# Name the 1 composer who you feel will gain the most fans comming decades



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

OK, lets add another composer as honorable mention. 
1st composer whose works will be most recognized by the classical community over the coming decades/100 years. 
Then is you wish, mention another who you would ~like to see~ gain recognition. 
So choice 1, concerns a very likely possibility
choice 2 concerns your hopes to see a certain composer become better known/more widely acknowledged. 


My choice for most likely to gather a new broader fan base, would be Schnittke. 
His music is very extensive in so many styles and forms. 
Something there for everyone. 


So which 2 composers , most likely, most hoped for recognition.


EDIT
I guess we could , if we wanted to,,,add to the discussion, and ask, which 1 composer do you think may lose some substantial fan base over the coming decades. 
Now this is a more tough call than the 1 to gain fan base. 
But if you can see *cracks in the walls* surrounding the musical quality of 1 famous composer, who may have *rode the wave* for too long now, and there is *rough surf* ahead, go ahead and lets us all know what you feel might likely occur.


I think perhaps Sibelius symphonies may take some further declines in the next 50-100 years from now. 
Exception being his lovly tone poems and Kullervo. 
His VC is like super smash hit with Vengerov and Hahn performing the VC world wide past 5 years,. So the VC will remain very popular next 10-20 years.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> I think perhaps Sibelius symphonies may take some further declines in the next 50-100 years from now.


What do you mean "further"? Do you have evidence of a present decline in his popularity? He's very popular here on TC, he's gotten plenty of radio play during my lifetime, and conductor after conductor records him. He seems pretty durable to me, and as the world becomes more crowded and the natural environment deteriorates, his symphonies' majestic vision of man in nature, not to mention their sheer integrity and craft as artistic achievements, may prove more precious than ever.

Beware of projecting your own tastes and desires onto an imaginary future. These are uncertain times, and anyone who thinks they know how things will turn out is a fool.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

As the saying goes, "it's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future."


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

In terms of number of fans, I think it will likely be a film composer. The next Hans Zimmer, Howard Shore.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Most likely to gain recognition - Rachmaninov. Gorgeous music makes a come-back.

Most likely to lose recognition - Pettersson. The guy has peaked, and we finally realize that the cupboard is bare.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> What do you mean "further"? Do you have evidence of a present decline in his popularity? He's very popular here on TC, he's gotten plenty of radio play during my lifetime, and conductor after conductor records him. He seems pretty durable to me, and as the world becomes more crowded and the natural environment deteriorates, his symphonies' majestic vision of man in nature, not to mention their sheer integrity and craft as artistic achievements, may prove more precious than ever.
> 
> Beware of projecting your own tastes and desires onto an imaginary future. These are uncertain times, and anyone who thinks they know how things will turn out is a fool.


Well for a anecdote to your query, Ck out the post which provides the Link to ,,,can't recall title of a new book, just released, providinga *complete* history of all major , significant , composers past 4 centuries. 
Where is Schnittke?

Now I am sure the author is laying the blame at the feet of the proof readers, *how did we, how could we leave out of all modern composers, Schnittke's name from our so called complete list?*
But they did.

Yet the author makes sure to mention, even composers who I consideras less than *minor composers*, *insignificant*, *3rd tier* mentions. Composers who in 100 years will be lost to time.

Hard to believe Schnittke was *left out* so I cked, 2,3,4 times, maybe my vision is that poor.

Does not matter, Schnittke's rise is solid, unstoppable , permanent. 
You and I both know this. The newbies and romanticists , do not know,,,Which is the purpose of this topic. Schnittke the inevitable rise to notoriety. 
Do you hear that Music Academy , Professors, Musicologists, musical program directors, Orchestra patrons, all every orchestra member world wide. 
Early music fan-atics, pure romantics who can't get out of the 1800's if they even wanted to, so badly, stuck ina rut,,,,hear ye post modernISTS, who can't believe composers can be tiered *How? Why? Oh really?*.

Conductors you too note well, the main composer on the world's stage , may not be *your usual cup of English tea and French petits*, 
You may have to do some strenuous homework.

Schnittke is about to make his presence known on 
The World Stage
move over Stravinsky,,,your fame is soon to be dimmed and daunted. 
can you believe the old Viennese have no choice but to open her doors to,,,,Schnittke. 
Vienna will be changed forever. 
The old gods statues may see some cracks in the foundations as Schnittke earthquakes the city walls.

Oh the old gods, as the greeks can testify, no god remains forever. 
Changing of the gods, this century.

This is what I am trying to convey here, Schnittke's spirit is about to blow where it will.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> What do you mean "further"? Do you have evidence of a present decline in his popularity? He's very popular here on TC, he's gotten plenty of radio play during my lifetime, and conductor after conductor records him. He seems pretty durable to me, and as the world becomes more crowded and the natural environment deteriorates, his symphonies' majestic vision of man in nature, not to mention their sheer integrity and craft as artistic achievements, may prove more precious than ever.
> 
> Beware of projecting your own tastes and desires onto an imaginary future. These are uncertain times, and anyone who thinks they know how things will turn out is a fool.


Bravo. Well said. The Sibelius connection with Nature as it continues to be abused and taken for granted will I believe keep his music relevant for many years to come. The Pettersson, Schnittke, Henze connection with the natural world is virtually non-existent. They are more interested in _themselves_, particularly Pettersson who was mainly preoccupied with his own pain and difficulties and has said so:

"The music forming my work is my own life, its blessing, its curses: in order to rediscover the song once sung by the soul"... "I am not a composer. I am a voice crying out … that threatens to drown in the noise of the times."

