# Get Video Games Music into the Classic FM Hall of Fame



## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Just TWO WEEKS of voting left! If you want to help video game music make a splash in the annual Classic FM Hall of Fame again:

1: Head to Vote for your favourite classical piece | Hall of Fame | Classic FM

2: Vote for your three favourite ORCHESTRAL video game scores! If you're voting for an individual piece try to mention the game name as well as this is what your vote will count towards.

Easy! Don't forget this year many scores are lumped together into one entry, including last year's #3 (Final Fantasy Series, Nobuo Uematsu) and #5 (Elder Scrolls Series, Jeremy Soule).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I love the irony that this is posted in the non-classical music forum.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't want to help you because they don't belong there.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> I love the irony that this is posted in the non-classical music forum.


Has he become an agent for that lot?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Piwikiwi said:


> I don't want to help you because they don't belong there.


BAHAHAHAHAHA!! Spot on.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

LordBlackudder said:


> Just TWO WEEKS of voting left! If you want to help video game music make a splash in the annual Classic FM Hall of Fame again:
> 
> 1: Head to Vote for your favourite classical piece | Hall of Fame | Classic FM
> 
> ...


Are you trolling? If so, I do appreciate your sense of humour and if not... My apologies in advance.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Piwikiwi said:


> I don't want to help you because they don't belong there.


Yeah, composers like Uematsu are too good to be lumped in with tripe like Mozart and Rachmaninoff. Too much imagination employed.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Nobuo Uematsu*

Uematsu Music = Oooh my gaaaaawwwwd!!! A GIANT [email protected]!ng mecha-spider is chasing meeee!!! AAAAAAHHHHH!!!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Yeah, composers like Uematsu are too good to be lumped in with tripe like Mozart and Rachmaninoff. Too much imagination employed.


Final Fantasy is part of my youth and I like Uematsu's music, but that's beyond ridiculous.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

*an only slightly careful read...*

A slightly careful read will show you that somehow thinking somehow a vote _in a popularity poll_ will actually push make that orchestrated video game score push through enough to gain "classical music status" is more than naive, and is a misreading which blows that notion away in one moment....

*"1: Head to Vote for your favourite classical piece | Hall of Fame | Classic FM."*

Pumping up something via a vote to the status of "A classic." does not have the force to convert a video or film score into classical music 

P.s. when a video or film score is considered by the classical music community and industry at large as classical music, I'm sure it will be news, and we will all hear of it. Until then, a LITE Classical radio station popularity poll is not going to change a thing, other than that station knowing better what to play to keep their listeners and the station's financial supports.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Classic FM's Hall of Fame is a joke anyway. Who cares what gets in or not?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Classic FM's Hall of Fame is a joke anyway. Who cares what gets in or not?


It seems the OP believes it real enough that it could upgrade Video Game scores to "classical status."

The fact Classic FM is an infamous lite pops classical affair heavily discredits it, and it makes those lists they come up with a real joke.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> It seems the OP believes it real enough that it could upgrade Video Game scores to "classical status."


Um...why shouldn't video game scores be considered "classical music"? (And, to add, why is that an "upgrade"?)


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

PetrB said:


> It seems the OP believes it real enough that it could upgrade Video Game scores to "classical." LOL.


Only the fact that you can vote on the piece makes it "classical" by the Classic FM's strandard. The OP wants it to be in the _Hall of Fame_ of classical music.



PetrB said:


> when a video or film score is considered by the classical music community and industry at large as classical music, I'm sure it will be news, and we will all hear of it.


So, are you saying that John Cage's music for _Works of Calder_ or the soundtrack of _Koyaanisqatsi_ cannot be regarded as "classical music", regardless of the fact thay both are in the same style of other compositions by their respective composers?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

FleshRobot said:


> Only the fact that you can vote on the piece makes it "classical" by the Classic FM's strandard. The OP wants it to be in the _Hall of Fame_ of classical music.
> 
> So, are you saying that John Cage's music for _Works of Calder_ or the soundtrack of _Koyaanisqatsi_ cannot be regarded as "classical music", regardless of the fact thay both are in the same style of other compositions by their respective composers?


