# Arias that bore the opera glasses off of you unless X is singing it.



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

There are a few arias that I've always found somewhat underwhelming, but adore the versions by one or more particular arias. So here's a thread about singers that 'make' an aria, a scene or a role for us.

Il Trovatore - 'Ah! si ben mio' is an aria that I find rather "cavatina by numbers" and the contrast with it's cabaletta (Di quella pira), that is as rousing as it is famous, doesn't help, but I can't get enough of the version from Corelli's complete studio recording of the opera.

Which singers transform opera that otherwise don't shine for you?

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Both Callas and Corelli do that repeatedly for me. *Andrea Chénier *is an opera I listen only when Corelli and Callas sing in it. *Carmen *is tolerable only when Callas (and to a lesser extent) Corelli sing it. Would I be interested in *La Vestale *if Callas (and luckily) Corelli weren’t there? I got interested in *Medea *solely because Callas sang it and came to love the opera, but can barely stand the other sopranos who murder it. So it is with operas such as *I Puritani*, *Manon Lescaut*, *Madama Butterfly*, and others made more interesting when her voice and artistry turned to them. There are many more examples, but as many have said, once you hear her do it, it spoils it for everyone else. It is actually a sad thing, to not be able to enjoy other singers in “her” operas!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

DUPLICATE POST


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> Both Callas and Corelli do that repeatedly for me. *Andrea Chénier *is an opera I listen only when Corelli and Callas sing in it. *Carmen *is tolerable only when Callas (and to a lesser extent) Corelli sing it. Would I be interested in *La Vestale *if Callas (and luckily) Corelli weren’t there? I got interested in *Medea *solely because Callas sang it and came to love the opera, but can barely stand the other sopranos who murder it. So it is with operas such as *I Puritani*, *Manon Lescaut*, *Madama Butterfly*, and others made more interesting when her voice and artistry turned to them. There are many more examples, but as many have said, once you hear her do it, it spoils it for everyone else. It is actually a sad thing, to not be able to enjoy other singers in “her” operas!


I'd even go so far to say that some of Callas' live performances almost 'ruined' her studio sets for me! (Sonnambula comes in that category as does Aida and Ballo,)

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I'd even go so far to say that some of Callas' live performances almost 'ruined' her studio sets for me! (Sonnambula comes in that category as does Aida and Ballo,)
> 
> N.


In the case of *Ballo*, I think Gavazzeni in the live performance made all the difference.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

MAS said:


> In the case of *Ballo*, I think Gavazzeni in the live performance made all the difference.


Callas is in better voice too; she adopts a strange method of vocal production at points in her studio recordings.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> There are a few arias that I've always found somewhat underwhelming, but adore the versions by one or more particular arias. So here's a thread about singers that 'make' an aria, a scene or a role for us.
> 
> Il Trovatore - 'Ah! si ben mio' is an aria that I find rather "cavatina by numbers" and the contrast with it's cabaletta (Di quella pira), that is as rousing as it is famous, doesn't help, but I can't get enough of the version from Corelli's complete studio recording of the opera.
> 
> ...


The Habanera from Carmen I find really dull except when de los Angeles or Crespin sing it.


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## Dogville (Dec 28, 2021)

If we are talking about arias, 'Una Voce Poco Fa' damn near puts me to sleep except for when Callas and Ingeborg Hallstein sing it.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> The Habanera from Carmen I find really dull except when de los Angeles or Crespin sing it.


Regine Crespin is a more interesting Carmen to you than Callas? That's one I've never heard (wouldn't have expected her to even touch that rep. She tended more toward Wagner, French falcon roles and occasionally late Verdi/verismo roles).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Callas makes a number of operas interesting enough to draw me back, operas I don't necessarily dislike but which do much less for me in lesser hands. They would include Tosca, Carmen, Medea, and much of Bellini and Donizetti.


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

When I first listened to Sutherland's studio Anna Bolena, my first impression was: how can people tolerate these 3 hours of elevator music? Then I got the Divina Records remastering of Callas's live 1957 performance, I can see Donizetti's music is very dramatic, and he was somewhat a genius of the theater. 

