# The TC Early Music Listening Group - Selection Thread



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The *TC Early Music Listening Group* is forming for the purpose of selecting works from the years *1100-1700* and then slowly, one work per week, doing an immersive exploration and discussion of those works.

The idea is for each participant to nominate TWO works from this time frame which they are passionate about or which they believe would be significant works for this group to discuss (if you only want to nominate one, that's cool too). This thread will be used for that selection process. Once the selection desk has been open for 1-2 weeks (we'll have to play it by ear to see how many participants we have), we will decide on a weekly order of works to listen to, then the group will officially start and we'll be underway with our discussions! Ideally I would love to see at least 8-10 members participating, give or take some. There is no maximum cap on the number of participants. If you want to participate in the group but do not wish to nominate, that's perfectly fine! If this is what you're learning towards, please just pop in on this thread and let me know your intent so we can have a more accurate headcount of who's participating

*Why Early Music?*
Early music is commonly defined as all music in the Western classical tradition that was composed before the Baroque period in either the Middle Ages or the Renaissance. This is a field of music that I love listening to and studying, but which I am somewhat overwhelmed by and wish to know more about. It is also an area that does not seem to garner too much widespread appreciation or interest among classical fans. Oftentimes pre-Baroque music is seen as esoteric and archaic with little to appreciate for the contemporary listener. This group is for all music enthusiasts who either consider themselves knowledgeable fans of early music, or, like me, who are interested and want to know more about early music. I hope that this group can integrate historical background, casual musical discussion, and sharing of opinions so we can all join in to learn as much as we can about this fascinating but often-neglected area of music history.

Let me know if you have any questions or concerns about the group, the submission procedure, etc. I'm expecting certain details and guidelines to clarify as we get a clearer picture of the scope of this group and who will be participating in it, but for now let's begin with the nominations and see where things go I will be turning in my two nominations within the next couple of days.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Thank you, ACB, for initiating this listening group and for moderating!

If the cut-off date is 1600, it seems we're talking about Medieval and Renaissance music? Certainly not J.S. Bach (1685-1750) or Telemann (1681-1767). This is fine, but to be clear, it excludes Baroque music, which by some reckoning belongs to "early music."

For this really early stuff, let me propose (along with example recordings):

Praetorius, Michael (c. 1571-1621) Dances from Terpsichore. Pickett/New London Consort, 1985, L'Oiseau-Lyre
Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475) Missa de la mapa mundi. Hillier/His Majestie's Clerkes, 1991, Harmonia Mundi

If even Praetorius is too late, then I'd sub in William Byrd (1540-1623) who has a lot of short harpsichord and ensemble works that are pretty widely available.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Walther: Under den linden (_c_ 1200) ← gorgeous melody
Gautier: Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame (_c_ 1218-25) ← fascinating settings of popular songs of the day (imagine if a so-called "serious" composer did that today!)

I've actually been working on a listening guide for medieval music that is similar to Trout's contemporary music list, so this is very timely. I'll share that in a few days if anyone is interested.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Simplicissimus said:


> Thank you, ACB, for initiating this listening group and for moderating!
> 
> If the cut-off date is 1600, it seems we're talking about Medieval and Renaissance music? Certainly not J.S. Bach (1685-1750) or Telemann (1681-1767). This is fine, but to be clear, it excludes Baroque music, which by some reckoning belongs to "early music."
> 
> ...


The cutoff date is actually something that I'm still mulling over. I thought 1600 would be a pretty agreed-upon end date to the Renaissance period, but then I remembered Monteverdi and Gesualdo who mostly wrote in the first couple decades of the 17th century - composers who might be quite valuable to this group. Then there are more "transition" composers like Buxtehude, Byrd, Charpentier, Couperin who might be worth exploring. You know what, the more I think about it we should extend the cutoff to 1700. That way we have no danger of intruding on the territory of full-on Baroquers like Bach, Handel, Telemann and Vivaldi; and still have lots of great music to explore. On the last page of this thread is a chronological list of the TC Most Recommended Pre-1700 Works. I think it would be a shame to leave out the last hundred years of that timeframe, which I still think is generally underappreciated.

*The cutoff has now been extended to 1700.*


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## BlackAdderLXX (Apr 18, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> If you want to participate in the group but do not wish to nominate, that's perfectly fine! If this is what you're learning towards, please just pop in on this thread and let me know your intent so we can have a more accurate headcount of who's participating


I'm interested in this group and would be interested to learn more about early music but as I'm not very knowledgeable I'll probably just lurk and listen (like I do in the SQ thread). I'm glad you settled on a topic and I think the format is excellent. Best wishes.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Well, we may have already come across a hitch in the plan since the percentage of members here who are knowledgeable enough about early music to nominate seems to be relatively small. I honestly feel the same way, which is exactly why I wanted to participate in a group! I almost feel that, if after a couple more days, nominations are slim, we can just work our way through the TC Most Recommended Pre-1700 Works (about halfway down the second page on that link) with some guidance from the knowledgeable niche aficionados here. Off the top of my head I recall the members Science, Mandryka, and caracalla having lots of great expertise to contribute towards early music, but it's totally their initiative as to whether they want to participate or not.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The cutoff date is actually something that I'm still mulling over. I thought 1600 would be a pretty agreed-upon end date to the Renaissance period, but then I remembered Monteverdi and Gesualdo who mostly wrote in the first couple decades of the 17th century - composers who might be quite valuable to this group. Then there are more "transition" composers like Buxtehude, Byrd, Charpentier, Couperin who might be worth exploring. You know what, the more I think about it we should extend the cutoff to 1700. That way we have no danger of intruding on the territory of full-on Baroquers like Bach, Handel, Telemann and Vivaldi; and still have lots of great music to explore. On the last page of this thread is a chronological list of the TC Most Recommended Pre-1700 Works. I think it would be a shame to leave out the last hundred years of that timeframe, which I still think is generally underappreciated.
> 
> *The cutoff has now been extended to 1700.*


Very good!

