# That man called Karlheinz Stockhausen



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

What do you think about his works? For some weird reason, I like his stuff very much. I'm an intelligent electronic music fan so I find his compositions very interesting.


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## Aeneas (Jul 30, 2016)

I find his works really interesting, but sometimes his weird stuff - as you said - it's too much weird for me .-.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> What do you think about his works? For some weird reason, I like his stuff very much. I'm an intelligent electronic music fan so I find his compositions very interesting.


I think he was a genius, it just seems obvious to me that pieces like Kontra-Punkte, Zeitmasze, Momente, Stimmung, all the Klavierstucke, (including after 11), Mantra, Stimmung, telemusic, Natürliche Dauern and Hymnen are the product of a real creative genius. I even like Klang. The Licht music I haven't explored so much (too Wagnerian maybe, though I've enjoyed the Licht Klavierstucke)


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2016)

A major, ground-breaking composer who will inhabit the music text books for at least several hundred more years, if not beyond.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

He was fantastic, in every way. Too bad his music is not more readily available, except direct for much of it.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

I've heard all the essentials- Gesang der Junglinge, Kontakte, Sirius, Helicopter Quartet, Gruppen, Klavierstucke, etc.

Bleh.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

What a legacy!

Let's just hope people of the future won't be too busy crafting their own legacies for nebulous posterity and not spending enough time looking at people of the _past _who were making legacies designed specifically for them to appreciate.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I've tried to get into Stockhausen a couple times. So far, it's like eggs on teflon.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

_Kontakte_ and _Mantra_ are among my all-time favorites of postwar music. _Gruppen_ is good too.

His output is so big, though, and I don't have a good handle on it.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Listening to Mantra. As with so much music, there are passages that I find to be strong, interesting things, but also a lot of it that does nothing much for me. Could it be better, or could I be a better listener? I don't know, to be honest. This isn't the kind of music I can confidently evaluate beyond "this sounds too ordinary" or "I like this but not this" or "I wish this was more consistent in terms of mood".


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Composers have a tendency to become a parody of themselves.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I love his early works; Gruppen, Telemusik, Gesang der Junglinge, the Klavierstucke...all opening up those possibilities of sound and space explored by the Darmstadt avant-garde with aplomb. What I've heard of the Licht operas sounds overextended and on the silly side, although it all starts off promisingly.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Aeneas said:


> I find his works really interesting, but sometimes his weird stuff - as you said - it's too much weird for me .-.


Minus the first 5 words


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

I'm still getting to know his catalogue, I've been doing so for a long time. I really like the Klavierstucke cycle, I've listened to that many times. I haven't heard all of Licht but it is one of the most scarily genius Masterworks of all time, on par with the Ring-cycle but maybe even better. The Zodiac melodies are one of my favourite things, especially the piano version. There are plenty of awesome pieces (including the early ones), like Formel, Adieu, Kruezspiel, Mantra, Gruppen, the electronic works including Oktophonie. 
His music is an immersive world, really incomparable to any other composers. Truly a great! :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Xenakiboy said:


> I'm still getting to know his catalogue, I've been doing so for a long time. I really like the Klavierstucke cycle, I've listened to that many times. I haven't heard all of Licht but it is one of the most scarily genius Masterworks of all time, on par with the Ring-cycle but maybe even better. The Zodiac melodies are one of my favourite things, especially the piano version. There are plenty of awesome pieces (including the early ones), like Formel, Adieu, Kruezspiel, Mantra, Gruppen, the electronic works including Oktophonie.
> His music is an immersive world, really incomparable to any other composers. Truly a great! :tiphat:


Always a matter of taste :angel:


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

But my biggest negative is *The price of his CDs* What the hell man!!


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

I think it'll be funny if people eventually find it incomprehensible that his work in the '50s and '60s was ever considered more important than Stravinsky's from the same time



Xenakiboy said:


> But my biggest negative is *The price of his CDs* What the hell man!!


One of at least several things La Monte Young seems to have learned from him.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Glenn Gould offers his unique perspective on Karlheinz...


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## itegil (Jul 31, 2016)

He vuz a card, that Mr. Gould.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Stockhausen was probably the most important composer to organize sound categories in composition. But whereas the second Viennese triumvirate had pitch and timbre, Stockhausen considered first rhythm, attack, dynamic (in the short total-serialist phase) but then, in the bulk of his work, systematized the pitch-noise continuum. His pieces then become an exploration of sound attributes explored through various sorts of systems, some of them aleatoric (like in Plus-Minus). Pieces like Kontakte, Gruppen, and Mantra explore the gamut of note-rhythm-pattern-pitch-timbre-noise. Gruppen, in particular, looks at the rhythmic dissonance carried by orchestral groups: certain parts have a rhythmic consonance and clarity, but other parts have a high level of rhythmic dissonance nearing noise, intentionally so. Mantra has another consonance-dissonance stratification through ring-modulation of the pianos: ring modulation, depending on the second pitch one is ring modulating with, can give the pianos a metallic timbre, or completely wash out the piano sound into an ethereal float. And although Stockhausen was obviously inspired by second Viennese music and the musique concrete of Pierre Schaeffer, what he actually did in aural affect went far beyond both.

And yes, I would prefer the pre-Licht works, although some parts of Licht and Klang are as good as his earlier works and even push things further: check out Cosmic Pulses, a movement from Klang.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Glenn Gould offers his unique perspective on Karlheinz...


