# What if Scrooge story became reality?



## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

There’s a thought that has come to my mind since I saw that picture of Polednice’s other identity: “Scrooge gingerbread” or something like that it was. I’ve been wondering, what would happen to all of us if that Dickens’ story became true?

Imagine that some envoy from Heaven with the ability to see your conscience comes to see you and shows you all your sins and all the good things you could have done but you didn’t throughout your whole life, and the consequences of it all.

What would you do? Would you repent? Would you make the firm resolution to change your life? Assuming that you’re not a religious person, would you convert or on the contrary try to desperately find a scientific explanation? What do you think?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I would immediately admit myself to a psychiatric ward.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Wouldn't we have to have a preliminary spectral visit from someone who represented the Jacob Marley in our lives first? I can't think of an equivalent in my case so hopefully the other three spirits would leave me alone! 

I loved the reversal of the story in Blackadder Christmas Carol. For any non-UK member unfamiliar with it it's a one-off TV comedy about a transparently kind shopkeeper who's reduced to penury on xmas eve by people taking advantage of his good nature with false sob-stories (first line: Blackadder, out of picture, is heard in the street shouting 'HUMBUG! HUMBUG!' When he comes into shot he's openly proffering to passers-by a bag of the mint confectionery of the same name). After he's bled dry by a succession of people taking his money, presents and food (including a visit by a grasping Queen Victoria and Prince Albert) a night-time visit by one of the xmas spirits convinces him to become an absolute ******* from now on and get his own back on the people who have systematically ripped him off during the course of the day.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I would plainly tell it to **** off. Society doesn't want me to do good things, it wants me to stay cooped up in my room where it can't see my non-women's-magazine-approved face.

As for the religion thing; I think that there could be some sentience involved in the beginnings of this universe, but I think it much more likely that, if there is a creator, it was just a by product of a natural bodily function of that being and they are probably unaware of their creation.

In summary; wouldn't repent, wouldn't care, would ask to be left alone.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

pollux said:


> [...]
> Imagine that some envoy from Heaven with the ability to see your conscience comes to see you and shows you all your sins and all the good things you could have done but you didn't throughout your whole life
> [...]


My memory, which in general is not good, functions quite efficiently as a substitute for that envoy. The French phrase _'mille regrets'_ (or something resembling that) fairly describes my situation.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Here's my promised continuation of the thread.

I was reminding you of the Scrooge story because it is exactly what is going to happen soon. In the mid 60s an apparition of the Holy Virgin took place in Garabandal (northern Spain) where she prophetized a foregoing event, which she called "The Warning", which, preceded by an spectacular though harmless event in the sky, will consist in a mystical experience where God the Son will show all mankind their sins in order to repent and turn back to Him. It will be a glimpse of what the Final Judgement will be, but with no judgement at all. It will be an unprecedented expression of God's Divine Mercy, which should be welcome with great joy by every single person in the world.

Currently, there are a number of visionaries around the world who are being told the same things. I have been lucky enough to get to know one of them, and indirectly, have had notice about four more. Not only that, I myself have received messages from Christ through the visionary I know.

This event is related to the End of Times (not the End of the World) and Christ's Second Coming, which are to be witnessed by this generation. Particularly, there is one British visionary who is supposed to be the End-of-Times visionary. She is now revealing to the world all the secrets of the Book of Revelation. Her messages can be found on the Internet.

All this stuff has absolutely nothing to do with Mayan prophecies or things like that, in which I have no interest at all. All the messages that have been made public are full of wisdom and fully compliant with the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, to which I'm proud to pertain.

The Warning is here now, so all you better be prepared for it. I repeat that this event will have nothing to do with judgement, but with Mercy. Exactly as in the Scrooge story.

OK. Now I prepare myself for the bashing.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont think so.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont think so.


