# Best Tannhauser?



## Itullian

Only heard it a few times. 

best recordings?


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## musicologyman

Wow, that's a tough one! To begin, you have to deal with multiple versions of Tannhäuser. For many years, the conventional wisdom--probably reinforced by the C.F. Peters score--maintained that there were two versions, the original Dresden version (1845) and the revised Paris version (1861). In the form that the Paris version has come to be known, though, the scores is really a conflation of more than one set of revisions (including those for an 1875 Viennese production). The article on wikipedia can give you a good taste of what the issues are.

Of the recordings I have, only one is of the Dresden version--the Haitink recording on EMI--and I find the performance underwhelming. I have two of the traditional Paris version: Solti and Sinopoli. While the Sinopoli has some great sounding singers--Placido Domingo, Andreas Schmidt, and Matti Salminen are the real standouts--Domingo's German is not very good. Worse, though, Sinopoli's conducting is some of the dullest I've ever heard. So if you want a Paris version in modern sound, you're probably stuck with Solti.

Actually, my two favorite Tannhäusers are both hybrids of the traditional versions: Sawallisch and Barenboim. Sawallisch uses the Bacchanale from the Paris version, but he uses the Dresden score for the following Venus-Tannhäuser scene. Venus is the African-American soprano Grace Bumbry, in one of the most famous and controversial performances in the history of "New Bayreuth"--the idea of a "schwarze Venus" was a bit much for many in the early 1960s audience. Barenboim uses the Dresden version for the opening scene, but uses the Paris version for the Venus-Tannhäuser scene.

In short, you really can't own just one Tannhäuser. But if you want a simple recommendation, go with Solti or Barenboim. Avoid Sinopoli and Haitink. If you can find the Sawallisch, you'll be glad you did.


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## Chi_townPhilly

Nice first post...

I like the Sawallisch _Tannhäuser_ (and Anja Silja's Elisabeth) too. I also like Solti's rendition with a younger Kollo as Tannhäuser, the incomparable Crista Ludwig as Venus and Helga Dernesch as Elisabeth.

The Sawallisch gives you the Bayrueth Orchestra, the Solti gives you the Vienna Philharmonic.

Hate to have to choose between these two-- so I don't. 
Both of these recordings are in Medium Rotation on my chosen playback devices.


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## GoneBaroque




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## Chi_townPhilly

↑Oh, dear... 

Just thinking about _Dich, teure halle_ as an instrumental strikes me as 'Contra Naturam.'


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## DavidA

This thread is a bit elderly but I've just acquired the Sallawisch which derives from a Wieland Wagner production at 1962 Bayreuth. A suitably frenzied Overture and Venusberg complete with cheer from cast as curtain went up!


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## bigshot

I like Sinopoli. I think Domingo does a good job in this one.


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## Marschallin Blair

musicologyman: Of the recordings I have, only one is of the Dresden version--the Haitink recording on EMI--and I find the performance underwhelming. I have two of the traditional Paris version: Solti and Sinopoli. While the Sinopoli has some great sounding singers--Placido Domingo, Andreas Schmidt, and Matti Salminen are the real standouts--Domingo's German is not very good. Worse, though, Sinopoli's conducting is some of the dullest I've ever heard. So if you want a Paris version in modern sound, you're probably stuck with Solti.









Respecfully, I couldn't disagree more. The Sinopoli Tannhauser has some of the most gorgeously-crafted Venusburg music I've ever heard-- where Sinopoli has me lolling voluptuously in Venus' scarlet paradise; his contours of the choral ending of the opera are magnificent; his "Entry of the Guests" is the most noble and spirited I've heard. . . But sure, to each his own; _non disputandum_.


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## Marschallin Blair

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Nice first post...
> 
> I like the Sawallisch _Tannhäuser_ (and Anja Silja's Elisabeth) too. I also like Solti's rendition with a younger Kollo as Tannhäuser, the incomparable Crista Ludwig as Venus and Helga Dernesch as Elisabeth.
> 
> The Sawallisch gives you the Bayrueth Orchestra, the Solti gives you the Vienna Philharmonic.
> 
> Hate to have to choose between these two-- so I don't. Both of these recordings are in Medium Rotation on my chosen playback devices.











Exactly. Indulge. Get them all. I love Christa Ludwig as Venus. Why stop the parade?-- join.


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## Itullian

For the Dresden, I suggest this one.


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## Itullian

The Solti has been remastered and sounds better.


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## Aramis

Itullian said:


> For the Dresden, I suggest this one.


I've read review which states something in the lines of "Windgassen's voice might be effete but the legendary tenor makes up for it with his experience".

Uhm. I don't think any amount of experience, class or legendary status can help you when you sound simply bad. I would disrecommend this recording, especially for somebody about to hear Tannhauser for the first time. Kollo all the way.

Or the 1978 Bayreuth for the DVD, where you get wagnerian yeller in the title role, but one with rather fine voice and some acting skills.


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## Itullian

Aramis said:


> I've read review which states something in the lines of "Windgassen's voice might be effete but the legendary tenor makes up for it with his experience".
> 
> Uhm. I don't think any amount of experience, class or legendary status can help you when you sound simply bad. I would disrecommend this recording, especially for somebody about to hear Tannhauser for the first time. Kollo all the way.
> 
> Or the 1978 Bayreuth for the DVD, where you get wagnerian yeller in the title role, but one with rather fine voice and some acting skills.


Respectfully disagree. This is a fine Dresden version.


