# "It's not over til the fat lady sings!": bodyweight vs vocal power myths



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

yes, we've all heard the expression, but....really? I know most people around here know better, but honestly, I have no idea where this theory came from other than maybe a modest correlation with bone structure. certainly not one with body fat.

anyway, evidence speaks louder than words. let's look at some of the best, most powerful voices of the last 200 years and...you tell me.

Franco Corelli 





Jerome Hines 





Shirley Verrett





Claramae Turner





bonus: Ilya Meleschenko (he's a Ukrainian basso profondo. he doesn't sing opera, but this is too good an example to pass up)


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

some more

Set Svanholm





Elena Souliotis 





Apollo Granforte 





Edda Moser





Brigitte Fassbaender


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## Bumblehorse (Sep 3, 2021)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> yes, we've all heard the expression, but....really? I know most people around here know better, but honestly, I have no idea where this theory came from other than maybe a modest correlation with bone structure. certainly not one with body fat.


Nothing about that expression proposes a _theory_ or vocal power _myths_. This may be of some help to you.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I suspect the expression refers to Brunnhilde and her immolation scene in _Gotterdammerung._ I wonder if it was inspired by Helen Traubel, who was at least statuesque. Someone remarked that when she and Melchior embraced onstage it was like the collision of two buses.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

I think there's an old anecdote, about the great contralto - Ernestine Schumann-Heink. In a certain concert, she was proceeding through the members of an orchestra, towards the front, but knocking-DOWN certain music stands, due-to her heft, of the time. The conductor asked ... "Madame, can't you walk sideways?". Ernestine replied, pithily, "I have no sideways!" Well, anyway, I'm sure there were excellent singers of the past - Lily Pons, or Alarie, or the diminutive (but short-lived) Joseph Schmidt, the Rumanian tenor, who died in WW2 ... who defy the usual cliche of the outdated term - "the fat lady", or a fat man. In any case, BalalaikaBoy, thanks for those great singers, incl. Granforte, Hines, Claramae Turner and others, in your examples!


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Nice example, Woodduck. ... Well, in any case, we should be GLAD that there was a "collision of two buses", namely H Traubel (from ol' St. Louis) and the remarkable Mr. Melchior. Their VOICES overshadowed any consideration of a physical state ... and they, both are part of an exceptional past that will not be equalled - no doubt.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Ponselle had a ginormous voice but was movie star slender by way of very vigorous exercise. I think more telling were her very wide features in her face that Caruso said was like her own. Obratzsova had perhaps the biggest female voice of her generation, but could be Melania Trump's sister. The mystery one to me was Flagstad. In her early Met Wagner days she was a normal sized woman, but more interestingly for me, had very normal sized facial features, unlike giant sized voiced singers like Nilsson, Tebaldi. Eva Turner, Jessye Norman, Leontyne Price and Sutherland who had huge resonating features in their faces. Flagstad was like a freak to have that voice which sounded like she had a microphone in her throat, coming from such a normal sized face and body. I think the issue with weight has to do with at what weight you are at when you learn to sing as if you were large and lost a lot your diaphram loses a big cheating mechanism. Ponselle was heavier when she was in Vaudeville, but there is a big difference in losing 30 pounds like she did and Callas who lost around 80 pounds. I have never heard of a singer who had gastric bypass that didn't suffer profound effects on their voice. Callas still had a very big voice after slimming down, but lost those stadium filling high notes which became much more normal sized post weight loss. Regarding Traubel, she was similar to young Sutherland in that both were not particularly heavy but were very tall and big boned and Traubel's chest was 48 inches which gave her plenty of lung power. I don't think Sutherland's big chest would have been far behind, but unlike Traubel she wasn't busty.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Traubel's chest was 48 inches...


  Where did you find this tidbit? Who documents these things?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Where did you find this tidbit? Who documents these things?


