# Boulez?



## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Just curious, but am I wrong in avoiding him whenever I see his name on a cd?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

As composer or conductor? I have numerous CDs by Boulez the conductor. Only one as composer.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

When he's conducting, you should stay away from him unless you like interpretations that are seemingly cold, dry, polished and emotionally uninvolved. I do, that's why Boulez is one of my favourite conductors.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

you should give him a chance. You may wind up liking some of his music (I tend to prefer Babbitt's serialism to Boulez's, but Boulez can be very exciting music). I don't think cold or dry are good ways of describing his conducting. More... calculated, meticulous. He is not a bad conductor at all.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2012)

Heard only three pieces, but they are archetypal "modern" and "tuneless." If you like such, listen.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2012)

You might want to consider the avantages of not avoiding anyone.

You never know. Once you've tried something and not liked it, maybe then. But you cannot get good advice about what to listen to or to avoid from anyone. You have to do that yourself. What if everyone in the world hated Boulez but you listened to him and liked him? Then he'd be good for you. And you're all that matters--you're the only one you have to please.

Then only thing I'd advise beyond not avoiding anything is to never give up on anything, either. I grew up hating Hanson with the whitehot intensity of a thousand suns, but one day I heard some nice stuff on the radio. When the announcer came on, I found out that what I'd been enjoying was Hanson's sixth symphony.

Well, so much for my hyperbolic disdain.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2012)

some guy said:


> I grew up hating Hanson with the whitehot intensity of a thousand suns


Anything to do with MMMBop?


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Boulez is the greatest modern living composer. All others are seconds or worse!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Andreas said:


> When he's conducting, you should stay away from him unless you like interpretations that are seemingly cold, dry, polished and emotionally uninvolved. I do, that's why Boulez is one of my favourite conductors.


I would agree with this as a rule but there are exceptions: his Bruckner 8 for a start.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

I rate Boulez very highly as a conductor. I'm not so familar with his compositional work but what little I've heard I like it a lot. For example there was a good performance of Dérive 2 (a piece for small orchestra) on the Proms a couple of days ago. I thought both the work itself and its performance under Barenboim's baton was excellent. I shall be delving further into Boulez's compositions.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I would say that he is worth listening to merely for his role in 20th century music. I have one CD (Anthemes 2, Messagesquisse, Sur Incises) of his works but haven't really got into it yet. I can't really say that it sounds terrible to me, so I don't regret the purchase, but I wouldn't say that it's a hot recommendation. As far as conduction goes, I have listened to a smattering of his recordings and think they are fine as well as seen a couple of opera productions that he conducted (which are above average IMHO). I am also intrigued by his large body of work conducting pieces by 20th century composers, particularly the Second Viennese School. 

I'd also mention that Boulez's works are being performed in several of this year's BBC Proms concerts, which will be available on the BBC Radio 3 website.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

Manok said:


> Just curious, but am I wrong in avoiding him whenever I see his name on a cd?


Yes. He's one of the most significant 'classical' musicians on the international scene of the past 65 years or so for a number of reasons. His enormous influence & impact on today's musical culture is hard to ignore. As a composer, he's written some remarkably accomplished pieces such as - the piano sonatas, le visage nuptial, le soleil des eaux, le marteau sans maitre, pli selon pli, eclat-multiples, ritual, repons, ...explosante-fixe... & sur incises.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Composer - Rituel, Notations, Figures with Robertson (naive), Piano Sonatas with Jumppanen (DG)
Composer and performer - Sur incises, etc (DG)
Performer - Mahler 6 (DG), Mahler 8 (DG), Bartok various recs. (DG), Berio (Sony), Carter (Sony), Schoenberg (Sony), Varese (Sony), Webern (DG), Debussy (Sony), Stravinsky (Sony)


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Also, its good not to judge an artist based on just a few pieces. Listening to Boulez's rather difficult piano sonatas or John Cage's 4'33'' and deciding you won't like any of their work is like hearing Mozart's brilliant Symphony 40 or Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and assuming you'll like all his music  (though with some artists, their work is all similar enough that you'll likely enjoy most of their work, I'm just saying that when an artist writes music of extremely varied qualities, you should listen around more before deciding you hate them)


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

The few pieces of Boulez's music that I have listened too were listenable, not outrageous to me. I probably admire his artistic endeavours as a conductor than a composer.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

As a conductor, he is almost nonpareil regarding: Debussy / Ravel / Mahler / Berg / Schoenberg / Webern and truly many others. There is just enough 'romanticism' and rubato to the early twentieth century 'Vienna School' Serialists, which is an extension of late romanticism.

