# Ethical Problems at Ring



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

So I'm halfway through the Ring. I am enjoying it, but my enjoyment is very hampered by the gentlemen next to me who is a very heavy breather (overweight fellow). He is very nice - we discussed Ring DVDs, etc. But I didn't really appreciate how unearned Wagner's "bombastic" reputation is prior to this - most of the Ring consists of very quiet, intimate dialogue and music. And this is mostly destroyed by this man's breathing in my ear. The more I try to ignore it, the more I notice it, that sort of thing.

I don't really have the heart to tell him about it. He's a nice guy, very well behaved otherwise and unlike somebody talking excessively or making unnecessary noise I don't really think "breathing" is enough grounds for a complaint (what do I say, please don't breathe? Please breathe through your mouth?).

Anyways I suffered Rheingold with him. I did the first act of Walkure, and then "seat jumped" for Act II (same price class of seat, didn't try to upgrade without paying or anything).

Big mistake, as I found myself next to a middle-aged woman bent on making as much noise as possible during Act II. Jingling bracelets on her arm, opening and closing her purse, checking her cell phone. She dropped her glasses on the floor, swore loudly, and then kept trying to find them (ground is very sloped so they obviously slid out of reach). She was clearly incurring the wrath of everyone around her, but she was oblivious to glares. As she was bent over in my lap I (politely) whispered in her ear that she was making a lot of noise. She did not take it well. Essentially yelled at me to the gasps of everyone around me. I sat quietly after that but was vindicated when the person behind her, beside her, and in front of her all "had a word" with her (one exclaiming, "you're destroying the greatest opera ever written!"). She eventually gave up the glasses search and shut up and I was able to enjoy the Brunnhilde/Siegmund scene onwards (the best part, anyways). At intermission, several of us complained to the ushers about her, but ushers are rather useless these days.

So I went back to my original seat afterwards and suffered the breathing for Act III.

Anyways I see 3 options for the rest of the cycle.

1. Point the gentlemen's distracting breathing out to him, to both of our embarrassment and I'm not sure if he would be able or willing to do anything about it.

2. Try my luck again with another seat jump for Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. 

3. Suck it up. Am I out of line and this sort of thing is to be expected at live performances?

Experienced goers, please advise.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I will say that the half an act of breathe-less, jingle-less opera was extremely enjoyable. But is that "deserved", the baseline "to be expected" at the opera? Or is that "wow you lucked out!"


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'd try seat jumping again.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I always go to concerts armed. That resolves all kinds of adjacent-seat problems.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Yes, carrying a handgun is helpful for working out those little miffs between the opera goers. ha ha

Truthfully, for the heavy breathing guy, I'd come up with some sort of polite, "concerned" way to express your problem... "I noticed that you were having breathing problems the other day. Are you fighting a cold or some congestion? Maybe some antihistamine might help?" or something. But you're right, you can't complain to the ushers about this.

As for complaining to ushers, I can only give one opera house as example because that's the only place I ever had problems, Houston Grand Opera. We had a very noisy couple once, doing the same sort of continual shuffling and talking as you describe, despite several "shhhh!", and at intermission, several around them, including my girlfriend and I, complained to the ushers, and the couple were "spoken to" by a manager.

The manager told us all who complained that it was a closed case, several independent complaints were proof of the upsetting couple and the couple was told to quiet down or go home. We all got angry stares but silence ruled henceforth.

When I first took my girlfriend to see an opera, I'd bought single-performance tickets so nobody around knew us (later I got season tickets so other patrons would say hello and such), and we got there early since I use a cane. As we settled in our seats (way before the opera started), I said loudly to my girlfriend "Honey, I got the popcorn and the peanuts. Do you have the beer?" and she picked up on the cue immediately, "I got a six pack in my purse!" Which got us some stares, briefly. First intermission, some of those around us said that they were about 90% sure I was joking but that 10% still left them guessing, and we all had a laugh about it, particularly when I said "Hey, we've got some peanuts left but we drank all the beer. Want some?"


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Couchie said:


> 2. Try my luck again with another seat jump for Siegfried and Gotterdammerung.


maybe the woman had such a bad time she won't be returning! or keep an eye out to see if there are any other free seats in your region. There's no reason to suffer if you've got alternatives.


----------



## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Tough call. Some folks say audible breathing doesn't bother them, but it drives me batty. Just as bad are those O2 cylinders that emit an audible metallic click with each puff of oxygen. But yeah, you can hardly ask them to stop breathing. And yes, it’s compounded by the mental distraction of strategizing and rationalizing rather than enjoying the performance. I get agitated, then I get agitated about being agitated!

Plan A for me is to buckle down and focus and get lost in the music. That seems to be easier for me as I get older and amass more experience. Seems like those 'once in a lifetime' experiences actually come along every few years and I'm a little more willing (to a point) to put up with occasionally losing the bad-audience-neighbor lottery for the sake of peace of mind and salvaging an enjoyable experience.

