# Have you ever asked yourself this question? If you were to write an opera?



## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

What would it be like?

I love Wagner. I truly do. I totally understand his concept of 'music-drama', with an uninterrupted flow of drama set to music. I agree that 'set pieces', in which the action of the drama seems to halt, to allow for the performer to show off her/his vocal talent is complete rubbish, unless it can be woven into the plot to make an explanation for the style of the piece at hand. I love you Wagner. But c'mon dude. WTF! Is a little melody to hard to ask for? Is a catchy song or jingle below you? Isn't it ok for a theater goer to be heard humming a tune on his way in or out of an opera? 

Why, it almost seems that what youve given the singers to sing is nothing more than a recitative, or (depending on your point of view; worse yet an improvised line (ala a jazz musician) imortalized only when you decided to write it down on the score, that you as composer at one point had the whole orchestral part completely written out, and knowing the chord progressions knew which possible notes would not clash with the sometimes melodic acompaniment, giving us a decidedly un-song-like song with rthmic pattern, saving for the obligatory long notes, very similar to human speech (aka recitative). 


Contrast this with Mozart. Mozart knew how to write a song. And thusly, mozart knew how to pack an opera house. 


What would your guys's idea be of an opera in which each act is set up as follows:
A couple of scenes of mozart styled arias & ensembles (yes even a few recitatives), and when you get to a particularly dramatic scene, or the climax of the act, have it be through-composed ala Wagner. 


Does anyone know if there are any operas out there that are already like this (or which ones come closest?

Finally if you were to write an opera, what artistic & stylistic deviations from previous trends do you think would make opera even better?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

I guess I would question your premises on two fronts.

One the one hand, are you saying that "set pieces" are necessarily undramatic, or that they are only about vocal showing off? If you are, I can't agree. I think the aria/recitative pattern, when handled well, can also be very dramatic, though it does adhere to a different--and to many people less familiar--set of codes (as our good friend schigolch has pointed out).

On the other hand, if you're saying that Wagner, because he doesn't churn out "catchy tunes", isn't musically effective, again I would disagree. I find much of Wagner's music, including the vocal lines, quite stirring and memorable, not to mention melodic--though not necessarily in the sense of providing me with a simple, catchy tune I can hum while leaving the theatre.

Other than that, I am in complete accord with everything you said.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

This fundational keystone of 20th century Opera, _Wozzeck_, is a number opera. 

It's funny, but when I hear a Wagner opera, almost always I hum some of the melodies while leaving the theater.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I agree with OP, even major motives in Wagner operas are never melodic and memorable, I mean look at this - what he sings sounds like timpani part from some work of Penderecki or Boulez to me:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

they all work, Nozze, Lucia, Tristan.
not sure about all recetitive though,life and conversations ebb and flow,peaks and valleys, boring and interesting, even Wagner has "scenes".


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Aramis said:


> I agree with OP, even major motives in Wagner operas are never melodic and memorable, I mean look at this - what he sings sounds like timpani part from some work of Penderecki or Boulez to me:


Interesting that you choose a moment where the melody is rushed and staccato (especially in this production) as part of the dramatic conflict. It's *intended* to be the hero's manic outburst, so of course it won't sound sweet or lyrical.

Contrast this with, say, Wolfram's "Abendlied" from the same opera, and it's clear that Wagner employs different modes for different situations.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

amfortas said:


> One the one hand, are you saying that "set pieces" are necessarily undramatic, or that they are only about vocal showing off? If you are, I can't agree. I think the aria/recitative pattern, when handled well,


No. But so many times they are. What is the point of a Da Cappa aria? What does it have to do with advancing of the plot? 
Rossini was known to write every last intricate embelleshment into many of his arias, because the singers were improvising cadenzas etc to the point of killing not only the aria but the opera.

