# Bach: Where to begin?



## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Ok, so I have a question for the fine folks at TC is simple enough, but with a couple of specifics.

Question: Where to start with Bach? I respect his music but want to love it.

Specifics: I'm not really a fan of vocal music with a very few exceptions. I'm looking for his easiest, friendliest pieces.

Some background - I don't like not liking things that are excellent. I try to keep an open mind. I went to college for music for a year, and studied part writing with Bach's chorale tunes. I studied him in Music History as well and understand his important contributions to the evolution of western music. I recognize the man is an absolute genius - as in music was one way before him, and another way after him. That said, a lot of his music, though technically brilliant is not necessarily fun for me to listen to for any length of time. I think a part of it may be my feelings toward baroque music in general. Sure it's the building blocks for everything that comes after, but it doesn't mean I want a steady diet of it. Also, Bach was so prolific and in so many types of composition, it's a bit daunting to approach from the outside.

Lastly, I do have once recording with Bach music, and that's Julia Fischer's Bach violin concertos album. I like that album and have listened to it a few times. That's not necessarily the ONLY kind of Bach music I want more of, just giving something out that I did like. I also listened to a few recordings of the Brandenburg Concertos, both modern instruments and period. Those were enjoyable, especially a few of the more iconic ones. And in the broader baroque period perspective, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is one of my all time favorite compositions.

So there it is. If I've failed to adequately use the search feature, I'm new here, please be patient with me. I looked in advanced search and came up with nothing like this. I appreciate any feedback you folks might have. Thanks.

*EDIT: Any specific artists or recordings you like would be helpful as well. Thanks.*


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Start with the four Orchestral Suites, the Brandenburg concertos and the six cello suites. Then I'd suggest the Goldberg Variations and Musical Offering, and read supplementary material if necessary to figure out what Bach is doing in each piece. The utter craftsmanship and order in his work is stunning.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The violin concerti are indeed excellent ways in, and some of his most purely appreciable music. Maybe try the keyboard concerti (on modern piano unless you like harpsichord) - No. 1 in D minor is one of the most jaw-dropping works he wrote, while No. 2 in E major is one of his most danceable and irresistable, with a heartwrenching middle movement. Also No. 5 in F minor seems to move a lot of people (though I don't think it exceeds the first two). You also might try some of the solo keyboard pieces - French Suite No. 5 and Keyboard Partita No. 1 are both pretty much irresistable. Finally, do check out the sonatas for violin and keyboard - they inexplicably don't get talked about very much among the rest of Bach's instrumental music, but they're of thoroughly high quality and are inexhaustible in terms of musical riches. I would recommend the recordings with Rachel Barton Pine and Jory Vinikour on harpsichord. Then keep exploring from there!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Start where many of us did:


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

consuono said:


> Start with the four Orchestral Suites, the Brandenburg concertos and the six cello suites. Then I'd suggest the Goldberg Variations and Musical Offering, and read supplementary material if necessary to figure out what Bach is doing in each piece. The utter craftsmanship and order in his work is stunning.


Thanks for the reply.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> The violin concerti are indeed excellent ways in, and some of his most purely appreciable music. Maybe try the keyboard concerti (on modern piano unless you like harpsichord) - No. 1 in D minor is one of the most jaw-dropping works he wrote, while No. 2 in E major is one of his most danceable and irresistable, with a heartwrenching middle movement. Also No. 5 in F minor seems to move a lot of people (though I don't think it exceeds the first two). You also might try some of the solo keyboard pieces - French Suite No. 5 and Keyboard Partita No. 1 are both pretty much irresistable. Finally, do check out the sonatas for violin and keyboard - they inexplicably don't get talked about very much among the rest of Bach's instrumental music, but they're of thoroughly high quality and are inexhaustible in terms of musical riches. I would recommend the recordings with Rachel Barton Pine and Jory Vinikour on harpsichord. Then keep exploring from there!


Thank you. I'll check them out. Approachable and heartwrenching is what I'm looking for!


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I listened to, and liked, a lot of Bach's works early on - the Brandenburg Concertos, the Orchestral Suites, the Violin Concertos. Those are all great. But I didn't really connect with Bach until I tried the Goldberg Variations. I'd heard numerous people discuss this work, but I thought "Variations? How interesting could that be?" I heard them and was immediately hooked. I'd start there. They might not impact you like they did me, but you will see they get a lot of praise. If you can stand solo harpsichord, then you could go for that, but personally, I much prefer listening to them performed on modern piano (Murray Perahia's recording is my current favorite). Hell, they work on most instruments.

If you stick with Bach, over time you'll probably check out his organ works (magnificent) and choral works (his Mass in B Minor is one of the finest things out there). There is an absurd wealth of good things with Bach.

Also, try the Cello Suites!


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

To me, the most accessible, friendly, and likable non-vocal works are:

The Brandenburg Concerti (1-6)
The Goldberg Variations

I’m HIP aligned, so I recommend for the Brandenburgs Ton Koopman and The Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and for the Goldberg Variations Jory Vinikour. There are plenty of great HIP recordings available as well as modern instrument and performance practice ones. At some point in your Bach journey you will probably gravitate to one or another approach and sound.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I listened to, and liked, a lot of Bach's works early on - the Brandenburg Concertos, the Orchestral Suites, the Violin Concertos. Those are all great. But I didn't really connect with Bach until I tried the Goldberg Variations. I'd heard numerous people discuss this work, but I thought "Variations? How interesting could that be?" I heard them and was immediately hooked. I'd start there. They might not impact you like they did me, but you will see they get a lot of praise. If you can stand solo harpsichord, then you could go for that, but personally, I much prefer listening to them performed on modern piano (Murray Perahia's recording is my current favorite). Hell, they work on most instruments.
> 
> If you stick with Bach, over time you'll probably check out his organ works (magnificent) and choral works (his Mass in B Minor is one of the finest things out there). There is an absurd wealth of good things with Bach.
> 
> Also, try the Cello Suites!


Thanks for the reply. I'll look into those.



seitzpf said:


> To me, the most accessible, friendly, and likable non-vocal works are:
> 
> The Brandenburg Concerti (1-6)
> The Goldberg Variations
> ...


I'm actually looking at both HIP and modern so this is very helpful. I have a new album of the Four Seasons from Pinnock and it's amazing. Thanks for the response.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback so far. The specific recordings or artists to look for are very helpful. Also, I'm neither HIP nor old skool, so I would enjoy checking out these compositions in either...style(?) or recording. Thanks.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Lastly, I do have once recording with Bach music, and that's Julia Fischer's Bach violin concertos album. I like that album and have listened to it a few times. That's not necessarily the ONLY kind of Bach music I want more of, just giving something out that I did like. I also listened to a few recordings of the Brandenburg Concertos, both modern instruments and period. Those were enjoyable, especially a few of the more iconic ones. And in the broader baroque period perspective, Vivaldi's Four Seasons is one of my all time favorite compositions.


Although you've said that you enjoyed Bach's Violin Concertos and the Brandenburgs, I'm assuming you have not made a strong connection with Bach. Yet, you love Vivaldi's Four Seasons. That tells me that further exploration of Bach's orchestral music is not your gateway to Bach. You have also expressed a lack of interest in vocal music; actually, you've provided a lot of information.

Given the above, I suggest a different route starting with Bach's Art of Fugue. It's a marvel of musical construction, and it is very enjoyable to follow the music's inner workings. But you can forget about that daunting task and simply luxuriate in each musical line and the interactions among them. The work has been recorded on harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano, chamber setting, and for baroque orchestra. Which one to choose? I love them all, so check out the various instrumentations. I suppose I'm suggesting some kind of project; I am, and reaching the finish line offers you numerous immediate returns in addition to collateral benefits.

