# Help me like Bellini!



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

What recordings of Bellini's operas would his fans recommend?

I've listened to:

_La straniera_ (Guardagno 1969, with Caballé)
_I Capuleti e i Montecchi_ (Muti 1984, with Baltsa and Gruberová)
_La sonnambula_ (Bonynge 1980, with Sutherland)
_Norma_ (Bonynge 1964, with Sutherland)
_Norma_ (Bonynge 1978, with Sutherland) - video from Sydney Opera House
_Beatrice di Tenda_ (Bonynge 1967, with Sutherland)
_I Puritani_ (Muti 1979, with Caballé and Kraus)

I've heard a mid-century Italian recording of _Il pirata_, but can't remember which.

Of those, the only one I liked was the Muti _Puritani_. The others I thought were insipid and rather boring, or derivative of Rossini (_Capuleti_). Many people, I know, love his operas. Am I listening to the wrong recordings?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You must hear the 1955 _Norma_ from La Scala with Callas, Del Monaco and Simionato under Votto. An electric evening in the theater, and probably the best of the many Callas _Normas._ It's on several labels; you'll have to ask someone else which has the best sound, but the performance will come through regardless.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

*I Puritani *: the studio recording with Callas. It is cut, but I think it contains the most ardent and passionate singing.
*Beatrice di Tenda*: I don't think we have any other choice than the one you mentioned. 
*Norma*: Can't go wrong with Callas, and there have been tons of reviews by Callas fans here. My personal favorite is definitely the 1955 live performance with Giulietta Simionato and Mario Del Monaco , conducted by Antonino Votto. Here, her singing is so devastating that you can here the audiences' gasp of astonishment after her "_Son Io_" (



). I like the live performance of Caballe too.
*La Sonnambula*: Callas again. Other canaries may shine in the joyous moments, but none get as deep as Callas in the last scene.
*I Capuleti e i Montecchi *: Sills and Baker, studio recording. There is a live recording of Sills some where, in which she is even more amazing vocally. (



)
*La straniera*: The live performance of the young Caballe.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

La Sonnambula is one of my favorite operas. I have not heard the Sutherland recording. My favorite so far (I have the Bartoli one on order) is with Natalie Dessay. Also there are several Maria Callas Sonnambula recordings. The 1957 studio set would be very good.

For Beatrice di Tenda I have a nice set with Lucia Aliberti:








Can pick this one up cheap on Brilliant: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CB8B13O


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Frankly, I cannot help you. You've tried some of the best. Give it up and fret not. We can't like everything.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Frankly, I cannot help you. You've tried some of the best. Give it up and fret not. We can't like everything.


I agree with Nina on this one, I am sure other people struggle with your taste for French opera, does that bother you?
I presume not.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Thanks for the recommendations!

I've listened to Act I of the 1954 Callas _Norma_. (Act II later tonight.) It has more backbone than either of the Bonynge recordings above. There's more sense of drama; it's like listening to theater that happens to be sung. Callas is a better actress than Sutherland, although Sutherland's voice is more beautiful.

I'll get hold of the other Callas recordings.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> Thanks for the recommendations!
> 
> I've listened to Act I of the 1954 Callas _Norma_. (Act II later tonight.) *It has more backbone than either of the Bonynge recordings above.* *There's more sense of drama; it's like listening to theater that happens to be sung*. Callas is a better actress than Sutherland, although Sutherland's voice is more beautiful.
> 
> I'll get hold of the other Callas recordings.


You are welcome and definitely! I assume you referred to the 1954 studio recording with Stignani.

IMO, Tullio Serafin (as well as many active Italian conductors of the 50s such as Gavazzeni, Gui, Votto, and Rescigno) grasped the essence of bel canto much, much better than Bonynge, despite how much the latter and his wife claimed to "resurrect" bel canto.

If Callas' *basic timbre* is a deterrent at first, and if you truly value the sense of drama, I highly recommend Caballe's live Norma with Vickers at Thèatre Antique d'Orange. She is phenomenal here. The voice is velvet but piercing, and on that night she_ is _Norma:






Anyways, give the 1955 Roma Norma with Callas a try! You will be blown away.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

For the legendary December 7, 1955 Norma at Teatro alla Scala Milan with Callas, this is the best-sounding transfer:










You can get it as CD or FLAC download from Divina Records:
http://www.divinarecords.com/dvn017/dvn017.html


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

And since you are trying to *love* Bellini, I just want to mention some facts of how awesome Bellini is.

Well, obviously Wagner was very fond of Bellini ( he claimed that among all Bellini operas, Norma is "richest in the profoundly realistic way in which true melody is united with intimate passion". He loved it so much that he composed an additional bass aria for Norma 



).

Who else was a big fan of Bellini? Chopin!

The *Etude op. 25 no. 7 in C sharp minor* _"Cello"_ is derived from Norma's _Dormono entrambi_.











