# Parsifal and Tristan & Isolde with as little vibrato as you can find?



## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I was visiting the local library for some contemporary music as well as jazz, and noticed Gergiev's Parsifal there. Great sound but too much vibrato for my taste. I tried to imagine what some passages would've sounded like if sung more like some Renaissance specialists do, and it pleased me so much I became angry at the current norm in Romantic opera singing.

Can anyone point me to recordings with as little vibrato as you can find? I'm interested in Parsifal and Tristan & Isolde mainly.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Until there are Historically Informed Performance Practice recordings of Wagner, with period instruments and using less vibrato in both the instruments and vocals _(Anybody -- is there such an available recording -- yet? That would fascinate me, at least, to hear!)_, then I think with your particulars you may just have to hire musicians to "do it your way," in such a way at least to cater to your wants.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Until there are Historically Informed Performance Practice recordings of Wagner, with period instruments and using less vibrato in both the instruments and vocals _(Anybody -- is there such an available recording -- yet? That would fascinate me, at least, to hear!)_, then I think with your particulars you may just have to hire musicians to "do it your way," in such a way at least to cater to your wants.


Actually, I think that would be a great idea. I love vocal vibrato, but I understand that for many people it's an acquired taste, which is why so many orchestral music lovers just can't get into opera. Maybe a vibrato-less Tristan und Isolde would help some potential fans cross the threshold.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Is no-vibrato Wagner HIP? The recordings I've heard going back to 1910 (by performers who performed w/ Wagner or those close to Wagner--Muck for example) are certainly not.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rangstrom said:


> Is no-vibrato Wagner HIP? The recordings I've heard going back to 1910 (by performers who performed w/ Wagner or those close to Wagner--Muck for example) are certainly not.


1910 is not the mid 1800's, and correct or not, the current musicological thought is much of that vibrato present in 1910 was far less present in the middle of the Romantic era, i.e. it was a cumulative development. Ergo, more than interesting for there to be a HIPP performance, original instruments, best if recorded in the Beyreuth Festspielhaus with its designed acoustic, and less vibrato used by the singers as well as the instruments (meaning, mainly, the strings.)

It is true that the vocal vibrato _in the actual acoustics of a large hall_, traveling as it does over the orchestra and through that much distance and that many cubic meters of airspace seems far less than it is in the 'in your face' studio recordings, where the singers are right in front of a microphone and then mixed in (i.e. a way in which it was never intended to be heard!)


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Wagner wanted the orchestra hidden under the floor so singers wouldn't so necessarily have to bellow at the top of their lungs to be heard. This already implies less vibrato.

In addition to too much vibrato, I think Wagner performances today have too much theatrics. I wouldn't say there should be none, but I think it should be more subtle and more about music than drama. In Mozart's time arias were obviously more about music and less about acting -- all those repeated lines and the nature of the music itself. This may have been the case still in Wagner's time or at least Wagner himself may have preferred less theatrics and more song, so to speak, even in the hidden recitatives.

In any case, modern recording techniques leave no excuse for not trying a more subtle and historically informed approach.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I wonder if aspects of Karajan's Ring fit this? His use of singers with lighter voices, especially in the Siegliende of Janowitz?


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I have Karajan's Die Walkure somewhere. I don't recall it as being unusual in these terms but should check again.

Another one I should revisit is Carlos Kleiber's Tristan & Isolde with Margaret Price.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Wagner must have a healthy amount vibrato and a heavy emphasis on the spit-inducing German consonants. The volume should be adjusted so the vocals are slightly painful to the ear.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Until there are Historically Informed Performance Practice recordings of Wagner, with period instruments and using less vibrato in both the instruments and vocals _(Anybody -- is there such an available recording -- yet? That would fascinate me, at least, to hear!)_, then I think with your particulars you may just have to hire musicians to "do it your way," in such a way at least to cater to your wants.


Early Bayreuth was famed for its harsh and unpleasant vocals, ie. the "Bayreuth Bark", very anti-legato and exaggerated consonants. I would be careful what one wishes for.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couchie said:


> Early Bayreuth was famed for its harsh and unpleasant vocals, ie. the "Bayreuth Bark", very anti-legato and exaggerated consonants. I would be careful what one wishes for.


