# Contemporary composers, yet completely oppposed



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Seems we have some new topics, which composer are you morfe drawn towards,,
Composer A 
Or Composer B, both contemporaries yet each composer's forms, textures are completely opposed to the other. 
I've seen a few comments on a recent topic , highlighting the differences in Mahler;s approach to composition and Bruckner's musical constructions. 

Seems these protests are complaining these comparisons are pointless, fruitless, resulting in nothing worthy of TC discussions. and suggest that we *get back to music itself and stop all this tedious separation and conflicts,,as they are non productive*..
Yet, ck out the latest
Beethoven 
versus 
Schubert topic.
Seems there are 2 camps, in division. ,, With a few sitting on the boarder lines, not sure which way to vote..So they take the , luke warm, saying, *Equal*, Cheatin, if you ask me,. makea decision, dang it. 
One OR! the other.
Mahler and Bruckner's music are *quite different* , which is a understatement. Mahler and Bruckner are completely opposites. Now what other opposites in classical music do we have, where 2 composers music, writing nearly as contemporaries, 

I'll start..
Ahh here 's a contrast.
In the USA some decades back
Aron Copland, contrasting with Elliott Carter. Talk about opposites. 
I mean it might be possible for someone to boast, *gee I love both composers,,,equally*,,
Which I will have a hard time hearing this with credulity. I will be suspect, and remain mute to respond. 



There are others, go ahead and post the Mahler vs Bruckner opposite if you feel this is the *archetypal* contrast of all contrasts.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

So very contemporary! Sorry, I'm a postmodern kind of guy


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Rachmaninov/Bartok
Britten/ Birtwistle
Adams/Boulez
Glass/ Anything to do with music.
Webern/Howells...etc..etc..etc. 
oh, and
Ades/Manilow

It goes without saying that one _can_ and should, enjoy disparate styles of music.... I do, as will most here without expecting to have their credibility questioned (quite ridiculous Paul)....although I do prefer Ades to Manilow, unless I'm gonna dance with my wife - Ade's music is terrible to dance to I've found.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

mikeh375 said:


> Rachmaninov/Bartok
> Britten/ Birtwistle
> Adams/Boulez
> Glass/ Anything to do with music.
> ...


My doubts to credulity has only to do with the Mahler vs Bruncker , opposition , and no other comparison. 
How can someone say they like Mahler and Bruckner EQUALLY , LOVE BOTH,,,is beyond me.
It is a mystery, I guesss that does exist, But to explain that symbiosis, no please don't.

Lets see 
Adams/Boulez. check,,,Then
Boulez/Henze

Webern/Stravinsky.

Here is one that occurred long after the dumping of Sibelius. 
Sibelius/Pettersson
As I say, I stoped listening to Sibelius long before I discovered Petttersson,,,or no, wait, it may have been around the 2003 time period. 
Leets say, when I found Pettersson, it was like slamming shut on Sibelius, with a few exceptions. 
I still like Sibelius Pelleas suite. and a few others,,But his symphonies, violin concerto, both were history when I came into Pettersson.

WE all make new discoveries and with these new musical experiences,,well the old,,,just seems *older*.

Let me see, oh here's one, since we are mostly staying within each composers origin country.
Tchaikovsky/Schnittke,,,hehe,, now that's , opposite/contrast/conflicting. although not contemporary.
Well oick any modern , post Shostakovich Russian and put in his name vs Schnittke. 
That will work for me.
Note, post Shostakovich, there is nothing genius coming out of Russia. 
Now anywhere for that matter
2012 was 
*The day the music died*,,and she was singing bye bye miss American pie...…….


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I love Bruckner and Mahler, always have, always will. I also feel fortunate that I can appreciate and enjoy the modern and then go right back to the very old and still be moved.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Stockhausen/Henze
Contemporaries, yet diametrically opposed. 

Saint Seans/Maurice Ravel


Elgar/Vaughan Williams


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Beethoven/Mozart


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Dietrich Chaulkhest/ Heinrich Cheeseman


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Pierre Chaudre/Jean Froideaux

(blame CnC Bartok for egging me on with a like.....sorry Paul, I'll stop now, back to the serious discussion.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Seems we have some new topics, which composer are you morfe drawn towards,,
> Composer A
> Or Composer B, both contemporaries yet each composer's forms, textures are completely opposed to the other.
> I've seen a few comments on a recent topic , highlighting the differences in Mahler;s approach to composition and Bruckner's musical constructions.
> ...


