# Keyboard vs. piano



## becky

I grew up with a piano, it was my grandmother's and she gave it to my mom. It was a great way to start my music career  I started banging on it when I was very little. 

I was wondering if a good quality electric keyboard would make a good substitute for a piano for kids. I don't think I'll be able to afford a piano for my home for a quite a while, unless someone is trying to get rid of an old upright. But I've seen some pretty nice keyboards that have the same size keys as pianos that are way more in my budget. I want my kids to grow up with music like I did, but I'm not ready to fork out the cash for a piano! 

Of course, if a child eventually really takes to the piano, I'll need to get one. I was just thinking in terms of a starter instrument!


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## Harvey

How old are your kids?

It is fine to start on a digital piano. There are some that are superior to real pianos. If the kids advance fast though, you'll have to buy a piano soon.

Edit: Second Violin with 10 posts? I thought it would be something like "Page Turner" after Orchestra n00b.


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## becky

Actually, my daughter is 1, so I have a bit of time to worry about it. We also plan on having more. I just was looking at pianos and nice keyboards (may have even been called electric pianos) and realizing that we don't have one and I always had one around when I was growing up! I want the same for my kids. 

I think I'll hit 1st violin at 50 posts. I can't wait because I have a 1st violin personality!


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## baroque flute

I like electronic keyboards best because of how many voices there are and how you can play MIDI, and digitally record them without a studio. But then I'm a composer, and I compose mainly for orchestra. If I were a pianist who played concertos I think I might feel differently, but I'm not that great at performing. My keyboard has 61 keys, like most. My pet peeve, though is the Casio brand of keyboard. They may be fine for a beginner but I personally just hate them! MIne is a good Yamaha. There may be more realistic sounding ones but this is pretty good and is the best I know of. (If someone knew of a REALLY good one that beats Yamaha I would be ineterested to hear, though.)


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## Daniel

I have also a composing electric piano and a keyboard mostly for midi... also a yamaha, baroque is quite right, yamaha has much better sounding, especially in same price categories.


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## Harvey

I have a 73-key Casio only used to input MIDI into my computer (via SB Extigy).
I have to say, that it's hell to play on it.

I have a Samick WSU-131MD upright. It sounds...decent to most people (to me it sounds horrible) and has partial sostenuto. Got it for ~~6000USD.


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## baroque flute

Mine is a Yamaha PSR-85. It was one of the best at the time I got it, but that was nine years ago!


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## Tim

I have a Yamaha YDP-223 digital piano. It is fantastic to learn and practice on. The sound is very real. The pedaling is realistic. It has concert grand hammer action. It looks like a piano (can be a piece of furniture) but can be lifted by two 10 year-olds. The cost is around $1500 US. For the money, I can't think of a better value. Obviously, you never have to tune it which helps when beginning to learn. It has a built in metronome, 50 classical masterpieces sampled in that you can slow the tempo to help learn(of all degrees of difficulty), It has 64 note polyphony, a few different sounds, built-in speakers. You can turn the volume down to practice at night or use headphones. When you get to a certain level of proficiency you will need to get the real thing, but for now, a digital piano is a great compromise to the real thing IMHO.

Hope this helps.--Tim


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## Daniel

My composing piano is also by Yamaha (CLP 990) kinda similiar to yours concerning technique.


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## 009

yeah, sure. A keyboard is okay, so long as the proper things are being taught and absorbed, and most importantly, as in ALL music lessons...let yr kids have a good time! 
But be sure to get a piano ( u know, touch and hearing blah blah blah  ).....when they've started on an exam/formal mode of learning.


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## MrWaltz

The only good thing about electronic keyboard is the price and maybe portable. Electronic keyboard's keys are too soft and you don't even have to apply a bit force to make it sound. Thus, making your son/daughter's finger muscles not that strong. Your child's finger may end up slow and weak. Also you cant' make soft, loud, cresendo, etc. on an electric keyboard. Your child will be a boring player if he/she practice on an electriconic keyboard daily. I will not reccomend it to a begginner or even a proffesional pianist. Use a real piano.


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## rescon

Well, based on my experience, I don't think a keyboard would be a great substitute for the piano, especially for younger kids who may eventually take up piano. Here's why.

The first instrument I got was a small keyboard when I was 6, which I just loved. I learned to play my first songs on it, and eventually, my parents thought me well enough to enroll me in piano lessons. HOWEVER, because I had become so used to the keyboard, my wrist posture was *horrible*. Instead of holding my wrist upright, I habitually dropped them (like that on a computer keyboard). It took me several years and many pennies (by putting a penny on the back of my wrist when I practiced) to correct this problem. 
Also, because the keys on the keyboard were so small, I didn't develop necessary elasticity between my fingers to reach the keys on an actual piano. Therefore, I had to practice a few more years before I adapted to the piano.
So, the question becomes now, would you want your child to continue on, after the initial excitement with the keyboard, to piano lessons? If so, I do *not *recommend buying a keyboard first because there are so many problems derived from keyboard practice alone.
My 2 cents.
----
Rescon

Don't know how to read music? Want to play piano? Come to Resonance Connection, where you'll find step-by-step tutorials about the basics of music theory and piano playing.
recon.awardspace.com


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## Azathoth

I don't know if I'm breaking some kind of site etiquette by posting in a thread that nobody's touched in a month, so I'm sorry if I am.

A really good keyboard is pretty good, although you really can't beat the real thing. I don't know how much it cost, and the company that made mine is now out of business, but I play on a full-scale keyboard with pressure-sensitive keys and pedals. Since I'm only 15, I don't know how much it cost us, or how much it is compared to a piano. That was also quite some time ago.

A less pianoesque keyboard might be worth it for the beginning, but even with my rather good keyboard I know it's nothing compared to a piano. A lot of good musicianship is being in tune with the mechanics of your instrument, and there's nothing quite like actually manipulating a piano.


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## jamesc

I have an electronic piano... if that makes any sense. It feels just like a real piano, but is electronic. I'm sure there are some out there that are cheaper than a real one. It's by Kurzweil if you're interested


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## Foninamchara

If you have a really good electronic piano it may sound similar to a piano...
but a melody that comes out.... I mean that's a whole different story.... Feeling on a piano
is richer, how should i explain, on piano you get a real satisfaction... 
I've just get yamaha electric piano and i own also upright piano and I steel prefer upright piano. I can't explain it, but when you play it for real you just can't play it on a electric piano.
In my opinion it's defenitly better to buy a non electric piano, even if it's a upright piano. And price of a upright piano and electronic piano it's equivalent. 
Also the big problem on electric piano is that you can play fff or ppp...

And sorry for my english


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## 4/4player

Hmm...I may be in trouble then!

I have music experience from violin and clarinet...but I recently signed up for private piano lessons from a classical pianist(she's a violinist too!)...but I don't have a piano, just a cheap keyboard that have no weight for the keys...I can't really afford an upright right now, since im only 15 yrs old...I don't want to get used to my keyboard that it hinders my piano playing...Any suggestions?=(


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## Krummhorn

You might check with local music stores who sell pianos to see if they can arrange for practice priveleges, like in a soundproof room; maybe even a local college or church/synagogue, too. Your piano teacher might also have some suggestions. 

Some music stores also rent pianos ... At least imho, proper technique for piano can only be learned on a mechanical piano. Good luck in your quest. 

Kh


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## Harmonie

I'm quite uneducated on this subject. So please spare me.

I like them both. However the feeling of having and playing a real piano is much better IMO. 

However, I have to say keyboards are amazing too. Especially when you take the time to find a really nice one. My parents just bought me one for a graduation present. I like how it's not out of tune at all. Our piano is TERRIBLY out of tune. The two highest notes sound the same on it! (just to give an example.)

I would have to go for a real piano, though. Acoustic instruments are just so much better. Knowing that the sound of my keyboard is artificial kind of bothers me... no matters how good it sounds.


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## zlya

In August my brother and his wife had their first baby, a beautiful little girl, and in a fit of insanity they chose me to be godmother. For her Christening, I gave her a piano. 

I would never dream of allowing a child in my family to grow up in a house without a piano. She's too young to play now, of course, but my father visits every few days and plays it for her. She sits on his lap and even reaches for the same keys he plays! So she's getting beautiful music in her life, and learning some motor skills. When she gets older she'll be able to experiment with sounds by banging on the keys, and eventually she may even learn to play. In the meantime, she will have live music in her home a few times a week.

I found that piano in the classifieds. Often you can find very cheap pianos ($200-$400) and sometimes even free (you just pay for the movers). The one I bought was $800, for an 1880s upright grand. Repairs cost a few hundred more, but my piano tuner loved it, told me it was a steal. My goddaughter will have that piano the rest of her life. It's not a toy, it's an instrument and an investment.

You cannot get that sound, that action, that feel out of an electronic piano. You end up paying more for an instrument that just isn't the same. Right now I have a digital Yamaha (P70) which is ok, but I would trade it in a second . . . a SECOND . . . for a real piano, however poor the quality. (I move too often for a real piano . . . can't take an upright on an airplane). I'm still learning, but I found that with a keyboard I had to make myself practice, whereas with a real piano I couldn't wait to play every day.