Most of Mozart's roles written for females -Zerlina, Despina, Donna Elvira, Cherubino, Pamina, and Ilia, used to bore the cr** out of me. It was not until I was given two sets *Great Mozart Singers in Opera (1905-1944)* and *Les Introuvables du Chant Mozartien* that I began to love Mozart's operas. I still maintain that Mozart's music should be sung by full/large voice rather than tip-toeing/meowing around the notes.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

s


BalalaikaBoy said:


> Regine Crespin is a more interesting Carmen to you than Callas? That's one I've never heard (wouldn't have expected her to even touch that rep. She tended more toward Wagner, French falcon roles and occasionally late Verdi/verismo roles).


she is French and while not wild she is alluring and seductive. and I think Callas is overrated as Carmen. Her recording came out with much hype and we are atill living in the echo of that hype.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Francasacchi said:


> s
> she is French and while not wild she is alluring and seductive. and I think Callas is overrated as Carmen. Her recording came out with much hype and we are atill living in the echo of that hype.


So you think the echo of the hype has survived these 58 years and that is why people overrate the Callas *Carmen*? (If you hear rumbles overhead, duck, as the lightning will strike)! 😂😂😂

BTW, I detest that opera!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

The Conte said:


> There are a few arias that I've always found somewhat underwhelming, but adore the versions by one or more particular arias. So here's a thread about singers that 'make' an aria, a scene or a role for us.
> 
> Il Trovatore - 'Ah! si ben mio' is an aria that I find rather "cavatina by numbers" and the contrast with it's cabaletta (Di quella pira), that is as rousing as it is famous, doesn't help, but I can't get enough of the version from Corelli's complete studio recording of the opera.
> 
> ...


Hard agree. Corelli slays that aria.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

MAS said:


> So you think the echo of the hype has survived these 58 years and that is why people overrate the Callas *Carmen*? (If you hear rumbles overhead, duck, as the lightning will strike)! 😂😂😂
> 
> BTW, I detest that opera!


yes. there are better Carmens vocally and dramatically


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> I think Callas is overrated as Carmen. Her recording came out with much hype and we are atill living in the echo of that hype. There are better Carmens vocally and dramatically.


Carmen is an original and rather enigmatic character that has borne a variety of interpretations, and has been sung effectively by a wide range of voices from contralto to soprano. Like her or not, Callas is distinctive in both voice and interpretation. I have never been greatly fond of _Carmen_ as an opera; I'd echo Ned Rorem's delightfully ambiguous compliment, "I like everything about _Carmen_ except _it_." But I found Callas a revelation; the dark, slightly rough timbre of her voice in 1964, with its covered quality and its powerful chest tones, sounded earthy, sultry, and a little threatening, and in her ability to find original and pointed inflections for line after line, always a feature of her art, she surprised even me with her creativity (a quality I value perhaps more than any other in singing). Her flawless French, and her ability to savor the expressive potential of its sounds, struck me too. She takes nothing in the role for granted, and no other Carmen I've heard has had a comparable ability to make my ears stand at attention, eager to hear what she'll do next to make a line of dialogue fresh and new. Hers is not a soft or vulnerable character, and some may find her too tough or fierce - "Love me at your own risk!" - but that is certainly a valid way to play her. I would say that any Carmen who doesn't convey that danger and that challenge is surely missing a central aspect of the role.

Well, that's what I like about the Callas Carmen. Hype has not a thing to do with it. Now who do you prefer, and what do you hear in them that you like?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Carmen is an original and rather enigmatic character that has borne a variety of interpretations, and has been sung effectively by a wide range of voices from contralto to soprano. Like her or not, Callas is distinctive in both voice and interpretation. I have never been greatly fond of _Carmen_ as an opera; I'd echo Ned Rorem's delightfully ambiguous compliment, "I like everything about _Carmen_ except _it_." But I found Callas a revelation; the dark, slightly rough timbre of her voice in 1964, with its covered quality and its powerful chest tones, sounded earthy, sultry, and a little threatening, and in her ability to find original and pointed inflections for line after line, always a feature of her art, she surprised even me with her creativity (a quality I value perhaps more than any other in singing). Her flawless French, and her ability to savor the expressive potential of its sounds, struck me too. She takes nothing in the role for granted, and no other Carmen I've heard has had a comparable ability to make my ears stand at attention, eager to hear what she'll do next to make a line of dialogue fresh and new. Hers is not a soft or vulnerable character, and some may find her too tough or fierce - "Love me at your own risk!" - but that is certainly a valid way to play her. I would say that any Carmen who doesn't convey that danger and that challenge is surely missing a central aspect of the role.
> 
> Well, that's what I like about the Callas Carmen. Hype has not a thing to do with it. Now who do you prefer, and what do you hear in them that you like?


