# What's so special about Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven 5?



## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

I mean, have you heard the 4th movement? It almost sounds as if it was recorded at a different time and place from the other movements AND like it was spliced together; as if it was made up of rehearsal segments. There's even a .25 second cutoff from the beginning of the 4th movement, ruining the transition from mov. 3 to 4. I know the first movement is excellent, so what? It's frustrating when you're trying to find a satisfactory single recording of Beethoven's 5th symphony and the only recommendation you get is C. Klebier's.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I only own 2 versions. The one you are talking about and a version by Karl Bohm and the Vienna Philharmonic on album that includes the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th. Personally and speaking as a non-professional here, I prefer the Kleiber. It just sounds a bit more fiery. I haven't noticed any of the issues you are referring to, or maybe I did and just wasn't bothered by them.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I haven't noticed any "problems" with the Kleiber recording either. Perhaps a defective disc? Kleiber remains one of my "go to" recordings. Fiery indeed! Of course there are any number of great recordings of Beethoven's 5th: Karajan's 1963, Fritz Reiner's, George Szell's, Leonard Bernstein's, John Elliot Gardiner's HIP recordings, Frans Brüggen, etc... All of these bring something worth hearing to Beethoven's symphonies.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Boldertism said:


> I mean, have you heard the 4th movement? It almost sounds as if it was recorded at a different time and place from the other movements AND like it was spliced together; as if it was made up of rehearsal segments. There's even a .25 second cutoff from the beginning of the 4th movement, ruining the transition from mov. 3 to 4. I know the first movement is excellent, so what? It's frustrating when you're trying to find a satisfactory single recording of Beethoven's 5th symphony and the only recommendation you get is C. Klebier's.


I will give you another recommendation ... Otto Klemperer's 1955 recording (_not_ the later one from his complete set). While it is only in mono, the sound is excellent and you quickly forget that it isn't stereo. It is coupled with a recording of the 7th from the same date but for which there was a stereo recording.

As to the glitches, it is always possible that that is a function of the particular remastering ... or did you listen online?


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## Boldertism (May 21, 2015)

Becca said:


> As to the glitches, it is always possible that that is a function of the particular remastering ... or did you listen online?


 I've heard it both on Spotify and CD; both were the remaster and both had these issues.


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## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

I have the Kleiber, but I rarely listen to it. 

My preferred renditions are Gardiner live at Carnegie Hall and John Nelson with the Ensemble Orchestral de Paris.

Listen to what you like, ignore the conventional wisdom.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

It sounds like you have a defective recording. My Kleiber 5th doesn't have the 25 second gap and sounds completely organic, no noticeable splicing, however I don't have a sound engineer's ear. I must admit I now prefer Bernstein and Karajan's 5th's, but Kleiber is a great interpretation as well.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

MrTortoise said:


> It sounds like you have a defective recording. My Kleiber 5th doesn't have the 25 second gap and sounds completely organic, no noticeable splicing, however I don't have a sound engineer's ear. I must admit I now prefer Bernstein and Karajan's 5th's, but Kleiber is a great interpretation as well.


That's a .25 second glitch, not 25 second haha. That would be unexcusable for sure.


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## MrTortoise (Dec 25, 2008)

Dustin said:


> That's a .25 second glitch, not 25 second haha. That would be unexcusable for sure.


Indeed, misread that! Next time I'll listen for that much smaller gap.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Forget Kleiber, have some Gardiner.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I haven't listened to that CD in a long time and I think it's at my parents' house now so I can't check, but it was a favorite of mine when I was a teenager and I don't remember any glitch between the third and fourth movements.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I actually do hear the very momentary glitch but it doesn't bother me in the least. The only glitches that bother me are when I hear people sneezing and coughing on my albums. No better or quicker way to take me away from the music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

What's so special?

That one can pay full price for a CD that contains only 1/2 hour of music. I did!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

For LvB Symphony #5...I go with Reiner or Toscanini....really fiery, white-hot intensity


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> What's so special?
> 
> That one can pay full price for a CD that contains only 1/2 hour of music. I did!


But it comes with The 7th, doesn't it?


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

of course its overrated. The best for the 5th are Chailly, Vanska, Gardiner followed closely by Bernstein.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> But it comes with The 7th, doesn't it?
> 
> View attachment 93122


I believe I bought it when it just had the Fifth.


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## Julius Seizure (Mar 28, 2017)

it is loud and loud work for allegro and it boom ambience i FEEL GOOD!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kleiber's Fifth is a fine performance but it has been over-hyped. Other performances are just as fine, flying under the radar, such as the Gunter Wand performance.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate (May 24, 2015)

I really enjoy the entire cycle recorded by Osmo Vanska. Great recordings. But I also have the Kleiber recording and love it, especially paired with the 7th (which currently is my favorite of Beethoven's symphonies).


