# Who is "American"?



## itywltmt

I've seen this in a few posts last week, and it is a pet peeve of mine.

"Convention" has made it acceptable to equate "American" with "born in the USA". Last I checked, when Columbus discovered America, he landed on the island of Hispaniola (Haiti & the Dominican Republic) and not on the coast of Maine.

I guess this is a bit of a rant, but I wish people would stop using "American" to mean "United States-ian", in deference to Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, etc., etc.

There is life North (and South) of where your weather map ends.

I feel better already!


----------



## Argus

The USA is the only country with America in its name, so it makes sense to call people from there Americans. Much simpler than using United Statesians, or USians. To include Canada, I usually say North Americans.


----------



## Aramis

In Canada pine trees I roar.


----------



## itywltmt

Argus said:


> The USA is the only country with America in its name, so it makes sense to call people from there Americans. Much simpler than using United Statesians, or USians.


I never thought of it that way... Maybe you got me there...

*EDIT: Okay then (we're just talking here...) what if the South had won the Civil War. As the Confederate States of America, they too could have claimed the moniker "American". Would you have forever been known as Yankees, then? How convenient of you to have vanquished the secessionists!*


----------



## Weston

Argus said:


> The USA is the only country with America in its name, so it makes sense to call people from there Americans. Much simpler than using United Statesians, or USians. To include Canada, I usually say North Americans.


This is the most reasonable explanation for the term I have ever heard. I too have always hated it, and I'm a USAian. 

I first encountered the problem when I referred to Rush as an American progressive rock band on a bulletin board (what we had before internet forums) and got a bunch of replies correcting me that no, they are Canadian. So you get in trouble either way.


----------



## Argus

Weston said:


> This is the most reasonable explanation for the term I have ever heard. I too have always hated it, and I'm a USAian.
> 
> I fist encountered the problem when I referred to Rush as an American progressive rock band on a bulletin board (what we had before internet forums) and got a bunch of replies correcting me that no, they are Canadian. So you get in trouble either way.


I don't particularly like the acronyms US and UK. I think they're a bit arrogant because they don't mention the name of the lands, you're just supposed to presume the America and Great Britain (and NI) parts respectively.

When you say American over here most people automatically relate it to the USA, not Candada or Central/South America.


----------



## Almaviva

No, no, no.

Just think of it this way: West Germany's full name between 1949 and 1990 was Federal Republic of Germany (Bundesrepublik Deutschland). Did anybody refer to West Germans as Federal Republicans? No, we called them Germans. At one point Brazil's full name was United States of Brazil. Did anybody call them United Statesians? No, we called them Brazilians. Then the name changed to Federal Republic of Brazil. We still called them Brazilians, not Federal Republicans.

Sovereign countries have a right to name themselves. We've named our country United States of *America. *Therefore, we're Americans. The name of our country is America. United States is just a way to refer to the fact that we are a federation. These are states *of* America. They are states of the country called America.

It's not the first time nor the last one that geographic locations, cities, states, and countries adopt for smaller divisions the same name of the larger division.

You get Mexico City and around the federal district there, you find the state of Mexico, and it is in its turn within the country of Mexico.

You have New York City and the state of New York. That's why you put this on envelopes: 234 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York. Similarly, you can say: I'm in America, North America.

There is nothing wrong with calling a country America, even though it is within the continent of North America which in its turn is within the larger continent the Americas (North, Central, South).

In our founding documents there *are* instances of the country being called just America, not even United States of America.

Have you ever heard the song "America the beautiful"? There's a reason why the song is not called "United States of America the beautiful." It's because the country is America.

Sorry guys, we have a right to name our country, and we've named it America. We are Americans.


----------



## science

I agree with all of Alma's points.

But I'd add one more: If other people want to call us something else, they're welcome to it. I'm still not comfortable saying "Myanmar" because it seems like a concession to the government there; and I won't be switching from "Korea" to "Han-****" or from China to "Jung-guo" in the near future. We've all been talking about Me_ksi_co rather than Me-_hee_-co, on roughly the same principle.

If you want to call Americans something else, consider "Me-goo-geen." That's what Koreans call us. Doesn't sound flattering in English, but in Korean it literally means "people from the beautiful country."


----------



## Fsharpmajor

itywltmt said:


> I wish people would stop using "American" to mean "United States-ian", in deference to Canadians, Mexicans, Brazilians, etc., etc


The problem vis a vis Americans and Canadians can be avoided by the use of the terms "Yanks" and "Canucks." :devil:

When I lived in the USA, I don't think I every heard anybody refer to it as America in routine conversation. It was always the US, USA, or the "States." But adjectives based on those are awkward; hence the use of "American" as the preferred adjective, even though it is technically inaccurate.

In the UK people routinely refer to USA as America, and being Canadian myself, I do find that a bit annoying, especially since in my experience (I lived in Baltimore--it might be different elsewhere) Americans don't do it themselves, except on special occasions such as presidential speeches.


----------



## Almaviva

science said:


> I agree with all of Alma's points.
> 
> But I'd add one more: If other people want to call us something else, they're welcome to it. I'm still not comfortable saying "Myanmar" because it seems like a concession to the government there; and I won't be switching from "Korea" to "Han-****" or from China to "Jung-guo" in the near future. We've all been talking about Me_ksi_co rather than Me-_hee_-co, on roughly the same principle.
> 
> If you want to call Americans something else, consider "Me-goo-geen." That's what Koreans call us. Doesn't sound flattering in English, but in Korean it literally means "people from the beautiful country."


Yes, I have a Croatian friend who can't understand why in the hell we call her country Croatia, since it's actually Hrvatska. She of course understands the historical migration of the people called White Croats to her native land in the 7th century, but actually this doesn't really help because in their language these were called the Byelohravati, after the name of one of the five tribal leaders of those nomads, a man named Hrvat. So it's only others who ever called these nomad tribes the Croats and named Croatia the land they settled in Dalmatia, because the locals have always referred to their ethnic tribe and to the land as respectively Hravati and Hrvatska.

So if people want to call us something different, fine, but *we* will continue to call ourselves Americans.


----------



## Polednice

I really hate it when people talk about travelling to Luxembourg when they're really just talking about the capital, Luxembourg, not the country, Luxembourg. What a horrific generalisation!

---

It seems to me that there simply exists _one_ adjective for _more than one_ object. Americans are people from the US; they are also people from Brazil or Canada, or the whole group of continents. The use of the word in reference to people from the States is _not_ an oversight of other people on that continent, or even incorrect; it just so happens that the adjective has multiple meanings.


----------



## Almaviva

Fsharpmajor said:


> The problem vis a vis Americans and Canadians can be avoided by the use of the terms "Yanks" and "Canucks." :devil:
> 
> When I lived in the USA, I don't think I every heard anybody refer to it as America in routine conversation. It was always the US, USA, or the "States." But adjectives based on those are awkward; hence the use of "American" as the preferred adjective, even though it is technically inaccurate.
> 
> In the UK people routinely refer to USA as America, and being Canadian myself, I do find that a bit annoying, especially since in my experience (I lived in Baltimore--it might be different elsewhere) Americans don't do it themselves, except on special occasions such as presidential speeches.


Whaaat?
1. It's not technically inaccurate, see my long post above.
2. We routinely refer to our country as America. I don't know about those folks in Baltimore, but I've been around, and everywhere I go I hear people referring to our country as America. Yes, we also do refer to it as the US or USA or United States *for short *but I believe it's rather ingrained here that the *name of the country* is America. It's pretty common to hear someone saying "here in America we like... blah blah blah" or "America's favorite pastime is baseball" or "Football is the most popular sport in America" etc, etc. We're obviously referring to the country, not the continent when we say these things (for the good reason, for instance, that the last two sports references wouldn't be accurate in the rest of the continent The Americas where soccer is king, with the exception of Canada in which it is hockey and a couple of other exceptions such as Venezuela and the Dominican Republic where they also like baseball. So, who do you think we are referring to when we call baseball America's pastime?

