# Weekly Study: Piano Sonata



## Selby

In attempts to deepen my understanding of the piano, I have been making changes to my listening habits. One of these changes is what I am calling a 'Weekly Study.' For one week I listen to the same recording of a piano sonata at least once a day without distraction.

Throughout the week I attempt to do some pedestrian research, basic Google-ing, to read about the piece where possible; ideally find and read/listen to lecture about the piece. I attempt to follow the score at lease once while listening. 

This habit has deeply increased my appreciation of particular sonatas. I've found this new level of intimacy really rewarding. 

So far my selections have been:

Scriabin: Sonata No. 3 in F-sharp minor, Op. 23 (1898), Maria Lettberg
Boulez: Sonata No. 2 (1948), Maurizio Pollini
Beethoven: Sonata No. 23 in F minor, Op. 57, "Appassionata" (1805), Alfred Brendel
Prokofiev: Sonata No. 8 in F-flat major, Op. 84 (1944), Boris Giltburg
Hovhaness: Journey to Arcturus, Op. 354 (1981), Nicola Giosmin

I'm intending to post the occasional thought/reflection/update in this thread. I am hoping someone will recommend a piece for me to choose next week. If anyone is interested in engaging in similar listening habits, I would be thrilled to read about it.

blessings,


----------



## Selby

Hovhaness: Journey to Arcturus, Op. 354 (1981), Nicola Giosmin

From an interview with the pianist:
http://www.hovhaness.com/Alan-Hovhaness-Sonatas-Nicola-Giosmin-interview.html

_So how do you see Hovhaness "tying traditions" in Journey to Arcturus?_

The title already suggests a journey beyond human capability. The choice of Hovhaness is to build a sort of programme for this imaginary journey, but this is not a simple programme music.

Hovhaness starts with a Lullaby - you can find some lullabies in his sonatas, an interesting aspect to study - that leads the listener to a quiet mood. A modal Vibration fugue follows. It is a concept typical of Hovhaness: a fugue with a theme made up of repeated notes, the theme must literally 'vibrate' and so the fugue moves not only in the harmonic and counterpoint side but also internally, each note carries a big tension and each modulation and each entry of the theme adds more tension.

After that a Nocturne follows and we find the mysterious atmosphere of the beginning. This is the preparation for the journey because the fourth movement Jhala for Star Journey is the emotional climax of the sonata. The jhala is an Indian form based - I'll keep the whole thing extremely simple - on an upper line of repeated notes with a melody interjected: of course the performer must keep in relief the melody while the repeated notes are in the background. Besides this an ostinato drone in the bass line accompanies at regular lapses of time, not the classical four or six. This jhala uses the piano in a very percussive manner - so exploiting a piano characteristic - with chromatic passages: the drone is based on major seventh intervals (and fourths) while the melody is of a mysterious chromaticism. Sometimes changes of time and meter culminate in polymodal episodes until the very peak: an outburst of minor seconds - witness the relationship with both the theme and the seventh of the drone - starting from the extreme low octave of the keyboard, reaching the highest octave and coming back at a high speed.

The 'flat' jhala restarts after a fermata and fades away in a completely mysterious way. To save the listener from this abyss, Hovhaness provides a sad but plain Love Song. Finally another jhala, chromatic and playing with the major-minor modes, ends the sonata.

With this Jhala for Arcturus we have finally reached the star, but we don't know if we are safer than before. Well, after this simple description - hardly an analysis and it cannot replace a listening, of course - I pose this simple question: how can we judge a sonata like this? Why did Hovhaness call it "sonata"? Which meter of aesthetic judgment can we use for this kind of music? I do not have all the answers but I can say that the whole construction, the balance of the "hot points" with the quiet moments, the consistency of the material used in the different movements and the peculiar use of the oriental structures - not in a pictorial way, but in a real musical way - rank this sonata at a very high level in Hovhaness's output.

Thoughts on the 3rd day of listening: I can see how people associate Hovhaness with 'background' or new age music. I have been playing this a lot in the background while I am at my work office. It is pleasant and forgettable. The movements really blend together. In contrast, when devoting concentrated listening, it is a dichotomous experience: I found the movement to be very distinct even when developing repeated themes; I experience the piece to have incredible depth and complexity and more rewarding at each concentrated listen. It borders on annoying me while playing in the background.

Has anyone else heard this? I'm not sure how accessible it is?


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

What a great idea! I just may join in on this sometime. But for now, may I suggest the Liszt or Dutilleux sonatas, one of Prokofiev's War Sonatas, or Brahms's 3rd. Yeah, I like piano sonatas too


----------



## Selby

^Thank you. Those are all great ideas! I just did Prokofiev's 8th last week, so I'm going to skip more War Sonatas for now. I think I would like to get to the rest. I have a long history with Liszt's B minor so that doesn't feel urgent, but I would love to dig deeper into the Dante Sonata, I have the Bertrand Chamayou recordings of Années de pèlerinage. I'm also really excited about the idea of Dutilleux, I have the John Ogdon recording. Brahms is a slog for me, I'm going to postpone that  


For next week, which would be your vote?

Dutilleux: Piano Sonata (1947-48), John Ogdon 

OR

Liszt: Années de pèlerinage: Deuxième année: Italie, S.161, No. 7, "Après une lecture de Dante: Fantasia Quasi Sonata" in D minor (1849), Bertrand Chamayou


Thanks!


