# Bayreuth 2016



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

If anyone's interested Sky Arts are broadcasting Rheingold and Walkure from this years festival back to back this evening starting at 7.45 GMT.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

I'll be watching the Sat3 broadcast of Parsifal this afternoon. I think Meistersinger is broadcast on Thursday.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Götterdämmerung live now:

http://en.romania-muzical.ro/browser-player.htm


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

anmhe said:


> I'll be watching the Sat3 broadcast of Parsifal this afternoon. I think Meistersinger is broadcast on Thursday.


Bayreuth has no Meistersinger this year.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

That doesn't mean they're not showing one from a previous year. Check the listings. 8/4 at 20:15 (local time in Germany) on ZDF_kultur.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Looks like DG are going to release the recordings

http://slippedisc.com/2016/07/label-news-bayreuth-rolls-out-new-deal-with-dg/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Looks like DG are going to release the recordings
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2016/07/label-news-bayreuth-rolls-out-new-deal-with-dg/


I'm amused to read the press release saying that Bayreuth has been "combining tradition-conscious interpretations of Wagner's scores with an innovative workshop approach."

So that's the explanation for what I thought was a lot of perverse weirdness!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Looks like DG are going to release the recordings
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2016/07/label-news-bayreuth-rolls-out-new-deal-with-dg/


They must see some money making in with them .


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I recorded all of Sky Arts Bayreuth Ring and have been dipping into it before committing myself to watching it in its entirety. Mmm! It's certainly visually arresting and in the main, well sung and played, but I'm not sure that the production actually enhances my knowledge and appreciation of the Ring. It seems too fussy and with so much to look at it's difficult to concentrate on the music. I realise Wagner wanted a marriage of the visual and the aural but not, I suspect, at the expense of the overall experience. I shall endeavour to persevere!

If I have one complaint it's the ineffable twaddle talked by the so called "experts" like Stephen Fry and sundry other talking heads who continue to regurgitate the nonsense about anti-semitism and Nazi-ism that seems to be the focus of every discussion on the merits of Wagner's music. Move on people and confine your views to what the productions are telling us if they are telling us anything at all. Rant over. Back to the music.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> If I have one complaint it's the ineffable twaddle talked by the so called "experts" like Stephen Fry and sundry other talking heads who continue to regurgitate the nonsense about anti-semitism and Nazi-ism that seems to be the focus of every discussion on the merits of Wagner's music. Move on people and confine your views to what the productions are telling us if they are telling us anything at all. Rant over. Back to the music.


This is Bayreuth, Germany. They cannot be allowed to _simply enjoy_ their own music without being guilt-tripped. No way


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> I recorded all of Sky Arts Bayreuth Ring and have been dipping into it before committing myself to watching it in its entirety. Mmm! It's certainly visually arresting and in the main, well sung and played, but I'm not sure that the production actually enhances my knowledge and appreciation of the Ring. It seems too fussy and with so much to look at it's difficult to concentrate on the music. I realise Wagner wanted a marriage of the visual and the aural but not, I suspect, at the expense of the overall experience. I shall endeavour to persevere!
> 
> If I have one complaint it's the ineffable twaddle talked by the so called "experts" like Stephen Fry and sundry other talking heads who continue to regurgitate the nonsense about anti-semitism and Nazi-ism that seems to be the focus of every discussion on the merits of Wagner's music. Move on people and confine your views to what the productions are telling us if they are telling us anything at all. Rant over. Back to the music.


Greatly hoping that this Ring will be posted on YouTube; here in the USA we had no way to watch.


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> This is Bayreuth, Germany. They cannot be allowed to _simply enjoy_ their own music without being guilt-tripped. No way


:lol: you are right! I suppose we are afraid to do something wrong if we don't mention it anymore. Of course it's important to talk about it. But sometimes they overdo it a little bit


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ginger said:


> :lol: you are right! I suppose we are afraid to do something wrong if we don't mention it anymore. Of course it's important to talk about it. But sometimes they overdo it a little bit


The trouble is, there would be nothing new to be said about Wagner's antisemitism or its presence/absence in his operas if misconceptions, distortions and fake history were not still being manufactured by academics and others with axes to grind, and then automatically and constantly regurgitated in the popular media as if they were settled truth. We could indeed move on, as Barbebleu suggests, if political correctness and sensationalism could be forced to yield to sound scholarship. As it is, the falsehoods and bizarre theories have been repeated so often that people who know nothing actual about Wagner and have never heard a bar of his music think of him as the fountainhead of Nazi master-race ideology and of _Gotterdammerung_ as a prediction of the Holocaust. Those who do know him know that he would have been horrified by both. But our need to equate prejudice with genocide is still alive and kicking, and Wagner the monster makes better copy than Wagner the man, whose complexity defies our own prejudices and exposes our simple-mindedness and willful ignorance.


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## Ginger (Jul 14, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> The trouble is, there would be nothing new to be said about Wagner's antisemitism or its presence/absence in his operas if misconceptions, distortions and fake history were not still being manufactured by academics and others with axes to grind, and then automatically and constantly regurgitated in the popular media as if they were settled truth. We could indeed move on, as Barbebleu suggests, if political correctness and sensationalism could be forced to yield to sound scholarship. As it is, the falsehoods and bizarre theories have been repeated so often that people who know nothing actual about Wagner and have never heard a bar of his music think of him as the fountainhead of Nazi master-race ideology and of _Gotterdammerung_ as a prediction of the Holocaust. Those who do know him know that he would have been horrified by both. But our need to equate prejudice with genocide is still alive and kicking, and Wagner the monster makes better copy than Wagner the man, whose complexity defies our own prejudices and exposes our simple-mindedness and willful ignorance.


Very well said  That´s exactly what I meant with "overdoing". Just repeating the same things a hundred and one times doesn´t bring you anywhere. But I still have the feeling that from time to time you should talk about Wagner´s antisemitism. Then I agree with you: a little more profoundness is needed.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> The trouble is, there would be nothing new to be said about Wagner's antisemitism or its presence/absence in his operas if misconceptions, distortions and fake history were not still being manufactured by academics and others with axes to grind, and then automatically and constantly regurgitated in the popular media as if they were settled truth. We could indeed move on, as Barbebleu suggests, if political correctness and sensationalism could be forced to yield to sound scholarship. As it is, the falsehoods and bizarre theories have been repeated so often that people who know nothing actual about Wagner and have never heard a bar of his music think of him as the fountainhead of Nazi master-race ideology and of _Gotterdammerung_ as a prediction of the Holocaust. Those who do know him know that he would have been horrified by both. But our need to equate prejudice with genocide is still alive and kicking, and Wagner the monster makes better copy than Wagner the man, whose complexity defies our own prejudices and exposes our simple-mindedness and willful ignorance.


Some day, sir, the Pax Americana and all who promote sensationalism and fake history at the cost of real history, art and beauty will go down in flames - and there is nothing I expect more than this day. And then we will be free to talk about Wagner on his own merits.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Some day, sir, the Pax Americana and all who promote sensationalism and fake history at the cost of real history, art and beauty will go down in flames - and there is nothing I expect more than this day. And then we will be free to talk about Wagner on his own merits.


I was talking about widespread and persistent misperceptions of Wagner and his work. The distortions and sensationalism around Wagner began in his lifetime, and are being perpetuated by his own fractured and guilt-ridden family, as they've been since that rabid racist Cosima (whose antisemitism outdid Wagner's own) took the reins at Bayreuth and her daughter-in-law went head over heels for Der Fuehrer.

Dare I ask what is this "Pax Americana," and how it's preventing "us" from talking about Wagner? Is this another cheap slap at America and Americans? Don't we have enough to answer for in Donald Trump? Are we now responsible for incorrect views of composers too?

