# Why do you think Beethoven's 8th is less popular?



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Here are some things I've heard about it:

"Too lighthearted, not as 'Beethovenian'."
"Not as innovative, filled with musical jokes."
"There's no dedication to it and it's less thematic."
"It's not heroic and grandiose like Beethoven ought to be."

What Beethoven think of it? Well, Czerny asked him why it was less popular and he replied that it was "because the Eight is so much better."

I think one of the big divides between the typical listener of Beethoven and the composer himself is that Beethoven was a Classicist at heart and Beethoven listeners enjoy Beethoven as a Romantic. People listen to his 7th and 9th with relish because of his heroic dedication and themes, and his fairly unprecedented ensembles, forms, and strange cadences (not to mention his grandiose monochord melodies). What did Beethoven want the most and complain about in reference to his works? From what I've read, I would say that for all of his passion he also wanted more and better refrain sections, a sense of maturity and completeness, and form that impressed him in that the sections were definite at the start and different in content. It makes sense to me from that point of reference that he found his moonlight sonata not very substantial.

We may really enjoy his impassioned outbursts in the 9th (I don't imagine his audience expected them even of him), and his wild, playful "new world" section in the last movement, and he probably did as well because that theme was brilliant, but I would say that Beethoven really enjoyed things like poetic major to minor shifts, such as was displayed at the beginning of the second movement (in the 8th) where the basses come in with a minor melodic statement just as soon as the first violins have finished. It's that kind of transition, in which you listen to it and can probably expect the tonal shift but it isn't definite until the end of the statement, that I think Beethoven found tactful and I find poetic just like I do with Schubert.

Is it less thematic? Well, I see definite room for listening to it with a sense of metanarration, and I would also say that that idea (that it hasn't much of a theme) has both to do with lack of a dedication and the lack of context we have for the work. It was written over a four month period, and for all we know it seems to have little to do with his current dispute with Johann (his brother), because it seems "a bit" more cheerful than that situation. :lol: Really, though, people assume a negative, which as you probably know is illogical, because it's hard to speculate theme for the work.

Is it "too lighthearted"? Simply because we are humored by a good deal of the cadences, does not mean the work isn't mature. I'm utterly convinced by the first movement and see development and restatement all across it. The scherzo movement is short but his second time working through the theme is charming, and I don't think there's anything cheap about the humor at the end. The minuetto doesn't overwork it's themes, and the play between the horns and the flute and fagotti is very charming. The final movement I don't think is all that "lighthearted", and it's got a pulse to rival other famous movements from his symphonies; I think that movement packs a serious punch, honestly.

This symphony happens to be my favorite (it's not "out there", but it's well written and a real pleasure to listen to), so I'd like to see what you guys think of it. Maybe you think what I've said is whack, so let me know  I do wish I could do two polls in one thread here, for both listening pleasure and how substantial it is.

In the poll, when I say substantial, I mean for historic development, and not in the sense of writing quality, because I am already convinced for myself that it's the most well written. I don't imagine many will pick the first option, but I'd like to see where it stacks amongst the other three options.


----------



## thetrout (Jan 28, 2012)

Good post, It has been awhile since I have listened to it but I might put it on tonight. Some of your sentiments you could apply to Schurbert 1, 2, 5 and I would agree with you; in general we are heirs to the Romantic tradition rather than the Classical - why Mozart's final three appeal so much, why Schubert's 8 and 9 appeal etc.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Had a conversation about how good it is here on http://www.talkclassical.com/1005-current-listening-809.html#post229517 thread a while back.

It is easy listening compared to eg. his 5th symphony, but so what? Nothing wrong with that in my book.

Other thing is that this is the time the metronome was invented, so in the minuet he kind of toys with that, eg. "look at this new-fangled toy I've got and the tricks I can do with it" kind of stuff.

I think it's a great symphony for many reasons, & btw his less overly popular symphonies are great and not a walk in the park. His 4th symphony comes across to me as to be quite complex - just a "gut" feeling - less memorable tunes in that (for me), than all the others after & including the _Eroica._


----------



## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

It's really short.


