# Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 3 in C Minor, Op. 37



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Recently I decided to begin with piano concertos since I just explored the 5 greatest violin concertos by general consensus (Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn & Sibelius). Anyway I decided to start with Beethoven, and specifically his 3rd Piano Concerto, no idea why. After listening to his third I also listened to his 1st and 2nd (I think I’m going to listen to his 4th and 5th tomorrow) and I definitely prefer the 3rd. It also sounds more like Beethoven than the first 2 (case in point, the last note of the 2nd movement being very loud even though before there was a very relaxing mood going on, as though he was waking us up for the 3rd movement, which btw has a very good melody, one that’s been stuck in my head all evening). Anyway I noticed there wasn’t a thread on this particular concerto and I was wondering what are your thoughts on this concerto? Do you feel like it’s overshadowed by his 4th and 5th concertos? Do you prefer it over his later concertos and if you do why? And of course any recordings that you like you can recommend. I have personally picked Fleisher/Szell as my reference cycle since that seems to be the most recommended cycle


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## John Zito (Sep 11, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> Do you feel like it's overshadowed by his 4th and 5th concertos?


Probably, and not without reason, but it's still great. The first and third movements might feature my all-time favorite codas.

Fleisher/Szell is my reference as well, but I also love Rudolf Serkin (with Bernstein on Sony and Kubelik on Orfeo). For period instruments, I enjoy Ronald Brautigam.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

4 and 5 are better IMHO, but 3 is great and so is 1 (which was actually written after '2'). 

Check out Parrahia/Haitink - lush and majestic.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Yes, Perahia/Haitink is a real winner. The first movement coda is magical.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Add this one ofRichter with Sanderling to the above


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Thanks for the recommendations, I will be checking them out once I know the piece and the fleisher recording a little better so I will be able to compare them better. And tonight I’m going to listen to his 4th and 5th to see what all the fuss is about


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

My reference version for the piano concertos is Kempff/Leitner, 1961, DGG. There's an earlier Kempff in mono with van Kempen conducting also. Van Cliburn recorded No. 3 with Eugene Ormandy I believe. Szell/Fleisher made some good Brahms recordings, so I'll have to check out their Beethoven. For more modern sound, Krystian Zimerman recorded it with Leonard Bernstein in 1989, shortly before Bernstein's death; and there is a much more recent Zimerman recording with Simon Rattle from 2020 during the pandemic; I have to listen to these before I can comment on them. Oh and there are two Pollini recordings I'm aware of: with Karl Böhm in 1977, and with Claudio Abbado in 1992.

Aside from the Van Cliburn recording I mentioned, these are all taken from cycles of all five concertos (Bernstein died before Nos. 1 and 2 could be recorded, but Zimerman finished the cycle by conducting from the keyboard himself). So it doesn't appear to be that common as a standalone item. It's a work I like but I do think that it is overshadowed by No. 4 and especially by No. 5. Nonetheless it has been recorded many times and perhaps deserves some more attention!

One last note: Daniel Barenboim did the cycle in 1967 under Otto Klemperer with the New Philharmonia Orchestra. I also found this recent recording, which has a picture of Barenboim conducting from the keyboard: https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/...no-concerto-no-3-barenboim-visual-album-11959. I don't know what a "visual album" is but I guessing it's just a videotaped performance? Anyway this might be interesting, or it might not, I've no idea.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Lewis Belholavek and the BBC SO recordings of the 5 are my current 'go to ' listens.....


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RogerWaters said:


> 4 and 5 are better IMHO, but 3 is great and so is 1 (which was actually written after '2').
> 
> Check out Parrahia/Haitink - lush and majestic.


I think 4 is interesting. I don't like 5 much, by turns bombastic and sentimental. I like 1 and 3 most, but it took me a while to find a performance of 3 which made it feel like music worth spending time with -- that performance was Gulda's with Mario Rossi. IMO that live recording captures a special concert event, both piano player and orchestra were in a good frame of mind for making music together.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Barenboim’s version withKlemperer is interesting n spite of K conducting the introduction at about half the speed they finally settle on!

Annie Fischer with Frisian is magical.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

I never cared much about #3, with its "tragic" key of C minor, but with very little actual tragedy. Just compare it to Mozart's concerto in the same key, which probably served as a model for Beethoven (see the similarities between the thematic material), but which is a much more gripping and emotionally satisfying work.

