# Do People...



## Emmnemms (Nov 3, 2009)

(again, about the Essay I am doing, sorry if i am getting annoying, as i said before, i really don't know much about classical)

But, anyways 
Some people obviously have problems listing to lets say, Wagner (easy example)b/c of his person views against the Jews, but why don't people seem to mind the beethoven was... not a very nice guy? that Mozart was a egotistical, argumentative person? Where would you say the line is? (Im not judging, just wondering what you think, i haven't decided my line yet)
Why do the most religious people, the priests or devote atheists, or your religion of choice, that really look down on all the people who are not part of their church, thinking everyone else will just burn in hell, why do they still listen to all these composers that, some that some very strongly believed other wise, or had strange or no religious belife at all?

Is it possibly b/c people like to listen to what others say? You bring up Wagner in a group of people (at least that know a little about classical music) and you get all this hate in the air, 
but you bring up someone like beethoven, or pablo picasso, or mozart, and they ignore all these faults and just see the person?

Or in more modern music, bring up someone, say Green Day to an older person and you hear all about how horrible they are, everything under the sun they can blame on them, they do. But bring up Billy Joel, or simon and Garfunkle, or...Brad Paisley and they have no problem with them, when if you get into it, they did many of the same things that green day did, but they just over look it... (btw, i don't like green day and i do like billy joel, s&g)

where do people draw this line? what makes them draw the line? what determines what is ok and what isn't? how would these people react if they didn't know this about the person and just heard the music? If they heard all the bad things BJ did, would they write him off as well? (btw, these were just examples off the top of my head... first people i came up with) I don't think I understand people very well... (sorry about the rant... i was think-typing)


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

I think people have a bad opinion of Wagner for more than just his personal flaws like his anti-semitism or his egotistical behaviour, but because he was held up by Hitler and the Third Reich as beng the ideal of superior German music and has since become inextricably linked with the atrocities of that regime. Bruckner was also regarded as a template of Aryan music in Nazi Germany but since he had no anti-semitic views and gave the impression of a more humble man he isn't vilified anywhere near as much as Wagner.

Beethoven, Picasso, Schumann, Degas, Miles Davis, Chopin, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane etc conform to the Romantic ideal of a troubled and tormented genius who can only truly express themselves through their art. Their flaws and eccentricities can easily be overlooked as they appeared to have no vitriol and hate in them. Their failings of personality seemed to be more self-destructive than outwardly problematic and people can sympathise with them or at least feel some pity towards the personal troubles they had overcome to create their art.

In regards to the modern music suggestion, I think it's just that people are generally very conservative and tend to form their opinion of what music should sound like in their teens and early twenties. Any music that doesn't conform to this disposition especially newer music they reject as being inferior. Most people will always like the music of their childhood as it brings back good memories. I am probably an exception in that I am a child of the 90's but mainly listen to stuff from the 70's or earlier and feel more embarassed at some of the rubbish i used to listen and don't feel much nostalgia towards it. Maybe in 30/40 years I will feel more nostalgic, who knows.

I think, to summarise, people mainly object to prejudices and extreme political/philosophical beliefs held by the artist rather than their actual personality as most people will never meet them in person.


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## Emmnemms (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks  This is confusing to me, it seems like people like to make up their own opinions, that one thing is ok, while another isn't...

(btw, should have brought up someone other than wagner... but at midnight after being a stage hand to a middle school concert, the only one that i could think of.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Personally i dont draw a line and i will listen to anything regardless of the artists opinions, of course it is always important to look at a piece in the context of the artists life, but personally I have no issues with Wagner the man either.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Here's a whole conversation we had on the topic, enjoy:

http://www.talkclassical.com/6845-does-politics-spoil-your.html


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## Emmnemms (Nov 3, 2009)

Lol Luke, i have already read that whole convo. I was meaning to go more for the personal traits in their lives, i guess for me, political views are no worse than being a drunk or an atheist, or egotistical... guess i have to remember that they are on different playing fields... and not be thinking about stuff like this at midnight when i have access to the internet


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## nefigah (Aug 23, 2008)

I think Argus is entirely correct. The difference is more in how their music was used than the views or personality of the composer. I think that's why people (for example) think organ music is "spooky," even though its composers were often religious and wrote it for that purpose. People just remember it being used in horror movies or whatever.


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

In my opinion, as long as the composer's own emotions are injected into it, it's absolutely engrossing to take a look at the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm getting pretty repetitive, aren't I?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you're talking about music, that should be the subject, not the personality, likeable or not, of the composers.

Many people really cannot disassociate the artist from their work. One should not, entirely, but I fail, for example, to 'hear' one shred of 'anti-semitism' in the actual notes Wagner wrote.

I don't hear the clinical conditions Mozart supposedly had in Mozart.


Etc. Etc.

From the romantic age on people have become fascinated with 'the cult of personality.' I think you would find in an essay on music in a university music department, for example, that the less said about the composer and the more said about the music, the better.

There is only so much explaining the work, or attributing various aspects of it, to the composers 'personality' - at least their personality when they are not composing!


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## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

Major thread necro  This thread is turning into a relic.


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