# Exploring Mozart: Best works to start with?



## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

Greetings,
New to this community so "hello", nice to be here 
A brief background: I am just someone looking to explore classical music, I am not a student/aspiring musician but am rather in a profession that is unrelated to music. Other musical genres I like are metal, jazz and darkwave. I've always listened to my bit of classical (mostly Bach and a tad of Beethoven along with artists like Natalie Dessay and Patricia Petibon) but I've never really explored the genre. Doing that is one of the reasons I joined this community.

That said, from Mozart I currently only own his CD from *The World's Greatest Masterpieces* collection, which has a selection of his works. I really like it and so I would like to branch out and explore deeper his complete works, which ones would you recommend to further explore his music for someone who is getting started?

Thanks in advance!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Clarinet concerto
Requiem
Piano concertos 20/21


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Get the last three symphonies (No. 39-41) and some piano concertos. Then, try an opera, like The Marriage of Figaro. And watch the movie made on Mozart, Amadeus (1984).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

If you like metal and darkwave then the obvious best starting points with Mozart are the "Masonic Funeral Music" ("Mauerische Trauer Musik") and the Adagio and Fugue in C-minor.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hey Evoken,

Welcome to the forum! 

You might find some handy tips here. For me, as a Mozart junkie, I made a suggestion in that thread, but also, within works there are the most delicious and moving slow movements, especially in the piano concertos. So, famously we have the slow set from #21, but really, in any of his piano concertos you have profoundly beautiful but equally accessible music. As a quick starter package, get yourself piano concerto #20: it's exciting, moody, brilliant and contains contrasts and those flashes of mood which are a trademark of Mozart... :tiphat:


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

I think that his later violin concertos are excellent, his piano sonatas are also wonderful (I recently played one in G Major), and try the Requiem. 

You might also like Haydn, so perhaps trying some of his piano trios would be excellent as well.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

later symphonies
piano concertos
wind concertos
violin concertos
horn concertos
divertimenti
operas


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> If you like metal and darkwave then the obvious best starting points with Mozart are the "Masonic Funeral Music" ("Mauerische Trauer Musik") and the Adagio and Fugue in C-minor.


I would just say 'insufficient data' (know nothing about those genre), but Mandryka is no dummy, and he has a clue. The string quintet in a minor key could work then?


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Or just get the Grosse Fugue!


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I personally find the Piano Sonatas extremely addictive (K. 333 is a particularly good one). 

Or my absolute favourite is the Flute & Harp Concerto.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Winterreisender said:


> Or my absolute favourite is the Flute & Harp Concerto.


That's always been a very popular piece, which is why I was a little surprised when Charles Rosen dismissively called it 'Mozart's hackwork' in his book The Classical Style.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

if you already like Dessay and don't have *this*, you should go for it . And *this* for Petibon. If you already have them, apologies :tiphat:


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

Thanks for these recommendations! Quite a lot of material to look into  I think I'll start with the Piano Concertos, some of the Symphonies and the Marriage of Figaro.



shangoyal said:


> And watch the movie made on Mozart, Amadeus (1984).


I saw that film a long time ago, isn't it more historical fiction tho? Acclaimed as it was at the Oscars, I was under the impression that its full of historical inaccuracies and that it's portrayal of Mozart is rather off the mark.



Mandryka said:


> If you like metal and darkwave then the obvious best starting points with Mozart are the "Masonic Funeral Music" ("Mauerische Trauer Musik") and the Adagio and Fugue in C-minor.


Ah, interesting. I'll check these out too.



deggial said:


> if you already like Dessay and don't have *this*, you should go for it . And *this* for Petibon. If you already have them, apologies :tiphat:


Oh, I don't have those! Will have to get my hands on them, Dessay is fantastic. Thanks.

Thanks again for the recommendations, you guys gave me more than enough to get started.


