# Beethoven Piano Trios - Borodin Trio



## Malx

A simple request really rather than a thread - does anyone have knowledge of the Borodin Piano Trios recordings of Beethoven on the Chandos label? 

I am curious to find out how well regarded they are.


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## Quartetfore

Malx said:


> A simple request really rather than a thread - does anyone have knowledge of the Borodin Piano Trios recordings of Beethoven on the Chandos label?
> 
> I am curious to find out how well regarded they are.


One critic wrote that the performance was way on the Romantic side. In fact he thought that they sounded a bit like Brahms. I think without ever hearing their recordings, there are others more in the style of of current thoughts about the works.


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## Malx

Quartetfore - thanks for the reply. One to avoid perhaps!


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## Quartetfore

Malx said:


> Quartetfore - thanks for the reply. One to avoid perhaps!


Its just a matter taste. Try to hear the recording if you can, and then decide.


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## Malx

I did sample them on Spotify and found them to be over well upholstered - just too comfortable and safe. I'd hesitate to say old fashioned but perhaps they were!


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## Josquin13

Malx--In addition, I don't recall the sound quality on the early Chandos Borodin CDs being all that good (as they're from 1987, and haven't been remastered, as far as I know). But then, I have problems with many chamber music recordings from the early years of the CD technology (unless they've been remastered, or possibly if you're downloading).

Among recent sets, have you heard the Oliver Schnyder Trio? Their Beethoven set has impressed me, & I'd recommend sampling their playing (which is HIP on modern instruments): plus, they've been given good sound, and at $13.50--current asking price on Amazon US--the set is a bargain):

https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-Van-B...&keywords=beethoven+piano+trios+schnyder+trio

Other sets worth sampling & considering are, IMO: the Abegg Trio (on Tacet--though it's never been boxed), Suk Trio (on Denon, which has likewise never been boxed), Beaux Arts Trio (I may slightly prefer their 2nd cycle, with Isidore Cohen on violin), Ashkenazy-Perlman-Harrell, and Dupre-Barenboim-Zukerman (who offer a fine performance of the "Ghost" Trio--largely due to Dupre's beautiful cello playing). Trio Élégiaque makes a good discount set too (on Brilliant). The Stuttgart Trio on Naxos gets good reviews, as well, but I haven't heard them.

I was less enthusiastic about sets from Trio Wanderer (who I normally like), TrioVanBeethoven (due to their aggressive, overly emphatic pianist, which I found frustrating, since otherwise their playing is exceptional--though others may not mind this pianist), and the Florestan Trio (who I found a bit boring in Beethoven). The Guarneri Trio, Prague is also very good, but I don't like their set quite as much as I used to (on repeated listening).

Among individual recordings, the Vienna Piano Trio's earlier two recordings for Nimbus are exceptional; as is a single hybrid SACD from the Kempf Trio (Freddy Kempf on piano). On Amazon (as you may recall), Edgar used to recommend these 3 remarkable recordings, and I completely agree with him:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Ar...675982&sr=1-13&keywords=beethoven+piano+trios
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pi...&keywords=beethoven+piano+trios+vienna+nimbus
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pi...&keywords=beethoven+piano+trios+vienna+nimbus

More recently, the Swiss Piano Trio cycle (on Audite) and Volume 1 of a new cycle from the Van Bearle Trio have received good reviews, but I don't know the Swiss Trio recordings well enough to recommend their cycle, and I haven't heard the Van Bearle trio at all (though I like their pianist):

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Co...16&sr=1-3&keywords=beethoven+piano+trios+sacd
https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-B...1-3&keywords=beethoven+piano+trios+swiss+trio

Among the older sets, I recently listened to part of the Kempff-Szeryng-Fournier DG cycle, and was surprisingly disappointed. The performances don't sound as good as they used to (& are overly romantic, IMO), & I had to admit they've been surpassed by others.

I also used to like Casals-Vegh-Horszowski Trio in the Archduke, but haven't listened to that performance in a long time.

Hope that helps.


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## Quartetfore

I have three of the sets that Josquin listed. the Trio wanderer, Floristan and the Vienna Piano Trio. we differ when it comes to the Wanderer recording, I don`t hear the Piano part as he does. I have no special feelings about the Vienna Trio, but I agree 100% about the Floristan recordings--dull


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## classfolkphile

Josquin was referring to the Trio Van Beethoven regarding the over emphatic piano, Quartrefore, not the Trio Wanderer. However I also disagree with him about the latter group, which I like a good deal. I do agree with him about the Kempf Trio in the Archduke and I like the Cortort-Thibaud-Casals Trio in the same piece, old and romantic as it is. The Stuttgart Trio is also excellent in the Archduke though I haven't heard the other performances in their set.