I'm certain there is a thread dedicated to the "is it classical" question re: film and video game music. Each, time, from the massive oeuvre of all classical music, the same group of a tiny minority of film scores and incidental music for theater and ballet written by career classical composers is cited in the Pro side of argument to qualify film and video scores as classical.

Just as there is no quick 'n' easy set of criteria to qualify what is classical, the same goes for what isn't 

The real answer is to have listened to enough within the genre, tons of it from over centuries, and then at some point the person who has listened to those tons of pieces will readily recognize the difference between a utility score written for films by a classical composer and a deft score written for similar function which is more a highly derivative composite amalgam based on an olio of familiarity of classical repertoire than anything else.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The real answer is to have listened to enough within the genre, tons of it over centuries, and at some point, the person who has listened to those tons of pieces will readily recognize the difference between a utility score written for films by a classical composer and a deft score to similar function which is a highly derivative composite amalgam based on an olio of familiarity of classical repertoire.


Sadly, some of us have insufficiently refined tastes and must muddle through as best we can!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Sadly, some of us have insufficiently refined tastes and must muddle through as best we can!


Regardless of the amount of "data" one has inputted, based on that and as best we can, it is still all a muddle


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Final Fantasy is part of my youth and I like Uematsu's music, but that's beyond ridiculous.


No its not. Uematsu has written incredibly beautiful music that is imaginative and full of personality. Mozart is an over-rated composer of mostly decent music, from a period where extremely homogenous writing was standard. Just because its popular opinion doesn't make it truth.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> No its not. Uematsu has written incredibly beautiful music that is imaginative and full of personality. Mozart is an over-rated composer of mostly decent music, from a period where extremely homogenous writing was standard. Just because its popular opinion doesn't make it truth.


You got to be joking. Just because you don't like mozart doesn't mean that he is overrated


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

BurningDesire said:


> No its not. Uematsu has written incredibly beautiful music that is imaginative and full of personality. Mozart is an over-rated composer of mostly decent music, from a period where extremely homogenous writing was standard. Just because its popular opinion doesn't make it truth.


What-what-what? I am not a Mozart fan either but to say that he's "an overrated composer of mostly decent music" is beyond... You're trolling right? BAHAHAHAHA! You had me going there for a second! BRAVO, old boy!


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

The Hall of Fame is a guilty pleasure of mine and I do listen every year with excitement as the winners are announced. I love the suspense of whether _Lark Ascending_ will be pipped to the post by Rach PC 2. This year I will be voting for _Winterreise_ (which by the way never makes the top 300, lol...)


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Lope de Aguirre said:


> What-what-what? I am not a Mozart fan either but to say that he's "an overrated composer of mostly decent music" is beyond... You're trolling right? BAHAHAHAHA! You had me going there for a second! BRAVO, old boy!


I'm not trolling at all. I mean, I'm not being genuine when I call Mozart "crap" or "tripe" but he is most certainly over-rated. He wrote some great music, but nothing anywhere near earning him the kind of absurd praise he constantly is bestowed. I find Uematsu infinitely superior. And I'm a girl, not a boy


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I hate to repeat myself, even if it has been the best part of a year since I said it, but:



Crudblud said:


> What I dislike most about the idea of VG music as classical music is that it is coming from a small but vocal minority who have bought in to the falsehood that classical music is _superior_ music. The idea that a composer must be "classical" in order to be valid is really what guides the whole idea; it is an attempt to, by some arcane system of quantification, raise a particular music to the height of another simply so that they who listen to it can appear to be superior by some order of magnitude to those who do not. It's the working class man sitting down in a café with some bourgeois elite for some expensive coffee that he doesn't even like the taste of for the sake of having felt like he "made it", and more importantly so he can tell everyone that he did. A culture of imagined inadequacy, a mass inferiority complex, call it what you will it is not endemic to listeners of VG music, we have observed that certain listeners of film music too feel the need to strive for the top of this imaginary ladder of cultural value, as do certain portions of the audience for heavy metal music.
> 
> I love a good deal of "classic" VG music, mostly of games that I grew up playing, although there are games that I never really played much of, or perhaps never even liked, which I find myself listening to as well. There are also games that I love whose soundtracks I do not care for in the slightest, Harry Gregson Williams' work on the _Metal Gear Solid_ series being a prime example. But love it, hate it or merely tolerate or ignore it, I have never found myself wanting to have my taste validated by others, though I may be an anomaly in this bizarre aspirational culture of ours which encourages us to act as though the prime reason for doing anything is to be appointed a status. It's incredibly petty and really quite sad. VG music is VG music, some of it is good, some of it is bad, but it is only ever good or bad VG music, one sub-spectrum of music as a whole, and there's no reason to pretend otherwise.


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

> There are also games that I love whose soundtracks I do not care for in the slightest, Harry Gregson Williams' work on the Metal Gear Solid series being a prime example.


I thought the random no-name composer they had for Metal Gear Solid 1 was far superior myself!

A lot of video game music just seems really bland to me. I like Uematsu and what I've heard from Jesper Kyd though.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> I'm not trolling at all. I mean, I'm not being genuine when I call Mozart "crap" or "tripe" but he is most certainly over-rated. He wrote some great music, but nothing anywhere near earning him the kind of absurd praise he constantly is bestowed. I find Uematsu infinitely superior. And I'm a girl, not a boy


I think you confuse nostalgia from playing the games with the quality of the music. Or maybe you just haven't listened enough to Mozart and Rachmaninoff.  
What about other classical composers then? Is Uematse infinitely superior to others as well? Or just to Mozart and Rachmaninoff because you have a problem with them?


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> What I dislike most about the idea of VG music as classical music is that it is coming from a small but vocal minority who have bought in to the falsehood that classical music is superior music. The idea that a composer must be "classical" in order to be valid is really what guides the whole idea; it is an attempt to, by some arcane system of quantification, raise a particular music to the height of another simply so that they who listen to it can appear to be superior by some order of magnitude to those who do not. It's the working class man sitting down in a café with some bourgeois elite for some expensive coffee that he doesn't even like the taste of for the sake of having felt like he "made it", and more importantly so he can tell everyone that he did. A culture of imagined inadequacy, a mass inferiority complex, call it what you will it is not endemic to listeners of VG music, we have observed that certain listeners of film music too feel the need to strive for the top of this imaginary ladder of cultural value, as do certain portions of the audience for heavy metal music.
> 
> I love a good deal of "classic" VG music, mostly of games that I grew up playing, although there are games that I never really played much of, or perhaps never even liked, which I find myself listening to as well. There are also games that I love whose soundtracks I do not care for in the slightest, Harry Gregson Williams' work on the Metal Gear Solid series being a prime example. But love it, hate it or merely tolerate or ignore it, I have never found myself wanting to have my taste validated by others, though I may be an anomaly in this bizarre aspirational culture of ours which encourages us to act as though the prime reason for doing anything is to be appointed a status. It's incredibly petty and really quite sad. VG music is VG music, some of it is good, some of it is bad, but it is only ever good or bad VG music, one sub-spectrum of music as a whole, and there's no reason to pretend otherwise.


That might be true, but you still haven't explained _why_ VG or film music isn't classical. I personally prefer the music of Charles Mingus and Robert Johnson to the music of Antonio Salieri, and I still recognize that the first two are arguably "popular" while the other is "classical". Still, I belive that such division should be based on the music itself, not the context of it's use. And the soundtrack of composers such as Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, Roszá and Glass, among others, certanly fit the "classical" category better than the "popular" one.


