# Italian Modernism



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I seem to remember being taught in my music appreciation class that there was an Italian school of composers in the 20th century who, in the wake of the Second Viennese School (maybe even later, following the wars), adopted an ultra-modern, largely 12-tone style. I am quite curious about this because all of the 12-tone composers I know and love are German, or French like Boulez. 

Who are some major composers of this school? I know the names Nono, Dallapiccola, Berio. Are these the big names? Is there a significant difference in style between the German school and this Italian school? Wherein do the differences lie? Finally, what are some key compositions from this era and style?

Many thanks in advance for doing my research for me  I am only curious. Surely I could find the info I'm looking for on Wikipedia, but I find that such solo research often tends to give one a skewed perception of historical significance.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Berio's is certainly quite a big name and I have a lot of time for Nono but fear his music may not survive. And then there is Scelsi - another big name. I don't know if I hear nationality in any of their music, though. I think both took a fairly international (/European) stance.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This is nice I think


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Donatoni and Maderna are also worth mentioning, certainly.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Highly suggested.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The post war Darmstadt School consisted of German, French, and Italian composers among others. The big four being Nono, Maderna, Boulez, and Stockhausen according to Nono who coined the term.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> I am quite curious about this because all of the 12-tone composers I know and love are German, or French like Boulez.
> Who are some major composers of this school? I know the names Nono, Dallapiccola, Berio. Are these the big names?


You only know & love the Germans & Boulez? What about the Americans, the Polish and the British? Surely, there are some Czech and Hungarians, too. Australians as well. There are also individuals, such as the Catalan/English Roberto Gerhard or the Greek Skalkottas, who - regardless of nationality - specialized in serialism.
So there's plenty more 12-tone music to encounter besides those Italians.

My perspective is thus: Scelsi, Dallapiccola (& maybe Petrassi) began to dabble into atonality as early as the 1930s prior to WW II. After that war, more Italian serialists emerged around 1949, '50 & '51 such as Maderna & Nono. By 1959/'60, composers were exploring sonic textures/sonorism and I consider Berio as the leading Italian experimenter in this 'avant-garde' movement.

Sylvano Bussotti maybe the last survivor of this generation ...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

If you like Dallapiccola and Petrassi (and Ennio Porrino, big fan of Porrino) you could try also with Giovanni Salviucci, who is now much lesser known because he died young, but he was considered by many the best of that group. Altough what I've heard is more in a neoclassical vein:






Besides Nono, Berio and Maderna there are also Ivan Fedele, Carlo Mosso (like his Quaderni for the guitar), Franco Donatoni and Salvatore Sciarrino who are other important composers.
And obviously there's Scelsi, who in the first part of his career was closer to the music you're looking for.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Prodromides said:


> You only know & love the Germans & Boulez? What about the Americans, the Polish and the British? Surely, there are some Czech and Hungarians, too. Australians as well. There are also individuals, such as the Catalan/English Roberto Gerhard or the Greek Skalkottas, who - regardless of nationality - specialized in serialism.
> So there's plenty more 12-tone music to encounter besides those Italians.
> 
> My perspective is thus: Scelsi, Dallapiccola (& maybe Petrassi) began to dabble into atonality as early as the 1930s prior to WW II. After that war, more Italian serialists emerged around 1949, '50 & '51 such as Maderna & Nono. By 1959/'60, composers were exploring sonic textures/sonorism and I consider Berio as the leading Italian experimenter in this 'avant-garde' movement.
> ...


I'm very new to 12-tone and modern music. Hell I'm new to classical music in general. Did not care about it at all before December-ish. Boulez is a recent addition to my music library as of a couple days ago. Regarding the Italians, it's more of a curiosity than anything at this point, a curiosity that certainly spreads to the Greek Skalkottas, and perhaps some Americans (American Serialism strikes me, compared to its European counterpart, as somewhat... I don't know... more boring/academic? but I'm sure there is music of worth there). As for Czechs, Australians, Hungarians etc, I can't say I'm familiar with any who compose in a 12-tone style, unless we're counting Bartók as "12-tone".

