# Beethoven and opera



## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Friends of mine,

First of all, mind yourselves that i've had some drinks but i'm trying to write english. Any mistake, please, i'm sorry.

Second, i'm here listening to Beethoven's 3rd as loud as i can in this little city of mine, where i have to work. After the 1st mvt and now going through the 2nd, i have to question how come Beethoven could write an opera of his own!!!!!!!!! Fidelio doesn't get to the footsteps of his 3rd! Yes, there's some difficult skills to sing and all and the libretto is great. But me, as being an Opera fan, i'd be listenning his 3rd, his Missa Solemnis and, most of all, his 9th, and all of them have what Fidelio lacks!

I'm not saying that Fidelio isn't good. If i could i'd see every Fidelio production. Verdi said that no one could surpass the 1st mvt of the 9th. I have to agree with him. So...how could this Man write a hymn to Mankind but lacks to exhibit it in an Opera?

And i could extend this thought to Bach!

And i'm returning to my pleasures


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven's relative weakness in vocal music was noted as early as 1810, by ETA Hoffman: "He is therefore a purely romantic composer. Might this not explain why his vocal music is less successful, since it does not permit a mood of vague yearning but can only depict from the realm of the infinite those feelings capable of being described in words?"


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Beethoven is nearly infamous as _the_ non-melodic composer; not a melodist, either for lack of interest or lack of any real gift in that quarter.

In his music in general there is much drama, melodrama, and spectacularly planned musical events which still startle now, and still work their effect even upon a repeat listening -- yet Beethoven seemed to lack any real sense of what was dramatic, and what worked dramatically, when it came to works for stage in the theater as theater. (Hey, no one 'gets' everything.)


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

For his first opera, Fidelio is a far greater opera than Verdi's, Mozart's, and Wagner's first efforts. It took the latter three a few "write-offs" to discover what really worked dramatically, too.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Anyway, Leonore #3 makes up for all the rest.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Couchie said:


> For his first opera, Fidelio is a far greater opera than Verdi's, Mozart's, and Wagner's first efforts. It took the latter three a few "write-offs" to discover what really worked dramatically, too.


on the flip side, it took him about 20 times longer than it took the others to write their first opera  it's pretty, nonetheless.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I confess, Fidelio is one of my most-loved operas, the timeless theme and humanity of it, and of course some beautiful music. It touches me like few others. I sure wish Beethoven had written more operas.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Alexander said:


> I confess, Fidelio is one of my most-loved operas, the timeless theme and humanity of it, and of course some beautiful music. It touches me like few others. I sure wish Beethoven had written more operas.


It might have been better if Luigi had had the medium of radio -- the work, staged, is "without inherent drama," so it falls flat on its face, a theatrical fail. As a cantata or radio opera, it 'works' better. Some of the more 'unnatural' vocal writing in all the repertoire comes from Beethoven


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'll take Ludwig's "weak" opera over everything else any day of the week.
(There's a reason for that avatar . . . )


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Beethoven is nearly infamous as _the_ non-melodic composer; not a melodist, either for lack of interest or lack of any real gift in that quarter.
> 
> .)


Sorry but are we talking about the same Beethoven??


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Whatever it's weaknesses, the fact is Fidelio moves me more than any other Opera.

As Klemperer said, it is completely unique. Written by a towering genius who, even when not on his home turf, could usually beat the competition!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I often hear people talk about Beethoven's lack of dramatic flair, like it's a given. Could someone explain to me exactly why Fidelio is so lacking in drama, because I don't get this.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I often hear people talk about Beethoven's lack of dramatic flair, like it's a given. Could someone explain to me exactly why Fidelio is so lacking in drama, because I don't get this.


Agreed. I find it to be a very moving and compelling opera.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Sorry but are we talking about the same Beethoven??


is there another?


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Listen to Fidelio is perfectly fine as the music itself but I think the action on stage itself is rather static.
Wagner is slow but not quite so static.
I think that Fidelio would be just as effective to hear it in a concert performance without any staging. Now, not all operas can do that as successfully. But this is may be why Fidelio is not quite as successful in an opera house.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> is there another?


sure there is:


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Beethoven won't be remembered for Fidelio.
However Fidelio will be remembered because of Beethoven.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Couchie said:


> For his first opera, Fidelio is a far greater opera than Verdi's, Mozart's, and Wagner's first efforts. It took the latter three a few "write-offs" to discover what really worked dramatically, too.