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I too think it's overrated. I hardly listen to it. My favorite 5th is Wand. I like Gardiner too. I am yet to hear Vanska, of which I hear many good reviews.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Ekim the Insubordinate said:


> I really enjoy the entire cycle recorded by Osmo Vanska. Great recordings. But I also have the Kleiber recording and love it, especially paired with the 7th (which currently is my favorite of Beethoven's symphonies).


I like Kleiber's 7th much more than 5th.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

lluissineu said:


> But it comes with The 7th, doesn't it?
> 
> View attachment 93122


Not on L.P it don't


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Julius Seizure said:


> it is loud and loud work for allegro and it boom ambience i FEEL GOOD!


Pass me some of your pills. :lol:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

It is special because it is the DEFINITIVE version.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> It is special because it is the DEFINITIVE version.


I like firm statements.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Pugg said:


> I like firm statements.


You always get a smart *** post like my last one on each thread.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Kleiber's is great. I do find Karajan's 1975-77 cycle version has pretty similar sound quality, in tempo, articulation and intensity, but slightly superior on all counts.

But, above all, my all time favorite would probably be Gardiner's 2016 rendition with the BBC: 



 ... It's even better than his 1992 cycle rendition (which would probably be in my top 10 5ths), and (though a tough call) also his Live at Carnegie Hall version (the sound of which drops off somewhat on a couple brief occasions, though the performance is probably equal).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Carlos Kleiber's 5th was originally issued on a single CD. That was quite a stingy edition! It was later combined with the 7th, making for a more generous helping. Still, my tastes run to more several recent performances (not that Kleiber's are bad!)


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

What really matters is that we buy at least half a dozen different recordings of Beethoven's symphonies, and perhaps a dozen of the more popular ones (3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th). Then we can properly debate Kleiber vs. various Karajans vs. the Bernsteins vs. Toscanini vs. Gardiner vs. whatever else you want to add.... This is very important.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Chronochromie said:


> Forget Kleiber, have some Gardiner.


Which Gardiner version do you have, the studio one or the live at Carnegie Hall?


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Many consider it a definitive performance. I like it but only equally to some others. Kleiber has a mystique about him which helps his popularity. 

I have it on cd and dont remember those technical issues. I'll listen again.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm one of the many. The Vienna Phil.play as if their lives depended on it and Kleiber harnesses that white heat to an interpretation which invests each moment with its own tremendous power but combines that with an irresistible forward momentum. He did the same in other recordings too (e.g.Schubert's "Unfinished" and Weber's "Der Freischütz" to name just a couple) and that mystique is fully earned IMHO.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

It's a benchmark performance and set the standard for years. However, like many others, I rarely play it these days and much prefer Honeck's coupling of the same two symphonies with the Pittsburgh SO. Now that is a very special recording and the sound is superb (no 'glitches'). ;-)


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I think both Karajan 1963 Fifth with the Berlin Philharmonic and Georg Solti's Fifth with the Vienna Philharmonic are better balanced without sacrificing the grandeur and excitement.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Interesting. Could you explain a little more what you mean by "better balanced"?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Merl said:


> It's a benchmark performance and set the standard for years. However, like many others, I rarely play it these days and much prefer Honeck's coupling of the same two symphonies with the Pittsburgh SO. Now that is a very special recording and the sound is superb (no 'glitches'). ;-)


Are the fact that you rarely play it these days and your preference for Honeck's recording based on recorded sound alone? If not, for interest's sake I'd be grateful if you could say a bit more about your reasons.

I'd also be interested to see your evidence for that "like many others" bit.


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

It's a wonderful performance but then again, so are many others. My personal favourite is one that doesn't come up that often, Carlo Maria Giulini and the LA Philharmonic; slower tempo but superb sound and to my ears, just perfect.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Templeton said:


> It's a wonderful performance but then again, so are many others. My personal favourite is one that doesn't come up that often, Carlo Maria Giulini and the LA Philharmonic; slower tempo but superb sound and to my ears, just perfect.


Oh yeah, I love Guilini's Beethoven. His 3rd with LA Phil is my favorite right now.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Interesting. Could you explain a little more what you mean by "better balanced"?


