# Making classical music attractive CAN IT BE DONE?



## Haydnn

I was reading an article in an old BBC music (classical) magazine. The question asked and discussion ensuing was how to make classical music attractive to a wider audience. I’m interested in your views. I still remember how I got hooked to classical and I used the method to get other people to like it. What your suggestion?


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## Haydnn

By the way, after reading much biography of many composers....Haydn believed he had the answer!


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## dsphipps100

One thing is that classical radio stations need to quit doing such a crappy job of programming. 90% of what they play is boring (like constant 17th-18th Century chamber music or every piece of classical guitar solo music ever written), and then on the rare occasion when they do play something decent, they pick a crappy performance of it. Anybody basing their opinion of classical music on what they hear from the radio would be only very logical in deciding that it's to be avoided at all costs.


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## Sloe

dsphipps100 said:


> One thing is that classical radio stations need to quit doing such a crappy job of programming. 90% of what they play is boring (like constant 17th-18th Century chamber music or every piece of classical guitar solo music ever written), and then on the rare occasion when they do play something decent, they pick a crappy performance of it. Anybody basing their opinion of classical music on what they hear from the radio would be only very logical in deciding that it's to be avoided at all costs.


That depends on what radio station you listen to and what time you listen to radio.
That they also play music that you or me don´t like is understandable they have to play for those with other tastes. There is also nothing wrong with being exposed to music one would not start to listening to spontaneous. If it wasn´t for radio I would not have listened through baroque operas. Currently I am listening to Gurrelieder by Arnold Schönberg not a work I would listen to otherwise. Before that they played Daniel Börtz´s third string quartet a nice work that I would not have heard otherwise. I can guess that those who likes Xenakis or Stockhausen are a bit disappointed but I don´t like those composers anyway on the other hand I hear music by Steve Reich who I find equally bizarre in a bad way occasionally on radio.


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## njk345

For a while now (as a teenager myself, engrossed in the whole world of pop music, etc.), I've gotten the sense that the biggest obstacle is getting people to see how the music directly applies to or at all touches upon issues and concepts that come up in their own lives. I'm guessing this is mainly due to the lack of clear spoken word (in a language the listener understands - ie. not latin, german, etc.) and quick melodic and thematic shifts you get in modern music- geared more toward the impatient listener, looking for a quick, 4 minute fix to address a particular emotion than to the classical listener, with more time on their hands and a more abstract perspective on the music's material. But then again, when classical music does become intertwined in popular culture (ride of the valkyries, parts of beethoven's 5th or 9th, the 1812 overture, etc. come to mind), this obstacle appears to be lifted, allowing the music to gain a certain "attractiveness." So as far as I'm concerned, if you can overcome the aspect of historical distance and find a way to make classical music more relatable to modern life (as I'm sure has been the relationship many of us classical fans have found, if not through a bit of patience and open-mindedness), you can get more people to welcome it into their lives.


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## Sloe

njk345 said:


> For a while now (as a teenager myself, engrossed in the whole world of pop music, etc.), I've gotten the sense that the biggest obstacle is getting people to see how the music directly applies to or at all touches upon issues and concepts that come up in their own lives. I'm guessing this is mainly due to the lack of clear spoken word (in a language the listener understands - ie. not latin, german, etc.) and quick melodic and thematic shifts you get in modern music- geared more toward the impatient listener, looking for a quick, 4 minute fix to address a particular emotion than to the classical listener, with more time on their hands and a more abstract perspective on the music's material. But then again, when classical music does become intertwined in popular culture (ride of the valkyries, parts of beethoven's 5th or 9th, the 1812 overture, etc. come to mind), this obstacle appears to be lifted, allowing the music to gain a certain "attractiveness." So as far as I'm concerned, if you can overcome the aspect of historical distance and find a way to make classical music more relatable to modern life (as I'm sure has been the relationship many of us classical fans have found, if not through a bit of patience and open-mindedness), you can get more people to welcome it into their lives.


German is the second most spoken language in Europe and it is close enough to English for a person that knows English to understand German somewhat. On the other hand I have usually no idea what rap lyrics are about.