You don't think that this can be possible. Now I ask you, wouldn't it be great if it could? You know, God manifesting himself in all his greatness, in a way that he couldn't be denied any more?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont think so. It would force me behave and adhere to a set of morals and way of life I consider wrong and unethical, under threat of eternal torture.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

That could never be the case. Supposing that what I tell is true, what you would see is his infinite righteousness and love, and accordingly, how wrong your/our behaviour was. There is no such thing as a bad God.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Well the god in the bible seems like a right jerk.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Have you read the Bible? Are you referring to Jesus Christ?


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> That could never be the case. Supposing that what I tell is true, what you would see is his infinite righteousness and love, and accordingly, how wrong your/our behaviour was. There is no such thing as a bad God.


You cannot know with certainty that a God must be good. It is quite conceivable that, if a Creator existed, he could be an evil one masquerading as a loving one in order to get mankind to do bad things. You have no way of determining otherwise because his power would be such that you could not tell the difference between a real and a fake loving God. As such, I maintain that the existence of a God is irrelevant to human morality - if there is an empirical God issuing demands, we owe it to the happiness of our species to ignore his commands, and find out for ourselves what works for human civilization.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

From a philosophical point of view, the key thing is knowing that goodness and existence are both the same thing. I know that God is good because he's pure existence. I know that God loves me because he created me in his image and in his likeness, that is, as an immortal being.

From a teological point of view I know that he's good by revelation, particularly by the person of the God-made-man, Jesus Christ.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

pollux said:


> That could never be the case. Supposing that what I tell is true, what you would see is his infinite righteousness and love, and accordingly, how wrong your/our behaviour was. There is no such thing as a bad God.


What you mean is that once god has revealed himself, everyone must convert and become a good christian as there is no other conceivable option. That sounds to me like a 'Brave New World'.

Now where are you getting the philosophy that goodness and existence are the same thing? The theological argument can be dismissed here, as theology is a science built on an assumption.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> From a philosophical point of view, the key thing is knowing that goodness and existence are both the same thing.


That is convenient hokum.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> What you mean is that once god has revealed himself, everyone must convert and become a good christian as there is no other conceivable option. That sounds to me like a 'Brave New World'.


Yes, I personally think that this should be the only conceivable option. Sadly, there will be many people who won't take that path, as human free will will remain untouched.

By the way, I can't see what's the problem. Aren't, those of you so devoted to human reasoning, always looking for evidence? That should be the most powerful evidence you could ever dream about!



> Now where are you getting the philosophy that goodness and existence are the same thing?


See my next post



> The theological argument can be dismissed here, as theology is a science built on an assumption.


I was telling you what demonstrates these things to me. So I won't ever dismiss this most important theological fact. Obviously demonstrating things to others is a much harder work.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> That is convenient hokum.


Hokum? Let me look for it in the dictionary: "paparruchas", nice word in Spanish, kind of odd. I never use that word. 

Well, I think it's pretty easy to understand, when you consider your own existence. At least mine makes me infinitely happy, despite of the circumstances that may surround me. Don't you like to exist? Isn't it the best thing you can think of? Furthermore, how could you think about anything if you didn't exist?

Besides, morality comes from existence. It is because of my human existence that I have the right to continue living, no other additives are needed. And so happens with all created things.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> Hokum? Let me look for it in the dictionary: "paparruchas", nice word in Spanish, kind of odd. I never use that word.
> 
> Well, I think it's pretty easy to understand, when you consider your own existence. At least mine makes me infinitely happy, despite of the circumstances that may surround me. Don't you like to exist? Isn't it the best thing you can think of? Furthermore, how could you think about anything if you didn't exist?
> 
> Besides, morality comes from existence. It is because of my human existence that I have the right to continue living, no other additives are needed. And so happens with all created things.


This is the most insanely twisted logic.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Given incontrovertible evidence of gods existence, I would empirically know god to exist. That is not to say that I would switch to the christian morality system, large aspects of which I currently find reprehensible. But why bother speaking in such hypotheticals? If he is to show himself as you predict, then he will, if he doesnt - how will that affect _your_ faith?

