# Most "Metal" moment in all of orchestral music..............in your opinion?



## ericdxx

*Most "Metal" moment in all of orchestral music..............in your opinion?*

Sincere apologies to anyone who doesn't fancy heavy metal, Black sabbath or Metallica.

Music journalist always reference Bach's Toccata and Fugue or the opening to Beehoven's 5th when they want to connect heavy metal to symphonic music.

In you opinion what is the most heavy metal moment in all of symphonic, orchestral music?

So far I have to go with this one, the opening of Prokofiev's 20th anniversary of the Russian revolution. It's like it's straight out of Metallica's Sad But true


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## Mahlerian

Not orchestral, but I've always found Schoenberg's heavy usage of parallel open fifths in the bass (often a tritone apart) in his String Quartet No. 3 calls metal to mind in an odd way...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Mahlerian said:


> Not orchestral, but I've always found Schoenberg's heavy usage of parallel open fifths in the bass (often a tritone apart) in his String Quartet No. 3 calls metal to mind in an odd way...


Another one I thought of right away was the first of Schoenberg's 5 pieces for Orchestra.

Also, parts of the 2nd movement of Brett Dean's Viola Concerto.


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## dgee

Plenty of metal in the first mvt of Walton 1


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## Weston

Check out this power chord about 13 seconds in.

*Howard Hanson: Lament for Beowulf*


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## neoshredder

Probably something from Beethoven or Bach.


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## Guest

Liszt.... Piano Concerto No. 1, Totentanz, Dante Symphony, etc.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

The Kyrie from J. Haydn's Nelson Mass has to be up there. Also from him: the 1st movement of the Farewell symphony, of the 52nd symphony in C minor, of symphony no. 26 in D minor, the last movement of symphony no. 44 in E minor. The overture to The Seasons also sounds pretty 'metallic' -






- as well as the first movement of the Fifths quartet and the beginning of the aria 'Rollend in schäumenden Wellen' from The Creation.






Also, of course, the forte in the Representation of Chaos,






(4:24)


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## Celloman

If any of the music I listen to sounds anything like metal, I apologize profusely for listening to it. Just to be on the safe side, I think I had better stick with Mozart so as to avoid any shame. The thought of listening to metal...the horror, the horror...


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## neoshredder

Celloman said:


> If any of the music I listen to sounds anything like metal, I apologize profusely for listening to it. Just to be on the safe side, I think I had better stick with Mozart so as to avoid any shame. The thought of listening to metal...the horror, the horror...


Where's the dislike button when you need it.


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## Weston

neoshredder said:


> Where's the dislike button when you need it.


I believe Spinal Tap quoted Mozart, didn't they?


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## Blake

This is funny. I was listening to Beethoven's 6th (can't quite remember), and the violins started doing this muted riff in which I immediately made a connection to old-school Metallica. To see how ahead of his time Beethoven was just astonishes me.


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## starthrower

Stravinsky invented heavy metal in 1913. And thanks for the Prokofiev.


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## PetrB

I nominate those parts of Mahler's Symphony No. 7 where the cowbells are in play


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## neoshredder

Weston said:


> I believe Spinal Tap quoted Mozart, didn't they?


Mozart and Bach. I believe the metalheads prefer the classics. Not the newer stuff. Even though it is more complex and dissonant, I think the metalheads prefer the classic melodies in classical music. Thus why Mozart and Bach were brought up in Spinal Tap. Yngwie prefers Vivaldi, Bach, and Paganini.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

PetrB said:


> I nominate those parts of Mahler's Symphony No. 7 where the cowbells are in play


What, are there cowbells in the 7th? How come I did not know this???


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## drpraetorus

Prokofiev Scythian suite, "Seven, They are Seven" 



Bartok "Bluebeards Castle" 








 (English subtitles not as good a performance)
Bach Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor 



Shostakovich String quartet #8 



Shostakovich Lady MacBeth of Mitsnsk District (aka Katarina Ismailova)


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## Mahlerian

neoshredder said:


> Mozart and Bach. I believe the metalheads prefer the classics. Not the newer stuff. Even though it is more complex and dissonant, I think the metalheads prefer the classic melodies in classical music. Thus why Mozart and Bach were brought up in Spinal Tap. Yngwie prefers Vivaldi, Bach, and Paganini.


So metal musicians are not, in fact, individuals with different tastes, but a collective that follow popular taste?


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## Winterreisender

I suppose Sibelius' 5th could resemble metal. I think of the final movement in particular: the opening "riff" could transfer well onto electric guitar, I imagine, and the enormous climax and the final chords are pretty loud and explosive. And metalheads generally like that Nordic stuff, do they not?


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## Blake

neoshredder said:


> Mozart and Bach. I believe the metalheads prefer the classics. Not the newer stuff. Even though it is more complex and dissonant, I think the metalheads prefer the classic melodies in classical music. Thus why Mozart and Bach were brought up in Spinal Tap. Yngwie prefers Vivaldi, Bach, and Paganini.


They don't call it "Neoclassical Metal" for nothing. :tiphat:


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## Aramis

Mahlerian said:


> So metal musicians are not, in fact, individuals with different tastes, but a collective that follow popular taste?


More than collective taste, it's matter of collective regard for certain qualities, assumed to be "metal". If the music has SUPER FAST KICK-*** EPIC PASSAGES, it's metal. It can be Vivaldi concerto just as well as Rimsky-Korsakov's _Flight of the Bumblebee_. Or it can be POWERFUL DARK ANGST-DRIVEN CLIMATIC STUFF, not much difference: again, it can be Haendel's Sarabande or opening of Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto's 3rd movement. Metalhead will either like it and listen or not like it and still listen, claming that he "respects" it.


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## LordBlackudder

i don't know what most metal means. most boring? most repetitive? generic? something slapped together in 5 minutes? music for kids? most offensive to the most groups of people?


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## Guest

Coming from Mr. "Video Game Soundtracks Are The Pinnacle", that means a whole lot. Also, the OP should've specified what he meant by metal. I listen to mostly old school death and black metal from the '80s, which have drastically different influences from, say, Iron Maiden or Yngwie.

Also, I haven't heard much Yngwie but I would hardly call it metal half the time.


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## neoshredder

arcaneholocaust said:


> Coming from Mr. "Video Game Soundtracks Are The Pinnacle", that means a whole lot. Also, the OP should've specified what he meant by metal. I listen to mostly old school death and black metal from the '80s, which have drastically different influences from, say, Iron Maiden or Yngwie.
> 
> Also, I haven't heard much Yngwie but I would hardly call it metal half the time.


It's called neo-classical metal. There are many kinds of metal. Glam Metal, Neo-Classical Metal, Power Metal, and etc. Not just death, thrash, and black metal. Doesn't make it any less metal just because it isn't as dark as other subgenres of metal.


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## Guest

I'm aware of that, but usually bands named after centerpiece shredders are no more than fun instrumental rock like Joe Satriani. I enjoy power metal, I even joy a couple of glam albums.


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## Guest

Also, the Massacra song I posted a while back was more classical than any of this shredder stuff.


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## PetrB

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What, are there cowbells in the 7th? How come I did not know this???