And another point is that so often the recitatives aren't handled very well. I think Don Giovanni is much better than Mozart's other operas for example. In Don giovanni we are treated to minute and half to 2 minutes to 3 minute delight after delight, compare this to the famous 8 to 10 minutes 'Martern Aller Arten' takes from the abduction for example. Don giovanni handles these set pieces very nicely, and whereas Martern Aller Arten, while still a fabulous song, is a little long and I would imagine distracts from the pacing of the plot quite a bit. (I'm just trying to provide an example here...)



amfortas said:


> On the other hand, if you're saying that Wagner, because he doesn't churn out "catchy tunes", isn't musically effective, again I would disagree. I find much of Wagner's music, including the vocal lines, quite stirring and memorable, not to mention melodic--though not necessarily in the sense of providing me with a simple, catchy tune I can hum while leaving the theatre.


No, personally I think Wagner is very effective too, but how many out there in the 'pop' world would concur? Wagner is either hit or miss, even there are wagner fans who don't like motiff, every tune every piece of his works. And when the shortest one of your works is an hour or longer act from an opera, attention span starts to become an issue. Keeping the 'works' shorter, keeps more people interested especially when you may be a huge fan of his work but don't care too much to the music to a particular scene etc. you'd be able to appreciate it much more if, in my opinion, it was worked out in the format i described above.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Well, the point of Da Capo arias is basically vocal display. When the singer repeats the first part of the aria, which is not printed but simply marked Da Capo (go back to the beginning) , he or she is supposed to go to town with elaborate embellishment of the vocal line to wow the audience with his or her skill .
This is the exact opposite of the Wagnerian conception of opera, where the work is ]
through-composed (continuous rather than consisting of discrete arias and ensembles ) .
The vocal line is not for display of technique, but purely expressive in function .
I've never been abler to understand those who say that Wagner's music is lacking in melody. This is an accusation which has followed him from the very beginning when his works were new or relatively new in the 19th century. But this is like saying that 
chocolate cake lacks calories !


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I forgot to mention that some 18th century operas consist of so many monotonous da capo arias all in a row that when they're over I feel like da-capotating myself ! BORING !
Wagner is NOT boring despite the great length of his operas .


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

_Have you ever asked yourself this question? If you were to write an opera?_

Nope.

I guess the world is divided into composers who write operas (and don't have a massive oeuvre of (or any) symphonies, concertos, string quartets and all the rest) and everyone else.

If I had the time, resources and skills, I would write a cycle of symphonies.

To be honest, the only operas I like are those by composers whose non-operatic music I like (Strauss, Tippett [_The midsummer marriage_ is one of my favourite pieces of music, full stop], Stockhausen, and a few others). Even as a huge Berlioz devotee, I am not hugely enamoured of his operas.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

obwan said:


> What is the point of a Da Cappa aria? What does it have to do with advancing of the plot?





superhorn said:


> Well, the point of Da Capo arias is basically vocal display. When the singer repeats the first part of the aria, which is not printed but simply marked Da Capo (go back to the beginning) , he or she is supposed to go to town with elaborate embellishment of the vocal line to wow the audience with his or her skill .


I agree that the da capo aria has often been used as a vehicle for vocal display (as have plenty of arias in other formats). But I don't think that's its only justification.

Think of it as a journey. You start in one place, with a particular point of view. Then you travel somewhere else and have new experiences. Eventually you return home to familiar surroundings, but somehow it's not quite the same--the journey itself has given you a new perspective on the original situation.

That, roughly speaking, is the dramatic appeal of the da capo form. And really, it's not so hard to understand. Consider for a moment how much of a role repetition plays in popular songs (where each return of the chorus brings a slightly changed perception). You don't complain about repetition *there*, do you? So maybe it's possible to appreciate it in opera as well.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

This 'mantra' of the operatic continuum being part of a kind of predestined Opera evolution, is one of the first things one can learn when reading many opera essays. The idea is simple enough: an uninterrupted and homogeneous musical discourse can provide better drama, and this was discovered in the 19th century, in the Romantic period.

This is just a (romantic) myth. Number opera, from an structural point of view, is every bit as able (or as unable) to provide this 'quality' drama. How can anyone seriously doubt the wonderful theater in _L'Orfeo_?, the very first (in a sense) Opera staged.

