# Favourite Mahler 7



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Opinion on this symphony seems divided among Mahler fans, possibly more so than any other of his symphonies. People seem to either love it or hate it.

I love it and regard it as Mahler's masterpiece (feel free to disagree). Of the 7 or 8 versions I have, the ones below are my 3 favourites and I can't choose between them. Some days I prefer one, some days another one.

Do you rate any of these more highly than the other 2 or do you prefer a completely different version altogether? Or do you just hate it? And, if so, why?


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Haven't heard Tilson Thomas, Abbado (Chicago) and Boulez are great in their own different way, that's for I prefer sometimes one, sometimes another one, as well. Very different listening experiencies.
I like a lot Bernstein (NTP) too, and Dudamel has done and interesting job with this symphony.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I love the 7th and I probably have close to 50 recordings of it.

For my money Bernstein's Sony recording from 1965 with the New York Philharmonic is unmatched. It's absolutely perfect in every way.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

A little-known, but cracking reading:


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## pierrot (Mar 26, 2012)

I have no authority to speak on the issue but I quite enjoy Tilson Thomas record with the SFS.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

realdealblues said:


> I love the 7th and I probably have close to 50 recordings of it.
> 
> For my money Bernstein's Sony recording from 1965 with the New York Philharmonic is unmatched. It's absolutely perfect in every way.
> 
> ...


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Delicious Manager said:


> A little-known, but cracking reading:
> 
> View attachment 93526


Thanks, Kondrashin is one of my favourite conductors and I didn't know that he'd made a recording of this. Will add it to the list.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Heliogabo said:


> Haven't heard Tilson Thomas, Abbado (Chicago) and Boulez are great in their own different way, that's for I prefer sometimes one, sometimes another one, as well. Very different listening experiencies.
> I like a lot Bernstein (NTP) too, and Dudamel has done and interesting job with this symphony.


Another vote for the Bernstein, which increases my resolve to give it another chance. I haven't heard the Dudamel, will try that one too. The Tilson-Thomas with the LSO is very good, if you like the Abbado (Chicago) and the Boulez, you may well like that too. In fact I got hold of it on the recommendation of another member here who rated it as his pick for this symphony in of a list of Mahler's symphonies after devoting a lifetime to his music. I'm very grateful for the recommendation, it is indeed an excellent interpretation. I still can't rank it as superior to the Abbado or the Boulez though.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

pierrot said:


> I have no authority to speak on the issue but I quite enjoy Tilson Thomas record with the SFS.


I have heard that but I think his version with the LSO is superior. Just my view though, personal taste is just that, a very personal thing.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

I like Bernstein, Kondrashin, Abbado... There's a live recording with New York Phil and Kubelik which is superb. Extremely slow tempo, but absolutely interesting. Unfortunately I don't have it, only listened to it on a radio programme.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

lluissineu said:


> I like Bernstein, Kondrashin, Abbado... There's a live recording with New York Phil and Kubelik which is superb. Extremely slow tempo, but absolutely interesting. Unfortunately I don't have it, only listened to it on a radio programme.


I have heard of that one, I think it was released on DG. I don't know if it's available on CD though, maybe just on vinyl? In any case, I've never actually heard it. Kubelik is always a safe bet when it comes to Mahler, his 1st and 2nd with the Symphonie Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks are superb.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Gielen/SWR Symphony Orchestra by far. Great all-round, and it's the only one I've heard that does the bells of the finale perfectly.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Bernstein's recording is in the details as well as the broad overview of the work. People like Abbado often try to micromanage every detail and lose sight of the bigger picture when it comes to Mahler. Bernstein captures the small details but never loses sight of the grander scale that Mahler projects. Little things like just before figure 89 in Nachtmusik I, the harps and trilling oboes backed by the single muted trilling viola. NO other recording captures it in quite this way. The cowbells and chimes ring out for all they are worth in a way no one else does. Bernstein captures all the humor in the finale that most others miss. Bernstein builds the symphony logically and naturally in a way no one else I have ever heard has which is why I put it above all others.