I would see Schnitkke as having a better chance to succeed than Henze who is so stylistic varied that might take years to sort it all out.


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## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

I responded to the wrong question. Disregard.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> I think perhaps Sibelius symphonies may take some further declines in the next 50-100 years from now.
> Exception being his lovly tone poems and Kullervo.
> His VC is like super smash hit with Vengerov and Hahn performing the VC world wide past 5 years,. So the VC will remain very popular next 10-20 years.


I would be interested to know what you think Tapiola has (you said 'lovely tone poems') that, say, the 7th symphony doesn't? They are the last major works he wrote (1924, 26 respectively) and display similar characteristics - particularly with respect to thematic development.

As regards your OP, I don't think that the mature works of Sibelius have in way reached the potential fan base of the future.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is not easy to predict. Who would have thought 70 years ago that Mahler would become so popular? 

Stravinsky has been through a period of being out of fashion but seems to be making a come-back. I see no sign that interest in Sibelius is declining. The growth of interest in Schmidt may continue. Ravel's position seems secure. 

I think more people are finding Boulez accessible and that Messiaen's popularity continues to grow. Britten is holding his own, with a few works (War Requiem, Serenade and a couple of the operas) growing in popularity. I can see interest in his music more generally growing further. Interest in George Benjamin continues to grow. Birtwistle's popularity seems fairly stable but will grow, I think. Stockhausen may be making a come-back after a lull in his popularity. I think the growth in Schnittke's popularity over the last 15 years has probably reached its peak. I can't imagine Pettersson's popularity growing much more than it has over the last ten years and would not be surprised to see it decline as a lot of his music seems interchangeable. I would like to see Nono making a come-back but am not sure I will. I can imagine Carter's popularity growing in the long-term but with the general cultural dumbing down he could miss the bus. I feel that interest in Maxwell Davies could grow over the next 25 years and I feel sure that Ligeti's star will continue to rise as it has over the last 25 years.

And so on ....


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I would say maybe 70% of the classical community has at least heard the name Messiaen in their lifetime, maybe not his music, perhaps. 
I would say 70% of the CC has not yet heard the name Pettersson. 
Ignorance is bliss. 


I forsee the romantic fan base being so ever slowly eroded over the next 100 years. 
Yeah, sit down, don't have a heart attack, its OK, thev world is a changing place, remember. 
Your romantic composers will survive. 
Us living in this generation are perhaps the last diverse musical community, maybe in the future, folks will be drwn exclusively to 1 main composer with only 3 or 4 *satallite* *moon like* composers. The other 1000 may not hold any interest. 

man is changing, how he turns out in 100 years is anyones guess. 
My suspicions are as described, a very limited homo sapien in what composers he accepts. The other 1000 he has little/nothing to do with. 
I venture to guess this, based on how I approach classical composers across the entire 300 years. 
Perhaps 20 composers have found their a permanent place on my cd shelf,,,with not much additions in the future. Maybe adding 1 or 2, perhaps....
Future man , may have 5 -10 composers represented,,,more future man may have 3-5,,,then way off in the future , maybe he feels 1-3 composers is all he really needs. 
He may discover the entire romantic field of composers , say 1800-1900, just bores him to ,,, a painful death. 
That is a possibility you know.
A horrific thought that may be a cause of depression and sadness for many on the TC board.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Someone mentioned Sibelius last works, Tapolia, never cared for that work, 7th Symphony,,,just heard snippets of the finest record, Berglund/Helsinki, too much in the style iof Beethoven for me to come around to it. I can just uimagine Sibelius symphonies in the future taking some lack of interest. 
The 7th is too much in the old style of Beethoven, lacks cohesive ideas, As though Sibelius is running low on inspirations. 
Nothing really memorable about the 7th. 
I do not miss it, after all these years. 
In all Sibelius Symphonies, he offers these really great sections,,,mixed in with *less so inspired* material. This is my main objection to his 7 symphonies. 


I hope Kullervo, 4 Legends a few others may still find a place in the CC 's favor. As I say its not going to happen tomorrow, this process may take 50-100 years, man is changing. 

darkness lays ahead, and everyone will make a individual choice. 
The popular vote won;''t count. 
The Big 3 may not be Top Tier in the distant future. 
As each individual determines for himself what he places as top tier 1,2,3,4,5th composers. 
Future man will be extremely limited in his aesthetic taste. One guy may love only this set of 5 composers, with a few *moon like* composers, 
Another friend of his, may only share in 1-2 of his composers , and have other 2 -3 main composers in his collection. 
The Big 3, may not so *big* in the distant future, prepare yourself for that fateful event, as you live your life out. 
Look at whats happening here on TC, sharp divisions at every turn.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Most likely to lose recognition - Pettersson. The guy has peaked, and we finally realize that the cupboard is bare.


Ouch! Unfortunately, I tend to agree with you on this particular chap.

One thing I am a bit concerned about is the feeling that the"bubble has burst" on a couple of my favourite composers. Has Janáček had his day? I sincerely hope not. And dare I say Bartok? From my viewpoint, as good as the Shostakovich quartets might be, I simply cannot see there is a comparison in quality with Bartok's six to be made.

That said, I can equally unfortunately foresee Shostakovich having his day. I don't honesty believe we have worked out exactly "what he's all about", as he's gone through the Commie Hack valuation, the pure-hearted dissident Western hero valuation, and the reality, somewhere in between, doesn't fit comfortably.....


