# Saxophone, yes or no?



## clavichorder

Do you always like the instrument? Do you generally like the instrument? Do you usually dislike it? Do you just plain hate it?

I refer to all saxophones and manner of playing them, but particularly altos and tenors.


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## violadude

Saxophones are sexy.


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## joen_cph

An instrument too ignored by composers - which is surprising, if one thinks of the sound of the oboe, by comparison ;-).

There aren´t that many relatively well-known solo saxophone concertos - Glazunov, Ibert, Villa Lobos are some of them. 

Yoshimatsu also wrote one - and Pettersson´s 16th Symphony is a Sinfonia Concertante for the saxophone, but very expressionistic.

Denisov´s would be interesting to hear.


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## clavichorder

And of course, there is that nice solo in Rachmaninoff's Symphonic Dances. That makes a good case for the inherent beauty to be found in the timbre of the saxophone.


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## Ukko

I think of it as a jazz instrument.

Is there some requirement for 'orchestratability' that makes the saxes an unwelcome challenge for classical composers?


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## Manxfeeder

I love saxophones so much that I have six of them - a soprano, three altos, a C melody, and a tenor. 

I've heard that saxophones aren't used in orchestras because their overtones don't quite fit in. The saxophone is half brass and half woodwind, so that hybrid quality keeps them mostly at a distance. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what I once heard.


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## Ravndal

I agree with Hilltroll about it being a Jazz instrument. Can't really imagine it being in a orchestra.


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## Ukko

Manxfeeder said:


> I love saxophones so much that I have six of them - a soprano, three altos, a C melody, and a tenor.
> 
> I've heard that saxophones aren't used in orchestras because their overtones don't quite fit in. The saxophone is half brass and half woodwind, so that hybrid quality keeps them mostly at a distance. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what I once heard.


Interesting. Maybe it's the combination of conical bore and 'semi-brassiness' that makes the overtones, ah, challenging for composers? the old brass 'band' clarinets sound OK to me. I hear no problem in the Debussy sax, but that may be because of Debussy.


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## Manxfeeder

Hilltroll72 said:


> Interesting. Maybe it's the combination of conical bore and 'semi-brassiness' that makes the overtones, ah, challenging for composers? the old brass 'band' clarinets sound OK to me. I hear no problem in the Debussy sax, but that may be because of Debussy.


Yeah, it can be done. As Clavichorder mentioned, the Russians didn't have much of a problem with them. And I've noticed them popping up in more recent pieces.

One nice thing about taking them away from orchestras is, players have been free to explore their possibilities. Instead of being confined to one official sound, saxophones have very different sounds - from the sandpaper tone of early David Sanborn to the dry martini sound produced by Paul Desmond. And its slightly out of tune overtones have been used to its advantage with players like Pharoah Sanders and his sonorous blocks of sound. Classical composers have used these techniques to some degree (like Berio's Sequenza) but not with the same degree of freedom.


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## Prodromides

I voted "generally positive" because I always like the saxophone in classical compositions, but not always in jazz music.

Here's a clip of "Legende" by Andre Caplet; this version is for saxophone with chamber orchestra.





Charles Koechlin wrote _Etudes_ for saxophone and piano. Here's two of them:





Richard Rodney Bennett's saxophone concerto, split into 2 YT clips:









_quatuor pour saxophones_ by Florent Schmitt:

















Hope you enjoy!


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## Hassid

I like very much the sound of the sax quartets. Have a dozen works, and all really lovely pieces. There were even a recording of the complete Bach´s Art for saxes, but i never heard it.


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## arpeggio

Manxfeeder said:


> I love saxophones so much that I have six of them - a soprano, three altos, a C melody, and a tenor.
> 
> I've heard that saxophones aren't used in orchestras because their overtones don't quite fit in. The saxophone is half brass and half woodwind, so that hybrid quality keeps them mostly at a distance. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what I once heard.


A good orchestrator will understand the pros and cons of employing saxophones in an orchestra. When a composer knows what he is doing, it can be very effective.


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## clavichorder

Ravndal said:


> I agree with Hilltroll about it being a Jazz instrument. Can't really imagine it being in a orchestra.


Have you heard Symphonic Dances? Makes a strong case for its potential in that arena.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Uh, do I need to post _it_ here?


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## pendereckiobsessed

Saxes have such a beautiful tone and timbre


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## elgar's ghost

I like the sax in general (and have no problem with it being used in CM) but it must be said that it is an instrument that can sound really cheesy and crass when in the wrong hands - Kenny G, Spandau Ballet, UB40, Sade, Simply Red... I was especially dismayed when blues band George Thorogood and the Destroyers decided to use a sax player - totally surplus to requirements.


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## Meaghan

Clavi already knows this, but I've just never really liked the timbre of saxophone. I can appreciate very good saxophonists and admire their playing, I just don't like the instrument. I guess I'm an exception.


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## Ukko

Meaghan said:


> Clavi already knows this, but I've just never really liked the timbre of saxophone. I can appreciate very good saxophonists and admire their playing, I just don't like the instrument. I guess I'm an exception.


You probably aren't 'an exception' (unless of course you want to be ). There must be a significant number of folks who are uncomfortable with the overtones. Even I, who listens to jazz, have an 'adjustment period' during which those distract me.


