# Borodin's 2nd Symphony a Masterpiece?



## ClassicalDJ

I am relatively new to this symphony and am almost completely unfamiliar with the rest of Borodin's oeuvre. I have been listening to the recent Rattle/BPO recording over the last few days and finding it highly enjoyable. I remember reading this work described as a "masterpiece" in Harold Schonberg's book "The Lives of the Great Composers", and I may agree with this assessment. The first and third movements are especially attractive to me. We will see how it wears on me over time. I am curious how other forum members rank this work against others of the Romantic era.


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## Ukko

"I am curious how other forum members rank this work against others of the Romantic era."

In the top 50.


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## elgar's ghost

I can't claim to have heard every single Russian composer from the Romantic era but from what I have heard Borodin is second only to Tchaikovsky in terms of his symphonic output as whole and either of his completed symphonies would make it into my Russian Romantic-era Top Five and both would be in the Top Ten.


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## KenOC

elgars ghost said:


> ...either of his completed symphonies would make it into my Russian Romantic-era Top Five and both would be in the Top Ten.


I agree, and exactly.


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## Ukko

KenOC said:


> I agree, and exactly.


I do not... exactly.


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## mmsbls

His 2nd symphony came in #150 on The TC Top 150 Recommended Symphonies list. That list includes symphonies from all eras. I would personally have placed Borodin's 2nd significantly higher on that list.


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## Vaneyes

It had a short lifespan with me, as did the other symphonies. Prefer the string quartets, but overall, consider him to be a minor composer. The strength isn't there. Too much pablum.


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## clavichorder

elgars ghost said:


> I can't claim to have heard every single Russian composer from the Romantic era but from what I have heard Borodin is second only to Tchaikovsky in terms of his symphonic output as whole and either of his completed symphonies would make it into my Russian Romantic-era Top Five and both would be in the Top Ten.


In terms of the late Romantics and discounting Rachmaninoff or Scriabin, Glazunov is easily above Borodin in symphonic output, in my opinion. More consistent writer, better craftsman, and some truly inspired works. Nonetheless, Borodin's 2nd, for its repetitiveness and orchestral clunkiness at times, is wonderfully original and catchy, probably more than things Glazunov wrote, so it depends on what you like, though Glazunov at his best has a conservative charm that could win any lover of Schubert or Mendelssohn over, with a more Russian flavor. Anyway, with regards to Borodin, some might argue that Balakirev wrote better symphonies as well.

I have to agree a bit with Vaneyes. When I first heard it, it was exactly what I had been looking for, and I was in awe. But I don't feel quite as nuts about it these days, though I still like it.


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## elgar's ghost

To be honest, I could have thought about this much, much better. I was discounting Rachmaninov due to the timeline - this was probably a mistake and as for Glazunov I haven't heard enough his work to involve him. My thinking was also fatally flawed by comparing Borodin's symphonies to some which sprang to mind which have never really impressed me - Gliere's first two, Rubinstein's, two of RK's, ones by Lyapunov and Steinberg etc. Just to rub some well-deserved salt into my own wounds I'd even completely forgotten about Balakirev which is doubly embarrassing since I like his two symphonies very much.

Erm...can I try again?


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## KenOC

My response is mostly based on -- does it hold my interest? In the case of Borodin's #2, pretty much. Ditto Kalinnovov's #1 and some of Tchaikovsky's. The others (Glazunov, Gliere, etc.) not so much.


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## clavichorder

elgars ghost said:


> My thinking was also fatally flawed by comparing Borodin's symphonies to some which sprang to mind which have never really impressed me - Gliere's first two, Rubinstein's, two of RK's, ones by Lyapunov and Steinberg etc.


The fact that you mention those names leads me to solidly respect your understanding of the subject, no worries! Yep, Borodin's is definitely more signature than any of those symphonies. None of those symphonies are bad, and all of them are interesting in parts, some are on the whole well made, but Borodin's has a more clearly luminescent spark in its themes and ideas for sure. Franz Liszt readily picked up on this.

Some Glazunov is missing that spark, but its usually better made and in the case of the one I know well, the 5th, there is very much a spark 



. Of course, my favorite Glazunov is the 1st piano concerto. I'm sure Huilunsoitaja could recommend some Glazunov to me that I would like and hadn't heard.


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## bigshot

I love all the Russians and would have a tough time ranking one above another after a few of the big names.


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## palJacky

borodin's second symphony is one of favorites of that era of russian music.
Personally, It doesn't overstay its welcome for me like the overblown histrionics of those by Tchaikovsky.

Probably lies pretty close to the same position in symphonies as his string quartet #2 lies in the for string quartets.

short, sweet, earthy and very russian..

something to play between more substantial works on a rainy afternoon.

My preferred recording is the soviet era Svetlanov. the Jarvi on DG is very good as well and would be my recommendation because of price and sound quaility. 
I have yet to hear the new recording of the schwarz on Naxos and that would be my 'next' one to try if I ever get to the point I need another recording of it.