I'm insisting upon talking about Wagner on his own merits, and I'm - surprise! - American. It isn't exactly gratifying when someone responds by making apocalyptic predictions about my country. Wagner hoped that ultimately the Jews he so resented would be assimilated into German culture, not that they would "go down in flames." Your wish for his detractors seems less charitable, and might even tend to feed their prejudices.

I suggest that we humans, of all nationalities, simply try to correct falsehood where we find it, talk enthusiastically about the composer whose work we love, and leave images of the Holocaust in our shameful past.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Some day, sir, the Pax Americana and all who promote sensationalism and fake history at the cost of real history, art and beauty will go down in flames - and there is nothing I expect more than this day. And then we will be free to talk about Wagner on his own merits.


I am not sure that if Pax Americana goes down _in flames_ we will still be able to discuss opera on this planet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ginger said:


> Very well said  That´s exactly what I meant with "overdoing". Just repeating the same things a hundred and one times doesn´t bring you anywhere. But I still have the feeling that* from time to time you should talk about Wagner´s antisemitism.* Then I agree with you:* a little more profoundness is needed.*


A _lot_ more profoundness is needed - and a lot more sound scholarship, and a lot more critical thinking, and a lot more honesty. It is almost impossible to find contemporary discussions of Wagner's works, or even casual references to him, which do not raise the subject of his prejudice against Jews - and then, as like as not, embark on witch hunts through the libretti and scores of his operas, looking for evidence of proto-Nazi contamination. The vampires of pseudo-scholarship have never found any bodies they can identify with certainty, but that has never dulled their thirst for blood.

Talk about it _from time to time?_ It is talked about _all_ the time! Just start googling Wagner and read at random. What does it mean? And what is the relevance of a great composer's personal biases for us, as lovers of his art? In an antisemitic culture, he was anything but unusual. What is different in his case is that he was the greatest and most famous musical genius of his time, and that Hitler adopted him as a spiritual forerunner (largely by not understanding him) and made Bayreuth into the unofficial party headquarters and the Wagner family into his own family. Wagner, of course, had been in his grave for nearly half a century and had nothing to say about it.

Do not expect me to join the vampires and start searching for proof that Beckmesser and Alberich are Jews. I will speak on this subject only when others speak irresponsibly. But stay tuned. It's happened before, and it's bound to happen again.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I was talking about widespread and persistent misperceptions of Wagner and his work. The distortions and sensationalism around Wagner began in his lifetime, and are being perpetuated by his own fractured and guilt-ridden family, as they've been since that rabid racist Cosima (whose antisemitism outdid Wagner's own) took the reins at Bayreuth and her daughter-in-law went head over heels for Der Fuehrer.
> 
> Dare I ask what is this "Pax Americana," and how it's preventing "us" from talking about Wagner? Is this another cheap slap at America and Americans? Don't we have enough to answer for in Donald Trump? Are we now responsible for incorrect views of composers too?
> 
> ...


I admit, "going down in flames" was a too strong expression, and I apologize for using it. I do believe, however, that the inability of those in Bayreuth to take Wagner on his own merits has at least something to do with having been told repeatedly for the last 70 years about how their culture is somehow irredeemably tainted, and how they cannot be trusted to the extent where the US has to keep a massive military presence in Germany. Maybe you would like to leave images of the Holocaust in the past, but your country's leadership still decides its policies towards Germany on the basis of these images. And this has nothing to do with Trump.

The Pax Americana, the world dominated by the United States, is the sum total of all things, ideas and influences that make up the modern American culture and are being aggressively marketed to the whole world. It is the sum total of all things shallow, fake, superficial, militantly ignorant and tailored to the lowest common denominator. And it is not confined to the US borders: if you are, say, listening to gangsta rap in Hong Kong or watching the latest reality show in Italy - you are participating in Pax Americana. I actually took that term from a book on German cultural history, where the term "Pax Germanica" referred to the realm of all German things and ideas - again not confined to the country's borders.

I know you are American. However, I also remember you saying in another post that you feel like you are not a part of the society that you belong to, and still elsewhere that your neighbors seem more weird to you than the characters of Wagnerian myth. And you are an older man, part of a generation that still valued knowledge for its own sake, and art, and beauty. People of that sort are a tiny minority nowadays, almost a vanishing species. I anticipate my own old age being very, very lonely, with nobody left to talk about classical music or other things I love.

That Wagner was a more charitable man than I am is no surprise to me - he is the author of Parsifal after all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I admit, "going down in flames" was a too strong expression, and I apologize for using it. I do believe, however, that the inability of those in Bayreuth to take Wagner on his own merits has at least something to do with having been told repeatedly for the last 70 years about how their culture is somehow irredeemably tainted, and how they cannot be trusted to the extent where the US has to keep a massive military presence in Germany. Maybe you would like to leave images of the Holocaust in the past, but your country's leadership still decides its policies towards Germany on the basis of these images. And this has nothing to do with Trump.
> 
> The Pax Americana, the world dominated by the United States, is the sum total of all things, ideas and influences that make up the modern American culture and are being aggressively marketed to the whole world. It is the sum total of all things shallow, fake, superficial, militantly ignorant and tailored to the lowest common denominator. And it is not confined to the US borders: if you are, say, listening to gangsta rap in Hong Kong or watching the latest reality show in Italy - you are participating in Pax Americana. I actually took that term from a book on German cultural history, where the term "Pax Germanica" referred to the realm of all German things and ideas - again not confined to the country's borders.
> 
> ...


Hyperbole (diminutive "hype") is characteristic of American culture. America likes to exaggerate its virtues. You like to exaggerate its flaws ("the sum total of..."). I think you're more American than I am. Perhaps it takes a real American to resent one's country so bitterly.

Americans are not all represented by the pop culture machine. This country's cultural heritage contains much that is beautiful and noble. The trouble is, America was an adolescent when the culture of the West was already old and poised for decline. The Old World has produced magnificent things, and to its credit it tries to preserve them, but what's past is past. Ugliness and depravity in Western culture did not originate on these young shores, and your beloved Germany has produced plenty of it with no influence from us. I would argue that the influence goes just as much the other way: for example, the low point in American classical music, for me, was the domination of our music academy by serialism in the mid-20th century, resulting in untold numbers of young musicians wasting their talents writing stuff that no one can bear to listen to. But think: where did that sort of music originate? In the culture that also gave us the frigid blockiness of Bauhaus, the psychosexual obsessions of Freud, and the "master race." Meanwhile America was producing the Romantic beauty of Frank LLoyd Wright and Aaron Copland. I don't see much that's inspiring coming out of Germany - or anywhere else - today. And it isn't America's military presence or reality TV that has turned Bayreuth into a theater of the absurd. Regietheater is not an American invention, and it's only now that the Met is beginning to succumb to the infection of Eurotrash.

I am no fan of American popular culture or the military-industrial complex. I'm an old codger whose heart lies largely with things created before I was born. I'm just grateful that some of those things were created right here, on these shores, when some portion of the planet was still young and looked forward to a bright future. If the shallower cultural trends of modern America have been embraced by your beloved Old World, it's because that Old World's day has come and gone and it needs a blood transfusion. And if Germany still feels guilt for the world-shaking atrocities of its recent history, it will not do to blame America. We have our own atrocities to flagellate ourselves for, thank you, and Germany is now, to most Americans, just another country. When a man, or a country, grows up, he stops looking for others to blame for who he is. Germany is long since grown up and doesn't need bitter American expatriates to excuse its cultural decadence.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck, you have guessed wrongly: I am not an American expatriate and have never been one. I have lived in the United States for a total of less than a single year, and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time. I also had an entirely different set of values and priorities back then - Pax Americana all the way. But it has never been my country. And the place that is my own country - that one I do not resent, even if I expect to leave it soon for my beloved Germany. I guess I can take it as a compliment to my English, if you have mistaken me for a bitter American expatriate. 

