# Eclipsed by Beethoven?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Suggested by anther thread: It was a cruel thing to be a composer in the time of Beethoven. For the most part, you were doomed to be forgotten.

Perhaps some of this is unfair. Was there music written from, say, 1800 to 1825 (other than Schubert) that we should remember better than we do? That should be heard more often? Please make your suggestions in this thread, maybe say something, and post a YouTube link if you feel like it.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Good suggestion but not my area


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Hummel Piano Concerto No. 3 in b minor (1819). This is one of my favorite Classical/Romantic concertos.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> Hummel Piano Concerto No. 3 in b minor (1819). This is one of my favorite Classical/Romantic concertos.


I was going to mention Hummel myself. I have yet to hear anything by him that isn't a delight to the ear, and I think he was indeed one of those unlucky ones that happened to be an almost exact contemporary of Beethoven.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Before we get on to less famous names, let's remember Carl Maria von Weber, who isn't forgotten but who, maybe, should get more recognition as the master composer he was. His music is endlessly fresh, inventive and engaging in itself, and he initiated the "volkisch" strain of the German Romantic movement that culminated in Wagner, whose devotion to Weber was unqualified. Wagner, one of Weber's successors as head of the Dresden Opera, arranged to have Weber's remains brought back to the city and buried in a grave of honor. Wagner gave the eulogy, saying that he had "learned to love music by way of my admiration for Weber's genius". He also composed a memorial work on themes from Weber's operas.

I'm baffled by the fact that his most famous opera, _Der Freischutz,_ has been a repertory staple in German-speaking countries since it was composed, but remains rather rarely performed elsewhere. Maybe the spooky magic of the _Schwarzwald _just doesn't translate well into Italian or French. The even more rarely performed _Euryanthe,_ the symphonies, piano sonatas, and the marvelous chamber works are all worth discovering and returning to. Weber died at 40, far too soon. I wish he had lived to interact with Wagner and write more operas.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Hummel Piano Concerto No. 3 in b minor (1819). This is one of my favorite Classical/Romantic concertos.


I love Hummel's piano concertos. Today on the radio he was called a "one-hit wonder" for his trumpet concerto. I thought, "No, no, no!" But..there you are. 

Might mention his excellent piano trios as well.


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## Heliogabo (Dec 29, 2014)

Outside germanic culture, Méhul is my choice. He composed 4 symphonies between 1808 and 1810. 
He was after Beethoven and before Berlioz, a difficult position as can be...






(unfortunately sound is not that good here)

This album, which includes the symphonies and some overtures, was quite a revelation to me. Love it.


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Luigi Cherubini, the composer that Beethoven himself called the greatest of his contemporaries, is one that I think has been "eclipsed," as you say. His set of 6 string quartets is wonderful, and I recall liking some of his overtures.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Heliogabo said:


> Outside germanic culture, Méhul is my choice. He composed 4 symphonies between 1808 and 1810.


The symphonies of Etienne Mehul, the "French Beethoven", are seldom heard here (I believe there is only one recording of the set). But one thing is often played on the radio: His unusual overture to _Young Henry's Hunt _from 1797.






See this brief write-up on Mehul and this overture: https://muswrite.blogspot.com/2013/10/mehul-le-jeune-henri-overture.html


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Jan Václav Voříšek (1791-1825) deserves to be better known. And I'm not just saying that because of the amazing diacritical marks in his name!  His music really is very good. Here's his Piano Sonata Op. 20:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bettina said:


> Jan Václav Voříšek (1791-1825) deserves to be better known


Voříšek's Symphony in D is reasonably well-known. I have it coupled with Arriaga's symphony in the same key. From an Amazon review: "Stylistically his music is also greatly influenced by Mozart, but there are plenty of points of connection to Beethoven as well. The first movement of his Symphony, in particular, is much more robust and strident than one would associate with Mozart, and the third movement scherzo is not only reminiscent of Beethoven in style, but worthy of Beethoven in quality as well. Indeed, of the two rewarding and exciting symphonies on the disc [the other being Arriaga's], the Vorisek is probably the one that is overall more striking and memorable."

Looks like it's time to pull it out and listen again!