And Bassoonist, if your piano is out of tune . . . get it tuned!


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## Krummhorn

zlya said:


> . . . You cannot get that sound, that action, that feel out of an electronic piano. You end up paying more for an instrument that just isn't the same. Right now I have a digital Yamaha (P70) which is ok, but I would trade it in a second . . . a SECOND . . . for a real piano, however poor the quality. (I move too often for a real piano . . . can't take an upright on an airplane). I'm still learning, but I found that with a keyboard I had to make myself practice, whereas with a real piano I couldn't wait to play every day.


I quite agree, Zlya. Recently was the accompanist for a 100+ mass choir in a concert. The 'piano' that was available was a digital one ... almost impossible to get the deep bass resonance of those low strings from an amplifier and tiny speakers that speak directly into ones knees  !! It was not a great experience, and unfortunately there wasn't sufficient time to make a subsitution of instruments.


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## Josef Haydn

My opinion is that all Keyboards are terrible

I recently had my perfromance exam for my A-levels and played piano and every one of the pianists in the year demanded they bring in a decent piano because of the terrible keyboard in the exam room. Despite all the various levels of players, genres and styles, the keyboard wasn't good enough for anyone

Its a shame that my school only has one nice piano, yet the music department is one of the best in the district. They really need to invest in some proper pianos.

Synthesisers, they have their uses in popular music and can be quite fun but no pianist should be expected to perform on a keyboard. Its an insult


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## Azathoth

On this note, if you'll pardon the pun, will not having a real piano hurt me if I want to be a professional pianist?

It's a full scale, and is pressure sensitive so I can play dynamics, and it has the three pedals and all that, but it's not the real thing.

Do I need to get my grubby paws on the real deal?


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## zlya

Playing a keyboard is to playing a piano what going to a gynecologist is to having sex. Both can be horrible (even painful) without practice, both are generally good for you, but one of them is something you do because you have to while the other can be an immensely satisfying and spiritual experience which can take you out of the world to another plane. 

So Azathoth, do you HAVE to get a real piano? No. You don't HAVE to experience musical ecstasy.


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## Azathoth

zlya said:


> So Azathoth, do you HAVE to get a real piano? No. You don't HAVE to experience musical ecstasy.


;_;

I'm only 15, can you get a piano for...*checks wallet* $27?

Is it possible to experience really lame musical ecstacy on a keyboard?

...



</wrist>


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## zlya

Well, Azathoth, I'll bet your school has a piano, and I bet they'll even let you use it.


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## Azathoth

I'm doing Independent Study, and the school near me has a 50% graduation rate, and kids getting high and pregnant in the halls. Doubt there's a piano there. 

I guess I'll just have to steal from all the rich old people


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## Manuel

> kids getting high and pregnant in the halls.


Is that additive enunciation, or the proceed in that specific order?


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## zlya

Community center? Church? Local theatre? Elementary school? Community college? Piano store?

If you explain that you want to be a professional pianist but you can't afford a piano, I think you'd be surprised how many places will let you play theirs.


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## Azathoth

Manuel said:


> Is that additive enunciation, or the proceed in that specific order?


Usually both. It's just a crap school, and there are some good kids there but they sort of get lost in the masses.

Once I gain more technical proficiency, I'm going to see if any religious organizations have any room for an agnostic. I have no problems playing religious music, but since their primary outreach is religious, I'd feel kind of weird.

Once I stop being terminally shy, I think I know how to get tapped in.

There is one advantage to having an electric keyboard though: all the pretty sounds.

Sure, they're all boxed, but it's really fun to suddenly switch through eight different kinds of pipe organ or two kinds of harpsichord or two kinds of clavichord or twelve kinds of piano or four kinds of voices or four kinds of xylophone.


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## Manuel

> There is one advantage to having an electric keyboard though: all the pretty sounds.


The first step to become a pianist (or... at least a piano student), before you play scales, Herz or Czerny is to acknowledge the _electric keyboard _is one of humanity's worst diseases. It works if you are interested in pushing plastic with your fingers, but most pianistic _effects _ (which are the result of good technique) can not be performed there. See the *Pianists *thread.

I'm playing for some other students in the conservatoire in two weeks, and the hall we use doesn't have a real piano, so we will use a Clavinova. I've expressed myself against this, but other students doesn't seem to care. The problem is that I feel like most resources I have when playing, can not be shown using a keyboard.


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## Azathoth

It can be one of humanity's worst diseases and still make a lot of cool sounds.


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## Morigan

I'm wondering, why can't they invent some kind of keyboard with heavy keys similar to those of a piano? It shouldn't be that hard, reall.


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## zlya

Well, Morigan, they've tried to do this. It's called "weighted action", and most professional quality keyboards have it. However they've found that it is, in fact, extremely hard to emulate not just the feel of a keyboard but also the timbrel response to different keystrikes. With a mechanical action you can change the sound of the note by hitting the key in a different way. It's not like pushing a button, there are thousands of little nuances transferred from the key through the action to the hammer to the string. With a keyboard, you actually are just hitting a button. To make it accurately mimic piano action, you'd need sensors to determine the nuances of the touch, thousands of calculations to determine the exact resultant sound, and thousands upon thousands of sampled sounds to accommodate every possible keystroke. Seems it actually IS that hard, really.


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## Guest

Okay, have an old piano that is falling out of tune and keys are sticking. Let's just say i would rather pay a good sum of money to keep that old clunker than play and the most expensive electric piano. There is something about the way the keys hit and the vibrations you can feel coming from the piano. And if you have been playing long enough on a real piano it almost hurts to play any imitation. You might also experience the pain of having a note get louder or softer while holding it down. 

BUT!!!! 

For a one year old i would go for the fairly cheap keyboard in expectations to buy i piano. If the kid plays on the piano and tries to play without your intervention (playing not sporadic bangs) then you can expect a long term piano student and defiantly go for the PIANO, the real one. 

Hope this helps and sorry that i have a predisposition against keyboards, i just really dislike them.


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## thicks

Piano's and Keyboards are two *completely* different instruments. You have to understand that a piano can produce different sounds on one note. One way you can varie the sound on a piano is using flat fingers or arm weight giving a mellow, as opposed to sharp, sound.

Keyboards are VERY useful for composing and I have a CASIO WK-3700 keyboard for that reason, but i would never practise on it. I practise on a YAMAHA U1 PIANO.

It is impossible to get the touch and detail needed in piano pieces on a keyboard


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## toejamfootball

I just started learning Piano on a Casio Keyboard. I can play pretty well, but I notice I also hang my wrists while playing. Is there a website that tells the proper way to position your hands while playing?

I dont really like the sound of the Piano, Harpsichord or Clavichord on the Keyboard but I cant afford a real Piano.


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## Krummhorn

Hi toejamfootball (small world, ehh?)

Check this site out:  Understanding Piano Technique  written by a Ken Foster. Pretty helpful hints.

Good luck persuing piano.


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## charlesrowan

Becky,

I presently teach 25 children in private lessons. The children that play on cheap low level keyboards present to me cheap low level learning. Its seems they view it as a toy and lessons as a game. Stay with what other members said with the higher level brands of Dit Pianos. Of course your going to run into if I'm going to spend $1500-2000 on a ditigal why not get a used upright. I tell my families if they want a piece of nice furniture then go with an upright, if your want to move the thing around the house o with a good sound ditigal. Regarding technique I found it easies going from a real Piano to synthesizers. Did I overdrive the synths for a while until I got use to them. Key is I still have the strength and technique to play the acoustic piano.


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## music 10

*cheaper*

i agree with mr waltz. A keyboard is cheaper than a real piano but it has some disadvantages. The keys are softer than the piano so your child will not be able to practice dynamics the way he can practice in a piano. There are cheap pianos anywhere. Try second hand.


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## Mark Harwood

A keyboard is no substitute for a piano. The feel is very different, and it does different things. On the other hand, a good digital piano can be very satisfactory. My wife Carol's Roland HP7e is excellent, and the headphone option is useful. The keys have a mechanism that reproduces the feel of a "real" piano well. No tuning or maintenance either, but the re-sale value won't be much.
One thing it doesn't do, though: if you hold down a chord silently with one hand and play a chord with the other then release it, the held silent chord does not resonate like open strings would. It's a relatively rarely-used effect, and maybe more modern models do it.
So, for a starter instrument, I'd look for a second-hand Roland digital piano, along with a high-quality pair of headphones (we use Grado SR60), which will sound excellent even with a low-end model.


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## Beethoven

Aren't they like... the SAME THING?


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## Manuel

Beethoven said:


> Aren't they like... the SAME THING?


