# Completing Unfinished Works after a Composers' Death



## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

How do people here feel about the completion of certain unfinished works by composers after their deaths? Pieces like Beethoven's 10th, the 6th Pomp and Circumstance March by Elgar or the three act version of Berg's Lulu.

Personally, I usually avoid things like that. I don't see the point, since the composer is dead we'll never know what their original intentions were, no matter how much guesswork we put in. There doesn't seem to be much merit to posthumously completed works besides providing a promotional platform for the individual who finished it.

EDIT: Oh God, I got the apostrophe wrong in the title didn't I.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Some of them I love (Mahler 10, Puccini's Turandot, Mozart Requiem), most of them I don't like (especially Schubert 8, Bruckner 9).


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Unlike the others you mentioned, Lulu was pretty much complete at Berg's death. The only parts that needed filling-in were connective tissue, as for the orchestration of the rest, one could simply refer to how the same music was orchestrated earlier (the third act consists mostly of reminiscences of earlier scenes, in line with the mirror structure of Berg's opera).

Certain things, such as Mahler's 10th, should be taken with a grain of salt and a knowledge of what was done to the composer's original (in that case, the orchestration of four of the movements), but others are more or less unproblematic (does anyone contest Bartok's 3rd concerto because the last 7 bars were orchestrated by a student?).


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

I tend to like them, but - as already mentioned here - the Beethoven´s 10th, Schubert 8th, Tchaikovsky 7th and Bruckner 9th were not successful, IMO. There wasn´t enough content, or there was a lack of stylistic coherence. 

But the Mahler 10th, Mozart Requiem, Elgar´s 3rd, Scriabin´s Mysterium (by Nemtin) ... great art.

Lesser known: Pettersson´s 1st, Gorecki´s 4th (upcoming). 

Possibility: Shostakovich 16th symphony.


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## wzg (Jun 17, 2013)

I like Mahler 10 too, though something more innovative is probably missing in the completed version...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

What do people here think of Bartok's viola concerto?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think a lot depends on how much conjecture goes into a completion and at which points in the composition where work needs to be done - it's probably more satisfactory to put flesh on the existing bones of a work which has the semblance of a beginning, middle and end rather than making artificial limbs in the event of a whole section or sections being missing. 

Rimsky-Korsakov and Glazunov finished the opera Prince Igor which Borodin had been wrestling with for nearly 20 years. The two men had a fair bit to do to flesh the work out but probably did as well as anyone could have done given what gaping holes there still were at Borodin's death - one advantage is that they knew Borodin well so they could, up to a point, 'second guess' what ideas he may have had better than anyone else. The end result did not gain universal favour but whatever the weaknesses I'd rather have that than just the bleeding chunks that Borodin had left us. 

As Mahlerian says, Lulu was near-enough complete at Berg's death. Unfortunately, Berg's widow put a block on any attempt to finish Act III once Schoenberg decided he wouldn't do it. Hats off then to Friedrich Cerha for undertaking the task once Helene Berg died in 1976 - the opera is so intricate and the plot so complex a two-act reduction just wouldn't make sense.

On the other side of the coin, the only other work apart from Schubert's 8th that I think is best left alone is Bach's Art of Fugue - I'm sure attempted completions are well-meaning but the manner in which the music abruptly cuts off during Contrapunctus XIV seems somehow more appropriate (not to say eerie) than a speculative ending or omitting XIV altogether.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2013)

Yardrax said:


> How do people here feel about the completion of certain unfinished works by composers after their deaths? Pieces like Beethoven's 10th, the 6th Pomp and Circumstance March by Elgar or the three act version of Berg's Lulu.
> 
> Personally, I usually avoid things like that. I don't see the point, since the composer is dead we'll never know what their original intentions were, no matter how much guesswork we put in. There doesn't seem to be much merit to posthumously completed works besides providing a promotional platform for the individual who finished it.
> 
> EDIT: *Oh God, I got the apostrophe wrong in the title didn't I*.