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## DavidA

Amazing how Sinopoli's conducting polarised opinions. Like Domingo's Wagner!


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## SixFootScowl

musicologyman said:


> Wow, that's a tough one! To begin, you have to deal with multiple versions of Tannhäuser. For many years, the conventional wisdom--probably reinforced by the C.F. Peters score--maintained that there were two versions, the original Dresden version (1845) and the revised Paris version (1861). In the form that the Paris version has come to be known, though, the scores is really a conflation of more than one set of revisions (including those for an 1875 Viennese production). The article on wikipedia can give you a good taste of what the issues are.
> 
> Of the recordings I have, only one is of the Dresden version--the Haitink recording on EMI--and I find the performance underwhelming. I have two of the traditional Paris version: Solti and Sinopoli. While the Sinopoli has some great sounding singers--Placido Domingo, Andreas Schmidt, and Matti Salminen are the real standouts--Domingo's German is not very good. Worse, though, Sinopoli's conducting is some of the dullest I've ever heard. So if you want a Paris version in modern sound, you're probably stuck with Solti.
> 
> Actually, my two favorite Tannhäusers are both hybrids of the traditional versions: Sawallisch and Barenboim. Sawallisch uses the Bacchanale from the Paris version, but he uses the Dresden score for the following Venus-Tannhäuser scene. Venus is the African-American soprano Grace Bumbry, in one of the most famous and controversial performances in the history of "New Bayreuth"--the idea of a "schwarze Venus" was a bit much for many in the early 1960s audience. Barenboim uses the Dresden version for the opening scene, but uses the Paris version for the Venus-Tannhäuser scene.
> 
> In short, you really can't own just one Tannhäuser. But if you want a simple recommendation, go with Solti or Barenboim. Avoid Sinopoli and Haitink. If you can find the Sawallisch, you'll be glad you did.


I wonder how these ramifications play out in the realm of Tannhauser on DVD?

 Old thread. I know, but .....


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## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> I wonder how these ramifications play out in the realm of Tannhauser on DVD?
> 
> Old thread. I know, but .....


This is one of the first threads I remember looking at before I became a member. So, I'm resurrecting it again. :lol:

As far as _Tannhäuser _on DVD, I don't think there have been any video performances of the Dresden version. So, that should make things a little simpler. There is a DVD of the beautiful Otto Schenk production at the Met:

View attachment 132549


That would probably be my recommendation.

I think someone mentioned a Bayreuth video from the 1970s. That one would probably be good, but it has a Venusberg bacchanale that makes me rather uncomfortable.

On CD, I have three recommendations: Sinopoli (for Wagner completists only), Haitink, and Solti.

I tend to agree with those who find the Sinopoli recording boring. It is so lifeless. Parts like the Rome narrative are fine enough, but good parts such as the overture, the bacchanale, the entry of the guests, etc. are just so boring. No one seems passionate at all. And I'm not much of a fan of Domingo in Wagner operas (sorry!). I only recommend this for Wagner completists who want a pure Paris Version (more properly termed the Vienna Version). I think this is one of the few recordings that doesn't hybridize versions.

For the Dresden Version, I recommend the Haitink recording which happens to be a pure Dresden Version. Someone said they thought it was dull, but personally I don't think it's dull. Lucia Popp plays Elisabeth, and she sounds brilliant! Bernd Weikl is probably my favorite Wolfram (he plays Wolfram on the Met DVD also). Waltraud Meier is great as Venus. I also liked her rapid vibrato. Klaus König is obscure and maybe not the most expressive "Heinrich", but he's not bad. I believe he is the tenor on the Bernstein recording of Beethoven's ninth symphony performed for the removal of the Berlin Wall. I believe the Gerdes recording was mentioned. This looks amazing on paper, but it just doesn't work from the samples I've heard of it. Windgassen is past his prime for sure. And, although Birgit Nilsson is probably my favorite singer, I just don't know what I think of her singing both Venus and Elisabeth.

The Solti recording is probably the best all around, though I tend to lean towards the Dresden Version perhaps. The Solti recording isn't a pure Paris Version (again, actually Vienna Version), but the booklet with the CD gives the details for the changes made (nothing drastic), and I believe the changes are justified and are actually more conducive to what Wagner would want. René Kollo is very good as "Heinrich". I don't understand why he gets so much criticism. He is extremely expressive here, and you can really feel the emotions of the character. Christa Ludwig (Venus), as usual, is also brilliant. Helga Dernesch is good as Elisabeth. Victor Braun isn't one of my favorite Wolframs (his vibrato can be weird at times, for one thing), but he does well enough. Solti conducts the piece well, and nothing really strikes me as dull at all. This is an exciting performance with excellent sound! The movement of the pilgrims' chorus is accomplished well, and I appreciate the use of cow bells in the later scene of Act I. I got the Blu-Ray audio/CD combo release:

View attachment 132552


I don't know if the Blu-Ray audio is noticeably better, but the CDs sound great.

Well, those are my recommendations. _Tannhäuser _is one of my favorite operas. :angel:
Everyone should try it.


