# Mahler Symphony no 9



## DavidA

I recently sorted out John Barbirolli's Mahler 9 he made with the BPO. It really does divide opinion between those who see it as one of the great Mahler performances and others who see it as one of the worst. I was reading two reviews and I couldn't believe they were listening to the same recording.
So what is the opinion of readers of TC? And what other recordings of this work would you recommend?


----------



## joen_cph

It´s been a long time since I heard it, and I´ve got his 5th and 6th too, but I feel that those recordings are simply too bleak for my taste. I don´t hear much of a singing, humane quality in his versions, and they tend to be very slow. But as said, it´s been a while since I heard them, maybe I´d revise that view somewhat nowadays. Obviously, some will disagree. I know that Barbirolli said that preparing a Mahler symphony for performance requires one year´s work, which suggests a lot of intellectual reflexion on the approach.

Kondrashin´s represents a more classicist, tight yet very dramatic view of the 9th for example, that can be felt as refreshing. 

I´ve also got Karajan´s two DG versions, Walter´s 1938 and the late stereo, Bernstein/NYPO, Tennstedt, Kubelik and Scherchen. Walter´s feverish 1938 is one of those I also tend to return to, Scherchen´s less so.

I don´t think I´ve heard the Kubelik yet.


----------



## elgar's ghost

I'd suggest Bruno Maderna's live recording from 1971 with the BBCSO for anyone who wants a visceral, exposed nerves-ends experience, although it could be argued that Maderna plays a bit fast and loose with some aspects of the final movement insofar as he doesn't restrain himself as much as he possibly should in places. In terms of raw emotion this is like Barbirolli's and then some. Sound certainly isn't great, and the coughs and splutters are intrusive during the quieter moments, but at least it's stereo. The recording is now out of print and expensive, but if it can be streamed from anywhere go for it.


----------



## CnC Bartok

I have two favourite recordings of this giant among symphonies, a choice for me out of about 25 recordings in my collection. Barbirolli is one of the better ones for me, as there has to be a balance between the tight symphonic of Herr Mahler and the unbridled pathos. Too much of the latter isn't always what I want. Karajan, Abbado, and Bernstein are for occasional hearing only.....

Solti's earlier London recording really impresses me, especially in the tight flow of the first movement, and the scarily violent Scherzo. I doubt I'll win many friends by recommending that recording, but I don't care! Nevertheless my favorite of all has to be Karel Ancerl on Supraphon. Just right from first bar to last.


----------



## Becca

Robert Pickett said:


> I have two favourite recordings of this giant among symphonies, a choice for me out of about 25 recordings in my collection. Barbirolli is one of the better ones for me, as there has to be a balance between the tight symphonic of Herr Mahler and the unbridled pathos. Too much of the latter isn't always what I want. Karajan, Abbado, and Bernstein are for occasional hearing only.....
> .


From Tony Duggan's extensive review of the Mahler 9th recordings...

"_...Barbirolli is more passionate than his colleagues, more involved personally, yet tempers this with clarity of focus that's a living example of a quotation of Bertrand Russell that Michael Kennedy found in Sir John's papers after his death: "*Nothing great is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire.*" Passion with limits is what you get here..._"


----------



## Art Rock

After quickly ditching the Levine which I had bought about 30 years ago, because of very bad sound (at least at the time, maybe subsequent remasters have been better), I bought the Barbirolli, and have been very happy with it. In recent years I added other interpretations (a.o. Kubelik, Boulez, Haitink) that are worthwhile, but if I could take only one, it might be the Barbirolli.


----------



## mbhaub

I rank the Barbirolli among the very best. He doesn't wallow in it like Bernstein, has much more depth than Solti, and it seems perfectly paced. In general, I find Barbirolli's Mahler to be exceptional - all of it. His 6th is still my reference version, some 50 years after having first heard it. The Berlin Philharmonic players made two later versions with Karajan. The first was ok. The later was terrific and several players have said that while Karajan conducted they still remembered how Barbirolli taught it to them and played it that way.


----------



## Becca

mbhaub said:


> . His 6th is still my reference version, some 50 years after having first heard it..


