# Which is the greatest opera of them all?



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Gramophone continues its grand tradition of recurrent stupidity, lists of the best this, the greatest that, customarily peppered with vapid and moronic adjectives and home team boosterism of Anglo artists and
performers.

Why are we not surprised?

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/the-gramophone-blog/which-is-the-greatest-opera-of-them-all


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

sounds like an unveiled advert for Glyndebourne (productions) :lol:

I personally don't read any (opera) magazines. I've read some Gramophone reviews in the past and wasn't impressed so I've been avoiding them.

that being said, you might have noticed that best of lists are popular on this site as well...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

The greatest opera of them all is the one which is your personal favourite.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Whoever wrote this needs to come read this forum a bit. We have the correct answer right here, in the very first line of the very first post: http://www.talkclassical.com/4922-greatest-opera-ever-written.html


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Recommendations from members who voted at the time are also here http://www.talkclassical.com/11676-talk-classical-top-272-a.html- but that would of course be different today as we have a whole crop of new members:


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

The greatest opera is yet to come: the one i'll write in the future. It will be a comic opera that satarizes the _cliches_ of opera itself  heheheh


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

I'd rather take the idiosyncratic personal choices and taste of a person over group-think any day. I don't see how an English critic listing two English operas in his personal top ten, which he admits is subject to change, is really Anglo boosterism. Maybe it his choosing Verdi's _Falstaff_ just because it is based on a Shakespearian character. Also where are all these moronic adjectives, "moronic" is really the only one I really found objectionable.

I suppose you are not surprised because it agrees with the opinion you already hold about the magazine. Perhaps you should stop reading it if it annoys you so much


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

dionisio said:


> The greatest opera is yet to come: the one i'll write in the future. It will be a comic opera that satirizes the _cliches_ of opera itself  heheheh


Stravinsky did write The Rake's Progress, you know, which includes homages to operas from Monteverdi through Mozart!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Karl said:


> Gramophone continues its grand tradition of recurrent stupidity, lists of the best this, the greatest that, customarily peppered with vapid and moronic adjectives and home team boosterism of Anglo artists and
> performers.
> 
> Why are we not surprised?
> ...


Who might we be---you royalty or something?
Mind you I suppose they would talk about Glyndebourne as it's in great demand internationally,been have you ?
Mind you,I noticed a couple of foreign Johnnys have crept in there Mozart somebody and something Verdi.... I heard he was a Green.
Anyways I think you are right and I'm going to sit right down ,write to the editor of that rag and tell him to give the low-down on Chilean opera.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Stravinsky did write The Rake's Progress, you know, which includes homages to operas from Monteverdi through Mozart!


My favorite opera-parodying-opera is Hindemith's _Neues vom Tage_, which features the obligatory tender and heart-warming duet for the lead man and woman... except they're singing about getting a divorce.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Does this mean that *Les Troyens* is _not_ 'the greatest opera of them all'?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Parody started a long time ago. There is a gorgeous aria in Cavalli's Il Giasone (1649) where the two servants are singing a love duet - but stating quite emphatically that if the other leaves them they are decidedly NOT going to die of a broken heart, but rather move on to pastures new.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Cosi. Of course. Duh.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I would certainly put Falstaff and Figaro as two of the greatest. So much wit and wisdom in the music and libretti. Words and music never better combined.
But note that Glyndebourne has committed the idiotic error by updating Figaro to the 1960s. But the whole thing on which the plot hinges was the nobleman's 'privilege' over the servant girls. Putting it in the 1960s ruins the whole point.
Having said that, there is no such thing as 'the greatest' - unless you are a Mohammed Ali (or RW) fan - both of them had that opinion of themselves. There are certainly some operas which are considered by many to be great. But the 'greatest'? Comes down to personal preference. I enjoy Wagner in certain moods. But on a desert Island I wouldn't want to be aurelly assaulted by Tristan or The Ring. Figaro, Cosi or Falstaff are more to my choice.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Whoever wrote this needs to come read this forum a bit. We have the correct answer right here, in the very first line of the very first post: http://www.talkclassical.com/4922-greatest-opera-ever-written.html


Please note there is no 'correct' answer as following posts prove. Only what you prefer.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I would certainly put Falstaff and Figaro as two of the greatest. So much wit and wisdom in the music and libretti. Words and music never better combined.





DavidA said:


> Please note there is no 'correct' answer as following posts prove. Only what you prefer.


What exactly do you believe?

Anyway, I would not presume to speak for everyone when I say my preferred operas are Nozze, Don Giovanni, Tristan, and Wozzeck.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2013)

Karl said:


> Gramophone continues its grand tradition of recurrent stupidity, lists of the best this, the greatest that, customarily peppered with vapid and moronic adjectives and home team boosterism of Anglo artists and
> performers.
> 
> Why are we not surprised?
> ...


This is, of course, a blog, and early on makes plain with a disclaimer:



> In any event, one's choices must be subjective and, no doubt, say more about the chooser than the operas.


