# Problems for Orchestras playing Loud Music



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43571144

Full judgement here - https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/goldscheider-v-roh-judgmentL.pdf

Musician wins landmark ruling over ruined hearing - Chris Goldscheider a viola player formerly with the Royal Opera House has won a case against them for hearing damage caused by sitting directly in front of the brass section of the orchestra for a rehearsal of Wagner's _Die Walkure_.

What really interests me is the Royal Opera House argued that the artistic value of the music produced by its orchestra meant some hearing damage to its players was inevitable and justifiable. This is the same argument as was used to justify castrati. _Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose_.

Given that, there is some considerable discussion in the judgement about ear protectors, their value and the problems they can cause and the way the Royal Opera House attempted to conform to relevant legislation.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

This has been a problem for a long time, although I never saw any lawsuits about it until your post; but such a thing was inevitable.

Back in the mid-80's I was playing the trumpet part to Vivaldi's "Gloria". After the rehearsal, the viola player who was a member of the North Carolina Symphony and was seated in front of me, turned around and thanked me for not playing too loud.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Taggart;1421965 said:


> ...for hearing damage caused by sitting directly in front of the brass section of the orchestra for a rehearsal of Wagner's Die Walkure


if you did that to somebody out on the street, the judge would throw you in jail


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

I suppose one possibility is to seat the brass on the top tier so they're playing over the heads of the rest of the orchestra, though again that might unbalance the sound. Wearing earplugs is something which I notice more and more people do if they are working in positions where they are exposed to intense noise, though I'm not sure how this will affect the volume they in turn produce: it's noticeable that deaf people/individuals wearing earphones tend to speak rather loudly when they respond to conversations.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

That's what happens when players wear earplugs: their sense of balance is all wrong. In many orchestra, pro and amateur, this awareness of hearing loss and prevention is becoming a serious issue. I play in several different orchestras and none of them have a really good solution for the problem. There is no perfect way to seat people without someone getting trumpets, trombones, or drums straight into the ear. I was at a rehearsal a couple of weeks ago and they had me immediately in front of the third trombone, who was on a riser and his bell was aimed directly at me. I told the manager that you either move me or the trombones or I'm out of here; good luck finding another contrabassoon at this late time. I do use some custom made, pricey, earplugs that really help, and I only insert them in loud passages, but it's still a concern.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Of course, the hundreds of thousands who attend rock concerts every year (not to mention the poor musicians) don't seem to care.  (which I've never understood.)


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

This has been a concern in the folk world since at least the mid 80's Dave Swarbrick had hearing loss after playing with Fairport and other amplified groups. It's interesting to note that many groups are now using earphones linked into the sound system which provide them with a tailored feedback of the band's sound rather than on stage foldback speakers. Often the foldback can be tailored through a smartphone app, so that e.g. the keyboard or rhythm players can listen more closely to the melody players or pick out particular features of the performance.

One of the problems of the Royal Opera House was that to adapt the pit would have taken a big chunk out of their seating revenue so they went the muffler route. Even then, the earplugs they provided ( 9 db reduction ) were not good enough and people had larger foam versions ( 20 db reduction). Some musicians had their score marked to tell them when to insert the bigger plugs and when to go back to the lighter versions.  Balance was also mentioned in the judgement as one of the problems of using earplugs.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Of course, the hundreds of thousands who attend rock concerts every year (not to mention the poor musicians) don't seem to care.  (which I've never understood.)


Attending a rock concert every now and then is one thing. I'm sure many rock musicians do incur hearing loss, and some audience members too. But sitting in front of the brass section every rehearsal and every concert day after day is another. Edit: Trust me on this one, I've been there. Remember I'm a FLUTEman.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I would think that the in-ear monitors (that I think Taggart is referring to) used by pop/rock singers would be the answer for those in the orchestra sitting near the brass. The problem of hearing damage in the workplace and elsewhere has not been addressed, not only because companies don't protect employees, but also because so many people don't look to protect themselves. Thus, severe hearing loss after age 60-70 is not uncommon and little is being done to prevent it.

People listen to music through headphones at too high a volume. Amplified concerts can be harmful. Even the previews at movies are played at dangerous volumes. I use earplugs at movies, amplified concerts and even when running a blender.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Some orchestras use plexiglas shields. Is this at all helpful for the woodwinds who usually sit in front of the brass section? I so agree with you DaveM about previews at the movies - ridiculous volumes. I take ear plugs to the movies too!


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

DaveM said:


> The problem of hearing damage in the workplace and elsewhere has not been addressed...


My personal experience contradicts this. When I was in college, I worked two summers ('73 and '74) in a Navy shipyard. The federal government was well aware of the dangers to hearing caused by workplace noise. We were required to wear either earplugs or earmuffs, depending on the job we were working on. If you got caught without hearing protection, you got written up. Full-time employees underwent periodic hearing tests.

As for rock concerts... well, I'm just sitting back waiting for the inevitable hearing loss to start.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

He should be glad he doesn't play in a marching band, where I'm sure it's worse. When you play in the stands at football games or play in confined spaces indoors at rehearsal or pep rallies, at my high school you would have been standing in front of about 20 trumpets, 20 trombones, 16 horns, 12 euphoniums, and 8 tubas. And when we'd play loud, you wouldn't be able to talk to the person next to you even if you screamed. I'd say some songs we'd play at pep rallies (like one called "Championship") were as loud as a rock concert. Much louder than an orchestra. I know I haven't suffered any hearing loss, but I wonder if the people who played in front of us may have.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Bluecrab said:


> My personal experience contradicts this. When I was in college, I worked two summers ('73 and '74) in a Navy shipyard. The federal government was well aware of the dangers to hearing caused by workplace noise. We were required to wear either earplugs or earmuffs, depending on the job we were working on. If you got caught without hearing protection, you got written up. Full-time employees underwent periodic hearing tests.


