# Where would you be without the Internet?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A US lawmaker, arguing for his vote allowing ISPs to share people's online activities, says, "Nobody's got to use the Internet."

Is that true? Where would you be today if you couldn't or didn't use the Internet?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Two separate issues here.

The internet provides loads of information allowing price comparisons. This allows people to save on utility bills, insurance, various savings deals and so on.

Because it provides lots of information on what people want, it also improves market efficiency. We see sites like Amazon, Presto and Arkiv selling all sorts of niche music because they can find a market for it.

All of this comes at a cost. We have moved over the last twenty five years from 300 bits per second to 100 megabits per second. This implies massive changes in infrastructure and in servers to cope with this. The original internet emerged from academia and the arpanet and had the notion that it should all be "free" because it was provided by others. As it became commercial, people had to pay for it.

There are several ways of paying for it. Donations keep sites like Wikipedia running. Kind owners keep sites like TC going. We're also seeing paywalls especially for newspaper content. Intrusive adverts are one method. Sites are fighting back against ad blockers. The real biggie is data mining. If ISPs know what you are doing and where you are going, they can sell the data and keep their prices down.

Basically, if you want ad free browsing, in private, you are going to have to pay for it. Tanstafl.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> A US lawmaker, arguing for his vote allowing ISPs to share people's online activities, says, "Nobody's got to use the Internet."
> 
> Is that true? Where would you be today if you couldn't or didn't use the Internet?


The mods would be without the daily routine.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

KenOC said:


> A US lawmaker, arguing for his vote allowing ISPs to share people's online activities, says, "Nobody's got to use the Internet."
> 
> Is that true? Where would you be today if you couldn't or didn't use the Internet?


I'm a lo-tech person and always have been - but the internet has been wonderful. In particular, I wouldn't have found out about my fiddle teacher & benefited from five years of musical Agony & Ecstasy, and I wouldn't be able to use YouTube to explore classical music and discover more about the Golden Age of Scottish Fiddle - it just doesn't bear thinking about!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

For a start I probably wouldn't be employed - for many people who are seeking employment the internet is now the primary resource, unless one is lucky enough to be involved in a situation where a way back to work can be gained by nepotism, cronyism or by word of mouth in general.

Secondly, most of my shopping is now done online (food excepted).

Thirdly, I also bank online which is just as well seeing my local branch is shutting down this summer.


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## Dr Johnson (Jun 26, 2015)

I would feel less paranoid...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inves...allowed_to_access_Internet_connection_records

http://commentcentral.co.uk/snoopers-charter-were-watching-you/



...but, at the same time, greatly inconvenienced.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Stuck!! I wouldn't have my friends on TC, be in touch with my favourite musicians on Twitter and I would have to handwrite letters and use a post box instead of e-mail!


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I wouldn't be here, obviously. I wouldn't have met my girlfriend; she followed my travel blog - it wasn't a dating site. It's convenient to pay my bills online, and have groceries delivered by shopping online. I have instant access to more information than I can use. 

But I remember life before the internet. I did my degree before the internet. I used to pay my bills by mail. I used to shop for groceries in an actual store. I managed just fine without the internet. I sometimes wonder if I'd prefer to go back to the good old days? Overall, I'm not thoroughly convinced of the overall benefits of the internet, it's a double edged sword, I think.

I remember a time when you could just travel without plans, no hotel or train reservations. Now because you can book online ahead nearly everyone does to get the best deal. The spontaneity of travel has gone, the good old days of just backpacking with a few dollars and a train pass have gone. This might seem trivial, but I can't travel as I want to. Before you had a choice, book ahead or travel without booking ahead, now you pretty much need to book ahead. This has been my experience traveling recently. 

The so called dark web makes a lot of our online financial and other activities risky. Yes, there was always risk in life but this seems more sinister as it crosses borders and it nearly complete hidden. 

We live in an age of too much information, and with it, fake news. How does one sort it all out? The internet gives everyone a voice, even the crackpots, craziest conspiracy theories, and just plain wrong facts. 

I have more to say on the subject, but I'm afraid I'll step too far into the muck. 

