# Depression and Music



## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I mentioned in another post that for most of my life I have suffered from depression. At times it is more severe than others but it's kind of always there under the surface. About eight years ago the depression got to the point where the doctor had considered hospitalizing me. It was so weird to be pretty much non-functional. I would look at a form to fill out and I could read it but could not wrap my mind around what I needed to do or how to answer the questions. My wife would leave for work and come back in the door and I would ask her why she was back and the whole day had gone by and for me it seemed like she had just left. I was unable to work for over four months. Thankfully, by God's mercy, I was able to find some help. I found out that my depression is actually a chemical imbalance and is exacerbated by stressful situations and the longer the stress invades the worse the depression becomes. I tried many different anti-depressants and all of them had severe side effects for me. The best medical therapy came from the help of a Chiropractor I used to work for as he was experimenting with FSM (Frequency Specific Micro-current). At first I was skeptical it would help but after about 5 treatments I was significantly better. This set me to researching FSM and discovered a device called Alpha-Stim that's about the size of a Tens unit and bought myself one. I treated myself every day for two hours for a month, then every other day and eventually to once a week and now only as needed. It really helps tremendously and was well worth the investment and has helped keep me from having a relapse. 

Now I said all that just to give some background and also to maybe help others who suffer from depression and are trying to find ways to get relief. It can be very trying and many great men and women have suffered from it including many composers.

To keep on topic though I was wondering if there are others here at TC who suffer from depression and what things you have learned to use to cope? For me music has always been a way for me to cope with depression. As I said in that other thread music helps me "escape" and helps me manage the symptoms of depression. I also have found that taking long hot relaxing baths with music playing is quite soothing and sometimes to add essential oils, like Lavender for instance, into the water and some epsom salts can be very soothing. Or even vaporizing essential oils or getting a massage. Sometimes when I find my mind having difficulty focusing just playing a game of Spider Solitaire can help refocus me.

Of all the different things I do music has been my go to therapy. As much as depression has been a test and trial in my life it has also helped me in peculiar ways. It was not until I had that bout of severe acute depression for four months that I finally "got" Miles Davis. It was like a light came on and I spent hours and hours listening to Miles. I also spent hours listening to Beethoven and sometimes the same pieces many times over every day for a week or more. Music has been a real godsend for me and I'm thankful I live in an age and time where it is so easily available.

I know this post is rather personal and others may not want to or even feel as open to share as I have but for those of you who do it might be of help to others that are experiencing the same thing and trying to cope. It can make a difference and I hope what I have shared may help make a difference for someone here at Talk Classical. Having depression is not in any way an enjoyable experience but knowing you are not alone and others out there suffer also can be helpful and comforting.

Kevin


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Thank you for your very insightful post. I have got a question. One of the symptoms of depression is anhedonia, that is, one ceases to gain pleasure from once favourite activities. Doesn't it mean that, while suffering from depression, one is unable to listen to music with pleasure? Did you have any problems with enjoying the music you were listening to, especially the pieces you used to like?


Best regards, Dr


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Kevin, I'm sorry that you've had to go through so much sadness. It takes great courage and generosity to share your journey as you've done. 
I've never heard of FSM but will certainly research it now. There is someone in my life that may benefit. There's no doubt but that your openness will make a difference for other people. I salute you!
I've also found that the practice of Taoist Tai Chi, with its emphasis on the healing arts (rather than martial arts) is wonderfully soothing and comforting. It becomes like a walking meditation. Just physically feeling better can impact one's overall emotional state, as you've experienced in the bathtub. I call my soaks 'hydro-therapy.' 
Another good thing to do is just laugh. I have seen videos of groups, I think in India, that meet to practice laughing. It starts out forced and artificial and transforms into genuine shared mirth, which has measurable effects on the mind and body. Here's to much happy laughter in your life!


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

DrKilroy said:


> Thank you for your very insightful post. I have got a question. One of the symptoms of depression is anhedonia, that is, one ceases to gain pleasure from once favourite activities. Doesn't it mean that, while suffering from depression, one is unable to listen to music with pleasure? Did you have any problems with enjoying the music you were listening to, especially the pieces you used to like?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Good question Kilroy. My thoughts on this: anhedonia is a common symptom but isn't neccessarily universal for all of those with depression. My other thought is sometimes music can transcend simply being "pleasurable" and hit you on a deeper level....which I believe may be the idea behind, for example, music therapy.

Actually though, my personal experience is a little more of what you describe, which I'll get around to posting when I have a free moment.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

DrKilroy said:


> Thank you for your very insightful post. I have got a question. One of the symptoms of depression is anhedonia, that is, one ceases to gain pleasure from once favourite activities. Doesn't it mean that, while suffering from depression, one is unable to listen to music with pleasure? Did you have any problems with enjoying the music you were listening to, especially the pieces you used to like?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


I understand completely what you are saying Dr. and at the worst point of my depression when I was non-functional that was true. My doctor recommended I do certain things to help me cope and music was one of them. Even though I may not have felt the joy and love for music as I usually do it never-the-less helped me focus my thoughts on something outside of me. He also is the one who suggested taking baths instead of quick showers, to pray or meditate, and to do some breathing exercises. None of these things are cures but only tools to help keep the pillars of my mind stable. I might add that for me the depression was like a weight on my brain and the FSM treatments would allow that to lift temporarily. I would have to treat myself with the Alpha -Stim for a minimum of two hours but there was a tangible actual "lifting" sensation of the oppression on my brain. I don't know how to describe it better than that, but once the lift occurs I can focus better and enjoy things more. I'm at a point now where I only have to use the Alpha-Stim when I notice the symptoms beginning to re-emerge. The longer I go without treating myself the deeper into the depression symptoms I sink again. So I have learned over the last eight years to treat myself before I sink too deep.

I once described depression to a friend of mine that it was like being in a deep, dark well and being able to see the light somewhere above but not being able to reach it. Depression is often mistaken as a feeling of "sadness" like when one feels a loss but that is not how it was for me. Sadness is not how I would describe it but more of a weight of oppression on my brain. As I said my depression was/is a chemical imbalance. Eating properly, and exercise, getting outside into the sun or nature are also useful. I've also found that just letting my wife know when I'm struggling is helpful as well as she makes me put myself on the Alpha-stim even when I don't want to. She has read some books on the subject to help her understand what I go through. Ultimately I don't think people who have never experienced depression can truly understand the depth of darkness of it, but we need those of us around us to know that we are going through it and our actions, or reactions, or inactions have nothing to do with them.

Kevin


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I cannot empathize with your plight  but I commiserate in your grief. Head up! 

Have you considered medical marijuana? It is a wonder drug from God's own pharmacy that is both a mood leveller and a mild euphoric that has been tested on humans around the world for millennia. Like they say on TV, "Ask your doctor about it"


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

As a medical practitioner, brotagonist, I'd advise against marijuana for mood disorders. I am a proponent of it in particular conditions such as severe cancer and terminal conditions where there is severe pain, extreme loss of appetite. However frequent marijuana use can affect motivation, which is one of the last things that a chronically depressed person needs. Add to that the potential side effects of paranoia, hallucinations, and in fact potential worsening of mood. It's not been advocated as a medical treatment for mental illness by the health community.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

^ I don't believe all of that stuff, but you can, if you want to :lol:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

As for me: Fortunately I have not suffered chronic depression. In the past year however I have been dealing with Generalized anxiety disorder as well as PMDD (premenstrual dysphoric disoder). The latter is fortunately under control thanks to hormone medication, but when it was at the worst last winter I did have brief but significant bouts of depression.

I love music and have found a few ways to make it therapeutic for me. However music on the whole hasn't neccessarily been an "escape" or "stress reliever" etc. The ways it did/does help: If I'm feeling very acutely anxious or stressed at work, I have a couple of go-to songs I'll play that help me (Yiruma: River Flows in You, Canon in D, a couple others). Also I like to sometimes use fitting lyrics for journaling purposes

But in other ways, no it hasn't helped me. When I did have the bouts of depression, anhedonia would go along with that for me, and I'd lose interest in about 75% of my music collection. I still could get some enjoyment out of some stalwart favorites though. Also, as much as I love to play piano, it's very difficult for me to play right now. The reason is that I can't just "relax and let go" when I play like some do. I've only played for a year, having no previous musical education beforehand. So I actually need a lot of mental focus to concentrate when I play......and with the chronic anxiety and busy days with work and my family, when it's time to play, I just don't have anything left in the tank to focus.

