# Classical Composers - What are you reading, studying & planning?



## paulc

This thread is for those who like myself consider themselves to be in an extended learning phase.

Aside from some practical exercises, I haven't written any new 'music' for several years! 

After reading both 'The Study of Counterpoint & Fugue' by Alfred Mann, I'm close to finishing 'A Practical Approach to Eighteenth Century Counterpoint' by Robert Gauldin - which is informed, but not nearly as insightful as the former books. Next, I am reading 'Harmonic Practice in Tonal Music', also by Gauldin. After that, 'Double Counterpoint & Canon' by Ebenezer Prout and 'Convertible Counterpoint' by Taneiev.

I will then study Bach's WTC & The Art of Fugue, before getting back to writing.

I have several (poorly) orchestrated compositions running 3 minutes which I intend to develop/extend to 10 or 15 minutes with my new-found knowledge of composition & orchestration, obtained after both university & private study.

How about you?


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## Vasks

I am glad to see that you are studying more in depth. I've been rather saddened by the way a number of recent posters here openly mock formal study and nearly revel in their ignorance.

A book that I highly recommend is "The Technique and Spirit of Fugue" by George Oldroyd.

And believe it or not I took one class with Robert Gauldin back in the early 70's. It dealt with how to teach undergrad theory via each of us grad students teaching "our class" a typical theory topic. I had to teach "our class" augmented sixth chords.


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## Larkenfield

Bravo to both of you. Rather than flying by the seat of your pants on momentary inspiration like the confirmed amateurs, you're actually learning important fundamentals of composition that will help you fully develop your ideas and complete what you start. Bravo for making the genuine effort and putting in the necessary work like a real rather than pretend composer. Inspiration alone will always run into problems with the lack of how-to to solve them. On the other hand, sincere and conscientious dedication to learning the principles that govern music is always rewarded. Then later the rules can be broken.


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## Vasks

Larkenfield said:


> Then later the rules can be broken.


Absolutely! But at least we can justify why. 

But seriously, when this discussion comes up what gets lost is that the study of counterpoint is not for us 21st century composers to adhere and follow slavishly. But rather the study induces the important elements of discipline and consideration of the interaction of voices no matter the style or harmonic organization.


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## Phil loves classical

I prefer a more hands-on approach to analyzing music, by listening to what piano composers are doing in pieces and their modulations, etc. and listening or looking at the score, rather than reading books, except for the more rudimentary. I have no interest in composing a fugue or orchestrating. The composer I'm most captivated by is Bartok. I wouldn't mind reading more on his music.


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## paulc

Phil loves classical said:


> I prefer a more hands-on approach to analyzing music, by listening to what piano composers are doing in pieces and their modulations, etc. and listening or looking at the score, rather than reading books, except for the more rudimentary.


I also believe that reading theory books should not be an end in itself. Only after putting the theory into practice in original compositions does its value become apparent. I worked through about 300 of the practical exercises laid out in Gradus Ad Parnassum.

Once I understand what I'm actually looking at on the page, then I will switch back to listening to works of interest with the score in hand.

Thanks for the book recommendation Vasks. I'm keen to hear what other aspiring composers are studying.


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## nikola

Vasks said:


> I am glad to see that you are studying more in depth. I've been rather saddened by the way a number of recent posters here openly mock formal study and nearly revel in their ignorance.
> 
> A book that I highly recommend is "The Technique and Spirit of Fugue" by George Oldroyd.
> 
> And believe it or not I took one class with Robert Gauldin back in the early 70's. It dealt with how to teach undergrad theory via each of us grad students teaching "our class" a typical theory topic. I had to teach "our class" augmented sixth chords.


You should be even more sad since best composers of 20th/21st century don't have formal musical education. I guess that's why you're not amongst them.


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## childed

I've study now with some books abt composing and architectonics. I have finish a few trios for recording, but i can't fingering it pretty clear, so i have practice everyday with guitars, drums and tabla.
I think to compose my first rondo soon, 'cos my trios is good for now.
I also analyze the favorite classical works daily.


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## Phil loves classical

nikola said:


> You should be even more sad since best composers of 20th/21st century don't have formal musical education. I guess that's why you're not amongst them.


if you are referring to J. Bieber and T. Swift then I would agree.

"I picked up a few guitar chords and progressions, and that was the start. The few formal lessons I had seemed too much like math, and I preferred to work with feelings and emotion" - Taylor Swift


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a quote from Debussy which is an interesting perspective (one that I suscribe to personally) that I posted elsewhere, but think it is worthwhile to repeat here: 

"I am more and more convinced that music, by its very nature, is something that cannot be cast into a traditional and fixed form. It is made up of colors and rhythms. The rest is a lot of humbug, invented by frigid imbeciles riding on the backs of the Masters - who, for the most part, wrote almost nothing but period music. Bach alone had an idea of the truth."


