# What is the greatest transition between movements?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Which is obviously the one in Beethoven's 5th symphony but what is the 2nd best? 
I thought about this while listening to the segue from Back in the USSR to Dear Prudence. Schumann wrote one in his 4th symphony 3rd to 4th movement that works well.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven's transition from the rest of the symphony into the final movement of the Choral is unusual, to say the least. But it strikes me as being a bit "literary" and maybe a bit less musically impressive for that reason.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I love the transition from 2nd to 3rd movement in Beethoven's 5th piano concerto. He thinks of a thematic fragment, noodles thoughtfully a couple of times, then decides "Yes, that's the one" and Wham!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

the Schumann #4 transition between mvt 3 and 4 is wonderful. I also like the transition in Vaughan-Williams #4....in the last mvt, first section into the final section, very powerful. Beethoven #5 is tough to beat, tho, for sure.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Since I first heard the first recording (Ormandy/Philly) of the Cooke version of Mahler's 10th, I wondered if the drumbeats that ended the 4th and began the 5th movements were actually intended by Mahler to eventually be a segue/transition. The Mazetti II version actually tries this -- and it works.

Beethoven seemed to have a thing at one point about trying out transitions (4th and 5th piano concertos, fifth symphony, Op. 131 quartet). His Grosse Fuge is one long transition. So is Liszt's Sonata in b minor. Many 20th c. ballets have transitions all over the place (Romeo and Juliet, Firebird/Petrushka/Pulchinella, Appalachian Spring, Miraculous Mandarin). The transition to the last movement of Janacek's Sinfonietta is really good. 

It's not a transition per se, but the dislocation between the end of the Andante and the beginning of the Finale of Mahler's 6th (when you play the Andante third) is extraordinarily effective. Similarly between the Andante and Finale of the 4th.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

I like how Dvorak's 9th symphony flows from the 3rd movement to the 4th.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Beethoven seemed to have a thing at one point about trying out transitions (4th and 5th piano concertos, fifth symphony, Op. 131 quartet). *His Grosse Fuge is one long transition. So is Liszt's Sonata in b minor.* Many 20th c. ballets have transitions all over the place (Romeo and Juliet, Firebird/Petrushka/Pulchinella, Appalachian Spring, Miraculous Mandarin).


How are you defining "transition"?


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## David C Coleman (Nov 23, 2007)

Saint-saens organ symphony 1-2 and then 3-4, Beethoven 5 (3-4) is probably the best known example. Schumann 4, I think he had Beethoven in mind here. But the resulting finale theme is a little anti-climactic.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> the Schumann #4 transition between mvt 3 and 4 is wonderful. I also like the transition in Vaughan-Williams #4....in the last mvt, first section into the final section, very powerful. Beethoven #5 is tough to beat, tho, for sure.


Just been listening to the Schumann 4th symphony (ASMF) and tell what you mean about beautiful transitions.

Never crossed my mind before but will listen out for more!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't know about greatest, but the transition between the cappricco-adagio (2nd mvt) and the menuet (3rd mvt) of Haydn's op.20 no.2 string quartet, is almost seamless. I have this on an old vinyl record and the gap is so small between the tracks that I often don't notice the change when I'm doing other things while listening.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

First to second movement of Mendelssohn violin concerto. Matchless!


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Tie:

-the transition between the "Urlicht" and the last movement of Mahler's Symphony #2;

-the transition from the "Grosse Appell" and the choral entrance on "Aufersteh'n", same symphony.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> How are you defining "transition"?


Well, obviously, I'm being pretty liberal, in the sense that both of those works could be considered either one-movement works in multiple sections, or consisting of a number of distinct movements strung together.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Berlioz's Symphonie F. transition from 3rd to 4th. Beethoven's Waldstein from 2nd to 3rd. Cage's transition from 2nd to 3rd in 4'33" was the most seamless


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

The one from the third to the fourth movement of Beethoven's piano sonata no. 28.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

I take the transition from the third movement to the finale in *Sibelius*' Second Symphony. It is that special musical moment that would have done Tchaikovsky proud.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

DavidA said:


> First to second movement of Mendelssohn violin concerto. Matchless!


yes, indeed!! The sustained b natural for solo bassoon, molto espressivo. one of my favorites!!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> the Schumann #4 transition between mvt 3 and 4 is wonderful.