Things ARE starting to get better though. What's helped me: exercise. Humor. My husband and I have cracked jokes on several occasions about the situation and it may sound odd to some people, but for us it's helped provide some levity to the situation. He's been a great support for me. I've been seeing a psychiatrist monthly for the last six months and I can't say enough about her, she's been wonderful. She's not like some people see psychiatrists, talking to you for ten minutes and throwing medicine at you and sending you on your way. She handles my medication, but she always spends 45 minutes with me and works on therapeutic interventions, helping me make positive changes in my life. I've been doing cognitive behavioral exercises with the journaling and I am finally starting to break through and see some progress there. Also hopeful that my upcoming job change will alleviate some of the chronic external stress I was dealing with which should also get some of the anxiety under control. I took lexapro for a few months which really alleviated the depression, but did nothing for my anxiety, so I've switched to prozac recently and I feel that is starting to benefit me too.

So there ya go.

The alpha stim unit sounds fascinating, I'm very interested in reading more about it.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

brotagonist said:


> ^ I don't believe all of that stuff, but you can, if you want to :lol:


 Thanks, I'll continue to believe what my research has found.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Kevin Pearson said:


> ...FSM (Frequency Specific Micro-current). At first I was skeptical it would help but after about 5 treatments I was significantly better. This set me to researching FSM and discovered a device called Alpha-Stim that's about the size of a Tens unit and bought myself one. I treated myself every day for two hours for a month, then every other day and eventually to once a week and now only as needed. It really helps tremendously and was well worth the investment and has helped keep me from having a relapse.


Shock treatment has certainly come a long way from its inception in pig slaughterhouses. :lol: No, but really:

From Wik: I_talian Professor of neuropsychiatry Ugo Cerletti, who had been using electric shocks to produce seizures in animal experiments, and his colleague Lucio Bini developed the idea of using electricity as a substitute for metrazol in convulsive therapy and, in 1937, experimented for the first time on a person. It was known early on that inducing convulsions aided in helping those with severe schizophrenia. Cerletti had noted a shock to the head produced convulsions in dogs. The idea to use electroshock on humans came to Cerletti when he saw how pigs were given an electric shock before being butchered to put them in an anesthetized state.
_
But really, that sounds intriguing, somewhat like electric acupuncture. Will it get a normal, undepressed person high? I'd like to get one.

After googling "alpha Stim," I found myself on a whole page of interesting biofeedback devices. Certainly a preferable alternative to psychiatric drugs.

Another interesting gadget is Bryon Gysin's Mind Machine, a rotating drum with slits, with a light inside. It can supposedly induce waking hallucinations and fantastic visual patterns.









Bryon Gysin with Dreamachine at Musée des Art Décoratifs, Paris, 1962.










http://amzn.com/B000024A3D


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Sonata said:


> As a medical practitioner, brotagonist, I'd advise against marijuana for mood disorders. I am a proponent of it in particular conditions such as severe cancer and terminal conditions where there is severe pain, extreme loss of appetite. However frequent marijuana use can affect motivation, which is one of the last things that a chronically depressed person needs. Add to that the potential side effects of paranoia, hallucinations, and in fact potential worsening of mood. It's not been advocated as a medical treatment for mental illness by the health community.


Definitely agree. Obviously marijuana may have an overall long-lasting mood elevating effect for some but to suggest it would for most is probably not accurate. Personally, it causes me much laziness, paranoia, and depressed mood the following day. Same for lots of other people I know. Again, not saying it does this to everyone or even most but it certainly has these effects on it's fair share.

As for the depression, I deal with a decent deal of depression. I don't know how to classify mine as mild, moderate or severe but whatever it is, music certainly is a nice treatment. I've never been one to want to take medicine to help my depression. I simply always focus on improving things in my life that would help it that way. While I certainly know chemical imbalances can contribute to depression(the severe next-day depression after massive intakes of alcohol proves this in my opinion), at the same time I believe habitual patterns of negative thinking are as much to blame if not more.


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## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

Thankyou for your introduction to this subject, and for bringing it up. Talking about it helps many people. I struggle with depresion myself, and use medisin for it, and music is udoubtly the best medicin! Often the deep and dark, exept Beethoven symphonies for me. They make me worse. I often wonder why, but I think it has something to do with the pulse, and the use of quite hard punkting of the music (I am not good in musical terminology), often struggeling between classical and romantic periodes, and for me failing in both. I am quite allone in here with this experience I think. It is not a view, it is an experience. They make me sicker. About all other classical music has the opposite effect, I feel bether.

Thanks again for bringing it up, and I will read your and others posts again later. I struggle also with reading, so I must take it in portions


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

Thanks, Kevin, for your willingness to share. 

For my part, I've never had this kind of severe depression. There are times, particularly at the office or in dealing with caregiving for family, when stress induces a kind of "I just don't want to deal with it anymore" depression. Most of the time I can leave this in the office when I go home, but sometimes I find myself worrying when I should be de-stressing at home or with friends. In those times, music is one of the things that can calm me down and help me get my energy back. Having a caring and supporting wife and family is also a big help in these times.

Since stress can affect the body in much the same way as physical pain, I don't doubt that being in a protracted stressful situation will affect your chemical balance and can trigger clinical depression, although I by no means feel this is the only reason for depression. But at any rate, I have little patience for the “it’s all in your head, just get over it” mentality. If you’re hurting, and it doesn’t matter how, and there is a way to ease the pain, you shouldn’t have to feel (or listen to those who say) that you’re weak for resorting to anything other than “willpower.” 

Again, thanks for your post, and for some insightful responses from our forum members.


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Well I am on to same road, depression it take me mad. Yes I put classical music try to come down myself but the problem the wine take over my life.


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## schuberkovich (Apr 7, 2013)

I haven't been diagnosed with anything but I have occasional bouts of depression, never seeming to last more than a few days, when I find myself sitting on my bed doing absolutely nothing for hours but unable to get up, acting really irritably around people, and with a general sense of numbness. In reference to Dr Kilroy's question I actually find that the worst aspect at severe times is the lack of pleasure. For example, I would try to force myself to listen to pieces that I usually find especially moving, but would feel absolutely nothing, making me feel worse. Thankfully these bouts never seem to last very long.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> ^ I don't believe all of that stuff, but you can, if you want to :lol:


From what I do know of true clinical depression, Marijuana would be antithetical to being of any help at all.


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

Levanda said:


> Well I am on to same road, depression it take me mad. Yes I put classical music try to come down myself but the problem the wine take over my life.


Levanda, please get help! Depression can be dealth with, as Kevin and others have pointed out. Don't let depression make you dependent on wine; nothing good can come out of that!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Levanda said:


> Well I am on to same road, depression it take me mad. Yes I put classical music try to come down myself but the problem the wine take over my life.


It is a very common mistake of those who are depressed to "self-medicate" the depression with other known depressants.

*Alcohol and marijuana are both depressants*, and may make the depressed person feel temporarily better, while they actually end up adding to the problem, not relieving it. This is medically known.

Seek real clinical help, and take only drugs prescribed to you, not alcohol, please.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Like the saying goes(or maybe it's not a saying), "Drinking alcohol is stealing happiness from tomorrow".


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I've found my anxiety has lessened my enjoyment of alcohol. A glass of wine or so would previously help me relax or "de-stress". Since I've had more severe symptoms it will actually make me more calm for about thirty minutes then trigger a WORSENED anxiety than previously. So I've not really had any interest these last couple of months. Probably for the best though, as my father and aunt have histories of alcoholism, so I'm actually lucky that it doesn't make me feel better.


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Whistler Fred said:


> Levanda, please get help! Depression can be dealth with, as Kevin and others have pointed out. Don't let depression make you dependent on wine; nothing good can come out of that!


Thanks for advice, I think if I would see a doctor what I would get some tablets. I am try to stay away from some kind of medication, to me is like chemicals to put into my body. I know I am upset my son, my husband even was nearly to split up with him because of my drinking. I don't have everyday but today because my of day I already had a litre bottle of red wine.


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## Guest (May 15, 2014)

As a youngster that already had scars, overdoses, and a touch of electro-convulsive therapy before I turned 21, I will probably contribute to this thread after dinner. 

I will simply say for now that music can be both helpful and downright dangerous.

Oh, and don't kill yourself. And for god's sake don't try and fail, multiple times, either.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

AS for me i stay away from negative music like hip-hop/rap heavy metal & so on,i also do not watch the news to much there is to much bad news but little good news.JAZZ also helps with feeling bad or sad also.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

I suffer from depression and anxiety. I feel numb most of the time but it's due to my medication (in part). Better to be numb than anxious though. Nothing really excites me but I do enjoy listening to music. It's definitely therapeutic.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Levanda said:


> Thanks for advice, I think if I would see a doctor what I would get some tablets. I am try to stay away from some kind of medication, to me is like chemicals to put into my body. I know I am upset my son, my husband even was nearly to split up with him because of my drinking. I don't have everyday but today because my of day I already had a litre bottle of red wine.