Mozart was 12 when he composed his first opera. I imagine Fidelio might have been a little better, but had Mozart taken as long with his first, he'd have been 26 when he finished it and comparisons by that stage would have been pointless...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

deggial said:


> sure there is:
> 
> View attachment 20881


Oh please, you can not be confusing that with the non-melodist composer? 
Of course, that dog could not carry a tune in a bucket, which is why they named it "Beethoven."


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Oh please, you can not be confusing that with the *non-melodist* composer?


you mean all the barking?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I remember being in tears while watching the Prisoners' chorus.

Then when Leonore unlocks her husband's chains. 

Fidelio shouldn't work but it does because of sheer genius.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

It's okay, I like some of the ensemble music and the overture; but I remember the rest seeming kind of dull.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There is a review of the first version of "Fidelio," an 1805 performance, about a third of the way down this page:

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/

An excerpt: "He who has followed the path of the development of Beethoven's otherwise undoubted talent with interest and calm objectivity had to hope for something quite different of this work than what was presented. Beethoven has often sacrificed the beautiful for the sake of the new and peculiar. Therefore, one should above all have expected peculiarity, novelty and a certain originality in this, his first theatrical product. But precisely these qualities are what are found the least." I suspect many would agree with this.

From 1806: "...Beethoven has brought his opera Fidelio back to the stage with many changes and cuts. An entire act was lost in the process, but the work has gained by it and has also been better received."

It was cut more severely and tightened up even further for the final 1814 version that we usually hear today.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Well, i'm back sober!

The prisoners chorus is wonderfull, no doubt. It shows Beethoven's love for Mankind. And Florestan pray is a good acomplishment, not only because the vocal part is superb and undoubtly very difficult to sing, but it mirrors the darkness where he's sunk to. But as for the rest of the opera, like it was said, already, Fidelio is best remembered for being Beethoven's opera.

One could say there's lack of dramatic impact, like the quartet for example. However, i think one could say the same thing about Meistersinger's quintet, but i prefer this quintet. And none of these surpass Rigoletto's quartet (in fact, in my humble opinion, i think this quartet reveals the great genius of Verdi).

Beethoven's overtures are great, but the rest...well, i don't know.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Well, i'm back sober!
> 
> The prisoners chorus is wonderfull, no doubt. It shows Beethoven's love for Mankind. And Florestan pray is a good acomplishment, not only because the vocal part is superb and undoubtly very difficult to sing, but it mirrors the darkness where he's sunk to. But as for the rest of the opera, like it was said, already, Fidelio is best remembered for being Beethoven's opera.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but are you talking about Beethoven's Fidelio? Lack of dramatic impact? The dungeon scene, etc.? The final scene?

Okay, there are some not-so-inspired bits - but the same can be said of most operas outside Mozart's greatest. Or Falstaff.

But at its best, Fidelio matches anything ever written.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven has often sacrificed the beautiful for the sake of the new and peculiar. Therefore, one should above all have expected peculiarity, novelty and a certain originality in this, his first theatrical product. But precisely these qualities are what are found the least." I suspect many would agree with this.


I thought it was _of its time_. The good news is I like the music of _its time_. I expected something more... explosive?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

KenOC said:


> There is a review of the first version of "Fidelio," an 1805 performance, about a third of the way down this page:
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/
> 
> ...


And I love them all! Certainly, the 1814 final version is an improvement on the previous ones musically and dramaturgically. But there is some incredibly beautiful music Beethoven cut when making revisions. The Urfassung of "_O Gott, welch' ein __Augenblick_" is just gorgeous.

When asked that old question about the desert island and recordings of which composer's operas we'd take along, I always chose Beethoven. He may have only written one opera, but it's the one I absolutely can't do without!


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Sorry, but are you talking about Beethoven's Fidelio? Lack of dramatic impact? The dungeon scene, etc.? The final scene?
> 
> Okay, there are some not-so-inspired bits - but the same can be said of most operas outside Mozart's greatest. Or Falstaff.
> 
> But at its best, Fidelio matches anything ever written.


