# What about Hip-Hop?



## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

I'm pretty interested in the dynamics between listening to hip-hop and classical music. In the past 6 months I went from hating all rap (hip-hop, whatever you want to call it) unconditionally to greatly enjoying much of the "old school" stuff (Biggie Smalls, NWA, Wutang Clan, Snoop Dogg). I also really ramped up my consumption of classical music in that same period of time. Now I mainly listen to either hip-hop or classical. Despite the inclusion of hip-hop in the tagline for the Non-Classical Music forum, I haven't seen any topics about it.

Essentially, I just want to hear your thoughts, whatever they might be, on hip-hop. Do you think there are common elements that can link rap and classical? What about rappers that use classical music when they rap such as Immortal Technique (try the song Leaving the Past, lyrics include swearing)?

I'm not an expert of rap or classical music. I appreciate any knowledge on offer.


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## Xenakiboy (May 8, 2016)

I can't say I have much opinion on rap but I have a mutual respect for 2pac and Kendrick Lamar, they seem to have been getting at interesting topics from an unconventional angle. But again, I don't have much of an opinion. :tiphat:


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## Biwa (Aug 3, 2015)

Hip Hop is a lot of fun. How about some Trip hop?

I've been listening to this recently...


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I think hip-hop sounds as bad as this hip-hop album cover looks.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

clockworkmurderer said:


> In the past 6 months I went from hating all rap (hip-hop, whatever you want to call it) unconditionally to greatly enjoying much of the "old school" stuff (Biggie Smalls, NWA, Wutang Clan, Snoop Dogg).


I think it would be a good idea to go back the other way


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I think hip-hop sounds as bad as this hip-hop album cover looks.


What did I just click on?...


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mstar said:


> What did I just click on?...


A link to a picture of the cover of Luke Campbell´s second solo album "I Got Skit on My Mind".


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

We've had hip hop threads before. A few of us like it, but those who don't like it are sure to let you know.

Similarities with Classical? Not really. I really like hip-hop tracks with lots of "layering" much the way I like Classical with a lot of density. Rappers don't use proper counterpoint, but Charles Ives didn't always either. But I don't want to strain the

There are also rap pieces that effectively sample Classical:


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

Hip hop, just like any music genre, has its masterpieces (almost all albums of Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar, Beastie Boys, M. I.A., Eminem ) and awful bombs ( almost all albums of 50 Cent, Snoop Dog, Rick Ross ). :angel:


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

I figured I'd be hearing plenty of hatred for the genre but that's not any different than every day life away from the computer. Hate it or love it, there's no denying that it's a very important genre and most of the people I know from my generation listen to mainly hip-hop. Then again, there are plenty of people that listen to country music and I don't pull my punches when expressing my hatred for such. I will continue to listen to the music I enjoy. However, for anyone that wants to continue to post hatred, why not actually say why? Does it offend you? Does it simply grate on your ears and sound like painful attempts at music (this is how I used to feel about it) that should not be allowed? What about free speech and rap? 

Thanks for the replies all


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think it would be a good idea to go back the other way


while I understand the sentiment, I'm interested to know why.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

clockworkmurderer said:


> while I understand the sentiment, I'm interested to know why.


For all the reasons you have mentioned. It is offensive, and it is for the most part a lame parody of music. Besides, you yourself have said that most people in your generation listen to it, so why not rather be a little different than go with what "everybody else" is doing?