But you realize that you already are filling your body with chemicals, a chemical that is clearly causing a lot of trouble in your life. You know you need help, please get it. Just make that appointment, that first step. Healing is a long series of very small steps. For what it's worth, I won't say whether or not medication is an appropriate route for you, but it can be beneficial for some people. However you don't have to accept medication just by going to the doctor. You can ask for alternatives. The medical community is coming around to seeing that there's more to medical care than prescriptions. Or you can consider seeing a psychologist or therapist. They don't even prescribe medications. But please get help, you and your family deserve more.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Levanda said:


> Thanks for advice, I think if I would see a doctor what I would get some tablets. I am try to stay away from some kind of medication, to me is like chemicals to put into my body. I know I am upset my son, my husband even was nearly to split up with him because of my drinking. I don't have everyday but today because my of day I already had a litre bottle of red wine.


Alcohol is a chemical and a drug. You may first have to concede (or cede) that you will be, for a little while or perhaps quite a long while, chemical dependent.

Those medications designed to specifically target the sometimes naturally occurring chemical imbalances of the brain -- known to be one cause of depression -- are more reliable, with less detrimental affects than alcohol.

Other prescription drugs may help regulate depression which is more mood or psychology than chemistry.

The alcohol is a really bad drug, period.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Having a mother who suffers from borderline personality disorder I praise her psychiatrist for keeping her more or less stable without turning her into a zombie. 'Luckily' her only addictions are cigarettes and diet coke, nobody drinks in my family. Alcohol consumption is a horrible cultural paradigm.

I have no idea how my experience during my mother's peak of depression in my adolescence (that was a result of the death of her father and lasted a painful year and a half) affected my appreciation of music. What I know is that it made me mature.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks Kevin for relating your story. Indeed you're not alone. In my neck of the woods, studies show that 2 or 3 out of every 5 people experience or have experienced for a considerable time depression. The discrepancy depends on whose statistics you accept, but fact is that depression is becoming a big problem in the Western world.

I think that certain self care strategies are great for dealing with it, and studies have born out what you and others have said. Music is one way, taking time out is another, taking things slowly, doing exercise or physical activity, good diet, spending time with people who are supportive and who you just like being with. I know that people do self medicate with alcohol but its something that can add to the problem, especially if done in excess.

I've gone through depression and music is a huge factor in this type of daily self maintenance. I think that at times the Modern world as we call it just drives me nuts. Go home from work, you turn on the nightly news, and you get a barrage of negativity, from murders, to political ineptitude and chicancery, to one war or another. Nowadays I turn on music instead, and I've been doing that for ages. I got enough angst as it is, although there are of course good things in life. So I like to add to the plus and not the minus. Bring on the music!

A doctor was talking about this on radio recently, and he actually said that what he does to control any negative thoughts or get over stressful days at work is listen to Mozart. No joke. I was surprised by that, but he was talking about it as a type of meditation. Just spending half an hour a day listening to his favourite music was, he said, like meditation. It was both tuning in and tuning out. I really liked that, in other words what I've been doing is in a way right. I try to listen to a bit of music each day, even if its in the background whilst having a meal or something.

The thing is that all of these things are about what's good for you. WE all do it in our own way, whatever works for you and isn't adding to the problem, that's the way to deal with psychological problems. I think music is beneficial in so many ways, it has many uses that I think we can tap into to. Its such a rich resource, I agree.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I do appreciate everyone's responses to this thread. Your words of kindness are encouraging. I would like to address the pot and alcohol issues. First of all let me say that as a teenager in the 1970s I experimented quite a lot with drugs of various kinds and smoked a lot of pot and drank a lot of alcohol. Looking back I would consider myself to have been an addict no matter what people may claim. It wasn't until I had a religious Christian conversion at the age of 20 that set me free from the bondage of drugs and alcohol. I certainly would not turn to those to try and cope with the depression. I have studied alternative medicines for many years and being highly sensitive to chemicals of many kinds I have been forced to seek alternative ways of treating many conditions over the last 40 years. I have found the Alpha-Stim to be completely safe and non-habitual and it keeps me from having to be on anti-depressants or other drugs. When I went through a phase of daily anxiety resulting in panic attacks I resorted to using prescribed Ativan to give me relief enough to not hyperventilate and pass out. It was very helpful but unfortunately is also highly addictive. I had to see a psychiatrist for almost a year to help wean me off my dependence on it. Today I stay to mostly natural foods and supplements and the other things mentioned by me above.

I also want to address Dustin's comment about habitual negativity. If you knew me you would know that I am probably one of the most "positive" people you would ever meet. You would never know by looking at me that I am suffering with depression except when it is severe. My wife laughs because she is the one who's cup is always half empty and mine is always half full. I work with a lot of young people and am quite respected and liked by many of them. In fact the store employees voted me associate of the year for 2013, which is one of the highest honors our store can give to the 150 plus employees. I also was awarded a Member Service award by the store manager because she gets more positive comments about me from customers, employees and managers than any other associate. I didn't get those awards by being a habitually negative person! To some people I'm actually annoyingly positive. 

Sid James mentioned not watching the news and this is also another thing I stopped doing (in fact we got rid of cable or satellite and only buy movies or stream them from Netflix as we can't stand commercials). I used to watch the news before bed and I found that once I stopped doing that I was sleeping better. And another aspect of depression is the cycles of inability to sleep or sleeping too much. 

And someone mentioned humor and that was another thing I found therapeutic. I started a scrapbook of anything I found funny. Whether it was a picture, an ad in a magazine, a funny comic (Bizarro is my favorite), greeting cards or anything else I found funny and I will take that out to look at it once in a while for a smile or two. I also watched whole series of Seinfeld and Everybody Loves Raymond, Keeping Up Appearances and other well written comedies to help lift my spirits. 

Anyway, I do appreciate everyone's posts whether I agree with you or not. I like it when people are free to express their opinions and ideas even if we cannot accept some things said.

Kevin


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Kevin Pearson said:


> I also want to address Dustin's comment about habitual negativity. If you knew me you would know that I am probably one of the most "positive" people you would ever meet. You would never know by looking at me that I am suffering with depression except when it is severe. My wife laughs because she is the one who's cup is always half empty and mine is always half full. I work with a lot of young people and am quite respected and liked by many of them. In fact the store employees voted me associate of the year for 2013, which is one of the highest honors our store can give to the 150 plus employees. I also was awarded a Member Service award by the store manager because she gets more positive comments about me from customers, employees and managers than any other associate. I didn't get those awards by being a habitually negative person! To some people I'm actually annoyingly positive.
> Kevin


No I never said you were a negative_ person_. All I'm saying is patterns of negative _thinking_ are a huge contributor to a lot of people's depression. Maybe not for you but I was just saying in general. I think a lot of people can consider themselves very positive people in most situations but still have negative patterns of thinking in regards to certain things that contribute to depression. For example, maybe someone hates their job or feels like things never go right for them in relationships. The depression comes not from the situations but from your lens that your viewing and processing them through. Looked at in a different light, those people could realize they're exaggerating the few bad points, focusing on the negative, making false and harmful assumptions about themselves or one of many other traps people fall into.

I mean if you think about when you are depressed, that almost automatically implies you are thinking negative things. So retraining your thought process can be a HUGE help.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I would never assume that clinical depression is due to somebody's behavior or "thinking patterns." It often seems to be an issue of brain chemistry, and very hard to deal with. I have some very sad stories in that regard...

If somebody is truly depressed, they really should seek professional help. This is a very serious matter, possibly life-threatening.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I would never assume that clinical depression is due to somebody's behavior or "thinking patterns." It often seems to be an issue of brain chemistry, and very hard to deal with. I have some very sad stories in that regard...
> 
> If somebody is truly depressed, they really should seek professional help. This is a very serious matter, possibly life-threatening.


Yes like I said earlier, I feel BOTH are big contributing factors. I'm not placing the blame solely on "thinking patterns".


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Dustin said:


> No I never said you were a negative_ person_. All I'm saying is patterns of negative _thinking_ are a huge contributor to a lot of people's depression. Maybe not for you but I was just saying in general. I think a lot of people can consider themselves very positive people in most situations but still have negative patterns of thinking in regards to certain things that contribute to depression. For example, maybe someone hates their job or feels like things never go right for them in relationships. The depression comes not from the situations but from your lens that your viewing and processing them through. Looked at in a different light, those people could realize they're exaggerating the few bad points, focusing on the negative, making false and harmful assumptions about themselves or one of many other traps people fall into.
> 
> I mean if you think about when you are depressed, that almost automatically implies you are thinking negative things. So retraining your thought process can be a HUGE help.


