# Most accessible pieces by difficult composers



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

This thread is for you to recommend those pieces that cracked the nut towards one composer that either you or the public consider/ed difficult.

A number of examples from my experience:

Brahms - String Sextet No. 1
(serial) Schoenberg - Piano Concerto
Berg - Violin Concerto
Hindemith - Bassoon sonata
Stockhausen - Tierkreis
Carter - A Mirror in Which to Dwell
Babbitt - Composition for Four Instruments
Boulez - Derivé 1
Takemitsu - Rain Spell
Feldman - Rothko Chapel
Chin - Violin Concerto No.1


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Cage - Sonatas for Prepared Piano/In a Landscape 


I think even the anti-Cage people agree with this one, about it being probably the best starting point.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

fbjim said:


> I think even the anti-Cage people agree with this one, about it being probably the best starting point.


No. 4'33"


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Not necessarily from my own experience:

Babbitt - Swan Song no. 1
Brahms - Symphony no. 2
Ferneyhough - Funérailles
Gubaidulina - Chaconne
Hindemith - Kammermusik (general)
Krenek - Lamentatio Jeremiæ Prophetæ
Penderecki - Violin Concerto no. 2 "Metamorphosen"
Reger - 4 Tone Poems after Arnold Böcklin
Schoenberg - Suite for piano, op. 25
Sessions - String Quartet no. 1
Xenakis - Eonta

I agree with the OP on Berg, Chin, Stockhausen and maybe on Boulez as well. I don`t agree with the choice for Carter but cannot think of a good alternative yet. Also, I don`t consider Takemitsu as a tough nut. I think he is quite accessible albeit very complex.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I never thought of Hindemith as difficult. But I would argue that his most accessible piece is the Symphonic Metamorphosis. 

Messiaen's O Sacrum Convivium is one of my favorite choral pieces of all time, but I recognize that it's not much like his other works.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

This is all a matter of opinion.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Tristan said:


> I never thought of Hindemith as difficult. But I would argue that his most accessible piece is the Symphonic Metamorphosis.


Agreed to both. The problem with some difficult composers, e.g. 2nd viennese school, is that there are accessible pieces, e.g. Verklärte Nacht, Im Sommerwind, Berg's piano sonata... but they don't help all that much with their difficult pieces.


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## advokat (Aug 16, 2020)

Brahms - Piano concerto 1
Bruckner - Symphony no. 1
Mahler - Symphony no. 1
Taneyev - John of Damascus
Schmidt - Symphony no. 2


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Tristan said:


> I never thought of Hindemith as difficult. But I would argue that his most accessible piece is the Symphonic Metamorphosis.her works.


I never found Hindemith's music difficult either. But I've talked to many people who do.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Not only difficulty varies with people but what the obstacle is in itself: A number of people who don't like orchestral Debussy find it like a series of amorphous colour blobs senselessly put toghether, or in the words of Saint-Saens "a painter's pallette without melody". 
Personally I used to find Petrushka and The Rite of Spring to be pretty melodies sorrounded big walls of noise.
Perhaps this kind of confusion arises from high levels of simultaneous activity plus complex melodic design.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Not only difficulty varies with people but what the obstacle is in itself: A number of people who don't like orchestral Debussy find it like a series of amorphous colour blobs senselessly put toghether, or in the words of Saint-Saens "a painter's pallette without melody".


This was pretty much my impression as a teenager who heard Debussy's music for the first time. And 30 years later I still prefer his chamber and piano music... 
It was even similar with Wagner: A wall of sound with a screaming singer... partly maybe the fault of mediocre reproduction on cheap stereo setup and LPs or cassettes that gave a more mushy impression than necessary.
But such hurdles cannot be conquered by choosing different pieces but only by closer and more attentive listening and getting used to the sounds etc. And it probably also helps to hear it in concert with a good orchestra.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I see several mentions of Brahms. Brahms is difficult? Really? A lot of the other composers I agree but Brahms? Really? Brahms?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

golfer72 said:


> I see several mentions of Brahms. Brahms is difficult? Really? A lot of the other composers I agree but Brahms? Really? Brahms?


Yes, after listening to Brahms I had to undergo a difficult and painful procedure to have my ears removed to make sure I would never have to hear it again.


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## Wigmar (8 mo ago)

Mahler. I have not come to terms with his symphonies, except the adagietto.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Interesting use of the term ‘accessible’ in this thread. Would like to know who would be the target audience that would find some of these works accessible: Those who have never found the less accessible categories of classical music accessible before? Those who are familiar with and ordinarily enjoy typically less accessible music?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> Yes, after listening to Brahms I had to undergo a difficult and painful procedure to have my ears removed to make sure I would never have to hear it again.


So where are your ears in this photo?








removed? or hidden under the Wagner hat?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Wigmar said:


> Mahler. I have not come to terms with his symphonies, except the adagietto.



Try his fourth symphony , it's beautiful!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

golfer72 said:


> I see several mentions of Brahms. Brahms is difficult? Really? A lot of the other composers I agree but Brahms? Really? Brahms?


