# What Are The Best and/or Your Favorite Puccini Operas?



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

We have a poll about Verdi, so why not have one about Puccini also?  Please vote for a maximum of three operas ("Il Trittico" counts for one if you would include it).


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Very difficult for me. The only ones that I didn't consider voting for are *Le Villi* and *Edgar* because I've never heard them and *La Rondine* because despite a few good moments it's not up to the standard of the others IMO.

I didn't vote for *La Fanciulla del West* because I'm not sure if I would love it as much as I do without the great Tebaldi recording. I love *Manon Lescaut*, but I didn't vote for it because despite the great music the last act doesn't make any sense to me (how did they end up in that desert?).

Anyway, I ended up voting for *La Boheme*, *Madama Butterfly* and *Turandot*. If I could have voted for four *Tosca* would have been one of my choices.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Great idea.

My only concern here is that by voting for _Il Trittico_, I'm really only voting for _Suor Angelica_, but that seems inescapable as it would hardly be fair to list the members of the trilogy separately (as well as being very much what Giacomo would not have wanted, I'm sure).

At this exciting stage of the contest, it looks like a runaway victory for_ La Boheme_, which is currently polling twice as many votes as its nearest rivals!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Great idea.
> 
> My only concern here is that by voting for _Il Trittico_, I'm really only voting for _Suor Angelica_, but that seems inescapable as it would hardly be fair to list the members of the trilogy separately (as well as being very much what Giacomo would not have wanted, I'm sure).
> 
> At this exciting stage of the contest, it looks like a runaway victory for_ La Boheme_, which is currently polling twice as many votes as its nearest rivals!


That's because we're in love with Mirella's Mimi, Elgarian. 

I would have listed the *Il Trittico* operas seperately but we're only allowed a maximum of ten choices in these polls. Listing those three under the *Il Trittico* banner made it possible to include each one of Puccini's operas in the poll.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

I'll cast my vote for La Boheme ... I have only heard two operas in my lifetime - Wagner's Tannhauser was the other. I have La Boheme on a LP from the 60's. 

jhar26- If you would like additional choices added, please PM me with the list and I can add them to the current poll


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Krummhorn said:


> jhar26- If you would like additional choices added, please PM me with the list and I can add them to the current poll


No, I guess there's an argument to be made for listing the *Il Trittico* operas seperately, and if possible I probably would have done so initially - but in hindsight I agree with Elgarian that it's best to respect Puccini's wishes and view them as three chapters of one work. Even though I fail to see any connection between the three, I must say.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Not sure if this is the best place to say this, but it seems relevant to the idea of polling for the top spot.

It's about _Tosca_. I voted for it in my top three because the music is so utterly ravishing, and yet ... is anyone else troubled by the incongruity between the incredibly beautiful music and the utter bleakness of the events that unfold? In Tosca, everything that could go wrong, does go wrong; it explores cruelty and inhumanity to the utmost, and leaves us with no hope. Scarpia may be dead at the end, but his dreadful influence didn't stop with his death. There was no way out, and never was.

Snigger at my naivete if you must, but ... if the plot of _Tosca_ had permitted some sort of hope at the end (not necessarily a happy ending, but one that allowed even a ***** of light into the darkness), I know I would love it to distraction. As it is, my pleasure in it is always tempered by this discrepancy between the beauty of what's being heard, and the horror of what's actually happening. Am I alone in this?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

If I could do this after the fashion of the old Illinois legislature "cummulative vote," I would have given _two_ votes for *La Bohème* and one vote for *Turandot*. Since I can't, though, it wound up being one each. Turandot joins Verdi's _Il Trovatore_ in really testing the limits of how much plot aggravation I'm willing to tolerate for the sake of great music, however. That, at least as much as anything else, is why I can't regard it quite as highly as _Bohème_.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Not sure if this is the best place to say this, but it seems relevant to the idea of polling for the top spot.
> 
> It's about _Tosca_. I voted for it in my top three because the music is so utterly ravishing, and yet ... is anyone else troubled by the incongruity between the incredibly beautiful music and the utter bleakness of the events that unfold? In Tosca, everything that could go wrong, does go wrong; it explores cruelty and inhumanity to the utmost, and leaves us with no hope. Scarpia may be dead at the end, but his dreadful influence didn't stop with his death. There was no way out, and never was.
> 
> Snigger at my naivete if you must, but ... if the plot of _Tosca_ had permitted some sort of hope at the end (not necessarily a happy ending, but one that allowed even a ***** of light into the darkness), I know I would love it to distraction. As it is, my pleasure in it is always tempered by this discrepancy between the beauty of what's being heard, and the horror of what's actually happening. Am I alone in this?


To me most of the music in *Tosca* sounds dark and gloomy and seems to predict an unhappy ending. Puccini is no stranger to unhappy endings of course. *Manon Lescaut*, *La Boheme*, *Suor Angelica* and *Madama Butterfly* all end with the death of the prima donna. *Turandot* lives, but the sweet girl Liu dies. Puccini is a bit of a sadist really. He really pulls out all the stops in *Tosca* though - I agree.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> To me most of the music in *Tosca* sounds dark and gloomy and seems to predict an unhappy ending. Puccini is no stranger to unhappy endings of course. *Manon Lescaut*, *La Boheme*, *Suor Angelica* and *Madama Butterfly* all end with the death of the prima donna. *Turandot* lives, but the sweet girl Liu dies. Puccini is a bit of a sadist really. He really pulls out all the stops in *Tosca* though - I agree.


