# Introducing to classic music



## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

Hello!

I'm a father of two boys: 10 and 5 years old. The older one plays piano since 5 and now it looks like the younger one also has a good ear for music and weare searching for a teacher for him too. But not that is the problem. The problem is that the older one is getting more and more involved in this piano palying. Untill now, his evolution was based soly on learning and perfecting some reflexes, some motor skils, eye to hand coordination... things like this. But i feel that now he needs more than repeating some finger movements, posture and reading the notes. I think is reaching a point where he needs to understand classical music, and for that he needs to know it. Since nor me or his mother have no classical culture ( we only ocasionaly lisen random pieces) , we would need some help to introduce ourself and our son in this world. And to be speciffic, i think it would be a great help for us if anybody can provide a list with composers and pieces that we should lissen. The cronology is important and also is important that the list is assembled by somebody who has knoledge, because simply lissening famous parts do not help ( try that for last year and is not working- sistematisation helps understanding and doing things in stages, step by step will help us to guide our son's acoustic environement.

So, if there is anybody who can help, or if there were simmilar topics, i would be gratefull.
Thank you for tacking time to read this!


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Beethovens piano sonatas
bachs well tempered clavier


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

Thank you jani! I will start with that.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Three questions:

1 What music is the ten year old currently playing?

2 What music does he like?

3


> I think is reaching a point where he needs to understand classical music, and for that he needs to know it.


Are you drawing a specific disctinction between knowing "classical music" (knowing the repertoire, which composers wrote what, which composers influenced which others) and knowing music (understanding the structure and grammar of music)? If so, which do you want to focus on (or is it both)?


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

Those two are classics for keyboard players, but i am sure that pianists on this foorum can help you more.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

Conservatory!!!


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

A classical radio station would be helpful. If you're lucky you have one in your area. If not there is satelite radio. One of the best classical stations in the U.S. is KBYU FM. It is the radio station of Brigham Young University. I mention this because you can stream them on the internet. One of the things I like about KBYU is that thery do not just play piece after piece with no intro. The anouncers will usually give the name, composer, performer and some bit of information about the piece. They serve a community that has fairly conservative musical tastes so you will hear many of the classical stabdards but they also play more "essoteric" works as well. It is a pretty good mix. You can listen on your computer. Go to http://www.classical89.org/ and click on "listen now".

You may think that, being owned by the Mormon church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) that you would get a pretyy steady diet of Mormon talk and doctrine. For the most part that is not true. Programing thart is specifically Mormon is limited and well announced so you can listen or not.

However you get it into your house, it is important that your childern see that you are listening and that you enjoy classical music and you are not doing it out of a sence of "duty".


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Here are some recommendations put together by some of our forum members:

http://www.talkclassical.com/16620-tc-top-200-recommended.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/18616-tc-top-50-recommended.html
http://www.talkclassical.com/13220-tc-top-100-most.html

Keep in mind that these are mostly advanced pieces and are not chronologically ordered.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

What is musicality? It is love for music.

"Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

I wouldn't start with piano music since it is generally difficult. Go for orchestral music more (don't neglect chamber works entirely) to get him into Classical music, and once he likes something then focus on that composer and period, and listen to lots of that. E.G. He likes Beethoven's fifth - go and get more Beethoven, the 3rd, 6th, 7th and 9th symphonies, the piano concerti, the sonatas etc. and also get Schubert as he is very similar. Then Mozart and Mendelssohn. This is just an example. It would be preferable if this would come from him of course.



hammerstaff said:


> And to be speciffic, i think it would be a great help for us if anybody can provide a list with composers and pieces that we should lissen. The cronology is important and also is important that the list is assembled by somebody who has knoledge, because simply lissening famous parts do not help ( try that for last year and is not working- sistematisation helps understanding and doing things in stages, step by step will help us to guide our son's acoustic environement.


There must be sympathy with the music. He must come to love it, because simply listening to it without liking it will not benefit him *at all*. I listen to Wagner and the only result is that I remember I hate the composer's music. However I am working on it. Sometimes I force myself to listen to more Wagner, and one day I hope it will click. So listening to more stuff is great and hopefully he will come to love it, and then he can pursue the music he loves. When he likes something, then all the work pays off.