Hello, didn't you start this other derailed thread on Mahler/Bruckner, like, yesterday? What are you up to?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The flaw in this thread is that 2 of the examples: Bruckner/Mahler and Beethoven/Schubert are not really contemporaries with Bruckner being 36 years older than Mahler and Beethoven 27 years older than Schubert. Both Bruckner and Beethoven had written a significant part of their oeuvre by the time that Mahler/Schubert were active.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Becca said:


> The flaw in this thread is that 2 of the examples: Bruckner/Mahler and Beethoven/Schubert are not really contemporaries with Bruckner being 36 years older than Mahler and Beethoven 27 years older than Schubert. Both Bruckner and Beethoven had written a significant part of their oeuvre by the time that Mahler/Schubert were active.


Now, don't confuse the OP with facts.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Becca said:


> The flaw in this thread is that 2 of the examples: Bruckner/Mahler and Beethoven/Schubert are not really contemporaries with Bruckner being 36 years older than Mahler and Beethoven 27 years older than Schubert. Both Bruckner and Beethoven had written a significant part of their oeuvre by the time that Mahler/Schubert were active.


I understand, many contrasts will not fit into a perfect time frame as contemporaries. 
This I get, But as you know musical styles are strictly limited to exact dates.

I am looking for at least near contemporary. 
Rachmaninov/Prokofiev, contrast,,,maybe not complete but enough to divide the 2.

Sibelius/Petttersson is not accurate, HOWEVER they both come from the same region of the world and both composed in the 20TH C. 
this is whayt I am after...
Shostakovich/Stravinsky, CONTRASTS.
Obviously in every contrast I mention, I love the one and can't stand the others music.
With few exceptions, ie Sibelius Kullervo, some tone poems, tahst about IT for Sibelius.

I see these contrasts as poignant and accurate, as far as perfering one composer and despising another. 
If this was not the truth, then why the hate here towards Pettersson and Henze? 
any clue?
I do, These are mahlerites , Beethovenites who refuse to mature in their tastes, they wish to remain stuck on a lower level of music.
Contrasts are real.

Stravinsky and Schoenberg are opposites. I love the one, can't stand the other.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Not exactly contemporaries,,but as far as ,,,
opposites

Nothing is more opposed to each other, NOTHING

Everyone knows Mahler, But here is the opposed sound.






Folks actually take Ligeti ,,,seriously...???
I never laughed so hard as when watching,,,a few minutes of 
THIS.
Ligeti the clown


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I too laugh at inappropriate moments. Couldn't stop myself peeing myself at the end of The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, guffawed loudly throughout Sophie's Choice, and I regularly wet myself and eject beer through my nostrils every time I hear Beethoven's Op.132.

Clearly Ligeti is way beyond your comfort zone. A clown? Seriously?

Yeah, I am afraid I would struggle to put Ligeti in my top 100 composers, but this music is no more risible than countless works by a whole cohort of contemporary composers, none of which I can name now, off the top of my head.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> I too laugh at inappropriate moments. Couldn't stop myself peeing myself at the end of The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas, guffawed loudly throughout Sophie's Choice, and I regularly wet myself and eject beer through my nostrils every time I hear Beethoven's Op.132.
> 
> Clearly Ligeti is way beyond your comfort zone. A clown? Seriously?
> 
> Yeah, I am afraid I would struggle to put Ligeti in my top 100 composers, but this music is no more risible than countless works by a whole cohort of contemporary composers, none of which I can name now, off the top of my head.


great post.
Clown , because he does what clowns are paid to do, make folks laugh,,which he does...
now your post suggests a thought that occurred to me, just before I click on your post ,,,,
new topic will be,,,could get me in some more trouble around here, as I just completed my attacks on the old standards,,,now I am re-focusing my energies to attack post modern trash composers.

So look for my new topic, which may inflame my other compatriots , The Modernists.

I am not so Modern as to lose my sensibilities as tom what should be considered real music. ]

anyway, please  make a comment on my new post


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2019)

paulbest said:


> So look for my new topic, which may inflame my other compatriots , The Modernists.


It's a hard job keeping up with all your posts. Just when I'm about to respond to one, you've posted another elsewhere, and then another.

What are they feeding you on? It must be good. I think I may need some of whatever it is.

Are you taking advantage of the Mods' summer break (on their hols to GMG had me in stitches) when anyone can say what they like on here without fear?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Don't we all get different things from different composers? Why can't we weigh those different things equally if that is how we feel? We might find different composers suit us in different moods, for example. There must be very few people here who only like one type of music from very similar composers. Even if your enjoyment of, broadly, classical music is limited to a handful of composers you are probably going to find them very different. And even just taking one of them you are likely to find different types of music as they mature or, assuming that they wrote in various forms (a few composers don't), as they write different types of pieces. Does that mean we should be compelled to organise them into hierarchies of preference?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yes it does,,,some composers like Ravel, has proven real , lasting value, 1000 listens, its still new and fresh,,,whereas post mod, Ligeti, Boulez, Stoockhausen, after 1 or 2 listens ,,, you wake up and realize , this stuff really grates on the nerves,,,why did I even fall for this noise,,,ohh it was someone over at TC, suggested I try post mod composer XYZ, w/o any thoughts that I might only be looking for music that has true lasting value, say like Ravel 

Ravel is the standard, by which all/every post mod is judged and critiqued. 
Which is the reason I diss so many post mods as just plain bothersome noise. 