The Bayreuth Festpielhaus has a very 'dry' yet resonant acoustic. That big orchestra was under the stage, the brass even further back with a lower ceiling over them, the opening for the sound to come into the theater relatively small, so what volume came out was far less than most are accustomed to outside of those circumstances, Ergo, the singers did not need these huge voices to project over that orchestra. It is the way the man wanted it, a lot 'lighter' than other takes on it, regardless of any current fan's need or hue and cry for "the epic" huge sound.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

PetrB said:


> It is there a very 'dry' yet resonant acoustic. That big orchestra was under the stage, the brass even further back with a lower ceiling over them, the opening for the sound to come into the theater relatively small, so what volume came out was far less than most are accustomed to outside of those circumstances, Ergo, the singers did not need these huge voices to project over that orchestra. It is the way the man wanted it, a lot 'lighter' than other takes on it, regardless of any current fan's need or hue and cry for "the epic" huge sound.


So how did it get that way then?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

PetrB said:


> It is there a very 'dry' yet resonant acoustic. That big orchestra was under the stage, the brass even further back with a lower ceiling over them, the opening for the sound to come into the theater relatively small, so what volume came out was far less than most are accustomed to outside of those circumstances, Ergo, the singers did not need these huge voices to project over that orchestra. It is the way the man wanted it, a lot 'lighter' than other takes on it, regardless of any current fan's need or hue and cry for "the epic" huge sound.


I'll be there for a Ring in August, I'll let you know.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Itullian said:


> So how did it get that way then?


Musical mannerisms are established in one era, then often get more and more emphasized or exaggerated, like ornamentation having gotten so out of hand (musicians adding more and more outside what the composer thought was good taste, to the point where we get Beethoven, and those after, writing in all their ornaments and cadenzas.) It is thought that vibrato, vocal and in the strings, and rubato (tempo liberties) went along the same path of more, and more exaggerated.

Wagner operas: 
Take that large orchestra out of, literally, its container with the small opening and you then have, even with exercised restraint, a much greater amplitude for a singer to sing above or through. In that Wagner-designed hall, the orchestral sound is directed, the singers literally projecting over it, not through it, with much greater ease.

NB: in the diagram on the left, the brass and percussion literally have a lid on them, with a bit of additional downward curve deflector.





















Balance outside of this eccentric and extraordinary orchestra pit set-up is a whole other matter, the sound coming from the pit at Bayreuth almost impossible to duplicate in another opera house, and certainly not in a hall where a selection is performed in concert with guest singer(s).

The hall is wood-paneled, with that carried to an extreme, all the folding audience seats are of wood, with no cushions


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I'll be there for a Ring in August, I'll let you know.


Congratulations. I'm thrilled for you!


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Early Bayreuth was famed for its harsh and unpleasant vocals, ie. the "Bayreuth Bark", very anti-legato and exaggerated consonants. I would be careful what one wishes for.


My understanding is this is probably close to how the Goths sang in Roman times. The Romans didn't even dignify the style by calling it singing, so when historians read Roman accounts of the Goths, they thought that the Goths had no song.

Wagner was very fond of Italian style opera and singing though, so I suspect he wasn't actually a proponent of harsh vocals, but rather wanted the words to be understood, which would have made him prefer a lighter style. Basically the difference between Fischer-Dieskau and Matthias Goerne in Schubert's Winterreise. Cosima wrote in her diary about one performance by Wagner himself that it was so good no one would sing it like that again. I don't think Wagner made such an impression just by barking.

In any case, I'd prefer there to be a variety of different renderings. There would certainly be room for a more popular approach without excessive vibrato and lighter singing. Somehow capitalism has failed even at this, and the style that sells poorly is the one that dominates.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

PetrB said:


> The Bayreuth Festpielhaus has a very 'dry' yet resonant acoustic..


The acoustic cannot be dry and resonant at the same time. The words are contradictory in acoustical terms.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavidA said:


> The acoustic cannot be dry and resonant at the same time. The words are contradictory in acoustical terms.


o.k. petty pedantry might be better satisfied by dry-ish while still being resonant enough. Dry does not mean dead, BTW. I'd call the acoustic in Amsterdams Concertgebouw "wet," with its reverberation time of 2.8 seconds without audience, 2.2 seconds with.

By contrast, the Festpielhaus' reverberation time, at 1.55 seconds, is "drier."

