# Beethoven's op.130: Original or Alternative Finale?



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

As we know, the movement initially written as the finale of the sprawling op.130 B-flat major string quartet is known today as the Große Fuge, and is typically played as a separate work. I believe the story goes that Beethoven's publisher attempted (in the end, successfully) to convince him that the public would not understand such a massive, fugal finale, and that an alternative finale should be written for the quartet. Nowadays, the quartet is almost always performed with the resulting alternate finale, written significantly later on. 

Do you think Beethoven was right to rewrite the finale here? Or do you prefer the Große Fuge as a finale? Personally, I am a fan of the alternative final movement, but I must disclaim that the quartet is mystifying enough to me as it is, without the Große Fuge on the end. Maybe Beethoven should have never second guessed himself. 

This brings up further questioning, though: are both variants of the quartet valid? Does one tell a different story, impart a different experience, from the other...? Or do you, the listener, feel that only one or the other version really speaks to you? 

Very curious on everyone's thoughts here. This is a poll thread, but I would like to see some discussion as well.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

The Große Fuge is such a wonderfully overpowering work that I think it works better as an individual work.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

To me, it doesn’t matter much. I agree with Kerman, who found the Op. 130 to be a very dissociated work without much unity or overall design (in contrast with the Op. 131). So with the Fugue as the finale, it’s one beast; with the replacement finale, it’s another – or at least we can hear it that way and convince ourselves that it’s true.

BTW I’ve been under the impression that most live performances use the Grosse Fuge as the finale. I mean, what quartet doesn’t want to strut its stuff?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I like the agitation and the capriciousness of Grosse Fuge. It may not be the best fugue ever written, but it's arguably the best parody on the fugue form. The alternative finale is also good, I like Grosse Fuge a bit better.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

KenOC said:


> To me, it doesn't matter much. I agree with Kerman, who found the Op. 130 to be a very dissociated work without much unity or overall design (in contrast with the Op. 131). So with the Fugue as the finale, it's one beast; with the replacement finale, it's another - or at least we can hear it that way and convince ourselves that it's true.
> 
> BTW I've been under the impression that most live performances use the Grosse Fuge as the finale. I mean, what quartet doesn't want to strut its stuff?


Never thought of it that way, but you've got a point!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> To me, it doesn't matter much. I agree with Kerman, who found the Op. 130 to be a very dissociated work without much unity or overall design (in contrast with the Op. 131). So with the Fugue as the finale, it's one beast; with the replacement finale, it's another - or at least we can hear it that way and convince ourselves that it's true.
> 
> BTW I've been under the impression that most live performances use the Grosse Fuge as the finale. I mean, what quartet doesn't want to strut its stuff?


I understand where you and Kerman are coming from, but I'm not sure I agree. I hear a satisfying overall pattern in the replacement version, specifically, a systematically organized dialogue of dance and song. In movements two through six, the even numbered movements evoke dances, while in the odd ones a lyrical, quasi-vocal style prevails. The pattern is set up by the thematic opposition in the first movement, which begins with a sort of halting recitative style theme but is soon countered by a brighter, highly rhythmic idea - not quite song versus dance, but nevertheless an apt setup for the dialogue to come. The movement seems to be about first contrasting and then integrating these two modes of being.

Anyway, it works for me and reinforces one of the things I like most about Beethoven: his willingness to experiment with different forms of organization, sometimes inventing entirely new approaches for individual works, as I think he did for Op. 130.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

I think the fugue overpowers the rest of the quartet, so B. I don't really think that late in Beethoven's career he would have changed the 6th movement of 130 for anything but artistic reasons.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I knew the members of a young professional quartet for most of their existence (15 years) and towards the end one asked me for a recommendation for a shortish festive piece to play for an occasion and I suggested the alternative Op 130 finale. I was floored when he said they didn't know it "We've never played it." All well and good to always play the fugue, but for a professional quartet to never have even run through a complete late quartet movement by Beethoven surprised the hell out of me!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2019)

I like the quartet with the replacement finale. The Grosse fugue is a work of genius that stands on its own.

I've never heard the work live, and in the great majority of recordings both movements are included and you can choose to listen to it however you wish. There are a few Beethoven cycles where the quartet has failed to record the replacement finale at all, which I find inexcusable. (For instance, the Artemis Quartet cycle.) It was a movement for string quartet written at the height of Beethoven's late period and is worth hearing, whether or not you think the grosse fuge is a better finale for the quartet.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

For me - and I stress that this is only a personal opinion - the _Große Fuge_ at the end of the quartet is essential. Hearing the piece without the massive final movement would be for me like hearing the great B-flat major _Hammerklavier_ sonata without the concluding fugue. However, the replacement movement is a stunning work, worthy of the careful attention of every serious music lover. So at the end of the day, I'm happy with both versions. I definitely expect quartets to record both finales in their traversals.

