# Vinyl LP records resurgence



## Head_case

> Vinyl isn't dead. It is not on life-support. And it certainly isn't going anywhere fast.
> 
> In fact, sales of vinyl albums have been increasing over the last five years. The value of the market went up from £3.4m in 2011 to £5.7m in 2012, according to the Entertainment Retailers Association (ERA).


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-21010240

Nuts......vinyl LP just won't die!

Now I'm going to have to buy cheap digital downloads with the price of vinyl LPs rising


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## DavidA

How I miss vinyl. The sheer joy of getting it out the sleeve and finding somehow it had managed to get scratched just by being in the sleeve. I really miss all those crackles and pops. I just don't understand why anyone would prefer vinyl to CD.


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## Vaneyes

No, no, your new hobby can be vinyl tripping. Each free moment can be used to scour all the used stuff shops near 'n not so near. 
Hunting and Gathering is the term. Once reserved for CDs, it's come full circle. Enjoy, it's a new day!


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I'll have to confess I'm a vinyl tripping junkie. Always looking for a vinyl bargain or rarity in shops/ markets or stalls- anyway, maybe I should join LPAA. Yes people keep buying CD's please, the vinyl is mine!

Gives me an idea for a thread thou, to further my addiction..... *the best / worst places to find old vinyl *, Jeeze that almost gives me a buzz.

Found one near me that is a new fav - (in Perth OZ), a trendy clothes store in the city that contains a huge collection of uncatalogued vinyl (gives me a buzz), that shop keeper tells me has been lying around in the shop for about 20 years mmmmm tasty but not good if your looking for specific stuff but great fun in a random way.


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## Manxfeeder

Out in Nashville, we have Grimey's, which is for those into vinyl. One time I had the owner salivating over one of my old Blue Note recordings. 

Personally, I've had enough of that, knowing that every time I played a vinyl recording, I was bringing it closer to its inevitable destruction.


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## Head_case

DavidA said:


> How I miss vinyl. The sheer joy of getting it out the sleeve and finding somehow it had managed to get scratched just by being in the sleeve. I really miss all those crackles and pops. I just don't understand why anyone would prefer vinyl to CD.


Haha ..! That's okay ....all the better! Leave vinyl LP for those who can! :tiphat:


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## Head_case

Manxfeeder said:


> Out in Nashville, we have Grimey's, which is for those into vinyl. One time I had the owner salivating over one of my old Blue Note recordings. *
> 
> Personally, I've had enough of that, knowing that every time I played a vinyl recording, I was bringing it closer to its inevitable destruction.*


I like this idea.....perhaps if my vinyl LP records all expire when I pop it, then they won't leave a carbon footprint with the spontaneous combustion 

Truth is....if you're loving the music that much, then you need to buy it on two LPs....one for listening, and the other sealed just in case the first expires lol


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Manxfeeder said:


> Out in Nashville, we have Grimey's, which is for those into vinyl. One time I had the owner salivating over one of my old Blue Note recordings.
> 
> Personally, I've had enough of that, knowing that every time I played a vinyl recording, I was bringing it closer to its inevitable destruction.


Ah now wer are getting somewhere - Grimey's good name too mmmm, might have to get there sometime. The more vinyl that goes poof, the more rare they are ......


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## Head_case

I haven't been to a really good vinyl LP record store. 

What's disappointing is that I virtually never find any repertoire in an old record store that I'm into. I can find loads of stuff I might listen to if I was desperate for one last yes just one last yesss yess! one very last vinyl LP. 

In fact I bought one by Willie Nelson. Now the guy croons and writes American folk music, but you know, sometimes, that is just exactly what I like to listen to: old time Americana country and western back to back with Szymanowski's opulent string quartets


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## Vaneyes

Vinyl can be where you least expect it. Overlook nothing, Eddie. I don't need to tell *you* that.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Absolutely corect, just like on American pickers......


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## Head_case

Vaneyes said:


> Vinyl can be where you least expect it. Overlook nothing, Eddie. I don't need to tell *you* that.


and not to forget...places where you can most expect it ...like here in this forum:

http://www.revolutions33.co.uk/

http://www.classicrecords.co.uk/ (please leave those string quartet LPs alone guys! :lol:

http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/

http://www.classicalvinylrecords.co.uk/

http://www.classicalvinyl.com/

The scarey thing is....all of my UK sources sell via the internet now so if I find my next vinyl LP to get list is disappearing, it's possibly been sold across the world...


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## Vaneyes

Can you say Japan. It's gotta be mint, though.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

yep Japanese pressing - your pressing my buttons now.

I gotta a few of them my fav (guilty pleasure is George Harrisons All things Must Pass -Jap printing)

In OZ the best record shop I have found (for the picker), is Porthole Records in Port Adelaide.

Note I'm not the Eddie in the video - this shop is a bit rough round hte edges and the guy who runs it smoke behind the counter, very cool!


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## bigshot

In Los Angeles we have the Pasadena City College record swap meet the first Sunday of every month. Lots of one and two buck a disk gems!


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## oogabooha

I don't know why people think that vinyls are dead. It's simply another format and it's still thriving. Maybe not at a mainstream level, but still thriving nonetheless.


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## soundlover

I was a vinyl collector.Searching and finding that old analogue recording was a thrilling experience for me.Of course the best part was to put it on the turntable and seeing it turning 33 1/3 times per minute while listening my favourite music.It was a great hobby until i understood that I was getting obsessed with the format and the act of collecting and forgot the real purpose:MUSIC.
Now I listen my mp3s,flacs,cds and vinyls of course!!So beware my friends..never forget that music is what matters,never mind the format...


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## bigshot

There is an awful lot of music that was released on LP that has never made it to CD. That is the best reason to collect LPs.


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## DavidA

Head_case said:


> Haha ..! That's okay ....all the better! Leave vinyl LP for those who can! :tiphat:


With great pleasure. BTW some time ago I helped an elderly relative move out of his flat into an old folks home. I noticed he had some old LPs some of which were original Columbia, HMV stereo, etc.. He was going to chuck them out but I took them to a dealer who gave me quite a bit for them. Not as much as he made, of course, but better than nothing!


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## Head_case

> Now I listen my mp3s,flacs,cds and vinyls of course!!So beware my friends..never forget that music is what matters,never mind the format...


No danger of that in a music forum. On an audiophile forum perhaps...your caution would be well served hot 

Bigshot's spot on about the trove of vinyl LP recordings: we went through a heyday when thankfully the trend-following masses were ditching their LP turntables and vinyl LPs, proclaiming digital as the next best thing to sliced bread.

This movement had a phenomenal outcome: suddenly, vinyl LP and collectors' vinyl LP became affordable for those who loved music and weren't quite up there in buying the latest and greatest MP3 player fad but wanted quality hi-fi grade recordings


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## Hassid

Between 47 and 83, several hundred thousands of LP were published. I guess that maybe a third of them are on CD. There are on private hands, collections of thousands of vinyls, and the owners wouldn't sell them at any price. But when they die, widows will probably take all of them to the garbage. If you know any of them, be attentive to be on time, and make to her an offer so good that she can't refuse.


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## Vaneyes

Even putting them beside the garbage, rather than in the garbage, could give them a chance at..."extended play".


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## bigshot

I collect both LPs and 78s. Most rekkid dealers in Los Angeles are super picky. They won't buy anything unless it's super rare and in pristine condition. That leaves a lot of good music looking for a home. All I have to do is call up advertisements in the paper for large collections for sale and tell them if they can't sell them, I'll haul them away for free. (My house is now full of great records. I'm not doing that any more.)


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## millionrainbows

Head_case said:


> Nuts......vinyl LP just won't die! Now I'm going to have to buy cheap digital downloads with the price of vinyl LPs rising


Now all they need to do is solve the problem of dust. Should I listen on a clean room? What if they sealed LPs in plastic like a CD, and read them on a laser turntable? That would solve the problem of dust.


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## bigshot

Rekkid nuts know how to deal with dust. You simply wash your records in white vinegar and distilled water. I learned that trick from an interview with Mark Obert-Thorne.


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## soundlover

bigshot said:


> There is an awful lot of music that was released on LP that has never made it to CD. That is the best reason to collect LPs.


I really can't think a piece of music that can't be found in digital form nowadays.Although I prefer vinyl I have to admit that thanks to technology anyone can find anything even if he lives in a detached village.maybe you mean some specific recordings of a play,in this case I agree.


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## Head_case

The phenomenal recordings of the Beethoven Quartet of the Myaskovsky String Quartet No.XIII has been out of print on vinyl LP for decades: I have a copy of this historic recording, first premiered by the Beethoven Quartet. Although much of their discography has come to digital format, this has not. 