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

Ah, but if that were the case, Pink Floyd would never have been popular and I find their music to be awesome too. What about 200 years ago when the average person's music consumption would have consisted of live music only, and that likely infrequently? What would have happened to music then if everyone decided that they needed to be "different?" Rap is an enormous genre, and for every purely offensive idiot that somehow makes money, there's also a dedicated wordsmith writing music about true social issues. Why not take a crack at "The Martyr" by Immortal Technique, a free LP that is all about rising up against oppression? The beats are skillfully crafted and the lyrics are intelligent and meaningful. I used to think that I could never reconcile myself to rap and that it wasn't music because there usually is no "band" and I dismissed it through a desire to avoid the mainstream. However, much of rap is not mainstream and further it is not the same as most other modern music. Rap is more like poetry set to a beat, and as always there are good poets and bad ones. If you can accept the adventure and discovery of classical music in spite of the fact that you're certainly going to come across stuff you don't like, perhaps you might try to look past the songs about misogyny and violence to see that many rappers have or had a real message for the upper class that oppresses them. 

P.S. I have no desire to partake of an emotional argument, rather informed and even keeled discussion.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I have never in my life oppressed anyone, and neither have my ancestors or anyone else I know. And upper class? That's really funny :lol: I think I have another idea as to why some people who know how to appreciate real beauty also listen to rap: so as not to appear politically incorrect. But you are right, getting into arguments about rap on a board dedicated to classical music is not a worthwhile pursuit.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Okay as long as it isn't that eminem chump.


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have never in my life oppressed anyone, and neither have my ancestors or anyone else I know. And upper class? That's really funny :lol: I think I have another idea as to why some people who know how to appreciate real beauty also listen to rap: so as not to appear politically incorrect. But you are right, getting into arguments about rap on a board dedicated to classical music is not a worthwhile pursuit.


I don't see how political correctness factors into this; I would not consider any rap I've ever heard to be politically correct, and I myself laugh at the concept. Life is life, and letting media nonsense control your thoughts through "political correctness" seems a lot like allowing propaganda to take over. Furthermore, oppression certainly exists. I hope you don't think I am accusing you of being an oppressor. However, ignoring the reality of oppression is to be a part of the problem.

That said, we're getting away from the music. I presume that you recognize that without an open mind, discovery of new things is impossible. I have been guilty of a closed mind many times in my life, but I do attempt to avoid doing so because I have been persecuted in the past for possessing a "different viewpoint." In the rural US, the crime of irreligiosity earns you a shunning at best and physical violence at worst, both things I learned personally.

I am not an advocate of going against your own tastes. That makes no sense. I'm not going to start eating chicken feet; I have no taste for them. However, without tasting them, how can I know that I don't like them (they're gristly, if you're wondering)?


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

starthrower, I would disagree. Eminem did a lot for rap with his multi-syllable rhyming. He's technically skilled and a musical pioneer.

contains swearing


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

clockworkmurderer said:


> I am not an advocate of going against your own tastes. That makes no sense. I'm not going to start eating chicken feet; I have no taste for them. However, without tasting them, how can I know that I don't like them (they're gristly, if you're wondering)?


Sure, but it's not like I have never listened to rap. Every once in a while these hip hop threads come up on TC, and I will listen to one or two of the recommended tracks to see whether I will find them as disgusting as all the other rap I had heard before. Makes me feel somehow dirty every single time.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

clockworkmurderer said:


> That said, we're getting away from the music. I presume that you recognize that without an open mind, discovery of new things is impossible. I have been guilty of a closed mind many times in my life, but I do attempt to avoid doing so because I have been persecuted in the past for possessing a "different viewpoint." *In the rural US, the crime of irreligiosity earns you a shunning at best and physical violence at worst, both things I learned personally*.


I've read of things like this before, but never thought this is really possible  You should move over here, to Belarus. This country may not be very wealthy, but we have a lot more spiritual freedom and tolerance than "the land of the free".


