# Bruckner 7 recommendations



## Merl

I own or have listened to quite a few Bruckner 7s but I was curious as to what other TC posters view as their go-to recordings of this work, and why. Go for it!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

Celibidache with Münchner Philharmoniker. Why? Because it's the best! 

Karajan is my 2nd choice.


----------



## Azol

*Chailly* with RSO Berlin gets my vote. I have heard countless B7s, but this one has a special place in my heart. One of the best Adagios you can hear on record period.
Definitely get *Abbado* B7 with Lucerne Festival Orchestra on DVD.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Celibidache and I have most every CD or DVD/Blu-ray of his Bruckner, but it became too obvious (and sometimes wrong) to give it as a front-runner recommendation to anybody beginning listening to Bruckner. I mean, there are other conductors and other fabulous recordings available! So look around...


----------



## Merl

Azol said:


> *Chailly* with RSO Berlin gets my vote. I have heard countless B7s, but this one has a special place in my heart. One of the best Adagios you can hear on record period.
> Definitely get *Abbado* B7 with Lucerne Festival Orchestra on DVD.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Celibidache and I have most every CD or DVD/Blu-ray of his Bruckner, but it became too obvious (and sometimes wrong) to give it as a front-runner recommendation to anybody beginning listening to Bruckner. I mean, there are other conductors and other fabulous recordings available! So look around...


I have the Chailly and Celi sets. Haven't heard Abbado though. Will investigate.


----------



## Azol

There is a Blu-ray of Celibidache with Berlin Philharmoniker which contains both the complete performance of B7 plus an hour-long documentary about Celibidache and BPO with many historical video snippets, musician interviews and fragments of rehearsal process. I recommend to get it for the documentary, which is revealing!









P.S. This B7 is easily one of the slowest too!


----------



## bz3

I'll second Karajan and add Bohm, both with VPO. I like Celibidache's a lot but he's not my top guy in this symphony. I've found Bruckner's 6th and 7th symphonies to be the ones I'm most picky about interpretation.


----------



## helenora

as Celi said : In Spain, France, Germany they play Bruckner several times a year, but do they really play Bruckner? They have never played Bruckner in their lives." So is my opinion. Celi forever. If I were him I would have used stronger words as for describing Celibidache vs everyone else, so called conductors


----------



## Becca

Klemperer and the Philharmonia ... and no, it is not slow - definitely not compared to a certain other conductor. More recently I have been listening to the Giulini/VPO and was particularly impressed at how he managed to avoid the 'jerked awake' sense I sometimes get in going from the 2nd to 3rd movements.


----------



## Vaneyes




----------



## Pugg

bz3 said:


> I'll second Karajan and add Bohm, both with VPO. I like Celibidache's a lot but he's not my top guy in this symphony. I've found Bruckner's 6th and 7th symphonies to be the ones I'm most picky about interpretation.


I second this post.


----------



## Haydn man

Vaneyes said:


>


I will go with this and throw in Gunter Wand as well


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

bz3 said:


> I'll second Karajan and add Bohm, both with VPO. I like Celibidache's a lot but he's not my top guy in this symphony. I've found Bruckner's 6th and 7th symphonies to be the ones I'm most picky about interpretation.


My favorite 6 is also Celibidache, by far. What's yours?


----------



## Azol

B6 is a tricky one to perform. Celibidache's approach is unique bringing unique results. It's like Whoa! I have never heard this Adagio before!
But the thread is about B7


----------



## ViatorDei

*Donald Runnicles* and the BBC Scottish Symphony is my all-round favorite for Bruckner's 7th. IMO, he really strikes the a very good balance of weight, breadth, and pathos in the music (particularly in the 2nd movement). The sound is very good too (recorded 2012 by Hyperion). As I've indicated elsewhere, only Karajan, in the third movement, outdoes him in my book.


----------



## Vaneyes

ViatorDei said:


> *Donald Runnicles* and the BBC Scottish Symphony is my all-round favorite for Bruckner's 7th. IMO, he really strikes the a very good balance of weight, breadth, and pathos in the music (particularly in the 2nd movement). The sound is very good too (recorded 2012 by Hyperion). As I've indicated elsewhere, only Karajan, in the third movement, outdoes him in my book.


A pleasant Bruckner surprise, Runnicles. Downside, it appears Hyperion is again only dabbling in Bruckner, as they did with Vanska's No. 3, with the same orchestra.

Runnicles' good also Bruckner 8 ('12 Proms) is available at YT. :tiphat:


----------



## ViatorDei

I actually thought Runnicle's 8th was a bit inferior to his 7th. It wasn't poor, by any means, but it came off a little lackluster in my opinion. I guess it just didn't work for me like his 7th does so wonderfully. (Or perhaps I'm just really picky when it comes to the 8th... ;-)


----------



## Dr Johnson

Have you heard *Georg Tintner's version* on Naxos?


----------



## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> Have you heard *Georg Tintner's version* on Naxos?


Hey Doc! I've got that, too. What I like about it is that he uses the Haas version despite the fact that Haas was "a bit of a naughty boy" during the 3rd Reich but he's gradually getting rehabilitated and some of his versions make more musical sense than Nowak's tinkerings.


----------



## Merl

ViatorDei said:


> *Donald Runnicles* and the BBC Scottish Symphony is my all-round favorite for Bruckner's 7th. IMO, he really strikes the a very good balance of weight, breadth, and pathos in the music (particularly in the 2nd movement). The sound is very good too (recorded 2012 by Hyperion). As I've indicated elsewhere, only Karajan, in the third movement, outdoes him in my book.


I've yet to hear this. Will remedy that soon. Of the current newer crop of recordings I really rate Simone Young's Bruckner 7. Lovely account and great sound. All of Young's Bruckner recordings are of a similar high quality, tbh.


----------



## Chronochromie

Haitink/Concertgebouw


----------



## Guest

Vaneyes said:


>


That one. Has a great combo of fabulous playing and sound...not to mention the interpretation.


----------



## Merl

I own quite a few versions and agree that Karajan's is a classic account. I've just listened to Runnicles account with the BBC SSO and agree that it is very special, too. Thanks for the heads-up, ViatorDei.


----------



## TxllxT

I keep returning to Lorin Maazel's interpretation, which has an hidden force, that I do miss in other interpretations (Karajan has it too, but Maazel's mystery-presence is stronger). No Celibidache's or Tintner's long-stretched chewing-gum versions convince me.


----------



## Guest

This is pretty good, as is the entire series.


----------



## Dr Johnson

TalkingHead said:


> Hey Doc! I've got that, too. What I like about it is that he uses the Haas version despite the fact that Haas was "a bit of a naughty boy" during the 3rd Reich but he's gradually getting rehabilitated and some of his versions make more musical sense than Nowak's tinkerings.


Tintner's versions (of all Bruckner's symphonies) were my introduction to the composer.

I didn't realise that Tintner had committed suicide until I read the review on ArkivMusic. Very sad.


----------



## elgar's ghost

No real surprises here - VPO/Karajan (DG), VPO/Bohm (DG) and BPO/Wand (RCA).


----------



## Guest

Dr Johnson said:


> Tintner's versions (of all Bruckner's symphonies) were my introduction to the composer.
> I didn't realise that Tintner had committed suicide until I read the review on ArkivMusic. Very sad.


Not only that, Doc, but he was also a boy chorister in Vienna and was directed on many times by Joseph Schalk who was a disciple (an old term meaning student) of Bruckner who maybe also over-tinkered with his master's scores.
What is particularly sad is that Tintner fled Nazi persecution in 1938 and ended up as a humble chicken farmer in New Zealand before his suicide.


----------



## bz3

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> My favorite 6 is also Celibidache, by far. What's yours?


The Celi, also comfortably. I also like Karajan's. I'm newish to Bruckner so I haven't heard a whole lot of them.


----------



## ViatorDei

Merl said:


> I own quite a few versions and agree that Karajan's is a classic account. I've just listened to Runnicles account with the BBC SSO and agree that it is very special, too. Thanks for the heads-up, ViatorDei.


You're welcome; I'm glad you liked it too. I think Young is fantastic with the 8th, but I will have to check out her 7th when I have the chance.

I should add that *Wand* is also brilliant as usual (as has been mentioned).

And as for *Celibidache*, his 7th really just doesn't do anything for me. I think it was on MusicWeb they said his account is just overly beautiful in its approach to the music, which I take to mean that he tries to revel in it to the music's own detriment. Frankly, I think it comes off just bland.


----------



## Vaneyes

ViatorDei said:


> I actually thought Runnicle's 8th was a bit inferior to his 7th. It wasn't poor, by any means, but it came off a little lackluster in my opinion. I guess it just didn't work for me like his 7th does so wonderfully. (Or perhaps I'm just really picky when it comes to the 8th... ;-)


There's the good, and there's the summit, and everything 'tween. Never feel guilty about distributing gold or silver stars.


----------



## Merl

Kontrapunctus said:


> This is pretty good, as is the entire series.


Another great one. Not heard the entire series, though.


----------



## Dr Johnson

TalkingHead said:


> Not only that, Doc, but he was also a boy chorister in Vienna and was directed on many times by Joseph Schalk who was a disciple (an old term meaning student) of Bruckner who maybe also over-tinkered with his master's scores.
> What is particularly sad is that Tintner fled Nazi persecution in 1938 and ended up as a humble chicken farmer in New Zealand before his suicide.


Wasn't Schalk one of those who thought that Bruckner was "a genius without talent"?

According to the Wiki article on Tintner he was living in Canada when he committed suicide. Nonetheless, I take your point.


----------



## Vaneyes

Dr Johnson said:


> ....
> According to the Wiki article on Tintner *he was living in Canada when he committed suicide*. Nonetheless, I take your point.


Furthermore...

http://www.andrys.com/gtmg1016.html


----------



## trem0lo

I own the Solti and Jochum sets—Solti's interpretations are very good but not as well-regarded as Jochum's, whom I like slightly better as a sensitive conductor. I prefer the Solti set, though, for the modern sound and Chicago Symphony brass... the Dresden orchestra's brass section sounds like they're about to have an aneurism at times and hence go out of tune and /or get very shrill. 

I picked up the Haitink 7 recently. Only listened to the Adagio but I loved it. I sang under Haitink for a Beethoven 9 years ago and the slow movement brought me to tears and was the highlight... the man can handle an adagio (which is what you want the 7 for anyway).


----------



## Scarr

I have the Klemperer on the original LPs. Super performance. It is measured but he maintains the line and flow very well. I also love Giulini in Bruckner.


----------



## Triplets

Vaneyes said:


>


That is my go to , followed by Wand


----------



## Xaltotun

Furtwängler is the best I've heard - no one else comes even close.


----------



## TxllxT

Xaltotun said:


> Furtwängler is the best I've heard - no one else comes even close.


Depends on the way you listen. I need to feel the dynamical build up physically. It's a pity, that Furtwängler is being accompanied with lousy recording quality...


----------



## Marc

My favourites change from time to time. 
At the moment I truly cherish Hans Rosbaud with the SüdWestFunk Orchester Baden-Baden... other cherished ones are Chailly/RSO Berlin, Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden and the ever reliable combination Haitink/Concertgebouw Orkest.


----------



## padraic

Karajan, Celi, Giulini


----------



## Marsilius

Otto Klemperer and the Philharmonia - and Oswald Kabasta with the Munich Philharmonic. Two very different approaches, but they both work.


----------



## Merl

Marc said:


> My favourites change from time to time.
> At the moment I truly cherish Hans Rosbaud with the SüdWestFunk Orchester Baden-Baden...


Anotehr one I need to hear. Thanks for the recommendation. It's nearly impossible to have heard EVERY Bruckner 7. Nice to have a few new 'uns to discover.


----------



## AClockworkOrange

A recording I would recommend is Klaus Tennstedt's live recording with the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Tennstedt may famous as a Mahler interpreter but he is also an excellent Brucknerian. I regard this recording very highly and it is one I revisit often.


----------



## realdealblues

My favorite is still Klemperer/Philharmonia followed by Jochum/Dresden. Wand, Chailly and Karajan round out my Top 5.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

Giulini/Vienna Phiharmonic, and a superb mono only performance with Oswald Kabasta directing the Munich Phiharmonic on the Preiser cd label.


----------



## Granate

There's this 360 View of the St. Florian Abbey while Remy Ballot and Altomonte play the Adagio from the 7th Symphony.

Clearly, by the hand movement, a Celibidache alumni.


----------



## padraic

At this point the one recording that surpasses the others for me is Karajan/Berlin on EMI.


----------



## Heck148

A great symphony for sure...several favorites
Solti/CSO
von Matacic/CzPO
Tennstedt/CSO (live -archival set)
I also like Walter/ColSO...
Solti is overall, the best, but the Adagio with Tennstedt is really great - incredible climax - the trumpet crescendo is amazing...
Best Scherzo goes to Barenboim/CSO on DG, from 70s....perfectly balanced, really rollicking...


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

padraic said:


> At this point the one recording that surpasses the others for me is Karajan/Berlin on EMI.


In modern stereo I agree with this. Karajan's ethereal sensuousness worked very well in Bruckner, especially compared to the stale, clinical treatment from some of his peers.

But for all recordings including pre-stereo Furtwängler is unsurpassed. Not only was he at one with the spiritual side of the works, but his gift for imbuing a sense of spontaneous recreation sets his interpretations apart. My favorite of his three 7ths (all live) is the Rome recording on Music & Arts. From the opening bars you feel as if you are being transported into another world. There was no composer to whom Furtwängler was more naturally suited than Bruckner, and it is no coincidence that his own compositions sounded quite Brucknerian.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

My favorite Bruckner after the 8th - I think he really nailed the finale here, all of his others can be too long and involved for me. I have not heard Furty in this yet, which I shall need to remedy. For me, Bruckner was Karajan's "sweet spot" composer; he could really make it flow smoothly and build drama naturally. I enjoy all of his Bruckner recordings and would have no problem recommending them. The recording of the 7th I heard first, and which brought me to the brink of tears at the climax of the Adagio, was the Bohm. I don't know if I'd have the same reaction to it nowadays, though. And I always recommend Gunter Wand for those just getting to know the composer, even if he lacks a bit of interpretive depth. Jochum with the BPO is very good (though hardly distinguishable from Karajan), but I never did get the love for his Dresden recordings; which are too quick, slick, and blasty in-your-face with the brass for me.


----------



## CnC Bartok

My favourite recordings are either the Jochum/Dresden, or Skrowaczewski, both of which are very powerful performances indeed. 

That said, two recent investments - as in over the past couple of years - have impressed: a real surprise for me in this Symphony was Paternostro in his ultra cheap set, it sounds like a real "occasion"; even better is the Gerd Schaller performance, possibly it rivals Jochum in my affections?

I also recently got the Haitink Concertgebouw set, and there are some fabulous performances in there, but I did find the 7th a bit underwhelming. Rather matter-of-fact, in fact.


----------



## Becca

CnC Bartok said:


> ...even better is the Gerd Schaller performance...


Yea verily........


----------



## CnC Bartok

Becca said:


> Yea verily........


I don't think there's a single dud in that set.....but No.7 is one of the highlights


----------



## DavidA

There are three magnificent Karajan recordings

The earlier DG

















Plus the very late









Then Jochum









Tintner









All of them have something interesting to say.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Allegro Con Brio said:


> But I never did get the love for his Dresden recordings; which are too quick, slick, and blasty in-your-face with the brass for me.


And also the brass are frequently out of tune. I don't think that could be helped, either. I think it's the type of instruments they're using.


----------



## Manxfeeder

DavidA said:


> Tintner
> 
> View attachment 132525
> 
> 
> All of them have something interesting to say.


I really like Tintner's recordings. Of course, they were what got me into Bruckner, and as they say, you always love your first love. But there is a spiritual element throughout that he captures very well.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Manxfeeder said:


> And also the brass are frequently out of tune. I don't think that could be helped, either. I think it's the type of instruments they're using.


That's the very distinctive Dresden sound and tuning differences - they are my favorite orchestra in the world, and I usually love the standout sound they produce. The Bruckner with Jochum pairs my favorite orchestra with one of my favorite conductors, but I just think Jochum misses the mark with his hurried conducting. Bruckner needs to have structure, not just sound like a bunch of brassy climaxes stacked on top of each other. Part of it might be due to the super-close miking, which sounds like the microphones are right inside the bells of the trumpets.


----------



## Becca

Maybe someone accidentally picked up a microphone instead of his mute :lol:


----------



## SONNET CLV

It's no secret that the Seventh ranks as my favorite Bruckner Symphony (which is also why I love the Rautavaara Third Symphony so much! -- the music that is playing in the background as I type) and I have quite a few versions on my LP and CD shelves -- it's one of the symphonies I most collect.

My top choice remains the very first version I ever heard, quite a few years back:

















This Max Rudolf/Cincinnati Symphony disc on DECCA started my love affair with Bruckner's music and the performance remains unforgettable. It's the one I compare all the others to, and I candidly admit that maybe part of my affection _is_ because this was the first Bruckner music I ever heard. But I still visit this disc on occasion and am always blown away by the interpretation.

I have the LP vinyl disc shown above, but I have since acquired a CD version (recorded from a good tape transfer by Haydn House).

















I still favor the viny copy for sound. Even though I've played this hundreds of times, I can still admire the performance through whatever groove grunge currently afflicts my oft-listened-to vinyl disc. A treasure.

And for those Bruckner Seventh fans who have not yet heard Einojuhani Rautavaara's Third Symphony, you have a real treat awaiting you. Bruckner in Finland! Give it a listen.


----------



## padraic

Wow that is a fast 7th


----------



## Guest

Karajan's 1970s recording is my favorite, as are all of the Symphonies that he recorded.


----------



## Daland

I always return to Celibidache with MPO. Mravinsky's recordings of 7, 8 & 9 are different, rather stiff.


----------



## Heck148

Daland said:


> I always return to Celibidache with MPO. Mravinsky's recordings of 7, 8 & 9 are different, rather stiff.


Never heard Mravinsky Bruckner 7or 8...I have his #9....quite good, but not my favorite (Solti, Walter, Barenboim)....


----------



## Merl

Dohnanyi's Cleveland 7th is well worth a listen (as is the rest of his near complete 3-9 cycle).


----------



## NLAdriaan

Gunter Wand with the BPO
Celi and his MPO
Karajan's 'letzte Aufnahme' with the VPO

This is all the recorded Bruckner 7 that I need.


----------



## Knorf

Like so many of you I was hooked on Bruckner long ago, and have followed whenever I was lead. There are quite a few excellent to very good Bruckner 7s out there, and I think my tastes in this regard are pretty mainstream, overall.