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Quite how one can judge the merits of a symphony based upon "snippets of the finest (sic) recording" is anyone's guess. 

Chartres Cathedral is of no architectural merit because the steps outside the south transept aren't very interesting???

Personally I consider Sibelius 7th one of the very finest Symphonies of the last century ( with a slight preference for its predecessor), and yet at the same time about as far removed from Beethoven as could be.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

^ So is that the hidden purpose of this thread? To spread woe to Romantic composer fans? :lol: Listen to the radio. Most of the pieces requested are happy or Romantic, nothing remotely inaccessible or close to atonal. But then I doubt people here care if their favourite composers aren't more popular than the pop stars now, it's more for their own enjoyment. Why do you seem to care so much for the popularity of your few composers you can stand?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Someone mentioned Sibelius last works, Tapolia, never cared for that work,


I'm not aware that is so - please cite your quotation.



> 7th Symphony,,,just heard snippets of the finest record, Berglund/Helsinki, too much in the style iof Beethoven for me to come around to it. I can just uimagine Sibelius symphonies in the future taking some lack of interest.
> The 7th is too much in the old style of Beethoven, lacks cohesive ideas, As though Sibelius is running low on inspirations.
> Nothing really memorable about the 7th.
> I do not miss it, after all these years.
> In all Sibelius Symphonies, he offers these really great sections,,,mixed in with *less so inspired* material. This is my main objection to his 7 symphonies.


The harmonic language that Sibelius employs in the 7th is nothing like Beethoven - you don't hear the sort of cadential progressions that Beethoven uses. Please cite a particular passage that would underpin your assertion.

I asked you why you love Tapiola (a tone poem) and don't like the 7th - works, though different, clearly flowing from the same source.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> Bravo. Well said. The Sibelius connection with Nature as it continues to be abused and taken for granted will I believe keep his music relevant for many years to come. The Pettersson, Schnittke, Henze connection with the natural world is virtually non-existent. They are more interested in _themselves_, particularly Pettersson who was mainly preoccupied with his own pain and difficulties and has said so:
> 
> "The music forming my work is my own life, its blessing, its curses: in order to rediscover the song once sung by the soul"... "I am not a composer. I am a voice crying out … that threatens to drown in the noise of the times."
> 
> I would see Schnitkke as having a better chance to succeed than Henze who is so stylistic varied that might take years to sort it all out.


For myself I choose to embrace diversity. Sibelius, Schnittke, Henze, why not enjoy what they have to offer? Whatever their inspiration for composing music doesn't matter much in the end. Honestly, I don't think of nature while listening to Sibelius. I simply listen to the sound of the music. I would guess that composers who have established reputations internationally for a century or more at this date will remain relevant in the future. For more recent composers we can only speculate about their impact for years to come.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

1. Frank Zappa
2. I dunno...


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

janxharris said:


> I'm not aware that is so - please cite your quotation.
> 
> The harmonic language that Sibelius employs in the 7th is nothing like Beethoven - you don't hear the sort of cadential progressions that Beethoven uses. Please cite a particular passage that would underpin your assertion.
> 
> I asked you why you love Tapiola (a tone poem) and don't like the 7th - works, though different, clearly flowing from the same source.


Sorry for the misleading comment, I mean to say Tapolia, although considered a masterpiece from Sibelius, never really made mucha impression, having several fine records of the work at that.

What I mean by *in the style of Beethoven* is the way things are *sown, stitched together*.., lacks some sort of melodic flow. 
Say around 9:25 in the YT below,,,but this applies throughout the entire symphony,. 
This to me is heavily influenced Beethoven style of composing. 
, Notes being fired off, and , with no background fabric, the harmonic cohesion is rather thin and sparse. 
Beethoven's music to me sounds like its *pre fab Chinese vaneer* looks gorgeous,,,but after you dig deeper, you find its not real wood. 
, 
WhenI listen to ravel's daphne, I quickly lost interest in Sibelius Symphonies...I find Sibelius much kore effective in his 4 Legends, tone poems, folk inspired works. He should have remained within these influences and avoided the symphonic style. He would have made much more interesting works.

Say like what Ravel did. Ravel was smart enough to avoid the Germanic symphonic tradition as *dated*. Which is how I hear Mahler and Bruckner, *out dated/old fashion*, Not relevant to my world in 2019.

My grand fathers may have loved Beethoven, yet this music does not reflect anything in my life. 
Sibelius had some reservations about the long term survival of his symphonies. I think he sensed, he may have gone down the wrong path. 
Perhaps he saw what Bruckner, Tchaikovsky did, and felt this was the best style for a modern world.

Schoenberg came along and gave further doubts to his creations. 
Schoenberg is relevant for today, Sibelius , at least his 7 symphonies seems dated material.


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

I’d like to see Messiaen gain further recognition. I always pester, good naturedly, the music director and organist at my cathedral to play more Messiaen, and on Pentecost they did! It was glorious, and the people responded to it positively. His music, although difficult, is so deeply moving, so infused with wonder, that I think people may increasingly turn to it in this time of disillusionment. I may be projecting, though. 
Maybe for a runner up I’d just like to believe all serious, composed music will grow in the future; that people will tire of the inauthentic pop plastic music and turn towards the more rewarding music that we all love here. Again, probably projecting.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Say around 9:25 in the YT below,,,but this applies throughout the entire symphony,.


Which video?
--------------


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

30 years ago after having so much of their music recorded I was really counting on two of my favorites finally getting the recognition they deserved. Performances of the music would be common and widespread. Well...it never happened. Not here, not anywhere. Franz Schmidt and Joachim Raff both wrote a lot of fine music, but obviously conductors, orchestras, managers, audiences and the like didn't agree with me. 

