# Your opinion of Beethoven in HIP?



## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

For the longest time I've been listening to Immerseel's HIP Beethovne set. But I recently started listening to my old set with the Staatskapelle Dresden with Blomstedt, with fairly restrained performances. My set with Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin arrived today. And I have to say, I do not mind the slower tempo. I'm able to hear the all the instruments more clearly, for there's more time and more instruments. Plus it sounds grander and in a way more Brahms-like.


So what are your opinions on Beethoven in HIP vs non-HIP?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I like both, but probably favor at least HIP informed performances. I don't think sounding Brahms-like is what I want. 

Then again, I like my Klemperer 9.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Depends on the day of the week, the time of day, and the state of my digestion! Fortunately I have a lot to choose from.


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## Proms Fanatic (Nov 23, 2014)

Are you referring to HIP as meaning "Historically-Inspired Performance"?

What are the main differences between HIP from Beethoven's time and current performances?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

To be truly HIP, the orchestra would have to be crappy and only two rehearsals, max, would be allowed.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Declined said:


> For the longest time I've been listening to Immerseel's HIP Beethovne set. But I recently started listening to my old set with the Staatskapelle Dresden with Blomstedt, with fairly restrained performances. My set with Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin arrived today. And I have to say, I do not mind the slower tempo. I'm able to hear the all the instruments more clearly, for there's more time and more instruments. Plus it sounds grander and in a way more Brahms-like.


I also don't want my Beethoven sounding Brahms-like. However, I can go either way with Beethoven's symphonies. It's the chamber music where I insist on period instruments. I don't like using HIP anymore; it's taken on such a variety of meanings that I consider the term pretty useless.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

HIP apparently worked well in Ludwig's own day. His music was popular. So it must have sounded good played on instruments of his day, played with the techniques and mannerisms of his day, and performed according to his explicit tempo and dynamics directions (especially when he himself conducted the works). I don't recall reading anything from those times that complained the music did not sound enough like Brahms.

I do suspect that Beethoven would have appreciated his music being played on modern instruments in modern ways and in contemporary orchestral halls designed for acoustical refinement. Beethoven showed interest in new advances that improved the piano and other instruments, he was interested in expanding the top and bottom soundings of the orchestra (adding piccolos and contrabassoons) and I'm sure he would have gotten a "hoot" out of how well today's orchestral musicians can play. The technique in Beethoven's day was restrictive by today's standards. Instrumentalists are just better trained today, and they have the advantage of gaining techniques needed to play all the complexities found in post-Beethoven era music. It seems to me that if an instrumentalist can follow a Richard Strauss score, or play Penderecki and Xenakis, as well as Brahms and Mahler and Rachmaninoff and Bartok, that Beethoven would not be so technically challenging (though in Beethoven's own time the music may well have been).

So ... enjoy both presentations -- what Beethoven himself may have heard in the way he heard it (though I'll bet the majority of today's HIP players are better overall than the players Beethoven himself worked with and thus can render the music with greater sureness), or the music as done up with the latest and best in instruments and instrumentalists and concert halls and recording techniques. It seems to me that either way, Beethoven comes through. The music is just that indestructible.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Proms Fanatic said:


> Are you referring to HIP as meaning "Historically-Inspired Performance"?
> 
> What are the main differences between HIP from Beethoven's time and current performances?


HIP tend to be faster, with a smaller orchestra, and with period instruments.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Declined said:


> HIP tend to be faster, with a smaller orchestra, and with period instruments.


And lower pitch when with original instruments. Less vibrato.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Declined said:


> Plus it sounds grander and in a way more Brahms-like.


I don't like it when Beethoven sounds non-Beethovenian (more Brahmsian in this case).

There are many non HIP Beethoven recordings I quite like, for example the Takács Quartet's recordings of the string quartets, Leibowitz's Beethoven Symphonies, Wand's Beethoven Symphonies, Chailly's Beethoven Symphonies especially, Pollini's Beethoven piano sonatas and Abbado's recording of Fidelio to name a few.