His Mahler, too, has the right amount of late romantic combined with a cleaner 'modern' approach.

His dynamic balance, control of tempi, and ability to elucidate a piece in a way that you hear every part of every instrument while it stays in balance is unbelievably canny.

His compositions, 'avant-garde' serialist, are nonetheless often enough 'sensual' and not that far removed from the very 'French' sound and harmonic procedures of Debussy.


One should give every great musician, composer, performer, conductor "A chance." There is no one absolute way of performing anything, and many legitimate performances which differ, in subtle or not so subtle ways.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Boulez as a conductor has led many leading orrchestras today and has contract with leading labels inclduing DG. Enough said!


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

You are wrong, seek help.

After a long hard day at work tomorrow, pour yourself a glass of wine, sit back in your comfy arm chair and turn on the youtube to experience the magical, sensual and relaxing sounds of Boulez.


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

Rapide said:


> Boulez as a conductor has led many leading orrchestras today and has contract with leading labels inclduing DG. Enough said!


Are you acquainted, perchance?


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

The problem with Boulez is that music before the 20th century doesn't seem to exist to him. There's a reason Boulez never conducts older masters and I'm not entirely sure it's just because he deems himself unsuitable for conducting music from the Romantic, Baroque or Classical era. I mean, the man has quite an ego and has admitted to being a bully, though he's relatively mild compared to the olden days of total serialism (to which the soothing* Piano Sonata violadude posted belongs) and harsh polemics (calling Shostakovich a "the second, or even third pressing of Mahler", for example).

I've recently finished Alex Ross' excellent account of 20th century music ("The Rest is Noise") and Boulez is the only composer whose chapter is represented more or less negatively - though he has positive words for his music. The article on Ross' blog is a rather condensed and more critical version of the chapter in the book.

That being said, Boulez is very important as a composer and conductor of 20th century music, so I would certainly not ignore him based on his personality. Time will tell just as how important he will be regarded in musical history.

* = Yes "seething" is a better term.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

mensch said:


> The problem with Boulez is that music before the 20th century doesn't seem to exist to him.


Well, he did record Berlioz, Wagner, late Bruckner and early Mahler, so there is some 19th century music in his discography. But still, you raise a good point. I'd love to hear his take on Beethoven for instance, but that probably won't happen.

And it's true, Boulez is a polarizing figure to say the least. Glenn Gould didn't like him, so it's kind of ironic that Boulez was awarded the Glenn Gould Prize some time ago.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

mensch said:


> though he's relatively mild compared to the olden days of total serialism (to which the soothing* Piano Sonata violadude posted belongs) and harsh polemics (calling Shostakovich a "the second, or even third pressing of Mahler", for example).
> 
> * = Yes "seething" is a better term.


Awww  I thought that piece was quite soothing.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Pierre Boulez: 'I was a bully, I'm not ashamed' :lol:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/...erre-Boulez-I-was-a-bully-Im-not-ashamed.html


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

Andreas said:


> And it's true, Boulez is a polarizing figure to say the least. Glenn Gould didn't like him, so it's kind of ironic that Boulez was awarded the Glenn Gould Prize some time ago.


Well, there is a long list of people Glenn Gould didn't like and I'm not too fond of him or his opinions, to be honest. Gould was as snobbish and dismissive as Boulez, probably moreso.

As far as Boulez being a bully goes, he has said some pretty contraversial things in decades gone past and been an iconoclastic figure (revolutionary even), but there were many 'bullies' in the field of conducting. Mahler, Karajan, Toscanini, Handel to name just a few. While that style is less fashionable, it hasn't gone away at all. It's the same in any field where one person is in control over a group of others - business, politics, management, movie directors or the military.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

mensch said:


> The problem with Boulez is that music before the 20th century doesn't seem to exist to him.