Here's just a couple I feel like mentioning right now:

Superb:

Karajan, Berliner Philharmoniker on DG. Yes, I choose this one over Vienna. But the Vienna account is O so close.

Excellent:

Abbado, Wiener Philharmoniker. I've shamefully not heard the Lucerne recording, and I know I should.
Barbirolli, Hallé. Totally underrated.
Blomstedt, Gewandhausorchester, Leipzig. The whole set is very good to superb.

Very good (worth hearing):
Herreweghe, Orchestre des Champs-Elysées. I risk my self-label as "mainstream" with this choice. But after many years of listening to this symphony, and thinking there was nothing left to learn about it, it was this recording that turned that conceit on its head, and revealed to me that, yes, I still had a lot to learn about this symphony. It's not my go-to first choice, but I am very glad I heard it, and I definitely still enjoy listening to it from time to time. For those who dismissed it in the past, consider giving it another go someday.

There are too many others to name in the "very good" category. Haitink, for example. I think I remember liking the Berlin account more than the Concertgebouw, but perhaps I'm misremembering. And everyone should hear Furtwängler/Berliner Philharmoniker at least once, especially the one from 1944. And I wished I liked Giulini's better; it's so highly regarded by musicians I usually agree with! But so it is. Maybe it will click with me someday.

WTF:
Celibidache, Münchner Philharmoniker (1994, the one that appeared on EMI). The interpretive concept here is so far out in left field, it's "not even wrong." There are moments of color and rapture that are truly amazing, that almost, but for me not quite, transcend the glacial slowness. But just almost. Rhythm is of critical importance in Bruckner, and this recording has almost none. But I'll still glad I own it, and I admit I pull it off the shelf once in awhile. But this is the sort of recording that makes string players say they hate Bruckner. In the words one the greatest "unknown" conductor of all time, Peter Erős, "Slow is not expressive. Slow is not beautiful. Slow is slow." What he meant: slow intrinsic to itself is not a musical value.

Solti, Chicago Symphony. I think Solti didn't "get" Bruckner, not really. This is the sort of recording that convinces woodwind players that they hate Bruckner. It is missing a proper sense of dramatic proportion.

Recordings I know I need to hear:
Aside from Abbado/Lucerne, there's Dohnányi/Cleveland (I think I tend to underrate Dohnányi) and Sinopoli/Staatskapelle Dresden. And I'm ashamed to admit I've never heard Klemperer/Philharmonia in No. 7. I'll get there!


----------



## Becca

Add to the need to hear ... Gerd Schaller & Philharmonia Festiva. After recently listening to quite a few well respected versions, that one moved to the top of my list.

I haven't listened to the Celi recordings but did watch part of the film of his rehearsal/performance with the Berlin Philharmonic and gave up in total frustration after the first movement.

P.S. I do remember Peter Erős from long ago when he was with the San Diego Symphony.


----------



## Knorf

Becca said:


> Add to the need to hear ... Gerd Schaller & Philharmonia Festiva.


Done. I also have the big Skrowaczewski box from Oehms coming, which I'm excited about.

Incidentally, I'm correcting the Klemperer/Philharmonia oversight as I type, well into the 3rd movement now. I think I'd put it into the "excellent" category. Love it!



> I haven't listened to the Celi recordings but did watch part of the film of his rehearsal/performance with the Berlin Philharmonic and gave up in total frustration after the first movement.


Totally understandable. Want to hear something truly bizarre? Check out Celi's Tchaikovsky 5, especially the 2nd movt.



> P.S. I do remember Peter Erős from long ago when he was with the San Diego Symphony.


Cool! I have a bootleg Brahms 4 from him and SDSO, and it is excellent. Actually, I have a few bootleg Erős broadcasts, including a Mahler 1 from the Cleveland Orchestra and a Mahler 6 from Helsinki, both outstanding! Such a pity his career never reached the level of exposure his talent deserved.

I was fortunate enough to perform Bruckner 7 with Erős. I knew it quite well by then, although I was technically still a student, but I admit his interpretation in our performance made a huge impact on me. Unforgettable! I don't have a recording of it, alas. While his conducting was outstanding, and overall the orchestra did a great job, I recall that the tubas (Wagner and contrabass) were pretty dire.


----------



## Heck148

Many orchestras come to grief when they must deal with Wagner tubas....the horn section plays these parts...the instruments are notoriously finicky and treacherous....Bruckner wrote many exposed section soli for the "tuben" ensemble - syms 7,8,9 are loaded with such passages...if you are looking for mistakes on recordings, the Wagner tubas are a prime source...


----------



## flamencosketches

Heck148 said:


> Many orchestras come to grief when they must deal with Wagner tubas....the horn section plays these parts...the instruments are notoriously finicky and treacherous....Bruckner wrote many exposed section soli for the "tuben" ensemble - syms 7,8,9 are loaded with such passages...if you are looking for mistakes on recordings, the Wagner tubes are a prime source...


I once heard someone say, "no composer better understood the beauty of the Wagner tuba than Bruckner". I got a kick out of that.


----------



## Knorf

Heck148 said:


> Many orchestras come to grief when they must deal with Wagner tubas...


That is for sure. Orchestras with a strong Bruckner tradition fare much better, in part because their horn players have spent so much more time practicing and playing the Wagner tubas, which are probably owned by the orchestra! But as you say, they're notoriously finicky and difficult to tune or control, especially without a lot of time invested on the specific instrument.

When I did Bruckner 7 with Erős, the orchestra had to rent the Tuben. The horn players worked very hard, but... well... you can expect only so much. And sadly it was our contrabass tubist who struggled most of all. He was a young and pretty weak player, totally in over his head.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> Solti, Chicago Symphony. I think Solti didn't "get" Bruckner, not really. This is the sort of recording that convinces woodwind players that they hate Bruckner. It is missing a proper sense of dramatic proportion


Interesting, I heard Solti/CSO perform B7 live in Carnegie Hall in the early 70s...it was quite spectacular, really thrilling...the dynamic range of the orchestra was phenomenal, never heard anything like it....we didn't "hear" the actual beginning string tremolo - it just "appeared" out of thin air...quite magical...of course, the fortissimos were shattering...Solti was always a master at the big long buildup, the slow-building tension released with orgasmic climax...for me, this approach works splendidly with Bruckner, and Wagner....Solti excelled with the #7/Adagio, but the greatest I've ever heard is the Tennstedt/CSO live, on the CSO archival set - <CSO 20th Century>...the crescendo is amazing!!


----------



## Knorf

Re: the Solti/CSO Bruckner 7, here it is on YouTube. Give it a try, see what you think. Obviously the sound quality on YouTube is quite poor, but we must make allowances.

Mvt. I
Mvt. II
Mvt. III
Mvt. IV

It was the first Bruckner recording I purchased for myself, in 1988 and oddly enough on cassette, just before I gave up cassettes forever in favor of CDs. I never bothered to replace it, and I soon realized that so many other recordings are much better. In fact, I used to think (before I heard any others) that I just didn't care much for Bruckner 7. That was Solti's fault, if you ask me.

The first movement starts out fairly promising, but somehow just fails to cohere. The pacing to my ears is all wrong. Solti pulls back when the music should move forward, and moves forward when it should pull back. The effect, for me, is pretty weird. The second movement comes across as much slower than it is, because it has so little forward motion. It's beautifully played, but inert. The third movement is ok; the "hunting" theme come off fine, if relatively unexciting because there is little danger, but the trio goes absolutely nowhere. It's as if Solti thought it were another slow movement! Um, no. Just, no. The fourth movement again starts pretty well, if again a bit inert rhythmically, but soon is merely a vulgar brass-fest. Then, once again, Solti gives up all forward motion by slamming on the brakes. The effect is inorganic and mannered. I'll note that the brass are frequently distressingly out of tune as well. I mean, sure, Wagner tubas-but this is the CSO!

Solti's dramatic pacing, in my opinion, was best in opera; I don't think he was nearly as strong in large-scale, slow developing, purely symphonic structures. I also am not fond of his famous Mahler 8, which I find fundamentally misconceived. I struggled with Mahler 8 for so long, because Solti was the only recording I owned, and it didn't click at all until, guess what, I purchased someone else's recording (Gielen, which I still adore.)

Now that I've finally heard Klemperer/Philharmonia for Bruckner 7, how I wish _that one_ had been the Bruckner 7 I heard first!

But if I'm honest, I developed my Bruckner addiction soon enough anyway.

Disclaimer: you might well and honestly disagree with everything I wrote here.


----------



## Knorf

Becca said:


> Add to the need to hear ... Gerd Schaller & Philharmonia Festiva.


Ooooh! That Bruckner 9 (combined in a set with 4 and 7) has the Carragan fourth movement completion! Ok, that's piqued my interest even more.

But what will my wife do to me if I buy _another_ Bruckner set?


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> That is for sure. Orchestras with a strong Bruckner tradition fare much better, in part because their horn players have spent so much more time practicing and playing the Wagner tubas, which are probably owned by the orchestra! But as you say, they're notoriously finicky and difficult to tune or control, especially without a lot of time invested on the specific instrument.


True, orchestras like Chicago and ViennaPO handle these parts very well...I believe you are correct, the major orchestras own their own set of Wagner tubas.
The brass playing for Bruckner requires a first rate section...balance, intonation, articulation, tone quality must be really impeccable or it shows up immediately...
I remember a friend played for me a Wand recording, Bruckner 9, or 6..can't remember for sure...with one of the German orchestras...the 2nd trombone consistently overpowered the section, stuck out like a sore thumb...gawd, quickly became annoying...constantly blasting away, covering the higher lines with a blatty, edgy tone....you don't hear that with Chicago or Vienna, LondonSO, CzechPO....


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> Re: the Solti/CSO Bruckner 7, here it is on YouTube--
> Disclaimer: you might well and honestly disagree with everything I wrote here.


Haha!! interesting how differently people respond to the same music...I find no problem with Solti's tempos, and as I said, he handles the crucial tension-release action most splendidly... for me, few other conductors come close.He's my favorite Bruckner conductor, overall. (Walter, von Matacic, Barenboim are also favorites)
Karajan is the non-starter for me...the "one sound fits all" (round, smooth, no sharp edges) formula puts me to sleep, and the held back, suppressed sound turns me off - to me, it sounds like "control room fortissimos"....but I don't know what sort of engineering was done..


----------



## Knorf

Heck148 said:


> Haha!! interesting how differently people respond to the same music...I find no problem with Solti's tempos...


You'll note I didn't criticize Solti's tempos.



> Karajan is the non-starter for me...the "one sound fits all" (round, smooth, no sharp edges) formula puts me to sleep, and the held back, suppressed sound turns me off - to me, it sounds like "control room fortissimos"....but I don't know what sort of engineering was done..


It's not true that Karajan's esthetic includes "one sound fits all," especially not in Bruckner. It is true the sound is always beautiful and never crass, but without edge? No, there is plenty of edge when it is needed, for example Bruckner 9, mvt. II, which is savage. Also the dynamic range is huge, especially in the remastered Blu Ray Audio edition that came out last year. I have to wonder in what format and under what circumstances you heard Karajan's Bruckner! But, as always, YMMV.

In any case, praise for Karajan's Bruckner 7 is certainly widespread. The only dispute usually is which of his is the best, of the three!

I don't like all Karajan. For example, his Mozart is not to my taste at all, nor his digital Beethoven cycle. But his Bruckner is top shelf.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> It's not true that Karajan's esthetic includes "one sound fits all," especially not in Bruckner. It is true the sound is always beautiful and never crass, but without edge? No, there is plenty of edge ....... the dynamic range is huge, especially in the remastered Blu Ray Audio edition that came out last year. I have to wonder in what format and under what circumstances you heard Karajan's Bruckner! But, as always, YMMV.


I find HvK to be most monotonous (mono-tone-ous]...he seems to approach all music with this smooth, rounded off, no sharp edges, creamy sonority... I heard Karajan/BPO live many years ago, it was good, but certainly not overwhelming in sound...sounded rather restrained, in live performance...yes, the recordings have a big dynamic range, but that prompts my comment about "control room fortissimos"...vK did not want the loud, hard-edged sound, esp from the brass...so, play forte, then mix it into the product played back at fortissimo...iow, you get a forte sound, electronically enhanced to fortissimo...the live sound was closer to forte...I don't know for sure if that was the engineering used, but the live sound didn't match the recorded sound.
I witnessed a similar phenomenon with Ormandy/PhilaOrch - the recordings were engineered to produce the "Philadelphia Sound" - very rich, glossy strings, rather recessed brass and woodwinds, all pasted together in short takes...Philadelphia didn't sound that way live - they sounded great, very strong brass, and fine woodwind section sound....the recording engineers were altering the live sound to a pre-conceived "desirable"sonority



> In any case, praise for Bruckner 7 is certainly widespread.


I couldn't care less...that suppressed, ultra-controlled style turns me off..I've tried many times to get into it..just can't..


----------



## Becca

Knorf said:


> Ooooh! That Bruckner 9 (combined in a set with 4 and 7) has the Carragan fourth movement completion! Ok, that's piqued my interest even more.
> 
> But what will my wife do to me if I buy _another_ Bruckner set?


Even better, Schaller did his own completion of the 9th, actually twice and my opinion is that his revised version is the most convincing, more so than the Carragan or SMBC.


----------



## Becca

Regarding the Wagner tuba in the Bruckner 7th...


----------



## NLAdriaan

Knorf said:


> Ooooh! That Bruckner 9 (combined in a set with 4 and 7) has the Carragan fourth movement completion! Ok, that's piqued my interest even more.
> 
> But what will my wife do to me if I buy _another_ Bruckner set?


Just listen to your better half and get the *incomplete* Bruckner set (4,5,7,8,9) by Gunter Wand and the Berliner Philharmoniker on RCA. These recordings are the most natural and fresh Bruckners on the market and I did listen to quite a few. Other conductors including Abbado used to sit in during Wand's rehearsals for a Bruckner masterclass. During the Karajan era, Wand was not welcome to conduct the BPO, it does not take much imagination why.

And forget the completed 9th, it is superfluous. There are plenty of original Bruckner notes available.


----------



## elgar's ghost

^
^

Was there any word on whether Wand would have recorded the 6th with Berlin had he lived


----------



## Schwammerl

The BBC Record Review programme on Saturday mornings has featured a one hour slot called Building a Library for more years than I care to remember, in which an expert reviews different recordings of a "library" piece. It is an excellent way to get a feel for different performances and recordings, and indeed of the piece itself if you've never heard it. It does offer a single recommendation at the end, although it's usually emphasized that this is a personal choice from several contenders.

Looking up the Bruckner 7 programme at https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p02f58wv, John Deathridge's final recommendation was the earlier Haitink recording (1966). His DVD recommendation was Abbado, historical was Furtwangler in 1949.


----------



## Merl

NLAdriaan said:


> During the Karajan era, Wand was not welcome to conduct the BPO, it does not take much imagination why.
> .


As usual (and this is the 2nd time I've countered this comment on here) the simplistic answer is to blame Karajan for Wand not working with the BPO back then. The only conductor Karajan refused point blank as a guest ("over my dead body") was Harnoncourt due to Harnoncourt's "disrespect". Remember it was Karajan who hired an unknown Harnoncourt to the VPO without a rehearsal ("I like the way he sits") and then years later, when beginning his own conducting career Harnoncourt was asked about Karajan's conducting and working under him to which Harnoncourt glibly replied "He's a good Porsce driver". Harnoncourt never apologised for the comment, which he claims he made in jest and never really meant, and Karajan never forgave him for it, deeming it as massively disrespectful and a personal slap in the face (Karajan rarely had a bad word for his fellow conductors) .

It's simply not true that Wand wasn't welcome as a guest conductor of the BPO. Karajan knew Wand and bore no animosity to him whatsoever (they were almost stablemates over at EMI but Wand goolishly turned Legge's offer down). All guest conductors were approved in advance by the orchestra not just Karajan. As the BPO were a recording orchestra they would often invite conductors who would record (or just perform live) something different (usually that Karajan didn't have in his repertoire). Big names or 'The next big thing' would be hired to bring in the punters and Wand was not a big name amongst the public back then (even if he was highly respected). He wouldn't have put bums on seats in the same way as Kubelik, Abbado, Levine, etc would have back then. They had little downtime between tours and recording. Apart from the immense rehearsal time Wand would have needed (he was an orchestral perfectionist often demanding 8 or more sessions of rehearsal time which meant that only radio orchestras could afford him) he was also contractually tied to a horrific deal he made with the French music label, Club Francais du Disque, which killed his career for 30 years until he could resume recording elsewhere in the mid 80s. By then he was a very old man. Wand, also, was also known to be difficult to please and sarcastic with musicians, His demands for long rehearsal periods meant that most American orchestras, for example, wouldn't entertain him and whilst he was hugely respected for the results he achieved he was far from the gentle, frail old man he appeared during his Indian Summer. Most agreed that he actually got worse as he got older and in his later years he became extremely temperamental at rehearsals and gained a reputation for a shocking temper (throwing things, shouting, etc) often directed at his players . He could be cantankerous but he also had boyish charm which endeared him to people. In later years, orchestras often admired him and loved the results they got from working with him but not the means to get there.


----------



## Heck148

Merle - interesting info regarding Gunther Wand...I knew he was demanding, wanted extensive rehearsal time, and was sarcastic, even abusive, towards orchestra musicians. I didn't know about his French recording deal, or some of his other unfortunate choices....regarding his (mis)behavior towards musicians, he was a generation too late....the age of podium tyrants had passed- Toscanini, Rodzinski, Reiner, Szell, Stokowski etc..raging temper tantrums, Vesuvian podium eruptions, verbal abuse had gone away...


