# Gardiner complete cantatas Box set JS Bach



## JSBach85

I started buying some volumes of Gardiner Bach cantatas in the Bach Cantata Pilgrimage collection in SDG label but eventually I got tired and now I am thinking about buying the complete box in the future:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Cantatas-Complete-Box-Set/dp/B00ETHPJ1U/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1502387254&sr=1-1&keywords=bach+cantatas+gardiner+complete

Somebody knows it? What's your opinion about the box, booklets, information, etc...? It says that has 56 cds, includes the complete cantatas works?

Thank you in advance


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## Granate

If you own some of the individual releases made from late 90s, you'll notice the difference when you get the same complete CDs, but in cardboard sleeves. Saving the compositions, what I love about the box set is that it is ordered in performing days.

It includes the complete cantatas because Archiv, from DG, allowed them to use four CDs from their catalogue that wasn't recorded for SDG. If you have enough money and you love the compositions, you could go for it. I prefer Gardiner to Suzuki, but I would need to compare them to Harnoncourt.



DarkAngel said:


> Gardiner "pilgrimage" Bach Cantata boxset, each CD has gatefold cardboard sleeve and unique photo, includes booklet and info CDR with Gardiner discussions and English and German texts of each cantata........
> 
> Itullian wants this.........:devil:


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## haydnfan

It is fantastic. I bought it as a placeholder for Suzuki and when the Suzuki set came out... well I actually prefer the Gardiner. Passionate but well judged performances. Suzuki is no slouch, but if I had to have only one set it would be Gardiner.

Rilling is highly inconsistent, some of them have some of the finest soloists work, and some are frankly terrible.
Leusink is un-inspired most of the time. Not nearly as bad people make it out, it's a fine super bargain (if it's still available).
I never warmed to the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. I just don't like this proto-HIP style and scrappy playing.
I sadly have not heard Koopman's recordings.
Kuijken and Herreweghe are awesome providing my favorite performances, neither one never made a complete set to my knowledge.
Suzuki is spiritual, beautiful but sometimes lacks the grit that is sometimes needed.
Gardiner is sensitive to the moods of each cantata and has great soloists.


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## JSBach85

haydnfan said:


> It is fantastic. I bought it as a placeholder for Suzuki and when the Suzuki set came out... well I actually prefer the Gardiner. Passionate but well judged performances. Suzuki is no slouch, but if I had to have only one set it would be Gardiner.
> 
> Rilling is highly inconsistent, some of them have some of the finest soloists work, and some are frankly terrible.
> Leusink is un-inspired most of the time. Not nearly as bad people make it out, it's a fine super bargain (if it's still available).
> I never warmed to the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. I just don't like this proto-HIP style and scrappy playing.
> I sadly have not heard Koopman's recordings.
> Kuijken and Herreweghe are awesome providing my favorite performances, neither one never made a complete set to my knowledge.
> Suzuki is spiritual, beautiful but sometimes lacks the grit that is sometimes needed.
> Gardiner is sensitive to the moods of each cantata and has great soloists.


I should have started a topic about Bach Cantatas Boxes instead of asking only about Gardiner... because is exactly what I am thinking about. I am completing Suzuki, just need the last set from 41 to 55:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00N9LNLOY/ref=pd_sim_15_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=MMBPY3ZSHJV2QNAQSWR8

I am also not fond of Harnoncourt, mainly because of the poor sound quality and the kids choir performance, I would be rather interested in either Gardiner or Koopman:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Complete-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B002O0Q652/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1502561566&sr=1-1&keywords=koopman+complete+cantatas

would be better to win a lottery before buying this one because is truly expensive... 

Then I am thinking... Suzuki + Gardiner?, Suzuki + Koopman?, Suzuki + Gardiner + Koopman?


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## Bulldog

haydnfan said:


> Gardiner is sensitive to the moods of each cantata and has great soloists.


Although I love Gardiner's celebratory approach, I'm not as keen as you concerning the vocal soloists. However, I've bought all the Gardiner cantata recordings and play them regularly along with Herreweghe, Rifkin and Suzuki. Koopman and I usually don't see these works in the same light.


