# The Challenge of Being a Contemporary of Beethoven eg. Joseph Wolfl 1773-1812



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I've often thought that it must have been somewhat intimidating to have been a contemporary of Beethoven. For some years, I collected vinyl records and CDs of music from the more obscure composers (particularly concertos) dating from the late 18th century to the latter 19th, but the vast access to material from that period on Youtube allows one to do that as never before.

Speaking of the period of Beethoven in particular, while there are a few gems that one finds occasionally from the output of the lesser-known of Beethoven's contemporaries, for the most part their work (at least IMO) exposes how dependent they were on the influence of Haydn and Mozart and how unable they were to develop their own unique musical footprint and extricate themselves from the influence of music that dated from the mid to end of the 1700s even as they moved well into the 1800s.

On the other hand, Beethoven was already moving on even with his earliest works. His almost immediate ability to compose music with highly original thematic and melodic material (and its development) and to do that repeatedly with even his earliest sonatas and concertos must have been particularly frustrating for his 'competitors'. Of course, one can hear some influence of Mozart (and perhaps Haydn) in Beethoven's earlier works, but it is far more subtle than in so many works of his contemporaries.

Which brings me to Joseph Wolfl (or Woelfl) 1773-1812. He is known as having been a competitor of Beethoven and as having had a piano duel with Beethoven which by most (but not all) accounts Beethoven won. They were both considered among the top pianists of their day. However, there is evidence that both men respected each other.

On doing a forum search Wolfl appears to have been mentioned only occasionally here. I've recently listened in depth to most of his works available on Youtube. A number of them are reasonably substantial works, but few would rise to the level of either Mozart or Beethoven. Wolfl died awfully young (age 39) so we'll never know what he might have composed in later years.

There are two works by Wolfl that I have found particularly moving. The first is the Adagio from the C-minor Piano Sonata Op.25. In the opening few minutes one can hear the distinct influence of both Bach and Mozart, but mixed in, especially towards the middle to end, is a distinct influence of Beethoven particularly in the beautiful development of the main theme at 3:55:






The second work that stands out for me is the relatively short Andante from the G major Piano Concerto 4 (Calm). It is not a particularly complex work. In fact, it is rather simple, but in a simply beautiful way. I think this work compares well with any of the Adagios/Andantes from the middle period (ie. circa #15-19) of Mozart's Piano Concertos:






I would be interested in hearing about (or hearing) any other works of Wolfl's or any other Beethoven contemporary that particularly stand out to others.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Agree about Wolfl's music, it's quite good. But as you say, not of the interest of music Beethoven was writing in the same period. I have three Wolfl discs: Piano sonatas, piano concertos, and symphonies.

BTW, here is an eyewitness account of the Beethoven-Wolfl piano duel.
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...After we have featured the ladies first, as we should, let us discuss the gentlemen. Among these, Beethoven and Wölfll create the most excitement. Opinions as to the advantages of the one over the other are divided here. However, it appears as if the larger party is tending towards the latter. I want to try to point out the characteristics of both, without taking part in the ensuing argument.

Beethoven' s play is exceedingly brilliant, but less delicate and at times somewhat unclear. He shows himself to best advantage in free improvisation. And here the lightness and at the same time firmness in the sequence of his ideas is really quite extraordinary. B. instantly varies every theme, and not only in its figures. Since the death of Mozart who will always remain the non plus ultra in this, I have never found this kind of pleasure to the degree with which B. provides it. In this, Wölffl is inferior to him. 

However, Wölffl has at his disposal a thorough musical learnedness and true dignity in composition. He performs movements that appear nearly impossible to execute with a lightness, precision, and distinctness that is truly amazing. Of course, the large structure of his hands is an advantage in this. His performance is purposeful everywhere, pleasing and caressing in the adagios and equally far from the extremes of sparseness and overcrowding—this is why one can not only admire him but also enjoy him. That Wölffl's unassuming and pleasing behavior gains over Beethoven with his sometimes haughty manner is very natural...


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

This is a topic of great interest to me as well. It turns out plenty of composers(apart from Schubert) were writing work at a level beyond mere craft(in some cases significantly so) were contemporaneous to Beethoven. I had not heard of Wolfl and will be back in this thread later to give it my full attention. But there are some names as little known as his, as well as some better known names like Hummel, Ries, Field,and Kuhlau that are quite worthy. To be more specific, these are composers who in the case of three of them had voices very much distinct from Beethoven's and in the case of one of them(Ries), built a distinct voice out of Beethoven's example.