You should start by reading all the posts in this thread. Excepting the #41, which I find a bit inconsistent (but that is just my personal view)


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## Pianoforte

Its interesting that Becky started this thread 3 years ago so by now her children could potentially be playing all the greats 

There is no substitute for a real Piano. Its size, shape and inviting keyboard make it a much better option. I first fell in love with the Piano when I was 8 and I saw one at my grandparents house. I found it very mysterious but inviting. There are some very good (but expensive) keyboards that can mimic a Piano but will never be able to replicate the dynamics from a real Piano. My keyboard is velocity sensitive with after touch and although I can play with some emotion it still only has 3 areas of pressure meaning I can only play very soft, normal, or very hard. A Piano of course isn't limited in this way. The keys are also very light so a beginner would never be able to strenghten their fingers which is needed to play a Piano. Even keyboards with weighted, hammer action keys feel a bit fake and 'plonky' and the important damper and sustain pedals wont function in exactly the same way because its done electronically.

A child could soon grow bored of a keyboard or spend their time fooling around with the buttons and flashing lights rather than spending time on learning to play.

Pianos are very cheep and sometimes free in classified ads but the problem can be moving them and finding space to keep them. Once in place though they become part of the family and will be a source of fascination, wonder and comfort to the children of the house all through their all important childhood and teenage years. Even if they don't fall in love with the Piano (which of course can't be forced) it will hopefully introduce them to musical instruments in general and then theres bound to be something they want to learn.


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## Guest

Beethoven- It's the difference between a driving simulator and really driving. You can get the idea of how to drive but it's just not the same.


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## Mozart_Oboe_Beethoven

I have an electric piano that has a few vioces, metronome, and different sound settings, and it has weighted keys. I wish that my grandparents had not bought this one though; they got it at Costco, a Behringer CDP 1000 because it was about $500. I want something that feels more like an upright or grand piano. I go to my friend, who has a grand piano at her house, and play on her piano, and the difference is awful to me, same with other upright and grand pianos, the difference in feel is just too big for me to stand. but, unfortunately, we don't have the money.

There's my little rant. 

Um, I think that to start off with, an electric keyboard is fine, but depending on how quickly they progress, a better piano would be in order soon. Like me, I'm at the top levels of my lesson books and have been playing for under a year, and I'm already wanting a new piano, but that's just me (I'm picky like that, guess that's what I get for playing oboe and being pretty good at it  ) 

At least you have some time to figure it out. My grandparents just got this one on an impulse because it was cheap. I would rather have waited with my 76-key electric keyboard for another month or two to get a better piano. They are now saying that even if we had the money, an upright wouldn't fit in the same space as my digital (which has 88 keys). that's kinda crazy.


(sorry for ranting  )
Hope that helps


worse with my situation is the money, and the lack of understanding from the rest of my family. I'm the only one who is a serious musician (the only other musical person is my bro. on guitar), and I'm the only one who knows what it feels like to switch from a "weighted key" digital keyboard to a real piano. the grandparents were like "at least it's something for you to learn on" but to me, it's not a good substitute for me to learn on.


In short, get them a keyboard to start out with, and if they seem to really enjoy it and want to stick with it, buy them a real piano, not a digital weighted-key keyboard.


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## marie

I agree that an electronic keyboard is very different from a real piano in many ways. 

But I am currently considering buying it. I don't have the space to have a real piano. Besides, I often come late at night so that I don't want to make noises. So I'd rather go with an electronic piano, rather than not having a musical instrument at all. 

Although I play classical music like 10 hours a day, I still think that listening and playing are SO different. I miss the creativity of playing the piano.

The biggest issue for me with the electronic keyboard is the touch, which tends to be too soft. Do you have any recommendations of the makers in terms of the touch?


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## lorddaniel

becky said:


> I grew up with a piano, it was my grandmother's and she gave it to my mom. It was a great way to start my music career  I started banging on it when I was very little.
> 
> I was wondering if a good quality electric keyboard would make a good substitute for a piano for kids. I don't think I'll be able to afford a piano for my home for a quite a while, unless someone is trying to get rid of an old upright. But I've seen some pretty nice keyboards that have the same size keys as pianos that are way more in my budget. I want my kids to grow up with music like I did, but I'm not ready to fork out the cash for a piano!
> 
> Of course, if a child eventually really takes to the piano, I'll need to get one. I was just thinking in terms of a starter instrument!


I'm not a professional keyboard/piano player but i have an ear for quality and no electrical substitute can replace a traditional piano. The quality of the notes are far too superior to the keyboard. However, as it is for kids forking out so much money could be a gamble, and i doubt they will be too picky about quality, so, a keyboard will make a great substitute. Just make sure you get the best you can afford. The more you pay the better the quality.


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## nahkaiser

i think that an electric piano is good for starters but in the long run, nothing can replace that faithful old piano. Mostly because of the heaviness of the keyboards themselves that makes it irreplaceable. And plus, it trains your kids fingers and hands so they get accustomed to the weight, hence strengthens and lengthens them so they grow up with nice strong long fingers.


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## vivies

Hello,

I personaly think that nothing can replace a real piano forte, especially for beginners.
The touch, sound, dynamics cannot be found on electronic keyboards, and wrong habits are often impossible to fix later.

As a teacher I will recommend a simple upright piano.


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## Rasa

Quoted for truth


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## Yoshi

Keyboard vs piano = story of my life haha
I've been my whole life trying to decide what I should do about it. My first years of learning this instrument I only had a very small keyboard, those which keys arent heavy enough and it doesn't have the entire keyboard of a real piano. 
More recently someone borrowed me an electric piano, this time alot better for training and it even has a pedal. The thing is that, it still can't replace a real piano, with the beautiful sound coming from the strings, and some of the keys dont even work anymore. My teachers have always been telling me that I'm creating bad habits with these 'pianos'. 
Anyways, an upright piano is a bit expensive for me but maybe it's worth the money?


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## Guest

As a small opera company which spends a lot of its time touring, an electronic piano is absolutely indispensible for us.

So often we arrive in a theatre to find the piano is out-of-tune, has missing keys (!), or the pedals are broken, is below orchestral pitch, or the action is so poorly regulated (tech-speak for saying that the keys "drop" to uneven depths, instead of the regulation 16mm you will find on a properly-maintained piano). 

So we always pack our electronic instrument, and at least 50% of the time we end up using it.

A "real" piano is only better than an electronic IF it's been properly maintained and tuned (at least once per 3 months for a home instrument, at least weekly for a concert-hall instrument) by a qualified piano technician who can also regulate the action, voicing, and mechanism.

There is a lot of snobbery about "real" pianos. Here in Moscow at the Gnessin Academy of Music, Yamaha sponsored a concert series performed on electronic pianos. The results were at least as good as perfomances on indifferent or badly-made "real" pianos.


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## Teo

*This is a great topic! I wonder this every day..*

I hope to review this entire topic, this is such an important question! The more specific one is: Can one learn FINE PLAYING on a keyboard?

Non classical people often don't raise the hands dramatically and all the other gestures that real pianists do. Having come from keyboards, I never gave them much thought - but now that I'm studying the masters, Chopin, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Liszt and so on, I find that things like "bounce" where your hands literally bounce, are important.

I am now spoiled because for the first time ever, for under $500 you can get fully weighted 88 keys! The one I bought doesn't have sounds though, luckily I MIDId it to a PSR-510 that has really nice piano tones - even top and bottom notes!

I think I attached an image of it. It's not very "Dandy," you can't put a Candelabra on it! But I have found the sliders useful, and it looks high-tech!

I use a second pedal to get extra quiet, trying to emulate the practice/damper pedal on a real piano, hear the end parts of this Eb Major Prelude: http://webpageexperience.com/mid/2008Album/05TVChopinEbPrelude1.mid but nothing comes close to really dampering an actual string!

I would say, some things you can't learn except on a real piano, but there are many things you can do on a good electric.


Reiner Torheit said:


> As a small opera company which spends a lot of its time touring, an electronic piano is absolutely indispensible for us.
> 
> So often we arrive in a theatre to find the piano is out-of-tune, has missing keys (!), or the pedals are broken, is below orchestral pitch, or the action is so poorly regulated (tech-speak for saying that the keys "drop" to uneven depths, instead of the regulation 16mm you will find on a properly-maintained piano).
> 
> So we always pack our electronic instrument, and at least 50% of the time we end up using it.
> 
> A "real" piano is only better than an electronic IF it's been properly maintained and tuned by a qualified piano technician who can also regulate the action, voicing, and mechanism..


Like I said, I'll have to review this whole topic.. I have recorded a lot of MIDI sequences, and am considering recording the real piano downstairs. I am deciding to wait until the day it is tuned, and do all the recording quickly, before it goes out of tune! I'll want to put 2 good mikes in strategic places to get a good recording... it's a whole other science!

I have similar issues with my MIDI files. I want them to sound like a real piano, and well.. one fellow said use certain software where the bass is more in the left, higher tones in the right, and I'm looking to do that, in the past I simply let QuickTime sounds convert the MIDI into audio.. but of course.. I can share a MIDI with you instantly!

My dad used a real typewriter, he was proud of the old loud thing, some famous writer had used it. Nowadays though, our computer keyboards are quieter (some legal secretaries like the clicking!), we can easily backspace and correct.. isn't that better? And I can type this reply to you - which you just might get today! In minutes!!!