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## Matsps (Jan 13, 2014)

I've never heard a music score for a video game that can rival something like a Rachmaninoff piano concerto. I think one reason for this and why I perhaps never will, is that music with that amount going on harmonically, dynamically, rhythmically and melodically doesn't work in a video game. The music is supposed to compliment the game, not completely distract you from it.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Matsps said:


> I've never heard a music score for a video game that can rival something like a Rachmaninoff piano concerto. I think one reason for this and why I perhaps never will, is that music with that amount going on harmonically, dynamically, rhythmically and melodically doesn't work in a video game. The music is supposed to compliment the game, not completely distract you from it.


People have this bizarre and absurd view that if a piece of music is interesting, and in a film or game, it distracts from the game or film its in. IT DOES NOT DO THAT. When you're watching something with an interesting and compelling story, with bland music that just sorta compliments it, then you can enjoy the story well I suppose, but if you're into this compelling story and you're listening to amazing music at the same time, it makes the experience incredible. "Classical" pieces have been used plenty of times in the new context of films, animation, and video games, and have worked extremely effectively. I think that pretty much puts a damper on this whole theory.

On a side note, plenty of video game music is harmonically and melodically simple (but since when is the qualification for something being good? or classical? Beethoven's 5th Symphony is harmonically and melodically simple, that doesn't make it any less amazing). Plenty of game music is quite interesting and sophisticated in its own right from harmonic and other theoretical standpoints.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

DeepR said:


> I think you confuse nostalgia from playing the games with the quality of the music.


This is a very good point. For instance, I love Jeremy Soule because listening to the Morrowind soundtrack is not only a nice musical experience, but recalls to me scenery from the games I loved. However, if Jeremy Soule or Uematsu were merely classical composers with no vivid video game imagery backing their music, would we really care about either of them at all?

I am certainly in the minority that actually never played a final fantasy game. However, this minority is useful, as I can actually listen to Uematsu in an unbiased manner. And I have. And yes, it's nice. And no, it doesn't belong anywhere near works of Mozart or Rachmaninoff.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

DeepR said:


> I think you confuse nostalgia from playing the games with the quality of the music. Or maybe you just haven't listened enough to Mozart and Rachmaninoff.
> What about other classical composers then? Is Uematse infinitely superior to others as well? Or just to Mozart and Rachmaninoff because you have a problem with them?


It has nothing to do with nostalgia. I loved the music when I first heard it in the games. I would memorize how the music sounded and play it back in my head, I would wait around in places in the game and not do anything except listen to the score Uematsu had written. There are pieces from those games that I like more than others. And there are games, such as my favorite game of all time Kingdom Hearts (music by Yoko Shimomura), and one of my other most favorite games Tales of Symphonia (music by Motoi Sakuraba and Shinji Tamura), where the music is okay, but nothing special. By your logic, these being games I like immensely, and from my past, I should love this music purely out of nostalgia, but thats not the case. I enjoy music like Uematsu's because it is incredible, beautiful, fantastic music.

I'm sure I could come up with other composers I think he's better than. Not really among composers that I really like, I don't really rank them. Like I might say he's considerably better than Handel, but I wouldn't say he's better than Ives, or Beethoven, or Boulez, or Chopin, because I like them all alot. I wouldn't say any one of those composers is clearly better than any other because I don't really think that way o3o


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

BurningDesire said:


> It has nothing to do with nostalgia. I loved the music when I first heard it in the games. I would memorize how the music sounded and play it back in my head, I would wait around in places in the game and not do anything except listen to the score Uematsu had written. There are pieces from those games that I like more than others. And there are games, such as my favorite game of all time Kingdom Hearts (music by Yoko Shimomura), and one of my other most favorite games Tales of Symphonia (music by Motoi Sakuraba and Shinji Tamura), where the music is okay, but nothing special. By your logic, these being games I like immensely, and from my past, I should love this music purely out of nostalgia, but thats not the case. I enjoy music like Uematsu's because it is incredible, beautiful, fantastic music.
> 
> I'm sure I could come up with other composers I think he's better than. Not really among composers that I really like, I don't really rank them. Like I might say he's considerably better than Handel, but I wouldn't say he's better than Ives, or Beethoven, or Boulez, or Chopin, because I like them all alot. I wouldn't say any one of those composers is clearly better than any other because I don't really think that way o3o


The issue of nostalgia is not this black and white. We are not saying that you must love the music because you love the game, but are you actually telling me that, if Final Fantasy never existed, and you randomly found some CD by Uematsu (a modern composer of absolute music?), you would rank it amongst the classical greats?


