# Do/don't force kids to take music lessons



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Two different views on the matter:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114733/stop-forcing-your-kids-learn-musical-instrument

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114781/parents-should-force-kids-take-music-lessons

Now I realize that there is danger in posting this sort of thing. A link I posted here previously precipitated a political battle that had the thread closed and made me feel a bit like an agent provocateur.

So I hope we can discuss this issue without spiraling into politics or making too many personal remarks...


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm reminded of a quip I heard Neil deGrasse Tyson say once. He remarked on children learning complex problem solving in high school Physics. What percentage of children are ever going to need to know how to solve a problem of pulling a block up a frictionless inclined plane with a hanging mass, etc. This, you would think, is only good for Physics students, or children who explicitly express an interest in Physics. But it's more than that. By being forced to solve this problem as a child, whether you end up in Physics or not, does something to your brain. It makes connections to certain wiring in the brain which can help you in life in other fields. It's not so much the content as the experience.

It's not that 100% of kids will play instruments or need to, but by making them study music, by coordinating their senses to perform on an instrument, the value of that process may be more important then people realize.

Also, my parents raised me with an ingrained sense of "non-quitting". They instilled in me the thrill to push myself. There were times I hated the guitar, but it never once occurred to me that the option to quit was even on the table.


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## MichaelSolo (Mar 12, 2013)

The truth is, only very infrequently do children who learn to play an instrument, acutally like that learning. However, if we'd let kids "go free" and learn only what they might want, the school of classical music might be no more as there simply would not be enough musicians and music lovers to sustain it in any meaninful form: a symphony per each large sity would be thing of the past, and there would be one opera house per country.

So, what do you like better? Children's uninhibited, un-abused by "meaningless practice" upbringing, or classical music?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

My own opinion falls somewhere between those of the two authors: I don't think we should force children into any extra-curricular activities, but once they choose one, they should be forced to stick with it for at least a year or so. Such an experience will teach them a lot about thinking before you do things, and in at least some cases, they might find their enthusiasm returning once they acquire a bit of proficiency.

On a somewhat related note, this article generated a lot of controversy:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

I see there is now even a Wiki article about the article! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Hymn_of_the_Tiger_Mother


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

While children should not be 'forced' to play they should certainly be encouraged. My son is now a professional musician and is glad we made him practice. Like most kids we had battles with him over his practice when he'd sooner have been doing other things. But he is glad he learned because music is a big part of his life. Same with me although I am strictly amateur. My wife is a music teacher and she encourages parents to insist on 20 minutes a day. This will not make a Lang Lang but it does ensure a kid practices regularly. After all if okay is made to do their homework in physics and history and geography then why not music? However if a kid is hopelessly unmusical it is better that they do something else.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

The Tiger Mother book is excellent and certainly gives you a lot to think about.

The two initial articles the OP quotes *do* (unfortunately) get mixed up in politics and sociology. In some ways Music (and the Arts) have become a sign of acceptance (and success) in American culture. The successes of one's children become a boasting counter. The parents, however, do not have clear ideas about culture and can (easily) be attacked because they make (relatively) crass statements about the value of what they are doing. The Tiger Mother approach says that the children *will *do this because it is good for them to develop and work hard and obey their parents.

In some ways, this is similar to debates about the value of the classics in education - some argue that it's done because of the benefits of acquiring a working knowledge of Greek and Roman civilization and their literature; others simple indicate the value of hard work, discipline and competition.

There is also the argument for a common culture which is part of the first cited article - unless you have a working knowledge of Western \ Common Practice music you are missing out. The same argument applies to a working knowledge of the King James bible, regardless of your religious views. If you don't know the AV then you are going to miss a large number of references and allusions in literature. You are also going to be isolated because you do not share common referents that other people use.

So, I feel that children should be encouraged to learn a musical instrument, they should be encouraged to participate in junior orchestras, they should be encouraged to participate in the culture of their parents. They should also be educated and trained in habits of hard work, and perseverance.

Separate issue, I was amused by the comments about ballet classes. If you want to teach kids movement and poise do what the Scots do and teach Scottish country dance - it's ballet based - no fifth position though - and works on developing movement through poise and balance and excellent stepwork. Plus it has the advantage of passing on Scottish culture and history.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Childhood is a time when a person is unqualified to make decisions for themselves, but I won't tell any parents how to raise their children. As for myself, if I have children (we are planning not to) and the resources to afford music lessons, I would have them take music lessons.

Truth is, I would probably homeschool my kids, so I'd want to send them out to contexts where they'd meet other kids for their social development, and things like ballet and orchestra and tae kwon do and so on would be perfect.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Taggart said:


> The same argument applies to a working knowledge of the King James bible, regardless of your religious views. If you don't know the AV then you are going to miss a large number of references and allusions in literature. You are also going to be isolated because you do not share common referents that other people use.


Strongly agree! The one really great thing about being raised in a really traditional religious household is growing up with the KJV. Not only does it help with allusions, it's a huge help to understanding the English of past centuries in general - Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens, Bronte, Twain, Woolf, anything before Hemingway dumbed it down for us.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Children often don't want to do hard things, or new things. When I taught eight-year-olds, they'd grumble about maths, but what sort of teacher would I be if I dropped it from the timetable?

When I was young, my parents wanted each of us to have a hobby or an accomplishment.

My eldest brother did rowing at his private school - paid for by York City Council, because he'd been one of the five best boys in the Eleven Plus exam that year.

