# Best Scarpia



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well thanks so much to DarkAngel for recommending the Danielle De Niese concert Friday night! It was WONDERFUL. The lady is a showgirl. A mini Mae West. The only seating was lawn (apparently a LOT of people checked on that or knew it ahead of time and came prepared - not me) so I was a bit uncomfortable, but pass on. Honestly, she's not a great singer, but she does sing awfully well, and she's such a good stage presence - a big smile and little wiggle - that I for one would not object if the Met were to just get her to sing every soprano role from now on. Who needs Netrebko or Mattila? All you need is De Niese. Can't you just see her as Brunnhilde? Turandot? Lulu? well, I've gone too far, as usual. I could kick myself - my nose was a little runny, and the number of times, trying to get there, that I almost gave up and said, ah, it probably won't be that good, and went home - whew. that was close. But I got there.

John Del Carlo, unfortunately, has about lost his voice. His last Bartolo was weak, and his last Don Pasquale was weak - and it's such a shame. I don't know how many of you have seen and loved the Met's enormous hit Barber of Seville, but his Bartolo was the granite monolith that kept it all in the air. The linchpin, that held it all together. The central feather, that touched the tickly point. Just a fantastic job. Well, everything must pass. He did sing enjoyably at the concert - his real accent is deep mid-America - and his most memorable number was "Try to Remember," from The Fantasticks (early Mozart).

Dmitri Pittas was pretty dang good. I know his performance in the recent London Macbeth was not great, but he produced a very memorable Una Furtiva Lagrima. OMG it was good. I requested an encore but nobody seconded me. They did hush and listen when he was singing, though. He did the "How do I live? I live!" aria from La Boheme, the "Quasi in ciel" aria from Traviata, and something else half in German and half in English that I didn't recognize but a number of other people did and sang along to a bit.

De Niese sang a couple of Dowland songs very well I thought, early in the program, and various duets did popular selections from Don Pasquale and l'Elisir d'Amore. They were wonderful. This six-year-old girl started dancing extemporaneously on the grass not far from me during De Niese/Pittas' l'Elisir d'Amore duet, and it was really charming. De Niese wrapped it all up with "Meine Lippen Sie Kuessen so Heiss," by Lehar, and it was the blowout performance we all needed to get up off our dead behinds and give the whole troupe a standing O.

I never noticed before but newspaper and magazine reviews never seem to mention the reviewer having fun, do they? The Wednesday performance of the same set by the same group at a different location got a wonderful review, but the reviewer never mentioned his own feelings once. Seems to think of himself as a human performance quality chromatograph, I guess. Sniff.

I also want to thank those who recommended Hampson's Scarpia. I got that DVD a week or so ago and watched it and it was really very enjoyable. He was much better than I imagined he could be in that role. What's more, I've never enjoyed Tosca that much ever. Emily Magee as Tosca? Who is she? Answer: very very appealing. She just got into the role, and lived it. It was great. Not a classic beauty, but someone you could fall into if you were standing a little crossways … it would probably be a bit plushy, and smell good … hmm.

So the Question is - yes, there's a question at the end of all that - who's the best Scarpia ever, in a full-length video that's commercially available?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I can't answer your Scarpia question because I've not seen one which really blew my socks off (yet) but when I do I'll certainly tell everyone about him.

As to your review of the concert - interesting, informative & hilarious & I hope you go to lots just so I can enjoy your reviews! You're right, the reviewer's feelings & reactions are important & should be taken into account. 

And take a cushion next time.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> I can't answer your Scarpia question because I've not seen one which really blew my socks off (yet) but when I do I'll certainly tell everyone about him.
> 
> As to your review of the concert - interesting, informative & hilarious & I hope you go to lots just so I can enjoy your reviews! You're right, the reviewer's feelings & reactions are important & should be taken into account.
> 
> And take a cushion next time.


Thanks Annie!!


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Who's the best Scarpia ever, in a full-length video that's commercially available?

My choice is Thomas Hampson in the video from the Zürich Opera.