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## Baregrass

dsphipps100 said:


> One thing is that classical radio stations need to quit doing such a crappy job of programming. 90% of what they play is boring (like constant 17th-18th Century chamber music or every piece of classical guitar solo music ever written), and then on the rare occasion when they do play something decent, they pick a crappy performance of it. Anybody basing their opinion of classical music on what they hear from the radio would be only very logical in deciding that it's to be avoided at all costs.


You do have a point but I have to say that my PBS station plays a very good selection of classical music from the Renaissance all the way up to modern composers. It is the main reason I support them. I suspect one of the reasons that sometimes a substandard performance is played over the air is because license fees for some performances are quite high.


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## Guest

Haydnn said:


> The question asked and discussion ensuing was how to make classical music attractive to a wider audience.


Do you mean, "How do we present/offer/sell past music - LvB, WAM etc - to current audiences so more will listen?" Or, "How do we get modern composers to make their compositions more attractive?" (or both?)

Either way, I don't know.



Haydnn said:


> I still remember how I got hooked to classical and I used the method to get other people to like it.


So, how did you get hooked and how did you use that method?


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## JosefinaHW

Sloe said:


> German is the second most spoken language in Europe and it is close enough to English for a person that knows English to understand German somewhat. On the other hand I have usually no idea what rap lyrics are about.


The little I know horrifies me.


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## DavidA

Lang Lang is trying to make classical music attractive to more peopke - it s one of his goals - and predictably he is being savaged all the way by critics.


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## JosefinaHW

:Haydnn What was Haydn's idea?


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## JosefinaHW

Anne Sophie Mutter is trying via the Gold Lounge (It's called something similar). Dress down, club style decor, people can talk about the music between movements, ....


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## Pugg

It can be done, as long as we DON'T SCREAM


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## hpowders

This particular "problem" has been discussed for quite a long time.

The greatest of all verbal musical communicators, Leonard Bernstein, gave it his best shot with the "Young People's Concerts" way back almost 60 years ago. He barely moved the needle regarding new converts.


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## Elizabeth de Brito

Brilliant topic!

I would say one reason is Classical concerts are for the most part dull, boring and often seen to be accessible only for an elitist crowd of old, white, posh people. 

I invariably fall asleep at classical concerts, not because I don't enjoy the music but I'm sitting down, staring at the same spot for an hour. It does not stimulate my eyes at all. It's like lectures, I can't sit and listen to one person talking for an hour, I'll fall asleep.

I went to the Proms last year - standing in the Gallery and was so surprised at the difference in vibe up there. People had picnics out, were reading books through the performance, it was great and so different from most concerts where you're just sitting looking at the stage. It's this idea that we can only enjoy classical music in very rigid, rule controlled settings, much like the rest of society, but that's another topic for another time. We need to get rid of these pointless rules. I enjoyed that Proms concert more than any classical concert I'd been to before. I felt free to enjoy the music how I wanted to and so did everyone else up at the Gallery. During the performance I sometimes stood watching the orchestra and sometimes sat down, starting checking facts on my phone about the pieces, other people were reading and wandering around. We had paid our £5 and were all enjoying the music, we were all listening to the glory of Daphnis and Chloe, just not in those tight restrictive ways.

That's just one way to make classical music more accessible.


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## Aaconn

The biggest thing that can be done is bringing the music to the people. When there is close to a millennia of music ranging from Hildegard of Bingen to John Williams or John Cage, there is bound to be something people will listen to. There are some such as Andre Rieu who brings classical music (albeit the more popular pieces) to the people as not a stuffy concert but as a party where people can be seen dancing in the aisles. In the colleges and in the cities where there is more people walking around you have so much potential to spread classical music. Just sending a string quartet or brass quintet out where people meet such as a student union at a university or even a food court of a shopping mall and have them perform, people will listen and if lucky get them thinking. Advertising a string quartet concert on a billboard and sending out a string quartet to perform will get different results. The fact that they have not heard what it would sound like can be a major factor in what they think about the music.


