# Which Famous Classical Singers Shouldn't be Famous?



## MarieTregubovich

Sounds kind of harsh, but there are some. 
Like, the children singing stuff that they shouldn't sing *COUGH* Jackie Evancho *COUGH*


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## PetrB

MarieTregubovich said:


> Sounds kind of harsh, but there are some.
> Like, the children singing stuff that they shouldn't sing *COUGH* Jackie Evancho *COUGH*


Ms. Evancho might have some moth-like lifespan notoriety, but she is not a "famous classical singer." No one who knows classical is taken in by that for one moment. Ditto for the more established popera stars, like Katherine Jenkins, etc.

"World famous classical singers" _are_ world famous classical singers.

ERGO: Your OP has no real point.


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## MarieTregubovich

Sorry for using the wrong wording, but just people in that general area . . . of fame. That is kind of what most regular people would consider to be a 'famous opera/classical singer'


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## PetrB

MarieTregubovich said:


> Sorry for using the wrong wording, but just people in that general area . . . of fame. That is kind of what most regular people would consider to be a 'famous opera/classical singer'


I think you are incorrect, unless 'most people' is a section of the populace who also think the music Andre Rieu performs is the genuine article. It is maybe a goodly number of the general public, but I also think those people are not as misinformed as you think.

There is a lot of hype around this kind of performing, ala "American Idol" and all the pop press tactics as applied to the Popera stars. It seems when the question, or misunderstanding, shows up on this site, or say, Yahoo answers, it is almost always a very young person who mistakes these for 'actual classical music or the performers as genuine classical performers.


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## MarieTregubovich

I didn't "mistake" anything, I just couldn't think of a term that best fitted what kind of person Jackie Evancho, or anyone that's like her, is. Yeah, it's probably a bad question that could have been said so differently, but I just wanted to ask a question, and I had been talking to some people that think Jackie Evancho singing things like 'O Mio Babbino Caro' is perfectly fine, which it's not, going along with the whole idea of when little kids become famous they sing things that they're too young to sing, especially people like Jackie, and Charlotte Church - I don't know MUCH about her, but I am pretty sure she was in the same situation as Jackie Evancho, where she got into that kind of business at a young age and sang things for much more mature voices, and then eventually bad things will happen to her voice, you know the rest of the story - I am going off on a tangent, but point being, though the question was probably worded so very incorrectly, and probably was a silly question to ask anyways, I was talking about singers -that obviously aren't Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga kind of 'pop' - but are what one tends to think of as classical, or as you say (which would've probably been better for me to put), Popera stars. 
My apologies for writing a completely stupid question.


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## PetrB

Not stupid at all. Those who know a bit about proper voice training and heard what Evancho was doing, was trained and permitted to do, were more than a little horrified about it... the motivation for her to sing like that clearly came from an abundantly over-ambitious parent or teacher. I believe her mother is a voice coach. Maybe that parent thought it would be good for her coaching business. 

Of Course that kind of singing from a child ruins the voice, forever. Overbooking and overuse will kill it that much faster.

Children are supposed to only sing like and sound like children, that essential if they are to keep their voice and develop it later as an adult after it changes.
.
"Popera" star I suppose is a more mocking or derogatory term, in wide enough circulation, but it won't be showing up in the press from the agents as a word to promote Josh Grobin, Andrea Bocelli, Katherine Jenkins, and all the rest.

Actually, most of those in the Popera / pop classical gneres would be the first to tell you they are not "Opera Singers," having never sung a full-length role in an opera in a professional production during their lives so far... without a microphone, anyway.

I think the publicists are happy that the public thinks these pop entertainers singing bits of classical for a pop market are thought of as classical singers, and promote that idea. Since it is pretty well understood that the general public thinks classical music is an elitist class affair, they can feel 'elevated' about their social status as art consumers if they are consuming what they think is classical music -- of course that is a strong inverse snobbery, which of course is ridiculous, but there you go.

