. If you define 'serious music' as music involving development, then you rule out much of Winteressie.

How are you defining 'serious music'?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Ethereality said:


> Chopin of course, yes. To me this was his best piece:


My dad likes Chopin's songs better than Winterreise, btw:


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

Ethereality said:


> If you want to go even shorter however, Beethoven has some lovely moments in the 6th. I'm not very partial to his 5th... But I'm thinking more contemporary composers for some of the greatest short segments. John Williams, a lot of the Russians, Prokofiev, Mahler, Uematsu. Peter and the Wolf's theme still really gets to me.
> 
> Chopin of course, yes. To me this was his best piece:


Mahler? What great short pieces did he write?

Interesting pick with Chopin. I would probably go with:




or:





I didn't mention Williams, because nobody can touch his legion of compositions below 5 minutes anyway. He might have over two thousand of them, with some tri-digit number worth calling excellent, and top 50 requiring probably half of the classical pantheon in alliance to bring it down.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

For Mahler my favorite was Song of the Wayfarer which he later formed into Symphony 1. Ie. I think it could be combined with 7:00 and made into a short pastoral piece.



Ethereality said:


> *7:00-7:33*
> 
> *10:20-13:00*


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

But then again, Bruce Broughton did perhaps an even better job with 'short >5 min pastoral pieces.' Short-form composing seems to be less about detail and more about structure, and some of these pieces have incredible meat and guts for just being a few minutes:



Ethereality said:


>


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> I didn't mention Williams, because nobody can touch his legion of compositions below 5 minutes anyway. He might have over two thousand of them, with some tri-digit number worth calling excellent, and top 50 requiring probably half of the classical pantheon in alliance to bring it down.


Lmao. This might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on TC. And that is saying something.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I know this is a weird subject essentially comparing composers based on how well their form holds together within x amount of time, and what timeframe best represents their skillset. I think it's a fascinating subject since there are no limits on how long a Classical work should be; Bach wrote many 2 minute works. For the record, I myself didn't imply the above composers like Williams were good 5-minute guys. I meant much lower than 5. Bach is perhaps 8 minutes, Chopin is 3 minutes, whereas Peter and the Wolf is literally a 1 minute theme. _Williams_ writes many popular suites at around 5 minutes but his real skill and compositional fabric seems to culminate at around... 40 seconds. He's a film composer. Try to write a 40 second segment better than this for ie. exactly the atmospheric change of mood and fancifulness it desires to suggest. He's one of the best for evoking within this very short duration, atmosphere, leitmotif, etc:

*3:12-3:42*






Another one, this time 50 second form *1:40-2:30*






Instead I think James Horner is a better _2 minute guy _ for film. Williams attempts these longer emotional scenes too but I think this is much more aggregate and effective:

*0:37-2:47*





Anyway LOL :lol: If were talking about good music designed to be very short, film and soundtrack music (because it has a similar palette to orchestra and leitmotif) is pretty great.

For longer music, Classical is the most advanced.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Allerius said:


> I understand that _Winterreise_ is one of the most important lied cycles ever composed and a culmination in Schubert's career as a songwriter, and since the poll asks for the "greatest" I voted for it. But I enjoy much more to listen to _Pet Sounds_ as the duo piano/voice is not really my cup of tea.





RogerWaters said:


> Schubert wrote songs; Beach Boys wrote songs. The latter are more enjoyable to listen to, for me and even some people here WHO STILL VOTED FOR SCHUBERT. Talk about defferential to the point of self-denial!


Perhaps you have a point, but IMO it's possible for one to acknowledge the merits of a musical piece without liking it. I respect Bob Dylan as a very important artist even if his music doesn't connect with me. In the other hand, I enjoy a local band in my town even knowing that it's music is very far from being as influential, original and groundbreaking as Dylan's.

_Winterreise_ is perhaps the most important lied cycle of the first half of the 19th century, while _Pet Sounds_, even being a great album, arguably was equalled (if not surpassed) in terms of historical significance in the very same year it was released (by the Beatles' _Revolver_ and, in the following year, by _Sgt. Peppers_). In this sense, and considering this criterion, for me it's "greater" for the purposes of this poll, even if non-orchestral lieder are my least enjoyed genre of classical music, and taking into consideration that I really like the Beach Boys' album.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Ethereality said:


> Major names in Classical didn't know how to write great short pieces;


go tell that to Webern.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

norman bates said:


> go tell that to Webern.


