# Haydn survey -- symphony by symphony?



## KenOC

Hurwitz has undertaken, it seems, a rather vast effort of commenting on all of Haydn's symphonies, one by one. Check your watches and life expectancies! Here's number one.


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## Merl

He'll be dead (or gibbering) before he gets to the end. Anyway it's already been done. He's just nicking ideas now.

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/


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## annaw

Merl said:


> He'll be dead (or gibbering) before he gets to the end. Anyway it's already been done. He's just nicking ideas now.
> 
> https://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/


Ahh, I love that article. Read it first time when I was *considering* listening to all the symphonies just brutally in a row. Seemed like a bit too torturous endeavor, though.


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## Ulfilas

I'm up to 60, but not in numerical order. Goes nicely with coffee after breakfast.


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## elgar's ghost

Hurwitz is a lightweight - if he had any cajones he would tackle the baryton trios instead. :lol:


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## CnC Bartok

elgars ghost said:


> Hurwitz is a lightweight - if he had any cajones he would tackle the baryton trios instead. :lol:


....or the Vivaldi Concertos. With videos and/or reviews, does anyone know the equivalent of CTRL C then CTRL V?


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## Eclectic Al

annaw said:


> Ahh, I love that article. Read it first time when I was *considering* listening to all the symphonies just brutally in a row. Seemed like a bit too torturous endeavor, though.


I did it. (In the order specified by the ClassicFM article.)
When finished I struggled to listen to anything else for a while, so I moved on to his Piano Sonatas. Never got bored.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Merl said:


> He'll be dead (or gibbering) before he gets to the end. Anyway it's already been done. He's just nicking ideas now.
> 
> https://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/


Admirable effort but terrible outcome. I know it's a personal choice but there are so many strange rankings and opinions. Just look at his piece on No.94, which he's ranked 66th, as in Haydn wrote 65 symphonies better than it.

_



66. Symphony No. 94 ('Surprise')
That super-loud chord in the second movement! SURPRISE! Except it's not surprising because literally everyone knows it's coming. It's still an enjoyable symphony, but mostly because the Germans call it 'mit der Paukenschlag' ('with the kettledrum stroke').

Click to expand...

_


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## annaw

Eclectic Al said:


> I did it. (In the order specified by the ClassicFM article.)
> When finished I struggled to listen to anything else for a while, so I moved on to his Piano Sonatas. Never got bored.


Hmm, maybe I should give it a go but this time without trying to listen to them all in a relatively short time period! My main problem tends to be Classical period itself, not Haydn particularly. I love his string quartets but struggle with Classical orchestral music.

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet, I think it's not meant to be taken very seriously . I have no idea how anyone could rank over 100 symphonies in a reasonable manner anyway - that's why tiers are more useful. It's just a fun read.


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## Merl

I played this baby, last week, for the first time in a while. Its an excellent performance and is sadly neglected / unheard. Hopefully this will change some time. I enjoyed my last play so much that I played it again today.


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## Heck148

This is related to the OP - I good friend of mine....musicology major, who is quite a good conductor - he literally knows EVERY Haydn symphony!! Did his PhD on them, IIRC...
He can instantly, identify any Haydn symphony by key, number, thematic material, instrumentation - 

As in Fred - "do you know Haydn Sym XX"
F: "Oh yeah, that's the Bb Major" then sings main theme from each mvt!!


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ I think I might be able to do that main themes bit (well hum, emphatically not sing!), with Beethoven, Mahler, Sibelius and a couple of others, but Haydn? Different league, and either highly impressive or ever so slightly questionable....


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## Heck148

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ I think I might be able to do that main themes bit (well hum, emphatically not sing!), with Beethoven, Mahler, Sibelius and a couple of others, but Haydn? Different league, and either highly impressive or ever so slightly questionable....


Yes, I can do that quite readily with the composers you cite....9 symphonies or so...but Haydn symphonies?? Yes, it is impressive, but also very "nerdy"(??) lol!!


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## CnC Bartok

Heck148 said:


> Yes, I can do that quite readily with the composers you cite....9 symphonies or so...but Haydn symphonies?? Yes, it is impressive, but also very "nerdy"(??) lol!!


He's your friend, I wouldn't dare comment!!!:lol:


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## perdido34

Hurwitz is doing something different than the classicalfm article, in that he's not just talking about what parts he likes. He's alsoi talking about the structure of each piece and what makes it stand out. IMO that's useful information to inform listening, and not just someone's emotional response to the music.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

CnC Bartok said:


> ....or the Vivaldi Concertos. With videos and/or reviews, does anyone know the equivalent of CTRL C then CTRL V?


