# Beethoven Symphonies: Karajan Vs. Szell



## realdealblues

Just interested in taking a public opinion poll...

Which Beethoven Symphony Cycle do you prefer overall between these two choices?

Karajan (60's Cycle) or Szell?

Again, not asking which one is better or which is the greatest or which one is better than these...

I would just like to know "which one do you personally prefer overall" between these two cycles".


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## Itullian

Szell here overall.


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## PetrB

I can not take Karajan's take on any classical repertoire -- his soul and taste was for the romantic, late romantic. His approach to the classical repertoire rendered it, to me, so conflated to a degree where all he did there is massively distorted, and it makes no sense.


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## moody

There is no comparison except that DGG gave Karajan better recordings than Columbia for Szell.
Karajan rolls along like a shiny Cadillac, everything is very polished but nothing stands out,no soul,no personality.
I had the 1960's Karajan box,I played two discs and that was an end to it !


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## Ukko

I have a few Karajan recordings in my collection, all made when he was working in England.


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## Vesteralen

The 1970s critic Martin Bookspan, who was a regular guest on the radio show "First Hearing" out of New York had a disdain for Karajan. He often could pick out a Karajan performance when a new "mystery" recording was premiered on the show, and then he would go on to tell everyone how bad it was and why. It may have partially been because of that that I sold my Karajan Beethoven LP set back in 1974. So, I really can't remember much about it.

Szell's, on the other hand, I kept and later replaced when the 'original sleeves" CD boxed set came out. There isn't anything interpretively unique about Szell's approach to Beethoven. But, the precision playing of the Cleveland Orchestra is always delightful. The only one of the set that I have yet to find unequaled is the 9th (and mainly because of the finale). But, it's a satisfying set as a whole, and I like it.

As for poor Karajan, though, well,,,,,memory fails me, so I really can't say.


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## EDaddy

Definitely Szell overall for me.


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## joen_cph

Overall I find Szell too classicist in the relatively early repertoire, except in concerto recordings with soloists, which I generally like. I prefer his 20th Century repertoire.


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## DavidA

PetrB said:


> I can not take Karajan's take on any classical repertoire -- his soul and taste was for the romantic, late romantic. His approach to the classical repertoire rendered it, to me, so conflated to a degree where all he did there is massively distorted, and it makes no sense.


That you can make such a statement frankly leaves me gobsmacked!


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## DavidA

moody said:


> There is no comparison except that DGG gave Karajan better recordings than Columbia for Szell.
> Karajan rolls along like a shiny Cadillac, everything is very polished but nothing stands out,no soul,no personality.
> I had the 1960's Karajan box,I played two discs and that was an end to it !


This is, of course, the fashionable view put forward by the anti-Karajan faction of the critics, which has become almost holy-writ for some. The fact is when you hear the fiery, lean performances from the 1963 set (which my good friend obviously hasn't in any detail) the criticism is baffling.


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## DavidA

Vesteralen said:


> The 1970s critic Martin Bookspan, who was a regular guest on the radio show "First Hearing" out of New York had a disdain for Karajan. He often could pick out a Karajan performance when a new "mystery" recording was premiered on the show, and then he would go on to tell everyone how bad it was and why. It may have partially been because of that that I sold my Karajan Beethoven LP set back in 1974. So, I really can't remember much about it.
> 
> Szell's, on the other hand, I kept and later replaced when the 'original sleeves" CD boxed set came out. There isn't anything interpretively unique about Szell's approach to Beethoven. But, the precision playing of the Cleveland Orchestra is always delightful. The only one of the set that I have yet to find unequaled is the 9th (and mainly because of the finale). But, it's a satisfying set as a whole, and I like it.
> 
> As for poor Karajan, though, well,,,,,memory fails me, so I really can't say.


Interesting, that in those days it used to be fashionable for critics to rubbish Karajan in favour of Klemperer's slow readings. How fashions change!


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## StlukesguildOhio

Given the choice of a single cycle of Beethoven's symphonies I would most certainly go with Karajan's fiery "romantic" readings of the 1960s over almost anyone else... although I would choose various other conductors if we were to break the set down into individual symphonies (Gardiner's 3rd, Carlos Kleiber's 5th, etc...). Now if the symphonies were Schumann's it would be Szell all the way.


