# Justly neglected composers



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Since the other question has been raised so often! Who has been swept into the dustbin of history, and rightly so? It should be somebody we've heard of (if that's not too much of a contradiction...) :lol:


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

The temptation is to say Salieri, who is actually well-known for his (perceived) mediocrity. But even doesn't entirely fit the bill.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> The temptation is to say Salieri, who is actually well-known for his (perceived) mediocrity. But even doesn't entirely fit the bill.


There are far worse composers than Salieri that people seem tempted to revive every so often.

Karl Goldmark's work strikes me as rather dull, but that's more mediocrity than badness. I have heard few pieces more turgid and overwrought in recorded classical music history than Ernst Boehe's Symphonic Poem Taormina, but I can imagine even worse... The _really_ bad ones are never played at all.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

I think Leopold Mozart would be very obscure indeed had he not spawned.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> I think Leopold Mozart would be very obscure indeed had he not spawned.


I get this picture of Leopold swimming vigorously upstream...


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Everything is getting reconsidered and revived these days but in my opinion Auber, Meyerbeer, Weber, von Suppe, Stanford and Parry are among the names who can justly be considered as having been shuffled out of the concert hall and opera house forever


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

As in Carl Maria von Weber? I rather like him, to tell the truth.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

As in Carl Maria von Weber? I rather like him, to tell the truth.

My thoughts exactly. Some marvelous works for clarinet... to say nothing of a couple truly fine operas.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I agree. Weber sticks out like a sore thumb among those names. Several of his overtures have never really left the concert hall.



StLukesguildOhio said:


> to say nothing of a couple truly fine operas.


Well, aside from their awful librettos...


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

...Anton Rubinstein... 

But really, he's not even Russian sounding! Suits him well!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

But the overtures aren't the veritable warhorses they used to be. So maybe relatively more neglected, yes


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. Weber's clarinet concertos and concertino are astonishing virtuoso showpieces.

Please don't label Weber obsolete. If you do, I will never be able to sell the above on Amazon's marketplace!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ahammel said:


> I think Leopold Mozart would be very obscure indeed had he not spawned.


But the "Toy Symphony" is still kind of charming.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I see Ken really likes to stir the pot around here. I wonder who'll fall in....


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

They sure don't make toys like they used to.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

A week ago my vote would have gone to Vasily Kalinnikov. I listened to a couple of his symphonies at work. Aside from a fantastic opening theme in Symphony No. 1, the music could have created its own new sacred genre: the TeDium. However I listened again yesterday and today, and now I'm not so sure. Maybe they were a little too perky for my mood last week. They seem just fine this week -- kind of in Dvorak territory without all the jangly triangle. Opinions change.

I'm leaning toward Brian Havergal remaining in obscurity, blasphemous as that sounds to some.

I'm also leaning toward agreeing with Hu -- Huilnu  Huiliunisoittajajiahsasistahlah about Rubinstein. I used to be really taken with him, but that was on the strength of the opening theme to his Piano Concerto No. 5 alone, really quite a nice piece. The rest of what I have heard is quite a snooze-fest I admit.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Weston said:


> But the "Toy Symphony" is still kind of charming.


If by 'charming', you mean 'unbelievably irritating', then I agree.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

They were after all very old toys and probably needed oiling.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ahammel said:


> If by 'charming', you mean 'unbelievably irritating', then I agree.


Evidently it runs in the family.

  ["Runs" Good advice.]


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I get this picture of Leopold swimming vigorously upstream...


Only to mate, then die.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Weston said:


> I'm leaning toward Brian Havergal remaining in obscurity, blasphemous as that sounds to some.


I find his music kind of embarrassing, to be honest. Either I _really_ don't get it, or the "Gothic" Symphony is as terrible as it sounds.

Richard Strauss praised it, but he routinely praised mediocre talents if they were sufficiently influenced by him...

Edit: Is this review an intentional parody???


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

dgee said:


> Everything is getting reconsidered and revived these days but in my opinion Auber, Meyerbeer, Weber, von Suppe, Stanford and Parry are among the names who can justly be considered as having been shuffled out of the concert hall and opera house forever


And I would consider that unjust. Thank goodness we have recordings.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Bernstein. A one-hit wonder like Dexy's Midnight Runners or Vanilla Ice.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I find his music kind of embarrassing, to be honest. Either I _really_ don't get it, or the "Gothic" Symphony is as terrible as it sounds.


Now you've got me curious about it.

I'm only a few minutes in, but I think it probably sucks.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Please don't label Weber obsolete. If you do, I will never be able to sell the above on Amazon's marketplace!


Beethoven on Weber: "The little man, otherwise so gentle -- I never would have credited him with such a thing. Now Weber must write operas in earnest, one after the other, without caring too much for refinement! Kaspar, the monster, looms up like a house; wherever the devil sticks his claw in we feel it."


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Goldmark's music is not dull at all . The Rustic Wedding symphony, actually more of a programmatic 
orchestral suite, is great fun . Bernstein and a number of other conductors have recorded it,
and I have the Naxos one with Stephen Gunzenhausen and the Irish radio orchestra .
Try it. I played a performance of it many years ago, and enjoyed this very much .


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

dgee said:


> Everything is getting reconsidered and revived these days but in my opinion Auber, Meyerbeer, Weber, von Suppe, Stanford and Parry are among the names who can justly be considered as having been shuffled out of the concert hall and opera house forever


Stanford's Requiem is one of my favourites. His choral music is still sung in churches and things like The Bluebird are still sung and recorded widely. He also played an important role as teacher to composers such as Holst, Vaughan Williams, etc. They surpassed him, that would be the consensus, however my listening to Stanford's music is largely limited to his choral work.

I don't agree with Weber being justly neglected, he was an innovator in the operatic area and had particular influence on Wagner. His piano music influenced Liszt, I got plenty of time for his concertos for the instrument. As people have mentioned, his clarinet pieces are up there with the best as well, and he composed them when the instrument was fairly new. Weber was a Romantic in the age of Classicism. He's an interesting anomaly in that way.

