# Which singer is the definitive ____ for you?



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

which singer is the definitive example for you of what a certain role should be?
for me
*Carmen:* Maria Callas (duh! lol)
*Violetta:* Anna Moffo
*Rosina:* Joyce DiDonato
*Beatrice di Tenda:* Joan Sutherland
*Duke of Mantua:* Jonas Kaufman (the duke is supposed to be confident and SEDUCTIVE, not thin, wispy and sounding as if he is being grabbed by the testicles)
*Queen of the Night:* Edda Moser (she is the QUEEN of the Night, not the Girly Princess of the Night as is usually played)
*Aida:* Martina Arroyo (yes, I think she is marginally better than Price, don't butcher me XD)
*Norma:* Maria Callas (other singers have sung various pieces better, Callas takes the cake for best performance of ALL of Norma)
*Esclarmonde:* Joan Sutherland (has any other decent singer even _attempted_ this role? lol)
*all Rossini and Verdi bass roles:* Samuel Ramey
*Manrico:* Franco Corelli 
*Brunhilde:* Kirsten Flagstad (another duh lol)
*Azucena:* Viorica Cortez
*Eboli:* Elena Obraztsova 
*Semiramide:* June Anderson
*Rigoletto:* Cornel MacNeil

and a few popular pieces/works commonly sung by classical singers:
*Verdi Requiem (soprano)*: Martina Arroyo
*Summertime:* Leontyne Price
*Sometimes I Feel Like A Motherless Child:* Bobby Breene (ironically, not only was he not a classical singer, he was white, Canadian AND a little boy, but he still has the most moving rendition of this piece to date imo)
*Erlkonig:* Samuel Ramey (too many lightweight voices singing this piece. it must be a deep, dark, SINISTER voice)
*Blow The Wind Southerly:* Kathleen Ferrier


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

In my own experience, Chrysothemis in ELEKTRA "is" Deborah Voigt, Rigoletto "is" Sherrill Milnes, Lucia di Lammermoor "is" Joan Sutherland, and Mozart's Figaro "is" Bryn Terfel. I'm not claiming they're the best ever or anything like that; I'm just saying that _for me personally_ they sum up those roles.

*Edited to add:* Balakaiboy, it's interesting, but I've never even considered Kaufmann as the Duke of Mantua; for me personally the Duke "is" Pavarotti. However, your description of how the Duke should be reminds me of how I view Alfredo in LA TRAVIATA. Too often Alfredo is presented as impossibly naive, when IMO he should be more "manly." I'm sure Kaufmann was a great Alfredo at one time or other.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

*Don Giovanni:* Cesare Siepi
*Duke of Mantua:* Alfredo Kraus
*Salome:* Karita Mattila
*Aïda:* Leontyne Price
*Leonora (La Forza):* Leontyne Price
*Ramirez/Johnson (La Fanciulla):* Jonas Kaufmann
*Almaviva (Il Barbiere):* Juan Diego Florez
*Gianni Schicchi:* Alessandro Corbelli


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

*Figaro (Rossini)*: Tito Gobbi, honorable mention to Hermann Prey
*Figaro (Mozart)* : Hermann Prey
*Countess Almaviva*: Kiri Te Kanawa
*Salome*: Toss up between Hidegard Behrens & Maria Ewing
*Cassandra*: Anna Caterina Antonacci
*Carmen*: Maria Callas
*Tosca*: Maria Callas
*All Rossini basso-buffo roles*: Paolo Montarsolo


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

My picks - totally personal

Paul in Die Tote Stadt: Klaus Florian Vogt
Manon: Natalie Dessay
Eléazar (La Juive): Neil Shicoff
Cassandra: Anna Caterina Antonacci
Carmen: Julia Migenes Johnson
Countess Almaviva: Kiri Te Kanawa
Minnie (La Fanciulla): Nina Stemme
Samson: Plácido Domingo
Rigoletto: John Rawnsley
Semele: Cecilia Bartoli
Aschenbach: John Graham Hall
Captain Vere: John Mark Ainsley
Werther: Jonas Kaufmann
La Belle Hélène: Felicity Lott
Hans Sachs: Gerald Finley
Filippo II: Ferrucci Furlanetto
Giulio Cesare: Sarah Connolly
Violetta: Ileana Cotrubas
Don Giovanni: Erwin Schrott
Figaro (Rossini): Peter Mattei
All Rossini Buffo roles: Alessandro Corbelli
Falstaff: Ambrogio Maestri
Salome: Maria Ewing
Poppea: Sonya Yoncheva
Lully's Armide: Stéphanie D'Oustrac
Saint-Saëns' Henri VIII: Philippe Rouillon
Arabella: Kiri te Kanawa
Don Carlo: Luis Lima
Lady Macbeth: Anna Netrebko
Siegfried: Siegfried Jerusalem
Parsifal: Jonas Kaufmann
Lohengrin: Klaus Florian Vogt and Jonas Kaufmann


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Rosina: Joyce DiDonato
Figaro (Barbieri): Tito Gobbi
Cenerentola: Joyce DiDonato
Romeo (I Capuleti e I Montecchi): Janet Baker/Joyce DiDonato
Norma: Maria Callas
Violetta: Maria Callas
Carmen: Maria Callas
Countess (Le Nozze di Figaro): Kiri Te Kanawa/Renee Fleming
Count Almaviva (Le Nozze di Figaro): Thomas Allen
Count Almaviva (Barbiere): Juan Diego Florez
Cherubino: Frederica Von Stade
Bartolo: Alessandro Corbelli
Don Magnifico: Alessandro Corbelli 
Dulcamora: Alessandro Corbelli 
Sulpice: Alessandro Corbelli
Queen of the night: Edda Moser/Diana Damrau
Macbeth: Renato Bruson


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You are proving to be a godsend for compulsive listers. This is a toughie. Are we expexted to have heard all the people we pick in the roles we assign them? That would narrow the field greatly. So I'll assume the answer is no.

*Mozart* _Zauberflote:_

Queen of the Night: Edda Moser 



Pamina: Elisabeth Grummer 



Tamino: Fritz Wunderlich 



Papageno: Hermann Prey 



Sarastro: Martti Talvela 




*Beethoven* _Fidelio_

Leonore: Frida Leider 



Florestan: Jon Vickers 




*Cherubini* _Medea_

Medea: Callas 




*Rossini* _Il Barbiere di Siviglia_

Figaro: Riccardo Stracciari 



Rosina: Conchita Supervia 



Almaviva: Fernando de Lucia 




*Bellini** and Donizetti*

Any female lead: Maria Callas (pick anything)

*Spontini* _La Vestale_

Julia: Rosa Ponselle 




*Verdi* _Rigoletto_

Rigoletto: Riccardo Stracciari 



Gilda: Amelita Galli-Curci 



Duke: Enrico Caruso 




_La Traviata_

Violetta: Maria Callas 



Alfredo: Tito Schipa 



Germont: Mattia Battistini 



 (pity we only get one verse)

_Otello_

Otello: Lauritz Melchior 



 (yes, it's in German, but the voice and the expression will stun you senseless)
Desdemona: Renata Tebaldi 



Iago: Titta Ruffo 




More tomorrow. :tiphat:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Verdi. 
Falstaff Gobbi
Ford Panerai
Alice Schwartskopf
Nannetta Moffo
Fenton Alva

Otello Vickers
Iago Gobbi
Desdemona Tebaldi

Aida Tebaldi
Radames Bergonzi
Amoroso Gobbi

Rigoletto Gobbi
Gilda Callas
Duke Di Stefano

Trovotore
Leonora Callas
Manrico Corelli
De Luna Gobbi


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You are proving to be a godsend for compulsive listers. This is a toughie. Are we expexted to have heard all the people we pick in the roles we assign them? That would narrow the field greatly. So I'll assume the answer is no.
> 
> *Mozart* _Zauberflote:_
> 
> ...


Thank you Woodduck for furnishing all of these great _links_.