I am happy to exist and thrive on my existence, but I have come to this through a philosophy borne out of a rejection of god. Camus compared human existence to the struggle of Sisyphus and concluded "The struggle itself...is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.". The need for such a statement arose from a need for meaning and clarity in a world view without a deity.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Given incontrovertible evidence of gods existence, I would empirically know god to exist. That is not to say that I would switch to , large aspects of which I currently find reprehensible. But why bother speaking in such hypotheticals? If he is to show himself as you predict, then he will, if he doesnt - how will that affect _your_ faith?
> 
> I am happy to exist and thrive on my existence, but I have come to this through a philosophy borne out of a rejection of god. Camus compared human existence to the struggle of Sisyphus and concluded "The struggle itself...is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.". The need for such a statement arose from a need for meaning and clarity in a world view without a deity.


I'm afraid God's existence and the christian morality system go all in the same pack. You'll have evidence of them at the same time.

Nobody is forcing you to speak about anything, hypothetical or not. Besides, as you yourself are stating, you are admitting the possibility. I congratulate you for that.

"A philosophy borne out of a rejection of god", that sounds too hard. I cannot congratulate you for that. I can't understand why you should choose Camus' path, that basically consists in accepting the absence of meaning in your life, without first giving a chance to beliefs that can give true meaning to your life. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Yes, I have read "The Myth of Sisyphus". The difference is that I have read the Bible too.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Are all of these magical happenings going to happen in our life-times? If so, try not to be too down-trodden when they don't occur. You've always got the opportunity to imbue your life with real meaning.


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

pollux said:


> There's a thought that has come to my mind since I saw that picture of Polednice's other identity: "Scrooge gingerbread" or something like that it was. I've been wondering, what would happen to all of us if that Dickens' story became true?
> 
> Imagine that some envoy from Heaven with the ability to see your conscience comes to see you and shows you all your sins and all the good things you could have done but you didn't throughout your whole life, and the consequences of it all.
> 
> What would you do? Would you repent? Would you make the firm resolution to change your life? Assuming that you're not a religious person, would you convert or on the contrary try to desperately find a scientific explanation? What do you think?


I don't think I would have survived the appearance of *Jacob Marley* thus dying on the spot. I would like to think that I would have been a nice enough person for that not to happen to me but if it did. Seeing as you brought in the scientific explanation option I would most likely lay off the mulled wine but buy loads of toys for orphans (just in case). :angel:


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Are all of these magical happenings going to happen in our life-times? If so, try not to be too down-trodden when they don't occur. You've always got the opportunity to imbue your life with real meaning.


The good news about happiness and truth is that they always go together. Wouldn't it be so, rest assured that my choice would always be for happiness. Truth doesn't make any sense if it doesn't lead you to happiness.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> The good news about happiness and truth is that they always go together. Wouldn't it be so, rest assured that my choice would always be for happiness. Truth doesn't make any sense if it doesn't lead you to happiness.


Did you read that in a fortune cookie? I know human strife to be true; it does not make me happy.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

pollux said:


> What would you do? Would you repent? Would you make the firm resolution to change your life? Assuming that you're not a religious person, would you convert or on the contrary try to desperately find a scientific explanation? What do you think?


You know, i clearly remember, probably at around 4 years of age (before entering school), instinctively knowing that Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, God, etc. were all make believe; that is, before knowing what science even was...


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Did you read that in a fortune cookie? I know human strife to be true; it does not make me happy.


Well, I was talking about philosophical truth, as I'm sure you know.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Philip said:


> You know, i clearly remember, probably at around 4 years of age (before entering school), instinctively knowing that Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, God, etc. were all make believe; that is, before knowing what science even was...


There is a well-known Spanish writer, Ana María Matute who, when she was asked why she had stopped being an atheist, she answered: "because I realised it was soooooooo boring" (the oos are a personal addition). What a wonderful, unsophisticated answer.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> Well, I was talking about philosophical truth, as I'm sure you know.


And how do you know with such curious certainty what is philosophically _true_? Intuition? Revelation? The circularity begins.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> And how do you know with such curious certainty what is philosophically _true_? Intuition? Revelation? The circularity begins.


