# What do you say to someone who says opera voices sound like screeching?



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I've done 15 opera education talks at Toastmasters. A couple of people complain that particularly sopranos sound like they are screeching. Admittedly that does occasionally happen but never in my examples. I am trying to figure out how to differentiate a trained voice from screeching. Perhaps several recorded examples along with screeming, a violin, a flute?? Suggestions please.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

They would hear the screech of steam coming from my ears. 

If you have a violin and can play, to use it as an example may be the best solution if you have no video resources.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Play them a mezzo. Or a baritone.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I've done 15 opera education talks at Toastmasters. A couple of people complain that particularly sopranos sound like they are screeching. Admittedly that does occasionally happen but never in my examples.


and what were the examples?


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Mrs Hermit says the same to almost any soprano in any genre. It is the high pitch of the voice that seems to irritate her the most. 

I'm tempted to say "so be it" - she didn't like olives when we first met and now she loves them. Maybe with time she'll change her mind (although I think it is changing from 'don't like' to 'cannot abide' sporanos!)


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Examples: Eileen Farrell, Joan Sutherland, Ponselle, Nilsson, Flagstad, Varnay come to mind.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> What do you say to someone who says opera voices sound like screeching?


"Get out of my life"


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Examples: Eileen Farrell, Joan Sutherland, Ponselle, Nilsson, Flagstad, Varnay come to mind.


the recording must be to blame... should have been heard live, or Maria Callas used as the example, her voice never sounds like screeching.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I would honestly tell them, "Then opera is not for you." -- Because if that is the way they hear it -- the higher the voice, vibrato is usually 'more' and certainly faster -- then opera _is not_ for them.

I'm used to it, but there is a lot still of vibrato in operatic vocal production which can more than quickly turn me away -- and just as quickly have me turning it off.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

My guess is that they are using "screeching" to mean abnormal, strange, different than they are used to. They are not talking just about bad technique and bad singing but about typical or even great singing.

Trained operatic singing includes many techniques not used as much/in the same ways in more popular voice forms. It could be the vibrato, trills, more ornamentation overall, greater focus on vowels, head voice, just higher notes overall, whatever. 


You could acknowledge that operatic singing is different from popular forms, and that that is much of the draw. A wider range of vocal sounds means a wider range of emotional information can be conveyed. 

Note that such singing represents great control, which is unexpected because most of the time one hears similar sounds in other musical forms hey are the result of straining and, yes, screeching.

Then I would probably point out that sopranos aren't all of opera, that there are a lot of mezzos, tenors, baritones, etc. that don't sing as high and can be less off-putting to newcomers. Plus all the lovely music, sparkly costumes, etc.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

PetrB said:


> I would honestly tell them, "Then opera is not for you." -- Because if that is the way they hear it -- high voice, usually the more and faster the vibrato as well -- _is not_ for them.


I might say that "Then opera _may not be_ for you" but would likely add "but it is also possible you have heard what you like yet". Not everyone is going to love everything on first listen, and opera is a very broad genre, full of richness. Someone may be seduced by the tenors and the chorus and then realize what the sopranos are adding to the overall work.

Sometimes context - often missing when listening to stand-alone arias - can help appreciation.


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## Roland (Mar 13, 2013)

Perhaps you need to find someone who is a fan of rock and roll or, perhaps, heavy metal to give you a few examples of some untrained tenor voice that screams out his unintelligible lyrics. Look for a few of those examples on Youtube. Keep the best example you find on file in your computer. If someone complains about screeching voices in opera, play a few seconds of that song on file and say "This is screeching." Then play your opera example again and ask your audience member if they can perceive a pure, beautiful, sustained tone from the trained opera singer. Then talk about your sister and tell your audience about the years of training that go into being able to produce that sound reliably. Then talk about how some of your enjoyment of opera comes from standing in awe of anyone who can produce these remarkable, pure, beautiful, sustained tones.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I've done 15 opera education talks at Toastmasters. A couple of people complain that particularly sopranos sound like they are screeching. Admittedly that does occasionally happen but never in my examples. I am trying to figure out how to differentiate a trained voice from screeching. Perhaps several recorded examples along with screeming, a violin, a flute?? Suggestions please.


What usually works like a charm is the Mad scene from Lucia with Beverly Sills singing and a glass armonica in place of a flute accompanying her.

I have been to a lecture at an opera venue where they used that example and the place was rapt. It would be hard for almost anyone to consider that particular scene a screecher.


