# The Question Thread



## maestro267

I'm starting this thread for people to ask questions in that don't really deserve their own individual topic. It may help if those answering quote the question they're answering in their reply, thus saving confusion over which question is being answered. I shall start with something that's been bugging me for a while, which I need to find out fairly soon.

------------------------------

I've been trying to find out the premiere date of Vaughan Williams' Tallis Fantasia, but to no avail. I know it was 1910, and the closest I've got to (from a music magazine) is 'six weeks before the premiere of 'A Sea Symphony' which if I'm correct was sometime in Sep/Oct 1910. But I'd like to find out the exact date (if it's remembered), so I can play it on the actual centenary.

Does anyone here know?


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## joen_cph

Found this on the web, from www.readingsymphony.com:

_Notes on the Program by DR. RICHARD E. RODDA
Fantasia on a Theme by .................................Ralph Vaughan Williams
Thomas Tallis for Strings
(1872-1958)
Composed in 1910; revised in 1913 and 1919.
Premiered on September 6, 1910 in Gloucester, conducted by the composer._
_ The Tallis Fantasia of 1910 was the fruit of an immense musical background that Vaughan Williams had been accumulating since his student days twenty years before. The list of influences on the composer and on this particular work is long: he studied composition with Parry and Stanford, those twin paragons of Victorian musical virtue; he directed a Palestrina Society especially to learn the works of that Italian Renaissance master; he followed closely the revival of early, especially Elizabethan, music by the remarkable performer and scholar Arnold Dolmetsch; he avidly collected British folk songs with Gustav Holst; he spent two years compiling a new edition of the English Hymnal; and he refined his compositional style though study with Ravel in Paris. All of these experiences found their way into this exquisite Fantasia, which, though preceded by a number of songs, chamber pieces and orchestra scores, is the first work in which Vaughan Williams' unique genius was fully revealed" (..... etc.)._

Some sources mention a review of the premiered work in "The Times".

Dutch wikipedia mentions the London premiere:

_Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis, ook bekend als Tallis Fantasia, werd geschreven in 1910 door de Britse componist Ralph Vaughan Williams en voor de eerste maal uitgevoerd op 6 september 1910 in Gloucester Cathedral in Gloucester (tijdens het Three Choirs' Festival) door het London Symphony Orchestra onder leiding van de componist zelf. De Londense première was op 11 februari 1913 in de Queen's Hall door het New Symphony Orchestra onder leiding van de componist. De muziek werd herzien in 1913 en 1919.[1]_

Regards Joen_cph


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## maestro267

Thanks!


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## Argus

I'll post this question in here, since it'd probably sink like a stone if it was a thread unto its own.

What are some good books on the phyical properties of sound. A book that looks into things like timbre, frequency, ampitude, acoustics, the harmonic series, temperament, tuning, phase and such. I've noticed both Hindemith and Partch have wrote about some of these subjects and I'd guess Pythagoras mathematical works on the topic might be a useful starting place.

So, basically, can anyone recommend any interesting books that feature a very scientific/mathematic viewpoint on sounds and music but nothing that requires too extensive amount of prior mathematical knowledge to make sense of.

Wait, have I even asked a question there?

Well if not, that last sentence is definitely a question.


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## emiellucifuge

Your second sentence began with 'what' but did not end with a '?'

Anyway its probably better to look at a physicists point of view on this matter, rather than a composers.

Here is one well-rated book that ive managed to find:
http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Acoustics-Donald-E-Hall/dp/0534132480


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## AmateurComposer

*Sarasate plays Zigeunerweisen*

Pablo Sarasate was recorded playing his Zigeunerweisen in 1904. I would appreciate some comments about his performance as compared to later recordings by later virtuosi.






I do not mean the quality of this old recording or the fact that the slow part has been dropped. I mean his actual performance as far as can be judged by this recording.


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## lavenderchild

umm, if I may ask, can I know is there any sites where I can download nice symphonies or piano music? Especially those rip(?) from CDs. Thanks.


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## saratn

I am sorry I am probably posting this in the wrong spot. I was wondering if anybody knows who the best Performing Rights Organizations for classical? I wright my own music and do all the arraignments myself.


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## jurianbai

Argus said:


> What are some good books on the phyical properties of sound. A book that looks into things like timbre, frequency, ampitude, acoustics, the harmonic series, temperament, tuning, phase and such. I've noticed both Hindemith and Partch have wrote about some of these subjects and I'd guess Pythagoras mathematical works on the topic might be a useful starting place.
> 
> So, basically, can anyone recommend any interesting books that feature a very scientific/mathematic viewpoint on sounds and music but nothing that requires too extensive amount of prior mathematical knowledge to make sense of.


You should try books about Building Acoustic in Architecture area. Also people in Audio recording will have knowledge about this topic, their reading can be a source.


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## jurianbai

Why in OPERA the composer get the most credit? In Verdi's Requiem is Verdi also write the lyrics, explained to actor how to act their part? Design the stage and costume? This is should be a multi discipline art just like in movie.


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## Sid James

jurianbai said:


> Why in OPERA the composer get the most credit? In Verdi's Requiem is Verdi also write the lyrics, explained to actor how to act their part? Design the stage and costume? This is should be a multi discipline art just like in movie.


Verdi's _Requiem_, like other sacred works, is probably based on the original Latin text. I don't think he wrote the lyrics. I think that when composing his operas, Verdi mainly collaborated with librettists, but he may have also written the librettos of some of his operas (I think that Wagner wrote the librettos for all of this operas).

I suppose that the composer gets most of the credit because we have a culture that is very individualistic, and likes to focus on the composer rather than the librettist as well (who can be integral to the creation of the opera, just look at Mozart's partnership with Da Ponte, or Richard Strauss & von Hofmannsthal). Of course, you do get instances where the composer had virtually "total" control, like Wagner or Harry Partch. We tend to treat opera like literature (say like a Shakespeare play), in that we forget about others who were involved in making them, especially the librettist. As for the staging, acting, design, costume, lighting, etc. this is all brought together by the conductor &/or director). So yes, it is like a movie, where the director gets "top billing," although many others are involved and can be very important. Partnerships that I can think of that lasted through the production of many films, are like director Alfred Hitchcock & composer Bernard Hermann. They developed a very unique "brand" of thriller, and Hitchcock gave prominence equally to Hermann (and even the solo violinist in _Psycho_, if I remember correctly) in the opening credits. Another instance of this was a series of films in which director/actor Sir Laurence Olivier and composer William Walton were involved with (all Shakespearean). More recently, the work of director Peter Jackson & composer Howard Shore on the _Lord of the Rings _trilogy also fits this model. Certainly there are films like these, where I find not only the film itself but equally (if not more so) the music to be very memorable...


