# Symphonies with less/more than 4 movement



## Arsakes

*Symphonies with less/more than 4 movements*

So do you have any favorites for this kind of symphony?

I can recall this for now:

- Schubert Symphony No.10
- Dvorak Symphony No.3
- Schumann Symphony No.3 'Rhenish'
- Haydn Symphony No.60 'Il Distratto'
- Hovhaness Symphony No.3
- Sibelius Symphony No.3 & 5
- Glazunov Symphony No.4
- Saint Saens Symphony No.3 'Organ'
- Mahler Symphony No.2 & 7


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## Ukko

Bartók's CfO is pretty much a symphony.


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## Delicious Manager

That should be FEWER than four movements, by the way.


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## moody

Do you mean less or more?


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## Arsakes

moody said:


> Do you mean less or more?


Both. Any number of movements except 4.

Borodin's unfinished Symphony No.3 with 2 movements is another example.


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## campy

Franck & Chausson — 3 movements
Ives 2nd — 5 movements


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## Manxfeeder

I like Roy Harris' 3d Symphony; only one movement. 
Anton Webern's symphony is only two movements. 
Vaughan Willliams' 7th symphony has five movements. 
Mahler's 3rd has six movements. 
Brian's Gothic Symphony has a three-movement Part 1 and a Te Deum setting in Part 2.


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## Ramako

Sibelius 3 and 5 are 3 movements, and his 7th is of course only one movement...
Mozart 38 has three movements
Beethoven 6 could have 5 movements depending on how you count it

However I think 4 is the right number of movements for a symphony.


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## SuperTonic

Of Shostakovich's 15 symphonies, only 7 are in the standard 4 movements. Symphonies 2 and 3 have 1 movement each. 4 and 6 have 3 movements each. Symphonies 8, 9, and 13 each have 5 movements. And then there's the odd 14th Symphony with 11 movements (some say the 14th isn't really a symphony, but that's what the composer called it so that is good enough for me to consider it one).


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## realdealblues

Many of my favorites have already been mentioned.
But here's a couple:
Joly Braga Santos - Symphony #1 - 3 Movements
Joly Braga Santos - Symphony #6 - 6 Movements
Havergal Brian - Symphony #4 - 3 Movements
Havergal Brian - Symphony #12 - 5 Movements
Havergal Brian - Symphony #20 - 3 Movements
Havergal Brian - Symphony #25 - 3 Movements
Havergal Brian - Symphony #31 - 1 Movement


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## techniquest

> Bartók's CfO is pretty much a symphony.


Yes - and an excellent work it is too 
Rachmaninov's 'Symphonic Dances' is pretty much a 3-movement symphony just like his 3rd symphony is.


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## Stargazer

Mahler's 8th? I think Mahler has the most in this thread so far! There's quite a few out there though.


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## Lisztian

Both of Liszt's.
Berlioz SF.


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## Andreas

Barber 2
Beethoven 6
Górecki 2 and 3
Hindemith, Mathis der Maler
Honegger 2
Hovhaness 1, 22 and 50
Nielsen 5
Sibelius 5


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## drpraetorus

Mozart 31
Shostakovich 4, 13, 14
Gottschalk 2
Hovaness Mysterious Mountain


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## maestro267

All of Arnold Bax's 7 symphonies are in 3 movements, and all of them have a central movement marked Lento.

Anton Rubinstein's Symphony No. 2 (Ocean) has 7 movements.

Malcolm Arnold's 1st, 3rd, 6th, 7th and 8th symphonies are all in 3 movements.


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## ahammel

Janáček's Sinfonietta in five movements


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## Manok

SuperTonic said:


> Of Shostakovich's 15 symphonies, only 7 are in the standard 4 movements. Symphonies 2 and 3 have 1 movement each. 4 and 6 have 3 movements each. Symphonies 8, 9, and 13 each have 5 movements. And then there's the odd 14th Symphony with 11 movements (some say the 14th isn't really a symphony, but that's what the composer called it so that is good enough for me to consider it one).


Sometimes his 2nd is played as 2 movements.


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## DeepR

Scriabin 1, 2, 3(?)


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## nikitema

> So do you have any favorites for this kind of symphony?


Yes, of course.
My favorite:
Beethoven number 6
and
The Symphonie Fantastique by Berlioz


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## davinci

Joseph Kraus's early symphonies with only 3 movements; no minuet.
And I like Boccherini's #2 and 4....only 3 movements.