Or in _Don Giovanni_, with the closed numbers separated by recitatives.

Or in the final scene of _Roberto Devereux_, using the _solita forma_ (recitative, cantabile, tempo di mezzo and cabaletta) in all its splendour.

Wagner's conception of Opera is great. But it's just that, one of the many possible ways to compose and stage Opera. Nothing more, nothing less. The great masters of continuum: Wagner himself, Strauss, Puccini,... did achieve to write wonderful pieces of Art using this structural device. But this doesn't mean the works of the past were less theatrical or second rate drama. They were just using a different set of codes to represent that drama. In the history of Opera there is no teleology, no lineal progression, it's just some codes replacing others, and coexisting with them.

And if we look into the 20th century, this is what we found. Many of the 20th century operas are written in continuum. But not all, for sure. We got wonderful number operas like _Wozzeck_ or _The Turn of the Screw_. They are number operas from a structural point of view, but also carefully crafted to incorporate the smooth flow of continuum.

Berg's intention was to reject the formal assumptions of "durchkomponieren", while at the same time presenting fluid drama, using a different musical form for each closed numner, and then just joining them together as a transition, as a coda, as an introduction,...

What we are witnessing, however, in the last decades is the complete breaking up of any accepted operatic form, any standard of structure. This stylistic freedom, a powerful force on its own, it has also a dark side. Each new opera requires structural thinking, in which creative energies are invested, while in the past, using the codes of each period, many of those energies could be devoted entirely to music and drama.

Then, we have good musical drama both in number opera and in continuum. And we have also indifferent musical drama in number opera and in continuum. Structural devices are fine, but you need to go along them (or past them) to provide this good musical drama, anyway.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

obwan said:


> I love Wagner. I truly do. I totally understand his concept of 'music-drama', with an uninterrupted flow of drama set to music. I agree that 'set pieces', in which the action of the drama seems to halt, to allow for the performer to show off her/his vocal talent is complete rubbish, unless it can be woven into the plot to make an explanation for the style of the piece at hand. I love you Wagner. But c'mon dude. WTF! Is a little melody to hard to ask for? Is a catchy song or jingle below you? Isn't it ok for a theater goer to be heard humming a tune on his way in or out of an opera?...Contrast this with Mozart. Mozart knew how to write a song. And thusly, mozart knew how to pack an opera house.


It oughn't surprise anyone that I comprehensively reject this premise.

To deal with the end-tag digression first, Wagner operas (at least those whose stagings are not transcendently bizarre) pack opera houses, too. Prices reflect this reality, as well. Internet-search the term "Wagnerian surcharge" and you'll find a few of my writings, in this and another place...

At the risk of making one of those lists that sometimes gets cited for scorn, I thought I'd list _Rienzi_ and the 10 Canonical Wagner operas, with a mention of some prominent, memorable melodies from each work-

_Rienzi_- Scene conclusion and ending melody of the Overture, the 'Allmach'ter Vater'
_Flying Dutchman_- Senta's ballad, the Sailors' chorus
_Lohengrin_- The first theme from the Prelude to Act III, the bridal chorus
_Tannhäuser_- Pilgrims' Chorus, _Dich, teure halle_, Wolfram's _Abendstern_
_Tristan und Isolde_- Brangäne's watch, the _Liebestod_
_Die Meistersinger_- Walther's trial song, the _Wahn_ monologue (especially the conclusion- feel like crying sometimes), Walther's prize song.
_Das Rheingold_- Alberich's curse, The entry of the gods into Valhalla
_Die Walküre_- _Wintersturme_, The ride of the Valkyries
_Siegfried_- Forging song, Forest Murmurs
_Götterdämmerung_- Hagen's watch, the summoning of the vassals, the immolation scene.
_Parsifal_- the Communion chorus, the Good Friday music...

and there is so (bleeping) much I'm leaving out! The 'Meistersinger' Quintet, The Dutchman's lament- Wotan's _Abschied_... but I only have so much time to devote to each post(!)