I LOVE the music of Carmen.... in the Carmen Orchestral Suite and even better in Horowitz's fantasy encore piece. The opera less so except for the Card Scene. You are right about Callas catching the right temperament for the part. Price was a wonderful Carmen but it nearly ruined her voice she said. Stephanie Blythe in her performance here had the incredibly gorgeous and sensuous sound for the part but people here who normally love her had lots of issues with such a zaftig sexy lady. Ponselle had likely the most glorious voice ever to sing the part but she failed at the characterization. Norman had the right voice but bombed in her studio recording, though her live encores of Carmen were fabulously sensual and sultry . Rise Stevens is I think justifiably the most famous Carmen and had by far the most performances of that role at The Met. Ewa Podles sounds fabulous in the role but she sounds way too mature for most people I think - though I'd love to think I'd still had a chance at Don Jose at my age 😜I am including a marvelous concert clip of Stephanie Blythe as Carmen and strangely it, of all her Youtube videos, gives a hint of the jaw dropping size of her voice, the biggest I ever heard: 



. None of her other Youtube clips give a sense of the size of her voice. Here she overcomes the volume of a whole choir. I love this comment below this video.
*JJ Lungdoc*
7 months ago
The video does not even begin to suggest the power of that voice. I was there and she simply overwhelmed Carnegie Hall with her immense voice. In person she sounded like if she had 10 microphones amplifying her voice but of course that sound was hers alone.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I LOVE the music of Carmen.... in the Carmen Orchestral Suite and even better in Horowitz's fantasy encore piece. The opera less so except for the Card Scene. You are right about Callas catching the right temperament for the part. Price was a wonderful Carmen but it nearly ruined her voice she said. Stephanie Blythe in her performance here had the incredibly gorgeous and sensuous sound for the part but people here who normally love her had lots of issues with such a zaftig sexy lady. Ponselle had likely the most glorious voice ever to sing the part but she failed at the characterization. Norman had the right voice but bombed in her studio recording, though her live encores of Carmen were fabulously sensual and sultry . Rise Stevens is I think justifiably the most famous Carmen and had by far the most performances of that role at The Met. Ewa Podles sounds fabulous in the role but she sounds way too mature for most people I think - though I'd love to think I'd still had a chance at Don Jose at my age 😜I am including a marvelous concert clip of Stephanie Blythe as Carmen and strangely it, of all her Youtube videos, gives a hint of the jaw dropping size of her voice, the biggest I ever heard:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alas, I find Blythe's voice and singing quite unseductive. She sounds old and short of breath.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Alas, I find Blythe's voice and singing quite unseductive. She sounds old and short of breath.


She does sound short of breath, I'll give you that, but fifteen years before this concert it was not so when I heard her live This does show her personality and for once the size of her voice.. She is very unrepresented on Youtube. A really heavy singer at 35 can breath well. A heavy singer at 50, not so much so. Jane Eaglen ran into those issues. Not too many years after this she rebranded herself as a tenor and was singing an octave lower.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I saw Carmen in my teenage years as a movie by Francesco Rossi, with Julia Migenes (a primarily musical theatre singer :-o ) and Placido Domingo, and it knocked me out for months, a similar thing Norma is doing to me right now. Nevertheless, I am avoiding it on stage, in fact I could go even this week in my town, but I won't. It is played too often and people are not careful enough how they do it, because some audience is guarranteed to be there, regardless of the treatment.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> I am avoiding it on stage, in fact I could go even this week in my town, but I won't. It is played too often and people are not careful enough how they do it, because some audience is guarranteed to be there, regardless of the treatment.


Interesting point. We would hope that most performers don't take the old warhorses for granted, but companies certainly know that they can cast cast second- and third-string singers in _Carmen_ or _Boheme_ and still have a well-filled house. Those are among the operas I can no longer bear to hear unless they're superbly sung.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She does sound short of breath, I'll give you that, but fifteen years before this concert it was not so when I heard her live This does show her personality and for once the size of her voice.. She is very unrepresented on Youtube. A really heavy singer at 35 can breath well. A heavy singer at 50, not so much so. Jane Eaglen ran into those issues. Not too many years after this she rebranded herself as a tenor and was singing an octave lower.


