# Mahler playlist (individual movements & tracks)



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Would you dear forumists like to create or share your Mahler Playlist which concists of individual movements/numbers/tracks you like? Symphonies, song cycles — every genre is welcome!

The point of this thread is to get around the usual obstacles like the Mahler works being so long or kind of inconcistent or with some less striking movements here and there.

The playlist should be as long and with as many numbers as you like. But please leave out the stuff you don’t really all that much care about. If you insist on listing everything, please list it in the order of your preference.

Thank you!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't believe in chopping up complete works, and I also don't find some movements far weaker than others in his works. So I'll list complete works I really care about in order of preference:

Das Lied von der Erde
Symphony 4
Kindertotenlieder
Symphony 9
Symphony 6
Ruckertlieder
Symphony 2
Symphony 10
Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen
Symphony 1

Symphony 3
Symphony 7
Symphony 5

Piano quartet movement
Des Knaben Wunderhorn
Symphony 8
Das klagende Lied

The split in three groups is according to the Artrockometer: 6/6 (hors concours, about 100 works I like best), 5/6 (essential) and 4/6 (important).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ While I don't agree with the ordering, I do agree with the initial opinion.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Symphonies:
1/ii (Laendler) Walter / Columbia Symphony
2/ii Bernstein/NYPO
2/iii In Berio Sinfonia_ Bernsten/NYPO/Swingle Sngers
3/V Horenstein/LSO
4/i. iii. iv Szell/Cleveland (precision)
6/iv Leinsdorf/BXO (absolutely straight, not herky jertky, terrifying)
7/iv Richman/NYPO (doesn't sour your dinner)
8/ii Solti/CSO Still overly long but gorgeous singing
9/i Barbirolli/BPO (studio); Abbado/VPO
10/1 (unreconstructed) Boulez
10 (performing version) Lopes Cobos/Cincinnati (Mazetti II version)
Das Lied/i/iii/iv/v/vi Klemperer/Philharmonia/Wunderlich/Ludwig


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

MarkW said:


> Symphonies:
> 1/ii (Laendler) Walter / Columbia Symphony
> 2/ii Bernstein/NYPO
> 2/iii In Berio Sinfonia_ Bernsten/NYPO/Swingle Sngers
> ...


Thank you very much for this, MarkW! Most meaningful and inspiring.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I won't give individual movements but will give (current) preferred performances:

1 - Barbirolli / Halle
2 - Klemperer / Bavarian RSO
3 - Barbirolli / Halle
4 - Rattle / Schafer / Berlin PO (only on the BPO Digital Concert Hall (*)
5 - Barshai / Junge Deutsche Philharmonie
6 - Barbirolli / New Philharmonia (live Proms on Testament)
7 - Gielen / SWR
8 - Rattle / Nat'l Youth Orch of GB (YouTube) (**)
9 - A tossup between the Rattle & Barbirolli / Berlin PO
10 - Rattle / Berlin PO with the Harding / Vienna PO as a close 2nd

* - For an interesting and very well played performance, the Gothenburg Symphony video with Barbara Hannigan as conductor and soloist.
** - If you really want a commercial then probably Dudamel / combined LAPO & Simon Bolivar orchs.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

(Secretly thanks to Art and Becca although I cannot officially thank you for breaking the rules of the thread!)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> (Secretly thanks to Art and Becca although I cannot officially thank you for breaking the rules of the thread!)


Also thanks to Art for pointing me towards the sunshine of Symphony no. 4. There is enough of "dark marching" in symphonies 2, 3, 5, 6 and 7. At the moment I am fed up with the forever dark marching and the same gestures being circulated from one symphony to another. The time for Symphonies 1, 4, 8 and 9 has come.

