# The Character of Musical Styles



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Some say classical music is divinely inspired and rock n' roll is the devil's music. I don't quite agree, but I do think different kinds of music appeal to different aspects of the personality.

The ancient Greeks personified different aspects of the self in their Gods. These two opposing forces can be looked at as two sides of the same coin, they exist in relation to each other. For example Apollo and Dionysus. Some basic knowledge of Greek mythology may be required to understand this thread. 

I see classical music as essentially the music of Apollo and rock n roll as the music of Dionysus. 

Jazz in my view is closer to the Dionysus side of the spectrum and prog rock is closer to Apollo's side. These of course are generalizations and exceptions occur. 

This is a thread to discuss any of these different aspects of different styles of music and how they relate to our personalities. You don't have to use my mythological analogy, whatever works for you. Do you agree with the premise? How do you perceive the differences in style? Or is it all just 'music'? Do you think all major music genres have value, or something you can relate to, or do you only recognize certain styles as valid?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I don't know much about gods and devils, but I do know that there is music I enjoy in many genres: classical, jazz, rock, blues, world, folk ... As Duke Ellington suggested: "There are two kinds of music: good music, and the other kind." Ellington points out no genre types in his comment, and I'll second that.

As for Dionysus and Apollo as music critics, it seems to me that the best of our music, whatever the style, features elements of both, which Plato would suggest is a fine balance and how it should be as an achievement of "the good". Note that symphonies tend to examine all aspects of a theme, one could say both the Apollo nature and the Dionysus nature of the theme. Shorter works, such as Chopin Preludes or Bach Preludes and Fugues may look at only one aspect or the other, but in a series (the complete preludes, the complete preludes and fugues....) both elements and more come to the fore. One might suggest the same about a pop, rock, or jazz album; that the number of songs span a wide range of emotions and expressions, hopes and dreams, disappointments and successes. Keep in mind that most of what I know of Dionysus and Apollo come from my studies of classical literature and philosophy rather than of music, so I could be in error.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I think within Classical, Jazz and Rock genres there exists the Apollonian and Dionysian spectrum. I don't see one genre being more one than the other.

Dionysian: Captain Beefheart, John Cage, Ornette Coleman
Appolonian: ABBA, Bach, Ellington


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

One thing I am eager to add to this discussion is the idea I've been throwing around in my head that people can learn to love any music, if they allowed all the social constructs they've built up in their head to unravel. So in that sense, I don't think one type of music appeals to a strict personality type, because I feel a full human being has a fluid personality which changes with mood and emotion.

I believe we can be in control of the moods we feel as well, full free will, and don't believe a full human being operates in a cause and effect manner, internally.

I don't know enough about Greek Mythology to comment on that part of your thread.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think within Classical, Jazz and Rock genres there exists the Apollonian and Dionysian spectrum. I don't see one genre being more one than the other.


Less poetically, we could call it head music, and butt music.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> One thing I am eager to add to this discussion is the idea I've been throwing around in my head that people can learn to love any music, if they allowed all the social constructs they've built up in their head to unravel. So in that sense, I don't think one type of music appeals to a strict personality type, because I feel a full human being has a fluid personality which changes with mood and emotion.
> 
> I believe we can be in control of the moods we feel as well, full free will, and don't believe a full human being operates in a cause and effect manner, internally.
> 
> I don't know enough about Greek Mythology to comment on that part of your thread.


I think the most realistic thing to do is, allow yourself to operate at a lower level of awareness, and use to old saying as words to live by, "live and let live".


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't think of Greek Gods too often when listening to any kind of music unless it's an opera based on one of the ancient myths, or Cygnus X-1, Book 2 by Rush.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

starthrower said:


> I don't think of Greek Gods too often when listening to any kind of music unless it's an opera based on one of the ancient myths, or Cygnus X-1, Book 2 by Rush.


More commonly, I think these things show up less as Greek classicist allusions and more things like critical clichés that certain music is "too cerebral", "brainless", "art-damaged", "lacking soul" etc.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

fbjim said:


> More commonly, I think these things show up less as Greek classicist allusions and more things like critical clichés that certain music is "too cerebral", "brainless", "art-damaged", "lacking soul" etc.


