# Question: amount of pleasure to be had from different tiers of opera quality



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

This question would be best answered by people like Herkku (who has been absent), Superhorn (with his life-long love of opera), TxllxT (with his huge knowledge of opera on audio medium), and schigolch (with his extensive exposure to so-called obscure works) - but any takers are welcome - these four are of course not the only members with comprehensive exposure to opera, and even humbler members like me and others here may have some say on this, given less frequent but still solid explorations of the off-the-beaten-path landscape.

The question is:

Take the top tier of say, the 100 most recognized operas, with everybody's favorites like the best works by Mozart, Wagner, Verdi, Handel, R. Strauss, Rossini, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini, Berlioz, etc., etc. (omissions don't mean that I don't consider other composers; this short list is just to make a point, others are included in the etc part).

Then, take the next tier of the next 100... less well known works of the above, or composers who aren't in everybody's radars like Pergolesi, Lully, Smetana, Dvorak, and what have you.

Last, take the next tier of the 201-300... several modern and contemporary composers who inspire a "who???" at first but have composed worthy works, or the more obscure ones of the past like Landi, Martín y Soler, etc.

Can all of the above continue to deliver endless pleasure to the opera lover, or does the quality suffer an abrupt decline when we get away from the really recognized works (supposing that the immortal, perennial favorites are favorites for a reason)?

Why am I asking this question? Because sometimes I think that I try to explore the more obscure repertoire out of boredom but I never quite get the same thrills. At other times, I think the exact opposite (I'm ambivalent about this), I get to believe that it's just because I'm not always looking at the right places, because getting those thrills and being blown away by an obscure opera is not that rare an event.

So, schigolch and others, are you diversifying so much because you are sick and tired of the perennial favorites, or because you think that there is as much pleasure to be obtained from obscure works as there is for recognized, mainstream works?

Considering that 40,000 operas have been written, one would say that statistically speaking, chances are that the order of magnitude of quality is not that different when you consider the top 100 works as compared to the, say, 301-400th best works.

But music is not math, so, I don't know. That's why I want some input from you guys.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

The amount of pleasure I get from listening to Straszny Dwór - opera that nobody of you all has ever heard or even encountered in some way is thousand times bigger than amount of pleasure I get from listening to many famous and celebrated works of likes of Donizetti, Rossini or even Mozart, I could go on and on with list of operas you are all wet about and that are included on "our" top X operas list but that doesn't satisfy me as much. 

The half of secret is about obvious fact that fame doesn't always equal quality. Another half of the secret lies in developing a affection and intimacy with particular music. All those unknown composer I talk about all the time became somehow "mine" because I'm among very few who love and appreciate their music. When I listen to Marriage of Figaro I feel like adoring some beautiful, famous and popular woman, eye-catcher of thousand of other people. When I listen to Straszny Dwór I feel like I would enjoy a outdoor walk with no less beautiful but more modest girl which doesn't make the whole world sigh (though she would be able to do so) and is all mine, I feel blissfully comfortable with her.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> The amount of pleasure I get from listening to Straszny Dwór - opera that nobody of you all has ever heard or even encountered in some way is thousand times bigger than amount of pleasure I get from listening to many famous and celebrated works of likes of Donizetti, Rossini or even Mozart, I could go on and on with list of operas you are all wet about and that are included on "our" top X operas list but that doesn't satisfy me as much.
> 
> The half of secret is about obvious fact that fame doesn't always equal quality. Another half of the secret lies in developing a affection and intimacy with particular music. All those unknown composer I talk about all the time became somehow "mine" because I'm among very few who love and appreciate their music. When I listen to Marriage of Figaro I feel like adoring some beautiful, famous and popular woman, eye-catcher of thousand of other people. When I listen to Straszny Dwór I feel like I would enjoy a outdoor walk with no less beautiful but more modest girl which doesn't make the whole world sigh (though she would be able to do so) and is all mine, I feel blissfully comfortable with her.


Interesting take and analogy. I'd just disagree with the sarcastic "our" list part - it *is* our list, since we made it together and collectively, and even you in spite of your aversion for such lists contributed with some votes. The list didn't intend to be a seal of quality but rather a list of what we - the members - recommend, rightly or wrongly. Oh yes, I get very protective of that effort, since I sincerely believe it was a worthy pursuit.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Aramis said:


> The half of secret is about obvious fact that fame doesn't always equal quality.


Yep. A lot of terrific music fails to secure fame due to factors unrelated to quality. Including most of the good music written by women before very recent times. Music is not a meritocracy, and it would be short-sighted to discount social (and other extra-musical) factors.

