# What's the meaning of "good musical taste" in classical (or any) music?



## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

There are people who spend their whole lives dedicated to music, bless them. Be that as a performer or as a teacher or as an artist or some combination of all. Today we might agree that having good taste in music is subjective. At some stage however, a child would not necessarily be warranted as having good taste or bad taste in music because the child is a child. At some stage therefore, one finds it applicable to say "person A has good taste because ...." as that person is no longer a child. So at the outset, there is already a point in time when a person has developed some sense of musical taste or preference, presumably when the person is old enough.

So is age the only thing that matters when someone is taken seriously who comments about the musical taste of others and or herself? What about one's background, education, listening experience? On background, let's say for example an individual is from a country where there is little to no classical music anywhere for whatever reason, is that person's taste suddenly acquired? If not, then how long does it take?

Or does taste have zero meaning? Whatever your genre is, for those that listen to that type of music, you are bound to be considered to have good taste by them.

Which is it?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

"Good musical taste" means nothing. It's an individual thing, and I'll leave it at that.


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

Bulldog said:


> "Good musical taste" means nothing. It's an individual thing, and I'll leave it at that.


So how would you respond (if at all) to a casual conversation when someone says you have good musical taste?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Good musical taste is what I have and very few others share!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BeatriceB said:


> So how would you respond (if at all) to a casual conversation when someone says you have good musical taste?


Assuming I was in a sociable mood, I'd say "Thanks, you do also".


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> Good musical taste is what I have and very few others share!


That would be good to know what is it about your taste though.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Apparently, it's what my ex-boss's wife says that I have and he doesn't.

Awkward.


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

Chilham said:


> Apparently, it's what my ex-boss's wife says that I have and he doesn't.
> 
> Awkward.


Hopefully that helped with getting a promotion


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

[Insert comment about objectivity vs. subjectivity here.]


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't know, but I know it when I hear it.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Interesting topic. And welcome to TalkClassical.

My interests in 18th century philosophy, arts, letters, politics continue to offer a more balanced approached to questions raised then and today. The great Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote: "It is natural for us to seek a Standard of Taste .... a rule by which the various sentiments of men may be reconciled; at least, a decision, afforded, confirming one sentiment, and condemning another." Basically what Hume was leaning to was that certain people were in better position to judge because they have "delicate sentiment, improved by practice" who could decide, "the true standard of taste and beauty". Today I see "improved by practice" as one being improved upon by education, cultured exposure, learning, practice and experience in our society. I feel most comfortable today with such sensibilities in my back pocket to reach to.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

I do not know. In the past when I tried to answer this question I was accused of being an elitist.


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

arpeggio said:


> I do not know. In the past when I tried to answer this question I was accused of being an elitist.


Don't let other people pull you down for stating what you believe in.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

BeatriceB said:


> Or does taste have zero meaning? Whatever your genre is, for those that listen to that type of music, you are bound to be considered to have good taste by them.


I think that is it exactly. Everyone likes to think they have good musical taste, so it comes down to "if you listen to the kind of music I listen to, then you have good musical taste."

Although maybe there are certain genre that just cannot be thought of as in good taste, Death Metal perhaps. Proponents of such genre may not even consider it in good taste, or even care about good taste. Some, perhaps even in reaction against the idea of good taste.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

"Good taste" is a way for elitist snobs to put down people they think are beneath them.

Good taste: the Kentucky Derby. Bad taste: NASCAR
Good taste: 20 year old bourbon. Bad taste: Coors Beer
Good taste: PBS. Bad Taste: CMT
Good taste: Chicken Kiev. Bad taste: Big Mac
Good taste: Mozart. Bad taste: Rubinstein
Good taste: La Traviata. Bad taste: Le grand macabre

To each his own. Do I think some people have bad taste in music? Absolutely - anyone who likes Slim Whitman for example. But of course people think I have bad taste in music since I can't tolerate modern Rap or Hip Hop.


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

SixFootScowl said:


> I think that is it exactly. Everyone likes to think they have good musical taste, so it comes down to "if you listen to the kind of music I listen to, then you have good musical taste."
> 
> Although maybe there are certain genre that just cannot be thought of as in good taste, Death Metal perhaps. Proponents of such genre may not even consider it in good taste, or even care about good taste. Some, perhaps even in reaction against the idea of good taste.


That's right, the idea of having "bad taste" might even be desirable or at least in the sense of rebelling or having taste that is different and seen to be cool ("I get it, but you don't....").


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

SixFootScowl said:


> I think that is it exactly. Everyone likes to think they have good musical taste, so it comes down to "if you listen to the kind of music I listen to, then you have good musical taste."
> 
> Although maybe there are certain genre that just cannot be thought of as in good taste, *Death Metal perhaps*. Proponents of such genre may not even consider it in good taste, or even care about good taste. Some, perhaps even in reaction against the idea of good taste.


