# Mahler 5 - HVK/BPO - Views



## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Just a quick question. Well, more a request for opinions actually.

I would like to give HVK one last opportunity and I am considering Mahler's Fifth Symphony. I have had a mixed experience with HVK in the past and I have heard none of his Mahler.

More specifically, how does it compare with Tennstedt (LPO) and Bernstein (NYP)?

Any input would be appreciated?

_Cheers!_


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I don't like Karajan's Mahler. It seems antithetical to the spirit of the music, and in regards to the 5th in particular, his Adagietto is one of the slowest on record, which is not a good thing.

I prefer Tennstedt or Bernstein here.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I'm with Mahlerian, no like the Karajan! His Mahler is sanitized, devoid of the tensions that makes Mahler's Music exiting!

Of Your suggestions I prefer Bernstein (DG) to Tennstedt (EMI), but both are fin versions, my primary choice are John Barbirolli (EMI) and Rudolf Barshai (Brillliant, dirt cheap) is my runner up!

/ptr


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I have all three, including Bernstein in the old NYPO (on Sony; his later DG is with VPO), and found all of them interesting.

I can´t give a detailed analysis, but Tennstedt´s (from the big EMI box set, recorded in 1978) has a very broad perception and in the longest of them; there´s also a Tennstedt live from 1988. It works very well however (actually his 1978 Adagietto has about the same length as Karajan´s, around 11:50).

Bernstein´s NYPO is the most temperamental of them and IMO to be preferred to his later DG series; the Adagietto is 11:00.

Overall I would however probably prefer Bernstein´s or Tennstedt´s.

The best Karajan/Mahler IMO is _Rückert-Lieder_ and _Das Lied von der Erde_, but I like his symphony recordings too.

Karajan http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-5/dp/B000V6S88Y/ref=tmm_other_meta_binding_title_0
Tennstedt 1978: 13:44, 15:09, 18:05, 11:54, 16:17
Tennstedt 1988 http://www.discogs.com/Mahler-London-Philharmonic-Klaus-Tennstedt-Symphony-No5/release/2032116
Bernstein, NYPO /Sony http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-No-5/dp/B00138KKRQ/ref=tmm_other_meta_binding_title_0
Bernstein, VPO /DG http://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Sympho...title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1369773486&sr=1-2-catcorr


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't like Karajan's Mahler. It seems antithetical to the spirit of the music, and in regards to the 5th in particular, his Adagietto is one of the slowest on record, which is not a good thing.
> 
> I prefer Tennstedt or Bernstein here.


Thanks Mahlerian.

I suspected that Karajan may not be to my taste but I wanted to rule out any bias or that I simply picked up the wrong version of one of his recordings (of other composers) in the past.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

ptr said:


> I'm with Mahlerian, no like the Karajan! His Mahler is sanitized, devoid of the tensions that makes Mahler's Music exiting!
> 
> Of Your suggestions I prefer Bernstein (DG) to Tennstedt (EMI), but both are fin versions, my primary choice are John Barbirolli (EMI) and Rudolf Barshai (Brillliant, dirt cheap) is my runner up!
> 
> /ptr


Thanks ptr.

Although I cannot comment on his Mahler, sanitized is the best description I have heard applied to HVK. That may be the root of my issue with HVK.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

AClockworkOrange said:


> Thanks ptr.
> 
> Although I cannot comment on his Mahler, sanitized is the best description I have heard applied to HVK. That may be the root of my issue with HVK.


Meh, von Karajan was really good when he was in his wheelhouse (i.e., German late romantics). His tendency to apply the same approach to other stuff was...less than optimal.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

joen_cph said:


> I have all three, including Bernstein in the old NYPO (on Sony; his later DG is with VPO), and found all of them interesting.
> 
> I can´t give a detailed analysis, but Tennstedt´s (from the big EMI box set, recorded in 1978) has a very broad perception and in the longest of them; there´s also a Tennstedt live from 1988. It works very well however (actually his 1978 Adagietto has about the same length as Karajan´s, around 11:50).
> 
> ...


Thanks, Joen_cph.

I should just point out that I used Tennstedt (EMI box set) and Berstein (NYPO) Fifths as examples because I already have them.

As I have said before, my experience of Karajan has been very mixed so I think I will shelve this idea indefinitely.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I generally prefer the things Karajan recorded prior to his Hubris period in Berlin (ie. post 1963). I have the general feeling that when he recorded for EMI and Decca the the executives where much less star struck then the guy's at DG where; at DG, Karajan was the omnipotent force no one was to question and that is clearly heard in his recordings..

/ptr


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

His recordings of the Beethoven 1 and 2 I heard a while back were okay, and I don't mind his Bruckner, but his recording of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique is the absolute worst version I've heard, dull beyond belief.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I like his

- Sibelius/DG (haven´t heard the EMI), 
- the Mozart symphonies (EMI only, not DG, haven´t heard Decca), 
- the DG Beethoven symphonies 1963
- R. Strauss Works /DG
- Schoenberg/Berg/Webern orchestral Works /DG
- opera recordings, including Puccini & Wagner
- Bruckner 4 + 7 /EMI (but wouldn´t be without other recordings too)
- Mahler /DG
- Stravinsky Sacre /DG 1+2
- Bartok Concerto for Orchestra /DG
- Vivaldi 4 Seasons /DG 

and probably a few more I don´t immediately recall.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

HvK's Puccini operas are something. Yes, I know the Decca Boheme and Butterfly are slow but what ravishing beauty! The Decca Tosca is tremendous.

