# J.S. Bach - Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor



## tdc

This thread is about all things related to Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor.

I have a question in regards to the different approaches to this piece in terms of organ sonorities and also HIP. When I first was getting into classical music I bought a Bach compilation CD and found an excellent version of this piece, I ripped it onto my hard drive and found my iTunes labelled the performer as Ton Koopman. Years ago on another thread somewhere on this site, I praised Koopman's performance based on this recording and now have recently discovered (annoyingly) that the iTunes label was wrong, so I am officially retracting my Ton Koopman recommendation. For the record this is not because I think he is a poor performer but because I don't enjoy the sound of the organ he is using as much. He also uses less variety in registers, I notice someone in the youtube comments said he uses less because it is the HIP approach. Well if that is the case then this is an example where I prefer a non-HIP approach! Anyone know more on this subject?

My favorite version is actually by *Lionel Rogg*:





Notice the smooth tone of the organ...

Also in this (my second favorite version) by E. Power Biggs:





Beautiful!

Compare that to what I find to be an overly brassy and abrasive sound here in one of Koopman's versions:





That is just my opinion anyway, what version(s) do you prefer?


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## Triplets

My first exposure to this piece was an lp of E. Power Biggs playing in the Leipzig St Thomas Church called "E. Power Biggs plays Bach at the Thomaskirche". I loved it but never obtained that performance digitally. My CD is Marie-Claire Alain, on the Erato label


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## classical yorkist

I love Bach's organ works but i couldn't tell a good performance from a bad one I'm sure.


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## Marc

tdc said:


> This thread is about all things related to Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor.
> 
> I have a question in regards to the different approaches to this piece in terms of organ sonorities and also HIP. When I first was getting into classical music I bought a Bach compilation CD and found an excellent version of this piece, I ripped it onto my hard drive and found my iTunes labelled the performer as Ton Koopman. Years ago on another thread somewhere on this site, I praised Koopman's performance based on this recording and now have recently discovered (annoyingly) that the iTunes label was wrong, so I am officially retracting my Ton Koopman recommendation. For the record this is not because I think he is a poor performer but because I don't enjoy the sound of the organ he is using as much. He also uses less variety in registers, I notice someone in the youtube comments said he uses less because it is the HIP approach. Well if that is the case then this is an example where I prefer a non-HIP approach! Anyone know more on this subject?
> 
> My favorite version is actually by *Lionel Rogg*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the smooth tone of the organ...
> 
> Also in this (my second favorite version) by E. Power Biggs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful!
> 
> Compare that to what I find to be an overly brassy and abrasive sound here in one of Koopman's versions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just my opinion anyway, what version(s) do you prefer?


Rogg, Power Biggs, Koopman: I like them all.
The first 2 performances I have on CD, and I've got three (I think) Koopman recordings with BWV 582. This live performance is very impressive IMHO. Funny enough, I find the organ not abrasive at all. It sounds rather 'slick' to me.

I like a slowly building approach (I always call it the 'Bolero' approach ), but I slightly prefer the 'HIP'-approach, which is organo pleno (almost) all the way. I experience this as a 'perpetuum mobile' and it brings me in a blissful rust.
I appreciate slow Passacaglia's, but I also like the faster ones, as long as the organist doesn't go 'running after him/herself. The latter thing sometimes happens at live concerts. I once heard Koopman trying to play the piece even faster as in the given link, and it didn't work out well.

Only Rübsam on Naxos (almost 20 minutes) is far too slow for me.


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## Mandryka

tdc said:


> This thread is about all things related to Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor.
> 
> I have a question in regards to the different approaches to this piece in terms of organ sonorities and also HIP. When I first was getting into classical music I bought a Bach compilation CD and found an excellent version of this piece, I ripped it onto my hard drive and found my iTunes labelled the performer as Ton Koopman. Years ago on another thread somewhere on this site, I praised Koopman's performance based on this recording and now have recently discovered (annoyingly) that the iTunes label was wrong, so I am officially retracting my Ton Koopman recommendation. For the record this is not because I think he is a poor performer but because I don't enjoy the sound of the organ he is using as much. He also uses less variety in registers, I notice someone in the youtube comments said he uses less because it is the HIP approach. Well if that is the case then this is an example where I prefer a non-HIP approach! Anyone know more on this subject?
> 
> My favorite version is actually by *Lionel Rogg*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the smooth tone of the organ...
> 
> Also in this (my second favorite version) by E. Power Biggs:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful!
> 
> Compare that to what I find to be an overly brassy and abrasive sound here in one of Koopman's versions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is just my opinion anyway, what version(s) do you prefer?


