# Piano Sonata - Well not really



## Igneous01

After a long time away from these forums, and suffering from an inability to write music for nearly a year, I have finally been able to write again after finding a new composition teacher and studying the works of composers that I like.

This is something that I had sketches for and posted in the 'what are you currently working on?' thread here a long time ago. I just recently decided to continue working on it, and progress has been rather decent.

This is sort of a 1 movement sonata, but not really. It is kind of a collage of romantic styles around a 4 note motif, contrasted by this Scriabin like quality as found in the 'Black Mass' sonata. With key changes being directly related to the 4 note motif. Its currently around 3 minutes and unfinished, but I think theres enough to understand whats going on.

Feedback would be great, in particular how possible/difficult some sections are, and if theres any issues with markings here (the score still has some pseudo comments I left in for keepsake). Advice on tempo markings would be good as well (The 'Adagio' Section doesnt feel like Adagio, although the pacing is correct)

score:
View attachment Piece - Bb minor - score.pdf


sample:

__
https://soundcloud.com/sapphire-1%2Fpiano-piece-bb-minor


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## madviolist

That was quite charming. I loved the harmonies, what a shame it's "played" by the computer.

By the way, are you pianist yourself? It's always interesting to hear composer's own performance of his/her piece.


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## Igneous01

madviolist said:


> That was quite charming. I loved the harmonies, what a shame it's "played" by the computer.
> 
> By the way, are you pianist yourself? It's always interesting to hear composer's own performance of his/her piece.


Thank you  , however my current technical ability is not fit to play this right now, well maybe certain passages, but I have to start playing from the ground up again due to bad habits/posture.

I might ask around my community if anyone is interested in playing it, and see how things go.


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## hreichgott

Cliffhanger! I want to hear the rest 
It is a bit like the midpoint of preludes by Scriabin, Chopin and Gershwin. I enjoyed it. I think it maybe has some notes here and there that upon reflection you decide can be cut out due to being non-essential, but I'm not going to get any more specific than that since you have a composition teacher who is probably much more qualified to advise than I.

Now to your questions.

Markings. There are some weird ones. "Slow grand" is new to me and I don't know what it means. "Natural trill" you don't need to specify as it is the default choice unless there's already sharps or flats. The footnote about tempo markings is confusing. You can just specify right next to the tempo marking quarter note=some number or eighth note=some number. 

Difficulty. It's all playable. It's not easy. Probably mostly equivalent to the hardest Chopin preludes except for a couple of more difficult spots: rapid chord changes in the LH that don't easily fit under the hand, m. 16-17, and very fast parallel 6ths, m. 57. Those two spots will dramatically reduce the number of people who can play it. Up to you whether to leave as is or revise those spots to make it more accessible.


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## Igneous01

hreichgott said:


> Cliffhanger! I want to hear the rest
> It is a bit like the midpoint of preludes by Scriabin, Chopin and Gershwin. I enjoyed it. I think it maybe has some notes here and there that upon reflection you decide can be cut out due to being non-essential, but I'm not going to get any more specific than that since you have a composition teacher who is probably much more qualified to advise than I.
> 
> Now to your questions.
> 
> Markings. There are some weird ones. "Slow grand" is new to me and I don't know what it means. "Natural trill" you don't need to specify as it is the default choice unless there's already sharps or flats. The footnote about tempo markings is confusing. You can just specify right next to the tempo marking quarter note=some number or eighth note=some number.
> 
> Difficulty. It's all playable. It's not easy. Probably mostly equivalent to the hardest Chopin preludes except for a couple of more difficult spots: rapid chord changes in the LH that don't easily fit under the hand, m. 16-17, and very fast parallel 6ths, m. 57. Those two spots will dramatically reduce the number of people who can play it. Up to you whether to leave as is or revise those spots to make it more accessible.


Thank you so much for the input, I think I am going to re-evaluate those two sections to reduce some of the difficulty. It's not my intention to write difficult music, but I get side tracked  However I am a little worried about m.42-44 in the right hand, as this seems fiendishly difficult to play comfortably when I was testing out hand positions for it.

But thank you so much for your valuable feedback! and yes - some of those strange markings are really reminders to myself so I know what I was thinking when I was writing this lol


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## madviolist

About the difficulty - to me it seems much more like Ravel, Chopin was never so complex in both harmonies and rhytms. It's real challenge.


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## PetrB

madviolist said:


> About the difficulty - to me it seems much more like Ravel, Chopin was never so complex in both harmonies and rhytms. It's real challenge.


Without citing any particular pieces, I think Chopin was often as "complex," tuplets against tuplets, whether as a consistent through the piece etude, or when needed, here and there. What Chopin was, also famously, was a composer who so intimately knew piano and pianism, that all but one of his pieces, no matter how difficult, "fit the hands like a glove" once they are learned -- i.e. plainly very well-informed music completely idiomatic to the instrument, and for the player.

