# Works That Start in a Major Key and End in a Minor Key?



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I was watching a Schiff masterclass on youtube recently, and he pointed out something I found interesting. Although there are plenty of works in the repertoire that start in a minor key and end in major, it is relatively rare to find pieces that start in major and end in minor. Schubert's D899 Impromptu in E flat major is an example of such a work, as is Mendelssohn's 4th Symphony. Can anyone name any others? 

Feel free to discuss any thoughts related to this topic.


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## John T (May 5, 2016)

Hugo Alfvén: his Symphony No.2 is in D major, but closes in D minor.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Debussy's Suite Bergamasque and Strauss's Don Juan come to mind. Not quite the same, but the second movement of Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 2 begins in the major and ends with a minor-key coda (in the key of the first movement). Also, the first chord in Mahler's Symphony No. 6 is actually major, though A minor is the first key established.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

It's quite a different thing but in many minor key pieces in sonata-allegro form during the Classical era the second subject group is first in a major key in the exposition but in a minor key in the recapitulation. I don't think this happened very often in Romantic era sonata-allegro forms. Kind of interesting that this "depressing" pattern was common in the usually "cheery" Classical era.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Karlowicz's' Episode at a Masquerade' (op 14) - typical of this composer (Richard Strauss at the start, deep melancholy at the end)


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Definitely Brahms piano trio 1 in B major, ending in B minor, and Chopin Ballade 2 in F major, ending in A minor.

There's actually a lot of Chopin where the answer is, well, "who knows". The A minor prelude is one of the many interesting examples, and someone who knows more than me could provide many more. E minor is the first chord, but G major is the first established key. But the final cadence is A minor.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> It's quite a different thing but in many minor key pieces in sonata-allegro form during the Classical era the second subject group is first in a major key in the exposition but in a minor key in the recapitulation. I don't think this happened very often in Romantic era sonata-allegro forms. Kind of interesting that this "depressing" pattern was common in the usually "cheery" Classical era.


In the classical era minor key sonata form works, the issue was not cheery/tragic but much more so grammatical.

The second theme group in the exposition needed to feel like a dominant, because sonata form is, after all, a large scale dominant->tonic resolution. For a C major piece, it's a no-brainer to have the second theme group in G major. But for a C minor piece, there's a problem. If the second theme group were in G minor, the feeling of dominant is lost from it being a minor chord, although this kind of thing was sometimes done, see the moonlight sonata third movement. If the second the group were in G major, the feeling of dominant is there but the coloristic feeling of the flat notes in the original C minor is too lost. That's why a secondary dominant, usually the dominant of the submediant, was used: E flat major. And then, at the end of the development, we would arrive structurally at the actual dominant.

(There are minor key pieces whose second theme group end in the mediant minor like the appassionata, but such things require special treatment: they are not dominants, and so require going to very remote tonal areas in the development.)

For the recap's second theme group, that is, the resolution, we return to the initial key, which sometimes was played as a picardy third C major, and sometimes the initial C minor. And sometimes the final cadence being major/minor didn't match the second theme group being played in major/minor. Really, for the tonic chord, there were much less grammatical requirements for it being major or minor: it didn't have to be as strictly treated as the dominant.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Mendelssohn's "Italian " symphony , which is in A major, has a finale based on the Italian Saltarello dance rhythm which is in A minor .


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## SimonDekkerLinnros (Jun 15, 2016)

Also Chopin's first ballade, it starts in A-flat major and ends in G-minor.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

SimonDekkerLinnros said:


> Also Chopin's first ballade, it starts in A-flat major and ends in G-minor.


Hi Simon and welcome,

This is going to open a can of worms, but...

Chopin's ballade 1 doesn't start in A flat major. That's the first chord, but it serves only to lead into the dominant of G minor.

It's somewhat of a tricky thing whether the first chord of a piece is automatically the home key. I'd say that the first "real" home key is defined by a dominant chord. Therefore, Chopin's ballade 1 starts in G minor.

However, it really depends on the harmonic rhythm.

For example, if we had, bar by bar, the first bars of a piece (not Chopin's piece, I'm just making up an example) being the bass rhythm: [C] [C] [D7] [G], that would feel like a (tonicized) half cadence in the dominant, in the key of C. But if we had, bar by bar, the first bars of the piece being the bass rhythm: [C] [D7] [G] [G] that would feel like a kind of upbeat establishment of the tonic, in the key of G.

In my opinion, many factors come into play to determine which is "really" happening, not just harmonic rhythm, but the inversion of the chords, and more generally and accurately, the bass motion. I would hear the opening of Chopin's A minor prelude as starting in E minor and then tonicizing G as a secondary half cadence from the harmonic rhythm (sorry that contradicts what I said in my earlier post), but the opening of Chopin's ballade 2 as not being in A flat: here, although the A flat chord is rhythmically protracted out, the chord is in the (weak) first inversion, and to compound that, G minor would be a very remote key to tonicize if we were in A flat major, whereas the interpretation of A flat just being the standard Neapolitan sixth is much more strongly felt.


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## SimonDekkerLinnros (Jun 15, 2016)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Hi Simon and welcome,
> 
> This is going to open a can of worms, but...
> 
> ...


Thanks! Your comment really got me thinking. I'd say it depends on how you define "start". Of course the home key is G-minor. I'll ask my piano teacher what she thinks. For now I'll assume you're right


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

Bruckner 5 is in a major key, but ends on a B flat sonority, although the motif heard a few bars before the end is noticeably minor.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

R3PL4Y said:


> Bruckner 5 is in a major key, but ends on a B flat sonority, although the motif heard a few bars before the end is noticeably minor.


It outlines a B-flat major triad. How could it be noticeably minor?


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## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

I thought Klemperer composed an alternative coda for Mendelssohn's Symphony No. 4, but it was actually No. 3. Anyway, while checking it, I found this wikipedia article: List of major/minor compositions.


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## atlanteanmuse (May 29, 2013)

Wikipedia has an article on this topic, with a long list of works that begin major and end minor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major/minor_compositions


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

atlanteanmuse said:


> Wikipedia has an article on this topic, with a long list of works that begin major and end minor:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_major/minor_compositions


That's a very long list.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Brahms E flat major Rhapsody op 119. I believe it's the last piece for piano he ever composed.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Sounds like the story of my life.

Started out as a happy, bubbling baby. Now look at me!


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## wzg (Jun 17, 2013)

Does Prokofiev 5 end in B-flat minor?


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## atlanteanmuse (May 29, 2013)

wzg said:


> Does Prokofiev 5 end in B-flat minor?


You got me thinking there, and listening to the ending of the symphony several times over. I'd say that the final passage destabilizes traditional tonality altogether (the presence of D-flats notwithstanding; they are part of an octatonic [whole-half] scale) instead of implying minor mode. Strong tonality is restored with the final B-flat unison, which I experience as recalling/invoking the B-flat major world of the earlier material. 
Your question is interesting though, because it points to the blurred line regarding works that can be said to end in minor, especially in the 20th century. Some of Poulenc's music comes to mind, such as the 2nd movement (Scherzo) of the Oboe Sonata (also in B-flat major), which I'd be more inclined to say does end in minor.


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## atlanteanmuse (May 29, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Sounds like the story of my life.
> 
> Started out as a happy, bubbling baby. Now look at me!


Hey, you haven't reached the ending yet - the major could be restored at any time!


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