# What Operas should I watch to begin with?



## UnauthorizedRosin (May 5, 2016)

Hello. I haven't watched an opera in a while, so I'm rather unfamiliar. What are some prominent, famous, and remarkable operas I should watch first? Or just any good ones in general. They seem very interesting. Thank you.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

UnauthorizedRosin said:


> Hello. I haven't watched an opera in a while, so I'm rather unfamiliar. What are some prominent, famous, and remarkable operas I should watch first? Or just any good ones in general. They seem very interesting. Thank you.


Take some time to browse trough the Opera thread.
We have 100 best recordings, current listing / watching, even a You tube thread, might give you some ideas.:tiphat:


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

UnauthorizedRosin said:


> Hello. I haven't watched an opera in a while, so I'm rather unfamiliar. What are some prominent, famous, and remarkable operas I should watch first? Or just any good ones in general. They seem very interesting. Thank you.


This is our first 'recommended' thread and we added an updated list as we had lots of new opera fans and amongst the old-timers (forum years not age years!) some of our tastes had changed.

These lists will never be accurate. Personally I think I qualify as an opera fanatic, I listen and watch CDs/DVDs a lot and spend all my spare cash on opera trips .... but I detest Wagner so he'll never appear on any recommended list of mine.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

What other music do you like? No opera is the right first opera for everyone, and there are great operas in every style of music since Monteverdi.


----------



## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Also, what subjects interest you? What kind of story are you in the mood for?


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Not that interested I see


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'elisir_d'amore I recommend L'elisir d'amore by Donizetti. It was the first opera my brother watched and he really loved it. Fun, light and with endlessly catchy tunes throughout. Carmen by Bizet is also a great first opera... very dramatic and fun.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I can't really remember what my first full length opera was because I found opera via liking a singer and then finding stuff which he'd done but I think it was _Lucia di Lammermoor_. My first live opera was _Don Pasquale_.

Either of these would be ideal for a 'first timer', and both have an easy storyline. It's so difficult to recommend something though. My friend's first opera was _L'amour des trois oranges_; she was channel hopping and this popped up and she liked it and thought "Wait a minute, this is _*opera*_??!" She had no idea it could be so varied. It's like saying you like art or pop music.


----------



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

I would recommend *Il Trovatore *because it's simply very catchy.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Look at synopses of many operas (they should have books of opera synopses at your library) and when you find one with a story that you really like, then give it a try. I found it is very helpful to watch a DVD with English subtitles to really understand an opera before listening only on CD.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Get a DVD of Neil Shicoff doing _La Boheme_. It will tear your heart out.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

O.P is doing research , no time to check the tips I suppose .


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Look at synopses of many operas (they should have books of opera synopses at your library) and when you find one with a story that you really like, then give it a try. I found it is very helpful to watch a DVD with English subtitles to really understand an opera before listening only on CD.


I think the music is the most important.
If only the plot were important everyone who likes Macbeth by Verdi and Lohengrin by Wagner would also like Macbeth and Lohengrin by Sciarrino.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rigoletto...............


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Sloe said:


> I think the music is the most important.
> If only the plot were important everyone who likes Macbeth by Verdi and Lohengrin by Wagner would also like Macbeth and Lohengrin by Sciarrino.


Tell me this is Wagner's plot:

The story of Sciarrino's*Lohengrin*is seen from the point of view of Elsa, a*vestal virgin*who is accused of*fornication. Lohengrin marries Elsa, but on their wedding night, despite Elsa's attempts to seduce him, he refuses to consummate the marriage. Eventually one of the pillows changes into a swan and Lohengrin returns to the moon on its back.*The opera ends with the revelation that Elsa is actually a patient in a*psychiatric ward.
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohengrin_(Sciarrino))


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> Rigoletto...............


I began with Rigoletto - good choice. That or Carmen.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Rigoletto...............


La Traviata and Il Trovatore will do the job also.


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2016)

Die Entführung aus dem serail perhaps?


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Traverso said:


> Die Entführung aus dem serail perhaps?