I had the library obtain an inter library loan of her biography in preparation for my two Youtube speeches on her. I have incredible memory for things that can't make me any money. Good read. She never sang an opera till around age 40 as she was perfecting her voice. First time she sang was at the Met and she became the highest paid soprano in the world overnight.... it must have worked LOL. It was amazing that she was able to do that without having sung opera on the stage before, but she had been giving lieder concerts and she had been extensively coached in lieder, which explains her great success in the pop medium. I will shut it now LOL


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Seattle - Nice assessments! Yes, Ms. Traubel (from St. Looie) was big-boned, and her voice still compares to Lotte Lehmann, Frida Leider and even Flagstad, in Wagner. Of course, it doesn't HURT that she was fortunate to record with the excellent Melchior, at his best, around the WW2 era. ... As for Flagstad, some of us still like the old video of her (introduced by Bob Hope) in Ho-yo-to-yo, etc. ... from Walkure ... in which she keeps pointing that SPEAR heavensward, all the while SMILING ... as the tone holds steady, from top to bottom, with nary a flaw. I guess "those were the days", as they used to say. Thanks.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

89Koechel said:


> As for Flagstad, some of us still like the old video of her (introduced by Bob Hope) in Ho-yo-to-yo, etc. ... from Walkure ... in which she keeps pointing that SPEAR heavensward, all the while SMILING ... as the tone holds steady, from top to bottom, with nary a flaw. I guess "those were the days", as they used to say. Thanks.


Count me as a fan. Anyone who could produce sounds like that while looking as happy and pretty as a Norwegian milkmaid could easily carry a fallen warrior on horseback. It's a cheesy production, but how can you not love her?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

89Koechel said:


> I think there's an old anecdote, about the great contralto - Ernestine Schumann-Heink. In a certain concert, she was proceeding through the members of an orchestra, towards the front, but knocking-DOWN certain music stands, due-to her heft, of the time. The conductor asked ... "Madame, can't you walk sideways?". Ernestine replied, pithily, "I have no sideways!"!


This made me recall another anecdote, this one about Helen Traubel. After the opera had finished, the conductor (forgot the name) accidentally walks into Ms. Traubel's dressing room, and immediately walks out again whispering "Nobody knows the Traubel I've seen...."


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

When Flagstad was recording Walkure Act 1 with Knapoersbusch, the conductor was amazed by how little actually went into the can on that day. When John Culshaw suggesting they may do a little more if Flagstad wasn’t tired, Kna said, “Tire? She won’t tire! She’s built like a battleship!”


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Seattle - Nice assessments! Yes, Ms. Traubel (from St. Looie) was big-boned, and her voice still compares to Lotte Lehmann, Frida Leider and even Flagstad, in Wagner. Of course, it doesn't HURT that she was fortunate to record with the excellent Melchior, at his best, around the WW2 era. ... As for Flagstad, some of us still like the old video of her (introduced by Bob Hope) in Ho-yo-to-yo, etc. ... from Walkure ... in which she keeps pointing that SPEAR heavensward, all the while SMILING ... as the tone holds steady, from top to bottom, with nary a flaw. I guess "those were the days", as they used to say. Thanks.


I am glad they did an excerpt of the pre Wotan music in Act 2 before her to set the stage. Do you know how lucky we are to have this???????? This was before TV so it had to be in a before movie reel seen in a movie theater or nothing pretty much exists for stars of this era. I just wish it was contemporary sound. She looked marvelous.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Opera is theater and as such, I prefer a cast that is physically fit instead of overweight and not believable for the part. I have always preferred productions that are balanced, i.e. accomplished stage craft, appropriate casting (appearance is a concern), as well as acting and decent singing, and not simply a bunch of great singers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JTS said:


> When Flagstad was recording Walkure Act 1 with Knapoersbusch, the conductor was amazed by how little actually went into the can on that day. When John Culshaw suggesting they may do a little more if Flagstad wasn't tired, Kna said, "Tire? She won't tire! She's built like a battleship!"