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> This is a very good point. For instance, I love Jeremy Soule because listening to the Morrowind soundtrack is not only a nice musical experience, but recalls to me scenery from the games I loved. However, if Jeremy Soule or Uematsu were merely classical composers with no vivid video game imagery backing their music, would we really care about either of them at all?
> 
> I am certainly in the minority that actually never played a final fantasy game. However, this minority is useful, as I can actually listen to Uematsu in an unbiased manner. And I have. And yes, it's nice. And no, it doesn't belong anywhere near works of Mozart or Rachmaninoff.


If I may add another blow against this argument, I have never played many of the Final Fantasy games, such as the quite famous Final Fantasy VI. I don't know anything about the story, the scenery, the characters. Nothing. And I adore the music Uematsu wrote for it. I want to play the game because the music is so amazing, it makes me want to see its muse. Its like how I want to read the symbolist poetry that inspired Debussy. So yeah, I care for his music without any game associations. It may not be the case with you, but I listen to music for music. I don't listen so I can recall imagery, I can do that fine without music.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

I see. But you still don't think much of Mozart so...k I'm leaving


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

BurningDesire said:


> If I may add another blow against this argument, I have never played many of the Final Fantasy games, such as the quite famous Final Fantasy VI. I don't know anything about the story, the scenery, the characters. Nothing. And I adore the music Uematsu wrote for it. I want to play the game because the music is so amazing, it makes me want to see its muse. Its like how I want to read the symbolist poetry that inspired Debussy. So yeah, I care for his music without any game associations. It may not be the case with you, but I listen to music for music. I don't listen so I can recall imagery, I can do that fine without music.


Not much of a blow btw, because here's a counter: I enjoy the soundtracks to Oblivion and Skyrim but have never played either - however, if it weren't for my love of Morrowind and its soundtrack, I doubt I would find as much value in the composer's general style. Answer my question about what you would think of Uematsu (if his music would even be on the map) without ANY video games.

Another thing: I think one day you may come to appreciate that which you do not understand. I don't mean that you will eventually come to understand Mozart and thus appreciate him, but that you will be able to appreciate things you don't necessarily like in general. A prime example for me is that I probably enjoy the music of Edvard Grieg more than a lot of the music of Richard Wagner, but I would still be very hesitant to say that these levels of enjoyment make Grieg as good of a composer (or better) than Wagner.

Now, on a related note, so you don't feel constantly attacked or whatever (you shouldn't), has Uematsu done any orchestration of his own work? I'm very skeptical of the orchestrations of others in this particular area, but would love to hear some more acoustic sounds from Uematsu (I enjoy his piano collections). Also, Koji Kondo? Cuz who doesn't love some Zelda.


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## Matsps (Jan 13, 2014)

> Beethoven's 5th Symphony is harmonically and melodically simple


Are we talking about the same symphony here? Harmonically maybe yes, but melodically?



> On a side note, plenty of video game music is harmonically and melodically simple (but since when is the qualification for something being good? or classical?


I wouldn't say it's necessary for something to be good, but my experience with video game music is basically as follows:

Sheet music placed in front of me by a friend/family member and it says on the score music from 'game name'. What follows is usually me sight reading it or learning it very fast, playing it and then being like meh. I mean yeah it's ok music but it's usually generally quite boring harmony with often just a single melody line in the right hand, with maybe the odd 4 or 8 bar section here and there of interest. Now, I don't know if all video game music is like that, but I've had lots of sheets from lots of games placed in front of me over the years and they are pretty much all like this.