There are plenty others I enjoy. Gielen has a fantastic recording with probably the best scherzo, the Kondrashin that has been mentioned is fantastic as well, Bernstein's remake on DG is great, Barenboim with the Staatskapelle Berlin is surprisingly excellent, Kubelik's studio recording and his live recording on Audite with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra are both barn burners, even Haitink's first recording is very special. I would put all of those up at the top of the heap but Lenny's first recording is just an edge above everyone else for me.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I "learned" it on the original Bernstein/NYPO recording, which was basically all there was when I (and everyone else) was just getting into Mahler in the '60s. I played it a lot (as I did all music I was just introducing myself to) until it began to sour my stomach. And although I go back and give it (the work) a listen every few years, it's not on my "must have" list of Mahler symphonies. As befits the era I grew up in, I collected 7ths by Solti/CSO, Kubelick/Bavaria, and Haitinck/RCO -- but the symphony never "took."


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

No Chill782002, it's not in DG, it is included in an set. Look at it and see why I didn't buy it








A wonderful spanish radio presenter named Jose Luis Pérez de Arteaga, really an authority in Mahler and Shostakovitch devoted a hole program to analyse this recording.

Hope it be released again at a lower price.

Best wishes to London.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Abbado/CSO is tops for me....
Bernstein/NYPO I [Sony] is also a favorite. My favorite Mahler performance by LB.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

realdealblues said:


> Bernstein's recording is in the details as well as the broad overview of the work. People like Abbado often try to micromanage every detail and lose sight of the bigger picture when it comes to Mahler. Bernstein captures the small details but never loses sight of the grander scale that Mahler projects. Little things like just before figure 89 in Nachtmusik I, the harps and trilling oboes backed by the single muted trilling viola. NO other recording captures it in quite this way. The cowbells and chimes ring out for all they are worth in a way no one else does. Bernstein captures all the humor in the finale that most others miss. Bernstein builds the symphony logically and naturally in a way no one else I have ever heard has which is why I put it above all others.
> 
> There are plenty others I enjoy. Gielen has a fantastic recording with probably the best scherzo, the Kondrashin that has been mentioned is fantastic as well, Bernstein's remake on DG is great, Barenboim with the Staatskapelle Berlin is surprisingly excellent, Kubelik's studio recording and his live recording on Audite with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra are both barn burners, even Haitink's first recording is very special. I would put all of those up at the top of the heap but Lenny's first recording is just an edge above everyone else for me.


I learnt four things, at least, from your post:

1- Bernstein never lose sight of the global conception of the symphony.
2- I'll try to get The Michael Gielen recording.
3- Barenboim is *surprisingly* excellent (he usually isn't)
4- Finally, The expression 'barn burner', I'd never heard it. Talk classical Is wonderful... To learn English.

Good post realdealblues.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

lluissineu said:


> I learnt four things, at least, from your post:
> 
> 1- Bernstein never lose sight of the global conception of the symphony.
> 2- I'll try to get The Michael Gielen recording.
> ...


Haha...glad to be of assistance. I have all sorts of expressions that still confuse my girlfriend and closest of friends.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

My "Top Five", in no particular order: Boulez, Bernstein (Sony), Gielen, Kondrashin, Zender


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

lluissineu said:


> 3- Barenboim is *surprisingly*


I heard Barenboim conduct M7 with Chicago SO in Boston - really excellent performance...amongst many highlights - the tenor horn solo [mvt I] was totally awesome [M. Mulcahey (trb II) played it - real virtuoso falir]


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

lluissineu said:


> No Chill782002, it's not in DG, it is included in an set. Look at it and see why I didn't buy it
> View attachment 93528
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that is rather pricey. If that's the only way to get it I may have to wait some time to hear it. Best wishes to Mallorca, a lovely place.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

No love for Chailly? His and the Abbado CSO are my faves.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

A lot of love for the Boulez, Abbado and Kondrashin but the original Bernstein / NYPO still seems to be out in front. Placing my order on Amazon now... The Kondrashin may have to wait a little while as CD copies there look quite expensive. For those who haven't heard it, I urge you to check out the Tilson-Thomas/LSO, the member who recommended it knew what he was talking about.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

WildThing said:


> No love for Chailly? His and the Abbado CSO are my faves.