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## Weston

saratn said:


> . . .I wright my own music and do all the arraignments myself.


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## jurianbai

he is not very wrigth about that.

and thanks Andre.


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## Fsharpmajor

maestro267 said:


> I've been trying to find out the premiere date of Vaughan Williams' Tallis Fantasia, but to no avail. I know it was 1910, and the closest I've got to (from a music magazine) is 'six weeks before the premiere of 'A Sea Symphony' which if I'm correct was sometime in Sep/Oct 1910. But I'd like to find out the exact date (if it's remembered), so I can play it on the actual centenary.
> 
> Does anyone here know?


I might be able to find that out for you, I'll post back tomorrow.


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## jurianbai

Is it any detail scenario on how Bach can produce a one song per week job? I mean it is 7 days, how many days he think about the music, how many time to produce the physical document to rehearse etc? Sounds amusing and how is the quality of the songs?


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## nefigah

jurianbai said:


> Is it any detail scenario on how Bach can produce a one song per week job? I mean it is 7 days, how many days he think about the music, how many time to produce the physical document to rehearse etc? Sounds amusing and how is the quality of the songs?


These songs to which you refer comprise many of his cantatas, which are all of good quality! Bach was quite consistent in his output. There are so many cantatas that it can be tough to recommend a specific recording, so you might want to look at one of those cheap "everything Bach wrote" sets for your initial taste.

From what I recall, he had the cantatas generally thought up by Wednesday, and he enlisted his many children to help him create written copies of the music for the choir. They didn't get too much time to rehearse, though!


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## Sid James

Yes, there was discussion of Bach's working methods in the tv documentary series (produced right here in Australia!) _Classical Destinations_ (Series 1 of 2). From what I remember, Bach had a pretty rigorous & well organised schedule, from composing the cantata early on in the week, then copying the parts & giving it to the musicians, and then rehearsing towards the end of the week before the "premiere" at mass on Sunday. I'm pretty amazed by this, will have to get a good cd of some of his cantatas, as so far, I've only heard excerpts, or the highlights played in that episode of the tv series (an excellent series, discussing lives of many of the great and even not so high profile composers, presented very well by Simon Callow- you get a sense that he is not simply reading autocues, but he actually "cares" about the music, etc.) It's on amazon.com if you want to grab it. Recommended...


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## nefigah

Dug up a recommendation from a former professor and self-admitted Bach fanatic regarding cantatas, if this is helpful to anyone:


> (I'd recommend knowing cantatas 4, 12, 21, 51, 54, 61, 80, 82, 106, 140, 147, 196, and 208-that would be a "good start"). The following artists provide exceptional performances:
> Concentus Musicus Wien, Nikolaus Harnoncourt (complete recording of all the cantatas-Teldec label)
> Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchtestra and Choir (complete set-Erato label)
> Philippe Herreweghe (Harmonia Mundi) - selected cantatas
> Cantus Cölln, conducted by Konrad Junghänel (Harmonia Mundi)


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## jurianbai

thanks Nefigah and Andre, will check it in my library first.


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## jurianbai

why Yanni can not categorized as classical music but new age? is it because too simple, but it has more notes than 4"33' ?

see










and thanks in advance


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## nefigah

Well, quite frankly, 4'33"'s classification as either "classical" or "music" is somewhat contentious. Really it's because a "classical" composer "composed" it.

I imagine the beef with Yanni is similar to the beef with film music, easy-listening orchestral pieces, etc.: lack of development of thematic material. But I'm sure someguy will pop in and point out that the notion of categorizing music is all very vague and doesn't bear discussing


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## starry

nefigah said:


> These songs to which you refer comprise many of his cantatas, which are all of good quality! Bach was quite consistent in his output. There are so many cantatas that it can be tough to recommend a specific recording, so you might want to look at one of those cheap "everything Bach wrote" sets for your initial taste.
> 
> From what I recall, he had the cantatas generally thought up by Wednesday, and he enlisted his many children to help him create written copies of the music for the choir. They didn't get too much time to rehearse, though!


I wouldn't say they are all equally good, but there is quite a lot of good music.

Arias tend to be either soothing flowing ones, happy upbeat or sad and searching. Choruses are normally quite grand, and some instrumentals sprinkled are here and there.

Harnoncourt was the first I think to help record all of them, people question now his use of children as soloists which is thought not to be so authentic. His was the first version I heard in the 90s. More recently I heard the version off Brilliant Classics which is quite good. The Rilling version I haven't heard yet but is quite acclaimed.


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## jurianbai

nefigah said:


> Well, quite frankly, 4'33"'s classification as either "classical" or "music" is somewhat contentious. Really it's because a "classical" composer "composed" it.
> 
> I imagine the beef with Yanni is similar to the beef with film music, easy-listening orchestral pieces, etc.: lack of development of thematic material. But I'm sure someguy will pop in and point out that the notion of categorizing music is all very vague and doesn't bear discussing


I'll take that. In Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata there is also simplicity and ear orientated music. My non classical pianist can improvised much more beautiful + complex on this piece. But still it is one of unquestionable classical masterpiece.


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## jurianbai

Who owned the copyright for classical music? For older stuff like Bach's or Mozart's is there a copyright issue? For newer stuff by living composer can we buy the score then record or perform the piece for commercial purposes?


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## Sid James

Music that has had it's copyright expire is in the* public domain*. The length of period depends on the country you're talking about. I think that generally, it's about 50-70 years after the death of the creator. Anyway, here's the wikipedia article on the public domain:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain


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## Vaneyes

While surfing this morning, I discovered classicalsource.com is *not* up and running. There is a notice--This account has been suspended. Does anyone have any news on this development? Thanks.


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## Kopachris

nefigah said:


> I imagine the beef with Yanni is similar to the beef with *film music*, easy-listening orchestral pieces, etc.: *lack of development of thematic material*. But I'm sure someguy will pop in and point out that the notion of categorizing music is all very vague and doesn't bear discussing


See Hans Zimmer's soundtrack for _Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End_. Beautiful development of a couple themes through the course of the movie. (I'd love to get the sheet music for that one! ) Michael Giacchino's soundtrack for _Star Trek_ is pretty good, too, though not quite as good, using a different theme for just about every track. These are in sharp contrast with composers like John Williams, who are great at writing unique motives, but don't develop them any! :angry:


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## Weston

Is there a term for beginning a phrase a little sooner than expected? It happens a lot in rock music for emphasis and to make things seem to be in an awful rush.

something like:

Q-q-q-q | Q-q-q-q | Q-q-q-Q-|-q-q-q-q
..........................................\Tie/
where Q = emphasised quarter note and q=unaccented quarter note. (I hope these symbols line up the way I intended.) I don't think it's hemiola.


