# Western classical music in 16th-18th century Asia?



## architecture

Anyone know of any? Maybe scores left behind in Catholic/Jesuit archives? 

The only ones I've encountered so far are some pieces by Pedrini and Amiot (aside from some speculative reconstructions of music that could have been performed in the Jesuit churches of Beijing, and some records of performances of Rameau given at the Qing court)

Would be so interested to hear or browse through scores of Western-style music written or performed in the Spanish colonial Philippines, in Macau, or in the Jesuit missions in Nagasaki, etc.

Thanks!


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## Bwv 1080

There is this:






https://bibliolore.org/2012/05/20/hindustani-harpsichord-music/


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## Roger Knox

architecture said:


> Anyone know of any? Maybe scores left behind in Catholic/Jesuit archives?


This is a significant topic that I would like to know more about -- thanks for introducing it.


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## Craveoon

During my travel to India, especially the Southern state of Kerala, which has a sizeable Christian population - I did chance across a lot of English-influenced music in the local language. However, I do not have a concrete memory of it. I'll send it across if I find any.


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## science

architecture said:


> Anyone know of any? Maybe scores left behind in Catholic/Jesuit archives?
> 
> The only ones I've encountered so far are some pieces by Pedrini and Amiot (aside from some speculative reconstructions of music that could have been performed in the Jesuit churches of Beijing, and some records of performances of Rameau given at the Qing court)
> 
> Would be so interested to hear or browse through scores of Western-style music written or performed in the Spanish colonial Philippines, in Macau, or in the Jesuit missions in Nagasaki, etc.
> 
> Thanks!


How far west are you willing to carry the question? Would Western-style music in the Ottoman Empire interest you?

To some extent, actually, during those centuries, Western-style music would be rather exotic even in Russia.


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## ruslan and rudemilla

science said:


> How far west are you willing to carry the question? Would Western-style music in the Ottoman Empire interest you?
> 
> To some extent, actually, during those centuries, Western-style music would be rather exotic even in Russia.


Unfortunately architecture is no longer with us, having been banned by the administration of this forum


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## Josquin13

Teodorico Pedrini's predecessor at the imperial court in Beijing was Tomás Pereira. Other names of western musicians in China would include Matteo Ricci, Adam Schall von Bell, and Ferdinand Verbiest, in addition to Jean Joseph-Marie Amiot, who you mention. The following conference paper, entitled "The Introduction of Western Secular and Sacred Music to China and Macao: A Historical Coda" by Cesar Guillen-Nuñez may be of interest, if you don't already know it: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...usic-to-China-and-Macao-A-Historical-Coda.pdf

As for recordings, I only know of two CDs that were put out by the Auvidis/Astrée label back in the 1990s, from the ensemble, Musique des Lumiéres, entitled (1) "Baroque Concert at the Forbidden City" and (2) "Messe des jesuites de Pekin" or "Mass of the Jesuits in Beijing": which blend baroque instruments with Chinese instruments, in the music of Pedrini & Amiot. Do you know these CDs? if not, they're fascinating:










However, evidently, there have been two more recent CDs from Musique des Lumieres from the early 2000s that I didn't know about,

--Chine:jésuites et courtisanes (Buda Records, Musique du monde, 2002), or "China: Jesuits & Courtiers"
--Vepres a la Vierge en Chine (2004)

I got the names of these latter two CDs from a blog by Stephen Jones, whose various blogs on this subject may be of interest to you (you can access Jones' blogs in the links provided at the bottom of the page in the following article by him):

https://stephenjones.blog/2019/01/11/qing-court-music-2/

(I believe there is more music to be heard from the Catholic missionaries in Mexico and Latin & South America, if that is of interest? The Hilliard Ensemble recorded a 2 CD set of this music entitled, "Spain in the New World--Renaissance music from Aragon and Mexico", and the now defunct K.617 label once did a whole series on the composer Domenico Zipoli that is excellent. As part of this series, Gabriel Garrido and Ensemble Elyma recorded the sacred music of Zipoli, who was a Jesuit priest that spent time in the territories of the Chiquitos tribes, in what is now Bolivia. I have found Zipoli's music to be very worthwhile. Jordi Savall and Hesperion XXI have also recorded Baroque music from Latin and South America.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013M3G078/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp
https://www.amazon.com/Zipoli-Sacre...domenico+zipoli&qid=1625128821&s=music&sr=1-3
https://www.amazon.com/Chemins-Du-B...domenico+zipoli&qid=1625128821&s=music&sr=1-5

ETC.)

Hope that helps.


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## RICK RIEKERT

This article may be of some interest:

https://openresearch-repository.anu..._Irving_The_Dissemination_and_Use_of_2009.pdf


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## Eriks

A while ago I learned about South American baroque music and was bowled over. I know that philipinos love to sing and imagined what marvellous music might have been created during the meeting of spanish baroque and the native peoples. When I investigated it I got the impression that there is almost nothing left and most manuscripts burned during WW2. If someone finds out examples of surviving music, please post here!

With some imagination, couldn't katakataka be a cheerful baroque piece:


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## Eriks

“ 1) "Baroque Concert at the Forbidden City" and (2) "Messe des jesuites de Pekin" or "Mass of the Jesuits in Beijing": which blend baroque instruments with Chinese instruments, in the music of Pedrini & Amiot. Do you know these CDs? if not, they're fascinating:”

Thanks a lot! Very interesting! I searched a lot to find that type of CDs. 

It’s a completely different thing but note that one of Jordi Savall”s historical albums has as its theme the meeting between a Jesuit missionary and India and east asia. It’s called “La ruta de oriente”.


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## Eriks

Josquin13 said:


> .
> 
> As for recordings, I only know of two CDs that were put out by the Auvidis/Astrée label back in the 1990s, from the ensemble, Musique des Lumiéres, entitled (1) "Baroque Concert at the Forbidden City" and (2) "Messe des jesuites de Pekin" or "Mass of the Jesuits in Beijing": which blend baroque instruments with Chinese instruments, in the music of Pedrini & Amiot. Do you know these CDs? if not, they're fascinating:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, evidently, there have been two more recent CDs from Musique des Lumieres from the early 2000s that I didn't know about,
> 
> --Chine:jésuites et courtisanes (Buda Records, Musique du monde, 2002), or "China: Jesuits & Courtiers"
> --Vepres a la Vierge en Chine (2004)…
> 
> Hope that helps.


Thanks for taking the time to write your post. I purchased three of the China-related recordings you mentioned, first impression is very positive. And in addition to their historical interest they will perhaps also be a gentle intro to Chinese music, especially the operatic recording.


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