# Celibidache: Death and Transfiguration



## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Being a Bruckner fan I'd think I would have listened to him before this but I haven't. I fell in love with this rendition quick! My take is, if you're going to go slow, you'd better supply a good reason for it and I loved his reasons. 2 1/2 to 3 minutes longer than Von Karajan! BUT....here and there there were phrases, very brief, that I found almost unrecognizable. (I'm more an opera guy, but I love symphonic music and, by my standards, this is a piece I know well) Is that last bit part of the Celibidache thing?
I know you all love Bruckner...Is there a first Bruckner you'd send me to? I'm hoping to keep on loving his stuff!


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Try Bruckner #4 from Munich (EMI). Or Bruckner #8 from Stuttgart (DG). 

Enjoy!


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

For the opposite of Celibidache, I would recommend Bruckner's 7th played by the Budapest Festival Orchestra conducted by Ivan Fischer. They play the symphony in 58 minutes, when most conductors/orchestras play it in about 65 - 70 minutes and Celibidache stretches it out to almost 1 1/2 hours in his recording with the Berlin Philhamonic.

For me this more brisk rendition maintains the tension and is a more interesting performance. Consider trying it out if you do also try out a more drawn out recording, by for e.g. Celibidache.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Celibidache Bruckner 4 finale coda


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

ORigel said:


> Celibidache Bruckner 4 finale coda


Wow! Without the rest of the piece to lead into it this feels like the other side from the Strauss… Closer to slow for slows sake, without the reasons that on a quick hearing justify it. At least halfway through It feels that way. I’m on my way out the door to do something 😆! I’ll get the rest later. Thanks for posting.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

haziz said:


> For the opposite of Celibidache, I would recommend Bruckner's 7th played by the Budapest Festival Orchestra conducted by Ivan Fischer. They play the symphony in 58 minutes, when most conductors/orchestras play it in about 65 - 70 minutes and Celibidache stretches it out to almost 1 1/2 hours in his recording with the Berlin Philhamonic.
> 
> For me this more brisk rendition maintains the tension and is a more interesting performance. Consider trying it out if you do also try out a more drawn out recording, by for e.g. Celibidache.


A few years ago I started to watch the Celibidache/Berlin Phil. video of the Bruckner 7th but finally gave up in frustration about 1/3rd the way into the 2nd movement ... ridiculously slow and was falling apart. I just went to listen to the Fischer/Budapest recording and gave up in frustration about 1/3rd the way into the 2nd movement ... way too fast and falling apart (and I generally like Fischer's work.)

P.S. In doing a scan of B7 recordings on Spotify, it looks like the common range is more like 62-68 minutes so 58 isn't that far off, except that Fischer's 2nd movement is about 5 minutes faster than the average.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

haziz said:


> For the opposite of Celibidache, I would recommend Bruckner's 7th played by the Budapest Festival Orchestra conducted by Ivan Fischer. They play the symphony in 58 minutes, when most conductors/orchestras play it in about 65 - 70 minutes and Celibidache stretches it out to almost 1 1/2 hours in his recording with the Berlin Philhamonic.
> 
> For me this more brisk rendition maintains the tension and is a more interesting performance. Consider trying it out if you do also try out a more drawn out recording, by for e.g. Celibidache.


I’ll listen and let you know, Thanks!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As noted elsewhere, I had to do a 'mental flush' and listen to the live 1982 Giulini/Philharmonia/Proms recording to remind myself of what the 7th 'should' sound like ... ahhh, sanity!


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

haziz said:


> For the opposite of Celibidache, I would recommend Bruckner's 7th played by the Budapest Festival Orchestra conducted by Ivan Fischer. They play the symphony in 58 minutes, when most conductors/orchestras play it in about 65 - 70 minutes and Celibidache stretches it out to almost 1 1/2 hours in his recording with the Berlin Philhamonic.
> For me this more brisk rendition maintains the tension and is a more interesting performance. Consider trying it out if you do also try out a more drawn out recording, by for e.g. Celibidache.





Becca said:


> A few years ago I started to watch the Celibidache/Berlin Phil. video of the Bruckner 7th but finally gave up in frustration about 1/3rd the way into the 2nd movement ... ridiculously slow and was falling apart. I just went to listen to the Fischer/Budapest recording and gave up in frustration about 1/3rd the way into the 2nd movement ... way too fast and falling apart (and I generally like Fischer's work.)
> P.S. In doing a scan of B7 recordings on Spotify, it looks like the common range is more like 62-68 minutes so 58 isn't that far off, except that Fischer's 2nd movement is about 5 minutes faster than the average.