But what's the problem with that?. There are a lot of other conductors. Let the man do what he wants.!, he does it very well. It's curious, there are conductors who only conduct baroque music, or romantic music, but nobody say anything... . No, when the man wants to specialize in XX century music, oh, atrocious, biased, etc... 

As for Boulez as a composer, the piece _Derive 1_ may be a good start for a first contact with his music:


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

aleazk said:


> But what's the problem with that?. There are a lot of other conductors. Let the man do what he wants.!, he does it very well. It's curious, there are conductors who only conduct baroque music, or romantic music, but nobody say anything... . No, when the man wants to specialize in XX century music, oh, atrocious, biased, etc...
> 
> As for Boulez as a composer, the piece _Derive 1_ may be a good start for a first contact with his music:


It is sonorous and perhaps colourful but it just twiddles on going nowhere in particular.
Can't say I know all his music but I've yet to hear something that impresses me or leaves an impression on me other than someone doodling with sound. Boulez is not alone in this.
That he has been influential is no doubt true to a large extent but I am not convinced that his influence has been a_ good thing_.

I find it inoffensive but rather boring.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)




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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

mensch said:


> The problem with Boulez is that music before the 20th century doesn't seem to exist to him.


This is a common myth .. he is very aware of musical history and has and can conduct it very easily, but it's ground that has been covered so many times over, by so many others to the point where it's not really about culture but business. He's a composer since the post-war period, he's naturally interested in music that is more in tune with the spirit of the times .. gone are the rigid hierarchies of tone centred music of bygone eras to give way to a de-centred endlessly proliferating music that is a reflection of today's much more complex world. And he already is an important historical figure.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Jimm said:


> This is a common myth .. he is very aware of musical history and has and can conduct it very easily, but it's ground that has been covered so many times over, by so many others to the point where it's not really about culture but business. He's a composer since the post-war period, he's naturally interested in music that is more in tune with the spirit of the times .. gone are the rigid hierarchies of tone centred music of bygone eras to give way to a de-centred endlessly proliferating music that is a reflection of today's much more complex world. And he already is an important historical figure.


Speaking of myths, I think that equating musical style with social conditions leads us absolutely nowhere. And endlessly proliferating music can be endlessly directionless and irrelevant. 
What is the 'spirit' of the times that Boulez is more in tune with? I think it's true that our world in the post-war period has a faster pace of change compared to centuries past but this is _not _reflected in the music. Art is a product of it's time but good art reflects or illuminates that which transcends it's time. That is my belief. 
Some aspects of our world are complex, outwardly, but our inner life, struggles, the human condition remains the same for Bach as for Boulez though I hesitate to put those two on the same plane.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Speaking of myths, I think that equating musical style with social conditions leads us absolutely nowhere. And endlessly proliferating music can be endlessly directionless and irrelevant.
> What is the 'spirit' of the times that Boulez is more in tune with? I think it's true that our world in the post-war period has a faster pace of change compared to centuries past but this is _not _reflected in the music. Art is a product of it's time but good art reflects or illuminates that which transcends it's time. That is my belief.
> Some aspects of our world are complex, outwardly, but our inner life, struggles, the human condition remains the same for Bach as for Boulez though I hesitate to put those two on the same plane.


It's true that some of the problems are the same today as were yesterday, however, the tools available for today's artist are different, also the interpretation of those problems. And also there are new problems.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Well, I was thinking only as a conductor, forgot or never knew that he was a composer himself. I would not want to live in a world with no tonality or structure at all. Besides music should be fun, not just about breaking the next barrier.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

Boulez's art is also more in tune with today's radically different view of reality .. full of uncertainties and perpetually changing. Organized, yet free ,, like an organized delirium that we're born into. Experiencing this music can be like that at first, we drop into a sound-world that is in constant flux all around, but the more we traverse it (with our ears) the more we get to know how it goes but not totally .. there are ambiguities, hidden, elusive & mysterious qualities; and it opens up these mental barriers and makes us grow. It is a music of discovery. Check out ...explosante-fixe..., one of his masterworks ,, and a wonderful marriage of the computerized world and the instrumental world. He's one of the big beasts who has remained a force over the last 65 years or so with regards to music being organized at the highest level.


