# Why is Ireland so wholly incapable of producing even one fair to middling composer?



## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Apart from John Field - who supposedly invented the Nocturne - Ireland has produced no composer of any real repute in the past 2000 years. 

How embarrassing this must be for such a musical people that their most famous composers are laughably bad, sub-human jet trash, such as Gerald Barry, Bill Whelan and Saorise Barry.

I suppose Sean O’Riada did write a nice serial/tone piece just before he died…

However, is Hamilton Harty really the best of a bad bunch?

Discuss…


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Well Ireland certainly influenced several excellent British Composers ( Moeran and Bax) to name two


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

John Dowland claimed to be Irish. If so, he would be their greatest composer by some fair distance…


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

If you're willing to consider folk music, Ireland has produced *hundreds *of world-famous composers.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Ireland hasn't offered the world any great composers or even near-great composers that I can recall, but Ireland did give the world James Galway, who is arguably the world's greatest living flute player-par-excellence. Lesser is known John O'Conor, a wonderful pianist from Dublin who is a great and underrated practitioner of Beethoven.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

For all I know, composers such as Moeran, Maconchy and Sullivan had Irish ancestors. Perhaps not as glamorous as Sullivan but W.V. Wallace and M.W. Balfe were prominent Opera composers of the 19th century as well.

Although they are not favourites of mine at all, contemporary composers like Kevin Volans, Jennifer Walshe and Donnacha Dennehy are also composers of prominence I think. Possibly not so much renowned but I recall liking several works by composers like Ina Boyle, John Kinsella, Arthur Duff, Seóirse Bodley and Howard Ferguson. 

However, IMO the greatest ever Irish composer is by far C.V. Stanford towering well above Harty and Field. He is definitely a "Top 100" material for me.

One last thing, I could not find any information about this but the name "Finnissy" sounds very Irish to my ears. If that somehow counts, he is as reputable as it gets.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Wow. Your standards must be really high, as Ireland has produced many fine, near-great, and a couple of greats:

Arnold Bax
Ina Boyle
John Field
Patrick Gilmore
Victor Herbert
Hamilton Harty
John Kinsella
Charles Stanford

So none of them were up to Bach, Beethoven, or Brahms high level. They were nonetheless stupendously talented and produced a lot of immortal works. The other B, Bax, is a stunningly original composer and his music graces my playlist with far greater frequenc than the other Three-Bs combined!


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I don't think that people in Ireland were (or are) more or less gifted for music than in any other part of the world. If I am looking to the Irish folk music, I even find some evidence for the hypothesis that they are quite strong.

Whether a region produces composers or not, depends from a lot of things. If you have a region with high density of universities, of prosperity, where it is usual that children learn how to play some instrument, where you have conservatories or academys of music in every important city, where you have a culture of opera houses and orchestras, it is just more likely that young men with affinity to music get attracted to it and decide to go their way with music.

Afaik, there have been some hunger crisises in Ireland. There is a reason why some many people left Ireland and emigrated. No good conditions for have something as a musical high crop.

If it's not, how should some really highly talented guy born on some barnyard find out that music could be the center of his life?

What was the average musical culture in Ireland in the 17th, 18th, 19th century, compared to, say, England, France, Italy, Austria, Germany?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Highwayman said:


> For all I know, composers such as Moeran, Maconchy and Sullivan had Irish ancestors. Perhaps not as glamorous as Sullivan but W.V. Wallace and M.W. Balfe were prominent Opera composers of the 19th century as well.
> 
> Although they are not favourites of mine at all, contemporary composers like Kevin Volans, Jennifer Walshe and Donnacha Dennehy are also composers of prominence I think. Possibly not so much renowned but I recall liking several works by composers like Ina Boyle, John Kinsella, Arthur Duff, Seóirse Bodley and Howard Ferguson.
> 
> ...


Finnissy appears to be an anglicised version of an Irish name.

