# Granate's Beethoven Symphony Challenge - Table 2 (USA)



## Granate

*General introduction to the threads*

This thread is one part of my Beethoven Symphonies Challenge. It will be divided in six episodes or "tables", and will compare a number of Symphony cycles in terms of performing quality and sound. The content of the six tables is closed, so please, don't ask for any cycle to be included.

When each thread is opened, it means they offer my impressions of my favourite cycles and some remarks. You can ask me for my opinion of a lesser rated cycle inside the board and I'll try to reply whenever I can.

Each "table" (except T1) is divided according to the location of the orchestra.


*Table 1* Mono + Historically Informed Performances.
*Table 2* Cycles made in the USA.
*Table 3* Western Europe 1 (Netherlands, France, Italy).
*Table 4* Western Europe 2 (Switzerland, Austria and the UK).
*Tables 5 & 6* German orchestras
Depending on the time, I may do further challenges between the winning sets from Tables 2-6. There is no cutting line in that case. It's possible that one table sends 2 runner-ups and others have 4. Luck can always be a drawback. A decent cycle in the results may not be a waste of time.

Please, take these threads as a recording recommendations and advice for potential buyers. I'm both taking notes of each symphony recording and filling an Excel board with all the cycles and their marks.

Recordings tested on Superlux HD 668B headphones, not speakers.

[HR][/HR]
*Table 2 - USA Beethoven Cycles*


*Conductor**Orchestra**Release*Bernstein, LeonardNew York Philharmonic Orchestra1969, SonyDudamel, GustavoOrquesta Sinfónica Simón Bolívar2017, G.D.Leinsdorf, ErichBoston Symphony Orchestra1967, SonyMaazel, LorinCleveland Orchestra1979, SonyMuti, RiccardoPhiladelphia Orchestra1988, WCOrmandy, EugenePhiladelphia Orchestra1964, SonySolti, GeorgChicago Symphony Orchestra1975, DeccaSolti, GeorgChicago Symphony Orchestra1990, DeccaSzell, GeorgeCleveland Orchestra1968, SonyVänskä, OsmoMinnesota Orchestra2009, BISWalter, BrunoColumbia Symphony Orchestra1963, Sony

[HR][/HR]
The first table of Beethoven Symphonies in modern instruments is quite hard to explain. *This group of cycles was "really strong" in a way.* Also, I should say, balanced in performance quality without any divisions (the ratings are very similar inside each set). I could see why people would buy and love the vast majority of the sets. These were, in alphabetical order, Bernstein NY, Dudamel SB, Muti and Ormandy Philadelphia, Solti CSO 70s, Szell ClO, Vänskä Minnesota and even Walter Columbia. I still don't get the beauties of the Leinsdorf and Maazel cycles in Boston and Cleveland. They are not exactly dull but rough and little polished. Also, I understand why buyers would run away from the Bernstein NY and Walter Columbia cycles, which I found really divisive and quite outbalanced in the conductor-composer relationship.

That is the most sensible paragraph I could write about this table, because I wanted to be fair with everybody before slashing your precious treasures with negative remarks. Only five sets raised my attention, and the others sank in the nothingness of my biased criteria. I'm aware of that. I just can't enjoy them.

Sets that deserve no remarks for me are the *Maazel* and *Solti 90s*. I didn't see the point of their performances and while the Maazel rough sound and "little" personality", the Solti 90s set only improved in sound and a pretty solid Symphony No.5, which I highlight as the only one better than the previous cycle. In almost the same group, the *Leinsdorf Boston set* should receive my same criticisms for roughness and lack of interpretation goals. The exception, as Merl warned me, is a *Symphony No.9* almost unrecognisable inside the set: powerful and cleaner with a first-rate chorus and singers. There are some distortions in the loud parts, but shines inside the cycle. It's the third best Chorale of this Table.

But two cycles that caused a worse impression in me were the *Vänskä* and *Muti* sets. They both share a clean and rounded sound that in spare listen can be enjoyable. They both have a good level and a reason to be bought. But in comparison to others they ended up losing for me. It's just the sound that makes the performances duller for me. Muti does well in No.6 & No.8 and Vänska in the last three symphonies. But not enough for me.

