# Random thoughts on music!



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This thread is for random thoughts on music, so that for every thought there would be no need to start a new thread!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

My first thought: Learning to appreciate Mahler has helped me to appreciate the early works of Sibelius, when his themes were not of as high a profile. I have for example totally rejected the Kullervo Symphony before. Now I am
able to hear the quality in other aspects than the highest profile themes/material that just is not there.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

The following is a subjective opinion I've always and still noted in my journey since I was young. Classical excels at aspects like rhythm, counterpoint, form and sensitivity, but to me leaves lots to be desired in regards to _harmony, melody, theme, and like most music, instrumentation _which has been at its most primitive still. The Big 3 are composers who seemed to get around many of these obstacles, delivering on the majority of these cylinders, though still quite imperfectly to my ears, areas which I enjoy improving on in my own sketches. Thus so, I don't have any composer I deem as excellent or untouchable, but there is excellence and legendariness within many composers. Of the Big 3, I believe the earlier two made safer sacrifices towards the latter _italicized_ aspects mentioned and it paid off well. The final composer sacrificed too much towards his own ideas on harmony and theme and so suffered in the more Classical areas to my ear.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

The other day I listened to Nightride and Sunrise. I have always thought the piece needed some serious editing.

Nevertheless, after listening to Mahler, all of a sudden it occurred to me that from Mahler this work would have been accepted as it is. It is from Sibelius that we expect concise and tight works, not from the sprawling Mahler.

So do you think we have composer specific requirements as listeners, unconsciously? It would appear that to some extent, yes.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Ethereality said:


> leaves lots to be desired in regards to _harmony, melody, theme, and like most music, instrumentation _


I find harmony & melody the most important parts of a piece, more important than all the other aspects you mentioned, & it's interesting to see someone say that it's in those two aspects that classical (which generally has a reputation of being the most 'sophisticated') is lacking. Can you tell us more about why?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Random musical thought:* a key idea.

Piano keys can produce musical tones or unlock the fallboard. Once the fallboard is unlocked and the keys are revealed, one may choose which keys to play by selecting sequences of white and black keys, depending upon the key. The key to playing different keys is to be keyed into the white/black key sequence needed for each key. Which, as I recall from youthful piano lessons, was a key reason to leave the key alone and to never unlock that fallboard.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

The duality of expectation and surprise, which are hugely subjective and relative to our particular cultural environment and experiences, along with our own individual attraction to and tolerance level for each, probably plays the single largest role in the kind of music we like.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> The other day I listened to Nightride and Sunrise. I have always thought the piece needed some serious editing.
> 
> Nevertheless, after listening to Mahler, all of a sudden it occurred to me that from Mahler this work would have been accepted as it is. It is from Sibelius that we expect concise and tight works, not from the sprawling Mahler.
> 
> So do you think we have composer specific requirements as listeners, unconsciously? It would appear that to some extent, yes.


Sibelius' _Night Ride & Sunrise_ is actually one of my favorites of his tone poems. There's something so hypnotic and ritualistic yet inevitable about much of the work's narrative. The journey to the "sunrise" is simply magical. It's seldom discussed or mentioned and I have never understood _why_, because I find the work to be rewarding. It's unlike anything he wrote actually nor does it sound like anything written by anyone else. And that, within itself, is a feat of writing.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> Sibelius' _Night Ride & Sunrise_ is actually one of my favorites of his tone poems. There's something so hypnotic and ritualistic yet inevitable about much of the work's narrative. The journey to the "sunrise" is simply magical. It's seldom discussed or mentioned and I have never understood _why_, because I find the work to be rewarding. It's unlike anything he wrote actually nor does it sound like anything written by anyone else. And that, within itself, is a feat of writing.


