# Opera with the largest orchestra?



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

What opera (either standard repertoire or obscure) has the largest orchestra?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Verdi, Wagner and Strauss (Richard): big, bigger, biggest.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Did you mean "opera" or "composer"?
And when you say "orchestra" does this include the choruses as well?


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

nina foresti said:


> Did you mean "opera" or "composer"?
> And when you say "orchestra" does this include the choruses as well?


I mean which single opera has the most players in just the orchestra.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I'd guess *Die Frau Ohne Schatten* by Richard Strauss

Supposedly Messiaen's *Saint François dAssise* has a huge orchestra, but I'm not sure - do the birds count?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> Supposedly Messiaen's *Saint François dAssise* has a huge orchestra, but I'm not sure - do the birds count?


It has a massive percussion section and *three* ondes martenots! 110 musicians in all, according to Wikipediea.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It has a massive percussion section and *three* ondes martenots! 110 musicians in all, according to Wikipediea.


According to Wikipedia, _Die Frau ohne Schatten _has 164 players in the orchestra, making it the biggest one mentioned yet. Wikipedia also says that _Elektra _has approximately 110 players in the orchestra, so that's huge as well.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

adriesba said:


> According to Wikipedia, _Die Frau ohne Schatten _has 164 players in the orchestra, making it the biggest one mentioned yet. Wikipedia also says that _Elektra _has approximately 110 players in the orchestra, so that's huge as well.


I was going to mention *Elektra* as well, as it is a huge sound when seeing it live.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I was going to mention *Elektra* as well, as it is a huge sound when seeing it live.


Maybe that's why I find so much of both *Elektra* and FROSCH just too loud. I don't really like either opera for that reason.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

If you count Der Ring as one opera, does that beat FROSCH?

N.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

The Conte said:


> If you count Der Ring as one opera, does that beat FROSCH?
> 
> N.


It depends on how many instruments it has in the orchestra. It's hard to top 164 instruments, or fit them all in the orchestra pit.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

adriesba said:


> It depends on how many instruments it has in the orchestra. It's hard to top 164 instruments, or fit them all in the orchestra pit.


But you wouldn't have to fit them all in the pit on the same night.

N.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

The Conte said:


> But you wouldn't have to fit them all in the pit on the same night.
> 
> N.


The instrumentation for each opera is similar though. So either way, the bulk of the orchestra has to be there each night.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Maybe that's why I find so much of both *Elektra* and FROSCH just too loud. I don't really like either opera for that reason.


I found *Elektra* mesmerizing when I first saw it. I don't think I breathed for the entire length of it. I love the ancient myths and stories of Ancient Greece, and this one fits the bill, not to mention the music matching the tragic story. It's an assault on the senses and yet, beautiful in its cacophonous way.

I hate the noise of the uncouth Baron in *Der Rosenkavalier* more than that of *Elektra*.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> I found *Elektra* mesmerizing when I first saw it. I don't think I breathed for the entire length of it. I love the ancient myths and stories of Ancient Greece, and this one fits the bill, not to mention the music matching the tragic story. It's an assault on the senses and yet, beautiful in its cacophonous way.
> 
> I hate the noise of the uncouth Baron in *Der Rosenkavalier* more than that of *Elektra*.


Elektra and Rosenkavalier remind me somewhat of Dante's Inferno and Paradiso. The former are horrendous in their barbarity and cruelty and in many ways the ethereal beauty of the latter are to be preferred. Light over darkness. However, most people find Inferno's extremes of human suffering more interesting than Paradiso's eternal comfort. I feel similarly about the two Strauss operas. Elektra holds my interest in a way that Rosenkavalier doesn't. (It helps that Elektra is over in less than two hours, though.)

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Not opera but Mahlers' Symphonies
I am guessing Verdi's _Aida_ and _Don Carlo_


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Wagner late operas call for quite massive orchestrations. The number of instruments is over 100 in multiple Wagner operas (if my math is correct). Of course it depends whether we count the number of players or instruments.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

adriesba said:


> The instrumentation for each opera is similar though. So either way, the bulk of the orchestra has to be there each night.