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## Vaneyes

Weston said:


> Is there a term for beginning a phrase a little sooner than expected? It happens a lot in rock music for emphasis and to make things seem to be in an awful rush.
> 
> something like:
> 
> Q-q-q-q | Q-q-q-q | Q-q-q-Q-|-q-q-q-q
> ..........................................\Tie/
> where Q = emphasised quarter note and q=unaccented quarter note. (I hope these symbols line up the way I intended.) I don't think it's hemiola.


Overlapping, juxtaposition.


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## sospiro

Argus said:


> I'll post this question in here, since it'd probably sink like a stone if it was a thread unto its own.
> 
> What are some good books on the phyical properties of sound. A book that looks into things like timbre, frequency, ampitude, acoustics, the harmonic series, temperament, tuning, phase and such. I've noticed both Hindemith and Partch have wrote about some of these subjects and I'd guess Pythagoras mathematical works on the topic might be a useful starting place.
> 
> So, basically, can anyone recommend any interesting books that feature a very scientific/mathematic viewpoint on sounds and music but nothing that requires too extensive amount of prior mathematical knowledge to make sense of.
> 
> Wait, have I even asked a question there?
> 
> Well if not, that last sentence is definitely a question.


Have only just found your question & don't know if this is the sort of thing you mean.

I was in Barcelona recently & found this little shop (& a guy straight out of central casting playing the piano!)

 

http://www.casabeethoven.com/

I bought a book (translated into English) called Acoustic Spaces of the Voice by Myriam Alió which you might be able to buy online from the shop.

It's primarily for singers but the information is fascinating & if you're interested in opera it gives an insight on the complexity & difficulty of classical singing. Or how to make a beautiful loud sound just with head, tongue and air!


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## Argus

sospiro said:


> Have only just found your question & don't know if this is the sort of thing you mean.
> 
> I was in Barcelona recently & found this little shop (& a guy straight out of central casting playing the piano!)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.casabeethoven.com/
> 
> I bought a book (translated into English) called Acoustic Spaces of the Voice by Myriam Alió which you might be able to buy online from the shop.
> 
> It's primarily for singers but the information is fascinating & if you're interested in opera it gives an insight on the complexity & difficulty of classical singing. Or how to make a beautiful loud sound just with head, tongue and air!


Thanks for the tip. It must be a pretty rare book as I can't find hide nor hair of it on Google.

I'm expecting this to be arriving through my letterbox sometime this week:










That book emielliucifuge recommended looked good but was a bit above what I wanted to pay. At £10 that Benade book looks like it'll cover a lot of what I am interested in.


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## Vaneyes

Never mind, it's back up.

http://www.classicalsource.com/home.php


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## nefigah

Weston said:


> Is there a term for beginning a phrase a little sooner than expected? It happens a lot in rock music for emphasis and to make things seem to be in an awful rush.
> 
> something like:
> 
> Q-q-q-q | Q-q-q-q | Q-q-q-Q-|-q-q-q-q
> ..........................................\Tie/
> where Q = emphasised quarter note and q=unaccented quarter note. (I hope these symbols line up the way I intended.) I don't think it's hemiola.


When I was a drummer, we just called this "rushing"--purposely (well, hopefully) playing a bit before the metronome. A general term for screwing with tempo for emotional effect is "rubato," which may or may not apply here.


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## Edward Elgar

I have a small question, how many hours / days do you think it would take to perform all 32 Beethoven sonatas, taking into sleeping and eating account.


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## Weston

If I've added correctly I get 626 minutes for all 32, which is a little over 10 hours, so you could do it in a day assuming you were without emotion. Longer if you are sane.


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## Weston

Does anyone know if the _Air pur les Sauvages _ section of Rameau's _Les Indes galantes_ is supposed to be evocative of the DUM-dum-dum-dum DUM-dum-dum-dum drum beat often associated with Native Americans in the movies? It sounds that way to me. If so, it's remarkable how far back these stereotypes begin.





That performance is a little faster than I am used to hearing it.


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## joen_cph

Interesting subject. Have been googling a bit regarding Rameau´s possible knowledge and views,

cf. a page on the site "streetprophets": Europeans and Indians; by slksfca

_In 1725, a group of Indians (...) were sent to Paris, France where they met with the Director of the Company of the Indies, and the Duke and Duchess de Bourbon. The chiefs were given a complete French outfit (...). They were presented to King Louis XV and they performed a dance at the opera. The French King gave each of the chiefs a royal medallion, a rifle, a sword, and a watch.

Among those present on that occasion was (....) Rameau. The experience fired his imagination:
It was while the chiefs were in Paris that (...) Rameau attended a performance given by them at the Theatre Italien. At this performance they danced three kinds of dance: the Peace, War and Victory dances. Rameau was inspired by this to write a piece for harpsichord entitled Les Sauvages (....)

Les Indes galantes is not burdened much in the way of plot (...) the goddess of youth, Hébé, throws a party, during which she encourages the youth of Europe to dance and sing in celebration of love (a sort of 18th-century Woodstock) - when suddenly Bellone, the goddess of war, lures them all away from these Arcadian pleasures (...) Hébé calls for assistance from her buddy Cupid, the god of love, asking him to send his minions to "les Indes" (...) to check on the state of love in those parts, and to see about recruiting a fresh crop of party guests (...) the premise is laid for (....) Turkey, Peru, Persia, and the wilds of North America (...) it's generally the foreigners (...) who are noble and virtuous - and European civilization suffers (...) "Les Sauvages" (....) tells the story of a Spaniard and a Frenchman (...) in love with an Indian maiden. She rejects them both, however, in favor of a man of her own people, telling the Spaniard that he's too dour and jealous, and the Frenchman that he's too flighty and inconstant (...). The (...) entire opéra-ballet ends with the Indians celebrating a treaty with the Europeans; they sing, and perform a (....) Dance of the Great Pipe of Peace, (....) set to Rameau's harpsichord tune (...):

Here in our forest retreats, 
Greatness, do not come offering your false attractions! 
Heaven has made them for innocence and for peace. 
Let us rejoice in our wilderness, 
Let us rejoice in peaceful things. 
(...) .... _

As it is well-known, Rameau was an acquaintance of Voltaire and worked with him as regards "La Princesse de Navarre", at least (1745). Voltaire´s open-minded attitude towards other cultures has been described and analyzed by many writers, Rousseau´s love of nature and a "natural" state likewise. For a history of the knowledge on North American music in Europe, other sources would have to be consulted to decide whether the drum rhythm is associated with that of other orchestral music or ouvertures of the day, or if it is indeed influenced by "real" Indian music; agree, it "sounds" so ...


