# Talk Classical Opera Convention - a serious idea



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

First of all, let me clarify this again, even thought my title says it.

I. AM. SERIOUS.

No joke, no sarcasm, no parody.

This is a real proposition.

What if we were to organize, say, a 2-3 day encounter of all Talk Classical Opera regulars [that is, those members who have been faithfully posting here day after day or week after week - or whatever frequency suits them - for the last several months/years - or other TC members with more than a passing interest in opera] who are able/willing to make it (time-wise, financially), in an opera-related location such as some hotel in a city with a great opera house?

Given that in July 2012 I'll have the pleasure of meeting in person Sospiro and Mamascarlatti in London (and hopefully, Elgarian and JFlatter at least for a cup of coffee) for the Covent Garden production of _Les Troyens, _and given that in the past we've joked about it with pictures of Sospiro's hometown castle, and some castles in the Loire valley, I was thinking...

WHY NOT?

You know, Trekkies meet by the thousands in their conventions... I do believe that opera is a more interesting topic than Star Trek.

Wouldn't a community that has such outstanding, intelligent, resourceful, and knowledgeable members like ours be able to organize such an encounter, which would surely result in great memories and a great time?

So, here is a serious idea.

It would take several months or years to organize... only a fraction of our members would be able to make it...

But still, it is worth it.

I propose that we all think SERIOUSLY of getting this done.

In principle, I believe that Europe is the ideal location.

If in America, it must of course be New York City. But NYC would probably involve more travel for most people and more expenses than a more central location such as, say, Spain.

We have member schigolch in Spain, it is within easy reach from all locations in Europe, and not too far from the United States. Of course, New Zealand and Australia are far away, but maybe Mamascarlatti and HC (and whoever else is there - Sid is there but I'm not sure that he likes opera this much - of course he'd be welcome to join us) would still be able to make it. Valencia? Madrid? Barcelona?

London, of course, is another possibility, since we have already so many British members such as Sospiro, Elgarian, JFlatter, Polednice, Delicious Manager, others.

How would we organize this?

We'd form a group, count the number of people interested, and contact a mid-range hotel - not too expensive, not too cheap - and try to get a group rate, and a block of reserved rooms. Then each member would contact the reservation line of the hotel, give them the group name/rate, and individually reserve a room under that rate with their personal credit cards. I've done it a number of times for professional encounters, and for sports-related encounters (soccer and rugby tournaments when my son was a high school athlete). It's not that difficult.

Simultaneously, we'd book a major event in the local opera house. We'd buy a chunk of tickets together, as many as interested people.

Opera seasons do not overlap with the high season for tourism. We'd be able to find decent rates for hotels and airplanes (not to forget that in Europe people can get around by less expensive rail).

We could also organize other activities. People would bring their preferred DVDs or blu-rays, and we'd pick a hotel with a minimum of convention capacity - nothing too fancy or expensive, just the ability to use a room with several chairs equipped with a TV and a DVD/blu-ray player. We would be able to screen some operas, watch them together, discuss them. We'd be able to have some lectures/presentations by members, like a power-point presentation from a laptop.

We'd agree on a program with what operas to screen, what talks to present and by whom, what events to attend in town.

And of course, we'd go out, have some fun, have some meals in some communal table in a local convivial, not too cheap, not too expensive restaurant.

Is this naive and over-optimistic?

Not at all. It can be done. It doesn't need to be astronomically expensive. We can plan it for, say, two years from now. People can save some money and block out some time and if we organize it right, we can get a significant number of people to attend. We could elect a committee to look into it, collect suggestions of locations, have the committee members explore the possibilities in the most popular locations, and once we settle for a city, we'd ask the committee (or a different subset of members) to explore the local hotels, etc.

It would be great fun. The first day, we'd have name tags with our Talk Classical ID names. For the second and third days we'd know each other already.

We'd make a weird group. Teenagers, young adults, adults, middle-aged folks, elderly folks... all linked by the passion of opera.

So, here are some questions:

1. Who would be (in principle, at least), interested in attending? Names for a roster (TC IDs, I mean), whether or not a significant other will come, what degree of certainty (people would reply to this by declaring themselves as belonging to one of the following categories):
a) Absolutely certain of attending, wouldn't miss it for anything, will be sure to make personal arrangements around it in order to make attendance 100% possible
b) Very interested in attending and should be able to make it but not 100% certain - between 75% and 90%
c) Good idea, significant interest in attending but attendance would depend on a number of factors (cost, distance, time commitment), about 50% chance of attending
d) Would love to attend but it's somewhat unlikely although still possible - 25% chance of making it.
e) Would consider it and if every piece fell in the right place to make it possible, might go - 10% or 15% possibility
e) No, sorry, wouldn't be able to go or wouldn't be willing to go - zero % possibility.

2. What locations would be suitable? I'll just list some of the main cities equipped with major opera houses:
a) New York City, or other American locations with opera festivals like Santa Fe, Charleston
b) London
c) Valencia, Madrid, or Barcelona
d) Vienna, or Salzburg
e) Milan
f) Paris
g) Berlin, Munich, or Zurich
f) Amsterdam
g) Budapest, or Prague
h) Scandinavian capitals
i) St. Petersburg
j) Others (please suggest)

3) What dates (month, year) would be interesting? Special occasions like Verdi's anniversary? A major opera festival? (although events like Salzburg, Glyndebourne, and especially Bayreuth are too expensive and to difficult to secure tickets for - but maybe a minor regional opera festival?)

4) Volunteers/nominations for Organization Committee (maybe with sub-committees - one for budget/finances/group account/account settings, one for Hotels (location, prices, shared rooms, individual rooms, amenities, convention capabilities, possible travel agencies to help), one for Opera Houses/Seasons/Tickets, one for parallel activities (Restaurants, museums, concerts), one for program (opera screenings, lectures), one for contractual aspects (how to handle fees/down-payments for hotel/convention center bookings, purchase of opera tickets, rental of projection equipment, cancellation and refund policy, etc).

OK, folks, that's it. Please reply, make suggestions, tell us about how committed you'd be to this idea, volunteer to help (some members may have specific expertise in this kind of thing), nominate people, etc.

LET'S MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Here is to the hope that the Talk Classical Opera Convention will soon (one, two years?) become a reality.:cheers:


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I think it's a great idea, Viva! I'm not one of your opera regs but I know some of the folks you mentioned and would love to have a gathering like this. You can count me in. I think your first suggestion of Spain is excellent and Barcelona would probably be better than Madrid (just 'cause I like it better); if not, my second is for The Dam. 

I hope it wouldn't be limited to only opera folk and very much look forward to seeing how this idea progresses.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Count me in Alma & I'd be happy to go anywhere.

My first choice though would be Milan in 2013. Whatever the final choice of venue I plan to go anyway in 2013 & see a Verdi opera at La Scala.

There are places to visit within easy travelling distance, eg Mantova & Bergamo & maybe hire a minibus & go to Busseto. And there's bound to be special events on in 2013 to celebrate the due cento.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Alma, you know I would come if I lived closer. But I don't see myself getting away in 2013 again - it's hard enough to keep the momentum going for 2012.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

*1. Who would be (in principle, at least), interested to attend? Names, whether or not a significant other will come, what degree of certainty (people would reply to this by declaring themselves as belonging to one of the following categories):*

I think it's a good idea, and in principle I will attend the Convention. Within the timeframe we are talking about, I'd say I'm a b).

*2. What locations would be suitable? I'll just list some of the main cities equipped with major opera houses:*

To me the ideal location must be as central as possible, easily reachable, with a major Opera House and with as many TC Opera regulars living in close proximity as possible.

That will be London, in my view.

*3) What dates (month, year) would be interesting? Special occasions like Verdi's anniversary? A major opera festival? (although events like Salzburg, Glyndebourne, and especially Bayreuth are too expensive and to difficult to secure tickets - but maybe a minor regional opera festival?)*

This is the most difficult part. If we settle on London, we could look at the 2012-2013 season and choose a weekend, preferably in Spring or Summer.

*4) Volunteers/nominations for Organization Committee*

Count on me to help in any capacity.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

If it were NYC, I'd be 75%+ certain of attending. Europe, much less likely as my finances aren't really in a position to allow me to spend $1000+ on a 2-3 day holiday, no matter how pleasant. If it must be Europe, then Amsterdam would be my first choice, as I have friends there and could stretch out my trip to a week or more, allowing me to justify the expense more easily. That said, I'd put even an Amsterdam trip at only about 25% likelihood.
I'd be happy to help out in any way possible, such as arranging hotel packages and planning the itinerary / setting things up.

Of course, if this does end up happening one essential activity will be an evening at the hotel where, with a PS3, the game Singstar, and the Opera add-on pack, we can horrify each other with opera karaoke


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Two years from now, you say? Then feel free to meet at the premiere of my first opera.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Some thoughts:-

(1) Member schigolch made an especially agreeable point in that meetings of this sort could best coincide with some festival/public event, in addition to meeting up privately with fellow members as organised by ourselves. I have been involved a couple of times with such meetings, which because of the nature of the event (e.g. a grand touring of motor cars, where we drove to specific locations together because of some motoring event, as well as the pleasure of meeting fellow members), simply enhances the overall purpose and pleasure of the meeting with a dual purpose. This also provides a break from each other, given that in real life, meetings like these can at times be a little awkward given the very different locations and time zones we are convering to from home. I'm just being pragmatic.

(2) 2013 is a long way away but in principle, a very good idea to stretch it out from today.

(3) I would be a (c) - even chance of attending versus not attending. I simply cannot tell what could be happening then.

(4) Location, I'm flexible. So long as it is perceived safe and no wars going on.  Somewhere in Europe might be preferred given there is likely to be more things happening, so we assume.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Good, good, just a few hours of this thread being up and we have already members who are fully committed to attending, as well as members who say it is highly possible for them or at least 50%, one member saying 25% to 75% depending on location. I'm one of the people who would say "a" or 100% certainty. Two members have offered the ability to help with organizing things (and I'd add my name to those as well). Very good start!

Cities mentioned so far have included London, NYC, Barcelona, Milan, Amsterdam. Let's allow the idea/thread to evolve some more, and later we'll start putting the options to a vote.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

at kv466 - I believe the focus must be opera; it's an idea from the TC opera forum/community - but of course other TC members are welcome to join, especially those who have a more than passing interest in opera.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Do we have any member living in Barcelona, Milan or Amsterdam?. I think it will be better if we have at least one guy on the ground to help organize things.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't know about Barcelona and certainly not Milan, but I do think that there is someone in Amsterdam, no? We do have members in New York City, London, and cough cough that world class opera destination, North Carolina.:lol: Also we have a member in Belgium and several members in Scandinavian countries. But I believe the highest density is in London, where we even have a member who is a professional in the area (Delicious Manager) although he hasn't replied yet.

I believe that London has the highest member density, followed by New York City especially if we consider places at easy reach from New York City (Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina).

At sospiro: while Verdi's anniversary in 2013 is very tempting, we'd run into competition for rooms, tickets, etc., making the organization much more complex and prices much more expensive. Most likely only a professional travel agency would be able to get a large group into the festivities.

Although, it's not excluded that the wisest course of action is indeed to contract a travel agency with experience in opera tours (there are many that advertise on the Opera News Magazine and maybe we should submit some consultations - I'd volunteer to do such a thing once we are closer to settling for a date and place).

Another thought: having someone on site is highly desirable of course, but ultimately not entirely required, given that these days the Internet and fax machines can do much of the work in terms of looking things up, signing contracts, etc. I've organized relatively large meetings involving group reservations, programming, outings, etc., exclusively through the Internet, the phone, and a fax machine.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

Alma, that's a great idea!
Count me in! I'm a b). And I also think the best place is London. I believe that London has good (and also cheap) flight connections.

It would be great in late spring or summer. Thinking of summer - another possibility is Muncher Opernfestspiele. It depends on performances, doesn't?

Anyway, I'm not sure if I could wait soooo long. What about next week? 
But seriously, if Natalie is coming to London in 2012 ...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

London 2012 is very tempting given that Natalie will be there, but I'm afraid that it is a bit too late to organize the real big convention... but maybe not. It would also be difficult to secure tickets for Covent Garden for a large group at short notice. Apparently sospiro has had enough trouble securing tickets for the four of us (herself, Mr. and Mrs. Almaviva, Natalie).

Still, who knows, if we go through a travel agency that has a blocked number of tickets... worth looking into.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm in! Maybe, depending on location and moneys. Somewhere in Europe would of course be preferable, and although Oslo probably won't be an option, I'll suggest Copenhagen. It's somewhat close to both Berlin and Stockholm (and Oslo as well, for that matter), and the house itself is rather good.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I would be the following in terms of probability (in 2013):

b) Seattle
c) New York, or other US
d) London or Europe
e) Russia/Asia/Australia

For the cost of flights (and the fact that I've never been) I'd be compelled to make d and e part of a longer 1 or 2 week trip. d) and e) would definitely be upgraded for something truly spectacular (cough cough a summer 2013 one-week bicentennial Ring Cycle)


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, the location of the Copenhagen Opera House is fantastic.

But, given this is an Opera fan meetings, I'd think it would be better to look for a more top class House in terms of the singing quality. Just take a look at the casts for Trovatore or Tosca:

Josep Fadó, Manrico
Dominic Natoli, Manrico
Lars Fosser, Luna
Robert Hyman, Luna
Yana Kleyn, Leonora
Lina Valantiejute, Leonora
Yvonne Howard, Azucena
Katja Lytting, Azucena
Stephen Richardson, Ferrando

Gitta-Maria Sjöberg, Tosca
Anne Margrethe Dahl, Tosca
Stuart Neill, Cavaradossi
Andrew Richards, Cavaradossi
Jean-Pierre Furlan, Cavaradossi
John Lundgren, Scarpia
Christopher Robertson, Scarpia
Anoosha Golesorkhi, Scarpia


We do want this to be an experience to remember, right?. So I'd say this means a major Opera House. In my view that means (in Europe) London, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Milan, Brussels, Amsterdam, Zürich, Madrid, Barcelona,... There could be an interesting performance in other places, of course, but we can maximize our opportunities in the major theaters. Or a big Opera festival: Szalburg, Verona, Glyndebourne, Munich,...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Though I know that my presence would scare off everyone and make you prepare alternative meeting in secret I have nothing better to do so I'll fill the questionaire. 

1: c), I'm always ready to go somewhere for no good reason and though I wouldn't travel just in order to see internet elephants to some uninteresting place on it's own right, I could gladly use pretext of such event to visit some important venue related to classical music. 

2: Like I said, any attractive place would be fine - I always wanted to go to Paris, Milano, Vienna. My presence would be absoutely excluded if it would happen in America and very unlikely if on Bristish Isles or Spain, though wait, I was close to moving to Scotland recently and this perspective still hangs over me, it could change thing or two. But I hope it won't happen. 

3: No preference.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

This sounds like a fantastic idea, although it might be somewhat impractical.
Another excellent classical music forum which I frequent is *********.
They have already had a few meet ups in New York , and I've gone to two of them, but this is for any members of the forum and guests, not just a meeting for opera fans.
***************. Our meetings so far have been at some excellent restaurants in Manhattan,
and we all just paid for a collective dinner. They were wonderful meetings, and every one had a great time ! One guest there was the grand daughter of the great pianist Artur Schnabel !


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Hey Alma, you big meanie, even if I can't get a ticket for the opera, I'm coming to London next year!


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

Great idea, but I do think you must be thinking of 2013 at the earliest.

2012--London is out just because the Olympics are in London; and I know some of us are already trying to get there before the Olympics but tickets to the ROH are I'm told very difficult to come by for the great productions (not the ones put on for tourists). I would add that (for the northern hemisphere) airline fares are considerably more expensive in the summer. 

In fact I have always found it cheapest to travel in November or February--the weather is terrible but if you're going to be in an opera house most nights anyway? and museums are always there.

Festivals are in the summer though, except for Salzburg? (Easter)

I am certainly interested but 2013 is a bit difficult to make a firm commitment. I would vote for London or New York. I've also heard that festivals are difficult to get tickets for...so I think this is why the opera travel services stay in business.

Put me down as a 50% chance of going, depending on where it is and what happens in my life between now and then. I may be in debtor's prison by then!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I've ordered tickets for three operas during the Munich Opera Festival next year. I don't have priority booking & will have to wait until the public booking opens in February to see if I get the tickets I've asked for.