He is not the crude, brutal thug that some turn Scarpia into. He's very smooth and suave, but underneath that exterior, as malicious and sadistic a villain as one can imagine. I've always said his Scarpia is the sort who could smile very pleasantly at you while he's torturing you.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

My favourite Scarpia ever is Ruggero Raimondi as "Terrifying but Sexy Scarpia" from this:










You have to buy it bundled in Domingo's "greatest roles" boxset, but it is a wonderful experience, filmed live over real time and in the real locations of Tosca.

Raimondi is good too as "Still sexy but more brutal" Scarpia in this:










A lot of people are keen on Sherrill Milnes' "Implacable Scarpia" in this:










and it certainly has the most beautiful delicate refined Tosca in Raina Kabaivanska.

And then there is "classic political" Scarpia here:










and of course you've already seen "suave psychopath" Scapia in the one Mary recommended.










Don't forget we have the joys of Bryn Terfel's Scarpia coming up in september, in the ROH production that can be viewed online here.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> and of course you've already seen "suave psychopath" Scarpia in the one Mary recommended.


Zurich seem to film quite a lot of their productions... I haven't seen this Tosca - is it 'Regie'?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> Zurich seem to film quite a lot of their productions... I haven't seen this Tosca - is it 'Regie'?


:lol: Definitely, and doesn't make a lot of sense. It's set in a theatre, not sure why. But I just ignored the direction and enjoyed the performances.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> :lol: Definitely, and doesn't make a lot of sense.














mamascarlatti said:


> It's set in a theatre, not sure why. But I just ignored the direction and enjoyed the performances.


Is there any audience participation?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro;334509 said:


> Is there any audience participation?


No, but I'd volunteer to mop THIS Cavaradossi's fevered brow any time!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

sospiro said:


> Zurich seem to film quite a lot of their productions... I haven't seen this Tosca - is it 'Regie'?


It most definitely is, and I rather liked it. It mostly deals with how entertainment has become the new religion of the masses (replacing the church with a theatre), and how it's all an illusion (after Tosca jumps, she comes back on stage backlit and bows, acknowledging the audience as the character Floria Tosca). But the details are fuzzy. It's been a while since I saw it. 
Also, the production is really stylish. And it has Emily Magee AND Jonas Kaufmann AND the super creepy non-brute Scarpia of Thomas Hampson. Do get it.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

My choice for Scarpia would always be Giuseppe Taddei from the superlative recording with Giuseppe di Stefano and Leontyne Price. He just sounds so sinister and cruel without the need to bark!

On Video/DVD i remember being hugely impressed with Ingvar Wixell. This was in the Arena di Verona production with Eva Marton and Giacomo Aragall. I am not sure you could get a better cast ....ever!!! I love Eva Marton and Giacomo Aragall is my favourite tenor of all time.

Ingvar Wixell is a really good actor/singer and he truly plays the part of Scarpia.

I think the problem for many is either (1) barking too much or (2) too light a voice.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Tito Gobbi (the post can be closed now)  I'm just kidding.

Tito Gobbi is my Scarpia model. So every Scarpia i see i compare to him. Ruggero Raimondi (i think there one with him conducted by Karajan) or Leo Nucci are other great Scarpias. I do know care much for Terfel's Scarpia. Sure i has the physique du role but it's the voice tha does not get to me.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

You know for some reason i can't like Tito Gobbi - his voice just doesn't do anything for me. Now, I enjoyed Ruggero Raimondi in the DVD of Tosca from Madrid with Daniela Dessi and Fabio Armiliato. His resources were over-stretched but he is really i terrific artist, with great acting ability and intellect and he makes it work. For some reason his portrayal with Alagna and Gheorghiu left me cold.

As for Hampson/Kaufmann/Magee...i agree with others, i enjoyed these singers (rather than the production which is not that great. Hampson is a rather light Scarpia but again he is intelligent and rather than bark his way through it he caresses every word and makes a chilling effect.