Frankly. I don't any "modern" composer who will become more popular. As interest in classical is waning, as our simple-minded culture has less and less time for higher arts, orchestras will be forced into rehashing the great warhorses to attract audiences. The outlook for contemporary composers is grim I fear. Don't believe it? Just look at the programming for the music festivals in Hollywood, Aspen, Vail, Grand Tetons, Berkshire, Blossom, Round Top...even the greatest on earth, the BBC Proms. The sense of adventure, of something new is largely gone.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

janxharris said:


> Which video?
> --------------


Here, sorry forgot to upload,,,that entire section 9 minutes,,onwards,,perhaps even to the last note,,,just seems rather thin,,like many parts of Beethoven's music,. *un-inviting, un imaginative**un-inspiring*

throughout Beethoven's 9 symphonies


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## Euler (Dec 3, 2017)

paulbest said:


> This to me is heavily influenced Beethoven style of composing.
> , Notes being fired off, and , with no background fabric, the harmonic cohesion is rather thin and sparse.
> Beethoven's music to me sounds like its *pre fab Chinese vaneer* looks gorgeous,,,but after you dig deeper, you find its not real wood.


Nein.



paulbest said:


> WhenI listen to ravel's daphne, I quickly lost interest in Sibelius Symphonies...I find Sibelius much kore effective in his 4 Legends, tone poems, folk inspired works. He should have remained within these influences and avoided the symphonic style. He would have made much more interesting works.


Nyet.



paulbest said:


> Say like what Ravel did. Ravel was smart enough to avoid the Germanic symphonic tradition as *dated*. Which is how I hear Mahler and Bruckner, *out dated/old fashion*, Not relevant to my world in 2019.


Nee.



paulbest said:


> My grand fathers may have loved Beethoven, yet this music does not reflect anything in my life.
> Sibelius had some reservations about the long term survival of his symphonies. I think he sensed, he may have gone down the wrong path.


Não.



paulbest said:


> Schoenberg came along and gave further doubts to his creations.
> Schoenberg is relevant for today, Sibelius , at least his 7 symphonies seems dated material.


Nihil.



paulbest said:


> Here, sorry forgot to upload,,,that entire section 9 minutes,,onwards,,perhaps even to the last note,,,just seems rather thin,,like many parts of Beethoven's music,. *un-inviting, un imaginative**un-inspiring*


Nope.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^^^^ My goodness, you're SOOOOOOOO negative! :devil::devil:


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Here, sorry forgot to upload,,,that entire section 9 minutes,,onwards,,perhaps even to the last note,,,just seems rather thin,,like many parts of Beethoven's music,. *un-inviting, un imaginative**un-inspiring*
> 
> throughout Beethoven's 9 symphonies


F***ing hilarious!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Euler said:


> Nein.
> 
> Nyet.
> 
> ...


My sentiments exactly.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

When I see some of these judgments about Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius et.al., which seem to have little rationale, it does make me very distrusting about other judgments about Pettersen, Henze, etc.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Beethoven's music to me sounds like its **pre fab Chinese vaneer** looks gorgeous,,,but after you dig deeper, you find its not real wood.


I think you may be on to something here.

It makes me wonder whether in 100 years time the Chinese may have cornered the classical music composer market, as well as everything else.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

paulbest said:


> Here, sorry forgot to upload...


Huh. That looks like Maine.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> When I see some of these judgments about Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Sibelius et.al., which seem to have little rationale, it does make me very distrusting about other judgments about Pettersen, Henze, etc.


You must be in a good mood to be so graciously indulgent of so much self-indulgent bloviation.

I'm still going with nein, nyet, nee, não, nihil, and nope. And you can add nuh-uh, no way, and nee nee nah nah nah nah noo noo.


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## Hiawatha (Mar 13, 2013)

Weinberg.

I think you will also see increasing interest in female and black composers for political reasons. In some ways I am ahead of my time on this one, not especially for political reasons, although I think it is good to widen audiences. As a musical "explorer". I have a natural leaning to investigate these areas and ask myself if there are hidden gems which were once prevented from getting adequate exposure. There are. 

For reasons local to me, I champion Ruth Gipps and Coleridge-Taylor but there are many more names I could mention. Up to 40. One of my happiest moments on a forum was drawing attention to a new disc of The Ordering of Moses by R Nathaniel Dett. People bought it on the basis of my recommendation with the confession that they had never heard of him before. Mostly the feedback after listening was very positive. 

Beyond this, there is the clear resurgence in recent decades of Mahler and Bruckner which will continue. I'm noticing increased interest too in Martinu, Magnard and Scriabin. Early music is also likely to increase in its appeal. I am not quite sure why. It seems counter-intuitive but there is a movement towards it. 

I do have my own pet projects in terms of what should be better known - the Tcherepnins, the Panufniks, Cras, Stolcer-Slavenski, Lourie, North/South Americans among them. But that's just my own idiosyncrasy. 

Beecham unlawfully brought back Delius's body to Britain and buried him in an English churchyard in the dead of night. He believed strongly that only this would guarantee that he would be seen in future years as unequivocally a British composer. For what it is worth, I feel that Andrzej Panufnik should be claimed by the British people in this century as their great lost British composer. He easily stands the test of time.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I have to tip toe around here, from now on,,,probation,,,seems I have put my foot in my mouth and have flamed where I should be involved in provocative, healthy discussions.
My feelings, ideologies, opinions are only that, so hopefully any seemingly negative rants from me, from now on, can be either overlook, and /or forgiven. 
I must now step back and listen, watch, learn .