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## Arsakes

I like his 1st most. Also I prefer The unfinished 3rd symphony (if it had another two movements... what a masterpiece it would be) to the second one. 
In general all of them are good, maybe in top 70 to 150 of Romantic symphonies.


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## Richannes Wrahms

It seems people have forgotten how innovative (in terms of rhythm and harmony) and important this Masterpiece was/is. The influence of Borodin can't be underestimated. It also happens to be the realization of the ideal Russian Symphony.


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## Carpentier

I'm not much of a connoisseur, but my two cents are that Kleiber's recording of the Borodin 2 is the greatest recording ever of the greatest piece of music ever. I couldn't hope to argue for that in terms of canonicity, it's just my whim, but still.


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## Marschallin Blair

Carpentier said:


> I'm not much of a connoisseur, but my two cents are that Kleiber's recording of the Borodin 2 is the greatest recording ever of the greatest piece of music ever. I couldn't hope to argue for that in terms of canonicity, it's just my whim, but still.


I wouldn't call it the greatest piece of music ever; but I certainly think the opening bars of the first movement best encapsulate the feel of Czarist, Imperial Russia more than any other Russian symphony I've heard.


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## Carpentier

Well yeah, in the capacity of an expert (which I'm not) I wouldn't say that either, but as regards my personal list of greatest pieces the Borodin 2 tops it, it just elicits an emotional response in me that is unparalleled, it just sounds like I want stuff to sound. 

And on that note, it's a humongous tragedy that the Borodin 3 wasn't finished, the first two movements are almost equal to the entirety of the second in greatness.


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## Ukko

Richannes Wrahms said:


> It seems people have forgotten how innovative (in terms of rhythm and harmony) and important this Masterpiece was/is. The influence of Borodin can't be underestimated. It also happens to be the realization of the ideal Russian Symphony.




I suspect you have used the wrong "___estimated", but I think it's closer to right than the other one.


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## Vasks

When I was young I thought it was a great Russian symphony, but as I've aged I now hear too many flaws; especially too many rough transitions.


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## Fugue Meister

I've just recently started to listen to it a few weeks ago and I think I can say it's quickly becoming one of my favorites. Borodin in general has become a composer I want more of, quite frankly I can't believe it took me this long. His 2 string quartets I find just as intoxicating. 

Man that Borodin, what an interesting fellow.


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## revdrdave

Debussy said the Borodin 2 was the greatest Russian symphony (up to the time he made the comment, presumably), better than any by Tchaikovsky. Far be it from me to contradict Debussy but, much as I love the Borodin, I love Tchaikovsky 6 even more, not to mention Balakirev 1 and Kallinikov 1 and Tanayev 4... My favorite Borodin 2, by the way, is by Kubelik and the VPO.


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## Richannes Wrahms

revdrdave said:


> Debussy said the Borodin 2 was the greatest Russian symphony (up to the time he made the comment, presumably), better than any by Tchaikovsky. Far be it from me to contradict Debussy but, much as I love the Borodin, I love Tchaikovsky 6 even more, not to mention Balakirev 1 and Kallinikov 1 and Tanayev 4... My favorite Borodin 2, by the way, is by Kubelik and the VPO.


The thing is that Tchaikovsky (and Taneyev) isn't characteristically as 'Russian', his music seem much more tamed and 'Germanized'.


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## Guest

mmsbls said:


> His 2nd symphony came in #150 on The TC Top 150 Recommended Symphonies list. That list includes symphonies from all eras. I would personally have placed Borodin's 2nd significantly higher on that list.


Higher than many of the odd choices on the list, but lower than even more choices that did not make the list, am I right?


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## haziz

Absolutely! I would rank it in my personal top 20 symphonies, on many days creeping into the top 10.


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## mr bob

This particular symphony is not of tremendous value (to me), but the other orchestral work Polovtsian Dances truly a masterpiece in my opinion. I'd put the Dances somewhere high in a list.


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## Rogerx

haziz said:


> Absolutely! I would rank it in my personal top 20 symphonies, on many days creeping into the top 10.


Try the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra, Valery Gergiev combined with 1 , stunning.


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## Emperor of the North

I bought the Seattle Symphony/Schwarz Symphonies 1-3 disc on Naxos kind of on a whim. Wanting to learn more about Russian composers of the Romantic Era, I already had String Quartets 1 & 2/Haydn Quartet also on Naxos which I enjoyed enough to want to further explore Borodin so I bought it "blind" only going by the reviews of others. I expect there are others who prefer other recordings, but I certainly liked them enough to feel my money was justly spent.


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## CnC Bartok

It's an absolute masterpiece as far as I am concerned. As is No.1, which I think is ever so slightly the better work? I have a huge soft spot for Borodin, he was just as good a chemist as composer, myself I struggle to be any good at just the former.

