# Do you enjoy Frank Zappa?



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I've been listening to a lot of it lately, and am still letting it sink in. I'm not completely sold on it, but I know I appreciate the musicianship of his bands.

But his lyrics lack class, so I don't care for that part of it, and I don't think his compositions are all that interesting (how many does he actually have?) for the most part, and find a lot of them pretentious. Peaches is a great one, as is the last track on Hot Rats, "It Must Be A Camel" imo. Those are the only two that come to mind.

Feel free to try to sway my opinion, I'm open, I know Zappa has some fans around here.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I never found anything pretentious about Zappa music. FZ was a straight shooting honest person and there's nothing phony about his music. I find much of it to be very interesting. He didn't follow rules of academic music. He had a gift for melody and a knack for creating very challenging rhythmic structures in his pieces.

I know you're already a fan, 36 because you have mentioned FZ's music and albums previously. And you went to a Dweezil concert.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I like fair bit of Zappa, especially his 70s and early 80s stuff. Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation are personal faves but Sheik Yerbouti is a great album too. Dinah Moe Hum is a wonderful track but so is The Torture Never Stops. Incredible guitarist.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Merl said:


> I like fair bit of Zappa, especially his 70s and early 80s stuff. Apostrophe and Overnite Sensation are personal faves but Sheik Yerbouti is a great album too. Dinah Moe Hum is a wonderful track but so is The Torture Never Stops. Incredible guitarist.


Yes, his improvisational skills are fantastic!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah, I enjoy listening to Frank solo on Torture, and Inca Roads. I have many live recordings.

36, why would you say his compositions aren't interesting? Have you listened to pieces such as The Black Page, Dupree's Paradise, Pedro's Dowry, Mo n Herb's Vacation, Greggery Peccary, Eric Dilphy Memorial Barbecue? These are all very interesting and unique compositions.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I never found anything pretentious about Zappa music. FZ was a straight shooting honest person and there's nothing phony about his music. I find much of it to be very interesting. He didn't follow rules of academic music. He had a gift for melody and a knack for creating very challenging rhythmic structures in his pieces.
> 
> I know you're already a fan, 36 because you have mentioned FZ's music and albums previously. And you went to a Dweezil concert.


I enjoyed the Hot Rats part best at Dweezil.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> Yeah, I enjoy listening to Frank solo on Torture, and Inca Roads. I have many live recordings.
> 
> 36, why would you say his compositions aren't interesting? Have you listened to pieces such as The Black Page, Dupree's Paradise, Pedro's Dowry, Mo n Herb's Vacation, Greggery Peccary, Eric Dilphy Memorial Barbecue? These are all very interesting and unique compositions.


It's just seems his more pop friendly, filth inspired songs, seem to cover the majority of his output on albums. And when he decides to make an instrumental album, it's something coerced like Uncle Meat.

(I enjoy Jazz From Hell, though that isn't a band).


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

There is a lot for me to love about Zappa, and a lot for me to dislike about him. I think overall, I respect him, and enjoy the aspects that do it for me, but he isn't a favorite of mine.


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## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

yes the "Mud Shark" tune Whipping Post his version


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> And when he decides to make an instrumental album, it's something coerced like Uncle Meat.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? Uncle Meat is not an instrumental album. And coerced? I don't follow you.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I'm not sure what you are trying to say here? Uncle Meat is not an instrumental album. And coerced? I don't follow you.


Uncle Meat has lots of instrumental portions, so it stood out as an instrumental album to me. However, you're right, it's not purley all instrumental. It seems to me, what's important about that disc are the instrumental portions, and they feel forced to me.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Frank, Sun Ra, and George Clinton all started as doo-*** acts. Their music was made for the road and making people smile. Frank was so conscious of his "show-biz" role that he couldn't hide it - hence no "class" which I think is a judgment none of them would have cared much about anyway. He could not stop addressing his audience as if they were part of the show. He performed with them not just to them. That's why the live sets are so interesting. His satirical side seems to have timeless relevance, growing wise with age.