Excellent writing and meaningful thoughts. Thank you.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Ethereality said:


> The following is a subjective opinion I've always and still noted in my journey since I was young. Classical excels at aspects like rhythm, counterpoint, form and sensitivity, but to me leaves lots to be desired in regards to _harmony, melody, theme, and like most music, instrumentation _which has been at its most primitive still. The Big 3 are composers who seemed to get around many of these obstacles, delivering on the majority of these *cylinders*, though still quite imperfectly to my ears, areas which I enjoy improving on in my own sketches. Thus so, I don't have any composer I deem as excellent or untouchable, but there is excellence and legendariness within many composers. Of the Big 3, I believe the earlier two made safer sacrifices towards the latter _italicized_ aspects mentioned and it paid off well. The final composer sacrificed too much towards his own ideas on harmony and theme and so suffered in the more Classical areas to my ear.


Cylinders?

What non-classical music would you cite as being better harmonically?


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

I think he means 'cylinders' in the same sense someone would say "firing on all cylinders". That they're delivering on the majority of the musical aspects mentioned.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

If language has magic, music must be a good way to exploit its magical power. So a good language should be able to be set in good music.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> The other day I listened to Nightride and Sunrise. I have always thought the piece needed some serious editing.
> 
> Nevertheless, after listening to Mahler, all of a sudden it occurred to me that from Mahler this work would have been accepted as it is. It is from Sibelius that we expect concise and tight works, not from the sprawling Mahler.


Which Mahler movement is as pointlessly (or maybe justified by the title) repetitive as "Nightride and Sunrise"?

I don't think at all that listeners are more severe with Sibelius. Sibelius is IMO one of the most uneven among famous composers. This is shown by the large amount of works that have been unearthed by BIS but are virtually unknown otherwise (e.g. lots of the incidental music, the piano music, all chamber besides the famous quartet). Of the comparably well known pieces I think we (or many of us) tolerate his repetitive or "film music" (most of the theatre music) because of its atmospheric quality and because the composer is highly respected for a bunch of concise symphonies.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Which Mahler movement is as pointlessly (or maybe justified by the title) repetitive as "Nightride and Sunrise"?
> 
> I don't think at all that listeners are more severe with Sibelius. Sibelius is IMO one of the most uneven among famous composers. This is shown by the large amount of works that have been unearthed by BIS but are virtually unknown otherwise (e.g. lots of the incidental music, the piano music, all chamber besides the famous quartet). Of the comparably well known pieces I think we (or many of us) tolerate his repetitive or "film music" (most of the theatre music) because of its atmospheric quality and because the composer is highly respected for a bunch of concise symphonies.


I have had no problem with the repetition of the nightride but with the sprawling sunrise. So for me your question is in that way beside the point and I cannot provide an answer.

There sure is stuff by Sibelius I am not too fond with. Then again he had 5 daughters who needed to eat. Sibelius himself referred to some of his piano pieces as a way to provide butter on the bread.

Maybe I speak only and just for myself when stating that after Mahler, The Sunrise is no longer a problem. This is a good thing, right?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I do not like string quartet as a genre. But there are absolutely excellent string quartets despite the genre -- some of the greatest music ever. It is inspiring there have been composers who have been able to make string quartets sound interesting and fresh against all the odds. For me that is a sign of a true genius -- creating a fresh sounding string quartet!


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

*Percussion*. There is a lot of classical music that includes no percussion, but in jazz and popular music it's nearly universal. Why is that?

In college I had a radio show called "Rock Without Percussion" but after a couple weeks I exhausted my playlist. I have a small collection of jazz (Jimmy Giuffre Trio, Dave Brubeck Octet, Cal Tjader Trio, etc.) which includes no drummer, but it's rare.

Why did music go from "primitive" (dancing around the fire to a drum) to "sophisticated" (no percussion) back to primitive again?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> I do not like string quartet as a genre. But there are absolutely excellent string quartets despite the genre -- some of the greatest music ever. It is inspiring there have been composers who have been able to make string quartets sound interesting and fresh against all the odds. For me that is a sign of a true genius -- creating a fresh sounding string quartet!


I think it's the greatest gift in music, the sting quartets I mean, only surpassed by the human voice. Greatest instrument of all.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Rogerx said:


> , the sting quartets I mean, .


Gawd no. One of him is enough!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Rogerx said:


> I think it's the greatest gift in music, the sting quartets I mean, only surpassed by the human voice. Greatest instrument of all.