The difference between Rogg and Biggs on the one hand, and Koopman on the other, is a radical one to do with their conception of the passacaglia. The former start of delicately and build up a climax. The latter is not delicate at the start at all. I like both, and I like Koopman very much, maybe most of all.

Having said that I like Koopman more on his Novalis recording at Ottobeuren than the one you found on YouTube, which is from his complete set for Teldec where he uses the organ at Maassluis.

For the delicate start approach, one recording I prefer to Rogg's and Briggs's is by William Porter, on the Fritz organ in Tacoma, not least because of some beautifully judged expressive rubato and ornamentation. But Koopman's at Ottobeuren is more my cup of tea.









Rogg, and Koopman all use old organs if I remember correctly. As far as style of play goes, I don't know enough about the music to comment whether the Koopman approach to the passacaglia is more or less informed than the Porter/Biggs/Rogg one.



Marc said:


> Only Rübsam on Naxos (almost 20 minutes) is far too slow for me.


Actually no, scrap my comments above, Rubsam's Naxos is my favourite, I think he really reveals the inner voices. It's noble at that speed with all that full organ. Slow food is good, slow sex is good, slow passacaglia is good.


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## Marc

Mandryka said:


> The difference between Rogg and Biggs on the one hand, and Koopman on the other, is a radical one to do with their conception of the passacaglia. The former start of delicately and build up a climax. The latter is not delicate at the start at all. I like both, and I like Koopman very much, maybe most of all.
> 
> Having said that I like Koopman more on his Novalis recording at Ottobeuren than the one you found on YouTube, which is from his complete set for Teldec where he uses the organ at Maassluis.
> 
> For the delicate start approach, one recording I prefer to Rogg's and Briggs's is by William Porter, on the Fritz organ in Tacoma, not least because of some beautifully judged expressive rubato and ornamentation. But Koopman's at Ottobeuren is more my cup of tea.
> 
> View attachment 97970
> 
> 
> Rogg, Biggs and Koopman all use old organs if I remember correctly. As far as style of play goes, I don't know enough about the music to comment whether the Koopman approach to the passacaglia is more or less informed than the Porter/Biggs/Rogg one.


I'm not even sure if I have (heard) that Porter BWV 582, but I'm convinced it's a good advice. William Porter is a great musician and organist.
Another 'Bolero' recording I like is Cor Ardesch on the Silbermann in the Freiberger Dom, but... it's OOP I'm afraid.
About 'informed' or not: AFAIK, in some cases the preamble 'organo pleno' can be found in some older copies of the piece, up to the early 19th century (Mendelssohn). After that, more and more copies with build-up registration advices were printed. Because of that, many scholars tend to think that the 'build-up' approach is more romantic.


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## Marc

Mandryka said:


> [...]
> Actually no, scrap my comments above, Rubsam's Naxos is my favourite, I think he really reveals the inner voices.
> 
> Slow food is good, slow sex is good, slow passacaglia is good.


:lol:

Have you ever tried fast sex?
Man, it's good.

I always have my best sex on fast and furious Koopman.
I let the Dudley Moore's of this world have the Bolero.


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## premont

Marc said:


> Rogg, Power Biggs, Koopman: I like them all.
> and I've got three (I think) Koopman recordings with BWV 582.


Didn't he do four "studio" recordings until now?


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## Marc

premont said:


> Didn't he do four "studio" recordings until now?


Yes, there is a fourth recording of BWV 582 by Koopman on the Müller-organ in Leeuwarden (NL), which, AFAIK, was only issued as a DVD-audio. I don't have that one.


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## hpowders

The Bach Project, Todd Fickley, Schnitger Organ (1721) St. Michaelskerk/Zwolle, The Netherlands.

