# What are some piano works that use counterpoint?



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

What are some piano works that use counterpoint?


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

there are lots.
First, define counterpoint. I personally think counterpoint begins when there are at least two different phrases at the same time, period. So there is counterpoint in Haydn's and Mozart's piano works.
To some people, music is contrapuntal only when there are some kind of imitation (canon or fugue)...

Anyway, famous examples (I assume that by piano you meant "from 1750 to today", so I won't include Sweelinck's fantasia or Bach's WTC):

Beethoven, Hammerklavier, the fugue section in the last movement
Liszt, Sonata in B-minor
Franck, the Fugue from the Prelude, Choral and Fugue

There are also Reicha's 36 fugues, who are quite a curiosity. I remember one with repeated notes as a subject, which sounded _very_ avant-garde.

edit :





The second one (n18)


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

Take any of Godowsky, that crazy Lithuanian. Any work. He wrote counter voices all the time. You'll need a very powerful left hand to play his works.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

What are some piano works that don't use counterpoint?


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Try the beginning (and main) melody of this sonata. Left hand and right hand bounce off of each other.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Klavierspieler said:


> What are some piano works that don't use counterpoint?


Here's one.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)




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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Here's one.


Actually, that does use simple counterpoint. There are four separate voices moving at different times.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

It woul be difficult to compose a piece devoid of counterpoint with several voices anyway.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It woul be difficult to compose a piece devoid of counterpoint with several voices anyway.


Early Organum ftw.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> Early Organum ftw.


That's still a melody against a melody.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That's still a melody against a melody.


Not really, they're doing exactly the same thing, just separated by an interval.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> Not really, they're doing exactly the same thing, just separated by an interval.


That's still a melody against a melody.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Klavierspieler said:


> Actually, that does use simple counterpoint. There are four separate voices moving at different times.


No, that is not counterpoint.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> No, that is not counterpoint.


There is a little bit of counterpoint in that Chopin prelude that you posted.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> There is a little bit of counterpoint in that Chopin prelude that you posted.


Where?
It is quite plainly homophonic not contrapuntal.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Where?
> It is quite plainly homophonic not contrapuntal.


If it was homophonic then all of the voices would be played as single block chords with the same note value. Not just the bottom three. Have a look at the accompanying voices in relation to the top melody The alto voice (top notes of the left hand) could arguably be said to have a pulsating countermelody against the top notes in the soprano voice (right hand). There you have counterpoint.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That's still a melody against a melody.


It depends on how you define "against."


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> If it was homophonic then all of the voices would be played as single block chords with the same note value. Not just the bottom three. Have a look at the accompanying voices in relation to the top melody The alto voice (top notes of the left hand) could arguably be said to have a pulsating countermelody against the top notes in the soprano voice (right hand). There you have counterpoint.


That is stretching the definition to the point of absurdity.
It serves no useful purpose to describe the piano writing of this prelude as in any way contrapuntal. I know Chopin would agree, as would any sensible analyst.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)




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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> That is stretching the definition to the point of absurdity.
> It serves no useful purpose to describe the piano writing of this prelude as in any way contrapuntal. *I know Chopin would agree*, as would any sensible analyst.


Did you ask him?


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Klavierspieler said:


> Did you ask him?


Don't have to. Just applying common sense.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Anything Germanic - counterpoint is their particular province from earliest times. All polyphonic music has counterpoint in the same way that a church hymn in SATB arrangement is an exercise in counterpoint - simple, but CP, all the same. It is just that the counterpoint is given such a high place in German music. Some of it grows out of the German composers temperament i.e. to create a serious music. North German Organ music (Buxtehude and Bach grew out of this atmosphere) is another reason - the Baroque organ is divided into two manuals (keyboards), plus tons of stops for different sounds, and then also the pedalboard (foot pedals) for the bass. An instrument of this design almost dictates a linear tradition as the instrument stratifies everything so easily. Just my opine. 



LordBlackudder said:


> What are some piano works that use counterpoint?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Most of Schumann, Chopin, Brahms, Debussy (often enough) -- there are tons of varieties of how to use counterpoint. Many novices think it is only the premise of 18th century 'Bach-style' - but it covers the gamut.

That rather famous Chopin Prelude No. 4 in E minor is riddled with counterpoint, all the accompaniment of the melody being not just 'chords' but a consequence of separate chromatic lines running in parallel motion. (counterpoint does not require 'opposed motion,' another often mistaken notion.)

Look at the Talk Classical thread 'every fugue ever written' - shows you that there is all kinds of counterpoint in composers music from all eras 

Stravinsky's Concerto for two pianos has a prelude and fugue as its final, 4th, movement.
Ditto Samuel Barber's Sonata for piano.

There is lots of different sorts of counterpoint in various pieces throughout the Six books of Bartok's Microkosmos.

Later 20th century composers have deployed countrapuntal writing in various ways.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Petwhac said:


> Here's one.


