# 60's Jazz: the modern classical genre



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Since I've gotten the hang of Modern Classical, I revisited some 60's Jazz albums I have, and I found it is really a close relative to Modern Classical, and shed a lot of new light on the music. The harmonies are just as adventurous. It's as if the division between Classical and Jazz became less distinct in that era, both throwing out older conventions at that point.

Bill Evans' Sunday at the Vanguard, Mingus's Mingus Mingus..., Dolphy's Out There and Out to Lunch, Hill's Point of Departure, Braxton's Live in '76. They are just as complex as Classical, with polytonality, shifting between modes, extended chords, and just plain atonality.

My feeling is that era in Jazz was more accepted by the established Jazz community than Classical was by the Classical community. Do you agree? Why's this?


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

"Third Stream" jazz is it was called, blending contemporary classical music and serialism with jazz, flourished in the late 50s and 60s.

Actualy the same thing happened to me. I've lately returned to a bunch of jazz that I found un-listenable five years ago, such as free jazz... but now that I've listened to Ives and Webern a thousand times, I find this kind of jazz a lot easier to listen to. An exciting realm of music to explore, like Anthony Braxton, a prolific genuis, who has about 500 albums. Also, Cecil Taylor RIP.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

I haven't listened to too much of it, but it is definitely on my to-do list. Mingus' Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is AMAZING, and Bitches Brew is excellent too.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Some Gunther Schuller third stream organized chaos (1961) for the adventurous listener. I believe there will eventually be a resurgence of interest in some of his classically influenced experimental works that include room for improvisation. This album is also unusual because it has guitarist Jim Hall playing with the Modern Jazz Quartet. Then more very free-sounding string quartet arrangements by Schuller. I like his writing & settings very much. Both Ornette Coleman and Eric Dolphy (also on flute and bass clarinet) on sax! Eric was everywhere in the 1960s, including as part of the avant-garde... Everyone wanted to play with him because he could play anything and was not a conventional improviser. He was incredibly gifted and unique.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I've always loved the 1950's Miles Davis Quintet (with Coltrane), but recently I've spent a lot of time listening to the 1960's Quintet with Shorter, Hancock, Williams and Carter. I've also been listening to the musical transition from the quintet to the experiments of "In a Silent Way," "Bitches Brew," and "Jack Johnson."


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Even though I listen to modern classical with relative ease, Dolphy's _Out To Lunch_ has never really appealed to me. I like his actual playing and that he played the bass clarinet which has a marvellous sound, but that tangent in jazz is hit and miss for me and I feel the peak is more with Thelonious Monk and Bud Powell than with Dolphy.

Because jazz splintered a few ways by the mid-to-late '60s I find myself listening more favourably to something like Dave Pike or Cal Tjader.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

I must confess that I have a much easier time with Modern Classical than with "third stream organized chaos." For some reason, Edgar Varese, Leo Ornstein, John Adams and John Cage are just a few examples of modern classical composers I really enjoy, but I want my jazz to be easy and mellow while being fully improvisational. It probably doesn't make sense, but somehow I equate a feeling of comfort and relaxation with jazz that I don't necessarily require with classical. I'm not sure I understand why.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

jegreenwood said:


> I've always loved the 1950's Miles Davis Quintet (with Coltrane), but recently I've spent a lot of time listening to the 1960's Quintet with Shorter, Hancock, Williams and Carter. I've also been listening to the musical transition from the quintet to the experiments of "In a Silent Way," "Bitches Brew," and "Jack Johnson."


Miles never stood still. And he worked with many of the greatest. Following his career opened up so many exciting avenues of jazz for me.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Phil loves classical said:


> Since I've gotten the hang of Modern Classical, I revisited some 60's Jazz albums I have, and I found it is really a close relative to Modern Classical, and shed a lot of new light on the music. The harmonies are just as adventurous. It's as if the division between Classical and Jazz became less distinct in that era, both throwing out older conventions at that point.
> 
> My feeling is that era in Jazz was more accepted by the established Jazz community than Classical was by the Classical community. Do you agree? Why's this?


I think in the '60s (actually, pretty much always; for example, Duke Ellington was influenced by Ravel/Debussy and George Russell's Lydian Concept was classically influenced, citing Ravel also), classical and jazz were feeding off each other or at least influencing each other. I recall Steve Reich saying he had his epiphany while listening to John Coltrane live in his student days, and in the jazz world, Eric Dolphy recorded Varese's Density 21.5.

I don't know if that era back then was more accepted by the jazz community than the classical music of that time was accepted by the classical community. Back in the day, jazz concerts with the biggest draw were Les McCann, Stan Getz, and others in the mainstream, while you'd have to hunt down groups like Sun Ra. The radio station KBCA in LA played some Mingus and Eric Dolphy's God Bless the Child, but it wasn't prominent in their rotation. (I remember the DJ, Chuck Niles, after playing a record, commenting, "I dig Mingus, but sometimes he goes too far.")

I think hard-core/aficianado jazz fans accepted that era just as hard-core classical fans did with that era. At least that's how I saw it in L.A.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> Some Gunther Schuller third stream organized chaos (1961) for the adventurous listener. I believe there will eventually be a resurgence of interest in some of his classically influenced experimental works that include room for improvisation. This album is also unusual because it has guitarist Jim Hall playing with the Modern Jazz Quartet. Then more very free-sounding string quartet arrangements by Schuller. I like his writing & settings very much. Both Ornette Coleman and Eric Dolphy (also on flute and bass clarinet) on sax! Eric was everywhere in the 1960s, including as part of the avant-garde... Everyone wanted to play with him because he could play anything and was not a conventional improviser. He was incredibly gifted and unique.


Brilliant album. Hard to believe it dates from 1961!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't know what the "established jazz community" means? But the 60s is probably my favorite decade in jazz. I like the post-bop music created by the Miles Davis Quintet, as well as the freer music of Ornette Coleman, and Archie Shepp. I also dig Mingus, Dolphy, Bill Evans, Joe Henderson, Bobby Hutcherson, Jackie McLean, Andrew Hill, Roland Kirk, Yusef Lateef, Max Roach, Booker Little, Mal Waldron, Sam Rivers, and many others.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

starthrower said:


> I don't know what the "established jazz community" means? But the 60s is probably my favorite decade in jazz. I like the post-bop music created by the Miles Davis Quintet, as well as the freer music of Ornette Coleman, and Archie Shepp. I also dig Mingus, Dolphy, Bill Evans, Joe Henderson, Bobby Hutcherson, Jackie McLean, Andrew Hill, Roland Kirk, Yusef Lateef, Max Roach, Booker Little, Mal Waldron, Sam Rivers, and many others.


Everyone you mention are giants of modern and free jazz. I wouldn't be without any of them in my collection.


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