# Davidsbündlertänze and Kreisleriana



## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Two or my favorite works by the great Robert Schumann. Which of these two works do you prefer? Davidsbündlertänze is comparably underplayed and underrated IMO. I find it just as extraordinary as any other of Schumann’s major works. Personally I believe it belongs to the absolutely greatest works ever written for the piano. Which of the pieces do you find to be musically more difficult to grasp? Because I am trying to understand why Davidsbündlertänze is less popular... Is the reason to the historical neglect of Davidsbündlertänze in comparison to Kreisleriana because of tradition or because it contains some problematic pianistic difficulties compared to Kreisleriana?


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Beebert said:


> Two or my favorite works by the great Robert Schumann. Which of these two works do you prefer?


This is a topic that I have given much thought, since I have to choose between Kreisleriana, Davidsbündlertänze, and Humoreske for my junior recital. I'm going with Kreisleriana-but just by a hair, so I guess there's your answer.



Beebert said:


> Davidsbündlertänze is comparably underplayed and underrated IMO. I find it just as extraordinary as any other of Schumann's major works.


As far as a quality-to-appreciation ratio, it's possibly the most underplayed work in existence! No other work plumbs such depths with such little concert exposure. Even the notoriously difficult-to-grasp Diabelli Variations receives far more attention.



Beebert said:


> Personally I believe it belongs to the absolutely greatest works ever written for the piano.


Agreed.



Beebert said:


> Which of the pieces do you find to be musically more difficult to grasp?


I became a fan of Schumann through the Fantasy, Carnaval, and Symphonic Etudes. I find that very many few people become fans of Schumann through the Kreisleriana or Davidsbündlertänze, even though they are widely regarded as his two greatest works.

For a very long time, I thought Kreisleriana was a dreadfully boring work. Ditto with the Op.6-both works took many attempts at concentrated listening to finally click. And now I'm playing Kreisleriana for my junior recital, so go figure.



Beebert said:


> Because I am trying to understand why Davidsbündlertänze is less popular... Is the reason to the historical neglect of Davidsbündlertänze in comparison to Kreisleriana because of tradition or because it contains some problematic pianistic difficulties compared to Kreisleriana?


Davidsbündlertänze, while still requiring virtuoso technique, is somewhat physically easier than many of the large-scale Schumann works. It doesn't contain the terrifying jumps in the Fantasy and Carnaval, nor does it have the finger-breaking agitato sections in Kreisleriana. However, it is the hardest one of them all to interpret and play convincingly as an organic whole.

I don't know if Davidsbündlertänze was historically ignored by pianists, at least not more than Kreisleriana. Certainly Clara Schumann championed both works until her death. It was also known to feature heavily in the repertoire of the Nikolai Rubinstein, the younger brother of Anton Rubinstein and one of the star virtuosos of the 19th century.

Here is an account of Tchaikovsky hearing N. Rubinstein perform the Op.6:



> ...The cycle expresses the creative spirit of Schumann himself-stormy, impetuous, passionate, and resolute in the pieces marked with the letter "F" (i.e. those which depict Florestan), and languorous and melancholically tender in those marked with the letter "E" (i.e. the ones which feature the dreamy Eusebius)....Subsequently, Florestan and Eusebius seem to merge in a single feeling of love and happiness, although it is Eusebius who gets to have the last word, and this wonderful fantasy, so full of capricious swings of true genius, ends with a section in which it is difficult to say what one should be more astonished by-its melodic charm or its incredible richness in wondrous harmonic combinations?


It is well known that Schumann was Tchaikovsky's favorite composer for the piano and certainly the Davidsbündlertänze can be seen as one of Tchaikovsky's favorite works as he rarely ever delivered such elaborate praise towards other composers....save for the works of Mozart and Schumann.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

chu42 said:


> This is a topic that I have given much thought, since I have to choose between Kreisleriana, Davidsbündlertänze, and Humoreske for my junior recital. I'm going with Kreisleriana-but just by a hair, so I guess there's your answer.
> 
> As far as a quality-to-appreciation ratio, it's possibly the most underplayed work in existence! No other work plumbs such depths with such little concert exposure. Even the notoriously difficult-to-grasp Diabelli Variations receives far more attention.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your great and very informed answer. I study the piano at conservatory, and I am just about to finish Davidsbündlertänze now. I have played Kreisleriana before, and I personally found Davidsbündlertänze to be an even greater challenge, containing a very varied amount of both musical and technical challenges. Schumann is just a universe of his own... Not possible to compare to anyone else. I find that the depths of his music are endless and no other music can make you feel so absorbed and obsessed somehow... It is truly unique. Even Beethoven's piano music has become less important to me when I discovered Schumann. Which I did through Davidsbündlertänze and the Fantasied actually...