And I agree, there are parts of American culture that are beautiful and noble. I have grown up with Mark Twain and with the nature stories of Jack London, and fell in love with the poetry of Walt Whitman some time later. But they are also part of the past that is long gone and will not return.

And anyway, all of this has nothing to do with Bayreuth...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Woodduck, you have guessed wrongly: I am not an American expatriate and have never been one. I have lived in the United States for a total of less than a single year, and thoroughly enjoyed it at the time. I also had an entirely different set of values and priorities back then - Pax Americana all the way. But it has never been my country. And the place that is my own country - that one I do not resent, even if I expect to leave it soon for my beloved Germany. I guess I can take it as a compliment to my English, if you have mistaken me for a bitter American expatriate.
> 
> And I agree, there are parts of American culture that are beautiful and noble. I have grown up with Mark Twain and with the nature stories of Jack London, and fell in love with the poetry of Walt Whitman some time later. But they are also part of the past that is long gone and will not return.
> 
> And anyway, all of this has nothing to do with Bayreuth...


I'm sorry to have assumed you were an American. Yes, it must be your excellent English.

The modern world is a hard place. Let's just hope that America, Germany, and Wagner - the real, authentic Wagner - revive and survive despite Trump, neo-Nazis, regietheater, Islamoterror, and rising seas.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> The modern world is a hard place. Let's just hope that America, Germany, and Wagner - the real, authentic Wagner - revive and survive despite Trump, neo-Nazis, regietheater, Islamoterror, and rising seas.


I can totally agree with that :cheers:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Dare I ask what is this "Pax Americana,"


its what sabotages the culture of other countries.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

The decline of culture and the arts can not be laid at the feet of any countries, cultures, or ethnicities (German-Americans are the largest ethnic group in the US by the way) such talk ceased to be relevant post WWII. Art has been commercialized, same as everything else. Forget about countries. We don't have America, Germany, China, and Saudi Arabia, we have ExxonMobil, Daimler, Sinopec, and Saudi Aramco. Apple, Siemens, Alibaba, and Saudi Telecom. Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, HSBC, and Al Rajhi. Talk about countries perpetuates the news and media conglomerates, and that's about the only purpose governments serve.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Couchie said:


> Art has been commercialized,


if only that, it would be half a problem. art is being politicised.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> if only that, it would be half a problem. art is being politicised.


That is not at all new. Politically-minded and politically-charged works have been a thing for at least 2400 years. The earliest extant plays, such as the _Orestia_ by Aeschylus were all but explicitly about social, cultural, and political changes. And if that's not political enough to count, most of the plays of Aristophanes were overtly political, calling for the end of the Peloponnesian War, etc., not just _Lysistrata_.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> if only that, it would be half a problem. art is being politicised.


Wagner's art has always been political. What we are increasingly seeing is that directors are abandoning the subtlety of Wagner's metaphor and substituting in their own politics and proceeding to cram them down our throats in the silliest ways they can imagine. In order to maximize press exposure, a director's production ought to be as notorious as possible. This comes back full circle to its commercialization. You will see that Trump ran his political campaign with great success on the same principle. It has been known since the days of Pulitzer/Hearst that a competitive media market quickly leads to pandering to the lowest denominator and an erosion of integrity and quality with disastrous impact on society as anti-intellectualism snowballs due to a lack of intellectual stimulation. The rise of real-time bite-sized "social media" has exacerbated this trend to the point that western society flirts with its own ruination.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I was lucky to visit Bayreuth for the first time this year to see the Ring. The production had it's good and bad points. The main problem, particularly in Rheingold was too much video imagery. I also never really saw the point of Castrof's dramaturge being there all the time. 

Musically it was very strong with Catherine Foster as Brünnhilde and John Lundgren as Wotan standing out.

Janowski's conducting was quick but on the whole very good.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> Politically-minded and politically-charged works have been a thing for at least 2400 years.





Couchie said:


> Wagner's art has always been political.


you guys seem to not understand what 'politicised' means.

i'm well aware that art in itself is ideology, while what many thought to be ideology is in fact brainwash.

neither the Ancient Greeks or Wagner had any centralised policy to impose a political agenda worldwide.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Couchie said:


> What we are increasingly seeing is that directors are abandoning the subtlety of Wagner's metaphor and substituting in their own politics and proceeding to cram them down our throats in the silliest ways they can imagine.


they do it on purpose, to inflict as much harm on Wagner heritage as possible, they have orders to sabotage his works and damage the message these might contain.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> they do it on purpose, to inflict as much harm on Wagner heritage as possible, they have orders to sabotage his works and damage the message these might contain.


I really don't think the directors at Bayreuth have a direct order from the Department of State, CIA or even Wall Street - but sometimes it does seem that way.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> you guys seem to not understand what 'politicised' means.
> 
> i'm well aware that art in itself is ideology, while what many thought to be ideology is in fact brainwash.
> 
> neither the Ancient Greeks or Wagner had any centralised policy to impose a political agenda worldwide.


There's no such thing now, either.



Zhdanov said:


> they do it on purpose, to inflict as much harm on Wagner heritage as possible, they have orders to sabotage his works and damage the message these might contain.


It is, by and large, about theater. And no one has any orders.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> There's no such thing now, either.


ever heard of Multiculturalism?



mountmccabe said:


> It is, by and large, about theater. And no one has any orders.


pretty much everyone does.

you are not allowed to stage a Wagner opera in best & normal way, only in a corrupted form.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> you guys seem to not understand what 'politicised' means.
> 
> i'm well aware that art in itself is ideology, while what many thought to be ideology is in fact brainwash.
> 
> neither the Ancient Greeks or Wagner had any centralised policy to impose a political agenda worldwide.


There is no centralized political policy dictating that Wagner's works be performed in bizarre ways. This is obvious for several reasons. Regietheater exists worldwide, and no political regime has that wide a reach. Regietheater's manifestations are too varied, complex, and ideolgically inconsistent to be indicators of any political idea. Political ideas imposed by force are limited by the ignorance and stupidity of bureaucrats and almost invariably move art in the direction of simplistic conservatism, not confusing complexity and radicalness.

The attempt to be different at all costs is basically a cultural phenomenon, not a political one.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I have to say that this production, while irritating at times, is intriguing and some of the ideas do come across pretty well. Rheingold is very well sung and it's far from the worst thing I've ever watched. I anticipate further head-scratching from Walkure. But at the end of the day it's still Wagner and the music transcends even the most horrific of productions. I know, it does sound as if I've gone over to the dark side, but short of a real time machine this is where Bayreuth is and I suppose it's a case of "be there or be square".


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> some of the ideas do come across pretty well.


Yesterday I listened to a radio interview with year's conductor Marek Janowski and he said the same, that some of Wagner's ideas were very present in this production. He has not conducted a staged opera for about 20 years because he disapproves of modern Regietheater. He made the exception for Bayreuth this year because of the famous special acoustics there. He says his approach now is to not care about what happens on stage as long as he can see the singers. 

I haven't seen this Ring but from what I have read Siegfried is the most disturbing part, production-wise, so be prepared.  I've heard excerpts of Walküre and Götterdämmerung and they were quite exciting with forward, transparent conducting and a fine Brünnhilde from Foster.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2016)

Who specifically gives these orders? I'm intrigued.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

This thread clearly is on the way to Helheim.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

interestedin said:


> I haven't seen this Ring but from what I have read Siegfried is the most disturbing part, production-wise.


>> SPOILER ALERT <<

Not particularly disturbing, unless you count Fafner being mown down by an AK47; Siegfried copulating with the Woodbird; Wotan being fellated by Erda (rarely did "Hinab denn, Erda" mean so much!); the stage being invaded by crocodiles, one of whom devours said Woodbird; the whole love duet being crowned by Brünnhilde and Siegfried poking an umbrella into another crocodile's mouth... well, that's one way to "laugh at death", I suppose.

