# The Schoenberg Experiment



## scratchgolf

When it comes to classical music experience and exposure, I'm still quite the rookie. Compared to some here with decades of listening and studying, I'm only about 2.5 years into my journey. I've always been very candid about my listening experience, as I don't see it as a negative, nor do I feel the need to claim I like things I don't. I've also been very candid about my desire to branch out and explore new things. When others say "absolutely not" I say "why not". Mmsbls has mentioned his journey before and how his musical tastes evolved to areas he never thought they would. I want this too. I want my mind open to new ideas but I have a problem. I'm mentally disorganized and can never commit proper time to exploring newer works. I begin frequently but it's just too easy to fall back into my comfort zone. This is why I'm designating the month of January for my Schoenberg Experiment. I'd start immediately but I'll be hosting quite frequently throughout the holidays and don't want to force Arnie on my guests, nor do I want to keep my sons from the Christmas music they so enjoy. 

So, starting 1 January 2015 I'll listen to nothing but Arnold Schoenberg. I selected him as a starting point because he was so instrumental in the transformation of music during the early 20th century, and because he's such a polarizing figure in music history. My listening will be both casual and focused, depending on the circumstances. Whether at the gym, in the car, cooking, or sipping whisky by the fireplace, I will listen to nothing else for the entire month. Zero exceptions. I'm somewhat flexible with the order I'll listen but I'd like to stick somewhat closely to a chronological order. Not necessarily by date but certainly by period. I'll slowly transition from his late Romantic works through his free atonality and on to his 12 Tone works and return to tonality. I'll be documenting my exploration here and in the Current Listening thread. Since I don't own a single work of his, most of my listening will be on youtube but I will purchase a few works prior to January so I can take them out of the house with me. I'd love as much participation as possible and suggestions would be extremely welcomed, whether here or in PM. I'm not expecting a miraculous transformation but, at a minimum, I'll come out of this with respect and appreciation. As this thread will most likely be buried by the New Year, I'll revive it a few days prior so I may get my preparations ready. I'm determined to see this through and I look forward to sharing my experiences along with hearing those of others. Since my musical experience is rather small and my terminology is extremely limited, expect more expressions of feelings and emotions rather than technical terms. I'm actually quite excited to begin, yet saddened that I don't have the self discipline to do this any other way.


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## DiesIraeCX

Good luck scratchgolf! I suggest the first two works should be _Verklärte Nacht_ and the _String Quartet in D Major_! Then perhaps _Chamber Symphony No. 2_. After that, make your way to the more "scary" stuff. 

Here's to a wonderful month, hopefully. :tiphat:


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## Mahlerian

Start at op. 1, go through to op. 50. The level of "difficulty" of a piece will seem to jump all over the map even within his multiple styles, even going in order like that. I'd be happy to suggest good performances I've found on Youtube. I find watching a performer tends to connect better than a still picture or a score, so if it's possible, go for that. Good luck and hope you enjoy!


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## ptr

Make sure You listen in chronological order, makes for a much more interesting experience to follow the composers development of both ideas and music!

/ptr


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## scratchgolf

Mahlerian said:


> Start at op. 1, go through to op. 50. The level of "difficulty" of a piece will seem to jump all over the map even within his multiple styles, even going in order like that. I'd be happy to suggest good performances I've found on Youtube. I find watching a performer tends to connect better than a still picture or a score, so if it's possible, go for that. Good luck and hope you enjoy!


You've been quite the asset in my journey thus far. Needless to say, I'll be leaning on you a bit more. I'm certain you had friendly and helpful people who assisted you along the way. Someday I'll pay it forward but sharing with my sons is the most rewarding thing I can think of.


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## arpeggio

Do not get discouraged. As I have stated in other threads I did not get Schoenberg until I was in my fifties.


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## Mahlerian

One thing that may help listening is that Schoenberg often uses melodies/motifs/lines that begin and end separately, combined with constant irregular phrase structure, this is one of the things that makes the music sound jumbled at first if you're not used to it. Learn to pick out the way the motifs/melodies/lines interact and trade places, and the music sorts itself out very quickly.

You might think the harmony would make a huge difference, but it's not the actual chords used (most of which are familiar to most at this point) so much as the density of it and the speed at which the harmony changes, as well as hearing certain kinds of harmony independent of contexts you may be more familiar with.


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## scratchgolf

In addition, it would be a great time to experience a live performance. I'll set a no further than limit for my traveling and research concerts on my own. If anyone is aware of a performance in January, within my radius, please share. I'll say my area I'm willing to travel is Montreal-Toronto-Cleveland-Pittsburg-Philly-NYC-Boston and anywhere in between. I'll even go to Detroit. Just kidding. I'll never go to Detroit.


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## Blake

I'm sure in this journey you'll come to find how wonderfully romantic Schoenberg was. Far from dry intellectualisms that he was so often accused of.


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## scratchgolf

I really wish I could start sooner but I can't sacrifice the holidays, and I won't listen sooner because I want it all on fresh ears.


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## MagneticGhost

Wow!! Sounds like an idea. But I don't envy you. Only one composer for a whole month. I think I'd struggle with such a limited diet whoever the composer was. 
But enough of putting you off.

I'd recommend this set as it's cheap and has some very good performances on. I picked mine up from a 3rd party seller for about £14.








I've always fancied the idea of listening to a composer chronologically - preferably one which I didn't know of much. The nearest I got was trying it out with Schumann as I'd only heard the Piano Concerto. Unfortunately - after the umpteenth Piano piece, my ears screamed out for a change of timbre and the whole exercise came to a premature close. 
I hope you have better luck than I did 
Sincerely Good Luck - and I'll look forward to coming back to see how you got on.

Myself - I'm going to give up beer for January - must be easier


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## Mahlerian

There's a concert of Schoenberg's Quartet No. 1 in D minor in New York on December 15.

http://bachtrack.com/concert-listing/subculture/schoenberg-before-schoenberg/15-december-2014/19-30

I can't imagine coming to that work on a first hearing, though; it's quite long and very dense (it was the one that provoked Mahler's famous "here are four staves and I cannot read them!"


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## Sloe

MagneticGhost said:


> Wow!! Sounds like an idea. But I don't envy you. Only one composer for a whole month. I think I'd struggle with such a limited diet whoever the composer was.
> But enough of putting you off.


I could probably listen to one composer for a whole month but that would be because I would like that music so much that I wants to listen to it all the time. I could probably never listen to music by only one composer for a whole month because I had decided it.


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## scratchgolf

Mahlerian said:


> There's a concert of Schoenberg's Quartet No. 1 in D minor in New York on December 15.
> 
> http://bachtrack.com/concert-listing/subculture/schoenberg-before-schoenberg/15-december-2014/19-30
> 
> I can't imagine coming to that work on a first hearing, though; it's quite long and very dense (it was the one that provoked Mahler's famous "here are four staves and I cannot read them!"


Perhaps I'll make an exception for that piece and do a little homework on it. I'm raising my boys alone though so a trip to NYC in December, and the subsequent hotel rate  might make that difficult. I'll circle it on the calendar though.

As for MagneticGhost, I'm certain it will be a challenge. I really had to do it this way because I feel like I owe everyone here to see it through. Almost like handing your car keys over at the beginning of the night. It's a commitment you can't take back. I've been in some life situations that were less than enjoyable. For extended periods of time too. Sometimes, the simples creature comforts we take for granted can be the most welcomed and rewarding experiences, depending on the context. A hot shower after spending a month on a mountain top in Afghanistan feels amazing. If a month of Schoenberg ends up being the worst experience of the rest of my life, I'll have lived a pretty blessed life. Thanks for the recommendation also. That will definitely be a version I turn to.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I agree, chronological order with his works.

BUT

you are getting an extremely one sided view of the changes in 20th century music because of this. What about Debussy? He was just as important in the harmonic aspect of change from 19th century to 20th century styles, and he was really only one other of the many composers in this time to help the shift. There's also Ives and Stravinsky, both of whom began in a very Romantic aesthetic, Ornstein was the early inventor of the cluster chord which became _so_ important to 20th century composers later on. What about the influence of popular culture? Weill, Krenek, Hindemith etc. also had a part to play in the shift to 20th century styles. Don't forget Sibelius's output! There's a clear distinction between his early works and late works and a very smooth development to more dissonant and structural experimentations.

Maybe after you complete the Schoenberg experiment you could do more experiments with other streams of development....

But yay for schoenberg! you'll have fun!


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## scratchgolf

Thanks. I chose Schoenberg because I had to start somewhere. I've dabbled in Debussy and Sibelius but my listening has been all over the map. After feeling like a pinball, this will feel much more organized and structured. From there, my experiments will remain mostly private but I'll have built a great foundation.


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## binkley

What is your starting opinion of Schoenberg?

Because if I had tried this experiment 15 years ago, when I loathed Schoenberg, I'm afraid a full month of nothing-but would have made that loathing a permanent condition.

What worked for me was immersion in modern/contemporary music that I enjoyed, spiked with brief exposures to works that challenged me. After about a decade of this I challenged myself with Schoenberg and found that I enjoyed it quite a bit.


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## scratchgolf

binkley said:


> What is your starting opinion of Schoenberg?
> 
> Because if I had tried this experiment 15 years ago, when I loathed Schoenberg, I'm afraid a full month of nothing-but would have made that loathing a permanent condition.
> 
> What worked for me was immersion in modern/contemporary music that I enjoyed, spiked with brief exposures to works that challenged me. After about a decade of this I challenged myself with Schoenberg and found that I enjoyed it quite a bit.


I've heard very little of his works. Snippets here and there. A few complete pieces. My starting opinion is I don't like what I've heard but I like even less the fact that many people I respect love his music. At a minimum, I want to understand his music better. Maybe see what others see in him. Get a better understanding of the 12 Tone technique and its relevance in music history. My original intent was to go with Stockhausen or Xenakis. I decided against them because it's too far a leap for me now. That would be a month I wouldn't survive. Not now. Not yet. Schoenberg could potentially open new doors for me, or remind me why I love what I currently love.


