# The most dramatic composer



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Sometimes, while listening to Brahms, I'm thinking that music can't get more dramatic than this. I can't name any composers that ends his works with such manner, with the most heavy and dramatic DA-DA-DAAAAAM...!'s chords possible. But it's not about the endings only. I know that some post-romantic composers used to break piano or pianissimo parts with unexpected, loud chords and it's often considered more dramatic than anything else, but I belive this is not the peak of musical dramaticism, but the easiest way to achieve it.

I wonder which composer's names you consider as synonims of dramaticism?

Wagner?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Wagner, Mahler, Wagner, Mahler, Wagner, Mahler....


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Alkan! And Scriabin! I'm starting to sound monotonous, so I guess I'll have to tune down the ranting for today.


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## vamos (Oct 9, 2009)

mahler vs tchaikovsky

both great


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Sibelius is often very dramatic, which is why I love him.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

mahler vs tchaikovsky

And the winner is..............................

Wagner!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Sibelius is often very dramatic, which is why I love him.

Did anyone else see that one coming?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I have to agree about the soft and suddenly loud trick. It is too easy. One way to build drama in music for me is to set up an expectation and then either fulfill what is expected - or not as the composer sees fit. One of the earliest to lead us by the nose (or ears rather) in this fashion is Beethoven. Certainly Brahms is very good at it too, as are most of the big name composers. 

Bruckner is another name that comes to mind for building drama.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Sibelius is often very dramatic, which is why I love him.
> 
> Did anyone else see that one coming?


Am I really that obvious??


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

If you think about it, though, most classical music (unless it light parlor pieces or something like that) has SOME element of the dramatic. We can list composer after composer who had "dramatic" tendencies in their works. I think us classical nuts all must have a flair for the dramatic ourselves...that is why we embrace such dramatic music.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hey, soft and suddenly loud isn't all that bad. Why don't we think about the Swan Lake Waltz for a second here? I think we can all agree that the opening statement is fantastic!


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## Jaime77 (Jun 29, 2009)

Certain single piece can be over-the-top dramatic like Francisca da Rimini by Tchaikovsky. The ending of that is something else, with tam-tams strokes too. 
Speaking of great dramatic endings. I love the ending of Romeo and Juliet Fantasy Overture by the same composer. From the ethereal coda suddenly violent C Major chords.

Thinking about Tchaikovsky I also love the almost ecstatic end to Capriccio Italienne. I wonder if it is wise though to jump up an octave after you have jumped down  A few composers did this. Liszt too in his second Piano Concerto has these big repeated low notes and then decides to jump up an octave or two for the final chord. 

Favourite dramatic endings: I refer to last mvts: Mahler 8, Beethoven 9, Walton Belshazzar's Feast, Grieg Piano Concerto, La Mer. The last on the list there ends with a bass drum only I think? Anyway it is prominent and one good thud at the end can be really effective.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Sibelius is often very dramatic, which is why I love him.


I would rather say that he is sometimes somewhat dramatic. He's unusually undramatic for a late romantic composer.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Before I begin my actual response, I might as well join in with the monotonous "my favourite composer is..." chorus and say that I agree completely about Brahms :d

Seriously though, it depends what you mean by 'dramatic'. Taken literally, only the greatest opera composers would be the greatest dramatists. As you've also pointed out, sudden surprises in dynamics could be considered 'dramatic', but that's not a very good definition.

When I think about 'dramatic', I think about emotional extremes. In this respect, Brahms naturally comes at the top of my list because, by definition, my favourite composer affects me the most emotionally. However, with this kind of drama, I think Tchaikovsky is unmatched - he is the best.

One of the most 'dramatic' things I have ever heard is the first movement to the 4th symphony. After the opening fanfare, there is the descending theme in the strings accompanied by the pulsing in the bass, with a relentless descending then ascending scale in between each repetition. I think that, throughout the piece, this theme returns in 4 different guises. The second is quite close (temporally) to the first, and is much more dramatic. Then there is a significant amount of development before we reach its 3rd manifestation. I remember that the first time I listened to it, I believed this to be the incredible climax of the movement - absolutely terrifying. But then, some time later, near the end, it unexpectedly occurred for a 4th time, in its most dramatic form yet, and I cannot describe how utterly devastating it was.