Writing the way the OP has, not having that physical knowing of the feeling of how things fit well, even the most difficult, under the hand, we have a very different result as far as the playbility of what is here presented.

That downward cascade of sixths, though, could be rendered as a double-stop glissando, the top on the black notes, the thumb, angled to nail down, on the whites (this would change the pitch content but save the gesture): while that too is a technical hurdle far beyond "intermediate" level, it might be a readier solution to that measure than what is there now written.


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## Novelette

I'll say that at first glance, I was bewildered by the tempo movement from 7/8 suddenly to 2/8 for a single measure, to 5/8 for two measures, then to 4/8. However, looking more closely into the textures, this transition was well handled.

A few thoughts:

- Perhaps reconsider the usage of phrase marks, some of the tagged groups don't seem to make consistent phrases.
- To echo PetrB, be mindful of the performer.
- Convert the appoggiaturas into acciaccaturas, and connect them with a slur
- Consider inserting some auxiliary bar lines to assist the performer's time keeping; it's often appreciated in works that feature complex time signatures, especially when accompanied by complex rhythms.
- Measure 56: The triplet bar under the E Double-Flat and D in the bass clef is misplaced.
- The rhythmic division of the measures is very well done: your placement of dotted and undotted rests is very informed.

Great work!


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## hreichgott

PetrB said:


> Without citing any particular pieces, I think Chopin was often as "complex," tuplets against tuplets, whether as a consistent through the piece etude, or when needed, here and there. What Chopin was, also famously, was a composer who so intimately knew piano and pianism, that all but one of his pieces, no matter how difficult, "fit the hands like a glove" once they are learned -- i.e. plainly very well-informed music completely idiomatic to the instrument, and for the player.
> 
> Writing the way the OP has, not having that physical knowing of the feeling of how things fit well, even the most difficult, under the hand, we have a very different result as far as the playbility of what is here presented.
> 
> That downward cascade of sixths, though, could be rendered as a double-stop glissando, the top on the black notes, the thumb, angled to nail down, on the whites (this would change the pitch content but save the gesture): while that too is a technical hurdle far beyond "intermediate" level, it might be a readier solution to that measure than what is there now written.


OK guys, I didn't mean that the sonata is like Chopin, I just mentioned the hardest Preludes as a general benchmark for difficulty, as something more objective than "kinda hard" or "something that would take me more than a few days to learn". I had in mind the difficulty of Op. 28 no. 8 for example







Not that this piece resembles the writing of Op. 28 no. 8.

I am curious to know which one piece of Chopin PetrB would single out as not fitting well in the hand


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## PetrB

hreichgott said:


> OK guys, I didn't mean that the sonata is like Chopin, I just mentioned the hardest Preludes as a general benchmark for difficulty, as something more objective than "kinda hard" or "something that would take me more than a few days to learn". I had in mind the difficulty of Op. 28 no. 8 for example
> View attachment 29353
> 
> Not that this piece resembles the writing of Op. 28 no. 8.
> 
> I am curious to know which one piece of Chopin PetrB would single out as not fitting well in the hand


If it can fit under the hands at all and be played in tempo, then that is what every composer has a right to expect from a pianist. Just read into any comments on Schumann, "awkwardly" using the piano while thinking, evidently, as an instrumental symphonist. Pianists have been "negotiating" Schumann quite nicely for some time now 

The Chopin I wish I did remember (and making it worse is that I'm certain it was one of many I studied) 

My teacher named it, knowing ALL of Chopin extensively. "This piece is against the hand." the phrase she used. In that piece, there are numbers of places where hand position, the physical approach in playing the instrument are highly counter-intuitive, where all the rest of Chopin does "fit the hands like a glove."


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## Igneous01

Just wanted to give my thanks for all the insights - i spoke with my teacher about this piece, and he found the beginning triplets beamed with the first 8th note confusing, and we both agreed that the 5/8 furiouso section is not playable in its current state. He suggested I take this into another time signature than using 7/8, considering the amount of triplets used. Im still undecided about breaking the 7/8 into smaller 4/8 and 3/8 sections, but I think stating beat groupings might be better, 2+2+3 for the first few measures, than 3+2+2 and so on would probably make the triplets not cross over beats and be easier to read.

Thank you PetrB and Novelette for the suggestions, I am going to re examine some passages and make it more comfortable to play.


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## juergen

Wow, just wow! Yes, I can feel the influence of Scriabin's black mass, but I don't think it comes too close to it. It's not just a collage. Maybe some might criticize the style as not "contemporary" enough. But I like it much. You should finish it.


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