I don't see how you can complain.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> What exactly do you believe?
> 
> Anyway, I would not presume to speak for everyone when I say my preferred operas are Nozze, Don Giovanni, Tristan, and Wozzeck.


The posts following that quoted - that the Ring was the greatest opera - differed in their choice.

Your word 'preferred' is the correct one.


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## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Falstaff is certainly a fine opera but I'd not rank it tops.

However I DO rank Marriage of Figaro as the best ever, essentially perfection.

Of course there are plenty of great operas that deserve near-top ranking as well. I'd have to pick from the 4 greatest composers for that "best ten" maybe: Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Wagner.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Why, everyone knows the greatest opera in the known universe is _Don Giovanni_!  (note the wink: tongue-in-cheek, I am paraphrasing Flaubert who said, "_Les trois plus belles choses que Dieu ait faites, c'est la mer, l'Hamlet et le Don Juan de Mozart_" [The finest things God created are the sea, _Hamlet_ and _Don Giovanni_].


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Why, everyone knows the greatest opera in the known universe is _Don Giovanni_!  (note the wink: tongue-in-cheek, I am paraphrasing Flaubert who said, "_Les trois plus belles choses que Dieu ait faites, c'est la mer, l'Hamlet et le Don Juan de Mozart_" [The finest things God created are the sea, _Hamlet_ and _Don Giovanni_].


What's with the tiny print,trying to make life hard for Geezers ?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

moody said:


> What's with the tiny print,trying to make life hard for Geezers ?


Ha, you can't win, tyrone!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

The more I look at the OP the worse it seems.
Laurent Naovri is French,Sarah Fahi is Australian, Roman Burdanko is Russian,Lucia Carillo is Italian, Amanda Majeski is American,Lydia Teuscher is German,Joshua Hopkins is Canadian and Adam Plachetko is Czech.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Stravinsky did write The Rake's Progress, you know, which includes homages to operas from Monteverdi through Mozart!


Yes but i'm thinking about creating Don Quixotenian characters. Many of the the professions related to opera seems to be somehow estranged from the world: the stage director, the singers, the composers.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

katdad said:


> Falstaff is certainly a fine opera but I'd not rank it tops.
> 
> However I DO rank Marriage of Figaro as the best ever, essentially perfection.
> 
> Of course there are plenty of great operas that deserve near-top ranking as well. I'd have to pick from the 4 greatest composers for that "best ten" maybe: Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Wagner.


It's hard for me to argue with Marriage of Figaro being at the top of any list. It is just one of those completely wonderful things that make life a joy.

On the other hand, regarding the 4 greatest composers, while Puccini might seem to be a natural, my list would include Bellini instead. Bellini's music is intricate, never dull and his melodies such that you wish they would never end. Maybe Puccini would be a better #5.

Also, in that list of 4 greatest, how could one ever put Puccini before Wagner? That must have been a typo.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

The greatest opera? Well, you have seven to choose from (all composed between 1780 and 1791)...


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Yes but i'm thinking about creating Don Quixotenian characters. Many of the the professions related to opera seems to be somehow estranged from the world: the stage director, the singers, the composers.


Well, but don't forget the stagehands, the supers and the customer service staff! Lot of regular folks there ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

One opera that never fails to move me is Fidelio. One performance I saw I cried all through the Prisoners' chorus and the final scene. As Klemperer said, it is absolutely unique.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I would have to include Handel among the greatest opera composers.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Interesting that Richard Strauss was a great admirer of Bizet's Carmen. He said that if you want to know about orchestration don't go to Wagner go to Bizet.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> while Puccini might seem to be a natural, my list would include Bellini instead. Bellini's music is intricate, never dull and his melodies such that you wish they would never end.


no doubt, Bellini > Puccini.

my list (order of birth): Handel, Mozart, Rossini, Bellini, R. Strauss.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> Bellini's music is intricate, never dull and his melodies such that you wish they would never end. Maybe Puccini would be a better #5.
> 
> Also, in that list of 4 greatest, how could one ever put Puccini before Wagner? That must have been a typo.


Bellini's music is complex and wonderful- as is Puccini's. Puccini is routinely criticized for being 'popular' and 'easy', and while I make no argument with the assertions that he is accessible and quite fantastically popular, I do have to disagree with those who say that he isn't complicated, and that he isn't as valuable as other opera composers. I definitely put Puccini above Wagner (though, for the record, Puccini would disagree). While I realize that this is subjective, I find most of Wagner's music to be just plain boring. What irks me (and I'm not really directing this at you, Hoffmann, anymore, as it goes beyond the scope of what you said), is that Wagner fans can never admit that their feelings about Puccini are the same as my feelings about Wagner: subjective preferences. Instead, people call one Holy and the other Popular.

I find just as much beauty and philosophy in Puccini's work as others find in Wagner (especially the last 6 operas, starting with _Fanciulla_). So, this is no typo: Giacomo Puccini was a better opera composer than Richard Wagner, in my opinion.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, for what it's worth:

I certainly did not intend to cast any aspersions on Puccini or his operas. My list is in the order of my preference, and does not mean to suggest substandard quality or substandard anything else in any other composer. In fact, I love Puccini's operas - they tend to be staged more frequently than most other composers' works for a reason. 