BTW Bettina's Voříšek sonata is brilliant! Love the scherzo particularly.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I presented a thread on Joseph Wolfl (1773-1812) some time ago. His output was limited, but was quality music nonetheless. In this Adagio from his C-minor op.25 Sonata, the influence of Beethoven is startling. If this movement was presented as from a lost early sonata of Beethoven's, I wouldn't blink an eye. Note particularly the part just after 3:50 for a cookie-cutter Beethoven variation. (Wolfl and Beethoven were known as competitors though Wolfl highly admired his 3 year elder. They had a famous piano competition in 1799.)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'll throw in a good word here for Juan Crisostomo Arriaga, a young Basque musical genius who was taken to the Paris Conservatoire to study under Fetis and Cherubini and who quickly became Fetis's teaching assistant. He died of unclear causes at the age of nineteen.

He left several interesting works, but most of all three string quartets of the highest quality written at sixteen, about 1822. They are a bit out of time, clearly inspired by Beethoven's Op. 18 quartets of 20 years earlier and showing little technical advance beyond those. But music is music, and his quartets are nevertheless music of the best type.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> I presented a thread on Joseph Wolfl (1773-1812) some time ago. His output was limited, but was quality music nonetheless... (Wolfl and Beethoven were known as competitors though Wolfl highly admired his 3 year elder. They had a famous piano competition in 1799.)


The 1799 piano duel was reviewed, and Beethoven was by no means the clear winner except in improvisation. "Wölffl has at his disposal a thorough musical learnedness and true dignity in composition. He performs movements that appear nearly impossible to execute with a lightness, precision, and distinctness that is truly amazing. Of course, the large structure of his hands is an advantage in this. His performance is purposeful everywhere, pleasing and caressing in the adagios and equally far from the extremes of sparseness and overcrowding-this is why one can not only admire him but also enjoy him. That Wölffl's unassuming and pleasing behavior gains over Beethoven with his sometimes haughty manner is very natural..."


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Ries deserves mentioning for sure.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I second Mehul. Love the 2nd symphony.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

What about the 3rd greatest English composer after Elgar and Handel, in Clementi? He did more for the piano then people give him credit for. And there is also Irish composer John Field along with Dussek.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2017)

KenOC said:


> Suggested by anther thread: It was a cruel thing to be a composer in the time of Beethoven. For the most part, you were doomed to be forgotten.
> 
> Perhaps some of this is unfair. Was there music written from, say, 1800 to 1825 (other than Schubert) that we should remember better than we do? That should be heard more often? Please make your suggestions in this thread, maybe say something, and post a YouTube link if you feel like it.


You may remember that Schubert was almost completely overwhelmed by Beethoven and that a huge number of his works were never published until long after his death. Until WW2 most of his piano sonatas had never been performed. So, I nominate Schubert for being neglected during his day. Also, Carl Maria von Weber fits into the category of reasonably neglected composers of that time. I'm sure there were others, but Schubert was the only one on Beethoven's level.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> You may remember that Schubert was almost completely overwhelmed by Beethoven and that a huge number of his works were never published until long after his death. Until WW2 most of his piano sonatas had never been performed. So, I nominate Schubert for being neglected during his day. Also, Carl Maria von Weber fits into the category of reasonably neglected composers of that time. I'm sure there were others, but Schubert was the only one on Beethoven's level.


Given the quality of his sonatas, who knows what he would have composed if given another 15 years or so. Maybe there would have been a piano concerto or two and symphonies even greater than the Unfinished (which would have been finished). Schubert's music, at its best, was on a par with some of Beethoven's, but didn't remind of Beethoven. Quite a feat.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

The mind does boggle to imagine what may have been composed had Schubert lived to say at least 50. At least then we would probably have had a photograph of him. But he did live longer in another parallel universe like Hugh Everett III predicted. Could he have written music better then Beethoven's 9th or 32nd or the last 5 quartets? Is that physically and mentally possible? So in this reality these pieces are still waiting to be written or maybe Brahms pinched a few of what would have been Schubert's ideas.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

The respective output and reputations of Mehul and Hummel may have been eclipsed by Beethoven over time but both were no less successful than Beethoven in their day - their careers certainly seemed to be on more solid foundations anyway. 

Re Weber - I associate early Romanticism with him as much as I do with Beethoven yet I keep forgetting that he actually pre-deceased Beethoven despite being fifteen years younger.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

There is also George Onslow who wrote competent piano trios, string quartets and quintets in some abundance, though I'd say few really hold a candle to Beethoven's. What I've heard has been a worthwhile listen.

I'll second the nomination for Jan Ladislav Dussek too, for some interesting piano sonatas.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

The Hummel Piano Trios, which I would take over any of those by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

pjang23 said:


> The Hummel Piano Trios, which I would take over any of those by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.