 I just cited a list of composers who don't fit this description, ie. I didn't write 'all Major composers': They're your typical pop hits for people who want to get into Classical, and just hearing them is like nails on the chalkboard because that's not how these composers wrote nor is much of it great music. It just became popular to regurgitate some of their weaker movements out of context.

If I wanted to celebrate 3 minute wonders, I'd look to real Classical tunesmiths and good soundtrack music and pop music. In fact, genre misidentification is why some here feel that Mozart and Beethoven have become overrated. They feel its music misunderstood by a majority of critics who purport that a balance between complexity and catchiness of the Classical era is music at its essence, when in fact its pretentious and misses the point, while others think that Classical era music strikes the essential and necessary perfect fit into both genres. The 'supreme form.'


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Fabulin said:


> I assume English is not your first language, because otherwise you would have used "one", not "you". "You" sounds as if you meant me personally, which makes no sense in the context. Please confirm.


All these grammar experts that have suddenly appeared must have succumbed to the d/l for the free grammar check that is popping up all over the place I am sorry to contradict your assumption but English is my 1st language I used the plural YOU as did you (singular) in your question. I hope you can understand.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Allerius said:


> _Winterreise_ is perhaps the most important lied cycle of the first half of the 19th century


Sounds like music as museum fixture to me...

I want someone to slap me if I start talking about 'most important' music instead of 'music that makes my spirit rise'


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Lmao. This might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on TC. And that is saying something.


Look at your own nickname. Up is down, huh?


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

I voted Pet Sounds. Although I don't listen to much rock/pop etc. anymore, Brian Wilson's peak (before his LSD-fueled implosion) was monumental and Pet Sounds was part of that. 
I love Shubert too - but prefer other works to Winterreise.
So Shubert > Brian Wilson but Pet Sounds > Winterreise.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Fabulin said:


> Look at your own nickname. Up is down, huh?


I'm sorry if I came off as brash. I honestly respect your unabashed admiration of Williams, a serious composer who often gets (imo unjustly) looked down upon by people on this site.

But even just talking about <5 minute pieces, come on. Try to name anything by Williams comparable with any of the following:































(And btw I don't see anything ridiculous about my username, though I can see how stating the obvious night come off that way)


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## julide (Jul 24, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> What is the best pop album or pop work, and what Classical work would you compare it with equally?


not that i would compare it to any classical work but this pop album is the only album that comes to mind when i think of classically influenced pop.... and it seems to blend western classical with turkish maqams in a disco track.... and it doesn't sound gimmicky


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I'm sorry if I came off as brash. I honestly respect your unabashed admiration of Williams, a serious composer who often gets (imo unjustly) looked down upon by people on this site.
> 
> But even just talking about <5 minute pieces, come on. Try to name anything by Williams comparable with any of the following:
> 
> ...


Found anything yet?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

.adjuiwadawdiabiawb


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## ManuelMozart95 (Sep 29, 2018)

The results don't surprise me since Opera, Oratorios, Art songs and all vocal Classical music in general is vastly underappreciated in this forum and in most forums of Classical music (The Classical Music sub in Reddit is even worse in this concern).
Look how low most Opera composers rate whenever there's a list of greatest composers in this forum. 
Whenever Opera is discussed it is full of people saying it would be better without all the singing.

The thing is most people here don't understand Classical singing and therefore it's not surprising that Winterreise is underappreciated.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I always liked Die Schone Mullerin and stuff like Erlkonig much, much more than Winterreise. I find much of Winterreise annoying to listen to (and I'm a Ferneyhough fan! ).


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I still like the idea of cutting up pieces into a timestamp and saying this is the ideal duration of form for a piece. There are amazing compositions within compositions, and only occassionally does it make sense to quote the whole composers' work, in a subject about short compositions it makes sense to include a lot of these specific moments first, before the above full pieces. I mentioned the Polovtsian Dances, Song of the Wayfarer from Mahler 1, the middle theme in Young Prince and Princess from Scheherazade, Peter and the Wolf, Russian Dance from Petrushka, that heavy moment from Jeux de Vagues, I can go on. I think the late romantic and contemporary themes kick the aboves' *** at around 3 minutes, the composers make an introductory statement and build-up, into a brilliant orchestrative impression. They're masters of the 3-minute form, but their actual works are longer. Even soundtrack music like that Titanic moment on the last page can compete, it's levels above pop music.