I'm listening to Elisabeth Grummer's Pamina right now. _;D_


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

These are also just my personal choices, and in no sort of order:

*Tamino:* Fritz Wunderlich
*Violetta*: Ileana Cotrubas
*Leonore:* Sena Jurinac/Camilla Nylund
*Florestan*: Jonas Kaufmann
*Pizarro*: Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau/Dietrich Henschel
*Count di Luna*: Sherrill Milnes
*Rigoletto*: Sherrill Milnes
*Paul* (_Die tote Stadt_): Klaus Florian Vogt
*Amneris*: Agnes Baltsa
*Lohengrin*: Jonas Kaufmann
*Elisabetta di Valois*: Anja Harteros
*Siegfried*: Siegfried Jerusalem
*Leonora* (Il Trovatore): Katia Ricciarelli/Anja Harteros
*Anna Bolena*/*Giovanna Seymour*: Anna Netrebko and Elīna Garanča
*Count Almaviva* (Il Barbiere di Siviglia): Francisco Araiza/Fritz Wunderlich
*Idomeneo*: Jonas Kaufmann
*Idamante*: Werner Krenn
*Serse*: Fritz Wunderlich


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Carmen: Rise Stevens
Gioconda: Tebaldi
Tosca: Callas
Lady Macbeth: Callas
Lucia: Sutherland
Manrico: Caruso
Isolde: Flagstad
Elektra: Varnay
Chrysothemis: Rysenek
Manon: Sills
Cleopatra: Sills
Esclarmonde: Sutherland
Lohengrin: Melchior
Macbeth: Warren
Semiramide: Sutherland
Delila:Rise Stevens
Ariadne: Norman
Semele: Sills
Amneris: Bumbry
Aida: Price
Turandot: Nilsson
Calaf in Turandot: Corelli
Erda: Ewa Podles
Bruinhilde: Varnay
Salome: Welitsch


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mozart

Don Giovanni Wachter
Leporello. Taddei
Donna Anna. Sutherland
Elvira. Schwartskopf

Figaro. Bruscantini
Susanna. Patricia Ciofi
Count Gerald Finlay
Countess. Veronique Gens


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

Rosina: Maria Callas
Violetta: Maria Callas
Norma: Maria Callas
Gilda: Maria Callas
Carmen: Maria Callas
Tosca: Maria Callas
Cenerentola: Ruxandra Donose
Lucia: Sutherland
Queen of the night: Diana Damrau

Calaf (Turandot): Franco Corelli
Count Almaviva (Il Barbiere): Juan Diego Florez
Rigoletto: Leo Nucci
Figaro (Il Barbiere): John Rawnsley
Don Giovanni: Simon Keenlyside
Bartolo: Claudio Desderi
Scarpia: Tito Gobbi


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Gedda for Faust and Hoffman

Alva for Almaviva
Bruscantini for Figaro
Callas for Rosina
de los Angeles for Margherita
Callas for Lucia
Corelli, Manrico


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

*Weber* _Der Freischutz_

Max: Franz Volker 



 (live performance 1933, terrible sound, great singing)
Agathe: Elisabeth Grummer 



Kaspar: Gottlob Frick 




*Wagner* _Der Fliegende Hollander_

The Dutchman: Hermann Uhde 



Senta: Kirsten Flagstad 



Erik: Franz Volker 



Daland: Gottlob Frick 




_Tannhauser_

Tannhauser: Lauritz Melchior 



Venus: Christa Ludwig 



Elisabeth: Lotte Lehmann 



Wolfram: Joseph Schwarz 



 (If you've never heard of Schwarz, this will stun you)

_Lohengrin_

Lohengrin: Jonas Kaufmann 



 (It may not look like _Lohengrin_, but it sure sounds like it.)
Elsa: Elisabeth Grummer 



Ortrud: Margarethe Klose 



Telramund: Hermann Uhde 




_Der Ring des Nibelungen_

Wotan: Friedrich Schorr 



Fricka: Margarethe Klose (Can't find any of her Fricka, but here's a bit from _Rienzi_ which should leave no doubts; see also her Ortrud above. 



)
Alberich: Gustav Neidlinger 



Erda: Ewa Podles 



Sieglinde: Lotte Lehmann 



Siegmund: Jon Vickers 



Brunnhilde: Kirsten Flagstad 



Siegfried: Lauritz Melchior 



Hagen: Gottlob Frick 



Gunther: Hermann Uhde 
Gutrune: Elisabeth Grummer 




_Tristan und Isolde _

Tristan: Lauritz Melchior 



Isolde: Frida Leider 



Brangaene: Kerstin Thorborg 



Kurwenal: Herbert Janssen 



Marke: Martti Talvela

_Die Meistersinger_

Hans Sachs: Friedrich Schorr 



Eva: Elisabeth Grummer 



Walther: Sandor Konya 



Pogner: Alexander Kipnis 



 (This is Sarastro, but he did sing Pogner)

_Parsifal_

Parsifal: Lauritz Melchior 



Kundry: Christa Ludwig 



Gurnemanz: Emanuel List 



 (another Sarastro who sang Gurnemanz) 
Amfortas: George London 



Klingsor: Hermann Uhde


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Camillorf said:


> Rosina: Joyce DiDonato
> Figaro (Barbieri): Tito Gobbi
> Cenerentola: Joyce DiDonato
> Romeo (I Capuleti e I Montecchi): Janet Baker/Joyce DiDonato
> ...


Oh yes, I almost forgot: for me Corbelli is Dandini in LA CENERENTOLA. For Magnifico it's a toss-up between Corbelli and Enzo Dara.


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## undifelice (Mar 11, 2015)

Lady M: Maria Callas
Lucia di Lammermoor: Natalie Dessay
Rosina: Joyce DiDonato 
Papa Germont: Sherill Milnes
Kundry: Waltraud Meier


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It is interesting to me that so many have listed Callas as the supreme Carmen, when she never performed the role on stage. I am not taking away from her marvelous studio recording, but Carmen is a very different role for Callas than any she had performed on stage, more coarse and low class. Are you sure she could release her inner tart?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *It is interesting to me that so many have listed Callas as the supreme Carmen,* when she never performed the role on stage. I am not taking away from her marvelous studio recording, but Carmen is a very different role for Callas than any she had performed on stage, more coarse and low class. Are you sure she could release her inner tart?


It suggests to me that many people a) never listen to anything recorded pre-1950 b) are unaware that French opera calls for French singing (see my previous point) and c) would rather listen to Callas breaking wind than any other singer giving the most transcendent performance imaginable. :devil:

While she was surely nobody's idea of 'tarty', Callas did at least make it into the era of women's lib. Older generations were at something of a disadvantage in this respect- Emma Calvé's 'inner tart' was pretty well hidden if recordings are anything to go by.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I wouldn't say definitive....but I do like

Tristan - Melchior
Isolde - Flagstad

Orfeo - Ferrier

Norma - Callas
Pollione - Bergonzi

Tosca - Tebaldi
Scarpia - Taddei

Manrico - Bjorling
Leonora - Callas

Lulu - Schafer

Aida - Tebaldi
Amneris - Simionato


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> I wouldn't say definitive....but I do like
> 
> Tristan - Melchior
> Isolde - Flagstad
> ...


I heard a live Tosca Scarpia scene with Tebaldi on one of those rare nights when her C's were all hit dead on and it was phenomenal. It was serious competition for Maria!I have not been able to find out which recording it was. I bought a live one but it was the wrong one and she was up to her old tricks. I completely agree about Ferrier as Orfeo as she was just a smidge better than the great Janet Baker. That is saying a lot. Her androgynous tone was perfect and so heartfelt.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Are you kidding me? Nobody here's mentioned Leonard Warren as the definitive Rigoletto and Erna Berger as the definitive Gilda?
Well they are for me!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Reflecting my strong bias for live performance and extraordinary good luck at being able to attend many in recent years, my list is limited to those I have witnessed live. Those that struck me as definitive were:

*FilippoII (Don Carlo): *Ferruccio Furlanetti
*Lucia*: Natalie Dessay
*Onegin*: Dmitry H 
*Duke of Mantua*: Vittorio Grigolo
*Isolde*: Waltraud Meier
*Hans Sachs*: James Morris
*Carmen:* Elina Garanca
*Werther:* Jonas Kauffman
*Adina:* Anna Netrebko
*Cleopatra (Giulio Cesare):* Danielle de Niese

Admittedly weighted as much for stage presence as for vocal representation.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I heard a live Tosca Scarpia scene with Tebaldi on one of those rare nights w*hen her C's were all hit dead on and it was phenomenal*. It was serious competition for Maria!I have not been able to find out which recording it was. I bought a live one but it was the wrong one and she was up to her old tricks. I completely agree about Ferrier as Orfeo as she was just a smidge better than the great Janet Baker. That is saying a lot. Her androgynous tone was perfect and so heartfelt.


