# My experimental pieces and so forth thread



## Phil loves classical

Rather than a new thread for each little ditty, I will post all my stuff here from now on.

Here is a completely aleatoric piece atonally, where I used a random generator for the 12 tones for each row, non-repeating. But I set the rhythm manually, and the harmony is dictated by position within the randomly generated rows. The goal is to recreate the sounds of birds in the forest.


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## arnerich

Interesting. I think it's possible with the tone rows you have to make it sound more birdlike. But you'd need to mimic the rhythm of birds calls to achieve that. Thanks for sharing!


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## Phil loves classical

arnerich said:


> Interesting. I think it's possible with the tone rows you have to make it sound more birdlike. But you'd need to mimic the rhythm of birds calls to achieve that. Thanks for sharing!


Ok, here is a revised version, making it sound more like birds for flute, oboe and 2 recorders. The flute and oboe provides the backdrop, while the recorders are the birds closer to the listener.


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## Phil loves classical

Likely my last experiment on indeterminacy. Indeterminate melody, duration and density of sound and silence. Equal total amount sound and silence for each voice.


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## Phil loves classical

I varied the tempos between sections to this previous work, which I view as a series of dances, that sound tribal (don't ask me from where, the 2nd sounds middle Eastern), which makes it more interesting and weighty to me than the previous incarnation. Some unusual interval leaps in the melodies.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my new piece, which I think is structurally my strongest, and with the most transformation, which still harmonically tight.


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## Phil loves classical

deleted. organ version ain’t happening.


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## Phil loves classical

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is my new piece, which I think is structurally my strongest, and with the most transformation, which still harmonically tight.
> 
> []


Ok, here is a piano version, plus I ironed out some wrinkles.


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## arnerich

Phil loves classical said:


> Ok, here is a piano version, plus I ironed out some wrinkles.


It's very nice. There's a lot of tension. It seems to stay in that top quarter of the keyboard. I think if there was a gradual descent to the middle of the keyboard it would make for nice contrast. That would be my only suggestion. Thanks for sharing!


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## Phil loves classical

arnerich said:


> It's very nice. There's a lot of tension. It seems to stay in that top quarter of the keyboard. I think if there was a gradual descent to the middle of the keyboard it would make for nice contrast. That would be my only suggestion. Thanks for sharing!


The bass was too loud and I equalized it, also to reduced the heaviness in the chords, maybe i overdone it. The left hand rarely moved above middle C.


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## arnerich

I was referring to the top voice.


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## Phil loves classical

arnerich said:


> I was referring to the top voice.


I see. I varied it a bit longer an octave lower. Agree maybe it was too long at higher end for too long of stretches,


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## Phil loves classical

A couple of pieces I did. This is part of an ambient album of a series of similar episodes I plan to make. Was made on Goldwave (free!) recording real-time, although the sounds are purely computer midi generated some some slight modifications.






This little ditty is based on Messaien's 5th mode, which I think a SATB choir sounds better with the disonnances and chromaticisms.


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## Phil loves classical

Ambient tracks 1 and 2. This second one kinda like a cross with Satie and Eno.


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## arnerich

Phil loves classical said:


> Ambient tracks 1 and 2. This second one kinda like a cross with Satie and Eno.


Nice, I'm curious what it sounds like on piano.


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## Phil loves classical

arnerich said:


> Nice, I'm curious what it sounds like on piano.


Just bland. Eno said ambient music should be trivial enough to be ignored, but still interesting or something.

Here is an updated file with my 3rd track, a quartertonal one for effect. This may be my most commerically viable composition yet, though that is not saying much about the quality of music on the market.


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## Phil loves classical

ambient tracks 4 and 5


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a funny piece


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my Waltz from hell :devil: Here is an updated version


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## Phil loves classical

Fixed up the harmony, and just cut out the last part.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my perfected version of this piece


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## Phil loves classical

Check his one out. A polytonal piece


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## Phil loves classical

Phil loves classical said:


> Check his one out. A polytonal piece


Here is an updated version, more organized motivically.


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## Phil loves classical

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an updated version, more organized motivically.


Here is a final version. I think it is my most uncompromising piece harmonically. I'm sure many will find it unlistenable.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new ambient mood piece.






Plus a link to the consolidated older ones


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## nikola

You really have much to learn if you want to compose meaningful ambient pieces. 
Ambient music most of the time isn't complex, but it's also not atonal or insipid like your sketches.

Learn from the best:

Vangelis:













Those 2 short pieces by Mark Snow shows perfectly how someone talented can compose brilliant piece with length under 1 minute.








 (full version)

Badalamenti:









You can't just throw some chords that don't work together (last piece on 2nd video for example). Find some meaningful musical idea/motif and then decide what you want to do with it. Your pieces also sound too rigid. Give them life.


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## Phil loves classical

Thanks for taking the time. But mine are not atonal. All they need to do is convey a mood and make use of timbre, which I think was most successful in the 2nd piece of the 2nd video and the last. I’ve listened to a lot of ambient music, and I want to go in a different direction than most, and making it the most minimal.


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## Phil loves classical

Here are some improved versions of the last 2 pieces.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. Will take time for me to learn on piano. The title was just added on after the pic.


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## Phil loves classical

here is a piano version with a few modifications


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## Phil loves classical

Live piano version of my earlier piece. My personal favourite of all my stuff.


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## pkoi

I think you did a good job in creating a mood of "Metamorphosis" in your latest piece. The metamorphosis happens slowly enough so that one can get used to your melodic and harmonic material and how it changes through time. I would've preferred larger variance in use of register. Some echoes of the opening eb-eb-d-f#-d-f#-g-db-motive (or its transposition,retroversion,inversion etc.) in a high register somewhere later in the piece, would add a nice "cold" touch to your piece. Especially in the end, where you're dwelling in the low register. Also you could add more rhythmic and dynamic variances. Your piece now is pretty much in the mp-mf-range and rhythmically from 8th notes to some half-note fermatas. A sudden burst of faster rhythms, perhaps in F-dynamic would add a nice touch to it. Nevertheless, good job!


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## Phil loves classical

pkoi said:


> I think you did a good job in creating a mood of "Metamorphosis" in your latest piece. The metamorphosis happens slowly enough so that one can get used to your melodic and harmonic material and how it changes through time. I would've preferred larger variance in use of register. Some echoes of the opening eb-eb-d-f#-d-f#-g-db-motive (or its transposition,retroversion,inversion etc.) in a high register somewhere later in the piece, would add a nice "cold" touch to your piece. Especially in the end, where you're dwelling in the low register. Also you could add more rhythmic and dynamic variances. Your piece now is pretty much in the mp-mf-range and rhythmically from 8th notes to some half-note fermatas. A sudden burst of faster rhythms, perhaps in F-dynamic would add a nice touch to it. Nevertheless, good job!


thanks. I can barely hold it together at this point in my playing :lol: I agree I should add some more contrast in dynamics or accenting or something, or make certain parts more deliberate, it is a bit too legato. I also feel I haven't got the pedalling quite right.


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## Capeditiea

Make it a few minutes longer... it feels too short. Unless it is only the intro to a bigger work... then in that case it would be fine... all depending on how the answer would be to Metamorphosis. :3 I won't tell you what it needs next... since you probably have it planned by now.  unless i am the only one who plans their Opus arrangement... ahead of time... :O i have plans for most of the next 15 Op. already... (and some are already formulated in my mind.  i just need to write them all down... (and finetune the sounds as they may be slightly different.) 

Anyways... back on topic... Yes, i can hear the metamorphosis which then it feels like there is no answer. Is that the plan on what you are aiming for?


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## Phil loves classical

The title was just for the sound of it. There are just a few changes, but never really metaphorphises into something different . It is only a prelude like pretty much all my stuff, so I never plan to develop it into a full blown work. 2’30” is my self imposed max. it takes a lot of work to actually develop a whole work without extraneous parts, and a lot of patience. Not something to be trifled with.


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## Capeditiea

Phil loves classical said:


> The title was just for the sound of it. There are just a few changes, but never really metaphorphises into something different . It is only a prelude like pretty much all my stuff, so I never plan to develop it into a full blown work. 2'30" is my self imposed max. it takes a lot of work to actually develop a whole work without extraneous parts, and a lot of patience. Not something to be trifled with.


you're telling me. LOL


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> The title was just for the sound of it. There are just a few changes, but never really metaphorphises into something different . It is only a prelude like pretty much all my stuff, so I never plan to develop it into a full blown work. 2'30" is my self imposed max. it takes a lot of work to actually develop a whole work without extraneous parts, and a lot of patience. Not something to be trifled with.


I'm wanting to get back to the way I composed in high school/early college. I spent much more time with the pieces instead of pumping them out left and right like a pop artist. I've also narrowed down a list of favorite compositions of mine that I will continue to perform. On this list I kept a few pieces that I busted out in 15 mins, but on the best of those.

I hope to have something fresh to show this section of the board in the near future.


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## Capeditiea

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm wanting to get back to the way I composed in high school/early college. I spent much more time with the pieces instead of pumping them out left and right like a pop artist. I've also narrowed down a list of favorite compositions of mine that I will continue to perform. On this list I kept a few pieces that I busted out in 15 mins, but on the best of those.
> 
> I hope to have something fresh to show this section of the board in the near future.


:3 after deleting about 500 or so albums worth of music... i ended up being temporarily satisfied then i go back and listen to the ones that survived and find that more may need to be deleted. :O

but i learned that taking time does effect the song's value. 
going from 1-3 albums per week... down to 6 works in a month.  (which is way shorter compared to many of the albums i made in my self titled project... 
:O wait you don't wanna hear this here... :3 i shall do it on another thing.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Live piano version of my earlier piece. My personal favourite of all my stuff.


I like this one a lot, Phil. After reading your 12 tone thread, it makes much more sense of your music. It does feel complete, but I do wish you would compose longer material.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> here is a piano version with a few modifications


I LOVE the syncopation and dissonance mixed in there. Very creative!


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## Captainnumber36

Are you starting to feel more confident about performing?


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Are you starting to feel more confident about performing?


Thanks, but no. I had to edit those tracks, or else I would be working on them for hours like I used to with no guarantee. There was one 2' track I worked on for a few days at 2-3 hours each and still couldn't get right.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Thanks, but no. I had to edit those tracks, or else I would be working on them for hours like I used to with no guarantee. There was one 2' track I worked on for a few days at 2-3 hours each and still couldn't get right.


I get it. Performing is very important to me, I want to be able to showcase my pieces to a live audience.


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## Phil loves classical

After a nice break, and listening to some Pierre Schaeffer, I decided to experiment a bit processing some sounds (one is a track with rain and thunder with a clip of a Lambourghini engine thrown in the middle), and playing around with my favourite web synth site.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> After a nice break, and listening to some Pierre Schaeffer, I decided to experiment a bit processing some sounds (one is a track with rain and thunder with a clip of a Lambourghini engine thrown in the middle), and playing around with my favourite web synth site.


I'm stopping Beethoven's Eroica for this, it better be a masterpiece!


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## Captainnumber36

It's an interesting work, _certainly_ modern. I see it as background music to some film documentary on underwater life in particular.


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## pkoi

I like the distorted part in your electronic piece, I think you could build a full song based only on that. Perhaps starting with a simple rhythm and then using some phase shifting or plainly writing alterations to it to build interesting rhytmical textures. You could also experiment with the level of distortion in that (like you did here already a bit )


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## Phil loves classical

Thanks for the advice. I incorporated those sounds and others to make it more full. This one is way more trippy version


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## Captainnumber36

I definitely think the new version is much stronger. It makes more sense, and flows better, good job!


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my first orchestral piece, in the works. Still working on the last part and to work out more ideas.


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## Captainnumber36

I could've done without the countdown, lol, that hurt my ears! Music sounds interesting though, but I feel like it jumps and ends right in the middle of something that needs a beginning and an end.

I'm still in awe that you only started composing so recently, you're so talented!


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## Phil loves classical

Ha, don't make me blush. I'm not done. Have to develop it further. The beginning is like that for some Classical. But I was wondering myself. Yeah the countdown is annoying. It was a new movie Maker program on my phone.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my completed orchestral piece. over 4 minutes a new record for me! I threw in the title and sea concept last minute, and had nothing to do with the conception.

Tweaked version.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is my completed orchestral piece. over 4 minutes a new record for me! I threw in the title and sea concept last minute, and had nothing to do with the conception.


Seemed a bit repetitive, but I really liked the part around 110. Cool piece!


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Seemed a bit repetitive, but I really liked the part around 110. Cool piece!


I think the crescendo part could use more variation.


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## Captainnumber36

(i'd love to get your points on the latest two pieces I've posted in my thread, btw)


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a piece I was working on since yesterday, which Capeditea gave me an idea on. Using a mathematical sequence for a series of notes, and just arranging them.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a piece I was working on since yesterday, which Capeditea gave me an idea on. Using a mathematical sequence for a series of notes, and just arranging them.


Cool. I like it!


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Cool. I like it!


Just don't use it in training your ear for traditional harmony there is an intentional wrong note (the 3rd note in the piece) in the clarinet part that gets repeated. Prokofiev also put intentional "wrong notes".  I'll never hear the end of it from Nikola.


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> Just don't use it in training your ear for traditional harmony there is an intentional wrong note (the 3rd note in the piece) in the clarinet part that gets repeated. Prokofiev also put intentional "wrong notes".  I'll never hear the end of it from Nikola.


The problem is that you're often using wrong notes when you believe that you're using right notes.


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## Phil loves classical

nikola said:


> The problem is that you're often using wrong notes when you believe that you're using right notes.


I do believe it is not traditional harmony, but nothing beyond what was done by other Modern Classical or Jazz composers.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Phil, for your orchestral piece, I think if you slowed it down, and made it a bit more airy as opposed to the heavy colors you have right now, you could have something brilliant.

I particularly enjoyed the lapses in between tonality and atonality.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Phil loves classical said:


> I do believe it is not traditional harmony, but nothing beyond what was done by other Modern Classical or Jazz composers.


Even then, your music is still rather conservative when placed alongside other modern works in the style.


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a piece I was working on since yesterday, which Capeditea gave me an idea on. Using a mathematical sequence for a series of notes, and just arranging them.


Sorry, but this is pretty much nonsensical and unfocused piece on so many levels. It gives me an impression of lobotomized animals having sex. 
Not to be too harsh because I heard more tolerable pieces from you, but this one doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's just a bunch of notes thrown out there. Nothing more or less.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

nikola said:


> Sorry, but this is pretty much nonsensical and unfocused piece on so many levels. It gives me an impression of lobotomized animals having sex.
> Not to be too harsh because I heard more tolerable pieces from you, but this one doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's just a bunch of notes thrown out there. Nothing more or less.


They aren't a bunch of notes at all. If you do some research on Fibonacci, you'd understand.

