# Blind comparison: Beethoven's 5th, 1st Mov.



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Yet another in the blind comparison series, inspired by Becca's wonderful posts. Here are links to 5 performances of Beethoven's 5th, first movement. The object is to compare and contrast them without being biased by knowing the identity of the performers. Of course some will want to guess who they are ... which is fine If you do recognize a particular performance, please don't spoil it for others by posting the names, just PM me. Also PM me if you want to know about the selections. I will probably put the answers up by the end of this coming weekend.

PS, I uploaded FLAC files, the best players on PC are VLC, iTunes, WMP, and the like. They should be broadly playable. MP3 links for those included are below.

Enjoy...

FLAC files:
A: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZXlj37Z7FDaxvgOMRXRfvc4vlQCQLIV5YAV
B: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZblj37Zf7A9TXB7YG0lTRsuWkxUeVe7YSpV
C: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZjlj37ZxrAevXeiG2VuV19jj5x8DkVO5eGV
D: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZslj37ZjMKYKgF8dGVeqqj0cyujvH45DkD7
E: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZelj37ZAlXM6Gy3bJhadWXVeYkfL7RJMOYX

MP3 files:
A: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZlQu37ZCxfGbz4Fy8h8Xh8x2fOdPBDTF7uX
B: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZEQu37ZbYUY8U6vilRre6BPDiwGdV57iPWV
C: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZOQu37ZK0dKdwMYJnjGs3FftjKWgBrypmIX
D: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZUQu37ZQKW9jRbPrFReQdqrUtMbXzfzdmp7
E: https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZAQu37ZXApGX5JprKBcWGEo3A5H5F1hotey


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

There are over 250 records of the 5th symphony. 
No one can get any of them correct.
You need to list at least 10 conductors,,and let folks pick from the 10. 

Or better mention the 5 conductors and see who can make a perfect score.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm not asking for 5 guesses (although these would be on the easier side of the scale to guess) but for a discussion of the relative merits of the 5. If you can't guess, that makes the discussion even more valid.

How about this : there are no oddball selections here. They are all from first page of Amazon results for cycles or individual discs available for purchase on cd.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I've listen to 1st few seconds of each,,,Only 1/maybe 2 stands out as a success.
A few are *duds*
1 is a absolute *bomb*

Here is the finest 5th of the 250 available 5th's. 
The Gold Standard. Which I knew would be not surpassed now for 35 years.

I am a record critic, my hobby past 30 years.






Most likely trumps the 2 or 3 Furtwangler, mostly, but not entirely, for the superior sound over Furtwangler;s poor 40's/50's sound

Sorry to rain out your guessing game....


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

paulbest said:


> I've listen to 1st few seconds of each,,,Only 1 stands out as a success.
> A few are *duds*
> 1 is a absolute *bomb*
> 
> ...


Which ones is a success, which are duds, and which is a bomb?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Just how in the h*** can you tell that something is a dud or bomb after only hearing a few seconds of a 40 minute symphony?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Becca said:


> Just how in the h*** can you tell that something is a dud or bomb after only hearing a few seconds of a 40 minute symphony?


Just the first four notes, right?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

paulbest said:


> I've listen to 1st few seconds of each,,,Only 1/maybe 2 stands out as a success.
> A few are *duds*
> 1 is a absolute *bomb*
> 
> ...


Geez let some people have a little fun.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Malx said:


> Geez let some people have a little fun.


Oh, it's OK. I did choose practically the most recorded piece of music ever.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Some will argue for the Furtwangler /Berlin PO/1954
Others
for 
Walter/Columbia
Furtwangler's has more *punch*, and I feel the Columbia is a finer voicing orchestra in every section. 
With the Furtwangler, the poor sound does not allow the nuances of the winds to be heard properly
Walter has chosen the finer classical lines. The record quality of the Walter makes his the clear winner.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Malx said:


> Geez let some people have a little fun.


More fun, had he chosen like the top 5 historic records, like all pre 1960. 
This is when the magic happened. 
*The legends*


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Just the first four notes, right?


about 6 or 7 seconds, truth be told.

Bruno Walter, Janurary, 27th, 1958,,,
good news, Not stereo!
bad news, some sections of orchestra lacks definition. 
hummm, I;'ll take mono in this Beethoven 5th, over stereo. 
More Organic and the results are more cohesive and surrounds the listener, impoartnt in Beethoven, as at times, he has stops and starts/pauses. 
Each section blends beautifully with the others, 
No section blares out like a sore thumb.

Its like panoramic sound , like you would experience in the back seat of a auditorium. The best seats in the house.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Enjoy...
> 
> A https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZXlj37Z7FDaxvgOMRXRfvc4vlQCQLIV5YAV
> B https://my.pcloud.com/publink/show?code=XZblj37Zf7A9TXB7YG0lTRsuWkxUeVe7YSpV
> ...