I guess it is the one at Covent Garden. Tebaldi were usually flat on the C's of Tosca, but it seemed that she felt so good that night, that all of the high C's were in tune.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Violetta: Anna Moffo
Scarpia: Cornell MacNeill
Di Luna: Giorgio Zancanaro
Cenerentola: Joyce DiDonato
Chenier: Placido Domingo
Mephistofele: Samuel Ramey


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

One can probably guess the age of the various posters by their selections.
Most I have heard in person-either on stage or in rehearsal

Wotan-Hotter (to bad we don't have more from his earlier days)
Filippo II - Siepi
Hunding/Hagen - Salminen
Sarastro - Harald Stamm 
Hans Sachs - Tozzi
Mefistofele - Ramey
Dutchman - London
Gremin - Plishka (1972 with Ozawa in Boston - heavenly!!)


I think that covers all the voice parts!!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Are you kidding me? Nobody here's mentioned Leonard Warren as the definitive Rigoletto and Erna Berger as the definitive Gilda?
> Well they are for me!


Hmm. What about Gobbi and Callas? And Merrill and Moffo are outstanding on the Solti set. Pity about the conductor sounding as if he was rushing to catch a train most of the time. Solti sometimes conducted with the sensitivity of a pneumatic drill!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

For Wagner the tenor has to be Melchior. Probably a voice like that comes once in a millennium. He seemed to be able to do the lot in addition to playing cards with the stage hands during Parsifal. He'd shift slowly to the side of the stage to take his turn, according to Harold Schoenberg! He got so bored with singing Tristan he'd drop off after the hero's death - it is said that Flagstad had to prod him to stop the snores! But what a voice - something unique.
Other notable Tristans include Vickers and Vinay. 
For Isolde I have only heard Flagstad in the Furtwangler set where she sounds rater too matronly but you can imagine the voice when she was in her prime. Nilsson is a vocal phenomenon but rather too cold for the role imo. I know some don't like Modl but just hear her with Karajan in 1952. Unequalled on that occasion. And I must put in a word for the much maligned Helga Dernesch. She conveys the warmth of the character and actually find myself loving her. Margaret Price does that too but as she never actually sung the role outside the recording studio it might be considered cheating.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Mimi - Freni
Norma, Tosca - Callas
Scarpia, Rigoletto - Gobbi
Don Carlo - Domingo
Isolde - Nilsson
Semiramide - Sutherland
Cenerentola - von Stade
Manon Lescaut - Scotto


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> For Wagner the tenor has to be Melchior. Probably a voice like that comes once in a millennium. He seemed to be able to do the lot in addition to playing cards with the stage hands during Parsifal. He'd shift slowly to the side of the stage to take his turn, according to Harold Schoenberg! He got so bored with singing Tristan he'd drop off after the hero's death - it is said that Flagstad had to prod him to stop the snores! But what a voice - something unique.


If you listen to the live recordings of Melchior's Tristan he sounds anything but bored. Musically sloppy, yes; I was listening to the third act at Covent Garden under Beecham (with Flagstad) and his intensity was quite compelling, but there were a lot of clipped notes and a couple of wrong entries. The night Flagstad had to wake him he must have had a few too many schnapps between the acts!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Are you kidding me? Nobody here's mentioned Leonard Warren as the definitive Rigoletto and Erna Berger as the definitive Gilda?
> Well they are for me!





DavidA said:


> Hmm. What about Gobbi and Callas? And Merrill and Moffo are outstanding on the Solti set. Pity about the conductor sounding as if he was rushing to catch a train most of the time. Solti sometimes conducted with the sensitivity of a pneumatic drill!


Personally I'm desperate to hear Jean Noté's Rigoletto, which Marston are supposed to be releasing at some point. He had a stunningly beautiful, resonant voice with fantastic top notes, and temperament and charisma to spare, but I haven't heard the recording, so I can't judge it, though Noté was a famous Rigoletto at the Paris Opèra and I have high hopes for the 'definitive' potential of that recording. His Gilda, Aline Vallandri, was the Micaëla of the Carmen in that series, and a good singer. In the meantime, the Rigoletto of Antonio Armentano Anticorona is growing on me, although his Gilda (Angela de Angelis) is atrocious. I don't know about 'definitive', but the star singer in the cast that includes Anticorona and de Angelis is the great Fernando de Lucia, and a better Duca we are unlikely to hear. I doubt that Robert Lassalle on the Noté/ Vallandri recording will rival him. (I would do nearly anything for more records by Lassalle _père_, but Lassalle _fils_ is not a singer to get terribly excited about IMO.)

Here's an example of Noté's Rigoletto, with the Gilda of Yvonne Gall, (the Juliette of the definitive recording of Gounod's opera):










Here is the de Lucia complete recording from 1918:






And here is perhaps the best single recording of Rigoletto's music, albeit very brief, sung by the great Leon Melchissedec, a legendary Paris Rigoletto of the generation before Noté:






And no, I haven't heard any of them live. Even I'm not that old!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Personally I'm desperate to hear Jean Noté's Rigoletto, which Marston are supposed to be releasing at some point. He had a stunningly beautiful, resonant voice with fantastic top notes, and temperament and charisma to spare, but I haven't heard the recording, so I can't judge it, though Noté was a famous Rigoletto at the Paris Opèra and I have high hopes for the 'definitive' potential of that recording. His Gilda, Aline Vallandri, was the Micaëla of the Carmen in that series, and a good singer. In the meantime, the Rigoletto of Antonio Armentano Anticorona is growing on me, although his Gilda (Angela de Angelis) is atrocious. I don't know about 'definitive', but the star singer in the cast that includes Anticorona and de Angelis is the great Fernando de Lucia, and a better Duca we are unlikely to hear. I doubt that Robert Lassalle on the Noté/ Vallandri recording will rival him. (I would do nearly anything for more records by Lassalle _père_, but Lassalle _fils_ is not a singer to get terribly excited about IMO.)
> 
> Here's an example of Noté's Rigoletto, with the Gilda of Yvonne Gall, (the Juliette of the definitive recording of Gounod's opera):
> 
> ...


Thanks for more fascinating archaeology. I think we have to admit that the quality of these recordings makes evaluation difficult. We have to use some imagination when voices are deprived of half their overtones, and some of these recordings seem not even good for their time. De Lucia, for example, sounds in his middle and lower voice like he has cotton stuffed in his throat. I admit to not being his biggest fan anyway; sometimes his rhythmic license tips over into incoherence, leaving the accompaniment a perfect mess, and his displays of dynamics reach the point of narcissism. A matter of taste, I suppose.

As for the Rigolettos, I have to say that Note sounds like a superb baritone and a first class Rigoletto, albeit in French. I can't say that as confidently about Melchissedec, who must have been splendid in his prime but here goes repeatedly off pitch, including sharp for the whole final phrase. It's fantastic singing for a man 64 years old, but we have to imagine his greatness ten or twenty years earlier. I enjoyed Anticorona for the most part, but again the actual thrill of a well-recorded voice is missing, and I found his musicianship slightly suspect at moments (there were some conspicuous aspirates).

The thrill of sheer vocal sonority, along with impeccable style and powerful expression, is to be found in the recordings we have of Stracciari's Rigoletto:





 (from 1927, when he was 52)

The exciting brilliance of his sound (which Ponselle called "a shower of diamonds") is suggested even in an early recording from 1904, when he was 29:






For my money this is Verdi singing that leaves absolutely nothing to be desired. How about a different role, old Daddy Germont?