Overall, I'm 50-50 on the internet.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The internet is good, but my life was going fine before its arrival.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

It'll continue to be terrific, as long as smarmy politicians and greedy ISPs are reined in.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

You could say we've crafted our lives around the internet in such a way that we no longer CAN live without the internet. Alternative sources of information are being cut down. It would be nice to give people the freedom of not having to use the internet and continue to provide alternate sources. But, that's wishful thinking...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Judith said:


> Stuck!! I wouldn't have my friends on TC, be in touch with my favourite musicians on Twitter and I *would have to handwrite letters and use a post box instead of e-mail!*


*"That's okay, Judith, it'd take longer to hear from yuh."

*


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You could say we've crafted our lives around the internet in such a way that we no longer CAN live without the internet. Alternative sources of information are being cut down. It would be nice to give people the freedom of not having to use the internet and continue to provide alternate sources. But, that's wishful thinking...


That's right. The genie is already out of the bottle, and we're not going to be able to put it back.

Some time ago, I heard someone say that google has created a generation of people that can't create something like google. While it might be hyperbole, I sometimes see this in my teaching. I explain concepts in class, and then give homework. If the student can't figure it out they go online, watch a few YouTube videos, or find the solution online. They didn't sweat and toil like we did. I've noticed a distinct lack of tenacity among many of my students. But then again, maybe this is my fault for teaching as if there is no internet!

I'm an old fogey who remembers life before the internet, but I feel that there are some things we as a society should know without the internet, things we should know that supercede the internet. Or is this just wishful thinking?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You could say we've crafted our lives around the internet in such a way that we no longer CAN live without the internet. Alternative sources of information are being cut down. It would be nice to give people the freedom of not having to use the internet and continue to provide alternate sources. But, that's wishful thinking...


Lots of pluses and minuses. The great give and take and fake. Information, disinformation, education, dumbing down, distracted non-productive people, lost jobs, new jobs, bullies, preachers, puppies, etc., etc.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Without the internet, we would all do fine as we would without cell phones. That's the way it was only a relatively few years ago and people seemed to survive without needing any of the machines.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

To be completely honest, I would probably be more productive if the Internet didn't exist...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

'Broken promises, dismal performance'

http://www.infoworld.com/article/31...-get-tax-dollars-to-build-weak-broadband.html


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

In the Library, of course, using a Card Catalog(ue), under gently humming fluorescent lights, approaching satori.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

The internet has been a critical part of my work since graduate school. We used the old Arpanet (precursor to what we call the internet) to transfer data and computer code between institutions on our experiment. I was using email before most people had ever heard of it. Today I rely on the transfer and storage of data, papers, large spreadsheets/programs to do my work. In addition searches for papers, talks, or other staples of my work are so vastly easier and quicker using the internet. Basically the internet has made almost all my work vastly easier and more efficient.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

I guess it'll be back to dial-up BBSes just like in the pre-WWW days! Maybe I still have my 300 and 2400 bps Hayes modems here somewhere. Just don't dare to pick up the phone while I'm online!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> 'Broken promises, dismal performance'
> 
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/31...-get-tax-dollars-to-build-weak-broadband.html


Completely unsurprising.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Klassik said:


> I guess it'll be back to dial-up BBSes just like in the pre-WWW days! Maybe I still have my 300 and 2400 bps Hayes modems here somewhere. Just don't dare to pick up the phone while I'm online!


*
"Yep, back in the day, a 56K modem was the bees knees."

*


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Without the internet, we would all do fine as we would without cell phones. That's the way it was only a relatively few years ago and people seemed to survive without needing any of the machines.


And not long before that we didn't have automobiles, which was a good thing insofar as drunk drivers fell off their horses or carriages and the horses not having imbibed didn't run over and kill people.


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Where would you be without... Thanks to the internet the planning of our travels (by car in Europe) has become a lot more convenient. I remember the times we booked hotels by phone. Now I compare price & quality and the whole quest has become much more adventurous.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> And not long before that we didn't have automobiles, which was a good thing insofar as drunk drivers fell off their horses or carriages and the horses not having imbibed didn't run over and kill people.


When I was your age, I walked to work through 20 inches of snow, 16 miles each way, all for $1.50 a day.