Actually, there are many underground metal snobs, who view a big difference between quality and generic death and black metal.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Good musical taste is what I have and very few others share!


nope, good taste is when you take only what's best.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> To each his own. Do I think some people have bad taste in music? Absolutely - anyone who likes Slim Whitman for example. But of course people think I have bad taste in music since I can't tolerate modern Rap or Hip Hop.


Never heard of Slim Whitman, but a quick search and a video tells me he is not that bad. Though I won't be buying any of his records.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

BeatriceB said:


> ("I get it, but you don't....").


but it works the other way around... those, who seen the light and now are in good taste, get apalled by the rest of the world that isn't and goes with junk stuff on towards its doom.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I once saw a bumper sticker on a car that said "I HATE THE MUSIC YOU LISTEN TO."


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

best things are stashed away.

worst ones are scattered all around.

so bad taste is easy to fall for.


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## ThankYouKiwi (May 2, 2021)

Having good musical taste is being open to anything, and not assuming anything about music you haven't heard.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

they say 'live and let live' huh...

while to grow a bed of roses one needs to root up the weeds.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

ThankYouKiwi said:


> Having good musical taste is being open to anything,


wasting one's life on "anything" is not an option...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ArtMusic said:


> Interesting topic. And welcome to TalkClassical.
> 
> My interests in 18th century philosophy, arts, letters, politics continue to offer a more balanced approached to questions raised then and today. The great Scottish philosopher David Hume wrote: "It is natural for us to seek a Standard of Taste .... a rule by which the various sentiments of men may be reconciled; at least, a decision, afforded, confirming one sentiment, and condemning another." Basically what Hume was leaning to was that certain people were in better position to judge because they have "delicate sentiment, improved by practice" who could decide, "the true standard of taste and beauty". Today I see "improved by practice" as one being improved upon by education, cultured exposure, learning, practice and experience in our society. I feel most comfortable today with such sensibilities in my back pocket to reach to.


Do you think Hume was confusing bad taste and bad judgement? Or even bad taste and misperception?

Hume famously commented that " Tis not unreasonable for me to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger." Did he think it is unreasonable to prefer any one piece of music over another? If so, why is there such a fundamental difference between ethics (judgements about quality of action) and aesthetics (judgements about quality of form) ? What do you think?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Do you think Hume was confusing bad taste and bad judgement? Or even bad taste and misperception?
> 
> Hume famously commented that " Tis not unreasonable for me to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger." Did he think it is unreasonable to prefer any one piece of music over another? If so, why is there such a fundamental difference between ethics (judgements about quality of action) and aesthetics (judgements about quality of form) ? What do you think?


I'm not sure I shall have to think about that quote.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

_*What's the meaning of "good musical taste" in classical (or any) music?*_

Woodwinds (clarinets, oboes, bassoons) taste better than brass instruments (trumpets, French horns, trombones). I've never eaten a piano, but I'll contend the guitar has a poignant, aromatic flavor that lingers on the palate in a manner somewhat different from that of a drum, or even a violin. Of course, a violin tastes similiar to a viola and a cello, but if you're really hungry nothing does the trick like a double bass. Still, I have a hankering to taste a piano, and one of these days I suspect I'll get round to it. An organ is something altogether more challenging; all the piping is hard on the digestive system. If you want to start in with your taste for music, I recommend beginning with dried gourd maracas. They're especially good in soup, but watch out for those seeds.


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## BeatriceB (May 3, 2021)

I think classical music isn't going to die, that is just fantasy.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

it is also naive to think that people in powdered wigs are dated just because they lived some hundreds years ago and never seen an iphone... the world in fact does not develop, but goes in cycles, and we aren't the smartest generation just because we're here and now.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> "Good taste" is a way for elitist snobs to put down people they think are beneath them......


...............................


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

"good taste" can have several meanings here. Let's go with the somewhat reduced but maybe least controversial one, roughly "high or refined ability of discernment". This could in principle be tested. 

In the famous Nero Wolfe novel "Too many cooks" there is a game among what we'd call foodies to determine their ability of discernment: A sauce containing 7 herbs has been prepared in 7 variants, each missing one of the key herbs, put in identical containers numbered 1-7. Then the probands all separately enter the room with the sauce variants and a dish the sauce is eaten with and determine which number is missing which herb (I write this from memory, maybe the details are slightly different; it won't be a big spoiler to divulge that the contest very soon becomes unimportant because of some unhealthy "extra ingredient").

