# Classical Era Symphonies Discussion Thread



## clavichorder

Lets see if I can stir up a good thread that focuses on my favorite genre in classical music, the symphony in the classical era. I'll listen to Michael Haydn's 26th symphony as I write this. 

So, lets approach this topic from several angles. 

Perhaps the main theme could be your impression of the latest in your classical era symphonic listening.

And more in depth; the whole repertoire and all its neglected obscurities: even Haydn and Mozart have neglected sonata form symphonic works, I can't even claim to be familiar with all the Mozart symphonies or Haydn symphonies. There are many other notable composers; those in the late Viennese style that I've familiarized myself with include Carl Stamitz, JCF Bach, Luigi Boccherini(in his symphonies he resemble a Viennese composer), Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, Michael Haydn,. There are some others that fall outside this style a bit but are also from that later period, Paul Wranitzky, Joseph Martin Kraus, Henri Jospeh Rigel, Carlos Baguer(unknown Spanish Haydn disciple), Muzio Clementi. There are earlier gallant composers(admit I know less of this category) like JC Bach and Johann Schobert, or Gosseck. And then there's the Manheim school, Johann Stamitz, Franz Xavier Richter are the ones I know. And some sturm and drang/Baroque transition composers like the two elder sons of J.S. Bach. Then there are the classical romantic transition composers, I know less of these. I want to undertake the massive task of comparing bodies of works between these composers. Anyone want to jump on board?

If no one is fully with me on this task, we can describe individual symphonies, our impressions of them, either in detail or not. 

Or we can talk about how to better encourage others of the merits of the classical style. Some disdain it for its limited harmonic language, not considering the value of the connectedness of themes and phases as compensation. I say start with Haydn and Mozart and some other great unknowns like Clementi and Joseph Martin Krauss and CPE Bach. Your mind will open up to the skill and enjoyability of these composers if you give them time and then you realize how gratifying it is to get to know so many from this repertoire. 

____________________________________________________________________

I've been listening to middle Haydn symphonies of late. Each of them has their own merits and its hard to recommend one above the other for me now. I used to without question say 45 or 51 were the best but now I'm not sure how much better they are than the others. I suppose I would add 53(a very advanced work of the time, slow intro and great connectedness) 52(for the sake of it being in c minor and being very good), 48 for its horns and speed and 47 for a certain crunchiness, and there's something wonderful about the winds in 42 and its irregular pacing in the slow movement. Now its becoming hard to recommend one over the other without writing an essay on each. Maybe that needs to be done. 

I always recommend the symphonies of CPE Bach. His first set from the 1750s, the Berlin, are solid. But he's more inspired in his later string symphonies and especially and I forget the name of the set after that but they are the most superb. His style is really unlike anyone else.

Hopefully that's a start to something.


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## tdc

Great thread idea. I love your enthusiasm about classical era composers, I unfortunately have not explored the classical symphony in too much detail outside of Mozart yet. Haydn and CPE Bach will be the next composers I will look into more thoroughly from that era for sure. However I'd be curious as to your opinion of the composer _Monn_, he was apparently one of the guys that - along with CPE Bach - really paved the way for the classical symphony. He is another composer I personally want to explore, I really love his Cello Concerto and I found this clip on youtube of one of his symphonies which also sounds quite good to my ears:


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## mmsbls

@clavichorder: I love classical era symphonies, but I'm sure I have much to learn. I've explored many of the composers you mentioned in the OP. One I would add, and one of my favorites, is Christian Cannabich. I'm glad you started the thread.


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## Ukko

Add Cherubini. I listened to his Symphony in D yesterday, after hearing Haydn's 90 and 91. It's less frenetic than Haydn's, less stuffed full of ideas than, say, Mozart's No. 41. It seems well designed, has a feel of depth and moderate darkness. Maybe the qualities that Beethoven liked about it.


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## Ukko

tdc said:


> Great thread idea. I love your enthusiasm about classical era composers, I unfortunately have not explored the classical symphony in too much detail outside of Mozart yet. Haydn and CPE Bach will be the next composers I will look into more thoroughly from that era for sure. However I'd be curious as to your opinion of the composer _Monn_, he was apparently one of the guys that - along with CPE Bach - really paved the way for the classical symphony. He is another composer I personally want to explore, I really love his Cello Concerto and I found this clip on youtube of one of his symphonies which also sounds quite good to my ears:


It does sound like a Mannheim work. When I hear that work, or a CPE Bach symphony, I am reminded of how skillful that orchestra must have been. I suspect many of the court orchestras around at the time would get pretty ragged playing that music. Maybe some of the distinguishing orchestrations relied on the orchestra's skill, which fed back to what the composers wrote...? Speaking of sound, that in the youtube clip is pretty bad.