Have you listened to the Testament release of Barbirolli's 6th done at the Proms a few days before the studio recording? I find the tempo of the 1st movement in the studio recording to drag too much, something that is not an issue with his live performance. If I remember correctly, there is about a 2 minute difference between them in that movement.

As to Bernstein, it often seems that he forgot the part about "there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire"


----------



## mbhaub

Becca said:


> Have you listened to the Testament release of Barbirolli's 6th done at the Proms a few days before the studio recording? I find the tempo of the 1st movement in the studio recording to drag too much, something that is not an issue with his live performance. If I remember correctly, there is about a 2 minute difference between them in that movement.
> 
> As to Bernstein, it often seems that he forgot the part about "there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets limits to actions that our passions inspire"


I have, and it does have that extra something of a live performance. But I prefer the EMI studio recording - his grunting and all. The gravitas of that first movement is so compelling.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Barbirolli's is great, depending on my mood. Walter's first recording has a more off-hand appeal to me. My favourite though, is Klemperer's. I don't listen to the Bernstein anymore after the first time.


----------



## Kiki

I find Barbirolli's Mahler 9 a bit on the chilly side, which fits my "humane but gloomy" impression of this symphony. I do find the clicks in the editing/mastering distracting, especially in the first movement. They are present at the same places in both the CD and the hi-res download, so I'm pretty sure they are not CD manufacturing faults. Others may feel less distracted though.


----------



## joen_cph

I´ve only got the LP version. There may be a difference in the CD transfers.


----------



## Kiki

Treasure! Take good care of it! I suppose it's only natural that EMI re-mastered from the analogue tapes to make the digital master for the CD and then re-used it for the hi-res version. Won't be surprised if these clicks were a result of the re-mastering.


----------



## realdealblues

Barbirolli's Mahler 9th is one I think everyone should hear just to contrast different ideas about how this symphony can be performed. That said it's not my personal favorite. I don't think it's anywhere near the bottom and I certainly don't hate it. I just prefer others. I have no idea how many recordings I have of the 9th, 60 maybe? There are lots of good ones out there.

I don't have a single favorite, but if I had to pick a few favorites, like a Top 15:

Bruno Walter/Columbia Symphony Orchestra (1961)
Leonard Bernstein/New York Philharmonic (1965)
Karel Ancerl/Czech Philharmonic (1966)
Otto Klemperer/New Philharmonia Orchestra (1967)
Rafael Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra (1967)
Georg Solti/London Symphony Orchestra (1967)
Kurt Sanderling/Berlin Symphony (1979)
Herbert Von Karajan/Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (1980 & 1982 Live)
Leonard Bernstein/Concertgebouw Orchestra (1985)
Seiji Ozawa/Boston Symphony Orchestra (1989 Live)
Michael Gielen/SWR Symphony Orchestra Baden-Baden (1990)
Gary Bertini/Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra (1991)
Seiji Ozawa/Saito Kinen Orchestra (2001 Live)
Riccardo Chailly/Concertgebouw Orchestra (2004)


----------



## CnC Bartok

Well, you got my two favourites in your top 15, so I suspect we're probably singing from the same hymn sheet! 

Actually, I am also glad you put Michael Gielen's recording there too, it's crystal clear and unfussy, a very refreshing version. And Bertini is great too, debatable one of the most consistent and satisfying cycles, the Ninth being a highlight. I am afraid I am very unconvinced by the Boston/Ozawa you mention, though.

Another very fine recording I could have mentioned would be Vaclav Neumann on Supraphon. I like most of Neumann's work, but his Mahler is sadly overlooked and under-rated.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

My preferred Mahler 9 is Klemperer/New Philharmonia, followed by Barbirolli/Berlin Philharmonic and Walter/Columbia Symphony.


----------



## Becca

While the Barbirolli is at the top of my list, let me also comment that the Rattle/BPO recording (NOT his ViennaPhil) is well worth investigating.