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## Chronochromie

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I agree, chronological order with his works.
> 
> BUT
> 
> you are getting an extremely one sided view of the changes in 20th century music because of this. What about Debussy? He was just as important in the harmonic aspect of change from 19th century to 20th century styles, and he was really only one other of the many composers in this time to help the shift. There's also Ives and Stravinsky, both of whom began in a very Romantic aesthetic, Ornstein was the early inventor of the cluster chord which became _so_ important to 20th century composers later on. What about the influence of popular culture? Weill, Krenek, Hindemith etc. also had a part to play in the shift to 20th century styles. Don't forget Sibelius's output! There's a clear distinction between his early works and late works and a very smooth development to more dissonant and structural experimentations.
> 
> Maybe after you complete the Schoenberg experiment you could do more experiments with other streams of development....
> 
> But yay for schoenberg! you'll have fun!


I agree with this. Maybe you could do your Schoenberg marathon, but with some Debussy to wash it down on weekends or something? At least Debussy won't scare your kids and guests! (I hope!)


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## mmsbls

scratchgolf, Best of luck (though it's not really luck of course) on your journey with Schoenberg. I'd be rather surprised if you found you liked everything after this month, but hopefully you'll at least begin to hear the music differently than you do now. I'll be very interested in your reaction to the early works such as Verklärte Nacht and the String Quartet in D. I loved them immediately possibly because I had heard a lot of Mahler and Strauss. I certainly hit the wall with his non-tonal works, and it took me awhile to get through.



binkley said:


> What worked for me was immersion in modern/contemporary music that I enjoyed, spiked with brief exposures to works that challenged me. After about a decade of this I challenged myself with Schoenberg and found that I enjoyed it quite a bit.


This was my experience as well. I listened to _a lot_ of modern and contemporary works and over time I found more and more music was enjoyable (or at least not bizarre, ugly, decidedly unpleasant). The more I listen, the more music seems to open up. I find that I'll hear works that I know I disliked before and wonder, "How did I ever dislike that piece?"

It's an ongoing process, and there are still many works I haven't been able to "crack", but there's time.


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## ArtMusic

Schoenberg's atonal music has a freshness about it in that it is strictly atonal. His violin concerto is a huge contrast to other violin concertos written up to that point in time.


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> Schoenberg's atonal music has a freshness about it in that *it is strictly atonal.* His violin concerto is a huge contrast to other violin concertos written up to that point in time.


What does this mean?

I'm serious, because to me this statement makes no sense whatsoever.


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## ArtMusic

Mahlerian said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> I'm serious, because to me this statement makes no sense whatsoever.


All 12 notes of the chromatic scale, as a manner of speaking. It's a work I am getting around to enjoy quite well. I have a recording of it. I recommend this fine version (plus _Survivor from Warsaw_)


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## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> All 12 notes of the chromatic scale, as a manner of speaking. It's a work I am getting around to enjoy quite well. I have a recording of it. I recommend this fine version (plus _Survivor from Warsaw_)


You can use all 12 notes of the chromatic scale without approaching the style called "atonal."

You can write music using the 12-tone method that sounds very clearly tonal.

To the extent that the word atonal is meaningful at all, it is a continuum, not something that is or is not present.

So what is "strictly atonal" music?


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## binkley

scratchgolf said:


> My starting opinion is I don't like what I've heard but I like even less the fact that many people I respect love his music.


I'm ashamed to admit that my starting opinion was that anyone who claimed to like it was either a disconnected academic or a poseur. At least I've learned from my foolishness, and now I try to adopt the attitude you describe when I hear music I initially don't get.

I still don't really understand the tonal/atonal/12-tone labels. I mean, when I read or see a presentation that relates the interesting sounds with the notes in the score I kinda-sorta get it, but it's never something that I immediately recognize when listening -- and for me it's not at all necessary for enjoyment.


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## violadude

I like the chronological approach. But don't start with Veklarte Nacht, that's too far in!

Start at the very beginning, with these bad boys.











I think you'll like them quite a bit.


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## GioCar

A marvellous and brave project!
But please, don't listen to his music as if it were wallpaper music (at the gymn, in the car, ...)

For sure, you'll be different after that. Good luck!


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## scratchgolf

binkley said:


> I'm ashamed to admit that my starting opinion was that anyone who claimed to like it was either a disconnected academic or a poseur. At least I've learned from my foolishness, and now I try to adopt the attitude you describe when I hear music I initially don't get.
> 
> I still don't really understand the tonal/atonal/12-tone labels. I mean, when I read or see a presentation that relates the interesting sounds with the notes in the score I kinda-sorta get it, but it's never something that I immediately recognize when listening -- and for me it's not at all necessary for enjoyment.


No need to be ashamed, as it makes perfect sense to me. I'm also convinced that some are poseurs. Humans tend to have a need to fit in. My reasons for wanting to like something parallel other's reasons for pretending to like something. I love Scotch Whisky and enjoy the taste of many single malts. My father tastes it and what he tastes is what I hear in Xenakis. He respects the fact I enjoy the taste. He just can't understand why. I think Gin tastes awful but know for a fact some don't. With this experiment, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything to anyone. It's a true experiment in that I wanna see what happens. I'm willing to put in the work to get the results. I could easily sit here and praise music I don't enjoy in an effort to impress the in crowd, but I'd only be fooling myself.


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## scratchgolf

GioCar said:


> A marvellous and brave project!
> But please, don't listen to his music as if it were wallpaper music (at the gymn, in the car, ...)
> 
> For sure, you'll be different after that. Good luck!


Thank you, I disagree, and thank you. What some call wallpaper music, I call immersion and exposure. Mahler grabbed me from casual listening and opened up his secrets to me. I still remember the day his 2nd Symphony let me in. Thru a combination of focused listening and background music, it started making sense. Then one day it hit me, and not while I was focused on it. It was like getting blindsided by a linebacker. Then again, I don't drive much and I forgot the directions to the gym, so......maybe it will all work out.


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## Blake

scratchgolf said:


> No need to be ashamed, as it makes perfect sense to me. I'm also convinced that some are poseurs. Humans tend to have a need to fit in. My reasons for wanting to like something parallel other's reasons for pretending to like something. I love Scotch Whisky and enjoy the taste of many single malts. My father tastes it and what he tastes is what I hear in Xenakis. He respects the fact I enjoy the taste. He just can't understand why. I think Gin tastes awful but know for a fact some don't. With this experiment, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything to anyone. It's a true experiment in that I wanna see what happens. I'm willing to put in the work to get the results. I could easily sit here and praise music I don't enjoy in an effort to impress the in crowd, but I'd only be fooling myself.


You're already in, dude. It's the attitude that counts.


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## Dave Whitmore

Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'm not sure I could immerse myself in the music of someone I don't know well, especially if it's someone whose music I don't like all that much. But good luck to you. I hope it doesn't drive you insane!


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## scratchgolf

Dave Whitmore said:


> Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'm not sure I could immerse myself in the music of someone I don't know well, especially if it's someone whose music I don't like all that much. But good luck to you. I hope it doesn't drive you insane!


My sanity went before my hairline. And I didn't promise I wouldn't drink. I was very careful to not put that in the rules. I even doubled checked to make sure I didn't accidentally include it.


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## binkley

scratchgolf said:


> My reasons for wanting to like something parallel other's reasons for pretending to like something. I love Scotch Whisky and enjoy the taste of many single malts. My father tastes it and what he tastes is what I hear in Xenakis. He respects the fact I enjoy the taste. He just can't understand why. I think Gin tastes awful but know for a fact some don't. With this experiment, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything to anyone. It's a true experiment in that I wanna see what happens. I'm willing to put in the work to get the results. I could easily sit here and praise music I don't enjoy in an effort to impress the in crowd, but I'd only be fooling myself.


Well you've clearly got an open mind, so I believe there is hope that you will ultimately come to your senses and like Gin.


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## scratchgolf

binkley said:


> Well you've clearly got an open mind, so I believe there is hope that you will ultimately come to your senses and like Gin.


That's my February experiment. No water. No milk.


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## Woodduck

Speaking as one who believes that the harmonic hierarchy we call tonality is akin to the hierarchy of Dante's angels (and was it Bernstein who said "Tonality is God"? The Tonic bless you, Lenny), coming to terms with twelve-tone music remains a bit of an uphill struggle. That I don't struggle with it too hard, or too often, I consider a prerogative of old age.

But what I wanted to say is: don't have expectations of any kind. You may just possibly never love the stuff, even if you come to understand pretty well how it's made and why. Also realize that there are different ways of liking something, different things you can like it for; I've often been amazed at how different people fixate on completely different aspects of the same music. I find some of Schoenberg's sounds and textures quite arresting, and can enjoy on a level of admiration the complexity of his thinking. He can be very dramatic at times, and very atmospheric: if you like opera, particuarly of the orchestrally opulent Wagner-Strauss sort, you'll naturally want to wallow in the _Gurrelieder_ (which is early, of course), but don't hesitate about _Moses and Aron_, one of the 20th century's most striking operas. You may even want to go out and buy a golden calf afterward.

There was a time when the only Schoenbeg I would listen to was _Verklaerte Nacht_. Now I have a goodly percentage of his output in my collection. I can't say I often feel like putting him on, but it's reassuring to me to know that now that we're into the twenty-first century I'm getting out of the nineteenth (just kidding; I love lots of twentieth century music).

In a whole month you should be able to plow through most of his music, but by the end of the month you may need to attach a few more horses to that plow!

