# Recurrence of ideas throughout Mahler's symphonies



## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Many of Mahler's symphonies have recurring themes within each work, but there are also quite a few ideas that pop up in multiple symphonies. Most notable is the simple major chord changing to its parallel minor. This pops up first of all in the first movement of No. 2, becomes the main motif of No. 6, and recurs again in the 2nd movement of No. 7.

Also, the opening trumpet solo of his Fifth is briefly "previewed" in the first movement of No. 4. Another one is the woodwind chords that start the "march" section of the first movt. of No. 3. This sequence briefly appears during the finale of No. 2, in the Allegro section after the two crescendi on percussion.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

There's also the connection between the climax of the development of the first movement of the Seventh Symphony and a figure played in both movements of the Eighth. The beginning of the Ninth's Rondo Burleske has always reminded me of the beginning of the second movement of the Fifth (in the same key).

There are far more if you include the songs as well. Even leaving out the connections between the First Symphony and the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, which are well-known, these are numerous. The first theme of the third movement of the Third Symphony is developed from a lesser-known song:
Ablösung im Sommer

The march rhythms of the first Nachtmusik movement from the Seventh are directly out of one of Mahler's best song settings, Revelge:
Revelge

The final page of the final movement of the Ninth contains a direct quotation from the Kindertotenlieder:
Oft denk Ich, sie sind nur ausgegangen

The the trio of the Tenth Symphony's Purgatorio movement quotes from Das Lied von der Erde. The same theme recurs in the Tenth Symphony's finale.
Der Trunkene im Fruhling
Purgatorio

Finally, bits of Das Klagende Lied were later transplanted into the First and Second symphonies. Conversely, one melodic fragment in Das Klagende Lied was taken from an earlier song Mahler had written (and that's getting _really_ obscure!).
Im Lenz


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Since there was no question involved, other than saying "Yes indeed," or listing quotations as Mahlerian did, there is little to say. However, do note that Beethoven's late quartets are similarly self-referential.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I often think of No. 8 as a conceptual re-elaboration of No. 2. They share certain mannerisms Mahler seemed to have subdued in symphonies 5-7. There are many aspects of the 8th that I still find a bit "strange" like the unusually high amount of passages with block chord progressions as background harmony.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

James Joyce did it as well in his works, and they seem to share some aesthetic principles with Mahler's works, too!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I've noticed in Mahler scores (of which I have several in my score collection) that the composer tends to start each work with clef signs and end every work with a double bar line. Is this a pattern of some unique philosophical-religious musical aestheticism? Or was Mahler just lazy and stuck in a rut?


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Oops. Sorry. I was supposed to post that one in the "Stupid threads" thread. (But if our esteemed Mahlerian has a response, I'm eager to hear it!)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> I've noticed in Mahler scores (of which I have several in my score collection) that the composer tends to start each work with clef signs and end every work with a double bar line. Is this a pattern of some unique philosophical-religious musical aestheticism? Or was Mahler just lazy and stuck in a rut?
> 
> ----
> Oops. Sorry. I was supposed to post that one in the "Stupid threads" thread. (But if our esteemed Mahlerian has a response, I'm eager to hear it!)


This brings up a good point though that I've thought about often. When is a "connection" between themes actually there intentionally or just there because a composer has certain tendencies or there are only so much musical combinations to make.

For example, are the series of descending seconds that begin the second movement of Mahler's 9th symphony (after the little bassoon and double bass thing) a reference to the harping descending seconds in the main melody of the first movement? Or is it just a melody composed of falling seconds just because falling seconds are common? What about the accented grace note appogatura things in the horns?

I don't actually know, there might be a definite answer to that question but I'm just saying the connections can often be quite vague especially if there aren't many notes.

I once heard someone say that Beethoven's Hammerklavier is saturated with thirds, but isn't all music of that era saturated with thirds? I think it's hard to say if that's really one of the intended motifs or if it's just how the style ends up working.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

violadude said:


> For example, are the series of descending seconds that begin the second movement of Mahler's 9th symphony (after the little bassoon and double bass thing) a reference to the harping descending seconds in the main melody of the first movement? Or is it just a melody composed of falling seconds just because falling seconds are common? What about the accented grace note appogatura things in the horns?


For the first one, I'd wager that it was a conscious or half-conscious connection. The first movement spends so much time working over that simple motif of a falling second from the third to the second of the key, without ever resolving to the tonic, and then the second movement bursts in and trivializes the whole thing by simply resolving it immediately and perfunctorily.

As for the horn grace notes, I'd hesitate to call that a thematic connection, especially since it is a relatively common element in Mahler's style.



violadude said:


> I don't actually know, there might be a definite answer to that question but I'm just saying the connections can often be quite vague especially if there aren't many notes.
> 
> I once heard someone say that Beethoven's Hammerklavier is saturated with thirds, but isn't all music of that era saturated with thirds? I think it's hard to say if that's really one of the intended motifs or if it's just how the style ends up working.