The young Liverpool goalkeeper's English name is Kevin Kelleher, while his Irish name is Caoimhin O'Cealleaghear. There's a very good young Irish jockey, called Ben Coen, who doesn't have a drop of Jewish blood in his body. Bridal Friel's Translations goes into England's cultural vandalism in Ireland in far greater detail, than I could possibly do so here…


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Philidor said:


> I don't think that people in Ireland were (or are) more or less gifted for music than in any other part of the world. If I am looking to the Irish folk music, I even find some evidence for the hypothesis that they are quite strong.
> 
> Whether a region produces composers or not, depends from a lot of things. If you have a region with high density of universities, of properity, where it is usual that children learn how to play some instrument, where you have conservatories or academys of music in every important city, where you have a culture of opera houses and orchestras, it is just more likely that young men with affinity to music get attracted to it and decide to go their way with music.
> 
> ...


Dublin was the British Empire's Second City in the 18th & 19th Century. Handel gave his 1st recital of the Messiah in Dublin… and yet, no composer of even middling repute emerged during that 200 year period.

Little Estonia absolutely crucifies Ireland when it comes to classical music.

Bax was an Englishman who loved Ireland. That Stanford & Harty are the best Ireland has produced in 2000 years is pretty pathetic…


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Ireland was a suppressed rural backwater until the early 20th century (or even late 20th century, though it wasn't suppressed anymore). As for their own composers, Britain, at that time the most powerful Empire, to which gifted Irish musicians might have gone for careers wasn't anything to write home about either. So it's not a great mystery that there were so few internationally recognized Irish composers.

There seem bigger "mysteries" to me, such that Spanish music apparently dried up almost completely after the early baroque with their major composers in the 18th century both being Italians (Scarlatti and Boccherini), considerably worse than Britain in the 18th and 19th century.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Apart from John Field - who supposedly invented the Nocturne - Ireland has produced no composer of any real repute in the past 2000 years.
> 
> How embarrassing this must be for such a musical people that their most famous composers are laughably bad, sub-human jet trash, such as Gerald Barry, Bill Whelan and Saorise Barry.
> 
> ...


Try to get hold of Jennifer Walsh's collection called "Historical Documents of the Irish Avant Garde." Linda Buckley is another top draw Irish composer.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

In case posters are wondering, I am Irish.

What I find strange is that a country with one of the greatest folk music traditions in the world, and whose Pale (Dublin), was at the very centre of the British Empire in the 18th Century, and could attract talent like Handel, was incapable of producing any great composer, during the 19th Century, beyond John Field.

Today in Ireland, the pig-ignorant, middle classes only go to concert halls to hear John Williams, Hans Zimmer and Ennis Morricone. 

The only outlier is a wonderful chamber music festival in West Cork, during June/July…


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Gerald Barry has been writing some very attractive music. I enjoy listening to his opera The Importance of Being Earnest - great fun - and have heard a number of his pieces that are both very approachable and very fresh. Not avant garde but not stuck in the mud either.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> Gerald Barry has been writing some very attractive music. I enjoy listening to his opera The Importance of Being Earnest - great fun - and have heard a number of his pieces that are both very approachable and very fresh. Not avant garde but not stuck in the mud either.


If Hell exists, and Alban Berg has been put there for some reason, then the Devil is forcing him to sit through an endless cycle of Gerald Barry's THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT…


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> How embarrassing this must be for such a musical people that their most famous composers are *laughably bad, sub-human jet trash*, such as Gerald Barry, Bill Whelan and Saorise Barry.
> 
> I suppose Sean O'Riada did write a nice serial/tone piece just before he died…
> 
> ...


Discuss how rude it is possible to be about a nation's musical traditions?

Or genuinely reflect on how the political and cultural history of a country aids or hinders a particular cultural tradition?


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Ludwig Schon said:


> In case posters are wondering, I am Irish.


There is a 1962 Irish film called *The Quare Fellow* starring Patrick McGoohan. Its music score is by Alexander Faris. Perhaps Faris wrote some concert music, too?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Prodromides said:


> There is a 1962 Irish film called *The Quare Fellow* starring Patrick McGoohan. Its music score is by Alexander Faris. Perhaps Faris wrote some concert music, too?


Paddy McGoohan from The Prisoner was a great Irish stage actor. Very good friends with Peter Falk and acted in and directed a number of episodes of Columbo.

The main song in The Quare Fellow, the Auld Triangle, was also written by Brendan Behan, whose play the film is based on. The song was made famous a decade later by Luke Kelly & The Dubliners:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Too damp. .


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I find it ironic that the same person who started a thread about "underrated, ignored or maligned" composers, has committed that sin regarding the composers of Ireland.

