# Missa Solemnis



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It has been commented that Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ is "strange" - it uses none of the forms that are the composer's main strengths. Neither sonata-allegros, theme-and-variations, ABA, rondos, nor other staple forms of Beethoven's oeuvre are found. Instead, the music is through-composed to match the text, even (or especially) in the Credo, where other composers of the time often quickly passed over the rather complex story being told. It's as if Beethoven, by dealing in such detail with the heart of the Nicene creed, is emphasizing his late-life return to traditional Catholicism.

Musically, a good performance is overwhelming. It's easy to imagine a ceremonial pause at the end of the Credo where singers overcome by the stresses of the gigantic fugue on _Et vitam venturi saeculi_ are removed from the stage for recovery.

The music continues, selected and played by my wife.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)




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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Beethoven: Missa solemnis.

Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827):
Missa solemnis in D major, op.123
I. Kyrie
II. Gloria
III. Credo
IV. Sanctus
V. Agnus Dei

Edda Moser, soprano
Hanna Schwarz, mezzo-soprano 
René Kollo, tenor
Kurt Moll, bass
Grosser Rundfunkchor Hilversum N.O.S.

Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam
Leonard Bernstein

I was there whilst recording was made.
Caballé was supposed to sing the soprano part, send home due to poor voice.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I am on record (along with, apparently, Jame Levine) as considering it the greatest piece of music ever written. I am not particularly religious, but it brings out religious feelings in me more than any other music. That alone elevates late Beethoven to a very rarefied plain.


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm not partial to huge choral works with orchestra, preferring instead Bach's smaller forces. For this reason I'm not enthusiastic about the "Missa Solemnis". Also, it's somewhat dense in its orchestration. Just a personal observation. I don't think anybody has yet eclipsed Bach in this repertoire.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Murdered my voice singing it last summer


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

It's certainly a prime example of Beethoven's refusal to compromise his vision for practicality! Though its originality and sweeping, epic push to the limits of convention are fascinating to hear, I would definitely call it one of Beethoven's least accessible works and hesitate to consider it a masterpiece in my personal pantheon of great works. Some ravishing moments though, like the violin obbligato in the Benedictus. Here is a fascinating essay by Peter Gutmann:

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/missa.html

I've only ever heard the Klemperer recording, figuring I would like it since I'm normally a huge fan of his choral recordings. My initial impressions were that the soloists sounded very strained and uncomfortable, though the gravitas and commitment of the choral singing is pretty amazing. Not sure whether that's due to Beethoven's notoriously difficult vocal writing or this particular performance. Any others to recommend when I decide to give it a shot again?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ...I've only ever heard the Klemperer recording... Any others to recommend when I decide to give it a shot again?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

It once occurred to me as I was watching this Beethoven documentary,
"Ven! tu! ri!" of the Credo sounded like "Bee! tho! ven!"

[ 27:09 ]


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> It's certainly a prime example of Beethoven's refusal to compromise his vision for practicality! Though its originality and sweeping, epic push to the limits of convention are fascinating to hear, I would definitely call it one of Beethoven's least accessible works and hesitate to consider it a masterpiece in my personal pantheon of great works. Some ravishing moments though, like the violin obbligato in the Benedictus. Here is a fascinating essay by Peter Gutmann:
> 
> http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/missa.html
> 
> I've only ever heard the Klemperer recording, figuring I would like it since I'm normally a huge fan of his choral recordings. My initial impressions were that the soloists sounded very strained and uncomfortable, though the gravitas and commitment of the choral singing is pretty amazing. Not sure whether that's due to Beethoven's notoriously difficult vocal writing or this particular performance. *Any others to recommend when I decide to give it a shot again?*


Yes ... while the Klemperer has, and remains, my go to performance, I have found one other which I find equally satisfying. It is an HIP performance but doesn't lose much of what makes the Klemperer so great.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Also see here...


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2020)

That's certainly much better with the period instruments; much more translucent in sound. But did Beethoven actually call for those choral forces? Half the number would have been better. Does anybody know?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

But Beethoven composed for what he had. Would he have wanted modern instruments and larger chorus if he knew about and could have them? Of course we don't know so I have always found it a bit presumptuous to claim that period instruments are de-facto better.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> But Beethoven composed for what he had. Would he have wanted modern instruments and larger chorus if he knew about and could have them? Of course we don't know so I have always found it a bit presumptuous to claim that period instruments are de-facto better.


Yes. It's one of the sillier conceits of HIP enthusiasts that we should perform works with ensembles of the size composers happened to have at their disposal. Since we can't ask them what they'd ideally want, we're free to do whatever sounds good. Fortunately there are now performances to suit nearly every preference. I like both period and modern instrument performances, and am more concerned with the chorus and soloists being up to the job.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Yes. It's one of the sillier conceits of HIP enthusiasts that we should perform works with ensembles of the size composers happened to have at their disposal. Since we can't ask them what they'd ideally want, we're free to do whatever sounds good. Fortunately there are now performances to suit nearly every preference. I like both period and modern instrument performances, and am more concerned with the chorus and soloists being up to the job.