Thank you Mr. Trump for giving me the opportunity! :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> When I was your age, I walked to work through 20 inches of snow, 16 miles each way, all for $1.50 a day.
> 
> Thank you Mr. Trump for giving me the opportunity! :tiphat:


I walked 1.5 miles to high school every day, snow or rain. Walked half mile to work for $1.90 per hour.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

TxllxT said:


> Where would you be without... Thanks to the internet the planning of our travels (by car in Europe) has become a lot more convenient. I remember the times we booked hotels by phone. Now I compare price & quality and the whole quest has become much more adventurous.


I almost never use(d) travel agencies. Overseas phone calls were expensive, so snail mail it was. On average, I'd have confirmation on a booking within ten days.

I'd start in February confirming summer trips. Seldom was there a slip-up. I'll guess the slower pace helped in this regard.:tiphat:


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Florestan said:


> I walked 1.5 miles to high school every day, snow or rain. Walked half mile to work for $1.90 per hour.


*
"Uphill to and from for $1.15, though I can't complain with some of today's perks"

*


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2017)

1) The music industry would probably still be thriving.
2) We'd be shopping in actual stores and enjoying the thrill of browsing (_real_ browsing...)
3) Ignorant nut jobs would not have an outlet for their venom.
4) We'd have to write real letters to family and friends.
5) We'd have to actually talk to people and have more real friends.
6) There'd be far less "fake news."

There are probably hundreds of more benefits, but those immediately come to mind.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Kontrapunctus said:


> 1) The music industry would probably still be thriving.
> 2) We'd be shopping in actual stores and enjoying the thrill of browsing (_real_ browsing...)
> 3) Ignorant nut jobs would not have an outlet for their venom.
> 4) We'd have to write real letters to family and friends.
> ...


#3 especially. (I am a learned nutjob, so my opinion counts).


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Bettina said:


> To be completely honest, I would probably be more productive if the Internet didn't exist...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Totenfeier said:


> #3 especially. (I am a learned nutjob, so my opinion counts).


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

KenOC said:


> A US lawmaker, arguing for his vote allowing ISPs to share people's online activities, says, "Nobody's got to use the Internet."
> 
> Is that true? Where would you be today if you couldn't or didn't use the Internet?


I might feel a little lonely when it comes to classical music discussion without the internet.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The negative site are, the bullying and the lack of privacy ( if you let them)


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Way back when there was the telegraph - a way to communicate that was an improvement on messages being delivered by the pony express. As time goes on, more improvements are put into place. 

Same with everything we have today - our cars have also advanced in power, speed, and technology. Even the way we shower and brush our teeth has been updated over the centuries. 

In days of yore we rode our bicycles a mile or more to the local library to research our term papers and essay assignments. If we wanted to chat with our study partner at the same table we talked to them, one person to another. If we needed to make a phone call we would do so from home or spend a dime at the phone booth. We had to stand/sit still while on the phone as everything was a wired connection. 

Everything that I do presently in life I could do without having internet or mobile phone service. I can perform my job without the internet and I can do all my shopping and pay all my bills without the internet. 

The internet can be a very useful tool and I do appreciate its capabilities when planning a trip and/or making travel arrangements. 

We had postal mail before email ... it took a week or more to get a reply from a letter we wrote. We had phone booths on the corner - only the very elite had a phone in their car and making a call on that still required an operator to place the call. 

What really upsets me about the technology age in which we live is when I saw a family of four, mom, dad, two kids arrive at the restaurant, and as soon as they are seated they all bring out their smartphones and start texting each other. One boy says to the other, "hey, this is really funny - I am going to send it to you on email". Excuse me? He couldn't just show his brother what he found? He had to text/email it to him just 18 inches away?? But in cases like that I blame the parents, not the kids. 

In the end I can live with it and I could live without it too. I did without it for the first 40 years of my life ... and lived to talk about it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I would have no where to post my crazy music


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I think my life would have been miserable.
Before internet the only people you had contact with were those around you and if they did not like you being lonely was the only option. Now I can find people all over the world.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I would have no where to post my crazy music


Blow it out your car windows during a traffic jam on a hot day so all the drivers around you have to listen to it too.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Blow it out your car windows during a traffic jam on a hot day so all the drivers around you have to listen to it too.


