# Mahler and Bruckner: Who are they talking to?



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I have been listening to Mahler for about fifty years now and Bruckner for about forty (I came to him later). When I listen to Mahler I feel that he is more conversational in that he seems to be speaking more directly to the listener and it is important that he communicates to us. 

With Bruckner it’s different. He seems more introspective and seems to be speaking inwardly and it isn’t important to him that he connects with the listener. I’m not saying that he composes only for himself but that isn’t his main aim. 

For Mahler I get the feeling that it is important to him that we get him. Not so much with Bruckner. If we get it, great. If we don’t, no problem. 

Others will feel differently about the music I would suppose.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Mahler is searching and wrestling with God.
Bruckner has found him.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

That’s a problem for me theologically. I can’t relate the music to religion so I have to approach it from a secular position.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

-------------------------------


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Bruckner was talking to God.

Mahler lived in Vienna just a short way from where Sigmund Freud was developing psychoanalysis. Mahler himself had sessions laying on Freud's couch, and Freud diagnosed Mahler as having a mother fixation , unresolved Oedipal Complex, or "Holy Mary" complex. When I listen to Mahler and hear the long meanderings that go this way and that way I think of someone in psychic pain, talking to his psychotherapist, and trying to figure out what life is all about.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> That's a problem for me theologically. I can't relate the music to religion so I have to approach it from a secular position.


I'm not sure that's entirely reasonable. If you want to examine why and to whom composers wrote for, and these composers were highly religious, then you might have to examine it from a theological perspective.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Whatever a listener's religious beliefs or convictions or doubts or positions, one must concede that Bruckner was a staunch "believer", and that attitude certainly informs his musical voice.

Though Mahler had religious connections, I'm not all that convinced that he was a "believer". Moreso, likely, an agnostic, one who questions rather than accepts knowingly. 

Which brings up what I see as a significant difference in the music of the two composers. Mahler's music is more earthy, and earth bound. It's shaped by the world of clay, of green grasses, trees, mountains, and overhung by a sky which changes daily depending upon weather patterns.

Bruckner couldn't care less about the daily goings on of the weather. Nor of soil, grass, or mountains. His vision was grounded in a believe in an afterlife that far surpasses anything imaginable on this Earth. Bruckner is scoring a vision of that afterworld in his music; he has no room there for cowbells, as does Mahler. 

Mahler is writing for man now, as he lives, as he struggles with the world and with his hopes and dreams and expectations, even if those are of an afterlife. As he questions his existence. Bruckner is writing about a world where man's struggles have ended, where hopes and dreams and expectations have been met. The answer is evident; what need for questioning? Bruckner attempts to describe the numinous. Mahler, perhaps, hopes the numinous might be viewed through his music, but one must first confront this "real" world, this present state, and work one's way through it.

Both composers are valid. Each has a legitimate vision. And to compare the music seems rather a trivial exercise in comparison to the monuments of sound each has given us. My preference remains that of listening to the men's music. I find a need for both in my own struggles with the meaning of it all.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

They are not talking to me - and if they are I'm not listening.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> When I listen to Mahler I feel that he is more conversational in that he seems to be speaking more directly to the listener and it is important that he communicates to us.


well, he must be, since got lyrics to his 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 8th symphonies.



Barbebleu said:


> With Bruckner it's different. He seems more introspective and seems to be speaking inwardly


his music narrates of when Germany was created under von Bismarck rule.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

I personally feel there's more overlap between the two than most people think. Yes, in general that schism between the human and the spiritual for Mahler and Bruckner respectively is true IMO, but I also detect lots of personal expression in Bruckner's music as well, just not so much asof a 'wear your heart on your sleeve" type of way Mahler does. That ethereal sublimity I also hear in Mahler's music too, though to be fair I can't speak for Mahler too much because I've had a difficult time getting into him and feel overloaded by the constant drama and bombast. I still think of each one as being very different in general, and it's just a natural comparison for people to make because they were both Austrians, colleagues/contemporaries, Romantics primarily known for their symphonic output and wrote really long music.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

Bruckner is one of the few composers who speaks only through his music. For some composers, you have to read a lot about their philosophy and the historical background of the work you listen to so you can understand what they mean(like Mahler). But with Bruckner , you only need to listen attentively. Everything is there .Unfortunately, some would call him a simpleton due to his looks and the way he spoke. He speaks everything he couldn't with words through his music. He is opening up to us about what he thinks and feels .I will write down what i understand from his symphonies here.