My middle brother took up York City Council's School Violin plan (pay £5 for a truly dreadful instrument & have free lessons in school); poor Bro - he hated it, and his teacher - wrongly, I'd say - condemned him as 'tone-deaf'.

My younger brother learned chess.

Both my sisters went riding at weekends. They loved horses. They also both kept rabbits & guinea-pigs, and still do.

I was asked if I wanted to do riding or ballet, and declined. So I was signed up to the School Violin plan. Being a dutiful child, I practised keenly at first, but then gave up in my mid-teens when I needed to study for my O-levels.

But it gave me musical knowledge at a crucial time that I was able to use when I did my M.A. thesis on the traditional ballads.
Plus, I'm back with my fiddle now - and I *love* it.

York City Council - thank you for your educational scheme; Mum & Dad - thank you for forcing me!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

DavidA said:


> My wife is a music teacher and she encourages parents to insist on 20 minutes a day. This will not make a Lang Lang but it does ensure a kid practices regularly.


Twenty or thirty minutes a day, five days a weak, is sufficient to get almost anyone up to intermediate level on an instrument. Most of us will never progress beyond that anyway, but even at that level, an amateur musician can play some of the coolest music ever composed. You also acquire much more appreciation of the playing of professionals. It seems to me well worth the effort.



> However if a kid is hopelessly unmusical it is better that they do something else.


Yes, if for no other reason, just to spare the rest of us from having to listen to someone scraping away at a violin, or howling like an amplified Glen Gould. God have mercy.

I work at a small school, so for school concerts we cannot pick the most talented kids - everyone has to participate. Rehearsals are sheer torture to my sensitive ears. If you are used to the Tallis Scholars, a bunch of primary school kids murdering a pop song is about as terrible a fate as can befall anyone. 

It is actually somewhat strange, because it seems to me one can become fairly proficient at almost any skill without having much talent for it, if you just put in a bit of study and practice. I became fairly good at drawing and painting, for example, despite having started out barely able to draw stick figures. And almost all kids can pass high school math if they study.

But music seems to be one of those things that you never get even half good at if you don't have an ear. On a guitar forum I once heard an MP3 of one of the members there playing a fairly difficult piece. His fingers certainly moved faster and more accurately than mine are ever likely to. He was also blissfully unaware of the fact that his guitar was completely out of tune, and his virtuoso performance was absolute torture to listen to. Perhaps he would have done better learning piano.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

It is fact that reading and playing music gives the brain a workout -- takes the brain to the gym -- like no other activity. Connections are made from the activity of learning to read and play music which, it seems, nothing else quite gets at as thoroughly or in the same way.

When you learn something, your brain literally re-wires some connections. Done early, done for some length of time, the activity permanently hard-wires the brain. What develops is general, with the obvious being the ability of pattern recognition. The less obvious is a benefit in the area of creative problem solving, not just in maths or school studies, but in many situations life presents.

Though I cringe at the thought of an increased wave of less than interested children queuing up for lessons on an instrument with a teacher, it has been proven to benefit them, and for a lifetime.

Along the way, the child experiences discipline and sees that discipline combined with regular time put in brings results: this is difficult to instill in children, who really have no sense of time, let alone what it means to apply oneself to learning a skill which takes years. Understanding that is very important, that younger people get that many things take work and time to achieve (they are disabused of the notion that things come readily and easily

I wish I could say any similar worth, i.e. benefits, come from indoctrinating them with a mix of legends, myths and scraps of actual history centered around one religious faith or another, though getting a sense of ethics along with a bit of philosophy and some archetypal basic psychology along the way _usually_ does most no one any ill.


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I wish someone had forced me to learn an instrument. And I agree that children need to be "forced" because otherwise I can't imagine many 4 year olds are going to choose to take up violin of their own accord. Few children probably know what a violin is at that age, given what music many of them will thus far in their lives have been exposed to. 

Personally, I began recorder lessons, as did everyone in my school, but at the age of about 6 (about the time other children were promoted to piano or violin) was I dismissed as a "no talent" and there ended my musical career. Then I think back to the "music lessons" at school where the whole class (with the exception of the "talented kids" who were having private instrumental tuition) was forced to sing bloody awful hymns and pop songs... what a half-hearted attempt at musical education that was! All I am saying is that if they are going to insist upon teaching children music, they should at least do it properly rather than offering a dumbed-downed everyon-can-participate form of education.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

Everyone has their own experiences. So this is my opinion, nothing more, nothing less, but of course I stand by it, even though I know I might be wrong.

Discipline is a hard subject. I do think every kid needs a good amount of it. Why? Because freedom should always come with a sense of responsability. For the same reason we don't give our kids a whole lot of responsability, we don't give them a whole lot of freedom, we choose for them because they don't know enough about life to make those choices on their own.

That said, I think the "tiger mother" method is a ****** method. 

Why? Well, it's all about values. 

Everybody has their own values in life. Some people value success over everything else. Being the best pianist, the best student, the best business(wo)man. So, working very hard towards success, being competitive, is something they want to still in their children.

Some other people value fun over everything else. Those kind of people are more often than not the exact opposite of the first, and tend to be a bit more lazy.

Some other people value freedom, artistic expression, being in new situations, helping other people, sticking to your people (close family and friends), independency, being a good parent whatever that means, some value individualism, others value collectivism, others value leadership, others value respect, etc.

So, I don't want to impose all my values to everyone, but I do try to fight for what I think it's right and tends to benefit the most of human beings, even if "what's right" is a bit hard to grasp, and it's a bit elusive, and noone ever knows absolutely what's right... 