Scarpia's i don't like....Terfel. Not a role for him -he should stick to Leporello/Don Giovanni and Wagner

Watch Wixell here: 



 and


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

On the other hand, Gobbi as Marcelo calling Musetta Sirena (the recording conducted by Antonio Votto) does not seem the most tender one. I hear Scarpia embracing Musetta rapidly!

I know Fischer-Diskau had been Scarpia but i've never heard. However i feel it might be an interesting one.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*dos tomatoes*
it is good you got in a free show with Danni, her strength is charisma and stage presence.....delightful fun performances

*Ruggero Raimondi*
This would be my top Scarpia of the DVD age, countless performances 1980s, 1990s. He was a sophisicated sly Scarpia that gave the character some extra dimension, so natural and convincing in his devious manner


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> :lol: Definitely, and doesn't make a lot of sense. It's set in a theatre, not sure why. But I just ignored the direction and enjoyed the performances.


Huh - I just watched it and I would NEVER have said it was "Regie". Everything looked pretty straightforward to me. I thought Regie was where the director turns Tosca into a dancing clown or something, and all the other cast members' emotional centers of gravity change as a result, so people that go expecting Tosca don't recognize it ... ?

Now, it wasn't a high production value set. The church was a bunch of chairs set up to face one direction, the palazzo was a big empty room with a desk and a few stage lights, the prison was just kind of the hint of a prison.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Ingvar Wixell is a really good actor/singer and he truly plays the part of Scarpia.


I know what you mean. Wixell as Belcore - that one moment when he offers the flowers to Adina - "Io ti porgo questi fiore" - gorgeous tones. The sweet spot. I always wait for that moment. WONDERFUL voice.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> Tito Gobbi (the post can be closed now)  I'm just kidding.
> 
> Tito Gobbi is my Scarpia model. So every Scarpia i see i compare to him. Ruggero Raimondi (i think there one with him conducted by Karajan) or Leo Nucci are other great Scarpias. I do know care much for Terfel's Scarpia. Sure i has the physique du role but it's the voice tha does not get to me.


Well, once I start loving Tosca more I'll have to get Gobbi, of course - I think most people agree he's the best Scarpia on CD - but like I said this was the first Tosca I had really deeply enjoyed. So I've got a little ways to go yet!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Hampson is a rather light Scarpia but again he is intelligent and rather than bark his way through it he caresses every word and makes a chilling effect.
> 
> Scarpia's i don't like....Terfel. Not a role for him -he should stick to Leporello/Don Giovanni and Wagner


You know, I saw Terfel as Scarpia and was pretty impressed. After his Tales of Hoffmann I'd been kind of downrating Terfel in my mind, but I thought he did an awfully good job in the one Tosca I saw with him in it. Now what you mention, about Hampson being a "light" Scarpia confuses me. Surely Giorgio Germont is not a role for "light" baritones - it requires a LOT of real bellowing - and I've heard Hampson at the Met, I know he can fill up that very large - and not the best acoustics - hall. So why did he seem so underpowered in this role? I don't get it.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

There's a new Tosca being released in October with Kaufmann, Gheorghiu & Terfel so I'll be interested to hear what people think of it.

I saw it live & was underwhelmed by Terfel, but others raved about him.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Huh - I just watched it and I would NEVER have said it was "Regie". Everything looked pretty straightforward to me. I thought Regie was where the director turns Tosca into a dancing clown or something, and all the other cast members' emotional centers of gravity change as a result, so people that go expecting Tosca don't recognize it ... ?
> 
> Now, it wasn't a high production value set. The church was a bunch of chairs set up to face one direction, the palazzo was a big empty room with a desk and a few stage lights, the prison was just kind of the hint of a prison.


Regietheater just means that certain things about the opera have been changed in order to give the plot a new meaning, often in a different setting. In this Tosca, the action is set in and around a theatre, and not a church as in the original. That way the director (or regisseur if you will) can say something about other matters than those treated in the opera itself. It's been a while since I saw it, but from what I recall, it was a lot about how entertainment has become the new religion in society or something. I should really watch this again, I feel.