(It's all there in the score, if you look carefully enough.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

interestedin said:


> Yesterday I listened to a radio interview with year's conductor Marek Janowski and he said the same, that some of Wagner's ideas were very present in this production.* He has not conducted a staged opera for about 20 years because he disapproves of modern Regietheater. He made the exception for Bayreuth this year because of the famous special acoustics there. He says his approach now is to not care about what happens on stage as long as he can see the singers.*
> 
> I haven't seen this Ring but from what I have read Siegfried is the most disturbing part, production-wise, so be prepared.  I've heard excerpts of Walküre and Götterdämmerung and they were quite exciting with forward, transparent conducting and a fine Brünnhilde from Foster.


So Janowski has caved. He's either hard up for work or he's a bloody turncoat. Fie on him.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Several posts were deleted due to political content (and replies to those posts). This thread is about Bayreuth 2016. Please keep comments focused on Bayreuth 2016, Wagner's operas, and other related topics.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^^^^Thank you.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

mmsbls said:


> Several posts were deleted due to political content (and replies to those posts). This thread is about Bayreuth 2016. Please keep comments focused on Bayreuth 2016, Wagner's operas, and other related topics[./COLOR]




Good catch mmsbls.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

interestedin said:


> Yesterday I listened to a radio interview with year's conductor Marek Janowski and he said the same, that some of Wagner's ideas were very present in this production. He has not conducted a staged opera for about 20 years because he disapproves of modern Regietheater. He made the exception for Bayreuth this year because of the famous special acoustics there. He says his approach now is to not care about what happens on stage as long as he can see the singers.
> 
> I haven't seen this Ring but from what I have read Siegfried is the most disturbing part, production-wise, so be prepared.  I've heard excerpts of Walküre and Götterdämmerung and they were quite exciting with forward, transparent conducting and a fine Brünnhilde from Foster.


The booing at the end of Siegfried was the most intense I've ever witnessed and was even a little scared. The third act is indeed probably the stupidest travesty ever to appear on the Bayreuth stage. I would advise against our traditionalists here from ever watching it because you haven't seen how atrocious Eurotrash can get until you've seen Castorf's 3rd Act of Siegfried. Ignorance is bliss in this case.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> So Janowski has caved. He's either hard up for work or he's a bloody turncoat. Fie on him.


Seems like an overreaction. Janowski is one of the finest Wagnerians around today and it'd be a shame if he were so inflexible as to never get him doing Bayreuth, and it's hardly realistic to expect that Bayreuth would put on a concert performance for the Ring.

I've listened to (but not watched) the Walkure broadcast from this year so far. Very good, and well worth Janowski allowing some flexibility in his anti-regie stance.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Is there a significant political action in Germany to strip Bayreuth of its public funding on condition of replacing the garbage management putting on these awful productions? I'm not the biggest fan of the USA perhaps but Americans for instance would never stand for the public sponsored desecration of their own cultural institutions and heritage.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Seems like an overreaction. Janowski is one of the finest Wagnerians around today and it'd be a shame if he were so inflexible as to never get him doing Bayreuth, and it's hardly realistic to expect that Bayreuth would put on a concert performance for the Ring.
> 
> I've listened to (but not watched) the Walkure broadcast from this year so far. Very good, and well worth Janowski allowing some flexibility in his anti-regie stance.


Because you've heard it and not seen it, you've experienced it as a concert performance. Nice that it sounded good, but that's only half the show.

Given the current treatment of Wagner at Bayreuth, anyone who consents to be associated with it should be censured. There may be no end to this garbage until the only musicians they can find are as unlistenable as the stagings are unwatchable and the management is unforgiveable.

I approve of Couchie's suggestion of withdrawing state funding. Let's see if Bayreuth can support itself on these freak shows.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Because you've heard it and not seen it, you've experienced it as a concert performance. Nice that it sounded good, but that's only half the show.
> 
> Given the current treatment of Wagner at Bayreuth, anyone who consents to be associated with it should be censured. There may be no end to this garbage until the only musicians they can find are as unlistenable as the stagings are unwatchable and the management is unforgiveable.
> 
> I approve of Couchie's suggestion of withdrawing state funding. Let's see if Bayreuth can support itself on these freak shows.


Well, I listened to it instead of watching it just b/c I couldn't find a link to a video broadcast, only to audio broadcasts. I'd love to watch the Castorf myself. It sounds fairly silly but potentially also quite fun to look at. The Bayreuth crowd vociferously boo'ed the production the first year it was put on, but it's been getting mostly cheers lately, so I gather the production has won the crowd over.

ETA: It also occurs to me that if you like concert performances and dislike regie, there's a really easy solution.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> Well, I listened to it instead of watching it just b/c I couldn't find a link to a video broadcast, only to audio broadcasts. I'd love to watch the Castorf myself. It sounds fairly silly but potentially also quite fun to look at. The Bayreuth crowd vociferously boo'ed the production the first year it was put on, but it's been getting mostly cheers lately, so I gather the production has won the crowd over.


Part of the idea of the "Werkstatt Bayreuth" is that productions are refined over the 7 or so years in which they are performed. To be blunt about it, you start with a very stupid notorious production and make it incrementally more palatable each year. Purportedly the now-"celebrated" Centennial Ring preserved on film towards the end of its life is much better than it was in the premier year. Perhaps the Castorf stage direction has been improved since 2013, or when I saw it, in 2014. With luck the stupidest elements I witnessed will be eliminated by the time it is filmed.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Because you've heard it and not seen it, you've experienced it as a concert performance. Nice that it sounded good, but that's only half the show.
> 
> Given the current treatment of Wagner at Bayreuth, anyone who consents to be associated with it should be censured. There may be no end to this garbage until the only musicians they can find are as unlistenable as the stagings are unwatchable and the management is unforgiveable.
> 
> I approve of Couchie's suggestion of withdrawing state funding. Let's see if Bayreuth can support itself on these freak shows.


Normally I find myself in agreement with a great deal of your comments Duck but I'm afraid I can't agree with the idea of withdrawing state funding from Bayreuth simply because a proportion of the viewing audience don't like what they are seeing. Culture should never be at the mercy of government. The continual dwindling of money to the arts in Scotland has pretty well put Scottish Opera to the sword and much the same in England at the E.N.O. If we stop funding the arts, which, let's face it, has not been part of really popular culture for many years, we will end up with no new productions of anything, least of all opera which, with the best will in the world, is never going to be self-sufficient. The idea of any government being the arbiters of taste is repugnant anyway.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Barbebleu said:


> ...The idea of any government being the arbiters of taste is repugnant anyway.


Isn't government already being an arbiter of taste by subsidizing an art form that can't sustain itself? It's saying in effect, "I have decided you will spend your money on this rather than something you would otherwise prefer."


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Isn't government already being an arbiter of taste by subsidizing an art form that can't sustain itself? It's saying in effect, "I have decided you will spend your money on this rather than something you would otherwise prefer."


Yep, I think that applies to classical music.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I'd rather they spent it on the arts than on continually bailing out failing banks or funding obsolete defence systems and paying mendacious politicians but that's another thread altogether.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Normally I find myself in agreement with a great deal of your comments Duck but I'm afraid I can't agree with the idea of withdrawing state funding from Bayreuth simply because a proportion of the viewing audience don't like what they are seeing. Culture should never be at the mercy of government. The continual dwindling of money to the arts in Scotland has pretty well put Scottish Opera to the sword and much the same in England at the E.N.O. If we stop funding the arts, which, let's face it, has not been part of really popular culture for many years, we will end up with no new productions of anything, least of all opera which, with the best will in the world, is never going to be self-sufficient. The idea of any government being the arbiters of taste is repugnant anyway.