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## millionrainbows

I consider it a jazz instrument as well.

However...there are exceptions.


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## quack

I don't generally like sax much in jazz or classical, maybe they just sound too much like distressed geese. Sounds much better in ska, punk or Fela jammin


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## Manxfeeder

millionrainbows said:


> I consider it a jazz instrument as well.
> 
> However...there are exceptions.


John Coltrane, Gigi Gryce, and Coleman Hawkins are in the same room, and he comes up with _this_?


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## DrKilroy

I like their use in Vaughan Williams' symphonies, music of Gershwin and Ravel's Bolero and orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition.  

Best regards, Dr

PS Oh, and in jazz of course, especially with vibrato.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Meaghan said:


> Clavi already knows this, but I've just never really liked the timbre of saxophone. I can appreciate very good saxophonists and admire their playing, I just don't like the instrument. I guess I'm an exception.


Maybe this will be the magic love potion:






Just doing my job. :tiphat:


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## Ravndal

clavichorder said:


> Have you heard Symphonic Dances? Makes a strong case for its potential in that arena.


Link?


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## Manxfeeder

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Maybe this will be the magic love potion:


Let's hope so! :wave: If not, we can try this one:


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## Ukko

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Maybe this will be the magic love potion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just doing my job. :tiphat:


Very nice, _Huilun_. Along with doing _Meaghan_ a service, you are improving my opinion of Glazunov's music.


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## clavichorder

Ravndal said:


> Link?


Yoh link sah Ravndal :tiphat:

The solo starts at 3:15


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## samurai

Try some Trane and a lot of Desmond! :cheers:


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## Xaltotun

I hate it when this instrument is played so that it's supposed to sound sexy. I'm sure it can be played in other, better ways, but even thinking about the sound of the "sexyphone" makes my stomach turn.


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## clavichorder

Xaltotun said:


> I hate it when this instrument is played so that it's supposed to sound sexy. I'm sure it can be played in other, better ways, but even thinking about the sound of the "sexyphone" makes my stomach turn.


I have to admit, the whole sexy thing doesn't do it for me at all either.


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## Ukko

clavichorder said:


> I have to admit, the whole sexy thing doesn't do it for me at all either.


OK, you crazy mixed up kids, what constitutes 'sexy sax'?


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## Xaltotun

When it sounds "slimy" and "cheap"... like in a TV coffee or chocolate commercial. I don't know how to describe it much better, I'm afraid. You feel that your emotions are being manipulated by surface, not substance.


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## arpeggio

*Grainger and the Saxophone*

Percy Grainger was a proponant of the saxophone.

He served as a saxophonist in an U. S. Army Band from 1917-1918.

In a letter he worte:

"Around 1904, Balfour Gardiner & I heard our first sax-reed (a tenor) near Frome, Somerset. A man in a country band played one to us. And I knew then & there that I was hearing the world's finest wind-tone-tool - the most voice-like, the most mankind-typed."

See: http://www.totheforepublishers.com/grainger8.html


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## elgar's ghost

The WRONG kind of sexy sax - syrupy, cheesy, over-smooth. Think of the sax break in Manhattan Transfer's Chanson D'Amour (but as that was a pastiche I'll let it go) or the intro to Harden My Heart by Quarterflash. Then there's the theme to TV's Poirot - almost makes me retch.

The RIGHT kind of sexy sax - any solo that's actually capable of enhancing the music even if the music's already good (i.e. Bobby Keys on the Stones' Brown Sugar, Dick Parry on Pink Floyd's Us & Them, Chris Wood on Traffic's Tragic Magic etc.


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## clavichorder

There is a right kind, thank you for reminding me as I got swept up in a Xaltotun's vision of the sexy sax, which also hit home. Bobby Key's Brown Sugar is actually something I used to really get into when I much younger, so I obviously do not have an intinctual distaste for the more seductive aspects of a sax's timbre.


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## Manxfeeder

elgars ghost said:


> The WRONG kind of sexy sax - syrupy, cheesy, over-smooth. Think of the sax break in Manhattan Transfer's Chanson D'Amour. Then there's the theme to TV's Poirot - almost makes me retch.
> 
> T


I just pulled up the Manhattan Transfer. Wow, they usually have better musicians than that. As far as Poirot, I won't comment on the theme itself, but I actually like the tone of the Alto player. And I think it's a nice touch to have a theme song for a Belgian detective played on an instrument invented by a Belgian.


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## Cnote11

I remember the first time I saw Poirot. I couldn't help but insult the music! Perhaps it has a little charm though.


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## elgar's ghost

Cnote11 said:


> I remember the first time I saw Poirot. I couldn't help but insult the music! Perhaps it has a little charm though.


If it has then sadly it's still lost on me! Manxfeeder mentioned the Belgian connection between Poirot and the instrument - that was clever example of using 'ze little grey cells' but I wouldn't know whether the programme producers intended it or not.


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## PhileasFogg

I vote no. Their timbre is aesthetically pleasing on a surface level, but not evocative of anything other than jazzyness. Likely at least partially a cultural association but that's not a bad thing, it makes it very effective in other types of music


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## Jzer

You have to realize that there is an entirely different tonal approach to classical saxophone than there is to jazz saxophone. Judging from some of the responses, it sounds like some of you are envisioning sticking Charlie Parker in the middle of an orchestra. This, of course, wouldn't work. It's an effective instrument in classical ensembles IF played _appropriately_.