And two fan favourites that failed to impress me were the *first Solti cycle* with Chicago and the *Ormandy Philadelphia* set. They both have very different dynamics but I don't like the sound of Solti and the dynamics of Ormandy. The latter has a quite good average for me with remarkable accounts of No.4 and No.5 and a problematic No.9. Ormandy in fact could have been a highlighted set if it wasn't for George Szell. The orchestral sound is very suitable for many symphonies, but they never finished winning me. The 70s Solti set disappointed me. It's pretty regular, although No.9 is distinctly over the others. Just with the strings and the conducting, there was no element to seduce me. And No.9 while having different dynamics, never showed a different story from the rest of the cycle. Without brass, I don't see anything special in the Chicago Symphony.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Emilia Cundari, Nell Rankin, Albert Da Costa, William Wilderman
Westminster Choir
Columbia Symphony Orchestra 
*Bruno Walter
Sony Classical (1961/2015 Remastered Edition)*

Of all the comparisons, this set was one that impressed be. If you really dislike slow performances of Beethoven, you can perfectly ignore this set. Except No.9, all of them seem like a peaceful stroll by the countryside. It had a very regular average for me, with really good results in No.2 and No.6. What I liked the most of the set, because I could tolerate the pace pretty much, was the sound quality and the distribution of the orchestra. It was a very bold sound for me and benefited lush in the strings in a cleaner way than Ormandy.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Mariana Ortiz, J'nai Bridges, Joshua Guerrero, Soloman Howard
Coro Nacional Juvenil Simón Bolívar
Orquesta Sinfónica Simón Bolívar de Venezuela
*Gustavo Dudamel
Gustavo Dudamel (2017)*

In the same group of "Classical styled" performances (as much as the sound quality could allow, *aham*, Leinsdorf), I found the new Gustavo Dudamel cycle and the classic Szell set that I had rated in the past. This set offers a flowing conducting by Dudamel, avoiding any roughness and adapting themselves to many of the symphonies. It's pretty regular, with worse results in No.3 and No.4 (nothing to complain about). And the best feature of this set is the sound quality that displays all the colours of the orchestra. The whole product never made me fall in love, but I really appreciate it.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Adele Adison, Jane Hobson, Richard Lewis, Donald Bell
Cleveland Orchestra & Chorus
*George Szell
Sony Classical (1964/2013 Remastered Edition)*

While this box doesn't have the remaster one could wish in this set, the Szell Cleveland box proves to be a solid contender for the Beethoven stardom. These are not only safe choices but powerfull, dynamic and clean accounts. It should be the fair winner for many Beethoven lovers of all the American cycles. I found it difficult to ignore. Great accounts in No.3, No.4 and No.7, and very solid in the rest.









Beethoven
_*9 Symphonies*_
Martina Arroyo, Regina Sarfaty, Nicholas di Virgillo, Norman Scott
Julliard Chorus
New York Philharmonic Orchestra
*Leonard Bernstein
Sony Classical (1964/2010 Remastered Edition)*

I find two fair reasons to reject this cycle: sound quality and Bernstein mannerism. It's a highly egotistical and youthful interpretation of Beethoven that resolves in creating lots of dynamics and stereophonic effects with the instruments, splitting the strings. The SQ is warmer and dirtier than the Szell recordings comparing the Sony Masterworks boxes. It's not hissy but gives prominence to cellos and timpani in a very warm environment. And of course, Leonard Bernstein tries to make the score flow so much that Furtwängler seems moderate. It's a take it or leave it cycle, and *I totally take it because it's the kind of Beethoven I was looking for.* I find it so musically strong and well recorded that my first comment on Symphony No.1 was "I'm on the floor". There is only one but: Symphony No.6 misses any spark and becomes a standard interpretation with enough story to tell.

