# Who luv da Long Long Bach?



## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)




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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)




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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Luchesi said:


>


The version of the variation I posted seems much nicer to that of Gould's. I guess Gould is either loved or hated. I'm starting to see why he might not be liked. Is he just seen to be butchering it?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I thought you meant "who loves long works of Bach?"


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> The version of the variation I posted seems much nicer to that of Gould's. I guess Gould is either loved or hated. I'm starting to see why he might not be liked. I*s he just seen to be butchering it*?


 I do have that idea with all he does.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> The version of the variation I posted seems much nicer to that of Gould's. I guess Gould is either loved or hated. I'm starting to see why he might not be liked. Is he just seen to be butchering it?


Lang Lang on one bank and Gould on the other bank, with the ocean of many other pianists in the middle (and might I say, they're boring). We're doing ok if our purpose is to experience the large ranges each work offers. There's so much to be found in them.
Everyone says that.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Luchesi said:


> Lang Lang on one bank and Gould on the other bank, with the ocean of many other pianists in the middle (and might I say, they're boring). We're doing ok if our purpose is to experience the large ranges each work offers. There's so much to be found in them.
> *Everyone says that.*



Everybody, are you sure?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Lang Lang BWV 988 (St. Thomas Church, Leipzig)


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> Everybody, are you sure?


I'm trying to imagine what else would they would say? Are we jealous of such showmen types? 

What motivates them other than the works? 
Did either one play the Diabelli Variations? No, it wouldn't be successful with their approaches.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

hammeredklavier said:


> Lang Lang BWV 988 (St. Thomas Church, Leipzig)


Does this director care about music? I want to see his hands not his face. 

We always see his yearning and frowning. Any teacher would tell him to cut that out. It doesn't add, it detracts.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

*LANG LANG!!!! *plays Johann Sebastian Bach.

Actually it sounds pretty good.


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## AaronSF (Sep 5, 2021)

Ugh. Terrible Bach playing, IMO. He's releasing an album of nothing but Disney tunes soon. That's more his speed.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I really don’t understand the hate towards Lang Lang on this forum by some members. This is the reason that classical music has the snobbish reputation it has. He’s an incredible pianist and if you think he’s only fit to play Disney tunes than you seriously don’t know anything about good piano playing


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> I really don’t understand the hate towards Lang Lang on this forum by some members. This is the reason that classical music has the snobbish reputation it has. He’s an incredible pianist and if you think he’s only fit to play Disney tunes than you seriously don’t know anything about good piano playing


You're right. 

Gould plays with expert precision as if he's exploring for the first time. He played many of the Goldberg variations, perhaps 6? times live in recitals. Always fresh and different, as different as he was feeling at each time. And usually quite mechanically, but impressively.

Lang Lang plays with the coating of romanticism and smoothness which is similar to other great instrumentalists. He tries to bring everyone into his world. Gould stays intentionally aloof.
I enjoy both players, for all the differences in interpretation. 

What would JSB prefer as a playing style, on one of these very expensive and powerful grand pianos, so foreign to his world? In a small chamber room or in a concert hall? We can guess.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

EvaBaron said:


> I really don’t understand the hate towards Lang Lang on this forum by some members. This is the reason that classical music has the snobbish reputation it has. He’s an incredible pianist and if you think he’s only fit to play Disney tunes than you seriously don’t know anything about good piano playing


I can see both sides of this. I wish I had one ten thousandth of Lang Lang's piano technique, there are recordings of his which show there's a real musician behind it, it's great if he brings a new audience to the music, and hatred isn't necessary or helpful in this context (or in many others for that matter). However, I often don't enjoy the use he makes of his gifts. For me he frequently over-sentimentalises the music and diverts the spotlight on to himself.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I can see both sides of this. I wish I had one ten thousandth of Lang Lang's piano technique, there are recordings of his which show there's a real musician behind it, it's great if he brings a new audience to the music, and hatred isn't necessary or helpful in this context (or in many others for that matter). However, I often don't enjoy the use he makes of his gifts. For me he frequently over-sentimentalises the music and diverts the spotlight on to himself.


The spotlight shouldn't be on the performer? It should be on the score.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> I really don’t understand the hate towards Lang Lang on this forum by some members. This is the reason that classical music has the snobbish reputation it has. He’s an incredible pianist and if you think he’s only fit to play Disney tunes than you seriously don’t know anything about good piano playing


I don't hate Lang Lang at all. I think he's a tremendously talented pianist. I think some people dislike him (and Yuja Wang) because of flash and showmanship. And with criticism of Yuja Wang I sometimes detect a little tinge of jealousy over the fact that she's gorgeous and knows it.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

I don’t see why flash and showmanship are a bad thing


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Aren't flash and showmanship irrelevant to the music?


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> I don’t see why flash and showmanship are a bad thing


I don't either really, as long as there's talent and skill to back it up. In classical music it's at least as old as Paganini, Liszt, and Wagner.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I thought you meant "who loves long works of Bach?"


