# Schubert's last 2 String Quartets or Beethoven's last 5?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I know most people will say Beethoven but I was listening to Schubert's last SQ and his genius shines through. To make that opening subject almost dominate the movement of over 20 minutes is outstanding and heartbreaking. Why couldn't he have been given another fives years, that's all? Imagine what he would have done? 

I say Beethoven but it is a close run thing; bit like the heights of Everest and K2.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Why leave out the Rosamunde quartet?


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Beethoven and it's not even close. And I love Schubert.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Schubert. Even though I love the Beethoven quartets.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

Beethoven. But it was a tough decision.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I too love Schubert. Is it true he never met Beethoven? I read an anecdote that he was in a tavern and Beethoven was the other side of the busy inn and Franz tried to pluck up courage to go and speak to him, but he never did, apparently. I also don't understand why he gets called an amateur composer, maybe in the same category as Czerny. Wasn't there some British musicologist who hated Schubert and wrote many articles explaining why. He even got death threats apparently.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Beethoven and it's not even close. And I love Schubert.


Stacking 5 quartets vs 2, it's surprising anyone here would pick Schubert at all.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Top five quartets from another place:

1 - Beethoven: #14 Op. 131 in C# minor
2 - Beethoven: #15 Op. 132 in A minor
3 - Schubert: #15 D. 887 in G
4 - Schubert: #14 in D minor "Death and the Maiden"
5 - Beethoven: #13 Op. 130 in B-flat (with Grosse Fuge)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Chronochromie said:


> Stacking 5 quartets vs 2, it's surprising anyone here would pick Schubert at all.


Quality over quantity?

For the same reason I would pick the 4 Brahms symphonies over the 9 Beethoven, 40+ Mozart or 100+ Haydn.

Not saying that the Beethoven quartets (or the mentioned symphonies) are not quality as well, but I prefer the Schubert quartets and the Brahms symphonies sufficiently more to choose them in spite of the lower number.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Purely from the point of view of enjoyment, the Schubert quartets for me. In terms of somehow trying to rank the two sets against each other, I haven't the foggiest. I'm not even sure it's possible to do so in any meaningful way.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Quality over quantity?
> 
> For the same reason I would pick the 4 Brahms symphonies over the 9 Beethoven, 40+ Mozart or 100+ Haydn.
> 
> Not saying that the Beethoven quartets (or the mentioned symphonies) are not quality as well, but I prefer the Schubert quartets and the Brahms symphonies sufficiently more to choose them in spite of the lower number.


I would pick any two of Beethoven's last five quartets over Schubert's two.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I would pick any two of Beethoven's last five quartets over Schubert's two.


We all have our personal preferences.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Beethoven no doubt about it! Schubert doesn't even comes close. 

And I'm not going to explain why because that will just result in some explanation that makes no sense at all, even to me. 

But it has to do with tension, Schubert just can't hold it as long as Beethoven.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> Beethoven no doubt about it! Schubert doesn't even comes close.
> 
> And I'm not going to explain why because that will just result in some explanation that makes no sense at all, even to me.
> 
> But it has to do with tension, Schubert just can't hold it as long as Beethoven.


Exactly! Beethoven's dramatic timing is the reason why I prefer his quartets (and the reason why he is my favorite composer). The way he introduces dissonances into the music, hints at resolution, then backs away from the promised resolution...his music generates a great deal of momentum and delayed gratification.

Schubert, on the other hand, wasn't aiming for a tension-based aesthetic. Schubert's music slips effortlessly from one key to another...you're there almost before you know it. Schubert's sense of grace and lyricism is sublime, but I personally prefer the way in which Beethoven dramatizes the process of modulation.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I was wondering does someone's preference for a particular composer, say Beethoven over Schubert, give value to that preference?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

beetzart said:


> I was wondering does someone's preference for a particular composer, say Beethoven over Schubert, give value to that preference?


By saying you prefer a composer, you're actually saying you prefer their music. So the answer has to be that the two are usually closely related.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Bettina said:


> Schubert's music slips effortlessly from one key to another...you're there almost before you know it. Schubert's sense of grace and lyricism is sublime, but I personally prefer the way in which Beethoven dramatizes the process of modulation.


Schubert has definitely something that Beethoven doesn't have. Schubert can put more feeling in one simple theme, to me that quality is more suited for shorter works like his wel known songs.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> Quality over quantity?
> 
> For the same reason I would pick the 4 Brahms symphonies over the 9 Beethoven, 40+ Mozart or 100+ Haydn.
> 
> Not saying that the Beethoven quartets (or the mentioned symphonies) are not quality as well, but I prefer the Schubert quartets and the Brahms symphonies sufficiently more to choose them in spite of the lower number.