It's likely that one or more members will advise you that the Art of Fugue is too austere and complex at this point in your explorations. From the postings you have made here on TC, I believe you're a person who wants to get to Bach's essence; the Art of Fugue takes you there.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> Although you've said that you enjoyed Bach's Violin Concertos and the Brandenburgs, I'm assuming you have not made a strong connection with Bach. Yet, you love Vivaldi's Four Seasons. That tells me that further exploration of Bach's orchestral music is not your gateway to Bach. You have also expressed a lack of interest in vocal music; actually, you've provided a lot of information.
> 
> Given the above, I suggest a different route starting with Bach's Art of Fugue. It's a marvel of musical construction, and it is very enjoyable to follow the music's inner workings. But you can forget about that daunting task and simply luxuriate in each musical line and the interactions among them. The work has been recorded on harpsichord, clavichord, fortepiano, chamber setting, and for baroque orchestra. Which one to choose? I love them all, so check out the various instrumentations. I suppose I'm suggesting some kind of project; I am, and reaching the finish line offers you numerous immediate returns in addition to collateral benefits.
> 
> It's likely that one or more members will advise you that the Art of Fugue is too austere and complex at this point in your explorations. From the postings you have made here on TC, I believe you're a person who wants to get to Bach's essence; the Art of Fugue takes you there.


I'm willing to give any of it a try. Just found Marriner and the Academy's recording on Amazon music. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I'm willing to give any of it a try. Just found Marriner and the Academy's recording on Amazon music. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the suggestion!


I've been in love with Bach for 2 years now and I'm just now starting to love the AoF, but everyone's mileage varies. Once I finally understood it I almost broke down in tears - this is some of the most poignant music I know, but early on I was too focused on understanding how it all works together and I couldn't get to the sense of deep and profound valedictory feeling that Bach infused the music with. As Bulldog says, disregard all preconceptions about the "dry academic nature" of the music and just soak it up. That Marriner recording is excellent. You may like Jordi Savall's ensemble version, Walcha's organ recording, and Gilbert's harpsichord performance too.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'll look into those.
> 
> I'm actually looking at both HIP and modern so this is very helpful. I have a new album of the Four Seasons from Pinnock and it's amazing. Thanks for the response.


If you like Pinnock for the Four Seasons, try Giuliano Carmignola with the Venice Baroque Orchestra.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Speaking of Marriner, here's a good place to start:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Marriner is about the last performance I would suggest (sour modern strings etc.)

FWIW, my primary recommendations:

Kenneth Gilbert (harpsichord)
Glenn Gould (piano and organ)
Evgeny Koroliov (piano)
Tatiana Nikolayeva (piano)
Davitt Moroney (harpsichord)
Robert Hill (harpsichord)
Gustav Leonhardt (harpsichord)
Rinaldo Alessandrini/Concerto Italiano (orchestral)
Jordi Savall/Hesperion XX (orchestral)
Amsterdam Loeki Stardust Quartet (recorders - haunting)


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> Marriner is about the last performance I would suggest (sour modern strings etc.)


What is your definition of "sour?" Just curious because I've never seen this term applied to music. If anything Baroque/period ensemble strings sound "sour" to me.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What is your definition of "sour?" Just curious because I've never seen this term applied to music. If anything Baroque/period ensemble strings sound "sour" to me.


HIP isn't really "sour", but "wheezy". Not to mention conjectural (no vibrato? How do you know?).

Anyway, want to learn to love Bach? Keep in mind something that a musician in a vid documentary I remember pointed out, and it's true: in Bach there are no unimportant parts. Everything is interesting and has value.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> What is your definition of "sour?" Just curious because I've never seen this term applied to music. If anything Baroque/period ensemble strings sound "sour" to me.


I am sure that I'm not the first person to use sour and music in the same sentence. . As to a definition, I don't have one. However, think of the look you might have on your face while eating something extremely sour; that's how I feel and look when listening to Bach on modern strings 9 times out of 10.

I suppose we are just opposites concerning strings for baroque music.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Look into the Cello Suites with this thread started by me. So you know it is insightful and erudite.
Your Bach Cello Suites recordings


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> I am sure that I'm not the first person to use sour and music in the same sentence. . As to a definition, I don't have one. However, think of the look you might have on your face while eating something extremely sour; that's how I feel and look when listening to Bach on modern strings 9 times out of 10.
> 
> I suppose we are just opposites concerning strings for baroque music.


That's exactly how I feel listening to a little crew of dead-hand string players wheezing along as in most HIP recordings. If that's "authentic", then thank God someone came along with a better idea.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Marriner is fine. Who wants to listen to the whole thing on a freaking harpsichord? Not me. I prefer the variations in instrumentation on Marriner's recording. Cafe Zimmermann is a good choice for the Brandenburg Concertos.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

starthrower said:


> The Marriner is fine. Who wants to listen to the whole thing on a freaking harpsichord?


The same people who want to listen to Bach's WTC on harpsichord.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bulldog is probably grateful he didn't, but I'm extremely disappointed that Stokowski did not attempt a string or full orchestra version of the Art of Fugue, or at least a handful of the contrapuncti. Now _that_ would have been something!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> The same people who want to listen to Bach's WTC on harpsichord.


My guess is not very many people.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

starthrower said:


> My guess is not very many people.


Actually I do enjoy hearing the keyboard works performed on harpsichord or clavichord, just as there are some HIP performances of the choral works that I really do like. What I have little patience with is the idea that *this* is how it *must* be played or performed. I think Bach would be the first to disagree.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

starthrower said:


> My guess is not very many people.


Enough people that there are plenty of harpsichord versions on the market to satisfy the strong demand.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

consuono said:


> Actually I do enjoy hearing the keyboard works performed on harpsichord or clavichord, just as there are some HIP performances of the choral works that I really do like. What I have little patience with is the idea that *this* is how it *must* be played or performed. I think Bach would be the first to disagree.


Whatever sounds good to your ears is the right way. Bach's music probably has the most varied interpretations of any composer.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Bulldog is probably grateful he didn't, but I'm extremely disappointed that Stokowski did not attempt a string or full orchestra version of the Art of Fugue, or at least a handful of the contrapuncti. Now _that_ would have been something!


The closest to that is probably Karl Münchinger. This may be my favorite fugue from Art of Fugue btw:


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

consuono said:


> The closest to that is probably Karl Münchinger. This may be my favorite fugue from Art of Fugue btw:


Gorgeous performance - what expressive phrasing! Thanks for sharing.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

My initial thought is to suggest that you start with the Brandenburg Concertos 1-6, and don't miss the wonderful harpsichord solo in No. 5: 



.

Then, the 4 Orchestral Suites, and Violin Concertos 1 & 2, Double Concerto, and Concerto for Violin & Oboe.

Then, maybe take a small step into the vocal music with Bach's wonderful, but shorter Magnificat BWV 243.

And then take a small step into his solo keyboard works with Bach's Italian Concerto and the Partita No. 1.

In addition, it would be a good idea to begin to expose yourself to both modern instrument and period instrument performances, since there's a big difference between them. I'll list both period & modern recordings below, so that you can begin to hear what I'm talking about--the modern instrument recordings are generally more lush and romantic, & not in a style that Bach would have recognized, but they're not necessarily less musical. I'm sure that I'll list too many performances below, since Bach is my favorite composer, & I like listening to different recordings of these works--but you can pick and choose between them, as you listen and decide what you like. & please don't try to listen to too much all at once, take your time:

1. Brandenburg Concertos 1-6:

--On period instruments:
















--On video: 




--On modern instruments:
Sir Neville Marriner's 1st recording, on Philips, with Thurston Dart on harpsichord: 
















2. Orchestral Suites 1-4:

--On period instruments:













--On modern instruments:




Raymond Leppard's Philips recordings with the English Chamber Orchestra are excellent, too, if you can find them: 




3. Violin Concertos 1 & 2, etc.:

--On period instruments:









--On modern instruments--Julia Fischer is very good, but there are others that are worth hearing, too:

















4. Magnificat, BWV 243:

--On period instruments: 








--On modern instruments: 





5. Italian Concerto (in 3 movements):

--On a piano:

















--On a harpsichord:













6. Partita No. 1 (of 6):

--On piano,








1-6: 




--On harpsichord,





And then maybe move onto Bach's Violin Sonatas 1-6, and his brilliant Harpsichord Concertos:

7. Violin Sonatas 1-6:
--On period instruments:



--On modern instruments: 




8. Harpsichord Concertos:

--On harpsichord & period instruments:

Here are chamber performances played on antique instruments, one per part: 

















--On piano & modern instruments:













9. Plus, you should definitely listen the opening of Bach's Christmas Oratorio, just to have heard it (& turn up the volume): 




10. And lastly, the 1st movement of his Cantata BWV 19, just to hear how unbelievably mind blowing his fugal writing could be (& again, turn the volume up)--the man could think in so many different musical directions all at once and somehow make it work organically, as one: 




And I didn't even get to his great choral masterpiece, the Mass in B minor...

