# New to Opera Forum



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Recently Woodduck asked me to consider the TC Opera Forum, which I've been avoiding in favor of areas of music that I know better. Nevertheless, a thread title about opera being "largely about nostalgia" has sprung me into action. Not in order to argue the point there, but because to me opera is a vast and only very partially charted field. It is more than classical music, but also essential to classical music since the 17th century. I would like to help show that opera is both interesting historically and has much potential nowadays.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Roger Knox said:


> Recently Wooduck asked me to consider the TC Opera Forum, which I've been avoiding in favor of areas of music that I know better. Nevertheless, a thread title about opera being "largely about nostalgia" has sprung me into action. Not in order to argue the point there, but because to me opera is a vast and only very partially charted field. It is more than classical music, but also essential to classical music since the 17th century. I would like to help show that opera is both interesting historically and has much potential nowadays.


I started that Nostalgia thread and it has gotten good response from people who normally don't post. You can learn a lot by reading what people say in the contest threads I post. Woodduck is so knowledgeable but so are many others. I hope we hear more from you and don't be afraid to ask questions.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I started that Nostalgia thread and it has gotten good response from people who normally don't post. You can learn a lot by reading what people say in the contest threads I post. Woodduck is so knowledgeable but so are many others. I hope we hear more from you and don't be afraid to ask questions.


Thank you Seattleoperafan. I'm impressed and humbled by the discussions of singers, roles, recordings, performances, and history on the Opera forum. There are many knowledgeable and well-expressed posts. For now I am here mainly to learn, but I should maybe clarify that I have a good basic knowledge of opera and hope to contribute eventually.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

On the Orchestra Forum there's a thread I'm working on called "Suite Spot: The Nineteenth-Century Orchestral Suite." It starts with the earliest 19th-century orchestral suite by Franz Lachner (1861) and is planned to go up to the year 1914. There are several types of orchestral suite, one of which is the _extracted suite_ that comes from an opera, ballet, or incidental music to a play. So far the extracted suites discussed include the two _Arlésienne Suites_ and two _Carmen Suites_ from Bizet, and the ballet suite from Massenet's opera _Le Cid. _Comments on these or any other orchestral suites from the period (including recordings) are welcome. The orchestral suite turns out to have a history far different from what I expected, and it seems that more of them are being performed now. A lot of interesting stuff, if suites from operas appeal to you.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I have found a thread about opera suite specifically, but it is old - this one.

Edit: Aha, this one is yours:
Suite Spot: The Nineteenth-Century Orchestral Suite


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Thank you, BBSVK, for sending the link to the thread from 2017 that is new to me! I didn't know about the suites from operas by Janacek, Schoek, von Schillings, or Strauss (except for Rosenkavalier).Anyway I do hope more people will look at or post on the "Suite Spot" thread, because it has taken a lot of time to set up and there's much that can be easily learned.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Seattleoperafan said:


> ... I hope we hear more from you and don't be afraid to ask questions.


I have a question, having noticed on this thread and elsewhere how many knowledgeable people think opera singing has declined. If I understand rightly, it it seems that both artistry and technique are not what they were. Nevertheless, I know that in instrumental classical music technical standards are very high now, and though we don't have the larger than life figures as before there are still many outstanding artists.

Is the decline due to something amiss in singing instruction or performance conditions today? Or is it part of long-term cultural trends? Having spent considerable time in university music schools both as student and teacher I do see problems, and wouldn't even rule out the possibility that there are better options.

Probably this issue has been discussed before (_too much?_) and there's no simple answer, but maybe it's worth bringing up again now that a lot of changes are in the works.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Roger Knox said:


> I have a question, having noticed on this thread and elsewhere how many knowledgeable people think opera singing has declined. If I understand rightly, it it seems that both artistry and technique are not what they were. Nevertheless, I know that in instrumental classical music technical standards are very high now, and though we don't have the larger than life figures as before there are still many outstanding artists.
> 
> Is the decline due to something amiss in singing instruction or performance conditions today? Or is it part of long-term cultural trends? Having spent considerable time in university music schools both as student and teacher I do see problems, and wouldn't even rule out the possibility that there are better options.
> 
> Probably this issue has been discussed before (_too much?_) and there's no simple answer, but maybe it's worth bringing up again now that a lot of changes are in the works.


