# Under the Influence



## Guest (May 14, 2018)

This thread is all about musical influences; about how the work of one composer reveals the influence of another. When we are listening to music we can often think, "this sounds just like Beethoven" - just to make an example. A composer's musical 'fingerprint' (if you like) can sometimes be identifiable and when we understand that we can point to a composition by another composer and say, "Ah yes, he's using this or that from....". Today I was listening to the link I provided in the Conductors thread where Kleiber conducts, from the beginning, "Tristan und Isolde". By the time I had reached about 5 minutes into it I thought of Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5. Let me try and demonstrate, firstly with "Tristan" (from the recording I actually have): say, from 6 minutes - (what INCREDIBLE music!!):






The dying falls, intensity and lush romanticism in "Tristan" are to be found in *Tchaikovsky's Symphony 5* - I believe it wouldn't sound the way it does without the 'influence' of Wagner: from about 37 minutes -






An incredibly INDULGENT performance conducted by Bernstein, which I don't particularly like!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I haven't compared the recordings, but Tchaikovsky was very aware of Wagner's music, far more than I had previously been aware, as Wagner had performed a series of concerts in Saint Petersburg that Tchaikovsky attended: http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Richard_Wagner


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Britten's "Winter Words" are obviously influenced by Schubert's "Winter Journey", but being a British winter it's windier and there's less snow.


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

*Mozart* in his early years was influenced by *Johann Christian Bach (1735-1782* - the youngest son of Johann Sebastian Bach). 
Mozart took the concept of piano concertos from J.C. Bach and his musical idiom in those years was very close to "the London Bach". Some of Mozart's earliest works were arrangements of Johann Christian Bach's music.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> I haven't compared the recordings, but Tchaikovsky was very aware of Wagner's music, far more than I had previously been aware, as Wagner had performed a series of concerts in Saint Petersburg that Tchaikovsky attended: http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Richard_Wagner


and Wagner was influenced by Liszt, Liszt was influenced by Czerny, Czerny was influenced by Beethoven
I wonder where influencing ends and ripping off begins


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## Guest (May 14, 2018)

I really intended for us to actually hear those influences by providing specific musical examples, as in the case of my opening comments.


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## Guest (May 14, 2018)

Jacck said:


> and Wagner was influenced by Liszt, Liszt was influenced by Czerny, Czerny was influenced by Beethoven
> I wonder where influencing ends and ripping off begins


Do you really need an answer to that question with regard to western art music? Williams is derivative, as are a lot of popular composers. I'm not talking about 'derivative' but direct musical influence whilst maintaining the original voice of the newer composer.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

The compositions of Giaches de Wert exerted a strong influence on Monteverdi's mature madrigal style. This influence can be clearly heard in the second and third books of madrigals. One example is the famous 'Ecco mormorar l'onde' from Monteverdi's Second Book of Madrigals (1590), which is modeled on Wert's 'Vezzosi augelli in fra le Verdi frondi' from his Eighth Book of Madrigals.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

In Hummel's piano concerto no 2 he's clearly influenced by Chopin... :devil:


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## Guest (May 15, 2018)

brianvds said:


> In Hummel's piano concerto no 2 he's clearly influenced by Chopin... :devil:


Don't be shy of providing an example or two!! And your avatar looks like Gene Simmons; I presume that was intended!!


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## Guest (May 15, 2018)

@Rick R: terrific example of a composer 'under the influence'. This is just what I was after!! And those complex musical lines - no doubt handed down from the motet.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

brianvds said:


> In Hummel's piano concerto no 2 he's clearly influenced by Chopin... :devil:


Surely, it can only be the other way around. Hummel died when Chopin was 17 and a virtual unknown. Perhaps that's what you meant.


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## Guest (May 16, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Surely, it can only be the other way around. Hummel died when Chopin was 17 and a virtual unknown. Perhaps that's what you meant.


I'd like to hear some examples of that.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Christabel said:


> I'd like to hear some examples of that.


There are several examples: Chopin's Polonaise in A-flat (1821) and Hummel's Polonaise in B-flat Major, Op. 55, "La Bella Capricciosa" a rondo à la polacca (c. 1811-1815); Chopin's Rondo in C Minor, Op. 1 (1825) and Hummel's Sonata in A-flat for Four Hands, Op. 92 (1820); Chopin's Rondo in E-flat Major, Op. 16 (1832) and Hummel's Piano Trio in E Major, Op. 83 (1819); Chopin's Sonata in B Minor, Op. 58 (1844), and Hummel's Sonata in F-sharp Minor, Op. 81 (1819). Hummel's Piano Concertos, especially his A and B Minor Concertos, were a significant influence on Chopin's piano concertos.

Chopin biographer, Frederick Niecks states that "he [Hummel] and Field were, no doubt, those pianists who through the style of their compositions most influenced Chopin" and that "Hummel's concertos were Chopin's model not only as regards structure, but also to a certain extent as regards the character of the several movements."


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