When you're done with those, I'd be happy to offer some further suggestions, if you'd like...


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

If you enjoy the violin concertos, you should explore the keyboard concertos. Personally, I prefer a modern piano, such as









You might also consider the Teaching Company course "Bach and the High Baroque", taught by Robert Greenberg:









It's available on CD, DVD, and streaming. The CD's can be found cheap on the used market. Highly recommended.

And I would emphatically avoid Art of Fugue. I've been obsessed with Bach for decades, and still can't find my way to appreciate AoF.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Bulldog is probably grateful he didn't, but I'm extremely disappointed that Stokowski did not attempt a string or full orchestra version of the Art of Fugue, or at least a handful of the contrapuncti. Now _that_ would have been something!


Art of Fugue is best heard performed on an organ by Helmut Walcha. Those is known.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Art of Fugue is best heard performed on an organ by Helmut Walcha. Those is known.


Walcha was amazing, no question.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Art of Fugue is best heard performed on an organ by Helmut Walcha. Those is known.


Yes, that's the recording that made the AoF click for me. I occasionally find Walcha too dour and austere in Bach's organ works, but that style works perfectly for this music, and it absolutely overwhelmed me. It probably remains my favorite solo instrument version.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Incidentally, I would not put Art of Fugue or Musical Offering on any beginning list of Bach works. That's like starting listening to Beethoven through the Grosse Fuge.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Incidentally, I would not put Art of Fugue or Musical Offering on any beginning list of Bach works. That's like starting listening to Beethoven through the Grosse Fuge.


Grosse Fuge is somewhat atypical for Beethoven as a whole though. I cut my classical teeth on WTC and trying to play the open score edition of Art of Fugue (Tovey's edition - I photocopied some of it from the volume in the school library...and also learned how to read the various clefs by doing so -- and I'm far from being some musical genius :lol: ).

Anyway, speaking of the organ, here's a work I've loved since I first heard it...which was on the soundtrack for the film version of Slaughterhouse 5:


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Bach's orchestral, keyboard, and chamber works are all well and good; but you really miss out on the full Bach experience if you neglect his religious/choral works, the passions, the Mass, cantatas, and motets. For years all I had of Bach's religious/choral works was an album of motets and another that had "Magnificat" on one side and a Vivaldi's "Gloria" on the other. Since the music seemed beyond my understanding I more-or-less avoided Bach's religious/choral works for years. About ten years ago I purchased a recording of Bach's St. Matthew Passion by, of all people, Leonard Bernstein (not known as a Bach conductor), sung in an English translation, with a bonus section that featured Bernstein explaining the St. Matthew Passion. I recommend anyone interested Bach give it a try, and if that doesn't work, try it again without the recitatives. 

There's also a very fine recording of the St. John Passion sung in English conducted by Benjamin Britten.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

1) Brandenburg concertos - Britten (Decca)

2) Violin concertos - Grumiaux/Krebbers (Philips)

3) Cello suites - Fournier (DG)

4) Goldberg variations - Gould (1981, Sony)

5) Organ works - Walcha (DG Double)

6) Magnificat - Gardiner (DG Archiv)


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Wow. I take a break to watch a movie with the fam and come back to three pages. I appreciate the suggestions everyone. Thankfully, Amazon music has probably most of these to sample.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Ok, so I have a question for the fine folks at TC is simple enough, but with a couple of specifics.
> 
> Question: Where to start with Bach? I respect his music but want to love it.
> 
> ...


I did understand that learning music too technically would abate passion, making one more objective and susceptible to the trend of time. So I did not start learning music untill early this year and I am 36 now. For the joy thing, I have listened to Bach for 19 years, not untill 2 year ago I became truly passionate about him. Before that I just kept an open-mind for him. Keeping an open-mind is the key, it has almost nothing to do with technical knowledges, many modern composers probably never listen to Bach or Handel or di Lasso. Very body may have their own field to dedicate to, no blame for that. As long as they do not attack other kinds of music being primitive or pushing their values.

To start with JS Bach, there are many excellent CDs out there, you saying not all his works sound exciting enough for you, I do not feel the desire to input advices of this sort. Probably, not everybody needs to love JS Bach, maybe neither you. First of all, you do not need to feel obliged to love JS Bach, just listen or leave it, your choice, after sometime, if you are interested then come back for more recommendations, this is my best advices can give you.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Wow. I take a break to watch a movie with the fam and come back to three pages. I appreciate the suggestions everyone. Thankfully, Amazon music has probably most of these to sample.


If you have a good public library, that can be your best friend for cheaply discovering classical music and what you like. That was what helped me. Otherwise, consider a streaming service, like Spotify, or Apple Music. Minimal monthly cost for unlimited music. You can sample to your heart's content.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

My way in to Bach was the Italian Concerto performed by Andras Schiff. Schiff is a highly respected Bach interpreter, so if you like this one, you can try plenty more of his recordings.

Other suggestions:

Organ music: just try anything from Helmut Walcha
Well-Tempered Clavier on modern piano: Sviatoslav Richter (you can subdivide each book into smaller pieces if you want)

For the cantatas, try to find a set that separates the recitatives from the arias, duets, and choruses. The recitatives are great for adding prayer and Scriptural meaning to the cantatas, but they tend to be musically boring. Start with the best stuff.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

my entrance to Bach was

Toccata and Fugue in D minor
Chaconne in Busoni transcription






then
Italian concerto
Goldberg variations
French suites

or his keyboard concertos


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Ok, so I have a question for the fine folks at TC is simple enough, but with a couple of specifics.
> 
> Question: Where to start with Bach? I respect his music but want to love it.
> 
> ...


I am in a similar boat re: admiration vs. love.

All I can say is that the recordings that bring me closest to the latter are Pinnock's. As such, one of these two sets would be my recommendation.









https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestral-Suites/dp/B004I4HCUA/









https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestral-Suites/dp/B0000057D8/

They can be sampled on YouTube:


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> As Bulldog says, disregard all preconceptions about the "dry academic nature" of the music and just soak it up. That Marriner recording is excellent. You may like Jordi Savall's ensemble version, Walcha's organ recording, and Gilbert's harpsichord performance too.





Bulldog said:


> Marriner is about the last performance I would suggest





starthrower said:


> The Marriner is fine. Who wants to listen to the whole thing on a freaking harpsichord? Not me. I prefer the variations in instrumentation on Marriner's recording. Cafe Zimmermann is a good choice for the Brandenburg Concertos.





Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Art of Fugue is best heard performed on an organ by Helmut Walcha. Those is known.





Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Incidentally, I would not put Art of Fugue or Musical Offering on any beginning list of Bach works. That's like starting listening to Beethoven through the Grosse Fuge.


