# Music that has been meddled with by later composers



## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I don't have a list of these off-hand, but I keep coming across works where, somewhere along the line, they have been edited - sometimes heavily - or re-orchestrated or even added to. This has occurred during a composer's lifetime, but mostly posthumously.

My examples would be Holst's _Planets_, where some clot thought it would be a good idea to add another piece for Pluto (since demoted from planetary status so a waste of time). No offence to Colin Matthews of course, he's a fine musical scholar and composer, but some things just need to be left alone.

Another is the well-known reworking of Mussorgsky's _Night on Bald Mountain_ by Rimsky-Korsakov. I remember this being played by our primary school music teacher and the LP cover had Rimsky-Korsakov's name in large letters. So I naturally thought he was the composer.

Tell me more...


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Mahler meddled with Schumann's symphonies- first example that came to my head.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Mahler meddled with Schumann's symphonies- first example that came to my head.


Probably more decent than Brahms meddling with his wife.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Probably more decent than Brahms meddling with his wife.


I wrote a limerick about this once. I doubt whether the rules of the forum will allow me to share it with you.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Mahler meddled with Schumann's symphonies- first example that came to my head.


He did it slightly with Beethoven's 9th too.


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## Der Titan (Oct 17, 2016)

I think there was a new instrumentation of Handel's Messiah by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. But I never heard that.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Der Titan said:


> I think there was a new instrumentation of Handel's Messiah by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. But I never heard that.


I have. Stick with Handel.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Based on my recording of the Schumann-Mahler Symphony No. 2 conducted by Chailly, Schumann knew best.

Also Mozart's anachronistic "re-touchings" of Handel's Messiah, earned Mozart no feather in his cap, in my opinion.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Taplow said:


> I wrote a limerick about this once. I doubt whether the rules of the forum will allow me to share it with you.


That would be libel anyway. Brahms did however publish the original version of Robert Schumann's fourth symphony, much to Clara's displeasure, but this is already well known, I guess.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Michael Gordon rewrote Beethoven's 7th Symphony.

NSFW, where W = "whoever can't stand modern music".


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Recomposed by Max Richter: Vivaldi - The Four Seasons.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Improbus said:


> That would be libel anyway. Brahms did however publish the original version of Robert Schumann's fourth symphony, much to Clara's displeasure, but this is already well known, I guess.


You can't libel dead people, genius.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Rimsky-Korsakov made "revisions" to Mussorgsky's _Boris Godunov_. Mussorgsky's 1872 version is superior to both that and the 1868 versions IMO.

On the more positive side, Berio's _Rendering_ is built on the sketches of Schubert's unfinished 10th symphony.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> You can't libel dead people, genius.


I just checked the Swedish-English dictionary: the correct word would be slander.

Pardon me. :tiphat:


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Improbus said:


> I just checked the Swedish-English dictionary: the correct word would be slander.
> 
> Pardon me. :tiphat:


Or maybe that's not it either: it should probably be defamation.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Taplow said:


> I wrote a limerick about this once. I doubt whether the rules of the forum will allow me to share it with you.


encrypt it. now. somehow.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> Michael Gordon rewrote Beethoven's 7th Symphony.
> 
> NSFW, where W = "whoever can't stand modern music".


'music'? That's rather generous of you... Just read his bio on that site. Seems a right pretentious plonker.

"Michael Gordon's music merges subtle rhythmic invention with incredible power embodying, in the words of The New Yorker's Alex Ross, "the fury of punk rock, the nervous brilliance of free jazz and the intransigence of classical modernism."


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Many people monkeyed with the orchestration of Schumann's symphonies, which, the more the composer retouched, the worse they got. Unlike many, Schumann's first thoughts about many things were almost invariably better than his revisions.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Schumann’s 4th Symphony was written in 1840, and then revised with thicker orchestration in 1850. The latter is the version most often heard today.

John Eliot Gardiner’s Schuman symphony set has both versions, and I prefer the earlier. Brahms, also, seemed to have a soft spot for the 1840 version. Late in the century he got into a tiff with Clara because he wanted to include it in his edition of Schumann’s complete works, and Clara insisted it be left out. Clara lost that one.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Many people monkeyed with the orchestration of Schumann's symphonies, which, the more the composer retouched, the worse they got. Unlike many, Schumann's first thoughts about many things were almost invariably better than his revisions.


For example?.... I can't think of any.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Looks like Mahler re-orchestrated all four Schumann symphonies. Recordings are available. I see that Felix Weingartner did the same.

Mahler also retouched Beethoven's 9th, with an eye to making its sound more transparent with the big orchestras of his time, especially in the first movement. In my view he succeeded in some places, but not in others. Again, there is a recording available.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> Michael Gordon rewrote Beethoven's 7th Symphony.
> 
> NSFW, where W = "whoever can't stand modern music".