Explained that way I do see where you are coming from Dustin. When I had the severe acute depression for four months it was from years of being in a high stress job and one I really did not enjoy. Nor did I enjoy living in the part of the country where I still reside. My wife was opposed to us moving though while I was in this state of depression. I wanted to move to Colorado Springs and still do to this day. If we had moved at that time it would have been more affordable and my wife even had a good job prospect there. Alas I'm still here in Denton and now even my wife is open to the idea of relocating to someplace prettier but we can no longer afford Colorado Springs. So, we are looking at the Fayetteville, Rogers area of Arkansas. Affordable living and even with possibly lake views and of course the Ozarks to explore. We're close to retiring and the way our property taxes are getting here I don't know how we could afford to remain here on a fixed income.

So yeah Dustin I hated my job and I hated the city I live in and yet I've made the best of it and we have done pretty well considering all things! 

Kevin


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Kevin Pearson said:


> Explained that way I do see where you are coming from Dustin. When I had the severe acute depression for four months it was from years of being in a high stress job and one I really did not enjoy. Nor did I enjoy living in the part of the country where I still reside. My wife was opposed to us moving though while I was in this state of depression. I wanted to move to Colorado Springs and still do to this day. If we had moved at that time it would have been more affordable and my wife even had a good job prospect there. Alas I'm still here in Denton and now even my wife is open to the idea of relocating to someplace prettier but we can no longer afford Colorado Springs. So, we are looking at the Fayetteville, Rogers area of Arkansas. Affordable living and even with possibly lake views and of course the Ozarks to explore. We're close to retiring and the way our property taxes are getting here I don't know how we could afford to remain here on a fixed income.
> 
> So yeah Dustin I hated my job and I hated the city I live in and yet I've made the best of it and we have done pretty well considering all things!
> 
> Kevin


Glad to hear and hope things continue to work out and get better!


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## Guest (May 16, 2014)

Dustin said:


> Yes like I said earlier, I feel BOTH are big contributing factors. I'm not placing the blame solely on "thinking patterns".


Exactly. This is why the combination of both therapy and medication is often necessary.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Kevin Pearson said:


> I once described depression to a friend of mine that it was like being in a deep, dark well and being able to see the light somewhere above but not being able to reach it. Depression is often mistaken as a feeling of "sadness" like when one feels a loss but that is not how it was for me. Sadness is not how I would describe it but more of a weight of oppression on my brain.
> Kevin


I know exactly what you are describing. I used to have dreams and fantasies about being trapped inside a motor, and I was completely helpless. I could see up through a small pipe-like opening into the light. It is like being claustrophobic, or being confined to a small space in which you can't move...horrible. It's like that ultimate fear of Edgar Allan Poe's _The Premature Burial. _Uma Thurman's escape from her coffin in_ Kill Bill _was a memorable and triumphant scene.

This song describes the lifting of the feeling:


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

In my early twenties, I remember walking along a favorite path at about 6:30 in the evening. I had recently finished college, couldn't land a job and my personal life was in shambles, as it had been for a good number of years. I remember that it was quite warm outside and I'd only been walking for about fifteen minutes or so, when I was suddenly struck by severe, crippling panic. I felt as if I'd die right then and there and had to stop because I couldn't breathe--not physically speaking but inside...it was this overwhelmingly dank and oppressive force...I felt trapped. It's difficult to explain but I had the undeniable sense that there was some kind of living entity who was either attempting to drive me insane or simply kill me. In any case, it was a very effective attack because thereafter, for at least a couple of weeks, I felt that something terrible would happen and that I'd die. A part of me did want it to end. Anyway, things got back to normal after awhile (bearable misery) and after many years of suffering in silence, I eventually got help. Munch's "The Scream" holds special meaning for me; I identify.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I used to have extreme anxiety and depression for most of my life. Then I realized that the source of the problem was my strong attachment to my "image" or ego. I thought the idea I had of myself and the world was so important, and that life should follow my rules. I realized how absurd that was... and let go. Now just being with the spontaneity of life and letting things unfold naturally. I no longer have those extreme anxiety/depression issues.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I would never assume that clinical depression is due to somebody's behavior or "thinking patterns." It often seems to be an issue of brain chemistry, and very hard to deal with. I have some very sad stories in that regard...
> 
> If somebody is truly depressed, they really should seek professional help. This is a very serious matter, possibly life-threatening.


Some people are so far out that drugs seem like the only way to lighten the load. I've had bi-polar, clinically depressed, drug-addict friends... and myself was seriously screwed up in the head. Those chemical imbalances are the physical manifestation of disharmony through the wrongful operation of the brain. The brain is a machine that functions best at a certain level. You operate it wrongly for long enough, or at extreme enough levels, then it produces things like anxiety and depression.

I used to think I was experiencing hell on earth it got so bad for me. But I always had a feeling inside that this was absurd and it didn't have to be that way. This might sound naive, but learning how to simply let go of your mental conditionings, habits, images, etc... and re-learning how to 'be' is the only permanent cure. Drugs are only band-aids, but they can be temporarily beneficial if you're also learning how to properly handle your brain.

By the way... my bi-polar friend is off the drugs and no longer considered 'bi-polar.' And my heroin-addict buddy has been clean for over a year. It can be done.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Vesuvius said:


> Some people are so far out that drugs seem like the only way to lighten the load. I've had bi-polar, clinically depressed, drug-addict friends... and myself was seriously screwed up in the head. Those chemical imbalances are the physical manifestation of disharmony through the wrongful operation of the brain. The brain is a machine that functions best at a certain level. You operate it wrongly for long enough, or at extreme enough levels, then it produces things like anxiety and depression.
> 
> I used to think I was experiencing hell on earth it got so bad for me. But I always had a feeling inside that this was absurd and it didn't have to be that way. This might sound naive, but learning how to simply let go of your mental conditionings, habits, images, etc... and re-learning how to 'be' is the only permanent cure. Drugs are only band-aids, but they can be temporarily beneficial if you're also learning how to properly handle your brain.
> 
> By the way... my bi-polar friend is off the drugs and no longer considered 'bi-polar.' And my heroin-addict buddy has been clean for over a year. It can be done.


'Letting go of your mental conditioning'... Sound advice but that's precisely the challenge; one cannot just erase decades' worth of destructive neural pathways in a couple of days.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> 'Letting go of your mental conditioning'... Sound advice but that's precisely the challenge; one cannot just erase decades' worth of destructive neural pathways in a couple of days.


Yes, correct. I never said it was instantaneous. It took a while to screw up the mental functioning of the brain, and it will take some time to get it back. But you will notice differences pretty quickly.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

The search for happiness and the ultimate experience is a major influence in our consumer society, and the pressure that puts many people under is a significant factor in the realms of mental illness. I have found we just don't need 'stuff' EG. houses expensive cars etc. - these are only a quick fix, and the arts (especially music) are ours saviours from this shallow world. Unfortunately, depression and the many forms of it is a complex subject which I'm neither subject to nor qualified to comment on but having friends with this ailment I totally empathise and understand it will never find itself a quick cure and I am grateful to Kevin for sharing his story and also his many interesting and insights into the subject of music.
For myself I have had my share of traumas including the death of a spouse and a very stressful business collapse, but throughout I can never honestly say I was depressed by any of it - the luck of chemistry - and was very surprised I didn't fall into the dark pit so many have mention on this post. So returning to our favourite subject, yes, music got me through the whole lot; if thing were bad things could also get better with the help of a Haydn symphony or Bach partita and I'm sure without this grounded background I certainly would have gone under. Drugs may work but a plaster over the crack as with alcohol and all of my long lost dear addictions which only added to the pain, and have so thankfully departed like thieves in the night. All I can say is the less you desire the more you will gain, and I wish Kevin and others in regards to this post all the very best and look forward to continuing reading your comments.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Vesuvius said:


> Yes, correct. I never said it was instantaneous. It took a while to screw up the mental functioning of the brain, and it will take some time to get it back. But you *will notice differences pretty quickly*.


I agree that retraining the brain is a key part of recovery, but who receives benefit and how quickly can vary considerably. I've been practicing cognitive behavioral therapy to correct my "cognitive distortions" as is one technical term by myself then with my psychiatrist for a total of about 9 months. Although I noticed my thinking patterns improving after 1-2 months, I can only say that I've felt TRUE symptom benefit in the last few weeks.

