# TS Elliot on Poetry: Applicable to Music



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

So we have lots of musical-philosophical discussions here about subjectivity/objectivity, and we seem to come to similar conclusions every time. It's a perennial discussion that everyone wants to talk about, and we still come to the same conclusions. I've seen dozens of threads all on the same things. But oddly enough, we come to it analogously, that is, we just come to conclusions without wondering, hey, maybe someone 80 years ago already had the same conclusions written out in a much clearer manner, only he spoke of it in a different genre, namely poetry... doh!

One of my favorite quotes from the essay:


> And I hinted, by an analogy, that the mind of the mature poet differs from that of the immature one not precisely in any valuation of "personality," not being necessarily more interesting, or having "more to say," but rather by being a more finely perfected medium in which special, or very varied, feelings are at liberty to enter into new combinations.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2013)

H,

Your favorite quote from Eliot's essay (one el) does not obviously match your paragraph.

Perhaps another quote would do?

The only thing they seem to have in common is the word "analogous," and I am puzzled by the way you used it yourself. (It does not mean "coming to conclusions without thinking that others may have come to the same ones."

Anyway, as an old English teacher and a poet, I'm interested in Mr. Eliot and in what you got from him that you think applies to music.


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I find it hard to agree that it's just craft, some do have more to say in art, just like some have more to say in forums or life in general I suppose. Craft and content can be related, the content can give impetus to better craft and communication.


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Hey Huilunsioittaja,

Can you share a link to the essay, please? :tiphat:


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

By immature he likely means a poet starting out. And it's true that a poet at the start might have ideas but not be able to communicate them as well as later.


----------



## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

starry said:


> By immature he likely means a poet starting out. And it's true that a poet at the start might have ideas but not be able to communicate them as well as later.


Sorry starry, I edited my post and I think that's what you were replying to. I was wondering about the words _mature _and _immature_, and I see Eliot hasn't reduced them to "personality". I'm often at a loss as to the use of these words when applied to people. I know, they're often used to signify a lack of restraint, a childishness, or else its opposite, but they seem unsatisfactory to me.

And I think his use of them above seems unsatisfactory to me also. This is why I'd love to scan the whole essay and get a bigger picture...


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Kieran said:


> Hey Huilunsioittaja,
> 
> Can you share a link to the essay, please? :tiphat:


Click my paragraph!

@someguy, if there was anything I learned from my past biology class about Evolution, I learned of the idea "analogous evolution." When one uses the word "analogous" in talking about evolution, they're talking about how 2 complete separate species of creatures end up having a similar characteristic. For example, birds and dragonflies, squids (beaks) and birds. They did not receive their characteristics (wings or beaks) because they are closely related (in fact they almost couldn't be farther when it comes to animalia), but because of simply how they developed in their environment, and that it was a natural characteristic to develop. I understand people that don't comprehend "analogous" the way I do, and so what _I_ mean is coming to the same conclusion from a different perspective.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

some guy said:


> Anyway, as an old English teacher and a poet, I'm interested in Mr. Eliot and in what you got from him that you think applies to music.


This essay talks not only of how poets ought to think of themselves, but also what people ought to think of poets. I hesitate to quote so I don't take things out of context too much, because I would prefer people to read the whole thing. But what I noticed was this is exactly what's applicable to _our _understanding of music vs. composers and tradition vs. innovation.

I'll give context to the original quote I posted:


> Honest criticism and sensitive appreciation is directed not upon the poet but upon the poetry. If we attend to the confused cries of the newspaper critics and the susurrus of popular repetition that follows, we shall hear the names of poets in great numbers; if we seek not Blue-book knowledge but the enjoyment of poetry, and ask for a poem, we shall seldom find it. In the last article I tried to point out the importance of the relation of the poem to other poems by other authors, and suggested the conception of poetry as a living whole of all the poetry that has ever been written. The other aspect of this Impersonal theory of poetry is the relation of the poem to its author. And I hinted, by an analogy, that the mind of the mature poet differs from that of the immature one not precisely in any valuation of "personality," not being necessarily more interesting, or having "more to say," but rather by being a more finely perfected medium in which special, or very varied, feelings are at liberty to enter into new combinations.


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

*the importance of the relation of the poem to other poems by other authors*

Yes this is pretty much what I say in relation to music. Unfortunately people don't want to do that though, and seek the quick 'ask for a poem' option, which isn't something that brings true enjoyment as Eliot says. Not that most people care of course.


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

That's a fabulous essay, Huilunsoittaja--and a great case for treating poetry and music on their own terms. Out of curiosity, have you read The Four Quartets? I just gave that a read after hearing Gubaidulina's setting of it to music (which is great, by the way). It would be interesting to know if she's written anything about Eliot's influence on her.


----------