The Truth (in uppercase, you can use the shift buttons at both sides of your keyboard) is God. Then come many other truths (in lowercase, you can now release the button). Curiously enough, the Truth is easier to attain than the other truths. Once you rely on it, you have more freedom to do whatever you want. You can devote yourself to philosophy, science, daily work or simply do good deeds.

Knowing of God's existence is above all a moral issue. Did it not imply a moral responsibility, I'm sure everyone in the world would believe in his existence.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> The Truth (in uppercase, you can use the shift buttons at both sides of your keyboard) is God. Then come many other truths (in lowercase, you can now release the button). Curiously enough, the Truth is easier to attain than the other truths. Once you rely on it, you have more freedom to do whatever you want. You can devote yourself to philosophy, science, daily work or simply do good deeds.
> 
> Knowing of God's existence is above all a moral issue. Did it not imply a moral responsibility, I'm sure everyone in the world would believe in his existence.


I did ask _how_ you know this, not more of what you say you know. Do you have any means of knowing that God exists other than that God told you he does?


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Oh come on, "did it not imply a moral responsibility im sure everyone would believe in god". You mean to say all atheists are too lazy to live righteously and therefore choose the easy and evil path of atheism. Im a better person than many christians and I dont have my moral code written on some tablets and enforced by threat of eternal punishment.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> Oh come on, "did it not imply a moral responsibility im sure everyone would believe in god". You mean to say all atheists are too lazy to live righteously and therefore choose the easy and evil path of atheism. Im a better person than many christians and I dont have my moral code written on some tablets and enforced by threat of eternal punishment.


I don't know you, so I can't tell if you're a better person than many christians or not. Sadly, it's not that difficult to be a better person than some christians, including myself. What I do know, is that being a christian makes me a better person than I would be otherwise. About eternal punishment, yes, I believe in it, but it doesn't work the way you think. It's so easy to make a caricature of things you don't like so you can easily dismiss them thereafter.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I do actually bother getting the facts, so tell me how you believe the eternal punishment works?


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> I did ask _how_ you know this, not more of what you say you know. Do you have any means of knowing that God exists other than that God told you he does?


I know what you asked, but you did it in a way a little bit more ill-intentioned. I choose to reply to ill-intentioned questioning in the way I want. Now that you ask in a more reasonable way, I will answer but, as I know that you're going to reply to every single comma, I'll do it by steps.

The first step is considering my soul as a different thing than matter. This I know by intuition.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> I know what you asked, but you did it in a way a little bit more ill-intentioned. I choose to reply to ill-intentioned questioning in the way I want. Now that you ask in a more reasonable way, I will answer but, as I know that you're going to reply to every single comma, I'll do it by steps.
> 
> The first step is considering my soul as a different thing than matter. This I know by intuition.


Is there a reason you think your intuition is more reliable than those whose intuition informs them that they have no souls?


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Is there a reason you think your intuition is more reliable than those whose intuition informs them that they have no souls?


Intuition in philosophical terms means something like "direct knowledge", without any reasoning needed. So, I can't think how it could be possible that other people didn't have that same knowledge. Obviously, you will tell me you don't have. The problem here is that, due to human free will, even intuition can be dismissed in favour of other considerations. You tell me, what other considerations make you dismiss your own intuition?


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> I do actually bother getting the facts, so tell me how you believe the eternal punishment works?


The Ten Commandments and other rules of behaviour aren't God's whim. Good and evil are consubstancial to nature, and particularly to human free will. So, the commandments are what they are because they couldn't be otherwise.

When God condemns a soul, he does it against his own desire and, mostly important, against his own love. God desperately loves every single soul and will do whatever is in his hands to save them. But, beyond death, he simply can't avoid eternal punishment. So, it's not God who condemns the souls. They choose their own path to damnation.

Now, let's take a look at the other side of the coin. There we have Heaven. Heaven is not a boring place where we all are supposed to experience quietness and anything else. Heaven is the fulfilment of all the incomplete aspirations we have here on earth, that is, love, beauty and knowledge. So, we know what it's all about.

