# ...Newbee - Beethoven Symphonies - Box Set - Where to Start?



## ethan417 (Jun 10, 2020)

Hi Everyone
I hope you are safe and well.

Being that I have some time on my hands, I thought it might be fun to explore a quality performance/recording of the 9 symphonies. 

I'm looking for suggestions.

I grew up listening to the George Szell recordings - which I own.

After a lot of reading - I realize that there is no perfect box set. 

I realize that my question is subjective.

Here is the focus of my search.

Great interpretation without regard to modern sonic quality.
Great interpretation with great sonic quality.

Finally a question about remastering.

For some recordings like the Herbert Von Karajan 1963 cycle, there are multiple CD releases. Which one is sonically the best?

Another example of multiple CD release - Nikolaus Harnoncourt & Chamber Orchestra of Europe - there is a 1991 release and also a 2008 release - same recording. Is there a quality difference?

Many thanks for your help.

- Ethan


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

For great interpretation and incredible sound quality, I highly recommend the Osmo Vanska/Minnesota recordings on the BIS label.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Related topic for our member Merl

https://www.talkclassical.com/62456-merls-beethoven-syphony-cycle.html?highlight=


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

If you're looking for the best masterings of the 1963 and 1977 Karajan cycles, look for the Blu-Ray releases of each, or their corresponding Hi-Res downloads. If your system can't handle Blu-Ray or hi-res, there are corresponding CD releases of each. My preference between them (and among all the cycles I own) is the 1977 cycle for sound quality and briskness reasons.

Alternatives from the HIP (historically informed performance) school of thought are Gardiner's 1994 cycle, and Jos van Immerseel's 2008 cycle. They both have great sound and approach the symphonies from the perspective of historical instruments and Beethoven's (controversial) metronome markings.

Karajan 63: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonien-Blu-ray-Audio/dp/B01D2FIN1C/
Karajan 77: https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Dolby-Atmos-Blu-ray/dp/B07H62PFS4/
Gardiner 94: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7983819--beethoven-symphonies-nos-1-9
Immerseel 08: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7963089--beethoven-complete-symphonies


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

There have been a number of exceptionally good Beethoven sets in the last few years (Merl's reviews referred to above tackle many of them). I have been particularly enjoying (an understatement in a couple of cases) Norrington's second (Stuttgart) cycle, Adam Fischer's Naxos set and, for a purely HIP set, Haselbock (despite its weak 9th). And Skrowaczewski's set is more "conventional" but also very good and fresh. Of the older sets, where to start and where to stop? I like most of Harnoncourt's set and Bernstein's set is excellent even if it draws less on the European tradition. I also like much of Klemperer's set (ideally the one that comes with Kempe's Brahms set) and many of the Vanska performances (but try to hear first as it goes for a more cerebral Beethoven than we are used to). Karajan is Karajan and, of course, good once you have got through the various views on which his best set is.

Personally, I would avoid Van Immerseel's set (it's nice but rather bland), Krivine's set and Gardiner's set (he makes points but the music can sometimes suffer from his lack of flexibility and feel for the music - his two live performances made later are much better). 

There are many others: you can certainly go wrong but there are plenty of great choices, too.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Gramophone once recommended these sets from over the ages:

Toscanini 
Bruno Walter 1947-53
Karajan 1963
Roger Norrington 1985
Harnoncourt

I most enjoy Ernest Ansermet from the 1950s and 1960s.

I have owned the Immerseel and agree its bland. I have owned Gardiner; it's not bland but it lacks charm, humor and flexibility. To me Gardiner is to Beethoven what Timothy Dalton was to James Bond: humorless, charmless and without subtlety.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

There are lots of good sets from Toscanini forward, and tastes are remarkably variable, so what I like may not be what you like. For a traditional 20th c set (i.e. large orchestra) I like Schmidt-Isserstedt with Vienna Phil., which is lively, not too mannered, and of course has the VPO at its best. But that's just me.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Blomstedt/Dresden, Karajan ‘77, Kletzki/Czech Phil, Bohm/VPO, Bernstein/VPO, Skrowaczewski are some favorite stereo cycles of mine. Generally for starters I would say Karajan for the perfect “middle of the road” interpretations and Skrow for more exciting and punchy readings without the daft flashiness of Gardiner, et al. Toscanini ‘39 and Furtwangler on Andromeda are absolutely essential once you get to know and love the music.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Granate reviewed a load on here in the form of a challenge (just do a Google search on 'Granate Beethoven Challenge Talkclassical'). They are in different tables going up to Table 6 (correct me if I'm wrong Granate). I think there were about 60 of the best known cycles reviewed and those that made his final were:
Ansermet OSR
Bernstein NYPO
Karajan BPO 63
Konwitschny LGO
Monteux WPO-LSO
Schmidt-Isserstedt WPO
Skrowaczewski RSOS
Szell ClO
Wand SOdNDR