It's not the unhappy ending that troubles me - most operas end badly, after all. But the plots of _La Boheme_, _Manon Lescaut_, and _Butterfly_ are _tragic_, not horrible; and _Suor Angelica_ may not really be tragic at all, depending on how we interpret Angelica's experiences at the end. _Tosca_, though, isn't tragic in the same bittersweet way. It's actually horrible. It's about betrayal and vicious self-centred cruelty, and the failure of all hope. The _Tosca_ music does indeed suggest an unhappy ending, but it's still exquisitely beautiful. I think I'm talking about a failure of artistic unity. The music, magnificent though it is, doesn't reflect the sheer brutality of the unfolding events.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> It's not the unhappy ending that troubles me - most operas end badly, after all. But the plots of _La Boheme_, _Manon Lescaut_, and _Butterfly_ are _tragic_, not horrible; and _Suor Angelica_ may not really be tragic at all, depending on how we interpret Angelica's experiences at the end. _Tosca_, though, isn't tragic in the same bittersweet way. It's actually horrible. It's about betrayal and vicious self-centred cruelty, and the failure of all hope. The _Tosca_ music does indeed suggest an unhappy ending, but it's still exquisitely beautiful.


I agree with everything you say here.



> I think I'm talking about a failure of artistic unity. The music, magnificent though it is, doesn't reflect the sheer brutality of the unfolding events.


I see Scarpia as the central character of this opera - he's always a sinister presence even when he's not on stage. There's a feeling of impending doom throughout the opera. So in that sense it prepares the listener for the worst IMO.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> I see Scarpia as the central character of this opera - he's always a sinister presence even when he's not on stage. There's a feeling of impending doom throughout the opera. So in that sense it prepares the listener for the worst IMO.


In the recent Opera North production of _Tosca_, Scarpia's body is never cleared off the stage. It remains there right through to the end, with everyone wandering around as if they can't see it even though we (the audience) can. I presume the idea is to suggest the continuing presence of his malevolence, though it seems a bit odd!

I agree about all the sinister implications in the music; but still, even at its most doom-laden it never stops being magnificent, and that does bother me.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> In the recent Opera North production of _Tosca_, Scarpia's body is never cleared off the stage. It remains there right through to the end, with everyone wandering around as if they can't see it even though we (the audience) can. I presume the idea is to suggest the continuing presence of his malevolence, though it seems a bit odd!


Well, 'odd' is the right word to use in relation to many modern opera productions IMO.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Turandot seems to be the most innovative, so it gets my vote.


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## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

I went for La Boheme mainly for two great soprano roles....

However ignoring the libretto, much like classic FM seem to do , Madama Butterfly or Tosca would be my favorites purely on the music alone.


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## Lang (Sep 30, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> Snigger at my naivete if you must, but ... if the plot of _Tosca_ had permitted some sort of hope at the end (not necessarily a happy ending, but one that allowed even a ***** of light into the darkness), I know I would love it to distraction. As it is, my pleasure in it is always tempered by this discrepancy between the beauty of what's being heard, and the horror of what's actually happening. Am I alone in this?


Sometimes a story without hope can make us a little more introspective; a little more aware of how our own actions can affect others. Another example of a great opera that concludes without hope is Berg's Wozzeck, and again there is a disparity between the events of the opera and the beauty of the music.

But then there is, I think, a certain disparity in much music that is tragic. Hopelessness, despair or brutality can be conveyed by music that is beautiful, or exciting. A good example of the latter is Mars from The Planets, where brutality is conveyed by means of exciting music.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

I went for Turandot and Mme. B. I wanted to push the Tosca button too but there is just not enough in it to compare to the other two.

I think Elgarians point about a pesemistic ending to Tosca is right. After all it is a tragedy. The moral of the tale is very clear. 'Don't get mixed up with gullable, narsicsistic sopranos if you value your life!' The victim is Mario who did nothing wrong except falling in love with Tosca, who didn't deserve to die if it wasn't for the fact that she was the cause of Mario's demise. Scarpia is the most unrewarding role in the whole of Puccini - You sing half the opera, don't get the girl, get killed and then get booed at the curtain call! That's got to be tough!


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

post-minimalist said:


> I think Elgarians point about a pesemistic ending to Tosca is right. After all it is a tragedy. The moral of the tale is very clear. 'Don't get mixed up with gullable, narsicsistic sopranos if you value your life!' The victim is Mario who did nothing wrong except falling in love with Tosca, who didn't deserve to die if it wasn't for the fact that she was the cause of Mario's demise. Scarpia is the most unrewarding role in the whole of Puccini - You sing half the opera, don't get the girl, get killed and then get booed at the curtain call! That's got to be tough!


When I wrote those earlier posts, I was very heavily influenced by having recently seen Opera North's bleak and despairing production - I came away from it with two deeply conflicting impressions: the magnificence of the music, and the hopeless bleakness of the production, which particularly emphasised the wretchedness of the business. For instance, in that production, at the end Tosca doesn't leap to her death as Puccini intended - which does at least represent an existential (or should that be non-existential) choice on her part. No, she's shot through the head, casually, callously, and emotionlessly, by a man in a raincoat; and her body slides down the wall like a rag doll.

So looking back, I think my comments were more driven by a particular production, than by the opera as Puccini conceived it. Well, I shall have another chance to find out. The same production is coming round again later this month, so I shall see how it stands up to a second viewing.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Man! That's a bummer. She doesn't even get the choice of killing herself! You know the reason that she jumps so eagerly from the battlements is to persue and persecute Scarpia! It's the catharsis of the whole character of Tosca - finally she does 'the right thing'!


