# Does religous music do this to anyone else;



## JamieHoldham

I dont know why, but when I listen to religous works - or some inspired by religion especially Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, and Bach's Mass in B Minor I just wish I could lie down and go to heaven, or not wake up the next time I go to bed - leave this world for something possibly greater? I just get a feeling that I cant really explain, I just want to die..

maybe it has something to do with my suicidal thoughts and depression, probally just me and I made a pointless thread.. if so sorry.


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## helenora

mmm....I understand what you want to say....

and those pieces you named are incredibly beautiful, it´s true.
when I listen to this music I feel "That's it ...to live for". or better to say this music becomes so inseparable from my life so that I live with it even when I don't actually physically listen to it/to those sounds.

I think it's your current emotional state, but it shouldn't become permanent, I mean don't find escape from reality through music, otherwise it'll become your separate world in which you wish to hide....but still reality should be dealt with ....


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## Animal the Drummer

Just to add that this is absolutely not a pointless thread if posting it has helped you in any way.

It does get better, I promise, and music will be there to help you celebrate when it has.


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## Pugg

Animal the Drummer said:


> Just to add that this is absolutely not a pointless thread if posting it has helped you in any way.
> 
> It does get better, I promise, and music will be there to help you celebrate when it has.


Such nice words spoken.


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## Guest

Especially when you are depressed it is very important to maintain your relations and not seclude oneself behind a wall.Stay in contact with family and friends, it is essential.I don't know if that is the case with you but isolation is a death end.Anyway,enjoy the music.:tiphat:


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet

JamieHoldham said:


> I dont know why, but when I listen to religous works - or some inspired by religion especially Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, and Bach's Mass in B Minor I just wish I could lie down and go to heaven, or not wake up the next time I go to bed - leave this world for something possibly greater? I just get a feeling that I cant really explain, I just want to die..
> 
> maybe it has something to do with my suicidal thoughts and depression, probally just me and I made a pointless thread.. if so sorry.


I would encourage you to talk to you family and friends and seek professional help if you have serious suicidal thoughts. Posting on TC and listening to music is great but is probably not what you need the most if you are suicidal.

Please excuse my unsolicited advice.


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## millionrainbows

JamieHoldham said:


> I dont know why, but when I listen to religous works - or some inspired by religion especially Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, and Bach's Mass in B Minor I just wish I could lie down and go to heaven, or not wake up the next time I go to bed - leave this world for something possibly greater? I just get a feeling that I cant really explain, I just want to die..
> 
> maybe it has something to do with my suicidal thoughts and depression, probally just me and I made a pointless thread.. if so sorry.


It does seem that "going to God" or to heaven would be the ultimate escape from the judgement of this world, and of the people who judge us. But it is what it is. As Sartre said, "Hell is other people."


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## JamieHoldham

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I would encourage you to talk to you family and friends and seek professional help if you have serious suicidal thoughts. Posting on TC and listening to music is great but is probably not what you need the most if you are suicidal.
> 
> Please excuse my unsolicited advice.


I have been trying to talk to someone, but when I feel like it's the right thing to do I just cant do it.. it's difficult and I dont really want to be percived as being weak and not being able to handle anything on my own, thanks for the advice though.


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## bioluminescentsquid

JamieHoldham said:


> I have been trying to talk to someone, but when I feel like it's the right thing to do I just cant do it.. it's difficult and I don't really want to be perceived as being weak and not being able to handle anything on my own, thanks for the advice though.


I assure you that it requires a lot of bravery and determination to seek help from others, and anyone who would look upon you as weak is simply wrong.


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## Folsom

I've had "bliss", but it wasn't from music.

This reminds me of the character Curly from City Slickers talking about the love of his life.


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## Pugg

bioluminescentsquid said:


> I assure you that it requires a lot of bravery and determination to seek help from others, and anyone who would look upon you as weak is simply wrong.


Bless you for this wise words .


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## Oliness

JamieHoldham said:


> I dont know why, but when I listen to religous works - or some inspired by religion especially Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, and Bach's Mass in B Minor I just wish I could lie down and go to heaven, or not wake up the next time I go to bed - leave this world for something possibly greater? I just get a feeling that I cant really explain, I just want to die..
> 
> maybe it has something to do with my suicidal thoughts and depression, probally just me and I made a pointless thread.. if so sorry.