Two new remasters of No.3 and No.5 have been released and sound dramatically different to the old cd incarnations. The soundscape has been cleaned and made brighter (similar to Szell) and while they were still good performances, I couldn't find the same charm. If you dislike this cycle because of the sound, give a go to the new remasters when they are all available.

*Direkt till Final:* Bernstein NYPO & Szell ClO


----------



## wkasimer

Thanks for the survey, Granate. I have a somewhat higher opinion of the Bernstein set than you do, but I otherwise concur, although I've not heard enough of Dudamel's set to comment.

The Szell set also exists in an "Original Jacket" issue, which I'm told sounds better than the set you reference, apparently the same transfers used for the "Essential Classics".

Looking forward to the European sets, which is, IMO, where the action really is.


----------



## Granate

wkasimer said:


> Thanks for the survey, Granate. I have a somewhat higher opinion of the Bernstein set than you do, but I otherwise concur.


I'm sorry if I didn't explain myself better. I had a PM with Merl before about the Bernstein NY set, and I tried to make a point with the features of the set that can drive away to some people. I really love this Bernstein Beethoven cycle.

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaank youuuuuuuuuuu!


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I'm sorry if I didn't explain myself better.


No, your explanation was fine. I should read more carefully instead of skimming....


----------



## Merl

Lol, my PM to you, Granate, was rather uncomplimentary to the Bernstein set. I'll be honest. I particularly dislike Bernstein's New York cycle. Its idiosyncratic, poorly played and badly recorded, IMO. As much as I love Walter in other repertoire, I find his cycle ponderous and dull too but know others rate it highly. I find the Dudamel cycle interesting as after his previous high-octane traversal of 3,5 & 7 for DG I expected his independent cycle to be more of the same but it's a very measured, almost traditional, set. Agree with you largely about the Leinsdorf set. It's very hit and miss (the first two and the last two are the best and that number 9 is summat else). Middle symphonies are all a bit dull and the 5th is very poor. I have similar feelings to you about the Vanska set. It's hugely lauded but I don't get the fuss.... I find it a decent (but not THAT decent) set (with a rubbish 9th) but with a nice Pastoral. Muti is similar for me in all performances, however he weighs in with a killer 7th. My favourite cycle amongst the Americans is most definitely Szell. Superbly played, boisterous and visceral accounts of nearly all symphonies (apart from merely good performances of the first two) and terrific performances of 4, 7, 8 & 9. Szell's set is still highly regarded and rightly so. Can't wait for your reviews of the European cycles either. Interested to hear what you think of some of my favourites, Granate (I'm not gonna tell you what they are)! Incidentally I'll mop up some of the cycles you aren't going to review pretty soon. I have a new current favourite BTW. Its not currently on your review list and no clues from me.


----------



## Granate

Merl said:


> Interested to hear what you think of some of my favourites, Granate *(I'm not gonna tell you what they are)!*


Me: searches in Google site:talkclassical.com beethoven+symphonies+merl


----------



## Merl

Granate said:


> Me: searches in Google site:talkclassical.com beethoven+symphonies+merl


That should give you about 600 threads to read thru. Hahaha!


----------



## realdealblues

Out of this grouping Szell is still the king for me. His cycle is fantastic with no low points, still a benchmark cycle against anyone.

I love the Bernstein NY cycle. The playing is a little rough at times but Bernstein's love for music and joy for Beethoven is apparent throughout. Tempos are well judged and paced. The 9th doesn't have the best soloists but is still good. It's a great cycle and just below Szell for me out of the groupings listed here. 

I also love Walter's cycle and would it on par with Bernstein's for enjoyment factor.

Ormandy and both of Solti's cycles I rate about the same and are just below Walter for me. I find all three enjoyable for different reasons. Those gorgeous Philadelphia strings and the muscular Chicago cycles with their brazen brass section each have merits.

Leinsdorf I really do like overall but it is hit and miss and the sound distorts in loud passages but it's not at the same level as the others. 

Maazel, Muti, then Vanska with Dudamel at the bottom for me.


----------



## Granate

realdealblues said:


> I also love Walter's cycle and would it on par with Bernstein's for enjoyment factor.