Don't worry have done so and doesn't need to be hot day either.......... With the stuff kids listen to today no one blinks an eye


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Don't worry have done so and doesn't need to be hot day either.......... With the stuff kids listen to today no one blinks an eye


Need to blast those kids with some Mahler!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Need to blast those kids with some Mahler!


I prefer to use Varese to blast


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'd have read a couple hundred more books, own a thousand less CDs, and have more money in the bank.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I'd have read a couple hundred more books, *own a thousand less CDs*, and have more money in the bank.


Interesting point. They say that the Internet is killing CD/physical media sales and maybe music sales in general, but I've probably purchased more CDs because of the Internet than I would have if it didn't exist. The discovery of music online has led me to add CDs to my collection that I never would have considered otherwise. I guess not everyone wants to buy what they can get for free or stream legally online though. I suppose it's understandable.

Shopping through online stores is probably easier than shopping though classical music CD mail order catalogs in the old days, but those old paper catalogs probably would have been interesting to see. I wonder if anyone collects those or have scanned them and put them online.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Pugg said:


> The negative site are, the bullying and the lack of privacy ( if you let them)


But we have very good moderators who enforce the ToS to make TC a better place that it is today.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> But we have very good moderators who enforce the ToS to make TC a better place that it is today.


I meant it more in general.


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## Dave Whitmore (Oct 3, 2014)

I would almost certainly still be living in England. And I wouldn't be married to the amazing woman I'm with. I met her online. I probably wouldn't even be into classical music as I only started listening to it after clicking on a video on YouTube about popular classical music and realizing I liked it more than I ever thought I would. I also remember the pre-internet days. While I think life seemed simpler back then, I don't think I could go back to having no internet. There are pros and cons to the internet but I think the good far outweighs the bad.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

starthrower said:


> I'd have read a couple hundred more books, own a thousand less CDs, and have more money in the bank.


I do think this one of the best answers. :tiphat:


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

well i guess i would get up early from sleep then go to the local store and buy the Gazette and the Daily racing form.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2017)

I don't know Ken, you tell me - is there somewhere where the internet don't go?


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Klassik said:


> Interesting point. *They say that the Internet is killing CD/physical media sales and maybe music sales in general, but I've probably purchased more CDs because of the Internet than I would have if it didn't exist.* The discovery of music online has led me to add CDs to my collection that I never would have considered otherwise. I guess not everyone wants to buy what they can get for free or stream legally online though. I suppose it's understandable.
> 
> Shopping through online stores is probably easier than shopping though classical music CD mail order catalogs in the old days, but those old paper catalogs probably would have been interesting to see. I wonder if anyone collects those or have scanned them and put them online.


It's taken a while (thanks in part to pinheads like RIAA) for YT to be acknowledged as an instigator in music sales. It's finally happening. 2016 UK music sales data, for example.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I prefer to use Varese to blast


Whether Varese, Mahler, Nono, it's a good way to go...pedestrians being smacked by a car during eDevice distraction.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I'd be in a cave trying to create fire or a wheel!:lol:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The Internet might be said to be the devil's fairground but it's got some brilliant attractions.


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## Marinera (May 13, 2016)

Right now? Sleeping I guess.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> I'd be in a cave trying to create fire or a wheel!:lol:


Creating the wheel wasn't terribly complex but it took a long time. "Hmmm, square doesn't work. Maybe triangular? Yeah, let me try that... MILDRED, go outside and find me a triangular rock!"


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I would be FREE! The internet catches my mind, so if it's not there my mind would spin into cosmos or the twilight zone or...


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

In the hospital, probably, after having made smartass comments to living people.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Without the internet, I would be receiving real paper letters from free-loading relatives begging for money, instead of those dang cyber-cards.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I would be FREE! The internet catches my mind, so if it's not there my mind would spin into cosmos or the twilight zone or...


Just keep using the internet.......


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Without the internet I would be spending a lot more time watching opera DVDs and reading books. Of course it is the internet that enabled me to amass such a nice collection of opera DVDs in the first place.

But perhaps the most significant factor of the internet is that without it I would still be going to the shelf to reference my dictionary and my encyclopedia. As it is the internet has made those books largely unnecessary.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Florestan said:


> But perhaps the most significant factor of the internet is that without it I would still be going to the shelf to reference my dictionary and my encyclopedia. As it is the internet has made those books largely unnecessary.