I really like those trios, but I'm not sure I'd thrown Beethoven's away!

BTW Onslow was no fan of late Beethoven: "The last quartets of Beethoven are mistakes, absurdities, the reveries of a sick genius....I would burn everything I have composed if I someday wrote anything resembling such chaos."


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Friedrich Kuhlau wrote some pretty good stuff.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

pjang23 said:


> The Hummel Piano Trios, which I would take over any of those by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.
> 
> View attachment 98102


I don't know about whose piano trios are superior, but I definitely listen to Hummel's more than those from the other three composers.

I forgot to mention that I love the MDG set from the Trio Parnassus. They give Hummel with some blood and guts, qualities usually lacking from other interpreters.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2017)

DaveM said:


> Given the quality of his sonatas, who knows what he would have composed if given another 15 years or so. Maybe there would have been a piano concerto or two and symphonies even greater than the Unfinished (which would have been finished). Schubert's music, at its best, was on a par with some of Beethoven's, but didn't remind of Beethoven. Quite a feat.


Hi there! I've recently formed the view that if Schubert hadn't died at 31 he would attained the stature of Beethoven, though that composer's piano sonatas virtually from the first half dozen (composed when under 30) were already of a different order of magnitude.

In 2011 I stood in front of that house in Kettenbrückengasse in Vienna where Schubert breathed his last. The church for his funeral was about 1km away and my bus used to go past it regularly!! And, of course, Schubert was laid next to Beethoven to rest; both of them were 'moved' to Zentralfriedhof, Wien, at the end of the 19th century.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Before we get on to less famous names, let's remember Carl Maria von Weber, who isn't forgotten but who, maybe, should get more recognition as the master composer he was. His music is endlessly fresh, inventive and engaging in itself, and he initiated the "volkisch" strain of the German Romantic movement that culminated in Wagner, whose devotion to Weber was unqualified. Wagner, one of Weber's successors as head of the Dresden Opera, arranged to have Weber's remains brought back to the city and buried in a grave of honor. Wagner gave the eulogy, saying that he had "learned to love music by way of my admiration for Weber's genius". He also composed a memorial work on themes from Weber's operas.
> 
> I'm baffled by the fact that his most famous opera, _Der Freischutz,_ has been a repertory staple in German-speaking countries since it was composed, but remains rather rarely performed elsewhere. Maybe the spooky magic of the _Schwarzwald _just doesn't translate well into Italian or French. The even more rarely performed _Euryanthe,_ the symphonies, piano sonatas, and the marvelous chamber works are all worth discovering and returning to. Weber died at 40, far too soon. I wish he had lived to interact with Wagner and write more operas.


Weber is a good pick. Liszt was also a huge admirer of Weber's music.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Reicha was a friend of Beethoven who wrote some pretty adventurous music. And if we go back in time 1 generation, there are Vanhal and Myslivicek.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I first heard Reicha many years ago on an MHS LP, his wind quintets. Very enjoyable. And they still are.

Danzi is another who wrote the same kind of stuff, but I prefer Reicha.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

beetzart said:


> Could he have written music better then Beethoven's 9th or 32nd or the last 5 quartets? Is that physically and mentally possible?


I'll take the string quintet, the unfinished symphony and Die Winterreise over anything Beethoven composed.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2017)

This piano sonata was a turning point for the comparatively young Beethoven (not yet 30), in particular the *Largo e Mesto* (here at 6:35). It is the second movement of the stunning No. 7, Op. 10 No. 3 and here played by Argerich. I always liked the Sonata No. 4 with its multi movements and ingenuity, but this one is further along the food chain of greatness: it anticipates the last, very great sonatas and inhabits some of that sound world (particularly from 10:00). It has that sense of a journey and inevitability, as well as transcendent quality, Beethoven mastered relatively quickly after he started composing in the genre. Note his use of the simplest repeated notes and melodic material in this Largo, sans emotionalism and virtuosity for its own sake. We can hear why it was so difficult for any competitors in the field. Mozart had been dead 6 or 7 years when this sonata was composed and this is a world away from Mozart:






This is just one of dozens of reasons why this composer, *along with Bach*, is the very greatest in music IMO. Incredible as it may seem, I love both composers more with each passing day (and I've been at this for over 50 years).


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

From Gramophone:

>>>Chandos, in association with RTS and Palazetto Bru Zane, has launched a new series exploring the keyboard music of Antoine Reicha, born the same year as Beethoven and a close friend of the German composer. It's played by pianist Ivan Ilić<<<

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/classi.../new-podcast-ivan-ili%C4%87-on-antoine-reicha


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ...It has that sense of a journey and inevitability...