:tiphat:


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## Blake

Woodduck said:


> Speaking as one who believes that the harmonic hierarchy we call tonality is akin to the hierarchy of Dante's angels (and was it Bernstein who said "Tonality is God"? The Tonic bless you, Lenny), coming to terms with twelve-tone music remains a bit of an uphill struggle. That I don't struggle with it too hard, or too often, I consider a prerogative of old age.
> 
> But what I wanted to say is: don't have expectations of any kind. You may just possibly never love the stuff, even if you come to understand pretty well how it's made and why. Also realize that there are different ways of liking something, different things you can like it for; I've often been amazed at how different people fixate on completely different aspects of the same music. I find some of Schoenberg's sounds and textures quite arresting, and can enjoy on a level of admiration the complexity of his thinking. He can be very dramatic at times, and very atmospheric: if you like opera, particuarly of the orchestrally opulent Wagner-Strauss sort, you'll naturally want to wallow in the _Gurrelieder_ (which is early, of course), but don't hesitate about _Moses and Aron_, one of the 20th century's most striking operas. You may even want to go out and buy a golden calf afterward.
> 
> There was a time when the only Schoenbeg I would listen to was _Verklaerte Nacht_. Now I have a goodly percentage of his output in my collection. I can't say I often feel like putting him on, but it's reassuring to me to know that now that we're into the twenty-first century I'm getting out of the nineteenth (just kidding; I love lots of twentieth century music).
> 
> In a whole month you should be able to plow through most of his music, but by the end of the month you may need to attach a few more horses to that plow!
> 
> :tiphat:


Of course, I don't think there is any _modern-collective_ around here. It seems what it narrows down to is the openness to explore, and that's what I admire. It doesn't mean a jot who likes what composer the most. It's the panoramic viewpoint that I enjoy discussing with.

What you like is up to you, but if you can get to the understanding that art is an utterly vast array of expression... then we can have some interesting conversations.


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## brotagonist

I hope you aren't setting yourself up for failure. There is a lot of truly grand music by Schoenberg, but to hear it 24/7 for a full month without anything else between discs is a lot. If you think it works for you, why not? Personally, I might go with one work or one hour or one disc a night of close listening, plus a couple of background spins in the car or while doing stuff at home, just to feel the ambiance of the music and as preparation for the more committed listens. You could also weave the listening into a broader experience of Schoenberg's time by taking some of the heat off between discs with something you might find less taxing. It all sort of weaves together and little forays will pay off with your main project. Nevertheless, we are all different listeners, so what works for one might not work for another. Good luck. I'd be very surprised if you didn't like some of it.


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## Mahlerian

violadude said:


> I like the chronological approach. But don't start with Veklarte Nacht, that's too far in!
> 
> Start at the very beginning, with these bad boys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'll like them quite a bit.


Start even earlier!


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## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> Speaking as one who believes that the harmonic hierarchy we call tonality is akin to the hierarchy of Dante's angels (and was it Bernstein who said "Tonality is God"? The Tonic bless you, Lenny), coming to terms with twelve-tone music remains a bit of an uphill struggle. That I don't struggle with it too hard, or too often, I consider a prerogative of old age.
> 
> But what I wanted to say is: don't have expectations of any kind. You may just possibly never love the stuff, even if you come to understand pretty well how it's made and why. Also realize that there are different ways of liking something, different things you can like it for; I've often been amazed at how different people fixate on completely different aspects of the same music. I find some of Schoenberg's sounds and textures quite arresting, and can enjoy on a level of admiration the complexity of his thinking. He can be very dramatic at times, and very atmospheric: if you like opera, particuarly of the orchestrally opulent Wagner-Strauss sort, you'll naturally want to wallow in the _Gurrelieder_ (which is early, of course), but don't hesitate about _Moses and Aron_, one of the 20th century's most striking operas. You may even want to go out and buy a golden* calf* afterward.
> 
> There was a time when the only Schoenbeg I would listen to was _Verklaerte Nacht_. Now I have a goodly percentage of his output in my collection. I can't say I often feel like putting him on, but it's reassuring to me to know that now that we're into the twenty-first century I'm getting out of the nineteenth (just kidding; I love lots of twentieth century music).
> 
> In a whole month you should be able to plow through most of his music, but by the end of the month you may need to attach a few more horses to that plow!
> 
> :tiphat:


Now don't go to irretrievably to pieces getting conciliatory. _;D_

The _Gurrelieder_ is wonderful soaring vitality but with _Moses and Aaron_ I prefer to be de-_*calf*_-inated-- which would be, I believe, a first with me.


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## Woodduck

Vesuvius said:


> Of course, I don't think there is any _modern-collective_ around here. It seems what it narrows down to is the openness to explore, and that's what I admire. It doesn't mean a jot who likes what composer the most. It's the panoramic viewpoint that I enjoy discussing with.
> 
> What you like is up to you, but if you can get to the understanding that art is an utterly vast array of expression... then we can have some interesting conversations.


I'm trying to figure out what part of this post refers to anything I said. It's strange to be quoted and then not referred to.

Is there something you're trying to tell me, Vesuvius? Don't be afraid. I don't bite (often).


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## Dustin

Woodduck said:


> I'm trying to figure out what part of this post refers to anything I said. It's strange to be quoted and then not referred to.
> 
> Is there something you're trying to tell me, Vesuvius? Don't be afraid. I don't bite (often).


Scratchgolf I like the plan! I may plan for myself a mini-version of what your doing...like one day haha.


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## Blake

Woodduck said:


> I'm trying to figure out what part of this post refers to anything I said. It's strange to be quoted and then not referred to.
> 
> Is there something you're trying to tell me, Vesuvius? Don't be afraid. I don't bite (often).


I was bouncing off of your personal stance and making a broader one. You can handle it. I have faith in you. 

Although I made the leap without much foreplay.... again, I'm sure you can handle my personal disregard.


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## Weston

Best of luck on the experiment. Immersion may be the answer for some. I believe it is beginning to work for me with Schoenberg though I'm not entirely there yet. I think for me it's not anything about his innovations. I can listen to a lot of composers a lot more modern or contemporary, but dissimilar. I think it must be something about Schoenberg 's music itself that hasn't grabbed me yet.

Verklärte Nacht for instance - everyone is supposed to adore it on first hearing. For me it's kind of sort of okay enough I suppose. Pelleas und Melisande? Even more underwhelming (at the moment).

But, the *Suite for 2 Clarinets, Bass Clarinet, Violin, Viola, Cello and Piano, Op. 29* is very "out there" modern and mightily interesting. I think I came very close to grasping it at work while it came on the iPod at random. The instruments seem to have a complex conversation I could almost follow.

So I wonder if the more experimental Schoenberg might work better as my entry level, then let that be a gateway to the earlier Schoenberg in the same way late Beethoven became a gateway to earlier (and I thought Mozart imitating ) Beethoven. That's me, always going against the flow. But I'm really wanting to grasp Schoenberg, also hoping he will be a gateway to other difficult composers, like Webern or Boulez.


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## Woodduck

Vesuvius said:


> I was bouncing off of your personal stance and making a broader one. You can handle it. I have faith in you.
> 
> Although I made the leap without much foreplay.... again, *I'm sure you can handle my personal disregard*.


Yes, I get a lot of practice here on TC. Disregard, misinterpretation, and misrepresentation. Not from you, of course. :angel:


----------



## Albert7

Wow, gotta admire you Scratchgolf for doing this. I'm still mustering up the patience to listen to Morton Feldman's String Quartet No. 2 in one go.


----------



## KenOC

Woodduck said:


> Yes, I get a lot of practice here on TC. Disregard, misinterpretation, and misrepresentation. Not from you, of course. :angel:


Ah, my specialties! Always nice to be appreciated. I gave you a "like"!


----------



## Blake

Woodduck said:


> Yes, I get a lot of practice here on TC. Disregard, misinterpretation, and misrepresentation. Not from you, of course. :angel:


I had some ideas that I wanted to express, and your post was the closest one for me to use as a springboard. I seem to keep running into people getting upset that I'm not so concerned with them personally, haha. It's simply ideas on a screen.

But enough derailing... Schoenberg + Scratch; I'm into it. Looking forward to hearing about the excursion.


----------



## starthrower

I don't see the need to start at the beginning. As for Verklarte Nacht, I've never been too crazy about it. The first work I heard was 5 pieces for orchestra on the Dorati 2nd Viennese School album. And I loved it right away. I love the vocal music too. That's what I've been listening to the most.

I wouldn't listen to everything by just one conductor. Yes, that Boulez box is cheap, and much of it is great, but not all of Boulez's interpretations grab my ear. Try different performances of the same pieces.


----------



## Woodduck

Marschallin Blair said:


> Now don't go to irretrievably to pieces getting conciliatory. _;D_
> 
> The _Gurrelieder_ is wonderful soaring vitality but with _Moses and Aaron_ I prefer to be de-_calf_-inated-- which would be, I believe, a first with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 57114


But the golden calf is all over that woman, whoever she is!


----------



## Woodduck

Vesuvius said:


> I had some ideas that I wanted to express, and your post was the closest one for me to use as a springboard. *I seem to keep running into people getting upset that I'm not so concerned with them personally, haha.* It's simply ideas on a screen.
> 
> But enough derailing... Schoenberg + Scratch; I'm into it. Looking forward to hearing about the excursion.


But are you quite sure that simply being quoted by you isn't more personal concern than they want, ha ha?


----------



## Blake

Woodduck said:


> But are you quite sure that simply being quoted by you isn't more personal concern than they want, ha ha?


You just have to keep in mind that all anyone knows of each other here are the ideas presented. There is no other method of communication. It's simply a play of concepts on a screen... with a cool name and an avatar attached.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> But the golden calf is all over that woman, whoever she is!












Its all over when she walks into a _room_.

Bronzed Aussie Super Model Elle Mac_*pher*_son is a _DEEEEE_-vaa. . . but Schoenberg's _Gurrelieder_ is undeniably glorious as well. _;D_


----------



## Mandryka

I don't know about this chronological approach. The first piece by Schoenberg I heard was Moses und Aaron, I saw a production in London with Solti, and I still think that was the best place I could have started - the music is original, thought provoking, accessible, full of feeling, and there are many very great and easily obtainable performances on record. I say begin at the end and work backwards.

