# Well, let's do this then...



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

There is poll above - vote, if you would, kindly then. :tiphat:

There is no "other" option for this poll on purpose, you can either vote or not vote; if you do not wish to vote you may file a complaint on the poll design with the idon'tgiveadamn department, floor 12.


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Oh, wow. Okay. Well, though I know I won't win here, I VOTE MOZART.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Wagner may be the greatest opera composer of all time, but Mozart is the greatest composer period, sparing only Bach. 

But really, not all of Mozart's operas are the perfect creations that Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro are. Le Nozze di Figaro is my favorite opera and musical work of all time though, so as you see, it really all depends on where we end up narrowing it down to!


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Air said:


> But really, not all of Mozart's operas are the perfect creations that Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro are.


Granted. But every composer wrote some music that is less perfect than their most perfect works, even Wagner.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> Granted. But every composer wrote works less perfect than their most perfect works, even Wagner.


BLASPHEMY


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Couchie said:


> BLASPHEMY


 Perhaps. Perhaps. I could be considerably more blasphemous about Wagner (whom I do actually like, btw).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Meaghan said:


> Granted. But every composer wrote some music that is less perfect than their most perfect works, even Wagner.


I think one can arguably make a case for Berlioz being an exception to your rule. I don't know all of Berlioz, but everything that I do know, I love.

Now, as for the poll above, I'm a little unsure. First of all, I think Handel could have been listed there as a contender as well.

But so be it, this is Couchie's poll and he chose to make it with three options, fine with me.

My problem is, how do I pick one of the three? They are all three great in their own ways.

I'm sure Verdi has no chance, he is often underestimated, but I do think he is as good as Wagner and Mozart. How can one pick between Wagner and Mozart? They are so vastly different, and both so darn good!

Oh well, if I absolutely must pick only one, then it will be Wagner. Barely. With Verdi and Mozart and Handel tied for close second. And Berlioz would be there too, if he had composed more than 3 operas and 1 opera/oratorio, all four sublime masterpieces.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I swear I made this a public results poll... did somebody unpublicizerize it?


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Couchie said:


> I swear I made this a public results poll... did somebody unpublicizerize it?


I can see who voted for what by clicking on the numbers of votes next to the percentages.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Couchie said:


> I swear I made this a public results poll... did somebody unpublicizerize it?


No, that's how public results polls look like. You have to click on the numbers to see a list of voters for each option.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> No, that's how public results polls look like. You have to click on the numbers to see a list of voters for each option.


Ah I see! Unintuitive. But now I know whose houses to egg.


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

The question was about OPERA composer! If it's about music composers, Mozart is by far the greatest from the three, but if we talk only about opera, Verdi is ahead.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sabrina said:


> The question was about OPERA composer! If it's about music composers, Mozart is by far the greatest from the three, but if we talk only about opera, Verdi is ahead.


I don't know, Sabrina, I see these three pretty much tied for first place, and I'd add Handel. Mozart was a formidable opera composer as well. He died young, but still managed to compose 22 operas. I love Verdi, don't read me wrong, but Mozart is my opinion is just as good an opera composer, and so is Wagner (who got my vote).

Mozart's operas are not just the "big four." Listen, for instance, to this aria from the much less well known Il Re Pastore, with a beautiful violin legato:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Puccini, so I won;t vote. Of the three listed, Wagner by far.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Got to be Joe


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm not an expert, but it has to be Mozart. He really got the ball rolling vis a vis composing operas that were not just mere entertainment. Wasn't _Don Giovanni_ the first piece of music ever to express the emotion of fear unequivocally? I heard someone say that once in a documentary, and it makes sense to me. The climactic scene when the Don is damned to hell not only has fear, the darkness is palpably and vividly portrayed, in both the vocals and the music. Mozart was really one of the first big innovators in the world of opera. The only other one earlier than him that I think of as equally big in terms especially of innovation and imaginativeness was Monteverdi. & not only were Mozart's dramatic operas so advanced, so were his comic/light operas. Of the three in Couchie's poll, I would argue that Wolfgang Amadeus had the broadest range in the operatic realm. That's not denying the impacts that Verdi's and Wagner's masterpieces made, but I'm sure those two giants would have at least tipped their hats to the Austrian any day, and probably would have at least admired & found not a single fault in the score of _Don Giovanni_...