I'm not recommending withdrawing funding because productions are disliked. I'm recommending withdrawing it because they vandalize great works of art and because they are inexcusable adolescent crap. There must be some reason, taste, and respect somewhere in this crumbling culture.

OK, no, there musn't. Can't believe I even said that. I'm old enough to know better, and to be dead before anything changes. If it ever does.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.


Oui... oui... '''''''''''


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bayreuth is not merely an opera production company but also an important historical site, and a vital cultural link to what is probably Germany's chief contribution to the world's art, the German Romanticism spanning from Beethoven to Schoenberg. Walking the streets of Bayreuth, cutely named after people and things significant to Wagner's art and life, is liking taking a stroll through 19th century Germany. Everything is well-preserved, including Wahnfried and the Festspielhaus. Everything that is except the only thing that really matters, Wagner's art itself. The irony of Bayreuth is that deviating from the original genius of "the master" is the excuse long given by the management for why the Festspielhaus cannot be upgraded to have a decent HVAC system or more comfortable seating. And yet the works themselves are trashed to the point of being unrecognizable, and insult the people most dedicated to his works, the people willing to wait 10 years to obtain tickets and spend thousands of Euros to make the pilgrimage. If you want to "innovate", re-invent and contemporize Wagner, there are several opera companies in Berlin where that sort of thing would be appropriate, as contemporary history, innovation, and re-invention is a core part of that city's identity. In Bayreuth, it makes no sense. Abandon "Werkstatt Bayreuth" and turn it into a museum already! Vienna performs historically faithful experiences of Mozart symphonies without fog machines and lasers, get them the hell out of Bayreuth!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie, who is the actual legal owner of the Festspielhaus?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Couchie, who is the actual legal owner of the Festspielhaus?


The Richard Wagner Foundation, which I believe is jointly owned by the family, municipal, state, and federal governments.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks. I was curious who had control over the operating philosophies, whether it was a not-for-profit business, and whether public subsidies (from taxes I assume) made sense.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Thanks. I was curious who had control over the operating philosophies, whether it was a not-for-profit business, and whether public subsidies (from taxes I assume) made sense.


It's not merely tax subsidized. Only about 60% of the funding is private (tickets and donations) while the rest of the budget is directly funded by the city, state, and federal governments contributing 1/3 each of the shortfall. The opening night is largely a political gala, with Merkel usually in attendance.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> I'd love to watch the Castorf myself. It sounds fairly silly but potentially also quite fun to look at.


fun? what fun? suppose i discover fun in watching your mother's grave desecrated?



howlingfantods said:


> The Bayreuth crowd vociferously boo'ed the production the first year it was put on, but it's been getting mostly cheers lately, so I gather the production has won the crowd over.


don't be naive, the crowd has been changed for a claque, hence 'won over' - its a long time practice.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> I can't agree with the idea of withdrawing state funding from Bayreuth simply because a proportion of the viewing audience don't like what they are seeing.


its not a matter of what audience likes or not. Wagner wrote the operas, he meant they sound and look decently, not like a circus with clowns, in case you didn't know.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> It's not merely tax subsidized. Only about 60% of the funding is private (tickets and donations) while the rest of the budget is directly funded by the city, state, and federal governments contributing 1/3 each of the shortfall. The opening night is largely a political gala, with Merkel usually in attendance.


I'd say that if private parties aren't profiting, then tax expenditures are a public policy issue. You or I might disagree on the decision to fund this particular venture, of course. Such direct government subsidies for the arts are rare in my country, but other polities may think much differently.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I'd say that if private parties aren't profiting, then tax expenditures are a public policy issue. You or I might disagree on the decision to fund this particular venture, of course. Such direct government subsidies for the arts are rare in my country, but other polities may think much differently.


My issue is not really with the public funding, but how Bayreuth is treated. The hill should be declared a World Heritage Site and preserved accordingly (ironically, the nearby Margravial Opera House in Bayreuth, which may be prettier but is far less significant than the Festspielhaus to history, is declared as such), and the festival itself should also be preserved and presented as an opportunity for historical insight into the original production of Wagnerian opera per the original set designs and stage instructions (making it effectively a museum, not a place to "experiment"). Every other existent opera company is free to "experiment" if they so desire. It's hardly going to be the end of Nazi-themed Tannhausers.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, that's an area where I have no strong opinions. I don't even care much for Wagner's operas, however presented! But it's an interesting issue nonetheless.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The only way you will get rid of idiotic productions is when the audience wakes up and stops turning out for these travesties and orchestras and singers refuse to perform them. However, given the need to earn a living during the festival season the latter is unlikely to happen. The green hill has ever been a place of controversy and presumably always will until its eventual demise.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> its not a matter of what audience likes or not. Wagner wrote the operas, he meant they sound and look decently, not like a circus with clowns, in case you didn't know.


I know perfectly well thank you. And as a member of the paying public, because these are, after all, public performances, it is surely a matter of what we do, or do not, like.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> The only way you will get rid of idiotic productions is when the audience wakes up and stops turning out for these travesties and orchestras and singers refuse to perform them.


people are sheeple, this has been proven many times; all should be handled by authorities, like back in Wagner days.



Barbebleu said:


> And as a member of the paying public, because these are, after all, public performances, it is surely a matter of what we do, or do not, like.


not in relation to classical music, that should be performed as designed by the composer; you are not in a shop here to choose.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> people are sheeple, this has been proven many times; all should be handled by authorities, like back in Wagner days.
> 
> not in relation to classical music, that should be performed as designed by the composer; you are not in a shop here to choose.


I think we should agree to differ on this topic I think. Governments, in the main, should keep their hands off the arts. The last time a government seriously interfered with what they thought was "art" about 75 years ago,it didn't turn out too well for the vast majority of the artists they disliked.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> not in relation to classical music, that should be performed as designed by the composer; you are not in a shop here to choose.


But you are there to choose? Who are you to say that Wagner *should* be performed in one particular way (strictly following a dead man's instructions of 150 years ago?) That's just another personal preference.

So why should Bayreuth abandon all modern productions? To honour the composer? It's art, it's not religion. And impossible anyway. We can't tell if Wagner would approve of his works being performed in this or that way today. He doesn't live today.

To increase ticket sales? There is no evidence this would help. There are lots of experienced Wagner/opera enthusiasts who have been seeing and enjoying operas for decades and who like modern regietheater. Who would be bored to death if they were forced to see the exact same moves on stages for 40 years. It's not just crazy stage directors wasting public subsidies for themselves or for the purpose of ridiculing the work. A sword and a dragon would attract some new visitors while others wouldn't come anymore.

In my opinion Bayreuth should offer a mix of traditional and modern productions.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> I think we should agree to differ on this topic I think. Governments, in the main, should keep their hands off the arts. The last time a government seriously interfered with what they thought was "art" about 75 years ago,it didn't turn out too well for the vast majority of the artists they disliked.


Without government support, plenty of artistic endeavours would disappear over night.

http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/funding


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

interestedin said:


> Who are you to say that Wagner *should* be performed in one particular way


nobody, and i did not say Wagner should be performed in one particular way.



interestedin said:


> So why should Bayreuth abandon all modern productions? To honour the composer?


exactly, for that one reason.



interestedin said:


> We can't tell if Wagner would approve of his works being performed in this or that way today.


no, we can't, this is why it is necessary to follow the guidelines set by performances during his lifetime.



interestedin said:


> A sword and a dragon would attract some new visitors while others wouldn't come anymore.


good riddance to the latter.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> people are sheeple, this has been proven many times; all should be handled by authorities, like back in Wagner days.


Impressively demonstrating how to unite artistic conservatism to reactionary politics.

