# Can somebody explain The Tales of Hoffmann?



## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I've been starting to get to know The Tales of Hoffmann because I'm going to be seeing it live here in Seattle this spring.

I don't get it. I really don't. I don't get what the story is about or what the point is. There's a poet named Hoffmann who keeps getting tricked by the devil into falling in love and then being duped. That's about all I can gather, and I can't discern what the point of it all is. Everything seems self-indulgent and like it's trying to come across like there is really serious, important subject matter, but I don't get what it's all about.

Who is the devil character exactly? Who is this Muse figure that I read about in the synopsis' but don't see in the DVD I'm watching? Are there actually several women, or is it just one?

Basically, any question that could be asked about this opera, I need answered.

Thanks!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

As I understand it, it's basically about Hoffmann's journey into maturity and into being a poet, and learning the hard way about women.

The Muse is Nicklaus, the mezzo in men's clothes who accompanies Hoffmann on his journey of discovery.

The three women - doll, singer, prostitute - are all aspects of the diva Stella, the woman with whom Hoffmann is currently in love and who he rejects at the end in favour of his craft. In some cases they are sung by the same singers although the requirements are very different in each role. In each tale evil has a crucial part to play.

The three main acts are more or less based on Tales that the real Hoffmann actually wrote.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

One thing I'd like to add to Soave Fanciulla's post (which explains only the meaning of three women, and that is not all) is a quote from Domingo. There was a documentary movie in which he talked about his favourite roles. Regarding Hoffman, he said that the title character is "saved" by his love for art. When you look at the ending from the version done on the famous, DVD-released performance with Domingo/Serra/Cotrubas/Baltsa, it makes perfect sense. Hoffman sits brokenhearted, willing only to keep drinking and falling lower and lower. His muse appears and reminds him of what she can offer, tells him to belong to her, not to any "real" woman. He takes the hint and as the final chords resound, we see Hoffman transfigured. Still looking like a mess and sitting it the dirty bar (or whatever you call it), but we know that he is not going to buy another beer, get drunk again and sleep under the table after the curtain falls.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Two good answers given, but I'd like to expand a bit on the meaning of the opera philosophically, since I think that is what you're looking for.
Great artists / scientists or just generally "great" people in general (people who really push their field forward) only do so by being driven to succeed in that field, often to the detriment of the rest of their life. Not an easy choice! Einstein's personal relationships were famously troubled, no less so Alan Turing or Frank Lloyd Wright. Van Gogh's troubled personal life probably led him to become one of the all time great artists.
So the muse (and there is certainly one in the version you're watching -- played by a mezzo who may be dressed as a man or woman or unisex depending on the whims of the director) is saying to Hoffmann -- look, you can keep pursuing ideal love, or you can pursue your art and try to become truly great. Can't do both. Hoffmann, by the end, says "Yeah, even when I was pursuing love it didn't really work out. I'll let that part of my life take care of itself and not worry about it from now on, and instead will dedicate myself to my art." Whether he succeeds or not is undetermined and almost besides the point; it is a rare person who can put aside love to dedicate themselves to their craft.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Hello Mr. macgeek2005,

The Tales of Hoffmann is a funny operetta written by Offenbach in french originally. Let's hope your show will be in english so you can find it amusing. If not you are forced to know a bit of french 

For the roles, there are alot of them but as far as I understand there are: Hoffmann, Stella the singer, Olympia the doll, Antonia the girl and Giulietta the courtisan. There is also the Muse who is called Nicklausse by Hoffman. There also are others ( a bunch of them, so confusing )

The story is Hoffmann is drinking in a pub. He asks what he can do best in life. The Muse wants him to be poet to kowtow her. Stella the singer wants to meet Hoffmann after her show because she loves him. Hoffman is so drunk that he tells his friends about the story of his 3 loves. 
Hoffman first met Olympia the doll and felt in love with her until he knows Olympia is only a robot.
Next he met Antonia and they were in love with each other but Antonia passed away because of her illness.
He then met Giulietta the courtisan and also felt in love of her. But Giullietta only abused him to have what she wants. Giulietta is also dead at the end in Hoffman's arm.
Desperately, Hoffman returned to the pub and thinks back of his 3 loves. He suddenly understands each woman of his love is just an image of Stella the singer. He is so philosophical that he wants to become a poet. Stella the singer entered only to find Hoffman tells her get out of the pub because he wants to be a poet from now on. The Muse then appears and claims him. End of story!