My stereo should come back from the shop next week, so I will not have much time here anyway....
I have lots of new cds to catch up on. 
Kalabis, Czech/1923-2006
Tubin, Estonia, 1905-1982
to name 2
incredible
major
discoveries. 
Took me some years to come around to both. seems our musical tates can develop, and blinders on our hearing can fall off with maturity and patience. 
One word on both composers, 
UNREAL
GORGEOUS
STUNNING

Note
both fall exactly in my Modern Classical Epoch, Once again, solidly in 20th C

 PB is On Probation


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

paulbest said:


> Someone mentioned Sibelius last works, Tapolia, never cared for that work, 7th Symphony,,,just heard snippets of the finest record, Berglund/Helsinki, too much in the style iof Beethoven for me to come around to it. I can just uimagine Sibelius symphonies in the future taking some lack of interest.
> The 7th is too much in the old style of Beethoven, lacks cohesive ideas, As though Sibelius is running low on inspirations.
> *Nothing really memorable about the 7th.*
> I do not miss it, after all these years.
> ...


Then sit down and listen again - you know what a Mozart fan I am but Beethoven's 7th is a powerhouse symphony.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

stomanek said:


> Then sit down and listen again - you know what a Mozart fan I am but Beethoven's 7th is a powerhouse symphony.


I was referring to Sibelius 7th symphony, as perhaps influenced by Beethoven's forms , ideas, styles, methods of arraignment, which possible Sibelius followed a bit too closely in his 7th symphony. Maybe I am wrong here, But I did feel Beethoven's influences were at least hinted at in the Sibelius 7th symphony.,..
I am not denigrating the Sibelius 7th in any way, or intent, Just asking for others opinions. If I am close to being correct,,,
or way off the mark in this opinionated possibility

PB is on probation due to my ideas expressed previous posts on this topic


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Takeaway from this thread: appreciation for Pettersson and for Sibelius is mutually exclusive. 

Who would've thunk?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> I was referring to Sibelius 7th symphony, as perhaps influenced by Beethoven's forms , ideas, styles, methods of arraignment, which possible Sibelius followed a bit too closely in his 7th symphony. Maybe I am wrong here, But I did feel Beethoven's influences were at least hinted at in the Sibelius 7th symphony.,..
> *I am not denigrating the Sibelius 7th in any way*, or intent, Just asking for others opinions. If I am close to being correct,,,
> or way off the mark in this opinionated possibility
> 
> PB is on probation due to my ideas expressed previous posts on this topic


Sorry, Paul, but the fact is that you've been denigrating both Sibelius and Beethoven for days.

I may be overstepping my bounds a bit in saying this, but I think you should feel enough sense of responsibility to the people on this forum who are confronted with your lengthy posts dominating multiple threads to stop repeating baseless opinions and start providing support for them. Cluttering discussions with wild assertions that no one can take seriously and presenting us with the options of having to argue with you or detour around your pages and pages of indigestible babble is simply offensive. Doesn't it embarrass you?

If you believe that the Sibelius 7th is "influenced by Beethoven's forms, ideas, styles, methods of arraignment [sic], which possible [sic] Sibelius followed a bit too closely in his 7th symphony," you need either to figure out and demonstrate in what respects this is true or to just stop saying it. If the question of Beethoven's influence on Sibelius is something worth writing about, it's worth studying up on. So how about studying up - or else asking questions that might elicit some real information or insight?

One good question could save us from a hundred pages of ignorant bloviating. But then maybe the bloviating - and the annoyance it causes, or the attention it gets you - is your real purpose, and Sibelius and Beethoven are just a handy vehicle for it. I don't know what this "probation" you keep mentioning is, but I should think it was something you'd rather avoid - unless of course you just enjoy trolling people and being coy.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I think that 1400+ posts in less than 3 months must be a new record. I hope that it stands for a long time. I could say more but...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

paulbest said:


> I was referring to Sibelius 7th symphony, as perhaps influenced by Beethoven's forms , ideas, styles, methods of arraignment, which possible Sibelius followed a bit too closely in his 7th symphony. Maybe I am wrong here, But I did feel Beethoven's influences were at least hinted at in the Sibelius 7th symphony.,..
> I am not denigrating the Sibelius 7th in any way, or intent, Just asking for others opinions. If I am close to being correct,,,
> or way off the mark in this opinionated possibility
> 
> PB is on probation due to my ideas expressed previous posts on this topic


sorry - late night post


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Becca said:


> I think that 1400+ posts in less than 3 months must be a new record. I hope that it stands for a long time. I could say more but...


I can only imagine he does not work - spends the whole waking day on CM forums.

The only question is - during this time does he listen to any music.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

stomanek said:


> I can only imagine he does not work - spends the whole waking day on CM forums.
> 
> The only question is - during this time does he listen to any music.


My stereo is soon to come out the shop, nice tube system, which I have never heard as yety,,,due to lack of funds for the 12 driver tubes,,,Being cleaned, If all goes according to plans, should voice music like I've never heard it before and will retire these $20 computer speakers,
More time will be spent on music, and less so here on TC. 
It was great chatting with you guys,,,Although near the end of my visit, I did go a bit,,,,,over board in some of my opinions. 
I pretty much said all I needed to say past 3 months. 
Hopefully some of what I wrote will be food for thought,,,and not result in indigestion 

PB is on probation


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

ohh forgot to say,,,my first few cds up on the all tube stereo, will be orchestral/symphonic/concerto works by 
Szymanowski
Tubin
Kalabis
I am very curious as to how these 3 composers works present itself on a super hifi stereo system. 
Experimentation of sorts. 


