# another dead guy: Kim Jong-Il



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Yes, the Dear Leader passed last night, and now his son takes over in North Korea. I will spend the next two weeks deep underground....

Rather than an obit, let us honor his life by appreciating his endless curiosity:

http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Let's wait for Robert Newman to come up with conspiracy theories about the death ...


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Good riddance. What a comically horrible person.

So is his fat son the next dear leader?


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> So is his fat son the next dear leader?


It appears so.

He may be weak though, and there seems to be a few generals and an aunt who might try to flex their own muscles as well.

Anybody want to visit me in Seoul? I plan to be on the 2nd train into Pyongyang when it all falls down....


----------



## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

science said:


> let us honor his life by appreciating his endless curiosity:


Judging by his outerwear, he could have looked at all these items on the same day.

Hopefully, the transition(s) will be peaceful and bring better days to the N. Korean people. I will not even pretend to know what their life is like.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Fantastic. Now my nuclear paranoia is not looking so paranoid.


----------



## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

If you consider how devastated people over there are over the dead of this fruitcake it provides one of the answers of why there is no reason for optimism about the human race. People are sheep who are very easy to manipulate. All that is needed is some evil leader and a bit of flag waving, blaming the guy on the other side of the river for your problems or the mention of God and people are willing to believe and do absolutely everything.


----------



## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

Don't be surprised if it turns out he faked his death so he can be resurrected.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

> Let's wait for Robert Newman to come up with conspiracy theories about the death ...





Rasa said:


> Don't be surprised if it turns out he faked his death so he can be resurrected.


We didn't have to wait. No offense to Rasa.


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2011)

I think this chart tells us quite a bit about the reign of Kim Jong Il. Not that North Korea's economy has been anything to brag about for the past 40 years, but Kim managed to take a bad thing and make it worse - he took over in 1994. Nicholas Eberstadt described North Korea as "the world's first and only industrialized economy to lose the capacity to feed itself."


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

DrMike said:


> I think this chart tells us quite a bit about the reign of Kim Jong Il. Not that North Korea's economy has been anything to brag about for the past 40 years, but Kim managed to take a bad thing and make it worse - he took over in 1994. Nicholas Eberstadt described North Korea as "the world's first and only industrialized economy to lose the capacity to feed itself."


I saw this fascinating image for the first time today:










I was also informed today that, in his last moments, the dear leader was Kim Jong-Very-Il.


----------



## Fsharpmajor (Dec 14, 2008)

In the event of Korean unification, the Korean Demilitarized Zone should be made into a permanent nature reserve. For the most part, no humans have ventured there for decades, so it's an unspoiled temperate wildlife habitat--something like the areas around Pripyat and Chernobyl, in the Ukraine, but without (at least so far) the radiation hazard.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't know what I found more repulsive when I viewed the 'official' footage from Pyongyang - the crocodile tears of the hired sycophants or the crocodile tears of the majority of the city's populace who were probably too frightened to react any differently - I notice they all seemed to be dressed well and looking healthy which is in stark contrast to the 'unofficial' footage that has seeped in from the countryside. I gather the official line is that Kimbles died from 'overwork' - which may be a bit like saying that Elvis died from eating too many fresh vegetables.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

elgars ghost said:


> I don't know what I found more repulsive when I viewed the 'official' footage from Pyongyang - the crocodile tears of the hired sycophants or the crocodile tears of the majority of the city's populace who were probably too frightened to react any differently - I notice they all seemed to be dressed well and looking healthy which is in stark contrast to the 'unofficial' footage that has seeped in from the countryside. I gather the official line is that Kimbles died from 'overwork' - which may be a bit like saying that Elvis died from eating too many fresh vegetables.


Were they all crocodile tears? I thought some of it was the irrational but convincing sadness of an indoctrinated populace.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Compared to a lot of you bright young things, I'm so ancient I can remember when KJI's dad died in the mid-1990's. That was Kim Il-sung. I remember in the press coverage of his father's death, nobody said that this might lead to some positive change in North Korea. Not one journalist had that kind of hope, or even an inkling of it, that I can remember. 