PS My first fave song was Call Any Vegetable. But my favorite album (I'm not that familiar with his work) would be One Size Fits All, for now. If I was to recommend an album to start with it would be Joe's Garage. I also have Can't Do That On Stage Vols 1-3 and like them all.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

A couple weeks ago I bought the re-issued CD of Absolutely Free and it sounds wonderful. I'm also very much enjoying the Orchestral Favorites expanded edition. The in between song banter has been included at full length and it's great fun and a lot of laughs.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I can see why you think he's pretentious or forced, Capt'n. His rhythms are not the usual for pop or rock, but based on more 'complex' rhythms similar to some 20th Century Classical. They have been called rhythmic dissonance, since they don't fit nicely within the beat.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> I can see why you think he's pretentious or forced, Capt'n. His rhythms are not the usual for pop or rock, but based on more 'complex' rhythms similar to some 20th Century Classical. They have been called rhythmic dissonance, since they don't fit nicely within the beat.


I could see why you would love it, being such unique and different sounding music. Ha!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Actually I'm not a really that big of a Zappa fan, and don't like his tendency to jam later in his career. I do like Uncle Meat and his first album though.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Actually I'm not a really that big of a Zappa fan, and don't like his tendency to jam later in his career. I do like Uncle Meat and his first album though.


Have you ever heard Jazz From Hell? I love that album.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Have you ever heard Jazz From Hell? I love that album.


i just listened to it. Don't like the slick production, and it has the certain type of Zappa melodies I don't like. Thanks anyway for the suggestion.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> i just listened to it. Don't like the slick production, and it has the certain type of Zappa melodies I don't like. Thanks anyway for the suggestion.


No worries.  (15 characters)


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The first piece on Jazz From Hell is a beauty! Night School, and the guitar instrumental are the pieces I like best. Beltway Bandits is pretty cool too!

As far as jamming, there was more of that in the early days. And I prefer to call it improvisation because it was on a higher level than blues rock jamming a la Cream.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> The first piece on Jazz From Hell is a beauty! Night School, and the guitar instrumental are the pieces I like best. Beltway Bandits is pretty cool too!
> 
> As far as jamming, there was more of that in the early days. And I prefer to call it improvisation because it was on a higher level than blues rock jamming a la Cream.


You seem to be a huge fanboy! . Did you see Dweezil on the Hot Rats 2019 tour?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Captainnumber36 said:


> You seem to be a huge fanboy! . Did you see Dweezil on the Hot Rats 2019 tour?


I got sick just before the show so I didn't make it. And who you callin' boy? Boy!  I'm a fan of a lot of modern music in rock, jazz, and classical. For my ears Zappa is far more interesting and challenging than most artists who go on stage and play it just like the record. And who make the same sounding records one after another.

There was never anybody else in the rock world who could sit down and compose complex orchestral scores, and then strap on a guitar and play amazing rock improvisations. And entertain an audience like he could. He was a one of a kind, unique muti-talented artist.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> I got sick just before the show so I didn't make it. And who you callin' boy? Boy!  I'm a fan of a lot of modern music in rock, jazz, and classical. For my ears Zappa is far more interesting and challenging than most artists who go on stage and play it just like the record. And who make the same sounding records one after another.
> 
> There was never anybody else in the rock world who could sit down and compose complex orchestral scores, and then strap on a guitar and play amazing rock improvisations. And entertain an audience like he could. He was a one of a kind, unique muti-talented artist.


He was certainly all of that, my man! .


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

And now he's just another dead composer.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> And now he's just another dead composer.


With a huge legacy behind him.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think I grew out of Zappa once I got into Christian Vander (Magma, Offering). It seems my liking Zappa dispute his lack of class or true comic wit dwindled when I found someone about three times his power as a musician/composer (Christian Vander). There were always people like Larry Fast, Bruford from the One of a Kind days, or Steve Hackett that were as impressive rock writers, or maybe something like National Health. I loved Bongo Fury as a 14 year old but grew up. Peaches is a gorgeous song though. I'm not picking on Zappa, I have a lot less respect for rock music these days, looking at the devastation that has happened to people through drug abuse. They had nothing to feed them to get to a higher state of mind without drugs. I blame that on rock and Hollywood.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

> They had nothing to feed them to get to a higher state of mind without drugs. I blame that on rock and Hollywood.


