# Bruckner and other composers



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Anton Bruckner is probably one of the most misunderstood composers of his era and of all time. Nevertheless, he has become a major fan favorite in recent decades. While this is somewhat surprising to me on account of the density and seeming inaccessibility of his music, I am sure it is well-deserved, despite my lack of intimate familiarity with his music.

Nevertheless, despite this fan favorite status, it seems he is sometimes not taken very seriously by his fellow composers. Gustav Mahler saw him as something of a father figure and a mentor in his early days of composing, and took musical influence from him. But even he famously described the older composer as "half God, half simpleton". Wagner seemingly saw him as something of a little sidekick/mascot at best and a nuisance at worst. Leonard Bernstein held a strong distaste or dislike for his music and seldom conducted his works. 

Beyond that, I am not aware of too many other opinions on Bruckner from other composers. Can anyone here indulge me with examples of quotes by composers who either admire and take influence from, or dislike and disparage him? It turns out I am fairly clueless about his historical impact, and I would like to learn more.

As a bonus question, what are some of Bruckner's own opinions of other composers? I know he worshipped Wagner, and legend has it he once bowed before the older composer's feet saying "I'm not worthy", or something to that effect. And clearly, he took a ton of influence from Beethoven. Beyond that I know nothing of his opinions of and relationships with his contemporaries.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I think that quotes from other composers other than that one from Mahler will be hard to come by. Mahler may have been the only other composer of note that Bruckner had a close relationship with. (He was a pretty strange dude.) Mahler was given the original (1st 3 movements) score of the 3rd Symphony and I’m thankful he did because Mahler’s widow held onto it and escaped from Nazi Germany with it. Otherwise it might not have survived and all we would be hearing are the many revisions which IMO are inferior.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Brahms didn't like his music, he thought it was structurally suspect and largely about building up to all these showy and loud brassy climaxes in a rather superficial way. I think since Bruckner influenced Mahler and Mahler can be viewed in some ways as a transitional figure between the late Romantic and Modern era, there is some important influence there, beyond that I'm not aware of any other ways he may have been influential.


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> Nevertheless, despite this fan favorite status, it seems he is sometimes not taken very seriously by his fellow composers. Gustav Mahler saw him as something of a father figure and a mentor in his early days of composing, and took musical influence from him. But even he famously described the older composer as "half God, half simpleton". Wagner seemingly saw him as something of a little sidekick/mascot at best and a nuisance at worst.


A friend refers to Bruckner as the Rain Man of great composers.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> he famously described the older composer as "half God, half simpleton".


too 'famously' to be true. Bruckner was smart, for it was him to manage to preserve dignity to his music amid those Romanticist practices of some controversial message to be obligatory smuggled into the score. Bruckner music is purer than others' and in most part it portrays as follows: conspiracy - invasion - massacre - triumph.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe Bruckner is worth hearing because I doubt if he ever wrote a false note in his life. That counts for something. The description of his music as being violent I believe is a total distortion. His music was incredibly powerful but not violent. He was not a violent man in his personal life nor in his music. He was a sincerely religious man and the influence of this can be heard in every note of his music. He sincerely aspired to God and heaven:

“Someday I will have to give an account of myself. How would the Father in Heaven judge me if I followed others and not Him?”

My appreciation of Bruckner started with Georg Tintner’s performance of the 9th.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

tdc said:


> Brahms didn't like his music, he thought it was structurally suspect and largely about building up to all these showy and loud brassy climaxes in a rather superficial way. I think since Bruckner influenced Mahler and Mahler can be viewed in some ways as a transitional figure between the late Romantic and Modern era, there is some important influence there, beyond that I'm not aware of any other ways he may have been influential.


In his biography of Brahms, Swafford spends five pages describing Brahms' contempt for Bruckner. At one point, Brahms described Bruckner's works as symphonic boa-constrictors.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

On another music forum, someone told an anecdote about Brams later in life. When a Bruckner piece was premiered, a stagehand found Brahms crouched backstage, and as the stagehand approached him, Brahms, looked at him and put a finger to his lips as if to say, "Don't tell anyone." Has anyone else heard this story?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Is it true that Bruckner was one of Hitler's favorite composers and one of the few historical composers whose music was approved of in the Third Reich? I guess it makes sense... I find it a little surprising though. This would contribute, I suppose, to our friend Zhdanov's violence theory.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Times were different. The other composers mentioned by the OP never had the chance to listen to Bruckner the way we do.
No modern communication, no recorded music... How often did they actually get the chance to hear his music?
I'm guessing they had to do with some sheet music, perhaps playing through it on a piano and a rare concert here and there. 