Woodwinds:
Piccolo
4 Flutes (4th doubling Piccolo 2)
3 Oboes
Cor anglais (English Horn)
Clarinet in E-flat
3 Clarinets in A and B♭
Bass Clarinet in A and B♭
3 Bassoons
Contrabassoon

Brass:
4 Horns in F
Tenorhorn in B♭
3 Trumpets in B♭ and F
3 Trombones
Tuba

Percussion:
Timpani
Bass Drum
Snare Drum
Cymbals
Triangle
Tam-tam
*Cowbells**
Tambourine
Rute (To be played on the shell of bass drum)
Glockenspiel
Tubular bells

Mandolin
Guitar
2 Harps

Strings:
Violins I, II
Violas
Violoncellos
Double Basses

This is the symphony which inspired the original Chicago Symphony produced T-shirt with a portrait of Mahler, the text printed on it, "More Cowbell!"

* The cowbells only, of course, are onstage during a performance, the cows kept backstage until their bells can be returned to them.


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## Guest

Also, the way Ligeti's Devil's Staircase ends with that superpowered bass note vibrating through the air for 30 seconds reminds me of the standard drone of a reverberating distorted power chord.


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## PetrB

Mahlerian said:


> So metal musicians are not, in fact, individuals with different tastes, but a collective that follow popular taste?


Odd that. When I read the comment you are reacting to, 
"Mozart and Bach. I believe the metalheads prefer the classics. Not the newer stuff. Even though it is more complex and dissonant, I think the metalheads prefer the classic melodies in classical music. Thus why Mozart and Bach were brought up in Spinal Tap. Yngwie prefers Vivaldi, Bach, and Paganini."

I thought, well, the genre is generated and consumed mainly by teens (at least initially) and like a lot of the general public, those composers names and a bit of their music are known even when nothing much else about classical is known. So that music is most known, referenced, and recognized. I seriously doubt the choices / uses of it are due to a conscious plucking of that music vs. the tons of others in the canon. (... and I'm still not decided whether the references or borrowing are truly hommages or really more a matter of thinking a bit of credibility / status / prestige get attached in the using of them


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## shangoyal

I recognise metal as music which does not even engage the listener in an internal way. It's like proper music has hooks which latch onto your inner "something" and drag you along a journey. Metal just kind of pounds your outer person, your physical body and the effect of that is also psychological but it's short-lived, forgettable and does not have too much insight. In other words, you enjoy it, but it does not change your perceptions. I think punk rock is also visceral, but it's almost the complete opposite of metal in all other ways.

By the way, I think Bach's Toccata in D minor gets some inexplicable attention from metal fans. They call it "the birth of metal". Whatever.


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## Blake

There's Metal out there that's introspective. Agalloch's _Mantle_, for instance. However, you might be turned off by the Black Metal vocals. Still and all, it's an introspection... although one that carries a heavy stench of personal aggression.


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## PetrB

shangoyal said:


> ... By the way, I think Bach's Toccata in D minor gets some inexplicable attention from metal fans. They call it "the birth of metal". Whatever.


Hey, single instrument, one player, humongous decibels of sound, what's not to recognize there? LOL!

I bet if they'd heard Messiaen's _Dieu parmi nous_ from his organ suite _La Nativité du Seigneur -- at least the toccata part starting (below) @ 05'40 -- that would become yet another "Metal prePrototype."




_


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## dgee

Ligeti's Continuum for harpsichord and Volumina for organ?


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## Blake

PetrB said:


> Hey, single instrument, one player, humongous decibels of sound, what's not to recognize there? LOL!
> 
> I bet if they'd heard Messiaen's _Dieu parmi nous_ from his organ suite _La Nativité du Seigneur -- at least the toccata part starting (below) @ 05'40 -- that would become yet another "Metal prePrototype."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


_

I've found that it's best to stay uncritical of things when understanding is in short supply. Because that would simply be a propagation of hate stemmed from ignorance. Not all Metal is a spawn of meat-heads. This seems to be the stereotype coming from the popular "teeny-bop" Metal you see in the media, but that label shouldn't be spread out to all._


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## shangoyal

Vesuvius said:


> I've found that it's best to stay uncritical of things when understanding is in short supply. Because that would simply be a propagation of hate stemmed from ignorance. Not all Metal is a spawn of meat-heads. This seems to be the stereotype coming from the popular "teeny-bop" Metal you see in the media, but that label shouldn't be spread out to all.


Of course, all metal is not bad. Like all politicians are not bad, like all wine is not good, like all bread is not edible. Let us mortals have a symbol ("Metal") to contain all that we dislike about young kids, and bash it up properly. It's like Chuck Berry, who said "Roll Over Beethoven", do you think he had heard the Grosse Fuge? So let us be kids in our own classical ways like the metal heads who are really just sound puppets.

THERE you go.


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## Blake

Haha, and that's all folks :tiphat:.


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## Celloman

I'm sure there are plenty of heavy metal forums out there for anyone who is interested...(hint, hint)


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## Blake

Very astute observation, C.


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## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> I've found that it's best to stay uncritical of things when understanding is in short supply. Because that would simply be a propagation of hate stemmed from ignorance. Not all Metal is a spawn of meat-heads. This seems to be the stereotype coming from the popular "teeny-bop" Metal you see in the media, but that label shouldn't be spread out to all.


Oooh, it seems _my understanding of metal is in short supply_, me oh my. Well, at less than a risk of sounding arrogant, if you've enough musical and listening experience, five minutes of the most advanced prog-rock metal with all its lifted techniques from synthetic scales and polyryhthms, etc. as practiced by the best virtuosi is actually enough to grok what it is all about, and the quality of what you're listening to. Tell me, please, that like a great deal of Messiaen, that "Big and Loud" is not a basic part of the aesthetic, teenybop mentality or other


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## sharik

> Most "Metal" moment in all of orchestral music


Stravinsky - _Le Sacre Du Printemps_.


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## PetrB

Celloman said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of heavy metal forums out there for anyone who is interested...(hint, hint)


Yes, and it is just too bad for the adult who wishes to discuss the ultra sophisticated ins and outs of metal and _the lyrics_ while those sites are generally littered with a population mainly male and teen.

I'm sure it is difficult to discuss this ever so profound and sophisticated music like an adult when surrounded by a crowd like that


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## neoshredder

PetrB said:


> Yes, and it is just too bad for the adult who wishes to discuss the ultra sophisticated ins and outs of metal and _the lyrics_ while those sites are generally littered with a population mainly male and teen.
> 
> I'm sure it is difficult to discuss this ever so profound and sophisticated music like an adult when surrounded by a crowd like that


Join my neo-classical metal forum. Problem solved.  Both styles are great for me in different ways. If you need that adrenalin rush, Metal wins. If you are ready to hear a serious piece, Classical wins.


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## elgar's ghost

Near the end of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto the orchestra collectively comes back in with an immense crash that could give many heavy powerchords a run for their money.


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## DeepR

I don't hear the connection so for me, none.
I don't hear powerful moments in metal because it's continously FFFF, if anything it's tiresome to the ears.


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## Blake

PetrB said:


> Oooh, it seems _my understanding of metal is in short supply_, me oh my. Well, at less than a risk of sounding arrogant, if you've enough musical and listening experience, five minutes of the most advanced prog-rock metal with all its lifted techniques from synthetic scales and polyryhthms, etc. as practiced by the best virtuosi is actually enough to grok what it is all about, and the quality of what you're listening to. Tell me, please, that like a great deal of Messiaen, that "Big and Loud" is not a basic part of the aesthetic, teenybop mentality or other


Yes, it's aggressive music... No doubt. My more important point is that to criticize something you obviously can't get into and fully understand renders your logic questionable. I'm not trying to defend Metal with emotional banter. I'm simply trying to preserve an objective level of reasoning.