I did really well this year for the two performances of _L'elisir d'amore_. Second row front stalls for the first performance & the very front row for the second. And half the price of similar tickets at ROH.

One other attraction of Munich Festival is the free screening of one of the operas. Like Fidelio this year.

I'll let you know how I get on.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

sospiro said:


> I've ordered tickets for three operas during the Munich Opera Festival next year. I don't have priority booking & will have to wait until the public booking opens in February to see if I get the tickets I've asked for.
> 
> I did really well this year for the two performances of _L'elisir d'amore_. Second row front stalls for the first performance & the very front row for the second. And half the price of similar tickets at ROH.
> 
> ...


I have a similar story. I got tickets without problem. But it's true that I made a booking quite early (in September or October).


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I think this is a wonderful idea, but given the uncertainty of my situation two years down the road, I would put my chances of going at just 25%. But I will follow the plan with interest, especially if things start to look more hopeful for me.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

ooopera said:


> I have a similar story. I got tickets without problem. But it's true that I made a booking quite early (in September or October).


Wow! You can order tickets for that already? I know a certain Bavarian tenor is going to do a liederabend of _Winterreise_ on, I think, July 18, but I have February 1 marked down as when tickets go on sale. I was thinking about trying to add Munich on to my London trip but that would add up to 3 weeks if I'm there on July 1st and my bosses don't like us to take long vacations--not to mention that I will be missing a week of important meetings at work anyway. Of course, in addition to debtor's prison I might be out of a job by then if this keeps up!

ETA: Ok, I just looked on the BSO website and see that you can place orders (kind of like Bayreuth, which I also tried this year thinking that by the time I get tickets--10 years?--JK might be singing there again...) now. And holy cow, Joyce DiDonato and Simon Keenlyside are also having recitals. Wow. Maybe I should wait until I win the lottery and plan a separate trip to the Munich festival...


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

The idea sounds appealing, but as much as I'd like to meet other TC opera lovers, I'd probably have about a 25% chance of attending if it were in London or NYC. (One trip flying in and out of Milan's Malpensa airport was enough for me, thank you.) Now that I'm retired, I'm being a litle more careful with my spending. And, let's face it, any large city with a good international airport and major opera house is likely to have a fairly high cost of living. A "bargain" in Manhattan would probably be considered rather expensive in many parts of the Midwest outside of Chicago or Detroit.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Zürich often record their productions. It would be quite cool if we attended an opera which was later released as a DVD. 

But hotels are very expensive. You can get cheaper ones in the 'red light' district ... so I'm told.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Zürich often record their productions. It would be quite cool if we attended an opera which was later released as a DVD.
> 
> But hotels are very expensive. You can get cheaper ones in the 'red light' district ... so I'm told.


Switzerland is ridiculously expensive, even from a Norwegian point of view.
Has anyone suggested Vienna? If not, I am.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

sospiro said:


> But hotels are very expensive. You can get cheaper ones in the 'red light' district ... so I'm told.


Come on, out with it. There's a story there you're just dying to tell.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Aksel said:


> Switzerland is ridiculously expensive, even from a Norwegian point of view.


I'll trust you on this one but I can't cofrim from my own experience. When I called president of Switzerland last time and asked how much he wants for his country he didn't want to reply. It's pretty obvious that it would be expensive though. Ridiculously? I don't think it's possible, they can't overestimate value of their landscapes and stuff. Anyway, if you will need just a little bit more to buy Switzerland let me know and we'll buy it together.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Come on, out with it. There's a story there you're just dying to tell.


:lol:

Wish there was. My lovely Polish bass Lukas Jakobski is joining the Zürich Opera next year & I've been checking out hotels near the opera house. Had a bit of a shock when I saw the prices so I contacted a friend who I know has been. She'd found a cheap hotel in the 'red light' district & said it was perfectly OK.

If you're neither a 'service provider' nor a 'service user' you'll be fine.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Obviously London would be a perfect destination for me. I have just received the latest edition of About the House magazine (ROH friends and patrons publication). The new Director of the Royal Opera, Kasper Holten, says next seasons details will be released in March 2012. In it he says that he plans to be directing a piece next season. I am sure Alma will fly over for that.:devil:

If we did not do London, then I think that Brussels maybe a good idea. They generally have good productions and I think that their prices are reasonable too. Although Brussels isn't the prettiest city in Europe it generally does have good deals on hotel accommodation at the weekends, as the Euro business people clear off.

Other than that Paris or Berlin would be my preferences.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Sounds like fun! I'm not really an opera regular, or anything close... but I just started getting into opera a few months ago, so in 2 years I very well might be. If it was in NYC I'd probably be able to attend. If it wasn't, I probably wouldn't be able to. Good luck with it though and keep the rest of us posted!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aramis said:


> I'll trust you on this one but I can't cofrim from my own experience. When I called president of Switzerland last time and asked how much he wants for his country he didn't want to reply. It's pretty obvious that it would be expensive though. Ridiculously? I don't think it's possible, they can't overestimate value of their landscapes and stuff. Anyway, if you will need just a little bit more to buy Switzerland let me know and we'll buy it together.


Buy now and they'll throw in Liechtenstein at half price!


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## AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (May 9, 2011)

frankly, i'm saving money for college, two years down the line i'll be in the THICK of college, and even so, i'll likely have so many projects to juggle that I couldn't lose the few days. 

but I mean if its a Wagner-centric kind of thing i can't say no!!! hahah i'm kiddin. mostly. 

put me down as an "e) 10-15%", much more likely if it ends up being NYC.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk said:


> but I mean if its a Wagner-centric kind of thing i can't say no!!! hahah i'm kiddin. mostly.


2013 Melbourne Ring anyone? I'm going to that even if I have to sell the kids.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> 2013 Melbourne Ring anyone? I'm going to that even if I have to sell the kids.


Sell now and they'll throw in Liechtenstein at half price!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm not a player for obvious reasons (not a big opera fan by any means, as well as other reasons) but since I've been involved on the sidelines of organising conferences, etc. I'd strongly advice for you Almaviva to form a planning committee with some of the members here & doing meetings via skype, etc. That would kind of nut out the details & then you could get back to those who are keen to take part here on the forum (eg. provide updates, whatever). I think it's a good idea & I hope it comes to fruition, it would obviously be very rewarding, engaging, etc. for you opera-lovers here & that's the point of music, isn't it, to bring people together? Anyway, it's a good initiative, imo, but will require some solid planning as these things always do...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Darn, I composed a long message, hit the wrong button, and lost it. Here I go again.

Lots of interest, lots of cities suggested. Let me list the ones suggested so far.

NYC
London
Brussels
Zürich
Munich
Salzburg
Paris
Milan
Vienna
Berlin
Amsterdam
Verona
Glyndebourne
Madrid
Barcelona
Copenhagen
Seattle

In my initial post I had suggested a few more, which didn't get a second mention by other members:

Valencia
Santa Fe
Charleston
St.Petersburg
Budapest
Prague

Please, European friends, help me organize this city list in three groups, first, regarding hotels, meals, transportation (we'll think of opera ticket prices later): very expensive, average, less expensive.

For the American cities, I'd say:

Very expensive: New York City
Average: Seattle
Less expensive: Santa Fe, Charleston

Please add the European cities to these categories.

Next, let's think of cost of opera tickets. I hear that Glyndebourne is prohibitively expensive. The Metropolitan Opera House has tickets in all possible price ranges, from $25 for standing room to $400 and more. Festivals like Santa Fe and the Spoletto Festival in Charleston are reasonably priced. I have no idea about prices in Seattle. European friends, please shed some light on this for your cities.

Next, there is the year.

2012
2013
2014

I favor 2013.

Next, month of the year.

Of course, regular opera house seasons go from the fall to the spring in most places. Some cities like St.Petersburg have almost year-round opera with dozens and dozens of productions. Budapest has some 34 productions per year. Berlin, Vienna, Salzburg also have dozens and dozens of productions. New York has about 27 productions per year at the Met, but many more in other companies (there are 11 currently active opera companies in New York City - but of course cast for other companies is never as star-studded as the Met and quality varies).

Then, we need to consider concerts, opera company tours, recitals. These are a lot more common in the summer (which also means higher tourism costs).

Finally, we need to think of festivals.

Salzburg has a small program in late May, and a long program in July/August.
Charleston Spoleto USA festival runs from Mid-May through Mid-June (a great time for costs) - and Charleston is a lovely city.
Santa Fe festival is in July
Verona is throughout the entire summer, late June through early September.
Glyndebourne is late May through late August

There are other festivals to consider: Glimmerglass, Bregenz, Budapest Spring Festival, Munich, Ravenna, Baden-Baden... 
Oh well, there is Bayreuth but that one we know we won't make given the 10-year waiting list and the Wagner Society part, so let's not even talk about it.

Please, new people joining this thread, continue to reply regarding interest and likelihood of attendance.

Please, people already considering the idea, start mentioning your preferences regarding year, month, festivals vs. regular seasons...

In general, by dividing things in thirds, we'll foster a discussion on whether we want a major destination with a major opera house and/or a major festival (like NYC, London, Glyndebourne, Salzburg) which will result in higher costs and competition for tickets, versus a more humble destination that would be less expensive and more available like Budapest (particularly cheap), Brussels, Verona, Charleston, etc.

Once more discussion takes place and things narrow down a little, I'll call a vote of top 5 choices - by order of preference - for cities/festivals (in some cases we may have to specify regular season vs. festival for the city vote, like for Salzburg and Budapest, which are both cities with numerous opera productions in regular season + a festival), attribute 5 points to a person's first choice, 4 to a second choice, etc., and then publish the score for each city. This will be ideally done several days from now when more members get an opportunity to learn about this and weigh in.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sid James said:


> I'm not a player for obvious reasons (not a big opera fan by any means, as well as other reasons) but since I've been involved on the sidelines of organising conferences, etc. I'd strongly advice for you Almaviva to form a planning committee with some of the members here & doing meetings via skype, etc. That would kind of nut out the details & then you could get back to those who are keen to take part here on the forum (eg. provide updates, whatever). I think it's a good idea & I hope it comes to fruition, it would obviously be very rewarding, engaging, etc. for you opera-lovers here & that's the point of music, isn't it, to bring people together? Anyway, it's a good initiative, imo, but will require some solid planning as these things always do...


Sure, that's why I have proposed committees and sub-committees in my OP, but for now I'm just testing the waters, getting people's preferences and likelihood of attendance, etc. But yes, once we start to settle for cities and dates, we'll need people willing to concretely explore possibilities, under the format of a committee. Good idea for skype teleconferences.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^ I'm sorry, I read your OP a day or two ago (when it was posted), so I forgot about your mention of sub-committees, etc. My memory is not the best. Anyway, as I said it's a good idea & I think realistic, you just have to coordinate things, etc. & it will get off the ground...


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Perhaps you should make a group Almaviva? Interested people can join, we can keep the relevant discussions more organized in their own individual threads? And possibly, put a sticky on this forum directing people to the group. We could also make good use of the photos feature and in the group description have an up-to-date summary of the plan, what is in stone, what is tentative, etc. as we decide it.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> Perhaps you should make a group Almaviva? Interested people can join, we can keep the relevant discussions more organized in their own individual threads? And possibly, put a sticky on this forum directing people to the group. We could also make good use of the photos feature and in the group description have an up-to-date summary of the plan, what is in stone, what is tentative, etc. as we decide it.


That's interesting Couchie but groups do have a few limitations... no ability to reply with quote, smaller field, less flexibility to edit/merge, no ability to make polls, etc. And worse, less visibility as new posts don't get to non-group member's lists, so, we might never be found by potentially interested people even with the sticky. So I'd rather continue here for a while more and once things get a bit more defined, then sure, setting up a group will make it easier in terms of coordinating committees, getting details, etc., at which point all interested members will join the group and remove this discussion from the radar of members who are not interested.


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

I love this idea!
I vote NY because it seems like a lot of members are there or have been there. So if NY I'd be in 100%. I'd love to go _anywhere_ in Europe really but I'd have a, mmm 60% chance of making it, if I'm being optimistic (and when am I not).
I think 2013 should be the earliest. I'd be in school but with enough time and notice I can put away some money and make arrangements with teachers. 
Wow so if this comes to fruition and you think you can put up with me I'm there!!


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Thinking about it more, I'm almost certain that it'd be NYC or nothing for me.

NYC advantages:
-lots of productions at the Met -- with decent timing we could easily see 2 or 3 different operas in the span of just a few days. And virtually every production will have at least one (and likely more) singers that one would be extremely excited to see
-Lots of extra-curricular activities -- at least three world-class museums just a short subway or taxi ride away from one another
-Language - virtually everyone here speaks (or writes, as the case may be) fluent English. While this isn't an insurmountable problem, I found out for myself how much of a difference there is between being mediocre in a language and being completely illiterate, when visiting France and Germany respectively.

Disadvantages:
-NYC is expensive (though, speaking purely out of self-interest, it would be far less expensive than a Europe trip)
-weather - cold in winter, can get hot and humid in the summer
-those from non-VWP (visa waiver program) countries face a significant hurdle to getting into the US
-Europe is a hell of a lot cooler of a destination than the United States

In any event, a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation pegs a 4 day NYC trip with 2-3 operas at about $2000 for me (assuming we stay at an inexpensive hotel, ~$150 / night which is cheap indeed for Manhattan), with Europe being $1000+ on top of that. Winter months would be preferable for me as it will keep the costs down.

tldr: my vote goes to a 2012/13 late fall / winter NYC trip. For anyone who is interested, here's the projected 2012/13 Met season: http://parterre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/brad_cache.pdf

As an alternate option, if there is enough interest on both sides of the pond perhaps there could be separate Europe / US conventions, which would provide a somewhat local option for those of us in the 99%, and would allow the wealthier here the option of attending whichever appealed more to them, or even both 

e: if we were to end up going that route, I'd think other US cities to include as possibilities would be Chicago, Houston, and SF, all of which have fine opera houses. SF is probably as expensive as NYC, Chicago a bit less, Houston probably a bit cheaper than Chicago. I lived in Chicago for several years (though never attended the Lyric) so could probably assist quite a bit with planning in that eventuality.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> As an alternate option, if there is enough interest on both sides of the pond perhaps there could be separate Europe / US conventions, which would provide a somewhat local option for those of us in the 99%, and would allow the wealthier here the option of attending whichever appealed more to them, or even both
> 
> e: if we were to end up going that route, I'd think other US cities to include as possibilities would be Chicago, Houston, and SF, all of which have fine opera houses. SF is probably as expensive as NYC, Chicago a bit less, Houston probably a bit cheaper than Chicago. I lived in Chicago for several years (though never attended the Lyric) so could probably assist quite a bit with planning in that eventuality.


Very interesting. I had thought of it, but decided to first propose one single convention for everybody, to see first who would want to attend a single global one.

But if too many people from the US/Canada say they can't travel to Europe or Europeans can't come here, then it may make sense to have separate conventions.

I thought that proposing separate conventions upfront would actually sabotage the possibility of truly meeting the across-the-pond folks since people would be more likely to restrain themselves to their side of the pond.

But if push comes to shove, then we should do it.

Regarding costs in Houston, Chicago, SanFran, New York City, etc., I'd insist in proposing Charleston or Santa Fe - smaller cities, much less expensive, both great touristic destinations, and both with interesting opera festivals. Or maybe Glimmerglass.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> That's interesting Couchie but groups do have a few limitations... no ability to reply with quote, smaller field, less flexibility to edit/merge, no ability to make polls, etc. And worse, less visibility as new posts don't get to non-group member's lists, so, we might never be found by potentially interested people even with the sticky. So I'd rather continue here for a while more and once things get a bit more defined, then sure, setting up a group will make it easier in terms of coordinating committees, getting details, etc., at which point all interested members will join the group and remove this discussion from the radar of members who are not interested.


All good points. Even if we continue discussion here for some time it may be advantageous to make this group though and "collect" the serious members to filter them from the curious people just poking around in the thread, and have a preliminary numbers figure to work with.