From a Tony Duggan review...
"_Returning to the recordings I listed at the start of this review [Walter, Barbirolli, Klemperer, Horenstein, Haitink] as being, for me, the outstanding ones I would not say this new [Rattle/BPO] recording supplants any of them. However, I am convinced that it joins them as one of the finest recordings of the work that I have ever heard in terms of conception, playing and recording _. "


----------



## Josquin13

I definitely think the Barbirolli BPO performance is worth having in any Mahler collection. It's more passionate and fully characterized than many of the cooler versions I hear nowadays. However, the problem with the older recordings, and Barbirolli's is no exception, is that you don't get to hear the full range of Mahler's detailed orchestration. Mahler's symphonies are extremely difficult to record well, even today, but especially back then.

Otherwise, my favorites 9ths over the decades have come from Ancerl, Giulini CSO, Walter/Columbia, Bernstein NYPhil/Sony (but not his later DG recordings, which I dislike), Klemperer/Philharmonia, and more recently, among digital era recordings--Chailly's two recordings: his Concertgebouw studio (for Decca), and live Leipzig performance (on DVD), Haitink's 1987 live X-mas concert at the Concertgebouw (much better than his earlier Philips recording): 



, and finally Segerstam's 9th with the Danish NRSO on Chandos: 



. Among these, Chailly's 2nd recording at the Gewandhaus is a standout, in my view; although some find his Mahler 9s too cool, I don't:






Oh yes, I've also liked Gunther Herbig's 9th, with the Saarbrucken RSO.

My two audiophile picks would be Chailly's 1st Concertgebouw recording on Decca hybrid SACD, and Zdenek Macal's hybrid SACD recording on the Japanese Exton label, with the Czech Philharmonic, which offers phenomenal sound engineering, it's almost like hearing Mahler in the concert hall (an impossible feat): https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Zdene...ton+mahler+9&qid=1540675909&sr=8-8&ref=sr_1_8


----------



## Heck148

Mahler 9 is one of my very favorite works, and a work that I rank among the greatest of all compositions...

Barbirolli/BPO was my first intro to the work, that I purchased while still in high school...I enjoyed itm I guess, but Walter ColSO totally blew it away in all respects...
The Walter/Col is still one of my favorites, it stacks up well....mikes are set back a bitm, compared to newer versions, but the balance is good - balance is often a problem with M9 recordings.
over the years, my favorite, overall is Giulini/Chicago, a truly remarkable performance....nobody gets the great first mvt like Giulini - each successive climax building in power and intensity...superb grasp of the dramatic flow, and structure of this great work...inner movements are wonderful as well. Chicago sounds incredible, with wonderful solo work in the small chamber-music sections, and big booming power, excellently balanced in the great climaxes....fine finale - tho I think Solti/CSO edges him out by a little...Solti always a master in the long build-up, shattering release department!! Boulez/CSO is another really great one, nearly as good as Giulini....wonderful inner movements - tempo relations are maintained well [a frequent problem with so many - Bernstein/NYPO, and Svetlanov (gawd!! horrific!!)]
Neumann/CzPO has some very positive attributes, but overall, not on the level of the aforementioned....

I've heard this work live now, several times...Abbado/BPO - tremendous performance, tho the BPO winds were a bit underpowered - superb conducting....Levine/BSO - a fine performance - but Jimmy let things get too loud for too long...Abbado got into the rising/falling flow better....
last year, I heard Salonen/CSO at Orchestra Hall - this was the best one - super performance - reminiscent of Giulini's great effort, but even better because it was "live"!! Salonen had a fine grasp of the work - the flow, the drama came across beautifully,andth eorchestra sounded great....


----------



## Triplets

The Great is the enemy of the Good. There are many worthy Mahler 9s, and I have a slew of them.. I don’t find Klemperer, Barbirolli, and some of the others , worthy versions all, to be my final choice. I’ll nominate a dark horse: Karen Ancerl and the Czech PO on Supraphon


----------



## DarkAngel

Triplets said:


> The Great is the enemy of the Good. There are many worthy Mahler 9s, and I have a slew of them.. I don't find Klemperer, Barbirolli, and some of the others , worthy versions all, to be my final choice. *I'll nominate a dark horse: Karen Ancerl and the Czech PO on Supraphon*


Glad to see the Ancerl 9th mentioned a couple times, perhaps my favorite modern recording also......