My unoficial theory is, that the general public perceives the operatic singing as unpleasant to the ears, especialy the female voices. The whole singing art developed, because no microphones existed. For somebody talented with a good voice, it is a decision, whether to "dump" the potential of the voice in the niche opera world, or train more "civilian" singing and go for pop.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> My unoficial theory is, that the general public perceives the operatic singing as unpleasant to the ears, especialy the female voices. The whole singing art developed, because no microphones existed. For somebody talented with a good voice, it is a decision, whether to "dump" the potential of the voice in the niche opera world, or train more "civilian" singing and go for pop.


Nowadays what passes for opera are amateurs who can sing high on talent shows and who sing O mio bambino caro with the aid of a microphone.. or Nessun dorma for men. The sound of voices that don't need amplification is unknown to most Americans at least.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *The sound of voices that don't need amplification is unknown to most Americans at least.*


Unfortunately - at least for me - voices that don't need amplification are known all too well and are far too common in Ireland - I have five sisters - not one of which would ever be described as a "good listener" - When we were growing up in Dublin, each one of them was able to shriek "Oh, fer Chrissake, lad, give it a rest - Jaysus!" with a volume level of such profound intensity that it was heard in Liverpool - across the Irish Sea - 217 km away.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

BBSVK said:


> ... For somebody talented with a good voice, it is a decision, whether to "dump" the potential of the voice in the niche opera world, or train more "civilian" singing and go for pop.


That is more or less what I thought. We have two (and more) different practices in singing. People more knowledgeable than I can discuss the details. What we in North America need is a cultural stream that supports good opera singing. We don't have that now, it has been whittled away. If we are to have opera (and oratorio, orchestral song, classical sacred and secular music) we need to build up the type of singing that allows opera to survive and flourish. More later.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Roger Knox said:


> What we in North America need is a cultural stream that supports good opera singing. We don't have that now, it has been whittled away. If we are to have opera (and oratorio, orchestral song, classical sacred and secular music) we need to build up the type of singing that allows opera to survive and flourish. More later.


The changes of singing technique, within opera, do not bother me as much as other people in this forum. I think Pavarotti did a lot for making opera a little more mainstream. I had fears opera will die away when I was little, and those fears have been put to rest at the time he was doing his big recitals, three tenors, singing at the sport stadions etc. Now those forgotten fears are back. Also, in my small country, the general quality of singing and singer selection improved in the generation after Peter Dvorský, because he was a little famous. I don't know, showbiznis is not always about the inherent eternal quality, but also about the perception of what is cool. Make opera cool somehow, more people will decide to be opera singers, and by a sheer statistical force, good voices will show up.
(I represent my opinion, not the one prevalent in this thread)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Roger Knox said:


> That is more or less what I thought. We have two (and more) different practices in singing. People more knowledgeable than I can discuss the details. What we in North America need is a cultural stream that supports good opera singing. We don't have that now, it has been whittled away. If we are to have opera (and oratorio, orchestral song, classical sacred and secular music) we need to build up the type of singing that allows opera to survive and flourish. More later.


This makes me frown and sigh. I may have grown too pessimistic with age, but I can't help feeling that the world has simply moved on. Where it's moving _to,_ I tremble to think and can't make an intelligent guess, but I suspect it's inexorably away from a culture that nourishes the kind and quality of singing we hear now mainly by digging out our old records. 

Unlike previous eras, the 20th century created a great museum of world culture in which nothing is ever completely lost or forgotten, and in which many things from the past can be preserved or revived, more or less forever. But that isn't to say that they can be preserved intact. I'm always impressed, as I survey the recorded history of singing, with the changes, not only in technique but in style and sensibility, exhibited by vocal artists over the span of less than a century. But this shouldn't surprise us if we merely observe the immense changes in nearly every aspect of life which have occurred over the same period. Singing may seem to be a fairly basic sort of physical activity with right and wrong ways of doing things, but if we look around the world at the diverse ways in which people not only sing but speak, I think we'll realize that vocal production is strongly affected by culture and sensibility. _Singing_ a certain way entails _feeling_ a certain way, and the world feels much different now than it did in the days of Patti, Plançon, Caruso or even Callas. I don't know just how much this matters to the state of operatic singing, but I can't help thinking that it matters enough to make a full reclamation of the art unlikely. Nothing would delight me more than to be proven wrong.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> This makes me frown and sigh. I may have grown too pessimistic with age, but I can't help feeling that the world has simply moved on. Where it's moving _to,_ I tremble to think and can't make an intelligent guess, but I suspect it's inexorably away from a culture that nourishes the kind and quality of singing we hear now mainly by digging out our old records....