Rock and Hollywood made people do drugs? All kinds of people take mind altering substances that have nothing to do with the entertainment world. And the jazz musicians were doing heroin way before rock. That junk was brought into the country along with LSD so the CIA could use people as guinea pigs. Just look up Sidney Gottlieb: The Poisoner In Chief, and read about it. And speaking of rock, most of the prog rock bands didn't participate in the drug culture. It's hard to play difficult music when you're stoned out of your mind. Zappa, Ian Anderson, Bruford, Hackett, Robert Fripp are sober artists. And the guys from National Health, Hatfield. All super accomplished musicians.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The joy of Frank is that there's such a huge body of work to sample and, as it's all different, there's something there for everyone.. Frank was a hugely talented and eccentric artist and whilst there is some of his music I dislike he did enough music I really like to compensate for it.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2019)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I've been listening to a lot of it lately, and am still letting it sink in. I'm not completely sold on it, but I know I appreciate the musicianship of his bands.
> 
> *But his lyrics lack class,* so I don't care for that part of it, and I don't think his compositions are all that interesting (how many does he actually have?) for the most part, and find a lot of them pretentious. Peaches is a great one, as is the last track on Hot Rats, "It Must Be A Camel" imo. Those are the only two that come to mind.
> 
> Feel free to try to sway my opinion, I'm open, I know Zappa has some fans around here.


'Class' - this old chestnut. 

Never mind. I enjoy FZ and The Mothers of Invention. I enjoyed him live in 1982 (or was it 1981?). I have five albums - _Lumpy Gravy, Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Uncle Meat, We're Only In It For The Money, Tinseltown Rebellion_, but have previously owned 3/4 more (_Grand Wazoo, Joe's Garage Pts 1 and 2... ).

_I like the satirical lyrics, the unusual treatments and time signatures, the humour, the quality of the musicianship. I dislike that he revisited some of his compositions so often, some of the more sexual/scatological story lines, his guitar solos.



regenmusic said:


> I think *I grew out of Zappa *once I got into Christian Vander (Magma, Offering). It seems my liking Zappa dispute his lack of class or true comic wit dwindled when I found someone about three times his power as a musician/composer (Christian Vander). There were always people like Larry Fast, Bruford from the One of a Kind days, or Steve Hackett that were as impressive rock writers, or maybe something like National Health. *I loved Bongo Fury as a 14 year old but grew up*. Peaches is a gorgeous song though. I'm not picking on Zappa, I have a lot less respect for rock music these days, looking at the devastation that has happened to people through drug abuse. They had nothing to feed them to get to a higher state of mind without drugs. I blame that on rock and Hollywood.


I can't disagree with your examples of National Health for example, or Bruford, but we who still like Zappa don't need to be patronised with the implication that we haven't gown up yet, thanks.


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## Faville (Sep 15, 2012)

I got turned on to Zappa in the 80s due to the hullabaloo over music censorship and the PMRC. I liked Joe's Garage and Thing-Fish for the commentary on politics, though aside from Watermelon in Easter Hay, which is one of my favorite songs of all time, I don't listen to them any more. Apostrophe/Over-nite Sensation, Uncle Meat I like well enough but don't often revisit. Broadway the Hard Way I can't stand. I don't much like his live jam stuff but I appreciate what he brings to a performance.
My very favorite Zappa albums are Jazz From Hell, Civilization Phaze III, and FZ Meets the Mothers of Prevention.

His book The Real Book is also a great read (or at least it was when I was younger).


