# Berlioz on Mozart's Requiem



## lucia32

In a critique of Mozart's Requiem, Berlioz praised certain movements (e.g. Rex Tremendae and Lacrimosa), but dismissed others as inadequate. I was very surprised that he considered the Dies Irae unsatisfactory, as that has always been my favorite portion of the Requiem. Berlioz thought that it didn't sound scary enough. He claimed that even the weakest imagination can conjure up terrors far more severe than what Mozart's music suggests. Personally, I think that the Dies Irae sounds even more horrific than the penultimate scene in Don Giovanni (which has often been praised as "terrifying").

What do you think of the Dies Irae? Do you agree with Berlioz's harsh assessment? You can hear the Dies Irae at 7:27 in this recording: 




Berlioz's critique can be found here: https://books.google.com/books?id=1...gK#v=onepage&q=berlioz mozart requiem&f=false The book is called Berlioz on Music: Selected Criticism, 1824-1837.


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## Proms Fanatic

I guess if you compare it to Verdi's Dies Irae, it might seem a little tame (although Berlioz obviously didn't know about this yet!)

I do think Berlioz is a bit harsh but I do have some sympathy with his assertion that it has terrifying moments interspersed with some more "mellow" periods in between.


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## MoonlightSonata

I disagree completely. The entire requiem, including the Dies Irae, is sublime!


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## mstar

The Dies Irae has always struck me as scary enough, and I think making it any more frightening would be beginning to lose the meaning of a requiem mass, which isn't to scare people, but to give them hope in God's mercy and to pray for whoever died. That meaning should be preserved in the requiem, and it shouldn't become an opera tragedy.


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## lucia32

How do you think the Dies Irae compares to the penultimate scene in Don Giovanni? Do you think it is more or less terrifying?


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## Headphone Hermit

I very much like Mozart's _Requiem_ and my enjoyment and appreciation of it as a piece of music is not diminished by Hector's rather dismissive comment, but he *does* have a point about the _Dies Ire_ being a little less than terrifying ... and he was able to put his money where his mouth was in his own setting of these words - if you've never heard it, then have a listen through some good quality equipment. You may still enjoy Mozart's but you might also enjoy Berlioz' vision of the Day of Wrath


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## EDaddy

I always thought of it as a very tense scene in the unfolding story, not so much scary. If "scary" or "terrifying" are the words in question, I would wholeheartedly agree with Berlioz that it fails to deliver on _those_ terms. It doesn't sound scary to me and certainly not terrifying. Just tense or_ in_tense.

Does that take anything at all away from the work as being the penultimate requiem of all time? _Hellz no!_


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## Headphone Hermit

EDaddy said:


> Does that take anything at all away from the work as being the *penultimate *requiem of all time?


What is *your* meaning of _penultimate_?


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## trazom

Perhaps Berlioz missed the point and it wasn't Mozart's intention to scare his listeners at all? Maybe Mozart was happy enough to win their reverence and awe through his unrivaled gift for balancing what he considered both expressive and _tasteful._


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## Vaneyes

Not that Berlioz Requiem is unscathed.:lol:


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## tdc

I think the Dies Irae like many Mozart compositions is more than what it appears on the surface, I think there _is_ a darker element there. The intensity throughout the piece and whirlwind of activity that closes it out is nothing short of astonishing.

I guess Berlioz felt he could outdo Mozart by going bigger and louder? Not quite. I do like the Berlioz piece too, but he is punching over his weight here.


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## isorhythm

When Mozart was writing he was still (sort of) trying to write actual liturgical music. Horror movie "scariness" would not be appropriate. By the time Berlioz came around, the pretense that this music was ever going to be used in church was out the window. His standards were totally different.


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## lucia32

Mozart's Dies Irae doesn't sound as big and bombastic as Verdi's treatment, but I don't think that lessens the emotional impact of the Mozart. He was a composer who could achieve extraordinary effects through the simplest means. For example, the previously mentioned penultimate scene from Don Giovanni uses relatively simple musical devices, but audiences perceive the music as terrifying. Many commentators have described it as the most imposing and awe-inspiring scene in all opera. Tchaikovsky said that other composers would have provided a more bombastic treatment of Don Giovanni's demise (throwing orchestral thunderclaps all over the place), but it wouldn't have sounded as effective as Mozart's treatment. In a similar fashion, the Dies Irae might sound simple compared to more Romantic treatments, but in my opinion, it still sounds genuinely intense and menacing.


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## PierreN

Listening to the Dies Irae from Mozart's Requiem, I have cold sweats of terror thinking that Mozart might have died before writing it down.


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## PlaySalieri

I think Mozart knew what he was doing - he was composing a church mass for a dead person - to be performed in a church - not a big showpiece for a meastro like Giulini to prove he can make his eyes start from their sockets when the big bass drum starts hammering away like in the verdi dies irae. Perhaps Berlioz did not grasp this - or he was just another artist in the romantic age who thought music had evolved since mozart and haydn.


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