I can MIDI something for you, and send it to you in a jiffy. Some would say it's too fast, there is no time to really, you know, give the experience credit! Everything digital seems like.. less human!

Hope this helps, and thanks for the opportunity to share my two sense.. he he..

Love and LIGHTNESS, 
Teo


----------



## Teo

Sorry, it's called the 

M-Audio Keystation 88

There's another one with sounds, supposedly half-weighted keys! This one I like because my fingers really feel practiced! In other words, they're sore after some difficult pieces... and that's good? Yes!


----------



## muxamed

I don't really understand how a couple of loudspeakers can sound like a real acoustic instrument. It would be an audiophile nirvana.

Acoustic piano and electric piano (keayboard) are, for me two completely different instruments, and there is no way anyone can learn how to play piano practicing on a digital keyboard. 

If you want to learn how to play piano get a piano! If you want to learn how to play electric keyboard get an electric keyboard! And do it early!


----------



## muxamed

Teo said:


> My dad used a real typewriter, he was proud of the old loud thing, some famous writer had used it. Nowadays though, our computer keyboards are quieter (some legal secretaries like the clicking!), we can easily backspace and correct.. isn't that better? And I can type this reply to you - which you just might get today! In minutes!!!


This is a terrible comparison. Typewriter is a typewriter, it is not a computer! It is really bad to use this analogy in order to compare acoustic piano with a digital keyboard!


----------



## Rasa

Terribad analogy...



> I would say, some things you can't learn except on a real piano, but there are many things you can do on a good electric.


You can learn to press buttons in an elevator too, that doesn't make it a musical instrument (although the likes of John Cage may disagree ).

Sure you can learn to press the button corresponding to the note, but you learn nothing in the sense of control of your dynamic and attack, you don't learn to listen to the sound you produce.


----------



## Teo

muxamed said:


> This is a terrible comparison. Typewriter is a typewriter, it is not a computer! It is really bad to use this analogy in order to compare acoustic piano with a digital keyboard!


No it's not. Why not talk about what keyboard Bach used? Handel? Don't be snotty.

I have so many points to make, and so many strong feelings and ideas about this, but I'll simply ask this:

Music programs in public schools are devastated. Kids think music equals a mike and a record player. So many, I mean so so many youth could use an inexpensive keyboard and start learning music.

You're elitest attitude is why popular music is in the dumps. Harpsichord, organ, caliope and accordian tones can all be learned on electric.

On the other hand, telling a kid only play their fingering, Chopin and other excellent techniques is applaudable.

I had a vacation recently and bought a $50 keyboard from Craigslist and kept practicing my new songs, fingerings on the little 60 key keyboard. I think this was a great way for me to keep my chops up, and of course duh I spend every minute of grands, uprights and all pianos I can try.

Thanks so much for this opportunity to share my ideas, and getting picked on, great!

Sincerely,
Teo


----------



## muxamed

Teo said:


> No it's not. Why not talk about what keyboard Bach used? Handel? Don't be snotty.


Yeah, why not? They used acoustic keyboards. Acoustic keyboards went through development since 18th century and today we have nice acoustic instruments that are joy to play on.



Teo said:


> I have so many points to make, and so many strong feelings and ideas about this, but I'll simply ask this:
> 
> Music programs in public schools are devastated. Kids think music equals a mike and a record player. So many, I mean so so many youth could use an inexpensive keyboard and start learning music. .


Many kids today don't see the difference between a computer and a music instrument and that is ok with me. I still think that playing an acoustic piano is completely different thing from playing an electric keyboard.



Teo said:


> You're elitest attitude is why popular music is in the dumps. Harpsichord, organ, caliope and accordian tones can all be learned on electric. .


Yes, and these "tones" can also be "learned" on a personal computer using a computer software. But what is the point? Is it the same thing as playing an acoustic piano. I mean you can imitate a trumpet or an oboe on a digital keyboard but is it really the same as playing a real trumpet or a real oboe? Following your logic we really don't need any acoustic instruments anymore as any acoustic instrument can be imitated by an electric. Do we really need that?

Cheers


----------



## TWhite

Let me say one thing about electronic keyboards, unless you are willing to spend about as much as you would on a good-quality upright piano: 

CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME!!

When electronic keyboards came out, I had been playing piano for umpteen years. Suddenly when I'd be hired for accompanying jobs, places I was supposed to accompany had replaced their pianos with electronic keyboards (less maintanence, cheaper to purchase at first). I ended up using piano technique on something that had no 'give' or response. A year later, I ended up spending about six thousand dollars of my own money to have my right hand operated on to cure Carpal Tunnel syndrome. 

Two years later, I became an accompanist at a high school. There was a Yamaha upright in the choral room that had not been tuned in several years. Beside it was an electronic keyboard. The choral director smiled at me and said "We use the keyboard." I smiled back and said "I don't," and showed her the scar on my right wrist where the operation had taken place. She blinked, "I don't think we have the budget to to have the piano tuned." I stared her right in her pretty face and muttered, "I'll pay for it. Get it tuned or find another accompanist." 

Well, Gloriosky, they got the piano tuned. And they found the money in the budget. I stayed there until my retirement, six years ago. I only retired because another choral director came in and insisted that I play the keyboard. I bade her a very 'unfond' farewell. I now work as an accompanist at another high school where luckily, the choral director is a pianist herself. Her thoughts: "Who the Hell wants to play one of THOSE?" 

Just my story. IMO, an electronic keyboard is to a piano as an "Air" guitar is to a good Martin.

Tom


----------



## Rasa

A heartwarming story.

I'm convinced you can't expand your musicality on a keyboard.


----------



## TWhite

Rasa said:


> A heartwarming story.
> 
> I'm convinced you can't expand your musicality on a keyboard.


Rasa:

Amen to that!

Tom


----------



## Rasa

Also. How could that last woman demand you play on an instrument you don't play? I find it unbelievable that a professional choral conducter (if that's indeed what this highschool choirmistress is) would not prefer acoustic over keyboard....


----------



## TWhite

Rasa said:


> Also. How could that last woman demand you play on an instrument you don't play? I find it unbelievable that a professional choral conducter (if that's indeed what this highschool choirmistress is) would not prefer acoustic over keyboard....


Rasa:

Unfortunately, she seemed locked into 'trends'. To her, a keyboard was less troublesome and more portable and didn't have to be tuned once or twice a year (cutting into the music budget). Of course, it didn't seem to occur to her that if something went wrong with a keyboard, it would more than likely have to be sent back to the manufacturer for repair.

And it didn't seem to bother her ears that accompanying Mozart, Vivaldi or Brahms on a portable keyboard tended to make the performances sound like bad rock 'n roll no matter HOW you programmed it, LOL!

BTW, she's no longer teaching at that particular high school. But now that I'm happily employed at the other high school with a choral director who is more realistically attuned to what an accompanying instrument is SUPPOSED to sound like, I'm a much happier camper. So are my hands.

Tom


----------



## Rasa

Terribad, terribad. Besides, a choir wouldn't pick up much about resonance or harmony from a keyboard like it would from a well-tuned acoustic.


----------



## muxamed

Blasphemy, to put it simple.


----------



## Teo

*Saying Vivaldi has to be played on piano is sort of silly...*

TWhite, I hope your CPT is better. I know a pianist Rebeca Mauleon-Santana who once was suffering and had a wrist brace on. Not that I want to get it, but how does it occur?

I guess you wouldn't play an organ with a choir if they wanted? I applaud your perfectionism, and hope your attitude won't keep people from hearing your valid points.

Are you and Rasa going to say Bach should be played on an accoustic piano? Don't you two realize that people have budgetary considerations or do you not care if they go bankrupt?

Rasa my musicality from my Clavinet with Wah-Wah techniques have musicality you would never know, except if I kindly shared it All types of keyboards have their pros and cons, lets discuss this like adults, or at least people who can talk. You insult all the harpsichordists, church organists, baseball and theatre organists, accordionists and keyboardists. Why? Do you want to be disliked?

Maxumed, you as why not be snotty? Did you know there is a terrible recession? Did you know that people have to make-do all over or do you just hate anyone without your means?

I'm enjoying this discussion, which is what I think it is. We are in open space, no walls, everything said here is free for anyone to read. Shouldn't we be finding compromises so that people who have things to share will appreciate our open-mindedness enough that they share what they have?

You should be encouraging your kids to know the value of a Stradavarius, Beusendeufer (spleling?), or wood flute over the brass ones if you know the difference and your own children don't. Why is that fine that they ignore your wisdom, then you pounce on me?

I'm trying to make concrete suggestions. There is no way you can convince me that when I'm on the road I shouldn't practice on whatever I can get my hands on.



