# Charles Dutoit: Our Next Casualty?



## Orfeo

Given the shock we've been having that James Levine stands accused of sexual abuses (which he denies), I had hopes that we have no other person we look up to with reverence and even adore to be accused of such a violation. But alas, Charles Dutoit stands next in the long line of accusations and revelations of his (supposed) misconducts in years past.

As a student of history, I have decided long ago not to dismiss the allegations of the victims off-hand, while not jump to conclusions and label the accused guilty until everyone has his or her day in court (which is what the judicial system is for, in particular). But this latest development is both sad and disquieting.

But please be advised that this article below is not an easy read.
-->http://time.com/5075834/charles-dutoit-sexual-assault-accusation/


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## amfortas

We should all want to be fair-minded and not jump to conclusions. Still, when you have multiple independent accusations like this, it's pretty compelling.


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## Becca

A relevant quote from the article "_...the AP spoke with their colleagues and friends, who confirmed that each of the women shared details of their experiences at the time._"


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## Eramire156

*Charles Dutoit accused...*

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ct-ent-sexual-harassment-charles-dutoit-chicago-symphony-1222-story.html


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## Phil loves classical

Whoa. He is my favourite conductor. But how could it change knowing this now? His versions of some of my favourite music was “definitive” for me.


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## KenOC

A randy old ****. What ya gonna do? He's 81 now.


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## Star

Just what do these guys think they are? This is not even mild flirting - it's assault!


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## KenOC

So bring criminal charges. Or file a civil suit. That's the way things are supposed to work.


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## Radames

Orfeo said:


> Given the shock we've been having that James Levine stands accused of sexual abuses (which he denies), I had hopes that we have no other person we look up to with reverence and even adore to be accused of such a violation. But alas, Charles Dutoit stands next in the long line of accusations and revelations of his (supposed) misconducts in years past.
> 
> As a student of history, I have decided long ago not to dismiss the allegations of the victims off-hand, while not jump to conclusions and label the accused guilty until everyone has his or her day in court (which is what the judicial system is for, in particular). But this latest development is both sad and disquieting.
> 
> But please be advised that this article below is not an easy read.
> -->http://time.com/5075834/charles-dutoit-sexual-assault-accusation/


I wasn't shocked by the Levine accusations. I had heard about the rumors years ago from a music critic. But no one is going to get any day in court. Trial by media is the current thing. No one wins that.


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## Phil loves classical

Radames said:


> I wasn't shocked by the Levine accusations. I had heard about the rumors years ago from a music critic. But no one is going to get any day in court. Trial by media is the current thing. No one wins that.


Robert King was sentenced to a few years in prison. This kind of crap has really been brought to light recently, and is shocking to me how rampant it is.


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## KenOC

"Renowned conductor Charles Dutoit has said allegations by a number of women of "forced physical contact" have "absolutely no basis in truth"...

"The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra (RPO) has cancelled its principal conductor and artistic director's appearances."

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42467406


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## Radames

Phil loves classical said:


> Robert King was sentenced to a few years in prison. This kind of crap has really been brought to light recently, and is shocking to me how rampant it is.


Who?

I found an interesting article here:

France wrestles with the line between seduction, harassment

http://nbc4i.com/2017/11/19/france-wrestles-with-the-line-between-seduction-harassment/

I'm sure Dutoit saw his actions as seduction, not harassment.


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## amfortas

Radames said:


> I'm sure Dutoit saw his actions as seduction, not harassment.


The behavior ascribed to him goes beyond harassment, to assault. Legally, how he viewed it is irrelevant.


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## Radames

amfortas said:


> The behavior ascribed to him goes beyond harassment, to assault. Legally, how he viewed it is irrelevant.


Legally we haven't heard Dutoit's side of the story, so we don't know the details. In the law both sides get to tell their side of the story to a jury or judge and then that jury or judge makes a decision. In cases like this the accusers get to tell their story and put it in the press for months or even years while the accused doesn't get to say anything because it might end up in court. That's why no one wins the trial by media.