Emotional criticism is quite limited in its fulfillment... it actually takes away from understanding. I enjoy many styles of music, so I'm not some "Metal-head" trying to stick up for Metal.... I'm just a fan of reasonability and compassionate understanding. 
:tiphat:


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## neoshredder

DeepR said:


> I don't hear the connection so for me, none.
> I don't hear powerful moments in metal because it's continously FFFF, if anything it's tiresome to the ears.


Would you call power ballads as metal? Definitely some quiet points in these songs. Def Leppard, Whitesnake, Scorpions, and etc to name a few.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Weston said:


> I believe Spinal Tap quoted Mozart, didn't they?


I think the guitarist plays Boccherini's Minuet, actually.


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## Joris

I hear metal traits in this piano piece, for some weird reason


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## PetrB

elgars ghost said:


> Near the end of Schoenberg's Violin Concerto the orchestra collectively comes back in with an immense crash that could give many heavy powerchords a run for their money.


Especially because power chords aren't chords: they're two pitched (fifth) w / an octave doubling, or a _Duad_


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## Guest

This thread is getting offensive to my sensibilities.


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## Couac Addict

Every time I stage-dive into the orchestra pit.


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## neoshredder

Yeah nothing like the mosh pit in a Beethoven concert.


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## Couac Addict

neoshredder said:


> Yeah nothing like the mosh pit in a Beethoven concert.


 Crowd surfing in the pit is kept to a minimum these days. I'm sick of losing my wallet and car keys...also, the flautists can be a little too _touchy-feely.
_


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Haydn 88 finale, arranged and played by Paul Gilbert here. There's a better recording of him somewhere on YouTube, but this is pretty good.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Haydn 88 finale, arranged and played by Paul Gilbert here. There's a better recording of him somewhere on YouTube, but this is pretty good.


Personally, I like how Gilbert popularizes Haydn's music - but the finale of no. 88 is hardly the most 'metal' moment in Haydn - he should've played something like the 1st movement of the Farewell symphony or the last movement of Symphony 44, now that's metal.


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## Cheyenne

PetrB said:


> This is the symphony which inspired the original Chicago Symphony produced T-shirt with a portrait of Mahler, the text printed on it, "More Cowbell!"


_Finallly_ I get the joke!


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## CBD

Prokofiev Symphony no. 2 first movement.


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## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> Yes, it's aggressive music... No doubt. My more important point is that to criticize something you obviously can't get into and fully understand renders your logic questionable. I'm not trying to defend Metal with emotional banter. I'm simply trying to preserve an objective level of reasoning.
> 
> Emotional criticism is quite limited in its fulfillment... it actually takes away from understanding. I enjoy many styles of music, so I'm not some "Metal-head" trying to stick up for Metal.... I'm just a fan of reasonability and compassionate understanding.
> :tiphat:


A friend of mine nailed, I thought, the essential spirit of rock / hard rock / metal, and a lot of "agressive" pop music -- *"Music which celebrates the ego."* Bad thing? I think not. It is peoples music, from and very much about the self, and reveling in it. There is a place for that, a large place, and always a youthful segment of the population, and those who like to visit there even when they are not so youthful anymore 

But, "sophisticated" and "adrenaline rush" are both found in classical music, those build-ups to a shattering climax, those more intense pieces or movements. As DeepR pointed out, the metal, most of the hard rock of varying degrees of genre, are mainly FF, FFF, or FFFF all the way through, and that, lacking any context of other dynamic, gets dulling very quickly. One reason the climaxes and "metal moments" in classical are so effective is they _arrive_ after something other than FF - FFFF has been going on, the set up and arrival being together what bring the chills, the goosebumps, that _frisson._


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## Blake

PetrB said:


> A friend of mine nailed, I thought, the essential spirit of rock / hard rock / metal, and a lot of "agressive" pop music -- *"Music which celebrates the ego."* Bad thing? I think not. It is peoples music, from and very much about the self, and reveling in it. There is a place for that, a large place, and always a youthful segment of the population, and those who like to visit there even when they are not so youthful anymore
> 
> But, "sophisticated" and "adrenaline rush" are both found in classical music, those build-ups to a shattering climax, those more intense pieces or movements. As DeepR pointed out, the metal, most of the hard rock of varying degrees of genre, are mainly FF, FFF, or FFFF all the way through, and that, lacking any context of other dynamic, gets dulling very quickly. One reason the climaxes and "metal moments" in classical are so effective is they _arrive_ after something other than FF - FFFF has been going on, the set up and arrival being together what bring the chills, the goosebumps, that _frisson._


I agree with all of this.


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## GioCar

sharik said:


> Stravinsky - _Le Sacre Du Printemps_.


and, I would say, Varèse: Ameriques (8 years later)


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## PetrB

As that cliche classical nerd tween, my rock 'n' roll was more something like Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2, Stravinsky's Petrushka, or some of the gnarlier movements or sections of (at the time more current / contemporary) early to mid-century 20th century classical music.

For some, the heavy metal first classical experience is the introductory _O Fortuna_ from Orff's _Carmina Burana_.

Again in my teens, hearing a live performance of Prokofiev's _Scythian Suite_ left me with the same hours-long-after adrenaline high that say, attending a live performance of the Rolling Stones may have done for one of my peers.

But I disagree about those pockets of so called introspect or refinement when it comes to the majority of metal and its devoted adherents -- well over 99% of the requests for classical which is "most like metal" are worded in this manner: 
"What is the angriest / most intense / most epic, classical music most like (heavy) metal?"

All nano-islands of reflective, introspect, soft dynamic, bits of slower tempi ballads apart, the majority of metal fans, it seems, are seeking even more "angriest / most intense / most epic." This is not exactly the (nuanced) music which takes time to develop vs. "getting right into it and staying there," etc.

I don't think that is any wild misunderstanding of the generic qualities or inherent traits of the vast majority of the metal rep, but just calling it what it is.


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## PetrB

arcaneholocaust said:


> This thread is getting offensive to my sensibilities.


A little light armor of slightly padded clothing helps. (This from decades of experience having _my sensibilities offended_, Lol.)


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## Mahlerian

PetrB said:


> For some, the heavy metal first classical experience is the introductory _O Fortuna_ from Orff's _Carmina Burana_.


I think Orff would be glad to know he has the headbanger set covered. After all, he taught children by letting them hit things.


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## Blake

PetrB said:


> As that cliche classical nerd tween, my rock 'n' roll was more something like Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2, Stravinsky's Petrushka, or some of the gnarlier movements or sections of (at the time more current / contemporary) early to mid-century 20th century classical music.
> 
> For some, the heavy metal first classical experience is the introductory _O Fortuna_ from Orff's _Carmina Burana_.
> 
> Again in my teens, hearing a live performance of Prokofiev's _Scythian Suite_ left me with the same hours-long-after adrenaline high that say, attending a live performance of the Rolling Stones may have done for one of my peers.
> 
> But I disagree about those pockets of so called introspect or refinement when it comes to the majority of metal and its devoted adherents -- well over 99% of the requests for classical which is "most like metal" are worded in this manner:
> "What is the angriest / most intense / most epic, classical music most like (heavy) metal?"
> 
> All nano-islands of reflective, introspect, soft dynamic, bits of slower tempi ballads apart, the majority of metal fans, it seems, are seeking even more "angriest / most intense / most epic." This is not exactly the (nuanced) music which takes time to develop vs. "getting right into it and staying there," etc.
> 
> I don't think that is any wild misunderstanding of the generic qualities or inherent traits of the vast majority of the metal rep, but just calling it what it is.