Try this _Brahmsian mystery_




Op.52, 65


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

hammeredklavier said:


> So where are your ears in this photo?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a post-op photo. Ears are no more.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Carter's First Symphony is traditionally based...


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Couchie said:


> That's a post-op photo. Ears are no more.


Understandable cosmetic surgery, these ears must have been very long, grey and floppy...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Couchie said:


> That's a post-op photo. Ears are no more.


_"c*OUCH*ie!"_


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

The issue used to be tonal versus a-tonal music, which was held to be 'modern'. I have no problem with tonal music, I either like it/ rate it or I don't. A-tonal music and composers still seem to be a problem to me. I am an amateur in every sense. Is this division still the real issue in Classical Music?


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

GMB said:


> The issue used to be tonal versus a-tonal music, which was held to be 'modern'. I have no problem with tonal music, I either like it/ rate it or I don't. A-tonal music and composers still seem to be a problem to me. I am an amateur in every sense. Is this division still the real issue in Classical Music?


Younger generations I've interacted with don't seem to have a problem with it. They listen to all the tonal-atonal spectrum.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This thread is for you to recommend those pieces that cracked the nut towards one composer that either you or the public consider/ed difficult.
> 
> A number of examples from my experience:
> 
> ...


I am a fan of the Berg violin concerto for sure.


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## JimZipCode (Feb 16, 2021)

Are there any suggestions for Stravinsky? I've wanted to get into him, but nothing has grabbed me.
The score for the Star Trek episode “Amok Time” by composer Gerald Fried is supposed to be heavily indebted to _Rite of Spring_, but I haven't found it easy to get into _Rite_.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

JimZipCode said:


> Are there any suggestions for Stravinsky? I've wanted to get into him, but nothing has grabbed me.
> The score for the Star Trek episode “Amok Time” by composer Gerald Fried is supposed to be heavily indebted to _Rite of Spring_, but I haven't found it easy to get into _Rite_.


Might be easier to begin with the shorter works of his neoclassical period: Dumbarton Oaks, Ebony concerto, Orpheus to name a few. They are a lot less dense or constantly harmonically complex but still got his rhythmical tricks.

I had a lot of trouble getting into that period for stilystic/aesthetic reasons though and I still listen to his later and earlier music a lot more..


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Webern *Im Sommerwind*






For Stravinsky try the *Suite Italienne*


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Wigmar said:


> Mahler. I have not come to terms with his symphonies, except the adagietto.


Try the 6th. And not with a crowd-pleasing record. Choose the hard ones. Solti, Boulez, Tennstedt (live). Music to convert a heavy-metal-fan.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

golfer72 said:


> I see several mentions of Brahms. Brahms is difficult? Really? A lot of the other composers I agree but Brahms? Really? Brahms?


I noticed that with surprise as well. The chamber music surely speaks for itself. It is almost the archetypical chamber music. The orchestral music can be more difficult and in my experience you need to stop trying to hear what you think should be there and let it talk to you. A lot of people - and I was one many decades ago - come to Brahms expecting big Romantic music with Beethovenian tendencies but he is really quite classical in his discipline. His orchestral music has a gorgeous warmth. There can be excitement there too but it is not (for me) a defining characteristic, a necessity. He is totally unique - as you would expect from one of the very greats - and always leaves me feeling "where did _that _come from?" in the way I do with only a very small group of composers.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This thread is for you to recommend those pieces that cracked the nut towards one composer that either you or the public consider/ed difficult.
> 
> A number of examples from my experience:
> 
> ...


Some good choices there for sure. But I do wonder if it is specific works that help us to break into new composers. It may be for me that a work - often a fairly typical one for the composer - suddenly helps me see the light but perhaps simply because it was the one I was listening to when I finally found the mood for that composer. That mood comes to me from trying and then leaving the composer and then trying again. Often I feel the music - music that I had previously been cold to - calling to me and I know that I may be ready. I think that was certainly the case for me with Boulez and Carter. Or maybe it is a particular performance that does it - Uchida's recording of Schoenberg's piano concerto certainly opened my ears to the atonal Schoenberg. Or isn't it sometimes one composer who opens up the world of another composer for us? That happened for me with Messiaen. It was my growing affection for the music of George Benjamin - who had been a student of Messiaen's as a child - that allowed me to listen to Messiaen with proper comprehension. I would now count Messiaen as a real favourite.

But I do relate to the idea that the Berg violin concerto - such a toweringly great work - is an excellent gateway to much more of Berg's music.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

^^Speaking of Benjamin do you know these @Enthusiast?
Written for young pianists, I think these sort of qualify for this thread's OP.....


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## Xenophiliu (Jan 2, 2022)

JimZipCode said:


> Are there any suggestions for Stravinsky? I've wanted to get into him, but nothing has grabbed me.
> The score for the Star Trek episode “Amok Time” by composer Gerald Fried is supposed to be heavily indebted to _Rite of Spring_, but I haven't found it easy to get into _Rite_.


