# Are you a professional musician?



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Hello TC Community,

I am curious on whether you are professional musicians. After joining TC for a week, I feel like people here are mainly non-professional classical audiences and I rarely see any professional musician speaking here. That is not a bad thing, though--I know that many professional musicians don't even love classical music as we do, and listening to music from the perspective of audiences is more enjoyable than listening from a musician's perspective. So, please vote!

KevinW


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

There are quite a number of professional musicians on the board....
I've been a professional bassoonist, 50+ years....


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## JTS (Sep 26, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> There are quite a number of professional musicians on the board....
> I've been a professional bassoonist, 50+ years....


And you haven't run out of puff?


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

I've been paid small fees for a few live performances. Technically, that makes me a professional.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

progmatist said:


> I've been paid small fees for a few live performances. Technically, that makes me a professional.


Well, in that case . . . Although the times I played with the local community symphony back in the day, every time it came time for a check, the concertmaster would rise up and generously donate our pay back to the symphony. 

My dance bands always paid better.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

JTS said:


> And you haven't run out of puff?


Haha!! NEVER!! :lol::tiphat:


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Manxfeeder said:


> Well, in that case . . . Although the times I played with the local community symphony back in the day, every time it came time for a check, the concertmaster would rise up and generously donate our pay back to the symphony.
> 
> My dance bands always paid better.


That is sad. But in many cases, it needs generous people to revitalize classical music.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Middle School Band Director for 28 years, published composer of concert band music and string orchestra music since 2011, conductor of our county youth orchestra for three years.

Lots of kiddos to teach.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I voted for two, although I could have voted for three or four.

Yes, I am an instrument player/singer
Yes, I am a conductor/performance director
Yes, I am a composer
Yes, I am a music teacher/other.

My income is fully from music-related services.

*Yes, I am an instrument player/singer*: I play piano, and occasionally play sing as a paid soloist at a local church. I've sung in shows, bands, and in recordings.

*Yes, I am a conductor/performance director*: I just musical-directed and conducted another couple of shows recently. The last was for ALL TOGETHER NOW, a revue-type show, which featured a 23-pc. orchestra, which I conducted from the piano. Right before that I was MD and pit band (6-pc) conductor for a production of the operetta THE PIRATES OF PENZANCE.

*Yes, I am a composer*: Mainly songwriting, but occasional other stuff on commission.

*Yes, I am a music teacher/other*: I accompany the choirs at a couple of local schools for the local school district as a "Music Specialist IV", and occasionally end up unofficially teaching classes.

I accompanied my first musical (for pay) back in Summer 1972, when I was barely a teen, so I'm coming up on *50 years of being a professional musician.*


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I do not make a living from being a musician, but since I do get paid, that makes it professional - although some groups I play with sound like anything but professionals...

I was trained on percussion and did that for many years and continue to play ocassionally - no drum set stuff, just concert percussion (the whole lot). Around 20 years ago I decided to upgrade my skills - and I was getting bored "hitting things to make music" - that's what I said at the time. So I went out and bought a bassoon, got a teacher and within a relatively short time was getting gigs all over. Buying a contrabassoon significantly increased playing opportunity.

I do some conducting, but don't really seek out gigs; usually someone asks me if I'm available and then if the gig appeals, I'll do it. I've conducted symphony concerts, pops concerts, church gigs, ballet, musicals, opera. 

I am not a composer - no I didn't click that choice. But I do some arranging, especially when I'm conducting a pops concert and need something. I have nothing original to say musically, so why compose? Why spend hundreds of hours writing a piece of music that will likely be given its first performance and final performance at the same time? Who wants to be a bad Beethoven?


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

While at music school I played in two regional orchestras, mallet percussion, i.e. timpani, and xylophone, marimba, vibraphone, etc. but I never pursued a career in Classical music. I made my living playing upright bass in Jazz groups (Dallas and NYC) and then moved to Nashville as a professional songwriter.

While one never really retires from a career in music, I have moved about 80 miles outside Nashville to a sparsely populated rural area and am happily ensconced in my cabin on a hill and continue to write and pursue the craft.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> I do not make a living from being a musician


No one does.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

No. I play the piano and learning cello, but as an amateur.


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## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Olias said:


> Middle School Band Director for 28 years, published composer of concert band music and string orchestra music since 2011, conductor of our county youth orchestra for three years.
> 
> Lots of kiddos to teach.


Kudos! :tiphat:


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I have played paying gigs before, but am currently not making anything from music. I think folks that aren't pompous and are musicians can offer a unique perspective to the conversation.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Olias said:


> No one does.


..except for those of us that do and did Olias... Precarious at times, perhaps, but immensely rewarding.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> ..except for those of us that do and did Olias... Precarious at times, perhaps, but immensely rewarding.


I managed it....but you know very well I'm sure, that the free-lance world takes some real persistence and tenacity....It's boom or bust $$-wise....At first, you grab every gig you can get...as you become established, you can begin to cull them out - keep the best paying, steady gigs, that are enjoyable - discard the low $$, poor groups or jackass conductors, etc....

