# SS 20.06.15 - Brian #1 "The Gothic"



## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

A continuation of the Saturday Symphonies Tradition:

Welcome to another weekend of symphonic listening! 
*
*For your listening pleasure this weekend:

*Havergal Brian (1876 - 1972)*

Symphony #1 in D minor "The Gothic"

1. Part I: Allegro assai - attacca
2. Part I: Lento espressivo e solenne - attacca
3. Part I: Vivace - attacca
4. Part II: Te Deum laudamus. Allegro moderato
5. Part II: Judex crederis esse venturus. Adagio solenne e religioso
6. Part II: Te ergo quaesumus. Moderato e molto sostenuto

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Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

A big one this weekend. I remember first hearing this work about 15 years ago. It turned me into a Havergal Brian fan instantly. Looking forward to hearing it again since it's been probably 2 years since I last heard it. I'll be listening too:

View attachment 71274


Ondrej Lenard/Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra/Slovak Radio Symphony Orchestra
Slovak Opera Chorus/Sloval Philharmonic Choir


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## Proms Fanatic (Nov 23, 2014)

I'll be listening to the Proms recording I made in 2011.

Full credits

Susan Gritton soprano
Christine Rice mezzo-soprano
Peter Auty tenor
Alastair Miles bass

BBC Concert Orchestra 
BBC National Orchestra of Wales 
Martyn Brabbins Conductor

Does anybody know of any good articles or other descriptions of the work that they would recommend I check out before I listen to it?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

I remember hearing Lenard when it first came out in the early 1990's feeling that it was lacking somewhat in interpretation in that typical early Marco Polo/Naxos way. Brabbins and the re-release of the seminal 1960's Boult concert proved my suspicion slightly correct (even if it is more or less an impossibility to amass the kind of forces needed to stage a work like this, and then You have to find a hall big enough to fit these forces and an audience of the same size!)

I will probably go for...










Shirley Minty (Alto), Honor Sheppard (Soprano), Ronald Dowd (Tenor),
Roger Stalman (Bass); Choirs & BBC Symphony Orchestra u. Sir Adrian Boult (Testament)

*Rob Barnett's review from MusicWeb*



> An historical document and a spiritual reflection faithful to contemplation, to awe and to the blast of conflict and turmoil.
> 
> When the young Robert Simpson joined the BBC Third Programme staff in 1954 the die was cast for an extraordinary initiative: the broadcast of all 32 symphonies by Havergal Brian. Amid this company the Gothic is emblematic but it was by no means the first to in the queue. Its huge forces and long duration militated against early programming. Instead the first in the line was a February 1954 relay of the 22 minute Eighth by the BBCSO and Boult.
> 
> ...


/ptr


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## timh (Nov 14, 2014)

Does anybody know of any good articles or other descriptions of the work that they would recommend I check out before I listen to it?

Music and meaning - Malcolm MacDonald
http://www.havergalbrian.org/sym1_6.htm


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

An excellent choice!

There was a nice article in the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/music/2011/jul/13/gothic-symphony-havergal-brian-proms and there is a review of the excelent Hyperion disc at http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2011/Nov11/Brian_Gothic_CDA679712.htm

There was a really good film on Sky Arts some time ago about the challenges of putting on the Brisbane performance - "The Curse of the Gothic Symphony" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2084960/ which _might_ be available on you-tube where you live (not the UK, apparently)

Enjoy it!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I own a Lyrita disc of some Brian works, but not the Gothic. Hopefully Spotify will come to the rescue.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Slovak Radio Symphony and Philharmonic Orchestras conducted by Ondrej Lenard


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I'll go with the same Marco Polo recorded as realdealblues. No guarantees I'll make it all the way through.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

Sorry. This is a first for me and Saturday Symphony. I managed to make it through the first half hour of this work then had to shut it off. I'll be polite and say it wasn't my cup of tea. I simply couldn't stand to listen to any more of it. I'll wait until next week's Saturday Symphony to continue participating.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

I have been looking forward to this edition of Saturday Symphonies since it started. The Gothic is one of my favourite symphonies. Will be listening to the Lenard recording tomorrow.

Plenty of info on this page, including a full instrumentation list, and articles.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

D Smith said:


> Sorry. This is a first for me and Saturday Symphony. I managed to make it through the first half hour of this work then had to shut it off. I'll be polite and say it wasn't my cup of tea. I simply couldn't stand to listen to any more of it. I'll wait until next week's Saturday Symphony to continue participating.


Wow, sorry you felt that way. I don't like much modern classical music but Brian is one of the few whom I really like.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

If I may paraphrase realdealblues:



> I remember first hearing this work... It turned me into a Havergal Brian fan instantly.













​
I don't listen to this piece often but I always enjoy it when I do. It introduced me to the Composer and made me a fan on the spot.

I can however see (or hear) why it may be a somewhat Marmite piece but that can be said of a number of pieces and/or composers.

I cannot decide between the Brabbins or the Boult.