*12 Irish Composers You Should Know*

Aside from Classical music composers, Ireland has given birth to much of the folk music which crossed the ocean to the United States helping to spawn the music which would become what the world sings. Plenty of great singers and instrumentalists have come from Ireland. The land is virtually drenched in great music.

If I had to name countries for which music is a national character trait, Ireland would be on that list.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

SanAntone said:


> Aside from Classical music composers, Ireland has given birth to much of the folk music which crossed the ocean to the United States helping to spawn the music which would become what the world sings. Plenty of great singers and instrumentalists have come from Ireland. The land is virtually drenched in great music.


I think an earlier poster touched on the truth. Without great universities, without great patrons, without long-standing traditions to pass down to talented students, no formal non-utilitarian music such as classical arises out of nothing. Ireland HAS talented musicians, Ireland HAS talented composers, but the music traditions available to them are folk and popular.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Potato blight. Ireland has had many potato famines, and thus remained a poor subsistence-level society until recently.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> Potato blight. Ireland has had many potato famines, and thus remained a poor subsistence-level society until recently.


*Concerto for Potato and Leprechaun*


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

You obviously haven't done your research.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> In case posters are wondering, I am Irish.
> 
> What I find strange is that a country with one of the greatest folk music traditions in the world, and whose Pale (Dublin), was at the very centre of the British Empire in the 18th Century, and could attract talent like Handel, was incapable of producing any great composer, during the 19th Century, beyond John Field.
> 
> The only outlier is a wonderful chamber music festival in West Cork, during June/July…


Although you mention Handel, you forget Geminiani who was in Dublin in the 1730's. Although Geminiani never met Turlough O'Carolan, he had a high opinion of his abilities. O'Carolan's music is one of the high points of Irish music whether or not you consider him as a classical composer.

Apart from the chamber music festival in West Cork there is also a thriving early music scene in Galway with its own festival and Limerick will be having its second early music festival this year.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> If Hell exists, and Alban Berg has been put there for some reason, then the Devil is forcing him to sit through an endless cycle of Gerald Barry's THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT…


It seems you are avoiding the warning stated in your avatar? That is not an opera I know but from what I know of Barry's music would expect to like it as I'm sure many others do. Thank you for your recommendation. But I wonder what your point is or how Berg comes into the matter. Is it that Barry is not as forward looking as Berg was? Or is it about tragedy vs comedy?

In another post you are more clear that you dislike Barry's music and expect others to as well (you call it trash). I suppose you are another of those who hates relatively modern music (even when it is as benign and colourful as Barry's) and feel that those who disagree with you must be morons. You're entitled to your taste, of course, but so are we all. And between the two positions you might at least acknowledge that many (most) serious critics include Barry as one of the most more gifted and rewarding composers alive today.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

NoCoPilot said:


> I think an earlier poster touched on the truth. Without great universities, without great patrons, without long-standing traditions to pass down to talented students, no formal non-utilitarian music such as classical arises out of nothing. Ireland HAS talented musicians, Ireland HAS talented composers, but the music traditions available to them are folk and popular.


And yet, despite this situation, Ireland has produced more than its fair share of the truly great writers and poets of the last 100 years. Many of them seemed to delight in drawing extensively from the European tradition and melding it with both the intellectual and vernacular Irish experience.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> And yet, despite this situation, Ireland has produced more than its fair share of the truly great writers and poets of the last 100 years. Many of them seemed to delight in drawing extensively from the European tradition and melding it with both the intellectual and vernacular Irish experience.


Writing doesn't require an ensemble.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Apart from John Field - who supposedly invented the Nocturne - Ireland has produced no composer of any real repute in the past 2000 years.
> 
> How embarrassing this must be for such a musical people that their most famous composers are laughably bad, sub-human jet trash, such as Gerald Barry, Bill Whelan and Saorise Barry.
> 
> ...


Try to hear the Seán Ó Riada mass.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Wow. Your standards must be really high, as Ireland has produced many fine, near-great, and a couple of greats:
> 
> Arnold Bax


One of those greats, Arnold Bax was born in Streatham, South London, to two English parents. He was a British citizen, knighted, and appointed Master of the King's Music

He was even more English than me! (being born in east London to Italian and English parents).


