# Ultrasonic 'mosquitoes' vs. teenage loiterers



## Sid James

I put this here as it's news, but not strictly concerning music (but sort of, some members here would consider this to be_ music_, but that's another story).

Today in the news here, there are reports of *ultrasonic tones *being piped around areas where teenagers congregate to ward them off doing things like vandalism. This is occuring in Western Australia.

These tones can only be heard by people under 25. They are described as being very annoying and high frequency like mosquitoes.

Proponents of this - eg. business owners or school authorities where youths hang out after dark - say that they are just protecting their property from potential vandalism and the safety/comfort of the majority of people who use these facilities.

Civil liberties groups say it's an infringement of civil liberties.

I could not find a report on Western Australia, but found THIS report from Canada in 2008.

So, is this kind of thing being done around your neck of the woods. What do you think? We've had discussions about this before, but to do with classical music (or crooners, or jazz, etc.) being piped around these types of areas, not sounds specifically designed to ward off youths & teenagers.


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## Couchie

Interesting - they used to play classical music for the same purpose.


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## mamascarlatti

Couchie said:


> Interesting - they used to play classical music for the same purpose.


They still do in a passage between two streets that I often use. In fact they play opera. I have fun trying to guess the tenor.


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## Sid James

^^Yes, I said it in my OP, they also played (at a place here) crooners like Barry Manilow that teens find horrible & cheesy. But this is controversial as it targets people under 25 - only they have the fine hearing to be able to hear this ultrasonic noise (I would guess maybe dogs would be able to hear it too, their hearing is much more sensitive than humans').

Ironic that when I was searching for an article on this, I came across _Ultrasonic Mosquito Repeller_ & other bug repellent devices. They emit sounds to drive away the bugs. But in this case, sounds are being used to drive away humans!


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## samurai

mamascarlatti said:


> They still do in a passage between two streets that I often use. In fact they play opera. I have fun trying to guess the tenor.


If I were still young and wild {both qualities long since gone} that would have been a lead pipe cinch to keep me away from your neighborhood!


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## mamascarlatti

samurai said:


> If I were still young and wild {both qualities long since gone} that would have been a lead pipe cinch to keep me away from your neighborhood!


A lot of people (not just young'uns) go through at a sharp trot looking rather hunted:lol:.


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## samurai

mamascarlatti said:


> A lot of people (not just young'uns) go through at a sharp trot looking rather hunted:lol:.


If that were me, I am quite sure that I would be looking *haunted *as well as hunted, especially if it's Wagner they are playing!


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## Guest

There is an electronic device that is supposed to keep away pests such as Rats, Mice, Cockroaches and the like by emitting high frequency sounds this may also work for the said purpose, I may see if they have a portable version


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## moody

Sid James said:


> ^^Yes, I said it in my OP, they also played (at a place here) crooners like Barry Manilow that teens find horrible & cheesy. But this is controversial as it targets people under 25 - only they have the fine hearing to be able to hear this ultrasonic noise (I would guess maybe dogs would be able to hear it too, their hearing is much more sensitive than humans').
> 
> Ironic that when I was searching for an article on this, I came across _Ultrasonic Mosquito Repeller_ & other bug repellent devices. They emit sounds to drive away the bugs. But in this case, sounds are being used to drive away humans!


There is very little difference between teenagers and bugs. But i would have thought that as it's in Australia it may actually be Avant Garde's music they are piping at the teenbugs.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> There is very little difference between teenagers and bugs. But i would have thought that as it's in Australia it may actually be Avant Garde's music they are piping at the teenbugs.


I did get several emails asking if they could use my music, but I declined the offer and told them off for treating juveniles like vermin. Anyway, it's a well known fact in _my_ age group that these "ultrasonic mosquitoes" _attract_ young people to the area.


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## Ukko

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I did get several emails asking if they could use my music, but I declined the offer and told them off for treating juveniles like vermin. Anyway, it's a well known fact in _my_ age group that these "ultrasonic mosquitoes" _attract_ young people to the area.


Sure. Whippersnappers are often foolish, but they ain't necessarily stupid. If you wear hearing protection, maybe you are fine ... and those [expletive] flies stay away.

[Some of you may be uninitiated. The reason many Aussies have muscular arms is _not_ because they lift a lot of beer mugs. It's the constant repetition of the Aussie Salute.]


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## elgar's ghost

Anything that deters anti-social behaviour is fine by me but most young loiterers are probably wearing MP3 earpieces anyway so they wouldn't hear it. If only something similar could be done about the often appalling and very repetitive noise pollution otherwise known as techno which thuds from the car stereos driven by spotty over-testosteroned oiks fantasising that they are from Compton or the Bronx.


