# String Quartet from pre-Haydn era



## jurianbai

Is Haydn really invented this form or he just popularize it? Any pre-Haydn string quartet that have the similar concept to what we know as string quartet now? And why this idea less existed before Haydn?

I know there is a divertimento but from the wikipedia article it is not state firmly it is about 2 violins, 1 viola and 1 cello formation.


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## Art Rock

Wikipedia:

David Wyn Jones traces the origin of the string quartet to the Baroque trio sonata, in which two solo instruments performed with a continuo section consisting of a bass instrument (such as the cello) and keyboard. By the early 18th century, composers were often adding a third soloist; and moreover it was common to omit the keyboard part, letting the cello support the bass line alone. Thus when Alessandro Scarlatti wrote a set of six works entitled "Sonata à Quattro per due Violini, Violetta [viola], e Violoncello senza Cembalo" (Sonata for four instruments: two violins, viola, and cello without harpsichord), this was a natural evolution from existing tradition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_quartet


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## Art Rock

And from the same article:

The string quartet arose to prominence with the work of Joseph Haydn. Haydn's own discovery of the quartet form appears to have arisen essentially by accident.[3] The young composer Joseph Haydn was working for Baron Carl von Joseph Edler von Fürnberg sometime around 1755-1757[4] at his country estate in Weinzierl, about fifty miles from Vienna. The Baron wanted to hear music, and the available players happened to be two violinists, a violist, and a cellist. Haydn's early biographer Georg August Griesinger tells the story thus:
The following purely chance circumstance had led him to try his luck at the composition of quartets. A Baron Fürnberg had a place in Weinzierl, several stages from Vienna, and he invited from time to time his pastor, his manager, Haydn, and Albrechtsberger (a brother of the celebrated contrapuntist Albrechtsberger) in order to have a little music. Fürnberg requested Haydn to compose something that could be performed by these four amateurs. Haydn, then eighteen years old,[5] took up this proposal, and so originated his first quartet which, immediately it appeared, received such general approval that Haydn took courage to work further in this form.[6]


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## jurianbai

I've read the article before. Basically all 3,4 or 5 instruments in chamber music can be linked as string quartet predessesor, but what I like to know is why no (or less) composer hit the exactly string quartet formation. The idea is quite logic with 2 violins playing main melody , then two instruments accompanying. The Fugue looks perfect to be performed this way. From the article it is the Baron who propose this idea, mean even non composer can think about this. I also read cello is less popular in Baroque era (?) to add in as a reason.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> ... The idea is quite logic with 2 violins playing main melody , then two instruments accompanying ...


Well, it may appear logical with the benefit of 21st century hindsight. 

As already suggested above, the _Trio Sonata _forms the basic premise for chamber music (non solo) before the SQ in the Barqoue. The idea is also perfectly logical, as one might be able to argue: two lines of melody supported by the basso continuo to provide harmonic structure, basically put. You wanted a minimum number of players capable of expressing the utmost and they thought the _Trio Sonata_ was capable of it, and rightly so, judging by the innumerable works written. Baroque orchestration was pretty much just a treble line and a bass line.


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## jurianbai

I see. So any notable piece from pre Haydn era that strickly use string quartet formation?


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Nothing immediately obvious comes to my mind. Maybe other members might be able to help you.

But there were certainly a lot of quartets written in the Baroque, scored for other instrumental combinations. A famous set of these that was widely published and circulated were the so called _Paris Quartets_ (1738/1740) by Telemann. Scored for flute, violin, viola da gamba with cello & harpsichord as basso continuo, you could imagine the flute as a violin line, but the music is different to the Classical idiom of Haydn. You might like to check it out! Give it a go.


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## jurianbai

Oh I already know that piece (Telemann Paris Quartets), thanks btw. The string quartets repertoire nowdays is widely at Romantic up era. I am short of piece in the spirit of Haydn, therefore I try best to get Boccherini's, and anything on this era. Thus I like to see anything near String Quartet in Classical era and most curious from Baroque. Still waitttiiing.....


