# Laughter or tears; scherzo or adagio (or largo etc)



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I wondered whether anyone has a preference for the faster movements in a symphony, or the slower. And whether there is a broad correlation between the pace of a movement and its mood in the simplistic way I've suggested in the title which might account for the preferences people might have.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Forster said:


> I wondered whether anyone has a preference for the faster movements in a symphony, or the slower. And whether there is a broad correlation between the pace of a movement and its mood in the simplistic way I've suggested in the title which might account for the preferences people might have.


I have no preference. Both can be wonderful or dismal. It's all individual cases for me.

I suppose one might say that scherzos, a couple of centuries ago, tended toward the lighthearted end of the spectrum, but there are counterexamples from the start, like Beethoven's Fifth iii or Berlioz Symphonie fantastique iv, although one could argue the latter is a pretty festive execution. Adagios could always go from serene to depressed. Shostakovich's scherzos are often intensely violent and serious. So no, I don't think laughter vs. tears is defensible.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I am happy to say I have no preference over faster or slower movements in a symphony. Neither does the tempo indicate laughter or tears. Take the fast 1st Movement of Tchaikovsky Pathétique (anxiety) and the slow movement of Sibelius´ 5th (happiness), for example.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I used to get bored easily with slow movements as a beginner many years ago but usually not anymore, unless they are really boring  In many "standard form" symphonies or sonatas the scherzo (or menuet, intermezzo or similar) is the "lightest" movement on purpose and as huge scherzo like in Mahler's 5th obviously requires a rather special organization of the whole symphony. Although I am a bit disappointed that post-Beethoven composers mostly stuck to a rather narrow range of options for scherzo-type movements I also think that these movements are often a bit underrated. There are already a few very good menuets, e.g. Haydn's 44th or Mozart's 40th symphony. My other favorites are mostly Beethoven and Mahler, some Dvorak (6th, 7th, 8th), Tchaikovsky (4th and the 5/4 waltz + vicious march in the 6th), Bruckner (6th +9th, the others are often a bit relentless, massive and too long for my taste), Berlioz' "Queen Mab", one of his best movements. There are also a few brilliant single scherzi: Dvorak's Scherzo capriccioso, one by Suk, Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice and the early Scherzo fantastique by Stravinsky.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Like most others here, it is an individual case-by-case situation. I will say that summed over many symphonies I do prefer the outer movements, Of the inner movements, I give scherzos a slight edge. Prokofiev stands out for his manic scherzos and said somewhere that what he called "scherzo-ness" particularly intrigued him, as evidenced by many of the "helter-skelter" movements, often quite short, that appear in many of his works.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

Very much a case-by-case basis, and my preference can fluctuate with my mood, whether I feel like hearing fast-paced, energetic music or slow-paced, meditative/emotional music.


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> I suppose one might say that scherzos, a couple of centuries ago, tended toward the lighthearted end of the spectrum, but there are counterexamples from the start, like Beethoven's Fifth iii or Berlioz Symphonie fantastique iv... Shostakovich's scherzos are often intensely violent and serious.


Listening to Bruckner's 9th always made me think that if Bruckner thought that was "joking" he must've thought a panzer assault was a laugh riot:


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I tend to lean more towards the outer movements, and then 2nd movement and then scherzo. I feel like there aren’t a lot of scherzo’s that feel like they are really part of the symphony or of the composers’s creative output seen often in the outer movements and particularly the first movement. It often feels like it is more fill up space since people way back decided that a symphony should now be in 4 movements. An excellent scherzo that has already been mentioned is Mozart’s 40th, one of the few exceptions to this IMO


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> Listening to Bruckner's 9th always made me think that if Bruckner thought that was "joking" he must've thought a panzer assault was a laugh riot:


A musicology professor I knew, while teaching a symphonic lit class, described the character of Bruckner scherzos with the words "elephantine galumphing."


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## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> A musicology professor I knew, while teaching a symphonic lit class, described the character of Bruckner scherzos with the words "*elephantine galumphing*."


That's just superb. I give props to anyone that can work Lewis Carroll's great neologism into a description!


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

First movements are often my favourites. I enjoy the sense of starting out on a fresh adventure and the greater variety of mood that they tend to encompass.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> I feel like there aren’t a lot of scherzo’s that feel like they are really part of the symphony or of the composers’s creative output seen often in the outer movements and particularly the first movement. It often feels like it is more fill up space since people way back decided that a symphony should now be in 4 movements. An excellent scherzo that has already been mentioned is Mozart’s 40th, one of the few exceptions to this IMO


One could always write 3 movement symphonies, as Mozart did with the #38 "Prague" but few composers chose to do so (Franck's is the most famous late romantic one in 3 movements). The scherzo/intermezzo/menuett is no big problem as long as one sees symphonies mostly as "abstract", "absolute" music. There is a danger of too repetitive movements but this could have been solved easily by keeping them short or as Beethoven already wrote one great scherzo movement that is a flexible mix between rondo and sonata form instead of the typical tripartite form (in op.59/1).
But it can be a challenge for romantic quasi-narrative or programmatic music unless a dance fits in the story (like "un Bal"), or even for the general "seriousness" of a lot of (late) romantic symphonies. However, Mahler is probably my second favorite composer of symphonic scherzi and he used the type brilliantly. Although I find some of them too long (3,ii and iii, here I think he did the same "types" better in his 2nd) most other are among favorites and he covered a rather wide range from the graceful idyllic menuet-like pieces like 2,ii to grotesquely humorous like 4,ii or 9,ii and the dark/nightmarish like 7,iii or 9,iii, with the huge scherzo of the 5th as the probably unique case of a scherzo movement as "axis" of a large scale symphony.


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