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## mmsbls

tdc said:


> However I'd be curious as to your opinion of the composer _Monn_, he was apparently one of the guys that - along with CPE Bach - really paved the way for the classical symphony. He is another composer I personally want to explore, I really love his Cello Concerto and I found this clip on youtube of one of his symphonies which also sounds quite good to my ears:


I had never heard of Monn. I just listened to his Cello Concerto and his G major symphony. Both were beautiful. Unfortunately, those two pieces are the only works listed on the Naxos Music Library. There are only a few other movements on youtube. I see Amazon has one CD of 6 symphonies.










Anyone know much about this recording or others?


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## Weston

I used to hate the classical era, blaming it for the demise of baroque counterpoint, but as it turns out I only dislike some of the ubiquitous gestures of classical - especially appoggiatura and -- I've forgotten the word -- that bass that goes CGEG-CGEG over and over? Donatti bass? Dizzi-dulli bass? I know I'll kick myself when I remember it. Anyway, I hate that bass.

But I have since started enjoying the world of that music with composer other than Mozart, who were not quite so heavy with those gestures, and even with later Mozart which also toned down the use of them.

*Joseph Martin Kraus* is among my favorite recent discoveries. His work seems to encompass everything from late baroque through almost romantic. His Symphony in C minor VB 142 is a good example. Truly epic.

I'll come up with more perhaps a bit later.


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## jalex

Weston said:


> that bass that goes CGEG-CGEG over and over? Donatti bass? Dizzi-dulli bass? I know I'll kick myself when I remember it. Anyway, I hate that bass.


Alberti bass. Standard fallback for GCSE compositions, no imagination required


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## clavichorder

@ Weston 
I know and love that symphony by Joseph Martin Kraus. This is the CD I have







On that CD, I really like his symphony in D major, this isn't that recording, but here it is on youtube



 I would certainly rank Krauss very high. He is more full of counterpoint and is darker on the sturm and drang than Haydn.


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## clavichorder

@ tdc

I had not heard of Monn. He sounds pre classical in a north german sort of way, but maybe that's just the harshness of the period instruments and the sound quality of the recording. So I'm feeling a bit of a resemblance to CPE Bach. The cello concerto is enticing, I'll post it here




One name I forgot to mention was *Sammartini*. He writes things called symphonies that are often taken from Cantatas, so he may be like an Italian Boyce, not really writing in the classical style, but he sounds a bit classical to me. I haven't heard this work before, I know a symphony in g minor with a first movement taken and adapted from a cantata, but this is kind of a quirky piece pretty choppy and very thin in parts.


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## clavichorder

I recommend *Johann Stamitz* for managing to construct such attractive and tight pieces from such basic material. I think he's amazing, light as a feather as someone said on here a while back in his guestbook section. I found this work instantly likable.


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## clavichorder

A resource I've used for learning about classical era repertoire is Gurn's Classical Corner on GMG forums. http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.0.html?PHPSESSID=0a156dd73ceddf9928e2eb220c725e19


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## clavichorder

More Johann Stamitz


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## mmsbls

The A major symphony is one of favorite Stamitz symphonies. I have the following CD. The G major is also on thsi CD.


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## Air

I don't think anyone has mentioned Carl Friedrich Abel yet, whose symphonies were sometimes misattributed to Mozart and even studied by the maestro as a boy. And with his joyful and elegant lines and high sense of class, one can easily see why...


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## hawk

How in the world can I continue to claim that there is no music comprable to that from the baroque?! The pieces in this thread, particularly the Monn Cello concerto, Stamitz~symphony in G and the Abel pieces (I have enjoyed CF Abel for a while now) are wonderful


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## clavichorder

@Hawk

Its pretty darn close to Baroque, Stamitz, Monn, and Abel are "preclassical"/rococo/galante. I can't technically describe it; lacking contrapuntal complexity and having certain classical ends of phrases, but there is a pretty fluid transition between Baroque and Classical, as evidenced in the later works of Handel, Telemann, and Boyce and transition composers like WF Bach, and Franz Xavier Richter of the Mannheim school. Glad you like these pieces!


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## mmsbls

Here's a late symphony of Christian Cannabich. Cannabich was Director of the Mannheim Orchestra, considered the best in Europe at the time. The Wikipedia entry counts 75 symphonies attributed to Cannabich.