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Yes I do! I have over 20 albums on my shelf and I even saw him live back in 1988, in my last year of high-school. Last week I got his new 73 Halloween box in the mail. EXPENSIVE...It had a Zappa Halloween outfit, mask and green gloves. I wanted to teach my music-class dressed up, but the students had an alternative day, working for charity (Norwegian tradition 31/10). My favorite albums are Roxy & Elsewhere and The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life. I saw Dweezil some years ago, playing Dad's guitar (the pimped up SG). I always felt mr. Zappa was a bit underrated as a guitar player...
ZAPPAAAAA!!!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I enjoy Zappa's music a lot. His bands were fantastic and he was a talented composer. Here's why he was never one of my favorites: Cynicism and his brand of social satire are cheap, craven, and, in the end, tiresome. If one never has the balls to sincerely express ones thoughts through words, go instrumental — "Shut up and play yer guitar!" He was stuck between two worlds and couldn't commit to either. Also, his second guitarists were always better players than he was, Vai and Belew in particular, but we never got to hear enough of them. Zappa recorded some amazing solos, but there is way too much drivel and sloppy playing (live) for my tastes. I'll always enjoy his work in small doses. Greggery Peccary is a particular favorite.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It was his band, and as good as Belew, and Vai are, I would still rather listen to Frank solo. I don't buy Zappa records to listen other guitar players soloing. And Steve Vai? He's a great guy but I don't like his music. Zappa hired him to play ensemble parts and he was great for that. If the other guys were "better" than Frank that's proof that he knows talent when he hears it. Sqeaky clean perfect rock guitar playing is pretty darn boring. That's what we had in the 80s and I'm glad it's over with. I don't believe the sloppy accusation is valid. What ends up on the records is what counts. And FZ" stuff sounds great!

The point is he loved all of kinds of music which included rock and modern orchestral. He could do both and he had an audience so he didn't need to choose. Should be have gone the "serious" composer route and spent his life dealing with the elites in the classical music business? Lots of politics and backstabbing in that world. Just ask Simon Rattle. To his credit, Alfred Brendel wrote a letter to the press defending him when members of the Berlin Philharmonic were trying to force Rattle out. But they changed their tune and are now showing him some respect.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

MacLeod said:


> 'Class' - this old chestnut.
> 
> Never mind. I enjoy FZ and The Mothers of Invention. I enjoyed him live in 1982 (or was it 1981?). I have five albums - _Lumpy Gravy, Burnt Weeny Sandwich, Uncle Meat, We're Only In It For The Money, Tinseltown Rebellion_, but have previously owned 3/4 more (_Grand Wazoo, Joe's Garage Pts 1 and 2... ).
> 
> ...


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I've liked Zappa and read one of the books he wrote (or only book) just about 8 years ago. Early Mothers is more interesting and is the last music of his that I really liked. Talking about music is often harsh work and it's hard to use exactly the right words sometimes. It was easy enough for me to like Zappa like a lot of people, I just don't feel the draw anymore and tried to put that in words.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

regenmusic said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I've liked Zappa and read one of the books he wrote (or only book) just about 8 years ago. Early Mothers is more interesting and is the last music of his that I really liked. Talking about music is often harsh work and it's hard to use exactly the right words sometimes. It was easy enough for me to like Zappa like a lot of people, I just don't feel the draw anymore and tried to put that in words.


I think it's ok to say you feel you grew out of it. Mac may just be being overly defensive about it, but I don't think you meant it in an arrogant way, and intention means everything.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

starthrower said:


> It was his band, and as good as Belew, and Vai are, I would still rather listen to Frank solo. I don't buy Zappa records to listen other guitar players soloing. And Steve Vai? He's a great guy but I don't like his music. Zappa hired him to play ensemble parts and he was great for that. If the other guys were "better" than Frank that's proof that he knows talent when he hears it. Sqeaky clean perfect rock guitar playing is pretty darn boring. That's what we had in the 80s and I'm glad it's over with. I don't believe the sloppy accusation is valid. What ends up on the records is what counts. And FZ" stuff sounds great!
> 
> The point is he loved all of kinds of music which included rock and modern orchestral. He could do both and he had an audience so he didn't need to choose. *Should be have gone the "serious" composer route and spent his life dealing with the elites in the classical music business? *Lots of politics and backstabbing in that world. Just ask Simon Rattle. To his credit, Alfred Brendel wrote a letter to the press defending him when members of the Berlin Philharmonic were trying to force Rattle out. But they changed their tune and are now showing him some respect.