Sorry sir, but I really doubt this statement of yours, that you've never heard *anybody* refer to the country as America in routine conversation during your stay in Baltimore. After all, Baltimore is the land of the perky Orioles, and I'm quite sure you've heard the expression 'America's pastime' when you lived there. Or else you weren't really paying attention. Think back carefully, and you may remember those occasions and realize that I'm right.


----------



## Almaviva

Polednice said:


> I really hate it when people talk about travelling to Luxembourg when they're really just talking about the capital, Luxembourg, not the country, Luxembourg. What a horrific generalisation!
> 
> ---
> 
> It seems to me that there simply exists _one_ adjective for _more than one_ object. Americans are people from the US; they are also people from Brazil or Canada, or the whole group of continents. The use of the word in reference to people from the States is _not_ an oversight of other people on that continent, or even incorrect; it just so happens that the adjective has multiple meanings.


Actually I know for a fact - since my wife is Brazilian, my sister lives there, I speak Portuguese, and I've visited Brazil *multiple* times - that *no* Brazilians refer to themselves as Americans. The word "Americanos" (Portuguese for Americans) in colloquial language has *always* (or at least in recent history since Brazil is 511 years old) been used to refer to the people of the United States of America. When my son who speaks good Portuguese but with an American accent visits his cousins from his mother's side of the family and they meet other kids on the streets, they always recognize his accent and ask him: "Você é americano?" (Are you American?). Look, if they took themselves for "Americanos" because of the continent, they wouldn't ever ask the question like this, would they?

It seems like the people who have a problem with this are not even the other continental "Americans" (oh wait, the OP is Canadian).

To tell you the truth, and since I don't see the same problem applied to countries like the Federal Republic of Germany, I think you guys pick on us like this just as another symptom of a certain anti-Americanism (just like when you get outraged that we call Association Football, soccer, although the name was created by an Englishman, or when you complain that we call our baseball championship World Series when only teams from America and Canada participate).

We have our linguistic conventions on how we call stuff, and it's no big deal. It's what other countries do as well, and they aren't questioned. Just look at the Italians, they speak a Latin language, it would be easy for them to name the sport of Association Football something that sounded like Futebalo or something like this (just a guess), but they chose to call it *calcio *which is much more inaccurate than soccer (while soccer is a contraction of the official name of the sport, As*soc*iation Football, calcio was the name of a completely different medieval sport so it's highly inappropriate) however I've *never* heard people picking on the Italians for calling the sport calcio, while they're always bugging us for calling it soccer.


----------



## itywltmt

OK guys, I thought the purpose for this discussion area was "*fun threads*".

I don't call myself "American" because I live on the continent of America, and I have no issues being thought of as "Canadian", "French-Canadian". Nothing wrong with that. Appellations of "Canuck" and "Frog" are more irksome (the latter hurtful and wholly inaccurate since I am neither a batracian, nor French - not that there's anything wrong with eirtther but I digress).

This wasn't a call to arms, and I don't want to change people's use of the term "American". This was all about ribbing 300 million people, 'tis all.

Just setting the record straight.

In fact, it is sometimes a good thing that people don't think of us (Canadians) as _Americans_... It is *not *an urban legend that Americans travelling in Europe put a Meple Leaf on their luggage - I won't add more to that thought, or I'll need to run for the hills!

Happy Sunday!


----------



## Almaviva

itywltmt said:


> OK guys, I thought the purpose for this discussion area was "*fun threads*".
> 
> I don't call myself "American" because I live on the continent of America, and I have no issues being thought of as "Canadian", "French-Canadian". Nothing wrong with that. Appellations of "Canuck" and "Frog" are more irksome (the latter hurtful and wholly inaccurate since I am neither a batracian, nor French - not that there's anything wrong with eirtther but I digress).
> 
> This wasn't a call to arms, and I don't want to change people's use of the term "American". This was all about ribbing 300 million people, 'tis all.
> 
> Just setting the record straight.
> 
> In fact, it is sometimes a good thing that people don't think of us (Canadians) as _Americans_... It is *not *an urban legend that Americans travelling in Europe put a Meple Leaf on their luggage - I won't add more to that thought, or I'll need to run for the hills!
> 
> Happy Sunday!


Hey, I'm not angry. I just like a good debate, 'tis all.
And fortunately, I don't even need to use the Maple Leaf because I have dual citizenship, I can travel in Europe with my Italian passport.


----------



## itywltmt

Almaviva said:


> And fortunately, I don't even need to use the Maple Leaf because I have dual citizenship, I can travel in Europe with my Italian passport.


How can you live with yourself! :lol:

(I just couldn't resist...)


----------



## Almaviva

itywltmt said:


> How can you live with yourself! :lol:
> 
> (I just couldn't resist...)


 Well, who doesn't want to be well treated? I've observed that I'm better treated when I handle my Italian passport to the hotel clerk as opposed to my American passport. Yep, people don't like us... 

But I'm firmly convinced that in 30 years when the ruthless Chinese finish their quest for world dominance by, well, achieving it, people will regret the good old times when the Americans were on top.


----------



## Argus

Almaviva said:


> We have our linguistic conventions on how we call stuff, and it's no big deal. It's what other countries do as well, and they aren't questioned. Just look at the Italians, they speak a Latin language, it would be easy for them to name the sport of Association Football something that sounded like Futebalo or something like this (just a guess), but they chose to call it *calcio *which is much more inaccurate than soccer (while soccer is a contraction of the official name of the sport, As*soc*iation Football, calcio was the name of a completely different medieval sport so it's highly inappropriate) however I've *never* heard people picking on the Italians for calling the sport calcio, while they're always bugging us for calling it soccer.


It's not that you call football 'soccer', it's that you call your American handball game 'football'. Why not just call it gridiron and avoid any confusion?



itywltmt said:


> I don't call myself "American" because I live on the continent of America, and I have no issues being thought of as "Canadian", "French-Canadian". Nothing wrong with that. Appellations of "Canuck" and "Frog" are more irksome (the latter hurtful and wholly inaccurate since I am neither a batracian, nor French - not that there's anything wrong with eirtther but I digress).


I call French-Canadians 'confused'.

Actually, Yanks is a pretty common term for Americans, but I can't say I've ever heard the word Canuck over here (or over there when I've been).


----------



## itywltmt

Almaviva said:


> Well, who doesn't want to be well treated? I've observed that I'm better treated when I handle my Italian passport to the hotel clerk as opposed to my American passport. Yep, people don't like us...
> 
> But I'm firmly convinced that in 30 years when the ruthless Chinese finish their quest for world dominance by, well, achieving it, people will regret the good old times when the Americans were on top.


I was more thinking about being part American, and part-Italian. No wonder you like debates!


----------



## itywltmt

Argus said:


> I call French-Canadians 'confused'.


You get used to it, I guess.


----------



## Almaviva

Argus said:


> It's not that you call football 'soccer', it's that you call your American handball game 'football'. Why not just call it gridiron and avoid any confusion?