What's possibly even sillier is when people insist we should perform things with smaller forces because that's what the composer had access too when we have letters from said composer requesting more performers for his works because he felt there weren't enough. I do think most people aren't zealots in the HIP wars and can be bribed one way or the other depending on the quality of the performance, which, in the case of the Klemperer performance, is very good; no other recording (that I know of) contains nearly as much gravitas and Elisabeth Schwarzkopf has the voice of an angel and I refuse to even consider all dissenting opinions.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

How about a surgery where the surgeon uses the instruments available in the 19th century.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I'm lenient with most non-HIP except keyboard music. In keyboards, the differences across periods are too large to ignore.







DaveM said:


> How about a surgery where the surgeon uses the instruments available in the 19th century.


art is not science


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Becca said:


> But Beethoven composed for what he had. Would he have wanted modern instruments and larger chorus if he knew about and could have them? Of course we don't know so I have always found it a bit presumptuous to claim that period instruments are de-facto better.


She's not saying they're _de facto_ better. You've created a straw man. Disappointing to see others rising to the bait.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Christabel said:


> That's certainly much better with the period instruments; much more translucent in sound. But did Beethoven actually call for those choral forces? Half the number would have been better. Does anybody know?


When a composer wrote a score for general publication in the C19 he tried to be clear about the sorts of things he thought mattered. If he felt he needed less control, he didn't specify.

We know that Beethoven wanted his Missa Solemnis to be a work which could be performed as an oratorio by poor churches, as well as a mass which could be used in lavish cathedral events.

I've heard it 8 on a part, and liked it very much. But that's just a matter of taste I guess.

We know that Beethoven wanted the mass to create religious feelings in the audience. It's not _primarily_ a piece of celebratory music for a lavish official event. I'm an atheist, so I can't say much about this. In C21 Christianity, are Klemperer's large forces more conducive to religious feelings than, for example, Suzuki's or Harnoncourt's smaller choir? I leave it for others to decide.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

DaveM said:


> How about a surgery where the surgeon uses the instruments available in the 19th century.


Only with people who were born and lived mostly in the 19th Century - for any of them who need surgery it would be better to do it in a HIP way.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> It has been commented that Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ is "strange" - it uses none of the forms that are the composer's main strengths. . . staple forms of Beethoven's oeuvre are [not] found.
> 
> .


I don't know much about Beethoven, but I'd have thought one of his "main strengths" and "staple forms" is fugues. And Missa Solemnis has some of them doesn't it?

I'll give it more time later maybe, but a quick glance at William Drabkin's book suggests that you're not right about sonata form, aba, rondos etc either. But a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Murdered my voice singing it last summer


Yeah, it's pretty deadly to sing. But I have to admit that I didn't really appreciate how great a work the Missa Solemnis is until I participated in a performance.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> Yeah, it's pretty deadly to sing. But I have to admit that I didn't really appreciate how great a work the Missa Solemnis is until I participated in a performance.


Great it may be, but there's too much bombast, too much sledgehammer, and too much mawkishness. Horrible!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Great it may be, but there's too much bombast, too much sledgehammer, and too much mawkishness. Horrible!


The same could be said about Modern music. i wasn't a fan of of the work when I was stuck on my Classical ideal, until after I immersed myself in modern music.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Beethoven: Missa solemnis.
> 
> Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827):
> Missa solemnis in D major, op.123
> ...


That is not what I have heard, she was sometimes undisciplined , when she was to sing at the KCO with Bernstein Beethoven's Missa solemnis, she was sent away at the first rehearsal because she didn't know her party.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Bourdon said:


> That is not what I have heard, she was sometimes undisciplined , when she was to sing at the KCO with Bernstein Beethoven's Missa solemnis, she was sent away at the first rehearsal because she didn't know her party.


I heard the same rumor, later it was denied but one thing for sure, she was send packing.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

The _Missa Solemnis_ is one my favorite compositions by Beethoven and, as such, one of my favorites overall. I love, love it, particularly the _Sanctus/Benedictus_ with that divinely beautiful violin solo and those awesome fugues in the Gloria and Credo. My favorite performance at the moment is by Giulini.



hammeredklavier said:


> It once occurred to me as I was watching this Beethoven documentary,
> "Ven! tu! ri!" of the Credo sounded like "Bee! tho! ven!"


Interesting that it happens to you too. I've always though of this as a deliberate signature in sound of the composer in what at the time he may have perceived as his magnum opus.



MarkW said:


> I am on record (along with, apparently, Jame Levine) as considering it the greatest piece of music ever written. I am not particularly religious, but it brings out religious feelings in me more than any other music. That alone elevates late Beethoven to a very rarefied plain.


Nice to know that Levine is an enthusiast of this piece. I think that his Mozart symphonies set is impeccable and like his _Das Rheingold_, and am now curious about his _Missa Solemnis_. By the way, which is/are your favorite recording(s) of it?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

It is a work of immense genius which is written 'from the heart to the heart'. Any perfreoamnce must convey this and the two that do for me most of all are Karajan on DG and EMI both with Janowitz as the unmatched soprano.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> She's not saying they're _de facto_ better. You've created a straw man. Disappointing to see others rising to the bait.


I suggest that you had better parse my statement a bit more carefully as I did not make that statement, I said that "I have always found..."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> She's not saying they're _de facto_ better. You've created a straw man. Disappointing to see others rising to the bait.


What bait? Who's rising? The questions of what size of ensemble Beethoven had in mind for the _Missa,_ whether it matters, and how any of us prefer to hear it, seem worth considering.