Plan B is to relocate as opportunity and availability allow, but as you found out, has its own risks: plopping into a worse situation or getting "outed". I have no problem with relocating in extreme cases and getting on with the evening. And I'll confess I'm not averse to the occasional 'upgrade' as long as its done unobtrusively and not a habitual practice.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

deggial's right - see if SHE seatjumps. Normally the people around you at the opera are very quiet, has been my experience. She can't have enjoyed her experience much.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

3.) Jump seats again; its a crap shoot, but I would think there are enough attending who are there to really hear it, i.e. devoted listeners, and there are more of them, it is to be hoped, than the other sort. I'm not predicting odds, though!

I don't really at all like being pulled so far out of myself that it is left up to me to "correct" an audience member, but it has happened, though utterly justified (at least by the reactions of about fifty people in the near vicinity of the first balcony) I found myself afterwards feel the pain of the blood rushing to my face out of embarrassment 

A "lady" - seated next to her husband, had been chattering _nonstop_ through an entire thirty-some minute work, the first on the program. I had specifically gone to hear the second piece on that program, a concert presentation of _Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle._ Come intermission, we're all seated, the lights go down, and the very low and quiet opening of the piece starts -- accompanied by Mrs. StreamOfChatteringMonkey. The poor thing was about fourteen seats over and five rows behind me (yes, I had heard her plainly over that distance throughout the first and rather loud orchestral piece of thirty minutes.)

I turned to her, and in my best fully supported voice (which I'm sure the maestro probably heard on the podium) said, 
"You're not going to talk all the way through this one, too, are you?" 
There was the predictable reaction of a whole body jump-shrug along with a predictable verbal grunt from her, best spelled as "Harumph!" -- and then, blessedly, silence other than the music. My discomfort of embarrassment faded in a few seconds... the Bartok runs over a half an hour. The embarrassment and the pain were worth it.

Another time, another truly offending party nearer me, while pointing to the program in my hand I leaned over and whispered in the particular tone of clenched teeth irritation, "Where are you on this program?" That was equally effective.

It takes quite a lot for some to push outside their own envelope to make such statements and gestures, but some people will just go on and on, wrongly, and far too many around them are too passive, and / or too polite (same thing) and just let it go by.

Past the normal (your poor first neighbor, overweight, has labored breathing, I don't think it the time or place to mention it, but instead, move  I do think an audience member has every right, no matter how uncomfortable, to call out a truly irritating fellow audience member... especially if you are fairly certain you are not the only one being bothered. After all, you are there to hear the performers perform the music, not the more out of line audience members.

Let's hope you hear the remaining parts of that opera in relative audience peace....


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Have you ever lived in an apartment where noises from above can drive you crazy? Often it's made worse because you don't know who's making the noise. But when you get to know your neighbour, and particularly if you like them, the noise is not anywhere near as annoying.

... so if you can't move, I'd advise that you strike up a conversation with the guy so it is no longer the noise of a stranger that you are hearing.


----------



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

PetrB said:


> 3.) Jump seats again; its a crap shoot, but I would think there are enough attending who are there to really hear it, i.e. devoted listeners, and there are more of them, it is to be hoped, than the other sort. I'm not predicting odds, though!
> 
> I don't really at all like being pulled so far out of myself that it is left up to me to "correct" an audience member, but it has happened, though utterly justified (at least by the reactions of about fifty people in the near vicinity of the first balcony) I found myself afterwards feel the pain of the blood rushing to my face out of embarrassment
> 
> ...


great stories... good job!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

We must remember that this audience noise is all part of the grand tradition. When listening to an opera in the time of Handel the audience would not have expected to pay attention all the way through it. They would just listen to the bits they like and then go on eating, talking all playing cards through the rest of it. Then somehow people like Wagner came along who thought that operas were actually worth listening to all the way through.
Incidentally if you go to the cinema you will notice the same problem of cell phones, people talking, eating hamburgers, etc. I always dead it when people come bearing huge cartons of popcorn and sit near me. How on earth anyone could have been demented enough to allow popcorn to be sold on what is a partially audio experience is quite beyond me. Maybe they should supply tall hats as well so it also ruins the visual experience!


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> We must remember that this audience noise is all part of the grand tradition.


It was Wagner who changed the conventions and the tradition, so please, almost everyone knows the present set of conventions.

At the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, the seats are wooden, without cushions (all toward that desired acoustic.) Stravinsky reported that he once shifted in his seat, the seat creaked, and dozens of people about him gave him withering looks as if he had just farted loudly in church during a high holy day service 

The times have changed. Some people no longer have any sense they are attending a live performance, where if nothing else, too much beyond a minimum disrupts not only fellow audience members, but the performers, _who are working for the audience and require peak concentration on the job at hand._

I repeat to those who inordinately disrupt during live performance, "Where are _you_ on this program?"