But I tend to lean towards recordings which are either closer to Beethoven's specifications and documented performance practises of the day. For example, I prefer Zinman's and Chailly's Beethoven Symphonies to Wand's but Gardiner's to both. My favourite Eroica is Savall's with the recoridng by Ensemble 28 coming in second place. Brautigam is my favourite pianist for Beethoven and I can't get enough of the Smithson Quartet's op. 18 set.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There are several complete Beethoven symphony cycles that have the important virtues of HIP performance using modern instruments. One of the earliest and best (already mentioned by COAG) is by the Royal Philharmonic, Rene Leibowitz conducting. Older but in fine stereo sound, highly recommended. The icing on the cake: It's only $2.69 as part of a much larger download!

http://www.amazon.com/Genius-Beetho...436234024&sr=1-1&keywords=genius+of+beethoven


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## Le Peel (May 15, 2015)

I have zero preference. From my experience, the reading and performance count for more than whether it's HIP or not.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Most of my favorite Beethoven recordings are on modern instruments. I see no reason to listen to his piano music, in particular, on anything but a modern piano.

There are exceptions, though: my new favorite Missa Solemnis is Philippe Herreweghe's most recent HIP version. Gardiner is good too. But that makes sense, since that piece is so heavily indebted to 16th century music.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't find the effectiveness of Beethoven's music dependent on the sounds of period instruments, though I do enjoy the greater prominence of the winds in an orchestra with fewer strings. I'm not attached to Beethoven's very fast metronome markings either; many composers and conductors find that a tempo which seems right "in one's head" turns out to be faster than ideal when the "weight" of sound is actually experienced. Besides, attempting to adjust the articulation of music to a tempo decided upon before a work is even studied and grasped is a pedantic exercise that straightjackets the music and kills its spirit. I believe I hear the unfortunate consequences of this approach in recordings (not only of Beethoven) by Roger Norrington.

I like Beethoven every way but boring.


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## Autocrat (Nov 14, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> Most of my favorite Beethoven recordings are on modern instruments. I see no reason to listen to his piano music, in particular, on anything but a modern piano.
> 
> There are exceptions, though: my new favorite Missa Solemnis is Philippe Herreweghe's most recent HIP version. Gardiner is good too. But that makes sense, since that piece is so heavily indebted to 16th century music.


Herreweghe's Symphony cycle (Royal Flemish Phil.) is partially HIP. It uses mostly modern instruments, except for some brass and tympani. Almost no vibrato (even on the oboe). I like it because if I had a score in front of me I could follow anything and everything, so clear is the recording.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I don't find the effectiveness of Beethoven's music dependent on the sounds of period instruments, though I do enjoy the greater prominence of the winds in an orchestra with fewer strings. I'm not attached to Beethoven's very fast metronome markings either; *many composers and conductors find that a tempo which seems right "in one's head" turns out to be faster than ideal when the "weight" of sound is actually experienced. *Besides, attempting to adjust the articulation of music to a tempo decided upon before a work is even studied and grasped is a pedantic exercise that straightjackets the music and kills its spirit. I believe I hear the unfortunate consequences of this approach in recordings (not only of Beethoven) by Roger Norrington.
> 
> I like Beethoven every way but boring.


This is actually to do with acoustics and resonance in the room the music is played. In one's head, there is no reverb so imagining utmost clarity, or even just a clear harmonic rhythm, with a very fast tempo is easy to do. In real life, the sound will naturally resonate and bounce off things and it would be audible for a little bit longer making incredibly fast music a little less clear. I suppose what Beethoven would have really really wanted is for the first movement of his 3rd symphony to be played at around M.M. 56 to 58 rather than 60. Of course, maybe he did actually consider this....we never really can know can we?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This is actually to do with acoustics and resonance in the room the music is played. In one's head, there is no reverb so imagining utmost clarity, or even just a clear harmonic rhythm, with a very fast tempo is easy to do. In real life, the sound will naturally resonate and bounce off things and it would be audible for a little bit longer making incredibly fast music a little less clear. I suppose what Beethoven would have really really wanted is for the first movement of his 3rd symphony to be played at around M.M. 56 to 58 rather than 60. Of course, maybe he did actually consider this....we never really can know can we?


I have often thought exactly the same thing. After all, most of his metronome markings were added late in life; often his verbal statements were transcribed by his nephew. BTW his metronome has been checked for accuracy (by Schiff I believe) and found to be right on the mark.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

It may also be a possibility that he just kept getting faster as he got older!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Is that why his friends called him Fast Louie?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

A counter-view: *Both.

Yes, indeed, 'tis possible!*

Instead of the factional division of HIPsters and the non-HIPsters, I am from both. Immerseel being my go-to HIPster conductor.