...but the tiger mother method as far as I'm concerned stresses all the *wrong* values. I do think that because from my own upbringing I learnt that there are alternative ways of raising a child while teaching them discipline and the value of hard work, but without treating them like garbage.

And seriously, forcing a child to learn how to play an instrument? What happened to the old fashioned showing your child how great music is (and visual arts, and learning how to program, and reading literature and philosophy and history and physics and psychology, sociology, etc, etc, etc), showing them than you can give them the opportunity to play, let them try it, and enjoying it themselves without forcing them?

Really? Why do you want to force a child to learn how to play an instrument? What is that you want to accomplish?Why not force the child to do anything else? In the end.... "What values do you want to teach to your children? And what are all the ways to teach those values?"...that's the root question, I think


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Winterreisender said:


> I wish someone had forced me to learn an instrument. And I agree that children need to be "forced" because otherwise I can't imagine many 4 year olds are going to choose to take up violin of their own accord. Few children probably know what a violin is at that age, given what music many of them will thus far in their lives have been exposed to.
> 
> Personally, I began recorder lessons, as did everyone in my school, but at the age of about 6 (about the time other children were promoted to piano or violin) was I dismissed as a "no talent" and there ended my musical career. Then I think back to the "music lessons" at school where the whole class (with the exception of the "talented kids" who were having private instrumental tuition) was forced to sing bloody awful hymns and pop songs... what a half-hearted attempt at musical education that was! All I am saying is that if they are going to insist upon teaching children music, they should at least do it properly rather than offering a dumbed-downed everyon-can-participate form of education.


It is my personal opinion that the moment children enter schooling, almost all schools, they are then consistently condescended toward on the most massive scale imaginable, in all matters of what and how they are being taught. That continues, too often, for years of their lives at least up through middle school and usually through the next level of education prior university or college.

This makes for a near deliberate retardation of the maturing of mankind and our societies, and as a condition or event, is worthy of the label "tragic."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

niv said:


> .... I think the "tiger mother" method is a ****** method.


My earlier post explains the benefits... I'd add that not instructing your child in responsibility and discipline, thinking "they should be a child" and postponing it until they are near middle school age is also formulaic for difficult parent-child relations, and a child held behind.

So yeah, music lessons -- but not the tiger mom "You will start at four to six and you cannot stop until you are fourteen or sixteen," kind of approach -- that's abuse, not child-rearing 

"Tiger Mother" = equals neurotic psycho _____ mom, one more likely to do more near permanent psychological damage to her child than many a less than tiger mom. I thought that was the point of the book


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

I agree with you PetrB on discipline and responsability. I have to concede that the other extreme is also pretty ****** (hi asterisks!). Again, it's also about values: The "they should be a child" mentality values a careless infancy as a precious life experience (perhaps a little too much in some cases). 

But luckily, you can choose something a little less extremist as a parent. A lot of things in life musn't be so black and white, a bit of balance never hurt anyone. I like to think my parents were pretty balanced, and both me and my sister ended up being hardworkers, but also knowing how to appreciate life beyond just hard work and success.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

I think part of the problem is the parents. I taught classical guitar to young children for a while. There were some students who didn't practice at all, knew diddly squat about classical guitar music or classical music in general and were clearly just there because the parents thought it would be a good 'cultural' activity. But the parents themselves weren't very 'cultured', didn't know or want to teach their kids anything about classical music. The most depressing moment for me was when I was looking for something that one child would enjoy playing for fun one lesson, he asked me straight up if we could just get back to slogging through the grade material. That told me that he didn't really care about playing Guitar, he just wanted to get through the grades to please his parents, who only really cared about the piece of paper, not the music.

If we want children to enthusiastic about music, it wouldn't hurt to encourage similar enthusiasm in the people who raise them.

I also appreciate PetrB's comment about being talked down to. I remember all those typical Junior school music lessons banging on percussion instruments while the teacher tried desperately to control the classroom well. As a child who didn't cope very well with the other kids being loud and making a ruckus, all that taught me was how to dread having to be in music lessons. I didn't care really about music at all until I was in my early teens, became interested in rock music and took up playing the guitar. It was reading through textbooks on counterpoint and harmony that I really became interested in classical music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

niv said:


> I agree with you PetrB on discipline and responsability. I have to concede that the other extreme is also pretty ****** (hi asterisks!). Again, it's also about values: The "they should be a child" mentality values a careless infancy as a precious life experience (perhaps a little too much in some cases).
> 
> But luckily, you can choose something a little less extremist as a parent. A lot of things in life musn't be so black and white, a bit of balance never hurt anyone. I like to think my parents were pretty balanced, and both me and my sister ended up being hardworkers, but also knowing how to appreciate life beyond just hard work and success.


The black and white is for very simple, lazy, or radically indoctrinated people. I have a relative who breaks every commandment about logical debate, says their truths are THE truth, acts like that is enough to justify whatever argument or opinion they have.... insists there is no grey when it comes to the truth.

I always mention the black and white photograph, the complete image, and hammer home that it is made up of black, white _and near infinite shades of greys_ to bring us the full "true" picture.

It is also lazy to think there is one consistent approach to any 'problem' and I fear many do that (the self included -- easy to fall into, like any habit) whether the approach is extreme, middle of the road, or arch-conservative. Inflexibility at work there, is just as dangerous.

Moderation in all things, without being deadly dull dead flat-line


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## Rehydration (Jun 25, 2013)

DavidA said:


> While children should not be 'forced' to play they should certainly be encouraged...however if a kid is hopelessly unmusical it is better that they do something else.


