# How do you go about approaching Beethoven and Mozart's piano sonatas?



## Il Seraglio

Hopefully the thread title isn't too confusing.

This one is quite tricky for me. I love Mozart and Beethoven's piano concertos, no short thanks to the accompanying orchestra. And there is a great deal of solo piano music I love. Especially from the likes of Debussy, Liszt and Chopin. Other keyboard music I warmed to quite quickly were Scarlatti's sonatas and Bach's Goldberg variations and I am just beginning to see the beauty of Schubert's solo piano works.

And yet despite the fact that I'm really crazy about Mozart and Beethoven most of the time, I just can't warm to their sonatas in such a way that I feel as if I need to re-programme my listening temperament. It can't have anything to do with me hating the piano as the above paragraph shows. Is it because their sonatas are essentially the classical (as opposed to baroque or romantic) style pared down to its logical, rigorous essentials and are suitable only for serious listening not pleasure? Perhaps the biggest barrier for me is their rigid sound.

Did anyone else initially have difficulty appreciating works like Beethoven's _Pathetique_ sonata or Mozart's C minor sonata? When did the 'beauty' of these works eventually click for you? That is if they did at all.


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## ScipioAfricanus

just listen to them.


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## Octo_Russ

Personally i am not greatly attracted to Mozart's Sonatas, but Beethoven is certainly a more interesting proposition, and yet his 32 Sonatas are a daunting task, the solution for me was to pick a very few and get to know them well, the Sonatas with names seem to be the easiest to like, especially the 'Moonlight'.

However, if you are having a hard time with them, then why press the issue?, my advice would be to follow what you like/love, leave aside Beethoven and Mozart for the moment, and concentrate on Schubert, you say you're beginning to enjoy his works, in my mind Schubert's last Sonata [No21 D860], is the greatest Piano Sonata of all, there is no law which says you've got to like Beethoven and Mozart, i feel you will come back to these Composers later, and you'll be ready.

In the meantime, may i suggest along with more Schubert, maybe Rachmaninov too, especially his 24 Preludes and Etudes-Tableaux, and certainly more Bach, his Well-Tempered Clavier [48 Preludes & Fugues] are a delight to get to know.

Oh and by the way, you said "_are suitable only for serious listening not pleasure?_", in my opinion serious listening *is* a pleasure!, i hope this happens to you too.


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## dmg

Love Mozart's sonatas. For me, it all started with the first, from the following recording:









http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Fortepiano-Sonatas-Anthony-Newman/dp/B000024O8V/


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## Aramis

I fell in love with three Beethoven standards: Quasi una Fantasia, Pathetique and Apassionata from the first listen. I can't understand what is your problem. These sonatas are beginning of romantic piano expression with disturbed passages and expressively striking loud chords, there is nothing formal that requires logical analysis. 

They are even easier to dig than Chopin sonatas or many works of Liszt. 

Did you try Les Adieux?


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## Ukko

Aramis said:


> I fell in love with three Beethoven standards: Quasi una Fantasia, Pathetique and Apassionata from the first listen.


Just an aside - there are more than one of those quasi-fantasias.

It's a big mistake to sit down to listen to (jeez, a lot of 'to's there) Beethoven's sonatas with wrinkles between your eyebrows. Pick a reliable pianist (Richter, Gilels, Schnabel are very reliable, but the Schnabel is in 'historical' sound), and just absorb it in as large chunks as the music will let you; things will begin to work. Even the early Op. 2 no. 3 will lull you into a gentle place - and then the finale will adjust your attitude again.

Mozart's sonatas are mostly a different ballgame (K.457 is unique). I suspect that nobody here will agree with this suggestion, which is to listen to some harpsichord music first. Even if you can't dig the sound of the instrument, get a notion of how the progressions sound together. I predict that this plan will make Mozart's early sonatas, including the 'Paris' sonatas, more emotionally comprehensible.

Sorry about the length of this post. Sometimes us _ancientes_get carried away.


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## dmg

Hilltroll72 said:


> Mozart's sonatas are mostly a different ballgame (K.457 is unique). I suspect that nobody here will agree with this suggestion, which is to listen to some harpsichord music first. Even if you can't dig the sound of the instrument, get a notion of how the progressions sound together. I predict that this plan will make Mozart's early sonatas, including the 'Paris' sonatas, more emotionally comprehensible.


