# Do black opera/classical singers have more notes on average and darker low notes?



## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

I wasn't sure how to phrase this. Basically a black opera singer who was giving me some ...guidance shall we say during a singing course was saying to me that black voices are "different." And that I (being partly black) would have more notes than most other girls and a darker lower section while still being bright at the top. I do have a lot of power from middle C down to G3, and when singing the baritone solo in Faure's 'Libera Me' for fun in a practise room, someone outside thought there was a man in there with me...

Things get most exciting from D5 upwards and I have harmonics above C6. I think he was saying that white singing teachers may not be aware that I would have more notes. Does anyone think there is any truth to this? Are black singing voices "different" in some way from the other ethnic groups? What are the traits usually found in black voices? And in other races' voices?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Once I skimmed through a book on black opera singers called _And So I Sing_, which suggested that black singers do have easier and rounder low notes and that this is the result of certain physical attributes, namely the lips. The book also said that black singers' high notes tend to be a little less "easy." I feel there's some truth to this, because if you compare, for example, Juan Diego Florez (a white Spaniard, even though he's from Peru) and Lawrence Brownlee (a black American) singing the aria "Ah, mes amis" from LA FILLE DU REGIMENT, you'll hear that Florez is more of a "natural" for the part of the aria with the nine high C's. You'll also hear that Brownlee has a rounder and somewhat darker voice than Florez's slender, bright one. Also, there have been relatively few black coloratura sopranos (Kathleen Battle is an exception) but a number of black spinto sopranos and mezzos: Leontyne Price, Jessye Norman, Martina Arroyo, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett.

Edited to add: Maestro Richard Bonynge was quoted in the same book as saying that Asian voices are something like black voices, but I can't remember in what way. I think he said it was something to do with the bone structure of the face.


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

Thank you so much for your reply! I will check out the book you mentioned. I looked on youtube and listened to the two male singers and I think I see what you mean. Which makes me think...if parts like that were 'made for' a singer like Florez, does that also mean it was basically 'made for' a white singer. I wonder if black singers feel arias cater for the European voice and not for theirs. Perhaps something like 'Porgy and Bess' was written with black singers' vocal abilites in mind?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Interesting thread and food for thought.
Thanks


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I have no idea_ how_ it would affect the voice but it seems reasonable that it would do so. Ethnicity affects the shape of our skulls so it would affect the sounds as well.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Musicforawhile said:


> Thank you so much for your reply! I will check out the book you mentioned. I looked on youtube and listened to the two male singers and I think I see what you mean. Which makes me think...if parts like that were 'made for' a singer like Florez, does that also mean it was basically 'made for' a white singer. I wonder if black singers feel arias cater for the European voice and not for theirs.


I suppose what you say is strictly true but it shouldn't be overstated. 'The past is another country' as far as singing is concerned. We don't know exactly what the first Tonio in la Fille du Regiment sounded like (and I must admit I haven't done any research on the Opéra Comique singers of that period) but I doubt he sounded much like Florez. For a start, the high Cs in the big aria would have probably been sung with more than a touch of falsetto: by 1840 Duprez had already sung his famous high C from the chest, but that does not mean he was immediately imitated everywhere. Others will no doubt know more on this subject (that is, the technique of singing and how it has changed from Donizetti's day to our own) than I do. But I think that, just by comparing recordings by singers active in the second half of the nineteenth century with the singers active now, I can confidently say that singing has changed so much (I'm tempted to say 'beyond recognition') that any physical differences between singers of different ethnic origins are of comparatively very little importance- which is not to deny any physical advantages that non-white singers may well have.

I'm white and not a musician, so I'm happy to be put right by anyone who knows about this stuff!


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

The first line from my favourite book : )

You know a lot about music history for someone who isn't a musician...


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I would venture to guess yes (to the darker vocal color, not the range). in general, black people have a bit more "facial space" because their features are a bit more broad than Caucasians and Oriental people.


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## messadivoce (Apr 18, 2014)

This is an interesting topic. I myself am half asian, half white. I wonder what my physical structure is because it really is just an experiment physiologically.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett and Jessye Norman all sang both mezzo and soprano roles successfully and Marian Anderson recorded Casta Diva successfully. Norman's chest register is much bigger than most contraltos.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I can't contribute much here but I recall Grace Bumbry saying in an interview that black voices had an extra richness. I have often (but certainly not always) heard a resonance in the speaking voices of black people which would surely translate into their singing. When I was in college a number of people felt that Leontyne Price's voice "sounded black." I'm inclined to think there's something to this.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Speaking of race, other than an Asian man who sings Wagner, I have heard of many fine Asian singers, but none of the women have spinto or dramatic voices. I don't know the reason for this.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Speaking of race, other than an Asian man who sings Wagner, I have heard of many fine Asian singers, but none of the women have spinto or dramatic voices. I don't know the reason for this.


Hui He?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

MAuer said:


> Hui He?