Over the past year I've been listening to a lot of Schoenberg - mainly the quartets but also some piano music. I'm mentioning that bacause I think a month of Schoenberg is a bad idea too, just as I think a month of any other composer would be a bad idea. A month is not long enough and you will get bored of just Schoenberg in the month.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> Yes, I get a lot of practice here on TC. Disregard, misinterpretation, and misrepresentation. Not from you, of course. :angel:


Duckie, I think you should contact You Tube for copyright infringement since someone's stealing your Diva lines:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> But are you quite sure that simply being quoted by you isn't more personal concern than they want, ha ha?


All is vanity.

- It is for Me, anyway.


----------



## Woodduck

Vesuvius said:


> You just have to keep in mind that all anyone knows of each other here are the ideas presented. There is no other method of communication. It's simply a play of concepts on a screen... with a cool name and an avatar attached.


From the volcano erupts truth. Let Pompeii and Herculaneum be warned.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Woodduck said:


> From the volcano erupts truth. Let Pompeii and Herculaneum be warned.


He blows truth? But I know elide.

(phonetic pun: 'elide' is "to omit or to gloss over." "He lied" sounds like "elide.")

-- I added this parenthetic because a dear friend just PM'ed me, acting like an autistic blonde who just didn't get it.


----------



## GioCar

albertfallickwang said:


> Wow, gotta admire you Scratchgolf for doing this. I'm still mustering up the patience to listen to Morton Feldman's String Quartet No. 2 in one go.


Off-topic: just to remind you that the 4th nomination round in the TC Top 100+ Recommended String Quartet List is now open, and will close in few hours...
http://www.talkclassical.com/34778-tc-top-100-recommended-22.html#post762906


----------



## violadude

Mahlerian said:


> Start even earlier!


I forgot that piece was written earlier.

I think this quartet is a good place to start. I know Scratchgolf is a fan of Schubert, so the early lieder op. 1, 2 and 3 I thought would be a good place too. However Schoenberg's early lieder style I would say is closer to Brahms than Schubert, especially the opus 1 pieces I linked.


----------



## Woodduck

This recording has some very early piano pieces, some of them fragments. They show the Brahms in him.

http://www.amazon.com/Shadows-Fragm...7667&sr=1-15&keywords=schoenberg+piano+brahms


----------



## violadude

I think it's interesting that Brahms and Wagner in their day were seen as such polar opposite "camps" and yet the German composers of a couple generations later such as Schoenberg saw both as a massive influence on their own music.


----------



## scratchgolf

I went to bed with an unrated thread. Woke up........5 stars!!!


----------



## brotagonist

Marschallin Blair said:


>


Holy Crap! Does she look scorched  I bet she keeps the dermatologists busy, with all of that sun-damaged skin  She still can turn heads, no doubt, if you don't look closely


----------



## Stavrogin

Interesting plan.
I didn't read the whole thread so this might already have been addressed.
Did you consider the possibility to leave a 5% of your January listening to something else?

It may be beneficial, the same way a sip of fresh water is while tasting whisky.


----------



## scratchgolf

Stavrogin said:


> Interesting plan.
> I didn't read the whole thread so this might already have been addressed.
> Did you consider the possibility to leave a 5% of your January listening to something else?
> 
> It may be beneficial, the same way a sip of fresh water is while tasting whisky.


I had considered this. Selecting one Bruckner and one Sibelius symphony to offset the Schoenberg. Two symphonies I'm not yet familiar with. My fear was I'd run to them too frequently. Never underestimate a person who's looking for an out. If they want out bad enough, they will squeeze through a PVC pipe. I know myself all too well.


----------



## Blake

scratchgolf said:


> I had considered this. Selecting one Bruckner and one Sibelius symphony to offset the Schoenberg. Two symphonies I'm not yet familiar with. My fear was I'd run to them too frequently. Never underestimate a person who's looking for an out. If they want out bad enough, they will squeeze through a PVC pipe. I know myself all too well.


Yea, you have time to get a little game-plan. It may be beneficial to occasionally throw in a couple other composers to keep the dynamics fresh.


----------



## Stavrogin

scratchgolf said:


> I had considered this. Selecting one Bruckner and one Sibelius symphony to offset the Schoenberg. Two symphonies I'm not yet familiar with. My fear was I'd run to them too frequently. Never underestimate a person who's looking for an out. If they want out bad enough, they will squeeze through a PVC pipe. I know myself all too well.


I see your point.
However, I don't see how telling yourself "I will listen to Schoenberg 100% of the times" is any different from "I will listen to Schoenberg 90% of the times", in this respect.
I mean, if you want out, you wil get out of the 100% restriction too.
Sure it may be _a bit _safer your way... but, imo, not so much to compensate for the lack of the sip of fresh water.

But hey you're the boss


----------



## brotagonist

Honestly, I don't know why you would need to seek a way out. Many extremely lush and Romantic pieces have already been suggested--Gurrelieder, Pelleas und Melisande, Verklärte Nacht--but the two Chamber Symphonies are perennial favourites that ought not to be difficult. The Serenade Op. 24 and Suite Op. 29 are gorgeous pieces that flow with beautiful rhythms that challenge anyone to describe Schoenberg's music as difficult or sterile. Pierrot Lunaire is a classic that I might liken to burlesque or cabaret. There is an English version available (I have never heard it). The poetry is grand. Definitely read the texts! They are extremely evocative. The Ode to Napoleon! The String Quartets! The Wind Quintet! I could go on and on... This music tickles all the right parts.


----------



## Albert7

Scratchgolf, once you finish up Scheonberg I would recommend listening to the complete works of Anton von Webern in order of opus. Honestly it is very relevatory to see the evolution of a composer over the course of six discs. DG has the complete works for Webern by the way.


----------



## scratchgolf

People with an "all or nothing" mentality know why 90% isn't possible. You're talking to the guy who purchased a complete set of Bach cantatas, 10 albums, countless discs, 1108 songs, or 2.2 days of listening, on a whim. I don't dip my toes in and check temperature. I belly flop.


----------



## Stavrogin

scratchgolf said:


> People with an "all or nothing" mentality know why 90% isn't possible. You're talking to the guy who purchased a complete set of Bach cantatas, 10 albums, countless discs, 1108 songs, or 2.2 days of listening, on a whim. I don't dip my toes in and check temperature. I belly flop.


 Very clear now.


----------



## Woodduck

albertfallickwang said:


> Scratchgolf, once you finish up Scheonberg I would recommend listening to the complete works of Anton von Webern in order of opus. Honestly it is very relevatory to see the evolution of a composer over the course of six discs. DG has the complete works for Webern by the way.


That would be the last place some of us would go after a month of straight Schoenberg!

How about some Alma Deutscher? :devil:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

scratchgolf said:


> I went to bed with an unrated thread. Woke up........5 stars!!!
> 
> View attachment 57134


I like that guy, but I like the Rex Kwon-do guy better.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

brotagonist said:


> Holy Crap! Does she look scorched  I bet she keeps the dermatologists busy, with all of that sun-damaged skin  She still can turn heads, no doubt, if you don't look closely


I understand not everyone in their wrinkled golf shirt has access to the sun clinic-- or is Runway Royalty, for that matter.

_;D_


----------



## scratchgolf

My first Schoenberg purchase. $45 for 5 discs of chamber music by the Schoenberg Quartet. This should keep me busy for those unavoidable "out of the house" moments.


----------



## Blake

scratchgolf said:


> View attachment 57336
> 
> 
> My first Schoenberg purchase. $45 for 5 discs of chamber music by the Schoenberg Quartet. This should keep me busy for those unavoidable "out of the house" moments.


What a great set this is. One in which I've had many hours of enjoyment.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

brotagonist said:


> Holy Crap! Does she look scorched  I bet she keeps the dermatologists busy, with all of that sun-damaged skin  She still can turn heads, no doubt, if you don't look closely


'Straya, mate


----------



## MagneticGhost

So - it's only a few short hours till the beginning of the new year. I just wanted to know how our Schoenberg Combatant is preparing for the month ahead. Are you luxuriating in tonality before the dodecaphonic explorations ahead. Or are you clearing yourself of all extraneous musical sound to start with a clean Zen mind.
We need a few pre-match thoughts Sir.


----------



## scratchgolf

Well, well. I only own a single Schoenberg recording so I'd like to maybe grab 2 or 3 more before beginning. I've decided my only break from Arnie will be the Tinychat sessions, but I'm not sure how much of a break Lucier and Boulez will really give me.









I own this so any additional recs would be very welcomed. I really haven't changed my listening habits in preparation and I'll be putting a pretty in depth Ries exploration aside to focus on Schoenberg.


----------



## Mandryka

scratchgolf said:


> Well, well. I only own a single Schoenberg recording so I'd like to maybe grab 2 or 3 more before beginning. I've decided my only break from Arnie will be the Tinychat sessions, but I'm not sure how much of a break Lucier and Boulez will really give me.
> 
> View attachment 59874
> 
> 
> I own this so any additional recs would be very welcomed. I really haven't changed my listening habits in preparation and I'll be putting a pretty in depth Ries exploration aside to focus on Schoenberg.


I suggest you get this









Or if you want more chamber music, this (for the trio)


----------



## scratchgolf

I just looked for both and found neither. I guess I should mention, I'm limiting myself to Amazon digital downloads for ease of access and time constraints. I'll consider CD purchases through Amazon but I've had to wait for 4 weeks before to receive a single album. I ordered a Renaissance album 2 weeks ago and it won't arrive until Jan 16th.


----------



## Muse Wanderer

I highly recommend Schoenberg piano works as played by the one and only Maurizio Pollini.

I listened repeatedly to each work rather than the whole CD at once. 
Eventually everything clicked... and by eventually I mean after six months or so.