Considering all the above, what makes you think that my acts on earth are mostly based on fear of Hell and not on longing for Heaven? For longing for Heaven and human aspirations are the same thing.


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

pollux said:


> There is a well-known Spanish writer, Ana María Matute who, when she was asked why she had stopped being an atheist, she answered: "because I realised it was soooooooo boring" (the oos are a personal addition). What a wonderful, unsophisticated answer.


If atheism is boring to you, you're not doing it right!


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> Intuition in philosophical terms means something like "direct knowledge", without any reasoning needed.


Any belief on the nature of the universe requires reasoning. I also don't buy that definition of "intuition" - very slippery, and extremely convenient. Can't we all state anything and claim it is direct knowledge that doesn't require reasoning? It is then very disingenuous of you to say that _my_ "intuition" is tainted by other considerations. By that logic, I claim that it is _your_ intuition which is marred, and _my_ direct knowledge is purer.

See? This gets us nowhere - it's a very useless way of thinking, though it helps you validate everything you might wish validated.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Any belief on the nature of the universe requires reasoning. I also don't buy that definition of "intuition" - very slippery, and extremely convenient.


I'm not sure of what you're saying. Do yo mean that I invented that meaning of the word? It appears in the dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/intuition

You can think that such a thing cannot exist. But, as you can see, the people that make your dictionaries think otherwise.

On the other hand, make no mistakes. I was trying to explain my philosophical approach to the problem. Not trying to demonstrate it to you. Would you have asked me: "How can I find God?" I would have suggested another completely different approach.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Here's a very, very, very, very, very important thing to recognise.

Intuition: "The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes; immediate cognition." - The _sense_ of knowing without reason does _not_ mean that the intuition is correct.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Hi, Polednice

I have just read your first post in the "absolute truth" thread. I'm quite interested in this section



Polednice said:


> b) An acknowledgement of there being no absolute truths does not mean that I think people should reject a deity if it could be shown that a deity exists. What I would contend is that any followers of such a deity could only do so out of love, appreciation, fear, or some other array of emotions - _not_ because anything the deity demands is absolutely true.


But I'm not sure to understand the second part "What I would contend..." You know, my English is what it is. Could you please explain it in other words?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Scrooge story is reality. It's called your conscience. Of course Mr. Scrooge ignored his own due to selfishness until his heart was as hard a stone. But in real life ghosts don't come to visit and admonish us for our bad behavior. 

Anyway, the story pertains to business relationships, so it's Bob Cratchit who should tell Scrooge to ****** off, and then precede to muster up the courage to get out and find another job. Ah, if only life was this simple!


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> But I'm not sure to understand the second part "What I would contend..." You know, my English is what it is. Could you please explain it in other words?


My point, given the context of everything else I said, was that even if I and everyone else could be shown that a God definitely exists, our reasons for following his commands could _not_ logically be because they are a form of absolute truth. We could follow them because we love him, appreciate him, fear him, want paradise, don't want hell - all kinds of reasons - but the existence of a God does not necessitate that the God is arbiter of absolute moral truths.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Fantastic! Now, forget about absolute truth. Let's talk about love. Suppose that God shows his existence to you not through imposing you anything but through his love. This way, if your approach is sincere, you should begin to take him more into consideration. Right?


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

pollux said:


> Fantastic! Now, forget about absolute truth. Let's talk about love. Suppose that God shows his existence to you not through imposing you anything but through his love. This way, if your approach is sincere, you should begin to take him more into consideration. Right?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Ah, if only life was this simple!


If only there were better jobs for the Bob Cratchits of the world.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

There are two main reasons why some atheists hate so much someone they claim no to believe in. One is that they are anything but sure that God doesn't exist, and the second is simply because they are false atheists. They hate God, and want others to hate him too.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont hate god. I am dissapointed in what belief in him has caused in the world.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I dont hate god, in fact, I dont believe he exists. I dont even hate the idea of him. I am just dissapointed in what his followers have done to the world.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont hate god, in fact, I dont believe he exists. I dont even hate the idea of him. I am just dissapointed in what his followers have done to the world.