.....


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, we may have already come across a hitch in the plan since the percentage of members here who are knowledgeable enough about early music to nominate seems to be relatively small. I honestly feel the same way, which is exactly why I wanted to participate in a group! I almost feel that, if after a couple more days, nominations are slim, we can just work our way through the TC Most Recommended Pre-1700 Works (about halfway down the second page on that link) with some guidance from the knowledgeable niche aficionados here. Off the top of my head I recall the members Science, Mandryka, and caracalla having lots of great expertise to contribute towards early music, but it's totally their initiative as to whether they want to participate or not.


I think it would be fine to let us nominate works. I think a lot of us have learned more about early music than we knew when that list was made.

Unfortunately, I can't be counted on to participate regularly. I don't even have time to do a good job of keeping up with the TC recommendations project.... But I support this project and hope it goes well!

Fortunately, Trout, pjang23, Bulldog, mmsbls, Nereffid, Highwayman, and quite a few others know as much or more about "early" music as I do.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Monteverdi Missa in illo temporae

Machaut Puis Qu'en Oubli


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

If nominations are being accepted, I will nominate:

Dufay: Nuper rosarum flores -- Dufay's most famous work, and perhaps the most famous isorhythmic motet

Dufay: Missa Ecce ancilla Domini -- a little off the beaten path but one of Dufay's greatest works, and a fine example of a cantus firmus mass


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Well, we may have already come across a hitch in the plan since the percentage of members here who are knowledgeable enough about early music to nominate seems to be relatively small. I honestly feel the same way, which is exactly why I wanted to participate in a group! I almost feel that, if after a couple more days, nominations are slim, we can just work our way through the TC Most Recommended Pre-1700 Works (about halfway down the second page on that link) with some guidance from the knowledgeable niche aficionados here. Off the top of my head I recall the members Science, Mandryka, and caracalla having lots of great expertise to contribute towards early music, but it's totally their initiative as to whether they want to participate or not.


We could always do a hybrid selection process. People who want to nominate can do so and then to fill in the gaps we start working through the TC list. We could still assign people to each week, then they could do a little leg work before hand to introduce the work and maybe give a touch of historical background.

Also, as I'm looking at Early Music albums, it seems many works are very short, so recommending a standard length album in it's entirety might be a good option to make available.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Josquin de Prez, Missa Pange lingua <-- because it's awesome
Claudio Monteverdi, Madrigals Book VIII <-- more awesomemess


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *The cutoff has now been extended to 1700.*


Very bad idea - you've got a period which includes Abelard at one end and Georg Muffat at the other - it's a nonsense.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I don't think the Baroque ought to be included. Early music, for me (and it is one of my most favorite periods) would extend from the chant period to the late Renaissance. I'd suggest that Palestrina to be the last composer, chronologically, included.

I may have missed it, but if it hasn't already been suggested, my nomination is: *Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame*

Also to consider, which cover more than one composer or anonymous:
*Gregorian Chant
Music of the Trouveres & Troubadours*


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Making it too wide might indeed be counterproductive. Another cut-off point might be to limit it to composers born before 1550. That would give us at the end not only Palestrina, but also Lassus, Byrd, and Victoria, while disqualifying the likes of Monteverdi and Gibbons.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Very bad idea - you've got a period which includes Abelard at one end and Georg Muffat at the other - it's a nonsense.


I tend to agree. Burkholder's "History of Western Music" (the only overview I own) defines Baroque as running from 1600-1750. I don't consider Baroque to be Early Music.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

> Very bad idea - you've got a period which includes Abelard at one end and Georg Muffat at the other - it's a nonsense.





> I don't think the Baroque ought to be included. Early music, for me (and it is one of my most favorite periods) would extend from the chant period to the late Renaissance. I'd suggest that Palestrina to be the last composer, chronologically, included.





> Making it too wide might indeed be counterproductive. Another cut-off point might be to limit it to composers born before 1550. That would give us at the end not only Palestrina, but also Lassus, Byrd, and Victoria, while disqualifying the likes of Monteverdi and Gibbons.





> I tend to agree. Burkholder's "History of Western Music" (the only overview I own) defines Baroque as running from 1600-1750. I don't consider Baroque to be Early Music.


Well, shucks. I guess this is what happens when someone who doesn't know very much about early music tries to run an early music thread:lol:

I always considered the likes of Monteverdi, Gesualdo and other "transition figures" to be early music but it appears many do not and have no desire to include them in this group. Of the suggestions above I like Art Rock's best - limiting it to composers born before 1550. As mentioned that would still give us important composers like Palestrina and Byrd. Sorry for the fluctuations on this, folks; I should have consulted others before deciding on the dates!

