# Round One: Rachel , quand du Seigneur. Shicoff, Alagna, Domingo



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

This will be a many round competition. We are starting with videos.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I love Alagna, but in this instance and this aria, Shicoff takes the palm - his is the most poignant rendition I’ve heard (though I haven’t heard them all).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Neil Shicoff, past his prime here though still vocally strong, is up against Alagna and Domingo at their youthful best. It turns out to be no disadvantage; he alone makes me believe in a father's grief.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Neil Shicoff, past his prime here though still vocally strong, is up against Alagna and Domingo at their youthful best. It turns out to be no disadvantage; he alone makes me believe in a father's grief.


Should I leave this or substitute a different version of Shicoff when he was younger for the rest of the voters?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Should I leave this or substitute a different version of Shicoff when he was younger for the rest of the voters?


Don't know. Haven't heard any of the others.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Don't know. Haven't heard any of the others.


I wanted to include him in a video as he is such a great actor, but in looking at what is available he looks old in all the video versions so I will just leave it since he won with both of the first two voters and you are both very knowledgeable.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Interesting. Here we have two young tenors in concert and an older and, at this time, much more experienced artist performing the role on stage. Alagna has the most sappy sound here (and it's a joy to hear the French language sung so clearly and naturally by a native French singer) but Eléazar is not a young man and Shicoff is the only one who really makes me feel his pain. For all that he is plainly past his vocal best, he is the clear winner in this competition.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Shicoff has the advantage of a live production but even discounting that, his performance is an emotional knockout and I have hard time believing that theater's roof was able to withstand the following applause - audience went mad with appreciation.

P.S. Actually I just ordered the 2DVD edition of this performance - so far it was a glaring omission from my collection. Thanks to our dear John for this interesting new competition!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Shicoff sounds appropriately older and arguably the better of the three, but I've always liked Alagna in French repertoire.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Shicoff sounds appropriately older and arguably the better of the three, but I've always liked Alagna in French repertoire.


I learn from my own contests. I thought Alagna was Italian but after all the good things said about him singing the French repertoire in the discussions here found out he is French and was one of the few opera singers like Ponselle who were pretty much self taught.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I learn from my own contests. I thought Alagna was Italian but after all the good things said about him singing the French repertoire in the discussions here found out he was French and was one of the few opera singers like Ponselle who were pretty much self taught.


_is_ French. I believe he is still with us and is still French!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> _is_ French. I believe he is still with us and is still French!


He may be French now, but someday he'll be toast.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> He may be French now, but someday he'll be toast.


Is that French toast? Or a brioche?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ The French don't use the term "French toast," do they? Whatever they call it, that's what he'll be. A real challenge for the mortician, I'd imagine.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ The French don't use the term "French toast," do they? Whatever they call it, that's what he'll be. A real challenge for the mortician, I'd imagine.


Actually I don't think they call it anything. I'm pretty sure it's purely an American confection.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> He may be French now, but someday he'll be toast.


... "pain grillé", surely


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> ... "pain grillé", surely


The French have _pain perdu_, made from stale bread, to make use of it instead of throwing it away. So, no, it's not a strictly American creation, but a culinary translation of sorts.

For those interested, _pain perdu_ is made, not with sandwich bread like the American version, but with crusty French loaf and the addition of cream in the custard. Today, some use _brioche_ or _challah_ and even _panettone_, which is too much of a good thing!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Not a big fan of any of these renditions. Shicoff the actor had me in the palm of his hand during the intro, I thought it was setting me up for something transcendent. From the moment he began to sing he lost me, never to return, in fact only to lose me more with an ending I found unearned and melodramatic. For me his voice was coarse, not under his control and unattached to the emotions he seemed to be portraying before singing. Alagna was better, but for someone ( like Shicoff) seemingly with artistic designs he simply never mastered his voice. I thought the emotion seemed right but generalized. The voice isn't " out of control " but that statement is a far cry from saying that it is "under his control"! To me though, He sounded much better than Shicoff. . And Domingo! What he could have been, when one considers what he accomplished as it is. But this looks to me like it's coming from the beginning of the period (the REST of his career!) when he would essentially never surprise you again. Having said that, if one does not look for nuance or dynamic variation, his voice is, to me, light years ahead of the other two in terms of being under his control....being an instrument he uses musically. I always say, " why do I pick on Domingo so much, this is good" and that's it....it's always "good"! With what he looked like he could become, that's pretty faint praise. But to me, he far outshines the other two.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Too bad! The deck was stacked from the git-go. Old or not, you don't begin to even consider those two young, good lookin' singers, even in the case of Alagna who did a very fine job. I thought Domingo was absolutely uninvolved and just sang with his usual pretty voice without much going on underneath that was in any way sincere.
Seemed unfair but Shicoff ran away with it.
(Maybe the last 5 minutes of La Boheme with Cotrubas and Shicoff would have been fairer?) Mmmmm ... nah!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Too bad! The deck was stacked from the git-go. Old or not, you don't begin to even consider those two young, good lookin' singers, even in the case of Alagna who did a very fine job. I thought Domingo was absolutely uninvolved and just sang with his usual pretty voice without much going on underneath that was in any way sincere.
> Seemed unfair but Shicoff ran away with it.
> (Maybe the last 5 minutes of La Boheme with Cotrubas and Shicoff would have been fairer?) Mmmmm ... nah!


Your tip has led to a fun contest I think. More goodies to come... but can they unseat Shicoff???????


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Azol said:


> Shicoff has the advantage of a live production but even discounting that, his performance is an emotional knockout and I have hard time believing that theater's roof was able to withstand the following applause - audience went mad with appreciation.
> 
> P.S. Actually I just ordered the 2DVD edition of this performance - so far it was a glaring omission from my collection. Thanks to our dear John for this interesting new competition!


I was actually there and watched the entire incredibly touching and gut-wrenching performance.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I learn from my own contests. I thought Alagna was Italian but after all the good things said about him singing the French repertoire in the discussions here found out he is French and was one of the few opera singers like Ponselle who were pretty much self taught.


He is from a Sicilian family who moved to France.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> He is from a Sicilian family who moved to France.


I have a question about Alagna. Since he developed his singing method based on recordings of great singers, do you find that he has more of an old fashioned sound like singers from the 20th century as opposed to a more modern sound? More on the order of Joseph Calleja?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have a question about Alagna. Since he developed his singing method based on recordings of great singers, do you find that he has more of an old fashioned sound like singers from the 20th century as opposed to a more modern sound? More on the order of Joseph Calleja?


Alagna's voice never raised that question in my mind. It might help to know what you think an "old-fashioned" sound is, other than the sound of an acoustic or early electrical recording, which has identifiable effects on vocal timbre attributable largely to restricted and/or distorted frequency response in the recording medium. Removing that factor from the equation (hard to do), we know both by ear and by measurement that vibratos tended to be faster in old-school singers of any vocal category. I haven't noticed this in Alagna's singing.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have a question about Alagna. Since he developed his singing method based on recordings of great singers, do you find that he has more of an old fashioned sound like singers from the 20th century as opposed to a more modern sound? More on the order of Joseph Calleja?


I have no answer about the old fashioned sound. I find Callejas sound unique and I love hearing Nina refer to it as an old fashioned sound. For Alagna, I think he had a phenomenal God given instrument. I loved the early Romeo video, pretty sure from Covent Garden, but don't remember being struck by unusual, just good! I purchased the Boheme with Gheorghiu and had very little response to it and thought the voice was getting much tighter...less free. He sounded good here but without all the trappings, was not going to make the same impression as Shicoff.


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