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## JSBach85

Bulldog said:


> Although I love Gardiner's celebratory approach, I'm not as keen as you concerning the vocal soloists. However, I've bought all the Gardiner cantata recordings and play them regularly along with Herreweghe, Rifkin and Suzuki. Koopman and I usually don't see these works in the same light.


Herreweghe has not a cantatas complete box, but some recordings, as far as I remember (I am now out on holidays), mainly Christmas cantatas, but yes, every single recording is highly recommendable, I especially do like cantatas for alto with Andreas Scholl:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Cantatas-Scholl-Collegium-Herreweghe/dp/B000005Z30

We are quite similar in tastes  since I usually play different performers as well, in my case: Herreweghe, Suzuki, Gardiner (just only 7 recordings  up to now), Milnes and Kuijken. If you like Rifkin, why not considering Kuijken in Accent? I have 6 recordings out of 18 and I am happy with most of them.


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## Bulldog

I just haven't listened to Kuijken much in recent years.


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## jegreenwood

Bulldog said:


> I just haven't listened to Kuijken much in recent years.


I was going to post the a link to the Amazon page offering a box set of Kuijken's Cantata recordings for about $60, which I ordered and which was supposed to ship in September, but now it simply says currently unavailable. Here's the page for what it's worth.

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantata...qid=1502171881&sr=1-11&keywords=bach+cantatas


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## JSBach85

jegreenwood said:


> I was going to post the a link to the Amazon page offering a box set of Kuijken's Cantata recordings for about $60, which I ordered and which was supposed to ship in September, but now it simply says currently unavailable. Here's the page for what it's worth.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantata...qid=1502171881&sr=1-11&keywords=bach+cantatas


Wow! I didn't know there is a box set with the Kuijken cantatas for the liturgical year. I am trying to complete it individually. As far as I know, La Petite Bande is in financial trouble, that may be a reason that the project is cancelled.


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## JSBach85

Dear forum,

Which cantatas box sets (complete and non complete) do you own?


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## jegreenwood

I picked up DG's box set of Gardiner's Bach vocal music a while back. It includes about 10 discs worth of cantatas. I also have a four disc selection of popular cantatas from Harnoncourt/Leonhardt. Plus several individual discs by others.

Amazon is still promising me the Kuijken set in September.


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## Bulldog

JSBach85 said:


> Dear forum,
> 
> Which cantatas box sets (complete and non complete) do you own?


I don't have any box sets, having acquired the desired recordings when they first were released.


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## JSBach85

Bulldog said:


> I don't have any box sets, having acquired the desired recordings when they first were released.


Or several recordings of the same performers...


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## JSBach85

Granate said:


> If you own some of the individual releases made from late 90s, you'll notice the difference when you get the same complete CDs, but in cardboard sleeves. Saving the compositions, what I love about the box set is that it is ordered in performing days.
> 
> It includes the complete cantatas because Archiv, from DG, allowed them to use four CDs from their catalogue that wasn't recorded for SDG. If you have enough money and you love the compositions, you could go for it. I prefer Gardiner to Suzuki, but I would need to compare them to Harnoncourt.


Thank you for your review, I couldn't resist the temptation and I finally ordered it (my order of Koopman box set finally arrived in optimal conditions so I will give this one a try as well). I have some volumes on SDG, just 6 but I made some calculations and I found even cheaper to get the box set instead of trying to buy each other volume separately. I also read quite a lot possitive reviews on Amazon so Gardiner is definitely a must have.

Someone owns/listened to Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set? Looks like is even cheaper.


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## Taplow

JSBach85 said:


> Someone owns/listened to Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set? Looks like is even cheaper.


I own the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set. I bought it primarily for the novelty of the all-male voices, but also because I respect both these conductors. While there are some nice performances here, they are inconsistent, particularly when it comes to the vocals. I think it is especially the boy soloists who let it down for me. While I love the sound, they are not fully in control of their voices, and do not have the strength or confidence to pull off some of the demanding arias. The main reason Harnoncourt chose to dispense with boy sopranos/altos in his later set, was because boys' voices are breaking earlier, and they don't have the time to develop any maturity before that point. It must have been a wonder to hear the young male soloists (and castrati) of the church in Bach's own time. Sadly those days are gone.