Now I find these works stunning especially:
Three Piano Pieces Op.11 - truly breathtaking, 
Piano Concerto Op.42 - dare I say more romantic than Brahms! (despite its serial root)
Suite for Piano Op.25 - dancing to the tune of 12-tone could be fun.

Enjoy!


----------



## ahammel

I'll be following this closely! Schoenberg is one if my favourites. 

Make sure you watch the interview with Mitsuko Uchida about the piano concerto. It's adorable.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

ahammel said:


> I'll be following this closely! Schoenberg is one if my favourites.
> 
> Make sure you watch the interview with Mitsuko Uchida about the piano concerto. It's adorable.


Indeed (to both of your statements)! And why not also watch Hilarious Hahn's video in which she is interviewed by Schönberg's grandson (was it grandson?) about the violin concerto.

edit: And why wouldn't I also give the link:






It was indeed his grandson. He does look like his grandfather.


----------



## Mahlerian

Boulez's Sony recordings cover a wide range of Schoenberg's masterpieces (Gurrelieder, Moses und Aron, 5 Orchestral Pieces, Variations for Orchestra), but unfortunately I don't think the set is available as Mp3s.


----------



## Stavrogin

Boulez' comb over is surely harder on the eyes than Schoenberg's music is on the ears.


----------



## scratchgolf

Mahlerian said:


> Boulez's Sony recordings cover a wide range of Schoenberg's masterpieces (Gurrelieder, Moses und Aron, 5 Orchestral Pieces, Variations for Orchestra), but unfortunately I don't think the set is available as Mp3s.


Thanks. That one is in the mail. Says I'll get it 2 Jan.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Mahlerian said:


> Boulez's Sony recordings cover a wide range of Schoenberg's masterpieces (Gurrelieder, Moses und Aron, 5 Orchestral Pieces, Variations for Orchestra), but unfortunately I don't think the set is available as Mp3s.
> 
> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51u-8Lf2o5L._SX425_.jpg


I have the die* Jakobsleiter by Boulez. I am very upset by his decision to leave out some of the sprechstimme parts. Tempos, balance, coherence of playing... bah, I don't care about any of those if I can't hear a lovely female chorus sprechsinging _Ein regenbogen..._

*now that's a linguistic disaster!










edit: Apparently my image linking was a disaster too.


----------



## Mandryka

scratchgolf said:


> I just looked for both and found neither. I guess I should mention, I'm limiting myself to Amazon digital downloads for ease of access and time constraints. I'll consider CD purchases through Amazon but I've had to wait for 4 weeks before to receive a single album. I ordered a Renaissance album 2 weeks ago and it won't arrive until Jan 16th.


In that case how about this









Accept no other Pierrot by Boulez.


----------



## scratchgolf

Mandryka said:


> In that case how about this
> 
> View attachment 59889
> 
> 
> Accept no other Pierrot by Boulez.


I couldn't find this anywhere of Amazon. Any other Schoenberg/Boulez recs? There are a few available.

Kibbles. I have the Chamber Symphony but I'll look for that version online/Youtube. Thanks.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

scratchgolf said:


> I couldn't find this anywhere of Amazon. Any other Schoenberg/Boulez recs? There are a few available.
> 
> Kibbles. I have the Chamber Symphony but I'll look for that version online/Youtube. Thanks.


Oh, I was more criticizing the Jakobsleiter version on that CD than I was suggesting the Chamber symphony. Apologies for my confusedness in my writing.


----------



## Mahlerian

scratchgolf said:


> Kibbles. I have the Chamber Symphony but I'll look for that version online/Youtube. Thanks.


The disc he shows is part of the Sony/Boulez set.

With the two sets above, the first thing I can think of that you'll still be lacking are the lieder (aside from the op. 22 orchestral songs and the Gurrelieder), many of which are from the early part of his career and all of which are worthwhile. Book of the Hanging Gardens is a masterpiece.

Edit: Oh, and Pelleas und Melisande; I forgot that the Boulez/Sony set didn't include it.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Mahlerian said:


> Book of the Hanging Gardens is a masterpiece.


That it indeed is. The atmosphere is incredible in those songs.


----------



## scratchgolf

I think my current album and new purchase will provide me with plenty of Schoenberg, when supplemented by Youtube viewing. I'll probably hold future purchases until I've experienced a bit, but recommendations are still highly welcomed for current viewing. Thanks to everyone who's taken time to assist me here. This should prove an exciting and rewarding month of exploration.


----------



## scratchgolf

The Boulez arrived in the mail yesterday and I'm ripping the 11 discs to my Mac now. I haven't listened to any music for 2 days but I'll begin shortly.


----------



## starthrower

scratchgolf said:


> The Boulez arrived in the mail yesterday and I'm ripping the 11 discs to my Mac now. I haven't listened to any music for 2 days but I'll begin shortly.


I have most of those recordings on earlier editions. Tons of great stuff there!


----------



## violadude

scratchgolf said:


> The Boulez arrived in the mail yesterday and I'm ripping the 11 discs to my Mac now. I haven't listened to any music for 2 days but I'll begin shortly.


Haven't listened to any music for 2 days? What is this strange combination of words? I can't quite decipher what it means.


----------



## ArtMusic

I had a similar Schoenberg experiment. It was to listen to his pieces, a selected few over a short period. It was mainly his concertos and orchestral works, plus an opera. I think these pieces were really written more for one who can read music as it was more revealing to read the score and listen at the same time (not that I managed to follow it perfectly all the time but mostly did), than to approach his atonal works as if listening to any normal classical tonal pieces.


----------



## Albert7

I just procured two versions of his Moses and Aaron... one conducted by Solti and the other by Boulez. Looking forward to comparing both.


----------



## brotagonist

ArtMusic said:


> ...than to approach his atonal works as if listening to any normal classical tonal pieces.


"normal" versus _abnormal_ classical pieces? "atonal" versus _tonal_?

I simply don't understand what any of this has to do with the listener  All you do is listen. There is no special technique for one 'type' of music versus another. I don't know what your music training is, but mine is pretty much zilch, so all of these technical distinctions are meaningless to me. It's all just a series of notes arranged according to the composer's set of rules governing how this is to be done. When I really listen, the order starts to make sense. There's the beauty :tiphat:


----------



## Mahlerian

ArtMusic said:


> I think these pieces were really written more for one who can read music as it was more revealing to read the score and listen at the same time (not that I managed to follow it perfectly all the time but mostly did), than to approach his atonal works as if listening to any normal classical tonal pieces.


What if following the score is exactly how I approach many tonal pieces? It helps you to hear things more easily.

I listen to Schoenberg exactly the way I listen to Brahms or Mozart or Bach, following themes and their development, hearing the harmony and counterpoint, taking in the formal outline, and just being seduced by the sound of it.


----------



## scratchgolf

Last night, after returning from my poker game (up $427.00 thank you) I settled down and listened to the complete Gurre-Lieder for Soloists, Chorus and Orchestra. This was not the Schoenberg I was promised nor expecting. Absolutely sublime music. I still have the haunting voices dancing in my head. What a wonderful discovery. It surely can't all be this easy, can it?


----------



## Mahlerian

scratchgolf said:


> Last night, after returning from my poker game (up $427.00 thank you) I settled down and listened to the complete Gurre-Lieder for Soloists, Chorus and Orchestra. This was not the Schoenberg I was promised nor expecting. Absolutely sublime music. I still have the haunting voices dancing in my head. What a wonderful discovery. It surely can't all be this easy, can it?


Gurre-Lieder has always been one of his best-received works, and it got a standing ovation at its premiere. Unfortunately, it was premiered over ten years after the majority of it had been written, and his style had changed a good bit in the meantime.


----------



## scratchgolf

I've spent most of the morning listening to Chamber Symphonies 1 and 2. I plan to dedicate the next few days to becoming familiar with these two works. I'll reserve judgment until I'm a bit more comfortable with them both.


----------



## brotagonist

^ They are both beautiful and not the scary Schoenberg :lol:


----------



## scratchgolf

brotagonist said:


> ^ They are both beautiful and not the scary Schoenberg :lol:


Then I'm further from my goal than I first thought :lol:

A month is certainly too short a time to truly appreciate his entire catalogue and I'm defeating the purpose if I keep falling back on his more "user friendly" works. I think I'll continue dedicating a few days to various works and then return to them towards the end of the month. Then again, my main goals were to respect and appreciate his contribution to music and that's already been accomplished.


----------



## Blake

scratchgolf said:


> Then I'm further from my goal than I first thought :lol:
> 
> A month is certainly too short a time to truly appreciate his entire catalogue and I'm defeating the purpose if I keep falling back on his more "user friendly" works. I think I'll continue dedicating a few days to various works and then return to them towards the end of the month. Then again, my main goals were to respect and appreciate his contribution to music and that's already been accomplished.


I think you're moving about this in a good way. You may find that his "scariness" is quite exaggerated.

Pelleas und Melisande, Piano Concerto, Verklärte Nacht, Violin Concerto, Concerto for String Quartet and Orchestra, Book of Hanging Gardens, and more... all beautiful stuff.


----------



## brotagonist

I haven't been following your progress, but, if I understand correctly, you were going to devote the entire month of January to Schoenberg. Correct? So, it's only the 5th today and you are coming to the end of the first decade of the Twentieth Century, more or less. I think you're pretty much on course. There really isn't all that much, unfortunately. Despite popular misconceptions, the twelve-tone pieces from the 1920s onward are no less "user-friendly." I feel he maintains his deep connection to the Romantic throughout. The music has that heady atmosphere, but with an added rhythmic flow that is intoxicating in itself.


----------



## scratchgolf

Yes. All of January. I haven't exactly followed Opus numbers but I'm trying to stay somewhat chronological. The pieces I enjoy immediately get set aside quickly so I can focus more on challenging works. I can always return to the instant grabbers at a later date.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Mahlerian said:


> What if following the score is exactly how I approach many tonal pieces? It helps you to hear things more easily.
> 
> I listen to Schoenberg exactly the way I listen to Brahms or Mozart or Bach, following themes and their development, hearing the harmony and counterpoint, taking in the formal outline, and just being seduced by the sound of it.