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Honestly, if you are looking for a Baroque chamber music form that really took on the period like the SQ did for later periods, you might like to listen to various _Trio Sonatas _ by various composers. Handel published a set based on earlier works cobbled together by his publisher, the _Opus 2_ and _Opus 5_ sets. Corelli wrote quite a numer too.

It's like asking if the _Trio Sonata_ was associated with the Romantic period, or if the _Symphonic Poem_ was associated with the Classical period.


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## hocket

You should also look at the English consort of viols from the 16th and 17th centuries which is certainly a precursor to the string quartet (though they range from anything from two to six viols). There's quite a lot of this stuff. Tye, Byrd, Gibbons, Ferrabosco (father and son), Coprario, Tomkins, Jenkins, Lawes, Locke and Purcell all spring immediately to mind. Fretwork and Phantasm are the most admired performers of this stuff but the Rose Consort, Concordia and Jordi Savall have also done mighty deeds.

Here's something from 'that rare musician' Orlando Gibbons:


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## jurianbai

Turn out the Trio is also likely perform by four players. The basso continuo is a cello and harpsichord. I read that chamber music in Baroque is aims for amateur musician , played for themself without audience. Thus the composition likely easy and short.






and this one sounds really good, Gluck is about same era with Haydn. 





@hocket: like that video, and we need more talk about 'rare musician' especially in this 'rare' era.


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## Conor71

An interesting topic  - I was able to find a recording which has one of the Scarlatti Quartets (I may buy this!):

 Amazon product link 










Does anyone else know of any other recordings which feature pre-Haydn SQ ensembles?.


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## nefigah

The organ is the best instrument because it can play a trio sonata by itself 

I remember reading that one stroke of genius of Haydn was using a cello for bass instead of a double bass in the SQ form, as it was capable of a melody line in its own right


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## jurianbai

See wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_string_quartet_composers#Born_before_1800, Sammartini and Canabich can be as early as Haydn in composing a quartet.


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## Roberto

Do you know the Mozart 'Haydn Quartets' ie the set of six he dedicated to Haydn? Of the quartets I have heard these are the finest group I think. [k 387 421 458 464 465 and one other]. The slow movements are sublime. My favourite is k421 in D minor, and next probably the Eb one. You can listen to these again and again and be amazed and enchanted every time. Perfection...


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## hocket

*jurianbai wrote:*



> Sammartini and Canabich can be as early as Haydn in composing a quartet.


It would be interesting to know when Sammartini published his quartets as he is strongly suspected of being a key influence on Haydn's symponies in spite of the latter's vociferous denials.


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## Chasman

I'm nothing like an expert, but I've assembled a long list of classical era string quartet composers here: http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/p/composers.html

Chasing down the earlier ones might prove rewarding.


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## Quartetfore

Some very fine works were composed by Dittersdorf, and if you enjoy music of the time are worth looking into.


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## Ukko

*Before Haydn?*

Before Haydn's 'transitional' Opus 17, there probably were no string quartets - in the sense of giving some 1st voicing to instruments other than vln 1 . Lots of divertimenti and similar music, with the 1st violin dominating the material. I suppose it all depends on one's interpretation of 'quartet'. For me, a leader and three 'hangers on' do not constitute a quartet.


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## jurianbai

Chasman said:


> I'm nothing like an expert, but I've assembled a long list of classical era string quartet composers here: http://thesavagebreast.blogspot.com/p/composers.html
> 
> Chasing down the earlier ones might prove rewarding.


thanks for the blog. Exactly what I really like to do in collecting SQ from classical era.

I am intrique with your earlist composer on the list, Joseph Gibbs' six quartets .



> Gibbs, Joseph (1699-1788)
> English organist and composer. He was an organist at various Essex churches, finally at St Mary-le-Tower, Ipswich, from 1748 until his death. His most important publication is a set of eight violin sonatas (dating from about 1746); six string quartets (from about 1777) and organ music also survive.


from wikipedia Haydn's Opus.9 and so on listed a year of 1771.

edited: Franz Xaver Richter got even earliest: 
String quartets Op. 5 Nr. 1-6 (1757)


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## opus55

I always wondered myself too - anyone else before Haydn composed for SQ? I'm surprised that Haydn accidently discovered it according to wikipedia.


