# Thoughts on this striking four seasons performance?



## CarlHaydn284 (Jul 12, 2020)

I love baroque music played in the baroque manner and on baroque instruments. I love the 4 seasons by Vivaldi. I recently came upon this rather striking historical performance of the 4 seasons on YouTube. Some things that the soloists do in these performances really intrigue me. Such as the playing in the first movement of the spring. I think that is the first example of this sort of playing that I can think of. The violinist exaggerates the bird song quality of her playing and it makes for quite a lot of fun.

What do you think about this performance? I know it could be quite controversial.
Do you have any other recommendations for playing such as this and more conservative historical performances of the four seasons?


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

CarlHaydn284 said:


> I love baroque music played in the baroque manner and on baroque instruments. I love the 4 seasons by Vivaldi. I recently came upon this rather striking historical performance of the 4 seasons on YouTube. Some things that the soloists do in these performances really intrigue me. Such as the playing in the first movement of the spring. I think that is the first example of this sort of playing that I can think of. The violinist exaggerates the bird song quality of her playing and it makes for quite a lot of fun.
> 
> What do you think about this performance? I know it could be quite controversial.
> Do you have any other recommendations for playing such as this and more conservative historical performances of the four seasons?


I've heard some really colorful and picturesque playing in these pieces, where the dogs barking really sound like dogs (but in a good way) and this recording strikes me as positively restrained compared to those. A path-breaking and idiosyncratic performance this is *not*; but it is a beautiful performance and I don't mean in any way to denigrate it. Really lovely.

Now I'm going to have to go out find those other recordings so you know what I mean.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Listen to the dogs barking in Nigel Kennedy's version:






And listen to them really bark in Abbado's 4 Seasons:






In Amsterdam's performance they really make the dogs sound like dogs:






I kind of like Parrott's dogs. They sound somewhat in the distance. I like that effect:






I love how Fabio Biondi's dogs bark-sharp, then long.






L'Arte Del Arco's dogs really have something to say:






Listen to the wind rustling in the leaves in Concerto Köln's performance!






And Communita's dogs sharply barking in the background:


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

And, by the way, for a really fun way to start a concerto by Vivaldi, listen to the *huge* liberties Podger takes here:


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## CarlHaydn284 (Jul 12, 2020)

Thank you! I’ll make sure to listen to these.


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## Quaternaria (Sep 21, 2021)

*Il barkio*



vtpoet said:


> I've heard some really colorful and picturesque playing in these pieces, where the dogs barking really sound like dogs (but in a good way) and this recording strikes me as positively restrained compared to those. A path-breaking and idiosyncratic performance this is *not*; but it is a beautiful performance and I don't mean in any way to denigrate it. Really lovely.
> 
> Now I'm going to have to go out find those other recordings so you know what I mean.


The great thing about baroque music is that you can have so many different performances. It's often very difficult to find the right balance.
Should the violas bark, or should there be something that lets the listeners create their own interpretations by listening. That is, should the interpretation be allegorical, and different each time you listen, or is the answer given in advance. These are the aesthetic choices.
There isn't a lot of historical evidence to go on, but there are traces. For example, we know that no one says of this piece "sounded like real dogs". In fact, Vivaldi gives clear directions, but does not actually ask the performers to do this. Contrast this with the VoM performance of the Biber Battalia, where the directions are much more sharply defined. In one, the composer is writing a background, narrative thread, in the the other, it is a display of mimetic techniques. However, in baroque music, the performers are free to reinterpret what is in front of them.
The big difference in this performance is the terracing of textures in the slow movement and the imitation of the traditional Zampogna, a type of rustic bagpipe. So for the "dog" movement, mutes are added to the ripieno violins, so that all three textures--the dog, the susurration and the cantabile solo line, have their own affect. Otherwise, the dog is given undue emphasis--it's not a dog solo. However, other groups go all in on the dog, as is their interpretive right.
In all other recordings, the mutes are used not in the slow movement, but in the third movement, which is in imitation of the zampogna, the traditional bagpipes.
And this is because of a printer's error, an error that has sat for about a hundred years unchallenged, where the instruction for the mutes is placed one line lower. Following this error, which is in all modern editions (and that isn't the only error), the bagpipes are then muted, not the violins in the slow movement, and the textures of the slow movement are then not properly defined. The dog part must be played even louder because the other strings are unmuted.
This video restores the original balance for the first time. Recordings and videos of the zampogna were studied and practiced, which is why the third movement sounds full with the drones and rich overtones.
In the modern world, the data point is whether ppl will want to listen to the dog over and over, or whether the gesture, so clearly expressed, makes the listener say, well, that was cool but now I want to hear something else (which is also good). It's quite possible that the less clearly mimetic interpretation is the one that is returned to year after year.
So here you have a new take on an old piece, based on original research. But there are many really super ones to choose from by excellent performers.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Vivaldi: Four Seasons/Quattro Stagioni - Janine Jansen - Internationaal Kamermuziek Festival
I prefer this playing, but....... the best of all Iona brown on Philips


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Quaternaria said:


> There isn't a lot of historical evidence to go on, but there are traces. For example, we know that no one says of this piece "sounded like real dogs". In fact, Vivaldi gives clear directions, but does not actually ask the performers to do this.


