# Youth and Classical Music - How to solve the crisis?



## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

Hello everyone.

I have just edited a new article about "Youth and Classical Music" on virtualsheetmusic.com, and I'd love to have your opinion about it:

Youth and Classical Music - How to solve the crisis?

The article has been written by Jennifer Vose, our senior editor and excellent writer, and includes an exclusive interview with Jon Weber, the Director of School and Family Programs with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (CSO).

I think that as a music teacher, it is a very sensitive matter and we should do something to solve the classical music crisis.

I look forward for your thoughts and opinion.

All the best,

Fabrizio


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Great article there. Lot's of thought went into it and there are many good ideas. But frankly, I think it's a lost cause. Not that I'm giving up. It's this culture we live in where genuine greatness is not appreciated. Not only in music, either. The movies, books, theatre have all been lost to popular culture.

Regarding music in schools: I live in an area where school music programs are rampant. Every high school within a 25 mile radius has a large string program with a full symphony. Bands abound - although marching band gets the focus nowadays. Kids participate in all kinds of competitions and festivals and are certainly exposed to classical music. Many take private lessons and the result is there are some supremely talented kids out there. I'm playing a concert this week with a 13-year old doing the Waxman Carmen Fantasie - and he plays it brilliantly. These school music programs have been strong for decades. Yet, where are they when they graduate? Our local community orchestras are starved for good players. Orchestras compete to get the string players. Wind are percussion players can be hard to find, too. There must be hundreds, maybe thousands, of well-trained music students graduating from high school every year, but something is wrong with music education. These students do not go on to play in local groups nor do they show up as audience members. So much for lifelong learning and the idea that if we introduce kids to classical in school that it will carry over into adulthood. Doesn't seem to happen, at least in my part of the world.

I can blame other things: the closing of record stores where I, as a kid, would spend hours browsing the racks reading the liner notes. Warner Bros. cartoons with their use of classical music was huge influence, as were the Universal Horror movies from the 30s and 40s with those great, late-romantic scores. Sadly though, the public today wants cheap, quick thrills. There are places where it thrives - London, Boston, Berlin, St. Petersburg, but in the US it seems like everyday another orchestra is facing bad news, like Baltimore. Morris Berman wrote a book about how American Culture is being snuffed out and the way forward is for those of us who love it to take on the monastic tradition: keep it alive in our own way and be the lit candle in a darkened world. Then, maybe, the world will wake up and we'll be there to light the pathway. Trouble is, so many of us are getting old and may not be around long enough to help.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

The audience for CM may wax and wane, but it's been a niche market for years, and I don't see it dying. Kids, and even adults, gravitate to what speaks to them, and that changes over time. I exposed my kids to good stuff. Both learned rudimentary violin. One listens to Phish and rap through compromised hearing. The other is a set designer, likes opera, and hopes to design an operatic set or two in his career. One for two isn't bad these days.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I wonder. Some of the traditions of CM performance are a real turn off for many young people but I am not so convinced that the declining interest in CM is real or, if it is, can be located in the young. Certainly in Britain you still see a lot of young people attending concerts on the Proms festival (and probably elsewhere too - it is only the Proms that get televised and I live too far from a city to attend concerts very much) and our National Youth Orchestra is better than ever. There has never been such a choice as far as recorded CM is concerned and young people are among the customers. Contemporary music gets bigger audiences in Britain than 30 years ago apparently and much of this audience is young. At the same time, within our general culture I think there is much less expectation that educated people will know the CM basics and our government schools have more or less given up teaching music at all (so it is becoming something that the children of the rich do). But I don't think our (British) experience overall is as is represented in the article.