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## jurianbai

Haydn Op. 1 no.1 is published around 1757 to 1758 according to my Kodaly's CD booklet.

Franz Xaver Richter String quartets Op. 5 Nr. 1-6 (1757)

Anders Wesstrom published string quartet - 1760:





Franz Asplmayr (1728-1786) String Quartet Op.6 - 1765
Kammel published string quartet around 1770 (see link)

Gossec String quartet Op.15 - 1773

Youtube video:

FX Richter




Johann Georg Albrechtsberger


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## jurianbai

Got this week ago : Christian Joseph (Cristiano Giussepe) Lidarti (1730-1795). The CD has three interesting classical era violin concertos and a "Quartet for String in G" which for string quartet formation, from the note it's published in 1768, as 'Sinfonias'.


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## hocket

*opus 55 wrote:*



> I always wondered myself too - anyone else before Haydn composed for SQ? I'm surprised that Haydn accidently discovered it according to wikipedia.


I followed up on this a bit after commenting earlier. Alessandro Scarlatti certainly wrote a String Quartet ; I don't have a copy but I've seen it described as having a lot in common with the Viol Consort. Sammartini wrote many four part string Sinfonias and it really depends on whether you choose to perform the bass part on harpsichord or cello as to whether they are classic 'string quartets' or not. Indeed, after enquiring here I later discovered that I already owned quite a few of them. Sammartini is generally acknowledged as a major influence on Haydn (even though he strenuously denied it) and was a key figure in the development of the Classical style. Interestingly enough I understand that Boccherini was a player under Sammartini's direction for a while too.


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## Chasman

Nice catch, jurianbai. The list will be updated shortly.

Took me a while, but I've now seen your PM. I am unable to reply, if I understand corectly, until I have posted 5 times, thus my note here.

Thanks for the tip.


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## Novelette

Also impressive are Rameau's "Pieces de Clavecin en Concert"!


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## clavichorder

Haydn might be the one who recognized it as a significant formal invention. That is nearly as good as being the first to ever think of that instrumentation. To infuse it with that sonata form quality, to make it a "string quartet" as a comparable thing to sonata or symphony, and not just a piece for a quartet of strings.


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## Novelette

And with what tender genius he nurtured the formal String Quartet.

Auspicious beginning, in auspicious hands. No wonder it became such a significant part of the composer's arsenal. And to what heights Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, et al took it!


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## KenOC

Monday morning staff meeting at Haydn Enterprises, Inc.

FJ: OK, we need some seriously new ideas around here. Who has 'em?

Underling: Well, FJ, I think you should consider a new kind of chamber music.

FJ: Chamber music? Symphonies are the hot thing. So what's the point?

Underling: Well, you could write for four strings, like that Sammartini guy, but make it like a symphony. Ease 'em in, you know, write like serenades at first, then WHAM! hit 'em with four movements, sonata form, the whole nine yards.

FJ: So what's the point of that?

Underling: Sheet music sales! Gobs and gobs of revenue! Like, who buys symphony scores? But every scrappy bunch of buddies with four fiddles will shell out their shekels. And the form has legs. You can write dozens, just like the symphonies, and a lot quicker too. Crank 'em out, and you'll reel the money in.

FJ: Hmmm. Well, let me think about that. Anything else?

Underling: Yeah. Don't forget nicknames. Nothing like nicknames to give sales a quick kick in the butt!


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## bejart

Posted this yesterday on the 'Current Listening' thread.

"Among the very first works that can be identified as a 'string quartet', probably composed in the 1740's:

Baldassarre Galuppi (1706-1785): Concerto a quattro in B Minor

Quartetto Aglaia: Cinzia Barbagelata and Simona Gilardi, violins - Marco Diatto, viola - Jorge Alberto Guerrero, cello"

View attachment 11744


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## bejart

Here's Ensemble Il Falcone performing the Galuppi --


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