# The Rach 2 has arrived...



## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

So I ordered a copy of Rachmaninoff's Second Piano Concerto, and I can't decide whether or not to learn it. It's difficult for sure, but not too much than his Prelude in G Minor, I think. A lot of it would be boring to play without the orchestra. Plus, it's Schirmer, so it's all cramped...

Ah well, maybe a good project for this summer


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

Hmmm... You think the Prelude in G Minor ranks in difficulty to the Second Piano Concerto?

I have learned neither one, only the first few measures. The Prelude seems easy if you simply sat down and studied it for a couple of hours a day and worked on it. I learned the first 40 measures or so of the second piano concerto and it seems moderately easy other than the large hands you need to hit every note with ease.

Anyways, you got the sheet music? You can get it online if you delete your cookies. You can get as many as you wish. Don't remember the website, but I'll look in a bit if you wish. The Second Movement would be extremely boring without orchestral background music I do believe. The first movement wouldn't though. It sounds nice without any extra. Anyways, good luck.


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

Rachovsky said:


> Hmmm... You think the Prelude in G Minor ranks in difficulty to the Second Piano Concerto?


Well, I'm not sure 

I checked over it (very briefly, haven't had time to really look ) and I didn't see anything where there was more ink than paper, or massive chords. Most of the difficulty, in my opinion, will come from getting it up to speed (just like most every song  ) I did notice a similarity to the prelude and the concerto, in that the mid section of the prelude and parts of the concerto are very similar; arpeggios with the left and melody and chords on the right...



> other than the large hands you need to hit every note with ease.


Well, my hands aren't that big, I can only reach a ninth comfortably, but we'll see 

Perhaps I'll be very disappointed and I won't be able to pull it off, but for now my hopes are modestly high


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

Rachovsky said:


> Hmmm... You think the Prelude in G Minor ranks in difficulty to the Second Piano Concerto?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

trojan rabbit said:


> Well, I'm not sure
> 
> I checked over it (very briefly, haven't had time to really look ) and I didn't see anything where there was more ink than paper, or massive chords. Most of the difficulty, in my opinion, will come from getting it up to speed (just like most every song  ) I did notice a similarity to the prelude and the concerto, in that the mid section of the prelude and parts of the concerto are very similar; arpeggios with the left and melody and chords on the right...
> 
> ...


I've always thought my hands could reach far, seeing as I'm 6'3. That usually comes with being tall. But I've noticed that I'm not at all flexible, so my hands can only reach a ninth comfortably as well. The Second Piano Concerto's first 8 chords make that extremely hard. I have to hit 2 keys with one finger I believe on the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th chord. The bass chords are even harder because I believe you have to reach from a low F to a high A flat and then hit a conglomerate of keys in between the F and A flat. Anyways, I think the concerto is 10 times harder than the Prelude. I don't even like the part with the arpeggio's and chords so I haven't tried to learn it. I love how Rachmaninoff's music sounds moderately easy, but its blazing hard. Good Luck though, I'm sure you can do it with practice.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

trojan rabbit said:


> It's difficult for sure


Yes, it is.



trojan rabbit said:


> but not too much than his Prelude in G Minor, I think.


You have no idea. It's a hard piece. If you can't even play a smooth 2-3 trill you just won't be able to tackle Rach's 2nd.

I have the score, I played some parts, I've turned pages of this concerto's score for a professional pianist as he was rehearsing it.... again, it's a hard piece.

If you decide to play it, come back to this thread in 8 months and read this again:

YOU CAN'T PLAY THIS WORK, I TOLD YOU.


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

Rachovsky said:


> I've always thought my hands could reach far, seeing as I'm 6'3. That usually comes with being tall. But I've noticed that I'm not at all flexible, so my hands can only reach a ninth comfortably as well. The Second Piano Concerto's first 8 chords make that extremely hard. I have to hit 2 keys with one finger I believe on the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th chord. The bass chords are even harder because I believe you have to reach from a low F to a high A flat and then hit a conglomerate of keys in between the F and A flat. Anyways, I think the concerto is 10 times harder than the Prelude. I don't even like the part with the arpeggio's and chords so I haven't tried to learn it. I love how Rachmaninoff's music sounds moderately easy, but its blazing hard. Good Luck though, I'm sure you can do it with practice.


Thanks, I appreciate that 

I agree, I think it's a good bit harder, and I'm going to have a crazy time trying to hit the chords, but for now, I'll try. I tried learning the prelude a year ago, and I couldn't do it, but now I can. So, I'd happily wait a year or so to learn it. Maybe I'll just try the second movement 

Thanks


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

2nd Movement is the most boring lol. But if you can learn it, sure.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

You could always try to simplify the opening chords... just figure out what they are (Im, VI, etc) and delete any unreachable/too difficult notes. Just make 'em sound like bells .


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

BuddhaBandit said:


> You could always try to simplify the opening chords... just figure out what they are (Im, VI, etc) and delete any unreachable/too difficult notes.


Yes, but those difficult notes are actually part of the music.


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Yes, but those difficult notes are actually part of the music.


Well, you can play them rolled, can't you?

I don't mean to go all melodramatic teenager on you, but it was really rude of you to say I simply had no chance. Sure, I could fail miserably, but still enjoy the learning.