One famous case where Beethoven was recommended to replace a movement is the middle movement of the C major _Waldstein_ piano sonata. I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that the original _Andante favori_ should be preferred over the middle movement we are used to hearing, which is one of the most magical creations of Beethoven - especially the way it leads into the final movement. Where does one draw the line? I vastly prefer hearing the quartet with the big finale but would never wish to hear the C major sonata in its original form, though I like the _Andante favori_ as it is, a beautiful little piece.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I agree with those who say the Grosse fuge overpowers the rest of the quartet so I prefer the replacement.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

The poll is neck and neck. I will have to listen again to this quartet, this time with the fugal finale, and see what I think. These are all interesting thoughts. It could very well be that the quartet with the Große Fuge as a finale is equal to or better than the final form.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I find the Große Fuge over-powering to the rest of the SQ and believe that it’s much more effective being played separately. But I also believe it’s in the spirit of the string quartet with his exuberance and joy. It took me a while to understand it but I finally concluded that Beethoven’s Fuge is a great outburst of exuberance and celebration. He’s ecstatic and happy. But the problem is that I don’t think it’s always played that way. I’ve heard performances where the GF is hacked to death and roughly played. When it’s played that way I feel it sounds horrible. It needs to be played forcefully but with some sense of finesse. To me, this sounds like Beethoven in a very special dimension but one that is not without gratitude.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I also feel like the _Große Fuge_ has something of the contrast in it that I find so essential in Beethoven's art. I'm just listening to the quartet inspired this thread (Quartetto Italiano) and the opening of the last movement after the _cavatina_ is simply earth-shattering...

With the two different finales the quartet is bascially two different pieces. The difference in the effect between the movements is so huge!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

These contrasts that you think are an essential part of Beethoven, where else do you find them? 

You say that the transition from the cavatina to the fugue is "earth shattering", but I think it runs the risk of being a absurd and pointless jolt -- unless there's a way for the musicians to prepare the ground. In the 9th symphony, he takes a lot of trouble to prepare the ground before the choral music, here we seem to be just thrown in.


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> These contrasts that you think are an essential part of Beethoven, where else do you find them?
> 
> You say that the transition from the cavatina to the fugue is "earth shattering", but I think it runs the risk of being a absurd and pointless jolt -- unless there's a way for the musicians to prepare the ground.


Where do you _not_ find them? For me, the _Große Fuge_ as the finale of Op. 130 is no more contrasting than many other moments in the late quartets and sonatas. I've always felt like the sublime _cavatina_, one of the strongest movements of Beethoven in my opinion, needs an equally strong counterpart to finish off the work. It feels totally convincing to me - this might of course be the case because I've heard the work in the original version most often. An absurd and pointless jolt? A possible interpretation of course. I fully disagree.

I'd like to emphasize even still that I'm a huge fan of the replacement finale as well. I just think it doesn't give the work as satisfying an ending as does the fugue.

I might be putting my hand on a beehive here, but I can't help but wonder if most listeners who comment that the big fugue is not a fitting finale would think the same had they always heard it that way. I'm totally ready to admit, though, that most quartets seem to prefer to play the GF separately as well. So what do I know?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I like both/either. But you need a less than overstated Grosse Fugue to work with it as the last movement. With the GF as a standalone a string quartet can really pull out all the stops.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Janspe said:


> Where do you _not_ find them? For me, the _Große Fuge_ as the finale of Op. 130 is no more contrasting than many other moments in the late quartets and sonatas. I've always felt like the sublime _cavatina_, one of the strongest movements of Beethoven in my opinion, needs an equally strong counterpart to finish off the work. It feels totally convincing to me - this might of course be the case because I've heard the work in the original version most often. An absurd and pointless jolt? A possible interpretation of course. I fully disagree.
> 
> I'd like to emphasize even still that I'm a huge fan of the replacement finale as well. I just think it doesn't give the work as satisfying an ending as does the fugue.
> 
> I might be putting my hand on a beehive here, but I can't help but wonder if most listeners who comment that the big fugue is not a fitting finale would think the same had they always heard it that way. I'm totally ready to admit, though, that most quartets seem to prefer to play the GF separately as well. So what do I know?





Enthusiast said:


> . . . to work with it. . .


