# Help me with Ravel!



## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I never thought I'd be the one to start one of these threads, for I'm always the person to scoff at others who can't 'understand' great composers. This being that my comprehension/appreciation rate of other composers has thus far had a perfect score, ranging from Corelli to Carter. But for the first time, I have to say that I cannot get into a composer. Ravel. 

I hate his string quartet, a blatant ripoff of the Debussy (and I think I hate it more because everyone seems to love the Ravel and disregard the Debussy). Daphnis and Chloe is nice and solidly written, but really just a mesh of Debussy and Stravinsky. Bolero I'll admit is lots of fun, but my ego can't handle having to say my favorite Ravel piece is 'Bolero.' 

So help! What pieces should I listen to, and in any particular order? And any bits of advice as to what I should be listening for would be welcome... cause I'm tired of listening to rehashed Debussy.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

One of the keys to Ravel is how good his orchestration is. If you love colour in music, it's hard to do better. 

For solo piano music, try "Gaspard de la nuit". "Miroirs" and "Jeux d'eau".

For orchestral music, try "Rapsodie espagnole" and "La valse". The former was an inspiration for Debussy's "Iberia" IMO. The latter is an amazing tone poem that seems to show the disintegration of German music - kind of a nightmarish "Der Rosenkavalier".

The two piano concertos are very different. The Concerto for the Left Hand is lush, Romantic music, while the G major concerto is delightfully jazzy.

The best neoclassical music ever written IMO is Le Tombeau de Couperin. The piano version has a few more movements to it than the orchestral version.

There's so much more - two short operas, the Mother Goose suite, Introduction and Allegro, song cycle Scheherezade..,


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

If you don't like Ravel, then you probably haven't heard:

Piano Concerto in G (especially the gorgeous second movement)
Piano Trio
Gaspard de la Nuit (one of the most harmonically advanced pieces you'll ever find)
Piano Concerto for the Left Hand
Miroir

And these are just his piano works. Daphnis and Chloe, just a mesh of Debussy and Stravinsky? Really? You do know he is one of the most creative and innovative orchestrators of all time, right?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, I think part of the problem might be that you are just thinking of him as rehashed Debussy... However if you really analyze this, I think you'll realize its a false idea, because if it were true you'd probably like Ravel more (since you like Debussy a lot). The truth is the composers though similar are also very different in ways. Just because someone likes one does not automatically mean they will be drawn to the other. Beneath the exteriors Debussy's music is much freer and looser than Ravel. Its almost like comparing an improvised solo (Debussy) to a written solo (Ravel), there can be different strengths and weaknesses to either approach. I love the exacting precision of Ravel's approach and the breath taking modernly bright colors. I get generally much brighter colors from Ravel's music in my 'minds eye' and much darker shades and colors (not necessarily emotions) with Debussy's music.

As far as the String Quartets in my opinion the second movement of Ravel's String Quartet is in another stratosphere, and different than anything Debussy or Stravinsky ever wrote. Debussy's Quartet has no moments that sound like this. In my mind you are comparing two very different pieces of music here, and I think most would agree Ravel surpassed Debussy in this area.

Ravel's piano music is also very distinctive and different than Debussy. His ideas to me feel more refined and precise, where Debussy wanders to and fro with the breeze. Again, there are advantages to either approach. If you've listened to pieces like Jeux D'eau, Miroirs, Le Tombeau De Couperin, and Gaspard De La Nuit, and still aren't 'getting him', than perhaps Ravel is just not the composer for you, because in my mind his genius here is as clear as it is in any other form.

I'd also suggest the Piano Trio if you haven't already heard it. Aside from this just try and approach Ravel on his own terms as a unique composer. A very clever one, but not necessarily for everybody and no composer is really.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd have to kind of agree with the subtext of what Nix is saying, that Debussy's ways of doing things sound (to me) kind of less conventional (or predictable?) than Ravel's. I think Debussy's _Jeux_ kind of "takes the cake" in regards to probably being more unique than any of the "big three" ballets done in the 1910's - the other two being Ravel's _Daphnis_ & Stravinsky's_ Rite of Spring_. But I'm kind of splitting hairs here for sure, but personally I find _Jeux_ to be an absolute gold-mine of riches, the other two have not yielded half as much insight & fresh engagement for me personally (but all three are undoubtedly "essential" works, imo, highly enjoyable & engaging in their own right).

A critic of the time called Debussy's style something like being luscious on the surface but simultaneously being as "hard as iron" underneath that lustrous surface. Maybe that was a matter of intellecutalising matters too much, but I can kind of see what the man was getting at. I would say that, rather than being literally "rehashed Debussy," Ravel was kind of tapping in to the more elegant or refined aspects of the older composer's ideas, which clearly stimulated him to some degrees. The relationship (& similarity) between Debussy & Ravel is much like that between Haydn & Mozart, I think. One was older, the other younger, & there was a cross-fertilisation of ideas between them. But on an instinctive level, I feel a similar difference between Haydn & Mozart - the former speaks to me with a kind of robust "solidity," the latter with a kind of more complexity, ornateness ("Too many notes" as Emperor Joseph said?). I must say that I "connect" more with things like Haydn's _Keyboard Concerto in D _than any of Mozart's keyboard concertos, but that's just my inclination & it's hard for me to express exactly why this is. In any case, Haydn apparently stopped writing keyboard concertos after hearing one of Mozart's ones & saying that the younger guy far outdid him in this specific department in many ways. Similarly, Debussy praised Ravel for "having the finest ear that ever existed." So there you go, although us listeners and "fans" tend to place one above the other, what talks to me about the actual relationship between these guys is an attitude of huge respect and mutual admiration.