I find myself these days far more often going to my individual recordings of some of the Herreweghe cantatas. Far more consistent, and outstanding performances from both band and soloists.


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## wkasimer

> I own the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set. I bought it primarily for the novelty of the all-male voices, but also because I respect both these conductors. While there are some nice performances here, they are inconsistent, particularly when it comes to the vocals. I think it is especially the boy soloists who let it down for me. While I love the sound, they are not fully in control of their voices, and do not have the strength or confidence to pull off some of the demanding arias.


I pretty much agree with this. I remember the excitement around this series, which was the first complete recording of the cantatas; each LP volume included scores. I still listen to them, mostly because I'm a huge fan of tenor Kurt Equiluz, who sings the majority of the tenor solos.


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## Blancrocher

JSBach85 said:


> Dear forum,
> 
> Which cantatas box sets (complete and non complete) do you own?


My main advice is to avoid the Rilling box at all costs (no matter how low). The recording's wonky.


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## premont

Blancrocher said:


> My main advice is to avoid the Rilling box at all costs (no matter how low). The recording's wonky.


Even if Rilling is far from my ideal, I do not find him that bad.

His conducting is (usually) lively and observant to the polyphony. Most of the instrumental soloists are outstanding. Well, unfortunately modern instruments and equal tuning are used. The choir is too big but well rehearsed. The soloists vary from awful to excellent, some sound as if they have come straight from La Traviata or something like that, others sound as if they are specialized in Bach. So a mixed pleasure, but with many fine moments.


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## JSBach85

Blancrocher said:


> My main advice is to avoid the Rilling box at all costs (no matter how low). The recording's wonky.


I am curious to know how this sounds (I know they are not HIP) just because I met a guy, strongly committed to HIP who thought that Rilling had some kind of interest for him because "so many years directing Bach music gives to Rilling some recognition" (I just paste his own words). Of course, I am talking about giving a chance through youtube, I would be more interested in getting Harnoncourt/Leonhardt box set instead.


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## Marc

In general, I would say that, because projects like these last so long (good examples are Rilling, Leonhardt/Harnoncourt, Suzuki), there is a great chance of a certain inconsistency. Of the three mentioned, Rilling is probably the most inconsistent. It's audible that he went from (more or less) non-HIP to (more or less again) HIP-influenced. Gardiner's _live_ set is recorded in one church year (around 1999/2000), which means that his integral is very consistent, despite the ups and downs of course of favourite or less favourite soloists. Leusink's set was recorded around the same time (for the Brilliant Classics Bach Edition of 2000), which means that he is quite consistent, too.

So, when you listen to one Gardiner-disc, then you got the (his) idea. The same goes for Leusink. But when you listen to one Rilling-disc of around 1983, well, you might be in for a surprise when, after that, you listen to a 1970 recording.


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## Blancrocher

premont said:


> Even if Rilling is far from my ideal, I do not find him that bad.
> 
> His conducting is (usually) lively and observant to the polyphony. Most of the instrumental soloists are outstanding. Well, unfortunately modern instruments and equal tuning are used. The choir is too big but well rehearsed. The soloists vary from awful to excellent, some sound as if they have come straight from La Traviata or something like that, others sound as if they are specialized in Bach. So a mixed pleasure, but with many fine moments.


Did you not notice serious problems with the recording quality (which is my only complaint)? It could be that I listened to it on a bad system, but would suggest that anyone try before buying.


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## premont

Blancrocher said:


> Did you not notice serious problems with the recording quality (which is my only complaint)? It could be that I listened to it on a bad system, but would suggest that anyone try before buying.


Yes, the recording quality is variable, reflecting the long time span the set was recorded in. But I do not think, that it at worst excludes the set as such. This may of course be more important to some.

In the end it depends upon how much we are willing to pay for it. The actual cost for a new item of the sacred cantata set is around 100 Euros, and this is more, than I would invest.


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## haydnfan

Blancrocher said:


> My main advice is to avoid the Rilling box at all costs (no matter how low). The recording's wonky.


They were recorded over a 15 year period. It is hard to characterize an entire set that way. And sound quality is good stereo.