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Can't decide, all three so great. <3 Ring and Don Giovanni are in my top 3 but there's a lot of Verdi in my top 10. Although lately I've been a bit unfaithful to Italians in favour of Wagner and Britten.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Between the three, from someone who so far is indifferent to opera but has listened to operas from all three because I want to be somewhat well-informed, Mozart is the only one whose operas I actually enjoy hearing, so that accomplishment makes him the greatest, at least in my house.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I voted for Verdi, but Beethoven will always be my Number One!


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Mozart. I've learned otherwise since, but when I first got into Mozart everything else sounded clumsy in comparison.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I think it's obvious that the greatest fellow of those who composed operas is the one whose talent, vision and determination decided that the deepest, most moving and stunning works of all time will belong to genre of opera placing it above all instrumental music. 

This man was Bob Dylan.

No, wait.

It was Wagner.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Difficult but I've gone for Wagner because his legacy benefits from his avoiding being over-prolific - from Flying Dutchman onwards his output was nigh-on flawless and I have to give him credit for not relying on a librettist so he had to put even more effort into his works. Mozart's mature operas are great and had he lived I'm sure he could have upped the ante of the time even further. Verdi composed as many great operas as Wagner but his conveyor-belt methods during the early-middle part of his career meant that he seemed to produce too much that teetered on being borderline mediocre in comparison to his numerous triumphs.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Aramis said:


> I think it's obvious that the greatest fellow of those who composed operas is the one whose talent, vision and determination decided that the deepest, most moving and stunning works of all time will belong to genre of opera placing it above all instrumental music.
> 
> This man was Bob Dylan.


He probably could write a great libretto.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Yeah, I can imagine Pavarotti singing "If I die on the top of the hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill..."


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Speaking with folks who have a broad experience with opera, I consistently find that there are four composers who are the regulars amongst "tier one" of opera composers; namely, *Handel, Mozart, Verdi and Wagner*, which I also happen to agree with. This is the elite club. As to which one of these four you end up picking as your personal favourite(s) largely boils down to your own preference.

Having said that and given the imcomplete list above, I would pick Mozart.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Arriving on the scene to put in my predictable vote for Wagner.

I'll furnish what I consider to be the decisive predictable reason- and that is that Wagner's influence on the world of Art extends far beyond just music- and that's what separates him form the rest.

I do have sympathy for those who've mentioned Puccini as well- I believe he is no less deserving than Verdi to have a place on the ballot.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Ludwig van Beethoven


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Can't vote for anyone because can't gather all the operas and opera composers in the same place: Italian Opera is quite different in style, German and French and so on ... and It's not only the style, the timeline is also important . So can't compare so easily to select the greatest. For me Boris Godunov is a unique number. I love it more than any other opera, but does it mean that I think Moussorgsky is the greatest opera composer of all time ?


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

And I break the tie with Mozart!!! Wagner pulls ahead for the lead!


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

mcamacho said:


> Ludwig van Beethoven


Fidelio is that good, huh?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Trout said:


> Fidelio is that good, huh?


Fidelio is good, in spite of a couple of problems, but of course, the fact that he stopped at one opera doesn't allow Beethoven to be considered among the top opera composers. For someone who had never tried his hand at opera before, however, Fidelio is a quite surprising work.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Damn tough choice: Mozart or Wagner. I am a sworn Wagnerian. My favorite composer of the 20th century was Wagner's clear heir: Richard Strauss. I am certain that the Ring is an unrivaled achievement in the history of opera... if not music (although I'd give Bach the advantage considering the whole of his cantatas). _Tristan und Isolde_ may just be my absolute favorite opera. But then again... so might _Don Giovanni_, _The Magic Flute, Le nozze di Figaro_, or _Cosi fan tutte_. As Andre suggested, Mozart brought opera to a level of artistic, theatrical, and musical achievement that virtually established opera as we know it today... or as it was known up 'til Wagner. Damn!

Eenie... Meanie... Miney... Moe...


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

I did not expect Verdi to be so far behind... how is he losing? Aïda.. Otello... Simon Boccanegra... La Traviata... Don Carlo... Il Trovatore... Rigoletto..... seriously? I don't understand these poll results at all.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> I did not expect Verdi to be so far behind... how is he losing? Aïda.. Otello... Simon Boccanegra... La Traviata... Don Carlo... Il Trovatore... Rigoletto..... seriously? I don't understand these poll results at all.


Verdi's great. But look at the competition.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Sieglinde said:


> Can't decide, all three so great. <3 Ring and Don Giovanni are in my top 3 but there's a lot of Verdi in my top 10. Although lately I've been a bit unfaithful to Italians in favour of Wagner and Britten.