Phil composed a piece using a very well known mathmatical sequence, but still made it his own. I never fully understood the point of mathematical pieces until I did my own experiment, and found a great deal of enjoyment out of the process, even if the result isn't my cup of tea. Many out there enjoy hearing the musical result of applying raw mathematics to music.


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## nikola

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> They aren't a bunch of notes at all. If you do some research on Fibonacci, you'd understand.
> 
> Phil composed a piece using a very well known mathmatical sequence, but still made it his own. I never fully understood the point of mathematical pieces until I did my own experiment, and found a great deal of enjoyment out of the process, even if the result isn't my cup of tea. Many out there enjoy hearing the musical result of applying raw mathematics to music.


So, he made it to turn something meaningful into something meaningless. Bravo!


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## Phil loves classical

nikola said:


> So, he made it to turn something meaningful into something meaningless. Bravo!


You could say the same for just about all less tonal music. Just admit you generally don't like modern Classical or Jazz. Music doesn't need to fit your way of listening


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> You could say the same for just about all less tonal music. Just admit you generally don't like modern Classical or Jazz. Music doesn't need to fit your way of listening


I actually believe this is really bad piece of music. There's also nothing "modern" about it. Maybe half century ago it would mean something at least to you, but today....


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## Phil loves classical

Check out something I was working on last couple days. I can hear some harmonies that are different from the time, but I think it sort of captures the Rossian spirit.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a better progress version. The last part could be more consonant.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a better progress version. The last part could be more consonant.


It has it's moments, but it lacks fluidity from section to section and the ending feels very abrupt. It also feels all over the place!


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> It has it's moments, but it lacks fluidity from section to section and the ending feels very abrupt. It also feels all over the place!


it's not finished yet.  I'm just done the first part. It might take a real performance to hold it all together.


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## Phil loves classical

Check out this mini serenade. I think it is my own favourite work of mine along with the Metamorphosis. It was sort of inspired by Shostakovich's Quartet 15.


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## Phil loves classical

Some rhythms/durations were a bit off. I tweaked a few things and made a more substantial reprise.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a little piano study while I was playing around.


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## Phil loves classical

I retuned some parts to have more tonal implications.


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## Phil loves classical

Ah wut da heck. I went all the way and turned into boogie woogie piano, with some nice dissonant parts.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is what I feel is probably my weirdest piece. It has a more conventional harmony backdrop mixed with some highly chromatic. I tried to approach it from a more conventional standpoint, hoping initially, but feel in the end the two ends will never quite meet. Not intentional, but I can see this being more Avant Garde.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Ah wut da heck. I went all the way and turned into boogie woogie piano, with some nice dissonant parts.


This is sweet! At first it sounded like Charlie Brown, love the dissonant portions. Make it longer!


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is what I feel is probably my weirdest piece. It has a more conventional harmony backdrop mixed with some highly chromatic. I tried to approach it from a more conventional standpoint, hoping initially, but feel in the end the two ends will never quite meet. Not intentional, but I can see this being more Avant Garde.


Really enjoy this one too, I think your strength is being weird and out there.


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Really enjoy this one too, I think your strength is being weird and out there.


I was surprised anyone could like it.  I figured out a way to make it gel better, by using notes within the scale of the backdrop at first to acclimate the listener and diverging chromatically afterwards. I quite like this one. I think I achieved a certain form of expressionism, regardless of how one feels about the harmony.

On the piano piece, myself and others thought it sounded like Charlie Brown also. It was a coincidence. The harmony is drastically different, though. I wouldn't make it longer, my secret is to have my pieces not outlast the number of new ideas.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I was surprised anyone could like it.  I figured out a way to make it gel better, by using notes within the scale of the backdrop at first to acclimate the listener and diverging chromatically afterwards. I quite like this one.
> 
> On the piano piece, myself and others thought it sounded like Charlie Brown also. It was a coincidence. The harmony is drastically different, though. I wouldn't make it longer, my secret is to have my pieces not outlast the number of new ideas.


I think I liked the previous version better.


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## Guest

I listened to a few of these, and I like what I hear. It sounds like you are having a good time composing. Is it primarily for fun, or do you have any performance goals you wish to achieve?


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## Phil loves classical

shirime said:


> I listened to a few of these, and I like what I hear. It sounds like you are having a good time composing. Is it primarily for fun, or do you have any performance goals you wish to achieve?


Purely for fun.  I just heard a quote yesterday on Classical FM that some people treat music with too much respect rather than just enjoying it. I don't see myself as one of them.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Purely for fun.  I just heard a quote yesterday on Classical FM that some people treat music with too much respect rather than just enjoying it. I don't see myself as one of them.


Oh god, respect for the repertoire is the worst kind of all! 

Music is fun, and I like what you do!


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Purely for fun.  I just heard a quote yesterday on Classical FM that some people treat music with too much respect rather than just enjoying it. I don't see myself as one of them.


That's a solid quote! After All our King Mozart wrote a piece about licking his a**


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Captainnumber36 said:


> That's a solid quote! After All our King Mozart wrote a piece about licking his a**


Don't forget the sequel: Lick my ***, nice and clean!


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## Captainnumber36

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> Don't forget the sequel: Lick my ***, nice and clean!


Are you for real?


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## Guest

Captainnumber36 said:


> Are you for real?







The demographics of the performers in this video worry me a little.


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## Captainnumber36

shirime said:


> The demographics of the performers in this video worry me a little.


LOL, that's hilarious! Why are children singing this R-rated piece!!!


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece for piano, by far my most technically demanding. Tweaked it a bit for better flow.






I also tweaked further my Neo-Baroque Serenade, which is my personal favourite piece of mine.


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## Guest

_Study in Modern_ has a very early Messiaen feel to it, with a bit of Debussy etudes and a dash of Bartok thrown in. Have these composers influenced you in any way?


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## Phil loves classical

shirime said:


> _Study in Modern_ has a very early Messiaen feel to it, with a bit of Debussy etudes and a dash of Bartok thrown in. Have these composers influenced you in any way?


Bartok for sure. I didn't listen too much of Messiaen (only his best known 2 pieces). Debussy, a little


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Bartok for sure. I didn't listen too much of Messiaen (only his best known 2 pieces). Debussy, a little


Nice!

I will return to you a question that you asked me over on my thread: how did you come up with the pitches and rhythms?


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## Phil loves classical

shirime said:


> Nice!
> 
> I will return to you a question that you asked me over on my thread: how did you come up with the pitches and rhythms?


Certain intervals like tritone, minor seconds, major 7ths, and other ones along the way for chromatic melody which is sometimes parallel motion and sometimes opposite motion between the voices. The rhythms are purely "intuitive" as you called it, based on just from listening to a lot of modern classical and jazz music, and just what I feel with certain accents and syncopation.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> Certain intervals like tritone, minor seconds, major 7ths, and other ones along the way for chromatic melody which is sometimes parallel motion and sometimes opposite motion between the voices. The rhythms are purely "intuitive" as you called it, based on just from listening to a lot of modern classical and jazz music, and just what I feel with certain accents and syncopation.


That makes sense. I also like to do this with intervals, although offsetting consonant intervals by dissonant ones also has a remarkable affect.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piece for piano, by far my most technically demanding. Tweaked it a bit for better flow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also tweaked further my Neo-Baroque Serenade, which is my personal favourite piece of mine.


I love Van Gough, I'll listen to the music in a bit!


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piece for piano, by far my most technically demanding. Tweaked it a bit for better flow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also tweaked further my Neo-Baroque Serenade, which is my personal favourite piece of mine.


I think it's more the software than anything and how you used it for these pieces, but something about the way they sound feels uncharacteristically artificial compared to your other works. This made it difficult to listen to and appreciate.


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## Phil loves classical

Yes, real performance can change perception a lot for some music. But you're right that there is a difference in more than just performance. With these pieces I took a more measured approach to changes, and is more technical, which compared to my other stuff may sound less genuine. Usually I just jump right into parts, and revel in the gut, with less preparation (Figmentation is the epitome of this approach for me), while here it is more slowly developed over time, and involves more form.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

I may add Study in Modern to the program of my next performance. Could you perhaps send me the score?


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## Phil loves classical

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> I may add Study in Modern to the program of my next performance. Could you perhaps send me the score?


I'll PM you........


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my new short piano piece. I tried to proof-listen a bit more before posting, which I think I didn't do enough before. 
It has my trademark chromatic harmony, but I also injected a lot of consonance, and hopefully some imagery.


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## Fredx2098

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is my new short piano piece. I tried to proof-listen a bit more before posting, which I think I didn't do enough before.
> It has my trademark chromatic harmony, but I also injected a lot of consonance, and hopefully some imagery.


I like that a lot. Is it in a key? To me it sounds like it shifts keys a few times, but I could be totally wrong. I love the chromaticism. I think it would be cool to hear this piece extended, and I think there could be a build-up to a more impressive ending.


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## Phil loves classical

Fredx2098 said:


> I like that a lot. Is it in a key? To me it sounds like it shifts keys a few times, but I could be totally wrong. I love the chromaticism. I think it would be cool to hear this piece extended, and I think there could be a build-up to a more impressive ending.


Thanks Fred. It is in a different key at the beginning and end. The middle parts are more chromatic shifts and stuff. Revisiting I felt some harmonies were off so I tweaked them.


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## Guest

It sounds like you've got something modal or polymodal going on here with more and more chromatic alterations moving it to different quasi-diatonic areas. Would I be correct in my assumption that this is what you are doing?


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## Phil loves classical

shirime said:


> It sounds like you've got something modal or polymodal going on here with more and more chromatic alterations moving it to different quasi-diatonic areas. Would I be correct in my assumption that this is what you are doing?


Ya, there were a few modal/diatonic shifts in the melody. Good ear.


----------



## Phil loves classical

shirime said:


> It sounds like you've got something modal or polymodal going on here with more and more chromatic alterations moving it to different quasi-diatonic areas. Would I be correct in my assumption that this is what you are doing?


Ya, there were a few modal/diatonic shifts in the melody. Good ear.


----------



## Guest

How much time to you spend on these short compositions? This month and next month I have a bunch of deadlines I need to meet which means I have to compose rather more rapidly than I am normally comfortable with..............


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## Phil loves classical

shirime said:


> How much time to you spend on these short compositions? This month and next month I have a bunch of deadlines I need to meet which means I have to compose rather more rapidly than I am normally comfortable with..............


On and off a few hours a day for about 3 days. First day I usually come up with some idea by itself, 2nd day I develop it as I go along, rather than have it all in my head before writing down. 3rd day is usually just editing by relistening and tweaking, sometimes major tweaks. I don't envy you, I know how it feels to have deadlines. Music is just about the only thing I do out of pure enjoyment, rather than having to meet someone else's expectations and timelines. I'm finding I have a lot more interest in it than my day job, which is suffering because of it. But fortunately i'm not too badly off financially.


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## Guest

Phil loves classical said:


> On and off a few hours a day for about 3 days. First day I usually come up with some idea by itself, 2nd day I develop it as I go along, rather than have it all in my head before writing down. 3rd day is usually just editing by relistening and tweaking, sometimes major tweaks. I don't envy you, I know how it feels to have deadlines. Music is just about the only thing I do out of pure enjoyment, rather than having to meet someone else's expectations and timelines. I'm finding I have a lot more interest in it than my day job, which is suffering because of it. But fortunately i'm not too badly off financially.


That's very lucky for you! Unfortunately, I do end up making money from composing, hence the deadlines.......but that's also a really good thing anyway I guess! Totally different from teaching, the other way I make money.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my new piano study.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version


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## nikola

By far your best piece to me so far. Catchy and nice development too.


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## Guest

I like how you played with register and texture, but in terms of pitch your music seemed to sound best to be when it shifted away from the established 'tonic', the pentatonic scale is really unsuited to establishing a tonic-dominant relationship, and the opening gestures hint at a I ii V progression.....making it more difficult to break free and explore the more idiomatic harmonic colours that the pentatonic scale provides.

Actaully, the opening sounds very similar to this:






But I honestly much prefer your composition.


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## Phil loves classical

nikola said:


> By far your best piece to me so far. Catchy and nice development too.


 Where has the world gone? Thanks. I made a few minor tweaks, I found a few parts with the right hand a bit too noisy. Hopefully it is to your approval. 








shirime said:


> I like how you played with register and texture, but in terms of pitch your music seemed to sound best to be when it shifted away from the established 'tonic', the pentatonic scale is really unsuited to establishing a tonic-dominant relationship, and the opening gestures hint at a I ii V progression.....making it more difficult to break free and explore the more idiomatic harmonic colours that the pentatonic scale provides.
> 
> Actaully, the opening sounds very similar to this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I honestly much prefer your composition.


Hey thanks. I'm very familiar with that piece, it's one of the 2 most famous 20th century Classical work heavily influenced by Western orchestration. Butterfly Lovers Concerto is the more famous one. With this piece I'm just aiming for a tune with accompaniment.


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> Where has the world gone? Thanks. I made a few minor tweaks, I found a few parts with the right hand a bit too noisy. Hopefully it is to your approval.


World gone mad :trp:
I did listen a few times your first (or 2nd attempt), but can't notice much difference on this one. You can leave it like this. It stands on its own. It would be only nice to hear something like this but longer.


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## Captainnumber36

nikola said:


> World gone mad :trp:
> I did listen a few times your first (or 2nd attempt), but can't notice much difference on this one. You can leave it like this. It stands on its own. It would be only nice to hear something like this but longer.


So is the case with Phil's pieces, too short!


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## Phil loves classical

Here is short light piece. An quartertonal piece with an R&B sort of rhythm.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of this older piece. I felt the rhythms were a bit too tight before.






And the last piece with a certain part revised.


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## Captainnumber36

I enjoy the Oriental Work a lot. Good stuff!


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## Captainnumber36

Critical Mass was a bit too jumpy for me, but it had sections I liked.
Quartertonal is cool, I enjoy that one.


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## derin684

The ones I could listen were all wonderful(some of them were deleted).

The critical mass reminds me of Schoenberg a lot, did you use 12-tone technique writing it?


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## Phil loves classical

derin684 said:


> The ones I could listen were all wonderful(some of them were deleted).
> 
> The critical mass reminds me of Schoenberg a lot, did you use 12-tone technique writing it?


Hey thanks. No, not 12-tone. It is free atonal, but I wonder if it really is that atonal. It was inspired by Leonard Rosenman and Varese. It is my most varied in terms of metre, but I didn't use tuplets.


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## derin684

Yes, I did hear some tonal aspects when I listened again. But it's still great. Wish I could compose for any instruments other than piano. I'm excited to hear your next piece!


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## Captainnumber36

derin684 said:


> Yes, I did hear some tonal aspects when I listened again. But it's still great. Wish I could compose for any instruments other than piano. I'm excited to hear your next piece!


I'm sure if you put the effort in, you could learn how to express yourself with multiple instruments. Just download one of those programs that are free on the internet and start experimenting!

