# Beethoven: Bagatelles and Sonatas



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Have you noticed any similarities between the Bagatelles and Sonatas for piano? This thread is all about the bagatelles and sonatas and their relationship as compositions — and in the process of sketching and composing.

I will start.

Ever since I played the sonata Op. 90 in E minor, I have experienced that it is the Sonata Für Elise or Für Elise is the Bagatelle for the Sonata. Anyone see/hear what I mean?


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

The bagatelles are special since they give you the essence of Beethoven in short form.
The opus 33 bagatelles are great counter pieces to the early/middle period sonatas, inventive and rewarding, and not too hard to play.
But it's the two sets of late Bagatelles that should be studied by anyone who wants to understand late Beethoven. They're a perfect introduction to the trio of late sonatas, op. 109-111, since they cover the same sound world in a compressed form. The opus 126 were the last music that Beethoven wrote for the piano, even after the Diabelli Variations.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RobertJTh said:


> The bagatelles are special since they give you the essence of Beethoven in short form.
> The opus 33 bagatelles are great counter pieces to the early/middle period sonatas, inventive and rewarding, and not too hard to play.
> But it's the two sets of late Bagatelles that should be studied by anyone who wants to understand late Beethoven. They're a perfect introduction to the trio of late sonatas, op. 109-111, since they cover the same sound world in a compressed form. The opus 126 were the last music that Beethoven wrote for the piano, even after the Diabelli Variations.


I think quite a lot of op 119 is music written at much the same sort of time as op 33.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> I think quite a lot of op 119 is music written at much the same sort of time as op 33.


That's right, nos. 1-5 were at least sketched in 1803, but 6-11 were composed in 1823 - and you can clearly see the difference. No other than Beethoven in his late period could have composed those.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

the b minor from op.126 could have been a scherzo-like movement in one of the last sonatas, at least one from op.33 could also have been a scherzo in an early sonata and there is one c minor presto from WoO that supposedly was in fact an abandoned scherzo, maybe originally planned for op.10/1 or op.13.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Kreisler jr said:


> the b minor from op.126 could have been a scherzo-like movement in one of the last sonatas,


This one seems the masterpiece of the set to me -- the physicality of The Rite of Spring. Kovacevich in his element with it

Beethoven: 6 Bagatelles, Op. 126 - 4. Presto - YouTube


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

There are plenty of similarities between the bagatelles and piano sonatas. For example, Bagatelle Op.33, No.7 and Piano Sonata Op.27, No.1, both written in 1800-1803, contain these two contrasting characters: repeated staccato bass chords with a strong rhythmic drive; and legato arpeggios. Also, the key, meter, form, melodic style and texture are very similar. As an example, the rhythmic character in both pieces is in A-flat major in a fast triple time.

Some of the late bagatelles use the new techniques and style of Beethoven’s late piano sonatas (Opp. 109, 110, 111). The technique of using progressive rhythmic diminution along with long sustained trills is found in both Bagatelle Op.119, No.7 (1822) and the sixth variation of the finale in the Piano Sonata, Op. 109 (1820).

Sketches for the C minor Piano Sonata Op.10, No.1 (1798) were together with the autograph score and sketches of the Presto in C minor Bagatelle WoO 52 (1797). This may mean that Beethoven intended to include WoO 52 as part of the Piano Sonata Op.10, No.1 (maybe as a scherzo and trio): The Sonata Op.10, No.1 may have been planned as a four-movement work at first, including a minuet or scherzo, but later, Beethoven would remove one movement.

From a pedagogical point of view, Beethoven’s bagatelles are appropriate repertoire to precede Beethoven’s more advanced sonatas. Op. 119, No. 7 demands technique that also appears in Beethoven’s Piano Sonata Opp. 109 and 111 in a compact form (e.g., sustained trills and other voices playing together with the same hand). Also, Beethoven gives detailed performance directions for articulation, ornaments, pedaling and tempo throughout his other sets of bagatelles.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Ever since I played the sonata Op. 90 in E minor, I have experienced that it is the Sonata Für Elise or Für Elise is the Bagatelle for the Sonata. Anyone see/hear what I mean?


In terms of figurations the bagatelle seems similar to the final movement of Op.31 No.2 in D minor "Tempest"


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I've heard them described as chips off the masters block ie using the analogy of a sculptor. They really do give you glimpses of the Sonatas and show the obvious differences between late and earlier Beethoven.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> In terms of figurations the bagatelle seems similar to the final movement of Op.31 No.2 in D minor "Tempest"


When it comes to the main piano texture, you are actually correct! 👍

But the first movement of Op. 90 is a piano sonata version of Für Elise! Think about even the chromatic ostinatos before the recapitulation. There are many places in both the bagatelle and the sonata where one could continue with the other piece or use it as a contrapuntal line. I hum these pieces on top of each other.

Only 4 years between the works! Für Elise at the time of the relationship, the sonata a profound reflection afterwards — I would say.

Gorgeous pieces both! And to have someone like Brendel to play them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> But the first movement of Op. 90 is a piano sonata version of Für Elise! Think about even the chromatic ostinatos before the recapitulation.


which section exactly?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> which section exactly?


Listen to from 2:35 onwards —> it leads to the recapitulation through a gesture similar to Für Elise. The right hand gesture is very similar to the diatonic scales and arpeggios in A minor in Für Elise before the final appearance of the main theme.

The ostinatos are not really chromatic in the sonata, though. Just pedal and two lines creating mild dissonance when three notes all play together.

But I cannot really put in words all the places where I can hum the pieces on top of each other.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> which section exactly?


Here is some of the texture before the recapitulation. It is even the same notes as in Für Elise.










And here, part of the ending of the main theme, the same nodding from e to d#.










I am sure it is pointing towards the mysterious Elise. Not just because of one interval but because also the whole piece SOUNDS and FEELS like enforced or transcended Für Elise.


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