# Imagine hearing music for the first time



## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

Imagine you are born deaf and then 40 years later you have a cochlear implant. Imagine what music your friends would like you to listen to. Who would it be? Gosh, I'm beginning to sound like ArtMusic.
This ain't a poll. Innit.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...0-year-old-women-hears-sound-first-time-video


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2014)

Messiaen? Not a bad first sound, birdsong is.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ives, Concord Piano Sonata.


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## clara s (Jan 6, 2014)

Beethoven the 9th Ode to Joy


matching my emotions


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Perhaps also Heil dir, Sonne from Wagner's Siegfried, Brunnhilde's magnificent awakening after her long beauty sleep.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Bach

The Goldberg Variations, or the Sonata for violin in C major.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I don't know what I would like to hear in a situation like that but it's interesting to think about. I wonder if the shock of hearing music would be as powerful as someone who was blind their whole life and had their vision repaired.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

TalkingHead said:


> Imagine what music your friends would like you to listen to.


FROST!!!!That's a really scary thought - a nightmare! With some of my 'friends' it could be tosh like Celine Dion or they might try to get me to watch 'The Voice'!


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Headphone Hermit said:


> FROST!!!!That's a really scary thought - a nightmare! With some of my 'friends' it could be tosh like Celine Dion or they might try to get me to watch 'The Voice'!


Haha! So true. Friends are the last place I would go for musical suggestions.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dustin said:


> I don't know what I would like to hear in a situation like that but it's interesting to think about. I wonder if the shock of hearing music would be as powerful as someone who was blind their whole life and had their vision repaired.


Watch the video -- I've seen similar post-operation reactions to cochlear implants. This woman is simply blown away, her new sense of hearing is a flood of actual information, the emotional state of now just hearing has her deeply and emotionally overwhelmed. She is stunned to finally hear sounded as spoken the months of the year!

Without any preconceptions about sound, or music specifically, anything from Gregorian chant to the plainest simple sung melody, 'Mary had a little lamb' would make a profound impression and overwhelm.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Watch the video -- I've seen similar post-operation reactions to cochlear implants. This woman is simply blown away, her new sense of hearing a flood of actual information, the emotional state of now just hearing has her deeply and emotionally overwhelmed. She is stunned to finally hear sounded as spoken the months of the year!
> 
> Without any preconceptions about sound, or music specifically, anything from Gregorian chant to the plainest simple sung melody, 'Mary had a little lamb' would make a profound impression and overwhelm.


Just watched it. Wow, what an amazing feeling that's gotta be for her. Too bad I can't remember the first time I heard music. I was probably crying like that too but for other reasons.


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## Incitatus (Mar 27, 2014)

I couldn't imagine what that would be like, nor what I would listen to. I think that even the simplest of sounds would sound as grand as the most complex concerto played exceptionally. Personally I think I would enjoy some rendition of "Irish Tune...." From Grainger or even some Tichelli pieces, eventually "Hounds of Spring", some Mozart and Schubert. You know what, I think no matter what I would love it. And that would be the greatest piece of music ever written in the world for me. 

My friends would probably have me listen to Kesha or Lady Gaga or something but I'd like to think I'd always come back to classical music at some point. Can I just say what a song for her to first hear? That one packs a heck of a punch in my honest opinion.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dustin said:


> Just watched it. Wow, what an amazing feeling that's gotta be for her. Too bad I can't remember the first time I heard music. I was probably crying like that too but for other reasons.


For many of us, we could have been crying when we first heard music because our diaper needed changing


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

So, you folks all sound really sure that someone deaf from birth will find music comprehensible. Do you know this to be the case? Wouldn't the sensory input through cochlear implants be drastically different than for those with a functional basilar membrane? Please clue me in here, because it seems far from obvious to me that music perception as we know it would even be possible.


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Without any preconceptions about sound, or music specifically, anything from Gregorian chant to the plainest simple sung melody, 'Mary had a little lamb' would make a profound impression and overwhelm.


This was what I was thinking


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> So, you folks all sound really sure that someone deaf from birth will find music comprehensible on first hearing. Do you know this to be the case? Please clue me in here, because it seems far from obvious to me that this would be so.