That's all I can understand of this operetta. There are 2 beautiful melodies : 
Olympia the doll sings les oiseaux dans les charmilles or The doll song





And Nuit d'amour or Barcarolle 





As the operetta is in french, let's hope Natalie Dessay will play Olympia the doll in your show. She sings really well.

Have fun!


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

Thank you for the replies so far!

I'm still unclear on what the whole "they are aspects of Stella" thing means… do those other women actually exist or not?

Also, in the production I'm watching, Giuletta is the second act, and she doesn't die in his arms at the end. She rides off in a boat with the ugly troll guy.

And who is Lindorf exactly? Is he the devil? In this production (the only one on DVD, with Domingo), the Lindorf character from the prologue appears at the end of each of the acts to laugh at Hoffmann… but there are in addition to him different personalities playing the 'bad' guy throughout each act. The devil guy who gives the ring to Giuletta is not Lindorf… Lindorf comes out of the Giuletta's mirror at the end of the act….

It's very different from the synopsis' I've read, and some of the synopsis' contradict each other.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Macgeek: As I understand it, the issue of whether Olympia, Antonia, and Giulietta actually exist or not is open to interpretation. But many people seem to think that they don't really exist, that they are merely products of Hoffmann's imagination. He is trying to, for lack of a better phrase, "work through" his feelings for Stella as well as his life-purpose; being a poet, he does this not by consulting a psychiatrist but by inventing fictional tales.

One has also to remember that the opera itself has an extremely convoluted history, because of the fact that Offenbach died before completing it. Thus it seems an infinite number of different versions exist. Just to give you an idea: I've seen three productions of _Hoffmann_ (five if you count the one I saw on DVD and the one I have on CD), and in each one I encountered some scene or aria I had never heard before!

It's one of my favorite operas; I got to know it in college and took to it immediately. But I believe it's very much an opera for a certain type of sensibility; I don't think it will ever be a truly popular, "crowd-pleasing" work.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

In the production I attended:
The prologue & the first act: Hoffman in the pub.
The second act: Olympia the doll. The Doll song is in this act
The third act: Antonia the girl. Barcarolle is at the beginning of this act.
The fourth act: Giuletta the courtisan. Giuletta died at the end of this act.
The fifth act: Hoffman is back in the pub. 

-Lindorf is the man who loves Stella the singer. He appears at the first act to steal a letter of Stella the singer. He also appears at the end (the fifth) when Hoffman tells Stella to leave. Lindorf tells Stella he loves her and they leave the pub together at the end.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Antony said:


> As the operetta is in french, let's hope Natalie Dessay will play Olympia the doll in your show. She sings really well.


She's retired from opera. By now, her doll costume is probably on E-bay.



macgeek2005 said:


> Also, in the production I'm watching, Giuletta is the second act, and she doesn't die in his arms at the end. She rides off in a boat with the ugly troll guy.


Keep in mind that the composer dropped dead before finishing this operetta and everyone's been trying to find a solution ever since. I've seen Hoffmann six times and no two had the same ending. Either that, or the acts were ordered differently. I prefer not to read too much into it and just treat it like a revue.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

As both Antony and Couac Addict called it an operetta, I'd like to address the point. While Offenbach is perhaps most known for his many wonderful operettas, Hoffmann is generally considered a full-fledged opera, albeit his only one.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

rgz said:


> As both Antony and Couac Addict called it an operetta, I'd like to address the point. While Offenbach is perhaps most known for his many wonderful operettas, Hoffmann is generally considered a full-fledged opera, albeit his only one.


...particularly by producers who know that the Gilbert & Sullivan crowd won't accept it and that opera stalwarts will turn their noses at anything referred to as an operetta. 

Perhaps it depends on our definitions of opera/operettas.

