# The Beethoven Variations



## caters

This is my second attempt at doing a Theme and Variations. With my first attempt, I used the A minor section of Rondo Alla Turka. But I didn't get very far with it. So this time I'm taking a different theme as my original theme and I'm varying it. It is the most well known theme in existence. Yes, the original theme that I'm varying is the first theme of Beethoven's fifth.

So far I've come up with these ideas on how to vary it:


Fugue(this is probably going to be the hardest variation, so why not just get over it now and do the easier variations later)
Triple meter
Major key
But I think that it deserves like 12 variations(also 12 is the most common number of variations I see in a Theme and Variations followed closely by 9).

I'm not even sure if it is possible to marchify the theme, given that it is already in 2/4 time. To make it easier on myself, I went for a string quartet arrangement of Beethoven's fifth instead of the full orchestra version that Beethoven himself composed. Do you have any ideas as to how I could vary the theme?

Here is the score as it is right now. I will update this later when I have more variations. Anyway, here is the score:

https://musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5662044


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## Schoenberg

I don't recommend having the fugue as the first variation, perhaps as one of the later variations. I also don't recommend writing out a full fugue, rather a fughetto as a full fugue will be too long for a single variation.

For the first variation I recommend having just a simple variation of the theme as an introductory variation, then continuing on from there. First variations usually have the purpose of driving the music forward after the original theme, for example the first variation of the goldbergs which is much faster than the aria, and and the first variation of the 3rd movement of Beethoven's 30th sonata which seems more urgent and more forward driven then the previous movement. The first movement should be simple as to provide a clear connection from the original work to the variations. For example, in the Goldberg variations it would be incredibly awkward for say the 25th or 26th variations to be the first as they are too detached from the original theme.

Connection is also important for all the other variations as well. You shouldn't just put the variations in a random order, they should have a clear connection. In the Goldberg variations, each variation is clearly led on from the next, and the final variation, the quodlibet acts as a grand conclusion of the variations, and also leads into the original aria.


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## caters

Schoenberg said:


> I don't recommend having the fugue as the first variation, perhaps as one of the later variations. I also don't recommend writing out a full fugue, rather a fughetto as a full fugue will be too long for a single variation.
> 
> For the first variation I recommend having just a simple variation of the theme as an introductory variation, then continuing on from there. First variations usually have the purpose of driving the music forward after the original theme, for example the first variation of the goldbergs which is much faster than the aria, and and the first variation of the 3rd movement of Beethoven's 30th sonata which seems more urgent and more forward driven then the previous movement. The first movement should be simple as to provide a clear connection from the original work to the variations. For example, in the Goldberg variations it would be incredibly awkward for say the 25th or 26th variations to be the first as they are too detached from the original theme.
> 
> Connection is also important for all the other variations as well. You shouldn't just put the variations in a random order, they should have a clear connection. In the Goldberg variations, each variation is clearly led on from the next, and the final variation, the quodlibet acts as a grand conclusion of the variations, and also leads into the original aria.


Yeah, well, I didn't mean to imply that the fugue variation would be the first variation once I finished all the variations, it most likely wouldn't. But it is the first one that I started working on, just to get rid of the burden of the fugue before doing the other variations. You said that the first variation is often a faster version of the original theme. Um, how would that work if the original theme is already on the fast end of Allegro? The most frequent way I see a speed up in variations is increasing rhythmic intensity, like eighths becoming sixteenths for example.






This shows what I mean, the first 2 variations that Mozart wrote here both have 1 part at original speed and the other being intensified. Here is what Mozart does to vary the theme:


*Variation**Bass**Melody**Dynamic**Tempo**Rhythm**Other*Variation INormal speedQuarter notes become sixteenthsQuieterNo changeNo changeVariation IIQuarter notes become sixteenthsNormal speedCloser to originalNo changeNo changeVariation IIIOriginal speedTriplets instead of sixteenthsGetting louderNo changeTriple meter feelVariation IVTripletsOriginal speedMore variableNo changeStill triple meter feelVariation VOff the beat on beat 1Off the beat on beat 2VariableNo changeFeels slower because of syncopationVariation VIIntensified in A section, staccato in B sectionStacatto in A section, intensified in B sectionMore variable than Variation IVNo changeBack to on the beatVariation VIIBack to quarter notesKeeps the rhythmic intensityLouderNo changeNo changeVariation VIIIMore melodic in natureRhythmic slowdownQuieterSlowerSlowerModulated to parallel minorVariation IXBack to quarter notesBack to quarter notesA bit louderOriginal tempoOriginal speedModulated back to parallel major, poco ritard at the endVariation XOriginal speedOff the beat sixteenthsLouderNo changeIntensifiedVariation XIMore melodicA bit elaborated but not muchQuieterMuch slowerIntensity is down a littleVariation XIIConstant sixteenthsLots of ornamentationsLoudMuch fasterIntenseTime signature changed, longest of them all

But the theme that I am basing my theme and variations off of, the first theme of Beethoven's fifth, is already intense, both dynamically and rhythmically, what with the constant presence of the Fate Motif and the tempo being on the fast end of Allegro. It isn't like the theme Mozart used in my example, which was slow and nocturnal feeling. It is much easier to intensify a nocturnal theme than it is to intensify an already intense theme.