But in general, I like the discussion on all of the different techniques that can help achieve mental wellness. And that the varying causes (chemical, genetic, thinking patterns, chronic stress) have all been discussed. One of the challenges in regards to the cognitive distortions (or negative thinking patterns, or whatever thought processes can predispose one towards anxiety depression, eating disorders or the like) is that people don't always realize they even ARE processing things in a different way to cause those symptoms. If you are raised in a household where certain thought or behavior patterns are the NORM, you are more likely to think they ARE the norm. my anxiety was something of a perfect storm of chronic thought patterns that I'd had for YEARS and didn't cause me serious trouble clashing with significant life stress combined with the other health stuff.....it was like I had enough resources to get by for awhile that the thought patterns weren't an issue, so why change them? but then the resources ran out. Again the cognitive behavioral therapy took a long time to really take effect, but now that it is it is really gratifying. However.....I absolutely could not have made it to the functional point of DOING congnitive therapy which really takes a LOT of concentrated effort for some people, without the help of the medication.

One of the challenges is that it's hard for the mental health system to keep up with need. When mental illness has multiple causes, the right balance of lifestyle changes and therapy and meds can be difficult to find. As I said with my brief depression, what medication treated THAT did not help my anxiety. And I found no use for CBT when I was depressed and instead found ACT (Acceptance and Comittment Therapy) very life affirming and helped me through the rough patch.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Oh, and just a couple more thoughts (sorry, as both patient and clinician, mental health is a big interest of mine lately so I jabber on!)

Mental health care can be a real challenge, initially it may fall to primary care practitioners due to long waits or limited access to mental health clinicians, be they therapists or psychiatrists (or unfortuntately due to patient resistance to go in some cases). I can say that I see patients specifically for mental health concerns on a weekly basis in family practice. So in once sense I don't regret what I've gone through because I've dug much deeper as a patient into management strategies and I feel I can help my patients on a deeper level through these things as a result.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Sonata said:


> I agree that retraining the brain is a key part of recovery, but who receives benefit and how quickly can vary considerably. I've been practicing cognitive behavioral therapy to correct my "cognitive distortions" as is one technical term by myself then with my psychiatrist for a total of about 9 months. Although I noticed my thinking patterns improving after 1-2 months, I can only say that I've felt TRUE symptom benefit in the last few weeks.
> 
> But in general, I like the discussion on all of the different techniques that can help achieve mental wellness. And that the varying causes (chemical, genetic, thinking patterns, chronic stress) have all been discussed. One of the challenges in regards to the cognitive distortions (or negative thinking patterns, or whatever thought processes can predispose one towards anxiety depression, eating disorders or the like) is that people don't always realize they even ARE processing things in a different way to cause those symptoms. If you are raised in a household where certain thought or behavior patterns are the NORM, you are more likely to think they ARE the norm. my anxiety was something of a perfect storm of chronic thought patterns that I'd had for YEARS and didn't cause me serious trouble clashing with significant life stress combined with the other health stuff.....it was like I had enough resources to get by for awhile that the thought patterns weren't an issue, so why change them? but then the resources ran out. Again the cognitive behavioral therapy took a long time to really take effect, but now that it is it is really gratifying. However.....I absolutely could not have made it to the functional point of DOING congnitive therapy which really takes a LOT of concentrated effort for some people, without the help of the medication.


I feel many therapist are too quick to right pages of prescriptions because the actual work that some people require is quite a load, and requires quite a bit of wisdom of how life actually works. So, I really don't know who is to blame... maybe our "quick-fix culture" in general. It's not easy to wake some one up who has been committed to very deluded and dark ways of mental functioning.


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## Perotin (May 29, 2012)

I was diagnosed with depression about 10 years ago, but my condition improved enormously after I quitted smoking, not instantly, rather gradually. So my advice to all of you suffering from depression would be: quit smoking, it worked for me!


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## Pysmythe (May 11, 2014)

I had onset of depression with panic disorder starting in my late teens, lasting until I was precisely 23. At that age, I was able to take 2 weeks vacation from work and take a trip overseas that I had planned and saved for over an 18 month period. I took this trip by myself, and for those who are familiar with what panic disorder can do to a person regarding 'unfamiliar surroundings' and 'crowds of people,' they'll understand that it really was a major achievement for me. I DID take medication with me (my doctor insisted on it, and I also liked having the safety net), but it was a very minimal dose... I didn't want to experience what I had planned for in a fog. There was, however, a highly interesting night in Hong Kong, where I sat looking at myself in the mirror of my hotel room, thinking "OMG, what in the hell am I doing?!" But after I got back, things got better for me, and I think a big part of the reason was the knowledge, the PROOF, that I could do more than I might have thought before, that I didn't have to live feeling limited and fearful. Well, as of four years ago, two decades later, I suddenly started experiencing panic attacks again (along with some depression, which I think somehow stems from it), although not nearly of the severity or frequency of those when I was young. I've had to start taking meds again, but again the dosage is very minimal (10mg Paxil at night), only just enough to stave off the worst of it. I don't really get this, why it should be making a return to annoy me like this, although I had heard that it could flare up again after a long dormancy. I've found that what also helps me a lot is plenty of exercise, sunlight when I can get it, and regular sleep, although I am, I admit it, a little fearful of trying these alone, without the medication, at this point. I could turn this into a joke and say that another trip is in order, for a cure, and it would be great, too, because the music part of this is that I went to Bali to experience the gamelans of Ubud-Mas and Peliatan in the flesh, and they were everything I had hoped they would be, too. When you're close to one playing, you really feel it in your body, and it is hypnotizing. I'm not surprised that there is so much trance-dancing on that island. Hearing one, just like a Western orchestra, just is not the same when you aren't there in person. Regarding music, as a whole, I've wondered sometimes what music I would want to listen to on my deathbed, in my final moments, but I don't really have an answer for that yet.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Perotin said:


> I was diagnosed with depression about 10 years ago, but my condition improved enormously after I quitted smoking, not instantly, rather gradually. So my advice to all of you suffering from depression would be: quit smoking, it worked for me!


Quit smoking!? Smoking kills oral bacteria, it's healthy and gives skin that attractive, weathered look... where'd my smokes go?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> Quit smoking!? Smoking kills oral bacteria, it's healthy and gives skin that attractive, weathered look... where'd my smokes go?


So true. Smoke coming from a lit cigarette is blue. But when you exhale it, it's brown. Removing all those imparities from your system, obviously!


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## CypressWillow (Apr 2, 2013)

Kevin Pearson said:


> .... Nor did I enjoy living in the part of the country where I still reside. My wife was opposed to us moving though while I was in this state of depression. I wanted to move to Colorado Springs and still do to this day. If we had moved at that time it would have been more affordable and my wife even had a good job prospect there. Alas I'm still here in Denton and now even my wife is open to the idea of relocating to someplace prettier but we can no longer afford Colorado Springs. So, we are looking at the Fayetteville, Rogers area of Arkansas. Affordable living and even with possibly lake views and of course the Ozarks to explore. We're close to retiring and the way our property taxes are getting here I don't know how we could afford to remain here on a fixed income.
> 
> Kevin


Just wanted to add that I lived in the Dallas/Ft. worth metroplex area for many years due to my job. I didn't find it a congenial place, and I noticed a huge shift in my overall attitude and sense of well-being when I left and relocated to the Northeast. 
I can't say if leaving would increase your own happiness quotient, of course, but it certainly did so for me.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Vesuvius said:


> I feel many therapist are too quick to right pages of prescriptions because the actual work that some people require is quite a load, and requires quite a bit of wisdom of how life actually works. *So, I really don't know who is to blame... maybe our "quick-fix culture" in general*. It's not easy to wake some one up who has been committed to very deluded and dark ways of mental functioning.


Well....I guess I don't see it as a blame game. Mental health and physical health are both important and I think one doesn't always appreciate that until one or the other is not up to snuff. If I were to place "blame" on the problems with mental health care structure, it would be as part of the context of the infrastructure of healthcare and insurance systems in the US, which is unfortunately deeply flawed and not improving (wish I had the answer to that but I don't). And yes, to another degree there well may be cultural underpinnings that can dispose one towards mental illness but I'm no sociologist. But to use the word "blame" in regards to a patient or practitioner.....well, why? (well except in the case of a genuinely bad practitioner) Do we speak of blame when we talk about physical illness. It's not about blaming it's about uncovering or unraveling what's causing symptoms and what will work. As for therapists, they don't write prescriptions. That would be in the hands of the psychiatrists or general medical practitioners. "Blame and guilt" are two big words that are especially triggering for me, especially difficult. Blaming myself for anxiety I at the time was VERY UNABLE to control in spite of my best efforts. I didn't have all the answers. So I don't like the word blame. Do/did I have faulty thinking? yes, but it didn't make me at fault per se. As my psychiatrist put it, "stop focusing on the idea that you are doing things WRONG, just focus on the idea that doing things differently will make you feel BETTER"

re: the quick fix. I both agree and disagree. I wish I would have tried therapy first and then I may have never needed medication (other than to manage the hormone fluctuations). And when I recommend therapy to some of my patients it can be unfortunate if they don't want to try it. But sometimes insurance won't cover it or there may be other circumstances involved.

