# Bach: Clavier-Ubung III (German Organ Mass)



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

J.S. Bach's _Clavier-Ubung III_ (otherwise known as the "German Organ Mass") is currently on the 41st tier of the Talk Classical Community's Favorite and Most Highly Recommended Works.

Wikipedia has a truly amazing article about this work, one of the finest analyses I have ever seen on Wikipedia- more like a full-fledged book.

The main questions of this thread are: *Do you like this work? Do you love it? Why? What do you like about it? Do you have any reservations about it?* And of course, what are your favorite recordings?

Taken as a whole as it ought to be, the "German Organ Mass" is in my top 5 of works from my favorite composer. I find it almost criminal that it seems to never be mentioned alongside the supreme masterpieces like the B Minor Mass, St. Matthew Passion, WTC, Goldbergs, AoF, etc. Coupled with the _Orgelbuchlein_, it is undoubtedly his greatest organ work. I view it as the equivalent of the B Minor, except written for a solo instrument. For those not familiar with this music, it features 21 chorale preludes for organ, many of which are amazingly elaborate fugues (and many of which are accompanied by smaller fughettas for manual alone on the same theme). At the end are 4 "duetti," contrapuntal pieces for two voices. Bookending this immense musical journey is the "St. Anne" Prelude and Fugue in E Flat Major, which I find so sublime so as to be at a loss for words. Overall, I find this work hugely compelling. It can be seen as just another logic-defying Bachian magnum opus. But for me, the range of emotions, ideas, and textures communicated through a single instrument makes it very special, and his elaborations on the Lutheran chorales are mind-bogglingly inventive. The fugue on _Vater Unser Im Himmelreich_, in particular, could easily have come from the 20th century with its rich chromaticism and angst. I just thought this tremendous composition deserved a reference thread


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Nice thread! 

A very long time ago, this work was mentioned to me as one of Bach's greatest works -- by an organist, of course -- and I never got over that impression. But come to think of it, I haven't heard that opinion repeated very often. Perhaps it's because organ music is kind of a niche interest, sort of like classical guitar or Renaissance polyphony. But in person, an organ is an amazing experience that we should really all seek out. Imagine what this sounded like in the 18th century, before anyone had any experiences with anything like subwoofers or tweeters! 

Also, of course, the contrapuntal ideas that Bach loves are so much fun on an organ -- very rewarding of careful attention.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> At the end are 4 "duetti," contrapuntal pieces for two voices.


I wonder why, what the point of these duetti are in this Clavier Ubung.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> The fugue on _Vater Unser Im Himmelreich_, in particular, could easily have come from the 20th century with its rich chromaticism and angst.


It is interesting that Bach should write such anguished music for the Lord's Prayer in the pedaliter chorale. The manualiter chorale, BWV 683, seems rather different from an expressive point of view. I don't know enough about Christianity to explain these things, maybe someone who has read Luther can help.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Coupled with the _Orgelbuchlein_, it is undoubtedly his greatest organ work.


There is also the 18 so called "Leipzig" Chorales, BWV 651-668


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I wonder why, what the point of these duetti are in this Clavier Ubung.


Dr, Bradley Lehman, organist, harpsichordist, musicologist and composer, has written extensively on Bach's music with particular reference to his keyboard tuning. Dr. Lehman suspects that Bach's four Duetti are "epigrammatic sphinxes...primarily a set of tuning-test pieces, because they distill all the melodic and harmonic issues of keyboard temperament to the barest essentials, and the most brutally exposed textures. There is nowhere for an unworthy keyboard temperament to hide in these four compositions. If the organ is not set up adequately to handle this duet texture and Bach's ruthless choices of intervals, as can be tested in a 15-minute play-through, one might as well forego the rest of Clavierübung III as well: because the rest of its compositions make similarly stringent demands on a temperament. This is readily verifiable with a harpsichord, or by listening to recordings of this book played in other unequal temperaments: there are always rough spots, except in Bach's own temperament (with its carefully balanced contrasts) or in equal temperament (where it is moot, having no contrasts)."