Unless you've already made other plans, have a nice day


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've always found speculation about singing before the recording era fascinating. There are things we know and things we don't know. What we don't know is what the word "vibrato" meant to all the contemporaries of Handel or Mozart or Bellini or Wagner who spoke or wrote about it, and perhaps the best proof of this is that people still often don't know what they mean by it. There have always been complaints about voices that "shake" or "quiver" or "wobble" in ways people find unpleasant. As a former classical singer, I just want to point out that a rapid, narrow oscillation of pitch and volume is a natural feature of a properly supported vocal tone and is ordinarily absent only when consciously suppressed. It gives a pleasing "life" or excitement to the tone, but like any other vocal characteristic it varies from singer to singer. In an improperly produced (forced, overused, unsupported by the breath) voice it can degenerate into an unpleasant shaking or wobbling, and this is unfortunately too common among singers who have strained to sing music too taxing for them, e.g. Wagner. Listen to some of the really great
Wagner singers (Flagstad, Melchior, Schorr, Lehmann, Nilsson, Vickers) and you will not hear distressing, exaggerated vibratos but clean, firm, exciting vocal tone. I don't believe for one second that _any_ 18th or 19th-century opera was sung by people suppressing their natural vibratos, but I _can_ believe that there has nearly always been a preference for individual voices in which the vibrato was narrow in pitch variation and did not draw attention to itself - more of a shimmer than a shake, if I may wax poetical. Wagner sung literally without vibrato would be, quite simply, horrible (as well as, trust me, physically impossible for the singers). But no one would miss the forced wobbling we are too often subjected to.


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## Chordalrock (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm listening to Karajan's Die Walkure with Vickers and Janowitz and that's indeed a lot better in terms of vibrato and excellently sung. I don't think I have anything to complain about that recording, at least the first act and those two singers.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Vibrato in singing is not a bad thing . Wobbly singing is bad . Unfocused tone with
vague pitch . This has always existed . There was no "Golden AAge "of opera 
when singing was uniformly fabulous . Good and bad singing has happened throughout
the history of opera , as well as vocal works in general such as oratorio & lieder .


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

PetrB said:


> 1910 is not the mid 1800's, and correct or not, the current musicological thought is much of that vibrato present in 1910 was far less present in the middle of the Romantic era, i.e. it was a cumulative development. Ergo, more than interesting for there to be a HIPP performance, original instruments, best if recorded in the Beyreuth Festspielhaus with its designed acoustic, and less vibrato used by the singers as well as the instruments (meaning, mainly, the strings.)


[Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I just had say my piece on this one:] That would be convincing, except we can hear the first Parsifal himself in a recording. He sounds just like the other early 20th century/late 19th century Parsifals and heldentenors we have. The vibrato is certainly not as slow or obtrusive as in many more recent recordings. But that tells us about how singing has changed in between the early 20th century and now. Unless Winkelmann himself started adding vibrato in between 1882 and the early 1900s, then the early 20th century recordings seem likely to be very reliable guides to the kind of singing Wagner heard, their sonic limitations aside.

Also, what he does not sound like is what is typically heard in HIP performances and what some are saying would be authentic here: limited chest voice, small voice, lighter timbre, straight tone etc.. Winkelmann had a big, chiaroscuro, chesty voice with proper vibrato. Unless this imagined HIP recording actually can recreate a singer like Winkelmann and his peers, it will be in no way authentic.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

There is a recording on a label I can't recall offhand of an HIP Fliegende Hollander conducted by Bruno Weil. who has done a lot of work with period orchestras , including a Beethoven symphony cycle for Sony with a Canadian period instrument ensemble . 
This was recorded live in Cologne several years ago with a group called Concerto Koln . The orchestra is quite small,. only about 55 musicians . I'm very curious to hear it . 
On youtube, there is also an HIP concert Rheingold with Sir Simon Rattle conducting the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment . Is doest sound very different from the mainstream modern orchestras which regularly do Wagner such as the Met orchestra, The Berlin Phil , Bavarian RSO and Bavarian state orchestra and the Vienna Phil . 
There is also an EMI recording of Wagner overtures and preludes with Norrington and the London Classical players - it's Wagner lite . Not bad at all, but I've never heard any conductor make the Meistersinger overture sound so lacking in weight and grandeur . 
Kent Nagano is also planning to perform and record an HIP Rig in Cologne not too long from now .
This should be interesting .
But whether any of these performers is in any way "authentic " is anyone's guess . We don't have any recordings conducted by Wagner , Hans Richter, or Hermann Levi . 
Wagner's son Siegfried ( 1869-1930 ) made a number of recordings of his father's music with the London symphony orchestra and the Berlin State orchestra , and these avoid any sense of heavy-handedness . You can hear these on youtube .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> There is a recording on a label I can't recall offhand of an HIP Fliegende Hollander conducted by Bruno Weil. who has done a lot of work with period orchestras , including a Beethoven symphony cycle for Sony with a Canadian period instrument ensemble .
> This was recorded live in Cologne several years ago with a group called Concerto Koln . The orchestra is quite small,. only about 55 musicians . I'm very curious to hear it .
> On youtube, there is also an HIP concert Rheingold with Sir Simon Rattle conducting the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment . Is doest sound very different from the mainstream modern orchestras which regularly do Wagner such as the Met orchestra, The Berlin Phil , Bavarian RSO and Bavarian state orchestra and the Vienna Phil .
> There is also an EMI recording of Wagner overtures and preludes with Norrington and the London Classical players - it's Wagner lite . Not bad at all, but I've never heard any conductor make the Meistersinger overture sound so lacking in weight and grandeur .
> ...