On the other hand: when someone is borderline suicidal, at the risk of losing their job, their home, their spouse....they might NEED an intervention that is quick. And it is almost never a "quick fix" it is a "quick stabilization" to get things under control. Antidepressants can take 4-12 weeks to work. Nothing quick about that. I never quite understand how the medication debate always comes up with mental health discussions and NOT so much with other illness discussions. The issues are just as real there, with other treatments. Yet you don't hear that come up in these conversations.

At the end of the day, any medical practitioner (psychiatrist, therapist, general practitioner) who thinks only pills are the answer for any illness physical or mental, is perhaps not a very good practitioner. To care for a whole person, you have to look at the whole picture. Period.


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## Levanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Well Thanks for Sonata's advice I have made appointing to see doctor, not sure if I will able to take medication. I used remember my best friend used take some anti depression she was like stone girl, no emotions. I would not like to see myself like that. 
Stop smoking for me is too big step to do this.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

That's great! Let us know how things go


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## Guest (May 16, 2014)

Levanda said:


> I used remember my best friend used take some anti depression she was like stone girl, no emotions.


This is not a standard reaction to psychiatric medication. Do not let it deter you from addressing the both the chemical and psychological elements of your condition. It would be equivalent to those stories you hear of people who refuse to get in a car, because of the possibility of a car accident.

I am by no means the man I wanted to be at this point in my life (I would hesitate to call myself a man, indeed), and I would certainly place a little more stock in consistent therapy, but in the end, both psychological and psychiatric help have been crucial in getting me this far.

Brain/body chemistry and coping skills/trauma are two different things. Many people have one or the other. Many people, myself included, have both. If you had a bad heart and a malignant tumor, would you only address one in hopes that "maybe it'll be enough"?

I do not mean to sound harsh, but I have come VERY close to death multiple times in the last 3 years and have lost valuable things along the way. It would be a pity for me not to offer up these experiences. Sure, I lost my chance of graduating with a petroleum engineering degree from a prestigious university, but that is only one thing. I'm making a comeback in that regard, but I'll probably never hear the voice of my best college friend again ("Go ahead and kill yourself").

In other words, better to address these things to the best of your ability now, rather than in a time of emergency.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Perotin said:


> I was diagnosed with depression about 10 years ago, but my condition improved enormously after I quitted smoking, not instantly, rather gradually. So my advice to all of you suffering from depression would be: quit smoking, it worked for me!


That's awesome!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kevin Pearson said:


> ...
> Sid James mentioned not watching the news and this is also another thing I stopped doing (in fact we got rid of cable or satellite and only buy movies or stream them from Netflix as we can't stand commercials). I used to watch the news before bed and I found that once I stopped doing that I was sleeping better. And another aspect of depression is the cycles of inability to sleep or sleeping too much. ...


That's good, of course that's another thing I could have mentioned, a good night's sleep is another thing that's important. Of course all of these are linked. With the sedentary lifestyle in the West now, you don't get much chance of exercise unless you go out and do it specifically. So too our diets, a lot of it is processed foods, and no wonder diabeties is at epidemic proportions now (and as the emerging economies like China get more prosperous, its appearing there more as well). So what I'm saying is that its all linked, and the way an average professional or office worker lives, well its just a recipe for disaster.

In terms of screens (but more computers than television) one study I read about made the conclusion that those who went to sleep straight after being on the computer (specifically online, and checking emails) had poorer sleep than those that didn't. In some ways this isn't relevant to me, I tend not to be on the computer a lot in the evenings). I have come across people with that online thing called FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out), constantly checking social media, and also those who check emails and can't leave the office stuff back at the office. Its another thing that is not conduicive to sleep and to overall well being.

Kevin, it sounds like you and others here are pretty much up on dealing with depression. I agree that its different for everybody, because there are different types and different intensities of depression, and different methods of treatment and management. I can only sadly reflect on what sonata said about the health care system in her neck of the woods. Its a bit better here, but not much. Mental health is the lowest priority, has been for all governments since I can remember. It is subject to their whims, and also to all the funding struggles between Federal and State governments.

The big positive I can think of is that the stigma is decreasing somewhat, its much more discussed in the media than it used to be. Speaking to our members' experiences with depression here, the stereotype of someone who has depression is no longer that its their fault. There was an ad campaign here years back with a prominent actor saying that its just like a physical illness (I think a broken arm was the analogy used), and therefore blaming the person with such a condition is counterproductive. The "get over it" factor, especially if done to invalidate what another person says, is so damaging.

Former politicians and sportsperople have 'come out' in recent years about suffering from serious and debilitating depression, all the while we thought that they where so-called normal people, high achieving, had everything in life and so on. I think this is good, because what we're getting is a deeper understanding of psychological disorders now. One of these prominent people said that they where at the top of their game but feeling pressured to go on when they had felt they had given all, and that was that. In the end this person retired by default, but he said the decision would have came earlier if not for the pressure from others. It's interesting to see this out in the open now, they are people just like us, and part of this process is them lobbying government to finally do something about depression and other related disorders, not just pay the usual lip service.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Pysmythe said:


> I had onset of depression with panic disorder starting in my late teens, lasting until I was precisely 23. At that age, I was able to take 2 weeks vacation from work and take a trip overseas that I had planned and saved for over an 18 month period. I took this trip by myself, and for those who are familiar with what panic disorder can do to a person regarding 'unfamiliar surroundings' and 'crowds of people,' they'll understand that it really was a major achievement for me. I DID take medication with me (my doctor insisted on it, and I also liked having the safety net), but it was a very minimal dose... I didn't want to experience what I had planned for in a fog. There was, however, a highly interesting night in Hong Kong, where I sat looking at myself in the mirror of my hotel room, thinking "OMG, what in the hell am I doing?!" But after I got back, things got better for me, and I think a big part of the reason was the knowledge, the PROOF, that I could do more than I might have thought before, that I didn't have to live feeling limited and fearful. Well, as of four years ago, two decades later, I suddenly started experiencing panic attacks again (along with some depression, which I think somehow stems from it), although not nearly of the severity or frequency of those when I was young. I've had to start taking meds again, but again the dosage is very minimal (10mg Paxil at night), only just enough to stave off the worst of it. I don't really get this, why it should be making a return to annoy me like this, although I had heard that it could flare up again after a long dormancy. I've found that what also helps me a lot is plenty of exercise, sunlight when I can get it, and regular sleep, although I am, I admit it, a little fearful of trying these alone, without the medication, at this point. I could turn this into a joke and say that another trip is in order, for a cure, and it would be great, too, because the music part of this is that I went to Bali to experience the gamelans of Ubud-Mas and Peliatan in the flesh, and they were everything I had hoped they would be, too. When you're close to one playing, you really feel it in your body, and it is hypnotizing. I'm not surprised that there is so much trance-dancing on that island. Hearing one, just like a Western orchestra, just is not the same when you aren't there in person. Regarding music, as a whole, I've wondered sometimes what music I would want to listen to on my deathbed, in my final moments, but I don't really have an answer for that yet.


That's really incredible that you pushed forward with this trip in spite of your struggles. what a life-affirming story


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

This outlook that has been highly "liked" around here is quite funny. I'm genuinely coming form a place of serious mental disease and darkness, both myself and my friends around me. Although my outlook may seem a bit blunt and "unsophisticated"... I know it works. This whole idea of whining and feeling sorrow for ourselves is a pathetic condition of our screwed up society. It's fashionable to have a problem, or to fear a problem, so we manifest them right in front of our eyes. We are the only ones to blame, and nobody else made you feel this way. I was there, it absolutely sucks, but wake the hell up. You're not the pathetic being that you've been programed to think. 

Get out of your mind. It's a recycling bin. It gathers and recycles information for later usage, but no one should live in their recycling bin.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I guess I don't understand entirely where you're coming from vesuvius. Mental illness doesn't = whining. The symptom list of depression doesn't include "complaining to your friend that you're unhappy" . To say that it's "fashionable to have a problem" well that's great.....if you fabricated yours because you needed to have a problem, that isn't the case for everyone else. Don't assume your experience is equivalent to everyone elses. I woke up for months with panic attacks...yes started the very beginning of my day with a panic attack about four days per week. You know who knew this? My doctors. My husband. And that's IT, because I WASN'T complaining about it. My heart would be pounding in my chest but I'd go right on treating patients as per usual.My experience was more or less the opposite of what you say. I spent months minimizing my symptoms because other people "have it harder and I shouldn't complain. This is my problem I shouldn't bother the doctor about it" It was only when I accepted that I had a psychological problem and that it was ok to ask for help that things improved. And what about someone with post traumatic stress disorder? Are they to blame for their condition too?