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Thank god he wasn't Scottish. We'd be listening to bagpipe pastorales.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

NoCoPilot said:


> Thank god he wasn't Scottish. We'd be listening to bagpipe pastorales.


Lol!

Luckily Malx isn't online :lol:


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## That Guy Mick (May 31, 2020)

Does Turlough O'Carolan count?


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

How about Toxteth O'Grady?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

HenryPenfold said:


> One of those greats, Arnold Bax was born in Streatham, South London, to two English parents. He was a British citizen, knighted, and appointed Master of the King's Music
> 
> He was even more English than me! (being born in east London to Italian and English parents).


In fairness, he did identify as Irish, and if there's one wormhole you don't want to go down, it's identity politics. That said, Bax' greatest work is about Cornwall, though that too is a Celtic locale…


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

Ireland contributed Clannad. That should be enough!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

KevinJS said:


> Ireland contributed Clannad. That should be enough!


At least you never said Daniel O'Donnell...


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Clannad are risible.

If you want to listen to great Irish folk music, then check out Planxty or the Bothy Band:


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

elgars ghost said:


> At least you never said Daniel O'Donnell...


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## KevinJS (Sep 24, 2021)

elgars ghost said:


> At least you never said Daniel O'Donnell...


That's right. I didn't. This is, after all, a music forum.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> It seems you are avoiding the warning stated in your avatar? That is not an opera I know but from what I know of Barry's music would expect to like it as I'm sure many others do. Thank you for your recommendation. But I wonder what your point is or how Berg comes into the matter. Is it that Barry is not as forward looking as Berg was? Or is it about tragedy vs comedy?
> 
> In another post you are more clear that you dislike Barry's music and expect others to as well (you call it trash). I suppose you are another of those who hates relatively modern music (even when it is as benign and colourful as Barry's) and feel that those who disagree with you must be morons. You're entitled to your taste, of course, but so are we all. And between the two positions you might at least acknowledge that many (most) serious critics include Barry as one of the most more gifted and rewarding composers alive today.


The reason I mentioned Alban Berg, is because Barry's TBTOPVK, though based on RWF's film/script of the same name, is little more than cheap pastiche of Berg's opera, Lulu. Ordinarily Barry and Berg should not be mentioned in the same breath; the former being a suboptimal, tragic Oirish mess…


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

There are a plethora of public domain pieces composed by Irish People on IMSLP.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Ludwig Schon said:


> In fairness, he did identify as Irish, and if there's one wormhole you don't want to go down, it's identity politics. That said, Bax' greatest work is about Cornwall, though that too is a Celtic locale…


Yeah thats why I posted Bax was influenced by Ireland though he was actually British


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

golfer72 said:


> Yeah thats why I posted Bax was influenced by Ireland though he was actually British


English. Bax was English… There is no such thing as British, and the only Britain is Benjamin Britten…

Tintergal is an English/Celtic, masterpiece though…


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Ludwig Schon said:


> There is no such thing as British, and the only Britain is Benjamin Britten…


"Benjamin Brittenish?"


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> There is no such thing as British,


I think you'll find there is. The term is used - rightly or wrongly - to refer to people and things from one of the four constituent countries of the UK.

I guess it was thought that "UKish" wouldn't gain much traction among those who hold a British passport.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Maybe there is no great composer, which is a shame, but isn't the more important question is there any great/beautiful music?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Ludwig Schon said:


> The reason I mentioned Alban Berg, is because Barry's TBTOPVK, though based on RWF's film/script of the same name, is little more than cheap pastiche of Berg's opera, Lulu. Ordinarily Barry and Berg should not be mentioned in the same breath; the former being a suboptimal, tragic Oirish mess…


Thanks for responding and I see where you are coming from. But Barry's and Berg's work and aesthetic are as chalk and cheese; tragedy and comedy. Barry seems to be that rare thing, a master of modern comic opera. We have seen few comic masterpieces in the opera house since Mozart (or Rossini, anyway) - Albert Herring seems to be the main one - until now. I get that you dislike his music (fair enough) but hate to think that your disdain might stem from a misunderstanding of what he is about. I think that many listeners who are underwhelmed by this or that composer have often approached that composer expecting or wanting something different to what they can find there.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Forster said:


> I think you'll find there is. The term is used - rightly or wrongly - to refer to people and things from one of the four constituent countries of the UK.
> 
> I guess it was thought that "UKish" wouldn't gain much traction among those who hold a British passport.