Well, you did pick the username 'Sieglinde' over 'Donna Anna'...


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## Philmwri (Apr 8, 2011)

Are we all forgetting about Antionio Salieri?


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

How is Mozart in the competition? Are any of his operas other than Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro ever compared to any of the great Verdi or Wagner operas? He's basically a two opera guy. How does that constitute "the greatest opera composer ever"?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> How is Mozart in the competition? Are any of his operas other than Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro ever compared to any of the great Verdi or Wagner operas? He's basically a two opera guy. How does that constitute "the greatest opera composer ever"?


Welcome to TC. You are obviously a new memeber with eight posts so far, and judging by your comment, you seem to lack relatively in-depth knowledge (and perhaps appreciation) of the operas of Mozart. But that's why we encourage members, especially the obviously inexperienced members, to learn and to grow in genres of classical music where they demonstrate inexperience. Now as for Mozart, the standard repertoire around the world (and that says a lot) include several more than the two operas you mentioned. Take a read of the various sources etc. so that your comments might add more credibilty.

Enjoy your stay here at TC.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Welcome to TC. You are obviously a new memeber with eight posts so far, and judging by your comment, you seem to lack relatively in-depth knowledge (and perhaps appreciation) of the operas of Mozart. But that's why we encourage members, especially the obviously inexperienced members, to learn and to grow in genres of classical music where they demonstrate inexperience. Now as for Mozart, the standard repertoire around the world (and that says a lot) include several more than the two operas you mentioned. Take a read of the various sources etc. so that your comments might add more credibilty.
> 
> Enjoy your stay here at TC.


Thank you. I am aware that Mozart is considered one of the greatest ever in terms of opera, and I know others are in the standard repertoire, I've just noticed that when people talk about his "towering masterpieces" the only two they mention are Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro.

And it's true that at this point I am much more into Verdi and Wagner. My brother has tried to convince me that Mozart is ultimately the greatest (or at least one of), and we watched Don Giovanni together, and the operatic style just doesn't appeal to me. It doesn't have the dramatic structure, drive or power of Verdi or Wagner, at least in my view. I don't like the harpsichord-driven, spoken recitative, as opposed to Verdi's musical recitatives or Wagner's.. well.. Wagner doesn't have anything that resembles a recitative. They just don't have the same drama or power as the great operas of his contemporaries.. I feel like the art form wasn't fully developed in the 18th century, so no matter how great Mozart was, his operas can't appeal to me on the same level later ones do.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

macgeek2005 said:


> How is Mozart in the competition? Are any of his operas other than Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro ever compared to any of the great Verdi or Wagner operas? He's basically a *two opera guy*. How does that constitute "the greatest opera composer ever"?


Two operas?!? Cosi fan tutte, Magic Flute, Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail, Idomeneo, La Clemenza di Tito, Mitridate Re di Ponto - all fantastic, although I agree that Don Giovanni and Nozze are his best...

He's a 22 opera guy, and if he'd lived as long as Verdi who was still composing in his 80s, we'd have probably had a lot more.


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## macgeek2005 (Apr 1, 2006)

If Mozart lived as long as Verdi, the sheer number of masterpieces he would have written between 1792 and 1844, is beyond the imagination. Think about it. Think about what he wrote in just his last five years. Just his last year even! Imagine over 50 More years of Mozart! The thought of it, and the realization of what we lost with his early death, is really hard to comprehend. What would Symphony No. 42 have been? No. 50? No. 80? What about Piano Concerto No. 28? And the operas of course... my gosh. If one really sits with the thought that we Could have had 50 more years of Mozart writing music, and sits with the realization that all that potential music is lost forever... it's almost hard to go on.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> Fidelio is good, in spite of a couple of problems, but of course, the fact that he stopped at one opera doesn't allow Beethoven to be considered among the top opera composers. For someone who had never tried his hand at opera before, however, Fidelio is a quite surprising work.


When you're obsessed with an opera, you're obsessed with an opera (says she with the dozen "_Fidelio_" recordings) . . .


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I voted Wagner, for just about the same reasons as everybody else. I adore Verdi and Mozart as well, but I love Wagner more.