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## Chris

I've never heard Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe and I would like to get a CD of this music. But I am confused about Suite no. 1. Reading through my 2008 Penguin Guide the Suite no. 2 is represented by numerous recordings but Suite no. 1 only appears once, on a mono recording from 1953 (French National RO, Cluytens). Is the Suite no 1 superfluous?

I wouldn't mind getting the whole ballet but the most highly recommended versions are antediluvian (Boston SO, Munch, 1950s; LSO, Monteux, 1959).


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## joen_cph

The ballet and the suites are some of the highlights of classical music, also worth having in more than one recording. Among the both-suites-recordings, there is a fine issue by _Celibidache and the München PO_, first on the label "originals", with good sound. An interpretation of the 2nd suite by him is also available on DG. Likewise there is a relatively modern decca issue with _Stokowski_. These are all glorious recordings.


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## jurianbai

Is there any such thing as left handed violin, cello version? as in guitar. if yes, any example of this including the practitioner (violinist)?


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## AmateurComposer

jurianbai said:


> Is there any such thing as left handed violin, cello version? as in guitar. if yes, any example of this including the practitioner (violinist)?


I knew a boy, a violin student, who lost a number of his left fingers in an accident that required amputation. He continued studying the violin by bowing with his left hand and fingering with his right one. I believe that he needed to reverse the order of the strings on his instrument.


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## jurianbai

yap, physically violin quite symetrical, but how about the bridge? will it a problem since it doesn't looks symetric?


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## Signore

I think the bridge needs to be changed... You know, usually bridges are not symetric, the E and A string are usually lower than D and G, because thicker strings vibrate more and if they were at the same distance from the fingerboard, it would make noise 

And you can't just rotate it because the back part of the bridge is not equal to que front part (but I'm not sure of it)...


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## Huilunsoittaja

Is piano solo music considered chamber music?


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## nefigah

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Is piano solo music considered chamber music?


I believe it certainly could be, though most often it seems to get its own category, with the term "chamber music" tending to imply small ensemble works.


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## Weston

When you hear a "whack!" sound in a string quartet or ensemble, is this written into the score, or is it a product of our modern, too realistic recording techniques? (e.g. similar to when you hear the clickety-clack of oboe keys I never noticed until digital recording became commonplace.) I heard a distinct "whack!" while listening to the first Janacek string quartet earlier. It seemed out of place to be honest.


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## maestro267

A question directed to horn players in particular:

Can you play the horn without holding your hand inside the bell, and if you can, does it affect the sound?


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## SuperTonic

Weston said:


> When you hear a "whack!" sound in a string quartet or ensemble, is this written into the score, or is it a product of our modern, too realistic recording techniques? (e.g. similar to when you hear the clickety-clack of oboe keys I never noticed until digital recording became commonplace.) I heard a distinct "whack!" while listening to the first Janacek string quartet earlier. It seemed out of place to be honest.


It depends, in some cases it is notated. Bartok in particular is known for this, it's called a Bartok pizzicato in which the performer is instructed to pluck their strings hard enough to snap it back against the fingerboard. Some composers also include instructions for performers to hit their instruments (string players hate this by the way; for any composers out there please don't do this, this is what percussion instruments are for.)

However, most of the time any percussive sounds from a string ensemble can be dismissed as unintended. If it seemed out of place it probably was an accident.


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## Argus

> A question directed to horn players in particular:
> 
> Can you play the horn without holding your hand inside the bell, and if you can, does it affect the sound?


I am not a horn player but I know a bit about acoustics. Placing your hand inside the bell does affect the sound and has become a useful way of creating a desirable tone. Any object placed inside the bell of any brass instrument will alter the amount of resonances and the input impedance of the instrument. Hand stopping allowed valveless horns to produce frequencies outside of their natural harmonic series. I'm not sure on this but I think the hand in bell also raises the players upper range for the French horn.

Technical question.

What is the shortest time a sound can last whilst remaining audible to the human ear? So how many milliseconds or nanoseconds is the lowest limit duration for the ear to be able to detect a soundwave. And does the amplitude/loudness and frequency rate have any effect on this time limit? So will a louder or higher pitched sound be audible in a shorter time span? Is there even a limit or can even insanely short sounds be perceived?

And a question for woodwind players. When playing solo do you play the equal tempered or just intoned version of the note in relation to the tonic? Or has the instrument maker already determined this by the placement of the tone holes along the instrument. I've been learning about the workings of all the families of instruments and by far the most confusing for me are the woodwinds.


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## maestro267

In Vaughan Williams' Ninth Symphony, he calls for both a tam-tam and a 'large gong'. Where in the symphony does this large gong appear?


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## Ever6477

It's been driving me crazy for months, but no one has been able to help me, so I thought I'd come to some experts. I heard part of a piece in a movie trailer that I have not been able to identify. The movie "Frontier of Dawn" and the piece I'm interested in comes in at about :33. Here is the link:
http://www.trailerspy.com/trailer/3651/Frontier-of-Dawn-Trailer

Please let me know if you can help me identify the composer!
Thanks!


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## Petwhac

Ever6477 said:


> It's been driving me crazy for months, but no one has been able to help me, so I thought I'd come to some experts. I heard part of a piece in a movie trailer that I have not been able to identify. The movie "Frontier of Dawn" and the piece I'm interested in comes in at about :33. Here is the link:
> http://www.trailerspy.com/trailer/3651/Frontier-of-Dawn-Trailer
> 
> Please let me know if you can help me identify the composer!
> Thanks!


Last movement of Beethoven's 'Moonlight' Sonata


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## jurianbai

What is the reason behind choosing specific key in classical music? Especially in symphony where many instrument involved. I understand in some instrument , like guitar, the different key can created different tune, but in piano I think not much different play in C or F#, only harder.


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## Huilunsoittaja

jurianbai said:


> What is the reason behind choosing specific key in classical music? Especially in symphony where many instrument involved. I understand in some instrument , like guitar, the different key can created different tune, but in piano I think not much different play in C or F#, only harder.


Well, first, there is reason of musical inspiration. A composer could have thought up a melody, and it just happens to be in A flat major in his head, so thus he would write it down that way. Also, sometimes a composer would choose to write a song in a certain key, because he wants a particular timbre, such as cold or warm. Then, there is practicality. Take preludes for piano: the main objective is to get one in every key, major and/or minor, so the composer would just have to work it out: if they need a melody in g# minor, they do it.