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I'm not exactly sure myself but I do find it the least attractive of the bunch. Have to think.


----------



## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

I've heard it live twice already this year. Can't say that about any other work.



> ...the play between the horns and the flute and fagotti is very charming.


Agreed.


----------



## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, when you have written 9 of the most majestic symphonies in music history, it's only normal that some will be liked better than others and some will be (unjustly) ignored. 

The 8th has always been my favorite of the even-numbered Beethoven symphonies. No question, I fall for the odd-number cliche: my favorites are the 9, 7, 5 and 3. Then I find the 8th quite full of energy and innovative, it's not even close to easy listening (no matter how hard Chailly tries in his recent cycle). All symphonies in Beethoven's canon have a reason to exist. I find it quite normal that a more relaxed, light, "approachable" symphony would lie between the hyperactive 7th and the cataclysmic 9th. It's fantastic music anyway. 

In the end people probably love it less than the other ones because those other ones happen to be THE symphonies by whose standard all other symphonic works are measured. If I was a symphony, I would certainly prefer to shine alone that to be born in a family where the Eroica or the 9th share my space...


----------



## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

I can't put it better than Lenny:


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

The 8th sits nicely between the 7th and the 9th by offering strong contrast in so many ways: overall mood, sound, length etc. etc. He wasn't all just about one or two particular style. Folks might have been expecting another #3 or #5 or another #7. You could go to Bruckner for that. If you consider the sheer range of moods presented from symphonies #3 onwards to #9, each one offered such strong contrast in their respective place.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

brianwalker said:


> It's really short.


Go to Mahler or Bruckner.


----------



## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

Maybe just not many people like (relatively) light-hearted music (and/or catchy melodies)? Especially when it's composed by a composer renowned for his somewhat tempestuous music.
I personally like the 8th better than the 6th and 7th (and obviously the 1st, 2nd and 4th).


----------



## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

According to Beethoven's quote (and you posted it as well) :

_Because the Eight is (well, I don't say) so much (but) better (than the Seventh)._


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Just like the 4th, I suppose it's overshadowed because it's just not epic like the 3rd and 9th and doesn't contain any really famous bits compared to the 5th, 6th and 7th. I wonder how posterity would appraise the 8th had it FOLLOWED the 9th? I agree with HC - it's an agreeable contrast to the ones that bookend it and I think it helps the cycle proceed on its majestic course.


----------



## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

I think the 8th is Beethoven's best symphony. 

I think there's some truth in Beethoven's statement about the 8th vs the 7th. The 7th is much more "commercial" as is the 9th.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I think the real reason for the relative lack of popularity of Beethoven's 2nd,4th and 8th symphonies has absolutely nothing to do with their quality as works , which is considerable, but to the laziness and timidity of so many conductors and orchestra managers when it comes to programming . 
Audiences are to blame at least as much . An orchestra can't lose in programming the Eroica, 5th, 7th and 9th symphonies ; audiences know what they like and like what they know . So many concertgoers are set in their ways and reluctant to hear anything out of the oridnary . 
This is not only true about the popularity of Beethoven , but other famous composers such as Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Rimsky-Korsakov,Rachmaninov etc. With Dvorak, you almost never get to hear anythoing but his last three symphonies, the cello concerto, an dmaybe the Slavonic Dances .
But hardly any orchestra outside the Czech Republic ever plays the first six symphonies, which are sadly neglected, and many other orchestral works by Dvorak, or the Requiem, which deserves to be at least as popular as those of Mozart and Verdi .


----------



## itywltmt (May 29, 2011)

superhorn said:


> I think the real reason for the relative lack of popularity of Beethoven's 2nd,4th and 8th symphonies has absolutely nothing to do with their quality as works , which is considerable, but to the laziness and timidity of so many conductors and orchestra managers when it comes to programming .
> Audiences are to blame at least as much . An orchestra can't lose in programming the Eroica, 5th, 7th and 9th symphonies ; audiences know what they like and like what they know . So many concertgoers are set in their ways and reluctant to hear anything out of the oridnary .
> This is not only true about the popularity of Beethoven , but other famous composers such as Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Rimsky-Korsakov,Rachmaninov etc. With Dvorak, you almost never get to hear anythoing but his last three symphonies, the cello concerto, an dmaybe the Slavonic Dances .
> But hardly any orchestra outside the Czech Republic ever plays the first six symphonies, which are sadly neglected, and many other orchestral works by Dvorak, or the Requiem, which deserves to be at least as popular as those of Mozart and Verdi .


