# Recommendions Based on my Ideal



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I don't know if many can relate to my story. Years ago I came up with an idea of what great music could sound like, and then I searched for said idea. Does that sound familiar to your own experiences? Share if you relate!

More on this topic, I really wanted to reach out to Talk Classical and see with all of your valuable experiences if you might recommend me some pieces with even a little bit of similarity, or closer to my golden ideal:



mmsbls said:


> The variation in classical music enjoyment of TC members has always surprised and intrigued me. Mostly I wondered if people had a sense of why their personal enjoyment of some composers varied significantly from a rough average of others' enjoyment.





Ethereality said:


> I ideally love the large structure of something like Ravel's Rhapsodie Espagnole, because although well-connected in progression, it feels more like an adventure and hero's story, with different silent narratives then building up to big singular moments. It tells a clear story without all the standard flat-sounding Classicism you hear from most composers that just drolls on and on.
> 
> However then when it comes to small form, Ravel is totally out the window. His actual 'sound' aspect is a disfavorite, and here I much prefer Mozart and Bach for their catchy contrapuntal themes. I love Mozart's symphonies for example. A combined balance between both styles, I would then call "Incidental Classical", where the small scenes spoken about in my first paragraph are like little Classical-era moments, that then start to slowly weave into various reveals. One problem I've however faced is that a lot of incidental music isn't as extreme in scenic expression as Ravel's Rhapsodie, and for that I have to give many of them the boot.
> 
> ...


So in my ideal, small Classical-era or related era forms and themes may surface up, or become silent/pause as to reflect on the scene previously evoked or what's coming, and then all these forms unite within the whole incidental story. It's just like the Ravel: big scenes that rise up into surprise, celebration, or darkness, don't last long on their own but contribute to the whole development, as well as quietness of scenes. Concretely they're separate _scenes_, but conceptually they seem to rise and fall into one another unitedly.

What are the best compromises, even slightly, between these two styles? I think the large form described would fit the small Classical form like a glove, but I'd love to hear what people recommend as even loosely close to the direction I described, from their normal music. No need to have the exact solution, I'm glad you might recommend some works just starting out down this path .


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

For more context and fun, the small forms in my ideal paradigm, in addition to Classical or similar era, could also but don't have to be of an ethnic or world music influence, if you recollect music like that. Some alright examples I've researched have been:












This is why I shared in a previous thread my favorite instrument among strings, is also the conga and other ethnic percussions, those choir touches, and adventurous brass build-ups* [1] [2] !* But these ethnic/adventure influences are optional, not necessary to your recommendation, so thank you and I appreciate you reading and maybe suggesting works even just in the slight direction!

I'm waiting for Red Terror or someone to come in and say weirdest thread ever  but in reality I'd be happy with even normal music recommendations just sort of in a similar direction. Comment if you also relate at all to my bottom up method of trying to branch into ideal composition products. Feel free to discuss your experiences if you have; I'd like to hear.

I'll archive these links in order of appearance: _Time Machine: Stone Language. Kaitos: To the Garden of the Moon. Kaitos: Gentle Wind. Homeward Bound: Credits. Star Wars: Sarlac Pit/Heroic Tension Theme._


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

TL, DR

I am not trying to be a wise-guy, but describing your musical preferences in generalities is difficult to understand. A list of favorite composers or compositions and possibly a very succinct statement as to why one likes said composer or composition would be easier to understand. It is very hard to read minds!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Stockhausen’s Sternklang.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Your ideal is a little hard for me to grasp to be honest.

But please listen to the Sibelius 3rd Symphony performed by Neeme Järvi and Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra on Deutsche Grammophon. In my ears it is most well articulated and concise musical material in an expanded form.

After hearing you reflecting your ideal against the 3rd Symphony, I may continue the conversation. Thanks!


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Write it yourself!


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

MarkW said:


> Write it yourself!


+1. What makes for a great composer is one who creates music they want to hear, but can't find anywhere else.


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## AaronSF (Sep 5, 2021)

Your musical examples are not the type of music I listen to, so I can be of no help.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