I think probably you are right. Rereading my previous post, I was being too idealistic about what can be or needs to be accomplished if we are to have good opera singing. Specifically, I was reacting to Seattleoperafan's description in Post #9 where miked singing of single arias pretends to be "opera singing." That won't do, and even as things change we still need now to have a clear, supportable idea of what an opera singer is and does.

Also I realize now that there are personal factors involved that may give a better sense of where I'm coming from. I was a classical pianist but in my 20's had to give up performing because of arm trouble. Since then I've succeeded in making a living doing other things in the field of (mainly) classical music. Also I continue to sing in choirs, and have been told that my voice has improved over time in strength and tone quality. After my loss of the piano, having another way to participate in music-making is a great joy to me and I'm glad to be singing the traditional way. It feels good. Being around the professional singers who are section leads and conductors who help us with vocal technique has made me more and more a fan of good singing, but I shouldn't get carried away with the idea of a great revival of opera just yet!


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> This makes me frown and sigh. I may have grown too pessimistic with age, but I can't help feeling that the world has simply moved on. Where it's moving _to,_ I tremble to think and can't make an intelligent guess, but I suspect it's inexorably away from a culture that nourishes the kind and quality of singing we hear now mainly by digging out our old records.
> 
> Unlike previous eras, the 20th century created a great museum of world culture in which nothing is ever completely lost or forgotten, and in which many things from the past can be preserved or revived, more or less forever. But that isn't to say that they can be preserved intact. I'm always impressed, as I survey the recorded history of singing, with the changes, not only in technique but in style and sensibility, exhibited by vocal artists over the span of less than a century. But this shouldn't surprise us if we merely observe the immense changes in nearly every aspect of life which have occurred over the same period. Singing may seem to be a fairly basic sort of physical activity with right and wrong ways of doing things, but if we look around the world at the diverse ways in which people not only sing but speak, I think we'll realize that vocal production is strongly affected by culture and sensibility. _Singing_ a certain way entails _feeling_ a certain way, and the world feels much different now than it did in the days of Patti, Plançon, Caruso or even Callas. I don't know just how much this matters to the state of operatic singing, but I can't help thinking that it matters enough to make a full reclamation of the art unlikely. Nothing would delight me more than to be proven wrong.


I think you are correct in expressing that _a full reclamation of the art [is] unlikely_. There are too many forces conspiring against renewal. In this other thread I contributed my ¢.02, FWIW, from a different angle from yours.

Where have the big Verdi voices gone?

If I were a singer with some level or another of talent and read that article I would pivot into another profession, and quick. The pickings and chances are just too slim in the face of the mountains to climb associated with training expenses, time and effort. And that’s if you win the lottery of lucky, to which one would need to add travel expenses, agent fees, etc. The stark reality is that the investment is increasingly unrecoverable particularly in a society increasingly hostile to or uninterested in high European culture and where the cost of living everywhere, especially in the cultural capitals, has become prohibitive.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ALT said:


> I think you are correct in expressing that _a full reclamation of the art [is] unlikely_. There are too many forces conspiring against renewal. In this other thread I contributed my ¢.02, FWIW, from a different angle from yours.
> 
> Where have the big Verdi voices gone?
> 
> If I were a singer with some level or another of talent and read that article I would pivot into another profession, and quick. The pickings and chances are just too slim in the face of the mountains to climb associated with training expenses, time and effort. And that’s if you win the lottery of lucky, to which one would need to add travel expenses, agent fees, etc. The stark reality is that the investment is increasingly unrecoverable particularly in a society increasingly hostile to or uninterested in high European culture and where the cost of living everywhere, especially in the cultural capitals, has become prohibitive.


I completely agree, after reading the same thread.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Marina Rebeka says on interviews, that her grandfather took her to see her first opera when she was 13, and it was Norma. In the intermission she told him, she wants to sing this when she grows up. So she started her training comparatively late. And was not accepted to Latvian conservatory, so she worked her way around it. Whatever you think about her Norma (I am her dedicated fan) it a great story. Probably you need to be a passionate nut to dare to enter the operaworld.


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