# What makes Scriabin so controversial exactly?



## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I've always heard Scriabin was such a polarizing composer, where you (allegedly) either love him or hate him. I haven't listened to him enough to get an idea as to whether he suits my tastes or not, but what is it about him that's so polarizing exactly? I can see why he would provoke harsh criticism from reactionaries of his time, but why does that persist to this day? 

I think the whole premise of the Mysterium, apocalypse in the Himalayas extravaganza is goofy and mentally bereft, but from a purely musical standpoint I don't find anything that could be construed as horribly offensive (I'm listening to the Sonata no. 5 as I'm writing this). So people more knowledgeable than I, where does it all come from?


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Too Romantic for some people, I guess. Same reason why a lot of people hate Rachmaninov. Some find the music self-indulgent. I don't fall into this category and love both.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I find him an uneven composer, mostly pretty boring and sometimes offensive to the ears (I left him on this afternoon during a nap, and regretted it), but also great sometimes. He believed melody to be harmony in horizontal form. In his White Mass he showed it the clearest to me. A bunch of chords, and repeating notes in the chord in between in improvisation. In my opinion:

Mediocre Scriabin: Sonatas 1-4, 7.

*Bad Scriabin*






**** Great Scriabin ****


----------



## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I find a lot of his piano music to sound like a bunch of cacophonous banging in the loud sections and like aimlessly meandering scraps in the slower sections (maybe this depends on the performance - I’ve listened to Sofronitsky who everyone says is the best but it sounds like he hammers the stuffing out of the piano which really turns me off) It comes off sounding like a bunch of sort of interesting ideas that aren’t very well connected, very “spasmatic” and disjointed. I think the 2nd sonata is a nice piece of music though.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I find most of his music enchanting and beautiful. And much less gushingly romantic than Rachmaninov. Scriabin the man was quite controversial. Over a hundred years on his music is less so. The piano music requires more of an investment in listening to absorb as it strikes me as more abstract than his orchestral works.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

I heard he had small hands that did not span a 9th. And look what he wrote:


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I onestly didn't even realize he's considered controversial. Personally I love what I've heard of him, his harmonies especially for the time and especially in the later part of his life were super interesting

Sonata No. 6





Poem of Ecstasy





Five preludes Op. 74





Clearly as a person he wasn't exactly sane tough, to put it mildly. But it doesn't matter.


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I think controversy requires a certain threshold of discussion that I am not sure is met in this case. Is Scriabin even frequently the subject of discussion?


----------



## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Yeah, I don't think Scriabin's very "controversial". I think he's more "eccentric". He certainly does have a solid cult following among many pianists though. Apart from some of the shorter piano pieces, I pretty much don't get it.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

JAS said:


> I think controversy requires a certain threshold of discussion that I am not sure is met in this case. Is Scriabin even frequently the subject of discussion?


In certain circles (pianists, etc.) absolutely.


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> In certain circles (pianists, etc.) absolutely.


And is he controversial in those circles? Is his music controversial? Is he personally controversial?


----------



## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

I think his music changed so much over the course of his (short) career, that it's hard to place him. I discovered his music through his last two symphonies. Very modern, atonal in part, both coming in at under 24 minutes. Had he lived longer he probably would have stayed on this path and been closer to the music of Schoenberg than the late Romantics. 

The controversy comes, I think, from his bizarre philosophies and how he tried to incorporate them into his compositions near the end of his life. To me, eccentric behavior on the part of an artist is not surprising and, while a point of interest, nothing that detracts from the art.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

JAS said:


> And is he controversial in those circles? Is his music controversial? Is he personally controversial?


Yes; yes; not sure. (No one seems to be getting too hung up over composers' personal lives these days.) It's very much a love it or hate it phenomenon.


----------



## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

flamencosketches said:


> Too Romantic for some people, I guess. Same reason why a lot of people hate Rachmaninov. Some find the music self-indulgent. I don't fall into this category and love both.


Scriabin too romantic? No. Only his early pieces, such as his piano concerto and the first four piano sonatas, are written in the romantic tradition and are reminiscent of Chopin or Rachmaninov. Later he developed a totally unique style, that I think is a tough nut to crack for some people. I certainly consider his later piano sonatas to be pretty difficult music, and just like with modern music, some people never connect to it. Hence the controversy.


----------



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Scriabin too romantic? No. Only his early pieces, such as his piano concerto and the first four piano sonatas, are written in the romantic tradition and are reminiscent of Chopin or Rachmaninov. Later he developed a totally unique style, that I think is a tough nut to crack for some people. I certainly consider his later piano sonatas to be pretty difficult music, and just like with modern music, some people never connect to it. Hence the controversy.