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## Mandryka

Neither of these points is right for the thread, so if there's a response it's probably best to put it somewhere else. It's just that I was taken aback by these ideas.



Schoenberg said:


> the first variation of the goldbergs which is much faster than the aria,
> 
> ,


Are you sure about that? I mean I know that some people take it faster, but some people don't.



Schoenberg said:


> In the Goldberg variations, each variation is clearly led on from the next


Can you spell it out?


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> Are you sure about that? I mean I know that some people take it faster, but some people don't.


Interesting in this context. However I think that the error most people do isn't to play the first variation too fast but to play the Aria too slow.


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## EdwardBast

caters said:


> This is my second attempt at doing a Theme and Variations. With my first attempt, I used the A minor section of Rondo Alla Turka. But I didn't get very far with it. So this time I'm taking a different theme as my original theme and I'm varying it. It is the most well known theme in existence. Yes, the original theme that I'm varying is the first theme of Beethoven's fifth.
> 
> So far I've come up with these ideas on how to vary it:
> 
> 
> Fugue(this is probably going to be the hardest variation, so why not just get over it now and do the easier variations later)
> Triple meter
> Major key
> But I think that it deserves like 12 variations(also 12 is the most common number of variations I see in a Theme and Variations followed closely by 9).
> 
> I'm not even sure if it is possible to marchify the theme, given that it is already in 2/4 time. To make it easier on myself, I went for a string quartet arrangement of Beethoven's fifth instead of the full orchestra version that Beethoven himself composed. Do you have any ideas as to how I could vary the theme?
> 
> Here is the score as it is right now. I will update this later when I have more variations. Anyway, here is the score:
> 
> https://musescore.com/user/50070/scores/5662044


I think the first theme of Beethoven's Fifth is a really bad choice for a theme and variations. I know no other set of variations on a theme of this type. It is too strong, too distinctive, too motivically based, and too well known. Its principal characteristics include rhythmic intensification and motivic foreshortening, which is not conducive to variation treatment.

I think you should do a careful survey of other sets of variations to see what kinds of themes tend to work well in this genre and which don't. Then pick a more promising theme. Then *actually write some music* before producing a detailed description of prospective variations.


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## caters

EdwardBast said:


> I think the first theme of Beethoven's Fifth is a really bad choice for a theme and variations. I know no other set of variations on a theme of this type. It is too strong, too distinctive, too motivically based, and too well known. Its principal characteristics include rhythmic intensification and motivic foreshortening, which is not conducive to variation treatment.
> 
> I think you should do a careful survey of other sets of variations to see what kinds of themes tend to work well in this genre and which don't. Then pick a more promising theme. Then *actually write some music* before producing a detailed description of prospective variations.


Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is well known in the English speaking world, it is motivically based both in the bass and the melody, and the original lyrics are well known in France, and it likely was very well known in Mozart's time, but Mozart wrote a Theme and Variations based on it anyway. So clearly, a theme being well known doesn't mean that a Theme and Variations based on that theme will be dismissed by others or that it is a bad idea.

And it is very typical for the Theme in a Theme and Variations to not be from the same composer as the Variations part of it. So nothing says that I can't do a Theme and Variations on Beethoven's fifth and be successful at it. The only thing I have noticed in common in between the Goldberg Variations by Bach, 12 Variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star by Mozart, and the fourth movements of the Eroica and Choral symphonies by Beethoven, all of which are in Theme and Variations form, is melodic simplicity in the theme that is varied.

I haven't seen any rhythmic or motivic similarities. Some like Mozart's are very much motivically based, whereas others like Bach's Goldberg Variations are more contrapuntal than anything else. And still others like the fourth movement of the Eroica symphony start with the skeleton of the melody and only have the full melody in all its complexity show up later on. You could argue that that is what happens with the Choral symphony as well.