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Manok said:


> Well, I was thinking only as a conductor, forgot or never knew that he was a composer himself. I would not want to live in a world with no tonality or structure at all. Besides music should be fun, not just about breaking the next barrier.


That's like saying visual art should be pretty, not about drastically changing culture. Music causes and is caused by progress of society.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Jimm said:


> Boulez's art is also more in tune with today's radically different view of reality .. full of uncertainties and perpetually changing. Organized, yet free ,, like an organized delirium that we're born into.


That seems to me a huge generalisation and an over simplistic view. Who's view of reality are you referring to?
Quantum or relativistic physics? Boulez's reality? Mine?

I presume then that the techniques that are associated with 14th century polyphony such as isorhythm and that have been applied to works of Messiaen and Cage means that Machaut and de Vitry must have had a similar view of reality to their 20th C fellow composers.

I think all ages were full of uncertainty.



Jimm said:


> He's one of the big beasts who has remained a force over the last 65 years or so with regards to music being organized at the highest level.


Highly organised music does not necessarily equate with music on the highest level.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Jimm said:


> This is a common myth .. he is very aware of musical history and has and can conduct it very easily, but it's ground that has been covered so many times over, by so many others to the point where it's not really about culture but business.


Well, apart from the aforementioned Berlioz, I can find one recording of Händel, Beethoven and one of CPE Bach in his discography, so I think one can safely assume older music doesn't interest him as much as modern repertoire as a conductor. Performances of older works can still delight, surprise or even incite controversy. Especially a radicalist like Boulez could provide a meaningful contribution to those older works.

He's a grand old man now and he may conduct what he want, but I can't help but think what a Bach interpretation of Boulez sounds like.



aleazk said:


> But what's the problem with that?. There are a lot of other conductors. Let the man do what he wants.!, he does it very well. It's curious, there are conductors who only conduct baroque music, or romantic music, but nobody say anything... . No, when the man wants to specialize in XX century music, oh, atrocious, biased, etc...


I never said it was atrocious or biased, I just think it's a shame he doesn't conduct more from that period. 
I also think his views of (modern) composers are rather limited, calling Cage "trivial", Satie "a small man" and he said of Adams: "I cannot say I will spit on his music, but I cannot admire it either. His opera The Death of Klinghoffer sounded like bad film music." That doesn't mean I can't enjoy Boulez' conducting or compositions.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Toddlertoddy said:


> Music causes and is caused by progress of society.


I doubt that very much indeed.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

mensch said:


> Well, apart from the aforementioned Berlioz, I can find one recording of Händel, Beethoven and one of CPE Bach in his discography, so I think one can safely assume older music doesn't interest him as much as modern repertoire as a conductor. Performances of older works can still delight, surprise or even incite controversy. Especially a radicalist like Boulez could provide a meaningful contribution to those older works. He's a grand old man now and he may conduct what he want, but I can't help but think what a Bach interpretation of Boulez sounds like.


Don't judge things based on discography. He's had to conduct musical history throughout his career. Repeating the past over and over isn't something that's appealing, and it stagnates the art in general for business purposes .. he is a man of our time.


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## mensch (Mar 5, 2012)

Jimm said:


> Repeating the past over and over isn't something that's appealing, and it stagnates the art in general for business purposes .. he is a man of our time.


You say that as if it's a generally acknowledged truth, but I'm quite curious to see the reasoning behind this. Several conductors freely move between style periods, still promoting the glorious progress of the arts by performing modern works.

Contemporary composers like Steve Reich, György Ligeti, Alfred Schnittke, etc. use influences from Pérotin, Mozart, Chopin, Bach, etc. They're not slavishly repeating the past, but creating something new while still observing a few hundred years of musical tradition, in my opinion.