----------



## DavidA

Merl said:


> As usual (and this is the 2nd time I've countered this comment on here) the simplistic answer is to blame Karajan for Wand not working with the BPO back then. The only conductor Karajan refused point blank as a guest ("over my dead body") was Harnoncourt due to Harnoncourt's "disrespect". Remember it was Karajan who hired an unknown Harnoncourt to the VPO without a rehearsal ("I like the way he sits") and then years later, when beginning his own conducting career Harnoncourt was asked about Karajan's conducting and working under him to which Harnoncourt replied "He's a good Porsce driver". Harnoncourt never apologised for the comment, which he claims he made in jest, and Karajan never forgave him for it, deeming it as massively respectful and a personal slap in the face (Karajan rarely had a bad word for his fellow conductors) .
> 
> It's simply not true that Wand wasn't welcome as a guest conductor of the BPO. Karajan knew Wand and bore no animosity to him whatsoever (they were almost stablemates over at EMI but Wand goolishly turned Legge's offer down). All guest conductors were approved in advance by the orchestra not just Karajan. As the BPO were a recording orchestra they would often invite conductors who would record (or just perform live) something different (usually that Karajan didn't have in his repertoire). Big names or 'The next big thing' would be hired to bring in the punters and Wand was not a big name amongst the public back then (even if he was highly respected). He wouldn't have put bums on seats in the same way as Kubelik, Abbado, Levine, etc would have back then. They had little downtime between tours and recording. Apart from the immense rehearsal time Wand would have needed (he was an orchestral perfectionist often demanding 8 or more sessions of rehearsal time which meant that only radio orchestras could afford him) he was also contractually tied to a horrific deal he made with the French music label, Club Francais du Disque, which killed his career for 30 years until he could resume recording elsewhere in the mid 80s. By then he was a very old man. Wand, also, was also known to be difficult to please and sarcastic with musicians, His demands for long rehearsal periods meant that most American orchestras, for example, wouldn't entertain him and whilst he was hugely respected for the results he achieved he was far from the gentle, frail old man he appeared during his Indian Summer. Most agreed that he actually got worse as he got older and in his later years he became extremely temperamental at rehearsals and gained a reputation for a shocking temper (throwing things, shouting, etc) often directed at his players . He could be cantankerous but he also had boyish charm which endeared him to people. In later years, orchestras often admired him and loved the results they got from working with him but not the means to get there.


Not sure about the thing between Karajan and Harnoncourt. Harnoncourt said later: "I still don't understand why our relations went bad," he says. „Perhaps it was due to his advisers. Karajan loved to perform Bach, but every time he produced a choral recording it would be compared to mine, not always favourably. I wrote to him once, and got a very nice reply, but it remained impossible for me to work in Salzburg."
I don't think there was an actual falling out between them because I remember Harnoncourt saying how they met on a mountain walk and chatted in a cordial manner. Of course that did not suit the media who like to make gossip out of anything.


----------



## Merl

DavidA said:


> Not sure about the thing between Karajan and Harnoncourt. Harnoncourt said later: "I still don't understand why our relations went bad," he says. „Perhaps it was due to his advisers. Karajan loved to perform Bach, but every time he produced a choral recording it would be compared to mine, not always favourably. I wrote to him once, and got a very nice reply, but it remained impossible for me to work in Salzburg."
> I don't think there was an actual falling out between them because I remember Harnoncourt saying how they met on a mountain walk and chatted in a cordial manner. Of course that did not suit the media who like to make gossip out of anything.


Hmmm, Harnoncourt knew exactly why relations broke down. The Porsche quote from him was correctly attributed by several media sources and his reference to Salzburg only backs this up (see article below). They did meet occasionally afterwards and both men were polite and cordial but Karajan certainly kept him out of Salzburg and Harnoncourt knew it. Interesting too that in Osbourne's Karajan book Harnoncourt doesn't get a single mention. Nah, it wasnt just the media hype.

"We learn something surprising in the press release of the Salzburg Festival to salute the memory of Nikolaus Harnoncourt. The Viennese institution recognizes in fact that it had a role to play in the sidelining for 20 years of the recently deceased chief. The festival agreed to the demand of Herbert Von Karajan, whilst alive, that Harnoncourt would never direct in Salzburg"

https://www.francemusique.fr/actualite-musicale/quand-karajan-interdisait-harnoncourt-de-diriger-au-festival-de-salzbourg-705


----------



## Knorf

NLAdriaan said:


> Just listen to your better half and get the *incomplete* Bruckner set (4,5,7,8,9) by Gunter Wand and the Berliner Philharmoniker on RCA.


I am familiar with much of Wand's Bruckner, including with the NDR and Köln. Many favorites among those.



> And forget the completed 9th, it is superfluous. There are plenty of original Bruckner notes available.


I am very, very much in disagreement with this. The completed last movement is far more authentic Bruckner than not, for one. There is substantially more authentic Bruckner in the completions than there is Mozart in his Requiem Mass, for example. And I do not agree that a D minor symphony ending in E Major is in any way satisfactory, at least not for a tonal composer, which Bruckner was. Mahler was still to come.

I know the 4th movement of No. 9 from the fascinating Harnoncourt concert/lecture (not a completion, but rather the very big portions that are 100% Bruckner, and constitute most of the movement), and from the Rattle/BPO recording.

I'm interested in a Bruckner 9th, with the completed 4th movement, led by a better conductor than Rattle. His Bruckner is nothing to get excited about, in my opinion.


----------



## Knorf

I debated with myself whether to reply to this, but here goes:



Heck148 said:


> I find HvK ... to approach all music with this smooth, rounded off, no sharp edges, creamy sonority...


This is objectively _not true_. It just isn't. You may as well try to convince me that the high noon sky is purple with green blotches. I acknowledge that Karajan does do those things at times (creamy smoothness), and at times he does it when I for sure would prefer something else, but not that I've ever heard in Bruckner, or Richard Strauss, or any number of other Karajan specialities. Karajan also went for a smoother approach more often later in his career than he did earlier (for example, in his digital Beethoven cycle, which I don't like.)

But it's flatly not true that he always did that. His '63 Beethoven cycle, for example, is very different.



> I heard Karajan/BPO live many years ago, it was good, but certainly not overwhelming in sound...sounded rather restrained, in live performance...yes, the recordings have a big dynamic range, but that prompts my comment about "control room fortissimos"...vK did not want the loud, hard-edged sound, esp from the brass...so, play forte, then mix it into the product played back at fortissimo...iow, you get a forte sound, electronically enhanced to fortissimo...


First of all, I am never fooled by these sorts of shenanigans. I've been a professional orchestral bassoonist for over thirty years (by the way, I also used to play tuba), and have heard more top-notch orchestras live in person than I can count. I am also a professional composer (publications, commissions, grants, awards) with a strong background in recording, sound editing and manipulation, and sound synthesis and design. I know very well what brass instruments sound like when they play full-bore.

There are no electronics anywhere, not even now, that will _convincingly_ morph the tone of brass instruments playing mezzo-forte, or even forte, into what they sound like at fortissimo. There are also no electronics that will _convincingly_ add a marcato edge to the attack, or turn a legato note into staccato. There just aren't. If those sounds are in the recording, as there are when asked for in Karajan's Bruckner, then the players played them that way.

Turning up the gain will not work at all to add marcato, make something legato into staccato, or make the tone fortissimo. Electronic alterations of the kind you allege are always extremely obvious, because they come off as very electronic sounding, even now in digital-everything 2020. Doing anything like that analogue _in the 1970s_? Forget it. They wouldn't have even tried back then, before the digital era. And even now, outside of Hollywood, you don't hear anyone trying anything like that, because it won't fool anyone.

You can tweak balance, for sure, but gross changes become obvious. You can add reverb (again, too much is obvious.) You can change tempo without changing pitch (which was not possible pre-digital), but again if you do too much it is obvious. You can insert a right note where there was a wrong one (again, too much, too obvious.)

But you can't make a legato, mezzo-forte trombone sound like a fortissimo trombone with accents, and fool anyone with a modicum of experience, not even now, certainly not pre-digital.

(Interestingly, in my experience with Deutsche Grammophon recordings, if they did anything to the brass it was to turn them _down_, not up. You can hear this clearly for example in the Leonard Bernstein NY Phil. recording on DG of Harris and Schuman's 3rd Symphonies. There are moments when the tone of the brass is fortissimo, but they are heard mezzo-forte in the balance. It's a shame. I hope someday someone takes the masters of that recording and corrects the balance.)

Second of all, there are numerous bootlegs of Karajan live performances floating around, with no engineering of any kind. The orchestra if anything sounds _edgier_ in many live performances under Karajan than it does in the studio recordings.

So, in conclusion, I don't know what you heard. But whatever it was, it clearly does not and cannot represent Karajans' recorded legacy as a whole, especially not from the pre-digital era.


----------



## DavidA

Merl said:


> Hmmm, Harnoncourt knew exactly why relations broke down. The Porsche quote from him was correctly attributed by several media sources and his reference to Salzburg only backs this up (see article below). They did meet occasionally afterwards and both men were polite and cordial but Karajan certainly kept him out of Salzburg and Harnoncourt knew it. Interesting too that in Osbourne's Karajan book Harnoncourt doesn't get a single mention. Nah, it wasnt just the media hype.
> 
> "We learn something surprising in the press release of the Salzburg Festival to salute the memory of Nikolaus Harnoncourt. The Viennese institution recognizes in fact that it had a role to play in the sidelining for 20 years of the recently deceased chief. The festival agreed to the demand of Herbert Von Karajan, whilst alive, that Harnoncourt would never direct in Salzburg"
> 
> https://www.francemusique.fr/actualite-musicale/quand-karajan-interdisait-harnoncourt-de-diriger-au-festival-de-salzbourg-705


I don't think there was any question that relationships broke down at least on a musical level. I think it was probably that they both had very different views on how music should be interpreted especially at the time when Harnoncourt was riding high as high priest of HIP. Karajan obviously didn't want that approach at Salzburg. I don't think Osborne's book tells us anything because it was written after Karajan's Death And there is no obvious reason why he should have left Harnoncourt out if the latter had been significant. There are others included in the book which HvK had disputes with. With Wand it was a completely different matter of course. During Karajan'stime no-one had really heard of him.


----------



## Merl

I like Osbourne's book cos it doesn't come across as sycophantic. It's quite honest , and, whilst obviously it is written from the perspective of someone who was a friend, he's not afraid to admit there were misteps in Karajan's career. It paints a picture of a man who was way more complicated than Lebrecht and Co made him out to be. As far as his live performances, I never got to see him live but those performances I do have of him live are far from smooth and homogenised.


----------



## DavidA

Merl said:


> I like Osbourne's book cos it doesn't come across as sycophantic. It's quite honest , and, whilst obviously it is written from the perspective of someone who was a friend, he's not afraid to admit there were misteps in Karajan's career. It paints a picture of a man who was way more complicated than Lebrecht and Co made him out to be. As far as his live performances, I never got to see him live but those performances I do have of him live are far from smooth and homogenised.


Yes I think Osborne tries to tell it as it is in a fair minded way and present the man fairly. He is not afraid to say when he thought HvK was being pretty stupid in the run-up to an interview. He was obviously a very complicated man who loved power and did it through music. Fortunately he was very good music. John Culshaw probably has it right when he called him, 'ruthless and unpredictable'. He was an extremely single-minded man and ruthless in getting where he got. But of course nice men don't generally do what he did! Of course he was not alone in being that way among conductors but the howls of disapproval generally come because he was so successful. I must say that the live performances of opera I have from him or anything but smooth. The opposite.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf - I'm not saying that gain-riding alters the tone of the instruments....exactly the opposite...the mezzo, forte tone - dark, round, resonant, not edgy, not brilliant - played back at louder volume will sound louder, but will not take on the tone quality of fortissimo playing....live concert is proof of the pudding...I played principal bassoon professionally for over 40 years, contracted, personnel managed for some 25 years..I know what my ears tell me. 
A good friend of mine, a professional recording engineer showed that it is quite possible to produce that sort of effect....I suspect that went on, very much like the Philadelphia/CBS processing occurred..Decca/London did it with LAPO (alot) and Chicago to some extent...
To me, HvK consistently uses excessive legato, smooth articulations, and suppressed climaxes (or maybe his BPO guys just couldn't do it??)...I can cite examples til the cows come home of examples of this - Sibelius Finlandia, Finale of sym #2, (compare to LondonSO, NBC, NYPO - these guys are blowing, full bore, HvK sounds like 85%)....ending of Bruckner 8, Strauss D&T, Beethoven Sym #5 (la-la-la laah laah laah soft articulation); Honegger Sym 3/III, the "Stupid march"...this isn't supposed to be "nice"...try Mravinsky/LenPO, now that is nasty, a lot of bite...
Anyway, enjoy your HvK, to each his own...it always leaves me wanting more...


----------



## Knorf

Alright, Heck148. I've made this. The Bruckner 9 Challenge, COVID-19 edition!

Come on down, and tell me if you think one of those is Karajan, or not, and if so, which one! Or not. Maybe none of them are.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> Alright, Heck148. I've made this. The Bruckner 9 Challenge, COVID-19 edition!
> 
> Come on down, and tell me if you think one of those is Karajan, or not, and if so, which one! Or not. Maybe none of them are.


Not sure I can fully partake here, at this time..I'm away from home, out of country for the foreseeable future... my cell phone is all I've got. I'll give it a listen...


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Karajan is not one of my favorite conductors - for the most part I totally agree with Heck148's criticism of excessive legato, smoothness, fluffiness, superficiality, etc. etc. I have a strong aversion to his Sibelius, Mahler, Brahms, and other of my favorite composers which he tries to turn into light buttery treats and robs them of their essential depth. But there's two composers that, for me, represent his sweet spot - Strauss and Bruckner. The orchestral polish and cohesion works really well in the Strauss tone-poems, and that rich blended sound produces deeply satisfying sonic effects. In Bruckner, I think he really understands the structure. He makes things flow smoothly and naturally, with those lush strings and burnished brass making something meaningful out of every phrase. It's very detail-oriented, and he makes these scores glimmer with life with the attention he lavishes upon them. I really don't like Bruckner that sounds like an epic Herculean struggle (Solti, Chailly, Jochum/Dresden). I like it patient, integrated, and wisely conducted with the overall structure in mind so it doesn't just sound like big, brassy climax after big, brassy climax. You can still have struggle and drama (which is definitely essential so it doesn't become homogeneous and soporific), but it needs to be tempered - I don't want to hear the same brass players blowing their lungs out every 5 minutes in a 25-minute movement. There are high points in the scores, and the structure needs to artfully and inexorably lead up to that ultimate, shattering climax - the effect is nullified if every peak and valley sounds the same. Bruckner takes a very skilled, very imaginative conductor to pull off; and I don't generally associate Karajan with those terms. But he really is the real deal with this composer. These performances have real gravitas and monumentality, and it proves that you don't need to go over the top in order with the histrionics in order to have great Bruckner.


----------



## Knorf

Heck148 said:


> Not sure I can fully partake here, at this time..I'm away from home, out of country for the foreseeable future... my cell phone is all I've got. I'll give it a listen...


No worries if you can't. It's just for fun! Safe travels. Not a fun time for that!


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> No worries if you can't. It's just for fun! Safe travels. Not a fun time for that!


Thanx for putting this together, interesting idea!! I'm afraid the dinky speaker on my cell phone isn't going to reveal too much...


----------



## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Karajan is not one of my favorite conductors - for the most part I totally agree with Heck148's criticism of excessive legato, smoothness, fluffiness, superficiality, etc. etc. *I have a strong aversion to his Sibelius, Mahler, Brahms, and other of my favorite composers which he tries to turn into light buttery treats and robs them of their essential depth.* But there's two composers that, for me, represent his sweet spot - Strauss and Bruckner. The orchestral polish and cohesion works really well in the Strauss tone-poems, and that rich blended sound produces deeply satisfying sonic effects. In Bruckner, I think he really understands the structure. He makes things flow smoothly and naturally, with those lush strings and burnished brass making something meaningful out of every phrase. It's very detail-oriented, and he makes these scores glimmer with life with the attention he lavishes upon them. I really don't like Bruckner that sounds like an epic Herculean struggle (Solti, Chailly, Jochum/Dresden). I like it patient, integrated, and wisely conducted with the overall structure in mind so it doesn't just sound like big, brassy climax after big, brassy climax. You can still have struggle and drama (which is definitely essential so it doesn't become homogeneous and soporific), but it needs to be tempered - I don't want to hear the same brass players blowing their lungs out every 5 minutes in a 25-minute movement. There are high points in the scores, and the structure needs to artfully and inexorably lead up to that ultimate, shattering climax - the effect is nullified if every peak and valley sounds the same. *Bruckner takes a very skilled, very imaginative conductor to pull off; and I don't generally associate Karajan with those terms.* But he really is the real deal with this composer. These performances have real gravitas and monumentality, and it proves that you don't need to go over the top in order with the histrionics in order to have great Bruckner.


Are you really listening to the same Sibelius, Mahler, Brahms, that I have in my library played by Karajan? You might not care for them but to say he turns them into 'light buttery treats'? Just thinking of the towering Tapiola in my library or the Mahler 9. Or in fact any of his recordings by those composers. Are you listening to the same recordings as I am? Or do you HvK record some things with the Boston Pops Orchestra? And to say Karajan wasn't a skilled conductor? Well, there were some pretty skilled musicians who played under him who would have disagreed with you. No problem with you not liking his conducting but the reasons you give appear to be incredible to me and unrecognisable with the recordings I have.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Merl said:


> As usual (and this is the 2nd time I've countered this comment on here) the simplistic answer is to blame Karajan for Wand not working with the BPO back then. The only conductor Karajan refused point blank as a guest ("over my dead body") was Harnoncourt due to Harnoncourt's "disrespect". Remember it was Karajan who hired an unknown Harnoncourt to the VPO without a rehearsal ("I like the way he sits") and then years later, when beginning his own conducting career Harnoncourt was asked about Karajan's conducting and working under him to which Harnoncourt glibly replied "He's a good Porsce driver". Harnoncourt never apologised for the comment, which he claims he made in jest and never really meant, and Karajan never forgave him for it, deeming it as massively disrespectful and a personal slap in the face (Karajan rarely had a bad word for his fellow conductors) .
> 
> It's simply not true that Wand wasn't welcome as a guest conductor of the BPO. Karajan knew Wand and bore no animosity to him whatsoever (they were almost stablemates over at EMI but Wand goolishly turned Legge's offer down). All guest conductors were approved in advance by the orchestra not just Karajan. As the BPO were a recording orchestra they would often invite conductors who would record (or just perform live) something different (usually that Karajan didn't have in his repertoire). Big names or 'The next big thing' would be hired to bring in the punters and Wand was not a big name amongst the public back then (even if he was highly respected). He wouldn't have put bums on seats in the same way as Kubelik, Abbado, Levine, etc would have back then. They had little downtime between tours and recording. Apart from the immense rehearsal time Wand would have needed (he was an orchestral perfectionist often demanding 8 or more sessions of rehearsal time which meant that only radio orchestras could afford him) he was also contractually tied to a horrific deal he made with the French music label, Club Francais du Disque, which killed his career for 30 years until he could resume recording elsewhere in the mid 80s. By then he was a very old man. Wand, also, was also known to be difficult to please and sarcastic with musicians, His demands for long rehearsal periods meant that most American orchestras, for example, wouldn't entertain him and whilst he was hugely respected for the results he achieved he was far from the gentle, frail old man he appeared during his Indian Summer. Most agreed that he actually got worse as he got older and in his later years he became extremely temperamental at rehearsals and gained a reputation for a shocking temper (throwing things, shouting, etc) often directed at his players . He could be cantankerous but he also had boyish charm which endeared him to people. In later years, orchestras often admired him and loved the results they got from working with him but not the means to get there.