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I also suspect that the work may not be as well-known due to its rigorous intellectualism, arguably even more than the Art of Fugue in parts. It can be hard to get underneath the dizzyingly mathematical and symbolic exterior to get enjoyment out of it. This speaks to a greater problem that people often seem to have with Bach; not seeing "emotion" and "beauty" in it from a Romantic standard. Last year, for my high school senior thesis, I completed a paper and presentation on Bach's music, analyzing some of his works to see how he reconciles technical perfection with aesthetic beauty. I accompanied the presentation by playing the aria from the Goldbergs on piano (pretty much the easiest thing by Bach I could play). Despite the immense simplicity of that theme, people seemed to really be moved by it. I had someone come up to me afterwards and say, "I always thought Bach was dry and boring, but you've changed my mind!" For me, understanding Bach is not so much about understanding exactly what's going on in the fugues and canons and counterpoint- it's about letting the music soak into you and enjoying the experience.

For the _Organ Mass_, I would recommend starting with one of the fughettas- less than 2 minutes long, easily followed contrapuntal lines, and usually very bouncy and delightful. I am an amateur organist myself, so that may explain why I am so attracted to it. But I don't think I will ever have the requisite skills to play Bach. I just don't want to try and do him justice unless I feel I have truly developed the imagination and technique to do so. And that's OK!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Dr, Bradley Lehman, organist, harpsichordist, musicologist and composer, has written extensively on Bach's music with particular reference to his keyboard tuning. Dr. Lehman suspects that Bach's four Duetti are "epigrammatic sphinxes...primarily a set of tuning-test pieces, because they distill all the melodic and harmonic issues of keyboard temperament to the barest essentials, and the most brutally exposed textures. There is nowhere for an unworthy keyboard temperament to hide in these four compositions. If the organ is not set up adequately to handle this duet texture and Bach's ruthless choices of intervals, as can be tested in a 15-minute play-through, one might as well forego the rest of Clavierübung III as well: because the rest of its compositions make similarly stringent demands on a temperament. This is readily verifiable with a harpsichord, or by listening to recordings of this book played in other unequal temperaments: there are always rough spots, except in Bach's own temperament (with its carefully balanced contrasts) or in equal temperament (where it is moot, having no contrasts)."


I can see that for the central section of BWV 803; I need to think about the others.

Added: on reflection it seems wrong to me.

This seems very much in need of a lot of argument

" If the organ is not set up adequately to handle this duet texture and Bach's ruthless choices of intervals, as can be tested in a 15-minute play-through, one might as well forego the rest of Clavierübung III as well: because the rest of its compositions make similarly stringent demands on a temperament."

What sort of tuning would make you forgo all the preludes in the mass? People have even been known to play it on equally tuned instruments, and on meantone instruments. You can't just alter the tuning of an organ like you would a harpsichord.

BWV 803 has some very crunchy harmonies in the central section. I think the dissonance is intended. David Yearsley is very good on BWV 803.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Mandryka, if you're interested in reading further discussion by Bradley Lehman of the four Duetti you'll find it in his essay that appeared in the May 2005 edition of _Early Music_. Using the link below, it's halfway down the page under 'Part 2 - case study supplement' pages 4-10. It's a bit technical but you should find it intelligible on the whole.

http://www.larips.com/cd1002.html


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks Rick but I can't read it because I don't have the right sort of OUP account. 

You know, in the first half of the 18th century, there were lots of different organ tunings around, performers would change the score in order to accomodate the organ they were playing.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

What is this, exactly? Just a book of assorted organ music? Is it actually a "mass" in any discernible sense?

I actually saw this at the record store yesterday, it was the Nimbus disc with Kevin Bowyer. I decided to get a disc of Langlais organ music instead, but I'll probably come back for this one, unless I find a better recording.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Just a book of assorted organ music?


Yes, or organ and harpsichord music, in those days they were pretty relaxed about that sort of thing and were happy to use any keyboard which would fit the music.



flamencosketches said:


> Is it actually a "mass" in any discernible sense?