I'd remind your friends that singers in the classical area do not use microphones during a recital, a concert when they are a soloist, singing over a huge orchestra, or in the opera house. That is one very visible bit of evidence they may understand.

You might also tell them almost all the arias from operas they do hear via the popera star are often cut, shortened, and the harder bits also cut out i.e. simplified, not just for the audience but so the singer doesn't look bad trying to do that which they cannot, and which the opera singer can -- often enough the case.


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## moody

MarieTregubovich said:


> Sorry for using the wrong wording, but just people in that general area . . . of fame. That is kind of what most regular people would consider to be a 'famous opera/classical singer'


I certainly hope not,I'm a "regular" person and I don't consider these dreadful people to be famous anythings.
The Evancho child is new to me ,I'm glad to say,but sounds ghastly.
Without trying to put you down as you may well be a young complete beginner let me suggest the following.
Have a look at the forums on TC that deal particularly with opera and make some notes,also listen where examples are given.
cruise around a bit on youtube and see what impresses you.
Also speak to any friends and relations who are into opera.


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## PetrB

Of interest to you about this variance of which kind of singer is what....
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/news/these-people-have-never-sung-an-opera-in-their-lives-6296320.html


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## Volve

Petr, that's a very interesting article, and Mr. Allen said everything that need be said. It seems that today's society need for a pretty face on the cover is starting to rub on opera as well, and a gender that is one of music's finest, is now being ridiculed, to the point where a singer's size is enough to get them fired, despite the voice (i believe we all know who I'm talking about here). Seeing stuff like this happening, and the wild spread of this terrible, terrible new pop music that we have (those ridiculous teen idols who can't sing if their lives depended on it) really makes me worry about the future of music. I had the hardest of times trying to explain to a friend that classical singers don't use microphones nor have playback. She adores this bad pop music we have today, and it boils down to playback and computerized voices. She could not understand the concept of an opera singer. 

And honestly, it makes me quite worried for the future of me and many others who aspire to sing opera. In 10 years from now, what will it be like? I can't help but fear that good voices will be sacrificed for a pretty face or a slim body. Can you imagine the disaster it would have been if Jessye Norman couldn't make a career because she wasn't anorexic? Think about the loss it would have been to music. And I fear that the future might be just this.


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## maestro57

Oh my... Jackie Evancho = cannot stand. She's like a Dakota Fanning = cannot tolerate.


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## rborganist

Some of these people who sing classical music probably shouldn't, and if they tried to do it without a microphone, they probably wouldn't last a year. However, there have been some classically trained singers who lacked staying power, usually because they took on repertoire for which their voice was simply not ready. A prime example was soprano Elena Suliotis who made her La Scala debut in 1966 at the age of 23 in the exceedingly strenuous role of Abigaille in Verdi's Nabucco. She also took on Tosca, La Gioconda, Lady Macbeth, Norma, Turandot, and Minnie in La Faniculla del West. Within ten years, her voice was shot; it reportedly started to fall apart in a performance of Nabucco at the Philadelphia Academy of Music. She made a comeback about 15 years later singing mezzo parts, but this was at a time when she should have been in her prime as a soprano. Nor was she the interpreter that Maria Callas was. There are a few opera houses (I think Chicago may be one) which seat 9000 people and which must use amplification, but it is certainly not the norm. Most houses use microphones only if they broadcast (as the Met does), and then they are not placed at the front of the stage. On the other handd, there are singers who deserved to be famous but never made it big, but that's another thread.


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## KateSmith

maestro57 said:


> Oh my... Jackie Evancho = cannot stand. She's like a Dakota Fanning = cannot tolerate.


I disagree with you/ Kackie Evancho is not so bad!


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## moody

KateSmith said:


> I disagree with you/ Kackie Evancho is not so bad!


Yes? and what else do you have to say on the subject?