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## Elizabeth de Brito

njk345 said:


> For a while now (as a teenager myself, engrossed in the whole world of pop music, etc.), I've gotten the sense that the biggest obstacle is getting people to see how the music directly applies to or at all touches upon issues and concepts that come up in their own lives. I'm guessing this is mainly due to the lack of clear spoken word (in a language the listener understands - ie. not latin, german, etc.) and quick melodic and thematic shifts you get in modern music- geared more toward the impatient listener, looking for a quick, 4 minute fix to address a particular emotion than to the classical listener, with more time on their hands and a more abstract perspective on the music's material. But then again, when classical music does become intertwined in popular culture (ride of the valkyries, parts of beethoven's 5th or 9th, the 1812 overture, etc. come to mind), this obstacle appears to be lifted, allowing the music to gain a certain "attractiveness." So as far as I'm concerned, if you can overcome the aspect of historical distance and find a way to make classical music more relatable to modern life (as I'm sure has been the relationship many of us classical fans have found, if not through a bit of patience and open-mindedness), you can get more people to welcome it into their lives.


I agree with some of what you say. Certainly expecting the majority of people to sit through an entire 30 minute concerto or 45 minute symphony is unrealistic.

Who here has seen Disney's Fantasia and Fantasia 2000? I love them. Combining classical music and animated stories is brilliant! It's a way to connect with the music being played. I'm a very visual person and I often catch on to music I've heard in films because the music is emphasising the action on screen. Actually Disney films do that very well.

Definitely making classical music more interactive and livening up concerts is a start.


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## Haydnn

I was reading....some time ago....that Haydn used to make it to Vienna once in a while. When he did, often was seen with Mozart. They were often drunk and played music all night. What do you suppose they were playing. They didn't call their music classical in those days. So what were they playing? These two composers had the same problem with their audience; and yet they managed to make the people happy with their compositions.


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## violadude

I think the biggest obstacle classical music has to overcome to become more popular is one of identity. Most people simply don't listen to music just for the music, but to be a part of an identity or a "scene". Classical music obviously has its community, but not really a "scene" or "identity". And I'm not sure I would want it any other way to be honest. The difficult thing is to get people to enjoy music just for the music and not for what kind of "identity" it's selling (or not selling).


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## Baregrass

njk345 said:


> But then again, when classical music does become intertwined in popular culture (ride of the valkyries, parts of beethoven's 5th or 9th, the 1812 overture, etc. come to mind), this obstacle appears to be lifted, allowing the music to gain a certain "attractiveness." So as far as I'm concerned, if you can overcome the aspect of historical distance and find a way to make classical music more relatable to modern life (as I'm sure has been the relationship many of us classical fans have found, if not through a bit of patience and open-mindedness), you can get more people to welcome it into their lives.


Timely and astute observation. I still remember a writer of a Vivaldi biography making the statement about his operas that they were full of beautiful music but would generally not be accepted by the public because they were truly of another time and place that was long gone. The same can not be said of his music as its popularity is still attested to by sales of new recordings. What many of us moderns don't either realize or think of, is that much secular Renaissance and Baroque music was meant to be danced to, thereby involving the audience the same way popular music does today. Getting the audience involved is key to success.


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## Strange Magic

One of the most successful marriages of classical music with popular culture was the 1953 Broadway and 1955 Hollywood productions of the musical _Kismet_, with all but a small fraction of its music extracted very expertly from Borodin. I remember that everyone was singing Stranger in Paradise; Baubles, Bangles and Beads, and This is My Beloved. It remains today a wonderful creation, and I listen to the recording of the Broadway production with Alfred Drake, Doretta Morrow, and Richard Kiley quite often. A masterpiece like _Kismet_ is an excellent entre for some people anyway into classical music. I see a scenario wherein somebody lends the CD to somebody, or maybe listens to it with them, then after says (assuming that their friend or relative likes the music), "By the way, all that wonderful music is classical music, by the Russian composer Alexander Borodin, etc., etc...... Maybe you might like to hear some of where it came from."


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## JosefinaHW

Haydnn said:


> I was reading....some time ago....that Haydn used to make it to Vienna once in a while. When he did, often was seen with Mozart. They were often drunk and played music all night. What do you suppose they were playing. They didn't call their music classical in those days. So what were they playing? These two composers had the same problem with their audience; and yet they managed to make the people happy with their compositions.