No. As I said, I just find the ironic stance kind of cheap and unappealing. I like the music - well, some of it - a lot. He had a great eye for talent.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm in agreement with some of what has been said here. Zappa was undoubtedly a skilled musician, and I can enjoy much of his music, but his lyrics and musical personality are generally turn offs for me. He occasionally succeeds at being insightful in a hilarious way, but I have a difficult time getting much fulfillment out of music or art that seems too afraid or hesitant to ever attempt to be 'deep' or 'serious'.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2019)

regenmusic said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I've liked Zappa and read one of the books he wrote (or only book) just about 8 years ago. Early Mothers is more interesting and is the last music of his that I really liked. Talking about music is often harsh work and it's hard to use exactly the right words sometimes. It was easy enough for me to like Zappa like a lot of people, I just don't feel the draw anymore and tried to put that in words.


Thanks. In one sense I've "grown out of" all the music that I listened to when I first started my own collection. I bought my first three albums when I was about 11, though not my first 'second' album (that is, by the same artist) until I was 15. At that time, I would have said I had 'grown out of' that artist, but it was really only that I didn't listen to them any more as I gravitated towards others things. This process has repeated itself many times, and I've often got rid of the albums I no longer listen to. However, I'm increasingly reluctant to let my vinyl/CDs go just because I've not listened to them in ages. What I now realise is that my musical preferences are not just about what I listen to now, but what I have listened to, enjoyed and valued over time.

Consequently, though I've not listened to any of the Mothers/Zappa I own for ages - maybe a year or more - their works remain a part of my musical journey.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> . I like the music - well, some of it - a lot.


That's the main thing! I like guitarists with a personal sound like FZ, and I enjoy great ensemble playing. The lyrics were more interesting in the early days. Once he gained a certain amount of popularity and started playing arena tours, things changed.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> That's the main thing! I like guitarists with a personal sound like FZ, and I enjoy great ensemble playing. The lyrics were more interesting in the early days. Once he gained a certain amount of popularity and started playing arena tours, things changed.


I do not like some of Zappa's earlier fuzzed-out solos, when he was using a Pignose, etc.

I like it later, after Dweezil convinced him to get a rack.

I even like the sound of that Switchmaster better than the fuzzy stuff.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

starthrower said:


> That's the main thing! I like guitarists with a personal sound like FZ, and I enjoy great ensemble playing. The lyrics were more interesting in the early days. Once he gained a certain amount of popularity and started playing arena tours, things changed.


My favorite FZ band to watch is the _One Size Fits All_ ensemble, especially the LA TV performance that's the basis of that album. Some of Zappa's solos are sheer genius and they always reflect a strong musical personality. Even a "simple" blues solo like that on Cosmik Debris is like no on else's blues. And his genius for parody is wonderful too. I took Inca Roads as a parody of the Return to Forever band, although I'm not sure anyone else would agree with that. To this day I laugh every time I hear it. And those lyrics I never tire of.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Yeah, that broadcast is great to listen to and watch. His guitar tone is so good on that show. His weird, Indian influenced phrasing makes the blues solos sound more exotic. There's a scorching blues workout on the lead off track from the One Shot Deal CD. It's called Bathtub Man. A comical number with Duke, and Nappy Brock.


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

No doubt FZ was interesting. I have always categorized his music in three ways. 1. Brilliant 2. Funny or 3. Just plain crap/nonsense. Maybe throw "pretentious" into that third category.

His talent is unmistakable and I do believe he is one of the most underrated guitarists of all time (Put Alex Lifeson & Prince into that "underrated" category as well). I mean underrated in the "general Public" sense. Musicians know how great these guitarists were/are. I thought the comment that FZ was stuck between two worlds but not comfortable in either was excellent.

I have a lot of respect for much of his work and who he was, but didn't like everything he did.