How do you _feel_ the fugue? Or rather, what feeling do you think it should be given in performance? Angry, grumpy, tough? That's what I get from pretty well every performance I've heard I think.

I'm just wondering if there's an overarching structure of affects in the quartet, that each movement was supposed to express something and that the emotional plan isn't random.

I don't know about c19 style enough to know whether this is a valid way of approaching the music. It's the sort of thing you might do for a cycle of Italian madrigals, but for a thing by Beethoven? I'm not sure.

Anyway, he must have had some thoughts about what the music was supposed to express when he composed it all, I suppose. I wonder if he made any comments about this sort of thing in the notebooks.



Janspe said:


> Hearing the piece without the massive final movement would be for me like hearing the great B-flat major _Hammerklavier_ sonata without the concluding fugue.


Same issues there . . . it's so very difficult to go beyond the expression of a personal preference. But it should be possible, these things were presented as wholes, it would be surprising if they were just a hotch potch.



Eva Yojimbo said:


> . . . overpowers . . .


Can you spell that out a bit for me? The more I think about it the less I feel I understand what you're getting at.



Janspe said:


> With the two different finales the quartet is bascially two different pieces. The difference in the effect between the movements is so huge!


This may be related to Eva's concept of overpowering, because you seem to want to say that the fugue has a retro-effect -- it changes the listener's perception of the previous movements and of the meaning of the whole. It could be right, I'm not sure.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

This is exactly the sort of riveting discussion I was hoping to incite by opening this thread. Unfortunately, I am not well versed enough in late Beethoven to speak intelligently on this quartet one way or the other. In any case I will have to listen to it again with the Große Fuge finale ASAP. I usually listen to the GF as a separate piece.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Mandryka said:


> This may be related to Eva's concept of overpowering, because you seem to want to say that the fugue has a retro-effect -- it changes the listener's perception of the previous movements and of the meaning of the whole. It could be right, I'm not sure.


I remember reading in some program notes one quartet's statement that they would actually _play _the preceding movements differently depending on which finale was being used.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

KenOC said:


> I remember reading in some program notes one quartet's statement that they would actually _play _the preceding movements differently depending on which finale was being used.


I'd be curious to know what adjustments would be made, any idea?


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> I'd be curious to know what adjustments would be made, any idea?


I vaguely remember the same program note. I think the issue was playing the end of the cavatina so that it dove-tailed well with the start of the next movement, Fuge or replacement finale. They might even have recorded a version of the cavatina for each circumstance. Can't remember what ensemble it was or where I read it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I don't remember which quartet it was, but the reference was clearly to the entire work preceding the final movement, not just to the transition from the Cavatina (which is nicely managed by Beethoven in both finales). I do remember that the statement made my BS detector tingle, just a little.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

It was the Tokyo Quartet in the essay for their first recording. I think.


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> It was the Tokyo Quartet in the essay for their first recording. I think.


Where would we all have seen that? (I have the first Tokyo recording, but in a cheap re-issue which has no booklet.) I have a vague feeling it was in some review or press material for a new recording of the quartets.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here it is



> A century after the late quartets entered the repertory, they are still shrouded in mystery and awe (as are the late piano sonatas-witness the discussion of Op.111 in Thomas Mann's Doktor Faustus). During our conversation, Peter Oundjian sometimes referred to them as "a kind of bible, about which your feelings are always strong, but your interpretations are always changing. You can spend a lot of time in recording sessions playing very badly because you're struggling to make a certain transition. You get so disappointed if you don't get it ideally, just the way you want it. And then a year or two later you see it quite differently." For performers, there is mystery enough in technical matters. Op.130 has created the greatest debate; for it has two final movements.
> 
> The Great Fugue, Op.133, was originally written as the sixth and final movement of Op.130. It is a huge piece, as long as any movement in the quar-tets, and almost twice as long as the first movement of Op.130. Its beginning, marked "Overtura," presents an angular chromatic theme; what follows is a set of fugal workings-out of that theme. The fugal sections are in several keys and tempos; the theme is inverted, distorted, and accompanied in myriad ways in the 741 measures of the piece. Beethoven's publisher urged him to exchange the movement for a simpler one; though he had vowed never to replace the Fugue, the composer finally did supply the more modest Rondo, half as long as the Fugue and lacking its shocking dissonances, strange textures, brash ges-tures, and rhetorical sweep.
> 
> ...


"When we're playing it with the Fugue, there's almost a sense of anticipation in these divertimento movements, and the Cavatina shines like a jewel-something perfect and quite simple, but opening the door for the huge statement to be made at the end. What comes before, the middle movements, isn't as profound, but they too are leading up to the finale. When you play the Rondo, you have to make more of the middle movements."