With this composer it is very crucial to know what to listen and when. The point of this playlist is one effort in that direction. Listening on one's own terms - to the benefit of this great composer.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I hate to spoil your fun  but there is plenty of dark in the 4th, or at least there should be if done correctly, particularly the 2nd movement where the inspiration is Arnold Böcklin's painting "_Self-Portrait with Death Playing the Fiddle_" hence the concertmaster playing a second violin which is tuned a whole step higher than his primary instrument. And then of course there is part of the 2nd stanza in the last movement...
_We lead a patient,
Guiltless, patient,
Darling lambkin to death.
Saint Luke is slaying the oxen,
Without the least hesitation;_


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> I hate to spoil your fun  but there is plenty of dark in the 4th, or at least there should be if done correctly, particularly the 2nd movement where the inspiration is Arnold Böcklin's painting "_Self-Portrait with Death Playing the Fiddle_" hence the concertmaster playing a second violin which is tuned a whole step higher than his primary instrument. And then of course there is part of the 2nd stanza in the last movement...
> _We lead a patient,
> Guiltless, patient,
> Darling lambkin to death.
> ...


Just listened to it again! Rattle version. Loved it! I do not mind profound, tragic or sad themes - quite the opposite. This ain't Forever Dark Marching, though.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> Just listened to it again! Rattle version. Loved it! I do not mind profound, tragic or sad themes - quite the opposite. This ain't Forever Dark Marching, though.


Luckily the Dark Marching of symphonies 2 and 3 differ from the marching of 5, 6 and 7. I just might find a play list strategy to cope with this material after all.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

If Mahler being too long is an obstacle then Mahler isn't for you. Chopping up these great masterworks of human creation is sacrilege.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

maestro267 said:


> If Mahler being too long is an obstacle then Mahler isn't for you. Chopping up these great masterworks of human creation is sacrilege.


I listened to the 3rd and 7th by Bernstein today. The 3rd especially is gorgous. And even the 1st Movement of the 7th did not give dark marching vibes the way some other versions do.

All this is just me trying to get the hang of this symphonist from different points of view. The process is rather crazy and illogical at times. My opinions shift. There is a lot to like but at the same time there is some problems. The similarities in the symphonies may result in overdose - which is what happened to me with the minor key marches.

Mahler play list is just one way of approach for me.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

maestro267 said:


> If Mahler being too long is an obstacle then Mahler isn't for you. Chopping up these great masterworks of human creation is sacrilege.


Whoah easy cowboy! Painting with a very wide brush you are. i started a thread a few days ago about splitting Mahler symphonies. Got a lot of agreement . Not that i really need that. Mahler is one of my favorites and yes I do split symphonies. Should i go to confession ?


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

maestro267 said:


> If Mahler being too long is an obstacle then Mahler isn't for you. Chopping up these great masterworks of human creation is sacrilege.


I've also heard that it's sacrilege to applaud between movements or chat during performances, whilst way back then these things were completely normal. In Haydn's and Mozart's days, people even came together for a concert as if it were a cosy social meeting.

I would say that people are allowed to listen to music in their own preferred way. Especially at home.

On topic: my favourite single movements of Mahler are the 3rd movement of the 5th (such a gorgeous 'horn concerto') and the first movement of the 7th. I also have a very weak spot for the gripping and emotional Finale of the 9th.

But there are plenty movements to fully enjoy.
Even an entire symphony.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

Becca said:


> I hate to spoil your fun  but there is plenty of dark in the 4th, or at least there should be if done correctly, particularly the 2nd movement where the inspiration is Arnold Böcklin's painting "_Self-Portrait with Death Playing the Fiddle_" hence the concertmaster playing a second violin which is tuned a whole step higher than his primary instrument. And then of course there is part of the 2nd stanza in the last movement...
> _We lead a patient,
> Guiltless, patient,
> Darling lambkin to death.
> ...


To me all the darkness in the 4th is still mostly taken from a more naive point of view.
I for instance hear a certain irony and playfulness in the 2nd movement.
Still much more mysterious though than f.i. the _Danse Macabre_ of Saint-Saëns.
I like the 2nd movement played a tad slow(er) than many conductors do... Inbal's recording comes to mind as one of my preferred ones.

The 4th movement, imho, is a _Kindertotenlied_, yet from the eyes of the child, who experiences heaven the same way his/her parents told him/her about it. It's a tragedy of course for the slaughtered animals, but I guess that in the 19th century the slaughter of innocent animals for a heavenly dinner was still considered something... festive.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

"Das himmlische Leben" is the humourous companion to a real Kindertotenlied, namely "Das irdische Leben" where the child starves because milling and baking etc. takes too long. As such, it is very much an earthly paradise with lots of food, more like "Schlaraffenland".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockaigne

Obviously mixed with christian symbolism, like the Lamb of God, the Fisherman St. Peter, St. Luke's symbolic animal, the ox. One of the first comments I read about this when I first encountered it over 30 years ago, was that the only stanza "untainted" by the silly or cruel aspects, is the last one with the heavenly music, which is correct.