I'm content just composing for solo piano, personally.


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## nikola

'Critical Mass' is pretty much a meaningless mess to my ears, but '3 Part Quartertonal Miniature' is weird, yet brilliant piece. Too bad it is so short, but I must admit that it is very exciting little piece of music to listen to and it makes a lot of sense as idea.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my latest piece.






Also here is an updated version of this piece. I added a couple of bars, the middle part did feel a bit too brief to me.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version.


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an updated version.


Not bad, but we, your fans, prefer stuff like 'oriental pentatonic' and 'quartertonal'.
Thank you.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an updated version.


I think it starts out strong, but gets a bit repetitive after a while.


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think it starts out strong, but gets a bit repetitive after a while.


I wouldn't say repetitive, I kept changing things up, with a lot of variation. There was in fact hardly anything repeated. This is my nephew's favourite piece. He doesn't like the dissonant ones, maybe in time.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

I know for a fact that I don't like the Neoromantic piece, but I can't quite figure out why.

It sounds a little bit... hollow? Romantic pieces usually should have this air of definitive emotion to them, but for some reason this one feels rather empty. Dunno.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is my latest piece.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also here is an updated version of this piece. I added a couple of bars, the middle part did feel a bit too brief to me.


The faux-oriental piece has a lot of rhythmic hiccups. 
Little emebllishments that seem to disrupt the flow of the piece.


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## E Cristobal Poveda

Phil, Critical Mass could do with removing the snare part. A lot of it should be rewritten to try and avoid any concrete sense of time. 
Because a lot of it is free-form, the inclusion of consistent percussion kinda ruins the otherwise interesting parts.


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## Phil loves classical

E Cristobal Poveda said:


> The faux-oriental piece has a lot of rhythmic hiccups.
> Little emebllishments that seem to disrupt the flow of the piece.


This piece is heavily influenced by Bartok's Mikrokosmos, as some may hear, where there are different voices and lines interjected. Also this piece obviously.






The neoromantic study is one of my personal favourites. It is actually a response to my Romanticism as superficial grandstanding thread in the main forum, to have a singing melody and variations and syncopation and stuff more modern rather than exuding emotion. Finally the Critical Mass is heavily influenced by Leonard Roseman where he used some beats and stuff in his Lord of the Rings soundtrack. The snare drum I thought was an interesting counterbalance with the freer stuff, and is used more sparsely. I actually have a program in mind of mad scientists back in the 40's developing the nuclear reaction, and it adds a bit of coldness. The last part is like a countdown with unexpected accident as a result


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I wouldn't say repetitive, I kept changing things up, with a lot of variation. There was in fact hardly anything repeated. This is my nephew's favourite piece. He doesn't like the dissonant ones, maybe in time.


Perhaps the same rhythmic pattern is what I was picking up on in terms of repetition.


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Perhaps the same rhythmic pattern is what I was picking up on in terms of repetition.


I was wondering about it while I was writing it. But rather than writing other episodes and blending it in like I usually do, I saw it as a challenge to vary the harmony, structure, and register while holding the pattern further. Eventually I had to change up the rhythm a bit, especially for the climax.


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## beetzart

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an updated version.


You need more ideas to fatten up these pieces as they don't do much that is particularly interesting IMHO. They are nice but need more oomph and development.


----------



## Phil loves classical

beetzart said:


> You need more ideas to fatten up these pieces as they don't do much that is particularly interesting IMHO. They are nice but need more oomph and development.


I think for the amount of time they take, they don't lack development especially harmonically, being mainly etudes and preludes. If I had to develop more I would want to get paid for it. I currently working still on the romantic theme with a piece that takes more risks.


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## beetzart

So you could switch to being a pro composer then if need be; not compose longer then 3 mins for the sheer love of it?


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## beetzart

Phil, I may have missed it but do you have the scores to your compositions please?


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## Phil loves classical

beetzart said:


> Phil, I may have missed it but do you have the scores to your compositions please?


I usually don't post scores, takes a lot of work. PM me which one you wanted to see?


----------



## beetzart

Phil loves classical said:


> I usually don't post scores, takes a lot of work. PM me which one you wanted to see?


Ok, thank you. I use Sibelius 8 and it is an amazing piece of software, makes life easier. What do you use?


----------



## Phil loves classical

beetzart said:


> Ok, thank you. I use Sibelius 8 and it is an amazing piece of software, makes life easier. What do you use?


Mainly Musescore, and Lilypond once in a while (Musescore can't do quartertones)


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my new piece. It is probably my wildest one.


----------



## beetzart

Is it in E minor?


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## Phil loves classical

beetzart said:


> Is it in E minor?


C#minor actually.


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## beetzart

Phil loves classical said:


> C#minor actually.


Minor 3rd out, not bad. Although it did feel atonal in places.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version, The ending seemed to come kind of abruptly to me with the first version.


----------



## Phil loves classical

I updated this piece. It's become my personal favourite of mine. I don't really have any more goals after this piece, and will be taking an indefinite break from writing.






Here is an updated version of this one too, after studying Varese's Ionization a bit. The rhythms and percussion should be a bit more fluid.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new ditty I was working on






Another update this this one.






Tweaked the accompaniment on this one as well


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new ditty I was working on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another update this this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tweaked the accompaniment on this one as well


You are proving to be quite diverse in your composition! I enjoyed the Etude and Summer Prelude quite a bit. I found the first one a bit cliche, I felt like I've heard that piece a million times before in Chinese Culture.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a new little thing I finished.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new little thing I finished.


That's really hip and happenin'! It sounds like the love child of Schoenberg and Gershwin, with a slight affair with Rachmaninoff.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an obvious Debussian-style type of piece.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version with a more upbeat middle section


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## ollv

Honestly speaking this is a better composition I listened here in academic style. seems to me it is very simple to make a thing which placed in "no human soul feeling rules" place. But there is harmony compromiss between dissonancess and "human soul feeling" in this composition I like it. Maybe I would like to heard some more prcussions envolving. I felt something like of this., but in general I like it.
Also I'd like to say that debussi here only as influent, just as traits. but there is (I believe) others traits . and in a fact it is yours.


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## ollv

here : in today composers.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of this piece. Fixed up some articulations and the orchestration in spots.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an updated version of this piece. Fixed up some articulations and the orchestration in spots.


Very proper I find it, enjoyable!  Your totally always out of your own box, which is impressive.


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## Captainnumber36

And it's actually a longer work, congrats on that too.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. 12-tone but not strictly by the rules except for one part in the middle I used Webern's mirror technique.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piece. 12-tone but not strictly by the rules except for one part in the middle I used Webern's mirror technique.


I think I'm not big on atonal.


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## ollv

I like atonal, but I am not familiar with theoretical question about it. I would like to realize what does it mean theoretical question in music. I am sure that it is bit differences with math theory, because it is not deterministic question, we are unable to provide theory for write music. 
Maybe we able to recognize is it atonal or no, but I do not believe to atonal only for atonal, ..


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## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> I like atonal, but I am not familiar with theoretical question about it. I would like to realize what does it mean theoretical question in music. I am sure that it is bit differences with math theory, because it is not deterministic question, we are unable to provide theory for write music.
> Maybe we able to recognize is it atonal or no, but I do not believe to atonal only for atonal, ..


There is nothing mathematical in atonal music, no matter what some atonalists may claim, at least the mathematics behind is unintelligible to the ear. It is really just unconventional combinations of sounds arranged in recognizable forms in the case of Schoenberg. With Webern there are some geometrical transformations which you can hear, like imitation, reflections.


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## ollv

> There is nothing mathematical in atonal music,


 exactly, and there is no math in music at all. And music theory it is not theory, because it can not be used for compose music.


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## ollv

but, I guess, you have your personal opinion. just tell me about)


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## ollv

sorry for my english. maybe I wrote some unpolite speach. I just wanted to speak about philosofy question abut percentage: theory / intuitive activity in composition.


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## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> sorry for my english. maybe I wrote some unpolite speach. I just wanted to speak about philosofy question abut percentage: theory / intuitive activity in composition.


Music theory by itself can't be used to compose. I read somewhere the old way was that composers would have pupils who mimic their style. I don't think there is a certain percentage that theory can be used to compose. But it should be checked against it, and used to analyse. There are rules/guidelines that can be broken from time to time, but those are there to help the music sound better. Also different styles/genres have different guidelines


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## Phil loves classical

Added a bit more to the climax of this piece. Previously I called it Neoromantic, but I think now that Neoclassical is more appropriate.


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## Phil loves classical

This was a submission in the last contest. I tweaked it a bit since for better flow. It is a canon of a randomly generated 12 tone row, which I made several iterations to the rhythm to get the best possible chromatic harmony and counterpoint. I used Messiaen's permutations for rhythm on the pitches instead up to the 4th inversion.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a reworked version of my atonal piece, this time avoiding harmonizations.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of an old fugue exercise. I just realized before there was no subject stated in the development section in its entirety, at least according to some fugal formats I've seen.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an updated version of an old fugue exercise. I just realized before there was no subject stated in the development section in its entirety, at least according to some fugal formats I've seen.


I think it's a nice exercise, but not fun listening.


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think it's a nice exercise, but not fun listening.


Agree. I don't feel into it. Just made the best I could of the material, although the dynamics could be varied and stuff. But in general the fugue is not a form I would like to pursue further.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a reworked version of my atonal piece, this time avoiding harmonizations.


I think it's really hard to be successful with atonal, this is a miss for my ears...


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think it's really hard to be successful with atonal, this is a miss for my ears...


I like this particular piece. It has some repeating elements I think are a bit funny to me.


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## ollv

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a reworked version of my atonal piece, this time avoiding harmonizations.


The part which beginning from 0:18, I would not like to weakening it at 0:21, 22 26 especially at 29, I would like to more it expressive more and more .. ))
but thinking about rhythmically I like it, also I like these shades. 
I'v got it.


----------



## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> The part which beginning from 0:18, I would not like to weakening it at 0:21, 22 26 especially at 29, I would like to more it expressive more and more .. ))
> but thinking about rhythmically I like it, also I like these shades.
> I'v got it.


I wanted a bit of detachedness to it. I updated it further to add more clarity to some of the chords and notes.


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## ollv

it seemed to me more holistic and more expressive


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece modelled after a couple of Grieg's Lyric Pieces for piano.


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## Phil loves classical

Updated version. Finally got the transpositions right


----------



## Phil loves classical

Still couldn't get those certain chords right. But by trying lots of chords of different keys and modes I got the sound I wanted.


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## ollv

as for me the riif of left hand is short, it is should be longer ... 
righthand interesting theme emerges.
I like fragment from 0:30


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## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> as for me the riif of left hand is short, it is should be longer ...
> righthand interesting theme emerges.
> I like fragment from 0:30


Grieg used a similar left hand pattern in one of his lyric pieces. I varied the attack already more than Grieg did in his. A live version would probably sound more varied in tone. I found a better progression for those chords in the middle that I've been obsessing over.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an improvisational piece for Wind Trio. I was always interested in bird calls in music like classical Chinese, and Messiaen. Here it's in a tonal setting.






Here is the perfected version of this one. I finally settled on a chord progression in the middle after lots of aggravation.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piano study. Even I may publish a book of piano studies.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piano study. Even I may publish a book of piano studies.


I like that you are thinking of ways to make monetary gains from your output! You are talented and should think that way, you are worthy of it. For me, I enjoy performing, but I have lots of practice to do to satisfy myself.

This work is outstanding as well!


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new simple atonal piece based on trichords. I arranged the register and duration just based on what I felt on flow. No variation in dynamics or attack.






Tweaked the harmony a bit on this one, where I felt was off a bit before






Added a repeat in the first part, since the slower section seemed to come in too soon before


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## Captainnumber36

I really enjoy the Chromatic study, very challenging work to perform!


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## Phil loves classical

Wrote this today. I was experimenting with all-interval tetrachords following a friendly discussion on Carter.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Wrote this today. I was experimenting with all-interval tetrachords following a friendly discussion on Carter. Parts of it definitely sound tonal, especially the last part.


I may like it more performed by a human. It sounds more like Jazz to me than Classical! 

Edit: It at least has Jazz elements about it.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I may like it more performed by a human. It sounds more like Jazz to me than Classical!
> 
> Edit: It at least has Jazz elements about it.


Agree, it was kind of Jazzy. The melody shape and rhythm at that speed sounded too recognizably Jazzy at the beginning, and I think the mind doesn't pick up the atonal interactions as much, and selectively makes certain tonal associations, so I slowed the beginning down. I also avoided certain associations and made it more chromatic (and free floating) now.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a revised and expanded version of the electronics piece.






I fixed some major problems I found later in the tetrachord study. Hope no one noticed them before, haha.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of this older piece. I filled out the voicing. It is designed to be an ear teaser with constantly shifting harmony, hence the name.






Here is something easier on the ears. I combined 2 preludes that had a similar pattern and mood together, while they are different sort of scales. They are both obviously Debussy-inspired.


----------



## Phil loves classical

I found this piece a bit hectic previously. Slowing it down gives it a lot more eloquence.






Fine-tuned this one as well.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I found this piece a bit hectic previously. Slowing it down gives it a lot more eloquence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fine-tuned this one as well.


These two were a miss for me. You should give a listen to some of my new works, I've changed quite a bit. Simplified!


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## ollv

If I had more certain pattern I would play sax for these pieses .. (find theme)
But anyway I like this two ..I do not know. I like these emotions ))

PS english is not my native )


----------



## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> If I had more certain pattern I would play sax for these pieses .. (find theme)
> But anyway I like this two ..I do not know. I like these emotions ))
> 
> PS english is not my native )


If I could improvise on the spot and had real piano technique, we could form an avant garde jazz duo, sort of like Coltrane and Monk. Who knows maybe we could have a real underground following


----------



## ollv

> If I could improvise on the spot and had real piano technique, we could form an avant garde jazz duo, sort of like Coltrane and Monk. Who knows maybe we could have a real underground following


 Ah, I am not sure that I know what is real piano technique, it is bit difficult, many techniques, tricks. As I know Monk was unable to play in real professional technique ..but I am not sure at all.
I am just an amateur and playing only what I really like, and what I able play ))


----------



## Phil loves classical

Updated this piece to include serialization of dynamics (according to the duration of each note, the longer the duration the softer). I don't want to play around with the attack, as I feel it ruins the momentum.






Figured I would update this fugue. I redid all the counterpoint, as I think i improved in contrapuntal writing since I first did that fugue.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. A short 2-part invention.


----------



## Captainnumber36

I think the invention is well done.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of the invention. I felt incorporating the sonata form (or modified version of it) would make the structure more satisfying.