I give Wagner higher standing because - for me - his operas are emotionally significantly more intense. Wagner's operas represent romanticism at its highest level, in my view. His music isn't for everyone - I don't find it boring, for example - but then, my degree is in German Literature. I have to admit that I did not appreciate the Ring operas until after I saw each of them staged - when I was in my 50s. I also still struggle with Parsifal. The world of opera is a big place and there is room for everyone.

I have only been on the Forum for a couple of days, so was planning to wait a bit longer before trying to offend anyone.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> Bellini's music is complex and wonderful- as is Puccini's. Puccini is routinely criticized for being 'popular' and 'easy', and while I make no argument with the assertions that he is accessible and quite fantastically popular, I do have to disagree with those who say that he isn't complicated, and that he isn't as valuable as other opera composers. I definitely put Puccini above Wagner (though, for the record, Puccini would disagree). While I realize that this is subjective, I find most of Wagner's music to be just plain boring. What irks me (and I'm not really directing this at you, Hoffmann, anymore, as it goes beyond the scope of what you said), is that Wagner fans can never admit that their feelings about Puccini are the same as my feelings about Wagner: subjective preferences. Instead, people call one Holy and the other Popular.
> 
> I find just as much beauty and philosophy in Puccini's work as others find in Wagner (especially the last 6 operas, starting with _Fanciulla_). So, this is no typo: Giacomo Puccini was a better opera composer than Richard Wagner, in my opinion.


I love Puccini but I do think that whether or not you appreciate it, there was a lot more engineering and architecture that went into Wagner's later operas than into Puccini's. It is like comparing a very beautiful building, say







with the Taj Mahal.








It's like Proust's _In Search of Lost Time_, my favorite novel--it is not everyone's cup of tisane _(an inside joke)_ but it is clear that _In Search of Lost Time_ employs a much more sophisticated architecture than the average James Michener novel.

Then finally, Puccini borrowed heavily from Wagner's Parsifal, and not only once but for three different operas. There is no greater homage than to borrow another's work.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Well, but don't forget the stagehands, the supers and the customer service staff! Lot of regular folks there ...


And what would be of Don Quixote without his Sancho Pança?


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I would have to include Handel among the greatest opera composers.


Truely wise words


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> I give Wagner higher standing because - for me - his operas are emotionally significantly more intense. Wagner's operas represent romanticism at its highest level, in my view. His music isn't for everyone - I don't find it boring, for example - but then, my degree is in German Literature. I have to admit that I did not appreciate the Ring operas until after I saw each of them staged - when I was in my 50s. I also still struggle with Parsifal. The world of opera is a big place and there is room for everyone.
> 
> I have only been on the Forum for a couple of days, so was planning to wait a bit longer before trying to offend anyone.


*Valkyrie mode* Wilkommen! Wilkommen! Wilkommen! 
I am definitely looking forward to some insights on Wagner from someone with a degree in German literature


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

I think the Ring could go for greatest. It is an infinite work of art. A work that has an almost infinite number of interpretations, from socio-political, to psychological, to philosophical. Parsifal may also be a contestant. It defies genre. A really incredible experience.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Yes, I do have a Wagner bias


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Have you heard the 1962 Knappertsbusch recording of Parsifal? maybe that will change your mind about it.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Never knew he borrowed from Parsifal. It's one of my favorites; no wonder I like Puccini so much.

Could you name operas where he borrows? Very interested.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> Well, for what it's worth:
> 
> I certainly did not intend to cast any aspersions on Puccini or his operas. My list is in the order of my preference, and does not mean to suggest substandard quality or substandard anything else in any other composer. In fact, I love Puccini's operas - they tend to be staged more frequently than most other composers' works for a reason.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry for kind of biting your head off. It's my fault here, not yours. I just get frustrated easily when it comes to this composer for a number of reasons. The primary one is that there seems to be a need on the part of critics to ingratiate themselves with what they see as the forces of 'progress'. Puccini (and Massenet, and Korngold, and Mascagni, and Charpentier, and on and on) isn't seen as progressive, so he's lumped into the worst possible category: popular. It's snobbery of the highest order, and a really dead way of looking at living art. But from your comment there's no evidence that you hold any of these opinions, and it's a case of misdirected frustration on my end. And your reply shows more patience than I did, that's for sure. Please accept my apologies.


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## HumphreyAppleby (Apr 11, 2013)

tyroneslothrop said:


> I love Puccini but I do think that whether or not you appreciate it, there was a lot more engineering and architecture that went into Wagner's later operas than into Puccini's. It is like comparing a very beautiful building, say
> View attachment 19506
> 
> with the Taj Mahal.
> ...