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## Rmathuln

adriesba said:


> This is one of the first threads I remember looking at before I became a member. So, I'm resurrecting it again. :lol:
> 
> As far as _Tannhäuser _on DVD, I don't think there have been any video performances of the Dresden version. So, that should make things a little simpler. There is a DVD of the beautiful Otto Schenk production at the Met:
> 
> View attachment 132549
> 
> 
> That would probably be my recommendation.
> 
> I think someone mentioned a Bayreuth video from the 1970s. That one would probably be good, but it has a Venusberg bacchanale that makes me rather uncomfortable.
> 
> On CD, I have three recommendations: Sinopoli (for Wagner completists only), Haitink, and Solti.
> 
> I tend to agree with those who find the Sinopoli recording boring. It is so lifeless. Parts like the Rome narrative are fine enough, but good parts such as the overture, the bacchanale, the entry of the guests, etc. are just so boring. No one seems passionate at all. And I'm not much of a fan of Domingo in Wagner operas (sorry!). I only recommend this for Wagner completists who want a pure Paris Version (more properly termed the Vienna Version). I think this is one of the few recordings that doesn't hybridize versions.
> 
> For the Dresden Version, I recommend the Haitink recording which happens to be a pure Dresden Version. Someone said they thought it was dull, but personally I don't think it's dull. Lucia Popp plays Elisabeth, and she sounds brilliant! Bernd Weikl is probably my favorite Wolfram (he plays Wolfram on the Met DVD also). Waltraud Meier is great as Venus. I also liked her rapid vibrato. Klaus König is obscure and maybe not the most expressive "Heinrich", but he's not bad. I believe he is the tenor on the Bernstein recording of Beethoven's ninth symphony performed for the removal of the Berlin Wall. I believe the Gerdes recording was mentioned. This looks amazing on paper, but it just doesn't work from the samples I've heard of it. Windgassen is past his prime for sure. And, although Birgit Nilsson is probably my favorite singer, I just don't know what I think of her singing both Venus and Elisabeth.
> 
> The Solti recording is probably the best all around, though I tend to lean towards the Dresden Version perhaps. The Solti recording isn't a pure Paris Version (again, actually Vienna Version), but the booklet with the CD gives the details for the changes made (nothing drastic), and I believe the changes are justified and are actually more conducive to what Wagner would want. René Kollo is very good as "Heinrich". I don't understand why he gets so much criticism. He is extremely expressive here, and you can really feel the emotions of the character. Christa Ludwig (Venus), as usual, is also brilliant. Helga Dernesch is good as Elisabeth. Victor Braun isn't one of my favorite Wolframs (his vibrato can be weird at times, for one thing), but he does well enough. Solti conducts the piece well, and nothing really strikes me as dull at all. This is an exciting performance with excellent sound! The movement of the pilgrims' chorus is accomplished well, and I appreciate the use of cow bells in the later scene of Act I. I got the Blu-Ray audio/CD combo release:
> 
> View attachment 132552
> 
> 
> I don't know if the Blu-Ray audio is noticeably better, but the CDs sound great.
> 
> Well, those are my recommendations. _Tannhäuser _is one of my favorite operas. :angel:
> Everyone should try it.


The BluRay Audio of the Solti is awesome. 
I just got into bed - now I may not be able to sleep until get out the bed and go listen to it.
My best friend's father would play this recording while we played cards 45 years ago. I got hooked on CM as a result.


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## adriesba

Rmathuln said:


> The BluRay Audio of the Solti is awesome.
> I just got into bed - now I may not be able to sleep until get out the bed and go listen to it.
> My best friend's father would play this recording while we played cards 45 years ago. I got hooked on CM as a result.


Yes, it's very good. 

That's cool that you got into classical music through the recording. I got into Wagner through the overtures and preludes CD from Deutsche Grammophon, particularly the _Tannhäuser _overture, which happens to be the Gerdes performance, on that set.


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## Ulfilas

I personally find this easy to answer: Barenboim (Teldec).

However there is one proviso - Waltraud Meier. I think she's great, but YMMV. Otherwise Solti has great singers, but Barenboim is a better conductor, and the recording quality is exceptional.


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## NLAdriaan

There just was a blind comparison of the Tannhauser ouverture here on TC. Just a few of us joined. My favourite turned out to be Thielemann. He however never recorded the full opera though, he conducted Tannhauser at Bayreuth last year as a stand in for Gergiev. My second place turned out to be Solti. The other contestants, which I didn't like, were Karajan, Janowski and Tennstedt.

The Gerdes recording is interesting, because he only conducted very few recordings, of which Tannhauser survived. Gerdes mainly used to be a producer for Deutsche Grammophon.


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## adriesba

NLAdriaan said:


> There just was a blind comparison of the Tannhauser ouverture here on TC. Just a few of us joined. My favourite turned out to be Thielemann. He however never recorded the full opera though, he conducted Tannhauser at Bayreuth last year as a stand in for Gergiev. My second place turned out to be Solti. The other contestants, which I didn't like, were Karajan, Janowski and Tennstedt.
> 
> The Gerdes recording is interesting, because he only conducted very few recordings, of which Tannhauser survived. Gerdes mainly used to be a producer for Deutsche Grammophon.


I saw the blind comparison but noticed it after it waned and the answers were posted. I noticed the Solti one seemed to be well-received.

I still need to get Solti's recording of the Dresden Version of the overture.

Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen another recording of anything conducted by Gerdes.


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## adriesba

Has anyone heard the Karajan recording? Not much seems to ever be said of it on the internet, but it looks good on paper.

View attachment 132556


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> Has anyone heard the Karajan recording? Not much seems to ever be said of it on the internet, but it looks good on paper.
> 
> View attachment 132556


Like many Tannhauser recordings, it would be great except for the casting of the title role.


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## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> Like many Tannhauser recordings, it would be great except for the casting of the title role.


I see. I've never even heard of him. Maybe I'll end up getting it someday, even if it's just to hear Janowitz.


