# Mozart's masonic works vs. his catholic works



## Perotin

Taking into consideration, that Mozart was a freemason, do you think his masonic sacred music is more sincere and heartfelt than his catholic sacred music? Or do you see any other differences between the two?


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## elgar's ghost

Well, much of the liturgical music is on a larger, grander scale but the masonic music, while occupying a relatively low profile corner of Mozart's output, offers some real delights (i.e. the Die Maurerfruede Cantata K.471 and the Mauerische Trauermusik K.477) which suggest that he took Freemasonry seriously when composing for it. In fact, some of the works composed during the very last weeks of his life (i.e. the motet "Ave Maria Corpus" K.618) were Masonic-based.


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## Ferrariman601

I think much of the reason why Mozart's Masonic output has a bit of a more sincere feeling to it is probably because most of Mozart's liturgical music was written on commission or assignment (yes, I'm talking about Colloredo). Many of Mozart's missa brevis settings, although splendid and entirely cogent works, do, to me at least, have a rushed or somewhat belabored sense about them - as if Mozart would much rather have been writing something else. When we look at liturgical music in context of the rest of Mozart's output, what really do we have after 1780? The missa solemnis K. 337 for Salzburg, then nothing until 1783 when he began the C Minor Mass (K. 427). He didn't finish the C Minor Mass - maybe because it wasn't on commission, maybe because other projects got in the way, but, just maybe, perhaps he began to see an alternative to Catholicism? Yes, the C Minor Mass turned into the cantata "Davidde Penitente" in 1785, but, that was on commission, thus, he had reason to see it through. After 1785, we see nothing in the way of liturgical or sacred music save for the Masonic pieces until Ave Verum Corpus, written for the Masons, I believe, and, of course, the Requiem in 1791, again on commission.


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## Kieran

Well this is the great reason behind any Mozart composition, that it was commissioned. It's true that when he was in Salzburg he'd have preferred to be anywhere else, working for anybody else, than Colloredo, but I think his music for the Church there was of a high quality.

And I agree, he most likely abandoned K427 because the deal fell through somewhere along the line, which is a great pity. I think it's right, that when he went to Vienna, he no longer received many (any?) commissions from the Church, for whatever reason. He became a freemason, so he mixed in them circles, so he got commissions and wrote for them. I think the quality of his Church music is greater, however, but have nothing objective to prove it by. As for whether one or the other is "more sincere or heartfelt" than the other, I don't know we'd measure this...


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## Ferrariman601

Oh definitely, Mozart's Salzburg masses are of high quality and I absolutely love them, don't get me wrong. Where I got my line about sincerity from was the idea that Colloredo had a preference for mass settings that were short and compact, which probably annoyed Mozart somewhat, as we have some examples from that time (the Missa Longa K. 262, the K. 337 Credo Fragment, and the K. 323 Kyrie Fragment) which point to Mozart exploring mass settings in a more virtuosic manner, and this inclination would later (sort of) come to fruition in what exists of the C Minor Mass. What seems more likely to me, at that stage of his life, is that Mozart had more disagreements with Colloredo than he did with the Church itself. After his move to Vienna and involvement with the Masons, however, it seems clear that he underwent a shift in personal philosophy (commissions from the Masons, huge Masonic undercurrents in The Magic Flute, etc.), which likely culminated in him seeing the Church, if not religion in general, in a very different light.


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## Kieran

Oh, my apologies, I was quoting the words "sincere and heartfelt" from the OP. They're difficult things to gauge, and possibly easy things to fake! Yeah, Mozart was a gem Colloredo never knew he had. There's no question that you're right, K427 was more expansive and expressive, most likely a sign of fewer restrictions, as well as the composers growing maturity. I'm not sure, but was it composed around the time he was exposed to the music of Bach?


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## Ferrariman601

I was wondering the same thing as I was writing that post! Yes - I looked it up and Mozart was associating regularly with Gottfried van Swieten by 1782, so that corresponds perfectly with the composition of the C Minor Mass. van Swieten was a collector of manuscripts of Bach as well as Händel, so Mozart definitely would have been familiar with the works of both by this time. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that Händel resonated more with Mozart than Bach did (the first time I listened to the C Minor Mass after having familiarized myself with Händel's sacred works yielded some interesting associations) and Mozart later re-orchestrated 4 large-scale works by Händel on commission from van Swieten.


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## Pugg

​I'll like this set very much .
More then all the religious stuff , except the Requiem


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## kangxi

Interesting question - I'd not considered it before. I believe Mozart's personality, his core beliefs, were more attuned to the fraternalism of freemasonry than the hierarchical structure of the church. In modern day lodges you meet as equals; if the same attitude held in 18C Vienna then it would have been in marked contrast to how you greeted people in a church setting. Writing on command for money would surely be done in a different spirit to writing for friends (for maybe money as well). Although having said that, an alternative view is that Mozart was such a consummate professional musician that no matter what the ostensible reason to write music was, he had to do it to the best of his ability anyway.


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## Stavrogin

kangxi said:


> Interesting question - I'd not considered it more. I believe Mozart's personality, his core beliefs, were more attuned to the fraternalism of freemasonry than the hierarchical structure of the church. In modern day lodges you meet as equals; if the same attitude held in 18C Vienna then it would have been in marked contrast to how you greeted people in a church setting. Writing on command for money would surely be done in a different spirit to writing for friends (for maybe money as well). Although having said that, *an alternative view is that Mozart was such a consummate professional musician that no matter what the ostensible reason to write music was, he had to do it to the best of his ability anyway*.


Based on what I've read about Mozart's life and personality, I think the bolded is very likely.


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## Ferrariman601

Oh, no question at all as to Mozart's opinion of and belief in his own ability as a composer - plus his professionalism as a musician. I've often conceptualized Mozart's personality as a rather passionate and perhaps capricious one, which certainly does not lend itself well to the rigorously-structured complexion of the Church. He also strikes me as someone who had an innate sense of fairness and egalitarianism - again, not something seen in Church practice, but essential to the Masonic philosophy. That sense of egalitarianism and equal entitlement to all based on the merit of their action, basically the essence of the fraternity of Freemasonry, probably is what Mozart fell back on when faced with commissions that he'd rather not be working on.


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## regenmusic

Ferrariman601 said:


> Oh, no question at all as to Mozart's opinion of and belief in his own ability as a composer - plus his professionalism as a musician. I've often conceptualized Mozart's personality as a rather passionate and perhaps capricious one, which certainly does not lend itself well to the rigorously-structured complexion of the Church. He also strikes me as someone who had an innate sense of fairness and egalitarianism - again, not something seen in Church practice, but essential to the Masonic philosophy. That sense of egalitarianism and equal entitlement to all based on the merit of their action, basically the essence of the fraternity of Freemasonry, probably is what Mozart fell back on when faced with commissions that he'd rather not be working on.


I don't agree with this. Masons have a very structured ranking system. Jesus said "if you do it to the least
of one of these little ones (like the homeless), you've done it to me, which at least in theory shows egalitarianism. 
I agree however with Mozart's not necessarily being a churchy religious type. He didn't seem to like Abbe Vogler 
and also seemed to get pretty wayward in his later years with doing a lot of gambling. Didn't he also 
write those risque letters? I'm not saying this all deep down affected his spirituality.


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