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## nuwanda

Hello everybody, 

I writte master work about silience in different music styles. I know that classicism is first period when composers use crescendo and decrescendo and I am intersting for examples from this period where we can here and see in notes gradually conquesting of sound by crescendo and moving from f sound to music silence by decresceno. It would be great if composers use pause in this procedure. I know, maybe this see probably nonsensicaly but its important for me.Any advice for examples of music in classicims for this occasion would be great for me. Thank you


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## jurianbai

here suggestion from someone rarely listen to symphonies but enthusiast of the era. 

I am surprised one of my favorite composer of the era, Johann Nepomuk Hummel found no symphony on his account (t.b.c please)... the other two, Luigi Boccherini, got 30 symphonies, and Ignaz Pleyel 41. 

More serious is Louis Spohr's (if he still counted in the era), nine symphonies, with no.10 withdrawn...


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## clavichorder

I had a name on the tip of my tongue for a while, Franz Krommer, pretty powerful symphony here


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## clavichorder

See, I often wonder, why am I so fixated on Haydn? Sure he's one of the best, but if one looks deeper for works of a quality comparable to Haydn's average symphony, which is pretty good in my book, you can find A LOT of music each with quirky styles. So many box sets await my purchase...


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## Weston

Papa Mozart wasn't exactly a slouch either. He still retains some of that rococo sound, but often uses sound effects in the manner of Rameau. I enjoy his work sometimes more than his son's, at least Wolfgang's early work.


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## clavichorder

Weston said:


> Papa Mozart wasn't exactly a slouch either. He still retains some of that rococo sound, but often uses sound effects in the manner of Rameau. I enjoy his work sometimes more than his son's, at least Wolfgang's early work.


That's a pretty imaginative work for the time, I love his toy symphony as well. I'd never heard this one.

Speaking of Mozart, my favorites aside from 25, 35, 40, and 41, have to be these
39, because its so *Raunchy* with that wretchedly beautiful dissonant chord in the intro





29 is incredible all around 





27 is underrated, especially the contrapuntal finale





And 33 in b flat





My survey is by no means complete.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

jurianbai said:


> More serious is Louis Spohr's (if he still counted in the era), nine symphonies, with no.10 withdrawn...


Sorry, Spohr was Romantic period.

Many good names already suggested. I would like to add *Johann Michael Haydn* (1737-1806), younger brother of the great Joseph Haydn. Mozart borrowed a symphony of his and has since been misattributed to Mozart's #37 (with only the slow-introduction written by Mozart). Michael Haydn wrote 41 numbered symphonies (a coincidence with Mozart's traditional numbering in old editions).


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## clavichorder

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Sorry, Spohr was Romantic period.
> 
> Many good names already suggested. I would like to add *Johann Michael Haydn* (1737-1806), younger brother of the great Joseph Haydn. Mozart borrowed a symphony of his and has since been misattributed to Mozart's #37 (with only the slow-introduction written by Mozart). Michael Haydn wrote 41 numbered symphonies (a coincidence with Mozart's traditional numbering in old editions).







Survey is not complete of Michael Haydn either, but this is my favorite symphony so far, I love the finale.


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## clavichorder

Best CPE Bach symphony, likely, although its a close call, is this


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## jalex

clavichorder said:


> Best CPE Bach symphony, likely, although its a close call, is this


For his brother JC I think that award must go to:


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## clavichorder

My favorite symphonic JC Bach so far is the finale I've heard to this symphony


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## clavichorder

My favorite of WF Bach is this symphony, and what a lively and fun performance this is!






The oboe part I had playing in my head as I was dreaming and the portrait of WF Bach handed me a fish! I will forever know this as the fish symphony, I have a special soft spot for it.


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## clavichorder

And another quirky one by WF


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## Weston

Speaking of Mozart's No. 39, that is my favorite Mozart symphony, especially for the 3rd movement.

I like these W F Bach pieces. To me they sound a lot like CPE Bach, except they go in unpredictable directions. Very nice. I need to look into getting a few in my collection.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

*Étienne Nicholas Méhul* (1763-1817), wrote four complete late classical/early Romantic style symphonies, and two incomplete symphonies. I have only the first two complete symphonies on recording. These works show heavy Beethoven influences.


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## clavichorder

Another good name that I haven't dug into very much.


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## clavichorder

Weston said:


> Speaking of Mozart's No. 39, that is my favorite Mozart symphony, especially for the 3rd movement.
> 
> I like these W F Bach pieces. To me they sound a lot like CPE Bach, except they go in unpredictable directions. Very nice. I need to look into getting a few in my collection.