How do you compare the Walter and Klemperer studio cycles? I mainly enjoyed the Walter cycle because of the sound and could forgive the slow pace at some symphonies that didn't need it as much as No.6.

The day the complete Sony remaster of the Berstein NY cycle is released, tables will turn. They have nothing in common.


----------



## realdealblues

Granate said:


> How do you compare the Walter and Klemperer studio cycles? I mainly enjoyed the Walter cycle because of the sound and could forgive the slow pace at some symphonies that didn't need it as much as No.6.


I love the sound of the Klemperer cycle but your ears are different than mine. He and Walter are on the opposite ends of each other as far as interpretation. Walter's Beethoven sounds jovial, it's happy and light, where Klemperer is grimm, heavy and serious. Klemperer is like a a moving mountain, it moves slow but never loses momentum. Both approaches are perfectly acceptable and valid in my eyes or ears as it may be.


----------



## Merl

realdealblues said:


> I love the sound of the Klemperer cycle but your ears are different than mine. He and Walter are on the opposite ends of each other as far as interpretation. Walter's Beethoven sounds jovial, it's happy and light, where Klemperer is grimm, heavy and serious. Klemperer is like a a moving mountain, it moves slow but never loses momentum. Both approaches are perfectly acceptable and valid in my eyes or ears as it may be.


I 've never got on with Walter's cycle but Ive warmed to Klemperer's slow, gigantic sound over time.the PRISTINE remakes have brought the cycle alive for me. Sometimes the speeds are too leaden and make certain symphonies a trudge (the 7th, in particular, is joyless and all wrong for me) but otherwise the tempi don't worry me too much and the sound Klemperer gets is so huge it sucks you in. Wow, I never thought I'd be lauding the Klemperer cycle!


----------



## classfolkphile

I love Beethoven's symphonies above all others. Out of the couple of dozen complete sets I've listened to however, I've never found one I liked all the way through. A successful set, for me, gets about half of the symphonies right. I've also listened to a couple or more symphonies from another two dozen plus conductors.

For reference, I've listened to CDs or CDs ripped to a hard drive on a ($20k+) tubed based system with time aligned, phase coherent speakers.

I've only heard a few symphonies by Leinsdorf and in addition to the criticisms above, with which I agree, found him too fast. I found Solti's last 9th harsh and unlistenable while his '70s set is pretty consistently good, if ordinary, but with sound that is weighted toward the brass.

Ormandy's Philadelphia set is a straight forward one, with good conducting and playing, but nothing stands out as exceptional and the textures are too thick and heavy. It sounds like a 150 person orchestra. Muti's Philadelphia 6th and 9th are well played and conducted in dry, harsh sound.

I like Szell's Nos. 2, 3, 5, and 8 (the last my favorite 8) and Walter's Nos. 3, 4 and 6. The rest are either too fast in the former's set or too uneven in tempi and playing in the latter's.

As Merl said about Bernstein's set: "Its idiosyncratic, poorly played and badly recorded..." With the exception, however, of his 4th which is the most joyful account I've heard.

Vanska is almost uniformaly clinical, despite great sound. Again, however, with the exception of the 4th, which is excellent.

I haven't heard the other recordings.


----------



## Mal

I also rate the Walter set very highly, especially for the even numbered symphonies. That and Karajan '63, for the odd numbers, and I don't need anything else! (Do I?)


----------



## classfolkphile

Mal said:


> I also rate the Walter set very highly, especially for the even numbered symphonies. That and Karajan '63, for the odd numbers, and I don't need anything else! (Do I?)


Sure, dozens more recordings! You can never have too much Beethoven. :lol:

Actually that is a pretty good combination of sets for a basic Beethoven library. The sound quality is limited though and if that matters, then I would recommend the Wand/NDR set which has superb sound and is the most consistently excellent set I know. (Don't want to hijack this thread but I don't know if you'll follow the threads to come, which will undoubtedly provide much more thoughtful insight.)