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## Manok (Aug 29, 2011)

Toddlertoddy said:


> That's like saying visual art should be pretty, not about drastically changing culture. Music causes and is caused by progress of society.


Not saying there can't be change, but it shouldn't ALL be about change, and nothing else. I think that too often some people on here take music far to seriously and need to lighten up a bit.


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## Jimm (Jun 29, 2012)

mensch said:


> Several conductors freely move between style periods, still promoting the glorious progress of the arts by performing modern works.


Yes several .. _including_ Boulez. He is also one of the seminal figures of 20th century music beyond his career as a conductor; he's one of it's top composers & thinkers, and a founder of new institutions for the cause of new music .. in the history of music only Wagner had been able to command patronage on the scale that Boulez has.



mensch said:


> Contemporary composers like Steve Reich, György Ligeti, Alfred Schnittke, etc. use influences from Pérotin, Mozart, Chopin, Bach, etc. They're not slavishly repeating the past, but creating something new while still observing a few hundred years of musical tradition, in my opinion.


I was referring to interpreters (reproducers), recording companies & a small handful of concert halls that have been serving the same 'old' menu over & over. But this is only a tiny portion of a much larger picture & things are slowly changing, and will continue to change. It takes time though ..

But on your point here (your quote above), you can include Boulez and all 'name' composers to that list; he's learnt-from and knows musical history well .. and his music is a wonderful synthesis of raw materials that came before, though he doesn't wear it on his sleeves ... and he doesn't merely recombine everything that we know and everything that we have heard before .. he's a little more demanding on his own creative activities, and makes no compromises.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I haven't gotten into Boulez, and I see Amazon has two inexpensive albums of his. Any thoughts on which one I should explore?


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

The one on the left is excellent, the Derives are highlights of Boulez's late style, scintillating works (such an overused word in contemporary music criticism but I can't think of anything else that describes them better). I don't know the one on the right but Rituel is a gorgeous work.

I don't really want to carry on the 1+ year old argument above but Boulez seems to have a reputation as a dry academic composer, only interested in "musical research" or making clever musical puzzles. This is extremely unfair and seems to be based more on his early rhetoric than his music, which is in the lineage of Debussy and Ravel (plus Messiaen and Stravinsky and Webern) and has always been extremely sensuous. His later works are more fluid and perhaps easier on the ear, though not necessarily better, than his earlier works.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I heard one of his piano sonatas recently that was quite nice. Other than that, I haven't been able to get into much of his work. Will keep an open ear.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> I haven't gotten into Boulez, and I see Amazon has two inexpensive albums of his. Any thoughts on which one I should explore?


As one who's heard both, I recommend the one on the left, although both are good, and Rituel continues to be among his more accessible works. Derive 2 is one of his masterpieces, though, and it's only better in its expanded form (I first heard it in its 20 minute version on a DG disc paired with Le marteau).


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Andreas said:


> When he's conducting, you should stay away from him unless you like interpretations that are seemingly cold, dry, polished and emotionally uninvolved. I do, that's why Boulez is one of my favourite conductors.


One of my favorite conductors and I disagree wholeheartedly. Emotionally uninvolved? Wow.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Boulez is an exceptional conductor; easily my favourite for the 20th century repertoire.

His Mozart isn't bad either:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

chalkpie said:


> One of my favorite conductors and I disagree wholeheartedly. Emotionally uninvolved? Wow.


I'm convinced that people who say this are either listening through the lens of extremely over-the-top interpretations like Bernstein's or just biased beforehand, and if they didn't know it was Boulez, they wouldn't hear it as being passionless at all.

Some of the reviews of Boulez's Mahler at Amazon are ridiculous. They say he steamrolls tempo and dynamic indications, when actually he adds plenty of rubato and minute phrase-shaping.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I'm convinced that people who say this are either listening through the lens of extremely over-the-top interpretations like Bernstein's or just biased beforehand, and if they didn't know it was Boulez, they wouldn't hear it as being passionless at all.
> 
> Some of the reviews of Boulez's Mahler at Amazon are ridiculous. They say he steamrolls tempo and dynamic indications, when actually he adds plenty of rubato and minute phrase-shaping.