And just to think what Mozart could have done had he lived some 50 years longer.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> Thank you. I am aware that Mozart is considered one of the greatest ever in terms of opera, and I know others are in the standard repertoire, I've just noticed that when people talk about his "towering masterpieces" the only two they mention are Don Giovanni and Le Nozze di Figaro.
> 
> And it's true that at this point I am much more into Verdi and Wagner. My brother has tried to convince me that Mozart is ultimately the greatest (or at least one of), and we watched Don Giovanni together, and the operatic style just doesn't appeal to me. It doesn't have the dramatic structure, drive or power of Verdi or Wagner, at least in my view. I don't like the harpsichord-driven, spoken recitative, as opposed to Verdi's musical recitatives or Wagner's.. well.. Wagner doesn't have anything that resembles a recitative. They just don't have the same drama or power as the great operas of his contemporaries.. I feel like the art form wasn't fully developed in the 18th century, so no matter how great Mozart was, his operas can't appeal to me on the same level later ones do.


Sorry macgeek2005, but while I wouldn't be as incisive as our esteemed baroque fan HarpsichordConcert who seems to have reacted with shock to your dislike of Mozart, you do need to explore the other 20 operas by Mozart to understand the full scope of his operatic genius. Apparently you saw two of his comic operas and didn't feel the same drama or power, but he also did compose several serious and highly dramatic operas. 22 in total, many of them sublime. And this, I'm saying while being a huge Verdi fan myself. But yes, these two - Wagner and Mozart - are definitely as good as Verdi - I'd add Handel as well, to make a top 4 that are all very close to each other in terms of quality.

And no, his towering operas are not just these two; most people would include at the very least four more: Così fan Tutte, The Magic Flute, Idomeneo, and The Abduction from the Serail, and the cognoscenti would include others as well. Like others said, you have to also consider how young Mozart was when he died. Had he lived to Verdi's old age, we'd have had many other masterpieces to enjoy. Such a pity!

I'd actually support Il Penseroso's position here: it is practically impossible to establish a rank of these four composers. They are all four great in their own styles, and are definitely the Tier 1 of opera composers. There are other great opera composers around, like Puccini (I personally don't like Puccini that much but recognize his quality and importance), Donizetti, Richard Strauss, Berlioz, Rossini, etc - but it is hard to say that any of them can arguably be included in a top tier that has Wagner, Mozart, Verdi, and Handel. These four are just in another category - the Hors Concours category, and very much equally so, and any attempt to say that one is better than the other three becomes a question of personal taste. I did pick Wagner for the vote above, but could just as comfortably have picked Verdi or Mozart - or Handel if the original poster had included him.

If you don't like the sound of harpsichord-driven recitative, it is true that you won't like Mozart as much (what could he do, that was the style when he was alive) but his operatic music has many other pearls beyond the recitative parts - spectacular overtures, exquisitely beautiful arias, duos, and ensembles, incredible pace and rhythm, beautiful orchestration...

You know, at one point I didn't like the sound of a harpsichord myself, and didn't have an appreciation for Bach, for example, for this very reason. Then little by little I came to accept the harpsichord, in great measure because of my growing appreciation for baroque opera. Nowadays I don't mind it at all, and I came to love baroque opera with a passion.

This did not decrease in any way my love for Italian 19th century opera. There is space for everything. I consider myself an opera lover, period, from the most ancient one I know (L'Orfeo) to the most recent one (The Minotaur) spanning more than 400 years, and including ALL subgenres up to serialism, contemporary opera, etc. But it wasn't like this for me when I started. Initially, only the more melodious Italianate operas appealed to me. Now I have learned to appreciate them all - I mean, the good representatives of each period, of course there are also mediocre operas out there that I don't care for.

So, I strongly encourage you to not give up on Mozart. There is no rush, you can continue to enjoy the styles that you currently prefer, but do explore some more Mozart from time to time, and I'm sure it will grow on you. It always does. It's just too good to fail.

By the way, there is no such think as a spoken recitative. It's either recitative, or spoken dialogue. Most Mozart operas have recitative, but others like The Magic Flute have spoken dialogue, since it belongs to the subgenre Singspiel, which includes song and spoken lines (other subgenres with spoken dialogue include operettas, zarzuelas, and opéra comique - Carmen is an example of the latter, which unlike its name suggests, doesn't need to be comedic). Recitative can be secco (accompanied by just basso continuo such as that provided by a harpsichord) or accompagnato (with more elaborate orchestration), and there is also arioso, which is a type of recitative that is more melodious and approaches an aria.