I will one day in the near future report back how these tests go forth. 
What surprises await.

btw I did look into Tubin and Kalabis chamber/solo piano works,. Not much going, near nil. 
That disappoints me, as I always look forward to sq's from mid/late 20Th C composers, as huge bonus works to their main symphonic works,. But not to be had. 
Sort of lowers my estimation of these 2 , 
But keep in mind, both suffered under harsh conditions. Especially Kalabis, I mean HARSH.
Which was to become another topic, but alas, no time,. 
take care
Shalom
Friends


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Sorry for the misleading comment, I mean to say Tapolia, although considered a masterpiece from Sibelius, never really made mucha impression, having several fine records of the work at that.
> 
> What I mean by *in the style of Beethoven* is the way things are *sown, stitched together*.., lacks some sort of melodic flow.
> Say around 9:25 in the YT below,,,but this applies throughout the entire symphony,.
> ...


Since your criticism is restricted to the music that follows the 9 minute mark then we can, perhaps, assume you find the prior material superior. This, however, leads to a contradiction since Sibelius recapitulates material heard in this earlier section when we come to the climax near the end. So your:

"...that entire section 9 minutes,,onwards,,perhaps even to the last note,,,just seems rather thin..."

criticism would have to apply to at least some of the earlier material - yet you do not do so. Here are links to the appropriate sections:

Initial exposition: A, B, C.
Recapitulation: A', B', C'.

Sections A. B and C follow consecutively without a break. It isn't, perhaps, immediately obvious that C' recapitulates C.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2019)

For what it may be worth, in the _TC Recommended Symphonies _list that was compiled several years ago, Sibelius Symphony No 7 was ranked at No 61 in the overall list. Nos 5, 2, 4 were placed before it, and Nos 6 and 3 after it.

In the current, ongoing work organised by S_cience _on ranking classical works in general by "tiers", Sibelius Symphony No 7 seems to be ranked at around No 40 in the list of symphonies. I did this calculation manually as there is no breakdown by genre as far as I know.

I have had nothing to do with the construction of either of these lists, and have simply read off the results that are readily available for anyone who may be interested.

As for Paul's comments about Sibelius in general, and Symphony No 7 in particular, they don't strike me as being unreasonable. They are a viewpoint, like everybody else's. Quite how his comment about this symphony got confused with Beethoven's No 7 is odd, as I thought what he said was perfectly clear.

I happen to rate Sibelius quite highly, and doubt that he is destined to decline in popularity over the next few decades any faster than most other of the great composers. I have no idea which composers may decline and which may improve their status amongst any of the composers in, say, the top 100 based on polls I've seen at T-C. I would be surprised though if the usual top 3 declined by much, if any at all. My guess is that Schubert and Brahms will also remain near the top.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

I would say that Sibelius's 7th is one of those works that is difficult to understand because it's language is so unique; it's much easier to appreciate pieces that use more familiar language. It's the kind of work that isn't broadcast on classical music station that concentrate on more famous pieces (eg the UK's Classic FM don't play it in the daytime). Pretty sure your average classical listener hasn't heard it.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Those that are familiar with it - conductors for instance - do rate it highly.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

If Beethoven had written material say like Bruckner's 7th/codas 1st/4th movements,,I would be his #1 fan. 

Had Sibelius continued writing richly layered, beautifully textured thematic , folkish style orchestral , as in his Kullervo, I would be his #1 fan. 

Note how both, at times, has sections where notes *fire off* in a rapid succession ,, the brass solo,, also the winds solo, 
Bruckner may have times of this style, but he offers incredible codas in the 7th , which make up for any *shallow* sections.


Quite often, at least enough times to distract my senses and causes me to ponder,,*did they have a
loss of inspiration at these moments in the score?*
Leaving me , unimpressed.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Now I know from which composer, Sibelius studied most carefully.
Bruckner here , delivers material which transcends any slow movement in Beethoven,,sure I understand Bruckner came later than Beethoven, more opportunity for deeper development, = has time to study Wagner, which Beethoven did not have access to. 
I get that.

..Note the Wagnerian influences in Bruckner,,,opening and close section of this adagio.

Nothing at all wrong there, I like Wagner.Amazing how composers *borrow* from other composers,,I think there isa topic just on that subject,,,referring to Chopin borrowing , often, from Beethoven. (ubconsciously, as some say Chopin was nota big fan of Beethoven)

Anyway, just a few random thoughts while listening to most of the Bruckner adagio.

Just to reiterate, I now see where Sibelius got many of his ideas, styles, formations,,,BRUCKNER. 
Nothing at all wrong there, So many composers do just this same thing. Listen to tubin, RVW all over the place with hints of Sibelius,,, Borrowings,. 
Yet the payback offers incredible interest gains. 
pay back with wonderful interest.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

paulbest said:


> OK, lets add another composer as honorable mention.
> 1st composer whose works will be most recognized by the classical community over the coming decades/100 years.
> 
> .


anyway , short answer to the OP Q
Maurice Ravel


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> If Beethoven had written material say like Bruckner's 7th/codas 1st/4th movements,,I would be his #1 fan.
> 
> Had Sibelius continued writing richly layered, beautifully textured thematic , folkish style orchestral , as in his Kullervo, I would be his #1 fan.
> 
> ...