----------



## KenOC

I find myself often returning to René Leibowitz's cycle with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. It's old but in good clear stereo sound. Brisk high-energy readings while still lyrical where called for. Virtuosic woodwinds. Makes most cycles of its time (Klemperer and Walter both!) seem a bit stodgy and even elephantine. HIP before HIP?

Looks like it's only available in a massive super-bargain download, which is fine given the price of $2.69!

https://www.amazon.com/Genius-Beeth...bums-bar-strip-0&keywords=genius+of+beethoven


----------



## Granate

KenOC said:


> I find myself often returning to René Leibowitz's cycle with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. It's old but in good clear stereo sound.


I sampled some Leibowitz symphonies in the Naxos remasters and although those were for me the best editions of the recordings, I was underwhelmed by the poor stereo sound. Because of the extra difficulty to purchase on CD, both the Leibowitz and Krips cycles were left out of the challenge. I'm very sorry.



classfolkphile said:


> I would recommend the Wand/NDR set which has superb sound and is the most consistently excellent set I know. (Don't want to hijack this thread but *I don't know if you'll follow the threads to come,* which will undoubtedly provide much more thoughtful insight.)


Soon, I'll resume my Beethoven challenge in Table 3. Wand NDR will be reviewed in Table 5. Otherwise, I don't really understand the remark in bold above.

I'm just too obsessed with Opera


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> Because of the extra difficulty to purchase on CD, both the Leibowitz and Krips cycles were left out of the challenge.


If anyone is interested in physical product, the Leibowitz cycle was also issued here:

https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Treasury-Readers-Digest-Cds/dp/B007QYONLK

I can't comment on the sonics compared to the Chesky issues of the individual discs, which are prohibitively expensive.


----------



## Merl

Leibowitz has always been a good, solid no-frills set with quicker tempi than those that followed but no real stand-out performance. The Krips set sounds very dated. It's underpowered and a bit stodgy and certainly wouldn't have made a dent on this challenge. As i said, Granate, Ill round up a few of the ones you don't review at the end of your challenge (but not Krips).


----------



## classfolkphile

Granate said:


> Soon, I'll resume my Beethoven challenge in Table 3. Wand NDR will be reviewed in Table 5. Otherwise, I don't really understand the remark in bold above.
> 
> I'm just too obsessed with Opera


That remark was addressed to Mal, who asked if he needed any other Beethoven recordings.


----------



## classfolkphile

Merl said:


> Leibowitz has always been a good, solid no-frills set with quicker tempi than those that followed but no real stand-out performance. The Krips set sounds very dated. It's underpowered and a bit stodgy and certainly wouldn't have made a dent on this challenge. As i said, Granate, Ill round up a few of the ones you don't review at the end of your challenge (but not Krips).


Re: Krips, I again agree with Merl. :wave:


----------



## KenOC

Granate said:


> I sampled some Leibowitz symphonies in the Naxos remasters and although those were for me the best editions of the recordings, I was underwhelmed by the poor stereo sound.


FWIW the sound on the cheap Leibowitz download is praised by several Amazon reviewers. It certainly sounds fine to me. I don't know what might account for the difference from the Naxos re-issue.


----------



## KenOC

Merl said:


> The Krips set sounds very dated. It's underpowered and a bit stodgy and certainly wouldn't have made a dent on this challenge.


The Krips set was the first I owned, on LP. It was all I could afford then. I recently repurchased it on CD as "Krips in the Can." The metal snap box with Beethoven on the front is on my desk holding this and that. The CDs I threw away.


----------



## Granate

Merl said:


> As i said, Granate, Ill round up a few of the ones you don't review at the end of your challenge (but not Krips).


Don't forget the two Norrington and Mackerras! There has been another "HIP" release by the Pocket Symphony orchestra. It sounded like a prank but the excerpts... take after the orchestra's name...


----------



## Merl

Granate said:


> Don't forget the two Norrington and Mackerras! There has been another "HIP" release by the Pocket Symphony orchestra. It sounded like a prank but the excerpts... take after the orchestra's name...