Here's an article and note that it's by a woman:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/452960/metoo-trial-mob


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## Chatellerault

Phil loves classical said:


> Whoa. He is my favourite conductor. But how could it change knowing this now? His versions of some of my favourite music was "definitive" for me.


He's your favourite conductor, not your favourite guru for ethical behaviour in life.

I won't even begin a list of masterpieces written/played/conducted/painted/sculpted by persons of questionable ethics because the list would be too long


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## amfortas

Chatellerault said:


> He's your favourite conductor, not your favourite guru for ethical behaviour in life.
> 
> I won't even begin a list of masterpieces written/played/conducted/painted/sculpted by persons of questionable ethics because the list would be too long


Only two things are certain:
1) Each of us will make our own choice about how artists' lives influence our view of their work.
2) Each of us will disdain those who make a different choice.


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## Guest

Has Martha Argerich, his former wife, made any statements?


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## Guest

It's hard to imagine that anyone with this many accomplishments would risk it all for some abusive sexual activities.

Honors
1982 - Musician of the Year, Canadian Music Council
1982 - Great Montrealer
1984 - Doctor Honoris Causa, University of Montreal
1985 - Docteur en Musique, Laval University, Quebec
1988 - Canadian Music Council Medal
1988 - Officier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres (France)
1991 - Honorary Citizen of the City of Philadelphia
1994 - Diploma of Honor by the Canadian Conference of the Arts
1995 - Grand Officier de l'Ordre National du Québec
1996 - Commandeur de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres (France)
1996 - Doctorem Musicae, McGill University
2002 - Honorary Officer of the Order of Canada
2003 - Prize to the best foreign Conductor 2002, Music Critic's Association of Argentina
2007 - Médaille d'Or de la Ville de Lausanne
2009 - Artistic Advisor, Shanghai Symphony Orchestra
2010 - Co-Director of MISA Festival, Shanghai
2011 - Doctor of Music, Curtis Institute, Philadelphia
2012 - Guangzhou Opera House (China) - Honorary Artistic Advisor
2012 - The Musical Fund Society of Philadelphia - Tribute
2014 - Lifetime Achievement Award - ICMA (International Classical Music Awards), Warsaw[26]
2015 - Honorary Member of the Igor Stravinsky Foundation, Geneva
2016 - Honorary Committee Member of the Maurice Ravel Foundation, Paris
2016 - Koussevitzky Artist, Boston Symphony Orchestra (Tanglewood)
2016 - Nanjing University of the Arts, China: Lifetime Honorary Professor
2016 - Special Contribution Award,18th Shanghai International Arts Festival
2016 - Lauréat 2016, Fondation Vaudoise pour la Culture, Lausanne
2016 - Commander of the Ordre of Montreal
2017 - Royal Philharmonic Society Gold Medal[27]