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> Great article there. Lot's of thought went into it and there are many good ideas. But frankly, I think it's a lost cause. Not that I'm giving up. It's this culture we live in where genuine greatness is not appreciated. Not only in music, either. The movies, books, theatre have all been lost to popular culture.
> 
> Regarding music in schools: I live in an area where school music programs are rampant. Every high school within a 25 mile radius has a large string program with a full symphony. Bands abound - although marching band gets the focus nowadays. Kids participate in all kinds of competitions and festivals and are certainly exposed to classical music. Many take private lessons and the result is there are some supremely talented kids out there. I'm playing a concert this week with a 13-year old doing the Waxman Carmen Fantasie - and he plays it brilliantly. These school music programs have been strong for decades. Yet, where are they when they graduate? Our local community orchestras are starved for good players. Orchestras compete to get the string players. Wind are percussion players can be hard to find, too. There must be hundreds, maybe thousands, of well-trained music students graduating from high school every year, but something is wrong with music education. These students do not go on to play in local groups nor do they show up as audience members. So much for lifelong learning and the idea that if we introduce kids to classical in school that it will carry over into adulthood. Doesn't seem to happen, at least in my part of the world.
> 
> I can blame other things: the closing of record stores where I, as a kid, would spend hours browsing the racks reading the liner notes. Warner Bros. cartoons with their use of classical music was huge influence, as were the Universal Horror movies from the 30s and 40s with those great, late-romantic scores. Sadly though, the public today wants cheap, quick thrills. There are places where it thrives - London, Boston, Berlin, St. Petersburg, but in the US it seems like everyday another orchestra is facing bad news, like Baltimore. Morris Berman wrote a book about how American Culture is being snuffed out and the way forward is for those of us who love it to take on the monastic tradition: keep it alive in our own way and be the lit candle in a darkened world. Then, maybe, the world will wake up and we'll be there to light the pathway. Trouble is, so many of us are getting old and may not be around long enough to help.


These are all very good points mbhaub, and I agree with you 100%.

The fact of physical music stores closing is very important, and we should have tackled that in our article. Personally, I remember browsing those stores and discovering things that nowadays, in the virtual online world, it is much harder to do. I know thsi sounds absurd, but, in other words, here is what I think: in my opinion, nowadays we are "bombarded" by signals and stuff every second, making hard to filter things out, and focus more on specific things such as discovering a new way of interpretation, or a new performer, or, yet, a new music composer I never heard of. Yes, I can probably more easily hear about it, because of the amount of instant information at our disposal, but I will hardly find the time to listen to it extensively, and enjoy its creation to reach the real appreciation which will allow me to "move to the next level". That's, I think, is the most important process, missing today more than in the past. The lack of time and focus stops our research to the shallow level, which drops dead and prevents us to evolve. Maybe I am going too far?


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

MarkW said:


> The audience for CM may wax and wane, but it's been a niche market for years, and I don't see it dying. Kids, and even adults, gravitate to what speaks to them, and that changes over time. I exposed my kids to good stuff. Both learned rudimentary violin. One listens to Phish and rap through compromised hearing. The other is a set designer, likes opera, and hopes to design an operatic set or two in his career. One for two isn't bad these days.





Enthusiast said:


> I wonder. Some of the traditions of CM performance are a real turn off for many young people but I am not so convinced that the declining interest in CM is real or, if it is, can be located in the young. Certainly in Britain you still see a lot of young people attending concerts on the Proms festival (and probably elsewhere too - it is only the Proms that get televised and I live too far from a city to attend concerts very much) and our National Youth Orchestra is better than ever. There has never been such a choice as far as recorded CM is concerned and young people are among the customers. Contemporary music gets bigger audiences in Britain than 30 years ago apparently and much of this audience is young. At the same time, within our general culture I think there is much less expectation that educated people will know the CM basics and our government schools have more or less given up teaching music at all (so it is becoming something that the children of the rich do). But I don't think our (British) experience overall is as is represented in the article.


Well, I hear you guys, but I think the trend and the overall picture is clear. We surveyed around 400 people working in music education, from music teachers to people working and at the head of musical venues and other kinds of music-education organizations, as well as schools, and they expressed what they know about the subject, based on their experiences and knowledge. When you begin to survey hundreds of people dealing with several thousands of music students or children (if you sum their students up), you get a good idea of the overall picture and the actual "trend" in time. In other words, what the article is trying to highlight, is the overall picture, and the "trend" of the interest in classical music over time and around the world. Actually, if you search on Google Trends for just "music" (not "classical music") since 2004, you'll see that the interest of "music" itself has lowered, or at least so appears, which furthermore reinforces the idea that more than in a "classical music crisis", we maybe are living in a general "educational" crisis?

Personally, I agree with the idea we live in a "classical music crisis", the data we have collected shows that clearly, and personally, I have seen schools reducing their budget for music programs, and concert halls emptier and emptier every year. Classical music has always been an "elite thing", but I do remember more young people talking about it than nowadays. That's something cannot be overlooked in my opinion. Around Europe orchestras are closing every year, and I don't see many new ones to replace them... in other words, I have seen more closing than opening.