When have we been privileged to hear the like of _that?_ (Rhetorical question.) And for a bit of dessert, listen to his Figaro and tell me whose surpasses it for brilliance and control:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Callas is practically every opera she sang, but undoubtedly

Norma
Violetta
Medea
Armida (Rossini)
Anna Bolena
Leonora (Il Trovatore)
Lady Macbeth
Gioconda


A few others:
Donna Elvira - Schwarzkopf
Marschallin - Schwarzkopf
Countess Madeleine - Schwarzkopf
Marguerite - De Los Angeles
Manon - De Los Angeles
Tamino - Wunderlich
Scarpia - Gobbi
Simon Boccanegra - Gobbi
Florestan - Vickers
Didon - Janet Baker (yes, just from the two scenes she recorded)
Thais - Fleming (I honestly can't imagine anyone ever singing it better)

I'm sure there'll be more


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I heard a live Tosca Scarpia scene with Tebaldi on one of those rare nights when her C's were all hit dead on and it was phenomenal. It was serious competition for Maria!I have not been able to find out which recording it was. I bought a live one but it was the wrong one and she was up to her old tricks. I completely agree about Ferrier as Orfeo as she was just a smidge better than the great Janet Baker. That is saying a lot. Her androgynous tone was perfect and so heartfelt.


I had the '56 Mitropolous/Metropolitan in mind.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Carmen - de Los Angeles
Don Jose - Gedda
Micaela - Angelici
Escamillo - Blanc


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Thanks for more fascinating archaeology. I think we have to admit that the quality of these recordings makes evaluation difficult. We have to use some imagination when voices are deprived of half their overtones, and some of these recordings seem not even good for their time. De Lucia, for example, sounds in his middle and lower voice like he has cotton stuffed in his throat. I admit to not being his biggest fan anyway; sometimes his rhythmic license tips over into incoherence, leaving the accompaniment a perfect mess, and his displays of dynamics reach the point of narcissism. A matter of taste, I suppose.
> 
> As for the Rigolettos, I have to say that Note sounds like a superb baritone and a first class Rigoletto, albeit in French. I can't say that as confidently about Melchissedec, who must have been splendid in his prime but here goes repeatedly off pitch, including sharp for the whole final phrase. It's fantastic singing for a man 64 years old, but we have to imagine his greatness ten or twenty years earlier. I enjoyed Anticorona for the most part, but again the actual thrill of a well-recorded voice is missing, and I found his musicianship slightly suspect at moments (there were some conspicuous aspirates).
> 
> ...


I've been putting off replying to this post because it means admitting a shameful secret I've nursed for a couple of decades: I don't like Riccardo Stracciari.* Notwithstanding the superlatives lavished on him by almost everybody, I find it a harsh, ugly voice, although the top is more attractive than the rest. He also uses the intrusive aspirate frequently, as you mention that Anticorona does. Stracciari does sound better on the 1904 recording than on the electrical one- whether it's because the voice is younger and fresher or because the muffled sound takes some of the hard edge off the voice, I don't know. His 'Di provenza' is more stylish than most, if you can get past the sound of the voice. (Battistini _owns_ this aria IMO.) Whose Figaro is better than Stracciari's?- I'm not sure if I'm an expert, but I would choose a childhood favourite, Peter Dawson, although he sings in English and at one point rhymes 'barber' with what sounds like 'joy's studded harbour'- I always wondered what that meant.  (Possibly that my ears need syringing.) As Rigoletto, I'm happy to judge Anticorona, a relative nobody, more leniently than Stracciari (_stat magni nominis umbra!)_- in the case of the de Lucia Rigoletto one is just happy to find that the rest of the supporting cast is significantly better than Angela de Angelis, that prolific ruiner of de Lucia records- and Fernando himself is always a joy. Yes, he is- it was the conductor's job to follow him, not the other way around. His vocal prime, such as it was, was probably brief, but that's not really the point with him, although his soft singing was always attractive. I don't think his use of dynamic contrast is any more self indulgent than Battistini's, and I usually find de Lucia the more interesting singer, although Rigoletto isn't really a tenor's opera.

I love Leon Melchissedec for the poise and pathos of his 'O mes maitres'- perhaps it's fortunate that my ear isn't good enough to hear his intonation problems! It's a shame that Maurice Renaud never recorded anything from the opera as I always think of him as Melchissedec's successor in combining dramatic expression with legato and elegant phrasing. I will have to wait for Jean Noté's Rigoletto to appear on CD to hear a great Golden Age singer in that complete role-I have no doubt he will be worth waiting for!

Peter Dawson, Largo al factotum





*Or Titta Ruffo, but we'll save him for another day!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I've been putting off replying to this post because it means admitting a shameful secret I've nursed for a couple of decades: I don't like Riccardo Stracciari.* Notwithstanding the superlatives lavished on him by almost everybody, I find it a harsh, ugly voice, although the top is more attractive than the rest. He also uses the intrusive aspirate frequently, as you mention that Anticorona does. Stracciari does sound better on the 1904 recording than on the electrical one- whether it's because the voice is younger and fresher or because the muffled sound takes some of the hard edge off the voice, I don't know. His 'Di provenza' is more stylish than most, if you can get past the sound of the voice. (Battistini _owns_ this aria IMO.) Whose Figaro is better than Stracciari's?- I'm not sure if I'm an expert, but I would choose a childhood favourite, Peter Dawson, although he sings in English and at one point rhymes 'barber' with what sounds like 'joy's studded harbour'- I always wondered what that meant.  (Possibly that my ears need syringing.) As Rigoletto, I'm happy to judge Anticorona, a relative nobody, more leniently than Stracciari (_stat magni nominis umbra!)_- in the case of the de Lucia Rigoletto one is just happy to find that the rest of the supporting cast is significantly better than Angela de Angelis, that prolific ruiner of de Lucia records- and Fernando himself is always a joy. Yes, he is- it was the conductor's job to follow him, not the other way around. His vocal prime, such as it was, was probably brief, but that's not really the point with him, although his soft singing was always attractive. I don't think his use of dynamic contrast is any more self indulgent than Battistini's, and I usually find de Lucia the more interesting singer, although Rigoletto isn't really a tenor's opera.
> 
> I love Leon Melchissedec for the poise and pathos of his 'O mes maitres'- perhaps it's fortunate that my ear isn't good enough to hear his intonation problems! It's a shame that Maurice Renaud never recorded anything from the opera as I always think of him as Melchissedec's successor in combining dramatic expression with legato and elegant phrasing. I will have to wait for Jean Noté's Rigoletto to appear on CD to hear a great Golden Age singer in that complete role-I have no doubt he will be worth waiting for!
> 
> ...


Now that I have finished laughing and have picked myself up off the floor, I want you to know that if you can find one other vocally knowledgeable person who would rather hear Peter Dawson's Figaro than Riccardo Stracciari's, I will leave you all my worldly goods. Of course you will have to cross the pond to retrieve them, and the airfare will cost you more than they are worth. But just think of their sentimental value.

There's no accounting for taste in vocal timbre, but your judgment of Stracciari's voice as harsh and ugly must be exceedingly uncommon - as uncommon, I would guess, as your feeling that Hermann Winkelmann's recordings actually represent good singing.  To me, Stracciari's voice has an almost matchless combination of richness and brilliance. I do hear that the electrical recordings tend to exaggerate an "edge" which is not heard on acoustic recordings (brilliant voices have always been a challenge to record). But knowing that most of your favorite singers were recorded in the acoustic era makes me suspect strongly that you prefer the human voice with half its overtones - its natural brilliance - shorn off by the shortcomings of an ancient technology. You must realize that none of the singers from that era actually sounded the way their recordings make them sound. In general (but not always), the lower, more dark-timbred voices recorded most accurately; we have a fairly good sense of the timbre of certain basses and baritones, though still with some dulling or mellowing effect, which would have been flattering to some voices but unflattering to others. Tenors fare less well; De Lucia, I think, recorded rather poorly, Caruso much better because of his baritonal timbre. Female voices recorded even worse, and sopranos tend to sound like synthesizers or tuning forks or canaries; God only knows what Melba sounded like. Of course later acoustic recordings are much better than early ones, but it was only with the advent of electric recording technology that we could begin to hear something like the real complexity of the timbre of people's voices.