I also propose a poll (or a better variation on it);

Format: Multiple choice, voting once for each of the 3 questions, public votes:
Q1: Location
Q2: Interest level
Q3: Willingness/capability of intercontinental travel

Options:

Q1: United Kingdom
Q1: Continental Western Europe
Q1: Eastern Europe and Asia
Q1: Eastern USA & Canada
Q1: Western USA & Canada
Q1: Australia & Oceania

Q2: 100%
Q2: 75%
Q2: 50%
Q2: <25%

Q3: Willing to make transoceanic flights
Q3: Not willing to make transoceanic flights


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Thinking practically, I am likely only going to be able to come to any event that's in the UK, purely because I have no job and can't afford much travelling! Perhaps if it was in a Western European country it might be feasible, but otherwise not. Of course, I don't expect people to come to London just so they can be with me! 

_If_ it were to be held in the UK, I could almost certainly come - year and month would not be a problem, because London is only an hour (or two, depending on whether it's term time) away from home.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I'm wide open,...anytime, anyplace...no organizing for me as I have organized one to many conventions and it is a lot of work but mainly because I'm not the opera buff...sure, I've attended many and love many more but just the same, my main intent is to meet some of my buddies and some others whose posts I enjoy very much and simply haven't had the chance to meet.

I look forward to seeing what ya'll come up with; I just hope it's not Australia because, well...I have certain visions for my first time there and this is not one of them. As I've been throughout Europe, the least place I'd wanna go is Milan and that is only because I've been there six times but I guess that also means that I love the city very much; I do! Besides, I wouldn't mind attending yet another performance at Teatro alla Scala! So again, anywhere and anytime...as soon as it is all worked out you can expect me to be at the meeting place; with Cuban pastelitos for everyone!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Why did they block the name of the other classical music forum I'm on? What harm could there be in mentioning it ?


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

superhorn said:


> Why did they block the name of the other classical music forum I'm on? What harm could there be in mentioning it ?


Hey, Horn...do you really not get why? Do you like them better? It's really a simple matter.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Why did they block the name of the other classical music forum I'm on? What harm could there be in mentioning it ?


Superhorn, I'm sorry, buddy, but I did mention the reason on the edit field. I fully know that you meant well; still, I can't help but follow the Terms of Service I'm sworn to uphold. They state that soliciting traffic to a similar web site is not allowed. While, again, I'm quite sure that "soliciting" is too heavy a word to apply to your post, you did recommend that people visit that site and touted its advantages, which unfortunately is not allowed by our Terms of Service, which I didn't create but must enforce, so please, don't shoot the messenger. I liked your contribution and appreciated it, but I can't let it stand for the above reasons. Again, sorry, and please don't be turned off by it, and continue to participate! Best, Alma.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie, I'll propose a vote but will be both more specific (separating it by cities) and will group some of your ideas into one (by recommending that people don't vote for transoceanic cities if they are unwilling to fly there).

OK, let's do some formal voting. I'm including ALL cities that were suggested at least once by any member above. I'm adding Pesaro for the Rossini festival, I just thought of it. No city from Asia was proposed, and only one from Oceania was proposed.

I can't do this through a poll, there are many options, and a poll wouldn't allow us to grant more points to cities ranked higher in the voter's preferrence.

We can do it just like we did for the list of recommended DVDs - from a list, we pick our preferred ones.

*Let's say, top 10, by order of preference. If you don't have 10 cities that you would consider visiting, stop before 10. This means, if you're not willing to take a transoceanic flight, don't vote for any cities across the ocean from you. If your likelihood of attending is only high enough in certain cities, stop there, don't vote for others you would be highly unlikely to travel to. If you prefer a festival, vote higher for cities that have festivals. If you prefer regular season, vote higher for those that don't have a festival (Budapest, Munich and Salzburg are exceptions since they have both regular seasons and festivals - but if they win, we'll consult the members again on whether they want to attend their festivals or go at some other time). Choice 1 gets 10 points, choice 10 gets 1 point.*

The nominated cities are:

NYC - season
London - season
Brussels - season
Zürich - season
Munich - season and festival
Salzburg - season and festival
Paris - season
Milan - season
Vienna - season 
Berlin - season
Amsterdam - season
Verona - festival
Glyndebourne - festival
Madrid - season
Barcelona - season
Copenhagen - season
Seattle - season
Valencia - season
Santa Fe - festival
Charleston - festival
St.Petersburg - season
Budapest - season and festival
Prague - season
Glimmerglass - festival
Bregenz - festival
Ravenna - festival
Baden-Baden - festival
Chicago - season
San Francisco - season
Houston - season
Pesaro - festival
Melbourne - season (Ring)

*Question 1*
Rank your preferred cities among the above, by order of preference, up to 10 choices

*Question 2*
Vote for: a) 2012, b) 2013, or c) 2014. You can vote for up to two options.

*Question 3*
Next, please vote for: a) Spring or Fall (off-peak travel/hotel) b) Summer (peak travel/hotel) c) Winter d) Any season, would attend anyway regardless of time of the year if everything else is good. You can vote for up to two between a, b, and c, or vote d if you'd attend in any season.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

My votes:

*Question 1*
Rank your preferred cities among the above, by order of preference, up to 10 choices

1 - NYC - season
2 - Paris - season
3 - Vienna - season 
4 - Charleston - festival
5 - Santa Fe - festival
6 - Budapest - season and festival
7 - London - season
8 - Milan - season
9 - Valencia - season
10 - Bregenz - festival

*Question 2*
b) 2013

*Question 3*
d) Any season, would attend anyway regardless of time of the year if everything else is good.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

This is so exciting!
It's going to be one hell of a logistical task but thank you Alma for suggesting the idea :clap:

*Question 1*

1. Milan - season
2. Munich - season and festival
3. NYC - season
4. London - season
5. Zürich - season
6. Barcelona - season
7. Paris - season
8. Seattle - season
9. Salzburg - season and festival
10. Amsterdam - season

*Question 2*

1. c) 2014
2. b) 2013

*Question 3 *

a) and b)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Oops, I'm changing my vote, I just remembered that summer 2014 is the FIFA World Cup. I better vote for 2013 only.
@sospiro - I didn't include winter because usually there is very little opera going on in most major houses. Edit - oops, what am I thinking? I'm thinking Christmas/New Year time, but of course winter is longer than that and there is opera in November, January... so I'm putting winter back. Still able to do it since only the two of us have voted, I've edited both our posts to make them compatible with the new option.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Oops, I'm changing my vote, I just remembered that summer 2014 is the FIFA World Cup. I better vote for 2013 only.


Will you be in Brazil to see some of the matches?



Almaviva said:


> @sospiro - I didn't include winter because usually there is very little opera going on in most major houses.


There is at ROH and Munich



Edit - just seen your edit!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Will you be in Brazil to see some of the matches?


Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Question 1
1. NYC
2. Chicago
3. Seattle
4. San Francisco
5. London
6. Paris
7. Milan

^ Preference for these European cities, but would be willing to consider others.

Question 2
b) 2013

Question 3
a) Spring or Fall
b) Summer

In my opinion we should stay away from c) Winter as much as possible as the logistics are tricky enough without the substantially higher risk of flight delays and cancellations in winter.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Oops, I'm changing my vote, I just remembered that summer 2014 is the FIFA World Cup. I better vote for 2013 only.


You, now Alms, I hadn't thought of that but I've already got solid plans for being in Brazil and I will be at a few of the competitions thanks to a long time Brazilian friend of mine who has organized everything and included me in everything. So,...the only problem I might have had has now been resolved. Go U.S.A.! If not Netherlands as I am not so sure Perú will be involved,...yet again........................................................


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

1:

Vienna - season
Milan - season
Paris - season
Berlin - season
Zürich - season

Question 2

a) 2012

Question 3:

Depens on part of the world, summer in Madrid is quite diffrent from summer in St. Petersburg, isn't it? Or winter - in Madrid it's nice, in Russia it will make you understand why Napoleon was lost in 1812. I'm all for spring generally though.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

My choices:

*Question 1*
- Charleston (I've never been there; would love to see this city; the timing of the festival shouldn't conflict with my local opera company's season, which runs mid-June until late July)
- Chicago (Been many times, but love this city -- and the Allegro Hotel offers discounts to guests attending Lyric Opera performances. I'd opt for Fall or Spring, as winter in the Windy City can get rather unpleasant.)
- Houston (Never been there, and would enjoy seeing a new city. Would recommend dates in Winter, as local weather will probably be at its mildest and most pleaant.)

*Question 2*
2013 or 2014

*Question 3*
Provided these answers with the list of preferred locations, since the time I'd recommend depends upon the location.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

1.- London - season
2.- Paris - season
3.- Berlin - season
4.- Madrid - season
5.- Barcelona - season
6.- Vienna - season 
7.- Milan - season
8.- Amsterdam - season
9.- Brussels - season
10.- Zürich - season


2013

Any season


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

(Musing)... wonder if this thread would be more suitable for Area 51...

My two choices would naturally be New York and Chicago. On the issue of budgeting, especially for New York, there are lots of reasonably-priced hotels on the other side of the (Hudson) River in N Jersey, if that's a concern. [It typically is for me.] There is generally excellent (by American standards) rail service into NYC. Rooming up, of course, could trim costs even more.

If in New York, I could provide limited "shuttle service" on my side of the River. 
If in Chicago, it could possibly be a little more extensive, since driving into that city is quite a bit less frightening that driving in Manhattan.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

London - season
Munich - season and festival
Vienna - season
Paris - season
Berlin - season
Milan - season
Amsterdam - season
Zürich - season
Madrid - season
Barcelona - season

Question 2
b) 2013

Question 3
d) Any season


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> (Musing)... wonder if this thread would be more suitable for Area 51...
> 
> My two choices would naturally be New York and Chicago. On the issue of budgeting, especially for New York, there are lots of reasonably-priced hotels on the other side of the (Hudson) River in N Jersey, if that's a concern. [It typically is for me.] There is generally excellent (by American standards) rail service into NYC. Rooming up, of course, could trim costs even more.
> 
> ...


CTP, to complete your vote, what year would you prefer (2012, 12, 14), and what time of the year (fall/spring, summer, winter)?
About Area 51 - We're not giving away here any info that hackers could use, we're just doing general planning. Opera convention, therefore opera forum, with enough visibility to catch all interested members. Once things get better defined, we'll move the discussion into a social group, invitation only.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Partial results - so far, Paris has the lead, and if the vote ended now, we'd go to Paris in the spring or fall of 2013. New York City and London are in hot pursuit. Milan and Vienna complete the top 5.

Have voted so far: Almaviva, sospiro, Aramis, MAuer, Schigolch, Couchie, CTP, ooopera.

Keep voting, folks!

Amsterdam - season 8
Baden-Baden - festival
Barcelona - season 12
Berlin - season 21
Bregenz - festival 1
Brussels - season 2
Budapest - season and festival 5
Charleston - festival 17
Chicago - season 27
Copenhagen - season
Glimmerglass - festival
Glyndebourne - festival
Houston - season 8
London - season 37
Madrid - season 9
Melbourne - season (Ring)
Milan - season 35
Munich - season and festival 18
NYC - season 38
Paris - season 42
Pesaro - festival
Prague - season
Ravenna - festival
Salzburg - season and festival 2
San Francisco - season 7
Santa Fe - festival 6
Seattle - season 11
St.Petersburg - season
Valencia - season 2
Verona - festival
Vienna - season 31
Zürich - season 16

2012 1
2013 6
2014 2

Spring/Fall 7
Summer 6
Winter 4


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Question 1
Rank your preferred cities among the above, by order of preference, up to 10 choices

1 - NYC 
2 - Any other US location

Question 2
Anything late 2012 or later is fine, no real preference on year

Question 3
Season isn't so important to me


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz, please rank your other preferred American cities, it's important for the final tally of the votes


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

*Question 1*
Rank your preferred cities among the above, by order of preference, up to 10 choices


Munich - season or festival
Vienna - season
London - season
Zürich - season
Berlin - season 
Barcelona - season

*Question 2*
Vote for: a) 2012, b) 2013, or c) 2014. You can vote for up to two options.

b) 2013 or c) 2014

*Question 3*
Next, please vote for: a) Spring or Fall (off-peak travel/hotel) b) Summer (peak travel/hotel) c) Winter d) Any season, would attend anyway regardless of time of the year if everything else is good. You can vote for up to two between a, b, and c, or vote d if you'd attend in any season.

d).


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> *Question 1*
> Rank your preferred cities among the above, by order of preference, up to 10 choices
> 
> *Question 2*
> ...


1.

a) London
b) Paris
c) Amsterdam
d) Vienna

2. 2012 / 2013

3. Preferably anything but summer because I dislike the heat, but any time is fine really.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Current totals:

Amsterdam - season 16
Baden-Baden - festival
Barcelona - season 17
Berlin - season 27
Bregenz - festival 1
Brussels - season 2
Budapest - season and festival 5
Charleston - festival 17
Chicago - season 27
Copenhagen - season
Glimmerglass - festival
Glyndebourne - festival
Houston - season 8
London - season 55
Madrid - season 9
Melbourne - season (Ring)
Milan - season 35
Munich - season and festival 28
NYC - season 48
Paris - season 51
Pesaro - festival
Prague - season
Ravenna - festival
Salzburg - season and festival 2
San Francisco - season 7
Santa Fe - festival 6
Seattle - season 11
St.Petersburg - season
Valencia - season 2
Verona - festival
Vienna - season 47
Zürich - season 23

2012 2
2013 8
2014 3

Spring/Fall 9
Summer 8
Winter 6

Have voted so far: Almaviva, sospiro, Aramis, MAuer, Schigolch, Couchie, CTP, Aksel, Polednice, ooopera, rgz (incomplete)

London has gained the lead. Paris drops to second and NYC to third. 2013 in the Spring or Fall still ahead.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Reminder so that people who join now don't miss this announcement by having it lost in old pages:

*Vote for your top 10 cities, by order of preference. If you don't have 10 cities that you would consider visiting, stop before 10. This means, if you're not willing to take a transoceanic flight, don't vote for any cities across the ocean from you. If your likelihood of attending is only high enough in certain cities, stop there, don't vote for others you would be highly unlikely to travel to. If you prefer a festival, vote higher for cities that have festivals. If you prefer regular season, vote higher for those that don't have a festival (Budapest, Munich and Salzburg are exceptions since they have both regular seasons and festivals - but if they win, we'll consult the members again on whether they want to attend their festivals or go at some other time). Choice 1 gets 10 points, choice 10 gets 1 point.*

The nominated cities are:

NYC - season
London - season
Brussels - season
Zürich - season
Munich - season and festival
Salzburg - season and festival
Paris - season
Milan - season
Vienna - season 
Berlin - season
Amsterdam - season
Verona - festival
Glyndebourne - festival
Madrid - season
Barcelona - season
Copenhagen - season
Seattle - season
Valencia - season
Santa Fe - festival
Charleston - festival
St.Petersburg - season
Budapest - season and festival
Prague - season
Glimmerglass - festival
Bregenz - festival
Ravenna - festival
Baden-Baden - festival
Chicago - season
San Francisco - season
Houston - season
Pesaro - festival
Melbourne - season (Ring)

*Question 1*
Rank your preferred cities among the above, by order of preference, up to 10 choices

*Question 2*
Vote for: a) 2012, b) 2013, or c) 2014. You can vote for up to two options.

*Question 3*
Next, please vote for: a) Spring or Fall (off-peak travel/hotel) b) Summer (peak travel/hotel) c) Winter d) Any season, would attend anyway regardless of time of the year if everything else is good. You can vote for up to two between a, b, and c, or vote d if you'd attend in any season.

*HAVE VOTED SO FAR:*
Almaviva, sospiro, Aramis, MAuer, Schigolch, Couchie, CTP, Aksel, Polednice, ooopera, rgz (incomplete)

*HAVE VISITED THE THREAD AND EXPRESSED AT LEAST SOME INTEREST, BUT HAVE NOT REPEATED A FORMAL VOTE ONCE ONE WAS CALLED:*
kv466 (interested in Barcelona, Madrid)
mamascarlatti (not interested except for Melbourne)
HarpsichordConcert (anywhere in Europe)
Superhorn (has mentioned a good time in New York City although no formal vote yet)
FragendeFrau (interested in London or New York City)
amfortas (unclear)
CountessAdelle (NYC first, then anywhere in Europe)
AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (NYC)
Nix (NYC)
Jflatter (London first, then Brussels, Paris, Berlin)

*HAS VISITED BUT HAS DECLARED NO INTEREST*

SidJames

*HAVE VISITED THE THREAD BUT HAVE NOT POSTED*

Many others, as evidenced by number of visits versus number of people who have posted

So please, get your votes in, folks, and anybody out there who has only visited the thread and not posted but believes he/she will attend, please vote as well. There is no time limit to end this consultation, but once a location, year, and season get a clear and seemingly unsurmontable lead, then we can move on to other phases of preparation.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

1. London
2. Brussels
3. Berlin
4. Paris
5. Munich season only

2012/2013 season anytime after the ROH Ring Cycle in Autumn 2012. I got tickets today. 