Yes it can do that. But know that your life on earth is valuable. You are needed right now. God wanted you to have this body and this life. Because in this life we can share loving communion with everybody else. I know things are hard, but it really is a good thing that you and everybody else is here on earth.


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## Varick

JamieHoldham said:


> I have been trying to talk to someone, but when I feel like it's the right thing to do I just cant do it.. it's difficult and I dont really want to be percived as being weak and not being able to handle anything on my own, thanks for the advice though.





bioluminescentsquid said:


> I assure you that it requires a lot of bravery and determination to seek help from others, and anyone who would look upon you as weak is simply wrong.


Quite right. The weakness is how you feel. *EVERYONE* has weaknesses. People who over eat have a weakness when it comes to food. People who are alcoholics have a weakness with alcohol. Some people have a weakness with laziness, or emotions, or anger, or with thousands of other things.

There is *NOTHING wrong* with having weaknesses. It only means you are human. But like all humans you have strengths as well. As stated above, it takes great strength and courage to admit the weakness and seek help to work on those weaknesses as to diminish the negative effect they have on your life.

Millions of people have done this which means you can as well. And you can, because you are no lesser a person than anyone else. Seek the help, there is *nothing* weak in doing so. God bless.

V


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## Reichstag aus LICHT

Varick said:


> People who over eat have a weakness when it comes to food. People who are alcoholics have a weakness with alcohol. Some people have a weakness with laziness, or emotions, or anger...


...has _Wikileaks_ published my medical history?


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## Klassic

While I agree that music articulates the greatest Utopia, it is sheer delusion to think that this Utopia lies somewhere else, in some other realm. This is the danger of religion; it condemns life and prohibits life from embracing itself. In other words, the beauty and solace you hear was created by man, it comes from the human heart and mind. The sooner we know this the sooner we can strive to make a better world, because we will not be wastefully drooling over another one. This means the escapism inherent in religious music is dangerous to the flourishing of the human species. God will not save you because he is not real. We have to save ourselves. I'm sorry, but this is the hard truth of reality. 

Religious music is beautiful, not because it's religious, but because it's human.


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## millionrainbows

Klassic said:


> While I agree that music articulates the greatest Utopia, it is sheer delusion to think that this Utopia lies somewhere else, in some other realm. This is the danger of religion; it condemns life and prohibits life from embracing itself. In other words, the beauty and solace you hear was created by man, it comes from the human heart and mind. The sooner we know this the sooner we can strive to make a better world, because we will not be wastefully drooling over another one. This means the escapism inherent in religious music is dangerous to the flourishing of the human species. God will not save you because he is not real. We have to save ourselves. I'm sorry, but this is the hard truth of reality.
> 
> Religious music is beautiful, not because it's religious, but because it's human.


Is this a form of aggressive Buddhism, or Misanthropic Humanism? I'm sorry, but this is the hard truth of reality (SLAP!!!). Life is suffering (SLAP!!).

Is Marilyn Manson's music religious?


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## SiegendesLicht

millionrainbows said:


> Is this a form of aggressive Buddhism, or Misanthropic Humanism? I'm sorry, but this is the hard truth of reality (SLAP!!!). Life is suffering (SLAP!!).


This:



Klassic said:


> This is the danger of religion; it condemns life and prohibits life from embracing itself. In other words, the beauty and solace you hear was created by man, it comes from the human heart and mind. The sooner we know this the sooner we can strive to make a better world, because we will not be wastefully drooling over another one. This means the escapism inherent in religious music is dangerous to the flourishing of the human species.


sounds more like Friedrich Nietzsche.


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## millionrainbows

SiegendesLicht said:


> This: sounds more like Friedrich Nietzsche.


I thought I smelled some misanthropy in there.


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## SiegendesLicht

You have smelled something wrong  It is a love of life and a love of humanity, not misanthropy. "Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman" - and classical music is certainly a step towards the latter.


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## Sam Waylen

You are making quite a keen distinction here.
Bach is considered by one scholar to have had a " deep and serene longing for death " ( approximately )

NOT suicidal himself , he may well have had a mind that encompassed the whole triumvirate of Birth, Life, and Death with remarkable skill. ( Can't help thinking of Attenborough and his Nature stuff here )

He may to my way of seeing things, have seen MUSIC as a river which pre-dates our life and extends through and beyond.

To get touched by HIS facility in gripping this reality may well mean that you are convinced that Music is the Bigger " thang" and that our puny little human lives are perhaps little more than twigs floating on a stream.