There we go again. This has nothing to do with personal matters, I leave that to the gossip media (oops, the Harnoncourt gossip comes from you). And of course, when HvK is mentioned in a non-idolized way, we always get the same reactions, but never mind.

With Karajan/BPO, the only concern would be a commercial one, a monopoly. Can you name any recordings in the HvK era by the BPO with other conductors. So, Harnoncourt it isn't, we understand that. And Wand it isn't, because whatever. But any others? And can you do the same for the Abbado or Rattle era? Plenty of names and plenty of recordings: Harnoncourt, Wand, Haitink, Barenboim, you name it. And all of them in the core repertoire, Bruckner, Mahler, Schubert, Brahms etc.

So, whoever Karajan loved or hated, go on and gossip around, if you want, I frankly don't care for one second. But the BPO as a musical instrument was claimed almost exclusively by HvK in his time as chief-for-life. If you listen to Harnoncourt's Brahms, Wand's Bruckner and Schubert, Haitink's Mahler, I think we as music lovers may be glad that the BPO became available in the recording studio for other conductors as well. But I think any orchestra will also be better served by a variety of conductors in its core repertoire.

And finally, it would also be nice if the idolization of any conductor (or composer for that matter), as very frequently experienced here on TC, would be limited. Any dissenting opinion on your precious babies, may only lead to a variety in listening experiences. We all can keep learning.


----------



## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> There we go again. This has nothing to do with personal matters, I leave that to the gossip media (oops, the Harnoncourt gossip comes from you). And of course, when HvK is mentioned in a non-idolized way, we always get the same reactions, but never mind.
> 
> With Karajan/BPO, the only concern would be a commercial one, a monopoly. Can you name any recordings in the HvK era by the BPO with other conductors. So, Harnoncourt it isn't, we understand that. And Wand it isn't, because whatever. But any others? And can you do the same for the Abbado or Rattle era? Plenty of names and plenty of recordings: Harnoncourt, Wand, Haitink, Barenboim, you name it. And all of them in the core repertoire, Bruckner, Mahler, Schubert, Brahms etc.
> 
> So, whoever Karajan loved or hated, go on and gossip around, if you want, I frankly don't care for one second. But the BPO as a musical instrument was claimed almost exclusively by HvK in his time as chief-for-life. If you listen to Harnoncourt's Brahms, Wand's Bruckner and Schubert, Haitink's Mahler, I think we as music lovers may be glad that the BPO became available in the recording studio for other conductors as well. But I think any orchestra will also be better served by a variety of conductors in its core repertoire.
> 
> And finally, it would also be nice if the idolization of any conductor (or composer for that matter), as very frequently experienced here on TC, would be limited. Any dissenting opinion on your precious babies, may only lead to a variety in listening experiences. We all can keep learning.


There are actually plenty of recordings by the BPO made by Kempe, van kempan, Jochum, Bohm, Friscay, Maazel, Leinsdorf, Kubelik, Szell, Barbirolli, and later Ozawa, Barenboim, to name a few, all during Karajan's term.I can't be bothered to look up anymore It simply isn't true what you say. The evidence just isn't there. Of course we know that Karajan exerted tremendous power but the implication you are making that he exclusively used the BPO just isn't true.


----------



## Sad Al

Is Herreweghe good? I have that one. There are some bad reviews but perhaps they are clueless morons, he's usually very good.


----------



## Manxfeeder

Sad Al said:


> Is Herreweghe good? I have that one. There are some bad reviews but perhaps they are clueless morons, he's usually very good.


It's not bad; it's just different. Someone asked my impression of it in another thread, and my feeling there and here is, Herreweghe is bringing out the Schubert in Bruckner over the Wagner.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

DavidA said:


> Are you really listening to the same Sibelius, Mahler, Brahms, that I have in my library played by Karajan? You might not care for them but to say he turns them into 'light buttery treats'? Just thinking of the towering Tapiola in my library or the Mahler 9. Or in fact any of his recordings by those composers. Are you listening to the same recordings as I am? Or do you HvK record some things with the Boston Pops Orchestra? And to say Karajan wasn't a skilled conductor? Well, there were some pretty skilled musicians who played under him who would have disagreed with you. No problem with you not liking his conducting but the reasons you give appear to be incredible to me and unrecognisable with the recordings I have.


I'll relisten to the Mahler and Brahms, where if I recall it's really more the metronomic stiffness that gets me. But I've tried his Sibelius (Symphonies 4-7, Tapiola) several times and I'm simply allergic to them (besides a pretty good 4th). Sibelius is a top 3 composer for me, and _to my ears_ Karajan treats him like a French impressionist. He sure conjures up some magical soundscapes. But there is so much more to Sibelius than that. Ears are funny things; we all look for different things in recordings. BTW there are other Karajan recordings that I like - his Debussy, Ravel, Shostakovich 10, several opera collaborations - and I'm definitely partial to his '63 Beethoven cycle. And I repeat my opinion that he is, among conductors that I have heard, the premier interpreter of Strauss and Bruckner in the stereo age.


----------



## Merl

Aye the BPO have had very few guest conductors or conductors who have recorded with them since Karajan. Well that is apart from Ozawa, Paavo JÃ¤rvi, Blomstedt, Bernstein, Kubelik, Levine, Skrowaczewski, Haitink, Jansons, Thielemann, Barenboim, Mehta, Skrowaczewski, Wand, Abbado (when Karajan was in charge), Pappano, Cluytens, Jochum, Harnoncourt, Jansons, Boulez, Rostropovich, Bychkov, Bohm, Fricsay, Lehmann, Dudamel, Maazel, Henze, Markevitch, Giulini, Colin Davis, Kertesz, Tilson Thomas, Honeck, Szell, Tennstedt, Solti, Keilberth, Pappano, Dostal, Steinberg, Klemperer, Muti, Barbirolli, Ashkenazy, Kempe, Susskind, Slatkin, Commission, Abravanel, Kempe, Zinman, Schwarz, Marriner, De Waart, Chung, Mata.... Did I miss anyone out? A total closed shopí ½í¸‰. Disgraceful!

As far Karajan favouritism is concerned I'm definitely no HvK fanboy. He made some great recordings but he recorded some ***** too (like all conductors). Just cos I read his book, I'm hardly his number one fan. Ivve read a few books about Furtwangler but I'm far from his number one fan. Whilst I do understand what you're getting at and do dislike such favouritism, I'm really not someone who has rose-tinted spectacles for any conductors but the Karajan 'slickness' comments do **** me off in the same way as any stereotypes aimed at certain conductors. However, the fact rains that Wand was never banned from Berlin by HvK, just not a big enough name in the 70s and 80s to put bums on seats or shift units of albums. I certainly have nothing against Wand as a conductor but he messed his career up (as he alludes to in his memoirs 'So and not different') by making bad decisions when younger. Incidentally there's a good interview with him, where the interviewer gets told off by Wand, linked below. He really was a grumpy old sod. Hahaha.

http://www.bruceduffie.com/wand.html


----------



## Merl

Oops! Double post


----------



## Knorf

I didn't notice anyone idolizing Karajan in this thread. That's a straw man. In fact, everyone who praised recordings by Karajan also mentioned, as if under obligation, that some of what he did was rubbish, or at least problematic. 

For me, I love Karajan's Bruckner 7. It's about the best that music has ever been done. But Karajan's Mozart? No thanks. Too heavy, too smooth. Not my taste for Mozart at all. It's odd because Karajan's Haydn, especially live, could be very good. But so it is.

Mainly, I defended Karajan from the claim that everything he did is smooth, creamy, and lacking in edge. That claim is just flatly untrue. But how is doing so "idolizing" Karajan?

Oh, right. It's not.

Maybe we could move the referendum on Karajan to a another thread and get back to Bruckner 7 and sharing our favorite recordings of it?


----------



## Sad Al

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Sibelus is a top 3 composer for me, and _to my ears_ Karajan treats him like a French impressionist. He sure conjures up some magical soundscapes. But there is so much more to Sibelius than that


I'm a Finn, what is Sibbe at his absolute recorded best, in your opinion? Don't be a riddler.


----------



## Becca

Knorf said:


> I didn't notice anyone idolizing Karajan in this thread. That's a straw man. In fact, everyone who praised recordings by Karajan also mentioned, as if under obligation, that some of what he did was rubbish, or at least problematic.
> 
> For me, I love Karajan's Bruckner 7. It's about the best that music has ever been done. But Karajan's Mozart? No thanks. Too heavy, too smooth. Not my taste for Mozart at all. It's odd because Karajan's Haydn, especially live, could be very good. But so it is.
> 
> Mainly, I defended Karajan from the claim that everything he did is smooth, creamy, and lacking in edge. That claim is just flatly untrue. But how is doing so "idolizing" Karajan?
> 
> Oh, right. It's not.
> 
> Maybe we could move the referndum on Karajan to a another thread and get back to Bruckner 7 and sharing our favorite recordings of it?


You are relatively new to the forum and there are some member foibles (and more) that you will discover over time


----------



## wkasimer

NLAdriaan said:


> And finally, it would also be nice if the idolization of any conductor (or composer for that matter), as very frequently experienced here on TC, would be limited.


It would be equally nice if the demonization would be limited as well.


----------



## DavidA

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'll relisten to the Mahler and Brahms, where if I recall it's really more the metronomic stiffness that gets me. But I've tried his Sibelius (Symphonies 4-7, Tapiola) several times and I'm simply allergic to them (besides a pretty good 4th). Sibelius is a top 3 composer for me, and _to my ears_ Karajan treats him like a French impressionist. He sure conjures up some magical soundscapes. But there is so much more to Sibelius than that. Ears are funny things; we all look for different things in recordings. BTW there are other Karajan recordings that I like - his Debussy, Ravel, Shostakovich 10, several opera collaborations - and I'm definitely partial to his '63 Beethoven cycle. And I repeat my opinion that he is, among conductors that I have heard, the premier interpreter of Strauss and Bruckner in the stereo age.


Interesting that Sibelius himself was a fan of Karajan's conducting of his works. He certainly preferred Karajan to Beecham from what he reportedly said to Legge.

I agree though that one man's meat is another man's poison. Why you can read two critics and wonder if they are listening to the same performance! Or when the same critic (as in the case of Joyce Hatto) rubbished one recording and then praised the same recording (different name) to the skies! :lol:


----------



## wkasimer

Knorf said:


> Karajan's Haydn, especially live, could be very good.


I agree about his Mozart. But I was surprised by his Haydn Paris Symphonies - the menuets tend to galumph, but the outer movements are excellent.


----------



## HenryPenfold

wkasimer said:


> I agree about his Mozart. But I was surprised by his Haydn Paris Symphonies - the menuets tend to galumph, but the outer movements are excellent.


Indeed.

I've been HIPPing it on Haydn for the last couple of decades and returning to Karajan was a surprise - excellent performances, IMHO.


----------



## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> I agree about his Mozart. But I was surprised by his Haydn Paris Symphonies - the menuets tend to galumph, but the outer movements are excellent.


Interesting I have a live Don Giovanni from HVK an£ you wouldn't believe it's the same conductor! The EMI Mozart symphonies are also quite different from the DG recordings.


----------



## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> It would be equally nice if the demonization would be limited as well.


As well as the saying of things which are historically inaccurate. But this seems to be par for the course as far as Karajan is concerned. I can remember an obituary in the spectator when he died which was a complete rewrite of history. Some of the 'facts' quoted were just totally incorrect. If we are going to demonise someone let it be done on the basis of historical facts not on the basis of legend


----------



## NLAdriaan

Sorry, I was wrong in the number of non HvK recordings by the BPO during the HvK era.


----------



## DavidA

NLAdriaan said:


> Sorry, I was wrong in the number of non HvK recordings by the BPO during the HvK era.


Actually it was reckoned that HvK was a lot less paranoid about other conductors conducting the BPO than Furtwangler.


----------



## Marc

SONNET CLV said:


> It's no secret that the Seventh ranks as my favorite Bruckner Symphony (which is also why I love the Rautavaara Third Symphony so much! -- the music that is playing in the background as I type) and I have quite a few versions on my LP and CD shelves -- it's one of the symphonies I most collect.
> 
> My top choice remains the very first version I ever heard, quite a few years back:
> 
> View attachment 133393
> 
> 
> View attachment 133394
> 
> 
> This Max Rudolf/Cincinnati Symphony disc on DECCA started my love affair with Bruckner's music and the performance remains unforgettable. It's the one I compare all the others to, and I candidly admit that maybe part of my affection _is_ because this was the first Bruckner music I ever heard. But I still visit this disc on occasion and am always blown away by the interpretation.
> 
> I have the LP vinyl disc shown above, but I have since acquired a CD version (recorded from a good tape transfer by Haydn House).
> 
> View attachment 133395
> 
> 
> View attachment 133396
> 
> 
> I still favor the viny copy for sound. Even though I've played this hundreds of times, I can still admire the performance through whatever groove grunge currently afflicts my oft-listened-to vinyl disc. A treasure.
> 
> And for those Bruckner Seventh fans who have not yet heard Einojuhani Rautavaara's Third Symphony, you have a real treat awaiting you. Bruckner in Finland! Give it a listen.


For those who are interested:

https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/october11/


----------



## Knorf

Marc said:


> For those who are interested:
> 
> https://www.abruckner.com/downloads/downloadofthemonth/october11/


Awesome! I wish it were something lossless and not mp3s, but beggars can't be choosers.

Now downloaded, with my thanks, both to that website, and to you for mentioning it!


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

My issue with Karajan is too often it is beauty for beauty’s sake, missing much of the depth of feeling and angst inherent particularly in Mahler, but also Beethoven and Brahms. The sensuousness he brings to the music for me actually works well in Debussy and Ravel. Also Richard Strauss and Bruckner, as stated earlier.

I often say that Karajan was to beauty of sound what Toscanini was to rhythmic precision. I listen to these conductors for these qualities, but there is much more to great music making.


----------



## NLAdriaan

Becca said:


> You are relatively new to the forum and there are some member foibles (and more) that you will discover over time


And over time you might also experience that some members find it hard to resist judging others as a person, sometimes indirect


----------



## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My issue with Karajan is too *often it is beauty for beauty's sake,* missing much of the depth of feeling and angst inherent particularly in Mahler, but also Beethoven and Brahms. The sensuousness he brings to the music for me actually works well in Debussy and Ravel. Also Richard Strauss and Bruckner, as stated earlier.
> 
> I often say that Karajan was to beauty of sound what Toscanini was to rhythmic precision. I listen to these conductors for these qualities, but there is much more to great music making.


Or as James Galway said, "He got the orchestra to play all the notes superbly, in tune and in time."


----------



## Andy Foster

Haitink and the Concertgebouw, the 1978 recording, is the best for me. It's unshowy and needs to heard a few times.

Interesting the point about Karajan and beauty for beauty's sake. If this thread had been about Bruckner 8, I would have chosen Karajan's very late recording with the VPO, which is certainly very beautiful, and finally got me to love the Eighth after years of it being a bit of a blind spot.


----------



## Azol

Abbado/Lucerne B7 performance comes closest to an ideal Allegro moderato. Famous timpani crescendo ("the pedal point") starting just before the coda is worth the price of admission alone!

I am sure someone has already posted it somewhere, but here it is again in case you missed it:

*Breathtaking Pedal Point in Bruckner's 7th Symphony*





Abbado just nails it!

P.S. The audio example in the video comes from Chailly recording, I leave to you discover Abbado live performance.


----------



## vincula

I've got a few versions, including a Furtwängler's EMI Japan with as good sound as one might ever get. There days I find myself listening to Van Beinum/Concertgebouw (Decca Eloquence series), Herbert Kegel/Leipzig RSO and Carl Schuricht/Vienna Phil.

It's extremely challenging to keep those brass sections in tune. However, many get this wrong and miss power and momentum in their quest for a perfect pitch. 

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Enthusiast

Merl said:


> The only conductor Karajan refused point blank as a guest ("over my dead body") was Harnoncourt due to Harnoncourt's "disrespect". Remember it was Karajan who hired an unknown Harnoncourt to the VPO without a rehearsal ("I like the way he sits") and then years later, when beginning his own conducting career Harnoncourt was asked about Karajan's conducting and working under him to which Harnoncourt glibly replied "He's a good Porsce driver". Harnoncourt never apologised for the comment, which he claims he made in jest and never really meant, and Karajan never forgave him for it, deeming it as massively disrespectful and a personal slap in the face (Karajan rarely had a bad word for his fellow conductors) .


An interesting story. I have watched a BBC documentary (the Beeb was showing it, anyway) about Karajan. Harnoncourt was one of the talking heads with anecdotes and memories of the man. I don't remember much of what he said but he did come over as remembering Karajan with both affection and respect as well as being somewhat bemused (but, again, in an affectionate way) at some of Karajan's ego-led behaviour. One of these stories concerned Karajan being a much more demonstrative conductor when a camera was on him. Overall, it seemed that Karajan was something big to him - he completely avoided judging him - even if some of his behaviour made him smile. That's how it came over to me.


----------



## Knorf

And it was basically fact that Karajan _was_ a good Porsche driver. You know, for an enthusiast, not a pro.

But of course he was so much more than that, concerning which it seems clear Harnoncourt was well aware.


----------



## vincula

I own this little box too. Rosbaud has a different approach to Bruckner. Much to enjoy in a different way.









Regards,

Vincula


----------



## DarkAngel

The amazing 89 Karajan VPO is given serious challenge now with the much improved sound of *24/96 Tidal Masters *for BPO symphonies 4-9, another dimension of musical detail is revealed really.....

















If your ever see used Eichhorn B7 at good price grab it, a performance of real depth and stature that compares with the very best, uses Bruckner's home town orchestra.....

















From Japan websites you can get the partially complete Eichhorn boxset


----------



## flamencosketches

I've been enjoying the famous Karajan/Vienna recording lately. Not my favorite Bruckner symphony as I find it too heavy for my tastes oftentimes, but it is definitely a breathtakingly beautiful work.