Indeed, Bellini left a profound influence on Chopin. I the long, moonlit melodic lines in Chopin's piano concerti, nocturnes , etudes and ballades are pretty much Bellinian.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

This is my favourite.

Live recording of Joan Sutherland's role debut as Norma, which took place at Vancouver Opera


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

I think it was this Callas performance of the mad scene from Il Pirata that got me into Bellini.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am still sticking with Aliberti on Beatrice.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

It is a shame that Bellini died so early at age 33 with his best work still in his future, but he has left us several landmarks of Bel Canto opera,,,,,,as you are discovering these technically demanding works with exciting cabalettas to showcase an individual singers skill and artistry are only as good as the singers themselves who bring them to life in our imagination......

Some of these famous bel canto operas were written specially to showcase a well known singers talents, Sonnambulla and Norma both for Guiditta Pasta and a few years later Malibran sang them, two famous assoluta sopranos were given vehicles specially designed to display their amazing talents

As others have mentioned Callas above all others in recent times had the artistry and vocal technique to do these with style and bravura, I don't know any singer today who can really do them as well.......keep us updated on your quest there is much to discover


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Tuoksu said:


> I think it was this Callas performance of the mad scene from Il Pirata that got me into Bellini.


We must thank the opera gods we have this fine document to remind us of what is possible with a gifted artist in full flight!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> We must thank the opera gods we have this fine document to remind us of what is possible with a gifted artist in full flight!


Confession: I play this cd whenever I need to leave a mask on my face for 40 mins and relax..


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I've finished the 1954 Callas _Norma_. Aha! Now I can see why it's admired. With all respect to Sutherland, Callas's portrayal is in a different class. She's inside the role in a way Sutherland isn't. Scenes which in the Bonynge recordings seem long-winded and tedious crackle with tension here.

Onto the 1953 _Puritani_!

By the way, did Bellini use the same tune in _Norma_ ("In mia man alfin tu sei") and _Puritani_ ("Il rival salvar tu dei")?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

silentio said:


> You are welcome and definitely! I assume you referred to the 1954 studio recording with Stignani.
> 
> IMO, Tullio Serafin (as well as many active Italian conductors of the 50s such as Gavazzeni, Gui, Votto, and Rescigno) grasped the essence of bel canto much, much better than Bonynge, despite how much the latter and his wife claimed to "resurrect" bel canto.


I think Bonynge gets French opera more than Italian. (His _Esclarmonde_ and _Huguenots_ are near-definitive.)

How do you think Levine compares to Italian conductors?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

silentio said:


> And since you are trying to *love* Bellini, I just want to mention some facts of how awesome Bellini is.
> 
> Well, obviously Wagner was very fond of Bellini ( he claimed that among all Bellini operas, Norma is "richest in the profoundly realistic way in which true melody is united with intimate passion". He loved it so much that he composed an additional bass aria for Norma
> 
> ...


And...

I stayed in Modena last night so as not to miss the whole point of my trip… In both places I heard _Norma _which has affected me greatly. I only wish you had been here to hear it with me, so that you will not reproach me for being the old pessimist when I say that I tremble and shake at the thought of my new opera being directly compared with this _Norma_, since it is apparently to be given in Paris almost at the same time as my new opera. All the same, I am really grateful to this work which has provided me with two wonderfully enjoyable evenings, and has stimulated my work…
-- Giacomo Meyerbeer to his wife Minna

Robert Letellier argues that Bellini's opera influenced Meyerbeer's _Huguenots_. (Scroll up to p. 84.)


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> I've finished the 1954 Callas _Norma_. Aha! Now I can see why it's admired. With all respect to Sutherland, Callas's portrayal is in a different class. * She's inside the role in a way Sutherland isn't. Scenes which in the Bonynge recordings seem long-winded and tedious crackle with tension here.*
> 
> *Onto the 1953 Puritani!*
> 
> By the way, did Bellini use the same tune in _Norma_ ("In mia man alfin tu sei") and _Puritani_ ("Il rival salvar tu dei")?


Indeed. This reminds me of when I was first curious about Donizetti and was given the uncut studio recording of Anna Bolena with Sutherland/Bonynge; it bored me to sleep. Both he and she fail to grasp the dramatic genius of Donizetti, and makes this opera sound like a soporific third-rate composition (it actually is not; historically it was the first opera of Donizetti to achieve wide success). I then discovered the legendary live performance of Callas/Gavazzeni which blew my mind away.