Absolutely, I thought it would be interesting to look at how many instruments there are in the Ring as a whole and it comes to 154 (those 18 off stage anvils push the number up somewhat!) So getting close to FROSCH, but no cigar.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I found *Elektra* mesmerizing when I first saw it. I don't think I breathed for the entire length of it. I love the ancient myths and stories of Ancient Greece, and this one fits the bill, not to mention the music matching the tragic story. It's an assault on the senses and yet, beautiful in its cacophonous way.
> 
> I hate the noise of the uncouth Baron in *Der Rosenkavalier* more than that of *Elektra*.


I put up with the "noise" of some of Baron Ochs' music (not all, he does after all have that anachronistic but lovely waltz) for the lyrical beauty of the music for the Marshcallin, Octavian and Sophie, and the final trio and duet almost makes me forgive anything.

On the other hand, *Elektra* usually sounds too overwrought and I tire of having those women scream at me for nigh on two hours. I prefer the Sawallisch recording to the Solti, as he seems to bring out more of the lyricism in the score, but I still don't like the opera much.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Since we are discussing it... 
Personally, I really like how intense and relentless of an opera _Elektra _is. I find Elektra and Klytämnestra to be interesting characters. It's almost scary how fascinating the portrayal of evil is in the opera. But perhaps part of the purpose of the opera is to expose to us the inner workings of the minds of such extremely dysfunctional characters. But yes, the orchestration is brilliant!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

adriesba said:


> Since we are discussing it...
> Personally, I really like how intense and relentless of an opera _Elektra _is. I find Elektra and Klytämnestra to be interesting characters. It's almost scary how fascinating the portrayal of evil is in the opera. But perhaps part of the purpose of the opera is to expose to us the inner workings of the minds of such extremely dysfunctional characters. But yes, the orchestration is brilliant!


The evil began with Agamemnon sacrificing their daughter Iphigenia to the wind gods for a good breeze so that 1,000 Greek ships could sail to Troy. They had been stuck for weeks because of a dead calm. In revenge, Klytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus murdered Agamemnon when he returned to Mycenae after the destruction of Troy.

Gluck's *Iphigenie en Aulus* tells that story.

Here's Irene Pappas as Klytemnestra in the film *Iphigenia* after the killing of Iphigenia.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

MAS said:


> The evil began with Agamemnon sacrificing their daughter Iphigenia to the wind gods for a good breeze so that 1,000 Greek ships could sail to Troy. They had been stuck for weeks because of a dead calm. In revenge, Klytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus murdered Agamemnon when he returned to Mycenae after the destruction of Troy.
> 
> Gluck's *Iphigenie en Aulus* tells that story.
> 
> ...


Interesting! I didn't know there was another opera dealing with this story.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

adriesba said:


> Interesting! I didn't know there was another opera dealing with this story.


There is then Iphigenie en Tauride also by Gluck. My knowledge of the original Greek materials isn't good enough to link them all together, but Gluck's operas are based on plays by Euripides.

More about Iphigenia here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> There is then Iphigenie en Tauride also by Gluck. My knowledge of the original Greek materials isn't good enough to link them all together, but Gluck's operas are based on plays by Euripides.
> 
> More about Iphigenia here:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia
> ...


There are two versions of the Iphigenia myth. In one she dies under the knife of the priests of Artemis (Diana). In another, she is saved by Artemis and becomes Artemis's priestess in Tauris (among the Taurians) in which she meets her brother Orestes. Both stories are by Euripides, but Iphigenia's fate in his play is ambiguous. The opera *Iphigenie en Tauris*is based on Goethe's play, who names Tauris as the place to which Iphigenia is transported.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The orchestra for Elektra is so huge it has the violins divided into THREE sections instead of the usual two, for both operasand orchestral works .


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