# Choice of Baroque Operas



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

We're not that used to opera in general, but my wife's fiddle teacher will be touring with English Touring Opera as their musical director. They're coming to Snape -nearest local venue - with Monteverdi's "The Coronation of Poppea", Cavalli's "Jason", and Handel's "Agrippina" all sung in English. The Orchestra will be HIP. (We like this as we are both baroque fans.)

The question is, which of these would be most suitable for relative beginners?

Thanks in advance.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

We're thinking that Handel is the safe choice. We've been listening to short bursts & it's the familiar one. The Monteverdi snippets seem a bit quiet & slow & when I heard the director talking about serious political points being made by The Coronation of Poppaea, my heart quailed - it sounds a bit 'worthy'. We liked what we heard of Giasone, though why the chap on YouTube is lying in bed being groped by four strange arms is certainly an enigma. 

But have any of you seen productions of these operas, or know anything? Please do tell us!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Do not be put off by a director's mentioning the political points made in _Poppea_ which may have made a bit of ruffle when it was contemporary, but there is nothing you need to know, including the now in the light of history rather silly portrayal of Nero wholly loving and not insane -- hey, it is Opera! 

The opera is gorgeous, beginning to end, and wholly accessible. It is fabulous music, and I think less frequently done, perhaps especially on British soil (and not in London  than the Handel.

I have seen Poppea, some years back, Marylin Horne singing the role of the nurse, in an otherwise 'non mega star' summer season production, which all attending (and the critics as well) all thought pretty damned superb.

So I urge the Monteverdi upon you.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> But have any of you seen productions of these operas, or know anything? Please do tell us!


don't know anything about the Cavalli, but I like both Agrippina and Poppea. You could say both have politics, and both have Nero and Poppea, heh but the spotlight is on different characters. They're both half comedies, with Agrippina more so (but I guess it depends on the production). In Agrippina you will hear a few recycled arias from Handel's earlier works, the most obvious being Come nube (sung by Nerone), which has the same music as Come nembo from Il trionfo del tempo except with slightly different lyrics for obvious reasons. It's an absolute hit if you're not familiar with it yet. Agrippina is a great character and it comes off very well in the opera - all scheming with an oh so nice front. The music in the end, at least for me, isn't quite as consistently good as in the later, better known works, but it is fresh sounding. However, I have been thinking for a while about going to Barcelona in November to see Sarah Connelly as Agrippina in their production but it might end up being less fuss seeing this one here.

Poppea, to me, is all about sex, although there are political bits (Nerone is on a bit of a killing spree and Poppea is a very ambitious young lady). There's a lot of Poppea and Nerone making out to very romantic (not capital R romantic, of course) music. I find it exceptionally sweet (but not saccharine) given the characters. It's quiet and more sparse than later baroque and I think it leaves a lot of room for improvisation from production to production. It's quite different but in a good way. Sort of straight forward I'd say, where later baroque would be very ornamented. So if I can I will see the both of them and maybe so should you


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I recently saw a small production of _Poppea_ and found it lovely, not at all politically charged or overly complicated. There are several beautiful arias and I adored the score (played in a reduction for period chamber ensemble (harpsichord, harp, theorbos, lute, violin, cello). I would certainly have recommended it, especially for anyone that liked baroque music.

I have not seen the others though I have enjoyed the snippets I have heard!


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

I actually don't know if _L'Incoronazione di Poppea _still falls within the category of Renaissance opera, as Monteverdi's earlier ones, or is an early Baroque opera, or a transitional piece. Since Monteverdi, it is now believed, may have had no hand in writing it (it is now attributed to a group effort by a _Cammerata_), it could go either way when it comes to eras. But it is undeniably a masterpiece, and one of the few operas of that period that I like. The _Pur Ti Miro_ duet is a sublime piece of music, but the entire opera is pure gold and a surprising development in musical character delineation in opera. Not quite there, but almost there.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

yea, Pur ti miro is apparently almost surely not Monteverdi's, but whoever wrote it :tiphat: it's one of the most gorgeous duets in all opera - simple and effective; therefore, Poppea has the most satisfying ending of all operas I've heard so far. Just perfect (and slightly subversive, with the adulterous couple getting their happy ending).


