# Granate's Bruckner Challenge - Symphony No.5



## Granate

*No.5 Results:*
Trash
44th: Tintner RNSO
43rd: Järvi ROTH
42nd: Horenstein BBC SO
41st: Asahina OPO

Decent
40th: Knappertsbusch MPO
39th: Schuricht RSOS
38th: Haitink WPO
37th: Sawallisch BySO
36th: Eichhorn SOdBR
35th: Jochum SKD
34th: Kempe MPO
33rd: Matačić CzPO
32nd: Sinopoli SKD
31st: Barenboim CSO
30th: Maazel SOdBR
29th: Klemperer WPO

Good
28th: Skrowaczewski RSOS
27th: Schuricht WPO
26th: Jochum RCO
25th: Maazel WPO
24th: Solti CSO
23rd: Klemperer PO
22nd: Celibidache Altus
21st: Wand NHKSO
20th: Wand BPO
19th: Harnoncourt WPO
18th: Haitink SOdBR
17th: Gielen SWR SO
16th: Knappertsbusch WPO
15th: Ormandy PhlO
14th: Haitink RCO (1p)
13th: Jochum RCO
12th: Young HPO (2p)
11th: Venzago TS (3p)

TOP10

_10th_ (4p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Günter Wand, KRSO, Sony (1974/2002 Remastered Edition)*

_Excellent rendition for the first half with an intense Allegro and a legato Adagio that is played like no other. The shame is the way this becomes stale from then._
*C+*

_9th_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Jaap van Zweden, NthRPO, Exton (2007)*

_What moves this recording is not the seek for the perfect sound or the right variations, but a good deal of contemplation in the Adagio, for instance._
*C+*

_8th_ (5p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Eugen Jochum, SOdBR, DG (1958/2016 Reissue Edition)*

_Jochum sounds tamed in the Allegro until the Adagio arrives and sets an emotional pace for the symphony and results in maybe the best finale of the No.5 recordings yet. A tough feat._
*C+*

_7th_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Christian Thielemann, MPO, DG (2005)*

_Precise as a watch but not boring at all. That feature makes it specially compelling_
*C+*

_6th_ (6p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Herbert von Karajan, BPO, DG (1976)*

_Finally one conductor can stand out with a fierce interpretation of the first half, may be the Allegro or the strong Adagio._
*C+*


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## Granate

*TOP5 No.5*

_TOP5_ (7p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Wilhelm Furtwängler, BPO, Testament (1942 Live recording / 2011 Remastered Edition)*

_Portentous remastering effort by Testament to bring Furt's Bruckner No.5 in the best possible quality after being vanished off Germany after the war. The original remastered tapes make this probably the best historical recording of the symphony, excelling in the Adagio if it wasn't for the amount of coughs during that moment._
*C+*

_TOP4_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, RSOS, DG (1981/2004 Issue Edition)*

_The shame of this recording is the lesser developed Allegro Scherzo and Finale compared with the abnormal and expansive Adagio. Many conductors play with all the volume, but Celibidache knows how to dose it and reach a climax. Best Adagio over Wand._
*B-*

_*TOP3*_ (8p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Lovro von Matačić, NHKSO, Altus (1967 Live recording / 2006 Issue Edition)*

_Outstanding clarity of the strings and woodwind and magnificient takes of the Adagio (ending the theme with the first violin) and a furious Scherzo. The timpani phrases give the grandeur approach, maybe the Finale is too mahlerian._
*B-*

_*TOP2*_ (9p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Herbert Blomstedt, LGO, Querstand (2010)*

_I had already been over the limits of my patience, but this was the first recording to score a notable for the clarity and strenght of the movements (not such precision). The Scherzo joined to the Adagio in the feast._
*B-*

_*TOP1*_ (10p)









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, MPO, WC (1993/2011 Issue Edition)*

_As great, as tense, maybe not as silent, as I wished for. Celibidache does get better movements out of the Allegro and Scherzo, working on the sound of the strings playing. The Adagio is another wonder but not with the progression of the DG recording. The tension is guaranteed._
*B*

A very tough listening exercise. Of these recordings I would settle with the three first (the epic, the furious and the contemplative) and two Adagios, Celibidache RSOS and Wand KRSO. I swear that from one point all the symphonies started to sound the same. I could simply not rate anything. I could not tell if they were doing it right or wrong or the symphony had those characteristics. This top 10 has managed to take everything possible from these original manuscripts.