Jean Martinon of course did the recording by which all others should be measured, but Svetlanov pushes him close, and he did all 2 1/2 extremely well. I also love Jarvi's survey, but find Serebrier irritatingly matter-of-fact.


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## Roger Knox

In addition to the symphonies Borodin's symphonic picture _In the Steppes of Central Asia_ was an innovative work, of path-breaking significance to Debussy among others -- as was Mussorgsky's symphonic picture _Night on Bald Mountain_.


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## mbhaub

As it so happens, I'm playing in a concert on Sunday with the Borodin Symphony no. 2. Simply gorgeous, exciting, evocative music. It's an all-Russian concert just in time for Russia to invade Ukraine. Tchaikovsky and Gliere were Ukrainian, and of course the concert also has their music, too. Ending with "1812". Maybe the most politically-incorrect and poorly timed concert I've ever participated in.

Is the 2nd a "masterpiece"? I don't know, depends on how you define it. For me it is. Of all the Russian composers Borodin probably had the highest batting average; did he write anything that wasn't great? Is there anything from his pen that's boring? There is one disc that is like Borodin's Greatest Hits from RCA, when they had the RCA Victor Silver Seal. Loris Tjeknavorian and the National Philharmonic (in iLondon, not DC) with the 2nd symphony, In the Steppes of Central Asia, then excepts from Prince Igor - the overture, March and Polovtsian Dances. If only they had put the Nocturne from the 2nd quartet it'd be perfect. In any case, for many people that one disk is all the Borodin they'd ever need. Highly recommended,


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## Subutai

I've always felt that Mily Balakirev's 1st symphony (ah, that second movement!) to be the best symphony to come out of that early nationalist period, and that includes Rimsky-Korsakov's (whose influence over the Russian classical school must never be under estimated) 2nd symphony 'Antar'. Frankly I prefer Borodin's 1st over the 2nd.
So? any love for Balakirev's 1st OVER Borodin's 2nd?


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## mbhaub

The Balakirev 1st is one of my absolute favorite works - I've collected every known recording I think. It's the third movement that just melts me down - so utterly beautiful. The symphony used to be played by Big Name conductors: Beechan and Karajan for example. But it seems to have really fallen off the charts. I'm surprised Gergiev hasn't recorded it. It'd be nice to have a really fine performance in SACD with a world-class orchestra, but I'm not holding my breath. Having to choose between the Borodin 2nd and Balakirev 1st is really hard, but as a symphonic work, I suppose the Borodin is the better of the two.


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## Subutai

mbhaub said:


> The Balakirev 1st is one of my absolute favorite works - I've collected every known recording I think. It's the third movement that just melts me down - so utterly beautiful. The symphony used to be played by Big Name conductors: Beechan and Karajan for example. But it seems to have really fallen off the charts. I'm surprised Gergiev hasn't recorded it. It'd be nice to have a really fine performance in SACD with a world-class orchestra, but I'm not holding my breath. Having to choose between the Borodin 2nd and Balakirev 1st is really hard, but as a symphonic work, I suppose the Borodin is the better of the two.


Sir! I'd like to buy you a drink! How could one forget that third movement. It is utterly beautiful after the Cossack gallop of the second movement. Just like, okay I'm ready to go now. Those early Russians knew one melody too many. Incomparable. I have three works of it, by Svetlanov on Melodiya , Sinaisky on Chandos and Golovschin on Naxos.


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## Bulldog

I'm not a fan of Borodin's music, so my ranking for his 2nd symphony would be quite low.


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## mbhaub

Subutai said:


> Sir! I'd like to buy you a drink! How could one forget that third movement. It is utterly beautiful after the Cossack gallop of the second movement. Just like, okay I'm ready to go now. Those early Russians knew one melody too many. Incomparable. I have three works of it, by Svetlanov on Melodiya , Sinaisky on Chandos and Golovschin on Naxos.


You really owe it to yourself to hear two early and quite remarkable recordings of the Balakirev: Beecham and Karajan. Both on EMI. The HvK is a mono but the sense of drama and style are irresistible and causes a sense of frustration that he never re-recorded it in stereo with Berlin. Beecham loved the work and played it often and his sense of wonder and Oriental magic is conveyed here just like his Scheherazade.


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## Animal the Drummer

Subutai said:


> I've always felt that Mily Balakirev's 1st symphony (ah, that second movement!) to be the best symphony to come out of that early nationalist period, and that includes Rimsky-Korsakov's (whose influence over the Russian classical school must never be under estimated) 2nd symphony 'Antar'. Frankly I prefer Borodin's 1st over the 2nd.
> So? any love for Balakirev's 1st OVER Borodin's 2nd?


Very definitely. The magical opening of the Balakirev grabbed me by the ears the first time I heard it and has never let go. I like the Borodin symphony of course but it's never got to me in the same way.


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## Pat Fairlea

Borodin's 2nd? I wouldn't call it 'a masterpiece', a term I would use quite sparingly. But it's an enjoyable, engaging piece and the world of symphonies would be poorer without it.


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