"CTRL C and CTRL V" pretty much sums up most Vivaldi concertos for me


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## Eclectic Al

annaw said:


> Hmm, maybe I should give it a go but this time without trying to listen to them all in a relatively short time period! My main problem tends to be Classical period itself, not Haydn particularly. I love his string quartets but struggle with Classical orchestral music.


On your point about classical orchestral music, I struggle with Mozart, and (after seeing so many posts from the esteemed HammeredKlavier explaining why Mozart is so great), I think I have decided that with Haydn symphonies it's about the orchestration. There's always some interest - some spice. Maybe it's correct that if you analyse the notes then Mozart's efforts are technically superior (I wouldn't know), but Haydn tickles my ear. Not all notes are the same - it depends a bit on the instrument employed. Perhaps Haydn can be cheesy - but it's a tremendous bit of stilton.


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## Heck148

CnC Bartok said:


> He's your friend, I wouldn't dare comment!!!:lol:


It's ok!! I tease him about it!! He lol!!


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## annaw

Eclectic Al said:


> On your point about classical orchestral music, I struggle with Mozart, and (after seeing so many posts from the esteemed HammeredKlavier explaining why Mozart is so great), I think I have decided that with Haydn symphonies it's about the orchestration. There's always some interest - some spice. Maybe it's correct that if you analyse the notes then Mozart's efforts are technically superior (I wouldn't know), but Haydn tickles my ear. Not all notes are the same - it depends a bit on the instrument employed. *Perhaps Haydn can be cheesy - but it's a tremendous bit of stilton.*


I like that comparison. In fact, when it comes to Classical composers, I also tend to prefer Haydn over Mozart. I feel he was a slightly more dramatic composer, maybe because he was a bit more influenced (even if unknowingly) by Sturm und Drang period. I will listen to his London symphonies some time soon - I feel somewhat nostalgic about them because I remember listening to them when I had just discovered classical music.


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## CnC Bartok

Heck148 said:


> It's ok!! I tease him about it!! He lol!!


It's what friends are for.


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## CnC Bartok

Duplicate vote, oops, I mean post.


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## Judas Priest Fan

I have listened to all 104 of Haydn´s Symphonies. They are relatively short,and fit nicely in my lunch break 

I enjoyed them all, and will probably re-listen someday


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## Georgegreece

I discovered the Haydn 2032 series from Alpha records. Each cd is "dedicated" to a specific mood. I think there are 8 volumes right now.






















Moreover, you can read the booklets on Idagio or Primephonic which are full of analysis and amazing photos. 
I have already fallen in love with the cds. I play them all the time, when i prepare my breakfast or coffee, in my car ,as a background music while reading or working etc.

This is the booklet's prologue


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## perdido34

Antonini's performances are really enjoyable. I also like the Dantone performances on Decca.


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## MrMeatScience

Georgegreece said:


> I discovered the Haydn 2032 series from Alpha records. Each cd is "dedicated" to a specific mood. I think there are 8 volumes right now.
> 
> Moreover, you can read the booklets on Idagio or Primephonic which are full of analysis and amazing photos.
> I have already fallen in love with the cds. I play them all the time, when i prepare my breakfast or coffee, in my car ,as a background music while reading or working etc.


This is my absolute favorite Haydn cycle, by a country mile. There's so much raw energy in Antonini's performances. They just released a recording of Die Schöpfung but I haven't gotten around to listening through yet.


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## JAS

elgars ghost said:


> Hurwitz is a lightweight - if he had any cajones he would tackle the baryton trios instead. :lol:


I don't know if Hurwitz would particularly appreciate being dismissed as a lightweight, but in the video of an interview that he did, which I posted in another Hurwitz thread, he does pretty much admit that he considers himself an entertainer first (and presumably a provider of information second).

I do wish that he had worked into his presentation a comparison of available recordings for each symphony, particularly for the early ones, where there aren't an impossibly huge number of alternatives.

I have two complete cycles, and one that never got finished. I enjoy the Haydn symphonies a great deal, but I generally don't attempt to listen to a lot of them back to back.


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## pianozach

KenOC said:


> Hurwitz has undertaken, it seems, a rather vast effort of commenting on all of Haydn's symphonies, one by one. Check your watches and life expectancies! Here's number one.


Dear Lawd, it takes him forever to make any point.

It's a whole lot easier (and won't take nearly as long) to go with ClassicFMs "We made this guy listen to all 104 Haydn symphonies and put them in order of greatness".