It doesn't matter now. Bruckner doesn't have to bow to Brahms, Wagner or Mahler, or any other romantic composer. He can easily stand beside them, easily.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

The Brahms camp, mainly through critic Eduard Hanslick, was at war with Bruckner. An example:

https://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com...mphony-no-8-reviewed-by-eduard-hanslick-1892/

Mahler, on the other hand, scheduled his symphonies regularly when conducting the New York Philharmonic.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Manxfeeder said:


> On another music forum, someone told an anecdote about Brams later in life. When a Bruckner piece was premiered, a stagehand found Brahms crouched backstage, and as the stagehand approached him, Brahms, looked at him and put a finger to his lips as if to say, "Don't tell anyone." Has anyone else heard this story?


No. Perhaps Brahms was intent on listening and was signaling the stagehand to remain quiet or not interrupt him.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

flamencosketches said:


> Is it true that Bruckner was one of Hitler's favorite composers and one of the few historical composers whose music was approved of in the Third Reich? I guess it makes sense... I find it a little surprising though. This would contribute, I suppose, to our friend Zhdanov's violence theory.


Not surprising at all - Bruckner was, and still is, very popular in the German speaking world. Bruckner was seen as being the end of the line of Austrian masters: Mozart - Beethoven - Schubert - Brahms - Bruckner. There are fortunately many historical recordings of Bruckner from that era (Knappertsbusch, Furtwangler, Kabasta, Schuricht for example) to give us an idea of what high esteem the composer was held. His music isn't the fun, thrill-ride that Mahler provides; it requires contemplation and careful listening, which explains in large part why it's never been that popular in the US and elsewhere, where instant gratification and cheap thrills are so important.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Is it true that Bruckner was one of Hitler's favorite composers and one of the few historical composers whose music was approved of in the Third Reich? I guess it makes sense... I find it a little surprising though. This would contribute, I suppose, to our friend Zhdanov's violence theory.


I believe that's a complete distortion... and Bruckner never voted on Hitler's appropriation of his music for his own nefarious purposes related to war or violence or culturally. There's a power in Bruckner's music that is not related to war and violence, but is _spiritual_ in its nature . As a man he was not about war and violence; he was about understanding the power of God. But if one didn't understand or appreciate that, the power could be misunderstood as violence and war in an atheist sense that has nothing to do with Bruckner's religious inclinations. An example of this awesome power can be heard in his Ninth:


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> I believe that's a total distortion. There's a power in Bruckner's music that is not about war and violence. As a man he was not about war and violence; he was about understanding the power of God. But if one didn't understand or appreciate that, the power could be misunderstood as violence and war in an atheist sense that has nothing to do with Bruckner's religious aspirations.


From what I understand about his personality and life, I'm on your side of the equation too. I know he was obsessed with death, but he seemed a timid and non-confrontational guy, and fairly peaceful, or presumably so considering his Catholic conviction. Certainly I didn't hear violence in the 4th symphony, the first and only of his works I've heard in full (yesterday for the first time - I don't claim major familiarity with his music at all).


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

flamencosketches said:


> From what I understand about his personality and life, I'm on your side of the equation too. I know he was obsessed with death, but he seemed a timid and non-confrontational guy, and fairly peaceful, or presumably so considering his Catholic conviction. Certainly I didn't hear violence in the 4th symphony, the first and only of his works I've heard in full (yesterday for the first time - I don't claim major familiarity with his music at all).


Start with the earlier symphonies, particularly #2 and #3 and particularly the Adagios because that's where Bruckner lives. Btw, he probably wanted the support of Wagner more than any other composer and asked him which symphony #2 or #3 he could dedicate to him (Wagner). As the story goes, they went out drinking and Wagner decided on the #3, but the next day Bruckner couldn't remember which symphony Wagner had picked. Bruckner had to write him whereupon Wagner reminded him that he was the third.

The opening to the #2 is exquisite:






This is the original version of the 3rd Adagio (Tintner cond.) which was revised several times, but IMO, it is the best. Listen to the salute to Wagner at 16:10 which was removed in the later revisions. There are relatively few recordings of the original version.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> From what I understand about his personality and life, I'm on your side of the equation too. I know he was obsessed with death, but he seemed a timid and non-confrontational guy, and fairly peaceful, or presumably so considering his Catholic conviction. Certainly I didn't hear violence in the 4th symphony, the first and only of his works I've heard in full (yesterday for the first time - I don't claim major familiarity with his music at all).


I agree with you. I also don't hear violence in his music. His works tend to be heavier and the music darker, but this makes Bruckner Bruckner and that's also the reason why I find him so enjoyable. His Christian convictions were very important for him (they also explain why he never married - quite an interesting story actually)).


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