Here is an updated version of this prelude. I added a second theme or interlude to change it up before the first theme is repeated and modified. It's a combination of Mozart, Debussy and pop influences.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. I may be pushing it on a few dissonances.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Updated version. In the repeat of the middle section, I would probably encourage a bit of variation or freer improvisation.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Updated version. In the repeat of the middle section, I would probably encourage a bit of variation or freer improvisation.


I like it, laid back, more tonal.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Updated to change the repeat to explore something different, and fixed a few harmonizations






Also this one, which I figured out how to achieve the sound I wanted. Check out the counterpoint with the left hand.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Hear some Bartok on that counterpoint


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## Phil loves classical

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Hear some Bartok on that counterpoint


Yes, used a bit of his symmetrical displacement between voices, but since I wanted to keep it more diatonic, I emphasized certain repeated tones like Debussy more.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a short atonal dance piece






Modified this one too:


----------



## pkoi

I like when post-tonal textures are set to dances. I'm not an expert on baroque dances, but I think you are taking considerable liberties from the dance in your Canarie. However, this does not really bother me. I think with proper instruments and variance in dynamics and articulation, that would sound like a nice small piece by Webern. Perhaps you should try to set it to a larger amount of instruments, perhaps even an orchestra, and try what kind of sound combinations you could get from your material.


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## Phil loves classical

I got that idea from Schoenberg, he called something a Gavotte and varied the meter a bit here and there and added syncopation, which I also did (well to more extremes). Here is a much improved version I just updated. I felt things weren't spaced adequately, and muddled a bit earlier. I used this piece to experiment after MikeH's suggestion on trying to mix different tuplet rhythms in a piece.


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## pkoi

This sounds considerably better now! Good job!


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece of the weirder vein. Used a few tone clusters. Eventually I would like to have a collection of the more expressionistic pieces.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piece of the weirder vein. Used a few tone clusters. Eventually I would like to have a collection of the more expressionistic pieces.


A mix of Jaws and Dvorak's 9th, ! I love this one.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is an old piece I reworked. It is using the diminished scale, with minimalistic techniques with larger blocks than Glass usually uses, hence the title.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is an old piece I reworked. It is using the diminished scale, with minimalistic techniques with larger blocks than Glass usually uses, hence the title.


I like this one a lot! Very fun to listen to, it'd be great music for Halloween.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a reworked version of this piece. It is partly tonal, since I have 2 different sets of tetrachords going at the same time. Different than the way Carter does it, from what i've seen. Took a long time to redo the counterpoint.






I really went over the edge last time on this, and it was unlistenable.






Added some a lot of minor variation


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a reworked version of this piece. It is partly tonal, since I have 2 different sets of tetrachords going at the same time. Different than the way Carter does it, from what i've seen. Took a long time to redo the counterpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really went over the edge last time on this, and it was unlistenable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Added some a lot of minor variation


Still love that last one! You should check out my jam I posted, very dissonant.


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## Captainnumber36

You really improved Minimally Diminished, great job! It was a bit cluttered before.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Reworked this piece, fixing some of the counterpoint and orchestration. It is now mildly polystylish like Max Richter's Four Seasons, realizing i can't match Rossini in is own Classical idiom, I put more modernity into it.






Updated this one too.


----------



## Captainnumber36

The Rossini is fantastic! With Critical Mass, I didn't care for the use of dissonance matched with the playful quality of the rhythm.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is I hope the final version of this piece. Spent last 2 days reworking the orchestration in the tuttis (were basically place holders before) and the crescendo parts. No running time added either. Back to working on shorter pieces after this.






Since I'm at it. I uploaded this one, which is probably my least conventional piece with some more conventional melody. Another ear teaser.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a final version of this orchestral piece. It explores a few modes and keys. The crescendo part is mixing elements of 3 different modes.






This one is probably my most conventional piece.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of this piece, an homage to Liszt. Over the top dramatic, and slightly progressive beyond the romantic period. It is by far my most technically difficult for piano.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Final version, this time I think. I get a cozier feeling with this one. This piece is harder to pull off.






I thought I would share a passage in the intro of Brahms Violin Concerto I always found drove me a bit nuts. It sounded he had a grander thing going, so I always expected some progression but instead he just performed diminution on the same unchanged theme (I think likely leading to some critics dismissing his music as "meaningless twaddle" as some called it as an example). It sounded too rigid to me anyway. Here is my imagined progression after the original shown first.


----------



## Captainnumber36

The Brahms was exciting, nice work!


----------



## Phil loves classical

This is a canon at the beginning of this serenade. It combines simple, interval, and inversion types.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Updated these pieces. One of the reasons I've updated a lot of pieces lately is I got new decent speakers which reveal a lot more detail and clarity my internal PC sound speaker didn't previously. Also I think I've reached a higher level of comfort in writing.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Updated these pieces. One of the reasons I've updated a lot of pieces lately is I got new decent speakers which reveal a lot more detail and clarity my internal PC sound speaker didn't previously. Also I think I've reached a higher level of comfort in writing.


I'm happy you are becoming more comfortable with writing!


----------



## Phil loves classical

Improved the chromatic harmony and counterpoint in this version






Was able to achieve more inevitability by changing to a consistent metre (should have known earlier since this isn't a modern sort of fugue). Still have some syncopation in the subject, which I still want to keep. I'll probably leave it at this.


----------



## Phil loves classical

After not knowing exactly what I was aiming for, I finally realized the subject in 2 bars of 4/4 and then 2 bars of 3/4 time, and massaged the counterpoint around this. You may also notice the tonic G rarely appears in the subject, but used the dominant D more. I used to think it was in Mixolydian. I think I always implied G though, even though the final chord is D.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Check out my first Jazz piece. I threw in all the Messiaen modes of transposition scales throughout, along with common Jazz gestures.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Check out my first Jazz piece. I threw in all the Messiaen modes of transposition scales throughout, along with common Jazz gestures.


Is that a play on "In A Silent Way"? I like the work very much!


----------



## Phil loves classical

My virtual soloists screwed up (not me ) and left out the first mode. I had them do another take, and also to fix a few chords and notes.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> My virtual soloists screwed up (not me ) and left out the first mode. I had them do another take, and also to fix a few chords and notes.


sounds a lot better.


----------



## Phil loves classical

I still hated the sound of the sax intro. I thought it was only the sound of the sax, but I found out the register or notes had something to do with it. Here it the sax intro sounds much better. Also fixed some other stuff. I think this is the final version or 'master take'


----------



## Captainnumber36

Do you have percussion in your program? It would be cool to hear some on the Jazz piece.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Do you have percussion in your program? It would be cool to hear some on the Jazz piece.


I was afraid it would be distracting at first. I added some here, I'm no Max Roach, but doesn't sound too bad to me.


----------



## Captainnumber36

I think I like it better without drums.


----------



## SergeOfArniVillage

Ok, this thread has a *lot* of music on it. I don't have the mental stamina to go through it all.

Ok Phil: what, say, three pieces of music have you written that you'd like me to listen to?


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## Phil loves classical

^ Depends on your taste I guess. The Italian Girl in Montreal is probably the piece that I spent the most time on. My favourite atonal piece is the Canarie for String Trio. My best counterpoint may be in the Neo-Baroque Serenade.

Posting a couple of updates.

This is based on the notes from ratios of the Fibonacci sequence numbers. Basically just used for a certain palette of notes. I repeated certain bar blocks sort of as a musical joke. This is the last of my updates of older pieces.






I learned a bit of Jazz drumming (at least conceptually). I couldn't find any suitable common drum patterns in 3/4 time with faster than 16th notes for the faster parts, so I made up a certain drum pattern I think is pretty doable.


----------



## SergeOfArniVillage

Ok, lets see.

The Fibonacci one: odd, mysterious, but very colorful. I like how the dissonances come to surprisingly clean, consonant resolutions, I wasn't expecting that. Did you stick very strictly to the Fibonacci calculation? If so, that's a fascinating insight into how a pattern can literally just resolve on its own.

The Jazz one: ooohhh, the piano riffs are just delicious. Easily my favorite part about it. In fact, everything about this is totally convincing. The percussion, the sax, but you really outdid yourself with the piano part. The only sad thing is, that the sax sounds fake and mechanical. I mean, all of this is MIDI, but none of it actually _sounds_ like a MIDI performance, except for the sax, which is unfortunate. It sounds awesome compositionally, I just wish you had a better sound sample.

(Also, the mental image of Nikola's ears bleeding from this "horrible dissonant music" makes my soul warm and fuzzy. Incidentally, did you know that some critics of Chopin called his writing "ear-shatteringly dissonant?")

This one gets A+++ from me.


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## ollv

Hi Phil how are you ?)) 
Regarding your's jazz composition. There is interesting improvisation after 0:27. As I understood you have used some atonal technique. It is enough interesting for me. I'll try to learn it

Fibonachi : Xi = fibo(X[i - 1]) + fibo(X[i - 2]) )))


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## Phil loves classical

Check out this new orchestral ditty. I think the composer I based on is pretty obvious.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Check out this new orchestral ditty. I think the composer I based on is pretty obvious.


It starts off nice, but some of those dissonant passages in the middle didn't do it for me. They felt a bit forced in there.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> It starts off nice, but some of those dissonant passages in the middle didn't do it for me. They felt a bit forced in there.


It's actually not dissonnance, but a switch to another key for contrast.


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## Captainnumber36

nm, it's there!!!


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## Captainnumber36

Somewhere between 28-32 and 1:30-1:37 I hear notes that don't please my ear. It might just be the software.


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## Captainnumber36

Edit: I take that back, the melodic flow is nice. There are some really nice passages in there that I really enjoy.


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## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> Hi Phil how are you ?))
> Regarding your's jazz composition. There is interesting improvisation after 0:27. As I understood you have used some atonal technique. It is enough interesting for me. I'll try to learn it
> 
> Fibonachi : Xi = fibo(X[i - 1]) + fibo(X[i - 2]) )))


Not atonal. Just a lot of different scales starting at different registers and notes. Eric Dolphy was who I had in mind in particular.



Captainnumber36 said:


> Edit: I take that back, the melodic flow is nice. There are some really nice passages in there that I really enjoy.


I understand how you felt about the key change, I really disliked them in Classical before, they would throw me off, and just didn't sound good to me. It took a while to train my ear to accept them.


----------



## ollv

> Not atonal. Just a lot of different scales starting at different registers and notes. Eric Dolphy was who I had in mind in particular.


 yes )) I heard it. There are not atonal fragments. But in general ...


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> Somewhere between 28-32 and 1:30-1:37 I hear notes that don't please my ear. It might just be the software.


Hey Capt'n you may be right. There were in fact some bad harmonizations and stuff around that time and others. Here is a cleaned up version.


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## Captainnumber36

I still hear something at 1:32-1:36 that is unpleasant. Everything else sounds good though!


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I still hear something at 1:32-1:36 that is unpleasant. Everything else sounds good though!


Oh that. That line contains my musical signature I put into my orchestral pieces, a loose 4 note motif. I threw in that line to include more individualism and a bit of humour. I already showed to make that dissonance more quiet, but still wanted it to be heard.


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## Phil loves classical

Felt the theme around 0:55 was still too easy going, so I changed the harmony to something more gritty.






Tweaked and reworked the orchestration in the last part.


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## Captainnumber36

I like the second one a lot!


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a more abstract study probably for grade 3 level, with overlapping hands, odd time signature, and passive ear training.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a more abstract study probably for grade 3 level, with overlapping hands, odd time signature, and passive ear training.


I wish it were less dissonant.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I wish it were less dissonant.


Here is an updated version. Not nearly enough contrast in the first version.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Not your style I know. It's more in the style of Bartok, one that shaped a big chunk of my hearing. Here are some of his great pieces to accustom your ear to more dissonance. The first is the one I had in mind for my piece.


I can hear the influence.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Forgot this piece I updated. In this one I wanted to replicate an original duet of the qin dulcimer and mandolin together on the piano.






I'm sure you all are sick of hearing this one as I am. But I think I fixed the counterpoint to sound decent here.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Forgot this piece I updated. In this one I wanted to replicate an original duet of the qin dulcimer and mandolin together on the piano.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you all are sick of hearing this one as I am. But I think I fixed the counterpoint to sound decent here.


Enjoyed both of them, especially the first one though!


----------



## Phil loves classical

Varied the left hand rhythm more on this one.






I felt I didn't explore as much pentatonic sonorities as I could have before on this one. I added a few bars with some different combos. Also varied that return to the beginning in the last part to make it less corny.


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## Captainnumber36

I loved the changes in the second work!


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece for piano.






I feel I got this one right:


----------



## Captainnumber36

The new piano work has some really interesting sections, it sounds like Picasso in music (in a good way). It also had some parts I didn't like, which I'm sure you'd be able to guess what those are.

The second one is beautiful!


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## Phil loves classical

Updated version of this, adding a couple of contrasting sections.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Updated version of this, adding a couple of contrasting sections.


I like this version better, and there are still lots of sections that I find interesting, but there still remain some atonal bits that don't do it for me.


----------



## Captainnumber36

And I'm not completely against atonal bits, just for the record.


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## Phil loves classical

I didn't include a development section previously for my previous octatonic fugue, which I made one this time. The dynamics aren't really distinguishable in the mp3 for some reason.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version. I think I pushed the tempo too hard before at parts. Also the climax wasn't properly set up.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Ironed out some wrinkles, and problems with coherence/continuity before (would like to get something off my plate, but just can't over a couple of sessions usually since the ear has to reset itself). Check out the counterpoint.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Ironed out some wrinkles, and problems with coherence/continuity before (would like to get something off my plate, but just can't over a couple of sessions usually since the ear has to reset itself). Check out the counterpoint.


I think it's a forward thinking take on the genre.


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## Phil loves classical

This was my first atonal piece, which I just added a section, since it didn't sound final enough at the end previously. The compositional process is dead simple and straightforward for a dodecaphony piece. I selected the tone row specifically to fit the string arrangement to what I felt had a certain arc and balance, and did all the usual transformations, to achieve a certain autonomy at the same time.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> This was my first atonal piece, which I just added a section, since it didn't sound final enough at the end previously. The compositional process is dead simple and straightforward for a dodecaphony piece. I selected the tone row specifically to fit the string arrangement to what I felt had a certain arc and balance, and did all the usual transformations, to achieve a certain autonomy at the same time.


I really enjoyed this one, thanks!


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## Phil loves classical

Here's one of my more tuneful ones updated (maybe 20% pop). I always thought it was originally a lot weaker than its companion piece.






I improved the voice leading for the fugue a bit, to maintain at least 2 voices without large jumps between bars at all times. Basically with all the same content as the previous version.


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## Captainnumber36

I enjoy both!


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. I took more time for review, so hopefully it's final with no revisions.


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## Phil loves classical

Feel parts of the flow and some of the densities weren't right before. I feel I got it right now






I felt I didn't get the ending right before on this one.


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## Captainnumber36

The first one I think has lots of potential, it's really fun, but gets kind of cluttered in notes at parts I think.