Bruckner is truly the embodiment of Romanticism. He's got a heroic view of the world. Like some romantic composers and writers, he's looks back to the medieval ages; to the days of knights, chivalry, heroism, love and the intact, innocent nature which wasn't not being destroyed( back then). This is what i feel and understand from the 4th symphony and to a lesser extent 6th symphony.

Also, he was a spiritual and religious man as well. (In my opinion, religion and sprituality are different from each other). The spirituality of the 5th symphony is second to none. It's quite surprising how he kept writing symphonies one after another when only few appreciated his works and when Eduard Hanslick criticised his symphonies at that time. But there you go. A monumental work in the symphonic genre. How could he achieve this? Only through his confidence and faith in his beloved God. That's what this symphony manages to express skilfully ; that there's suffering, sadness and loneliness but there's god . The adiagio, by the way is one of the most tragic pieces I've listened to in music. Better tha Mahler's 6th symphony even!

This what i think Bruckner tries to convey to us ate least in some of his masterpieces.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

Mahler takes you on a journey, a walk through his complex yet beautiful garden and ultimately brings you towards some long stairs that he thinks might bring one to heaven.

Bruckner wants you to stop walking, just sit down and look at his garden and asks you to try to find some long stairs that might lead the way to heaven.


Together they look up and speak to their listeners on how they imagine it looks up there.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I'd rather roll in the mud with Mahler than waft in the heavens with Bruckner. It's simply more interesting from my point of view.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have never really given Bruckner a try, but have accepted Mahler. But this thread has inspired me to listen to the Bruckner that I have on hand (came with other sets and was tossed into a folder to forget about at the time). So I have Bruckner symphonies 2 and 4 with Lizzo (cheesy budget set) and 3, 8, and 9 with Schuricht (excellent recordings so I hear). I apparently have Bruckner #7 with Rattle but when I open the folder on my computer I only see track one and it is a .wav file, meaning it was half ripped and never formed into an MP3. I have no idea where that disk is.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> That's a problem for me theologically. I can't relate the music to religion so I have to approach it from a secular position.


My feeling with Bruckner is, even if you're not seeing it religiously, it reflects the journey to an aspiration or a goal. With Bruckner, there is a journey with false starts, getting lost, even going in circles, but there are also glimpses of the goal, reflecting a determination to complete the process.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Both were influenced by Wagner, but to me there's something about Mahler that sounds like Johann Strauss II in his expressions (though Mahler builds much larger structures than J. Strauss). In Bruckner though, I hear a lot of "minimalist patterns". Overall, Bruckner (and Sibelius) strike me as a lot like modern "hazy", "atmospheric" film music. I prefer Mahler.
https://pianobynumber.com/blogs/readingroom/film-music-is-bad-bruckner



hammeredklavier said:


> Holst


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Knows that the Adagietto and Rondo-Finale are cosmic, not personal."


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

a great masterpiece, Bruckner 4th symphony, which is titled "Romantic" -






the almost solitary french horn, at the start of this symphony, represents someone of noble origins, as if calling on certain powers to join for a certain initiative and, make no mistake, this call is to grow strongest by the finale of the first movement, now the multiple horns are at their loudest.