I think there's some truth to that. Orchestras do have a tough time reconciling their mission of "broademning their audience's repertoire" and "attracting the public with the works they know and love". The result is, often times, combining some "new commission" or some lesser known work with a work from the standard repertoire.

Seems that the only time the lesser-played Beethoven symphonies get heard are as part of some "Beethoven cycle" or played by student orchestras. Sad, really.

And I have to agree with Superhorn about the early Dvorak symphonies - it's sad that they aren't played more often.


----------



## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Beethoven's Eighth Symphony is one of those pieces, like Schumann's Second and Brahms' Third, that depend upon a good performance to bring them out. I've heard some really dreadful recordings of the Eighth, some of which are done at such a slow tempo that I can only suspect that it was done to make sure that it lasted long enough to be sold as a stand-alone 33 rpm record. Another recording takes one of the greatest moments in the piece - the beginning of the recapitulation by the cellos in the first movement - and drowns the theme out in the brass so that you're wondering what was the point of that huge buildup. 

It's also a piece that demands a Mozart-sized orchestra so that it can be knife-edged sharp in rhythm and so that its inner voices can be heard. Give it to an 80-piece orchestra with twelve cellos and eight double basses, and you have sludge soup on order. 

Finally, it suffers from the classic critics' stamp of overrating tragedy and underrating comedy. I hope I have my terminology right here, but a summary of the first movement of the Eroica is a dramatic, triumphant way of resolving the augmented sixth note that occurs at the end of the theme. Beethoven takes about sixteen minutes of tense drama to do this, and it's utterly wonderful.

In the final movement of the Eighth, the dissonant note is an augmented fifth - it screams at us after the initial theme tapers away, and Beethoven then takes about seven minutes of rip-roaring fun to resolve it all. It's a wild ride, with reminiscences of the first movement's rhythm driving it along. And it's so much fun to go on that ride...


----------



## mleghorn (May 18, 2011)

Very interesting post Lukecash. I congratulate you for putting so much of your thoughts into words, and describing somewhat intangible aspects of Beethoven's 8th and his style in general.

The 8th is one of my favorite Beethoven symphonies. It's concise, and is densely packed with ideas and inventiveness. I consider the last movement to be one of the most sharply focused and imaginative pieces music ever written.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I must listen to it again.


----------



## afterpostjack (May 2, 2010)

I think the 2nd and 8th symphonies sound better when not interpreted romantically (Harnoncourt and Norrington are better than Karajan for these works IMO). The 8th is well-crafted, and I think its two middle movements are the most memorable. Beethoven's 4th is one of my favorites, together with the 7th and 5th. It seems like the even numbered symphonies are not as accessible as the others.


----------



## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Nuukeer said:


> I think the 2nd and 8th symphonies sound better when not interpreted romantically (Harnoncourt and Norrington are better than Karajan for these works IMO). The 8th is well-crafted, and I think its two middle movements are the most memorable. Beethoven's 4th is one of my favorites, together with the 7th and 5th. It seems like the even numbered symphonies are not as accessible as the others.


 Curiously, the even-numbered ones should be the more accesible ones, yet their apparent lack of drama and epic struggle make them seem less immediately attractive.