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I tend to prefer the alternative finale although I feel I should give a listen to the quartet with Grosse Fuge instead of the alternative ending. I agree with the earlier comments that Grosse Fuge might overpower the rest of the quartet. It’s already significantly longer than any other movement and as it feels to consist of smaller movements itself then I think it works pretty well as an independent piece.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Can you spell that out a bit for me? The more I think about it the less I feel I understand what you're getting at.


The Grosse fuge is one of the most radical works ever composed, and not just for its time as it still sounds modern today (as Stravinsky said it would). It's the only classical work I ever played as a youngster that caused my mother to burst into my room in exasperation and ask what the hell that noise was. This is all a way of saying that the movement makes an impact that consumes all the listener's attention and reaction. If you put it at the end of that quartet it's a bit like traveling along a gorgeous countryside full of beautiful and interesting sights, but up ahead there's a 100-foot tall colossus beast that's waiting to step on your vehicle. Sure, you can enjoy the views along the way, but you know you're about to be in for a cataclysmic finale that's going to make the whole experience quite different. The replacement finale doesn't have this effect and I actually think it helps to bring balance to the piece that vacillates between light, happy, playfulness and reflective, somber, even melancholic tones. The fuge after the cavatina is like an apocalypse after a depression; it's too much, and together they lay waste to any joy found in the previous movements. The allegro, however, restores equilibrium, helping to balance out the tones and moods of the piece.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes, we come back to a question I posed earlier, the correct affect of the fugue. I don’t think it’s inevitably ferocious - the Fitzwilliam Quartet, for example, seem to play it in a more poised way. 

And if it is taken ferociously, can the ground be prepared? 

I’ll just mention that I can’t hear anything modern about the music, it doesn’t sound any more modern than Bach’s Wedge Fugue.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

Janspe said:


> Where do you _not_ find them? For me, the _Große Fuge_ as the finale of Op. 130 is no more contrasting than many other moments in the late quartets and sonatas. I've always felt like the sublime _cavatina_, one of the strongest movements of Beethoven in my opinion, needs an equally strong counterpart to finish off the work.
> 
> I'd like to emphasize even still that I'm a huge fan of the replacement finale as well. I just think it doesn't give the work as satisfying an ending as does the fugue.


I just revisited Opus 130, without Grosse Fuge. And I'm still no fan of the alternate finale. I agree with you that the Cavatina needs to be followed up with something "strong." For me, the alternate finale is too light and frisky and feels incongruous, like it's more Haydn-esque than Late Beethoven. I wish Lvb had simply ended it on the Cavatina, rather than cooking up a new ending. If he wanted to separate the GF that's cool but then he could've just left Op. 130 with 5 mvts. (with an option to add the GF back in for those intrepid enough to do so )

BTW, I was listening to Robert Greenberg's lecture on the quartet and he mentioned the influence of JS Bach's Chaconne from Partita #2 and how both works have an ending that is an overwhelming culmination of what came before. I can see a conceptual similarity. But has anyone noticed musical similarities, like in motifs or phrases? Bach's is not a fugue, but theme & variations. Still, are there bits that Beethoven clearly emulates in the GF?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The alternative finale is a great ending-- to an entirely-different quartet that I wish Beethoven had composed!


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

ORigel said:


> The alternative finale is a great ending-- to an entirely-different quartet that I wish Beethoven had composed!


Yeah, perhaps if he'd done a 7th opus 18 quartet then I could see that finale finding a more appropriate place.

Btw, I like how Takacs Quartet lists the GF _before_ the alternate finale on their CD. Don't know many (if any) quartets that do that. Though I think Artemis went a step further and cut out the alternate altogether! What balls!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

GrosseFugue said:


> Yeah, perhaps if he'd done a 7th opus 18 quartet then I could see that finale finding a more appropriate place.


I tend to find Op.130 generally "lightweight" (compared to his other late quartets). The grosse fuge strikes me as a "real surprise" in this work. 












The cavatina has an elegant theme, but Beethoven doesn't delve into it as deep as he does in Op.131/i, Op.132/iii.
As is the case with his chamber works of this period, the use of phrases, cadences, harmony, seems to be closer to Cherubini 



 (look at the changes of the key signature and tempo) than J. Haydn. 
Op.130 (with the alternative finale) is kind of like late Chopin nocturnes, in its way to express sublimity through "happiness and tranquility"


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Why on earth did I vote for the alternative finale, on my own poll no less. Can I go back and vote for the Fugue as the finale? 

By the way, op.130 has become my favorite of the quartets.


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