I'm generally in favour of faster tempi in Bruckner than customary today, more like the old-timer conductors from the 40's and 50's tended to do it. Fischer's tempo doesn't sound excessively fast to me, but what I strongly object to is the mannerisms, so typical of modern conductors who want to do something "different" with well-known scores. Breaking up the long melodic lines and tension in favor of exaggerated articulation and dynamics - maybe it works to a certain degree in Beethoven and Haydn, but not in Bruckner. It's terribly soft-edged too, never you get to feel the raw fullness of the orchestra, it's all pretty and nicely played and well-balanced... and mechanical and boring. Like Becca, I had to give up at some point in the adagio.

Regarding extremes in tempi, John F. Berky's Bruckner site has a list of all recordings of the 7th, with the timings.
The only major conductors who get the 7th done in less than an hour are Keilberth, Klemperer, Rögner, Schmdt-Esserstedt, Kabasta, Andreae, Munch (52 minutes! Cut?), Toscanini, Fischer, Norrington and Ormandy.

There's an interesting recording by Max Rudolf and the Cincinnati SO from 1966, which has a 17 minutes adagio - probably a world record. You can listen to it at Berky's site:





October, 2011: Symphony No. 7 / Max Rudolf / Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra - Anton Bruckner


Bruckner Discography



www.abruckner.com




It's certainly fast, but it's a valid interpretation without irritating mannerisms. It's well-structured, well-played, never fragmentary, has a healthy flow and great dynamics. A really nice surprise, this.

EDIT: I'm listening to Rudolf's finale now - and yes, there's something that one could call a "mannerism", the curious ritardando at the end of the opening theme. But holy.... this is one exciting recording. Not a Bruckner 7 for everyday use, but one to cleanse the ears after too much slow and turgid Bruckner by the established masters of the trade.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

RobertJTh said:


> I'm generally in favour of faster tempi in Bruckner than customary today, more like the old-timer conductors from the 40's and 50's tended to do it. Fischer's tempo doesn't sound excessively fast to me, but what I strongly object to is the mannerisms, so typical of modern conductors who want to do something "different" with well-known scores. Breaking up the long melodic lines and tension in favor of exaggerated articulation and dynamics - maybe it works to a certain degree in Beethoven and Haydn, but not in Bruckner. It's terribly soft-edged too, never you get to feel the raw fullness of the orchestra, it's all pretty and nicely played and well-balanced... and mechanical and boring. Like Becca, I had to give up at some point in the adagio.
> 
> Regarding extremes in tempi, John F. Berky's Bruckner site has a list of all recordings of the 7th, with the timings.
> The only major conductors who get the 7th done in less than an hour are Keilberth, Klemperer, Rögner, Schmdt-Esserstedt, Kabasta, Andreae, Munch (52 minutes! Cut?), Toscanini, Fischer, Norrington and Ormandy.
> ...


Man, you like your Bruckner😆!😉!! Thanks for the site, I’ll use it!!


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I'm confused by the title of the thread: _Death and Transfiguration_. I thought you were going to be inquiring or talking about Celibidache's take on this Strauss tone poem, but, nope, you're talking about Bruckner or Celibidache's take on the composer. Well, I'll go ahead and say it: I LOVE his Bruckner, but only with the Münchner Philharmoniker, which his performances with this orchestra are extreme in their slower tempi. I love his set of _Symphonies 4-9_ on EMI (Warner), but there's also a live partial cycle released through Sony Japan --- these are phenomenal performances. Check them out!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> I'm confused by the title of the thread: _Death and Transfiguration_. I thought you were going to be inquiring or talking about Celibidache's take on this Strauss tone poem, but, nope, you're talking about Bruckner or Celibidache's take on the composer. Well, I'll go ahead and say it: I LOVE his Bruckner, but only with the Münchner Philharmoniker, which his performances with this orchestra are extreme in their slower tempi. I love his set of _Symphonies 4-9_ on EMI (Warner), but there's also a live partial cycle released through Sony Japan --- these are phenomenal performances. Check them out!


My observations were all about his performance of Death and Transfiguration, which I happened on and loved. But my inquiry is about his Bruckner because I've always heard his name associated with Bruckner and I love Bruckner. I will definitely check out your recommendations. Thanks!


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