Anyway, if you want some Ravel with more "bite" then I second what member Ravellian has suggested above - the _*Piano Concerto in G*_ & _*Gaspard de la nuit*._ The concerto's outer movts. sound nothing like Debussy, they have this brash jazzy vigour (but maybe a fair dash of Debussy's whimsical humour is there?). Those two movts. speak more to the "vibe" of Gershwin than Debussy. But, as Ravellian notes, the second (slow) movt. is wonderful as well, for many people it's their favourite part of this work. As for _Gaspard_, this is quite a dark work in many respects, & quite "modernist" in some ways. The haunting siren movement can be quite chilling in the right hands, a mixture reflecting the poetry's obsession with sex & death. The siren's song is heard, as are the emotions of the guy who wants to jump in the lake & cavort with her, but he pulls back so as not to risk death. An amazing piece, imo, & the other two movts. are no less good.

Another Ravel work that has more "chops" is the* Sonata for Violin & Viola. *I heard more similarities here with Bartok, not much of a hint of Debussy. Quite dissonant, & maybe even a fair hint of aggro. It's an obscure work & I heard it on a friend's disc on the DGG label with the Ensemble Wien-Berlin under Wolfram Christ. I'm not sure if it's still available, but it's got some other Ravel works coupled with a fair amount of Debussy (both of their chamber works, incl. Debussy's wonderful _Chansons de Bilitis _- with actor Catherine Deneuve narrating - kind of like a French "impressionist" precursor to Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire_, although Debussy uses straight speech, not speech-song like Schoenberg did)...


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks for the responses, I'll give those works a try. Interesting too that you mention similarities with the relationship of Haydn and Mozart, since I love both Haydn and Mozart... hopefully I can find a love for these two that is just as compatible.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I second the suggestions of La Valse and the song cycle Sheherazade (orchestrated version). I love both composers, but Debussy all in all a bit more.


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## jaimsilva (Jun 1, 2011)

I will not add anything new to what was previously said, anyway let me tell you the works of Ravel that I like more:

both Piano concertos - try: Zimermann with Boulez

Pavane pour une infante defunte
Daphnis et Chloé
La valse
Ma mère l'oye
Le tombeau de Couperin

(you have good interpretations of these by: Paavo Järvi, Kent Nagano, Boulez and Abbado, for instance, or if you can get "older" recordings by Ansermet or Monteux)


Gaspard de la nuit - Argerich recording is fabulous
Valses nobles et sentimentales
Miroirs
(there are very good recordings of his piano music by Gieseking, Pascal Rogé, Thibaudet, Lortie and Angela Hewitt)

Sheherazade - with Régine Crespin and Ansermet or with Anne-Sophie von Otter and Boulez are two exceptional recordings


Enjoy!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

i'm very fascinated by his chansons madecasses, i have to listen many of his works but i think that especially Aoua is one of the more bold pieces he composed


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

norman bates said:


> i'm very fascinated by his chansons madecasses, i have to listen many of his works but i think that especially Aoua is one of the more bold pieces he composed


I've just purchased that work on disc recently, but have still to listen to it. What you say about it being "bold" agrees with what I've read about this piece. Being a song-cycle with chamber accompaniment, it was one of the many works by composers to be influenced by Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire _(a fav work of mine, what Stravinsky called "the solar plexus of c20th music."). Apparently Ravel's individual "take" on Schoenberg's ideas is just as harmonically adventurous as the "original" in many ways...


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Does anyone have any thoughts on L'enfant et Les Sortileges? I haven't taken much time with it, but connoisseurs say it's his best work.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

This right here sold me on Ravel.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Manxfeeder said:


> Does anyone have any thoughts on L'enfant et Les Sortileges? I haven't taken much time with it, but connoisseurs say it's his best work.


I actually haven't yet heard this or chansons madecasses by Ravel, or Jeux by Debussy. I was on a huge Ravel and Debussy kick when I first started posting here, then I got sidetracked. Now it looks like I have more gems to uncover (lucky me). Thanks for the suggestions Manxfeeder, Sid James and Norman Bates.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

tdc said:


> I actually haven't yet heard...or Jeux by Debussy...Thanks for the suggestions...Sid James...


Your very welcome. & I second you in esp. thanking norman bates in reminding me of Ravel's Chansons, I'll have to get to my recently purchased recording of it sometime soon (so many things!).

BTW - If _Jeux_ ends up rocking your boat, you may wish to check out the two other late ballets Debussy composed. They are in similar "modern" style, but are only in solo piano form (he didn't get to orchestrating them). I've heard them on radio a while back, and they sounded interesting. I think they're on a BIS disc, if my memory is correct??? Anyway, it's maybe worth checking out if you end up having that kind of "kick" again...


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