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Selby said:


> ^Thank you. Those are all great ideas! I just did Prokofiev's 8th last week, so I'm going to skip more War Sonatas for now. I think I would like to get to the rest. I have a long history with Liszt's B minor so that doesn't feel urgent, but I would love to dig deeper into the Dante Sonata, I have the Bertrand Chamayou recordings of Années de pèlerinage. I'm also really excited about the idea of Dutilleux, I have the John Ogdon recording. Brahms is a slog for me, I'm going to postpone that
> 
> For next week, which would be your vote?
> 
> Dutilleux: Piano Sonata (1947-48), John Ogdon
> 
> OR
> 
> Liszt: Années de pèlerinage: Deuxième année: Italie, S.161, No. 7, "Après une lecture de Dante: Fantasia Quasi Sonata" in D minor (1849), Bertrand Chamayou
> 
> Thanks!


Of those two, I would personally pick Dutilleux as I find Liszt's piano music really spotty outside of the great Sonata. But that's just me I have a feeling you wouldn't be disappointed with the Dutilleux, a very interesting piece of music. I've found that modern music such as this is best appreciated when thought of in terms of color rather than structure.


----------



## Vicente

For a newbie in TC like me, there is a great problema. I am feeling attracted by so many good ideas, that I am going to need several lifes to have enough time to participate in all of them.
Nevertheless, the piano sonatas weekly study is one in which I am willing to participate.
Would you be so kind to anticípate next week sonata to try and obtain some recording and information?
Thanks a lot
Vicente


----------



## Josquin13

I think it's a great idea. But if I can make a suggestion, from my past experience, I've found that the best way to create a discussion/listening group is to first create a list of those that wish to participate, and then each week allow a different person on that list--in sequential order--to choose a Piano Sonata that will be listened to by the whole group and then discussed. Of course, you don't have to do that, but if you do, it will allow others to pick works that you might not know, or have thought about, and everyone will get their turn, which will keep people more closely engaged, week by week. Just a thought.

Right now, I'm exploring Scandinavian piano music. Years ago, the Canadian pianist Glenn Gould was looking for a Scandinavian piano sonata to serve as a coupling with the Grieg Piano Sonata, on an LP album that he planned to record for Columbia (or CBS) records. However, Gould was having trouble finding a suitable work; so he asked his friend, the American composer, Alan Stout, who had studied composition in Denmark (with Vagn Holmboe) and had works performed in Sweden, if he could make a suggestion. In response, Stout recommended the Piano Sonata No. 2 by the Norwegian composer Fartein Valen. Gould had never heard of Valen, so he ordered a bunch of Valen's scores, and when he played through the Piano Sonata no. 2 he was astonished at its high quality. In a letter to Jane Friedman of CBS Records, Gould wrote, "Valen's music provides the most 'refined'--if that's the appropriate word--utilization of conventional 12-tone techniques this side of Alban Berg [without having] any of the frenetic hyper-romantic qualities of Berg... I really do feel, for the first time in many years, that I've encountered a major figure in 20th century music"* (*this quote comes from Peter Ostwald's book, "Glenn Gould: The Ecstasy and Tragedy of Genius". But Gould also discusses his conversation with Stout and subsequent discovery of Valen's music in one of his selected letters.)

Here's a YT clip of Gould talking about and performing Valen's Piano Sonatas No. 2 on CBC radio: 



. Personally, I agree with Gould. I find Valen's Piano Sonata no. 2 to be a remarkable 20th century work, and prefer it to Berg's early Sonata for piano, Op. 1. It gets even more interesting with repeated listening.

In addition, here's the Grieg Piano Sonata, Op. 7 that Gould coupled the Valen work with: 




Here too is a recent discovery that I've made of a piano sonata by the Finish composer, Einar Englund, which may be of interest:

Einar Englund, Piano Sonata no.1: 




& here are two more 'off the beaten track' piano sonata discoveries that I've made in the past year, which again, I find of a surprising high quality, especially the Piano Sonata no. 2, Op. 94 below:

Alexander Tcherepnin, Piano sonata no 1, op. 22: 

















Alexander Tcherepnin Piano sonata no. 2, Op. 94: 




Interestingly, the Russian-born Alexander Tcherepnin, who later settled in Paris, was the son of the Russian composer Nikolai Tcherepnin, who composed the ballet, Narcisse et Echo, for the Ballet Russes during the same era that Diaghilev was commissioning the great ballets by Ravel, Debussy, & Stravinsky.

Though of course I don't mean to recommend that you explore these lesser known piano sonatas before you've listened to all of the great piano sonatas by Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Brahms, Scriabin, Prokofiev, and Shostakovich. Those probably should come first?


----------



## Vicente

My vote goes also to Dutilleux.
I have Brian Ganz recording for Accord.


----------



## Selby

Thanks for everyone’s participation and feedback! 

Through democratic choice, this weeks Sonata will be Dutilleux. 

The game is simple. Listen to it once a day and please let us know what your experiences are. Could be initial impressions, changing impressions, or final impressions, or all of the above. 

If anyone comes up with any scholarly sources please share them here. 

I really appreciate Josquin13s thoughts above. If it’s okay with other participants, I would like to offer them next weeks choice. And agree that we should go in order for participants to make selection. 

Josqiun13 - if your inclined to make a selection, could you let us know in advance? If it is a more obscure piece I would like folks to have the time/opportunity to acquire it depending on their listening preference. 