Ok, so I listened to the Art of Fugue on a few different recordings: Walcha on the Organ, Marriner and also the Emerson String Quartet. This composition was an example of the difficulty I'm having with Bach's music. It is brilliant but it doesn't do anything for me except on an intellectual level. I'm willing to revisit this at a later time, but I'm going to look into the other ensemble pieces offered in this thread.



Ariasexta said:


> For the joy thing, I have listened to Bach for 19 years, not untill 2 year ago I became truly passionate about him. Before that I just kept an open-mind for him. Keeping an open-mind is the key, it has almost nothing to do with technical knowledges, many modern composers probably never listen to Bach or Handel or di Lasso. Very body may have their own field to dedicate to, no blame for that. As long as they do not attack other kinds of music being primitive or pushing their values.
> 
> To start with JS Bach, there are many excellent CDs out there, you saying not all his works sound exciting enough for you, I do not feel the desire to input advices of this sort. Probably, not everybody needs to love JS Bach, maybe neither you. First of all, you do not need to feel obliged to love JS Bach, just listen or leave it, your choice, after sometime, if you are interested then come back for more recommendations, this is my best advices can give you.


This is good advice. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, be open minded and give it time. Hopefully I can find some music of his that I enjoy enough to listen repeatedly and see if it takes.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Ok, so I have a question for the fine folks at TC is simple enough, but with a couple of specifics.
> 
> Question: Where to start with Bach? I respect his music but want to love it.
> 
> ...


Are you confused yet?


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I am in a similar boat re: admiration vs. love.
> 
> All I can say is that the recordings that bring me closest to the latter are Pinnock's. As such, one of these two sets would be my recommendation.
> 
> View attachment 135017


Thanks. I had their recording with just the Brandenburg Concertos, but I added this one and am listening to it.


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Since you don't like choral/vocal music much (that's 30% of the best Bach done for, then!), I'd suggest anything played by this man:









I find Masaaki Suzuki has a great way getting 'inside' Bach's music. Now, here's the keyboard player. If he 'does' it for you, you might try following him as conductor of a masterful complete set of Bach's cantatas (which is where, I think, some of the best Bach is to be found).


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The violin concerti are indeed excellent ways in, and some of his most purely appreciable music. Maybe try the keyboard concerti (on modern piano unless you like harpsichord) - No. 1 in D minor is one of the most jaw-dropping works he wrote, while No. 2 in E major is one of his most danceable and irresistable, with a heartwrenching middle movement. Also No. 5 in F minor seems to move a lot of people (though I don't think it exceeds the first two). You also might try some of the solo keyboard pieces - French Suite No. 5 and Keyboard Partita No. 1 are both pretty much irresistable. Finally, do check out the sonatas for violin and keyboard - they inexplicably don't get talked about very much among the rest of Bach's instrumental music, but they're of thoroughly high quality and are inexhaustible in terms of musical riches. I would recommend the recordings with Rachel Barton Pine and Jory Vinikour on harpsichord. Then keep exploring from there!


So last night I listened to some of the Keyboard Concertos with Murray Perahia and you're right, they are more approachable. I'll keep at these. At this very moment I'm listeining to the Violin/Keyboard sonatas with Pine. These are very good. I can see myself actually purchasing this album. I'm going to try and find a good recording with piano as well for comparative purposes. I seem to enjoy both sides of the HIP/Modern aesthetic. These were great suggestions, thank you.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Since you don't like choral/vocal music much (that's 30% of the best Bach done for, then!), I'd suggest anything played by this man:
> 
> View attachment 135035
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a look. At some point I'm going to give it another go with the choral music. I never liked olives as a kid, but I kept trying them occasionally and now I love them. Can't say that approach worked for peas, though. I just tried to listen to The Magic Flute again the other day. Nope. Still don't like opera. That said, Mozart's Requiem is a favorite of mine, but I just can't listen to it all the time. I've actually got a couple of Bach's choral pieces; Mass in Bm and St. Matthew in my Amazon Music playlist, but I'm still working up to the part where I press play!


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Hey, thanks for the suggestion. I'll give it a look. At some point I'm going to give it another go with the choral music. I never liked olives as a kid, but I kept trying them occasionally and now I love them. Can't say that approach worked for peas, though. I just tried to listen to The Magic Flute again the other day. Nope. Still don't like opera. That said, Mozart's Requiem is a favorite of mine, but I just can't listen to it all the time. I've actually got a couple of Bach's choral pieces; Mass in Bm and St. Matthew in my Amazon Music playlist, but I'm still working up to the part where I press play!


Personally, listening to those would be like diving into the 10m end of a swimming pool!

Feel free to ignore, but if it were me re-getting acquainted with Bach for the first time, I think I'd start with BWV 140, 147 and 106, not necessarily in that order. They are three cantatical gems (I think I just made that adjective up!).

I should emphasize that it's not necessary to listen to all 200+ cantatas! Apart from anything else, whilst there are no complete duds in them, there is definitely variable quality. Pick from them as you prefer.

On the Suzuki cycle, BWV 140 is on Volume 52. BWV 147 is on Volume 12. And BWV 106 is on Volume 2.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> Personally, listening to those would be like diving into the 10m end of a swimming pool!


I'm American. Does that mean deep? 

I'll check out these suggestions as well, thanks!


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I'm American. Does that mean deep?
> 
> I'll check out these suggestions as well, thanks!


Oh sorry. For the left-pondians, I should have converted that.

It's about 0.0497 furlongs, or 1.0847 double-decker buses; or 0.455 brontosauruses; or 71.4286 linguine.

Does that help? 

Yeah, it's deep.

No problem. Hope you find something to get into.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> So last night I listened to some of the Keyboard Concertos with Murray Perahia and you're right, they are more approachable. I'll keep at these. At this very moment I'm listeining to the Violin/Keyboard sonatas with Pine. These are very good. I can see myself actually purchasing this album. I'm going to try and find a good recording with piano as well for comparative purposes. I seem to enjoy both sides of the HIP/Modern aesthetic. These were great suggestions, thank you.
> 
> View attachment 135036
> View attachment 135037


I have that Perahia recording and love it. I enjoy most of Perahia's Bach recordings, and his Goldberg Variations are my favorite (although I also have numerous recordings of that work on harp, harpsichord, viola consort, and organ).


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

Perahia has recorded a lot of Bach, and a lot of other stuff, and my rule is: if he's recorded it then listen, even if it's not your usual fare, he will probably persuade you.
My favourite pianist.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

This is my favorite recording of Bach's Violin Concertos - a HIP recording with Andrew Manze (I always enjoy his baroque recordings).








For the Cello Suites, I think this recording is a great one to get started with:








I love Walcha on the organ, but if you want something more bite-sized, in addition to that wonderful Suzuki recording mentioned above, I really love John Butt's recordings, like this one:








The Perahia Goldberg Variations:








Finally - I know you don't necessarily like the choral/vocal works, but they truly are a major, and beautiful part of Bach's works. Several great cantatas have been mentioned, but the work that got me into his choral works was his majestic Mass in B Minor. There is an embarrassment of riches in terms of great recordings of this, but I love most all of Suzuki's recordings of Bach's choral works, and this is no exception, in pristine sound and HIP performance:








Those are the works that got me into Bach, although not those specific recordings. I listened to a lot of others, including Pinnock. But these are the best, for me, that I can recommend.