I haven't heard the Chailly but if your other favourite is the Abbado CSO then that's good enough for me.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Recorded 2001, 1971, 1965.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I think a lot of the 7th hinges on the tenor horns and the way the conductor incorporates these. For instance, there is a surprisingly wide variance in the way the muted second tenor horn echoes the first at the beginning of the second movement. There are some versions where the second tenor horn is so muted as to be scarcely audible and others where it is at the same volume as the first, thus somewhat defeating the intended "echo" effect. I prefer somewhere in the middle.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Vaneyes said:


> Recorded 2001, 1971, 1965.


Another vote for the Bernstein. I'm starting to think this is the clear favourite although that may simply be reflective of the fact that it was the first widely available recording. I have an even earlier 1950 live version with Hermann Scherchen and the Wiener Symphoniker, which is fascinating as it's such an early performance from a time before Mahler had entered the standard repertoire, but I think Scherchen overexaggerates the grotesque sections and does not concentrate enough on the serene, majestic parts.

I've heard the live Abbado / Berliner Philharmoniker version but still prefer the studio recording with the CSO as I think the BPO version is a little too hurried in places. I haven't heard the Solti but the CSO is a truly virtuosic orchestra.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> I think a lot of the 7th hinges on the tenor horns and the way the conductor incorporates these. For instance, there is a surprisingly wide variance in the way the muted second tenor horn echoes the first at the beginning of the second movement. There are some versions where the second tenor horn is so muted as to be scarcely audible and others where it is at the same volume as the first, thus somewhat defeating the intended "echo" effect. I prefer somewhere in the middle.


The Tenor horn is featured in mvt I, major solo....it is at times accompanied by Horns, trombones, bass trombone.

The opening of the 2nd mvt features the horns [aka French horns] - Horn I plays forte _rufend _"calling"...Horn II "responds" _antwortend_, _mit dampfer_ "muted".

The First horn should be louder, more present..the response is muted, distant. When Barenboim/CSO did it, the contrast was stunning, Horn II was extremely soft - the effect was quite magical.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> I have an even earlier 1950 live version with Hermann Scherchen and the Wiener Symphoniker, which is fascinating as it's such an early performance from a time before Mahler had entered the standard repertoire,


That was the Vienna State Opera orchestra, IIRC...he also recorded #5 with them...pretty awful...really scruffy, sloppy playing, IIRC the tenor horn in M7 sounded really ghastly - it's been many years since I heard either of these, for a reason...;-)


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> The Tenor horn is featured in mvt I, major solo....it is at times accompanied by Horns, trombones, bass trombone.
> 
> The opening of the 2nd mvt features the horns [aka French horns] - Horn I plays forte _rufend _"calling"...Horn II "responds" _antwortend_, _mit dampfer_ "muted".
> 
> The First horn should be louder, more present..the response is muted, distant. When Barenboim/CSO did it, the contrast was stunning, Horn II was extremely soft - the effect was quite magical.


Sorry, getting my horns confused! The solo tenor horn at the beginning of the first movement is also very important, particularly the tempo. I've heard some quite rushed openings and that doesn't work at all.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

chill782002 said:


> Another vote for the Bernstein. I'm starting to think this is the clear favourite although that may simply be reflective of the fact that it was the first widely available recording. I have an even earlier 1950 live version with Hermann Scherchen and the Wiener Symphoniker, which is fascinating as it's such an early performance from a time before Mahler had entered the standard repertoire, but I think Scherchen overexaggerates the grotesque sections and does not concentrate enough on the serene, majestic parts.
> 
> I've heard the live Abbado / Berliner Philharmoniker version but still prefer the studio recording with the CSO as I think the BPO version is a little too hurried in places. I haven't heard the Solti but the CSO is a truly virtuosic orchestra.