Thanks!


----------



## Roger Knox

Selby, this is a good idea! I'd like to join and add my support for the Dutilleux Sonata; I have Annie Quefellec's recording. Josquin13's suggestions are good. Listening to lesser-known works sometimes is a good idea too.


----------



## mark6144

I like this idea as a way of exploring new music and perhaps learning how to appreciate music that I was not able to appreciate before.

I listened to the Dutilleux this morning, Queffelec's recording. I have never heard it before and although I love solo piano, the Dutilleux is not the kind of music I usually listen to. I also read about the work and composer on Wikipedia. 

My first impressions: it reminded me of late Debussy, both for the character of the music and also because although I enjoy Debussy up until about 1905, I find much of his work after that point quite difficult to engage with, despite perseverance, in quite similar ways. Having listened through, I can remember very little about it. There were no passages that particularly moved me nor melodic motifs that stuck in my head. It wasn't quite in the realm of plink-plonk, but most of the notes felt unexpected, to the point of being a little random, and that seemed to impede any phrase, motif or even crescendo from affecting me. I struggled to relate to or engage with the music and sometimes found it difficult to keep my attention on it. It was like watching a movie in a foreign language with no subtitles. 

I will try to listen to it at least daily this week, and see if it will grow on me. Having been reminded of Debussy, I now have an ulterior motive - if I can learn to appreciate this work, perhaps it will unlock my ability to appreciate later Debussy and enable me to gain the same pleasure from those works as I do from his earlier output .


----------



## Vicente

I have listen to this piano sonata twice today, and am afraid am not going to be original. It is not the kind of music that I tend to here, but that's no impediment to tell that I have enjoyed it.

Of course, I have also not found any melody to remember, but somehow the music have inspired me deep emotions, some urgency and instability, as when you watch a good thriller.

For a first approach I have found useful this University of Columbia study, especially the movement's structures that you can find in page 14, 18 and 23. The depth of the study (doctor degree student) makes it quite difficult for me to understand in its integrity, but is enough to know that this work not being atonal, has certain atonality that I think is the reason for us not being able to catch any melody.

 Henry Dutilleux Piano Sonata Study


----------



## Selby

^Thank you for that resource! I just finished reading the biographical section. I am really smitten by the history of the Sonata in regards to his wife; apparently she was a talented pianist and he began composing it for her subsequent to their marriage. Pretty sweet story. From the biography:

After a four-year courtship, Dutilleux and Geneviève Joy wed on September 17,
1946. Inspired by Joy’s extraordinary piano skills, Dutilleux began composing Piano
Sonata for his wife the following year.28 Dutilleux held Joy in high esteem; he notably
admired her sight-reading skills, even with complicated orchestral scores and new works
and he also lauded her exemplary technical skills, nimble touch, and capacity for subtle
interpretation and expressiveness. Her impressive technical qualities roused Dutilleux so
much so that he launched his maiden attempt at creating music outside of his comfort
zone; a distinctly ‘non-French’ dense musical language that explored the use of nuance
and sonority within the context of a large-scale virtuoso concert work.29

Dutilleux completed the Piano Sonata, Op. 1 in 1948 and dedicated it to Joy. He
had previously dedicated one short piece to her, the final movement Etude of the suite for 
piano entitled Au gré des ondes(1946). From 1946 Dutilleux recognized that his musical
language was becoming modal rather than tonal. He mentioned that the Sonata still
contains classical or neo-classical forms and represents a thoughtful rejection of the
French divertissement style, the first work in which he still finds passages that he likes.30


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I must confess that I do not have the desire to listen to the same work every day in a week. However, after listening today, I can share a few thoughts. I suggested this sonata because it is one of several works that has gently pushed me towards understanding modernist musical language. It is still quite adventurous for my musically conservative ears, but contains a great deal of tight craftsmanship and retains clear thematic ideas. My favorite thing to do with music like this is to envision a blank canvas upon which the composer splashes a variety of vibrant colors to gently tease the senses. This is how I listen to other modernists such as Messiaen and Webern; and it has really helped me to find a sort of beauty in this music that I previously considered to be bafflingly random. Though it stretches boundaries, this sonata is still quite tonal. The main melody of the first movement doesn't sound much more adventuous than many late Romantic composers, and the second movement ends on a very clear tonal chord. Of the three, I like the first movement best with its classical sonata form and especially its delicate, evocative central portion. Structurally, the finale _Choral et variations_ is most interesting, with an atonal and even terrifyingly dark chorale serving as the basis for a series of variations that introduce brilliant varieties of rhythm and counterpoint. Towards the end, we finally reach the light with a triumphant, mostly tonal ending. Dutilleux may not come easily to those not yet acquainted with modernism - I'm still very much working on him myself! But for someone new to him, I would definitely suggest this first over Tout un Monde and the other orchestral works. And I would definitely place it in the top 10-15 piano sonatas of the 20th century.


----------



## mark6144

After two more listens, I'm a little more comfortable hearing this sonata. Some sections now sound familiar, and some I'm even starting to enjoy. I still don't feel moved though, and don't feel I "get it" yet. I have the sense that I would appreciate this music more if it were background music to an animated film, or similar.