I went to pick up an encyclopedia off the shelf at the library just for the retro experience a little while back. This was the only set they had, but I gagged because so much dust got stirred up when I pulled that book off the shelf. I'm guessing those hadn't been read in several weeks if not months.

Do you remember when CD-ROM encyclopedias were a huge deal in the pre-WWW days? It was a big deal even into the WWW era of the late 1990s or the early 2000s. Remember all the marketing about how you could sample a bit of Mozart's music while reading about him and so forth? They were always trying to push you to buy the new year's version of the same encyclopedia. I guess Wikipedia finally killed those CD-ROMs off for better or worse. I remember that many/most of those CD-ROM encyclopedias had such bad user interfaces by the late 1990s that it was a pretty painful experience even using them.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Klassik said:


> Do you remember when CD-ROM encyclopedias were a huge deal in the pre-WWW days? It was a big deal even into the WWW era of the late 1990s or the early 2000s. Remember all the marketing about how you could sample a bit of Mozart's music while reading about him and so forth? They were always trying to push you to buy the new year's version of the same encyclopedia. I guess Wikipedia finally killed those CD-ROMs off for better or worse. I remember that many/most of those CD-ROM encyclopedias had such bad user interfaces by the late 1990s that it was a pretty painful experience even using them.


And CD ROM won't run on Linux operating system unless you get special software for it but then you open yourself up to potential Windows oriented infections.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Florestan said:


> And CD ROM won't run on Linux operating system unless you get special software for it but then you open yourself up to potential Windows oriented infections.


I suppose you could always run those 1990s encyclopedias off a Windows 95 (or 3.1 even) virtual machine without networking if you really wanted to run one of those these days. Some may even work in DOS that might work with FreeDOS or DOSbox. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that, but I suppose that it's possible that some of the articles on those CD-ROMs are more accurate than what could be found on Wikipedia or other free Internet sites.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Klassik said:


> ...but I suppose that it's possible that some of the articles on those CD-ROMs are more accurate than what could be found on Wikipedia or other free Internet sites.


Some years back when Wikipedia was still pretty new, Britannica and others attacked it for being amateurish and inaccurate. A team of academics sat down and carefully compared a bunch of Wiki entries with those in the traditional encyclopedias. Their verdict: Wikipedia, even at that time, was _on average _more accurate and balanced than the traditional sources.

I remember reading about that with some interest. The big printed encyclopedias, which used to be sold at huge prices door to door, have effectively disappeared today. They have been replaced with a free product, at least as good, which is available to everyone.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Some years back when Wikipedia was still pretty new, Britannica and others attacked it for being amateurish and inaccurate. A team of academics sat down and carefully compared a bunch of Wiki entries with those in the traditional encyclopedias. Their verdict: Wikipedia, even at that time, was _on average _more accurate and balanced than the traditional sources.
> 
> I remember reading about that with some interest. The big printed encyclopedias, which used to be sold at huge prices door to door, have effectively disappeared today. They have been replaced with a free product, at least as good, which is available to everyone.


I remember reading that. It seems to me that Wikipedia pages on popular topics tend to be pretty accurate and relatively free from bias (a problem that I remember at least some of the old encyclopedias having). Things get more sketchy when studying more obscure topics though as they might not get the same level of "peer review" as the more popular topics. I've seen some obscure topics have flat out wrong or partially incorrect information. Long story short, I think that Wikipedia is a great site that I use frequently especially since you can check out the references (a weakness of some older encyclopedias), but I'd be a bit wary of using it to build knowledge of obscure topics.

But, yeah, it's pretty amazing how the community built up Wikipedia from being nothing to being a pretty good source of information on all types of topics in just the manner of a few months. I'm not sure if any of the old encyclopedia companies are still publishing encyclopedia books/software/paid websites, but they can't be making much money these days if they are still doing that.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Klassik said:


> ...Things get more sketchy when studying more obscure topics though as they might not get the same level of "peer review" as the more popular topics. I've seen some obscure topics have flat out wrong or partially incorrect information.


I think that's true. But OTOH many of these obscure topics would get no overage at all in traditional printed encyclopedias. I haven't seen a comparison of topic counts between Wikipedia and (say) Britannica, but I'd guess Wiki has many times more topics today than Britannica at its peak of success.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Without the internet I would be aggressively knocking on fair damsels' doors asking for dates, rather than clicking on photos from match.com and eHarmony.com.