These are the only things close to conventional symphonies WF Bach wrote. He wrote two other pieces called symphonies, but they have an odd adagio and fugue format.


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## clavichorder

JCF Bach too wrote symphonies. Most are lost but I find them quite attractive, they have a certain blending of CPE Bach's style and the Viennese style




For that symphony, it has one of the best classical era minuets I can think of, so I recommend the whole thing.


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## clavichorder

How have the classical symphonies been faring on TC lately? What have you been listening to?


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## doctorGwiz

Adding Ferdinand Ries as a transitional figure between classical and romantic, I really enjoy his 2nd symphony:




The 4th movement is very exciting!

Also, a favorite is his 6th:


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## humanbean

I'll revive this thread with a recent great find: The "conversation symphony" by English composer John Marsh. The bit from 1:03 to 1:13 is quite lovely:






Also, a symphony by the now extremely under-appreciated composer and student of Haydn, Ignace Joseph Pleyel. This entire symphony is very enjoyable, especially the first two movements. I've had it playing nearly nonstop the past month.






I've recently become a huge fan of Mr. Pleyel's compositions, especially his string quartets. I really can't understand why there are so few recordings available, considering his rather large output.


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## suffolkcoastal

A couple more composers to suggest are Leopold Kozeluch, I am a great admirer of his symphonies, especially the G minor and Weyse a danish composer whose symphonies are available on the Da Capo label. Also the symphonies of Anton Reicha, especially the E flat and Vranicky whose symphonies are very individual.


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## neoshredder

Do you consider William Boyce classical era? I've heard some say that his symphonies are basically Baroque Overtures.


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## humanbean

suffolkcoastal said:


> A couple more composers to suggest are Leopold Kozeluch, I am a great admirer of his symphonies, especially the G minor and Weyse a danish composer whose symphonies are available on the Da Capo label. Also the symphonies of Anton Reicha, especially the E flat and Vranicky whose symphonies are very individual.


Ah yes, I've heard of CFE Weyse. His 5th symphony is great, especially the 3rd movement. I'll have to look into the other composers you mentioned.

Another great composer I've been listening to lately is Johann Baptist Vanhal. Nice brass parts in this one:


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## clavichorder

Kozeluch is definitely one of the neglected greats of the classical era. His music has such grace to it, on par with some Mozart and more substantial than J.C. Bach.


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## neoshredder

Other than CPE Bach, who do you consider the best with rococo symphonies? I know early Mozart used some of these. Were the early Mozart rococo symphonies second best?


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## clavichorder

neoshredder said:


> Other than CPE Bach, who do you consider the best with rococo symphonies? I know early Mozart used some of these. Were the early Mozart rococo symphonies second best?


Its a hard category to define. I personally really like the Manheim school lightness of Johann Stamitz and the work of Sammartini. Franz Xaver Richter is very baroque informed early classicism.

And of course, there is the great WF Bach, who wrote 2 things that are close to symphonies as it gets with him, and one Adagio and Fugue in D minor that is a masterpiece.


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## neoshredder

How about the best 'Sturm und Drang' symphonies. Similar to Haydn and CPE Bach.


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## neoshredder

Still my favorite type of Symphonies.


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## jani

Mozart's 25th


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## BaronAlstromer

My favourite cd right now is Musik från frihetstiden (Music from the age of liberty) which contains 9 symphonies from 5 swedish composers in the mid 18th century.
Among them are 4 of the 6 symphonies, opus 1 by Johan Agrell.
There is also one from the amateur composer Arvid Niclas von Höpken.


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## clavichorder

tdc said:


>


I am digging the franticness in the development section of the 1st mvt.


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## BaronAlstromer

From the cd I mentioned above:


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## KenOC

Pavel Vranický, aka Paul Wranitzky: Symphony in C minor Op. 31, "Grand Characteristic Symphony for the Peace with the French Republic." Very dramatic! He did like long titles though.

Beethoven liked him as a conductor.


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## clavichorder

@BaronAlstromer, the 1st one is very nice, more early in style. The next one is very early Haydn or Dittersdorf sounding, its actually very nice now that I hear some of the later sections. Gentle sounding but I also like the sort of sequences that almost sound more late classicist in parts.

I think this music is very baroque infused! I like it, very blurring of lines.

Have you heard Johann Melchoir Molter's symphonies?