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## PetrB

rborganist said:


> Some of these people who sing classical music probably shouldn't, and if they tried to do it without a microphone, they probably wouldn't last a year. However, there have been some classically trained singers who lacked staying power, usually because they took on repertoire for which their voice was simply not ready. A prime example was soprano Elena Suliotis who made her La Scala debut in 1966 at the age of 23 in the exceedingly strenuous role of Abigaille in Verdi's Nabucco. She also took on Tosca, La Gioconda, Lady Macbeth, Norma, Turandot, and Minnie in La Faniculla del West. Within ten years, her voice was shot; it reportedly started to fall apart in a performance of Nabucco at the Philadelphia Academy of Music. She made a comeback about 15 years later singing mezzo parts, but this was at a time when she should have been in her prime as a soprano. Nor was she the interpreter that Maria Callas was. There are a few opera houses (I think Chicago may be one) which seat 9000 people and which must use amplification, but it is certainly not the norm. Most houses use microphones only if they broadcast (as the Met does), and then they are not placed at the front of the stage. On the other handd, there are singers who deserved to be famous but never made it big, but that's another thread.


You must be mixing up an auditorium venue with an opera house to come up with that 9000 seating capacity (Kiel Auditorium, St. Louis, seats about 9000) Seating capacity in the world's larger opera houses is more like 3600 - 3800, and the acoustics are deathly important when designing such a venue. The Chicago Lyric Opera has a seating capacity of 3,563.

Yes, if in an auditorium with a seating capacity of 9000, the three tenors or some such give a concert, or likewise if done in an open air coliseum which also seats near 10,000, microphones will be involved. I can think of no opera house where there is, usually, amplification for the singers -- nor can I imagine where the practice, if once detected, would be considered at all acceptable.


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## Vesteralen

Not sure if I understand all the angst here. As far as I can see, the only one possibly being really hurt here is Ms Evancho herself (or any similarly-inclined youngster whose voice may be ruined by incorrect use at such an early age).

Are striving hopeful opera stars being hurt? I can't see how. Is the "audience" being hurt? Again, it's hard to see how. Is anyone already inclined to support real opera going to change their mind because of seeing or hearing Ms. Evancho, Ms. Jenkins or El Divo? Not likely. Is any potential real-opera supporter going to have their potential support aborted by them? No. Is opera being "ridiculed"? How? At worst, some people already unknowledgeable about Opera (and who really don't care about it anyway) may get a somewhat inaccurate idea of it. So what? On the plus side, there may be a few otherwise-uninclined people who actually find their way to the real stuff via this unlikely lesser "art".

So, if there is any anger to be expended here, it seems as if it should be directed toward those who may be knowingly exploiting the talents of children to their eventual harm - if indeed there really are such folks. But, to spew out hateful comments toward Ms Evancho herself seems oddly misdirected. I don't know the young woman myself to be able to evaluate whether she is the lovely young lady she seems or is really a spoiled brat in disguise, but then, I doubt if anyone else here is in that position either.

As to Mr. Grumpy-Baritone who wrote the above-referenced article - he has a problem with the package being more important than the product. (He wasn't referring to Ms Evancho, btw - his comments seemed to be more directed toward performers like Opera Babes or Summer from a few years back.) But, guess what? The established opera producers are guilty of the same thing. Just look at Anna Netrebko's "videos", or all the gratuitous nudity, sex and violence in contemporary Reietheater. A lot of people are targeting visual elements at the expense of the aural. There doesn't seem to be any reason to get all worked up over a cute little girl singing when you factor all that into the mix.

If we're looking for the causes for the death of Opera, it seems to me we may be looking in the wrong place.


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## Couac Addict

No idea who Evancho is but courtesy of youtube, that's been rectified.
She loves to scoop those lows. She doesn't look too comfortable with the phrasings either.
If she was an adult, I'd give her 10yrs at the very most. She's reaching too much for her voice to remain sustainable.
I've no idea how this relates to a child. I'm assuming that it'd be considerably less as her voice isn't developed yet.
5yrs, perhaps?
I expect she'll go the way of Charlotte Church and countless others before her.
Her audience may not care but it'll almost certainly prevent her from achieving anything credible in opera.