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/

Yeah, they stuck with the 104 Symphonies, and didn't add the extra three, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

_SPOILER ALERT!_

The bottom of the list goes to Symphony No. 4,

and the *Top 5* are

5. Symphony No. 88
4. Symphony No. 26 ('Lamentatione')
3. Symphony No. 6 ('Le matin')
2. Symphony No. 44 ('Trauer')
1. Symphony No. 49 ('La Passione')


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## CnC Bartok

pianozach said:


> Dear Lawd, it takes him forever to make any point.
> 
> It's a whole lot easier (and won't take nearly as long) to go with ClassicFMs "We made this guy listen to all 104 Haydn symphonies and put them in order of greatness".
> 
> https://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/
> 
> Yeah, they stuck with the 104 Symphonies, and didn't add the extra three, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice.
> 
> _SPOILER ALERT!_
> 
> The bottom of the list goes to Symphony No. 4,
> 
> and the *Top 5* are
> 
> 5. Symphony No. 88
> 4. Symphony No. 26 ('Lamentatione')
> 3. Symphony No. 6 ('Le matin')
> 2. Symphony No. 44 ('Trauer')
> 1. Symphony No. 49 ('La Passione')


I still reckon that Classic FM (FM stands for "F*** Me, this is bland") survey was randomly generated, certainly some of the comments on each work seem to be!

That said, to see what is eccentrically but honestly my favourite of all the Haydn symphonies come in 4th place out of 104 did force me to lend it a modicum of credibility.......


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## Animal the Drummer

As someone who went to the other place, I reckon that symphony and the "Oxford" would make an excellent coupling....


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## CnC Bartok

Animal the Drummer said:


> As someone who went to the other place, I reckon that symphony and the "Oxford" would make an excellent coupling....


I will treat that comment with the utter disdain it deserves. :lol:

Just as an interesting, albeit irrelevant aside, I have a small - inch square - piece of Dvorak's doctorate gown from cambridge in my possession.....


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## MrMeatScience

CnC Bartok said:


> I will treat that comment with the utter disdain it deserves. :lol:
> 
> Just as an interesting, albeit irrelevant aside, I have a small - inch square - piece of Dvorak's doctorate gown from cambridge in my possession.....


How on earth did you end up with that? That's a great souvenir!

I also think 26 is one of the better Haydn symphonies, unjustly ignored I suppose as a result of not being part of the London symphonies (when you've got 104 symphonies to your name, a few are bound to slip through the cracks!). The recent recording in Antonini's cycle is masterful and in great sound. In any case, I've got your back if Animal tries to start anything.


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## CnC Bartok

....a friend was responsible for restoring it a few years back. A couple of bits needed replacing, they snipped a little bit off just for me, knowing I was a fan!

And thanks for having my back, but don't forget he's got Burgess, Maclean, Philby AND Blunt on his.....

The Lamentations comes off very variably in the recordings I have. I rarely say this, but Dorati is pretty dull and ploddy in it, and Marzendorfer is honestly quite close to awful. But it seems to come off wonderfully if given the wound-up motor treatment in the first movement , Pinnock is superb, as is Kuijken. Somewhere in between is Nicholas Ward on Naxos, not quite as adrenalin OD'd, but very powerful. Those are the three is tend to listen to the most (I have Kuijken's in the car...)

I'll definitely look into Antonini as well....


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## Merl

Another thumbs up for the Antonini from me too. Nice recording and like you, CnC, I like Ward's recording a lot too. It's a nice, lively Lamentatione. Far better than aome others I have.


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## CnC Bartok

Got a couple of the Antonini recordings through the post yesterday, and I think these are going to get my thumbs up as well. I have to confess the Lamentations Symphony was not what I was expecting, different from other esteemed recordings I have, and maybe a bit opaque in terms of rhythm in the first movement, but particularly beautiful in the two following movements.

I have to commend Alpha on their programming of individual CDs, on the recording quality, and on their presentation. Quite why I need a picture of some chap half naked in the rain for this particular CD is anyone's guess, but the photos and the booklets are beautiful, and they make each release treasurable. But I think this is going to cost me a lot of money between now and 2032......oh well, can't take it with you.....


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## MusicInTheAir

I thought the ClassicFM article was ridiculous (apparently the writer agreed). Attempting to rank over 100 symphonies in a short space of time is idiotic. But really, how can anyone truly rank them no matter how much time they had? I could've stopped reading after finding the Symphonies nos. 48, 52 & 83 as low in his opinion as they are. But that really isn't the point. You can't rank symphonies by any of the greater composers. Would anyone wish to rank Beethoven's symphonies? Music by many of these composers has to be placed in the context of when they were written. And as far Dave Hurwitz is concerned. He obviously loves Haydn. He's pointed out, at least to me, some interesting things about the lower number symphonies which show them to be less ordinary than one might think.


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## pianozach

MusicInTheAir said:


> I thought the ClassicFM article was ridiculous (apparently the writer agreed). Attempting to rank over 100 symphonies in a short space of time is idiotic. But really, how can anyone truly rank them no matter how much time they had? I could've stopped reading after finding the Symphonies nos. 48, 52 & 83 as low in his opinion as they are. But that really isn't the point. You can't rank symphonies by any of the greater composers. *Would anyone wish to rank Beethoven's symphonies? *Music by many of these composers has to be placed in the context of when they were written. And as far Dave Hurwitz is concerned. He obviously loves Haydn. He's pointed out, at least to me, some interesting things about the lower number symphonies which show them to be less ordinary than one might think.