I believe that the assertion that Wagner had some reduced measure of melodic impact to be a statement that is utterly insupportable and bereft of foundation, when considered closely.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

I'm with Jeremy on this one...if I had the time and ability I would certainly not invest it in opera...a cycle of symphonic works and most certainly a giant list of works for solo keyboard would be generated far before an opera...one thing's for certain, if I had such a gift I would not be posting here; as fine a bunch folks you are.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> It oughn't surprise anyone that I comprehensively reject this premise.
> 
> To deal with the end-tag digression first, Wagner operas (at least those whose stagings are not transcendently bizarre) pack opera houses, too. Prices reflect this reality, as well. Internet-search the term "Wagnerian surcharge" and you'll find a few of my writings, in this and another place...
> 
> ...


I agree completely. I find the charge that Wagner lacks melody completely bizarre. Your list only scratches the surface. There is more melody in Die Meistersinger than in all of Mozart's operas combined.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I'd add the Funeral March to CTP's list.
And yes, I do leave Wagner operas humming melodies and leitmotivs.


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## obwan (Oct 24, 2011)

Is there some sort of conspiricy against me going on here or something, in an attempt to discredit everything I say and make me look like a fool? Well it seems like youve all been hoisted in your own pitard with this one:


> There is more melody in Die Meistersinger than in all of Mozart's operas combined.


With that, even a kindergartener will be able to tell you are full of sh|t.

And fyi: I was writing from a computer lab to which I only had 30 minutes access to, and didn't have time to revise my post. I had assumed that most people on here seem to be very educated and civilized that they would correctly interpret such statements as ''melodic' acompaniment' to be infering a less then superlative nature to my statements regarding my otherwise described-as-beloved Wagner.

Seriously, are you all getting off on this or something?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Is there some sort of conspiricy against me going on here or something, in an attempt to discredit everything I say and make me look like a fool?


No.

...Yes!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

obwan said:


> Is there some sort of conspiricy against me going on here or something, in an attempt to discredit everything I say and make me look like a fool? Well it seems like youve all been hoisted in your own pitard with this one:


No. We just disagree with what you are saying.

And CTP: I'd add David's 1st act monologue and Beckmesser's Serenade to that list.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

obwan said:


> With that, even a kindergartener will be able to tell you are full of sh|t.


That's actually a quote from a 19th century critic, Wilhelm Tappert. I don't know if you've ever seen Meistersinger but it's about a songwriting contest and contains a number of highly melodic songs...


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I think the Overture of DON GIOVANNI +first 4 (?) scenes (i.e. through the murder of The Commendatore and the vows of vengeance by Donna Anna and her fiancé Don Whatever) is both Mozartian and Wagnerian. Mozart withholds any room for applause until the duet is over and the overture, unlike his others (I think) has themes that are brought back in the last act. It is such a pinnacle of stagecraft and beautiful, chromatic music largely in d minor, that it seems and I think IS 'all of a piece' and qualifies as 'music drama'. Don G is one helluva opera, but then you all know that. 



obwan said:


> What would it be like?
> 
> I love Wagner. I truly do. I totally understand his concept of 'music-drama', with an uninterrupted flow of drama set to music. I agree that 'set pieces', in which the action of the drama seems to halt, to allow for the performer to show off her/his vocal talent is complete rubbish, unless it can be woven into the plot to make an explanation for the style of the piece at hand. I love you Wagner. But c'mon dude. WTF! Is a little melody to hard to ask for? Is a catchy song or jingle below you? Isn't it ok for a theater goer to be heard humming a tune on his way in or out of an opera?
> 
> ...


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## AnaMendoza (Jul 29, 2011)

Couchie said:


> That's actually a quote from a 19th century critic, Wilhelm Tappert. I don't know if you've ever seen Meistersinger but it's about a songwriting contest and contains a number of highly melodic songs...


Although Beckmesser found the melody and words of one of them very hard to remember.


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