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## Jaws

A high pitched whisle that starts once any noise reaches an annoying volume?


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## Moira

Sid James said:


> ^^Yes, I said it in my OP, they also played (at a place here) crooners like Barry Manilow that teens find horrible & cheesy. But this is controversial as it targets people under 25 - only they have the fine hearing to be able to hear this ultrasonic noise (I would guess maybe dogs would be able to hear it too, their hearing is much more sensitive than humans').
> 
> Ironic that when I was searching for an article on this, I came across _Ultrasonic Mosquito Repeller_ & other bug repellent devices. They emit sounds to drive away the bugs. But in this case, sounds are being used to drive away humans!


I was at the cafe at the theatre tonight. There are several theatres in the theatre complex. The show I was in ended early. The next show was due to come out. Management put the music on loud. We left. Old people respond just as predictably.


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## Sid James

I'm far from being a teenager, yet they played a snippet of these ultrasonic sounds on the radio, and I could hear it. They said only under 25's could hear it. Looks like some people might fall into the _firing line _of these annoying sounds. I know my hearing is very good, even for my age. & YES, it was very annoying sound, even for about the few seconds they played it.

So I think Barry Manilow is better, or ol' blue eyes, or any crooner like Tony Bennett. Just play that. Maybe some classical as well, I've heard that played at railway stations here. I remember hearing Vaughan Williams, which was kinda wierd in that context.

Agree with you fully, _elgars ghost_. I just hate it when people play music too loud in their car, like the windows in the house shake. I don't _share_ my music with them, so why are they_ sharing _it with me. Some people are just too _generous! _(not).


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## Guest

Actually I have a constant high pitched squeal in my head, after a while you get used to it.


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## PetrB

If you are out to annoy people in such a circumstance, one must be equitable and annoy everybody ~ They should continue to play the classical. Perhaps 20th century atonal music, though they'd have to pay a commission, LOL.

Then there is always waterboarding.... Playing Neil Diamond repeatedly was also cruel and unusual punishment used to break down the alleged terrorists held in Gitmo - that would work on me... as would an endless loop of the Pachelbel Canon....

Aw, what the hell, they could just gun them down and thin out the herd while upscaling the gene pool in one fell swoop.


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## Ukko

Andante said:


> Actually I have a constant high pitched squeal in my head, after a while you get used to it.


I have one of those. I can ignore it ... sometimes. Not often enough though, and of course one can't run away from it. Hence, I am insane.


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## Moira

I don't hear high pitched sounds. I hear proper voices. When they tell me to do BAD things, I poke them with an earbud. That keeps them quiet for a while because they don't like that.


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## Guest

Hilltroll72 said:


> I have one of those. I can ignore it ... sometimes. Not often enough though, and of course one can't run away from it. Hence, *I am insane*.


I have never been to Sane is it in France?


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## Sid James

PetrB said:


> If you are out to annoy people in such a circumstance, one must be equitable and annoy everybody ~ *They should continue to play the classical. Perhaps 20th century atonal music,* though they'd have to pay a commission, LOL...


You are betraying the _religio__n_ of Modernism by saying that! :lol: Utter heresy.



> ...
> Then there is always waterboarding.... Playing Neil Diamond repeatedly was also cruel and unusual punishment used to break down the alleged terrorists held in Gitmo - that would work on me... as would an endless loop of the Pachelbel Canon....
> ...


Seriously, I'd rather have Mr. Diamond than Pachelbel's _Canon_. At least Neil was not a _one hit wonder_, he had many hits. More variety than Pachelbel, at least in terms of _hits_.

...but maybe a sound of cannons firing would be better (old old joke). Cue Tchaikovsky's _1812 Overture_?


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## Philip

Sid James said:


> I'm far from being a teenager, yet they played a snippet of these ultrasonic sounds on the radio, and I could hear it. They said only under 25's could hear it. Looks like some people might fall into the _firing line _of these annoying sounds. I know my hearing is very good, even for my age. & YES, it was very annoying sound, even for about the few seconds they played it.


Was it FM radio...?


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## Sid James

^^Yep, it was FM.


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## joen_cph

The mentioned teenagers will probably seek revenge - raids in cars with full volume rap and hip-hop - a "civil war" of sound harassement thus started in that area, which actually seems spoiled and egotistical to me. Definitely not an inclusive or fruitful strategy for society-building.

There´s an old Danish film on the subject of neighbour conflicts, "Naboerne":


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## Philip

Sid James said:


> ^^Yep, it was FM.