Unfortunately I can see the identity of the recordings when downloading - no way to avoid this.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

premont said:


> Unfortunately I can see the identity of the recordings when downloading - no way to avoid this.


OK, will try to redo
...
OK, metadata stripped. I am adding MP3 files as well.
...
MP3 files added. All metadata should be gone.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Ok, I downloaded the files, closed my eyes and started listening to all five performances.

*A* was so against what I expect from this music that I couldn't finish listening. It was the only performance I skipped, as I really disliked it.

*B* and *C* sounded much better to my ears, but there was still something missing, I can't say what. I liked the chosen tempi though.

...Then, I started listening to *D*. It was shocking, tense, beautiful, great. All the drama was there. My emotional response to this performance was such that I almost cried.

*E* was great also. Fiery, like it should be.

So, my response to these performances in terms of how much I liked each of them is as follows:

*D > E > B > C >> A*.

P.S.: All what I stated above is _in my opinion_. I think I recognized some of the performances, but still tried to be as impartial as I could.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Allerius said:


> Ok, I downloaded the files, closed my eyes and started listening to all five performances.
> 
> *A* was so against what I expect from this music that I couldn't finish listening. It was the only performance I skipped, as I really disliked it.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, Allerius, VERY interesting 

I don't want to prejudice any results, so I will only say that your ranking was either 100% in agreement with mine, or completely, diametrically opposed to mine.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm quite certain that I recognize 2, maybe 3 of them and so don't feel that I can be objective in commenting


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Becca said:


> I'm quite certain that I recognize 2, maybe 3 of them and so don't feel that I can be objective in commenting


How about a simple ranking? I'm curious to know your take.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2019)

They all seem to be in stereo so that rules out Toscanini and Furtwangler.

The volume levels are not set evenly, so that doesn't help a fair comparison.

A is too slow. It starts out badly, and nothing like what it's supposed to be.

B and C are slightly too fast.

By far the best are D and E. I prefer E. The sound is cleaner especially the brass and strings. 

My ranking (best first): E, D, B, C, A


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

I actually really like the tempo in B & C, though E is classic, crisp-sounding, and all-around top quality. D gets muddled too much, as if it's over-produced. It does sound more ominous, though.

I'll agree that A is way too slow. I don't think it's bad, just not at all for me.

B & C sound HIP to me, though it's interesting to see what shines through. I prefer B more, and really appreciate the woodwinds, while C's timpani sounds more emphasized. Am I making that up? At the very least, it stood out to me.

I'd go with E & B for regular listening, then C, D, and a distant A.

Edit: I did something like this before, and came up with E & B for my regular listening, so this post will be somewhat biased, but for myself I reaffirmed what I think I like.


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## Mifek (Jul 28, 2018)

D and B stand out IMO, though they are very different. I'm wondering what B is - it differs from what I'm used to listen to, yet I like it very much. Here is my ranking:
B>D>E>C>A


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Between the 2 speed demons, B & C, marginally B, a tad less frenetic although C is definitely HIP 
Between the 2 more traditional, D & E, almost certainly E, D is a bit too slick
I really don't know what to make of A, slow & slack rather than slow and firm (whatever that means)

If I had to choose a preference from this list it would be E, but it almost certainly wouldn't be a preferred choice.
Perhaps B as a second choice in this list??


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

There is a live recording of Conductor A from the same time period that is much better than this studio version, which though powerful is a bit too limp. In fact I put the live version above all other modern recordings, even D and E.

D and E are both quite well known. No need to say anything further. Both good, but E gets the nod.

C has never been my cup of tea. Of course we all know it’s period from the lower key.

B had me a bit baffled. It’s the only one I couldn’t figure out. Hate the interpretation.

I would’ve added Giulini/LAPO, an excellent modern version.

The truly greats are mostly live and pre-stereo: Furtwangler ‘47, Jochum ‘51, Klemperer ‘57, and Toscanini ‘33


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Becca said:


> D is a bit too slick


The fan boys won't like this

Sooo true, however...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

B>E>D>A>C

I like B's speed, power and tension. Actually, I enjoyed all five.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

Becca said:


> Between the 2 speed demons, B & C, marginally B, a tad less frenetic although C is definitely HIP
> Between the 2 more traditional, D & E, almost certainly E, D is a bit too slick
> I really don't know what to make of A, slow & slack rather than slow and firm (whatever that means)
> 
> ...


Since we ranked these the same way, I'd be curious to hear your actual preferred choices.

Although perhaps after the names are revealed to not give anything away.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

May I ask those who have used the term to describe what "slick" means? Can you point to a particular passage that exhibits this slickness?