It's my understanding that Bach performed with his students from the Collegium at Zimmermann's Coffee House/Bar/ I don't remember what the word was. Zimmermann charged an admission fee and people loved to come and watch and listen! I really wish more cafes would have folks playing quartets or solo pieces.


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## Zhdanov

Haydnn said:


> how to make classical music attractive to a wider audience.


what for?......


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## TxllxT

Vienna ball








Prague ball

In Vienna and Prague they know how to keep in touch with the public. Keep it special, dress code required & music for the millions (Schöne blauen Donau etc.).


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## R3PL4Y

I think the reason that so many people are pushed away from classical music is mostly because of their stereotypes of it. I had many of these same stereotypes before I began listening to it, until I played Mars from the Planets in my sophomore year of high school. Honestly, the entire Planets suite is a great way to get into classical music, as it develops more quickly than many other pieces and is easier for those not used to classical music to listen to. I think that the way to make classical music attractive is not to make concerts more casual (though I am not against this) but rather to change the way that it is perceived.


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## Haydnn

JosefinaHW said:


> :Haydnn What was Haydn's idea?


I was reading where late in life he explained that he was especially concerned that the listener would loose interest. He was concerned that the listener would not remember themes and therefore not connect the variations that would come after. He said to the interviewer that he always made sure it never lost its simplicity. I think he was right....the general public has a real bad impression of our music. Do you think it would be a good idea not to lump all the classical music into the classical music genre?


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## Haydnn

Try this: Listen to the "batman" music score; without the movie. It is still good.........but it has no context. A lot of the music that is called classical is inflicted on the public and sounds like noon hour traffic. That's often because there is no context. When you listen to the big dead guys there often is context. They give you the themes, variations, etc... you anticipate what comes next and you are gratified to find it or pleasantly surprised not to find it. That's music..... what audiences are subjected to is often way too much fluff.


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## starthrower

I don't know if this kind of thing still gets done? But when I was a little kid, members of my city's symphony orchestra came to my elementary school with their instruments to talk to the kids and play a bit. I remember being very interested in this, and I found it quite inspiring as a kid with an interest in music.

And I completely agree about the boring content on classical radio. Especially in the morning and daytime hours. With all of the stimulating and exciting music in the world, they program the most insipid, polite, and mind numbingly boring 250 year old music.

And DavidA is right about Lang Lang. These snobby critics should shut up already. Classical music needs enthusiastic young stars to promote the music.


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## Baregrass

Zhdanov said:


> what for?......


China seems to be answering the question:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/china-is-classical-musics-new-frontier/article14881218/


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## hpowders

OP: This has been tried in every conceivable way, without success.

You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink!


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## Morimur

Society is engineered for immediate gratification. Classical music demands too much time and effort from the modern listener — they are incongruent.


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## KenOC

Morimur said:


> Society is engineered for immediate gratification. Classical music demands too much time and effort from the modern listener - they are incongruent.


Yes indeed. Somebody told me that Beethoven's 7th Symphony was quite exciting, so I put it on today. Just some slow stuff. It went on for several seconds, so I switched it off. You call _that _exciting???


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## R3PL4Y

Adding to the idea that modern listeners are not used to the time that classical music expands over, I think many modern audiences are not used to listening to classical music for other reasons. The most prominent of these is the denser textures that are prevalent in classical music over almost any other genre of music. Classical music is in many cases less obviously melodic than popular music. There are some exceptions, such as pieces like Scheherazade, but listening to any kind of polyphonic piece is a different experience than listening to the popular music that so many people are used to.


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## Classical Performances

It's my impression that the tactics employed by some orchestras like the the Seattle Symphony will not work. Although, a clever marketing strategy, having Sir Mix-a-lot singing "baby got back" will not permanently win over any young or older people. I doubt if it would even work temporarily. I think the best way to share this music with others is to personally burn a few carefully picked pieces to a CD and give it to them. Also, next time you go to the opera or orchestra, invite them to come along. I didn't realize how much I liked opera until I actually attended my first one - "Carmen".


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## violadude

Zhdanov said:


> what for?......


$$$...........................