Are you referring to the Stangel release, Granate? If so I have it. It's 'interesting'. That's all I'll say for now.


----------



## KenOC

Since we're talking about Leibowitz, this appears to be the same person who published a pamphlet in 1955 titled (in French), "Sibelius: The Worst Composer in the World." We should not be surprised that we have no complete Sibelius cycle from M. Leibowitz.


----------



## Larkenfield

Someday Ernest Ansermet's excellent, warm, and well-recorded Beethoven cycle with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande is going to be discovered (that can be heard online). I'd post the link but it's probably not in keeping with the intentions of this thread. His 'Eroica' is one of the most thrilling and fresh-sounding I've heard. I've rarely seen any serious listener content to have only one Beethoven cycle, no matter how highly rated. Different ones are one of the best ways to learn about a conductor's abilities, and just about every major baton waver has recorded them, with some pleasant surprises in the mix for the adventurous. All the symphonies take only about 6 hours to hear. These are truly great works and some of the lesser known cycles are full of lyricism, suspense, fury, and humanity.


----------



## CnC Bartok

Another survey well worth taking into account, many thanks Granate! I am struggling to disagree with this, beyond my usual disagreement with the elevated status of Bernstein (sorry, heck and other fans!).

I'd have ranked these Walter, Szell, Solti. The Dudamel is totally unfamiliar to me. Thoroughly agree with the instant dismissal of both Vanska and Muti....

The one I thought might be covered here is Walter's earlier New York set. Awful sound, and for me the Columbia set wins hands down, but the earlier one is worth hearing.

Thanks for continuing with your survey

Btw where are you going to put the Central European cycles, surely not under "German"!? I have a couple of great sets with Polish orchestras (yeah I'm including the very good Menuhin cycle!), a grossly underrated Hungarian set, and a top handful ever Czech set, if we're going by orchestra not conductor. And if we go further east, one wonderfully fresh athletic Russian set.


----------



## Granate

Larkenfield said:


> Someday Ernest Ansermet's excellent, warm and well-recorded Beethoven cycle with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande is going to be discovered (that can be heard online).


No need to, Larkenfield. It will be reviewed in Table 4. Cheers.



Robert Pickett said:


> Btw where are you going to put the Central European cycles, surely not under "German"!? I have a couple of great sets with Polish orchestras (yeah I'm including the very good Menuhin cycle!), a grossly underrated Hungarian set, and a top handful ever Czech set, if we're going by orchestra not conductor. And if we go further east, one wonderfully fresh athletic Russian set.


Kletzki will be reviewed in Table 4. I'm afraid that I won't rate the Rajski, Menuhin or Ferencsik cycles, and I don't know whether to finally include the Pletnev cycle in Table 4 too. The fact it has been released individually by the Virtuoso editions in DG makes me feel suspicious.


----------



## Merl

Larkenfield said:


> Someday Ernest Ansermet's excellent, warm, and well-recorded Beethoven cycle with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande is going to be discovered (that can be heard online). I'd post the link but it's probably not in keeping with the intentions of this thread. His 'Eroica' is one of the most thrilling and fresh-sounding I've heard. I've rarely seen any serious listener content to have only one Beethoven cycle, no matter how highly rated. Different ones are one of the best ways to learn about a conductor's idiosyncrasies and style and just about every major baton waver has recorded them, with some real surprises in the mix for the adventurous. All the symphonies take only about 6 hours to hear. These are truly great symphonies and some of the lesser known cycles are full of lyricism, suspense, fury, and humanity.


Couldn't agree more. Tremendous cycle and the 7th is just superb.


----------



## classfolkphile

Larkenfield said:


> Someday Ernest Ansermet's excellent, warm, and well-recorded Beethoven cycle with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande is going to be discovered (that can be heard online).


It is also available on CD on the Decca Australian Eloquence label through both Amazon and Presto Classical. May have to try it.