In fact, it seems fairly obvious that it wouldn't be so. Music is a language, filled with conventions that we take for granted since we have heard it from birth, sung it in kindergarten, and so forth. A person with newly-granted hearing might grow to appreciate a bit quickly, but initially it would be as least marginally incomprehensible.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

3rd movement of op.132 by Beethoven. Even if you have no comprehension of music, it is impossible not to be swept up by the layering Lydian strings.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> In fact, it seems fairly obvious that it wouldn't be so. Music is a language, filled with conventions that we take for granted since we have heard it from birth, sung it in kindergarten, and so forth. A person with newly-granted hearing might grow to appreciate a bit quickly, but initially it would be as least marginally incomprehensible.


I think it possible music might never be comprehensible in the way we take for granted. There are optimal ages for developing speech and speech comprehension, and some believe musical comprehension is an "unintended" (by natural selection, if that makes any sense) concomitant of these faculties. You have all heard about Frederick the Great's experiments in language development right?: Seeing if infants in isolation end up speaking Latin or a vernacular tongue? (Hint: They never spoke or comprehended any language.)


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> So, you folks all sound really sure that someone deaf from birth will find music comprehensible. Do you know this to be the case? Wouldn't the sensory input through cochlear implants be drastically different than for those with a functional basilar membrane? Please clue me in here, because it seems far from obvious to me that music perception as we know it would even be possible.





KenOC said:


> In fact, it seems fairly obvious that it wouldn't be so. Music is a language, filled with conventions that we take for granted since we have heard it from birth, sung it in kindergarten, and so forth. A person with newly-granted hearing might grow to appreciate a bit quickly, but initially it would be as least marginally incomprehensible.


In response to EdwardBast, you may have a point there. Didn't think of that but I guess it's possible that the sensory reproduction would be distorted or different from a normal person's hearing. But regardless, I'm sure they can still enjoy the music even if it sounds different.

And to Ken, I agree that I don't think it would be fully comprehensible but there would still have to be some basic innate comprehension and the lack of advanced comprehension is probably compensated for by far in the newness of the experience. I have no doubt it would still have to be an extraordinary experience and a very enjoyable thing as well. Just as babies and animals seem to enjoy music without understanding it very well.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Dustin said:


> And to Ken, I agree that I don't think it would be fully comprehensible but there would still have to be some basic innate comprehension and the lack of advanced comprehension is probably compensated for by far in the newness of the experience.


Consider this: Indian classical music is complex and, to those who have heard it from birth, can be easily grasped, considered quite beautiful, and carry many messages. This is due to a rich set of musical conventions that are far different from those of "Western" music. Most Western listeners, even after some exposure, can hear only the weakest hints of the richness of this music and, past a certain age, can probably never develop the same level of appreciation as those who grew up in that music's culture.

I think this may be a reasonable parallel with somebody, deaf from birth, who gains hearing as an adult -- in either culture.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Dustin said:


> In response to EdwardBast, you may have a point there. Didn't think of that but I guess it's possible that the sensory reproduction would be distorted or different from a normal person's hearing. But regardless, I'm sure they can still enjoy the music even if it sounds different.


See #18 above. I think it highly unlikely someone completely deaf from birth will ever have musical comprehension as we know it.


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## Muse Wanderer (Feb 16, 2014)

The science is still in its infancy as the cochlear implant itself is only good at reproducing speech in a quiet environment. The problem lies with the difficulty to reproduce different pitches, an integral part of music in general. One can hear beats, rhythms but timbre or pitches are almost non-existent. How can one hear a melody whose notes have the same tone and all intruments sound the same. Newer technology does offer hope but reproducing the real thing is far from attained.

This article does explain the kind of sound one would hear with current technology:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/innovation-works/why-we-can-give-the-deaf-sound-but-not-music-20131030

This article further illustrates the problem:
http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/10/09/new-strategy-lets-cochlear-implant-users-hear-music/

As for youtube example there you go...


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> See #18 above. I think it highly unlikely someone completely deaf from birth will ever have musical comprehension as we know it.


No i pretty much agree with you about that. I was mainly commenting on the part about the actual sensory reproduction and how the person hears the actual sounds in their mind. As far as the comprehension, as I said to Ken, I think you both have valid points but I'm just saying I believe there might have to be _something_ enjoyable about it. Do you think they would have absolutely no level of pleasure from it? I mean don't newborn babies seem to enjoy music in some cases without having any past experience.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Dustin said:


> No i pretty much agree with you about that. I was mainly commenting on the part about the actual sensory reproduction and how the person hears the actual sounds in their mind. As far as the comprehension, as I said to Ken, I think you both have valid points but I'm just saying I believe there might have to be _something_ enjoyable about it. Do you think they would have absolutely no level of pleasure from it? I mean don't newborn babies seem to enjoy music in some cases without having any past experience.


