# Where do I go from here with Brahms?



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I've recently got into Brahms. I've been listening to the glorious Mutter/Karajan violin concerto, and have the complete symphonies too. I was wondering where would be the best place to go from here. Any reccomendations? I hear the clarinet concerto is good...?
:tiphat:


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Piano Concertos would be the most natural evolution


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Piano Concertos would be the most natural evolution


2nd is a popular one, I hear?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Tallisman said:


> I hear the clarinet concerto is good...?
> :tiphat:


He did not write one (Berio constructed one from a Brahms clarinet sonata).

Brahms did write some of the most beautiful chamber music of all time (imo), start with the clarinet quintet, the string quintets and the string sextets.

Another must hear is his Deutsches Requiem.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Brahms is one of my favourite composers! Love most of his works. Possibly his 4th symphony to start with. What I listened to when started out with him! Do love Double Concerto too! His life story interesting too!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Brahms - Piano Quintet & String Quartet No. 1/Akiko Yamamoto (piano)Quatuor Ebène.
Very fine start.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Pugg said:


> Brahms - Piano Quintet & String Quartet No. 1/Akiko Yamamoto (piano)Quatuor Ebène.
> Very fine start.


It's always interesting to see how tastes differ. For me his piano quintet and three string quartets are the least interesting in his chamber music oeuvre.

Also, from personal experience, I found the double concerto a tough nut to crack. I like it now, but it took a lot more listens than the three more famous concertos (which I still prefer over the double concerto by a very wide margin).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

^

I started with the concertos / symphonies and gone towards the chambers music later.
Now I am hooked on the one I mentioned.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> 2nd is a popular one, I hear?


Yes, it's practically a symphony. The first is amazing too. The best set is probably Freire/Chailly.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

One of the nice things about Brahms was that he was his own toughest critic. He refused to publish (and before his death destroyed) any number of compositions. As a consequence, he only published 24 works of chamber music. I consider them one of the most remarkable bodies of work in all of classical music - the pieces range from highly satisfying to spectacular. 

Near the end of his life Brahms became enamored with the clarinet playing of Richard Muhlfeld, and "came out of retirement" to write 4 chamber works for clarinet, plus some marvelous works for piano and a few other pieces. They are among my favorite Brahms compositions.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

jegreenwood said:


> One of the nice things about Brahms was that he was his own toughest critic. He refused to publish (and before his death destroyed) any number of compositions. As a consequence, he only published 24 works of chamber music. I consider them one of the most remarkable bodies of work in all of classical music - the pieces range from highly satisfying to spectacular.


Yes, he had high standards and did not, to the best of my knowledge, compose _anything_ that is outright bad. The very worst of his works are, as you note, still highly satisfying.


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

The first ten pieces you should listen to by Brahms (according to me):

1. Werther Quartet

2. Variations on a Theme of Paganini

3. Piano Trio No. 3

4. Piano Quartet No. 2

5. Symphony No. 2

6. Alto Rhapsody

7. Hungarian Dances

8. Five Songs, Op. 105

9. Clarinet Trio

10. Variations on a Theme of Haydn

Just my suggestions.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> 2nd is a popular one, I hear?


You definitely want to listen to both. In several senses they are works by two different composers, and offer different yet equal rewards.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> I've recently got into Brahms. I've been listening to the glorious Mutter/Karajan violin concerto, and have the complete symphonies too. I was wondering where would be the best place to go from here. Any reccomendations? I hear the clarinet concerto is good...?
> :tiphat:


Brahms never wrote a clarinet concerto but he did write two fine clarinet sonatas and a clarinet quintet, but they are a bit more introverted than the Violin Concerto.

How about the Piano Trio No. 1 or the two Orchestral Serenades?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Loving the lieder (songs) collection.


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## Ralphus (Nov 13, 2016)

I think Brahms' chamber music as a body of work is one of the great treasures we classical music lovers have!

For me, the Clarinet Quintet (Leister, Shifrin are good), the 1st Violin Sonata, the 2nd Cello Sonata, the 2 Clarinet Sonatas (I like the viola versions too), the Piano Quintet, the 2nd String Quintet are my absolute favorites.

But, as someone mentioned, there is no dud among his chamber works. I also agree that the string quartets are among his less interesting chamber works.