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## DavidA

Of course both men were superb musicians. When the Szell first came out it was described as 'workmanlike' in the gramophone as opposed to inspired. We perhaps appreciate Szell better now as a musician. I myself, however, think that Karajan has the edge in recording, orchestral playing and general personality of interpretation. Of course, it is a personal view, aided by the fact I don't subscribe to the view that Karajan's success, personality and history disqualifies him as a musician, as some do.
I actually think a combination of the 63 and 77 sets gives a very satisfying Beethoven cycle:
1&2 - 63
3 - 77
4 - 63
5, 6 & 7 - 77
8 - 63
9 - 77

It is interesting whether, if Karajan had recorded as little as (say) Carlos Kleiber, whether his recordings would be better regarded than they are in some circles. Having achieved a pinnacle of success and power, however, as he did, he did become the figure of unbridled hatred of those to whom success is an anathema. That part of the problem was his own making is beyond doubt. But that should not obscure his qualities as a conductor.


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## StlukesguildOhio

The 1970s critic Martin Bookspan, who was a regular guest on the radio show "First Hearing" out of New York had a disdain for Karajan. He often could pick out a Karajan performance when a new "mystery" recording was premiered on the show, and then he would go on to tell everyone how bad it was and why.

It may have been Bookspan (or another adamant Karajan-hater) who also disliked Bach (preferring Handel) and declared that Messiaen's _Quatuor pour la fin du Temps_ was the only work to ever have succeeded in making him physically ill.


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## DavidA

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The 1970s critic Martin Bookspan, who was a regular guest on the radio show "First Hearing" out of New York had a disdain for Karajan. He often could pick out a Karajan performance when a new "mystery" recording was premiered on the show, and then he would go on to tell everyone how bad it was and why.
> 
> It may have been Bookspan (or another adamant Karajan-hater) who also disliked Bach (preferring Handel) and declared that Messiaen's _Quatuor pour la fin du Temps_ was the only work to ever have succeeded in making him physically ill.


Wasn't it Beecham who said that critics are people who can read music but can't hear it?


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## EDaddy

Generally it's Szell for me but I find his 5th to be less than inspired. Karajan has a couple that have much more panache.
Love Szell's 3rd and 6th tho.


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## Brahmsian Colors

My current choices, Szell vs. Karajan(his 1963 released set(actually recorded 1961-62):

No.1 Karajan
No.2 My least favorite Beethoven Symphony--no choice
No.3 Szell. Also like Munch/Boston Symphony
No.4 Karajan. Also like Walter/Columbia Symphony
No.5 Karajan (my all time favorite B 5th). Also like Solti/Vienna Philharmonic
No.6 Neither. Current preferences are Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic and Dorati/London Symphony
No.7 Neither. Preference has long been Reiner/Chicago Symphony. Also like Bernstein/New York Phiharmonic
No.8 Karajan
No.9 Neither. Preference is Reiner/Chicago Symphony


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## Heck148

PetrB said:


> I can not take Karajan's take on any classical repertoire --......


I don''t enjoy HvK on much of any repertoire...
for Beethoven, I'll take Szell over him any time, every time.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Heck148 said:


> I don''t enjoy HvK on much of any repertoire...
> for Beethoven, I'll take Szell over him any time, every time.


For up until about two years ago, and for some reason I still cannot truly fathom, except to say I more than likely held a long term prejudice against him, I could not stand Karajan. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, something changed after I began taking a good listen to his Beethoven and Brahms, which I now more often than not favor over Szell's. While Karajan's Brahms (from the '60s and '70s) does not typically eclipse my preferences for Jochum's, Kertesz's, Walter's or Klemperer's Brahms, I can still enjoy most of what he has to say about that composer. I'm also deriving pleasure from some of Karajan's interpretations of other composers where before I was unwilling to give him much of a real chance insofar as listening to them.