Once we get over 5 minutes, we're talking about either Classical movement structure or meta-structure, like I guess Pet Sounds.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

ManuelMozart95 said:


> The results don't surprise me since Opera, Oratorios, Art songs and all vocal Classical music in general is vastly underappreciated in this forum and in most forums of Classical music (The Classical Music sub in Reddit is even worse in this concern).
> Look how low most Opera composers rate whenever there's a list of greatest composers in this forum.
> Whenever Opera is discussed it is full of people saying it would be better without all the singing.
> 
> The thing is most people here don't *understand *Classical singing and therefore it's not surprising that Winterreise is *underappreciated*.


'Underappreciated', according to what benchmark? Your own tastes?

I'm also not sure good music needs to be intellectualised to be liked - a bach fugue gets richer with understanding, but if it don't sound good to the ear at the outset it's no use polishing a turd, so to speak.


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## ManuelMozart95 (Sep 29, 2018)

RogerWaters said:


> 'Underappreciated', according to what benchmark? Your own tastes?
> 
> I'm also not sure good music needs to be intellectualised to be liked - a bach fugue gets richer with understanding, but if it don't sound good to the ear at the outset it's no use polishing a turd, so to speak.


I simply stated that in my opinion a lot of people in this forum don't appreciate vocal Classical music and therefore it isn't a surprise they would prefer Pet Sounds over Winterreise.
In fact I didn't state my opinion on which one is better, they're both great works but I think Winterreise has the disadvantage that most people are not used to Classical singing whereas Pet Sounds is much more accesible.

I didn't say music needs to be intellectualised in order to be liked, but it is hard to argue that the more knowledge and experience you have with a certain genre of music the more you appreciate its nuances.
For example I don't listen to Hip Hop and if I listened to a song I wouldn't be able to tell to which subgenre it belongs but this would be obvious for someone who is knowledgeable in the genre.

The same goes for Classical singing, if you're not used to listening to it then it would be easy to miss the nuances that make a work like Winterreise great.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just to say it is unfathomable to me that this has generated five pages of discussion.


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## Fabulin (Jun 10, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Just to say it is unfathomable to me that this has generated five pages of discussion.


As opposed to a hundred in a thread about Furtwängler?


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

RogerWaters said:


> '
> 
> I'm also not sure good music needs to be intellectualised to be liked - a bach fugue gets richer with understanding, but if it don't sound good to the ear at the outset it's no use polishing a turd, so to speak.


I completely agree with you but one thing that has puzzled me for ages and that you see on music forums quite a bit is that you enjoy music more if you understand it??? 
I am not sure what understand means is it (a technical understanding of the composition} or something else :tiphat:


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Dan Ante said:


> I completely agree with you but one thing that has puzzled me for ages and that you see on music forums quite a bit is that you enjoy music more if you understand it???
> I am not sure what understand means is it (a technical understanding of the composition} or something else :tiphat:


Make sense what the composer is 'saying'? (if, indeed, a composer is actually saying anything). This is how I understand the term, anyway - and how I use it; and it is totally subjective.


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## Spy Car (Nov 15, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> What is the best pop album or pop work, and what Classical work would you compare it with equally?


Blonde on Blonde vs Parsifal.

Bruckner 8 vs Electric Ladyland

Bill (who loves both Pet Sounds and Winterreise)


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Make sense what the composer is 'saying'? (if, indeed, a composer is actually saying anything). This is how I understand the term, anyway - and how I use it; and it is totally subjective.


I am reminded of something I read years ago concerning this very subject, I can't remember where, but it concerned Grieg's Peer Gynt and Morning Mood.
The majority of people when asked said it depicted an early morning scene in a jungle whereas it is poor old Peer stranded in the Moroccan desert. Obviously the people concerned in this did not know the the actual story line but were familiar with the music. So it is subjective and wrong, I will admit that when I first heard this music I fell in the camp of jungle scene.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Dan Ante said:


> I am reminded of something I read years ago concerning this very subject, I can't remember where, but it concerned Grieg's Peer Gynt and Morning Mood.
> The majority of people when asked said it depicted an early morning scene in a jungle whereas it is poor old Peer stranded in the Moroccan desert. Obviously the people concerned in this did not know the the actual story line but were familiar with the music. So it is subjective and wrong, I will admit that when I first heard this music I fell in the camp of jungle scene.