Still unfair considering that their string quartets are some of their best works, but if you say 2 Schubert quartets or 5 Beethoven ones...it's, uh, a bit odd when you could easily do 3 and 3 from each.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

2 and 5, 3 and 3. It means nothing to me. I favor Schubert's string quartets.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I place Schubert's G Major String Quartet in a class by itself....but I also place the Beethoven A minor Quartet in a class by itelf too...and I also place Mendelssohn's A minor quartet in a class by itself also.

It's insane to have to choose in this way.

Play all of those in the OP as much as you fancy, and be grateful you weren't born 100 years before Beethoven and Schubert, assuming these are two of your favorite composers.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Bulldog said:


> 2 and 5, 3 and 3. It means nothing to me. I favor Schubert's string quartets.


And that's great! My point stands however.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Chronochromie said:


> Still unfair considering that their string quartets are some of their best works, but if you say 2 Schubert quartets or 5 Beethoven ones...it's, uh, a bit odd when you could easily do 3 and 3 from each.


I'm sorry, Chronochromie. I should have added Schubert's 13th as well. The last three are arguably his most important and I feel the 1st movement of the 15th is as close to Beethoven as he could have got but it is full of everything that is unique to Schubert, too.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> Schubert. Even though I love the Beethoven quartets.


I am with Art Rock.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Very tough call. I'd probably go with Beethoven because of the Grosse Fuge. At one time I disliked it, but now it's perhaps my favorite quartet (or part depending n how one looks at it).


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

hpowders said:


> I place Schubert's G Major String Quartet in a class by itself....but I also place the Beethoven A minor Quartet in a class by itelf too...and I also place Mendelssohn's A minor quartet in a class by itself also.
> 
> It's insane to have to choose in this way.
> 
> Play all of those in the OP as much as you fancy, and be grateful you weren't born 100 years before Beethoven and Schubert, assuming these are two of your favorite composers.


Haha, the deprivation view! They are up there as my favourite composers but I could have managed with Bach, Handel, and Scarlatti; if I knew no better. Well actually those three are enough for an entire lifetime these days without any further composers being added. 

I love Beethoven's 15th SQ, too. The ending of the first movement is particulalry special!


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

The Schubert quartets are masterpieces but the Beethoven is from a man who had lived such an intense and tormented life that his last quartets have such a universal resolution that they are more than the sum of their parts. Also Beethoven had the benefit of living for twenty five years longer than Schubert thus having much more musical weight behind his work. However, I still wouldn't want to live without either, so I wouldn't want to make a choice.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

beetzart said:


> I too love Schubert. Is it true he never met Beethoven? I read an anecdote that he was in a tavern and Beethoven was the other side of the busy inn and Franz tried to pluck up courage to go and speak to him, but he never did, apparently. I also don't understand why he gets called an amateur composer, maybe in the same category as Czerny. Wasn't there some British musicologist who hated Schubert and wrote many articles explaining why. He even got death threats apparently.


The fault lies with Schubert's non mastery of counterpoint (one of the most important elements of writing for four voices), he had only started taking counterpoint lessons the last year of his life. This is the main reason his quartets don't come close to the brilliance of Beethoven's (who had far surpassed mastery and was well on to bending the rules to his own will).

Don't get me wrong you did pick the finest examples of Schubert's quartet writing but his true masterpieces are to be found in his piano sonatas & songs (of which he was the undisputed master of this form, not even ole LvB could best him here).

When it comes to Beethoven's quartets, I don't know if any music in the history of mankind has come close to what Beethoven achieved with his late quartets, truly music from another world.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Chronochromie said:


> Why leave out the Rosamunde quartet?


Throw in the Quintet and I'd choose Schubert.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

jegreenwood said:


> Throw in the Quintet and I'd choose Schubert.


I would probably pick Schubert's Quintet over any chamber work from Beethoven, but I'd probably still go with Beethoven's late quartets over Schubert's late quartets plus the quintet. Of course, they're all simply sublime works so the choice is not impactful in any way.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Fugue Meister said:


> When it comes to Beethoven's quartets, I don't know if any music in the history of mankind has come close to what Beethoven achieved with his late quartets, truly music from another world.


Yes, they are quite sublime, yet many people will go through life never hearing a single note of them. Do they truly have some kind of value that is beyond our preference or comprehension?


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