And just to muddy the waters further The British Isles is a separate geographical term which includes the whole of Ireland as well as the bits like the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. The Irish, perhaps not surprisingly, aren't too keen on the term.

Maybe this diagram might help some people get a handle on this geopolitical can of worms!


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Enthusiast said:


> Thanks for responding and I see where you are coming from. But Barry's and Berg's work and aesthetic are as chalk and cheese; tragedy and comedy. Barry seems to be that rare thing, a master of modern comic opera. We have seen few comic masterpieces in the opera house since Mozart (or Rossini, anyway) - Albert Herring seems to be the main one - until now. I get that you dislike his music (fair enough) but hate to think that your disdain might stem from a misunderstanding of what he is about. I think that many listeners who are underwhelmed by this or that composer have often approached that composer expecting or wanting something different to what they can find there.


Chapeau! The first intelligent response I have had to one of my posts. My hatred of Barry stems from the muscle memory of taking an ex-girlfriend to see the premiere of TBTOPVK many moons ago. I had always loved RWF's film and was keen to see what a fellow Irishman would produce…


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

The standard analysis for the weakness of English music - lack of patrons and a limited role for church music and its use as a source of musical training applies even more to Ireland. Many landlords were English and absent. The religion of the ordinary Irish was subject to severe restriction. The independence movement was driven by a return to an (imaginary) Irish culture based on the Irish language and Gaelic games. In many ways this is epitomised by de Valera's 1943 speech






The speech didn't refer to "maidens dancing at the crossroads" although this is referenced in the video. This sort of dancing was moving out of favour as the showbands took over. Both Daniel O'Donnell and his sister Margo come from that tradition. Just up the road in Meenaleck is Leo's Tavern founded on showband profits and the home of Clannad and Enya. Round the corner in Ranafast is the birth place of Donal Luny. For all the sneers about Daniel O'Donnell and the Dungloe festival, it is interesting that Donal Luny's first hit was "Mary from Dungloe". Fascinating how so much music comes from a small rural area.

Interestingly, while working for RTE, Seán Ó Riada played piano in the evenings for dancing. Seán Ó Riada is a later example of the nationalist folk tradition - combining traditional Irish tunes and "sean-nós" songs in the classical tradition likeDvořák (Czech), Bartók (Hungarian) and Ralph Vaughan Williams (English). This really is a musical expression of de Valera's speech.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

HenryPenfold said:


> Lol!
> 
> Luckily Malx isn't online :lol:


I feel no need to respond H - but have alerted the Scottish/French Canadian Drone squadron based in Vancouver in case of any escalation of hostile remarks


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Wiki's list does not reach the height of a martello tower, but it's not that small either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_classical_composers

I think the most well-known/recorded ones are

Barry, Corcoran, Ferguson, Field, Harty, Herbert, Kinsella, Moeran, Stanford, Volans.

Corcoran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Corcoran
Got a 10-10: https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-3404/

Still, considering the cultural domination from England through the years, it's not that bad. Dutch or Belgian composers are also severely underrated, for example.

Contemporary composers form a plethora of 'generally unknowns' almost everywhere.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Taggart said:


> The standard analysis for the weakness of English music - lack of patrons and a limited role for church music and its use as a source of musical training applies even more to Ireland. Many landlords were English and absent. The religion of the ordinary Irish was subject to severe restriction. The independence movement was driven by a return to an (imaginary) Irish culture based on the Irish language and Gaelic games. In many ways this is epitomised by de Valera's 1943 speech
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mary Robinson also wittily referenced "maidens dancing at the crossroads" in her inaugural speech.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Malx said:


> I feel no need to respond H - but have alerted the Scottish/French Canadian Drone squadron based in Vancouver in case of any escalation of hostile remarks




.........


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Does English composer John Ireland count?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

joen_cph said:


> Wiki's list does not reach the height of a martello tower, but it's not that small either:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_classical_composers
> 
> ...


IMHO, Corcoran and O'Riada are by far the best Irish composers of the 20th Century. Volans is actually a Saffer, who fled Apartheid to live in Ireland.

I believe Standford Villiers's legacy suffered because of Irish independence. The fact he was from the Ascendancy and wrote so many puff pieces for British royalty/military meant he was never going to be promoted in De Valera's Ireland.