If you're interested, DG offer pretty good value for many box sets that cover A LOT of Brahms repertoire: Complete Piano Works, Complete Chamber Music, Complete Choral Works.





















Experts in piano and choral repertoire may comment on the quality of the above sets, but the chamber set contains solid to excellent performances (Dumay Violin Sonatas, Rostropovich Cello Sonatas, Hagen String Quintets, Shifrin Clarinet Quintet, are all very good). Incidentally, the piano set also contains the complete organ works (not an insignificant thing!). Unfortunately, the chamber set does not include the Viola Sonatas. (I have Kashkashian on ECM and Monkemeyer on Sony. I like both.)


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

The G minor piano quartet is marvelous and also the trio for horn, violin, and piano.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

The Violin Concerto, as performed by Jascha Heifetz/Fritz Reiner
Piano Trio No. 1
Ein Deutsches Requiem
The 21 Hungarian Dances for piano four-hand
The Violin Sonatas
The String Sextets


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)




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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Heifetz performances of the Brahms Violin Concerto under Reiner and also from a live Carnegie Hall concert under Toscanini are both too fast and I find his playing by "rote" and "superficial"....on "cruise control"....and much too fast.

For me the gold standard for the Brahms Violin Concerto is the recording by Rachel Barton Pine with terrific support by the Chicago Symphony under Carlos Kalmar. Real sincere PASSION here!!!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

When you eventually have a foot in the grave, Vier Ernste Gesangen will help you take the next step. : -)


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Some of Brahms solo piano works are sublime. The Intermezzo op118#2 has (IMO) a strong Schumann influence.






Edit: Brahmsianhorn somewhat beat me to it above with the excellent suggestion of the Radu Lupu Klavierstucke which includes the Intermezzi. Radu Lupu was known for these works. Op118#2 is probably the most popular.

Edit#2: I just noticed that Brahmsianhorn beat me by 3 months. Caught by the thread resurrection syndrome...again.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

One of the first pieces by Brahms that I heard (aside from the symphonies, which completely overwhelmed me) was the Serenade in D, his first Serenade for Orchestra and a piece Brahms wrote prior to writing a symphony. A charming work, I still revisit it on occasion, and it never fails to delight.






Oddly, I never became quite a fan of the Second Serenade. Perhaps I should give that one another chance. After all, it's by Brahms, too!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Don't forget the two Serenades for orchestra...wonderful works, quasi-symphonic, but in a slightly lighter vein...both serenades are delightful.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

The clarinet quintet :angel:


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> One of the first pieces by Brahms that I heard (aside from the symphonies, which completely overwhelmed me) was the Serenade in D, his first Serenade for Orchestra and a piece Brahms wrote prior to writing a symphony. A charming work, I still revisit it on occasion, and it never fails to delight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So nice to see another friend of Brahms serenade! I've always propagated the gospel of Brahms serenade's but people seem to think they are for some reason light weight or something.

Serenade #2 is even better than the first, I think.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I would recommend jump right into his piano works. Here is a must have *Brahms: Ballades, Rhapsodies & Intermezzi* by Glenn Gould. Gould doing Brahms? Sound like a terrible mismatch at first. But no; it is widely considered one of his best discs, and he himself was very pleased with it. I have never heard the 4 Ballades Op.10 performed with such rhythmic accuracy while still intimately provoked the somber, dreamy moods. The 10 Intermezzi selected from Op. 76, 116, 117, 118, 119 are IMO unsurpassed. Not only he could demonstrate the genius of Brahms in contrapuntal writings, he is at his romantic best in these miniatures.






Since you mentioned the clarinet, you should check out the Clarinet Trio Op. 114 and Clarinet Quintet Op. 115. The Quintet is easier to love at first hearing since it is endowed with endless mellifluous, autumnal melodies. However, just try to be more patient with the trio (which I would vote Brahms' greatest chamber work), where the emotions are more subtle and fleeting.






3 piano quartets are all superb, probably the best of the genre. No.1 was a big hit in his days. No.2, my personal favorite, is a very relaxing, pastoral work. No.3 ("Werther") is hair-raising intense and rich in allusion to his tumultuous feelings for Clara.






From the vocal side, you can't really go wrong with most of the recommended recordings of Eine Deutsche Requiem. However, I prefer the *Schicksalslied *("Song of Destiny"), a midget version of the Requiem -- more distilled and sincere. A critic referred to it: _"Had Brahms never written anything but this one work, it would alone have sufficed to rank him with the best masters."_





.

