# How do you find Schumann's symphonies?



## Enthusiast

I'm sorry if this has been done before but I couldn't find a recent thread on the subject. I am quite a big Schumann fan. I accept that not all of his works were successes but I really love the symphonies - almost as much as those of Beethoven and Brahms. I am not musically trained or educated but on the basis of my listening I have long been confused by all the criticism of his orchestration and symphonic writing. I have heard bad performances but have perhaps been lucky in hearing mostly good ones that really fire me up! There are so many good recordings, many taking markedly different approaches from each other - I especially love those of Sawallisch, Zinman, Kubelik and Celibidache - and I am increasingly baffled by the oft repeated put-downs of this music. 

If I had one criticism of the symphonies as a group it is that I find it hard to identify which is which when I hear a small part of one. I never have this trouble with the symphonies of Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Sibelius, Mahler or Brahms. It is almost as if the glorious music that is in Schumann's symphonies could be swapped around between the works and they would still work. Is this my uneducated way of noticing that there is something lacking in Schumann's symphonic writing? It isn't that I find the symphonies to be merely suites of music - I do find them satisfying and whole and symphonic - but they don't each seem to have a distinctive flavour of their own.


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## Sloe

I love them.
I heard his second symphony a few days ago and it was the highpoint of the week.


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## Art Rock

They're OK. Nowhere near the top, but solid in the middle. I like the 3d best.


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## Pugg

I love them also, for a few $ / € or UK pound , you can have them from Bernstein.
Exciting listening.


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## Strange Magic

I love 'em all. Schumann is often underrated as a symphonist, but not in my world.


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## Triplets

I have been listening to them for decades but they really 'clicked' for me a few years ago and I started buying multiple sets.
I like the Karajan, Barenboim, and Szell sets best.


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## millionrainbows

This is the original unrevised version of the Symphony #4 in D minor Op. 120. Really excellent.


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## D Smith

I love Schumann's symphonies (and love his piano music even more). I do think the whole underrated thing is not true so much anymore and his talents widely appreciated. I listen to Bernstein and Szell's recordings the most and the third is my favourite.


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## Haydn man

To answer your question directly, I find Schumann between Schubert and Shostakovich in my collection

But slightly more seriously I adore his Symphonies and rate them highly as others in this thread do


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## satoru

When we were playing around with Shcumann's symphony in a student orchestra, I had a feeling that no matter how hard I blew my breath into my instrument, no note ever could leave it. Later I learned that feeling was caused by the orchestration. Overlaying instruments with their not-the-best range of notes in ff, for example. Many conductors chose to adapt some changes/rearrangements in orchestration to overcome this problem. Sawallisch was one of them. The whole orchestra sounded muffled with Schumann's original score, but I recently started to think that maybe that sound was what Schumann wanted. Not an effective use of instruments in an orchestra, but if that is what the composer wants?? Now, I listen to those symphonies with a different perspective and enjoy both versions. By the way, my play count on the Sawallisch set has reached 24.


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## KenOC

Haydn man said:


> To answer your question directly, I find Schumann between Schubert and Shostakovich in my collection


Reminds me of the old joke.

Waiter: "How did you find your steak, sir?"
Diner: "Quite simple, really. I moved a pea and there it was."


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## Olias

I've performed Schumann's 1st a few times (I'm a hornist) so I have a sentimental attachment to it. I really didn't appreciate the others until I explored Bernstein's recordings. Bernstein REALLY loved Schumann's symphonies and did a few lectures on them. I found this talk he did on Schumann's 2nd:






His cycle is on a 2 CD set for DG:

https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-4-S...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1469310056&sr=8-1


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## Orfeo

Strange Magic said:


> I love 'em all. Schumann is often underrated as a symphonist, but not in my world.


I ditto that. I even like the Symphony in G minor ("Zwickau") and the Overture, Scherzo, and Finale, which is kind of the 3/4 symphony sans the first movement.

He reigns supreme as a piano composer, but pretty darn good for the orchestra (and not too bad for the theatre).