I wasn't referring to you. On the contrary, I greatly appreciate your posts in this thread. As for the last part of your statement, never expect me to agree with that. I'm afraid that assertion comes from ignorance. You have chosen to base your thinking on Christianism following what Christianism enemies say. This may be a comfortable option in today's world, but it will always be an unwise option all the same.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

pollux said:


> There are two main reasons why some atheists hate so much someone they claim no to believe in. One is that they are anything but sure that God doesn't exist, and the second is simply because they are false atheists. They hate God, and want others to hate him too.


Truthfully, this is precisely inverted. Theists are anything but sure that their gods exist, and that's why they want the arguments. _Evidence that Demands a Verdict_ and all that. It's a search for self-reassurance: you'd like to remain a member of that community, and you need intellectual validation.

In your particular case, it seems like you've studied a little Thomism. If so, that is a really powerful intellectual system and you'd want to do it more justice than this.

And the final point of interest in this quote is the idea that atheists hate "God" or, as I'd prefer to say, the gods. (After all, Jehovah isn't the only one that we don't believe in.) Why do Christians so often accuse us of this? Could it be another case of projection? That's my best guess.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

science said:


> If only there were better jobs for the Bob Cratchits of the world.


Ah, but then companies like Nike wouldn't have an endless supply of desperate people to exploit.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

science said:


> Truthfully, this is precisely inverted. Theists are anything but sure that their gods exist, and that's why they want the arguments. _Evidence that Demands a Verdict_ and all that. It's a search for self-reassurance: you'd like to remain a member of that community, and you need intellectual validation.
> 
> In your particular case, it seems like you've studied a little Thomism. If so, that is a really powerful intellectual system and you'd want to do it more justice than this.
> 
> And the final point of interest in this quote is the idea that atheists hate "God" or, as I'd prefer to say, the gods. (After all, Jehovah isn't the only one that we don't believe in.) Why do Christians so often accuse us of this? Could it be another case of projection? That's my best guess.


I wasn't referring to you either. If you think I'm a thomist, you should understand that I carefully select the words I use. When I say "some" I mean "some", not "all". So, your petulance is bigger than mine in this case, as you haven't said "some theists".


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

pollux said:


> I wasn't referring to you either. If you think I'm a thomist, you should understand that I carefully select the words I use. When I say "some" I mean "some", not "all". So, your petulance is bigger than mine in this case, as you haven't said "some theists".


My _petulance_ is bigger than yours? Well, I wasn't going to brag... If that's a point you want to score, I'll surrender it.

I would guess that "many" would be more accurate rather than "some" theists not being confident that any gods exist, and then only some want the arguments. But it doesn't make a big difference to me. The main points stand.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Ah, but then companies like Nike wouldn't have an endless supply of desperate people to exploit.


Unfortunately perhaps, for a lot of people a company like Nike is their best hope for now. Take Nike away, and it's back to scavenging the dumps, or prostitution.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Well I'll stop short of nominating Nike for a humanitarian award! But there are a number of other factors forcing these citizens to seek work in sweatshops and the squalid cities. Companies like Monsanto working diligently no monopolize agribusiness through genetic engineering, for one example.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Well I'll stop short of nominating Nike for a humanitarian award! But there are a number of other factors forcing these citizens to seek work in sweatshops and the squalid cities. Companies like Monsanto working diligently no monopolize agribusiness through genetic engineering, for one example.


I'm a big fan of "Frankenfoods," but in other respects - tariffs, subsidies - the developed world definitely doesn't play fair on agriculture.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No, and people would be astounded if they new how many Indian farmers have committed suicide in the past 20 years or so. Vandana Shiva has been on a crusade against the destructive practices of industrial agribusiness for many years now.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> Fantastic! Now, forget about absolute truth. Let's talk about love. Suppose that God shows his existence to you not through imposing you anything but through his love. This way, if your approach is sincere, you should begin to take him more into consideration. Right?


Any god ought to be considered, just not taken at face value. The Christian god would not qualify as loving, by the way. I could dream up a hundred more pleasant characters.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> Any god ought to be considered, just not taken at face value. The Christian god would not qualify as loving, by the way. I could dream up a hundred more pleasant characters.