That's a really valid point. I don't think that Wagner wasn't a great composer, because he obviously was. The Liebestod is sublime. The prelude to Lohengrin: drop dead gorgeous. Indeed, a man I respect very much, Steiner, thought that there was some pretty powerful stuff in Wagner's works. I honestly don't see it. And to some extent that's probably because I just don't like most of his music. But a little, I think, it's also because I disagree with some of the hype surrounding him.

Sticking with the building metaphor, I'd like to put in a quote the speaker of which I can't remember at the moment: We shape our buildings, and afterwards they shape us. Well, the same is true of art. I have to say that I don't like a lot of what his work stands for. Isolde is the ideal woman because she is willing to die for Tristan. Their death is the paragon of beauty because they go into nonexistence where their desires can be satiated. I don't like the implications for either feminism or romantic love. Puccini's _Turandot_ and _Fanciulla_ on the other hand, are about equality and preach that the highest form of love is not desire but forgiveness. Meanwhile Minnie is a strong, independent woman who is willing to die for the man she loves. but doesn't desire it. It's life affirming. To me (and I could be misinterpreting), _Tristan_ is death affirming.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Notung said:


> Never knew he borrowed from Parsifal. It's one of my favorites; no wonder I like Puccini so much.
> 
> Could you name operas where he borrows? Very interested.


_qv._ The Romantic World of Puccini _passim_.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> What irks me (and I'm not really directing this at you, Hoffmann, anymore, as it goes beyond the scope of what you said), is that Wagner fans can never admit that their feelings about Puccini are the same as my feelings about Wagner: subjective preferences. Instead, people call one Holy and the other Popular.


I think you have a bit of a clichéd image of Wagner fans in general (and, forgive me - you seem _so_ in the defense - totally unnecessarily I think!). Wagner and Puccini (and Cole Porter and Stephen Sondheim and ...) strike different chords with me. It's true that the "Wagner chord", at least at this point in my life, seems the most relevant to me, but I do feel the strength of Puccini's work (as far as I know it yet), and I do feel its seriousness and honesty and how it does point ahead. It is my firm belief that every piece of art with staying power, that does not bore after repeated "consumption", has something truly relevant in it. Accessibility is _not_ a sign of irrelevance.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> I think you have a bit of a clichéd image of Wagner fans in general (and, forgive me - you seem _so_ in the defense - totally unnecessarily I think!)


His use of the word "holy" gave me a thought that his stereotype of Wagner fans may be based on one particular TC member


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> His use of the word "holy" gave me a thought that his stereotype of Wagner fans may be based on one particular TC member




I guess it bears repeating that "the holy German art" is of course an expression of adoration to the art that emerged from Germany and the other German-speaking countries. But it also refers to the unifying power of art at a point in time when "Germany" was nothing but a dream, effectively - as one of our most eloquent members has once put it - "a ragbag of kingdoms, counties & other feudal backwaters"; so a strong statement absolutely seems in order.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> . Puccini's _Turandot_ and _Fanciulla_ on the other hand, are about equality and preach that the highest form of love is not desire but forgiveness. Meanwhile Minnie is a strong, independent woman who is willing to die for the man she loves. but doesn't desire it. It's life affirming. To me (and I could be misinterpreting), _Tristan_ is death affirming.


Turandot about equality? When the poor little slave girl is tortured on the stage. When the pig Calaf allows her to be? Come on! Puccini destroyed women in his own life and on the stage too.

BTW I should add Imlove much of the music. Puccini the man, however, was a horror story!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Which women did he destroy? As far I know there was the maidservant who committed suicide, but that was Signora Puccini's doing, not the composer.

On the other hand I wouldn't have wanted to be a duck within flying distance of him and his guns.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Which women did he destroy? As far I know there was the maidservant who committed suicide, but that was Signora Puccini's doing, not the composer.
> 
> On the other hand I wouldn't have wanted to be a duck within flying distance of him and his guns.


Puccini was a serial womaniser who had numerous affairs. This destroyed his wife, for a start. She suspected him of having an affair with the maid. But she got the wrong woman - documents found in 2007 allege it was the maid's cousin!


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

HumphreyAppleby said:


> That's a really valid point. I don't think that Wagner wasn't a great composer, because he obviously was. The Liebestod is sublime. The prelude to Lohengrin: drop dead gorgeous. Indeed, a man I respect very much, Steiner, thought that there was some pretty powerful stuff in Wagner's works. I honestly don't see it. And to some extent that's probably because I just don't like most of his music. But a little, I think, it's also because I disagree with some of the hype surrounding him.
> 
> Sticking with the building metaphor, I'd like to put in a quote the speaker of which I can't remember at the moment: We shape our buildings, and afterwards they shape us. Well, the same is true of art. I have to say that I don't like a lot of what his work stands for. Isolde is the ideal woman because she is willing to die for Tristan. Their death is the paragon of beauty because they go into nonexistence where their desires can be satiated. I don't like the implications for either feminism or romantic love. Puccini's _Turandot_ and _Fanciulla_ on the other hand, are about equality and preach that the highest form of love is not desire but forgiveness. Meanwhile Minnie is a strong, independent woman who is willing to die for the man she loves. but doesn't desire it. It's life affirming. To me (and I could be misinterpreting), _Tristan_ is death affirming.