I think we have here. Yes.

Favorite Beethoven Symphony

We've done the same with Bruckner's Symphonies: https://www.talkclassical.com/48758...nies.html?highlight=beethoven+symphonies+rank

It just gives us all an opportunity to discuss their merits, complexity, groundbreaking ideas, and even hum-mableness.


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## BoggyB

Heck148 said:


> This is related to the OP - I good friend of mine....musicology major, who is quite a good conductor - he literally knows EVERY Haydn symphony!! Did his PhD on them, IIRC...
> He can instantly, identify any Haydn symphony by key, number, thematic material, instrumentation -
> 
> As in Fred - "do you know Haydn Sym XX"
> F: "Oh yeah, that's the Bb Major" then sings main theme from each mvt!!


I applaud that man!



CnC Bartok said:


> I still reckon that Classic FM (FM stands for "F*** Me, this is bland") survey was randomly generated, certainly some of the comments on each work seem to be!
> 
> That said, to see what is eccentrically but honestly my favourite of all the Haydn symphonies come in 4th place out of 104 did force me to lend it a modicum of credibility.......


Yes, it seemed almost random at times, and I remember thinking "where did that come from?" when the overall winner emerged.

Public opinion seems to me to favour the last 12 (London) symphonies. One thing I learnt recently is that no. 89 is (partly) copied from a lira concerto. And if I haven't said it before, I think the adagio from no. 34 is a remarkable movement that's largely under the radar.


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## Judas Priest Fan

I listened to all 104 symphonies when I got into classical music a few years ago, and enjoyed them all.

I am now re listening to them again, and am enjoying them even more


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## hammeredklavier

annaw said:


> I like that comparison. In fact, when it comes to Classical composers, I also tend to prefer Haydn over Mozart. *I feel he was a slightly more dramatic composer*, maybe because he was a bit more influenced (even if unknowingly) by Sturm und Drang period.


You're kidding me, right? LOL, between Mozart, Michael Haydn, Joseph Haydn, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach - Joseph is by far the "tamest". 
post1937404
post2004496
post1968180
post1969282
post1969864
post1992655
post1977236
post1973473
post1977379
post1995000
post1977265

His sturm und drang just pales in comparison to Mozart's. Heck, even Michael blows his older brother out of the water with the Dies irae of his requiem. 






hammeredklavier said:


> "What then is "Romantic"? How far back should its beginnings, in music, be pushed? To 1793, when a review of a new work by "Citizen Méhul" described him as a Romantic? Or further - to year 1780-81, the year of Mozart's Idomeneo, a work whose use of orchestral colour for structural and psychological purposes anticipates nineteenth-century Romantic opera?" <Berlioz: The Making of an Artist 1803-1832 , By David Cairns , P. 193>





hammeredklavier said:


> "Look at Idomeneo. Not only is it a marvel, but as Mozart was still quite young and brash when he wrote it, it was a completely new thing. What marvelous dissonance! What harmony!" -Brahms, 1896
> [ 26:00 ~ 32:30 ] "Tutte nel cor vi sento"
> [ 1:23:30 ~ 1:28:30 ] "Qual nuovo terrore"
> [ 2:01:00 ~ 2:06:00 ] "O voto tremendo"
> 7:05 , 11:15 , 15:35





hammeredklavier said:


> I think the slow movement of the 80th symphony (probably my favorite Haydn symphony slow movement) is also decent. To me, like the 1st cello concerto, it evokes a feeling of nostalgia for the Classical period in a different way from that of Mozart's 34th, for example. I used to be impressed by the sustained note in the brass in the development of the 78th symphony 1st movement. That "bam~~~~~" the brass does while the strings do their own stuff. It thought it was dramatic in effect, in a way distinctive and unique from the styles of other Classicists. But then I became somewhat less enthusiastic about it when I learned that it's actually not Haydn's orignal orchestration, but H. C. Robbins Landon's reorchestration of the Haydn work.
> 
> 
> 
> Likewise, the Svanisce in un momento from Il ritorno di Tobia, and Sonata V and the Earthquake finale from the Seven Last Words of Christ also strike me as somewhat dramatic. But generally, there's something about Joseph's sense of drama that puts me off a little. The fast movements of the "sturm-und-drang-in-a-teapot" 44th and 49th for example, strikes me as rather "annoyingly whiny" rather than "dramatic".
> Perhaps I would have regarded him more highly if he could write like these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (11:20 ~ 13:39)


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