I think it is difficult to make bel canto really work. In Puccini, Massenet, and R. Strauss, singing without any clue of drama or characterization (as well as unstylish conducting) may be *passable*, but for Bellini/Donizetti, it will be 2-3 hours of torture for the audiences, unless what they look for is the high E


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

SimonTemplar said:


> I've finished the 1954 Callas _Norma_. Aha! Now I can see why it's admired. With all respect to Sutherland, Callas's portrayal is in a different class. She's inside the role in a way Sutherland isn't. Scenes which in the Bonynge recordings seem long-winded and tedious crackle with tension here.
> 
> *Onto the 1953 Puritani!*


Important opera early in Maria's career

- Her first recording after signing major EMI contact, this also means "A" list cast to sing with Callas going forward (Stefano, Gobbi etc) and the media attention that follows

- In 1949 Callas was singing heavy Wagner Brunnhilde, Kundry roles for Serafin in Venice when as the legend goes the singer for Puritani became ill and Serfin insisted Maria could sing Elvira part with only six days to learn it, the critics and audience alike were stunned with the amazing results, no singer before was thought to be able to sing both roles at the highest level, thus her legend was born and a few years later the EMI contract and the steady rise to queen of La Scala status



51 Mexico Elvira


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Important opera early in Maria's career
> 
> - Her first recording after signing major EMI contact, this also means "A" list cast to sing with Callas going forward (Stefano, Gobbi etc) and the media attention that follows
> 
> ...


Oh mine, she looks stunning. Was this pre-weight loss?


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

silentio said:


> Oh mine, she looks stunning. Was this pre-weight loss?


Yes it was. One of my favorite photos of her. Can I be the only one who thinks she looked better before losing all the weight?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ yes full weight Callas 51 Mexico, her "wildcat" days


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tuoksu said:


> Yes it was. One of my favorite photos of her. Can I be the only one who thinks she looked better before losing all the weight?


Agree, she looks great here, of course youth helps that. The weight loss made her a fashion plate but not necessarily more attractive.


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## Scopitone (Nov 22, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> Yes it was. One of my favorite photos of her. Can I be the only one who thinks she looked better before losing all the weight?


I don't know if she looked "better", but she sure looks GORGEOUS.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> What recordings of Bellini's operas would his fans recommend?


I see in another threat that you have been listening to the live 1957 Maria Callas Sonnambula. Excellent choice!

Besides that I recommend Natalie Dessay's Sonnambula and Cecilia Bartoli/Juan Diego Florez' Sonnambula. Sonnambula is my very favorite Bellini opera and was my third opera ever that I explored after Fidelio and La Cenerentola.

The Bartoli/Florez Sonnambula is unique in that it is the only recording with a mezzo Amina. I just received it and it is absolutely wonderful, every singer, not just Bartoli and Florez are wonderful. A phenomenal Rodolfo too--one of the finest bass-baritones voices I have ever heard in Ildebrando D'Arcangelo.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Bellini's Norma is, by any measure an astounding opera. IMO, it is up in that rarefied atmosphere of the last 3 Mozart operas. Like those operas it has melodies galore with a gloriously beautiful major aria, duet, trio or quartet occurring every few minutes.

When it comes to the issue of Norma performances/recordings, I think we should be thankful that we have those from Callas and Sutherland rather than worry about which is the better performance. In the end, the Callas 1954 and the Sutherland 1964 recordings are astounding interpretations and, for the most part, it comes down to personal preference when it comes to comparing the two.

Personally, I prefer the Sutherland/Horne Decca recording by a fairly wide margin for a number of reasons. For one thing, Sutherland sings in the original higher key. The technical mastery to achieve this is significant, but I'm more interested in the fact that this is the way Bellini intended it to be sung. 

Second, I find Sutherland's performance as the more beautiful, but, again, this is a personal preference. I would agree that the Callas work is more dramatic and perhaps better 'acted', but I'm listening to a recording as opposed to being present at a live performance so I prefer the beauty.

Third, the 1964 Sutherland recording is better than the Callas 1954 mono or 1960 stereo versions when it comes to production and engineering. This is a fact, not an opinion. The 1964 Sutherland Decca recording is a remarkable recording when it comes to placement of the singers on the stereo stage and the quality of the sound. It is one of the best opera recordings I have ever heard and that is saying a lot given the limitations of stereo tape recording in 1964!. Full disclosure: I've always had a problem listening to classical music in mono, but it is especially true when it comes to opera. I was blessed with two ears for a number of reasons and one of them was to be able to hear opera in stereo as God intended! 

Finally, I prefer the supporting cast in the Sutherland recording. Marilyn Horne is in top voice and the two voices optimally resonate together. The supporting cast in the 1954 Callas recording is IMO not all that great. It is better in the 1960 recording, but I think most people agree that Callas was not as good in the 1960 recording as she was in the 1954.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ Love the 64 Sutherland Norma, great sound and Joanie has never sound better vocally......it is just a matter of the fundmental style and vocal sound of Callas vs Sutherland both are great but different and people naturally will gravitate to their preferred diva that emotionaly moves them most.......

As some have mentioned above Callas has many great Normas but her very best for me are live and not the studio versions, 55 La Scala conducted by Votto with Julia Simionatto as Adalgisa, and the 52 ROH conducted by Gui

I used to automatically refer to 55 Scala as the very best (when considering cast still overall best), but the more I listen to 52 ROH I am not so sure, Maria's voice then was almost limitless in its dramatic power with beautiful tonal colors that are effortlessly at her command, the sound is not great but latest Myto is better than EMI release. 55 Callas is more skillfull and deeper into the character but the voice in 52 is something we will never hear today, it raises the bar impossibly high far any to surpass it......