Yes, i'm talking about that same Fidelio. It does not mean that i do not like it (yesterday i listened Bernstein's version with Janowitz)

Fidelio is wonderfull musically...but does not match, for example, Glück's Iphigénie en Tauride in Opera realms


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## Downbeat (Jul 10, 2013)

One of Beethoven's assets was that he was very human...not a natural at handlng various instruments/voices, except the piano. He overcame this through hard work and found his own formulas (take his symphonies...I would not call them 'elegant' in any way, but highly effective after labouring over how best to organize instrumentation). This extends to opera...perhaps the least natural musical form for him of all...despite his obvious love for the medium.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Yes, i'm talking about that same Fidelio. It does not mean that i do not like it (yesterday i listened Bernstein's version with Janowitz)
> 
> Fidelio is wonderfull musically...but does not match, for example, Glück's Iphigénie en Tauride in Opera realms


Cannot judge - I don't know the Gluck. In fact I'd never heard of it.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ very dramatic stuff:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

agreed, if you have a chance to see Iphigenie en Tauride you definitely should. It can be an amazing experience.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

dionisio said:


> Yes, i'm talking about that same Fidelio. It does not mean that i do not like it (yesterday i listened Bernstein's version with Janowitz)
> 
> Fidelio is wonderfull musically...but does not match, for example, Glück's Iphigénie en Tauride in Opera realms


All of this really comes down to a matter of personal taste. For you, _Fidelio_ doesn't match up to some other operas. For me, it blows _Iphigenie_ and everything else out of the water. Neither one of us is "right" or "wrong." It's like people debating which food tastes better.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I think great opera composers are absorbed by musical theatre. A lot of them didn't write much other than for the stage. I never got the impression that theatre was Beethoven's thing. It doesn't seem like a compulsion to him, a driving desire, like it was for others. It seems more like a box to be ticked and moved on from (slowly)...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kieran said:


> I think great opera composers are absorbed by musical theatre. A lot of them didn't write much other than for the stage. I never got the impression that theatre was Beethoven's thing. It doesn't seem like a compulsion to him, a driving desire, like it was for others. It seems more like a box to be ticked and moved on from (slowly)...


Beethoven may also have had a bit of the "top dog" syndrome. Opera was considered a very important musical genre in Vienna and had been for quite a few years. Opera was also where the money was at, and that alone would have been enough to interest Beethoven. Finally, Beethoven seemed jealous of the popular success of opera composers like Rossini, leaving us several recorded remarks on that subject.

So I think he was doing a bit more than just "ticking a box," although it's true that his gifts seemed best suited for other musical genres.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Beethoven said that Fidelio was the most dearly loved of his children. Because he had spent more time and effort on her. And she had cost him more dearly than any other work.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

For myself, the only Beethoven I listen to is Fidelio. When I think back to how I used to listen to popular pieces of his, like the Moonlight Sonata, or the 5th symphony, I just kind of shudder. All that seems so juvenile to me now. Fidelio is great - maybe not great through and through, but great nonetheless.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> For myself, the only Beethoven I listen to is Fidelio. When I think back to how I used to listen to popular pieces of his, like the Moonlight Sonata, or the 5th symphony, I just kind of shudder. All that seems so juvenile to me now. Fidelio is great - maybe not great through and through, but great nonetheless.


Fifth symphony juvenile? The last movement of the moonlight? You are joking of course!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Alexander said:


> I confess, Fidelio is one of my most-loved operas, the timeless theme and humanity of it, and of course some beautiful music. It touches me like few others. I sure wish Beethoven had written more operas.


Well, yes and no. I like that Beethoven only wrote one opera because I have only so much time and that time is not enough to get into Fidelio as much as I would like to. Besides two CDs of Fidelio, I just ordered the Bernstein DVD, a CD of an early version when it was titled Leonore, and a CD of it done in English which will help me get more familair with the story and better associate it with the music when I listen to it in German.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I think Fidelio is amazing. It took a long time to feel that way. I love Beethoven's symphonies and concertos. I think the 2nd movement of the 5th Piano Concerto is the single most beautiful piece of music ever written. Fidelio moves me as much as anything else he's written. 

Where are you? Your English is great.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pre-Leonore/Fidelio Beethoven opera attempt:








> Vestas Feuer ("The Vestal Flame") is a fragment of an opera composed in 1803 by Ludwig van Beethoven to a German libretto by Emanuel Schikaneder. The plot involves a romantic intrigue in which the heroine temporarily becomes a Vestal Virgin (a keeper of the Vestal Flame in Ancient Rome.) Beethoven set to music only the first scene of Schikaneder's libretto, then abandoned the project. The fragment (about ten minutes of music) is rarely performed.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestas_Feuer


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SixFootScowl said:


> Pre-Leonore/Fidelio Beethoven opera attempt:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never heard of that, but from the selection you give it sounds like quality music. Thanks!

In his late 30s Beethoven started another opera, Macbeth. He seems not to have gotten very far on this one either. Some speculate that his music for the Witch's Scene was used in the slow movement of the Ghost Trio.


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