_"The position of Prussia in Germany will not be determined by its liberalism but by its power. Prussia must concentrate its strength and hold it for the favorable moment, which has already come and gone several times. Since the treaties of Vienna, our frontiers have been ill-designed for a healthy body politic. Not through speeches and majority decisions will the great questions of the day be decided, but by iron and blood" - Otto von Bismarck_


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> My feeling with Bruckner is, even if you're not seeing it religiously, it reflects the journey to an aspiration or a goal. With Bruckner, there is a journey with false starts, getting lost, even going in circles, but there are also glimpses of the goal, reflecting a determination to complete the process.


Fair enough. I get that.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> Both were influenced by Wagner, but to me there's something about Mahler that sounds like Johann Strauss II in his expressions (though Mahler builds much larger structures than J. Strauss). In Bruckner though, I hear a lot of "minimalist patterns". Overall, Bruckner (and Sibelius) strike me as a lot like modern "hazy", "atmospheric" film music. I prefer Mahler.
> https://pianobynumber.com/blogs/readingroom/film-music-is-bad-bruckner


Another composer that influenced Bruckner was Schubert. Schubert's Symphony in c major ,known as The Great, expanded the use of horn. We hear lots of horns in bruckner. Right?

But Mahler was influenced many composers. He loved Ludwig van's 9th symphony, hence the use of vocal parts in his symphonies. He was also influnced ny Liszt's symphonic poems and maybe Beethoven's 6th symphony. That's why his music works as a programme. Finally, his admiration for Wagner and Bruckner made him extend the lenght of his symphonies.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Bruno Walter, Mahler's protege who conducted lots of Bruckner, said Bruckner knew God and Mahler spent all his life looking for him.

I listen to both composers. Clearly Bruckner was influenced by God but also by Wagner, Beethoven and Schubert. Mahler was influenced by nature, children, death, his own mortality and a somewhat confused idea of Christian resurrection insofar as he was Jewish and Jews don't believe in Christ. Mahler also was a great advocate for Bruckner's symphonies.

This has led me to believe Bruckner's message, if there is one, is always direct while Mahler's is more scattershot.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't care about any message or philosophical / theological underpinnings. I just listen to the music. I don't need to have a message conveyed. That's for the writers and commentators to go on about. And the people at this forum that can't stop talking about all of this extraneous stuff. It's about the music, not the associations. 

It sounds very romantic to imagine what heavenly aspirations or worldly troubles a composer might be pondering while composing a symphony but I'd put my money on the fact that they are thinking about the creative task at hand and the problems and challenges of developing and completing the work.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

larold said:


> Bruno Walter, Mahler's protege who conducted lots of Bruckner, said Bruckner knew God and Mahler spent all his life looking for him.
> 
> I listen to both composers. Clearly Bruckner was influenced by God but also by Wagner, Beethoven and Schubert. Mahler was influenced by nature, children, death, his own mortality and a somewhat confused idea of Christian resurrection insofar as he was Jewish and Jews don't believe in Christ. Mahler also was a great advocate for Bruckner's symphonies.
> 
> This has led me to believe Bruckner's message, if there is one, is always direct while Mahler's is more scattershot.


Mahler was born and raised as a non-practicing Jew; as an adult he converted to Protestantism, and then Catholicism. Mahler champion, Leonard Bernstein, said that Mahler liked Christianity because the music was better in a church than in a synagogue; but Bernstein also theorized that Mahler's spirit was never far from Judaism, that it was always there in his music even if it is buried beneath ostensibly Christian content (i.e. "Ressurection" or "Veni Creator Spiritus"), Wagnerism, Beethoven-ism, Viennese waltzes, or German milk-maid music. Bernstein explains his thesis in the documentary, _Mahler: The Drummer Boy_, which you probably can find on YouTube (I did a while back).