But Regietheater doesn't necessarily mean that there will be giant pink flamingos and everyone will be wearing masks. It just means that the director's vision of the piece differs from the original, thus Regietheater (director's theatre).


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

sospiro said:


> There's a new Tosca being released in October with Kaufmann, Gheorghiu & Terfel so I'll be interested to hear what people think of it.
> 
> I saw it live & was underwhelmed by Terfel, but others raved about him.


Oh boy, another Kaufmann recording in my future!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Regietheater just means that certain things about the opera have been changed in order to give the plot a new meaning, often in a different setting. In this Tosca, the action is set in and around a theatre, and not a church as in the original. That way the director (or regisseur if you will) can say something about other matters than those treated in the opera itself. It's been a while since I saw it, but from what I recall, it was a lot about how entertainment has become the new religion in society or something. I should really watch this again, I feel.
> 
> But Regietheater doesn't necessarily mean that there will be giant pink flamingos and everyone will be wearing masks. It just means that the director's vision of the piece differs from the original, thus Regietheater (director's theatre).


Oh I see. Well, I'll have to watch it again now - it's a LITTLE embarrassing that I could have missed something like that! Maybe there will be Bonus Selections that include the director's thoughts on what he was trying to do ...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Oh I see. Well, I'll have to watch it again now - it's a LITTLE embarrassing that I could have missed something like that! Maybe there will be Bonus Selections that include the director's thoughts on what he was trying to do ...


No I love it greg, egregious Regie re-imagining, director rubbing his hands with glee at all the outrage from dinosaur critics and stuffy old opera goers..... and nobody notices.....:lol:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> No I love it greg, egregious Regie re-imagining, director rubbing his hands with glee at all the outrage from dinosaur critics and stuffy old opera goers..... and nobody notices.....:lol:


lol ... well .. of the three people who responded, one did not notice


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> lol ... well .. of the three people who responded, one did not notice


I might not have if I hadn't read about it first.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes, on the Les Contes d'Hoffmann DVD with Neil Shicoff....Terfel is terrible!!!!


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Fischer-Diskau is on record as Scarpia with Corelli and Nilsson. I listed to a bit the other day, i have it on cd but it is not my favourite by a long stretch. He is a germanic Scarpia lets put it like that. Maybe i need to have another listen....


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Fischer-Diskau is on record as Scarpia with Corelli and Nilsson. I listed to a bit the other day, i have it on cd but it is not my favourite by a long stretch. He is a germanic Scarpia lets put it like that. Maybe i need to have another listen....


Yes, but Fischer-Diskau is my Rigoletto model, for example. The with his great versality of the voice, i've assumed that he would perfectly adapt his voice to the character. Scarpia together with Iago are, perhaps, two of the darkest voices in the standard repertoire but i think Fischer-Diskau is up to the challenge.

Speaking of Iago, i've just remember Peter Glossop in Karajan's Otello film. Has he ever been Scarpia?


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## Morgante (Jul 26, 2012)

Tito Gobbi in the recording with De Sabata and Callas.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Yes, on the Les Contes d'Hoffmann DVD with Neil Shicoff....Terfel is terrible!!!!


He just seemed kind of _weak_ didn't he?


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I loved Tito Gobbi in his Scarpia, of course with Maria Callas as Tosca. As for DVD, I found Raimondi, very intersting. His disguised hatred is wonderfully expressed in his singing and acting. I also think, older recordings lose part of the sound quality of the original voice. Even in the days there is a great difference between live and recorded music.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Samuel Ramey's strength and darkness convinces me. 1990 DG rec. with Sinopoli, or the Avery Fisher Tucker Gala 2000.

http://www.instantencore.com/video/details.aspx?ItemId=155128


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Vaneyes said:


> Samuel Ramey's strength and darkness convinces me.