The 1938 Walter live recording with WP must be treasured as a reference document also, Walter worked directly with composer and they shared personal and religious affinities, he knew the composer's intentions and this performance timing at 69 minutes is so much faster than modern 2CD glacial timings of 80-90+ that we must wonder what has happened over time and how far we have strayed from original performance intentions of composer.........


----------



## Becca

DarkAngel said:


> Glad to see the Ancerl 9th mentioned a couple times, perhaps my favorite modern recording also......
> 
> The 1938 Walter live recording with WP must be treasured as a reference document also, Walter worked directly with composer and they shared personal and religious affinities, he knew the composer's intentions and *this performance timing at 69 minutes is so much faster than modern 2CD* glacial timings of 80-90+ that we must wonder what has happened over time and how far we have strayed from original performance intentions of composer.........


That seems to be a general problem as witness the timings for the Walter/Klemperer/Barbirolli versions of the 2nd compared to others, also the adagietto from the 5th. I haven't done any direct comparison about 3rd (not as easy) but suspect that it is also true of the last movement.


----------



## Totenfeier

I'm very, very fond of Barbirolli's Mahler in general, but you have to be prepared to accept his meditative tempi (I'm looking at you, Klaus). Bottom-line, last-ditch, gun-to-the-head, desert-island, put-it-in-the-space-capsule M9:

1938 Walter WP


----------



## wkasimer

Becca said:


> That seems to be a general problem as witness the timings for the Walter/Klemperer/Barbirolli versions of the 2nd compared to others, also the adagietto from the 5th. I haven't done any direct comparison about 3rd (not as easy) but suspect that it is also true of the last movement.


It's a little hard to evaluate, since none of them made a commercial recording of #3, and I don't believe that Walter or Klemperer ever conducted it - at least no broadcast has come to my attention. Looking at timings via Amazon, there seems to be somewhat less variability in the finale of #3, and I don't detect a pattern. The average looks to be around 23 minutes, with a couple of quicker versions (Solti and Gergiev in under 21 minutes) and a few in the 24-25 minute range. The only outlier I found was Bernstein's DG recording, in which he takes 28 minutes.


----------



## Larkenfield

I greatly esteem Barbirolli’s tremendous recordings of the 5th (my go-to recording) and 6th (Proms). But his view of the 9th was far too bleak and I’ve only wanted to hear it once, then forget it. Give me Bruno Walter’s superb performance with the CSO any day of the week. I was deeply moved by it, not being a deeply defeatist, pessimistic and hopeless interpretation, and it has left an indelible impression on me, a favorable one, of a resilient Mahler, a Mahler who did not succumb to defeat because of his emotional losses and bad health. I never wish to hear Barbarolli’s depressive performance again, and he’s one of my favorite Mahler conductors. Mahler did not go on to write a 10th Symphony for nothing. He would always try to bounce back and I do not believe that he had a pessimistic view of life, though he was certainly aware of life ’s devastating losses and tragedies. What great artist would ever encourage anyone to give up on life through their art? And yet sometimes he’s played as a hopeless, defeatist neurotic.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

The earlier Barbirolli, a live performance from 1960 on IDIS, is actually even better than the EMI if you don't mind murkier sound. 

My favorites in order:

Sir John Barbirolli (1960) (IDIS, Archipel)
Sir John Barbirolli (EMI)
Bruno Walter (EMI, Dutton)
Herbert von Karajan (1982) (DG)
Otto Klemperer (EMI)
Jascha Horenstein (1966) (Music & Arts)
Kirill Kondrashin (Melodiya) 
Karel Ancerl (Supraphon) 
Jascha Horenstein (1966) (BBC) 
Jascha Horenstein (1969) (Music & Arts) 
Leonard Bernstein (1971) (DG DVD) 
Leonard Bernstein (1979) (DG) 
Simon Rattle (2007) (EMI) 
Jascha Horenstein (1953) (Vox) 
Bernard Haitink (Philips) 
Bruno Walter (Sony) 
Carlo Maria Giulini (DG) 
Dmitri Mitropoulos (Archipel, Music & Arts, Andante)


----------



## Enthusiast

Triplets said:


> The Great is the enemy of the Good. There are many worthy Mahler 9s, and I have a slew of them.. I don't find Klemperer, Barbirolli, and some of the others , worthy versions all, to be my final choice. I'll nominate a dark horse: Karen Ancerl and the Czech PO on Supraphon


I certainly agree that there are many really good performances of Mahler 9. It seems to bring out the best in many conductors. But I do not think it makes sense to only have one (or even two) favourites. The best are so distinctive and filled with character that they can't better each other. In my absolutely must have list are (alphabetically) Ancerl, Barbirolli, Boulez, Horenstein, Klemperer and Maderna. I regret not including Haitink and Karajan.