Then also, the recordings of the Lowenguth Quartet whose traversal of the French string quartets is well worth owning on vinyl LP. Much of the Taneyev String Quartet's back catalogue has still not appeared on digital format: like the Klebanov String Quartets or the Stankovich String Quartets. Even the string quartet works by Peiko, Levitin and the famous Svetlanov have failed to appear on digital format ...decades after the vinyl LPs have come to print. A whole body of just one small form of music (string quartet music) here has not yet appeared in digital format - and with the increasing failure of the younger generation to engage with classical music, it's possible that there will never be the motivation to undertake this much desired revival of the music itself, in whatever format, for the listening audience.

If that was not surmountable, the next problem of the quality of the digital transfers needs to be tackled. One example - the famous Quartetto Italiano recording of the prize winning Debussy & Ravel string quartets, is well known to anyone with the slightest interest in french chamber music. I have the original vinyl LP version; the original first CD transfer, and the later reissued digital remastered transfer. 

The warmth and spaciousness of the music is superior on the vinyl LP version, and the depth and dynamics of the music more enjoyable on the vinyl LP version for me. Next is the original CD version. 

I have no idea why the remastered digital CD version sounds worse to me than the original CD version. Surely the remastering would have improved its sound quality? Someone with technical remastering knowledge might be able to explain, or just surmise there's something wrong with my hearing. 

Maybe there is. The vinyl LP version is the most engaging version - snap crackle and pop are a product of your cereal bowl or lack of dust maintenance lol


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## soundlover

I don't know about the recordings you refer to,I guess you are right.
which format sounds better?there is no answer to this question.the debate lasts for so long that I have come to the conclusion that it has to do with our pshycology or some people listen with their eyes(except their ears).after all it is a matter of taste.if you try to find out which sounds better you'll start listening to sounds instead of music,that was what happened to me some time ago..


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## Vaneyes

Head_case said:


> ....the next problem of the quality of the digital transfers needs to be tackled. One example - the famous Quartetto Italiano recording of the prize winning Debussy & Ravel string quartets, is well known to anyone with the slightest interest in french chamber music. I have the original vinyl LP version; the original first CD transfer, and the later reissued digital remastered transfer.
> 
> The warmth and spaciousness of the music is superior on the vinyl LP version, and the depth and dynamics of the music more enjoyable on the vinyl LP version for me. Next is the original CD version.
> 
> I have no idea why the remastered digital CD version sounds worse to me than the original CD version. Surely the remastering would have improved its sound quality? Someone with technical remastering knowledge might be able to explain, or just surmise there's something wrong with my hearing.
> 
> Maybe there is. The vinyl LP version is the most engaging version - snap crackle and pop are a product of your cereal bowl or lack of dust maintenance lol


I also thought that about Italian Qt's Ravel & Debussy. In my case, the Philips Silver Line Classics reissue sounded better than subsequent remastering.

I also have suspicions re DG Originals remastering of HvK Bruckner 8, though I do not own it.

Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" LP, I thought sounded better than CD. I do not know if that would be my experience now, since I gave the LP away twenty years ago, and sometime later purchased a CD of, that reassures me it was remastered from the original analog tapes. There are millions of such stories in this naked city.


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## Head_case

It would be convenient if it was down to psychology.....perhaps this is something transmissible, since everyone who demos the Debussy & Ravel string quartets on vinyl LP vs CD in my apartment, or the Suzanne Vega 'Tom's Diner' remixes on vinyl LP vs CD, all resoundingly agree that the vinyl LP versions are better. Only one friend of mine owns a vinyl LP player: the rest were sceptics, now silenced. They're happy with the sound quality of CD playing...but the engagement with the vinyl LP playing....that is something which is not imaginary. It's not about hearing just sounds; the music is a complete Gestalt unto itself, and this has to be grasped, through engagement. Kudos to anyone who can do it on a tinny iPod speaker. 

Realistically though, it doesn't cost a lot to get the sound quality out of a vinyl LP player. 

Go listen to one today! Then go listen to one every day :lol:


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## Guest

I have recently been bitten by the vinyl bug as I received for Christmas a turntable that allows me to convert vinyl to digital format. Now I can store the music on my computer, and not have to worry about wearing out the vinyl. I find the "snap, crackle, and pop" is only noticeable in the quiet moments, so long as there aren't any major scratches, and you clean it well before recording. It has been a long time since I listened to vinyl (my father had a turntable growing up, with a complete collection of the Dave Brubeck Quartet recordings, as well as a DG complete Beethoven collection), and was really surprised that the sound on the vinyl can be really very good. My prized possession now in my as of yet meager vinyl collection is the incredible DG recordings of Tchaikovsky's 4th, 5th, and 6th symphonies by Yevgeny Mravinsky and the Leningrad Philharmonic.

I know of a used music/movie/book store near to me that has a large vinyl collection, but have not visited since I acquired my turntable. I am looking forward to it.


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## Head_case

Vaneyes said:


> I also thought that about Italian Qt's Ravel & Debussy. In my case, the Philips Silver Line Classics reissue sounded better than subsequent remastering.
> 
> I also have suspicions re DG Originals remastering of HvK Bruckner 8, though I do not own it.
> 
> Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" LP, I thought sounded better than CD. I do not know if that would be my experience now, since I gave the LP away twenty years ago, and sometime later purchased a CD of, that reassures me it was remastered from the original analog tapes. There are millions of such stories in this naked city.


Wow ...maybe my Philips original version of the Debussy/Ravel string quartets is the same as yours? I will have to check when I get home (in a month  ). This is much better than the blue coloured proclamation: "Digitally Remastered" version which cost much more than the original Phillips version and had me thinking it would sound much better being a remastering.

The modern vinyl LP, cut from original digital sources, don't show the same high quality as the older vintage vinyl LPs as far as I can tell, although it is hard to tell since I mostly only buy modern alternative rock where the drum and bass tend to be more punchy on vinyl LP.

And lest I forget .... the 45rpm recordings are just life enhancing lol.


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## Vaneyes

As stated, it does not cost a lot to hear vinyl, with good quality sound. FWIW I'm using the same equipment from over two decades ago--Technics SL-D1, with Stanton 681 EEE cartridge. Excellent condition--purchased new, used sparingly now.


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## Head_case

> I have recently been bitten by the vinyl bug as I received for Christmas a turntable that allows me to convert vinyl to digital format. Now I can store the music on my computer, and not have to worry about wearing out the vinyl.


Are these any good? They look really convenient.

What I realised I could do, was hook up my mini-disc player to the pre-amplifier and record the vinyl LP direct from there. I'm still dithering over whether to get an Okki-Nokki vinyl record cleaner - so clinically clean that it's unbelievably pristine.

Funny though...like Vaneyes - I only have 1x vinyl LP player. I have about 5 different CD players ...a hi-fi one or two, a car CD player, a portable one, and one on my laptop. With MP3 or digital, I have an iPod which is a bit of a museum relic that I barely touch but it's there. When I visit friends and acquaintances, most of them have upgraded....from digital format to other digital format...not just once, but several times. From CD to DVD, or SACD, to MP3 player, to multi-media, to streaming....argh. After all that, you'd think the sound quality was better (no ... not..!) but it is more technologically advanced. They seem to like that and the plasma t.v. to worship


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## Guest

Head_case said:


> Are these any good? They look really convenient.
> 
> What I realised I could do, was hook up my mini-disc player to the pre-amplifier and record the vinyl LP direct from there. I'm still dithering over whether to get an Okki-Nokki vinyl record cleaner - so clinically clean that it's unbelievably pristine.
> 
> Funny though...like Vaneyes - I only have 1x vinyl LP player. I have about 5 different CD players ...a hi-fi one or two, a car CD player, a portable one, and one on my laptop. With MP3 or digital, I have an iPod which is a bit of a museum relic that I barely touch but it's there. When I visit friends and acquaintances, most of them have upgraded....from digital format to other digital format...not just once, but several times. From CD to DVD, or SACD, to MP3 player, to multi-media, to streaming....argh. After all that, you'd think the sound quality was better (no ... not..!) but it is more technologically advanced. They seem to like that and the plasma t.v. to worship


For me, the turntable works fine. I have only had it for about 1 month, but am enjoying it. I don't know how good the sound is, to be honest. The turntable plugs into my MacBook Pro, and not into an expensive sound system. I can compress it in whatever format I like (limited by what iTunes will do). The software is not the greatest, and it is a little bit of a hassle to split it into tracks - the software will do it automatically, but tends to start a new track whenever there is a quiet moment, and so I have had movements split into multiple tracks. I end up splitting the tracks manually, so that I can keep the entire movement together in one track, but that means baby-sitting it. The end result has been just fine for me. Again - I am not an audiophile, and don't have the money right now to purchase the necessary equipment, so this was a great way for me to experience vinyl on a budget.