I was lucky to have a a number regular orchestra jobs over many years, and this always led to many side jobs and referrals...I also did a lot of contracting, personnel managing, and concert production of my own chamber group. The music world is very cutthroat, for sure....lots of musicians, not too many good jobs...
Concert production is not for the faint of heart!! so many things....I loved most of it - tho, raising $$ was a PITA, and sending out publicity notices and advertising was never a favorite either...but I was able to get help with these...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I am not a musician, professional or not. I did manage a few years of piano when young, but I have not continued since then. I am glad to have 3 professional classical musicians in my family - wife plays violin and taught (now retired), daughter plays cello and teaches, and my brother-in-law plays piano.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

mmsbls said:


> I am not a musician, professional or not. I did manage a few years of piano when young, but I have not continued since then. I am glad to have 3 professional classical musicians in my family - wife plays violin and taught (now retired), daughter plays cello and teaches, and my brother-in-law plays piano.


Well mmsbls you need to get back to that piano, man. Seriously. If you're able.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

As most of you know, I'm sure, the professional music world is a really tough environment...there are way more musicians than there are good jobs...Generally, the classical, or "concert" musicians have it a little easier than the rock, pop, commercial ones....
nonetheless, it can get pretty cutthroat at times.
One thing I learned early on - always treat your musicians, your sidemen, well; take care of them, treat them with respect, and make sure they get paid fairly....

The industry standard is that for a one time gig, a single-shot - musicians are paid on the spot...it's not a payroll type situation, where they get paid at the end of the week or the end of the pay period, whatever....cash/check on the barrel...

I remember playing a wedding that a guy had booked - big deal - string 4tet, WW 5tet, harp, piano, vocalist - this was at a big, fancy resort club on Cape Cod - it must have cost way up in the 100s of 1000s for the whole deal [in the early '80s]....the music budget alone must have been huge...
So we play the gig, and nobody gets paid!! The family didn't pay him on the day of performance, and he had no way to pay all of his many sidemen/women....<<I'll mail you a check>> bullsh*t!! I went nuts on the guy, really read him out...that's not the way you do it...he finally, begrudgingly, paid me out of his pocket, very angry, whining and griping bitterly that I was being such a hard*ss....it was definitely a parting of the ways for us, both professionally and personally...I found out later, the other musicians didn't get paid for 7 weeks!! this contractor had to chase after the customers for the $$, numerous phone calls, threatened legal action, etc, etc...

I made up my mind right there - that whenever I booked a gig [I booked tons of them] I would always have enough $$ in the till to pay all my sidemen on the day of performance...no matter what, they would get paid for the gig on the day...if the customer stiffed me, left early, the check bounced, whatever, my guys still got paid...the issue would be between me, the contractor, and the customer. My people did the job, they're going home with a paycheck....I raised, generated enough $$ to cover all my gigs before they occurred. I also was careful with the booking arrangements - signed contracts, deposit up-front, job details agreed upon beforehand...I was fortunate, I never got stiffed, never really had a bad time with that aspect of a job....

It paid off big-time for me....word gets around - musicians knew that if they played a gig for me, they were getting paid well, that day...over the years, I built up a very fine, loyal group of musicians I could count on....treat your people right, they will stick with you.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I was expecting something like "I won't pay - the exposure you're getting should suffice".

I'm surprised that so far over 80% have replied 'no' (including me - a few years organ lessons, long forgotten). From the depth (in my limited view) of some of the discussions here I had expected more people to be professional.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

deleted....duplicate....deleted....duplicate...duplicate.....whatever.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Heck148, I remember doing recording sessions where the players were handed a cheque on the way out of the studio (and then mostly spent in the boozer immediately after.. ). Life was simpler then. When computers came on the scene in media work, live work became less frequent and production companies got a lot meaner and duplicitous. I remember my dear friend who always fixed for me, having to pay out of his own account and then hassle companies for monies - sometimes he had to wait around 6 months for payment.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> Heck148, I remember doing recording sessions where the players were handed a cheque on the way out of the studio (and then mostly spent in the boozer immediately after.. ). Life was simpler then. When computers came on the scene in media work, live work became less frequent and production companies got a lot meaner and duplicitous. I remember my dear friend who always fixed for me, having to pay out of his own account and then hassle companies for monies - sometimes he had to wait around 6 months for payment.


Yes, I did a lot of that one-shot-buyout recording stuff....really junky crap, commercial stuff....I was lucky, I always got paid, but I know some of the producers were pretty shady, real "fly by night", "hand to mouth" operations...

It was fun, and generally really easy - I couldn't believe somebody would actually pay me to record this drivel - most of it was commercial, industrial stuff - company videos for employee/trainees, travelogue sound tracks, elevator muzak, watered down arrangements of popular songs, etc....


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

No I'm not, but I have nothing but admiration and respect for those who choose to go down this path.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

There was an oft repeated joke on the Phoenix Craig's List musicians section: a musician is someone who packs $5000 worth of equipment into a $1000 junk car, to travel 50 miles, to make $25 playing a gig.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

In classical music, it's mainly brass players who might have professional instruments worth only $5000. If I'm playing a bassoon gig including doubling on contrabassoon, I'm traveling with around $70,000 worth of equipment. But I have a better car, probably $10,000. But the gig might be only $4-500.