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> I see. I've never even heard of him. Maybe I'll end up getting it someday, even if it's just to hear Janowitz.


It's worth picking up despite the low rent leading man. The ladies are excellent, and Frick and Wachter are good as the Landgraf and Wolfram, and the other minnesingers are better than usual--always nice when the song contest is actually worth hearing. It's just not really recommendable as the best version when the title role casting is so crucial to a good performance of this opera, and Beirer is a below average Tannhauser.


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## wkasimer

howlingfantods said:


> Beirer is a below average Tannhauser.


That's very charitable. I find him virtually unlistenable in every recording of him that I've ever heard.


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## Rogerx

Strange nobody mention this one, Domingo's German is not top-notch but the ladies are stunning, besides that, the sound is very good.
After the Solti one this would be my choice.


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## wkasimer

Rogerx said:


> Strange nobody mention this one, Domingo's German is not top-notch but the ladies are stunning, besides that, the sound is very good.
> After the Solti one this would be my choice.


Bigshot mentioned it early in this thread.

While I'm not a big fan of Domingo's forays into Wagner, this is the best of them. His German is better here than it is on the Jochum Meistersinger, and vastly superior to his often consonant-free German in live performance. And the recorded competition, Melchior aside, is pretty weak. The rest of cast is excellent, and it's the Paris version.

Really not a fan of the Solti recording. It's one of Kollo's poorer recordings (and his best ones are none too good), and the Wolfram of Victor Braun is substandard (and unlike the situation with the title role, the recorded competition for Wolfram is pretty fierce). The only redeeming quality of this recording is Ludwig's Venus.


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## Rogerx

wkasimer said:


> Bigshot mentioned it early in this thread.
> 
> While I'm not a big fan of Domingo's forays into Wagner, this is the best of them. His German is better here than it is on the Jochum Meistersinger, and vastly superior to his often consonant-free German in live performance. And the recorded competition, Melchior aside, is pretty weak. The rest of cast is excellent, and it's the Paris version.
> 
> Really not a fan of the Solti recording. It's one of Kollo's poorer recordings (and his best ones are none too good), and the Wolfram of Victor Braun is substandard (and unlike the situation with the title role, the recorded competition for Wolfram is pretty fierce). The only redeeming quality of this recording is Ludwig's Venus.


Sorry, didn't see it, but I just remember that Haitink with Popp /Klaus König/ Meier is also very good.


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## DavidA

Must confess I thought this was a boring piece but the Solti does make it sound exciting.


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## wkasimer

Rogerx said:


> Sorry, didn't see it, but I just remember that Haitink with Popp /Klaus König/ Meier is also very good.


As usual with this opera, the problem with the Haitink recording is the singer of the title role.


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## adriesba

Rogerx said:


> Strange nobody mention this one, Domingo's German is not top-notch but the ladies are stunning, besides that, the sound is very good.
> After the Solti one this would be my choice.


I mentioned it in my post. But like I said, I find it boring. It's strange how divisive this recording seems to be on this thread. I wonder why.


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## adriesba

Rogerx said:


> Sorry, didn't see it, but I just remember that Haitink with Popp /Klaus König/ Meier is also very good.


Yes, that's one of the ones I recommend.


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## adriesba

wkasimer said:


> As usual with this opera, the problem with the Haitink recording is the singer of the title role.


Which recording do you think has the best singing for the title role?


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Which recording do you think has the best singing for the title role?


Any of the recordings with Melchior.


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> Which recording do you think has the best singing for the title role?


Lately I've been thinking Peter Seiffert in the Barenboim. Windgassen is good too, and obviously Melchior. And count me in the pro-Domingo camp.

Some criticize Seiffert for not sounding angsty enough, but I actually quite like that Seiffert (and Domingo for that matter) actually sing the role instead of howling or gasping or orating or whatever it is that others are doing.


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## adriesba

How is the Konwitschny recording?


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## Rogerx

adriesba said:


> I mentioned it in my post. But like I said, I find it boring. It's strange how divisive this recording seems to be on this thread. I wonder why.


So many people so many preference, but that said I can see where you coming from, Studer is a bit "brave" but Baltsa is very good. no match for the Solti though. Just like the conducting., brave, no risks.
If you have both try the beginning from disc 2 ......the clarinet part .......:angel:


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## adriesba

Rogerx said:


> So many people so many preference, but that said I can see where you coming from, Studer is a bit "brave" but Baltsa is very good. no match for the Solti though. Just like the conducting., brave, no risks.
> If you have both try the beginning from disc 2 ......the clarinet part .......:angel:


From "Dich teure Halle"?


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## Rogerx

adriesba said:


> From "Dich teure Halle"?







Yes, just before that , the short intro:angel:


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## adriesba

I do have both the Solti and the Sinopoli. I agree, the intro to "Dich teure Halle" is good on the Sinopoli, and Studer is good also. I think she just has some tough competition with the singers on other recordings.

I simply love "Dich teure Halle"! :angel:
It perfectly expresses Elisabeth's mood at that moment so that you want to rejoice with her.

_Tannhäuser _is one of those operas that, if I want to just listen to my favorite parts, I end up listening to half of it or more. It's just so good.


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## adriesba

OK, I just found something interesting. This picture which says "Klaus König" on it shows the same costume that Domingo wears on the cover of the Sinopoli recording. They might have sung in the same production, perhaps. It's strange. König is so obscure that it's hard to find a picture of him, but when I happen to find one, it has some familiarity. :lol:

View attachment 132790


Apparently this was on Ebay. The link I clicked doesn't take me to it though. I might have bought it, if it were available.