I'm into it all, brother. I can listen to some Bruckner symphonies, Rachmaninov piano concerti, or Bruch violin concerti one day... just to be jamming out on some Led Zeppelin or Stevie Ray Vaughan the next. A man of many facets, I am.


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## neoshredder

Vesuvius said:


> I'm into it all, brother. I can listen to some Bruckner symphonies, Rachmaninov piano concerti, or Bruch violin concerti one day... just to be jamming out on some Led Zeppelin or Stevie Ray Vaughan the next. A man of many facets, I am.


Could you jam out to some glam metal or neo-classical metal as well? Or meditate to psychedelic music of the late 60's? That would be me depending on my mood.


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## Blake

neoshredder said:


> Could you jam out to some glam metal or neo-classical metal as well? Or meditate to psychedelic music of the late 60's? That would be me depending on my mood.


Haven't listened to Glam or Neoclassical Metal since my highschool days. Can't say it wouldn't bring back memories and put a smile on my face though. Still a fan of Psychedelic/Progressive Rock. Pink Floyd is one of my favorite bands of all time.

But yea, I get your point... You should be able to listen to what you want without worrying about some "image" you need to maintain. Angry, happy, stupid, smart... whatever, man. Most of us have been there.

:tiphat:


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## Copperears

PetrB said:


> Woodwinds:
> Piccolo
> 4 Flutes (4th doubling Piccolo 2)
> 3 Oboes
> Cor anglais (English Horn)
> Clarinet in E-flat
> 3 Clarinets in A and B♭
> Bass Clarinet in A and B♭
> 3 Bassoons
> Contrabassoon
> 
> Brass:
> 4 Horns in F
> Tenorhorn in B♭
> 3 Trumpets in B♭ and F
> 3 Trombones
> Tuba
> 
> Percussion:
> Timpani
> Bass Drum
> Snare Drum
> Cymbals
> Triangle
> Tam-tam
> *Cowbells**
> Tambourine
> Rute (To be played on the shell of bass drum)
> Glockenspiel
> Tubular bells
> 
> Mandolin
> Guitar
> 2 Harps
> 
> Strings:
> Violins I, II
> Violas
> Violoncellos
> Double Basses
> 
> This is the symphony which inspired the original Chicago Symphony produced T-shirt with a portrait of Mahler, the text printed on it, "More Cowbell!"
> 
> * The cowbells only, of course, are onstage during a performance, the cows kept backstage until their bells can be returned to them.


So not only cowbells.... but off-stage horns...... oh wait, cows. Not bull. 

Mahlerian had it right at the start. S/he knoweth whereofeth s/he speaketh!


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## Copperears

Vesuvius said:


> I'm into it all, brother. I can listen to some Bruckner symphonies, Rachmaninov piano concerti, or Bruch violin concerti one day... just to be jamming out on some Led Zeppelin or Stevie Ray Vaughan the next. A man of many facets, I am.


Plus I hear Lamb of God is good, no reference to Handel's Messiah, though, I suspect, though I could be wrong, omg.


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## violadude

I don't really hear much connection between classical and metal myself.

I've been trying to get into metal for a while now, because a lot of it seems like stuff I might like. But the constant chugging and previously mentioned constant FFF dynamics start to get to me. Music needs breathing room.


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## DeepR

violadude said:


> Music needs breathing room.


Very true. And it's not just that there's little to no dynamic variation in the playing of drums and guitars (and grunting... lol).... it's also the way the recordings are mastered, which seems to squeeze out the last bit of "breathing room" the music may have had.


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## PetrB

Vesuvius said:


> Haven't listened to Glam or Neoclassical Metal since my highschool days. Can't say it wouldn't bring back memories and put a smile on my face though. Still a fan of Psychedelic/Progressive Rock. Pink Floyd is one of my favorite bands of all time.
> 
> But yea, I get your point... You should be able to listen to what you want without worrying about some "image" you need to maintain. Angry, happy, stupid, smart... whatever, man. Most of us have been there.
> 
> :tiphat:


Image should have nothing to do with it, but it seems it near always does. Liking *all* that you like _should_ be the image of your musical taste, not 'part of it,' and not your 'whole image' anyway. As is well known, your image, and the fare, gets you on the bus


----------



## Blake

Copperears said:


> Plus I hear Lamb of God is good, no reference to Handel's Messiah, though, I suspect, though I could be wrong, omg.


Never really cared for Lamb of God. Sort of aggressive just for the sake of being aggressive. I don't listen to much Metal anymore... but the few bands I still dig are Amorphis, Primordial, Moonsorrow, and Agalloch.


----------



## Blake

See if you can appreciate this, if just a little:


----------



## Keith

The big climax of the eighth symphony by Bruckner, conducted by Herbert Von Karajan and the Vienna Philharmonic.


----------



## PeterJB

Manfred Symphony certainly has it's moments.


----------



## meredull

Metal lovers should definitely check out Lyatoshinsky's 2nd symphony


----------



## Morimur

Metal lovers should stop seeking 'metal moments' in Classical music; it's a completely different genre. In any case, I suggest you look into Jason Eckardt's (b. 1971) work. He played guitar in jazz and metal bands until, upon first hearing the music of Webern, immediately devoted himself to composition.

http://www.ensemble21.com/eckardt/home.html


----------



## xpangaeax

My Harmony teacher at Music School always used to say "Chopin invented death metal" in reference to Prelude 2 Op 28.


----------



## nightscape

The opening to the 4th movement of Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto is pretty heavy.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

> nightscape: The opening to the 4th movement of Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto is pretty heavy


Note to self: 'Check that out.'

I haven't heard it in years. Maybe I should start listening to the music I buy.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

F. J. Haydn - the Kyrie of the Lord Nelson mass.


----------



## DiesIraeCX

Bruckner Symphony No. 9 - 2nd Movement


----------



## Marschallin Blair

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Bruckner Symphony No. 9 - 2nd Movement


Total metal alright.

And if you want pure, Blitzkreiging,_ HAM-MER-ING intensity _for that movement?:









Furtwangler's full-tilt charge blows vintage Metallica right off the stage.


----------



## Itullian

Leifs Saga symphony


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Thor Johnson's fifties Sibelius _The Origin of Fire_--- the warriors' chorus at 07:24+

If only Decca did the sound!


----------



## Torkelburger

Even though it's not orchestral, one could say the Allegro molto from Bartok's 4th Quartet sounds "metal". Even the cello player in this performance here almost seems to be headbanging, heh-heh:lol::


----------



## Torkelburger

Boulez No II from Notations for Orchestra.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Metal lovers should stop seeking 'metal moments' in Classical music; it's a completely different genre. In any case, I suggest you look into Jason Eckardt's (b. 1971) work. He played guitar in jazz and metal bands until, upon first hearing the music of Webern, immediately devoted himself to composition.
> 
> http://www.ensemble21.com/eckardt/home.html


Hm, not really - the origin of heavy metal is actually classical music.


----------



## neoshredder

Beethoven is pure metal.


----------



## Guest

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Hm, not really - the origin of heavy metal is actually classical music.


Heavy metal is loosely and indirectly derived from classical music, just like dubstep is loosely and indirectly derived from classical music. Were you planning on a dubstep thread?