That transition is just a blatant, undigested imitation of Beethoven's Fifth.


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## Gouldanian (Nov 19, 2015)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I love the transition from 2nd to 3rd movement in Beethoven's 5th piano concerto. He thinks of a thematic fragment, noodles thoughtfully a couple of times, then decides "Yes, that's the one" and Wham!


Yes... I was going for this exact transition as well!


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I love the transition from 2nd to 3rd movement in Beethoven's 5th piano concerto. He thinks of a thematic fragment, noodles thoughtfully a couple of times, then decides "Yes, that's the one" and Wham!


Yes, I love it how Beethoven sometimes demonstrates his quest for new melodic ideas. It's like a written-out improvisation, where he enacts the creative process right before our very ears.

Another powerful example of this occurs in the Hammerklavier sonata, in the fantasia-like section right before the fugal finale. The fugal theme gradually emerges from a tonally ambiguous episode consisting of improvisatory passagework. I guess technically that section would be considered an introduction rather than a transition, but (in my opinion) it serves a transitional function between the slow movement and the furious fugue.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> That transition is just a blatant, undigested imitation of Beethoven's Fifth.


Hmmm...I don't hear it that way at all. It has a very different character, at least o my ears.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The transitions between each of the movements in both Sibelius' 7th symphony and Roy Harris' 3rd.


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Orfeo said:


> I take the transition from the third movement to the finale in *Sibelius*' Second Symphony. It is that special musical moment that would have done Tchaikovsky proud.


Yes, this is what I was going to say. To me this is the only one I can think of that even comes close to the transition between 3 and 4 in Beethoven's 5th.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I like the transition between the first and second movements in Mahler's 6th (when the scherzo is second movement). It just stands out as having a unique unrelenting quality to it, like 'I'm going to drive this point home as long as I darn well feel like it'. It maintains a high level of intensity and shuns the tradition of taking it down a notch. I like that.


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## Bevo (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm fond of the attacca between the second and third movements of Beethoven's Violin Concerto. That Larghetto is so mellow, peaceful, and calming. Then Beethoven does what he does best, surprising everyone and asserting himself with loud forceful and powerful tones, leading to a playful, yet powerful Rondo! Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto follows a bit of the same formula, but his Andante is a little more haunting leading up to the blaring Finale. Both are great. Beethoven's Sixth Symphony also has a unique one. I wouldn't say it's one of the best or anything, but it's definitely unique.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Becca said:


> The transitions between each of the movements in both Sibelius' 7th symphony and Roy Harris' 3rd.


P.S. I was not being facetious!


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Bettina said:


> Yes, I love it how Beethoven sometimes demonstrates his quest for new melodic ideas. It's like a written-out improvisation, where he enacts the creative process right before our very ears.
> 
> Another powerful example of this occurs in the Hammerklavier sonata, in the fantasia-like section right before the fugal finale. The fugal theme gradually emerges from a tonally ambiguous episode consisting of improvisatory passagework. I guess technically that section would be considered an introduction rather than a transition, but (in my opinion) it serves a transitional function between the slow movement and the furious fugue.


Yes. It takes a remarkable composer to work his thought processes into the finished piece, integrated but not tidied-up.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Just thought of another one.
Not exactly a transition, but Rachmaninov's 4th piano concerto is another one that has a 'noodling' intro, in this case to the 2nd movement, rambling around thematic material that does not subsequently appear in the movement.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Bevo said:


> I'm fond of the attacca between the second and third movements of Beethoven's Violin Concerto. That Larghetto is so mellow, peaceful, and calming. Then Beethoven does what he does best, surprising everyone and asserting himself with loud forceful and powerful tones, leading to a playful, yet powerful Rondo! ..... Beethoven's Sixth Symphony also has a unique one. I wouldn't say it's one of the best or anything, but it's definitely unique.