As Beethoven told Schindler: "There's not much to writing great music. I just make sure that each note is the only one that can properly follow the note that came before. And if it's not, I beat it until it is!"


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> This piano sonata was a turning point for the comparatively young Beethoven (not yet 30), in particular the *Largo e Mesto* (here at 6:35). It is the second movement of the stunning No. 7, Op. 10 No. 3 and here played by Argerich. I always liked the Sonata No. 4 with its multi movements and ingenuity, but this one is further along the food chain of greatness: it anticipates the last, very great sonatas and inhabits some of that sound world (particularly from 10:00). It has that sense of a journey and inevitability, as well as transcendent quality, Beethoven mastered relatively quickly after he started composing in the genre. Note his use of the simplest repeated notes and melodic material in this Largo, sans emotionalism and virtuosity for its own sake. We can hear why it was so difficult for any competitors in the field. Mozart had been dead 6 or 7 years when this sonata was composed and this is a world away from Mozart:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Adagios/Largos of #4, #5 #7 #8 (Pathetique) is an incredible sequence of movements, each unlike the other, each unlike anything heard before. It is hard to believe that any composer could surpass the originality, beauty and substance of these early sonatas. But, of course, someone did.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2017)

DaveM said:


> The Adagios/Largos of #4, #5 #7 #8 (Pathetique) is an incredible sequence of movements, each unlike the other, each unlike anything heard before. It is hard to believe that any composer could surpass the originality, beauty and substance of these early sonatas. But, of course, someone did.


It's such a pleasure to read comments like that, and you are absolutely right. But with the *Largo e Mesto* there are strong elements which he later developed far more fully, say, from Sonata No. 28 onwards. These complete Beethoven sonatas...I couldn't imagine a world without them.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2017)

KenOC said:


> As Beethoven told Schindler: "There's not much to writing great music. I just make sure that each note is the only one that can properly follow the note that came before. And if it's not, I beat it until it is!"


This is part of the reason I worship Beethoven...he had that obsessive drive to get it right and that planetary-sized brain and volcanic talent which allowed it to happen. The idea of the gruff and difficult recluse - the ultimate non-conformist - also appeals very much.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Hi there! I've recently formed the view that if Schubert hadn't died at 31 he would attained the stature of Beethoven, though that composer's piano sonatas virtually from the first half dozen (composed when under 30) were already of a different order of magnitude.
> 
> In 2011 I stood in front of that house in Kettenbrückengasse in Vienna where Schubert breathed his last. The church for his funeral was about 1km away and my bus used to go past it regularly!! And, of course, Schubert was laid next to Beethoven to rest; both of them were 'moved' to Zentralfriedhof, Wien, at the end of the 19th century.


The music Schubert wrote aged 29-31 is unsurpassed by the music of anybody of comparable age.
That D800-D960 were written by a man that age is music's greatest miracle and greatest tragedy all at once.
The headstone quote about "a rich possession but even fairer hopes" is just so true.

I reckon if you complied a list of "masterpieces written by under-30s" Schubert would have more entries than Mozart, more than anyone in fact.

Graeme


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2017)

GraemeG said:


> The music Schubert wrote aged 29-31 is unsurpassed by the music of anybody of comparable age.
> That D800-D960 were written by a man that age is music's greatest miracle and greatest tragedy all at once.
> The headstone quote about "a rich possession but even fairer hopes" is just so true.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree!! Totally. "The art of music here entombed a rich possession and even fairer hopes". Believe me, when I stood before both Schubert headstones I had that resounding in my ears. And I stumbled across a little church in Vienna with a bust of the composer on a plinth outside. Apparently this is where he conducted the choir and presented some of his own sacred music. It was a freezing day and as I walked up the steps, away from the church to get the tram I looked back.....


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

GraemeG said:


> The music Schubert wrote aged 29-31 is unsurpassed by the music of anybody of comparable age.
> That D800-D960 were written by a man that age is music's greatest miracle and greatest tragedy all at once.
> The headstone quote about "a rich possession but even fairer hopes" is just so true.
> 
> ...


Agreed and therefore he doesn't belong in this thread. He was not eclipsed by Beethoven and long has been recognized as one of the greatest Composers in his own right.
Has anyone mentioned Spohr yet?


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Agreed and therefore he doesn't belong in this thread. He was not eclipsed by Beethoven and long has been recognized as one of the greatest Composers in his own right.
> Has anyone mentioned Spohr yet?