*Hopefully for the last time - the cutoff has been changed to composers born before 1550. Please let me know if you have any further concerns about this cutoff.*


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Nominations:

Byrd (1540-1623) - Mass for Four Voices (1593)
Victoria (1548-1611) - Officium Defunctorum (1603)

I think these are generally seen as highlights, I'll leave more obscure masterpieces to the connoisseurs.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Realizing now that my pretty extensive collection of "early music" is actually transitional or early Baroque... which knocks out almost all of my Frans Brueggen, Gustav Leonhardt, and the other "early music" rock stars. But that's OK. For composers born before 1550, I have in my collection and am familiar with the music of only a few, which I might as well list completely:

William Byrd (c. 1540-1623), mostly harpsichord
Johannes Cornago (c. 1400-after 1475), Missa de la mapa mundi
Guillaume de Machaut (c. 1300-1377), Messe Notre Dame (but this has been discussed extensively in its own thread)
Anthony Holborne (c. 1545-1602), lute and emsemble music
John Taverner (c. 1490-1545), ensemble
Christopher Tye (c. 1505-1572), ensemble


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Nominations:

Johannes Symonis Hasprois - Puisque je suis Fumeux 
Solage - Fumeux Fume par Fumée 

I'm not particularly knowledgeable on Early Music but I think my nominations are smokin'!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Nominations so far:

Byrd, William - Mass for Four Voices (1593) [Art Rock]
Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475) - Missa de la mapa mundi [Simplicissimus]
Dufay, Guillaume (1397-1474) - Nuper rosarum flores [science]
Dufay, Guillaume - Missa Ecca ancilla Domini [science]
Hasprois, Johannes Symonis (died 1428) - Puisque je suis Fumeux [Highwayman]
Gautier, Léonard - Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame (c 1218-25) [Portamento]
Josquin Des Prez - Missa pange lingua (c. 1515) [Knorf]
Machaut, Guillaume (c. 1300-1377) - Messe de Nostre Dame [SanAntone]
Machaut, Guillaume - Puis Qu'en Oubli [ORigel]
Solage (late 1300s) - Fumeux Fume par Fumée [Highwayman]
Victoria, Tomás Luis - Officium Defunctorum (Requiem of 1603) [Art Rock]
Walther von der Vogelwelde: Under den linden (c. 1200) [Portamento]

_To consider, miscellaneous anonymous works - Gregorian Chant and Music of the Trouveres & Troubadours_ (thanks to SanAntone for bringing these to our attention)

*Simpliccismus, ORigel, and Knorf* - one each of your nominations was disqualified by the new cutoff. Would you like to nominate another work? It's totally up to you

*Two pressing questions on how the group will go*:
1. Will we listen chronologically? If not, then the second question is relevant...
2. 20centrfuge brings up a great point in that many of these works are very short - 5 minutes or less (while we do have some longer ones). Should we pair up a single person's nominations every week, or mix and match two from two different nominators? I like what the 1980-2000 group does with spreading out each person's two nominations throughout the process, but we're dealing with a very different kind of music here. Then again we could just stick with one work per week regardless of size to keep things consistent. Any feedback would be welcome!


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Can I be in too with two?

Lassus-Lagrime di San Pietro
Dowland-Lachrimae or Seven Tears


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Nominations so far:
> 
> Byrd, William - Mass for Four Voices (1593) [Art Rock]
> Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475) - Missa de la mapa mundi [Simplicissimus]
> ...


Thanks, ACB! I can nominate John Taverner's "Western Wynde Mass." That's a reasonably available work from c. 1530.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Can I be in too with two?
> 
> Lassus-Lagrime di San Pietro
> Dowland-Lachrimae or Seven Tears


Unfortunately Dowland misses the cutoff by 13 years (I know, it's confusing, I can't edit the OP anymore but we decided that all composers must be born before 1550). Would you like to nominate an alternative?


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Haha...

Ockeghem-Missa Prolationem


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## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

I'll be only too happy to partcipate in this project. If we've already started nominating, I'll kick off with Tallis's 'Spem in alium'. And as Art Rock has already nicked Victoria's 'Officium defunctorum', I'll go with his 'Magnificat primi toni' of 1600 instead.

Both of those are reasonably substantial 10-12 minute pieces that can hold their own. But I agree that 20centrfuge's point wrt relative size is important. On the whole, early composers are very good at packing a great deal of musical interest into 2-4 minutes, but pitting such things against full-scale masses and the like may be asking too much of them. I don't know if it's feasible to treat miniatures as a separate category with their own league table, but the issue needs addressing as they cannot be considered peripheral in these early periods. If we don't, a lot of superb music (including most of the secular stuff) is likely to be at a big disadvantage.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> 2. 20centrfuge brings up a great point in that many of these works are very short - 5 minutes or less (while we do have some longer ones). Should we pair up a single person's nominations every week, or mix and match two from two different nominators? I like what the 1980-2000 group does with spreading out each person's two nominations throughout the process, but we're dealing with a very different kind of music here. Then again we could just stick with one work per week regardless of size to keep things consistent. Any feedback would be welcome!


I'm glad 20centrfuge brought this up. At first, I think we should try a week per work regardless of size and see if discussion runs out of steam or not. There is certainly _a lot_ we can talk about if we're really going down the early music rabbit hole.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Selection the second:

Pérotin: Sederunt principes (1199)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's two suggestions from me

1. MS xviii b12 at Musée Condé, interpreted on record by Marcel Peres on the CD _Le Chant des Templiers_.

2. Robert Fayrfax, Missa Tecum Principium

Both of these should be on youtube.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

A lot of really short works ordinarily get put together in various ways (~anthologies and so on), which actually creates an interesting opportunity. We could do longer works in the normal way -- which (I suppose) means that everyone listens to the work... -- but for shorter works we could allow each participant to find that work any way they can, and if they happen to find it as part of some kind of collection, ask them to listen to and comment on a couple of other works in that collection or even the whole collection.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^Science, that’s a great idea. Perhaps, depending on what kinds of works we generally end up with when nominations are done, we could alternate weeks where we listen to one larger work and weeks where we focus on the short works of one composer. People could even nominate albums or compilations of a single composer (available on streaming or YouTube) rather than individual works. I may lean towards this when I finalize my nominations tomorrow. Then again, as Portamento says, there is lots we can dig into even in short works and maybe we should just start with one a week? Just throwing around ideas.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I'd like to participate. Not sure about the nominations yet, but perhaps:

Dufay's "Resvellies vous" and Absalon fili mi by Josquin (or Pierre de la Rue or whomever they now believe wrote it).