...serious body of work? Or _Disney On Ice_ without the ice skates.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I'm still unclear on what the whole "they are aspects of Stella" thing means… do those other women actually exist or not?


Imagine it's a movie. The scenes including the three women are like flashbacks to the past, the present time is in the bar. These flashbacks are what Hofmann is telling his drinking mates. After he finishes, it's clearly indicated that the whole thing was a story that he told them. And the story is a metaphore. So no, the women don't exist literally.

And one more thing I forgot. The opera uses kind of "leitmotive" and one point. The ecstatic theme from duet between Giulietta and Hoffman is later repeated when Hoffman is brought back to life by his muse. WHAT... CAN IT... MEAN?! Well, you don't have to be genius to make something out of it.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> She's retired from opera. By now, her doll costume is probably on E-bay.
> ...


Well, maybe she will make a comeback, Mr Couac Addict !

because I have ticket for her show next year 2014

http://promusica.qc.ca/?p=1448


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Antony said:


> Well, maybe she will make a comeback, Mr Couac Addict !
> 
> because I have ticket for her show next year 2014
> 
> http://promusica.qc.ca/?p=1448


Point taken. I meant opera _productions_.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

rgz said:


> As both Antony and Couac Addict called it an operetta, I'd like to address the point. While Offenbach is perhaps most known for his many wonderful operettas, Hoffmann is generally considered a full-fledged opera, albeit his only one.


Mr Rgz,

Being only a classic & opera enthousiast with no deep knowledge of classical music, I really want to know how to classify them correctly. Please give some pointers. 
Thank you.

@Mr Couac Addict,
Please take it friendly. Does Natalie Dessay retire from opera production? Oh no! I hope not. She sings really well Amina in La Sonnambula.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Antony said:


> Mr Rgz,
> 
> Being only a classic & opera enthousiast with no deep knowledge of classical music, I really want to know how to classify them correctly. Please give some pointers.
> Thank you.


I wish it were as easy as saying something has X feature so it's an opera and this other thing lacks X feature so it's an operetta. Your question is one I asked in one of my first weeks here. As a general rule:

Operas have more extensive / complex orchestration than operettas. Orphee aux Enfers is a fabulous operetta and one of my all time favorite pieces of music, but the orchestration is noticeably more straightforward, even to the untrained ear, than the typical opera is. Of course, one can point to Philip Glass operas as full-fledged operas that don't have the complexity of orchestration of, say, Simon Boccanegra. So this alone isn't sufficient.
Operettas tend to have spoken recit. Of course, one can point to opera comique or singspiel as operas that have spoken recit, so this alone isn't sufficient.
Operettas tend to have lighter, whimsical, or satirical plots with heavy doses of less restrained sexual content. But one can find counterexamples in either direction.

Of all these, I'd say the orchestration is the most important, along with the weightiness of the story. In a sense, it's kind of like saying "What makes Harry Potter a Young Adult novel while Of Human Bondage definitively isn't? They both deal with a coming of age story, death is an important part of the storyline, etc." Especially as towards the end of the Harry Potter series, they grow darker and more mature (but similarly, how does one define mature w/r/t an artistic work?). Is the last Harry Potter book a full-fledged novel for adults, given its events? Or for an example of books written by the same person and in the same genre, why is The Hobbit a young adult book and Lord of the Rings skews older? It's tough to define objectively but the truth is plain to see when reading them.

Sorry I don't have a more satisfactory answer 



> @Mr Couac Addict,
> Please take it friendly. Does Natalie Dessay retire from opera production? Oh no! I hope not. She sings really well Amina in La Sonnambula.


She is my all time favorite singer and I'm afraid it's sadly true, though it was probably time. Her voice has been in decline for several years (with marked decline the last year or two), she's not interested in the roles her vocal type is appropriate for, and she's never really had an innate love for opera _cum_ opera in the first place. She's one of the most fascinating figures in the opera world and opera is diminished for not having her, but it was probably time.
Just glad I got to meet her (albeit very briefly) back in 2011. Had an interview lined up with her for another site but that got cancelled, tragically.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Antony said:


> Mr Rgz,
> 
> Being only a classic & opera enthousiast with no deep knowledge of classical music, I really want to know how to classify them correctly. Please give some pointers.
> Thank you.
> ...


