# Schumann Op. 131 (Fantasie for Violin and Piano)



## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Is anyone familiar with this piece? I just stumbled on it - I love Schumann, but this was my first time hearing this one. I hear a lot of similarities with the violin concerto and other late works. Curious if others have any impressions of this one.

I'm also curious whether others have found any lesser-known gems in his later oeuvre - I love the Gesänge der Frühe, the violin and cello concertos, the Ghost Variations, etc. - but outside these (relatively) well-known works, most of his later music is still unknown to me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

There is a lot of fine late music, Mächenerzählungen is a particular favourite of mine. The violin music is a major part of Schumann’s achievement I think. Op 131 is available in two versions, one with piano and one with orchestra, I don’t know who created the piano version.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Late Schumann is not very easy but can be just as rewarding as prime-Schumann if you invest time and energy. I`ll second Märchenerzählungen but they`re all good in various degrees really.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Highwayman said:


> Late Schumann is not very easy but can be just as rewarding as prime-Schumann if you invest time and energy. I`ll second Märchenerzählungen but they`re all good in various degrees really.


In some late works I hear where he loses some of his earlier experience in writing. Maybe nobody close to him wanted to tell him.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

'Late Schumann' is a great topic for a thread! (though not quite as good as late Schubert). Thanks.

1. Do you know Schumann's Violin Sonatas nos. 1 & 2? They are very fine works. My first LP recording of this music was by the violinist Adolf Busch and pianist Rudolf Serkin, who were championing this music long before the musical world had come to realize that Schumann's late works weren't composed by a man who'd lost his faculties, as had been previously thought. (I seem to recall that Clara Schumann had something to do with this neglect, as she had tried to suppress some of her husband's late scores, out of fear that they would damage his reputation ...?)










Among more recent recordings, I've liked violinist Ulf Wallin's performances, with pianist Roland Pöntinen, etc.. Wallin has recorded the complete Schumann works for violin (including a version of the Cello Concerto played on a violin), & I think he has a special affinity for this music. But many violinists have now recorded these sonatas, so I'm sure there are other excellent recordings, too. For example, I know Carolin Widmann's ECM recordings have received strong reviews (& a Brit award), as have those by Isabelle Faust and Thomas Zehetmair (& I recall particularly liking Faust's recording, which is one of her earliest); as well as Christian Tetzlaff & Lars Vogt, Gidon Kremer & Martha Argerich, and Oleg Kagan & Elisso Wirsaladze (in the Violin Sonata No. 1):









Cello Concerto in A Minor, Op. 129: I. Nicht zu schnell (Version for violin and orchestra)













Denes Varjon - Schumann : The Violin Sonatas - Carolin Widmann - Amazon.com Music


Denes Varjon - Schumann : The Violin Sonatas - Carolin Widmann - Amazon.com Music



www.amazon.com




Violin Sonata No. 1 in A Minor, Op. 105: I. Mit Leidenschaftlichem Ausdruck
Schumann: Violin Sonata No. 1, Op. 105 - Gidon Kremer & Martha Argerich

In addition to those late Schumann pieces that have already been mentioned on this thread, I'd also recommend the following works (& I've tried to put them in order of composition, according to the year),

2. Three Romances for Oboe and Piano, Op. 94 (1849)--the Holliger/Brendel recording is very good,

Schumann: 3 Romances, Op.94 - No.1 Nicht schnell
Schumann: 3 Romances, Op.94 - No.2 Einfach, innig
Schumann: 3 Romances, Op.94 - No.3 Nicht schnell

3. Bunte Blatter, for piano, Op. 99--The recordings by Sviatoslav Richter, Clara Haskil, Tatiana Nikolayeva, Dmitri Bashkirov, Jean Martin, Youri Egorov, & Michel Block are the best that I've heard in this music; though Maria Joao Pires, Reine Gianoli, Louie Lortie, & Mikhail Pletnev are very good, too. But I should add that they didn't all record the entire work. Note that the pieces begin in 1835 and end in 1849, so they're not all late Schumann,

Schumann - Bunte Blätter - Richter studio
Schumann - Tatiana Nikolayeva (1983) Bunte Blätter op. 99, 8 extraits
Dmitri Bashkirov: Schumann Bunte Blatter Op 99
Clara Haskil plays Schumann Bunte Blätter Op. 99 No.1-8
MICHEL BLOCH plays SCHUMANN Bunte Blatter Op.99 (1977)
Schumann - Jean Martin (1972, Piano Bösendorfer) Bunte Blätter op 99
Youri Egorov plays Schumann's Bunte Blätter Op.99 in concert