Regarding _Tristan und Isolde_, I do not believe that Wagner was trying to convey that Isolde is the ideal woman because she was willing to die for her man. Neither do I see the opera as a celebration of death.

What the opera is about, I would suggest, is instead a celebration of life, of love - of ideal love. Tristan and Isolde's love is pure rapture - highest romantic love - highlighted by the extraordinary love duet in Act II, that completely soars over the warnings of maidservant Brangäne, who was posted as lookout. The audience identifies with the emotions, with the intensity of the romance, which is something all humans want to experience, but which here ends in tragedy - again highlighted by one of the most amazing pieces of vocal music put to paper - the Liebestod. The tragedy is that both lovers die, ending their perfect love, but leaves the audience with the bittersweet knowledge that neither will suffer by having to endure with the absence of the other. It also leaves me nearly breathless and plastered in my seat, almost unable to move (I know, I know, but please! Try and resist the wisecracks).


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

Don Giovanni and Figaro............. I won't quibble about which is 1st and 2nd!


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Puccini was a serial womaniser who had numerous affairs. This destroyed his wife, for a start. She suspected him of having an affair with the maid. But she got the wrong woman - documents found in 2007 allege it was the maid's cousin!


Again with this forum! Why should a person who has his/her affairs be considered an awful person?

Having an affair does not make someone evil or horrible. I wouldn't be capable to trust him/her anymore perhaps, but that's it. He/She can still be the nicest person, the more professional, a caring father/mother, a dear friend, altruist, pay his/her taxes, a good samaritan, help the others, etc.

From Puccini, i'd be affraid indeed if i were to be the duck or the rabbit...or just someone near him and had to put up with his endless somking.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> Regarding _Tristan und Isolde_, I do not believe that Wagner was trying to convey that Isolde is the ideal woman because she was willing to die for her man. Neither do I see the opera as a celebration of death.
> 
> What the opera is about, I would suggest, is instead a celebration of life, of love - of ideal love. Tristan and Isolde's love is pure rapture - highest romantic love - highlighted by the extraordinary love duet in Act II, that completely soars over the warnings of maidservant Brangäne, who was posted as lookout. The audience identifies with the emotions, with the intensity of the romance, which is something all humans want to experience, but which here ends in tragedy - again highlighted by one of the most amazing pieces of vocal music put to paper - the Liebestod. The tragedy is that both lovers die, ending their perfect love, but leaves the audience with the bittersweet knowledge that neither will suffer by having to endure with the absence of the other. It also leaves me nearly breathless and plastered in my seat, almost unable to move (I know, I know, but please! Try and resist the wisecracks).


I respect your interpretation. I, for one, absolutely see the opera celebrating Tristan's realm of death, and Isolde, ultimately, making a mature choice following him into his realm.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

I can accept (I think) that I might be wrong, but believe that a review of Wagner's operas (with the possible exception of the first 3, which I don't know) reflects a study of different aspects of love - whether ideal (Elisabeth/Tannhäuser), familial (Wotan/Brünnhilde), romantic-erotic (Tristan/Isolde) or doomed/tragic (Lohengrin/Elsa) - I'm sure there are more - the love duets between Siegmund/Sieglinde and Siegfried/Brünnhilde are particularly stunning. I would argue that if the theme of Tristan und Isolde is to celebrate death, that is a perspective - an emotion - difficult for the audience to relate to - nihilistic, really - that would doom the opera to the dustbins of the second hand shops. People are romantic - Wagner might have been the greatest romantic of them all - which, I think, is the enduring appeal of his operas. When Wagner's partisans advocate strongly for his works, I think it is this emotion they connect with. If, when listening to Tristan und Isolde, I heard that celebration of death, I would be sooo gone.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

I think it's more precise than that. The major theme that pervades each of his operas is redemption; each opera can be seen as an attempt to achieve that redemption, i.e. spiritual enlightenment, self-fulfillment and self-knowledge. Thus the concept of the "eternal feminine" comes into play in his operas; an ideal woman who releases man from his "prison" through understanding and acceptance.

I think it's a bit crude to say Tristan und Isolde is death-affirming. I think a truer meaning of the drama lies closer to the Buddhist ideas of nirvana and non-being.

I think it's interesting that one would not like the implications of feminism in Wagner and yet feel Puccini's operas symbolize equality and forgiveness. More than one commentator has noted that each of his 7 major operas revolves around the suffering of a heroine, and are largely examinations of the mental and physical anguish of these ladies. I mean don't get me wrong, I personally love Puccini, and he is certainly more classically romantic in a lot of ways than Wagner. But...equality? I don't see it.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

The theme of redemption is an important one, but really is specific to Tannhäuser. Although I do believe that redemption was important to Wagner, I don't think he focused on it in his other operas. Wotan, for one example, doesn't find redemption following Siegfried's releasing Brünnhilde from the spell that Wotan used to punish her. I'm also not too sure about the Buddhist ideas of nirvana and non-being. Wagner did get around, so anything is possible, but I'm skeptical that this is what he intended in Tristan und Isolde.