Yeah! I try not to think of any of that stuff and just get lost in the music. But at the same time I'm hearing the skill, brilliance, and discipline that helped to create any accomplished work whether it's King Crimson, Bach, Miles Davis, Aretha Franklin, or whoever. I find jazz improvisation fascinating. A soloist isn't really thinking about anything while creating spontaneous melody. The work to get to that level has already been done in the years of practice, study, thinking and learning on the bandstand while working towards that mastery of the form.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Some interesting replies so far.



Phil loves classical said:


> I think within Classical, Jazz and Rock genres there exists the Apollonian and Dionysian spectrum. I don't see one genre being more one than the other.
> 
> Dionysian: Captain Beefheart, John Cage, Ornette Coleman
> Appolonian: ABBA, Bach, Ellington


For me I think ABBA is a group that is somewhat in between the two opposites (their music has some of the orderliness of classical, mixed with kind of a party care-free vibe).

Early jazz like Reinhardt and Ellington seems very Dionysian to my ears. It is music that is not at all out of place accompanying parties, drinking, dancing etc.

When we get to later fusion things like Holdsworth and Metheny then to my ears it draws closer to Apollonian characteristics.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think if music is composed in such a way that the composer feels it must be a certain way, that is an Apollonian characteristic. If the music is more improvisatory and care free/indeterminate with the approach that is a Dionysian characteristic. 

Music more serious in mood is generally closer to Apollo and more light hearted closer to Dionysus. 

One is not good and the other bad. They are both integral aspects of ourselves. I agree all music contains aspects of both, but I think in different styles one tends to be more dominant over the other. 

Apollo is related to things like the intellect and order. But he is not morally superior to Dionysus. Apollo's temperament is such that if you crossed him, or displeased him he would kill you on a whim. (Sometimes in a very nasty way like skinning you alive). Dionysus on the other hand was about drinking and orgies, however he was a very friendly god, and not uptight at all. If one was travelling alone on the road at night it would be much safer to come across Dionysus than Apollo.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

tdc said:


> Some say classical music is divinely inspired and rock n' roll is the devil's music. I don't quite agree, but I do think different kinds of music appeal to different aspects of the personality.
> 
> The ancient Greeks personified different aspects of the self in their Gods. These two opposing forces can be looked at as two sides of the same coin, they exist in relation to each other. For example Apollo and Dionysus. Some basic knowledge of Greek mythology may be required to understand this thread.
> 
> ...


I think you are being far too reductive in your analysis. Within each genre, Classical, Rock, Jazz, etc. there are examples of both Apollonian and Dionysian styles or examples. IOW, for you to describe all Jazz or all Rock or all Classical with one of these characterizations you would be wrong since there are examples of lightweight, or humorous, Classical and serious, or cerebral, Rock or Jazz which would fall outside your analysis.

You also seem to think that Jazz and Rock can not be ordered or divinely inspired.

Basically, I disagree with you premise 100%.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I think you are being far too reductive in your analysis. Within each genre, Classical, Rock, Jazz, etc. there are examples of both Apollonian and Dionysian styles or examples. IOW, for you to describe all Jazz or all Rock or all Classical with one of these characterizations you would be wrong since there are examples of lightweight, or humorous, Classical and serious, or cerebral, Rock or Jazz which would fall outside your analysis.
> 
> You also seem to think that Jazz and Rock can not be ordered or divinely inspired.
> 
> Basically, I disagree with you premise 100%.


It appears you misread the post(s) for one I started off by rejecting the 'divinely inspired' and 'devil's music' dichotomy, I also stated:

"I agree all music contains aspects of both, but I think in different styles one tends to be more dominant over the other."

and:

"These of course are generalizations and exceptions occur."

However, you are still free to disagree with the premise 100%. I'm interested in different perspectives in this thread.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

There are some styles that I think different aspects than the Apollo/Dionysus dichotomy are more relevant. 