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## Ondine (Aug 24, 2012)

The Masses, one by one!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Evoken said:


> I saw that film a long time ago, isn't it more historical fiction tho? Acclaimed as it was at the Oscars, I was under the impression that its full of historical inaccuracies and that it's portrayal of Mozart is rather off the mark.


I think the film is worth watching even though it's wildly fictional (especially Salieri). However, after reading Mozart's letters I would not say that his portrayal in the film is all that inaccurate. He does come off as a bit of a cheerful metrosexual who goes out every night and enjoys jamming at home with a bunch of friends where there's nothing good in town


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2013)

deggial said:


> I think the film is worth watching even though it's wildly fictional (especially Salieri). However, after reading Mozart's letters I would not say that his portrayal in the film is all that inaccurate. He does come off as a bit of a cheerful metrosexual who goes out every night and enjoys jamming at home with a bunch of friends where there's nothing good in town


I would agree that the portrayal of Mozart is probably not that far off even if the plot of the film is fictitious. This movie got me interested in Mozart and then classical music in general and I would HIGHLY recommend it to anyone interested in learning about his music. After seeing the movie I began my collection with the following:

1. Flute and Harp Concerto, K299
2. Sinfonia Concertant, K364
3. Piano Concerto No. 20, K466
4. "Gran Partita" Serenade, K361
5. Symphony No. 40, K550


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

You'll enjoy the violin concerti better if you listen to them in descending order. Start with 5 then 4, 3, 2 , 1.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

If you can handle opera, the works to begin with are Don Giovanni and The Marriage of Figaro. But if that's not your thing, then the 20th and 21st piano concertos, the 40th and 41st symphonies, the Requiem, the clarinet concerto and the clarinet quintet.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think we've mentioned everything Mozart ever composed now.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

It's more of the same but I'd go with Symphony 40, Piano Concerto 21, Clarinet Concerto and highlights from Magic Flute and Marriage of Figaro. You'll then know if Mozart is for you


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Even though the film might be inaccurate, it is totally worth watching because it's very well made. And it can get you into Mozart's music, it really can.


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## Schumann (Aug 12, 2013)

My personal most interesting works to introduce Mozart with are:

- Piano Concertos No. 20-24
- Concerto In C For Flute & Harp, K 299 
- Clarinet Quintet In A, K 581, "Stadler" 
- Serenade #10 In B Flat, K 361, "Gran Partita" 
- Mass In C Minor, K 427, "Great"
- Requiem In D Minor, K 626


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

For some reason the Violin Concertos are the only part of Mozart's music that I don't really like, even watching a live performance of the No.5 was not that enjoyable to me. I love the Piano Concertos, chamber music, symphonies, etc but not the Violin Concertos.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

deggial said:


> I think the film is worth watching even though it's wildly fictional (especially Salieri). However, after reading Mozart's letters I would not say that his portrayal in the film is all that inaccurate. He does come off as a bit of a cheerful metrosexual who goes out every night and enjoys jamming at home with a bunch of friends where there's nothing good in town


The play is good too. The play focused more on the financial hardships of Mozart, like a Dickens work. 
Paul Scofield, he of "A Man For All Seasons" played Salieri in London. Ian McKellen(Gandolf of Lord Of The Rings) played the same on Broadway.

I saw a local production with actors that I forget the names of.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Just a general note, these days when I have a question like this, my first resource is the classical music project on this site. Of course, like anything else, it's got its limitations and idiosyncrasies. But it's not bad.

My second resource is Dubal's _The Essential Canon of Classical Music_. Ditto on the limitations, but it is not very idiosyncratic.

Finally, a thing that is interesting is arkivmusic's search engine, which lets you see their records of how many times various works have been released. For example, here is Mozart's "soloist and orchestra" list: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=8429&name_role1=1&bcorder=1&genre=154

At the top you see the Adagio in E, K 261, recordings of which have been released 84 times according to Arkiv's records (as of this post). Recordings of the 20th piano concerto have been released 206 times. That tells me something....