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## bigshot

Head_case said:


> I'm still dithering over whether to get an Okki-Nokki vinyl record cleaner - so clinically clean that it's unbelievably pristine. :


The only reason to get a mechanical record cleaner is if you plan to do a lot of buying of thrift store records or large old dusty collections. If you're just buying a few records a month, cleaning them with white vinegar is easier than going through the trouble of using a machine. Once a record is clean, it's easy to keep it that way through regular brushing when you play it.


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## presto

I started out collecting vinyl as a teen and amassed 500 records buy the time I switched over to CD and I have never looked back.
I am a nostalgic person but I would never want to listen to vinyl again. I used to get irritated by the snap crackle and pop no matter how careful I looked after my collection. 
End of side distortion and the inconvenience of having to turn over halfway through a symphony are things I’m glad to be rid of. 
Give me CD’s any day!


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## KenOC

Why does this thread remind me of the CD versus MP3 thread? I particularly love the statements that LPs can be kept noise-free with proper care. Although I knew some quite knowledgeable people in those days, this was never deemed possible. By anybody.


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## bigshot

It's possible to totally eliminate random surface noise digitally. Records aren't stone silent like CDs but they still can sound exellent.


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## KenOC

bigshot said:


> It's possible to totally eliminate random surface noise digitally.


True, or almost at least. But then aren't you remastering to a digital format?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

KenOC said:


> True, or almost at least. But then aren't you remastering to a digital format?


But usually mastered from a analog source i.e. tape (more often than not), so does it matter if you digitally filter out noise before or after mastering? So it just depends how close you want to be to the original recording..... That why I like vinyl


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## bigshot

CD quality sound is more than capable of containing all the sound on an LP.


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## Head_case

bigshot said:


> The only reason to get a mechanical record cleaner is if you plan to do a lot of buying of thrift store records or large old dusty collections. If you're just buying a few records a month, cleaning them with white vinegar is easier than going through the trouble of using a machine. Once a record is clean, it's easy to keep it that way through regular brushing when you play it.


Interesting to hear about your recommendation of white vinegar. I've not tried this before. I use 100% distilled alcohol, but it is getting expensive (about £5 for 150ml). I'll try the vinegar out....

Btw - if you have a pet cat or dog, an Okki Nokki cleaner is a real bonus!


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## Head_case

Another article on the vinyl resurgence: - this one seeks to explain why the rise of alternative pop/rock bands are releasing on vinyl LP:



> 'Digital Music Created the Resurgence In Vinyl...'
> Sunday, March 18, 2012
> by paul
> 
> What's really causing the sudden rebound in vinyl? The easy answer is that fans just want something tangible, a physical memento that isn't iTunes or Spotify. But the more you dig into the vinyl resurgence, the harder it becomes to separate it from everything that's happening in digital. In fact, the incredible access and discovery that digital formats have enabled could be the very reason why vinyl is experiencing its little comeback. "Digital music has created the resurgence in vinyl that we are seeing right now," Jennifer Freund, head of DoradoPkg, confidently told a group of vinyl-heads at SXSW this weekend. "Bands want to have that connection with fans, they want that physical connection."


http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2012/120317vinyl


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## Head_case

Another article, explaining how new vinyl LP releases over the past few years, have outstripped previous decades. More vinyl LP releases have been made in recent years and it's not since the 1980's, vinyl LPs were made in such large numbers:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-20008118-27.html


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## Head_case

For the statisticians amongst us:










Go vinyl haters go to [email protected] lol!!

http://blog.dubspot.com/the-resurgence-of-vinyl-continues-in-2012-record-stores-making-a-comeback/


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## soundlover

Everything depends on what each listener needs.I love vinyl records but with too kids in the house it was impossible to go on with my hobby.So my main source of music is a laptop-dac-amplifier now and my lp collection is in the basement with my dual turntable and arcam amplifier,ready for the special lonely nights..


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## Vaneyes

I digress to fondly remembering visiting my grandparents (mother's side) during summers. On their enclosed front porch sat a gramophone (similar to photo). I loved winding it up. I had a 33 1/3 - 45 player at home, but this was "way more" fun.

Hundreds of 78s (mostly popular music) were scattered about. None in their covers. I cringe now, thinking of their total exposure. Talk about snaps, crackles, pops, and others. My grandparents didn't care about grime, and sticky hands. They cared only about their grandkids having fun.

View attachment 12291


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## bigshot

One of my theories about music is that it usually sounds best in its original release, not in subsequent rereleases on more modern formats. I was angry at overprocessed 30s Jazz CDs, so I decided to see if a 78 really sounded better than that. I bought a suitcase Victrola that had been restored and a few batwing Victors. The sound quality totally blew me away. It wasn't a flat response by any stretch of the imagination, but it was clear, present and LOUD. Almost devoid of surface noise too. I later tried to replicate the sound using electronic transcription and digital restoration techniques. It was very difficult but successful.

Acoustic phonographs are wonderful. If you think that there are a lot of LPs that never got released to CD, you should see how many 78s never even made it to LP! Amazing stuff.


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## bigshot

The thing to remember about the "upswing in popularity" of vinyl records is that even the best selling new LP record sells under 20,000 copies a year. That isn't exactly the vital format charts like the one above would lead you to believe.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

bigshot said:


> The thing to remember about the "upswing in popularity" of vinyl records is that even the best selling new LP record sells under 20,000 copies a year. That isn't exactly the vital format charts like the one above would lead you to believe.


Keep it quiet - don't you know that's what we are trying to do = more cheaper records (MCRs)


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## KenOC

bigshot said:


> The thing to remember about the "upswing in popularity" of vinyl records is that even the best selling new LP record sells under 20,000 copies a year. That isn't exactly the vital format charts like the one above would lead you to believe.


I'd bet there are plenty of CDs that don't sell a tenth of that... LPs are doing strikingly well considering the inferiority of the medium. :devil:


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## Head_case

bigshot said:


> The thing to remember about the "upswing in popularity" of vinyl records is that even the best selling new LP record sells under 20,000 copies a year. That isn't exactly the vital format charts like the one above would lead you to believe.


This year's different - looks like it's selling 33,000 copies for the best selling LP release of 2012:


> Jack White's Grammy-nominated solo debut, "Blunderbuss," has bested the Beatles. The album sold the most vinyl copies in 2012, taking the title from "Abbey Road", which was No. 1 for the past three years. "Blunderbuss" numbered 33,000 LPs last year, also making it the highest-selling new album since SoundScan started tracking vinyl figures in 2008.


http://www.heyreverb.com/blog/2013/01/04/jack-white-top-vinyl-2012/59333/

Vaneyes and you are very fortunate - I've only ever heard 78's in a hand lever operated gramaphone with a built in speaker which wasn't very well maintained.

The resurgence of vinyl LPs is an interesting phenomenon in a mass digital market. We're seeing parallel movements in the arts world, and especially photography, where film photography is re-establishing its balance, after going near complete extinction a few years ago due to the mass digital phone/camera market.


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## Vaneyes

All this 78-talk, got me Googling again for Andrew Rose, Mark Obert-Thorn, Ward Marsten (a few links below). I'm not a historical collector, though I do enjoy reading about restoration efforts.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr11/articles/andrew-rose.htm

http://www.pristineclassical.com/MOT.html

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs022/1104014358705/archive/1110925301075.html

http://www.marstonrecords.com/html/press/press_WSJ20050825.htm

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/planar78.htm


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## bigshot

KenOC said:


> I'd bet there are plenty of CDs that don't sell a tenth of that... LPs are doing strikingly well considering the inferiority of the medium. :devil:


The minimum run for replicated CDs (glass masters, not CD-R) is 1000. I would bet there aren't many commercial CDs that are duplicated in runs under 5 or 10,000.


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## bigshot

Vaneyes said:


> All this 78-talk, got me Googling again for Andrew Rose, Mark Obert-Thorn, Ward Marsten (a few links below). I'm not a historical collector, though I do enjoy reading about restoration efforts.


There are many different approaches to 78rpm transcription and mastering. On one end are the engineers who believe that you should just find a stylus size and shape to fit the record and issue it as is. On the other end are folks who "sweeten" the transcriptions with lots of digital noise reduction and digital reverberation. Personally, I'm in the middle, leaning towards the non-intrusive processing side. I think impulse noise reduction (declickers) work great, but broadband filtration just smears over the sound. Digital reverbs like the ones used by Rose and Dutton go way over the line in my opinion.