Prizes
1971 - Edison Award, Amsterdam (Tchaikowsky Piano Concerto, Martha Argerich, RPO)
1972 - Grand Prix du Disque de l'Académie Charles Cros (Stravinsky The Soldier's Tale)
1973 - Grand Prix Spécial du 25ème Anniversaire de l'Académie du Disque Français (Honegger Le Roi David, Solistes de l'Opéra de Paris)
1978 - Premio della Critica Discografica Italiana (Paganini 6 Concerti per violino, Salvatore Accardo, LPO)
1978 - Prix Caecilia de l'Union de la Presse Musicale Belge (Paganini 6 Concerti per violino, Salvatore Accardo, LPO)
1981 - Grand Prix du Disque de l'Académie Charles Cros (Lalo, Caplet, Frédéric Lodéon, cello, Philharmonia Orchestra)
1981 - Grammy nomination (Chaminade, Ibert, etc., James Galway, flute, RPO)
1982 - Académie du Disque Français, Grand Prix du Disque (Fauré Pénélope, Orchestre Philharmonique de Monte-Carlo)
1982 - Prix Caecilia de l'Union de la Presse Musicale Belge (Fauré Pénélope)
1982 - Grand Prix du Disque de l'Académie Charles Cros (Fauré Pénélope)
1982 - High Fidelity International Record Critics Award (IRCA) (Fauré Pénélope)
1982 - Grammy nomination (Fauré Pénélope)
1982 - Grammy nomination (Rachmaninov Piano Concerto No 2, Schumann Piano Concerto, Alicia de Larrocha, RPO)
1982 - Grand Prix du Disque de l'Académie Charles Cros (Ravel Daphnis & Chloé, OSM)
1982 - Prix Mondial du Disque de Montreux (Ravel Daphnis & Chloé, OSM)
1982 - Prix Juno - Canada (Ravel Daphnis & Chloé, OSM)
1983 - Grand Prix du Disque, Canada (Ravel Daphnis & Chloé, OSM)
1983 - 21st Annual Japan Record Academy Award (Ravel Daphnis & Chloé, OSM)
1983 - Disque d'Or, Canada (Ravel Album, OSM)
1983 - Prix Félix (ADISQ) - Canada (Ravel Album, OSM)
1983 - Grand Prix de l'Académie du Disque Français (Saint-Saëns 5 Piano Concertos, Pascal Rogé, RPO, LPO, Philharmonia Orchestra)
1984 - Académie du Disque Français, Prix de la Musique Française (Saint-Saëns Symphony No 3 "Organ", OSM)
1984 - Académie du Disque Français, Mention Spéciale (Chabrier Le Roi malgré lui, Nouvel Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio-France)
1984 - Académie du Disque Français, Grand Prix Audio-visuel de l'Europe (Honegger Symphonies No 3 and No 5, Bayerische Rundfunk Orchestra, Munich)
1984 - Disque de Platine, Canada (Ravel Boléro, OSM)
1984 - Académie du Disque Français, Prix Georges-Auric (Falla El amor brujo, Three- ornered Hat, OSM)
1984 - High Fidelity International Record Critics Award (IRCA) (Falla Album, OSM)
1984 - Prix Manuel De Falla, Granada (Falla Album, OSM)
1984 - Grammy nomination (Noël, Noël with Leontyne Price, OSM)
1984 - Prix du Concerto Français de l'Académie du Disque, Paris (Ravel Piano Concertos, Pascal Rogé, OSM)
1984 - Edison Award, Amsterdam (Ravel Piano Concertos, Pascal Rogé, OSM)
1985 - Gramophone Record Award (Engineering and Production) (Ravel Album, OSM)
1985 - Prix Juno - Canada (Ravel Album, OSM)
1985 - Prix Félix (ADISQ) - Canada - Record of the year (Stravinsky The Rite of Spring + Symphonies of Winds, OSM)
1986 - Grand Prix du Président de la République, Académie Nationale du Disque Français, (Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, OSM)
1986 - Stereo Review, Record of the Year Award (Chabrier Le Roi malgré lui, Nouvel Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio-France)