Although, I am definitely slanted towards "modern performance traditions". So, for me, even Bohm and Klemperer work. Oh, and Celibidache!


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I tend to prefer HIP or HIP-like, but I like the music enough for the non-HIP approach to work fine too.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Lord Lance said:


> A counter-view: *Both.
> 
> Yes, indeed, 'tis possible!*
> 
> ...


Celibidache is a wonderful conductor and I really love his interpretations of everything he conducted. What happened to Karajan btw? Is he still the greatest conductor for you?


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Celibidache is a wonderful conductor and I really love his interpretations of everything he conducted. What happened to Karajan btw? Is he still the greatest conductor for you?


Even if some may find it shocking, I have not heard his '60s cycle, partially completed '70s cycle and wholly listened to '80s cycle. So, for me, I enjoy his 1980s cycle with all its wonderful idiosyncrasies and grander playing and slower tempi. Remember, J-dog, Celibidache is my _grandmaster. _Karajan is and will always remain my *Lord.

*


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## Musicophile (May 29, 2015)

I personally can live with both, and currently like best modern ensembles that have learned from the HIP approach. 

My current favorite Beethoven cycle is Paavo Järvi's with the Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie, which does just that.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

HIP or not, it really is about the interpretation. Many HIP work well as do many non-HIP but some I dislike from both. It really is not the approach itself that is the only driver. I tend to prefer HIP. Choice is good.


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Halfway HIP is rather nice with Beethoven: Zinman, Vänskä.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2015)

Maybe this has already been covered but I'll be damned if I'm going to read through pages and pages. 
Anyways, as yous all knows, playing Beethoven's "Moonlight" according to his instructions is only possible on a period instrument. Of course, had he had access to a modern piano he would have done differently.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Am usually not interested, including after hearing Gardiner, Zinman & Immerseel. Just not my cuppa. There´s an OK old recording of the Triple Concerto with Collegium Aureum I like hearing from time to time.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Xaltotun said:


> Halfway HIP is rather nice with Beethoven: Zinman, Vänskä.


What do you mean by "halfway HIP"? is that like HIP on modern instruments?


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

Florestan said:


> What do you mean by "halfway HIP"? is that like HIP on modern instruments?


Yes that, but even more, just an expression of how it sounds to me.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Xaltotun said:


> Yes that, *but even more*, just an expression of how it sounds to me.


Perhaps the smaller sized orchestra too.


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

I like Beethoven played by ORR/Gardiner, I don't care much about it otherwise.


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

People think of HIP like it's going to make their beloved Beethoven sound weak. In fact, I think the smaller orchestra only accentuates the power and depth of the music. No longer is each section drowned out by the overabundance of strings. I'm not saying I don't love a good Mahler-esque orchestra rumbling through my speakers. Who says HIP can't be powerful? Immerseel's set has to be heard. It really falls down to the conductor and the engineer of the recording. I feel that all the Anima Eterna releases I've purchased have been recorded and performed with great skill, and I've yet to be disappointed. Are they definitive? Who is to say? I still think Walter Weller's Symphony set with the Birmingham Orchestra is my favorite of all time. When I see a name like Pinnock, Immerseel, or Herreweghe on the cover, I trust that at least they are trying to achieve a level of authenticity to the best of their ability. It might not be the greatest performance ever, but they try to let the music speak for itself. 

Am I a period snob? I hope not. I lean toward period performances because I have a love of history. If I can get closer to what Mozart, Vivaldi, Bach, or Beethoven were hearing in their heads, the more I feel I connect to them. I still love hearing the Goldberg variations on a Steinway in a large concert hall...even though Bach wouldn't have known that sound.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Celibidache said that tempo is determined by the room. If it's a dry room, it can be faster.

I like gut strings. For that reason, I have the Gardiner set.

Listen to the Smithsonian players, who use gut.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> People think of HIP like it's going to make their beloved Beethoven sound weak.


I would think that original instruments is weaker than modern instrument HIP.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I used to be HIP only because I didn't like vibrato and portamento. Now I'll take a great performance however it comes, even if it is Toscanini's 3rd from the '30s or Furtwangler from the '40s.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I love the winds and horns best for HIP Beethoven symphonies.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

The problem is if you're going to do it right, that means using a natural horn and there are damned few people who can play them well.


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