 That's because all the sports codes that evolved from the medieval game of football were so-called because they were played with a ball, on foot, as opposed to on horseback. So the full name of many of these codes has a qualifier before the word football, as in Association Football, American Football, Australian Football, and so forth. Rugby ended up adopting another name, and Gridiron is actually a name that is in existence around here and relatively frequently used, it just hasn't caught on as much as Football. I have no problem with the name Gridiron eventually catching on and substituting the name Football, and I believe nobody else here would have a problem with that either, but linguistic conventions take a while to change (sometimes, centuries). Meanwhile, other countries such as South Africa and Australia also use the word soccer when they refer to Association Football (and the Australians also use Australian Rules Football for a game that is mostly played with the hands) and again, I don't see anybody bugging them. You must confess that there is something about America that makes people pick on us, it's not really objective, otherwise they'd have to pick on those other countries that have similar linguistic conventions exactly the same way, and it just doesn't happen.


----------



## Almaviva

itywltmt said:


> I was more thinking about being part American, and part-Italian. No wonder you like debates!


 Oh yeah, baby, I do!
That hot Italian blood mixed with some American arrogance is a killer!:lol:


----------



## science

Changing the subject a bit - 

In the long run, if China adopts mercantilist policies, in order to compete the 3 North American countries are going to have to grow closer together anyway. A lot of people have foreseen this. Barring some surprising twists in the drug war, I don't expect to see major movement that direction for at least 20 or 30 more years, but already the movements of capital, goods, and even labor between the three is increasingly free. And if demographic trends don't change too much, in 2050 Hispanics (a group that includes Cubans and so on as well as Mexicans) will be about 30% of the US population (about doubling their current proportion) - that will not push the US and Mexico apart. 

But I think the whole Caribbean will be drawn in as well. Hispanics should be eager to integrate Puerto Rico as a state; I think we're about 25 years away from the US being so much more comfortable with Hispanic presence that nativist resistance to it will be much smaller (and thus more extreme, and thus likely to discredit itself); and I'd project that the greater Hispanic presence in the US would make Puerto Ricans more enthusiastic about that as well. 

Cuba and Haiti are pretty unstable, and I suspect that they are destined to become US satellite states in the near future. If so, then certainly most or all of the rest of the Caribbean would be drawn in too, perhaps right down to Granada. 

And then... that northern coast of South America already has some countries where English is the main language. I don't imagine that Brazil or Argentina would be drawn in too much, but everything on the Caribbean Sea might well face north more readily than south. 

All of this is what I think would happen if economics were to determine state boundaries in the long term... and I suspect economics does so.


----------



## science

Almaviva said:


> Well, who doesn't want to be well treated? I've observed that I'm better treated when I handle my Italian passport to the hotel clerk as opposed to my American passport. Yep, people don't like us...
> 
> But I'm firmly convinced that in 30 years when the ruthless Chinese finish their quest for world dominance by, well, achieving it, people will regret the good old times when the Americans were on top.


Don't count out India.

30 years from now... we might be on China's side in their struggle with India!


----------



## Fsharpmajor

Almaviva said:


> Sorry sir, but I really doubt this statement of yours, that you've never heard *anybody* refer to the country as America in routine conversation during your stay in Baltimore. After all, Baltimore is the land of the perky Orioles, and I'm quite sure you've heard the expression 'America's pastime' when you lived there. Or else you weren't really paying attention. Think back carefully, and you may remember those occasions and realize that I'm right.


I swear I never have heard it, except in political speeches, and I grew up in a Canadian town which is on the border with North Dakota. I've been to North Dakota hundreds of times. But this was many years ago, and the usage may have changed between then and now.

An exception might be "America's favourite chocolate bar," or other advertising slogans, like you've suggested. I think I have probably seen or heard that. But I've never heard anyone say it to me in person. The first I ever heard it used in routine conversation was in the UK.

EDIT: It could be that Americans in the states which border Canada know that some Canadians don't like it, and so avoid saying it in the presence of Canadians.


----------



## sospiro

science said:


> If you want to call Americans something else, consider "Me-goo-geen." That's what Koreans call us. Doesn't sound flattering in English, but in Korean it literally means *"people from the beautiful country."*


 What a lovely translation


----------



## TresPicos

itywltmt said:


> In fact, it is sometimes a good thing that people don't think of us (Canadians) as _Americans_... It is *not *an urban legend that Americans travelling in Europe put a Meple Leaf on their luggage - I won't add more to that thought, or I'll need to run for the hills!


Clever... 

Like us Swedes saying we are Norwegians when we are in Denmark.



Argus said:


> It's not that you call football 'soccer', it's that you call your American handball game 'football'. Why not just call it gridiron and avoid any confusion?


I thought there was a term already.


----------



## science

Hmmmm... is it a violation of the terms of service to make fun of soccer? 

I'd just go ahead and do it, but I'm pretty sure the soccer fans would flop down like I'd broken half their bones...


----------



## Ukko

Fascinating dialog in this thread. Personally I 'call' myself a Vermonter. Doesn't signify when traveling, because of the US passport. If the 'natives' knew how ignorant our 'common people' have been kept about government policies and actions over the centuries, they might run a few test questions by the individual Vermonter or Iowan, to see just how misinformed he is. Texans, never mind.


----------



## itywltmt

Hilltroll72 said:


> Fascinating dialog in this thread. Personally I 'call' myself a Vermonter. Doesn't signify when traveling, because of the US passport. If the 'natives' knew how ignorant our 'common people' have been kept about government policies and actions over the centuries, they might run a few test questions by the individual Vermonter or Iowan, to see just how misinformed he is. Texans, never mind.


I guess most people wouldn't get it if you called yourself a Green Mountaineer...


----------



## science

psiwbatuaoti

pretty soon i won't be able to understand anything on the internet

edit: oh, that's the guy's name...


----------



## Aramis

|| America OOOO-OOOOO

America OOOOO-OOOOOO ||

AMERICA OOOOOOO-OOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## itywltmt

Timotheus said:


> **********************
> 
> Happy now itywltmt?


I don't know what to say...

How about, from us pea-soup eating frogs: _la pluie de vos injures n'atteint pas le parapluie de mon indifférence._


----------



## starthrower

Labels are for cans.


----------



## TresPicos

Timotheus said:


> ***************************


Gee. I wonder why you need those maple leaf stickers...


----------



## Argus

Almaviva said:


> That's because all the sports codes that evolved from the medieval game of football were so-called because they were played with a ball, on foot, as opposed to on horseback. So the full name of many of these codes has a qualifier before the word football, as in Association Football, American Football, Australian Football, and so forth. Rugby ended up adopting another name, and Gridiron is actually a name that is in existence around here and relatively frequently used, it just hasn't caught on as much as Football. I have no problem with the name Gridiron eventually catching on and substituting the name Football, and I believe nobody else here would have a problem with that either, but linguistic conventions take a while to change (sometimes, centuries). Meanwhile, other countries such as South Africa and Australia also use the word soccer when they refer to Association Football (and the Australians also use Australian Rules Football for a game that is mostly played with the hands) and again, I don't see anybody bugging them. You must confess that there is something about America that makes people pick on us, it's not really objective, otherwise they'd have to pick on those other countries that have similar linguistic conventions exactly the same way, and it just doesn't happen.


No one bugs Americans because they call it soccer. They bug Americans because they are often disparaging about football, calling it a kids game or for girls and 'wussies'. Which is quite funny because gridiron is like rugby in pads and helmets, plus America's other favourite sports, basketball and baseball are both similar to our actual girl sports of netball and rounders.

There is something really annoying about the American pronunciation of the word 'aluminium' though. Just why?


----------



## Almaviva

Argus said:


> No one bugs Americans because they call it soccer. They bug Americans because they are often disparaging about football, calling it a kids game or for girls and 'wussies'. Which is quite funny because gridiron is like rugby in pads and helmets, plus America's other favourite sports, basketball and baseball are both similar to our actual girl sports of netball and rounders.
> 
> There is something really annoying about the American pronunciation of the word 'aluminium' though. Just why?