Tobias Koch is also well worth hearing on a period piano: Bunte Blatter, Op. 99: 3 Stucklein: No. 1. Nicht schnell, mit Innigkeit

4. Five Stücke im Volkston for piano and cello, Op. 102 (1849)--the Maisky/Argerich recording is excellent on Philips (though I don't know their later DG recording, which may be live?). Rostropovich also made a 'classic' recording of this work with Benjamin Britten on piano,

Schumann: 5 Stücke im Volkston, Op. 102 - 2. Langsam
Schumann: 5 Stücke im Volkston, Op. 102 - 1. Vanitas vanitatum (Mit Humor) - YouTube Music

5. Three Fantsiestucke for piano, Op. 111 (1851)--Claudio Arrau's recording is excellent, also Reine Gianoli, & Antonin Kubalek,

Claudio Arrau Schumann 3 Fantasiestücke Op. 111
3 Fantasiestucke, Op. 111: No. 1 in C Minor: Molto vivace ed appassionatamente
Schumann: 3 Phantasiestucke, Op. 111 - 3. Kräftig und sehr markiert

_6. Der Rose Pilgerfahrt_ oratorio, Op. 112 (1851)--this work can be done for piano & chorus, or with an orchestra and chorus. However, I can't remember if the orchestration is by Schumann or not, it may not be...?). Here's a good recording of the piano/chorus version,









Der Rose Pilgerfahrt, Op. 112, Part I: No. 1, "Die Frühlingslüfte bringen"


Provided to YouTube by PIASDer Rose Pilgerfahrt, Op. 112, Part I: No. 1, "Die Frühlingslüfte bringen" · Philip Mayers · Ulrike Bartsch · Marcus Creed · Dagma...




www.youtube.com





7. Marchenbilder for viola and piano, Op. 113 (1851): The violists Yuri Bashmet (with pianist Sviatoslav Richter), Pauline Sachse, and Tabea Zimmermann are all excellent in this music, & especially the lesser known Sachse, who is easily the best recorded of the three (by Ars Produktion, which is an audiophile's dream for sound engineering),









Marchenbilder (Fairy Tales) , Op. 113 (version for viola and piano) : I. Nicht schnell


Provided to YouTube by NAXOS of AmericaMarchenbilder (Fairy Tales) , Op. 113 (version for viola and piano) : I. Nicht schnell · Pauline SascheViolin Tales℗ 2...




www.youtube.com












Schumann - Märchenbilder op. 113 - Yuri Bashmet & Sviatoslav Richter


Robert Schumann - Märchenbilder op. 11300:00 I. Nicht Schnell03:19 II. Lebhaft07:09 III. Rasch09:49 IV. Langsam, mit melancholischem AusdruckYuri Bashmet - v...




www.youtube.com












Marchenbilder, Op. 113: I. Nicht Schnell


Provided to YouTube by Symphonic DistributionMarchenbilder, Op. 113: I. Nicht Schnell · Hartmut Höll · Tabea ZimmermannSchumann: Sonate Op. 105; Marchenbilde...




www.youtube.com





8. Sonaten für die Jugend, or Sonata for the Young, Op. 118: I'm not sure who to recommend here,

--Cedric Pescia: Sonaten für die Jugend Op. 118, Sonata No. 1 in G Major: I. Allegro. Lebhaft

9. Albumblatter for piano, Op. 124--the works in this album begin in 1832 and end in 1845, so again it's not entirely late Schumann. However, it has been treated like it's late Schumann! because it doesn't get recorded very often. Cyprien Katsaris (on Teldec), Friederike Richter, & Tobias Koch (on a period piano) have made excellent recordings of this music,

Here is Katsaris's live recording of the Albumblatter, since I can't find his Teldec recording on You Tube (& I'm not sure which is preferable between the two): Albumblätter, Op. 124: No. 1, Impromptu








Schumann - Friederike Richter (1992) Albumblätter, Op.124


Artworks : François Mockel0:00 : Impromptu1:00 : Leides Ahnung3:10 : Scherzino4:11 : Walzer5:04 : Fantasietanz5:55 : Wiegenliedchen8:16 : Ländler9:19 : Lied ...




www.youtube.com












Albumblatter, Op. 124: No. 1. Impromptu


Provided to YouTube by NAXOS of AmericaAlbumblatter, Op. 124: No. 1. Impromptu · Tobias KochSchumann: Bunte Blätter, Op. 99 & Albumblätter, Op. 124℗ 2013 Gen...