Would you recommend his Mahler then? I know it's had mixed reviews. Have you heard his Bruckner's 8th?

Boulez is my top choice for Debussy and Ravel, very different from the slush that some conductors turn them into. His SVS recordings are all excellent too. I wish he didn't hate Brahms, I'd love to hear what he could do with his symphonies.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

There´s sometimes a difference from the early Boulez to the later, especially the CBS/Sony years if compared to the DG. His early Webern "Passacaglia" for instance is more dramatic than the later DG. His early Bartok is likewise very engaged. In the case of his early Stravinsky and Bartok, the competition however from more extrovert conductors was particularly harsh (Dorati, Markevitch for instance), but I think the characterization sometimes seen of the Cleveland SO "Sacre" as being rather objective is not really correct, there are some impressive climaxes in it. 
On the other hand, his early Debussy/CBS-Sony seems to lack colour IMO, also due to a rather dull and flat recorded sound.

Overall one of the finest conductor legacies of the 20th century, I think.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

joen_cph said:


> There´s sometimes a difference from the early Boulez to the later, especially the CBS/Sony years if compared to the DG. His early Webern "Passacaglia" for instance is more dramatic than the later DG. His early Bartok is likewise very engaged. In the case of his early Stravinsky and Bartok, the competition however from more extrovert conductors was particularly harsh (Dorati, Markevitch for instance), but I think the characterization sometimes seen of the Cleveland SO "Sacre" as being rather objective is not really correct, there are some impressive climaxes in it.
> On the other hand, his early Debussy/CBS-Sony seems to lack colour IMO, also due to a rather dull and flat recorded sound.
> 
> Overall one of the finest conductor legacies of the 20th century, I think.


This interview is really fantastic, he talks about all that:


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Garlic said:


> I wish he didn't hate Brahms, I'd love to hear what he could do with his symphonies.


Disregard Brahms, acquire Wagner


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Garlic said:


> Would you recommend his Mahler then? I know it's had mixed reviews. Have you heard his Bruckner's 8th?


Not all of it, perhaps, and maybe not as a first choice, but he always turns in an interesting second perspective. His Sixth, Seventh, and Ninth are particularly recommended.

I have heard his Bruckner 8th. It is an excellent reading as I recall, but it's been a few years. I've also heard a bootleg recording of him conducting the 9th, which he hasn't done commercially.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

The Bruckner IX is on you-t 
Salzburg 



Los Angeles


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Manok said:


> I would not want to live in a world with no tonality....


... but _you do _


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

His Handel is as good as Stockhausen's Mozart.


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Very Senior Member said:


> I rate Boulez very highly as a conductor. I'm not so familar with his compositional work but what little I've heard I like it a lot. For example there was a good performance of Dérive 2 (a piece for small orchestra) on the Proms a couple of days ago. I thought both the work itself and its performance under Barenboim's baton was excellent. I shall be delving further into Boulez's compositions.


I was at that concert  The original version is roughly half an hour and I can say it kept me interested for about that. The revised version which was performed took about 50 minutes...read previous sentence. What I was surprised about was the amount of melody in it - not 'traditional' melody ala Mozart, Chopin and fair enough, we shouldn't expect that - but it was there.


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

I was at that concert too! A great performance, although there was a fair bit of grumbling about the Boulez where I was sitting. For a while after the performance #Boulez was one of the top tags on twitter! I wish I'd seen the rest of the cycle now, but I wasn't as much of a fan then as I am now.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Guilt by association: if you reject Boulez outright, you might as well reject Messiaen (his big influence) and the whole Debussy/French aesthetic of "tone color" replacing harmonic function, and slide back into some Rameau.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I think one of the most important aspects of Boulez's music are the "musical gestures". Boulez's music can be understood as a dialectic of gesture and response to that gesture.
In order to appreciate Boulez's music, it's useful to identificate the gestures first. In this example, they are quite obvious:






The ensemble sets a mournful tone, as a procession of mourners, talking to each other and lamenting altogether. From time to time, you can hear the highlight of a group of those mourners and to listen to their laments more clearly. Also, from time to time, you can hear the devastating and lyrical lament of a particular mourner (the oboe for example).
Of course, tone color is a crucial thing which gives identity to the gesture.