Good thought - have to check that one out. Ramey can do dark.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Since you said "full-length video" I would say Sherrill Milnes from a '76(?) movie. Sadly, there is only an Act II with Gobbi (although there's also a Te Deum video with him on YT).


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

sospiro said:


> There's a new Tosca being released in October with Kaufmann, Gheorghiu & Terfel so I'll be interested to hear what people think of it.
> 
> I saw it live & was underwhelmed by Terfel, but others raved about him.


Terfel's voice is not my favorite, but I enjoyed his portrayal on this video. He acts the heck out of Scarpia imo. I think this production is a good one with a stellar cast...I think Gobbi remains the reference Scarpia for most


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MAuer said:


> Who's the best Scarpia ever, in a full-length video that's commercially available?
> 
> My choice is Thomas Hampson in the video from the Zürich Opera.
> 
> ...


This post and subsequent posts caused me to have to purchase this DVD. The listing says DVD + CD so I wonder if this comes with the video and a separate sound track?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Gobbi -- hands down!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Giuseppe Taddei and Terfel for me.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Gobbi remIns the Scarpia to beat, at least on audio. Mind you, Teddai for Karajan runs him close


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Matteo Manuguerra.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Definitely Gobbi for me. Not only on the famous De Sabata recording, but also in the videos of Act II with Callas. He once said his performances only came out 100% when he played opposite Callas, because of the way they reacted to each other.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

What do those of you who have heard it think of Ramey's Scarpia? Is he the only bass to have sung the role??


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> What do those of you who have heard it think of Ramey's Scarpia? Is he the only bass to have sung the role??


I think he's about 66, so that's hardly surprising.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I think he's about 66, so that's hardly surprising.


Are you talking about his age now? He's 76!


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> What do those of you who have heard it think of Ramey's Scarpia? Is he the only bass to have sung the role??


James Morris and Ruggero Raimondi both sang the role, too.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> What do those of you who have heard it think of Ramey's Scarpia? Is he the only bass to have sung the role??


If only Freni had been 10 years younger, but overall good recording and good solid voices.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> James Morris and Ruggero Raimondi both sang the role, too.


Right, but they're both bass baritones like Terfel, Grimsley, Struckmann & a lot of the best interpreters today. Ramey though is a real bass with an absurdly large range!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

MAuer said:


> Who's the best Scarpia ever, in a full-length video that's commercially available?
> 
> My choice is Thomas Hampson in the video from the Zürich Opera.
> 
> ...


'Just purchased this. Thanks for the recommendation. I think Thomas Hampson is an excellent singer and actor; and, I'm especially glad to hear he plays Scarpia as "smooth and suave". Hampson does "smooth and suave" so well! (I don't know if he has the right voice for the part, but I would LOVE to see and hear Rene Pape perform Scarpia.)


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JosefinaHW said:


> 'Just purchased this. Thanks for the recommendation. I think Thomas Hampson is an excellent singer and actor; and, I'm especially glad to hear he plays Scarpia as "smooth and suave". Hampson does "smooth and suave" so well! (I don't know if he has the right voice for the part, but I would LOVE to see and hear Rene Pape perform Scarpia.)


Pape can almost do no wrong as a singer, but Scarpia would definitely be too high for him. There's a particular section in the role that makes bass baritones (including me) shake in their britches lol...you're a fan of Bryn Terfel right Josefina? Pick up the ROH Tosca with he, Kaufmann, & Gheorghiu


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> Pape can almost do no wrong as a singer, but Scarpia would definitely be too high for him. There's a particular section in the role that makes bass baritones (including me) shake in their britches lol...you're a fan of Bryn Terfel right Josefina? Pick up the ROH Tosca with he, Kaufmann, & Gheorghiu


What a shame, Bonetan, I think Pape would be amazing. Yes, I am a fan of Bryn Terfel, but that doesn't mean I like all his performances. I do not like his performances of Scarpia; they aren't subtle enough. Somewhere above someone describes Hampson as "caressing" the words"--I can't imagine Terfel being able to do that. Also, Terfel has an enormous stage presence and I think that is amazing when he sings alone or in certain roles, yes, such as our friend Sachsey. Scarpia certainly should have presence, but not overwhelmingly so, else you lose some of that subtlety. (IMO, of course.)