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## ecg_fa (Nov 10, 2008)

I voted for Butterfly, Tosca & La Boheme. I really do like those the most. Next would
be Manon Lascaut, then close between Rondine & Turandot, both of which I like parts of.
then Trittico, which I also like parts of a lot, but uneven to me overall. I've also never seen Edgar or Villi-- heard 'em but music not to me up to the others.

Ed


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

The most surprising thing to me about this poll so far is that there isn't a single vote for _Manon Lescaut_. Not that I think that it's as great as the big four, but it comes very close in my opinion. I'm glad that _La Fanciulla del West_ got a vote though. Because it lacks the big arias that his other operas are famous for it's maybe Puccini's most underrated work, but it's very good and gets better with each listen.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

jhar26 said:


> The most surprising thing to me about this poll so far is that there isn't a single vote for _Manon Lescaut_.


It's a funny thing, but it's somehow never 'clicked' for me. I don't understand how, exactly, but I think it has quite a lot to do with my overwhelming fondness of Massenet's _Manon_ - so I can't seem to listen to Puccini's version without wishing it were Massenet's. I'm aware that doesn't make much sense, but it seems to be what happens.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Elgarian said:


> It's a funny thing, but it's somehow never 'clicked' for me. I don't understand how, exactly, but I think it has quite a lot to do with my overwhelming fondness of Massenet's _Manon_ - so I can't seem to listen to Puccini's version without wishing it were Massenet's. I'm aware that doesn't make much sense, but it seems to be what happens.


I can understand that and I like the Massenet opera as well. But the difference I guess is that I was familiar with the Puccini opera years before I got to know the Massenet. And the Puccini opera isn't perfect in that a lot of the story isn't included in the opera. What happened between acts one and two warrants an extra scene in my opinion, and how did Manon and Des Greux all of a sudden end up in that desert in the fourth act? The fourth act isn't necessary - act three would have been the perfect (and even a sort of) happy ending, even though I must admit that act four has some great music


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## maestrowick (Feb 23, 2009)

hmmm....Nessum Dorma is my favorite Puccini aria. I think texture-wise, I like La Boheme better.


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## dominique (Sep 22, 2012)

I think that in 'Tosca' it doesn't really matter if she is shot or if she commits suicide, it is quite clear that there was no way to survive this. Of course it is horrible and bleak but the melodramatic excesses aside it is a very realistic and timeless opera –things like these do happen. I am from a country where human right abuses by police and paramilitary groups are daily routine and Tosca really seems like a contemporary artwork to me. And there is a touch of hope, Puccini seems to say that the most precious things in life are the simple everyday things with your loved ones. 

My favourite Puccini operas are Tosca, La Boheme and M.Butterfly. I think that they form a kind of unofficial trilogy. Each one touches an important and thorny issue (state sanctioned violence, misconceptions about the class issues, sex tourism and colonialism). In each of these operas we watch several young and innocent people losing their illusions about the world as they have a terrible crash on reality. For me all three are operas about maturity, with the heroes realising (before the tragic endings) that they can not create a safe and secure inner world by simply ignoring the outside reality.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Turandot is Puccini brightest masterpiece, too bad it was left incomplete at his death.

I voted the Trittico and nothing more because I think that Il Tabarro and Gianni Schicchi are two often underappreciated gems.
It is too hard for me to choose between Tosca,Madame Butterfly or La Boheme.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

A superb composer for the voice. Not necessarily for the whole thing and the Orchestra, in particular. 
I believe, following the vocal lines, his Operas are all of great interest, from the very first (the "poor" Villi) to the majestic Turandot. Otherwise, I don't care that much for any one of them as a whole. 
Sometimes, I feel a vacuum in the whole concept of the work (La Boheme), or the orchestral treatment (e.g. Trittico) or going over the top (Turandot), even brilliantly, or getting a bit trivial (La Rondine), or too mundane (Manon Lescaut).
In general, a composer to cherish him in every single work of his for some extremely memorable tunes, exquisite arias and splendid theatrical scenes. All these can be found in every work of his. Just note: the most famous tune (o mio babbino caro) can be found in the least interesting of his works!

Principe

Principe


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

principe said:


> A superb composer for the voice. Not necessarily for the whole thing and the Orchestra, in particular.
> I believe, following the vocal lines, his Operas are all of great interest, from the very first (the "poor" Villi) to the majestic Turandot. Otherwise, I don't care that much for any one of them as a whole.
> Sometimes, I feel a vacuum in the whole concept of the work (La Boheme), or the orchestral treatment (e.g. Trittico) or going over the top (Turandot), even brilliantly, or getting a bit trivial (La Rondine), or too mundane (Manon Lescaut).
> In general, a composer to cherish him in every single work of his for some extremely memorable tunes, exquisite arias and splendid theatrical scenes. All these can be found in every work of his. Just note: the most famous tune (*o mio babbino caro*) can be found in *the least interesting of his works*!
> ...


Blasphemy!



As a side note:
One thing that always **** me off is when a soprano sing that aria as a love song.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Not unless she's in love with Daddy . . .


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Bardamu, I said the "most famous", not the best. 
To my surprise, I discovered that, even in remote areas of this globe, quite a few people know, sing, whistle or play it on the piano. Some ladies even seem to be moved actually. Men also appear to adore it.
If some (maybe quite a few) people believe it is a love song, blame the music, not the soprano. If you listen to the music only, without any knowledge of the words...one can be easily mislead. My wife cannot possibly believe that this is not a "love song".
Anyway, Puccini was not the perfect composer. However, a wonderful one, particularly for the voice.