----------



## Gray Bean

My goodness I love that Karajan VPO recording! The Berlin cycle sounds better than ever in the new Blu-ray remastering. And I'm delighted that someone mentioned Kurt Eichhorn...a real Brucknerian! The first 7 I ever heard was Solti and Chicago. I still like it. I guess I imprinted! I would also recommend the Blomstedt/Gewandhaus 7 on an SACD. Beautifully played and recorded. In fact, that entire cycle is worth hearing.


----------



## Heck148

Gray Bean said:


> The first 7 I ever heard was Solti and Chicago. I still like it. I guess I imprinted!


My first was Walter/ColSO, way back when I was in high school!!...I too still like it....tho now the Solti/CSO version probably takes top prize...von Matacic/CzPO is also very fine, so is Tennstedt/CSO...


----------



## flamencosketches

Gray Bean said:


> My goodness I love that Karajan VPO recording! The Berlin cycle sounds better than ever in the new Blu-ray remastering. And I'm delighted that someone mentioned Kurt Eichhorn...a real Brucknerian! The first 7 I ever heard was Solti and Chicago. I still like it. I guess I imprinted! I would also recommend the Blomstedt/Gewandhaus 7 on an SACD. Beautifully played and recorded. In fact, that entire cycle is worth hearing.


I can't help but to picture Karajan welling up with tears while conducting the second movement (with eyes closed, of course), in awe of the music, letting the sound wash over the room, trying to make sense of his impending death. Of course, I'm sure this is a horribly romanticized visualization of the recording sessions, but nevertheless.


----------



## Enthusiast

I probably have read this thread at one pint and may even have contributed to it. I can only assume that Furtwangler has been mentioned as one of the several must-hear recommendations. He and Celibidache were probably the most influential on me in my earlier battle to enjoy Bruckner. It took me a good while to get over the Karajan approach (I'm not anti-Herbie and like him in lots of music) which always seemed monolithic and badgering to me .... strange given his reputation for finding beauty. Obviously I know I'm "wrong" in this - when so many serious listeners think differently it would be a bit arrogant to say otherwise - but I'm not sure I want to put the time in on coming around.


----------



## Heck148

Enthusiast said:


> ....It took me a good while to get over the Karajan approach ..........Obviously I know I'm "wrong" in this - when so many serious listeners think differently .....


No. It's not wrong at all....each individual is entitled to his/her own preferences and choices.....what works for you is "right"....it matters not what others think....


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Who is the brilliant marketer who designed that Eichhorn boxset cover??


----------



## flamencosketches

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Who is the brilliant marketer who designed that Eichhorn boxset cover??


Not sure, but I had no idea the former Pope Benedict was also a conductor.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

When I was a kid I told my parents I wanted to be a conductor. They put me on the roof in a thunderstorm.


----------



## wkasimer

Enthusiast said:


> I can only assume that Furtwangler has been mentioned as one of the several must-hear recommendations.


Hard to imagine...:devil:


----------



## Eclectic Al

trem0lo said:


> I own the Solti and Jochum sets-Solti's interpretations are very good but not as well-regarded as Jochum's, whom I like slightly better as a sensitive conductor. I prefer the Solti set, though, for the modern sound and Chicago Symphony brass... the Dresden orchestra's brass section sounds like they're about to have an aneurism at times and hence go out of tune and /or get very shrill.
> 
> I picked up the Haitink 7 recently. Only listened to the Adagio but I loved it. I sang under Haitink for a Beethoven 9 years ago and the slow movement brought me to tears and was the highlight... the man can handle an adagio (which is what you want the 7 for anyway).


I like the Karajan version overall, but do think that Solti is good here, and it's a bit disappointing that he has so few advocates.


----------



## Heck148

Eclectic Al said:


> I like the Karajan version overall, but do think that Solti is good here, and it's a bit disappointing that he has so few advocates.


 for me, Solti and Bernstein are the giants of their generation. 
Solti does the best Bruckner 7 Adagio I've ever heard...superb flow, and tension - release leading to the grand climax...Tennstedt evokes an amazing climax from the CSO - the trumpets seem to have unlimited crescendo power - but overall, Solti handles the total movement the best..he always excelled at those long crescendi to ultimate climax - Wagner Ring, Shost #8, Bruckner syms, etc...


----------



## Merl

Heck148 said:


> My first was Walter/ColSO, way back when I was in high school!!...I too still like it....tho now the Solti/CSO version probably takes top prize...von Matacic/CzPO is also very fine, so is Tennstedt/CSO...


Come on Heck, you can't fool us. Recorded music hadn't even been invented when you were in high school! :lol:


----------



## Heck148

Merl said:


> Come on Heck, you can't fool us. Recorded music hadn't even been invented when you were in high school! :lol:


LOL!! it was a big sewing needle carving grooves in a big wax cylinder, lol!!


----------



## vincula

There's much to admire and discover in this double cd package from Eloquence/Decca. They pop up once in a while at reasonable prices on Evil-bay & Co.









Regards,

Vincula


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Vaneyes said:


>


Have to agree that HvK's Bruckner 7 is apocalyptic, the built-up to the climate in the second movement is earth-shattering. The sonority alone is worth listening.

For Bruckner 7/8/9 my favorite is Guilini with VPO. Guilini has this incredible ability to sustain a broader tempo than most and maintaining the shape throughout. These recordings come off as highly solemn and spiritual which is apt for Bruckner to my ear.


----------



## Heck148

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> Have to agree that HvK's Bruckner 7 is apocalyptic, the built-up to the climate in the second movement is earth-shattering.....


You want earth-shattering in B 7/II ?? - try Solti or Tennstedt with Chicago!! unbelievable....vK sounds a bit tame in comparison.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

Karajan’s VPO Bruckner 7 has a noble, dignified air that makes each movement sing in an unbroken arc from beginning to end. It conjures up the magisterial peaks of the Alps like his recording of Strauss’s Alpensinfonie. One of a handful of very special HvK recordings, along with his Prokofiev 5, Mahler 9 and ‘70’s Strauss tone poems, that showcase his gifts at their greatest IMO.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Karajan's VPO Bruckner 7 has a noble, dignified air that makes each movement sing in an unbroken arc from beginning to end. It conjures up the magisterial peaks of the Alps like his recording of Strauss's Alpensinfonie. One of a handful of very special HvK recordings, along with his Prokofiev 5, Mahler 9 and '70's Strauss tone poems, that showcase his gifts at their greatest IMO.


Wholeheartedly agree with this take. HvK made several recordings of Bruckner 7 since the early days of PO, so this work must have a special place in his heart (the DG VPO is pretty telling)



Heck148 said:


> You want earth-shattering in B 7/II ?? - try Solti or Tennstedt with Chicago!! unbelievable....vK sounds a bit tame in comparison.


Per your recommendation, I dusted off my Solti with a score in hand and boy I was disappointed. The CSO strings are fine and dynamics are finely observed by Solti but the brass and the winds were drowned up to the first double forte. The CSO's lean sound simply cannot compare with VPO's voluptuous sound in the 80s: the strings sounds so lush and velvety the brass shines through the speaker.

More on conducting, I hate to break to you, but Solti here is quite stiff and wooden. There is very little expression and it felt like he is just going through the motion. There is no long line/arc or sense of direction like in the HvK VPO recording. Example: just focus on the searching sextuplets around bar 160 all the way up to the climatic triple forte, there is hardly any urgency in Solti whereas in HvK the tension is almost unbearable. The reason is that Solti conducted as if those sextuplets have tenuto on them instead of the slur.

Earth-shattering doesn't just mean big sonority, but the internal effect on the listener. Bruckner is all about 95% of gradually building up energy and release it in the final 5%. There would be nothing to blast off if all the pieces are not carefully balanced or when the sense of inevitability is not established.


----------



## Heck148

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> Per your recommendation, I dusted off my Solti with a score in hand and boy I was disappointed. The CSO strings are fine and dynamics are finely observed by Solti but the brass and the winds were drowned up to the first double forte.


Sorry, this is just wrong. The VPO strings are full, but the brass is recessed, and lacking at the climax, too suppressed. The CSO brass blazes forth splendidly, and they just keep pouring it on - you may not like it, but the power of the sound is undeniable....In Tennstedt's recording it is unbelievable - the crescendo into the climax is amazing, nothing like it. Overall, Solti does a better job building to the great climax, but Tennstedt really delivers a huge climax when it arrives. von Karajan sounds limited, suppressed in comparison
The VPO,, a great orchestra, for sure, is simply no match for the CSO in full sonority of the brass and winds....I've heard them all live, no contest, [different concepts, of course...]
Solti was great at finding the drama in the music he excelled at the long buildups, the great crescendi, rivalled by very few. His orchestra played with incredible virtuosity, and a stunning dynamic range.

I don't want to get into another vonKarajan/furtwangler thread here, there have been SO many already on this forum. for me, vK's Bruckner 7 Adagio will remain a bit too tame and suppressed, a trait I find rather common with his work....
But hey, to each his own - enjoy your HvK......


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Heck148 said:


> Sorry, this is just wrong. The VPO strings are full, but the brass is recessed, and lacking at the climax, too suppressed. The CSO brass blazes forth splendidly, and they just keep pouring it on - you may not like it, but the power of the sound is undeniable....In Tennstedt's recording it is unbelievable - the crescendo into the climax is amazing, nothing like it. Overall, Solti does a better job building to the great climax, but Tennstedt really delivers a huge climax when it arrives. von Karajan sounds limited, suppressed in comparison
> The VPO,, a great orchestra, for sure, is simply no match for the CSO in full sonority of the brass and winds....I've heard them all live, no contest, [different concepts, of course...]
> Solti was great at finding the drama in the music he excelled at the long buildups, the great crescendi, rivalled by very few. His orchestra played with incredible virtuosity, and a stunning dynamic range.
> 
> I don't want to get into another vonKarajan/furtwangler thread here, there have been SO many already on this forum. for me, vK's Bruckner 7 Adagio will remain a bit too tame and suppressed, a trait I find rather common with his work....
> But hey, to each his own - enjoy your HvK......


Nobody is getting into Karajan/Furtwangler fanboyism if you don't make such suggestion in the first place. I am not even a fan of HvK, but you have to give credit where credit is due. Listening is not about "big personalities" but "big personalities" sometimes do great things (Solti is one of them).

What you said is true, CSO's sound is great too (CSO is my home orchestra I am well aware of its sound and legacy) and the brass of CSO is bright and well projected during the 80s. I am not denying that. If you read carefully, I said that *the brass is not well balanced or get drowned by the strings* (might be sound engineering or interpretation) up to the first double forte of the repeated G sharp chord in the Adagio. After that it's generally pretty great.

I can also assure you I am not listening to MP3 on the phone, my sound system is up to snuff. VPO can make bad recordings and so-so recordings but this is not of them (especially when it comes to Bruckner), and I don't think I am in the minority, even for people who think HvK is overrated. I admit *VPO's brass is not as bright/focused/aggresive as the CSO*, but this more of a stylistic choice. But *VPO's brass has more warmth and blends into the tutti much better*, the idea of sonority should be one gigantic sound, which means the overtone series of each instrument must combine in the right ratio as not to stand out, like an organ in a cathedral (which is a different from having a translucent texture).

And yes, Solti is a great conductor and he does amazing things, sure, I am not denying that, heck, I sometimes enjoy Solti's Strauss more than HvK, can you imagine? But not here, not to my ear, for the very precise reason I pointed out. You need to look at the score and actually listen to what he did, what he did there is idiosyncratic and just do not sound great, I think it's not subtle, it's obvious and intentional.

Jochum didn't do that, Wand didn't do that, Bohm didn't do that, Knappertsbusch didn't do that and I can go on forever. Unless Solti is using a different score, it's written clearly on the Robert Haas edition (and Nowak too), those *sextuplets have slurs on top! And Solti made them sound like accented notes*, like a portato or even a tenuto, just sing it out loud, you will find that there is little to no breathing between the sextuptlets (Yes short of breath also create tension). This creates a well articulated effect from the first violin but the effect sounds stiff rather than expressive because expressiveness requires legato playing.

I do exaggerate a bit, but *I bet you cannot tell the actual tenuto of the repeated D# from the other semiquavers because they all sounds accentuated*.

Let me give you another reason why Solti's buildup in the Adagio is underwhelming: he's tempo is too slow (22bpm vs Celi's 30bpm). With tempo this stretched out, he is still hellbent on getting those semiquavers very even (both rhythmically and dynamically) and pronounced, without a sense of breathing or flow, makes the build up section flat. As a result, *both the bass line and the voice in the brass (motive) becomes harder to mentally group together horizontally*, and hence the sense of harmonic progression is diminished. The sonority in the climax is very well done, I get that and I have no problem with it, but this is only superficial (it's the 95% build up that matters for Bruckner).

I am not bashing you or Solti. Of course Maestro must have his reason, which is what interpretation is about. I was excited about your recommendation and took it seriously in the hope of rediscovering a great disc. But it's below expectation for me (you can even compare it to Barenboim's CSO cycle which sounds more fluid). As a Solti fan yourself you must know Solti is more of a technician, a virtuoso, an extrovert who likes micromanaging the details. *That's why his wooden expression and tempo rigidity as I mentioned is hardly surprising.*

I am always willing to hear your defense on that specific criticism, to hear why do you think it's better than HvK's 80s VPO recording or many other great recordings (Even analytical conductor like Haitink with RCO manages much greater expression and intensity than Solti). But don't give me that Karajan/Furtwangler thing as if that's relevant somehow.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

The sound Solti drew from the CSO was always very impressive, but I don’t want to be impressed in Bruckner, I want to hear a moving interpretation. I too am not a huge Karajan fan but his Bruckner always sounded so right to me - elegance and poise with emphasis placed on the proper climaxes instead of making each one a contest to see which brass player can blow their lungs out the fastest (I have the same problem with Jochum/Dresden). That is a gross simplification of the Brucknerian aesthetic that focuses on cheap thrills rather than intelligent understanding of the music’s structure. I find the Vienna sound perfectly suited to Bruckner with an ideal blend of instrumental timbres - refulgent brass, creamy woodwinds, and of course, those uniquely radiant strings that, for lack of a better word, sound like sunshine to me.

But hey, as always, to each their own! We’re just fortunate that so many great maestros have given us their unique takes on the repertoire so we can passionately debate them. As we all know, life would be boring if there was one correct way to do things or if we all preferred one type of performance.


----------



## Heck148

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> Nobody is getting into Karajan/Furtwangler fanboyism


SORRY, NOT INTERESTED....
you're free to like whatever you want...we all are. The Adagio of Bruckner #7 is one one of the greatest slow movements in music. I like it with a huge, orgasmic climax, lots of sound and excitement.
HvK's rendition is ok, it's certainly not "bad"....but for me, others, including Solti, Tennstedt, von Matacic, do it better...they get a better sound, provide a more thrilling climax.
so, enjoy your HvK, I'll enjoy my favorites.


----------



## DarkAngel

Comments sought for these three Celi B7s, the early DG set is so much faster tempo than middle ZEN inspired boxset it is hard to believe it is same conductor.....

Mainly want to know where the latest Sony performance fits in comparison to other two performances, very expensive so does it provide any new insight by Celi?


----------



## DarkAngel

New entry to B7 catalog, Alan Gilbert unknown to me previously but this 2019 performance is very good with clean spacious modern sound, not going to displace any of my top 5 versions but well above average and collectors will not be disappointed

Nelsons also a newer entry with very solid performance in clear modern sound, he has a couple previous Bruckner recordings also that I really like so he is pretty much automatic buy for me, subjectively I think he has a better grasp of the reverent spiritual aspects of Bruckners work, the Lepzig orchestra brass have a glorious tone and boldly carve out the towering spires of sound


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The sound Solti drew from the CSO was always very impressive, but I don't want to be impressed in Bruckner, I want to hear a moving interpretation. I too am not a huge Karajan fan but his Bruckner always sounded so right to me - elegance and poise with emphasis placed on the proper climaxes instead of making each one a contest to see which brass player can blow their lungs out the fastest (I have the same problem with Jochum/Dresden). That is a gross simplification of the Brucknerian aesthetic that focuses on cheap thrills rather than intelligent understanding of the music's structure. I find the Vienna sound perfectly suited to Bruckner with an ideal blend of instrumental timbres - refulgent brass, creamy woodwinds, and of course, those uniquely radiant strings that, for lack of a better word, sound like sunshine to me.
> 
> But hey, as always, to each their own! We're just fortunate that so many great maestros have given us their unique takes on the repertoire so we can passionately debate them. As we all know, life would be boring if there was one correct way to do things or if we all preferred one type of performance.


Great assessment. Bruckner's music is both spiritual and romantic at the same time, both laconic and complex at the same time, conductors should interpret the hell out of it but they can't go all out as in Mahler. Like it or not, his music is meant to be transcendental, that is apparent. That's why I am always very fond of Giulini's spacious, structured, unaffected, deeply moving performances of 7/8/9.



Heck148 said:


> SORRY, NOT INTERESTED....
> you're free to like whatever you want...we all are. The Adagio of Bruckner #7 is one one of the greatest slow movements in music. I like it with a huge, orgasmic climax, lots of sound and excitement.
> HvK's rendition is ok, it's certainly not "bad"....but for me, others, including Solti, Tennstedt, von Matacic, do it better...they get a better sound, provide a more thrilling climax.
> so, enjoy your HvK, I'll enjoy my favorites.


Certainly. And I agree with you on Matačić, CP has wonderful sound (winds are incredible). I find Matačić's conducting fluid, idiomatic, and engaging.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

DarkAngel said:


> New entry to B7 catalog, Alan Gilbert unknown to me previously but this 2019 performance is very good with clean spacious modern sound, not going to displace any of my top 5 versions but well above average and collectors will not be disappointed
> 
> Nelsons also a newer entry with very solid performance in clear modern sound, he has a couple previous Bruckner recordings also that I really like so he is pretty much automatic buy for me, subjectively I think he has a better grasp of the reverent spiritual aspects of Bruckners work, the Lepzig orchestra brass have a glorious tone and boldly carve out the towering spires of sound


Alan Gilbert is quite underrated as a conductor (maybe a marketing problem). His Mahler 9 with Royal Stockholm is incredibly virtuositic (technically the best Rondo-Burleske I have heard) and also very musical. His Bruckner 7 is low key and has a transparent texture that is delightful (tons of color).

Nelson's Bruckner 7 with the Gewandhaus sounds flat to me however, especially when compared with his exciting Shostakovitch releases with the BSO. But I concur, he clearly went for the spiritual and transformative interpretation (it didn't work for me, maybe he is too young and too full of egoistic drive to be able to pull off that).