While it could be that Bernstein takes his theory too far, as Bernstein, I think is eager to read too much into Mahler, and even read too much of _himself_ into Mahler; my own opinion is that Mahler was a seeker, and a universalist as well as an existentialist, though somewhat of one that was troubled and unfulfilled. Along this line, I find it interesting that in _Das Lied von der Erde_ (in my opinion his greatest work), Mahler would essentially look beyond the realms of the so-called "Abrahamic" or "Judeo-Christian" religious tradition, and Western philosophical thought altogether; and turn to Chinese poetry. While Mahler was too European to really "get" Chinese thought, he was making the attempt, always seeking to find the ever-elusive "truth", what they call in physics, the Grand Unifying Theory" or "GUT".


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_It sounds very romantic to imagine what heavenly aspirations or worldly troubles a composer might be pondering while composing a symphony but I'd put my money on the fact that they are thinking about the creative task at hand and the problems and challenges of developing and completing the work._

Just as Beethoven wrote his heroic Third Symphony with real and elusive heroes in mind, there is a record that both Bruckner and Mahler had extra-musical elements that inspired their work.

Bruckner wanted to please Wagner and did so in his so-called "Wagner" Symphony No. 3.

He said about his Te Deum: "...when I am called to God I shall show him this as my mightiest work."

Mahler's youth was spent at many funerals, the reason so many of his symphonies being with a funeral march.

Mahler wrote Kindertotenlieder, or Songs On the Deaths of Children, after his own child died and against the wishes of his wife Alma as a way to manage his suffering. Alma later said the experience shortened his life.

His Sixth Symphony is a metaphor of man's struggles against nature and elsewhere; the 2 or 3 hammer blows that end the symphony are the symbols of man being defeated.

Mahler's 9th symphony was written with the knowledge he had a bad heart and his days were numbered, as if it were his own requiem.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

But in the end we listen to the music because these people were great talents and created superb music. I don't think about Mahler's health problems when I listen to the music.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> Bruckner couldn't care less about the daily goings on of the weather. Nor of soil, grass, or mountains. His vision was grounded in a believe in an afterlife that far surpasses anything imaginable on this Earth. Bruckner is scoring a vision of that afterworld in his music; he has no room there for cowbells, as does Mahler.


Mahler to Bruckner: "You know…that…that…it doesn't work for me. I gotta have more cowbell!"


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

They are both talking to Lucy.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

larold said:


> Mahler wrote Kindertotenlieder, or Songs On the Deaths of Children, after his own child died and against the wishes of his wife Alma as a way to manage his suffering. Alma later said the experience shortened his life.


I've seen more people post this, but it is a common misconception. From wiki:



> The Kindertotenlieder and Mahler's life history
> At the time he wrote the work, Mahler was no stranger to the deaths of children. Hefling writes: "Such tragedy was familiar to Mahler, eight of his siblings died during their childhood. Among all of them, the death of his closest younger brother Ernst in 1875 had affected him most deeply, and he confided to [his friend] Natalie [Bauer-Lechner] that 'such frightful sorrow he had never again experienced, as great a loss he had nevermore borne'.
> 
> Mahler resumed the composition of the interrupted work (see above) in 1904, only two weeks after the birth of his own second child; this upset his wife Alma, who "found it incomprehensible and feared Mahler was tempting Providence."
> ...


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## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> With Bruckner it's different. He seems more introspective and seems to be speaking inwardly and it isn't important to him that he connects with the listener. I'm not saying that he composes only for himself but that isn't his main aim.


I think Bruckner composed for god. But what does that mean? It means that he wrote in the way he thought it is the best without trying to attract and to bewitch humans. And this is different to almost all other composers.

Music of other composers is comparable to talking to an attraktive lady which wants to entertain you.
Bruckners music is more like climbing a mountain, that doesn't move a bit for you. But getting on top of the mountain is very rewarding. I think this is what makes Bruckner really special for me. He is by far my favorite composer. Other music just works different and can be super great, but something that Bruckners music has is always missing.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

larold said:


> _It sounds very romantic to imagine what heavenly aspirations or worldly troubles a composer might be pondering while composing a symphony but I'd put my money on the fact that they are thinking about the creative task at hand and the problems and challenges of developing and completing the work._
> 
> Just as Beethoven wrote his heroic Third Symphony with real and elusive heroes in mind, there is a record that both Bruckner and Mahler had extra-musical elements that inspired their work.
> 
> ...