Yeah. I need around 150 gigs like that to break even on the bassoon, contrabassoon, and car.

And that's $4-500 for a reasonably good, professional, per-service American orchestra, one with a decent regional reputation. Some are better, depending on where you are; it could be $800 for a gig. But many are much worse, maybe $300. That's for 3-4 rehearsals plus the concert.

As for full-time orchestras, for every open position when there's an audition, we have to pay our own way, including hotel and all expenses, and there will be 200 other people there for the same audition. Many still don't pay a middle-class salary for the city they're in.

Even for the "smaller" orchestras (but which can be just as stressful and demanding), you'll see people there who traveled across the continent, and still 30 or more players might show up for it, many capable of playing at the highest level. This for a gig that'll pay $5000 a year. I'm not kidding. 

And people wonder whether classical music is dying.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Thankfully not, based on the above post.

Q: What’s the difference between a musician and a pizza?
A. A pizza can feed a family of four.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> I was expecting something like "I won't pay - the exposure you're getting should suffice".


the annoying bs that is probably most offensive to professional musicians - the "exposure" crap - 
my standard reply - "I've got an attic full of exposure, but I can't buy any groceries with it...this is the price...!!"


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Heck148 said:


> Yes, I did a lot of that one-shot-buyout recording stuff....really junky crap, commercial stuff....I was lucky, I always got paid, but I know some of the producers were pretty shady, real "fly by night", "hand to mouth" operations...
> 
> It was fun, and generally really easy - I couldn't believe somebody would actually pay me to record this drivel - most of it was commercial, industrial stuff - company videos for employee/trainees, travelogue sound tracks, elevator muzak, watered down arrangements of popular songs, etc....


TBH Heck, I couldn't believe I got paid good money to write some of that drivel. At times it really was easy money...just not always...


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I've been incredibly fortunate in my trajectory – am studying, but am gradually building up a stream of commissions (I'm a composer). It hasn't been easy, and it's taken me a long time to get to this point, but I'm pretty happy with how things are shaping up. There's a chance that I'll do some teaching, but with how things are, I'm hoping to be able to make composing my main source of income soon, and that will hopefully be the case by the time I finish studying (still a couple of years to go).


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

^^^I was fortunate enough to make a full time living from composing. Do you intend to go into media or are you intent on a concert hall career or other?


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> the annoying bs that is probably most offensive to professional musicians - the "exposure" crap -
> my standard reply - "I've got an attic full of exposure, but I can't buy any groceries with it...this is the price...!!"


Oh don't get me started on this! Also, exploitative calls for scores with a hefty fee... which you demand you write a new piece (and have to pay to submit it, to MAYBE have a chance to get it heard).


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> ^^^I was fortunate enough to make a living from composing. Do you intend to go into media or are you intent on a concert hall career or other?


Hoping for a concert hall career! As of now, I'm doing decently well and have had some performances with really good orchestras. Covid's made getting future bookings with large ensembles more difficult, but I'm talking to some ensembles and am sorting things out. In the meantime, I've got some plans for smaller-scale pieces, and those are coming along well.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

What sort of experience do you have, mikeh375? Nice to meet you!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

post some for us to listen to in the Composer's Today forum. There's a few pros here.
See my website link...


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> post some for us to listen to in the Composer's Today forum. There's a few pros here.
> See my website link...


I'll have a look for your website link! Looking forward to listening


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

no need to look, it's my signature under every post...


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

I'm not seeing it for some reason. Could be that I'm a new member and don't have access to everything yet? Idk

Update: yes, I think it's because I'm a new member. I opened the page up on a different browser (where I'm not logged in) and was able to see it. Thanks!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

composingmusic said:


> I'm not seeing it for some reason. Could be that I'm a new member and don't have access to everything yet? Idk


Nice to have another composer onboard so welcome. Here's a link.......

www.mikehewer.com


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

composingmusic said:


> I'm not seeing it for some reason. Could be that I'm a new member and don't have access to everything yet? Idk


Possible. Could also be you have it switched off in your settings. Please check Settings -> General Settings, go to Thread Display Options, and check whether the "Show signatures" is on or off.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Thanks, both Art Rock and mikeh! Nice combination of influences there, Mike – Dutilleux, Britten, and Tippett! I'll second Dutilleux – it's really hard to pinpoint a list of influences, but a few people who have been influential to me in various ways would be Messiaen, Grisey, Saariaho, Fagerlund, also Dutilleux, Ligeti, Benjamin, Knussen, Carter (and there's a long list beyond this).


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> TBH Heck, I couldn't believe I got paid good money to write some of that drivel. At times it really was easy money...just not always...


In the music business, easy $$ is ok!! never mind the quality, just cash the check!!


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> Nice to have another composer onboard so welcome. Here's a link.......
> 
> www.mikehewer.com


Also, thanks for sharing this! I enjoyed listening to the violin and piano sonata.


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