Suppe is kind of limited to overtures and his operettas, yes a minor composer but what would wind bands do without his Light Cavalry?

Dunno about Auber and Meyerbeer. The latter still has some nuggets in the recital repertoire, and a couple of operas as well (Les Hugenouts?).

I think this is all pretty subjective though, one man's justly neglected composer is another's unjustly neglected one.



ahammel said:


> I think Leopold Mozart would be very obscure indeed had he not spawned.





Weston said:


> But the "Toy Symphony" is still kind of charming.


Scholars of the past thought it was by Haydn, up to the mid 20th century I think. Does it make Leopold "better?" I personally think its a nice fun piece but haven't heard it in ages.



Mahlerian said:


> ...
> Karl Goldmark's work strikes me as rather dull, but that's more mediocrity than badness.


I remember his Rustic Wedding symphony as good fun, Brahms with a bit of Hungarian spice. I got his Violin Concerto, Itzhak Perlman plays it and says in the notes its a great concerto, but the couple of times I heard it I think dull is the word. Or maybe a bit dry (like Reger at times?), but I can handle it. In any case its got the Korngold concerto coupled with it, which I like a good deal.



Couac Addict said:


> Bernstein. A one-hit wonder like Dexy's Midnight Runners or Vanilla Ice.


Disagree, a lot! But you know, one hit is better than no hit at all!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Now you've got me curious about it.
> 
> I'm only a few minutes in, but I think it probably sucks.


Also the only time I've ever seen this performance direction, which I believe speaks for itself:


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Just looking at a set of American orchestral excerpt books from the 50s I can see excerpts from Boieldieu, Moralt, von Flotow, Prummer and Halevy. They all appear to be opera overtures in an early romantic style (with lyrical horn solos!). The compiler must have considered they were pieces that were played sufficiently often to merit the student learning the solos. These are not composers that are in the repertoire these days, to my knowledge at least

Would it be fair to say, in general, that early romantic non-Italian opera is neglected these days? Could you also put large swathes of Victorian/Edwardian English music in the neglected basket? I can see justifications for both instances of neglect


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Weston said:


> I'm leaning toward Brian Havergal remaining in obscurity, blasphemous as that sounds to some.


Of course I meant Havergal Brian. Brian Havergal was likely a genius.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Scholars of the past thought it was by Haydn, up to the mid 20th century I think. Does it make Leopold "better?"


I don't care if scholars of the past thought God wrote it, it's still awful.



Mahlerian said:


> Also the only time I've ever seen this performance direction, which I believe speaks for itself:
> View attachment 32250


Ah, what an ingenious way to improve your music: just write impressive-sounding adjectives in the performance directions! I believe Mozart's secret was to write "sound good" above all his piano parts.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Ah, what an ingenious way to improve your music: just write impressive-sounding adjectives in the performance directions! I believe Mozart's secret was to write "sound good" above all his piano parts.


And how about that Beethoven guy? "Mit Lebhaftigkeit und durchaus mit Empfindung und Ausdruck." Really? Hum a bar or two and I'll fake it...


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't agree that Stanford, Parry or Weber deserve to be on the list. I love Stanford and Parry's symphonies, and Weber's clarinet works and his solo piano works are certainly worth listening to and performed.

Kevin


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

ahammel said:


> I don't care if scholars of the past thought God wrote it, it's still awful.


Well I'm not gonna argue over it too much. Anyway, I got nothing but a baby's rattle from 1763 to throw at you! Or maybe I'll get out my water pistol? But hey that's not authentic, its not in the symphony. Oops :lol:



dgee said:


> Just looking at a set of American orchestral excerpt books from the 50s I can see excerpts from Boieldieu, Moralt, von Flotow, Prummer and Halevy. They all appear to be opera overtures in an early romantic style (with lyrical horn solos!). The compiler must have considered they were pieces that were played sufficiently often to merit the student learning the solos. These are not composers that are in the repertoire these days, to my knowledge at least
> 
> Would it be fair to say, in general, that early romantic non-Italian opera is neglected these days? Could you also put large swathes of Victorian/Edwardian English music in the neglected basket? I can see justifications for both instances of neglect


I think that books and sources from way back give a picture of who has now been forgotten. So too concert programmes and so on. The thing is that some composers might have been of some significance even if their music didn't survive. Eg. in terms of teaching, or being important to certain locales or regions, but not of national or international significance.

I had some books which I have subsequently culled, from the late 19th century to the post WWII period. I remember reading them and yes I recognised big names - and even Stanford is one, since he's still known for at least a few things, and labels like Naxos and Chandos have done a lot of his stuff - but other names, swathes of them where totally unknown to me, they where not big names or names I had read about elsewhere or for example seen in catalogues, or online. I also got books of more recent times, but those names didn't appear there. I didn't even know them by name or by association with other composers around then. Not to say I am an expert, but to point out that 50-100 years is a long time, things do change.

Late 19th century you had a lot doing rehash. Brahms and Wagner where their idols, more often than not. There was this guy called Bungert who rehashed Wagner, but his operas are forgotten now, however Brahms did praise his chamber music. Even the likes of Herzogenberg have survived for a work or two, the others are gone.

You always get trends and those that rehash them en masse. Early 20th century you had Debussy, Stravinsky, Rachmaninov, guys like that, widely imitated. Post WWII you had various trends including serialism, even Stravinsky went in that direction in the 1950's. But rehash doesn't mean doing something, it depends on the way it is done, the way influences are absorbed.

In terms of operas as you allude to, in the 19th century there where indeed the likes of Halevy and Flotow, others being Lortzing (I had his Zar und Zimmerman on LP, it came across as good fun, a mix of Beethoven and Rossini), William Wallace and also Dargomizhsky of Russia, Moniuszko of Poland, Erkel of Hungary. They are still known on national level, but internationally speaking they largely unknown quantities. However these composers did contribute a lot to the music scene in their respective countries.