That's actually incorrect. Vivaldi's Concertos are accompanied by sonnets, which may or may not have been written by him, and include specific instructions which _were_ written by him. As Wikipedia states: "In addition to these sonnets, Vivaldi provided instructions such as "The barking dog" (in the second movement of "Spring"), "Languor caused by the heat" (in the first movement of "Summer"), and "the drunkards have fallen asleep" (in the second movement of "Autumn")."

Given that these are clearly programmatic concerti, it seems a bit like moving the goalposts somewhere out into the parking lot to assert that because Vivaldi didn't write "sound like real dogs", the violas aren't meant to sound like, well, _barking dogs_ when that's clearly and obviously the intent. The only question is a matter of degree. That the violas are evoking barking dogs is pretty much part and parcel of writing "programmatic music".

Because I grew up in the country and heard dogs like these throughout my childhood, this slow movement might be one of my favorites in all of music.


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## Quaternaria (Sep 21, 2021)

vtpoet said:


> That's actually incorrect. Vivaldi's Concertos are accompanied by sonnets, which may or may not have been written by him, and include specific instructions which _were_ written by him. As Wikipedia states: "In addition to these sonnets, Vivaldi provided instructions such as "The barking dog" (in the second movement of "Spring"), "Languor caused by the heat" (in the first movement of "Summer"), and "the drunkards have fallen asleep" (in the second movement of "Autumn")."
> 
> Given that these are clearly programmatic concerti, it seems a bit like moving the goalposts somewhere out into the parking lot to assert that because Vivaldi didn't write "sound like real dogs", the violas aren't meant to sound like, well, _barking dogs_ when that's clearly and obviously the intent. The only question is a matter of degree. That the violas are evoking barking dogs is pretty much part and parcel of writing "programmatic music".
> 
> Because I grew up in the country and heard dogs like these throughout my childhood, this slow movement might be one of my favorites in all of music.


"As Wikipedia states" Well, sadly, Wikipedia is not a primary source and it not a reliable source for baroque music, musicology or performance practice. It's sad, but it's true. It's the worst for baroque music, there's really isn't anything that bad.
Sonnets: "Vivaldi's Concertos are accompanied by sonnets" Well, yes and no. There are two primary sources, Manchester and Amsterdam, and Manchester is the most complete and accurate. But, there are no Sonnets in Manchester, just the framework. So, in fact, the Sonnets are disconnected from the work in the main primary source. Vivaldi himself always says that the Sonnets are "based" (sopra) on the Four Seasons, not the other way 'round or simultaneous. He probably arranged to include them as an afterthought for a wider market. That's why he published in Amsterdam, not Italy, he wanted an international audience. Vivaldi himself specifically describes the Sonnets as "illustrations," and this makes perfect sense, just like illustrations in a book that may even be added later, but the book or play can be read or acted without.
Instructions: the descriptive text is not an instruction. Vivaldi does in fact give a separate set of instructions (such as "Il cembalo arpeggio"). Vivaldi is very clear about what is an instruction, these are short and to the point. The descriptive text is simply a program; Wikipedia invented the part about instructions. One can interpret it as instructions, but that's not coming from Vivaldi.
Goalposts: the question here is single vs multiple interpretations. You interpret (it seems) the dogs barking as linear, progressing from the print to an actual mimetic instruction. Which is fine, even brilliant or creative, and many performers do. But there is evidence that this was not always the case in Vivaldi's time. Others may wish to have multiple meanings--these could be for example evocative or transformative. As such, this is not moving the goalposts but widening the goalposts. It can also leave the interpretation to the listener, not the performer.
Another way to look at this is bird songs, which are among the most common of both mimetic and programmatic arias. These bird songs date back to the middle ages, and Vivaldi of course uses birdlike figures in some of his music, as did every composer. There are hundreds of these works.
And, here, if one really wanted to sound exactly like a bird in a Handel aria, chirp instead of sing, or imitate the whole range of bird noises, one could do so, but it would sound very strange. Strange enough, that I have never heard it done that way. But one could. 
Even Vivaldi would have been surprised to see how many people enjoy all the different versions of his music.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

vtpoet said:


> Listen to the dogs barking in Nigel Kennedy's version:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found some of the recordings, especially the Koln recording with Sato, overimprovised.


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