I like the Barenboim-Zukerman-DuPre and Guarneri Trio Prague sets. I don't like the Ashkenazy-Perlman-Harrell set as it sounds too much like three superstar soloists and not enough like an integrated trio. The Beaux-Arts somehow also never sounded right to me (I haven't listened to them in a long time) and the Kempff-Szernyg-Fournier set has an extremely hard sounding piano.


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## Quartetfore

classfolkphile said:


> Josquin was referring to the Trio Van Beethoven regarding the over emphatic piano, Quartrefore, not the Trio Wanderer. However I also disagree with him about the latter group, which I like a good deal. I do agree with him about the Kempf Trio in the Archduke and I like the Cortort-Thibaud-Casals Trio in the same piece, old and romantic as it is. The Stuttgart Trio is also excellent in the Archduke though I haven't heard the other performances in their set.
> 
> I like the Barenboim-Zukerman-DuPre and Guarneri Trio Prague sets. I don't like the Ashkenazy-Perlman-Harrell set as it sounds too much like three superstar soloists and not enough like an integrated trio. The Beaux-Arts somehow also never sounded right to me (I haven't listened to them in a long time) and the Kempff-Szernyg-Fournier set has an extremely hard sounding piano.


Stand corrected


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## Josquin13

Normally, I try to confirm my memory of a recorded performance before I write a post (a wise thing to do), and I didn't do that with my previous post. As I had initially only intended to mention & recommend the Oliver Schynder Trio, and got carried away. So hang on...

Today I've listened to TrioVanBeethoven on You Tube, and didn't hear any overly emphatic or agogic playing from the pianist. In fact, he played quite sensitively and well on the clips. So I'm going to have to re-listen to the two CDs I own from their cycle. As I don't want to be unfair to a fine musician. I also now wonder if the recording balance could have placed too much emphasis on the piano on one of their CDs. I'll have to recheck. All I remember is that it bothered me enough that I didn't buy the rest of their cycle (two remaining CDs). Though I suppose it could be that the agogic playing was on only one or two trios (or possibly on one of my favorite piano trios). But I want to make sure, so bear with me, and I'll return after re-listening to their Beethoven--maybe I'll change my mind.

(Here are the TrioVanBeethoven clips I listened to:









)

In fact, I'm going to re-listen to a bunch of the Beethoven recordings I mentioned yesterday evening, over the next few days or week (as I enjoy this music)--including Trio Wanderer's Beethoven, since two people have already (politely) disagreed with me (which doesn't happen very often), and as I said above, I do normally like Trio Wanderer (as I think their Haydn is first rate, for example).

Funny, I had expected people would strongly disagree with me about the Florestan Trio's Beethoven (given the heaps of accolades they've received from the British rags), but surprisingly, so far I've received agreement on their Beethoven.

I did re-listen to part of the Oliver Schnyder Trio's Beethoven set last night, and can confirm that it's a very fine set (as I had remembered). Although I should probably add that their playing may be an adjustment for those listeners used to a full blown 'late' romantic style in these trios. As the OS violinist, for example, can be somewhat judicious in his use of vibrato, and the cellist likewise doesn't uniformly adopt a big lush tone. (Those listeners who are used to Fournier or Dupre, for example, may find that the cellist lacks a certain tonal heft in places.) Such qualities, however, pay huge dividends in the quicker outer movements, which are performed in a more or less HIP style; as the Oliver Schnyder Trio give you a strong sense of how Beethoven was hearing these outer movements, and how thrilling, brash, and rapid fire the music can be (especially in the piano part).

P.S. I didn't mention the legendary Cortot-Thibaud-Casals set because it's a historical set, with historical sound, and Malx was interested in a Beethoven set from the digital era. (I'm also not a huge Cortot fan, for a number of reasons, not just due to his piano playing, though I do listen to his Chopin occasionally.)