The maximum audio frequency of FM radio is 15kHz, which isn't really "ultrasonic". A standard CRT television produces a hiss just below 16kHz, which most people can hear to some extent. The normal hearing range is 20Hz to 20kHz. A high pitch such as 17kHz or above will be very faint at normal volumes, unless they pump it at 100+ dB; while a lower pitch will be audible to the majority of people.

The concept seems is a bit flawed, and I'm not even sure if exposing people to this noise is actually safe. Looks like somebody saw a juicy business opportunity, while somebody else was hungry for control; my two least favourite kinds of people


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## moody

Andante said:


> Actually I have a constant high pitched squeal in my head, after a while you get used to it.


That's probably Composer of Avant Garde.


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> The mentioned teenagers will probably seek revenge - raids in cars with full volume rap and hip-hop - a "civil war" of sound harassement thus started in that area, which actually seems spoiled and egotistical to me. Definitely not an inclusive or fruitful strategy for society-building.
> 
> There´s an old Danish film on the subject of neighbour conflicts, "Naboerne":


Nonsense, all teenagers should be rounded up and kept in cages or shot on sight.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> Nonsense, all teenagers should be rounded up and kept in cages or shot on sight.


And where would TC be without me?


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## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> And where would TC be without me?


OK we could keep you as a mascot. By the way where has your girlfriend disappeared to?


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## joen_cph

> Nonsense, all teenagers should be rounded up and kept in cages or shot on sight.


An admirable clarity of thought. Are you a Tory ?


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## moody

joen_cph said:


> An admirable clarity of thought. Are you a Tory ?


I was, one does not vote for the socialists. But I now vote UKIP which is the anti European Union party.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> OK we could keep you as a mascot. By the way where has your girlfriend disappeared to?


We're not starting this again. She's not my girlfriend.


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## moody

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> We're not starting this again. She's not my girlfriend.


If you say so, but where is she ?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

moody said:


> If you say so, but where is she ?


A few suburbs to the east of where I live.


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## aleazk

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> We're not starting this again. She's not my girlfriend.


yeah, keep denying it. You know what they say, if you struggle, more quickly you will sink in the quicksand :lol::lol:... :tiphat:


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## Sid James

Philip said:


> The maximum audio frequency of FM radio is 15kHz, which isn't really "ultrasonic". A standard CRT television produces a hiss just below 16kHz, which most people can hear to some extent. The normal hearing range is 20Hz to 20kHz. A high pitch such as 17kHz or above will be very faint at normal volumes, unless they pump it at 100+ dB; while a lower pitch will be audible to the majority of people...


Well they played the noise on the radio to a guy they had on the phone with them, and he said he couldn't hear it (he was over 25). But I get your point, you obviously know about radio technology.



> ...
> The concept seems is a bit flawed, and I'm not even sure if exposing people to this noise is actually safe. Looks like somebody saw a juicy business opportunity, while somebody else was hungry for control; my two least favourite kinds of people


Well I don't think ultrasonic noise is the way to go. They should try other things first, like crooners, or classical or opera or whatever the loiterers don't like. Don't forget it's just businesses or school boards protecting their property from vandalism. Costs money to repair this stuff. Then burden on customers at the shop/mall and taxpayers of government which funds state run schools. Or any schools. The costs trickle down to YOU and ME. Ultimately.

There's a lot of hooning after dark in various carparks. It's like driving motorbikes or cars and doing burnouts (tyres skidding on the concrete). It's a culture, a youth culture, in many of our big cities. In any case, I think piping Barry Manilow, etc. has stopped or decreased this in many places. I think it's a good idea. I'm not sure ultrasonics are necessary.


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## Philip

Sid James said:


> Well they played the noise on the radio to a guy they had on the phone with them, and he said he couldn't hear it (he was over 25). But I get your point, you obviously know about radio technology.


Ha, that's even worst because most phones have a sampling rate of 8kHz or 16kHz, intended for voice only, with maximum audio frequencies of 4kHz and 8kHz, respectively.

I think it's funny that the Mosquito makers themselves advertise the device as "ultrasonic", when by definition, ultrasonic means outside the audible range, ie. 20kHz+... sounds like marketing B/S for an equally B/S product.


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## Guest

I apologize for going a bit off topic but do you think the pest controllers which are advertised to work on the same principle would actually work, the last couple of years we have been at war with the native Cockroach.


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## Moira

Andante said:


> I apologize for going a bit off topic but do you think the pest controllers which are advertised to work on the same principle would actually work, the last couple of years we have been at war with the native Cockroach.