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## Captainnumber36

Figmentation is some of the most exciting music I've heard from you, to my ears anyways!


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## Phil loves classical

I thoroughly updated the counterpoint on this one the last 3 days, but kept the same structure. I felt I didn't take explore the major/minor possibilities of the scale at all before. Also the voices weren't that independent, and felt kind of generic.






This is the last piece I updated with the ABA(prime) structure that I was before too lazy to develop more before return of the A prime, which felt the ending wasn't warranted. This is more obviously inspired by Bartok.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I thoroughly updated the counterpoint on this one the last 3 days, but kept the same structure. I felt I didn't take explore the major/minor possibilities of the scale at all before. Also the voices weren't that independent, and felt kind of generic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the last piece I updated with the ABA(prime) structure that I was before too lazy to develop more before return of the A prime, which felt the ending wasn't warranted. This is more obviously inspired by Bartok.


They sound good, I especially like how the fugue keeps progressing.


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## Phil loves classical

Been tinkering with this sucker for last 6 days. I couldn't get the contrast I wanted without some transposition. Here is my hopefully final version.






I used a simliar technique to this piece by Bartok.


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## Captainnumber36

I think the second one sounds too much like an exercise.


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think the second one sounds too much like an exercise.


He meant for it to be for learning/training purposes. I'm glad he did, makes it easier to analyse. If you ever want to get into writing modern sort of music, his Mikrokosmos is probably the best place to start to analyse.


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## mikeh375

Phil loves classical said:


> Been tinkering with this sucker for last 6 days. I couldn't get the contrast I wanted without some transposition. Here is my hopefully final version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I used a simliar technique to this piece by Bartok.


Concise work Phil, I appreciated the rigour which gave the whole a consistency. You could have expanded it a little more, perhaps a quicker (augmented) section with more motivic development and in a higher register before stretto or final section. That might have helped your quest for contrast and introduced a flight of fancy if desirable.


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## Phil loves classical

For those not sick of this piece, I took Mike's advice, and added 2 smaller parts, incorporating the retrograde of the subject, first with a restatement of the inversion (which I stated in various times) with stretto both times, and massaged the parts around it.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> For those not sick of this piece, I took Mike's advice, and added 2 smaller parts, incorporating the retrograde of the subject, first with a restatement of the inversion (which I stated in various times) with stretto both times, and massaged the parts around it.


You're obsessed with this one! lol. As The Beatles said, "It's Getting Better All the Time".


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a short ditty of an original folk style melody from somewhere in Europe I'm guessing. Was a big mistake not to finish the bass line earlier, somewhere in the middle. The bass is truly an anchor.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a short ditty of an original folk style melody from somewhere in Europe I'm guessing.


Beautiful, I say!


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## Phil loves classical

I changed one note in the theme, but it makes all the difference to the harmony in the canon. Also added a few double stops in the bass to smooth out some awkward parts.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a short mini waltz.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a short mini waltz.


I thought you didn't like Waltzes!  It isn't my style, but it's good in what you are going for.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I thought you didn't like Waltzes!  It isn't my style, but it's good in what you are going for.


I hate the conventional style waltz. Tinkered with it over a couple days. I'm addicted to this version.


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## Captainnumber36

I enjoyed the changes! A little more palatable now.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Ever try writing or playing music just from your stream of consciousness? The study in All-Interval Chords seemed to open it up for me.

Here is a piece, in the form of a canon, which follows some counterpoint rules loosely, but mainly from a weird innate sense. It seems I favour 2nds and 7ths. It's funny to edit a stream-of-consciousness piece, but I took out the tempo changes (was a real bad idea), and fixed a few more errant pitches, and it became a lot more coherent. The beginning even reminds me of Sheherezade.






Also an update on this. Added a faster variation.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Check this out. I think what I intuitively was aiming at was some kind of chromatic displacement similar to Prokofiev's music. I revamped it, and added a section in the middle, though I doubt it is finished. There is clearly a harmonic system (or more like technique) at work (at least to my ears). In this version I actually did displace the 2nd voice imitation by a Minor Second, not only within the lines. So some notes are somewhat twice removed chromatically.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Somehow this morphed from an incoherent piece of trash to a killer boogie. Check this out. Fine tuned it further. The technique is more apparent now.


----------



## Phil loves classical

I felt I should post an update, even if you're sick of hearing a short piece like this reiterated several times. I took mental notes so I can streamline the process in the future. The harmony is a lot more precise now, but I can't say clearer. It has weak tonality, and does not linger on any key. My ultimate ear teaser so far.


----------



## Phil loves classical

No, not another iteration of the Canon, but wouldn't have been surprising. Here is a piece I worked on last couple days. I thought of writing something longer, but if it works as a shorter piece I'd always opt for it. Pretty sure it's performable, although beyond my limited technique.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Perfected these 2. They're what i tried to achieve in a lot of my other music: mostly through-writing, unconventional functional harmony, form. The etude sound file shows the limitation of Musescore in not being able ot differentiate different dynamics in different voices at the same time in the first part.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Definitely went the extra mile on this one. I'm calling it a one movement sonatina.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Definitely went the extra mile on this one. I'm calling it a one movement sonatina.


I really enjoy that opening line.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Check out this sucker. I wrote it within the last 24 hours. I think I'm becoming more efficient, using my latest technique. I'm thinking this should be the 3rd movement, with a slower or very fast movement in the middle.






Also updated this. Works better with strong diatonic implications.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Check out this piece. They both were derived (very loosely) from the so-called Sonatina, but I think they are better as stand-alone pieces.






Polished this one up. Probably the most harmonic development in any of my pieces regardless of length.


----------



## ollv

This is like of your Etude, but as for me Etude more interesting ))) 

My friend, I trying to advice your, I am not sure it will be polite (english is not my native). But your should ply life piano 
Improvisation will help you to catch something very interesting. It is magic 
Also (I do not like to Shnitke) Snitke told that music is dead in notes. 
Also I would like to propose, If you have desire we would talk in real (skype viber anything). I hope, I more tenacious speaker than writer. I am sorry.


----------



## ollv

And by default )) you do not worry about themes. Just forward !!! May be it is good idea, in this style ... 
This "new music style" like of do not touched fields) I like it.


----------



## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> This is like of your Etude, but as for me Etude more interesting )))
> 
> My friend, I trying to advice your, I am not sure it will be polite (english is not my native). But your should ply life piano
> Improvisation will help you to catch something very interesting. It is magic
> Also (I do not like to Shnitke) Snitke told that music is dead in notes.
> Also I would like to propose, If you have desire we would talk in real (skype viber anything). I hope, I more tenacious speaker than writer. I am sorry.


Don't be sorry about your English. You get your point across well.

My interest in improvisation is pretty limited. I often find it one-dimensional, and kind of fake. To me, form elevates music to much greater heights than improvisation, and you can condense ideas or present more than one the same time, which you can't do in improvisation. 'Personal message' me anytime. I don't have Skype or Viber (I'm not that social).

Check out this version for those not sick of it. I used a variant of the sonata form for this, and sorted out the diatonic/chromatic differences. Beside my octatonic fugue is probably the most structured and developed piece I made. Maybe I should call this a sonatina.


----------



## Phil loves classical

ollv said:


> This is like of your Etude, but as for me Etude more interesting )))
> 
> My friend, I trying to advice your, I am not sure it will be polite (english is not my native). But your should ply life piano
> Improvisation will help you to catch something very interesting. It is magic
> Also (I do not like to Shnitke) Snitke told that music is dead in notes.
> Also I would like to propose, If you have desire we would talk in real (skype viber anything). I hope, I more tenacious speaker than writer. I am sorry.


It may not sound it, but the moderato (at least the latest version) was way harder on me to write than the etude or anything else I wrote. I had to juggle a few different things while (trying) not losing sight of each. I don't think it can be done in improvisation, at least from what I've heard. Eric Dolphy was the best improviser ever, in my book, but he can't even approach the lowliest of Classical composers. I used to think that sort of music is complex, but is more on the surface, I've realized. Listening to some 'light music' like Handel's Water Music recently, I was blown away realizing how much it would take to write something like that.

Here is an interesting video on Coltrane's Giant Steps a friend showed me. What they don't tell you is there is a more simple explanation behind those sequences (they are linked chromatically). For me, once the mystery is solved, it just isn't as interesting.






I couldn't find that quote by Schnittke. I like his music, but I think he's wrong in saying that.


----------



## ollv

I do not like Coltrane. He was unable to compose music like of Theloniuous 
I am sure that mot genoiusly compositions has been composed by IMPROVISATION 
procokiev, Chaikovskiy Bah during improvisation---
Bach, Beyhovem also 
i told no about some tranformoric rules


----------



## Phil loves classical

Check out this new piece. One of my more tuneful ones lately. It is actually the 2nd movement. I'm making the moderato the first.






Also finally got this sucker right, as I envisioned it. I limited the chromaticism, and focused on making it diatonic. It was a very rough ride getting it right. Almost gave up a few times.






Ollv, I guess I we have a different idea of improvisation. Bach, Prokofiev and Tchaikovsky to me are not improvisational, and are very composed. You might find my new piece here improvisational, but I don't see it that way.


----------



## ollv

> Ollv, I guess I we have a different idea of improvisation. 
)) i guess. ( am suree yees) Sorry about my keeybooard, it is brrookeen.
Also i am sure that one of approach (and single ) to catch up the theeme - iis improvise
prokofiev especially


----------



## ollv

i coouught yooouurs theemeee 
last uppload? trry to analiisee 
1.39 also add some bass pattern It'll be iinterest.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is a short canon I did to pass the time.


----------



## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a short canon I did to pass the time.


I think you have accomplished what you wanted, even if it's not to my taste. Good job!


----------



## Phil loves classical

Here is another ditty I did to pass the time.


----------



## Phil loves classical

I took the best part of another piece (same tempo) to add to the middle for more structure.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Going ligetish?


----------



## Phil loves classical

Check this out. I took my time with this one, working on and off for almost 2 weeks, rather than rushing through as usual.


----------



## ollv

this is good one. One of most interested of your pieces. But like of fragment of something grandiosely. I would say after few moment of begin. as for me ))


----------



## ollv

I listening it few times )) and would like to listen again.


----------



## mikeh375

I like it too Phil. You could easily get a few more minutes out of that.


----------



## ollv

mikeh375 said:


> I like it too Phil. You could easily get a few more minutes out of that.


half minutes (or few seconds) before will be enough )) just prelude some enter) of magic ))


----------



## Phil loves classical

mikeh375 said:


> I like it too Phil. You could easily get a few more minutes out of that.


Ya, I think I lost focus near the end, and it does seem to end kind of abruptly.

Updated the last part and a few other tweaks. Not exactly a few more minutes (more like 15 seconds), but i don't want to spend another week on it.


----------



## ollv

two chords before will make this composition more consistent. obviously as for me
m/b if I have enough time I will play this chords I hear those
I would say this is very expressive like of Prokofiev but with modern mind


----------



## Phil loves classical

^ Thanks, but I don't think it's any more modern than Prokofiev. I'm thinking some stuff he did probably influenced me, but it's not nearly as sharp and provoking (in a good way) as the stuff he did.


----------



## ollv

Hm. maybe this is due to the fact that your composition is new, I've never listen before )) 
But not only, I hear something, may be I will form my idea more detailed later 
Especially Prokofiev have some ... oups I would not like to say it ))


----------



## mikeh375

Phil loves classical said:


> Ya, I think I lost focus near the end, and it does seem to end kind of abruptly.
> 
> Updated the last part and a few other tweaks. Not exactly a few more minutes (more like 15 seconds), but *i don't want to spend another week on it.*


good...spend a few weeks instead....it's worth the effort. Perhaps it's time to start moving up the 
keyboard to see what you find there. It definitely has something about it Phil.


----------



## 1996D

Phil loves classical said:


> Ya, I think I lost focus near the end, and it does seem to end kind of abruptly.
> 
> Updated the last part and a few other tweaks. Not exactly a few more minutes (more like 15 seconds), but i don't want to spend another week on it.


What is the purpose of all these pieces? It sounds like a pacman machine.


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## 1996D

I finally have a serious piece coming and perhaps this will be the one to change the tide. Would you not want to try to write actual music instead of practising intellectual onanism?


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## Phil loves classical

1996D said:


> I finally have a serious piece coming and perhaps this will be the one to change the tide. Would you not want to try to write actual music instead of practising intellectual onanism?


Hey, nice to see you here, Dave. I just like to try out different stuff. Hope you're better prepared for your next piece.


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## mikeh375

Phil loves classical said:


> ......... I just like to try out different stuff. .. .


you've got a great attitude Phil.


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## 1996D

Phil loves classical said:


> Hey, nice to see you here, Dave. I just like to try out different stuff. Hope you're better prepared for your next piece.


Nice to be here, I couldn't access this sub forum before.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Ya, I think I lost focus near the end, and it does seem to end kind of abruptly.
> 
> Updated the last part and a few other tweaks. Not exactly a few more minutes (more like 15 seconds), but i don't want to spend another week on it.


It's full of tension, but I find it pretty.


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## Captainnumber36

1996D said:


> I finally have a serious piece coming and perhaps this will be the one to change the tide. Would you not want to try to write actual music instead of practising intellectual onanism?


I think Phil just likes to toy around with ideas. Based on my interactions with him, it IS more of an intellectual adventure for him. He likes his music more cerebral than emotive, overall, I believe.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version of this one. Much tighter now, and I got rid of some more stagnant harmonies/melodies. Got an idea of extending the last etude, but have to find the motivation to get my hands dirty on that one.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my perfected version in its onanistic decadence. This could be my personal favourite piece.


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## Swosh

onanistic? like pulling out? haha


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## Phil loves classical

Swosh said:


> onanistic? like pulling out? haha


Yes, it's intended to keep frustrating the listener, just as you think there is some kind of consistency or harmonic goal. Plus it works on myself which is self-gratifying.


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## pkoi

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is my perfected version in its onanistic decadence. This could be my personal favourite piece.


I would alter your canon in a way that it doesn't have V-I cadence to D at the end (the last 2 seconds of voice2), it sounds a bit freaky after 1 minute of non-tonal sounds. Also, in the future, try taking the canonic processes further and build harmonies out of canonic techniques. For example you could create a passage of 7 notes out of the chromatic scale, pair it into two groups of three + 1 measure. Then create a second and a third voice under it, which maintain the same intervallic proportions as the prime 7 note row (or whatever amount of pitches you choose) but they are either transpositions, inversions, retrograde or retrograde inversions of it. Try building 3 voice harmony this way and at the same time plan your tone row in such way that the 3 voice harmony in 3 note groups always uses the full 12 notes of the chromatic scale and no note is repeated. When you arrive to the 7th note of the row, begin a new cycle of the row but change the canonic processes in each (if the soprano line was the prime row, it would be now for example a transposition of the inversion and so on).