1986 - Prix José Bruyr - Grand Prix du Disque de l'Académie Charles Cros (Honegger ymphonies No 2 and No 4, Bayerische Rundfunk, Munich)
1986 - Prix Félix (ADISQ) - Canada - Record of the year (Von Suppé Eight Overtures, OSM)
1987 - Gramophone Recording Award (Holst The Planets, OSM)
1987 - Grammy nomination (Holst The Planets, OSM)
1987 - Prix Juno - Canada (Holst The Planets, OSM)
1987 - Prix Caecilia de l'Union de la Presse Musicale Belge (Roussel Symphonies, Orchestre National de France)
1987 - Prix Félix (ADISQ) - Canada - Record of the year (Tchaikowsky Album, OSM)
1988 - Edison Award, Amsterdam (Holst The Planets, OSM)
1988 - Mumm Champagne Classical Music Award (Holst The Planets, OSM)
1988 - Grand Prix du Disque, Canada (Holst The Planets, OSM)
1988 - Laser d'Or, Académie du Disque Français (Stravinsky Petrushka, Chant du Rossignol, 4 Études, OSM)
1988 - Grand Prix du Disque, Canada (Stravinsky Petrushka, etc., OSM)
1989 - Prix Juno - Canada (Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta, OSM)
1990 - Prix Félix (ADISQ) - (Gershwin Album, Louis Lortie, piano, OSM)
1991 - Grand Prix de l'Académie du Disque, Japan (Debussy Album, OSM)
1991 - Prix Juno - Canada (Debussy Album, OSM)
1991 - Preis der Deutschen Schallplattenkritik, Germany (Debussy Pelléas & Mélisande, OSM)
1991 - Prix Félix (ADISQ) - Canada - Best record of the year (Debussy Pelléas & Mélisande, OSM)
1992 - Prix Juno - Canada (Debussy Pelléas & Mélisande, OSM)
1992 - Grammy nomination (Debussy Pelléas & Mélisande, OSM)
1994 - Nouvelle Académie du Disque: Grand Prix Anniversaire Tchaikowsky, Paris (The Complete Nutcracker, OSM)
1995 - Palmarès des Palmarès, Nouvelle Académie du Disque, Paris (Berlioz Les Troyens, OSM)
1995 - Académie française du Disque Lyrique, Orphée du Prestige Lyrique, Paris (Berlioz Les Troyens, OSM)
1995 - Grammy nomination for best Classical recording of the year (Berlioz Les Troyens, OSM)
1995 - Prix Juno - Best classical recording of the year (Berlioz Les Troyens, OSM)
1995 - Grammy: Best Opera Recording (Berlioz Les Troyens, OSM)
1995 - Grammy nomination, (Mussorgsky Pictures at an exhibition, OSM)
1996 - Grammy nomination (Rimsky-Korsakov Scheherazade, OSM)
1996 - Prix Juno - Canadian Academy of Recording and Sciences (Shostakovich Symphonies No 5 and No 9, OSM)
1997 - Prix Juno - Canada - Best recording of the year (Berlioz Damnation de Faust, OSM)
1997 - Palmarès des Palmarès, Paris: Grand Prix, Nouvelle Académie du Disque (Berlioz Damnation de Faust)
1997 - Prix de l'Académie du Disque, Japan (Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, OSM)
1997 - Prix de l'Académie du Disque, Japan (Debussy Album, OSM)
1999 - London / Decca Legends (Ravel Daphnis & Chloé, OSM)
2000 - Prix Juno - Canada (Respighi: La Boutique Fantasque, Impressioni Brasiliane, OSM)
2000 - Grammy: Best Soloist with Orchestra (Bartok Piano Concerto No 3, Prokofiev Concertos No 1 and No 3, Martha Argerich, OSM)
2002 - Prix Juno - Canada (Bruch 3 Violin Concertos, James Ehnes, OSM)
2004 - New York Times Best Classical Discs of the year (Theodorakis "Zorba", OSM)
2007 - Grammy nomination (Franck Symphonic Variations, Saint-Saëns Piano Concertos No 2 and No 5, Jean-Yves Thibaudet, Orchestre de la Suisse Romande OSR)
2 Grammy Awards: 1995 and 2000.
9 Grammy nominations: 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1987, 1992, 1995, 1996, and 2007.