----------



## Knorf

There is a narrative running around that if "you really love" Bruckner, you'll gravitate towards one or other of Celibidache's accounts of the 7th. 

Rubbish.

I've been listening, loving, and studying the scores to Bruckner Symphonies for over 30 years. I find them endlessly fascinating. Celibidache's Bruckner for me is nearly unlistenable. It is indulgent, sentimental tosh, morose navel-gazing posing as profundity, empty and pretentious, the Bruckner equivalent of Thomas Kinkade paintings. In short, hopeless. 

But some people, even a few I respect, really like Celibidache's Bruckner. That's fine, of course. What I object to is the insinuation that "true Brucknerians" inevitably love Celibidache's recordings, and that if you don't the implication is that you must not be a true Brucknerian. 

Solti's Bruckner is better. Not a lot, but better. Solti's Bruckner is all about brass-über-alles, blasting every rise in the texture as it were the last climax in the universe, and chewing the scenery into shreds. For me, if Celibidache is the Thomas Kinkade of Bruckner, Solti is the Michael Bay. Big explosions! Fast shiny things! 

There are entirely valid approaches to hearing Bruckner different from either. I don't claim my way of hearing is the best way, certainly not the only way, but neither is Celibidache's or Furtwänger or anyone's


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Knorf said:


> There is a narrative running around that if "you really love" Bruckner, you'll gravitate towards one or other of Celibidache's accounts of the 7th.
> 
> Rubbish.
> 
> I've been listening, loving, and studying the scores to Bruckner Symphonies for over 30 years. I find them endlessly fascinating. Celibidache's Bruckner for me is nearly unlistenable. It is indulgent, sentimental tosh, morose navel-gazing posing as profundity, empty and pretentious, the Bruckner equivalent of Thomas Kinkade paintings. In short, hopeless.
> 
> But some people, even a few I respect, really like Celibidache's Bruckner. That's fine, of course. What I object to is the insinuation that "true Brucknerians" inevitably love Celibidache's recordings, and that if you don't the implication is that you must not be a true Brucknerian.
> 
> Solti's Bruckner is better. Not a lot, but better. Solti's Bruckner is all about brass-über-alles, blasting every rise in the texture as it were the last climax in the universe, and chewing the scenery into shreds.
> 
> There are entirely valid approaches to hearing Bruckner different from either. I don't claim my way of hearing is the best way, certainly not the only way, but neither is Celibidache's or Furtwänger or anyone's


While I don't buy into the Celi personality cult, and I agree with you on Celi's 7th, you cannot deny that Celi did some great stuff. Sure, he has a perverse sense of interpretation, similar to Currentzis, Gould, Pletnev, or Pogorelich (a bit of unfair comparison), but this perverseness challenges and enriches the often staid listening experience of the familiar. I contend that this works in a way similar to Brecht's idea of Verfremdungseffekt in the theory of theatre - defarmiliarization leads to greater aesthetic understanding.

Even throwing out all the "philosophical fluff", Celi's Bruckner 4th and 5th with the MPO are still great recordings. The fact that Celi has a personality cult suggests that they are at least very palatable. I even heard of a renowned musicologist, an associated professor of a reputable conservatory in Asia, being a "rabid fanboy" of Celi.

Celi's Bruckner is self-indulgent and pretentious, sure, but sentimental? Celi always has a plan and always stick to it, it shows in the live performances. I wouldn't call that sentimental. Mannerism is more apt for me. He was just as much as a taskmaster as Toscanini was, or as Szell/Solti was. For the tempi he took, he had incredible control over the orchestra to sustain tension, you hear that immediately in those MPO recordings. The voices are also well balanced (or properly voiced), even an amateur listener can hear every line clearly, and he unpacks the complexity by slowing down and by magnifying all the tiny details. No wonder he has so much fans from the uninitiated and veterans alike.

And Celi had deep thoughts and understandings so of course he went for profundity, for the impossible. There are people who think in simple terms and there are people who think deep. He was that deep kind of person. His talk of phenomenology and zen should not be something to mock, without clear justification. This anti-intellectualism attitude prevents people from learning things they don't understand.

His work are not Kitsch, quite opposite of it. The cult happened posthumously. If any one is guilt of Kitsch, it's Karajan. Is he faking profundity? Why would it matter if he is deep down faking it anyway? Who knows and who cares? That's just ad hominem attack without anything related to music.

I do agree with you that personality cult is toxic, but my friend, I am afraid you are throwing the baby out of the bathwater here.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I'll jump into the debate. I compared Solti's Adagio to my favorite, the May 1, 1951 Furtwangler recording.

Just the first three minutes of each are already illustrative of the difference. Furtwangler doesn't just play the music. He speaks it. There is from the first chord onwards eloquence and a sense of purpose. Not melodrama, mind you, but nobility and grace. Most importantly there is a clear relationship between each phrase within the whole, so that by the time you get to the forte passage three minutes in there is a sense of dramatic arrival. (And for those who make the silly claim that slowness equals profundity, Furt's is actually faster than Solti's by more than three minutes)






By contrast, Solti doesn't seem to be saying anything. It's just another piece of music played accurately according to the notes on the page. It is clinical and boring. Limp. Stale. The phrasing is impersonal. By the time you get to that same forte passage at 3 minutes it just comes out of nowhere. There has been no buildup to it, and it means relatively nothing. The playing is nice, but there is no apparent message behind the music as you get with Furtwangler. The only thing you get out of this recording is clear, full sound. I'd rather hear music.






The only interesting aspect of Solti's rendition is the big climax - impressively done - but there is so much more to this movement than a few seconds of big sound. It reminds me of what they said about Toscanini's Pastoral, that he was just killing time until the Storm. But here again, with Furt this sounds like an arrival, something that organically fits into the whole.

There are some who say that Furtwangler over-Romanticized Beethoven and Brahms, but in Bruckner he was an undisputed master. The top competition comes from his BPO successor, Karajan. It's been a while, but I remember on comparison preferring HvK's 1971 EMI version and have been recommending it as the best modern sound version.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'll jump into the debate. I compared Solti's Adagio to my favorite, the May 1, 1951 Furtwangler recording.
> 
> Just the first three minutes of each are already illustrative of the difference. Furtwangler doesn't just play the music. He speaks it. There is from the first chord onwards eloquence and a sense of purpose. Not melodrama, mind you, but nobility and grace. Most importantly there is a clear relationship between each phrase within the whole, so that by the time you get to the forte passage three minutes in there is a sense of dramatic arrival. (And for those who make the silly claim that slowness equals profundity, Furt's is actually faster than Solti's by more than three minutes)...


Great take. This is one great Bruckner 7 recording by Furtwangler. The contrast is stark between the two. The atmophere is so different right from the first chord. Furtwangler here is romantic, lyrical, the legato playing is lovely. Full of musical drama and spontaneity, and even a sense of tragedy, a tour de force.


----------



## Merl

Stan the Man has knocked out a lot of excellent Bruckner over the years (I was lucky enough to see him do the 7th live with the Halle and that was class too) . These 3 Bruckner 7s are all really good. My slight preference is for the LPO live one (at the moment) but there's a Rizla paper between them all quality-wise, tbh. Top sound on all of these.


----------



## mmsbls

Let's keep the thread focused on Bruckner 7 and the interpretations rather than each other. I have removed several personal comments that disrupt the thread. Please use PMs rather than post such comments on the forum.


----------



## Heck148

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'll jump into the debate.


I find Solti's Bruckner 7 to be absolutely top level, one of the best, if not the very best.

the following quote is applicable - Solti "_doesn't just play the music. He speaks it. There is from the first chord onwards eloquence and a sense of purpose. Not melodrama, mind you, but nobility and grace. Most importantly there is a clear relationship between each phrase within the whole, so that by the time you get to the forte passage three minutes in there is a sense of dramatic arrival."_ As always with Solti, there is a clear, constant flow of the drama of the work.

In no way is it "_just another piece of music played accurately according to the notes on the page. It is clinical and boring. Limp. Stale. The phrasing is impersonal._" That might be true of some lesser conductors, but it is of no relevance to Solti whatsoever. The playing is wonderful, you get great execution, and a clear interpretation based on the flow and drama of the great work, which leads inevitably to a splendid, shattering climax...great recording....:tiphat:


----------



## So Provincial

Bruckner 7, Jochum DG, recorded 1967. I've loads of versions, but this is the one I keep returning to.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Merl said:


> Stan the Man has knocked out a lot of excellent Bruckner over the years (I was lucky enough to see him do the 7th live with the Halle and that was class too) .


Stan is so underrated.


----------



## Gray Bean

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> Stan is so underrated.


Yes. He is. I love his complete cycle! Right now I'm indulging in my Knappertsbusch Bruckner recordings. Some dodgy editions, so not for purists, but some of my favorite Bruckner by a real master. Not for the faint of heart or perfectionist, though.


----------



## HenryPenfold

I came late to Skrowaczewski and missed his London concerts a few years ago, despite being urged to go by fellow Bruckner enthusiasts, then he died. 

I have the Oehms, LPO & Halle discs, but that Denon set that Merl posts in #161 looks very interesting ......


----------



## Merl

HenryPenfold said:


> I came late to Skrowaczewski and missed his London concerts a few years ago, despite being urged to go by fellow Bruckner enthusiasts, then he died.
> 
> I have the Oehms, LPO & Halle discs, but that Denon set that Merl posts in #161 looks very interesting ......


The 8th from that set is a killer, HP. I have it on my phone at the moment with some other odds and ends of Stan's. Here's a link to a review.

https://ecliptic.ch/audiophile/anton-bruckner-symphonies.php?cmtx_perm=22


----------



## Knorf

Stan's Bruckner is awesome. No argument from me on that point! That Oehms box might be overall my favorite Bruckner cycle, and that it includes the unnumbered F minor and D minor is a point in its favor.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Merl said:


> The 8th from that set is a killer, HP. I have it on my phone at the moment with some other odds and ends of Stan's. Here's a link to a review.


Do you know were I can download the 24bit version the Denon cycle? I can't find them on HDtracks anymore. Thanks!


----------



## Merl

UniversalTuringMachine said:


> Do you know were I can download the 24bit version the Denon cycle? I can't find them on HDtracks anymore. Thanks!


I'll have a look but I don't know off the top of my head. I got them ages ago.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Listened to Karajan’s three studio 7th’s today. I have to say as much as I previously liked the 1971 EMI it sounds downright mellow next to the 1975 BPO on DG. Doesn’t have the spirituality of Furtwängler but nonetheless a powerfully great version. The 1989 VPO definitely has its strong points, obviously the most full, clear sound, but I don’t think it’s as intense and concentrated as either of the two earlier versions. I still like the EMI - it’s got an ethereal distant quality - but man, that scherzo in the BPO DG just leaps out of the speakers!


----------



## Enthusiast

I listened to a live Bruckner 7 from the Proms by the Dresden Staatskapelle under Haitink on YouTube yesterday. It was superb. I don't think I have heard better.


----------



## CnC Bartok

^^^^ Thanks for posting that. I have had a listen and can concur! I seem to remember listening to that one live on Radio 3, a memorable performance.

I am not 100% sure of the purpose of the pert-bottomed young lady. Not the first thing to spring to mind when listening to Bruckner 7, unless you take some of Freud's theories verbatim......


----------



## Azol

This performance is one of my absolute favorites.

Just compare handling of the famous timpani pedal point here and in Haitink video above. Haitink rushes along pressing his timpanist to overpower the whole orchestra ruining the mood completely. Chailly instead makes it sound lyrical and thrilling at the same time, what a masterful balance and what a beautiful tone from strings! And Wagner tubas episode is especially moving while Haitink sounds almost impassioned.
German orchestra with Italian conductor can work miracles! (Giulini.. ahem...)


----------



## Merl

I dragged this one outta the CD rack earlier. Another cracking 7th (one of my faves). Boy, Blomstedt made some great recordings!


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Merl said:


> I dragged this one outta the CD rack earlier. Another cracking 7th (one of my faves). Boy, Blomstedt made some great recordings!


Blomstedt might be my favorite living Brucknerian, his live performances with the BPO on the digital concert hall are also revealatory.


----------



## Knorf

Agreed about the excellence of Blomstedt's Dresden Bruckner !


----------



## Heck148

I've not heard any Blomstedt Bruckner, but I'd like to....I've heard him conduct some really excellent Nielsen and Sibelius.


----------



## Gray Bean

Heck148 said:


> I've not heard any Blomstedt Bruckner, but I'd like to....I've heard him conduct some really excellent Nielsen and Sibelius.[/QUOT
> His B6 with San Francisco SO is one of my favorite records. You should hear it.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

My CD of 1976 Karajan BPO on DG arrived. My favorite stereo version. Just overwhelming.

Also purchased the 1978 Haitink. Both this one and his 1966 are excellent. Warm, unforced, and lyrical. The 1978 has better balanced sound, ideal really, and a more nuanced interpretation. Doesn’t hurt that it’s got an excellent cover. I love the painting of BH.

Chailly is another beautifully balanced sounding recording. Very ethereal.

Wand 1999 with the BPO absolutely bored me. I do not own any Wand and have yet to be convinced to do so. I briefly had his Beethoven 5th and 6th in the mid-90s and promptly returned it. If anyone can clue me in as to what I am missing, feel free.

Tintner was only marginally better.


----------



## UniversalTuringMachine

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My CD of 1976 Karajan BPO on DG arrived. My favorite stereo version. Just overwhelming.
> 
> Also purchased the 1978 Haitink. Both this one and his 1966 are excellent. Warm, unforced, and lyrical. The 1978 has better balanced sound, ideal really, and a more nuanced interpretation. Doesn't hurt that it's got an excellent cover. I love the painting of BH.
> 
> Chailly is another beautifully balanced sounding recording. Very ethereal.
> 
> Wand 1999 with the BPO absolutely bored me. I do not own any Wand and have yet to be convinced to do so. I briefly had his Beethoven 5th and 6th in the mid-90s and promptly returned it. If anyone can clue me in as to what I am missing, feel free.
> 
> Tintner was only marginally better.


One man's "boring" is another man's "authoritative".

Have you tried Venzago's cycle? It's more of a "Mendelsohnian" approach to Bruckner with much lighter vertical sonority, transparent texture, and brisk tempi. If such an idea does not abhor you, you might want to hear it (also uses the original score as in Tintner's cycle). It shows a different side of Bruckner.


----------



## Allegro Con Brio

I will be eternally grateful for Günter Wand’s recordings for helping Bruckner to fully “click” for me. His unforced, sensible approach helped me understand the sprawling structure of the symphonies and everything just fit in perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle. However, I agree that he is quite interpretively bland and I almost never listen to him anymore. I don’t get the love for his Beethoven at all, it just seems too plain. 

Before I totally understood Bruckner, one of my fond memories of first getting into classical music was watching a YouTube video of Abbado (I think in Lucerne?) conducting B7. The Adagio just absolutely destroyed me; I had no idea that music could be so ravishing. By the time the long build-up and climax came around, I was literally pouring tears. To this day I don’t think I’ve had as much of a visceral reaction to music as that.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

I listened to Klemperer yesterday. Not going to win any awards for visceral excitement, but I still liked it. There is also a live BPO version from 1958 (How often did Klemp conduct them?) that is much more engaged despite a slight train wreck in the beginning. He even makes the uneven final movement sound inevitable and exciting.

Leaving the Bruckner 7th for a while, but this is my current list of essential recordings: 


Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (5/1/1951) (Tahra, Music & Arts, Archipel, Andromeda)
Herbert von Karajan/Berlin PO (1974) (DG)
Herbert von Karajan/Berlin PO (1971) (EMI)
Bernard Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1978) (Decca, Philips)
Eduard van Beinum/Concertgebouw Orch. (1947) (Dutton, Tahra, Audiophile)
Riccardo Chailly/RSO Berlin (1984) (Decca)

Furtwängler combines power and beauty with unmatched interpretive insight. The 1951 Rome performance is uniquely inspired. All three of his accounts are live, and none provide ideal sound. Karajan made three excellent studio accounts, all of which are eminently recommendable. The first two lack the full, transparent sound of his valedictory Vienna effort but compensate with greater concentration. The 1974 DG account is the most powerfully urgent, overwhelmingly so in the scherzo. The 1971 EMI account is more mellow and ethereal, yet with plenty of power as well. Haitink is unmannered, natural, and lyrical, with lush playing from the Concertgebouw in beautifully warm sound. Van Beinum presents a noble view that refuses to linger, sounding excellent for its age in the Dutton transfer. Chailly is appropriately mysterious and beautiful, helped by a perfectly balanced acoustic.

Further listening: Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (1949) (EMI), Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (4/23/51) (DG, Music & Arts), Hans Knappertsbusch/Vienna PO (1949) (Orfeo, Music & Arts), Herbert von Karajan/Vienna PO (1989) (DG), Carlo Maria Giulini/Berlin PO (1985) (Testament), Otto Klemperer/Berlin PO (1958) (Music & Arts, Andromeda), Eugen Jochum/Berlin PO (1953) (DG), Bernard Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1966) (Philips), Carlo Maria Giulini/Vienna PO (1986) (DG), Otto Klemperer/Philharmonia Orch. (1960) (EMI), Eduard van Beinum/Concertgebouw Orch. (1953) (Decca, Beulah), Oswald Kabasta/Munich Phil. (1942) (EMI, Preiser), Karl Böhm/Vienna PO (1976) (DG), Eugen Jochum/Berlin PO (1964) (DG), Eugen Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (1976) (EMI), Nikolaus Harnoncourt/Vienna PO (1999) (Teldec), Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish Natl. Orch. (1997) (Naxos), Gunter Wand/Berlin PO (1999) (RCA)


----------



## Knorf

Excellent overview, Brahmsianhorn! 

There's a few more recent or semi-recent Bruckner 7s I think are worthy of comparison with the top, especially Skrowaczewski, but I don't think anyone can fairly accuse you of listening to too few recordings.


----------



## Ravn

My favorite recording of Bruckner's 7th, is Simon Rattle & City of Birmingham SO. By a landslide. Having used some considerable time listening through all the recordings of the seventh I could get my hands on or find streaming, I've come to the conclusion that no other recording even comes close (I do of course like other recordings - I adore the recordings of Karajan, Celibidache, Wand, Blomstedt etc.). The coda of the first movement has an intensity I just don't find in other recordings, and I especially love that the trumpets when going "ta-daah" at the end of the movement is sustained a bit longer than most other recordings. However, it is the adagio that really does it for me - boy do Rattle & Birmingham have an intense build-up to the climax! And when it comes it is eye-watering glorious, with a wonderful balance between the instruments, and an altered timpani part that for me brings the movement to a new level. The other two movements are also great of course. I cannot express well enough how good I think this recording is.