My thoughts exactly.
Also, wish I had thought of this:


PetrB said:


> It is my personal opinion that the moment children enter schooling, almost all schools, they are then consistently condescended toward on the most massive scale imaginable, in all matters of what and how they are being taught. That continues, too often, for years of their lives at least up through middle school and usually through the next level of education prior university or college.
> 
> This makes for a near deliberate retardation of the maturing of mankind and our societies, and as a condition or event, is worthy of the label "tragic."


Brilliant.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

My parents are very well educated, cultured, and liberal people. My mother is an architect and also a quite serious painter. My father is an impressive reader. 
I grew up in an environment in which art, literature and university always played a central role in our lives. Literally. Sometimes we had to attend to expositions of my mother's paintings, for example. My father was obsessed with metaphysics when I was a kid. Often he used me as interlocutor for chats about the ontology of reality, consciousness, etc., lol.
But they never forced me to do anything of that. I was just being constantly exposed to the knowledge, and to an attitude of learning for the love of knowledge. 
Naturally, I adopted that view. And when I wanted, from my own desire, to learn music and later physics, all the material and elements (piano, books, CDs, etc.) were provided to me with great enthusiasm by them.
I really don't have any kind of regret or complaint, I think I have been very lucky.


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## Fermat (Jul 26, 2013)

Yes, I think it's a smart idea for parents to force their kids to take lessons. Lessons at that age help wire the brain for a better future. 

Piano is the preferable default choice, but obviously if a kid shows interest in a particular instrument, that should be supported.

The elementary school choir may seem like a good, inexpensive choice for kids who like to sing, and it's certainly better than nothing, but the downside is that many such choirs don't require much, if any, practice, and don't teach anything about reading or understanding music. The kids usually don't even look at the sheet music they're given and just learn their parts by ear. The discipline and music lessons will have to come from lessons on the side. (Piano being a great choice.)

All that being said, I do not approve of the 'Tiger Mom' approach. There's no need for that level of control and abuse.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

When I was SIGNIFICANTLY younger )), I was forced to take piano lessons. Even so, I hated it. For the first four years, I would do so much just to avoid praticing the piano, and despised my lessons. I do acknowledge the fact that my teacher was fairly, uh, unpleasant. Though I had some exposure to clssical music at the time, I was playing very simple and uninteresting works for those years. Nevertheless, I was not allowed to quit. Meanwhile, my sister had been dancing ballet for a few years. She wanted to quit at a young age, and she was allowed to do so. Of course, I was pretty jealous of that. My sister had to continue the piano, though. I did not dance in the first place.

My fifth year of piano proved to have quite an impact on my musical education. Here's what happened: *I played Grieg.* od course, it was not his concerto or anything complex at all, but even now I admit that not a single Grieg I have played has been anything short of wonderful for me. Anyhow, I started to play the piano with more "gusto" and at least a hint of passion. The next year I was introduced to our beloved composer *Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky* through his Seasons - I played June. That was when I started to listen to classical music. So, if not for Tchaikov, I wouldn't know Rachmaninov, and the world would be such a dull place in comparison for me. (Kidding.... Or am I?) :lol:

Now, quite a few years later, I am playing more mature works, of course, and have even gone into competition. I will minor in music, I have finally decided, and just in time! As for my sister who had quit ballet, she sincerely regrets that decision, though has found much pleasure in art, so I am glad for her.

*In short: If I had quit piano lessons, I would have: *

1. Never listened to classical music. 
2. Never known Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov. 
3. NEVER BEEN ON TALKCLASSICAL!! Noo.... It's too painful to think about.... 
4. Never fallen in love with the Romantic Era. 
5. Never reached "musical satisfaction" or quenched my thirst for intensity and passion in music, as well asbeauty and calm. 
6. Not been making this list right now, or listening to Schumann's Violin Concerto as I am now. (Wow! It's much betterr than I have previously judged it to be, but still not as good as Bruch's or Mendelssohn's....) 
7. Been restless for more musical involvement, and unable to satisfy that, since I wouldn't be able to play the piano very well, if at all. 
8. Not been able to contribute to my community through playing for the elderly, events, gatherings, etc.. 
9. Not have been able to add many things to my college resumé. 
10. Not have been able to appreciate and love my time in cars and airplanes - these days I listen to music at those times, of course. 
*. Fallen in love. With everything beautiful. I would not have been able to be who I am.

*Give your children classical music lessons. Let them fall in love. *


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

From the first article: 'Pointlessness rules, as far as I am concerned.' What an awkward inclusion of slang :lol:



PetrB said:


> It is my personal opinion that the moment children enter schooling, almost all schools, they are then consistently condescended toward on the most massive scale imaginable, in all matters of what and how they are being taught. That continues, too often, for years of their lives at least up through middle school and usually through the next level of education prior university or college.