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> yea, Pur ti miro is apparently almost surely not Monteverdi's, but whoever wrote it :tiphat: it's one of the most gorgeous duets in all opera - simple and effective; therefore, Poppea has the most satisfying ending of all operas I've heard so far. Just perfect (and slightly subversive, with the adulterous couple getting their happy ending).


A happy ending is always satisfying.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

yes, but some happy endings in opera are hackneyed, tacked on etc. - especially in opera seria where a _satisfyingly evil_ character does a 180 at the last moment.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> yes, but some happy endings in opera are hackneyed, tacked on etc. - especially in opera seria where a _satisfyingly evil_ character does a 180 at the last moment.


Too true. And we know that the Don Giovannis of this world, for example, will not be visited by the stone statue of one his victims to cart him off to hell. He would probably just get away with it or at worst be slapped with a lawsuit.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

a very generous statue, too! offering him the option of repentance. Were I DG, I'd have just given him an unsincere apology and made fun of his stoney-ness behind his back. But that would be the Offenbach version of DG (DG in the Underworld?).


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

One way of getting away with a happy and comic ending to Don Giovanni would have been to borrow Moliere's denouement from Don Juan ou Le Festin de Pierre. After Don Juan is dragged down to hell by the statue, the Leporello character (Sganarelle - DJ's servant) rushes in from the wings and begins to shout "My wages, my wages. Master, come back, you have not paid me my wages!"


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

very of our time: wealthy playboy accused of date-rape and murder, mistreats own staff and delays wage payments.

now how do we make this tangent relate back to baroque opera?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> very of our time: wealthy playboy accused of date-rape and murder, mistreats own staff and delays wage payments.
> 
> now how do we make this tangent relate back to baroque opera?


I know! Back to Poppea! The happy ending that you noted relates to the victory of a golddigging adulterer and an unnatural monster who, for the present, rejoice in the triumph of their love. Goodness, that sounds even worse than the prospect of DG getting away with it.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Revenant said:


> Goodness, that sounds even worse than the prospect of DG getting away with it.


:lol: where's that thread about immoral music? I love how nonchalant they were back then, none of that future Victorian prudishness.


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

deggial said:


> :lol: where's that thread about immoral music? I love how nonchalant they were back then, none of that future Victorian prudishness.


And the poisonings, massacres, abductions, rapes and stabbings were blithely exuberant back then, although we've been catching up fast!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Hi, guys - in the end we decided to *play safe* & go for the Handel. 

I quite fancied the Giasone but after seeing the weird sleazy YouTube clips, Taggart did *not*! The Monteverdi songs that *English Touring Opera* had put on their page dragged (for us) and a photo of Nero & his wife from a rehearsal looked odd. They weren't wearing modern dress, but what looked like 'fancy' historical dress, a pretendy crown & funky silk tunics. 
Maybe we're picky, but it put us off.

The Handel song-samples appealed at once. So off we'll go to *Snape*, on a Saturday in October (19th) to see 'Agrippina'. Our first visit there - my violin teacher* (leading the orchestra, *The Old Street Band*) advised us to go near the front as he said the acoustics were best, but too late, we're in the tiered seats, though not too far from the stage. Apparently, the production lasts three hours so we'll be back home late, & no doubt be tired the next day.

Can't wait, though! 
We'll let you know what we thought of it on this thread. I wonder if any of you others are going?

PS - Jim actually advocated Poppaea, like most of you above. So doubtless we're making the wrong choice. Sorry...!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Revenant said:


> I know! Back to Poppea! The happy ending that you noted relates to the victory of a golddigging adulterer and an unnatural monster who, for the present, rejoice in the triumph of their love. Goodness, that sounds even worse than the prospect of DG getting away with it.