At the moment I am looking at Spirituals ....


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## Xaltotun

Klassic said:


> While I agree that music articulates the greatest Utopia, it is sheer delusion to think that this Utopia lies somewhere else, in some other realm. This is the danger of religion; it condemns life and prohibits life from embracing itself. In other words, the beauty and solace you hear was created by man, it comes from the human heart and mind. The sooner we know this the sooner we can strive to make a better world, because we will not be wastefully drooling over another one. This means the escapism inherent in religious music is dangerous to the flourishing of the human species. God will not save you because he is not real. We have to save ourselves. I'm sorry, but this is the hard truth of reality.
> 
> Religious music is beautiful, not because it's religious, but because it's human.


It seems that religion is totally otherworldly to you, and humanity is totally worldly to you. Is that how you think? I don't think either of those holds true. Religion cannot be "out there" even if it is based (is it? I'm not 100% sure it is) on something that is "out there", and especially humanity cannot be "in here", with the notable exception of Wagner's character of Siegfried (who is fictional). Religion as nothing but inner life and spirituality is ridiculous, and humanity without morals, ethics, aesthetics, ideas and concepts (references? language? there's always something that points to something else that is ineffable) is an impossibility.


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## millionrainbows

Perhaps in the end, "religious" music may be just that: music intended for religious use.

That's rather boring, though, as it says nothing about the effectiveness of the music, or its universal, if any, qualities.

By this definition, Kate Smith singing "God Bless America" is in the same category as Bach's B Minor Mass. That tells us nothing about the nature or even the intent of the music, or its possible effectiveness on people.


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## millionrainbows

Klassic said:


> While I agree that music articulates the greatest Utopia, it is sheer delusion to think that this Utopia lies somewhere else, in some other realm. This is the danger of religion; it condemns life and prohibits life from embracing itself. In other words, the beauty and solace you hear was created by man, it comes from the human heart and mind. The sooner we know this the sooner we can strive to make a better world, because we will not be wastefully drooling over another one. This means the escapism inherent in religious music is dangerous to the flourishing of the human species. God will not save you because he is not real. We have to save ourselves. I'm sorry, but this is the hard truth of reality.
> 
> Religious music is beautiful, not because it's religious, but because it's human.



Certain common and universal elements of human psychology and physiology are triggered by certain kinds of sounds, namely drones and repetitions, and these sounds can affect us and lead us closer to being 'in tune.' We resonate sympathetically with certain kinds of sounds and music.


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## millionrainbows

SiegendesLicht said:


> You have smelled something wrong  It is a love of life and a love of humanity, not misanthropy. "Man is a rope, tied between beast and overman" - and classical music is certainly a step towards the latter.


I can't tell what you are, from your defense of Nietzsche. Are you an atheist?


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## Woodduck

millionrainbows said:


> I can't tell what you are, from your defense of Nietzsche. Are you an atheist?


Elsewhere you express surprise at people mentioning their atheism. Now you want someone to do exactly that so that you can tell "what they are."

Perhaps atheists would be less likely to talk about it if you weren't constantly harping on it.


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## SiegendesLicht

millionrainbows said:


> I can't tell what you are, from your defense of Nietzsche. Are you an atheist?


I am a born-again atheist - but what are you?


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## Klassic

Cryptic because I despise charlatans: A very proud doctor once said, "I know what you're doing, you're trying to starve your body." In this he was correct, but his error was that he assumed his knowing was proof that the action was wrong. Many will need to go back to school.


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## Becca

_...but his error was that he assumed his knowing was proof that the action was wrong.
_
A wise statement ... and it applies just as much to those who use it as those it is used against.


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## Klassic

Becca said:


> _...but his error was that he assumed his knowing was proof that the action was wrong.
> _
> A wise statement ... and it applies just as much to those who use it as those it is used against.


You might want to rethink your comment. Pointing out that one is pointing out a fallacy, does not mean, that the one pointing, is guilty of a fallacy. If I am not mistaken, this is not the first time you have fumbled in your use of fallacy. 'Many will need to go back to school.'


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## millionrainbows

Woodduck said:


> Perhaps atheists would be less likely to talk about it if you weren't constantly harping on it.


I doubt that very much.


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## Barbebleu

God, if there is a god, save my soul, if I have a soul! 

Religion - a get out of jail free card for those who cannot take responsibility for their own actions but like to think what they do or don't do is god's will. Don't get me started. 