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## Heck148

Haydn67 said:


> For up until about two years ago, and for some reason I still cannot truly fathom, except to say I more than likely held a long term prejudice against him, I could not stand Karajan. Then, seemingly out of nowhere, something changed after I began taking a good listen to his Beethoven and Brahms,


I've tried many,many times to re-visit HvK, to see if I'm missing something....but he just doesn't deliver for me, I've kind of given up on it....mainly, I don't like the sound he gets from an orchestra, but there are some other mannerisms which I find unattractive......


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## bigshot

Comparing Karajan and Szell is like comparing Stokowski and Toscanini. Completely different yet equally valid approaches.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Heck148 said:


> I've tried many,many times to re-visit HvK, to see if I'm missing something....but he just doesn't deliver for me, I've kind of given up on it....mainly, I don't like the sound he gets from an orchestra, but there are some other mannerisms which I find unattractive......


I certainly can relate to what you're saying here. Taking your entire quote, word for word, it duplicates the same experience I continue to go through with Wilhelm Furtwangler.


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## Radames

Szell. Karajan's style was pretty dispassionate. Szell's best was the Beethoven 3rd. Best Beethoven 3rd I've ever heard.


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## DiesIraeCX

It's very interesting how our interpretations can differ, it's Szell's Beethoven that I sometimes find to be dispassionate, while I find some of Karajan's to be a bit too glossy and perhaps lacking depth. That said, I really enjoy Karajan's 1963 Ninth, it's my very favorite Ninth. I enjoy the rest of the '63 cycle, but I have favorites from other conductors. I enjoy Szell's 3rd and 8th.


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## Heck148

Haydn67 said:


> I certainly can relate to what you're saying here. Taking your entire quote, word for word, it duplicates the same experience I continue to go through with Wilhelm Furtwangler.


That is interesting!! When I first got into concert, "classical" music - I was most infatuated with Furtwangler - it seemed so "profound", so "deep", etc, etc...but as I got more into formal study, conservatory, etc - I began to see that other approaches had more attraction for me....and seemed more genuine....precision, rhythmic accuracy, aggressive performance style were very strongly emphasized. Increasingly, the overall distortions, sloppiness, rhythmic laxity of Furtwangler performances became unattractive, even annoying to me...


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## Heck148

Radames said:


> Szell's best was the Beethoven 3rd. Best Beethoven 3rd I've ever heard.


Szell's 2, 4, 5, 8 are very fine....his #7 is one of the very best....a frequent criticism of Szell is that sometimes he keeps things too "buttoned down", "bolted down" too tight, in the interests of absolute precision....that is sometimes true - but he can really let things rip, and it is really great when he does - his orchestra was superb...His Beethoven #7, and his Leonore #3 with Cleveland are two such examples - great stuff....


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## Brahmsian Colors

Heck148 said:


> Increasingly, the overall distortions, sloppiness, rhythmic laxity of Furtwangler performances became unattractive, even annoying to me...


Bingo! The same reasons I have had difficulty enjoying Furtwangler. I get turned off with his intermittent tendency to extend pauses in already slow passages. Bass resonance is also a recurring problem in a number of his recordings.


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## Pugg

Herbert Von Karajan (1960's Cycle) , hands down


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## Chiroptera

Karajan's 1962/3 cycle is a musical eruption. Fiery, flowing, fun. 

Karajan is my choice.


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## pcnog11

These 2 conductors have very different approaches to music and conducting style. It is very hard to compare. I learn to listen to Karajan when I was young and considered "first love" of Beethoven. Szell and Karajan had different depths in expressing Beethoven, it seems that Szell's emotion could be deeper than Karajan. However, Karajan had a technical edge. The BPO makes a difference in playing Beethoven over Cleveland, IMHO. I picked Karajan.


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## DavidA

Radames said:


> Szell. *Karajan's style was pretty dispassionate. *Szell's best was the Beethoven 3rd. Best Beethoven 3rd I've ever heard.


Are you really listening to the same recordings as me? I cannot imagine anyone listening to Karajan's fiery 1963 cycle (or 77 cycle for that matter) and calling them 'dispassionate'.