In many Irish peoples eyes, modern Irish classical music begins with Sean O'Riada's Mise Eire…


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Maybe because they can't resist incorporating strains of Danny Boy into everything.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)




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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

progmatist said:


> Does English composer John Ireland count?


Whatabout Edward German (1862-1936)?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

hammeredklavier said:


> Whatabout Edward German (1862-1936)?


Given he wrote the Emerald Isle that makes him about as Irish as Arnold Bax…


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Ireland has about 5 million people, same as South Carolina. Maybe ask the same question about them.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

Had Sean O'Riada not died from cirrhosis of the liver, aged 40, I think the classical music scene in Ireland would be very different today.

When I was growing up, I thought this piece from O'Riada's Mass was an ancient Irish choral work, rather than a work from just a few decades before…the man was a goddam' genius…


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

larold said:


> Ireland has about 5 million people, same as South Carolina. Maybe ask the same question about them.


How many goddam' geniuses come from South Carolina?


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

There’s almost as many people in prison in the USA (the vast majority BAME), as there are living in Ireland.

As my good friend Neil Young once sang: “Keep on rockin’ in the free world,”


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Prodromides said:


> How many goddam' geniuses come from South Carolina?


A late night talk show host hails from SC. I won't name him to avoid violating the no politics rule.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Had Sean O'Riada not died from cirrhosis of the liver, aged 40, I think the classical music scene in Ireland would be very different today.


Kind of reminds me of Spike Milligan when he (allegedly) said that although many people die of thirst only the Irish are born with it.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Prodromides said:


> How many goddam' geniuses come from South Carolina?


James Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Jasper Johns, Eartha Kitt, James Dickey...

As for the original question, I don't think it matters much. Why can't France, Italy, Germany or Scandinavia produce one fair to middling rock band? They just never did (imo)...I believe one reason may be that the modern symphony setup is kind of an alien thing for the "anglosphere" in the first place. It's a central European-Italian thing.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

dissident said:


> James Brown, Dizzy Gillespie, Jasper Johns, Eartha Kitt, James Dickey...
> 
> As for the original question, I don't think it matters much. Why can't France, Italy, Germany or *Scandinavia* produce one fair to middling rock band? They just never did (imo)...I believe one reason may be that the modern symphony setup is kind of an alien thing for the "anglosphere" in the first place. It's a central European-Italian thing.


With all respect, maybe you don't know enough about the Scandinavian rock scene. Savage Rose, active for 5+ decades since the late sixties, represents a rare quality for example, but they are too leftist and simply declined offers from the big American music industry after their first albums, as being too corrupting. A good deal of the bands have stuck to local language and musical inspiration, making them more niche-like.

Illustrating their varied oeuvre (they are partly formed by members of the classical composer H.D. Koppel's family):

The Shoeshine Boy 



Ride my Mountain 



The Shepherd & Sally 



Open Air Shop 



Vanished 



The Joker 



Mor Danmark 



You'll Know in the Morning 



Dear Little Mother 




etc.

In my opinion, it's actually the Anglo-American rock scene, that is comparatively overrated, with a lot of bland bands not really deserving their quasi-global status, but they are after all popular - and peace be with that.


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## Ludwig Schon (10 mo ago)

My American Friend is talking absolute nonsense. Norway has developed a whole new genre of heavy metal, Black Metal, producing wonderfully life affirming bands, such as Mayhem:









Prior to this, Santa's little helpers in other parts of Scandinavia produced excellent Prog Rock bands, such as

Samla Mammas Manna (Sweden)








Pekka Airaksinen (Finland)








Secret Oyster (Denmark)


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

> With all respect, maybe you don't know enough about the Scandinavian rock scene. Savage Rose, active for 5+ decades since the late sixties, represents a rare quality for example, but they are too leftist and simply declined offers from the big American music industry after their first albums, as being too corrupting.





> My American Friend is talking absolute nonsense. Norway has developed a whole new genre of heavy metal, Black Metal, producing wonderfully life affirming bands, such as Mayhem


Great. Now if we can get a consensus of rock fans whose base of reference consists of groups like Led Zeppelin, the Stones, Cream, the Jimi Hendrix Experience and so on, then these can be pulled out of fair-to-middling obscurity.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

dissident said:


> Great. Now if we can get a consensus of rock fans whose base of reference consists of groups like Led Zeppelin, the Stones, Cream, the Jimi Hendrix Experience and so on, then these can be pulled out of fair-to-middling obscurity.