My fellow students and I really don't like our textbooks. The authors regularly treat us like idiots, and the books are usually full of linguistic errors. They read a little like: 'Do you get it, kid? Need another example? Here's a bad analogy with a tenuous relation to something we think is hip and cool. Do you get it now? Yeah? Good. On to the next term. We won't give the exact definition, because you won't understand, but it is basically the following. Do you understand it?' It is related to the parents that know nothing about music relentlessly forcing their children to learn how to play anyway. But it seems music lessons themselves occasionally lack insight too. I've talked to a girl that plays both violin and piano who didn't know what movements were, and to whom the meaning of the term 'adagio' came as a revelation. I'm not quite sure how she even made it through all those lessons 

I myself never learned how to play an instrument through lessons, though I did purchase a harmonica to teach myself how to play the harmonica theme from _Once Upon a Time in the West_ once :lol: My parents never forced me into it, though my mother often says she would have loved it if one of her children knew how to play an instrument. They are not very musical themselves, rarely listening to music at all. In fact, they lack any kind of 'culture', any interests in intellectual pursuits. Most of their time is spend watching television: I managed to break away at one point and from there one I just sat upstairs and did whatever I was interested in or felt like - if I was home at all. I'm very thankful for that freedom, because that is how I ultimately came to classical music. By never being forced to do anything, I had to look for things myself, thus developing an inquisitive disposition and essential open-mindedness, greatly indebted to the internet. Of course, if I had a different personality, I might now be tortured by my lack of musical skills, so it remains a difficult choice, but I'm very glad I could just figure it all out myself together with my friends. I lack discipline though.. I should work on that.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

niv said:


> ...And seriously, forcing a child to learn how to play an instrument? What happened to the old fashioned showing your child how great music is (and visual arts, and learning how to program, and reading literature and philosophy and history and physics and psychology, sociology, etc, etc, etc), showing them than you can give them the opportunity to play, let them try it, and enjoying it themselves without forcing them?...


Very good post. I think that's the key point. 
Unfortunately, it's too ideal, since the majority of people don't have a clue about high art, music, science, etc. In the majority of cases, it will be more or less traumatic for the hypothetical kid. 
Children with aptitudes and desires not understood or even not appreciated by the parents. People who discover their true aptitudes later in life because of poor stimulation during childhood. Etc.
Unfortunately, these are the most common things.
The formal systems of education are from the stone age, the children are homogenized and then the kid may feel even more alienated.


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## JohannesBrahms (Apr 22, 2013)

In general, kids don't want to stick with something if it's difficult. Parents need to train their children to finish something if they start, and to finish it *well*. In other words, if a child wants to start music lessons, their parents need to make them finish them. They should make them practice regularly. If that means having to cut out television and video games, then great! Many parents only make their child practice a short time, unfortunately. Look at the piano lessons Sergei Rachmaninoff took under Nikolai Zverev. He had to practice three hours every single day. If parents made their children do even half of that, they would overcome difficult sections/techniques much faster, and would most likely enjoy it more.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

JohannesBrahms said:


> In general, kids don't want to stick with something if it's difficult. Parents need to train their children to finish something if they start, and to finish it *well*. In other words, if a child wants to start music lessons, their parents need to make them finish them. They should make them practice regularly. If that means having to cut out television and video games, then great! Many parents only make their child practice a short time, unfortunately. Look at the piano lessons Sergei Rachmaninoff took under Nikolai Zverev. He had to practice three hours every single day. If parents made their children do even half of that, they would overcome difficult sections/techniques much faster, and would most likely enjoy it more.


Yes. There is really no "forcing," and it is not _evil_ to require something. Dow e say that we are "forced" to do homework? Of course not - we are reauired. In the same way, when children are young and do not know what is best for them in some areas of life, it is the responsibility of the *parent* to care for the child, in terms of music and others as well.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Very good post. I think that's the key point.
> Unfortunately, it's too ideal, since the majority of people don't have a clue about high art, music, science, etc. In the majority of cases, it will be more or less traumatic for the hypothetical kid.
> Children with aptitudes and desires not understood or even not appreciated by the parents. People who discover their true aptitudes later in life because of poor stimulation during childhood. Etc.
> Unfortunately, these are the most common things.
> The formal systems of education are from the stone age, the children are homogenized and then the kid may feel even more alienated.


I agree aleazk, but I at least wasn't talking about the whole of parenting ever in the world. Most parents won't send children to music lessons, won't force it nor suggest it. Here we're talking about a more precise subset, the subset of parents that would consider sending them to music lessons, the big question is whether to force them to do it whether they like it or not. I think it's pretty silly to force them given that kids can and will end up liking fullfiling activities if you give them a taste of it.

Some people would argue "I was forced but I ended up liking it", which is a nice (if biased given the nature of this forum) case, but that's not the only way that can end up for all childrens. There are also others possibilities to consider. My sister for example would have haten being forced to music lessons, because she's a visual kind of people, currently studying graphic design.

Would you all people would have liked to being forced to go to drawing lessons when you were little? That's pretty good for wiring your brain too, I think.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

mstar said:


> Yes. There is really no "forcing," and it is not _evil_ to require something. Dow e say that we are "forced" to do homework? Of course not - we are reauired. In the same way, when children are young and do not know what is best for them in some areas of life, it is the responsibility of the *parent* to care for the child, in terms of music and others as well.


But WHY equate music with required work that you have to do because you have to? Why make that connection? Why zap all the fun of music? Just because we like to think it "wires our brains better"?

These are my values but: Music should be fun, not a burden. Of course practicising is work, and requires dedication. But do really all things that we do in life have to do THAT? Don't we have enough with all the things that are actually work and we really have to do no matter what? I'll quote the article by this chinese woman that sparked the whole debate:



> Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
> 
> • attend a sleepover
> 
> ...


Or do you think that being in a school play is not a fullfiling activity that's both enjoyable and work at the same time?


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## Musician (Jul 25, 2013)

Music must be learned with love otherwise its not worth it. If a parent forces a child to learn even though he doesn't like leaning music or has any interest in it, then that parent is wrong and there is no justification whatsoever.