It's not that I can't stand modern music, but I couldn't stand more than a minute of that.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Mahler meddled with Schumann's symphonies- first example that came to my head.


Probably re-orchestrated it for a thousand musicians and a cowbell... 



Tallisman said:


> 'music'? That's rather generous of you... Just read his bio on that site. Seems a right pretentious plonker.
> 
> "Michael Gordon's music merges subtle rhythmic invention with incredible power embodying, in the words of The New Yorker's Alex Ross, "the fury of punk rock, the nervous brilliance of free jazz and the intransigence of classical modernism."


No doubt a brilliant juxtaposition of duality.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> 'music'? That's rather generous of you... Just read his bio on that site. Seems a right pretentious plonker.


For advertising himself to avoid dying of hunger? So pretentious.


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## Der Titan (Oct 17, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> For advertising himself to avoid dying of hunger? So pretentious.


From what terrible country does this poor man come from that he has to do so terrible things just not to die of starvation?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Der Titan said:


> From what terrible country does this poor man come from that he has to do so terrible things just not die of starvation?


Advertising is terrible? I mean in some instances, probably, yes, but citing a review of your work by a critic is something I've seen done everywhere by writers, painters, etc. At most it's mildly annoying.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Brahms edited the Schubert Symphonies. In this instance, I wouldn't consider the corrections or editorial decisions he made in the scores as "meddling"; he was doing it to come up with a performance edition so the symphonies could be heard. I feel he did a rather remarkable job, too, and it was done out of fondness and respect for the music. These actions are not always the product of evildoers but to help get certain composers heard, including what Rimsky-Korsakov did on behalf of Mussorgsky at the time. Fortunately, Mussorgsky's original scores can now be heard to note what the differences are.


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## Der Titan (Oct 17, 2016)

We didn't speak about Bruckner already and in this case all this meddling was terrible. The meddlers were mostly minor figures, although even Gustav Mahler once meddled a bit by abridging certain symphonies. As a matter of fact Bruckner's music was very often ruined by persons who somehow thought that they somehow should help Bruckner's music. The point is that Bruckner himself was a very shy person, very self-conscious, not exactly an intellectual, and intimidated by persons like these. People like Brahms for example who were much more smart would have never come into such a situation.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Der Titan said:


> The point is that Bruckner himself was a very shy person, very self-conscious, not exactly an intellectual, and intimidated by persons like these.


"An often-repeated anecdote tells how he [Bruckner] gave a tip to the aristocratic conductor Hans Richter after a successful rehearsal of his Symphony No. 4, telling Richter to go and buy himself a beer."

I seem to remember that Richter, amused, had the coin mounted and wore it on his keychain.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Der Titan said:


> We didn't speak about Bruckner already and in this case all this meddling was terrible. The meddlers were mostly minor figures, although even Gustav Mahler once meddled a bit by abridging certain symphonies. As a matter of fact Bruckner's music was very often ruined by persons who somehow thought that they somehow should help Bruckner's music. The point is that Bruckner himself was a very shy person, very self-conscious, not exactly an intellectual, and intimidated by persons like these. People like Brahms for example who were much more smart would have never come into such a situation.


Brahms did however reorchestrate works based on the advice of others, for better or worse, such as the piano quintet, which would have been a string quintet.


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## Der Titan (Oct 17, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> I have. Stick with Handel.


I will stick with Handel, but why? The instrumentation of the Messiah of Handel is glorious. For the most part it's the strings, harpsichord and the singers. The Messiah has 52 pieces. And it's mostly strings, vocal, and harpsichord, rarely organ. This lasts a very long time, and then you have the Hallelujah, a very famous piece, and suddenly, after such a long time ( after 41 of 52 pieces) , the trumpet and the drums are there - and that makes an unforgettable impact. And then the piece "The trumpet shall sound". This is an Air for the bass, but also for the trumpet, and when you will ever remember a piece with a trumpet, it will be exactly this piece "The trumpet shall sound". And in the final chorus the trumpet and the strings are there again. And this is unforgettable, so it would be completely foolish to change Handel's instrumentation. It would be as foolish as to think that the choir in Beethoven's 9th should be brought in much earlier, or that the choir in Mahler's 2nd should last much longer. And of course Mozart is a great composer by himself, but honestly spoken to improve Handel's Messiah is simply stupid.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> 'music'? That's rather generous of you... Just read his bio on that site. Seems a right pretentious plonker.
> 
> "Michael Gordon's music merges subtle rhythmic invention with incredible power embodying, in the words of The New Yorker's Alex Ross, "the fury of punk rock, the nervous brilliance of free jazz and the intransigence of classical modernism."