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Beebert said:


> I appreciate your great and very informed answer. I study the piano at conservatory, and I am just about to finish Davidsbündlertänze now. I have played Kreisleriana before, and I personally found Davidsbündlertänze to be an even greater challenge, containing a very varied amount of both musical and technical challenges. Schumann is just a universe of his own... Not possible to compare to anyone else. I find that the depths of his music are endless and no other music can make you feel so absorbed and obsessed somehow... It is truly unique. Even Beethoven's piano music has become less important to me when I discovered Schumann. Which I did through Davidsbündlertänze and the Fantasied actually...


With Schumann, every work that "clicks" is greater than the last. The Symphonic Etudes and Fantasie used to be the height of pianism for me, and then I started to understand Carnaval and it raised the bar even higher. Again my perception was changed by Humoreske and the Op.14 Sonata, but now Kreisleriana and Davidsbundlertanze seem to be at the very top.

Any single one of these works contains-like you said-entire worlds of harmonic richness and musical depth.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Kreisleriana for me, by a hair.

But I'll take _Kinderszenen_ over either.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I want to ask you pianists a question. Have you read ETA Hoffmann? Does it help make sense of the music? 

DBT has done pretty well on record, - there’s an early recording of DBT by Cortot for example, and Moiseiwitch left a recording too, not to mention Gieseking and Arrau and Pollini and Charles Rosen and Cziffra and Geza Anda and Maria Tipo and Arrau and Kempff and . . . .

In DBT, some pianists, maybe most, have seen an element of irrationality, of madness in fact - partly because of Schumann’s own mental health problems. Cortot’s first recording is very striking in this respect, there are sometimes these unsettling unexpected rumbles of bass notes which seem to go strangely deep, to the dark side. Not all pianists have played it like this of course - Kempff for example is refreshingly sane.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> I want to ask you pianists a question. Have you read ETA Hoffmann? Does it help make sense of the music?
> 
> DBT has done pretty well on record, - there's an early recording of DBT by Cortot for example, and Moiseiwitch left a recording too, not to mention Gieseking and Arrau and Pollini and Charles Rosen and Cziffra and Geza Anda and Maria Tipo and . . . .
> 
> In DBT, some pianists, maybe most, have seen an element of irrationality, of madness in fact - partly because of Schumann's own mental health problems. Cortot is very striking in this respect, there are sometimes these unsettling unexpected rumbles of bass notes which seem to to strangely deep, to the dark side. Not all pianists have played it like this of course - Kempff for example is refreshing.


I haven't read ETA Hoffmann. Shame on me. But I think other things can help to make sense of the music... Literature, philosophy and religion in general... But also, most of all, that which you have within.

Yes that is true, but no recording from Richter, Argerich, Horowitz, etc. Hehe


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

chu42 said:


> With Schumann, every work that "clicks" is greater than the last. The Symphonic Etudes and Fantasie used to be the height of pianism for me, and then I started to understand Carnaval and it raised the bar even higher. Again my perception was changed by Humoreske and the Op.14 Sonata, but now Kreisleriana and Davidsbundlertanze seem to be at the very top.
> 
> Any single one of these works contains-like you said-entire worlds of harmonic richness and musical depth.


I need to revisit Kreisleriana...


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> Kreisleriana for me, by a hair.
> 
> But I'll take _Kinderszenen_ over either.


Another sublime masterpiece. I respect you view and can absolutely understand it.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> I want to ask you pianists a question. Have you read ETA Hoffmann? Does it help make sense of the music?


No, apart from the Nutcracker stories. I might pick up more works by him in the future but it seems like his popularity was generally limited to Europe, unlike other Europeans like Hugo or Gogol.



Mandryka said:


> DBT has done pretty well on record, - there's an early recording of DBT by Cortot for example, and Moiseiwitch left a recording too, not to mention Gieseking and Arrau and Pollini and Charles Rosen and Cziffra and Geza Anda and Maria Tipo and Arrau and Kempff and . . . .


Yes, it was popular in the Golden Age and throughout the 20th century, but there seem to be a lack of recordings in modern times and I hardly see it in competition.

If only Richter recorded DBT or Kreisleriana! One listens to his Op.99 and cannot help but think of what heights he could've reached with the former works.