Interesting to consider whether the historical Wagner, with his political liberalism and artistic radicalism, would find your position a sympathetic one. He loved monuments and museums to his own honor but he was all about artistic progress and breaking creative rules.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I sense a danger, which frequently arises in discussions of contemporary opera productions, of setting up a dichotomy of extremes, with the vital center left out. As opposed as I am to the current nonsense and vandalism, I find the idea of performing Wagner "as he imagined it" - or, heaven forbid, as it originally looked onstage - equally absurd.

To the extent that we can read Wagner's own intentions for his theater, he intended only that it be a place for the performance of his works in a manner upholding the highest possible artistic standard. We know how bitterly he complained about the limitations of stagecraft with which he had to work - the clumsy machinery, inadequate lighting, and frumpy costumes; he once said that now that he had invented the invisible orchestra, he wished he could invent the invisible stage. There can be no question that his imagination far outstripped the technology of his time, and remains in some ways beyond fulfillment even today. The fact is that we don't know what he imagined in his dreams. We only know that he couldn't obtain it in reality, and that, in his day, it was not attainable.

The idea that Bayreuth should be nothing but a "museum" is a very un-Wagnerian notion. The regie people like to remind us that Wagner was an innovator, as if that justified any horrendous concept they want to inflict on his work. Well, it doesn't; but it's safe to assume that he would have appreciated both a creative approach to realizing his dramatic conceptions and the technology which would open up undreamed of possibilities of visual enchantment. Wagner was a composer and dramatist, not a visual artist. His music and text, the stories he tells through them, and the layers of meaning which they express, are the substance of his art. They constitute integral works of art and as such they are sacrosanct, and all aspects of a production should be directed toward realizing Wagner's essential vision as powerfully as possible. 

I feel sure that Wagner would want Bayreuth to be, not a museum preserving the limitations of 19th-century stagecraft and even of his own era-bound visual imagination, but a place where creative people are motivated by a real understanding of and reverence for his art. That leaves plenty of room for imaginative direction, acting, and visual design which would honor Wagner and keep modern audiences absorbed. Those who wouldn't be satisfied with this are people who don't care for Wagner, or whose interest in him does not motivate them to understand what he's about. They will find plenty of opportunities elsewhere. They should not be managing his own theater or putting freakish entertainments and postmodern commentaries on his stage.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> *I feel sure that Wagner would want Bayreuth to be, not a museum preserving the limitations of 19th-century stagecraft and even of his own era-bound visual imagination*,* but a place where creative people are motivated by a real understanding of and reverence for his art*. That leaves plenty of room for imaginative direction, acting, and visual design which would honor Wagner and keep modern audiences absorbed. Those who wouldn't be satisfied with this are people who don't care for Wagner, or whose interest in him does not motivate them to understand what he's about. They will find plenty of opportunities elsewhere. They should not be managing his own theater or putting freakish entertainments and postmodern commentaries on his stage.


What better example of that view than the Wagner grandchildren's inspired modern productions during the 1950s "new Bayreuth" seasons, the stagecraft breaks new visual ground yet in complete service and respect to original universal themes and music.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> What better example of that view than the Wagner grandchildren's inspired modern productions during the 1950s "new Bayreuth" seasons, the stagecraft breaks new visual ground yet in complete service and respect to original universal themes and music.


The conservatives of that age hated New Bayreuth as much as the conservatives of this age hate regie.

Also an interesting suggestion since much of the animating incentive for the abstracted New Bayreuth productions was to create aesthetic distance from traditionalist productions associated with the pageantry of the Nazi-era performances. Of course, there is no similar extra-artistic goals being served by current Bayreuth leadership.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

DarkAngel said:


> modern productions during the 1950s "new Bayreuth" seasons, the stagecraft breaks new visual ground *yet in complete service and respect to original universal themes and music.*


That's what you say today. But remember - it was in the 50's when because of these productions the tradition of booing was first established in Bayreuth. They were very controversial and Wieland Wagner was often accused of betraying, abandoning his grandfather's work. In 1953 a German 'society for the faithful rendition of Richard Wagner's works' ("Vereinigung für die werktreue Wiedergabe der Dramen Richard Wagners") was founded to destroy Wieland's work and to restore the "genuine" Wagner. They didn't succeed.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Bavarian radio has Rheingold and Walküre of this year's Ring online now (audio only):

https://www.br-klassik.de/programm/radio/ausstrahlung-744288.html

https://www.br-klassik.de/programm/radio/ausstrahlung-755808.html


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

interestedin said:


> That's what you say today. But remember - it was in the 50's when because of these productions the tradition of booing was first established in Bayreuth. They were very controversial and Wieland Wagner was often accused of betraying, abandoning his grandfather's work. In 1953 a German 'society for the faithful rendition of Richard Wagner's works' ("Vereinigung für die werktreue Wiedergabe der Dramen Richard Wagners") was founded to destroy Wieland's work and to restore the "genuine" Wagner. They didn't succeed.


It seems that honoring the artists work, and innovating the production of such works, is a fine balance and a slippery slope. The Wagner productions of the '50s (from what I can gather in my limited experience) never seemed to lose sight of the art itself. It didn't seem to be coming from a place of "shock value" or imposing the productionists own agendas.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

interestedin said:


> That's what you say today. But remember - it was in the 50's when because of these productions the tradition of booing was first established in Bayreuth. They were very controversial and Wieland Wagner was often accused of betraying, abandoning his grandfather's work. In 1953 a German 'society for the faithful rendition of Richard Wagner's works' ("Vereinigung für die werktreue Wiedergabe der Dramen Richard Wagners") was founded to destroy Wieland's work and to restore the "genuine" Wagner. They didn't succeed.


Not to mention these "innovations" in the 50's were born of necessity, a new infamy to displace the infamy of the pre-WWII Bayreuth with its Nazi connections. The world's opera houses had also by then caught up and surpassed Bayreuth in term of production quality and the Wagners were accused of not being able to differentiate Bayreuth enough to attract top singing and conducting talent.

We find ourselves in that exact same predicament again, Bayreuth might have lead the Regie "innovation" in previous decades but the world's opera houses have caught up and are again staging more "interesting" productions and attracting top talent over Bayreuth. When was the last time W. Meier was on the Bayreuth stage? Matti Salminen? René Pape? Stemme and Kaufmann both terminated their appearances there after a couple of seasons rather than stay on for the full run of their productions.

By "museum" I don't mean pulling out the moth-eaten 19th century sets or even a recreation of them, only a return to a faithful adaptation Wagner's stage directions and sets which are all right there on the pages of the score along with the libretto and music. It's a means by with Bayreuth can again differentiate itself to stand out from the nonsense appearing in every other opera house in Europe. Also, you really can only appreciate the "innovations" of contemporary directors when you have seen the traditional baseline it deviates from. There should be a place to preserve that tradition, and it's at Bayreuth, where everything else Wagner is carefully preserved. The idea that innovation is "necessary" because audiences will get bored seems to forfeit the idea the the opera audience is a static and aging population. I would hope for the survival of the form that new, young, opera goers are being added to the population with every passing year eager to see these works as Wagner intended them before moving on to "innovative" re-interpretations.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

The minimal staging post-war was also a necessity because they didn't have the money for anything more elaborate. At least then they were trying to live within their means. The only way I will see the Ring of my imagination is if Peter Jackson decides to make four films using live actors, dubbed voices and the resources of CGI for the effects that Wagner imagined.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> As opposed as I am to the current nonsense and vandalism, I find the idea of performing Wagner "as he imagined it" - or, heaven forbid, as it originally looked onstage - equally absurd.


to stage it how imagined by W is *not absurd*; so if you think it is, then you got it all wrong completely and cannot consider yourself an opera fan.



Woodduck said:


> We know how bitterly he complained about the limitations of stagecraft with which he had to work - the clumsy machinery, inadequate lighting, and frumpy costumes;


that is completely different matter; provide his opera productions with Hollywood effects all you want, but leave alone the *message* he intended to be conveyed with his works.