As mentioned earlier, Schubert was eclipsed by Beethoven in his own lifetime - with virtually none of his works published, much less performed. Some of his compositions were performed on a small scale, such as the sacred works in the church I mentioned and some of the lieder in his Schubertiade - but he had been overshadowed by a giant and it wasn't until WW2 that many of his piano sonatas were actually recorded in any number. Schubert was a creature of the salon and he could have been a giant in his own time.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Yes, sorry - it really is the wrong thread!

Wranitzky wrote some decent stuff too, but another Beethoven victim I guess.
Graeme


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Pavel Vranický (Paul Wranitzky) was a prolific composer - 44 symphonies, 56+ string quartets -- though most of his works that we hear today were composed before 1800. Both Haydn and Beethoven valued him as a conductor of their works around and shortly after 1800. Beethoven wrote a set of piano variations on one of his themes (WoO 71). He died in 1808. Eclipsed? Maybe.

Weber has been mentioned. He wrote two symphonies, to me a frustrating mix of impressive movements and tedious ones. Also Spohr, who has a marvelous work or two (including his nonet) but overall little that interests me.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

That's the ol' Ken I remember. This is roeselare


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> As mentioned earlier, Schubert was eclipsed by Beethoven in his own lifetime - with virtually none of his works published, much less performed. Some of his compositions were performed on a small scale, such as the sacred works in the church I mentioned and some of the lieder in his Schubertiade - but he had been overshadowed by a giant and it wasn't until WW2 that many of his piano sonatas were actually recorded in any number. Schubert was a creature of the salon and he could have been a giant in his own time.


Yes, but we aren't confined to to judging a Composer by how he was perceived during his lifetime. Otherwise Bruckner and Mahler would be nobodies, and Bizet the merest trifle. We are discussing considering how they appear from the vantage of posterity


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

pjang23 said:


> The Hummel Piano Trios, which I would take over any of those by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven.
> 
> View attachment 98102


should I investigate these?

no more than the user who told me that Clementi's ps are better and than Mozart's or Haydn's


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2017)

Triplets said:


> Yes, but we aren't confined to to judging a Composer by how he was perceived during his lifetime. Otherwise Bruckner and Mahler would be nobodies, and Bizet the merest trifle. We are discussing considering how they appear from the vantage of posterity


Yes, fair enough point - which I'm willing to concede.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

stomanek said:


> should I investigate these?
> 
> no more than the user who told me that Clementi's ps are better and than Mozart's or Haydn's


Certainly, and in particular the last three trios performed by Trio Parnassus. As Hummel was a great pianist in his day, the piano chamber works stand out in his output. And I assure you I mean no disrespect to the other composers, whose chamber output I prefer in areas other than their piano trios.

Piano Trio No.6, Op.93 (Mvt 1 Mvt 2 Mvt 3)
Piano Trio No.5, Op.83 (Mvt 1 Mvt 2 Mvt 3)

Don't miss the Piano Quintet in E flat or Cello Sonata either

Piano Quintet in E flat 
Cello Sonata


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

pjang23 said:


> Don't miss the Piano Quintet in E flat or Cello Sonata either
> 
> Piano Quintet in E flat
> Cello Sonata


Thanks for the tip, I've never heard those. They're lined up for listening tonight.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Just a note: Hummel's Piano Quintet is a big and juicy work, full of energy, invention, and good ideas. Quite a treat!


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

That Hummel Piano Quintet is a particular favourite of mine - sad it rarely gets a mention.

Edit - another fantastic work by Hummel is his cantata Der Durchzug durchs Rote Meer.
I have the recording on CPO conducted by Hermann Max.
Give it a try Ken I doubt you'll be disappointed.


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## Owllistening (Sep 29, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> Hummel Piano Concerto No. 3 in b minor (1819). This is one of my favorite Classical/Romantic concertos.


So much music, so little time - I wasn't really aware of Hummel, other than vaguely remembering hearing the name, but that piano concerto entranced me - so there's another composer I need to explore. Also, this thread's reminded me that I've been meaning for years to explore Weber beyond _Der Freischutz_.


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## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

Owllistening said:


> So much music, so little time - I wasn't really aware of Hummel, other than vaguely remembering hearing the name, but that piano concerto entranced me - so there's another composer I need to explore. Also, this thread's reminded me that I've been meaning for years to explore Weber beyond _Der Freischutz_.


The clarinet concertos and the clarinet quintet are top notch.


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