I would prefer if we avoided traditional holiday periods and July/August due to school hols.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Although in time honoured Eurovision rules, can I vote for my own team???


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jflatter said:


> Although in time honoured Eurovision rules, can I vote for my own team???


You sure can! However, if your team wins, we'll expect that you treat us to a round of beer on you. (Wine also works.)

:lol:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

jflatter said:


> 2012/2013 season anytime after the ROH Ring Cycle in Autumn 2012. I got tickets today.


:clap:

Congrats James!! Someone I follow on Twitter spent nearly three hours today on line and on the phone. She got tickets eventually but why oh why does this always happen??!! At one stage today she went from 280 *to* 1900 in the queue!!

(Booking with ROH is a nightmare & stressful, something to take into account if London wins the vote)


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> rgz, please rank your other preferred American cities, it's important for the final tally of the votes


Sure.

1)
NYC
Chicago
SF
Seattle
Charleston
Houston


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> :clap:
> 
> Congrats James!! Someone I follow on Twitter spent nearly three hours today on line and on the phone. She got tickets eventually but why oh why does this always happen??!! At one stage today she went from 280 *to* 1900 in the queue!!
> 
> (Booking with ROH is a nightmare & stressful, something to take into account if London wins the vote)


Yes, I personally think we're making a mistake in giving London the lead - that's why I only placed it in 7th place.
I think we should go somewhere where it will be easy to secure a block of tickets for a largish group.
The Met, buy the way, is no trouble. If one does the booking early as soon as the seats go on sale for the general public (or even better, for guild members which I am) there's plenty of tickets. Of course if you let it go for too long past the sales date, then a number of performances sell out, but it's not this stressful thing of places in queue, limits of two per costumer, etc.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Alma, I'm really not optimistic about being able to participate, so I don't think my vote should skew the totals. Sorry.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Almaviva said:


> Ravenna - festival


Are you sure you didn't misspell that one!? (I'm just jokin')

1. New York
2. Chicago
3. Glimmerglass (c. Cooperstown, NY)

(a distant) 4. Charleston
5. Santa Fe

Year: if 1, 2, or 3- no preference
if 4 or 5- 2014


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

amfortas said:


> Alma, I'm really not optimistic about being able to participate, so I don't think my vote should skew the totals. Sorry.


 OK, too bad. I'd really love to meet you in person. You and Alan (Elgarian) are our funniest posters! Intelligent, funny, nice folks. Oh well, there are many other outstanding individuals here I'd love to meet, so I'll just have to regret that you're not coming, and hope that some day we'll be able to do something else with you and a group of TC'ers.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Are you sure you didn't misspell that one!?


Hey, I've been to Ravenna! It's nice!

"The *Ravenna Festival* is a summer festival of opera and classical music (as well as dance and jazz, ethnic music, drama, film, plus conventions and exhibitions) held in the city of Ravenna, Italy and the surrounding area each July and August.
It was founded in 1990 by Maria Cristina Mazzavilani, the wife of conductor Riccardo Muti, who makes regular appearances there.
Typically, about two dozen events are planned and opera programming has included less well-known operas by Vincenzo Bellini and Donizetti as well as more popular works and visits by major companies such as the Vienna State Opera and the Mariinsky Theatre.
Many performances take place in the 19th Century Teatro Communale Alighieri, as well as the Basilica of Sant'Apollinare, the Basilica of San Vitale, and the Palazzo Mauro De Andrè."


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

How many opera houses are truly repertory houses? In North America there is exactly one - the NY Met. If we decide to go to Chicago, San Francisco, or anywhere else, we're lucky to be able to see two operas in any given week of the season. I'd think that if we visited a city for a week, at a minimum I'd like to be able to see five different operas. Six would be better. Eight would be best, assuming that one of the houses has matinee performances.

In Europe, there's a rep house in Vienna, plus the Volksoper, which puts on both mainstream operas and operettas. In Berlin there are three houses, two of which are rep houses. There are also rep houses in Paris, London, presumably Milan and Moscow... and I'm not sure where else. 

So, my list would include:

1. Berlin. Very reasonable accomodations, with lots to do in the city. I've seen operas there that I will remember for the rest of my life, at both ends of the scale. 
2. Vienna. Pricier than Berlin, but still reasonable. The Haus der Musik is a great museum for anyone who loves classical music.
3. Paris. If you plan right you might be able to see five operas in a week. Needless to say, there's lots to do. Believe it or not, there are also places in Paris - I personally like the 14th and 15th arrondissements - where accommodations are reasonably priced.
4. New York. I've stayed in Queens, right on the #7 subway line, 30 minutes from the Met. A nice reasonably priced chain hotel. The neighborhood was multicultural and full of good inexpensive restaurants. 
5. London. I'm not sure if the Royal Opera House puts on five different operas in a week. Breathtakingly expensive city for everything. They even charged 5 pounds each to go into the churches.
6. Moscow. Avoid mid winter. I've heard that it's ridiculously expensive now.
7. Milan. I don't go in for the Gucci/Versace thing, so I don't find Milan very appealing. There is that opera house, though...


Austrian Airlines offers a good deal on flights from North America to Vienna, which include a couple of nights hotel stay and a Vienna card, which will get you cheaper museum passes and free travel on the U-bahn and buses.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> You sure can! However, if your team wins, we'll expect that you treat us to a round of beer on you. (Wine also works.)
> 
> :lol:


Of course, I would buy everyone a pint of London Pride.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

From what I gather, Russia is generally ridiculously expensive to travel to.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> How many opera houses are truly repertory houses? In North America there is exactly one - the NY Met. If we decide to go to Chicago, San Francisco, or anywhere else, we're lucky to be able to see two operas in any given week of the season. I'd think that if we visited a city for a week, at a minimum I'd like to be able to see five different operas. Six would be better. Eight would be best, assuming that one of the houses has matinee performances.
> 
> In Europe, there's a rep house in Vienna, plus the Volksoper, which puts on both mainstream operas and operettas. In Berlin there are three houses, two of which are rep houses. There are also rep houses in Paris, London, presumably Milan and Moscow... and I'm not sure where else.
> 
> ...


Great post. That's exactly why I've voted in my top five for NY (convenient for me), Paris (for the reasons you've mentioned) and small cities with festivals.

I'm actually afraid that members are not taking these aspects into consideration and are drifting towards an expensive, impractical choice that will limit the number of operas we'll be able to see.

Democracy has its downsides...

So, I'd say the following:

Would anybody care for changing their votes in the light of what waldvogel and sospiro have said? I'd be willing to recalculate everything if members wanted to reassess their positions.

Folks, some of the cities you've been voting for are gorgeous cities and thrilling places to visit.

But if we think of an opera convention, it is very important to factor in the number of accessible performances, ticket availability, and ability to find decent accommodations at an average price (not really a very limiting factor for some of us, but for many of us it *is* a limiting factor so people need to think of the needs of the group rather than just their own).

Berlin/Vienna/Paris seem to be the cities with the most simultaneous performances, from the especial season report we see annually in Opera News Magazine.

All three seem to have enough ticket availability and the possibility of finding decent accommodations.

London is an expensive city with a wicked fight for tickets. Is it really the best of ideas?

NYC is possible in my opinion, like waldvogel said, thanks to several opera performances in a row at the Met with matinées and evenings, relatively easy ticket availability, and some decently priced accommodations when one is creative. And it is very convenient for me. But I'd defer to a cheap European city with numerous simultaneous opera performances as well if it comes to that.

A similar concept is when I stayed in Rome in a VERY nice and VERY inexpensive hotel in the suburbs, at easy reach of the subway which took me to the main attractions in minutes. I'm not putting Rome forward due to low availability of operas, but I'm just agreeing with waldvogel that it is possible in some cities, even NY and Paris, to find decent accommodations.

But if we pick London and end up not getting tickets to the ROH, then we're in trouble.

So, members, give it some thought, and see if you'd reconsider your options. I'm not imposing anything and will go with the majority, but I don't think it is wrong to advocate for a location or locations. Like I said we are in no rush to complete this phase of the project and we can continue to discuss, vote, revise our own votes, for a longish time because for the subsequent success of the project it is VERY important to pick wisely the host city.

Maybe we should have discussed this at more length before calling a vote. I think I called it prematurely.

But we can still rescue the discussion and think harder about what cities are ideal.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I think my (small number of) votes were practical (at least from my own perspective; not necessarily for the whole group), so I'll keep mine as they are.

It's easy to call London incredibly expensive, but I don't think it's any more expensive than other capital cities (anecdotes like being charged to get into a Church are just anecdotes; things like that are rare). I can understand the issue regarding tickets though.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

Berlin/Vienna/Paris

All three cities are great! And they offer opera performance every single day. I think that we should make a decision based on their program. What will they be staging in 2013?

Another thing is that in Vienna we can get standing places (which are btw. one of the best positions in opera) for 4 €. This can be a solution for students and those with limited budgets.

P.S.: I just found that ROH offers group booking. http://www.roh.org.uk/booknow/group_bookings.aspx
And we are THE group


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I can understand the issue regarding tickets though.


The problem lies with the on-line booking system on the ROH website. It isn't very robust & nearly always crashes.

The ROH staff I've spoken to agree (off the record) that the on-line booking system is a disgrace & they admit to being ashamed of it. The tickets are there; it's getting your paws on the blighters which is the problem. 

And I haven't tried booking over the phone ever since someone trying to get Tosca A-Team Tickets told me that instead of being in a queue on the phone, you got a recorded message telling you the lines were busy & to call back later.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

ooopera said:


> Berlin/Vienna/Paris
> 
> All three cities are great! And they offer opera performance every single day. I think that we should make a decision based on their program. What will they be staging in 2013?
> 
> Another thing is that in Vienna we can get standing places (which are btw. one of the best positions in opera) for 4 €. This can be a solution for students and those with limited budgets.


Definitely worth looking at



ooopera said:


> P.S.: I just found that ROH offers group booking. http://www.roh.org.uk/booknow/group_bookings.aspx
> And we are THE group




D'uh!! Good job one of us is looking in the right place. How embarrassing but I didn't think to investigate 'group booking'

Thank you ooopera!

And yes we _are_ The Group - we are *The TC Opera Group* or how about *The Almaviva Opera Group*?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Awesome idea. I'm not sure if I'll be able to, but definitely keep me posted as I'd love to do this.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> OK, too bad. I'd really love to meet you in person. You and Alan (Elgarian) are our funniest posters! Intelligent, funny, nice folks. Oh well, there are many other outstanding individuals here I'd love to meet, so I'll just have to regret that you're not coming, and hope that some day we'll be able to do something else with you and a group of TC'ers.


Aw, thanks. Hopefully we will meet in person some day!

I'm flattered by the comparison to Elgarian. So flattered, in fact, that I've decided to steal his name . . .


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I've been in London and Vienna many times, and I'm just shocked that anyone having stayed in both cities can really pretend Vienna is cheaper!. If you have to pay to enter some churches in London, in Vienna you just have to pay to see them from outside. 

Don't see also any problem to book for a group of opera fans... In fact, I've already been part of a group of fans booking in the ROH!. It could also be interesting attend some performance at the ENO.

So, for me London is the best choice, taking into account also the number of people just living in or near the city.

Paris is also ok, of course, as well as Berlin. 

About NYC, it's fine for me. However, I think many european members will find difficult to cross the Ocean. Of course, it could be just the other way around for our US and Canadian friends, but we have to settle on just one place, so I will stick to London.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

schigolch said:


> I've been in London and Vienna many times, and I'm just shocked that anyone having stayed in both cities can really pretend Vienna is cheaper!. If you have to pay to enter some churches in London, in Vienna you just have to pay to see them from outside.
> 
> Don't see also any problem to book for a group of opera fans... In fact, I've already been part of a group of fans booking in the ROH!. It could also be interesting attend some performance at the ENO.
> 
> ...


Oh well, if there is an easy way to do a group booking at the ROH then London becomes again a nice option.
About crossing the ocean: off peak, transoceanic flights are actually cheap.
Between New York City and London there are 6-7 hours of flight. About the same between NYC and LA. Not a big deal at all. I believe that London is a viable option for North Americans, and NYC is a viable option for Europeans.
People just feel scared of the other side.
Sospiro for example has manifested at some point that she was scared of coming to NYC.
NYC is actually a very friendly and uncomplicated place.

About Paris: I'd love to see it prevail, since I've loved so much many productions from the Paris National Opera (Garnier, Bastille) or the Chatelet, not to forget that they also have other active and good venues. Also, I speak the language, know the city very well, have friends there.

Berlin, no clue. I haven't been to Berlin. Do they have subtitles in multiple languages like the Met? I don't speak any German. Same problem in Vienna, I guess.

What is the subtitle situation in German-speaking opera houses?

I'm just curious. Of course, one can always study the libretto in advance.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> And yes we _are_ The Group - we are *The TC Opera Group* or how about *The Almaviva Opera Group*?


Oh no, no way, not the Almaviva Opera Group. Definitely the TC Opera Group.
Nothing would be possible without our outstanding members. I'm just trying to put our members' enthusiasm and expertise to good use.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Sospiro for example has manifested at some point that she was scared of coming to NYC.
> NYC is actually a very friendly and uncomplicated place.
> 
> About Paris: I'd love to see it prevail, since I've loved so much many productions from the Paris National Opera (Garnier, Bastille) or the Chatelet, not to forget that they also have other active and good venues. Also, I speak the language, know the city very well, have friends there.
> ...


New York City is by and large safe, wonderfully interesting and full of great architecture. It's also a breeze to get around Manhattan via the subway. There's an actual Lincoln Center subway stop, where you walk out of the tunnel directly into a red-carpeted entrance to the Met. So if it's cold or rainy, there's no need to go outside.

Berlin is an amazing city - don't expect it to look like Paris, of course. It also is full of excellent post-war architecture, and has loads of museums. The opera houses only offer German surtitles - but they at least have the decency to put them up in German operas.

The Staatsoper in Vienna has LED titles at your seat, which can be selected for "Deutsch", "English", or "Original". The best I've ever seen. And yes, you can find a nice hotel near a U-bahn route in Vienna for 60 to 80 Euros a night for a double. This includes a huge breakfast - possibly including things like pork chops and roasted potatoes that somehow don't make my breakfast list.

And yes, Polednice, Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's Cathedral did charge 5 pounds for entry. I'm sure that not every church does - however the local Jehovah's Witnesses don't seem to have very inspiring buildings. And if you can find a decent hotel in London for 80 Euros a night, don't be surprised if your neighbourhood starts burning during the night. And it's 4 pounds for an adult to ride the tube out of that neighbourhood...


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

My final vote:

Q1: New York then Munich

Q2: 2013/2014

Q3:Spring

I'm flexible though. This is getting exciting.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

waldvogel said:


> New York City is by and large safe, wonderfully interesting and full of great architecture. It's also a breeze to get around Manhattan via the subway. There's an actual Lincoln Center subway stop, where you walk out of the tunnel directly into a red-carpeted entrance to the Met. So if it's cold or rainy, there's no need to go outside.
> 
> The Staatsoper in Vienna has LED titles at your seat, which can be selected for "Deutsch", "English", or "Original". The best I've ever seen. And yes, you can find a nice hotel near a U-bahn route in Vienna for 60 to 80 Euros a night for a double. This includes a huge breakfast - possibly including things like pork chops and roasted potatoes that somehow don't make my breakfast list.