But you've said you find the work bombastic and mawkish. Now there's some bait someone might rise to!


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

For me, HIP is a nice choice to have. I don't get the whole "HIP vs. modern" argument. It is like arguing about chocolate vs. vanilla ice cream.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Forsooth said:


> For me, HIP is a nice choice to have. I don't get the whole "HIP vs. modern" argument. It is like arguing about chocolate vs. vanilla ice cream.


Can I have the vanilla ice cream with a little chocolate on top please.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DaveM said:


> How about a surgery where the surgeon uses the instruments available in the 19th century.


Give me your lighter so I can sterilize it!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Murdered my voice singing it last summer


I heard another singer calling the Missa Solemnis the Solemn Mess. I think it's better to hear than to sing. .


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Great it may be, but there's too much bombast, too much sledgehammer, and too much mawkishness. Horrible!


Yes, a lot of what you say is true - but I wouldn't describe it as 'horrible'. Definitely not. It does about the same for me as Mahler's huge forces; not much. Less is always more. Same for Berlioz et al. Personal choice. I'm not a fan of the last movement of Beethoven's 9th for much the same reason, though the rest of the symphony is absolutely stunning.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Christabel said:


> *Yes, a lot of what you say is true* - but I wouldn't describe it as 'horrible'. Definitely not. It does about the same for me as Mahler's huge forces; not much. Less is always more. Same for Berlioz et al. Personal choice. I'm not a fan of the last movement of Beethoven's 9th for much the same reason, though the rest of the symphony is absolutely stunning.


It's true for you two, that is. I find this mass very far from being bombastic or mawkish, although I agree that it's strong, solemn, great. It's difficult to play and perhaps it's a challenge for some listeners, but this is also true for other late Beethoven. By the way, prefering huge or small forces is a matter of taste - personally, I like both choices.



Manxfeeder said:


> I heard another singer calling the Missa Solemnis the Solemn Mess. I think it's better to hear than to sing. .


Perhaps he needs to develop more his skills before trying to sing it?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Rosen suggested it is Beethoven's greatest work. He felt the classical style is not as well suited towards religious works which is why classical composers would generally imitate baroque techniques in creating their sacred works. Beethoven created what he felt was a true sacred masterpiece in the classical style.

This said I don't at all agree with Rosen's perception of Mozart's Requiem (he essentially called it 'pastiche'). I have not listened to Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ in full. The parts I did listen to didn't sound good to me.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The recording I have listened to the most -- so am probably most satisfied with -- is Klemperer's. His fugues are thunderously magisterial, and whoever the NPO's Leader was at the time, was heavenly in the Benedictus. (Levine's comment came when he was with the BSO, and celebrated the centennary of the opening of Symphony Hall, which had opened with the Missa.)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

MarkW said:


> The recording I have listened to the most -- so am probably most satisfied with -- is Klemperer's. His fugues are thunderously magisterial, and *whoever the NPO's Leader was at the time*, was heavenly in the Benedictus. (Levine's comment came when he was with the BSO, and celebrated the centennary of the opening of Symphony Hall, which had opened with the Missa.)


It was probably Hugh Bean


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Mandryka said:
> 
> 
> > Great it may be, but there's too much bombast, too much sledgehammer, and too much mawkishness. Horrible!
> ...


I'm not sure why especially you're using "modern music" as an analogy in your defense of Beethoven.
You could substitute "modern music" in your sentence with "Tchaikovsky" (for example) and still make perfect sense.

After all it was Beethoven himself who complained about the "dissonance and chromaticism" in Louis Spohr's music, and commented "zu wild und furchtbar" in regards to Mozart's Requiem. (He supposedly thought requiems should be consolatory, like Cherubini's.)

I'm troubled by the constant "if you don't get/like Haydn or Mozart, you blame on the composer. But if you don't get/like Beethoven, you blame on the listener" mentality of some members.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

tdc said:


> Rosen suggested it is Beethoven's greatest work. He felt the classical style is not as well suited towards religious works which is why classical composers would generally imitate baroque techniques in creating their sacred works. Beethoven created what he felt was a true sacred masterpiece in the classical style.
> This said I don't at all agree with Rosen's perception of Mozart's Requiem (he essentially called it 'pastiche'). I have not listened to Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ in full. The parts I did listen to didn't sound good to me.


I too think Rosen is wrong again, (like how he completely ignored Mendelssohn when he called Chopin "the greatest contrapuntist since Mozart"). The Classical liturgical style is not any more pastiche to the Baroque than the Baroque is to the Renaissance and the Classical opera is to the Baroque opera. On one side, Mozart and Haydn are aesthetically close to Bach and Handel, but on the other side, they're also somewhat close to Beethoven in affect.
I think the way Credo of Mozart's Missa brevis in C "Credo" K257 opens somewhat anticipates that of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.

[5:30]









("Its name derives from the long setting of the Credo, in which the word "Credo" is repeatedly sung in a two-note motif. It thus joins a tradition of so-called "Credo Masses", including Mozart's own Kleine Credo Messe (K. 192) and Beethoven's later Missa solemnis." -[Stauffer, George B. (2003). Bach - The Mass in B Minor: The Great Catholic Mass. p. 103.])

Mozart once wrote to his father: "musical taste is continually changing and what is more, this extends even to church music, which ought not to be the case."