I have a pretty good knowledge of some elements of early music, including the history, notation systems, and forms. The born by 1550 date sounds reasonable.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

EdwardBast said:


> I'd like to participate. Not sure about the nominations yet, but perhaps:
> 
> Dufay's "Resvellies vous" and Absalon fili mi by Josquin (or Pierre de la Rue or whomever they now believe wrote it).
> 
> I have a pretty good knowledge of some elements of early music, including the history, notation systems, and forms. The born by 1550 date sounds reasonable.


Great! Science did already nominate two Dufay works, so perhaps you'd like to nominate something else? Should there be a two-work-per-composer limit?


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^Science, that's a great idea. Perhaps, depending on what kinds of works we generally end up with when nominations are done, we could alternate weeks where we listen to one larger work and weeks where we focus on the short works of one composer. People could even nominate albums or compilations of a single composer (available on streaming or YouTube) rather than individual works. I may lean towards this when I finalize my nominations tomorrow. Then again, as Portamento says, there is lots we can dig into even in short works and maybe we should just start with one a week? Just throwing around ideas.


There's no way to know for sure until we start, so let's just go for it.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I plan on participating in this listening group, but since I know Jack-Diddly-Squat about early music I’m not even going to try nominating. I’ll just be a listener and occasional commenter.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Alright, my two nominations are in...

*Dunstable (or Dunstaple), John* (c. 1390-1453) - "Sweet Harmony - Masses and Motets"; Naxos album performed by Tonus Peregrinus








*Brumel, Antoine (c. 1460-1512)* - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass)

Now, I nominated the entire Dunstable album because I wasn't sure which 3-5 minute piece from the album to choose. I figured people could just sample the album (since it is available on streaming, and several tracks are on YouTube) and we could have a general discussion of the composer's style. But if people object to this, I'll try to nominate an individual work or two instead.

As to our listening methodology - *Initially, we will stick with discussing one nomination a week. If this does not generate much discussion, we'll talk about how to proceed from there.* Now we have to figure out whether the listening order will be generated chronologically or arbitrarily. I would be glad to come up with a random order with each person's nominations spaced apart, unless we think it would be beneficial to proceed in a linear fashion. Thoughts?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Here's two suggestions from me
> 
> 1. MS xviii b12 at Musée Condé, interpreted on record by Marcel Peres on the CD _Le Chant des Templiers_.


Could you please clarify what you mean by this work? I found the album you mention on streaming, but do not see any track that looks similar to this.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I would like to participate. I nominate Gombert's eight Magnificats. That's a lot of music so maybe it should be split in two, 1-4 and 5-8.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I would like to participate as well. I've been rather busy lately and have not had time for some of the other listening threads so I may not nominate anything. Is there a deadline for nominations?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

mmsbls said:


> I would like to participate as well. I've been rather busy lately and have not had time for some of the other listening threads so I may not nominate anything. Is there a deadline for nominations?


We'd love to have you! I didn't really set a deadline for nominations but I've been pleasantly surprised at the amount of interest and participation so far, so maybe Monday June 1; exactly a week after nominations began?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Updated list of nominations:

Anonymous - Le Chant des Templiers (Chant of the Templars, 12th century) [Mandryka]
Brumel, Antoine (c. 1460-1512) - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass) [Allegro Con Brio]
Byrd, William (c. 1540-1623) - Mass for Four Voices [Art Rock]
Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475) - Missa de la mapa mundi [Simplicissimus]
Dufay, Guillaume (1397-1474) - Nuper rosarum flores and Missa Ecca ancilla Domini [science]
Dunstable, John (c. 1390-1450) - Selected mass movements and motets [Allegro Con Brio]
Hasprois, Johannes Symonis (died 1428) - Puisque je suis Fumeux [Highwayman]
Fayrfax, Robert (1464-1521) - Missa Tecum Principium [Mandryka]
Gombert, Nicholas (1495-1560) - Magnificats, Nos. 1-4 and 5-8 [isorhythm]
Gautier de Coincy (c. 1177-1236) - Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame [Portamento]
Josquin Des Prez (1455-1521) - Absalom fili mi [EdwardBast]
Josquin Des Prez - Missa pange lingua [Knorf]
Lassus, Orlande (1532-1594) - Lagrime di San Pietro [Kjetil Heggelund]
Machaut, Guillaume (c. 1300-1377) - Messe de Nostre Dame [SanAntone]
Machaut, Guillaume - Puis Qu'en Oubli [ORigel]
Ockeghem, Johannes (1425-1497) - Missa prolationum [Kjetil Heggelund]
Pérotin (died 1200) - Sederunt principes [Knorf]
Solage (late 1300s) - Fumeux Fume par Fumée [Highwayman]
Tallis, Thomas (1505-1585) - Spem in alium [caracalla]
Taverner, John (1490-1545) - Western Wynde Mass [Simplicissimus]
Victoria, Tomás Luis (1548-1611) - Magnificat primi toni [caracalla]
Victoria, Tomás Luis - Officium Defunctorum (Requiem of 1603) [Art Rock]
Walther von der Vogelwelde (c. 1170-1230) - Under den linden [Portamento]

_To consider: Gregorian Chant and Music of the Trouveres & Troubadours_

Wow, guys! We are waiting on confirmation for a couple nominations, but as of right now we have about 25 weeks' worth of nominations if we do one per week. The participation here has far exceeded my expectations, as besides myself we have at least 14 people who have expressed interest in participating regularly! I'm really looking forward to this


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Updated list of nominations:
> 
> Brumel, Antoine (c. 1460-1512) - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass) [Allegro Con Brio]
> Byrd, William (c. 1540-1623) - Mass for Four Voices [Art Rock]
> ...


