# Classical music VS European Folk music



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

How are they different? How are they similar?
As far as I know, they both existed for a long time, till popular music was invented in modern times; here is one piece I think can "pass" as both:


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

For the piano:


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Greensleeves is based on the romanesca which is a variant of the passamezzo antico.

Here's a romanesco by Ortiz






And here's Ortiz with a Folia, Romanesca, Passamezzo and a Ruggiero


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Basically, most composers have nicked folk tunes. Charpentier's Messe de Minuit pour noel is full of old French carol tunes.

In the late 18th Century there was a big vogue for Scotch tunes and both Haydn and Beethoven wrote ecossaises.

In the late 19th and early 20th century many composers were studying folk tunes to invigorate their own music - Greig, Vaughan Williams, Bartok, Holst.

Greig's Halling






and a dance version






If the fiddle sounds odd, it's because it's a hardanger.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev often worked folk tunes into their works, or themes that were composed to sound like folk tunes. The Prokofiev first three piano concertos teem with real or contrived folk tunes.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

A wise conductor once explained it to me this way: the further "art music" strays from folk music, the less popular, likeable and listenable it becomes. Tchaikovsky used actual folk songs in some of his music, Dvorak didn't but he emulated the style quite convincingly and it's this quality that makes their symphonies so popular. Kalinnikov and Goldmark knew the formula, although their music is scandalously ignored. Stravinsky's early work, Firebird in particular, used folk elements and it remains one of his most popular works. Along comes Schoenberg and his followers who didn't make use of any folk elements and what do they have to show for it? A large library of music that is rarely played nowadays. It's a problem for modern composers for sure: if they stoop down and use folk music elements, they're deemed square, old-fashioned, unoriginal.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Even Ligeti got an early start with folk music related works...


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

A lot of folk music was traditionally sung a capella, so a folk tune is not automatically Classical music, but has to be arranged with a bit more complexity to be Classical. My favourite folk tune is American:


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Thank you people! Any more examples? Folk can also pair with popular music right? I mean, things like Folk Rock/Metal...


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Liszt has gypsy-styled tunes in Hungarian Rhapsodies, 
Chopin, last movements of his piano concertos, Polonaises, Mazurkas, early works for piano and orchestra such as Krakowiak Op.14, Fantasia on Polish Airs Op.13.
Also there are Norwegian folk music elements in Grieg Lyrical Pieces, piano concerto in A minor,





4:53 _"Adding even further to the comedy, the viola plays a syncopated open fifths drone, a technique often used by Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven in humorous moments to simulate rustic folk music."_


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Thank you people! Any more examples? Folk can also pair with popular music right? I mean, things like Folk Rock/Metal...


Definitely.

Either Horselips






or the Pogues






or Fairport Convention


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Musical nationalism is a fascinating subject worthy of a dedicated thread - and the best kind of dedicated thread - the kind that starts out with peace, love, and mutual understanding, quickly spirals out of control replete with heated denunciations, accusations, threats, tears, teeth being ground in rage and frustration so loudly that you can't hear yourself think, and ad hominems which oddly enough become even more entertaining then the thread itself and invariably ends with "This thread has been closed."

As independence movements arose throughout the world in the 19th century there was a corresponding emergence of composers who sought to create a unique identity - a sense of "we who are not them and they who are not us" - a connection to a particular country, region, or ethnicity - set in contrast from the predominant European tradition (Italian, French, German).

As mentioned previously by other members at times actual folk songs were incorporated into their compositions but far more prevalent is an adaptation/transformation of melodies and rhythms which were then incorporated within the work.

Folk music was/is quite well suited to this creation of a unique identity as the tunes tell the tales that explain who and what we are and where we came from and what have we been doing ever since and how did we get from there to here and yeah sure this place may be "Má vlast" but I'd rather be in America thank you very much...

Examples in addition to those mentioned in previous posts -

Poland - Moniuszko and Wieniawski

Russia - Glinka, Balakirev, Cui, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and Borodin

Czech Republic - Smetana, Dvořák, Janáček, and Martinů

Finland - Sibelius

Denmark - Gade and Nielsen

Romania - Enescu

Hungary - Bartók and Kodaly

Spain - Albeniz, Falla, Granados, Rodrigo, and Turina

UK - Parry, Elgar, Mackenzie, and Vaughan Williams

The corresponding rise of German nationalism - Schubert, von Weber, and of course, Wagner is where the proposed dedicated thread would jump the tracks and burst into flames as the creation of a unique identity takes a right turn instead of a left and before you knew it suddenly that sense of "we who are not them and they who are not us" became "Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer" and the nationalist movements within Europe decided that it might be best to keep a lower profile for a while or better yet skedaddle to any place that is not in fact "Europe" ... I'll stop here because I don't want to ruin the ending for those of you who didn't read the book or watch the movie...


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Does that mean in some cases, Greig and co were often arrangers rather than composers?