There are two functioning chords in this entire brief piece: I - V - I
All else is counterpoint - horizontal consequent chromatic lines - contrapuntal, anything BUT 'homophonic.'

The piece is almost nothing BUT 'Counterpoint.'


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

PetrB said:


> There are two functioning chords in this entire brief piece: I - V - I
> All else is counterpoint - horizontal consequent chromatic lines - contrapuntal, anything BUT 'homophonic.'
> 
> The piece is almost nothing BUT 'Counterpoint.'


I hope Petwhac agrees now.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I hope Petwhac agrees now.


Agreement or no, don't change no facts


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

"In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony), but independent in rhythm and contour.In music, counterpoint is the relationship between voices that are harmonically interdependent (polyphony), but independent in rhythm and contour."

So yes, counterpoint in it's broadest definition, is just voices moving against each other. Anyone who goes through an early counterpoint class knows this because all the exercises are basically just chorale-like pieces.


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## chee_zee (Aug 16, 2010)

heterophony exists. parallel homophony of any interval also exists, not just octave and P5 doublings.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I hope Petwhac agrees now.


I certainly do not agree.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Agreement or no, don't change no facts


You have not presented any facts, only a rather flawed sub Schenkerian style 'analysis'.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> I certainly do not agree.


Haha, you're very stubborn. :lol:

After all the explanations we have given you, you still can't recognise counterpoint when you hear it!


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Haha, you're very stubborn. :lol:
> 
> After all the explanations we have given you, you still can't recognise counterpoint when you hear it!


I am not being stubborn for the sake of it. I rather think it is you and PetraB who are being stubborn by insisting that this prelude be viewed as containing significant instances of counterpoint. *
Your case relies on using so broad a definition of the term as to render it meaningless.*
What is the function of these labels we use if *not to clarify and to classify?*
You might argue that a single note is actually a chord and in some sense you would be correct. We know that every tone has it's fundamental and it's overtones which contain in varying amounts the notes of the harmonic series. However, to define a note as a chord only muddies our understanding of *the nature of music or more correctly, composition *of a *non atonal *approach.
To characterise this beautiful and remarkable prelude as containing "nothing BUT counterpoint" *says nothing about the nature of the prelude or of counterpoint.
I would view the piece as a simple melody and accompaniment texture ( which is an accepted definition of the term homophony) where the left hand provides block harmonies that make much use of suspensions and inversions. The chords could have been sounded only once per harmony but since the right hand's melodic line is rather rhythmically static and of limited contour until the climax, Chopin used a repeated *8th note pattern to provide movement- rather like a strumming guitar would.
I believe that if the composer had intended to make counterpoint a feature of this prelude he would have introduced more voices of *independent rhythm and contour.
As it is, the main feature of this prelude is it's gorgeous harmonic progressions. It is not a good example of counterpoint.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

^It may not be the first thing that would come to mind when one thinks of contrapuntal pieces of music, but it is contrapuntal nevertheless.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> ^It may not be the first thing that would come to mind when one thinks of contrapuntal pieces of music, but it is contrapuntal nevertheless.


Ok you win. Now what kind of cheese did you say the moon was made out of!:lol:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Ok you win. Now what kind of cheese did you say the moon was made out of!:lol:


Stilton I think. I'll have to double check that.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Stilton I think. I'll have to double check that.


Nah... Wensleydale.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> Nah... Wensleydale.


Really? From where I come from it looks more like stilton than wensleydale...but that's more often in winter though, and it's winter here right now.


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Really? From where I come from it looks more like stilton than wensleydale...but that's more often in winter though, and it's winter here right now.


Where I come from, we generally can't see it at all...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Klavierspieler said:


> Where I come from, we generally can't see it at all...


Where do you come from?


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Where do you come from?


Nibelheim?


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Where do you come from?


Washington (state). In the US.

We're known for having days on of end of overcast weather, even if we don't get any rain.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

My money is on Petwhac here... for the eloquent prose and convincing argument.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

KRoad said:


> My money is on Petwhac here... for the eloquent prose and convincing argument.


My money is on everyone else. The people who actually know some stuff about counterpoint and can recognise it in various forms such as in Chopin's prelude op. 28,4


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> My money is on everyone else. The people who actually know some stuff about counterpoint and can recognise it in various forms such as in Chopin's prelude op. 28,4


If you really can recognise it you should also recognise it's absence. Clearly you have difficulty with the latter.
You may know 'some stuff about' counterpoint. But I know counterpoint.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

Mendelssohn is often considered a master of counterpoint. I think his fugues are wonderful.


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## Romantic Geek (Dec 25, 2009)

Oh...also Copland's Passacaglia is really cool! Wonderful example of 20th-century counterpoint. Still elements of tonality, but definitely a lot freer.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Schoenberg is an excellent contrapuntalist. I would rank him close to Bach when it comes to the most skilled contrapuntalists. I'm surprised he hasn't been mentioned yet.


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

Wow this Copland Passacaglia sounds like Rzeswki ! (or it's Rzewski who sounds like Copland)


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