Woodduck said:


> The idea that Bayreuth should be nothing but a "museum" is a very un-Wagnerian notion.


so he would endorse B turned into a circus?


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> provide his opera productions with Hollywood effects all you want, but leave alone the *message* he intended to be conveyed with his works.


So what is the message he intended to be conveyed? The era in which the opera was supposed to take place and the artifacts he chose to put on stage? Or rather something beyond those symbols which might be conveyed by other times & symbols? You surely don't mean that the potion, the armor or the sword is the message!


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Couchie said:


> When was the last time W. Meier was on the Bayreuth stage? Matti Salminen? René Pape? Stemme and Kaufmann both terminated their appearances there after a couple of seasons rather than stay on for the full run of their productions.


Netrebko just announced in an interview that she will _probably_ not be singing Elsa in Bayreuth. She said her brain was to Russian for the text which she couldn't memorize. She admitted she had to use a teleprompter for her Elsa in Dresden this years.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

interestedin said:


> But you are there to choose? Who are you to say that Wagner *should* be performed in one particular way (strictly following a dead man's instructions of 150 years ago?) That's just another personal preference.
> 
> So why should Bayreuth abandon all modern productions? To honour the composer? It's art, it's not religion. And impossible anyway. We can't tell if Wagner would approve of his works being performed in this or that way today. He doesn't live today.
> 
> ...


I believe the only criterion by which Wagner productions should be guided, is *beauty*. Wagner's music is supremely beautiful, and so is the message behind the music. The visual side should at least try to match up. Then it will not matter whether there is an actual sword, dove or dragon on the stage. Wieland Wagner's productions were beautiful in their austerity, the modern ones are not anywhere close.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Couchie said:


> It's not merely tax subsidized. Only about 60% of the funding is private (tickets and donations) while the rest of the budget is directly funded by the city, state, and federal governments contributing 1/3 each of the shortfall. The opening night is largely a political gala, *with Merkel usually in attendance*.


Just about the only thing that is good about her.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Couchie said:


> The idea that innovation is "necessary" because audiences will get bored seems to forfeit the idea the the opera audience is a static and aging population. I would hope for the survival of the form that new, young, opera goers are being added to the population with every passing year eager to see these works as Wagner intended them before moving on to "innovative" re-interpretations.


I remember that time I saw my first opera. It was in school after we had watched a traditional Carmen on an old TV in the classroom. We were all excited to see it live at the local opera house. We ended up with pregnant Carmen being beaten by José with what I remember was a baseball bat. The child survived I think. We didn't like it.

That's why I suggested staging traditional and non traditional productions, some for the bored, some for the young.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Is there a significant political action in Germany to strip Bayreuth of its public funding on condition of replacing the garbage management putting on these awful productions? I'm not the biggest fan of the USA perhaps but Americans for instance would never stand for the public sponsored desecration of their own cultural institutions and heritage.


That is because they have pride in that heritage. The Germans have had their pride literally beaten out of them by guess who.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Bayreuth is not merely an opera production company but also an important historical site, and a vital cultural link to what is probably Germany's chief contribution to the world's art, the German Romanticism spanning from Beethoven to Schoenberg. Walking the streets of Bayreuth, cutely named after people and things significant to Wagner's art and life, is liking taking a stroll through 19th century Germany. Everything is well-preserved, including Wahnfried and the Festspielhaus. Everything that is except the only thing that really matters, Wagner's art itself. The irony of Bayreuth is that deviating from the original genius of "the master" is the excuse long given by the management for why the Festspielhaus cannot be upgraded to have a decent HVAC system or more comfortable seating. And yet the works themselves are trashed to the point of being unrecognizable, and insult the people most dedicated to his works, the people willing to wait 10 years to obtain tickets and spend thousands of Euros to make the pilgrimage. If you want to "innovate", re-invent and contemporize Wagner, there are several opera companies in Berlin where that sort of thing would be appropriate, as contemporary history, innovation, and re-invention is a core part of that city's identity. In Bayreuth, it makes no sense. Abandon "Werkstatt Bayreuth" and turn it into a museum already! Vienna performs historically faithful experiences of Mozart symphonies without fog machines and lasers, get them the hell out of Bayreuth!


I agree. That is why I have gone to Bayreuth, taken a stroll through its streets, stood at the Meister's graveside, gone on a tour of the Festspielhaus and thoroughly enjoyed myself - but will never set foot inside the Festspielhaus while one of these productions is running.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

interestedin said:


> So what is the message he intended to be conveyed?


its not a matter of 'what' but 'how': every message communicated by the composer should be delivered in an *exalted, noble and spiritual* way in the first place, even if their hi-tech or sci-fi productions, period.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Zhdanov said:


> to stage it how imagined by W is *not absurd*; so if you think it is, then you got it all wrong completely and cannot consider yourself an opera fan.
> 
> that is completely different matter; provide his opera productions with Hollywood effects all you want, but leave alone the *message* he intended to be conveyed with his works.
> 
> so he would endorse B turned into a circus?


Since you've completely misrepresented/misunderstood what I said, please read it again carefully and get back to us. Meanwhile, we can all "consider ourselves" opera fans, or anything else we wish.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> its not a matter of 'what' but 'how': every message communicated by the composer should be delivered in an *exalted, noble and spiritual* way in the first place, even if their hi-tech or sci-fi productions, period.


Jesus. Even for an opera website talking about Wagner, this conversation is uber-fuddy-duddy. I'm imagining all of you wearing bowties and carrying around copies of National Review while a giant poster of William F Buckley haughtily gazes down on you all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Jesus. Even for an opera website talking about Wagner, this conversation is uber-fuddy-duddy. I'm imagining all of you wearing bowties and carrying around copies of National Review while a giant poster of William F Buckley haughtily gazes down on you all.


As one who doesn't read the National Review, doesn't care for William F. Buckley, and would not wear any bow tie that isn't red with polka dots, I know you're not referring to me.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> Jesus. Even for an opera website talking about Wagner, this conversation is uber-fuddy-duddy. I'm imagining all of you wearing bowties and carrying around copies of National Review while a giant poster of William F Buckley haughtily gazes down on you all.


Artistic reactionaries are not always political conservatives, although it's certainly true that there are some prominent examples combining both traits.

I'm not against Regietheater as such, though a lot of the productions given that name leave me unimpressed.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

You know, I never realised the German word for garbage was Regie.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> Jesus. Even for an opera website talking about Wagner, this conversation is uber-fuddy-duddy. I'm imagining all of you wearing bowties and carrying around copies of National Review while a giant poster of William F Buckley haughtily gazes down on you all.


We Wagnerians do not read such tabloids as the National Review, only The London Review of Books has articles long and sophisticated enough to please us. And all of our posters are of Wagner himself, of course.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Just about the only thing that is good about her.


Not really. If I visited the opening night she would ruin it for me.


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## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> That is because they have pride in that heritage. The Germans have had their pride literally beaten out of them by guess who.


mmm...Okay. I wasn't aware that Germans had no pride. Nobody responsible comes to my mind, so who do you believe has literally beaten the pride out of the Germans?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Normally Mods tell us when and why they've removed posts.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Normally Mods tell us when and why they've removed posts.


I can only guess...Maybe fantasizing about the assassination of leading female politician is only acceptable if you are a presidential nominee and not in a music forum. But perhaps it was something completely different.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

interestedin said:


> I can only guess...Maybe fantasizing about the assassination of leading female politician is only acceptable if you are a presidential nominee and not in a music forum. But perhaps it was something completely different.


I think most sane people would consider it unacceptable _especially_ from a presidential nominee*...but the main reason was that politically contentious posts are not considered acceptable for general forum discussion.

* Yes, I do know whom you're referring to.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Some posts _do_ need to be removed, sometimes...

And that which a certain poster supposedly fantasized about, would not change a thing anyway, just the opposite.