----------



## Selby

After listening to this yesterday, my first reaction was how much I enjoyed the simple melody in the first movement, and how disappointed I was that it did not return in later movements (unless I missed how he reiterated it). Second, I certainly haven't grasped the piece as a whole yet, and could naturally follow how all the passages played into one another. Having said that, I really enjoyed some of the more experimental passages on their own.


----------



## Josquin13

Selby writes, "I really appreciate Josquin13s thoughts above. If it's okay with other participants, I would like to offer them next weeks choice. And agree that we should go in order for participants to make selection.

Josqiun13 - if your inclined to make a selection, could you let us know in advance? If it is a more obscure piece I would like folks to have the time/opportunity to acquire it depending on their listening preference. "

Sure, thanks. Why don't we go with the Piano Sonata no. 2 by the Norwegian composer Fartein Valen that I mentioned in my post above. The You Tube link that I provided was to the CBS/Sony recording by Glenn Gould, and it includes Gould's spoken introduction to the work--made for a program that he presented on CBC radio (which also included the Grieg Piano Sonata, op. 7). There are two other recordings of the sonata by pianists Robert Riefling and Einar Henning Smebye (who both recorded the complete solo piano works by Valen), as well as recordings by Jørgen Larsen (see link below) and Einar Røttingen, but I only know (& own) the Gould recording, which I like. It helps to listen to Gould's introduction (more than once), since he offers perceptive thoughts about the sonata; which are worth bringing into our discussion here I think. After listening to the sonata several times, I come to agree with Gould and the late composer Alan Stout, who both considered Valen's work to be one of the great piano sonatas of the 20th century.

Can everybody here access You Tube? Here's the YT Gould link again:






In addition, here's a link to a recording by Jørgen Larsen, whose interpretation differs from Gould's, not surprisingly, as Gould sees the work more contrapuntally: 



.

& here's yet another more 'modern' view of the work, from pianist Einar Røttingen (which I'm listening to at the moment):


----------



## mark6144

Is there a start/end date for each sonata, so that we don't have the thread confused by interleaved comments on multiple works at once?


----------



## Selby

mark6144 said:


> Is there a start/end date for each sonata, so that we don't have the thread confused by interleaved comments on multiple works at once?


*Mon 2/24 - Sun 3/1*
Dutilleux: Piano Sonata (1948)


----------



## Selby

Yesterday I had listened to the John Ogdon recording again, and felt the repeated listening was enjoyable.

However, last night I looked the piece up on YouTube. There is a live recording by Cathy Krier. I then remembered that this piece was on her debut album. I never purchased that but I did purchase her subsequent three albums and have held her in high esteem. I very much appreciate her touch. If you are interested there is a recording pairing Rameau with Ligeti, a complete solo piano works of Janáček, and a collection of "20th Century" including Schoenberg, Berg, and others.

Unfortunately, the sound was not perfectly synced with the recording, which was frustrating (at least on my playback device). I did start to recognize the return of the primary first movement melody in later iterations. This helped me feel more connected to the piece and start to discern more of it's form, which was rewarding.

Here is a link to the performance:





Tonight I plan on following along with the score:


----------



## mark6144

Have listened twice more, and made an effort to pay attention to details in the work, like left-hand parts, harmonies, etc. I also listened to some of that live performance on YouTube - thanks for that link.

I'm starting to get to know the work better. I even found myself almost whistling the main theme from the first movement in the car today. Despite that, I don't really feel that I'm enjoying it more, and it's still difficult to keep my attention on it all the way through. It takes effort to listen to it, and the music never really grabs me. I will continue for at least another day or two, but have to admit I'm not experiencing the hoped-for revelation and am losing interest a little.


----------



## Selby

^ For what it's worth... There have been pieces that I have initially really enjoyed that I grew disdain for through repeated listens. Maybe there won't be a revelation?


----------



## mark6144

I listened to a different performance today - Genevieve Joy. I barely recognised it, and liked it more. I might try out some other performances too. 

I'm curious whether this kind of music is particularly susceptible to the interpretation of the performer, to tease something meaningful or beautiful out of the jumble of notes?


----------



## Josquin13

I agree with mark6144, Geneviève Joy finds a more human element or expression within all those notes, especially in the 1st movement. The later recordings are a bit cooler--generally. I also hear a strong influence of Prokofiev in the first movement. Which, at the same time, strikes me as being more American sounding than French. For example, I'm reminded of the frenetic 'traffic-like' quality of the first movement of Samuel Barber's 4 Excursions, which was composed several years before Dutilleux's sonata in 1944. Yet, there are parts of the sonata that have an undeniable French character, too, as I hear the influence of Ravel & Debussy in this music (and perhaps Chabrier & Faure?).

But I don't know if a mishmash of influences means that Dutilleux had yet to find his own voice as a composer. I'll have to think about that some more. (For me, the 3rd movement is the least of the three, until maybe the last 2 or 3 minutes. It seems to meander around and lose focus at times...)

Barber's Excursions:









Here's a link to Joy playing the sonata: 




Joy is also more concentrated in the 2nd movement than other pianists I've heard. Although I like Anne Queffelec in this music, too. I'll have to listen to John Ogden, if I can find his recording.


----------



## Roger Knox

mark6144 said:


> I'm curious whether this kind of music is particularly susceptible to the interpretation of the performer, to tease something meaningful or beautiful out of the jumble of notes?


Probably _is_ susceptible -- I'll listen to Genevieve Joy's interpretation next. I think the inner voices, both as lines and as part of the overall textural weave, place significant demands on the performer!