The Miracles of Notre Dame are by Gautier de Coincy

This list is too much focused on late music. There is hardly any 14th century music or earlier in there. Why didn't you include the Templars recording I suggested?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> The Miracles of Notre Dame are by Gautier de Coincy
> 
> This list is too much focused on late music. There is hardly any 14th century music or earlier in there. Why didn't you include the Templars recording I suggested?


Thanks for the Gautier correction! Sorry, I still needed to clarify which work you wanted, it's the entire work that is on that album, correct? I can't find an approximate date of composition; do you have one? I will add it ASAP. Hopefully a few more people will add some earlier medieval music to round off our list.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Thanks for the Gautier correction! Sorry, I still needed to clarify which work you wanted, it's the entire work that is on that album, correct? I can't find an approximate date of composition; do you have one? I will add it ASAP. Hopefully a few more people will add some earlier medieval music to round off our list.


It's a selection of music from a 12th century manuscript. I think it's OK to listen to the whole thing, it's less time than other things suggested here, like the eight Gombert Magnificats or even the de Coincy songs.

To be honest I feel very enthusiastic about it. I played it last night and I think it really is much more special than I'd remembered. If you just want one thing from me, ditch the Fayrfax -- that's just a bit of renaissance fluff and there's already more than enough of that IMO -- the Templars music is from another planet.

You can see I've gone medieval . . . as Marsellus says in _Pulp Fiction_.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> It's a selection of music from a 12th century manuscript. I think it's OK to listen to the whole thing, it's less time than other things suggested here, like the eight Gombert Magnificats or even the de Coincy songs.
> 
> To be honest I feel very enthusiastic about it. I played it last night and I think it really is much more special than I'd remembered. If you just want one thing from me, ditch the Fayrfax -- that's just a bit of renaissance fluff and there's already more than enough of that IMO -- the Templars music is from another planet.


Can't wait to hear it We'll keep the Fayrfax (unless you want to withdraw it) - each person is allowed two nominations.


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## Shosty (Mar 16, 2020)

I know next to nothing about early music and have listened to very few early compositions, but recently I've listened to some works that have convinced me to explore this fascinating era of music, so I'd love to participate and learn. 

My two nominations if I may:

Anonymous (13th century Spain) - Codex Las Huelgas (I listened to the recording by Huelgas Ensemble lead by Paul Van Nevel only today and absolutely loved it.)

Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) - O Euchari (from a Naxos album performed by Oxford Camerata and lead by Jeremy Summerly which contains several of Hildegard's Hymns, Sequences etc.)


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

As of right now if we do one nomination per week this group will last until December! As Portamento said there's no way of knowing how discussion will go with this format until we actually start, so we'll adjust things from there if we need to.

Now that the nomination board is so full, it's time to start thinking about order of listening. Based on volume of nominations so far I reckon we leave it open until Saturday or so? Then we'll decide on the order and start the official group on Sunday. My current thought process on this - I personally do NOT think that chronological listening is necessary but if anyone would like this to happen just let me know. Also I'd think it'd be ideal if each person's two nominations were spread apart as far as possible in the order. I'll take a look at the board soon and work on coming up with an order. I think we'll probably start with one of my nominations so we can get a taste of how things will flow and not force anyone into the position of "getting the boat rolling."

One thing I do want to pass by everyone - *I'm currently thinking it would be good to do one composer per week*. For example, both caracalla and Art Rock's Victoria nominations would both be listened to in the same week as part of a general composer discussion. *Would this be OK with everyone*? If not, it's not a big deal; just an idea And finally, if anyone has any specific requests re: what place on the schedule they want their nomination to fall into, or any feedback/comments about the listening order, please let me know! I realize that I'm assuming a sort of "leadership role" in this, but I do want to make sure that this group is run in a way that makes everyone happy


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> One thing I do want to pass by everyone - *I'm currently thinking it would be good to do one composer per week*. For example, both caracalla and Art Rock's Victoria nominations would both be listened to in the same week as part of a general composer discussion. *Would this be OK with everyone*? If not, it's not a big deal; just an idea And finally, if anyone has any specific requests re: what place on the schedule they want their nomination to fall into, or any feedback/comments about the listening order, please let me know! I realize that I'm assuming a sort of "leadership role" in this, but I do want to make sure that this group is run in a way that makes everyone happy


Anonymous works will each have their own week, right?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Portamento said:


> Anonymous works will each have their own week, right?


Yes, thanks for clarifying that


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## caracalla (Feb 19, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I realize that I'm assuming a sort of "leadership role" in this, but I do want to make sure that this group is run in a way that makes everyone happy


My tuppence worth:

1) No need to be inhibited about assuming a leadership role. Someone has to do it, and this thread is your baby, so who better? Consultation is great, but in the end it's often best for everyone that a decision just gets made, whatever that is.

2) A chronological approach would risk stranding people for a long time with music they might not care for. I mean, if they can't see any relief for two or three centuries down the track, they might lose heart and drift away. Variety is the spice of life.

Mixing it up wd be my preference, anyway, though I'm happy to leave that (and the listening order generally) entirely up to you.

