# Second Species of Counterpoint



## Jord

After becoming very familiar with the First Species and doing all the exercises it feels that the Second Species took about 10 minutes to understand most of it but there are still things i don't understand,

On page 43/44 with parallel fifths and octaves, why is parallel octaves with the highest note going down to a 6th on the upbeat wrong whereas parallel octaves with the highest note going down to a 5th on the upbeat instead?

and if anyone could just clarify the second species please,
my general understanding is that every down beat must be a consonance and every upbeat must be a consonance unless it's moving from the preceding note to the following note stepwise.

If the cantus firmus is in the lower voice the second to last bar must have a 5th followed by a major 6th or a 5th followed by a minor 3rd is the cantus firmus is in the upper part, pretty much an extended version of what happens in the first species but we're just adding a 5th before?


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## paulc

> "On page 43/44 with parallel fifths and octaves, why is parallel octaves with the highest note going down to a 6th on the upbeat wrong whereas parallel octaves with the highest note going down to a 5th on the upbeat instead?"


That's just the way it is. According to the text, the intervening skip of a fourth (eg. with C in the bass, C an octave above moves to G below, followed by B above and B an octave above) or greater lessens the effect of the otherwise parallel octave to the ear. C->A->B in the upper voice with the same bass (C->B) isn't permissable. So says Fux.  18th century / "Bach" counterpoint allows for more freedom in this regard.



> "my general understanding is that every down beat must be a consonance and every upbeat must be a consonance unless it's moving from the preceding note to the following note stepwise."


Yes, the downbeat must be consonant. The upbeat may be consonant OR if it is a passing tone, dissonant.



> "If the cantus firmus is in the lower voice the second to last bar must have a 5th followed by a major 6th or a 5th followed by a minor 3rd is the cantus firmus is in the upper part, pretty much an extended version of what happens in the first species but we're just adding a 5th before?"


For the most part. I think at least one of the modes (E?) messes up this neat rule.


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## Jord

paulc said:


> For the most part. I think at least one of the modes (E?) messes up this neat rule.


yeah there is an example of that in the book and thanks 
and playing the parallel fifths and octaves with the skip of a 3rd and a 4th, i don't like either of them just with 2 voices but i don't see a problem with either of them so i'm gonna probably ignore the rule after i've done the exercises


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## Jord

When writing for the second species do you write 2 notes - 1, for example writing 1 bar with the counterpoint in the higher voice playing a A - F and a D in the cantus firmus, then the next bar

or

write a A in the counterpoint higher voice, a D in the cantus firmus, write the notes for the next bar and then fill in where the 2nd note should be in bar one?


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## millionrainbows

You might want to ponder the sounds of the intervals themselves, and play with moving them around at the piano.

You might be interested in my blog Root Movement, from which this excerpt is drawn:


1. Strong, or Ascending: (a) A fourth up, identical with a fifth down; 

...this is because when we hear fourths as a simultaneous sounding of two notes, we always hear fourths with the top note as root; in root function terms, we have moved UP TO this note (higher in pitch, within the upper octave above the root); this makes it 'strong' or 'ascending' TO the root on top. 

A fifth down (lower in pitch below the root, in the octave below the root) is the inversion; when we hear both notes at once, we always hear fifths with the bottom note as root, as we do with all fifths. Every head-banger knows this. Spread out horizontally, a fifth down means the second (bottom) note is root.


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## paulc

Jord said:


> "When writing for the second species do you write 2 notes - 1"


See the examples in the book. For every bar containing a whole note in the cantus firmus, you write two half notes in the bar above or below. The first half note can be replaced with a rest.

You should consider the counterpoint as a whole, so it is sometimes a good idea to fill in good progressions in later bars and then get the surrounding bars in your counterpoint to fit. The order you add the notes isn't important, as long as the result is good.

Does this help?


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## Jord

paulc said:


> See the examples in the book. For every bar containing a whole note in the cantus firmus, you write two half notes in the bar above or below. The first half note can be replaced with a rest.
> 
> You should consider the counterpoint as a whole, so it is sometimes a good idea to fill in good progressions in later bars and then get the surrounding bars in your counterpoint to fit. The order you add the notes isn't important, as long as the result is good.
> 
> Does this help?


Kind of, what i wanted to know was how other people write for the second species, if they write bar 1 with a whole note in the bass and treble clef, and then the same with bar 2, then in the treble in bar 1 fill in the note that would be most appropriate from bar 1 - bar 2, or write from start to finish?


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## paulc

If you're asking what I think you are, write from start to finish. DON'T write your counterpoint in first species and then try to add the half note on the upbeat later on. The downbeat for a bar in first species can be different in second species due to the added note and the necessity to get the upbeat into a convenient position.

Otherwise, I don't understand your question.


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## Jord

Yeah thanks that was the question :lol:


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## wogandmush

The pattern | 8 5 | 8 5 | is particularly disagreeable because of the higher concentration of perfect consonances. In second species, and in general, it is usually preferable to keep perfect consonances to keep perfect consonances as far apart as possible.

Note that while | 8 6 | 8 6 | is not forbidden, it is less than ideal for the same reason: the close proximity of the octaves to one another.


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