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

tdc said:


> Rosen suggested it is Beethoven's greatest work. He felt the classical style is not as well suited towards religious works which is why classical composers would generally imitate baroque techniques in creating their sacred works. *Beethoven created what he felt was a true sacred masterpiece in the classical style.*


This may explain why Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is my favorite mass.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

tdc said:


> Rosen suggested it is Beethoven's greatest work. He felt the classical style is not as well suited towards religious works which is why classical composers would generally imitate baroque techniques in creating their sacred works. Beethoven created what he felt was a true sacred masterpiece in the classical style.
> 
> This said I don't at all agree with Rosen's perception of Mozart's Requiem (he essentially called it 'pastiche'). I have not listened to Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ in full. The parts I did listen to didn't sound good to me.


Though I don't agree that the _Missa_ is Beethoven's greatest work (if I had to choose, which fortunately I don't, I'd go for the late quartets), Rosen's other remarks correspond to my own feelings. I have never felt that the characteristic styles of the Classical era suited sacred music as well as the styles of earlier and, to a lesser extent, later eras. Did Rosen actually use the word "pastiche" to describe the Mozart Requiem? I wouldn't go that far, although I've felt from my first hearing of it a certain stylistic incongruity between its baroquish and its more purely classical elements. Hammeredklavier quotes Mozart in post #41: "musical taste is continually changing and what is more, this extends even to church music, which ought not to be the case." So did Mozart agree that the "taste" of his own time was not well-suited to religious music? Is that why he created the stylistic mix he did in his choral music? Beethoven might have felt similarly, but his _Missa Solemnis_ has not a whiff of pastiche; as he does in other late works, he achieves in effect a new style that fuses ingredients from several centuries into something integral and distinctive.

I can't think of the _Missa_ as Beethoven's greatest work, since at times I think I can hear him trying too hard, reaching for the unattainable, never becomng truly bombastic but threatening to become so. Still, a near miss in late Beethoven is beyond what most others can do at their best. I've sung the work, and it was a tremendously moving experience; viewing its vast landscape "from the inside" left me in no doubt of its stature.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Did Rosen actually use the word "pastiche" to describe the Mozart Requiem?


I think Rosen's comments are an example of how even the most erudite scholars can still be subject to have certain limitations like the rest of us based on their own tastes. I could tell by the way he described the baroque aesthetic in general his tastes leaned heavily towards the classical style.

Essentially the way he described Mozart's Requiem was that it was the kind of work Mozart composed in a rather care free manner using elements of pastiche, and that he copied aspects of Handel's approach but that Handel used his choruses in more imaginative ways.

Suffice to say I don't agree with his over all assessment and as I've stated before I consider it among my favorite Mozart works. Admittedly, my tastes lean more to the baroque aesthetic in general and that is no doubt part of the reason I hold the Requiem in such high regard.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The Sussmayr completion is a pastiche of Mozart’s style.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Christabel said:


> Yes, a lot of what you say is true - but I wouldn't describe it as 'horrible'. Definitely not. It does about the same for me as Mahler's huge forces; not much.


It's a bit like Mahler 8.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

DaveM said:


> How about a surgery where the surgeon uses the instruments available in the 19th century.


... a HIP-replacement, naturally.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Though I don't agree that the _Missa_ is Beethoven's greatest work (if I had to choose, which fortunately I don't, I'd go for the late quartets), Rosen's other remarks correspond to my own feelings. I have never felt that the characteristic styles of the Classical era suited sacred music as well as the styles of earlier and, to a lesser extent, later eras. Did Rosen actually use the word "pastiche" to describe the Mozart Requiem? I wouldn't go that far, although I've felt from my first hearing of it a certain stylistic incongruity between its baroquish and its more purely classical elements. Hammeredklavier quotes Mozart in post #41: "musical taste is continually changing and what is more, this extends even to church music, which ought not to be the case." So did Mozart agree that the "taste" of his own time was not well-suited to religious music? Is that why he created the stylistic mix he did in his choral music? Beethoven might have felt similarly, but his _Missa Solemnis_ has not a whiff of pastiche; as he does in other late works, he achieves in effect a new style that fuses ingredients from several centuries into something integral and distinctive.
> 
> I can't think of the _Missa_ as Beethoven's greatest work, since at times I think I can hear him trying too hard, reaching for the unattainable, never becomng truly bombastic but threatening to become so. Still, a near miss in late Beethoven is beyond what most others can do at their best. I've sung the work, and it was a tremendously moving experience; viewing its vast landscape "from the inside" left me in no doubt of its stature.


Why are you guys all talking as if Missa Solemnis is in the classical style? I've always bracketed it with stuff like Liszt's Requiem and Die Legende von der Heiligen Elisabeth.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm not sure why especially you're using "modern music" as an analogy in your defense of Beethoven.
> You could substitute "modern music" in your sentence with "Tchaikovsky" (for example) and still make perfect sense.
> 
> After all it was Beethoven himself who complained about the "dissonance and chromaticism" in Louis Spohr's music, and commented "zu wild und furchtbar" in regards to Mozart's Requiem. (He supposedly thought requiems should be consolatory, like Cherubini's.)
> ...


I'm troubled by your constant wild paraphrasing of others . I said what i did to Mandryka as a tease, as I know he/she is a big fan of Modern music, but also that it was true in helping me appreciate some later Beethoven.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm troubled by your constant wild paraphrasing of others . I said what i did to Mandryka as a tease, as I know he/she is a big fan of Modern music, but also that it was true in helping me appreciate some later Beethoven.