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## satoru (May 29, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I've done 15 opera education talks at Toastmasters. A couple of people complain that particularly sopranos sound like they are screeching. Admittedly that does occasionally happen but never in my examples. I am trying to figure out how to differentiate a trained voice from screeching. Perhaps several recorded examples along with screeming, a violin, a flute?? Suggestions please.


 Hmm, difficult issue. Some people are more sensitive in the high sound. Too much sound pressure there and they get ear/head aches. On the other hand, many of us old people have hearing declining in the same range. As I lost my high pitch hearing, many old recordings and some modern soprano recordings got a lot easier to listen to (also, I got better headphones, DAC, etc, thanks to more income than a grad student). On poor equipment, high range was quite painful listen too, to be honest. 
Also, there are other factors. As a classic lover, you must have "trained" your ears: being able to differentiate screeching to singing and many nuance within singing, is one of the result of your training.

On your other post, you listed some example for the singers. They are belong to older generations, when reaching to the end of the theater was an essential to be a singer. Nowadays, by help of mic and speaker, singers tend not to reach the end of theater by their sheer raw voice. They could have done so with small sacrifice of the edges goes rough a little a bit. May be this is connected to the loss in "power". One soprano singer from older generation, who's voice doesn't show any rough edges at the highest range, is Leontyne Price (I love to learn more about singers like her). Try her recordings to see the reaction of the people. I'm curious for the result, too 

By the way, upon my friends request, I attended a couple Toastmasters meetinng/presentation. It's been quite fan. Way to go!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In answer to OP: "God Bless You!"

Never get upset over musical issues. It's not worth it.:tiphat:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Of all the voice types, soprano is my least favourite, particularly dramatic soprano. I rarely like big voice of the kind you quoted and obviously adore, Seattleoperafan, So I suggest that rather than just play people examples of this voice type, you DO mix it up and play a good range of voice types, including sopranos with smaller more lyrical voices (I'm thinking Emma Kirkby, Ileana Cotrubas, Kathleen Battle, Karina Gauvin, Roberta Invernizzi, to quote some of my own favourite sopranos).


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Those 'screech' sayers may be linguistically confusing a screech with a scream. eh?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

PetrB said:


> I would honestly tell them, "Then opera is not for you." -- Because if that is the way they hear it -- the higher the voice, vibrato is usually 'more' and certainly faster -- then opera _is not_ for them.


And 9 out of 10 times you would be entirely wrong, because most of people who say operatic singing sounds like screeching didn't hear an opera in their entire lifetime but simply prefer to express some cartoon-based opinion than to confess they don't know anything about the subject, thus appearance of them being repulsed by something they never approached.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Of all the voice types, soprano is my least favourite, particularly dramatic soprano. I rarely like big voice of the kind you quoted and obviously adore, Seattleoperafan, So I suggest that rather than just play people examples of this voice type, you DO mix it up and play a good range of voice types, including sopranos with smaller more lyrical voices (I'm thinking Emma Kirkby, Ileana Cotrubas, Kathleen Battle, Karina Gauvin, Roberta Invernizzi, to quote some of my own favourite sopranos).


This is very good advice. Kathleen Battle, in fact, was one of the very first operatic sopranos I ever heard, and to me her voice sounded almost unbelievably pure, like moonbeams (if that makes any sense!) -- not "screechy" at all. Also, Mamascarlatti's earlier suggestion of playing mezzo-sopranos and baritones is a very good one, considering that these voice types are more like the natural speaking range and for that reason probably more "relatable" to the opera novice.


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

sharik said:


> the recording must be to blame... should have been heard live, or Maria Callas used as the example, her voice [strike]never[/strike] always sounds like screeching.


Fixed that for you.

Seriously, though, people perceive different timbres in different ways. There are certainly plenty of sopranos that sound wonderful to me (e.g., Natalie Desay) and others that sound absolutely horrid to me (Callas being one of them). There's no enforcing personal taste. If I was faced with that question, I'd accept that person's opinion, and perhaps suggest they focus on operas with more baritone/bass roles. I really don't think attacking them for what you perceive as their ignorance (which was not what you were intending on doing, OP, but is certainly what some others have suggested...) is either terribly productive or helpful.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

These people are wrong!...er , well I guess some sopranos are kinda screechy. I suggest you just batter them into submission until they understand life-enhancing goodness of the screech. (i.e. our beloved sopranos.) When we listen to opera singers for the very first time we are being challenged, and I think you should make that point.