FWIW the slaughter of animals (who are almost always innocent) for a feast is considered festive in most of the world today and has been since forever; there is a tiny sliver of people in the West who disagree (despite usually still feasting on meat) just for perspective.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Some ideas for Mahler playlists:

1. The Semi-Symphonies
(Movements that on their own last more than 25 minutes)

2. Slow movements

3. Ländlers

4. Solo vocal movements

5. Choir movements

6. Huge emotion

7. Special orchestral colours


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Deleted..........


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Referring to the movements I chose from symphonies 5-7: I have always thought those three are in fact the same symphony. And what a magnificent symphony it is starting with the first movement of the fifth and ending with the last movement of the 6th and having some beautiful nachtmusik and slow movements in between. I would still maybe have to pick a scherzo from somewhere… Hmm. 

So here is my second playlist:

*Mahler: Symphony no. 5-7*

I Trauermarsch (from the 5th)
II Adagietto (From the 5th)
III Nachtmusik Andante Amoroso (From the 7th)
IV Andante Moderato (From the 6th)
V Finale (From the 6th)

Lets call this a creative solution! I will put this symphony no. 5-7 to a test. 1 hour 27 minutes. 

Edit: I listened to it with 6 movements with 2 nachtmusikcs and 2 were too much, so I left only one!

Edit 2: Excellent symphony, this Mahler: Symphony no. 5-7! Competes with the 2nd, 3rd, and 9th. This was a necessary step for me. For now, I will enjoy this music in this Frankenstein form.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Referring to the movements I chose from symphonies 5-7: I have always thought those three are in fact the same symphony. And what a magnificent symphony it is starting with the first movement of the fifth and ending with the last movement of the 6th and having some beautiful nachtmusik and slow movements in between. I would still maybe have to pick a scherzo from somewhere… Hmm.
> 
> So here is my second playlist:
> 
> ...


I much prefer the finale of the 7th to the 6th. The finale of the 6th just doesnt work for me. i do like the first movement a lot though


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> I much prefer the finale of the 7th to the 6th. The finale of the 6th just doesnt work for me. i do like the first movement a lot though


Have you tried the finale of the 6th by Barbirolli? That was a revelation for me. Also in my opinion, there is more artistic insight and craftmanship invested in the finale of the 6th than in the finales of the 5th or 7th. The first movements of either 6 or 7 I do not care for whereas the 1st movement of the 5th is a magnificent masterpiece of western art music.

Yeah, I am happy to have made this new combination symphony!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

You still haven't answered which of the two Barbirolli 6ths you have, the studio Warner/EMI or the live performance from the Proms on Testament. Even though they were done only a few days apart, they do differ and IMO, the live is definitely the better of the two.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> You still haven't answered which of the two Barbirolli 6ths you have, the studio Warner/EMI or the live performance from the Proms on Testament. Even though they were done only a few days apart, they do differ and IMO, the live is definitely the better of the two.


I have a studio version, I think. "Great recordings of the century."


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Have you tried the finale of the 6th by Barbirolli? That was a revelation for me. Also in my opinion, there is more artistic insight and craftmanship invested in the finale of the 6th than in the finales of the 5th or 7th. The first movements of either 6 or 7 I do not care for whereas the 1st movement of the 5th is a magnificent masterpiece of western art music.
> 
> Yeah, I am happy to have made this new combination symphony!


This may be sacreligous but i dont normally listen to multiple performances of the same piece. I agree the first movement of the 5th is fantastic. I like the first movement of 6 because it has memorable themes ( of course thats not the only thing that matters!) I just find the finale of the 7th more interesting than the 6th


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> This may be sacreligous but i dont normally listen to multiple performances of the same piece. I agree the first movement of the 5th is fantastic. I like the first movement of 6 because it has memorable themes ( of course thats not the only thing that matters!) I just find the finale of the 7th more interesting than the 6th


If you created a list of the Mahler movements you care for and left out the stuff you don't like, what would the playlist be like?