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> How is the Konwitschny recording?


Pretty good, actually! Grummer is as outstanding as one would expect. Hopf is much better than I would have expected--not in my top few Tannhauser performances but a strong one. Fischer-Dieskau's voice is in very good shape still in 1960, and he keeps the mugging and irritating habits to a minimum, and his voice is actually well suited to the role. And there's some serious luxury casting with Wunderlich as Walther.


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> OK, I just found something interesting. This picture which says "Klaus König" on it shows the same costume that Domingo wears on the cover of the Sinopoli recording. They might have sung in the same production, perhaps.


Highly unlikely. Domingo never sang Tannhauser on stage anywhere.


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## adriesba

I wonder how they got the same costume though. Maybe König actually did sing it at the Royal Opera House, and they pulled out the costume just for the CD.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Georg Solti/Vienna Philharmonic on lp


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## Rogerx

Brahmsian Colors said:


> Georg Solti/Vienna Philharmonic on lp
> 
> View attachment 133196


Clearly a winner. :angel:


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## adriesba

Rogerx said:


> Clearly a winner. :angel:


Yeah, that's the one everyone keeps mentioning.


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## adriesba

I just found the Karajan recording on YouTube for anyone interested.
















Janowitz doesn't play Elizabeth though. She's the shepherd. 

Maybe she couldn't sing it? 

I wonder why Karajan didn't record _Tannhäuser _in the studio.


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> Janowitz doesn't play Elizabeth though. She's the shepherd.
> 
> Maybe she couldn't sing it?


This is just early in her career when she was still taking supporting roles. She was also one of the blumenmadchen in some of Knappertsbusch's early 60s Parsifals.

I don't believe she ever did a studio Tannhauser but there is a live one with Kollo and Sawallisch from 1972. I've not bothered picking it up since I dislike Kollo's studio performance for Solti a year later, so I can't report on the quality of her performance. She's a wonderful Elsa and Eva, so one would think she'd be a good Elisabeth as well.


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## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> This is just early in her career when she was still taking supporting roles. She was also one of the blumenmadchen in some of Knappertsbusch's early 60s Parsifals.
> 
> I don't believe she ever did a studio Tannhauser but there is a live one with Kollo and Sawallisch from 1972. I've not bothered picking it up since I dislike Kollo's studio performance for Solti a year later, so I can't report on the quality of her performance. She's a wonderful Elsa and Eva, so one would think she'd be a good Elisabeth as well.


OK. Kollo doesn't necessarily bother me, so I may try it. I think Janowitz would be excellent as Elisabeth.


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## Lilijana

Best Tannhäuser? Look no further:


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## adriesba

Lilijana said:


> Best Tannhäuser? Look no further:


Is Flagstad Venus or Elisabeth in that recording?


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## annaw

adriesba said:


> Is Flagstad Venus or Elisabeth in that recording?


Flagstad is singing Elisabeth in that recording.
I just recently listened to Sawallisch's _Tannhäuser_ and enjoyed it immensely.


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## adriesba

So on this discography page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannhäuser_discography

it says regarding the Konwitschny recording, "Dresden Version (reverts to Paris for small section in Act II)".

What section is it talking about?


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## visionquest1972

I would go with the Placido Domingo version.


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## howlingfantods

adriesba said:


> So on this discography page:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannhäuser_discography
> 
> it says regarding the Konwitschny recording, "Dresden Version (reverts to Paris for small section in Act II)".
> 
> What section is it talking about?


Must be a minor change. i think the most notable difference between the Dresden and Paris in Act 2 is the elimination of Walther's aria during the song competition, but Konwitschny includes it--which is a good thing since Wunderlich as Walther is one of the selling points for this recording.

Unfortunately, including more Wunderlich makes the listener start to wish he was the one singing the Tannhauser part rather than Hopf....


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## Barbebleu

adriesba said:


> Is Flagstad Venus or Elisabeth in that recording?


Can't imagine Flagstad as Venus. Wrong range I should think.


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## Barbebleu

visionquest1972 said:


> I would go with the Placido Domingo version.


So long as you were going a long way away with it


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## adriesba

Barbebleu said:


> Can't imagine Flagstad as Venus. Wrong range I should think.


Of course Nilsson sang Venus though I don't think that's the right range for her either. So I just thought there was the slightest possibility that Flagstad sang Venus.


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## howlingfantods

Barbebleu said:


> Can't imagine Flagstad as Venus. Wrong range I should think.


I don't think Flagstad is really an Elisabeth either. I think Pristine should've remastered the Szell/Melchior recording with Traubel, although Traubel is also not exactly my ideal for Elisabeth, but I think she's a little closer than Flagstad.


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## adriesba

howlingfantods said:


> I don't think Flagstad is really an Elisabeth either. I think Pristine should've remastered the Szell/Melchior recording with Traubel, although Traubel is also not exactly my ideal for Elisabeth, but I think she's a little closer than Flagstad.


True. For one thing, although I can sometimes be a Nilsson fanatic, I feel like Elisabeth is more for voices like Janowitz, Grümmer, or Popp. So it's hard for me to hear voices like Nilsson in the role. I can imagine I'd feel the same way if I heard Flagstad sing it.


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## Blutskarhud

Flagstad was an angelica Elisabeth... There is three complete recordings 1936,1939,1941.