----------



## violadude

Sorry, I just can't connect those two genres in my mind. They seem totally different to me.


----------



## Guest

Classical shot off towards jazz, then some blues and rock fluff, then metal.

Classical started using tapes and electronics, people start using electronics without the classical stuff, technology gets simpler, then dubstep.

In other words, the relation to either genre is about as strong as my relationship to Kevin Bacon (I once worked with a guy who was a child actor, thus 2 degrees from Kevin Bacon).


----------



## chalkpie

This slice of metal plays out and develops like a symphonic movement if you really listen. Opeth (Sweden).


----------



## Torkelburger

arcaneholocaust said:


> Classical shot off towards jazz, then some blues and rock fluff, then metal.
> 
> Classical started using tapes and electronics, people start using electronics without the classical stuff, technology gets simpler, then dubstep.
> 
> In other words, the relation to either genre is about as strong as my relationship to Kevin Bacon (I once worked with a guy who was a child actor, thus 2 degrees from Kevin Bacon).


This is a really good point. And one of my favorite Iron Maiden instrumentals illustrates perfectly. "Losfer Words" from 1984's Powerslave album. It uses several modes (from classical and especially jazz), (and pentatonic scales of course, from blues), and it is in triple (not duple) feel (relating to blues again, but much faster of course).

The modes/scales are dorian, pentatonic, dorian, pentatonic, lydian, mixolydian, lydian, mixolydian, (stays on mixo?), modulates to aeolian, definitely aeolian (classic metal sound) at 2:31, mixolydian, back to dorian, etc., etc.

In addition to this, what makes fans of metal make a connection between metal and classical is there is a level of technical dexterity you see in the best metal musicians that you just don't see in other popular genres of music. It's not so much about entertainment as it is about musicianship. The historically great metal bands were not only great songwriters, but great instrumentalists as well. They know countless scales and modes, when to use them; can play very fast, clean, and precise; can play rhythmically complex music.

Notice too in the Maiden example the use of thirds/sixths in the two guitars together. That shows somewhat of a deeper understanding of music beyond your average garageband. It shows an understanding of traditional theory. And notice the drums. You can tell the man has studied classical technique. Why do the fills at 2:41(!) and 2:30 sound like your classic Nicko McBrain fills? Because he is a trained musician and the man cannot play banality. Instead of playing "tap-technique" which is what every idiot drummer in existence only knows how to do (everything is always a single stroke, every time their arm goes down, it makes one stroke), he utilizes classical rudiments in his playing (flams, ruffs, drags, etc.). And those triplets in the bass drums in the middle part, against the backbeats in the snare...theoretical.

Clearly, this is what music sounds like when made from trained musicians. That is one of the reasons why (good) metal music is considered to be influenced by classical music (from the technical and theoretical side).


----------



## Marschallin Blair

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Hm, not really - the origin of heavy metal is actually classical music.


_Totally._

In the Begining, there was _Gotterdammerung_. . . and then later, on the third day, there was _Metallica's Ride the Lightning_.


----------



## Celloissimo

Torkelburger said:


> This is a really good point. And one of my favorite Iron Maiden instrumentals illustrates perfectly. "Losfer Words" from 1984's Powerslave album. It uses several modes (from classical and especially jazz), (and pentatonic scales of course, from blues), and it is in triple (not duple) feel (relating to blues again, but much faster of course).
> 
> The modes/scales are dorian, pentatonic, dorian, pentatonic, lydian, mixolydian, lydian, mixolydian, (stays on mixo?), modulates to aeolian, definitely aeolian (classic metal sound) at 2:31, mixolydian, back to dorian, etc., etc.
> 
> In addition to this, what makes fans of metal make a connection between metal and classical is there is a level of technical dexterity you see in the best metal musicians that you just don't see in other popular genres of music. It's not so much about entertainment as it is about musicianship. The historically great metal bands were not only great songwriters, but great instrumentalists as well. They know countless scales and modes, when to use them; can play very fast, clean, and precise; can play rhythmically complex music.
> 
> Notice too in the Maiden example the use of thirds/sixths in the two guitars together. That shows somewhat of a deeper understanding of music beyond your average garageband. It shows an understanding of traditional theory. And notice the drums. You can tell the man has studied classical technique. Why do the fills at 2:41(!) and 2:30 sound like your classic Nicko McBrain fills? Because he is a trained musician and the man cannot play banality. Instead of playing "tap-technique" which is what every idiot drummer in existence only knows how to do (everything is always a single stroke, every time their arm goes down, it makes one stroke), he utilizes classical rudiments in his playing (flams, ruffs, drags, etc.). And those triplets in the bass drums in the middle part, against the backbeats in the snare...theoretical.
> 
> Clearly, this is what music sounds like when made from trained musicians. That is one of the reasons why (good) metal music is considered to be influenced by classical music (from the technical and theoretical side).


I f*cking love this track. Also note that Losfer Words is also in Sonata Form. Just goes to show how Steve Harris, and so many metal artists in general, are brilliant composers who often get overlooked because of the social stigma heavy metal has. It's also kind of sad how a lot of Maiden fans label Losfer Words as a "filler" song.


----------



## OperaGeek

For some of heaviest "power chords" around, try some Wagner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DnstP-aUtU#t=2249


----------



## Morimur

Torkelburger said:


> This is a really good point. And one of my favorite Iron Maiden instrumentals illustrates perfectly. "Losfer Words" from 1984's Powerslave album. It uses several modes (from classical and especially jazz), (and pentatonic scales of course, from blues), and it is in triple (not duple) feel (relating to blues again, but much faster of course).
> 
> The modes/scales are dorian, pentatonic, dorian, pentatonic, lydian, mixolydian, lydian, mixolydian, (stays on mixo?), modulates to aeolian, definitely aeolian (classic metal sound) at 2:31, mixolydian, back to dorian, etc., etc.
> 
> In addition to this, what makes fans of metal make a connection between metal and classical is there is a level of technical dexterity you see in the best metal musicians that you just don't see in other popular genres of music. It's not so much about entertainment as it is about musicianship. The historically great metal bands were not only great songwriters, but great instrumentalists as well. They know countless scales and modes, when to use them; can play very fast, clean, and precise; can play rhythmically complex music.
> 
> Notice too in the Maiden example the use of thirds/sixths in the two guitars together. That shows somewhat of a deeper understanding of music beyond your average garageband. It shows an understanding of traditional theory. And notice the drums. You can tell the man has studied classical technique. Why do the fills at 2:41(!) and 2:30 sound like your classic Nicko McBrain fills? Because he is a trained musician and the man cannot play banality. Instead of playing "tap-technique" which is what every idiot drummer in existence only knows how to do (everything is always a single stroke, every time their arm goes down, it makes one stroke), he utilizes classical rudiments in his playing (flams, ruffs, drags, etc.). And those triplets in the bass drums in the middle part, against the backbeats in the snare...theoretical.
> 
> Clearly, this is what music sounds like when made from trained musicians. That is one of the reasons why (good) metal music is considered to be influenced by classical music (from the technical and theoretical side).


Oh yes, eat your heart out, JS Bach.... BAHAHAHA!


----------



## Blake

Lope... this bullying. Jesus would be disappointed.


----------



## Guest

That Iron Maiden reply is really not the point I was going for... For the record, I have no relation to Kevin Bacon.


----------



## Torkelburger

arcaneholocaust said:


> That Iron Maiden reply is really not the point I was going for... For the record, I have no relation to Kevin Bacon.