However he ought to be aware of the basics, and this does mean the most famous pieces of music - however not just the famous bits. Listen to whole works - a whole symphony or concerto at once - not just a movement here and there. Even if he doesn't like stuff, he should at least be aware of famous works, so that at least he knows that he doesn't like them. A suggested list (which you ask for) is the following. This gives some of the most, and some less, famous works of most common practice periods.

Beethoven symphony 5
Mozart symphony 40
Beethoven symphony 7
Mendelssohn Hebrides overture
Mozart Requiem
Bach orchestral suite 3
Handel Messiah (this being very long, I wouldn't listen to it all in one go - or if so then in the background)
Bach harpsichord concerto 1
Chopin op. 10 etudes
Chopin piano concerto 1
Tchaikovsky 1812 overture
Dvorak New World symphony
Schubert symphony 5
Tchaikovsky symphony 5
Haydn symphony 94
Haydn symphony 104
Rachmaninov piano concerto 2
Mozart symphony 41
Haydn symphony 44
Beethoven piano concertos 1,3,4,5
Allegri's Miserere
Pachalbel's Canon
and the list could go on. If he likes something then focus on that composer and period, but keep going at other ones too so that he can have a broad musicality.

There will always be plenty of music he won't like. I doubt anyone exists who likes every composer from every period.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Why is this list limited to only music pre-1900 (and post-1600)? I'm honestly disappointed Ramako.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Why is this list limited to only music pre-1900 (and post-1600)? I'm honestly disappointed Ramako.


Given the large number of 'popularity of twentieth century' and variant threads I should have thought the answer self-evident. Perhaps Stravinsky's Rite of Spring should be on there, but anyway...

Given the paucity of pre-1600 piano music, the other end of my spectrum is doubly justified


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I would start with melodic and catchier and most famous classical tunes. It's the best way for someone that young to start to appreciate classical music. 
Stuff like Turkish March from Mozart. 
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, Fur Elise, Pathetique Sonata, 5th and 9th symphony. 
Mozarts Piano Concerto 21 (Elvira Madigan), Symphony 40, Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.
Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker, Swan Lake.
George Gershwin's Rhapsoy in Blue.
Grieg's Peer Gynt Suites and Piano Concertos. 
Bach's Air.

Such melodic stuff. No need to torture young kid in the begining with some heavy stuff. When I was young kid I remember being in love at the begining of the movie 'Breakfast at Tiffany' with melody 'Moon River'.
Good melody is the key for beginner.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

edit: never mind, misunderstood the request.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Vivaldi's Four Seasons, actually, everything by Vivaldi 
Mozart's Horn concertos, violin sonatas, symphonies 
Advertising everything by Wieniawski at the moment, so his Chanson Polonaise and Polonaise in D major 
Tchaikovsky's ballet music 
And if I must add some modern classical music then: Ligeti's 6 Bagatelles for wind Quintet


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Yes, definitely *Ligeti!* His études are the pinnacle of piano music in the modern era:


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

Thank you all for imputs! Already helping me a lot.
I will try to answer everibody.
Jeremy Marchant: he was a young with dificuties of concentration and, at age 5, preparing for school, i decided that he needs an activity who can chanalise his energy and teach him discipline and patience. Beaside swimming, learning to play piano was the salutary solution. Now the pool is closed since 2010 and all his energy is focus on piano. He like it very much. For half a year he was in an art school at piano class, but , beaside the fact that his math, languages, science knoledge droped significantly, the piano skils were also not as good as before, when he went to a piano teacher in private lessons. Now he is back to his original school and with his teacher in private, and the progress is obvious even for me.
What he plays? In the past years he played about 5 pieces /year. When he changed the pieces, the old ones were completly forgoten, and new ones were learn. Currently he plays a sonate , he claims to be written by Hayden, but i will verify later, another sonate, but he has no ideea of the composer, some Bach piece and Hachaturian. I will verify all later when we will go to practice. And 2 Cerny.
What he likes? The parts where the rithm is good and good musicality. He like a lots of modern music, but for classic... We lissened together some parts with lots of revue on youtube and he loved tchaicovsky, beethoven 5 symphony, he loves sonats and sonatins. But we lack structure and consistency.
For question nr 3 repertoire is my imediate concern. We read and teach him from manuals of musical theory for his age. It seems that he understand fast and those things are not forgoten. My problem is the fact that we are not a musicians family and he has not the oportunity to grow in that musical environement which, for the people with musical inclinations like him, provide an "instinctual knoledge" of the music. We need to try to create that environement. For theory we will hire services of a teacher. But theory alone is not enough, playing piano 2 times a week with the other teacher and learning a few pieces every year also is insuficient. He will end up a monkey who can moove the fingers over a keyboard and a parrot who can repeat some fancy phrases about musical theory.

Philip - due to lack of proper teachers for the rest of the disciplines, we decided that an art school is not a viable option. Also, during the time he was attending that school, his piano skils degraded signifficantly. Maybe latter , when he will have an ideea about the effort and dedication required by this field, he will decide that his path is conservatory. Untill than, my job is to offer him the possibility to explore that world, but to be sure that the rest of the skils are developed in balance.

Drpreatorus: we have a radio here. The problem with radio is that same lack of structure. First hour, lieds. He is bored to death. Second one wagner.... he is already asleep. At noon, jazz for half hour: he is completly confused. In the evening first part of some simphony, than ouverture of some opera.... You get the ideea. For me, lissenig of that radio in the car is good. I know what cassicism was, preclassic, roccoco, baroc, etc. I know the concepts, historical references, but i do not kow the music. For me is good because i have other points of refferences. He has none.
Pjang 23, nikola and ramako: thank you!

Hope that now i manage to draw a better picture and i define me needs better.


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

Forgot!
We are from romania. My written english is ... like it is. Hope you will forgive me on that.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

hammerstaff said:


> Forgot!
> We are from romania. My written english is ... like it is. Hope you will forgive me on that.


Your English isn't bad at all. 

Romanian, eh? *Ligeti's* Concert Romanesc you and your son might enjoy very much.


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

Composerofavantgarde, i understand your point, but this is my son about 2 years ago
http://m.youtube.com/index?client=m...4f6#/watch?v=CKniYT7tu9Q&default_tab=comments
He got better an won some cometitions with that, but still is so far away...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

hammerstaff said:


> Composerofavantgarde, i understand your point, but this is my son about 2 years ago
> http://m.youtube.com/index?client=m...4f6#/watch?v=CKniYT7tu9Q&default_tab=comments
> He got better an won some cometitions with that, but still is so far away...


In the meantime, *Ligeti's* Musica Ricercata aren't hard at all.


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

We will start this evening. Will have a taste of everiting and record the impresions.


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## hocket (Feb 21, 2010)

Perhaps a historical framework would be useful?

It's always difficult answering this kind of question as its difficult to judge someone's knowledge. Presuming we're really dealing with beginners I'd suggest starting with selections from the late baroque (early 18th century -JS Bach, Handel, Vivaldi), the Classical period (late 18th C-Haydn, Mozart), Early Romantic (Early 19th C -Beethoven, Schubert), Mid Romantic (mid 19th C -Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Wagner), Late Romantic (late 19th C -R Strauss, Mahler, Tchaikovsky), and Modernist (early-mid 20th C -Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Prokofiev).

That way you get a framework for understanding how things developed and get a sense of how everything fits together. If this seems like a good idea then I'm sure the membership here can easily recommend individual pieces for the composers for you to listen to. Once you've got that grounding you can choose to explore those periods in more depth, look further backwards or forwards in history and explore things that are not so much a part of the core repertoire -wherever your interest/needs take you.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

You should check out this piece, i think that your kid would like it and its not so hard either.
Also remember that both Mozart&Beethoven played Bach!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm going to give a recommendation I previously withdrew. Bartók's _For Children_ is a book of 85 short piano pieces designed for children to play. They are based on Hungarian and Slavic folk tunes, and I'm sure you and your boys can have a lot of fun with them.