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## Becca

Kontrapunctus said:


> It's hard to imagine that anyone with this many accomplishments would risk it all for some abusive sexual activities.


And that is exactly why it does tend to happen. It starts off when they are young and as their accomplishments increase, they start to feel that they are invulnerable and/or that the rules don't apply to them, also that lesser musicians should feel honored by the 'attention'.


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## Sonata

People in power abuse other people all the time. All. The. Time. Becca is spot on. I don't know the details of this case with Dutoit so I won't offer my opinion on it specifically. But please don't be naive.

And I could care less that he's 81. If someone is ultimately found guilty of a serious sexual or violent crime then their victims deserve for them to be held accountable for those crimes

No offense but I also find the thread title unsettling. Calling someone a casualty assigns victim status to them. If allegations are true then he is a perpetrator not a victim


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## Kraffy

It is disquieting, but there is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty


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## Radames

Kraffy said:


> It is disquieting, but there is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty


Not anymore. People get a trial by twitter mob now. Get with the times.


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## Radames

Kontrapunctus said:


> Has Martha Argerich, his former wife, made any statements?


Not that I have seen. But I did find this alleged incident that was also allegedly witness by her:



> The pianist Jenny Q Chai has contacted Slipped Disc with an allegation that the Swiss conductor Charles Dutoit molested her in Philadelphia after a concert. She says that his daughter and ex-wife witnessed the incident.
> 
> Here is Jenny's story:
> 
> 'When I was 17, still a student at Curtis, I went to see Charles Dutoit and (Martha) Argerich with Philadelphia orchestra, after the concert, I went back stage to see Argerich.
> 
> 'Instead of her, Dutoit greeted me with the utmost friendliness, wrote Love and big kisses and signed my program, then ran his hands all over my body and tried to kiss me and stick his tongue in my mouth.
> 
> 'Many schoolmates saw too.
> 
> 'I was grossed out and in fact quite traumatized, as a 17 year old musician. I think I'm ready to speak up openly only now, 17 years later.
> 
> 'Many male students just laughed and joked that they will see me making out with him the next day at Curtis. Which made me feel embarrassed. Like I did something wrong. So I didn't say anything more about it.
> 
> 'My schoolmates' reactions made me feel like it was all my fault. As if I was trying to climb the power ladder or something.
> 
> 'Argerich and their daughter was there. They saw it happening! They just gave a look. Like kind of a disgusted, but it's normal kind of a look.'
> 
> Jenny did not report the incident at Curtis. She changed the way she dressed, went into therapy and is still oppressed by the sight of Dutoit, who is now 81.
> 
> Four women have recounted assaults by Dutoit to the Associated Press. A fifth described her Dutoit encounter last night on Slipped Disc.
> 
> US orchestras have swiftly ended their contacts with Dutoit. There has been no public response from the conductor.


http://slippedisc.com/2017/12/charles-dutoit-a-sixth-assault-is-reported/


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## amfortas

When I was in my late teens, the best acting teacher I ever had did much the same thing. He would grope any pretty new female student, trying to get her to sleep with him. I don't know if he was ever successful (aside from his boorish behavior, he was phenomenally ugly). Some young women turned him down and immediately quit his program; others shrugged it off, stayed, and came to value him as a teacher. At the time, it was all largely accepted as part of his highly flawed but brilliant personality.

Looking back, I'm sorry I was somehow able to find the whole thing acceptable--as if it were no big deal. I'm sure it wouldn't have seemed so innocuous if he had come on to *me* that way, or to my daughter or sister. I'm not sure what I could or should have done back then, especially in a time when sexual harassment was more tolerated. But I do have to live with the fact that I did nothing. At the same time, my feelings are complicated by my still looking at the man as a great teacher and mentor. 

Such is life.


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## Bulldog

Radames said:


> Who?


Robert King is a British conductor of early and baroque; I find him outstanding for his Handel recordings. Anyways, King was convicted of the sexual assault of 5 minors. He's out of jail now and continues to record and perform in public. Has my opinion of the man changed through his conviction? Definitely, but my opinion of his musical worth hasn't.


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## Sonata

amfortas said:


> When I was in my late teens, the best acting teacher I ever had did much the same thing. He would grope any pretty new female student, trying to get her to sleep with him. I don't know if he was ever successful (aside from his boorish behavior, he was phenomenally ugly). Some young women turned him down and immediately quit his program; others shrugged it off, stayed, and came to value him as a teacher. At the time, it was all largely accepted as part of his highly flawed but brilliant personality.
> 
> Looking back, I'm sorry I was somehow able to find the whole thing acceptable--as if it were no big deal. I'm sure it wouldn't have seemed so innocuous if he had come on to *me* that way, or to my daughter or sister. I'm not sure what I could or should have done back then, especially in a time when sexual harassment was more tolerated. But I do have to live with the fact that I did nothing. At the same time, my feelings are complicated by my still looking at the man as a great teacher and mentor.
> 
> Such is life.