It's worth noting that when Flagstad was first hired to sing at the Met, general manager Gatti-Casazza admonished her not to put on weight, saying that her nice figure was one reason she was hired. The sexism of that deserves a few eye-rolls, but it does point out that she was not the proverbial "fat lady" during the prime years of her career, and photos from those early Met years (1930s) confirm this. She did gain weight with age, as many of us do. The recording with Knappertsbusch mentioned above was made in 1959, when Flagstad was 64. Anyone still singing Wagner at that age has earned a few extra pounds!


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> It's worth noting that when Flagstad was first hired to sing at the Met, general manager Gatti-Casazza admonished her not to put on weight, saying that her nice figure was one reason she was hired. The sexism of that deserves a few eye-rolls, but it does point out that she was not the proverbial "fat lady" during the prime years of her career, and photos from those early Met years (1930s) confirm this. She did gain weight with age, as many of us do. The recording with Knappertsbusch mentioned above was made in 1959, when Flagstad was 64. Anyone still singing Wagner at that age has earned a few extra pounds!


Of course, her successor Nilsson, though formidable in appearance, was certainly not a fat lady.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> It's worth noting that when Flagstad was first hired to sing at the Met, general manager Gatti-Casazza admonished her not to put on weight, saying that her nice figure was one reason she was hired. The sexism of that deserves a few eye-rolls, but it does point out that she was not the proverbial "fat lady" during the prime years of her career, and photos from those early Met years (1930s) confirm this. She did gain weight with age, as many of us do. The recording with Knappertsbusch mentioned above was made in 1959, when Flagstad was 64. Anyone still singing Wagner at that age has earned a few extra pounds!


Although I'm not discounting sexism in such remarks, I'm not sure it is entirely to blame. I highly doubt Corelli would have been as successful if he had weighed in at 300 pounds and had the same voice.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

BachIsBest said:


> Although I'm not discounting sexism in such remarks, I'm not sure it is entirely to blame. I highly doubt Corelli would have been as successful if he had weighed in at 300 pounds and had the same voice.


Of course - all part of the package:









As a matter of interest Karajan recorded Butterfly with Pavarotti. But when he filmed it with Ponnelle the overweight Pavarotti was replaced by the more photogenic Domingo.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

JTS said:


> When Flagstad was recording Walkure Act 1 with Knapoersbusch, the conductor was amazed by how little actually went into the can on that day. When John Culshaw suggesting they may do a little more if Flagstad wasn't tired, Kna said, "Tire? She won't tire! She's built like a battleship!"


"Into the can"... you mean the amount they recorded that day?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> "Into the can"... you mean the amount they recorded that day?


I think it means that Flagstad was preparing her traditional family recipe for lutefisk between recording takes.


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> "Into the can"... you mean the amount they recorded that day?


It's industry slang for the amount recorded.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Woodduck & Seattleoperafan - Hello, gents … I kind of figured, as such, but Flagstad with Bob Hope is from "The Big Broadcast of 1938". … And, yes indeed, Woodduck, the way she appears in this, the milkmaid probably COULD carry-away a fallen warrior … and be VERY happy to do so.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Woodduck & Seattleoperafan - Hello, gents … I kind of figured, as such, but Flagstad with Bob Hope is from "The Big Broadcast of 1938". … And, yes indeed, Woodduck, the way she appears in this, the milkmaid probably COULD carry-away a fallen warrior … and be VERY happy to do so.


They don't make movies like that anymore!!!!!!!!! I forgot it was from a movie. Thanks.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Hey, Seattleoperafan, I don't think they make ANYTHING like they did in 1938. There were excellent movies, back then (and more to come, shortly) ... and on the musical scene, were Flagstad, Melchior, Lehmann, Schorr, Ponselle, Gigli and the budding talent of Bjorling. In jazz, there were Louis Armstrong, the Basie/Ellington Orchestras (and their great soloists), and many others. Well, we can still enjoy what was "once was", in a type of a Golden Age - eh?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

JTS said:


> Of course - all part of the package:
> 
> View attachment 159653
> 
> ...