Personally I love this work so have listened to it many times. In addition to Debussy, there is certainly a lot of influence from Ravel (b. 1875) and some from Messiaen (b. 1908). But Dutilleux (b. 1916) is his own man! In the first movement there is jazz harmony influence (as in some of Ravel's later works) from the opening chord (the blues major+minor third) on, as well as an overall basis in the octatonic scale (eight-note, alternating whole tones - semitones). In combination with the inner and bass parts this scale basis can create dissonant clashes, leaving the impression of a jumble of notes. But actually things work out. Also the eerie second movement and the third movement (a choral reminiscent of French organ music and a _*model*_ of interesting variations) have strong profiles.


----------



## EdwardBast

mark6144 said:


> I listened to a different performance today - Genevieve Joy. I barely recognised it, and liked it more. I might try out some other performances too.
> 
> I'm curious whether this kind of music is particularly susceptible to the interpretation of the performer, to tease something meaningful or beautiful out of the jumble of notes?


I had the same reaction. Tried a couple of other performances yesterday whose effect on me was vague and less than compelling. Today I heard a performance by Joy and found it brilliantly conceived and poetic. As for susceptibility to interpretation and teasing out something beautiful - I'd say it just sounds like an exceptionally difficult work to get to the heart of. In the Joy performance I got a sense that she knew where the critical culmination points are and that she was able to give the whole a distinct shape and a satisfying pacing.

Of course the above is the impression of someone who has barely begun to grasp the work. But if I listen to it again it will probably be the Joy performance.


----------



## mark6144

The recording I am listening to is this one, which is also on Spotify: https://www.discogs.com/Henri-Dutil...erre-Dervaux-Henri-Dutilleux/release/10498640.

I'm not sure when the recording was made.

I've listened again and this performance has really opened the work up to me. It also appeals to me that Joy was his wife and the dedicatee of the work - perhaps she held some deeper and more personal understanding of what he was trying to communicate through it? It could of course just be her pianistic skills, but I find the notion appealing anyway .

I am going to seek out the Ogdon recording later and try that one too.


----------



## EdwardBast

mark6144 said:


> The recording I am listening to is this one, which is also on Spotify: https://www.discogs.com/Henri-Dutil...erre-Dervaux-Henri-Dutilleux/release/10498640.
> 
> I'm not sure when the recording was made.
> 
> I've listened again and this performance has really opened the work up to me. It also appeals to me that Joy was his wife and the dedicatee of the work - *perhaps she held some deeper and more personal understanding* of what he was trying to communicate through it? It could of course just be her pianistic skills, but I find the notion appealing anyway .
> 
> I am going to seek out the Ogdon recording later and try that one too.


If not it wasn't much of a marriage.


----------



## Selby

I just discovered that I have a recording of Dutilleux' complete piano works by Robert Levin. I had forgotten about it. Listening to the Sonata currently.


----------



## mark6144

I tried the John Chen recording, but for me it lacked the sparks of Joy's recording. Pity about the sound quality of the latter - the hiss is bearable but there is what sounds like an LP scratch, as if whatever they are streaming on Spotify was captured from old vinyl.

I'm now done with the Dutilleux. It has been an interesting experiment, and I've learned something about how to appreciate this kind of music. After maybe 8-10 listens, I'm more comfortable hearing it, but much of it still lies outside the sphere of what sounds "naturally musical" to me, and I'm not sure if that can change. After my last listen, I put on some Haydn and it was like returning home. I still can't imagine sitting down to listen to music and feeling the urge to choose the Dutilleux; but who knows, maybe I will come back to it some day.

I've also asked myself why I am bothering - after all, I could get used to anything if I listen to it enough times. Why modern classical and not R&B or death metal? Or why not just spend the time on something I already like? I don't really have a good answer for that, except that it's motivated by curiosity and spirit of exploration, which means I have to remain open to finding nothing, or at least not what I expect. I'm certainly not setting out to push myself to like these works.

I will give next week's work a try too.


----------



## Roger Knox

I like Genevieve Joy's version especially for her classic French pianism -- clear and even articulation, pedalling colouristic but never muddy. Every time I listen there is more to this work -- polytonality in some places maybe?

Moving on to Valen now ...


----------



## mark6144

*Mon 3/2 - Sun 3/8*
Valen: Piano Sonata No. 2 (1940)

I've listened to this a couple of times now. Wow. This one is going to be harder than the Dutilleux. At least with Dutilleux I could find some motifs, contrasts and drama to give me a way in to the music. So far with the Valen, I have got nowhere.

I've tried two recordings, the Gould and the Riefling. I don't have a preference, yet.

Will try again tomorrow... maybe.


----------



## mark6144

More Valen this morning - the Gould recording. Still struggling with it. I enjoy surprising or uncomfortable music, but I now realise that usually it's because those elements are set against a foundation that is more predictable and comfortable. It's the contrast that generates the surprise and discomfort. With this Valen, it feels like there is no such foundation, and the surprise just dissipates into randomness. I'm actually finding it a little irritating.


