# What was Buxtehude and Teleman godz earlier classical composers?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

Who inspired these clssical godz of baroque debut?


Did both of them mention a singular guy?
or there influence are differents?

:tiphat:


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Telemann isn't even a demigod. That said, Sweelinck, Froberger, and Schütz are all important composers on the peripheries of Germany in the early 17th century - Schütz maybe the most important if we judge from the fact that Handel and Bach emerged simultaneously but independently in the vicinity of his old stomping grounds.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

deprofundis said:


> Who inspired these clssical godz of baroque debut?
> 
> 
> Did both of them mention a singular guy?
> ...


For Buxtehude you might want to think about Frescobaldi, and Tunder. Possibly Froberger and Corelli too. These musicians were very international.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

deprofundis said:


> Who inspired these clssical godz of baroque debut?
> 
> 
> Did both of them mention a singular guy?
> ...


Girolamo Frescobaldi, a little bit of Froberger maybe
Johann Caspar Kerll was very famous, and probably influenced a bit too
Alessandro Poglietti influenced these times (even J.S.Bach was influenced by him)
This can be a starting point for your research :tiphat:


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## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

I happen to have a Frescobaldi double cd on brilliant classical called: Fantasie a quattro , canzoni alla francese , neat

:tiphat: thanks guys


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

For Buxtehude, it depends on what you like in his work. The organ preludes are part of a long tradition stretching from Scheidemann and Tunder, and I'd maybe advocate listening to Scheidemann first, as Tunder is a bit too strict for me. If you like Buxtehude's suites, you should check out the French harpsichord masters such as Nivers, Lebègue, d'Anglebert, and of course Louis Couperin. If you're into Buxtehude's chamber works or cantatas, you'll have to ask someone else 

Telemann was a musical omnivore and incorporated many contemporary styles, particularly ones that were enjoying high popularity at the time. Get yourself some Lully, Campra, Corelli, Caldara, etc. - all were composers he studied extensively. If you like his solo violin pieces, maybe get a recording of works by Johann Paul von Westhoff.


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## Marc (Jun 15, 2007)

For Buxtehude:

JP Sweelinck
Johann Buxtehude
Heinrich Schütz
Christoph Bernhard
Johann Theile
Franz Tunder
Matthias Weckmann


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I just browsed through Snyder's book on Bux. She's clear that both Frescobaldi's and Froberger's music were the antecedents of Buxtehude's preludes and possibly the passacaglia, she thinks that he was aware of their music via Weckmann. She also single out Scheidemann as a formal influence on some chorale preludes. 

Some people think that the suite BuxWV 229 is a homage to Lebegue -- something to explore there! The Buxtehude suites are outstanding I think and I'd like to know them better. 

He was friends with Reincken, and she suggests that Reincken's ideas about fugue were an influence on Buxtehude's, but I haven't read this discussion in detail. 

I'm not sure if there was any (direct or indirect) influence of Sweelinck, as far as I can see, no. (unless Sweelinck was an influence on Scheidemann's chorale preludes, I don't know. )


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> I just browsed through Snyder's book on Bux. She's clear that both Frescobaldi's and Froberger's music were the antecedents of Buxtehude's preludes and possibly the passacaglia, she thinks that he was aware of their music via Weckmann. She also single out Scheidemann as a formal influence on some chorale preludes.


There's no question that Frescobald and Froberger influenced Buxtehude. You don't need Snyder to tell you that - they were among the most influential keyboard composers of the century, and their influence was felt everywhere. Buxtehude's dramatic contrasts in the preludes, some rhythmic formulae, etc. all can be seen as having Frescobaldi's toccatas as their source. You can draw similar parallels elsewhere - the keyboard passacaglia was more or less Frescobaldi's invention, for example, so any later passacaglia can be said to be influenced by him.

That said, if a person likes Buxtehude's preludes and chorales and wants something similar, I believe they'd have a harder time with Frescobaldi - much harder in fact - and they'd do way better with Tunder, Scheidemann or Lübeck. There can also be little dispute about those composers' influence on Buxtehude, even if there may be no documentary evidence. Tunder was his predecessor at the Lübeck Marienkirche, famous for his organ improvisations and his Abendmusiken. Scheidemann was the single most copied and studied North German organ composer. And while Lübeck's works survive in pitifully small numbers, he was a legend: still widely known and respected in the 1720s!



Mandryka said:


> He was friends with Reincken, and she suggests that Reincken's ideas about fugue were an influence on Buxtehude's, but I haven't read this discussion in detail.


Given the scarcity of surviving works by Reincken, I don't think a meaningful discussion is at all possible about what his theories were and how he put them into practice. It's been some time since I read Snyder's book, though. I may be mistaken.



Mandryka said:


> (unless Sweelinck was an influence on Scheidemann's chorale preludes, I don't know. )


But of course he was! Scheidemann went to Amsterdam to study with Sweelinck. The latter liked him so much there's a canon by Sweelinck dedicated to Scheidemann. Sweelinck was a massive, huge influence on the entire German organ landscape - just pick up a list of his pupils sometime. At one point all of Hamburg's major churches had a Sweelinck pupil at the organ - something Mattheson still remembered and thought worth noting when writing his musical biographies in the 1720s.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Myriadi said:


> There's no question that Frescobald and Froberger influenced Buxtehude. You don't need Snyder to tell you that - they were among the most influential keyboard composers of the century, and their influence was felt everywhere. Buxtehude's dramatic contrasts in the preludes, some rhythmic formulae, etc. all can be seen as having Frescobaldi's toccatas as their source. You can draw similar parallels elsewhere - the keyboard passacaglia was more or less Frescobaldi's invention, for example, so any later passacaglia can be said to be influenced by him.
> 
> That said, if a person likes Buxtehude's preludes and chorales and wants something similar, I believe they'd have a harder time with Frescobaldi - much harder in fact - and they'd do way better with Tunder, Scheidemann or Lübeck. There can also be little dispute about those composers' influence on Buxtehude, even if there may be no documentary evidence. Tunder was his predecessor at the Lübeck Marienkirche, famous for his organ improvisations and his Abendmusiken. Scheidemann was the single most copied and studied North German organ composer. And while Lübeck's works survive in pitifully small numbers, he was a legend: still widely known and respected in the 1720s!
> 
> ...


Yes, what you say about Scheidemann and Sweelinck is plausible. By the way, I've just discovered a really nice handful of Scheidemann pieces played by Leonhardt at Marienhafe, on a Seon recording of North German music. Years and years ago Premont said to me that he thought that Leonhardt was a great exponent of stylus fantasticus, his words came back to me while I was listening to that Marienhafe recital. It's such a shame he didn't record more Buxtehude.


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