I find the majority of very famous music to be deserving of fame, but just considering the sheer _volume_ of _non_-famous music, there's got to be some really good stuff there. (And there is.) Of course, to find it, one has to wade through a lot of stuff that's not famous because it's just not that good. But it's worth it when you discover a little-known gem. And like Aramis, I feel like I have a special relationship with the "obscure" music I love.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Compared to many people on here I am still an opera newbie & there are lots in 'our' Top 100 which I don't know, never mind the next tiers. 

There may well be an opera which everyone knows & loves which is like Aramis' 'Marriage of Figaro' but for me will be a Straszny Dwór.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

In my view, this is a journey, but a very personal journey. And as I've written in other message, there is no goal, but to enjoy the journey (of course,I'm talking about people like us, that just love opera, but are no teachers, or writing a book on the subject).

That means for some people, knowing 50 operas will do, for others could mean hear all the operas by Verdi or Donizetti, others will prefer to explore more... even to hear Moniuszko, that is not so unusual, for instance this is one favourite passage of mine:

*Straszny dwór - Fragment 1st act*

It's a choice, but is not better or worse. Just think on having to devote around 80,000 hours to hear 40,000 operas at least once... 

Having said that, for my personal taste there are no real differences in average between the best well known operas and the best no-so-well-known operas. But this is only my opinion, of course.

For instance, of those 40,000 operas a surprisingly big number are related to the legend of Orpheus. Of course, the Monteverdi's or Glück's are very often numbered in the top operas of all time, but are they 'better' than:

_Orfeo_ by Luigi Rossi, a marvelous piece from 17th century:






or _L'Orfeide_ by Malipiero (superb singing here from Magda Olivero):






or _The Mask of Orpheus_, by Birtwistle:

Parodos

First Poem of Reminiscence

Not to me, but I'm happy to recognize this could be totally different to other people. It's just a matter of taste.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

schigolch said:


> even to hear Moniuszko, that is not so unusual, for instance this is one favourite passage of mine:
> 
> *Straszny dwór - Fragment 1st act*


Ha, yes, I too love atmosphere of this fragment, a merry farewell between brothers in arms.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Aramis said:


> Ha, yes, I too love atmosphere of this fragment, a merry farewell between brothers in arms.


It's very beautiful. Good, I'll have to explore this one.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> It's very beautiful. Good, I'll have to explore this one.


Dobrze, dobrze, panie bracie, przewyborny ten wasz plan! If you're curious, the fragment schigolch posted comes from this recording (which I recommended before several times):


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

Well, recognised or not-recognised in general, I just follow my own recognitions, which may be for others perhaps far-out-into-the-rough but for me is just walking through high street  my high street). I happen to be fond of Prokofiev, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky and bit by bit all their works (operas + the rest) have grown and continue to grow on me. Mozart, Verdi & Wagner of course are splendid & heavenly & whatever praise one can load on them, but their works just tend to stay longer on my CD-shelves, longer than the Russians happen to do. Sometimes I get into a baroque mood and listen for days to Charpentier, Lully, Rameau & Handel. Then I 'progress' into a classical mood and listen only to Gluck. All of sudden I may turn to voices, famous and not yet so famous, young, old, female, male. To end these musings: I really don't know what you mean. Boredom??????


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Aramis said:


> The amount of pleasure I get from listening to Straszny Dwór - opera that nobody of you all has ever heard or even encountered in some way is thousand times bigger than amount of pleasure I get from listening to many famous and celebrated works of likes of Donizetti, Rossini or even Mozart, I could go on and on with list of operas you are all wet about and that are included on "our" top X operas list but that doesn't satisfy me as much.
> 
> The half of secret is about obvious fact that fame doesn't always equal quality. Another half of the secret lies in developing a affection and intimacy with particular music. All those unknown composer I talk about all the time became somehow "mine" because I'm among very few who love and appreciate their music. When I listen to Marriage of Figaro I feel like adoring some beautiful, famous and popular woman, eye-catcher of thousand of other people. When I listen to Straszny Dwór I feel like I would enjoy a outdoor walk with no less beautiful but more modest girl which doesn't make the whole world sigh (though she would be able to do so) and is all mine, I feel blissfully comfortable with her.


That's an interesting way of putting it. Certain composer(s) we seem to click particularly well with who are not normally considered amongst the big names who wrote celebrated pieces (this applies to other genres, not just opera).


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I have long been aware of the existence of this Moniuszko opera, and very much want to hear the EMI recording. My local library recently got the CPO recording of Moniuszko's best-known opera Halka from the Warsaw opera, and I enjoyed it, even though I wouldn't call it a masterpiece of the first order. 
Accoreding to the Halka recording booklet notes, Halka was performed at various European cities outside Poland a number of times in the 19th century especially Prague , but it pretty much remained favorite in Poland alone ever since. It might be nice to have the New York city opera do a production in English, if the troubled company survives, as we all fervently hope it will.


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