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## MozartMan310 (Apr 5, 2016)

Does anyone know how to obtain the paper order form for Bayreuth? I looked on their website and did not find any download link. From what I understand, first-time ticket applicants such as myself will need to send their ticket orders by post. Thanks for help!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

MozartMan310 said:


> Does anyone know how to obtain the paper order form for Bayreuth? I looked on their website and did not find any download link. From what I understand, first-time ticket applicants such as myself will need to send their ticket orders by post.


I didn't need a postal registration, but did it all online. You can set up an account at https://ts.bayreuther-festspiele.de/en/registrierung.

When the time is right, you can go to http://ticketshop.bayreuther-festspiele.de/en to enter the "lottery" for next year's tickets. As yet, they haven't put up the order form for the 2017 Festival, but it'll probably be there in a few weeks' time - keep watching the website. The draw itself takes place in October/November I believe, and successful applicants are informed around the same time. Success isn't guaranteed, however; it took me five years before I "won" a ticket via this process, but that isn't bad considering how long it used to take.

I have had much better success with the Festival's "instant ticket" system, where tickets for a _limited_ number of operas go on sale online for one day only, usually in January/February. The exact date of the online sale will usually be announced on the Festival website later in the year. These tickets can - and do - sell out very quickly, but it can be done. At least you'll know straight away whether you've "won" a ticket or not, and a few days later they'll email you a PDF of your ticket, which you must print yourself.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

A few weeks ago in June you could still order tickets for the 2016 Ring or Tristan through Bayreuth's official online ticketshop. It will probably be the same in 2017. Seems like the times when you had to wait years are over...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

interestedin said:


> A few weeks ago in June you could still order tickets for the 2016 Ring or Tristan through Bayreuth's official online ticketshop. It will probably be the same in 2017. Seems like the times when you had to wait years are over...


Could this be a sign that people are wising up? Are we getting tired of burlesques? Fed up with directors flipping us the bird?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

How are sales at Salzburg, Aix-en-Provence, Glyndebourne, or other festivals that also have what one might call Regie productions? I hear a lot about the Met Opera's sales being down, yet they're one of the most conservative of the big houses.


One thing about Bayreuth, for a long time it seemed impossible to get tickets, so some didn't even consider it. More availability - and even late availability - and what's more, people learning about this, may open up the audience. I, myself, am more likely to go now realizing that I don't have to make plans a year in advance, get on waiting list or join all the Wagner societies to get tickets.

Something similar may be happening with San Francisco 49ers games right now; they were basically entirely sold out (except via re-sale that was all expensive), and if I wanted to go to a football game I would have gone to see the Oakland Raiders, a college game, or something else. But they recently moved stadiums and it seems like some seats have opened up. Yet until I checked just now (to fact-check what I was writing on an opera board) I didn't realize I could still just buy tickets and see a game.

I don't care about football so I'm not going to, but there are certainly football fans that are similarly in the dark about the change in availability. It will take a few years for the right people to find out, and they'll do fine.

And, really, I am thinking far more seriously about going to Bayreuth in 2017 or 2018. I couldn't put it together for this year, but it wasn't even on my radar until the summer, because it seemed impossible to get tickets.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Bayreuth a few years back was forced by the government to increase the proportion of tickets available to general public. So it's hard to know whether the greater availability in recent years is due to falling demand or just more tickets being available, probably both.

If you want my conspiracy theory, the online "instant ticket" system was created to maintain a long wait time for the traditional waiting list to obscure a very real fall in demand.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Could this be a sign that people are wising up? Are we getting tired of burlesques? Fed up with directors flipping us the bird?


Oh please, let it be so.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I wouldn't ignore the impact from recent real world events--Brexit driving the pound down against the Euro makes a trip to Bayreuth suddenly significantly more expensive for British fans, and the recent wave of terrorist events in Europe generally and Germany and Bavaria specifically also seems likely to have an impact with visitors.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> I wouldn't ignore the impact from recent real world events--Brexit driving the pound down against the Euro makes a trip to Bayreuth suddenly significantly more expensive for British fans, and the recent wave of terrorist events in Europe generally and Germany and Bavaria specifically also seems likely to have an impact with visitors.


Good point.bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I got my tickets for this year's Ring at Bayreuth in the online sale. I did want tickets for Parsifal and Tristan but was unlucky. Furthermore there appeared to virtually no returns or later sales for the individual operas as there were last year. I still also apply and have done so for 6 years, so maybe next year I maybe lucky. 

I would say that if you get the chance to go to Bayreuth then you should. If you hate the productions then close your eyes and listen to the music where you will experience the most fantastic acoustic most likely in your lifetime. It is hot and uncomfortable but it is very much worth dealing with that.

Speaking to regulars at Bayreuth, they thought that the casting was going downhill towards the end of the Wolfgang Wagner era. Bearing in mind the usual 5/6 years advance contracting, those regulars now think that the casting is generally on an upward curve.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> I wouldn't ignore the impact from recent real world events--Brexit driving the pound down against the Euro makes a trip to Bayreuth suddenly significantly more expensive for British fans, and the recent wave of terrorist events in Europe generally and Germany and Bavaria specifically also seems likely to have an impact with visitors.


Germany is still one of the safest places in the world. People are more likely to die from a car crash or from the hand of some gun nut in the USA than from a terrorist attack in Bavaria. Of course the media will not tell you that.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

jflatter said:


> Speaking to regulars at Bayreuth, they thought that the casting was going downhill towards the end of the Wolfgang Wagner era. Bearing in mind the usual 5/6 years advance contracting, those regulars now think that the casting is generally on an upward curve.


The last few years seem to be quite good--I've been listening quite a lot to Petrenko's Ring last year and I'm about halfway through Janowski this year. Seems like a much stronger cast than Thielemann's cycle from a decade ago, and maybe the equal of Barenboim's cycle.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

howlingfantods said:


> The last few years seem to be quite good--I've been listening quite a lot to Petrenko's Ring last year and I'm about halfway through Janowski this year. Seems like a much stronger cast than Thielemann's cycle from a decade ago, and maybe the equal of Barenboim's cycle.


I think that Bayreuth have picked up some seriously good singers like Foster and Lundgren who aren't that well known internationally but are up there with the best around. Lundgren's Wanderer was the finest I've heard live and I've heard Terfel and Tomlinson do it. Only Stemme is the equal of Foster as Brünnhilde IMHO currently.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> the recent wave of terrorist events in Europe generally and Germany and Bavaria specifically


hmm, stories of that sort are usually blown out of proportion; the media obviously has no respect for its readers... on the other hand, isn't this the readers fault that they are so naive and ignorant that unable to make a simple calculation & figure out the possibility of something bad happen to them because of a society's flawed security etc?


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

jflatter said:


> I think that Bayreuth have picked up some seriously good singers like Foster and Lundgren who aren't that well known internationally but are up there with the best around. Lundgren's Wanderer was the finest I've heard live and I've heard Terfel and Tomlinson do it. Only Stemme is the equal of Foster as Brünnhilde IMHO currently.


Have you heard Christine Goerke's Brünnhilde? For me she is by far the finest.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

kineno said:


> Have you heard Christine Goerke's Brünnhilde? For me she is by far the finest.


No, I have only heard her sing Elektra a couple of times and very much enjoyed her, so I suspect she would be good in the role. The fact is I think we should be optimistic that there quite a lot of good Wagner singers around at the moment.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

jflatter said:


> regulars now think that the casting is generally on an upward curve.


I'd go along with that. I just got back from Bayreuth, and the majority of the singers were superb; ditto the orchestra and conductors. Indeed, from a purely musical perspective, the standard has been excellent for the past few years. If their splendid contributions hadn't been diluted by one or two iffy stage productions, we wouldn't be too far from a "Mini Golden Age" right now.


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