Do something similar, e.g. by manipulation of recordings by speeding them up in a certain section, fiddling around with pitch, wrong notes, whatever analogies to the missing herbs there would be and you have a test for a kind of refined discernment in musical listening ability.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

mbhaub said:


> "Good taste" is a way for elitist snobs to put down people they think are beneath them.


people aren't equal anyway, put them down or not.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Good taste is my taste, and bad taste is everybody's else taste who is not in alignment with mine


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## HerbertNorman (Jan 9, 2020)

There is no arguing about matters of taste

Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

Über Geschmacksfragen kann man nicht streiten.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

If someone said they preferred Thunderbird wine to Chateau Yquem, I’d say they had bad taste.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Apparently Mr. Mozart had taste according to Mr. Haydn .... "I tell you before God, and as an honest man, your son is the greatest composer known to me by person and repute; he has taste and what is more the greatest skill in composition." Fascinating I must say.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

HerbertNorman said:


> There is no arguing about matters of taste
> 
> Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.
> 
> Über Geschmacksfragen kann man nicht streiten.


There is a footnote in Kant's Critique of Judgment that one can quarrel about questions of taste but not dispute (because of the medieval "de gustibus non est disputandum"). The point seems to be that a formal debate or conclusive argumentation is not possible wrt taste but that does not mean one cannot talk about it and that all tastes are equal. As there obviously is usually the possibility of improving one's ability of discernment and evaluation.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Taste - good and bad - feels real. But it is presumably subjective. The main thing is that what I hear is what I hear - my judgment works for me. There is music that as soon as I hear it sounds to my ears to be overblown or manipulative. But it's a knife edge thing - relatively small things can justify music that is almost in bad taste. And there is kitsch - music that is in bad taste but in a good way and therefore acceptable. There is quite a lot of music celebrated on this site which I find to be in awful taste - I'm sure many other members would agree even if not about the same pieces - and I find it hard to accept that those who love it relate to music in a way that I can understand.

Good taste is more difficult to describe. Whether in performance or composition it depends on being effective. Whatever _that _means.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"On Sunday 5 March 1775 a particular sacred music work by Mozart was performed at the Munich Court Chapel. It's the K. 222 Offertorium de tempore "Misericordias Domini".
On 4 September 1776 Mozart sent this motet to Padre Martini at Bologna. Padre Martini praised the work by Mozart highly and asked Mozart to receive a painted portrait of Mozart: the importance of this request is due to the fact that Padre Martini, as historian of music, had the habit of collecting the portraits of the people he considered great and important.
Here the original letter sent by Padre Martini to Mozart from Bologna on 18 December 1776 with a technical judgement of Mozart's work.
_«Together with your most kind letter, which reached me by way of Trent, I received the Motet… It was with pleasure that I studied it from beginning to end, and I can tell you in all sincerity that I was singularly pleased with it, finding in it all that is required by Modern Music: good harmony, mature modulation, a moderate pace in the violins, a natural connexion of the parts and good taste. I am delighted with it and rejoice that since I had the pleasure of hearing you at Bologna on the harpsichord you have made great stride in composition, which must be pursued ever more by practice, for Music is of such nature as to call for great exercise and study as long as one lives.»_"
<Impossible Interviews October 2017: Mozart's Teacher & Mentor Padre Martini>









 (0:43~1:22)
"For modern listeners, one of the hardest things to grasp about the Classical style is its unabashed reliance on predictability. Before Beethoven at least, Classical composers simply didn't put much of a premium on innovation for its own sake. Unlike artists today, they weren't usually out to shock, or provoke, or to challenge their audiences. Their aim was to create music that was easily accessible and which honored what they thought of as the rules of good taste and propriety. This led to a heavy reliance on the conventional, and, thus, on the predictable. And one of the most predictable aspects of the style is its use of cadences. Simply put, if you know the classical style, it's often possible to anticipate when a cadence is coming."


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> Taste - good and bad - feels real. But it is presumably subjective. The main thing is that what I hear is what I hear - my judgment works for me. There is music that as soon as I hear it sounds to my ears to be overblown or manipulative. But it's a knife edge thing - relatively small things can justify music that is almost in bad taste. And there is kitsch - music that is in bad taste but in a good way and therefore acceptable. There is quite a lot of music celebrated on this site which I find to be in awful taste - I'm sure many other members would agree even if not about the same pieces - and I find it hard to accept that those who love it relate to music in a way that I can understand.
> 
> Good taste is more difficult to describe. Whether in performance or composition it depends on being effective. Whatever _that _means.


The interesting thing for me is that in some contexts good taste is linked to discernment. And a necessary condition for discernment is the capacity to sense the features, objective features, which are prized by the institutions which protect values in society. This is presumably what's going on with wine, for example. Wine buffs have a enhanced acuity. And I would argue it's what's going in with competition level instrumental performance - preisleid stuff like piano competitions.

Note I say necessary condition, not sufficient.