Connected to practicality, the situation with symphonies. It's much less practical to make a symphony _based _in something like F# major, because 1) it's harder, even with transposing instruments 2) trickier to modulate. Supposedly, if a composer wants to modulate the key in the movement, or for another movement, the key signature would become more complex: ex. some good modulation keys for Bb major are Eb, F, and d, but are still easy to play. However, with F# major, you would have C#, B, a#, which are all awkward keys to stay in for a long time. So instead, it's easier to modulate _into _are harder key, rather than _base _a symphony in that key.

As for piano, keys with many sharps/flats tend to be easier to play for pianists, since they have more "anchor" black notes, or notes they can remember never to use the thumb on, etc.


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## Edward Elgar

I've pressed a button that's made the text really small. How do I correct this?


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## sospiro

Edward Elgar said:


> I've pressed a button that's made the text really small. How do I correct this?


Not sure how to do it Firefox but in IE go to 'view' & 'text size'


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## Edward Elgar

Is there a BBC Proms thread?


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## jurianbai

Why composer rarely give official nickname to their work? As long as I remember all well known pieces which get nicknamed destined to be popular. As in Eroica Symphony, Americana quartet, Pathetique sonata etc. Why wouldn't composer learn a bit about marketing their piece of music?


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## Sid James

I think Beethoven wanted to name the third after Napoleon, but crossed out the dedication and dedicated it to "a great (unnamed) hero," thus the title.

I know that Mahler hated the titile "Song of the night" that was given to his 7th symphony. I think that in many cases, publishers just attached a title to such works, so that they could be better marketed. This was especially the case with Haydn, he didn't name the 101st "The Clock" himself (& probably none of the others either?).

But I think that things changed after the first world war. I'm pretty sure that all of the titles of Shostakovich's symphonies were given by the composer himself, for example...


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## Weston

When I see photographs of composers before 1900 or so, a question always comes to mind.




























Did they have combs before 1900?


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## Aramis

What do you want from Berlioz? His hair both on photos and portraits seem to be very skillfully shaped.

Besides, they were too disturbed by their musical ideas and they had no time for such nonsenses as combing.

And:










Many sources say that Shostakovich also often had antenna on top of his head.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Varese.............


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## Weston

Wait -- . Never mind. I withdraw my question.


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## Toccata

In the process of perusing this thread I have just spotted that member Aramis has been "temporarily banned".

I have no idea what "offence" he may have committed but it's a shame that he finds himself on the wrong side of the Forum Rules of this place. I don't always agree with his opinions but I do find him amusing and interesting, and he is one of the very few people here who has a good musical knowledge.

From a casual glance at the list of the more senior former Members, it would seem that most of the more interesting and genuinely knowlegeable ones this Forum have either left or been banned. Perhaps that's the way the powers-that-be of this Forum like things: confined largely to bland, sweet, and essentially facile discussion and useless polls by a bunch of newbies still in awe of Mozart's Requiem or Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata or some other such thing.


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## rillz949

*Performance Critique*

Just looking for someone to critique the violin performance. See video link below


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## Aramis

Opal said:


> In the process of perusing this thread I have just spotted that member Aramis has been "temporarily banned".
> 
> I have no idea what "offence" he may have committed but it's a shame that he finds himself on the wrong side of the Forum Rules of this place. I don't always agree with his opinions but I do find him amusing and interesting, and he is one of the very few people here who has a good musical knowledge.


Very glad to read such remark I am. Especially after I've heard no fanfares when I returned. I expected that there will be great singing contest to celebrate, with knights, dames and stuff, where is it all?

C'MON, YOU CAN ALREADY JUMP OUT AND SHOUT: "SURPRISE!", I'M REALLY HERE!


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## Weston

Why isn't there a Beethoven catalog as there is for Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, etc? Or is there? And what would you call it if you were to make one? LvBWV?


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## Toccata

Weston said:


> Why isn't there a Beethoven catalog as there is for Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, etc? Or is there? And what would you call it if you were to make one? LvBWV?


One could ask the same question in respect of various other famous composers for whom Opus numbers alone suffice to refer to their ouput: e.g. Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Stravinsky, Ravel, Sibelius.

I would suggest that the explanation is hardly rocket science. Presumably it rests on the principle of "needs must" (or necessity compels). Because Beethoven's output was already well documented under the standard Opus number system - this due to the organised way he worked and recorded his own output - there was no need to invent anything else.

Not so, however, with regard to the works of Mozart or Schubert, to name but two cases where there was much confuson and uncertainty about what they actually wrote, and when. It took the efforts of later musicologists (Ludwig von Köchel and Otto Deutsch, respectively) to define and estimate the chronological order of their works, which had hitherto been a matter of much uncertainty.

Lastly, I wouldn't want Beethoven's output re-labelled in any way. The Opus number system works perfectly well. Here I exclude the separate WoO and Hess catalogues.


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## Ukko

Opal said:


> [snip]
> Lastly, I wouldn't want Beethoven's output re-labelled in any way. The Opus number system works perfectly well. Here I exclude the separate WoO and Hess catalogues.


You covered the subject well, Opal. Beethoven's opus numbers aren't perfect as a guide to date-of-composition (some of the high numbers would be low numbers in such a guide) but the dates are documented if one wants to look. If you listen to Op. 104, you know it isn't really 'late'. Plus, I'm used to the opus numbers as they are, and don't need to be any more confused than is my normal state.

The WoO numbers are all over the place though. Is there a by-composition-date listing of them? a rough approximation would do. Actually, I think I've seen such a list; now where did I see it...?


----------



## Toccata

Hilltroll72 said:


> The WoO numbers are all over the place though. Is there a by-composition-date listing of them? a rough approximation would do. Actually, I think I've seen such a list; now where did I see it...?


Below is the list of WoO [Werke ohne Opuszah] I have. It comprises 205 works, some doubtful. I've had it for so long I can't recall where I got it from. I can't vouch for its accuracy in terms of description, order or dates.

It's fun trying to "bag" them all. I find that the BBC's Radio 3 station is quite a good source. I scan its schedules from time to time to see if I can spot anything I don't have, and if so I grab it via the BBC i player no matter it may be. I have about half the total WoO.

As will be seen, there is a rough correspondence between number and date of composition.