3) No problem at all with separating individual nominations. No doubt we all have very different tastes, even in the EM field.

4) I thought you'd already kicked off with Dunstab(p)le. Is this not so?

5) One composer a week will help speed things up, and two pieces is hardly overload. As things stand, we're nursing some gaping lacunae such as Palestrina and the whole corpus of Renaissance instrumental/consort music. That's inevitable, I think, but the sooner we get through this initial batch, the sooner we can start plugging the more obvious gaps.

6) As nominations come up, will those responsible get to indicate which recording they had in mind? In some cases, this will matter because we're dealing with variable collections of short pieces. In others, because the available interpretations may differ very markedly - we've already discussed this wrt Machaut's MdND, and that's not at all unusual in EM. Of course, people would also be free to explore other takes, but at least we'd have a starting point in common.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

caracalla said:


> 1) No need to be inhibited about assuming a leadership role. Someone has to do it, and this thread is your baby, so who better? Consultation is great, but in the end it's often best for everyone that a decision just gets made, whatever that is.


Thanks for the encouragement! Yup, I totally agree. I trust that the decisions will all work out, and once we get past this initial phase of figuring things out it will all go smoothly. It's just that I am a normal person with other things to do, and I fear that I may not be able to keep the leadership commitment going down the road. But by then we'll be in a steady pattern and all will be well (hopefully).



> 2) A chronological approach would risk stranding people for a long time with music they might not care for. I mean, if they can't see any relief for two or three centuries down the track, they might lose heart and drift away. Variety is the spice of life. Mixing it up would be my preference, anyway, though I'm happy to leave that (and the listening order generally) entirely up to you.


Yes, exactly my thought process!



> 4) I thought you'd already kicked off with Dunstab(p)le. Is this not so?


I'm planning on officially starting the group with Dunstable on Sunday. I'll work on the listening order through the next couple days and leave nominations open for anyone who wants to fill in those gaps.



> 5) One composer a week will help speed things up, and two pieces is hardly overload. As things stand, we're nursing some gaping lacunae such as Palestrina and the whole corpus of Renaissance instrumental/consort music. That's inevitable, I think, but the sooner we get through this initial batch, the sooner we can start plugging the more obvious gaps.


So if we don't have those big gaps filled in by the time we start, we can just start filling them in? (instrumental music is one that I really think needs to be filled in!) I think that sounds like a good idea, but of course one that won't come into play until we've worked our way through a good chunk of the nominations. But if anyone wants to join up and fill 'em in with the remaining nominating time, please go ahead!



> 6) As nominations come up, will those responsible get to indicate which recording they had in mind? In some cases, this will matter because we're dealing with variable collections of short pieces. In others, because the available interpretations may differ very markedly - we've already discussed this wrt Machaut's MdND, and that's not at all unusual in EM. Of course, people would also be free to explore other takes, but at least we'd have a starting point in common.


Yes, definitely. The nominator will get to choose a recommended recording(s) and explain why they picked it. However, I do want to make sure discussion revolves around the actual music; with the inevitable discussion of performance practice being peripheral to helping everyone appreciate the material at hand

Thanks again for your feedback!


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I generally second all of caracalla's thoughts and want to reemphasize the first one. It's much better to make a decision after getting some input and move on even if the input is varied.

I will raise one possibility that does not need any attention for awhile. Once a set of nominations is fixed and a schedule set, we can start weekly listening. As this group nears the end of the schedule, we collectively may wish to continue with further nominations. The Exploring Contemporary Composers thread project operates this way.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Allegro con brio, this thread is your baby, proceed just as you wish.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Better late than never. I would like to participate too. 

Generally I also find, that there is too little nominated music from before 1400, so I hasten to nominate:

1) Llibre Vermell, an anonymous Spanish manuscript collected about 1400.

2) Johannes Ciconia (ca. 1370 - 1412): Una Panthera (three part madrigal).

Does the nomination include the nomination of a specific recording? Or how is this to be handled?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I'd like to join the discussion. The list that has been assembled so far is pretty impressive and since I don't know a whole lot about early music I'm hoping the TC collective can school me. I also love the focus being on the music!

Thanks to *Allegro Con Brio* for shepherding this thread through.

For my own part when considering what to nominate I note that for many early composers not much is known and scholarly research is scant. With that in mind I want to nominate music from a composer who we do have a lot of information on: Machaut. Since we already have two works by Machaut I'm only going to nominate one more: *Le Remède de Fortune*

I'm looking forward to this thread. Let's have fun!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

premont said:


> Better late than never. I would like to participate too.
> 
> Generally I also find, that there is too little nominated music from before 1400, so I hasten to nominate:
> 
> ...


If you want to nominate a recording (or more than one), please do! However, it's not required at all. We can have casual side discussions about how different performances affect our view of the music, but ultimately it's the music itself that matters.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I too will participate and I nominate

*1) Codex Buranus (by the Clemencic Consort)

2) Codex Faenza (Instrumental Music of the Early 15th Century)*

the Codex Buranus has 3 hours of music and is a collection of many medieval songs from spiritual to secular. If it is too long, then we can select something else