No doubt a good career move. Crossdressing crossover.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I saw Carmen in my teenage years as a movie by Francesco Rossi, with Julia Migenes (a primarily musical theatre singer :-o ) and Placido Domingo, and it knocked me out for months, a similar thing Norma is doing to me right now. Nevertheless, I am avoiding it on stage, in fact I could go even this week in my town, but I won't. It is played too often and people are not careful enough how they do it, because some audience is guarranteed to be there, regardless of the treatment.


That was a great film version. I think I saw it in a theatre. Been a while. Which version of Norma are you watching? The music is just so extraordinary. I have a Norma contest coming up presently


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

OffPitchNeb said:


> When I first listened to Sutherland's studio Anna Bolena, my first impression was: how can people tolerate these 3 hours of elevator music? Then I got the Divina Records remastering of Callas's live 1957 performance, I can see Donizetti's music is very dramatic, and he was somewhat a genius of the theater.


As Richard Fairman puts it in _Opera on Record III_, “Allone, of latter-day artists, [only Callas] has the power to grasp the emotional crux of every line and put it across.” Everyone else I've heard in the role is just plain dull. 

I feel pretty much the same about every role she sang, but there are some operas I don't ever bother with if she isn't singing them.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> s
> she is French and while not wild she is alluring and seductive. and I think Callas is overrated as Carmen. Her recording came out with much hype and we are atill living in the echo of that hype.


I very much doubt that. After all, it was released almost 60 years ago now! 

I've lost count of the amount of Carmens I've heard now. The only other singer who came close to making the character as interesting to me was Baltsa live at Covent Garden. My Carmen isn't just "alluring and seductive", she is sexy and dangerous, a true free spirit, a woman who refuses to be tied down by the prevailing morals of the day, nor be subjugated to any one man. As it happens, the Callas *Carmen *was not universally praised when it first came out (nor was the De Sabata *Tosca *for that matter) but it has gained in approval ever since. When it was first issued on CD, Richard Osborne in Gramophone wrote, “Her Carmen is one of those rare experiences, like Piaf singing _La vie en rose_, or Dietrich in *The Blue Angel*, which is inimitable, unforgettable, and on no account to be missed.” It's one of those performances that is never quite how you remember it and I find it endlessly fascinating. 

There is something just too urbane, too civilised and too _soignée _about Crespin to ever make her a convincing Carmen to me.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That was a great film version. I think I saw it in a theatre. Been a while. Which version of Norma are you watching? The music is just so extraordinary. I have a Norma contest coming up presently


Yes, that Carmen (directed by Francesco Rossi) was well made.

I fell in love with Norma through Joan Sutherland in Sydney. Later it was won over by Callas with del Monaco in La Scala 1955. But it is nice being in the youtube age and watch or listen to various versions, sometimes as the complete opera, sometimes just the parts (Gencer, Caballe, Devia, Rebeka, Sally Mathews, Guleghina, there are many more...). The dominant versions of this week is the finale of the studio recording Callas&Corelli and the stereo remastered Callas from Argentina in 1949.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

MAS said:


> So you think the echo of the hype has survived these 58 years and that is why people overrate the Callas *Carmen*? (If you hear rumbles overhead, duck, as the lightning will strike)! 😂😂😂
> 
> BTW, I detest that opera!


Have you listened to Germaine Cernay? She has a very characterful, very French, approach which makes the music come alive in ways others don't manage.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> ... *Carmen ...*
> BTW, I detest that opera!


Why exactly ?


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Op.123 said:


> Have you listened to Germaine Cernay? She has a very characterful, very French, approach which makes the music come alive in ways others don't manage.


Yes. She is wonderful


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Carmen is an original and rather enigmatic character that has borne a variety of interpretations, and has been sung effectively by a wide range of voices from contralto to soprano. Like her or not, Callas is distinctive in both voice and interpretation. I have never been greatly fond of _Carmen_ as an opera; I'd echo Ned Rorem's delightfully ambiguous compliment, "I like everything about _Carmen_ except _it_." But I found Callas a revelation; the dark, slightly rough timbre of her voice in 1964, with its covered quality and its powerful chest tones, sounded earthy, sultry, and a little threatening, and in her ability to find original and pointed inflections for line after line, always a feature of her art, she surprised even me with her creativity (a quality I value perhaps more than any other in singing). Her flawless French, and her ability to savor the expressive potential of its sounds, struck me too. She takes nothing in the role for granted, and no other Carmen I've heard has had a comparable ability to make my ears stand at attention, eager to hear what she'll do next to make a line of dialogue fresh and new. Hers is not a soft or vulnerable character, and some may find her too tough or fierce - "Love me at your own risk!" - but that is certainly a valid way to play her. I would say that any Carmen who doesn't convey that danger and that challenge is surely missing a central aspect of the role.
> 
> Well, that's what I like about the Callas Carmen. Hype has not a thing to do with it. Now who do you prefer, and what do you hear in them that you like?