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## hiroica (Aug 31, 2015)

Do you have Spotify? I have a playlist I made for my gf who is not a classical fan necessarily and would probably be turned off by anything with a harpsichord or that sounds overtly baroque. So the playlist is just piano pieces (very few or of the ones you might find on a “greatest hits” type collection). The pieces I collected highlight some of Bach’s most emotional, peaceful, spiritual (to me) pieces that she could listen to if she got overwhelmed at work. These pieces will cleanse your psyche and replenish your soul imo and could be a great way to unlock some of Bach’s magic (which in these pieces particularly is equal parts emotionally and intellectually stimulating—though most all of his music is this way once u get into it). You probably already have enough suggestions but if this interest u lmk and I’ll send a link )


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

My recommended list of starter Bach recordings:

Mass in B Minor: Suzuki (HIP), Jochum or Marriner (modern)
St. Matthew Passion: Harnoncourt (HIP), Jochum (modern)
St. John Passion: Jochum stereo
Magnificat: Marriner
Cantatas: Suzuki 
Alto cantatas: Scholl/Herreweghe
Brandenburgs: Pinnock (HIP), Britten (modern)
Orchestral Suites: Savall (HIP), Casals (modern)
Violin concerti: Standage/Pinnock (HIP), Oistrakh/RPO (modern)
Keyboard concerti: Perahia (piano)
Oboe concerti: Naxos album
Sonatas for violin and keyboard: Barton Pine/Vinikour (harpsichord)
Solo violin: Podger (HIP), Ehnes (modern)
Cello Suites: Bylsma (HIP), Kirshbaum (modern)
Goldbergs: Schiff ECM, Rana
WTC: Crossland, Richter (piano); Landowska (harpsichord)
Keyboard partitas: Levit
French and English Suites: Gould, Schiff
Art of Fugue: Marriner (ensemble), Walcha (organ)
Musical Offering: Marriner 
Clavier-Ubung III: Suzuki 
Selected organ works: Biggs, Richter


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

My favorite recording of the Magnificat (edit: although I do also like the Rilling recording, in D major with the "Christmas portions" included):


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I am not expert, but one of my favorite interpreters of Bach's music is Otto Klemperer - being it Mass in B Minor or the Matthäus-Passion. Klemperer has slower tempi than most and that somehow makes the music more majestic.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

consuono said:


>


I don't like this channel, there are videos where the scroll speed is so fast (to catch up with fast tempos of the pieces), it makes my eyes hurt. 
Something like this is impressive though, makes me wonder how they made it:


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I have that Perahia recording and love it. I enjoy most of Perahia's Bach recordings, and his Goldberg Variations are my favorite (although I also have numerous recordings of that work on harp, harpsichord, viola consort, and organ).





Eclectic Al said:


> Perahia has recorded a lot of Bach, and a lot of other stuff, and my rule is: if he's recorded it then listen, even if it's not your usual fare, he will probably persuade you.
> My favourite pianist.


I'm not an expert, but I have yet to hear him play something that I didn't like his playing.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> For the Cello Suites, I think this recording is a great one to get started with:
> View attachment 135053


 I have that in my playlist and was listening on the way to work today. For a guy with an impossible name to pronounce, he makes everything sounds effortless! I've heard him on several recordings now and he's fantastic.



Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Finally - I know you don't necessarily like the choral/vocal works, but they truly are a major, and beautiful part of Bach's works. Several great cantatas have been mentioned, but the work that got me into his choral works was his majestic Mass in B Minor. There is an embarrassment of riches in terms of great recordings of this, but I love most all of Suzuki's recordings of Bach's choral works, and this is no exception, in pristine sound and HIP performance:
> View attachment 135056
> 
> 
> Those are the works that got me into Bach, although not those specific recordings. I listened to a lot of others, including Pinnock. But these are the best, for me, that I can recommend.





Jacck said:


> I am not expert, but one of my favorite interpreters of Bach's music is Otto Klemperer - being it Mass in B Minor or the Matthäus-Passion. Klemperer has slower tempi than most and that somehow makes the music more majestic.


When I finally do listen to this piece, these will be the recordings I listen to!


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

hiroica said:


> Do you have Spotify? I have a playlist I made for my gf who is not a classical fan necessarily and would probably be turned off by anything with a harpsichord or that sounds overtly baroque. So the playlist is just piano pieces (very few or of the ones you might find on a "greatest hits" type collection). The pieces I collected highlight some of Bach's most emotional, peaceful, spiritual (to me) pieces that she could listen to if she got overwhelmed at work. These pieces will cleanse your psyche and replenish your soul imo and could be a great way to unlock some of Bach's magic (which in these pieces particularly is equal parts emotionally and intellectually stimulating-though most all of his music is this way once u get into it). You probably already have enough suggestions but if this interest u lmk and I'll send a link )


I really appreciate the offer, but I am on Amazon music rather than spotify. Thank you though.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> My recommended list of starter Bach recordings:
> 
> Mass in B Minor: Suzuki (HIP), Jochum or Marriner (modern)
> St. Matthew Passion: Harnoncourt (HIP), Jochum (modern)
> ...


This is a very helpful post. I'll keep referring back to these suggested lists as I continue to explore. Thanks.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

My second favorite miscellaneous keyboard work of Bach (after Chromatic Fantasie und fugue) is probably BWV944, it just feels so nostalgic. I practiced it on the piano once; very exciting to play. I believe it's a fugue based on a theme by Torelli.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Ha ha ha - you thought you were asking a simple question, and now it is like drinking from a fire hose!!!!

Lots of great recommendations here. Take your time and most of all, enjoy it. Bach is incredible, and any time spent listening to his works is time well spent.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> Ha ha ha - you thought you were asking a simple question, and now it is like drinking from a fire hose!!!!
> 
> Lots of great recommendations here. Take your time and most of all, enjoy it. Bach is incredible, and any time spent listening to his works is time well spent.


Lol. Yeah, I'm noticing.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I didn't know the flute sonata, and it's a very enjoyable and melodic piece


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

This is good advice. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, be open minded and give it time. Hopefully I can find some music of his that I enjoy enough to listen repeatedly and see if it takes. "


I would not quite expect someone fall in love with baroque music instantly these days, even genius need some training. I love every single piece of JS Bach, this is the same what I wish for every JS Bach listener, no matter how long that will take, just enjoy.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

If it's not Glenn Gould playing _any piece here_, then we don't need to discuss.

For real though, as many great suggestions have been posted above, for me, one of *Bach's* critical mediums of the modern era is *Glenn Gould*, playing any of his limitless piano/keyboard/harpsichord/etc. works. You simply cannot go wrong with that pairing.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Avey said:


> If it's not Glenn Gould playing _any piece here_, then we don't need to discuss.
> 
> For real though, as many great suggestions have been posted above, for me, one of *Bach's* critical mediums of the modern era is *Glenn Gould*, playing any of his limitless piano/keyboard/harpsichord/etc. works. You simply cannot go wrong with that pairing.


Gould is fine for most things. What I don't get is this attitude that he is the be-all-end-all in Bach keyboard playing. Too often I find him dry, mechanical, and soulless with absolutely no eye towards the inherent warmth and humanity of Bach's music. I feel like he just treats the music as a bunch of etudes to showcase his technique, not changing his touch or dynamics at all. I don't mind him in the French and English suites and I love the '81 Goldbergs, but I find his WTC unlistenable. His slow movements are heavenly, and I think he plays much better in more introspective stuff like Brahms's late piano works. I understand that some people like him because he brings out the counterpoint so clearly, but overall I'm a bit flustered about why he's so revered. I fear that those who deride Bach as "academic and robotic" are only familiar with Gould. Of course, just my perceptions.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Gould is fine for most things. What I don't get is this attitude that he is the be-all-end-all in Bach keyboard playing. Too often I find him dry, mechanical, and soulless with absolutely no eye towards the inherent warmth and humanity of Bach's music. I feel like he just treats the music as a bunch of etudes to showcase his technique, not changing his touch or dynamics at all. I don't mind him in the French and English suites and I love the '81 Goldbergs, but I find his WTC unlistenable. His slow movements are heavenly, and I think he plays much better in more introspective stuff like Brahms's late piano works. I understand that some people like him because he brings out the counterpoint so clearly, but overall I'm a bit flustered about why he's so revered. I fear that those who deride Bach as "academic and robotic" are only familiar with Gould. Of course, just my perceptions.