Thank you for sharing amfortas. It's good that you're willing to reevaluate a situation like that with new eyes.


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## Radames

Becca said:


> And that is exactly why it does tend to happen. It starts off when they are young and as their accomplishments increase, they start to feel that they are invulnerable and/or that the rules don't apply to them, also that lesser musicians should feel honored by the 'attention'.


Look at the story I posted above. Allegedly lots of people saw what Dutoit did and no one said anything or complained about it. So he didn't think it was a problem. Or maybe she just exaggerated what he did. Possibly he only gave her the cheek kiss greeting? I've had a woman do that to me. I don't like it but I didn't consider it harassment.

Look what happened at the 2003 Oscars when Adrian Brody kissed Halle Berry without her permission. No one called the cops. Brody wasn't banned from films.



Bulldog said:


> Robert King is a British conductor of early and baroque; I find him outstanding for his Handel recordings. Anyways, King was convicted of the sexual assault of 5 minors. He's out of jail now and continues to record and perform in public. Has my opinion of the man changed through his conviction? Definitely, but my opinion of his musical worth hasn't.


He actually got a trial. What a luxury. Then he got a finite sentence and was allowed to continue with his life. Should that be allowed?


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## Bulldog

Radames said:


> He actually got a trial. What a luxury. Then he got a finite sentence and was allowed to continue with his life. Should that be allowed?


King served his time and was released from prison. That usually means that he can get on with his life. Want to beat him up? Actually, that's not a bad idea. From what I've read, there are no restrictions on him concerning interaction with children.


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## amfortas

Radames said:


> Look at the story I posted above. Allegedly lots of people saw what Dutoit did and no one said anything or complained about it. So he didn't think it was a problem. Or maybe she just exaggerated what he did. Possibly he only gave her the cheek kiss greeting? I've had a woman do that to me. I don't like it but I didn't consider it harassment.
> 
> Look what happened at the 2003 Oscars when Adrian Brody kissed Halle Berry without her permission. No one called the cops. Brody wasn't banned from films.


Exactly. Dutoit was probably jubilant from just having won a major award. That would explain everything.


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## Radames

Bulldog said:


> King served his time and was released from prison. That usually means that he can get on with his life. Want to beat him up? Actually, that's not a bad idea. From what I've read, there are no restrictions on him concerning interaction with children.


Usually being on the sex offender registry keeps you from even living near a school. I looked this case up and see the judge's reasoning:


> The case of Robert King has unique ramifications. The judge recognised some of these when not ruling against any future work with children. King, as a married man with a young child, was deemed to have entered a new phase in his life. And this decision is crucial to anyone who works with early vocal music. To be debarred for life from working with the male treble voice would have been a harsh fate.


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/jun/16/featuresreviews.guardianreview15

I don't think I would have been that lenient as a judge. He really shouldn't be allowed to work with children. We had a case in my area a decade ago where a pedophile who had gone through treatment ended up raping and killing his niece.


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## Bulldog

Radames said:


> I don't think I would have been that lenient as a judge. He really shouldn't be allowed to work with children. We had a case in my area a decade ago where a pedophile who had gone through treatment ended up raping and killing his niece.


I'm with you. Unfortunately, the judge saw King as a victim of his own criminal activity. That's nuts!


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## Guest

Dutoit steps down from Royal Phil.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...c-orchestra-conductor-quits-over-abuse-claims


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## Pugg

Tulse said:


> Dutoit steps down from Royal Phil.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...c-orchestra-conductor-quits-over-abuse-claims


They left him no choice , best thing to do.