www.youtube.com





10. Seven Piano Pieces in Fughetta Form, Op. 126 (1853) for piano (or organ)--IMO, this is definitely underrated Schumann. The seven pieces show Schumann's love of the music of J.S. Bach, which had strongly influenced him. It's hardly the work of a deranged mind. I have the old Jorg Demus recording, which is good, but there are probably better... such as more recently from Eric le Sage?, or Florian Uhlig, or Cedric Pescia, or Tobias Koch? At one point, I can recall that the only recordings in the catalogue were by Demus and Reine Gianoli, who were the first two pianists to record the complete solo piano works. Demus' technique isn't always what it needs to be in Schumann, such as in the difficult Toccata, which he wasn't capable of playing, but he's okay in these Op. 126 pieces. Besides, he was a good musician, despite his technical limitations. However, fortunately there's been a more recent recording by the late Dina Ugorskaya, which I've liked a lot,









Sieben Stücke in Fughetten Form, Op. 126: No.1. Nicht schnell. leise vorzutragen


Provided to YouTube by PIASSieben Stücke in Fughetten Form, Op. 126: No.1. Nicht schnell. leise vorzutragen · Dina UgorskajaSchumann: Gesänge der Frühe & 7 F...




www.youtube.com












Robert Schumann - 7 Klavierstücke in Fughettenform op. 126 [With score]


Composer: Robert Schumann (8 June 1810 – 29 July 1856)Performer: Jörg Demus7 Klavierstücke in Fughettenform {7 Pieces in Fugue Form for Piano), written in 18...




www.youtube.com





11. There's also a late Schumann choral work, I can't remember which one it is, but I believe it was the Requiem (1852), Op. 148?, where during its composition, Schumann believed he had heard a melody sung to him by beings (or angels) from another world, and he used this melody in the choral work. Which is the kind of stuff that fascinates me. Was it real or an aural hallucination? I remember reading about it in psychiatrist Peter Ostwald's excellent biography on Schumann (which if you don't know, I'd strongly recommend: Schumann: The Inner Voices of a Musical Genius: Ostwald, Peter, Ostwald, Lise Deschamps, Masur, Kurt: 9781555537241: Amazon.com: Books ). But I can't recall the details, since I last read this book when it came out in the 1980s. Can anyone fill in the information here, as there doesn't seem to be a Wikipedia page on Schumann's Requiem?









Robert Schumann - Requiem(1852)(with full score)


I. Requiem 00:05II. Te decet 04:09III. Dies irae 09:04IV. Liber scriptus 12:31V. Qui Mariam absolvisti 17:51VI. Domine Jesu Christe! 22:48VII. Hostias et pre...




www.youtube.com





There's also a very good recording of the Requiem by Wolfgang Sawallisch, but it's not on You Tube.

Lastly, here are some further recordings that I'd recommend of the late Schumann piano works you've already mentioned--IMO, these are special performances that I'd imagine every Schumann lover will want know about, if they don't already,

--Edith Picht-Axenfeld--I find it fascinating that a harpischordist who specialized in the music of J.S. Bach could play late Schumann (& late Brahms) so exceptionally well on the piano: Schumann - Gesänge der Frühe, Op. 133 - Edith Picht-Axenfeld

--Tatiana Nikolayeva: Schumann - Tatiana Nikolayeva (1983) Die Geistervariationen WoO 24 (1854)

--Michel Block: MICHEL BLOCK plays SCHUMANN Gesänge der Frühe Op.133 (1977)

--Antonin Kubalek: Schumann - Gesänge der Frühe, Op. 133 - Antonin Kubalek

--Dina Ugorskaya: Gesänge der Frühe, Op. 133: I. In ruhigem Tempo

By the way, Andras Schiff's ECM recordings of Schumann's late piano works are very good, too.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Mossyembankment,

When I edited my post above, apparently the website mistakingly switched out the You Tube link in your opening post--to the Op. 131 Fantasie--for my first You Tube link to Busch & Serkin (& as a result, I had to put the Serkin/Busch back into my post). At least, that's what it looks like on my TC page. So, if that's what you're seeing, too, you'll want to edit your post. Sorry, but I don't how that happened.

EDIT: Nevermind, the computer has now corrected itself, and your original Op. 131 YT link is back in place. Too bad, for a second there I thought I'd gained the power to rearrange other people's posts...