Nothing wrong with that also. :tiphat:


----------



## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

La Boheme or Tosca. Because they clock in around the two hour mark. Also the structure of these operas are modern, more like sung through musicals. And the music and characters are fantastic.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> Tell me this is Wagner's plot:
> 
> The story of Sciarrino's*Lohengrin*is seen from the point of view of Elsa, a*vestal virgin*who is accused of*fornication. Lohengrin marries Elsa, but on their wedding night, despite Elsa's attempts to seduce him, he refuses to consummate the marriage. Eventually one of the pillows changes into a swan and Lohengrin returns to the moon on its back.*The opera ends with the revelation that Elsa is actually a patient in a*psychiatric ward.
> (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohengrin_(Sciarrino))



I see.
But the point is still relevant.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sloe said:


> I think the music is the most important.
> If only the plot were important everyone who likes Macbeth by Verdi and Lohengrin by Wagner would also like Macbeth and Lohengrin by Sciarrino.


Good point, but I think one still has to find stories they would like, then can check out the music. In many cases one may not know that a story was covered in opera by more than one composer. When I started out I pursued DVDs and so would find a good story, then look for DVDs and then look for clips on You Tube. It worked well for me, but that may be because I did not care for a majority of operatic stories.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Berg's Lulu, Shostakovich's Lady MacBeth of Mtsensk, Wagner's Parsifal. All good jumping in points for a newbie!!


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Barbebleu said:


> Berg's Lulu, Shostakovich's Lady MacBeth of Mtsensk, Wagner's Parsifal. All good jumping in points for a newbie!!


If they like Alban Berg´s and Shostakovich´s other music why not.
Maybe Parsifal too if it was not so long and slow.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> Tell me this is Wagner's plot:
> 
> The story of Sciarrino's*Lohengrin*is seen from the point of view of Elsa, a*vestal virgin*who is accused of*fornication. Lohengrin marries Elsa, but on their wedding night, despite Elsa's attempts to seduce him, he refuses to consummate the marriage. Eventually one of the pillows changes into a swan and Lohengrin returns to the moon on its back.*The opera ends with the revelation that Elsa is actually a patient in a*psychiatric ward.
> (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohengrin_(Sciarrino))


I really like Wagner's Lohengrin, but this interpretation, in my opinion, is horrible. But I will admit it is a clever interpretation, just one that does not appeal to me.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I really like Wagner's Lohengrin, but this interpretation, in my opinion, is horrible. But I will admit it is a clever interpretation, just one that does not appeal to me.


Wagner wasn´t the original creator of the Lohengrin story and he made the changes of the stories too. Sciarrino´s Lohengrin can work in its own right it is an original work unlike when directors try to make operas into something else. My problem with Sciarrino operas is that I find their music to sound really boring.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

SimonTemplar said:


> Tell me this is Wagner's plot:
> 
> The story of Sciarrino's*Lohengrin*is seen from the point of view of Elsa, a*vestal virgin*who is accused of*fornication. Lohengrin marries Elsa, but on their wedding night, despite Elsa's attempts to seduce him, he refuses to consummate the marriage. Eventually one of the pillows changes into a swan and Lohengrin returns to the moon on its back.*The opera ends with the revelation that Elsa is actually a patient in a*psychiatric ward.
> (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohengrin_(Sciarrino))


I think you've convinced me that I like the plot of Sciarrino's opera more than Wagner's.



Sloe said:


> My problem with Sciarrino operas is that they have boring sounding music.


Thanks for the warning, but I guess I'll find out.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SimonTemplar said:


> Tell me this is Wagner's plot:
> 
> The story of Sciarrino's*Lohengrin*is seen from the point of view of Elsa, a*vestal virgin*who is accused of*fornication. Lohengrin marries Elsa, but on their wedding night, despite Elsa's attempts to seduce him, he refuses to consummate the marriage. Eventually one of the pillows changes into a swan and Lohengrin returns to the moon on its back.*The opera ends with the revelation that Elsa is actually a patient in a*psychiatric ward.
> (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohengrin_(Sciarrino))


Well at least the guy had the decency to write his own opera. I thought at first it was some Regietheatre director playing games. I don't think I'll rush to hear it though.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Well at least the guy had the decency to write his own opera.


Exactly my first thought. Instead of wreaking havoc on the masterworks of Mozart and Verdi, people with perverted minds should hire composers or librettists and do their own take on Don Juan or Othello. Unfortunately, I more than suspect, wreaking havoc is part of the game they're playing. You can't "epater le bourgeoisie" when the bourgeoisie knows in advance to save its money and go to a movie instead.


----------



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I think the music is the most important.
> If only the plot were important everyone who likes Macbeth by Verdi and Lohengrin by Wagner would also like Macbeth and Lohengrin by Sciarrino.