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> if you are referring to J. Bieber and T. Swift then I would agree.
> 
> "I picked up a few guitar chords and progressions, and that was the start. The few formal lessons I had seemed too much like math, and I preferred to work with feelings and emotion" - Taylor Swift


No, I'm referring to real musicians and not someone like Vasks who's composing cartoon music or you who's composing music for 70's sexploitations crime drama horror movies :devil:


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## Phil loves classical

nikola said:


> No, I'm referring to real musicians and not someone like Vasks who's composing cartoon music or you who's composing music for 70's sexploitations crime drama horror movies :devil:


Hey, thanks for the compliment


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> Hey, thanks for the compliment


:cheers: :trp: .


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## Torkelburger

nikola said:


> No, I'm referring to real musicians and not someone like Vasks who's composing cartoon music or you who's composing music for 70's sexploitations crime drama horror movies :devil:


And they're still better than the noodly saccharine you write :devil:


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## Torkelburger

nikola said:


> You should be even more sad since best composers of 20th/21st century don't have formal musical education.


No, not really, it's actually quite reassuring that composers with formal training win the Grawemeyer every year, the Pulitzer every year, the Grammy for best composition every year, and are regularly commissioned by the top chamber and orchestra organizations of the world.


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## nikola

Torkelburger said:


> No, not really, it's actually quite reassuring that composers with formal training win the Grawemeyer every year, the Pulitzer every year, the Grammy for best composition every year, and are regularly commissioned by the top chamber and orchestra organizations of the world.


Hamburger, so you're saying that Zimmer, Yanni, Vangelis etc. have musical education.
WRONG! :devil:


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## Torkelburger

nikola said:


> Hamburger, so you're saying that Zimmer, Yanni, Vangelis etc. have musical education.
> WRONG! :devil:


Um, no. No, I'm not. See here (you will not find their names):

http://grawemeyer.org/music-composition/#toggle-id-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize_for_Music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Classical_Contemporary_Composition


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## nikola

Torkelburger said:


> Um, no. No, I'm not. See here (you will not find their names):
> 
> http://grawemeyer.org/music-composition/#toggle-id-3
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize_for_Music
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Best_Classical_Contemporary_Composition


grawhat? This is some elitist award competition that nobody knows anything about except few members from TC?


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## Torkelburger

nikola said:


> grawhat? This is some elitist award competition that nobody knows anything about except few members from TC?


Why assume everyone is as ignorant as yourself about such matters? No. With composers such as Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Penderecki, Takemitsu, Adams, Boulez, and Kurtág actively submitting pieces and eventually winning the award, and with the award being $100,000 cash, it is one of the most widely-known competitions in classical composition. If you subscribe to The Composer's Site, like thousands of other composers, you'll get notification and instructions for submission for when this competition is accepting submissions.


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## paulc

Musical education is elitist. :lol:



Taylor Swift said:


> I picked up a few guitar chords and progressions, and that was the start. The few formal lessons I had seemed too much like math, and I preferred to work with feelings and emotion


"I picked up a few guitar chords and progressions, and that was the start. *Also, the end!* The few formal lessons I had seemed too much like *effort*, and I preferred to *make no effort*"

Fixed!

"Study is pleasure rather than a task"


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## nikola

When I become great world dictator, there will be no more classical music awards. Everybody will also have to create music from zero. No more building reputations on fugues. Fugues will be forbidden.


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## Tchaikov6

nikola said:


> When I become great world dictator, there will be no more classical music awards. Everybody will also have to create music from zero. No more building reputations on fugues. Fugues will be forbidden.


That is such a ridiculous comment I can't even... I don't even know where to start.


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## nikola

Tchaikov6 said:


> That is such a ridiculous comment I can't even... I don't even know where to start.


Start by telling us something about your lack of humor and intelligence. :tiphat:


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## Tchaikov6

nikola said:


> Start by telling us something about your lack of humor and intelligence. :tiphat:[/QUOTE
> 
> Well, some of your serious comments in the past have been so stupid that I was sure you were joking. I can never be sure with you Nikola.


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## nikola

Tchaikov6 said:


> nikola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Start by telling us something about your lack of humor and intelligence. :tiphat:[/QUOTE
> 
> Well, some of your serious comments in the past have been so stupid that I was sure you were joking. I can never be sure with you Nikola.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so you confirmed now that you're not able to leave intelligent comment. Now tell something about your lack of humor!
Click to expand...


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## Tchaikov6

nikola said:


> Tchaikov6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so you confirmed now that you're not able to leave intelligent comment. Now tell something about your lack of humor!
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you know I'm right with the previous statement... both of us know. You're pulling something that u accuse me of doing often- diverting the topic and changing the direction of the conversation. With this you've just shown me that you are hypocritical as well as senseless and quite rude.
Click to expand...


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## nikola

Tchaikov6 said:


> nikola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you know I'm right with the previous statement... both of us know. You're pulling something that u accuse me of doing often- diverting the topic and changing the direction of the conversation. With this you've just shown me that you are hypocritical as well as senseless and quite rude.
> 
> 
> 
> Just another meaningless nonsense that you simply pull out of nowhere from that empty space in your head pretending that it is actually connected with something.
> I will still become a dictator and make you destroy all the fugues!
Click to expand...