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## KenOC

"A gentleman is someone who can play the saxophone but doesn't."


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## obwan

Well not my favorite instrument but it has its uses. Though, there is so little difference in timbre/sound between it and the clarinet, i don't really see any justification in establishing it as a standard member of symphonic orchestra. Although its place in Jazz is well deserved.


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## Manxfeeder

Jzer said:


> You have to realize that there is an entirely different tonal approach to classical saxophone than there is to jazz saxophone. Judging from some of the responses, it sounds like some of you are envisioning sticking Charlie Parker in the middle of an orchestra. This, of course, wouldn't work. It's an effective instrument in classical ensembles IF played _appropriately_.


Yeah, Charlie Parker's sound worked when he stood _in front of_ an orchestra.


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## Ukko

obwan said:


> Well not my favorite instrument but it has its uses. Though, there is so little difference in timbre/sound between it and the clarinet, i don't really see any justification in establishing it as a standard member of symphonic orchestra.
> [...]


Say what? C'mon guy; the timbral differences are _significant_.


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## obwan

No, not really.


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## Harmonie

The saxophone is one of my top favorite instruments (alongside my instrument - the bassoon and the oboe/English horn), so, of course, I have positive feelings for it.

I don't always love the style in to which it is played (like sometimes in rock music solos), but I think that the instrument naturally has a very pretty sound and I love playing it (I have a tenor). The sound of a tenor I just love, that's why I finally had to get one. lol


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## Piwikiwi

I still have some problems with classical saxophone. mainly because a saxophone for me sounds like this


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## DrKilroy

If I ever became an influential composer (who knows?), I would estabilish a saxophone section among other standard woodwind sections, as Sax himself intended it. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Garlic

My favourite classical saxophone piece






The sax here sounds much more jazz-inflected than in other classical pieces.

In general saxophone seems greatly underused in classical music. A baritone sax concerto would be awesome.


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## Manxfeeder

Kudos to John Adams for premiering his saxophone concerto last month.


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## Manxfeeder

Garlic said:


> The sax here sounds much more jazz-inflected than in other classical pieces.


This piece is interesting, because the sax doesn't have the tubby tone that you usually hear in the concert hall.

Personally, after 100 years of jazz saxophonists, I think classical composers should hear this piece and be inspired to exploit all the sounds which have been explored for this instrument.


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## arpeggio

*Walter Hartly*

Walter Hartly has composed a ton of music for saxophone, including works for the baritone. Link to his web site:
http://www.walterhartley.com/Saxophone.htm

The only performance of the Baritone Sax Sonate I could find on You Tube is by a high school student. It is pretty good for a young player: 




I found two recordings. The one on Naxos I have: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=5106&name_role1=1&bcorder=1&comp_id=241657

The one with Kenneth Tse looks like it might be a good one. I have to put it on my wish list: http://www.amazon.com/American-Exhibition-Various/dp/B00007FGE7/ref=sr_sp-btf_image_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1378868743&sr=1-17&keywords=walter+hartley


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## KenOC

Manxfeeder said:


> Kudos to John Adams for premiering his saxophone concerto last month.


Kudos indeed! Has anybody heard this?


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## arpeggio

*U. S Premier*



Manxfeeder said:


> Kudos to John Adams for premiering his saxophone concerto last month.


I will be attending the U. S. premier on September 21, 2013 with the Baltimore Symphony, Marin Alsop, conductor and Tim McAllister, saxophone.


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## aleazk

Garlic said:


> My favourite classical saxophone piece
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sax here sounds much more jazz-inflected than in other classical pieces.
> 
> In general saxophone seems greatly underused in classical music. A baritone sax concerto would be awesome.


Very nice piece, I quite liked it, thanks for sharing.


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## bellbottom

Forget about creating tunes, when i tried saxophone i found it very very difficult, even though i thought i was master of instruments! So can't say! But looks are fine, even the buttons are cool sleek!


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## Classical Saxophonist

The saxophone is a great classical instrument. It is a standard member of the concert band/wind ensemble; it has a large solo repertoire with orchestra, concert band, and piano; it is used in chamber music (saxophone quartets, reed quintets, etc); and it is sometimes used in the orchestra.

The reason that the saxophone isn't a standard member of the orchestra has nothing to do with the way it sounds. The saxophone, when played using a classical saxophone mouthpiece and classical reeds, blends amazingly with other instruments.

Also realize that classical saxophonists sound completely different than jazz saxophonists. The drastic difference in tone comes mainly from mouthpiece and reed design. A jazz mouthpiece will generally have a baffle, which helps create a bright, buzzy, and edgy tone. A classical mouthpiece, on the other hand, has little to no baffle and helps create a round and warm tone.

Listen to this video and notice how much different this classical saxophonist sounds from a jazz saxophonist:


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## Marcel

Manxfeeder said:


> I love saxophones so much that I have six of them - a soprano, three altos, a C melody, and a tenor.
> 
> I've heard that saxophones aren't used in orchestras because their overtones don't quite fit in. The saxophone is half brass and half woodwind, so that hybrid quality keeps them mostly at a distance. It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what I once heard.