The famous dialectic theory of Hegel states that we have a thesis and a contrasting antithesis, which will create a synthesis. I think the development of music can be perceived also this way.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I don't search for an ideal, so I'll leave it to interested parties to search for their own.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I lack the musical fantasy and imagination so I prefer to be led by composers to what they could come up with. 
However, a piece I'd like to hear but never really encountered is an early/mid romantic symphony as atmospheric and colorful as the great ouvertures (and attached not always as great operas) by Weber. His own early symphonies come no way close, neither do his best concertante works. The closest is Mendelssohn with his "Scottish" and some ouvertures (Hebrides, MSND etc.) but Mendelssohn is not quite romantic enough. Schubert's b minor is too dark and his Great C major too bright, brassy and uniformous. Berlioz is too excentric and too flashy/"modern" in orchestral color.
Schumann should fit but for some reason mostly doesn't. 
Raff is too tame and lame and lacking in good themes/melodies (although the sound of his symphonies is nice with woodwind color but not overly flashy and brass sticking out), Liszt's and most other symphonic poems too late and show a different sound world. Earlyish Wagner is also fairly close to my imagination with the Dutchman ouverture working better than his attempt at symphonies but Tannhäuser is already a bit too slick and also overrich.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> I lack the musical fantasy and imagination so I prefer to be led by composers to what they could come up with.
> However, a piece I'd like to hear but never really encountered is an early/mid romantic symphony as atmospheric and colorful as the great ouvertures (and attached not always as great operas) by Weber. His own early symphonies come no way close, neither do his best concertante works. The closest is Mendelssohn with his "Scottish" and some ouvertures (Hebrides, MSND etc.) but Mendelssohn is not quite romantic enough. Schubert's b minor is too dark and his Great C major too bright, brassy and uniformous. Berlioz is too excentric and too flashy/"modern" in orchestral color.
> Schumann should fit but for some reason mostly doesn't.
> Raff is too tame and lame and lacking in good themes/melodies (although the sound of his symphonies is nice with woodwind color but not overly flashy and brass sticking out), Liszt's and most other symphonic poems too late and show a different sound world. Earlyish Wagner is also fairly close to my imagination with the Dutchman ouverture working better than his attempt at symphonies but Tannhäuser is already a bit too slick and also overrich.


I agree with you -- or at least I think I know where you are heading. The Hebrides by Mendelssohn is something fantastic and I would like to hear more music developed a bit further from that. Crystal-clear early romantic music which already expresses things outside just "pure musical forms".


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Two recommendations based upon my understanding (which is _not_ concrete, given the supplied information) of the OP's query:

Rimsky-Korsakov's _Scheherazade_

Modest Mussorgsky's _Pictures at an Exhibition_ (in the Ravel orchestration)

Whether or not these will satisfactorily meet the demands of the OP is open to confirmation. In any case, they still provide an adventurous "listen" and are pieces that should be revisited by lovers of "classical music" every once in a while.

Had I more time for this thread I might probably add in Respighi's _Pines of Rome_ and Franz Liszt's _Dante_ Symphony, among other pieces, but that will not come now. Besides, I might be totally off the tubes on this one. Did I mention that my understanding of this query is less than concrete?


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

To address at the moment just a couple posts:



SONNET CLV said:


> Two recommendations based upon my understanding (which is _not_ concrete, given the supplied information) of the OP's query:
> 
> Rimsky-Korsakov's _Scheherazade_
> 
> ...


You did a fine job, I love just getting responses and recommendations of any kind, and the ones you listed are okay popular examples. Thank you! The reason I ask is because of all the _unpopular examples_ people have experience with, that may be much closer to the exact concept: I find there's a lot of diverse music not as popular and this community has thorough experience. I would even add _The Ring of Nibelungen_ to your okay popular list, even though its scenes and dynamics are not as varied and distinct, and its melodic forms are a little broader. But it's really my favorite work besides my own concepts. Please feel free to read below because it regards your contribution:



MarkW said:


> Write it yourself!





progmatist said:


> +1. What makes for a great composer is one who creates music they want to hear, but can't find anywhere else.


Spot on. The OP is my own compositional vision, and it is pretty darn awesome, from subtle and beautiful, to epic fugues and canons, orchestrated with great personalities, instrumentations and dynamic ranges where separate scenes evolve like a story, even some scenes being as short as a few seconds. Even simply Baroque and Classical music appreciation scenes. But I just wanted to share my vision and see what people might already like: To add to what you said, a great composer along with their broad vision will also require specific vision to be able to make a work catchy and developed, and it would be fun to share some of what I've come up with sometime. To give a simple exercise example, you can take some of the Bach orchestrations and play around with the dynamics and pace to form distinct scenes but especially altering the composition a lot (the notes) to evoke something more of what you want in a scene, extra-sourcing storytelling, even returning to a bit of his original mood and instrumentational leaning. It's a simple practice to a composer with a specific theoretic vision, ime, and it's nothing like a symphony, which is more like one long scene, but like the Ravelian Rhapsodie, it's just as cohesive.

Right now I'm more interested in people being really awesome here and recommending me new works to listen to, even if it's just a guess. Because I think it would be fun to *meet in the middle ground* of what you guys enjoy and have a discussion about it. I'd appreciate discussing anything (and will get back here in a moment to respond to more, much more specifically and theoretically.)

Thanks!



haziz said:


> TL, DR
> 
> I am not trying to be a wise-guy, but describing your musical preferences in generalities is difficult to understand. A list of favorite composers or compositions and possibly a very succinct statement as to why one likes said composer or composition would be easier to understand. It is very hard to read minds!


Haziz, I addressed you right above.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Mandryka said:


> Stockhausen’s Sternklang.


*Sternklang* is *Stockhausen*'s confession that his music is "a con job".


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