And to further justify my point, here is why I went with a string quartet for my Theme and Variations instead of a Full Orchestra(original instrumentation) or Solo Piano(most common instrumentation for Theme and Variations:


*Instrumentation**Pros**Cons*Full OrchestraObviously the classic Beethoven's fifth sound, More routes of variation(strings vs woodwinds, etc.)Cutting off the orchestra at the Bb chord that ends the first theme sounds wrongString QuartetDon't have to worry about instruments getting overwhelmed, Still gets the essence of the orchestra across, Still more routes of variation, though not as many as with the orchestraLess full texture in the fortissimo(though, you could also think of this as a blessing, since there is more room for the instruments to stand out than there is in an orchestra)Solo PianoJumps in the bass motion aren't as hard, Solo piano is the quintessential instrumentation for most Theme and Variations piecesA piano transcription of Beethoven's fifth is already hard to play, can you imagine even harder variations on top of that

So because I'm not going with Solo Piano, I have more variation routes than I would for a Solo Piano piece. And because I'm not going full orchestra, I don't have to worry that say the woodwinds will get overwhelmed in a fortissimo moment or whatever.


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## Bwv 1080

No one wants to listen to the theme from LvBs 5th in anything other than LvBs 5th. 
Although there was this:


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## caters

Bwv 1080 said:


> No one wants to listen to the theme from LvBs 5th in anything other than LvBs 5th.
> Although there was this:


Than, they are being too close minded about Beethoven. Every composer after Beethoven has either borrowed from Beethoven or at least been influenced by him. It isn't that it isn't a good idea to base a Theme and Variations off of the first theme of Beethoven's fifth, it is them being too close minded about Beethoven, and especially Beethoven's fifth.


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## EdwardBast

caters said:


> Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is well known in the English speaking world, it is motivically based both in the bass and the melody, and the original lyrics are well known in France, and it likely was very well known in Mozart's time, but Mozart wrote a Theme and Variations based on it anyway. So clearly, a theme being well known doesn't mean that a Theme and Variations based on that theme will be dismissed by others or that it is a bad idea.
> 
> And it is very typical for the Theme in a Theme and Variations to not be from the same composer as the Variations part of it. So nothing says that I can't do a Theme and Variations on Beethoven's fifth and be successful at it. The only thing I have noticed in common in between the Goldberg Variations by Bach, 12 Variations on Twinkle Twinkle Little Star by Mozart, and the fourth movements of the Eroica and Choral symphonies by Beethoven, all of which are in Theme and Variations form, is melodic simplicity in the theme that is varied.
> 
> I haven't seen any rhythmic or motivic similarities. Some like Mozart's are very much motivically based, whereas others like Bach's Goldberg Variations are more contrapuntal than anything else. And still others like the fourth movement of the Eroica symphony start with the skeleton of the melody and only have the full melody in all its complexity show up later on. You could argue that that is what happens with the Choral symphony as well.
> 
> And to further justify my point, here is why I went with a string quartet for my Theme and Variations instead of a Full Orchestra(original instrumentation) or Solo Piano(most common instrumentation for Theme and Variations:
> 
> 
> *Instrumentation**Pros**Cons*Full OrchestraObviously the classic Beethoven's fifth sound, More routes of variation(strings vs woodwinds, etc.)Cutting off the orchestra at the Bb chord that ends the first theme sounds wrongString QuartetDon't have to worry about instruments getting overwhelmed, Still gets the essence of the orchestra across, Still more routes of variation, though not as many as with the orchestraLess full texture in the fortissimo(though, you could also think of this as a blessing, since there is more room for the instruments to stand out than there is in an orchestra)Solo PianoJumps in the bass motion aren't as hard, Solo piano is the quintessential instrumentation for most Theme and Variations piecesA piano transcription of Beethoven's fifth is already hard to play, can you imagine even harder variations on top of that
> 
> So because I'm not going with Solo Piano, I have more variation routes than I would for a Solo Piano piece. And because I'm not going full orchestra, I don't have to worry that say the woodwinds will get overwhelmed in a fortissimo moment or whatever.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say. More elaborate planning and argument ^ ^ ^ won't make the case. How about you write some music and make the plans work, then we'll talk about it?


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## hammeredklavier

caters said:


> Fugue(this is probably going to be the hardest variation, so why not just get over it now and do the easier variations later)


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## caters

hammeredklavier said:


>


Yes, that fugue has been mentioned to me multiple times when I talk about turning Beethoven's fifth into a fugue due to the similarities in Bach's subject and Beethoven's Fate Motive, and I am thinking of making the fugue stretto heavy instead of trying to incorporate the entire first theme into the fugue. I just have to figure out which strettos are better than others before I can decide on what strettos to use, so I'm making a stretto table for the subject, and I might also include the inverted subject in my stretto table(after all, Beethoven himself does use a not quite exact inversion of the Fate Motive in his symphony as part of the bass line). The fact that Beethoven's fifth has descending thirds in its motive makes it trickier than Bach's subject with the descending fifth, but certainly not impossible.


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