Yep, yep, the 66th street station communicates directly to the Met. MetTitles are also individually placed at your seat (see the picture in my Second Anna Peregrination thread), and can be set to English, German, or Spanish.
I'm thinking that NYC and Vienna are the ideal venues... (and Paris for me).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

We should have not just name tags, but rather a color print-out of our avatars to insert into a plastic badge.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

My only request for this entire trip is that we drunkenly sing the Drinking Song from Traviata at least once, preferably in a public place.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Just to clarify my misgivings about NYC - I'm not worried about my personal safety, I do lots of travelling alone & use common sense. I'm sure NYC is no more dangerous than any other city. It's just its size which daunts me.

I'd never been to either Munich or Berlin before, I can't speak a word of German but happily hopped on the plane without any cares. But they're small places compared with NYC. 

In Berlin my taxi driver was Italian & an opera lover & sang a couple of lines from _Lucia_ to me. 

And yes there are only German sub-titles so you'd need to do a bit of homework first.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

sospiro said:


> I'm sure NYC is no more dangerous than any other city. It's just its size which daunts me.


If you're a fiercely independent traveller, I can see how this could be a concern. However, there surely would be a set of helpful Americans on hand, whose knowledge of the city is such that they could qualify as virtual NYC natives.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, if you go outside Vienna and to an hotel by the expressway thing are cheaper... exactly as they will be in London. You can go to Croydon for instance and get some decent hotel in this price bracket, a friend informs me. 

Downtown, things are not most expensive in London than Vienna, in terms of cost of living for a traveller. Also, for many people on this forum, English could be more amenable than German. In Vienna or Berlin, myself and other members of the board can help with the language, but in London everyone will be at home regarding this matter.

Paris is ok for me, no problem. Just be in no illusion about cost of living for a traveller, that it's around the same than in London (depending on the Euro/Dollar/Pound exchange rate it could be some more expensive or some more cheaper).

NYC is also fine. If we get enough members supporting this venue, I will be there too.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, the discussion has progressed, and so has the voting. It seems like most of the top cities will do and we'll be able to get tickets, hopefully. So here are the totals so far:

Amsterdam - season 16
Baden-Baden - festival
Barcelona - season 17
Berlin - season 45
Bregenz - festival 1
Brussels - season 11
Budapest - season and festival 5
Charleston - festival 30
Chicago - season 45
Copenhagen - season
Glimmerglass (Cooperstown) - festival 8
Glyndebourne - festival
Houston - season 13
London - season 71
Madrid - season 9
Melbourne - season (Ring)
Milan - season 39
Moscow - season 5
Munich - season and festival 43
NYC - season 75
Paris - season 66
Pesaro - festival
Prague - season
Ravenna - festival
Salzburg - season and festival 2
San Francisco - season 15
Santa Fe - festival 11
Seattle - season 18
St.Petersburg - season
Valencia - season 2
Verona - festival
Vienna - season 56
Zürich - season 23

2012 4
2013 11
2014 5

Spring/Fall 11
Summer 8
Winter 7

Have voted so far: Almaviva, sospiro, Aramis, MAuer, Schigolch, Couchie, CTP, Aksel, Polednice, ooopera, rgz, CTP, jflatter, waldvogel, CountessAdele

New York City regains the lead with London in hot pursuit, only 4 points behind. Paris is third, 9 points behind. Vienna comes next, 19 points behind, and other cities are starting to fade in the distance.

Remaining members who have indicated interest but haven't formally voted yet include (I have removed mamascarlatti since nobody has voted for Melbourne and by now it is impossible for Melbourne to suddenly gain the lead, and she has clearly said that she isn't going anywhere else):

kv466 (interested in Barcelona, Madrid)
HarpsichordConcert (anywhere in Europe)
Superhorn (has mentioned a good time in New York City although no formal vote yet)
FragendeFrau (interested in London or New York City)
amfortas (unclear)
AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (NYC)
Nix (NYC)
WorldViolist (unclear)

Looking at these expressed intentions, NYC might collect another 20 points with AmericanGesamtkunstwerk and Nix; FrangendFrau's vote shouldn't give to NYC or London any more than 1 point advantage if she ranks either one first and the other second; Superhorn if he/she decides to vote (I'm not sure if my needed intervention angered him/her - don't shoot the messenger, folks, I *had* to do that, I'm sworn to uphold the TOS!) he/she may increase NYC's advantage. Amfortas and WorldViolist haven't mentioned any cities. They both live in America, though. HC might vote for an European city and may get London or Paris to progress a little more. Since Barcelona and Madrid at this point are not really strong in the race, kv466's third option may prove instrumental.

The race is close, but the trends above from the folks who haven't formally voted yet do seem to anticipate that NYC may actually extend its lead - although London and Paris are definitely not out yet, we'll see.

One thing I'll say: if NYC prevails at the end, we Americans will show you guys a good time. I know the city like the palm of my hand, and so do others, and other than good opera (I'm looking at the Met calendar and we'd easily be able to attend 4 operas in a period of 3 days - and there are many other opera companies in the city that are also worth exploring), museums, restaurants, shopping, strolls in interesting neighborhoods like Soho, Little Italy, the Village, Central Park, 5th Avenue, are a pleasure. For fans of other genres of music, there is no shortage of them - think jazz in the Village, for instance. If you fancy theater plays, there are great pickings, from Broadway to off-Broadway to off-off-Broadway.

As for safety considerations, NYC is the safest large American city in terms of crime rates (not in absolute numbers given its size, but in relative numbers, it is). Crime there is actually very rare in the nice areas, since it concentrates in areas such as the South Bronx and certain Brooklyn neighborhoods that we won't be visiting. Manhattan is a very, very, very safe place.

The city is also very convenient to visit, being entirely flat for those who love walking, and with a simple system of numbered streets, and excellent subway and bus services.

If it prevails, I can guarantee that our European friends won't regret it.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I'm European, but also know NYC very well, having being a resident years (too many!) ago, and visiting almost every year, so I can help with anything, if necessary.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

NYC is one of the only major US cities I _haven't_ been to, so you can expect me to be looking up at skyscrapers gaping like an idiot and walking into people.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

To schigolch: here are some of the hotels that I've stayed at in Vienna. None of them are near the expressway, and all are near the U-bahn.

http://www.booking.com/hotel/at/hot...1-20;srfid=cac59ff25b558fa147ed3f81883dff90X6

This hotel charges 75 Euros a night, including breakfast. It's in a nice neighbourhood and about a 15 minute ride to the Staatsoper. The breakfasts were so big that we would only need to eat one other meal.

http://www.booking.com/hotel/at/gta...1-20;srfid=879c1dbb5a2ed9a1cf4ecaf78868a8e8X7

This hotel is in the fifth district, about a 40 minute walk to the Staatsoper, or 10 minutes by bus. For 85 Euros a night, you get a great breakfast and free WiFi.

http://www.booking.com/hotel/at/viennart.en-us.html?aid=1913;sid=0282e9e4f37d17e15a7e4dfbf667b19b

This hotel is located about 200 m outside of the Ring, just behind the Leopold Museum. It's about a 15 minute walk to the Staatsoper - no need to take the U-bahn. It had an excellent breakfast, with choices of coffee and a full meat-and-potatoes buffet. And it's all available at 74 Euros a night.

I pretended to book these places for a week starting on November 13th. Spring and fall are the times when the opera houses are running full-tilt, and the weather isn't particularly cold.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> If it prevails, I can guarantee that our European friends won't regret it.


Split your lungs with blood and thunder when you see the white whale. Break your backs and crack your oars, men! If you wish to prevail.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

waldvogel said:


> To schigolch: here are some of the hotels that I've stayed at in Vienna. None of them are near the expressway, and all are near the U-bahn.
> 
> http://www.booking.com/hotel/at/hot...1-20;srfid=cac59ff25b558fa147ed3f81883dff90X6
> 
> ...


I'm not a frequent user of budget accommodations, but I congratulate you on these hotels. Myself, I've always stayed downtown, the last couple of occasions at Grand Hotel Wien. I'm not a client of budget hotels at London either, and that's why I asked for advice to a friend of mine, that assured me there was no problem in getting accommodation at the price bracket you mention.

What I can positively affirm myself, is that the cost of living in Vienna is no less than in London, while many TC members will feel much more at home in Londinium than in Vindobona.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

schigolch said:


> I'm not a frequent user of budget accommodations, but I congratulate you on these hotels. Myself, I've always stayed downtown, the last couple of occasions at Grand Hotel Wien. I'm not a client of budget hotels at London either, and that's why I asked for advice to a friend of mine, that assured me there was no problem in getting accommodation at the price bracket you mention.
> 
> What I can positively affirm myself, is that the cost of living in Vienna is no less than in London, while many TC members will feel much more at home in Londinium than in Vindobona.


Ultimately depending on how well we can organize the program, whatever city we settle for, if the hotel ends up being just a place to get some sleep and the core of the convention happens elsewhere, we could think of booking two hotels, a more expensive and more centrally localled one for the members who want to splurge (with the advantage of better equipment if we want to rent a room with a flat-screen TV and a DVD player and equipment for a Power Point presentation for lectures), and a less expensive and more distant one for the more budget-conscious members, who would use their hotel just for sleeping, and would then come downtown and join the other members in the fancier location for screenings, lectures, and for walking to the opera houses.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

By the way, I love the idea of this, but it's very unlikely that I'd be able to participate, so I'd better not vote.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh, sorry for advocating so heavily for NYC (London, Paris, and Vienna supporters, feel free to do the same for your favorite venues), but I'd like to add that for the ultra-budget conscious (students, etc) New York City has ultra-cheap accommodations such as the YMCA hostel located a few blocks from Lincoln Center. Off season, flights from Europe are cheap and the young students among us could stay at the YMCA while the old bucks like me who have had more time in life to save some money get a decent hotel. There are many ways to save money while visiting NYC, from getting in town from the airport using public transportation, to eating delicious cheap frankfurters on the corner of 72nd and Broadway.

The other 10 active opera companies in New York City other than the Met have interesting programs as well; we might be able to see a tone of opera from the ultra-professional Met to the friendly small companies, and to get in touch with some of the smaller companies to organize a lecture with real-life singers, get a backstage tour of the Met, get into singers guest lists at the Met (now that I know how to do it)... Lots, lots of fun...

NYC for the win!!!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*A Word in Defense of Our European Allies*

I was thinking that American vote totals had one advantage of European ones- and that is- while New York has clearly lapped the field for North American venues (though I think we may be selling Chicago a little short, here), the issue in Europe is not as clear. In this manner, New York is benefitting from "concentration of fire" votes (including, admittedly... mine) that haven't similarly accrued to the top-choice European venue.

Perhaps the ultimate answer is to commit to a followup meeting on the other continent two or more years after the meeting at the top vote-getting venue. And (to be fair) if New York prevails, we North Americans should make it a point of honor to at least match the attendance of Europeans in New York City, should Manhattan be our first choice.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> I was thinking that American vote totals had one advantage of European ones- and that is- while New York has clearly lapped the field for North American venues (though I think we may be selling Chicago a little short, here), the issue in Europe is not as clear. In this manner, New York is benefitting from "concentration of fire" votes (including, admittedly... mine) that haven't similarly accrued to the top-choice European venue.
> 
> Perhaps the ultimate answer is to commit to a followup meeting on the other continent two or more years after the meeting at the top vote-getting venue. And (to be fair) if New York prevails, we North Americans should make it a point of honor to at least match the attendance of Europeans in New York City, should Manhattan be our first choice.


Yes, but on the other hand many Americans have voted for the top European contenders like London and Paris in high positions that increased their points (e.g., myself, I voted for Paris second which gave it 9 points) and many Europeans placed New York high in their preferences as well, so I think all is fair. But I'm all for the alternation you're proposing and if NYC prevails this time I'd be delighted to go to Europe next, and vice-versa.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

OK, sorry for the huge delay. October & November are my months to get slammed at work, and involve work-related travel (I'll be away most of this week but will report on the JK concert on Sunday if I can get wifi access).

I will say that, reading over this proposal again, I am highly unlikely to want to spend any time in a hotel conference room hearing a lecture, watching opera DVDs, or doing opera karaoke. I will want to spend every possible moment exploring the city! (unless we are in London, where I used to live and will be staying with an old friend...but even then...)

On the other hand, the opera houses (NYC and London, anyway) sometimes have lectures and panels with singers and others relating to the current rep. If we are organized, might it be possible to sign up for these? Although in London, I suspect they are limited to Friends.

OK my choices:

City:
London - season
Munich - season and festival
Vienna - season
Paris - season
NYC - season
Milan - season
Zürich - season
Berlin - season
Amsterdam - season
Madrid - season
Barcelona - season


Year: 2013 at the earliest


Season: well I like it cold and less expensive, so probably fall/winter, although I know the festival in Munich is in the summer--I'd make an exception for that! Problem would be that, as I mentioned, I wouldn't be able to do October and first half of November.

Could we possibly combine Munich and Vienna? I know "Unfaithful Zerbinetta" of Likely Impossibilities blog was living in Vienna and seemed to take in a number of Munich performances. Also perhaps we could combine Paris and La Monnaie?

I have NYC lower on my list, because I can actually get there fairly easily, even if it is expensive. I would love to go to a city where I haven't seen the opera before (except Munich, where I did go but it was so long ago...things were much, much different!)

Of course, this is all a pipe-dream right now since I have NO funds for such a trip! But one can always dream! My credit card will be filled to the limit, if my plans for spring/summer 2012 work out...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh wow, I believe this puts London and NYC tied for first place with 81 points, highly exciting contest!

About lectures, screenings, etc., of course nobody would be forced to attend anything, but if we plan it right, there may be enough interested members willing to spare a couple of hours doing something like this together, it will help with social bonding. But let's not worry about this which will be way down the road (a program committee will look into it). For now we're trying to figure out the year, city, and season.

As for doing two cities, I think not... it is complicated enough to get it done in one city, at least officially. After the end of the convention, people would be free to travel to other cities on their own if they so desire.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Oh wow, I believe this puts London and NYC tied for first place with 81 points, highly exciting contest!


:clap:

I'm getting quite excited at the prospect of maybe seeing New York after all.



Almaviva said:


> About lectures, screenings, etc., ... there may be enough interested members willing to spare a couple of hours doing something like this together, it will help with social bonding....


Yay - I can bond with Alma & I know just the DVD we can watch together ...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Yay - I can bond with Alma & I know just the DVD we can watch together ...


Darn, I'll have to get a special permit from the city to go look for it in the landfill.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

FragendeFrau said:


> Of course, this is all a pipe-dream right now since I have NO funds for such a trip! But one can always dream! My credit card will be filled to the limit, if my plans for spring/summer 2012 work out...


This brings up a methodological issue with the poll that may be important, in that a person's individual choices don't reflect the likelihood of their attending. For example, if 20 people picked London but each had only a 50% chance of attending, and 18 picked NYC but had a 90% chance of attending, that would result in a 10 person meetup in London vs. a 16 person meetup in NYC. Obviously the NYC choice would better satisfy the goal of this project.

Clearly my numbers are abstract and simplified to illustrate the point but it is a real issue that should be addressed I think. Maybe have a runoff of the top 5 vote getters, where we list our estimated odds of attending at that location.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> highly exciting contest!


Of two least exciting possibilities :tiphat:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

rgz said:


> This brings up a methodological issue with the poll that may be important, in that a person's individual choices don't reflect the likelihood of their attending. For example, if 20 people picked London but each had only a 50% chance of attending, and 18 picked NYC but had a 90% chance of attending, that would result in a 10 person meetup in London vs. a 16 person meetup in NYC. Obviously the NYC choice would better satisfy the goal of this project.
> 
> Clearly my numbers are abstract and simplified to illustrate the point but it is a real issue that should be addressed I think. Maybe have a runoff of the top 5 vote getters, where we list our estimated odds of attending at that location.


A very valid point Ian. Just to confirm I will be able to attend any of those on my list, weather, industrial action or erupting Icelandic volcanoes permitting.

Just one other thing to chuck in the melting pot - I do hope we'll have the chance of seeing more than one type though as I have no interest in seeing a Wagner or a non-Italian Mozart. A 'Ring' would exclude me totally.


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## GoneBaroque (Jun 16, 2011)

sospiro said:


> A very valid point Ian. Just to confirm I will be able to attend any of those on my list, weather, industrial action or erupting Icelandic volcanoes permitting.
> 
> Just one other thing to chuck in the melting pot - I do hope we'll have the chance of seeing more than one type though as I have no interest in seeing a Wagner or a non-Italian Mozart. A 'Ring' would exclude me totally.