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## drth15

Pettersen 7th


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## presto

J C Bach (the London Bach) composed around 48 delightful symphonies all in 3 movements.
This always seemed strange to me, as elsewhere the 4 movement form was well established at that time.
Maybe London was a bit behind the times!


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## Aries

*1 movement:*

Shostakovic:
- No. 2
- No. 3

Martin Scherber:
- No. 2
- No. 3

*2 movements:*

Schubert:
- No. 8

Saint-Saens:
- No. 3

Mahler:
- No. 8

Prokofiev: 
- No. 2

*3 movements:*

Frederick the Great:
- No. 3

Haydn
- No. 1 and many more

Mozart:
- No. 34

Bruckner:
- No. 9 (if the great reconstructed finale is not added)

Sibelius:
- No. 5

Shostakovic:
- No. 4

*5 movements:*

Beethoven:
- No. 6

Mahler:
- No. 2
- No. 5

*6 movements:*

Mahler:
- No. 3
- Das Lied von der Erde


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## TudorMihai

- Dukas - Symphony in C major (3 movements)
- Enescu - Symphony No. 1 (3 movements)
- Rachmaninoff - Symphony No. 3 (3 movements)


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## Weston

I am with Ramako on this. Four is the right number of movements for a symphony. I wouldn't want to restrict composers, but I think sometimes they just write works and call them symphonies for lack of a better word. Three becomes more like an elaborate baroque concerto grosso, but I can still conceive of a symphony with three movements. Two is just a couple of linked ideas written roughly the same place and time. Five and you suddenly have a suite. These days I think we should abandon the word if we're going to deviate so far from the form. We should just give the works descriptive names and be done with it. 

Having said all that, there are works I enjoy with two three or five movements.

Daniel Asia - Symphony No. 3, 3 movements, about 12 minutes long. This is a great piece, but if it's a symphony it is for the sound byte age.

Leonardo Balada - Symphony No. 4, 1 movement ~ 18 minutes. Oh come now! Just call it an overture. In fairness it sort of has internal movements.

Irwin Bazelon - Symphony No. 2 ("Short Symphony", "Testament to a Big City"), 3 movements, 14 minutes. I'd call it a tone poem divided into sections. 

That's up to the "B's" in my collection, but I've got to get some sleep.


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## DavidA

No doubt as to my own favourite - Beethoven 6


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## elgar's ghost

I find Ernst Krenek's debut symphony interesting - it's about 30 minutes long and comprises of nine movements without a break. Because of its lay-out I can't help comparing it to Sibelius's 7th, especially bearing in mind that Krenek's pre-dates the gestation of Sibelius's 7th by a couple of years. Maybe the ambitious but inexperienced Krenek was trying to be too clever - certain similarities apart, the mature Sibelius work dwarfs it in virtually every respect. It has been suggested that Krenek may have had the structure of Beethoven's op 131 string quartet in mind.


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## Mahlerian

Weston said:


> I am with Ramako on this. Four is the right number of movements for a symphony. I wouldn't want to restrict composers, but I think sometimes they just write works and call them symphonies for lack of a better word. Three becomes more like an elaborate baroque concerto grosso, but I can still conceive of a symphony with three movements. Two is just a couple of linked ideas written roughly the same place and time. Five and you suddenly have a suite. These days I think we should abandon the word if we're going to deviate so far from the form. We should just give the works descriptive names and be done with it.


This is nonsense. Are you saying that Beethoven's Pastoral is a suite? A suite is written in a completely different manner from a symphony. Suites are generally comprised of short, possibly non-developing movements of a light character. A symphony is a developmental work, usually with a first movement in sonata form or a variation thereon.

Mahler's 2nd symphony, in 5 movements, has a first movement in sonata form and a developmental character throughout.
Mahler's 8th symphony, in 2 movements, has a first movement in sonata form and a developmental character throughout.

They are symphonies.

Length also has nothing to do with it. There are some classical era symphonies that don't even last 10 minutes, but they still have a developmental character and a first movement in sonata form.


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## Novelette

Also Schumann's 4th in D Minor, the revised version. The first version was in the four movement format and commanded a smaller orchestra. The revised version heavily altered the existing movements, added another, and nearly doubled the number of instruments called for.

Mendelssohn's Second Symphony "Lobgesang" had many movements: everywhere I look, a different number of movements is declared: 14, 13, 12, 11, 10... I'll say 12 movements, according to my own reading of the score.


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## maestro267

One I've discovered recently:

Penderecki's Symphony No. 7 (Seven Gates of Jerusalem) has, you guessed it, 7 movements.