Beethoven was beaten and ill-treated by his father, I think that it affected him negatively all through his life. Some may argue that all this great music was worth the abuse, if his father didnt force him to study then we wouldnt have had a Beethoven. Well, I think that even at the cost of the world not having such great music, Beethoven shouldnt have been abused, or beaten if he didnt want to study music.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

For niv and Musician: 

If I had quit music, as I had wanted to, I wouldn't have realized how much I love it! 

Are you saying that one should allow their children so much leniency that they do not have to do what you know is best for them? In the 18 and 19 centuries, there was discipline. There were also some of the greatest musicians of all time. 

Today we have so much leniency, that look at our common "music!" MILEY CYRUS SWINGING NUDE ON A WRECKING BALL, A HUGE HIT, VS. CHOPIN'S SECOND SONATA?! Oh, when did it come to this? 

When discipline lacked.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

My parents forced me to take piano lessons starting around age 7-8. For several years I didn't like it. I wouldn't practice until an hour or two before the lesson, and my talent enabled me to do a decent job. Eventually I liked it, then I loved it. I'm glad my parents forced me to take piano lessons. 

So yes, I think it can be a good idea to force kids to take music lessons. Maybe not all kids, but some kids.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

mstar said:


> Today we have so much leniency, that look at our common "music!" MILEY CYRUS SWINGING NUDE ON A WRECKING BALL, A HUGE HIT, VS. CHOPIN'S SECOND SONATA?! Oh, when did it come to this?


We shouldn't be too hard on popular music; that Miley Cyrus song is popular _because_ it is bad, and also for its shock value. If the point is to get people into classical, teach them open-mindedness: forcing them into one kind of music will often just lead them away from it.


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> We shouldn't be too hard on popular music; that Miley Cyrus song is popular _because_ it is bad, and also for its shock value. If the point is to get people into classical, teach them open-mindedness: forcing them into one kind of music will often just lead them away from it.


Well, I see where you're going, but are you saying that _forcing_ children into their studies means that they will never _like_ any of the subjects they learn? 
To teach open-mindedness, they should be exposed. And not exclusively to Miley Cyrus on a wrecking ball, which I'm sure almost every teenage in the States knows about now. 
Discipline is necessary - *nobody's* asking for treatment similar to Beethoven's, but firmness is necessary for a parent. Kindness and loving, but firmness.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mstar said:


> Well, I see where you're going, but are you saying that _forcing_ children into their studies means that they will never _like_ any of the subjects they learn?
> To teach open-mindedness, they should be exposed. And not exclusively to Miley Cyrus on a wrecking ball, which I'm sure almost every teenage in the States knows about now.
> Discipline is necessary - *nobody's* asking for treatment similar to Beethoven's, but firmness is necessary for a parent. Kindness and loving, but firmness.


Let's face it with most children unless someone applied pressure for them to learn, they will never learn anything! My wife's advice for parents on piano practice is a little and regular. Unless we have another Glenn Gould or something like that!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

If a young person has to make *a bit o*f an effort and have *a little* pressure applied, it's all the sweeter when they achieve something. And it's surprising how a novice can like something unexpected. I remember teaching Milton's Paradise Lost, Book II, at A-level, and one of the least 'academic' of the pupils really took to this difficult work - and improved as a result. 

If she'd been given the cold choice in advance, she might well have chosen another book - and missed out. And if I'd decided that the class couldn't cope & chosen an easier book - it would have been unfair & condescending.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

mstar said:


> Today we have so much leniency, that look at our common "music!" MILEY CYRUS SWINGING NUDE ON A WRECKING BALL, A HUGE HIT, VS. CHOPIN'S SECOND SONATA?! Oh, when did it come to this?


When the wheels on the bus went round and round. Simple tunes and ideas will always appeal to simple minds. Children need educating.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

mstar said:


> For niv and Musician:
> If I had quit music, as I had wanted to, I wouldn't have realized how much I love it!


Like I said, a good example of a child changing their mind. If you search for them there are a lot of kids who never enjoyed it. You won't find them in TC though.



mstar said:


> Are you saying that one should allow their children so much leniency that they do not have to do what you know is best for them?


Like I said before, *values* (which are subjective, though I think there is worth in trying to spread your values). It all depends on which values do you want to teach. I don't think it's in the best interest of a child to learn music forcefully. I love music, but I don't think it's the only worthwhile activity the child can do.

One, for example, is connecting to other human beings. I'm not impressed that this woman's daughter could play very well the piano at the expense of connecting to other human beings. Evidentily[1] the daughter though the same as me, because she rebelled when she was 13. And evidently the mother thought the same, because she talks about being humbled by her daughter.

That said I'm not advocating for indiscipline, not against pushing your kids in one direction. I value both discipline and directness. I'm just saying that we have to consider what we want that discipline for, what direction are we giving them. And being "successful" but disconnected from other human beings, sucks.



mstar said:


> In the 18 and 19 centuries, there was discipline. There were also some of the greatest musicians of all time.
> 
> Today we have so much leniency, that look at our common "music!" MILEY CYRUS SWINGING NUDE ON A WRECKING BALL, A HUGE HIT, VS. CHOPIN'S SECOND SONATA?! Oh, when did it come to this?
> 
> When discipline lacked.


People like Miley Cyrus for extramusical reasons, it has everything to do with marketing. I think a guy like Skrillex, to name a current star, is extremely hardworking, though it explores different things than classical.