The very best recordings for these two: (if you have arsvocalis 52 Gui even better)

















Having said all that for someone new getting 1st Callas Norma I recommend 1960 EMI studio version, from there you can get deeper into Maria's art as you desire


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Florestan said:


> I see in another threat that you have been listening to the live 1957 Maria Callas Sonnambula. Excellent choice!


And now I understand what people see in the opera. Amazing the difference a different recording can make! It's a tighter, more energetic and dramatic recording than the Bonynge/Sutherland recording I heard.

And yet I don't want to knock Bonynge too much; he conducted a _Lucia_ in Sydney a decade ago, which was one of the most enjoyable nights I've had at the opera. (Apart from some swine pinching my programme!)



> Besides that I recommend Natalie Dessay's Sonnambula and Cecilia Bartoli/Juan Diego Florez' Sonnambula. Sonnambula is my very favorite Bellini opera and was my third opera ever that I explored after Fidelio and La Cenerentola.
> 
> The Bartoli/Florez Sonnambula is unique in that it is the only recording with a mezzo Amina. I just received it and it is absolutely wonderful, every singer, not just Bartoli and Florez are wonderful. A phenomenal Rodolfo too--one of the finest bass-baritones voices I have ever heard in Ildebrando D'Arcangelo.


I'll check them out! But I think another Bellini next - maybe _Beatrice di Tenda_.


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## sacraselva (Aug 31, 2016)

SimonTemplar said:


> I've finished the 1954 Callas _Norma_. Aha! Now I can see why it's admired. With all respect to Sutherland, Callas's portrayal is in a different class. She's inside the role in a way Sutherland isn't. Scenes which in the Bonynge recordings seem long-winded and tedious crackle with tension here.
> 
> Onto the 1953 _Puritani_!


This thread had me taking a step away from my usual Callas route (1955 La Scala live recording would be my Norma recommendation too btw) and check out the early Sutherland studio Norma. I am in complete agreement - what a snooze. 
To me, beautiful singing is worth nothing (esp. in this genre) if the dramatic tension and excitement isn't there. (I am still a happy noob, but I feel lucky that someone made sure I went in the Callas direction from the start )
Happy to see that you have come to appreciate Bellini! This excellent thread now has me wanting to explore some more recordings


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SimonTemplar said:


> But I think another Bellini next - maybe _Beatrice di Tenda_.


Beatrice is not my favorite opera, but if I were to find the Gruberova recording at a good used price, I'd grab it. It is going for $27 used on Amazon!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Agree, she looks great here, of course youth helps that. The weight loss made her a fashion plate but not necessarily more attractive.


Exactly. Her sense of style and elegance made her a Fashion icon of that era, she dressed magnificently. But her face really didn't get any more attractive. Quite the opposite to be honest. Weight loss combined with aging is never flattering.

edited to add: In this early Norma video, we can see how robust she used to be. She looked like she could support that stentorian sound she made. Since 1954 she started looking feeble..


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^^ Love the 64 Sutherland Norma, great sound and Joanie has never sound better vocally......it is just a matter of the fundmental style and vocal sound of Callas vs Sutherland both are great but different and people naturally will gravitate to their preferred diva that emotionaly moves them most.......
> 
> As some have mentioned above Callas has many great Normas but her very best for me are live and not the studio versions, 55 La Scala conducted by Votto with Julia Simionatto as Adalgisa, and the 52 ROH conducted by Gui
> 
> ...


Callas was always in better voice live in my opinion. I'm not sure whether I prefer the 1952 recording over the one from 1955 either. I usually do not care much about the quality of the sound, but in later recordings, Callas' Norma gained something new vocally. Callas has said that her favorite roles were Norma and Traviata because every time she sang them she discovered something new. One thing I'm sure of is that vocally, her 1952 performance is unsurpassed. If it shocked Sutherland too much that she kept raving about it years later then it must have been one hell of a night.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> I used to automatically refer to 55 Scala as the very best (when considering cast still overall best), but the more I listen to 52 ROH I am not so sure, Maria's voice then was almost limitless in its dramatic power with beautiful tonal colors that are effortlessly at her command, the sound is not great but latest Myto is better than EMI release. 55 Callas is more skillfull and deeper into the character but the voice in 52 is something we will never hear today, it raises the bar impossibly high far any to surpass it......





> Callas was always in better voice live in my opinion. I'm not sure whether I prefer the 1952 recording over the one from 1955 either. I usually do not care much about the quality of the sound, but in later recordings, Callas' Norma gained something new vocally. Callas has said that her favorite roles were Norma and Traviata because every time she sang them she discovered something new. One thing I'm sure of is that vocally, her 1952 performance is unsurpassed. If it shocked Sutherland too much that she kept raving about it years later then it must have been one hell of a night.