Would Jesus Christ not qualify as loving?
-----------------------

Now, you're speaking about the God I believe in, right? The God whose love for me has made me immensely happy since I was a child. The God whose love has been an evident presence every single day in my life.

So, because I have had some experience of this love that you deny, I am qualified to transmit you a promise that He has recently made through the messages I spoke about. He's desperately seeking for every one's love. He has promised every single non-believer in the world that he would show his existence to them through love. In order to do so, you only have to say this prayer (or you can use your own words if you prefer).

(Needless to say, in order to this to work you must be really wanting Him to show you his love. So, please, abstain to do easy jokes on this subject).

"God if you are the truth reveal to me the sign of your love. Open my heart to receive guidance. If you exist let me feel your love so I can see the truth. Pray for me now"

I have no doubt that you are sincere when you say that you're looking for truth and wanting for love. So, if you appreciate to any degree the time I have spent in this thread, which has cost me big effort, do me a favour. Simply, sincerely say this prayer. It can do you no harm.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> Would Jesus Christ not qualify as loving?
> -----------------------
> 
> Now, you're speaking about the God I believe in, right? The God whose love for me has made me immensely happy since I was a child. The God whose love has been an evident presence every single day in my life.
> ...


A truly universally loving God would offer revelation without catches. That prayer demands that I desire and believe in something which, as an atheist, I don't think is a logical possibility. That's what I'd call unfair. I could say the prayer, but I couldn't trick myself into wanting the Christian God to exist. I think that would be unfortunate.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> A truly universally loving God would offer revelation without catches. That prayer demands that I desire and believe in something which, as an atheist, I don't think is a logical possibility. That's what I'd call unfair. I could say the prayer, but I couldn't trick myself into wanting the Christian God to exist. I think that would be unfortunate.


Without catches you say?

You're talking about a God who made an alliance with man from the begining of times, revelated himself to the world from the very beginning through his Word, made himself man to teach us through example, died in the most cruel manner for the sins of us all, resurrected to show us that he will always be the king of universe, gave us his Church and Sacraments so we could live thereafter in accordance to His Holy Will!

Without catches! What things to hear! Don't believe in all those thing if you don't want to, but don't offend me with such statements! Please!


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## Philip (Mar 22, 2011)

If you look for something hard enough you'll find it......


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

pollux said:


> Without catches you say?
> 
> You're talking about a God who made an alliance with man from the begining of times, revelated himself to the world from the very beginning through his Word, made himself man to teach us through example, died in the most cruel manner for the sins of us all, resurrected to show us that he will always be the king of universe, gave us his Church and Sacraments so we could live thereafter in accordance to His Holy Will!
> 
> Without catches! What things to hear! Don't believe in all those thing if you don't want to, but don't offend me with such statements! Please!


You're talking about a God who punished his creation for satisfying its curiosity, who revealed himself to the illiterate Middle East 2,000 years ago out of a total human history of about 200,000 years, who either sets a barbaric example with the Old Testament or deliberately sets out to confuse with a text that purports to be part-metaphorical, part-literal, who made himself the centre of a ritual sacrifice - an act incompatible with civilised society - and who refuses to this very day to make himself obvious because everywhere we turn, when the world is viewed rationally, he is nowhere to be found.


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## pollux (Nov 11, 2011)

Polednice said:


> You're talking about a God who punished his creation for satisfying its curiosity, who revealed himself to the illiterate Middle East 2,000 years ago out of a total human history of about 200,000 years, who either sets a barbaric example with the Old Testament or deliberately sets out to confuse with a text that purports to be part-metaphorical, part-literal, who made himself the centre of a ritual sacrifice - an act incompatible with civilised society - and who refuses to this very day to make himself obvious because everywhere we turn, when the world is viewed rationally, he is nowhere to be found.


I was waiting for your more-than-expectable reply. Ok, boy, with such an extraordinarily lucid speech, I must surrender. I quit.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Say What?


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