I have his '81 Goldbergs - it was my first recording of that wonderful work. But I've never been able to quite grasp the fanfare around him.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't like this channel, there are videos where the scroll speed is so fast (to catch up with fast tempos of the pieces), it makes my eyes hurt.


Well...close your eyes. :lol: I think the scrolling idea is good for solo or small ensembles, bewildering for larger scale stuff. And three frames at once is too much.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Gould is fine for most things. What I don't get is this attitude that he is the be-all-end-all in Bach keyboard playing. Too often I find him dry, mechanical, and soulless with absolutely no eye towards the inherent warmth and humanity of Bach's music. I feel like he just treats the music as a bunch of etudes to showcase his technique, not changing his touch or dynamics at all. I don't mind him in the French and English suites and I love the '81 Goldbergs, but I find his WTC unlistenable. His slow movements are heavenly, and I think he plays much better in more introspective stuff like Brahms's late piano works. I understand that some people like him because he brings out the counterpoint so clearly, but overall I'm a bit flustered about why he's so revered. I fear that those who deride Bach as "academic and robotic" are only familiar with Gould. Of course, just my perceptions.


I really like Glenn Gould, and probably have close to everything he ever recorded in my collection. I think Gould's Beethoven, Brahms and Mozart are excellent even if his take is somewhat outside-the-box. It's all very interesting in that Gould, I guess, had mixed feelings about Beethoven and held Mozart in even lower esteem. Not known as much of an interpreter of very pretty, high Romantic works, Gould's recording of Grieg's Sonata is excellent. The "Valse" by Ravel is also great, as well as, Gould's penchant for Richard Strauss, Paul Hindemith, and Arnold Schoenberg. Gould also recorded a lovely collection of keyboard works by pre-Baroque composers Byrd and Orlando Gibbons. During the 1980s, when I first started collecting classical music Gould's star as far as Bach is concerned was somewhat waning maybe as a consequence of the HIP movement that was all the rage by then, but I still find Gould's Bach to be quite enjoyable...

...then there's also Gould's singing...


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Coach G said:


> I really like Glenn Gould, and probably have close to everything he ever recorded in my collection. I think Gould's Beethoven, Brahms and Mozart are excellent even if his take is somewhat outside-the-box. It's all very interesting in that Gould, I guess, had mixed feelings about Beethoven and held Mozart in even lower esteem. Not known as much of an interpreter of very pretty, high Romantic works, Gould's recording of Grieg's Sonata is excellent. The "Valse" by Ravel is also great, as well as, Gould's penchant for Richard Strauss, Paul Hindemith, and Arnold Schoenberg. Gould also recorded a lovely collection of keyboard works by pre-Baroque composers Byrd and Orlando Gibbons. During the 1980s, when I first started collecting classical music Gould's star as far as Bach is concerned was somewhat waning maybe as a consequence of the HIP movement that was all the rage by then, but I still find Gould's Bach to be quite enjoyable...
> 
> ...then there's also Gould's singing...


He's very interesting and even revelatory in Beethoven and Brahms, and his championing of certain lesser-known and modern works (like the Strauss and Grieg sonatas, Schoenberg and Webern's piano music, and even early keyboard pieces like Gibbons and Byrd) is very admirable and worth a listen. I'm just lukewarm on his Bach.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Coach G said:


> ...then there's also Gould's singing...


I was listening to something of his just today. I've heard so much Bach in the past day and a half that I can't remember if it was Goldberg Variations or maybe the English suites, but I heard him humming along while he was playing. So I put some Perahia on instead. I don't know why anyone would do that on a recording.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I was listening to something of his just today. I've heard so much Bach in the past day and a half that I can't remember if it was Goldberg Variations or maybe the English suites, but I heard him humming along while he was playing. So I put some Perahia on instead. I don't know why anyone would do that on a recording.


Yeah, he vocalizes a lot when he plays. You can learn to tune it out, and he is worth hearing. Just not my preferred performer.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Gould is fine for most things. What I don't get is this attitude that he is the be-all-end-all in Bach keyboard playing. Too often I find him dry, mechanical, and soulless with absolutely no eye towards the inherent warmth and humanity of Bach's music. I feel like he just treats the music as a bunch of etudes to showcase his technique, not changing his touch or dynamics at all. I don't mind him in the French and English suites and I love the '81 Goldbergs, but I find his WTC unlistenable. His slow movements are heavenly, and I think he plays much better in more introspective stuff like Brahms's late piano works. I understand that some people like him because he brings out the counterpoint so clearly, but overall I'm a bit flustered about why he's so revered. I fear that those who deride Bach as "academic and robotic" are only familiar with Gould. Of course, just my perceptions.


I put much emphasis on Bach's counterpoint; it's the essence of his architecture. As you noted, Gould's counterpoint is clear as a bell. In addition, he gives equal weight to each musical line unlike most who offer us a "binary" Bach. That's what makes Gould's Bach special to me. However, he's not my favorite Bach pianist; that distinction goes to Rosalyn Tureck.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Josquin13 said:


> My initial thought is to suggest that you start with the Brandenburg Concertos 1-6, and don't miss the wonderful harpsichord solo in No. 5:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great list! I'd just insert the Cello Suites (and if the OP enjoys acoustic guitar, the Lute Suites on either lute or guitar) between 3 and 4.


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

jegreenwood said:


> Great list! I'd just insert the Cello Suites (and if the OP enjoys acoustic guitar, the Lute Suites on either lute or guitar) between 3 and 4.


In fact, the OP plays guitar and loves it. I completely forgot he had written lute pieces.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> In fact, the OP plays guitar and loves it. I completely forgot he had written lute pieces.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

I read somewhere that Bach... had a special relationship with the organ. 

To a 'newbie', I always suggest the lesser known gem (of around 5 minutes) by the young Bach: the Praeludium & Fugue in E minor, BWV 533.
(Dorien Schouten, choir organ by Reil, Bovenkerk, Kampen, NL)






And, to appreciate Bach's skills as a composer of chorale arrangements, I usually 'tip' the 3 _Leipziger Choräle_ based on the hymn "Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland", BWV 659-661. One melody, three totally different arrangements. Touching, beautiful, awesome, everything.
(Sietze de Vries, Ten Damme/De Mare/Helman/Schitger/Hinsz/Ahrend et al  organ, Martinikerk, Groningen, NL)


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> Marriner is about the last performance I would suggest (sour modern strings etc.)
> 
> FWIW, my primary recommendations:
> 
> ...


Great list... concur on most of these ... would only add:
Reinhard Goebel/Musica Antiqua Köln (orchestral)

and for curiosity (almost a precursor to HIP):
Scherchen/CBC Toronto Chamber Orchestra


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## The3Bs (Apr 1, 2020)

starthrower said:


> The Marriner is fine. Who wants to listen to the whole thing on a freaking harpsichord? Not me. I prefer the variations in instrumentation on Marriner's recording. Cafe Zimmermann is a good choice for the Brandenburg Concertos.


Concur on the Cafe Zimmermann... when I discover them I had it on repeat for ages... I love specially the wind instruments on this recording.


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## BeoQuartet (May 3, 2020)

*Art of Fugue for Quartet!*

Beo Quartet loves Bach! Sadly Bach didn't write anything _explicitly_ for string quartet, but the Art of Fugue is often played by great ensembles like the Emerson and Juilliard Quartets. We've tried to find creative ways to play this amazing work while in isolation - hope you like it! Art of Fugue Playlist


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

BeoQuartet said:


> Beo Quartet loves Bach! Sadly Bach didn't write anything _explicitly_ for string quartet, but the Art of Fugue is often played by great ensembles like the Emerson and Juilliard Quartets. We've tried to find creative ways to play this amazing work while in isolation - hope you like it! Art of Fugue Playlist


Hey! Very well done! I loved watching and listening to that. Thanks for sharing it. :clap:


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

BeoQuartet said:


> Beo Quartet loves Bach! Sadly Bach didn't write anything _explicitly_ for string quartet, but the Art of Fugue is often played by great ensembles like the Emerson and Juilliard Quartets. We've tried to find creative ways to play this amazing work while in isolation - hope you like it! Art of Fugue Playlist


This was a good watch. Thanks!