I'd love to have the scores of all of Schoenberg, but personally, I think the score is essential to follow Pelleas und Melisande. Sure, it's "tonal" (i.e., Strauss/Brahms tonality with a healthy smattering of vagrant chords), but so much is going on with the continuous development of themes, I get lost without it.


----------



## Manxfeeder

scratchgolf said:


> Last night, after returning from my poker game (up $427.00 thank you) I settled down and listened to the complete Gurre-Lieder for Soloists, Chorus and Orchestra. This was not the Schoenberg I was promised nor expecting. Absolutely sublime music.


After harboring for several years an anti-Schoenberg prejudice, a local attorney suggested I listen to that. (I wish I could have picked him up as a client; we spent a couple hours just talking about Schoenberg). That was the piece that hooked me into his music, and I haven't been unhooked since.


----------



## Kibbles Croquettes

Mahlerian said:


> Gurre-Lieder has always been one of his best-received works, and it got a standing ovation at its premiere. Unfortunately, it was premiered over ten years after the majority of it had been written, and his style had changed a good bit in the meantime.


That's true and I know your point hasn't got anything to do with this but I just have to say that Gurre-Lieder is a fantastic work. The closing chorus ("seht die sonne") is unbelievable.


----------



## Chronochromie

Kibbles Croquettes said:


> That's true and I know your point hasn't got anything to do with this but I just have to say that Gurre-Lieder is a fantastic work. The closing chorus ("seht die sonne") is unbelievable.


Yes, today I heard it for the first time. The whole third part and the finale blew me away.


----------



## scratchgolf

Der Leiermann said:


> Yes, today I heard it for the first time. The whole third part and the finale blew me away.


I'm actually shocked I haven't seen it suggested as a Schoenberg starting point in any of the endless "Schoenberg ruined my life" threads. If I had ever heard it casually, and had to guess who composed it, I'd be guessing for quite some time. Beautiful work for sure. I'm glad you liked it too.


----------



## Chronochromie

scratchgolf said:


> I'm actually shocked I haven't seen it suggested as a Schoenberg starting point in any of the endless "Schoenberg ruined my life" threads. If I had ever heard it casually, and had to guess who composed it, I'd be guessing for quite some time. Beautiful work for sure. I'm glad you liked it too.


True, although I did see Verklarte Nacht suggested a lot, another good starting point, but I don't like it as much as Gurre-Lieder. Maybe it isn't mentioned often due to its lenght?


----------



## Mahlerian

Der Leiermann said:


> True, although I did see Verklarte Nacht suggested a lot, another good starting point, but I don't like it as much as Gurre-Lieder. Maybe it isn't mentioned often due to its lenght?


Verklarte Nacht has long been Schoenberg's "hit", and one of the few pieces of his regularly played on classical radio. It's also a very tightly written, melodically rich piece. Gurrelieder was written a bit later (and then finished a decade after that), and it isn't nearly as straightforward in some ways, and somewhat less concise (to say nothing of comparing it to later Schoenberg), but to those steeped in the lush Straussian/Wagnerian orchestra, I suppose it makes a good entry point.

It all sounds like Schoenberg to me, though. He wrote some fine choral works in all of his styles, including some very charming folksong arrangements, that I think make another good entry point.

Arrangement (modal) - Three Folk Song Settings - Schein uns du liebe Sonne
Tonal - Friede auf Erden, op. 13
Non-tonal - Hemmung, op. 35 no. 1
12-tone - Dreimal tausend Jahre, op. 50a


----------



## brotagonist

I know you bought a couple of sets, the excellent String Quartet set by the Schoenberg Quartet and also the Sony Boulez set, I believe, but, if I might tantalize you with another:









Karajan/BerlinerPO

It was the first set of the Neue Wiener Schule I ever owned (4 LPs), in 1974, now available in *a limited edition 3CD boxed set* (US$7.66 plus shipping from ImportCDs on Amazon US). I just bought it this morning.


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## Chronochromie

Mahlerian said:


> to those steeped in the lush Straussian/Wagnerian orchestra, I suppose it makes a good entry point.


The funny thing is that I've heard very few works by Strauss and only Tristan und Isolde by Wagner. Gurre-Lieder does sound a bit like Wagner. Apparently Brahms was also influential to Schoenberg? I can't hear that though.


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## Mahlerian

When Schoenberg wrote Gurrelieder, his biggest influences were Wagner, Brahms, Strauss, and his teacher Zemlinsky. He was still wary of Mahler, whom he would later call the "ideal artist of our age", though the orchestration of part 3 is decidedly Mahlerian in its soloistic treatment. He was not aware of the music of Debussy yet, by his own admission, and though one book on impressionism pointed to the prelude as impressionist in style, I think it's more an outgrowth of Wagner, like the prelude to Rheingold or Forest Murmurs from Siegfried.


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## scratchgolf

brotagonist said:


> I know you bought a couple of sets, the excellent String Quartet set by the Schoenberg Quartet and also the Sony Boulez set, I believe, but, if I might tantalize you with another:
> 
> View attachment 60336
> 
> 
> Karajan/BerlinerPO
> 
> It was the first set of the Neue Wiener Schule I ever owned (4 LPs), in 1974, now available in *a limited edition 3CD boxed set* (US$7.66 plus shipping from ImportCDs on Amazon US). I just bought it this morning.


I refuse to be tantalized. Therefore, I simply purchased it without a 2nd thought 
Thanks for the rec!


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## scratchgolf

In a slightly related topic, I was reading more of my Furtwangler book last night. He had a very interesting relationship with Schoenberg and the book contains some fascinating quotes about Schoenberg. He seemed to have great respect for Schoenberg and premiered many of his works, often to boos and walk-outs. Here's an interesting excerpt from a Furtwangler interview about tonal and atonal music.

*"...if we let ourselves be guided by the atonal musician we walk as it were through a dense forest. The strangest flowers and plants attract our attention by the side of the path. But we do not know where we are going or whence we have come. The listener is seized by a feeling of being lost, of being at the mercy of the forces of primeval existence. It seems as though the atonal musician has not paid attention to the listener as an independent personality: the listener is faced with an all-powerful world of chaos. But of course it must be admitted that this strikes a chord in the apprehensions of modern man!"*

While he never seemed to express outright love for this new music, he approached it as if hearing something new and exciting. Something with merit that was yet to be determined, much like the reception to Beethoven's late quartets a century earlier. He was never a true champion of that "modern" music, and was actually derided for being too old fashioned, but his program selections were very balanced and he scheduled numerous new works that are today considered absolute masterpieces.

He also was able to conduct the likes of Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev, and Hindemith as soloists on their own works. What an exciting time the 20's in Berlin must have been. Surely to rival New York and Paris in the 20's. I also found out that Stravinsky was a rather inept conductor, and only could conduct his more difficult works (Rite of Spring) if the orchestra was well prepared and familiar with the piece.


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## Mandryka

You have to remember that Schoenberg's music is very emotional, very romantic. So it's not surprising that Furtwangler was attracted to it. Sometimes I find Schoenberg too emotional for my taste in fact - so Pierrot Lunaire and the String trio seem like an almost embarrassing romantic effusion.


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## isorhythm

Mandryka said:


> You have to remember that Schoenberg's music is very emotional, very romantic. So it's not surprising that Furtwangler was attracted to it. Sometimes I find Schoenberg too emotional for my taste in fact - so Pierrot Lunaire and the String trio seem like an almost embarrassing romantic effusion.


Exactly. I like most of Schoenberg's music in the same way and for the same reasons that I like Mahler and late Brahms. I think if more people understood that Schoenberg should be approached this way, and weren't scared away in advance by propaganda, he would be much more popular with mainstream classical music audiences.


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## scratchgolf

My Karajan - Schoenberg/Berg/Webern CDs arrived today. Thanks for the rec, Brotagonist.

In addition, I'm sending a special shoutout to Trazom. He expressed interest in a few Schubert films I own and the film _A Late Quartet_. I mailed them to him and they returned in the mail today, with 12 additional CDs of Mozart and Liszt. In a seemingly thoughtless world, such a thoughtful gesture is an absolute breath of fresh air. I can easily say, Trazom, you're a quality guy and you just made a friend for life. I can't even begin to thank you for this amazing gift. I hope I haven't embarrassed you too badly here but you absolutely deserve the recognition. I'll cherish the new music (in February ) and maybe make February Mozart month. I'm really blown away by this kind act.









Why is the stupid picture upside-down? :lol:


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## brotagonist

You had me worried there, when I saw your play counts included no Schoenberg. Did scratchgolf give up? 

I got my copy on Friday. I have the Schoenberg disc on now (I'm savouring the others for another day or three). I hope you're not disappointed. I would never have suggested it, were it not for the exceptional price.


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## millionrainbows

*"...if we let ourselves be guided by the atonal musician we walk as it were through a dense forest. The strangest flowers and plants attract our attention by the side of the path. But we do not know where we are going or whence we have come. The listener is seized by a feeling of being lost, of being at the mercy of the forces of primeval existence. It seems as though the atonal musician has not paid attention to the listener as an independent personality: the listener is faced with an all-powerful world of chaos. But of course it must be admitted that this strikes a chord in the apprehensions of modern man!"*

That's pretty perceptive of Furtwangler. I like that.


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## Mandryka

In "Concerning Music" Furtwangler said "atonal music is _biologically inferior_ to tonal music."

http://avantmusen.hypotheses.org/16


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## scratchgolf

brotagonist said:


> You had me worried there, when I saw your play counts included no Schoenberg. Did scratchgolf give up?
> 
> I got my copy on Friday. I have the Schoenberg disc on now (I'm savouring the others for another day or three). I hope you're not disappointed. I would never have suggested it, were it not for the exceptional price.