My ranking of the concertos: 4 - 5 - 1 - 3 - 2


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

RobertJTh said:


> I never cared much about #3, with its "tragic" key of C minor, but with very little actual tragedy. Just compare it to Mozart's concerto in the same key, which probably served as a model for Beethoven (see the similarities between the thematic material), but which is a much more gripping and emotionally satisfying work.
> 
> My ranking of the concertos: 4 - 5 - 1 - 3 - 2


Just because a concerto is in a minor key does it need to be tragic? Can't it have memorable melodies and great orchestral and piano writing and just stand on its own?


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

My reference set is Fleisher/Szell/Cleveland. I just sense a "grandeur" that is so often missing on other recordings. As for modern/digital, I have Uchida/Kurt Sanderling/Concertgebuow, BRSO. I like that but I still prefer Fleischer/Szell. A one off that I like is Till Fellner/Kent Nagano/Orchestre Symphonies DC Montreal which I really do like. I also have Barry Douglass/MacKerras/SCO(3,4,5)which are a bit leaner and as close to HIP that i would like to go. I have a few single cds but those tend to be my go to recordings. Between the two complete cycles I have and other single recordings of the various concertos I feel that I am "set" and just don't have a desire or need to add more which really would be just more duplication. 
I tend to go a few months between listening to the LvB piano concertos but when I pull one out I end up listening to all 5. I have no favorites or rankings.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> Just because a concerto is in a minor key does it need to be tragic? Can't it have memorable melodies and great orchestral and piano writing and just stand on its own?


Maybe "tragic" is the wrong word here, what I was trying to say is that in the classic era of Haydn and Mozart the use of a minor key was something special, a rare and deliberate choice to make a piece stand apart from other pieces in the genre, whether it be symphony, concerto or chamber music. Mozart's 2 minor key PC's are great examples of music setting a mood (be it tragic, passionate, depressed or heroic) that would be impossible to achieve using a major key.
So listening to Beethoven's PC #3 and expecting that same uniqueness makes it a rather disappointing experience.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I feel that the concepts of what a minor key means represent expectations/anticipations on the part of the listener rather than any reality.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

About a quartet of Scarlatti's sonatas were minor key; there are about 400 pieces by J S Bach with a minor key and about 200 by CPE Bach; about half of Louis Couperin's pieces are minor key; there are about 200 minor key pieces by Haydn; and there are over 400 minor key pieces by Schubert.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

RobertJTh said:


> Maybe "tragic" is the wrong word here, what I was trying to say is that in the classic era of Haydn and Mozart the use of a minor key was something special, a rare and deliberate choice to make a piece stand apart from other pieces in the genre, whether it be symphony, concerto or chamber music. Mozart's 2 minor key PC's are great examples of music setting a mood (be it tragic, passionate, depressed or heroic) that would be impossible to achieve using a major key.
> So listening to Beethoven's PC #3 and expecting that same uniqueness makes it a rather disappointing experience.


I get what you mean, but I try to listen to Beethoven from a modern perspective, not from a perspective from 1785. Beethoven wasn't one to follow the rules and I love him for that. I also love Mozart and Haydn btw, just not for the same reasons. I feel like we have enough of enormous minor/special/tragic pieces from Beethoven, although it might not be a piano concerto or violin concerto. I still really like Beethoven's 3rd piano concerto for because it sounds very much like Beethoven to me, and that's a very good thing


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RobertJTh said:


> makes it a rather disappointing experience.


I'd rather describe it as "different". It's just that Mozart is "Salzburgian" in style (ie. youtube.com/watch?v=8LuSHOEscR8 , "Hosanna in excelsis" @1:48) -Beethoven doesn't have to do that, to sound "heroic" in a way Mozart doesn't. I think Beethoven (ex. in Op.131, Op.132, and Haydn in his Op.76 No.6) has what Mozart doesn't have, in expression, in terms of horizontal sense of harmony.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think this concerto is often played too grand, slowish and "tragic" (although it is good enough to work with different approaches). It's a dramatic, energetic, youthful piece, actually very different from Mozart's in the same key. The finale is rather humorous. 
My favorite recordings are probably Rubinstein/Toscanini, Serkin/Bernstein, Ashkenazy/Solti (probably the most massive, almost brutal orchestral contribution).


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Kreisler jr said:


> I think this concerto is often played too grand, slowish and "tragic" (although it is good enough to work with different approaches). It's a dramatic, energetic, youthful piece, actually very different from Mozart's in the same key. The finale is rather humorous.
> My favorite recordings are probably Rubinstein/Toscanini, Serkin/Bernstein, Ashkenazy/Solti (probably the most massive, almost brutal orchestral contribution).


What do you think about the Fleisher/Szell recording if you have listened to it?