The thing is that there is posterity but I suppose it becomes shaky with the hundred or more years long neglect or at least general obscurity of the likes of Bach and Vivaldi (and to some extent, Schubert). These composers haven't been widely recorded, their sheet music may well be in some dusty archive, not accessible digitally. Maybe not many people know them, except for some scholar or enthusiast of the area, maybe they have recordings that are very old (early post WWII period or back to the pre-vinyl era). So, a lot of question marks here, but I suppose its an area that is left to historians, to musicologists to discover - maybe there is a Bach et al amongst them, or even a lesser figure of some merit?


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## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

to be honest i don't think there is anything like a "justly neglected composer". When you're a composer you write for yourself and to express yourself, while dreaming that someone, even if it is just one person in all of space and time, will once listen to your music and recognizes her or himself into it, feels moved by it and who even feels relief that there exist music to the ineffable feelings she or he feels (so that that person won't have to become a composer his/herself and can spend her/his time to do other things), that it can help them in the sometimes so difficult and painfull journey through this life, and give them hope to keep going on, like it did for the composer him/herself.

what then does it matter how many people listen to a certain composer, and how will you judge this is justly?
though its just the way i think, maybe someone will find it an interesting vision, maybe someone even feels the same, or maybe im just irritating, in that case just try to ignore this post ^^


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

KenOC said:


> .... It should be somebody we've heard of (if that's not too much of a contradiction...) :lol:


Pretty much every single one of these poor souls. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_21st-century_classical_composers


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think Siegfried Wagner fits the bill for obvious reasons. Yes, he was the son of you know who.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I think Siegfried Wagner fits the bill for obvious reasons. Yes, he was the son of you know who.


Soulima Stravinsky, and a host of other acorns which fell from mighty trees who did not grow up to be nearly as formidable an organism as the parent


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Since the other question has been raised so often! Who has been swept into the dustbin of history, and rightly so? It should be somebody we've heard of (if that's not too much of a contradiction...) :lol:


It's so nice of you to make a thread for justly neglected composers, they have to suffer all this indifference and oblivion but now there's finally a place where we can pay them respect by remembering them for being justly neglected mediocrities.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> And how about that Beethoven guy? "Mit Lebhaftigkeit und durchaus mit Empfindung und Ausdruck." Really? Hum a bar or two and I'll fake it...


Such a lyrical language, German. No wonder so many of its speakers turned to music instead


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think the category, "Unjustly neglected composers" is a near-perfect oxymoron.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Although I haven't heard it in fifty years, the "Toy Symphony" is the piece that first got me into classical music. When I was growing up, we had a twelve inch 78 Rpm record of it that I used to play all the time. I'm sure I would find it simplistic and boring nowadays, but there will always be a soft spot in my heart for it.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Weston said:


> A week ago my vote would have gone to Vasily Kalinnikov. I listened to a couple of his symphonies at work. Aside from a fantastic opening theme in Symphony No. 1, the music could have created its own new sacred genre: the TeDium. However I listened again yesterday and today, and now I'm not so sure. Maybe they were a little too perky for my mood last week. They seem just fine this week -- kind of in Dvorak territory without all the jangly triangle. Opinions change.


Really? I think it's a gorgeous work. Find it very Russian, vaguely recollect hearing echoes of Borodin in it - it's been a while since I listened to it. Each to their own.



ahammel said:


> I think Leopold Mozart would be very obscure indeed had he not spawned.


He did write a Trombone Concerto and I think that alone would keep him in the repertoire. (And almost does)

I'm thinking the likes of Hertz and Pixis who wrote all that C19th salony stuff, might be nice to break out to impress 
the ladies but nothing more


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I find his music kind of embarrassing, to be honest. Either I _really_ don't get it, or the "Gothic" Symphony is as terrible as it sounds.
> 
> Edit: Is this review an intentional parody???


I think that review is utterly sincere, and to boot, so is the heartfelt,_* "A performance by full British forces would be most welcome,"*_ completely genuine. LOL. Even if the beer abroad is as good or better, nothing like that home brewed brewski, I suspect.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

So there we have it.

Every composer, every piece, manages to find a sympathetic listener.

Every composer, every piece, manages to **** somebody off.

Didn't we already know that?


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Pretty easy to judge a composer by one work isn't it? Just because it's the most famous one doesn't always mean it's among the best either, as I've said before big works that are thought ambitious are often overpraised.

The problem with neglected composers is that being neglected we don't really know that much of their work to judge them fully.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I remember a few years ago there was a Rued Langgaard craze sweeping the classical music world. I bought his symphonies and wasn't too impressed. With a couple of exceptions, I thought every symphony either sounded like he was trying too hard at the "epic bombastic Romantic" stuff, or it was just boring. 

I don't know if anyone else agrees with me or not. The talk about him has died down so I think he is justly become neglected.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Xenakis, Stockhausen, and all the followers of extreme dissonance.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

My experience with Langgaard has been the same as violadude's.

I would not recommend to anyone that they should not listen to Langgaard's music for themselves, however.

Not everyone who listens to Langgaard will have the same responses to it that violadude and I have had.

We, now that we have been unimpressed, will not go out of our way to listen to any more Langgaard, justly or not, I neither know nor care. And I'm sure that there are composers I think are stupid and ugly that thrill violadude to his core. I am also equally sure that there are composers the thrill me to my core that violadude find to be stupid and ugly, and this is OK because violadude and I are two different people.

Simple.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Xenakis, Stockhausen, and all the followers of extreme dissonance.


Neither of those composers are remotely neglected.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> The temptation is to say Salieri, who is actually well-known for his (perceived) mediocrity. But even doesn't entirely fit the bill.


The only reason he is perceived as mediocre is because a fictional version of Mozart put forth that opinion, and people are too damn lazy to actually think for themselves.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I think Siegfried Wagner fits the bill for obvious reasons. Yes, he was the son of you know who.


Siegfried Wagner was rather a sad case. He was more or less raised to be a second Richard Wagner, but he just didn't have the talent (or, to hear some tell it, the interest).


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Neither of those composers are remotely neglected.


Well then the lesser known followers of this style.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Well then the lesser known followers of this style.


Like who, for example?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

BurningDesire said:


> The only reason he is perceived as mediocre is because a fictional version of Mozart put forth that opinion, and people are too damn lazy to actually think for themselves.