Mandryka said:


> In DBT, some pianists, maybe most, have seen an element of irrationality, of madness in fact - partly because of Schumann's own mental health problems. Cortot's first recording is very striking in this respect, there are sometimes these unsettling unexpected rumbles of bass notes which seem to go strangely deep, to the dark side. Not all pianists have played it like this of course - Kempff for example is refreshingly sane.


Interesting ideas, but I think the "madness" idea is much more present in Kreisleriana, especially the final two movements.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Gieseking playing Davidsbündlertanze was probably what made me a Schumann convert. I agree that it is a towering masterpiece, capturing perhaps the entire spectrum and essence of Romanticism within the confines of one instrument in a way only rivaled by Liszt’s B Minor Sonata and Schumann’s own Fantasie. However, I’ve heard Kreisleriana several times and come away each time thinking that it’s one of his more lackluster works. I find it extremely mysterious and difficult to grasp. I’m sure some day I will find the recording for me, but right now I’d take virtually any other of his piano works over it.


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## Beebert (Jan 3, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Gieseking playing Davidsbündlertanze was probably what made me a Schumann convert. I agree that it is a towering masterpiece, capturing perhaps the entire spectrum and essence of Romanticism within the confines of one instrument in a way only rivaled by Liszt's B Minor Sonata and Schumann's own Fantasie. However, I've heard Kreisleriana several times and come away each time thinking that it's one of his more lackluster works. I find it extremely mysterious and difficult to grasp. I'm sure some day I will find the recording for me, but right now I'd take virtually any other of his piano works over it.


Glad you mentioned Gieseking's recording. Then we are two who were converted to Schumann by that recording.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> However, I've heard Kreisleriana several times and come away each time thinking that it's one of his more lackluster works. I find it extremely mysterious and difficult to grasp. I'm sure some day I will find the recording for me, but right now I'd take virtually any other of his piano works over it.


This was how I felt for a very long time. Which recordings have you listened to so far? There are many mediocre ones out there.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

chu42 said:


> This was how I felt for a very long time. Which recordings have you listened to so far? There are many mediocre ones out there.


I can't remember them all, but the most recent one I heard was from Lupu, a pianist I normally love. At the time I figured that if he couldn't convert me on the work, nobody could, but hearing the high praise in this thread has made me want to try it again. What's your favorite?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

_Kreisleriana_ is one of Schumann's greatest works. He wrote it in a few days. It speaks more about human emotions in a Romantic way than it does with _Davidsbündlertänze_ because Clara was featured in it as evidenced by Schumann's letter:

_I'm overflowing with music and beautiful melodies now - imagine, since my last letter I've finished another whole notebook of new pieces. I intend to call it Kreisleriana. You and one of your ideas play the main role in it, and I want to dedicate it to you - yes, to you and nobody else - and then you will smile so sweetly when you discover yourself in it._


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I can't remember them all, but the most recent one I heard was from Lupu, a pianist I normally love. At the time I figured that if he couldn't convert me on the work, nobody could, but hearing the high praise in this thread has made me want to try it again. What's your favorite?


Lupu gets some of it right, some of it wrong (in my opinion of course).

The golden standard of the work has always been Horowitz's 1969 recording, which many have professed to "convert" them to being Kreisleriana fans. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgJbiMHoSx2zhFQwviOiQr0G1SFfGxn8C

A much more cerebral/subtle performance is Klára Würtz's: 




I also enjoy performances by Michael Korstick and Volker Banfield,

You can also try Cortot, Argerich, and Economou for some very different takes.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

chu42 said:


> Lupu gets some of it right, some of it wrong (in my opinion of course).
> 
> The golden standard of the work has always been Horowitz's 1969 recording, which many have professed to "convert" them to being Kreisleriana fans. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgJbiMHoSx2zhFQwviOiQr0G1SFfGxn8C
> 
> ...


Thanks; in fact I just sampled some of Argerich's recording and thought that her mercurial approach was very suited to the music. Her "go for broke" style doesn't always work but it can give her interpretations a wonderful sense of Romantic fantasy. I'll have to try the others you mentioned, particularly Cortot, though I'm not a Horowitz fan.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I love Kreisleriana and rate it very highly. But DBT is something very dear to me. _It speaks more about human emotions in a Romantic way than it does with Kreisleriana_. 

I share OP`s curiosity on its relative obscurity but even though it outwardly looks easier to like than Kreisleriana, I think it is just as difficult to "grasp" as Kreisleriana. So in a way it is normal that it does not get the same amount of love as Kinderszenen or Carnaval.