But, hey, that's just what we have tried to find out, and nothing is written in stone!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

You're right about being bombarded: there is so much music available now that it becomes paralyzing. Today we have a bazillion recordings of composers who 50 years you might be able to read about, but you'd never have a chance to hear. Now, there's so much that you can't possible really listen deeply, just a superficial listen.

I want to add another idea that has ruined audiences, and that's the universities. Back when I was in college in the early 70s, every student was required to take a certain number of classes outside of his major - the concept was to make you into a "whole" person, and a not a narrowminded specialist. One of the categories that was required was in the Humanities and there were maybe 6-8 choices, and among them was "Survey of Western Music". Yes, a dull title. Lo and behold, a number of years ago the school offered new courses in the Humanities block: "History of Rock 'n Roll", "The Music of ABBA", "Michael Jackson", "The Beatles", and most obnoxious "Rap Culture". How could a respectable university do this? I asked a music professor and he just sighed that kids today won't take the traditional courses, they had no interest in old, classical music. These music classes interested the students. So much for opening the mind to new experiences. Now I don't know if kids 40-50 years ago started listening to classical after those other classes, but I'm really sure the new classes do nothing to promote the finer things. Quite sad. Next thing you know, they'll have "The Music of Justin Bieber". Someone probably has it already.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I’m not sure there’s a “crisis,” or that anything is happening outside of what might reasonably be expected.

Regarding “the death of orchestras” it seems to me that the orchestra is an obsolete music delivery system. It exists primarily to make a very loud sound that can fill large venues and reach a big audience. And of course it is a very expensive approach to making music.

But in the age of amplification, any garage band with a couple of hundred watts and some good speakers can compete in volume (if not in repertoire or skill). Not only that, but music for such a band becomes a participatory experience rather than a passive one.

Of course, it’s not only the age of amplification but also of recording. Why do we need so many orchestras when most people would rather listen at home on their stereos? No hiring baby sitters, driving downtown, paying a mint for parking, and so forth. And you can pause the music to go fetch a beer. Of course many halls are emptying!

As for the loss of interest among the young for classical music, that seems quite natural. After all, it’s mostly really old, and it’s old people’s music. There’s nothing happening in that scene, nothing new and exciting being put out that young people would care about. Certainly not the best place to have a good time with friends.

“To everything there is a season…”


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

I am currently a sophomore in high school, which I guess is a “younger audiences.” I have opened up some of the minds of the people who think classical music is snobby aristocrat music, but I find interest waning quite quickly, and I mostly blame it on attention span. With 3-4 minute songs that you can “appreciate” on first listen, who the hell wants to listen an hour and a half of Bach Mass in B minor? In my high school, yes, classical music is a closed case, no chance. People are just too close minded. We’re currebtly playing Mozart in our orchestra and most of the players themselves don’t know it, which may seem weird. But, for instance, if I asked what piece are you playing? They won’t know- “a Song in I think g Major will be the response.” High school Musicians don’t even bother to know what piece they are given to play, they just blindly attempt to play the notes. 

My youth orchestra outside of school is quite different. There are so many people that love classical music and truly get joy out of playing and listening to it that I’m convinced there is still hope for our generation. A very small population of “young” people will even know anyone outside of Mozart and Beethoven (sadly Bach has apparently disappeared from classical music vocab, whenever used people pronounce it Batch). But of the small population that does appreciate this gem of a genre, they continue to expand their interests to other people and generally continue a less popular genre.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The most effective way to "solve the crisis" is to get kids playing musical instruments. It's the easiest way for them to cultivate an appreciation for music. If schools are cutting arts programs, parents have to speak up and say no. Young students not taking an interest in classical music is not a crisis. It's not realistic to expect kids to sit and listen to long, complicated classic works. But if parents and educators plant the seeds by offering hands on music programs and field trips to the symphony, those seeds may bear fruit in adulthood. It worked for me.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Fine article. 

I would like to see more orchestras, ensembles, groups, etc. go where the students already are at school. I think it’s the best solution to expose them to the greatness of the music. In other words, if students aren’t going to the concerts, bring the concerts to them. The question, of course, is who is willing to fund such a program? I think it should be part of the general educational funding, part of the whole package, and that suggests that the people who are paying for it think it’s worth doing.

I also think the format of the concert or recitals needs to change. Young people are far more visual than before because of their iPhones and other gadgets they are used to. Some of the concerts of today have screens with visuals behind the orchestras or special lighting effects. I think they’re needed and students would expect them. There needs to be more of this to hold the intention of the young. 

