# Blind comparison - Mahler 10th - Adagio



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As regulars to this forum will know by know (a) I am a staunch advocate of the Mahler 10th performing editions and (b) I usually prefer complete larger scale works for these comparison. That being said, something a wee bit different this time, the adagio first movement from Mahler's 10th symphony. The logic here is that many conductors choose only to perform the first movement as it was almost completely scored by Mahler prior to his death. So here are links to 4 performances of that movement by well known conductors and orchestras who will remain anonymous for now so that you can listen and comment without being biased by personal opinions about them. As always, if you recognize a performance, please do not announce it and spoil it for others but feel free to PM me. If you want to know the details before I announce them, I will respond to PM requests.

Have fun...

A - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZKXMWkZkv7ddFuMbLfQvBx8h2NupHq0M1by
B - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZtXMWkZvDfW0VomJVHcOKczUwEMgSq3aBPk
C - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZUXMWkZLnEcHwWSQ9jeQMmmcQIJuVL2rNSy
D - https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZvXMWkZexiO621w1QHBWaPQBT3yHY9Iss17


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm in. Just listened to A on the way in. Nice. Just gotta work out which one is Rattle now. Lol. Will do the rest this weekend. Should squeeze B in on the way home.


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## Zama (Dec 10, 2019)

Downloading A... I'll try to listen all of then this weekend. Thanks for the game :tiphat:


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Notes...

"Symphony No. 10 by Gustav Mahler was written in the summer of 1910, and was his final composition. At the time of Mahler's death the composition was substantially complete in the form of a continuous draft, but not fully elaborated or orchestrated, and thus not performable.

Only the first movement is regarded as reasonably complete and performable as Mahler intended. Perhaps as a reflection of the inner turmoil he was undergoing at the time (Mahler knew he had a failing heart and his wife had been unfaithful), the 10th Symphony is arguably his most dissonant work.

Mahler started work on his tenth symphony in July 1910 in Toblach, and ended his efforts in September. He did not complete the orchestral draft before his death at the age of 50 from a streptococcal infection of the blood.

The circumstances surrounding the composition of the Tenth were highly unusual. Mahler was at the height of his compositional powers, but his personal life was in complete disarray, most recently compounded by the revelation that his young wife, Alma, had had an affair with the architect Walter Gropius.

Mahler sought counseling from Sigmund Freud, and dedicated the Eighth Symphony to Alma on the verge of its successful première in Munich in a desperate attempt to repair the breach. The unsettled frame of Mahler's mind found expression in the despairing comments (many addressed to Alma) on the manuscript of the Tenth, and must have influenced its composition: on the final page of the final movement, Mahler wrote, "für dich leben! für dich sterben!" (To live for you! To die for you!) and the exclamation "Almschi!" (his pet name for Alma) underneath the last soaring phrase.

The instrumentation of the symphony cannot be defined precisely, owing to the incompleteness of the orchestral draft. But the short score has occasional indications of instrumentation, and some of the orchestration may be surmised from the three movements of the orchestral draft. Deryck Cooke's completion of the symphony (the one most often performed today) calls for the following orchestra:

Woodwinds

4 flutes (4th doubling piccolo)
4 oboes (4th doubling cor anglais)
3 B♭ and A clarinets
E♭ clarinet (doubling 4th clarinet)
bass clarinet
4 bassoons (3rd and 4th doubling contrabassoons)

Brass

4 horns
4 trumpets
4 trombones
tuba

Percussion

6 timpani (two players)
bass drum
snare drum
large muffled military drum
cymbals
triangle
tam-tam
glockenspiel
xylophone

Strings

2 harps
1st violins
2nd violins
violas
cellos
double basses

Arnold Schoenberg famously expressed the opinion that no one could possibly write a Tenth Symphony without being close to the hereafter.

The very opening of the symphony (which is in the key of F♯ major) maintains a connection with the final movement of the Ninth. A long, bleak Andante melody for violas alone leads to the exposition of the slow first theme in the strings. This theme is developed and another, lighter theme is exposed. The music dies away and the violas repeat the opening theme. With slight variation, the opening adagio is repeated and developed with growing intensity. This also soon dies away, leaving several variations on the lighter second theme. This works up to the climax, an extremely intense variation of the first theme. This restatement culminates in an extraordinary dissonance, after which the piece becomes very quiet."

From the following - "The Making of Mahler's 10th Symphony"

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2004/dec/03/classicalmusicandopera1

"Mahler's Tenth Symphony is one of the most troubling, paradoxical works in musical history. Unfinished at his death, its composition formed part of a legendary, if futile, attempt to ward off mortality. While working on the score, Mahler also underwent a profound personal crisis that led him to consult Freud. The Tenth is consequently the ultimate musical act of agonised self-revelation - though its psychoanalytic intimacy can only be approached through one or more of its completions, none of which may be an accurate reflection of Mahler's final intentions.