Edit:

Well what separates this from great classical composers is that the harmony of the great classical composers will be generally more ambitious and interesting, rather than being so predictable. They also are often putting in melodies in both hands, or shared across hands. It's rare to get sections that have only a single melody. Often, there are (unfortunately for the player) so many melodies to bring out you really have a hard time of balancing everything.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> This is a very good point. For instance, I love Jeremy Soule because listening to the Morrowind soundtrack is not only a nice musical experience, but recalls to me scenery from the games I loved. However, if Jeremy Soule or Uematsu were merely classical composers with no vivid video game imagery backing their music, would we really care about either of them at all?


Being of a generation who has only heard of, and heard, some of the music from the various video game composers but never having even seen the actual games, I have yet to hear any part of it which I did not find either blatantly derivative -- and far less interesting than what it is derivative of -- or just flat out contemporary pop of the mildest quality.

I did essay a go at Joe Hisaishi's _Howl's moving castle_ concert suite. The first segment had me rattling off a check-list of composers from which each subsequent idea seemed to have been cribbed, the rest went to saccherine sweet ethnic-flavored flute melodies, or some similar fare. I was greatly underwhelmed with what I heard.

Any of the _Final fantasy_ score bits I've heard seemed even less well-done and "worse." There is a lot of sentiment for this music for some, and having played the games or not, I think it has something to do with 'youth' and less classical repertoire in memory -- including many repeated listens to that repertoire -- with which to compare it. The _Legend of Zelda_ concert suite has similar fare, and I found that even more paper thin, or to be more honest, a complete turn-off.

So far, I've ended up fast forwarding (spot-checking) through any of this music I've looked into on youtube, and often stopped doing even that after one or two segments, having gotten (trust me) the full musical picture, as it were.

That leads me to think there is very little hope my ears will hear any more recommended pieces, links thereto, much differently.

The over-reactionary comments from the crowd who say such things as, 'these scores are as musically interesting and great as some of the classical composer's music' are also, I think, something only 'youth' would think to say without thinking it -- seriously -- just funny.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Not much of a blow btw, because here's a counter: I enjoy the soundtracks to Oblivion and Skyrim but have never played either - however, if it weren't for my love of Morrowind and its soundtrack, I doubt I would find as much value in the composer's general style. Answer my question about what you would think of Uematsu (if his music would even be on the map) without ANY video games.
> 
> Another thing: I think one day you may come to appreciate that which you do not understand. I don't mean that you will eventually come to understand Mozart and thus appreciate him, but that you will be able to appreciate things you don't necessarily like in general. A prime example for me is that I probably enjoy the music of Edvard Grieg more than a lot of the music of Richard Wagner, but I would still be very hesitant to say that these levels of enjoyment make Grieg as good of a composer (or better) than Wagner.
> 
> Now, on a related note, so you don't feel constantly attacked or whatever (you shouldn't), has Uematsu done any orchestration of his own work? I'm very skeptical of the orchestrations of others in this particular area, but would love to hear some more acoustic sounds from Uematsu (I enjoy his piano collections). Also, Koji Kondo? Cuz who doesn't love some Zelda.


I can't say, because so many factors would change. What would you think of Mozart's music if he was just some obscure classical period composer, that was never built up at all as "teh gratest composer evar", if he wasn't constantly thrown in your face as one of the big 3?

I have come to appreciate things I didn't like at first, many times, and grew to like them. But I don't dislike Mozart. I like plenty of his pieces. There's some things in his style I find annoying, and most of his work I find terribly bland, but I don't hate his music. And why wouldn't it make him better than Wagner? Why is it that Wagner is better than Grieg? Is it because he was more innovative? Is it because people with a bias for German music say he's so great? (on a side note I actually like Wagner better than Grieg)