I get more of the earthiness and the sultriness and the danger in the Carmen of Leontyne Price. And note both never sang the part on stage though it would have been in the realm of possibility for Callas. But I would have preferred a complete Dalila from Callas on stage.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She does sound short of breath, I'll give you that, but fifteen years before this concert it was not so when I heard her live This does show her personality and for once the size of her voice.. She is very unrepresented on Youtube. A really heavy singer at 35 can breath well. A heavy singer at 50, not so much so. Jane Eaglen ran into those issues. Not too many years after this she rebranded herself as a tenor and was singing an octave lower.


Stephanie Blythe is a friend of mine. She now considers herself a contralto who can also sing tenor.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> I get more of the earthiness and the sultriness and the danger in the Carmen of Leontyne Price. And note both never sang the part on stage though it would have been in the realm of possibility for Callas. But I would have preferred a complete Dalila from Callas on stage.


I don't funnily enough, though I do quite like her Carmen. Still, she doesn't fascinate me as much.

I doubt Callas would ever have sung Dalila on stage. The role needs more consistent power in the lower register than Carmen and more than Callas could readily command. Legge said shat the found the tessitura of Dalila's arias quite difficult, and it is likely the reason she adamantly refused to allow her recording of _Mon coeur s'ouvre _to be released during her lifetime. It wasn't released until after her death.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Francasacchi said:


> Stephanie Blythe is a friend of mine. She now considers herself a contralto who can also sing tenor.


I LOVE her and felt she never got the recognition she deserved. She is so funny and charismatic in her male drag persona!!! She still doesn't sound old, just lower. I am super jealous. Her Amneris is the most impressive role I ever saw onstage! Tell her that! Speight Jenkins of Seattle Opera said she was the greatest Amneris he had seen since Simeonato!!!


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't funnily enough, though I do quite like her Carmen. Still, she doesn't fascinate me as much.
> 
> I doubt Callas would ever have sung Dalila on stage. The role needs more consistent power in the lower register than Carmen and more than Callas could readily command. Legge said shat the found the tessitura of Dalila's arias quite difficult, and it is likely the reason she adamantly refused to allow her recording of _Mon coeur s'ouvre _to be released during her lifetime. It wasn't released until after her death.


Well, one can dream. i imagine a hair raising act 2 duet with Bacquier as the High Priest


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

BBSVK said:


> Why exactly ?


*Exactly? *I can’t say, perhaps because I saw and heard it too often. You could say I am jaded.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

MAS said:


> *Exactly? *I can’t say, perhaps because I saw and heard it too often. You could say I am jaded.


How sad. Is it reversible ? Maybe not, now that you know it already and have unpleasant associations :-( I was so lucky to see a very impressive version for the first time in my life. And, as I say, I don't go to live performances of it and even on youtube, I watch it rarely. Last time I did, it was a hardcore regietheater, though :-D


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> *Exactly? *I can’t say, perhaps because I saw and heard it too often. You could say I am jaded.


I'm sure you'd agree that _Carmen_ is full of original, inspired and delightful music, that it creates a highly distinctive musical world, and that its sexy, strong and enigmatic central character is a great vehicle for a singer-actor. These are major assets for an opera, and it's easy to understand the work's popularity. My own indifference to it isn't a matter of being jaded, but of being unmoved by it, of receiving little that stirs my imagination or remains to nourish my life after the curtain falls. Except for Carmen herself, who is fascinating in her bravado but hardly sympathetic, the other characters are unengaging to me; and I don't care what happens to them (apparently neither did Bizet, since Micaela just disappears - home to Mother, I guess - and Escamillo is an advertisement for animal abuse who ends as a prop). Even Carmen's death doesn't mean anything: it's simply, literally, in the cards; it isn't sad or terrible or transforming. And whatever it is that Jose is feeling after he kills her is ambiguous. In any case he's pathetic and contemptible, and if they march him back to prison Spain will be none the worse for his absence.