His ballets, The Fairy's Kiss (Le baiser de la fée) and Pulcinella, are easier in the sense that Stravinsky writes in the styles of Tchaikovksy and Pergolesi, respectively. Not perhaps indicative of his personal style, but maybe an easy entry point. My personal favorite of his ballets is Petrushka, which was also an 'easier' one for me amongst his other ballet scores.


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## GMB (10 mo ago)

I think Stravinsky, in common with some other composers, is overrated, which is why some listeners find it difficult to get into his music. It's simply that you don't rate him as highly as other people. I have all Igor's major works. I find him and them enjoyably different, but not ' better ' than several other 20th Century composers, or composers from earlier times. The biggest failing in his works is a half-way decent slow movement or adagio in any one of them. There's plenty of rhythms in them , for which he is rightly popular, but no worthwhile adagio. Now the slow movement is the heart and soul of a classical work and its absence in his works is a major failing. Remember that he claimed that music didn't mean anything- at least to him- which has unfortunately influenced many critics and others. I can imagine Beethoven, Mahler and many other greats tearing their hair out at this claim by Stravinsky. So whist I enjoy what IS composed I find failings and limitations in his output and have to turn to other composers to compensate. I know I will be attacked by IS's fans but I stand my ground. Like so many composers he is overrated and the CM world should get off its knees to him. He is one of many fine 20th Century composers, that is all!!!!!!!


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Younger generations I've interacted with don't seem to have a problem with it. They listen to all the tonal-atonal spectrum.


This has been my general experience as well.


I sort of prefer recommending things like the Cage Prepared Piano works and Feldman's _Rothko Chapel _more than say, Ives 1 because they're more representative of the composer's works and act as good starting points, rather than relatively "classical" works that otherwise adventurous composers did.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Red Terror said:


> This is all a matter of opinion.


Thank you Mr. Obvious. Exchanges of opinions are a normal part of human communication. What's your point?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Xenophiliu said:


> His ballets, The Fairy's Kiss (Le baiser de la fée) and Pulcinella, are easier in the sense that Stravinsky writes in the styles of Tchaikovksy and Pergolesi, respectively. Not perhaps indicative of his personal style, but maybe an easy entry point. My personal favorite of his ballets is Petrushka, which was also an 'easier' one for me amongst his other ballet scores.


Stravinsky wrote in such a broad spectrum of styles that it is easily possible that one likes some of them but it helps little to get into stylistically rather different works. Someone who loves The Firebird will not necessarily like Agon or the Symphony in Three Movements or the late stuff like "Movements" (that dodekaphonic quasi-concerto).


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## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Carter - String Quartet No. 1, Piano Sonata
Wuorinen - Piano Concerto No. 3
Scriabin - Piano Sonata No. 3 (yes, at one time I considered him difficult) (And as a teenager, I was mightily attracted to the cover art on the Lp)










Schuman - Symphony No. 7, but especially his Violin Concerto
Stockhausen - Luzifers Traum
Boulez - Répons
Penderecki - Symphonies 2 and 4
Kirchner - Piano Sonata No. 1
Prokofiev - Piano Concerto No. 2 (went to a concert where this was played. Couldn't make any sense of it. But my friend loved it, and I started listening to recordings, wondering what I was missing)
Brahms - Piano Concerto No. 2 (even Brahms!)
Wagner - Tannhäuser
Britten - Piano Concerto (I had only heard his operas before)
Schönberg - Piano Suite, Op. 25 (by Glenn Gould)
Piston - Symphony No. 6 (Munch's recording - very high energy in the finale!)
Ives - Circus Band
Bax - Symphony No. 3
Berio - Concerto for 2 pianos
Tippett - Piano Sonata No. 1
Peter Maxwell-Davies? Still working on it. 


And believe it or not, I once considered Chopin difficult. That was back when I was in high school, and the only classical music I'd ever heard was Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. So I put on a record (long before CDs) of his Fantasy in F minor while I was reading for some background music. I thought since it didn't have any interesting melodies, it wouldn't distract me. About half way through, I was hooked. I had never seriously listened to Chopin before.


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Although this would not help appreciate his other works, it was intentionally made accessible ("banal") by a "difficult" composer.

Lachenmann: Marche fatale" für großes Orchester





_Marche fatale is an incautiously daring escapade that may annoy the fans of my compositions more than my earlier works, many of which have prevailed only after scandals at their world premieres. My Marche fatale has, though, little stylistically to do with my previous compositional path; it presents itself without restraint, if not as a regression, then still as a recourse to those empty phrases to which modern civilization still clings in its daily “utility” music, whereas music in the 20th and 21st centuries has long since advanced to new, unfamiliar soundscapes and expressive possibilities. The key term is “banality.” As creators we despise it, we try to avoid it – though we are not safe from the cheap banal even within new aesthetic achievements._ (Helmut Lachenmann, 2017)


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