The kind of impression I sometimes get from your posts is that you tend to talk of other people's experiences based on your own, as if you know them and it's inevitable they'll eventually end up in the same way as you.

I also have had various "phases" in my exploration of classical music. You don't know them and I don't know yours. I wouldn't presume to talk as if I knew all of them and the "inevitable course" you'll take.
If someone simply tells me prefers Beethoven (not discussing history or influence or anything like that), I would not tell him: "Aren't you tired of the way Beethoven "hesitates" what he tries to say or artificially "overwork" his material to somehow "compensate" for it ? Shouldn't you be tired of the _Beethovenian ideals_ by now?" Instead, I'll respect his views in still preferring Beethoven.

I don't think Beethoven always needs to be elevated or glorified for what he did compared to his Classical predecessors. You could maybe cite lecture videos or documents that discuss about good things about the Beethoven work, if you want more people to appreciate it. You can just talk about what's good about the work in itself, not always comparing what he did compared to his Classical predecessors.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> The Sussmayr completion is a pastiche of Mozart's style.


Sussmayr directly quotes Mozart's Spatzenmesse in the Lacrimosa and the Agnus Dei of the Requiem

[ 2:50 ]
[ 6:10 ]














The string figures of Agnus Dei (requiem) somewhat resemble the Qui Tollis of Dominicusmesse K66 as well


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> The kind of impression I sometimes get from your posts is that you tend to talk of other people's experiences based on your own, as if you know them and it's inevitable they'll eventually end up in the same way as you.
> 
> I also have had various "phases" in my exploration of classical music. You don't know them and I don't know yours. I wouldn't presume to talk as if I knew all of them and the "inevitable course" you'll take.
> If someone simply tells me prefers Beethoven (not discussing history or influence or anything like that), I would not tell him: "Aren't you tired of the way Beethoven "hesitates" what he tries to say or artificially "overwork" his material to somehow "compensate" for it ? Shouldn't you be tired of the _Beethovenian ideals_ by now?" Instead, I'll respect his views in still preferring Beethoven.
> ...


No, i didn't presume to know Mandryka's experience in the Beethoven, nor would ever expect him/her to come to experience the music the same way as I do. Yes, if I thought Beethoven needed to be elevated or glorified I could maybe cite lecture videos.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Why are you guys all talking as if Missa Solemnis is in the classical style? I've always bracketed it with stuff like Liszt's Requiem and Die Legende von der Heiligen Elisabeth.


Why is your question directed at me? I said "he achieves in effect a new style that fuses ingredients from several centuries into something integral and distinctive."

Some of your own descriptions of the _Missa_ are...peculiar.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ndndndndndndndndndndnd


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> It has been commented that Beethoven's _Missa Solemnis_ is "strange" - it uses none of the forms that are the composer's main strengths. Neither sonata-allegros, theme-and-variations, ABA, rondos, nor other staple forms of Beethoven's oeuvre are found. Instead, the music is through-composed to match the text, even (or especially) in the Credo, where other composers of the time often quickly passed over the rather complex story being told. It's as if Beethoven, by dealing in such detail with the heart of the Nicene creed, is emphasizing his late-life return to traditional Catholicism.
> 
> Musically, a good performance is overwhelming. It's easy to imagine a ceremonial pause at the end of the Credo where singers overcome by the stresses of the gigantic fugue on _Et vitam venturi saeculi_ are removed from the stage for recovery.
> 
> The music continues, selected and played by my wife.


Could we say that Beethoven was a non-conformist? His Mass is like no other composer's mass, and his opera while having some elements of opera from the period (spiel) is like no other in that it is more symphonic musically.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Fritz Kobus said:


> *Could we say that Beethoven was a non-conformist?* His Mass is like no other composer's mass, and his opera while having some elements of opera from the period (spiel) is like no other in that it is more symphonic musically.


When he had a portrait painted he was holding a piece of the Missa script. When the artist asked him what movement he wanted he said, "Credo"!


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

Allegro Con Brio writes, "I've only ever heard the Klemperer recording, figuring I would like it since I'm normally a huge fan of his choral recordings... Any others to recommend when I decide to give it a shot again?"

Becca replied, "Yes ... while the Klemperer has, and remains, my go to performance, I have found one other which I find equally satisfying. It is an HIP performance but doesn't lose much of what makes the Klemperer so great." [& Becca recommended a Glossa CD with Daniel Reuss conducting the Orchestra of the 18th Century: https://www.amazon.com/Ludwig-van-B...+solemnis&qid=1578430763&s=music&sr=8-1-fkmr1 ].

Thank you posting a YT clip to the Daniel Reuss performance, I enjoyed it very much. I thought Reuss handled the Sanctus and Benedictus particularly well. I rarely hear the Sanctus performed as vocal chamber music, more or less, in effect. Reuss is one of only a handful conductors on record that pays attention to Beethoven's original score, and doesn't bring the chorus in too soon during the Sanctus. Nor do his four vocal soloists turn the music in an overheated operatic competition, either--especially Carolyn Sampson, who was excellent. Instead, they sing the music as if it were a Renaissance motet or mass with added chamber orchestra, and then with an added violin solo part, and then, altogether, with the chorus. Which is what Beethoven wanted, I believe. As a result, there's nothing whatsoever bombastic about the Sanctus and Benedictus, and I thought the overall balances worked far better that way. I also found the violin solo part to be quite moving, particularly when the violin first enters. There was never a sense that the violinist was forced to compete with an over sized orchestra or chorus in order to be heard.