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## hpowders

Blancrocher said:


> My main advice is to avoid the Rilling box at all costs (no matter how low). The recording's wonky.


Yes, nobody should be Rilling on that set, when there's Gardiner and Suzuki sets to be had.


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## haydnfan

hpowders said:


> Yes, nobody should be Rilling on that set, when there's Gardiner and Suzuki sets to be had.


Even though I highly prefer both of those sets to Rilling, I still disagree. Those sets are 2-3x the price of the Rilling one. If someone was on a tight budget the choices are Rilling, Leusink, and Harnoncourt/Leonhart. And out of those three Rilling is the set I would recommend due to the soloists despite being wildly uneven.

So I would rephrase it as "if budget is not an issue, then buy either Gardiner or Suzuki."


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## JSBach85

Dear forum,

My Gardiner box set have arrived! Summarizing, at this moment I own Koopman and Gardiner complete box sets and Suzuki up to volume 40, I ordered the last limited edition vol.5 (from 41 to 55) in August but is taking long. I am also purchasing some cantatas recordings by Herreweghe (is among my favourite Bach performers). Considering and I also admit I am fully committed to HIP performances, would you consider another box set or other recordings of Bach cantatas essential to enjoy them?


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## jegreenwood

Just got an update from Amazon that I can expect delivery of the Kuijken box set around September 21.


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## JSBach85

Because of its price, and also because is the only box set (not complete but big project enough) using OVPP theory is another one to consider. I also ordered it and I am thinking about listening to them each Sunday. Do not hesitate to give me your opinion when you receive it!


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## JSBach85

*JS Bach Cantatas, Kuijken Box set*

I've just received the Kuijken Box Set from Amazon Germany. For those who pre-ordered Kuijken Box Set of The Complete Liturgical Years in 64 Cantatas, just for your information, I am attaching you some photos I've taken to give you an idea of the product (sorry for the quality, I am not a good photographer)

Box Set sealed (front)









Box Set sealed (Back)









Booklet and Box set opened in the background









Box Set opened (paper sleeves)









I haven't listened to any cd yet so I will only comment about the box presentation. As you can appreciate each volume (cd) is fitted on paper sleeves. The booklet, despite doesn't contain all the information, have all the tracks, an introduction and all the performers. Every booklet of each volume is scanned in pdf in good quality and you will find them in the last cd, cd19, along with the same booklet in paper scanned in pdf as well.


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## Guest

I have listened to all the cd's except the last two.
I still am strongly attracted to the Harnoncourt / Leonhardt recordings.
The insecurities of the boy sopranos is not a big problem for me.There is so much beauty in these performances.
Sometimes it sounds almost horrible but there are so many compensations.
Max van Egmond is one of them.

I have this box bought JPC and have them about three weeks.


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## JSBach85

Thank you for your opinion about Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, I will consider it as well because is a bargain but currently I am economically exhausted because of getting Koopman, Gardiner and Kuijken box sets. If you have the box set and not the separate recordings, could you please tell me about the sound quality?


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## Mal

Is it worth buying these box sets? I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces. For example, Rob Cowan picks out only 7 for his top 1000 pieces of classical music in his Guinness 1000 guide. When an average cantata pops up on the radio it, generally, doesn't impress me that much. (Though some, I agree, are masterpieces...) So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead? I mean there's only so much time, and the great masterpieces deserve to be heard many times, so is there time to listen to Bach's minor cantatas?


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## Guest

JSBach85 said:


> Thank you for your opinion about Harnoncourt/Leonhardt, I will consider it as well because is a bargain but currently I am economically exhausted because of getting Koopman, Gardiner and Kuijken box sets. If you have the box set and not the separate recordings, could you please tell me about the sound quality?


Here is a cantate I really love.The sound on the cd is better,please listen to the whole cantate and you will hear ( hopefully what attracts me in these recordings.
What you hear is not always perfect but there is something in these recordings.........





It is almost dancing but in a solemn way.:angel:


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## Guest

Mal said:


> Is it worth buying these box sets? I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces. For example, Rob Cowan picks out only 7 for his top 1000 pieces of classical music in his Guinness 1000 guide. When an average cantata pops up on the radio it, generally, doesn't impress me that much. (Though some, I agree, are masterpieces...) So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead? I mean there's only so much time, and the great masterpieces deserve to be heard many times, so is there time to listen to Bach's minor cantatas?