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## Chronochromie

Some of the finest symphonies from the Romantic era imo, I prefer the 2nd and 3rd to any by Mendelssohn, Dvorak or Tchaikovsky. Gardiner's recordings were revelatory to me.


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## bz3

Love them all but especially the 3rd. As a symphonist he's among any not named Beethoven or Brahms for me. I never tire of any of them, in fact I might put on 4 right now. Schumann is the one composer I came to with relatively lesser expectations for a great composer, but whom I still feel is underrated for his contributions in spite of his stature as among the greats.


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## BoggyB

I like the _Feierlich_ movement from his 3rd symphony, which I keep in the same drawer as the finale of Tchaikovsky's last symphony. But for me, however, there is nothing more than this symphonically. Nothing.


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## chesapeake bay

Olias said:


> I've performed Schumann's 1st a few times (I'm a hornist) so I have a sentimental attachment to it. I really didn't appreciate the others until I explored Bernstein's recordings. Bernstein REALLY loved Schumann's symphonies and did a few lectures on them. I found this talk he did on Schumann's 2nd:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His cycle is on a 2 CD set for DG:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Schumann-4-S...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1469310056&sr=8-1


Always nice to listen to Bernstein, thanks for posting that video link. Have you listened to his earlier NYP recording of Schumann? I'm wondering if I should get that one.


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## Pugg

chesapeake bay said:


> Always nice to listen to Bernstein, thanks for posting that video link. Have you listened to his earlier NYP recording of Schumann? I'm wondering if I should get that one.


Someone ask me that once, turned out that NYP is only on download or the big Bernstein box on Sony.


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## jburde

I'm unfamiliar with #1 and 2 but I've enjoyed 3 and even had the pleasure of playing #4 (1851 version).


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## chesapeake bay

Pugg said:


> Someone ask me that once, turned out that NYP is only on download or the big Bernstein box on Sony.


....or....LP


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## Pugg

chesapeake bay said:


> ....or....LP


That could be a possibility.. there are a few on eBay .


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## maudia

Of course Renana is the best, but I always enjoy listen to the 4th.


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## chesapeake bay

Pugg said:


> That could be a possibility.. there are a few on eBay .


It's possible I bought one already


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## mmsbls

I've also been a bit surprised by the criticism, but I think most such criticism simply indicates that the criticizer does not view Schumann's symphonies as among the greatest. I personally don't enjoy them quite as much as several others' symphonies, but I still love all of them. I especially like the 3rd and 4th.


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## jim prideaux

The 2nd has established itself as one of my favourite symphonies-while I really enjoy all four I frequently find myself turning to the 2nd and awaiting with a kind of excitement the progression to the final movement, a piece of music which always brings a sense of elation!

Initial introduction courtesy of the Zinman Tonhalle recordings followed by a predictable path through Sawallisch,Gardiner and Szell I have also even spent time with the Chailly recordings of the Mahler re-orchestrations.........Oramo recorded a fine set with the Royal Stockholm that appear to have received little acknowledgement......

realised now that it may be a while ( 2 weeks) since I listened to one of the symphonies so.......ending the evening with the 2nd!


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## jim prideaux

jim prideaux said:


> The 2nd has established itself as one of my favourite symphonies-while I really enjoy all four I frequently find myself turning to the 2nd and awaiting with a kind of excitement the progression to the final movement, a piece of music which always brings a sense of elation!
> 
> Initial introduction courtesy of the Zinman Tonhalle recordings followed by a predictable path through Sawallisch,Gardiner and Szell I have also even spent time with the Chailly recordings of the Mahler re-orchestrations.........Oramo recorded a fine set with the Royal Stockholm that appear to have received little acknowledgement......
> 
> realised now that it may be a while ( 2 weeks) since I listened to one of the symphonies so.......ending the evening with the 2nd!


my experience with these works is completely contrary to the received wisdom that somehow they are lacking......this is one of the reasons why I came t' them rather late in my listening 'career'.....perhaps another salutary reminder that one should perhaps rely on one's own ears!!!