Shortly after his daughter Maria's death, Mahler was diagnosed with a potentially fatal heart condition. Superstitious, he fretted about the significance of symphonic numerology. Beethoven died after writing his Ninth; Bruckner died while writing his. Mahler had just completed his Eighth. Death could perhaps be cheated, if his next symphony was named rather than numbered - Das Lied von der Erde. "When he was writing his next symphony, which he called the Ninth," Alma writes, "he said to me, 'Actually, of course it's the Tenth.' Finally when he was composing the Tenth, he said, 'Now the danger is past.' Yet he did not live to see the Ninth performed, or to finish the Tenth."

A second interesting article - "Mahler's Unfinished Symphony"

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/12/mahlers-unfinished-symphony/377362/

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The easy part is guessing that one of the selections will be conducted by Sir Simon Rattle... the difficult part will be deciding which of the two she'll choose... Bournemouth or Berlin? Both? :lol:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Duncan said:


> The easy part is guessing that one of the selections will be conducted by Sir Simon Rattle... the difficult part will be deciding which of the two she'll choose... Bournemouth or Berlin? Both? :lol:


Thank you for the notes Duncan  As to Rattle ... maybe none of them? There were plenty of choices and you never can tell with me


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Oh well, when it comes to confusing, no, making it interesting for us, Becca is an expert so I bet she would include neither the Berlin nor the Bournemouth recording, but instead some live recording of Rattle that none of us knows about; that is, if she would include a Rattle recording at all! But then, perhaps she would simply throw a straight ball when we all expect a curve ball! Am I making sense?

In recent years, the more I listen to the Ninth, I've found it more and more difficult to come to terms with its ending, the resignation into oblivion. I can't help feeling that, in the Tenth, Mahler came out of the abyss, went through hell, and finally found love that triumphed over death. Some say the ending of the Tenth is a proper goodbye to life, or something along that line. Fair enough, in any case, for me it is a much more life-affirming symphony.

I've gone through A.

Straight, no excess, no sentimentality, letting the music do the talking, and obviously with an A-list orchestra. 

I think I know who this conductor is. Have to admit I'm usually not crazy about his Mahler, but listening to this Adagio on its own, I realised he didn't do the one thing that I usually don't like in an Adagio-only recording - a conductor trying too hard to make a complete symphony out of this single movement - therefore, um, I like A. Now the problem is, I want to hear also the subsequent movements, but if I'm right who this is, he never recorded the whole Tenth. Now I feel defeated.

I'll see how far I can go with the rest. Sorry I don't exactly feel motivated right now. Just noticed B's timing. It looks scary. Not the slowest ever, for sure. I'll see how far I can go.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

FWIW, B did not feel slow to me.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I was going to listen to B on the way home today but had to give work colleague a lift so that didn't happen.. However, I have skipped thru B-D and it seems all these performances are live. Ive only heard A all the way thru and agree with Kiki that it's a very unsentimental account which I rather like. It reminds me very much of a conductor whose cycle is hit and miss for me but I like this one, although I find the strings a bit wiry at times (I'm guessing that's just the recording tho). Very good orchestra. On my quick skip thru C caught my ear and ill probably listen to that one next.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I've listened to as many performing versions as I can get hold of, and a bunch of Cooke's going all the way back to the first (with Ormandy). I don't have a favorite Adagio, but reiterate what I have said before: The Tenth's adagio is nearly fool proof. I don't think I've ever heard a performance that I would consider "bad."


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Upon the first close hearing -

This is going to be genuinely difficult - first-rate performances and recordings from start to finish... 

The following comments are intended to apply to all four of the recordings except where noted -

First-tier conductors and orchestras - I have no doubt that each of the four are the subjects of rave reviews and are multiple award-winning recordings.

Each of the four has been the recipient of excellent recording/mastering - clear and distinct separation of orchestral elements without sectional blurring - crystal clear - each of the instruments listed above in the printed instrumentation found in post # 4 is clearly audible and readily identifiable. 

Superb utilization of dynamics - each conductor has mastery of both the composition and the respective orchestra.

Brass is bright without being harsh - woodwinds expressive and brought slightly forward in the mastering mix - percussion is powerful but never overwhelming - strings are beautifully balanced - full sounding without crossing over the line to "lush"...

I would unhesitatingly recommend any of the four but I find myself ever so slightly drawn more to D.) as there seems to be a rather pronounced sense of "precision" in the performance which is both reminiscent and characteristic of one of my favourites. I would like to think that I may have some idea as to the identity of conductors A.), B.), and D.) but C.) in all honesty would be nothing more than a guess at best. 

I will listen to them a second time and render a final verdict but if forced to provide a ranking under duress my preliminary order would be - 

1. D).

2. A).

3. C.) 

4. B.)

with the added caveat that a second listen could change the above order with A.) and C.) reversing order but as stated at the beginning the recordings are of sufficient merit that I'm fairly certain that B.) although listed fourth may have won a Grammy Award for "Classical Album of the Year".