Just remember Annie, Wagner's music is better than it sounds.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> This brings up a methodological issue with the poll that may be important, in that a person's individual choices don't reflect the likelihood of their attending. For example, if 20 people picked London but each had only a 50% chance of attending, and 18 picked NYC but had a 90% chance of attending, that would result in a 10 person meetup in London vs. a 16 person meetup in NYC. Obviously the NYC choice would better satisfy the goal of this project.
> 
> Clearly my numbers are abstract and simplified to illustrate the point but it is a real issue that should be addressed I think. Maybe have a runoff of the top 5 vote getters, where we list our estimated odds of attending at that location.


Yes I thought of that, but just thought that it would complicate the vote so much, that it would make it almost impossible to tally. Besides, people might have different criteria to estimate their own chances of attending (there are people who are optimists, others are not), and that likelihood might vary city to city (such as, I'll have 100% chance of attending in NYC but 1% chance of attending in Melbourne). So should we accompany each city by a percentage number? Or just the overall likelihood of attending the convention? It gets to be too complicated.

The way I tried to remediate this was to ask people to vote for locations they're planning to attend if possible, and to stop picking locations once they run out of those. So someone may have voted for only 4 or 6 locations because those are all that the person is willing to attend, or not have voted for any transoceanic location because they're not willing to cross the pond. Also, attributing more points to cities ranked higher by each member partially deals with this, since people should be more willing to rank high the cities they're most interested in visiting or cities that are most convenient for them.

So it's not like this variability is not taken into account at all.

But the runoff idea is good, although one downside is how it might be open to manipulation - a person would want a certain city to win, and would rank that one at 100%, and then would rank the competition at 10%, fully knowing that if their preferred city didn't win, they'd still make an effort to go to another city - while a member being totally honest about percentages might get his/her interest defeated.

So, a vote ranking cities by order of preference, attributing decreasing points, and implying that people should not vote for cities that they aren't planning to visit for the convention, at least has the advantage of being a clean and direct vote that warrants a certain degree of fairness.

I'd favor a runoff within certain parameters. Let's say two cities end up with final numbers that are really close (say, within ten points of each other). It might be good to do a head count and see who would attend each city, because that might be a more important criterion than whether or not a city has collected a few more points. But if a city gets a significant lead, then it may be unfair to the members who put it forward through first, second, third choice, to put that city through still another test.

I'm uncertain about all of this. The above are just thoughts. Let's hope more people will give their input on this issue.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

GoneBaroque said:


> Just remember Annie, Wagner's music is better than it sounds.


:lol:

Possibly but I still can't get over my dislike of sung German. Don't get me wrong, I love Germany, have German friends, for years supported a German racing driver & love the sound of English spoken with a German accent.

It's just German words I don't like.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Yes I thought of that, but just thought that it would complicate the vote so much, that it would make it almost impossible to tally. Besides, people might have different criteria to estimate their own chances of attending (there are people who are optimists, others are not), and that likelihood might vary city to city (such as, I'll have 100% chance of attending in NYC but 1% chance of attending in Melbourne). So should we accompany each city by a percentage number? Or just the overall likelihood of attending the convention? It gets to be too complicated.
> 
> The way I tried to remediate this was to ask people to vote for locations they're planning to attend if possible, and to stop picking locations once they run out of those. So someone may have voted for only 4 or 6 locations because those are all that the person is willing to attend, or not have voted for any transoceanic location because they're not willing to cross the pond. Also, attributing more points to cities ranked higher by each member partially deals with this, since people should be more willing to rank high the cities they're most interested in visiting or cities that are most convenient for them.
> 
> ...


All good points, but I think we'll have to rely on the good and honest nature of members here to vote truthfully. The sad fact is, literally every voting system with 3+ choices can be gamed and/or is not 100% reliable (for a rather complex explanation of this theorem refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_impossibility_theorem )

Right now this thread has been operating under one a modified Borda Count system, but again it doesn't address individual likelihood of attending. And I'm certainly not against any European destination, but it changes the chance of my attending from 90% down to something like 15% 

FWIW, I'll always vote 100% honestly and without trying to game the system


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> All good points, but I think we'll have to rely on the good and honest nature of members here to vote truthfully. The sad fact is, literally every voting system with 3+ choices can be gamed and/or is not 100% reliable (for a rather complex explanation of this theorem refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow's_impossibility_theorem )
> 
> Right now this thread has been operating under one a modified Borda Count system, but again it doesn't address individual likelihood of attending. And I'm certainly not against any European destination, but it changes the chance of my attending from 90% down to something like 15%
> 
> FWIW, I'll always vote 100% honestly and without trying to game the system


But there is no 100% ideal solution to this.
Some method *will* have to be used, but *all* methods have flaws. Since we must pick one, we must also accept a certain degree of flaws.

With the method you're proposing, a person like me (who will attend with 100% certainty anywhere in Europe or the United States) would more heavily influence the vote (by having all my 10 votes count at 100% of their strength) than someone who expressed a different likelihood of attending according to a city.

Let's say that someone - member A - estimates at 50% his or her likelihood of attending - then, ends up attending anyway.
Why would this person's vote be valued at only half of that of a person - member B - who said 100% - then, ended up having a last moment impediment and not attending? Let's suppose that B's was the deciding vote to put city X ahead of runner-up city Y which was A's preferred city, and A still attended the convention with enormous personal sacrifice by traveling to city X, but could have attended at Y with less hardship and expenses, if only member B's vote hadn't weighed more than A's vote. Is it fair to A that his/her vote counted less?

And the bad part is that most likely, a person who is so certain of attending should actually influence the choice LESS than a person who is more uncertain. Member B will go anywhere so he/she shouldn't be so picky... while maybe Member A *needs* to get a convenient city for him/her due to several limitations (health, money, whatever) in order to be able to attend.

It gets so subjective...

I insist that my method does at least partially take likelihood of attendance into consideration.

Just look at your own vote. You said you'd have a 90% likelihood of attending the convention in New York City (less likely in other American cities), but only 15% of likelihood of attending it in Europe. Therefore, and appropriately, you have voted for NYC first, other American locations next, and you DID NOT vote for any European city. You didn't use up your allotment of up to 10 picks, because there aren't 10 cities in the list of nominees that you would consider attending at more than 15% likelihood. So you're already expressing your low likelihood of attending the event in Europe, by not voting for any European city.

Me, I'll attend anywhere in Europe or North America; then, also appropriately I used up my entire allotment of ten cities, and picked both American and European cities.

We had members here picking only two cities, and others who picked ten. I assume that they are making their attendance calculations when they pick certain cities. We had members who picked just one side of the pond, while others picked both.

Again, I don't know.

One possibility would be to grant bonus points at the end to they city with the highest likelihood of attendance, to see if this would put it ahead in the final tally.

We'd have to think of how many bonus points... it should be a number significant enough to have a chance of making a difference, but not overwhelming to the point that it would completely distort the results.

We'd get the top 5 cities, ask everybody to rank their estimated attendance for each of them, and grant, say, 10 more points to the winner of the attendance ranking.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Your method takes likelihood into account to some extent, but consider your top 10 votes, all of which you have 100% chance of attending, versus someone who would vote, say, 

1. London (100%)
2. Paris (50%)
3. Amsterdam (10%)
4. Vienna (<10%)
5. etc

IMO their #2 vote is disproportionately weighted w/r/t desired outcomes (i.e., the most TC members possible in attendance); or, to put it another way, your #2 vote doesn't count enough, since you will surely attend and this member is a 50/50 proposition.

In any event, I'm just pointing out the issue so that it can be considered and acknowledged, not trying to make a federal case out of it.

One possible approach, if we could trust everyone not to try and game the system, is as we've discussed to do a runoff of the top 5, with everyone putting their likely percent-to-attend by the city name. Find the median (and maybe the standard deviation would be helpful as well) for each city and you'll find which is likely to be best attended.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

> In any event, I'm just pointing out the issue so that it can be considered and acknowledged, not trying to make a federal case out of it.


Oh no, I appreciate what you're saying, and you're making valid points. It's just that I see it a bit differently - I think for instance that it is OK for the above member in your example to have his/her #2 choice disproportionally weighed, because maybe he/she needs more help to be able to attend. My #2 choice not counting as much sounds fine to me because I'd attend anywhere anyway. See my point? There are always two ways to see things.

I don't think there is real reason to suspect that members would game the system. I believe we can trust our esteemed members.

I'm more worried about variable criteria and increasing the subjectivity of the system. There is no way to gauge whether or not member A's self-assessed 50% of likelihood of attendance corresponds reliably to member B's 50%. Hell, a very enthusiastic and optimistic person might rank a city 100%, only to realize later when the date comes closer that he/she may be in more trouble than he/she was ready to acknowledge, and actually will have only 25% of likelihood of attending. So why would that person have a stronger say than a more realistic person who had assessed it at 50%? It is the problem of inter-rater reliability.

Also, ranking something 100% or 10% may not hold water at all, closer to the date. I'm saying 100%... what if I get sick? Someone is saying 10% due to a city being far away and expensive... what if the person gets a raise and a bonus from the boss or gets a better paying job and decides to go?

Weighing members' votes differently seems a bit unfair.

In my system, the *member* himself or herself ranks cities according to personal preferences, interest, availability, likelihood of attendance, etc... in a simple and transparent way, and each person is in principle given a fair and equal chance at making a difference - as long as they respect the suggestion of not ranking a city they don't plan to visit. Someone is not disqualified (relatively speaking) from making a decent impact because he/she is going through some financial trouble or is worried about other personal issues, etc.

Still, a city getting a final score of say, 112 points, is inherently much more likely to be well attended (thanks to several people ranking it highly, this is after all how the total goes up) than a city that scores 16 points.

Anyway, I feel that I'm going on and on just because I like an argument...:devil:

Fine with me, if people want a runoff for the top 5, we can do it (you could help with the statistical analysis since you seem to know a lot about statistics:tiphat.

But pretty much only the two of us have expressed views on this, so let's see what the other members say.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Darn, I'll have to get a special permit from the city to go look for it in the landfill.


No need, I'll bring a brand new blu-ray version for us to enjoy together.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> No need, I'll bring a brand new blu-ray version for us to enjoy together.


Maybe it's worth my making the 18,000km journey again just to sit on the other side of Alma and watch him squirm!

At least we'll be guaranteed no air-conducting.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

All right, so now I got a way to convince Natalie to attend the convention.
I'll submit to the torture for this worthy cause.
Natalie, please vote for NYC!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Just be certain you enjoy this DVD in the intimacy of your room, and don't share it with other members attending the convention.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

schigolch said:


> Just be certain you enjoy this DVD in the intimacy of your room, and don't share it with other members attending the convention.


That's a good idea, because then I can fool Nat and Annie into thinking that I'm watching it, while I throw it in the garbage a second time.:devil:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Of two least exciting possibilities :tiphat:


So you think New York City is not exciting? Wow. Have you been to it?
I'm still to find a person who knows the city and doesn't think it is exciting.
There are downsides to New York City, but dullness is not one of them.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> So you think New York City is not exciting? Wow. Have you been to it?
> I'm still to find a person who knows the city and doesn't think it is exciting.
> There are downsides to New York City, but dullness is not one of them.


Some may consider it to be exciting because of it's magnitude, great modern metropolis surely are all impressive. But I'm not daft girl dreaming american dream of being like "successful women" from american movies and getting excited about possiblity of seeing this "promised land" of yellow taxis and trendy shops. To me it's simple: New York is modern city devoid of great cultural traditions (compared to cities like Vienna or Paris) where I would be passing by a lot of people talking the most common of contemporary languages. It's hardly as fascinating perspective as spending whole days visiting places so closely related to Mozart, Beethoven or Mahler in Vienna, beholding legendary La Scala theatre under Italian azure or quoting Rastignac's "A nous deux maintenant!" while entering inside the legendary monster called Paris.

It would be the longest and most expensive journey for me and at the same time least interesting so if this option wins - I'm excluded.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, you can find some comfort knowing that in Milan, the Italian 'azure' is definitely more a 'grey'.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Well judging by the enthusiasm for the concept, it could be that this is just the start of the *Annual TC Opera Group Convention* & we can choose a different city/continent each time.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Some may consider it to be exciting because of it's magnitude, great modern metropolis surely are all impressive. But I'm not daft girl dreaming american dream of being like "successful women" from american movies and getting excited about possiblity of seeing this "promised land" of yellow taxis and trendy shops. To me it's simple: New York is modern city devoid of great cultural traditions (compared to cities like Vienna or Paris) where I would be passing by a lot of people talking the most common of contemporary languages. It's hardly as fascinating perspective as spending whole days visiting places so closely related to Mozart, Beethoven or Mahler in Vienna, beholding legendary La Scala theatre under Italian azure or quoting Rastignac's "A nous deux maintenant!" while entering inside the legendary monster called Paris.
> 
> It would be the longest and most expensive journey for me and at the same time least interesting so if this option wins - I'm excluded.


Aramis, New York City is a very international city. I've read some stats at some point saying that the majority of its inhabitants do not have English as primary language and some 240 languages are spoken in the city. Walking the streets of New York City I hear all sorts of languages being spoken.

While the United States is a young country as compared to those in Europe, one can't say that New York City doesn't have cultural traditions. They are just not as ancient as in Europe, but NYC has great architecture, outstanding museums (some of the best in the world), and some of the best performing arts institutions in the world (for opera, symphonic music, ballet, theater, etc). When I say that New York City is exciting it's not because of its size or tall buildings. This is the part I care the least about, or even consider it to be a downside. It is exciting exactly because it has a formidable array of cultural and gastronomic possibilities, actually pretty much unrivaled in the world outside of a few places like London, Paris, Rome, Hong Kong, and Tokyo (and arguably, above each one of these).

I bet you have never visited NYC, because I think you're judging it out of some sort of vision of America, believing that you'll find there more of the same. Definitely NYC is probably the most cosmopolitan and diverse city in the entire planet.

I lived in both Paris and New York City for several years for each of them. In terms of cultural activities, I'd pick New York City over Paris without hesitation.

It is interesting to notice that one can have a French lifestyle in New York City. If a person so desires, he or she can speak French all day long and exclusively while in NYC, attend movie theaters that only show French movies, eat in French restaurants with a French chef and French waiters, buy bread from French bakeries and cheese from French cheesemongers, attend cultural events at the French Institute of Columbia University or similar venues in other universities, check out books in French from the library, peruse the works of French sculptors and painters in various museums, and so forth.

This is valid for most major nationalities.

When people asked me why I preferred NYC to Paris, I used to answer - "I can find Paris in NYC, but I can't find NYC in Paris."

Forget about any ideas you may have of life in the United States, its culture, or lack thereof. New York City is a completely different case, and indeed one of the most exciting cities on Earth (and I've been to many of its closer competitors). Streets full of yellow cabs and tall buildings? They do exist, but many charming and ethnic neighborhoods exist as well. The energy and diversity of the city are stupendous.

You need to visit it to have a clear picture of what it is.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

WHAT A LECTURE

Yes, I've never been in NYC or America and can't say I've traveled a lot in general but still I'm not conviced by your description - this diversity and multiculturalism doesn't make me change my mind, on the contrary, I think that it's one of worst things about America, that it's more of a crazy mixture than unique brand of it's own. So what if I can buy baguette in NYC if I won't be able to consume it while walking boulevards to reach Père-Lachaise, Louvre or Dôme des Invalides knowing that some 230 years ago you could hear revolutionary canons all around in this very place. NYC may be better place for wealthy hedonist but not for me.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I have to agree with Almaviva, although I've never been a resident of NYC (and, one other caveat, I do somewhat prefer Paris). If your image of the US is WalMart and McDonald's, New York will be quite the surprise. Not to say there aren't chains, especially in Manhattan -- it seems one can't walk 50 feet without passing a Starbucks -- but it isn't going to be like Suburbia, USA. You'll see and hear people from every corner of the globe every day (and will certainly hear more non-English in New York than you'd hear non-French in Paris). The Metropolitan Museum of Art is easily the biggest and best art museum in the US, and there are two world class modern art museums as well in the Guggenheim and MoMA. Greenwich Village is cool, the huge Chinatown (probably only rivaled in the US by San Francisco's) is cool, and it definitely has culture, if not the lengthy cultural tradition of a Rome or Vienna.