Wow. So you had no idea you were speaking the truth. Interesting.

Then I take it, for the record of course, you have no clue what relation this blues legend has to hard rock music of the 60's, 70's either:


----------



## WorthyYeti

I don't know a lot about metal, but I do believe that it is quite a complex genre and I wish there were less people "picking on it" in the public. As for which piece, I would say Night On a Bald Mountain has some "metal-esque" qualities.


----------



## Guest

I have, most likely, more experience with metal than any other frequent poster on this board, and I'm not bashing; I'm just not seeing any strong comparisons. As someone who improvised on scales and covered random Mercyful Fate tunes and whatnot for the majority of my music fanboy years, without even being able to read music at the time, I can tell you it's certainly not as complex as the speed factor can make it sound. 

Sure, there's more obscure (not Iron Maiden) weird complex metal, but weird complex classical music blows it out of the water in terms of complexity, and, as I've seen first hand after picking up the piano in more recent times, the virtuosity requirements of the two genres aren't even remotely comparable. There's a reason most metal bands start as a pack of rowdy teenagers jamming in a garage.

As for the "theoretical" aspects, any kid can pick up a guitar for the first time and look up some important scales on a guitar tab website these days (and these sorts of sheet music don't bother to talk about proper fingerings, etc). Mention of modes is just silly; 1) they're going to use modes - it's simple western music, but you can't just stick with major and minor scales because how on earth would you fit in that diminished fifth?!?! Also, harmonizing in thirds is just about the least advanced thing you can do to make any music sound kinda decent.

I'm not bashing metal here, like I said. But it certainly gets a little old when people make things out to be something they aren't.


----------



## echo




----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

arcaneholocaust said:


> I have, most likely, more experience with metal than any other frequent poster on this board, and I'm not bashing; I'm just not seeing any strong comparisons. As someone who improvised on scales and covered random Mercyful Fate tunes and whatnot for the majority of my music fanboy years, without even being able to read music at the time, I can tell you it's certainly not as complex as the speed factor can make it sound.
> 
> Sure, there's more obscure (not Iron Maiden) weird complex metal, but weird complex classical music blows it out of the water in terms of complexity, and, as I've seen first hand after picking up the piano in more recent times, the virtuosity requirements of the two genres aren't even remotely comparable. There's a reason most metal bands start as a pack of rowdy teenagers jamming in a garage.
> 
> As for the "theoretical" aspects, any kid can pick up a guitar for the first time and look up some important scales on a guitar tab website these days (and these sorts of sheet music don't bother to talk about proper fingerings, etc). Mention of modes is just silly; 1) they're going to use modes - it's simple western music, but you can't just stick with major and minor scales because how on earth would you fit in that diminished fifth?!?! Also, harmonizing in thirds is just about the least advanced thing you can do to make any music sound kinda decent.
> 
> I'm not bashing metal here, like I said. But it certainly gets a little old when people make things out to be something they aren't.


I can't understand how you can't hear similarities between classical and metal. Just listen to Vivaldi's Four Seasons dude - Summer - 3rd movement. Sounds like muted riffing madness from modern melodic death albums. Classical is written all over metal - of course not all bands, but especially in the following genres: traditional heavy metal (Iron Maiden, Rainbow, Judas Priest), power metal, melodic death metal and some black metal (the symphonic kind, although I'm not very familiar with that).
That metal is directly related to classical is a fact that can't be argued. Nevermind extremely famous neoclassical metal musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen (granted, I don't like the guy's arrogance but he can play).


----------



## Guest

I'm not denying that comparisons can be made. I'm just pointing out that the similarities are pretty trivial.


----------



## Torkelburger

> I have, most likely, more experience with metal than any other frequent poster on this board, and I'm not bashing; I'm just not seeing any strong comparisons.


Then I'll make it easy for you. There doesn't have to be. You and I have been discussing exactly the following proposition from your post "Classical shot off towards jazz, then some blues and rock fluff, then metal." This is precisely correct. If you don't want to call it "strong", fine. But it is related. And some songs/bands more than others.


> As someone who improvised on scales and covered random Mercyful Fate tunes and whatnot for the majority of my music fanboy years, without even being able to read music at the time, I can tell you it's certainly not as complex as the speed factor can make it sound.


Strawman. I brought up complexity in comparison to other pop genres, not in comparison to classical, jazz, or your own personal tastes and whims. 


> Sure, there's more obscure (not Iron Maiden) weird complex metal, but weird complex classical music blows it out of the water in terms of complexity, and, as I've seen first hand after picking up the piano in more recent times, the virtuosity requirements of the two genres aren't even remotely comparable. There's a reason most metal bands start as a pack of rowdy teenagers jamming in a garage.


Same strawman. I brought up complexity in comparison to other pop genres, not in comparison to classical, jazz, or your own personal tastes and whims. 


> As for the "theoretical" aspects, any kid can pick up a guitar for the first time and look up some important scales on a guitar tab website these days (and these sorts of sheet music don't bother to talk about proper fingerings, etc).


Yes, that is theoretical, isn't it? Thanks for making my point for me.


> Mention of modes is just silly; 1) they're going to use modes - it's simple western music, but you can't just stick with major and minor scales because how on earth would you fit in that diminished fifth?!?!


Um, no. In classical music history, jazz history, and in rock history, the use of modes was not trite. You know very well in each instance it was ground-breaking and revolutionary (Debussy, Miles Davis, the Beatles). Iron Maiden using the modes to compose illustrates that metal belongs in the timeline you wrote in your initial post. They are cognizant of a very detailed theory in the history of western music, like it or not.
Saying "how on earth would you fit in that diminished fifth" makes no sense. If you think so, then explain how a diminished fifth is "fit in" and exploited in dorian. It isn't.


> Also, harmonizing in thirds is just about the least advanced thing you can do to make any music sound kinda decent.


I think you are being intellectually dishonest here. And again, we are comparing to other forms of pop, or you could even just compare to rock alone. Two guitars soloing together in harmony is a trademark sound of metal and is in my opinion a step above 1. not harmonizing at all 2. harmonizing in fifths. You need not agree, however.


----------



## Morimur

Praising Yngwie Malmsteen on this here reputable music blog is detrimental to your credibility: -50 pts for you!


----------



## Guest

Response 1: You are right. The strength of the relation is somewhat irrelevant. Metal is, in fact, somewhat rooted in classical music - just like pretty much everything else we hear nowadays.

Response 2 & 3: As we were discussing metal and classical music, I thought the complexity statements were made in regard to those two genres. I will agree that a lot of metal is more complex than a lot of pop.

Response 4: Yes, there is theory in learning a scale one way or another - this should have no comparison, however, to formal classical training. 

Response 5: Completely disagree that Iron Maiden was remotely "cognizant of a very detailed theory in the history of western music" - or at least, not without citation. The majority of metal guitarists have absolutely no clue about the theoretical aspects of their music. Trust me, we're not hitting that diminished fifth thinking "I SHALL RECALL TO THE MASSES THE GREATNESS OF MEDIEVAL MODALITY!"; it goes more like "Hey...this note here sounds kinda metal after my open 6th string". Of course, they ARE subconsciously using modes - but that's simply because the simple major scale would never serve the genre very well.

Also, I take issue with the term "compose" being used in these idioms - even though it's just nitpicking. Many of these songs in popular idioms can be written in less time than they even take to listen to - thanks to intensive repeats and the fact that plenty of metal guitarists never even write the stuff down.