You did, and this bodes ill for the rest of this thread. I think I shall play here. [Add 'grinning' icon]


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

With music you can have your cake and eat it too.

I actually love it when the Contrapunctus XIV from The Art of the Fugue just stops abruptly. As elgars ghost says, it's a very eerie comment on the ephemeral nature of our lives. On the other hand I enjoy its completion by various scholars and composers. Each is a little different pointing out the infinite variety of musical possibilities even when one is trying to stay within the strict confines of a specific composer's style and the limiting nature of the fugue as a genre.

I have a copy of "Beethoven's" 10th somewhere but seldom listen. It is nowhere near as interesting as the other 9. I think this is because of the way Beethoven worked, starting with rather banal subjects and slowly working toward the sublime. Finishing might work better with other composers.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't see anything wrong with this. If it works for a listener then great, if not then you don't have to listen to it again. As long as it's made clear it's incomplete and only part composed by the original author. It makes available music that might not otherwise be available. Schubert's 10th has given me some enjoyement in the past.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Adding Luciano Berio's _Rendering_, orchestrating fragments of Schubert's tenth... Berio left the gaps, signaled by the celesta, and wrote music to fill those gaps not at all referential, (or only slightly referential) to Schubert's materials - 'free material' if you will and somewhat haunting that is, like those gaps we accept in an exhibited incomplete antique fresco. I find it very effective.





Mahler's Ten had a very full sketch in particell (multi-stave shorthand for orchestration) of its first movement Adagio, the rest, reconstructed, is far more speculative.

The Berg Lulu, as Mahlerian mentioned, was also nearly complete and in particell, with very little guesswork involved. Nonetheless, such projects require yet another master for their success, and Friedrich Cerha certainly deserves accolades for the superb work done.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Yeh there's always room for different versions as well, another reason not to get that upset by a completion.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> I tend to like them, but - as already mentioned here - the Beethoven´s 10th [...] and Bruckner 9th were not successful, IMO. [...]


There is a big difference between Cooper's (LvB) 10th and the Bruckner 9 'reconstructive surgery' team (Samale/Mazzuca/Phillips/Cohrs 1992, rev. 1996, rev. 2005, rev. 2008, rev. 2011). The difference being the amount of material to be exploited. 
I know both (Cooper and the S/M/P/C team), but will thank anyway Cooper for reviving dusty score fragments (better that than remaining 'unheard' in a museum's collection) and thank equally the S/M/P/C team for providing more than a glimpse of 'what could have been'. That's all; I don't pretend for a moment that these posthumous completions are to be taken as 'the final word'. And we must not forget that nobody is forcing anybody to listen to this stuff.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

At my university recently, an orchestra did the world-premiere of a newly discovered and finished work by Debussy. It was a poem for baritone voice and orchestra, and only like 2 minutes of the music were written, but a musicologist lengthened it to about 10 minutes. Listening to it, I wouldn't have known the difference, it was very authentic sounding, no playing around with fake Debussy motifs.

I heard through a completed version of Mysterium by Scriabin, and it was nice, but hardly late-Scriabin-like. More tonal than I would expect, but who knows. It used some of his systemic tonality, but what was odd was the use of other pieces of music alluded to in the piece, for example a late piano prelude orchestrated and fitting in somewhere in the middle of the 40 minute piece. I don't think Scriabin would have done that.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2013)

starry said:


> I don't see anything wrong with this. If it works for a listener then great, if not then you don't have to listen to it again. As long as it's made clear it's incomplete and only part composed by the original author. It makes available music that might not otherwise be available. Schubert's 10th has given me some enjoyment in the past.


Yes, this is quite fair. Personally, I am really quite happy to hear 'score fragments' brought to life rather than read facsimiles.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I feel there is nothing wrong about it but when they add their own stuff to the music they mess it up like when PAYNE did to
View attachment 19766
ELGAR symphony 3,He should have just completed the movements 1-3 only.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

A relative aside issue:

If you compose, unless you want people recording your first drafts, revisions, etc. and grad students making hay with that material in their thesis, it is wise to destroy any and all written material other than the final completed score.