May I ask why you limited your criticism of Sibelius's 7th to the music from 9 minutes in till the end?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Just to reiterate, I now see where Sibelius got many of his ideas, styles, formations,,,BRUCKNER.
> Nothing at all wrong there,


Sibelius was certainly a fan of Bruckner, but I only hear the influence in his earlier work - they're worlds apart when it comes to the latter material.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

janxharris said:


> May I ask why you limited your criticism of Sibelius's 7th to the music from 9 minutes in till the end?


No I can not answer that Q. I should have stayed clear of any criticism of Sibelius. I was only trying to express the idea that I am now a Modernist, and so as a Modernist, the music of Sibelius did not hold my attention as id did decades ago.

I realize today, the changes in me have not altered his masterful works at all. 
His symphonies stand as masterpieces, and it is not my judgement call to critique.

Sometimes the ego gets a bit carried away.

Apologies to all the Sibelius fans here on TC.

Just because the symphonies may not add up to my modern expectations , by no means should I berate what are considered masterworks, and this for years to come...

Again it was out of bounds to make puerile comments on a great symphonist. 
I plan to halt criticisms of which may be baseless and meaningless to the board.

I wish I had a better answer to your Q, but I don't

So to get back to the OP Q, I mention Ravel above in post #49

Here is why I feel Ravel may find more recognition in the decades to come..






,


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> No I can not answer that Q. I should have stayed clear of any criticism of Sibelius. I was only trying to express the idea that I am now a Modernist, and so as a Modernist, the music of Sibelius did not hold my attention as id did decades ago.
> 
> I realize today, the changes in me have not altered his masterful works at all.
> His symphonies stand as masterpieces, and it is not my judgement call to critique.
> ...


Nothing wrong with criticising Sibelius - but, as has been suggested, it needs some underpinning to have any import.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

janxharris said:


> Sibelius was certainly a fan of Bruckner, but I only hear the influence in his earlier work - they're worlds apart when it comes to the latter material.


So ae you suggesting his great Kullervo has more influence from Bruckner?
I find Kullervo heavy on folk lore of Finland, his inspiration in that work was due to the epic tale of the Kalevala.

This would make for a great new topic, 
Composers influencing other composers. 
Really interesting discussion could open up. 
Perhaps there already exists such a topic on just this subject.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

janxharris said:


> Nothing wrong with criticising Sibelius - but, as has been suggested, it needs some underpinning to have any import.


Yeah I understand... Like I noted in my comment of how I hear faint influences of Wagner upon Bruckner,,,Others chimed in, and agreed, emphasing the word *faint*,,and went on to say,,,Wooduck it was,,,he went on to say,,,Wagner was a master of *seamless transitions*..and other musical notes, which are out my league of expressiveness.

I mean I can vaguely grasp this idea of *seamless transitions*, Wagner the master, over Bruckner's more *clumsy natured* in symphonic writing *at times* they reiterated...

I fail at this means of expression, which is why I plan to resist any further criticism, for lack of ability to properly phrase what I might wish to say.

hope that clears things up a bit.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Funny thing is, if I am driving and have the FM CM station on, up comes Sibelius 7th,,,after some minutes the thought will surely arise *and I was unfairly criticizing this 7th,,,just the other day,,,* and will hear it til the end,,,with the last thought,,*you know,,,it is actually a quite interesting work*

Such is music's power.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> Here is why I feel Ravel may find more recognition in the decades to come..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful work by Ravel and it sounds like it greatly influenced Ralph Vaughan Williams's Lark Ascending. If so, he should have paid Ravel a commission. I see Ravel holding his appeal but not necessarily exceeding what it is now because I don't see him as a revolutionary or an originator. I find it hard to imagine Ravel without Debussy preceding him as the original.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

I will try to answer something relevant to the question of this thread. I see as possible candidates the Alfred Schnittke and Anton Webern. Their music covers many different tastes of the today audiences.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I just would not be so sure that in 50 years from now, there will only be positive developments in classical music or composer appreciation. I assume that 80% of us will not live to experience it. And the tendency here is to be not particularly welcoming to new ideas, new names and new people (see the many irrelevant, grumpy, pedantic comments in this thread). Classical music is by nature a 'thing of the past'. It might well be that 'classical' music is to marginalize even more over the next 50 years, in favour of popular music of the day.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

NLAdriaan said:


> Classical music is by nature a 'thing of the past'. It might well be that 'classical' music is to marginalize even more over the next 50 years, in favour of popular music of the day.


I see classical music as being very much alive both in terms of exploring and performing works from the past and in terms of the vibrant variety of new music. There will always be many who limit themselves to the music of certain periods and composers and I suppose there will always be a split between those who dislike the new and those who only like the new. I don't see any reason to be pessimistic about the future, either, although it might go in directions that I personally would not have liked.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Becca said:


> I think that 1400+ posts in less than 3 months must be a new record. I hope that it stands for a long time. I could say more but...


Not after Pugg averaged more than him close to 30 a day.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> I just would not be so sure that in 50 years from now, there will only be positive developments in classical music or composer appreciation. I assume that 80% of us will not live to experience it. And the tendency here is to be not particularly welcoming to new ideas, new names and new people (see the many irrelevant, grumpy, pedantic comments in this thread). Classical music is by nature a 'thing of the past'. It might well be that 'classical' music is to marginalize even more over the next 50 years, in favour of popular music of the day.


I like to ~~fantasize~ in my wishes that my favs will be performed, accepted, loved, demanded, gain devotees, 
Oure fantasia on my part.