A monumental instrumental!!! :clap:


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## Marc

hpowders said:


> View attachment 98054
> 
> 
> The Bach Project, Todd Fickley, Schnitger Organ (1721) St. Michaelskerk/Zwolle, The Netherlands.
> 
> A monumental instrumental!!! :clap:


Dunno this one, thanks for the mention; the instrument is great.
I saw he picked the Marcussen of Rotterdam's Laurenskerk for his 2nd volume. Pity. There are dozens of better suited instruments available in the Netherlands... just my tuppence worth of course.


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## Guest

I prefer it on the piano. Here is Igor Zhukov playing his transcription:






And Krystian Zimerman playing Tausig's (I think) transcription.


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## premont

Marc said:


> Yes, there is a fourth recording of BWV 582 by Koopman on the Müller-organ in Leeuwarden (NL), which, AFAIK, was only issued as a DVD-audio. I don't have that one.


That I do not know. I was thinking of this:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Challenge+Classics/CC72264


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## premont

hpowders said:


> View attachment 98054
> 
> 
> The Bach Project, Todd Fickley, Schnitger Organ (1721) St. Michaelskerk/Zwolle, The Netherlands.
> 
> A monumental instrumental!!! :clap:


You probably know, that this is a trick recording made by digital sampling of the sounds of the organ and playing them from an electronic keyboard (Hauptwerk software). Unfortunately it sounds somewhat unnatural in these ears.


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## Marc

premont said:


> That I do not know. I was thinking of this:
> 
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Challenge+Classics/CC72264


Which makes it five. 



premont said:


> You probably know, that this is a trick recording made by digital sampling of the sounds of the organ and playing them from an electronic keyboard (Hauptwerk software). Unfortunately it sounds somewhat unnatural in these ears.


Oops, I didn't know that.
It might be fun to explore, but I'll postpone any serious listening until the central library has it. (Which isn't the case, at the moment.)


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## Mandryka

I listened to Luc Beausejour playing it on a harpsichord, and Fretwork on a little viol consort, and Angela Hewitt on Steinway, and The Jacques Loussier Trio. I must say I think this is best on organ, this is a case where Bach knew what he was talking about when he said he wanted it on full organ.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> I listened to Luc Beausejour playing it on a harpsichord, and Fretwork on a little viol consort, and Angela Hewitt on Steinway, and The Jacques Loussier Trio. I must say I think this is best on organ, this is a case where Bach knew what he was talking about when he said he wanted it on full organ.


Beausejour himself has released this fine organo pleno version on youtube, unfortunately played upon the Beckerath organ in Montreal (the organ Lagacé uses for his Bach integral).


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## Jerry

Quite probably my favourite piece of music.

Top of the (long) list for me is a heretical choice, I am sure - Leopold Stokowski conducting the Czech Phil in his own transcription on Decca.
Unbelievably, ecstatically wonderful to my ears.






I love it on the organ as well - Rogg, Richter, Lehotka, Biggs ....


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> I listened to Luc Beausejour playing it on a harpsichord, and Fretwork on a little viol consort, and Angela Hewitt on Steinway, and The Jacques Loussier Trio. I must say I think this is best on organ, this is a case where Bach knew what he was talking about when he said he wanted it on full organ.


Yes, the slow build up to climax, full organ. I like the way you think.


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## KenOC

Here's a fine version by the great organist E. Power Biggs on a pedal harpsichord. As they say, a different kettle of fish.


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## KenOC

And...a noble reading for organ and military band!


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Here's a fine version by the great organist E. Power Biggs on a pedal harpsichord. As they say, a different kettle of fish.


Never heard that before, thanks.

What else did Biggs do on this harpsichord besides the Bach Passacaglia and the Bach trio sonatas? You should get his recording of the trio sonatas, I know you well enough to know it's your sort of thing.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Never heard that before, thanks.
> 
> What else did Biggs do on this harpsichord besides the Bach Passacaglia and the Bach trio sonatas? You should get his recording of the trio sonatas, I know you well enough to know it's your sort of thing.


He got around 1970 an LP released containing the passacaglia, the toccata BWV 565 and two of the concerto transcriptions. I do not know if it made it to CD, but I have my own digitization of it, if I can find it.


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