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## DavidA

DiesIraeCX said:


> It's very interesting how our interpretations can differ, it's Szell's Beethoven that I sometimes find to be dispassionate, while I find some of *Karajan's to be a bit too glossy and perhaps lacking depth.* That said, I really enjoy Karajan's 1963 Ninth, it's my very favorite Ninth. I enjoy the rest of the '63 cycle, but I have favorites from other conductors. I enjoy Szell's 3rd and 8th.


Again I wonder whether you are confusing superb orchestral playing with lacking depth.


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## starthrower

DavidA said:


> Again I wonder whether you are confusing superb orchestral playing with lacking depth.


It has been noted that "Karajan conducts the orchestra rather than the music." See Mauricio Kagel's 1969 satirical film, Ludwig Van.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Radames said:


> Szell's best was the Beethoven 3rd. Best Beethoven 3rd I've ever heard.


Agree with you on Szell's B3.


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## hpowders

Beethoven's Eroica is right in Szell's wheelhouse, given the no-nonsense strict style of conducting he exhibited.

I would expect Szell's Eroica to be a superior performance.


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## Brahmsian Colors

hpowders said:


> Beethoven's Eroica is right in Szell's wheelhouse, given the no-nonsense strict style of conducting he exhibited.
> 
> I would expect Szell's Eroica to be a superior performance.


You've hit the nail on the head.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Pugg said:


> Herbert Von Karajan (1960's Cycle) , hands down


Of all Beethoven Symphony sets I've owned or heard, this is my favorite as well. Not perfect, but whose set is?


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## pcnog11

hpowders said:


> Beethoven's Eroica is right in Szell's wheelhouse, given the no-nonsense strict style of conducting he exhibited.
> 
> I would expect Szell's Eroica to be a superior performance.


Although I pick Karajan, I have to admit Szell had a been performance on B3.


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## amfortas

I've had the Szell for years. Just ordered the Karajan (the most recent remastering, with all the symphonies on a single Blu-ray disc).

So now I won't have to decide.


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## Vaneyes

Like it or not, recordings consensus spoke long ago. HvK's 60's LvB cycle is akin to Casals Bach Suites, Schnabel LvB Sonatas, Rubinstein Chopin, BAT Haydn Trios. Rock solid thumbs up for.

However, there *are* two LvB genre that HvK cannot touch Szell. Overtures, and Piano Concerti w. Fleisher.

End of story, let's move on.


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## bigshot

I like different conductors for different symphonies... Bohm's 6th, Karajan's 9th, Toscanini's 3rd, etc... But the only full cycle that I like everything in is Kletzky / Czech PO on Supraphon.


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## Brahmsian Colors

bigshot said:


> I like different conductors for different symphonies... Bohm's 6th, Karajan's 9th, Toscanini's 3rd, etc... But the only full cycle that I like everything in is Kletzky / Czech PO on Supraphon.


I was not aware Kletzki did a Beethoven cycle. Sounds interesting.


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## Pugg

Haydn67 said:


> Of all Beethoven Symphony sets I've owned or heard, this is my favorite as well. Not perfect, but whose set is?


None, but in general ,this one will do.


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## pcnog11

If we have to add a 3rd conductor or 4th conductor to compare, who will they be? Any suggestions?


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## Brahmsian Colors

pcnog11 said:


> If we have to add a 3rd conductor or 4th conductor to compare, who will they be? Any suggestions?


Well, that might be a tough one, what with so many personal recommendations floating around out there. Remember, all of this is very subjective. In cases like this I would tell one to listen to as many recordings as possible that can be found on You Tube to get an idea how various conductors/orchestras come across. Of course, even this is no guarantee, since recordings differ soundwise regardless of interpretations. Some people give priority to sound over interpretation, and vice versa. Otherwise, some conductors have recorded the Complete Beethoven Symphonies more than once, even with the same orchestra; for example, Karajan(Berlin Philharmonic). Despite what has been noted, it's probably pretty safe to say a decent number of Beethoven fans would lean toward recommending the sets of Walter/Columbia Symphony, Klemperer/Philharmonia Orchestra, Leibowitz/Royal Philharmonic, Bohm/Vienna Philharmonic and Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic. Others swear by classic mono collections such as Toscanini, Weingartner, Scherchen, Furtwangler and Mengelberg. I won't try to probe any further, but at least you get an idea about how involved the search can become.