I've seen him in person a couple of times. He seems like a nice guy, really curious about creating new musical experiences, and in fact doesn't take it too seriously. The Alex Ross quote is spot on though.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Two Mozart operas I particularly enjoy had a few later alterations by admiring opera composers. Wagner took particular trouble to stage Don Giovanni in Zurich in 1851 and Ernest Newman says "Wagner spent three days and nights with Billow and Hitter correcting the orchestral parts and writing substitute parts for instruments, such as the trombones, that were missing from the local orchestra ; he made a working German dialogue version of some of the Italian recitatives, retaining others in their original form ; he simplified the scenic arrangements so as to avoid too many changes of the settings; he transposed Donna Anna's aria to the graveyard scene, writing, by way of introduction to it, a short musical recitative for Ottavio and Donna Anna." The Zurich score hasn't survived.

Then there was Richard Strauss's updated rehabilitation of Mozart's first operatic masterpiece Idomeneo for the 150th anniversary of its premiere. He apparently made a lot of cuts and inserted much of his own music composed for it so that a third of the opera is Strauss and the rest Mozart.



Der Titan said:


> I will stick with Handel, but why? The instrumentation of the Messiah of Handel is glorious. For the most part it's the strings, harpsichord and the singers. The Messiah has 52 pieces. And it's mostly strings, vocal, and harpsichord, rarely organ. This lasts a very long time, and then you have the Hallelujah, a very famous piece, and suddenly, after such a long time ( after 41 of 52 pieces) , the trumpet and the drums are there - and that makes an unforgettable impact. And then the piece "The trumpet shall sound". This is an Air for the bass, but also for the trumpet, and when you will ever remember a piece with a trumpet, it will be exactly this piece "The trumpet shall sound". And in the final chorus the trumpet and the strings are there again. And this is unforgettable, so it would be completely foolish to change Handel's instrumentation. It would be as foolish as to think that the choir in Beethoven's 9th should be brought in much earlier, or that the choir in Mahler's 2nd should last much longer. And of course Mozart is a great composer by himself, but honestly spoken to improve Handel's Messiah is simply stupid.


I believe Mozart's intent was on earning money, not "improving" Handel's music, which Mozart, by his own admission, greatly admired. However, the Viennese audience was extremely snobbish and wouldn't accept the work in its original form which would've been perceived by them as antiquated, so van Swieten suggested the work be adapted and Mozart accepted the task which he did with skill, sensitivity, and respect. Any major changes in instrumentation was for practical reasons, as in "The Trumpet Shall Sound," where there weren't any skilled trumpet players around to perform it.

Another important consideration is that Handel predicted the changes in the size and instrument families of musical ensembles which was to come and intentionally left space in many of his works to be filled by later composers, in some works there are even brief notes on how he wanted the piece to sound. Evidently Handel expected that, at some point, The Messiah would be rearranged, as he wrote about "future woodwinds" a few times when discussing the work.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Chronochromie said:


> For advertising himself to avoid dying of hunger? So pretentious.


I don't mind boastful advertising when it comes from someone who deserves it. But listening to that piece of music that Nereffid sent, I'm inclined to think it's unnecessary. I looked at some of his other stuff. Just another modern composer that thinks tearing up any musical and auditory rules he can think of somehow makes him a groundbreaking and daring genius.

And by the way, (according to his Wiki) he's award-winning and has been involved in loads of large-scale projects. I don't think he's starving :lol:


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Tallisman said:


> I don't mind boastful advertising when it comes from someone who deserves it.


Neither do I! Of course who each one considers deserving complicates things somewhat.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

trazom said:


> I believe Mozart's intent was on earning money, not "improving" Handel's music, which Mozart, by his own admission, greatly admired. However, the Viennese audience was extremely snobbish and wouldn't accept the work in its original form which would've been perceived by them as antiquated, so van Swieten suggested the work be adapted and Mozart accepted the task which he did with skill, sensitivity, and respect. Any major changes in instrumentation was for practical reasons, as in "The Trumpet Shall Sound," where there weren't any skilled trumpet players around to perform it.
> 
> Another important consideration is that *Handel predicted the changes in the size and instrument families of musical ensembles which was to come and intentionally left space in many of his works to be filled by later composers, *in some works there are even brief notes on how he wanted the piece to sound. Evidently Handel expected that, at some point, The Messiah would be rearranged, as *he wrote about "future woodwinds"* *a few times when discussing the work.*


Useful points. Handel himself approved reorchestrations of _Messiah_ depending on what players were available. It's quite authentic, for example, to double his string parts with reeds (oboes and bassoons). The orchestra at the first performance in Dublin consisted of strings, two trumpets, and timpani with Handel at the organ and probably harpsichord. Later, in London, the orchestra included fifteen violins, five violas, three cellos, two double-basses, four bassoons, four oboes, two trumpets, two horns, timpani, and keyboard (organ and harpsichord?). Mozart used clarinets, which were rare in Handel's day but very popular later, and although we don't know what Handel would have thought of them there's no reason to suppose he'd have objected to them, any more than Bach would likely have objected to using a piano in his keyboard works. Music of the period wasn't necessarily wedded to specific timbres.


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