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## Guest

Morimur said:


> Society is engineered for immediate gratification.


This is, of course, only an expression of a jaded opinion about society's failings. Actually, "society" could not survive without deferred gratification.


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## KenOC

The enjoyment of old music seems to be an exception in musical history. In most times, people want the new and have little interest in the old. And "new" music in what we consider the "classical" field seems to have little appeal apart from a few enthusiasts.


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## mstar

nevermind! 15 characters


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## guitarspace81

Especially most of the young people don't seem to appreciate classical music these days. Very sad.


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## Meyerbeer Smith

Quite simple.

Focus on composers who are exciting, entertaining and colourful.

Wagner, Beethoven, Berlioz, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky, Borodin.

A moratorium on Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi, all chamber music, and all Germans except Wagner and Beethoven.


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## Pugg

SimonTemplar said:


> Quite simple.
> 
> Focus on composers who are exciting, entertaining and colourful.
> 
> Wagner, Beethoven, Berlioz, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky, Borodin.
> 
> A moratorium on Mozart, Bach, Vivaldi, all chamber music, and all Germans except Wagner and Beethoven.


That smells towards censorship.


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## Guest

From what I read, young people and children are open to hearing music, full stop. What puts them off is when adults start filling their heads up with their own prejudices and effectively close the young person's mind down.

e.g. -
"One of its first projects introduced a programme of Ravel and early 20th-century visionary and noise-fiend Edgard Varèse to groups of schoolchildren. For many, Ravel's music is sensual, beguiling, "easy", whereas Varèse's sirens, percussion and atavistic modernism make his music beyond the pale, dissonant, and "difficult". What happened was just the reverse: the kids loved Varèse and couldn't get on with Ravel."

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/apr/26/five-myths-contemporary-classical-music


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## Meyerbeer Smith

Pugg said:


> That smells towards censorship.


Seriously, though, I think there's a better chance of converting people to classical music with Romantic and orchestral music rather than Classical, Baroque or earlier. Night on the Bald Mountain, Scheherazade, Alexander Nevsky, Ivan Grozny, the Dance of the Knights, The Planets (esp Mars: Bringer of War), the Bolero, Marche slave, 1812 Overture, Capriccio espagnol, Russian Easter Overture, bits of Damnation de Faust, Carnaval romain, Corsaire, Carmina Burana, and key moments from Beethoven and Waggers - that'd soon show people classical music wasn't boring!


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## R3PL4Y

SimonTemplar said:


> Seriously, though, I think there's a better chance of converting people to classical music with Romantic and orchestral music rather than Classical, Baroque or earlier. Night on the Bald Mountain, Scheherazade, Alexander Nevsky, Ivan Grozny, the Dance of the Knights, The Planets (esp Mars: Bringer of War), the Bolero, Marche slave, 1812 Overture, Capriccio espagnol, Russian Easter Overture, bits of Damnation de Faust, Carnaval romain, Corsaire, Carmina Burana, and key moments from Beethoven and Waggers - that'd soon show people classical music wasn't boring!


This is important. Baroque and classical era things tend to just confirm people's ideas about classical music rather than see that it can be fun and compelling. Another thing I think happens is that these are pieces that many veterans of classical music have heard hundreds of times, and they try to push there obscure tastes on newcomers to classical music.


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## GreenMamba

R3PL4Y said:


> This is important. Baroque and classical era things tend to just confirm people's ideas about classical music rather than see that it can be fun and compelling. Another thing I think happens is that these are pieces that many veterans of classical music have heard hundreds of times, and they try to push there obscure tastes on newcomers to classical music.


Who says Baroque and Classical can't be fun and compelling?

The truth is, you never know what people will like.


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## EdwardBast

Education and exposure, how else!; By people who have enough comprehension of what it is about and what it has to offer. This includes major ensembles doing outreach work coordinated with school music programs—with the prerequisite that schools actually have and fund meaningful music programs. Ideally, children would be prepared in-class before such outreach visits with whatever they might need to profit from the experience. The opportunity to play in ensembles, school bands, orchestras and choruses should be part of it as well. In New York City there are weeks in which enormous crowds of elementary school students go on field trips to hear the Philharmonic play.


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