Aramis said:


> this diversity and multiculturalism doesn't make me change my mind, on the contrary, I think that it's one of worst things about America, that it's more of a crazy mixture than unique brand of it's own.


This may be getting a bit too meta, but that diversity *is* NYC's unique brand of its own 

Aramis, you're not one of those types to judge something without experiencing it yourself, are you? Think of those people you know who dismiss opera as being "fat ladies in viking hats screaming". Don't you pity them a bit for not giving it a fair try before jumping to conclusions?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

rgz said:


> Aramis, you're not one of those types to judge something without experiencing it yourself, are you?


My judgement is not about if New York is ultimately charming/terrible place to be but about if I would be tempted to visit it if this kind of convention would take place there. The answer is "no" and I don't see anything wrong in making such judgement without visiting the place, am I to spend fortune for traveling to places I think I wouldn't like that much just in case I wouldn't be unjust in my idea of them? My guess is that it's more natural to visit cities that seem naturally attractive first, then perhaps think of others. I can think of dozens of cities I would love to see and which are closer/cheaper than New York and so I have no intention to change my plans so radically for the sake of convention. Unless I will receive official letter from the MET, saying: "Dear Sir, we invite you to visit our humble vanue and write an opera for us, you may call for any singers you desire and we shall get them for you along with first-quality carrots which are not avaiable in any other place than New York, just to mention... not that you would care...".


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Aramis said:


> WHAT A LECTURE
> 
> Yes, I've never been in NYC or America and can't say I've traveled a lot in general but still I'm not conviced by your description - this diversity and multiculturalism doesn't make me change my mind, on the contrary, I think that it's one of worst things about America, that it's more of a crazy mixture than unique brand of it's own. So what if I can buy baguette in NYC if I won't be able to consume it *while walking boulevards to reach Père-Lachaise*, Louvre or Dôme des Invalides knowing that some 230 years ago you could hear revolutionary canons all around in this very place. NYC may be better place for wealthy hedonist but not for me.


Honestly, bud, this is over the top even for you...worse part, childish and ignorant. I recall, on this very thread I believe, reading that you'd not been much around Europe, either. I'm no lover of New York but everything Alma has written (and at least you didn't waste your time on the rest of us, Alms) is true and from someone who "hates New York" like I do, I think it is a great city in every way described above and beyond. Guess you wouldn't like Miami, either, because you know...who wants to visit a tropical paradise?

But hey, know what?! You'll be happy to know that while you're at the renowned cemetery, you'll be all alone eating your baguette at the lonely steps of Chopin's grave for you won't see a soul nearby. All of visits and flowers and joints, I'm afraid, go to Jim Morrison. There's culture for you.

Now, if that's too overwhelming well then take a trip to Opole along the Odra River and have an Okocim.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Okay, how much did New York authorities pay you all for plotting against me? TRAITORS!


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

I've changed my mind. Something about this conversation, and I'd better not specify what, has convinced me that I'll be able to attend this convention. 

1. New York.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

AnaMendoza said:


> I've changed my mind. Something about this conversation, and I'd better not specify what, has convinced me that I'll be able to attend this convention.
> 
> 1. New York.


:clap:

Great - we just need Aramis to change his mind now


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Aramis, if musical history is your thing, keep in mind that Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, and Mahler all conducted at Carnegie Hall. The latter two were in residence on one-year contracts. Bartok spent his last five years there, Stravinsky his last two. Leonard Bernstein and Aaron Copland spent most of their lives in NYC. And unless you think that jazz is worthless, keep in mind that Ellington, Armstrong, Fitzgerald, Gillespie, Davis, Parker, Coltrane, Monk - I'm going to give up here, but there are many more - all lived in New York for large portions of their careers. You can take a fun and enlightening tour of Harlem to see some of the sights and to wonder what it would have been like to be there in the 1940's.

I've drunk in a bar where the poet Dylan Thomas had - literally - his last drink, and sat in theatres where _A Streetcar Named Desire_ and _Long Day's Journey into Night_ premiered. It's also a city where you're likely to strike up conversations with strangers - try that in Toronto or London. And not just conversations about the Yankees and the weather - I remember a conversation with an old guy in a CD store who insisted that I buy Alfred Brendel's versions of Schubert impromptus and the Wanderer Fantasia. He was right. And another great conversation about American politics - I kept it up for almost half an hour and finally gave up when I told the guy that he probably was right - I'm a Canadian, after all. He was shocked...

It's a city that is safe enough to bring high school students on tour - I've been one of the leaders on a couple of the trips with our school. There are hotels and restaurants that would usher me out the door - politely, of course - but about 6 million New Yorkers live in neighborhoods with reasonable prices, low crime, and a choice of restaurants ranging from American to Somali, Peruvian, and Afghani.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

AnaMendoza said:


> I've changed my mind. Something about this conversation, and I'd better not specify what, has convinced me that I'll be able to attend this convention.
> 
> 1. New York.


I just hope it was not the possibility of watching this DVD...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

schigolch said:


> I just hope it was not the possibility of watching this DVD...


Don't think there's much love out there for our Dima, what d'you reckon Annie.

Oh well all the more for us, hehe.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

schigolch said:


> I just hope it was not the possibility of watching this DVD...












I am distraught .. nay, inconsolable. Going to bed now to sulk.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

schigolch said:


> I just hope it was not the possibility of watching this DVD...


I'm looking forward to it!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

With AnaMendoza's vote, NYC is now the leader with 91 points versus 81 for London. A few folks haven't voted yet, but we're getting closer to some definition, although nothing has been decided yet.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> WHAT A LECTURE
> 
> this diversity and multiculturalism doesn't make me change my mind, on the contrary, I think that it's one of worst things about America, that it's more of a crazy mixture than unique brand of it's own.


But didn't you say - "where I would be passing by a lot of people talking the most common of contemporary languages"?
That's why I mentioned NYC's cultural diversity and multiple languages.
No, NYC is not just for wealthy hedonists (although it is good for those too).
Just as an example, the major museums have days when admission is free (with a "suggested donation" that is not required).
Neighborhoods like the Lower East Side are very colorful with several young and broke artists, lots of alternative cultures and lifestyles, and for what I seem to have learned from you from your posts, you'd find it very curious. Soho, Village, East Village, Tribeca, Battery Park City, Little Italy, Chinatown are all fabulous places, and we shouldn't forget the various international ethnic enclaves in Brooklyn and Queens, all easily accessible by subway and boasting great cheap eats and interesting people. As for arts, like others said here the wealth and accessibility of art in New York City is just mind-boggling. 
I respect your tastes, Aramis, and I grant you that NYC is not as beautiful as Paris, Vienna, Rome, etc. - although it does have its own rough beauty - I just do believe that you're mistaken about NYC for not having had the opportunity to experience it first hand yet, and if and when you do, I'm quite sure you'll see that the city is much more exciting than you think. I hope you do attend the convention if NYC prevails, but if not, I hope that one day you'll visit the city, I'd be curious to learn your impressions.
I didn't mean to lecture, it's just that I really love that city. Cheers.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

kv466 said:


> Honestly, bud, this is over the top even for you...worse part, *childish and ignorant*.


Hey, kv466, let's keep it civil, please. Aramis has a right to his opinion.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Hey, kv466, let's keep it civil, please. Aramis has a right to his opinion.


Thank you, señor...got a bit carried away but I was talking about the post and not him...anyway, we were both pm'ing silly things shortly thereafter 

Anyway, I'll try and stay in check!


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I see you post and like him


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

In any event, whichever wins - London, NY, or elsewhere - I hope this becomes a semiannual (or is it biannual? Never can keep them straight) event and that the next go around will be on another continent. Would be very cool indeed to have a rotating lineup of North America, Europe, and Oceania.

In the event NYC does win this time, I'm very much looking forward to the discussion on dates. Should be spirited indeed, with members pushing for certain dates that coincide with their favorite singers. 

On a completely unrelated tangent, there is a 2012/13 production of Giulio Cesare and a 2013/14 production of I Puritani I'd love to see


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

kv466 said:


> Thank you, señor...got a bit carried away but I was talking about the post and not him...anyway, we were both pm'ing silly things shortly thereafter
> 
> Anyway, I'll try and stay in check!


 Oh well, no harm done, I guess. It was just a reminder.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> In any event, whichever wins - London, NY, or elsewhere - I hope this becomes a semiannual (or is it biannual? Never can keep them straight) event and that the next go around will be on another continent. Would be very cool indeed to have a rotating lineup of North America, Europe, and Oceania.
> 
> In the event NYC does win this time, I'm very much looking forward to the discussion on dates. Should be spirited indeed, with members pushing for certain dates that coincide with their favorite singers.
> 
> On a completely unrelated tangent, there is a 2012/13 production of Giulio Cesare and a 2013/14 production of I Puritani I'd love to see


 Definitely. This vote should just get the first one going, but subsequent ones should alternate between the two continents. I don't know about Oceania, though. It is too far and expensive for most members, I think. Attendance in Oceania would probably be dismal.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Definitely. This vote should just get the first one going, but subsequent ones should alternate between the two continents. I don't know about Oceania, though. It is too far and expensive for most members, I think. *Attendance in Oceania would probably be dismal*.


There'd be lovely ME to give you all a warm welcome!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> There'd be lovely ME to give you all a warm welcome!


 I know that. I plan to visit one day, for this very reason.:kiss:

But I'm just being realistic about the likelihood that many members would attend a TC Opera *convention* in Oceania. Given that Sid James doesn't like opera, most likely the head count would be two - you and HC (that I know, you guys are the only two people who live in Oceania and are regular TC Opera posters). As lovely as you both are, two people don't a convention make. It's nothing against you (you know that!) or HC or Oceania, it's just that the distances are enormous and airline tickets are very expensive, so I believe that if we do a rotation North America/Europe/Oceania, in reality for most people it would mean that we'd be skipping one year out of three.


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I vote for NYC.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Both Nix and AnaMendoza have not specified year, season.
Choices are 2012-2013-2014 (pick two), and Spring/Fall, Summer, Winter, Any Season (pick as many as you want - Spring/Fall are lumped together).


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

First choice-- Spring/Fall 2013 
Second choice-- Spring/Fall 2014

Waiting two years increases the chance I'd be able to attend. Waiting three years is too long to wait.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

So, NYC now gets 101 points vs. 81 for London.

Let's see who hasn't voted yet, in spite of having participated of the thread:

kv466 (has previously mentioned that he is interested in Barcelona, Madrid - which are pretty much out of contention now, so we should see if he has a third pick in mind)
HarpsichordConcert (has previously said "anywhere in Europe")
Superhorn (has mentioned a good time in New York City although no formal vote yet)
AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (had mentioned NYC)
WorldViolist (unclear)

I'll send a PM to these folks encouraging them to come back to this thread again and cast their votes. [edit: done]


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

*Question 1*
Milan - season
Vienna - season 
Zurich - season
London - season
Paris - season
Berlin - season
St.Petersburg - season

*Question 2*
2012

*Question 3* 
Indifferent / any


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Tally so far:

Amsterdam - season 16
Baden-Baden - festival
Barcelona - season 17
Berlin - season 50
Bregenz - festival 1
Brussels - season 11
Budapest - season and festival 5
Charleston - festival 30
Chicago - season 45
Copenhagen - season
Glimmerglass (Cooperstown) - festival 8
Glyndebourne - festival
Houston - season 13
London - season 88
Madrid - season 9
Melbourne - season (Ring)
Milan - season 49
Moscow - season 5
Munich - season and festival 43
NYC - season 101
Paris - season 72
Pesaro - festival
Prague - season
Ravenna - festival
Salzburg - season and festival 2
San Francisco - season 15
Santa Fe - festival 11
Seattle - season 18
St.Petersburg - season 4
Valencia - season 2
Verona - festival
Vienna - season 65
Zürich - season 31

2012 5
2013 12
2014 6

Spring/Fall 13
Summer 9
Winter 8

Haven't voted yet:
kv466 (has previously mentioned that he is interested in Barcelona, Madrid - which are pretty much out of contention now, so we should see if he has a third pick in mind - kv466 has participated of the thread multiple times but still has not formally voted)
Superhorn (has mentioned a good time in New York City but not directly as a vote - just as an account of past experiences - and has issued no formal vote yet)
AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (has mentioned NYC)
WorldViolist (unclear, has manifested interest but hasn't mentioned any city)

With only 4 people left (among them, Superhorn who hasn't replied at all to some three attempts to bring him back to the thread including by PM, it looks like I've managed to turn him off permanently) it looks like 2013 is safe as the leader for the year, and Spring/Fall should win unless all four vote for Summer. With only 13 points separating NYC from London, NY's lead is not safe, although one more vote for it without mentioning London would put its lead out of reach for the former.

Therefore, we're rather close to a definition, and I hope that in the next few hours we'll get these last votes in.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Just as an example, the major museums have days when admission is free (with a "suggested donation" that is not required).


OMG, the museums are occasionally free?!

I shall just point out that London's museums and galleries are free all year round.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Ok, so for me it's:

Berlin
Vienna 
London
New York City

2013

Spring/Fall


Final answer.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Amsterdam - season 16
Baden-Baden - festival
Barcelona - season 17
Berlin - season 60
Bregenz - festival 1
Brussels - season 11
Budapest - season and festival 5
Charleston - festival 30
Chicago - season 45
Copenhagen - season
Glimmerglass (Cooperstown) - festival 8
Glyndebourne - festival
Houston - season 13
London - season 96
Madrid - season 9
Melbourne - season (Ring)
Milan - season 49
Moscow - season 5
Munich - season and festival 43
NYC - season 108
Paris - season 72
Pesaro - festival
Prague - season
Ravenna - festival
Salzburg - season and festival 2
San Francisco - season 15
Santa Fe - festival 11
Seattle - season 18
St.Petersburg - season 4
Valencia - season 2
Verona - festival
Vienna - season 74
Zürich - season 31

2012 5
2013 13
2014 6

Spring/Fall 14
Summer 9
Winter 8

Haven't voted yet:
Superhorn (has mentioned a good time in New York City but not directly as a vote - just as an account of past experiences - and has issued no formal vote yet)
AmericanGesamtkunstwerk (has mentioned NYC)
WorldViolist (unclear, has manifested interest but hasn't mentioned any city)

Spring or fall of 2013 now out of reach, and should be the official time for our convention. NYC still leading, now by 12 points. Three more members to vote (or two if Superhorn never does) so anything is possible between NYC and London but no city other than London can catch NYC at this point. Dates will have to wait definition of city and schedule for the 2013 opera season to maximize attendance to operas.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Polednice said:


> OMG, the museums are occasionally free?!
> 
> I shall just point out that London's museums and galleries are free all year round.


Ya gets what ya pays for


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Gah, I don't know my opera cities. The later the year, the better, so 2014.

1st question, city:
1) Amsterdam
2) London
3) Paris

2nd question, year:
2014

3rd question, season:
Summer.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Amsterdam - season 26
Baden-Baden - festival
Barcelona - season 17
Berlin - season 60
Bregenz - festival 1
Brussels - season 11
Budapest - season and festival 5
Charleston - festival 30
Chicago - season 45
Copenhagen - season
Glimmerglass (Cooperstown) - festival 8
Glyndebourne - festival
Houston - season 13
London - season 105
Madrid - season 9
Melbourne - season (Ring)
Milan - season 49
Moscow - season 5
Munich - season and festival 43
NYC - season 108
Paris - season 80
Pesaro - festival
Prague - season
Ravenna - festival
Salzburg - season and festival 2
San Francisco - season 15
Santa Fe - festival 11
Seattle - season 18
St.Petersburg - season 4
Valencia - season 2
Verona - festival
Vienna - season 74
Zürich - season 31

2012 5
2013 13
2014 7

Spring/Fall 14
Summer 10
Winter 8

Oh wow, with ONE voter left (by now I gave up on getting superhorn to cast his vote), the race is dramatically close again, with New York City leading by only 3 points!!!

The destination of the convention is in the hands of AmericanGesamtkunstwerk.

Here are the scenarios: If he places NYC ahead of London, the former wins, which also happens if he places NYC any higher than 4th place in his list, regardless of London's position. If he places London first and NYC below his 4th choice, London wins. With London first and NYC 4th we'd have a tie.