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

The third is definitely my favourite Beethoven piano concerto. The first two are nice but influenced by Mozart. The fourth is great except for the disastrous second movement. The fifth is thundering Beethoven without delicacy and nice melodies. It has a rigid structure.
The third has none of these deficiencies and is therefore near perfect. When I talk with my peers they tend to prefer the fourth, but i do not agree with them.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I don't know the Fleisher/Szell (only their 5th which is good although IMO not quite as great as its reputation but I could never be bothered to get the others). There are so many recordings, I own or have listened to about 15 of them. Another favorite although more conventional is Kovacevich/Davis. Argerich/Abbado is let down a bit by small scale conducting, IIRC. But in general it's music I rarely listen to nowadays because I heard it so often since my teenage days.


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## marlow (11 mo ago)

Kovacevich / Davis

Kempff / van Kempan

Kempff / Leitner

Graffmann

Ashkenazy / Solti

Fleisher / Szell

Serkin / Bernstein

Serkin / Ozawa 

Argerich / Abaddo

Richter / Sanderling

Perahia / Haitink

I’m sure I have more. Used to play it myself but not quite as well as the above. Foolishness of youth!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Personally, I think Solomon's recording with Menges and the Philharmonia is special. The slow movement is transcendent. When I first heard it, I got so caught up into the moment that I had to tell myself to breathe. He does the same thing with Van Beinum and the Concertgebouw.


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## Holden4th (Jul 14, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> Personally, I think Solomon's recording with Menges and the Philharmonia is special. The slow movement is transcendent. When I first heard it, I got so caught up into the moment that I had to tell myself to breathe. He does the same thing with Van Beinum and the Concertgebouw.


I'm listening to this now and couldn't agree more.

Rubinstein/Toscanini - surely not? But yes, it did happen and what's more it's in the big AR box I own. How did I miss that one?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Supposedly Rubinstein/Toscanini didn't get along very well at the first rehearsal but eventually it worked out fine for the actual recording. Neither of them were young then but they had more fire than many youngsters. In the older Rubinstein collection from the late 1990s this was coupled with to similarly lively sonatas (op.31/3 and 57) from the 1940s.

I think it was also the Beethoven concerto Gould played most frequently when he was still playing concerts. I only know the studio recording (with Bernstein, slow, but one of the few slow versions I still find interesting) but there are several live/bootlegs, among them one with Karajan/Berlin.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I really love the 3rd and 4th Piano Concertos by Beethoven.


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## Fredrikalansson (Jan 29, 2019)

For me, the third concerto is built on the play of light and shadow; hence, the minor key but the lack of "tragedy" noted by others. I find Leif Over Andsnes captures this quality beautifully. It probably helps that he conducts as well and is able to draw the same effect from the orchestra.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

This is my favorite of Beethoven's piano concertos, and my favorite performance is this one:






I also like Zimerman's...

I think it's certainly true to say it's not classically "tragic" in tone. Actually, I think the emotional nuance and range is part of what makes it stand apart for me - the first movement moving between stern and a kind of mischievous euphoria, the beautiful serenity of the second movement, and the frenetic third movement - none of the others come close for me.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

mossyembankment said:


> This is my favorite of Beethoven's piano concertos, and my favorite performance is this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like your description, have you listened to Fleisher/Szell?


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

EvaBaron said:


> I really like your description, have you listened to Fleisher/Szell?


no, I'll check it out, thanks!


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

justekaia said:


> The third is definitely my favourite Beethoven piano concerto. The first two are nice but influenced by Mozart. The fourth is great except for the disastrous second movement. The fifth is thundering Beethoven without delicacy and nice melodies. It has a rigid structure.
> The third has none of these deficiencies and is therefore near perfect. When I talk with my peers they tend to prefer the fourth, but i do not agree with them.


No melodies in Beethovens 5th Concerto? Uh really ?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I love 3 and 5, so exciting pieces for the pianist. I prefer 
Cliburn and Serkin ( older version) on Sony


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

golfer72 said:


> No melodies in Beethovens 5th Concerto? Uh really ?