I realize that my response to _Carmen_ is a personal one that says as much about my artistic biases as it does about the opera. The work makes perfect sense on is own terms, which I would identify as the terms of aesthetic naturalism, in which the very absence of transcendent meaning is very much the point. Sentimentality is forbidden, Carmen herself embodies an anti-sentimental view of life, Micaela is a foil to that, and Jose, who comes from Micaela's world, is fascinated by Carmen's and destroyed when he tries to be a part of it. I get all that, and maybe if I were less fanciful and more down to earth I'd like the opera better.

Anyway, just some Saturday morning musings.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Even her death means little; her last word is for Don José: _tiens! _as she throws the ring back at him; and he stabs her silently - she just dies.

Leonie Rysanek would probably interpolate one of her famous screams, or at least a loud gasp.


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## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

MAS said:


> Even her death means little; her last word is for Don José: _tiens! _as she throws the ring back at him; and he stabs her silently - she just dies.
> 
> Leonie Rysanek would probably interpolate one of her famous screams, or at least a loud gasp.


Which is why I like Crespins nonchalant voicing of tiens.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> Which is why I like Crespins nonchalant voicing of tiens.


Conrad Osborne, reviewing the Callas _Carmen_ when it was released, noted that Callas was "still the tigress" at the end, and speculated that on further consideration she might have played the final moments with less ferocity and more fatalisic acceptance. It's a good point.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Shorter version: Carmen is about rejection by someone who loved us before, and about the love for nature and open air, both relatable to me.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Conrad Osborne, reviewing the Callas _Carmen_ when it was released, noted that Callas was "still the tigress" at the end, and speculated that on further consideration she might have played the final moments with less ferocity and more fatalisic acceptance. It's a good point.


What "final moments" ? Did she ever record the final duet with a tenor ?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> What "final moments" ? Did she ever record the final duet with a tenor ?


I'm recalling a review from over 50 years ago. Further details are lost in the mists of time.

What duet? Carmen and Jose never sing together.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> I'm recalling a review from over 50 years ago. Further details are lost in the mists of time.
> 
> What duet? Carmen and Jose never sing together.


They do  . When she dances for him at the Lilas Pastia's and the other duet is before he kills her.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> They do  . When she dances for him at the Lilas Pastia's and the other duet is before he kills her.


Funny I don't remember the latter one, and barely recall the former one. Guess I've been ignoring the opera for a long, long time.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Funny I don't remember the latter one, and barely recall the former one. Guess I've been ignoring the opera for a long, long time.


One of the critics likened it to “two dogs barking at one another,” or some such thing.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Funny I don't remember the latter one, and barely recall the former one. Guess I've been ignoring the opera for a long, long time.


The final duet


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Funny I don't remember the latter one, and barely recall the former one. Guess I've been ignoring the opera for a long, long time.


And also in the first act, when she persuades him to let her run away, to avoid her imprisonment. She promises him the meeting at Lilas Pastia's.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The final duet


Wow, I had no idea this existed ! Thanx !!!


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I feel like old Meneghini now... 
You made my day.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The final duet


Ah yes, it comes back to me now. The actual duetting is brief, though, so I'm not surprised that I forgot about it. It's an argument in which they momentarily talk at the same time.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Ah yes, it comes back to me now. The actual duetting is brief, though, so I'm not surprised that I forgot about it. It's an argument in which they momentarily talk at the same time.


You seem to expect from the duet that people sing in sync. For me it is anything where two people sing together (or take turns) and can make it a concert piece.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> You seem to expect from the duet that people sing in sync. For me it is anything where two people sing together (or take turns) and can make it a concert piece.


Not at all. The term "duet" is rather loose, and can cover something as brief as the Sophie/Octavian duet at the end of _Rosenkavalier, _or as long as the conversational love scene between Otello and Desdemona. And there's always the extended Act 2, scene 2 of _Tristan_ all the way from "O sink hernieder" to the entrance of King Marke. But the portion of _Carmen_'s final scene that could reasonably be called a duet lasts less than a minute, and has no real start or finish. It just happens, and then it's gone. No wonder I forgot about it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

..............................


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Not at all. The term "duet" is rather loose, and can cover something as brief as the Sophie/Octavian duet at the end of _Rosenkavalier, _or as long as the conversational love scene between Otello and Desdemona. And there's always the extended Act 2, scene 2 of _Tristan_ all the way from "O sink hernieder" to the entrance of King Marke. But the portion of _Carmen_'s final scene that could reasonably be called a duet lasts less than a minute, and has no real start or finish. It just happens, and then it's gone. No wonder I forgot about it.