You know....I actually agree with a lot of your ideas. "Get out of your mind" yes.....this is very important. But some people can't just snap out of it. It takes time, and it often takes guidance. Yes you are responsible for your own physical health, for your own mental health. If someone is having mental health problems it is their responsibility to seek help. Whether that help is through a doctor, a counselor, a clergyman, or self-help sources.

And you know what? I'm glad that my recovery has been a slow extended period of time, in a sense. I've learned a heck of a lot more about myself, about the world, and about care for my patients then if I had been able to magically decide I made up a problem and just stopped it. It worked for you. GREAT. It is not the same for everyone. I don't see whining here, I see a great discussion about many methods of coping and recovery and I think that's a wonderful thing


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

Kevin, I didn't knew that you had such a severe depression. I am very happy that you was able to recover.

About myself, after my divorce last year I had something like a mild depression, and Kevin helped me a lot with advices by private messaging. I will always be very grateful for that! Luckily, I think that my body is quick to "absorb" these problems, and I recovered quickly, after one or two months. I am quite good nowadays, and also it motivated me to exercise a lot. I can't let a day pass now without doing some exercises, I am a little addicted in it but I don't think that are worse addictions to have :lol:

In this depressive period I obsessed for some time on Beethoven music, specially the string quartet No.14. Seriously, I listened to it around 10 times in some days. For some reason, this music was the only think that made sense in my mind, there is some logic there that made me go through my most painful days. After that, when I was getting better, I listened a lot to Sibelius (and I still do). Sibelius is a kind of meditation to me, I feel the nature ingrained on it and it makes part of my anxiety go away.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Vesuvius said:


> Sonata,
> 
> Okay, then stay where you are. Trying to "feel better" is part of your problem. It will never work. The mind will make "feeling better" an endless journey with moments of tiny 'relaxations' on the background of endless misery. It's a game, and your mind will always win.


See....you can't even see outside your own perception to understand what I've posted about my own journey. That's been my point. I'm not "staying where I am" After trial and error and time with an excellent clinician helping me, well things are changing. It's nothing at all about tiny "relaxations" but about retraining aforementioned thought patterns as YOU YOURSELF mentioned. I am getting better, I am finding renewal in my life. Never once have I said I am in misery. You say it's about getting out of your mind, but you can't get out of your own mind long enough to understand that other's journeys have merit as well as your own.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

I want to thank you all for your vulnerability and courage in sharing your struggles and successes.

Combating the trickster Depression is a daunting and difficult task.

There is obviously no single solution. But, thankfully, there are many effective strategies that can make a significant difference. So many great ideas have been highlighted in these pages.

One thing that I would like to add when building an alliance against Depression: community.

One of the many reasons why threads and forums like these are so valuable. Feeling heard, relating to others, not feeling alone - there is power in community.

For US posters:

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=find_support


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Vesuvius said:


> I used to have extreme anxiety and depression for most of my life. Then I realized that the source of the problem was *my strong attachment to my "image" or ego. I thought the idea I had of myself and the world was so important, and that life should follow my rules.* I realized how absurd that was... and let go. Now just being with the spontaneity of life and letting things unfold naturally. I no longer have those extreme anxiety/depression issues.


Honestly.....how is this any different than you are acting now? You think you know the key of curing mental illness, that your way is the only way and if we aren't following your rules of healing then we're doing it wrong.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I hope a little humor is not totally out of place here. Thomas Eagleton, senator from Missouri, was George McGovern's running mate in 1972. It came out that he had undergone electroshock therapy earlier when hospitalized, evidently for depression.

Immediately bumper stickers appeared: "Volt for Eagleton".


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

Sonata said:


> Honestly.....how is this any different than you are acting now? You think you know the key of curing mental illness, that your way is the only way and if we aren't following your rules of healing then we're doing it wrong.


I'll type this again since my post got deleted.

You're right, and I apologize to you. I get a little too heated in this type of talk because I've wasted an extraordinary amount of time with "mind-games" about depression and anxiety. I see you're being sincere, and I wish you the best.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Vesuvius said:


> I'll type this again since my post got deleted.
> 
> You're right, and I apologize to you. I get a little too heated in this type of talk because I've wasted an extraordinary amount of time with "mind-games" about depression and anxiety. I see you're being sincere, and I wish you the best.


Thank you very much.  well it's been a very stimulating conversation, but I'm going to try to get a bit of sleep before the next kid wake up!


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I went through a bout of depression that lasted about a year, and I think discovering Classical music greatly accelerated my recovery. Until then I was frustrated at not enjoying other music like I used to, and couldn't find any enjoyment in anything else, but classical music was a breath of fresh air. 

My life feels greatly enriched by that discovery.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Great topic and classical music, jazz, pop, and rap have kept me uppity and about town. Not depressed and in fact, I get to spend time with my daughter every week .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kevin Pearson said:


> I mentioned in another post that for most of my life I have suffered from depression. At times it is more severe than others but it's kind of always there under the surface. About eight years ago the depression got to the point where the doctor had considered hospitalizing me. It was so weird to be pretty much non-functional. I would look at a form to fill out and I could read it but could not wrap my mind around what I needed to do or how to answer the questions. My wife would leave for work and come back in the door and I would ask her why she was back and the whole day had gone by and for me it seemed like she had just left. I was unable to work for over four months. Thankfully, by God's mercy, I was able to find some help. I found out that my depression is actually a chemical imbalance and is exacerbated by stressful situations and the longer the stress invades the worse the depression becomes. I tried many different anti-depressants and all of them had severe side effects for me. The best medical therapy came from the help of a Chiropractor I used to work for as he was experimenting with FSM (Frequency Specific Micro-current). At first I was skeptical it would help but after about 5 treatments I was significantly better. This set me to researching FSM and discovered a device called Alpha-Stim that's about the size of a Tens unit and bought myself one. I treated myself every day for two hours for a month, then every other day and eventually to once a week and now only as needed. It really helps tremendously and was well worth the investment and has helped keep me from having a relapse.
> 
> Now I said all that just to give some background and also to maybe help others who suffer from depression and are trying to find ways to get relief. It can be very trying and many great men and women have suffered from it including many composers.
> 
> ...


I've had a form of low grade depression most of my life and I believe it is this keen sensitivity to feelings that makes me empathetic with much of classical music.

If one doesn't feel it, one doesn't listen to it.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

For example, today was a wet and snowy day. And I was in a funk running errands. Now listening to Morton Feldman and it is seriously helping me out in fact getting out of this depressive state.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Interesting that this thread would get revived at this time because I have been struggling with the depression again. I lent my Alpha Stim device to my next door neighbor who was in a rehab center a few weeks back and her depression was pretty severe. Thankfully she has been getting relief from using the Alpha-Stim and her countenance has really changed. If this bout continues to get worse I may have to ask for it back though. In the interim I'm coping the best I can. If I could just get some decent nights rest it would help but I just can't seem to sleep or when I do it's shallow and I keep waking up or can't get back to sleep. Then I go to work exhausted and the cycle begins again the next day. I find myself not wanting to interact with our customers or even my co-workers. Probably a good thing I have no choice or I might become pretty reclusive, which is my tendency.

Kevin


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

When I get depressed, I tend to sleep a lot. Naps and just avoiding all light which is bad for me. And this happens a lot during winter. Also my ADHD is pretty much controlled by medication which I am grateful for so I don't feel scattershot.

Listening to long stretches of Feldman has been rather helpful in fact. I've been improving my concentration and stamina.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> When I get depressed, I tend to sleep a lot. Naps and just avoiding all light which is bad for me. And this happens a lot during winter. Also my ADHD is pretty much controlled by medication which I am grateful for so I don't feel scattershot.
> 
> Listening to long stretches of Feldman has been rather helpful in fact. I've been improving my concentration and stamina.


Actually, you want at least twenty minutes of direct sunlight on your body each day so that the ultraviolet radiation can interact with your skin and liver to synthesize vitamin D.

If you don't have enough vitamin D you get listless, lethargic, and depressed.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Actually, you want at least twenty minutes of direct sunlight on your body each day so that the ultraviolet radiation can interact with your skin and liver to synthesize vitamin D.
> 
> If you don't have enough vitamin D you get listless, lethargic, and depressed.


Thanks for the tip ... Vitamin D milk isn't the same either.