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I have this recording, wonderful playing of this good music , I will spin it later.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Josquin13 said:


> 'Late Schumann' is a great topic for a thread! (though not quite as good as late Schubert). Thanks.
> 
> 1. Do you know Schumann's Violin Sonatas nos. 1 & 2? They are very fine works. My first LP recording of this music was by the violinist Adolf Busch and pianist Rudolf Serkin, who were championing this music long before the musical world had come to realize that Schumann's late works weren't composed by a man who'd lost his faculties, as had been previously thought. (I seem to recall that Clara Schumann had something to do with this neglect, as she had tried to suppress some of her husband's late scores, out of fear that they would damage his reputation ...?)
> 
> ...


I don’t think Bunte Blätte and Albumblätte are late works, they come from the same time as Kinderszenen, just published later. 

This is the sort of thing which makes me doubt whether there really was a late style.

Have you heard the third piano trio? I think it is exceptionally good music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> I have this recording, wonderful playing of this good music , I will spin it later.


This is the orchestral version. I wonder if someone can tell us who wrote the version of op 131 with violon and piano.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Luchesi said:


> In some late works I hear where he loses some of his earlier experience in writing. Maybe nobody close to him wanted to tell him.


I don’t agree, I think that Schumann’s small scale work is uneven throughout his life, not just at the end. I should say that I’ve never explored any the choral music or operas or the music with orchestra except in the most cursory way, and I’ve never taken much interest in the piano music for kids.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I like the violin sonatas and the 3rd trio but I think that there is an aspect of overcompensation in the recent estimation of "late" Schumann. A lot of this was deemed substandard ("mad and bad") and this was of course not generally true or in any case highly exaggerated and now some people seem to be "pushing" this music as particularly good which seems exaggerated in the opposite direction. 

Admittedly, I hardly know op.131 (I have a recording with orchestra (and I thought that this was the original) as a filler) but I always found the century-long obscurity of the violin _concerto_ not undeserved...


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Josquin13 said:


> 'Late Schumann' is a great topic for a thread! (though not quite as good as late Schubert). Thanks.
> 
> ...
> 
> By the way, Andras Schiff's ECM recordings of Schumann's late piano works are very good, too.


Thank you for so many recs! I have heard and enjoy Bunte Blätter, but many of these are new to me. 



Mandryka said:


> I don’t agree, I think that Schumann’s small scale work is uneven throughout his life, not just at the end. I should say that I’ve never explored any the choral music or operas or the music with orchestra except in the most cursory way, and I’ve never taken much interest in the piano music for kids.


Schumann is my favorite composer, but I generally agree with this. Maybe his unevenness and idiosyncrasies are part of his charm, for me - his successes are good enough, and his failures or misses are not so bad as to affect my overall opinion, because they still contain a lot of character. But some are certainly less interesting or inspired than others. I will say that I do think Album für die Jugend has some very charming and also some very beautiful pieces.



Kreisler jr said:


> I like the violin sonatas and the 3rd trio but I think that there is an aspect of overcompensation in the recent estimation of "late" Schumann. A lot of this was deemed substandard ("mad and bad") and this was of course not generally true or in any case highly exaggerated and now some people seem to be "pushing" this music as particularly good which seems exaggerated in the opposite direction.
> 
> Admittedly, I hardly know op.131 (I have a recording with orchestra (and I thought that this was the original) as a filler) but I always found the century-long obscurity of the violin _concerto_ not undeserved...


This is probably true, things do seem to work this way. From what I've listened to, the late music really is different... but the high points of his later period (lately, Gesänge der Frühe holds this position for me) can stand together with my favorite works from the 1830s. I do like the violin concerto, especially the first movement, though I can easily see its flaws.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> I don’t think Bunte Blätte and Albumblätte are late works, they come from the same time as Kinderszenen, just published later.
> 
> This is the sort of thing which makes me doubt whether there really was a late style.
> 
> Have you heard the third piano trio? I think it is exceptionally good music.


Hi Mandryka,

I hope you're well.

Yes, I've never precisely pinned down what period or periods in Schumann's life the various pieces in the _Bunte Blätter & Albumblätter derive_ from (as I'd rather be listening to the music). So I was more or less relying on Wikipedia when I gave the dates of composition for the two albums in my previous post. Your reply has prompted me to look into the matter more closely, & apparently only the final March in the Bunte Blatter is a late work, having been composed in 1849. The other works are earlier I gather, but we still don't seem to have precise dates attached to most of them, only that he collected the pieces together in 1850 from his earlier works (starting in the 1830s).