I personally think all Beethoven's symphonies sound better with a romantic-oriented conductor. I have realized that the even numbered symphonies, in hands of a different conductor, can sometimes sound more irrelevant. Toscanini made wonders with the 8th, Chailly made it seem irrelevant background music. But it's not absolute: Chailly made a terrific 4th, and the more germanic Kurt Masur delivered a poor 4th in his cycle.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

superhorn said:


> I think the real reason for the relative lack of popularity of Beethoven's 2nd,4th and 8th symphonies has absolutely nothing to do with their quality as works , which is considerable, but to the laziness and timidity of so many conductors and orchestra managers when it comes to programming .
> Audiences are to blame at least as much . An orchestra can't lose in programming the Eroica, 5th, 7th and 9th symphonies ; audiences know what they like and like what they know . So many concertgoers are set in their ways and reluctant to hear anything out of the oridnary .
> This is not only true about the popularity of Beethoven , but other famous composers such as Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Rimsky-Korsakov,Rachmaninov etc. With Dvorak, you almost never get to hear anythoing but his last three symphonies, the cello concerto, an dmaybe the Slavonic Dances .
> But hardly any orchestra outside the Czech Republic ever plays the first six symphonies, which are sadly neglected, and many other orchestral works by Dvorak, or the Requiem, which deserves to be at least as popular as those of Mozart and Verdi .


Meh, I know Sid would type your ear off for saying that listeners are all too reluctant nowadays.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

waldvogel said:


> Beethoven's Eighth Symphony is one of those pieces, like Schumann's Second and Brahms' Third, that depend upon a good performance to bring them out. I've heard some really dreadful recordings of the Eighth, some of which are done at such a slow tempo that I can only suspect that it was done to make sure that it lasted long enough to be sold as a stand-alone 33 rpm record. Another recording takes one of the greatest moments in the piece - the beginning of the recapitulation by the cellos in the first movement - and drowns the theme out in the brass so that you're wondering what was the point of that huge buildup.
> 
> It's also a piece that demands a Mozart-sized orchestra so that it can be knife-edged sharp in rhythm and so that its inner voices can be heard. Give it to an 80-piece orchestra with twelve cellos and eight double basses, and you have sludge soup on order.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more about the orchestra size, considering the number of soupy recordings we've dealt with (that is, if you're around the same generation as me). As for that dissonant fifth in the final movement, I remember there being more of the type in that movement. But that's definitely the big resolution there.

Maybe we all should make a thread about the different works driven by a harmonic resolution.


----------



## mleghorn (May 18, 2011)

I hear some similarities between the last movement of Mahler's 7th and the last movement of Beethoven's 8th. Much of the spirit and qualities of the Beethoven are in the Mahler, i.e. the humor, energy, and unexpected twists and turns.

Many great symphonies after Beethoven pay homage to Beethoven. Just to name a few examples: Bruckner 8 starts out with the same rhythmic motifs as Beethoven 9; Mahler's 5th, 2nd movement, quotes Beethoven's 5th, 1st movement; Vaughan Williams 4th, 3rd mvt transition to 4th mvt is very similar to Beethoven's 5th.


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Waldvogel finally nailed it for me...with the right interpretation it could be my favorite.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Through the 8th, LvB was like a good pool or billiards player with his symphonies...always thinking ahead. I suspect he may have had some wonderings about the 8th being his last. He was in poor health. There were domestic distractions. 

From the time 8 was premiered, it would be ten years before 9 was unveiled. In that period and beyond, LvB recovered sufficiently, apart from hearing, and wrote his late Piano Sonatas and String Quartets. These came easily, compared to the 9th Symphony.

Many look at 8 as being a bridge 'tween 7 & 9. It's easy to look back and surmise that, but as I mentioned, other speculation is most warranted.

When I hear a good strong performance of 8, as with Harnoncourt or Scherchen, I don't hear much of the funny stuff aka LvB humor, that others seem to dwell on. I hear tribute, but mostly forcefulness...LvB re-asserting his accomplishment. Mostly, I hear what was to come...Symphony 9.

My feeling is that 9 is an extension and elaboration of 8's thoughts, with orgasmic choral addition, that IMO was badly needed in the LvB legacy.

8 is an important work. It's reputation would be supreme without 9, in many ways the child.


----------



## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

This is a great thread. I love Beethoven's Symphonies and listen to them frequently. For some reason I rarely listen to the 8th. After reading this thread I was thinking back over the last 6 months or so, and trying to remember which of the Symphonies during that time I have actively listened to the most. Active listening as opposed to just playing in the background. When I listen actively, I like to follow the score.