I was going to ask about her too.
Maybe Seattleoperafan think she is too lyrical.
She is still one of the most if not the most frequent performer in the role of Aida in our time and have performed several times as Tosca and Madama Butterfly.
I can also say that operas that require spinto and dramatic voices are performed in Asia by Asian singers and there are also several Asian singers singing these roles in the West and notice I said roles.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

I love how people are mature enough to discuss this subject objectively without peeps being like "that's racist!". it's refreshing to know that, at least in some circles, race is less of a hot button issue


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Well she proved me wrong.It is big and beautiful, plus she is gorgeous on stage. I had never heard of her. You just don't hear about many. I know for Turandot in Peking they used a Western singer for the title role.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well she proved me wrong.It is big and beautiful, plus she is gorgeous on stage. I had never heard of her. You just don't hear about many. I know for Turandot in Peking they used a Western singer for the title role.


But not in Verona:






Hiromi Omura same:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well she proved me wrong.It is big and beautiful, plus she is gorgeous on stage. I had never heard of her. You just don't hear about many. I know for Turandot in Peking they used a Western singer for the title role.


Well shut my mouth. I am knowledgeable about Golden Age sopranos, but knew nothing of the significant crop of Asian dramatic sopranos. I have been schooled. But Birgit and Turner need not worry about their reputations. I will still say I will be surprised to see an Asian Bruinhilde.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Well shut my mouth. I am knowledgeable about Golden Age sopranos, but knew nothing of the significant crop of Asian dramatic sopranos. I have been schooled. But Birgit and Turner need not worry about their reputations. I will still say I will be surprised to see an Asian Bruinhilde.


Of course there are Asian Brünnhildes.

Mari Midorikawa:






Shoko Fukuda:











Birgit Nilsson was exceptional so one can´t demand singers to be like her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sloe you slew me. I had no idea. I haven't heard of these singers in the US. Often they have wide masks to their faces which one would think would be great for producing a large sound so this makes sense. I am glad I said something so we could all be educated.
Here is another query along these lines: Jessye Norman sang Kundry, Elsa and Sieglinde, and portions of Isolde and Bruinhilde in concert. Jessye was too much of a mezzo IMHO to sing the later two successfully complete. I know Martina Arroyo was a great Elsa, but I can't think of any successful Black Bruinhildes or Isoldes. Can anyone think of any? The closest was Bumbry singing Salome by Strauss. I do know of Black males who have specialized in Wagner.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I can't think of any successful Black Bruinhildes or Isoldes.


Norman doing Liebestod in recital may be the best we can do. I can't think of anyone.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Wow, sloe! Are Asian dramatic sopranos your specialism?  I have to say that the only Asian opera singers I know of are Sumi Jo, Hui He and Kwangchul Youn. Oh, and Kathleen Kim, who's Korean-American. And Hiromi Omura, who's not really _that_ famous. But five is just a drop in the ocean, really.

But anyway, I too have notice the luscious tones of black, and particularly *African-American* sopranos and mezzos. I've often wondered why (and thanked God that!) the African-American community has been able to produce a perhaps disproportionately large number of _really_ famous singers. I mean, there's Marian Anderson, Harolyn Blackwell, Mattiwilda Dobbs, Leontyne Price, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett, Jessye Norman, Martina Arroyo, Kathleen Battle, Reri Grist, Barbara Hendricks, Denyce Graves...


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BaronScarpia said:


> Wow, sloe! Are Asian dramatic sopranos your specialism?  I have to say that the only Asian opera singers I know of are Sumi Jo, Hui He and Kwangchul Youn. Oh, and Kathleen Kim, who's Korean-American. And Hiromi Omura, who's not really _that_ famous. But five is just a drop in the ocean, really.
> 
> But anyway, I too have notice the luscious tones of black, and particularly *African-American* sopranos and mezzos. I've often wondered why (and thanked God that!) the African-American community has been able to produce a perhaps disproportionately large number of _really_ famous singers. I mean, there's Marian Anderson, Harolyn Blackwell, Mattiwilda Dobbs, Leontyne Price, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett, Jessye Norman, Martina Arroyo, Kathleen Battle, Reri Grist, Barbara Hendricks, Denyce Graves...


And the tenor George Shirley:


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> And the tenor George Shirley:
> 
> View attachment 53476


I was focussing on female singers - there just seem to be _so many_ black American female opera singers. But for men we have Simon Estes, Eric Owens, Lawrence Brownlee and, as you said, George Shirley to name but a few!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sloe you slew me. I had no idea. I haven't heard of these singers in the US. Often they have wide masks to their faces which one would think would be great for producing a large sound so this makes sense. I am glad I said something so we could all be educated.
> Here is another query along these lines: Jessye Norman sang Kundry, Elsa and Sieglinde, and portions of Isolde and Bruinhilde in concert. Jessye was too much of a mezzo IMHO to sing the later two successfully complete. I know Martina Arroyo was a great Elsa, but I can't think of any successful Black Bruinhildes or Isoldes. Can anyone think of any? The closest was Bumbry singing Salome by Strauss. I do know of Black males who have specialized in Wagner.