In thinking about authenticity in performing Wagner, we should keep several things in mind:

1.) Using instruments like those used in the mid-19th century may tell us something about how Wagner's works sounded to his contemporaries, but once he was presenting his works at the Bayreuth Festspielhaus and tucking a 120-piece orchestra under the stage, I doubt that the subtle differences in sonority would be very noticeable or at all important. Attempts to perform _Parsifal _in particular with period instruments in a concert hall or recording studio certainly don't represent what he heard, or intended audiences to hear.

2.) Playing styles of the time are somewhat conjectural. We do know that Wagner believed in flexible tempos, and he didn't want tempos to drag, apparently a tendency of some conductors confronted with his complex scores. It's worth pointing out that the timings of the first _Parsifal_ at Bayreuth, conducted by Hermann Levi under Wagner's supervision, are almost identical to those of Hans Knappertsbusch in 1962, and that several conductors, including Clemens Krauss and Pierre Boulez, have taken the work faster. A modern recording under Herbert Kegel takes some very fast tempos - damagingly fast, IMO. Maybe this an attempt at "authenticity" run amuck. (I'm similarly unimpressed with Norrington's Wagner. His _Tristan_ prelude is a soulless travesty. You could waltz to it.)

3.) Wagner admired singers trained in Italian "bel canto" style; apparently German vocal schooling at the time resulted in a less refined manner of singing. We do have recordings of singers who sang for him, notably Lilli Lehmann, who was a Rhinemaiden in the premiere of the _Ring,_ and Hermann Winkelmann, the first Parsifal. Both singers are past their best years, but both reveal voices that would be welcome in opera houses today. Both certainly have vibrato, but not of the wobbly, annoying kind.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I think the value of historic recordings for determining performance traditions is greatly underutilized, especially for singing. When it is used, it's used badly as in the case of Norrington. He states that orchestral vibrato wasn't used, but we have video of the orchestras he think played without it using it when he says they didn't! I think the same point that This is Opera makes about singing terminology applies across the board: you have to know what the actual sounds were. Birigt Nilsson sang "in the mask" just like many modern singers, but it's a totally different sound. You have to know what actual sound someone means by "vibrato" to reproduce it authentically. That's why I think historical recordings are so important. We can listen to people who were students of Pasta, or students of her students, and students of students of students of singers even in Mozart or Gluck's time. Some changes probably happened along the way, especially in style. But the fact remains that singers in the early 20th century are products of an aural tradition. Modern Baroque specialists or whatever are _not_ part of that tradition. We can read all we want about what mid-19th century vocal styles were, but listen to the signers: they used vibrato!

Ironically, what we really need is a historically informed practices movement for composers like Puccini! You can't go out and hear a Claudia Muzio, or a Florence Easton, or a Rosa Raisa, or a Giuseppe de Luca, or a Nellie Melba or anyone who sings anything like them at any opera house in the world today. Those were the singers he knew personally and wrote for. By trying to recreate their sounds, we would get a lot closer to authentic singing practices for nineteenth century opera than we ever have by studying documents and vocal manuals, (the only parts of which don't seem to get scrutinized to death are the ones that tell you to develop the chest voice). Then it would be a matter of copying the style of singers like Lehmann, Winkelmann, Patti and Battistini.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

I think there's something to be said for the "teachers of teachers" notion - my teacher studied with Gerard Souzay and showed me a technique he learned from Souzay, whose heyday was about 70 years ago. If I taught (yuk) my students could be teaching that to their students etc etc and pretty soon we're reaching back 100 years.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Exactly! Take Giuseppe Danise, great early 20th century baritone, and teacher of, among others, Giuseppe Valdengo. Here's Wikipedia:


> He attended the Conservatorio di San Pietro a Majella in Naples, where he was trained first by Luigi Colonnese, a baritone of the previous generation whose own pedagogical lineage included Alessandro Busti and the castrato Girolamo Crescentini. According to Danise, for the first year he was only allowed to sing tones-no scales and no songs.


Girolamo Crescentini was born in 1762! He was an active singer during Mozart's time. That's only two to three generations away from the recording, depending on what the sentence means (not sure if Crescentini and Busti are sequential or just both teachers of Colonnese). That's not a lot of steps for methods to change, especially with such a rigorous training as described in the quote.
At the very least Danise gives us a reflection of what Colonnese, an early-mid 19th century singer thought were correct sounds.


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