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## adriesba

adriesba said:


> So on this discography page:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannhäuser_discography
> 
> it says regarding the Konwitschny recording, "Dresden Version (reverts to Paris for small section in Act II)".
> 
> What section is it talking about?





howlingfantods said:


> Must be a minor change. i think the most notable difference between the Dresden and Paris in Act 2 is the elimination of Walther's aria during the song competition, but Konwitschny includes it--which is a good thing since Wunderlich as Walther is one of the selling points for this recording.
> 
> Unfortunately, including more Wunderlich makes the listener start to wish he was the one singing the Tannhauser part rather than Hopf....


I figured it out. It is the part that starts with the words "Zum Heil" towards the end of Act II. In the Dresden version, this is sung as an ensemble, but in the Paris version, the parts for all the singers except Tannhäuser are removed making it a solo for Tannhäuser.

I agree with you about hearing Wunderlich. I wonder if he could have sung Tannhäuser well had he lived longer. Hopf's voice irritates me, and switching to the Paris version for that section means that one hears Hopf's lone voice more than if the recording had been a pure Dresden version.


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## SixFootScowl

musicologyman said:


> In short, you really can't own just one Tannhäuser. But if you want a simple recommendation, go with Solti or Barenboim. Avoid Sinopoli and Haitink. If you can find the Sawallisch, you'll be glad you did.


Interesting as I just skimmed over the *Wikipedia discography for Tannhauser* and thought that Barenboim, Sinopoli, and Sawallisch (Silja) all sounded good because I like some of the singers. I only have Haitink and *Heger*, both from bigger Wagner opera sets.


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## SixFootScowl

This one looks very good. * Sound Clips Here*









A better cover image IMO:


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## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> This one looks very good. * Sound Clips Here*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A better cover image IMO:


It looks good on paper, but as I mentioned in the other thread, Windgassen was way past his prime and is tough to listen to while Nilsson isn't a good fit for either of the roles. One of the weakest recordings in my opinion, but if you're interested, by all means try it. It does have Fischer-Dieskau.


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## Rogerx

Blutskarhud said:


> Flagstad was an angelica Elisabeth... There is three complete recordings 1936,1939,1941.


Please tell us more.


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## SixFootScowl

Tannhauser is quickly becoming one of my favorite operas. I have listened to Solti and Konwitschny recordings and both are very good but not enough to move me to purchase. I have the Barenboim recording and it is good too, but probably not going to get spun that much. My top Tannhauser recordings are 

Sawallisch, 1972, Live in Perugia, Prague Phlharmonic Choir, with Gundula Janowitz

Heger, 1951, Bayerische Staatsoper

Sinopoli 1988, Philharmonia Orchestra (Domingo and Studer)

I have not heard any others at this time, but think this is probably enough.


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## Barbebleu

Rogerx said:


> Please tell us more.


In the absence of a reply from Blutskarhud - All New York Met performances. '36 had Melchior, Flagstad and Bodanzky. '39 had Laholm, Flagstad and Leinsdorf. '41 had Melchior, Flagstad and Leinsdorf. They are all available on either Amazon or Pristine Classical or Immortal Performances. Is this what you were asking Rogerx?


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## wkasimer

SixFootScowl said:


> I have not heard any others at this time, but think this is probably enough.


You really need to hear one of the ancient recordings with Melchior. And if not, at least listen to his Rome Narration:


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## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> You really need to hear one of the ancient recordings with Melchior. And if not, at least listen to his Rome Narration:


Well I have heard much about this singer on TC but he does nothing for me. Not sure why, but the voice does not come through to me with beauty, perhaps because of the recording quality.


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## Barbebleu

SixFootScowl said:


> Well I have heard much about this singer on TC but he does nothing for me. Not sure why, but the voice does not come through to me with beauty, perhaps because of the recording quality.


Heretic!:lol: You realise Woodduck will likely excommunicate you!


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## starthrower

I need to re-read this thread in order to help me decide on a first Tannhauser recording. The remaining major Wagner opera I haven't experienced. I just put on Klemperer's Dutchman to keep me company.


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## SixFootScowl

Barbebleu said:


> Heretic!:lol: You realise Woodduck will likely excommunicate you!


Well, maybe in a different recording I would like Melchior.


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## SixFootScowl

starthrower said:


> I need to re-read this thread in order to help me decide on a first Tannhauser recording. The remaining major Wagner opera I haven't experienced. I just put on Klemperer's Dutchman to keep me company.


Well you have to decide first if you want the Dresden or the Paris version. Most are Dresden. Sinopoli and Solti I believe are Paris. The discography on Wikipedia generally tells what version or admixture each recording is, but does not list my Sawallisch recording with Janowitz. I would be interested in hearing about what recording you select.


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## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> Well I have heard much about this singer on TC but he does nothing for me. Not sure why, but the voice does not come through to me with beauty, perhaps because of the recording quality.


First Itullian, now you? You guys are killin' me! :lol:



Barbebleu said:


> Heretic!:lol: You realise Woodduck will likely excommunicate you!


Woodduck and I both could excommunicate them, but that would be very much like what the Pope did to Tannhäuser, wouldn't it? Better to be like Elisabeth.

I think the only singer who might have approached the quality of Melchior in Tannhäuser was Max Lorenz, but I don't know that he recorded the whole thing.


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## annaw

SixFootScowl said:


> Well, maybe in a different recording I would like Melchior.


Wkasimer's video has Melchior in 1923 - young and fresh-voiced. I like this one as well, even if it's recorded in 1930:






Sorry, not _Tannhäuser_, but Melchior's Siegmund is iconic: 




Melchior had that wonderful, effortless trumpet sound, which many parts of _Tannhäuser_ seem to bring out very nicely. Melchior really was the heldentenor _par excellence_.