Here's an early recording of Rosa Ponselle, from around the time of her debut in 1918:





And here are recordings from 1954, made at her home when she was 57:









1918 is not especially early for an acoustic recording. In 1918 she sounds like a great singer, but in 1954 we can hear the sound whose impact caused Serafin to call her a miracle. Imagine how much less like herself Ponselle would have sounded recorded in, say, 1908. Early recordings simply could not capture the rich complexity of her timbre - or anyone else's.

My point is simply that we can judge singers on early recordings on many points of technique and style, and assess pretty accurately how well they used their instruments. But we cannot really judge the sheer sound they made. It's rather mind-boggling to contemplate the voice of someone like Caruso sounding even richer and more brilliant than the voice we know!

I offer the recordings of Stracciari as paragons of Verdi singing on grounds of technical perfection, style, and interpretation. Vocal freedom, enormous power, consistency of tone, flexibility, legato, dynamic control - it's all there, all the time, at his bidding, responsive to every expressive impulse. I also happen to find the sheer sound of the voice, as captured on recordings old or more recent, astonishing. About that sound we can disagree, but if you find him wanting with respect to the rest, it would be interesting to know in what way. The examples I chose from YouTube were not the only ones I could have chosen, but they suffice in my mind to show him to be at least the equal of any other baritone in his repertoire, and the superior of anyone since. (I don't disagree that Battistini's "Di Provenza" is the best, btw.)

An encore of Stracciari's "Cortigiani":





It doesn't get any better than that.

With regard to De Lucia's rhythmic liberties: I'm pretty tolerant of such things, even rather fond of them in some of those old singers - and, yes, it is the conductor's job to follow the singer's expressive impulses. It's also his job to tell the singer when he's making a mess of the music. There really is nothing that can be expressed that requires rhythmic chaos, except a singer's ego.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Now that I have finished laughing and have picked myself up off the floor, I want you to know that if you can find one other vocally knowledgeable person who would rather hear Peter Dawson's Figaro than Riccardo Stracciari's, I will leave you all my worldly goods. Of course you will have to cross the pond to retrieve them, and the airfare will cost you more than they are worth. But just think of their sentimental value.





Woodduck said:


> And for a bit of dessert, listen to [Stracciari's] Figaro and tell me whose surpasses it for brilliance and control:


'Control' would involve getting from one note to another without an aspirate, whereas at 55 seconds in, Stracciari sings 'fohortuna' for 'fortuna', and at 2.20 'behel' for 'bel'. Peter Dawson _never_ used an intrusive aspirate even once as far as I'm aware, and he made hundreds of records, whereas Stracciari seems to have resorted to them on a regular basis. Mostly it's that one recurring annoying flaw that makes me think of Stracciari's 'Largo al factotum' as not being a great record, but when we add to that the harshness of voice and manner, it adds up to a very unattractive whole. Stracciari does make a stab at humour when he imitates his customers' voices- 'eh Figaro' etc, but mostly he just sounds aggressive. I don't think this is a successful record at all, especially in contrast with Dawson's suavity and ease. Of course, Dawson's voice did not have much brilliance: it was a likeable voice rather than a beautiful one, and a little grainy for my taste, but for virtuosity in florid music he is practically unrivalled, certainly by the Italians of his generation. He is most underrated by vocal enthusiasts today, as is perhaps inevitable for a singer who spent far too much time on jingoistic popular songs and (as his alter ego 'Hector Grant') impersonations of Sir Harry Lauder- but just listen to him sing 'Honour and arms' or indeed the 'Largo al factotum', and ask who could do it better.








Woodduck said:


> There's no accounting for taste in vocal timbre, but your judgment of Stracciari's voice as harsh and ugly must be exceedingly uncommon - as uncommon, I would guess, as your feeling that Hermann Winkelmann's recordings actually represent good singing.


I don't think I would want to describe Winkelmann's records simply as 'good singing', because it's more complicated than that: it was still a lovely, sweet toned voice and his greatness is palpable, but so is the fact that he's clearly on his last legs, and the latter is off putting to many people. I personally would always prefer to hear a great singer in decline than an ordinary one in his or her prime, and in the case of some (though not all) of the first class singers of Winkelmann's generation, in decline is the only way we're able to hear them, as they did not make records in their prime. 


Woodduck said:


> But knowing that most of your favorite singers were recorded in the acoustic era makes me suspect strongly that you prefer the human voice with half its overtones - its natural brilliance - shorn off by the shortcomings of an ancient technology. You must realize that none of the singers from that era actually sounded the way their recordings make them sound.


In most cases, my favourite singers recorded _only_ in the acoustic era, so there's no possibility of doing acoustic versus electrical comparisons of the same singer's voice. As with Winkelmann, what there is is all there is: take it or leave it. Of those who made both acoustic and electrical recordings, there are plenty of singers whose voices sounded worse on electrical recordings than they had done on acoustic ones- but in general, I believe that the changeover from one recording method to another coincided with a period of vocal decline for many singers born in the 1870s and 80s, whose careers straddled the acoustic/electric divide: in these cases it's hard to know how much of the apparent fall off in vocal beauty is down to the harshness of the early electricals, and how much is a loss of bloom on the voice caused by advancing years. John McCormack is probably the best example of this phenomenon, but I've also noticed recently that Paul Aumonier and Charles Rousseliere generally don't sound as good on their electrical recordings as they had done on the acoustic ones: all bright sounding voices, and all in middle age at the time of the technological changeover. Conversely, other singers sounded much better on electrical recordings than they had done on acoustic ones. Lucien Fugere, born in 1848, is probably the oldest major singer to have made electrical recordings, and his 1928 recordings show a mellowness and beauty that wasn't so apparent in 1902, when his voice sounded small and dry and rather unexceptional. His voice is unlikely to have been better at the age of 80 than it had been in his 50s: more likely it remained the same, and needed an improved technology to do it justice. Another small dry Opera Comique voice belonged to the bass baritone Etienne Billot: listening to his Mephistopheles on a 1907 record with the Faust of Agustarello Affre, one could be forgiven for thinking that the bass was approaching 50 and the tenor still a young man, when in fact it was the other way around. But singing 'Arretons nous ici' from Le Chalet on a later electrical record, Billot's voice sounds relatively healthier, sweeter and more resonant than it had done twenty years before. Billot's timbre is rather reminiscent of Vanni Marcoux's, who didn't record acoustically AFAIK, but if he had done I suspect the results would be similar to those of Billot and Fugere. Even Rosa Ponselle herself didn't always record well: an early electrical record of the 'Miserere' from Trovatore exaggerates a certain edge to her voice, whereas her partner Giovanni Martinelli sounds fantastic, provided you like his sound in the first place.

Billot in 1907: 



Billot on an electrical record: 




Ponselle and Martinelli: 




Fugere in 1902 and 1928: 




There are a few singers whose beautiful voices I adore who recorded in the LP period, when sound quality should have preserved the overtones of the voice to an acceptably lifelike degree.

Gerard Souzay:





Tony Poncet:









Pavel Lisitsian (Do you _really_ prefer Stracciari to him? ):





Ivan Kozlovsky:





Those guys would have given any of the singers of their grandparents' generation a run for their money!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> 'Control' would involve getting from one note to another without an aspirate, whereas at 55 seconds in, Stracciari sings 'fohortuna' for 'fortuna', and at 2.20 'behel' for 'bel'. Peter Dawson _never_ used an intrusive aspirate even once as far as I'm aware, and he made hundreds of records, whereas Stracciari seems to have resorted to them on a regular basis. Mostly it's that one recurring annoying flaw that makes me think of Stracciari's 'Largo al factotum' as not being a great record, but when we add to that the harshness of voice and manner, it adds up to a very unattractive whole. Stracciari does make a stab at humour when he imitates his customers' voices- 'eh Figaro' etc, but mostly he just sounds aggressive. I don't think this is a successful record at all, especially in contrast with Dawson's suavity and ease. Of course, Dawson's voice did not have much brilliance: it was a likeable voice rather than a beautiful one, and a little grainy for my taste, but for virtuosity in florid music he is practically unrivalled, certainly by the Italians of his generation. He is most underrated by vocal enthusiasts today, as is perhaps inevitable for a singer who spent far too much time on jingoistic popular songs and (as his alter ego 'Hector Grant') impersonations of Sir Harry Lauder- but just listen to him sing 'Honour and arms' or indeed the 'Largo al factotum', and ask who could do it better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Figleaf said:
> 
> 
> > 'Control' would involve getting from one note to another without an aspirate, whereas at 55 seconds in, Stracciari sings 'fohortuna' for 'fortuna', and at 2.20 'behel' for 'bel'. Peter Dawson _never_ used an intrusive aspirate even once as far as I'm aware, and he made hundreds of records, whereas Stracciari seems to have resorted to them on a regular basis. Mostly it's that one recurring annoying flaw that makes me think of Stracciari's 'Largo al factotum' as not being a great record, but when we add to that the harshness of voice and manner, it adds up to a very unattractive whole. Stracciari does make a stab at humour when he imitates his customers' voices- 'eh Figaro' etc, but mostly he just sounds aggressive. I don't think this is a successful record at all, especially in contrast with Dawson's suavity and ease. Of course, Dawson's voice did not have much brilliance: it was a likeable voice rather than a beautiful one, and a little grainy for my taste, but for virtuosity in florid music he is practically unrivalled, certainly by the Italians of his generation. He is most underrated by vocal enthusiasts today, as is perhaps inevitable for a singer who spent far too much time on jingoistic popular songs and (as his alter ego 'Hector Grant') impersonations of Sir Harry Lauder- but just listen to him sing 'Honour and arms' or indeed the 'Largo al factotum', and ask who could do it better.
> ...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am fascinated by just how much detail the two of you (Figleaf & Woodduck) manage to tease out of 100+ year old acoustical recordings given the great limitations on what was possible to capture and the manner in which they had to do the recording. One thing to remember in listening to them is that not only did the technology mask a lot of the voice, but in many cases it would have added to what we hear, i.e. resonances from the horn, etc. What would be interesting is to get a number of current singers where we know what their voice sounds like, and have them do acoustical recordings, then see how they compare to reality. I rather suspect that the best won't always sound the best and that some not so good singers would come out sounding a lot better than reality.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Lucien Fugere, born in 1848, is probably the oldest major singer to have made electrical recordings, and his 1928 recordings show a mellowness and beauty that wasn't so apparent in 1902, when his voice sounded small and dry and rather unexceptional. His voice is unlikely to have been better at the age of 80 than it had been in his 50s: more likely it remained the same, and needed an improved technology to do it justice. Another small dry Opera Comique voice belonged to the bass baritone Etienne Billot: listening to his Mephistopheles on a 1907 record with the Faust of Agustarello Affre, one could be forgiven for thinking that the bass was approaching 50 and the tenor still a young man, when in fact it was the other way around. But singing 'Arretons nous ici' from Le Chalet on a later electrical record, Billot's voice sounds relatively healthier, sweeter and more resonant than it had done twenty years before. Billot's timbre is rather reminiscent of Vanni Marcoux's, who didn't record acoustically AFAIK, but if he had done I suspect the results would be similar to those of Billot and Fugere. Even Rosa Ponselle herself didn't always record well: an early electrical record of the 'Miserere' from Trovatore exaggerates a certain edge to her voice, whereas her partner Giovanni Martinelli sounds fantastic, provided you like his sound in the first place.
> 
> Billot in 1907:
> 
> ...


I'm listening to Lucien Fugere, age 80. Amazing; very little vocal deterioration between 1902 and 1928, and of course a more accurate reproduction. The electrical recording doesn't have the "honkiness" we always get on early acoustics.

I enjoyed Billot. Fine singing with a slightly less than great instrument.

I don't see where Ponselle's voice has an edge but Martinelli's doesn't! I'd say Martinelli's edge had saw teeth as well. Ouch. At least he sounds better here than on his Otello recordings, which I really cannot listen to.

Souzay... Another fine singer and artist with a less than great instrument. I can scarcely imagine him effective outside French song, but I do like him there.

On Poncet, my jury is still out. The voice has a metallic quality which suggests heroic roles but doesn't rule out lyricism, as in this _Faust_ excerpt: 



 A little excessive, but not bad.

Lisitsian may have been the last great baritone (I'm dodging rotten eggs and vegetables). Sometimes I forget him, probably because I have to listen to Verdi in Russian and it sounds unspeakably hideous.

Kozlovsky? Splendid artist, wonderful singer. What a funny little voice - like an elf - but with what art he used it! I've never heard this sung so well.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You may enjoy listening to aged, poorly recorded singers for suggestions of what they might have been.


Only rarely. Mostly I'm happy to listen to vocal records for what they are, not for what the singers had been. And as I said, most of the older generation of great singers at the dawn of the era of sound recording need no excuses made for them- you rightly mention Battistini as an example- and even those who had clearly deteriorated vocally still had much to offer and in some cases are still unrivalled as artists- we have mentioned Melchissédec and Winkelmann as great singers who had clearly suffered some decline, and we might add Maurel, Patti, and Marconi as perhaps even greater singers whose worn voices did not stop them contributing some of the best examples of recorded singing that we have. I am in awe of their talent and listen to their records purely for pleasure.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Because Winkelmann had the remains of a beautiful voice, and his faults were chiefly those of relative age and infirmity (even though he was not terribly old), whereas Stracciari did not have an attractive voice to my ear and was, in some cases such as the Largo, singing objectionably even in his prime. It's not just the aspirates, he lacks charm altogether. In other music it's less of a problem- and if I liked his voice I probably would enjoy him in spite of those issues, but I don't, so I can't. And let's not forget that we're only discussing Winkelmann because his name came up on the other thread as an example of a singer who recorded Verdi's music during the composer's lifetime- not as a paragon of excellence in singing. I like him, and I've been playing his records quite a bit over the last couple of months, but there are other tenors of that era I would usually rather hear, and who don't need us to make any allowances for vocal decline.


I dislike pseudo-arguments that really come down to taste. "Charm," here, is clearly in the ear of the beholder. What is charm, anyway? Just something you think is present if you're charmed, I guess! Well, Stracciari charms the pants off me, so I guess he can't lack charm altogether. What matters to me is that he had a phenomenal voice and technique which held up splendidly throughout his career; his complete _Rigoletto_ from 1930, when he was 55, remains a classic and better than anyone's since. 



 Questions of personal preference aside, criticism of singing like his is nitpicking. We haven't heard his like in our lifetimes and, I dare say, will not.

We will never know what Winkelmann sounded like. What he sounds like now leaves me utterly uncharmed. When we double date, you bring Hermann and I'll bring Riccardo. Hopefully they'll find something to talk - or sing - about.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

What is charm?
Victoria de los Angeles :angel:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> What is charm, anyway?


_The *charm* quark or c quark is the third most massive of all quarks, a type of elementary particle. Charm quarks are found in hadrons, which are subatomic particles made of quarks._


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

For Bartok's "Bluebeard's Castle", there is J. Norman and... inferior interpretations.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> _The *charm* quark or c quark is the third most massive of all quarks, a type of elementary particle. Charm quarks are found in hadrons, which are subatomic particles made of quarks._


I cannot bear singers who quark.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I cannot bear singers who quark.


those must be the anti-charm quarkers


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Don't woodducks quark?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I dislike pseudo-arguments that really come down to taste. "Charm," here, is clearly in the ear of the beholder. What is charm, anyway? Just something you think is present if you're charmed, I guess! Well, Stracciari charms the pants off me, so I guess he can't lack charm altogether. What matters to me is that he had a phenomenal voice and technique which held up splendidly throughout his career; his complete _Rigoletto_ from 1930, when he was 55, remains a classic and better than anyone's since.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know if it's a pseudo argument or not, it's how I feel!

Your observations on Martinelli and Kozlovsky are very funny! :tiphat:

I like Tony Poncet's 'Salut demeure'. He's my kind of tenor: a metallic, powerful, distinctive voice, fantastic high notes, his style is virile yet (mostly) classy, and he doesn't oversentimentalise potentially soppy music like that bit of Faust. His 'Je crois encore entendre' is probably my favourite, along with 'Conduisez moi vers ce navire'- I don't know who else at that time could have brought such charisma and excitement to that music. One can see how someone would be moved to lie at his feet looking up his shorts, as the TV presenter does on the 'O paradis' clip I posted earlier.  (I have no idea what that was all about, btw.)