Still, few can fully anticipate their death, nor should they stop composing in order not to leave incomplete works.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

The completion of Schubert's Symphony no. 10 by Pierre Bartholomee just rocks!! The symphony is just majestic!! I'm currently addicted to it. 






It's Schubert if Schubert wrote Mahler slow movements..


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I mentioned that piece, but I'm more used to Newbould's version (which it's based on) so it may take some getting used to for me.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The only one of these completions I find totally unconvincing is the one by Brian Newbold of the Schubert Unfinished . Only a few bars of the scherzo were written by Schubert, and Newbold completed it. There is no trio section , so he had to compose one . For the finale, he used a section from Schubert's incidental music to "Roasumunde" which happens to be in B minor, the key of the first movement . 
As they say, let sleeping dogs lie .


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

The last 17 bars of Bartok's 3rd Piano Concerto were finished (from Bartok's sketches) by his countryman/pianist Tibor Serly and it is, in my opinion, 120% successful. It is a brilliant conclusion and in keeping with the harmonically conservative aspects of the 3rd in general (as compared to the 1st and 2nd piano concertos).

I'm glad that Puccini/Turandot was finished, and using the material from _Nessum Dorma_ was a good move, but you can really tell where the maestro stopped and the fabricator takes over.

For me, it's a case by case basis and the % of material that is _extrapolated_.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

brianvds said:


> What do people here think of Bartok's viola concerto?


I like the work but don't know it sufficiently well to discuss the relative merits of either the Serly or the P. Bartok/Neubauer completions/revisions.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

peeyaj said:


> The completion of Schubert's Symphony no. 10 by Pierre Bartholomee just rocks!! The symphony is just majestic!! I'm currently addicted to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

davinci said:


> peeyaj said:
> 
> 
> > The completion of Schubert's Symphony no. 10 by Pierre Bartholomee just rocks!! The symphony is just majestic!! I'm currently addicted to it.
> ...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It really depends on how much was actually finished. Is there are extensive sketches then we can be sure that it is roughly based on what the composer intended. Mind you in the case of Mozart's Requiem whole movements had to be added. But it always seems to me pretty successful.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

When somebody is writing completely new material to finish a piece, it should not be attributed to the dead composer because its not their work, its not their decision.


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## AClockworkOrange (May 24, 2012)

For me it depends on the piece in question. My primary issue is that of how much the composer had written before the piece was left unfinished. Unless a piece was almost complete I would rather it be left alone - i.e. I have no problem with slight gaps being bridged but when larger quantities of material are having to be added, it becomes less the work of the original composer. It has to be more than just a fragment for me.

Of what I have heard, I do like the latest four movement performing version of Bruckner's Ninth as performed by Simon Rattle and the BPO. It will never be more than a performing version as it was not finished by the composer but if I understand correctly, it is close to what the composer may have intended. Likewise, I have no issue with the three act Lulu.

However, the beauty in this case is that the performing version never replaces the unfinished version - we have both versions available. If we did not have both versions available then I would be opposed to a work being finished, but thankfully this is not the case.


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## davinci (Oct 11, 2012)

DavidA said:


> It really depends on how much was actually finished. Is there are extensive sketches then we can be sure that it is roughly based on what the composer intended. Mind you in the case of Mozart's Requiem whole movements had to be added. But it always seems to me pretty successful.


In the case of Schubert's 10th, no it's not his 10th symphony, but I believe there were 2 complete movements with partial orchestration. I think there should be more notations or disclaimers included with theses albums as to what was reconstructed, the liner notes are always very vague. 
But the Bartholomee sounds very Shubertian to me.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Eh, for me it all depends on if they are working with material left behind vs just writing their own original music. I.E. I found a reconstruction of Bach's Contrapunctus 14 from the art of fugue, and it sounded way to calculated. It was painful to transition from Bach's transcendental music to music that (almost painfully obvious) sounded like a computer wrote.


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## Namito (Oct 12, 2012)

If possible, I would love to listen to both unfinished version and the finished version. I think both will have different tastes.


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