Mahler himself required of other conductors of his music that they should do whatever they can to enhance the music. That is precisely what I am doing as well by trying to present the music in a most favourable and acceptable light.

I do have a feeling not many have the courage to recognize the problem of Mahler's inconsistency. There are true gems, but there is also some bad stuff that Mahler would have gotten rid of or changed had he had the time to gain more perspective. He would have waited for the more inspired ideas, for sure, and not written so much "let's elaborate my previous stuff" -kind of material.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ I couldn't disagree more! As to the mix-and-match, Mahler may have wanted conductors to use their artistic instincts regarding interpretations but that is a long way from mixing symphonies.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> Some ideas for Mahler playlists:
> 
> 1. The Semi-Symphonies
> (Movements that on their own last more than 25 minutes)
> ...


I guess I'm from the wrong generation for playlists in the modern sense, but did Mahler not create his own playlists of movements and called them Symphonies


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> I do have a feeling not many have the courage to recognize the problem of Mahler's inconsistency. There are true gems, but there is also some bad stuff that Mahler would have gotten rid of or changed had he had the time to gain more perspective. He would have waited for the more inspired ideas, for sure, and not written so much "let's elaborate my previous stuff" -kind of material.


I do have a feeling that you are for some reason trying to project your personal taste as a relative newcomer to Mahler into something the composer himself might have done. This seems to be without any factual basis. 
After and apart from the 1st, all revisions Mahler did were minor and usually only concerning instrumentation (and the notorious order of scherzo and andante in the 6th, swapping movements within one piece being about the mildest revision possible...). He had a job as a conductor, he didn't need to meet deadlines or sell compositions quickly like 18th century composers. There is no reason whatsoever he might have finished symphonies in a way he knew not to be as good as he could and hoped to revise them (up to replacing whole movements) later on, because he never did it past his earlier works.

There are composers with far more serious revisions (as well as more serious quality/consistency problems, IMO), like Bruckner or Sibelius. Do you feel like re-shuffling their symphonies into "playlists" as well?


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Malx said:


> I guess I'm from the wrong generation for playlists in the modern sense, but did Mahler not create his own playlists of movements and called them Symphonies





Kreisler jr said:


> I do have a feeling that you are for some reason trying to project your personal taste as a relative newcomer to Mahler into something the composer himself might have done. This seems to be without any factual basis.
> After and apart from the 1st, all revisions Mahler did were minor and usually only concerning instrumentation (and the notorious order of scherzo and andante in the 6th, swapping movements within one piece being about the mildest revision possible...). He had a job as a conductor, he didn't need to meet deadlines or sell compositions quickly like 18th century composers. There is no reason whatsoever he might have finished symphonies in a way he knew not to be as good as he could and hoped to revise them (up to replacing whole movements) later on, because he never did it past his earlier works.
> 
> There are composers with far more serious revisions (as well as more serious quality/consistency problems, IMO), like Bruckner or Sibelius. Do you feel like re-shuffling their symphonies into "playlists" as well?


I agree to both and I ask whether putting singleton movements to a playlist could be near to breaking gold teeth out of dead bodies, where the question is how to appreciate the person?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Thank you for your comments! I feel no need to further advance the playlist thinking.

But please give me an honest answer: do you think for example the 2nd Movement of Symphony no. 5 is good?

Do you honestly think any of the symphonies 5-7 individually is as good as the speculative symphony I created with my ”playlist?”

Mahler: Symphony no. 5-7

I Trauermarsch (from the 5th)
II Adagietto (From the 5th)
III Nachtmusik Andante Amoroso (From the 7th)
IV Andante Moderato (From the 6th)
V Finale (From the 6th)

If the answer to both questions is an honest yes, good on you! 

Is it impossible to understand what I am aiming at with that playlist of mine, even if you do not accept my methods? Think of the music.

I have never felt like this with another composer. Mahler’s constructions in symphonies 5-7 I just cannot accept because it is showing a lot of good material in a bad light. And that is a shame. Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 9 — no need to edit and combine.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Those are just your opinions with which I strongly disagree, however whatever works for you, just don't make it seem that they are generally accepted views ... they aren't. 