It's a combination of factors for me. In his Beethoven Fifth and Seventh I find Kleiber's interpretations intermittently bordering on relentless. Just too fast and too driven. The recording itself also imparts an edginess to the sound. Certainly drama and excitement have their place in this symphony, but pushing things too aggressively can irritate, and that's how I find myself reacting to Kleiber here.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

After listening to Honeck's 5th with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, I would say that is also superior to Kleiber's (though that doesn't mean I don't still think highly of it) and might be even better than the 2016 BBC Gardiner I linked to on the previous page ... ... I would also say that the Honeck/Pitt Orch 7th (on the same disc) is most likely the best I've ever heard. I am really hoping he does the 9th as well as a full cycle. The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra might just be the best in the world right now and his 9th (and cycle) would have so much potential to be among the best, if not THE best ever recorded.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Haydn67 said:


> It's a combination of factors for me. In his Beethoven Fifth and Seventh I find Kleiber's interpretations intermittently bordering on relentless. Just too fast and too driven. The recording itself also imparts an edginess to the sound. Certainly drama and excitement have their place in this symphony, but pushing things too aggressively can irritate, and that's how I find myself reacting to Kleiber here.


That's fair enough. I don't find the same, but _vive la différence_. :tiphat:


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## Robert Gamble (Dec 18, 2016)

There's a recording that beats Kleiber's for me.. Kleiber. Erich Kleiber that is. I really do like Carlos Kleiber's interpretation but I had the same impression regarding the 4th movement as the original poster. Erich's reading flows so much more naturally, especially from the 3rd to 4th movement. There are some poorly played or recorded moments (shrill) in the 4th movement of Erich's, but if I had to pick one, it would be the father's.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: I find nothing special about Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven 5. It's simply okay.

I find it to be extremely over-rated while the recording of Gunter Wand is not and runs rings around it.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Hmm. I haven't heard the Gunter Wand in a while, I'll have to give it another listen, because my impression from memory was that it was a very clean, precise approach to the work -- a very different temperament from the Kleiber. I had the same thoughts about Wand's Eroica. Not bad per say, but I perhaps prefer a little more fire and brimstone in those particular symphonies.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

I have the C. Kleiber's Beethoven 5th, but honestly I have always preferred Karajan's 1963 rendition. Kleiber's is NOT the definitive recording of the 5th for me.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I swear by George Szell with the Cleveland


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

The greatest interpreter of the 5th on record is Furtwangler. His recordings from 1943, 1947 (two of them) and 1954 are more "definitive" than any other I have heard.

Here is the 1954, which is the slowest but has the best sound by far:






My favorite is the May 25, 1947. The closing two minutes of the final movement are thrilling. Furtwangler really shows his gift here for spontaneity. With Kleiber it sounds monotonous and anti-climactic.

The 1943 is fierce and compact. The later 1947 (May 27) is better recorded on DG but not as inspired as the performance from two days earlier. The May 23, 1954 is slower but monumental and profound. The transition to the finale is overwhelming. And the 6th from the same concert is to me the definitive 6th. (The 6th from 5/25/47 is not far behind)


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Nothing! There are many performances that are as fine or better. Check out Wand and Abbado.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

jdec said:


> I have the C. Kleiber's Beethoven 5th, but honestly I have always preferred Karajan's 1963 rendition. Kleiber's is NOT the definitive recording of the 5th for me.


About four people have said this on this thread, and I agree. The Karajan 63 box set, containing this, is a keystone of my collection, what I would grab if my house was on fire:


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

For me, Carlos Kleiber's Beethoven No. 5 really offers just what I want to hear and expect to hear, and Karajan's No. 5 is a very close second. I have C. Kleiber's/Vienna, Karajan's/Berlin from 1982, George Szell's/Cleveland from 1963, Furtwangler's/Vienna from 1954, Tilson Thomas/San Francisco, and Josef Krips/London Symphony Orchestra. I have never heard a slower pace in the fourth movement Allegro than Furtwangler's. I find Furtwangler's the hardest to listen to because of this, and may be why I love the Kleiber so much. He does drive it, and I really like going along for that ride. Karajan also has an insistent and powerful drive which I like very much. Funny, that tiny gap between third and fourth movements in the Kleiber I hear only when I'm wearing headphones. Without the headphones, it somehow disappears.


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Animal the Drummer said:


> I'm one of the many. The Vienna Phil.play as if their lives depended on it and Kleiber harnesses that white heat to* an interpretation which invests each moment with its own tremendous power but combines that with an irresistible forward momentum*. He did the same in other recordings too (e.g.Schubert's "Unfinished" and Weber's "Der Freischütz" to name just a couple) and that mystique is fully earned IMHO.


I couldn't agree more! This 'irresistible forward momentum' is also evident in another C. Kleiber album which is Brahms' Symphony No. 4. It is another one of my favorites.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kleiber's Fifth is fine if you are in a hurry. Nice and neat. No repeats, as contrasted with Abbado who takes all of them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Kleiber's Fifth is fine if you are in a hurry. Nice and neat. No repeats, as contrasted with Abbado who takes all of them.


Kleiber's 5th originally appeared on LP. With repeats, the symphony lasts anywhere from about 32 minutes on up. This would have presented some severe problems.