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## Phil loves classical

pkoi said:


> I would alter your canon in a way that it doesn't have V-I cadence to D at the end (the last 2 seconds of voice2), it sounds a bit freaky after 1 minute of non-tonal sounds. Also, in the future, try taking the canonic processes further and build harmonies out of canonic techniques. For example you could create a passage of 7 notes out of the chromatic scale, pair it into two groups of three + 1 measure. Then create a second and a third voice under it, which maintain the same intervallic proportions as the prime 7 note row (or whatever amount of pitches you choose) but they are either transpositions, inversions, retrograde or retrograde inversions of it. Try building 3 voice harmony this way and at the same time plan your tone row in such way that the 3 voice harmony in 3 note groups always uses the full 12 notes of the chromatic scale and no note is repeated. When you arrive to the 7th note of the row, begin a new cycle of the row but change the canonic processes in each (if the soprano line was the prime row, it would be now for example a transposition of the inversion and so on).


Haha. Sorry for getting you to take the time writing. This was not intended to be a real composition, tonal or atonal. An improvisation more than anything. I just went completely by ear and did whatever captured my imagination, while just using the canon form as an organizing principle to dictate the flow and interaction of the 2 voices. The last thing in my mind was building anything consistent, but rather skirting around different groups of harmonies, wading in and out. Yeah, I knew the last part was something in the major. I had played around with some bitonality or modalities previously, and the sound intrigued me, but was intentionally trying to avoid anything conventional in this case.


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## Phil loves classical

Spent the good part of today on finishing this one. I really don't think I'll be adding any more after this.


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## neofite

Phil loves classical said:


> Check this out. I took my time with this one, working on and off for almost 2 weeks, rather than rushing through as usual.


This is definitely the best of yours to date. I really enjoy it and would not tire of listening to it many times, unlike most [almost all] of today's music. As has already been mentioned, it should be part of a longer piece. I say much longer, even ten or more minutes. I think that developing an opening section might be particularly challenging, but particularly important and well worth the effort. Certainly worthy of another month or two.


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## Phil loves classical

neofite said:


> This is definitely the best of yours to date. I really enjoy it and would not tire of listening to it many times, unlike most [almost all] of today's music. As has already been mentioned, it should be part of a longer piece. I say much longer, even ten or more minutes. I think that developing an opening section might be particularly challenging, but particularly important and well worth the effort. Certainly worthy of another month or two.


My last post was an update on this earlier version, where I think I kind of lost it near the end. I think I developed the material in the last version at around 2 minutes as much as I could keep it tight and interesting, at least as I hear it, and would need to start introducing new material as in themes/motifs, or else do a lot of rewriting to expand the whole thing in proportion.

I can't shake off the feeling that the more or longer I write, the less enjoyable it becomes, for me listening or writing. It sort of becomes a formality in my view. It's also in the way I listen to the old masters. Maybe I just naturally have a short attention span. Also my writing (in English) is usually shorter than what others write as well, maybe that has something to do with it.


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## Captainnumber36

I think you are achieving your goal of making short, serial experimentations. Good work!


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I think you are achieving your goal of making short, serial experimentations. Good work!


Serial? Not lately.

Here is an updated version (I felt the middle part needed a bit of beefing up with something a bit different, not quite atonal but getting there). I'm pretty satisfied with this version having proofheard it several times.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Serial? Not lately.
> 
> Here is an updated version (I felt the middle part needed a bit of beefing up with something a bit different, not quite atonal but getting there). I'm pretty satisfied with this version having proofheard it several times.


I, wrongly, associate all heavy dissonance with atonal music.


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## Phil loves classical

Yes, you guessed it. Another iteration of my last piece. I was able to get into the Zone after tinkering with the middle part for a couple days before really diving in (I'm not the most efficient composer out there). Sometimes it just feels right. I'm going to leave it at this length (I doubled it since the first time) because I want it to remain an upbeat study, rather than a laborious journey


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes, you guessed it. Another iteration of my last piece. I was able to get into the Zone after tinkering with the middle part for a couple days before really diving in (I'm not the most efficient composer out there). Sometimes it just feels right. I'm going to leave it at this length (I doubled it since the first time) because I want it to remain an upbeat study, rather than a laborious journey


I like a lot of the sections to this, some were a bit much for me though.


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> I like a lot of the sections to this, some were a bit much for me though.


Ya, I think I overdid the middle part. It was a bit too grindy. I think I'm going to retire from writing music after this one. It's driving me nuts.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Ya, I think I overdid the middle part. It was a bit too grindy. I think I'm going to retire from writing music after this one. It's driving me nuts.


It does that to the best of us!


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## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> It does that to the best of us!


I think I have a solution. I'm making the climax more subdued like before with the quieter dynamics, or else it calls to much attention to itself and requires a larger buildup. That way I can cut out the more grindy parts.


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## Phil loves classical

Check out the part in the middle. After days of aggravation (ok and lots of whining), I feel I've got it. Just a few bars, but it seems to bridge nicely. It's actually a variation of a previous stop gap (which itself was a variation of some motif earlier in the piece).


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Check out the part in the middle. After days of aggravation (ok and lots of whining), I feel I've got it. Just a few bars, but it seems to bridge nicely. It's actually a variation of a previous stop gap (which itself was a variation of some motif earlier in the piece).


Much much better, I loved this version.


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## Captainnumber36

I think I'm retiring too. I'm all out of interesting musical ideas, if I ever had any, and I'm not used to having writer's block. Plus focusing on my poetry is better for me, I'm getting a better response from it, and I don't have to perform it which gives me great anxiety.


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## Phil loves classical

I think it has to do with progress and satisfaction out of it. I think you're still progressing like your last piece. There is no real end to ideas.

Personally I find a lot of the structural parts of music boring, and just more interested in harmony. So I really enjoyed tweaking pitches and working on voice leading, like on the middle part here, the harmony was kind of iffy before. I'm pretty confident to call this the final version.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> I think it has to do with progress and satisfaction out of it. I think you're still progressing like your last piece. There is no real end to ideas.
> 
> Personally I find a lot of the structural parts of music boring, and just more interested in harmony. So I really enjoyed tweaking pitches and working on voice leading, like on the middle part here, the harmony was kind of iffy before. I'm pretty confident to call this the final version.


You are loaded with talent and should certainly keep composing.


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## Minneapple

I like this, especially when the intensity picks up. It reminds me a bit of a set of piano variations I composed based on the chromatic scale. You could make this much longer and more developed.


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## Phil loves classical

Took a month off, away from this forum to focus on other stuff and distance myself from this last piece. It was starting to really affect my stability. Was disappointed with the middle section coming back, didn't turn out as I had intended. Too many chromatic notes, and the tonality wasn't clear. Here is my final version. This one feels right.

I get the comments it should be longer, but it's just not my style. The last part is the most derivative and easy to do, but I don't see myself doing much of that.


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## Phil loves classical

I gotta stop calling things 'final' version. Haha. Ok, I do think the consonant part still comes in too abruptly, and sounds too final, and seems unwarranted. But I still believe that can be fixed without adding lots of standard development I feel is too predictable, or at least boring to me. I just added a couple bars in the arppeggiated section of a modified clip to add more tension and instability, and made the consonant part accompaniment a bit more dissonant, which seems less out of place. It was too big a jump from A to B previously. I won't bother posting a modified version of these smaller changes.


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## mikeh375

....some really nice touches Phil, I like the double tempo feel towards the end in particular. It works as a study for sure.


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## millionrainbows

I like the last measure.


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## mikeh375

I thought you were banned from these parts MR


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## millionrainbows

mikeh375 said:


> I thought you were banned from these parts MR


You thought right, podnah. click! But things change.

Is this your turf? Btw, that was a sincere response. Whatever it was that Phil did in that last measure, he should do more of.


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## mikeh375

millionrainbows said:


> You thought right, podnah. click! But things change.
> 
> *Is this your turf?* Btw, that was a sincere response. Whatever it was that Phil did in that last measure, he should do more of.


....errr.. no. Why would you even say that? It's just banter as I'd previously read what you had written somewhere.

So let's hear a piece of yours then....


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## Phil loves classical

Someone brought up something about combination tones in some thread on the main forum, and I thought I would try out to see how it sounds.


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## Phil loves classical

The progression felt very incomplete previously. But luckily I found some mathematical validation for this more complete progression. In this exercise I wanted to validate everything mathematically. The frequency tones are accurate to 4 significant digits, even though there is a lot of audible wave distortion from processing the pitch changes on Goldwave. I'm convinced that all diatonic music is in fact hinging on these combination tone relationships.


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## pkoi

Phil loves classical said:


> The progression felt very incomplete previously. But luckily I found some mathematical validation for this more complete progression. In this exercise I wanted to validate everything mathematically. The frequency tones are accurate to 4 significant digits, even though there is a lot of audible wave distortion from processing the pitch changes on Goldwave. I'm convinced that all diatonic music is in fact hinging on these combination tone relationships.


Interesting sounds! For microtonal pitching, I recommend getting Waves Soundshifter. It's a quite old VST, but it retains the sound quality quite well even on large pitch shifts (it allows tuning the voice on the accuracy of cents one octave up and one octave down of the original pitch). It usually costs around 30-50 dollars on their webstore.

The piece somehow reminds me of Arvo Pärt's "Collage sur B-A-C-H". This is mostly because of the steady rhythm and how you drift away from the tonal beginning. Pärt's piece is not microtonal. I really like the part where you have the beautiful descending diminuendo around 00:25


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a refined version of this piece. Slowed it down, and hence the name change. I'm hoping it'll become a big crossover hit. What do you think my chances are? Haha.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern

mikeh375 said:


> I thought you were banned from these parts MR


I know I'm butting into this conversation, but just please quench my curiosity, what in the world does it take for people to get banned here? I haven't been around here for long but I'd imagine you really, really, _really _have to go out of your way to be an *sshole to get banned on an online forum about classical music.


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## neofite

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a refined version of this piece. Slowed it down, and hence the name change. I'm hoping it'll become a big crossover hit. What do you think my chances are? Haha.


I very much like _most_ of it. My only concern is that the greatly repeated two-note "theme"[?] from about 20s to 35s is too long and does not add anything of value to the overall composition. I would like to see it substantially expanded, including with the addition of one or more different, contrasting themes (one replacing the current center section), to a length of about five minutes.

(But who am I to criticize, or even suggest? I couldn't write anything even half as good).


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## Phil loves classical

neofite said:


> I very much like _most_ of it. My only concern is that the greatly repeated two-note "theme"[?] from about 20s to 35s is too long and does not add anything of value to the overall composition. I would like to see it substantially expanded, including with the addition of one or more different, contrasting themes (one replacing the current center section), to a length of about five minutes.
> 
> (But who am I to criticize, or even suggest? I couldn't write anything even half as good).


You're completely right, there is really no development. It's just full of bombast, which for some reason I felt like doing.

I think the best part of the whole thing is the momentum, and juxtaposition of certain tonalities, but in terms of motifs and stuff, is a real mess.


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## pkoi

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a refined version of this piece. Slowed it down, and hence the name change. I'm hoping it'll become a big crossover hit. What do you think my chances are? Haha.


Reminds me a bit of the finale Schoenberg's op.11. Good work! I would pay more attention in audio realisation of this piece. I get it that it's forte-all the way, but you could nuance it a bit in your DAW or notation software. Also, if you like, you could let the tempo live slightly by adding tempo automation here and there. It would just make the demo of the piece more appealing for someone who might be interested in playing it.


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## Phil loves classical

Thanks to both. I'm kind of surprised to see this interest, honestly. I'm thinking I really should put more effort into improving it.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version. I added some dynamics (shoulda done it before), and tweaked some parts, especially to integrate the interlude better. With the same dynamics as before, it gave the impression it was a progression of earlier material, and came out of nowhere. So it wasn't nearly as painful as I feared it would be. Also had to reign in some weirder stuff, so at least the weirdness is more controlled.


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## Phil loves classical

Check this version out. I think what I was aiming for was in fact something more freely atonal. The stronger tonal associations previously were making it more ugly and inconsistent. There are still some obvious tonal associations especially the last part with the pseudo funk bass, but I feel I was able to properly introduce more tonal independence.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is the final version. The missing piece of the puzzle was an augmented 5th on the bass in the first part. Also fixed some voice leading. Pretty confident I got it right this time. This was kind of fun for me to figure out, but probably not that fun for most people to listen to. Forget what I said last post, this works best with some strong tonal associations.

I think my preferred composition method (if you can call it that) is pretty clear to me now. I'm more interested in stacked vertical harmony, and want to find the shortest path horizontally to make it work best (at least to my ears, which is sometimes flip-flops) between points. Narrative is more incidental, and just what I can find at the time.


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## Zeus

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is the final version. The missing piece of the puzzle was an augmented 5th on the bass in the first part. Also fixed some voice leading. Pretty confident I got it right this time. This was kind of fun for me to figure out, but probably not that fun for most people to listen to. Forget what I said last post, this works best with some strong tonal associations.
> 
> I think my preferred composition method (if you can call it that) is pretty clear to me now. I'm more interested in stacked vertical harmony, and want to find the shortest path horizontally to make it work best (at least to my ears, which is sometimes flip-flops) between points. Narrative is more incidental, and just what I can find at the time.


There's definitely something in there. I'd change the beginning so as to introduce the minute-whole run progressively (maybe in the beginning 5 notes, silence then 7, silence, then 3, silence, then everything without stopping, for example), and also tweak the end so as to let people understand it has finished in a coherent way, and not just as if stopping in the middle of a piece.

After tweaking, I'd suggest attempting a larger form, maybe 4-5 minutes, in this style or similar, with contrasting elements


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## Phil loves classical

^ I'll look into that after a break and re-evaluate. I probably still need to find the right balance between provoking, less conventional and something more decent in form. I feel I got the harmonic content right last time I checked, and will look more into refining the structure a bit. I'm trying to envision how your suggestion to the beginning would sound, but I did want something to jump out from the start. Maybe I should expand the first part more somehow.

Ah, whut da heck. You sparked my interest in the piece again. I expanded the beginning, and changed the ending a bit (It ended before the full measure was complete previously, but that was probably too bold a move). It does seem to flow better now.


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## Phil loves classical

For some reason I kept thinking about that sputter in of an intro Zeus suggested while I was sleeping. i decided to try it out at least. It does anticipate the interlude better.


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## Zeus

Phil loves classical said:


> For some reason I kept thinking about that sputter in of an intro Zeus suggested while I was sleeping. i decided to try it out at least. It does anticipate the interlude better.


This is already much more coherent, imo


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## Phil loves classical

Here is what I consider for now my perfected version. The harmony in the first part was too wayward before, that nothing was really established, while the last part was too static.