You're right, I'm deviating from that lazy consensus.

But I've listened to them previously & they're in my collection.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> You're right, I'm deviating from that lazy consensus.
> 
> But I've listened to them previously & they're in my collection.


Who says that consensus is "lazy" just because it doesn't agree with you? Here's the point: I could take a couple of composers from this list:
https://www.wfmt.com/2020/03/16/12-irish-composers-you-should-know/

...and elevate them or sing their praises as you and Ludwig have done with obscure Scandinavian rock bands, et voila! Original question answered.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

The Beatles were basically Irish.

Lennon (English Mum/Irish Dad) McCartney (Irish Mum & Dad)


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

mbhaub said:


> Wow. Your standards must be really high, as Ireland has produced many fine, near-great, and a couple of greats:
> 
> Arnold Bax
> Ina Boyle
> ...


Can you plse explain me how Bax is supposed to be Irish. I also understand Stanford was born in Dublin but did not spend too much time there. The problem here is really that Irish composers had no backing and that is what the OP writer is getting at. The only one worth mentioning is Dennehy in my opinion. Maconchy is a difficult case as she had Irish parents but also spent most of her time in England.


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## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

Turlough O'Carolan?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Perhaps a root cause of this thread's premise is most Irish folk music is based on the pentatonic scale. Not that that's necessarily bad or less worthy, it just doesn't lend itself to prolific classical music.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> The Beatles were basically Irish.
> 
> Lennon (English Mum/Irish Dad) McCartney (Irish Mum & Dad)


In Liverpool (and Manchester) that proportion of Erin blood isn't exactly unusual, I suppose.


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## espressivo dolente (7 mo ago)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Had Sean O'Riada not died from cirrhosis of the liver, aged 40, I think the classical music scene in Ireland would be very different today.
> 
> When I was growing up, I thought this piece from O'Riada's Mass was an ancient Irish choral work, rather than a work from just a few decades before…the man was a goddam' genius…


Agree, except that Ó Riada gave art music up in favor of a return to Irish roots, an outcome as personal as it was socio-cultural and surely indicative of the colonial/ethnic conflict underlying your OP. It might be worth mentioning that among musicologists, there are those that see Avalon itself (!) as taking a musical back seat to France, Germany, Italy and Russia (I'm not among those, nor a musicologist, I hasten to add!).


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

OK, fair play. Ireland has yet to produce a home-grown Beethoven, Brahms or Mahler. What of it?

No other nation, large or small, has produced a man who could win a Nobel Prize for Literature AND play 1st-Class cricket. Take a bow, Sam Beckett.


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## espressivo dolente (7 mo ago)

Pat Fairlea said:


> OK, fair play. Ireland has yet to produce a home-grown Beethoven, Brahms or Mahler. What of it?
> 
> No other nation, large or small, has produced a man who could win a Nobel Prize for Literature AND play 1st-Class cricket. Take a bow, Sam Beckett.


And speak fluent French, to boot.


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

Ludwig Schon said:


> Apart from John Field - who supposedly invented the Nocturne - Ireland has produced no composer of any real repute in the past 2000 years.


Wales and Scotland haven't produced any great composers either and England (with a far bigger population) had a two hundred year gap between Purcell and Elgar (Handel doesn't count)


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## John O (Jan 16, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> Wow. Your standards must be really high, as Ireland has produced many fine, near-great, and a couple of greats:
> 
> Arnold Bax
> Ina Boyle
> ...


Why do you say Bax was Irish?


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

espressivo dolente said:


> And speak fluent French, to boot.


Naturellement!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

They will probably blame the English, just like the potato famine magically avoided all the protestants.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

elgar's ghost said:


> They will probably blame the English, just like the potato famine magically avoided all the protestants.


In 84 posts I haven't seen anyone saying that.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> In 84 posts I haven't seen anyone saying that.


No, it wasn't in the best of taste. It would have been the kind of flippant response I'd have saved for Ludwig Schon when he used to wind me up before he got banned. I retract. Apologies to anyone offended.


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