In the case of the first movement of the Second Piano Sonata, you have the same things, but in a very dense fabric. It's a masterpiece of gesture and counter-gesture:






For example, the gesture from 0:20 to 0:23 and the counter-gesture from 0:23 to 0:25. At least for me, that was an important thing which opened the piece for me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

aleazk said:


> I think one of the most important aspects of Boulez's music is the "musical gesture". Boulez's music can be understood as a dialectic of gesture and response to that gesture.
> In order to appreciate Boulez's music, it's useful to identificate the gestures first.
> 
> The ensemble sets a mournful tone, as a procession of mourners, talking to each other and lamenting altogether. From time to time, you can hear the highlight of a group of those mourners and to listen to their laments more clearly. Also, from time to time, you can hear the devastating and lyrical lament of a particular mourner (the oboe for example).
> ...


That's right on the money, as far as understanding Boulez. The "gestures" are like what in Messiaen's music are "sonic entities" which are to be apprehended as pure visceral tone-color, without the baggage of harmonic 'function' encumbering them or suggesting a goal, resolution, or 'meaning' in a harmonic sense. Much of Debussy is like this, when he wanders...although, admittedly, Debussy and Messian are easier to swallow.

I can't resist pointing out the "Eastern" way of thinking this represents, as is evidenced by the French preoccupation of exoticism, especially evident in Messiaen's influence from Java and India. Then, I can't resist dragging John Cage into all of this, well as the minimalist composers Lamont Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, and Steve Reich. It seems that this blanket rejection of Boulez has more far-reaching implications than a rejection of serial thinking, but a whole rejection of non-Western approaches to art in general. You might as well reject Matisse and Picasso while you're at it. Of course, my attitude is shaped by a desire to more deeply comprehend art, and see all things as interconnected. That's probably one of my "eastern conceits" at work.

But when I hear Messiaen's "Rhythmic Etudes" side by side with Boulez' "Structures" and Cage's "Music for Keyboard" (these latter two available on a Hat Art CD), then my immediate visceral impression is more identified with "empty space in the moment" than it is with a modernist alienation-effect. But that's just me, and what I bring to the encounter, which I hope is more substantial than an off-the-wall rejection.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> That's right on the money, as far as understanding Boulez. The "gestures" are like what in Messiaen's music are "sonic entities" which are to be apprehended as pure visceral tone-color, without the baggage of harmonic 'function' encumbering them or suggesting a goal, resolution, or 'meaning' in a harmonic sense. Much of Debussy is like this, when he wanders...although, admittedly, Debussy and Messian are easier to swallow.
> 
> I can't resist pointing out the "Eastern" way of thinking this represents, as is evidenced by the French preoccupation of exoticism, especially evident in Messiaen's influence from Java and India. Then, I can't resist dragging John Cage into all of this, well as the minimalist composers Lamont Young, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, and Steve Reich. It seems that this blanket rejection of Boulez has more far-reaching implications than a rejection of serial thinking, but a whole rejection of non-Western approaches to art in general. You might as well reject Matisse and Picasso while you're at it. Of course, my attitude is shaped by a desire to more deeply comprehend art, and see all things as interconnected. That's probably one of my "eastern conceits" at work.
> 
> But when I hear Messiaen's "Rhythmic Etudes" side by side with Boulez' "Structures" and Cage's "Music for Keyboard" (these latter two available on a Hat Art CD), then my immediate visceral impression is more identified with "empty space in the moment" than it is with a modernist alienation-effect. But that's just me, and what I bring to the encounter, which I hope is more substantial than an off-the-wall rejection.


Indeed, certainly it's influenced by non-Western thinking. That's what I like of composers like Boulez. They indeed use some components of the traditional, Western, "structure-system" approach to music (in the case of Boulez, serialism). But they mix it with these non-Western ideas of the pure gesture as an entity of its own, thus creating very rich and complex music.
Also, it's interesting to note that Boulez was also influenced by Webern and his "symmetry" in the phrasing. Curiously, Webern developed the technique by noticing symmetries in the tone rows he used. It seems that he developed himself a similar notion of gesture in music but through taking the Western analytical approach to a further level. Do you know if Webern was influenced by non-Western ideas?.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Thanks for that 1995 Boulez video, aleazk. I thoroughly enjoyed his humor and sharing.