Other composers are dramatic in different ways, or attempt to be dramatic in a fashion similar to Tchaikovsky (even if not consciously), but his inimitable style will forever remain the pinnacle of emotional extremism.


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## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

What about Strauss? You can't get any more dramatic than the opening of _Also Sprach Zarathustra_.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Of course the obvious Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven.

Then we have people such as LukeCash and Tapkaara who will always mention the same composers  

And I fall into that category as well.. Dvorak


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Dim7 said:


> I would rather say that he is sometimes somewhat dramatic. He's unusually undramatic for a late romantic composer.


Can you please give examples to back up this statement?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

emiellucifuge said:


> Of course the obvious Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven.
> 
> Then we have people such as LukeCash and Tapkaara who will always mention the same composers
> 
> And I fall into that category as well.. Dvorak


Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner and Dvorak get plenty of play around here too.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Hey Chill,
I meant you will always mention Sibelius and LukeCash always Scriabin or Alkan.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

emiellucifuge said:


> Hey Chill,
> I meant you will always mention Sibelius and LukeCash always Scriabin or Alkan.


I got what you meant. Of course I always mention Sibelius...I love him!

We have have composers we adore.


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## nickgray (Sep 28, 2008)

Shostakovich and Wagner first come to mind. Um, Mussorgsky, some Tchaikovsky, Chopin... lots of 'em


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

nickgray said:


> Shostakovich and Wagner first come to mind. Um, Mussorgsky, some Tchaikovsky, Chopin... lots of 'em


That's just my point from earlier: all composers (at least most) have SOME element of high drama in their works, which is why we as humans are drawn to classical music. There is certainly a greater sense of drama, pathos, etc., in classical than probably any other genre, but that is not to discount the "dramatic worth" of other types of music. But in a competition, I think classical would win the title of "most dramatic music."

I think that says a lot about fans of classical music. We must be a bunch of "drama queens!"


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Bruckner sounds extremely dramatic to me or I wonder if the right word should be 'bombastic'. I can't keep up with his mood swings.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Fsharpmajor said:


> What about Strauss? You can't get any more dramatic than the opening of _Also Sprach Zarathustra_.


I agree. I always thought it sounds nothing like Strauss though. Everything past the opening does sound like Strauss, which for me is like he tossed the score pages up in the air, then swept them together at random before sending them to the publisher. It's 4 measures of one thing, then 2 measures of some unrelated thing, then 8 measures of something else, etc. Sometimes I like this, sometimes not.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Hey Chill,
> I meant you will always mention Sibelius and LukeCash always Scriabin or Alkan.


Hey, I know i'm terrible for idolizing them so much, but look on the bright side: At least I'm consistent. You'll never hear me verbally derail either of them all of a sudden. 

Plus, you forgot Sorabji


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## Praine (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm thinking Lyapunov, Tovey, (Haydn) Wood and (Alexander) Mackenzie. I like to be unpredictable.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

I am still awaiting Dim7's explanation as to why he thinks Sibelius is not a "dramatic" composer...


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

respighi produces great drama with his music.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I am still awaiting Dim7's explanation as to why he thinks Sibelius is not a "dramatic" composer...


Actually you're the one who made a positive statement "Sibelius is often very dramatic" which I denied, so the burden of proof is on you


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

But now that I think about it, his earier works like Kullervo, Finlandia, the first and to a lesser degree the second symphony are dramatic enough. I was mainly thinking about the symphonies 3-7 when I said that he is unusually undramatic for a late romantic composer.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> If you think about it, though, most classical music (unless it light parlor pieces or something like that) has SOME element of the dramatic. We can list composer after composer who had "dramatic" tendencies in their works. I think us classical nuts all must have a flair for the dramatic ourselves...that is why we embrace such dramatic music.


Baroque and Renaissance are probably less dramatic overall. The classical period introduced more dramatic conflict perhaps within movements.


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## Gangsta Tweety Bird (Jan 25, 2009)

i dont much care for drama queens


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Dim7 said:


> But now that I think about it, his earier works like Kullervo, Finlandia, the first and to a lesser degree the second symphony are dramatic enough. I was mainly thinking about the symphonies 3-7 when I said that he is unusually undramatic for a late romantic composer.


