# Did Schumann mean to use a Beethoven theme?



## Sondersdorf (Aug 5, 2020)

I was listening to Schumann's Davidsbundlertanze, Op. 6: No. 13. Wild und lustig, and was surprised to hear what sounded like Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 30 in E major, Op. 109 - III. Andante molto cantabile ed espressivo theme come floating out about a minute in.

I did a Google search to learn more about how this came about and came up with zilch. So, I am thinking 1) Schumann was well aware of what he was doing, or 2) it was unconscious, as it was certainly a well-known theme and there is a lot of other stuff going on in the piece that Schumann has to keep track of, or 3) it is just a coincidence.

They get mentioned together on the internet because Mitsuko Uchida has both of them posted:

Beethoven





Schumann, the quiet part at :55





I am not a lawyer for either Schumann or Beethoven or anything, just curious. I don't want this to become a "My Sweet Lord" thing. Or a "Stairway to Heaven" thing. Or, Richard Ashcroft/The Verve vs. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards thing. (Mick and Keith did the right thing in the end, btw.)


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Schumann loved Beethoven and referenced him in many works, notably the ending the first movement of Fantasie Op.17.

Schumann Fantasy 1st Movement

Beethoven An die ferne Geliebte No.6

And there are references in Kreisleriana as well:

Kreisleriana No.4

Beethoven Appassionata 3rd Movement

So to answer your question, I would really not be surprised if the reference was intentional.

After all, the dude wrote an (almost) entire set of variations on Beethoven!


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## Sondersdorf (Aug 5, 2020)

*Thanks*



chu42 said:


> Schumann loved Beethoven and referenced him in many works, notably the ending the first movement of Fantasie Op.17.


Thank you. I knew somebody on talkclassical would have some insight. Moreover, these are all wonderful pieces. I definitely need to pay more attention to the Beethoven song cycle.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Sondersdorf said:


> Thank you. I knew somebody on talkclassical would have some insight. *Moreover, these are all wonderful pieces. *I definitely need to pay more attention to the Beethoven song cycle.


Almost anything to do with Beethoven usually turns out wonderful.
Also thanks Chu24 for info.

Now I know why I am equally so fond of Beethoven and Schumann, there is a good connection between the two.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Axter said:


> Almost anything to do with Beethoven usually turns out wonderful.
> Also thanks Chu24 for info.
> 
> Now I know why I am equally so fond of Beethoven and Schumann, there is a good connection between the two.


Schumann is the wilder, fantastical, extension of Beethoven. Brahms is the refined and methodical extension of Schumann.

Of course they were both deeply unique in terms of style but this is the family tree if you're talking about connections. All three are among my favorite composers.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

chu42 said:


> Schumann is the wilder, fantastical, extension of Beethoven. Brahms is the refined and methodical extension of Schumann.
> 
> Of course they were both deeply unique in terms of style but this is the family tree if you're talking about connections. All three are among my favorite composers.


Same here, I like all three of them a lot plus Schubert as well, specially his later works.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

chu42 said:


> Schumann is the wilder, fantastical, extension of Beethoven. Brahms is the refined and methodical extension of Schumann. Of course they were both deeply unique in terms of style but this is the family tree if you're talking about connections. All three are among my favorite composers.


Agreed. I think the last movement of Brahms' 1st piano concerto has certain connections to Schumann. And I would add Mozart in the list of exemplary predecessors for Schumann and Liszt. I'm talking about K.475 and its "4-in-1 sonata cycle structure", where "confirmation of the tonic key is withheld until the very end".


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> Agreed. I think the last movement of Brahms' 1st piano concerto has certain connections to Schumann.


Not just certain connections, even a direct quote:

Brahms 1st Concerto 3rd Movement

Schumann Op.1 Opening




hammeredklavier said:


> And I would add Mozart in the list of exemplary predecessors for Schumann and Liszt. I'm talking about K.475 and its "4-in-1 sonata cycle structure", where "confirmation of the tonic key is withheld until the very end".


Mozart should be in the family tree of almost every Romantic composer, regardless of whether they composed for opera, piano, concerto, symphony, etc. There is hardly a Romantic composer who can claim they were not influenced by Mozart.


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