Happy for people to think what they like but keep it to yourselves.

I personally think music is music and can be written to fulfill some form of expression which may have some religious function but intrinsically music remains just that - music.

Now waiting with barely controlled excitement for vitriolic feedback from the religious faction.:devil:


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## Harmonie

Listening to some polyphonic choral Renaissance music like that of Thomas Tallis' does seem to make me think of "Heaven". However, I can not help but think it only has that connotation because it was planted in my mind by media/society. Do not get me wrong, this music is (IMO) is incredibly beautiful, and nothing can take that away.

It doesn't make me want to 'move on', but perhaps that's because I do not see any reason to believe that there is any kind of afterlife. This beautiful music exists for us in _this_ world. This world is the world I value living in.


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## SiegendesLicht

Barbebleu said:


> God, if there is a god, save my soul, if I have a soul!
> 
> Religion - a get out of jail free card for those who cannot take responsibility for their own actions but like to think what they do or don't do is god's will. Don't get me started.


Sometimes it can be just the other way around. But we can talk all day about what religion does or does not, and never come to a single opinion. I think religion means different things for everybody - every believer finds in it a fulfillment of whatever inner need he has. That is why it has such a huge appeal.


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## Barbebleu

SiegendesLicht said:


> Sometimes it can be just the other way around. But we can talk all day about what religion does or does not, and never come to a single opinion. I think religion means different things for everybody - every believer finds in it a fulfillment of whatever inner need he has. That is why it has such a huge appeal.


I agree. I have no problem with those who have faith but grant me the privilege of not having it. I can listen to Tallis and Byrd and Gesualdo et al all day long but it has no meaning for me other than its beauty of form and composition. It doesn't give me a religious experience.


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> God, if there is a god, save my soul, if I have a soul!
> 
> Religion - a get out of jail free card for those who cannot take responsibility for their own actions but like to think what they do or don't do is god's will. Don't get me started.
> 
> Happy for people to think what they like but keep it to yourselves.
> 
> I personally think music is music and can be written to fulfill some form of expression which may have some religious function but intrinsically music remains just that - music.
> 
> Now waiting with barely controlled excitement for vitriolic feedback from the religious faction.:devil:


Don't worry about God or religion; just get in touch with your higher spiritual self.

I think that atheists really do have a spirit, but they just can't identify with it, because their "floating mind" keeps getting in the way.

You are more than a mind; you are a complete being.


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## millionrainbows

Harmonie said:


> Listening to some polyphonic choral Renaissance music like that of Thomas Tallis' does seem to make me think of "Heaven". However, I can not help but think it only has that connotation because it was planted in my mind by media/society. Do not get me wrong, this music is (IMO) is incredibly beautiful, and nothing can take that away.
> 
> It doesn't make me want to 'move on', but perhaps that's because I do not see any reason to believe that there is any kind of afterlife. This beautiful music exists for us in _this_ world. This world is the world I value living in.


Actually, a lot of the imagery we have of both Hell and Heaven (often depicted as a garden) was given to us by artists.


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## millionrainbows

Harmonie said:


> It doesn't make me want to 'move on', but perhaps that's because I do not see any reason to believe that there is any kind of afterlife. This beautiful music exists for us in _this_ world. This world is the world I value living in.


You didn't worry about all those years _before _you were born, either.


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> Religion - a get out of jail free card for those who cannot take responsibility for their own actions but like to think what they do or don't do is god's will. Don't get me started.


Also, you could view religion as a way to absolve oneself and thus get away from people who won't give anybody any slack, like Dr. Phil. :lol:


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> I agree. I have no problem with those who have faith but grant me the privilege of not having it. I can listen to Tallis and Byrd and Gesualdo et al all day long but it has no meaning for me other than its beauty of form and composition. It doesn't give me a religious experience.


But religious music was created as a total conceptual package. If you separate it from its talismanic power, you are missing the true impact. You can't "objectify" what was created as a spiritual tool.


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## Barbebleu

millionrainbows said:


> But religious music was created as a total conceptual package. If you separate it from its talismanic power, you are missing the true impact. You can't "objectify" what was created as a spiritual tool.


I may well be missing "it's true impact" and, unless you are a fluent Latin speaker for a lot of the early stuff, I can't imagine what that impact would be. But what impact it has on me is quite sufficient for my intellectual and emotional needs.