You must hear this 52 Norma passage in excellent sound from vinyl master Callasfan, if this does not break your heart you are made of stone, the voice is absolutely amazing as good as Callas has ever sounded......start 42:58


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tuoksu said:


> Exactly. Her sense of style and elegance made her a Fashion icon of that era, she dressed magnificently. But her face really didn't get any more attractive. Quite the opposite to be honest. Weight loss combined with aging is never flattering.
> 
> edited to add: In this early Norma video, we can see how robust she used to be. She looked like she could support that stentorian sound she made. Since 1954 she started looking feeble..
> [video removed to save space]


Yeah, and had she not done the crash diet for quick 80 pounds loss, she might have been a great Wagnerian singer. I understand she took a shot at Wagner but did not stick with it. What a great Brunnhiled the pre-weight-loss Callas would have made!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> You must hear this 52 Norma passage in excellent sound from vinyl master Callasfan, if this does not break your heart you are made of stone, the voice is absolutely amazing as good as Callas has ever sounded......start 42:58


Thanks for the link. This quality is certainly much better than the one I have. I've been following Callasfan for a while. I love his Callas aria compilations and his "fantastic sound" version of the Torino 1952 recital in which she sang Macbeth, Lucia, Nabucco and Lakmé, complete with a high E, all in one evening. Who else could do this?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^^ the 52 Norma descending run of notes at 59:00 is untouchable, the size amplitude beauty of the high notes is breathtaking, if this was La Scala the crowd would be gasping, going beserk


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Yeah, and had she not done the crash diet for quick 80 pounds loss, she might have been a great Wagnerian singer. I understand she took a shot at Wagner but did not stick with it. What a great Brunnhiled the pre-weight-loss Callas would have made!


She didn't 'stick with it' because she was redirected to the bel canto repertoire which she much preferred, and the weight loss occurred a few years after dropping the Wagner. Incidentally, all of her Wagner roles were done in Italian


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm just now seeing this thread. To me Bellini's music is some of the most sublime imaginable, but I can't make anybody like it. Not every composer is for everybody. There are some composers I probably will never like -- Alban Berg, for example.

Dramatically, Bellini's operas are a bit static; he seems to have had less "theatre sense" than did Donizetti or Verdi. Other than not taking to the music itself, I feel the static quality probably puts many opera-goers off Bellini. He's also, for whatever reason, something of a "connisseurs' composer"; I don't think any of his operas -- not even NORMA -- will ever attain the popularity of, say, Puccini's LA BOHEME or even of Donizetti's LUCIA DI LAMMERMOOR.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I listened to the 1957 _Sonnambula_ twice yesterday; charming and tuneful. Listened to the 1960 _Norma_ this afternoon. I think my opinion of Bellini is changing.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I don't think any of his operas -- not even NORMA -- will ever attain the popularity of, say, Puccini's LA BOHEME or even of Donizetti's LUCIA DI LAMMERMOOR.


Considering how popular Norma is comparing to Bellini´s other operas it is a bit odd that Bellini is not called a one hit wonder while Bizet is called a one hit wonder despite that Pearl Fishers is a really popular opera.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Considering how popular Norma is comparing to Bellini´s other operas it is a bit odd that Bellini is not called a one hit wonder while Bizet is called a one hit wonder despite that Pearl Fishers is a really popular opera.


I think La Sonnambula and I Puritani are fairly popular too..


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> I think La Sonnambula and I Puritani are fairly popular too..


Not nearly as popular as Norma.
Of course good operas but in this case I think popularity have been fair Norma is full of good tunes that sticks immediately in the head lots of ear worms from that opera.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Not nearly as popular as Norma.
> Of course good operas but in this case I think popularity have been fair Norma is full of good tunes that sticks immediately in the head lots of ear worms from that opera.


Norma is indeed more popular, but not by such a great margin. When thinking of Bellini, one can hardly exclude these two other operas. Not to mention that they are hallmarks in the careers of Bel Canto "specialists". Sutherland, Callas made these two operas very famous. At least the arias.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sonnambula rates way higher than the others for me. It may be that I just have not experienced the others as much because Sonnambula was my third ever opera DVD and I have a decent sized Sonnambula collection with several DVDs (Moffo, Dessay, and Mei) and eight CD sets: Bartoli, Callas Live 1955, Callas Live 1957, Callas Studio 1957, Dessay, Devia, Eva Lind, and Luba Orgonasova (NAXOS). The others, in order of preference:

Puritani I have Devia, Sills and Aliberti (Highlights). I am not that fond of Puritani but will add that the Machaidze and Florez Puritani DVD is excellent! I also have a Gruberova Puritani DVD that I have not watched yet.

For Beatrice di Tenda I only have the Aliberti CD and a Gruberova DVD.