Principe


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

I have heard Tosca, La Boheme, Madame Butterfly and Turandot so far. I love all of these operas, but my most recent exposure was to Turandot. I think this one is the best yet that I've heard. The music reminds me somewhat of Debussy and even Bartok -- weirdly modal (influenced by Chinese music, although it still sounds like a Western pastiche) and free-flowing. This opera is almost like a fairy tale, not at all akin to the realism of Boheme or Tosca. If you tried to judge it based on standards of realism, the plot would sound absurd, but if you take it as a wholly metaphorical fairy tale poem, it has moments of great beauty.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

My favourite Puccini is actually La Rondine. Just the first two acts, mind. The third act is rather horrible.
But I think Puccini wrote some of his best music, and certainly used the orchestra in a masterful way, for the first two acts. But then again I rather like conversation pieces.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

principe said:


> Bardamu, I said the "most famous", not the best.


I was more objecting that you called Gianni Schicchi "the less interesting of his works" (obviously in a joking kind of way since everyone has his own tastes).
In the twentieth century Opera lost the laughs...


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Bardamu said:


> I was more objecting that you called Gianni Schicchi "the less interesting of his works" (obviously in a joking kind of way since everyone has his own tastes).
> In the twentieth century Opera lost the laughs...


With two world wars it was easy to kill the laughs


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

principe said:


> If some (maybe quite a few) people believe it is a love song, blame the music, not the soprano. If you listen to the music only, without any knowledge of the words...one can be easily mislead. My wife cannot possibly believe that this is not a "love song" Principe


Well what is a love song.... True, the music can be misleading, but it is because Lauretta is of course full of feelings for her lover that she is not addressing to her father. These feelings are what we hear in the music.

Puccini has some great aria's which have become famous on their own and that is sometimes too bad, beacuse they loose some power without the full context. Also, in populair culture we hear them everywhere, performed with (often) terrible singers on some tv non-talent hitshow or whatever. I find this very annoying.



principe said:


> Anyway, Puccini was not the perfect composer. However, a wonderful one, particularly for the voice.
> Principe


Yes, with an amazing gift for melody.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

I can't say that I know all opera's by Puccini very well. So far I'd say my favourite is Tosca. I still have to see a performance live.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

principe said:


> Bardamu, I said the "most famous", not the best.
> Anyway, Puccini was not the perfect composer.
> 
> Principe


I think Pucinni had the same thought about himself. He was pretty much like an engineer rather than a scientist. He knew where to get the right tools and how to work with them to create dramma. And that's awsome! If only i could be as good in my work as Pucinni was in his...


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Loving Gianni Schicci at the moment. Watching the met broadcast on youtube. Very good performance, enjoyable.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I voted for Madama Butterfly, Turandot and La fanciulla del west. The 3 operas about far and strange lands. The Puccini's music works like the dreams, and in these operas I dream of magic travels, I can imagine the sensation of being in these misteriouses lands...
I like the best Madama Butterfly, is the first Puccini's opera I've never heard, and I was strongly impressed, and it's still my Puccini's number one. Next, I tried with La Boheme, I could listen only half hour and I thought that was so boring and stupid, and I thought that I didn'tlike Puccini, For a lot of time I liked only Madama Butterfly. Many years later I tried again with Turandot, I liked it so much! I was excited! Tried again with La Boheme, the first half hour was boring again...but then when came the aria "che gelida manina" the music was overwhelming! I listened to all the Puccini's operas but Edgar, Villi and La Rondine. La fanciulla del west, is right now one of my favorites, I like so much the duets from the begining of act 2.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

For myself i love so many of them. I agree i have a huge soft spot for Madame Butterfly. I like an older sounding Pinkerton though. Giuseppe Campora was ideal in his recording with Renata Tebaldi. I also truly love the Price/Di Stefano recording - the sound is just gorgeous. I have a soft sport for Elenor Steber and enjoy her recording of the role too...with Richard Tucker as an ardent Pinkerton.

*La Boheme -* so many versions i like. Of course there is the Bjorling/De los Angeles classic. I prefer the Pavarotti/Freni cd conducted by karajan. I did not like it at first, but now i love it. These two old friends just click and Freni sings the part so beautifully. What i like about Pavarotti is he never seems to do the bad things some tenors do....ala Corelli/Del Monaco.

*Manon Lescau*t - just listen to Bjorling and Licia Albanese and you will never forget it i promise. One of the greatest recordings ever - period! Don't bother with others.

*La Fanicuilla Del West*. Has to be the Tebaldi/Del Monaco set for me. The sound is just so beautiful.

*La Rondin*e - again, so melancholic and beautiful. I really love this opera.

*Tosca *- well for me it is Price/Di Stefano again. Terrifying and just gorgeous.

*Turandot* - more problematic in terms of recording. I would probably listen to the Del Monaco/Inga Borkh cd.

I find Turandot and Tosca don't have much 'sag' -well Tosca at the start maybe. What i like is that you can just listen to 'chunks' of them and it is great. Its not like Berg, Janacek or Wagner where it is more difficult to 'dip in'.

Puccini et al wrote some beautiful music and lyrics- heartbreaking and so easy to adapt to modern settings. I love them all.


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Yes, Puccini wrote "some beautiful music". I don't think he wrote any libretto himself. "Heartbreaking", in some or more cases, yes; "so easy to adapt to modern settings"? I would love to see how e.g. Turandot can be "adapted" to our modern trivialities, Yashin, let alone "La Fanciula"...
Anyway, for all his shortcomings, only for the gift of melody, Puccini pass any test of time, criticism, objections and some more.