It's not a mass in the same way as BWV 232 is a mass. Maybe the music was played in order to spice up the eucharist, or maybe just as the people came in and out of church. Another use could have been just as a sort of anthology of different styles of keyboard music -- a bit of French, a bit of Italian, a bit of South German, a bit of old fashioned etc . . .



flamencosketches said:


> I actually saw this at the record store yesterday, it was the Nimbus disc with Kevin Bowyer.


I haven't heard it. It's on a modern organ and it could well be a good one.



> The organ pipes are very different in size. The smallest pipe is only 1 cm and produces a very high tone, while the deepest tone is produced by a 16ft pipe.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> ….. there are always rough spots, except in *Bach's own temperament* (with its carefully balanced contrasts) or in equal temperament (where it is moot, having no contrasts)."


What is Bach's own temperament? If you know it you must possess supernatural abilities.

Lehman's tuning is one of several possible solutions. As far as I know there are no reports of organs from Bach's time tuned in this way, but I may be wrong. Another thing is, that it makes the music rather mellow sounding, at least when used for a harpsichord (it can be heard on Egarr's and Watchorn's recordings of WTC), and intended contrasts may seem underplayed. BTW I can't recall having heard this tuning used for any organ.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> What is this, exactly? Just a book of assorted organ music? Is it actually a "mass" in any discernible sense?
> 
> I actually saw this at the record store yesterday, it was the Nimbus disc with Kevin Bowyer. I decided to get a disc of Langlais organ music instead, but I'll probably come back for this one, unless I find a better recording.


I'm not a fan of Bowyer's Bach. I'd go for the Suzuki set on BIS; it's quite austere.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

flamencosketches said:


> What is this, exactly? Just a book of assorted organ music? Is it actually a "mass" in any discernible sense?
> 
> I actually saw this at the record store yesterday, it was the Nimbus disc with Kevin Bowyer. I decided to get a disc of Langlais organ music instead, but I'll probably come back for this one, unless I find a better recording.


Hope you enjoy Langlais, he's one of my favorite organ composers.

Yes, in a way, it is just a collection of assorted chorale preludes without a real structure, but I think there's good evidence that Bach intended it to have a structure, framing it with the St. Anne Prelude And Fugue as he did. Not to say that it's meant to be heard in one sitting, I've never done that and expect it would be too much to take in at one time. I think it's a "mass" in the sense that it brings together a wide variety of liturgical/theological ideas based off the Lutheran chorales, and creates musical imagery for each one. The Wiki article I linked in the OP has some really great explanation of some of the symbolism Bach may have intended. It's a huge, sprawling, impractical concept in the same way that the B Minor is. Bach never expected the B Minor to be performed in a real church setting, it was pure idealism. So I don't think he'd care how we perform or listen to it today. He'd just be honored that we're listening to his music at all.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Yes, in a way, it is just a collection of assorted chorale preludes without a real structure, but I think there's good evidence that Bach intended it to have a structure, framing it with the St. Anne Prelude And Fugue as he did. Not to say that it's meant to be heard in one sitting, I've never done that and expect it would be too much to take in at one time.


I always listen to it in one sitting. Why not? It's glorious music that I don't want to end. I feel the same way about Bach's Leipzig Chorales and even the WTC on organ.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> I always listen to it in one sitting. Why not? It's glorious music that I don't want to end. I feel the same way about Bach's Leipzig Chorales and even the WTC on organ.


I would have no problem listening to it in one sitting at all- after all, if all composers disappeared besides Bach, I wouldn't be complaining at all I was just saying that for the benefit of any newcomers to the music, who may find it overwhelming.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

*Do you like this work? Do you love it? Why? What do you like about it?*

Yes, I do like it. I think that Bach achieved an unique musical language in this work by mixing techniques of the Renaissance with those of the late Baroque, and I hear great religiosity and devotion on it. It's a very uplifting work in my opinion.

*Do you have any reservations about it?*

I wish that he had developed a bit more some of the chorales, as some of them have less than two minutes of duration in the performance I have.