You make a good point - that anything too specific is, generally speaking, beyond (instrumental) music's expressive capabilities. I can think of exceptions, but then I again, that would probably just be my opinion...and I guess such matters would be culturally dependent.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Never understood the magic of "Pet Sounds" (although I have a copy in my library). A fairer comparison for me would be The Band's eponymous second album. A collection of twelve songs that form a "concept album" or in other words, a song cycle. For me the songs range from solid to outstanding. And I've listened to it a helluva lot more often than to "Winterreise."

Honorable mention to Randy Newman's "Good Old Boys."


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

jegreenwood said:


> Never understood the magic of "Pet Sounds" (although I have a copy in my library). A fairer comparison for me would be The Band's eponymous second album. A collection of twelve songs that form a "concept album" or in other words, a song cycle. For me the songs range from solid to outstanding. And I've listened to it a helluva lot more often than to "Winterreise."
> 
> Honorable mention to Randy Newman's "Good Old Boys."


Count me in as someone who would put the Band's brown album above Winterreise. Great record.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I love The Band, but I'll still gladly take _Winterreise_. Schubert über alles.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I really like this song and video. It's up there with some of Schubert's, ie. has a lot of depth, and nice vocals, I can relate.






Edit: Most of these genre songs I don't think are great, ie. don't click: 



. I just think the above one is pretty good.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have never heard "Pet sounds" (having been born several years later and never a real interest in popular music) but I knew that it was a somewhat famous album and not the sounds of animals. But the fact that quite a few people thought the poll referred to animal sounds seems to be a good indication that the album is mostly of historical interest only 55 years later. So in this respect it does not have much over Winterreise 194 years later.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Kreisler jr said:


> I have never heard "Pet sounds" (having been born several years later and never a real interest in popular music) but I knew that it was a somewhat famous album and not the sounds of animals. But the fact that quite a few people thought the poll referred to animal sounds seems to be a good indication that the album is mostly of historical interest only 55 years later. So in this respect it does not have much over Winterreise 194 years later.


To be fair though, this holds for a community primarily interested in classical music. If you ask the same question on a classic rock forum, Schubert might just ring a bell, but Winterreise definitely not, whereas everyone there would have heard of (and most likely heard) Pet Sounds.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I am not so sure. I think many over 50 underestimate how far away even famous 60s music is from the minds of many youngsters under 30 or so who like more recent or different branches of popular music.

But in any case one should expect a large difference between a famous work from 1827 in a niche genre of classical music like lieder and a famous album from popular music. If one of the five or so most famous 1960s pop albums is to be treated as niche as romantic lieder, I think my point has been made. Then it has passed into "historical significance" instead of immediate relevance or just being part of a certain cultural background, for better or worse.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

I plead ignorance of both! Never knowingly listened to "Pet Sounds", although it is possible I may have come across the songs over the years. Maybe I should take a listen, the album seems to have been released the year I was born! I have never been a great fan of classical songs or lied. I should also take a listen to the Schubert. It is possible I also have come across it over the years.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Art Rock said:


> To be fair though, this holds for a community primarily interested in classical music. If you ask the same question on a classic rock forum, Schubert might just ring a bell, but Winterreise definitely not, whereas everyone there would have heard of (and most likely heard) Pet Sounds.


A quick search in the Steve Hoffman forum shows 300 threads with _Pet Sounds_ in the title. For the record, there were 314 posts with the word _Winterreise_. No threads.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

In German-speaking countries "Der Lindenbaum" (the melody of the first stanza, usually with a choral setting by Silcher, I believe) had become almost a folksong and was widely known as late as few decades ago (maybe still is). When I was a kid in the 1980s, singers like Anneliese Rothenberger and Hermann Prey would appear in German TV saturday night quiz/game shows and recall Prey singing the first song "Gute Nacht" of Winterreise in such a show about 30.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

I refuse to dignify this discussion by casting my vote. I have listened to Pet Sounds - although that was several years ago, and I haven't listened to it since. It is regarded as one of the greatest rock albums of all time and I have no beef with that. No doubt, it succeeds in what it was trying to accomplish.

Winterreise is a song cycle with which I feel a profound connection. Every song is a masterpiece, but together, they add up to a whole greater than the sum of its parts. As a listener, I reach the end of the piece with a deep sense of sorrow, solace, and catharsis.

Which is greater, Pet Sounds or Winterreise?

They both succeeded in their different ways. Apples and oranges.


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