I have been sitting her past 15 minutes,,,,pondering over your words. 
The best way I can respond back to your telescopic observations

~hope for the best, but EXPECT the worst~

~just when you THOUGHT, it can't get any worse~

~some things never change~

~why change? everything is fine JUST the way it is~

~Free Summer Classical concerts in New orleans City park, under the trees, bring kids, pets, lawn chairs, every late evening Fri/Sat/Sunday, FREE and always relaxing, where you will hear great Classical Music,,,Gershwin, Copland, John Williams, every night, *Keeping the great arts alive program, FREE~

~10 years from now, Hillary Hahn might still be locked in her Sibelius VC contracts, filling seats world wide~

~nothing new under the sun, things stay the same~

A future where Ravel may still get the crumbs, Pettersson, Henze, are more marginalized,,,no wait a minute, , lets make it real,,, where Henze, Pettersson are still lock in the dungeon,,,a world where Schnittke, Elliott Carter are ~~marginalized~

Yep think about it, how was 2019 , so much better in concert programing vs 2018's schedule?
And lets all takea peek at orchestras 2020 line up,,,, same old same old.
And concert audiences, 
Still same faces, just one year older. The baby boomers who have some extra cash to buy a ticket, to hear THEIR favorites.

And when this baby boomer crowd passes away in the next 10-20 years,
Are there replacements in the waiting?

I just can't envision this new audience magically appearing, just as the seats empty out.

There are exceptions, like the popular London Proms programs, there you will find a more youthful, say 20-40ish crowd. But much of the London Proms music, is not to my preference. 
It is more a show to have some exciting fun, with the prop ~ Classical Music, a alternative way to bring new exciting music into your life~ The Proms may be more about getting out as a social , meeting new people event, than going to hear composers , never presented at the LSO.

I think this slogan sums it up best, , how things may go down in CM , over the next 100 years.

kick the can down the road

reference above to my 1400 posts,,
let me finish his
*I could say more ,,,but,,,,*. 
* if w boil down his 1400, what are we left with,,,,it all steamed away,,,*

*1400, but all looking like BBQ rib bones, all picked over, not a morsel of beef left...*.

*1400, but if you are looking for water among the posts, better try the desert~


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

If the semi-elitist tresholds are removed and classical music is for everyone to enjoy, it will be all right. As the music will always find new ears. So, indeed, let's just ignore the rusty dusty self absorbed 'connaisseurs' to their own and let's listen to the music. 
:clap:


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> If the semi-elitist tresholds are removed and classical music is for everyone to enjoy, it will be all right. As the music will always find new ears. So, indeed, let's just ignore the rusty dusty self absorbed 'connaisseurs' to their own and let's listen to the music.
> :clap:


If I understand you correctly,,,the lobby halls of Europe, past 200 years, you could perhaps find folks who were , stuck on a agenda to protect and defend THEIR little darlings , over and above and outside intrusions.

That is to say, not my people.

Look at concert programs around the world, 
Hardly any schedules which would invite me to the show. 
I mean Hillary Hahn, yes great violinist puts on a excellent performance,,,but for a Sibelius VC?

I have Oistrakh's at home on cd. 
Brahms? I have Oistrakh on cd.
Orchestras must be more creative, inventive, open minded.

Just think after Hahn's 10 year contract to play the Sibelius all over the world,,,she will never ever have any desire to play the work in the rest of her days. 
10 years, same concerto? 
Chicago had 4 sell out shows, all concerts in 4 nights, all seats sold. Sibelius. 
I never have any desire to listen to any one playing the Sibelius VC. Never. 
That's just me, I am not speaking for the world's opinion.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

NLAdriaan said:


> If the semi-elitist tresholds are removed and classical music is for everyone to enjoy, it will be all right. As the music will always find new ears. So, indeed, let's just ignore the rusty dusty self absorbed 'connaisseurs' to their own and let's listen to the music.
> :clap:


Semi-elitist tresholds (sic)???


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> So ae you suggesting his great Kullervo has more influence from Bruckner?
> I find Kullervo heavy on folk lore of Finland, his inspiration in that work was due to the epic tale of the Kalevala.
> 
> This would make for a great new topic,
> ...


The general flavour of early Sibelius is redolent of Tchaikovsky and to some extent Bruckner I would say.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Thanks to YouTube and the availability of recordings, I can see composers like Glazunov, Bax, perhaps Atterberg and Myaskovsky gaining fans in the coming years (especially given that their works have been reassessed to give them a more fair, balanced light, which was not really the case, say, forty, fifty years ago). Tubin, Melartin, and Schmidt are also worth mentioning. 

Also, public performances of some of their works are increasing in numbers, if uneven from that particular country or region to the next.


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## Paul T McGraw (Jan 19, 2017)

How is popularity to be judged?

Number of CD or MP3 sales?
Performances by major symphonic orchestras?
Number of Radio plays? Or in today's world, plays on iTunes or YouTube or Spotify I guess?
Perhaps being mentioned in lectures by musicologists?

Seriously, how to measure popularity?


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

paulbest said:


> If I understand you correctly,,,the lobby halls of Europe, past 200 years, you could perhaps find folks who were , stuck on a agenda to protect and defend THEIR little darlings , over and above and outside intrusions.
> 
> That is to say, not my people.
> 
> ...


Paul, do you not have an agenda to protect and defend your little darlings? I'm all for catholicity of taste, but denigrating Brahms and Sibelius in favor of someone else isn't demonstrating that.


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