I could go through the other operas, but you get the idea. So, I stand by my earlier post.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> The theme of redemption is an important one, but really is specific to Tannhäuser. Although I do believe that redemption was important to Wagner, I don't think he focused on it in his other operas. Wotan, for one example, doesn't find redemption following Siegfried's releasing Brünnhilde from the spell that Wotan used to punish her. I'm also not too sure about the Buddhist ideas of nirvana and non-being. Wagner did get around, so anything is possible, but I'm skeptical that this is what he intended in Tristan und Isolde.
> 
> I could go through the other operas, but you get the idea. So, I stand by my earlier post.


Considering that his composition of Tristan und Isolde coincided with his discovery of Schopenhauer and the profound affect the philosopher had on him, I think they commonalities between that opera and Buddhist ideals make perfect sense. Buddhism-cum-Schopenhauer if you will.

And I could go through the operas demonstrating how redemption plays a major role. The Flying Dutchman being redeemed from his curse by the selfless love of Senta. Heck, what are the final words of Parsifal? "Redemption to the redeemer". So on and so forth.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

^^^ couldn't agree more (says person in the middle of re-reading this - making more sense as I am much more familiar with Wagner's operas than first time around):


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I am sick of this subject. We all know it to be _Tristan_, except those of us in denial.

Let us discuss the greatest opera ever not written. I nominate an opera based on Dante's _Divine Comedy_. It would consist of four cycles of four operas each, to be performed over a month.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> I can accept (I think) that I might be wrong, but believe that a review of Wagner's operas (with the possible exception of the first 3, which I don't know) reflects a study of different aspects of love - whether ideal (Elisabeth/Tannhäuser), familial (Wotan/Brünnhilde), romantic-erotic (Tristan/Isolde) or doomed/tragic (Lohengrin/Elsa) - I'm sure there are more - the love duets between Siegmund/Sieglinde and Siegfried/Brünnhilde are particularly stunning. I would argue that if the theme of Tristan und Isolde is to celebrate death, that is a perspective - an emotion - difficult for the audience to relate to - nihilistic, really - that would doom the opera to the dustbins of the second hand shops. People are romantic - Wagner might have been the greatest romantic of them all - which, I think, is the enduring appeal of his operas. When Wagner's partisans advocate strongly for his works, I think it is this emotion they connect with. If, when listening to Tristan und Isolde, I heard that celebration of death, I would be sooo gone.


I don't even think we disagree very much. In case that got missed: I didn't say the opera was celebrating death; it is celebrating "Tristan's realm of death", which is very specific, and not nihilistic at all. Tristan tries to describe it to us, using comparisons of being in his mother's womb - unconsciously being in this cosmic ocean, being one with the "world-breath".

Outside of the opera, I don't think I would want to go there to find out (not before I have to), but Wagner has a way of selling it!


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

LOL!

Talk about a highly-charged thread..!

Luvly Jubly!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Again with this forum! Why should a person who has his/her affairs be considered an awful person?
> 
> Having an affair does not make someone evil or horrible. I wouldn't be capable to trust him/her anymore perhaps, but that's it. He/She can still be the nicest person, the more professional, a caring father/mother, a dear friend, altruist, pay his/her taxes, a good samaritan, help the others, etc.
> 
> From Puccini, i'd be affraid indeed if i were to be the duck or the rabbit...or just someone near him and had to put up with his endless somking.


I see you have never met many serial adulterers. In general they are very charming people but incredibly deceitful - they have to be to continually deceive their spouse.
Just that I have this incredibly old fashioned and anti-PC view that to cheat on someone you have promised to be faithful to is a heinous wrong. Worse than cheating someone out of their money.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hoffmann said:


> one of the most amazing pieces of vocal music put to paper - the Liebestod.


call me glib, but I've never got the appeal of the Liebestod. I've listened to it again today and still nada.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Have you ever seen Tristan und Isolde staged? If not, that might help explain why the Liebestod seems to fall flat.

I've found - my experience - is that the emotional weight in Wagner's operas became clearer after I had seen them on stage. I listened to the Ring operas for a long time, and they didn't do anything for me. Then, I started seeing them staged, and everything fell into place. Wagner's operas are Gesamtkunstwerke (total works of art) after all, so the music wasn't really intended to stand alone. DVDs might work as well as staging, I can't say - that might be a good place to start. Staging would work better, because after spending all that money for a ticket, one has more incentive to stick to it...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> call me glib, but I've never got the appeal of the Liebestod. I've listened to it again today and still nada.