(P.S. Very glad to chat with you again, Bonetan.)


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

It also just came into my mind that Luca Pisaroni after he has aged more and filled out a bit, would perform a fabulous Scarpia. Again, don't know the full range of his voice, though.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JosefinaHW said:


> What a shame, Bonetan, I think Pape would be amazing. Yes, I am a fan of Bryn Terfel, but that doesn't mean I like all his performances. I do not like his performances of Scarpia; they aren't subtle enough. Somewhere above someone describes Hampson as "caressing" the words"--I can't imagine Terfel being able to do that. Also, Terfel has an enormous stage presence and I think that is amazing when he sings alone or in certain roles, yes, such as our friend Sachsey. Scarpia certainly should have presence, but not overwhelmingly so, else you lose some of that subtlety. (IMO, of course.)
> 
> (P.S. Very glad to chat with you again, Bonetan.)


You're right Terfel isn't exactlyl subtle lol. The problem with Hampson, & this would not be an issue on video, is his voice is way undersized for Scarpia. We need a happy medium! I'm planning to see Michael Volle as Scarpia in May & from what I've heard he's excellent in everything he does. I'll report back!


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> You're right Terfel isn't exactlyl subtle lol. The problem with Hampson, & this would not be an issue on video, is his voice is way undersized for Scarpia. We need a happy medium! I'm planning to see Michael Volle as Scarpia in May & from what I've heard he's excellent in everything he does. I'll report back!


Rene Pape would perform the role so well I think it would be MARVELOUS for some extremely generous person to hire an orchestra and supporting cast that are willing to sing and play with the whole thing transposed down for Pape. 

I've only seen him in two performances and an interview but Michael Volle isn't a subtle man either. Will be interesting to see a recording of his performance.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

JosefinaHW said:


> Rene Pape would perform the role so well I think it would be MARVELOUS for some extremely generous person to hire an orchestra and supporting cast that are willing to sing and play with the whole thing transposed down for Pape.
> 
> I've only seen him in two performances and an interview but Michael Volle isn't a subtle man either. Will be interesting to see a recording of his performance.


Haha Tosca would become a mezzo!

Then the search continues! When I reach the world stage I'll give you a subtle Scarpia


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> Haha Tosca would become a mezzo!
> 
> Then the search continues! When I reach the world stage I'll give you a subtle Scarpia


...and a drop-dead attractive and loveable Hans Sachs!!! :clap:

P.S. A MEZZO Tosca! Be still my beating heart. Magdalena Kozena. By the way, she won't be too old at that point, the woman grows more amazing every day.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Right, but they're both bass baritones like Terfel, Grimsley, Struckmann & a lot of the best interpreters today. Ramey though is a real bass with an absurdly large range!


It's a reasonable argument about Morris, but I think that his range is actually similar to Ramey's, but Morris has a less dark sound. And if you look at his career outside of Wagner, it's virtually all bass roles - Philip, Fiesco, Boris. He's made occasional forays into baritone territory - Amonasro and Iago, as well as Scarpia, but I don't like the sound that he makes in those baritone roles (and FWIW, I like a real baritone, like Manuguerra, as Scarpia).

As for Raimondi, I can't possibly classify him as anything other than a bass. His repertoire, except for Scarpia, includes nothing but bass roles.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> It's a reasonable argument about Morris, but I think that his range is actually similar to Ramey's, but Morris has a less dark sound. And if you look at his career outside of Wagner, it's virtually all bass roles - Philip, Fiesco, Boris. He's made occasional forays into baritone territory - Amonasro and Iago, as well as Scarpia, but I don't like the sound that he makes in those baritone roles (and FWIW, I like a real baritone, like Manuguerra, as Scarpia).
> 
> As for Raimondi, I can't possibly classify him as anything other than a bass. His repertoire, except for Scarpia, includes nothing but bass roles.