----------



## joen_cph

I've owned the Ancerl but didn't keep it. Just to illustrate the differences in taste.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Has anyone heard this one from I believe 2014?








Not much info out there on it.


----------



## Kiki

Oldhoosierdude said:


> Has anyone heard this one from I believe 2014?
> View attachment 120021
> 
> 
> Not much info out there on it.


I have this. It was recorded live in 2011. Moderate tempi. Expressive phrasing not over the top. Well balanced spectrum in the recording. As for Ashkenazy's clean and sensible sound, it might not be everybody's cup of tea. Would you like a Ländler and a Rondo-Burleske that go nuts, or rather, like them to sound more measured and articulated? He's neither. His is right in the middle. Some might find it lacking that extra bit of emotional impact of the likes of Barbirolli, but IMO it's still a solid performance that is by no means slack; although it doesn't really click with me, but your mileage may vary.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Kiki said:


> I have this. It was recorded live in 2011. Moderate tempi. Expressive phrasing not over the top. Well balanced spectrum in the recording. As for Ashkenazy's clean and sensible sound, it might not be everybody's cup of tea. Would you like a Ländler and a Rondo-Burleske that go nuts, or rather, like them to sound more measured and articulated? He's neither. His is right in the middle. Some might find it lacking that extra bit of emotional impact of the likes of Barbirolli, but IMO it's still a solid performance that is by no means slack; although it doesn't really click with me, but your mileage may vary.


Thank you. I think I can listen on youtube, so I will give it a sample.


----------



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

I attended a concert of this composition last April, quite impressive, and I share Mahler's birthday (7/7) :> .


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Kiki said:


> I have this. It was recorded live in 2011. Moderate tempi. Expressive phrasing not over the top. Well balanced spectrum in the recording. As for Ashkenazy's clean and sensible sound, it might not be everybody's cup of tea. Would you like a Ländler and a Rondo-Burleske that go nuts, or rather, like them to sound more measured and articulated? He's neither. His is right in the middle. Some might find it lacking that extra bit of emotional impact of the likes of Barbirolli, but IMO it's still a solid performance that is by no means slack; although it doesn't really click with me, but your mileage may vary.


I asked as I could obtain this at a good price. But upon thorough listening and re listening a few places, I share your conclusions and will pass on it. I have a good rendition with Abravenel / Utah Symphony. An additional 9th for me has to resonate with me significantly, which this one doesn't.


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

What do we think of this one? The entire thing is on the YouTube and I'm not sure what availability it has other than an Amazon download. I found two glowing reviews on it. One even goes so far as to suggest[SUB][/SUB] it may, over time (what does that have to do with it?), take a seat among the elite . I've only listened to the first movement.

(Live)
Benjamin Zander & Boston Philharmonic Youth Orchestra 2017


----------



## Kiki

Oldhoosierdude said:


> What do we think of this one? The entire thing is on the YouTube and I'm not sure what availability it has other than an Amazon download. I found two glowing reviews on it. One even goes so far as to suggest[SUB][/SUB] it may, over time (what does that have to do with it?), take a seat among the elite . I've only listened to the first movement.
> 
> (Live)
> Benjamin Zander & Boston Philharmonic Youth Orchestra 2017


I don't know the Zander/BPYO version, but for availability there's a CD (released in 2018 but no idea when it was recorded) listed on Amazon US (link) for a whooping USD 22, while Amazon UK and DE are selling it at an even more jaw dropping double!

Apparently it is also available on Spotify (link).


----------



## Oldhoosierdude

Kiki said:


> I don't know the Zander/BPYO version, but for availability there's a CD (released in 2018 but no idea when it was recorded) listed on Amazon US (link) for a whooping USD 22, while Amazon UK and DE are selling it at an even more jaw dropping double!
> 
> Apparently it is also available on Spotify (link).