You'll see that the question of recitative has progressively evolved in opera - from the recitative-aria-recitative-aria secco style of the baroque, to scenes with four arias linked together (Verdi started this), to through-composed operas in which the difference disappears (you'll recognize Wagner and late Verdi there), to modernist and contemporary operas that practically don't use arias any longer and basically either use at most arioso or most of the time almost plain declamation (you'll recognize there works like Pelléas et Mélisande, Peter Grimes, up to very recent works like The Minotaur).

Appreciation for different genres, periods, and styles is a slow progression.

Welcome to the Opera subforum, do stick around, and let us know where your explorations take you.:tiphat:


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

I voted Mozart, but if the question had been worded as "favorite" instead of "greatest", I think I would have gone with Donizetti.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Yep, I'd rank Donizetti as my next favorite opera composer after these three, Handel, and Berlioz.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

macgeek2005 said:


> If Mozart lived as long as Verdi, the sheer number of masterpieces he would have written between 1792 and 1844, is beyond the imagination. Think about it. Think about what he wrote in just his last five years. Just his last year even! Imagine over 50 More years of Mozart! The thought of it, and the realization of what we lost with his early death, is really hard to comprehend. What would Symphony No. 42 have been? No. 50? No. 80? What about Piano Concerto No. 28? And the operas of course... my gosh. If one really sits with the thought that we Could have had 50 more years of Mozart writing music, and sits with the realization that all that potential music is lost forever... it's almost hard to go on.


People often say this sort of thing about Mozart and Schubert (and about other composers) without actually bothering to get to know more than a fraction of the works that they _did_ write. I'm not accusing you personally of this; I have no idea how familiar you are with Mozart's works. But it does get a bit ridiculous after a while, to keep hearing people fantasize about Mozart's next opera and Beethoven's Tenth Symphony when there are plenty of real works by these composers that they haven't bothered listening to yet.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Webernite said:


> People often say this sort of thing about Mozart and Schubert (and about other composers) without actually bothering to get to know more than a fraction of the works that they _did_ write during their lifetimes. I'm not accusing you personally of this; I have no idea how familiar you are with Mozart's works. But it does get a bit ridiculous after a while, to keep hearing people fantasize about Mozart's next opera and Beethoven's Tenth Symphony when there are plenty of real works by these composers that they haven't bothered listening to yet.


I do own all 22 operas by Mozart and have been exploring them little by little, but even though I'm still far from hearing them all, I can understand such feeling, because there is a clear and progressive quality increase - his latest operas (with the exception of Clemenza di Tito which was put together in a hurry) are a lot better than the earlier ones, and since I do know all of the latest/most important ones that he composed, I can't help but think that I'd love to have some five to ten moreof that exceptional, almost unmatched level of quality to enjoy.

Seriously, after the perfection he achieved with the big four, can you imagine more of the same, I mean, more of this level of quality? If he had composed ten more after mastering his operatic art like he did at the end of his life, other composers would have lots of trouble getting into a list of top ten operas of all times; even Wagner and Verdi might have been overwhelmed if Mozart had composed opera for another 40 years.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I do own all 22 operas by Mozart and have been exploring them little by little, but even though I'm still far from hearing them all, I can understand such feeling, because there is a clear and progressive quality increase - his latest operas (with the exception of Clemenza di Tito which was put together in a hurry) are a lot better than the earlier ones, and since I do know all of the latest/most important ones that he composed, I can't help but think that I'd love to have some five to ten moreof that exceptional, almost unmatched level of quality to enjoy.


Well, I find myself agreeing with your specific point about Mozart's operas, but I still feel that what I said applies in many other cases. Mozart's last four symphonies are probably his best, for instance; but there are at least six or seven others that can be just as enjoyable, and people should listen to the others before getting quite so teary-eyed that he didn't write more. This is even more true of Schubert, who wrote plenty of really great works before his "late" period, including the Trout Quintet. There are dozens of lesser known masterpieces in Schubert's catalogue for people to explore, if they can be bothered to; same with Brahms, same with Bach.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Yes, Webernite, I think you're right. It's a bit of the grass being always greener on the other side. We're blessed with many great works, and should enjoy them without longing for those that don't exist except in our longings.

Another way to think of this: Verdi almost got killed by Austrian soldiers when he was a baby - they slaughtered women and children who were hiding in a church, but Verdi's mother managed to hide in the bell tower with her baby in her arms and they were spared.

So, we should consider ourselves lucky that we *did* get Verdi's operas, instead of whining about the composers who died young.


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