I think there is plenty of drama in the symphonies 3-7. Most certainly in the 5th and the 7th.

If by drama you mean there are quiet moments followed by loud moments followed by a cymbal crash followed by more quietness follows by another cymbal and more loudness, some Sibelius may disappoint. His drama is not always like that. Often, it is a slow build-up to the dramatic moments. I can think of no better example of this than in the 7th.

More of the "loud drama" I mentioned above exists in his earlier works, but as he matured, his music takes almost an impressionistic turn at points. There is still drama, however, but it is of the seething, slow build-up variety. If you come to Sibelius expecting Mahler, you won't get Mahler, and you may be let down.

One needs to accept Sibelius on his own terms, I think, to appreciate his sound. And what a dramatic sound it is!


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## nimmysnv (Oct 1, 2009)

Hi,

Mahler, Wagner are best in all of them.
Really all these stars have dramatic touch in their music like Indian instrumental tunes!!!!!!

Thanks.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

'Romantic' music got a bit too dramatic and over the top by the end of the 19th century, maybe that's why there was a reaction against it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd like to add some works that had their beginnings in being dramatic works originally, but became something else. Two I can think of are *Siblelius*' _Lemminkainen Suite _& *Prokofiev*'s _Symphony No. 3_. Both began life as operatic works. Doubtless there are some other examples of works like this, that mutated from opera to symphonic works. Even though they were reworked, the sense of drama, tension, and a certain epic quality remains. That's probably why I like _Lemminkainen _more than Sibelius' symphonies. As for Prokofiev, I haven't heard all of his symphonies yet, but the 3rd is my favourite of the ones I have heard so far.

I'd also like to add that some incidental music can also be very dramatic. Prime examples are *Beethoven's *_Egmont_, *Mendelssohn's* _A Midsummer Night's Dream _& of course, *Grieg's* _Peer Gynt_. *Rimsky Korsakov's *_Scheherazade _is similar, being based on the 1001 Nights.

There are also many dramatic pictures of places or events which composers have wrought. Some I can think of are *Dvorak's *_New World Symphony_, *Ippolitov-Ivanov's *_Caucasian Sketches_, *Ravel's* _Spanish Rhapsody_, *Debussy's* _Iberia_, *Hovhaness'* _Mysterious Mountain & Mount St. Helen's Symphonies_, *Vaughan Williams* _London or Antarctic Symphonies_ & Australian *Peter Sculthorpe's *_Sun Music _(about the Australian outback); the list can go on but my knowledge is somewhat limited compared to others. Generally, any music imaging a sense of place, whether natural or man-made, can be very dramatic...


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre said:


> I'd like to add some works that had their beginnings in being dramatic works originally, but became something else. Two I can think of are *Siblelius*' _Lemminkainen Suite _& *Prokofiev*'s _Symphony No. 3_. Both began life as operatic works. Doubtless there are some other examples of works like this, that mutated from opera to symphonic works. Even though they were reworked, the sense of drama, tension, and a certain epic quality remains. That's probably why I like _Lemminkainen _more than Sibelius' symphonies. As for Prokofiev, I haven't heard all of his symphonies yet, but the 3rd is my favourite of the ones I have heard so far.


You don't think Sibelius's 1st is an "epic" work? (Actually all of his symphonies are epic works, but perhaps the 1st is the most traditionally "epic," if we are talking "heart-on-you-sleeve dramatic.")


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes, Sibelius' _Symphonies Nos. 1 (& 2)_ are very dramatic, but for me, _Lemminkainen_ is more memorable and interesting. As you know, I'm not a big fan of his symphonies, but (as you point out) it's not due to their lack of drama, more because the way he repeats & develops themes is less engaging and stimulating than in _Lemminkainen_. What attracts me to the latter, is the way in which you can almost hear the process of composition virtually taking place right in front of you. But that's just my personal view, I suppose it doesn't negate your (valid) point.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Andre said:


> Yes, Sibelius' _Symphonies Nos. 1 (& 2)_ are very dramatic, but for me, _Lemminkainen_ is more memorable and interesting. As you know, I'm not a big fan of his symphonies, but (as you point out) it's not due to their lack of drama, more because the way he repeats & develops themes is less engaging and stimulating than in _Lemminkainen_. What attracts me to the latter, is the way in which you can almost hear the process of composition virtually taking place right in front of you. But that's just my personal view, I suppose it doesn't negate your (valid) point.