 Well, I don't know, in my decades of Internet I've seen a lot of Europeans bugging Americans because we call it soccer. And the thing about "for girls and wussies" is countered by some Europeans' idea that American Football is a game for stupid brutish players who use padding. As a matter of fact, the padding is used because of the large number of players (about 45 to 60) who used to die annually before the padding and helmets were created, and the game is not stupid at all, it is rather complex and strategically-minded.

But my point is just to say that all is relative. As a matter of fact I love soccer, it's my second favorite sport, and in no way I think it is for girls and wussies. Soccer is growing in popularity in the United States and this distorted idea is less and less prevalent. We do dislike the theatrics and the flopping but I guess all sports fans dislike these things, and it's not like they don't exist in our sports (although they seem to be less prevalent in our traditional sports as compared to soccer - but like I said, they do exist - players are human beings and they *will* try to earn an advantage for their team if they can fool the refs and get away with it - most likely the lower frequency of faking injury and diving in our sports is more linked to the multiple cameras and multiple refs and video reviews than to any heightened sense of sportsmanship, unlike people here would like to believe - given the same discreet enforcement found in soccer, I'd be prepared to bet my house that our players would cheat a lot more). I believe that all soccer lovers in the world would like to see the diving eliminated, isn't it true?

As for aluminium and aluminum, there's humour and humor and similar words, I guess these are just different linguistic evolutions that will naturally occur when two peoples speaking initially the same language live thousands of miles apart.


----------



## graaf

Whoever is a part of any nation in all of Americas (from Canada to Chile) is an American. But when I say American (or in Serbian: Amerikanac), I usually think about people from US - it's just a matter of habit, and does not mean that Canadians and others are not Americans. And while doing so, I do understand that south of Rio Grande some people call themselves americano and they refer to US people as norteamericano, for obvious reasons. So, you're all Americans, but we're kinda used to refer to US people that way.

Someone mentioned Croatia vs Hrvatska. It's actually related and not as different as it seems - "Croate" is French attempt to pronounce Hrvat. Thus Hrvatska becomes Croatie, or Croatia in English, and similar in most other languages. Only adjacent nations call them the same (Serbs, Slovenes...) or similar (Hungarians).

But some nations are called very differently in different countries for historic reasons. One of the most obvious examples is Germany. They bordered with many nations in different parts of Europe, thus getting a lot of very different names. In English language they are Germans from the word "Germanic", although Anglo-Saxons are also Germanic peoples, French call them Allemands after a German historic tribe Alamanni adjacent to France, many Slavic nations call them Nemci/Niemcy/Nijemci, Germans call themselves Deutsch (close in origin with Dutch, and Amish, who are of German ancestry, speak Pennsylvania Dutch even today), Italians call them Tedeschi and those are probably not all of the names.


----------



## Almaviva

graaf said:


> Whoever is a part of any nation in all of Americas (from Canada to Chile) is an American. But when I say American (or in Serbian: Amerikanac), I usually think about people from US - it's just a matter of habit, and does not mean that Canadians and others are not Americans. And while doing so, *I do understand that south of Rio Grande some people call themselves americano *and they refer to US people as norteamericano, for obvious reasons. So, you're all Americans, but we're kinda used to refer to US people that way.


I sincerely doubt it. I've been to Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Panama, and I've never seen any locals referring to themselves as "Americanos." They all pretty much understood that "Americanos" referred to the people of the United States of America. I'm not saying it can't happen, and of course I haven't been to all those countries so maybe in Mexico for instance it's different, but what I'm saying is that while it may happen here and there, it's not current. People do understand that they are from the continent The Americas, but when they say "Americano" they're referring to us, not to themselves. Yes, they employ expressions such as "South American soccer" (Futebol sul-americano in Portuguese, for instance), but when they say that such and such is Americano, they're referring to a foreigner who is from the United States, and they don't usually say "I'm Americano." They say I'm Brazilian, I'm Argentinian, etc.



> Someone mentioned Croatia vs Hrvatska. It's actually related and not as different as it seems - "Croate" is French attempt to pronounce Hrvat. Thus Hrvatska becomes Croatie, or Croatia in English, and similar in most other languages. Only adjacent nations call them the same (Serbs, Slovenes...) or similar (Hungarians).


I defer to you on this, you must know better. But I didn't make it up, I got it from my Croatian friend, and it was recent, a couple of weeks ago, when I heard her talking on the phone in Croatian, and started asking questions about her language, and the name of the country came up, I said "why so different?" and she said "I have no idea, it has always puzzled me" - and explained to me the 7th century migration and the leader Hrvat.



> But some nations are called very differently in different countries for historic reasons. One of the most obvious examples is Germany. They bordered with many nations in different parts of Europe, thus getting a lot of very different names. In English language they are Germans from the word "Germanic", although Anglo-Saxons are also Germanic peoples, French call them Allemands after a German historic tribe Alamanni adjacent to France, many Slavic nations call them Nemci/Niemcy/Nijemci, Germans call themselves Deutsch (close in origin with Dutch, and Amish, who are of German ancestry, speak Pennsylvania Dutch even today), Italians call them Tedeschi and those are probably not all of the names.


Yes sure, I agree, that's why I got the example of Croatia. We call them Croatia, they call themselves Hrvastka, fine. I wouldn't try to question them for the way they call themselves. What I said is, you guys can call us whatever you want - call us United Statians if you want and that's just fine (although, a double standard since you don't do it for other countries that have in their full name these components about the kind of union), but we call ourselves Americans, and there is really no reason for putting us down as if we were ignoring the other peoples in the continent. They could have called themselves America as well, if they wanted to. They didn't. They called themselves Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Canada, Peru, etc.

Another example - Nobody says United Kingdomians. The country is called United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and people call them British or call them by the home nation (English, Scottish, etc).

So, what is exactly wrong with us calling ourselves Americans, pray tell?


----------



## Lenfer

The entire *New World* which makes up a large part of the *Westeren-Hemesphre* can be called the *Americas*. There is only one country of the many that make up the *Americas* that has *America* in it's name and that is the *United States of America*. It was the people of the original 13 states that started calling themselves *American * in the first place to annoy the *British * before they finally gave them the old heave-ho.

I would try not to let it bother you my dear *Itywltmt* as people are quite correct when they refer to someone from the states as *American*.


----------



## graaf

> I sincerely doubt it. I've been to Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia, and Panama, and I've never seen any locals referring to themselves as "Americanos."


I never visited any of those, I was just saying what I've heard by some US Americans, about usage of terms Americanos and Norteamericanos. Frankly, I would expect that you are more reliable source, God knows how they've come up with that.


> I defer to you on this, you must know better. But I didn't make it up, I got it from my Croatian friend, and it was recent, a couple of weeks ago, when I heard her talking on the phone in Croatian, and started asking questions about her language, and the name of the country came up, I said "why so different?" and she said "I have no idea, it has always puzzled me" - and explained to me the 7th century migration and the leader Hrvat.


Not saying for a second that you made it up - just giving information how Hrvatska became Croatia. Also, in Europe, the legend of leader of the same name as the nation is commonplace in many myths about formation of a nation. Croats have it, so do Serbs, Greeks (Hellen is founder of Greeks, thus adjective Hellenic, and the guy was grandson of Prometheus - so there goes historic value of it  ), Polish, Czech and Russian nations are descendants of forefathers Lech (Poland = Lechia), Čech, and Rus (all 3 of them as historic as Hellen  ) and so on...

What can I say, I like history so I shared some of it with you...