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## Ambergris

Jackie has a sweet voice colour, maybe we call it pop opera


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## Jobis

Vesteralen said:


> Not sure if I understand all the angst here. As far as I can see, the only one possibly being really hurt here is Ms Evancho herself (or any similarly-inclined youngster whose voice may be ruined by incorrect use at such an early age).
> 
> Are striving hopeful opera stars being hurt? I can't see how. Is the "audience" being hurt? Again, it's hard to see how. Is anyone already inclined to support real opera going to change their mind because of seeing or hearing Ms. Evancho, Ms. Jenkins or El Divo? Not likely. Is any potential real-opera supporter going to have their potential support aborted by them? No. Is opera being "ridiculed"? How? At worst, some people already unknowledgeable about Opera (and who really don't care about it anyway) may get a somewhat inaccurate idea of it. So what? On the plus side, there may be a few otherwise-uninclined people who actually find their way to the real stuff via this unlikely lesser "art".
> 
> So, if there is any anger to be expended here, it seems as if it should be directed toward those who may be knowingly exploiting the talents of children to their eventual harm - if indeed there really are such folks. But, to spew out hateful comments toward Ms Evancho herself seems oddly misdirected. I don't know the young woman myself to be able to evaluate whether she is the lovely young lady she seems or is really a spoiled brat in disguise, but then, I doubt if anyone else here is in that position either.
> 
> As to Mr. Grumpy-Baritone who wrote the above-referenced article - he has a problem with the package being more important than the product. (He wasn't referring to Ms Evancho, btw - his comments seemed to be more directed toward performers like Opera Babes or Summer from a few years back.) But, guess what? The established opera producers are guilty of the same thing. Just look at Anna Netrebko's "videos", or all the gratuitous nudity, sex and violence in contemporary Reietheater. A lot of people are targeting visual elements at the expense of the aural. There doesn't seem to be any reason to get all worked up over a cute little girl singing when you factor all that into the mix.
> 
> If we're looking for the causes for the death of Opera, it seems to me we may be looking in the wrong place.


Death of opera? I remember reading that the met's audiences for last year was the youngest demographic its ever had. People aren't stupid, with the internet as a tool for discovering old music and recordings it's bringing more popularity to opera, even if its just because people are sick of popular music and want something different. Obviously it will never be as mainstream or popular as it was back in Mozart or Rossini's day, but its not going to die.

As Zeffirelli said, 'I don't think a generation of monsters will grow up who will never be touched by the story of Violetta and Alfredo'


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## Fortinbras Armstrong

Or Florence Foster Jenkins


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## Aramis

or Marco Materazzi


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## moody

Fortinbras Armstrong said:


> Or Florence Foster Jenkins


What about her exactly,do explain what you mean.


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## moody

Aramis said:


> or Marco Materazzi


He sings opera ? That will cause head-butting !


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## DavidA

I was reading an article concerning these child singers like church and Evancho. A singing teacher was saying that it is possibly the worst thing you can do to a child's voice to force it like that. Apparently a girls voice also breaks like the boys does around about the age of 13. Too ambitious singing at this stage will ruin the voice in later life. The parents who are on the gravy train created by the children need their heads examining.


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## stevederekson

Maria Callas did not have a particularly impressive voice.


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## AliceKettle

Jackie Evancho, Connie Talbot, Hollie Steel and every other young child singer whose parents probably force them on stage. Don't get me wrong, their voices are pretty enough for little girls, but they are in no way outstanding. Their voices have great potential, and could be amazing in time with training and proper vocal technique. However, they are peaking with fame far too early in their lives, and still have a long way to go before they can be considered real vocalists.


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## AliceKettle

Fortinbras Armstrong said:


> Or Florence Foster Jenkins


I've listened to her sing on youtube to have myself a good laugh. She truly does have the most horrid classical voice I've ever heard. LOL! Listen to her sing Der Holle Rache; her high F's sound like squealing puppies. I'm nowhere near ready to sing any Queen of the Night aria, but even my high F's sound better than that.