Beethoven's was a very inexhaustible creative spirit, exploring many directions and refining some well travelled ones too. But he was far from the only one of his era who understood how to explore and refine. There are probably dozens of names from that fertile period of music who would add a richness to our picture of the time if only we had the patience to sift through with an open mind.

I'm listening to the 4th piano concerto of this Wolfl and hear much harmonic subtlety of a sort of leisurely pace. Definitely distinct from other things I've heard, so I believe this is a find.

I always have the hardest time thinking of the name of this composer and this could be part of what keeps him in obscurity, but I'm thinking of the guy whose symphony premiered alongside Beethoven's 3rd and seems to have gotten better reviews initially. After some half witted googling, I remember his name and it's not that hard to remember: *Anton Eberl*. This is his E flat Symphony which premiered alongside Beethoven's potboiler masterpiece(Eroica is great yes, and can take it):





Anton Eberl is a Mozart throwback in a lot of ways. But Mozart was in some respects more advanced than Beethoven and many composers down the line, just with a more limited harmonic scope in some ways. Eberl has much less of Mozart's subtlety, but for me there is still something to enjoy and marvel at in the construction of his work. And on the surface his music can really fool people into thinking it's Mozart.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Re KenOC on the piano duel:

I seem to recall having read a very similar comparison being drawn by a contemporary critic with Beethoven and Hummel. Seems like Hummel and Wolfl are more easily lumped together in this type of thing, while the same things are always being said about Beethoven.

In terms of contemporary or even somewhat later piano playing as reported from the times, the most interesting sounding to me apart from Beethoven is *John Field*. Field was much less dynamic as a composer than Beethoven, but he sounds to me almost like a jazz man of the times with an effortless style that just makes everybody who heard him feel good. You might google a bit to see if you can find something that confirms what I am talking about.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Interesting Hummel facts in this Wiki snippet:

"At about this time, young Ludwig van Beethoven arrived in Vienna and also took lessons from Haydn and Albrechtsberger, thus becoming a fellow student and a friend. Beethoven's arrival was said to have nearly destroyed Hummel's self-confidence, though he recovered without much harm. The two men's friendship was marked by ups and downs, but developed into reconciliation and mutual respect. Hummel visited Beethoven in Vienna on several occasions with his wife Elisabeth and pupil Ferdinand Hiller. At Beethoven's wish, Hummel improvised at the great man's memorial concert. It was at this event that he made friends with Franz Schubert, who dedicated his last three piano sonatas to Hummel. However, since both composers had died by the time of the sonatas' first publication, the publishers changed the dedication to Robert Schumann, who was still active at the time."


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

clavichorder said:


> This is a topic of great interest to me as well. It turns out plenty of composers(apart from Schubert) were writing work at a level beyond mere craft(in some cases significantly so) were contemporaneous to Beethoven. I had not heard of Wolfl and will be back in this thread later to give it my full attention. But there are some names as little known as his, as well as some better known names like Hummel, Ries, Field,and Kuhlau that are quite worthy. To be more specific, these are composers who in the case of three of them had voices very much distinct from Beethoven's and in the case of one of them(Ries), built a distinct voice out of Beethoven's example.


I agree with you about Hummel, Ries, Field and Kuhlau. In fact, when I referred to 'lesser-known contemporaries of Beethoven', in my mind, I wasn't including those composers, particularly Hummel and Field. The Piano Concertos of both Hummel and Field are highly original and, like the earlier works of Beethoven, sound as if they emanate from a later period than the latter 18th century.


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

Dussek. 







Far from the only recording of his music available
Cherubini







Again, far from the only recording of his music. In fact, there are at least two other recordings of these quartets. But the quartets are probably the most obviously "Beethovenian" of his works.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Wolfl was an excellent composer and we should be studying and performing more of his music.

Ferdinand Ries too, he was Beethoven's student.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

DaveM said:


> I've often thought that it must have been somewhat intimidating to have been a contemporary of Beethoven. For some years, I collected vinyl records and CDs of music from the more obscure composers (particularly concertos) dating from the late 18th century to the latter 19th, but the vast access to material from that period on Youtube allows one to do that as never before.
> 
> Speaking of the period of Beethoven in particular, while there are a few gems that one finds occasionally from the output of the lesser-known of Beethoven's contemporaries, for the most part their work (at least IMO) exposes how dependent they were on the influence of Haydn and Mozart and how unable they were to develop their own unique musical footprint and extricate themselves from the influence of music that dated from the mid to end of the 1700s even as they moved well into the 1800s.