Ah! The good old days!!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dave Whitmore said:


> I would almost certainly still be living in England. And I wouldn't be married to the amazing woman I'm with. I met her online. I probably wouldn't even be into classical music as I only started listening to it after clicking on a video on YouTube about popular classical music and realizing I liked it more than I ever thought I would. I also remember the pre-internet days. While I think life seemed simpler back then, I don't think I could go back to having no internet. There are pros and cons to the internet but I think the good far outweighs the bad.


Nice post, Dave!!!


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Without the internet I would be spending a lot more time watching opera DVDs and reading books. Of course it is the internet that enabled me to amass such a nice collection of opera DVDs in the first place.
> 
> But perhaps the most significant factor of the internet is that without it I would still be going to the shelf to reference my dictionary and my encyclopedia. As it is the internet has made those books largely unnecessary.


I wouldn't chuck those books just yet; remember, the Internet is a tremendous repository of human knowledge provided that three conditions obtain:

1. All of our hardware and software works perfectly...

2. ...until the End of Time...

3. ...and we always have easy access to infinite, cheap energy.

Writing began the process of offloading information from our brains, movable type accelerated it, and I'm damned afraid that the Internet will finish it. A few nice, strong EMPs a few generations from now and we are going to be in sad shape.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Never mind a few generations - https://www.wired.com/2012/02/massive-solar-flare/ - we have a 12% chance of a major event by 2020.

Can you imagine the impact on young people with no cell phones or social media? Would they be able to communicate at all?


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Precisely so, Taggart; I was allowing time for minds young and old to become entirely vacant, rather than mostly vacant, as it is now.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Ah the good old days








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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I remember our first computer had a Alta Vista search engine.


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## Harmonie (Mar 24, 2007)

I'd probably have long graduated out of college, be married, and happy.

If this sounds like a joke, I'm actually serious about this. I'm fairly certain that without the internet I would have taken better care of myself ten years ago, which is the catalyst that divides a happy normal life and what I have right now.

With that said, the internet has helped me with some issues I would have never been able to be open about otherwise, which gave me courage to be more open IRL. So... the happy normal life I'm painting here might not be accurate. I might actually have... No longer existed in this scenario if you know what I mean. But if I wasn't broken by what happened ten years ago, I'm not sure what could do that...

Another negative thing is that I almost definitely wouldn't be an oboist (the woman who inspired me to pick up the instrument for real around a couple of years ago I know through the internet). I don't even know if I would have ever played the bassoon, either. I think that would have still happened, but it was a mixture of internet and people IRL that got me into playing the bassoon, so it's possible I wouldn't have. Without playing the bassoon, I probably would have stopped caring about music pretty fast. I'm not sure where I'd be if that had happened, because I really don't have any other academic interests, aside from history. But that's kind of a pointless what-if because I might have still played the bassoon.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Turkey has blocked Wikipedia nationwide. There are a lot of kids scratching their heads over their schoolwork tonight.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Turkey has blocked Wikipedia nationwide. There are a lot of kids scratching their heads over their schoolwork tonight.


I hope the Wikipedia block doesn't happen in America - I'd be scratching my head over my TC posts! :lol:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

They have the Internet on computers now?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I heard it was a plumbing problem. Hope they fix those WikiLeaks.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I heard it was a plumbing problem. Hope they fix those WikiLeaks.


Well, the Internet is just a series of tubes after all. Leaky tubes apparently!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Klassik said:


> Well, the Internet is just a series of tubes after all. Leaky tubes apparently!


I thought is was leaky packets of something..............


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I thought is was leaky packets of something..............


It keeps dripping, like a shower.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Pugg said:


> It keeps dripping, like a shower.


Best not to go to that part of the internet..........


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

I seriously think Internet brings us mostly trouble and makes our brain like a cheese.

Without internet I'd be reading more, meeting more people, going to concerts more.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Lenny said:


> I seriously think Internet brings us mostly trouble and makes our brain like a cheese.
> 
> Without internet I'd be reading more, meeting more people, going to concerts more.