Even his late, borderline or completely atonal music remains firmly rooted in the Romantic tradition, from my perspective. I didn't mean to imply that he sounded anything like Rachmaninov, only that folks who are inclined to dislike one may likely also dislike the other. As for Chopin, there is a resemblance in Scriabin's early music, but I agree with you that he outgrew it and found a completely original, yet quintessentially late-Romantic voice.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The 4th sonata mediocre? That's nuts, it's one of the greatest piano sonatas ever written.

Scriabin's music is very powerful, but the question I'm still mulling over is whether the good or the evil ultimately manages to prevail in his output.


----------



## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

OMG.

The 5 against 3 piano music above gives me a headache just LOOKING at it. And the "5" note figures have an embedded melody that plays on 3 and 5.

Maybe I'll have the courage to have a listen later. Right now it's off to sub as accompanist at a Lutheran church. All of today's hymns are in F major, and sound suspiciously alike. The lyrics are why I'll never be a Lutheran.

For instance, the 3rd verse of today's hymn of the day:

_I am trusting Thee for cleansing
In the crimson flood; 
Trusting Thee to make me holy By Thy blood._

Or the 5th verse of today's Opening Hymn:

_He fills the poor with good; He gives the suff'rers rest.
The Lord hath judgements for the proud and justice for th' oppressed._

Bleah.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm another who somehow missed the alleged controversy. I like a number of the short piano pieces. Most of his larger works strike me as atmospherically interesting moment by moment but aimless, vague, and unfocused on the large scale.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I wouldn't call a composer controversial that has the profile of Scriabin. He doesn't have a signature piece, is not often played in concert, and generally is not known by casual music fans. I once surveyed a "top 99" composers in musicological guides; he didn't even register while people like Schnittke and Victor Herbert did. Hard to imagine someone like that being controversial.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I think the question about why he's controversial is interesting. I only know the piano music, and mostly music where he freed himself of the obvious influence of Chopin. It's obvious to me why this music is controversial. It's because it is _erotic._ Much more mature that Wagner's Tristan, which is less an invocation of sex than an invocation of orgasm.

Listen to this

1. Sonata No. 5, Op. 53 - Alexander Scriabin (1872-1915) - Chitose Okashiro, Piano - YouTube

This is something Finnissy understood in his homage to Scriabin

Finnissy - SKRYABIN in itself (Jared Redmond, piano) - YouTube


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

larold said:


> I wouldn't call a composer controversial that has the profile of Scriabin. He doesn't have a signature piece, is not often played in concert, and generally is not known by casual music fans. I once surveyed a "top 99" composers in musicological guides; he didn't even register while people like Schnittke and Victor Herbert did. Hard to imagine someone like that being controversial.


Scriabin is a much more important composer than either Schnittke or Victor Herbert.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> I'm another who somehow missed the alleged controversy. I like a number of the short piano pieces. Most of his larger works strike me as atmospherically interesting moment by moment but aimless, vague, and unfocused on the large scale.


His sonatas are very economical in their thematic development, highly organized. Probably the most significant body of sonatas post Beethoven.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> His sonatas are very economical in their thematic development, highly organized. *Probably the most significant body of sonatas post Beethoven.*


Prokofiev

Aimless and unfocused music can also be economical and highly unified.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

clavichorder said:


> Probably the most significant body of sonatas post Beethoven.


Sciarrino, Ustvolskaya


----------



## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

I'm surprised whilst reading this thread. I remember buying a Dover edition of his preludes and études a long time ago and trying to play them. Some I could, most I couldn't. Originally I'd heard a recording of his _Poème_ (op.32) either on the radio or a TV programme and thought it marvellous. 
I find his piano music both lyrical fresh-sounding. His pushing at the boundaries of tonality is not a problem for me. It never affected his music in the same way pushing at the tonality boundaries never adversely affected Debussy's music.

Maybe he was 'controversial' in 1903 or something among some musical conservatives somewhere. Who cares.


----------



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Chat Noir said:


> I'm surprised whilst reading this thread. ...
> 
> Maybe he was 'controversial' in 1903 or something among some musical conservatives somewhere. Who cares.


I think the controversy is about Scriabin's occult leanings, as in the Piano Sonatas No.6 "White Mass" and No. 8 "Black Mass," and his unconventional lifestyle. I remember that when Faubion Bowers' _Scriabin: A Biography_ appeared in my teen years, Scriabin received a lot more attention in the West than he had for several decades. He was a fabulous pianist and improviser -- as students at the Moscow Conservatory Scriabin was considered the pianist, Rachmaninov the composer. But after an arm injury hampered Scriabin's career and he turned to mysticism, I think that some of his compositions emerged as masterpieces and others simply lacked form.


----------