Is there a difference between a melody and a nice melody? Is there a difference between a putt and a nice putt?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> Recently I decided to begin with piano concertos since I just explored the 5 greatest violin concertos by general consensus (Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn & Sibelius). Anyway I decided to start with Beethoven, and specifically his 3rd Piano Concerto, no idea why. After listening to his third I also listened to his 1st and 2nd (I think I’m going to listen to his 4th and 5th tomorrow) and I definitely prefer the 3rd. It also sounds more like Beethoven than the first 2 (case in point, the last note of the 2nd movement being very loud even though before there was a very relaxing mood going on, as though he was waking us up for the 3rd movement, which btw has a very good melody, one that’s been stuck in my head all evening). Anyway I noticed there wasn’t a thread on this particular concerto and I was wondering what are your thoughts on this concerto? Do you feel like it’s overshadowed by his 4th and 5th concertos? Do you prefer it over his later concertos and if you do why? And of course any recordings that you like you can recommend. I have personally picked Fleisher/Szell as my reference cycle since that seems to be the most recommended cycle


Clearly it’s overshadowed by the 5th in the sense of reception. I’m not sure there is any other meaningful sense of »overshadowed » I like the 4th very much, and the 1st. It took me longer to get into the 3rd, which can sound bombastic to me. There was one performance which won me over more than any other, a live one with Gulda and Mario Rossi, just a magical concert caught well on record. I hear the 3rd as a classical style symphony, same genre as K491. There’s a story that Beethoven was inspired to write it after hearing K491 in fact.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Sorry for reviving my own thread but I just wanted to share something and thought this was the best thread to do it. It’s crazy because my favourite Beethoven piano concerto was the 3rd for very long and I had already listened to the 5th about five times and it just didn’t click for me. I listened to the 4th a lot more because I did like it but just not as much as the 3rd. So a few days ago I came across a video of Zimmerman and Bernstein performing the 5th piano concerto and I watched it and it was a surreal experience. I recognised all the themes and moments that I didn’t really pick up on before but suddenly now it was just amazing and jaw droppingly gorgeous but also very heroic. I couldn’t believe it but just by listening to it once after about 2 months it instantly became my favourite Beethoven piano concerto. And I listened yesterday again and it might be my favourite piano concerto in general. And I don’t think the performance that I originally listened to is at fault, it is Fleisher/Szell which is regarded as one of the best Emperors. Normally it never takes me this long to appreciate something that becomes a favourite. One or 2 times max and I normally know if I find something amazing or just nice or not at all. But I at least now know that even after listening to something more times than usual and still not liking it, there is always hope. Most of all I’m very happy to have ‘discovered’ such an amazing concerto!


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## Scherzi Cat (8 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> Recently I decided to begin with piano concertos since I just explored the 5 greatest violin concertos by general consensus (Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Mendelssohn & Sibelius).


I wonder where you got your "general consensus" on violin concertos? I would not argue with them - they are all great. Maybe you should start with the "general consensus" for piano concertos. It would more likely include Beethoven's 5th PC than his 3rd. The other 4 IMHO would be Tchaikovsky 1, Rachmaninov 2, Schumann, and Mozart 20. But it's very hard to limit it to five and my choices might change daily.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Scherzi Cat said:


> I wonder where you got your "general consensus" on violin concertos? I would not argue with them - they are all great. Maybe you should start with the "general consensus" for piano concertos. It would more likely include Beethoven's 5th PC than his 3rd. The other 4 IMHO would be Tchaikovsky 1, Rachmaninov 2, Schumann, and Mozart 20. But it's very hard to limit it to five and my choices might change daily.


I am pretty sure that Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Brahms, Mendelsohn are the most popular, most played/recorded violin concertos. Sibelius is at least a very good candidate for the next, together with Bruch' g minor, maybe Mozart 5th, or one of Prokofiev's.
For piano I also think that Tchaikovsky 1, Rach 2, Beethoven 5 are at the top; the Grieg might be even more popular than Schumann. I think that no single Mozart concerto dominates sufficiently to get to the top 5, and I'd think that K 467 or 488 are more popular than 466.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

Scherzi Cat said:


> I wonder where you got your "general consensus" on violin concertos? I would not argue with them - they are all great. Maybe you should start with the "general consensus" for piano concertos. It would more likely include Beethoven's 5th PC than his 3rd. The other 4 IMHO would be Tchaikovsky 1, Rachmaninov 2, Schumann, and Mozart 20. But it's very hard to limit it to five and my choices might change daily.


General consensus as in the most popular among audiences and soloists. And I have already listened to the general consensus for piano concertos, with my favourites being Grieg, rach 2 and Beethoven 5. I also love Shostakovich’s 2nd, the first ever piano concerto that I listened to


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Brendel/Rattle did a fine Fourth concerto (Wiener Philharmoniker) from what I recall; their Third might also be good but I don't specifically remember. If you like Brendel, you're in luck; he also did a cycle with Levine and a cycle with Haitink. I think the lighter "classical" style of Brendel might lend itself well to this concerto also. Curious to hear people's thoughts on Weissenberg/Karajan, which I haven't listened to but might out of curiosity. There are also two cycles played by Mitsuko Uchida (one with Kurt Sanderling, the other with Rattle). I enjoyed Fleisher/Szell.


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