The whole scene, starting with "Is it you ?" "(Yes) It's me" takes almost 9 minutes. Are you saying, it is more like a recitative most of the time ? If you see the original version of Carmen, with the spoken dialogue (as made for the Opera Comique by Bizet), it is more clear, that this is a duet for the whole duration. This part has always been sung, never spoken.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> The whole scene, starting with "Is it you ?" "(Yes) It's me" takes almost 9 minutes. Are you saying, it is more like a recitative most of the time ? If you see the original version of Carmen, with the spoken dialogue (as made for the Opera Comique by Bizet), it is more clear, that this is a duet for the whole duration. This part has always been sung, never spoken.


Duet is a loose term, but if we make it as loose as that then practically any operatic scene between two people could be called a duet, any involving three people a trio, etc. Moreover, framing sung conversations with spoken dialogue doesn't make them duets. I can't see that as a useful expansion of the term. The scene in question is a developing dramatic dialogue - not a "number," but not recitative either, rather a through-composed dialogue of the sort normal in Wagner, late Verdi and most opera after them. It veers into and out of a brief passage of duetting in the course of sweeping us along to the opera's denouement. We have similar cases in many operas, where there are stretches of dramatic dialogue interspersed with sections of duet where the action slows or stops momentarily for the characters to express specific feelings in a musically distinct way before continuing to fight about their inheritance or resuming their plot to assassinate the Grand Duke.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Duet is a loose term, but if we make it as loose as that then practically any operatic scene between two people could be called a duet, any involving three people a trio, etc. Moreover, framing sung conversations with spoken dialogue doesn't make them duets. I can't see that as a useful expansion of the term. The scene in question is a developing dramatic dialogue - not a "number," but not recitative either, rather a through-composed dialogue of the sort normal in Wagner, late Verdi and most opera afer them. It veers into and out of a brief passage of duetting in the course of sweeping us along to the opera's denouement. We have similar cases in many operas, where there are stretches of dramatic dialogue interspersed with sections of duet where the action slows or stops momentarily for the characters to express specific feelings in a musically distinct way before continuing to fight about their inheritance or resuming their plot to assassinate the Grand Duke.


I understand your point, but I have always perceived it both as a duet and a musical number. Jose Cura was in our town this summer (he is past his prime :-D) and he sang this with Polina Shmaeva as a concert number here.

Anyway, it is not important how we call it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> I understand your point, but I have always perceived it both as a duet and a musical number. Jose Cura was in our town this summer (he is past his prime :-D) and he sang this with Polina Shmaeva as a concert number here.
> 
> Anyway, it is not important how we call it.


Agreed, so long as we know what's meant. Of course that's what dictionaries of music are for, "duet" being first and foremost a musical term..


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Duet is a loose term, but if we make it as loose as that then practically any operatic scene between two people could be called a duet, any involving three people a trio, etc. Moreover, framing sung conversations with spoken dialogue doesn't make them duets. I can't see that as a useful expansion of the term. The scene in question is a developing dramatic dialogue - not a "number," but not recitative either, rather a through-composed dialogue of the sort normal in Wagner, late Verdi and most opera after them. It veers into and out of a brief passage of duetting in the course of sweeping us along to the opera's denouement. We have similar cases in many operas, where there are stretches of dramatic dialogue interspersed with sections of duet where the action slows or stops momentarily for the characters to express specific feelings in a musically distinct way before continuing to fight about their inheritance or resuming their plot to assassinate the Grand Duke.


As you say, it gets harder to define what constitutes a duet in nineteenth century opera onwards and, for convenience perhaps, it is easier to refer to extended scenes between two people that are not carried out in recitative as duets. Take the _In mia man _section of the last act of *Norma*. This is usually referred to as a duet, but the two characters rarely overlap let alone sing together. The scene is carried forward on what amounts to one extended melody, almost an aria for two people. Verdi thought it one of the greatest examples of melody used to dramatic ends and the scene is undeniably effective.