And how says I can't play a smooth 2-3 trill? I just said I can't play them as fast as the tenth winner of the Van Cliburn competition, so excuse me! 

Anyway, the ending (_Risoluto_) is a series of quick chords, not even close to trills. Seriously, get you're facts right if you're going to be negative.

No offense, but I'm rather offended. I'll try, and I'll get back to you in something more like two years, 

hehe


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

trojan rabbit said:


> Well, you can play them rolled, can't you?


You are not supposed to do that, that's not what Rachmaninov wrote. However, that's what many low endowed pianists do. My advice is that if you chose to open those chords you should play all of them the same way, do not go plaqué on the first ones and spread the harder subsequent ones.

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was trying to make a point in an obnoxious way. I know there's a lot of fun on playing sections of works you like a lot, I dedicated a lot of time to parts of Beethoven's 3rd and 5th concerto, Brahms' and Tchaikovsky's 1st, Grieg's (my granma loves the work). But I also think you are wasting precious time.

A few years ago, my piano teacher played Chopin's Etude Op. 25 Nº 1, followed by a Cramer Etude that sounded very similar. Then he said: "If you were about to study the Chopin etude, it may take you up to three years to play it like a real pro, not just hit the notes in order, but to play it like a real concert hall pianist. And when you finished that, you will spend two other years until you master any other etude by Chopin. Now... if you spent one year ONLY with Czerny, Cramer and Herz (that meant leaving aside my expectations on Prokofiev, Liszt, Rachmaninov et al.) you will see such a great technical advance that you will be asking for the harder Czerny, Moscheles and Rubinstein.

Follow my advise, do not spend more than the 20% playing real music works right now. Instead, dedicate at least one or two years technique. There's nothing boring at all in slowly learning an etude, starting at 1/4=50 and accelerating to 1/4=180. Actually...

*IT FEELS AWESOME*

Take a look at these ones:










This is what happens when you play something you are not ready to tackle:





The Liszt video is very good, and I think there are lots of works you can play in full without problems:

Brahms: Rhapsody in G minor Op. 79 Nº 2, Scherzo Op. 4
Rachmaninov: the Prelude in the Op. 2.
Tchaikovsky: January, from The Seasons. (Not everything has to be bombastic).
Albeniz: Asturias (Legend, or Leyenda) and Tango.
Chopin: Preludes Op. 28 Nº 6 and 15, Nocturne Nº 20 (op. Post, the one from the The Pianist film)
Godowsky: Alt Wien (You will love this one).


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

YsayeOp.27#6 said:


> Yes, but those difficult notes are actually part of the music.


Well, big deal. TR's playing it for his own enjoyment; if he wants to just get the sound of it, then it's fine to change some of the music.

While maybe, as an improviser/composer, my views on printed music are more flexible than the norm, I think the above point still holds.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

BuddhaBandit said:


> While maybe, as an improviser/composer, my views on printed music are more flexible than the norm


I'm so delighted it works for you! I'm also sure (even though I don't really see the need) you are great improvising and adding snippets to tunes and melodies you catch off the air but...

He said he wants to learn the concerto, and the notes you are so inclined to remove because they "are hard", well... they are part of the work Rachmaninov composed. It's not about being a purist, it's about being faithful to the composer and his production.


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks Ysaye, point taken 

Anyway, Ashkenazy rolled them, so I wouldn't be the only one 

Anyway, maybe I would be wasting my time, and it probably would be good to work on technique. Any recommendations on a book, or songs?


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

You shouldn't miss Godowsky's Alt Wien (Old Vienna), it's a short piece from his Triakontameron. In fact, this Opus will give you many interesting things to work out:
1. Nocturnal Tangier.
6. The pleading trobadour.
7. Yesteryear 
9. Enchanted glen
11. Alt Wien "Whose Yesterdays look backwards with a smile through Tears".

I can send you the scores, no copyright law is to be violated.

Don't get a wrong impression from the cheesy names, these are fantastic works, but nothing here sounds explosive. And this is my general thought about this: right now you can't play demanding works like Brahms Paganini Variations, Rach Paganini Rhapsody, Balakirev Islamey or Chopin's First Ballade, but... you can tackle shorter pieces, very demanding on the expressive side of piano playing (Alt Wien is exactly one of those pieces). The control on expression you gain on this easier works will be applied in the year to come to the very difficult ones.


Get Konstantin Scherbakov's Triakontameron CD, from Naxos. It's an exquisite demonstration of true pianism.


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

I'd be happy to have these scores, and I think I will take your advice.

This would be a bit too big of a jump...

But I'll still take a look at the first movement


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

http://www.mediafire.com/?dmnn9b1o2ld

The Grand Pas de Deux, from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker
January, from the Seasons
a Fantasy on Greensleeves, by Vaughan Williams
and some etudes for the left hand by Wittgenstein. I say you should play the first one, it is Bach.

and an easy-abridged version of Rach 3rd.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Godowsky: http://www.mediafire.com/?bmzqzp2liao


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## trojan-rabbit (Nov 27, 2007)

I do love Pas de Deux, beautiful song....


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

At a stretch.............................................


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