For me the Piano Quartet is the most balanced chamber music ensemble. (Piano Trio is thinner and Piano Quintet thicker.)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

NoCoPilot said:


> *Percussion*. There is a lot of classical music that includes no percussion, but in jazz and popular music it's nearly universal. Why is that?
> 
> In college I had a radio show called "Rock Without Percussion" but after a couple weeks I exhausted my playlist. I have a small collection of jazz (Jimmy Giuffre Trio, Dave Brubeck Octet, Cal Tjader Trio, etc.) which includes no drummer, but it's rare.
> 
> Why did music go from "primitive" (dancing around the fire to a drum) to "sophisticated" (no percussion) back to primitive again?


This is a good question! And I do not have an obvious answer. For I can imagine an alternative history where percussion would have advanced together with melodic and harmonic instruments.

Because I cannot think of "natural" reasons for this, maybe the reason could be cultural? Maybe Europeans wanted to distance them from the African influences? The Europeans sure thought they were the more advanced people and wanted to manifest it.


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## ansfelden (Jan 11, 2022)

"Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum"

That Nietzsche.

so true, who dares to argue?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I recall watching a documentary, and there was a spy in the early 20th Century (can't remember he was Russian or German), who encoded his secret messages using musical notation. According to the documentary, music experts proclaimed the music to be a modern masterpiece! If someone remembers the name of the spy / composer, I'd be grateful. I couldn't find it from a quick Google search.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

Sounds apocryphal, although the science behind it is sound.
https://interlude.hk/spies-and-music/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_cryptogram


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I wonder how many times friends of vocal classical music have heard the German phrase: ”… in meinem Herzen…” ?

And actually quite often combined with ”Schmerzen”.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There was a 1950s favorite, used in a kitsch movie that became a staple of Rudolf Schock who did a lot of popular/operetta stuff very popular among my grandparents and even parents generation. I remember a 50 years wedding anniversary of a grand uncle of mine in the 1980s where a choir sang that one...
If you search for "Ach, Ich Hab' In Meinem Herzen" there is even a clip from that ridiculous movie.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

ansfelden said:


> "Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum"
> 
> That Nietzsche.
> 
> so true, who dares to argue?


That Dr. Johnson, who found his treasure elsewhere and was certainly less fulsome in his praise: "Of all noises I think music the least disagreeable."


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

ansfelden said:


> "Ohne Musik wäre das Leben ein Irrtum"
> 
> That Nietzsche.
> 
> so true, who dares to argue?


Well, in my personal experience, that quote doesn't ring true. In college, I was a music freak, but after all that excess, I went for 15 years withdrawn from music. That's when I first heard the quote, and I thought it was a pretty extreme sentiment. For me, music isn't a necessity for fullness of life; it is an enhancement. But it's an enhancement that I really like.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

I don't understand why there is so much discussion about the Tristan chord.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Aurelian said:


> I don't understand why there is so much discussion about the Tristan chord.


It is a lovely chord with strong melodic/harmonic tendencies towards resolving the tension! A new way of using the variant of a dominant seventh chord!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> There was a 1950s favorite, used in a kitsch movie that became a staple of Rudolf Schock who did a lot of popular/operetta stuff very popular among my grandparents and even parents generation. I remember a 50 years wedding anniversary of a grand uncle of mine in the 1980s where a choir sang that one...
> If you search for "Ach, Ich Hab' In Meinem Herzen" there is even a clip from that ridiculous movie.


The wonderful (?) piece of music posted by you brought this to mind. It is supposed to be The Most Unwanted Song, based on opinion survey.