Suspenseful!!!

I'll PM him again inviting him to cast his votes. The suspense is killing me!


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

AmericanGesamtkunstwerk, if you vote for London 1st and NYC well below, I will kiss you. Or not kiss you, whatever your preference is.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

*American*Gesamtkunstwerk, let's keep it American! 

Also, Polednice hates Wagner. YEAH. He's one of those.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Couchie said:


> *American*Gesamtkunstwerk, let's keep it American!
> 
> Also, Polednice hates Wagner. YEAH. He's one of those.


Pff.

Come on AmericanGesamtkunstwerk, get out a little, explore the world, don't stay in an American shell.

Besides, who would you rather meet? Some horrifically genetically modified lime, or a handsome, dashing, Vampyre piggy?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Arggghhh, the fact that AmericanGesamtkunstwerk is not responding is driving me crazy! I can't handle the suspense any longer!


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Arggghhh, the fact that AmericanGesamtkunstwerk is not responding is driving me crazy! I can't handle the suspense any longer!


If it helps any, I'll go ahead and vote . . . for Baden-Baden.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Arggghhh, the fact that AmericanGesamtkunstwerk is not responding is driving me crazy! I can't handle the suspense any longer!


Yes, but it gives us more time to lobby!

AG, I will give you Wagner CDs! Any that I have that you need! The best Polednice can offer you is Brahms drink coasters.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Much hotter ladies in the US than the UK. Who would you rather be seated next to at the opera, 









or










The choice is clear.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

^LOL
But I fear the backlash.
The Brits are about to counter-attack with pics of fat Americans.
Incoming... 4...3...2...1...


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

Hmm, since Alma came up with the idea shouldn't his vote count twice?

DCome on Big Apple!)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I'm thinking... Here is a copy of AmericanGesamtkunstwerk's post:

"frankly, i'm saving money for college, two years down the line i'll be in the THICK of college, and even so, i'll likely have so many projects to juggle that I couldn't lose the few days.

but I mean if its a Wagner-centric kind of thing i can't say no!!! hahah i'm kiddin. mostly.

put me down as an "e) 10-15%", much more likely if it ends up being NYC."

1) The member does indicate clearly and unequivocally a preference for NYC
2) The member states that he/she is not that interested in attending, as he/she will be in the thick of college, busy with projects, and quotes financial strain

It is highly unlikely that given what the member said, he/she would suddenly vote for London. Besides, the member has not responded to two PMs soliciting a vote.

So the issue now is whether or not we should continue to wait for this member to vote, or just call it a day and end the voting process. I'd be for waiting if the member had been ambiguous in regards to a city or in any way had indicated some interest in an European city; but come on, the way he/she phrased it, it appears quite impossible that this member would suddenly change the contest in favor of London.

I don't see much sense in waiting longer.

All members who have manifested specific interest for the convention and have mentioned cities, have voted, except for Superhorn and AmericanGesamtkunstwerk. Superhorn merely told us about nice experiences in NYC, never said if he'd attend our convention, and never replied to repeated attempts to bring him back. AmericanGesamtkunstwerk on the other hand did post a *clear* preference and gave solid reasons which seem to preclude a sudden change of mind, and these reasons do favor the leading city, therefore waiting shouldn't change the outcome, and seems pointless. We did give him/her an opportunity to restate his/her case, to no avail.

Arguments have been made for a runoff vote for the top 5 cities, by one member. Counter-arguments have been put forward by another member. Opinions from others on the specific issue of a runoff have been requested, but nobody else issued a word about it. For me, the two members' opposing views on this cancel each other.

Arguments have also been issued about the European vote being diluted among several cities and NYC collecting most American votes. I don't think this is entirely accurate since it is partially cancelled by the fact that some American voters did rank European cities ahead of NYC (e.g., just out of memory and without looking back, FragendeFrau and kv466), and other American cities also got votes. It's not NYC's fault that it is a dominant city for matters of culture in the United States; it's rather an asset, and the choice of this city shouldn't be penalized for this reason.

At this time, I think it is fair to declare New York City the winner, although by a narrow margin.

Still, a win is a win. If a football team wins a game 24-23 (just like what happened to my losing Alma Mater school last weekend), the win still counts as a win, narrow or not).

Does anybody strongly object?

In the absence of strong and well argued objections, I'm prepared to move to say that:

*New York City, Spring or Fall of 2013* 

will be the site and time of our first TC Classical Opera Convention, as the fair winner of a democratic process in which everybody who wanted to have a voice, did.

The lesson learned from NYC's narrow win is that it will be fair to commit to an alternation, and to hold the second TC Classical Opera Convention, likely to happen in 2015 (or maybe, if people love the first one and it proves to be a big success, as early as 2014), in Europe, likely in London who was the honorable runner-up. Closer to the date of the second convention, I propose that we hold a vote with only European cities being eligible for nomination.

If anybody has a strong objection, speak up now, or hold it inside forever. I'm sure Polednice and amfortas will delight us with some funny statements (I'm not being sarcastic, I truly love their posts), but in the spirit of the original post that indicated that this is a serious matter, I'll only consider as _well argued objections _those that contest the method, not the city.

Putting down the group's choice - NYC - as not being ideal in some way would not be a valid objection that would lead me to try to reverse the result of the voting, because the members have already spoken. More people ranked NYC higher than any other destination, and these are opinions of members in good standing who shouldn't be second-guessed since they have a right to their opinion.

So if someone has valid objections about counting errors, severe methodological flaws, etc., I'll hear them, but otherwise, I think NYC has won it fair and square, and we should move on to other aspects of our plans (such as, divide responsibilities to make it happen - establish committees to look into hotels, tickets, programming, infrastructure, etc).


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Nevermind, stupid post.

Hoorah New York in all its updated yorkitude.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

:clap:

This is great news - I will get to visit NY & in the company of good friends. 

I know 2013 is a long way off but I would like to register my preference for Fall 2013, unless the trip is held after 1st April 2013. My Annual Leave is calculated per Financial Year and I have already booked several events during the 2012/2013 'leave year'. My leave entitlement is quite small & I'd need to keep 7 - 10 days in reserve for the NY trip.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Fair's fair! Hopefully I'll see you folks in London, 2014 instead.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

sospiro said:


> :clap:
> 
> This is great news - I will get to visit NY & in the company of good friends.
> 
> I know 2013 is a long way off but I would like to register my preference for Fall 2013, unless the trip is held after 1st April 2013. My Annual Leave is calculated per Financial Year and I have already booked several events during the 2012/2013 'leave year'. My leave entitlement is quite small & I'd need to keep 7 - 10 days in reserve for the NY trip.


Well your attendance will certainly be required so although I'd prefer a Spring 2013 or Fall 2012 date (due to my eagerness for the event and the entirely coincidental fact that there would be a Dessay Giulio Cesare to choose from at a Spring 2013 date, whereas the Dessay I Puritani won't be until Spring 2014), I too will vote for a Fall 2013 convention 

So imo the next order of business should be establishing the general time frame (spring, fall, winter), then length of meetup (are we doing 3 days, 7 days, 10? Obviously any one person could stay for longer or shorter lengths of time but a ballpark figure where we can reasonably expect a significant number of attendees would be ideal), and then get to the specific dates. I suppose after that would be a good time to start hammering out an itinerary of operas and activities, though of course the operas will play a part in choosing the general time frame as well.

Sadly, the Met Futures page has been taken down and the last update has a list of the season but lacks info on dates for the operas. Still, it might be worth taking a look: http://parterre.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/brad_cache.pdf


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Winter is not in contention since during the preliminary voting phase, spring/fall prevailed.

10 days is of course too long. 3 days can give us four performances at the Met: Thursday evening, Friday evening, Saturday matinee, Saturday evening. The Met doesn't schedule operas for Sundays, which might be a good day for people to fly back to their homes. So I suggest that the convention should end on a Sunday mid-day and officially start on a Thursday afternoon, but of course we should also have some additional programing for people who want to come earlier than Thursday. For the early schedule, we might be able to insert other operas from the other 10 opera companies that operate in New York City, backstage visits, museum visits, Carnegie Hall concerts, The New York Philharmonic, City Ballet, an off-Broadway play, etc. And of course, the Met does often have operas on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays as well, although not always a full schedule for one given week. Depending on the week, it is not excluded that early birds would be able to attend at least 6 Met performances, not to forget the other companies.

I think it would be very interesting to schedule at least one opera by another company. Some of these have small intimate venues with less known artists but with very passionate people who love opera, and given their smaller scale, interaction with the artists may be easier to get, making for a very interesting time - we could contact them in advance, introduce ourselves and talk about the international diffusion of Talk Classical, and see if they'd be interested in putting together a talk/lecture/chat with multiple artists, backstage visit, rehearsals; counting on the fact that our reports of the experience would help them out in terms of international visibility.

I don't think we need to put duration of the convention to a vote. We should be flexible, establish a week-long schedule, and those who have less time and don't want to be paying for several nights of hotel might just come for the official events Thursday through Saturday, while others might come for the whole week.

Me, I'll likely be there for the full week and available to help early birds out.

A decision for Fall or Spring however does deserve a vote. 

We have sospiro and rgz asking for Fall. I'll add my vote to Fall as well because I want to be certain that adorable sospiro will join us.

So far, Fall 2013 3; Spring 2013 0. Please add your votes.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Polednice said:


> Fair's fair! Hopefully I'll see you folks in London, 2014 instead.


You'll met up with some of us vagabonds in 2012 if you aim your trotters towards Londinium for Les Troyens


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Winter is not in contention since during the preliminary voting phase, spring/fall prevailed.
> 
> 10 days is of course too long. 3 days can give us four performances at the Met: Thursday evening, Friday evening, Saturday matinee, Saturday evening. The Met doesn't schedule operas for Sundays, which might be a good day for people to fly back to their homes. So I suggest that the convention should end on a Sunday mid-day and officially start on a Thursday afternoon, but of course we should also have some additional programing for people who want to come earlier than Thursday. For the early schedule, we might be able to insert other operas from the other 10 opera companies that operate in New York City, backstage visits, museum visits, Carnegie Hall concerts, The New York Philharmonic, City Ballet, an off-Broadway play, etc. And of course, the Met does often have operas on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays as well, although not always a full schedule for one given week. Depending on the week, it is not excluded that early birds would be able to attend at least 6 Met performances, not to forget the other companies.


Apologies. I misled you regarding my estimate of 10 days. I included my travelling days of which there would be at least two or maybe three.



Almaviva said:


> I think it would be very interesting to schedule at least one opera by another company. Some of these have small intimate venues with less known artists but with very passionate people who love opera, and given their smaller scale, interaction with the artists may be easier to get, making for a very interesting time - we could contact them in advance, introduce ourselves and talk about the international diffusion of Talk Classical, and see if they'd be interested in putting together a talk/lecture/chat with multiple artists, backstage visit, rehearsals; counting on the fact that our reports of the experience would help them out in terms of international visibility.


How good does that sound??!! Some fantastic ideas there.



Almaviva said:


> I don't think we need to put duration of the convention to a vote. We should be flexible, establish a week-long schedule, and those who have less time and don't want to be paying for several nights of hotel might just come for the official events Thursday through Saturday, while others might come for the whole week.
> 
> Me, I'll likely be there for the full week and available to help early birds out.
> 
> ...


Adorable? Something fishy going on here. :lol:



Almaviva said:


> So far, Fall 2013 3; Spring 2013 0. Please add your votes.


:tiphat:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I'm sure Polednice and amfortas will delight us with some funny statements (I'm not being sarcastic, I truly love their posts) . . .


Oh great, performance anxiety . . .

Actually, all I will add is that a New York (rather than European) location makes me *slightly* more likely to attend. So I will continue to follow the planning with interest.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I will have to skip New York, but will aim for Troyens.


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

sospiro said:


> You'll met up with some of us vagabonds in 2012 if you aim your trotters towards Londinium for Les Troyens


 I would also love to see Troyens! If I can get tickets ... Which date did you choose?


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## ooopera (Jul 27, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> So far, Fall 2013 3; Spring 2013 0. Please add your votes.


My vote: Fall.

New York definitly reduce the chance of my visit. But still - I would like to see New York and MET, therefore I'll try max to make it happen. But right now I can't promise anything.

But I like the idea. A lot! Me, myself and I in New York.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

I vote for Fall 2013. Looks as though you're going to have an informal London get-together this spring, too! I'm looking forward to enjoying that vicariously.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

As an added note, 2013 is both the Wagner Bicentennial AND the Verdi Bicentennial...


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

I'll vote Fall.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Fall 6, spring 0


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

I will vote Fall 2013, although as I've said before, October and November sadly are times when I am fully booked at work and it is well-nigh impossible to even take a long weekend. But I do have a schedule of meetings that far in advance so I'll have a look when I get back to work and we get down to specifics.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> As an added note, 2013 is both the Wagner Bicentennial AND the Verdi Bicentennial...


Yes, I'm planning to go to Italy at some point during the Verdi festivities, but it shouldn't overlap. Most of the events in Italy should be in the Summer, no?


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

I vote Fall.


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

Wow! It's starting to sound unaimous!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Fall 8, Spring 0. Indeed, statistically speaking, it sounds unlikely that Spring would recover from such a huge deficit. With some 20 members who have manifested interest for the convention, Fall is close to breaking the 50% barrier, especially if we consider that some of these 20 members have said they won't be crossing the Atlantic so they may not even vote for the season which would set the 50% point lower than 10. I'll wait a little longer but it seems like soon we'll be announcing that the convention will happen in the Fall of 2013 in NYC.

By the way, let me clarify something.

Since the convention is still 2 years away, it is of course not excluded that many other TC members, existing or future, will join our plans. But these members won't have the possibility of changing the vote retroactively, because planning can't be subject to ongoing uncertainty. 

Once we announce the final season (and we have already announced the city) these plans get written in stone. People who join later will have to join already knowing that the 1st TC Opera convention will happen in NYC, in 2013, and during the season that we're about to pick, and won't be given the opportunity to advocate for any last minute change in plans.

Of course, they'll still be able to influence final dates, performances to attend, hotels, programming, etc., that is, everything that hasn't been decided yet. But I believe that the right way to do this, is that every time the existing interested members collectively decide something, it gets decided for good.

Since this will be but the first convention and I hope that it will generated a string of conventions at least every other year for the many years to come, people will be welcome to participate in future selections of their preferred cities and seasons, but what's been already done is final.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I vote fall!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Fall ....................


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

What the others said.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

OK, Fall is 11-0, out of reach, Spring can't catch it.

Therefore, it is official:

The first TC Opera Convention is scheduled for the Fall of 2013, in New York City


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

This being said, people can start saving money, thinking of vacation days, etc.
But we are so far from it (2 years) that we won't be able to advance the plans very much for the time being, since the Met Season for 2013/2014 hasn't been announced yet, and bookings of hotels and flights are usually not possible until within one year of the trip.

Does anybody suggest other things we might do in the meantime? Example, write to the other opera companies, introduce ourselves, see what they'd be willing to do for us, etc?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I'd be interested in hearing our options for hotels in the area, and a ballpark $ figure for accommodations, even if we can't book them yet.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> I'd be interested in hearing our options for hotels in the area, and a ballpark $ figure for accommodations, even if we can't book them yet.


I'll work on this when I have a moment, and will post a report. Quite busy today, may happen a few days from today.


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## CountessAdele (Aug 25, 2011)

This is so exciting! I can't wait to meet everybody!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

CountessAdele said:


> This is so exciting! I can't wait to meet everybody!


Too bad it's still 2 years away... I'd like to have it next month!


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Do opera buffs sing _outside_ the shower? I was just subjected to a mental vignette: The bunch of you in a large hall somewhere, each singing his/her favorite aria. Gadfry.

:devil:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Do opera buffs sing _outside_ the shower? I was just subjected to a mental vignette: The bunch of you in a large hall somewhere, each singing his/her favorite aria. Gadfry.
> 
> :devil:


I wish. My voice is not up to the task of singing anywhere other than my shower.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Do opera buffs sing _outside_ the shower? I was just subjected to a mental vignette: The bunch of you in a large hall somewhere, each singing his/her favorite aria. Gadfry.
> 
> :devil:


That would be eeehrm... interesting to say the least.


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