----------



## mark6144

For some reason I am completely failing to grasp the Valen. Two possible reasons come to mind:-

1. It is indeed a work of genius and beauty, but appreciation of it is sadly beyond my intellectual capacity.

2. The emperor is in fact naked, and it's just 22 minutes of plinking and plonking. 

For a while I pondered whether #1 might not be the case, despite the recognition that I can't claim the intellectual capacity to conclude #2 either (nor would I want to be so dismissive). Then I realised that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I've read everything about the work that I could easily find through Google (not much), and listened to Gould's intro. There's a lot of talk of Valen's advanced idiom, of rhythmically truncated secondary motifs and quasi-tonal contrapuntal blah blah, and it's clear that a lot of skill, creativity and innovation went into the work and is recognised and appreciated by others. It's also clear that this appreciation is usually expressed in terms of this same academic language.

So that's my conclusion on the Valen sonata. To me, it epitomises a kind of music that is written by and for a tiny clique of academics and highly-educated afficionados that possess specialist knowledge and skills to appreciate it; but to the ordinary listener like me, it's a foreign language that is pretty much inaccessible and sounds an awful lot like plink-plonk. That's a disappointing conclusion for me, because my participation in this thread was motivated by a desire to discover that contemporary classical is more accessible than it seems. Even if not my cup of tea, I was hoping to at least learn to see the musicality in it.

I'm still interested to try next week's work, but as far as the Valen is concerned, as they say on Dragon's Den, "I'm out".


----------



## Selby

^Mark6144 - I really appreciate you thoughtful remarks. I'm enjoying reading about people's honest reaction to music, particularly when we have the same exposure to the pieces.


I'm having a different experience. Valen's piano sonata has been MUCH easier for me to enter into than Dutilleux'. The listening experience has been akin to Morton Feldman or Jurg Frey's piano works. There is a meditative quality that I find easier an more pleasurable to engage with than the more esoteric and complex contemporary works, like Boulez or Dutilleux. It's kind of like the difference between yoga and hot yoga. I can do yoga and kind of 'fake it' and take it slow and it will be fine, at minimum a little useful. Hot yoga will be painful and I have to commit to the process to get any benefit from it.

I've listened to the Gould recording 4 times now and plan to branch out to other pianists.


Would you like to pick next weeks selection? Maybe something pre-20th century?


----------



## mark6144

^ I'm curious whether these "meditative qualities" mean you listen differently to the music. For me, I'm either paying attention or I'm not. Music that doesn't click with me whilst I'm paying attention might work quite well as a background to something else, like a task or a movie - but I don't see how that could apply to an empty mind 



Selby said:


> Would you like to pick next weeks selection? Maybe something pre-20th century?


Sure - let's start by narrowing it down. I've recently been meaning to explore the music of Bartok. Also Prokofiev and Scriabin, but you've listened to those already. As for pre-20th century, I'm not a massive fan of Liszt but would be willing to try the Dante, as suggested earlier; and I've neglected Brahms. I've never got to grips with Alkan's Quatre Ages sonata, although I love his other works. Other composers I'd be interested to explore include Fauré and von Weber. Or we could go back further and try some CPE Bach. Some of his works seem quite outlandish for their day, and I've never really got to grips with those either.


----------



## Selby

mark6144 said:


> Sure - let's start by narrowing it down. I've recently been meaning to explore the music of Bartok. Also Prokofiev and Scriabin, but you've listened to those already. As for pre-20th century, I'm not a massive fan of Liszt but would be willing to try the Dante, as suggested earlier; and I've neglected Brahms. I've never got to grips with Alkan's Quatre Ages sonata, although I love his other works. Other composers I'd be interested to explore include Fauré and von Weber. Or we could go back further and try some CPE Bach. Some of his works seem quite outlandish for their day, and I've never really got to grips with those either.


I'm fine with any of these including Scriabin or Prokofiev (I'd just prefer to avoid Scriabin's 3rd and Prokofiev's 8th).


----------



## EdwardBast

I just listened to Valen's Sonata no. 2, performed by Glenn Gould because it was the only performance I could find on youtube. Aside from wishing someone had muzzled Gould so I wouldn't have to hear his vocalizations (due, I can only assume, to mental illness), I have no confidence that the pianist is any more competent with this work than he is with Prokofiev, Brahms, Beethoven, etc. So, any negative impressions of the music are provisional pending hearing a performance by a better pianist. 

I found the sonority, harmonic language and contrapuntal writing appealing on a local level, and I suspect the melodic (well, linear?) material is strongly unified, especially between the first and last movements. Almost any individual passage wouldn't sound out of place in one of Prokofiev's War Sonatas (particularly in the Eighth), and it's clear Valen was mining the same terrain as Prokofiev. Unfortunately, the similarity in language (and I understand that this was written a couple of years before Prokofiev's Eighth), just made me miss Prokofiev's sharper contrasts, longer sense of line, melodic gift, skill at thematic characterization, and dramatic sense, along with his quirky polystylism. I think I should give this work another chance but will do so only if I can find a (free ) performance by someone other than Gould. As yet I'm not smitten with it or particularly intrigued.


----------



## Selby

^ EdwardBlast - there were two links to YT performances on an earlier page in the thread. 

Liszt’ Dante Sonata next week?


----------



## Selby

*3/9 - 3/15
*
Liszt: Dante Sonata


----------



## mark6144

OK let's do the Dante this week. I have been busy the last few days but am looking forward to getting my teeth into a new sonata.

I did think about selection and would like to do an Alkan, but perhaps the Symphony for Solo Piano rather than the Quatre Ages. Perhaps we can do that one next week?