Principe


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

principe said:


> Yes, Puccini wrote "some beautiful music". I don't think he wrote any libretto himself. "Heartbreaking", in some or more cases, yes; "so easy to adapt to modern settings"? I would love to see how e.g. Turandot can be "adapted" to our modern trivialities, Yashin, let alone "La Fanciula"...
> Anyway, for all his shortcomings, only for the gift of melody, Puccini pass any test of time, criticism, objections and some more.
> 
> Principe


Certainly some of his operas are more problematic to update than others (like, as you very rightly point out, Turandot and Fanciulla del West (although Fanciulla would be easier to update than Turandot, methinks)), but there are some very good updated Puccini productions like the Zürich Tosca with Der Jonas and Emily Magee and Stefan Herheim's Oslo La Boheme (which is one of Herheim's finest productions to date, I think) with Marita Sølberg and Diego Torre.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Yashin said:


> *Turandot* - more problematic in terms of recording. I would probably listen to the Del Monaco/Inga Borkh cd.


If I may suggest try the Cigna/Merli/Olivero version conducted by Ghione in 1938:





It's my personal favorite.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Bardamu said:


> If I may suggest try the Cigna/Merli/Olivero version conducted by Ghione in 1938:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What about the Nilsson/Björling/Tebaldi one? That is my favourite.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

principe said:


> I would love to see how e.g. Turandot can be "adapted" to our modern trivialities, Yashin, l*et alone "La Fanciulla"..*.


Time to give Principe a heart attack:lol::


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Is this an "adaptation" (to our modern life world) or a _falsification_? As the latter, it works fine...and it may provide some fun, not a...heart attack at all.

Principe


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Saw a clip of the Oslo La Boheme. Any good? I see they are releasing it on DVD. Mimi is a cancer patient i think. Interesting.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Krummhorn said:


> I'll cast my vote for La Boheme ... I have only heard two operas in my lifetime - Wagner's Tannhauser was the other. I have La Boheme on a LP from the 60's.
> 
> jhar26- If you would like additional choices added, please PM me with the list and I can add them to the current poll


Oh my, I wasn't expecting to hear that from you. I'd have thought that you had listened to more than two operas. No offense.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Yashin said:


> Saw a clip of the Oslo La Boheme. Any good? I see they are releasing it on DVD. Mimi is a cancer patient i think. Interesting.


Yes, it's amazing!


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Aksel said:


> Yes, it's amazing!


Re Oslo Opera House, have any of you been?

View attachment 9004


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> Re Oslo Opera House, have any of you been?
> 
> View attachment 9004


Regularly.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

jhar26 said:


> Anyway, I ended up voting for *La Boheme*, *Madama Butterfly* and *Turandot*. If I could have voted for four *Tosca* would have been one of my choices.


I voted before I read any of the comments, but I came to exactly this conclusion, down to the thought about Tosca!


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Aksel said:


> Yes, it's amazing!


You sure? Saw small clips of it. Is the Rodolfo any good?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Yashin said:


> You sure? Saw small clips of it. Is the Rodolfo any good?


He's all right. I'm not a particularly great fan of him myself, but there are people that really, really like him.
But on the whole the singing is very good, especially the Mimí, Marita Sølberg. And the production is really, really great.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I agree with several of the comments so far about Tosca, that it has a kind of harsh appeal. That's why it was one of the three I voted for. Not to mention that I liked the music in it. I didn't find the music too sappy, like some others had told me when we went to see it.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Aksel said:


> He's all right. I'm not a particularly great fan of him myself, but there are people that really, really like him.
> But on the whole the singing is very good, especially the Mimí, Marita Sølberg. And the production is really, really great.


Ok, thanks for the tip. Will check it out again on youtube and then think about buying it if i see it on my travels. Could do with a decent La Boheme.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Yashin said:


> Ok, thanks for the tip. Will check it out again on youtube and then think about buying it if i see it on my travels. Could do with a decent La Boheme.


A kindly soul has uploaded it onto the Youtubes. Definitely worth checking out. Can't remember the last time I was that moved by an opera production.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Anyone else find it peculiar that there was a 20 year gap between the premiere of Madama Butterfly and Turandot? If you knew nothing about Puccini's biography you'd think that La Boheme, Tosca, Madama Butterfly and Turandot were composed in proximate succession as Tristan, Meistersinger, Gotterdammerung, and Parsifal were; but no, it's La Boheme, Tosca, and Butterfly in quick succession and then Turandot decades later.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

brianwalker said:


> Anyone else find it peculiar that there was a 20 year gap between the premiere of Madama Butterfly and Turandot? If you knew nothing about Puccini's biography you'd think that La Boheme, Tosca, Madama Butterfly and Turandot were composed in proximate succession as Tristan, Meistersinger, Gotterdammerung, and Parsifal were; but no, it's La Boheme, Tosca, and Butterfly in quick succession and then Turandot decades later.


He did also other operas in that gap. Musically, La Fanciulla it to me superior to Butterfly, and should deserve some love too. The problem is the plot for me.

Also in this gap of 20 years or so, we must consider a few thigs:
-Music was changing fast. After the wagnerian bomb exploded, music went all nuts and old music formulas became obsolete and the audience became more demanding. Debussy, Stravinsky and Schonberg were breaking paths in such velocity that composing music started to seem like a job from hell (Thoma Mann's Doktor Faust describes that feeling)

- More imporantly the world was changing:
1- Communism spread all over the world, abolishing everything that was a reference of the aristocracy. Puccini, even in his quiet place in Torre del Lago, felt this opression by the local people;
2- World War I - One of the most terrible moments in the history, which made a deep impact, not just in opera, as well in everything else.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

dionisio said:


> He did also other operas in that gap. Musically, La Fanciulla it to me superior to Butterfly, and should deserve some love too. The problem is the plot for me.
> 
> Also in this gap of 20 years or so, we must consider a few thigs:
> -Music was changing fast. After the wagnerian bomb exploded, music went all nuts and old music formulas became obsolete and the audience became more demanding. Debussy, Stravinsky and Schonberg were breaking paths in such velocity that composing music started to seem like a job from hell (Thoma Mann's Doktor Faust describes that feeling)
> ...