Though I do recall a fat butt when he turns and runs away after "_Addio fiorito asil._"


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

MAS - HAH, who cares 'bout a "fat butt", when you could SING like Corelli could, at his best - eh? I'm still wondering if he ever compared himself to the Borlange fellow/Bjorling, in any/many of their overlapping arias and recordings. BTW, Bjorling was not an insubstantial fellow, himself - he had a broad shoulder, in physique, and of course (figuratively) in his great interpretations and recordings. Also, let's not forget that the late, great tenor - Joseph Schmidt - was around 4 feet, and 11 inches tall, and his tragically-shortened life and recordings contain many, great examples - if you will - eh?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> MAS - HAH, who cares 'bout a "fat butt", when you could SING like Corelli could, at his best - eh? I'm still wondering if he ever compared himself to the Borlange fellow/Bjorling, in any/many of their overlapping arias and recordings. BTW, Bjorling was not an insubstantial fellow, himself - he had a broad shoulder, in physique, and of course (figuratively) in his great interpretations and recordings. Also, let's not forget that the late, great tenor - Joseph Schmidt - was around 4 feet, and 11 inches tall, and his tragically-shortened life and recordings contain many, great examples - if you will - eh?


MMMMMMM... I would not classify Corelli as a "fat butt". As a gay man, I would consider him a certified hunk. Just saying....


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

89Koechel said:


> MAS - HAH, who cares 'bout a "fat butt", when you could SING like Corelli could, at his best - eh? I'm still wondering if he ever compared himself to the Borlange fellow/Bjorling, in any/many of their overlapping arias and recordings. BTW, Bjorling was not an insubstantial fellow, himself - he had a broad shoulder, in physique, and of course (figuratively) in his great interpretations and recordings. Also, let's not forget that the late, great tenor - Joseph Schmidt - was around 4 feet, and 11 inches tall, and his tragically-shortened life and recordings contain many, great examples - if you will - eh?


You missed the reference. he meant Corelli had a nice badonkadonk (I work in the ghetto, don't just me :lol: ) when he turned around in spite of his more trim frame.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> MMMMMMM... I would not classify Corelli as a "fat butt". As a gay man, I would consider him a certified hunk. Just saying....


Seattleoperafan and 89Koechel, the "fat butt" I was referring to was Domingo's in the Ponnelle *Madama Butterfly* video with Freni, subbing for Pavarotti.

I love Corelli, and he was a hunk-and a half physically, but a vocal giant!


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

I read that Caballe was delighted that Herbert Von Karajan had offered her a contract. However, she was less than delighted that the contract specified she had to lose 35lb


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love this photo of Flagstad. You can see she could have been a very video friendly star if she was singing today and yet she second to no other soprano in all likelihood with regard to volume and stamina. It must be pointed out though she learned how to use her diaphram as a slender woman and hadn't trimmed down for the Met stage. I have a feeling she likely had some very advantageous sinus cavities and mouth structure to help facilitate such a prodigeous sound, but I have no proof of this. They say Ella Fitzgerald had twice the normal size sinus cavities. Callas had upper palate shaped like a vaulted cathedral and I heard Sutherland had an abnormally high roof to her mouth ( and a huge mouth to boot). Kathleen Ferrier could have pushed an apple to the back of her throat. Ponselle, a slender woman, attributed her big sound to her wide Caruso like mask of her face.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> View attachment 160072
> I love this photo of Flagstad. You can see she could have been a very video friendly star if she was singing today and yet she second to no other soprano in all likelihood with regard to volume and stamina. It must be pointed out though she learned how to use her diaphram as a slender woman and hadn't trimmed down for the Met stage. I have a feeling she likely had some very advantageous sinus cavities and mouth structure to help facilitate such a prodigeous sound, but I have no proof of this. They say Ella Fitzgerald had twice the normal size sinus cavities. Callas had upper palate shaped like a vaulted cathedral and I heard Sutherland had an abnormally high roof to her mouth ( and a huge mouth to boot). Kathleen Ferrier could have pushed an apple to the back of her throat. Ponselle, a slender woman, attributed her big sound to her wide Caruso like mask of her face.