Here are the only conductors I know that follow Beethoven's original score:

Otto Klemperer (his second recording on EMI, but I've not heard Klemperer's earlier performances from the 1950s), John Eliot Gardiner 1 & 2, Jeffrey Tate, Terje Kvam, and now Daniel Reuss (& I'd be curious if people know any other conductors that can be added to my very short list?).

--Klemperer (EMI): Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqFsseNf80U; Part 2: 



, and Part 3: 



(Klemperer, live in Amsterdam in 1957, which interestingly is faster: 



.)

--Gardiner 1 (period): 



--Gardiner 2 (period): 




--Tate (English Chamber Orchestra): 




--Kvam (The Hanover Band & Oslo Cathedral Choir, period):

Kyrie: 



Gloria: 



Credo: 



Sanctus: 



Agnus Dei: 




--Reuss (period--see Becca's link above).

Every other conductor that I've heard doesn't paid attention to Beethoven's wishes, and therefore I have to believe that that's the great majority of conductors on record, since prior to the period movement, Otto Klemperer was the only conductor to ever record the Missa Solemnis according to Beethoven's original score--as far as I know. The rest either didn't do their homework & study the original score, or they thought they knew better than the composer, I presume.

Which doesn't mean that I'm going to now throw out my treasured Missa Solemnis recordings--from Eugen Jochum in Amsterdam: 



, or Kurt Masur in Leipzig: 



, or Herbert von Karajan's 1st DG recording (whose 4 soloists I like), but at the same time, they don't do what Beethoven asks for in the Sanctus and Benedictus, and therefore, I can't recommend their recordings, either--whatever the merits of these performances may be otherwise; especially to someone that may want to more deeply understand what Beethoven's intentions were in these movements.

In my opinion, the following quote is one of Beethoven's most self-revealing statements: where he expresses his strong aspiration to compose a choral work of a sacred and devotional nature:

"In the old church modes the devotion is divine... May God permit me to express it some day."

I connect this 1809 quote directly to Beethoven's later motivation to compose his Missa Solemnis between 1819 and 1823; especially since he'd already composed his more Haydn influenced Mass in C major, Op. 86, in 1807: which he must have considered at least a partial failure, in comparison to the music of the old church composers, and probably to Haydn, as well. Yet, I've also wondered which "old church" composer or composers Beethoven was referring to, whose "devotion" he considered "divine", or was he simply referring to a general age of church music that he was well steeped in?

I've heard two suggestions made over the years--that it was the style of Palestrina that served as Beethoven's model for his Missa Solemnis (Donald Tovey), and that he was imitating the style of the Flemish masters Josquin Desprez and Johannes Ockeghem (Theodor W. Adorno). I wonder which of these three composers Beethoven was most likely to have heard in his life--my guess is Palestrina, or possibly all three? I'd be most interested to hear a scholar try to prove definitely that it was Desprez and Ockeghem, since I believe Beethoven would have most likely been more keenly interested in the great Franco-Flemish tradition, considering his own Flemish family roots & history, than in the Italian Palestrina; not to mention that I'd consider both Desprez and Ockeghem to be greater and more seminal composers than Palestrina.

I'd start by trying to ascertain which of these three "old church" composers (or any others) were best represented in Baron Gottfired Van Swieten's manuscript library, considering that Van Swieten was Dutch born, and therefore, like Beethoven, had Flemish family roots. In fact, it was Van Swieten that once owned Johannes Vermeer's famous allegorical painting "The Art of Painting", and he is presumably the reason why this great masterpiece now hangs in the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna. So, did Van Swieten also collect manuscripts by the great Flemish masters, Dufay, Ockeghem, and Desprez, as well? in addition to introducing the music of Handel to Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven...

And yet, with all that said!, the Beethoven scholar Barry Cooper, who is responsible editing the new 2019 Bärenreiter edition of the Missa Solemnis, now argues that the solo vocalists don't actually enter at the beginning of the Sanctus according to Beethoven's "autograph" score, but rather the movement begins with the chorus and orchestra and they're only joined later by the 4 solo vocalists in the Benedictus!: 



. Hmmm. I've not heard the mass performed in this way. I wonder if there has been a recorded performance of the new Bärenreiter edition? Most interestingly, the appendix to the edition includes Beethoven's arrangement of the Gregorian chant "Tantum ergo", which "was composed at the same time as the "Missa Solemnis" and most probably stands in a close relation to it".


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

^Beethoven makes interesting use of the dorian mode in a part of his Missa Solemnis, but whats also interesting is Mozart's integration of the Gregorian psalm tone, tonus peregrinus in the Introitus of the Requiem and Maurerische Trauermusik.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Beethoven resorts to the use of church modes in the 9th symphony and the quartet Op. 132 as well as the _Missa._ Hammeredklavier points out that Mozart did so as well. Did Haydn? I can't think of an example.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Two footnotes to Josquin13's long and excellent post earlier:

Re Beethoven's possible influences in the _Missa_, he wrote a friend in 1824: "Pure church music ought to be performed by voices only, except a 'Gloria' or some similar text. For this reason I prefer Palestrina. But it is folly to imitate him without having his genius and religious views; it would be difficult, if not impossible, too, for the singers of today to sing his long notes in a sustained and pure manner."