It is not an operetta but the grand opera that Offenbach had always wanted to write .
We went into this matter in the thread "Jacques Offenbach" ,September 22nd , do have a look at the complications re: versions.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Antony said:


> @Mr Couac Addict,
> Please take it friendly. Does Natalie Dessay retire from opera production? Oh no! I hope not. She sings really well Amina in La Sonnambula.


I'm not even sure if she intends to do opera recitals in future. I expect she'd still have a few contractual obligations to meet but overall, her tour schedule is for the new album...which is full of movie tunes like this


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

@Mr Rgz,
Short question needs long reply  Thank you for your helps
To be funny, as we are talking Hoffman's tales, your reply reminds me the fantastic monologue of AlPacino in The Devil's Advocate!

Of course her voice is in decline after 2 throat surgeries. But with her skills, there still are roles she can play in opera. Don't you think ? There are plenty of roles in Mozat's operas which fit her age and voice easily


@Mr Moody, 
Thank you for pointers. I'll look into it. 

@Mr CouacAddict
What can one say? She wants to explore new horizons. Opera's singers easily sing every kind of music. One can only hope she will re-discover soon the joy of opera's world.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Antony - She could probably sing Susanna. Konigen der Nacht she has sung but never really liked and anyway the high Fs are perhaps out of reach now. Zerlina, probably Blondchen (which she has sung before). The dramatic appeal of a role is her biggest concern and neither of those roles are really that interesting for her. She _could_ sing Pamina (and has, once or twice) but Pamina really wants a fuller voice than she has. Similarly, she has sung Constanze but ... well listen




This is my favorite rendition of Martern aller Arten but to someone familiar with her voice, it's clear she's pushing it to its very limits. This was shortly before her first throat surgery, and a lot of her roles around this time you can hear her trying to push her voice to be bigger and stronger. I think that may have contributed to her throat problems.

I really wish she would have sung Rosina and Adina at some point, but alas.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Mr Rgz,

If I did not watch, I would not believe it's actually her voice in the tube you posted.

Here is her Violetta at MET last year .

Estrano, estrano




Addio del Passato





Huge differences! isn't it? There still are a lot of power, depth, feelings, emotions in her Violetta. Her skills in trills, arpergios are still superbs. So I just guess her Martern aller Arten was just an accident 
--
Well, I just hope she will rediscover her joy to sing in an Opera. To name a few: I would see her in Donna Anna, Susanna, Fiordiligili, Dorabella,...even Despina (why not?). I would also see her in Contessa.

Besides Mozart, I would see her in Octavian, Marshallin. To be funny, she would be a joyful Adele, a wicked Rosalinde or a merry Hanna.

Don't you think so ?


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Antony said:


> @Mr CouacAddict
> What can one say? She wants to explore new horizons. Opera's singers easily sing every kind of music. One can only hope she will re-discover soon the joy of opera's world.


...good for her but not good for me :lol:
With her voice in decline and the death of her manager, she probably just wanted to get away from it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have tried twice (and spent several hours at it) to find a DVD of Les Contes d'Hoffman that I liked, but none really do it for me. I have this opera on CD and would not have even that, but for it was a way to get more Beverly Sills. Maybe I don't really like this opera and should leave it be, but for the Sills on CD. If there were a DVD of it with Beverly Sills then the decision would be easy--hit buy. But short of that, this opera does not that much entice me.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Florestan said:


> I have tried twice (and spent several hours at it) to find a DVD of Les Contes d'Hoffman that I liked, but none really do it for me. I have this opera on CD and would not have even that, but for it was a way to get more Beverly Sills. Maybe I don't really like this opera and should leave it be, but for the Sills on CD. If there were a DVD of it with Beverly Sills then the decision would be easy--hit buy. But short of that, this opera does not that much entice me.


I'm really pleased you've resurrected this thread as I'm seeing it soon and any explanation of the plot is helpful. What is worse I'm going with an opera novice and she's asked me to explain the plot.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> *I'm really pleased you've resurrected this thread* as I'm seeing it soon and any explanation of the plot is helpful. What is worse I'm going with an opera novice and she's asked me to explain the plot.


