# Identifying a vocal pitch



## Yesshesaidit (Oct 24, 2016)

Good Evening to everyone,

I'm a newbie to all of this, so am not sure if I am even asking this question in the correct way but here goes. 

I have been listening to a female opera singer recently and there is one particular note/key/chord/pitch (i'm unsure of the differences..) that she hits, I would describe it as a deep velvety tone. I want to explore the world of opera singing, focusing on this this particular note/key/chord/pitch but don't know if this is how it all works.. 

I am unsure if this makes as much sense to anyone else as it does to me, but if anyone can tell me firstly what I should be referring to it as and possibly explain the differences it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. When the word _velvety_ is used I think of mezzo-sopranos - those who sing in a range slightly lower than screechy/dramatic sopranos. The mezzos often play the seductress role, with a suitably seductive and velvety tone. Try this one from Samson et Dalila.


----------



## Yesshesaidit (Oct 24, 2016)

*Thanks*



Don Fatale said:


> Welcome to the forum. When the word _velvety_ is used I think of mezzo-sopranos - those who sing in a range slightly lower than screechy/dramatic sopranos. The mezzos often play the seductress role, with a suitably seductive and velvety tone. ]


Hiya Don, thanks a lot for your reply. From out of nowhere this curiosity has sparked such a strong desire to want to learn more and comments such as yours have already helped me. Perhaps I am wrong in the use of the word "velvet" could I kindly ask how you would describe the vocal style of this song and young girl: 



Thanks again


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

You haven't said who the female singer is but when I think of velvety tones I immediately picture the sounds of Renee Fleming or Leontyne Price.


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Yesshesaidit said:


> note/key/chord/pitch (i'm unsure of the differences..)


It's great you're getting interested in this kind of stuff! Just some very non-technical descriptions of terms you were wondering about:
Pitch - the "highness" of a sound. Does it sound high or low?
Note - pitch, combined with a specific amount of time to be played. If you see music written, each one of those little balls-with-tails is one note.
Chord - a collection of notes, played at the same time
Key - okay, sort of more difficult to explain simply. Most pieces of music (except for weird stuff like atonal music) are built upon keys. These keys are made up of different chords. Each chord is made up of 7 pitches. Lets take, for example, C major. C major is made up of C, D, E, F, G, A, B. So, if the key of a piece is C major, most of the notes are going to be those seven pitches, so it'll sound good (mostly).

When somebody says something like "oh, I can't sing that high, I need to transpose it to a _lower key_" what they mean is they are going to take every note written and move it down the same (varying) amount. Because each note is being moved down the same number of pitches, the piece sounds pretty much the same, because all the pitches of the notes are the same distance from each other. However, it will sound generally lower, because it is in a lower key and the notes are generally lower.

As for describing how opera singers sound, that is a different manner. Describing singers/their sounds this way is not exact science. Often, people will just describe it as the first thing that they associate with the singer's sound, whether it be a sensation, texture, or emotion. Which is totally fine!
But because of this, everyone is going to have a different perception of what a word like "velvety" or "bright" or "heroic". 
So if it sounds velvety to you, then it's velvety to you!
Often, on this forum, I have found people usually describing big, lyric (especially female) voices. Usually very smooth, and can glide up to high notes and down to low notes. 
Hopefully, you will spend time reading through the forum and listening to more opera. If you do, you will certainly expand your operatic vocabulary.
I hope I was helpful.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

There are pitch devices for your smart phone that will help you zero in on what a pitch is.I use Pitch Perfect.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> You haven't said who the female singer is but when I think of velvety tones I immediately picture the sounds of Renee Fleming or Leontyne Price.


+ 1 for all the good reasons.


----------



## Yesshesaidit (Oct 24, 2016)

Thank you to everyone for all of the useful feedback. Ma7730, some really helpful and easy to understand information there, thank you so much for putting the time in.

If I could kinda refer back to an early message of mine with this link: 




Would this style of singing be classed as opera and if so, what style is it? Of course, she is a child in this video but I love the sound of her voice.