This is probably why I was initially attracted to the works via the above recording as it was done on the fortepiano - a much sharper sound (and closer to the sounds of the harpsichord and clavichord class of instruments than standard modern pianos).


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## Ukko

dmg said:


> This is probably why I was initially attracted to the works via the above recording as it was done on the fortepiano - a much sharper sound (and closer to the sounds of the harpsichord and clavichord class of instruments than standard modern pianos).


I have - or had that CD; you could well be right. Fortepianos before about 1780 were even more 'harpsichordish' than that one.


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## Conor71

Il Seraglio said:


> Did anyone else initially have difficulty appreciating works like Beethoven's _Pathetique_ sonata or Mozart's C minor sonata? When did the 'beauty' of these works eventually click for you? That is if they did at all.


I would rate Beethoven & Mozart's Piano Sonatas as being among my most favourite of classical compositions now but it did take me a while to warm to them and I had to re-listen to them quite a few times before I started to "get" them and then everything seemed to fall into place.
It sounds a bit daft to say this but a barrier that I had to overcome with these works was the fact that they are quite Jolly and light hearted in places and I am generally more attracted to darker works so not all the Sonatas were even immediately appealing to me.
Getting to know these works is also a considerable investment in time, given that the complete Beethoven's are 8-10 Discs and the Mozart's are 5-6 Discs - my advice would be just to continue re-listening as usual and everything will eventually fall into place for you like it did for me - I think if you wish to undertsand and get to know the works better then it will all work out .


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## Sebastien Melmoth

Lately been revisiting the *Mozart Piano Sonatas*.

After years of listening to Glenn *Gould*'s readings, and shunning *Uchida*'s, I'm discovering a new appreciation of the Sonatas in readings by *Arrau* and *Richter*. *Schiff* too made a complete cycle.

Of the great sonata cycles, we have those of Haydn; Mozart; Beethoven; Schubert; and Skryabin.

Favourites:

*Haydn - Gould

Mozart - Arrau, Gould, Richter

Beethoven - Kempff, Gould

Schubert - Schiff, Lupu

Skryabin - Sizdon, Ogdon*

Pollini has dropped off my map; ditto, Uchida and Brendel.


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## Ukko

Have you heard Sokolov play Haydn sonatas? Unconventional, but beautiful.

He doesn't make studio recordings nowadays, but some concerts and radio broadcasts have been recorded - apparently with his permission.


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## Sebastien Melmoth

To be honest, there are a number of younger generation Russian and Eastern European pianists whose work I don't really know. Sokolov is one. Volodos is another. Anderszewski, Demidenko, et alii.

Can't seem to sort them out.

Have to wait to see who lasts; who grows; etc.


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## Air

Add Valery Afanassiev to the list of great contemporary Russian pianists. His Schubert cycle is mesmerizing, comparable to Richter's. Sokolov is really good in Chopin, Demidenko in Medtner. Volodos is technically very good in the Rach 3 I have of him. 

I would name Gavrilov too, but that man as kind of fell behind the times as of late. Same goes to Pogorelich from Croatia.


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## Olias

This series of lectures is marvelous and takes you through all 32 sonatas in great detail.

http://www.teach12.com:80/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=7250


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## StlukesguildOhio

Mozart's piano sonatas are nice... and there are a few really special ones, but honestly they are not on the level of Beethoven's or even Haydn's. Several times I've come across the statement suggesting that Haydn's sonatas are quite lovely... because he wrote them for himself, where Mozart's were often written for his (often less than virtuoso) students. On the other hand... Mozart's piano concertos are among his crowning achievements.

As for Beethoven...? Well his sonatas are magnificent. I think you will find them different from the concertos (which were largely early works...) in that they are incredibly symphonic. Beethoven pushes the boundaries of what can be conveyed through the solo piano. The sonatas exhibit a broad array of "color", mood, as well as dynamics. I would probably begin to approach these with a collection of the most famous "name" sonatas (_Pathetique, Moonlight, Tempest, Appassionato_, etc...) and listen from the earliest to the latest... observing the growth in complexity and ambition.


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## Rasa

There's a series of Masterclasses with Barenboim that might get your interest piqued.