Uematsu I believe orchestrates the music for the games (the electronically realized versions), and that does count as a form of orchestration. As far as the live performances of his pieces, I think somebody else probably scores them out for orchestral musicians from Nobuo's audio. But really I actually tend to prefer most of his music in the original form, because he has great talent with those sampled instruments. He is able to make these "fake" instruments sound so alive and beautiful, and gorgeous.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Mozart's Footstool*

Let's start a 'Uematsu is Mozart's footstool' thread in honor of BurningDesire... I kid, I kid. :angel::angel:


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I will put in a good word about Uematsu's craft as a composer for the computer musician. His ability to work with the extreme limitations of, say the SNES sound chip, and bend it to his will is most impressive to me, certainly in that sense he is far more competent than many "serious" composers I have heard attempting to work with computers. Of course, he and I are essentially working in the same field, so I may have more sympathy towards his work, particularly during the 1990s.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> I hate to repeat myself, even if it has been the best part of a year since I said it, but:


And yet those who would reject VG music as 'classical', thereby refusing the yearned-for status are just as deluded, buying into the idea that classical is superior (and even that it is definable with strict boundaries).


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> I will put in a good word about Uematsu's craft as a composer for the computer musician. His ability to work with the extreme limitations of, say the SNES sound chip, and bend it to his will is most impressive to me, certainly in that sense he is far more competent than many "serious" composers I have heard attempting to work with computers. Of course, he and I are essentially working in the same field, so I may have more sympathy towards his work, particularly during the 1990s.


I appreciate that too but he is far from unique in that aspect. There's plenty of good, creative music for SNES games and other old game consoles. For the PC you have the old tracker programs (Mod files, for the demo scene). Chiptunes... All made with very limited means.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Here's a nice orchestrated section from Final Fantasy 7. I played the game and it's quite fantastic to hear this music orchestrated, when you still have the original low-fi "general midi" version engraved in memory:


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

DeepR said:


> I appreciate that too but he is far from unique in that aspect. There's plenty of good, creative music for SNES games and other old game consoles. For the PC you have the old tracker programs (Mod files, for the demo scene). Chiptunes... All made with very limited means.


I don't think me nor Cruddy said anything about Nobuo being the only video game composer to write worthwhile music. o3o


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

Amon Tobin music for splinter cell is pretty awesome.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

That's not what I implied. I meant that aspect of his music (that it was created for the limited audio chips of old gaming consoles) doesn't make it especially unique or impressive.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

DeepR said:


> That's not what I implied. I meant that aspect of his music (that it was created for the limited audio chips of old gaming consoles) doesn't make it especially unique or impressive.


Unique? No. Impressive? To me, yes. It's humbling for me, as someone who does compose specifically for the computer, to note what older generations of people who did the same had to deal with, whether it's Uematsu having to contort his musical ideas to fit a four channel NES chip, Zappa working with a very primitive form of MIDI at the Synclavier (I recall an interview in which he enthuses over a new software update that introduced velocity control, something which now is impossible to imagine being without), or Babbitt using punch cards and a laborious trial and error process to program the RCA Mk. II. Those are all things I never have to deal with, but for me at least they are important stepping stones to the present day technologically. Whether I think Uetmatsu is a classical composer or not, and I don't, but I also don't think that is anything of an insult to him, his work is part of what I consider my tradition and I have great respect for it.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

*Toru Takemitsu*

BurningDesire, do you like the music of Toru Takemitsu? It's some of the most beautiful I've heard.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> And yet those who would reject VG music as 'classical', thereby refusing the yearned-for status are just as deluded, buying into the idea that classical is superior (and even that it is definable with strict boundaries).


Not necessarily. I think anyone here would agree that there are things that are unquestionably Classical and unquestionably terrible.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Not necessarily. I think anyone here would agree that there are things that are unquestionably Classical and unquestionably terrible.


I'm increasingly of the opinion that there is little value in determining whether something is 'classical' - unquestionably, or arguably - and that any reasons advanced for wanting to do so are specious. (Not that that has stopped me from joining in the occasional chunter on the subject!)