I then started reviewing the ones Granate didn't review and currently it's up to Part 15 (good grief!) that encompasses about 70 sets and there's still more to do! To find my reviews do a Google search of 'Merl's Beethoven Symphony Cycles Reviews'. If you find the latest one there's links back at the bottom of the page to all the previous ones. Those that I've given exceptional reviews to include:

Skrowaczewski
Haselbock
Adam Fischer
De Vriend
Gielen 2
Norrington/SWR
Lan Shui
Jordan/Paris (dvd/bluray) 
Maag
Mackerras (both) 
Dohnanyi
Blomstedt/Dresden
Steinberg

With hindsight, in my reviews I underscored both Mackerras sets (they should have been A-) and severely underrated Dohnanyi (another set I've changed my mind on) and would now rate as A-) So I've added them to the list above. However, I do love some of the sets in Granate's list too (but not others, lol). Tbh, I'd also happily recommend any set I've given a B+ rating to, tbh. There's some really great sets out there and some are cheap as chips. Szell was a great start to your cycle infatuation (it will end up with you owning at least 20 sets) as it's a classic cycle.

Bear in mind that me, you, Granate and everyone else here has different ideas on what constitutes a great Beethoven cycle and there are so many to choose from its ridiculous. 
There are many, many other LVB symphony threads scattered around the site but to speed things up I've linked some of these below. As all have very conflicting opinions. My advice is to read them, read reviews on here, read reviews from the critics but most of all listen. Find things you like in sets and explore the whole cycle. If you have a streaming service then we probably will not see you on here (cos you'll be too busy listening) for a few years as there are stacks of LvB cycles online, lol. Try and listen to as many different styles as there's so many to try. Don't get bogged down in one particular style of LvB performance. Its refreshing moving between different ones. Here's some more links to other threads. Explore and enjoy.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.talkclassical.com/22952-beethoven-symphony-cycle-best-4.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiXhtC7wvfpAhViQkEAHVBSB34QrAIwAHoECAYQAw&usg=AOvVaw2dg9XTEkYnnj6GWWV3vocG

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.talkclassical.com/32927-beethoven-symphonies-set-recommendation.html&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjqpNmFw_fpAhXCgVwKHTDzA4AQrAIwAHoECAYQAw&usg=AOvVaw1siLN1vbJqgc3RgSfbIJQk


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Double post. Sorry.

Edit to Reply to Merl. Thank you. Many great cycles in that list. In fact, the Fischer Danish cycle hadn't been made when I finished my Beethoven challenge. Nor the Nelsons in Vienna. The Norrington wasn't reviewed then since it wasn't widely available. It's fantastic too. I haven't had any opportunity to love more the Decca products of HSI and Ansermet, both great I assume to remember. However, time has made me loathe the Konwitschny Leipzig stereo recordings, forget about Monteux and Karajan 63, and bore out of the Gunter Wand cycle. The Bernstein in New York still remains a strange case. I don't know anymore if the wittiness of the performances are genuine or posh, forced and artificial. See below for my new loves.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Ethan, welcome. I'm afraid that your description of the "great interpretation" you seek is too ambiguous. I don't know what kind of nuances or concepts are you looking for in that set of symphonies. I can think of many well-performed Beethoven cycles that sound superb, especially modern ones:

Haitink LSO
Böhm WPO (brassier than most Vienna recordings)
A. Fischer Danish

On another sound level:
Nelsons WPO
Saraste WDR
Dudamel Simón Bolívar



Granate said:


> Granate Table 1
> Granate Table 2
> Granate Table 3
> Granate Table 4
> ...





Granate said:


> _In case the pictures have broken links: Beethoven symphonies cond. by Otto Klemperer in Torino Studio (No.1), Live in Cologne (No.3 & No.9) and Live in Amsterdam 1956 (2,4-8) and 1964 (9)._​
> My head and my heart have gone nuts with these mono recordings. I needed to listen to them for a second time to gasp in awe for the conducting. I would really recommend stereo cycles, but since the ones I really like are either OOP or quite expensive, I've found shelter in Klemperer's Beethoven.
> 
> Especially the Amsterdam ones sound worse. However, the style has nothing to do with the slowness of the studio cycle. I have bought the set and I have to get with luck this 9th, which is already dispatched from HK.
> ...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Since you have Szell, find something that will be a contrast. How about Barenboim with the Berlin Staatskapelle?