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## KenOC

Sonata said:


> No offense but I also find the thread title unsettling. Calling someone a casualty assigns victim status to them. If allegations are true then he is a perpetrator not a victim


Ummm... "Casualty: a person or thing badly affected by an event or situation." I think that's pretty accurate. There's no moral judgment involved, no suggestion of victimhood (or the opposite).


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## Orfeo

^^^
Exactly...........


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## Becca

KenOC said:


> Ummm... "Casualty: a person or thing badly affected by an event or situation." I think that's pretty accurate. There's no moral judgment involved, no suggestion of victimhood (or the opposite).


There is a BIG difference between being affected by an event and being the cause of the situation, so yes, using casualty does imply being a victim of circumstances.


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## Orfeo

Becca said:


> There is a BIG difference between being affected by an event and being the cause of the situation, so yes, using casualty does imply being a victim of circumstances.


Well, more often than not, there are people who stand wrongly accused of something they did not do. So therefore, they are victims (of the false accusation(s) and of circumstances). Dutoit may well be that victim, as facts are still unfolding and the truth behind what really happened remains, for now at least, elusive (and Dutoit, by the way, denies those allegations). KenOC is right, and note the question mark at the end of the thread title. That question mark denotes a deliberate refusal on my part to pass moral judgment involved or suggest guilt without knowing all the facts and without the court of law to decide one way or another whether Dutoit is guilty. At the same time, I am not dismissing the claims of the alleged victims either.

So I am going to remain in the middle of this.


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## KenOC

Dutoit is a casualty regardless of his actions. In fact, he may well be a casualty of his own actions. Either way, he is a casualty.

"Among the casualties is the engineer, who was at the controls when the train entered the curve at twice the posted speed..."


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## Becca

KenOC said:


> "Among the casualties is the engineer, who was at the controls when the train entered the curve at twice the posted speed..."


That is using 'casualty' in a medical sense (injured or dead) which is a different thing entirely.


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## KenOC

Becca said:


> That is using 'casualty' in a medical sense (injured or dead) which is a different thing entirely.


I will only say, it's not at all different. Aside from the way _you _choose to construe the word, I don't think there is any evidence to support your position. The definition I posted earlier is direct from an on-line dictionary.


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## Becca

...post deleted, not worth the effort


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## Oldhoosierdude

When are any of these famous,accused men going to be convicted in a court of law? The answer of course is never. Which is unjust if they are guilty.

Of course we all realize that now all it takes is accusation to get rid of a pesky boss/celebrity/political opponent/rival/some guy we just don't like. But thats Ok, he's probably guilty anyway.


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## Radames

Here's the latest:



> *Met Opera Fires Stage Director, Citing 'Inappropriate Behavior'*
> 
> The Metropolitan Opera fired the veteran British stage director John Copley this week after receiving a complaint about what the company described as "inappropriate behavior in the rehearsal room."
> 
> Mr. Copley, 84, has been one of the opera world's foremost directors for decades. He was at the Met directing a revival of his 1990 production of Rossini's "Semiramide" when a member of the chorus reported that Mr. Copley had made him uncomfortable at a rehearsal on Friday with a sexually charged remark, according to two people familiar with the complaint.
> 
> The Met said in a statement that "following a complaint from a chorister about inappropriate behavior in the rehearsal room that was received on Monday, Jan. 29, John Copley is no longer directing the revival of 'Semiramide' that will open on Feb. 19."
> 
> William Guerri, Mr. Copley's manager at Columbia Artists, could not immediately be reached for comment.
> 
> The news of the firing stunned the opera world, and a number of prominent British critics and singers who have worked with him complained on social media that it seemed like an overreaction.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/...atedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

Another victim of the PC culture juggernaut. Where will it take us? I hope at some point the people who donate large sums of money to these organizations refuse to go along with this and stop giving money. That will put an end to it. I am not a subscriber to the Boston Symphony, but if I were I would cancel my subscription and send a note in saying that I would be happy to renew if Maestro Dutiot was given some kind of due process.


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