I was thinking the same sort of thing although I don't currently have a cockroach problem, but living in an apartment block when one unit gets them all the units have them, even though the problem is not as severe as in coastal towns. I like to 'live green' so I do try the environment friendlier versions first. It's winter in South Africa now, and there is usually a rise in insect pests in summer, so if this works I may arm myself.


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## Sid James

Philip said:


> ...
> 
> I think it's funny that the Mosquito makers themselves advertise the device as "ultrasonic", when by definition, ultrasonic means outside the audible range, ie. 20kHz+... sounds like marketing B/S for an equally B/S product.


Well, could be they want to make a buck or whatever. Marketing hype is part of life now (unfortunately). Maybe the owners of places using these devices to deter young people congregating there and so on, they don't want to pay Barry Manilow or the estate of Frank Sinatra or whoever royalties. You never know. But often, things designed to save money end up backfiring and costing more.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Sid James said:


> I put this here as it's news, but not strictly concerning music (but sort of, some members here would consider this to be_ music_, but that's another story).
> 
> Today in the news here, there are reports of *ultrasonic tones *being piped around areas where teenagers congregate to ward them off doing things like vandalism. This is occuring in Western Australia.
> 
> These tones can only be heard by people under 25. They are described as being very annoying and high frequency like mosquitoes.
> 
> Proponents of this - eg. business owners or school authorities where youths hang out after dark - say that they are just protecting their property from potential vandalism and the safety/comfort of the majority of people who use these facilities.
> 
> Civil liberties groups say it's an infringement of civil liberties.
> 
> I could not find a report on Western Australia, but found THIS report from Canada in 2008.
> 
> So, is this kind of thing being done around your neck of the woods. What do you think? We've had discussions about this before, but to do with classical music (or crooners, or jazz, etc.) being piped around these types of areas, not sounds specifically designed to ward off youths & teenagers.


I think they should play classical music, which appears to work. Plus CM might sooth the minds of angry commuters at times frustrated with delays or just having a bad day. (Just my two cents, I don't take the train normally and might only do so once or twice a year here in Sydney for special reasons. I enjoy a train ride and it would be very nice to have CM played at the stations while waiting).


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## Sid James

I think a related issue is that teenagers and young people need places to hang out which are kind of neutral, or not linked to other things (like school, or shopping malls, or train stations, carparks, etc.).

Some councils here are building places where they can skateboard, specially designed skateboarding 'parks.' I think this is a good idea. Basically, okay if businesses don't want them around certain places, but then where will young people go? They need places to be with their kind and not impact on the daily business of adults. They need to socialise and have exercise or some activity.

So it's a complex issue.

The other thing is that at large train stations here, classical is played to move people on and provide a good atmosphere. It's contradictory but reading between the lines and seeing these places, that's the impression I get. However, it is not at every station. The other thing is that shopping malls and department stores do the same thing, eg. pipe out various types of music - mostly easy listening, eg. light classical or something_ neutral _- for similar reasons, and also to induce people to be in the relaxed vibe to shop, obviously.


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## Guest

When I was a teenager we had youth clubs, we could play table tennis, cook some tucker chat up the girls but *no booz* etc we had a dance once a week, but I suppose that would not be enough to day.


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## Sid James

Andante said:


> When I was a teenager we had youth clubs, we could play table tennis, cook some tucker chat up the girls but *no booz* etc we had a dance once a week, but I suppose that would not be enough to day.


Well no booze concerts and dance gigs are being done, have been for a while now. Esp. to attract under 18's. So maybe we're going back to that in some ways. I don't know how widespread it is, obviously not being in that age group, but I do hear of these things happening from time to time. It's promoted on radio sometimes (non classical radio, of course).


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## Sid James

Somewhat related issue so I put it here. Flying foxes - a native species of bat - were evicted a few days ago from Sydney's Botanic Gardens, by speakers playing loud noises. The reason is them damaging and destroying trees (some rare species of trees) that they lived in there. Extract below in italics from an article in _The Sydney Morning Herald _newspaper online.

_A mix of industrial noises, whistles and what sounded like the banging of saucepans was relayed from speakers on mobile buggies.

Within five minutes of the wake-up call, hundreds of bats were circling above the gardens.

''Normally you get a stream flying to the south and one to the east but they are not doing that,'' said Storm Stanford of Bat Watch Australia. ''You can see how confused their flight is and they are making a lot of noise. Normally it is silent.''

The hope is that the grey-headed flying fox will disappear into the Sydney night skies and never return._

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/a...-of-gardens-20120604-1zs7m.html#ixzz1x9ofwYNx


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