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## bigshot

Here is the Kletzki for anyone interested... http://amzn.to/2hWzM1u

My favorite Beethoven symphonies sets aside from Kletzki, Karajan and Szell are Toscanini, Bernstein 60s, Bohm, and Furtwangler. I like things in the later Karajan's and Walter too.


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## Heck148

Reiner [not a "set", available from different sources], Walter [both NYPO, ColSO], Toscanini/NBC, Monteux/LSO, VPO, but I don't think a complete set is available


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## Guest

The choice between Szell or Karajan is easy ,thats why I bought the SACD edition for the best sound.


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## Pugg

Traverso said:


> The choice between Szell or Karajan is easy ,thats why I bought the SACD edition for the best sound.


I did buy the ( remastered) vinyl set not that long ago.


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## starthrower

bigshot said:


> I like different conductors for different symphonies... Bohm's 6th, Karajan's 9th, Toscanini's 3rd, etc... But the only full cycle that I like everything in is Kletzky / Czech PO on Supraphon.


What exactly makes the Kletzki set so special? And which symphony would be a good example to convince a listener? I've been listening to 5 & 7 on YouTube, but nothing stands out. Sounds fairly uniform and interchangeable with other reliable performances.


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## Larkenfield

Sorry, but neither HvK or Szell for me.


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## bigshot

Wow. This one resurfaced after a very long time.


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## starthrower

bigshot said:


> Wow. This one resurfaced after a very long time.


I had a question for you in post # 50.


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## bigshot

Sorry I missed your post...

The big advantage of the Kletzki set is the consistency. None of the symphonies are performed better or worse than any other. The whole cycle is great. They have some really spontaneous moments of energy that lifts them to a whole different level beyond just straight performances. The pacing is never "by the book" or routine... always thought out yet fresh sounding. I can't remember where it is, but there is a finale to one movement where he seems to handle it a little differently than they had rehearsed it. The orchestra digs in with enthusiasm and responds to his improvisation perfectly. The recording quality is excellent. But the biggest reason is the Czech Philharmonic. That orchestra has a really unique sound, particularly the woodwinds, which suits Beethoven perfectly. It's one of those things that you don't realize the music needs it until you hear it.

I have individual favorites for symphonies from other sets, but Kletzki is the one that I can listen to all of them and be really happy with every one.


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## starthrower

I do like the Czech Philharmonic. I just ordered the Bohm set from Presto Classical. The box sets are on sale until mid January so maybe I'll grab the Kletzki set before then. Thanks!


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## APL

starthrower said:


> I do like the Czech Philharmonic. I just ordered the Bohm set from Presto Classical. The box sets are on sale until mid January so maybe I'll grab the Kletzki set before then. Thanks!


What special is about Kletzki. I so often hear about it in positive terms.


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## starthrower

APL said:


> What special is about Kletzki. I so often hear about it in positive terms.


Read post # 54.


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## APL

starthrower said:


> Read post # 54.


Ok. I already have red it. But at first I done than I thought. Thank you for your helps! I may order too!


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## bigshot

starthrower said:


> I do like the Czech Philharmonic. I just ordered the Bohm set from Presto Classical. The box sets are on sale until mid January so maybe I'll grab the Kletzki set before then. Thanks!


Anytime you can get Supraphon on sale, jump on it. That is one label that doesn't get discounted much.


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## starthrower

bigshot said:


> Anytime you can get Supraphon on sale, jump on it. That is one label that doesn't get discounted much.


Presto has good prices on Supraphon titles. I also ordered a Dvorak/Neumann cycle on that label.


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## Merl

The fact that these two cycles are now level on votes (after my own vote) tells you how good they both are. I voted Karajan 60s as its just a tiny bit more consistent and it was my first LvB cycle however these are 2 of my top ten cycles. Szell is superb too. Cant believe ive never seen this thread before. Lol


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## gardibolt

I nudged Karajan ahead. I'm not wild about his set (even though it was my imprint set), but while I like Szell otherwise I don't much care for his LvB.


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