Volumes 1 and 2





Volumes 3 and 4





Best of all, the score is public domain and freely available to view and print here: http://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/7/76/IMSLP00857-Bartok_-_For_Children_1-43.pdf ... It may take a while to load the first time, but leave it for a minute or so and it should be fully loaded. The title text is in Russian, but all tempo markings are in the standard Italian. Have fun!


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

hocket thank you. crudblud, we will take a look and see what will be his interest.
about what he plays, Czerny opus 849 nr 29 and 39, a Cimarosa's sonate no 9, some variations of Kuhlan (from 1 to 5 i guess), Hachaturian study nr 5, Haydn sonate in C major. those are all the notes i find.


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

some video from this summer, not all interesting but you will have an ideea


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## tommaso (Sep 11, 2012)

nikola said:


> I would start with melodic and catchier and most famous classical tunes. It's the best way for someone that young to start to appreciate classical music.
> Stuff like Turkish March from Mozart.
> Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, Fur Elise, ... Bach's Air.
> 
> ...


I can only second that.

The well temparatured piano (except the C-Major prelude from Book I) and most of Beethoven´s sonatas are much too heavy for children.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

tommaso said:


> I can only second that.
> 
> The well temparatured piano (except the C-Major prelude from Book I) and most of Beethoven´s sonatas are much too heavy for children.


That's generalising and isn't true. I know many people who play those preludes and fugues at age 12.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

I think the Beethoven sonatas are more heavy than the WTC.



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That's generalising and isn't true. I know many people who play those preludes and fugues at age 12.


We know Beethoven became famous doing this. But even he was only playing the very early Beethoven sonatas at that age.


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

For 2 days we listened Bach. Undiscriminately. I was suprised to see that, despite the initial feeling of indigest material, especialy when it comes for religious pieces who, to me seemed identical, overall impresion was very good. We will continue with Bach but we will take notes of what we like and what we don't. And in week end we will continue reading about.
Btw, when he was in art school, the main piece was Ecosaise. He never mastered all the nuances, and i was a bit pissed off, but his old teacher explained to me that is not such an easy play. I still think that the atmosphere there was too lax: too much playing wjthout proper rehersing.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

the piano teacher is the best to ask


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

hammerstaff said:


> ....I still think that the atmosphere there was too lax: too much playing wjthout proper rehersing.


I favor the more playing approach in a fun atmosphere, at any age...but particularly with youngsters. Inject and remind with basics regularly, being careful not to stunt enthusiasm, individualism, creativity. Nurturing passion, which hopefully results in exceptional talent. Robots don't go too far.


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

Long time passed and we were not here... We took your advices, we lissened more and more music. We are in a way better position now towards classical music than we were in the fall, and we thank you for your help. Yesterday he was in a contest. Here are the video of his performance. He got 98 points (out of 100). For me is too much. Please rate his performances and, if possible, let me know the pluses and the minuses:


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## hammerstaff (Sep 9, 2012)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4972852084755&set=vb.1402878250&type=2&theater
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4971223364038&set=vb.1402878250&type=2&theater


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Some more great pieces I would recommend 

Bach: Goldberg variations, well tempered clavier, Brandenburg concertos 
Beethoven: piano concertos, violin concerto, symphonies, piano sonatas
Brahms: possibly the piano concertos although they are quite lengthy, symphonies
Chopin: nocturne, piano concertos, etudes
Liszt: etudes
Mendelssohn: symphonies, piano concertos, violin concerto
Schumann: piano concerto, fantaisie op. 17, kreisleriana, fantaisie op. 12, Kinderszenen, waldszenen, novelettes, violin concerto
Schubert: wanderer fantasy, symphonies

I am not recommending these as pieces he should play but they are wonderful pieces he should listen to. Also, introduce him to music for other instruments than just piano. 

Hope this helps


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