I haven't read the press for his son's death now, but I assume similarly people are not holding their breath for some regime change or at least a move away from Stalinism to happen. This is very sad, because over the decades, some of the other divided countries, like the Irelands, the Yemens, the Germanies, have dealt with either partially or fully with their artificial physical divisions, the political/economic implications, etc. Even other "Communist" regimes like China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc. have initiated reforms on some levels, there has been a good deal of change there (although it's not perfect), but with North Korea my outlook, and probably in general as well, it's quite gloomy. 

They are like the forgotten people, the forgotten country, it's like Alice in Wonderland through the looking glass or something, it's a relic, another parallel universe. But the sadness is that the people are suffering & we don't know half of what's going on over there, etc...


----------



## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

If ever I could have no problem with the international community invading a country to bring a more open society... but these saps probably have no reference cadre to place this concept so it would probably be a lost effort.


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I chuckled a little this afternoon because ITV News played part of the Team America parody in their news coverage.


----------



## jalex (Aug 21, 2011)

I once read an article about the official titles Mr Kim had as Leader of the DPR, quite liberally translated, and it was one of the funniest things I've ever read. There's a more prosaic list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kim_Jong-il's_titles; highlights include '*Dear Leader, who is a perfect incarnation of the appearance that a leader should have*', '*Great Man, Who Descended From Heaven*', '*Guiding Star of the 21st Century*' and '*Highest Incarnation of the Revolutionary Comradely Love*'.

It's a testimony to the success of his and his father's mass brainwashing that this sort of stuff was taken seriously.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Well, to be fair to the North Koreans, we have no idea what is said in the living rooms of Pyeongyang. For instance, they have a huge problem with bootleg DVDs of South Korean television - so at least many thousands and maybe even millions of people have video evidence of the prosperity of the South. In all probability, fear motivates the average North Korean's loyalty more than love. 

Take the little military skirmish last spring. The North planned to do this thing; they surely had specially selected troops in place. The South had no idea, a random group of troops were there. So the Northern troops shot a few rockets, the Southern troops held their positions and shot back, and the Northern troops fled. Those guys didn't plan to die for their country. Not a good showing for the North. 

If a few cracks appear in that regime, look for it to crumble really, really fast.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

jalex said:


> I once read an article about the official titles Mr Kim had as Leader of the DPR, quite liberally translated, and it was one of the funniest things I've ever read. There's a more prosaic list here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kim_Jong-il's_titles; highlights include '*Dear Leader, who is a perfect incarnation of the appearance that a leader should have*', '*Great Man, Who Descended From Heaven*', '*Guiding Star of the 21st Century*' and '*Highest Incarnation of the Revolutionary Comradely Love*'.
> 
> It's a testimony to the success of his and his father's mass brainwashing that this sort of stuff was taken seriously.


That's nothing, look at former Zairean dictator COlonel Joseph Mobutu's formal title, what a mouthful! (quote below from Wikipedia article on Mobutu) -



> ...In 1972, Mobutu renamed himself Mobutu Sese Seko Nkuku Ngbendu Wa Za Banga ("*The all-powerful warrior who, because of his endurance and inflexible will to win, goes from conquest to conquest, leaving fire in his wake." *Mobutu Sese Seko for short...


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

The whole edifice will come crashing down some day. Back around 1982 many people probably thought that the Soviet Union's sphere of influence would still exist indefinitely in Central and Eastern Europe despite the courageous efforts of organisations such as Solidarnosc and individual dissidents like Andrei Sakharov and Roland Jahn. Perhaps it'll need similar courage from individuals living in North Korea itself more than it'll take mass indignation from those countries that say North Korea must change. I'm not sure how much pressure their major allies Russia and China are expected to or would want to put on Pyongyang - maybe they wish to keep the status quo to a degree for fear of unification which would bring the whole nation closer to the USA and Japan?