Damn, i forgot another important thing. If one has read Puccini's biography, one knows that he had a major familiar/private problem which lead to the suicide of one of his housemaindens. It was a scandal, it went to trial and Puccini had lots of problems. This episode had a deep impact in Puccini and had him stopped from composing for a while.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

@Aksel: Interesting this Boheme, I will check it out ! Available in 720p, that is very generous. I hope the sound quality is the same standard.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Dongiovanni said:


> @Aksel: Interesting this Boheme, I will check it out ! Available in 720p, that is very generous. I hope the sound quality is the same standard.


After seeing the opening I stopped. I'm sorry, but this is completely tasteless. How can you start Boheme like this. The scene is completely out of context with the music. I'm sure the idea of the hospital is OK, but not like this.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Dongiovanni said:


> After seeing the opening I stopped. I'm sorry, but this is completely tasteless. How can you start Boheme like this. The scene is completely out of context with the music. I'm sure the idea of the hospital is OK, but not like this.


Interesting. Bizarre. Reminds me of a Calixto Bieito production :lol:

Will have to watch the whole thing to see what other sorts of odd transformations the director made.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

Aksel said:


> A kindly soul has uploaded it onto the Youtubes. Definitely worth checking out. Can't remember the last time I was that moved by an opera production.


I can't remember the last time I was that angry with an opera production. Personally I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than see this again. I think Herheim's arrogance is astounding, and he killed just about every emotional moment there was. I hated that she was dead from the beginning (seemingly "Che Gelida Manina" killed her) and watching the tenor running around being overly upset throughout because Mimi was just a figment of his imagination... Then, the big emotional ending was about as emotional as a rotten, wet fish. Mimi sounds great, as usual, but I thought the production was ******** if I'm being totally honest.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Operafocus said:


> I can't remember the last time I was that angry with an opera production. Personally I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than see this again. I think Herheim's arrogance is astounding, and he killed just about every emotional moment there was. I hated that she was dead from the beginning (seemingly "Che Gelida Manina" killed her) and watching the tenor running around being overly upset throughout because Mimi was just a figment of his imagination... Then, the big emotional ending was about as emotional as a rotten, wet fish. Mimi sounds great, as usual, but I thought the production was ******** if I'm being totally honest.


:lol:

So you didn't care for it?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Operafocus said:


> I can't remember the last time I was that angry with an opera production. Personally I'd rather stick a fork in my eye than see this again. I think Herheim's arrogance is astounding, and he killed just about every emotional moment there was. I hated that she was dead from the beginning (seemingly "Che Gelida Manina" killed her) and watching the tenor running around being overly upset throughout because Mimi was just a figment of his imagination... Then, the big emotional ending was about as emotional as a rotten, wet fish. Mimi sounds great, as usual, but I thought the production was ******** if I'm being totally honest.


Well, we _did_ agree to disagree about it, didn't we?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

hehe I liked it. The thing is that if I have to watch another conventional Boheme I'll be sticking forks in my eyes.


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## Operafocus (Jul 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> :lol: So you didn't care for it?


Not a whole lot, no 



Aksel said:


> Well, we _did_ agree to disagree about it, didn't we?


We did, we did. Marita kinda saved the day, as far as I'm concerned.



mamascarlatti said:


> hehe I liked it. The thing is that if I have to watch another conventional Boheme I'll be sticking forks in my eyes.


Haha, well, I'm not opposed to thinking new, but I could write an essay on the things I didn't like about Herheim's efforts - and the execution of it. Execution, indeed  The actors were falling over each other and seemed terribly dis-organised without any direction at all, and the conductor kept "losing" the orchestra. It was exhausting to watch.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Operafocus said:


> We did, we did. Marita kinda saved the day, as far as I'm concerned.


She most certainly did. Did you see her recent Giulietta a few weeks ago here in Oslo? So much gorgeous singing.


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

La Boheme.

The cancer treatment almost ruined what is Puccini's merriest opera.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> La Boheme.
> 
> The cancer treatment almost ruined what is Puccini's *merriest opera*.


Really?

Really?


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Really?
> 
> Really?


This:



Dongiovanni said:


> I think SerbenthumInDerMusik has a different definition of the "feel good" concept.
> 
> So, what is "feel good" ?


:lol:


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> This:
> 
> :lol:


Well, nothing like a little consumption to get one in the holiday spirit!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Well, nothing like a little consumption to get one in the holiday spirit!


We'd call consumption before the holidays, _conspicuous consumption_. Clearly Puccini was a composer ahead of his time!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> La Boheme.
> 
> The cancer treatment almost ruined what is Puccini's merriest opera.


The cancer ruined Puccini´s health.
A bit tragic to see how few votes Manon Lescaut have since it is an opera that is staged quite often.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Gianni Schicci
First two acts of Turandot


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Whilst Villy ans Edgar are not very high on my list, never get bored by any Puccini opera .


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Very difficult to choose only three, as Puccini is one of my favorite opera composers! The only opera I haven't heard yet (and I already ordered it a while ago) is Edgar.

I ended up voting for La Boheme, Tosca and Fanciulla.