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

The3Bs said:


> Great list... concur on most of these ... would only add:
> Reinhard Goebel/Musica Antiqua Köln (orchestral)
> 
> and for curiosity (almost a precursor to HIP):
> Scherchen/CBC Toronto Chamber Orchestra


Goebel et al indeed.
For me: still first choice for the Brandenburgers, and a very good choice for lots of the chamber music.

By the way: this thread might also be of interest for 'newbies'. 

J. S. Bach - the Three Hour Taster.


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## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I'm looking for his easiest, friendliest pieces. [/B]


Quite, which is not the same as 'Best of Bach' for those of us already well hooked.

Applying your desideratum to Bach's organ works, which are sometimes considered a daunting prospect, I'd recommend kicking off with his Trio Sonatas (BWV 525-30). The textures are more transparent than in most of his organ music, and the outer movements are lively, approachable and fun. If you enjoy Bach's concertos, you should have little difficulty appreciating these.

Daniel Chorzempa brought out a fabulous set on Philips in the 1970s which is still available, and imho not yet surpassed. Played on a Dutch organ offering the most beautiful registrations, and with all the parts clear as a bell. At any event, try to avoid big organs recorded in a reverberant acoustic for these. If you like the sonatas, you can also find them on pedal harpsichord, piano or just about any combination of instruments imaginable.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

For easiest, you may want to check out his Two Part Inventions (and then move on to his Three Part Sinfonias). They were my introduction to counterpoint. I have Gould and Schiff on piano and prefer Schiff. I also have Blandine Verlet on harpsichord.

These were instructional pieces. There are 15 of each and they are very short.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

The Inventions/Sinfonias is a great recommendation - so easy to absorb.

This review I did for the Bach Cantatas website sums up my preferences for harpsichord versions:

Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias

Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)
2-Part Inventions (15), BWV 772-786
3-Part Sinfonias (15), BWV 787-801

Elisabeth Joyé (harpsichord)
Recorded December 2001
Released July 2004
Alpha Productions 034 [56:32]

w/Little Preludes, BWV 933-940 & 999
Fughetta in C minor, BWV 961
Prelude and Fugue in A minor, BWV 895
Bob van Asperen (harpsichord)
Recorded September 1999
Released August 2006
Aeolus 10034 [78:15]

As many readers know, the pieces on these two discs were composed by Bach to be used by students as 'exercises'. However, Bach's genius is in clear display, as he was apparently unable to supress his supreme
musical mind whenver he put pen to paper. So do put away any thoughts that the Inventions/Sinfonias are "lesser Bach" and not to be taken seriously.

There are many excellent recordings of the Inventions/Sinfonias, my favorites on harpsichord coming from Kenneth Gilbert on Harmonia Mundi, Gustav Leonhardt on Sony, Blandine Verlet on Naive and Masaaki Suzuki on BIS. I can't say that Elisabeth Joye's performances are on such an exalted level, but she does offer a few outstanding qualities that demand attention.

First, I'll get any and all reservations out of the way. Put simply, Joye's performances are not very interesting as she progresses through the 'exercises'. The primary reasons are a lack of sufficient variety in both articulation and tempo; Joye rarely varies tempo within each piece, so you won't hear any hesitations in phrasing or staggering of musical lines. It's all very straight-forward and lacking in fizz. Another problematic area concerns Bach's faster pieces, as Joye plays most of them much slower than the norm and thereby greatly diminishes
the visceral impact and exuberance of the music; the Inventions in D major and E flat major along with the Sinfonia in D major are prime examples. Continuing along, Joye's penchant is for rounded phrasing, and a few of Bach's pieces demand sharpened contours such as the Invention in B flat major with its double-dotted rhythms. Finally, Joye is not one to explore the dark side of Bach's music; her Inventions in F minor and B minor are particularly benign.

With the above array of negatives to contend with, the Joye disc would seem to be one to avoid. But such is not the case, primarily because I have not heard a version of these works that is so luxurious, elegant and comforting. Basically, every aspect of the production is lush from the rich 1993 Philippe Humeau harpsichord built on the specifications of a Carl Conrad Fleischer model (1720) to the opulent soundstage. This is the essence of "Papa Bach", as he stretches out his arms to envelop and comfort all believers. Joye's luxurious treatment hits its peak in the Inventions in G minor and A minor where the music is suspended on a bed of velvet; the Sinfonia in C major finds Joye giving a wonderful account full of love and elegance.

Having stated above that Joye tends to apply rounded contours, I should point out that her Sinfonias in E flat major and B minor use a brisk staccato that is very refreshing after so many smooth applications. Other compelling highlights include the delightful optimism of the Sinfonia in E major and the oozing warmth and acceptance of the Sinfonias in F major, F minor and B flat major.

Turning to the veteran early music keyboardist Bob van Asperen, we leave the world of luxury and comfort for a universe of true dialogue. Right from the 1st Invention in C major, it is clear that meaningful conversations are taking place, while Elisabeth Joyé merely creates a particular atmosphere. The sense of dialogue from van Asperen continues throughout his performances, and I can't emphasize enough how his style makes the music come alive. In addition, he makes subtle use of tempo changes and hesitations that significantly add to the invention of the music.

Concerning specifics, the bitter/sweet nature of the Invention in C minor is incisively explored by van Asperen. He plays the faster pieces quickly, eliciting from this reviewer a exciting sense of tension and exuberance; notable for this effect are his performances of the Inventions in D major, E flat major and G major where excitement and joy leap out of the speakers. Want a little menace? Look no further than van Asperen's Inventions in E minor and B minor. If you're seeking a frenetic performance of the Invention in F major, van Asperen's your man. The sole Invention that disappoints a little is the one in B flat major where van Asperen
takes the same rounded approach as Joye; that surprised me considering van Asperen's usual regimen.

How about van Asperen's Sinfonias? They also constitute entirely compelling music-making such as the pristine and lovely interpretation of the Sinfonia in C major, the driving rhythms of the D major, the remorse van Asperen shares with us in the D minor, and the exquisite dialogue of the E flat major, G minor, and A minor Sinfonias.

More treasure is found in van Asperen's Sinfonia in E minor. This piece is a musical depiction of redemption, and van Asperen takes us from the bottom of despair to a spiritual enlightenment. There's no such luck for the bleak personality of thF minor, and van Asperen gives a superb account of life without faith. van Asperen can also possess a bubbling demeanor as shown in his performances of the Sinfonias in A major and B flat major.

Not content to simply give us a "top-echelon" recording of the Inventions and Sinfonias, van Asperen offers an additional 12 short Bach exercises that are completely delightful with many snatches of melodies the composer used in his more mature works. van Asperen conveys such an enticing range of colours, that this "simple Bach" takes on more substance than I've ever heard in alternative recordings.

Don's Conclusions: In state-of-the-art sound, van Asperen's magnificent recording takes pride of place in my collection of Bach's Inventions/Sinfonias with the additional exercises a wonderful bonus. Elisabeth Joyé's performance has a very limited agenda, but she executes it beautifully with instrument and soundstage in perfect union; if the luxurious treatment appeals, Joye delivers the goods.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Although these pieces are actually not very easy at all… I still dare to nag about compositions for one of my favourite instruments: the organ. 
I therefore heartily recommend the 6 Trio Sonatas, BWV 525-530. These sonatas were most likely composed for Bach's eldest son, Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, to teach him how to play on a keyboard instrument with added pedals. From what I've heard by organists… these pieces are darn difficult to play. Poor Friedemann. 