For example I think fundamentally the styles of heavy metal* and punk music are related (but not limited to) Mars the god of war. Both punk and metal I think generally are counterculture type styles that are in a kind of battle with wrongs they see in society. These styles are not primarily concerned about strictly ordered sounds or Dionysian elements, they seek to challenge prevailing norms.

*Here I'm referring to bands like Black Sabbath and Megadeth. Not bands like Motley Crue or KISS, the latter bands in my view are closer to classic rock.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

For the record I think all music that is great and sounds inspired (regardless of genre) is in a sense 'divinely inspired'. It certainly does not come solely from the intellect, and where artistic genius comes from is not well understood.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes, on reflection I think a fair amount of music has the pair of Venus(love)/Mars(war) as the dominant characteristics. The blues for example, seems rooted largely in the area of love and loss. 

(I believe Monteverdi composed some Madrigals with that concept (love/war) in mind.)

Some music becomes kind of sappy and anodyne, this could reflect something that is perhaps too far imbalanced towards Venus. Other music may be very strident or even 'demonic', this could be an example of Mars unbalanced.

I'm just throwing out ideas here. Some may be off the mark, or just partially accurate.


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## YusufeVirdayyLmao (Nov 13, 2021)




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## YusufeVirdayyLmao (Nov 13, 2021)

Wait who fd my time stamps??

Fixed now lol


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Captainnumber36 said:


> One thing I am eager to add to this discussion is the idea I've been throwing around in my head that people can learn to love any music, if they allowed all the social constructs they've built up in their head to unravel. So in that sense, I don't think one type of music appeals to a strict personality type, because I feel a full human being has a fluid personality which changes with mood and emotion.
> 
> I believe we can be in control of the moods we feel as well, full free will, and don't believe a full human being operates in a cause and effect manner, internally.


I agree with your first paragraph here. A key for me was learning how to question where my instinctual, intuitive, emotional reactions come from, and I soon realized that many of them are borne from ignorance and reactions against the unknown, the new, and the foreign. After I realized that, I also realized that familiarity with any genre was really the key for being able to appreciate and enjoy them. Maybe there are some genres we'll hear for the first time and immediately be attracted to, but acquired tastes are no less tastes and are often even more rewarding as we have to put forth some effort to get there. I definitely agree that humans are not fixed personalities and that, to paraphrase Whitman, we contain multitudes. Most "tastes" are merely the result of humans limiting ourselves to one or a few possibilities out of ever way we could be. 

As for your second paragraph, I think that's more dubious. I'm pretty convinced that humans obey causality like all physical matter does. That doesn't mean we aren't capable of change or can't control our moods/emotions, it merely means that change and control can be explained by causal forces; though I'm basically a compatibilist, which means I think free will and determinism are compatible with each other and it merely comes down to our definitions and understandings of each.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm more with those saying that the Apollo/Dionysus dichotomy exists more within genres than between them, and within those genres exists in greatly varying mixtures depending on the composers/artists we're talking about. I think when trying to generalize about huge umbrella genres with thousands of artists/composers there are too many exceptions to make such generalizations useful. I think one way in which you can see the tension between the "heart" and the "head" approaches to music is in the genre of rock itself, where the early 70s saw the influence of The Beatles and The Rolling Stones split between the prog and psychedelic rock artists that wanted to push forward with the more progressive and arty ideas; and the punk and hard rock bands that wanted to either go back to the garage rock, blues and R&B-based early music. That tension has existed in the genre ever since, and each side has had their turns in the spotlight. Same thing happened with metal when Metallica tried to fuse the "headier" technical aspects of Maiden and Priest with the "heartier" punky aspects of Motorhead and their ilk. I'm sure such tensions exist in classical music as well; maybe we can see the war of the romantics as something similar, though it would be hard to decide which side was which there. 