Reiner Torheit said:


> As a small opera company which spends a lot of its time touring, an electronic piano is absolutely indispensible for us.
> 
> So often we arrive in a theatre to find the piano is out-of-tune, has missing keys (!), or the pedals are broken, is below orchestral pitch, or the action is so poorly regulated (tech-speak for saying that the keys "drop" to uneven depths, instead of the regulation 16mm you will find on a properly-maintained piano).
> 
> So we always pack our electronic instrument, and at least 50% of the time we end up using it.
> 
> A "real" piano is only better than an electronic IF it's been properly maintained and tuned (at least once per 3 months for a home instrument, at least weekly for a concert-hall instrument) by a qualified piano technician who can also regulate the action, voicing, and mechanism.
> 
> There is a lot of snobbery about "real" pianos. Here in Moscow at the Gnessin Academy of Music, Yamaha sponsored a concert series performed on electronic pianos. The results were at least as good as perfomances on indifferent or badly-made "real" pianos.


Tuesday, two days ago, I had my classes at the RCM, and I often while waiting for my teacher try various piano room doors to play various pianos. I found for the first time, the Claviola room, that's what they said on them, all blinking and high-tech.. and with three pedals!

In my own process of trying to reproduce what a true piano plays, the one certainty is that you don't have the "una corda" pedal with electrics. Hah! I went around the room, there were maybe 20 more facing the head of the class. It said "please do not remove the headphones." I guess this class allows 20 students to be practicing, maybe the teacher can even electronically listen to a various piano at a time - there was a master console type of thing at the teacher's piano.

I think I'll take the Royal Conservatory of Music's smarts over any of yours if I have to choose, but I choose not to. I like to hear from people who will hate me for trying to create genuine piano tones electronically. I have tried for years!

The far left pedal really seemed to make it have only one strings sound, for those of you who don't know, the far left pedal shifts the entire keyboard over so that only one string plays. Some piano notes have 3 strings, some 2. I've only seen the mark "una corda" in a Franz Liszt piece, but it's great if you want a Chopin type of softness, he was famous for being so pianissimo that it drove some people (Thalberg in particular) nuts!

I used an "expression pedal" to get a super-quiet tone at the end of this piece, about 12 bars from the end, the out-of-time fast part chromatic way high. I know it's not una-corda but I made every effort to be as soft as possible:

ChopinEbPrelude1.mid

As a ".mid" file of course it plays different on every computer, or sound system or what have you. This, I, consider a plus! I like seeing how it sounds everywhere different. Some would say make it into an audio file, but MIDI files are so small, it's amazingly useful the things you can do with them! I can play something, and email you a full performance in maybe 25K!

OK there I pushed the electronic advantages. To be honest I probably agree with all of you who hate anything not accoustic piano. But we all have to live together on this planet.

I think Reiner Torheit has every right to use the tool that gets the job done, and I think our job as discussion members is to see if we can help people see the light. Help with something we might have that will help them, not insult them into admitting defeat, that's not discussing, that's insulting or badgering.

Here's what I propose, and I hope it's way beyond any of what you are discussing:

I want to teach "fine playing on keyboard," meaning exactly what the negative ones of you would hate. How to learn Fur Elise on a $200 keyboard that has 5 octaves - not unlike all the clavichords I admire in the Conservatory behind display glass.. f to f usually.

The student should get basic fingering and knowledge of chords, as well as learning songs on the inexpensive keyboard - therefore all youth, now addicted to nintendo, x-box, wi or whatever gadget is marketed to them, can have a "methadon" or "addiction light."

Time would have to be put in on actual weighted piano keys, with an actual teacher helping them understand how they're making the tones, things I'm learning now that I had no clue for decades. We don't leave our youth to the mercy of whatever the high-tech-gadget company wants them to believe is superior, we have to guide them with wisdom, and fun too!

One advantage of having them learn with the keyboard is that they can really play harpsichord tones for certain things! I use that when doing my harmony homework, and it helps me get in the mindset of Baroque music. They can play tuba, clavinet, synth bass or whatever - but they have to learn to only play what is appropriate in front of adults, especially those who take their music seriously. But we should discuss all of this with them, not use rules, rather give them the wisdom to know all of this. They can convince their friends to come play their keyboards by inticing them with nutty sounds, eh?

The specific distinctions of how a tone is made on a keyboard - this includes organ, harpsichord and others - vs. piano, this should be made very clear to the student. They need to understand the superiority of the piano keyboard instrument, from many points of view. Of course it has more range than anything else on the planet, and probably has more solo concertos than anything else.

I read the book Stradavari a few years ago, and the next week "All The Stops" about organs in the US. The Stradavarius book changed my whole idea of what a musical instrument is. I don't thing there is any way to learn violin on any electric gadget that you can put headphones into, so again, I agree with purists in general. In general, not always, in other words, not in specific.

2 issues are paramount: 1) the tones the student should play, only piano or maybe tines if this is a better tone on the keyboard. 2) the specific finger strength that will not be learned on organ or other keyboards, specifically the dynamics and other possibilities on piano that aren't on other keyboards.

I want to write a "Fine Playing On Keyboard" exactly because as you said: "Many kids today don't see the difference between a computer and a music instrument and that is ok with me." That's not OK with me. That's the difference between us. I want to help them spend time using Beethoven or Chopin as their addiction, not "Grand Theft Auto" or "God Of War 5" which is their current addiction.

It's funny the arguments used against electric, hey, I enjoy making music playing elevator buttons! I have a story about talking to Bukla the inventor of an early electronic keyboard, I whote the manual for "Synthesound" a Vic-20 cartridge, I contributed to the book "Atari and Kids" adding music to the computer programs, and other funny factoids, but let's discuss, not be mean.

I basically agree with the purists among you, but also know that nothing is written in stone. If the piano you use was vandalized, you'd have to play what ever could be brought in. Admit it! You should look into the Claviola ones that the RCM uses, and maybe your favorite piano manufacturer is working on an electronic one that you can make valuable suggestions to them about! I know you have valuable insights, I'm even glad you use some of them against me. I don't care, I just want to share and learn.

Thanks ever so for this opportunity to be picked on, share my silly ideas and still be happy and wanting more! he he..

Sincerely,
Teo


----------



## TWhite

Teo said:


> TWhite, I hope your CPT is better. I know a pianist Rebeca Mauleon-Santana who once was suffering and had a wrist brace on. Not that I want to get it, but how does it occur?
> 
> I guess you wouldn't play an organ with a choir if they wanted? I applaud your perfectionism, and hope your attitude won't keep people from hearing your valid points.
> 
> Are you and Rasa going to say Bach should be played on an accoustic piano? Don't you two realize that people have budgetary considerations or do you not care if they go bankrupt?
> 
> Rasa my musicality from my Clavinet with Wah-Wah techniques have musicality you would never know, except if I kindly shared it All types of keyboards have their pros and cons, lets discuss this like adults, or at least people who can talk. You insult all the harpsichordists, church organists, baseball and theatre organists, accordionists and keyboardists. Why? Do you want to be disliked?
> 
> Maxumed, you as why not be snotty? Did you know there is a terrible recession? Did you know that people have to make-do all over or do you just hate anyone without your means?
> 
> I'm enjoying this discussion, which is what I think it is. We are in open space, no walls, everything said here is free for anyone to read. Shouldn't we be finding compromises so that people who have things to share will appreciate our open-mindedness enough that they share what they have?
> 
> You should be encouraging your kids to know the value of a Stradavarius, Beusendeufer (spleling?), or wood flute over the brass ones if you know the difference and your own children don't. Why is that fine that they ignore your wisdom, then you pounce on me?
> 
> I'm trying to make concrete suggestions. There is no way you can convince me that when I'm on the road I shouldn't practice on whatever I can get my hands on.
> 
> Tuesday, two days ago, I had my classes at the RCM, and I often while waiting for my teacher try various piano room doors to play various pianos. I found for the first time, the Claviola room, that's what they said on them, all blinking and high-tech.. and with three pedals!
> 
> In my own process of trying to reproduce what a true piano plays, the one certainty is that you don't have the "una corda" pedal with electrics. Hah! I went around the room, there were maybe 20 more facing the head of the class. It said "please do not remove the headphones." I guess this class allows 20 students to be practicing, maybe the teacher can even electronically listen to a various piano at a time - there was a master console type of thing at the teacher's piano.
> 
> I think I'll take the Royal Conservatory of Music's smarts over any of yours if I have to choose, but I choose not to. I like to hear from people who will hate me for trying to create genuine piano tones electronically. I have tried for years!
> 
> The far left pedal really seemed to make it have only one strings sound, for those of you who don't know, the far left pedal shifts the entire keyboard over so that only one string plays. Some piano notes have 3 strings, some 2. I've only seen the mark "una corda" in a Franz Liszt piece, but it's great if you want a Chopin type of softness, he was famous for being so pianissimo that it drove some people (Thalberg in particular) nuts!
> 
> I used an "expression pedal" to get a super-quiet tone at the end of this piece, about 12 bars from the end, the out-of-time fast part chromatic way high. I know it's not una-corda but I made every effort to be as soft as possible:
> 
> ChopinEbPrelude1.mid
> 
> As a ".mid" file of course it plays different on every computer, or sound system or what have you. This, I, consider a plus! I like seeing how it sounds everywhere different. Some would say make it into an audio file, but MIDI files are so small, it's amazingly useful the things you can do with them! I can play something, and email you a full performance in maybe 25K!
> 
> OK there I pushed the electronic advantages. To be honest I probably agree with all of you who hate anything not accoustic piano. But we all have to live together on this planet.
> 
> I think Reiner Torheit has every right to use the tool that gets the job done, and I think our job as discussion members is to see if we can help people see the light. Help with something we might have that will help them, not insult them into admitting defeat, that's not discussing, that's insulting or badgering.
> 
> Here's what I propose, and I hope it's way beyond any of what you are discussing:
> 
> I want to teach "fine playing on keyboard," meaning exactly what the negative ones of you would hate. How to learn Fur Elise on a $200 keyboard that has 5 octaves - not unlike all the clavichords I admire in the Conservatory behind display glass.. f to f usually.
> 
> The student should get basic fingering and knowledge of chords, as well as learning songs on the inexpensive keyboard - therefore all youth, now addicted to nintendo, x-box, wi or whatever gadget is marketed to them, can have a "methadon" or "addiction light."
> 
> Time would have to be put in on actual weighted piano keys, with an actual teacher helping them understand how they're making the tones, things I'm learning now that I had no clue for decades. We don't leave our youth to the mercy of whatever the high-tech-gadget company wants them to believe is superior, we have to guide them with wisdom, and fun too!
> 
> One advantage of having them learn with the keyboard is that they can really play harpsichord tones for certain things! I use that when doing my harmony homework, and it helps me get in the mindset of Baroque music. They can play tuba, clavinet, synth bass or whatever - but they have to learn to only play what is appropriate in front of adults, especially those who take their music seriously. But we should discuss all of this with them, not use rules, rather give them the wisdom to know all of this. They can convince their friends to come play their keyboards by inticing them with nutty sounds, eh?
> 
> The specific distinctions of how a tone is made on a keyboard - this includes organ, harpsichord and others - vs. piano, this should be made very clear to the student. They need to understand the superiority of the piano keyboard instrument, from many points of view. Of course it has more range than anything else on the planet, and probably has more solo concertos than anything else.
> 
> I read the book Stradavari a few years ago, and the next week "All The Stops" about organs in the US. The Stradavarius book changed my whole idea of what a musical instrument is. I don't thing there is any way to learn violin on any electric gadget that you can put headphones into, so again, I agree with purists in general. In general, not always, in other words, not in specific.
> 
> 2 issues are paramount: 1) the tones the student should play, only piano or maybe tines if this is a better tone on the keyboard. 2) the specific finger strength that will not be learned on organ or other keyboards, specifically the dynamics and other possibilities on piano that aren't on other keyboards.
> 
> I want to write a "Fine Playing On Keyboard" exactly because as you said: "Many kids today don't see the difference between a computer and a music instrument and that is ok with me." That's not OK with me. That's the difference between us. I want to help them spend time using Beethoven or Chopin as their addiction, not "Grand Theft Auto" or "God Of War 5" which is their current addiction.
> 
> It's funny the arguments used against electric, hey, I enjoy making music playing elevator buttons! I have a story about talking to Bukla the inventor of an early electronic keyboard, I whote the manual for "Synthesound" a Vic-20 cartridge, I contributed to the book "Atari and Kids" adding music to the computer programs, and other funny factoids, but let's discuss, not be mean.
> 
> I basically agree with the purists among you, but also know that nothing is written in stone. If the piano you use was vandalized, you'd have to play what ever could be brought in. Admit it! You should look into the Claviola ones that the RCM uses, and maybe your favorite piano manufacturer is working on an electronic one that you can make valuable suggestions to them about! I know you have valuable insights, I'm even glad you use some of them against me. I don't care, I just want to share and learn.
> 
> Thanks ever so for this opportunity to be picked on, share my silly ideas and still be happy and wanting more! he he..
> 
> Sincerely,
> Teo


Teo:

As to the Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, the surgery was a success, and I've not had any re-occurances. But then I have stayed largely away from keyboards, UNLESS they have an actual weighted 'acoustic' piano key action, and even then, I only play them if ABSOLUTELY necessary. My ear is attuned over years and years of playing to an 'acoustic' sound, which quite frankly, no electronic 'chip' can really satisfactorily duplicate, even if that sound has been 'chipped' from a Boesendorfer, as one particular electronic keyboard manufacturer claims.

It's not a matter of being a musical 'snob', believe me. I'm told by fellow musicians that I'm the least 'snobbish' pianist they know, LOL! It's just what my ears have become attuned to over a long period of time.

As to playing organ--a common misconception is that if you play piano you can play organ. Granted the two instruments have a keyboard in common, but that is where the comparison stops cold. And organist presses the keys and slides from one to the other. A pianist does more 'finger lifting'. That's why a pianist needs a 'cushion' in the piano action. One lifts their finger from a piano key, the sound is decaying. One lifts their finger from an organ key, the sound stops. A pianist uses their fingers (and arms and shoulders and a lot of the upper body) to control the volume and quality of the sound with the assistance of pedalling. An organist uses the pedals and various stops to control the volume and quality of sound with the assistance of the fingers. Okay, that's a simplification, but basically, that's the difference.

It is easy for an organist to become a good pianist. For a pianist to become a good organist, one has to actually re-invent their technique.

Now, as far as Bach on an acoustic piano--I'll start ducking the bricks and admit that I don't LIKE the sound of Bach on a piano. I play very little Bach, and only if I'm accompanying either a vocalist or a choir, which means I'm playing an orchestral transcription, rather than an original pre-piano keyboard work. For me, the piano is a 19th/20th Century instrument, and back-dating the sound of the piano to accommodate pre-piano keyboard music is just something I don't care to do. I'm a pianist/accompanist, and music that pre-dates the instrument itself is not something I'm very interested in performing. There are enough very excellent Early Instrument musicians around these days, why should I drag in my Steinway and insist that I work with recorders, viols, or the other instruments that give Baroque and earlier music it's particular delicious flavor?

And no, I'm not going to plug in a Clavinova so that I can use the Harpsichord stop, LOL! The Harpsichord isn't my instrument, either. I tried it, earlier in my career, gave it up. The SOUND didn't work for me. I'm a 19th-20th Century kind of guy, and that's the music and the instrument that I specialize in.

Hate to make this answer so long, Teo, because I really appreciate where you're coming from--it's just not where I'M coming from. And if what works for you works, I say Good On You. One of the things that makes this Art and Profession so satisfying for us all individually, is the fact that there are so many RIGHT approaches to it. Yours AND mine.

I really liked your comments.

Tom


----------



## Teo

*Glad to disagree! Uhm.. happily, I mean!*



TWhite said:


> ...A pianist uses their fingers (and arms and shoulders and a lot of the upper body) to control the volume and quality of the sound with the assistance of pedalling. An organist uses the pedals and various stops to control the volume and quality of sound with the assistance of the fingers. Okay, that's a simplification, but basically, that's the difference.
> 
> It is easy for an organist to become a good pianist. For a pianist to become a good organist, one has to actually re-invent their technique.
> 
> Now, as far as Bach on an acoustic piano--


_This is getting fun!_

I was hoping to actually discuss these specific differences, the topic is called "Keyboard vs. Piano" and I would think this should be a well balanced match, lots of bets on both sides for who will win, will there be "fouls" or cheating or a fair match! he he..

I've only recently learned the "arms and shoulders and a lot of the upper body to control the volume and quality of the sound with the assistance of pedaling.." from my Hungarian piano teacher who I'm going to see his performance tonight! Handel, Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy and Bartók. He taught me gestures to get a bounce in my sound, I've played a lot of calypso where the whole song is about bounce, and the rhythms in the left and right hands make one want to jump and bounce around..

But I had never used the arm that way, ever! I started remembering hearing about Gonzalito Rubelcaba the amazing Cuban pianist from a friend: "we can't stand watching him, he hardly moves and makes it all look so easy.." I think Rubelcaba is probably always on eclectrics, and probably doesn't have the motions of a real pianist. Only now do I see how Liberace, Glen Gould and other pianists probably looked eccentric to those who didn't know what they are doing..

Basically since learning real piano, not keyboard, I feel I've missed out on a while world of what playing a piano is! I'm hoping to learn more about what I've been missing, though I don't know if I can keep quiet about the distinctions and just humbly join the piano-only club. I think I'll want to really focus on what those differences are - like, I never thought of raising my arm after notes on my keyboards, and I think because they are not really music instruments, but *switches*, there need be no real arm movement. Unless.. it helps the mind to _pretend_ that it is a real instrument.



> I'll start ducking the bricks and admit that I don't LIKE the sound of Bach on a piano. I play very little Bach, and only if I'm accompanying either a vocalist or a choir, which means I'm playing an orchestral transcription, rather than an original pre-piano keyboard work. For me, the piano is a 19th/20th Century instrument, and back-dating the sound of the piano to accommodate pre-piano keyboard music is just something I don't care to do. I'm a pianist/accompanist, and music that pre-dates the instrument itself is not something I'm very interested in performing. There are enough very excellent Early Instrument musicians around these days, why should I drag in my Steinway and insist that I work with recorders, viols, or the other instruments that give Baroque and earlier music it's particular delicious flavor?