Don't worry. The monster kicks the now pregnant gold-digger to death just a year later. Arnalta was right all along.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Giasone is rather non-PC but it is very funny. Poppea is simply brilliant but you have to get used to the musical idiom - it's more through-composed, no standout arias until you get to Pur ti Miro. What I love about these early baroque pieces is that they put real humans on the stage rather than the idealised characters of later opera seria. And they have a Shakespearean mix of comic and serious.

However you can't go wrong with Handel, I'm sure you guys will enjoy it. Have a listen before you go though. Familiarity really helps, so that you can enjoy the ornamentation that comes in the second part of the da capo arias.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Giasone is rather non-PC but it is very funny. *Poppea is simply brilliant but you have to get used to the musical idiom - it's more through-composed, no standout arias until you get to Pur ti Miro*. What I love about these early baroque pieces is that they put real humans on the stage rather than the idealised characters of later opera seria. And they have a Shakespearean mix of comic and serious.
> 
> However you can't go wrong with Handel, I'm sure you guys will enjoy it. Have a listen before you go though. Familiarity really helps, so that you can enjoy the ornamentation that comes in the second part of the da capo arias.


Yes I was thinking same thing Monteverdi is for later more specialized purchase, a more reserved overall style.........

Italian Handel operas are exciting and easy to listen to, get the ultra cheap Virgin label boxset for quick start. Then start buying the Naive label Vivaldi operas, outstanding performances in excellent sound quality featuring the very best baroque singers today.....


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

For baroque DVD/Blu Ray these two are really great place to start


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Giasone is rather non-PC but it is very funny. Poppea is simply brilliant but you have to get used to the musical idiom - it's more through-composed, no standout arias until you get to Pur ti Miro. What I love about these early baroque pieces is that they put real humans on the stage rather than the idealised characters of later opera seria. And they have a Shakespearean mix of comic and serious.
> 
> However you can't go wrong with Handel, I'm sure you guys will enjoy it. Have a listen before you go though. Familiarity really helps, so that you can enjoy the ornamentation that comes in the second part of the da capo arias.


Speaking of Poppea and Monteverdi, hoping it will not offend the purists too much, this consort has found a way of interpreting Monteverdi in a manner that is both stunning and accessible to newcomers to early Baroque opera, let alone Renaissance music. After all, if Monteverdi and his cammarata colleagues had not been limited to period instruments and were given a choice of "upgrading"?.....

Wait for Pur Ti Miro, for those who are not acquainted with Nuria and Philippe.

(Sorry, the embed function didn't work for me this time. So here's the link.)


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I would recommend Poppea, in my opinion Monteverdi's operas just can't be beaten. Handel's a good choice though, and I'm sure you'll both have a good time!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Revenant said:


> Speaking of Poppea and Monteverdi, hoping it will not offend the purists too much, this consort has found a way of interpreting Monteverdi in a manner that is both stunning and accessible to newcomers to early Baroque opera, let alone Renaissance music. After all, if Monteverdi and his cammarata colleagues had not been limited to period instruments and were given a choice of "upgrading"?.....
> 
> Wait for Pur Ti Miro, for those who are not acquainted with Nuria and Philippe.
> 
> (Sorry, the embed function didn't work for me this time. So here's the link.)


I am devoted to Christina Pluhar and L'Arpeggiata. Listening to them is such fun.

Another wonderful take on Pur ti Miro comes from La Venexiana:


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

The English Touring Opera's performances have started. This is a review of Poppea from 'The Guardian'.

The orchestra gets a bit of praise, which is good - my fiddle teacher (Jim O'Toole) plays in (& is orchestra manager of) the Old Street Band. It must be hard work for him...

'In the pit, Michael Rosewell is in charge of the Old Street Band, bringing a keen sense of style to the score and maintaining a consistent sense of flow.'


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Yesterday the English Touring Opera had their first night of 'Jason'; an online review I read is favourable.

Again, the Old Street Band is praised...

'It's no disrespect to the onstage performers to say that much of the evening's joy comes from the lively account of the inventive score by The Old Street Band, theorbos and all, under Joseph McHardy's sprightly baton.'