I am not worried about the survival of the music, because so much it has been recorded and available for free. I think far more young people have been exposed to the music than people realize. But something of the formal education related to it is lacking, and the approval of education is lacking, the approval that it’s a part of the arts from a high governmental national level is lacking. No one seems to talk about it. This part of society as a whole seems to be lacking. They are far more involved with other things and so the music doesn’t get promoted.

I’d like to see more time in school devoted to the music. It could be something as simple as listening to a classical music concert on the radio or sound system hooked up to a computer. It could be a minimal cost to expose students when they are young. That’s how I was first exposed to the music in school by ​listening to a weekly radio broadcast that my teacher would talk about and explain, including opera. I doubt if this is done anymore. Too bad, because it made an indelible impression on me. But my favorite idea is that the groups come to the schools and performed there, from the elementary school level to the high school level. The musicians need to work and the students could greatly benefit from the exposure. But as it stands now, I think there’s very little incentive for the young to go to concerts because dressing up and travel is involved and tickets are so expensive. Why are they so expensive? Because it would take private or public funding to subsidize the tickets. Ultimately, the problem is that the general public cannot see the benefits to the young by being exposed to the arts and cultivating them. The interest can last a lifetime and bring joy and fulfillment and comfort into the lives of the listeners. In any event, I thought the article was excellent.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I wonder where the "normal" that we are measuring the current decline against comes from? Is it a late 19th Century model or earlier or later? I don't know the answers to these questions but they seem important in differentiating between a "crisis" and a "change". This is something like the argument against human agency in bringing about catastrophic climate change! I am absolutely not a climate change denier but do still think the questions may be relevant to this discussion of a crisis in CM. 

Of course, when the climate Armageddon comes there will be no CM either.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

To continue my argument against the idea of there being a crisis .... my parents thought there was a crisis in the 1960s and were often bemoaning it. All I can see since then is improvement and fairly neutral change. The technical quality of orchestras and ensembles is much better, for example, and we have a hugely enriched choice of recordings (more repertoire, more performances of even quite obscure repertoire, more affordable). For as long as I have been conscious of CM we fans have seen ourselves in a shrinking minority and, well, we are a minority but are we shrinking? The thing I do regret - in Britain, anyway - is the shrinking of opportunities for children who are not in private education to get any exposure the music at all. This is one area that the Soviets did so much better than us and for as long as we had them to compete with there was something for us, too.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

My opinion is that, contrary to what we like to tell ourselves, _most_ of the appeal of classical music over the past 200+ years has been its elitism, and its decline has been the democratization -- or, synonymously, the popularization, which in the old days and in our own minds if we dare to be honest with ourselves was to say the vulgarization -- of culture. The working classes no longer defer to "their betters" with regard to entertainment.

That is likely to change in the not-too-distant future. The world is becoming re-stratified. The working classes are choosing to give up their political power to authoritarian demagogues. Soon the well-born will once again be dictating fashions in music and everything else to the rest of us.

All we have to do, then, is maintain the elitist connotations of classical music - and that should't be too hard, since the broader culture is doing it for us in spite of our nearsighted efforts to popularize it. If we can do that, then the increasingly unequal distribution of wealth will lead very naturally back to a world where classical music is well-funded by the competitive generosity of a tiny wealthy elite, and dutifully enjoyed by anyone aspiring to upward mobility.

This won't be exactly the same as it was in the seventeenth century, because we enjoy a material abundance unprecedented in human history. The snobs of tomorrow (like those of today) will not enjoy only classical music--they will demonstrate their rarified tastes by selectively enjoying "the best of everything": the best blues, the best jazz, the best "classic" rock, the best R&B, the best hip hop, the best tango nuevo, the best whatever, and of course the best classical music. (As always "best" in all these cases means "best as defined by people who have the persuasive power to impose their opinions." Which means the rich and powerful, and those employed to serve as their propagandists.)

Of course (pace Enthusiast #12) this is assuming that there is a tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. It may be that time no longer creeps in a petty pace, that we are all about to light our own way to fiery deaths, that humanity's hour upon the celestial stage is done.