As for Mendelssohn 2, I personally think of it as being in 4 movements; the three instrumental movements and a massive 40-minute choral finale.


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## MJongo

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Messiaen's Turangalila-symphonie, with 10 movements.


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## pelt

Mahler 7
Sibelius 5


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## Mark Emanuele

Andreas said:


> Barber 2
> Beethoven 6
> Górecki 2 and 3
> Hindemith, Mathis der Maler
> Honegger 2
> Hovhaness 1, 22 and 50
> Nielsen 5
> Sibelius 5


I just recorded Mathis Der Maler in the studio with The Omega Radio Symphony Orchestra.


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## Haydn70

Haydn symphonies with three movements: 1,2,4,9,10,12,16,17,18,19,25,26,27,30


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## DavidA

Beethoven 6 of course


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## Strange Magic

Prokofiev 2 and 6.


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## MarkW

"La Mer" (3) is as close to being a symphon as Debussy ever wrote.


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## Orfeo

Pyotr Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. III (five movements)
Albert Roussel: Symphony no. II (three movements)
Paul Creston: Symphony no. II (two movements)
Boris Tchaikovsky: Sevastopol Symphony (one movement)
Andrei Eshpai: Symphony no. IV (one movement)
Antonin Dvorak: Symphony no. III (three movements)
Josef Suk: Asrael Symphony (five movements)
Rued Langgaard: Symphony no. X "Yon Dwelling on Thunder" (one movement)
Kurt Atterberg: Symphonies nos. II, III, V, VI, VII (three movements), IX (one movement)
Peteris Vasks: Symphony no. II (one movement)
Allan Pettersson: Symphonies VII, VIII (one movement)
Eduard Tubin: Symphonies no. I, II, III, V, VI, VII, VIII (three movements), IX (two movements), X (one movement)
Kaljo Raid: Symphonies nos. I (three movements), II (five movements)
Artur Kapp: Symphony no. I (three movements)


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## elgar's ghost

Rued Langgaard - symphony no.11 [_Ixion_]. A one-movement work which weighs in at around six minutes so it seems to me more like a tone poem or overture.


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## starthrower

Lutoslawski no. 4


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## EdwardBast

Miaskovsky's 27 symphonies break down as follows:

One movement: 4
Two movements: 3
Three movements: 11
Four movements: 8
Five movements: 1

Rachmaninoff's Third has 3 movements.

Haydn 60 has 6 movements.


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## philoctetes

Bring out yer dead! (threads, not composers)

Gubaidulina's has 12, as I recall, including one of the 4'33" type. Saw it performed at my last and only visit to Tanglewood, long ago...


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## Art Rock

There must be thousands - rather strange to want to list them all.


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## joen_cph

Hovhaness' _St.Vartan Symphony_ has 24 movements, or, as the composer suggested, 'steps*.


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## techniquest

elgars ghost said:


> Rued Langgaard - symphony no.11 [_Ixion_]. A one-movement work which weighs in at around six minutes so it seems to me more like a tone poem or overture.


That's very true, but what a cracking 6 minutes it is!


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## Orfeo

EdwardBast said:


> Miaskovsky's 27 symphonies break down as follows:
> 
> One movement: 4
> Two movements: 3
> Three movements: 11
> Four movements: 8
> Five movements: 1
> 
> Rachmaninoff's Third has 3 movements.
> 
> Haydn 60 has 6 movements.


You're right. How on Earth did I ever overlook Myaskovsky and Rachmaninoff??


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## MusicSybarite

Havergal Brian's _Gothic_ is in 6 monumental movements.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Messiaen's Turangalîla Symphony has 10 movements, Shostakovich's 14th has 11, Philip Glass's 5th has 12.


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## Schoenberg

Do organ symphonies count?
If so the 5th Widor symphony is a delight.


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## drmdjones

The majority of Mozart's early symphonies are in 3 mvts. He modelled these on the Italian opera overture which goes fast-slow-fast.

Beethoven's 6th is a borderline case. The "4th mvt." which is the thunderstorm part, is not a free-standing mvt., it is harmonically open and really functions as an introduction to the last movement. So, 4 and a half mvts. maybe? Guess that still fits the topic.


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## Swosh

I honestly don't consider a symphony with one movement a symphony haha


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## Judith

Don't think it is a set rule that a symphony has to have four movements like the concerto has to have three movements. What if the composer had sadly passed away before finishing it?


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## cougarjuno

Berwald's no. 2 and no. 3 both in three movements


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## CnC Bartok

cougarjuno said:


> Berwald's no. 2 and no. 3 both in three movements


Well, you say that, but.....