Hello Manxfeeder, I would like to me to teach if is very difficult learning the instrument at the beginning of the study. I tried to study trumpet and French Horn for several years but with frustrating results. I would like to dismiss me this life having enjoyed the run of a wind instrument. Think of soprano saxophone and bassoon, but the latter seems very complicated already from the purchase of the instrument since it is very expensive. Moreover, I like soprano sax specially from I listen a recording version of "The Dowland Project". Here I listen a solo of this instrument that is very beauty. Thanks and greetings.


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## Manxfeeder

Marcel,

The soprano is a little tricker than the other saxes because you have to keep aware of your intonation, but I think it's a lovely instrument. I really enjoy playing mine. 

There's an interesting and well-written book, The Devil's Horn, by Michael Segell, who documents the history of the saxophone interspersed with his experiences in learning the saxophone. You might find it interesting.


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## maestro267

I love the saxophone! It's employed wonderfully in two of Vaughan Williams' symphonies (tenor in 6 and a trio of them in 9), and the first movement of Villa-Lobos' Bachianas Brasileiras No. 2 has a tenor saxophone singing the main theme.


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## Guest

I'm definitely pro-sax, perhaps even more so in an electroacoustic context: 
http://www.allmusic.com/performance/on-going-on-for-saxophone-mq0000493409


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## LarryShone

How can you not like a sax? I mean really?
Question is which range do you favour?


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## Pianistin

Love classical saxophone, particularly alto. I don't like the sound of some jazz saxophone, but in general I like it. I had the good fortune to see the John Adams saxophone concerto at the proms recently.


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## SixFootScowl

The only saxophone I care to hear is that played by Edgar Winter. Of course that is not classical. If I am hearing saxophone in any classical that I listen to. I am not aware of it.


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## Richannes Wrahms

I like Glazunov's concerto more than any of his other works (to which I rarely listen to anyway), but, no. Orchestralwise, better work with bassoons, horns and clarinets than with something that stands out as a cheese imitation of them.


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## Xenol

The sleazyist of all instruments. Just a worse sounding clarinet IMO XD.


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## 20centrfuge

I've always felt saxophones should have a more permanent home in the symphony orchestra. When you think about the alto voice in an orchestra you are left with violas, horns, and not much else. There really isn't an alto voice in the woodwind section (sure low register clarinets and upper register bassoons but that's splitting hairs). I think it is a voice that adds warmth to the orchestra. Whenever I hear saxophone in the orchestra setting (as in Ravel's 'Pictures' or Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet or Lt. Kije I have enjoyed them.

The saxophone is a beautiful instrument.


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## Fagotterdammerung

Saxophone is probably my favorite woodwind instrument - a lovely mix of horn, clarinet, and double reed timbre in one ( or rather, a family of ) instrument(s).


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## MoonlightSonata

I must confess that I am generally not that fond of the saxophone. Sometimes though, when played particularly well, it has a truly beautiful sound.


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## donnie a

Classical Saxophonist said:


> Also realize that classical saxophonists sound completely different than jazz saxophonists. The drastic difference in tone comes mainly from mouthpiece and reed design. A jazz mouthpiece will generally have a baffle, which helps create a bright, buzzy, and edgy tone. A classical mouthpiece, on the other hand, has little to no baffle and helps create a round and warm tone.


Absolutely-I play the saxophone myself (or once did, anyway), and agree that there is a huge difference between the refined, rounded classical sound and bright, strident jazz tone. Having said that, I think the saxophone in the orchestra functions best as a solo instrument, an outstanding example being the the Old Castle in Ravel orchestration of Pictures.

I've always found it a fascinating instrument on its own terms, particularly the larger sizes. I loved playing the baritone, and always wanted to get my hands on a bass, but they are rare critters.


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## Piwikiwi

Classical Saxophonist said:


> The reason that the saxophone isn't a standard member of the orchestra has nothing to do with the way it sounds. The saxophone, when played using a classical saxophone mouthpiece and classical reeds, blends amazingly with other instruments.
> 
> Also realize that classical saxophonists sound completely different than jazz saxophonists. The drastic difference in tone comes mainly from mouthpiece and reed design. A jazz mouthpiece will generally have a *baffle*, which helps create a bright, buzzy, and edgy tone. A classical mouthpiece, on the other hand, has little to no baffle and helps create a round and warm tone.


Nobody played with a baffle when I was a music major(2 years ago), it was in the 80's when that sound was popular.


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## Piwikiwi

donnie a said:


> Absolutely-I play the saxophone myself (or once did, anyway), and agree that there is a huge difference between the refined, rounded classical sound and bright, strident jazz tone. Having said that, I think the saxophone in the orchestra functions best as a solo instrument, an outstanding example being the the Old Castle in Ravel orchestration of Pictures.
> 
> I've always found it a fascinating instrument on its own terms, particularly the larger sizes. I loved playing the baritone, and always wanted to get my hands on a bass, but they are rare critters.


Do you call something like this strident?


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## donnie a

Piwikiwi said:


> Do you call something like this strident?