ABSOLOOTLEY

I wonder if all the critics of Salieri have tried Cecilia Bartoli's album dedicated to him or his adventurous French opera, _Danaides_. Or _Europa riconosciuta_. One has to dislike classical period style to the bone to not enjoy this music even a little bit.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

neoshredder said:


> Xenakis, Stockhausen, and all the followers of extreme dissonance.


Is this a response to the thread title or to something else.

Neither Xenakis nor Stockhausen have been neglected. At least not by record companies.

Something else, I would guess (only a guess!!), is wish-fulfillment. If I'm right, I would ask why it is important to you that other people besides yourself neglect "Xenakis, Stockhausen, and all the followers of extreme dissonance"?

I have another question, too, for everyone: how much "extreme modernism" are you exposed to? If you attend symphony concerts, you are exposed to exactly zero. If you listen to the radio, you are exposed to exactly zero. If you attend university recitals, you might get a tiny bit of exposure. Probably not, but possibly. You can find it if you search for it online, but why are you searching for something that you report as not liking at all?

Seems to me that there's a lot of kerfluffle about stuff that no one need have any contact with at all if they so desire. And things that don't affect you in any way don't affect you in any way. Or?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Like who, for example?


Nono, Grisey, Lachenmann, Kagel, and Sciarrino to name a few. Though all these Composers are neglected mostly to the general public. It's a different story on TC I know. They almost try to make them equals to the more well known Composers.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

violadude said:


> I remember a few years ago there was a Rued Langgaard craze sweeping the classical music world. I bought his symphonies and wasn't too impressed. With a couple of exceptions, I thought every symphony either sounded like he was trying too hard at the "epic bombastic Romantic" stuff, or it was just boring.
> 
> I don't know if anyone else agrees with me or not. The talk about him has died down so I think he is justly become neglected.


I think there are couple of reasons too, except from the dimension of kitsch and rather obscure religious content:

- 1) almost all his works have been recorded now, and there has been a pause in the releases & the sense of a new discovery back then

- 2) I found two of the major recording undertakings at times disappointing as regards the musicianship

- 3) Danish music as a whole is still very much a niche among the general public, and as regards recordings, it is rarely performed by foreign musicians, with the exception of Nielsen, Ruders and Nørgård

- 4) the apparent lack of in-depth studies in English of Langgaard´s works, his dilemmas and early-middle period innovations


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

joen_cph said:


> - 3) Danish music as a whole is still very much a niche among the general public, and as regards recordings, it is rarely performed by foreign musicians, with the exception of Nielsen, Ruders and Nørgård


... and Kuhlau?


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

some guy said:


> My experience with Langgaard has been the same as violadude's.
> 
> I would not recommend to anyone that they should not listen to Langgaard's music for themselves, however.
> 
> ...


Paul Simon said it best with the words "one man's ceiling is another man's floor."


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Aramis said:


> ... and Kuhlau?


correct, though we might tend to think of him as half-way German (and he belonged to former times, like Buxtehude).


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> I think there are couple of reasons too, except from the dimension of kitsch and rather obscure religious content:
> 
> - 1) almost all his works have been recorded now, and there has been a pause in the releases & the sense of a new discovery back then
> 
> ...


Hm, I'd be interested in hearing more. Do you like Langgaard's music? If so, what do you like about it? And what are the innovations you are talking about?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Just to let you know I'm not totally ignorant of this style, I'm going to listen to Xenakis radio right now on last.fm. A quick way to get a radio station of a style you want to look into. Varese - Poeme electronique is played at the moment. Sounds like a haunted house. lol


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Nono, Grisey, Lachenmann, Kagel, and Sciarrino to name a few. Though all these Composers are neglected mostly to the general public. It's a different story on TC I know. They almost try to make them equals to the more well known Composers.


Classical music in general is neglected by the general public. Those guys are recorded and performed regularly. (Don't know about the last couple, actually.)

Nono and Grisey in the same school?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Just to let you know I'm not totally ignorant of this style, I'm going to listen to Xenakis radio right now.


Because you think you'll enjoy it, or because you wish to complain about it?


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if he has been mentioned yet, but man, bloody Cherubini.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Classical music in general is neglected by the general public. Those guys are recorded and performed regularly. (Don't know about the last couple, actually.)
> 
> Nono and Grisey in the same school?


Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach aren't really neglected. Though they could be more popular than they are. The ratio between those 3 Composers to the ones I mentioned are like 100 listeners to 1. lol


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Because you think you'll enjoy it, or because you wish to complain about it?


I want to know more about the style. So I don't look like an ignorant complainer. But I guess it could possibly rub off on me and I might like it? Though that is a long shot.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ahammel said:


> because you think you'll enjoy it, or because you wish to complain about it?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^lol!!!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach aren't really neglected. Though they could be more popular than they are. The ratio between those 3 Composers to the ones I mentioned are like 100 listeners to 1. lol


Yes, and not many people listen to Gregorian chant or Inuit throat singing either. It's a niche audience. This does not necessarily indicate an objective problem with the music.

Regardless, I believe the intention of the thread was to discuss composers who are neglected *even by those who otherwise enjoy the style*. We already have like a billion threads dedicated to how terrible post-War music is.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> I want to know more about the style. So I don't look like an ignorant complainer. But I guess it could possibly rub off on me and I might like it? Though that is a long shot.


Have you considered simply adopting a "live and let live" approach?


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## stevenski (Oct 19, 2011)

Goldmark; that's a bit harsh; at least in respect of his stunningly beautiful Violin Concerto, full of ravishing melodies and idiomatic violin writing!Steve


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Yes, and not many people listen to Gregorian chant or Inuit throat singing either. It's a niche audience. This does not necessarily indicate an objective problem with the music.
> 
> Regardless, I believe the intention of the thread was to discuss composers who are neglected *even by those who otherwise enjoy the style*. We already have like a billion threads dedicated to how terrible post-War music is.


Then I misread this thread. I thought it was just about talking about why obscure Composers deserved to stay obscure. Whether it is their style of music choice or their music itself being inferior to those who also played that style.