I find I listen to 6 the most (I was shocked when I realized this) then 9, 5, 7 and 1. I cannot remember the last time I actively listened to 2, 4, or 8, yet I like all three of them.

Perhaps some of us simply love the others so much, that when we think Beethoven we cant pass up the chance to listen to the ones we love the best?


----------



## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

As I continue to think about this question, I believe the answer as to the lesser popularity of the 8th is twofold. First, emotional content. For me, the 8th does not stir me emotionally like 9, 6, 5, and 7. Second is the sheer beauty (to me) of the melodic content. The 1st and 3rd movements of the 9th and the 6th still fill me with awe at their beauty even after 50 years of listening to them.

Perhaps in a larger since, all musical preferences might come down to emotional, melodic or intellectual stimulation. Does that make sense? I also am very partial to an effective orchestration. Would that fall into the intellectual stimulation?


----------



## Moscow-Mahler (Jul 8, 2010)

I love this symphony.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Interesting... This thread has lasted longer than I thought it would.


----------



## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

It's too subtle and without the support of a narrative "interest" to compensate for its dearth of overt drama. The 8th is underrated for the same reason that Parsifal, Falstaff, and Schubert's 4th are underrated. Fate would've slated the 6th to the same oblivion if not for the colorful program. 

The more I listen to Beethoven the more consistent the symphonies appear as a body of work, not peaks and valleys but a shimmering plateau.

The temptation to squeeze as much drama out of a work is one few conductors can resist. You can make an entire career out it like Leonard Bernstein. Now, giving in to this temptation is not so unfruitful when conducting the dramatic symphonies, but to do full justice to the 4th, 7th, and 8th is a painstaking, unrewarding, in terms of recognition from the audience (after all, who remembers Kleiber's magnificent live Beethoven 4 with the Bavarian State Orchestra?), task that appears to not interest so many conductors. The soul of these symphonies are not in the quakes and terrors of the crescendos and climaxes. You'd have to be somewhat of an irrational perfection likes Carlos Kleiber to expend so much effort into a performance of the 4th. I say this because his efforts would have been better spent on recording grander works like the Eroica or the rest of Wagner's music dramas or Mahler's symphonies. The 4th is great, but I feel like he owes me a Mahler 7, a Mahler 9, a Meistersinger or Parsifal much more.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

No idea how to vote on this one, but in the 8th I like to hear the players having a jolly good time. Why not?


----------



## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I actually came to Beethoven's 8th via Liszt's piano transcription.

I found the opening majestic and unmistakably Beethovenian. The second movement always makes me chuckle a little bit, there's an almost Haydn-esque wit in it. The third movement sounds rather pastoral--almost as though it was excised from the sixth symphony. The final movement is heroic, and that quality is best revealed in recordings in which the orchestral harmony is clear. In fact, the final movement is beautifully transcribed by Liszt, in which one can hear distinctly the incredibly harmonies that are virtually drowned out by the bombast of a full symphony--not that I'm complaining about the largeness of symphonic sonority.


----------



## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

The 8th is, without question, my favourite! I find the 9th, impressive though it might be as a symphonic ground-breaker, to be rather bloated and long-winded. It may have been revolutionary at the time to include a choir, yes, but this orgiastic vocal addition no more increases the level of my musical enjoyment than a gorilla on heat might increase my interest in the gorillas in the gorilla cage at a zoo. A curiosity, a distraction maybe - no more. 

I think the third is over-rate, too.

So then..., here's to the 8th; Beethoven's "bad boy" with rhythm, drive, melody and the good taste not to overstay it's welcome.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Ninth is "bloated and long-winded... the orgiastic vocal addition no more increases the level of my musical enjoyment than a gorilla in heat..."

Very nice invective! Too little of that sort of thing these days. With your kind persmission, I'll add it to my collection!

Spohr is longer-winded and less colorful: "The three first movements seem to me, despite some solitary flashes of genius, worse than all the eight previous symphonies. The fourth movement is, in my opinion, so monstrous and tasteless and, in its grasp of Schiller's Ode, so trivial that I cannot understand how a genius like Beethoven could have written it."


----------