OTOH, you're reading a lot on the Internet, meeting people online across the world, and you're able to pull up even extremely obscure music on the Internet. Of course, none of this can compete with reading the great books (though there is some good stuff online), meeting interesting people in the real world, and going to good concerts in person, but I guess it's possible to balance the best of the real world and the best of the online world. Besides, it's not like everyone was reading the great books before the Internet. They were just watching more TV and reading more Archie comics (or something like that).


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Klassik said:


> OTOH, you're reading a lot on the Internet, meeting people online across the world, and you're able to pull up even extremely obscure music on the Internet. Of course, none of this can compete with reading the great books (though there is some good stuff online), meeting interesting people in the real world, and going to good concerts in person, but I guess it's possible to balance the best of the real world and the best of the online world. Besides, it's not like everyone was reading the great books before the Internet. They were just watching more TV and reading more Archie comics (or something like that).


Yes, I think balance is the keyword here. Internet should be used as a _tool_.

But unfortunately I infected my brain long time ago with Nicholas Carr's book "The Shallows", and I cannot seem to get rid of that, no matter how I try. It got even worse: after that came Neil Postman, McLuhan, Weizenbaum and many other luddites, all those horrible people.

I have a very strong love-hate -relationship with the Internet.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Lenny said:


> Yes, I think balance is the keyword here. Internet should be used as a _tool_.
> 
> But unfortunately I infected my brain long time ago with Nicholas Carr's book "The Shallows", and I cannot seem to get rid of that, no matter how I try. It got even worse: after that came Neil Postman, McLuhan, Weizenbaum and many other luddites, all those horrible people.
> 
> I have a very strong love-hate -relationship with the Internet.


I can understand this perspective. The luddites are/were misunderstood people to a large extent. Just think how much work we put in just to keep our various personal machines and electronic gadgets going. Sometimes so much work goes in just to get a few hours of electronic entertainment a week. Well, that's a whole different subject I guess, but the Internet should be used as a tool as you say. That's probably great advice.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Bettina said:


> I hope the Wikipedia block doesn't happen in America - I'd be scratching my head over my TC posts! :lol:


Quick! Everybody get a mega hard drive and download all of Wikipedia to it before they block it out.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Lenny said:


> I seriously think Internet brings us mostly trouble and makes our brain like a cheese.
> 
> Without internet I'd be reading more, meeting more people, going to concerts more.


Have you considered this should be posted in the Wise Sayings thread?

Oh and, is that soft, perhaps runny cheese, or hard cheese?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Have you considered this should be posted in the Wise Sayings thread?
> 
> Oh and, is that soft, perhaps runny cheese, or hard cheese?


Swiss I think or have I forgotten already?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Lenny said:


> I seriously think Internet brings us mostly trouble and makes our brain like a cheese.
> 
> Without internet I'd be reading more, meeting more people, going to concerts more.


I've seen people. I'd rather have the Internet.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

With no internet Id be Sitting at the airport with no distractions from picking up the wife and taking her to the house I bought without her seeing it first. If I dont post tomorrow you will know it didnt go well!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> With no internet Id be Sitting at the airport with no distractions from picking up the wife and taking her to the house I bought without her seeing it first. If I dont post tomorrow you will know it didnt go well!


Oh dear, we hoping for the best then. :angel:


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Where would I be without the Internet? I'd not be in the least concerned about a global Google Doc spear-phishing scam. I swear by all that's holy, if we still had 1930s vintage mailboys running documents between departments, and cheery, crisp-uniformed mailmen you knew well delivering stamped mail to your front door, we wouldn't all be wringing our hands in fear. Brave new world my ***.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Lost 

To be honest, I can imagine a much less interesting life without the internet, because I think it would have been very unlikely that I would have found communities of people with similar obscure interests as mine. I know almost no one in real life who likes classical the way I do, so I'm glad to be able to discuss that interest of mine with like-minded people. Same goes for conlanging, an even obscurer interest, but like all interests, there's a community for it online


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Assuming a lot of other "computer age" technology also would not exist, I would still be driving a car with a carburator, I would still be buying vinyl LPs as CDs would probably not exist, I would still be carrying coins for the pay phone as cell phones would not exist. At the time we had no problem living in such a world, but to go back to it would be rather difficult.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Tristan said:


> Lost
> 
> To be honest, I can imagine a much less interesting life without the internet, because I think it would have been very unlikely that I would have found communities of people with similar obscure interests as mine. I know almost no one in real life who likes classical the way I do, so I'm glad to be able to discuss that interest of mine with like-minded people. Same goes for conlanging, an even obscurer interest, but like all interests, there's a community for it online


Back then we had music stores with staff and customers who you would discuss classical music with. While some of these stores still exist, they've become very rare. Of course, some small towns and such didn't have these music stores so these people are much better off with the Internet.