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## Jacob Singer

Il Seraglio said:


> How do you go about approaching Beethoven and Mozart's piano sonatas?


I try to sneak up on them when they're not looking. Works every time.


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## Kieran

You might work your way "back" to them: concertos, then piano quintets, quartets, trios, and so on, until you just have the piano standing alone.

I love Beethovens, as the highest form of expression for the solo paino - but Mozart's are growing on me more and more. They're so subtle, they're under-rated. Pick a popular one from either and repeat til you get it. Then apply the same process to the ones around it! :trp:

The great C-minor Mozart has a gorgeous middle movement: I'd listen to this a lot to get the flavour. For Beethoven - go straight in. Waldstein!:tiphat:


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## Lipatti

Beethoven has so many great sonatas that it's hard not to find a single one that you wouldn't like. I'm actually very fond of his early works, I find them very fresh and one can imagine the composer using them as a vehicle for showing off his virtuosic skills as he first came to Vienna. They have much of the feeling of a Mozart or Haydn sonata, but still with something unmistakably "Beethovenian" lol about them.

But if you like Schubert's late sonatas that much, I recommend you try one of Beethoven's own last three. The opus 109 is in particular a fantastic work.


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## Tschaikowsky

As other people have posted here, I would suggest listen away from the piano, to recordings of perhaps Barenboim, Ashkenazy, Brendel performing Beethoven and Mozart's sonatas. 

I would also suggest reading about both of these composers particularly the time that they composed particular sonatas you are interested in to see what was going on in their life to instigate the composition of that sonata. For instance, it may have been a commissioned work, perhaps a happy or sad event occurring in their lives during that time, etc. I always used to suggest this to my students regardless what piece of music they were playing, to give them better insights into not only the composer but why the piece was composed. I feel it helps from a pianistic standpoint to express better in your playing what the composer may have been trying to convey to the listener.


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## opus55

Start with the most famous sonatas and slowly move on to other sonatas. That's what I do - have a lot of patience. It took me years to start enjoying Beethoven's late quartets.. I find his piano sonatas rather difficult but still easier to appreciate than late quartets.


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## scytheavatar

Il Seraglio said:


> Did anyone else initially have difficulty appreciating works like Beethoven's _Pathetique_ sonata or Mozart's C minor sonata? When did the 'beauty' of these works eventually click for you? That is if they did at all.


Quite frankly, if you can't appreciate those works the pianists playing them must have been garbage, whomever they are. Beethoven often is guilty of writing music that are intellectual exercises, but the Pathetique is certainly one of the most accessible of his piano sonatas and not liking it is like not liking his Symphony no. 5. Not all of Mozart's piano sonatas are great, but the ones which are great are undeniably great, and the sonata no. 14 is certainly a great.


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## Vaneyes

To answer the OP's question, I'd probably offer limited advice...suggesting two CDs for each composer, of what I consider to be their most entertaining Piano Sonatas.


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## violadude

There is a free lecture series on all of the Beethoven piano sonatas by Andras Schiff on the internet that you might find helpful.
http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html


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## kv466

Oddly enough I find the Horrorwitz approach to Mozart's sonata kv333 to be lovely; and, obviously, I'm not a big fan but this piece in this performance I've always felt belongs to him


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## solkorset

I'm concentrating on Beethoven's piano sonatas these days, listening to a new one every day, but avoiding the name sonatas. I find that almost every one of them is a masterpiece. Take the one I heard today, no 6 in F major. I had never heard it before, but it's so delightful, nowhere boring. No 3 in C major is like heaven. No 7 in D major and no 10 in G major are also lovely. No 13 in E flat major ("quasi una fantasia") is unforgettable, and so is no 30 in E major. So much great music! Hats off in humility and gratitude.

If you want recommendations for pianist: Lortie, Louis; Becker, Markus; Hungerford, Bruce; Pontinen, Roland; Rorbech, Marie. Not in that order. Marie and Roland are my favourites.


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## haydnfan

I love Kempff in the Beethoven sonatas. When many pianists think that banging their keys loudly captures the spirit of Beethoven, Kempff with his soft playing finds the poetry in the music.


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## Ukko

*Herein lies the Pompous Response*

Harrumph.