Things like this have to be used carefully - operas will be recorded less often than piano sonatas, Arkiv doesn't know everything, it's an indication of a sort of popularity rather than of any kind of objective quality, etc. - But I find it useful when I think something like, "So, I like the two violin sonatas by Mozart that I've just heard... what other violin sonatas by him might I want to look up?"

The worst thing about it is that if you like, say, Mozart's horn concertos, it's unlikely that this method will lead you to Pokorny's. A tool for that has yet to be invented to the best of my knowledge - and it is the tool that I need!


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Evoken said:


> Greetings,
> New to this community so "hello", nice to be here
> A brief background: I am just someone looking to explore classical music, I am not a student/aspiring musician but am rather in a profession that is unrelated to music. Other musical genres I like are metal, jazz and darkwave. I've always listened to my bit of classical (mostly Bach and a tad of Beethoven along with artists like Natalie Dessay and Patricia Petibon) but I've never really explored the genre. Doing that is one of the reasons I joined this community.
> 
> ...


My first complete Mozart piece I ever listened to was the complete five movement version (not the standard four movement without the missing movement often performed today), of good-old _Eine kleine Nachtmusik_ K525.


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

science said:


> Just a general note, these days when I have a question like this, my first resource is the classical music project on this site. Of course, like anything else, it's got its limitations and idiosyncrasies. But it's not bad.
> 
> My second resource is Dubal's _The Essential Canon of Classical Music_. Ditto on the limitations, but it is not very idiosyncratic.
> 
> ...


Thanks science! This is some very useful info. I will bookmark the arkivmusic site for future reference 

Recently listened to the whole Marriage of Figaro and also Symphonies 40 and 41. I think I'll have to give Figaro another shot as it is quite long and it was a bit late when I heard it but the two Symphonies are brilliant, enjoyed them as much if not more than the Magic Flute Overture on the Mozart compilation I have, which is a lot.

I am not sure what it was with Figaro to be honest, aside from being quite long, it didn't quite grab me as the Symphonies did and it also seemed to meander quite a bit leading to me losing interest along the way. In any case, maybe if I give it another shot when I am less tired my impression will change.

I got my hands on the Requiem in D Minor, so that's next on the playlist.

Thanks again for the many recommendations everyone, got more than I could have hoped for


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

If you want to get into the operas, get DVDs or Blu-Rays. Opera is drama, not just music.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

Evoken said:


> Thanks science! This is some very useful info. I will bookmark the arkivmusic site for future reference
> 
> Recently listened to the whole Marriage of Figaro and also Symphonies 40 and 41. I think I'll have to give Figaro another shot as it is quite long and it was a bit late when I heard it but the two Symphonies are brilliant, enjoyed them as much if not more than the Magic Flute Overture on the Mozart compilation I have, which is a lot.
> 
> ...


Opera is rarely good for classical beginners. But yeah, if you look at the most-recommended works in this thread, I'm sure you'll find Piano Concerto No. 20 to be next on your list after those two symphonies and the Requiem Mass. And it's wonderful


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

The sinfonia concertante for violin, viola and orchestra is excellent. The overture to "The Marriage of Figaro" is delightful. I admit I'm not familiar with the rest of the opera. I also like his sinfonia concertante for four winds and orchestra (K. 297b). There is some uncertainty about whether he wrote it but it is such a great piece it is hard for me to imagine otherwise. Mozart wrote many great piano concerti but I am not familiar enough with them to know which ones to recommend.


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

About the Amadeus film, I watched it again yesterday on Netflix, I think that what the film lacks is balance when it comes to it's portrayal of Mozart. Sure, let's say he did many of the things the film shows him as doing, but I think that it basically only focuses on that and this is not balanced out with showing him as a brilliant composer. What I mean is that the film shows us a lot of the comical/goofy Mozart while almost completely neglecting the rest.