Agreed. 
Actually I find plots to be the least appealing thing in an opera.. If it wasn't for the music, I would have never liked I puritani or Ernani or pretty much any bel canto opera..


----------



## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

Loge said:


> La Boheme or Tosca. Because they clock in around the two hour mark. Also the structure of these operas are modern, more like sung through musicals. And the music and characters are fantastic.


La Boheme was a gateway opera for me, and I have introduced at least one other person to the art by lending him my LP album, which had been a gift from my then GF. The guy, Fred, was a college roommate who was going on about West Side Story one day. I allowed it was a great musical, but offered him my La Boheme to see what he thought of it. He got hooked at first listen, and I often came home to find him intently listening to the records, following the music with the included libretto. I was both pleased and surprised, considering he was a jock who was enrolled with an athletic scholarship (wrestling) in a pre-med program and had almost no classical music background. From there, Freddy branched out into (what else?) Tosca and got so involved that he switched his language requirement to Italian so to better appreciate opera, which he considered an Italian thing. So based on my own and Fred's experiences, I must say heck yeah on Puccini.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Agreed.
> Actually I find plots to be the least appealing thing in an opera.. If it wasn't for the music, I would have never liked I puritani or Ernani or pretty much any bel canto opera..


You will get there.......... eventually.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Agreed.
> Actually I find plots to be the least appealing thing in an opera.. If it wasn't for the music, I would have never liked I puritani or Ernani or pretty much any bel canto opera..


A good opera plot is above all one which provides the composer with situations conducive to musical expression. Lots of opera stories and librettos wouldn't stand up as straight plays, but are quite effective as musical theater. I wouldn't want to have to recount the plot of _Il Trovatore_ to anyone, but it's a heck of a good opera, barbecued babies and all.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tuoksu said:


> Agreed.
> Actually I find plots to be the least appealing thing in an opera.. If it wasn't for the music, I would have never liked I puritani or Ernani or pretty much any bel canto opera..


If I don't like the plot I generally avoid the opera, but from a pure musical standpoint, I could listen to the worst plot if the music is good. However, I generally like to be more involved, know the plot, and see the opera with subtitles a few times to reinforce the entire experience.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

As for good plots to tickle a newbie's fancy: There is nothing better than the good old espionage mystery of _Tosca_. There's sex, violence, jealousy, love, torture, murder, suicide and wonderful arias as well.
It isn't called "the shabby little shocker" for nothing!


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

1.) The first opera I saw live was _Faust_, when I was 15 - and it was ideal for me. I probably wouldn't have enjoyed _Madama Butterfly_ or _Falstaff_. I'd listened to _Rheingold_ when I was seven; watched _The Queen of Spades_ on TV; listened to _Straszny dwór_, _Flying Dutchman_ and _Pearl Fishers_ (among others); and my parents went to the opera a lot - so I grew up with the idea that seeing opera was what people did.

2.) The story is important! Opera isn't just music; the music heightens the drama. Many great tunes have a life outside the opera house - but many composers wanted their operas to be not just tuneful, but theatrically effective.

Italian operas - certainly of Handel's period, and many of the bel canto period - are primarily vehicles for music. In the case of Rossini, great music. But that's an oversimplification! _Ricciardo e Zoraide_, _Bianca e Falliero_ and _La donna del lago_ have wonderful music but aren't dramatic; _Ermione_, _Tell_, _Semiramide_ and the last act of _Otello_ are.

Nevertheless, towards the end of the bel canto period, composers wanted to compose gripping theatre. Donizetti moved in the direction of Romanticism and intense drama, while Mercadante wanted to abolish the bel canto conventions and concentrate on the drama.

French composers, with their declamatory tradition, thought that opera should be workable theatre rather than just a vehicle for the voice. From the late 1820s / early 1830s, grand opéra was a unified art form, incorporating elements of music, visual art, dance and drama, with social or philosophical themes. Musicians tried to recreate a historical period through music - instrumentation, particular forms - just as set designers and costumes visually recreated the time and place. Both composers and critics paid as much attention to the story and libretto as they did to the music.

French grand opéra was the model for Russian opera (_Boris Godunov_), Verdi (_Ballo_ and after) and Wagner... And what would Wagner have said if you told him the drama didn't matter? 

Towards the end of the century, partly under Wagner's influence, content dictated form, as in Sondheim's musicals today. Classic example: Massenet, who reinvents himself with each opera.