V


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm bumping this thread for more discussion. I am more and more convinced Zappa is not to my taste!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Varick said:


> I thought the comment that FZ was stuck between two worlds but not comfortable in either was excellent.


What worlds are you referring to? As far as the music is concerned the results tell me he was perfectly comfortable with any genre of music with the exception of playing guitar over changes like a jazz musician.

I think Captain 36 is uncomfortable deciding what music he wants to enjoy. He's started threads about how he doesn't like Mozart, and how he does like Mozart. And the same for Zappa. We're free to pick and choose. I like a bit of Mozart but I could do without much of it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> What worlds are you referring to? As far as the music is concerned the results tell me he was perfectly comfortable with any genre of music with the exception of playing guitar over changes like a jazz musician.
> 
> I think Captain 36 is uncomfortable deciding what music he wants to enjoy. He's started threads about how he doesn't like Mozart, and how he does like Mozart. And the same for Zappa. We're free to pick and choose. I like a bit of Mozart but I could do without much of it.


I'm learning and growing. It's just a matter of allowing myself to like what I like, I don't know why I make it so hard for myself.

I do enjoy aspects of Zappa, but as a whole package, I can do without it.


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## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

starthrower said:


> What worlds are you referring to? As far as the music is concerned the results tell me he was perfectly comfortable with any genre of music with the exception of playing guitar over changes like a jazz musician.
> 
> I think Captain 36 is uncomfortable deciding what music he wants to enjoy. He's started threads about how he doesn't like Mozart, and how he does like Mozart. And the same for Zappa. We're free to pick and choose. I like a bit of Mozart but I could do without much of it.


As far as the worlds, I'd say between pop and composing.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

FZ was asked that question. He said writing a pop song was like building a Taco Bell. And composing orchestral music is more akin to building a cathedral. Meaning to say he might spend months on a complicated orchestral score but he could write a pop song in ten minutes. But he also noted that both genrrs present their unique set of challenges.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Zappa: an honest critical approach from a true fan & follower

(You can do this sort of assessment when you get older and have done it to yourself)

Frank Zappa was approaching 30 when the "hippie" movement hit, and he had already tried to get into the Hollywood soundtrack scene. I remember seeing his ads for Hagstrom guitars in Hit Parader magazine, so he knew how to promote.

He was really from the preceding generation of the hippies, more beatnik (he liked Lenny Bruce), and was really "an old man" by comparison.

I do agree that his song lyrics are weak; no poeticism. He wrote good music, although some of the melodies and themes (like _Oh No_) still sound like he was trying to write a soundtrack.

200 Motels has some of his best music, but I couldn't stand the movie (bad quality video transfer), and the audio recording was not the highest quality.

I see what is meant by "Coercing" good instrumental music out of him: Uncle Meat contained sections of brilliance, but was too full of talking and edits.

Hot Rats was the next taste, and he should have done more of this earlier, but I think he didn't want to alienate the rock fans, so we got stuck with boring jams like "Willie the Pimp" with Zappa's fuzzed-out sound and Sugarcane Harris' horribly thin & trebly piezo-equipped violin.

I think the first album I really liked all the way was "Burnt Weenie Sandwich."

I noticed that Zappa lost some of his following the further he went; some of the sexual references in songs like _Dynah-Mo Hum_ and _Bobby Brown Goes Down_ were simply in bad taste, revealing Zappa as a kind of "dirty old man," and somewhat of a homophobe. You know, that "older generation" thing.

He reached his "commercial apex" with _Montana, The Slime,_ and _Valley Girl. _But by this time, his rock was becoming "old school," and alienated from punk and glam. The albums Waka/Jawaka revealed him as a jazzer.
After this phase, He had no choice but to delve further into his soundtrack/orchestral side.

As a true fan, I stuck with Zappa all the way. But now I see that he wasn't perfect, and I tire of hearing unfiltered praise without criticism; like him, I am a realist.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

That's more to do with his personality than age. He was a nuts & bolts scientifically minded individual who was a skeptic. To his mind the hippie movement was a product of naivete.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> That's more to do with his personality than age. He was a nuts & bolts scientifically minded individual who was a skeptic. To his mind the hippie movement was a product of naivete.