It is if you are trying to say that so much beauty is too much.Yes most of the cantatas are realy beautiful and many of them are
masterpieces ,if you love Bach you know what I mean.


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## Manxfeeder

Mal said:


> So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead?


It's true, there's so much art and not enough time for all of it.

I can just share my experience. A while ago, when I got my complete cantatas set, I went through one cantata one day at a time until I heard all of them. I found out that going through all the cantatas actually made me appreciate his insights into the human condition, of how we face all life's problems and uncertainties armed with nothing but faith. It was surprisingly affirming. So personally, I found the effort worthwhile.


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## Marc

Mal said:


> Is it worth buying these box sets? I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces. For example, Rob Cowan picks out only 7 for his top 1000 pieces of classical music in his Guinness 1000 guide. When an average cantata pops up on the radio it, generally, doesn't impress me that much. (Though some, I agree, are masterpieces...) So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead? I mean there's only so much time, and the great masterpieces deserve to be heard many times, so is there time to listen to Bach's minor cantatas?


IMHO, the quality level of these works is high. So, to me, the expression _Bach's minor cantatas_ is a oxymoron.


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## Bulldog

Mal said:


> Is it worth buying these box sets? I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces. For example, Rob Cowan picks out only 7 for his top 1000 pieces of classical music in his Guinness 1000 guide. When an average cantata pops up on the radio it, generally, doesn't impress me that much. (Though some, I agree, are masterpieces...) So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead? I mean there's only so much time, and the great masterpieces deserve to be heard many times, so is there time to listen to Bach's minor cantatas?


I don't have any of the box sets; packages that big make me nervous. However, every single Bach cantata is a gem. For those who can handle a large box set better than I can, go for it!


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## JSBach85

Mal said:


> Is it worth buying these box sets? I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces. For example, Rob Cowan picks out only 7 for his top 1000 pieces of classical music in his Guinness 1000 guide. When an average cantata pops up on the radio it, generally, doesn't impress me that much. (Though some, I agree, are masterpieces...) So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead? I mean there's only so much time, and the great masterpieces deserve to be heard many times, so is there time to listen to Bach's minor cantatas?


In my case, I mostly focus on Renaissance and Baroque, occasionally in Classical period. I spend around 95% of the time listening to Renaissance & Baroque periods. I listened to several Romantic works but I realized this period is not for me, and I am not interested in listening to everything, but those periods I have affinity with them. There are a huge and more than enough amount of composers/works to discover within Renaissance & Baroque periods and I am really happy with them. JS Bach is my favourite composer ever and I still listened to every single cantata since I owned Leusink Box set (I got rid off it several years ago), first, and later the Suzuki Set and several other recordings of other performers: Herreweghe, Gardiner, Milnes, Kuijken (I owned 6 recordings out of 18), Pierlot, Junghanel, ... Considering I have 32 years old, I will have more than enough time to listen to every single composition by JS Bach and several other baroque composers (I still own thousands of recordings of Renaissance and Baroque period and they are not enough, there is always hundred/thousands of works/compositions to listen to).

PS. "I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces". For me all the cantatas are great masterpieces. Why? Because I listened to several cantatas of other german baroque composers of that time: Kuhnau, Telemann, Graupner, Homilius, Stolzel, Buxtehude, Bruhns, ... and none of them attracts me as Johann Sebastian Bach cantatas does. It's not my fault, however, that modern audiences are not able to appreciate Bach works in the same manner that they do with modern composers, perhaps they are not suited for 18th century music at all but I really like this period, not only in music, but also in arts and literature.


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## jegreenwood

Mal said:


> Is it worth buying these box sets? I haven't heard anyone say that all the cantatas are great masterpieces. For example, Rob Cowan picks out only 7 for his top 1000 pieces of classical music in his Guinness 1000 guide. When an average cantata pops up on the radio it, generally, doesn't impress me that much. (Though some, I agree, are masterpieces...) So when you are listening through the whole set do you never wish that you were listening, or re-listening, to the best works of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc., instead? I mean there's only so much time, and the great masterpieces deserve to be heard many times, so is there time to listen to Bach's minor cantatas?