Beethoven's Works without Opus Numbers (WoO):

1 *** Musik zu einem Ritterballett [1790-1]
2 *** Tarpeja (incidental music; just two pcs: Triumphal March & Intro. to Act 2) [1813]
3 *** Gratulations-Menuett (orch) [1822]
4 *** Piano Concerto in Eb [1784]
5 *** Violin Concerto mvmt in C [c1790-2]
6 *** Rondo in Bb for pf & orch (original finale of Op.19) [bfr 1794]
7 *** 12 Minuets (orch) [1795]
8 *** 12 German Dances (orch) [1795]
9 *** 6 Minuets [nd]
10 *** 6 Minuets [1795]
11 *** 7 Landler (pf) [?1798]
12 *** 12 Minuets (orch) (probably by Carl van Beethoven)
13 *** 12 German Dances (survives in pf version only) [nd]
14 *** 12 Contredanses (orch) [completed 1802]
15 *** 6 Landler (2 vns, bass) [1801-2]
16 *** 12 Ecossaises (2 vns, bass) (doubtful)
17 *** 11 Moedlinger Tanze (orch) (doubtful?) [1819]
18 *** March in F "fur die boehmische Landwehr" (wd band) [1809, trio added ?1822-3]
19 *** "Yorck" March in F (wd band) [1810]
20 *** March in C (wd band) [bfr 1823]
21 *** Polonaise in D (wd band) [1810]
22 *** Ecossaise in D (wd band) [1810]
23 *** Ecossiase in G (wd band) [?1810]
24 *** Military March in D (wd band) [1816]
25 *** Rondino in Eb for 2 ob, 2 cl, 2 hn, 2 bsn (prob. orig. finale of Op. 103) added ?1822-3]
26 *** Allegro & Menuetto in G for 2 flutes [1792]
27 *** 3 Duos for clar & bsn: C, F, Bb (probably spurious) [?1792]
28 *** 8 Variations in C on "Lo ci darem" from Mozart's Don Giovanni (2 obs, eng hn) [?1795]
29 *** March in Bb (2 cl, 2 bsn, 2 hn) [1798]
30 *** 3 Equali for 4 trbns: d, D, Bb [1812]
31 *** ?
32 *** Duo in Eb for va & vc, "with two obbligato eyeglasses" [1796-7]
33 *** 5 Pieces for a mechanical clock: 1. Adagio in F [?c1799], 2. Scherzo in G [1799-1800],3. Allegro in G [?c1799], 4. Allegro in C [?1794], 5. Minuet in C [?1794]
34 *** Duet in A for 2 vns [1822]
35 *** Canon in 2 parts (2 vns?) for Otto de Boer [1825]
36 *** 3 Piano Quartets in Eb, D, C [1785]
37 *** Trio in G for pf, fl, bsn [1786]
38 *** Piano Trio #9 in Eb [?1791]
39 *** Piano Trio #8 in Bb [1812]
40 *** 12 Variations in F on "Se vuol ballare" from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro (pf, vn) [1792-3]
41 *** Rondo in G for pf & vn [1793-4]
42 *** 6 German Dances (vn, pf) [1796]
43/1 *** Sonatina in c (mand, hpsch) [1796]
43/2 *** Adagio in Eb (mand, hpsch) [1796]
44/1 *** Sonatina in C (mand, hpsch) [1796]
44/2 *** Andante & Variations in D (mand, hpsch) [1796]
45 *** 12 Variations in G on Handel's "See the Conquering Hero Comes" from Judas Maccabaeus (vc, pf) [1796]
46 *** 7 Variations in Eb on "Bei Moennern" from Mozart's Magic Flute (vc, pf) [1801]
47 *** 3 Piano Sonatas, "Elector": Eb, f, D [1782-3]
48 *** Rondo in C (pf) [1783]
49 *** Rondo in A (pf) [?1783]
50 *** Pf. Sonatina in F [bfr 1793]
51 *** Pf. Sonata in C (2nd mvmt completed by Ferdinand Ries) [?1797-8]
52 *** Presto in c (pf) (probably originally intended for Op. 10 #1) [?1795]
53 *** Allegretto in c (pf) (probably originally intended for Op. 10 #1) [1796-7]
54 *** Bagatelle in C, "Lustig-Traurig" (pf) [?1802]
55 *** Prelude in f (pf) [bfr 1805]
56 *** Allegretto in C (pf) [1803]
57 *** Andante favori in F (pf) (originally intended for Op. 53) [1805]
58 *** Cadenzas to the 1st & 3rd mvmts of Mozart's K.466 [?1809]
59 *** Bagatelle in a, "Fur Elise" (pf) [1810]
60 *** Bagatelle in Bb (pf) [1818]
61 *** Allegretto in b (pf) [1821]
61a *** Allegretto quasi andante in g (pf) [1825]
62 *** String Quintet in C (frgmt) [1826]
63 *** 9 Vars in c on a march by Dressler (pf) [1782]
64 *** 6 Vars in F on a Swiss air (pf or harp) [bfr 1793]
65 *** 24 Vars in D on Righini's air "Venni amore" (pf) [1790-1]
66 *** 13 Vars in A on Dittersdorf's air "Es war einmal" (pf) [1792]
67 *** 8 Vars in C on a theme by Count von Waldstein (pf 4 hands) [?1792]
68 *** 12 Vars in C on a minuet from Haibel's Le nozze disturbate (pf) [1795]
69 *** 9 Vars in A on Paisiello's air "Quant' o piu bello" (pf) [1795]
70 *** 6 Vars in G on Paisiello's duet "Nel cor piu" (pf) [1795]
71 *** 12 Vars in A on the Russian dance from P. Vranicka's Waldmadchen (pf) [1796-7]
72 *** 8 Vars in C on Gretry's air "Une fievre brulante" (pf) [?1795]
73 *** 10 Vars in Bb on Salieri's air "La stessa, la stessissima" (pf) [1799]
74 *** 6 Vars in D on "Ich denke dein" (pf 4 hands) [vars 1,2,5,6: 1799; vars 3,4: 1803]
75 *** 7 Vars in F on Winter's quartet "Kind, willst du" (pf) [1799]
76 *** 8 Vars in F on Sussmayr's trio "Tundeln und Scherzen" (pf) [1799]
77 *** 6 Very Easy Vars in G on an orig. theme (pf) [1800]
78 *** 7 Vars in C on "God Save the King" (pf) [1802-3]
79 *** 5 Vars in D on "Rule, Britannia" (pf) [1803]
80 *** 32 Vars in c (pf) [1806]
81 *** Allemande in A (pf) [1795]
82 *** Minuet in Eb (pf) [?1783]
83 *** 6 Ecossaises in Eb [nd]
84 *** Waltz in Eb (pf) [1824]
85 *** Waltz in D (pf) [1825]
86 *** Ecossaise in Eb (pf) [1825]
87 *** Cantata on the death of Emperor Joseph II [1790]
88 *** Cantata on the accession of Emperor Leopold II [1790]
89 *** Bass Aria, "Prufung des Kussens" [c1790-2]
90 *** Bass Aria, "Mit Modeln sich vertragen" [c1790-2]
91 *** 2 Arias for Umlauf's Die schoene Schusterin [?1796]
92 *** Soprano Aria, "Primo amore piacer del ciel" [c1790-2]
92a *** Soprano Aria, "No, non turbarti" [1801-2]
93 *** Duet for Soprano & Tenor, "Nei giorni tuoi felici" [1802-3]
94 *** "Germania!" (finale for a Singspiel) [1814]
95 *** Chorus, "Ihr weisen Groender" [1814]