For comparisons sake check out Ramey's booming low E at 3:35 & compare it to Morris' low F at 9:30. I think that right there shows the difference between a bass & a bass baritone. Morris has nothing below a low G. Ramey has power down there. I never quite understood why they let Morris sing bass roles






Check out Raimondi here in the same duet (low F at 2:15). He's no real bass either. Philip in particular is often taken by bass baritones because you need to have a darker Inquisitor, but I like it when they're both true basses.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> I never quite understood why they let Morris sing bass roles


Three reasons:

1) He isn't a baritone.

2) On stage, he's a tall and imposing figure, which works rather well for certain bass roles. Ramey, by contrast, looks rather slight n stage. When I saw him sing Boris at the Met, he looked like a child sitting on the Czar's throne. I couldn't help thinking of Lily Tomlin as Edith Ann on Saturday Night Live, which isn't really what one should be thinking about when the Czar is singing.

3) Morris' voice is extremely large. I heard him at the Met a few times, and he filled the hall with sound, without any effort whatsoever. Ramey's voice, by comparison, is actually rather modest in size when heard live.

For me, voice type is more about vocal color, and less about extremes of range. Most bass roles actually do not require much below G; there are obvious exceptions, like Osmin and Baron Ochs' (optional) low C at the end of Act 1 and low E at the end of Act 2. And if you listen past Raimondi's contribution to the above, plenty of other singers, including Ghiaurov and Plishka, produce little more than a growl on that F.

BTW, I'd be cautious about judging voices based on recordings, particularly via YouTube. Some voices don't record well (and Morris' is certainly one of them), and some do.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Three reasons:
> 
> 1) He isn't a baritone.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you've said here, BUT I don't think singing bass roles makes you a bass. I'm of the belief that if you can't sing all the notes, you shouldn't sing the role, but as you stated Morris has other qualities that make him passable. Listen to his Fiesco from the Met (with Domingo as Boccanegra) & again you'll find his low notes inaudible. If you can't sing comfortably at the very bottom of the staff & below you can't possibly be a bass regardless of the color & size IMO

BTW Morris & Raimondi consider themselves bass baritones. Ramey considers himself a bass.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

@wkasimer thank you once again for exposing me to another fine singer in Manuguerra. Quite interesting that he didn't begin his vocal training until he was 35, & that was as a tenor! I enjoyed his Te Deum on Youtube 

Who would be your Scarpia of choice today?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tito Gobbi owned this great role!


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Of course, Gobbi is the reference. Taddei in Karajan is good too.

I recently discovered this amazing historical baritone, Apollo Granforte. He is an important baritone of the early 20th century, whose name was often mentioned on par with Titta Ruffo.

This level of singing is unbelievable:






There is a complete recording of Tosca made in 1929. Sabajno conducting is fabulous (I have heard experts prefer him to Toscanini), Carmen Melis is one of the leading verismo sopranoes of the day, and the lesser known Piero Pauli more than adequate for Cavaradossi. In the complete recording, one can tell that Granforte is also a singing actor.






Bonus: another favorite of mine from Granforte, the romance from Tannhauser


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Bonetan said:


> Pape can almost do no wrong as a singer, but Scarpia would definitely be too high for him. There's a particular section in the role that makes bass baritones (including me) shake in their britches lol...you're a fan of Bryn Terfel right Josefina? Pick up the ROH Tosca with he, Kaufmann, & Gheorghiu


Bonetan to me the most difficult section in terms of high notes is the "Se la giurata fede debbo tradir" and what follows to "sí, t'avró" ... is that the portion you mean?

Kind regards,

George


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Barelytenor said:


> Bonetan to me the most difficult section in terms of high notes is the "Se la giurata fede debbo tradir" and what follows to "sí, t'avró" ... is that the portion you mean?
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> George


Exactly! The 2nd 'Mia' in particular is dreaded.


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