I make it a goal to stay outside at least 1-2 hours per day. Not in the house at all. And listening to classical music with my iPod of course.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

On the whole this has been a very uplifting thread. I really want to thank everyone who shared their perspectives and experiences!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

science said:


> On the whole this has been a very uplifting thread. I really want to thank everyone who shared their perspectives and experiences!


Any time man! Any time...


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

albertfallickwang said:


> Thanks for the tip ... Vitamin D milk isn't the same either.
> 
> I make it a goal to stay outside at least 1-2 hours per day. Not in the house at all. And listening to classical music with my iPod of course.


Glad to help. _;D_

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

I take vitamin D supplement twice every day. It does help but it's not a cure all for depression by any means.

Kevin


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Kevin Pearson said:


> I take vitamin D supplement twice every day. It does help but it's not a cure all for depression by any means.
> 
> Kevin


I never assumed as much.

Serotonin and norepinephrine imbalances will affect people more adversely than vitamin D deficiencies.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I never assumed as much.
> 
> Serotonin and norepinephrine imbalances will affect people more adversely than vitamin D deficiencies.




For me, getting regular exercise everyday really has been helpful too. But I don't know the impact physiologically in any case.


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2015)

Brief summaries of the pros and cons of various options for depression:

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Depression/Pages/treatmentoptions.aspx


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

dogen said:


> Brief summaries of the pros and cons of various options for depression:
> 
> http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Depression/Pages/treatmentoptions.aspx


I can't help but notice that Frequency Specific Micro-Current (FSM) is not on that list and that is what I have found to be the most effective at giving me relief from the symptoms of depression. I can also now say that my neighbor has had excellent results with it as well.

Kevin


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2015)

@Kevin
I noticed that. I can't say I've heard of it, maybe not well known in UK?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Music works well for me. At combating loneliness, anxiety, depression, social rejection, the usual suspects. A diversion of sorts.

The zenith of joy is music for me. Where nothing can stop me. Where there are no variables [Awful conductors aside].

_Just me and the music. _


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Had a tough morning today and looking forward to some music to alleviate dealing with personal stuff. It's been quite a tough lot.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

A few years ago, I had the most severe form of depression with constant thought patterns about death. I had no access to therapy or medication, and my parents thought that I was selfish. It was absolute hell. Music therapy slowly but surely helped me get out of the hole.

I have just discovered Dr. Claire Weeks and her audio programs. Her insight has been extremely helpful to me, and she explains the concepts better than I can.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Everyday has been an ongoing battle but the daily practice of music listening has been totally helpful in that regards. Also getting enough sleep has been crucial.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

I recommend this documentary very highly:

*Alive Inside* (2014) 
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2593392/
Trailer: www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaB5Egej0TQ

"Dan Cohen, founder of the nonprofit organization Music & Memory, fights against a broken healthcare system to demonstrate music's ability to combat memory loss and restore a deep sense of self to those suffering from it."


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Posie said:


> A few years ago, I had the most severe form of depression with constant thought patterns about death. I had no access to therapy or medication, and my parents thought that I was selfish. It was absolute hell. Music therapy slowly but surely helped me get out of the hole.
> 
> I have just discovered Dr. Claire Weeks and her audio programs. Her insight has been extremely helpful to me, and she explains the concepts better than I can.


My parents thought I was worthless, selfish and lazy when I was a kid. They never bothered to have me diagnosed because that would be an embarrassing reflection on them.

All the tests I've taken plus MD's opinions came to the same conclusion: chronic low grade depression with anxiety thrown in just to make it more interesting! :lol:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

hpowders said:


> My parents thought I was worthless, selfish and lazy when I was a kid. They never bothered to have me diagnosed because that would be an embarrassing reflection on them.
> 
> All the tests I've taken plus MD's opinions came to the same conclusion: chronic low grade depression with anxiety thrown in just to make it more interesting! :lol:


Wow, and my childhood was pretty rough too. It's tough dealing with life.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

albertfallickwang said:


> For me, getting regular exercise everyday really has been helpful too. But I don't know the impact physiologically in any case.


Oh goodness yes!! I exercise 3-4 days per week and it has been very therapeutic, swimming in particular. There have been several studies suggesting that it's as effective or more than antidepressants for mild and moderate (but not severe) depression. My psychiatrist is very well rounded, always checking in that I keep up my exercise regularly.

My depressions have been brief and few but intense.....the anxiety is another animal however. I think I'm going to be dealing with that to some degree or other for the rest of my life. So I have to make sure to keep up my coping strategies. But I, in such a better place mentally now than I was this time a year ago.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Oh goodness yes!! I exercise 3-4 days per week and it has been very therapeutic, swimming in particular. There have been several studies suggesting that it's as effective or more than antidepressants for mild and moderate (but not severe) depression. My psychiatrist is very well rounded, always checking in that I keep up my exercise regularly.
> 
> My depressions have been brief and few but intense.....the anxiety is another animal however. I think I'm going to be dealing with that to some degree or other for the rest of my life. So I have to make sure to keep up my coping strategies. But I, in such a better place mentally now than I was this time a year ago.


Indeed I try to visit the public library downtown every other day so that means that I can get out of the house easily. Winters it's a lot harder however.


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Sonata said:


> My depressions have been brief and few but intense.....the anxiety is another animal however. I think I'm going to be dealing with that to some degree or other for the rest of my life. So I have to make sure to keep up my coping strategies. But I, in such a better place mentally now than I was this time a year ago.


Not necessarily. I used to have anxiety and daily panic attacks but the FSM resolved that also. My neighbor also told me she has not had another panic attack since using my Alpha-Stim device. Maybe you really should look into getting yourself one?

Kevin


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Kevin Pearson said:


> Not necessarily. I used to have anxiety and daily panic attacks but the FSM resolved that also. My neighbor also told me she has not had another panic attack since using my Alpha-Stim device. Maybe you really should look into getting yourself one?
> 
> Kevin


Definitely worth looking into. I'll talk to my psychiatrist about that next time I see her. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm almost glad I have the anxiety. I have never missed paying any of my many bills on time for over 30 years thanks to that "nervousness" I always carry around with me. I got the anxiety from my mom as a kid.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Like some of you, I had a miserable childhood as well — father was an alcoholic who bullied me and mother couldn't protect me. 17 years of living in fear took their toll on my psyche. Safe to say I don't miss my childhood and wouldn't wish that kind of psychological and emotional torture on anyone. Life has certainly been 'interesting' for some of us.


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

I have suffered from depression for most of my life. I find that listening to classical music can be a mixed blessing. On the one hand, there are works that help me realize that I'm not alone, since some composers have a remarkable talent for expressing feelings of misery and futility in their music. On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if it doesn't just help support depressing thoughts. You know, misery loves company and all that. Most of the time, I can deal with it, and various therapies help, but life just ain't what it's supposed to be. And maybe that's (only) one of the problems--our expectations can soar far above our experiences.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I really do feel depression helps one be moved by classical music.

My SO is completely extroverted-craves people, parties, loud mainstream music; the complete opposite of chronically low-grade depressed me and is as insensitive to classical music as I am acutely sensitive to it.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

The kind of "depression" I usually have just makes me more emotionally numb. Doesn't really help appreciating classical. Though I'm not sure should I call it "depression". Lethargy? Apathy? Boredom?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I get that too, but a rousing performance of something like Bartok's Second Piano Concerto can snap me out of it.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Same as Dim7, except I would say 'low mood' in my case rather than depression, as low mood is a factual description whereas depression sounds like a doctor's diagnosis, which I've never sought. Anxiety is another matter, and music has always helped more than anything. In my case the misery (during adolescence) and numbness (during the last pregnancy and subsequent few years) were due to external circumstances which seemed overwhelming and hopeless, rather than 'brain chemistry' as such, although it's obviously impossible to know for sure. I could and did enjoy music when I was miserable, but not when I was numb.

Personally I'm fine even under moderately stressful circumstances, as long as there's some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. Then music is ideal for taking me out of myself and distracting me from whatever is less than ideal in my life.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Relevant:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I get depressed when I see my credit card statement at the end of the month: all of those Amazon entries


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

DrKilroy said:


> Doesn't it mean that, while suffering from depression, one is unable to listen to music with pleasure?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


As someone with depression (though it waxes and wanes), it depends on the severity of the depression. If it is really bad, it makes it essentially impossible to focus on anything and even listening to music is difficult. If the depression is less severe than music can be "enjoyed" and in many ways is comforting.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

20centrfuge said:


> As someone with depression (though it waxes and wanes), it depends on the severity of the depression. If it is really bad, it makes it essentially impossible to focus on anything and even listening to music is difficult. If the depression is less severe than music can be "enjoyed" and in many ways is comforting.


I agree... winter is here and it's been an ongoing battle just trying to get through Morton Feldman month. But so far I'm doing well.


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