While for the _Albumblätter_, Wikipedia writes that "the earliest material dates from 1832 and comprises pieces, considered for, but not included in Carnval, Op. 9. Other material used included pieces intended for a composition that was never published entitled _XII Burle_ (English _12 Burleskes_), short pieces written to mark specific family occasions and, dating from 1845, a canon sketched for his _Studies for Pedal piano_, Op. 56, but ultimately not used in that project." So, you're mostly right, the two albums were not for the most part compiled from works that he composed in the late 1840s.

Yet I also find it hard to imagine that Schumann didn't fiddle with or rework some of these pieces before their publication in 1853; especially considering that the works in both albums had previously been held back from publication, and that his original title for the two albums, "Spreu" or in English "Chaff" indicates that he wasn't altogether satisfied with these pieces. So I'd be surprised if he didn't fiddle with or rewrite some of the works between 1850 & 1853 in order to make them more ready for publication.

Yes, I do know the G minor Piano Trio, Op. 110, & tend to agree with you. There are certainly parts of it that are exceptional. I forgot to mention it in my previous post.

If anyone's interested, there are a handful of recordings that I've liked of Schumann's late Piano Trio No. 3. One comes in the Tetzlaff Trio's survey of Schumann's complete Piano Trios 1-3, and another is on period instruments, performed by the Benvenue Trio (Huggett, Tompkins, & Zivian), who've likewise recorded the complete trios. I've also liked the Beaux Arts Trio's two recordings on Philips. However, the recording that I probably find myself most reaching for is the one by the Abegg Trio on Tacet, who have become one of my favorite groups in recent years. (Btw, their Beethoven trios are exceptional, too.)














I'd be curious to hear about which performance or performances you've most liked?, since I find it difficult to keep up with the many different piano trios today.

As for there being a "late style", Schumann's manner of composing completely changed from about the mid-1840s on, by his own admission. His new method seems to have partly grown out of his passionate study of Bach fugues in 1845 (which he undertook with his wife, Clara). Before that time, Schumann had composed by improvising at the piano, but in the later years, due to his intensive contrapuntal studies, he began to work things out in his head first, before sitting down at the piano. So, composing became a more purely imaginative & interior process, where he invented and formed his ideas in his mind. & I think that change does get reflected in his later music (for better or worse).

But I also think that his "late" style grew out of his prior keen interest in the purer emotional expression of Bach chorales. I feel the later works are more distilled in this sense. They can almost sound like church music at times. Granted, that wasn't exactly a new motivation for Schumann; however, it is a motivation that I think developed in his later years, and perhaps became more devotional.

On the other hand, while his earlier improvised works are episodic and mercurial, I can find the later music to be slightly more discursive. At times the music seems to be laid out in an almost stream of consciousness manner. There is a more disjointed (or jittery) feel about it, like he's jumping from one idea to the next, in places.

How coherent these late works sound seems to depend on the performance itself. Some musicians can make this music sound less discursive & more cohesively structured than others. I think Busch & Serkin do that in the Violin Sonatas nos. 1 & 2, for instance. In other words, I don't think these works tend to come off very well when played by your average musician. But neither do Schumann's earlier works, either. All of his music is extremely difficult to play well, even the simpler pieces, musically speaking.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I find Tetzlaff too heavy in op 110. Try a really mad performance: Ilya Gringolts + 2

It’s good that the music sounds like a stream of consciousness, and bad that it sounds like some sort of arbitrary structure has been imposed on it from the outside. In music, the form is the content: the sequence of experiences you have when listening is the form.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

For what it's worth, I also started a thread about Bunte Blätter last year that got some interesting responses.









Bunte Blätter (Schumann)


This collection is usually described as a repository for odds and ends that Schumann chose to omit from earlier works (and I think this is largely accurate), and while I have always liked specific pieces, I never thought of it as one of his major works. I think I was wrong - maybe one could say...




www.talkclassical.com





Edit: Henle Verlag also produced a good scholarly analysis of how the collection came about (scroll down for English):



https://www.henle.de/media/foreword/0081.pdf


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

The Trio Jean Paul put the Schumann trios on disc together with trios by Rihm (one of which, I think, refers to Schumann); it's been too long I listened to them but they might be alert to the quirky, "modern" features of the works.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Op 131 is available in two versions, one with piano and one with orchestra, I don’t know who created the piano version.


Friedrich Hermann (1828-1907), I think, according to IMSLP


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