One aspect of the "interview" he may have sold himself short on (maybe he was intentionally being modest, so as not to derail the occasion's joviality), was the comparison of a '60's recording versus '90's, and him preferring the latter. On playback, it *was* easy to hear the differences of dynamics.

In addition to this "modesty" and admitted change as conductor and organizer, I think recording and listening change choices/preferences have to be considered (especially over 25 years) as agents of change for a production. For instance, spot micing and detail. Aside, the interpretation can remain valid, as IMO it does in this case.

LSS, I have no divide for his Sony and DG. Some work for me, some don't.

Thanks again. :tiphat:


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I just thought I'd add this wonderful video:






Poor man apparently had shingles so was very light sensitive but is pretty awesome anyway


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Do you know if Webern was influenced by non-Western ideas?.


I don't know about that, but I do know his studies of earlier music like Schutz's (long before the Baroque/Renaissance revival) had a profound effect on his approach.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

dgee said:


> I just thought I'd add this wonderful video:
> 
> Poor man apparently had shingles so was very light sensitive but is pretty awesome anyway


Wow, that was interesting. As far as shingles, I'm amazed he could function. When I had it, I could hardly move - it felt like I was wrapped in barbed wire.


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> ... but he always turns in an interesting second perspective.


And this is precisely what I like about his conducting. I came to Boulez as a conductor very late in my listening career and find he illuminates aspects of many works that I am very familiar with that give me the same sense of discovery and enjoyment as when I first heard them.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Only thing missing is the Energy Dome. 

View attachment 29302


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

aleazk said:


> Indeed, certainly it's influenced by non-Western thinking. That's what I like of composers like Boulez. They indeed use some components of the traditional, Western, "structure-system" approach to music (in the case of Boulez, serialism). But they mix it with these non-Western ideas of the pure gesture as an entity of its own, thus creating very rich and complex music.
> Also, it's interesting to note that Boulez was also influenced by Webern and his "symmetry" in the phrasing. Curiously, Webern developed the technique by noticing symmetries in the tone rows he used. It seems that he developed himself a similar notion of gesture in music but through taking the Western analytical approach to a further level. Do you know if Webern was influenced by non-Western ideas?.


It's a very intriguing thought. My first thought was of the Beethoven's Ninth finale, with its "all men are one" sentiment, possibly influenced by Masonic thought. Then, in the Germanic thread, we have Schopenhauer, who was definitely influenced by Eastern and Buddhistic thought; and this gave rise to Nietzshe. If one wanted to pursue this line of thought, I'm sure a quite credible case could be made.


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## isridgewell (Jul 2, 2013)

I admire Boulez very much.

As a conductor his Bruckner 8 live with the Vienna Phil is superb. As a composer try the Ritual Fragment In Memory of Bruno Maderna.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mensch said:


> The problem with Boulez is that music before the 20th century doesn't seem to exist to him.


Which is why, in my twenties, I heard him conduct a program with an early Schubert symphony (If recall is correct it was no. 3) -- done with a reduced number of players long before the prominence of HIP practice -- alongside the Ravel Ma Mere L'Oye suite, and Debussy's La Mer.

Each rendering was both marvelous to hear and revelatory, the program again, overall, seriously intelligent, the inclusion of the Schubert part of that very intelligent program planning.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yes, of the more obscure Boulez conducting releases, Columbia/Sony released a remastering of Boulez conducting Water Music. It sort of went under the radar at the time of its original release.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> Only thing missing is the Energy Dome.
> 
> View attachment 29302


That's hilarious.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Yeah, the sunglasses are, but his conducting makes more sense to me rhythmically to me than most other conductors. At least he seems to be keeping the beat. He is rather fascistic-looking, though. He probably wanted to look really Germanic just to irritate the French.


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