Compared to say, Immortal Beloved, the film of Beethoven starting Gary Oldman, which is also a historical fiction, that film at least gives use a more holistic view of the composer than Amadeus does.

Amadeus is definitely well made, produce and acted, but I am not convinced that it does a good job in giving us a holistic view of Mozart.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Mozart was nothing like the movie Amadeus! _Nowt, rien, nada! _

It's an entertaining flick and it shows a deep appreciation for his music, but it's essentially fiction and a travesty of justice towards Salieri, who in real life is reported to have sneaked Wolfie into his place of work where both of them would pore over old music manuscripts, like good workers do when they love their work.

The movie is a great way of getting into the music, though, and as a moral drama of the battle within the Salieri character and his faith, it's remarkable...


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

I would like to add that actually the movie _is_ balanced. Imagine the alternative. Mozart is shown only slightly goofy and is shown as a serious, considerate and intellectual kind of person who thinks twice before speaking. I think this is only an image of him which is formed in the mind of a listener when he tries to gauge his character from his music, and while that is in itself a "valid" judgement (not a realistic one), it's also useless for a film because you don't even need the film then.

So, therefore the film attempted a well-rounded sneak peek into the life and times of both Mozart and Salieri. Mozart was given due respect because the film _is _ about him, Salieri is given a chance to put his perspective forward. And Mozart only appears to be an exaggerated buffoon because you are so, so sure of the opposite somewhere deep inside you. That is perhaps the power of the music.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Yeah, but we have his letters and others impressions of him. I never read anywhere that he was a proto-rock star idiot who behaved like a spoilt brat and received music by transmission directly from God - which he kept wholly scored in his "noggin". :lol:

This is the 19th century Romantic view of Mozart, unsupported by contemporary accounts. It's a great film and I enjoyed it - but there are many rebuttals of this film which give us a picture of an erudite hardworking composer who loved his daddy, was humanly flawed, but not a womaniser, drunk or playboy.

I actually think a film on his life - based on what we know from history - would have been sufficiently dramatic and poignant...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

there _could_ have been more about his hard work and less aura of "woo, everything came easy to him 'cos he got genius", but I do generally agree with shangoyal here - as far as we can tell, of course, since none of us had the pleasure or displeasure of meeting the man (aside from bellbottom, of course :tiphat.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

We have his letters and contemporary reports.

We have _nothing_ which supports the Amadeus caricature...


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

What do you think about the BBC three part Documentary The Genius of Mozart? I am thinking about watching it tonight. Have read good things about it.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Evoken said:


> What do you think about the BBC three part Documentary The Genius of Mozart? I am thinking about watching it tonight. Have read good things about it.


I don't know that one! I'm sure it'll be interesting, hope you let us know!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Kieran said:


> We have his letters and contemporary reports.
> 
> We have _nothing_ which supports the Amadeus caricature...


but based on the letters he was a cheerful, happy-go-lucky, prank-loving, big mouth kinda chap, pretty much like in the film. After watching the film (once last year, again a few months ago) I didn't come off with a feel that he was portrayed as a heavy drinking womaniser. I know there were some hints, but, come on, most of us have been there once or twice, doesn't mean we're single-handedly keeping pubs in business (maybe I shouldn't speak for everybody  but you get what I mean).

the BBC doc is also on youtube. It's good, but after a while all of them start to blend into one.


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

Kieran said:


> I don't know that one! I'm sure it'll be interesting, hope you let us know!


Here are the links for all three parts it on YouTube:


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

In the film he's a spoilt partying brat, and it's hinted very strongly that he cheated on his wife, stayed out boozing and generally had a loose attitude to his work. His letters show a chap with a sense of humour - but not a guffawing jackass. The Mozart who wrote to his dad about Idomeneo, for example, the erudite insightful psychologist of music is far removed from the Amadeus caricature. We also get the poverty-stricken Mozart of myth being chucked into the paupers grave, as if he died without 2 pence to rattle together on a tombstone. I'd recommend HC Robbins Landon's book _1791_ as an alternate view, but one that's backed by contemporary sources.