I wonder whether people on this forum agree that harp glissandos, oom-pahin tubas and children choirs are annoying?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

A Twentieth Century Mystery. History is replete with anecdotes and documents that show the relationships of composers to one another and to one another's music, which certainly spans time. Almost every composer has had something to say to or about their copractitioners--one just considers Ravel and Debussy, Brahms and Dvorak, and Bruch, and Beethoven, and Bach, etc.--the list is (almost) endless. Yet two towering 20th century composers, Bela Bartok and Sergei Prokofiev, only 10 years different in their birth dates and 8 in the dates of their deaths, had nothing to say to or about each other, as people or as composers. I find this bizarre and emailed Harlow Robinson, a leading Prokofiev biographer, about his knowledge of any connection whatsoever between the two composers, and he responded that he was not aware of any such. A mystery indeed, and what can explain it? Anyone have any clues?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Strange Magic said:


> A Twentieth Century Mystery. History is replete with anecdotes and documents that show the relationships of composers to one another and to one another's music, which certainly spans time. Almost every composer has had something to say to or about their copractitioners--one just considers Ravel and Debussy, Brahms and Dvorak, and Bruch, and Beethoven, and Bach, etc.--the list is (almost) endless. Yet two towering 20th century composers, Bela Bartok and Sergei Prokofiev, only 10 years different in their birth dates and 8 in the dates of their deaths, had nothing to say to or about each other, as people or as composers. I find this bizarre and emailed Harlow Robinson, a leading Prokofiev biographer, about his knowledge of any connection whatsoever between the two composers, and he responded that he was not aware of any such. A mystery indeed, and what can explain it? Anyone have any clues?


Sometimes composers do not want to get influenced by each other and might even avoid each other. In this particular case I do not really know the reasons but I can talk from experience that in order to keep one's own musical language in an integrated shape, a composer is not always as free as others to jump into musical experiences without reservations.

Composers might not be the best listeners.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> Sometimes composers do not want to get influenced by each other and might even avoid each other. In this particular case I do not really know the reasons but I can talk from experience that in order to keep one's own musical language in an integrated shape, a composer is not always as free as others to jump into musical experiences without reservations.
> 
> Composers might not be the best listeners.


True, but Prokofiev especially was not reticent about knowing or commenting on other composers or their works. He enjoyed a long friendship with Myaskovsky, and knew and appreciated Ravel and Poulenc, and had his differences with Rachmaninoff, Sibelius, and Stravinsky. The two men, Prokofiev and Bartok, seem to have made an effort to not engage with one another in any way. I would love to know more!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

There are a lot of posts about how some composer or a piece of music is overrated. 

I think those threads are overrated.  I do not understand the purpose of them. Who cares if a piece of music or a composer is hyped more than one could care for. Isn´t it wonderful that there is music that people like, even if it is not your cup of tea?

So what is the driving force behing the overrated-threads? What is the great aim?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> There are a lot of posts about how some composer or a piece of music is overrated.
> 
> I think those threads are overrated.  I do not understand the purpose of them. Who cares if a piece of music or a composer is hyped more than one could care for. Isn´t it wonderful that there is music that people like, even if it is not your cup of tea?
> 
> So what is the driving force behing the overrated-threads? What is the great aim?


In 1950, one of the most penetrating and durable books was published about human behavior, then specific to the US but now applicable to much of the western world. _The Lonely Crowd_ by David Riesman, Nathan Glazer, and Reuel Denney, spoke of Tradition-, Inner-, and Other-directed individual personality types. According to the authors, of whom Riesman is the best remembered, a hallmark of the Other-directed personality is a need to check often and thoroughly on the opinions of their peers, and one way to do that is through what the authors called Taste-Exchanging.

Taste-Exchanging is a dialog among peers wherein subjects of mutual interest are bandied about to see who thinks what and whether the other(s) think as we do. This defines the TC membership and the memberships of uncounted internet groups. My own view is that personalities lie along a spectrum or are an amalgamation of 'types" and thus can contain elements of types simultaneously. I am as Other-directed as anybody on TC, but like to think that I bring (sometimes) something special to the discussion. And thus we have lists, rankings, grades--better, worse. Perhaps this explains things.

http://archive.wilsonquarterly.com/essays/fifty-years-lonely-crowd


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Strange Magic: A good discourse about the social issue, inner-personality is a liability for other-directionness, true. Therefore I will say that inner-personae need protection by their servants, I am one of their slaves. Not that I distaste other-directionness, rather this innerness is my direction of services. 

Music: 

It is a marvel that human languages can become a part of music, can be sung as songs. Is it not that languages themselves are music? Plato says that philosophy is the best music, reading good philosophical musings also gives similar musical feelings. I think composers in classical eras or earlier must have philosophical enlightenments in their up-brings as the motivation to become a professional composer. A good philosophical foundation must be crucial for composing music.