Yes, that's definitely the jazzier tone I was thinking of. "Strident" probably is not the right word. It's not strident in a harsh or negative sense, but definitely edgier different than the classical sound. Compare this with the Larrson concerto on the previous page. Of course, that's an alto and this is a tenor, so it's kind of comparing apples and oranges, but still I hear it as a distinct difference in timbre.


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## Piwikiwi

donnie a said:


> Yes, that's definitely the jazzier tone I was thinking of. "Strident" probably is not the right word. It's not strident in a harsh or negative sense, but definitely edgier different than the classical sound. Compare this with the Larrson concerto on the previous page. Of course, that's an alto and this is a tenor, so it's kind of comparing apples and oranges, but still I hear it as a distinct difference in timbre.


I was a bit too fast to go on the defensive, my apologies. Yes it is very different and I must say that I like the classical alto and soprano sound but I think the standard classical tenor sound is too closed off in some way.


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## donnie a

The tone of the sax can and has been modified to suit different music of different times, it seems. I understand that the old saxophones from many decades ago had a really muted and dark sound compared to the modern instrument. I haven't heard one in person.

But along these lines, I happened to notice in the background of a YouTube film I was watching what must be an example of this sound. This film is a short color tour of Hollywood made in 1931 (fascinating is you have an interest in old films). Although the sound track has degraded and lost some of the high frequencies through the years, the sound of the saxophones in the background music is strikingly different, especially around 4:50.


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## Guest

I think it a beautiful instrument; but haven't come across it much in "classical" music yet. Maybe in more contemporary?

ROVA cite influences including Charles Ives, Edgard Varese, Olivier Messiaen, Iannis Xenakis and Morton Feldman.

They make very interesting music, IMO.

http://rova.org/index.html


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## QuietGuy

Generally no. Most of the time, the timbre grates on my nerves. But I like listening to the Boots Randolph-Yakety Sax style of playing in old Benny Hill sketches!


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## Fagotterdammerung

gog said:


> I think it a beautiful instrument; but haven't come across it much in "classical" music yet. Maybe in more contemporary?


Lots of Contemporary - but quite a bit from French composers as well, dating into the late 19th century.

Here are some widely-recorded saxophone works you may ( or may not ) find enjoyable:

Glazunov - Saxophone Concerto
Debussy - Rapsodie for Orchestra and Saxophone
Milhaud - Scaramouche for Alto Saxophone 
Villa-Lobos - Fantasia for Soprano Saxophone 
Glass - Concerto for Saxophone Quartet


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## Guest

Fagotterdammerung said:


> Lots of Contemporary - but quite a bit from French composers as well, dating into the late 19th century.
> 
> Here are some widely-recorded saxophone works you may ( or may not ) find enjoyable:
> 
> Glazunov - Saxophone Concerto
> Debussy - Rapsodie for Orchestra and Saxophone
> Milhaud - Scaramouche for Alto Saxophone
> Villa-Lobos - Fantasia for Soprano Saxophone
> Glass - Concerto for Saxophone Quartet


Thanks. I'll investigate.


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## ahammel

...............


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## Piwikiwi

donnie a said:


> The tone of the sax can and has been modified to suit different music of different times, it seems. I understand that the old saxophones from many decades ago had a really muted and dark sound compared to the modern instrument. I haven't heard one in person.
> 
> But along these lines, I happened to notice in the background of a YouTube film I was watching what must be an example of this sound. This film is a short color tour of Hollywood made in 1931 (fascinating is you have an interest in old films). Although the sound track has degraded and lost some of the high frequencies through the years, the sound of the saxophones in the background music is strikingly different, especially around 4:50.


That vibrato, it is so awful


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## Skilmarilion

With 4:04 in mind (below), it's an emphatic yes.


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## donnie a

That is a beautiful solo, indeed. I'd never heard it. Thank you for posting!


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## Skilmarilion

donnie a said:


> That is a beautiful solo, indeed. I'd never heard it. Thank you for posting!


Do give the whole work a listen, if you haven't before.

It's just splendid, from beginning to end.


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## Azol

QuietGuy said:


> Generally no. Most of the time, the timbre grates on my nerves.


Exactly my thoughts. Big NO to tenor/alto saxophone.

Clarinet is saxophone's closest relation and that's generally enough thank you very much 

Soprano sax works for me sometimes when used cleverly. One of the best examples - *Rihards Dubra "Te Deum"* for choir, organ and soprano saxophone. Amazing!


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## ColColt

Other than drums, it was the first instrument I wanted to learn but never did. I've changed that in my old age and now am getting a tenor sax just because If I learn no other song, I want to learn "Danny Boy", Sil Austin style like this young fellow that does him well.


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## Manxfeeder

ColColt said:


> I've changed that in my old age and now am getting a tenor sax just because If I learn no other song, I want to learn "Danny Boy", Sil Austin style like this young fellow that does him well.


That style isn't that complicated. You should be able to play like that in six months. Learning the notes won't be that hard; your focus should be on getting that sound.


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## ColColt

I think I'd like to try at any rate. I'm bidding on a Buescher Aristocrat today that ends soon.


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## Manxfeeder

Cool. Good luck!


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## ColColt

I just won the bid for $410...a new toy on the way soon.


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## Manxfeeder

Wow, great price.