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## Roger Knox

I think it's a really good piece and since you've added dynamics it stands up well. The contrast in texture and register around the middle is effective as are the accented chords that punctuate the continuing motion. It seems you have a process of working that is your own. (I have an extensive background in composition.)


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## Phil loves classical

Roger Knox said:


> I think it's a really good piece and since you've added dynamics it stands up well. The contrast in texture and register around the middle is effective as are the accented chords that punctuate the continuing motion. It seems you have a process of working that is your own. (I have an extensive background in composition.)


Had no idea you had that sort of background. I noticed you mostly in the Community forum talking about basketball and ideas for stupid threads! I have no methodical process really. I kind of adopted my general approach from doing my building construction project design before at work to this (which is pretty messy), just some kind of initial backbone from jerking around with some sort of pattern, and superimposing other self-contained patterns or ideas, or little motifs and snippets and trying to make it meld by ear, then refining and tweaking. But there are many times I put out stuff I couldn't follow myself when I listened again fresh. I imagine others have a more systematic approach.


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## neofite

Unlike Mr. Knox, I have no formal background in music composition (or even in basketball). This said, let me add that I am enjoying following the evolution of this work. I find it's lively beat and interesting melody/harmony quite pleasant to listen to. My main criticisms now are the very sudden ending and that it is still too short. Some sections definitely deserve to be repeated, perhaps in slightly modified form, or perhaps without modification, prior to a somewhat less jolting ending.


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## Roger Knox

Phil loves classical said:


> Had no idea you had that sort of background. I noticed you mostly in the Community forum talking about basketball and ideas for stupid threads! I have no methodical process really. I kind of adopted my general approach from doing my building construction project design before at work to this (which is pretty messy), just some kind of initial backbone from jerking around with some sort of pattern, and superimposing other self-contained patterns or ideas, or little motifs and snippets and trying to make it meld by ear, then refining and tweaking. But there are many times I put out stuff I couldn't follow myself when I listened again fresh. I imagine others have a more systematic approach.


There are methodical or systematic ways of composing but they're not necessarily "better," and can be "worse!" By process I just mean a way of working, something that varies a lot among composers. But you've identified elements of your process -- (1) from having done building construction project design, which is interesting and rather unique in the music composition field; (2) superimposing patterns and motifs; (3) creating successive versions of the whole piece; (4) putting the versions on the internet one by one and receiving feedback, which is gutsy. I don't give critical evaluations over the internet but will pass on three pieces of advice from my mentors that have proven helpful: listen to your own voices; always project outward confidence; keep going with your composing.


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## Phil loves classical

I had an idea from the latest Mozart thread in the main forum to try to imitate his style, and test whether a suggestion that he recycles and is formulaic is legit. I took the Piano Concerto No. 5 andante as a starting point, and just played around to make a new tune and add some of the trademark stuff he does. I'm not even sure if I stumbled onto something he did before elsewhere. If you recognize it, please let me know. Obviously this is much more condensed that a real Mozart piece. I just wanted to get a general sense.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an updated version. I had too many off-scale notes in the other version. I'm pretty confident on the harmony. The orchestration is a different matter, but I did the best I could without reading books on it. I did this mainly for fun. I don't plan to continue on it.


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## Phil loves classical

BTW here is the score. Any comments on the orchestration is welcome. There are some parts where I sense a loss of clarity but not sure how to fix. I tried to freeze certain phrasing markings, but there may be some unecessary markings still showing.

View attachment 143094


View attachment 143095


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a more presentable score. I tweaked the orchestration a bit from looking at a few more instances of how Mozart does it, and trying to apply his logic.






For some reason it still attaches an older version after the updated score.


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## TalkingPie

The first 2 measures have some charm, but the rest is extremely messy. You have huge, basic mistakes in the harmony and I can barely make sense of anything. You don't even use cadences, which are the basic foundations of the classical style

1) m.4: The unison between vln.2 and vlc+cb is a bit questionable (why not fill the harmony?), but the parallel 5ths with the violas are inexcusable. You're infringing repeatedly one of the top 3 rules of common-practise harmony.

2) m.5: vln 2 plays a G while the rest plays an F#dim7 chord. Minor 9ths must be handled with extreme care, not like this.

3) m.6. beat: cross relationship vln. 1 vs. vla and then parallel 8ves in two otherwise uncoupled parts

4) m.6, beat 4: what does the dominant 7th of Bb major do here? You can't put a jazz Backdoor progression in a classical-era piece, and even if you thought so, the F7 should be preceded by ii, IV, or a suitable chord. That F7 chord only would make sense in the classical style if it was the augmented 6th chord of the key of A (the bass moving chromatically down to E). To summarize, why isn't this a D7 chord?

5) m.8, beat 3 (or 4): The left hand probably needs a G major triad.

6) m.9, the left hand arpeggios are extremely erratic, and even conradict the string harmonies sometimes. In general, there are very few functional harmonies, and some chords aren't even tertian. Mozart's arpeggios are very straightforward and clearly mark the bass of the chord.

7) m.11, I don't know what chords do you want to put here, it makes no sense in terms of voice-leading and functionality, but you have an E-Eb cross relationship.

8) What chord is m.6 beat 2? And why are no dissonances resolved?

Bonus: m.3, 3rd beat: This screams to be a D7 chord, not this strange leading-tone chord. Also, horns in the classical period played the root of the dominant chord of the home key almost invariably.

In retrospective, I may seem a bit brutal, sorry if that comes across this way, I didn't want to. Anyway, if you have doubts, I can share my harmony books from my stash. Cheers!


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## Phil loves classical

^ Thanks for your critique. No problem. I figured in terms of harmony it probably wouldn't fly in the Classical style. The goal was to cram as many Mozartian devices in as short a space as possible, and still keep it as structurally sound as possible. I was running out of bar space in #6, and didn't want to add another in making an odd number of bars, so I left some dissonnances unresolved in that bar, for the piano entry to clean up . i hear you on the piano left hand. I had some regular chord arpeggios at first, but it sounded a bit boring, so I improvised, but i agree it looks bad and assymetric. On the parallel fifths, I was using it as a power chord progression rather than contrapuntally, which I think is accepted, also Mozart did break the rules sometimes on that. On the cadence, it's a single theme, not necessarily a sonata form exposition come to think of it. The reason I attached the score was mainly for comments on orchestration (which I guess is tied into harmony in some way).

I noticed I did omit a left hand pattern for the last bar of the piano. Here is an updated version. You may want to cover your ears (or eyes).


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## Phil loves classical

I was thinking why not tweak a bit and have it more acceptable by Classical standards? I figured the ending to bar 6 and the left hand part would be most contentious, and was able to fix that up easily. Also changed the title. I still think the harmony even if not conventional, is one of those things the Masters were able to get away with. Brahms noticed a lot of parallel fifths in the Masters. I read somewhere as long as it doesn't sound hallow, which it usually does in counterpoint.






It's attaching an older score again after the updated one.


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## TalkingPie

> On the parallel fifths, I was using it as a power chord progression rather than contrapuntally, which I think is accepted


No, this is not accepted. 2 consonant triads in rood position may move in parallel in extremely rare cases (between phrases, between Ger#6 and V, when the top voice is doing figurations), but not 3 or more. Whole theses have been written when Bach did it with 2 chords trying to understand why.

Parallel, consonant triads in root position are inimical to the basics of common-practise harmony (unlike parallel 6/3 chords). Also, power chords have no 3rd (not this case), and they're also inimical to the style outside of rare, obvious folk references (not this case still).

Occasional, "deliberate", unhidden aprallel 5ths don't appear until Liszt and Grieg, and don't become a stable feature until around Rachmaninoff's time (cf. 2nd piano trio).



> On the cadence, it's a single theme, not necessarily a sonata form exposition come to think of it.


You do need some sort of strong cadence within a classical-era theme (in development sections it'd different), and even more if it's a period like this. I'm familiar with all 19 of Mozart's piano sonatas and I can't think of any one lacking a strong cadence in the first 13 measures (if so, I'd like an example to learn). Also, the model concerto you used has many.


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## Phil loves classical

^ As I understand, the parallel fifths rule doesn't apply when there is no intention of independence of voice. I believe the intent is to avoid a hollow sound in counterpoint (which I've heard before and recognize its sound). But anyway I used parallel fifths for 2 chords consecutively only. In the middle of bars 4 and 10 the intervals become 4ths on 3rd and 4th beats (it may be hard to see on the smaller print). 

In general this piece is really just an informal one. I only wanted to present part of an exposition and repeat with piano. I never had an intention of finishing it.


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## Phil loves classical

Beating this one to death. But it's Mozart, so it deserves better. Took out some more questionable things. Also fixed the power chord (there weren't any in Mozart's time) by making it more contrapuntal so the harmony sounds more full.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a cleaned up score. I can see some stuff Mozart wouldn't have done, mostly in handling non-chord tones differently (that I just can't resist). So it's more of a re-interpretation of how I hear his style. I was able to fool my relatives.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a refined version of this piece. I figured out what I wanted in terms of sound. I took out "all-interval" from the title, as I'm sure Mr. Carter would object since I'm using it completely differently than what he intended.


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## Phil loves classical

Here's an updated version. The first line always gave me the most trouble. I feel I got it this time, by putting just enough overlap.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new study. No, I won't make it longer!


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## mikeh375

^^^ Nice Phil..........


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## Phil loves classical

I compiled a set of the latest 3 newest studies. The first one I beefed up the middle which I always thought was the weakest link. Added a couple of short variations/transformations on the last study (No. 2), and fixed up some wonky harmony on Alla Grotto (which I'm setting as No. 3).


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## Phil loves classical

One more variation/transformation for No. 2. To be inserted as c for proper context.


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## Phil loves classical

Added a new variation. I got rid of a couple of previous variations, since they didn't have enough contrast. Here is my final version (at least for now).


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. I tried fixing the old study with overlapping tetrachords to no avail. Just couldn't be refined. Used the same technique for this but I think is much clearer in concept.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piece. I tried fixing the old study with overlapping tetrachords to no avail. Just couldn't be refined. Used the same technique for this but I think is much clearer in concept.


Very interesting work, far beyond anything I could come up with.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a more refined, and less rushed version. Obviously there is an electronic music influence. Also I got the idea for the bass from one of Ligeti's pieces.


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## Vasks

While I have not, by far, listened to most of your endeavors, of those that I have over the years, this one I rate as your best. Forget the process behind its organization. The end result was very satisfying. The character of this work is what stands out as most important to the listener. It comes across as a playful work that refuses to be regular. Its nature of being irregular is what makes it work.

Now, actually with the two contrasting materials (Idea #1 up until the 38 second mark vs the next 12 seconds for Idea #2) could so easily be expanded into a 3-4 minute composition. I suspect you don't care to do so, but I would encourage you to try to stretch yourself in the future. There's no reason to limit the length of your next experimental pieces. You've been there and done that.


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## mikeh375

Vasks said:


> While I have not, by far, listened to most of your endeavors, of those that I have over the years, this one I rate as your best. Forget the process behind its organization. The end result was very satisfying. The character of this work is what stands out as most important to the listener. It comes across as a playful work that refuses to be regular. Its nature of being irregular is what makes it work.
> 
> Now, actually with the two contrasting materials (Idea #1 up until the 38 second mark vs the next 12 seconds for Idea #2) could so easily be expanded into a 3-4 minute composition. I suspect you don't care to do so, but I would encourage you to try to stretch yourself in the future. There's no reason to limit the length of your next experimental pieces. You've been there and done that.


I'll echo Vasks here Phil, this is really good and it's not the first time I've said that to you. Vasks has asked you to stretch yourself with longer lengths as indeed I believe I did a while back with another piece. You really should, for in doing so it will bring up new challenges that you may find you are able to meet.

Are theses studies playback from a notation programme? If so, why not post movie scores as I'm sure we'd all like to see the scores too.


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## Phil loves classical

mikeh375 said:


> I'll echo Vasks here Phil, this is really good and it's not the first time I've said that to you. Vasks has asked you to stretch yourself with longer lengths as indeed I believe I did a while back with another piece. You really should, for in doing so it will bring up new challenges that you may find you are able to meet.
> 
> Are theses studies playback from a notation programme? If so, why not post movie scores as I'm sure we'd all like to see the scores too.


Ya, I did stretch myself later on with Short Study No. 1, and found it a profoundly painful experience, one that I didn't want to repeat. It was past a point where I felt there was diminishing returns/enjoyment. But I do think I learned something from it, and that was more complex than this one.

I'm not sure how to post scrolling scores. It was done with Musescore, and I think you have to pay to put in on their server or something. I'll look into it.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an extended version. I introduced another figure or subject. Not 3 or 4 minutes, but added 50% playing time.


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## mikeh375

Well it still works for me.
As I was listening, I couldn't help but imagine a double bass and drums playing along as an alternative. To my ears there is a distinct modern free-jazz element in there and freestyle accompaniment would not do this piece any harm at all. 
What I do like is a sense of balance I feel between control and imagination. You may or not have meant it as such, but either way, it's a difficult trait to achieve at times.


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## Phil loves classical

mikeh375 said:


> Well it still works for me.
> As I was listening, I couldn't help but imagine a double bass and drums playing along as an alternative. To my ears there is a distinct modern free-jazz element in there and freestyle accompaniment would not do this piece any harm at all.
> What I do like is a sense of balance I feel between control and imagination. You may or not have meant it as such, but either way, it's a difficult trait to achieve at times.


I'm kind of still exploring in my head what you and Vasks meant. I suspect manipulation and evolution of existing motifs, etc. like maybe changing the rhythm on the right hand, or something, rather than introducing some new figure and such.

I'm thinking mayber there isn't enough substance to last 3 minutes. Fixed a few things, and polished it up a bit.


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## Phil loves classical

I think I went a bit nuts on this one. I'll have to reassess after a break.


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## Phil loves classical

Made a real mess last time. I think I got it back on track. I think I understand what Vasks meant now. I could even extend further without too much trouble, but I want to retain a certain mystery.


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## Phil loves classical

Ok, this has to be it, or close to it. Flows much better now. I think I have a bad tendency to jazz things up, and it takes effort to fight that sort of temptation. I'm going to keep it sort of simple.


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## Phil loves classical

I think I got it with the last edit of the last post, and is probably the best thing I've done especially the middle part, but man, it took me all day today to get several bars right (probably edited the last post like 10 times), and lots of brainstorming for a couple of days like the previous edits and hacks. I wonder how people actually write a lot of music. I don't think I can just extend and force my way through, I realized. It seems to take a lot of recycling of failed attempts, and then it's only by exhausting possibilities, before an idea to combine things comes to me.

It's hard for me to come up with stuff relevant and an interesting progression to what is existing which makes it hard to extend.


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## Vasks

Phil loves classical said:


> ... it's only by exhausting possibilities, before an idea to combine things comes to me.It's hard for me to come up with stuff relevant and an interesting progression to what is existing which makes it hard to extend.


