# Is not tying the tremolo wrong?



## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

I know this is a controversial thing when it comes to orchestral writing is do you tie the tremolo or not? My instinct for strings at least is "No, don't tie it". Timpani, I can understand tying tremolo and I do that for long rolls in my Timpani parts. But with strings, I don't see the point. This is my thoughts on it:

No, of course ties aren't necessary for tremolo and it can even make things confusing so don't do it. Even for rhythmic clarity, just separate the notes and don't tie them if there is to be a tremolo played on those notes. Tremolo is naturally a series of short, almost staccato attacks, even for eighth note tremolo as is often seen in Beethoven scores. Would you tie staccato notes?

Of course not! It makes no sense to tie staccato. An eighth and quarter tied staccato makes no sense, just put an eighth staccato followed by a quarter rest and you will get the same or similar enough result at most tempos. Since tremolo is essentially a lot of staccato attacks, treat it like you would staccato and don't tie it.

In other words, if I wanted a melody to be played tremolo on strings this is what I would do:









No ties, just the notes and the speed I want the tremolo at(in this case 16th notes).

And yet, I will see plenty of people who swear by tying tremolo notes if they are 2 of the same note or for rhythmic clarity where I would just keep the notes separate. In other words, they would write the same tremolo melody like this instead:









Is one more correct than the other or is this just a matter of 2 different approaches and it doesn't really matter as long as you stay consistent from one piece to the next?


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Yes, they are different. Without the tie, the player will play the 8th slightly shorter in order to "attack/re-articulate" the dotted quarter. So, your melody will be clearer with no tie, but slightly choppy.


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

Vasks said:


> Yes, they are different. Without the tie, the player will play the 8th slightly shorter in order to "attack/re-articulate" the dotted quarter. So, your melody will be clearer with no tie, but slightly choppy.


Oh, I didn't know that tied tremolo and separated tremolo notes sound different. I thought they would sound the same because many quick attacks for the same length in either case.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

You can have a tremolo OR you can have 16th notes.
Unless you have different definition of tremolo than me.

Convention says that tremolos are usually written with three crosses on the stems, not the two you have shown. Or if the tempo is slow, and there's some doubt about whether it's a tremolo or measured notes that are wanted, then write _trem_ above them.

That's before I've even addressed your question about ties.


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## caters (Aug 2, 2018)

GraemeG said:


> You can have a tremolo OR you can have 16th notes.
> Unless you have different definition of tremolo than me.
> 
> Convention says that tremolos are usually written with three crosses on the stems, not the two you have shown. Or if the tempo is slow, and there's some doubt about whether it's a tremolo or measured notes that are wanted, then write _trem_ above them.
> ...


I've heard that tremolo can mean any fast repeated notes, measured or unmeasured, so there is sixteenth note tremolo with 2 crosses and eighth note tremolo with one cross.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Measured tremolo = one or two slashes depending on the note value you wish to hear from the tremolo.
Unmeasured (as fast as possible so one can not discern a specific number) = three slashes.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Referencing Del Mar's _Anatomy of the Orchestra_, he says "The tremolo should only really come into question when the number of too-and-fro bow strokes is indeterminate." He goes on to say that although three strokes on the stem is 'standard' to indicate a tremolo it's not universal. He claims Haydn writes two strokes when he means tremolo, so players who play (per your first example) 6 Cs and 2 Es are doing it wrong in Haydn. Conversely, when Tchaikovsky puts three strokes he wants it measured, and four strokes indicated a true tremolo.

Anyway, I have an awkward sense about this discussion. If you're composing a bar of 4/4 and you want 16 notes in the bar, it's not a tremolo, however you notate it. If you're 'abbreviating' by putting the strokes across the stem, that's only done to save you composing time, or because it's easier for players to read it. As you say, Beethoven is full of it - we call it 'scrubbing' in the strings - but everyone knows they're measured notes. And measured notes does *not* equal tremolo. The whole point of tremolo is that the number of notes varies between player. It's a non-unison bowing. Usually fast (this tends to fall to the conductor) but not always. (See that rehearsal video of Celibidache conducting the BPO in the opening of Bruckner 7; slow tremolo - basically everyone slowly, randomly bowing on the same note. Nothing to specifically indicate it in the score though).

And my take on ties on true tremolos is; that will encourage the strings to 'start again' on the note - with the caveat that it depends on how the musical line goes. I'd suggest avoiding ties on tremolos altogether. If you want emphasis on a note within the tremolo line, then use a > or sf something similar.


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## adrien (Sep 12, 2016)

If I saw a part in an orchestra I was playing in, and it didn't have the tie, then I would play a slight accent on the dotted 1/4 note to re-iterate it. If it were tied, I wouldn't.

So the answer is, it depends on how you want it to be played.


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