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

Florestan said:


> Assuming a lot of other "computer age" technology also would not exist, I would still be driving a car with a carburator, I would still be buying vinyl LPs as CDs would probably not exist, I would still be carrying coins for the pay phone as cell phones would not exist. At the time we had no problem living in such a world, but to go back to it would be rather difficult.


Difficult, yes, but personally for me not a big problem. But obviously our whole society is totally dependent of the Internet.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

"Where would you be without the internet? "

At ease.


Just sold my iPhone, back to prepaid flip phone. Can't stand the constant ping and pong noises to "inform" me about who knows what.
Check and, if neccessary, answer email twice a week at work. Given up on PC or Mac alltogether since the iPad.
I find it annoying that more and more things need to be handled digitally, with special accounts, log ins, passwords etc. Especially in financiel matters and in communication with several branches of government. Prefer the dated letter, or a vis-a-vis.

Not blind to the positives though. Long live YT, wikipedia and fora like this


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I work for "old media," so in many ways I would be better off if the internet had never been invented.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Oh dear, we hoping for the best then. :angel:


Still alive happy to report and no justifiable homicide took place, just up for a new Kitchen............


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Still alive happy to report and no justifiable homicide took place, just up for a new Kitchen............


Small price to pay for ones life.


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## classicorbust (May 18, 2017)

no where haha my job depends on the internet


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

classicorbust said:


> no where haha my job depends on the internet


You may be out of a job some day, and all of us better head for the hills and learn to hunt and cut our own firewood, etc.

Could a solar storm shut down Earth? 
"A serious solar storm could cause an electromagnetic mess that could take a decade to clean up."


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Some of the miseries visited upon us by the internet are lack of willpower (I'm just as guilty). Others are way outside our control. 

The disappearance of things like the local banks is an annoying cooperation of the chief executives dreaming about a money machine with negligible running costs and the fools who go 'hey that's great, now I can bank 24/7 on my phone' as if anyone needs to do that 24 hours a day. The banks then decide that because 51% applied for an online account, it's now time to close all physical branches. The banks et al have done a fine job of shifting a portion of their administrative work onto you - the customer - for free. The staff no longer work there. People may call it 'market efficiency', but we know that in economics jargon 'efficiency' means "reducing costs", not making things run more smoothly for everyone. I'm just glad the internet has made this more visible.

Same for the person behind the ticket office at the train station advising me to buy from a machine or online and thereby doing herself out of a job. Plus it's more difficult for me to find the train info on the internet, when the nice lady can just look at her screen and tell me (and sell me a ticket simultaneously). I may have checked online, but the info changes. I don't want to be connected to a phone all the time.

I still read paper books though, I finished another novel last night and started a new one immediately. I also have very basic television, but it suits me fine.

What the cyber-society worshippers fail to appreciate is that lots of people rely/relied on daily activities for human contact. Especially older people. When I reach pension age (some time off ) and the world is almost entirely automated, I can't see it being a happier place.


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## Guest (May 18, 2017)

Florestan said:


> Assuming a lot of other "computer age" technology also would not exist, I would still be driving a car with a carburator, I would still be buying vinyl LPs as CDs would probably not exist, I would still be carrying coins for the pay phone as cell phones would not exist. At the time we had no problem living in such a world, but to go back to it would be rather difficult.


CDs existed well before the internet.(1982 vs mid 90s for the internet as a household device.)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Kontrapunctus said:


> CDs existed well before the internet.(1982 vs mid 90s for the internet as a household device.)


Yes but perhaps they were invented specifically as a data storage device and adaped. I don't know. So then I am much happier to know that CDs would still be around. But the Internet is a great way to find more to buy.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)




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