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## Josquin13

As I said I would, today I listened to & compared three ensembles in the first two movements of Beethoven's "Ghost" Piano Trio No. 5 in D Major, Op. 70--the Oliver Schnyder Trio, Guarneri Trio/Prague, and Trio Wanderer. The Oliver Schnyder Trio is brilliant, vibrant, & lively in the 1st movement, and I preferred their performance to Trio Wanderer's by a good margin. I think this is wonderful playing, especially from the pianist, who tends to grab your interest and hold it (see link below). In the 2nd movement the OST finds a surprising combination of high drama and angst. It's a more youthful, vigorous interpretation than the Guarneri's, with a stronger sense of attack (in both movements). Trio Wanderer gives a similar interpretation to the OST, but they're more introverted and darker in places, especially in the second movement. I can't say I responded as favorably to TW's interpretation of the middle movement either. I also didn't like the way the TW violinist has been recorded by Harmonia Mundi, as the sound engineering isn't flattering towards his violin tone (& I remembered that this is one of the reasons why I wasn't crazy about their set when I first bought it). At times, the violin even grated on me--though I realize that this criticism may be stereo system dependent.

If anyone's curious, here's a link to the Oliver Schnyder Trio playing the "Ghost" Trio, Op. 70:






I then listened to the Guarneri Trio, Prague, and was reminded why I used to recommend this ensemble as my first pick among complete sets over at the Amazon Classical forum. Their interpretations are not as extroverted or as energetic or forward driven as the OS Trio. But, for me, they showed a greater wisdom and deeper musical insight. Their conception of the "Ghost" is different from the other two groups, especially in the 2nd movement, where they're more warmly expressive (& yet I don't think overly romantic either). Here the Guarneri Trio finds a plaintive beauty and sense of repose, while the other groups find mostly angst and suffering. I also thought the Guarneri pianist was wonderfully imaginative, and that his piano playing stood out as truly exceptional. So, I take back what I said yesterday, the Guarneri Trio are first rate in this music & better than "very good". I also thought they were the most naturally recorded of the three groups. The OS Trio has good sound too, but the dynamic range is wider.

I also listened to the Borodin Trio in these two movements. I liked their pianist & cellist a good deal, but not so much their 1st violinist, who uses the occasional violin slide and can be a tad sloppy or clumsy? in places (with questionable intonation?). I agree that their performance is more romantic, but that is largely (if not entirely) to do with the 1st violinist.






Finally, I also listened to Trio Fontenay. On first impression, I found them somewhat Teutonic--as there's a certain inflexibility and rigidity that creeps into their playing, which I wasn't entirely comfortable with. They could even occasionally sound a little mechanical (partly due to the pianist?), though obviously they're a highly accomplished & polished ensemble--so perhaps I'm nitpicking. I also see that their Beethoven set won the 1994 German Music Critic's Award, so what do I know.






Right now, the Oliver Schnyder and Guarneri Trio/Prague are my two top picks, especially since both sets compliment each other well--one offering more youthful and energetic playing, and the latter a greater wisdom & deeper insight (likely gained from having played this music over several decades, as it's an older group). But I plan to listen to more recordings (& groups) over the next week and will report back. I hope that someone finds my explorations interesting & worth reading.

P.S.--By the way, the entire Oliver Schnyder Beethoven set has been posted on You Tube, for anyone's that curious to hear the full set:


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## Josquin13

Tonight, I listened to more ensembles in the first two movements of the "Ghost" trio (my current measuring stick, until I move on to the "Archduke"). Some brief thoughts & reactions:

1. Swiss Piano Trio--very good playing, & full of energy, but maybe a little over-dramatised for my tastes. I also didn't like their slow movement quite as well as others. Excellent sound from Audite.

2. Abegg Trio--Another very good ensemble. In the quieter passages, their approach to Beethoven is on a more intimate scale than the other groups I've heard. I felt like I was eavesdropping on a deeply personal utterance in the slow movement. Like the Guarneri Trio, the Abegg Trio wisely holds back in the 1st movement--in contrast to some of the more youthful groups, who gallop through at a brisk, energetic pace, making the movement sound quite dramatic. I think it works better to play this 1st movement with a bit more classical restraint. I would say the Abegg Trio offers one the more nuanced performances I've heard so far. They employ a full range of expression, with lots of different shades. The score is crystal clear. Tacet's sound engineering helps, as it's excellent. I was surprised to find that their "Ghost" Trio was recorded as far back as 1987 (the set being recorded roughly between 1987-98). I can see why this cycle has been rated a "benchmark" set at ClassicsToday by Jed Distler--though Distler was not without his criticisms (see link below). Here's a You Tube clip to the LP version:






Here's Distler's review of Volume III of their cycle:

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4378/

3. Haydn Trio Eisenstadt--Excellent, spirited performances. However, the recording balances are wacky. Unfortunately, this excellent group has been badly recorded (or rather miked), and trying to hear the whole score becomes a game of musical hide and seek. At times, the piano struck me as too recessed & distant in relation to the cello and violin. If you want to hear all the musical lines clearly, this is not the version to go for. Though I suppose what I was hearing could be partly stereo system dependent. I can't recall ever having heard another recording by the "Phoenix Edition" label... Curiously, judging from the booklet photos, the Eisenstadt's violinist looks to be the same violinist as in TrioVanBeethoven. EDIT--I've just checked, and it is--violinist Verena Stourzh. Evidently, Haydn Trio Eisenstadt disbanded in 2010, and she moved on.