If we manage not to annihilate ourselves, on the other hand, we may stumble into a future where, harnessing the free and effectively limitless energy of the sun, AI robots do everything for us. Then, if we manage to force our Earthly masters to share the wealth a bit, we'll all have loads of resources and free time to do whatever we want, and we can look forward to endless performances of long beloved classics, unjustly neglected masterpieces, newly rediscovered old works, obscurities, curiosities, and of course new works in a multitude of endlessly diversifying styles. Until, of course, the robots cut our cords. But heck, we all have to go sometime.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I too think the idea of "crisis" may be overdoing it, or perhaps oversimplifying the matter. I've said this before, mostly to deaf ears, but it's my opinion the more music you do -- play an instrument, sing, use a keyboard, learn music -- the more chance you have to graduate from popular to a more diverse form of music whether it be classical, jazz or something else. This includes participating in choir or band in school and/or singing or playing in church or some other organization.

I was raised in a household where my mother and sister played piano. My dad liked music, was a good singer, but never did it anywhere except occasionally when my mother played. They had a stereo and my dad played records. This was my introduction to music. I later sang in both church and school choir and briefly played an instrument in grade school.

I liked popular music, not classical music, as a boy. In college, about the time I turned 21, I found popular music too confining, too simple for me. I switched to classical music. I'd had some exposure in school singing choruses from Handel's Messiah. I did same in church and college.

I don't think we need more classical music listeners, I think we need more people that play or sing or practice music. This is easier for people that come from families where this was done but can be achieved by anyone. If you perform music you find out at some point in your life, probably fairly early, that popular forms of music are repetitive and simplistic. If you only listen I don't know if your brain sees it the same way.

So I don't necessarily think EXPOSURE EXPOSURE EXPOSURE, while helpful, is much of an answer. It may help. I think we need more musicians at any level.


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

Thank you guys, great ideas and thoughts. @science I was fascinated by your closing statements, a good sight into a positive future.

But back to today, I think @larold has well hit the right button by saying that the more you practice the more chances you have to evolve and appreciate different styles of music (by becoming a better listener and a better musician)


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

> Actually, if you search on Google Trends for just "music" (not "classical music") since 2004, you'll see that the interest of "music" itself has lowered, or at least so appears,


I think you have to be pretty careful when trying to interpret Google trends. To begin with the results are normalised in some way that is not clear. Beyond that you have to take into account that people could be using different search terms rather than losing interest in a topic. e.g. If people search less for "video" that could just reflect a decrease in usage of that word and that people no longer have VHS. In general you'd have to look at a lot of different trends and see how they change with respect to each other before jumping to conclusions.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

> I don't think we need more classical music listeners, I think we need more people that play or sing or practice music.


I think that's a significant point. Now that our entertainment is canned, there is less need to go through the considerable effort of mastering a musical instrument. However, if popularity in classical music is in decline then surely this is due to a number of factors that feed off each other. e.g. If it loses popularity and importance in our society then it's easier for governments to de-fund music lessons because fewer people will complain.

If fewer people are listening to classical music, I would suggest that the root causes are that it's a) no longer fashionable and b) the abundance of musical genres available today are drowning it out. People generally choose music that echoes the image they have of themselves and cements them into a social group. The record labels know this and continually push new material in an aggressively targeted manner. Classical music has a hard time competing in such an environment.

Anecdotally, I don't play an instrument and rediscovered classical music 3 years ago because of Spotify. When I first dabbled in it briefly a number of years ago I gave up because I wasn't sure what to buy after a couple of compilation albums. The other thing that drove me towards classical music was listening to acoustic singer-song writers, where I enjoyed the less processed sound.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_If fewer people are listening to classical music, I would suggest that the root causes are that it's a) no longer fashionable and b) the abundance of musical genres available today are drowning it out. _

I'm not sure fewer people are listening to classical music today (than in the past) … or that there are fewer people performing it … or that there are fewer fans. This was about how to engage "youth" with classical music which I took to mean school age kids. The easiest way to introduce them is for them to play or sing it.

In the adult world I don't think there's any question there are more people worldwide playing, singing and performing classical music than ever before. We've had a century and a half of conservatories and music schools in universities in our country; the level of most community orchestras is extraordinarily high and many of them have associated youth orchestras.

But the ironic "crisis" in classical music is twofold, I think: there isn't new music being written that captures people's imaginations on a worldwide scale and orchestras can't attract the profitable younger audience they once had. Many orchestras, even big ones like Philadelphia, are resorting to crossover programming and/or after performance stuff like wine and cheese tasting to attract younger audiences. I have no idea if any of that is working.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Make sponge Bob, Harry Potter and Tony Stark play some Liszt and in ten years there will be a fresh new market of young people wanting to listen to classical.