For me this symphony represents a challenge because of how tough is to set any difference and how easy it seems to get one right. The expansive Adagio is one of Bruckner's hidden treasures. It could just be listened alone as R. Strauss' Metamorphosen does. If it is done right, we may have a great experience.

After not counting with Symphonies No.1 & No.2, Celibidache scores 30p out of the 30 that he could manage at this stage. (Tennstedt No.3 is better but he does not compete for sets).

No.6 may be easier because there are less recordings to rate. That's it. Comment your favourites below!


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## realdealblues

Wow, totally opposite tastes on this Symphony. 

5 from your top 10 including both Celibidache recordings, Thielemann, Matacic and Zweden would be at the bottom of my list filed under "Trash".

Top picks for Symphony 5:

Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orchestra (Orfeo)
Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Radio Symphony (Oehms)
Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI)
Gielen/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Intercord)

Symphony 6 is the easiest of the bunch for me. The only one I will ever need is Klemperer.


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## Granate

realdealblues said:


> Wow, totally opposite tastes on this Symphony.
> 
> 5 from your top 10 including both Celibidache recordings, Thielemann, Matacic and Zweden would be at the bottom of my list filed under "Trash".
> 
> Top picks for Symphony 5:
> 
> Sawallisch/Bavarian State Orchestra (Orfeo)
> Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken Radio Symphony (Oehms)
> Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (EMI)
> Gielen/SWF Symphony Orchestra (Intercord)


I wouldn't say your choices are bad at all in my opinion (well, that Jochum EMI is too sour for me). I was looking for readings that had any differences, that made me feel something, and that is very subjective. Thank you very much for voicing your favourites. :tiphat:









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Wolfgang Sawallisch, BySO, Orfeo (1992)*

_A correct version with a little restrained sound but anyway convincing._
*C*









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Michael Gielen, SWR SO BBuF, SWR (1989)*

_Good accomplishment. There is little interpretation but a good recipe from start to finish._
*C*









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Stanisław Skrowaczewski, RSOS, Oehms (2003)*

_Just good as any other recording._
*C*









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.5 in B flat major (1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Eugen Jochum, SKD, WC (1980/1990 Reissue Edition)*

_Emotionless performance, almost impossible to elevate from the ground._
*C-*


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## Granate

realdealblues said:


> 5 from your top 10 including both Celibidache recordings, Thielemann, *Matacic* and Zweden would be at the bottom of my list filed under "Trash".


I can concede that Matačić recording with the NHK is divisive. It is a huge risk to end the Adagio theme with a solo violin and throw all the timpani to the ground at the Scherzo. I personally love it but it is just me. 



realdealblues said:


> Symphony 6 is the easiest of the bunch for me. The only one I will ever need is Klemperer.


I desperately hope you are right. I will see. People says so about his Mahler "Resurrection" and did not harm me at all.


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## TurnaboutVox

To underline the subjectivity involved, I am quite happy with the two recorded versions I have owned for years - Chailly / Concertgebouw (which you haven't reviewed) and Tintner / RSNO (44th/44, "trash"!). Not trash in my view, though.


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## Vaneyes

Granate said:


> *No.5 Results:*
> *Trash*
> 44th: Tintner RNSO
> 43rd: Järvi ROTH
> 42nd: *Horenstein BBC SO*
> 41st: Asahina OPO
> ....


The horror, the horror, the horror.


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## Granate

*Horrifying*



TurnaboutVox said:


> To underline the subjectivity involved, I am quite happy with the two recorded versions I have owned for years -* Chailly / Concertgebouw* (which you haven't reviewed) and Tintner / RSNO (44th/44, "trash"!). Not trash in my view, though.