But what interests me most is how precarious those value giving institutions can be. So not so long ago attributes like coherence and unity were well entrenched necessary conditions of quality in music and in literature - but no more! Except in competitions and Conservative conservatories.


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## Totenfeier (Mar 11, 2016)

Consider the concept of good taste in relation to the culinary arts.

It is a matter of knowing what the ingredients are, and then being able to tell when all of the ingredients are harmoniously and deliciously balanced.

Educated ear=educated palate.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Totenfeier said:


> Consider the concept of good taste in relation to the culinary arts.
> 
> It is a matter of knowing what the ingredients are, and then being able to tell when all of the ingredients are harmoniously and deliciously balanced.
> 
> Educated ear=educated palate.


I'm not so sure. Consider how educated the palate must be to blend and balance the myriad spices in a curry (for some reason I'm on a roll with curries today). Then consider how poorly curry is viewed as a culinary masterpiece.


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## Amadea (Apr 15, 2021)

Taste is so subjective. Yet I think many would agree a person "with taste" is someone who generally:

- likes diverse things, diverse eras, genres and composers.
- likes not only the "mainstream" but also the unknown/overlooked.
- has some knowledge, which is necessary both to enjoy and discover certain composers. 
- is not closed minded. 
- should have listened to many things. 
- is not bounded only to the music of his/her country and culture. (E.g. if you're italian, you do not like only italian opera!)


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

To me, the phrase "he has good taste" means "I have a predefined set of criteria about what things a person should like in order for me to regard that person as interesting/intelligent/sophisticated/good, and he meets those criteria". A mostly harmless judgement that tells us more about the judge than the one being judged.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> To me, the phrase "he has good taste" means "I have a predefined set of criteria about what things a person should like in order for me to regard that person as interesting/intelligent/sophisticated/good, and he meets those criteria". A mostly harmless judgement that tells us more about the judge than the one being judged.


Those predefined criteria may constitute very impressive elements of culture. So, for example, the predefined criterion which values coherence in music led to _all _Western music until quite recently.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

"Good taste" is when someone else's opinion matches one's own.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

MatthewWeflen said:


> "Good taste" is when someone else's opinion matches one's own.


See post #4xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> "Good musical taste" means nothing. It's an individual thing, and I'll leave it at that.


I'd be more precise, and say that aesthetic taste always combines the individual, the social and the universal. As the individual element is ever present, you can indeed say "it's an individual thing."


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

MatthewWeflen said:


> "Good taste" is when someone else's opinion matches one's own.


I agree - I was planning to write the same thing  !


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

fluteman said:


> aesthetic taste always combines the individual, the social and the universal.


good taste demands only the objective: the highest quality possible.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

*The moderating team will not publicly discuss the details of our interactions with specific members. Any speculation about reasons for bans or infractions, in the absence of all the facts, is just that: speculation.

The usual place for members to talk about these matters is Area 51. Let's keep this thread just for the intended topic: good musical taste.*


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Chilham said:


> I'm not so sure. Consider how educated the palate must be to blend and balance the myriad spices in a curry (for some reason I'm on a roll with curries today). Then consider how poorly curry is viewed as a culinary masterpiece.


There are curries and curries. The standard local curry restaurant in Britain serves bland food based on pre-purchased sauces. It is too hard for these places to get entry visas for authentic cooks. In bigger cities you get some authentic places (often the least impressive in looks) but this is still not fine dining. But curries made with the care you describe are highly prized and praised, securing entries in the Good Food Guide etc.


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## Chilham (Jun 18, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> There are curries and curries. The standard local curry restaurant in Britain serves bland food based on pre-purchased sauces. It is too hard for these places to get entry visas for authentic cooks. In bigger cities you get some authentic places (often the least impressive in looks) but this is still not fine dining. But curries made with the care you describe are highly prized and praised, securing entries in the Good Food Guide etc.


I agree. Pre-lockdown, I really enjoyed eating at Dishoom when I could. I also recall great curries at The Bengal Cavalry Club and at Veeraswamy's. But for most people considering high-end cuisine, I doubt curry figures above other cuisines like French, Italian, Japanese, or even Korean!

Or perhaps I'm missing your point, that the Good Food Guide is intended as a synonym for classical music.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> There are curries and curries. The standard local curry restaurant in Britain serves bland food based on pre-purchased sauces. It is too hard for these places to get entry visas for authentic cooks. In bigger cities you get some authentic places (often the least impressive in looks) but this is still not fine dining. But curries made with the care you describe are highly prized and praised, securing entries in the Good Food Guide etc.


I've been to some fine dining Curry houses, they do exist in London at any rate. Notable and bloody gorgeous is...https://www.veeraswamy.com


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

*Thread closed.

Curry has no place in a music thread; especially after a reminder to stay on topic.

*


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