"Advertising is everything" they say...


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

fliege said:


> I think you have to be pretty careful when trying to interpret Google trends. To begin with the results are normalised in some way that is not clear. Beyond that you have to take into account that people could be using different search terms rather than losing interest in a topic. e.g. If people search less for "video" that could just reflect a decrease in usage of that word and that people no longer have VHS. In general you'd have to look at a lot of different trends and see how they change with respect to each other before jumping to conclusions.


Good point Fliege, actually we have taken into account that possibility, but with a two word keyword like "classical music" is hard to miss the general interest toward that topic. What we are looking for is a "general" interest towards classical music, not specifically the interest in "classical music concerts" or "recordings" or anything else more focused on sub-topics related to classical music. My point is: those sub-topic could change connotation and terminologies according to technologies, life-style changes, etc, but the "general" interest in classical music should be brought up anyway by the broader keyword we looked into.


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

Allerius said:


> Make sponge Bob, Harry Potter and Tony Stark play some Liszt and in ten years there will be a fresh new market of young people wanting to listen to classical.
> 
> "Advertising is everything" they say...


I am sure that'd work, that's exactly what I'd say by distilling our research in a single sentence!


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## Durendal (Oct 24, 2018)

Classical has had an image problem for a long time. To sum up, when my good buddy in high school asked me what music I listened to and I said classical, he gave me a disgusted look and said: "I thought only 80 year old farts listened to that boring crap."


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> Lo and behold, a number of years ago the school offered new courses in the Humanities block: "History of Rock 'n Roll", "The Music of ABBA", "Michael Jackson", "The Beatles", and most obnoxious "Rap Culture". How could a respectable university do this?


With this kind of rhetoric you lose not just the youth but 1) anyone familiar with the non-hierarchical and non-evaluative usage of the word "culture", 2) anyone made uncomfortable by the singling out of black culture as obnoxious 3) anyone who loves hip hop and the extraordinary soundscapes it's produced in the last 30 or so years...

If classical music cannot be separated from the perceived cultural superiority its consumption entails, then I can see why many have no time for it.


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

> With this kind of rhetoric you lose not just the youth but 1) anyone familiar with the non-hierarchical and non-evaluative usage of the word "culture",


I was intimidated by classical music before I started listening to it. After I started listening to it I realised that it just required attentive listening (now I love it). It also became apparent that, by and large, what we call "classical music" is a body of work written by a very small number of exceptional composers within the genre. This is what is generally programmed in most concerts, at any rate. So in a way it's not surprising that the genre is considered stagnant in terms of new great output.


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

Yes guys, what you have expressed above are exactly the problems that have been affecting classical music in the past several years, and what we have been trying to analyze in our article. Hard to solve indeed, and I am not even sure if there is a real solution to it.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

vsm said:


> "Youth and Classical Music"


keep youth away from it for they only spoil performance events.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2018)

Being a performer is not an essential prerequisite to being a consumer. This is a question often asked here, and a decent number of respondents have pointed out that they don't play an instrument or sing, but nevertheless have developed a love of CM.

While some CM is sufficiently accessible for it to be consumed by the general population (the bits used in adverts and films, for example), I think it highly unlikely that CM as a whole will ever be consumed by a substantial proportion of the public. It will remain a minority interest, whatever one tries to do to get "the youth" engaged.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Do we really want to interest young people in classical music? Forbid it to them!

"Sorry, this music is for mature, sexually powerful people. Not callow and uncertain youths like yourselves."

Try that, and see what happens!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Interesting "disclaimer".

I wonder if they are having the same problems in Tokyo. Too many Americans carry on as if we are the center of the classical music world.

It turns out that non-classical music is having it share of problems. Check out the following YouTube


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> It turns out that non-classical music is having it share of problems. Check out the following YouTube


Very interesting video... thanks for the link. I already knew that IMO the vast majority of today's pop music totally sucks. Now I have some understanding of why that is. btw, that narrator sure sounds like he's from Liverpool.


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## SomeAustrianBloke (Nov 1, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> While some CM is sufficiently accessible for it to be consumed by the general population (the bits used in adverts and films, for example), I think it highly unlikely that CM as a whole will ever be consumed by a substantial proportion of the public. It will remain a minority interest, whatever one tries to do to get "the youth" engaged.


Minority compared to what? Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift? For sure. But considering the sheer amount of classical releases, thousands of different recordings of the same composers works, it's a pretty big business. A single record may never top the charts, but put together all of them, and "minority interest" doesn't aplly that well anymore.