I new I missed one. It slipped on the rank, sorry. I am sorry it's 35th for me too ...



Vaneyes said:


> The horror, the horror, the horror.


I knew it was going to hurt you when you said it was a huge success. I shut my mouth to avoid voicing all the negative thoughts I had when I was listening to it.


I was just looking for a recording out of 45 to stand out. Many, many conductors stood down pretending there was nothing else in the score than what they conducted.

I don't know if I had to be so harsh. I have no right to infuriate anyone about their personal opinion of recordings. My opinion and taste is as legitimate as yours.

Anyone would try to listen to 45 versions of a same symphony in a row? It worked for me in No.4, not so much in No.5.


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## Becca

Granate said:


> Anyone would try to listen to 45 versions of a same symphony in a row? It worked for me in No.4, not so much in No.5.


I once tried doing it 6 versions of a (non-Bruckner) symphony and found that I quickly got to the point where the larger details seemed to merge into each other and that it was the little things that are relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things which were what i was noticing and remembering. At that point I gave up. I certainly cannot imagine trying to objectively analyze and prioritize 45 versions of anything, let alone a Bruckner symphony.


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## lluissineu

Becca said:


> I once tried doing it 6 versions of a (non-Bruckner) symphony and found that I quickly got to the point where the larger details seemed to merge into each other and that it was the little things that are relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things which were what i was noticing and remembering. At that point I gave up. I certainly cannot imagine trying to objectively analyze and prioritize 45 versions of anything, let alone a Bruckner symphony.


I'm inclined to think the same. Sometimes I've listened to one of my favourite symphonies, Brahms 1st (got about 20 versions). The only thing I'm capable of doing is comparing a short fragment of it in 5 or 6 interpretatons , and even I feel incapable of choosing between the two versions I like the most.


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## realdealblues

Granate said:


> I desperately hope you are right. I will see. People says so about his Mahler "Resurrection" and did not harm me at all.


Klemperer's various recordings of Mahler's 2nd are about as close as I believe you will ever be to hearing how Mahler himself conducted it.


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## Bruckner Anton

My personal favorite is Wand BPO.


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## merlinus

My top two are Jochum/RCO (Dec. 1986) and Eichhorn/BRSO (recorded at St. Florian). Spacious yet intense readings, with excellent sonics and blazing brass.


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## merlinus

Karajan/BPO is also an excellent interpretation. The band can't be beat, and there is lots of momentum yet bringing out melodies.


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## merlinus

Taking a page out of Granate's MO, I listened to Jochum/CGO through headphones yesterday afternoon. Wow, what an amazing performance!!!

Even though I heard some audience coughing, podium rustling. and a few other non-musical sounds, everything about Jochum's interpretation was marvelous, and the playing of the orchestra was outstanding.

Perhaps knowing this was his last time to conduct this symphony and orchestra, that indefinable "something" added immeasurably to the experience.

This has my highest recommendation!


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## DavidA

Karajan / BPO

Dohnanyi / Cleveland is also thrilling


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## merlinus

DavidA said:


> Karajan / BPO


Sadly, this is one of the very few recordings he made of Bruckner that has excellent SQ. Most of the rest are in dire need of re-mastering in order to be listenable. DG made a mess of almost all of them.


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## merlinus

Another superb performance, listened to this afternoon, is Thielemann/MPO. It is a spacious reading, and the sonics are incredible for a CD -- no muddiness nor congestion anywhere, which is the fate of many other recordings of this symphony.

I could hear every instrument, even in the tuttis, and the brass was magnificent. It made a huge difference in my appreciation of the music.


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## merlinus

Just listened to M5 with van Zweden/NRPO. Wow!!! A marvelous performance, with SQ to match. It is even better than Jochum/RCO, and matched only by Eichhorn/BRSO. 

Thielemann/MPO and Karajan/BPO are also excellent, but a bit below these two, for me.


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## merlinus

Just had another listen to Zweden, and my first impressions held up completely. At the very top of B5's, for me.