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## adriesba

starthrower said:


> I need to re-read this thread in order to help me decide on a first Tannhauser recording. The remaining major Wagner opera I haven't experienced. I just put on Klemperer's Dutchman to keep me company.


You may also want to reference this thread: Favorite recording of Tannhäuser: Poll


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## Barbebleu

starthrower said:


> I need to re-read this thread in order to help me decide on a first Tannhauser recording. The remaining major Wagner opera I haven't experienced. I just put on Klemperer's Dutchman to keep me company.


Solti. :tiphat:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## SixFootScowl

annaw said:


> Wkasimer's video has Melchior in 1923 - young and fresh-voiced. I like this one as well, even if it's recorded in 1930:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Melchior had that wonderful, effortless trumpet sound, which many parts of _Tannhäuser_ seem to bring out very nicely. Melchior really was the heldentenor _par excellence_.


Much better sound here. I can't complain. Not sure I would buy the complete opera, but if there is a recording from this I would check it out.

There, now I am reconciled with Woodduck and adriesba.


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## starthrower

Barbebleu said:


> Solti. :tiphat:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


No inexpensive copies to be found. As I recall, this is why I abandoned my search a year or two ago.


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## amfortas

starthrower said:


> No inexpensive copies to be found. As I recall, this is why I abandoned my search a year or two ago.


Available on Amazon for about ten bucks, plus shipping. What am I missing?


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## starthrower

amfortas said:


> Available on Amazon for about ten bucks, plus shipping. What am I missing?


Thanks! There are several editions and I didn't see that one at Amazon.


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## adriesba

amfortas said:


> Available on Amazon for about ten bucks, plus shipping. What am I missing?


That is the old remaster. I think it's been remastered three times. But if you're not picky about sound, you'll probably be happy with any of them. It's Decca after all.


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## starthrower

Remastered doesn't necessarily mean better sound. I usually buy old slipcase editions for 4-5 dollars and they sound fine. The latest Solti remaster is the Blu-Ray/CD edition which is quite expensive.


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## Itullian

i have the 2nd with the blue cover.

i passed on the 3rd remaster because they put the 3 acts on 2 discs which broke up act 2
The blue 2nd remaster has one act per disc.


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## Itullian

Just got this one.
The sound is great!!!
And the singing too.
One act per disc.


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## adriesba

starthrower said:


> Remastered doesn't necessarily mean better sound. I usually buy old slipcase editions for 4-5 dollars and they sound fine. The latest Solti remaster is the Blu-Ray/CD edition which is quite expensive.


Sometimes they do sound better, but with Decca the sound is really good to begin with. I have the blu-ray release, and it sounds really good. Definitely glad I got it before the price started going up, but what is worth it depends on your sound quality tastes.



Itullian said:


> i have the 2nd with the blue cover.
> 
> i passed on the 3rd remaster because they put the 3 acts on 2 discs which broke up act 2
> The blue 2nd remaster has one act per disc.


You mean, the blu-ray release? I have it, each act is on its own disc.


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## amfortas

adriesba said:


> That is the old remaster. I think it's been remastered three times. But if you're not picky about sound, you'll probably be happy with any of them. It's Decca after all.


I won't go into details, but I got my copy for free, so there's not a lot of buyer's remorse.


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## Itullian

adriesba said:


> Sometimes they do sound better, but with Decca the sound is really good to begin with. I have the blu-ray release, and it sounds really good. Definitely glad I got it before the price started going up, but what is worth it depends on your sound quality tastes.
> 
> You mean, the blu-ray release? I have it, each act is on its own disc.


So there are 4 discs included?
3 cd, i blu ray?


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## Rmathuln

Itullian said:


> So there are 4 discs included?
> 3 cd, i blu ray?


Correcto mundo!


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## adriesba

Itullian said:


> So there are 4 discs included?
> 3 cd, i blu ray?


Yes, three regular CDs with one whole act each, then one blu-ray audio disc with the whole thing.

I get what you mean. Some act divisions across discs can be really sloppy, but this set doesn't divide the acts.


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## Itullian

adriesba said:


> Yes, three regular CDs with one whole act each, then one blu-ray audio disc with the whole thing.


Thanks. the cover is different than the Tristan remaster then

The Tristan says 4 discs on the top band and it has 3cds, i blu ray
The Tannhauser says 3 discs and in the picture shows 2 cds and 1 blu ray


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## starthrower

What year is the performance on that Sawallisch Philips CD? I want to seeif I can stream it first. I'm listening to the Solti on YT now.


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## adriesba

starthrower said:


> What year is the performance on that Sawallisch Philips CD? I want to seeif I can stream it first. I'm listening to the Solti on YT now.


It's from 1962.


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## SixFootScowl

Itullian said:


> Just got this one.
> The sound is great!!!
> And the singing too.
> *One act per disc*.


The nice thing is that should always be the case with Tannhauser.


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## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> The nice thing is that should always be the case with Tannhauser.


The last one I bought had Acts II and III split rather poorly, even repeating the music already heard on the last disc. 

But it was because they had to fit some extras on disc 3. Fortunately, they are good extras!


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## SixFootScowl

adriesba said:


> The last one I bought had Acts II and III split rather poorly, even repeating the music already heard on the last disc.
> 
> But it was because they had to fit some extras on disc 3. Fortunately, they are good extras!


Would rather they sprinkle the extras over the three disks and leave the acts whole.