When played on a beautiful instrument (there are plenty of them, btw), by an organist who has a good feeling for picking lovely registrations/stops, then these pieces are a true delight for both ear and soul, imho. And, like the Inventionen & Sinfonien, the listener gets a great idea of Bach's delicate counterpoint in a less 'heavy' way.

Here's a performance you cannot go wrong with: Simon Preston playing the Klaïs-organ of the Katharinakirche in Blankenberg, Germany. Crystal clear and gorgeous.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I am generally not a fan of organ music, but the trio sonatas are great

(I must admit, though, I listen to Heinz Holliger's arrangement for oboe and accompaniment more often.)


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

A lot of good posts here. Josquin13 took a great neutral road with the HIP and non HIP. Trevor Pinnock, imo performs the perfect blend of these two worlds and I find his ensemble Bach pieces to be top notch. For the life of me, I have never understood this Steel-like rigidity that things MUST be HIP. It's like racing in Formula One and insisting on using a foot clutch and gear box because hey, "That's the old 'authentic' traditional way to auto race" instead of using the modern paddle shift. I find almost all HIP recordings tinny, weak, screechy, and lacking warmth. But if that's your bag baby, then I say rock on!

On Gould: To me, there is no better keyboardist on Bach (Not to say there are not other Great ones) I do believe however, the man was an idiot savant. I find his Beethoven and anything from the Romantic Era dreadful. But Bach...? I do believe he has no equal. Yes, true, he hums, but just like with some historical recordings from great masters (Josef Hoffman on piano, Furtwangler's Beethoven symphonies, etc.), if you can listen (not hear, but "listen") through the hiss of old recordings, often what you will hear is sublime. That is what you will hear if you "listen" through Gould's humming. The man was an eccentric X10. We're all a "package."

If you graduate to some of the most grandeur pieces Bach ever wrote (his Choral works) such as the Mass in B Minor, St. Matthews & St. John's Passion, Christmas Oratorio, etc. Then there is no higher, more beautiful, capturing of the "divine" in those pieces than Karl Richter's Bach (right now, all the HIPsters just threw their drink at their computer screen in outrage).

What I'm trying to say is that plant based meat substitutes will never match the juiciness, heartiness, and flavor of eating an actual plant eater.

I'm also trying to say that it is Good to listen to the great "recordings" that have become so famous (ie: Gould's Bach, particularly his Goldergs from 1955, Fritz Reiner's Verdi's Requiem). There's a reason why most of them are so famous. I'm not big fan of it, but I would suggest at least listening to John Elliot Gardiner's Messiah. It's been historically rated as one of the top recordings. Then listen to Richter's. This way you get to understand (and be confused by) the thin, shallow sounds of HIP vs. the full, voluptuous, transcendent sounds of non HIP.

Just some food for thought. But regardless, while all the HIPsters here start foaming at the mouth in outrage and replying how "authenticity" is the be all and end all of musical pursuits (and how I'm talking out of my a$$), enjoy your foray into Bach. There is a lifetime of exploration in this one GREAT composer. Good listening!!!

V


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

Oh yeah, 1 more thing: For Bach Cello Suites: Pierre Fournier & Janos Starker. I give a slight nod to Pierre, but they are both excellent.

V


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Varick said:


> A lot of good posts here. Josquin13 took a great neutral road with the HIP and non HIP. Trevor Pinnock, imo performs the perfect blend of these two worlds and I find his ensemble Bach pieces to be top notch. For the life of me, I have never understood this Steel-like rigidity that things MUST be HIP. It's like racing in Formula One and insisting on using a foot clutch and gear box because hey, "That's the old 'authentic' traditional way to auto race" instead of using the modern paddle shift. I find almost all HIP recordings tinny, weak, screechy, and lacking warmth. But if that's your bag baby, then I say rock on!


Yeah, I've really appreciated the reponses here. I've gotten a ton of ideas of what to listen to. Also, I agree on the neutral road. To be honest, in the brief time I've been here on TC I've been a little surprised at how...entrenched...the two camps get in some of the discussions here. I assume a few of the...heated discussions...are serious and some not, and that most folks likely fall in the middle and don't want to argue about it. I just look for what's good and I learn a lot from the historical anecdotes that get thrown around in those discussions. I like both but I draw the line at purchasing scratchy/hissy old recordings for repeated listening. That said, I listened to Rachmaninoff's 2nd concerto being performed by himself and enjoyed it immensely for the historical experience. I wouldn't buy a copy, but I'd likely listen to it again. Thank God for streaming services. I'm listening to Marriner/ASMF doing Brandenburg #3 right now and immensely enjoying it BTW. This is one I'm thinking I'm going to buy.



Varick said:


> If you graduate to some of the most grandeur pieces Bach ever wrote (his Choral works) such as the Mass in B Minor, St. Matthews & St. John's Passion, Christmas Oratorio, etc. Then there is no higher, more beautiful, capturing of the "divine" in those pieces than Karl Richter's Bach (right now, all the HIPsters just threw their drink at their computer screen in outrage).


I'll check it out. I just listened to a couple of the choral works this past week (Mass in bm and St MAtthew), and I'm still not in the right frame of mind to give them a fair hearing, so I'm going to try again later.



Varick said:


> What I'm trying to say is that plant based meat substitutes will never match the juiciness, heartiness, and flavor of eating an actual plant eater.


This made me laugh!



Varick said:


> I'm also trying to say that it is Good to listen to the great "recordings" that have become so famous (ie: Gould's Bach, particularly his Goldergs from 1955, Fritz Reiner's Verdi's Requiem). There's a reason why most of them are so famous. I'm not big fan of it, but I would suggest at least listening to John Elliot Gardiner's Messiah. It's been historically rated as one of the top recordings. Then listen to Richter's. This way you get to understand (and be confused by) the thin, shallow sounds of HIP vs. the full, voluptuous, transcendent sounds of non HIP.


I don't know you so I'm not sure how serious you are about the sound qualities of HIP music or if you're just trolling, but for some reason Gardiner doesn't really do it for me, even though I've listened to quite a few recordings in both 'styles' and enjoyed both in spite of their differences. I'll check these out



Varick said:


> Just some food for thought. But regardless, while all the HIPsters here start foaming at the mouth in outrage and replying how "authenticity" is the be all and end all of musical pursuits (and how I'm talking out of my a$$), enjoy your foray into Bach. There is a lifetime of exploration in this one GREAT composer. Good listening!!!


Thanks. I'm enjoying it so far. Thanks to the replies here, I've actually found a few of his works that I find that I'm loving on more than a mathematical/intellectual level.



Varick said:


> Oh yeah, 1 more thing: For Bach Cello Suites: Pierre Fournier & Janos Starker. I give a slight nod to Pierre, but they are both excellent.
> 
> V


Thanks. I'll check it out.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

BlackAdderLXX said:


> I don't know you so I'm not sure how serious you are about the sound qualities of HIP music or if you're just trolling, but for some reason Gardiner doesn't really do it for me, even though I've listened to quite a few recordings in both 'styles' and enjoyed both in spite of their differences. I'll check these out


I am seriously not a fan of HIP, however I am a live and let live kind of guy. To each his own. I throw the extra digs in there just to ruffle the feathers of some of the more fuddy duddys on here (there are a "few"). But I have no malice towards HIPsters. I'm sure a few of them are nice people who actually don't kick puppies.

I used to enjoy Gardiner because 35 years ago when I started buying classical music, his were some of the first recordings I ever bought, so I had nothing to compare. Then (ironically it was Handel's Messiah) I bought a Karl Richter CD, and my world was opened. The blinders and training wheels came off and I was transported to another world filled with depth, emotion, sublimity, fullness and richness in sound, and yes, dare I say, a sacredness in music.

But that was me. We all have our own journey. Carry on!

V


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The B Minor Mass. Before I listened to it, I had only listened to compilation CDs, and thought Baroque was Vivaldi-type stuff.

I prefer a period performance. Klemperer is too slow and heavy for a good _first impression_.


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