4. Trio Élégiaque--I had remembered this French group as being very good, but not this good. Like the Guarneri and Abegg Trios they hold back a bit in the first movement. It is beautiful playing. In the slow movement, they're even more remarkable--wise beyond their years. This may be the finest young piano trio today. I was impressed by what I heard. They're also very well recorded (by Brilliant? or did some other label record them first & Brilliant license the recordings?). In addition, they offer 5 CDs instead of the usual 3 CDs, which allows them to include a number of Beethoven rarities: such as the Piano Trio Op. 36 (after Beethoven's 2nd Symphony), the Op. 38 Trio (after his Op. 20 Septet), the Op. 63 Trio (after his Op. 4 String Quintet), plus the various WoO trios: all for around $15-16 on Amazon. In other words, everything is included here. Which makes the set an even more attractive bargain than the 3 CD Oliver Schnyder Trio set. I plan to listen to more of TE's set, but if it's all as fine as what I heard tonight it may well end up being my first choice (budget or not).

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Pia...id=1526953651&sr=1-11&keywords=trio+elegiaque

By the way, Trio Élégiaque's entire set, nearly 6 hours of music!, can be heard for free on You Tube:






I hope people don't mind that I'm using this thread as a place to write out my listening notes & thoughts for the week. If so, just let me know, & I'll stop.


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## classfolkphile

Josquin13 said:


> I hope people don't mind that I'm using this thread as a place to write out my listening notes & thoughts for the week. If so, just let me know, & I'll stop.


Not at all. I, at least, find your referrals and comments generous and helpful. Thank you.


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## Ras

Malx said:


> A simple request really rather than a thread - does anyone have knowledge of the Borodin Piano Trios recordings of Beethoven on the Chandos label?
> 
> I am curious to find out how well regarded they are.


Hi Malx
The Borodin Trio's Beethoven set from Chandos is on Spotify:


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## Josquin13

Classfolkphile--Thanks for your kind words (& encouragement). I'll continue...

Today, I've listened to the Borodin Trio a second time in the "Ghost", & liked them less. The pianist, Luba Edlina, is terrific, but the cellist & violinist aren't always nimble enough in the outer movements for me: at least, not in comparison to the others groups I've been listening to. The music making doesn't always seem to flow naturally in these movements. In comparison to the more youthful groups today, the Borodin string players can come off as a bit fragmented (& in spots, idiosyncratic), even though they scrupulously follow Beethoven's dynamic markings. There was also too much (late romantic) sliding into notes for my tastes. (Am I the only one that hears occasional intonation problems in the violinist's playing?)

Generally, the Borodin's approach is too heavily romantic for my tastes--their "Ghost" Trio can sound Brahmsian (and it probably shouldn't), & not always classical enough. (Though I've noticed they play in the earlier piano trios in a more classical vein.) Admittedly, as you'd expect from the Borodin's more moderate, relaxed approach, they find a good deal of interpretive depth in the slow movement of the "Ghost". If that's how people like their Beethoven, the Borodin set probably makes a good choice (despite my issues with the 1st violinist's intonation). (Though Dupre-Zukerman-Barenboim play in a similar romantic vein, & may be preferable...?)

The entire Borodin set can be listened to on You Tube (in addition to Spotify):


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## Josquin13

Yesterday, I listened to the Storioni Trio play the first two movements of the Ghost Trio. I'd say this is the least of the performances I've heard so far. If the Swiss Piano Trio "over-dramatised" the "Ghost", the Storioni does so times 2. They resort to heavy agogic accents, overemphases, and the occasional pounding on the piano keys in the first movement (which I dislike). The slow movement doesn't fare much better, as the same thing happens, but on a more reduced scale, and they're a tad brisker than is normal, which gives the movement a slightly rushed feel, at times (on the other trio in the coupling, they strangely slow down in the first movement). Such unrestrained playing might work for Tchaikovsky's Piano Trio (or maybe Brahms)--that is, if we excuse away their approach as due to 'late Romantic' intensity and passion, but it doesn't work for the Beethoven, not in my view.