I partially resent Mandryka`s comment on Kempff`s sanity but I must admit that with him DBT feels like a unified set the most. However, particularly his live video recording from Besançon Festival (1963) is as adventurous and imaginative as it gets. Perhaps not in the usual "crazy, drug-addict French pianist" way but in a personal, sincere, child-like way.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

chu42 said:


> As far as a quality-to-appreciation ratio, [Davidsbündlertänze is] possibly the most underplayed work in existence! No other work plumbs such depths with such little concert exposure. Even the notoriously difficult-to-grasp Diabelli Variations receives far more attention.


Agreed! There's something subtle about the way the pieces' thematic material relate to each other - I'm not sure how he does it, but there are ideas developed throughout.

I like how linear and active Schumann's basslines are, maybe more than any other composer. It feels as if one were flying. The often irregular rhythm, offbeat accents, and surprising harmonies combined with the active bassline can feel shocking and even hilarious.

The initial dissonance in the second piece with the D long held before resolving to C# - that sound is worth the price of admission alone! Love how it comes back at the end of the second to last piece.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

This is my favorite performance of _Kreisleriana _:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Yes, it was popular in the Golden Age and throughout the 20th century, but there seem to be a lack of recordings in modern times and I hardly see it in competition.
> 
> .


There have been some interesting recent ones: Maurizio Baglini, Olivier Chauzu, Angela Hewitt, Benjamin Frith, and though not for me I think Anton Kuerti is distinctive.

Although neither Richter, nor Sofronitsky recorded it, there is a really major recording from a Russian, one of the most interesting of the lot: Anatol Ugorski.

By the way, have you heard Pletnev's Kreisleriana?


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> There have been some interesting recent ones: Maurizio Baglini, Olivier Chauzu, Angela Hewitt, Benjamin Frith, and though not for me I think Anton Kuerti is distinctive.
> 
> Although neither Richter, nor Sofronitsky recorded it, there is a really major recording from a Russian, one of the most interesting of the lot: Anatol Ugorski.


I'll have to listen to these. I've heard Schiff, Pollini, Demus, Kempff, Laloum, Cortot, and Berezovsky. I'm in the middle of Lupu right now.



Mandryka said:


> By the way, have you heard Pletnev's Kreisleriana?


Yes. I am very picky with Kreisleriana and I thought I would love Pletnev's but halfway through it kinda let me down; it only takes a tiny difference in conception for the performance to feel "off" for me. Same thing happened with Lupu.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

chu42 said:


> Yes. I am very picky with Kreisleriana and I thought I would love Pletnev's but halfway through it kinda let me down; it only takes a tiny difference in conception for the performance to feel "off" for me. Same thing happened with Lupu.


Yes I agree about Pletnev, I don't know Lupu. From memory one excellent one Horowitz Carnegie Hall November 1968 - he's very tense and trippy. Did Horowitz do coke? I also have vaguely positive memories of a video recording from Cherkassky.

Someone who was a real Kreisleriana addict said to me that the best performance ever was Horowitz December 1 1968 at Academy of Music - I haven't heard it but I see it's here, so I will try to

https://www.prestomusic.com/classic...academy-of-music-philadelphia-december-1-1968

Listening as I type this to Burkhard Schliessman.

(And abandoned the Schliessman and listening now to the Horowitz December 1968. There are a lot of Horowitz Kreislerianas on record, they all sound interesting, it would be a labour love to compare and contrast them all - not for me!)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enjoying this one very much this afternoon









Though I think it's almost impossible that you won't feel at least



chu42 said:


> a tiny difference in conception.


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## chu42 (Aug 14, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Yes I agree about Pletnev, I don't know Lupu. From memory one excellent one Horowitz Carnegie Hall November 1968 - he's very tense and trippy. Did Horowitz do coke?


I wouldn't be surprised. But to my knowledge his only drug addictions were anti-depressents in the 1980s.


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Thanks; in fact I just sampled some of Argerich's recording and thought that her mercurial approach was very suited to the music. Her "go for broke" style doesn't always work but it can give her interpretations a wonderful sense of Romantic fantasy. I'll have to try the others you mentioned, particularly Cortot, though I'm not a Horowitz fan.


was going to recommend you try the Argerich recording - my first exposure to Schumann was her LP containing Kinderszenen and Kreisleriana, he's now my favorite composer.

I also love this performance:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Listening as I type this to Burkhard Schliessman.
> 
> (And abandoned the Schliessman and listening now to the Horowitz December 1968. There are a lot of Horowitz Kreislerianas on record, they all sound interesting, it would be a labour love to compare and contrast them all - not for me!)