Sure some post mods have some nice lines, and it is tempting for me to buy in,,,,,,but upon closer listens,,,we find the good lines are mixed in with fluff/tricks and gimmicks. 
Ligeti, Xenakis, next to Ravel , one hears both are noise. 

Hohvaness , Berio, Nono, Boulez , all just fall short of Ravel's perfection.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

people are actually buying into this stuff, unreal, so sad
CM is ended.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

paulbest said:


> Ravel is the standard, by which all/every post mod is judged and critiqued.
> Which is the reason I diss so many post mods as just plain bothersome noise.


No Paul. Ravel is the standard by which you judge every 'post mod'. Once you recognize this you'll be out of your conundrum.

Ravel is a sort of post-Debussy character anyway, who wouldn't have been what he was had Debussy (and others on the French music scene) not been active. It's a mystery to me why you are holding him up as a yardstick for measuring quality.

There are dozens of other composers who carried extended-tonality/modernism right up through the 20th century.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> people are actually buying into this stuff, unreal, so sad
> .....


That sentence sounds not a little like your president's tweets. Have I unmasked you?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

samm said:


> No Paul. Ravel is the standard by which you judge every 'post mod'. Once you recognize this you'll be out of your conundrum.


I've tried similar feedback weeks ago, no result. Paul's attitude is beautifully summarized by his own post here: nobody supports me, therefore everybody else is wrong.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I guess the world that paul envisages and is a prophet for would be one in which nearly all classical music - up to and including more contemporary music and most modern music - has been disposed of and we are left with a choice between the music of 6 or 7 approved composers. Bleak but I guess I would be wealthier.


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## haydnguy (Oct 13, 2008)

Continuing to beat this dead horse... I'll try a different angle.

I have heard that there have been painters that have taken paint bottles of different colors and randomly threw the paint at the canvas and however the paint lands on the canvas is how the painting is created. 

They probably say that you look at the painting and however your brain interprets the different shapes and forms of the paint is what the painting is.

Fine. But here's my question. If that's all I'm going to do, why should I pay big bucks to go to an art school when all I'm going to do is throw paint on the canvas? Avant-garde (using the term generally) by nature is never going to have mass appeal so unless I'm doing it as a hobby it's a waste of money to go to the schools.

Music is the same way. We all want classical music to thrive and do well but avant-garde isn't going to do it. (postmodern = avant-garde in my post).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree with the OP that these "comparison/contrast" threads are of limited interest; or worse, "who is better" threads.

These are only discussions; I wish respondents would "play poker" and not be afraid to make outrageous moves and bluffs. As Walt Whitman said, "So I contradict myself; I contain multitudes."

All the factual invalidations are boring.

Once again, CM listeners are alienated by any use of visual art ideas in music, approaches such as Ligeti and Cage. But Ligeti's Etudes are very valuable in terms of rhythm. I disagree with him being castigated or targeted.

But the main problem is that music people don't like modern art, not the music itself.

Also, the "paint-splattering" metaphor is too simplistic and short-sighted, and reveals a misunderstanding of art in general. An artist's work MUST be viewed in a longer context of his total development and output, not by single viewings of one aspect.

Also, "conceptual" ideas are not accepted and understood. Paul Best is unaware of Stockhausen's explorations into sound itself, and the psychology of listening and playing, things which are built-in to the works, often explicitly. Cage, too.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> That sentence sounds not a little like your president's tweets. Have I unmasked you?


lol,, got me on that one,,,does smack of old king Trump;s *semantics* twiddle-dee chirps and tweets.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

millionrainbows said:


> I agree with the OP that these "comparison/contrast" threads are of limited interest; or worse, "who is better" threads.
> 
> These are only discussions; I wish respondents would "play poker" and not be afraid to make outrageous moves and bluffs. As Walt Whitman said, "So I contradict myself; I contain multitudes."
> 
> ...


I should have made myself more clear in the OP,,,I came here to discuss classical music, mostly modern, even more interested in , late modern classical.

Yet I see so often art composers brought up in classical music contents.

My lines of defining classical music are extremely narrow compared to the TC board members and the general public.