I'm new to this forum, as I am relatively new to classical music in general (I've started listening to classicall music last year). One big problem, which occured to me, seems to be the elitist behaviour of the community. Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down the whole community, but let me share som experiences here.

I'm an Austrian, so, as you would guess, there are some prety dedicated little record stores around here, where you may find the most wonderful recordings of any composer you may think of. I've stumbled over Joseph Haydn at the age of 30, which seems - compared to many other listeners - pretty young. So I did the logical thing, I'm in Austria, I want to listen to Joseph Haydn, I'll get myself some recordings. Amazon, Karajan, seemed to be an easy choice. So I've ordered myself some more records until I got to know some stores in my surroundings (I live in Graz, my girlfriend was born in Salzburg, not that bad if you get into this kind of music).

So me and my girl went to this pretty little store, owned by a seemingly nice guy, and started searching for interesting records, and asking questions. I got in there with 150€, as I really hoped to find some good records. There were several people in there, talking about music, and looking at me and my girl (she's 25 years old) like "What are they doing in here?". Eventually, I've started a conversation like "Hey, I'm a newbie, I've got myself this and that, and I'd like to know more and get me some good records". First, they've started to put me down for which records I've owned, like yeah, basically all I've bought was ****, because Trevor Pinnock is so much better for Haydn than Karajan, and this pianist is so much better than Andreas Staier, and how I have to listen to X and Y instead of A and B. Then my girlfriend asked the owner for a good recording of Vivaldi's 4 Seasons, which triggered a discussion about how the 4 Seasons is overrated compared to Vivaldis XYZ performed by "insert obscure violinist" on this or that label - basically putting us down for showing serious interest. Too bad my stupid girl likes the most popular Vivaldi pieces... I happily told those guys, including the owner, to go f*** themselves and left. 150€ still in my pocket. This is a true story. My experiences in Salzburg were pretty much the same, people look down on you (I'm dressed in jeans and hoodies most of the time), don't take your questions serious, pretty much don't want to engage with you, as you might not be good enough for their elitist circle.

Look around the internet, there are so many forums, where people basically debate one another for listening to the "wrong" Bach recording. But, I think they are right, how dare I get me the brandenburg concertos by Karajan, I should have known to prefer Harnoncourt or Gardiner, silly me.

Also, telling people that this music is "over their pop-music minds", or only for "intelligent people" and things like that... I mean, do you really think such behaviour could win you young listeners?

Showing someone music and telling them about the depth and the soloist or something like that isn't too bad, but maybe you'll win them over with enthusiasm and joy.

When I was 12 years old my uncle sat me down and put on some Tom Waits. He had a great stereo, he turned the volume up to a solid level, and started singing to "Singapore", stomping his feet to the rhythm, and smiling at me. That was fun, that was great, the next day my mother had to buy me a Tom Waits record.

Maybe, just maybe, we can win over the youth by turning up the volume, showing them some impressive works and letting them feel and see how much joy it brings to us.

Yeah, J. J. Fux will never be as important to a young girl as Justin Bieber or Beyonce, and my 16 year old cousin will probably always prefer Slipknot to Bach, and there's nothing wrong with that, but maybe this way they will stop thinking of old and boring men when hearing a piece of Mozart, and maybe they'll grow older and suddenly Haydn finds his place in their collection between Tom Waits and Cannibal Corpse, as he did in mine. But giving them the feeling of being stupid for listening to The Chainsmokers or Eminem will only push them farther away. And I really dislike pop music.

Just an idea.


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> It will remain a minority interest, whatever one tries to do to get "the youth" engaged.


I am afraid you are right on that. But let's have some hope!


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## vsm (Aug 26, 2017)

arpeggio said:


> Interesting "disclaimer".
> 
> I wonder if they are having the same problems in Tokyo. Too many Americans carry on as if we are the center of the classical music world.
> 
> It turns out that non-classical music is having it share of problems. Check out the following YouTube


Yes, very interesting indeed. Thank you for sharing it.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> With this kind of rhetoric you lose not just the youth but 1) anyone familiar with the non-hierarchical and non-evaluative usage of the word "culture", 2) anyone made uncomfortable by the singling out of black culture as obnoxious 3) anyone who loves hip hop and the extraordinary soundscapes it's produced in the last 30 or so years...
> 
> If classical music cannot be separated from the perceived cultural superiority its consumption entails, then I can see why many have no time for it.