The hippie movement was anti-war. What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding? I think it had just as much, if not more, to do with his age.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

No, he viewed the hippie strategy as naive. He stated his philosophy about this and that the only way to change things is to infiltrate the political system with people of integrity whose collective objective is to challenge and overturn the system. You can't do this without power. Real political power, not flower power. There's a 1974 interview on YouTube where he talks about this. It's the one where he is wearing a dark yellow T-shirt and smoking a cigarette as he always did. Unfortunately this never happened. The hippies grew up and became part of the system.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> No, he viewed the hippie strategy as naive. He stated his philosophy about this and that the only way to change things is to infiltrate the political system with people of integrity whose collective objective is to challenge and overturn the system. You can't do this without power. Real political power, not flower power. There's a 1974 interview on YouTube where he talks about this. It's the one where he is wearing a dark yellow T-shirt and smoking a cigarette as he always did. Unfortunately this never happened. The hippies grew up and became part of the system.


What are you disagreeing with? I never said Zappa was a hippie; I was defending the hippie movement, because it was aligned with anti-war. You should read some old volumes of the Co-Evolutionary Quarterly, for more of an appreciation. What has your generation contributed to anything?
Zappa was older than the hippies anyway. That contributes to his detached, sarcastic outlook. Apparently Dweezil has inherited this superior attitude, and Steve Jones sussed it out on Jonesey's Jukebox.
Zappa was Los-Angeles based (after he tried New York), and he never liked the San Francisco scene. Anyway, what does it matter? He went off to Europe all the time anyway.

The hippies grew up and became part of the system? you make it sound like they became right-wing. As soon as cannabis gets legalized, that's _real_ flower power.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'm learning and growing. It's just a matter of allowing myself to like what I like, I don't know why I make it so hard for myself.
> 
> I do enjoy aspects of Zappa, but as a whole package, I can do without it.


So....does continued listening to FZ constitute artistic masochism?


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## Tikoo Tuba (Oct 15, 2018)

I attended a Dweezil show . For an hour the band reproduced Frank songs note for note , but then they switched to Dweezil tunes ... after one of those it was time to go . It was apparent he had adopted Dad's compositional technique of derivative cut-and-paste , oh , although weirdly and rudely to the spirit . Dweezil's music seemed low and ornery . "Don't go away mad , just go away ... "


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> What are you disagreeing with? I never said Zappa was a hippie; I was defending the hippie movement, because it was aligned with anti-war. You should read some old volumes of the Co-Evolutionary Quarterly, for more of an appreciation. What has your generation contributed to anything?
> Zappa was older than the hippies anyway. That contributes to his detached, sarcastic outlook. Apparently Dweezil has inherited this superior attitude, and Steve Jones sussed it out on Jonesey's Jukebox.
> Zappa was Los-Angeles based (after he tried New York), and he never liked the San Francisco scene. Anyway, what does it matter? He went off to Europe all the time anyway.


I never said you said he was a hippie. That's pretty obvious. Maybe you need to reread what I wrote. I said his stance was not due to his age. And he was not detached from what was going on politically. I'm not going to re-state what is already in my previous post. And as far as my generation is concerned, you don't even know my age. What defines a hippie? Thousands of young college aged people were opposed to the war. They were not all pot smoking, acid dropping hippies listening to Donovan or the Grateful Dead. And many people a bit older were also opposed to the Vietnam war. Martin Luther King, for example. Was he a hippie? Or how about Harry Belafonte? Or The Fugs?


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

As far as them pop songs, he would come up with a simple ditty like Flower Punk. It makes fun of Hey Joe. Yet, he puts in a complex rhythms as far as a pop song goes. It has, I think, two quarter notes and triplet in each measure.





simialrly this, an arrangement for piano






this was composed on Synclavier so Frank did not have to play 2 handed piano himself


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

Another early piece that does not fir any pop song format. He was then just barely into the avant garde/jazz albums era.





this is a song that has both vocal and intrumental versions. I find that easy to follow as I know the lyrics. He didn't write that in 10 minutes other than the main riff.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I never said you said he was a hippie. That's pretty obvious. Maybe you need to reread what I wrote.