Response 6: Ok, you got me on this one. I see "harmonizing in fifths" (pretty much the beginnings of the power chord) as something so subconsciously ingrained in the most elementary solo metal guitarist, that I didn't even think of it.


----------



## neoshredder

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Praising Yngwie Malmsteen on this here reputable music blog is detrimental to your credibility: -50 pts for you!


Yngwie with Alcatrazz and his first four solo albums were great. Most would agree he hasn't reached up to expectations since. Getting stuck in a rut is an understatement for his albums since the 80's. But you still gotta give credit to what he used to do. Adding to that, Tony MacAlpine, Vinnie Moore, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman, Uli Jon Roth, and etc. showed classical influences.


----------



## Guest

I'd like to see the look on Yngwie's face if we asked him to write an adagio movement


----------



## neoshredder

arcaneholocaust said:


> I'd like to see the look on Yngwie's face if we asked him to write an adagio movement


----------



## Morimur

arcaneholocaust said:


> I'd like to see the look on Yngwie's face if we asked him to write an adagio movement


A blank, clueless stare... sucking on a phantom straw, apparently.

View attachment 48977


----------



## neoshredder

Lope de Aguirre said:


> A blank, clueless stare... sucking on a phantom straw, apparently.
> 
> View attachment 48977


That's a look of someone who has partied too hard in the 80's imo. But he once was a genious and not just a shredder. But a lot of us have self destructed through alcohol or whatever else was available. I'm pretty sure Yngwie abused alcohol to the point of declining. The fun and destruction of the 80's environment.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Praising Yngwie Malmsteen on this here reputable music blog is detrimental to your credibility: -50 pts for you!


I never praised him, I just said he can play the guitar. Dude, calm down, you're somehow utterly militant. What's with all this hatred? Metal, in itself, is a far more experimental genre than modern pop music - also a genre where people play instruments. If you don't like it, fine, but why do you come here to start spewing anti-metal propaganda?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I can't understand how you can't hear similarities between classical and metal. Just listen to Vivaldi's Four Seasons dude - Summer - 3rd movement. Sounds like muted riffing madness from modern melodic death albums. Classical is written all over metal - of course not all bands, but especially in the following genres: traditional heavy metal (Iron Maiden, Rainbow, Judas Priest), power metal, melodic death metal and some black metal (the symphonic kind, although I'm not very familiar with that).
> That metal is directly related to classical is a fact that can't be argued. Nevermind extremely famous neoclassical metal musicians like Yngwie Malmsteen (granted, I don't like the guy's arrogance but he can play).


He can play. . .'Bach'-- on fast-forward and back. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

I confess I loved his first three _Rising Force_ albums when I was a kid.

"I Am a Viking"-- I _still_ love that song.

_As the shores of my home disappear
I sail over the sea without fear
Dragon ships are charging through the waves
Just want to sail away, far away, into the sea yeah_


----------



## OperaGeek

Marschallin Blair said:


> He can play. . .'Bach'-- on fast-forward and back. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> *I confess I loved his first three Rising Force albums when I was a kid.*


Me, too. Those were the days...

Personally, I don't think a comparison between classical music and metal is really relevant. Although several metal musicians have obviously listened to and been inspired by classical music, it would be idle to pretend that any metal song approaches the depth and complexity of the works of the classical masters. It doesn't, and it isn't really intended to, either.

That doesn't mean, of course, that all metal is primitive and simplistic. Take a band like Symphony X, for example. Their music can be quite complex, and their instrumental skills are very considerable (far exceeding the average metal band). The influence of classical music on their solo sections is also evident at times - a sample (turn down the volume first - this one is LOUD): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8jMKnMJC98#t=236

When you think about it, the name "Symphony X" is quite innovative, too...


----------



## EdwardBast

Listen to this starting at around 13:00 (Venezuela Youth Orchestra, Dudamel)






It is from the first movement of Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony using doubled brass (well, doubled everything). Adding in the gongs, that is a lot of metal. A heavy load of metal. Deafening.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

OperaGeek said:


> Me, too. Those were the days...
> 
> Personally, I don't think a comparison between classical music and metal is really relevant. Although several metal musicians have obviously listened to and been inspired by classical music, it would be idle to pretend that any metal song approaches the depth and complexity of the works of the classical masters. It doesn't, and it isn't really intended to, either.
> 
> That doesn't mean, of course, that all metal is primitive and simplistic. Take a band like Symphony X, for example. Their music can be quite complex, and their instrumental skills are very considerable (far exceeding the average metal band). The influence of classical music on their solo sections is also evident at times - a sample (turn down the volume first - this one is LOUD): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8jMKnMJC98#t=236
> 
> When you think about it, the name "Symphony X" is quite innovative, too...


No, metal isn't in the league of Wagner. Clearly.

The emotional resonances can be similar though-- at least for me. I still love it, as I love anything that theatrical, dramatic, over-the-top, blitzkrieging, and heroic. . . no matter how campy or sophomoric.

True story: I was a kid and didn't have a car yet. I wanted to see Yngwie Malmsteen for his _Trilology _tour when it came to the California Theater in San Diego. None of my older friends with cars wanted to go, so my dad took me and my friends. Saxon opened up the show. My dad loved it: the hammy pose-and-posturings, the infinite-and-endless pentatonic buzz-sawing guitar solos, the opening of Yngwie's set with the fog coming in from the wings of the stage and Orff's "Fortune: Empress of the World" coming on to the loud speakers. _Pure ham._ Of course, at that time, I ate it up _en serio_. My dad was amused with my friends and I with our starry-eyed hero-worhip. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. . . Ahhhhhhhhh, my father. What does _he_ know? Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.


----------



## Morimur

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I never praised him, I just said he can play the guitar. Dude, calm down, you're somehow utterly militant. What's with all this hatred? Metal, in itself, is a far more experimental genre than modern pop music - also a genre where people play instruments. If you don't like it, fine, but why do you come here to start spewing anti-metal propaganda?


I ain't propagating no metal hatred, dog. I is simply exercising ma freedom of speech! Chill!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Lope de Aguirre said:


> I ain't propagating no metal hatred, dog. I is simply exercising ma freedom of speech! Chill!


These debates are an utter waste of time. Someone should continue posting things which actually have to do with the thread. And the dog is you - I never took cheap shots, dude, I was commenting on the fact that what you posted was not relevant to the topic at hand. I came to classical through the route of metal and there are plenty of talented musicians in that field. Music is not only about writing notes on a page, it's about expression and there were plenty of guitarists in this field who were very good at that, imho.


----------



## Morimur

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> These debates are an utter waste of time. Someone should continue posting things which actually have to do with the thread. And the dog is you.


Can I be an Akita Inu? Maw favorite!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Can I be an Akita Inu? Maw favorite!


Yes, yes you can. Hehe.


----------



## Torkelburger

> Response 1: You are right. The strength of the relation is somewhat irrelevant. Metal is, in fact, somewhat rooted in classical music - just like pretty much everything else we hear nowadays.


But again, some more than others. Its a spectrum. Rap, Top 40, Modern Country...towards the lower end of the spectrum. Metal would not be. But jazz would be higher in the spectrum than metal, and so forth.


> Response 4: Yes, there is theory in learning a scale one way or another - this should have no comparison, however, to formal classical training.