Grace Bumbry sang Venus at Bayreuth. It was recorded. Agree about Norman.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Norman did two recordings of the Immolation Scene. She did an all Wagner disc that was fantastic and she was very fat and fabulous and in perfect voice. Her Immolation Scene there was one of my very favorite. Later she opened Benaroya Hall in Seattle on PBS, and it was painful. Bumbry probably could have sung Bruinhilde, but it was probably best that she didn't.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

There is a current Black soprano who is of this juicy, rich, big range mold:Mary Elizabeth Williams.



She has a big juicy spinto/ dramatic with a rich, Verdi low voice and her C# in Trovatore was spine chilling.... much bigger in sound than Price in her upper register. Price had a gorgeous top, but it wasn't as big as the rest of her voice. I also knew of a Black soprano, Wendy Waller, who sang both Salome and the Queen of the Night. Bet you haven't heard that combination before. She is on Youtube if interested.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

BaronScarpia said:


> Wow, sloe! Are Asian dramatic sopranos your specialism?  I have to say that the only Asian opera singers I know of are Sumi Jo, Hui He and Kwangchul Youn. Oh, and Kathleen Kim, who's Korean-American. And Hiromi Omura, who's not really _that_ famous. But five is just a drop in the ocean, really.
> 
> But anyway, I too have notice the luscious tones of black, and particularly *African-American* sopranos and mezzos. I've often wondered why (and thanked God that!) the African-American community has been able to produce a perhaps disproportionately large number of _really_ famous singers. I mean, there's Marian Anderson, Harolyn Blackwell, Mattiwilda Dobbs, Leontyne Price, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett, Jessye Norman, Martina Arroyo, Kathleen Battle, Reri Grist, Barbara Hendricks, Denyce Graves...


From time to time I look for Asian opera performances. Then they are not that difficult to find. To find Korean Turandots one only have to search turandot korea. To find Japanese Brünnhilde search Götterdämmerung Tokyo.

What I haven´t find is an Asian Elektra or Salome.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> From time to time I look for Asian opera performances. Then they are not that difficult to find. To find Korean Turandots one only have to search turandot korea. To find Japanese Brünnhilde search Götterdämmerung Tokyo.


All I brought up on Google were performances at the New National Theatre Tokyo where Tristan and the Ring had all western singers.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

BaronScarpia said:


> Wow, sloe! Are Asian dramatic sopranos your specialism?  I have to say that the only Asian opera singers I know of are Sumi Jo, Hui He and Kwangchul Youn. Oh, and Kathleen Kim, who's Korean-American. And Hiromi Omura, who's not really _that_ famous. But five is just a drop in the ocean, really.
> 
> But anyway, I too have notice the luscious tones of black, and particularly *African-American* sopranos and mezzos. I've often wondered why (and thanked God that!) the African-American community has been able to produce a perhaps disproportionately large number of _really_ famous singers. I mean, there's Marian Anderson, Harolyn Blackwell, Mattiwilda Dobbs, Leontyne Price, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett, Jessye Norman, Martina Arroyo, Kathleen Battle, Reri Grist, Barbara Hendricks, *Denyce Graves*...


<3 I saw her live in Kansas City about a year ago in The Mikado. I was like "**** the rest of the operetta. gimme more of that!" (it also successfully took my attention off the attractive men's choir which was surrounding me in the audience).


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Once I skimmed through a book on black opera singers called _And So I Sing_, which suggested that black singers do have easier and rounder low notes and that this is the result of certain physical attributes, namely the lips. The book also said that black singers' high notes tend to be a little less "easy." I feel there's some truth to this, because if you compare, for example, Juan Diego Florez (a white Spaniard, even though he's from Peru) and Lawrence Brownlee (a black American) singing the aria "Ah, mes amis" from LA FILLE DU REGIMENT, you'll hear that Florez is more of a "natural" for the part of the aria with the nine high C's. You'll also hear that Brownlee has a rounder and somewhat darker voice than Florez's slender, bright one. Also, there have been relatively few black coloratura sopranos (Kathleen Battle is an exception) but a number of black spinto sopranos and mezzos: Leontyne Price, Jessye Norman, Martina Arroyo, Grace Bumbry, Shirley Verrett.
> 
> Edited to add: Maestro Richard Bonynge was quoted in the same book as saying that Asian voices are something like black voices, but I can't remember in what way. I think he said it was something to do with the bone structure of the face.


those are stars. you have to hear many to draw a conclusion.

I'll hear Derrick Lawrence in a concert on 22th, he'll be the first trained black singer I hear live.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

It does sound like some black voices have an extra roundness or richness, however, in terms of having a lot of seriously low-range voices the Slavs have everyone beat.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

The best Die Entführung aus dem Serail (1980) for me is the one where Willard White played Osmin. OMG I was floored by his voice.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

sabrina said:


> The best Die Entführung aus dem Serail (1980) for me is the one where Willard White played Osmin. OMG I was floored by his voice.


well, I'm mostly Czech, so maybe that's where it comes from


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