Best regards,
graaf


----------



## Almaviva

graaf said:


> I never visited any of those, I was just saying what I've heard by some US Americans, about usage of terms Americanos and Norteamericanos. Frankly, I would expect that you are more reliable source, God knows how they've come up with that.
> 
> Not saying for a second that you made it up - just giving information how Hrvatska became Croatia. Also, in Europe, the legend of leader of the same name as the nation is commonplace in many myths about formation of a nation. Croats have it, so do Serbs, Greeks (Hellen is founder of Greeks, thus adjective Hellenic, and the guy was grandson of Prometheus - so there goes historic value of it  ), Polish, Czech and Russian nations are descendants of forefathers Lech (Poland = Lechia), Čech, and Rus (all 3 of them as historic as Hellen  ) and so on...
> 
> What can I say, I like history so I shared some of it with you...
> 
> Best regards,
> graaf


Very interesting. History is fascinating.


----------



## Sid James

Yep, people from the United States of America are what we commonly think of/call Americans. Eg. when someone says an American composer, I immidiately think eg. Gershwin, not Ginastera.

But of course there are people within the USA who see themselves as more "loyal" to their state, not the republic as a whole generally. I understand there are very strong successionist movements, have been for a long time, in places like Texas. I think some of these people who feel more loyal to Texas than the USA fly the flag of Texas on their houses and cars (correct?). Then there's the Canadian state of Quebec, which I think has had three referendums since about 1945 asking whether they want to secede. The result was "no," the majority wanted to stay as part of Canada as a whole.

So it's maybe only people like some Texans or Quebecans who don't like being seen as part of their respective countries, I'd hazard a guess that for the rest of the people in these (eg. the majority of their populations)countries, we can just call them "American," or "Canadian" or whatever without fear nor favour...


----------



## opus55

science said:


> I agree with all of Alma's points.
> 
> But I'd add one more: If other people want to call us something else, they're welcome to it. I'm still not comfortable saying "Myanmar" because it seems like a concession to the government there; and I won't be switching from "Korea" to "Han-****" or from China to "Jung-guo" in the near future. We've all been talking about Me_ksi_co rather than Me-_hee_-co, on roughly the same principle.
> 
> If you want to call Americans something else, consider "Me-goo-geen." That's what Koreans call us. Doesn't sound flattering in English, but in Korean it literally means "people from the beautiful country."


"Me-goo-geen" officially, but some other variations are used in street and I hope you don't hear them too often if you are American.


----------



## Aksel

TresPicos said:


> Clever...
> 
> Like us Swedes saying we are Norwegians when we are in Denmark.


You do? How very nice. I didn't know the Swedes didn't have an equivalent of "Det er dejligt at være norsk i Danmark"


----------



## Andy Loochazee

As a Brit, I have lived and worked in the States on two occasions over the past 15 years, (five years in total) so I'm speaking from quite a bit of experience. Whilst there, although I was based in two different centres, I travelled over many parts of the country.

I generally found that many American citizens appear to have a problem with their cultural identity. If you ask them where they're from, they invariably talk about their parents' or grandparents' country. Although they now preach racial equality, the truth is they have a terrible record on racial integration. There is also only a very immature cultural history. Outside the big cities, there's not a lot going on. 

By way of compensation, this lack of racial and cultural identity appears to have led to the growth of some strange-looking behaviour (from an outsider's viewpoint) like a lot of flag-waving and emphasis on free speech. You might think that as a Brit we'd be used to pomp and ceremony, but the kind you get in the States is of a different type and order. I didn't much care for it.

My over-riding and abiding recollection of the States is just how religious it is compared with the UK. There is a good deal of Christian religious fundamentalism, where it's all or nothing. Again, we're not used to that in the UK. 

Next to that, I was astonished to find out just how talkative the average American is compared with a typical British counterpart. They just talk and talk and talk. Go into a typical church, for example, and before the service starts you'll probably have to listen to about 2-3 lay people standing up shouting the odds about their role in the organisation of some aspect of the running of the church: events manager, religious studies co-ordinator, blah blah. It's much the same everywhere you go, and it gets you down very quickly if you aren't used to. 

When I got back to the UK after my second time, I told my bosses that I wouldn't welcome another assignment at any future stage. I have some family out there, but still don't fancy going back. Thank goodness for Skype.


----------



## itywltmt

Thanks to all of you who took part in this discussion, and especially to those who took it for what it was - a good-natured "fun" discussion. I understand one of the thread participants got a "red card" over one of the comments, and that's too bad...

The final words on the subject, before I begin my workday, are from "Joe"





I leave America to the Americans, and look forward to Hockey season - starting in October.

Cheers to all of you and have a great week!


----------



## science

opus55 said:


> "Me-goo-geen" officially, but some other variations are used in street and I hope you don't hear them too often if you are American.


Never had a problem like that.


----------



## Guest

Andy Loochazee said:


> I generally found that many American citizens appear to have a problem with their cultural identity. If you ask them where they're from, they invariably talk about their parents' or grandparents' country. Although they now preach racial equality, the truth is they have a terrible record on racial integration. There is also only a very immature cultural history. Outside the big cities, there's not a lot going on.


Hmm, I'm curious where you were, because I have never had that kind of experience. If you ask me where I am from, I will tell you California, because that is where I was born and raised. I think that is what most people assume you are asking when you ask them where they are from. I have never asked a person where they are from, and they told me the land of their ancestors. I never tell people, well, my ancestors came from Germany and England. They would likely look at me like I was a moron, and say, no, what state are you from?
As for racial integration, I think it is rather silly to single out the USA for this criticism. As I understand it, there is quite a bit of trouble in the UK and France with the poor integration of new racial groups, particularly with young unemployed Muslim men.



> By way of compensation, this lack of racial and cultural identity appears to have led to the growth of some strange-looking behaviour (from an outsider's viewpoint) like a lot of flag-waving and emphasis on free speech. You might think that as a Brit we'd be used to pomp and ceremony, but the kind you get in the States is of a different type and order. I didn't much care for it.


 So wait, the emphasis on free speech didn't appeal to you? Yeah, well, then you might not feel so comfortable over here, in a country with free speech as one of its founding principles. If that is a significant concern of people about Americans, I'd say we're doing quite well. As for flag-waving - yes, we do have a lot of national pride. Not too long ago, so did the UK.


----------



## kv466

*good to know some 'nice people' won't be coming back


----------



## TresPicos

Aksel said:


> You do? How very nice. I didn't know the Swedes didn't have an equivalent of "Det er dejligt at være norsk i Danmark"


Like this, you mean? http://satwcomic.com/norway-in-denmark

I guess we are, sort of, the "Americans" among the Nordic countries...


----------



## Aksel

TresPicos said:


> Like this, you mean? http://satwcomic.com/norway-in-denmark
> 
> I guess we are, sort of, the "Americans" among the Nordic countries...


Something like that, yes. Although I've never really thought of Swedes as particularly American. You've always been so hip and swanky, at least in the big cities.


----------



## TresPicos

Aksel said:


> Something like that, yes. Although I've never really thought of Swedes as particularly American. You've always been so hip and swanky, at least in the big cities.


I was thinking more in terms of being the biggest country and behaving like it. 

As an individual, I'm hip, of course...


----------



## Aksel

TresPicos said:


> I was thinking more in terms of being the biggest country and behaving like it.
> 
> As an individual, I'm hip, of course...


I've always thought that Denmark behaved like the biggest country, really, but I do see your point.


----------



## Ukko

I read in some non-fiction book on _some_ subject [my mind soaks up data like a sponge, and then leaks most of it out again] that in the several decades (probably it was longer) around 1000A.D., Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norwegians and Swedes all spoke languages that were mutually easily understood.

How that is relevant here I really don't know, but anyway...