Second, we often see that painting of Beethoven holding the score of the _Missa_. It's interesting that Beethoven carefully kept a similar portrait of his grandfather, a well-respected musician in his own right, with him throughout his entire life. In that portrait his grandfather is also holding a score, in his case Pergolesi's opera_ La Serva Padrona_.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

A slight aside regarding the aforementioned Klemperer, I do think that Wilhelm Pitz, the chorus master, also deserves to be acknowledged for the brilliant choral singing. Walter Legge picked him to create the Philharmonia Chorus and he directed them for most (all?) of the Klemperer recordings which required a chorus, and that includes the Fidelio, Mahler 2nd and the Brahms Requiem.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

After trying about half a dozen Missa Solemnis recordings, I still like *my first one* the best: Eugene Ormandy.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

KenOC writes, "Two footnotes to Josquin13's long and excellent post earlier:

Re Beethoven's possible influences in the Missa, he wrote a friend in 1824: "Pure church music ought to be performed by voices only, except a 'Gloria' or some similar text. For this reason I prefer Palestrina. But it is folly to imitate him without having his genius and religious views; it would be difficult, if not impossible, too, for the singers of today to sing his long notes in a sustained and pure manner."

That's interesting, I don't recall reading that quote before. If Beethoven "preferred" Palestrina, then obviously he knew Palestrina's music (at least by the early 1820s), and therefore Palestrina becomes the primary choice here as Beethoven's model, at least among Renaissance composers (as much as I might want it to be Josquin and Ockeghem!). However, Beethoven also says that it would "be folly to imitate [Palestrina] without having his genius and religious views" and that it would be "difficult, if not impossible" for the singers of his day to sing "pure" vocal music like Palestrina's. Which suggests that Beethoven wasn't interested in composing music like Palestrina's, though he had enormous respect and admiration for it. I wonder, does Palestrina write in a Dorian style that is more similar to Beethoven's Kyrie and "Et Incarnatus es..." than Gregorian chant is? I ask this question because I did a little research and found another revealing quote: According to Thayer, when Beethoven first began to think about composing his Missa Solemnis in 1818, he wrote in his journal, "In order to write true church music--look for all the plainchants of the monks."

So, it seems that in 1818-19 Beethoven was more focused on early Gregorian chant rather than anything else. Indeed I can recall reading that there are sketches by Beethoven--from early and late in his life--that are more or less harmonizations of the Gregorian "Lamentations of Jeremiah" and "Pange Lingua". Of course, many Renaissance composers set the "Lamentations of Jeremiah" to music (such as Palestrina, Lassus, La Rue, Brumel, Mouton, Victoria, Byrd, White, Jachet of Mantua, etc.), and their compositions would have likely interested Beethoven, if he'd had access to their scores; while Josquin Desprez most notably composed his great last mass, "Missa Pange Lingua" as a kind of fantasia on the Dominican friar Thomas Aquinas's tune, "Pange Lingua Gloriosi". (Josquin based only 4 of his some 16-20 masses on plainsong, and they're among my most favorite works by him. So, I'd be fascinated to know whether or not Beethoven knew the "Missa Pange Lingua"... as it would have strongly interested him, I'd imagine.)

From Beethoven's conversation books, we also know that Beethoven had read the Italian music theorist Gioseffo Zarlino's chapter, "Dell natura, o proprieta dell modi" on the Dorian mode, from Zarlino's 1558 "Le Instituioni Harmoniche" (a book in Prince Lobkowitz's library), which fascinatingly presents the Dorian mode as a "chaste" mode, rather than a solemn one. Hence, in the Credo's "Et incarnatus es du spiritu ex Maria virgine" where Beethoven employs the Dorian mode, it can be seen more as a "chaste" mode connected to the Virgin Mary. Such intense Marian devotion is widespread in both the works of the early monks and many Renaissance composers, especially the Franco-Flemish composers (& here again, my mind turns to Josquin, who scholar William Elders has suggested may have even belonged to a cult or society devoted to Queen Mary, considering that the majority of Josquin's works--both motets and masses--were composed in Marian devotion), but also Palestrina, as well. So, Beethoven's adoption of the Dorian mode in his "Et Incarnatus es..." in relation to the chastity of the Virgin Mary appears to be more in accordance with a whole age of earlier church music--both the early monks and Marian composers--rather than with any one composer. Although, if it were inspired by a single composer, such as Palestrina, then the example that Palestrina set for Beethoven must be viewed as integrally connected to all those monks and church composers that came before him, including Josquin as a primary influence.

As for your other quote about Beethoven's grandfather, I don't know Pergolesi's opera or other music, do you think that Beethoven was influenced by Pergolesi?

Woodduck writes, "Beethoven resorts to the use of church modes in the 9th symphony and the quartet Op. 132 as well as the Missa. Hammeredklavier points out that Mozart did so as well. Did Haydn? I can't think of an example."