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Taggart said:


> In the late 18th Century there was a big vogue for _*Scottish*_ tunes and both Haydn and Beethoven wrote ecossaises.


Haydn - Hob. XXXI (Scottish: 1-273, Welsh: 1 - 61) are arrangements of folk songs...

In addition to -
WoO 83: Six Écossaises for piano in E♭ major", WoO 86: Écossaise for piano in E♭ major, "WoO 22: Écossaise for Military Band", and WoO 23: Écossaise for Military Band (only a piano arrangement by is extant)​​​
Beethoven also wrote the tunes for the following - 
 *
Folksong arrangements for one or more voices, with piano trio accompaniment*​

Opus 108: Twenty-five Scottish Songs​
WoO 152: Twenty-five Irish folksongs
WoO 153: Twenty Irish folksongs
WoO 154: Twelve Irish folksongs
WoO 155: Twenty-six Welsh folksongs
WoO 156: Twelve Scottish folksongs
WoO 157: Twelve folksongs of various nationalities
WoO 158a: Twenty-three continental folksongs
WoO 158b: Seven British folksongs
WoO 158c: Six assorted folksongs
WoO 158d: "Air Français"

I was planning on creating a dedicated thread about these works by Beethoven to get a jump start on the 250th anniversary but didn't know whether to place them in "Classical Music" or "Non-Classical Music" but oddly enough when I read what I've just written it sounds more like a threat than a promise even though the tunes are really quite lovely...







​


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It is interesting how no French or Italian composer comes to mind (although the Italians didn't have much symphonic tradition), but all the other countries around the core did.

Add to the list:
Portugal - Joly Braga Santos

And let's not forget the New World
Mexico - Chavez
Brazil - Villa Lobos


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Becca said:


> It is interesting how no French or Italian composer comes to mind...


Joseph Canteloube.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

oops......................


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Becca said:


> It is interesting how no ... Italian composer comes to mind


Luciano Berio


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Bartok said the only difference between composers like him and folk musicians is a conservatory education.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

Becca said:


> It is interesting how no French or Italian composer comes to mind ...


D'Indy?

And add Moncayo and Marquez to Latin American.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Becca said:


> It is interesting how no French or Italian composer comes to mind (although the Italians didn't have much symphonic tradition), but all the other countries around the core did.





Art Rock said:


> Joseph Canteloube.


Canteloube is a superb example of a French nationalist although one whose compositional time frame runs from early to mid- 20th century.

What would account for the lack of a French or Italian equivalent to mid- to late 19th century German nationalism?

Certainly not "nationalist spirit" - France had been bitterly seething with nationalist resentment over the loss of Alsace-Lorraine in 1871 as a result of the Franco-Prussian war and it festered until it was rather grudgingly returned in 1918.

French composers active during this timeframe include Bizet, Debussy, Faure, Gounod, Offenbach, Ravel, Saint-Saëns, and Satie - nary a "nationalist" amongst them.

Italy also possessed a significant nationalist fervour after the unification was complete in 1870.

Italian composers active during this timeframe include Leoncavallo, Mascagni, Puccini, and Verdi - and again nary a "nationalist" amongst them.

Could it be that the reason why no mid to late 19th century French or Italian nationalists came to Becca was because there really weren't any?

How significant was the position held within their respective societies in regards to traditional French or Italian folk tunes?

Someone somewhere surely has an answer to these questions...


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Mollie John said:


> Could it be that the reason why no mid to late 19th century ... Italian nationalists came to Becca was because there really weren't any?
> 
> How significant was the position held within their respective societies in regards to traditional ... Italian folk tunes?
> 
> Someone somewhere surely has an answer to these questions...


A reason for lacking nationalist 19th century Italian composers could be that Italy was busy becoming 'one country' and was jumping from one revolution into the other. Italy was a collection of small city states and in quite some Italian eyes still is.

So, there was not a lot of unity to be celebrated in music.

Local folk music however is easily to be found in Italy, like the famous Napolitan singing style. But if even in pizza's there are many differences between the Roman and Napolitan style, you will also in music more likely encounter rivalry than unity.

This of course is just an assumption, I am no historian, just an European. So any Italian TC members out there who can kick around my assumptions?


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Becca said:


> It is interesting how no French or Italian composer comes to mind


I've already mentioned Charperntier. We might also mention Sébastien de Brossard or Guillaume Minoret.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Taggart said:


> I've already mentioned Charperntier. We might also mention Sébastien de Brossard or Guillaume Minoret.


While I did not say it directly, that part of the discussion was about 19th & 20th century composers.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I think that Paris, and by extension France, regarded itself as the center of the music and art world, drawing to itself anyone and everyone who aspired to leadership--if you could make it there, you could make it anywhere (is there a song here somewhere?). And so there was little interest or will or thought given to the idea of bringing some sort of French nationalism into their music remotely like the sort extant in Russia, Spain, Bohemia, etc.


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