Good to hear that!


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Torkelburger said:


> He should be glad he doesn't play in a marching band, where I'm sure it's worse. When you play in the stands at football games or play in confined spaces indoors at rehearsal or pep rallies, at my high school you would have been standing in front of about 20 trumpets, 20 trombones, 16 horns, 12 euphoniums, and 8 tubas. And when we'd play loud, you wouldn't be able to talk to the person next to you even if you screamed. I'd say some songs we'd play at pep rallies (like one called "Championship") were as loud as a rock concert. Much louder than an orchestra. I know I haven't suffered any hearing loss, but I wonder if the people who played in front of us may have.


You can't be sure of that without a hearing test. The first to go are the higher frequencies well above voice range. Most people are not aware of hearing loss until it starts getting into the voice range when one finds it difficult to discern parts of conversations on TV or in crowds. That's when one starts complaining that people don't speak clearly enough anymore and demands that TV volume be raised.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Beet131 said:


> Some orchestras use plexiglas shields. Is this at all helpful for the woodwinds who usually sit in front of the brass section?


Yes, the plexiglass shields do help and many orchestras are using them.
It's pretty amazing how loud an unamplified orchestra can be..for a performance of Shostakovich Sym #7, one of my section mates brought a decibel meter to one of the concetts. At the finale, the onstage volume level reached 116-118 db....that's of course with all the xtra brass, full percussion, bass drum, timpani blasting away at full volume.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, the plexiglass shields do help and many orchestras are using them.
> It's pretty amazing how loud an unamplified orchestra can be..for a performance of Shostakovich Sym #7, one of my section mates brought a decibel meter to one of the concetts. At the finale, the onstage volume level reached 116-118 db....that's of course with all the xtra brass, full percussion, bass drum, timpani blasting away at full volume.


I just took a peak at hearnet.com and it showed that with sustained volumes of 90-95 db's permanent hearing damage can occur. Many Rock concerts are in the range of 120 db's. But, you're approaching that with the Shostakovich 7th. I know it's only for a few minutes, but with multiple rehearsals and performances it can certainly be a concern.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, the plexiglass shields do help and many orchestras are using them.
> It's pretty amazing how loud an unamplified orchestra can be..for a performance of Shostakovich Sym #7, one of my section mates brought a decibel meter to one of the concetts. At the finale, the onstage volume level reached 116-118 db....that's of course with all the xtra brass, full percussion, bass drum, timpani blasting away at full volume.


Presumably the audience doesn't need to be concerned?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I don't think so - there is quite a distance from the source...now, amplified music, that's a different story...

I remember playing a run of "Jesus Christ Superstar" when it first came out, and went on the road...The production brought their own rock group, and first Trumpeter - a big, burly, 250 lb gorilla who never played less then fortissimo!! lol!! The local contractor hired local union guys to fill the rest of the orchestra - all big symphony players, who really play out. The show producers insisted on miking everyone!! and running it thru the mixing board...the conductor had conducted the show at least 2000x, he was competent but kind of a prick...he kept telling everyone to play softer, and let the sound engineers set the level...Well, these were all symphony people, heavy hitters, they don't play softer in a big hall filled with audience...so we all played loud as hell to keep up with the rock band, plus we were amplified!!...geezus, it was some loud!!
Luckily for me, I was seated in the back of the pit, behind the big speakers, the huge theater horns that were aimed straight at the poor audience!!...My friends all asked how the show was, 'cause they wanted tickets - I said "It's great, but make sure you don't sit any closer than row 20!! otherwise, you'll get blown away!!" the guyd in the front of the pit, and the audience in the first few rows were in trouble....


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

They've also lost on appeal -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47965734

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/04/...kzrOd5xf_9nZzMSMQMQEnfxW_m3ITmKzwmzE1Kw0bEWcR


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Taggart said:


> They've also lost on appeal -
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47965734
> 
> https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/04/...kzrOd5xf_9nZzMSMQMQEnfxW_m3ITmKzwmzE1Kw0bEWcR


"It was the first time acoustic shock had been recognised as a condition which could be compensated by a court... In its appeal, the ROH claimed the artistic value of the music produced by the orchestra meant that some hearing damage to its players was inevitable and justifiable - but that was rejected by the court."

IMO, completely unacceptable. Perhaps the Royal Opera House needs to reconsider the acoustics of its orchestra pit. Since when is Art supposed to damage its participants as an acceptable trade-off for the experience? I bet they've known of this problem for years but musicians have been forced to work under these conditions because it's their livelihood. I agree with the settlement and consider the ROH guilty of artistic abuse. I hope the book is thrown at them because I wouldn't want to work under these conditions either. It's common knowledge that high decibels over a certain level can damage the ears. It's time to remodel their pit so it's not as enclosed and damaging to the hearing. What's wrong with management? Would they want to sit in those high dBs week after week after rehearsing a Wagner overture? Long or repeated exposure to sounds at or above 85 decibels can cause hearing damage... and the ROH would get as high as 130 db in an orchestra pit.


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