I only bought a CD of Capuleti e i Montecchi when I was on a Beverly Sills craze, and it also has Janet Baker so is a good one. Also got a Bellini opera set which includes a Capuleti e i Montecchi (Katia Ricciarelli), the above-listed Devia Puritani, and three others that I am totally unfamiliar with and don't listen to: Zaira, Bianca & Fernandpo, and Adelson & Salvini.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Alas for me, with the possible exception of _Norma_ I can live without Bellini unless he is sung with the uttermost technical skill and deepest feeling, as he is meant to be sung.

This, I can't live without:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Here is cool website for all those opera statistics you want at your fingertips (next time you go to MET gala event and chit chat, ha ha) and Bellini only place two in the top 100 most performed operas worldwide:

42 - Norma
95 - Sonnambula

http://operabase.com/top.cgi?lang=en&break=0&show=opera&no=100&nat=

Tough to take on these roles today knowing the extreme vocal demands and having to be compared with the giants that came before you by critics


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Alas for me, with the possible exception of _Norma_ I can live without Bellini unless he is sung with the uttermost technical skill and deepest feeling, as he is meant to be sung.
> 
> This, I can't live without:


Besides our divine Elvira that sequence also shows the highly skilled expressive Italian males voices that seemed to be everywhere back then, Rolando Panerai etc


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Here is cool website for all those opera statistics you want at your fingertips (next time you go to MET gala event and chit chat, ha ha) and Bellini only place two in the top 100 most performed operas worldwide:
> 
> 42 - Norma
> 95 - Sonnambula
> ...


I was going to make that exact post..


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> I was going to make that exact post..


I was looking good at that exact site.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Sloe said:


> Not nearly as popular as Norma.
> Of course good operas but in this case I think popularity have been fair Norma is full of good tunes that sticks immediately in the head lots of ear worms from that opera.


In _Norma_, there are a couple of big tunes (famously "Casta diva", but also the Act I finale, the Act II duet and "Guerra! Guerra!"), but Bellini seems to have blurred aria and recitative - which may have influenced Wagner.

_Puritani_ seems more tuneful; certainly, the orchestration is more imaginative than _Norma_. On the other hand, _Norma_ is more dramatic.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> In _Norma_, there are a couple of big tunes (famously "Casta diva", but also the Act I finale, the Act II duet and "Guerra! Guerra!"), but Bellini seems to have blurred aria and recitative - which may have influenced Wagner.
> 
> _Puritani_ seems more tuneful; certainly, the orchestration is more imaginative than _Norma_. On the other hand, _Norma_ is more dramatic.


The second act starting with the desperate Adalgisa followed by the duet and the trio............ masterpieces.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> Here is cool website for all those opera statistics you want at your fingertips (next time you go to MET gala event and chit chat, ha ha) and Bellini only place two in the top 100 most performed operas worldwide:
> 
> 42 - Norma
> 95 - Sonnambula
> ...


Oh wow. One of my favorite operas (not Bellini) didn't even make the list (Flotow's Martha).


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> Important opera early in Maria's career
> 
> - Her first recording after signing major EMI contact, this also means "A" list cast to sing with Callas going forward (Stefano, Gobbi etc) and the media attention that follows
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly. Apparently, Maria protested to Serafin. She didn't know one note of the role and had three more Brunnhildes on the docket. Serafin said, "I guarantee you can do it" and the rest was history.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

gellio said:


> Yes, exactly. Apparently, Maria protested to Serafin. She didn't know one note of the role and had three more Brunnhildes on the docket. Serafin said, "I guarantee you can do it" and the rest was history.


But I think she did record (very successfully) the mad scene in 1949? So probably she sort of gave the role some thoughts before?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> But I think she did record (very successfully) the mad scene in 1949? So probably she sort of gave the role some thoughts before?


She had sung the _Puritani_ mad scene privately, and may have considered performing the role, but surely not concurrently with Brunnhilde!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> She had sung he _Puritani_ mad scene privately, and may have considered performing the role, but surely not concurrently with Brunnhilde!


The "private experience" as told by Francesco Siciliani: 
_In October of 1948, just after I moved to Florence to head the Teatro Comunale, Serafin called me from Rome. "Come at once," he begged. "You must hear this girl. She is discouraged and has bought a ticket to return to America. Help me convince her to stay." So, at his home, I met Maria Callas. She was tall and heavy, but had an interesting face, real presence, expression, intelligence.
With Serafin at the piano, she did her usual repertory for me - Gioconda, Turandot, Aida, Tristan. Parts of the voice were beautiful, other empty, and she used strange portamenti. During a pause, she said she had studied with Elvira de Hidalgo, which struck me as curious, for de Hidalgo had been a coloratura. "I know coloratura pieces too," Callas explained, "but I'm a dramatic soprano." "Well," I asked, "can we hear something of a different nature?" So she sang the aria from I Puritani, with the cabaletta. I was overwhelmed, and tears streamed down Serafin's cheeks. This was the kind of singer one read about in books from the nineteenth century - a real dramatic coloratura. 
_


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> She had sung the _Puritani_ mad scene privately, and may have considered performing the role, *but surely not concurrently* with Brunnhilde!