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## ColColt

Yep, it could have been a lot more. Of course, I'd love to have the Selmer MkVI but I've had too many cars that didn't cost what most of those do.


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## Manxfeeder

Yeah. I have a Mark VI alto. It's nice. But in your case, a good mouthpiece won't set you back too far.


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## ColColt

That's a marvelous instrument and wish I could own one but, I'll be most content with the Buescher. At least it's a piece of Americana.


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## Bellinilover

I voted for "generally negative with exceptions." My favorite use of the saxophone is undoubtedly in Christopher Gunning's theme to "Poirot" (of which I was surprised to see a couple of negative opinions upthread!). It's funny -- my mom, a pianist, can't stand the saxophone but loves the "Poirot" theme.


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## ColColt

Long ago I head it once called the devil's horn...never figured that one out and didn't ask.


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## dwindladwayne

violadude said:


> Saxophones are sexy.


Simple, holy truth


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## Rudy

I played sax in school. Alto first (as we all did), then was switched to tenor, which sort of became my trademark. Our school had a silver Selmer soprano sax I played occasionally, but (and this is quite a testament to its age) it was an A-436 horn which made it a real booger to play in tune throughout its scale.

I later had a soprano bought as a gift, something close to a student grade model, which I still have (needing all new pads), but I sold off the Selmer Mk VII tenor many years ago when things were tight. Wish I'd kept it, but it sold for more than what my folks paid for it brand new.

I bought a flute a couple of years ago and actually prefer playing it a lot more than a sax. No reeds, lighter weight, easier to store and carry. But I'd need some lessons.

For listening? I have a few favorites, but overall I'd rather listen to something else. (Favorites are Paul Desmond, John Klemmer, Cannonball, Trane, David Sanborn (in more recent years), Bob Mintzer, and some others. And I absolutely _hate_ the soprano. Probably due to all the hacks who wail away on it relentlessly. I've only heard a few I like, and oddly enough, they turn out to be the old _curved_ sopranos.

So I suppose I have a mixed vote here.

Our high school band teacher hated the sax with a passion, but that was only due to his ex-wife being a sax player...


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## Joe 85

Adolphe Sax showed a bass saxophone to Berlioz in 1841. Berlioz wrote an article praising the new saxophone on June 12, 1842. The instrument was revealed to the public at the Paris Industrial Exhibition in 1844. The saxophone was first written for by Berlioz and performed a sextet arrangement of his choral work "Chante Sacre" for 2 trumpets, 1bugel, 2 clarinets and 1 baritone saxophone on Feb. 3, 1844 which is now lost.


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## Guest

Deleted post. See below.


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## Guest

Just a quick update to answer to OP again: in Strasbourg, most definitely "Yes" !!
http://www.saxopen.com/en
http://www.saxopen.com/en/project

Unfortunately, I missed the event because of holiday absence, but I did make some prior and very modest contributions ...


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## Tedski

Skilmarilion said:


> With 4:04 in mind (below), it's an emphatic yes.
> 
> I only regret that this BB only has a "Like" button, but no "Really Really Like" button.


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## Pawelec

I have a feeling Mozart would like saxophones. Saxes do the same thing to oboe sound that basset horns do to clarinet's.


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## WhoseLineFan

Yes.

I love it when females play it.


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## Chopiniana93

I *love* saxophone, it has a beautiful tone that matches good with most of the instruments!


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## Didnasker

While I enjoy the sound of the Saxophone in any suitable composition (to include Jazz), I can easily see it as grating if improperly voiced for the genre... BTW... my bride, who enjoys music every bit as much as I do, tells me that the Sax is like 'fingernails on a chalkboard..." A matter of personal taste for sure...


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## Ralphus

I'm a classical saxophonist by training and profession, so I say, "Yes."

I've performed lots of Gershwin, Ravel "Bolero", Prokofiev "Lieutenant Kije Suite" with the Sydney Symphony many years ago. Rachmaninov "Symphonic Dances", and Bizet "L'Arlessienne Suites" with the Malaysian Philharmonic. I've also performed Milhaud "Creation of the World", Britten "Sinfonia da Requiem", and Bernstein "West Side Story Symphonic Dances" with amateur orchestras. 

There are a few things to consider. Firstly, the standard of classical saxophone playing has improved greatly over the last decade or two. This is partly thanks to Dutch and French players as well as improvements in instruction and instrument design (Selmer Serie III, Yanagisawa, mouthpieces). Also, as more and more composers write for it, familiarity and expectations are heightened. The best of the current Dutch players can stand alongside any other woodwind professional. Things are better everywhere else in the world, too (esp. UK, USA, Australia, Italy, East Asia). In the past, you could hear lots of recordings with quite poor saxophone playing. I recall a Virgin recording of the Lausanne Ch Orc. doing the Milhaud in which the sax player makes lots of mistakes, including false entries. Some of the Dutoit Montreal Prokofiev recordings include some hesitant tenor sax playing. These days, players like Arno Bornkamp, Niels Bijl, Claude Delngle and others play with major orchestras all over the world.

I bumped into Louis Andriessen outside the Donemus office in Amsterdam many years ago and he said that he wanted to replace flutes and clarinets with a quartet of saxophones in his orchestral writing. I haven't checked whether he did or not.