Music is not only a sensory, aesthetic and expressive experience, but a social one as well, and one that gets tied up with human ceremony in all its forms - religious rituals, rites of passage, childhood games, bedtime rituals, marriages, funerals, anniversaries, social occasions of all kinds. Participation in and comprehension of music in its binding social role is important and, I imagine, quite gratifying to have when one has not had it before. I have no idea what level or type of aesthetic or sensory pleasure music would afford to those who have come to hearing late in life through cochlear implants.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Music is not only a sensory, aesthetic and expressive experience, but a social one as well, and one that gets tied up with human ceremony in all its forms - religious rituals, rites of passage, childhood games, bedtime rituals, marriages, funerals, anniversaries, social occasions of all kinds. Participation in and comprehension of music in its binding social role is important and, I imagine, quite gratifying to have when one has not had it before. I have no idea what level or type of aesthetic or sensory pleasure music would afford to those who have come to hearing late in life through cochlear implants.


I agree with you saying that music is enhanced by social situations and contexts but that doesn't take away from the point I was making.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

But expanding further, I just think musical receptivity is ingrained deep in the brain from millions of years of evolution and is an instinctual human, and for that matter, animal capability. I definitely agree that growing up with it would obviously enhance and hone that receptive ability but for this deaf person to find a total lack of enjoyment from music upon regaining hearing? I'm not buying it.

And a quick google search will support my idea about music being deeply ingrained and instinctual from birth.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dustin said:


> But expanding further, I just think musical receptivity is ingrained deep in the brain from millions of years of evolution and is an instinctual human, and for that matter, animal capability. I definitely agree that growing up with it would obviously enhance and hone that receptive ability but for this deaf person to find a total lack of enjoyment from music upon regaining hearing? I'm not buying it.
> 
> And a quick google search will support my idea about music being deeply ingrained and instinctual from birth.


It could, for a forty year-old with no previous exposure to it, all sound like a mayhem of cacophonous babel, whether it were Bach or the Beatles, or Indonsian Gamelon music.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

PetrB said:


> It could, for a forty year-old with no previous exposure to it, all sound like a mayhem of cacophonous babel, whether it were Bach or the Beatles, or Indonsian Gamelon music.


PetrB your supposed to be on my side! LOL. Earlier in the thread you were making an argument for what I'm saying.

If that lady in the video cried over hearing "Wednesday", I can't begin to think what Bach's 1st Cello Suite Prelude would do to her.


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## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

*Charles Limb | Otolaryngologist and jazz musician*

Two years ago, I researched cochlear implantations, and I'm just now getting around to gathering and posting evidence for those who've considered hearing music implausible after patients' implantations.

Dr. Charles Limb has two titles on his official website: Associate Professor, Otolaryngology, Head & Neck Surgery, and Faculty, Peabody Conservatory of Music and School of Education at Johns Hopkins University.

Throughout his career, he has combined his interests in auditory science, clinical treatment of hearing loss and complex sound perception, especially music. At Johns Hopkins, he's a hearing specialist and surgeon who performs cochlear implantations on patients who have lost their hearing. He plays sax, piano and bass.

Limb is quoted: "This is what we want out of our senses: we want beauty; we don't want just function. When it comes to sensory restoration, we're still very far away from being able to provide beauty. …"​
Later, Dr. Limb goes on to say that people who've received cochlear implantations cannot hear music as we who've not had implantations naïvely expect others to hear. He gives examples of sounds of a trumpet and violin, which are sounds of mush to us who naturally hear well without implantations.

Another example was a player whose implantation allows him to play piano pretty well, but while listening to that same person sing karaoke is heartwarming, his singing is without pitch recognition. Apparently, singing is key to knowing how well musical pitches can be recognized by patients of cochlear implantations.

Nevertheless, at the date of Limb's TEDMED 2011 talk in the below vid, technology was and might still be far from providing beauty as we think of it.





^ Charles Limb: Building the musical muscle 
a TEDMED Talk, San Diego, California; October, 2011.
Limb said if he lost his hearing at the cochlear level, he would be heartbroken, because that would have been the one sense he would not have wanted to loose: music would never be the same. It is unusual that humans can hear music. Music is one of the strangest things there is yet researchers can't tell us how something that started out in the air can produce something emotional.​
In this TEDxMidAtlantic 2010 Talk, Limb with another who's inside an fMRI scanner perform together experimental improvisations. Another experiment included free style rap compared with memorized rap text.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Her is some great advice do not listen to rap/hip-hop music unless it is good.


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