3.) I showed a friend _Les Huguenots_ (Opera Australia). They enjoyed it a lot. Sutherland's at the end of her career, Anson Austin isn't a great Raoul, but it's a stunningly good opera. Tragedy? _Salome_. Something funny? Rossini or Offenbach's _Brigands_. Brilliant performance here: 




There's so much variety in opera, though, that you can find something to suit any taste.

...

But the best opera to start with is _Licht_.


----------



## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Sloe said:


> I think the music is the most important.
> If only the plot were important everyone who likes Macbeth by Verdi and Lohengrin by Wagner would also like Macbeth and Lohengrin by Sciarrino.


Or Barbier by Paisiello, or Boheme by.... Leoncavallo.

Agreed and you make a good point, never thought of it this way.


----------



## znapschatz (Feb 28, 2016)

nina foresti said:


> As for good plots to tickle a newbie's fancy: There is nothing better than the good old espionage mystery of _Tosca_. There's sex, violence, jealousy, love, torture, murder, suicide and wonderful arias as well.
> It isn't called "the shabby little shocker" for nothing!


Yes to all that, but it was Scarpia's _Te Deum_ that drew me in, even more than Tosca's _Vissi D'arte_. Such delicious evil!
And I love the story about the final scene in one production in which Tosca leaps to her death, landing on a cushion designed too well so that she briefly reappeared. I wish I had been there to witness that.

BTW, I never knew the opera was ever known as "the shabby little shocker." Gosh, the things you learn on this web site.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

znapschatz said:


> Yes to all that, but it was Scarpia's _Te Deum_ that drew me in, even more than Tosca's _Vissi D'arte_. Such delicious evil!
> And I love the story about the final scene in one production in which Tosca leaps to her death, landing on a cushion designed too well so that she briefly reappeared. I wish I had been there to witness that.
> 
> BTW, I never knew the opera was ever known as "the shabby little shocker." Gosh, the things you learn on this web site.


"Shabby little shocker" was Joseph Kerman's description in his book _Opera as Drama_. He didn't mean it as a compliment. Agree with him or not, the book is a classic and worth anyone's while. I read it early in my music life and it did a lot for my understanding of opera as a serious art form.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> "Shabby little shocker" was Joseph Kerman's description in his book _Opera as Drama_. He didn't mean it as a compliment. Agree with him or not, the book is a classic and worth anyone's while. I read it early in my music life and it did a lot for my understanding of opera as a serious art form.


I don't think Kerman was too keen on _Verismo_ at all.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

znapschatz said:


> Yes to all that, but it was Scarpia's _Te Deum_ that drew me in, even more than Tosca's _Vissi D'arte_. Such delicious evil!
> And I love the story about the final scene in one production in which Tosca leaps to her death, landing on a cushion designed too well so that she briefly reappeared. I wish I had been there to witness that.
> 
> BTW, I never knew the opera was ever known as "the shabby little shocker." Gosh, the things you learn on this web site.


I too agree that the Scarpia Te Deum is the singular thing that grabbed me and never let go.
And yes, Woodduck is correct (as usual) that the term "shabby little shocker" was meant in a demeaning way but what the hell did Kerman know anyway?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Kerman knew quite a lot (yes, I know you're kidding), and had a lot of insight into the ways in which music and drama could work together to convey meaning. He pointed out that Puccini's use of the tune from "E lucevan le stelle" to accompany Tosca's suicide leap was purely for effect and lacked dramatic integrity. The dramatic meaning would have been more properly served had the opera ended as it began, with Scarpia's theme, but evidently Puccini was too enamored of his "hit tune." Verdi or Wagner would have known better.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Kerman knew quite a lot (yes, I know you're kidding), and had a lot of insight into the ways in which music and drama could work together to convey meaning. He pointed out that Puccini's use of the tune from "E lucevan le stelle" to accompany Tosca's suicide leap was purely for effect and lacked dramatic integrity. The dramatic meaning would have been more properly served had the opera ended as it began, with Scarpia's theme, but evidently Puccini was too enamored of his "hit tune." Verdi or Wagner would have known better.


Thinking about it and the powerful impact that that theme has on the entire opera, I must say that I completely agree with that theory.
Ah well, I still say Jack was some kind of magnificent composer, jump or no jump.


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I too agree that the Scarpia Te Deum is the singular thing that grabbed me and never let go.


Me, three! (Not 15!)


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I am always curious what O.P is doing with all this information.


----------