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## hpowders

Placido Domingo = boring and predictable.


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## AliceKettle

It seems like every little girl on a talent show sings Puccini's opera aria O mio Babbino Caro from Gianni Schicchi. I haven't learned the aria personally, but I know it's for a lyric soprano. These little girls voices haven't even settled into a fach yet, and O mio Babbino Caro, while light, does require great breath support and clear high A flats. The point is that some of these girls might not even be true sopranos, and they could be straining their voices.


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## Posie

I remember when Charlotte Church first became famous. My mother went crazy over her and bought all of her albums. When she now laments that C.C. now only sings pop-music, I tell her it's because she has ruined her voice, but she is convinced that C.C. has gone as far as she can go with the opera repertoire. (Yeah, _that's_ what it is.)

Now, she fawns over Jackie Evancho the exact same way. She still doesn't like real opera won't listen to it with me. She only likes child prodigies.

There's a great entry from a professional opera singer's blog called "The Worship of Mediocrity". I think it expresses the phenomenon really well.

http://100lbs.typepad.com/mezzo_with_character/2013/11/the-worship-of-mediocrity.html


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## Bellinilover

PeterB wrote:

_Children are supposed to only sing like and sound like children, that essential if they are to keep their voice and develop it later as an adult after it changes._

Exactly. Even if you forget opera for a moment and listen to the child stars who played lead roles in Broadway or film musicals -- Andrea McArdle, Daisy Eagan, or even Judy Garland -- they sounded their actual ages, not (as Evancho does) like "little adults." For example, if you listen to the cast recording of _The Secret Garden_ you'll hear that Daisy Eagan sounds like an eleven year old girl who hasn't learned to manage her high register yet -- which is perfectly fine, especially since most of her music doesn't go very high anyway (which was no doubt the composer's intention). You might say that Garland sounded "adult," but I think she just naturally had a mature-sounding voice; it didn't sound "manufactured" as Evancho's does to me. As for McArdle (the original Annie on Broadway), I've listened to her singing as an adult, and it rightly sounds much more "finished" and polished than her youthful singing sounded (good as that was).

What I can't understand about Katherine Jenkins is why she is even considered a good _pop_ singer. There's a video of her on Youtube paying "tribute" to Garland and Barbra Streisand by singing songs they sang. Jenkins' voice is breathy and unsupported, and her phrasing is amateurish. There is simply no comparison between her singing and that of Garland's or Streisand's. I simply don't understand why this woman is famous. It can't be just her looks, can it?


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## Headphone Hermit

Bellinilover said:


> What I can't understand about Katherine Jenkins is why she is even considered a good _pop_ singer. .... I simply don't understand why this woman is famous. It can't be just her looks, can it?


I guess that many people like this type of thing - and they are welcome to do so

All my friends and family know that they'd waste their money if they bought me anything like this, but each to their own


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## Pugg

hpowders said:


> Placido Domingo = boring and predictable.


Try the John Denver/ Domingo Album, ( with out your prejudice )you will be surprised


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## Bellinilover

hpowders said:


> Placido Domingo = boring and predictable.


His characters do all tend to sound the same, but I wouldn't say I find him boring; and many times his tonal beauty is its own reward. A perfect example, for me, is his Tannhauser under Sinopoli, which I'm listening to right now. There's also what I feel is the most thrilling performance of his I've seen yet, "Quando le sere al placido" from LUISA MILLER in a Met telecast. (Of course, if you don't like Domingo to begin with, then it's very possible you might not find this all that exciting; but I did want to post it anyway.):


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## gsdkfasdf

Yeah this is what a kid should sound like, going back to the whole Evancho conversation. Sills sings clearly, beautifully, and doesn't try to disguise her kid-voice or emulate adult singers. Judging from her career she was doing things very right.


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## Dedalus

Callas?


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