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## stevenski (Oct 19, 2011)

Parry: that is ridiculous; some of his symphonies, for instance, are tightly constructed and very memorable meodically; the Fourth is very very deep(eg the nobilmente theme in the finale); and no.3 is sheer joyfulness.Steve


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

stevenski said:


> Goldmark; that's a bit harsh; at least in respect of his stunningly beautiful Violin Concerto, full of ravishing melodies and idiomatic violin writing!Steve


Well he only has 2 horses in the race-the Rustic Wedding Symphony and the violin concerto-not enough to sustain in the long run.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

violadude said:


> Hm, I'd be interested in hearing more. Do you like Langgaard's music? If so, what do you like about it? And what are the innovations you are talking about?


I don´t like all of it, but _Symphonies 6 and 10_ for instance are really fine works, the later receiving its best performance by Stupel. Some works have really nice melodic, or fascinatingly contrastful, material.

As regards his innovations, the "_Music of the Spheres_" is generally recognized. I prefer the Frandsen recording, didn´t like Rozhdestvensky, and haven´t heard Dausgaard http://www.langgaard.dk/musik/vaerker/128e.htm

Also, some lesser known piano works have innovative traits - like

"_Insektarium_" http://www.langgaard.dk/liv/bio/bio3ae.htm and 



 (the video series continues)

"_2nd Piano Sonata, Le Beguinage_" (with score indications of "banging the piano to pieces" etc. ... http://www.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/booklets/CLA/booklet-CLASSCD240.pdf

There are some experimenting/caleidoscopic features in some of his _string quartet writing _too. I haven´t heard the new recordings by the Nightingale Quartet, but they probably form an improvement http://www.classicstoday.com/review/langgaard-string-quartets-vol-1/


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Have you considered simply adopting a "live and let live" approach?


I've adopted a free speech approach. Complain and let others complain if they wish as well. Regardless of the style of music. This only goes for music thoughts and not personal.


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## stevenski (Oct 19, 2011)

Another ridiculous unsubstantiated assertion. Siegfried W is often very good: "Sehnsucht" is a stunningly beautiful memoriam to his lost lover; and the Symphony is excellent and exciting; well-constructed and orchestrated. He has his own voice, if influenced by RW and Humperdinck. The operas, I agree, are more uneven. "Sehnsucht" is available on the 5-disc CPO complete orchestral SW collection and on a separate Marco Polo download, (coupled with a piece by his lover, who died young in a war, Clement Harris, again no negligible composer!)Steve


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

some guy said:


> So there we have it.
> 
> Every composer, every piece, manages to find a sympathetic listener.
> 
> ...


Yep, no news there.

But for me, a lot of these named composers' works remind me of what Sir Thomas Beecham said about the English as audience:
"The English may not like music, but they absolutely love the noise it makes"

So Villiers, or Brahms, hey ho, what's the difference? Its all the same, i.e. good, isn't it?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

some guy said:


> Didn't we already know that?


Sure we did!



> Every composer, every piece, manages to find a sympathetic listener.
> 
> Every composer, every piece, manages to **** somebody off.


I don't think that these two a mutually opposite, most of the music that pisses me off is the one that I find most interesting!

I'm more worried about music that leave me in a lethargic state, unfortunately, it is a way to large category of music!

/ptr


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

neoshredder said:


> So I don't look like an ignorant complainer


In this you didn't succeed.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> I've adopted a free speech approach. Complain and let others complain if they wish as well. Regardless of the style of music. This only goes for music thoughts and not personal.


That's just as you like, of course. Doesn't seem like much fun to me.



stevenski said:


> Another ridiculous unsubstantiated assertion. Siegfried W is often very good: "Sehnsucht" is a stunningly beautiful memoriam to his lost lover; and the Symphony is excellent and exciting; well-constructed and orchestrated. He has his own voice, if influenced by RW and Humperdinck.


Hmm, I may have to give these a listen. I admit that I know Siegfried only by reputation.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Aramis said:


> In this you didn't succeed.


Hey I've listened to the style before. Maybe not recently as it got old for me quickly. I wanted to listen to melodies again. But I'll give it another shot. I know a lot of names and which ones tend to irritate my ears. Grisey for example is irritating me at this moment. lol


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> Hey I've listened to the style before. Maybe not recently as it got old for me quickly. I wanted to listen to melodies again. But I'll give it another shot. I know a lot of names and which ones tend to irritate my ears. Grisey for example is irritating me at this moment. lol


"Mainly melodies" is for those still in musical short pants.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Aramis said:


> In this you didn't succeed.


That comment is really uncalled for and unjustified, in light of the fact that the poster has specifically made the point that he is willing to listen to this genre so he won't be an "ignorant complainer". Did you happen to miss that part? Or perhaps you were too busy concocting this bit of snarky and patronizing "humor"(?)--if so, you should really check yourself before knocking a fellow member.


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## stevenski (Oct 19, 2011)

ahammel said:


> That's just as you like, of course. Doesn't seem like much fun to me.
> 
> Hmm, I may have to give these a listen. I admit that I know Siegfried only by reputation.


Ahammel. thanks for open-mindedness; would be interested to hear ur opinion on some SW; won't be offended if u don't like; Sehnsuch has 5, successive melodies on the run, all beautiful, one particularly so, which make mid period RW appear tedious.Steve


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

ptr said:


> I don't think that these two a mutually opposite, most of the music that pisses me off is the one that I find most interesting!


Oooooh, nice point! Very nice point indeed. I like this category very much.:tiphat:


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## stevenski (Oct 19, 2011)

PetrB said:


> "Mainly melodies" is for those still in musical short pants.


This is subjective judgement


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> "Mainly melodies" is for those still in musical short pants.


It's for those that like beautiful music. Nothing wrong with experimentation. But as I said, it gets old rather quickly. But I guess it has its place as it is kind of ambient.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> I want to know more about the style. So I don't look like an ignorant complainer. But I guess it could possibly rub off on me and I might like it? Though that is a long shot.