I was merely defending the hippies.



> I said his stance was not due to his age.


I think his older age had a lot to do with his success.



> And he was not detached from what was going on politically.


I didn't say that he was detached politically. I said his general attitude was detached and sarcastic, such as his view of the hippies.



> Thousands of young college aged people were opposed to the war. They were not all pot smoking, acid dropping hippies listening to Donovan or the Grateful Dead. And many people a bit older were also opposed to the Vietnam war. Martin Luther King, for example. Was he a hippie? Or how about Harry Belafonte? Or The Fugs?


I defended the hippies, because they were anti-war.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I think sceptical is a better term for his attitude. He believed in some of the same things as the hippies but he was opposed to their strategies he which viewed as naive. If you want change you have to organize and get politically active and get the right people elected to positions of power who will fight for policies that benefit working people. And anybody can get involved whether you're a hippie or a housewife. Which is why Zappa was encouraging voter registration during his concert tours. And it went farther than that. They actually helped people get registered at each show.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

Frank did not believe any woo, all the beliefs of "natural" and what not, and any naive political stances. So most of these things were seen just as trends and fashions. As soon as hippies appeared, he saw the record industry was going to package and sell it.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> I think sceptical is a better term for his attitude. He believed in some of the same things as the hippies but he was opposed to their strategies he which viewed as naive. If you want change you have to organize and get politically active and get the right people elected to positions of power who will fight for policies that benefit working people. And anybody can get involved whether you're a hippie or a housewife. Which is why Zappa was encouraging voter registration during his concert tours. And it went farther than that. They actually helped people get registered at each show.


I have some news for all the skeptics: hippies were not just a trend; they were an actual social movement. They evolved from the beat generation (remember Ken Kesey and his Merry Pranksters).

That aside, in Zappa's generation there really was no option to "drop out" of society; you had to get a job & go to work. He was a graphic artist for a while.

This is the main reason Zappa was skeptical; he knew there was "no escape" from society.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

The Hippie movement is long dead. The fascists are in power and burning a destructive path with their scorched Earth policies and stock market greed. And rebuilding of nuclear arsenals. Where is the grass roots resistance today? It's nothing like it was 45-50 years ago. What artists are mobilizing young people to resist this nihilism?

The person most committed to resistance and speaking out against this insanity is an independent journalist and author, Chris Hedges. You can read his books or listen to any of dozens of lectures on YouTube. He is incredibly smart and we'll read, and he is a veteran war correspondent who speaks Arabic. He knows what he's talking about.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

starthrower said:


> The Hippie movement is long dead. The fascists are in power and burning a destructive path with their scorched Earth policies and stock market greed. And rebuilding of nuclear arsenals. Where is the grass roots resistance today? It's nothing like it was 45-50 years ago. What artists are mobilizing young people to resist this nihilism?
> 
> The person most committed to resistance and speaking out against this insanity is an independent journalist and author, Chris Hedges. You can read his books or listen to any of dozens of lectures on YouTube. He is incredibly smart and we'll read, and he is a veteran war correspondent who speaks Arabic. He knows what he's talking about.


You sound more like a hippie all the time. Talk about political correctness and soft liberalism. Who are you going to vote for, Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

millionrainbows said:


> You sound more like a hippie all the time. Talk about political correctness and soft liberalism. Who are you going to vote for, Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders?


Is hippie synonymous with integrity and a desire to preserve our democratic republic? I'd call it common sense. Bernie is the only grass Roots candidate. But the corrupt DNC would like to buy my vote with this bloated billionaire, Michael Bloomberg. No thanks!

Slapping labels on voters and citizens is pretty simplistic don't you think? You're the intellectual. Nobody uses labels like hippie anymore unless they are talking about Woodstock. But this thread was supposed to be about Zappa. You know, the conservative businessman/composer who only looked like a hippie.


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