Beethoven could probably compose a Classical sonata any time he wanted to, and sometimes he wanted to. Even very early, of the Opus 2 sonatas two are Classical, the first two movements of no. 3 are Classical - the last movement is... something else. Opus 8 is something else. The Opus 49 sonatas are Classical, Opp. 53 and 57 are _classic_ middle period Beethoven. The sonatas starting with Opus 101 aren't Romantic in form, but possess power and gravitas to match any solo piano works of any period.


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## Romantic Geek

Octo_Russ said:


> Personally i am not greatly attracted to Mozart's Sonatas, but Beethoven is certainly a more interesting proposition, and yet his 32 Sonatas are a daunting task, the solution for me was to pick a very few and get to know them well, the Sonatas with names seem to be the easiest to like, especially the 'Moonlight'.
> 
> However, if you are having a hard time with them, then why press the issue?, my advice would be to follow what you like/love, leave aside Beethoven and Mozart for the moment, and concentrate on Schubert, you say you're beginning to enjoy his works, in my mind Schubert's last Sonata [No21 D860], is the greatest Piano Sonata of all, there is no law which says you've got to like Beethoven and Mozart, i feel you will come back to these Composers later, and you'll be ready.
> 
> In the meantime, may i suggest along with more Schubert, maybe Rachmaninov too, especially his 24 Preludes and Etudes-Tableaux, and certainly more Bach, his Well-Tempered Clavier [48 Preludes & Fugues] are a delight to get to know.
> 
> Oh and by the way, you said "_are suitable only for serious listening not pleasure?_", in my opinion serious listening *is* a pleasure!, i hope this happens to you too.


Mozart grows on you over time. Trust me. I wasn't a huge fan of them, but now that I've used them as examples in my class I teach extensively, it's hard not to love them.


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## haydnfan

I've recently ordered Uchida's Mozart set and Buchbinder's Haydn set. I usually listen to PI recordings of those piano sonatas so this will be refreshing!


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## Jobe

> Mozart grows on you over time. Trust me. I wasn't a huge fan of them, but now that I've used them as examples in my class I teach extensively, it's hard not to love them.


I hear this a lot, Romantic Greek. It always sounded like a sort of curse Oo but I'm going to try listening to lots of Mozart to see if you and my music teachers are/were right. 

Maybe it's because I don't play enough Mozart at all for either instrument.


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## Romantic Geek

I like the playfulness of some of them. For instance, I think K. 331-333 are all excellent sonatas. You just have to get into the style to appreciate it sometimes.


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## Ravellian

I don't understand how you can't enjoy the Beethoven sonatas, especially the more famous ones. Start with those: Appassionata, Moonlight, Pathetique, Waldstein, etc. Then you can try the late ones, which are all very unique and sophisticated, or check out the younger ones. Many of the earlier sonatas are still very excellent, all written in the classical vein, particularly Op. 2/3, Op. 10/3, and all of Op. 31. 

As for Mozart, the first 7 or so keyboard sonatas are fairly immature works, nothing very remarkable. The rest are well-crafted and display as wide an emotional range as early to mid Beethoven. None of them are particularly virtuosic, though, except the last one, K457.


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## Romantic Geek

Ravellian said:


> I don't understand how you can't enjoy the Beethoven sonatas, especially the more famous ones. Start with those: Appassionata, Moonlight, Pathetique, Waldstein, etc. Then you can try the late ones, which are all very unique and sophisticated, or check out the younger ones. Many of the earlier sonatas are still very excellent, all written in the classical vein, particularly Op. 2/3, Op. 10/3, and all of Op. 31.
> 
> As for Mozart, the first 7 or so keyboard sonatas are fairly immature works, nothing very remarkable. The rest are well-crafted and display as wide an emotional range as early to mid Beethoven. None of them are particularly virtuosic, though, except the last one, K457.


I agree that the first FEW sonatas are immature, but to say that K. 283, K. 284, and K. 309 are nothing remarkable is, well...I disagree with that statement a lot.

Also, personally for me, the Waldstein's opening movement sounds like crap on modern day pianos. I'd love to hear it on period instruments, because the bass is just too muddy with today's instruments.