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

And finally Agrippina, which gets reasonably good reviews.

The Evening Standard thought "it all makes for a terrific show."

The Telegraph described the performance as "modest but adept". We feel quite pleased because "Conway isn't the most subtle or imaginative of directors - but at least there's nothing tasteless, and Samal Blak's stylized baroque designs provide an attractive visual context." So at least we only have the silly wig to worry about.









Grand schemers: Agrippina (Gillian Webster) and Poppea (Paula Sides) © Alastair Muir

There also a review at the Arts Desk which also covers Jason as well.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

We went last night and had a marvellous time. The wigs were more than a little silly but the music and the singing were excellent. The plot is a farce in the best Ben Travers tradition - a very funny performance, but it does have, as one of our friends remarked, some "stonking tunes"!

The opera was sung in an English translation by James Conway, who also directed, and accompanied by (sometimes arch) surtitles. These did not fully convey what was being sung but rather set the scene in the manner of silent movie subtitles but also with the air of 19th century chapter titles. The set was basically a three part evolving centrepiece - offering three distinct "rooms" - a boudoir, a "palace" and Agripina's den. Entrances were sometimes effected by characters entering (from the rear) one of these rooms which was then rotated to the front of the stage - the surtitles would then announce "In which Agripina plots to put Nero on the throne" and off the action would go.

The Old Street Band, conducted by Jonathan Kenny, were excellent. The use of period instruments suited the venue and the singers. There were three counter tenors, which gave the opera a different feel from more modern ones. Ottone (Clint van der Linde) had a number of excellent arias. Nerone (Jake Arditti) had a superb aria in the second half. The stage business throughout was excellent - when Poppea (Paula Sides) learned of ottone's supposed betrayal, the surtitles said "She expressed her feelings horticulturally" - she reduced some roses to slim stems. When Claudius (Andrew Slater) had the aria about being a raging bull, his laurel wreath crown was re-arranged to resemble horns and the flowing sleeves of Poppea's dress were used as a matador's cape.

Overall, a thoroughly enjoyable evening.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Taggart said:


> The wigs were more than a little silly but the music and the singing were excellent.


What is it with Agrippina and wigs? Look what they did to Philippe Jaroussky in one of my DVDs:










Seriously though, glad you had a good time!


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

This new Serse cd was released last month and got a glowing review from The Observer. Just click image for larger version. Has anyone listened to this one yet? Recommendations? Yes? No?


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## Revenant (Aug 27, 2013)

Revenant said:


> This new Serse cd was released last month and got a glowing review from The Observer. Just click image for larger version. Has anyone listened to this one yet? Recommendations? Yes? No?
> 
> View attachment 26930


Scratch that. Read other reviews. Decided to play it safe and ordered the stalwart Nicholas McGegan complete version for only $19 or so. I was lucky to find it and at this price. Hope there is no real-time stocking glitches with the order.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

We went to a Norwich Baroque concert last night and one of the items was Octavia's lament on being exiled from Rome, from Monteverdi's 'Poppaea', sung by Jayne-May Sysum. It was presented after the interval, very dramatically. The audience had resumed their seats, but there was only the theorbo player on stage & I assumed he was there for tuning purposes. Then from the back of the hall we heard the lines: 'Go - you are exiled from Rome; leave now, and never return!' Then the soprano entered, almost sobbing, and sang this broken, minor-keyish aria - it was extremely effective. 

I think Taggart & I made the right choice to see Agrippina at Snape Maltings, but I was very impressed by this music and by such a moving and beautiful rendition.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Ingélou said:


> I think Taggart & I made the right choice to see *Agrippina* at Snape Maltings, but I was very impressed by this music and by such a moving and beautiful rendition.


Agrippina! Oh yes, my absolute favorite Handel opera! :tiphat:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The whole of L'Incoronazione is fantastic. It's a wonderful mixture of serious, searing and comic, with some beautiful music. I love to see it live, but that's not going to happen, so thank goodness for some great DVDs out there.


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