----------



## mark6144

I listened to four performances of the Dante back-to-back on a long drive last night - Berman, Barenboim, Andsnes and Jando. My first impression is of typical Liszt - uninteresting melodies crashed out in octaves, stadium rock style. Not really my cup of tea, sorry Liszt fans! In the spirit of this thread I will give it a few more listens and see if it will grow on me. I don't have a preferred recording yet, as that will probably require a more careful listen without road noise.

Comparing to the experience of studying the Dutilleux or Valen, the Liszt is obviously more accessible. I can appreciate the musicality and understand why others might enjoy it. Studying it (or at least, making myself listen to it repeatedly) feels more like challenging my own tastes than challenging my musical appreciation capabilities, and I'm not sure why I would want to do that. I'll see where it takes me, but I suspect I'll find this thread more rewarding where the works are of styles and genres less familiar to me.


----------



## Selby

Sounds good to me - let's do the Symphony for Solo Piano next week.


----------



## Selby

I've listened to the Bertrand Chamayou recording 3 or 4 times this week. I agree with Mark6144's sentiment that it sounds like Liszt being Liszt, but, I find I'm enjoying it's brevity. I realize it is a single portion of a much longer work - I have actually listened to the 3 Years of Pilgrimage in a single sitting (woof) - I am enjoying this 15 minute selection on it's own merits. It works alone. I realize that may not be the strongest endorsement - 'well at least it's not really long' - but I find myself surprised at how much I'm have enjoyed it.


----------



## Selby

Here's a video with the sheet music.


----------



## mark6144

I haven't had much listening time this week but have given the Dante a couple of listens with headphones, and like it much more as a result. I can get quite absorbed in the quieter passages when able to hear all their detail. The bombastic sections are still a bit much for me, but he certainly does a good job of maximising the impact of the piano. In a way, it adds to my enjoyment to think that what I am listening to is a deliberate attempt to stretch the dynamic contrasts of the piano when it was still relatively new and becoming stronger and more capable over time; it kind of adds a historical perspective and I might hold a different sentiment towards the music if it had been written 100 years later.

The crashing ending reminds me of Satie's Embryons Desseches "joke"


----------



## Selby

Deleted post, see below.


----------



## mark6144

Selby said:


> *3/16-3/22*
> _Alkan_: Concerto for solo piano


Can we do symphony for solo piano instead? I'm more interested in it because it scales back on the Liszt-like virtuosity and bombastics, compared to his earlier works like the concerto. Op. 39, nos. 4-7. I have listened to the Jack Gibbons recording a couple of times.

I didn't find enough time last week to really do the Dante justice, but I spent enough time with it to know that I will go back to it at some point in the future.


----------



## Selby

^ Sorry, I misunderstood; of course:

*3/16 - 3/22*
_Alkan:_ Symphony for solo piano


----------



## mark6144

Anyone else listened to this, this week?


----------



## Selby

I've been listening to both Alkan's Symphony and Concerto for solo piano throughout the week. My reaction confirms prior experiences: I am in awe of the the pieces, even with pedestrian piano chops I can feel the mastery and appreciate the skill of the pieces, but I don't feel particularly moved by his idiom. Admittedly, much of the listening has been background and I have only had a few concentrated listens.

I work in a clinic in Washington State - although I'm not doing primary care, needless to say, it has been a difficult week, and I'm bracing for more difficulty to come in the next month.

How do you feel about listening to a sonata from Haydn to pair with the string quartet thread, preferably one from the 6 disc Marc-Adrew Hamelin set? Or if not that something by Medtner?

cheers,


----------



## mark6144

Any Haydn would be great. Several of his sonatas are among my favourites overall.

I listened to Alkan's symphony several times this week, then also his concerto, once. I do enjoy his miniatures, the Esquisses and Chants, but have never properly tried his larger works. The symphony grew on me quickly. I find it rhythmically quite interesting, especially the middle two movements; there's something insistent and driving about them that reminds me of a toccata. Overall I really enjoyed the work, but I do feel it was a little too easy. After a few listens I felt I had to leave it for a while to prevent myself becoming bored of it too early.

That's when I switched to the concerto, but I didn't really appreciate that any more than I did before. The opening allegro assai just grinds on too long and by half way through I've had enough.

Good luck at the clinic this week. Tough times for sure.


----------



## Selby

Great!

I found this old thread: My Favorite Haydn Piano Sonatas (Brahmsian Colors)

Let's pick number two...

Piano Sonata in A-flat major, Hob. XVI/46

I'm going to start with the Marc-Andrew Hamelin recording


----------



## flamencosketches

Selby said:


> I've been listening to both Alkan's Symphony and Concerto for solo piano throughout the week. My reaction confirms prior experiences: I am in awe of the the pieces, even with pedestrian piano chops I can feel the mastery and appreciate the skill of the pieces, but I don't feel particularly moved by his idiom. Admittedly, much of the listening has been background and I have only had a few concentrated listens.
> 
> I work in a clinic in Washington State - although I'm not doing primary care, needless to say, it has been a difficult week, and I'm bracing for more difficulty to come in the next month.
> 
> How do you feel about listening to a sonata from Haydn to pair with the string quartet thread, preferably one from the 6 disc Marc-Adrew Hamelin set? Or if not that something by Medtner?
> 
> cheers,


Stay safe, stay healthy, and keep your head up. I work at a clinic in Georgia, not primary care either, but we're sticking it out despite many other clinics in the specialty closing the doors. Last week was a challenge and I expect the one to come will be even worse. But I'm grateful to still be working, at least, with so many of my friends getting laid off.