*
Yes same 49 season at Venice alternating a few days apart!*

Walkure (Molinari-Pradelli) - Jan 8, 12, 14, 16, 28, Feb 10

Puritani (Serafin) - Jan 19, 22, 23

That is why the legend was born..........


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> *
> Yes same 49 season at Venice alternating a few days apart!*
> 
> Walkure (Molinari-Pradelli) - Jan 8, 12, 14, 16, 28
> ...


He meant she didn't _consider_ singing them concurrently. Although I doubt that. She knew the role, she made sure Serafin's wife heard her sing it when Carosio got sick.. :angel:


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## angelo (Jun 20, 2017)

SimonTemplar said:


> What recordings of Bellini's operas would his fans recommend?
> 
> I've listened to:
> 
> ...


Yes, there is an issue for Bellini's recordings of some years ago. They were sing "as if" Bellini was Verdi or, worse, Puccini.
The result is that the soprano may result great, but the rest results insipid and boring (tenors were usualy sung at a lower intonation).

That is particularly true for the first operas of Bellini (which imho are the best), and less true for his last operas (such as Puritani, Norma, Sonnambula)

For Bellini I think that modern productions are by far better. Search for example "_Bellini: Adelson e Salvini - Enea Scala tenore_" on youtube. 
However some Bellini's operas still lack a good edition (that the case of the Pirata, his masterpiece)

There is also the problem of the Italian: for Bellini operas, differently from Rossinis and even more that Verdis, it is very important to understand the words of the main arias with so "long long melodies".


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

angelo said:


> Yes, there is an issue for Bellini's recordings of some years ago. They were sing "as if" Bellini was Verdi or, worse, Puccini.
> The result is that the soprano may result great, but the rest results insipid and boring (tenors were usualy sung at a lower intonation).
> 
> That is particularly true for the first operas of Bellini (which imho are the best), and less true for his last operas (such as Puritani, Norma, Sonnambula)
> ...


Just saw this - thanks for the advice! I'll check out the more recent recordings.

Any recommendations for the _Pirata_? And why do you think it's his masterpiece?


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## angelo (Jun 20, 2017)

SimonTemplar said:


> Any recommendations for the _Pirata_? And why do you think it's his masterpiece?


Il Pirata was the first triumph of Bellini. It is his first opera quite free (where possible) from Rossini's imitation and we can find fully developed his new style: words and music united in long melodies.
It is classical in structure (static scenes) but full of new romantic feelings: the tenor (Gualtiero) is the first damned-irrational lover. The opera is well structured, concise and never goes off topic. It has a rich chorus and uses some orchestral effects (in some places it looks pre-Wagnerian)

No satisfating edition exists. The issue is the tenor who shall sing very high (not only some notes, but many arias). To sing Gualtiero (written for Rubini) as if he was Otello means to loose all the beauty of the melodies of Bellini: it means to kill the opera.
The Opera Rara edition (dir. D.Parry and Gualtiero J.Bros) moves in the right way, but it is too slow and it doesn't catch the spirit of the sillabic singing needed for Bellini (who wrote only for the best cast available in Italy at his time).

The registration I prefer is the one of Concergebouw d'Amsterdam, 20.09.2003, by G.Carella with Miricioiu,Secco,A.Scagidullin. Stefano Secco doesn't give huge results in some arias/cabaletta (if we compare with "Nel furor delle tempeste" by Florez) and cuts some ornaments (as b-c5#-b-d5-c5... on word "puoi" in the trio in 2 act with Gualtiero-Imogene-Ernesto). 
However Secco is able with his very good legate of sillabic singing to fully render Bellini's ideas, lissen for example his "Pietoso al padre e meco" and "Parlarti ancor per poco" in the 1 act.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> The registration I prefer is the one of Concergebouw d'Amsterdam, 20.09.2003, by G.Carella with Miricioiu,Secco,A.Scagidullin.


Do you have any details about the number / barcode / company who recorded this one please?


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## angelo (Jun 20, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Do you have any details about the number / barcode / company who recorded this one please?


The Opera Lovers PIR 200301

You can search the duet on youtube fmsj_1MpqiY at 4:25


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

angelo said:


> Il Pirata was the first triumph of Bellini. It is his first opera quite free (where possible) from Rossini's imitation and we can find fully developed his new style: words and music united in long melodies.
> It is classical in structure (static scenes) but full of new romantic feelings: the tenor (Gualtiero) is the first damned-irrational lover. The opera is well structured, concise and never goes off topic. It has a rich chorus and uses some orchestral effects (in some places it looks pre-Wagnerian)
> 
> No satisfating edition exists. The issue is the tenor who shall sing very high (not only some notes, but many arias). To sing Gualtiero (written for Rubini) as if he was Otello means to loose all the beauty of the melodies of Bellini: it means to kill the opera.
> ...


I listened to Fogliani's _Pirata_:




Good stuff!