--Well actually, I think minus his weakest spot- - the 3 string quartets (they are still great though), you can never go wrong with Brahms.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

silentio said:


> I would recommend jump right into his piano works. Here is a must have *Brahms: Ballades, Rhapsodies & Intermezzi* by Glenn Gould. Gould doing Brahms? Sound like a terrible mismatch at first. But no; it is widely considered one of his best discs, and he himself was very pleased with it. I have never heard the 4 Ballades Op.10 performed with such rhythmic accuracy while still intimately provoked the somber, dreamy moods. The 10 Intermezzi selected from Op. 76, 116, 117, 118, 119 are IMO unsurpassed. Not only he could demonstrate the genius of Brahms in contrapuntal writings, he is at his romantic best in these miniatures.
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...


Agree on the Gould - and I am not overall a particularly strong Gould proponent. I note that I only have one disc that contains Op. 10 and Op. 79. I need to seek out the rest.

As for the clarinet trio, Brahms claims to have preferred it to the quintet.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> I've recently got into Brahms. I've been listening to the glorious Mutter/Karajan violin concerto, and have the complete symphonies too. I was wondering where would be the best place to go from here. Any reccomendations? I hear the clarinet concerto is good...?
> :tiphat:


He never wrote a clarinet concerto, though I sure wish that he did.

I would listen to the first piano trio, the piano quintet, the second string sextet, the two clarinet sonatas and the clarinet quintet.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Thanks, everyone... I think I've got most of the Brahms I need since I posted the OP 3 months ago :lol:


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

The Double Concerto

Joshua Bell
Steven Isserlis
ASMF

The Concerto was written as a piece offering to Joseph Joachim after a fallout between Brahms and Joachim about the latters wife.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> Thanks, everyone... I think I've got most of the Brahms I need since I posted the OP 3 months ago :lol:


Keeps you off the streets for a while.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> Thanks, everyone... I think I've got most of the Brahms I need since I posted the OP 3 months ago :lol:


Just one more, the first Violin Sonata in G. A terrific work...if you haven't yet heard it. :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Brahm's German Requiem is my favorite Brahm's work.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

AfterHours said:


> Yes, it's practically a symphony. The first is amazing too. The best set is probably Freire/Chailly.


An absolute MUST for both his Piano Concertos (Esp #2) is Fleisher/Szell. I submit there is no finer recording of these pieces, and there are many fine recordings of them.

V


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Varick said:


> An absolute MUST for both his Piano Concertos (Esp #2) is Fleisher/Szell. I submit there is no finer recording of these pieces, and there are many fine recordings of them.
> 
> V


Excellent set as well, and it used to be my favorite overall. Though, after several listens, I no longer think the Freire/Chailly has any competition. It certainly has the best 1st (imo), and probably the best 2nd too, though I always have a soft spot for Richter/Leinsdorf as well.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Excellent set as well, and it used to be my favorite overall. Though, after several listens, I no longer think the Freire/Chailly has any competition. It certainly has the best 1st (imo), and probably the best 2nd too, though I always have a soft spot for Richter/Leinsdorf as well.


Check out this period instrument recording:


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Improbus said:


> Check out this period instrument recording:


Wow, haven't listened to this one. I haven't heard the whole thing yet, but I am impressed!


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Wow, haven't listened to this one. I haven't heard the whole thing yet, but I am impressed!


Unfortunately there is to my knowledge no such recording of the second and perhaps superior piano concerto, but I do like this one. For whatever reason I find period instrument performances of Brahms' works more agreeable than those of others, whether it's simply due to my tastes or something inherent to the music.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Improbus said:


> Unfortunately there is to my knowledge no such recording of the second and perhaps superior piano concerto, but I do like this one. For whatever reason I find period instrument performances of Brahms' works more agreeable than those of others, whether it's simply due to my tastes or something inherent to the music.


Yes, this one works quite well. Have you tried the Freire/Chailly set? To me, it's unbeatable, period or modern.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Yes, this one works quite well. Have you tried the Freire/Chailly set? To me, it's unbeatable, period or modern.


No, but I will.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

AfterHours said:


> Excellent set as well, and it used to be my favorite overall. Though, after several listens, I no longer think the Freire/Chailly has any competition. It certainly has the best 1st (imo), and probably the best 2nd too, though I always have a soft spot for Richter/Leinsdorf as well.