Thank you for the Ponselle links! 'Bois epais' is lovely, and 'O del mio amato ben' is probably my favourite song. Both are beautifully sung. She takes the latter song rather slowly- I think Tito Schipa has the tempo about right, though maybe there isn't too much difference between them. John McCormack sings my favourite 'O del mio amato ben', stylish and affecting, but he takes it very fast.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Don't woodducks quark?


No. We have a variety of calls, including a soft, rising "jeeeee" sound and, when startled, a loud two-syllable whistle. We are a most uncommon duck, and all who are privileged to see and hear us in our secret wooded haunts are charmed utterly.


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

> For Bartok's "Bluebeard's Castle", there is J. Norman and... inferior interpretations


May I ask who else you have heard in this role? I have sung this opera in English and Hungarian....it only comes to life in the original language for me.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Thank you for the Ponselle links! 'Bois epais' is lovely, and *'O del mio amato ben'* is probably my favourite song. Both are beautifully sung. She takes the latter song rather slowly- I think Tito Schipa has the tempo about right, though maybe there isn't too much difference between them. John McCormack sings my favourite 'O del mio amato ben', stylish and affecting, but he takes it very fast.


I may add Claudia Muzio. She added a whole new dimension to such a simple song with her sweet, unique style of "sighing". I enjoy her version more than of Schipa and Ponselle. But ultimately, these three are insurmountable. I doubt the best of today singers, like Fleming or Kaufmann can even come close in these early 20th century songs.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

And now return to the topic, " Which singer is the definitive ____ for you?". I observed above that some of the singers got mentioned as the definitive even when they just left the recordings of some scenes, not even the entire operas. I will do the same thing:

Claudio Muzio in Refice's _Cecilia_. I used to have the MP3 of the entire opera sung by Scotto, and some arias by Tebaldi. Those are beautiful, but not as tremendous as this:






Muzio and Refice were close friends, and they understood each other well. This single performance of Refice's song probably best captures her art:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I don't know if it's a pseudo argument or not, it's how I feel!
> 
> Your observations on Martinelli and Kozlovsky are very funny! :tiphat:
> 
> ...


Kozlovsky does sound like an elf, doesn't he? But such an artistic elf that I'm going to dub him my definitive Lenski. Kudos, kudos to his "Kuda, kuda." Martinelli? He will be my definitive tool for eviscerating myself should life become unbearable.

Of "O del mio amato ben," have you heard Muzio's? She was so emotional in everything she sang. Here she was already ill:




 I love Schipa's too - but then I simply love Schipa, that plangent timbre and the way he kisses words and makes them glow like tears in candlelight: 



 McCormack's too is beautifully sung, a little fast I think, and without quite the poignance of Schipa's:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Kozlovsky does sound like an elf, doesn't he? But such an artistic elf that I'm going to dub him my definitive Lenski. Kudos, kudos to his "Kuda, kuda." Martinelli? He will be my definitive tool for eviscerating myself should life become unbearable.
> 
> Of "O del mio amato ben," have you heard Muzio's? She was so emotional in everything she sang. Here she was already ill:
> 
> ...


I think John has poignance to spare, but I don't know why he's in such a tearing hurry!  The others are lovely too. Have you heard Petre Munteanu's? It's absurdly slow, which is a shame as he was a fine and sensitive singer.






I see Gigli also recorded it, but I'm not going there!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I cannot bear singers who quark.


But their Bach is worse than their plight.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I think John has poignance to spare, but I don't know why he's in such a tearing hurry!  The others are lovely too. Have you heard Petre Munteanu's? It's absurdly slow, which is a shame as he was a fine and sensitive singer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never heard of this singer. Beautiful - and absurdly slow. But I forgive him. I've not heard such an exquisite lyric tenor in a long time. (He aspirates _constantly_, however - and so does Gigli, but less subtly ).


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Probably not what was intended when this thread started but...

Kevin Kline, "For he is, he is.... THE Pirate King"






:lol: (I'll let it go soon.)


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

There are quite a few incredible, fantastic performances mentioned in the thread.

But, to me, there is no such thing as a "definitive" performance. Simply, there are too many different parameters in singing, and too many different tastes in the audience, to consider that a single performance is the "definitive" in all these parameters, and for all this people.

Even restricting to one's own taste, in my case it wouldn't work, because I'm a hopeless optimistic guy, and I always think that the next performance will be my favorite one. 

But, on the spirit of the thread, my favorite performance (so far) of Dalila is this one by Hélène Bouvier:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Never heard of this singer. Beautiful - and absurdly slow. But I forgive him. I've not heard such an exquisite lyric tenor in a long time. (He aspirates _constantly_, however - and so does Gigli, but less subtly ).


Strange that I never noticed that flaw in Munteanu's singing, but then I haven't listened to him for a long time. I've never listened to Gigli's record of the song at all, merely observed that it exists- I still haven't recovered from his (late) recording of 'Vaghissima sembianza' yet, and the aspirates are the least of it- he sounds like he's trying to reinvent himself as a crooner!  Ugh. I think the only Gigli record where the aspirates actually add value is 'The Rosary': it's not so much a way of getting from one note to another as being unsure which English words begin with an H, as well as unsure about English vowels generally. Normally it's pretty obnoxious to make fun of a non-native speaker's pronunciation, but this guy somehow always seems like fair game.






:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> *Weber* _Der Freischutz_
> 
> Max: Franz Volker
> 
> ...


what about Loge?


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

These singers for me really became one with the role:

*Otello:* Mario del Monaco
*Carmen:* Julia Migenes (yes, the Carmen film with her is one of things that got me into opera)
*Violetta:* Maria Callas
*Leonora (forza):* Renata Tebaldi
*Calaf:* Franco Corelli
*Isolde:* Kirsten Flagstad
*Werther:* Alfredo Kraus
*Caoni:* Enrico Caruso
*Mefistofele:* Cesare Siepi


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Cesare Impalatore said:


> These singers for me really became one with the role:
> 
> *Otello:* Mario del Monaco
> *Carmen:* Julia Migenes (yes, the Carmen film with her is one of things that got me into opera)
> ...


Who is Caoni?........


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Who is Caoni?........


I don't think that it's this.

http://www.caonichocolate.com/en/


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Who is Caoni?........


take the o and put it on the end and you get "Canio". that's probably who he meant


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> take the o and put it on the end and you get "Canio". that's probably who he meant


Lol, I got there in the end. 

My favourite Vesti la giubba, sung by Emile Scaramberg. Not really enough evidence for his 'definitive' Canio though, which is often the trouble with early recordings:






Also:


















Woodduck said:


> Otello: Lauritz Melchior
> 
> 
> 
> (yes, it's in German, but the voice and the expression will stun you senseless)


Very impressive and moving. 'Dio mi potevi scagliar' is a good choice of excerpt since Tamagno (_my_ definitive Otello) didn't record it, so later Otellos don't get overshadowed by him in quite the same way as with the parts he did record. I took a dislike to Melchior (in general, rather than as Otello) years ago for reasons I can't remember at all (too baritonal/ Wagnerian for me perhaps?) but he's a fine artist and a vastly better singer than I ever gave him credit for, and I'm very happy to have rediscovered him! :tiphat:


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## Cesare Impalatore (Apr 16, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> take the o and put it on the end and you get "Canio". that's probably who he meant


Thanks for correcting that, unfortunately I'm prone to typing errors ...

Canio is Caruso's definitive role for me because it was the best example of his singing style, i.e. becoming one with the character. Caruso's Vesti la giubba has a unique historical significance, too, as it was the first opera related record (and if I'm not mistaken the first record in general) to sell over a million copies. Caruso's Canio had a tremendous influence both artistically and commercially.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Oh yes, I almost forgot: for me Corbelli is Dandini in LA CENERENTOLA. For Magnifico it's a toss-up between Corbelli and Enzo Dara.