96 *** Leonore Prohaska (incidental music) [1815]
97 *** "Es ist vollbracht" (finale for a Singspiel) [1815]
98 *** Chorus, "Wo sich die Pulse" (for "Consecration of the House") [1822]
99 *** ?Exercises in Italian declamation prepared for Salieri [c1801-2]
100 *** Canon, "Schuppanzigh ist ein Lump" [1801]
101 *** Canon, "Graf, Graf, Graf, Graf" [1802]
102 *** Song of farewell (TTB), "Die Stunde schloegt" [1814]
103 *** Cantata campestre (STTB, pf), "Un lieto Brindisi" [1814]
104 *** Song of the monks (TTB), "Rasch tritt der Tod" [1817]
105 *** Wedding song with chorus, "Auf, Freunde, singt dem Gott" [1819]
106 *** Birthday cantata for Prince Lobkowitz, "Es lebe unser theurer Foerst" (S, chorus, pf) [1823]
107 *** Song, "Schilderung eines Madchens" [?1783]
108 *** Song, "An einen Soeugling" [1783]
109 *** Song, "Trinklied" [?1790]
110 *** Song, "Elegie auf den Tod eines Pudels" [?1791]
111 *** Song, "Punschlied" [c1790-2]
112 *** Song, "An Laura" [?1792]
113 *** Song, "Klage" [?1790]
114 *** Song, "Selbst gesprach" [?1792]
115 *** Song, "An Minna" [?1792]
116 *** Song, "Que le temps me dure" [1793]
117 *** Song with unison voices, "Der freie Mann" [1792, rev.Ì94]
118 *** 2 Songs, "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten" & "Gegenliebe" [1794-5]
119 *** Song, "O care selve" [1794]
120 *** Song, "Man strebt die Flamme zu verhehlen" [c1800-02]
121 *** Song, "Abschiedsgesang an Wiens Boerger" [1796]
122 *** Song with chorus, "Kriegslied der-sterreicher" [1797]
123 *** Song, "Zoertliche Liebe" [?1795]
124 *** Song, "La partenza" [?1795-6]
125 *** Song, "La tiranna" [1798-9]
126 *** Song, "Die Flamme lodert" (Opferlied) [1794; rev.1801-02]
127 *** Song, "Neue Liebe, neues Leben" [1798-9]
128 *** Song, "Plaisir d'aimer" [1799]
129 *** Song, "Der Wachtelschlag" [1803]
130 *** Song, "Gedenke mein!" [?1804-5; rev.1819-20]
131 *** ?
132 *** Song, "Als die Geliebte sich trennen wollte" [1806]
133 *** Song, "In questa tomba oscura" [1807]
134 *** Song, "Sehnsucht" (4 settings) [1808]
135 *** Song, "Die laute Klage" [c1815?]
136 *** Song, "Andenken" [1809]
137 *** Song, "Lied aus der Ferne" [1809]
138 *** Song, "Der Jungling in der Fremde" [1809]
139 *** Song, "Der Liebende" [1809]
140 *** Song, "An die Geliebte" [1811, 2d version ?1814]
141 *** Song, "Gesang der Nachtigall" [1813]
142 *** Song, "Der Bardengeist" [1813]
143 *** Song, "Des Kriegers Abshied" [1814]
144 *** Song, "Merkenstein" [1814]
145 *** Song, "Das Geheimnis" [1815]
146 *** Song, "Die Sehnsucht" [1815 or 1816]
147 *** Song, "Ruf vom Berge" [1816]
148 *** Song, "So oder so" [1817]
149 *** Song, "Resignation" [1817]
150 *** Song, "Abendlied unterm gestirnten Himmel" [1820]
151 *** Song, "Der edle Mensch" [1823]
152 *** 25 Irish Songs (harmonizations for 1 or 2 voices with pf, vn, vc) [?1813]
153 *** 20 Irish Songs (harmonizations) [?1813]
154 *** 12 Irish Songs (harmonizations) [?1813]
155 *** 26 Welsh Songs (harmonizations) [1817]
156 *** 12 Scottish Songs (harmonizations) [?1815]
157 *** 12 Songs of Various Nationality (harmonizations) [?]
158a *** 23 Songs of Various Nationality
158b *** 7 British Songs
158c *** 6 Songs of Various Nationality
159 *** Canon, "Im Arm der Liebe" [?1795]
160 *** 2 Canons [?1795]
161 *** Canon, "Ewig dein" [?c1810]
162 *** Canon, "Ta ta taoelieber Moelzel" (?forgery by Schindler)
163 *** Canon, "Kurz ist der Schmerz" [1813]
164 *** Canon, "Freundschaft ist die Quelle" [1814]
165 *** Canon, "Gluck zum neuen Jahr" [1815]
166 *** Canon, "Kurz ist der Schmerz [1815]
167 *** Canon, "Brauchle, Linke" [?c1815]
168/1 *** Canon, "Lerne schweigen" [1815-16]
168/2 *** Canon, "Rede, rede" [1815-16]
169 *** Canon, "Ich kusse Sie" [1816]
170 *** Canon, "Ars longa, vita brevis" [1816]
171 *** Canon, "Gluck fehl'dir vor allem" [1817]
172 *** Canon, "Ich bitt'dich, schreib' mir die Es-Scala auf" [?c1818]
173 *** Canon, "Hol'euch der Teufel!" [1819]
174 *** Canon, "Glaube und hoffe" [1819]
175 *** 2 Canons, "Sankt Petrus war ein Fels" & "Bernardus war ein Sankt" [1819-20]
176 *** Canon, "Gluck zum neuen Jahr" [1819]
177 *** Canon, "Bester Magistrat, ihr friert" [?c1820]
178 *** Canon, "Signor Abate" [nd]
179 *** Canon, "Alles Gute! alles Schoene" [1819]
180 *** Canon, "Hoffmann, sei ja kein Hoffmann" [1820]
181 *** 3 Canons, "Gedenket heute an Baden," "Gehabt euch wohl" & "Tugend ist kein leerer Name" [?1820]
182 *** Canon, "O Tobias!" [1821]
183 *** Canon, "Bester Herr Graf, Sie sind ein Schaf!" [1823]
184 *** Canon, "Falstafferel, lass' dich sehen!" [1823]
185 *** Canon, "Edel sei der Mensch" [1823]
186 *** Canon, "Te solo adoro" [1824] (see also Hess 263 & 264)
187 *** Canon, "Schwenke dich ohne Schwoenke!" [1824]
188 *** Canon, "Gott ist eine feste Burg" [1825]
189 *** Canon, "Doktor, sperrt dem Tor das Tod" [1825]
190 *** Canon, "Ich war hier, Doktor" [1825]
191 *** Canon, "Koehl, nicht lau" [1825]
192 *** Canon, "Ars longa, vita brevis" [1825]
193 *** Canon, "Ars longa, vita brevis" [nd]
194 *** Canon, "Si non per portas, per muros" [1825]
195 *** Canon, "Freu' dich des Lebens" [1825]
196 *** Canon, "Es muss sein" [1826]
197 *** Canon, "Da ist das Werk" [1826]
198 *** Canon, "Wie irren allesamt" [1826]
199 *** ?
200 *** ?
201 *** ?
202 *** Canon, "Das Schoene zum Guten" [1823]
203 *** Canon, "Das Schoene zu dem Guten" [1825]
204 *** Canon, "Holz, Holz, geigt die Quartette so" [1825]
Anh.4-Fl. *** Sonata in Bb (doubtful) [c1790-2]