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## Granate

*After the Round-Up - No.5*

*No.5 Results:*
Trash
68th: Tintner RNSO
67th: Järvi ROTH
66th: Horenstein BBC SO
65th: Asahina OPO

Decent
64th: Knappertsbusch MPO
63rd: Schuricht RSOS
62nd: Haitink WPO
*61st:* Eichhorn BOL
60th: Sawallisch BySO
*59th:* Dohnányi ClO
58th: Eichhorn SOdBR
*57th:* Asahina TMSO
56th: Jochum SKD
55th: Chailly DSOB
*54th:* Masur LGO
*53rd:* Rozhdestvensky USSR
52nd: Kempe MPO
*51st:* Inbal RSOF
50th: Matačić CzPO
49th: Sinopoli SKD
*48th:* Barenboim SKB
*47th:* Beinum RCO
*46th:* Abbado WPO
45th: Barenboim CSO
*44th:* Rögner RSOB
43rd: Maazel SOdBR
*42nd:* Wand MPO
41st: Klemperer WPO

Good
40th: Skrowaczewski RSOS
39th: Schuricht WPO
*38th:* Janowski OSR
37th: Jochum RCO Phillips
36th: Maazel WPO
*35th:* Wand SOdNDR
34th: Solti CSO
*33rd:* Paternostro WPR
*32nd:* Jochum ORTF
31st: Klemperer PO
30th: Celibidache Altus
29th: Wand NHKSO
28th: Wand BPO
*27th:* Kegel LRSO
26th: Harnoncourt WPO
*25th:* Skrowaczewski LPO
24th: Haitink SOdBR
23rd: Gielen SWR SO
22nd: Knappertsbusch WPO
21st: Ormandy PhlO
*20th:* Furtwängler WPO
19th: Haitink RCO
*18th:* Wand DSOB
17th: Young HPO
*16th:* Welser-Möst LPO
15th: Venzago TS (1p)
*14th:* Lim KSO *(2p)*
13th: Wand KRSO (3p)
12th: Zweden NthRSO
11th: Jochum SOdBR
10th: Thielemann MPO
9th: Karajan BPO
8th: Furtwängler BPO (4p)
*7th:* Karajan WSO *(5p)*

Very good
6th: Celibidache RSOS
5th: Matačić NHKSO (6p)
*4th:* Barenboim BPO *(7p)*
3rd: Blomstedt LGO (8p)
*2nd:* Jochum RCO Live 1986 *(9p)*
1st: Celibidache MPO (10p)

Highlights from the round-up:










Bruckner
_*Symphony No.5 in B flat major*_ Live recording
1896 Version, Ed. Schalk
Korean Symphony Orchestra
*Hun-Joung Lim
Decca (2016/2017 Issue Edition)*

_It is lightweight and at the same time daring in its intensity and tempi. This is the first successful recording of the set, using again the controversial unauthorised versions but with a brilliant performance result._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.5 in B flat major*_ Live recording
1878 Original Version, Ed. Haas
Wiener Symphoniker
*Herbert von Karajan
Orfeo (1954/1990 Remastered Edition)*

_In performance standards it's an authentic Karajan work, where he achieves the beauty he is seeking for. The shifts in the Adagio codas are mouth-dropping and become a highlight opposite to Celibidache's way (gentle explosion vs. wandering progression)._
*B-*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.5 in B flat major*_ Live recording
1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak
Berliner Philharmoniker
*Daniel Barenboim
Warner Classics (1992/2006 Reissue Edition)*

_It is a complete display of orchestral strength, saying by the loud timpani, the soft strings in the Adagio or the contrast that the brass provides, with no mistake._
*B-*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.5 in B flat major*_ Live recording
1878 Original Version, Ed. Nowak
Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam
*Eugen Jochum
Tahra (1986)*

_Deep performance with astounding detail in the pace and the strings. There is both lack of weak spots and very emotive features in the score that Jochum is able to create for a last time._
*B*

I revisited the last B5 by Jochum with the RCO and had a great time.


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