Another way of thinking of this is what Daniel Kahnemann calls the "fast and slow" methods of thought, with the "slow" side being deliberate and rational and the "fast" side being intuitive and instinctual. Music (and most art, for that matter) can and does appeal to both, and can be made by relying on both to varying degrees. Which we place more importance on will come down in large part to personality, and most of us are going to be a mix. Most of us do not care for art that completely fails to move us emotionally, but we also have reservations about any art that seems to lack any intellectual substance or craft, which may help (at least partly) explain why a "genre" like pornography is so looked down on even though it's perfectly suited for appealing to at least one aspect of our instinctual side.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

fbjim said:


> Less poetically, we could call it head music, and butt music.


I don't it's exactly the same thing, because there's head music that is definitely not about the sense of balance and beauty that is associated to what's considered as "apollonian". And to your distinction I'd add also "heart music".


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

tdc said:


> Early jazz like Reinhardt and Ellington seems very Dionysian to my ears. It is music that is not at all out of place accompanying parties, drinking, dancing etc.


for Ellington it depends, he had dance music and "raucous" numbers like Daybreak express or Koko but he also had things like Come Sunday or On a turquoise cloud or Le sucrier velours or Fleurette africaine or The single petal of a rose and many more contemplative and quiet pieces. Altough very often there's also a clear romantic element, so I'm not sure.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

tdc said:


> Music more serious in mood is generally closer to Apollo and more light hearted closer to Dionysus.


I don't think it's necessarily true. Between certain pieces of Mozart and Haydn and certain expressionist violent works of the twentieth century (or even late romantic music in the 19th century) I have no doubt that the apollonian pieces are more light hearted.

(an example of something not light-hearted at all)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I think you are being far too reductive in your analysis. Within each genre, Classical, Rock, Jazz, etc. there are examples of both Apollonian and Dionysian styles or examples


I'm not sure I can think of any apollonian rock music, at least right now. Any example?
And onestly the very spirit of rock music is undoubtedly dyonisiac, the dance ryhthm, the distorted guitar, the screaming singers, the sense of excitement. Rock music is body music, sweat and heart, sometimes it can be cerebral but seriously I can't think of anything that suggests the kind of balance and serene beauty of something like this






Sometimes there are musicians associated with rock music that can go to a degree in that direction, like this






but I don't really consider it rock anymore, altough it's associated with it because in this case Nico was the singer of the Velvet Underground.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

norman bates said:


> I'm not sure I can think of any apollonian rock music, at least right now. Any example?
> And onestly the very spirit of rock music is undoubtedly dyonisiac, the dance ryhthm, the distorted guitar, the screaming singers, the sense of excitement. Rock music is body music, sweat and heart, sometimes it can be cerebral but seriously I can't think of anything that suggests the kind of balance and serene beauty of something like this


If you're thinking Appolonian in terms of intellectual, certainly a lot of prog rock fits that description. If you mean it in terms of "balance and serene beauty" there are perhaps fewer examples, but they also exist:


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

all spiritualness aside, from playing different genres I believe they differ mostly by their "time feel". As I've said, I play local classical recitals, lead a jazz trio for 20 years and played in local rock bands, so I have covered alot of musical ground in my life..

In jazz, blues, and most rock there is an element of "swing" feel, meaning that the 8th notes are not strictly even, but somewhere between strait and dotted. The amount of "swing" is in the hands of the player. I swing hard, but that is just because I grew up playing hard swinging bop, and swinging hard is not "better" or "worse" it just is.

Classical music and some rock is played in strait time. But even in that, there are variances. If you play with a player from the Cleveland school, they will be very precise while someone from the Russian school may play with the time at the end of an idea, so even in strict time genres you still have to listen

There is another difference between classical music and rock...it is the personal energy you are bringing to it. This is sort of an "intangible" but it is the biggest difference between playing classical music and rock. I'm a gregarious fun loving crazy musician. Natural born rock player, really. but at a certain level, musicians play their personalities. So to play rock, you have to have some "kid" in you or you just dont sound convincing. The truth is that is you haven't ever really done anything crazy like having a slight misunderstanding with 156 Mexican cops after a 3 day tequila binge you might not be able to play rock

there are alot of differences between genres. Things that are idiomatic to that genre and stuff like that. But to play a genre right, you have to start with the right time feel and if you dont have it, then you better get it in your soul is what they say


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