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

clockworkmurderer said:


> starthrower, I would disagree. Eminem did a lot for rap with his multi-syllable rhyming. He's technically skilled and a musical pioneer.
> 
> contains swearing


Meh.
****
****
****


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Iean said:


> Hip hop, just like any music genre, has its masterpieces (almost all albums of Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar, Beastie Boys, M. I.A., Eminem ) and awful bombs ( almost all albums of 50 Cent, Snoop Dog, Rick Ross ). :angel:


Hip-hop is terrible...TERRIBLE.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Suckiest music (if you can call it that) that ever sucked, with rap giving it a good run for its money.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I probably still like a few rap/hip-hop tracks that I haven't heard in ages, for nostalgic reasons. I can appreciate it if it's well produced, with a good beat and bassline, but most commercial stuff is extremely annoying (like Eminem and anything with auto-tune effect). I also don't care for the lyrics and the whole superficial image and culture that's attached to it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

This is about as close as I get to litening to rap or hip hop. The difference is that Michael Franti has musical talent. He can write songs with melodies, and he can play the guitar. And he can sing.


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

Morimur said:


> Hip-hop is terrible...TERRIBLE.


And so is Velvet Underground's "Loaded" album :angel:


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

To each their own. Life's varied aspects are what make it so great. However, I still ask those that say they hate hip hop to at least explain their reasoning, rather than jumping directly for a knee-jerk level of hate.


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

starthrower said:


> This is about as close as I get to litening to rap or hip hop. The difference is that Michael Franti has musical talent. He can write songs with melodies, and he can play the guitar. And he can sing.


I used to have these sorts of thoughts. "Rap takes no musical talent. They sit behind a sound table and mess with dials and scratch records. What's hard about that? I could do it." But later on, having actually stopped to listen to the music I was disparaging, I discovered two things: good rap is more focused on lyrics than production, however good rap breeds beats that good lyrics (these are not ballads or pop song lyrics. many rappers don't even put choruses in their songs. rather they use clever word play to surprise the listener with an interesting turn of phrase or unexpected double meaning.) play well with. Many freestyles are a capella or set to a very simple loop. "Musical talent" as such is reserved for the writing of the lyrics and the skill and style of delivery. Often a separate individual does the production, much the same as how most bands don't consist of one person with a pedal operated drum kit, guitar with a bass string strung to it, and a trumpet affixed to the side of their head (though that sounds pretty intriguing now that I've mentioned it). John Frusciante, inarguably a talented guitarist and respected musician has produced rap; he doesn't provide much vocal backup and when he does it's mainly as a part of the beat, filling a space where no lines are being spit.

For these reasons and also the fact that hip hop is not rooted in the same musical tradition as rock and much other modern music leads me to listen to rap in a different way than I listen to, say, Stevie Ray Vaughan with his fast bright blues.

As I said before, to each their own and going against one's own taste is the wrong move. However, I also think that if you listen to music and automatically expect to hear someone shred a guitar, you're limiting yourself because there's so much more out there than just that.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't care about shred. I think artists should use their talents and abilities in the service of their art. Whether it's rap or songwriting, composing, or whatever. Rap and hip hop not being my primary interest, I haven't looked in to it to find out who has something of substance to say, verses the people who are just talking sh#t, and trying to make a bunch of money.


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

That I cannot fault you for. I think we can all agree that artists should use their talent. I'm going to give that Michael Franti song a listen later when I get home as well, just so you know I didn't ignore it.


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

clockworkmurderer said:


> I used to have these sorts of thoughts. "Rap takes no musical talent. They sit behind a sound table and mess with dials and scratch records. What's hard about that? I could do it." But later on, having actually stopped to listen to the music I was disparaging, I discovered two things: good rap is more focused on lyrics than production, however good rap breeds beats that good lyrics (these are not ballads or pop song lyrics. many rappers don't even put choruses in their songs. rather they use clever word play to surprise the listener with an interesting turn of phrase or unexpected double meaning.) play well with. Many freestyles are a capella or set to a very simple loop. "Musical talent" as such is reserved for the writing of the lyrics and the skill and style of delivery. Often a separate individual does the production, much the same as how most bands don't consist of one person with a pedal operated drum kit, guitar with a bass string strung to it, and a trumpet affixed to the side of their head (though that sounds pretty intriguing now that I've mentioned it). John Frusciante, inarguably a talented guitarist and respected musician has produced rap; he doesn't provide much vocal backup and when he does it's mainly as a part of the beat, filling a space where no lines are being spit.
> 
> For these reasons and also the fact that hip hop is not rooted in the same musical tradition as rock and much other modern music leads me to listen to rap in a different way than I listen to, say, Stevie Ray Vaughan with his fast bright blues.
> 
> As I said before, to each their own and going against one's own taste is the wrong move. *However, I also think that if you listen to music and automatically expect to hear someone shred a guitar, you're limiting yourself because there's so much more out there than just that*.