BELAY THAT! Just remembered that the 5th was the _only _work on that LP (and on the initial extraordinarily short CD that followed it). The repeats could probably have been taken.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

I don't like Brahms 4 driven hard, and much prefer Bruno Walter to Kleiber, and i even prefer Walter to Karajan in the less driven "even numbered" Beethoven symphonies. (Not the 5th though! Walter's too relaxed for the fifth.)


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

AfterHours said:


> After listening to Honeck's 5th with the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, I would say that is also superior to Kleiber's (though that doesn't mean I don't still think highly of it) and might be even better than the 2016 BBC Gardiner I linked to on the previous page ... ... I would also say that the Honeck/Pitt Orch 7th (on the same disc) is most likely the best I've ever heard. I am really hoping he does the 9th as well as a full cycle. The Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra might just be the best in the world right now and his 9th (and cycle) would have so much potential to be among the best, if not THE best ever recorded.


Could not agree more. Honeck's 5th is muscular and downright exciting but the 7th is even better. It grabs you by the scruff if the neck from the beginning. Those 2 performances are right at the top of my LvB recordings (along with Gardiner's Live Carnegie disc), Leinsdorf's 9th, Markevitch's 5th and 8th, etc. I hope Honeck does complete the cycle one day. I've no doubt it would be immense.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I like the VPO 5th very much but not more than a good few others. I also like the 7th from the same source. What I do not greatly like was the Schubert 3 and 8 that they did. I don't think early Schubert responds well to being driven hard and his Unfinished is OK but there are a good many better performances as far as I am concerned.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Here's Toscanini '39 in a great remastering:




Perhaps the most pumped up version of first movement I've heard; incredibly fast, like a rough bob sleigh ride, with breaks slammed on for a beautiful, if hard edged, performance of the slow movement. Great final movement, back on the bobsleigh, up and down, really powerful crescendo's, a real thrill ride. This is serious competition for Kleiber, maybe even for Karajan '63.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I was once convinced of the C. Kleiber hype, bought the CD of the 5th, and heard some of what others heard. The sound wasn't good, however, and over time I didn't feel his 7th danced. It returned on a super audio disc and the sound was greatly improved. However, it still seemed to be just another 5th. I too thought his interpretation of Brahm's 4th denied its autumnal splendor for forced intensity.

About the fifth symphony I line up with what Herbert Russcol said in his 1968 book: "(I) just emerged from many hours of living with an assortment of many recordings of the Fifth (he reviewed 14) and can faithfully report that (I) found this piece utterly moving and a sublime work."

For me, it is with the Schmidt 4th symphony and a few others a work that can't be done poorly by a professional orchestra.

It may interest some that, in 1968, Russcol reviewed Kleiber's father's recording (Erich Kleiber) with his highest recommendation saying, "Another great version is Kleiber's resounding Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra." Martin Bookspan, in his 1970 book, called it "unrivaled for forward thrust and cumulative power."

It often seemed to me the "Carlos fans" were unaware his father was a conductor as well with a far larger discography.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Mal said:


> I don't like Brahms 4 driven hard, and much prefer Bruno Walter to Kleiber, and i even prefer Walter to Karajan in the less driven "even numbered" Beethoven symphonies. (Not the 5th though! Walter's too relaxed for the fifth.)


I like the Walter/Columbia 4th also, but it doesn't seem to garner much support these days. In fact, it appears some of his sensitive and poetic interpretations of various works have been falling out of favor more and more with the passage of time. Otherwise, my choices for the Beethoven 5th continue to be Karajan's from his 1963 Berlin set, and Solti's late 1950s Vienna Philharmonic reading. As for the 7th (not one of my favorite symphonies), I lean toward Reiner/Chicago and Bernstein's second (1969) NY Philharmonic presentation.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

As far as his DG symphony recordibgs go, Klieber's Beet5 is great to my ears, much better than his Schub8, and much, much better than his Brahms4.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2018)

The magnificent Carlos Kleiber's version of Beethoven #5 is very much of its time. I love it and I also love Harnoncourt's version with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe. These are my desert island versions.

But I think Kleiber's finest achievement in the concert hall is the Brahms #4; febrile, intense, poetic, driving its narrative from start to finish with detail and logic. I've loved this performance since I was in my 30s and a recording of it was found in Kleiber's car CD player after he'd died alone in that house in Slovenia in July, 2004. I cried when I read that. He had driven from Munich, across the alps to the little village of Konjšica, to a country retreat, where he ended it all. Whenever I hear this work I will always have a mental image of it playing in his Audi on the way there. Who wants to die alone like this?


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## Ras (Oct 6, 2017)

Two critics from Gramophone magazine discuss the pros and cons of Kleiber's Beethoven:

http://goo.gl/K9mEjX


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