That is a lovely photo. Flagstad was a very pretty woman, with a fresh, high-cheekboned, Nordic beauty which was no doubt an asset to her, in addition to having one of the most magnificent voices of the 20th century. We can see why Met general manager Gatti-Casazza advised her to keep her nice figure. She said that her voice wasn't always huge, but gained power after the birth of her daughter. I've never encountered that explanation of anyone else's _hochdramatische_ status - Nilsson's voice was always loud, she said, and having a child did nothing to turn up Beverly Sills' volume - but small-voiced sopranos with Wagnerian ambitions might give it a try.

(A propos of nothing, I just discovered that there are three Kirsten Flagstads on LinkedIn, none of them singers).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> That is a lovely photo. Flagstad was a very pretty woman, with a fresh, high-cheekboned, Nordic beauty which was no doubt an asset to her, in addition to having one of the most magnificent voices of the 20th century. We can see why Met general manager Gatti-Casazza advised her to keep her nice figure. She said that her voice wasn't always huge, but gained power after the birth of her daughter. I've never encountered that explanation of anyone else's _hochdramatische_ status - Nilsson's voice was always loud, she said, and having a child did nothing to turn up Beverly Sills' volume - but small-voiced sopranos with Wagnerian ambitions might give it a try.
> 
> (A propos of nothing, I just discovered that there are three Kirsten Flagstads on LinkedIn, none of them singers).


I am certain I read where Flagstad's chest cavity increased several inches after singing Wagner. She must have developed body builder like inter-costal muscles. My mind remember such useless trivia. In the back of super market tabloids as a young teen I remember ads for the Mark Eden Bust Increase Method. I wonder if it included singing Brunhilde in the shower;-) I will ask my sister about pregnancy and voice changes. I know there can be a temporary lowering for a year that science notes but it goes back to normal.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Today I just came across this photo of Callas with Del Monaco, Rossi-Lemeni and Mario Filippeschi aboard the "Argentina" on her way to South America in 1949. She looked a perfectly normal weight then. She must have piled on the pounds up to 1953 when she started her diet.









This was the time she was regularly singing Turandot with a voice of very ample size. That was also the year she made her debut in *I Puritani*, whilst still singing Brünnhilde.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Today I just came across this photo of Callas with Del Monaco, Rossi-Lemeni and Mario Filippeschi aboard the "Argentina" on her way to South America in 1949. She looked a perfectly normal weight then. She must have piled on the pounds up to 1953 when she started her diet.
> 
> View attachment 160090
> 
> ...


You are kidding me!!!! I had no idea.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Yep, maybe "piling up the pounds" didn't diminish her vocal abilities, nor that, GREAT dramatic ability. ... To me, it's always great that Bjorling and/or Melchior could keep their standard stature, and NOT become obese ... while fulfilling the best of the greatest roles of all, in the past ... throughout their careers. It's the VOICE that matters, often ... esp. in the past standards of the BEST, as we keep examining singers for certain characteristics - eh?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Here Callas is in Parsifal also in 1949 in a more revealing outfit. She is not fat but is certainly more voluptuous than she was in her later Audrey Hepburn phase. I would guess 25 or so pounds heavier but not nearly as heavy as she was in 1952. This weight was not uncommon among the sweater girls of the 50's in Hollywood.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> View attachment 160112
> Here Callas is in Parsifal also in 1949 in a more revealing outfit. She is not fat but is certainly more voluptuous than she was in her later Audrey Hepburn phase. I would guess 25 or so pounds heavier but not nearly as heavy as she was in 1952. This weight was not uncommon among the sweater girls of the 50's in Hollywood.


And here she is in 1951










and in 1953










She clearly put on quite a lot of weight, which was obviously behind her decision to diet.


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