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Anonymous (approx. 12th century) - Codex Buranus (Carmina Burana) [Jacck]
Anonymous (15th century) - Codex Faenza (Codex Bonadies) [Jacck)
Anonymous (approx. 1400, Spain) - Llibre Vermell de Montserrat [premont]
Anonymous (13th century Spain) - Codex Las Huelgas [Shosty]
Anonymous (12th century) - Le Chant des Templiers (Chant of the Templars) [Mandryka]
Brumel, Antoine (c. 1460-1512) - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass) [Allegro Con Brio]
Byrd, William (c. 1540-1623) - Mass for Four Voices [Art Rock]
Ciconia, Johannes (c. 1370-1412) - Una Panthera [premont]
Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475) - Missa de la mapa mundi [Simplicissimus]
Dufay, Guillaume (1397-1474) - Nuper rosarum flores, Missa Ecca ancilla Domini [science]; Resvellies vous [EdwardBast]
Dunstable, John (c. 1390-1450) - Selected mass movements and motets [Allegro Con Brio]
Hasprois, Johannes Symonis (died 1428) - Puisque je suis Fumeux [Highwayman]
Fayrfax, Robert (1464-1521) - Missa Tecum Principium [Mandryka]
Gombert, Nicholas (1495-1560) - Magnificats, Nos. 1-4 and 5-8 [isorhythm]
Gautier de Coincy (c. 1177-1236) - Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame [Portamento]
Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) - O Euchari; other hymns and sequences [Shosty]
Isaac, Heinrich (c. 1450-1517) - Missa Virgo Prudentissima [mmsbls]
Josquin Des Prez (1455-1521) - Absalom fili mi [EdwardBast] and Missa pange lingua [Knorf]
Lassus, Orlande (1532-1594) - Lagrime di San Pietro [Kjetil Heggelund]
Machaut, Guillaume (c. 1300-1377) - Messe de Nostre Dame [SanAntone], Puis Qu'en Oubli [ORigel], and Le Remède de Fortune [Room2201974]
Ockeghem, Johannes (1425-1497) - Missa prolationum [Kjetil Heggelund]
Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi (c. 1525-1594) - Missa Papae Marcelli [mmsbls]
Pérotin (died 1200) - Sederunt principes [Knorf]
Solage (late 1300s) - Fumeux Fume par Fumée [Highwayman]
Tallis, Thomas (1505-1585) - Spem in alium [caracalla]
Taverner, John (1490-1545) - Western Wynde Mass [Simplicissimus]
Victoria, Tomás Luis (1548-1611) - Magnificat primi toni [caracalla] and Officium Defunctorum (Requiem of 1603) [Art Rock]
Walther von der Vogelwelde (c. 1200) - Under den linden [Portamento]

_*To consider*:
Gregorian Chant
Music of the Trouveres & Troubadours
Renaissance Instrumental/Consort Music_

*Nominations will be open for approximately one more day. The order of listening will be revealed tomorrow evening, CST.*


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Hahaha, yeah, someone should have picked Palestrina. 

Imagine having a Classics and early Romantics listening group and no one picks Beethoven.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Jacck said:


> I too will participate and I nominate
> 
> *1) Codex Buranus (by the Clemencic Consort)
> 
> ...


Looks like awesome choices! The length shouldn't be an issue; if you want when it's time to discuss that work, you can point us to some particular highlights to shorten the experience Codex Faenza looks fascinating by the way; keyboard music from the 15th century!


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I'll nominate:

Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
Isaac: Missa Virgo prudentissima


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## sbmonty (Jan 11, 2014)

Exciting thread. I'm looking forward to this, as I"m sure I'll learn a lot. I'll nominate Palestrina: Missa Aeterna Christi Munera and Byrd: Infelix ego.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

I would like to nominate Richard Hygons' sublime antiphon _Salve Regina_ and the anonymous organum _Dum esset Salvator in monte_ from the twelfth century Codex Calixtinus manuscript.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Alright, ladies and gents, nominations are closed. The following is the order of the TC Early Music Listening Group:

05/31-06/07: *Dunstable, John (1390-1450)* - Selected mass movements and motets [Allegro Con Brio]
06/07-06/14: *Tallis, Thomas (1505-1585)* - Spem in alium [caracalla]
06/14-06/21: *Anonymous (12th century) *- Le Chant des Templiers (Chant of the Templars) [Mandryka]
06/21-06/28: *Gombert, Nicholas (1495-1560)* - 8 Magnificats* [isorhythm]
06/28-07/05: *Gautier de Coincy (1177-1236)* - Les Miracles de Nostre-Dame [Portamento]
07/05-07/12: *Palestrina, Giovanni Pierluigi (1525-1594)*: Missa Papae Marcelli [mmsbls] and Missa Aeterna Christi Munera [sbmonty]
07/12-07/19: *Lassus, Orlande (1532-1594)* - Lagrime di San Pietro [Kjetil Heggelund]
07/19-07/26: *Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179)* - O Euchari; other hymns and sequences [Shosty]

07/26-08/02: *Hasprois, Johannes Symonis (died 1428)* - Puisque je suis Fumeux [Highwayman]
08/02-08/09: *Taverner, John (1490-1545)* - Western Wynde Mass [Simplicissimus]
08/09-08/16: *Anonymous (15th century)* - Codex Faenza (Codex Bonadies) [Jacck)
08/16-08/23: *Ciconia, Johannes (1370-1412)* - Una Panthera [premont]
08/23-08/30: *Hygons, Richard (1435-1509)* - Salve regina [RICK RIEKERT]
08/30-09/06: *Byrd, William (1540-1623)* - Infelix ego [sbmonty] and Mass for Four Voices [Art Rock]
09/06-09/13: *Josquin Des Prez (1455-1521)* - Absalom fili mi [EdwardBast] and Missa pange lingua [Knorf]
09/13-09/20: *Machaut, Guillaume (1300-1377)* - Messe de Nostre Dame [SanAntone], Puis Qu'en Oubli [ORigel], and Le Remède de Fortune [Room2201974]