La Boheme because it contains easily the most beautiful love scene in music.
Tosca.. well, because if you don't like Tosca you must be listening to wrong composer all the way.
Fanciulla... I was about to cast my vote for Turandot instead, but Fanciulla is so fascinating... the score is really gripping and adventurous (especially in Act II). The endings of each of the three acts are so moving...

I really wish I could vote for 4 of them so I could include Turandot as well.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Azol said:


> Very difficult to choose only three, as Puccini is one of my favorite opera composers! The only opera I haven't heard yet (and I already ordered it a while ago) is Edgar.
> 
> I ended up voting for La Boheme, Tosca and Fanciulla.
> 
> ...


I did vote all.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Haha, is it "Puccini fan" or "cheating"? You decide


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Voted for Il Trittico and Tosca. Il Trittico because each opera is an individual short masterwork while performed together with the various themes that link them into a cohesive whole they hold even more power. I also voted for Tosca which is my favourite of the remaining works. However, I love all the preceding operas until Manon Lescaut which I like very much but don't love wholly and Le Villi which I also like a bit less than Manon Lescaut but enjoy listening to reasonably regularly. I remain unconvinced for the most part on Edgar though I see why some may like it I feel it has substantial weaknesses compared to his other operas. I decided not to vote for any others as my opinion on the remaining five operas can vary day to day depending on my mood.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Buoso said:


> don't love wholly and Le Villi which I also like a bit less than Manon Lescaut but enjoy listening to reasonably regularly.


One great thing with Le Villi is that it is the Puccini opera were the girl who dies comes back as a ghost to take revenge.
Much of what is happening in Le Villi is told by a speaker and is not on stage. I think if Puccini had made a longer version later it could have been one of his greatest operas.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

I like the story of M. Butterfly best, but the music in Boheme is better by a smidgin.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bardamu said:


> I was more objecting that you *called Gianni Schicchi "the less interesting of his works"* (obviously in a joking kind of way since everyone has his own tastes).
> In the twentieth century Opera lost the laughs...


Schicchi is an opera that demands to be seen as well as heard.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The best of Puccini's operas are Boheme, Tosca, Butterfly and Turandot. If pushed I'd go for Boheme. 
The two best recordings are conducted by Beecham and Karajan

Just to add that Puccini appears to have had a large slice of sadism in him for the way he treats the women (and Mario in Tosca) in his operas.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Just to add that Puccini appears to have had a large slice of sadism in him for the way he treats the women (and Mario in Tosca) in his operas.


I don´t think he was a sadist we are not supposed to like seeing them suffer and he was not unique. The women in Verdi´s operas suffer too and even in contemporary operas. Fact is suffering women that dies a tragic death or having everything solved in a releasing happy ending is a great tool to make good drama. And some of his women have happy endings like Turandot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

My favorite Puccini is probably _Fanciulla_, though I also find _Trittico_ (all three, but especially _Il Tabarro_) rewarding. "Middle period" Puccini is musically subtle and fascinating, and not so sentimental and obvious as the earlier, more popular pieces. Minnie is the only Puccini heroine (except for that man-killer Turandot) whom Puccini doesn't pin to a board and stick pins in and watch slowly flapping her butterfly wings until she expires. It's true that plenty of operatic women suffer and die (as do operatic men), but in Puccini it seems to be the main attraction.

Puccini obviously identified strongly with his women; I believe he was raised in an all-female household, and he must have projected his own feminine sensibilities onto his suffering heroines. It's tempting to see the castrating harpy Turandot as the flip side of those sensibilities, but maybe that's getting too psychoanalytical. All I know is, Minnie's a tough gal who wins at poker, gives law enforcement the finger, and rescues a pure-hearted bandit from a lynch mob while all the cowboys show off their leather at the gay bar. My kind of woman!


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> My favorite Puccini is probably _Fanciulla_, though I also find _Trittico_ (all three, but especially _Il Tabarro_) rewarding. "Middle period" Puccini is musically subtle and fascinating, and not so sentimental and obvious as the earlier, more popular pieces. Minnie is the only Puccini heroine (except for that man-killer Turandot) whom Puccini doesn't pin to a board and stick pins in and watch slowly flapping her butterfly wings until she expires. It's true that plenty of operatic women suffer and die (as do operatic men), but in Puccini it seems to be the main attraction.
> 
> Puccini obviously identified strongly with his women; I believe he was raised in an all-female household, and he must have projected his own feminine sensibilities onto his suffering heroines. It's tempting to see the castrating harpy Turandot as the flip side of those sensibilities, but maybe that's getting too psychoanalytical. All I know is, Minnie's a tough gal who wins at poker, gives law enforcement the finger, and rescues a pure-hearted bandit from a lynch mob while all the cowboys show off their leather at the gay bar. My kind of woman!


I would say Lauretta comes off quite well due to the comic nature of Schicchi. However, whether she is considered the heroine is a different matter. I agree with your point on Il Tabarro being especially rewarding especially due to the moral ambiguity present in the story. Il Tabarro is fascinating because there is no real clear cut villain or protagonist in the story. All 3 of the lead roles feel both protagonist and antagonist to me. We sympathize with the loss experienced by Michele and Georgietta which reveals so much about the preceding half of the opera once it is revealed. We can understand Luigi's infatuation with Georgietta and why he thinks it to be love. The climax of the Opera does not seem to be an unjustified act of villainy as might be seen in other Puccini Operas. One can make arguments that all the characters in Il Tabarro are both villain and hero which makes them for me some of the most realistic of Puccini's characters. This realism could be argued to extend to all parts of Il Trittico with Angelica and the Princess who both seem very real characters as well as most of the Donati family and Schicchi. Common to all the operas is the comparative lack of time we spend with these characters vs how much we feel we know them by the end. By comparison to Tosca (an opera I love) I feel I know the characters of Il Trittico far better in their respective hours in comparison to Cavaradossi of Tosca who seem fleshed out to a degree but less so than those of Il Trittico. This paradox is not unique ability to flesh out characters with very little time spent with them personally comes again in Turandot with the Ministers and Liu feeling to me far more human and relate-able than Turandot or Calaf who seem far harder to sympathize or empathize with.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Buoso said:


> I would say Lauretta comes of quite well due to the comic nature of Schicchi. However, whether she is considered the heroine is a different matter. I agree with your point on Il Tabarro being especially rewarding especially due to the moral ambiguity present in the story. Il Tabarro is fascinating because there is no real clear cut villain or protagonist in the story. All 3 of the lead roles feel both protagonist and antagonist to me. We sympathize with the loss experienced by Michele and Georgietta which reveals so much about the preceding half of the opera once it is revealed. We can understand Luigi's infatuation with Georgietta and why he thinks it to be love. The climax of the Opera does not seem to be an unjustified act of villainy as might be seen in other Puccini Operas. One can make arguments that all the characters in Il Tabarro are both villain and hero which makes them for me some of the most realistic of Puccini's characters. This realism could be argued to extend to all parts of Il Trittico with Angelica and the Princess who both seem very real characters as well as most of the Donati family and Schicchi. Common to all the operas is the comparative lack of time we spend with these characters vs how much we feel we know them by the end. By comparison to Tosca (an opera I love) I feel I know the characters of Il Trittico far better in their respective hours in comparison to Cavaradossi of Tosca who seem fleshed out to a degree but less so than those of Il Trittico. This paradox is not unique ability to flesh out characters with very little time spent with them personally comes again in Turandot with the Ministers and Liu feeling to me far more human and relate-able than Turandot or Calaf who seem far harder to sympathize or empathize with.


Thanks for those great comments on _Il Tabarro._ They make me look forward to my next hearing of it.

_Turandot_ is a fascinating opera musically, but on a human-interest level it does nothing for me. Even Liu, heart-rending as her music is, isn't much of a character, and I'm one of those who find her death, followed by a big love scene and celebration, disturbing and disagreeable. And I do wonder if Puccini would have done more than simply write that finale - some further revisions, perhaps, to make Turandot and Calaf less flat as characters. Not sure if that's possible, though, given the plot.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Thanks for those great comments on _Il Tabarro._ They make me look forward to my next hearing of it.
> 
> _Turandot_ is a fascinating opera musically, but on a human-interest level it does nothing for me. Even Liu, heart-rending as her music is, isn't much of a character, and I'm one of those who find her death, followed by a big love scene and celebration, disturbing and disagreeable. And I do wonder if Puccini would have done more than simply write that finale - some further revisions, perhaps, to make Turandot and Calaf less flat as characters. Not sure if that's possible, though, given the plot.


I find Turandot fascinating a beautiful and unresistable girl that one want so much but is so hard to get.
The fact that Calaf have to struggle for Turandot makes it special for me.
Other girls in operas are more like fantasy ideal women and that is also nice but Turandot feels in some way more real very exaggerated of course.


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## Scarr (Jun 3, 2014)

The last act of Manon Lescaut.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> I find Turandot fascinating a beautiful and unresistable girl that one want so much but is so hard to get.
> The fact that Calaf have to struggle for Turandot makes it special for me.
> Other girls in operas are more like fantasy ideal women and that is also nice but Turandot feels in some way more real very exaggerated of course.


Being beheaded by the woman I've asked to marry me is a little more reality than I'm prepared to cope with. :lol:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Being beheaded by the woman I've asked to marry me is a little more reality than I'm prepared to cope with. :lol:


That is want I meant with very exaggerated.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Well, I have to be a poop and go with Turandot. And yes, with the Zeffirelli staging. I don't care that Puccini didn't finish it, and I don't care that Turandot gets a happy ending while poor Liu dies, and I like the powder blue dress, and I like the creaky risers made of twigs, and I like the stupid cartwheeling and gratuitous arm choreography and the ridiculous scrolls and all that rot. It's a fairy tale. And it's the only Puccini opera (besides maybe Il Tabarro, which doesn't count as a whole opera apparently) that doesn't make me want to squirm.

Puccini has lots of great moments for me, but sitting through his complete operas is tough for me. Except Turandot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Well, I have to be a poop and go with Turandot. And yes, with the Zeffirelli staging. I don't care that Puccini didn't finish it, and I don't care that Turandot gets a happy ending while poor Liu dies, and I like the powder blue dress, and I like the creaky risers made of twigs, and I like the stupid cartwheeling and gratuitous arm choreography and the ridiculous scrolls and all that rot. It's a fairy tale. And it's the only Puccini opera (besides maybe Il Tabarro, which doesn't count as a whole opera apparently) that doesn't make me want to squirm.
> 
> Puccini has lots of great moments for me, but sitting through his complete operas is tough for me. Except Turandot.


Love this post.

I know what you mean about squirming to Puccini. Trouble is, I squirm to _Turandot_ too! But I'm one of the minority who actually feel that Alfano did a pretty good job finishing it, especially in the full original version which is absolutely thrilling at the end, with the protagonists' voices soaring over the ensemble and the double- or triple-tonguing trumpets. Love, well-orchestrated, conquers all, and to hell with virtue!

But I realize that's opening up a can of vermicelli.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Definately Tosca, exciting drama, a good plot, and also a lot of beautiful and lyrical moments too


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