*Scherchen's* Mahler 2 is his best Mahler IMO. Wild 'n wacky, like many of his recs. Very good remastering by Universal (Millennium Classics).

While I'm on M2, Suitner! :tiphat:


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> That was the Vienna State Opera orchestra, IIRC...he also recorded #5 with them...pretty awful...really scruffy, sloppy playing, IIRC the tenor horn in M7 sounded really ghastly - it's been many years since I heard either of these, for a reason...;-)


I believe you're thinking of the 1954 studio recording he made, that was with the Vienna State Opera orchestra. However the same is true of both versions, the tenor horn does sound rather off key although Scherchen may have deliberately exaggerated that. As I said, he seemed to delight in the grotesque aspects of the work at the expense of its inherent beauty. The 1950 live rendition is such an early performance though and interesting to hear. Does anyone know of an earlier recording than that one? I assume there must be one but I haven't come across any.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> ....The solo tenor horn at the beginning of the first movement is also very important, particularly the tempo.  I've heard some quite rushed openings and that doesn't work at all.


Also, the tenor horn solo, certainly in past years, may be assigned to one of the extra or utility players of the low brass section. this instrument may not be played regularly by the assigned musician...I've heard some pretty atrocious sounds being offered as a tenor horn - more like a flatulent elephant, or a dyspeptic rhinoceros...


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Also, the tenor horn solo, certainly in past years, may be assigned to one of the extra or utility players of the low brass section. this instrument may not be played regularly by the assigned musician...I've heard some pretty atrocious sounds being offered as a tenor horn - more like a flatulent elephant, or a dyspeptic rhinoceros...


Very true. The tenor horn does not seem to be a frequently used instrument so, as you say, it may not be one that the musician is familiar with playing and that is very apparent on occasion. For what it's worth, I think the soloist on the Abbado/CSO handles it the best of the versions I've heard.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Leonard Bernstein's second recording with the New York Philharmonic, a live performance. Wonderful!


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

hpowders said:


> OP: Leonard Bernstein's second recording with the New York Philharmonic, a live performance. Wonderful!


Would you rate this higher than the first recording? That seems to be the favourite here at the moment.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

chill782002 said:


> Would you rate this higher than the first recording? That seems to be the favourite here at the moment.


If I may, the newer's sound is better, but the reading's less urgent. 2CDs, ugh.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I remember a very early L.P. version....maybe Swarovsky/Berlin Clamdiggers-note splatterers Radio Orchestra...from a live broadcast....hilarious...horrendous clams and clinkers throughout....in fairness, this was well before the Mahler symphonies became part of the standard repertoire...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

chill782002 said:


> Would you rate this higher than the first recording? That seems to be the favourite here at the moment.


Yes. I like the second recording, just as I like Bernstein's Concertgebouw Mahler 9 and his Vienna Philharmonic Mahler 6 better than his earlier recordings. A shame they couldn't get the newer Mahler 7 on one CD, though.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> I remember a very early L.P. version....maybe Swarovsky/Berlin Clamdiggers-note splatterers Radio Orchestra...from a live broadcast....hilarious...horrendous clams and clinkers throughout....in fairness, this was well before the Mahler symphonies became part of the standard repertoire...


Interesting, thank you. I'll see if I can find out more.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Vaneyes said:


> If I may, the newer's sound is better, but the reading's less urgent. 2CDs, ugh.


I should perhaps mention at this point that the Tilson-Thomas/LSO is a 2 CD. Only just though.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Yes. I like the second recording, just as I like Bernstein's Concertgebouw Mahler 9 and his Vienna Philharmonic Mahler 6 better than his earlier recordings. A shame they couldn't get the newer Mahler 7 on one CD, though.