One of the great things about the Liebestod is also that, after 5 hours of music, the cadence is finally RESOLVED! Such a relief.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Hoffmann and mamascarlatti: a right joker, that Wagner, innit? :lol: 5 hours til the bloody climax...! verismo it ain't. Thank you both for the explanation, it makes a lot of sense.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I used to have a "condensed" Tristan I would listen to when I needed a fix since it is infeasible to listen to the whole thing frequently. Neither the Prelude nor Liebestod were ever on it. They are terribly overrated given the incredible breadth and beauty of musical passion to be found between them.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

deggial said:


> Hoffmann and mamascarlatti: a right joker, that Wagner, innit? :lol: 5 hours til the bloody climax...! verismo it ain't. Thank you both for the explanation, it makes a lot of sense.


Haha! Referring to another thread on this forum, you're definitely my hero for managing to use the words _Wagner _and _innit _in the same sentence. Probably a world first.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I am flattered beyond belief, m'lady :tiphat:


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Couchie said:


> I used to have a "condensed" Tristan I would listen to when I needed a fix since it is infeasible to listen to the whole thing frequently. Neither the Prelude nor Liebestod were ever on it. They are terribly overrated given the incredible breadth and beauty of musical passion to be found between them.


care to share your condensed version? I'm coming from numbers opera so I usually get an incentive before I delve into deep waters. Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande was about the only one I just listened to despite the lack of (for me?) any climaxes.


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Boris Godunov. Enough said.


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## sparsity (Apr 10, 2012)

Personal favorite: Lohengrin. Watched it twice at the opera (same production)


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Well that's a tough one. Let me think...


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## Gilda (Jun 20, 2013)

It is hard for me to choose. But i think the opera Rigoletto, just because it was the first opera i watched when i was 15


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Gilda said:


> It is hard for me to choose. But i think the opera Rigoletto, just because it was the first opera i watched when i was 15


Welcome Gilda! I'm impressed - it took me quite a while to get to love Rigoletto. Good to see you, and I hope you enjoy it here!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

I'd say _Parsifal_, except people would consider me weird, so perhaps it should be _Don Giovanni_ as Flaubert opined.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't think too many people would think selecting Parsifal as the greatest ever is weird. Everybody's got their own one selection, of course, but I think Parsifal has definitely got to be "in the conversation" as the phrase goes ...


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> I don't think too many people would think selecting Parsifal as the greatest ever is weird. Everybody's got their own one selection, of course, but I think Parsifal has definitely got to be "in the conversation" as the phrase goes ...


Time for a _Parsifal_ joke!


> I can see Richard Wagner standing at the gates of heaven. "You have to let me in," he says. "I wrote _Parsifal_. It has to do with the Grail, Christ, suffering, pity and healing. Right?" And they answer, "Well, we read it and it makes no sense." SLAM.
> ― Philip K. Dick


 :lol:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Ring is one opera divided into 4 sections. It is over 15 hours long and unlike other opera composers Wagner wrote all the libretti. In it's monumentality and number of books written about it I don't think anything else comes close, except for Tristan by the same composer.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The Ring is one opera divided into 4 sections. It is over 15 hours long and unlike other opera composers Wagner wrote all the libretti. In it's monumentality and number of books written about it I don't think anything else comes close, except for Tristan by the same composer.


Now this wouldn't happen to have anything to do with the Ring cycle being the numero uno opera event in Seattle, would it?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Gilda said:


> It is hard for me to choose. But i think the opera Rigoletto, just because it was the first opera i watched when i was 15


Rigoletto was the first opera I ever bought on LP. It was the Solti set with Merrill, Moffo and Krauss. Very well sung but Solti did drive the music very hard.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

I would like to hear opinions on why _Don Giovanni_ is generally ranked ahead of _Le Nozze di Figaro_. For me, the music in the latter is more consistently brilliant. Have ensembles ever been written that are as wonderful as those at the end of Act 2 or Act 4 of _Figaro_? Not to mention that I find the libretto and storyline far more interesting because of all the twists and turns that are involved. It must also be said that the ending of _Figaro_ is a lot more satisfying, with its dual story of repentance and forgiveness. As much as I love _Don Giovanni_, the ending is just a bit anticlimatic (even though I know it's supposed to be that way).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Air said:


> I would like to hear opinions on why _Don Giovanni_ is generally ranked ahead of _Le Nozze di Figaro_. For me, the music in the latter is more consistently brilliant. Will you find ensembles as wonderful as those at the end of Act 2 or Act 4 of _Figaro_? Not to mention that I find the libretto and storyline far more interesting because of all the twists and turns that are involved. It must also be said that the ending of _Figaro_ is a lot more satisfying. As much as I love _Don Giovanni_, the ending is just a bit anticlimatic (even though I know it's supposed to be that way).


The libretto is not nearly as well organised. But the music is fantastic in the minor keys. The great penultimate scene where Giovanni is dragged to hell featuring the three baritone and the bass voices is surely one of the most thrilling ever written.
Figaro is certainly more perfect but the Don scores on dramatic thrill. 
But then, what about Cosi? Or the Flute? Maybe its best to stop debating and just enjoy them!
They are for me the greatest operas ever written.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> The Ring is one opera divided into 4 sections. It is over 15 hours long and unlike other opera composers Wagner wrote all the libretti. In it's monumentality and number of books written about it I don't think anything else comes close, except for Tristan by the same composer.