Hmm, I think, after staring into my monitor for a few moments, I'll go with Brabbins. My logic being simply that I listened to the Boult recording last time I listened to this piece.


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

ptr said:


> I remember hearing Lenard when it first came out in the early 1990's feeling that it was lacking somewhat in interpretation in that typical early Marco Polo/Naxos way. Brabbins and the re-release of the seminal 1960's Boult concert proved my suspicion slightly correct (even if it is more or less an impossibility to amass the kind of forces needed to stage a work like this, and then You have to find a hall big enough to fit these forces and an audience of the same size!)
> 
> I will probably go for...
> 
> ...


I remember purchasing the Aries recording. The Harvard Coop had an end cap with about a dozen copies. They were playing the recording on the store record player and before the record ended, all the copies they stocked were sold.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Proms Fanatic said:


> I'll be listening to the Proms recording I made in 2011.
> 
> Full credits
> 
> ...


The same for me (thanks PF!).

Not a favorite work by any means, but I'll give it another listen.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Seriously for me one of the least favorite things I ever heard in my life. I never finished it during two attempts.

I just may buy it for novelty's sake at least.


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## Mika (Jul 24, 2009)

Will listen BBC Proms recording:


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

My oh my - I never thought I would see any mention of Havergal Brian's "Gothic" in this forum - I was going to start a thread about the "Gothic" and then...realdealblues beat me to it...Drats...Kudos to the originator of this thread!!!:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm currently listening to the 2010 Queensland performance conducted by John Curro.
I remember the following year the BBC Proms First Night concert was Brian's "Gothic" (BBCNoW / BBCCO, Brabyns) which, to their eternal disgrace, the BBC failed to televise. What a wasted opportunity! I was furious then and still cross when I think about it now.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I listened on Spotify through my 2 channel system ..it is episodic and rambling, but I was very impressed. I will need a few more listens to get the scope but it sounds like It is worth the effort.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

realdealblues said:


> Wow, sorry you felt that way. I don't like much modern classical music but Brian is one of the few whom I really like.


Modern? It is about 100 years old...


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## Mika (Jul 24, 2009)

Everything is bigger with this symphony, even the applause took more than 8 minutes . I am referring to Proms recording.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Ilarion said:


> My oh my - I never thought I would see any mention of Havergal Brian's "Gothic" in this forum - I was going to start a thread about the "Gothic" and then...realdealblues beat me to it...Drats...Kudos to the originator of this thread!!!:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


This is part of a series, and the OP is pulling the works from the TC best symphonies list. Kudos to him for managing this, but he isn't selecting the works.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Some of the more unusual instruments stem from an idea given to Brian by Proms founder Sir Henry Wood, of writing a piece for all the woodwind families, hence the inclusion of oboe d'amore (the first sound you hear at the start of the sixth movement), basset horns, contrabass clarinet, etc.

As this is Brian's only appearance on Saturday Symphonies, it's worth acknowledging his remarkably prolific symphonic career. He started work on the Gothic aged 43, and it took him 8 years to complete it. But then the symphonic floodgates were opened. 27 of his 32 symphonies were written after he turned 70, with 14 of these coming in his 80s, and a further 7 in his 90s. He died in 1972, at the age of 96, and some 40 years after his death, the orchestras and recording companies have been slowly making these works available for people to judge. Who'd have thought we'd ever get to a point where we can choose between three recordings of the apparently-unperformable (Pah!) Gothic?


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

So, made it through in two listening sessions, the orchestral first part last night before retiring and the choral second part just now. Wow, that is a lot of music. I was immediately drawn in by the music however I'm reluctant to give any opinion for works that are unfamiliar to me, let alone a symphony so massive as this, however my feelings are generally positive for this work, especially the first orchestral part and the Judex movement. I'll revisit Brian's Gothic through another recording. I listened to the Marco Polo/Ondrej Lenard recording, the only one I could find on youtube. When my budget allows it I will allow the Boult or Brabbins recording to slip into my shopping cart.

This is a good Symphony Saturday! Brian is a composer I have heard of but never heard and this gave me the nudge to correct that.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

A few of my favourite passages:

In the third movement, the antiphonal placement of the two sets of main-orchestra timpani comes into its own near the movement's climax. This section is followed by an incredibly virtuoso xylophone solo, some very low notes from bass and contrabass trombones, and a heroic battle march culminates in a huge outburst for full orchestra plus organ, emphasising the D minor tonality of the purely orchestral Part I. This suddenly comes to a stop, and a quiet passage modulates to D major, paving the way for the choirs' arrival.

The fifth movement introduces four offstage brass bands, each with its own set of timpani. Each of the four adult choirs sings "Judex crederis esse venturus" in turn, accompanied by each of the brass bands. This movement's ending is the loudest part of the whole work, Brian's entire forces making a monumental, cataclysmic sound.


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## Proms Fanatic (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks to all who've posted reviews etc about the work.

Unfortunately it will have to be Sunday Symphony for me as real life has got in the way but I'm looking forward to listening to it tomorrow!