Sorry can't read the subtitles, kidding do you think he's serious?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think Gould enjoyed poking fun at pretensions. And in the world of classical music, there are plenty of those.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Stockhausen was probably the most important composer to organize sound categories in composition. But whereas the second Viennese triumvirate had pitch and timbre, Stockhausen considered first rhythm, attack, dynamic (in the short total-serialist phase) but then, in the bulk of his work, systematized the pitch-noise continuum. His pieces then become an exploration of sound attributes explored through various sorts of systems, some of them aleatoric (like in Plus-Minus). Pieces like Kontakte, Gruppen, and Mantra explore the gamut of note-rhythm-pattern-pitch-timbre-noise. Gruppen, in particular, looks at the rhythmic dissonance carried by orchestral groups: certain parts have a rhythmic consonance and clarity, but other parts have a high level of rhythmic dissonance nearing noise, intentionally so. Mantra has another consonance-dissonance stratification through ring-modulation of the pianos: ring modulation, depending on the second pitch one is ring modulating with, can give the pianos a metallic timbre, or completely wash out the piano sound into an ethereal float. And although Stockhausen was obviously inspired by second Viennese music and the musique concrete of Pierre Schaeffer, what he actually did in aural affect went far beyond both.


Did it, though? Like, okay, he "organized" everything, but who cares, and does he actually achieve a greater - or, heck, equal - variety of confluences of harmony, rhythm, attack, dynamic than Erwartung or Pierrot lunaire (or for that matter than La mer)?

An argument I find interesting is Robin Maconie's, that manipulating tape makes you think about music differently and that Stockhausen was a pioneer in that respect: https://books.google.at/books?id=vUaSBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA70

And I have to admit, as far as I know, the world had never before heard anything quite like the famous passing around of chords by the brass on three sides toward the end of Gruppen.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2016)

PresenTense said:


> I'm an intelligent electronic music fan so I find his compositions very interesting.


Well, I thought I was too, until I considered your logic.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I think Gould enjoyed poking fun at pretensions. And in the world of classical music, there are plenty of those.


Gould's a bit more pretentious than Stockhausen I think.


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## Hildadam Bingor (May 7, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Gould's a bit more pretentious than Stockhausen I think.


I think they're about equally full of s---.

On the other hand, Gould never asked anybody to serve his art by operating 4 high emissions aircraft.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Hildadam Bingor said:


> I think they're about equally full of s---.
> 
> On the other hand, Gould never asked anybody to serve his art by operating 4 high emissions aircraft.


I'd love for someone to write a good biography of Stockhausen. It's certainly true that he went through a period of doing very effective publicity stunts - aliens, helicopters etc. It's obviously mediagenic though I don't think it's so artistically interesting, maybe I'm wrong.

Did anyone here know Stockhausen? I met him once in a party in London after a turbulent performance of Donnerstag aus Licht, he seemed innocent somehow, anyway that was my impression.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Xenakiboy said:


> But my biggest negative is *The price of his CDs* What the hell man!!


Has anyone here ever purchased one (or more) of the 106 volumes (!) of the Stockhausen Edition, sold directly by the Stockhausen-Verlag in Germany?
http://www.stockhausencds.com/
http://www.stockhausen-verlag.com/

I couldn't find any info on the performers, recording dates, reconding venues (studio/live?), etc... and what about the recording quality?
I really don't understand why they give no details at all, just the titles of the works... and with those prices!

BTW I met him once years ago in a public conference, just before the premiere of Samstag aus Licht. He looked like more an engineer than a composer/musician.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

GioCar said:


> Has anyone here ever purchased one (or more) of the 106 volumes (!) of the Stockhausen Edition, sold directly by the Stockhausen-Verlag in Germany?
> http://www.stockhausencds.com/
> http://www.stockhausen-verlag.com/
> 
> ...


I have quite a few of them, all very satisfactory apart from Momente (i don't think he uses the best edition - I can't remember the details but there are some revisions. )


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

GioCar said:


> Has anyone here ever purchased one (or more) of the 106 volumes (!) of the Stockhausen Edition, sold directly by the Stockhausen-Verlag in Germany?


Yes - I've got them all. The sound quality is excellent, and the CD booklets are incredibly detailed, often with lavish illustrations and photographs. As well as the usual jewel-case booklet, _Momente_ comes with a separate "LP-sized" libretto, 33 pages long.

I've also got some of the Study CDs and "Text CDs", the latter comprising lectures by Stockhausen on various subjects.

As you might guess, I don't like Stockhausen at all


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> What do you think about his works? For some weird reason, I like his stuff very much. I'm an intelligent electronic music fan so I find his compositions very interesting.


I find his work experimental, meaning he was was more a composer interested in experimenting with new sounds. And electro-acoustic music is the best way to do that. The sounds made can be endless.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Yes - I've got them all. The sound quality is excellent, and the CD booklets are incredibly detailed, often with lavish illustrations and photographs. As well as the usual jewel-case booklet, _Momente_ comes with a separate "LP-sized" libretto, 33 pages long.
> 
> I've also got some of the Study CDs and "Text CDs", the latter comprising lectures by Stockhausen on various subjects.
> 
> As you might guess, I don't like Stockhausen at all


Wow! did they make a special price for you? If you take them one by one, it would be more than €3,000...
Anyway I'd have hoped in a different answer. Now you are tempting me ...


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

GioCar said:


> Wow! did they make a special price for you? If you take them one by one, it would be more than €3,000...


I didn't get a special price, but I spread the cost by collecting the CDs over several years, so I didn't really notice. I'd sometimes buy three or four works at once if the GBP/Euro exchange rate was good.

I prioritised which recordings I'd purchase but, by the time I'd bought my priority 1s and 2s, I thought I might as well get the others. As a long-standing Wagnerian, I caught the "completist" bug decades ago, so I guess it was inevitable that I'd go on to finish the set.

I kept a running total (sad, I know) and the precise amount comes to £3,265... and 15 pence. Given today's relatively dodgy status of the £ vs the € it would probably cost rather more, so I evidently bought at the right time!


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Interesting sound world but not my cup of tea.


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