Just try to stay open and quiet, man. If you haven't picked up on it yet, your "free to complain" method is not working. An intelligent being won't play this "complaining" game because it's quite obvious how unproductive and silly it is. I'm not trying to be brash, I'm really trying to show you something here.

Complaining does not signify freedom in anyway. It shows that you are trapped by ill-founded concepts. I don't think you're a bad guy, but wake up a little eh?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Just try to stay open and quiet, man. If you haven't picked up on it yet, your "free to complain" method is not working. An intelligent being won't play this "complaining" game because it's quite obvious how unproductive and silly it is. I'm not trying to be brash, I'm really trying to show you something here.
> 
> Complaining does not signify freedom in anyway. It shows that you are trapped by ill-founded concepts. I don't think you're a bad guy, but wake up a little eh?


Hey I speak how I feel. I'm not looking to complain all the time. But that 10% of my thoughts about music should be allowed. I find it worse when people complain about the OP or a poster. That is personal. And though some are clever at wording their answers. I see an insult in there somewhere. I try to avoid conflicts but I can only take so many attacks.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Hey I speak how I feel. I'm not looking to complain all the time. But that 10% of my thoughts about music should be allowed. I find it worse when people complain about the OP or a poster. That is personal. And though some are clever at wording their answers. I see an insult in there somewhere. I try to avoid conflicts but I can only take so many attacks.


Attacks? Good grief, man. I was trying to help you out of your fog, because all it is causing is conflict around here. I'm about done with you.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Vesuvius said:


> Attacks? Good grief, man. I was trying to help you out of your fog, because all it is causing is conflict around here. I'm about done with you.


Well I didn't ask for any help. And the others should be responsible for their actions as well. They don't have to attack me just because I say something negative about a certain style. That was their choice to cause conflict.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

Shameless plug for my TurnaboutVox-thread for those interested in neglected composers.
This label is famous for providing shelter for obscure composers.
Just listened to konzertstuck for piano & Orchestra by Robert Volkmann, 1815-1883. Not offensive to anyone (not a dissonant to be found....) but I can't remember a thing about it, completely bland romanticism, done thousend times by others and better.
Quote from Sir George Grove on Volkmann: "Fluent, graceful, clever and not without originaliteit, it misses the qualities that makes music immortal."
More on this one in the Vox-thread soon!

Cheers,
Jos


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Volkmann Cello Concerto is probably a better work


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> "Mainly melodies" is for those still in musical short pants.


"_Mainly melodies_ is for those still in musical short pants" is for those with mushrooms growing on them already.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Past or present, if the works aren't speaking to us, and I'd add even if they are 'brilliant,' than for any individual, it is as 'just' to ignore those things which say nothing to them. We certainly do it with people who have nothing to say of any interest to us, why not with the musical works which are the same?

Even this most illustrious rather politically correct policy site still allows each and every one of us the option to hit "ignore" to block any member we choose


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> The Volkmann Cello Concerto is probably a better work


Yep, that one is on the flipside!

Cheers,
Jos


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Beating a dead horse*

Two of my problems with this tread are:

One: It is a variation on similar threads that have come before it. See the list below. There are many more like the "Era to Avoid" thread.

Two: It has turned into another let's bash what I dislike thread.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Two of my problems with this tread are:
> 
> One: It is a variation on similar threads that have come before it. See the list below. There are many more like the "Era to Avoid" thread.
> 
> Two: It has turned into another let's bash what I dislike thread.


Yet we gravitate toward it like a magnet. We know we shouldn't. But we can't help ourselves.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I feel it pulling me in ......


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> I feel it pulling me in ......


So easy to tempt people to the dark side of the Force...


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Well, at least I have found some kindred spirits here at Talk Classical.

I have such a hard time buying into the "genius" of Havergal Brian that his fans claim. His works come across to me as slapdash hodgepodge.

As for Laangaard: He's not terribly engaging. Yes, his approach to composing was a bit unique but the results are "MEH!"

And for the most part I would have fully agreed with panning Salieri until I bought the disc below. When played with "balls" like Fey does, his music gains stature.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> So easy to tempt people to the dark side of the Force...


Like J. Caesar heading to the Roman Senate one fine day in March.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Vasks said:


> Well, at least I have found some kindred spirits here at Talk Classical.
> 
> I have such a hard time buying into the "genius" of Havergal Brian that his fans claim. His works come across to me as slapdash hodgepodge.
> 
> ...


What have you heard by Langgaard - the 1st Symphony is definitely too long, for example.

BTW, I agree that recordings can mean a lot. Allegedly bad music can turn into something delightful.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Just a reminder: Please discuss the topic (neglected composers) and not other members' person or posting style.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

GiulioCesare said:


> Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if he has been mentioned yet, but man, bloody Cherubini.


If nothing else, I do enjoy his string quartets.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> I find his music kind of embarrassing, to be honest. Either I _really_ don't get it, or the "Gothic" Symphony is as terrible as it sounds.
> 
> Richard Strauss praised it, but he routinely praised mediocre talents if they were sufficiently influenced by him...
> 
> Edit: Is this review an intentional parody???


I think the Gothic is both admirably ambitious and a huge mess, a testament to youthful passion not yet tempered with experience, I think much the same of Langgaard's sprawling 1st symphony. I can't say I've heard any real masterpieces from either of them, but they really seemed to find their way as they went on, moving from huge monstrosities to very short and economical works, the major difference being that Langgaard was straight on to the short symphony with his 2nd while Brian's paring down of the form was much more decremental.

As for that review, the person who wrote it is from England, and although I can't say I share the trait, there is a strong sense of overriding national pride here which often fosters greater interest in our own composers (at least among those who are interested in classical music to begin with) and I think this can manifest itself in the most ridiculous hyperbole, sometimes even on the level one might expect to see in appraisals of certain "great" composers.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Vasks said:


> Well, at least I have found some kindred spirits here at Talk Classical.
> 
> I have such a hard time buying into the "genius" of Havergal Brian that his fans claim. His works come across to me as slapdash hodgepodge.


An apt turn of phrase. That was certainly my impression of the first bit of the Gothic symphony (I lost interest pretty quickly after that).