For some terrific playing both pianistically and orchestrally try Gilels with Reiner and the Chicago Symphony. It's been around for quite some time, but to my ears, it still occupies a position among the elite of performances of the Brahms PC #2.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Improbus said:


> Check out this period instrument recording:


The opening of this is nicely craggy, but the strings starting at 1:00 sound puny and wiry, and the phrasing of the melody is just awful all the way to 2:40. Perhaps the idea is to sound distant and mysterious, but to me it just sounds sickly and tentative. This sort of oddness happens too often when period ensembles try Romantic music. Is it just a desire to be different, or is it misguided academicism?

EDIT: A third possibility: period ensembles are led by conductors who failed the Philharmonic auditions.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The opening of this is nicely craggy, but the strings starting at 1:00 sound puny and wiry, and the phrasing of the melody is just awful all the way to 2:40. Perhaps the idea is to sound distant and mysterious, but to me it just sounds sickly and tentative. This sort of oddness happens too often when period ensembles try Romantic music. *Is it just a desire to be different, or is it misguided academicism?*


Yes.

Case in point of why I'm not a HIPster. Some do the hybrid HIP/Modern thing well such as Trevor Pinnock, but overall the entire HIP movement is for the birds. It's called technology and evolution and if the old masters had thought of larger orchestras, and could even conceive of what modern orchestration is today, they would have jumped all over it.

V


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

HIP in romantic-era music? Sometimes yes. For instance, the Gardiner/ORR set of the Schumann symphonies. Marvelously unthickens them! The opposite of corn starch.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Haydn67 said:


> For some terrific playing both pianistically and orchestrally try Gilels with Reiner and the Chicago Symphony. It's been around for quite some time, but to my ears, it still occupies a position among the elite of performances of the Brahms PC #2.


I agree. That one is up there on my shortlist for the PC #2 -- probably just behind Friere/Chailly and Richter/Leinsdorf for me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Speaking of Chailly, I really enjoy his set of the Brahms symphonies.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> The opening of this is nicely craggy, but the strings starting at 1:00 sound puny and wiry, and the phrasing of the melody is just awful all the way to 2:40. Perhaps the idea is to sound distant and mysterious, but to me it just sounds sickly and tentative. This sort of oddness happens too often when period ensembles try Romantic music. Is it just a desire to be different, or is it misguided academicism?
> 
> EDIT: A third possibility: period ensembles are led by conductors who failed the Philharmonic auditions.


I thought it was pretty impressive for HIP Brahms (which, for the most part, has a poor track record), but I would agree that it isn't close to Freire/Chailly, Szell, Fleisher/Szell or Grimaud/Gielen (Live: 



) and several other great modern instrument renditions.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> The opening of this is nicely craggy, but the strings starting at 1:00 sound puny and wiry, and the phrasing of the melody is just awful all the way to 2:40. Perhaps the idea is to sound distant and mysterious, but to me it just sounds sickly and tentative. This sort of oddness happens too often when period ensembles try Romantic music. Is it just a desire to be different, or is it misguided academicism?
> 
> EDIT: A third possibility: period ensembles are led by conductors who failed the Philharmonic auditions.


I hear nothing wrong with the phrasing personally. As for "puny" and "wiry" I think that's a more or less inevitable effect of gutstrings and something one might need to simply accomodate to and learn to appreciate.

You might like to hear these recordings of Brahms' second symphony with Norrington and Gardiner, respected scholars who know what they're dong:











I think the brighter and leaner sound of the instruments greatly benefit this work in particular.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Varick said:


> Yes.
> 
> Case in point of why I'm not a HIPster. Some do the hybrid HIP/Modern thing well such as Trevor Pinnock, but overall the entire HIP movement is for the birds. It's called technology and evolution and if the old masters had thought of larger orchestras, and could even conceive of what modern orchestration is today, they would have jumped all over it.
> 
> V


Not Brahms though, who was known for his preference for smaller orchestras and more conservative orchestration in general.



KenOC said:


> HIP in romantic-era music? Sometimes yes. For instance, the Gardiner/ORR set of the Schumann symphonies. Marvelously unthickens them! The opposite of corn starch.


I think the same is very much the case with Brahms.


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