# Michael Haydn Requiem



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I've just discovered this incredible work, and I'm surprised it hasn't been recorded more.

Honestly, if historians suddenly discovered that Mozart actually lived to 1793, and that he wrote another Requiem in 1792, and this was it, I would have believed it.

Just between last night and this morning I've been listening to this recording on Youtube: http://www.amazon.com/Michael-Haydn...TF8&colid=21FDTLOMOUYEX&coliid=I2RP1P9CA04C0O

I will be purchasing this recording as soon as I verify that I can afford it (I've spent over $200 this month on music CDs/DVDs).

Here is the first part on Youtube:


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

You see? Mozart's OVERRATED.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> You see? Mozart's OVERRATED.


I've been advised not to bother replying to the things you post, but I can't help myself.

1. I do not have so much faith in my own musical education that I presume that whenever I perceive things to be of equivalence, that that means they actually are. I trust Herbert von Karajan, Riccardo Muti, Simon Rattle et al. to know whether this Requiem is actually on par with Mozart's masterworks, because they understand music much deeper than I do, and have studied the scores in depth.

2. If M. Haydn's Requiem is as masterful a work as some of Mozart's greatest, it still makes sense that Mozart is much more famous, because Mozart mastered every genre, and output a ridiculous amount of music.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It's been on my "to listen to" pile for a while - I'll move it up a notch.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

It really does also have many surface similarities to Mozart's requiem. Many, unmistakeable similarities. The rhythm of the "Quam olim abraham" (and the fact that it's a fugue)... the texture/harmonies at the very beginning.... there are others that I can't recall right now. I've only heard it twice so far.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

macgeek2005 said:


> I've been advised not to bother replying to the things you post, but I can't help myself.
> 
> 1. I do not have so much faith in my own musical education that I presume that whenever I perceive things to be of equivalence, that that means they actually are. I trust Herbert von Karajan, Riccardo Muti, Simon Rattle et al. to know whether this Requiem is actually on par with Mozart's masterworks, because they understand music much deeper than I do, and have studied the scores in depth.
> 
> 2. If M. Haydn's Requiem is as masterful a work as some of Mozart's greatest, it still makes sense that Mozart is much more famous, because Mozart mastered every genre, and output a ridiculous amount of music.


Ha, it was just a light-hearted comment about how Mozart's requiem is so much more famous than most others. Yes I agree with the stuff you said there and I'm surprised you took my comment so seriously. I like both the Mozart and the M. Haydn requiems and I just think that Mozart's music overshadows so much other music composed in the second half of the 18th century.

By the way, who advised you not to reply to my posts?


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ha, it was just a light-hearted comment about how Mozart's requiem is so much more famous than most others. Yes I agree with the stuff you said there and I'm surprised you took my comment so seriously. I like both the Mozart and the M. Haydn requiems and I just think that Mozart's music overshadows so much other music composed in the second half of the 18th century.
> 
> By the way, who advised you not to reply to my posts?


I don't remember, it was in another thread. It wasn't a private message or anything.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks for the post - I just ordered the recording of the MHaydn, and also the Zelenka Requiem - Zelenka was recently praised by a number of TC members and I've never heard a note.

I listened to the Youtube clip of the Introitus of the Requiem - wonderful choral writing (!) and the 'walking bass', surprising at first, worked to propel the text with an air of the inexorable nature of the event itself.



macgeek2005 said:


> I've just discovered this incredible work, and I'm surprised it hasn't been recorded more.
> 
> Honestly, if historians suddenly discovered that Mozart actually lived to 1793, and that he wrote another Requiem in 1792, and this was it, I would have believed it.
> 
> ...


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

I'm listening to it right now. I can just say it seems awesomely well written. And quite deep. 

I like your conception of the role of the bass line in the Introitus, NightHawk.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

Mozart's requiem is actually modeled on Haydn's C minor requiem. I've been listening to his much lesser known and incomplete B-flat major requiem a lot recently, and I have to say I personally prefer it to the earlier C minor one. It's very interesting. I'm a little gutted that there's very little information available on it.

You can listen to fragments of it using the player on this page. I recommend the Dies Irae and the Confutatis: http://www.carus-verlag.com/index.php3?selSprache=1&BLink=KKArtikel&ArtNummer=8335300


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I would be sceptical that M haydn's requiem is anywhere near M work. I agree with the previous comment along the lines that karjan et al would have paid it some attention if it was so worthy. However - I know that M esteemed M haydn and I do look forward to listening to it. I heard some of his horn concertos - which did not match M peerless works - but neverthelss were very impressive.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

macgeek2005 said:


> Honestly, if historians suddenly discovered that Mozart actually lived to 1793, and that he wrote another Requiem in 1792, and this was it, I would have believed it.


Then you don't know Mozart.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I received the M. Haydn Requiem in the mail yesterday and have listened to the entire thing SIX times since importing it into my iTunes yesterday afternoon. It is a masterpiece. It is no lesser than the Mozart in any way! And I know Mozart very, very well.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

macgeek2005 said:


> I received the M. Haydn Requiem in the mail yesterday and have listened to the entire thing SIX times since importing it into my iTunes yesterday afternoon. It is a masterpiece. It is no lesser than the Mozart in any way! And I know Mozart very, very well.