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## chesapeake bay

jim prideaux said:


> my experience with these works is completely contrary to the received wisdom that somehow they are lacking......this is one of the reasons why I came t' them rather late in my listening 'career'.....perhaps another salutary reminder that one should perhaps rely on one's own ears!!!


I Have always enjoyed listening to his symphony's, though after listening to that Bernstein lecture posted previously, I can really enjoy the second even more, having been shown what makes it so good. My last expedition into Schumann lead me to buy Eshenbach's recording of the four Symphony's my next foray will be with Bernstein


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## Klavierspieler

Melikes 'em very good. Second's prolly the best symphony I know of. You should know I'm not really much of a symphony dud anyway, though. And I just have a thing for Schumann.


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## Pugg

Klavierspieler said:


> Melikes 'em very good. Second's prolly the best symphony I know of. You should know I'm not really much of a symphony dud anyway, though. And I just have a thing for Schumann.


Which recording/ conductor do you prefer?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Love them! All 4 of them.

By the way, I've been listening to Szell with the Cleveland orchestra - very highly recommended.


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## Olias

chesapeake bay said:


> Always nice to listen to Bernstein, thanks for posting that video link. Have you listened to his earlier NYP recording of Schumann? I'm wondering if I should get that one.


I enjoy both recordings. I just gravitate to the DG recording because its digital and I prefer that over analog, BUT many others prefer analog and are justified in so doing.


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## Enthusiast

I'm glad so many of us like the Schumanns - even accepting that his piano writing is his most miraculous - and have been very tempted by the almost unanimous acclaim for Bernstein in these works. I have also found the odd thought or experience on why so many looked down on these works for so long. I wonder if any others feel as I do that the individual works are not as different from each other - not as unique - as the symphonies of most of the more acknowledged "great symphonists"? I am not sure what it is that makes them less distinctive.


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## Vronsky




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## Johnnie Burgess

I like Schumann's symphonies. I would not rank the cycle in the top 10 but still very good.


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## Pugg

Johnnie Burgess said:


> I like Schumann's symphonies. I would not rank the cycle in the top 10 but still very good.


Lists are there to change.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Lists are there to change.


Now you can vote in a new poll to see where he ranks.


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## Vesteralen

Enthusiast said:


> I wonder if any others feel as I do that the individual works are not as different from each other - not as unique - as the symphonies of most of the more acknowledged "great symphonists"? I am not sure what it is that makes them less distinctive.


I guess I don't share that particular reaction. I can't remember ever having the problem of not being able to identify which was which from a few seconds listening, even back in the days (40+ years ago now) when I first heard them.

I have absolute favorite versions of the four symphonies, mostly from my earliest days of listening, that have never changed.

Symphony # 1 - Munch/BSO. Munch loved this symphony and you can tell by listening (even more so with the Manfred Overture which accompanies it on my CD). Everything about this performance has always seemed elemental and "right" to me, from the tempi to the intensity and the simply romantic "glow" of it all. Can not recommend it highly enough.

Symphony #2 - Kubelik/Berlin Phil. Again, for me, the absolute pinnacle performance of this work. The scherzo is thrilling, and the "choral" effect in the climax of the slow movement has never been equaled. (Again, paired with a sublime overture performance - "Genoveva")

Symphony #3 - Rene Leibowitz - I came to this one relatively late, but it blows every other version out the water for me.

Symphony #4 - Kubelik/Berlin Phil. - No clear winner on this one. I've heard many versions and at least half a dozen of them are equal, IMO.


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## Genoveva

Enthusiast said:


> ... I am quite a big Schumann fan.. .


Me too. He is well inside my top 10 composers, and always has been. His works covers most of the main classical music genres, and the quality of much of it is generally very high.

You refer mainly to his symphonies. I think that are all excellent, and rate them as highly as those of, say, Brahms. I don't have the slightest problem distinguishing between any of Schumann's symphonies. Nor do I accept that there is any major problem with his orchestration, as is sometimes alleged. The latter criticism sometimes gets dragged but any such problems as there may have been have been dealt with in several modern recordings of the works. By the way, I don't much care for Mahler's tinkerings with Schumann's symphonic writing. Mahler meant well but I prefer the real thing.