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## moody

Vaneyes said:


> I digress to fondly remembering visiting my grandparents (mother's side) during summers. On their enclosed front porch sat a gramophone (similar to photo). I loved winding it up. I had a 33 1/3 - 45 player at home, but this was "way more" fun.
> 
> Hundreds of 78s (mostly popular music) were scattered about. None in their covers. I cringe now, thinking of their total exposure. Talk about snaps, crackles, pops, and others. My grandparents didn't care about grime, and sticky hands. They cared only about their grandkids having fun.
> 
> View attachment 12291


That is very similar to the one my parents had. Of course the dust and gunge didn't matter much because the huge pickup and steel needles would plough through the lot--I loved it and it's what started it all rolling.
They had no interest in classical music but went to the theatre and to musicals in London quite often,but that all stopped with the outbreak of war. Life was quite simple you had three types of needle--soft ,medium and loud.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Why does this thread remind me of the CD versus MP3 thread? I particularly love the statements that LPs can be kept noise-free with proper care. Although I knew some quite knowledgeable people in those days, this was never deemed possible. By anybody.


The problem was that American pressings were lousy,much to my surprise.I used to bring back many as they were to be found so cheaply in the big "cut-out" stores (is that correct?)


----------



## KenOC

New article: "According to Nielsen SoundScan, 2012 was another record-breaking year as vinyl album sales rose 17.7 percent from the previous year. The top 10 vinyl albums of 2012 read like a playlist on 89.3 the Current (think: Mumford & Sons, Black Keys and Bon Iver). Jack White's 'Blunderbuss' topped the chart. But the band sitting in the No. 2 spot might come as a surprise." (It was Abbey Road...)

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/188729271.html?refer=y


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## techniquest

I started collecting music records (vinyl) when I was about 13 - a Music for Pleasure recording of Beethoven's 5th (which sadly I don't still have). Over the years I built up a goodly collection of vinyl. This stopped when I bought a CD player in 1995, but resumed on an incidental basis when I found cheap 2nd-hand vinyl for sale in charity shops and markets. Then I found them at car-boot sales at ridiculously low prices and only last year did I finally vow to stop buying vinyl, mainly due to space.
I don't play them very often, but occasionally it's fun. I have some scarce recordings too such as Ormandy's first recording of Shostakovich 4th, Berglunds Shostakovich 7 and also his 5th and 10th in luscious box sets; Rattles Mahler 10, Barbirolli's Mahler 5 and Mahler 6, Klemperers Mahler 7 - yes the slow one! I've got quite a lot of HMV/Melodiya recordings, the Martinon Prokofiev symphonies on Turnabout, the Beethoven symphonies in box set with Bohm, and so on and on...


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

moody said:


> The problem was that American pressings were lousy,much to my surprise.I used to bring back many as they were to be found so cheaply in the big "cut-out" stores (is that correct?)


You should try Aussie pressing (or not ), they were /are the dregs - usually worn out masters handed down from probably the US, done on the cheap- with black and white covers - but what has given us is some really limited versions of pressings here that are unique- if not of the highest audio quality.......


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## Head_case

The Soviet era Melodiya ones seem quite remarkable in this respect. Was the Soviet industry adept in the 1970s' at producing quality vinyl LPs?

I really love the Melodiya releases from this era: far being being clinical and thin, they can be lean, but athletically pitted in the mix. I guess those Oktava microphones really were cutting edge back then. 

Some of the strangest if not most unusual releases - a recording of Arthur Honegger's string quartet by the Taneyev Quartet coupled with the Ravel string quartet was one of the most astonishing listens I had come across. 

The Taneyev Quartet recording has never been reissued in this tense and updated modern competition driven field, however it still has one of the most distinctive (however perhaps not faithful nor gallic sounds). The Taneyev Quartet power the Ravel Quartet with an incredible tremulousness of nervous energy which threatens to dissipate into the high register sonorities creating an eeriness of atmosphere for the Ravel. It sounds like nothing I have heard before - none of the idyllic pastoral entry into the quartet, and almost into a Soviet bleakness of the afterworld. 

This is the kind of music which sadly would never make for a resurgence: this kind of music belongs to a world which is slowly slipping out of modern consciousness. 

I need a Nitty Gritty Record Cleaner to clean mine up and upload it onto youtube lol


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## Vaneyes

Re Europe vinyl growth, 52% over the past year.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/04/10/ifpi_annual_music/


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## GrosseFugue

Hey, I just jumped on the vinyl bandwagon! Met some vinyl heads who convinced me. Got an Audio Technica turntable, but it's a whole other world and kinda' overwhelms. All the talk about pressings and original masters, etc. Came across this article that tries to clear things up: http://www.high-endaudio.com/softw.html But the bottom-line seems to be: You have to listen for yourself. So much for a fool-proof way of insuring quality. 

I'm just bought two used LPs: a Columbia records remaster of Serkin's Trout Quintet and Karajan's Fidelio with Jon Vickers. They were so cheap (2 and 5 bucks) as to be irresistible. I do notice a warmer sound, but there is that occasional hiss and pop. Though the records are in good shape, maybe a few "bubbles" on the Karajan. Also ran into some skipping, but maybe that's the dust?

(Still, it's not like CD's were ever damage-proof. The tiniest scratch and you might as well use 'em as coasters. Their small size also made it easy be less careful with them. With records, it's like you are really handling something TANGIBLE.)

Anyways...I was just wondering if folks could give me a quick guide through the morass of the LP world. Basic things I should look for and avoid.

PS -- My mouth is watering at this upcoming limited release from Achiv Productions: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG+Archiv/4791407 Though my friend claims there isn't gonna be a drastic difference in sound quality with these "pressings from Optimal on 180 gsm vinyl stock." Unless I have super-high end equipment.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Good to see we have another convert.

Your friend is correct re: super-high end equipment. But that sort of equipment will also show up flaws in all recorded media CD's included - it all depends on original source of the recording - I've heard master tape hiss coming off both CD's and Lp's on high end equipment- at scary volumes of amplicification mind you but its not hard to find if you go looking.

Vinyl is better.............. and more fun!


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## GrosseFugue

I should add that the LP's I got also sound rather "noisy." Though I'm not sure if this is because of the poor recording quality or the LP medium itself. I'm inclined to think it's the recordings as that may explain why they're so cheap?

I noticed the link I gave mentioned that one should avoid EMI Angel pressings altogether, and that Columbia was inherently inferior to RCA or Mercury. Those happen to be the very records I got. 

Again, this makes me curious to hear better quality vinyls. Not necessarily boutique 180-200 gram stuff. Just stuff that's been better recorded and mastered.

PS -- Oh well, I still got my receipt from Amoeba records; I can always return the Karajan.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

From what I understand (note your mention of Columbia and RCA would apply only to the US), would be the age of the master used in the pressing ie first generation or a hand me down that's well used as a master pressing.


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## cwarchc

Here's a confession.
I have NO classical lp's 
All my vinyl is from decades back, prior to me finding the treasure chest of classical music


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## KenOC

Flash! "Under 25-year-olds are the driving force behind the surge in sales for vinyl records over the past five years. Research by ICM suggests 18 to 24-year-olds are buying more vinyl records than any other age group under fifty."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/22208446


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## Head_case

KenOC said:


> Flash! "Under 25-year-olds are the driving force behind the surge in sales for vinyl records over the past five years. Research by ICM suggests 18 to 24-year-olds are buying more vinyl records than any other age group under fifty."
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/22208446


Good taste for quality vinyl from the younger generation.
Bad taste in rap and jungle beat music lol


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## moody

KenOC said:


> Flash! "Under 25-year-olds are the driving force behind the surge in sales for vinyl records over the past five years. Research by ICM suggests 18 to 24-year-olds are buying more vinyl records than any other age group under fifty."
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/22208446


Yes,but not classical I fancy.


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## cwarchc

I've just bought my 1st classical vinyl.
The Bach is older than me, the quality is faultless. It has been "wet" cleaned and it almost as quiet as a cd, and seems warmer, I don't care if it's only psychological, I like it 
There is definitely something addictive (or is that obsessive?) about vinyl


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## millionrainbows

Key factors in vinyl LP sound: Quality of the vinyl (virgin, or recycled), and when/where the metal master was cut (cutting lathes have improved dramatically). Also, straight-line tracking turntables have less distortion, since the lathes cut the metal master in a straight line radius-to-center, not an arc, as in coventional turntables. 

Longevity and care: Tonearm weight must be less than a gram.
Also, a dust-free environment. I collected most of my records while living in a solid concrete-walled house. My friend could not figure out why his records were dustier and got scratched easier. The answer turned out to be that he lived in a (more expensive) wooden framed house, which was inherently dustier.