Crude as it may sound, money enters into it. Unlike JSBach85, I listen to a good deal of post-Baroque music as well as Baroque and Renaissance music. I certainly don't have time to listen as much as I might want to all that I like. With the advent of mega-boxes over the past decade or so, for the first time in my life I own quite a few discs that I have listened to only once - some never. I have about 40 cantatas already, and I certainly haven't fully digested all of those. Moreover, there are so many recordings, including the Kuijken recordings I ordered, available for streaming.

As a consequence I have cut back on my purchases. But in listening to the streaming versions of the Kuijken (often through my rather analytical AKG 701 headphones), my appreciation of Bach's counterpoint has grown. This is due to the OVPP style of the recordings. (I don't care if that is historically accurate, if it helps my appreciation.) While I have OVPP recordings of several of Bach's major choral works, I did not have any such recordings of cantatas. And I suppose, perhaps purely for instinctive reasons, OVPP feels more appropriate in smaller works.

So in this case, while I have never before been motivated to buy a mega-box of the cantatas, this set will truly add something that my music collection is missing. And now that it is available at a bargain price - 19 discs for the price of about 4 - I jumped at it.


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## Marc

JSBach85 said:


> [...] It's not my fault, however, that modern audiences are not able to appreciate Bach works in the same manner that they do with modern composers, perhaps they are not suited for 18th century music at all but I really like this period, not only in music, but also in arts and literature.


The amount of 'modern' humans who are able to appreciate Bach (and other Renaissance/Baroque) works is still growing. 'Old music' (or 'ancient music' or whatever) has enjoyed a growing interest and has been a developing industry for the last, say, 30 to 40 years. And there are still many gems to discover, I reckon. 
Which means: a bright future lies ahead of you!


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## Mal

Manxfeeder said:


> I found out that going through all the cantatas actually made me appreciate his insights into the human condition, of how we face all life's problems and uncertainties armed with nothing but faith. It was surprisingly affirming. So personally, I found the effort worthwhile.


I don't go to Bach for "insights into the human condition", as an atheist, I cannot relate to his faith at all. I go to Bach for the aesthetic pleasure that the best of his music provides. But, as the Rough Guide says, "Not all of them are great works - some contain unidiomatic and occasionally meandering vocal lines." In general, I prefer non vocal works anyway - the words (for me) always get in the way! But, as the rough guide also says of the cantatas, "the best are masterpieces and should not be ignored." As with Mozart's opera, you just have to hear them, and put up with the foreign languages and bad plots. Anyway, I'll continue dipping in carefully, not via box sets, but via individual disks or small collections of "greatest cantatas".


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## Bulldog

Mal said:


> I don't go to Bach for "insights into the human condition", as an atheist, I cannot relate to his faith at all. I go to Bach for the aesthetic pleasure that the best of his music provides. But, as the Rough Guide says, "Not all of them are great works - some contain unidiomatic and occasionally meandering vocal lines." In general, I prefer non vocal works anyway - the words (for me) always get in the way! But, as the rough guide also says of the cantatas, "the best are masterpieces and should not be ignored."


I'm a jewish atheist and have no problem loving sacred choral works. It's the music that counts. As for the human condition, I think that's a basic element of all music; don't know how you can avoid it. I am not familiar with the Rough Guide, but it seems to be your musical bible.


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## JSBach85

Mal said:


> I don't go to Bach for "insights into the human condition", as an atheist, I cannot relate to his faith at all. I go to Bach for the aesthetic pleasure that the best of his music provides. But, as the Rough Guide says, "Not all of them are great works - some contain unidiomatic and occasionally meandering vocal lines." In general, I prefer non vocal works anyway - the words (for me) always get in the way! But, as the rough guide also says of the cantatas, "the best are masterpieces and should not be ignored." As with Mozart's opera, you just have to hear them, and put up with the foreign languages and bad plots. Anyway, I'll continue dipping in carefully, not via box sets, but via individual disks or small collections of "greatest cantatas".