It is true that there is a dearth of really great pieces by really great composers, but it's also true that there are more than most people may think. Highlights in my opinion: Villa-Lobos Fantasia, Glazunov Concerto, Martin Ballade, Creston Sonata, Caplet Legende, Yoshimatsu Fuzzy-Bird Sonata, Decruck Sonata, Larsson Concerto, Maurice Tableaux de Provence, Schmitt Legende, Glass Quartet (Concerto), Nyman Where the Bee Dances, Nyman Songs for Tony, Thompson Quartet no.2...probably others I can't think of.


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## Manxfeeder

Ralphus said:


> I'm a classical saxophonist by training and profession, so I say, "Yes."


Thanks for your input. I studied classical saxophone briefly back in the day with a clinic by Harvey Pittell and took lessons from one of his students, but there wasn't much going back then in the classical field to inspire me to pursue it further; there was much more happening in jazz. I'm glad the genre is gaining more enthusiasm. I'm impressed with the classical saxophonists I have heard recently.


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## Pat Fairlea

Mrs Pat's sister is a sax player, so I get to hear this family of instruments in assorted combinations. Personally, I really appreciate the timbre and versatility of the baritone, tenor and alto sax, but find the soprano and sopranino just a bit too shrill and squeaky. One of her ensembles uses a bass sax. You don't so much hear it as sense a disquieting resonance in the bowels.


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## Manxfeeder

Pat Fairlea said:


> One of her ensembles uses a bass sax.


Once I had the opportunity to borrow one to play at a concert in Pomona College's Bridges Hall with its resonant acoustic. I loved playing in the range of the bass trombones and tubas. It does have a visceral effect, especially when you can hear it bouncing off the walls.


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## Gordontrek

Admittedly, but without much regret, my least favorite instrument of the wind ensemble. They can sound quite nice on their own, but a whole section? Ehhh.


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## Pugg

Yes, positive feelings specially in jazz.


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## ArtMusic

Yes, it is a vibrant instrument great for melodious music. It would be wonderful if there is more concertos for sax and orchestra based on tonal harmonics.


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## Hfrank83

Hello everyone! I just entered this forum and I find the topic really interesting. I am jazz saxophonist but I was classically trained. While I voted yes for me it really depends. While I love great " classical" works and not necessarily with saxophone, I believe the classical sax has a LONG way to go. The difference between classical and jazz sax tone approach has very little to do with set up( mouthpiece, reed...) but yes it helps. The amount of overtones present in the popular sax in general don't come from a baffle. Actually most straight ahead jazz players hate baffles. I comes from a relaxed embouchure a really personal clear idea of how you want to sound. Baffles are used mostly in Rock where you have to altered the frequency of your sound to be heard. Theoretically speaking the saxophone wasn't born as a jazz instrument and I have had the pleasure to be able to play an original Adolph sax prototype with the original wooden mouthpiece and that instrument is a complete different beast from the saxophone we know now a days. The modern saxophone(no matter the brand) has more to do with the jazz sound. I used to do some research for Selmer and Trust me on this one, in order to make the modern sax more in-line with the classical ideal tone you have to hugely reshape most of the physical characteristics of the horn, reshape even the angle the mouthpiece beak and chamber are now. Of course they will never tell you the truth at Selmer or any other company since they only want to sell and since the instrument is flexible enough it's possible to make it sound in a classical way anyway. The explanation is so long and complex that I would't know how to start. The main idea is this one. In every single instrument there are different frequency of harmonics coming out some of those you can hear them and some don't. The tricky part here is that the ONLY difference between a saxophone sound, a flute or whatever else is the actual amount of harmonics. Scientifically speaking if it wasn't because the of the natural harmonic frequency between instruments they would ALL sound the same to the human ear. In reality although you need an amazing control over the horn to master the classical approach this is only actually dampening the harmonic resonance of the actual modern saxophone. Again it can be used in classical and I hope I will hear it more often in the realm since there are amazing works of contemporary composers but I think the way to make it popular in classical as it's in jazz and popular music is to approach it as a new voice not playing parts of intruments with centuries of experience before sax was born.


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## Hfrank83

By the way the soprano doesn't sound harsh if you don't try to make it sound like a metal oboe or wind violin 



. Sexy sound of tenor and alto doesn't necessarily mean cheesy. Anyway there a lot of cheesy players in every single instrument. Have a nice day everyone and this is really nice forum. The world really needs more quality music. Some people call it jazz, others call it classical and so on, but for there are only two types of music Good and the other thing...


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## Hfrank83

One last thing to make more sense about the harmonic thing. Forgetting the kind of music for a second just think of a violin, trumpet, clarinet, piano, even electric violin... in Pop, rock, jazz, classical, bossa nova, latin.. you name it. Wouldn't the average listener be able to recognize any of those no matter what they play?? I think so. The reason behind everything is that although they have different approaches depending on the style, they never dampen the harmonics(overtones) they only altered them at will to suit the style they want to play. Why does the saxophone has to get rid of it for classical?? There was a comment about classical sax sounding like a clarinet. Well not really I know they really don't try to imitate any other instrument but since they they dampen the overtones it's really possible to hear a "different intrument-like sound" since harmonics are the ONLY thing giving you the real instrument character. OH!! This is so deep to explain that unless you go and work as an acoustic physicist and you through tests and graphics there we will be always a gap in the explanation. Even the conical vs cylindrical shape of a wind instrument is a fool time career.