Always keep the opening of the dust-sleeve pointing up, so dust is sealed-out when in the jacket. When removing the LP, stand it vertically on end in its dust-sleeve, and let the dust-sleeve "bag out" and not slide against or create friction on the record's surface. Always balance the record using middle finger on the label underneath, and side of thumb (not surface) as the other gripping point. When flipping the record over, use the other hand on the opposite side, release the middle finger from the label, and flip over. This way, no fingerprints are ever placed on the edges of the record.

Do not use any other liquid record-cleaning system than Discwasher. Other cleaners leave tiny "dishwasher" type dried-droplet-residue, which causes noise when dried. Use some sort of anti-static gun or method as well.

When possible, on valuable records, replace paper dust sleeves with rice-paper lined deluxe sleeves.


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## Ukko

(from _GrosseFugue_)

I'm just bought two used LPs: a Columbia records remaster of Serkin's Trout Quintet and Karajan's Fidelio with Jon Vickers. They were so cheap (2 and 5 bucks) as to be irresistible. I do notice a warmer sound, but there is that occasional hiss and pop. Though the records are in good shape, maybe a few "bubbles" on the Karajan. Also ran into some skipping, but maybe that's the dust?

You are playing _dusty_ LPs? To the bulkhead cover with you; 12 lashes!


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## Bradius

I have a lot of vinyl classical records from my grandfather's collection. Mostly stuff from the '30's. My parents have a good collection from the '70s. I just found a record shop in San Mateo that sells classical LPs for .49! or 5 for $1.99. I picked up a complete Schubert lieder collection (Wunderlich and Hotter) and Mahler's das Lied von Erde by Walter. I have a turntable that plugs into my Mac so I can play the music on my computer or transfer it to the computer and thence to CD's.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Hilltroll72 said:


> (from _GrosseFugue_)
> 
> I'm just bought two used LPs: a Columbia records remaster of Serkin's Trout Quintet and Karajan's Fidelio with Jon Vickers. They were so cheap (2 and 5 bucks) as to be irresistible. I do notice a warmer sound, but there is that occasional hiss and pop. Though the records are in good shape, maybe a few "bubbles" on the Karajan. Also ran into some skipping, but maybe that's the dust?
> 
> You are playing _dusty_ LPs? To the bulkhead cover with you; 12 lashes!


Build up of dust would certainly cause skipping but check the tracking force/ anti skating adjustment too if not set correctly disc will skip very easily.


----------



## KenOC

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Build up of dust would certainly cause skipping but check the tracking force/ anti skating adjustment too if not set correctly disc will skip very easily.


In the bad old days I always had to use a gram and a quarter or half. Too light and skipping may occur, or the stylus will rattle in the groove in loud passages.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

KenOC said:


> In the bad old days I always had to use a gram and a quarter or half. Too light and skipping may occur, or the stylus will rattle in the groove in loud passages.


Agreed, I tend to prefer using a little more weight than less also.


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## Vaneyes

Guardian article on pricey vinyl. I'll stay with the one to five buck variety. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/25/pete-hutchison-interview-new-vinyl-recording


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## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> Guardian article on pricey vinyl. I'll stay with the one to five buck variety.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/may/25/pete-hutchison-interview-new-vinyl-recording


re.music.classical.recordings (the newsgroup) has a current discussion on this very subject. From it I gather that the music _source_ is probably one of your $5 LPs. This recording is somehow _enhanced_, increasing the value of the listening experience by a factor of... 800?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I've found a collection of these tiles - "The Great Musicians" Fabbri and Partner's Limited (1966)- with no apostrophe either lol, at the local Adelaide weekly markets. Didn't know much about them but didn't stop me buying a "swag" (can provide translation if required) for $3 Oz each. Left some behind as was not sure about them and the other included Mozart and Wagner!

I picked up ( all in mint condition) with weird 10" 33 1/3 LP's
JS Bach part one and two, Berlioz part one and two, Tchaikovsky part three.

Apparently there are 74 in the series! Wondering if I should go back and get more, even if they are Mozart and the Flying Dutchman Wagner!


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## bigshot

That was a subscription series. Here in the US, similar series of recordings were sold by paperboys. They would deliver a new record every week or every month along with your newspaper.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Thanks- Are they collectable at all?


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## Vaneyes

bigshot said:


> That was a subscription series. Here in the US, similar series of recordings were sold by paperboys. They would deliver a new record every week or every month along with your newspaper.


Along similar lines as someone told me, Johnnie Walker also a rug merchant included a bottle of his new Scotch with every rug sold.


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## Vaneyes

Another reason for vinyl surge--"My dad listens to CDs. Why would I do that?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/arts/music/vinyl-records-are-making-a-comeback.html?_r=0


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## bigshot

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Thanks- Are they collectable at all?


Collectible, yes. Valuable, no.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Ok, thanks for the heads up- they seem intersting but I can imagine not valuable


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## DaveS

Straying off topic possibly. I just purchased a new turntable. I had collected a sizeable collection of LPs in the 70s and 80s and they have been in storage since the late 80s. Many of these records were never opened. I religiously replaced paper LP sleeves when I bought many of the records and always tried to maintain them in good condition. I used a DiscWasher brand LP cleaner, and am not sure if I even have it anymore. Any road, is there a moderately priced disc cleaning device that anyone can recommend these days? I'm excited to have the chance to listen to some of these old gems..but want to maintain the records too. I tried to sell them over the years, but we all know that's a different story with a predictable outcome.


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## bigshot

Check out http://www.garage-a-records.com

They have disk brushes. It sounds like you don't need a wet wash, just a brushing.


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## brotagonist

I used to use a dry 100% cotton cloth, or a slightly moistened one for really soiled albums. I only used tap water to keep my collection in tip-top shape.


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## bigshot

Those microfiber cloths work great too.


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## Antiquarian

Brotagonist, I urge you not to use tap water on your LP's. I only use distilled water as tap may contain minerals that will etch the grooves and degrade the sound. But by looking at the date of your post it may already be too late.


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## Svelte Silhouette

There's a lot of interesting stuff in this thread I'd not seen before.

Vaneyes links below were of particular interest so deserve revisiting

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/10/arts/music/vinyl-records-are-making-a-comeback.html?_r=1& & http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/may/25/pete-hutchison-interview-new-vinyl-recording

and the chart below must say something


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## Svelte Silhouette

Head_case said:


> It would be convenient if it was down to psychology.....perhaps this is something transmissible, since everyone who demos the Debussy & Ravel string quartets on vinyl LP vs CD in my apartment, or the Suzanne Vega 'Tom's Diner' remixes on vinyl LP vs CD, all resoundingly agree that the vinyl LP versions are better. Only one friend of mine owns a vinyl LP player: the rest were sceptics, now silenced. They're happy with the sound quality of CD playing...but the engagement with the vinyl LP playing....that is something which is not imaginary. It's not about hearing just sounds; the music is a complete Gestalt unto itself, and this has to be grasped, through engagement. Kudos to anyone who can do it on a tinny iPod speaker.
> 
> Realistically though, it doesn't cost a lot to get the sound quality out of a vinyl LP player.
> 
> Go listen to one today! Then go listen to one every day :lol:





Head_case said:


> When I visit friends and acquaintances, most of them have upgraded....from digital format to other digital format...not just once, but several times. From CD to DVD, or SACD, to MP3 player, to multi-media, to streaming....argh. After all that, you'd think the sound quality was better (no ... not..!) but it is more technologically advanced.


At last the truth is out and I'm not barking mad up a wrong tree alone as there seem to be a whole kennel full of us :tiphat:


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## Svelte Silhouette

This thread and another on vinyl had me thinking about the whole conversion thing vis-a-vis my ears now rather than a few years ago so I got an LP of mine which I've a CD of but also got a folkie LP of wifie's I bought her which she later got a CD of. I've a proper CD copier connected optically to my amplifier for making in-car duplicates and have a DVD-CD writer in my PC. I decided I'd make copies using both and see if she and I could still tell the difference between source and copy. She plays the piano but has little interest in hifi where I play nothing other than the stereo so that's where we hail from musically.

Wifie was cooking up a storm as we're having dinner guests who weren't due to arrive for a couple of hours so I connected my PC to the amplifier and played the first side of each LP and digitised them one at 16/44 and the other at 20/48. Next I used a single track from wifie's CD to get 192, 256 and 320 MP3 samplings for interest. After that I used the proper CD copier to digitise the LP sides again at 16/44 and 20/48 since it saved me from helping in the kitchen where things can get quite heated sometimes. I had a shower which de-focused me and have just listened to the MP3s which did sound different but I knew which was which so that's an unfair test and I'll do a proper blind one of everything with wifie and some friends tomorrow so watch this space.