 I heard that is the corrected pronunciation of Lang lang

I was being silly


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

AaronSF said:


> Ugh. Terrible Bach playing, IMO. He's releasing an album of nothing but Disney tunes soon. That's more his speed.


Please can you explain why this is terrible Bach playing? I'm genuinely trying to understand. I've listened to a few different version, this one sounds beautiful to me .


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Please can you explain why this is terrible Bach playing? I'm genuinely trying to understand. I've listened to a few different version, this one sounds beautiful to me .


I don't know the recording in question, but in general one can say, that beautiful playing isn't necessarily good Bach playing. If beauty has got the highest priority other and important characteristics may become underprioritised, counterpoint, balance and agogic rubato eg.


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## OCEANE (10 mo ago)

EvaBaron said:


> I really don’t understand the hate towards Lang Lang on this forum by some members. This is the reason that classical music has the snobbish reputation it has. He’s an incredible pianist and if you think he’s only fit to play Disney tunes than you seriously don’t know anything about good piano playing


You should understand that the hate (and love of cos) towards Lang Lang happens on some other forums, too.


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

OCEANE said:


> You should understand that the hate (and love of cos) towards Lang Lang happens on some other forums, too.


The point was that there was any hate at all, wether on this forum or multiple others


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

EvaBaron said:


> The point was that there was any hate at all, wether on this forum or multiple others


Hate is too strong a word - I prefer obnoxious (at least in Bach).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

premont said:


> If beauty has got the highest priority other and important characteristics may become underprioritised, counterpoint, balance and agogic rubato eg.


Counterpoint? What can a performer playing only what's written on score do to change that?
"Bringing out individual lines"? It's an unHIP practice to begin with. Bach played and composed his keyboard music on the harpsichord and organ, instruments incapable of expressing gradations of dynamics. Where did Bach give instructions for Tempo Rubato? Bach isn't Chopin.
Balance? Is this an concept unrelated to beauty?


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Bulldog said:


> Hate is too strong a word - I prefer obnoxious (at least in Bach).


Hate is a strong word, but not a bad word.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Counterpoint? What can a performer playing only what's written on score do to change that?
> "Bringing out individual lines"? It's an unHIP practice to begin with. Bach played and composed his keyboard music on the harpsichord and organ, instruments incapable of expressing gradations of dynamics. Where did Bach give instructions for Tempo Rubato? Bach isn't Chopin.
> Balance? Is this an concept unrelated to beauty?


Yes, to display the counterpoint one must "bring out the individual lines" (your term) by shaping them individually using phrasing and articulation and of course _not_ dynamic variation, which as you know was impossible on the harpsichord.

Writing balance I intend to say that all voices should be at the same dynamic level unless otherwise stated, and polyphonic music should not emphasize the upper voice dynamically unless it is stated to be played on a "stronger" manual, but many pianists play the top voice with more volume, as if it were a solo voice (I do not know with Lang).

Rubato must of course be used with discretion, otherwise one might associate with Chopin. The purpose of rubato is to use it as an expressive tool and to avoid mechanical sewing machine playing. Rubato has not been discussed by Bach himself, but by some others eg. Frescobaldi (preface to toccatas vol.I - on the whole Frescobaldi's "rules" are good to read). I think it's misguided to think that Bach played eg. his toccatas (which owes rather much to the Italian keyboard toccata) without rubato. And when Bach mentions cantabile style of playing in the preface to his inventions, this seems to exclude a mechanical rendering.


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## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> Hate is too strong a word - I prefer obnoxious (at least in Bach).


Sometimes I think Bach would like this type of expression. Sometimes I think he would find it irreverent. Can we ever know?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> The version of the variation I posted seems much nicer to that of Gould's. I guess Gould is either loved or hated. I'm starting to see why he might not be liked. Is he just seen to be butchering it?


I find the two Lang Lang excerpts overdone, the first one is borderline o.k. but the second way too slow and romanticized. 
One can play e.g. the Goldbergs more lyrical than e.g. Gould but not overly romanticized, try e.g. Dershavina or Koroliov. I'd have to re-listen to Maria Tipo, I think the most "romantic" Bach I have but I don't remember her GBV well.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

premont said:


> shaping them individually using *phrasing and articulation*


Yeah, something every renowned performer does with Bach. Are you saying this is somehow the antithesis to "playing beautifully" though?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bulldog said:


> Hate is too strong a word - I prefer obnoxious (at least in Bach).


_“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference_."


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## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

hammeredklavier said:


> _“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference_."


Terrible quote, for example I hate people who rape other people


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

hammeredklavier said:


> Yeah, something every renowned performer does with Bach. Are you saying this is somehow the antithesis to "playing beautifully" though?


Of course not, but with your kind of argumentation I'm not going to discuss this further with you!


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> _“The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference_."


Not True.

It is right to hate things which are evil.


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