I wonder why it is not extensively recorded. I will listen today on youtube.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

On youtube a lot of people are saying it is as good as k626 - then again - on youtube loads of people say that salieri is better than M


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

stomanek said:


> On youtube a lot of people are saying it is as good as k626 - then again - on youtube loads of people say that salieri is better than M


Salieri is better than M


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## Very Senior Member (Jul 16, 2009)

The two following threads may be of interest.

http://www.talkclassical.com/6619-top-5-requiems.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/14878-requiem-masses.html

I think you will find reference to Michael Haydn's Requiem if you plod through, including favourite recordings of this and other Masses.

Just another example of previous threads covering all the same ground.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Salieri is better than M


That's probably my favourite part from Amadeus -


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I just listened to this:






So the introitus and kyrie.
It is beautiful music and I am glad to be aquainted with it. I can certainly hear the influence of this work on Mozart.
However - it is not, for me - on the same level on artistic invention. I would say it is closer to the level of Pergolesi Stabat Mater - which I do like a lot and it is no insult for me to say that. Mozart is known for taking pebbles and coverting them into diamonds and that is the case with Haydn's fine mass.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

There is a moment toward the end of the Sequenz that stood out to me even before I was very familiar with the piece, and I now recognize it as one of the most haunting and beautiful moments in the whole work.

It is the words "Judicandus homo reus" in the Lacrimosa. The music he sets those words to....... my god.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm still obsessed with this piece. I've now listened to the entire thing about 37 times since I purchased it in July.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

macgeek2005 said:


> Honestly, if historians suddenly discovered that Mozart actually lived to 1793, and that he wrote another Requiem in 1792, and this was it, I would have believed it.


This work was written in 1771. I think belongs more in the 1770s in style; the Gregorian melody of the opening movement ("Te decet") quotes J.A. Hasse's Requiem in C, which was written 8 years earlier. The arias also have a certain "Hassean" post-Baroque quality about them. An exceptional work for its time, but Mozart's by comparison sounds more "contemporary" to the late Classical period, like Die Zauberflote, for example.

I always think that Michael's influence on Mozart (his younger colleague and friend), Weber (his pupil), Schubert (his admirer) is more important and significant than his brother Joseph's (whose influence on Mozart did not go beyond some rhythmically rustic expressions in string ensemble music.) in terms of dramatic/expressive chromaticism. 
4:28 (written in 1773) , 3:00 , 1:37 , 1:24 , 1:17 (written in 1772) , 5:49 (written in 1768)
{Never found Joseph's use of chromaticism really "striking" tbh btw; seems to be just "playing around notes for notes' sake" on the "surface" level: 23:55 , 12:20. It might be why his music can sometimes be seen as "narrow" in terms of emotional scope. I'm even inclined to think his Op.20 should classify as "divertimentos", but this is a topic for another thread.}

The way to set the text "Lacrimosa dies illa" for psychological effect in the final minutes of the Dies irae (11:40~13:40); I believe this even goes beyond his contemporary Gluck's achievements in operatic music. Also look at sections like: 12:41 , 14:01 , 16:55, etc.

"In just two weeks Michael Haydn composed his work in December 1771, on the occasion of the death of his employer, Prince Bishop Sigismund Count Schrattenbach, who was beloved among the people and was a great patron of the arts. The work was written under the impression of personal tragedy: Haydn's only child, Aloisia Josepha, died in January 1771, before completing her first year of life."

The Michael Haydn requiem also influenced works of Mozart Mozart himself actually considered important such as K.339/iv (from the vespers, which Mozart himself held in high regard) and K.426 (which Mozart later transcribed for strings and added an introductory adagio, and would profoundly affect Beethoven). For instance, K.339/iv (with its subject) is unmistakably reminiscent of the Cum sanctis tuis from the Michael Haydn requiem. Both K.339/iv and K.426 deal with this motivic expression, found in the Michael Haydn:








K.426, I believe, just takes the chromatic expressivity to the maximum. (There are other works such as K.194, K.243, K.257, etc where Mozart takes ideas from the Michael Haydn requiem, but I'll just focus on K.339, K.426 in this post)

Btw, this is how I see the formal layout:
*Requiem in C Minor, MH 155 (1771)*
"trumpet signal" & requiem 1st theme: [ 0:20 ]
requiem 2nd theme: [ 3:20 ~ 3:45 ]
lacrimosa theme: [ 11:40 ~ 11:48 ]
chromatic fourth theme (climbing from D to G in the bassline): [ 12:40 ~ 12:50 ]
hosanna theme (lacrimosa theme transformed/recapitulated): [ 24:21 ~ 24:29 ]
"trumpet signal": [ 26:48 , 27:56 ]
chromatic fourth theme recapitulated (climbing from G to C in the soprano solo): [ 28:40 ~ 28:50 ]
cum sanctis tuis fugue: [ 29:17 ~ 31:16 ]
requiem 2nd theme recapitulated: [ 31:22 ~ 31:50 ]
requiem 1st theme recapitulated: [ 31:58 ~ 32:30 ]
cum sanctis tuis fugue recapitulated: [ 32:38 ~ 34:30 ]


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