Just wanted to express my gratitude. I haven't participated in this thread at all, yet, but will have to try and listen to this sonata in the coming week. I'm not very familiar with Haydn's piano sonatas, and I don't have this one on disc. But I'll have to seek it out, out of curiosity. I'm sure Haydn's sonatas are worth exploring.


----------



## mark6144

Selby said:


> Piano Sonata in A-flat major, Hob. XVI/46
> 
> I'm going to start with the Marc-Andrew Hamelin recording


That is a wonderful sonata, perhaps my favourite of Haydn's and I know it well. I'll participate but want to take care not to over-listen. For works that I enjoy so much, I try to listen sparingly.

My personal preference is the McCabe. His whole Haydn set is great. Trying different recordings could be a good way of making this study interesting for a work I'm already familiar with.


----------



## Selby

Anyone want to nominate a sonata for next week? You could be new to the thread, we don't have a lot of traffic in here.


----------



## mark6144

Selby said:


> Anyone want to nominate a sonata for next week? You could be new to the thread, we don't have a lot of traffic in here.


No suggestions from me. It is indeed pretty quiet here, which is a pity as I would like to read others' opinions on these sonatas.

By the way, is there any reason this thread is limited to piano sonatas, as opposed to solo piano works in general?

I did try a few other recordings of the Haydn this week, but what I found is that I am very conditioned and biased towards what I am used to, at least in this case. Most other recordings sound wrong somehow. Pogorelich is ridiculously fast in the first movement, to the point where much of it sounds like glissando and Haydn's beautiful choices of individual notes are lost - just awful, IMHO - and then is deathly slow in the second movement. Not to my liking at all, and I find it hard to accept that Pogorelich's first movement is anywhere close to what Haydn intended when he marked it "allegro moderato". Emmanuel Ax was the only other recording I found enjoyable, although I still prefer the McCabe because Ax uses a little too much sustain, and to me that just doesn't suit the period.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I would participate more in this thread if I wasn't "running" the string quartet thread. But with oodles of listening time on my hands now, I think I could join in at least this week! If you hadn't done a Classical period sonata last week I would have nominated Mozart's 14th - so how about Schumann's 2nd, one I haven't heard yet but would like to? I'm determined to understand Schumann's music further, so this might be a good opportunity.


----------



## mark6144

Perfect, I've grown to appreciate Schumann only recently but haven't got to his sonatas yet.

*3/30 - 4/5*
R. Schumann - Piano Sonata No 2 in G minor, Op. 22


----------



## Selby

^Honest to the almighty this was the piece I was going to suggest. Spooky! I'm going to begin with the Eric le Sage recording from his box set.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

From my first cursory listen, I can tell that this is going to be my typical Schumann listening experience - an uphill slog, with repeated listens clarifying what I didn't understand at first. The first movement represents my befuddlement with him in a nutshell - weird marching rhythms (what is with his obsession with that dotted-note figure?), lack of full-fledged melodies; thick, pounding textures and generally bland writing. The second movement was more interesting, quite delicate and poetic. Is it just me or does this movement sound an awful lot like the _Tristan und Isolde_ prelude? The finale was by far my favorite, with a gorgeous secondary theme and virtuoso-type writing that seemed to serve a purpose and didn't go over the top. I expect my enjoyment of this to increase with every listen - someone on here recently told me that Schumann takes lots of repeated listening to really "get," and I hope that's the case here. I listened to Mitsuko Uchida, one of my favorite pianists, play it, but I don't think she was as sensitive as she usually is here.


----------



## mark6144

Schumann was indeed an acquired taste for me. I also found that the performer makes a big difference, and sometimes trying a new recording would bring a revelation. Now I'm truly converted.

After a few listens, this sonata doesn't yet grab me in the way many of his other works do. Somehow it feels self-conscious and laboured, as if he's not entirely comfortable trying to fill the larger form. To me it mostly lacks the spontaneity, intimacy and passion of his smaller pieces in series. The andantino is my favourite of the movements.

I have listened mostly to the Perahia, as I generally really enjoy his Schumann (his Davidsbundlertanze is marvellous). I also tried the Eric Le Sage, as I do like his set and not just for the less widely recorded works. I will give the Uchida a try too.


----------



## flamencosketches

Allegro Con Brio said:


> From my first cursory listen, I can tell that this is going to be my typical Schumann listening experience - an uphill slog, with repeated listens clarifying what I didn't understand at first. The first movement represents my befuddlement with him in a nutshell - weird marching rhythms (what is with his obsession with that dotted-note figure?), lack of full-fledged melodies; thick, pounding textures and generally bland writing. The second movement was more interesting, quite delicate and poetic. Is it just me or does this movement sound an awful lot like the _Tristan und Isolde_ prelude? The finale was by far my favorite, with a gorgeous secondary theme and virtuoso-type writing that seemed to serve a purpose and didn't go over the top. I expect my enjoyment of this to increase with every listen - someone on here recently told me that Schumann takes lots of repeated listening to really "get," and I hope that's the case here. I listened to Mitsuko Uchida, one of my favorite pianists, play it, but I don't think she was as sensitive as she usually is here.


Try Argerich or Richter next. I think you will like this sonata a lot by the end of the week.


----------