In addition to the note on Kindertotenlieder not being written after his children died (the more likely inspiration was the fact that many of Mahler's siblings had passed away in their childhoods'), it is important to note that Mahler's sixth symphony was written at what most biographers agree was quite likely the happiest point in his life; he had recently been married and was enjoying great success as a conductor. Furthermore, although Mahler did know he had a heart condition, many others had lived for years with such a condition and based on his extensive plans for his new life in America and the generally upbeat spirit those who knew him personally described, it seems highly unlikely that he had his own death and requiem in mind when he wrote the ninth. In an interview, for example, in 1911 Mahler stated, "I have worked really hard for decades, and have born [sic] the exertion wonderfully well".

Speaking more personally, although Das Lied von der Erde was his personal farewell to his daughter in a way, I believe the 9th was a more abstract look at death.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Itullian said:


> Mahler is searching and wrestling with God.
> Bruckner has found him.


I believe it was Bruno Walter who first posited this, which has now become a cliché. But there may be some truth in it.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_With Bruckner it's different. He seems more introspective and seems to be speaking inwardly _

Bruckner was an organist, among the best in Europe in his day. If you know any organists you know they tend to be introspective, sometimes even introverted. The great, late entertainer Virgil Fox was the rarity among organists -- the outgoing, fun person. More of them tend to be like Bruckner -- inward looking and sometimes timid socially. It is a lonely, complicated musical life.

I expect this comes from the training and performing style of an organist. I sit next to one in church choir. An organist has to think a lot before performing, probably more than most musicians. S/he could have 2 or 3 keyboard and up to 30 stops from which to make numerous registrations. Some registrations will make the organ appear to be playing a horn or bells. It's a complicated musical style that requires a lot of inward thinking and imagination.

Musicologists often say Bruckner's orchestral music follows organ registrations with the brass following the woodwinds following the strings in sequence so he is projecting this organ player's style through his orchestral music.


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## Ned Low (Jul 29, 2020)

I just want to say this Bruckner is not always the spiritual, religious guy they say he is. I mean yes his 5th, 7th and 9th symphonies are spiritual but i don't see symphonies 3, 4, 6 and 8 as spiritual works. They are works of the late romanticism. Just listen to the early recordings of Bruckner : Furtwangler, Bohm and Jochum( his DG cycle) . These guys had a spiritual approach only for the 5, 7 and 9 not the entire symphonies! This common belief that Bruckner was a spiritual composer and his symphonies sound like cathedrals or sth like that is nonsense. That's why i shun Celibidache( not his great partial set he made in Stuttgart but his Munich set! What we hear in the Munich cycle is complete distortion of Bruckner's symphonies) and Jochum's Staatskapelle Dresden.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Coach G said:


> Bruckner was talking to God.
> 
> Mahler lived in Vienna just a short way from where Sigmund Freud was developing psychoanalysis. Mahler himself had sessions laying on Freud's couch, and Freud diagnosed Mahler as having a mother fixation , unresolved Oedipal Complex, or "Holy Mary" complex. When I listen to Mahler and hear the long meanderings that go this way and that way I think of someone in psychic pain, talking to his psychotherapist, and trying to figure out what life is all about.


Mahler did not formally see Freud as a patient. They were staying at a Spa town simultaneously. Mahler sought out Freud for a walk in the woods and tried to mooch free psycho analytic advice. It wasn't the classic Doctor-Patient relationship.
Bruckner clearly had his own Neurosis as well. Trying to establish which of them was more Neurotic would be an interesting parlor game. Suffice to say that both had enormous creative energy and artistic visions, and that their personality quirks fueled their creativity


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.