Evidently, the Storioni Trio comes from the Evgeny Kissin school of Beethoven interpretation: who likewise automatically (& rather mindlessly) pounds the piano keys when he wants to show "emotion" in the score--thereby reducing long mercurial passages to a single dimension, & severely generalizing what is being expressed. As I listener, I pull back, rather than am drawn forward.

In my view, Beethoven cared deeply about the delicacy and sensitivity of his piano touch and sound--while he still had his hearing. That is evident from the varied and subtle range of his early to middle piano sonatas, particularly when they are played on a less resonant and unwieldy period piano. So I can't imagine that he liked ugly, loud, intemperate playing. Therefore, I don't think he would have enjoyed the Storoni's overemphasized, outsized "late Romantic" playing any more than I have. Though granted, it may mirror how he played the piano in his later years: that is, after he'd lost most of his hearing, & was forced to pound on the keys relentlessly in order to simply hear the notes. As Schindler wrote, Beethoven's piano playing sounded magical if you were standing outside the house on the other side of the street.

https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Trios-BEETHOVEN/dp/B0009IE72A





 --Note that the source of my criticism isn't as blatant on this listening clip--as the YT sound is more subdued than on the actual hybrid SACD. But if you turn the volume up, you'll get a better idea about what bothered me in regards to this performance. (Although in the 3rd movement, the Storoni Trio becomes surprisingly more restrained & classical, which shows them at their best in Beethoven.)

Then I listened to the Vienna Piano Trio on MDG (another hybrid SACD), who have a mostly new line up since their fine Nimbus Beethoven recordings (only pianist Stefan Mendl remains the same). To be brief, I don't think the new Vienna Trio's line up is quite as good as the old one, at least not at the time this recording was made. So I wouldn't recommend this recording either, though it is better than the Storioni's.

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pi...1-1&keywords=vienna+piano+trio+beethoven+sacd

This is a much preferable Beethoven disc, IMO, from the earlier line up of the Vienna Piano Trio:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pi...1&sr=1-2&keywords=vienna+piano+trio+beethoven


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## classfolkphile

So I thought I’d piggyback and followup on Josquin’s wonderful commentary on the various Beethoven piano trio sets to add a few thoughts, though mostly to second his. 

But first, a couple of corrections. 
The Kempff Szeryng Fournier set has a less hard sound in the more recent remastering but is still not exceptional in any way: performances too romantic (in a Brahmsian way) with only fair sound.
I said I liked the Cortot Thibaud Casals "Archduke" Trio and I did a lot when I first heard it. I still appreciate it but it’s not been a favorite for a while (I’ve actually listened more to the Horszowski Vegh Casals in recent years). I think I tune into it when discussing the "Archduke" as it was one of the recordings that first generated my love for chamber music. There are many better recordings of No. 7 now and my favorite, which I neglected to mention previously, is the one by the Trio di Milano: Bruno Canino, Mariana Sirbu, Rocco Filippini. The sweetest, most delicate (in a Schubertian mode), best balanced performance I’ve heard. In excellent sound as well. It’s a shame the group made so few recordings.

I don’t have either the Trio Fontenay or the Storioni Trio in any Beethoven but I do have the former in the Dvorak and the latter in the Schubert trios. I find their playing in those pieces (rigid and inflexible for the former and overemphatic for the latter) in line Josquin’s descriptions of their playing in Beethoven.

I’ve sampled a couple of the Borodin trios on Spotify: definitely on the heavily romantic side of things, so worth a listen but not a top contender.

I seem to enjoy the Trio Wanderer more than Josquin does: their dark and introverted quality in spots appeals to me. In my system, the violin is at times a touch wiry but never enough to really bother me.

I also rate the Guarneri Trio Prague highly: it’s been my favorite set. Excellent sound and playing.

Inspired by Josquin’s descriptions, I’ve been sampling the Oliver Schnyder Trio and the Trio Elegiaque on Spotify. Both are exceptional and seem just as he has described. I’ve ordered the latter and may purchase the former as well.


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## Enthusiast

Among others, I do like the recordings that the young Barenboim made with Zukerman and Du Pre. I have also enjoyed the Op.70 and Op.97 (Archduke) that Isabelle Faust made with Jean-Guihen Queyras and Alexander Melnikov (playing a fortepiano) and the recording that the Kempf Trio made of Op.1/3 and Op.97.


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