09/20-09/27: *Brumel, Antoine (1460-1512)* - Missa et ecce terrae motus (Earthquake Mass) [Allegro Con Brio]
09/27-10/04: *Dufay, Guillaume (1397-1474)* - Nuper rosarum flores and Missa Ecca ancilla Domini [science]; Resvellies vous [EdwardBast]
10/04-10/11: *Anonymous (13th century Spain) * - Codex Las Huelgas [Shosty]
10/11-10/18: *Isaac, Heinrich (1450-1517) * - Missa Virgo Prudentissima [mmsbls]
10/18-10/25: *Ockeghem, Johannes (1425-1497)* - Missa prolationum [Kjetil Heggelund]
10/25-11/01: *Walther von der Vogelweide (1170-1230)* - Under den linden [Portamento]
11/01-11/08: *Victoria, Tomás Luis (1548-1611)* - Magnificat primi toni [caracalla] and Officium Defunctorum (Requiem of 1603) [Art Rock]

11/08-11/15: *Fayrfax, Robert (1464-1521)* - Missa Tecum Principium [Mandryka]
11/15-11/22: *Anonymous (12th century)* - Dum esset Salvator in monde (from Codex Calixtinus) [RICK RIEKERT]
11/22-11/29: *Solage (late 14th century)* - Fumeux Fume par Fumée [Highwayman]
11/29-12/06: *Anonymous (approx. 12th century)* - Codex Buranus (Carmina Burana) [Jacck]
12/06-12/13: *Cornago, Johannes (c. 1400-after 1475)* - Missa de la mapa mundi [Simplicissimus]
12/13-12/20: *Pérotin (12th century)* - Sederunt principes [Knorf]
12/20-12/27: *Anonymous (approx. 1400, Spain)* - Llibre Vermell de Montserrat [premont]

*To consider:*_
Gregorian Chant
Music of the Trouveres & Troubadours
Renaissance Instrumental/Consort Music_

*Isorhythm, about how long on average are each of the Gombert Magnificats? If they're too long to comfortably listen to in one week, perhaps you'd like to choose 3-4 highlights among them for the group to focus on when we get there?

So there you have it! And I never thought of myself as a long-term planner:lol:

The volume of participants we have is truly mind-blowing. I thought we would be fortunate to have 8-10 people, and we have 20! I'm looking forward to spending the next 7 months (at least!) immersing ourselves in these underappreciated regions of music history, and I'm enthralled to know that we have so many others who are as interested in learning about early music as I am.

If you have ANY questions, concerns, or requests regarding the order above please do not hesitate to contact me and I will do my best to answer them! If you would prefer your appearance in the order to be altered in any way, that can be done without a problem I realize that we all have actual lives beyond the Internet, so I totally understand if you want accommodations to be made, if you can't commit to participating weekly, etc. etc. The order is just a guideline, not set in stone. In fact, it is very likely that the order will be changing at least once as we work through in case we have any other members who want to join or we want to integrate the three categories under "to consider" that are not currently represented. Otherwise, on to the start of the group! The official thread will be going up tomorrow and we will begin this journey with Dunstable. This thread can continue to be used as a place for any discussion about the group itself that would otherwise clutter up the main group thread.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Right now I'm somewhat questioning whether this group was really a good idea. Of the approximately 20 people who submitted nominations or said they would participate, only 5-6 at most are participating. Of course I am TOTALLY sympathetic to the fact that we all have real lives that take precedence over the Internet and I'm not judging anyone! I just think this is such a niche topic that it's hard for people to really join in on, not to mention the fact that there is a lot of technical stuff involved and discussing the music in layman's terms is often very difficult.

Don't get me wrong, I've gotten a lot out of the group so far and have really enjoyed broadening my early music knowledge. But my question to all pledged participants is: *are you getting something constructive out of the group?* Even if you're just "lurking" along and casually listening? I have no problem with keeping it going for its full duration, but as of right now I can only see weekly discussion dwindling even further. The only thing I'm concerned about is if we stick with such a small percentage of original participants, I start to question the effectiveness. Alternatively, we could come up with some different methods to foster conversation. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

For me, because of priorities, I'm skipping the weeks where I already know the composers (which is now three in a row), simply because I won't get something special out of listening to them right now, and I don't think I could give feedback useful to others. After Hildegard, I'll jump back in.So far, Dunstable has been a pleasant surprise among the new names for me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

My advice is to adjourn the group till summer's over. Same for the quartets.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Please don't postpone. We have months of listening! I admit I haven't always posted, but that's because I haven't always had something to say worth sharing. But I have done the listening. I also tend post later in the week, after I've listened a few times and thought abiut it. 

This week's Lassus was almost my own choice, in fact it was until I'd noticed someone had picked it already, so I will be saying something soon, later today. Sorry it's a bit on the late side.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I try to adhere to a self imposed rule when posting in TC: If I don't have anything intelligent to say about a matter I'll refrain from posting. One of the reasons I joined this thread is because I don't know a whole lot about early music and I figured this might be a good way to find out. So, I've been following the thread and listening to the selections. I just don't have anything intelligent to say and I'm saying it well.

Please, carry on!!!


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I think we will press forward as planned and see how things pan out! At the very least, the group will exist as a casual listening guide for those interested in exploring early music, and even if minimal discussion ensues it’s a helpful way to direct our listening time. There will come a time in a couple months where I won’t be around nearly as much as as I am now and thus can’t commit to “running” the group (along the string quartet thread) as in-depth as I have been, but rest assured I will still be listening along and contributing what I can. Thank you so much to those who are participating regularly, as your expertise is very helpful!


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