Good examples - Beethoven was a master of transition - Vln Cto is a fine example - so is Sym #6 - from scherzo, to storm, to finale...very effective.
He also does this with such artistry in the late 4tets, esp #s 13, 14, 15 - the "free form" ones. I say this because Beethoven largely eschews the standard 4 mvt format, and uses a remarkably free and spontaneous form, long, complex movements, connected by short statements that lead to the next section. To me, the form of these 4tets is more like a "fantasia" - almost a "stream of consciousness" style. lots if ideas, but all connected.remarkable works, for sure....a never-ending source of discovery and enjoyment.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Mahler 2nd symphony transition between the 3rd and 4th movements. The sort of silly and Jewwy 3rd movement starts spinning out of control then explodes in an orchestral scream. It's fantastic


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## Funny (Nov 30, 2013)

Orfeo already mentioned my favorite, the third to the finale in Sibelius 2nd, so I'll just add the way the fifth movement of Haydn's 60th leads into the sixth. The former, a slow movement, has settled into a pleasantly rocking, idle looped cadence that is repeating when someone decides it's going to take too long if it keeps on going like that so the music gets rushed to twice the speed, giving the impression of a dawdler getting frog-marched out of a room, it zips up into nothingness for a split second and is immediately followed (with the unresolved chord now being resolved) by the declarative bursts of the fast sixth movement. However, it seems the musicians were so eager to rush right into this movement that they forgot to tune, so the music stops dead for a quick orchestra tuning (really it's just the strings) and then starts over from the top of the movement.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Beethoven gets a lot of mentions in this thread and it's clear he thought a lot about transitions between movements. Another I'd add (among the many in his sonatas) is the transition between movements 3 and 4 of the _Appassionata_ (op.57 n-23) which is really a two-chord modulation from the Db major of the andante back to F minor.


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## Dumbo (Sep 3, 2017)

Beethoven's C#minor quartet, opus 130 something. The movements all segue into each other beautifully.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

((Sibelius 5. End of first movement where vast columns of brass slowly rise in extended arpeggios, while the giant mill wheel of the lower strings gradually speeds into the Andante. Karajan's good, but Davis in Boston is overwhelming. It's a magical moment in all music.))

Actually I wrote the above, but then realised that I'm talking about the transition within the existing first movement. The Andante is indeed quite separate. So the passage I refer to is really a transitional passage within the movement, and one fit to stand with the best of Bruckner's.

Before N in the first movement; Largamente; then poco a meno into the Allegro moderato. Moves from 12/8 in E flat to 3/4 in B major. The change of mood is enough to be a different movement in itself; it's virtually a scherzo embedded in the back half of the first movement.
Graeme


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

GraemeG said:


> ((Sibelius 5. End of first movement where vast columns of brass slowly rise in extended arpeggios, while the giant mill wheel of the lower strings gradually speeds into the Andante. Karajan's good, but Davis in Boston is overwhelming. It's a magical moment in all music.))
> 
> Actually I wrote the above, but then realised that I'm talking about the transition within the existing first movement. The Andante is indeed quite separate. So the passage I refer to is really a transitional passage within the movement, and one fit to stand with the best of Bruckner's.
> 
> ...


yes, Part one of Sibelius #5 is actually mvt I and II....they are connected. part 2 is actually MVT III, then the glorious finale is part3. for me, Bernstein/NYPO wins the prize throughout...a great recording.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

How about the transition into Nimrod from the Enigma variations, subtle but perfect, no?


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## pokeefe0001 (Jan 15, 2017)

Becca said:


> The transitions between each of the movements in both Sibelius' 7th symphony and Roy Harris' 3rd.





Becca said:


> P.S. I was not being facetious!


I guess the transitions between sections of any single-movement symphony have to rate as "great" when they work. And they work very well in those examples.

Actually, I haven't looked at the score. I guess I don't know if the Harris symphony has one movement or many (five?).


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## Pesaro (Oct 4, 2017)

Orfeo said:


> I take the transition from the third movement to the finale in *Sibelius*' Second Symphony. It is that special musical moment that would have done Tchaikovsky proud.


I totally agree. The transition in Sibelius 2 has extraordinary beauty and sets up the finale just perfectly, IMO.


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