The wonder (music aside!) Of the Sinfonie singuliere Is that is IS in four movements! The Scherzo being sandwiched into the slow middle movement is very clever (in the best sense!).

It's an absolute gem. A masterpiece.

Only mentioned once, I believe, Josef Suk's towering masterpiece, Asrael, is a five-movement piece.


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## flamencosketches

Probably been mentioned, but Mozart's 38th (Prague) and Sibelius' 5th.


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## KenOC

Myaskovsky's 21st, the current entry in the Saturday Symphony series, is in one movement.


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## flamencosketches

Sibelius' 7th is in one movement. Webern's only symphony is 3 movements (and about 10 minutes long in total). Mendelssohn's 2nd symphony has more than 4, I forget how many.


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## EdwardBast

No one seems to have mentioned CPE Bach (JC got a mention years back), all of whose symphonies are in 3 movements, along with many other North German composers of his era.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Judith said:


> Don't think it is a set rule that a symphony has to have four movements like the concerto has to have three movements. What if the composer had sadly passed away before finishing it?


Unfinished symphonies and unfinished concertos can still be pretty cool but, knowing my luck, I'd be the first composer to die writing the Unfinished Bagatelle


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## pokeefe0001

Ramako said:


> However I think 4 is the right number of movements for a symphony.


I'd say the right number of movements is the number specified by the composer.

It can be somewhat arbitrary, anyway. A number of people have already mentioned single-movement symphonies with definite sections without breaks. Would Saint-Saëns's 3rd symphony be somehow better if he'd labeled it as 4 movements with "attacca" between movements 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 rather than 2 movements?


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## Totenfeier

Recall too that Mahler almost went for a seventh movement in #3, but pulled back, and then had to write the 4th to have somewhere to put it.


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## infracave

Does Strauss' Alpine Symphony count ?
It's a tone poem really...


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## flamencosketches

I haven't read the whole thread, but obviously most Mahler symphonies exceed 4 movements (2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8). And then Sibelius has a few with either 3 movements (5 and 3) or just 1 (7).


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## Roger Knox

flamencosketches said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but obviously most Mahler symphonies exceed 4 movements (2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8) ...


Having heard Mahler's 7th at a concert last night, I would say that the 5-movement "arch" structure is very satisfying. With the intense march movement 1, the Nachtstuck movements 2 and 4, and the Mahlerian scherzo-waltz as movement 3, movement 5 then pulls the whole work together brilliantly.


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## MrMeatScience

flamencosketches said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but obviously most Mahler symphonies exceed 4 movements (2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8).


They often get split into a ton of tracks, but the Sixth has only four movements, and the Eighth has only two. Only 2, 3, 5, 7, and 10 go over four, unless you count Das Lied.

There is the original First Symphony with Blumine, though, bringing its total to five movements. Definitely an inferior version of the symphony -- as beautiful as Blumine is, it seriously messes with the flow and momentum of the work.


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## Roger Knox

Roger Knox said:


> ... the Mahlerian scherzo-waltz as movement 3, movement 5 then pulls the whole work together brilliantly.


My error above: the waltz is movement 4.


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## flamencosketches

MrMeatScience said:


> They often get split into a ton of tracks, but the Sixth has only four movements, and the Eighth has only two. Only 2, 3, 5, 7, and 10 go over four, unless you count Das Lied.
> 
> There is the original First Symphony with Blumine, though, bringing its total to five movements. Definitely an inferior version of the symphony -- as beautiful as Blumine is, it seriously messes with the flow and momentum of the work.


10 I thought was just 1 movement, how many are there?

I see now that 6 is only four movements. Not sure what I was thinking with that one. (I haven't heard that symphony).


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## MrMeatScience

There's only one movement of the Tenth that was effectively completed and orchestrated by Mahler, but the entire symphony is 5 movements. The remaining four were in varying states of completion at Mahler's death, but every measure of the work was accounted for in Mahler's score as he left it, so I'm inclined to hear the performing versions of the whole symphony as valid, although they of course aren't entirely Mahler. You're missing out if you just listen to the first movement, wonderful as it is -- some of his most beautiful music is in the others.


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## flamencosketches

Well I haven't heard any of it, but I've seen it included in some cycles as just the Adagio. 

Who has recorded a good completion of it?


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## MrMeatScience

I personally have a preference for Chailly's recording with the Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, or Gielen's with the SWR. I've heard good things about Nezet-Seguin and Dausgaard as well, but can't say from experience.


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