It's not just theory. It takes practice to learn to play an instrument with a certain level of dexterity. And a lot of it. I know, I know, I know...YOU and everyone YOU know could play the guitar like a pro just after picking it up for five minutes, but the 99% rest of us loggerheads who have tried and couldn't, feel that what I initially said about people comparing the dexterity required to perform metal music when compared to other popular genres reminds them of the dexterity required to perform classical music is valid. Just because there are a ton of super-difficult classical pieces much more difficult than any metal piece of music does not negate this comparison. Sorry.


> Completely disagree that Iron Maiden was remotely "cognizant of a very detailed theory in the history of western music" - or at least, not without citation.


No one needs citations for Debussy or Davis being knowledgable of modal theory in music. And even if there weren't any, doesn't mean they didn't know. I don't need a citation when *the music is right there, plain as day*. It's not like I just stated it. The proof is in the music. SOMEBODY wrote *STRICT* modal music using several modes at different times during a 3 minute piece. No random chromatic notes, no broken rules. SOMEBODY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Contrary to your beliefs which I find totally ridiculous, that is not an easy task. And from your earlier incorrect comment on modes regarding exploiting diminished fifths, it's pretty reasonable to dismiss your opinion on the ease of modal composition. Modal composition is not self-evident and easy as pie. And this is not a case of monkeys typing on a typewriter and just by chance typing a coherent sentence either.

I've seen it before plenty of times. People who don't know theory and just use their ear, always have the non-theory junk in there. There would be a couple wrong notes here and there. There would be a broken rule here and there. But we don't see that here.


> Of course, they ARE subconsciously using modes - but that's simply because the simple major scale would never serve the genre very well.


Baloney. I too know a ton of guitar players and guitar teachers, many of them metal players. The students know modes and the teachers teach modes. Guitar magazines regularly publish articles regarding modes as well (and have been for decades). I really don't care where they get it from. Iron Maiden could have gotten it from a magazine, stolen it from Black Sabbath, or really picked it from their behinds...all I know is they use it and use it in correct accordance to established classical theory. That's good enough for me to acknowledge that they do so.


> Also, I take issue with the term "compose" being used in these idioms - even though it's just nitpicking. Many of these songs in popular idioms can be written in less time than they even take to listen to - thanks to intensive repeats and the fact that plenty of metal guitarists never even write the stuff down.


That is absolutely NO failing on their part. That's all on you and your arrogance. I will continue to use the word "compose" whether no matter how long it takes to write something, nor if it is written on paper, as neither of those things has absolutely anything at all to do with it.


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## Guest

Believe what you want to believe. I'll just keep on playing simple guitar music with my intuition.


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## MrCello

The third movement from Summer in Vivaldi's Four Seasons.


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## Guest

The 2nd movement from Shostakovich's 11th Symphony has many "metal" moments.


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## thebakerman

not the most metal but my first thought was rite of spring.


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## violadude

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Can I be an Akita Inu? Maw favorite!


Have you seen the movie about Hachiko?


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## perempe

a bit off:
Aida - end of act 2?


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## Alfacharger

About 45 seconds into Simpson's 5th Symphony.






or all of Ruggles's Suntreader.


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## Torkelburger

Kudos for the Robert Simpson!!! (Not the "metal" metaphor necessarily but just great music!) I was wanting to do a thread on the Composer Guestbooks for him as he is incredible and one of my absolute favorite composers of the last fifty years, but I do not like the quality of the youtube uploads (other than the 3rd symphony, and I guess this part of the 5th is ok). But man, the others sound rough. WelleszTheatre (I think) had some great uploads but they got taken down a long time ago. The box set of his complete symphonies is an absolute must have. Highly, highly recommended. God I hope his music makes a comeback in the concert hall someday.


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## Lord Lance

Boult's Recording of Beethoven's Seventh with The London Philharmonic Orchestra. Mind-blowing first movement. The entire first movement.


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## LarryShone

Night on a Bare Mountain perhaps?


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## Joris

This?


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## Guest

How about Bruckner? Third movement, 3rd symphony?

Orawa by Kilar?


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## DeepR

As for non-orchestral music: check out some of the more uptempo, heavy and intense piano Etudes by Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Prokofiev etc. ... much more exciting, dynamic and awesome than metal will ever be.


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## LarryShone

To be honest you can keep metal. I like music not noise. Horses for courses I suppose.


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## Cheyenne

Whenever I need to convince someone that classical music is more than serene salon tunes, I use Rudolph Barshai's String Orchestra adaptation of the 15th movement of Prokofiev's Visions Fugitivies: 



 Within a minute _that_ prejudice is exterminated.

As for longer works: nothing beats the organ in Vaughan Williams' Sinfonia Antartica. Many organ works could qualify! Messiaen's Apparition de l'Église éternelle should give those metalheads an aural beating..


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## SONNET CLV

Itullian said:


> Leifs Saga symphony


Indeed, the Leif _Saga Symphony_ features a moment where metal shields are thwacked.

http://unsungsymphonies.blogspot.com/2011/01/ogress-of-war-leifs-saga-symphony.html

I thought immediately of Glenn Branca's Symphony No. 1 ... though some of you might not consider that a "classical" piece at all.









Of course, the indisputable _most_ "metal" moment in classical music has to be this:


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## Andreas

How about the coda of the Shostakovich 11? Not sure if anyone would consider it metal, though. But it's big.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

F. J. Haydn - Symphony No. 45 in F-Sharp minor, 1st Movement:






Symphony No. 39 in G minor, 4th movement:






(at 11:21)

Overture to The Seasons:





Michael Haydn, Symphony No. 29 in D minor, 1st movement:






Requiem in C minor: 




W. A. Mozart: Symphony No. 25 in G minor - 1st movement: 





Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphony No. 2 in D Major, 1st movement:





Symphony No. 3 in E-Flat Major, 'Eroica', 4th movement:




(especially at 4:07 and the music leading up to it)

Symphony No. 5 in C minor, 1st movement:





Hector Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique - 5th movement 




(at 3:20)

Richard Wagner: The Flying Dutchman - Overture


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## Dutchman

Mussorgsky's Night on bald mountain. Also some parts from Pictures at an exhibition.


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## Badinerie

Metal lovers should hear Circenses from Respighi's Feste Romane. Pure headbangin stuff. Including some big Spinal Tap notes and a big finish! This version


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## Guest

The Leifs Saga Symphony drives me nuts. The few Leifs fans here seem to all love it, and I feel like I'm the only one that is bothered by the first movement's non-stop abrupt loud chords. Not my favorite of his, tbh, mostly cuz I feel like I'm listening to "DUN....DUN..DUN......DUN DUN...DUN.....DUN..." for half of it.


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## PeterPowerPop

Whenever I listen to Janáček's _Sinfonietta_, I think "This is heavy metal, played by an orchestra":

*Leoš Janáček - Sinfonietta* (1926)





And when I listen to the third movement of Prokofiev's Piano Sonata No. 7, I think "This out-riffs most metal riffs":

*Sergei Prokofiev: Piano Sonata No. 7 in B flat major, Op. 83* (1942) *- III. Precipitato*


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## PeterPowerPop

And two more...

*Modest Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition* (orchestrated by Maurice Ravel) *- XIV. The Hut on Fowl's Legs (Baba-Yagá)*





*Modest Mussorgsky: Night on Bald Mountain*





*Update:* I've just discovered Dutchman had already mentioned these two works (in Post #143). Thanks, Dutchman!


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## fjf

Any Bruckner symphony is a strong contender


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