----------



## Lenfer

itywltmt said:


> Thanks to all of you who took part in this discussion, and especially to those who took it for what it was - a good-natured "fun" discussion. I understand one of the thread participants got a "red card" over one of the comments, and that's too bad...
> 
> The final words on the subject, before I begin my workday, are from "Joe"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I leave America to the Americans, and look forward to Hockey season - starting in October.
> 
> Cheers to all of you and have a great week!


What is a red card?  I always enjoy your posts *Itywltmt*. :cheers:

Just watched your video, basketball is *Canadian * to I think. I don't like basketball but it should have been on *Joe's* list.


----------



## Almaviva

Aksel said:


> Something like that, yes. Although I've never really thought of Swedes as particularly American. You've always been so hip and swanky, at least in the big cities.


Does this mean that we Americans are never hip and swanky?


----------



## Aksel

Hilltroll72 said:


> I read in some non-fiction book on _some_ subject [my mind soaks up data like a sponge, and then leaks most of it out again] that in the several decades (probably it was longer) around 1000A.D., Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norwegians and Swedes all spoke languages that were mutually easily understood.
> 
> How that is relevant here I really don't know, but anyway...


True. Saxon is very similar to old Norse.


----------



## Aksel

Almaviva said:


> Does this mean that we Americans are never hip and swanky?


Yes. It does. At least not as hip and swanky as we perceive the Swedes.


----------



## Argus

Almaviva said:


> But my point is just to say that all is relative. As a matter of fact I love soccer, it's my second favorite sport, and in no way I think it is for girls and wussies. Soccer is growing in popularity in the United States and this distorted idea is less and less prevalent. We do dislike the theatrics and the flopping but I guess all sports fans dislike these things, and it's not like they don't exist in our sports (although they seem to be less prevalent in our traditional sports as compared to soccer - but like I said, they do exist - players are human beings and they *will* try to earn an advantage for their team if they can fool the refs and get away with it - most likely the lower frequency of faking injury and diving in our sports is more linked to the multiple cameras and multiple refs and video reviews than to any heightened sense of sportsmanship, unlike people here would like to believe - given the same discreet enforcement found in soccer, I'd be prepared to bet my house that our players would cheat a lot more). I believe that all soccer lovers in the world would like to see the diving eliminated, isn't it true?


Most fans want video technology to help the referees make the right decisions but Blatter/FIFA won't budge on the subject. As for diving, in Italy it's been part of the game for so long the fans appreciate skillful diving as much as good play, over here it's tolerated but disliked (players like Ronaldo or Drogba got a lot of stick from the crowds)..

Also, two of SKY's main football programmes use 'soccer' in the title, Soccer Saturday and Soccer AM, and I don't think anyone's bothered by it.


----------



## Almaviva

Andy Loochazee said:


> I generally found that many American citizens appear to have a problem with their cultural identity. If you ask them where they're from, they invariably talk about their parents' or grandparents' country.


Huh. I've never heard anything remotely like this around here, except when addressing naturalized Americans. Invariably, you say? I think probably 99% of people here would answer this question by mentioning the state where they were born.[/quote]


> Although they now preach racial equality, the truth is they have a terrible record on racial integration.


Yep. Like England, France, Germany, Austria, Italy, Japan...


> There is also only a very immature cultural history. Outside the big cities, there's not a lot going on.


This seems to be the rule in most countries. Still, in my smallish state with only a couple of large cities, we have six opera companies, one of them in a city of 75,000 inhabitants.


> By way of compensation, this lack of racial and cultural identity appears to have led to the growth of some strange-looking behaviour (from an outsider's viewpoint) like a lot of flag-waving and emphasis on free speech.


Thankfully. Yep, we like free speech.


> You might think that as a Brit we'd be used to pomp and ceremony, but the kind you get in the States is of a different type and order. I didn't much care for it.


Good for you. I don't care much for all that Monarchy thing either.


> My over-riding and abiding recollection of the States is just how religious it is compared with the UK. There is a good deal of Christian religious fundamentalism, where it's all or nothing. Again, we're not used to that in the UK.


I had understood by your previous posts that you're a rather religious person. I'm not, I'm an atheist. Go figure.


> Next to that, I was astonished to find out just how talkative the average American is compared with a typical British counterpart. They just talk and talk and talk. Go into a typical church, for example, and before the service starts you'll probably have to listen to about 2-3 lay people standing up shouting the odds about their role in the organisation of some aspect of the running of the church: events manager, religious studies co-ordinator, blah blah. It's much the same everywhere you go, and it gets you down very quickly if you aren't used to.


Yep, we're lively people. I'm used to it, and prefer it this way.


> When I got back to the UK after my second time, I told my bosses that I wouldn't welcome another assignment at any future stage. I have some family out there, but still don't fancy going back. Thank goodness for Skype.


Sure. Whatever you fancy. My best advice to you: stay away. Don't come here.


----------



## Guest

Hilltroll72 said:


> I read in some non-fiction book on _some_ subject [my mind soaks up data like a sponge, and then leaks most of it out again] that in the several decades (probably it was longer) around 1000A.D., Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norwegians and Swedes all spoke languages that were mutually easily understood.
> 
> How that is relevant here I really don't know, but anyway...


I don't know how separated they were at that point. I can say that, while learning German, I encountered Dutch speakers, and there were some things that were intelligible. I also picked up some of the Swiss German dialects which have some resemblance to older Germanic dialects (with a healthy mixture of some French and Italian for good measure) and it also seemed to have some similarities. So given that there could have still been a lot of cross-mingling of those groups at that time, I could believe that they were still relatively understandable to one another.


----------



## Aksel

DrMike said:


> I don't know how separated they were at that point. I can say that, while learning German, I encountered Dutch speakers, and there were some things that were intelligible. I also picked up some of the Swiss German dialects which have some resemblance to older Germanic dialects (with a healthy mixture of some French and Italian for good measure) and it also seemed to have some similarities. So given that there could have still been a lot of cross-mingling of those groups at that time, I could believe that they were still relatively understandable to one another.


I would think that there were a lot of Danes in Germany, and there were many Norwegians and Danes in England, so there would have been mingling aplenty, I think.


----------



## itywltmt

Lenfer said:


> What is a red card?  I always enjoy your posts *Itywltmt*. :cheers:
> 
> Just watched your video, basketball is *Canadian * to I think. I don't like basketball but it should have been on *Joe's* list.


A red card is given out to people who behave badly (in Soccer. Er, I meant Football)

Basketball was indeed invented by John Naismith, whio is Canadian but was working at a YMCA in Springfiled Mass (I believe). So, it was invented by a Canadian, but in America.

Hockey, on the other hand, was first played in an organized fashion (depending on who you believe) in Windsor NS or in a rink in Montreal, based on rugby rules with sticks on ice. No wonder the first ever hockey game ended in a brawl! (I'm not joking, a tradition that lives on to this day. Brawling at hockey games, that is)


----------



## Guest

itywltmt said:


> A red card is given out to people who behave badly (in Soccer. Er, I meant Football)
> 
> Basketball was indeed invented by John Naismith, whio is Canadian but was working at a YMCA in Springfiled Mass (I believe). So, it was invented by a Canadian, but in America.
> 
> Hockey, on the other hand, was first played in an organized fashion (depending on who you believe) in Windsor NS or in a rink in Montreal,* based on rugby rules with sticks on ice*. No wonder the first ever hockey game ended in a brawl! (I'm not joking, a tradition that lives on to this day. Brawling at hockey games, that is)


Now THAT is a game I'd love to see!


----------



## itywltmt

ERRATA: the man who invented B'Ball was James A. Naismith, not John.

The first game held in Montreal was organized by the Montreal Rugby Union (or something like that), and they saw Hockey as a way to keep their players in shape during the winter. The problem was the rink was also booked by the Montreal Skating Club (or something like that). When the Skaters got upset over not getting their ice time, the fists started flying.