Yes! I have seen him play Dandini once as well, I think in the Met's late 90's production with Bartoli and Vargas. What I really meant was Corbelli for all the bass/baritone buffo roles haha. Unfortunately I have never seen or heard Enzo Dara in this role, but I know he does a great Bartolo.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> Cenerentola: Joyce DiDonato


I want to rectify this: I think I prefer Frederica Von Stade as Cenerentola. Her timbre has a certain purity to it that reflects really well the character.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Jussi Björling* and *Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau*.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Camillorf said:


> Yes! I have seen him play Dandini once as well, I think in the Met's late 90's production with Bartoli and Vargas. What I really meant was Corbelli for all the bass/baritone buffo roles haha. Unfortunately I have never seen or heard Enzo Dara in this role, but I know he does a great Bartolo.


Enzo Dara is Don Magnifico in the Houston Grand Opera production on DVD which stars Cecilia Bartoli. Corbelli is a superb Dandini in that same production.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Enzo Dara is Don Magnifico in the Houston Grand Opera production on DVD which stars Cecilia Bartoli. Corbelli is a superb Dandini in that same production.


Sorry, I did mean to say Don Magnifico for Enzo Dara! I don't know what's wrong with me today.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Florestan, in Beethoven's _Fidelio_: Jon Vickers
Elvira, in Bellini's _I Puritani_: Maria Callas
Norma, Bellini: Maria Callas
Medea, Cherubini: Maria Callas
Anna Bolena, Donizetti: Maria Callas
Lucia di Lammermoor, Donizetti: Maria Callas
Andrea Chenier, Giordano: Franco Corelli
Werther, Massenet: Georges Thill
Don Giovanni, Mozart: Cesare Siepi
Gioconda, Ponchielli: Maria Callas
Gianni Schicchi, Puccini: Tito Gobbi
Rudolfo, in Puccini's _La Boheme_: Beniamino Gigli
Minnie, in Puccini's _La Fanciulla del West_: Renata Tebaldi
Scarpia, in Puccini's _Tosca_: Tito Gobbi
Tosca, Puccini: Maria Callas
Calaf, in Puccini's _Turandot_: Franco Corelli
Turandot, Puccini: Birgit Nilsson
Dalila, Saint-Saens: Rise Stevens
Elektra, Strauss: Birgit Nilsson
Don Carlo, Verdi: Franco Corelli
Falstaff, Verdi: Tito Gobbi
Leonora, in Verdi's _Il Trovatore_: Leontyne Price
Manrico, in Verdi's _Il Trovatore_: Franco Corelli
Azucena, in Verdi's _Il Trovatore_: Giulietta Siomionato
Leonora, in Verdi's _La Forza del Destino_: Renata Tebaldi
Violetta, in Verdi's _La Traviata_: Maria Callas
Lady Macbeth, in Verdi's _Macbeth_: Maria Callas
Otello, Verdi: Mario del Monaco
Rigoletto, Verdi: Tito Gobbi
Brunnhilde, from Wagner's _Der Ring des Nibelungen_: Kirsten Flagstad
Ortrud, from Wagner's _Lohengrin_: Margarete Klose
Tannhauser, Wagner: Lauritz Melchior
Isolde, Wagner: Kirsten Flagstad
Tristan, Wagner: Lauritz Melchior


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Dame Joan Sutherland:angel:


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Wolfgang Windgassen in anything


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Ferruccio Furlanetto as King Philip. There are a lot of great basses, past and present, who are also amazing in this role, but Furlanetto IS King Philip.

This is something only Hungarians know, but József Simándy was THE Bánk bán is a way no other singer is. The rolel was part of him for decades.

Leontyne Price is the definitive Leonora for me (both Verdi Leonoras).

Dima was the absolute Onegin. Perfect meeting of singer and role. 

Di Stefano is the best Edgardo for me. 

Robert Lloyd is my all-time favourite Fiesco. Vocally perfect, and very convincing both as a proud, unforgiving jerk and broken old man when he mellows out in the end. 

Matti Salminen is THE Hagen. No rivals.

Gobbi is the definitive Scarpia, of course, and Callas is the one true Tosca.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Lucia: Sutherland
Norma: Callas
Violetta: Callas
Elektra: Nilsson
Brunhilde: CD: Flagstad. Video: G. Jones
Manon: Sills
Arsace: Horne
Semiramide: Sutherland
Esclarmonde: Sutherland
Turandot: Nilsson
Calaf: Corelli
Aida: Price
Radames: Corelli
Orfeo: Ferrier
Carmen: Rise Stevens
Armida: Callas
Isolde: Flagstad


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I don't have so many roles where I think one singers owned it the exclusion of others. There were so many great singers. Still, there are a couple who I think portray the role in such a way that I judge all other singers against them, or even to the point where I have relatively little desire to hear others:

Giorgetta, from _Il tabarro_: Clara Petrella (since Claudia Muzio never recorded it)
Dick Johnson, from _Fanciulla_: Mario Del Monaco (nobody comes close to him in this role; he's titanic)
Siegmund, _Die Walkure_: Lauritz Melchior (ibid)
Santuzza, _Cavalleria Rusticana_: Lina Bruna Rasa (Mascagni thought so too)
Andrea Chenier, _Andrea Chenier_: Mario Del Monaco (though I acknowledge other great Cheniers, like Zanelli, Tamagno etc.)
Charlotte and Werther, _Werther_: Ninon Vallin and Georges Thill (the recording with these two is one of the best there is for any opera)
Dido, _Dido and Aeneas_: Kirsten Flagstad


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

As much as I dislike the term definitive...

Callas in almost everything she sang but especially Norma, Violetta, Medea, Lady Macbeth, Armida and Leonora in *Il Trovatore*, one of her most musically exacting roles.
Janet Baker as Dido (both Berlioz and Purcell)
Vickers as Florestan
Wunderlich as Tamino
Schwarzkopf as the Marschallin, Donna Elvira, Countess Almaviva and Countess Madeleine
De Los Angeles as Manon and Mimi
Gobbi as Scarpia and Rigoletto
Von Stade as Cendrillon
Ponselle as Aida


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Would just add Apollo Granforte as the yardstick for Scarpias on record for me.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

For simplicity, I will only choose singers who have sung the roles reasonably _complete_, so the artist's mastery of the role can be seen/heard, which means live recordings or studio recordings.

*Maria Callas* for *Norma*, *La Sonnambula*, *Medea*, *Anna Bolena*, *Lucia di Lammermoor*, *Cavalleria Rusticana*, *La Gioconda*, *Madama Butterfly*, *Tosca*, *Armida*, *Un Balla in Maschera*, *Macbeth*, *Nabucco*, *Rigoletto*, *La traviata*, *Il Trovatore*, *I Vespri Siciliani*. In these roles I think she has been unsurpassed or because I cant bear to hear anyone else in these roles more than once. 
In three instances in *Il Pirata*, *I Puritani*, and *Carmen*, I can't bear the opera _without_ *Callas*!

*Franco Corelli* for *Callaf*, *Manrico*, *Andrea Chénier*, *Cavaradossi*, *Don Carlo*, *Don Alvaro*, *Radames*, *Enzo Grimaldi*, *Poliuto*, *Pollione*, *Gli Ugonotti*, *Canio*, *Turriddu*.

*Joan Sutherland* for *Donna Anna* in *Don Giovanni* (Giulini 1959); *Esclarmonde*; *Semiramide*

*Marilyn Horne* for *Arsace* in *Semiramide*

*Birgit Nilsson* for *Elektra*; *Turandot*, *Brünhilde* in *Die Walküre*, *Siegfrief* and *Götterdämmerung*.

*Fiorenza Cossotto* for *Azucena* in *Il trovatore*; *Amneris* in *Aida*.

*Edda Moser* for *Die Königin der Nacht* in *Die Zauberflöte*.

*Kiri Te Kanawa* for *La Contessa* in *Le nozze di Figaro*.

*Sandor Konya* for *Lohengrin*.

*Valerie Masterson* for *Cleopatra* in *Julius Cesar* the only opera I coud stand in English translation.

*Rolando Villazon* as *Alfredo* in *La Traviata* because he made me believe he believed everything he sang.


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## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

Baron Ochs: Gunther Groissbock
Tolomeo: Christophe Dumaux
Werther: Jonas Kaufmann


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