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> This is part of a series, and the OP is pulling the works from the TC best symphonies list. Kudos to him for managing this, but he isn't selecting the works.


Grazie mille, Signore...I was wondering how it all works...now I perceive things just a little bit better...Thanks so much:cheers::cheers::cheers:


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Ilarion said:


> Grazie mille, Signore...I was wondering how it all works...now I perceive things just a little bit better...Thanks so much:cheers::cheers::cheers:


Here's the link to "The TC 150 Most Recommended Symphonies" if you haven't yet tracked it down, Ilarion

http://http://www.talkclassical.com/12443-tc-150-most-recommended.html#post144821

Anyhoo...

To-day I went with what I found on Spotify. I hadn't previously heard this colossal work before, only a selection of Brian's rather good art songs. (I confess I still haven't heard it all as I fell asleep in the middle  ).

It seems eccentric and is very long but there's much of interest too. I'll have to give it another spin.

*
Havergal Brian - Symphony No. 1 'The Gothic'*
Lúènica Chorus, The Slovak Radio Symphony Orchestra, Slovak Philharmonic Orchestra; 
Ondrej Lenárd (Conductor) [Naxos 2004 but recorded 1989 I think]


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

TurnaboutVox said:


> Here's the link to "The TC 150 Most Recommended Symphonies" if you haven't yet tracked it down, Ilarion
> 
> http://http://www.talkclassical.com/12443-tc-150-most-recommended.html#post144821
> 
> ...


Bless your generous heart, TurnaboutVox - Thanx a million for pointing me in the right direction. :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:


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## timh (Nov 14, 2014)

I was looking at the score and noticed that unaccompanied voices are used a lot. A rough bar count reveals

Mvt . Voices only. Total 
4: Te Deum	129	433	30%
5: Judex	94	334	28%
6: Te ergo	97	751	13%

So the Te Deum has 129 bars of unaccompanied voices out of a total of 433 bars which is roughly 30%.
I am bit surprised the Te Deum has slightly more unaccompanied voices then the Judex.

By comparison Mahler’s 8th Symphony has just 6 bars of unaccompanied voices. There are quite a lot of bars of voices with a single instrument.


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## Polyphemus (Nov 2, 2011)

To listen to The Gothic once and condemn it seems to me to be rather silly. It is a massive work and does need to be borne with. 
While I am convinced that it will never be the most popular it does contain some wonderful music.
Brian composed 32 symphonies and there are very few available on disc, a great pity, I would love to hear more of his music. 
It is also notable that he is not played often enough in the concert hall.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Ilarion said:


> Grazie mille, Signore...I was wondering how it all works...now I perceive things just a little bit better...Thanks so much:cheers::cheers::cheers:


Yep, each week I post a Symphony from that list and over the weekend everyone is invited to listen to it and share their thoughts. Feel free to join in. Everyone is welcome. It's kind of like a book club but each week we listen to a different symphony. The idea was to get people listening together and discover new works they hadn't previously heard or revisit old favorites or if you're familiar with the work, perhaps try a recording you haven't heard before. It was original listed as the Saturday Symphony but it's really you can listen to it anytime leading up to the next week's Symphony.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I don't participate every week as I'm often busy at the weekend, but when I have I have really benefited. I have never really listened widely to symphonic compositions. When I do listen to orchestral music, I have tended to stick to a few favourite composers. The Saturday Symphony project has been a good reason and an encouragement to broaden my horizons!

So - thanks for your continued administration of it, realdealblues.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

TurnaboutVox said:


> I don't participate every week as I'm often busy at the weekend, but when I have I have really benefited. I have never really listened widely to symphonic compositions. When I do listen to orchestral music, I have tended to stick to a few favourite composers. The Saturday Symphony project has been a good reason and an encouragement to broaden my horizons!
> 
> So - thanks for your continued administration of it, realdealblues.


Thanks! And thanks for participating when you can.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

realdealblues said:


> Yep, each week I post a Symphony from that list and over the weekend everyone is invited to listen to it and share their thoughts. Feel free to join in. Everyone is welcome. It's kind of like a book club but each week we listen to a different symphony. The idea was to get people listening together and discover new works they hadn't previously heard or revisit old favorites or if you're familiar with the work, perhaps try a recording you haven't heard before. It was original listed as the Saturday Symphony but it's really you can listen to it anytime leading up to the next week's Symphony.


This is a great forum to be with - So many chances for a plebe like me to get educated and hopefully more wise as time progresses - Yeah, a "Symphony of the Week Club" - Thats nice..............................................................................


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## Proms Fanatic (Nov 23, 2014)

So I finally got round to listening to this today. Wouldn't ya know that it's not that easy to find two hours to dedicate to one listening!

Thanks to all who posted reading material for the work, this really helped me to navigate my way through this enormous piece.

My favourite section of the symphony was probably the 4th and 5th movements, the way that Brian blended in the medieval-style plain chant interspersed with Mahlerian use of the choirs and brass worked very well together.

The Haydn this week is going to be much different!


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