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## Xinver

I consider every discipline, or language, or whatever as a tool for composing.
I don't like writing music that resembles romanticism, classicism or the baroque era. However, I think my studies on couterpoint (classic counterpoint) are essential in my contemporary style.

Apart from that, I'm studying now linear harmony.


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## Tchaikov6

nikola said:


> Tchaikov6 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just another meaningless nonsense that you simply pull out of nowhere from that empty space in your head pretending that it is actually connected with something.
> I will still become a dictator and make you destroy all the fugues!
> 
> 
> 
> That's a hilarious joke, seeing as you did the same exact thing a couple posts ago.
> 
> But I have a sense of humor, I know there is no possible way you could be serious in the sentences I quoted.
Click to expand...


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## nikola

Tchaikov6 said:


> nikola said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's a hilarious joke, seeing as you did the same exact thing a couple posts ago.
> 
> But I have a sense of humor, I know there is no possible way you could be serious in the sentences I quoted.
> 
> 
> 
> And you will be my slave and you will become famous as - the fugue destroyer!
Click to expand...


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## Tchaikov6

nikola;1316085
And you will be my slave and you will become famous as - the fugue destroyer![/QUOTE said:


> Ok you have fun with that!


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## Sekhar

What are you guys reading on counterpoint for today's compositions (i.e., not say eighteenth century style)? More importantly, has any of you composed a modern sounding contrapunctal piece? Because reading up is one thing and actually composing is an entirely different thing IMO, especially when it comes to counterpoint. My compositional style/goal is counterpoint, so I would be very much interested in your inputs. I am currently looking at a bunch of counterpoint books, but there's one "Tonal Counterpoint for the 21st Century Mucisian" by Teresa Davidian that is on the lines of what I'm talking about.


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## paulc

Sekhar said:


> What are you guys reading on counterpoint for today's compositions (i.e., not say eighteenth century style)? More importantly, has any of you composed a modern sounding contrapunctal piece?


I don't think Counterpoint is a feature specific to one style or era of music.  The independence of several combined voices is the aim. So, learning 18th or 21st century counterpoint is one and the same IMO, except for harmonic differences.


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## arnerich

Sekhar said:


> What are you guys reading on counterpoint for today's compositions (i.e., not say eighteenth century style)? More importantly, has any of you composed a modern sounding contrapunctal piece? Because reading up is one thing and actually composing is an entirely different thing IMO, especially when it comes to counterpoint. My compositional style/goal is counterpoint, so I would be very much interested in your inputs. I am currently looking at a bunch of counterpoint books, but there's one "Tonal Counterpoint for the 21st Century Mucisian" by Teresa Davidian that is on the lines of what I'm talking about.


Here's my most complicated contrapuntal piece of music.






But my most "modern" fugue is a fugue in the 3rd mode of limited transposition. I had a recording of it at one time but now I can't find it! I'll need to rerecord it.


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## Phil loves classical

was just reading on dissonant counterpoint where minor seconds and major sevenths are the most “perfect”. It now makes a lot of Bartok’s technique clear to me now. I was using a bit of it as well.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit

arnerich said:


> Here's my most complicated contrapuntal piece of music.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But my most "modern" fugue is a fugue in the 3rd mode of limited transposition. I had a recording of it at one time but now I can't find it! I'll need to rerecord it.


wow, what an impressive piece, as well as the playing


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## Phil loves classical

I’m working on a more formal and traditionally structured piece, a sonata. It is vaguely based on Mozart’s forms, but I wouldn’t call it neo-Classical. Halfway through the first movement. I thought I would never want to write something more expansive in form, but the organizing principle to start out with some more mildly mannered music, with increasing dissonance.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm working on a more formal and traditionally structured piece, a sonata. It is vaguely based on Mozart's forms, but I wouldn't call it neo-Classical. Halfway through the first movement. I thought I would never want to write something more expansive in form, but the organizing principle to start out with some more mildly mannered music, with increasing dissonance.


Happy to hear that!


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## Czech composer

> You should be even more sad since best composers of 20th/21st century don't have formal musical education. I guess that's why you're not amongst them.





> Hamburger, so you're saying that Zimmer, Yanni, Vangelis etc. have musical education.
> WRONG!


I don´t think that composers you mentioned are best composers of century. For example John Williams is definitely more successfull than Zimmer and Williams has a formal musical education.


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## nikola

Czech composer said:


> I don´t think that composers you mentioned are best composers of century. For example John Williams is definitely more successfull than Zimmer and Williams has a formal musical education.


Honestly, I'm not at all fan of Hans Zimmer. He is too safe, predictable and 'optimal' in my opinion. Though, he made some motifs and themes that were really great. 
John Williams may be better and he composed some brilliant and unforgettable themes, but overally, I can't stand his 'mickey mousing'. It can fit movies, but on soundtracks it's really annoying. 
On the other hand, Yanni and Vangelis are way better and talented to me than both Williams and Zimmer.


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