----------



## Ukko

Thanks, Opal. So many that I haven't heard. And buried in the list WoO 80, which I've heard many times. Just a couple weeks ago a fine performance - by (I think) Ciani.


----------



## Toccata

Hilltroll72 said:


> Thanks, Opal. So many that I haven't heard. And buried in the list WoO 80, which I've heard many times. Just a couple weeks ago a fine performance - by (I think) Ciani.


This is where my version came from:










The CD comprises: WoO 76-80, Ops 34 & 35

WoO 79 is quite fun: "5 variations on Rule Britannia".


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## Argus

Anyone know of a good audio (or video w/audio) clip of a squadron of B-29s or B-17s in flight? I'm after that drone they produce in numbers.


----------



## superhorn

Saratn, the leading copyright organization for classical composers is ASCAP, the American society of composers,authors and publishers. Check their website for information.
Good luck. Just google ASCAP.


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## Weston

Argus said:


> Anyone know of a good audio (or video w/audio) clip of a squadron of B-29s or B-17s in flight? I'm after that drone they produce in numbers.


Hey, Argus. I don't know if you're still looking for this, but I found a site that has lots and lots of ambient sounds. I couldn't find B-29's specifically, but maybe you could use some airplane drones and loop and layer them or chorus them for the effect you want.

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=106729

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=62049


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## Weston

My question is about the little piece many of us played while taking piano lessons. I had forgotten about it for years, but knew it was called The Spinning Song. Not Mendelssohn's, but something much easier, sounding more like Bach's Musette in D from the Anna Magdalena Notebook. You'll know it if you hear it. 

In a fit of nostalgia I decided to look this piece up, and found the sheet music for it. It's by Albert Ellmenreich, and it's about his only claim to fame. I found a few recordings of it, but none seem to use the repeats. Without the repeats the piece is only 50 seconds long and is even duller than itself. Does anyone know of any serious recordings of the work? Would any real pianists stoop so low? It would be nice to have for nostalgia's sake. I suppose I could play it myself - it's that easy, but I don't have a real piano or good recording equipment.


----------



## Almaviva

jurianbai said:


> Why in OPERA the composer get the most credit? In Verdi's Requiem is Verdi also write the lyrics, explained to actor how to act their part? Design the stage and costume? This is should be a multi discipline art just like in movie.


Verdi's Requiem is not an opera. There is no acting, staging, or costumes.


----------



## Delicious Manager

Chris said:


> I've never heard Ravel's Daphnis et Chloe and I would like to get a CD of this music. But I am confused about Suite no. 1. Reading through my 2008 Penguin Guide the Suite no. 2 is represented by numerous recordings but Suite no. 1 only appears once, on a mono recording from 1953 (French National RO, Cluytens). Is the Suite no 1 superfluous?
> 
> I wouldn't mind getting the whole ballet but the most highly recommended versions are antediluvian (Boston SO, Munch, 1950s; LSO, Monteux, 1959).


The 'suites' from _Daphnis et Chloë_ are not really suites at all. 'Suite No 2' is merely the last 17 minutes of the score (from _Lever du jour_ to the end), while the little-heard 'Suite No 1' is simply a 12-minute bleeding chunk from the middle of the ballet comprising the _Nocturne_ (the quiet section with the wind machine) and _Interlude_ and ending with the _Danse guerrière_. One reason that 'Suite No 1' never caught on is because the _Interlude_ has a long unaccompanied section for wordless chorus which becomes quite unsatisfactory with the chorus cues played on instruments for performances without a choir.

As _Daphnis_ fits comfortably on one CD and contains ravishing music THROUGHOUT, there is no point in NOT getting the whole ballet. The classical 1959 LSO/Monteux recording still sounds wonderful today, with the Montreal SO/Dutoit performance offering more modern sound, but a less sensual performance.


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## Delicious Manager

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Is piano solo music considered chamber music?


Nope, it is classified as 'instrumental'.


----------



## Delicious Manager

maestro267 said:


> In Vaughan Williams' Ninth Symphony, he calls for both a tam-tam and a 'large gong'. Where in the symphony does this large gong appear?


Many people don't know the difference between a tam-tam and a gong. Tam-tams have a flat resonating area with a rim around the side. Gongs have 'nipples' in the centre of the resonating areas and are usually tuned to specific pitches. Vaughan Williams does not specify a pitch for his 'large gong', which is odd as he was much more specific for the set of gongs he used in the Eighth Symphony.

The gong plays along with the tubular bell (chime) in the second movement. You can hear it from around 4:57 on this video.


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## Argus

Weston said:


> Hey, Argus. I don't know if you're still looking for this, but I found a site that has lots and lots of ambient sounds. I couldn't find B-29's specifically, but maybe you could use some airplane drones and loop and layer them or chorus them for the effect you want.
> 
> http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=106729
> 
> http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=62049


Thanks for that.

Yeah, like you say, with a bit of a modulation effect and layering them over each other it should approximate the sound of a few planes flying together.

Actually, this clip is pretty much perfect as is.

http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=41143


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## jurianbai

any thread to celebrate/mourn the coming of 2011?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

bit late for that one


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## Klassik

Toccata said:


> In the process of perusing this thread I have just spotted that member Aramis has been "temporarily banned".


Some things don't change, do they? Aramis is still temporarily banned! :lol: Now if he was named Paco Rabanne...


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