And a sincere "well done, once again, my friend" to Becca for going above and beyond the call...

:tiphat:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Having listened to them all i find all of them very enjoyable in one way or another.

A - straightforward and precise. Recording is a little on the shrill side but the performance is beautifully controlled. Good orchestra. 
B - broader than most but its a very beautiful recording. I just would have preferred a little more pace but it does sound good. We'll rounded sound. Sou ds very like a 10th I have by someone else but in comparison it is different. 
C - more straightforward, like A but there's a real sense of alertness that I find highly attractive.
D - This one has a sound world that the others don't that make it my fave here. Orchestra sound sumptuous at times and have a unity that make this a keeper. If I haven't got this (I think I have) I will be getting it.

So my rank is D, C, A, B

Nice Blindcom, Becca. I'll send you a PM with my guesses but I don't think I'll get any of these. Listening to my recordings and comparing them to yours some sound very similar but there are subtle differences. Who knows, I may be correct. Btw, all these are very good adagios. There's none I dislike or even find average.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

So far I have been quite intrigued by the posts and PMs regarding this comparison, I hope to see more over the weekend.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I managed to go through B and D after A.

B is slow, but I think it works. It is smooth, beautiful and expressive. There is one moment of suspicious sentimentality at 18:07 that bugs me the first time I heard it, and I kept rewinding back to that moment to listen again to check if I was imagining it. Oh boy, I hope this is not OCD.

D is also expressive, and it seems to have more contrast in both dynamics and tempi. There are also a few more edges (not a bad thing, just different from B). And the conductor is probably one of those who are obsessed with pianissimo that has got a lot of details instead of just being quiet.

Both have moments where they risk being sentimental, but I'm not too bothered by that. These two sound like live performances. No idea who the performers are. They do remind me of the likes of two American conductors in recent times whose Mahler are highly regarded, but I have very few of their Mahler recordings and no Adagio, so this is just an impression. I looked through my collection to see if any name ringed a bell. Another North American conductor's name popped up with a beautiful and expressive reading; also a British conductor who's not so British according to the media. Well I give up. I don't know who B and D are. I certainly don't have them.

I'm not sure if I'll have time to go through C. If I don't, never mind about me, please go ahead with revealing the identities.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Is there anyone else participating in this comparison?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I'm currently in the midst of listening to all Mahler's works in chronological order, and won't get to the 10th until the end of the week. So I'll pass on this one, but thanks!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As nobody else has spoken up, here are the details. All of them are from live performances...

A - Pierre Boulez / Cleveland Orchestra
B - Daniel Harding / Berlin Philharmonic
C - Michael Sanderling / SWR Symphony
D - Simon Rattle / London Symphony

I will leave them on my cloud site for anyone else who wants to listen and perhaps comment.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Thanks Becca for the answers! 

I think the Boulez (A) is pretty obvious. 

The beauty in B & D at first reminded me of Maazel but I didn't hear his idiosyncrasy, then MTT but without his understatement. 

When I looked through my collection for names, Nézet-Séguin and Harding were two names that reminded me of a similar kind of beauty. In fact, Harding's Vienna Tenth on DG is one of my favourite versions. I am a bit surprised that B, his Berlin version, presumably from DCH, is almost 3 mins slower. It still works, but I much prefer his Vienna version. 

On the other hand, there is no way I could have guessed D is Rattle. I assume it is a recent live recording. Has he finally given up holding back everything until the final note of the piece (which incidentally is in the Finale not the Adagio)? :lol: Seriously, he didn't do that in his recent Berlin Mahler 6, my current favourite version of that work. D is very good indeed, seriously. Is this a 5-mvt Tenth? (Can't imagine him doing an Adagio-only Tenth!) I hope LSO would issue it on CD/blu-ray. I will definitely buy it.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

He did the entire 10th in one of his LSO concerts last year (?) and all of it had been on YouTube but for some reason only the 1st movement is now available. Maybe it's a teaser for an upcoming LSO Live release?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

This blindcom goes to show (again) that Rattle's recordings (particularly those in the past 5 years) are much better than many people are led to believe. He has consistently finished at the top of these comparisons yet the age-old attitudes to him still exist here and in the media. Perhaps some like to believe these stereoypes. Personally I just listen to recordings with no pre-conceived notion. I suggest that the 'micromanagement' stereotype should now be consigned to the TC dustbin (along with the silly assertion that all Karajan's recordings are 'slick and smooth'). 

I dunno about you, Becca, but I'm going to give making these blindcoms a bit of a rest for now as it takes an awful lot of time creating these (transposing, organising, removing tags & cover art, uploading, posting a thead, etc). Anyhoo i still have a Beethoven cycle review to post. Ill do that in the next few days.


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