The famous quote that is the absolute truth: _"Composition is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration"_

I'll give your final version a spin later.


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## Phil loves classical

Vasks said:


> The famous quote that is the absolute truth: _"Composition is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration"_
> 
> I'll give your final version a spin later.


The tough part is when it's only somewhat tonal. A lot could go wrong (and always does, at least for me). Certain notes you think stand out, don't anymore on a fresh hearing, and get muddled. It's a real fine balance. There seem to be very few hard rules. It's what I like, but also what drives me nuts when trying to work it out.


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## Phil loves classical

Check out this version. I felt none of the stuff I added since my early version lived up to the original stuff. So I just started having fun playing around with some little figures from the earlier stuff. I think a few are more easily recognizable, but there may be stuff less recognizable.


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## Captainnumber36

Phil loves classical said:


> Check out this version. I felt none of the stuff I added since my early version lived up to the original stuff. So I just started having fun playing around with some little figures from the earlier stuff. I think a few are more easily recognizable, but there may be stuff less recognizable.


That's really neat!


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## Phil loves classical

I dunno. I feel the middle part has a different character, and I tried changing it to suit but is not that interesting. I've even tried working with the same sort germs, but it doesn't go anywhere. I'm think the original 1:00 version is the one that does it. I extended it to 1:13 to make it flow better, which I won't bother postimg. There's nothing I was able to come up since either new or reusing the old, that really works in my mind.

An idea could come and strike me later, but I can't actively do something to develop it right now.


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## Phil loves classical

Check out this version. I think it's my favourite, with a pseudo-serial segment that is actually tonal. I think I can get away with it, since the structure was never really set.


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## Phil loves classical

This is the final version. Integrated the new section better. I do think it's my personal masterpiece. I'm thinking I'll either quit or work on something other than miniatures.


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> This is the final version. Integrated the new section better. I do think it's my personal masterpiece. I'm thinking I'll either quit or work on something other than miniatures.


I would say that sounds like something from cca 1971.. probably French or Italian gangster movie called "Bold Basterds"... there is probably a sequel 35 years later called "Bald Basterds" - less bold, more 'peed in the pants', but still basterds! 
I do like it :tiphat:


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## Phil loves classical

Thanks, I think. I still found it too literal (another bad tendency of mine) in the new part and near the end, and fixed it up since. I won't bother reposting, since I'm sure everyone is tired of it.

What the heck. Here it is. Strangely enough (to me at least), it seems to work better when it's more fragmented. I guess it's more post-modern?


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## Phil loves classical

Sorry for the obscene number of posts on a short piece. I do have a question on the notation. I'm not sure if I should have the left hand as tuplets as currently here, or should the right hand be tuplets and change the time signature. I do feel a sort of 2 beat per bar, but it seems to have a lot of tuplets. The part in the middle doesn't have tuplets on either hand, so that is why I have it as it is currently. Or could I use a different time signature on a different staff? I think I've seen Ligeti or someone do that before.

I know the tempo is not standard metronome, it's a bit of a gimmick on using metric.









Here is a final more polished version, with better rhythms in the middle.


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## Phil loves classical

^ I think I solved it by taking out the tuplet in the first half of the 3rd bar and used regular 16th notes instead. The ear doesn't really sense much of a difference, and it is simpler to play, and adds a bit of rhythmic variety at the same time.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece I did today. Not very serious. I maybe shouldn't give it a number.






Added a lead in to the last part for the No. 4, to make it flow better. Considering how much time I spent just adding stuff piece meal, I doubt I'll be getting into longer forms, although I've been looking at some works how the masters did it.


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## nikola

Phil, when will you stop studying and start to work on your real musical masterpiece? We're waiting for a symphony... or at least a sonata.


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## Phil loves classical

nikola said:


> Phil, when will you stop studying and start to work on your real musical masterpiece? We're waiting for a symphony... or at least a sonata.


Just for you Nikola. I took like a week to flesh out just a few parts, and polish this up. I think it's extensive enough to be a mini Sonata movement, and longer than some sonatina movements.

Like I keep bi*ching, I'm not going to go torture myself to do another, let alone make something longer. I think I do want to do a more extensive slower piece.


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## mikeh375

that's a cool piece Phil...onto the next mvt. please. Nikola's right, no more dicking around.
Although, If it was mine, I'd add a little extra line between 30"-45" as it felt a little like groping around to me, a top line might give it more of a sense of purpose. I love the nicely controlled faster lines that follow.


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## Phil loves classical

mikeh375 said:


> that's a cool piece Phil...onto the next mvt. please. Nikola's right, no more dicking around.
> Although, If it was mine, I'd add a little extra line between 30"-45" as it felt a little like groping around to me, a top line might give it more of a sense of purpose. I love the nicely controlled faster lines that follow.


Great idea. I added something in the middle voicing, rather than top, since I didn't want to change the melody. No more movements for me. Just going to dick around from here out.

I changed the rhythms and added more articulations to the middle part of #4, had to make some sort of progression I figured. Added a repeat and changed a few things to #5.


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## nikola

Phil loves classical said:


> Just for you Nikola. I took like a week to flesh out just a few parts, and polish this up. I think it's extensive enough to be a mini Sonata movement, and longer than some sonatina movements.
> 
> Like I keep bi*ching, I'm not going to go torture myself to do another, let alone make something longer. I think I do want to do a more extensive slower piece.


Very interesting and even exciting piece to listen to.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a small ditty inspired by the discovery of the graves at the former residential schools. Musically, it's probably inspired by Ligeti and horror movies.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is another new piece. I'm thinking it's one of the better ones (I should probably take out the Study No.s 5 and 6 from the roster).


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## Phil loves classical

Massaged this sucker around for days. I think it's a lot stronger and clearer now.


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## Phil loves classical

Clean it up further (actually I think I made a bigger mess the last time in some ways). At this point it's just a musical puzzle I'm working out.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece. I basically transcribed some piece for strings I did before with a tone row, and changed the rhythms a bit, and did fixed some of the voicing and tempo. Easily my best new piece in a while I think.


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## Phil loves classical

I made it more free atonal for some of the variations to make it more interesting.


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## Phil loves classical

Trying to find a new direction in music. Lately been kind of spotty. I played around with some more conventional stuff with this new piece.


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## Phil loves classical

I think it was definitely a mistake with the crescendo on such a small scale, which raises expectation to something more grandiose and virtuosic. Here I played with the dynamics to subdue the drama. Some stuff I still can't get right, but I think I'm not that interested in spending more time on it.


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## Phil loves classical

Check out this new piece. I think this one's a keeper. Got the idea yesterday during work.


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## Phil loves classical

Took my time to work out this one. I think it's my best piece in combining tonality with chromaticism.


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## Phil loves classical

Looking a bit beyond each individual piece, I resequenced the studies to make the best of the variety and contrast. One of them didn't really belong with the others, which I left aside. Also some tweaks over some clunky parts. This is my first, and likely last completed 'work'. I really haven't been missing the grind.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a new piece i did last couple of days. I believe the last part is technically possible to play, but could be tough.


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## Roger Knox

Phil loves classical said:


> Here is a new piece i did last couple of days. I believe the last part is technically possible to play, but could be tough.
> 
> Sounds good to me -- it builds well. I would have to see the left hand notes be able to tell whether they lie in a way that is manageable.


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## Phil loves classical

Roger Knox said:


> Phil loves classical said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a new piece i did last couple of days. I believe the last part is technically possible to play, but could be tough.
> 
> Sounds good to me -- it builds well. I would have to see the left hand notes be able to tell whether they lie in a way that is manageable.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Roger. I slowed it down a bit since and added a few more left hand patterns, and more confident it can be played (I think even I can possibly do it now, but I just have a very slow learning curve in learning new pieces). I think I'll be adding a few slower pieces for better contrast with the faster ones, and will have to resequence my 'short studies' sort of like an album.
Click to expand...


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## Phil loves classical

Here's probably my craziest piece. The first part was more conventionally jazzy at first, but I changed it around. I was working with my last piece as a starting point, and just put together the 3 parts together, since I thought it flowed into each other sort of well.


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## verandai

Sounds interesting and unexpected. Maybe it would increase the crazyness level if the rhythm would vary in the middle part. But that's only my personal opinion as a rhythm fanatic ;-)

Maybe the rhythm was your stylistic choice by purpose and I just didn't get it.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is my first piano sonata (or suite) of the year  With the last piece everything seemed to click together for me, and I was able to fix stray tones or slippage in parts for the other 'movements', and it seems to work as a transition piece between the first and 3rd movements which otherwise have nothing to do with each other.

The only question is is it a sonata or suite? I think it's not light enough to be a suite, and is now more cohesive than a set of 4 studies. And I structured it as an Allegro - Largo- Andante - Presto movement structure. (And at a bit under 8' is now much longer than say Ginastera's 3rd piano sonata)


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## mikeh375

Not bad at all Phil. I liked much of the the first part and especially the 3rd mvt. The term 'sonata' is flexible these days so I'd call it that given the 3 mvt. structure.

What would really help your music now imv would be to bring in some more idiomatic writing, rather than lines which can tend to dryness (although I'm personally ok with, and appreciate/enjoy the acsetic nature of music like this). It's not easy to write idiomatically if you are not a pianist I know, but there are plenty of works out there you could study for pianism and finger invention and then incorporate into your writing.

I linked this recently in another thread which you might enjoy. If you get the chance take a listen and in particular, pay attention to how the inventive approach to technical motors keeps the music fresh and gives impetus. You could perhaps model pieces on the techniques here.


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## Phil loves classical

I think the weakest link in the sonata is the 2nd movement which other than the intro was seriously under-realized. Here is an improved version. I do know I have an unhealthy obsession on the lower range of the piano, which I try to balance out, but may need to revisit some parts, especially using the left hand like a bass guitar.

BTW, Mike, I thought I posted a 4 movement sonata instead of 3? Haha.


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## Phil loves classical

I listened to Benjamin's Piano Figures, and reviewed my 'sonata' again, and fixed some more stagnant parts pianistically by adding more register and range, but come to think that overall my aim is not really to do pure Classical, but some sort of polystylistic or alternative Classical thing, especially in the slower movements. I just can't let go of those bass figures hehe.


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## Phil loves classical

Check this out. I hit the reset button, and went back to modify an older study, which was still pretty much sketch at the time. It is slightly serial, as in I used a transposition and 1 sixteenth note phase shift and the rest went by some standard sort of voice leading rules and lots of tweaks here and there.


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## Phil loves classical

Check this out. Forget the last one, it was a real mess.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is an attempt at a piano suite. I think the middle movement is clearly the highlight (which I think I perfected in this version, except the software wouldn't support a half pedal) and the others are more just there.






Here is a Satieish sort of piece just for fun.


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## Phil loves classical

Check this out. It was based off of Schnittke's piano music, which is right up my alley.


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## Phil loves classical

I believe I got it right in this version. It's not as easy as I thought it would be, and have 3 staves for better clarity. I'm happy to stick with minatures, and will probably eventually collect a best-of compilation of say 3 pieces.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is another version. In this one I'm manipulating the natural harmonics between the notes more, something I've started to do with the moderato.


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## Phil loves classical

Been a while. Here could be my last post of my music. I think this is the best presentation of my pieces, and musical personality. Forget the sonata, the material never really suited it. The first 3 are ordered chronologically and become increasingly loose and slow. The 4 piece is the one I changed around the most to take out the filler parts.

I say last because I haven't really found any urge to do anything new, and can't say I have any more goals musically.


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## Phil loves classical

Finally found an idea to follow up the first part with for this one. I think I like the back half more actually. Also updated #3. Still kind of groggy, but I find it somewhat soothing. I think I may eventually replace the 2 slower pieces with something better. I feel they are not as consistent in style or quality as the 2 faster ones.


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## Phil loves classical

On a roll today. I blew up one of the slow pieces and reworked it, and I think it's better than both the slow pieces combined, and I didn't have to spend another lifetime on it. I see this as my first true atonal piece. I guess it's going to be a collection of 3 pieces instead of 4. Now back to retirement.


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## Phil loves classical

Ah shoot, I just realized it was just a revolving tonality, like kicking the can down till the end. Scrap the last posting. It really wore thin on me very quick.


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## Phil loves classical

Here is a much improved version (I can imagine some not hearing much difference). Aside from some dynamics thrown in, the pitch order and some movement changes makes it a lot more spontaneous and less obvious. There is something obscene about the previous version to me. Maybe cuz I tried to make it atonal and it wasn't really at least to me. I think it's still quasi-tonal.


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## Phil loves classical

Check out this piece. I think it's probably my best. The 2 is just #2 piece in what I plan in my collection. I don't think I have any good slow pieces (maybe doesn't suit my style), and will probably just leave out the slow ones.


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## Phil loves classical

Harmony wasn't worked out in previous version. Spent the better part of today hammering it out. I found a way to reset my ear, in between listens of my work. I use Debussy. I planned to be more conservative at first, but something just took over me.


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## hammeredklavier

Phil loves classical said:


> hammering it out.


Yeah, the klavier is hammered. I can hear that.


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## Phil loves classical

I think I'm forcing things to happen in too short a span, and abrupt changes that don't get properly prepared. I'll have to enlarge it, and let it flow more naturally.


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## Phil loves classical

Sorry, to keep beating some of these pieces to death. So listen at your own risk.

I forgot this piece, but is definitely my craziest piece, but with some restraint and not campy like some of my other throwaways. I made the middle more progressive part more flexible and more variety, which I think is the make or break of its success.

Also I fixed #3's structural problems before. The idea is to provide false lead ups to the broader theme heard earlier, but lead to different material. Dynamics play a huge part in that. Also tried to make it as idiomatic for the piano as possible.

For the canon prelude, I think it's a failure, remembering now one discussion on the theory section of the forum how harmony and counterpoint restrain one another, and without abandoning the strict canon form, I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do otherwise. Maybe I will complete it later.


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## pkoi

Phil loves classical said:


> Sorry, to keep beating some of these pieces to death. So listen at your own risk.
> 
> I forgot this piece, but is definitely my craziest piece, but with some restraint and not campy like some of my other throwaways. I made the middle more progressive part more flexible and more variety, which I think is the make or break of its success.
> 
> Also I fixed #3's structural problems before. The idea is to provide false lead ups to the broader theme heard earlier, but lead to different material. Dynamics play a huge part in that. Also tried to make it as idiomatic for the piano as possible.
> 
> For the canon prelude, I think it's a failure, remembering now one discussion on the theory section of the forum how harmony and counterpoint restrain one another, and without abandoning the strict canon form, I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do otherwise. Maybe I will complete it later.


I find both of these pieces quite enjoyable, great job! I especially like how you use rests effectively from around 01:00 onwards until you come back to the low register theme. Also the transitioning back to that low bass theme is done very naturally sounding. You should consider trying to get a live pianist to try these out.


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