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2011)

science said:


> Well, to be fair to the North Koreans, we have no idea what is said in the living rooms of Pyeongyang. For instance, they have a huge problem with bootleg DVDs of South Korean television - so at least many thousands and maybe even millions of people have video evidence of the prosperity of the South. In all probability, fear motivates the average North Korean's loyalty more than love.
> 
> Take the little military skirmish last spring. The North planned to do this thing; they surely had specially selected troops in place. The South had no idea, a random group of troops were there. So the Northern troops shot a few rockets, the Southern troops held their positions and shot back, and the Northern troops fled. Those guys didn't plan to die for their country. Not a good showing for the North.
> 
> If a few cracks appear in that regime, look for it to crumble really, really fast.


The time to let it crumble would have been back during the Clinton administration, BEFORE they had nuclear capabilities, when they had no food, and no nuclear reactors. Instead, we gave them food and nuclear reactors, propping them up for longer, with the promise from them that they would abandon their plans to obtain nuclear weapons. We all know how well that worked out - thank you Jimmy Carter.

Now, being led by maniacal leaders who really could care less how many of their citizens die, they have the trump card of nuclear weapons. If they feel themselves crumbling, what is to stop them from taking out as many people with them as possible?


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> The whole edifice will come crashing down some day. Back around 1982 many people probably thought that the Soviet Union's sphere of influence would still exist indefinitely in Central and Eastern Europe despite the courageous efforts of organisations such as Solidarnosc and individual dissidents like Andrei Sakharov and Roland Jahn. Perhaps it'll need similar courage from individuals living in North Korea itself more than it'll take mass indignation from those countries that say North Korea must change. I'm not sure how much pressure their major allies Russia and China are expected to or would want to put on Pyongyang - maybe they wish to keep the status quo to a degree for fear of unification which would bring the whole nation closer to the USA and Japan?


Russia and China will continue to prop up countries like Iran and North Korea because they keep us occupied. As long as we have to deal with these kinds of threats, they know they can act with a certain amount of impunity.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

DrMike said:


> The time to let it crumble would have been back during the Clinton administration, BEFORE they had nuclear capabilities, when they had no food, and no nuclear reactors. Instead, we gave them food and nuclear reactors, propping them up for longer, with the promise from them that they would abandon their plans to obtain nuclear weapons. We all know how well that worked out - thank you Jimmy Carter.
> 
> Now, being led by maniacal leaders who really could care less how many of their citizens die, they have the trump card of nuclear weapons. If they feel themselves crumbling, what is to stop them from taking out as many people with them as possible?


What stopped the Soviets?

The state crumbling is not the same thing as everybody dying.


----------



## Guest (Dec 20, 2011)

science said:


> What stopped the Soviets?
> 
> The state crumbling is not the same thing as everybody dying.


What stopped the Soviets is that, even at the worst of times, they still had an inherent will to live. They went through some truly horendous days under Stalin, but at least the leaders following Stalin recognized that it couldn't continue like that. True, they were still a long way off from Gorbachev, but they weren't quite as bloodthirsty as Stalin.

No such case exists in North Korea. They have already shown a disregard for the lives of their citizens. They are ruled by people who literally appear to be insane. Can't you imagine that they understand that, were they to see that they were truly going to lose their godlike power, they would suffer some fate similar to a Qaddafi, or Saddam Hussein? What would prevent them, or even convince them not to, from taking the rest of their people down with them?


----------



## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

A great loss for the golf sport. He was the greatest golf player in the world! ( I heard today that the regime indoctrinated its poor inhabitants with that! )


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Russian basso Grigory Soloviov visited Pyongyang in 2005. Nothing new in the photos or this report but I wonder if he sang _Ecco il mondo_ "Here the world - empty & round" at the recital.


----------



## Oskaar (Mar 17, 2011)

oskaar said:


> A great loss for the golf sport. He was the greatest golf player in the world! ( I heard today that the regime indoctrinated its poor inhabitants with that! )


I am sorry for joking... The depressive regime, and all the suffering of its people is nothing to joke about....


----------



## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

oskaar said:


> I am sorry for joking... The depressive regime, and all the suffering of its people is nothing to joke about....


The only difference between tragedy and humour is time.