Thank you. Bernstein seems a popular choice and while I have only heard the first recording once and am grateful that it is allowing me a second chance, I haven't heard the second recording at all. I'll be sure to check it out.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

No votes for the Klemperer, I see 

I've tried to warm to it, but I can't. Still, I've not given up on it, and it might grow on me one day - a bit like Celibidache's Bruckner Eight.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Tough one between Tennstedt/London Philharmonic and Bernstein's first recording with the New York Philharmonic


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> Tough one between Tennstedt/London Philharmonic and Bernstein's first recording with the New York Philharmonic


My thoughts exactly, I am still doubting.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

MarkW said:


> I "learned" it on the original Bernstein/NYPO recording, which was basically all there was when I (and everyone else) was just getting into Mahler in the '60s. I played it a lot (as I did all music I was just introducing myself to) until it began to sour my stomach. And although I go back and give it (the work) a listen every few years, it's not on my "must have" list of Mahler symphonies. As befits the era I grew up in, I collected 7ths by Solti/CSO, Kubelick/Bavaria, and Haitinck/RCO -- but the symphony never "took."


I had the hardest time getting to appreciate the Seventh. The Bernstein recording was my initial exposure on an awful sounding lp. 
The only reason that kept coming back to the work was my love of the other Mahler works. Gradually I fell in love with Mahler's problem child but I think it took a few concert performances for that to happen; there was no 'aha' moment, just a gradual development of appreciation.
When the Bernstein NY recording was released after a good remastering, I was pleasantly surprised that it was so much better than I had remembered. It's usually MTT and San Fran when I want to listen to it


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Pugg said:


> My thoughts exactly, I am still doubting.


I think the Tennstedt performance is close to inspired.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Haydn67 said:


> I think the Tennstedt performance is close to inspired.


Thank you, will check that out as well!


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

WildThing said:


> No love for Chailly? His and the Abbado CSO are my faves.


Chailly cycle with The RCO IMO is a very good one. And RCO has such a wonderful sound (I'm tired to repeat it again and again)


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> I think the Tennstedt performance is close to inspired.


I am spinning this one now...







* Mahler* ; symphony no7

Leonard Bernstein conducting.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

chill782002 said:


> Thanks, Kondrashin is one of my favourite conductors and I didn't know that he'd made a recording of this. Will add it to the list.


There's also a studio recording he did of the 7th with the Leningrad Phil - also well worth hearing.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Listened to Abravanel/Utah a couple of days ago. There are some clinkers in the first movement, and the way he takes the last movement might not be for everybody (slower and "gentler" than usual), but I thought the middle movements were fine, except that the cowbells should sound more like cowbells than whatever it is they do sound like - I'm not quite sure what). So I can't give it a ringing endorsement (I saw what I did there), but I did find the inner movements interesting. The Utah Symphony is certainly not polished - no Karajan sheen within hearing - but that's fun, because I can really make out individual parts, and almost perceive the individuals who are playing them.

My reference version is Tennstedt/LPO.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Klemperer's recording is from another world in my opinion. Its extreme lenght does nothing but enjoy more. Tennstdt follows in the back.
I listened once to Bernstein's with Sony (my first No.7 experience) but I don't remember anything. Still, I though at that time (10 months ago!) that it was one of his best symphonies.
I haven't tried any Solti Mahler except the No.8, but I want to try the set... in a very long time.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> I think the Tennstedt performance is close to inspired.


​
Playing right now!


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Granate said:


> Klemperer's recording is from another world in my opinion. Its extreme lenght does nothing but enjoy more. Tennstdt follows in the back.
> I listened once to Bernstein's with Sony (my first No.7 experience) but I don't remember anything. Still, I though at that time (10 months ago!) that it was one of his best symphonies.
> I haven't tried any Solti Mahler except the No.8, but I want to try the set... in a very long time.


The Klemperer is somewhat too slow for my liking. However, will definitely check out the Tennstedt, seems to be quite popular. I have a recording of him conducting Mahler's 1st with the London Philharmonic and that was very good although the 1987 Haitink / Berliner Philharmoniker recording is still my first choice for that symphony.


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## chesapeake bay (Aug 3, 2015)

Scherchen's 1965 live recording with the Toronto Symphony is definitely worth a listen.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Still doubting, Abbado is also very good.


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