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## Pat Fairlea

JamieHoldham said:


> I have been trying to talk to someone, but when I feel like it's the right thing to do I just cant do it.. it's difficult and I dont really want to be percived as being weak and not being able to handle anything on my own, thanks for the advice though.


Listen, this comes from first-hand personal experience. Talk to someone, anyone. Don't hide away and try to 'think' your way out of this depressed state. If any other organ of your body was malfunctioning a bit, you would not hesitate to get help. Would you put up with kidney stones without saying anything in case you were perceived as weak? Or angina? Of course not. But because it's your brain that is temporarily not quite right, rather than kidneys or heart, suddenly it seems different. Well it isn't. Talking to people, preferably people with whom you are not emotionally involved, will help and will certainly help you to get a better perspective on the world. Talk to your GP, and don't be afraid of 'pills' if that is what is recommended.

I put up with bouts of depression for years and years, often feeling exactly as you describe. Eventually I went to my GP, having been standing on a railway platform looking up at snow-covered hills one bitterly cold morning, thinking "I could just just walk up there and lay down in the snow and never have to go to work again". Fortunately, two functioning brain cells rang the alarm. To cut a long story short, my family and immediate friends know that I occasionally go down with depression and simply deal with it as necessary. Nobody (apart from one line-manager who was an a***hole) has ever treated me as 'weak' for having this occasional problem. And I take an anti-depressant daily in much the same way that many men of my generation take statins.

Don't hide away, do shout for help, and don't mistake a slightly malfunctioning organ for some significant trait of character. And if you need really cheering up and energising, I prescribe Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra or Beethoven's 7th, to be taken after food.


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> I may well be missing "it's true impact" and, unless you are a fluent Latin speaker for a lot of the early stuff, I can't imagine what that impact would be. But what impact it has on me is quite sufficient for my intellectual and emotional needs.


Then you shouldn't have to "qualify" your response with the disclaimer that you are a non-believer.


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## millionrainbows

Pat Fairlea said:


> Listen, this comes from first-hand personal experience. Talk to someone, anyone. Don't hide away and try to 'think' your way out of this depressed state. If any other organ of your body was malfunctioning a bit, you would not hesitate to get help. Would you put up with kidney stones without saying anything in case you were perceived as weak? Or angina? Of course not. But because it's your brain that is temporarily not quite right, rather than kidneys or heart, suddenly it seems different. Well it isn't. Talking to people, preferably people with whom you are not emotionally involved, will help and will certainly help you to get a better perspective on the world. Talk to your GP, and don't be afraid of 'pills' if that is what is recommended.
> 
> I put up with bouts of depression for years and years, often feeling exactly as you describe. Eventually I went to my GP, having been standing on a railway platform looking up at snow-covered hills one bitterly cold morning, thinking "I could just just walk up there and lay down in the snow and never have to go to work again". Fortunately, two functioning brain cells rang the alarm. To cut a long story short, my family and immediate friends know that I occasionally go down with depression and simply deal with it as necessary. Nobody (apart from one line-manager who was an a***hole) has ever treated me as 'weak' for having this occasional problem. And I take an anti-depressant daily in much the same way that many men of my generation take statins.
> 
> Don't hide away, do shout for help, and don't mistake a slightly malfunctioning organ for some significant trait of character. And if you need really cheering up and energising, I prescribe Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra or Beethoven's 7th, to be taken after food.


Watch out for the psychiatric industry, though, and don't tell anyone, I mean anyone, anything that you want to keep private. After all, people are just people, and they blab everything they hear to somebody else.

Besides that, they don't really understand what all these meds do. They just give them to people and watch the results, while the subject grows breasts.


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## Pat Fairlea

millionrainbows said:


> Watch out for the psychiatric industry, though, and don't tell anyone, I mean anyone, anything that you want to keep private. After all, people are just people, and they blab everything they hear to somebody else.
> 
> Besides that, they don't really understand what all these meds do. They just give them to people and watch the results, while the subject grows breasts.


No. Absolutely not. The functioning of SSRI anti-depressants, the usual first-choice for mild to moderate depression, is well understood and the incidence of significant side-effects in adults is minimal provided that they are taken as prescribed and not given up abruptly (i.e. come off them gradually). As for 'the subject grows breasts', that is unhelpful nonsense. These are medications that moderate neurotransmission: either point us to peer-reviewed published research to show that SSRIs can cause abnormal growth of breast tissue or please refrain from disseminating nonsense. This is not a matter for subjective opinion or dogma. Depression is a potentially lethal illness, sufferers from which need sound advice based on fact.