Yeah. $20+ for cd is a bit more than I will go. The mp3 download is $3.96 however. That I may consider as I quite like this recording. I'll listen YouTube again to verify my reaction to it


----------



## regnaDkciN

Kiki said:


> I don't know the Zander/BPYO version, but for availability there's a CD (released in 2018 but no idea when it was recorded) listed on Amazon US (link) for a whooping USD 22, while Amazon UK and DE are selling it at an even more jaw dropping double!
> 
> Apparently it is also available on Spotify (link).


The Zander CD version, originally from 1999, is a three-disc set including a disc of him discussing the symphony, of which he was apparently an expert.


----------



## perdido34

Telarc released Mahler 9 with Zander conducting the Philharmonia. This is, I think, the three-disc album you're talking about.

I haven't heard his performance leading the Boston Youth Philharmonic Orchestra. However, Zander came to Severance Hall in Cleveland and led the Akron Symphony Orchestra (which is composed of professionals) in Mahler 9, preceded by an interesting lecture with demonstrations. The Akron Symphony outplayed themselves, and I treasure the memory of that afternoon.

The most common criticism of Zander's recordings is that each is a collection of point-making moments that don't hang together as a whole performance. That was definitely _not_ the case in the performance I heard. Also, his Mahler 6 is one of the finest recordings, IMO.


----------



## Gray Bean

The Zander performance of M9 with the Boston Youth Phil is amazing! I couldn’t believe it was a youth orchestra. 
I also love the Barbirolii/BPO, Karajan/BPO, and Bernstein/COA and BPO recordings.There is also a Bernstein M9 from Israel on the Helicon label that is worth hearing.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors

After a recent and good comparative listening session between Klemperer/New Philharmonia, Walter/Columbia Symphony and Barbirolli/Berlin Philharmonic, I've had a change of heart regarding my favorite interpretation of the Ninth. Klemperer, my original first choice for quite some time, has given way to Barbirolli. For now at least, there is something about the latter's poignant characterization that just sounds more convincingly right and appealing to me beyond the fine conceptions of both Klemperer and Walter.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Brahmsian Colors said:


> After a recent and good comparative listening session between Klemperer/New Philharmonia, Walter/Columbia Symphony and Barbirolli/Berlin Philharmonic, I've had a change of heart regarding my favorite interpretation of the Ninth. Klemperer, my original first choice for quite some time, has given way to Barbirolli. For now at least, there is something about the latter's poignant characterization that just sounds more convincingly right and appealing to me beyond the fine conceptions of both Klemperer and Walter.


I experienced the same with the 2nd, a piece I never liked as much as the other symphonies. I tended to hear it as more technically impressive and perhaps even simplistically bombastic, but Barbirolli's 1970 Stuttgart performance is infused with humanity.


----------



## regnaDkciN

perdido34 said:


> Telarc released Mahler 9 with Zander conducting the Philharmonia. This is, I think, the three-disc album you're talking about.


You're right; I looked up my set after posting that.


----------



## vincula

Despite the criticisms one might read on the internet, I believe Klaus Tennstedt's/LPO Mahler no.9 from 1979 deserves a devoted audition along with many of the above-mentioned versions. 

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## CnC Bartok

^^^ I think you could say the same for the vast majority of Tennstedt's Mahler! :tiphat:


----------



## vincula

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ I think you could say the same for the vast majority of Tennstedt's Mahler! :tiphat:


Yes, I am indeed a big fan of Tennstedt in general. You could add Herbert Kegel too. Always engaging. They both have a clear musical conception, and you can hear it. They don't strive for for pure perfectionism just for the sake of it. Passion and musical coherence.

Regards,

Vincula


----------



## Donna Elvira

Recently I posted on a different thread that I used to love Mahler but, since I got older, the love has faded because, in general, I don't so much like now what I described as "heavy Romanticism," and "long wnded."
I forgot about his Symphony # 9, though, which doesn't exhibit either of those traits and is more refreshing and a new direction for him.
I'm not even close to being an expert, but I do enjoy the early Bernstein on Sony/Columbia.


----------