And no, the playlist idea, particularly that combination, makes no sense to me, musically, artistically, emotionally or any other way. I feel strongly that Mahler knew what he was doing.

P.S. Why don't you read one of the Mahler books, particularly Henry-Louis de La Grange.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> Those are just your opinions with which I strongly disagree, however whatever works for you, just don't make it seem that they are generally accepted views ... they aren't.
> 
> And no, the playlist idea, particularly that combination, makes no sense to me, musically, artistically, emotionally or any other way. I feel strongly that Mahler knew what he was doing.
> 
> P.S. Why don't you read one of the Mahler books, particularly Henry-Louis de La Grange.


Actually I was surprised to read that my picks: 2, 3 and 9 are all on the top ten BBC list of best symphonies, voted by conductors. And I have read some other professional rankings, too, with similar results. Certainly there is something on those three that in 5-7 there is not? Just pointing that I am not as alone as you might think. Karajan considered symphony no. 6 kapellmeistermusik etc.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

No doubt you can find lists showing just about any combination you want, also probably at least one conductor who feels that way about any given symphony.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> No doubt you can find lists showing just about any combination you want, also probably at least one conductor who feels that way about any given symphony.


It seems that you are irritated that I am seemingly aiming at some objectivity with my play lists. You seem to emphasize in everything that it is just my opinions. Well, isn't it also just an opinion that there is nothing ever wrong with Mahler music or that symphonies 5-7 are perfect and that my playlists are stupid?

I created this thread as a solution to some continuing problems I have had with some of this composer symphonies. I have all the right in the world to aim at as much objectivity as I want.

I do not care about the idea that nothing could be said about music other than just opinions. In your world Twinkle twinkle little star is as great a composition as the Resurrection symphony because it is just opinions. You really want that us music listeners should never say anything else than "I like this" or "I don't like this"? All other evaluations should be thrown to bin. That is just ridiculous.

Thanks to Kreisler for arguing that there was no lack of perspective or lack of time invested in Mahler's output and that everything is as it should be in the symphonies.

Let's put an end to this thread for it is too much for some to bear. I will keep
my playlists to myself from now on. No problem! Let us all hail the perfection in Mahler and reduce our musical expression to "I like this" and "I don't like this".

This thread is a failure because it offends people which was not my point at all. My point was constructive and solutions-seeking and honest.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> In your world Twinkle twinkle little star is as great a composition as the Resurrection symphony because it is just opinions. You really want that us music listeners should never say anything else than "I like this" or "I don't like this"? All other evaluations should be thrown to bin. That is just ridiculous.


What I don't appreciate is someone 'putting words in my mouth", attributing things I have neither said nor implied. If the playlists work for you then as I already indicated, that's your business, go for it, just don't try to rationalize it as being a generally accepted view.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> What I don't appreciate is someone 'putting words in my mouth", attributing things I have neither said nor implied. If the playlists work for you then as I already indicated, that's your business, go for it, just don't try to rationalize it as being a generally accepted view.


Of course my playlists are not a generally accepted view on the matter. How could I possible make that kind of claim when this is the first time this idea has been suggested? It seems to me, you are putting words in my mouth.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> But please give me an honest answer: do you think for example the 2nd Movement of Symphony no. 5 is good?


Yes!! It's awesome, a perfect follow-up to the Trauermarsch....sets up the Finale brilliantly....



> Do you honestly think any of the symphonies 5-7 individually is as good as the speculative symphony I created with my "playlist?"


Yes, I do!! Mahler 5 and 6 are masterpieces, great symphonies, just as Mahler composed them....I don't get this weird "mix and match" configuration.



> Mahler's constructions in symphonies 5-7 I just cannot accept because it is showing a lot of good material in a bad light.


 I'm sorry, I cannot begin to relate to that statement....

[


> And that is a shame. Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 9 - no need to edit and combine.


Same with 5 ,6, and 7...