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

You can't do wrong with these 3 =>








John Eliot Gardiner's Hip traversal
(available in a mid-price box set)








Paavo Järvi's conducts the Bremer Kammerphilharmonie (on modern instruments) in a Hip-inspired performance.
(available in a 5 cd box-set or on 5 separate SACD's)








Bernard Haitink -LSO (SACD)
Hip-inspired (but still a tad big-boned); performed live on modern instruments


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Merl said:


> With hindsight, in my reviews I underscored both Mackerras sets (they should have been A-) and severely underrated Dohnanyi (another set I've changed my mind on) and would now rate as A-) So I've added them to the list above. However, I do love some of the sets in Granate's list too (but not others, lol). Tbh, I'd also happily recommend any set I've given a B+ rating to, tbh. There's some really great sets out there and some are cheap as chips. Szell was a great start to your cycle infatuation (it will end up with you owning at least 20 sets) as it's a classic cycle.


I don't know the Dohnanyi, but I feel you dilute your A category by adding Mackerras! Until now I have been 100% with your enthusiasms but there you have added a couple of sets that I am lukewarm on at best. No reason that we should agree on all but it tickled me that I could hear what it was about every one of you A graders. Oh well.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Enthusiast said:


> I don't know the Dohnanyi, but I feel you dilute your A category by adding Mackerras! Until now I have been 100% with your enthusiasms but there you have added a couple of sets that I am lukewarm on at best. No reason that we should agree on all but it tickled me that I could hear what it was about every one of you A graders. Oh well.


LOL. We're never gonna agree. I'm surprised you don't rate Mackerras. I think both of Mackerras's sets are very enjoyable and I fluctuate between B+ and A- with them. I rate most Mackerras recordings very highly. He made some cracking recordings (Dvorak, Sibelius 2, etc). The Dohnanyi is a solid A-. I was wayyyyy too hard on it back then. If you like Dohnanyis superb Dvorak and splendid Brahms and Schumann you'll enjoy his Beethoven too.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*...Newbee - Beethoven Symphonies - Box Set - Where to Start? *

Where to start? With Symphony No. 1, of course. Proceed from there.

The set I have for some time now recommended (for a very "Beethovenishy feel", whatever that means) is:









All the best as you explore the King.


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## RobertKC (Dec 9, 2013)

I suggest that you consider modern performances that feature state-of-the-art Blu-ray audio/video quality.





































Here's a thread about modern Blu-ray recordings: Blu-ray Videos of Classical Concerts


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Without regard to sound quality (well somewhat, these are Furtwangler's best combination of sound and performance quality):

















For a contrast in approach, there is Toscanini:


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

For modern sound, the best option IMO is to get the Bohm, which is a top recommendation in every work except the sluggish 5th, but then supplement this with the Carlos Kleiber 5th.

































If you want further contrast in modern sound (i.e. period performance), then go for the Gardiner.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Well I can't offer much different but I'll add a vote for the following:

Period Instruments
Immerseel (also includes overtures)

Modern Instruments but Historically Informed
Mackerras (Royal Liverpool cycle) - The EXTENSIVE program notes on each work are fantastic

DVD
Bernstein (Vienna) - the CDs are great but these live performances should really be watched.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I have 2 sets, both of which are excellent:
Toscanini/NBC 50s
Solti/CSO/decca
I also have Reiner, complete from different sources, not a boxed set...top-notch all the way
Walter, also, the NYPO set on lp, various performances with NYPO, ColSO....same with Szell/CO (2,3,4,5,7,8)


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

You can't go wrong with either:
~Barenboim | Berlin Staatskapelle (Warner) or
~Bernstein | VPO (DG)

Gunther Wang's set with the NDR Symphony (RCA) is very solid in its own right.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> For modern sound, the best option IMO is to get the Bohm, which is a top recommendation in every work except the sluggish 5th, but then supplement this with the Carlos Kleiber 5th.


I think of Bohm's Beethoven as being the opposite of Bernstein's (NYPO) recordings. The first just oozes (European) tradition and is staid. The latter is often inspired in a fairly conventional way but the tradition he draws on seems to have something of Hollywood in it! I actually really like Bohm's 5th and think of it, with the Pastoral, as the best of his series. It is slow but the VPO sound glorious!


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Karl Bohm's collection with Vienna Philharmonic has traditional values and instruments and has been highly considered for years. Individual versions have been remastered and rerelased in SHM-CD format from Japan. These are pricey but exceptional sounding.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=bohm+beethoven+shm+cd&i=popular&ref=nb_sb_noss

I found the whole set in Japan for $111. DHL can ship them to USA in a few days for a price.

https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/UCGG-9136?s_ssid=e475e35ee4b53a2d60


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