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## GucciManeIsTheNewWebern (Jul 29, 2020)

flamencosketches said:


> I believe it was Bruno Walter who first posited this, which has now become a cliché. But there may be some truth in it.


I agree it's a bit of a cliché, and should be taken with a grain of salt. People's psyches are very complex and the way it translates to the music is fittingly also complex. It does have some truth to it IMO.


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## Eclectic Al (Apr 23, 2020)

What a day. For reasons which escape me I listened to Bruckner 5 and Mahler 7. Neither of these talk to me at all. I guess I'll keep trying, Bruckner 4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 yes; Mahler 1, 2, 3 4, 5, 6, and 9 yes. But those two. No. Sorry!


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## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

It matters not what faith one was born into (all roads lead to Rome, and not in a Catholic sense). It's one's interpretation of whoever's in Rome at any given time. 
Mahler it seems to me was forever looking for God. He was born a Jew yet converted to Christianity. Bruckner on the other hand appears to have found God and forever praised him in his music.
I think that's why their music is so different. Mahler was on a path (that's why his music sounds different in each composition). Bruckner thought he'd found the one true path (why it's more of the same, yet differs from one to the other). Both are extraordinary composers and it's dependant on the listener on which journey he needs to take. I think.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I don't look at Mahler or Bruckner as religious composers, but _spiritual_ ones. Religion is irrelevant when discussing music of this kind of magnitude, because it is _my_ belief that their music transcend any kind of restraints or pigeonhole one wants to try to place upon them. As for who Mahler and Bruckner are 'talking' to, who knows and, quite honestly, who cares. If their music touches _you_ and you find them emotionally moving, then that's all that matters.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Coach G said:


> Bruckner was talking to God.
> 
> Mahler lived in Vienna just a short way from where Sigmund Freud was developing psychoanalysis. Mahler himself had sessions laying on Freud's couch, and Freud diagnosed Mahler as having a mother fixation , unresolved Oedipal Complex, or "Holy Mary" complex. When I listen to Mahler and hear the long meanderings that go this way and that way I think of someone in psychic pain, talking to his psychotherapist, and trying to figure out what life is all about.


This is a very good description. People bash Bruckner's structure, but it seems sharp as nails to me compared to the wanderings of Mahler.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I think the people who "bash" Bruckner's structure do so because they find it formulaic/schematic/repetitive, not because they think his symphonies are formless.


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## atsizat (Sep 14, 2015)

Both end with er. Looks like they are smilar.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Mahler and Bruckner: Who are they talking to?_

they are both talking to everyone -- the listener, themselves, God, you name it.

Mahler famously said it takes the whole world to make a symphony. He nearly achieved that in Symphony 3, to lesser extent in 8. He spoke about classicism, Christian resurrection, nature, love and loss and mourning, dead children in Kindertotenlieder, angels and heaven, man's fate, his own mortality in Symphony 9, just about everything profound.

Bruckner was an organist, a special, very great organist. Those are people that are often introverts and inward-looking. He was and many, many people questioned his symphonies and rewrote them for him. Those are called editors. He didn't fully believe in himself until he was supported by Wagner. Bruckner speaks more to God and humanity than the causes. He didn't give any of his symphonies nicknames; those all came from others.

To best understand Bruckner listen to and understand his Te Deum -- his greatest work. He himself said if he was called before God at end of life to justify his existence he would show God this work.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Eclectic Al said:


> What a day. For reasons which escape me I listened to Bruckner 5 and Mahler 7. Neither of these talk to me at all. I guess I'll keep trying, Bruckner 4, 6, 7, 8 and 9 yes; Mahler 1, 2, 3 4, 5, 6, and 9 yes. But those two. No. Sorry!


Guess I'm lucky as I admire both B5 and M7. Sometimes it takes just the right conductor to make you a convert. I'd recommend Wand and Bernstein, respectively.

Just watch the 1st movement at least, it's mind-blowing!


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