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## Hfrank83

Sorry I meant full time career. I hate auto correction


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## LarryShone

The saxophone does not require a poll. You play a sax you are automatically cooler than anyone around you!


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## philoctetes

If you answered YES and like modern









I enjoy this much more than the Adams sax CD.

Do sax haters also hate bassoons?


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## Larkenfield

I love the alto sax and have played it many years professionally. One can have a beautifully expressive sound with great variety and flexibility. In jazz, it's indispensable because there have been so many great players of such great individuality, such as Coleman Hawkins and Lester Young, Charlie Parker and Paul Desmond. Too many to name. In the classics, the players generally have a more refined but warm and beautiful sound. For some listeners, it takes some getting used to as a solo or instrument in an orchestra. But it has color and can be a bridge between the woodwinds and the brass as Adolph Sax had in mind from the beginning. The French probably write more for it than anybody, but it's really become an international instrument.


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## Steve1087

The alto and soprano saxophones are wonderful orchestral instruments and should be used more than they are. Tenor sax has less of a typically classical tone but good when used in the right context.
The difference between classical and jazz sax is just the player and their approach to the instrument.
Christian Forshaw is a saxophonist/composer and has a beautiful tone on the alto and soprano sax. I've seen him live a couple of times and also saw him on telly at The Proms playing the opening solo in the live premiere of the Glass/Shankar 'Passages'.


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## Merl

I cannot stand the sound of saxophones. Just like bagpipes, it's a huge "no" from me.


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## Larkenfield

The saxophone… one of the most expressive instruments ever created. No wind instrument is as capable of such great individuality, according to the player, as the saxophone. But I enjoy it more as a jazz rather than as a classical instrument.


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## fluteman

A resounding "yes" for me. First, the EMI box set called le saxophone Francais is a longtime favorite of mine and still in print. The title is misleading, as not all the music in it is French, though the Concerto da Camera by Jacques Ibert is, and is one of my favorites. I see the that box is still available. For something more contemporary, I think Michael Torke's saxophone concerto is one of his best works, and great fun as recorded by John Harle, who a great player. Saxophones appear more often in the symphonic literature than you might think, Vaughan Williams' 9th symphony is an excellent example.


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## crunchynanners

I absolutely love the saxophone, it can be played in the style of jazz, classical, pop, blues, just about anything. It's such a diverse instrument that is admirable.


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## TMHeimer

Sax is fine. I had to like them teaching all those HS jazz bands. I've tinkered around myself on alto here & there, mostly playing jazz/pop stuff. But, I'm one of those stuffy classical clarinet guys.


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## SONNET CLV

I just finished listening to Symphony No. 3 by Benjamin Lees. This work (composed in 1968 on a commission from the Detroit Symphony) features a prominent part for Tenor Saxophone, primarily in the Interludes that precede each of the three movements and in the Postlude. 

The Lees Symphony No. 3 is my favorite of the several works (including a couple of other symphonies) by Lees that I am familiar with. It was the sax that intrigued me from the start. Lees uses the instrument in a captivating way. According to the sleeve notes (on the vinyl release LS-752 from Louisville Orchestra First Edition Records) "The saxophone functions in a sense as the conscience of the work, the 'modern' instrument which Lees pits 'against the orchestra, a classical instrument."

To those of you who love saxophone, especially in the "classical music" context, I recommend this symphony. To those of you who don't like saxophone in the "classical music" context, I recommend this symphony, which just might change your perspective. In either case, I recommend this symphony. It's a good one, off the beaten path.


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## Enthalpy

The saxophone is the first instrument I chose by myself, after adults had decided for me that I would play the violin and then the piano. So yes, I like it.

But *the saxophone has strong limits* that makes it more difficult to play than apparently, and difficult to write.

It's always loud. A good musician achieves pp, but not détaché at the low notes. Don't pair it with an alto flute: it belongs with the brass, the piccolo, at least the clarinet or the grand piano.

Some saxophonists sound horrible. Some instruments are worse for that. Sax' instruments had a mellow tone, this held until the 1980s when Selmer introduced the Mark VII that squeaks in forte and was universally copied, alas. Only Yamaha offers presently one model with velvety forte sound, else you must look for historical instruments.

Some notes are brilliant and others are muffled, though the musician and the instrument can improve that. The intonation is far from perfect - again with variations, but far worse than the clarinet and the flute.

The range is very limited. Two octaves and a minor sixth are standard. Coming from the violin (4.5 or 5 octaves) that's extremely narrow. If you transpose for the saxophone, you bump all the time at the limits. The instrument has an altissimo range but it uses to sound plain horrible and any technical sequence is very difficult. Worse, the timbre changes much from the first to the second register, so a composer or arranger has <1.5 octave available. This improves if several instrument sizes complement an other: alto+tenor, etc. But a bassoon, a bass clarinet, a cello or a euphonium are far better in that aspect.

The saxophone uses much air. The soprano less so, the baritone more, but it can't play long phrases like the oboe or the clarinet.


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