I like resurrecting old threads. It makes me feel powerful. Resurrection is no small feat.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

sospiro said:


> I'm really pleased you've resurrected this thread as I'm seeing it soon and any explanation of the plot is helpful. What is worse I'm going with an opera novice and she's asked me to explain the plot.


Seattle Opera has a good overview:
http://www.seattleoperablog.com/p/spotlight-on-opera-4.html


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> Seattle Opera has a good overview:
> http://www.seattleoperablog.com/p/spotlight-on-opera-4.html


That is one weird opera! I think I'll just stick with the Beverly Sills recording and leave it at that. If I were to get a DVD though it would be this one:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I have tried twice (and spent several hours at it) to find a DVD of Les Contes d'Hoffman that I liked, but none really do it for me. I have this opera on CD and would not have even that, but for it was a way to get more Beverly Sills. Maybe I don't really like this opera and should leave it be, but for the Sills on CD. If there were a DVD of it with Beverly Sills then the decision would be easy--hit buy. But short of that, this opera does not that much entice me.


The one with Domingo / Baltsa / Cotrubas is a very fine and good performance.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

SimonTemplar said:


> Seattle Opera has a good overview:
> http://www.seattleoperablog.com/p/spotlight-on-opera-4.html


That's the best explanation I've read! Thank you. I've sent a link to my friend.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Florestan said:


> That is one weird opera! I think I'll just stick with the Beverly Sills recording and leave it at that. If I were to get a DVD though it would be this one:


I've got this










and this










but my favourite is my bootleg DVD with Joseph Calleja from the Met


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

When it works it overwhelms you. I've seen 3 productions and they all lacked something....coherence? Not helped by Offenbach's indecision as to the best version. Best to get the general idea and then be swept away...

I've said it before but if I'm going to sit at home watching a screen I much prefer a film of an Opera to a filmed performance.

This was Directed by the celebrated team of Powell and Pressburger - well known to cinephille's but perhaps not so much to the general public these days. They had a massive hit with a ballet film - The Red Shoes - and followed up with Hoffmann. If anything it hangs together even less well than a stage performance but oh the parts of it are wonderful.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> The one with Domingo / Baltsa / Cotrubas is a very fine and good performance.


But on You Tube I found a scene that was objectionable to me. Whether the other productions do it the same I don't know. But apart from that, one of the Natalie Dessay DVDs would to run competition with the Baltsa/Cotrubas set.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> But on You Tube I found a scene that was objectionable to me. Whether the other productions do it the same I don't know. But apart from that, one of the Natalie Dessay DVDs would to run competition with the Baltsa/Cotrubas set.


I've seen one and I am not sure it was with Dessay, set in a mental hospital amongst others, despicable.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

First I watched it with Dessay and in fact I cared so little about a plot as such as an OP asked -well, the thread is old, I hope he got his questions answered by now  but was overwhelmed by beauty, in all its aspects. This opera is about Beauty, there are many interpretations of what and how it should be understood....mm...sure it's an interesting subject in itself to think about ....

but above all it is Beauty and it is about beauty, such a mesmerizing fairy tale , fairy tale of fairy tales with a philosophical meaning.

Simply makes one fall in love instantly while first watching/listening to it


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

It is clearly about beauty and fairy tales.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> When it works it overwhelms you. I've seen 3 productions and they all lacked something....coherence? Not helped by Offenbach's indecision as to the best version. Best to get the general idea and then be swept away...
> 
> I've said it before but if I'm going to sit at home watching a screen I much prefer a film of an Opera to a filmed performance.
> 
> This was Directed by the celebrated team of Powell and Pressburger - well known to cinephille's but perhaps not so much to the general public these days. They had a massive hit with a ballet film - The Red Shoes - and followed up with Hoffmann. If anything it hangs together even less well than a stage performance but oh the parts of it are wonderful.


wonderful movie! Thanks for your suggestion


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

helenora said:


> wonderful movie! Thanks for your suggestion


I found it, ridiculous prices though.


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