Yes, I agree. And, no, I don't agree. The fact is that CM _is_ superior to other forms of music! That doesn't mean that the cultures that have grown up around other forms of music are inferior cultures. Indeed, it seems to me that they are pressingly relevant, authentic and important to us. But CM is greater music. Why turn our faces from that truth?

We don't have so much of a problem with great literature and drama and art being seen as somehow greater than the less great of the current work that we consume. That isn't seen as so elitist. Many of us sample it and few of us feel shut out of it. We might argue about what belongs and what doesn't belong in the "great" category but broadly we will agree. Some of us might say that the "serious stuff" is "not for me" but we can do so without feeling embarrassed or humiliated. Does anyone really contest that Shakespeare was a great playwright? Many of us might see his work as too serious and challenging to be entertaining but we do not feel less for doing so. And many of us might see a Shakespeare play once in a decade. Meanwhile, most people are happy consuming intelligent work that we all know will have been forgotten in 50 of so years.

But when it comes to CM we seem terrified of being seen as elitist. That to me suggests that we really do harbour elitist feelings. It is a fact that only a small proportion of a population are really wired to get a lot out of CM. That is not cultural superiority - it is just being wired to enjoy great music! And being so wired is not being part of an elite even though it is being part of of a minority. When I look at an audience in a CM concert I see people who are well dressed and well-heeled but many of them seem to know little of the music. They are socially superior but many of them do not seem culturally superior. Their consumption of CM is a assertion of their _social _superiority - and it is this that is damaging CM.

Subsidise it. Make it cheap. Make sure all kids have the chance to learn instruments. Many will get nothing out of that but some will and the less that is influenced by wealth and social standing the better. Fill the halls with people who love CM or want to sample it.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

> "But when it comes to CM we seem terrified of being seen as elitist. That to me suggests that we really do harbor elitist feelings. It is a fact that only a small proportion of a population are really wired to get a lot out of CM. That is not cultural superiority - it is just being wired to enjoy great music! And being so wired is not being part of an elite even though it is being part of of a minority. When I look at an audience in a CM concert I see people who are well dressed and well-heeled but many of them seem to know little of the music"


I' m not sure I see the problem because the situation has barely changed over the years other than probably to be more polarized.

Having thought for a while whether to contribute to this thread or not, I could not refrain from adding that I neither know nor care if I am branded an elitist for my conspicuous passion for classical music and opera. CM has been of very limited interest to the vast majority of the public for many decades.The influence of Americans in Britain during the 2nd world war was one of the most critical influencing factors, largely replacing the more European cultural model. Certainly, there was an entrenched form of "light" music but actually not too far removed from mainstream classics. Remember that radio and the movies were the predominant mediums of entertainment.

My formative years were the 1950's - predominately popular and jazz music, along with a fair proportion of classics and definitely pre-Beatles, Rock and Rap (though someone is going to argue the latter is merely a remake of Troubadour and similar forms).

The early 60's changed everything. "Youth" embraced the new popular genres to the detriment of the traditional ones, leaving the older members of the population mainly bemused and largely alienated. Even up to then, CM was virtually limited to all but a minority, but from then on the trend grew exponentially. Far from being new,being well-groomed in "decent" clothes and attending Opera and symphonic/chamber music performances became even more conspicuous markers of social, as well as cultural taste. This was not the birth of elitism but it surely helped it along,

I did not set out to be an elitist, but experience has made me that way because quite frankly, I actively dislike contemporary Western "popular' music in almost all of its forms. I do not care if I am regarded as old-fashioned, elitist or whatever. In this respect, I agree that some of us always were, or have become "wired" to CM and become increasingly less tolerant of many alternative forms of modern "culture"


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes, I agree. And, no, I don't agree. *My opinion *is that CM _is_ superior to other forms of music!


Fixed that for you.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Fixed that for you.


but he is right.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I am not sure it is worth arguing about but what is wrong with recognising that CM is superior as a fact. That discussion goes nowhere and is worth nothing of importance. My main points are that 

- Other forms of music can still be worth studying.
- The cultural realities that give rise to many contemporary forms of music should be recognised as important areas for study.
- CM will only ever really work for a subset of any population - probably around 10% - but that we should reclaim it from the wealthy. This can be done through subsidies and ensuring that state education teaches musical skills. The view that CM is an elite occupation is leading to a situation whereby only elites can afford it!


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