Thanks in advance everyone


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Jackie Evancho is not by any stretch an opera singer. She has an undeveloped voice that probably couldn't be heard beyond the fourth row without a microphone. Here she is five years later singing Schubert's "Ave Maria":






Now listen to Jessye Norman:


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> Jackie Evancho is not by any stretch an opera singer. She has an undeveloped voice that probably couldn't be heard beyond the fourth row without a microphone. Here she is five years later singing Schubert's "Ave Maria":
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get that some who are new to classical singing are easily wowed by these bright young (heavily promoted) things, I just hope they get the chance to compare them to properly trained singers. I guess it depends whether you prefer to look or listen.


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

I think Wodduck put it well about the type of singer Ms. Evancho is; certainly not an opera singer.
As for what type of music that piece is, I think it's a little less clear.
Indisputably, it's not opera because it is not from an opera. However is _classical_? Or to use a more wieldy term, is it _art music_?
To me, it sounds like it's not. Or if it is, I think very few would consider it musically profound, or even mildly interesting.
It sounds like something out of a musical. Therefore, it's probably closest to pop music. Which might sound odd, considering we usually conflate "pop music" with dance/clubbing songs, which this certainly sounds like. This piece sort of falls into the same category with the (in)famous "Con te partiro". They both are ostensibly classical, but really are just pop tunes.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ma7730 said:


> I think Wodduck put it well about the type of singer Ms. Evancho is; certainly not an opera singer.
> As for what type of music that piece is, I think it's a little less clear.
> Indisputably, it's not opera because it is not from an opera. However is _classical_? Or to use a more wieldy term, is it _art music_?
> To me, it sounds like it's not. Or if it is, I think very few would consider it musically profound, or even mildly interesting.
> It sounds like something out of a musical. Therefore, it's probably closest to pop music. Which might sound odd, considering we usually conflate "pop music" with dance/clubbing songs, which this certainly sounds like. This piece sort of falls into the same category with the (in)famous "Con te partiro". They both are ostensibly classical, but really are just pop tunes.


Do we need to draw our categories so precisely? It's easy to get hung up on that, but there's always been music that defies categorizing. When did dance music by Johann Strauss become classical? On the other hand, is it any less classical than Mozart's German Dances? Where is the dividing line between opera, comic opera, operetta, and musical? What, for example, is Show Boat? Or Sweeney Todd?

I wouldn't call the song that Evancho sings in post #8 classical, but it has a rather complex melody for a popular song, it's a sincere expression of its words, and it's effective sung classically "straight,"as she does sing it; a trained operatic singer could do a fine job on it with no attempt to stylize it in a "pop" sort of way. Remember that many of the songs of Stephen Foster were also written as simple, sincere, dignified expressions of poems, and were sung in classical recitals and recorded by great opera singers well into the 20th century (and still are on occasion). I don't think "popular," with its implications of commercialism, quite does justice to this sort of music. It's probably best not to worry about what to call it. But we can say confidently that Ms. Evancho should definitely not be called an opera singer!

BTW, I think she sounded worse in 2016 than in 2011 - the result of putting pressure on an untrained voice.


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Do we need to draw our categories so precisely? It's easy to get hung up on that, but there's always been music that defies categorizing. When did dance music by Johann Strauss become classical? On the other hand, is it any less classical than Mozart's German Dances? Where is the dividing line between opera, comic opera, operetta, and musical? What, for example, is Show Boat? Or Sweeney Todd?
> 
> I wouldn't call the song that Evancho sings in post #8 classical, but it has a rather complex melody for a popular song, it's a sincere expression of its words, and it's effective sung classically "straight,"as she does sing it; a trained operatic singer could do a fine job on it with no attempt to stylize it in a "pop" sort of way. Remember that many of the songs of Stephen Foster were also written as simple, sincere, dignified expressions of poems, and were sung in classical recitals and recorded by great opera singers well into the 20th century (and still are on occasion). I don't think "popular," with its implications of commercialism, quite does justice to this sort of music. It's probably best not to worry about what to call it. But we can say confidently that Ms. Evancho should definitely not be called an opera singer!
> 
> BTW, I think she sounded worse in 2016 than in 2011 - the result of putting pressure on an untrained voice.