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

He also didn't defecate, apparently. I think I know how he died.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

DrMike said:


> What stopped the Soviets is that, even at the worst of times, they still had an inherent will to live. They went through some truly horendous days under Stalin, but at least the leaders following Stalin recognized that it couldn't continue like that. True, they were still a long way off from Gorbachev, but they weren't quite as bloodthirsty as Stalin.
> 
> No such case exists in North Korea. They have already shown a disregard for the lives of their citizens. They are ruled by people who literally appear to be insane. Can't you imagine that they understand that, were they to see that they were truly going to lose their godlike power, they would suffer some fate similar to a Qaddafi, or Saddam Hussein? What would prevent them, or even convince them not to, from taking the rest of their people down with them?


No, they've shown that they have the will to live. The generals don't want to be nuked any more than the average people.

The "people who are against us are insane, irrational animals" thing does not apply in at least this one case.


----------



## TrazomGangflow (Sep 9, 2011)

Like father like son? We shall find out.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Or like grandfather like son like grandson, in the case of this political dynasty. I thought communists were against a kind of aristocratic hereditary rule by title, etc. Apparently in theory yes, but in practice not...


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I've heard that North Koreans sometimes describe their government as a monarchy, and that many of the structures of their government were taken over from the Joseon Dynasty (which ruled Korea prior to Japanese colonization).


----------



## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

Fsharpmajor said:


> In the event of Korean unification, the Korean Demilitarized Zone should be made into a permanent nature reserve. For the most part, no humans have ventured there for decades, so it's an unspoiled temperate wildlife habitat--something like the areas around Pripyat and Chernobyl, in the Ukraine, but without (at least so far) the radiation hazard.


DMZ is "littered" with land mines. Some of them float down the river in flood season and few unlucky folks lose their leg or die. Until they clear the mines humans wouldn't want to go in there.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> I've heard that North Koreans sometimes describe their government as a monarchy, and that many of the structures of their government were taken over from the Joseon Dynasty (which ruled Korea prior to Japanese colonization).


& in today's paper here, there is an article on Kim's son most likely being a puppet of Kim's sister and brother (eg. his aunt and uncle - both in control of various government departments/ministries). Even if he wanted change, which is itself unlikely, he will be held in firm control by the older generation/s.

So I see where you're coming from with what you said above. Maybe better to retain a "real" monarchy like say the Japanese, rather than like the NOrth Koreans who no longer have a monarch in name, but it looks like they've still got a hereditary monarchy by nature/in reality, etc...


----------



## Cataphracture (Dec 21, 2011)

jhar26 said:


> If you consider how devastated people over there are over the dead of this fruitcake it provides one of the answers of why there is no reason for optimism about the human race. People are sheep who are very easy to manipulate. All that is needed is some evil leader and a bit of flag waving, blaming the guy on the other side of the river for your problems or the mention of God and people are willing to believe and do absolutely everything.


There is plenty of optimism for the human race jhar26! The people devastated by this man's death are the same one's who've spent an entire lifetime being brainwashed over how amazing he is. Poor psychologically conditioned people they are, they've bounced themselves right out of a legitimate sample size of human beings for any real assessment of the race in general.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I think it's sad and ironic that we are here discussing the life of North Koreans but the vast majority of the people of that nation cannot be members of this forum. They have no access to the internet, only those high in the government and circles of power, eg. their elites, would have internet...


----------



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

it's the world most puzzling to me, why n.korean leader did not want to follow what done by china. they have millions of double hard working human resources overthere, if they allow to do something what china do, they will arise.


----------



## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

As I learned from watching a S.Korean TV show called "100 minutes", one expert says 50-60% of N.Koreans watch S.Korean TV shows smuggled from China. So they do see what it's like in developed world and what's been going on in middle east this year.


----------



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> it's the world most puzzling to me, why n.korean leader did not want to follow what done by china. they have millions of double hard working human resources overthere, if they allow to do something what china do, they will arise.


They have tried a bit. There is at least one "industrial complex."

The problem is that China's government is a lot more functional than North Korea's. We often hear how government does nothing good and that corporations need to be left alone to function efficiently and we'll all be better off, but the truth is that industrial development requires at least a certain level of cooperation from the government, and that requires a functional government.


----------