Anyway, I very much appreciate everyone's contributions, and I will be returning to this thread to dip my toes into the water. Scelsi, huh. That's a new name to me. So is that of this Darmstadt school. Goes to show how clueless I am about all this.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

flamencosketches said:


> Anyway, I very much appreciate everyone's contributions, and I will be returning to this thread to dip my toes into the water. Scelsi, huh. That's a new name to me. So is that of this Darmstadt school. Goes to show how clueless I am about all this.


Scelsi is amazing but he's famous mostly for the second part of his career where he went in a completely different direction with his music. Uaxuctum is a fantastic introduction to his work.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Quattro pezzi su una nota is an example of Scelsi's later approach. Music based on one pitch.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

starthrower said:


> Quattro pezzi su una nota is an example of Scelsi's later approach. Music based on one pitch.


This is kind of interesting actually, I'll have to listen to the whole thing later.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Try the string quartet no.3 as well. I'm listening to it on YouTube.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Henze escaped persection from the post WW2 gestapo censorship mods, who , along with the entire Germanic classical community ran him off for holding *unacceptable political views,,,and his art also is against The New German Constitution*. 
So he escaped with the clothes on his back and went off to Italy, there to remain his entire life,,,every now and then Salzberg allowed his music to be performed. It was only in the late 20th C his music was given recognition by a few honorable conductors, Wergo made his music a possibility.
Also the great british conductor , rattle also a a great champion of the masters works. So although born in germany, his creative life was nutured in Italy.
Thus I consider Henze, not german, but Italian. 
Thus Henze is a Italian modern composer, Not german.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

PB: Ha, ha, I like the way you phrased that:



> _Henze escaped persection from the post WW2 gestapo censorship *mods,* who , along with the entire *Germanic classical community* ran him off for holding *unacceptable political views,,,and his art also is against The New German Constitution*._


_

_Your sarcasm does not escape me.

Concerning American serialism, there is of course Babbitt. Also, I like Arthur Berger and Harvey Sollberger:

[URL="https://www.amazon.com/Sollberger-Chamber-Variations-Riding-Divertimento/dp/B01G4BXT42/ref=sr_1_33?keywords=Sollberger&qid=1557850345&s=music&sr=1-33"]


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Also worthy of note is Argentine-American *Mario Davidovsky.* His major achievement was in figuring out a way to "synch" a live group with tape, using cues in the score & tape itself. Also, his "Synchronisms" series is great. Lots of wacko electronic sounds on tape, mixed with live performers, similar to Berio's Differences.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

flamencosketches said:


> ... a curiosity that certainly spreads to the Greek Skalkottas, and perhaps some Americans (American Serialism strikes me, compared to its European counterpart, as somewhat... I don't know... more boring/academic? but I'm sure there is music of worth there). As for Czechs, Australians, Hungarians etc, I can't say I'm familiar with any who compose in a 12-tone style, unless we're counting Bartók as "12-tone".


Hi 'newbie' flamencosketches.

You arrived at 12-tone music rather rapidly after only a half-year of getting 'into' the realm of absolute/concert music.
But, no, I wasn't referring to Bartok.

Here's a few I've encountered:

Hungarian

András Mihály (1917-1993)

Czech

Svatopluk Havelka (1925-2009)

Australian

Don Banks (1923-1980)
Malcolm Williamson (1931-2003) (unsure if Williamson was a true serialist, but he was labeled modern in 1960s U.K.)


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## Guest (May 14, 2019)

Been really into Ivan Fedele lately. He’s got some nice tunes when it comes to repertoire in a more traditional orchestral/chamber music setting. 

Composers who have made a name for themselves especially as opera composers: Sciarrino and Ronchetti. I don’t know if any of Ronchetti’s operas are actually commercially available, but there are recordings of her other works worth checking out. 

Also: Francesco Filidei, Clara Iannotta, Fausto Romitelli and Osvaldo Collucino spring to mind as other active Italian composers today. Serialism isn’t the big thing these days, so it’s interesting to see how styles have diversified even more since the mid 20th Century. 

Also, part of the older generation, don’t forget Bruno Maderna was a significant Italian modernist in the 20th Century. As was Franco Donatoni. 

I feel like we should probably mention the non-serialist Giacinto Scelsi as well.


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