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## Itullian

SixFootScowl said:


> Would rather they sprinkle the extras over the three disks and leave the acts whole.


Yupsters .................


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## Itullian

starthrower said:


> What year is the performance on that Sawallisch Philips CD? I want to seeif I can stream it first. I'm listening to the Solti on YT now.


1962.......................................


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## SixFootScowl

What is the best Sawallisch Tannhauser recording?

*1961:Bayreuth Festival*
Tannhäuser - Wolfgang Windgassen
Elisabeth - Victoria de los Ángeles
Wolfram von Eschenbach - Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau
Venus - Grace Bumbry
Hermann, Landgraf von Thüringen - Josef Greindl
Walther von der Vogelweide - Gerhard Stolze
Biterolf - Franz Crass
Heinrich der Schreiber - Georg Paskuda
Reinmar von Zweter - Theo Adam
Hirt - Elsa Margaretha Gardelli

*
1962:Bayreuth Festival*
Tannhäuser - Wolfgang Windgassen
Elisabeth - Anja Silja
Wolfram von Eschenbach - Eberhard Wächter (Waechter)
Venus - Grace Bumbry
Hermann, Landgraf von Thüringen - Josef Greindl
Walther von der Vogelweide - Gerhard Stolze
Biterolf - Franz Crass
Heinrich der Schreiber - Georg Paskuda
Reinmar von Zweter - Gerd Nienstedt
Hirt - Elsa Margaretha Gardelli

*1967 Teatro alla Scala*
Tannhäuser - Hans Beirer
Elisabeth - Sena Jurinac 
Wolfram von Eschenbach - Victor Braun
Venus - Janis Martin
Hermann, Landgraf von Thüringen - Martti Talvela
Walther von der Vogelweide - Jeff Morris
Biterolf - Konrad Peitzke
Heinrich der Schreiber - Willy Müller
Reinmar von Zweter - Gotthard Schubert
Hirt - Carole Malone
*
1972 RAI Roma*
Tannhäuser - René Kollo
Elisabeth - Gundula Janowitz
Wolfram von Eschenbach - Wolfgang Brendel
Venus - Mignon Dunn
Hermann, Landgraf von Thüringen - Manfred Schenk
Walther von der Vogelweide - Karl-Ernst Mercker
Biterolf - Jef Vermeersch
Heinrich der Schreiber - Martin Finke
Reinmar von Zweter - Mario Chiappi
Hirt - Elke Schary

Data from:
https://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLWATANN.HTM

I would do a poll but really would need to provide access to each of these on You Tube if available.


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## adriesba

There are actually two from 1961, one from July 23rd and one from August 3rd:



















It seems that most people like these two best. Overall, they have the strongest cast (the same cast).


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## SixFootScowl

adriesba said:


> There are actually two from 1961, one from July 23rd and one from August 3rd:
> It seems that most people like these two best. Overall, they have the strongest cast (the same cast).


Hmmm, one would have to pick between the two from 1961, or if one were a Tannhauser fan who is also a Sawallisch fan, they might have to get all five.


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## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> Much better sound here. I can't complain. Not sure I would buy the complete opera, but if there is a recording from this I would check it out.
> 
> There, now I am reconciled with Woodduck and adriesba.


I think it has been mentioned in this thread, but if you want a _Tannhäuser_ with Melchior, the one Pristine Classical has is a good performance with good sound.

If you want to hear the performance, this is it:






With Pristine's remastering it sounds even better than this, which you can hear from the sample they give on the website.


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## adriesba

SixFootScowl said:


> Hmmm, one would have to pick between the two from 1961, or if one were a Tannhauser fan who is also a Sawallisch fan, they might have to get all five.


One thing that may make a difference is that in the later one (Orfeo) Windgassen has a noticeable cold and sort of coughs through some lines. But the Orfeo performance does have better sound quality. Despite his cold, I think Windgassen may actually be a bit more energetic in the later performance. I really need to give both of them a more thorough listen though.


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## annaw

SixFootScowl said:


> Hmmm, one would have to pick between the two from 1961, or if one were a Tannhauser fan who is also a Sawallisch fan, they might have to get all five.


Someone (maybe Granate?) did an in-depth comparison about the two 1961 Bayreuth recordings. Will see if I can find it but if I recall correctly, the difference wasn't really significant.


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## starthrower

adriesba said:


> There are actually two from 1961, one from July 23rd and one from August 3rd:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems that most people like these two best. Overall, they have the strongest cast (the same cast).


I'm glad I checked this thread again. I was wondering if they were the same or not? Anyway, the Myto is less than half the price of the Orfeo. Of the YouTube uploads I found, the sound is much better on the 1962. 



1961


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## adriesba

starthrower said:


> I'm glad I checked this thread again. I was wondering if they were the same or not? Anyway, the Myto is less than half the price of the Orfeo. I don't know which one I'm listening to on YT but it sounds tremendously exciting and teaming with energy. Better than Solti to my ears.


That is neither one of those but is the 1962 performance also conducted by Sawallisch.


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## starthrower

Yeah, that's why I posted both upload links. The 1962 has much better sound.


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## adriesba

starthrower said:


> Yeah, that's why I posted both upload links. The 1962 has much better sound.


The 1962 one was commercially recorded by Philips, so it sounds the best of the three. The other two I think are radio broadcasts(?). But the Orfeo one actually sounds pretty good for mono sound.


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## starthrower

Unfortunately, I can't find any affordable copies of the Philips so I'll just have to keep checking, or get the Solti.


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