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## clavichorder

@KenOC, the Wranitzky I'm listening to. Its also very interesting, lots of light business and intriguing developments. It manages a more grand sound in parts, as one would hope based on the title. I like it. The section with the prominent winds is an enjoyable contrast.


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## KenOC

clavichorder said:


> @KenOC, the Wranitzky I'm listening to. Its also very interesting, lots of light business and intriguing developments. It manages a more grand sound in parts, as one would hope based on the title. I like it.


Wait for the cannons at the end. Tchaikovsky's got nothing on this guy!


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## BaronAlstromer

clavichorder said:


> @BaronAlstromer, the 1st one is very nice, more early in style. The next one is very early Haydn or Dittersdorf sounding, its actually very nice now that I hear some of the later sections. Gentle sounding but I also like the sort of sequences that almost sound more late classicist in parts.
> 
> I think this music is very baroque infused! I like it, very blurring of lines.
> 
> Have you heard Johann Melchoir Molter's symphonies?


I haven´t heard much of Molter yet, as I am very new to classical music.
The Agrell symphonies are believed to be composed as early as the 1730s when he worked at the court in Hesse-Kassel.


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## Il Seraglio

Dittersdorf is a composer I never quite got a feel for until hearing this. Really enjoyable, heroic symphony (with a fittingly grand title) and rich with counterpoint. Seems to anticipate Méhul and Beethoven in a lot of ways.


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## Novelette

Wagenseil's symphonies have been of particular interest to me lately. Early classical works with a distinctly Baroque flavor--while I realize that that is not so unique, I like Wagenseil's peculiar style.


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## clavichorder

I like that symphony quite a bit, thanks for posting it. Baroque and classical era styles when merged, can produce very excellent results and it is easy to think that the Bach sons had the monopoly on that. It seems like there were many ways to bridge the two eras. Franz Xaver Richter is another who did this. Its so hard to characterize these composers too, since they just seemed to do a variety of things. I assume there are stylistic patterns that happen. 

Great baroque style dissonance in that piece, much perfectly functional 'imperfection' happening in a very wholesome way.

I encountered Wagenseil's name a while ago and was very impressed with this piece of his that was called a sonata but was played with a 'Sackbut' quartet(funny early trombone thing).


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## DrKilroy

I forgot how great Mozart's Haffner Symphony is! I remember listening to it as a little kid. 

Best regards, Dr


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## TrevBus

Outside of Mozart, Bach and Papa Hayden, I really don't have a lot in those 2 eras(Baroque and Classical, esp. Baroque)but there are some I enjoy.
Antonio Rosetti, esp. Sinfonia in B. 
Adolf Fredrik Linblad. Swedish Composer, who's 2 symphonies were not all that popular in his native country but aboard, very much so. Sym. #1 in C major was championed by Mendelsohn.
Muzio Clementi. His 4 symphonies has been mentioned as some of the finest(esp. #4 D major)of the early classical period.
There is some debate as to which period Berlioz belongs in. I say in the mid to late Classical but there is good argument that says Romantic. Doen't really matter, his music was very influential, even to this day.


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## Mahlerian

TrevBus said:


> There is some debate as to which period Berlioz belongs in. I say in the mid to late Classical but there is good argument that says Romantic. Doen't really matter, his music was very influential, even to this day.


I've never heard him called anything but a Romantic, although there are definitely some Classical formal elements in his style.


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## TrevBus

Mahlerian said:


> I've never heard him called anything but a Romantic, although there are definitely some Classical formal elements in his style.


Same here, Mahkerian. For years, I thought of him as a Romantic but after listning to him a great deal lately, I am beginning to wonder. Those elements you speak of, could be what caught my attention as to what period he belongs in. As I said earlier, to this day he is such a strong influence, it doesn,t really matter, except maybe to teachers and scholars. I might be just his time period that has me questioning; 1803-1869. However, when I hear 'Harold en Italie' 'Le Carnaval Romain' and of course, 'Symhonie Fantastique'(God I love that piece), I say Romantic. Then i hear 'Le Corsaire overture', Symphonie funebre et triomphale' and 'Benvenuto Cellini overture' and I wonder. Oh, well, am no expert or scholar, so probably wrong. Fun to speculate though. Let's just say that maybe he fits into both.


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## BaronAlstromer

I have recently purchased symphonies nos. 6, 10 and 20 by Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach performed by the Leipziger Kammerorchester and a 10 cd box containing Mozart´s complete symphonies performed by Orchestra Filarmonica Italiana.
There are even a few of the spurious ones.


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