Also the Carmen with Price and recorded by Culshaw. Still a great version to own I think despite some atrocious French from Corelli. Oh and the earlier Trovatore and Butterfly with Callas. And the Falstaff with Gobbi and that wonderful Dresden Mastersingers.

HvK often produced his best when working with a producer who stood up to him - eg Legge and Culshaw. Sadly later he became knee deep in doormats. He still made some incredible recordings like the Bruckner 7&8 with the VPO.

As a postscript, I think the Mahler 5 is beautifully played. But then I don't like Mahler that much and having the rough edges smoothed off his strainings and heavings suites me.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Thanks ptr, Mahlerian, joen_cph & DavidA

I'll bear these suggestions and warnings in mind. Although shelved for the time being, knowing me as I do I will inevitably consider looking into him again. He's on two strikes at present. I've made a note of the suggestions and warnings so I have something to go on if/when I do give him one last chance.

He will get one last chance as I have done this a couple of times before (in classical and rock) and more often than not, the time gap and patience has been rewarded. Simon Rattle for example has had a similar effect on me, but I have come to like some of his works very much including his latest Sacre and the Four Movement Bruckner Ninth. Like Rattle, I doubt HVK will become a favourite but if like Rattle I hear a piece or two which clicks I'll be happy.

*edit - typo corrections


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Personally I find Karajan to have been one of the greatest conductors I know of. Like any other conductor, he had his strengths and weaknesses; there were composers that he was far more successful in interpreting than others. His earlier work especially was quite enthralling. Among the discs/sets I would not be without I would include:





...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Are these all the "best" (however we determine that) recordings available of each of these works? Of course not... but they are certainly among the finest and present a viable option for any of the works.

Over the years here I have seen a definite conflict of opinion when it comes to Karajan. Some love him. Some hate him. I would prefer this by far to a conductor/performer who just leaves me indifferent (Levine? Barenboim?).

Mahler is a composer IMO that no conductor has mastered. By this, I mean there is no cycle of Mahler's complete symphonies that really does the job for me... although Bernstein comes close. As such, I have different conductors... often several different conductors... for each symphony or song cycle.

I agree with ptr in that my favorite recording of the 5th is that by Barbirolli.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think the problem with Karajan is that for those of us who began listening to classical music in the 70s and 80s, he was billed as the "greatest of the greats". Whenever someone gets propped up like that, there's sure to be a backlash. A lot of people hate him for that. But if you actually listen to his work, you realize that he was a wonderful conductor with a very wide range. His EMI recordings are his best, although the 60s recordings for DGG are almost as good. Throughout that period he was as consistent in quality as any conductor.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't think Mahler's 5th brought out the best in HvK but it's certainly not BAD - in fact, there have been various reservations over the years with all of his Mahler, but I think his live recording of the 9th was actually VERY good.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

Thank you for the food for thought stlukesguldOhio. 

I've clearly got some thinking to do.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I like BPO/HvK's Mahler 9s, with preference for the first DG recording. Don't care for the rest.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bigshot said:


> I think the problem with Karajan is that for those of us who began listening to classical music in the 70s and 80s, he was billed as the "greatest of the greats". Whenever someone gets propped up like that, there's sure to be a backlash. A lot of people hate him for that. But if you actually listen to his work, you realize that he was a wonderful conductor with a very wide range. His EMI recordings are his best, although the 60s recordings for DGG are almost as good. Throughout that period he was as consistent in quality as any conductor.


I think he was certainly a victim of his own success and very often self publicity. He obviously believed he was the greatest conductor in the world! I think he was also a victim of the sheer number of recordings he made, some of which were naturally better than others. I think if he had only recorded rarely like Carlos Kleiber his recordings would be like gold dust. He was also a control freak and wanted everything his way, especially later on, which didn't help his artistry. And of course his sheer success was ended and hated, especially by many critics, most of whom enjoy doing down people who are better than them! 
HvK was one of the greatest conductors even if he wasn't good at everything.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

After much re-reading of this thread I went away and re-listened to his Bruckner 8th with the VPO. I also discovered an EMI set with the latter 4 Schubert Symphonies which I had picked up at the start of my Classical discovery and knew nothing about conductors other than that I loved Furtwangler's Beethoven 9.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the '70's Schubert recordings and the Bruckner 8th was *much* better than I remembered. I did some listening on Youtube and after a lot of thought I have just ordered the following by HVK:
- Schubert Symphonies 1-4 (EMI) - to complete his Schubert cycle. I must admit I am surprised How much I enjoyed these. I may still prefer Harnoncourt for a cycle or Furtwangler for the 9th but HVK has impressed me on the latter symphonies.
- The DG Bruckner set - As pictured in stlukesguildOhio's post. His VPO 8 plus the aforementioned posters recommendation (and a little YouTube nudge) convinced me to give it a try.
- The DG Mendelssohn set - My logic here is not so sound, simply that I love Mendelssohn's works and I had a credit note to use which covered the price of this set. I thought why not?. It is essentially free as money was already budgeted as an outgoing. I have only heard Von Dohnanyi's interpretations with the VPO on Decca and I love them a lot so I look forward to trying these. YouTube research sounded good.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

AClockworkOrange said:


> After much re-reading of this thread I went away and re-listened to his Bruckner 8th with the VPO.


That's the recording that sold me on Bruckner.


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