I did say it's less clear what type of music that is. I don't think we need to draw categories precisely; But Yesshesaidit asked what kind of music it was, and I think it sounds a lot more like a musical than something classical.
Also, it could be argued that because Ms. Evancho is not classically trained, nothing she sings is classical music, even the (very little) Puccini she does. Because an aria is not just the notes - it's also contingent on the performer. And if the performer is not singing in a classical style, I don't think it can be called classical.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> I get that some who are new to classical singing are easily wowed by these bright young (heavily promoted) things, I just hope they get the chance to compare them to properly trained singers. I guess it depends whether you prefer to look or listen.


Evancho is only 16 years old. There are opera singers that have begun their training later than that. I hope she can get training and become an opera singer. Pop singers can also be fine in their own way.


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

ma7730 said:


> As for what type of music that piece is, I think it's a little less clear.
> Indisputably, it's not opera because it is not from an opera. However is _classical_? Or to use a more wieldy term, is it _art music_?
> To me, it sounds like it's not. Or if it is, I think very few would consider it musically profound, or even mildly interesting.
> It sounds like something out of a musical.


It's not a musical theater song because it's not from a musical. It works the same way as opera. Most musicals, like most operas, are (at least attempting to be) coherent, integrated dramatic works. And musicals, like operas, vary significantly in style and profoundness.

Even setting the above aside, what musicals does that piece sound like it is from? What musical theater songs seem similar in style? I cannot think of anything.


----------



## Yesshesaidit (Oct 24, 2016)

Wow, it is so interesting to read everyone's replies to this post. Thank you to everyone for your input. 
Coming from a background of Drum and bass, I suppose what Jackie is responsible for is drawing my attention to a new variety of music. Woodduck's earlier post with the comparison to Jessye Norman screams volumes, one could not dispute the difference in power, talent and ability to hold notes in such a controlled manor. 

In my mind the word "musicals" does spring to mind but as previous mentioned, It does not belong to a musical production, therefore surely the term musical lends itself more to a performance than it does to a genre. Classical pop I suppose is somewhat close, but if you search under this genre it is little related to Jackie's song. This seems to lean slightly more to covers of classic songs, such as queen for example but sung in a pop style, by a artist such as Beyonce.

Whilst I can appreciate the likes of true opera singers, I enjoy the sound of a solo female voice but in more of a soft tone, if that makes sense. Ma7730 mentioned the song "Con te partiro", this is a personal favourite, however if you search "pop music" it doesn't seem to find the style that I am trying to explore. What other songs would you liken to Con the Partiro?

Thanks again everyone


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> It's not a musical theater song because it's not from a musical. It works the same way as opera. Most musicals, like most operas, are (at least attempting to be) coherent, integrated dramatic works. And musicals, like operas, vary significantly in style and profoundness.
> 
> Even setting the above aside, what musicals does that piece sound like it is from? What musical theater songs seem similar in style? I cannot think of anything.


I dunno. I guess you're right. What would you call the piece?


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

That is certainly a tough question. It doesn't sound similar to much that I listen to or like, which makes it difficult.

Pop music listeners may hear the orchestra and chorus and unfamiliar vocal style and see it as classical or operatic-style music. Listeners of classical art songs, lieder, and operatic music will not find the vocal styling, vocal control, etc. that they're looking for.

But I think I would call it classical crossover, even if that's a bit of a cop-out. I think you were right to bring up "Con te partirò" as a similar piece. In addition to Andrea Bocelli, I'd bring up Alfie Boe and Russell Watson as examples. And before Jackie Evancho there was Charlotte Church.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> That is certainly a tough question. It doesn't sound similar to much that I listen to or like, which makes it difficult.
> 
> Pop music listeners may hear the orchestra and chorus and unfamiliar vocal style and see it as classical or operatic-style music. Listeners of classical art songs, lieder, and operatic music will not find the vocal styling, vocal control, etc. that they're looking for.
> 
> But I think I would call it classical crossover, even if that's a bit of a cop-out. I think you were right to bring up "Con te partirò" as a similar piece. In addition to Andrea Bocelli, I'd bring up Alfie Boe and Russell Watson as examples. And before Jackie Evancho there was Charlotte Church.


It is called popera.
A genre within pop music that should be viewed and respected as such.


----------