I am biased, of course. This recording was not only the first recording I heard of Bruckner's 7th, but the first recording I ever heard of Bruckner. Needless to say I was hooked, and Bruckner instantly became my favorite composer, which he still is.

The recording is somewhat hard to find, as I can't find it on Youtube or Idagio. It is on Spotify though, but also hard to find there due to creative use of artist and album title. You can find a link below. Please give it a listen! Love it, hate it or call it mediocre - I would love to hear what my fellow Brucknerians think of this recording since I've never seen it mentioned in any Bruckner threads.


----------



## vincula

Excellent list, Brahmsianhorn! I've got many of those at home already.

I'd add Herbert Kegel / Rundfunksinfonieorchester Leipzig 1971 (Weitblick) (recorded at Bethanienkirche) or the '61 live mono broadcast from Rundfunk der DDR with same orchestra (in ODE classics). The last ones are obscure editions made in the USA, licensed by Deutsches Rundfunkarchiv and authorised by Frau Annerose Kegel & the MDR. They look a bit 'homebrew', but do sound great.

















Kegel's Bruckner deserves further audition in general, even though spotting his albums demands some digging. They don't come cheap either. Many are easier to find in Japan through Yahoo auctions and other funny sites. I've got no.3 to no.9 in different editions. A personal fav' of mine.

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Eclectic Al

A recording I got ages ago was Solti. Still like it, although listen to Karajan more now. Also have Jochum in a boxed set. Rarely listen to that because I don't think the recording is so good.
For Bruckner in particular, I want an excellent recording.


----------



## Granate

Bruckner 
Symphony No.7
Berliner Philharmoniker, Carl Schuricht. 
Salzburg Festival 1964

In case anyone, like me, hasn't ever listened to this recording. I still need to rate it, but it was uploaded 11 days ago and it has been a mystery to me since I saw it existed but it couldn't be streamed or purchased anywhere.


----------



## mparta

This is really a bit off for me, as I seldom have room for Klemperer in my choices, but his EMI 7th may have been an early listen and so remains a bit of a favorite, his 6th as well.
When I was a student in music school we were rehearsing Schumann 2 and I don't remember what else, but our conductor gave us freebie one day and had the 7th out. We were enthralled, in a time when Bruckner was not a "thing" as he is now. Getting past that opening is really something, your heart just ascends with the phrase.:kiss:

PS: I heard Haitink's valedictory performance in Berlin. Wow.


----------



## Heck148

mparta said:


> ..... our conductor gave us freebie one day and had the 7th out. We were enthralled, in a time when Bruckner was not a "thing" as he is now. Getting past that opening is really something, your heart just ascends with the phrase.:kiss:


Bruckner 7 indeed has one of the most exquisite openings of any symphony....the horn/cello line, carried forth by the celli just spins out so beautifully, measure upon measure...
I have several favorite performances, but the one that presents the opening the best, for me, is the von Matacic/CzechPO....really gorgeous, so beautifully played. it's a great performance overall, as well...


----------



## mparta

Brahmsianhorn said:


> My CD of 1976 Karajan BPO on DG arrived. My favorite stereo version. Just overwhelming.
> 
> Also purchased the 1978 Haitink. Both this one and his 1966 are excellent. Warm, unforced, and lyrical. The 1978 has better balanced sound, ideal really, and a more nuanced interpretation. Doesn't hurt that it's got an excellent cover. I love the painting of BH.
> 
> Chailly is another beautifully balanced sounding recording. Very ethereal.
> 
> Wand 1999 with the BPO absolutely bored me. I do not own any Wand and have yet to be convinced to do so. I briefly had his Beethoven 5th and 6th in the mid-90s and promptly returned it. If anyone can clue me in as to what I am missing, feel free.
> 
> Tintner was only marginally better.


I heard both Wand and Haitink with the BPO in the 7th. No comparison, hearing the BPO play Bruckner 7 should always be a thing, but Haitink was more than that. I think one of the popular things in the work of Wand in Bruckner was the degree to which he could do a "here's how it goes, I'm getting out of the way" performance. That, for such glorious music, is pretty good, but there is more. It shouldn't be perverted as in some performances looking for relevance or transfiguration with weird tempi (you know who you are) but I think the heavens do open in this music and a great conductor (Haitink) finds that.

My impression of Schuricht was that he drove through the music in a way that was consistent with getting out of the way, but maybe with a bit of undue haste. Such a mama bear

nobody talks about Nezet-Seguin here, and he has Bruckner as one of his "things" with a cycle in Montreal. I heard him with the Philadelphia orchestra in the 7th and I should have been overwhelmed, they should really make the sound like noone else (excepting the BPO, maybe VPO, maybe Concertgebouw). I remember little of it, not a good thing.

Finally, when the music is this good, it's hard to know when to say 'nuff. Fortunate to have such a problem.


----------



## Azol

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Wand 1999 with the BPO absolutely bored me. I do not own any Wand and have yet to be convinced to do so. I briefly had his Beethoven 5th and 6th in the mid-90s and promptly returned it. If anyone can clue me in as to what I am missing, feel free.


Wand/BPO performances are overrated, in my opinion. Recording balance is meh and brass less than stellar (especially in 9th) - not what you would expect from BPO in general.
Wand really shines with NDR SO (again, my personal opinion) and I can only wish they would put out the whole Bruckner/Wand/NDR SO deal as a CD boxset. The DVD box is nice to have but the complete CD box would be sublime.


----------



## Heck148

Azol said:


> Wand/BPO performances are overrated, in my opinion. Recording balance is meh and brass less than stellar (especially in 9th) - not what you would expect from BPO in general.


I tend to agree with you here - I've not been overly impressed with Wand's presentations of Bruckner....on recording Wand with a German orchestra, not BPO, IIRC, I heard at a friend's house - some time ago - #6 or 9, can't recall exactly, but what was memorable was the poor balance in the brass section - it sounded like the 2nd trombone was constantly sticking out, overblowing the first, and the whole section - a loud, blatty sound, that stuck out like a sore thumb....this quickly became annoying, every brass tutti section featured solo-wannabe trombone II blaring forth covering the upper voices....

You don't hear this with the great brass sections in Bruckner - for me, that's Chicago, and ViennaPO....both are great, , very different concepts of sound, but both beautifully balanced, with unanimity of dynamics, tone, articulation....you don't hear some section cowboy overblowing the rest of the ensemble....
I don't have a problem with loud, brilliant, "blatty" playing - in the appropriate places, with good balance, intonation and matching of tones...there should also be a sweet, legato, cantabile sound as well when needed....it's all part of great orchestra playing.


----------



## Becca

Yesterday I was reading a very positive review of one of the other Bruckner symphonies wherein the review, in talking about various ways of playing Bruckner, commented about one :trp: approach:

_"There was a particularly popular approach adopted in a certain American Midwest city where the audience came to enjoy seeing the string/woodwind sections get virtually blown off the front of the stage, rather like fans looking forward to the next fight in a hockey game, I suppose. "_

Having attended a Bruckner 7th concert not many years ago in a certain American Midwest city, all I can say is, ain't that the truth, and they are still doing it :scold:


----------



## Knorf

No question: the worst brass playing I've ever heard live (from a professional orchestra), or in recordings excluding Soviet orchestras, was from the Chicago Symphony.

The supposed fame of the "CSO Brass" strikes me as a bit of a joke. Even when they've been good, I've heard as good or better in many places.

In any case, apropos this thread, there are no Bruckner 7s involving the CSO that I'd recommend. I once had the Solti/CSO Bruckner 7, and it made me think I disliked Bruckner.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> No question: the worst brass playing I've ever heard live (from a professional orchestra), or in recordings excluding Soviet orchestras, was from the Chicago Symphony.


Well, to each his/her own..I'm sure you have a sound basis for your viewpoint...you're probably in the minority here, as the CSO Brass sound and approach seems to be the general model towards which many musicians and orchestras strive, not just nationally...
I kind of like the old Russian approach....pretty heavy on the "edge", not so much pitch...it's not a round, resonant sound, but can be very effective....pretty outrageous at times....
I love the Solti/CSO B7 but also highly recommend the live Tennstedt/CSO from '84...Tennstedt does a few weird things, but nothing too damaging, the Adagio is amazing the great climax has nrver sounded so convincing....the Scherzo from Barenboim's CSO recording is wonderful, really rollicking, the brasses very well-balanced....not always the case with many recordings...

Bruckner 7 is a great work, and so many great conductors and orchestras have produced performances for a wide range of tastes snd preferences...


----------



## Knorf

Please dont misunderstand, at their best the CSO brass can sound really, really good. There are times especially live when they've blown me away in the transcendent sense.

(But so can many other brass sections. I heard a couple years ago the CSO and Montreal within a week, both in Chicago at Orchestra Hall in the Symphony Center, and the Montreal brass were _much_ more impressive. The played like they believed music was important.)

The problem for me is that the CSO brass can also sound very poor by any measure: unbalanced (both as a section and regarding the rest of the orchestra), blatty sound, dodgy intonation, cracked attacks, and to a much more severe degree than I've ever heard from a major orchestra, or even come close to hearing. For example, that Lutosławski CfO I heard a few years ago was absolutely shocking from the brass.

Yes, the received narrative is that the CSO brass is AMAZING teh BEST EVAR!!!!1

This narrative has not held up consistently well in my experience.

There are times when I definitely would have said that I agree. But also times when I really, really wouldn't. And I'm sorry, but a guest conductor or Solti are _no_ excuse. No excuse whatsoever. Even Reiner let Herseth get away with overbalanced blastissimo way too often, even in recordings: a big reason why I don't return much to Reiner/CSO for listening to big orchestra rep. Not everything is a forking trumpet concerto.

The CSO section that has impressed me the most for its virtuosity, precision, good taste, and beauty? The percussion section. They are unbelievably good. And recently I've been loving the strings; under Muti they've developed an incredible warmth the didn't used to have, especially under Solti when steel is real ruled the day. The woodwinds are fine, but rarely play with the distinctive character and effort you hear in the best European orchestras. The brass? I worry whether the good ones or the crass marching band is going to show up.

A great CSO brass concert I heard in the past decade? Hindemith's Concert Music Op. 50. The was really great. Even better on that same concert were the percussion in Mussorgsky/Ravel pictures, and the main thing that was good was Muti made the whole orchestra "sing" together. No overbalanced brass.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> The problem for me is that the CSO brass can also sound very poor by any measure: unbalanced (both as a section and regarding the rest of the orchestra), blatty sound, dodgy intonation, cracked attacks,


I've never heard them in that mode - So many concerts of really demanding music - Mahler 5, Ein Heldenleben, Bruckner 7, Shost 8, more recently - Stravinsky - Sacre, Petrushka - sounded great, never a missed note - loud and soft stuff done perfectly.....once, with Barenboim doing Mahler 7, Clevenger almost cracked a note in a pianissimo solo, but not quite...

I freely admit to being greatly influenced by my musical training and experience - which plays a huge part in every musicians' taste and style, I suppose - Eastman was very strong Chicago/NYPO/Cleveland territory...in the woodwinds and brass, these players were held in most high esteem...big, hefty sounding woodwinds, great brass, that could play soft, lyrical, legato, or could blast forth with stunning levels of sound...Walter Hendl, the school director, and primary conductor demanded that approach - precise rhythmic accuracy, pianissimo was to be ultra-soft, fortissimo was not sufficient unless the back wall fell over....

Chicago has had a bit of turnover in the woodwind principals, but the section is coming together very well, imo...
I'm hoping that Boston's woodwinds come along....they're very good, of course, but I don't hear that section depth, that characteristic sound that takes time to build...Boston's brass is doing quite well, better than it used to be...still some uneven stuff to work out, but I've heard some very fine concerts from them - Mahler 6, Shost 4, 7, Prokofiev 6...


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Okay, I am going to partially retract my statements on Wand from the previous page. I stand by what I said about the 7th. This symphony needs a dynamic advocate on the podium, and IMO Furtwängler and Karajan reign supreme here.

But in the 8th and 9th, I have grown to love the patiently building Wand approach. The late 80s NDR recordings from Lubeck are justly famous, but I even like the BPO versions better for their extra warmth, reflection, and present sound quality. Just beautiful and excellent gateways into these symphonies.

I also like Wand’s BPO 5th, another work that lends itself to the patient “structural” approach.


----------



## Granate

Even being a long-time sceptic of Wand's Bruckner, I was really interested in your statements, Brahmsianhorn. Just today I found very inexpensive, sealed-condition, CD releases of Bruckner's No.5 and No.8 conducted by Günter Wand in Munich. I was actually looking for the Unifinished Schubert symphony and the Berlin recording of Bruckner's No.8. But the Bruckner Munich excerpts both sounded terrific on Spotify (I had barely approached them in my 2016-17 challenges). Now they are ordered and coming to Spain in a week or so.

I don't know if you developed your argument about "structural" Bruckner in other threads. You would be really kind to redirect me towards those since I'm giving second chances to many Bruckner performers among my own CD collection, including the No.7 recordings with the Wiener Philharmoniker by Hans Knappertsbusch and Karl Böhm (DG).


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Granate said:


> I don't know if you developed your argument about "structural" Bruckner in other threads. You would be really kind to redirect me towards those since I'm giving second chances to many Bruckner performers among my own CD collection, including the No.7 recordings with the Wiener Philharmoniker by Hans Knappertsbusch and Karl Böhm (DG).


I can't figure out where my latest lists are located. I raised the level of the Wand 8ths. My original comments in the Bruckner 8th thread on the Lubeck recording were on the wrong one! It is not anywhere on Spotify/Apple and I had to find it finally on YouTube, so the one I originally heard was one of his others. The Lubeck performances do indeed have a special intensity.

The big revelation was the 1954 Furtwangler 8th included in the Orfeo VPO boxset. It is more patient and better recorded of course than the 1944 VPO, similar to the differences between the 1954 Lucerne Beethoven 9th and the wartime version.

Here are my updated lists:

*Symphony No. 8 in C minor *

*Wilhelm Furtwängler/Vienna PO (1944) (DG, Archipel, Music & Arts, Andante, Andromeda)*

This 1944 VPO performance is one of Furtwängler's greatest recordings, presenting intense, inspired interpretation and execution. Seemingly every emotion of the work, from the dramatically angst-ridden to the achingly hushed and poignant, is unearthed here. The sound is remarkably clear for the time even though inevitably allowances must be made for harshness and lack of full sonority.

*Wilhelm Furtwängler/Vienna PO (4/10/1954) (Orfeo, Hunt, Archipel)*

Like the case of Beethoven's 9th, Furtwängler in his final year of life left us a live recording of the Bruckner 8th that complements his uniquely intense wartime interpretation with the same orchestra a decade before. The results may not be as cogently gripping, but the performance is more spacious and less frenetic, displaying all his gifts of phrasing, dramatic narrative, and spirtuality. The present, enhanced sound quality adds significantly to the power and beauty such that for many this may be preferable to the wartime version.

*Günter Wand/Berlin PO (2001) (RCA)*

Eloquence is the hallmark of Wand's valedictory live recording shortly before his death at age 90. Every phrase is lovingly sculpted, and the deeply reflective interpretation displays the wisdom of years. Above all, it is his deft, sensitive handling of the central Adagio that sets Wand's version apart. The entire performance has a unique glow, with the beautiful sound of the BPO enhanced by the rich, full sound quality.

*Günter Wand/NDR SO (1987) (RCA, EMI)*

Recorded live in the Lübeck Cathedral, Wand's 1987 account is one of hushed, spiritual reverence. There is an underlying intensity throughout, and the power is unleashed to great effect at the climax of the Adagio and coda to the Finale. The reverberant acoustic adds a special aura, even if not quite as full and opulent as his final BPO version.

*Herbert von Karajan/Berlin PO (1975) (DG)*

Karajan's intense interpretation is an ideal blueprint for a work with which he was closely identified. The 1975 BPO account is powerful, mystical, and unerring in its musical pacing, particularly in the dramatic Finale. The sound quality is full, present, and opulent.

*Carlo Maria Giulini/Vienna PO (1984) (DG)*

Giulini adds to the list of great VPO accounts, presenting a measured, probing, deeply felt vision from beginning to end that brings out the work's epic grandeur and spiritual qualities. The sound is detailed and present.

*Karl Böhm/Vienna PO (1976) (DG)*

Böhm is grand, opulent, unforced, and with luxurious playing from the VPO, presenting the work naturally in all its Romantic glory. The interpretation is both dramatic and eloquent, captured in perfect sound.

*Herbert von Karajan/Vienna PO (1988) (DG)*

Karajan's 1988 VPO account offers much the same qualities as his earlier version but in more full, detailed sound quality. This is a particularly expansive account, offering more of a valedictory, relaxed interpretation as compared to the earlier version's sense of mystery and magnetic concentration.

*Bernard Haitink/Vienna PO (1995) (Philips)*

Haitink's VPO recording offers an impeccable interpretation in clear, opulent sound without any imposition of the conductor's will. Of particular appeal is the beautifully poignant account of the Adagio.

*Jascha Horenstein/London SO (1970) (Music & Arts, BBC)*

Horenstein barely registers as a live recording in a uniquely powerful, measured, thoughtful version in excellent sound.

*Eduard van Beinum/Concertgebouw Orch. (1955) (Decca, Philips, Beulah)*

Van Beinum presents an urgently dramatic view at a flowing pace, the Concertgebouw captured in their virtuosic splendor in full, present sound for the time period.

*Pierre Boulez/Vienna PO (1996) (DG)*

Boulez offers incredibly detailed sound in a very impressive, incisive reading, with perfect pacing and execution.