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Yes!! It's awesome, a perfect follow-up to the Trauermarsch....sets up the Finale brilliantly....
> 
> Yes, I do!! Mahler 5 and 6 are masterpieces, great symphonies, just as Mahler composed them....I don't get this weird "mix and match" configuration.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Heck! My playlist symphony is what I enjoy and matches my taste, but I will keep on trying to believe that Mahler really knew what he was doing with these 3 symphonies. I will try to feel the magic and get myself in a convinced state. Thanks for the encouragement - because sometimes I feel that people just hail someone because people want to join the club and follow the herd.

We have a fairy tale of the Emperor without clothes, and admittedly that is what I have seen in some Mahler enthusiasm. Simon Rattle has said that Mahler enthusiasm was a generation thing. With all these brilliant talents like Bernstein praising the music from the top to bottom one feels disencouraged to state one's doubts.

Admittedly I still see some traces of Emperor without clothes when it comes to dealing with the utterly cool Mahler that all the cool people praise. I am more than happy if proven wrong.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> .... With all these brilliant talents like Bernstein praising the music from the top to bottom one feels disencouraged to state one's doubts.
> Admittedly I still see some traces of Emperor without clothes when it comes to dealing with the utterly cool Mahler that all the cool people praise. I am more than happy if proven wrong.


Don't worry about what others think or endorse....if the music appeals to you, great, if not, that's fine, too...you're under no obligation to conform to someone else's preferences.
Mahler is a major league, heavyweight composer....not all of his music appeals to everyone....I certainly have favorite movements, and other movements that don't reach me as much....
I think that Mahler reached his peak as a symphonist in Syms 5, 6, and esp 9 [one of the greatest works in all of music, imo] there's a structure, a concept, a drama which flows thru each work, like a great play or novel...we may not always hear it or apprehend it, the performers may not bring it to light, but ole Gustav knew what he was doing....the great composers always do - You'll know it when you hear it....


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> Don't worry about what others think or endorse....if the music appeals to you, great, if not, that's fine, too...you're under no obligation to conform to someone else's preferences.
> Mahler is a major league, heavyweight composer....not all of his music appeals to everyone....I certainly have favorite movements, and other movements that don't reach me as much....
> I think that Mahler reached his peak as a symphonist in Syms 5, 6, and esp 9 [one of the greatest works in all of music, imo] there's a structure, a concept, a drama which flows thru each work, like a great play or novel...we may not always hear it or apprehend it, the performers may not bring it to light, but ole Gustav knew what he was doing....the great composers always do - You'll know it when you hear it....


That idea of a novel might be the key. It is just that in my ears the music needs to sound good and have some sort of direction and profile all the time. The 2nd Movement of the fifth is just a poorly put-together extension based on the first movement without any original idea. Same applies basically to the 2nd Movement of the 6th - it even starts with the exact same marching gesture as the 1st Movement.

In my musical world, a composition of a piece of music should always rather show the strength of the composer and performer rather than a weakness of the composer or performer.

That is the key of my problem! Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 9 do not show any weaknesses (of repetition and lack of renewal of the material) because every movement has a high profile of their own and take the work forward. Whereas symphonies 5-7 show weakness by sounding the same from movement to movement and from symphony to symphony.

My playlist Symphony no. 5-7 eliminated the problems by finding the contrasting musical elements in the symphonies and thus creating a series of movements with a high profile both by themselves and in comparison to each other. It is also very Mahlerian in it's eclectism. And one is able to bear the devastating Finale (of the 6th) after the contrasts of all the slower and happier music in the middle. Also the slow movements from both 5 and 6 shine. And there is still great drama - from Funeral March to many kinds of human emotion and atmospheres, life as it is, so to speak - and then comes the relentless finale, devastation.

It sure is bold of me to create such a combination symphony but I am sure Mahler would have just laughed at me enthusiastically and said: "Go for it, you have a point there. Just don't forget the originals!" 

But enough of this babble of mine. We have a disagreement here but that is fine!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> But please give me an honest answer: do you think for example the 2nd Movement of Symphony no. 5 is good?


yes, it's probably my favorite movement from that symphony, certainly not a piece I ever found problematic (as I still find the finales of 1 and 2 and some other movements). Of course it is supposed to be taken together with the first funeral march (roughly grief + wrath/defiance) but it's a savage, violent outbreak rarely equalled (maybe some passages in the 6th and the 9th Rondo Burleske come close).