I love Burkhard's Kreisleriana; reminds me of Walter Gieseking.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I love Burkhard's Kreisleriana; reminds me of Walter Gieseking.


When this thread started I listened to a whole bunch of Kreislerianas, and I learned something. The music sounds wonderful on an old piano. The percussive timbres, and the rich partials - they can transform Kreisleriana. The one I ended up becoming completely addicted to was by a very obscure pianist, and may well be (typically) very rare now - his name is Pierre Bouyer. If you ever get a chance to hear his recordings, take it.

On the strength of his Schumann I took a punt on Bouyer's Beethoven - not a composer I like but you never know. And in fact, I thought he did for the Waldstein what he'd done for Kreisleriana - just reveal new things about how the music can sound, new poetry in the music.

These composers wrote for instruments. Their music is physical sound, not some abstract thing - I think.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

mossyembankment said:


> I also love this performance:


I can't watch this. He should do either of the following:
1. Get a haircut and clean-shaven
2. Quit doing his "theatrics"


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## mossyembankment (Jul 28, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I can't watch this. He should do either of the following:
> 1. Get a haircut and clean-shaven
> 2. Quit doing his "theatrics"


not into "madman chic"?


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## cheregi (Jul 16, 2020)

I'm all for stylistic innovation, but purely from an aural-enjoyment point of view I would really be thrilled if Schumann was more often performed like this (that's Clara's student Fanny Davies playing DBT). It's just gorgeous.



Mandryka said:


> When this thread started I listened to a whole bunch of Kreislerianas, and I learned something. The music sounds wonderful on an old piano. The percussive timbres, and the rich partials - they can transform Kreisleriana. The one I ended up becoming completely addicted to was by a very obscure pianist, and may well be (typically) very rare now - his name is Pierre Bouyer. If you ever get a chance to hear his recordings, take it.
> 
> On the strength of his Schumann I took a punt on Bouyer's Beethoven - not a composer I like but you never know. And in fact, I thought he did for the Waldstein what he'd done for Kreisleriana - just reveal new things about how the music can sound, new poetry in the music.
> 
> These composers wrote for instruments. Their music is physical sound, not some abstract thing - I think.


I continue to appreciate you bringing Bouyer to my attention. This reminds me of something I read (maybe on here?) about Debussy - Debussy claimed that Beethoven was bad at writing for solo piano, because he left too much space between left and right hands, like there was a missing third hand that should have been in the middle - but really, of course, if you play Beethoven on these older instruments you'll find that the partials of the lower notes fill out the 'mids' of the piece wonderfully...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

cheregi said:


> I'm all for stylistic innovation, but purely from an aural-enjoyment point of view I would really be thrilled if Schumann was more often performed like this (that's Clara's student Fanny Davies playing DBT). It's just gorgeous.
> 
> I continue to appreciate you bringing Bouyer to my attention. This reminds me of something I read (maybe on here?) about Debussy - Debussy claimed that Beethoven was bad at writing for solo piano, because he left too much space between left and right hands, like there was a missing third hand that should have been in the middle - but really, of course, if you play Beethoven on these older instruments you'll find that the partials of the lower notes fill out the 'mids' of the piece wonderfully...


Taken from this Pearl box of CDs (Adelina de Lara is very eccentric!)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> I want to ask you pianists a question. Have you read ETA Hoffmann? Does it help make sense of the music?
> 
> DBT has done pretty well on record, - there's an early recording of DBT by Cortot for example, and Moiseiwitch left a recording too, not to mention Gieseking and Arrau and Pollini and Charles Rosen and Cziffra and Geza Anda and Maria Tipo and Arrau and Kempff and . . . .
> 
> In DBT, some pianists, maybe most, have seen an element of irrationality, of madness in fact - partly because of Schumann's own mental health problems. Cortot's first recording is very striking in this respect, there are sometimes these unsettling unexpected rumbles of bass notes which seem to go strangely deep, to the dark side. Not all pianists have played it like this of course - Kempff for example is refreshingly sane.


No mention of Perahia? That's the only recording I have.

Balanchine used Davidsbündlertänze for a ballet - one of his last. It remains part of the NYCB repertoire, but it's not performed very often. I've never seen it.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

jegreenwood said:


> No mention of Perahia? That's the only recording I have.
> 
> Balanchine used Davidsbündlertänze for a ballet - one of his last. It remains part of the NYCB repertoire, but it's not performed very often. I've never seen it.


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