This is a good point. I've heard people say that the chain of fourths opening Mahler's First is taken either from Brahms' Second (in the same key) or Beethoven's Fourth (which isn't even the same interval, but the shape and place in their respective introductions match). Either way, it's not such a complex idea that Mahler couldn't have come up with it on his own without any influence, and while it may be interesting to speculate on connections like that, if its function in the whole is significantly different, it's not really taking music from someone else's composition so much as taking inspiration from it.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I apologize for asking this on this thread and not addressing the OP, I didn't want to create another thread.

I was wondering if anyone could expand on the term, "Chromatic Pentatonicisim", in regards to this review of Mahler's 9th (Abbado) on Classical.net.

"_Gustav Mahler died before ever hearing his Ninth, his last complete work. As a result, writers - at least since Redlich, Berg, and Adorno - have regarded the symphony as his requiem, the composer's premonition of his death.

I hate to spoil a good story, but I don't quite buy it. After all, most of Mahler's works, from the early Das klagende Lied on, are death-haunted or heaven-haunted, sometimes both. To me, the Ninth expresses the world of Das Lied von der Erde, this time instrumentally, rather than vocally._ *Das Lied sings of the transitory and of the Orient, using a "chromatic pentatonicism" invented by Mahler. I suspect Mahler didn't feel done with the idiom, and it pervades the outer movements.*"


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

maestro267 said:


> Many of Mahler's symphonies have recurring themes within each work, but there are also quite a few ideas that pop up in multiple symphonies. Most notable is the simple major chord changing to its parallel minor. This pops up first of all in the first movement of No. 2, becomes the main motif of No. 6, and recurs again in the 2nd movement of No. 7.


To the OP and regarding symphony 6 and 7 there might actually be a further connection with that parallel major/minor motif.

You know how in the 6th the last fortissimo chord is a terrifying A minor chord on top of the signature timpani rhythm, which contrasts with the usual major->minor in the piece because it's just the minor chord. And even more importantly, it's voiced in the trumpets with the fifth of the chord on top (i.e. E), which is typical throughout the piece with the major->minor motif. This terrifying A minor (rather than the usual A major-> A minor) presumably symbolizes sudden death, tragedy, defeat, or whatever Mahler had in mind.

Okay, well, in the 7th most people know about the major->minor thing which happens at 3 climaxes in the first Nachtmusik movement. Fair enough, but... at the end of the finale, there is a similar thing, but we just have the major chord! It's a few C major chords with the fifth note (G) in the top of the trumpets (rehearsal 296). I think that this is not some trivial "of course a C major movement is going to have some powerful C major chords at the end" because of the way it's voiced in the trumpets. In my opinion, it recalls the ideas of the sixth symphony ending, but with a positive ending rather than a negative ending!

Okay maybe I'm wrong... but I keep hearing these major chords at that point in the 7th as the antithesis of the minor chord that ends the 6th. Is perhaps Mahler saying that the adventurous wildness of the 7th symphony is a way out of the darkness of the 6th?

And finally to violadude: the next time some critic says that so-and-so's symphony's short-short-short-long motif is a homage to Beethoven, I'm going to give either him or her a firm spanking!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I was wondering if anyone could expand on the term, "Chromatic Pentatonicisim", in regards to this review of Mahler's 9th (Abbado) on Classical.net.


Yeah...I have no clue what he means. There are some pentatonic motifs in Das Lied, true, but not really in the Ninth. Usually, the terms are opposed to each other, and sticking them together makes me think of something like Bartok...


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I'll I can hypothesize is that in although in Das Lied many of the themes and their accompaniments (especially in the middle movements) are pentatonic through and through, they do modulate, which I guess makes it chromatic in a way?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I don't know about the analysis of Das Lied, though it does have an "oriental" feel at times, due to, I suspect, a pentatonic scale. But there really is no mystery to what a chromatic pentatonic scale is. Recall, a diatonic scale a is an eight-note musical scale composed of seven pitches and a repeated octave, while a diatonic chromatic scale includes the "in between" notes, making for a 13-note scale with 12 pitches and a repeated octave, each pitch spaces a half step apart. So, you go from an 8-note diatonic to a 13-note chromatic. With the pentatonic, you are moving along only five pitches, with the sixth bringing back the octave. How you space them will determine how many in-between notes your "chromatic" scale will have. Of course, if you use quarter-tones, you can create vastly large chromatic quarter tone scales.

Which is why one note music is so much more satisfying. It's simple.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

I hear much self-quotation by Mahler throughout his symphonies, more so with repeated listening. An instance of this that I only recently noticed is this idea which is heard in the trumpets, in the first movement of the 6th:

At ~ 1: 40






Which Mahler quotes in the andante comodo of the 9th:

At ~ 8:24


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