[1] By "evidently" I actually mean "I'm guessing from the wikipedia article because it helps my argument" (though I suggest you to check the article if you want)


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## mstar (Aug 14, 2013)

niv said:


> Like I said, a good example of a child changing their mind. If you search for them there are a lot of kids who never enjoyed it. You won't find them in TC though.
> 
> Like I said before, *values* (which are subjective, though I think there is worth in trying to spread your values). It all depends on which values do you want to teach. I don't think it's in the best interest of a child to learn music forcefully. I love music, but I don't think it's the only worthwhile activity the child can do.
> 
> ...


True enough, niv.... But I'm certainly not disconnected with the world, and neither are the majority of people who have had similar musical experience as I have. The question we seem to be facing is: *At what point do we let the child decide?* I had the option of quitting after I realized how much I love the piano - but only after I was willing enough to try to accept it. 
At that point, whenever it is, I think that the child should decide.

You mentioned that most people who have been disciplined into playing an instrument "forced" as you rather unpleasantly put it, dislike it now. That happens to be false, from my personal knowledge and experience. Several times, I have seen on Youtube videos of adults playing children's pieces, and deeply regretting that they did not continue with the instrument when they were younger.

Let us hope that no mother, father, or guardian would force upon a child something unpleasant. Discipline, not forcefulness - discipline is also extremely important for the child at a young age. Rebellious teenagers may not want to play an instrument. Is it bad for them? Of course not! It may even, as we say in my native language, "hadeehon," or "keep them calm." You may be surprised to see what one year of guitar did to one of the most emotionally unstable people I once knew. I only hope he continued with the instrument.... It certainly did "hadee...." 

As for Wikipedia, just never read up on their fantasy that they call Tchaikovsky's life. LIES!! Otherwise, it can be quite alright for some things, besides opinion.... And apparently they consider Pyotr Ilyich opinion.  Poor Peter.

Anyway....


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

I really really really wish my parents had forced me to learn an instrument and to read music. This stuff is so hard to learn as an adult (((


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A timely article, hope it hasn't been referenced already.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114781/parents-should-force-kids-take-music-lessons

In general, education used to be a bit more...forceful...for kids. One of Beethoven's lady friends was the Countess Anna-Marie Erdody. Beethoven showed her much kindness when one of her children died after a beating by his tutor. This was thought a bit beyond the pale, even in Beethoven's day, but the tutor was found innocent of wrongdoing after an inquest. I assume he left it off his resume...


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## Fermat (Jul 26, 2013)

KenOC said:


> A timely article, hope it hasn't been referenced already.
> 
> http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114781/parents-should-force-kids-take-music-lessons


Eh, that's one of the articles linked to in the OP.


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## Fermat (Jul 26, 2013)

Oops... Double post.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Miley Cyrus became a big star as a toothsome teenager in Hannah Montana. However as she really cannot sing very well they are now trying to reinvent her as a semi porn image to get away from her wholesome image. I just wish the kid had taken the money and run and could now live a normal life as an adult. As it is we going to get these ridiculous images for quite some time until the whole thing implodes on itself. This is the cynical side of pop music marketing.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

i would expect the standard school you pay for to teach the child and offer them everything they need music wise.

but they should not be forced maybe pushed a bit.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Llyranor said:


> I really really really wish my parents had forced me to learn an instrument and to read music. This stuff is so hard to learn as an adult (((


People who never learned to play an instrument are always saying this to me. So, there are probably worse things than forcing your child to take lessons...they may thank you for it someday.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

mstar said:


> True enough, niv.... But I'm certainly not disconnected with the world, and neither are the majority of people who have had similar musical experience as I have. The question we seem to be facing is: *At what point do we let the child decide?* I had the option of quitting after I realized how much I love the piano - but only after I was willing enough to try to accept it.
> At that point, whenever it is, I think that the child should decide.


Ok, I think we agree. "Forcefully" as a word might be vague. I'm not against sending your children to music lessons, even if it wasn't their idea, I'm sure many end up loving it (take into account, I did go to music lessons, and I did enjoy it, thought it was my idea, not my parents). So I guess I'm not against an experience like what you enjoyed: being sent to let you experience that music can be something enjoyable. You were given an option to quit after you had already tried it.

What I'm against is the specific attitude as described by the linked article by that chinese woman, which is harsher than what you describe.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Miley Cyrus became a big star as a toothsome teenager in Hannah Montana. However as she really cannot sing very well they are now trying to reinvent her as a semi porn image to get away from her wholesome image. I just wish the kid had taken the money and run and could now live a normal life as an adult. As it is we going to get these ridiculous images for quite some time until the whole thing implodes on itself. This is the cynical side of pop music marketing.


Yes, it's all quite sad for the girl. Couldn't the music corporations target people a little older? Being robbed of a regular childhood has detrimental effects, and the inexplicable glorification of youth needs to stop anyway. It's fine for the consumer, who gets his background music or laugh, but these stars themselves..

By the way, I know tons of guys who wished they knew how to play piano so they could entice the girls with it - a little of Schönberg's Drei Klavierstücke or the second sonata of Boulez should get anyone's attention.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Cheyenne said:


> By the way, I know tons of guys who wished they knew how to play piano so they could entice the girls with it - *a little of Schönberg's Drei Klavierstücke* or the second sonata of Boulez should get anyone's attention.


Hey, didn't you know that piano "harmonics" are a proven aphrodisiac?*

*Probably not a true statement.