This is exactly the kinds of thinks I was hoping to find out! I play "Air on the G String" with more octaves between hands, and I imagine Bach or Beethoven or Liszt saying something like: "Why not use the octaves of your tool? Maybe add octaves instead of single notes? Even more octaves between!" Yes, in my head the old greats are really creative.. he he.. 


> Hate to make this answer so long, Teo, because I really appreciate where you're coming from--it's just not where I'M coming from. And if what works for you works, I say Good On You. One of the things that makes this Art and Profession so satisfying for us all individually, is the fact that there are so many RIGHT approaches to it. Yours AND mine.
> 
> I really liked your comments.
> 
> Tom


u r 2 kind!

I was hoping we could like.. agree to disagree and really pick on each other, in the good way! Strangely.. I think that was my last time snooping around the rooms in the conservatory, but I found what I was looking for all this time: the exact answer to share with you all in this discussion forum! Seeing that room of electrics, now I have ideas like: can students CHOOSE to study in that room rather than on a real piano (obviously only one student to a room)? Would it be less expensive class on those Claviolas? And all the other questions about could one learn organ or harpsichord on them.. of course they are weighted keyboards..

I look forward to being picked on more, I really think this is a valuable discussion, and hope to hear all sides!

Sincerely,
Teo


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## TWhite

Teo: 

Actually, I doubt that you're going to get 'picked on' as you say--and certainly not from ME, LOL! It's obvious that you have a very healthy curiosity about ALL 'keyboard' instruments (electronic, acoustic, organ) and their sonic and technical differences. In fact your attitude actually makes me sound like I'M "Locked In". 

I was interested in the fact that you were attending a piano recital of composers as varied as Handel, Beethoven, Chopin, Debussy and Bartok. Discounting Handel, who is 'pre-piano' (though l like Handel a lot, and actually, I think that his harpsichord works somehow seem to take very gratefully to the sound of the piano--go figure!!), there are four VERY distinct approaches to the keyboard with the other composers. I'll be interested to hear your take on the music and the style-differences. Will Beethoven sound more 'orchestral' than Chopin, and will Debussy--even perhaps in the more exciting passages--sound more 'muted' and concerned with tonal color than the more 'percussive' Bartok--things like that. Of course, these are all EXTRAORDINARY composers for the piano--each one of them a pioneer in their concepts of the capabilities of the instrument. 

And your piano coach is Hungarian? Lucky you. I don't want to sound 'eletist', but I firmly believe that any serious piano student should have at least ONE teacher who is either European, or trained by one. My first piano teacher, way back when, was an Austrian emigre who escaped Hitler and took on a six-year old student (me) because I had large hands and perfect pitch. He was remarkable. I stayed with him all the way through high school. I learned what I suppose would be called the "European" technique, which was slightly curved fingers, loose wrists, forearms and shoulders. A subsequent college professor adapted that to the "Russian" technique, which was for me, simply additional upper body weight. My one problem has always been that I have extremely short thumbs for my quite broad hands, so scale work has never come as easily as it has for a great many of my fellow pianists (probably one reason why I dont play a lot of either Mozart or Chopin, LOL!). But oddly enough, the particular shape of my hands makes playing both Brahms and Rachmaninov relatively (and I use that word with caution) easy. 

Which is a way of getting around to saying that with all of that 'weight' training, I really need a keyboard that is 'cushioned' and responsive, or its like suddenly digging my fingers down on a card-table. And I've never found an electronic instrument that has the amount of 'cushion' that I really need to feel comfortable. 

Of course, all of this talk about 'weight' may make me sound as if I'm a pianist who never learned anything at a lesser volume than Fortissimo, but that's not the case. It's using the weight to control the sound--crescendos and decrescendos--and phrase a melodic line. I do use a lot of body movement, that's just me. I've got excellent pianist friends who use a great deal less than I do and I'm always absolutely amazed at the variation in tone and color that they get out of the instrument. Again, as I said in my previous post, it's a different approach to getting it right. 

At any rate, let me know about the recital, okay? I'd really like to hear your insight. 

Tom


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## Rasa

I wonder if there are any electronic keyboards which can be used to give something that resembles a Debussy or Ravel rendering?


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## TWhite

Rasa said:


> I wonder if there are any electronic keyboards which can be used to give something that resembles a Debussy or Ravel rendering?


Rasa:

Nothing I've ever found. Once I got curious and tried out "La Cathedrale Engloutie" on a Clavinova and it didn't work at all. ESPECIALLY that 'wash' of ascending chords at the beginning.

Tom


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## Rasa

TWhite said:


> Rasa:
> 
> Nothing I've ever found. Once I got curious and tried out "La Cathedrale Engloutie" on a Clavinova and it didn't work at all. ESPECIALLY that 'wash' of ascending chords at the beginning.
> 
> Tom


Well, we can practically discount any 20th century "intellectual" music from being played or rehearsed on electronics.


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## muxamed

I agree. And playing is not simply a "work of fingers". Playing piano is as much "pressing the keys" as "listening to what is produced". I think that electric pianos cannot give us either. Both the touch to the keys and the sound of an accoustic is completely absent of course and that is the whole point.


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## Rasa

Maybe the essence of the issue at hand is that in an electronic keyboard, there is no physical link between your fingers and the sound, and that knowing this link and mastering it's control is essential to true keyboard play.


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## chrisg

I'm old school. You can't get better than a piano when compared to a keyboard however I must say that I'm impressed with digital pianos and howw far they have come in the past 10 or so years.


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## lavenderchild

becky >> I bet your girl is 3 now? my mom used to dump my sister and I with lots of toys that has piano key with them, ie: toy piano, pencil case with piano on it etc. 

My first piano was a 3rd or 4th hand (which is horrible) that cost around MYR 2k and my mom later bought us a 2nd hand Kawai upright grand (or so they call) for around MYR 6k with plenty of free items like free piano cover, free tuning, free shipping, free polishing liquid etc.


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## growley

I had a Yamaha Tyros, and I have to say it's a remarkable piece of kit, but I prefered the technics piano which I had before the yamaha. I think it's because I mainly use the piano sound, and on the technics, it is recorded off a steinway whereas, obviously the yamaha keyboards record yamaha pianos for their sound. 

I got better, and my nan bought me a nice, second hand yamaha grand IT IS AMAZING!!  

I love pianos, as you may have guessed


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## senorpk82

*Choose a piano*

I recommend you invest in a piano because if your children follow in your footsteps and decide to get serious about playing, then you will have an instrument they'll cherish. I would recommend a Steinway baby grand piano since they're preferred by concert halls, schools and private homes.

You will need to begin with a budget, but don't worry there are plenty of affordable Steinway pianos in New York. Owning a piano can be a good investment and given the history of Steinway as a world renowned brand, your investment can retain its value.


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## Rasa

Baby grands? please...


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## 151

I have both an upright piano, manufactured locally and a digital piano by Kawai. My discrepancy is that with some good headphones on, I can practice for 4+ hours a day, ideally, whereas, too much acoustic practice would arouse my neighbours. I play several instruments and I've recently had a lot of noise complaints, apparently I'm not that good.

I was never a performance player, I missed my slot at the concert, so my main acumen is always pattern. If I learn a piece I generally try to memorise it and that afterwards I can sculpt it by ear and by matriculation. For my Rock sensibility, that is enough.

I'm not going to deny the difference in dynamics, feel, machinery and so on, you're totally correct on that. I just don't feel like everybody around me wants to hear me practice, so I have a digital piano, an electric guitar and I'm looking into semi-electric or fully electric drums.

If I want to 'perform' something, I'll use an acoustic instrument, but for practising on the graveyard shift, I have no other choice than to use headphones. I've had years learning on an acoustic one at school so hopefully I have absorbed some of the lessons on nuances, posture and tenacity.

A tip for keyboardists - set your velocity to the least responsive so that your finger strength is best/most utilised. 

Seems like Rasa is on a tirade to knock as many sticks off shoulders as possible, I won't be joining in with that regime. If anybody has any tips, I'd be glad to hear them.


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## AStarrii

An electronic piano will never be a proper substitute to the real thing. I've been playing ten years and now and then I pop into a music store to test out electronic pianos, although they've definetly gotten better, there is somthing missing. I agree with Foninamchara.

I started out on an electrical piano when I was about 6 and it was two years before I had a real piano in my house. I have no problems from this and I believe that it is no problem. However please keep in mind the real this is better (unless you want all the fancy shanannigans on the electric keyboard of course  )


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## Wolfgang

Now, I admit that I have not read every post in this thread, and so I apologise if a question I'd like to ask has already been covered. (I promise to do the necessary penance for my laziness.)