That's incredible! I do not need someone to tell me which genre/music I must listen to!. Obviously, the opinion of this individual is completely biased, who, in 21th century, has the authority to judge the Bach's works? If I want an opinion to know if a vocal work under the authorship of Bach is a masterpiece or not, I would ask better to Leipzig church authorities of 18th century, the Dresden Court, Graupner, CPE Bach and also their students. Those who lived in 18th century had no question that Bach vocal works were indeed "masterpieces".

Also, we (humans) all are not the same. That is the reason some people are atheist while others religious, some people have a religion, others have other religion, and some like Romantic period while others not, so I will be listening to Bach works even if those 21th century "experts" consider that is not worth even giving a try. They don't know what they are missing!. I have been listening to Renaissance & Baroque for the last 8 years and I don't even know 30% of the works of those periods (maybe I am being too optimistic and this number may be 5 or 10%).


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## Guest

Bulldog said:


> I'm a jewish atheist and have no problem loving sacred choral works. It's the music that counts. As for the human condition, I think that's a basic element of all music; don't know how you can avoid it. I am not familiar with the Rough Guide, but it seems to be your musical bible.


Sacred or secular cantatas,both are beautiful


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## Mal

JSBach85 said:


> ... so I will be listening to Bach works even if those 21th century "experts" consider that is not worth even giving a try. They don't know what they are missing!. I have been listening to Renaissance & Baroque for the last 8 years and I don't even know 30% of the works of those periods (maybe I am being too optimistic and this number may be 5 or 10%).


As I said, the Rough Guide experts are not saying Bach's cantatas are not worth trying, in fact they encourage me to try the best of them when otherwise I might not have bothered. By the way, the Rough Guide to Classical Music is not my "Bible" it's just one of five CD guides I have, none of which say all Bach's cantatas are masterpieces. I mean, come on, the guy was knocking them out at an incredible rate, how could they all be of masterpiece quality? The same goes for Haydn and Mozart symphonies. Before Beethoven composers seemed to have a "never mind the quality feel the width" approach. I guess it depends on your definition of masterpiece. For me, and I think for most music critics, it would mean of a similar aesthetic quality to the symphonies, piano concertos, and other great works, by Beethoven and Brahms. Certainly much of Bach's work comes up to this standard, by my ears and by what the critics say, but far from all of it.


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## jegreenwood

A different point of view:

"More than half of the sacred cantatas were written between 1723 and 1726, when Bach was in the early years of his long, and often unrewarding, appointment as the cantor of the Thomaskirche, in Leipzig. For extended stretches of the liturgical year, he produced one cantata a week, and for the most part he refused to take the easy path of reworking older pieces, whether his own or others'. Instead, in what seems a kind of creative rage, he experimented with every aspect of the cantata form, which traditionally served as a musical meditation on the Scriptural readings of the week. There are intimidating fugal choruses, sublimely extended operatic arias, frenzied instrumental interludes, weird chords galore, episodes of almost irreverent dancing merriment. To hear the entire corpus is to be buffeted by the restless energy of Bach's imagination. Recently, I listened to around fifty of the cantatas during a thousand-mile drive in inland Australia, and, far from getting too much of a good thing, I found myself regularly hitting the repeat button. Once or twice, I stopped on the side of the road in tears."

Alex Ross (music critic for the New Yorker)

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2009/11/bach-cantatas.html


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## Marc

Mal said:


> As I said, the Rough Guide experts are not saying Bach's cantatas are not worth trying, in fact they encourage me to try the best of them when otherwise I might not have bothered. By the way, the Rough Guide to Classical Music is not my "Bible" it's just one of five CD guides I have, none of which say all Bach's cantatas are masterpieces. I mean, come on, the guy was knocking them out at an incredible rate, how could they all be of masterpiece quality? The same goes for Haydn and Mozart symphonies. Before Beethoven composers seemed to have a "never mind the quality feel the width" approach. I guess it depends on your definition of masterpiece. For me, and I think for most music critics, it would mean of a similar aesthetic quality to the symphonies, piano concertos, and other great works, by Beethoven and Brahms. Certainly much of Bach's work comes up to this standard, by my ears and by what the critics say, but far from all of it.