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

angelo said:


> Il Pirata was the first triumph of Bellini. It is his first opera quite free (where possible) from Rossini's imitation and we can find fully developed his new style: words and music united in long melodies.
> It is classical in structure (static scenes) but full of new romantic feelings: the tenor (Gualtiero) is the first damned-irrational lover. The opera is well structured, concise and never goes off topic. It has a rich chorus and uses some orchestral effects (in some places it looks pre-Wagnerian)
> 
> No satisfating edition exists. The issue is the tenor who shall sing very high (not only some notes, but many arias). To sing Gualtiero (written for Rubini) as if he was Otello means to loose all the beauty of the melodies of Bellini: it means to kill the opera.
> ...


I've just bought this from House of Opera. Finding a decent _Pirata_ is murder! The Opera Rara drags (almost half an hour longer than other recordings!) - like other Opera Rara recordings, it can seem too...academic? The Fogliani is brisk and idiomatic, but Kunde sounds strained in the tenor role. The tenor in the EMI version with Caballé isn't great. The best I've heard is the 1967 live recording with Caballé, but the sound quality's rather boxy.

Of course, the part really does call for Flórez!


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

I agree that modern recordings give a more complete, perhaps more authentic representation of Bellini's intentions but I would suggest that there are plenty of thrills to be found among more verismo-inspired recordings which can be highly idiomatic and - yes - exciting

In Puritani there is the 1952 recording which I enjoy for Mario Filippeschi's high-lying tenor as Arturo as well as Pagliughi's sensitively sung Elvira which is interesting because it is such a different sound portrait from Callas' dark timbre. There is also a young Rolando Panerai





In Sonnambula from 1952 there is Tagliavini's Elvino which is extremely poignant and beautifully enunciated - he has, I think, the most beautiful timbre and youthful manner of any tenor in this music by a margin




Pagliughi offers a portrayal which has the effect of making the music sound simple, beautiful and deceptively easy - again an interesting contrast with Callas' dramatic genius





Thirdly there is the Capuleti e i Montecchi from 1968 with the trio of Giacomo Aragall, Renata Scotto and Luciano Pavarotti which raises the roof. It may be inauthentic but for me it is one of the most enjoyable, dramatically cogent recordings in the Bellini discography - notably in this episode where Abbado's leadership is accomplished:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

David I pray to the opera gods that Warner label will someday release a complete boxset of the Cetra catalog, great performances by singers/conductors that are sometimes just below the radar screen, expensive to buy them all individually.........the primitive graphics also have a certain charm to them


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

DarkAngel said:


> David I pray to the opera gods that Warner label will someday release a complete boxset of the Cetra catalog, great performances by singers/conductors that are sometimes just below the radar screen, expensive to buy them all individually.........the primitive graphics also have a certain charm to them
> 
> I too have really enjoyed their Cetra recordings - given that remastering technologies have improved so much since the early 2000s when the series were reissued, wouldn't it be terrific to hear these improved the way that Warner did for Callas' Traviata with Santini from the same source. Some of Cetra versions were among the best recorded - I'm thinking Forza del Destino (1941), maybe Falstaff (1949?), Sonnambula (1952), Rigoletto (1954?) - but there are also the starry casts which are just let down a bit by elderly sound such as Filippeschi, Carteri, Taddei, Sciutti, Corena, Tozzi in Guglielmo Tell and Mancini, Filippeschi, Simionato, Panerai in Aida. I think some of these could, with work, sound as good as the EMI and Decca versions from the early 1950s and the repertoire is often more interesting e.g. Ernani, Nabucco, Don Carlo with Caniglia, Stignani et al, I Due Foscari, Boccanegra


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

SimonTemplar said:


> I've just bought this from House of Opera. Finding a decent _Pirata_ is murder! The Opera Rara drags (almost half an hour longer than other recordings!) - like other Opera Rara recordings, it can seem too...academic? The Fogliani is brisk and idiomatic, but Kunde sounds strained in the tenor role. The tenor in the EMI version with Caballé isn't great. The best I've heard is the 1967 live recording with Caballé, but the sound quality's rather boxy.
> 
> Of course, the part really does call for Flórez!


The Callas version from Carnegie Hall in 1959 is notable only for her performance. The tenors are not good by any stretch of the imagination. She is in declining voice, but she wipes everyone off the map by making Imogene live. Available from divinarecords.com









Alas, the edition is cut and you might want to supplement it with Caballe's complete version (which you already have, I understand).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

NickFuller said:


> What recordings of Bellini's operas would his fans recommend?
> 
> I've listened to:
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with the I Capuleti e i Montecchi you listed above, but this one is awesome, especially because of Kasarova:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

NickFuller said:


> What recordings of Bellini's operas would his fans recommend?
> 
> I've listened to:
> 
> ...


As for La Sonnambula with Sutherland, I prefer this one:









Other than that one, I really like the set with Gruberova and the NAXOs set is quite good.


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