Good points. In the op. 132 quartet, which he titled "Sacred song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Divinity in the Lydian mode", both the Lydian & Dorian modes here seem to be connected in Beethoven's mind to the restoration or rejuvenation of the soul and body from fatigue and near death suffering, and in the writing of this particular quartet, to Beethoven's own failing body and recent brush with death. As for the 9th Symphony, earlier in 1818, after he'd been commissioned to compose the symphony in 1817 (by the London Philharmonia society), Beethoven wrote that it was or would be "A pious song in a symphony, in the old modes, Lord God we praise Thee--alleluia."

"Did Haydn? I can't think of an example."

No, I can't think of an example in Haydn's Masses, either. But then Haydn never set out to write a "solemn" mass...? Could there be a passage in The Creation, I wonder?

However, his brother, Michael, who was arguably the more popular composer of church music at the time, did compose Advent & Lent masses with Gregorian chant melodies, such as his Missa dolorum (1762) and Missa tempore Quadragesima (1794). Beethoven almost certainly knew the latter mass, which is unlike anything that any other composer had written at the time, except for possibly Mozart--but that only in certain parts; as I can't think of a single mass by Mozart that begins in a similar 'chant-like' style that Michael Haydn uses here:






Another later composer that was influenced by the old Gregorian chant was Gabriel Faure in his Requiem, which like Beethoven's Missa Solemnis can also be performed operatically or in a more solemn older church style, and evidently, Faure liked both kinds of performances during his lifetime! Although he wanted his tenor to sing in a more "cantor-like" fashion, rather than in an operatic manner.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I just don't see any connection between the Missa Solemnis and church chant, Gregorian or otherwise.

Presumably when he talks about pure vocal music he means _a cappella_ singing. Or maybe he means music which doesn't do any painting of the words. Who knows? Impossible to say.

How were Beethoven's religious views different from Palestrina's I wonder.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^That Michael Haydn mass is a real discovery. It's fascinatingly austere, and quite beautiful.

Presumably because of the church, medieval and renaissance music never went away. Brahms certainly studied it, Verdi acclaimed Paletrina as "the greatest master that ever was," and Wagner edited and even performed Palestrina's "Stabat Mater." Nice to see these sometime rival composers agreeing on something!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> How were Beethoven's religious views different from Palestrina's I wonder.


Beethoven was apparently interested in Hinduism and Eastern thought, and we may infer that he was not an orthodox Christian. Not unusual for intellectually aware Europeans at the time. I presume Palestrina was orthodox Roman Catholic.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Beethoven was apparently interested in Hinduism and Eastern thought, and we may infer that he was not an orthodox Christian. Not unusual for intellectually aware Europeans at the time. I presume Palestrina was orthodox Roman Catholic.


Beethoven's interests, like our own, changed through his life. Recent biographers suggest that his interests in Eastern religions, Egyptian mystery cults, and so forth waned in his last decade. He became very concerned about getting young Carl a strong "moral" education. Although never a hidebound conservative, his attentions recentered on his Catholicism. This may also have had to do with his enthusiastic and seemingly endless work on the _Missa_, which he began about this time.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Beethoven was apparently interested in Hinduism and Eastern thought, and we may infer that he was not an orthodox Christian. Not unusual for intellectually aware Europeans at the time. I presume Palestrina was orthodox Roman Catholic.


the religious beliefs of these intellectuals might be hard to categorize. People argue to this day if Einstein believed in god or he was an atheist, the same about Goethe or Dostoyevsky. I do not consider myself to be an atheist either, on the other hand I want nothing to do with any kind of organized religion and consider them antithetical to critical thinking and reason. And especially if people grew up in religious environments, it influences them and they might be split in their beliefs. So at some points in his life Beethoven might have been catolic, then hinduist or even an atheist. It is not mutually exclusive for me.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> *A slight aside regarding the aforementioned Klemperer, I do think that Wilhelm Pitz, the chorus master, also deserves to be acknowledged for the brilliant choral singing. *Walter Legge picked him to create the Philharmonia Chorus and he directed them for most (all?) of the Klemperer recordings which required a chorus, and that includes the Fidelio, Mahler 2nd and the Brahms Requiem.


While acknowledging the brilliance of the Philarmonia chorus' singing in the Klemperer, he is hampered first by some pretty lumbering tempi in the fugues and secondly by some second-rate sounding soloists and this is a work which demands first-rate soloists in recordings. Bernstein's DG recording is similarly hampered. Why Karajan's first DG and later EMI are my choices as his soloists are unmatched and that his rapt sense of devotion is unbeaten.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

What is really surprising is that they're all singling out Palestrina, I mean Wagner, Beethoven, Brahms. Maybe his music was easily available -- i.e. the only renaissance composer they knew. 

If we take him at his word, Beethoven saw something in his ideas about God which was fundamentally different from what he took to be Palestrina's beliefs. And that perceived difference was so basic that a sincere expression of his faith in music just could not resemble Palestrina's.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Josquin13 said:


> Beethoven almost certainly knew the latter mass, which is unlike anything that any other composer had written at the time, except for possibly Mozart--but that only in certain parts; as I can't think of a single mass by Mozart that begins in a similar 'chant-like' style that Michael Haydn uses here:


Howabout the a capella-styled Laudate Pueri Dominum from Vesperae de Dominica K321?






While he was in Bologna, (the same year Beethoven was born), Mozart wrote a "student work" after the Allegri miserere he had heard in Rome earlier that year.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

These are also interesting as well:


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