VERY TRUE ! Some people equate the capacity of an artist to play an instrument as "true talent", thus, they consider artists who cannot play the guitar or the piano as "not talented". :angel:


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I've read of things like this before, but never thought this is really possible  You should move over here, to Belarus. This country may not be very wealthy, but we have a lot more spiritual freedom and tolerance than "the land of the free".


In the city many of us americans are regular people, willing to live our lives and let others live theirs. Sadly, there are so many bigots here too, evidenced by donald trump's popularity. I speculate that many of those who would vote for him come from the south. They must all be white too because he has made it clear what he thinks about other ethnicities. I am trying my best to leave this sinking ship to be with my Austrian beauty. ;D

However, this is getting dangerously political. If you want to talk more about this we should start a discussion group or something because I don't want this thread to be deleted over political idiocy on my part or anyone else's.


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

Iean said:


> VERY TRUE ! Some people equate the capacity of an artist to play an instrument as "true talent", thus, they consider artists who cannot play the guitar or the piano as "not talented". :angel:


I have a friend that I can't discuss music with because he always has to be right about it. And whenever I show him any music that has guitar in it, he says he needs to hear real talent and that he doesn't respect it because he can play it. My response?

"Where's your album man? Let me hear the album you put out that's better than these musicians that wrote this one." He shuts up after that.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

clockworkmurderer said:


> That I cannot fault you for. I think we can all agree that artists should use their talent. I'm going to give that Michael Franti song a listen later when I get home as well, just so you know I didn't ignore it.


I like Franti because he is versatile, and he's not afraid to say what's on his mind. And he can write good pop, rock, or reggae style songs. I think his strongest albums are Everyone Deserves Music, and Yell Fire.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

clockworkmurderer said:


> I am trying my best to leave this sinking ship to be with my Austrian beauty. ;D
> 
> However, this is getting dangerously political. If you want to talk more about this we should start a discussion group or something because I don't want this thread to be deleted over political idiocy on my part or anyone else's.


No, I am not particularly interested in talking politics. I will say this much though: I wish for the ship to sink, and for all the good people (and I think you are a good person) to leave before it does. Take good care of your Austrian beauty! And who knows, maybe we will meet one day - in the mountains, where the gods live.

_Auf wolkigen Höhen
wohnen die Götter:
Walhall heisst ihr Saal..._

And that is much better than all hip hop in the world


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I like Franti because he is versatile, and he's not afraid to say what's on his mind. And he can write good pop, rock, or reggae style songs. I think his strongest albums are Everyone Deserves Music, and Yell Fire.


Thank you for this. I really like the song and I think I'll be keeping an eye out for those on cd next time I go to a record store.


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## clockworkmurderer (Apr 15, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> No, I am not particularly interested in talking politics. I will say this much though: I wish for the ship to sink, and for all the good people (and I think you are a good person) to leave before it does. Take good care of your Austrian beauty! And who knows, maybe we will meet one day - in the mountains, where the gods live.
> 
> _Auf wolkigen Höhen
> wohnen die Götter:
> ...


Thank you for considering me a good person.  I do my best each day, and while I make mistakes I don't want to live in the past or persecute anyone or jump to conclusions without careful and rational consideration of all relevant facts available to me. It is also for these reasons that I finally gave up my hatred (I cannot stress this enough, I used to _*hate*_ rap. so much that if someone drove by listening to it at a high volume I would be angry for hours) of hip-hop and tried to approach it as if I had never heard it before. I still sometimes catch myself "knee-jerking" with bad rap that isn't clever or is purely commercial, but I don't want to have a lot of anger in my life and so I try to return to the calmer seas.