> Do you honestly think any of the symphonies 5-7 individually is as good as the speculative symphony I created with my "playlist?"


Of course. All are hugely superior without any doubt. 
I'd never voluntarily listen to your "playlist symphony"  
It has two movements that are not favorites but mainly make sense for me as contrasts in their original context (adagietto and 2nd Nachtmusik) in succession, thus ruining the contrasts. Also 4 slow(ish) movements follow each other at 1-4 and then we get an almost unrelated finale that makes little sense without the first movement of the 6th (one could debate "reducing" the 6th to 1- andante-finale). The playlist (obviously) has no arch, no reasonable contrasts or development and even the comparably loose (IMO) 7th symphony has far more of these.

The main improvement I can think of in any of 5-7 is the by now refuted (but common for most of the 20th century, so it's probably because I accustomed to it) order scherzo-andante in the 6th. I might be able to imagine some tightening up in very long movements in the 5th (scherzo) and 7th (finale) and I might vaguely miss a full scale slow movement in 5 and 7. But the adagietto works well in context and so do the moderately paced Nachtmusiken, so I certainly would not think it an improvement to insert the full scale andante from the 6th or the huge adagio from the 4th 

There is one field where I am sympathetic to "playlists" and have used programming a CD player (this was 25+ years ago) and that's song cycles. The only Mahler cycle where I think one should best listen to all in order is "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen" (and even here, I'd find it perfectly fine to perform or listen to only one or two of them). A case could be made for Kindertotenlieder but Rückert and Wunderhorn are loose collections, not cycles and I admit also to skipping/programming in the two long Schubert cycles.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I do agree to some extent that the 7th is not as "tightly" constructed as 5 and 6. And while I'd say that musically, 1-3 are similarly "loose" (always compared to the stringency of pieces like Beethoven's or Mahler's 5th, they are still not random suites) they might have enough of that Wunderhorn semi-programmatic tone poem aspects that they can be perceived as more coherent than the 7th. I don't know where that "song of night" title originates but the idea of a series of "nocturnes", some sinister, some pleasant with the finale as sunrise and bright morning has some appeal as there doesn't seem an obvious development/breakthrough/dramatic resolution over the 5 movements.

Nevertheless, even here I think that the particular movements are not in any way weaker than the pieces in 1-4, neither in "ideas" nor in elaboration, and if pressed, I'd say that 2 and 3 are not as consistent in quality as 7 although maybe more coherent because of their semi-programmatic narrative (although I really struggle to recognize this musically in the 3rd).


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> yes, it's probably my favorite movement from that symphony, certainly not a piece I ever found problematic (as I still find the finales of 1 and 2 and some other movements). Of course it is supposed to be taken together with the first funeral march (roughly grief + wrath/defiance) but it's a savage, violent outbreak rarely equalled (maybe some passages in the 6th and the 9th Rondo Burleske come close).
> 
> Of course. All are hugely superior without any doubt.
> I'd never voluntarily listen to your "playlist symphony"
> ...


Naturally, if I were the symphonist here, there would have to be some revision made in order to make speculative symphony work. And the Nachtmusik should be replaced maybe with a sherzo in order to have more contrast and some development, for sure. But it would be ridiculous if I continued to defend my speculative symphony any further.

Thank you for having patience with me, and continuing to give arguments. I am happy to give both the 5th and the 6th a go with some new insight and updated attitude.

At the moment I feel that if I leave out the seventh from my listening, it would enhance the listening experience of both the 5th and the 6th. Because whenever I start to listen to the 7th, my immeadiate reaction is: "No more these same melodies, gestures and harmonic structures…" It is not the fault of the 5th or the 6th that there is the 7th. It is as if the lingering shadow of the 7th affects my listening of the sixth in a negative way, because of the similarities.

Which movement from the 5th or the 6th would you suggest in the place of the Nachtmusik? Play with me this much!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Some update done! Thanks, Kreisler! 

Mahler: Symphony no. 5-6

I Trauermarsch (from the 5th)
II Adagietto (From the 5th)
III Scherzo (From the 5th)
IV Andante Moderato (From the 6th)
V Finale (From the 6th)


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