Schumann's choral works and song writing is top notch. His song cycles are especially good. I find his Op 50 Paradies Und Peri to be a really delightful piece. And of course there is his opera Genoveva which contains some very lovely work!

Of course, his piano solo work is outstanding, and this is possibly Schumann's main claim to fame. I like it as much as I do that of any composer except Beethoven and possibly Mozart and Schubert as well. I prefer it to that of his contemporary, Chopin, great though the latter's is too.

An area not to overlooked is his chamber music. There is a lot to get into here, and it repays a little effort to become acquainted with it all. He wrote string quarterts and a piano quartet and two piano trios. His Op 44 Piano Quintet is probably the most famous chamber work and is superb. But don't stop there. He wrote several duets for for violin, oboe etc, and all are definitely worth exploring.

As for his orchestral works, his cello and piano concertos are recognised to be top grade works. In addition, I especially love his violin concerto, and have done so for some time. It may take some to appreciate it, as it does sound rather strange upon first hearing but it soon grows on you, and I rate it as among my overall favourite VCs.

He wrote a number of other brilliant orchestral works - e.g. Ops 86, 92, 131, 134 - all of which are of essential listening.

As an all-round composer, I think he thoroughly deserves to be in the top 10. For me he is the very epitomy of the "romantic" era in classical music.


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## Vesteralen

Genoveva said:


> Of course, his piano solo work is outstanding, and this is possibly Schumann's main claim to fame. I like it as much as I do that of any composer except Beethoven and possibly Mozart and Schubert as well. I prefer it to that of his contemporary, Chopin, great though the latter's is too.


I can't explain it, but solo piano music usually bores me. I can hear the greatness in it sometimes, but I just never get excited. The only exception is Schumann. For some reason, much of Schumann's piano music appeals to me - notably the first two sonatas, the Fantasy in C, the Symphonic Etudes, the Kreisleriana, the Davidsbundlertanze, the Noveletten, the Papillons. It's the only piano music that invites me to listen again and again.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Still looking ..............................


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## LarryShone

I look on the shelf and there they are


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## Pugg

LarryShone said:


> I look on the shelf and there they are


Mine also.............................:lol:


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## Johnnie Burgess

Pugg said:


> Mine also.............................:lol:


Do you play them often. If you do not they might feel bad.


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## LarryShone

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Do you play them often. If you do not they might feel bad.


If I go too long without playing them I feel bad!


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## Johnnie Burgess

LarryShone said:


> If I go too long without playing them I feel bad!


Who is the conductor of your copy of Schumann symphonies?


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## LarryShone

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Who is the conductor of your copy of Schumann symphonies?


Not sure, its on a BBC Music magazine disk. I dont really look for specific conductors. The question is irrelevant.


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## Genoveva

Vesteralen said:


> I can't explain it, but solo piano music usually bores me. I can hear the greatness in it sometimes, but I just never get excited. The only exception is Schumann. For some reason, much of Schumann's piano music appeals to me - notably the first two sonatas, the Fantasy in C, the Symphonic Etudes, the Kreisleriana, the Davidsbundlertanze, the Noveletten, the Papillons. It's the only piano music that invites me to listen again and again.


I know exactly what you mean. It is music that has plenty of character and individuality. I love it all. Amongst the entire output of Schumann's solo piano piece I have a special liking for his Opus 28, Romance No 2 in F-sharp major. I understand that this was among Clara's favourites too, and that on her deathbed in 1896 she asked her grandson Ferdinand to play this piece for her, this being the last music she heard. In my own humble way I often play this work as it's not too difficult for an amateur like me to make it sound quite good.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Find them as average romantic era symphonies.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Variable. Favorite Schumann is #1 ("Spring"). Bernstein/N.Y. Phil, Sawallisch/Dresden Staatskapelle and Szell/Cleveland are all good
#3 ("Rhenish") is next. Same three conductors as above fine.
Not a fan of # 2 or #4.


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