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## bigshot

What is "a proper CD copier"?
How are you level matching?
What MP3 codec did you use?
What is the point?


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> What is "a proper CD copier"?
> How are you level matching?
> What MP3 codec did you use?
> What is the point?


I'm surprised you don't know what a proper CD copier is but I have a Pioneer PDR-509 and it was the best in it's day though got replaced by a 609 before the market dropped away with people preferring stupidly to use their crappy PC drives instead as they were a cheap solution. I use an optical link from it to my amplifier and a coaxial link to my main CD transport which are way better than rubbishy internal PC wiring.

As you don't know about proper CD copiers it seems pointless answering the other questions but I used EAC and LAME and didn't need to level match as I was comparing MP3s only with other MP3s. The point was purely for my own interest since someone had said that no-one could tell the difference between 256 and 320 which seems on the face of it to be rubbish and was when I last did such a test in a blind controlled environment.

I'd explain more but have to go.


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## bigshot

That recorder is over a decade old. Does it even have a 24 bit DAC? That isn't the best way to digitize.

It's also worth noting that both the Shaw Firebird and Hissing of Summer Lawns have been remastered. Your CDs appear to be even older than your recorder.

But I still don't see what the point is of comparing an LP to a CD with completely different mastering.

Go on with your puppet show though. Don't let me interrupt your improv.


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> That recorder is over a decade old. Does it even have a 24 bit DAC? That isn't the best way to digitize.
> 
> It's also worth noting that both the Shaw Firebird and Hissing of Summer Lawns have been remastered. Your CDs appear to be even older than your recorder.
> 
> But I still don't see what the point is of comparing an LP to a CD with completely different mastering.
> 
> Go on with your puppet show though. Don't let me interrupt your improv.


I'll answer properly later but you missed the point as the MP3s were done on the PC drive which is less than a year old.

Your point was that a DIY digitisation would sound better than the LP and my interest is in whether or not that's possible and how whatever I've got compares to an actual CD.

I don't see what your beef is with this.


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## bigshot

I said that a decent digitization of an LP would sound identical, not better. A CD copier that is over 10 years old isn't a decent digitization device. Sorry to let you down like that.

The LP and the CD are two completely different masterings. Comparing them is pointless. You wouldn't be comparing formats, you'd be comparing mastering jobs.


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> I said that a decent digitization of an LP would sound identical, not better. A CD copier that is over 10 years old isn't a decent digitization device. Sorry to let you down like that.


I was in a rush with my last post as the first of our guests' car's had just arrived outside my window but meant "same as" rather than "better". Point taken regarding the old 509 which is why I used the PC which has a good drive in it and a hi-end sound card etc. enabling direct wired connection to my stereo. Usage of the 509 was just for interest too like my early-evening selfie MP3 test since PC drives used to be far worse soundwise but my latest probably isn't though I've never compared recordings in many years as I only do them for the car.



bigshot said:


> The LP and the CD are two completely different masterings. Comparing them is pointless. You wouldn't be comparing formats, you'd be comparing mastering jobs.


I said "I decided I'd make copies using both and see if she and I could still tell the difference between source and copy" but you missed the point again. I'm only intending comparing my copies to the replayed source but also wanted to see how proper CD versions we have compare out of interest. The mastering doesn't really matter as if the LP sounds better than my latest copies and the CD versions we've got then that must say something. I appreciate a newer remaster may sound better than our CD versions but that doesn't affect whether or not my digitised versions sound as good as the original source on replay or not does it?

You seem to be getting really het up about this test and finding all kinds of ways to rubbish it before it's even happened as so far all I've done is unfairly compare some MP3s made from the original dated CD to see whether or not 192, 256 and 320 sound different or not and admitted I thought they did but that the test had neither been blind nor fair since I knew which was which and am bound to be biased as a result.

Re-reading a reference "Does it even have a 24 bit DAC?" I noticed I'd copy and pasted "at 16/44 and the other at 20/48" and meant to amend this as "at 16/44" for the 509 copy as it only does 16/44, downscales 20/48 to 16/44 and won't even read 24/96 at all but that doesn't matter for my test which was fairly straightforward really. Irritatingly it uses the more expensive CD-r audio discs too but it was the best in it's day and I cheat using it now by using a CD-rw audio and then copying that on my PC as it's only for car copies and I figured that'd give a better result but tomorrow will tell. More haste less speed so apologies for the misquote, misprint and any misunderstandings down to me.

I think that covers all points raised but if not then apologies as is late and I'm tred.


----------



## Don Fatale

RudyKens, I hope you're not put off by the sniping comments from the aptly named bigshot. 

I'm interested to know how it all goes with these various renditions.


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## Svelte Silhouette

I was going to do an update last night but it got too late so I decided on doing it later today though one of our guests called at lunchtime to say he was going to get a Project Debut USB turntable having realised there must be a lot of life left in his old vinyl following the test. He wanted something decent to play it on at home and an easy way to listen to what he was missing in the car “all in one box” and had spent the lunchtime looking at reviews and settled on this over a Teac CDRW890 standalone copier and separate turntable or an Audio Technica AT LP120. I said I’d prefer the standalone option with a better turntable connected but he simply wants a future proof decent quality turntable with fringe benefits rather than a copier per se as he isn’t going to be spending hundreds of hours real-time copying. The turntable is also only £25 dearer than a reasonable Rega so my preference would have almost doubled the outlay since he had long since gotten rid of his old one. 

The unit will be connected to his stereo and MAC and has a good internal phono pre-amp so it can go directly into an amplifier which hasn’t got a turntable input. There is entirely separate circuitry for the RCA and USB options too unlike with the Audio Technica which has a switch between the two to compromise things. My friend also didn’t like the pretentious lookingness of the Audio Technica which is cloned not terribly well from a renowned Technics DJ turntable and he’d read that most of it’s apparent weight wasn’t so much solid build as a 6 or 7Kg slab of metal screwed inside the plastic base making the Project’s 6Kg less flimsy than it sounds when compared to the Audio Technica’s 10 or 11kg.

Since my 509 is a bit long in the tooth I am now thinking about getting the Teac myself having done a bit of research around my friend’s intended purchase but it also only does 16/44 and although 10 years newer I’d have to be sold on it being better so am off to my local store this evening to demo my 509 against their Teac along with another pair of ears that have no vested interest in my decision ie. not wifie!


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> Go on with your puppet show though. Don't let me interrupt your improv.


I resent those I invite to test something being considered as puppets as all of my friends make their own decisions without being bamboozled by me or any skullduggery.

Internet rubbish and other reviews quoted are not my bag as I've no interest in using either science or pseudo-science to hammer home any views I hold. My views are mine and if others agree fine and if they don't then equally fine as it's a free world. If I can help anyone then I will but without bludgeoning them with any of my own bias.

Actually, I resent your inference and it's unnecessariness.


----------



## Svelte Silhouette

Alexander said:


> RudyKens, I hope you're not put off by the sniping comments from the aptly named bigshot.
> 
> I'm interested to know how it all goes with these various renditions.


Since my friend's Project USB turntable will now apparently be arriving next day delivery ie. tomorrow I'll be taking my 2 LPs we're now all familiar with to do a retest of sorts on Saturday evening at his gaff with most of yesterday's audience ie. those not on duty as it should be a breeze getting them copied using this unit. I'll also be taking my own pickup cartridge to make the test more like a test of just this unit since the effect my cartridge had on what we heard on my turntable and in the copies made using it as a source will be similar on his new unit. We're not comparing turntables though as mine is more expensive and just a record spinner but the test should show whether a thing dedicated to the task makes a better stab at it or not particularly when coming from a respected turntable manufacturer. If I get a Teac then I'll be taking that on Saturday too for yet another comparison.

So, if anyone else is interested then watch this space.


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## Vaneyes

I was considering a Last Word, when I thought I detected bigshot now giving LPs more credit for sound. But thought better of it. 

No matter, since this is the Last Word for now.


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## Svelte Silhouette

RudyKens said:


> I resent those I invite to test something being considered as puppets as all of my friends make their own decisions without being bamboozled by me or any skullduggery.
> 
> Internet rubbish and other reviews quoted are not my bag as I've no interest in using either science or pseudo-science to hammer home any views I hold. My views are mine and if others agree fine and if they don't then equally fine as it's a free world. If I can help anyone then I will but without bludgeoning them with any of my own bias.
> 
> Actually, I resent your inference and it's unnecessariness.