Unlike you, I do find the expansion of the term duet to take in extended scenes between two people quite useful and I know exactly what section people mean when they refer to the Love Duet from *Otello *or *Tristan und Isolde*, or the final duet from *Carmen*. I also take what people refer to as the Cherry Duet from *L'amico Fritz *to mean the whole section from _Suzel, buon di,_ rather than just the bits when the two characters sing together.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Words are commonly used loosely. Sometimes it matters, other times not. Maybe it doesn't in the question of what an operatic duet (or trio or quartet) is, but it's interesting to consider what the cases we call by a certain name have in common. Let's consider the paradigmatic operatic duet, the love duet.

In a love duet there is a union or harmony of feeling, whether or not there's a union or harmony of voices, and this prompts a composer to create a distinct musical and dramatic entity during which the story pauses and the emotion of love is revealed and probed. In _Otello_ the lovers take turns expressing themselves; in _Tristan_ they sing together at times and alternately at other times, even falling silent to allow Brangaene to sing or the orchestra to play. But however they're structured, in both of these operas the scene stops, or stands apart from, the action of the story, and has a distinct musical character to mark its distinctness. Elsewhere in their operas Otello and Desdemona and Tristan and Isolde have extended dialogues that carry on the story in various ways and express a variety of feelings and ideas, but no one, to my knowledge, refers to these conversations as duets. We don't have a "where's your handkerchief" duet or a "murder duet" in _Otello_, or an "attempted suicide duet" in Act 1 of _Tristan. _But as soon as T&I down that Cupid cocktail they actually do have a few minutes of real duetting while the world spins around them, and not only the stage action but the music tells us clearly, "This is a duet."

There are duets in which feelings other than love are expressed - vengeance duets, vows of brotherhood duets, etc. - but what they typically have in common, to one degree or another, is the mutual expression of a certain feeling or idea, a pause in the progression of the story, and a musical content that sets them apart. I think at least one, and preferably more than one, of these elements needs to be present in order for the concept of a duet to be useful. Otherwise we simply have a dialogue.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Words are commonly used loosely. Sometimes it matters, other times not. Maybe it doesn't in the question of what an operatic duet (or trio or quartet) is, but it's interesting to consider what the cases we call by a certain name have in common. Let's consider the paradigmatic operatic duet, the love duet.
> 
> In a love duet there is a union or harmony of feeling, whether or not there's a union or harmony of voices, and this prompts a composer to create a distinct musical and dramatic entity during which the story pauses and the emotion of love is revealed and probed. In _Otello_ the lovers take turns expressing themselves; in _Tristan_ they sing together at times and alternately at other times, even falling silent to allow Brangaene to sing or the orchestra to play. But however they're structured, in both of these operas the scene stops, or stands apart from, the action of the story, and has a distinct musical character to mark its distinctness. Elsewhere in their operas Otello and Desdemona and Tristan and Isolde have extended dialogues that carry on the story in various ways and express a variety of feelings and ideas, but no one, to my knowledge, refers to these conversations as duets. We don't have a "where's your handkerchief" duet or a "murder duet" in _Otello_, or an "attempted suicide duet" in Act 1 of _Tristan. _But as soon as T&I down that Cupid cocktail they actually do have a few minutes of real duetting while the world spins around them, and not only the stage action but the music tells us clearly, "This is a duet."
> 
> There are duets in which feelings other than love are expressed - vengeance duets, vows of brotherhood duets, etc. - but what they typically have in common, to one degree or another, is the mutual expression of a certain feeling or idea, a pause in the progression of the story, and a musical content that sets them apart. I think at least one, and preferably more than one, of these elements needs to be present in order for the concept of a duet to be useful. Otherwise we simply have a dialogue.


Those dictionaries I checked briefly online do not describe duets the way you do. It is just two people singing. 
Expert dictionaries might have different definitions, but I have those at my mothers flat. 
The Carmen finale is described as a duet in my booklet from the recital of Jose Cura, photo hopefully attached.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

That words can be used in various ways doesn't make all those ways equally useful to the understanding and conducive to clarity of thought. 

If a duet is merely "two people singing together" then many an opera - _Otello_, for example - consists mainly of "duets". How helpful and sensible is that?


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> If a duet is merely "two people singing together" then many an opera - _Otello_, for example - consists mainly of "duets". How helpful and sensible is that?


Sounds OK to me...
I can ask on one of my opera lectures, it will make me look like a deep thinker


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BBSVK said:


> Sounds OK to me...
> I can ask on one of my opera lectures, it will make me look like a deep thinker


My dear, no matter how we look, we either are or we aren't.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

"D'amor al dolce impero" from Rossini's Armida is a classic example of Callas making something great out of a somewhat generic aria.


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