Stockhasuen is performed in classical concert halls throughout Europe. He has been accepted as a classical composer, this is a mystery to me, his music holds no such standards. Lets examine his SQ's, his concertos? His symphonies. 
Then we can discuss him in a classical music content. 
Folks bought into him, how/why, is a mystery to me. 
Interesting music, no doubt, yet 
no cigar.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

haydnguy said:


> Continuing to beat this dead horse... I'll try a different angle.
> 
> I have heard that there have been painters that have taken paint bottles of different colors and randomly threw the paint at the canvas and however the paint lands on the canvas is how the painting is created.
> 
> ...


YES
You have it, What happened here is that folks like Stockhausen, Boulez, Ligeti, Berio, countless other famous late 20th C artists have considered putting their ideas on paper,,so they threw some ink, similar to other past masters of the 2nd Viennese tradition and thought the public might want to hear it.

And the public loved it, the post modern liberal group that is.

This large late 20th C art has somehow edged itself in with past great classical art. 
Boulez, Messaien , Part, Gorecki are all representative of avant garde art, .
Lets keep them there and refrain from bringing up their names in classical music discussions
Lets not forget Berio, post mod art, nothing more.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

samm said:


> No Paul. Ravel is the standard by which you judge every 'post mod'. Once you recognize this you'll be out of your conundrum.
> 
> Ravel is a sort of post-Debussy character anyway, who wouldn't have been what he was had Debussy (and others on the French music scene) not been active. It's a mystery to me why you are holding him up as a yardstick for measuring quality.
> 
> There are dozens of other composers who carried extended-tonality/modernism right up through the 20th century.


Agree, I brought up Ravel only as one standard marker,,there are many others, like Bartok, Shostakovich, ,,,Sibelius,,,no not him,,,,lets see, Prokofiev. 
Listen to Prokofiev's 2, 3 symphony's. Muisc you LOVE to visit often. Now listen to Berio, Stockhausen, Boulez. Often or seldom visits? 
Or never again?

Compare Stockhausen's concertos next to Prokofiev? 
can we rightfully place Stockhausen in the classical tradition next to Prokofiev? 
now honestly....

Boulez next to Debussy's piano music? ...Seriously....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> I guess the world that paul envisages and is a prophet for would be one in which nearly all classical music - up to and including more contemporary music and most modern music - has been disposed of and we are left with a choice between the music of 6 or 7 approved composers. Bleak but I guess I would be wealthier.


I have no more than,,,20,, and that a high range , 20 composers represented in my 300+ CD collection.

lately I just added Tubin, Szymanowski, some Boulez piano music, one other perhaps, can't recall. ,,I may break 20 composer now,,,,not sure until I unbox from moving. 
I'll let you know.


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

haydnguy said:


> Avant-garde (using the term generally) by nature is never going to have mass appeal so unless I'm doing it as a hobby it's a waste of money to go to the schools.


Avant-garde art isn't aiming for mass appeal. It is what the name says it is: a leap into new territory; even making new territory and thus making new tools and ideas to facilitate it. I'm sure every artist pursuing this knows that he/she will come up against obstacles with regard to criticism and dismissal. For some that may well be welcome as publicity, but I think it is a grave mistake to assume that _all_ such artists are merely prostituting themselves for notoriety, fame, money.

I can't imagine that someone would go through art school or music schools then give up more of their life to studying with others just to handicap themselves for that.

Your other questionable assumption is: that what is produced is objectively bad, therefore it follows that it has no value relationship to the education, training or experience preceding it.



haydnguy said:


> Music is the same way. We all want classical music to thrive and do well but avant-garde isn't going to do it. (postmodern = avant-garde in my post).


Avant-gardism _has_ actually done this in most instances. Avant-gardism produced Wagner and Stravinsky. Even when the composer isn't particularly the originator of the new ideas floating around, incorporating them most often brings new life the music. E.g. Malipiero melding his early training and style in Italian baroque with French impressionism and ideas of the French avant-garde.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

samm said:


> Avant-gardism _has_ actually done this in most instances. Avant-gardism produced Wagner and Stravinsky. Even when the composer isn't particularly the originator of the new ideas floating around, incorporating them most often brings new life the music. E.g. Malipiero melding his early training and style in Italian baroque with French impressionism and ideas of the French avant-garde.


Malipiero is one of those composers I haven't still listened and what you're saying it's interesting... can you mention some work to listen to?


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## samm (Jul 4, 2011)

norman bates said:


> Malipiero is one of those composers I haven't still listened and what you're saying it's interesting... can you mention some work to listen to?


Yes. The string quartets. They're all 'episodic' works in a single movement. There's a recording on ASV by the Orpheus SQ. Also his piano music, like Preludi Autunnali, I have the recording by Sandro Ivo Bartoli. Also his three 'Omaggio' pieces: To a Parrot, an Elephant and an Idiot!

Here's his 1920 piece: To Claude Debussy:


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