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## millionrainbows

Pat Fairlea said:


> No. Absolutely not. The functioning of SSRI anti-depressants, the usual first-choice for mild to moderate depression, is well understood and the incidence of significant side-effects in adults is minimal provided that they are taken as prescribed and not given up abruptly (i.e. come off them gradually).


No, there is much about the brain that is unknown. Your premise may be correct insofar as behavioral data is concerned, but the actual effects are still a mystery.



> As for 'the subject grows breasts', that is unhelpful nonsense.


No, it is not. Risperdal, used in manic depression, has been proven to cause gynechomastia in males. There are class-action lawsuits going on right now in America, which are well-advertised on television.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia



> These are medications that moderate neurotransmission: either point us to peer-reviewed published research to show that SSRIs can cause abnormal growth of breast tissue or please refrain from disseminating nonsense.


I did not specify SSRIs. You are mistakenly pursuing a false trail.



> This is not a matter for subjective opinion or dogma. Depression is a potentially lethal illness, sufferers from which need sound advice based on fact.


You came out of the woodwork rather quickly. Have you been in "stand-by" mode here in this forum for long?


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## Barbebleu

millionrainbows said:


> Then you shouldn't have to "qualify" your response with the disclaimer that you are a non-believer.


I wasn't so much qualifying my response as implying that those without faith can get something out of music written for those with. At least, that was my intention, if imperfectly expressed.


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> I wasn't so much qualifying my response as implying that those without faith can get something out of music written for those with. At least, that was my intention, if imperfectly expressed.


I think that is true as well; religious dogma is not necessary. However, I do think that one has to be "an embodied spirit" in order to reap the benefits, and not just a "floating mind."

Implicit in this is the understanding that we are all spiritual beings at our basic core, and that religion is just a tool (ideally) to enhance this. By "spiritual being" I mean something quite real and physical; we are beings who are more than merely "mind" and have an emotional, feeling base, as well as intuition which is not self-aware but simply "is."

This is the problem with atheists; their credo is ostensibly based on mind-constructs of the intellect, and they feel this is sufficient. They do not apparently recognize their own spiritual being, or at least do not see it as crucial that they articulate this being. If they did, there would be no need to deny other's beliefs (if those beliefs are properly and healthily aligned).


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## Barbebleu

Well perhaps atheist is the wrong attribution for me as I don't deny other's beliefs. On reflection, negative atheist or possibly agnostic may be a better indicator.

On a more positive note I have just listened to Allegri's Miserere on the radio. Always a joy to listen to even for those of us with a lack of spirituality!!


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## millionrainbows

Barbebleu said:


> Well perhaps atheist is the wrong attribution for me as I don't deny other's beliefs. On reflection, negative atheist or possibly agnostic may be a better indicator.
> 
> On a more positive note I have just listened to Allegri's Miserere on the radio. Always a joy to listen to even for those of us with a lack of spirituality!!


Oh, you are a "spirit" alright; you have been disembodied by space aliens called "Thetans" and just don't realize it.


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## Barbebleu

millionrainbows said:


> Oh, you are a "spirit" alright; you have been disembodied by space aliens called "Thetans" and just don't realize it.


I knew it! This explains everything.


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## Pat Fairlea

millionrainbows said:


> No, there is much about the brain that is unknown. Your premise may be correct insofar as behavioral data is concerned, but the actual effects are still a mystery.
> 
> No, it is not. Risperdal, used in manic depression, has been proven to cause gynechomastia in males. There are class-action lawsuits going on right now in America, which are well-advertised on television.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia
> 
> I did not specify SSRIs. You are mistakenly pursuing a false trail.
> 
> You came out of the woodwork rather quickly. Have you been in "stand-by" mode here in this forum for long?


No, I avoid hiding in woodwork. My point was that on first seeking help for depression one is most likely to be prescribed SSRI treatment, if drug treatment at all. Hence my focus on that class of medication. A few tricyclic anti-depressants appear to have an association with gynaecomastia, though as that condition can be triggered by a whole range of physiological conditions, some of which have depressed mood as a symptom, cause and effect would be very difficult to prove. My genuine concern is that casual remarks associating unspecified anti-depressants with significant side-effects might put someone off seeking the help that they need. 
And if listening to music or going for long walks in the countryside or playing dominoes can help to improve one's mood, then so much the better.