So, a long-standing tradition of hockey and fighting was born, the same day as organised hockey.

Oops, I meant, "Ice" hockey.


----------



## Almaviva

Andy Loochazee said:


> There is also only a very immature cultural history. Outside the big cities, there's not a lot going on.


 Let's put this statement to the test. Since our site is Talk Classical, let's approach it from the standpoint of classical music. Opera may be a good way to gauge cultural activity, since many small cities have string ensembles, chamber orchestras, even symphonic orchestras, but to put together an opera company, the community needs some robust sponsorship and patronage since the complexity is at a much higher level - not only an orchestra is required, but also theatrical resources, singers, etc.

The current issue of Opera News has the customary _The Year in Opera_ feature for this time of the year, that lists as many opera performances around the world (from companies big and small, national and regional, all the way from Alaska to Japan) as they can, as long as the season schedules are available to the magazine by press time.

So let's see how many operas in complete staged performances they've listed for the United Kingdom and the United States.

UK - Population, mid-2010 estimate: 62,262,000. Number of operas to be staged in the 2011/2012 season = 50
USA - Population, 2010 census: 308,745,538. Number of operas to be staged in the 2011/2012 season = 359

UK average: one staged opera for each 1,245,240 inhabitants
USA average: one staged opera for each 860,015 inhabitants

Yes, the UK figures do include opera companies from the other home nations, not just from England. And yes, they do include the various Opera North locations, not just the usual suspects (ENO, ROH, etc).

And no, there aren't just 359 operas being staged in the USA this year, since at least 6 companies did not send their schedules by press time, and I know of at least two opera companies that weren't even listed. So if by any chance the UK list is not complete, well, the USA list is not complete either.

Huh, go figure, it looks like the USA stages more operas per inhabitant than the UK.

So, only the major cities like NYC, LA, Chicago, etc, have opera cultural activity, right? Lets put this to the test as well.

US cities with opera companies listed by The Year in Opera that are presenting each several fully staged operas this season:

Mobile, Alabama
Birmingham, Alabama
Anchorage, Alaska
Phoenix (2 companies), Arizona
Long Beach, California
Los Angeles, California
San Diego (2 companies), California
San Jose, California
Santa Barbara, California
Sacramento, California
Palo Alto, California
Central City, Colorado
Denver, Colorado
Sate of Connecticut, various alternating locations
Wilmington, Delaware
Washington, DC (3 companies)
Atlanta, Georgia
Honolulu, Hawaii
Boise, Idaho
Chicago (2 companies), Illinois
Bloomington, Indiana
Indianapolis, Indiana
Wichita, Kansas
Louisville, Kentucky
New Orleans, Louisiana
Shreveport, Louisiana
Boston (2 companies), Massachusetts
Baltimore (2 companies), Maryland
Detroit, Michigan
Grand Rapids, Michigan
St. Paul, Minnesota
Jackson, Mississippi
Kansas City, Missouri
St. Louis, Missouri
Omaha, Nebraska
Reno, Nevada
Englewood, New Jersey
State of New Jersey, various alternating locations (2 more companies)
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Santa Fe, New Mexico
New York City (11 companies), New York (wow, one city, 11 opera companies!!!)
Cooperstown, New York
Rochester, New York
North Tonawanda, New York
Syracuse, New York
Yorktown Heights, New York
Binghamton, New York
Asheville, North Carolina
Greensboro, North Carolina
Raleigh (2 companies), North Carolina 
Charlotte, North Carolina
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
Cincinnatti (2 companies), Ohio
Dayton, Ohio
Oberlin, Ohio
Cleveland, Ohio
Columbus, Ohio
Youngstown, Ohio
Toledo, Ohio
Tulsa, Oklahoma
Eugene, Oregon
Portland, Oregon
Philadelphia (3 companies), Pennsylvania
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Knoxville, Tennessee
Nashville, Tennessee
Memphis, Tennessee
Amarillo, Texas
Austin, Texas
Dallas, Texas
Forth Worth, Texas
Houston (2 companies), Texas
San Antonio, Texas
Norfolk, Virginia
Richmond, Virginia
Fairfax, Virginia
Roanoke, Virginia
Seattle, Washington
Tacoma, Washington
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Madison, Wisconsin

Huh, go figure. Not only the major cities, huh?

My town has about 50,000 inhabitants.
We enjoy:
2 complete local symphonic orchestras (one adult, one youth)
2 local theater companies
Visiting stagings of operas from the nearby opera company in the capital city (some 30 miles away, and visiting ballet from the capital city as well)
2 major concert halls
2 museums
1 large public library
Several venues for live music
1 annual dance festival
1 annual short films festival

I'm not talking metropolitan region, here. If I were to count the neighboring cities, it would be a lot more than this. I'm just counting the really LOCAL resources.

Our smaller concert hall has regular performances from the local symphony and visiting chamber orchestras, ensembles, voice recitals, etc.

In our larger concert hall, I've attended in the last two years:

The New York Philharmonic with maestro Lorin Maazel in one of his last performances with it
The Orchestra of the Mariinsky Theater of St. Petersburg with maestro Gergiev
The St. Peterburg Philharmonic Orchestra with maestro Termikanov
The London Philharmonic Orchestra with maestro Jurowski
The Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra
Wynton Marsalis jazz quintet
The Ballet Bolshoi from Moscow
National Ballet of China
Yo-Yo Ma and his quartet
Anne-Sophie Mutter, violin/piano 
Anne-Sophie von Otter in recital
Lang Lang (yeah, I know, not that good)
Various modern dance performances with groups from around the world
Plays by theater companies from Russia, Argentina, and Poland
Operas from the visiting company from the capital city
World Music shows with artists from various countries such as Spain (Flamenco), Brazil (Caetano Veloso, Gilberto Gil), Portugal (Marisa), others

Here is what is in the program for this season, just for the larger concert hall (just a few highlights, out of 34 different performances):

Orchestre Révolutionaire et Romantique with Sir Eliot Gardiner
Deutsche Kammerphilarmonie Bremen
Dance Theater of Taiwan
Gate Theater from Dublin with two plays by Samuel Beckett
Overtone Quartet with Dave Holland
Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater
Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra and Choir
Ballet Preljocaj from Paris, France
Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra 
Göteborg Ballet from Sweden

You, sir, are misinformed about cultural activity in America.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Any Americans here care to recommend the pancakes at ihop restaurants?


----------



## Almaviva

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Any Americans here care to recommend the pancakes at ihop restaurants?


 I can recommend this:

http://www.alinea-restaurant.com/

Don't miss the cuisine gallery. Click on the bar below the pictures to navigate to the next ones.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Almaviva said:


> I can recommend this:
> 
> http://www.alinea-restaurant.com/
> 
> Don't miss the cuisine gallery. Click on the bar below the pictures to navigate to the next ones.


Yes, that looks lovely as well as delicious. We have these "artistic" epicurean restaurants, too.


----------



## Almaviva

Now, seriously, if you weren't asking sarcastically.
IHOP *can* be good, but it depends a lot on the staff at a given local franchise. I've had good pancakes there (and omelets), *and* bad ones.


----------



## science

I've never had bad food from an IHOP. 

But I rarely go to IHOP, because I am a diner man.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

No, I was curious about some of these American franchise restaurants. America is well known for its range of franchise "family" restaurants and would be interesting to hear what American folks here think. IHOP pancakes do look temptingly delicious at first glance!


----------



## Sid James

Regarding earlier talk of stereotypes of American tourists, THIS much hackneyed image is what comes to my mind immediately, though I must admit that I've probably never seen one of this "species" in real life...