I too consider you a good person, and there is nothing wrong with us from holding a friendly disagreement on the subject of hip-hop. 

Now to the poem, which I quite like. My translation is thus:

_From cloudy heights
where dwell the gods
Valhalla calls her hall_

Am I correct? Also, am I correct in thinking that these lines come from Wagner's Siegfried?


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## Iean (Nov 17, 2015)

Because of Starthrower' recommendation on Michael Franti, I listened to the "Yell Fire" album and I must agree that the songs, especially "Sweet Little Lies", will immediately grab the listener with their brilliant lyrics and unforgettable melodies:angel:


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

clockworkmurderer said:


> Now to the poem, which I quite like. My translation is thus:
> 
> _From cloudy heights
> where dwell the gods
> ...


As for the translation, a more correct one would be "Valhalla their hall is called", that is the hall of the gods is called Valhalla. And yes, these lines come from Siegfried. Ever heard that one yet? 

PS. Talking about Wagner translations in a thread about hip hop sure is fun


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2016)

Public decency forbids stating how I really feel about hip-hop, but to suffice it to say I have a visceral hatred of it.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

I'm going back through a bit of hip hop again, I still think To Pimp A Butterfly is one of the best albums I've heard (of any non-classical genre) :angel:


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

In general rap or hip hop are genres I dislike strongly, maybe not even that much for the music but for everything else that is conveyed. It's mostly ideologically quite opposite to what I think gives meaning to life. I hate the values and subculture. On the other hand I believe strongly that talented people can make worthwhile music within every genre (except 'schlagers'). And I have heard some more sophisticated hiphop that isn't that bad (although I forgot the names). Nevertheless I think I like trip hop a whole lot better.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I've been a serial obsessive of a lot of different pathways of music, including many many years spent listening to nothing but rap. 
MF Doom, Yasiin Bey (formerly Mos Def or partnered up with Talib Kweli as Black Star), Ghostface Killa and Raekwon and the rest of the Wu Tang Clan, Nas, and The Roots are my favorites. Kanye is divisive but I enjoy his output after he did his heel turn and in some ways, I think he's one of the most interesting personalities around now. Although he's not lyrically at the level of my favorites, he is I think the greatest producer in rap history.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

If hip-hop is being judged purely on musical merit, I think it sucks. 

I have certain criteria that I use when evaluating music, and hip-hop (or rap) meets none of them. Music that meets my criteria are: classical, prog, jazz and a few forms of 'world music'.

If it is being judged as a spoken word art form (which I think it should), I do not have enough knowledge or appreciation of spoken word art forms to make an evaluation. 

I do not evaluate music based on the subculture that it is associated with. Music either stands or fall on its own merit.


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## Medley (Nov 3, 2016)

Its insane coming to a forum dedicated to classical music and finding people here that like Pac and The Notorious B.I.G. lol

just crazy. Expected to see alot more bashing.

Personally, I can get into it every now n again. It's not my most favourite genre on the planet, but I can respect some of the artists. Nujabes in particular helped inspire me to start creating my own stuff, may he RIP
.


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## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

At the right time, in the right place I love hiphop. Especially when it mixes obscure soul and jazz into the beats.
I have an intense dislike for gangstarap though.


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## ST4 (Oct 27, 2016)

After a long time of mocking rap/hip hop, the genre actually clicked for me back in march.
I haven't familiarised myself with all the most well-known rappers but I have found somegreat enjoyment and emotional impact from some hip hop.
Namely Lamar, 2pac, Death Grips as the culprits.

I actually don't think that image and social commentary are important to this music, even though it feeds of it. I prefer to be ignorant to it actually and just *listen*.


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