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Justly ignored ~ Gabriel Pierne
Piano concerto 





passable, and totally forgettable.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ahammel said:


> An apt turn of phrase. That was certainly my impression of the first bit of the Gothic symphony (I lost interest pretty quickly after that).


The next of numerous symphonies are about equal to that


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> What have you heard by Langgaard - the 1st Symphony is definitely too long, for example.


Three symphonies on one disc. As we say in American baseball: "Three strikes and you're out!" (well, I'll listen to him once in a while just in case I could change my mind)


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Vasks said:


> Three symphonies on one disc. As we say in American baseball: "Three strikes and you're out!" (well, I'll listen to him once in a while just in case I could change my mind)
> 
> View attachment 32281


Fair enough. Taste varies. I love the 4th and the 6th.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> I think the Gothic is both admirably ambitious and a huge mess, a testament to youthful passion not yet tempered with experience


Agreed. It's impressive that he took the time to write the thing, but the result isn't very compelling aside from the sheer mass of sound that it makes.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

I would have thought it obvious that the category "justly neglected composers" makes about as much sense as the categories of "overrated composers" and "underrated composers", i.e. none at all except in the mind of those individuals whose opinions are out of whack with that of the majority but who no doubt feel that they are right and the majority are wrong.


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Ah, what an ingenious way to improve your music: just write impressive-sounding adjectives in the performance directions! I believe Mozart's secret was to write "sound good" above all his piano parts.













Totally off-topic: where's kleinzeit been lately?


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> ...Anton Rubinstein...
> 
> But really, he's not even Russian sounding! Suits him well!


I have to disagree. Rubinstein wrote some very good music, with the opera "The Demon" being his pinnacle achievement (and glorious at that). His Fifth Piano Concerto, the Second Symphony, some of his piano works are quite up there (even Tchaikovsky learned a thing or two from his examples). His Cello Concerti are not bad either.

Cui in my opinion is less talented than Rubinstein (although his Suite Concertante for Violin and Orchestra is particularly ear-catching).


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Not to throw a wrench into things - and forgive me if I am repeating anything - but how can we not be sure that the justly neglected actually have been neglected and we simply know nothing of them anymore. The names we tend to mention are those that made it through with some degree of recognition, but how many names have simply been lost to history? How many names have simply been forgotten over the years, because their works didn't merit remembrance? For those who persisted this long, are they truly neglected? Not all will have the immortality of a Bach, or a Beethoven, or a Wagner or a (insert your favorite composer here), but there are a great many that will continue to be remembered for enjoyable works, nonetheless.


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

DrMike said:


> Not to throw a wrench into things - and forgive me if I am repeating anything - but how can we not be sure that the justly neglected actually have been neglected and we simply know nothing of them anymore. The names we tend to mention are those that made it through with some degree of recognition, but how many names have simply been lost to history? How many names have simply been forgotten over the years, because their works didn't merit remembrance? For those who persisted this long, are they truly neglected? Not all will have the immortality of a Bach, or a Beethoven, or a Wagner or a (insert your favorite composer here), but there are a great many that will continue to be remembered for enjoyable works, nonetheless.


One needs well-defined and broadly accepted definitions of "neglected", "not neglected", "justly", not justly" in order to make any progress with this.

No such definitions have been put forward to guide the discussion, and this is not surprising since probably none exists that fit the bill, especially regarding the justly/not justly distinction. As I suggested previously, the distinction between "justly" and "unjustly" is a nonsense anyway, since it usually entails minority opinion trying to usurp majority opinion.

All the discussion so far has been the expression of various entirely subjective opinions, perfectly illustrating the lack of suitable objective definitions. Without agreed definitions, it is futile to try to reach anything like a consensus on which composers match the definition given in the title of this thread. It will just go round and round with one squabble after another based on nothing except personal opinion and experience.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Partita said:


> One needs well-defined and broadly accepted definitions of "neglected", "not neglected", "justly", not justly" in order to make any progress with this.


Actually, we seem to be doing just fine without them, thanks.



Partita said:


> Without agreed definitions, it is futile to try to reach anything like a consensus on which composers match the definition given in the title of this thread


Perhaps we're not trying to reach a consensus. Perhaps we're just exchanging a bit of friendly banter about the fringes of our hobby, the way people who are enthusiastic about things do.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> Perhaps we're not trying to reach a consensus. Perhaps we're just exchanging a bit of friendly banter...


If anybody can remember a thread where we reached "consensus", perhaps they will point it out... :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Consensus was the emperor after Augustus? Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Consensus was the emperor after Augustus? Correct me if I'm wrong.


He was the emperor after Romulus Augustulus. 

Best regards, Dr


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Goldmark's opera "The Queen of Sheba" , which has been recorded by Hungaroton with Adam Fischer conducting,
is well worth hearing . It was widely performed until the early 20th century , and Gustav Mahler was 
a champion of it . The aria "Magic tones" used to be a showcase for famous tenors .
The opera is about the Biblical story of the Queen of Sheba and her legendary visit to king Solomon's court .
The recording may still be available from arkivmusic.com . I remember it all the way back from the dark age
of LPs .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

DrKilroy said:


> He was the emperor after Romulus Augustulus.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


I must have cut Introductory Ancient Roman History that day. Can't imagine why.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

dgee said:


> Everything is getting reconsidered and revived these days but in my opinion Auber, Meyerbeer, Weber, von Suppe, Stanford and Parry are among the names who can justly be considered as having been shuffled out of the concert hall and opera house forever


I agree wholeheartedly that Parry and Stanford deserve to be consigned to the dustbin. People in England seem constantly keen on reviving them but luckily it's never really caught on.

I would defend von Suppe on the strength of his rather rousing overtures (esp. Light Cavalry).


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## Guest (Jan 10, 2014)

Winterreisender said:


> I agree wholeheartedly that Parry and Stanford deserve to be consigned to the dustbin. People in England seem constantly keen on reviving them but luckily it's never really caught on.
> 
> I would defend von Suppe on the strength of his rather rousing overtures (esp. Light Cavalry).