Go Rudy go 

This all sounds like the cue for a blog though


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## Svelte Silhouette

Vaneyes said:


> I was considering a Last Word, when I thought I detected bigshot now giving LPs more credit for sound. But thought better of it.
> 
> No matter, since this is the Last Word for now.


I thought there were 7 but Bigshot seems to be firing on all 6 so guess you've got the 7th and like the links resurrected at post 93.

Gimme back my bullets :lol:


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## Svelte Silhouette

Alexander said:


> RudyKens, I hope you're not put off by the sniping comments from the aptly named bigshot.
> 
> I'm interested to know how it all goes with these various renditions.


I'm interested too so apologies for sounding flippant earlier and agree that we all should ignore uncalled for ill-considered sniping.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Back from the fray 

Well, my Teac vs. 509 comparison was interesting. I did a recording on each using Barenboim’s recent Elgar 2nd then played it back on each but also used the same track I’d used for the previous evening’s MP3 comparisons out of interest. I’d thought about asking the shop to set up a turntable too but didn’t want to push it and knew that if I could tell a difference between copies of a recent DDD CD on each that’d be good enough for me to part with my cash. 

The funny thing was that the recordings sounded pretty similar to us both when played through my 509 but the Teac’s recordings sounded slightly better on the Teac. It appeared that there was less difference in the recording between them than in the replay but I’ve taken my copy disc home to get a better idea on my main CD player with a series of passes driven by wifie outside the confines of a shop demonstration room. 

Following on from this I may or may not be getting a Teac tomorrow as it’s selling at a reduced price of £230 and once they’re gone they’re probably gone forever now as things like Ion’s “all in one” sold by the same shop for £70 are what people are apparently buying if not using their fast-reading fast-writing PC drives to fast-record what has been temporarily stored on the Hard Drive. This fast-read fast-write idea must mean that there is more likely to be playback loss if 52x rather than real-time is the read speed and compounded if 52x rather than real-time is the write speed before we even consider using a single drive with intermediate Hard Drive temporary store between reading and writing. I recall half-speed mastering of LP records in the 70s and 80s and that had to be being done for some good reason didn’t it.

Either way there will be some testing of something on Saturday which I expect to reinforce what almost all were agreed on last night but the Project test will be most interesting for me.


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## bigshot

Write speeds on optical burners are usually most dependable at the fastest rated write speed. That is what the drives are optimized for and what the manufacturer expects them to be operated at. Slower speeds are mostly for older media that wasn't rated for high speed burning. But it's unlikely anyone would come across old stock of that any more.

All of the difference in sound quality will occur when the analog sound is converted to digital. That's the point where quality matters. Digital to digital has no generation loss, it should be a bit for bit identical copy, unless one or both of the burners/players isn't operating at spec. Whenever you copy something important, you should always verify the burn if you are concerned about the dependability of the burner.


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> Write speeds on optical burners are usually most dependable at the fastest rated write speed. That is what the drives are optimized for and what the manufacturer expects them to be operated at.
> 
> Digital to digital has no generation loss, it should be a bit for bit identical copy, unless one or both of the burners/players isn't operating at spec.
> 
> Whenever you copy something important, you should always verify the burn if you are concerned about the dependability of the burner.


I looked at tests of various burners and media ahead of getting my latest drives for the home server. They usually record with fewer errors at a speed less than the maximum but higher than the minimum for a particular recorder. These kind of tests will still be on the web somewhere. Different brands of DVD and CDR/RW media also give different results so a bit of experimentation may be called for. Dual-Layer DVDs are more likely to be a bit tetchier at maximum speed but 'overburning' will often work fine for CD.

Agreed on verifying the burns though but not on the "CD to CD on my PC produces a perfect copy" even with that and I've no idea why nor do I care. As regards the analogue to digital conversion I'd leave that to the pros but even they often didn't get that right in the early days and I recall someone mentioning a Rosenkavalier remasterered in the late 90s then redone just 4 years later so it seems that further updating of older recordings will continue until we stop buying the updates.

I slightly rethought my "Agreed on verifying" after writing it above though since what is being verified in a single disc drive PC is that what was stored on the hard disc between read and write stages so if the read loses something then a verified OK will only mean that the write matched the intermediate version.

Either way, this isn't really relevant to the vinyl resurgence discussion and how vinyl compares with a home-made CD of it is it though?


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## Svelte Silhouette

Wow, u vinylheads :tiphat:

I watch tennis on a big flat screen and listen 2music on little silver disc I can use at home or in the car. 

I can use my phone for both if I have2 and it does photos and u can text and access the internet from it.

Most of my CDs r bound 2've bn digital recorded so logically'll sound more accurate on a digital player.

The best analogue recordings r likely remastered well enuff by now as the 1s most want 2 hear r saleable.

I understand digital and vinyl distortion and c y some might prefer warmer sound but even if remastering might not sonically better an original convenience + reduced surface noise'd offset any vinyl gains4me.

My dad's different but without his vinyl hoard I wonder if he'd still have a foot firmly in both camps.

I don’t live in a perfect world and often use the nearby convenience store.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Alexander said:


> RudyKens, I hope you're not put off by the sniping comments from the aptly named bigshot.
> 
> I'm interested to know how it all goes with these various renditions.


I'm not interested in the results cos I've no vinyl and don't plan on getting any but 4 those who've an unused store of the stuff maybe the results might just cause 'em to get it out or ditch it.

Agreed that no-one should b put of by anyone just mouthing off.

On that note I'm outta here then off 4 the w/e so have fun fantastic with the drastic plastic.


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## Ukko

Friendly-geezerly suggestion for _bigsho_t *and* _Haut_: Grant our friends their harmless delusions - and pseudo-delusions. Amused wonderment can flow in either direction, because somehow both directions are downhill.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Ukko said:


> Friendly-geezerly suggestion for _bigsho_t *and* _Haut_: Grant our friends their harmless delusions - and pseudo-delusions. Amused wonderment can flow in either direction, because somehow both directions are downhill.


Point taken and always in agreement with no-one browbeating anyone which is why I was irritated when Rudy was taken to task over his reasoned but not exactly correct assumption that "This fast-read fast-write idea must mean that there is more likely to be playback loss if 52x rather than real-time is the read speed and compounded if 52x rather than real-time is the write speed before we even consider using a single drive with intermediate Hard Drive temporary store between reading and writing".

Two wrongs don't make a right though and the half-truth response that "Write speeds on optical burners are usually most dependable at the fastest rated write speed. That is what the drives are optimized for and what the manufacturer expects them to be operated at" isn't correct either so was another unnecessary snipe and irrelevant to the thread topic as well.

I'm fine with letting everyone have their delusions, after all I have my own and know it's all downhill for me from here :tiphat:

Little in life is black or white and someone might see my half-full glass as half-empty but I'm an eternal optimist


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## Svelte Silhouette

bigshot said:


> That recorder is over a decade old. Does it even have a 24 bit DAC? That isn't the best way to digitize.
> 
> It's also worth noting that both the Shaw Firebird and Hissing of Summer Lawns have been remastered. Your CDs appear to be even older than your recorder.
> 
> But I still don't see what the point is of comparing an LP to a CD with completely different mastering.
> 
> Go on with your puppet show though. Don't let me interrupt your improv.


Give a man a fish and feed him for a day.

Give him a fishing rod and feed him for life.

Give a dog a bone and you've just got a dog who won't let go without biting you.

Why rubbish someone else's stuff and opinions, why?


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## Svelte Silhouette

Apologies as I seem to have caused a slight thread fraying again with a throwaway comment about CD drive speeds.

I am no tech-head if that's the right word but wifie had been playing a half-speed mastered LP as below which is what had got me thinking about speed. Also the Teac I heard yesterday and my 509 record and playback in real-time but I'm sure their manufacturers could have made them do either or both much faster and even at varying speeds if they'd wanted to for little or no extra cost.









Anyway we've already established in our house that vinyl plays better than any DIY digitisation of it and also better than older CD masterings of the same but as this whole thing could become disagreeable it's probably best left at that since it seems that some in here apparently just like disagreeing and finding fault.


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## Ukko

I wonder about the process of half speed mastering. An analog tape played at half speed, output to a master being cut at half speed? Surely not a digital tape? Do the benefits in the cutting actually outweigh the drawbacks of the analog tape?

As Tom Deacon would say: "Hmm".


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## Svelte Silhouette

Ukko said:


> I wonder about the process of half speed mastering. An analog tape played at half speed, output to a master being cut at half speed? Surely not a digital tape? Do the benefits in the cutting actually outweigh the drawbacks of the analog tape?
> 
> As Tom Deacon would say: "Hmm".