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## Fermat (Jul 26, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Miley Cyrus became a big star as a toothsome teenager in Hannah Montana. However as she really cannot sing very well they are now trying to reinvent her as a semi porn image to get away from her wholesome image. I just wish the kid had taken the money and run and could now live a normal life as an adult. As it is we going to get these ridiculous images for quite some time until the whole thing implodes on itself. This is the cynical side of pop music marketing.


Mission accomplished:



> Miley Cyrus smashes her way to her first Billboard Hot 100 No. 1, as "Wrecking Ball" rockets 22-1 with top Streaming and Sales Gainer honors. The song knocks Katy Perry's "Roar" out of the top spot after two weeks.
> 
> http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/5695590/miley-cyrus-wrecking-ball-swings-to-top-of-hot-100


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I really appreciated this thread--lots of interesting perspectives bred of personal experience. I suppose the only thing I'd add is that one's personal experience--specifically of the child or children involved--is _very_ important. I would err on the side of pushing a child quite hard to learn an instrument (and a foreign language, which can be done more easily) when they're young, since I'd feel terrible if they felt the lack later on (a feeling I've seen in this thread). Many children can take more forcing for their own good than is often thought.

But "many" is not "all"--one has to be sensitive to children who really won't respond well or benefit from too much prodding.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

niv said:


> Ok, I think we agree. "Forcefully" as a word might be vague. I'm not against sending your children to music lessons, even if it wasn't their idea, I'm sure many end up loving it (take into account, I did go to music lessons, and I did enjoy it, thought it was my idea, not my parents). So I guess I'm not against an experience like what you enjoyed: being sent to let you experience that music can be something enjoyable. You were given an option to quit after you had already tried it.
> 
> What I'm against is the specific attitude as described by the linked article by that chinese woman, which is harsher than what you describe.


'Tiger Mother' is extreme - she knows it herself, though. There's a lot of humour in that book, along with honesty & a wish to open the whole subject up to debate. I don't agree with her attitude, but I still enjoyed the read.

Blancrocher, above, is the voice of good sense & would most represent my attitude towards my own children, if I'd ever had any...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> In general, education used to be a bit more...forceful...for kids. One of Beethoven's lady friends was the Countess Anna-Marie Erdody. Beethoven showed her much kindness when one of her children died after a beating by his tutor. This was thought a bit beyond the pale, even in Beethoven's day, but the tutor was found innocent of wrongdoing after an inquest. I assume he left it off his resume...


Perhaps he simply noted on his CV that he was "strong on discipline."



DavidA said:


> Miley Cyrus became a big star as a toothsome teenager in Hannah Montana. However as she really cannot sing very well they are now trying to reinvent her as a semi porn image to get away from her wholesome image. I just wish the kid had taken the money and run and could now live a normal life as an adult. As it is we going to get these ridiculous images for quite some time until the whole thing implodes on itself. This is the cynical side of pop music marketing.


Had she been forced to take lessons in classical music instead, she would have realized soon enough that she doesn't have the talent for it and might have had a shot at a normal life (already difficult when dad is a pop star - at least he gave her a more or less normal name instead of something like Princess Peaches Floberta).



Cheyenne said:


> By the way, I know tons of guys who wished they knew how to play piano so they could entice the girls with it - a little of Schönberg's Drei Klavierstücke or the second sonata of Boulez should get anyone's attention.


I grew up in a macho culture where an interest in classical music, or even worse, actually playing it on an instrument, instantly marked you as a sissy boy. At my high school, if you didn't play rugby, you had to at the very least fervently support it, otherwise there was clearly something wrong with you.

Man, am I glad those goons have since lost their political power...


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Teaching in Korea, the most expensive classes in Korea, I see the tiger mothers - they're the only mothers I see. But I've seen plenty of "normal" parents in the USA. And I approve of the tiger parent way.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

science said:


> Teaching in Korea, the most expensive classes in Korea, I see the tiger mothers - they're the only mothers I see. But I've seen plenty of "normal" parents in the USA. And I approve of the tiger parent way.


I'm sure that if nothing else, it at least makes your job as teacher much easier. I teach primary school, and the parents around here are the very opposite of tiger mothers - they are for the most part not involved in their kids' lives at all, or they spoil them rotten. Result: the kids learn nothing at school, and most of them may as well not be there at all.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

"Nobel medicine winner says: I owe it all to my bassoon teacher"

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippedd...-says-i-owe-is-all-to-my-bassoon-teacher.html


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I have mixed feelings on this subject. I took music lessons when I was younger, and in retrospect I wish with all my heart that my parents had forced me to continue them. Being young and easily distracted, I became bored with them after a few months and moved on to other things. In more recent years, music has become such a major part of my life and happiness that I am almost ashamed not to play any instruments. And being much older now, I have hardly the free time to devote to learning one. 

At the same time though, I think that forcing a child to do something against his will will seldom yield the desired result. You can't force a child to learn, and you can't force him to appreciate music.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Kids don't have much executive function (self-discipline) yet, so even a kid who wants to take music lessons will need to have parental help in sticking to it every single day.

It's great for everyone to have some highly disciplined activity in life that they pursue with seriousness and commitment. Perhaps two. It should for the sake of sanity be something the individual loves to do. I see no reason in taking a potentially dedicated athlete, painter, writer, chemist, or tae kwon do master away from their greatest love and forcing them to sit at a musical instrument for many hours a week.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

nightscape said:


> "Nobel medicine winner says: I owe it all to my bassoon teacher"
> 
> http://www.artsjournal.com/slippedd...-says-i-owe-is-all-to-my-bassoon-teacher.html


Probably a typo and he really means "baboon"...his test subject back at the lab.


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