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

PetrB said:


> It was Wagner who changed the conventions and the tradition, so please, almost everyone knows the present set of conventions.
> 
> At the Bayreuth Festspielhaus, the seats are wooden, without cushions (all toward that desired acoustic.) Stravinsky reported that he once shifted in his seat, the seat creaked, and dozens of people about him gave him withering looks as if he had just farted loudly in church during a high holy day service
> 
> ...


What we are now suffering from is that people are used to watching TV, during which they can pass comments, text, eat, drink, etc. They then sometimes carry these habits into live performances. Just look at kids in the cinema. I am annoyed when a mobile phone rings in the middle of a movie and even more annoyed when the person answers it and then carries on a conversation!


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> What we are now suffering from is that people are used to watching TV, during which they can pass comments, text, eat, drink, etc. They then sometimes carry these habits into live performances. Just look at kids in the cinema. I am annoyed when a mobile phone rings in the middle of a movie and even more annoyed when the person answers it and then carries on a conversation!


The movies were prior television, and the combo of both, non-live entertainments, later adding to the fray the severely amplified performances (pop, musical theater) where it is so amped up it does not really matter if you talk full volume all the way through it... all having made a collective set of experiences for several generations, and it ain't pretty.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> too much beyond a minimum disrupts not only fellow audience members, but the performers, _who are working for the audience and require peak concentration on the job at hand._


a couple of months ago, at La donna del lago, during a quiet duet between Florez and DiDonato, while she was singing her bit with no orchestra backing, a mobile went off LOUDLY. There was no way she and everybody else in the house didn't hear it. To her credit, she didn't miss a bit, but the ringing went on for what felt like 20-30 secs.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deggial said:


> a couple of months ago, at La donna del lago, during a quiet duet between Florez and DiDonato, while she was singing her bit with no orchestra backing, a mobile went off LOUDLY. There was no way she and everybody else in the house didn't hear it. To her credit, she didn't miss a bit, but the ringing went on for what felt like 20-30 secs.


I believe a certain item from Alfred Brendels final farewell concert was not put onto the CD of the event because a mobile phone went off during his performance.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I remember see Tristan und Isolde at Covent Garden and the selfless chap next to me was trying so hard to avoid making a clearly needful cough that I thought he might do himself a harm. I really felt for him. Sometimes it's better just to get the cough over with. And if that doesn't work... you have to take the walk of shame.

And then there is this. That would definite p... me off.


----------



## annie (Jul 31, 2011)

I always purchase a box for my sniper. Whenever someone coughs or makes any kind of disrespectful(we live in 21th century)noise I point my laser pen to him/her, he snipes...I'm sure I'll have a noise free audience very soon, thanks to this spree.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ please cull the noise makers in the better seats first so we can upgrade after the intermission


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

Well, of course, Alexander, latecomers are simply not admitted after the music begins. At least that's how it is in Houston and most other houses. They're required to wait till next intermission.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

The "Where are you in this program?" is a terrific stopper! I'll remember that.

Much as impolite as it is, when someone at the opera is chatting loudly, I've actually heard "Shut the hell up!" which causes laughter around and total shame for the chatterer.

And now that the subject is broached, I have to admit, if I'm attending an opera which I sang in, or there's an aria that I know, I've found myself mouthing the lyrics and have to stop myself and stay quiet. It's something that I've caught myself doing a few times. Reminds me the last time I saw Magic Flute at Houston Grand Opera, there were 3 teens as the "magic boys" and the lead singer of the three was this very cute teenage girl. And during a little song by Pamina, I saw the teen girl, standing in her "flying magic boat", watching and miming the words as they were being sung. I'm certain the stage manager had a bit of a talk with her afterward.

What's the old joke about Bayreuth, that every few moments there's this huge rattle from the audience as everyone turns the same page at the same time on the libretto in their laps?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There was a time when the morons at the local council decided that instead of putting on matinees for schools where children could go with teachers and be properly supervised, they would give kids free tickets for the regular performance. Which meant you had all these unsupervised kids in the theatre, not generally interested in the play and talking and generally making a nuisance for those who had paid.
It culminated half way through Macbeth when there was so much noise from the audience that Macbesth himself strode to the front of the stage and yelled, 'Shut up!'


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> There was a time when the morons at the local council decided that instead of putting on matinees for schools where children could go with teachers and be properly supervised, they would give kids free tickets for the regular performance. Which meant you had all these unsupervised kids in the theatre, not generally interested in the play and talking and generally making a nuisance for those who had paid.
> It culminated half way through Macbeth when there was so much noise from the audience that Macbesth himself strode to the front of the stage and yelled, 'Shut up!'


Love it!