I have a question. If a Parry and Stanford revival were to really catch on, however, how would that affect you?

That is, why "luckily"?

Andre Rieu is immensely popular. What I have seen of him horrifies me beyond belief. But his popularity really doesn't affect me at all.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

some guy said:


> I have a question. If a Parry and Stanford revival were to really catch on, however, how would that affect you?
> 
> That is, why "luckily"?


Because I don't like the sense of nationalism which surrounds the "English Musical Renaissance." I often sense that our attempts to resurrect these composers are really attempts at justifying that Britain had a distinctive and internationally relevant musical voice in the latter half of the 19th century, which is something I seriously question.

but each to their own, I guess...


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Naxos has extended life support to many JNCs. Nevertheless, final throes soon follow.

View attachment 32309


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Winterreisender said:


> Because I don't like the sense of nationalism which surrounds the "English Musical Renaissance." I often sense that our attempts to resurrect these composers are really attempts at justifying that Britain had a distinctive and internationally relevant musical voice in the latter half of the 19th century, which is something I seriously question


What you dislike so much is motor for many rediscoveries. Discography of works by many great composers would diminish tremendously if it weren't for those that were made in their countries because of this phenomena, in which there is nothing wrong at all, on the contrary. It's right for every nation to take care of it's heritage and even if it leads to promotion of something that is not much of a reason for national pride, there's little harm. Money is being spent on much more appaling things that recording and performing 2nd/3rd rate classical music.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

Aramis said:


> What you dislike so much is motor for many rediscoveries. Discography of works by many great composers would diminish tremendously if it weren't for those that were made in their countries because of this phenomena, in which there is nothing wrong at all, on the contrary. It's right for every nation to take care of it's heritage and even if it leads to promotion of something that is not much of a reason for national pride, there's little harm. Money is being spent on much more appaling things that recording and performing 2nd/3rd rate classical music.


You make a fair point. I'm just reluctant to see composers such as Parry and Stanford as having a great deal to do with English/British heritage. I find the circumstances in which such music came about, i.e. a group of elite music professors attempting to create a new music for people, as being rather misguided.


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2014)

Winterreisender said:


> Because I don't like the sense of nationalism which surrounds the "English Musical Renaissance."


No argument here. Nationalism is not one of the better ideas that humans have come up with. The sooner we dispense with it, the better, I think.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

some guy said:


> So there we have it.
> 
> Every composer, every piece, manages to find a sympathetic listener.
> 
> ...


Yes but it gets much more interesting in terms of how many times a piece finds sympathetic listeners consistently over time and likewise for the other end, as far as this thread is concerned for the composer. If a piece or oeuvre by composer X does not gel with listeners over time, then the poor soul ends up neglected.

Didn't we already know that?


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

some guy said:


> No argument here. Nationalism is not one of the better ideas that humans have come up with. The sooner we dispense with it, the better, I think.


It is not nationalism in itself that I dislike, but rather the idea that a national sound or identity can be artificially created.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

some guy said:


> No argument here. Nationalism is not one of the better ideas that humans have come up with. The sooner we dispense with it, the better, I think.


I think you confuse nationalism with atonality.

EHEHEHHEEEHEHHEE GOOD ONE


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

It seems to me like Prokofiev has entered a period of neglect. When I was a kid his music was being regularly performed.
Now that I am a kid at heart, finding his compositions in the concert hall seems rare.
Score one for unjust neglect.


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

hpowders said:


> It seems to me like Prokofiev has entered a period of neglect. When I was a kid his music was being regularly performed.
> Now that I am a kid at heart, finding his compositions in the concert hall seems rare.
> Score one for unjust neglect.


Prokofiev is not that hard to find performances of. A symphony I am in love with and still have not had the opportunity to grasp a performance of is the Hans Rott symphony. That is a wonderful composer who should not be forgotten.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

stevederekson said:


> Prokofiev is not that hard to find performances of. A symphony I am in love with and still have not had the opportunity to grasp a performance of is the Hans Rott symphony. That is a wonderful composer who should not be forgotten.


I have to investigate the Rott. Sounds like I'm a home insurance appraiser!


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

superhorn said:


> Goldmark's opera "The Queen of Sheba" , which has been recorded by Hungaroton with Adam Fischer conducting,
> is well worth hearing . It was widely performed until the early 20th century , and Gustav Mahler was
> a champion of it . The aria "Magic tones" used to be a showcase for famous tenors .
> The opera is about the Biblical story of the Queen of Sheba and her legendary visit to king Solomon's court .
> ...


If memory serves me correctly, Strauss and Toscanini also conducted this very fine opera (from what I read). That said, the LP album is much more impressive presentation-wise than the CD re-issue, which is fairly pathetic.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Czerny. He wrote more than just etudes, but really shouldn't have. [ok that was kinda mean but still]


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

; I hate nationalism ; 

The fact is that all permanent members from the International Society of Schumann-Brahms Imitators have been removed from the repertoire for a very good almost tautological reason.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

hpowders said:


> It seems to me like Prokofiev has entered a period of neglect. When I was a kid his music was being regularly performed.
> Now that I am a kid at heart, finding his compositions in the concert hall seems rare.
> Score one for unjust neglect.


Thankfully, he may be at most partly neglected, but not everywhere. If you have an opportunity to come to Saint-Petersburg, there are six operas and three ballets by Prokofiev (not counting concerts) performed quite frequently in the Mariinsky.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Autumn Leaves said:


> Thankfully, he may be at most partly neglected, but not everywhere. If you have an opportunity to come to Saint-Petersburg, there are six operas and three ballets by Prokofiev (not counting concerts) performed quite frequently in the Mariinsky.


Very rarely played on concerts anymore in the US. You get the classical symphony; the third piano concerto. Ballet companies will perform Romeo and Juliet occasionally (his best music, IMO)

But go try and hear the other symphonies. Rare to find even the Fifth, which used to be fairly regularly programmed.
The two violin concertos. Forget about it.

I have all the Prokofiev I will ever need at home, but it doesn't make it any less a shame.

This man was one of the absolute greats!!!


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