I'm still going strong, 1/3 of the way in. I have been craving other familiar music though. I've had Schubert's 8th in my head, teasing me. Beckoning me to return to the warm pastures. There are currently 5 Schoenberg works that have opened up to me, with the most recent being Chamber Symphony 1. I've given it 5 complete, focused listenings, accompanied by a synopsis from Mahlerian. My focus now is shifting to purely 12-tone works and middle period pieces. Op. 16 and Op. 31 are my next focal points. I've listened to each once and they should provide me with a bit more of a challenge.


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## Mahlerian

I've always thought this 12-tone canon was pretty fun and amusing.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Just take away "It seems as though the atonal musician has not paid attention to the listener as an independent personality: the listener is faced with an all-powerful world of chaos." and the Furtwangler quote becomes a rather nice analogy.


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## Guest

Well, I like me some chaos.

I certainly like beautiful music. Beautiful in Rilke's sense: "we admire it so because it calmly disdains to destroy us."


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## scratchgolf

Woke up at 3 am. Threw on Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16. Not quite my cup of tea yet but it's beginning to become a soundtrack for my miserable sleep patterns. Late nights and early mornings. Somehow it just makes sense this early in the morning. Who the hell would wake up at 3 am and listen to Rameau?


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## science

scratchgolf said:


> Woke up at 3 am. Threw on Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16. Not quite my cup of tea yet but it's beginning to become a soundtrack for my miserable sleep patterns. Late nights and early mornings. Somehow it just makes sense this early in the morning. *Who the hell would wake up at 3 am and listen to Rameau?*


Louis XV.

But he had no chance to call on Schoenberg. So you're not just living like a king, you're living better than a king.


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## scratchgolf

science said:


> Louis XV.
> 
> But he had no chance to call on Schoenberg. So you're not just living like a king, you're living better than a king.


It's actually much worse. I made a huge mistake and tried watching _Semi Pro_(2008) again yesterday. It was still as awful as the first time, but I woke up with that stupid song in my head. Now while I'm trying to pay attention to the vocals in Op.16, I hear Will Ferrell singing "I Want to Love You Sexy" intruding in my head.


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## science

scratchgolf said:


> It's actually much worse. I made a huge mistake and tried watching _Semi Pro_(2008) again yesterday. It was still as awful as the first time, but I woke up with that stupid song in my head. Now while I'm trying to pay attention to the vocals in Op.16, I hear Will Ferrell singing "I Want to Love You Sexy" intruding in my head.


Living in Korea has cut me off from western pop culture to such a degree that I have never heard of _Semi Pro_. Ten years ago I felt like maybe I should be making some effort to catch up, but now I'm so far behind that I couldn't easily catch up if I tried, and I've actually made peace with being this out of touch. It actually feels good. My students talk about the latest Batman or Iron Man movies, and I feel like, thank God I didn't sit through that! (I wish I could get so far out of touch with the politics too.)

So I'll just have to settle for getting NKOTB songs stuck in my head while listening to Schoenberg.


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## scratchgolf

Verklarte Nacht just started. That should cheer things up a bit. At least provide nice contrast. I am enjoying 5 Pieces a little more each time. I'm going to read up on the work before listening again. That usually helps add perspective.


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## violadude

Hey Scratchgolf, I got a question.

Are you starting to hear the connections between early Schoenberg and atonal/serialist Schoenberg or does he sound like a completely different composer to you from one style to another?


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## scratchgolf

violadude said:


> Hey Scratchgolf, I got a question.
> 
> Are you starting to hear the connections between early Schoenberg and atonal/serialist Schoenberg or does he sound like a completely different composer to you from one style to another?


I think I'm hearing some tendencies and similarities but my lack musical training is a bit of a disadvantage. I may just be hearing what I want to hear, but there does seem to be flow between styles.


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## scratchgolf

This isn't fair! My Furtwangler Box just arrived and there's not a single recording of Schoenberg! 107 CDs. Tempting me. Calling out to me. Bruckner, Beethoven, dear Schubert, Wagner for days, but no Schoenberg. So I have to let this huge, amazing collection sit on the shelf and collect dust for 17 more days? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!


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## arpeggio

*Mahlerian orchestration.*

Mahlerian has completed an orchestration for the Schoenberg _Sechs kleine Klavierstücke, Op. 19 (Six Little Piano Pieces)_.

We just played it at a rehearsal of the McLean Symphony. It went over real well. We will be premiering it on our March 22 concert.

Way to go Mahlerian. :tiphat::trp::clap:


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## scratchgolf

arpeggio said:


> Mahlerian has completed an orchestration for the Schoenberg _Sechs kleine Klavierstücke, Op. 19 (Six Little Piano Pieces)_.
> 
> We just played it at a rehearsal of the McLean Symphony. It went over real well. We will be premiering it on our March 22 concert.
> 
> Way to go Mahlerian. :tiphat::trp::clap:


That's awesome! Congrats!


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## Hugo

As we're nearing the end of the month. Hows it going?


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## science

arpeggio said:


> Mahlerian has completed an orchestration for the Schoenberg _Sechs kleine Klavierstücke, Op. 19 (Six Little Piano Pieces)_.
> 
> We just played it at a rehearsal of the McLean Symphony. It went over real well. We will be premiering it on our March 22 concert.
> 
> Way to go Mahlerian. :tiphat::trp::clap:


Wow! Congratulations! That's awesome.


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## science

scratchgolf said:


> That's awesome! Congrats!





science said:


> Wow! Congratulations! That's awesome.


This is a great-minds-think-alike situation.


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## scratchgolf

Hugo said:


> As we're nearing the end of the month. Hows it going?


My listening has slowed a bit as I'm finishing my basement and have been extremely busy with that work. I have stuck with it though and I'm listening to the Piano Concerto as we speak. I'll provide a full writeup on the 1st of Feb.


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## brotagonist

I had been intending to ask about your progress. So, the basement bug has bitten  I trust you have the Piano Concerto on endless repeat blasting over the screech of the saw blade and pound of the hammer? :lol:


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## scratchgolf

I can say this about the basement. It's a one time deal and never could I do this for a living. I started from scratch and did the studs, insulation, sheetrock, and today was day 2 of mudding the sheetrock. I also built a bar and the bar counter should arrive next week. The poker table arrived today and I ordered about 15 dar signs and mirrors. I'm making it a realistic Irish Pub and I'll share pics when complete. Needless to say, I have a brand new respect for people who do this for a living. It's back breaking work.


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## Fagotterdammerung

I'll confess I've not read this thread in full, so I may be the bringer of old news, but when exploring late Schoenberg, I found his String Trio, Op.45 strangely approachable despite its acerbic nature, with momentary flashbacks to his turn of the century style.


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## science

Fagotterdammerung said:


> I'll confess I've not read this thread in full, so I may be the bringer of old news, but when exploring late Schoenberg, I found his String Trio, Op.45 strangely approachable despite its acerbic nature, with momentary flashbacks to his turn of the century style.


Thank you for that idea! I'd never thought about the "flashbacks" thing, and I'll try to hear it next time I listen to the string trio, which is one of my favorite works by Schoenberg. I'd say my favorite, but I'd want to think about that a while before putting myself on record.


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## science

I know it's early, but in Korea time, you've got only one more day to go! What will you break your fast with?


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## scratchgolf

science said:


> I know it's early, but in Korea time, you've got only one more day to go! What will you break your fast with?


I've considered this thoroughly. Although my beloved Schubert seems the logical choice, I've been absolutely craving Mahler's 2nd for weeks. So Sunday night, when others are watching the Superbowl, I'll be listening to M2/Boulez with a glass or two of Lagavulin 16. And by glass or two, I mean entire bottle or two :lol:


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## Fagotterdammerung

Any new favorites? What's your summation of Schoenberg month so far?


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## scratchgolf

Well, the 31st has arrived. So here's my conclusion of what turned out to be a trying yet adventurous and exciting month. I listened to all sorts of music this month across a very broad spectrum. If I had to sum up my experience with the guy who ruined classical music, I'd say pleasantly surprised. I still don't think I can hear the difference between atonal music and 12 tone technique but, does that really matter if the music is enjoyable? I guess those who can hear tone rows get better appreciation for what they're hearing and why they're hearing it but clarification is just a PM away. So, here we go. I've broken down the works I paid proper time to into a few categories. They are as follows....

*Works I fell in love with*
Gurre-Lieder - Some of the most hauntingly beautiful vocal music I've ever heard
Drei Volkslieder - See above. Please tell me Schoenberg haters have tried this work? That's right. They haven't.
String Quartet in D - If you close your eyes, you can confuse this for Mendelssohn
String Quartet 1 - Also very lyrical and fluid
String Quartet 3 - I'm starting to hear Bartok here. Exciting work for sure.
Verklarte Nacht (Transfigured Night) - No surprises here. Who doesn't love this?

*Works I enjoyed but need more time with*
String Quartet 4 - The month was just too short to give this more than a few spins
6 Kleine Klavierstucke - See above
Chamber Symphonies 1&2 - These received quite a bit of attention from me and opened up nicely. Still not in love though.
Piano Concerto - See above
Four Orchestral Songs - I wouldn't listen to this during the day but at night its sexy and mysterious.
Variations for Orchestra Op. 31 - See above. Also, not for casual listening. Required my full attention.
Five Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 16

*Works that deserve more time due to limited exposure*
Moses and Aron
Pierrot Lunaire, Op. 21 
Erwartung, Op. 17 
Wind Quintet, Op. 26 
String Trio, Op. 45

*Works that made my ears bleed*
Die Jakobsleiter - I just don't think these are works I'll ever appreciate, if I even return to them at all.
Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte, Op. 41

I listened to much more than this but these were the ones that stood out or received the most attention. As I said before, I now convinced that some who trash Schoenberg, his music, and what he started, have probably never tried or tried the wrong things. Perhaps my above list will encourage them to try again, or begin trying what they claim to hate. I did get a feel for his flow between periods and I'm not shocked that the music I enjoyed the most came from his early period. I probably would have guessed that in advance. Still, the bulk of my listening focused on the middle and late periods and, even there, I made some discoveries that will remain in my listening rotation for years. Obviously one month is too short to truly love anything of this magnitude (his oeuvre) but I have to say, I did accomplish what I set out to do. I'd like to thank Mahlerian, Brotagonist, and everyone else who assisted me with recommendations, versions, and advice. This truly was a rewarding experience and as of 12:00 am, I won't have to run to Tinychat to get my Schubert fix :lol:


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## isorhythm

Maybe someone will contradict me, but I don't think anyone hears tone rows the vast majority of the time. The 12-tone method is more a means of producing motivic and harmonic coherence. Of course, lots of people have better ears than I do.