Paid to entertain or other, at some point when a body has had enough of being walked all over, well, a body's gotta do what a body's got to do.


----------



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

^^^Quite


----------



## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Buy out all the seats in the orchestra section and sit there all by yourself.


----------



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I think you've gotten extremely unlucky. I've never had any experiences like that. Keep seat jumping. There are three empty seats next to each other on the right side of the second row of center orchestra. They were there for Walküre and Siegfried, and show up as unsold still for Götterdämmerung tomorrow.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

macgeek2005 said:


> I think you've gotten extremely unlucky. I've never had any experiences like that. Keep seat jumping. There are three empty seats next to each other on the right side of the second row of center orchestra. They were there for Walküre and Siegfried, and show up as unsold still for Götterdämmerung tomorrow.


Aren't those 3 seats reserved for the Rheinmaidens?


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

annie said:


> I always purchase a box for my sniper. Whenever someone coughs or makes any kind of disrespectful(we live in 21th century)noise I point my laser pen to him/her, he snipes...I'm sure I'll have a noise free audience very soon, thanks to this spree.


Since I have my concealed carry permit, I pack a nice .45 with laser sight under my jacket. Usually just pointing it at a noisy patron is enough, that red dot on their chest gets attention and no noise at all. Of course the safety is on, but they can't see that, so they really don't know they were never in danger.

And after all, being a Texan, we at the Houston Grand Opera usually aid in celebrating and cheering the singers during curtain calls by shooting our guns into the ceiling, like that guy on The Simpsons. Plays hell wiith the overhead lighting tracks but there are some sacrifices that need to be made...


----------



## annie (Jul 31, 2011)

katdad said:


> Since I have my concealed carry permit, I pack a nice .45 with laser sight under my jacket. Usually just pointing it at a noisy patron is enough, that red dot on their chest gets attention and no noise at all. Of course the safety is on, but they can't see that, so they really don't know they were never in danger.


This is plain selfish. I don't see a difference between you and the noisemakers. You want them to be respectful when you are there...I care about the greater good, the whole good-music-appreciating population. In your case they'll cough, play with their wrist instruments and talk next time...maybe I'm too sensitive but I cannot let it happen to anyone else when I and my sniper are not there, too. Perhaps it's the way I was raised, don't know...


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Couchie said:


> most of the Ring consists of very quiet, intimate dialogue and music


hmm i think its not actually... blame the conductor and voiceless singers he was trying to present up by hushing down the orchestra.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

annie said:


> This is plain selfish. I don't see a difference between you and the noisemakers. You want them to be respectful when you are there...I care about the greater good, the whole good-music-appreciating population. In your case they'll cough, play with their wrist instruments and talk next time...maybe I'm too sensitive but I cannot let it happen to anyone else when I and my sniper are not there, too. Perhaps it's the way I was raised, don't know...


I must admit that you bring some good points to the sniper side of the issue. I'll give it some thought.


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

today orchestras play too quietly, and that is a problem: the musicians and singers suck these days.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

sharik said:


> today orchestras play too quietly, and that is a problem: the musicians and singers suck these days.


In my experience the orchestras plays too loud.

But back on topic, this thread has given me some ideas for the future! :tiphat:


----------



## annie (Jul 31, 2011)

sospiro said:


> this thread has given me some ideas for the future! :tiphat:


You are welcome...25 characters


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Happy to say "seat jumping" was far more successful for Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. Took an aisle seat next to an elderly woman who was not only a pleasure to talk to but dead-silent during the performance as well. Loved both performances and they more than made up for the earlier fiasco. 

The original, unpleasant, woman did come back for both Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. I believe she is an authentic sadomasochist - she was groaning and sighing towards the end of Act 2 of Walkure - which is Wagner at his rather more "economical". I can only imagine the fuss she was making for the never-ending Siegfried/Brunnhilde duet in Siegfried or the Prologue+Act I stretch of Gotterdammerung.


----------



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

sharik said:


> today orchestras play too quietly, and that is a problem: the musicians and singers suck these days.


Stephanie Blythe, who more or less stole the stage for her Fricka/Waltraute scenes can certainly blow with the best of them. I was unimpressed with Alwyn Mellor's Brunnhilde and after she "woke up sick" for Siegfried I actually preferred her alternate, Lori Phillips. Not the most powerful voice, but she certainly looks the part (by Brunnhilde standards) and gave a convincing performance.


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

sharik said:


> today orchestras play too quietly, and that is a problem: the musicians and singers suck these days.


That's because they all moved to Europe, the US, Canada, Australia and other places where they can make some real money! (just joking)


----------



## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

katdad said:


> That's because they all moved to Europe, the US, Canada


you mean they moved from Canada to Canada ?


----------



## katdad (Jan 1, 2009)

sharik said:


> you mean they moved from Canada to Canada ?


Er, your location says Moscow.


----------