Search me. It will be an analogue recording though I think as it's from 1979 and most of my early 80s digital recording classical LP records have DIGITAL written in big letters at the top or in a corner as a magical selling point so I'd expect pop ones did the same though am not exactly familiar with wifie's stack.

On re-checking, my Telarc Firebird LP record dated from 1978 so the pop disc could have been digital but doesn't say anywhere so I still suspect not.

I remember that the faster open-reel tape ran the better the recording but I suppose that's because a lot more footage was used per second as this seems reasonable but maybe in the disc cutting process the slowing down reduces wobble distortion or something. I don't know whether the tape would be played back at half-speed or not and am a bit out of my depth there since I only ever recorded to cassette but I'm not that interested in this as all I care about is the sound. This whole line could just lead to what I think reasonable getting rubbished by Bigshot again though so I think this'll be my swan song.

Wifie doesn't have another version of the half-speed mastered LP record or even a CD one so I've no comparison so can't say whether it's better than the ordinary disc or not though assume so but hope this won't open a whole new can of poo.

I agree with Tom whoever he is as agreement avoids http://www.talkclassical.com/32087-hot-fi.html and maybe I shouldn't have ever mentioned half-speed or any speed anything to avoid fault-finders finding fault without adding value to the thread or anything else.


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## Ukko

Here is the link to the not-so-informative wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fidelity_Sound_Lab

Seems like there is a need to control the excursions of the cutting head, so as not to make playback at full speed physics-defying. Maybe not?


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## Svelte Silhouette

Ukko said:


> Here is the link to the not-so-informative wiki article:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Fidelity_Sound_Lab
> 
> Seems like there is a need to control the excursions of the cutting head, so as not to make playback at full speed physics-defying. Maybe not?


The article appears to have multiple issues according to it's headline not unlike some digital remasters :lol:

Thanks though as it was interesting and makes some sense now since the half-speed cut avoids the wobble and the half-speed tape allows all that footage's goodness to be sampled slowly. If this is half-baked I'm sure I'll get rubbished again but I can blame you for pointing me to the article :angel:


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## Ukko

Not clear what that particular wobble you mention is, but no matter. 

The half speed tape playback raises questions for me too - jeez I'm full of them - because it changes the hiss frequencies and 'elongates' whatever wow and flutter is in there.

I guess what I'm leading up to is that the half speed process mitigates the cutting head excursion-momentum issue, but otherwise seems to just swap one set of technical procedures for another set, a set that the engineers had to work out all over again. I wonder if the actual audible _improvement_ from the process was really JVC's vinyl compound.

I wonder - I wonder... sort of a broken record, eh?


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## Svelte Silhouette

Agreed but I'm going to wonder less and simply enjoy my vinyl and silver spinners as all this wondering just leads to a new set of issues to wonder over.

Besides any forum discussion could just lead to someone dumbing us bewildered inquisitive souls down.

If you break a record that can be good or sad but a stuck record is always worse


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## Svelte Silhouette

Ukko said:


> Not clear what that particular wobble you mention is, but no matter.
> 
> The half speed tape playback raises questions for me too - jeez I'm full of them - because it changes the hiss frequencies and 'elongates' whatever wow and flutter is in there.
> 
> I guess what I'm leading up to is that the half speed process mitigates the cutting head excursion-momentum issue, but otherwise seems to just swap one set of technical procedures for another set, a set that the engineers had to work out all over again. I wonder if the actual audible improvement from the process was really JVC's vinyl compound.
> 
> I wonder - I wonder... sort of a broken record, eh?


Wow I that reminds me I must have a flutter on the gee gees most of whom I back frequently wobble having only run at half-speed. After that I can hopefully elongate something and break some records with any birds who don't hiss at me :lol:


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## Ukko

PoisonIV said:


> Wow I that reminds me I must have a flutter on the gee gees most of whom I back frequently wobble having only run at half-speed. After that I can hopefully elongate something and break some records with any birds who don't hiss at me :lol:


The above appears to be a non-classical, nontechnical, incomprehensible communication. [Non-communication?]


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## Svelte Silhouette

PoisonIV said:


> Wow I that reminds me I must have a flutter on the gee gees most of whom I back frequently wobble having only run at half-speed. After that I can hopefully elongate something and break some records with any birds who don't hiss at me :lol:


This sounds like you're poking fun at what you perceive as 'techno-speak' and I'm hoping 'how I read it' is so since poking fun at those who use such 'techno-speak' wouldn't be fair at all (and would be reportable as an 'infringement of site Terms and Conditions).

The recording and mastering process had, and still 'to this day' has, a lot of complexities with various things tried to improve the end result. HSM (Half-Speed Mastering) and Supercut ('coined' by Nimbus records for their same process) recording was one such process along with things such as 'virgin vinyl' usage (in preference to re-use of 'mulched-up' unsold 'retailer returns' which would then contain impurities that would increase static etc in a finalised product using such recycled material). The slowing down and speeding up of media in use (aka 'Wow and Flutter') is irrelevant for digital recordings played back on CD BUT was (and still remains) of huge significance for any recordings played back on any kind of tape and/or vinyl (even where such vinyl had been recorded on digital tape). Noise reduction systems such as Dolby (A, B, C and HX-Pro) along with DBX (using a compander/expander idea) and JVC's ANRS/SANRS (Automatic Noise Reduction System/Super...) aimed to reduce tape hiss BUT in removing the hiss, invariably, had some effect on the top-end (higher frequencies) so tape users (in the home) sometimes resorted to faster speeds instead of compromise (my Revox B77 ran at 7.5 and 15 ips) and even using the whole tape width rather than only half (as with Phillips' originated Compact Cassette which ran at 1 7/8 ips albeit though some hi-end machines also offered 3 3/4 ips).


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## Svelte Silhouette

No offence intended to anyone Svelte and I think Ukko saw the humour but no offence intended to anyone


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## Ukko

PoisonIV said:


> No offence intended to anyone Svelte and I think Ukko saw the humour but no offence intended to anyone




I recognized an _attempt_ at humor.

There is nothing 'technospeak' about wow and flutter. The words have not been borrowed to mean something different in jargon than they mean in plain speech. There is plenty of jargon in and around the music reproduction processes though, from the 'techno' end to the 'philiac' end. For the Pure Of Heart, none of it is meant to create Miraculous Mysteries. Jargon develops to enable meanings to be expressed that don't take several sentences to get across. Sometimes a tech or a phile uses his carefully-defined-but-special jargon to attempt knowledge transfer to someone who hasn't absorbed those definitions. Might as well be using Klingon, eh?


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## Svelte Silhouette

This sits partly in current listening as I'm starting the day with Gesualdo on CD then having a blooming Bohmian Beethoven Bank Holiday Monday but intend closing it out with the Goldmark on CD. As 8 of my 10 discs today are LP records and not actually currently being listened to I'm waving the vinyl flag on this thread instead :tiphat:


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## Svelte Silhouette

I’ve been away a week but sadly no-one has been vinyl hugging in my absence


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## RobertaellaClapp

My husband left me his LP collection of 1200. Having difficulty finding anyone who wants to buy it. 
Any suggestions??? I'm in Florida.


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## Morimur

RobertaellaClapp said:


> My husband left me his LP collection of 1200. Having difficulty finding anyone who wants to buy it.
> Any suggestions??? I'm in Florida.


Sell it to highest bidder on ebay.


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## ptr

RobertaellaClapp said:


> My husband left me his LP collection of 1200. Having difficulty finding anyone who wants to buy it.
> Any suggestions??? I'm in Florida.


Take a look here!<< Click link!

/ptr


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## Antiquarian

Some Vinyl Love:
I am listening through The Seraphim Guide to Renaissance Music (Syntagma Musicum of Amsterdam - Kees Otten, dir. SIC-6052), It's a three disc set with works by Johann Walther, Josquin des Prez, and Jan Sweelinck among others.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Antiquarian said:


> Some Vinyl Love:
> I am listening through The Seraphim Guide to Renaissance Music (Syntagma Musicum of Amsterdam - Kees Otten, dir. SIC-6052), It's a three disc set with works by Johann Walther, Josquin des Prez, and Jan Sweelinck among others.


If you listen to anymore vinyl you could post it in http://www.talkclassical.com/32532-current-listening-vinyl-2.html to encourage my thread.

My today's LP record listening is Tortellier's highly recommendable Beethoven cello sonatas boxed set on EMI.


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## Antiquarian

O.K. Will do, RudyKens.


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## Svelte Silhouette

Thanks Antiquarian.

Today has been a mainly CD day for me but Handel's Alexander's Feast conducted by Ledger is about to be plattered.


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