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## Mahlerian

isorhythm said:


> Maybe someone will contradict me, but I don't think anyone hears tone rows the vast majority of the time. The 12-tone method is more a means of producing motivic and harmonic coherence. Of course, lots of people have better ears than I do.


In special, controlled instances, some of the manipulations of a 12-tone series can be heard, if the composer draws attention to the transformation. Inversion is not too difficult to recognize.

For a listener, there's really no more need to think about how a 12-tone work is constructed than there is for them to study Schenkerian diagrams of a traditionally tonal work. I can't think of any composers who really require the listener to follow such things for enjoyment of the work.


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## Albert7

I like the experiment that scratchgolf and I think that later on this year I will have a Morton Feldman listening fest.


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## Albert7

... Just bumping up this thread for reference.


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## Fagotterdammerung

I should challenge myself. I like Modern classical too much, though. Perhaps Telemann listening year? :lol:


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## Albert7

Fagotterdammerung said:


> I should challenge myself. I like Modern classical too much, though. Perhaps Telemann listening year? :lol:


I plan to do this experiment once a year with a new composer I think. This year for me is Morton Feldman. Next year will be probably Elliott Carter.


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## Oscarf

Reading this thread yesterday motivated me to check all the Schoenberg I have in my collection and listen to Chamber Symphonies 1&2, Erwartung and the Five pieces for Orchestra today. Maybe more Schoenberg tomorrow, the rest of the day will be spent on Dvorak`s symphonies #7 and 8


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## Morimur

If any of you fellers want a real challenge, go and tackle Brian Ferneyhough's ouvre. Have a glass of water within reach.


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## ptr

Morimur said:


> If any of you fellers want a real challenge, go and tackle Brian Ferneyhough's ouvre. Have a glass of water within reach.


Naaah, You have to do better! I find Ferneyhough's music very easy to digest, no chaser needed! 

/ptr


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## Guest

Morimur said:


> If any of you fellers want a real challenge, go and tackle Brian Ferneyhough's ouvre. Have a glass of water within reach.


I just wish it was closer to being completely recorded. Very little of the larger ensemble / orchestral stuff seems available, or I would.

Hey scratchgolf, don't forget Von Heute Auf Morgen, all those other lieder, the Serenade, the Septet, etc! Schoenberg has a lot of neat little gems that you haven't mentioned


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## Morimur

nathanb said:


> I just wish it was closer to being completely recorded. Very little of the larger ensemble / orchestral stuff seems available, or I would.


True, but his string quartets and trios are quite excellent. I recommend this great set...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I3LDETW/ref=pd_aw_sbs_m_1?refRID=0YMFRJNED5B7YFBDCFPV


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## Guest

Morimur said:


> True, but his string quartets and trios are quite excellent. I recommend this great set...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00I3LDETW/ref=pd_aw_sbs_m_1?refRID=0YMFRJNED5B7YFBDCFPV


I think I have mp3s of the majority of his recorded works, including the Arditti set, Shadowtime, the KAIROS disc, and various other chamber discs...

http://www.composers21.com/compdocs/ferneyhb.htm - I can't help but think that I'm missing out. Of course this is part of the excitement of contemporary music - you're not waiting for the 1000th recording of a Beethoven sonata; you're waiting for new material! But all the same, it can be a little tough to wait when the composer is just that good


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## arpeggio

arpeggio said:


> Mahlerian has completed an orchestration for the Schoenberg _Sechs kleine Klavierstücke, Op. 19 (Six Little Piano Pieces)_.
> 
> We just played it at a rehearsal of the McLean Symphony. It went over real well. We will be premiering it on our March 22 concert.
> 
> Way to go Mahlerian. :tiphat::trp::clap:


I just got home from orchestral rehearsal and the Schoenberg is coming along well. We had to adjust some of the orchestration to conform with the instruments that we have. We did secure an alto flute player and the part sounded great.

We are working at trying to find someone to video the concert.


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## Albert7

This thread has been rather fruitful. I appreciate that scratchgolf started this idea... now from this has sparked three different composer-in-detail examinations.

1) Morton Feldman in March 2015
2) William Furtwangler in March-April 2015 (Lord Lance)
and
3) Franz Lizst in April 2015.

What is very good is that neither Lord Lance nor I are musicologists but "amateur" listeners trying to wrap sense around a composer or conductor's legacy here.

Also key is that scratchgolf was able to explore a composer with whom he wasn't familiar with before. And increase his understanding of a man's body of work. I admire his example here for sure. Also the tabulation of pieces that he liked, was indifferent to, or wanted to explore is key because then it doesn't just become a random playlist but a focused effort to try to understand the evolution of Schoenberg's style over time.

And the result is that the conclusion "Schoenberg is just a bunch of noise" was not reached. A profound connection to a composer was forged and that was key here. So kudos.


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## millionrainbows

Albert7 said:


> And the result is that the conclusion "Schoenberg is just a bunch of noise" was not reached. A profound connection to a composer was forged and that was key here. So kudos.


I could have told you a long time ago that "Schoenberg was *not* just a bunch of noise," but I figured I'd just go ahead and let you make your own mistakes. :lol:


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## Albert7

millionrainbows said:


> I could have told you a long time ago that "Schoenberg was *not* just a bunch of noise," but I figured I'd just go ahead and let you make your own mistakes. :lol:


No worries... I played Schoenberg's Piano Concerto last December for the Salt Lake Classical Music Society and my dad was still adjusting to what he thinks is a bunch of racket. He still subscribes to bel canto a lot but no worries, my increasing exposure at the music society has been geared more now to 20th and 21st century music since a lot of people haven't heard some very exceptional compositions e.g. Ferneyhough quite yet but I look forward to that.


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## TradeMark

I didn't need to do an experiment to get into schoenberg. He just instantly appealed to me. 

I hope you have good luck getting into him.


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## Albert7

TradeMark said:


> I didn't need to do an experiment to get into schoenberg. He just instantly appealed to me.
> 
> I hope you have good luck getting into him.


I applaud you for your musical bravery... Not as many people are as brave to be able to jump into Schoenberg straight in without any hesitation.


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## Blake

I don't think it can be considered bravery if it's instantly appealing. But good for you, TM, for having great taste from the start.


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## TradeMark

I don't think Schoenberg is that inaccessible, but rather I think people tend to approach his music the wrong way. I think some people might be looking for qualities in his music that aren't necessarily there. I know there are some romantic fans who believe that all composers should pour their heart out into their music and make music that emotionally moves the audience. I think that's kind of silly. Its perfectly possible to enjoy music in other ways. I find the contrapuntal nature of Schoenberg's music engaging, as well as his Wagner-like drama. Also, before I listened to classical music I listened to things like Captain Beefheart and Henry Cow who also made atonal music. (well, at least I think they did)


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## Albert7

TradeMark said:


> I don't think Schoenberg is that inaccessible, but rather I think people tend to approach his music the wrong way. I think some people might be looking for qualities in his music that aren't necessarily there. I know there are some romantic fans who believe that all composers should pour their heart out into their music and make music that emotionally moves the audience. I think that's kind of silly. Its perfectly possible to enjoy music in other ways. I find the contrapuntal nature of Schoenberg's music engaging, as well as his Wagner-like drama. Also, before I listened to classical music I listened to things like Captain Beefheart and Henry Cow who also made atonal music. (well, at least I think they did)


That is awesome... Do you have any favorite Schoenberg pieces in particular, TradeMark? I would like to hear your feedback regarding this.


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## TradeMark

Albert7 said:


> That is awesome... Do you have any favorite Schoenberg pieces in particular, TradeMark? I would like to hear your feedback regarding this.


pierrot lunaire was the first piece I heard by Schoenberg and had the biggest impact on me, so I might go with that one. I also really like the piano concerto, violin concerto, and Erwartung. I still need to explore Schoenberg a little more though.


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## arpeggio

Just got home from the premier of Mahlerian's orchestrations of the Schoenberg _Six Little Piano Pieces_.

It was successful performance and well received by the audience. Everyone applauded.

We did record the concert and hopefully we can post the recording somewhere.


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## Guest

TradeMark said:


> I don't think Schoenberg is that inaccessible, but rather I think people tend to approach his music the wrong way. I think some people might be looking for qualities in his music that aren't necessarily there. I know there are some romantic fans who believe that all composers should pour their heart out into their music and make music that emotionally moves the audience. I think that's kind of silly. Its perfectly possible to enjoy music in other ways. I find the contrapuntal nature of Schoenberg's music engaging, as well as his Wagner-like drama. Also, before I listened to classical music I listened to things like Captain Beefheart and Henry Cow who also made atonal music. (well, at least I think they did)


Agreed 110%. Too many classical fans go into their further explorations with the mindset: "If it doesn't do for me exactly what Tchaikovsky does for me, it really kinda sucks."

Sad :/

True of musical exploration in general, I suppose...


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## arpeggio

Mahlerian,

Last night my wife and I attended a concert and we ran into a couple who attended the premier of your Schoenberg transcription. They told us how much they enjoyed it. :tiphat:


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## regenmusic

His Gurrelieder is gorgeous, and it completely tonal. It was written during his Christian period.


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