Further listening:

Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (3/15/1949) (Audite, Music & Arts)
Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (3/14/1949) (Testament)
Hans Rosbaud/SW German RSO (1955) (Andromeda, SWR Classics, Urania)
Hans Knappertsbusch/Berlin PO (1951) (Audite, Tahra, Music & Arts, Andromeda, Profil)
Sir John Barbirolli/Hallé Orchestra, BBC NSO (1963) (Barbirolli Society)
Günter Wand/NDR SO (1993) (RCA)
Carlo Maria Giulini/Philharmonia Orch. (1983) (BBC)
Hans Knappertsbusch/Vienna PO (1961) (IDIS, Music & Arts, Altus, Archipel, Melodram)
Sir John Barbirolli/Hallé Orchestra (1970) (BBC, Hunt)
Rafael Kubelik/Bavarian RSO (1963) (Orfeo)
Bernard Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1981) (Philips)
Rafael Kubelik/Bavarian RSO (1977) (BR-Klassik)
Herbert von Karajan/Prussian Staatskapelle Berlin (mov. 2-4) (1944) (Koch, Iron Needle)
Bernard Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1969) (Philips/Decca)
Herbert von Karajan/Vienna PO (1957) (Orfeo)
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken RSO (1993) (Arte Nova, Oehms)
Klaus Tennstedt/Berlin PO (1981) (Testament)
Eugen Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (1976) (EMI)
Carlo Maria Giulini/Berlin PO (1984) (Testament)
Carlos Païta/Philharmonic SO (1982) (Lodia)
Eugen Jochum/Hamburg St. PO (1949) (DG)
George Szell/Cleveland Orch. (1969) (Sony)
Sergiu Celibidache/Stuttgart RSO (1976) (DG)
Klaus Tennstedt/London PO (1982) (EMI)
Lorin Maazel/Berlin PO (1989) (EMI)
Sergiu Celibidache/Munich PO (1993) (Warner/EMI)
Herbert von Karajan/Berlin PO (1957) (EMI)
Hans Knappertsbusch/Munich Phil. (1963) (Decca, MCA, Living Stage, Memories)
Carl Schuricht/Vienna PO (1963) (EMI)
Eugen Jochum/Berlin PO (1964) (DG)
Giuseppe Sinopoli/Staatskapelle Dresden (1994) (DG)

*Symphony No. 9 in D minor*

*Carlo Maria Giulini/Vienna PO (1988) (DG)*

Monumental and deeply moving, Giulini's expansive interpretation fits this symphony like a glove. The momentum never sags so that the effect is hyptonic and at times awe-inspiring. The VPO is glorious and committed, and the impressive sound quality only serves to enhance one of the great Bruckner interpretations on record.

*Günter Wand/Berlin PO (1998) (RCA)*

Wand's late live recording may seem understated, but it proves to be a beautifully patient reading with immaculate phrasing and magnetic concentration. Indeed, he arguably does a better job than anyone at making a cohesive whole out of this magnificent work, with the BPO offering gorgeous playing in sumptuous, detailed sound quality.

*Wilhelm Furtwängler/Berlin PO (1944) (Praga, DG, Archipel, Music & Arts, Andromeda)*

This intense, apocalyptic performance is from the last months of World War II, and one cannot help but imagine the emotions conjured up within that context. This is the only surviving document of a work Furtwängler revered, and the preserved insights are invaluable with phrases that are deeply and poignantly communicated despite the obvious limitations in fullness and detail from the sound quality.

*Günter Wand/NDR SO (1988) (RCA, EMI)*

This live concert from a decade earlier than Wand's Berlin outing is perhaps a shade less reflective and yet more biting, hushed, and intense while displaying his magical way with the score. Not only is the playing superlative, but the unique acoustic of the Lübeck Cathedral lends an ethereal quality befitting the work.

*Herbert von Karajan/Berlin PO (1975) (DG)*

Karajan and the BPO produced a groundbreaking, intense recording of the 9th in 1966, still revered by many. Their 1975 remake features the same unsurpassed, massive sense of power but with even stronger definition and helped by excellent sound. Karajan is as ever magnetic in his pacing and understanding of Brucknerian architecture.

*Hans Knappertsbusch/Berlin PO (1/30/1950) (Tahra, Audite, Music & Arts, Memories)*

Knappertsbusch is unique in his flexible, propulsive energy, with passionate playing from the BPO captured in rich, present mono sound. Two versions were recorded days apart, the first one for radio broadcast and the second live. Both are excellent, and although the first is certainly recommendable for the absence of audience noise, this live outing is even more thrilling provided one is not too distracted by the presence of intermittent coughs.

*Daniel Barenboim/Berlin PO (1990) (Warner/Teldec)*

Barenboim offers an inspired interpretation devoid of pretense, simply presenting the 9th in all its glory within a perfectly apt, opulent Brucknerian sound world. The Berliners produce fabulous tone and seem to relish in the freedom to play away.

*Eugen Jochum/Staatskapelle Dresden (1978) (EMI)*

Jochum and the Dresdeners take a no holds barred approach, blazing with intensity as well as featuring the conductor's consummate skill and affection in pacing and phrasing. 
*
Bernard Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1981) (Philips)
*
It may seem like a back-handed compliment to say that Haitink's interpretation is straight-forward, but his unforced approach is pure gain. The Concertgebouw plays with all the power and beauty for which they are known, enhanced by clear and opulent digital sound.

*Bruno Walter/Columbia SO (1959) (Sony)*

Walter in his "Indian summer" eschews extremes of emotion in an interpretation that is noble and direct, yet not lacking for power, highlighting Walter's immaculate gift for phrasing. The orchestral contribution is excellent, with present, detailed recording quality.

*Eduard van Beinum/Concertgebouw Orch. (1956) (Decca, Philips, Beulah)*

Van Beinum is vital and passionate within a fairly contained, efficient interpretation. With luscious playing from the Concertgebouw and full, present mono sound, this is vintage Bruckner performance of the highest caliber.

*Manfred Honeck/Pittsburgh SO (2018) (Reference Recordings)*

Honeck's version has the advantage of superlative sound quality, with excellent dynamic range and clarity. The interpretation is thoroughly engaging, with powerful attacks, beautifully turned phrases, and an impressively hushed, sustained Adagio.

Further listening:

Hans Knappertsbusch/Berlin PO (1/28/1950) (Tahra, Audite, Urania, Music & Arts, Profil, Andromeda, Memories, Foyer)
Herbert von Karajan/Berlin PO (1966) (DG)
Oswald Kabasta/Munich PO (1943) (Music & Arts, Dante Lys)
Sir John Barbirolli/Hallé Orch. (1966) (BBC)
F. Charles Adler/Vienna SO (1952) (Music & Arts)
Sigmund von Hausegger/Munich PO (1938) (EMI, Preiser)
Eugen Jochum/Berlin PO (1964) (DG)
Evgeny Mravinsky/Leningrad PO (1980) (BMG/Melodiya, Altus)
Rafael Kubelik/Bavarian RSO (1985) (Orfeo)
Jascha Horenstein/BBC SO (1970) (BBC, Music & Arts)
Marek Janowski/Orch. de la Suisse Romande (2009) (Pentatone)
Claudio Abbado/Lucerne FO (2013) (DG)
Wolfgang Sawallisch/Bavarian St. Orch. (1984) (Orfeo)
Carl Schuricht/Stuttgart RSO (1951) (Hänssler, Music & Arts)
Nikolaus Harnoncourt/Vienna PO (2002) (RCA)
Daniel Barenboim/Chicago SO (1975) (DG)
Günter Wand/NDR SO (1993) (RCA)
Bernard Haitink/Concertgebouw Orch. (1965) (Philips)
Fabio Luisi/Staatskapelle Dresden (2007) (Sony) 
Sergiu Celibidache/Stuttgart RSO (1974) (DG)
Stanislaw Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken RSO (2001) (Arte Nova, Oehms) 
Bruno Walter/New York PO (1957) (Music & Arts)
Johannes Wildner/Neue PO (with completed Finale) (1998) (Naxos) 
Lovro von Matačić/Czech PO (1980) (Supraphon)
Georg Tintner/Royal Scottish Natl. Orch. (1997) (Naxos) 
Carl Schuricht/Vienna PO (1961) (EMI)
Leonard Bernstein/Vienna PO (1990) (DG)
Carlo Maria Giulini/Chicago SO (1976) (EMI) 
Georg Solti/Chicago SO (1985) (Decca)


----------



## Ice Berg

I accidentally added an extremely slow Jochum version to a Spotify playlist; it's torturous! I like Karajan; I love Furtwängler.


----------



## Knorf

Heck148 said:


> Well, to each his/her own..I'm sure you have a sound basis for your viewpoint...you're probably in the minority here, as the CSO Brass sound and approach seems to be the general model towards which many musicians and orchestras strive, not just nationally...


When they're at their best, which I've also been privileged to hear many times, I would not hesitate to say that they should be.

The problem is, at least where the low brass are concerned, I've also sometimes heard them sound very far from their best. And many CSO recordings of standard repertoire of the past, in my opinion, are marred by inappropriately overbalanced brass playing, to a greater or lesser extent. Maybe they let their fame get to their head.

But having said that, of course I also own many CSO recordings that I treasure.

In general, I almost never look to American orchestras for illuminatung performances of standard repertoire. It'll be very polished, and consistent, but also too often very dull. I blame 50 years of an audition process that egregiously elevates technical precision and arbitrary consistency over artistry, personality, or musicality.


----------



## Granate

Ice Berg said:


> I accidentally added an extremely slow Jochum version to a Spotify playlist; it's torturous! I like Karajan; I love Furtwängler.







I don't know if you mean this one, Tokyo 1986, 75m long. It's not a bad performance. But I would never call it too slow compared to the Celibidache in EMI or the Berlin performance.






This is the other Bruckner No.7 Jochum performance I recommend apart from my absolute favourite Dresden recording. Munich in 1977. It's Jochum at his best too.










By the way, I played my Böhm CD of the Bruckner No.7 in Vienna and the DG Sound Quality was outstanding. I really loved the performance as well. A keeper.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> .....I blame 50 years of an audition process that egregiously elevates technical precision and arbitrary consistency over artistry, personality, or musicality.


I agree that the present day audition process has tended to "homogenize" instrumental performance. First round of orchestral auditions may either be by CD/tape/recording of some sort heard by an "audition committee". Same with live audition - there is a mixed bag of listeners probably from different sections of the orchestra...

The goal on the early rounds is to be careful, accurate, meticulous, "color inside the black lines" at all times, do nothing outrageous or controversial. It's not until later rounds, with music director present, or actually playing with the orchestra that individual expression and artistry are strongly exhibited...the result is a rather homogenized "Bb" approach that will be acceptable for whatever orchestra and position an applicant seeks to attain. the result is that the 2nd or 3rd tier orchestras are very good, technically and consistently...but they all sound rather the same.

I suppose the present day process is more "fair" - playing behind screen, etc - it does eliminate gender or ethnic discrimination, [tho I wonder how much that stuff really counts these days??] - but I'm not sure it produces a more expressive, exciting, individual approach to music-making.

In past years, the conductor made the choices - often with individual auditions in a hotel room, when the orchestra was touring, by special invitation, etc, etc...the conductors knew what sound they wanted, whose playing would fit in...who would add to the approach and style that they were seeking to build.

Yes, this meant that many positions were filled by the back door, were inside jobs, not generally open to all musicians....but it did produce remarkably fine orchestras, that played with an individual, often easily identifiable sound and style. Guys like Szell, Reiner, Ormandy knew exactly what they wanted - what players they wanted in their orchestra, and they had no qualms about "stealing" these musicians from other ensembles.

I remember one of the first auditions I ever took [early 70s] - medium sized rehearsal room - the conductor was there, the concertmaster and IIRC, a couple of the wind or brass principals....when I finished, the conductor said essentially "I want him" - and I had the job...no screen, no cd recording, no committee, the conductor made the call. I guess my playing fit in with his concept of what he wanted...


----------



## Knorf

To be fair, not all audition committees eschew an significant expectation for high artistic, distinctive, soloistic playing, at least for principal players. I think my big audition days are behind me, but I've heard word of the pendulum swinging back, at least for the best, biggest U.S. orchestras. I hope so.

And, despite everything I wrote, the CSO _is_ an American orchestra where I'm usually interested in hearing standard repertoire, depending on the conductor. As I mentioned up thread, there was a CSO/Muti Mussorgsky-Ravel _Pictures_ in the last decade that was one of the greatest live musical experiences I've ever had!

If I get the chance to hear Bruckner 7 live in Chicago in the future, I will not hesitate.

ETA: it's because I love them so much that it's so disappointing to me when something is off...


----------



## Becca

Knorf said:


> If I get the chance to hear Bruckner 7 live in Chicago in the future, I will not hesitate.


I have, with Muti, and not that many years ago either. I couldn't speak to the technical qualities but the overall balance was inordinately skewed toward the brass. I was quite disappointed particularly as I went with two friends who don't know a lot about classical music and who had never heard Bruckner before. They (claimed to) enjoy it (actually I believe them!) but it was certainly not the best introduction.


----------



## Knorf

Becca said:


> I have, with Muti, and not that many years ago either. I couldn't speak to the technical qualities but the overall balance was inordinately skewed toward the brass.


That's disappointing. I heard a Bruckner 9 (incomplete in three movements) with CSO/Muti and thought it was very fine. So it is.


----------



## Heck148

Becca said:


> I have, with Muti, and not that many years ago either. I couldn't speak to the technical qualities but the overall balance was inordinately skewed toward the brass. I was quite disappointed particularly as I went with two friends who don't know a lot about classical music and who had never heard Bruckner before. They (claimed to) enjoy it (actually I believe them!) but it was certainly not the best introduction.


I heard CSO perform Bruckner 9 with both Haitink and Muti...very excellent both times..and yes, very powerful brass [just the way I like it]...also Bruckner 8 with Bychkov....that was really outstanding.


----------



## Heck148

Knorf said:


> To be fair, not all audition committees eschew an significant expectation for high artistic, distinctive, soloistic playing, at least for principal players. I think my big audition days are behind me, but I've heard word of the pendulum swinging back, at least for the best, biggest U.S. orchestras. I hope so.


As a long time personnel manager/contractor I organized and listened in on many, many auditions for orchestra positions....i always tried to get the involved principals to join in the process...
I have a bit of a problem with a section violinist or violist voicing a strong opinion on, say, a woodwind or brass candidate...who are they to tell me who will be the best candidate for 2nd basoon??
I was certainly reserved in my evaluation of string candidates - other than strictly objective observation ie - poor intonation, sloppy rhythm, etc...but the string principals can hear, tell if someone is going to be a positive addition to the section...I'd leave the decision to the conductor and string principals
One must always be mindful of how a particular candidate is going to mesh with the incumbent section players...esp in woodwind, brass percussion, where there are only few players in that section.


----------



## Granate

Live recording of the Musikverein concert Karajan gave while he was recording this symphony for the last time. It's from one of the pirate releases and the SQ is bold but noisy. Cheers.


----------



## savae

My favorites in order are:

01.Abendroth Berlin 1956 studio (Tahra 1995) & Live (Tahra 2007)
02.Knappertsbusch Viena 1949 Live (Orfeo) & Cologne Live 1963 (Orfeo)
03.Furtwängler Berlin 1949 Live (iso Warner,EMI TOCE)
04.Böhm Viena 1976 studio (iso Tower)
05.Schuricht Hague 1964 studio (iso Denon)
06.Matacic Cezch PO 1967 Live (iso Denon)
07.Karajan Berlin 1975 Studio (iso DG)
08.Giulini Viena 1986 Live (Memories)
09.Jochum ONF 1980 Live (Montaigne)
10.keilberth NHK 1968 Live (King Records)
11.Celibidache Tokyo 1990 Live (iso Sony)


----------



## kangxi

Knorf said:


> In any case, praise for Karajan's Bruckner 7 is certainly widespread. The only dispute usually is which of his is the best, of the three!


3? John Berky's database lists 7 with the Berlin Phil & 7 with the Vienna Phil (and none with any other orchestra)! That's almost the dictionary definition of a glut. We could probably have a separate thread discussing just those 14 performances...


----------



## Knorf

kangxi said:


> 3? John Berky's database lists 7 with the Berlin Phil & 7 with the Vienna Phil (and none with any other orchestra)!...


I was talking about the official, authorized releases. Most of the others are bootlegs of various live performances, which I wasn't counting.


----------



## ScottK

helenora said:


> as Celi said : In Spain, France, Germany they play Bruckner several times a year, but do they really play Bruckner? They have never played Bruckner in their lives." So is my opinion. Celi forever. If I were him I would have used stronger words as for describing Celibidache vs everyone else, so called conductors


But do you know exactly what he is referring to about how they play Bruckner?


----------



## ScottK

Just looking through this thread for the first time I thought I'd see some votes for Van Beinum. Haven't heard it in awhile but I always thought that Concertgebouw sound was the real deal for Bruckner and yet he somehow had a lightness about his approach at the same time. I thought it was great....been awhile. maybe he got mentioned on threads I missed .


----------



## ScottK

Knorf said:


> Please dont misunderstand, at their best the CSO brass can sound really, really good. There are times especially live when they've blown me away in the transcendent sense.
> 
> (But so can many other brass sections. I heard a couple years ago the CSO and Montreal within a week, both in Chicago at Orchestra Hall in the Symphony Center, and the Montreal brass were _much_ more impressive. The played like they believed music was important.)
> 
> The problem for me is that the CSO brass can also sound very poor by any measure: unbalanced (both as a section and regarding the rest of the orchestra), blatty sound, dodgy intonation, cracked attacks, and to a much more severe degree than I've ever heard from a major orchestra, or even come close to hearing. For example, that Lutosławski CfO I heard a few years ago was absolutely shocking from the brass.
> 
> Yes, the received narrative is that the CSO brass is AMAZING teh BEST EVAR!!!!1
> 
> This narrative has not held up consistently well in my experience.
> 
> There are times when I definitely would have said that I agree. But also times when I really, really wouldn't. And I'm sorry, but a guest conductor or Solti are _no_ excuse. No excuse whatsoever. Even Reiner let Herseth get away with overbalanced blastissimo way too often, even in recordings: a big reason why I don't return much to Reiner/CSO for listening to big orchestra rep. Not everything is a forking trumpet concerto.
> 
> The CSO section that has impressed me the most for its virtuosity, precision, good taste, and beauty? The percussion section. They are unbelievably good. And recently I've been loving the strings; under Muti they've developed an incredible warmth the didn't used to have, especially under Solti when steel is real ruled the day. The woodwinds are fine, but rarely play with the distinctive character and effort you hear in the best European orchestras. The brass? I worry whether the good ones or the crass marching band is going to show up.
> 
> A great CSO brass concert I heard in the past decade? Hindemith's Concert Music Op. 50. The was really great. Even better on that same concert were the percussion in Mussorgsky/Ravel pictures, and the main thing that was good was Muti made the whole orchestra "sing" together. No overbalanced brass.


I'm new to the Forum and spend most of my time talking opera. But Ive started coming over here some too and I loved reading your post. I'm not a musician and had never developed the sense of really listening to individual sections of an orchestra so intently but I think it would be a great step forward for me...in the correct spirit of course....not to decide who is better, but as a way of drawing me further into the performance.


----------