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Has anyone here tried listening to music backwards? I'd assume instrumental works are easier to listen to in reverse since there won't be any gibberish.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

˙ǝɔuǝɹǝɟɟᴉp ɥɔnɯ ǝʞɐɯ ʇou pᴉp ˙ǝɔuo uʍop ǝpᴉsdn ƃuᴉuǝʇsᴉl pǝᴉɹʇ I ʇnq 'oN


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

4chamberedklavier said:


> Has anyone here tried listening to music backwards? I'd assume instrumental works are easier to listen to in reverse since there won't be any gibberish.


There are several pieces designed for backwards (canon cancrizans from Musical offering and also some medieval pieces, I think) as well as forwards playing. 
But beware of satanic messages in backwards rock music!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> ˙ǝɔuǝɹǝɟɟᴉp ɥɔnɯ ǝʞɐɯ ʇou pᴉp ˙ǝɔuo uʍop ǝpᴉsdn ƃuᴉuǝʇsᴉl pǝᴉɹʇ I ʇnq 'oN


This reminds me of my youth. My mom had signed me up for catechism (basically just after-school weekday Catholic Sunday School), and the nuns would quiz us on the teachings by opening the book from which we were learning, and ask the question, of which the answer was right there in front of them.

˙%00Ɩ ʇoƃ sʎɐʍlɐ I os 'uʍop ǝpᴉsdn pɐǝɹ oʇ ǝlqɐ sɐʍ I ʇno suɹnʇ ʇI


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

pianozach said:


> This reminds me of my youth. My mom had signed me up for catechism (basically just after-school weekday Catholic Sunday School), and the nuns would quiz us on the teachings by opening the book from which we were learning, and ask the question, of which the answer was right there in front of them.
> 
> ˙%00Ɩ ʇoƃ sʎɐʍlɐ I os 'uʍop ǝpᴉsdn pɐǝɹ oʇ ǝlqɐ sɐʍ I ʇno suɹnʇ ʇI


You sure are true to the topic of this thread! What a wonderful random thought! Thanks!


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_There are a lot of posts about how some composer or a piece of music is overrated. So what is the driving force behind the overrated-threads? What is the great aim?_

People have to talk about something on sites like these ...

I think in these instances it is to establish the credentials and expertise of the under/over-rater ... the person making the claim. It isn't actually about the composer at all ... it is about the claimant's opinion.

I think people phrase these questions in under/over talk instead of just saying they do or do not like something because it is more hoity-toity and some people think this kind of thing still matters in classical music -- references to the elite.

There is also the copycat thing -- other people do it so I will too, as if to say it is an accepted form of argument.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

Hating gets more clicks than liking, and "overrated" gets more clicks than "underrated".


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## 4chamberedklavier (12 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> There are a lot of posts about how some composer or a piece of music is overrated.
> 
> I think those threads are overrated.  I do not understand the purpose of them. Who cares if a piece of music or a composer is hyped more than one could care for. Isn´t it wonderful that there is music that people like, even if it is not your cup of tea?
> 
> So what is the driving force behing the overrated-threads? What is the great aim?


I like reading about what people consider overrated/underrated & I use those threads to find recommendations, though I don't really participate, I just lurk from afar.

I think part of it is just the human tendency of wanting to distinguish oneself from the crowd. People might think to themselves "I'm not like the others who all listen to the same thing!". It can get obnoxious, but I also don't think wanting to be different is in itself something to be frowned upon. It's nice to see some variety in musical tastes.

The discussions about whether music can be "overrated/underrated" can end up being very misleading or confused. This probably has much to do with how music criticism involves so much subjectivity. Someone says this piece is overrated, the other says it's not! But standards for considering something overrated often rely on subjective assumptions. Maybe person A implicitly places higher importance on shorter, more economical pieces that get to the point. While person B implicitly places more importance in longer works that someone can really get immersed in. If you don't make it clear what your standards are, then you're bound to talk past each other.


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