I wonder how much of this is actually down to the distorting effects of historical hindsight.

Of all the music composed during Beethoven's lifetime, what remains popular essentially comes from four people: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert. (There obviously are some exceptions, but a look at my polls revealed that those 4 composed 147 of the 150 most popular works from that period). I think it's reasonable to say that they overshadow their contemporaries in our minds much more than they did in their own lifetimes.

Probably Beethoven's contemporaries found it no harder than, say, Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich in the era of the Beatles.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> I wonder how much of this is actually down to the distorting effects of historical hindsight.
> 
> Of all the music composed during Beethoven's lifetime, what remains popular essentially comes from four people: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert. (There obviously are some exceptions, but a look at my polls revealed that those 4 composed 147 of the 150 most popular works from that period). I think it's reasonable to say that they overshadow their contemporaries in our minds much more than they did in their own lifetimes.


I'm sure there's truth to that. However, there are stories of how intimidating Beethoven and his music could be to some of his contemporaries. For instance, it is said that when Beethoven arrived in Vienna, Johann Nepomuk Hummel suffered a period of a lack of self-confidence which he apparently recovered from.

Still, there's no doubt that the dynamic of a reputation during a composer's life was likely different than as perceived decades later. Joachim Raff was considered to be in the same league as Mendelssohn, Schumann and Brahms during his lifetime, but decades later he was considered but a footnote compared to them.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Nereffid said:


> I wonder how much of this is actually down to the distorting effects of historical hindsight.
> 
> Of all the music composed during Beethoven's lifetime, what remains popular essentially comes from four people: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, and Schubert. (There obviously are some exceptions, but a look at my polls revealed that those 4 composed 147 of the 150 most popular works from that period). I think it's reasonable to say that they overshadow their contemporaries in our minds much more than they did in their own lifetimes.
> 
> Probably Beethoven's contemporaries found it no harder than, say, Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich in the era of the Beatles.


Rossini was contemporary with Beethoven and he is one of the most popular opera composers ever.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Rossini was contemporary with Beethoven and he is one of the most popular opera composers ever.


Yes, and Beethoven noticed. He didn't seem too happy about it!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Rossini was contemporary with Beethoven and he is one of the most popular opera composers ever.


Yes, and it was also a major oversight on our parts to forget Weber, who along with Rossini, is arguably approaching significance alongside these monumental greats, Beethoven and Schubert.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> Yes, and it was also a major oversight on our parts to forget Weber, who along with Rossini, is arguably approaching significance alongside these monumental greats, Beethoven and Schubert.


If we want to make a list, there's Mehul with four fine symphonies and some overtures, Cherubini with his well-known Requiem Masses and his string quartets...let's not forget Kid Arriaga...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I remember listening to the four symphonies of Étienne Méhul (1763-1817) a long time ago and thinking they definitely had something about them - composed between 1808 and 1810 while his operatic career was in decline, they had more substance than, say, von Weber's two from about the same time (although, to be fair, von Weber was still relatively young and inexperienced when he wrote his). 

I suppose as a Frenchman Méhul wasn't so much a rival to Beethoven as they never moved in the same circles, especially as Méhul specialised in theatre music and was also on friendly terms with Napoleon pretty much until the latter's final fall.


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## gprengel (Dec 21, 2015)

Besides Schubert among Beethoven's contempories one absolutly stands out for me - Ferdinand Ries who has already been mentioned. His piano concertos are just wonderful, among his bests are:











Gerd


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

There's also Leopold Kozeluch, who was talented enough that a number of compositions of his were thought by musicologists to be by Beethoven himself for many years until Kozeluch was revealed as the true author in the 1950s and 1960s. Clearly, not a schlub.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, Kozeluch was a very capable composer. I have been listening to some of his piano sonatas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kozeluch was 20 years or so older than Beethoven. Beethoven know him but seems to have disliked him. On the death of Mozart, Kozeluch is supposed to have said, "Of course it's too bad about such a great genius, but it's good for us that he's dead. Because if he had lived longer, really the world would not have given a single piece of bread for our compositions."


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