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## solkorset

As I said before I'm concentrating on Beethoven's piano sonatas these days, and am soaring toward the skies. The collection of 32 sonatas is a treasure trove. Here are some further recommendations: No. 24 in F sharp major, Op. 78 is a masterpiece. As for No. 25 in G major, Op. 79 my listener's diary says: Oh this one is delightful. My face is flooded with tears. I adore it. 

But today one that enchants me with supernatural powers: No. 27 in E minor, Op. 90. I listened to it three or four times today in its entirety, and many more times partially with a long range of different pianists. I have been searching in vain for the perfect interpretation. 

First I listened to Dieter Zechlin but was disappointed. Then tried Andreas Haefliger and was again discontented. Timothy Ehlen proved useless. Louis Lortie was rather good as usual, but still something missing here. I went on: Michael Houstoun went amiss at the very start. Alfred Brendel: The best so far but considerably short of ideal. Walter Gieseking: No no. Andrew Rangell: No, wrong tempo and rythm. Peter Serkin: Laughable. Robert Benz: Today's surprise; clearly the best so far and not at all bad, artistically rather convincing, but he too falls short of what I'm craving.

I don't give up. No 27 is very special and must be played by a god. I will be trying Gerard Willems and Anton Kuerti and Emil Gilels and Gerhard Oppitz in the coming days, but am not too optimistic. I was unable to find a Wilhelm Kempff recording of this one. Can anyone help me out?


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## Ravellian

^Have you tried John O'Conor? He's my favorite Beethoven pianist.


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## Curiosity

Im surprised to see more than a few recommendations for Gould's Beethoven. His Beethoven is awful imo, the words mechanical and cold come to mind. Not surprising since he's on record pretty much saying he hates Beethoven's music.


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## Kopachris

I don't know... I actually quite like B's first few sonatas. Of course, I like many of his later ones as well... but some (okay, mostly just Moonlight) have been played far too often.


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## Curiosity

I don't think it's possible to play the Moonlight too often.


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## fartwriggler

Open yr mind and ears and let the music do the rest....


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## jdavid

I have been drawn to Beethoven's music from my 10th year when I got an LP of the 7th Symphony. Mozart did not interest me except for the Piano Concerto in C major, No. 21, until I reached my early 30's and then I had an epiphany and could not listen to enough Mozart. I have Christoph Eschenbach's complete Mozart Sonatas (he won the International Mozart Competition in his young years) and Claude Frank's complete Beethoven Sonatas (American, studied with Schnabel among other important teachers). Both sets are extremely fine in my opinion. With Beethoven I would advise starting with the nicknamed sonatas such as _Waldstein, Tempest, Moonlight, Appassionata_, (but maybe not the _Hammerklavier_ for a while), the others, especially the _Tempest and Moonlight_ have always been popular in concert and on recital recordings. As for the Mozart, put on a disc of them and clean house  Maybe you'll grow to like them or not. Cheers.


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## martijn

It's such a pity people are so dismissive about the Mozart sonatas. The Beethoven sonatas are rightly praised, and works like the Pathetique, the Appassionata and the 32nd sonata are among Beethoven's greatest works, and they are some of the greatest sonatas of all. 

But it's a pity that some people speak with such dédain about the Mozart sonatas. First of all: is any of those people capable of writing something that even comes close to it? Silence. 

Then, someone called the first 7 sonatas immature and not remarkable. Well, there's a lot in these sonatas that is not immature and unremarkable: the complex harmonies in the first movement of kv280; the slow siciliano movement of the same sonata, which points forward to something that's to come; the original structure of kv282 with its poetic opening adagio; the energetic, symphonic opening movement of kv 284, and the wonderful variation movement at the end of that sonata; and the slow movement of kv309 with it's beautiful second theme, that returns decorated in the most subtle way. 

Besides, they are just great fun to play. It's always said that Mozart is so hard to play because everything is exposed, but I think it has just as much to do with the constant change of rhythm and mood. But they are so rewarding.

Kv310 and kv457 are definitely the greatest of them, but one sonata hasn't been mentioned here yet, I believe: kv533. The last movement, originally kv494, doesn't really belong there, I feel, but the first two movements are superb. They are full of interesting counterpoint and bold harmonies. Kv545 should also be mentioned, it's conventional, but as perfect as music can be, especially the opening movement, it's completely flawless.


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