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2019)

A - Fantastic. Its resemblance to a sedate and lush "Pastoral" makes it quite refreshing, given the vigour one usually expects.

(Not a record critic for 30 years!)


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

D is, to my ears, impressive but too perfect. Too much emphasis on efficiency. I don’t get a sense of the human drama behind the music. That is what I call slick. Lacking human vulnerability. Being perfect. It doesn’t do it for me, especially in music like Beethoven’s.

A is the other extreme, too self-indulgent to the point of lacking direction and maintaining interest. Emotion must be disciplined and intelligently guided.

The conductor’s job is to tell a story, not simply to play music.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ agreed


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Here is Lenny in better form. I am more interested in this than either D or E. I feel like a story is being told, a drama unfolding. The final movement is fantastic, one of the best I know.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Same concert as above. Listen to the final coda at 35:00. THAT is Beethoven!


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Well, comments seem to be slowing down, so here are the recordings :
A - Bernstein VPO 1980
B - Chailly Gewandhaus Orch. 2013
C - Gardiner ORR 1994
D - Karajan BPO 1977
E - Kleiber VPO 1975

My personal ranking is D-E-C-B-A. 

I can understand the charge of slickness with HvK 1977, but I don't share it. I find it forceful but also sublimely beautiful. Karajan seems to favor very even tempii, which allows me to ignore it and focus on the notes. I wish the brass did not drown out the strings quite this much, but this is the one I keep returning to. That BPO brass is just too compelling. 

Kleiber’s is substantially similar, just with clearer strings (and correspondingly deemphasized brass). It's an engaging listen. It's a little slower than HvK's, to its minor detriment. 

Chailly's is Hurry-sick to me. So clipped in phrasing, so rushed, I feel hardly a thing while listening. Great sound, though. 

Gardiner's is my favorite HIP version. It takes a mental adjustment to the thinner period instruments and quicker tempo, but once I get there, it is exciting. Not as soulful as HvK or Kleiber, though. 

Bernstein's is a train wreck. Turgid tempo, a real slog to get through.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I was asked about my preferred versions. About a year ago I spent some time sorting through a subset of Beethoven symphony recordings and came up with a few which appealed to me...

HIP - Immerseel/Anima Eterna. It is almost as fast as Gardiner but for some reason doesn't seem quite so frenetic.
Traditional - Probably Klemperer/1955 as my first choice. I was also impressed with a Jansons/BRSO from the Tokyo live concert series but I haven't gone back to that to confirm my feelings. I have mixed feelings about the Chailly/Leipzig but do have a copy.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Beethoven's 5th has to move, and by that I don't mean move quickly. There is a saying that the power of Beethoven lies in the space between the notes. This is true. You have to know as a conductor how to manage the tension. If everything is simply rushing forward, you rob the music of its drama and anticipation. Likewise, if you go at a steady, trodging pace you also destroy the drama. A great Beethoven conductor has to understand the natural push and pull - the harmonic narrative - of the music. Otherwise it's just a bunch of notes strung together.

Here are examples of great Beethoven conducting:


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2019)

I knew for sure that "E" was Kleiber/VPO. I have played it very many times and it shouted at me immediately. 

I was reasonably confident that "D" was Karajan/BPO/77. I guessed that C was probably Gardiner/ORR, but I couldn't work out "A" and "B". It's not surprising since I don't have either of Chailly/Gewandhaus or Bernstein/VPO. And I won't be rushing out to acquire either.

In my opinion, and apparently several others' in this thread, Kleiber/VPO is the best of those given here. I chose "D" (Karajan/BPO/77) as my second favourite. It's better than I remembered it, the pacing is good, the orchestra is fine, but the sound quality overall is not up to that of "E". I think the VPO's strings were better than the BPOs at around that time, probably still are.. 

I have several other versions of Symphony No 5 but I hardly ever play them. There's no need to do so as I've made comparisons in the past and I have never found anything to match the quality of the Kleiber/VPO version. It's among the most highly praised classical recordings ever. 

I have recently listened to Paul's recommendation of Walter/Columbia of 1958. It's good. I'm pretty sure it's stereo, not mono. I might play it occasionally. In my opinion, Walter's 4th and 6th are better than his 5th.

I usually prefer HIP, but with Beethoven's symphonies I reckon that the best of the traditional orchestras are fine. The only HIP version of Sym 5 that I have is Gardiner/ORR, but I don't care for it much, and had difficulty recognising it as "C".

The pre-War stuff is out of the question as far as I'm concerned, and so too is anything post War and pre-stereo. The only exception I've made is for Symphony No 9 where I like Furtwangler/Bayreuth '51.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Partita said:


> I knew for sure that "E" was Kleiber/VPO. I have played it very many times and it shouted at me immediately.
> 
> I was reasonably confident that "D" was Karajan/BPO/77. I guessed that C was probably Gardiner/ORR, but I couldn't work out "A" and "B". It's not surprising since I don't have either of Chailly/Gewandhaus or Bernstein/VPO. And I won't be rushing out to acquire either.
> 
> ...