----------



## science

Someone's gonna have to explain what's wrong with that. That's how I dress for work.


----------



## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Any Americans here care to recommend the pancakes at ihop restaurants?


Forget IHOP - the Original Pancake House in Birmingham, Alabama. And according to Alma's list, you can go get some great pancakes, and then go take in an opera!


----------



## Ukko

science said:


> Someone's gonna have to explain what's wrong with that. That's how I dress for work.


If I'm going to wear socks with sandals, I have to find the non-holey pair.


----------



## Ukko

DrMike said:


> Forget IHOP - the Original Pancake House in Birmingham, Alabama. And according to Alma's list, you can go get some great pancakes, and then go take in an opera!


[Irrelevant aside] My sister-in-law makes excellent pancakes. The nearest opera house is ~15 miles away, but the events are mostly not opera. (This 'culture' word seems to be misused a lot in social applications - in medicine it's better defined.)


----------



## Argus

Almaviva said:


> Huh, go figure, it looks like the USA stages more operas per inhabitant than the UK.


*Swells with national pride*


----------



## hawk

Need I say more?????? For the best and I do mean the best pancakes try this mix. Just add water!I like them thin (add extra water) with fresh squeezed maple syrup!!!


----------



## Almaviva

Argus said:


> *Swells with national pride*


Given how you love opera, Argus, you should move down here.:devil:
You know, I didn't do the same analysis for rock bands because it's not my thing, but chances are we'd beat you guys on that too.


----------



## Sid James

science said:


> Someone's gonna have to explain what's wrong with that. That's how I dress for work.


:lol:

Well, I grant you, a Hawaiian shirt is far more interesting than a boring suit!...


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

DrMike said:


> Forget IHOP - the Original Pancake House in Birmingham, Alabama. And according to Alma's list, you can go get some great pancakes, and then go take in an opera!


Eating hot pancakes while attending The Metropolitan Opera would be beyond description ... but that ain't going to happen.  :lol:


----------



## Almaviva

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Eating hot pancakes while attending The Metropolitan Opera would be beyond description ... but that ain't going to happen.  :lol:


 The Met does have a restaurant in the premises. You can eat your appetizer, see the first act, eat your entree, see the second act, eat your dessert, go back for the third act. Seriously. They keep it all timed for you. Or you can eat your entire meal before the performance, whatever you want.


----------



## HarpsichordConcerto

Almaviva said:


> The Met does have a restaurant in the premises. You can eat your appetizer, see the first act, eat your entree, see the second act, eat your desert, go back for the third act. Seriously. They keep it all timed for you. Or you can eat your entire meal before the performance, whatever you want.


What I meant was eating pancakes in the opera theatre simultaneously.


----------



## CountessAdele

You're right on the money about religion here, theres a saying where I live: Churches and banks come in threes. And it's true, at least in my city. I can also give you the talkative comment, yes we're a chatty bunch . However, the culutral identity remark is a bit off. 

If asked where their from Americans will most likely tell what state they grew up in. Maybe if you asked specifically about ancesytry then they'll start on the family tree. Our cultural identity is what it is, "America is a melting pot" as my old history teacher used to say. We appreciate, and celebrate this and since there are so many "flavors" or "ingredients" there is an abundance of flag waving as you put it; but it's been my experiance that all these alligences are secondary to that of the country.

Ahem, but I digress.


----------



## CountessAdele

Really? I had no idea. I'm going to the Met for the first time in a few months to see my first ever live opera!!! Is there anything I should know?


----------



## CountessAdele

Sid James said:


> Regarding earlier talk of stereotypes of American tourists, THIS much hackneyed image is what comes to my mind immediately, though I must admit that I've probably never seen one of this "species" in real life...


Haha, yes the "species" exists, my father is one of them! XD I think he looks adorable!


----------



## Almaviva

CountessAdele said:


> Really? I had no idea. I'm going to the Met for the first time in a few months to see my first ever live opera!!! Is there anything I should know?


 Welcome to the forum, and enjoy your experience at the Met! Let us know your impressions. What are you going to see?
The Met's Grand Tier Restaurant is a good way to enjoy the diner/opera combo but you must be aware that it is quite expensive and for the same price you can have better food in other restaurants in town.
Don't forget to visit the Met Opera Shop, on the right side of the building. It's wonderful, full of souvenirs, books about opera, and DVDs.
What else is there to say? The Met has an underground parking lot, but it is also very convenient by subway since one of the stations of the 1 line (66th street) opens directly into the Met.
Feel free to ask more questions.


----------



## Polednice

CountessAdele said:


> Our cultural identity is what it is, "America is a melting pot" as my old history teacher used to say. We appreciate, and celebrate this


Ahhh, hence the socially ingrained racism.


----------



## Guest

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> What I meant was eating pancakes in the opera theatre simultaneously.


Nah, they only let Anna do that.


----------



## Amfibius

Lenfer said:


> The entire *New World* which makes up a large part of the *Westeren-Hemesphre* can be called the *Americas*.


I completely and utterly disagree with you. The most important country in the new world is *Australia*, followed by (in a distant second) ... America.

(OK OK a little bit tongue in cheek for the humour impaired!  )


----------



## Chris

Here is a true to life American:


----------



## CountessAdele

Almaviva said:


> Welcome to the forum, and enjoy your experience at the Met! Let us know your impressions. What are you going to see?


Thank you, my mom and I are going and we're so excited (it'll be her first opera too)! We'll be seeing Diana Damrau in The Barber of Seville. Oh, don't worry you'll know my impressions! I'll probably be gushing about the whole trip, feel free to tell me to shut it. In fact I'm almost sure you'll have to! 

I'll definatly visit the shop, but not the resteraunt, oh well. And thank you, I don have one more question, and it's probably a silly one, but how long is the break between acts?


----------



## Almaviva

CountessAdele said:


> Thank you, my mom and I are going and we're so excited (it'll be her first opera too)! We'll be seeing Diana Damrau in The Barber of Seville. Oh, don't worry you'll know my impressions! I'll probably be gushing about the whole trip, feel free to tell me to shut it. In fact I'm almost sure you'll have to!
> 
> I'll definatly visit the shop, but not the resteraunt, oh well. And thank you, I don have one more question, and it's probably a silly one, but how long is the break between acts?


This depends on the opera and the necessary scenario changes, and also, whether or not it's being filmed for television. The average is probably some 30 minutes.


----------



## CountessAdele

Almaviva said:


> This depends on the opera and the necessary scenario changes, and also, whether or not it's being filmed for television. The average is probably some 30 minutes.


Hmm, any suggestions for places close by to go to during those breaks? We're unfamiliar with the area. :/


----------



## science

Chris said:


> Here is a true to life American:


I haven't had a vacation since May 2009, but I'll take 2 weeks in September - and I feel guilty about them.


----------



## Almaviva

CountessAdele said:


> Hmm, any suggestions for places close by to go to during those breaks? We're unfamiliar with the area. :/


Oh I don't think you should (or even could) go out of the building during the breaks. By the time you'd get out (it's a pretty huge building) it would be time to get in again. I've never tried to leave the Met during intermission so I don't even know if they allow you out and in once your ticket gets validated to get in. There are also vending points inside the building where you can get a cup of champagne, snacks.

Before or after, though, there are plenty of nice places in that neighborhood. The big Time Warner center on Columbus Circus (a couple of blocks away, walking South from the Lincoln Center on Broadway) is nice with plenty of fancy boutiques, casual eateries (and fancy eateries), etc. Central Park is two blocks away to the East. On Broadway there are other nice eateries right in front of Lincoln Center. Just hanging on around the main water fountain provides good people watching. It's a rather lively area.


----------