I would like to know if it is acceptable to, for a relatively short period of time, maybe half a year or so, take up piano study* on a 61 key keyboard? Forgive my ignorance, but I wonder whether the highest and lowest octaves of a piano are more or less unused in the simplest piano pieces. Does anyone have an opinion on this topic they would like to generously share?

EDIT.

*If piano study must be started on an electronic keyboard due to circumstances, rather than beginning with a piano.


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## Teo

I still think this is the most interesting, and probably most important topic of all (ever!).


151 said:


> A tip for keyboardists - set your velocity to the least responsive so that your finger strength is best/most utilised.


My M-Audio Keystation88 I do the reverse, change the expression to the most responsive - but I'm trying to get Chopin ppp (very quiet) to Liszt fff (very loud) and really get the sense of different mechanics, which of course it isn't.

I like your intention though 151, and I remember in Jr. High the pieces of wood with keys on them, these can help too!

Whenever possible, a piano, grand if possible though they are harder and I have heard teachers say start young kids on easier keyboards like organs. Then again I keep seeing 10 year olds who play harder stuff than I can 

To answer you question Wolfgang, I would say absolutely you can learn a lot from 61 key keyboards (here's a fun idea: get 2 and set their octaves, then you'll have 10 octaves! he he..). I learned so much on a 76 key keyboard, only maybe 3 songs of 50 wouldn't all fit - and I just had to switch octaves which one often has to do anyway. My own method is to put the song in memory, like 151 said, and then I put away the paper and practice practice practice and having my electric right next to my bed I can play difficult passages just before bed, in the morning immediately play my chromatic Major 9th chords in both hands (sometimes to the top and near the bottom of the keyboard, about 5 octaves) which I would never do on a real piano.

I'm lucky and have an upright downstairs I can use from about 10-8 or so. I still give'm a break and only do about an hour at a time. At the RCM I rent practice rooms and have started recording pianos on my laptop, but of course it's so much easier to just record (OK sequence) MIDI and I do this AAAALL THE TIME! Love it. MIDIs are ring-toneable too, didja know? But as far as becoming a true pianist?

You can do a lot, a huge amount actually, on keyboards, and I'd like to make a book teaching this so that we can get these brats addicted to nintendo and egomania with faceblort addicted to making Fur Elise sound funny, they can show off to their friends, and eventually find that amazing bliss of playing a Bach prelude or even a hymn or just a favorite song of theirs or a family member, and help keep those beautiful cultures alive! OK sorry to preach..

The problem is the perfectionists, and you have to accept much of what they say is true. On the other hand, we all don't have certain luxuries. Rather than have that be a place where we argue, let's make it a place where we experience luxuries vicariously.. it is really fun to hear someone who will only play a real quality piano tell you about why. The gestures and approach to the piano is often different for people who only play them. I am starting to try and do those Liberace grandiose gestures and boy it feels silly on a keyboard, but in reality I'm gathering high-level techniques, and synthesizing a new cross-current of playing that infuses those things into what is otherwise not as lively.

A similar thing happened with using Finale to do my scores. I always feel a sequence that is entered by the computer keyboard or mouse sounds totally machinelike. Well now I'm being a perfectionist and putting tons of performance marks, p pp ppp f ff etc.. and guess what? Now my sequences sound pretty good! Much more lifelike. Of course that's like adding a flute on top of rap and saying "isn't that sweet" instead of having everything else drop out or what I grew up on, a loud snare drum that woke everyone up and we all shut up so that .. it did start to sound sweet! Drum machines never have real "Breakdowns" which was one of the greatest things in the Soul Music days.

OK I've gone off of the track, forgive my typing tons of text here but hey, all you have to do is scroll down. people have asked for suggestions and so I'm letting a few out. The M-Audio Keystation 88 is the first time ever fully (almost) weighted 88 keys is less than $500! It doesn't have sounds though, so you have to buy (or get from a friend who is tired of it) a $200 Yamaha PSR or something that is VELOCITY SENSATIVE THROUGH MIDI, then plug in midi cables, everything defaults to channel one so plug them all in and probably it'll play just fine.

There is a semi-weighted M-Audio Keystation, actually much lighter, and has like 2 pianos, 2 organs, maybe more? If anyone has that one let us know about it too!

Any and all time spent studying music notation, in other words, practice reading as much as you can! Also practice the songs you know as much as you can. Also if you have original songs, buy or print out music paper and score your compositions! You might not think them all that great right now but believe me later on they are total gems! Make tapes if you can too. Later on you can rework them - many great composers worked on songs for years! OK some like Wolfgang Mozart would simply compose one time perfect, but his pop was mad genius, sis was amazing - you ever see the size of HER hair?!?!?

Every minute dedicated to improving your musicianship will pay off and you will be so much happier you did it! When people say you are playing on a toy, let that make you happy that you aren't so prejudiced, and really change your attitude to wanting to hear - and letting them rant and rave about what a real keyboard should be or do or feel like. It will be a really rewarding thing for you both. You'll disagree, but who knows, you might find someone who likes to tell you "the good old daze" or something you want to know about anyway!

Hope that helps. Peace (of music!!!) Teom


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## Rasa

I smirk at these attempts to make keyboards into viable practice tools...


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## SonataSonataSonata

Rasa said:


> I smirk at these attempts to make keyboards into viable practice tools...


As a piano instructor, I usually smirk, too, telling parents of my students that the worse upright piano is better than any digital keyboard/piano. I used to feel the same way about students wanting to play pop music instead of the standards.

Then I thought about it for a minute and realized, "Hey, at least they are playing _something_" whether it be a real piano, digital piano, pop music, or Beethoven.

I still usually avoid these types of discussions, though. :devil:


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## SonataSonataSonata

Rasa said:


> Baby grands? please...


I haven't been on the forums long, but I have a feeling I am always going to agree with anything you say, but...

I used to giggle about any "grand piano" shorter than 5'10" (well, it used to be anything shorter than 7', but let's be generous here).

But, then I played a 5'1" Boston grand that was absolutley amazing, or maybe I had a cold that day and my head wasn't on straight. :lol:


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## Rasa

My issue with baby grands is not their sound per se, but that a baby grand takes up a lot of space and yet can't sport the same chord lenght an upright can.... so it's an aesthetic thing, the baby grand, and doesn't have a lot to do with the sound depth.


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## SonataSonataSonata

Rasa said:


> My issue with baby grands is not their sound per se, but that a baby grand takes up a lot of space and yet can't sport the same chord lenght an upright can.... so it's an aesthetic thing, the baby grand, and doesn't have a lot to do with the sound depth.


So you are talking _really _baby-baby grands, like 4'10" and under grands (as those would have a shorter string length than a 48-50" upright, typically).


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## danae

Guys, seriously, no electric keyboard can ever replace its acoustic equivalent (whether it be cembalo, clavichord, fortepiano or piano). El. keyboards are fine for studying but that's all. 

Oh and something else: just as you can't play Ravel, Debussy or Rachmninov on a keyboard, you can't play Bach, Mozart or Scarlatti either.


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## Rasa

danae said:


> Oh and something else: just as you can't play Ravel, Debussy or Rachmninov on a keyboard, you can't play Bach, Mozart or Scarlatti either.


"Apart from his Pitch, rythm, timing, phrasing and articulation, he's a really fine violonist"


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## danae

Rasa said:


> "Apart from his Pitch, rythm, timing, phrasing and articulation, he's a really fine violonist"


Ha ha! Exactly.


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## Argus

I suppose a piano is better for some things.


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## lyndon243

yes. nice one. i agree with you. It is better to play a real piano than electric piano. The melody of a real piano can direct to your soul. Its a different feeling in playing electronic. I can't explain the feeling. hahah


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## psylocke24

Yes, I also agree but they are talking about the prices of a real piano, I guess for kids that is just starting to learn piano music better start with a keyboard.


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## Graham

Harvey said:


> I have a 73-key Casio only used to input MIDI into my computer (via SB Extigy).
> I have to say, that it's hell to play on it.
> 
> I have a Samick WSU-131MD upright. It sounds...decent to most people (to me it sounds horrible) and has partial sostenuto. Got it for ~~6000USD.


Thanks harvey, i was also facing the similar problem about piano and keyboard choosing for my son who just 4 year old and he is very keen to play the piano, after read your communication i got the right idea.


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## Graham

Thanks harvey, i was also facing the similar problem about piano and keyboard choosing for my son who just 4 year old and he is very keen to play the piano, after read your communication i got the right idea.


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## bdog

I have a full size Yamaha "digital grand" keyboard. The great thing is I can practice anytime without annoying the other people in my house. The horrible thing is that it's _no_ comparison to my teacher's baby grand that I play on once a week. I started taking lessons at age 32 (34 now) and it's my dream to own a real piano one day.


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## sime

Keyboards and pianos and the same instruments they can give great music and sounds. I have both instrument keyboard and a piano, I've been playing it more than 9 years now both are produce great music .But I will choose electric keyboard, its easy to use in practices, have many features in sounds and can be carry any were I like.

http://keyboardmarket.webs.com/


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