The only one I didn't recognize was Chailly, which I had never heard before. I had read enough bad things about it so never took the time to sample it.

Kleiber was immediately recognizable for the cutting strings. Karajan '62 is like a hot rod car. Gardiner is probably the most famous and appealing of the HIP versions, though still not my cup of tea. Bernstein/VPO was the weak point of his cycle along with the Eroica. (the rest of the VPO cycle is quite good, however)

You should sample the alternate live Bernstein I linked above. Very different from the Kleiber/Karajan approach. And the sound is excellent for a live performance.

Another very good modern version is Giulini/LAPO. Finally, let's not forget there is a great version by Carlos Kleiber's father, Erich. I actually marginally prefer that version to the son's.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> The only one I didn't recognize was Chailly, which I had never heard before. I had read enough bad things about it so never took the time to sample it.
> 
> Kleiber was immediately recognizable for the cutting strings. Karajan '62 is like a hot rod car. Gardiner is probably the most famous and appealing of the HIP versions, though still not my cup of tea. Bernstein/VPO was the weak point of his cycle along with the Eroica. (the rest of the VPO cycle is quite good, however)
> 
> ...


Chailly isn't all bad. His 2nd, 3rd, and 8th are quite nice, and are better suited to his tempii and phrasing. The 8th is his best, the 1st movement is practically punk rock.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

premont said:


> Unfortunately I can see the identity of the recordings when downloading - no way to avoid this.


Thanks for this comparison, MatthewWeflen. I also saw the identity of the files so thought it unfair to join in (which is a shame as im always up for these blind comparisons and have made a few of these too). I'm sure some others saw the identity of those files first before they commented. It would explain some of the cliched comments. Btw, as a word of advice, if youre doing these comparisons its probably best to either use a smaller piece (but shorter - eg tone poem) or smaller complete symphonies (individual movements dont tell the full story). Rarer or live versions throw people off the scent too.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Merl said:


> Thanks for this comparison, MatthewWeflen. I also saw the identity of the files so thought it unfair to join in (which is a shame as im always up for these blind comparisons and have made a few of these too). I'm sure some others saw the identity of those files first before they commented. It would explain some of the cliched comments. Btw, as a word of advice, if youre doing these comparisons its probably best to either use a smaller piece (but shorter - eg tone poem) or smaller complete symphonies (individual movements dont tell the full story). Rarer or live versions throw people off the scent too.


I will certainly scrub harder if I do another one. Beethoven cycles are what I have the most of (9 I believe? Maybe 10...), so shorter works aren't really doable for my collection. Maybe I'll do the funeral march some time.


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## AeolianStrains (Apr 4, 2018)

How did you guys see the file names? I didn't see anything when playing it in Firefox.



Becca said:


> I was asked about my preferred versions. About a year ago I spent some time sorting through a subset of Beethoven symphony recordings and came up with a few which appealed to me...
> 
> HIP - Immerseel/Anima Eterna. It is almost as fast as Gardiner but for some reason doesn't seem quite so frenetic.
> Traditional - Probably Klemperer/1955 as my first choice. I was also impressed with a Jansons/BRSO from the Tokyo live concert series but I haven't gone back to that to confirm my feelings. I have mixed feelings about the Chailly/Leipzig but do have a copy.


Thanks for this. I was digging through Norrington already, so I'll add Immerseel to the mix, since before I always skipped over it. While I do enjoy historically-informed performances, I'm not always a fan of period instruments. The last Immerseel I heard I believe was his album of Beethoven's Violin Sonatas with Midori Seiler. That fortepiano didn't do much for me. Likewise, listening to the 5th, while I do enjoy it, that bassoon not so much. It's also a smaller orchestra, which I'm still trying to assess. Still, I'll give it and the rest of his cycle more attention.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The OP removed the file names very early on so you probably didn't look until that was done.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Well, comments seem to be slowing down, so here are the recordings :
> A - Bernstein VPO 1980
> B - Chailly Gewandhaus Orch. 2013
> C - Gardiner ORR 1994
> ...


I just went though it tonight and before seeing the above list, came up with B as my favorite and A as my least favorite. I am surely biased towards faster paced, so probably order them B, C, D, E, A.

Of them I only have Bernstein, but with NYPO which seems equally as slow as VPO.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I just went though it tonight and before seeing the above list, came up with B as my favorite and A as my least favorite. I am surely biased towards faster paced, so probably order them B, C, D, E, A.
> 
> Of them I only have Bernstein, but with NYPO which seems equally as slow as VPO.


That's pretty much exactly fastest to slowest


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