Thank you for your insight!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Sibelius' _King Christian II_ Suite is rather dramatic.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Lukecash12 said:


> Sibelius' _King Christian II_ Suite is rather dramatic.


Interesting, I would not characterize it as dramatic so much. It's a lighter score, and very evocative, but if by drama we mean some sort of gravitas, KCII is not one of Sibelius's more dramatic works.

At least I think not.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I think there is plenty of drama in the symphonies 3-7. Most certainly in the 5th and the 7th.
> 
> If by drama you mean there are quiet moments followed by loud moments followed by a cymbal crash followed by more quietness follows by another cymbal and more loudness, some Sibelius may disappoint. His drama is not always like that. Often, it is a slow build-up to the dramatic moments. I can think of no better example of this than in the 7th.
> 
> ...


To me drama in music is about sharp contrasts. It's not just from quiet to loud, but from slow to fast, consonant to dissonant, minor to major etc.. Modulations can also be used as a dramatic effect. I think surprises are dramatic, though if the music all the time completely unpredictable then I wouldn't call that dramatic anymore, it sort of loses its effect. I think slow, soft changes are almost the opposite of "drama."


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## nimmysnv (Oct 1, 2009)

Hi,

Mahler is dramatic sometimes now days but the real comparison between Mahler and Wagner!!!!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Janacek is a very, very dramatic composer, so he warrants a mentioning.


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## Wagner (Oct 29, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Wagner, Mahler, Wagner, Mahler, Wagner, Mahler....


Wagner, Wagner, Wagner, Wagner, Wagner, Wagner


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## Wagner (Oct 29, 2009)

Wagner is dramatic in the truest sense of the word. He writes drama - music dramas - whereas Mahler wrote absolute music. Symphonies - there were no dramatic implications or programmatic elements to Mahler's conception. 

Of course his music is moving and powerful, but not quite dramatic in the same way the Wagner is.


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## Wagner (Oct 29, 2009)

Of course, another dramatic composer - not quite a rival to Wagner, but certainly not too far off, is Richard Strauss. Much of his music was conceived as drama - and he has a less organic more ..well.. dramatic, I suppose.. approach to composition than Mahler.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Wagner said:


> Of course, another dramatic composer - not quite a rival to Wagner, but certainly not too far off, is Richard Strauss. Much of his music was conceived as drama - and he has a less organic more ..well.. dramatic, I suppose.. approach to composition than Mahler.


And what of Chausson, Mosolov, Feinberg, Verdi?


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## Wagner (Oct 29, 2009)

Yes, they can also be included as directly dramatic composers, definitely.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Wagner said:


> Wagner is dramatic in the truest sense of the word. He writes drama - music dramas - whereas Mahler wrote absolute music. Symphonies - there were no dramatic implications or programmatic elements to Mahler's conception.


I see your point, but I don't think it's that cut and dry with Mahler.

His 1st symphony, The Titan, has a loose program about some sort of hero. Symphony no. 2 is about this hero's death and resurrection. The 4th symphony's final movement has spoken poetry in it about a child who has died and gone to heaven. The 8th depicts a scene from Faust. Long story short, Mahler's music may not be as explicitly programmatic as Wagner's operas, but they are not exclusively "absolute," either.

Just food for thought.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'd count basically any composer who has made a symphonic tone poem as rather dramatic. Griffes, Chausson (as I mentioned before), Scriabin, Bartok, Mussorgsky.


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## tahnak (Jan 19, 2009)

I wonder which composer's names you consider as synonims of dramaticism?

Wagner?







[/QUOTE]

GUSTAV MAHLER


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

tahnak said:


> I wonder which composer's names you consider as synonims of dramaticism?
> 
> Wagner?


GUSTAV MAHLER[/QUOTE]

Why exactly is it that the German symphonic music is the most popular in European countries?


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## noestoycierto (Oct 30, 2009)

Wagner. No doubt. Why are we still discussing this?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

noestoycierto said:


> Why are we still discussing this?


Are you serious?


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