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## hpowders

JamieHoldham said:


> I dont know why, but when I listen to religous works - or some inspired by religion especially Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, and Bach's Mass in B Minor I just wish I could lie down and go to heaven, or not wake up the next time I go to bed - leave this world for something possibly greater? I just get a feeling that I cant really explain, I just want to die..
> 
> maybe it has something to do with my suicidal thoughts and depression, probally just me and I made a pointless thread.. if so sorry.


No. I don't feel that way, but what I do feel is a reassurance that we were not put here by accident, that there must be a reason for all this. The music you quoted gives me hope.

I also believe that music that sublime....no human could have composed it....without "help".


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## Woodduck

millionrainbows said:


> *This is the problem with atheists*; their *credo* is ostensibly based on *mind-constructs of the intellect, and they feel this is sufficient.* They *do not apparently recognize their own spiritual being*, or at least do not see it as crucial that they articulate this being. If they did, there would be no *need to deny other's beliefs* (if those beliefs are *properly and healthily aligned*).


And on and on we go.

Every sentence in this is prejudicial nonsense, and an offense against large numbers of people.

1.) There _is_ no "problem"with atheists.

2.) Atheism is not a "credo." It is simply the nonacceptance of a certain kind of "credo."

3.) "They" (atheists) are generally quite aware of the dimensions of human nature and experience which are not "based" on "mind-constructs."

4.) Nothing you may be referring to as one's "spiritual being" is necessarily outside the experience or knowledge of an atheist.

5.) There are many ways of "articulating" one's being.

6.) The need to refute beliefs one considers to be false arises, in various contexts, for _all_ thoughtful people, regardless of their particular beliefs.

Would it be apropos to ask why _you_ are so obsessed, and occupied day after day, with (inappropriately) filling this music forum with rants against others' beliefs? This strikes me as an activity which can hardly proceed from being "properly and healthily aligned."


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## Pat Fairlea

Woodduck said:


> And on and on we go.
> 
> Every sentence in this is prejudicial nonsense, and an offense against large numbers of people.
> 
> 1.) There _is_ no "problem"with atheists.
> 
> 2.) Atheism is not a "credo." It is simply the nonacceptance of a certain kind of "credo."
> 
> 3.) "They" (atheists) are generally quite aware of the dimensions of human nature and experience which are not "based" on "mind-constructs."
> 
> 4.) Nothing you may be referring to as one's "spiritual being" is necessarily outside the experience or knowledge of an atheist.
> 
> 5.) There are many ways of "articulating" one's being.
> 
> 6.) The need to refute beliefs one considers to be false arises, in various contexts, for _all_ thoughtful people, regardless of their particular beliefs.
> 
> Would it be apropos to ask why _you_ are so obsessed, and occupied day after day, with (inappropriately) filling this music forum with rants against other's beliefs? This strikes me as an activity which can hardly proceed from being "properly and healthily aligned."


Yes. What he said.


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## Varick

Woodduck said:


> 2.) Atheism is not a "credo." It is simply the nonacceptance of a certain kind of "credo."


My dear fellow, in all due respect (And I do have MUCH respect for you), Atheism is just as much of a credo as any religious person's belief system. It is based on a faith. And from that faith, influences on how one lives.

V


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## CypressWillow

JamieHoldham said:


> I dont know why, but when I listen to religous works - or some inspired by religion especially Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus, and Bach's Mass in B Minor I just wish I could lie down and go to heaven, or not wake up the next time I go to bed - leave this world for something possibly greater? I just get a feeling that I cant really explain, I just want to die..
> 
> maybe it has something to do with my suicidal thoughts and depression, probally just me and I made a pointless thread.. if so sorry.


Dear Jamie Holdham, There is no shame or stigma in having depressed and/or suicidal thoughts. They are thoughts, and there's no need to act upon them. If counseling by a qualified therapist is available, please by all means, do look into it. You can 'shop around' to ensure you get the 'right' therapist for you.
But aside from that, please know that many people experience such intense reactions to the beautiful music you mentioned. A longing for a better world, one that draws us like a powerful vision. I think it's akin to the reason many of us cry at weddings: we get a glimpse of a world where love and joy and selfless commitment to another is possible, and we are moved to tears, likely because the contrast between that ideal and our everyday reality is so poignant. 
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are not alone, please hold on, please be caring and gentle with yourself. let the powerful response you have to music be a gift in your life. 
Blessings and much good energy to you.


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