Perhaps at first they might prefer the pretty tunes (flower duet, porgi amor etc) but what ultimately sells the soprano voice is the _big tune_, while singing something emotional and dramatically meaningful. That's when it connects to our inner being.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Alexander said:


> ... but what ultimately sells the soprano voice is the _big tune_, while singing something emotional and dramatically meaningful. That's when it connects to our inner being.


Not to me, mate, if that means it's sung by a dramatic soprano whose voice I don't like. I prefer beauty and purity of tone.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> I prefer beauty and purity of tone.


The problem with purity is that some voices have been purified to the extent of being blank.

LIKE EMMA KIRKBY


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

peterb said:


> There are certainly plenty of sopranos that sound wonderful to me (e.g., Natalie Desay) and others that sound absolutely horrid to me (Callas being one of them)


something wrong with your audio system.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Not to me, mate, if that means it's sung by a dramatic soprano whose voice I don't like. I prefer beauty and purity of tone.


however, there are things that cannot be judged according to our liking; classical music is a *religion* the sacred names and objects of which may not be questioned by anyone.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Alexander said:


> the pretty tunes (flower duet, porgi amor etc) but what ultimately sells the soprano voice is the _big tune_, while singing something emotional and dramatically meaningful. That's when it connects to our inner being.


Porgi amor is as emotional as, say, Es gibt ein Reich. What sells a soprano is her talent and skills to express whatever she should be expressing, be it lyric or dramatic.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I kind of expected people would leap to the defence of _porgi amor_, not that it needs any defending. My point is that it's the more demanding (on the ear) vocal performances that will ultimately get some to believe in the music. I don't want to merely force somebody to admit some opera sounds pretty, but I guess that might be a starting point.

(It's been said before that I don't know when to stop digging) ;-)


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

sharik said:


> something wrong with your audio system.


Your opinion is rejected for being objectively wrong.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

peterb said:


> Your opinion is rejected for being objectively wrong.


what is your system then?


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

sharik said:


> what is your system then?


[Deleted my response to be more in keeping with the right way to react to this.]


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It is just a subjective judgement. May their opinions run off you like water off a Rhinemaiden's skin.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Examples: Eileen Farrell, Joan Sutherland, Ponselle, Nilsson, Flagstad, Varnay come to mind.


Flagstad? FLAGSTAD!!??


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Badinerie said:


> Flagstad? FLAGSTAD!!??


Flagstad was received with more enthusiasm than any other singer.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Beautiful voice. Made Wagners musical landscapes more habitable for a great many listeners.


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## csolomonholmes (Nov 18, 2013)

Ok. I'm stumped. What do you say?


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

I change the subject: if one's idea of singing is someone singing through his/her nose into a microphone nothing I can say will alter that.

At the same time, I have had (to me) surprising success introducing some folks to Italian opera using DVDs to give them the total theatrical experience.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

JohnGerald said:


> I change the subject: if one's idea of singing is someone singing through his/her nose into a microphone nothing I can say will alter that.
> 
> At the same time, I have had (to me) surprising success introducing some folks to Italian opera using DVDs to give them the total theatrical experience.


Which DVDs have worked so far?


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm more of a fan of bass heavy operas, but most sopranos don't bother me. Dawn Upshaw is actually one of my favorite opera sings in any category, so there's that. I think it matters how it was recorded. As far as experience has shown, most microphones are only great for certain frequencies. Then it's a matter of who mixed it, or mastered it. Any singer can sound bad, if they used the wrong equipment for their voice.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> Which DVDs have worked so far?


Natalie, the Donizetti comedies, starting with the Netrebko, Villazon Elisir, followed by the Fille du Regiment with Dessay and JDF and the Don Pasquuale with Netrebko.

John


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

JohnGerald said:


> Natalie, the Donizetti comedies, starting with the Netrebko, Villazon Elisir, followed by the Fille du Regiment with Dessay and JDF and the Don Pasquuale with Netrebko.
> 
> John


Oh yes, the first two are a lot of fun - Villazon juggling oranges, Natalie doing her ironing!. Less keen on the Met Don Pasquale; I find it rather a cruel opera and John del Carlo leaves a lot to be desired, although Anna makes up for it in vivacity and charm.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

play them some heavy metal and ask how they would describe that?


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I will add to it though, a bad soprano hurts the ears worse than a bad tenor. Something about their frequencies can be hard on the ears if they don't have good control of their voices.


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