----------



## Merl

My only criticism (if it is one) of the Ansermet cycle is that it is a bit unyielding. If you like your Beethoven hard-driven and exciting (like me) this isn't a problem but for some Ansermet's boisterous approach might rob them of some of its lighter moments and subtleties. Not my opinion but I could see why others might think that. All depends on what you want from a complete set. Personally I like it a lot.


----------



## Star

realdealblues said:


> I love the sound of the Klemperer cycle but your ears are different than mine. He and Walter are on the opposite ends of each other as far as interpretation. Walter's Beethoven sounds jovial, it's happy and light, where Klemperer is grimm, heavy and serious. Klemperer is like a a moving mountain, it moves slow but never loses momentum. Both approaches are perfectly acceptable and valid in my eyes or ears as it may be.


I love the sound Klemperer makes but I find HS speeds often too slow. But try the 1955 7th for him at his best.


----------



## Granate

Thank you for the comments in this thread, although they have nothing to do with American Beethoven cycles and we go back to the usual debates about European cycles. Star. I liked the mono No.5 in studio way more than No.3 and No.7. 

I'm now in Symphony No.2 of my Table 3 (Western European orchestras 1) and the sensations are the most underwhelming yet. I still doubt if any cycle there could make it to the final challenge.


----------



## wkasimer

Granate said:


> I'm now in Symphony No.2 of my Table 3 (Western European orchestras 1) and the sensations are the most underwhelming yet. I still doubt if any cycle there could make it to the final challenge.


Are you including Jan Willem de Vriend's cycle with the Netherlands SO, on Challenge? I'm not sure that it'd make my "final challenge", but I think that it's quite good. So is John Nelson's set with a Parisian orchestra.


----------



## Granate

wkasimer said:


> Are you including Jan Willem de Vriend's cycle with the Netherlands SO, on Challenge? I'm not sure that it'd make my "final challenge", but I think that it's quite good. So is John Nelson's set with a Parisian orchestra.












Guess the meaning.


----------



## Granate

I'm through Symphony No.8 in Table 3 and because of some compromises I'll carry on with Table 4 without any opera in between.

Don't be very optimistic with Table 3.


----------



## Merl

Tbh, I only rate one set in Table 3 (and only the even numbered symphonies in another set) Granate. The rest are all OK but that's it. Looking forward to Table 4 far more.


----------



## Granate

Merl said:


> The rest are all OK but that's it.


Bingo! I want to write the review of Table 3 already but I need to find time together with my driving studies.

I even tested The Allegro con brio from Symphony No.7 by Claudio Abbado with the Wiener Philharmoniker and despite a muddy sound, it showed far more soul than 85% of the Table 3 cycles.


----------



## Merl

You don't like Kubelik? Ooh, contentious!


----------



## Granate

Hahahahahahahahaha


----------



## Varick

Anther great thread. The most disappointing part of this thread was coming to the baffling realization that I do not own the Szell cycle. I must remedy this immediately! 

Again, I'm with Merl, I have never "got" Walter's Beethoven. However, the worst IMO on your list is Muti. It was given to me as a gift in the mid '90's. I've always felt the sound was muddy, the pace plodding, and no real excitement except perhaps his 7th. 

Enjoying these threads.

V


----------



## Merl

Varick said:


> Anther great thread. The most disappointing part of this thread was coming to the baffling realization that I do not own the Szell cycle. I must remedy this immediately!
> 
> Again, I'm with Merl, I have never "got" Walter's Beethoven. However, the worst IMO on your list is Muti. It was given to me as a gift in the mid '90's. I've always felt the sound was muddy, the pace plodding, and no real excitement except perhaps his 7th.
> 
> V


Yep, I'm the same with Muti' s cycle (apart from the 7th which he nails).


----------



## wkasimer

Varick said:


> Anther great thread. The most disappointing part of this thread was coming to the baffling realization that I do not own the Szell cycle. I must remedy this immediately!


Keep your eye on eBay and Amazon Marketplace. Now that the complete Szell has been released, I suspect that plenty of people will be looking to sell their copies of the "Original Jacket" Beethoven box. There's also a dirt cheap Sony Masters box, but the sound isn't quite as good.


----------