That's a clear point of view.
I only wonder: why did you ask "Is it worth buying these box sets?" 
Because it seems to me that, for yourself, you already knew the answer.

Btw: I like my Beethoven and I like my Brahms, but compared to Bach... I mean, just imagine, knocking out those cantatas at an incredible rate, and almost all of them are masterpieces!


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## Guest

Most of them are masterpieces,no dull repetition,always fresh and innovative.I heard them all more than once but of course that is just my opinion.There is no "never mind the quality" by Bach.
Many cantatas are lost ,it is a pity.


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## jegreenwood

Also from the Ross article:

" (In the wrong hands, the “one voice per part” approach can yield a scrawny sound, but in recent cantata recordings under the direction of Sigiswald Kuijken, on the Accent label, it has the effect of clearing away centuries of musical clutter.)"

Amazon just charged my credit card today, so delivery next week seems a reality.


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## Guest

But there is nothing wrong in using a choir,not a colossal one, to give the sound some substance and weight.


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## jegreenwood

Traverso said:


> But there is nothing wrong in using a choir,not a colossal one, to give the sound some substance and weight.


And I have recordings of various Bach choral works by Munchinger and Richter (as well as Harnoncourt, Gardiner and several others). But OVPP helps *me* hear things I miss with larger ensembles.


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## Marc

Mal said:


> [...] as the Rough Guide says, "Not all of them are great works - some contain unidiomatic and occasionally meandering vocal lines." [...]


To me, this proofs that the Rough Guide has got no clue of baroque and earlier music at all. With statements like these, it would be impossible to name just one vocal masterwork composed by high class composers like Palestrina, Lassus, Monteverdi or Bach.
The Rough Guide probably thinks that classical music starts somewhere between 1700-1750. Beginning with a few masterworks by blokes like Bach and Händel. But the most TRUE masterworks are written in the 19th century (and maybe later).
Again, it's a clear point of view, but to me it's useless to have classical music of the periods from Middle Ages up to Baroque getting reviewed by critics who listen to all classical music with 19th century-and-later (de)formed ears. 
With sentences like "[...] unidiomatic and occasionally meandering vocal lines" the Rough Guide probably thinks of any disc made by Ensemble Organum as 'rubbish'.


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## Marc

Here's a good example of unidiomatic and meandering vocal lines.
Opening choir of BWV 39 "Brich dem Hungrigen dein Brot".
Part of the Bach/Gardiner Cantatas Pilgrimage boxset.


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## jegreenwood

JSBach85 said:


> I've just received the Kuijken Box Set from Amazon Germany. For those who pre-ordered Kuijken Box Set of The Complete Liturgical Years in 64 Cantatas, just for your information, I am attaching you some photos I've taken to give you an idea of the product (sorry for the quality, I am not a good photographer)
> 
> . . .
> 
> I haven't listened to any cd yet so I will only comment about the box presentation. As you can appreciate each volume (cd) is fitted on paper sleeves. The booklet, despite doesn't contain all the information, have all the tracks, an introduction and all the performers. Every booklet of each volume is scanned in pdf in good quality and you will find them in the last cd, cd19, along with the same booklet in paper scanned in pdf as well.


Mine just arrived. Looking forward to listening. While I'm sure I have plenty of duplicates (or triplicates) among the recordings I have, I would guess I have versions of close to half of the cantatas. I doubt I will buy a complete set, as I can't imagine having sufficient time to really delve into the ones I have. And if there's a specific cantata or recording I don't have but want to check out, there's always Tidal.

Edit - found an error on the box. Cantata 82 is on disc 14, not 3 or 4. Does anyone know offhand where it fits in the liturgical year. (This from a nice Jewish boy. )

Further edit - what do other people think of the http://bach-cantatas.com website?


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## Marc

jegreenwood said:


> [...] Edit - found an error on the box. Cantata 82 is on disc 14, not 3 or 4. Does anyone know offhand where it fits in the liturgical year. (This from a nice Jewish boy. )


BWV 82 was composed for the Feast(s) of _Purification of Mary / Presentation of Jesus at the Temple_.


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