Also, Salieri is very badly drawn in that film. I mean, apart from the deathbed liberty, the rest of it too! This whole Salieri-poison scandal originated in the 19th century, and is wholly unfair.

I like the film - as entertainment and I love the way the Salieri character appreciates the music - but it's a fiction, more or less...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Kieran said:


> In the film he's a spoilt partying brat, and it's hinted very strongly that he cheated on his wife, stayed out boozing and generally had a loose attitude to his work. His letters show a chap with a sense of humour - but not a guffawing jackass. The Mozart who wrote to his dad about Idomeneo, for example, the erudite insightful psychologist of music is far removed from the Amadeus caricature. We also get the poverty-stricken Mozart of myth being chucked into the paupers grave, as if he died without 2 pence to rattle together on a tombstone. I'd recommend HC Robbins Landon's book _1791_ as an alternate view, but one that's backed by contemporary sources.
> 
> Also, Salieri is very badly drawn in that film. I mean, apart from the deathbed liberty, the rest of it too! This whole Salieri-poison scandal originated in the 19th century, and is wholly unfair.
> 
> I like the film - as entertainment and I love the way the Salieri character appreciates the music - but it's a fiction, more or less...


don't get me wrong, I agree with you about those cheap melodramatic bits (the grave, the film making him look like a bit of a giggling moron and the ridiculous portrayal of Salieri as someone who was politically shrewd but a sad sap emotionally because his daddy didn't love him). The back and forth about Idomeneo and Entfuhrung is my favourite part from the letters - quite fascinating - and he doesn't ever come off as dim-witted. But he did enjoy partying (come on, he was out every night!) and jamming with his friends when he had no concerts. As to whether he cheated or not that is hard to tell because he certainly would not have written about that to his really uptight father, haha. He does not come off as a rabid womaniser, though. But I personally did not get this from the film - I do remember the scenes you're referring to but I think they came after some argument or another he had with Stanze. And you know there can be a lot of flirting before anything untoward happens.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I didn't see him out every night when I was in 8th century Byzantine Christian Indian town! :lol:

They made up that guy. In the directors cut you see him turning up to teach a pupil and his clothes are shabby, he's drinking from a bottle of wine and he's every inch the rock star. You also see his wife strip off before Salieri to offer herself so he'll give Wolfie a job. Nice to watch - I do not complain! - but pure fiction. I know, they have a movie to make, and it brought his music to everyone's attention, so on the main, it's been great for him!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

oh, the wife stripping scene... well, I can see a bit of Dorabella in her 

I think he was a different man in the 8th century. I hear that's when he wrote the bulk of his religious music. The 18th was a time of loose morals and debauchery, on the other hand.


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

Nice discussion so far 

I got to see the BBC Documentary and it is really great. I think it definitely does a much better job than Amadeus when it comes to giving a more proper and complete view of Mozart. It also really gets you into his music and helps you better appreciate it and also his state of mind when he composed some of his popular pieces. The scenes where you see him rehearsing some of the Operas were really nice.

It is three hours long but it is worth watching.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ is this the one doc where they had actors play him and his wife etc.? it was a bit weird but fun


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

Yeah that's the one


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

Curiosity: What is it behind Mozart's symphony #7 vs #7A? I mean the naming convention. As far as I can see, #7A is the only one of his symphonies named with a letter after the number.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Evoken said:


> Curiosity: What is it behind Mozart's symphony #7 vs #7A? I mean the naming convention. As far as I can see, #7A is the only one of his symphonies named with a letter after the number.


7a is a totally separate work, also called the "Old Lambach." I have no idea why it is called "7a". It's not included with his numbered series, nor are several other symphonies now attributed to Wolfgang. The usual shorthand is K. Anh. 221/45a.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_symphonies


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## Evoken (Oct 13, 2013)

I see, thanks for the info KenOC


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