*And of course, what are your favorite recordings?*

I own only the Walcha's. I think that his performances of Bach are very intense, and I like them.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> I'm not a fan of Bowyer's Bach. I'd go for the Suzuki set on BIS; it's quite austere.


I like the sound of that. I see his recording includes a choir. So it looks like they sing the chorales, and then he plays the prelude based on them, or something to that effect?



Allegro Con Brio said:


> Hope you enjoy Langlais, he's one of my favorite organ composers.
> 
> Yes, in a way, it is just a collection of assorted chorale preludes without a real structure, but I think there's good evidence that Bach intended it to have a structure, framing it with the St. Anne Prelude And Fugue as he did. Not to say that it's meant to be heard in one sitting, I've never done that and expect it would be too much to take in at one time. I think it's a "mass" in the sense that it brings together a wide variety of liturgical/theological ideas based off the Lutheran chorales, and creates musical imagery for each one. The Wiki article I linked in the OP has some really great explanation of some of the symbolism Bach may have intended. It's a huge, sprawling, impractical concept in the same way that the B Minor is. Bach never expected the B Minor to be performed in a real church setting, it was pure idealism. So I don't think he'd care how we perform or listen to it today. He'd just be honored that we're listening to his music at all.


Loving the Langlais so far. The fifth Meditation on the Apocalypse is terrifying!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> So it looks like they sing the chorales, and then he plays the prelude based on them, or something to that effect?


Preludes. For most chorale there are two preludes, one for an instrument with pedals and one which doesn't need pedals. Suzuki, like most everyone else, uses the same organ for both, a modern instrument in Japan.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

But the Suzuki album actually _does_ have the choir sing the chorale that the prelude(s) is based on before we hear the piece in question. It's really effective; you can appreciate how drastically and creatively Bach transforms the theme once you hear the original. Suzuki's playing definitely has more Baroque styling than old-timers like Walcha. I do think Suzuki's treatment of the counterpoint is somehow clearer than Walcha, but I can't say I'm sure how he does it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

One big problem with the music for me, when I first started to take it seriously and listen to it attentively, were the three opening chorales, BWV 669,670 and 671. They’re written in an old fashioned style which used to seem rather heavy to me, and the music seemed to lack relief. 672 and 673 always felt OK, despite being for manuals only. The fun really started with 675, I used to always wait for this chorale to arrive, or indeed skip to it. From 675 onwards the music always seemed fabulous to me. 

In those early days, 678 was a high point, such attractive pastoral music. It still remains a personal favourite. Just thinking about it sends a frisson down my spine! Especially because it’s followed by the decidedly un-pastoral 679 and 680. It’s a crime to let chorale singing get in the way of that transition! 

To some extent I’ve got over these ideas about the early pieces, and now I enjoy all CU 3, but I still find those three initial chorales are often a challenge. 

My latest CU 3 acquisition, Pieter Van Dijk’s recordings at Alkmaar, is really valuable in this respect, he does a first class job in 669 - 671

Oh, another thing, I rarely listen to the chorales being sung, I’m just not interested!

As much as I love CU3, it’s not my favourite set of Bach organ chorales. That honour goes, by far, to the 18 Leipzig chorales.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

I downloaded the James Kibbie performances of Bach's organ works last week, and decided to have a browse through them this afternoon. I'm now half way through Clavierubung III, and I'm honestly blown away.

I've been looking for a way into Bach's music, and I think I've found it. With the Gould set I got on the cheap, I have all four of the CU books, so I think I'll be working through them over the coming weeks.

Are there any standout performances of CU3 that are easily and cheaply available that would suit my purposes better than the James Kibbie recording? I have too little experience with organ works and playing to know what to look for.

Thanks


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I LOVE IT! Especially because I discovered it only last year and had some intense weeks of listening to it. I'm not always in the mood for organ, but when I am, it is a revelation!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> What is this, exactly? Just a book of assorted organ music? Is it actually a "mass" in any discernible sense?


A book of amassed organ music


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