If one is permitted to count the Ring as a single entity, it is such a marvelous creation that I think it surely would have to be considered the greatest opera of them all.

On the other hand, the question almost needs to be broken in two: the greatest German opera of them all and the greatest Italian opera of them all (this allows some breathing room for those who have yet to discover their nascent love of Wagner...).

The greatest Italian opera is tougher. I know my favorites, but it would be hard to call any one of them the greatest of them all. Maybe Otello, but then Norma is more wonderful. Then there is I Puritani and Don Carlos. I don't know.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> If one is permitted to count the Ring as a single entity, it is such a marvelous creation that I think it surely would have to be considered the greatest opera of them all.
> 
> On the other hand, the question almost needs to be broken in two: the greatest German opera of them all and the greatest Italian opera of them all (this allows some breathing room for those who have yet to discover their nascent love of Wagner...).


Perhaps Strauss should be moved to live with the Italian operas, as it would be sad to see him not win any acclaim at all having been overrun by Mozart and Wagner in the German category! Although would you consider Mozart to be in the German category because his earlier works followed traditional Italian opera seria?



Hoffmann said:


> The greatest Italian opera is tougher. I know my favorites, but it would be hard to call any one of them the greatest of them all. Maybe Otello, but then Norma is more wonderful. Then there is I Puritani and Don Carlos. I don't know.


If I don't get to count _Don Giovanni_ as an Italian opera  then its a toss up for me between _Norma_ and _Don Carlo_.


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## Hoffmann (Jun 10, 2013)

Oh dear.

I should have known this would cause all kinds of questions I can't answer to everyone's satisfaction.

Mozart, of course, is German. Most of his operas are written in Italian. Good point. Now what do I do with my (otherwise) brilliant idea?


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

The greatest of them all!


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

Hoffmann said:


> If one is permitted to count the Ring as a single entity, it is such a marvelous creation that I think it surely would have to be considered the greatest opera of them all.


I agree that the Cycle as a single unified opera would definitely be the _One Ring to Rule Them All_ (to borrow from Tolkien).







But can you imagine the Cycle as a single opera?  I wonder if it has even been tried in history? A single end-to-end marathon performance? That would be a world record of endurance and stamina! An opera to rival the length of Robert Wilson's _The Life and Times of Joseph Stalin_!


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## Adeodatus100 (May 27, 2013)

The problem with a discussion like this is that the criteria for what makes a great opera have been different in different times and places. _If_ you think an opera has to be a _Gesamtkunstwerk_, then obviously Wagner is going to win hands down. But it's far from obvious that that's what an opera should be. I'm an out-and-out Wagnerolater, but I also recognise Mozart's operas - especially the Da Ponte operas - as great works of art. Puccini turns sentimentality into an art form (and I mean that as a compliment). Strauss at his best displays profound emotional insight. I found Britten's _Peter Grimes_ deeply affecting the first time I saw it. And so on, and so on. The answer wholly depends on what _makes_ a great opera.

But the answer's still _Parsifal_.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

DavidA said:


> The great penultimate scene where Giovanni is dragged to hell featuring the three baritone and the bass voices is surely one of the most thrilling ever written.


It is _the_ most thrilling opera scene to me.



DavidA said:


> But then, what about Cosi? Or the Flute? Maybe its best to stop debating and just enjoy them!


I will, next season I'll go to Figaro and a semi staged Cosi 

Don Giovanni is my favourite, but it doesn't mean it's the best. Then again, how will we judge what is the best.


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## jrmcmichael (Jun 25, 2013)

I do disagree with that... I am fairly new to Opera, I have only been a fan about the last 6 or 7 years (and I absolutely love it). I would have to say my favorite is La Traviata.... Especially the Anna Netrebko version I cannot stop watching on youtube.. I am also a fan of Faust and I am excited that my local Opera house will be performing Faust twice this year. Loehngrin is another one I like... I can say I haven't watched one or listened to one that I disliked... Yet.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

jrmcmichael said:


> Loehngrin is another one I like... I can say *I haven't watched one or listened to one that I disliked*... *Yet.*


Duke Gottfried awaits you:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Duke Gottfried awaits you:
> View attachment 20166


Don't listen to Tyrone. While not for the faint of heart this is GREAT.


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## tyroneslothrop (Sep 5, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't listen to Tyrone. While not for the faint of heart this is GREAT.


I agree. Very well sung. Very ambiguous which I suppose is fitting. But Gottfried is... interesting.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

_EDIT: Sorry, never mind. I've spent too much emotion on this production already._


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

tyroneslothrop said:


> Duke Gottfried awaits you:
> View attachment 20166


Cheeselovers version.......squeak squeak


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## Bix (Aug 12, 2010)

Well I'm back and I'm sorry to tell you that you are all wrong - the greatest opera ever written is........

*The Nose*

Joking of course.... I've learnt a little more about Wagner, I still can't quite get his ting innit.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Picking The Nose, disgusting habit.


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