As almost everyone who has had an opinion on the matter (that I've read at any rate) has said, whether something is terrible or not tends to be determined by a broad consensus of subjective opinion: there is always someone out there who will question the consensus, and argue that their alternative subjective opinion is no less valid than the subjective opinion of 1 million others that happens to coincide.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> And yet those who would reject VG music as 'classical', thereby refusing the yearned-for status are just as deluded, buying into the idea that classical is superior (and even that it is definable with strict boundaries).


I reject VG music as classical for the same reason I reject it as bluegrass, it's got nothing to do with some made up hierarchy, but rather the form and content. Are there elements in VG music that come from classical music? Yes, just as there are elements of VG music that come from every other kind of music under the sun. Like the video game itself, which at its most complex is a synthesis of cinema, literature, music and other forms in an interactive presentation, VG music is a synthesis of so many different things that I don't feel I could rightly call it anything other than VG music. And what's wrong with that? Why is it bad to say that it is its own thing?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Unique? No. Impressive? To me, yes. It's humbling for me, as someone who does compose specifically for the computer, to note what older generations of people who did the same had to deal with, whether it's Uematsu having to contort his musical ideas to fit a four channel NES chip, Zappa working with a very primitive form of MIDI at the Synclavier (I recall an interview in which he enthuses over a new software update that introduced velocity control, something which now is impossible to imagine being without), or Babbitt using punch cards and a laborious trial and error process to program the RCA Mk. II. Those are all things I never have to deal with, but for me at least they are important stepping stones to the present day technologically. Whether I think Uetmatsu is a classical composer or not, and I don't, but I also don't think that is anything of an insult to him, his work is part of what I consider my tradition and I have great respect for it.


I understand that. I think Uematsu is music-wise far above average, as far as VG music goes, but technically not particularly impressive compared to other VG composers at the time; they all had to work with the same limitations. 
I'd like to add that there's another side to this. Technical limitations can also support creativity. Working with limited means may be a strenuous process, but at least you can focus completely on getting the most out of the tools you have. These days the possibilities are endless. So many options, so much potential. The things you can do with just one PC.... I imagine it can be so overwhelming that it's hard to get creative at all and that's why it may even be liberating to limit oneself to just one or a few specific tools.
Anyway this is getting a little off topic.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> Why is it bad to say that it is its own thing?


I wasn't aware that I was saying that. I was agreeing with your earlier post (#23) and adding a corollary - it's not just those seeking to elevate VG music to the status of classical that have bought into a falsehood of superiority, but also those seeking to reject the elevation by determining the criteria that defines what classical music is, and that VG doesn't meet the criteria. A typical bone of contention is that of functionality. Because VG music has a specified (and, by implication, an inferior) purpose - which is to act as an adjunct to some other prior craft or art - it doesn't really stand on its own merits. As "everyone knows", classical is deep, serious and has its own purpose and anything that smacks of utilitarianism is to be avoided!


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

DeepR said:


> I understand that. I think Uematsu is music-wise far above average, as far as VG music goes, but technically not particularly impressive compared to other VG composers at the time; they all had to work with the same limitations.
> I'd like to add that there's another side to this. Technical limitations can also support creativity. Working with limited means may be a strenuous process, but at least you can focus completely on getting the most out of the tools you have. These days the possibilities are endless. So many options, so much potential. The things you can with just one PC.... I imagine it can be so overwhelming that it's hard to get creative at all and that's why it may even be liberating to limit oneself to just one or a few specific tools.
> Anyway this is getting a little off topic.


Sure, I'm not disputing that, but then I'm not arguing for Uematsu over everyone else, I'm just using him as a notable (at least in terms of the titles he worked on) example. I could easily have used Koji Kondo or whomever, but as Uematsu had already been brought up, it just seemed like it would have been an unnecessary and potentially confusing thing to do to start using other names, especially since I'm sure some people following the discussion won't be all that familiar with them.

It is off-topic, but an interesting discussion nonetheless, and I have to say that I disagree with you. I think once one reaches a certain level of experience one develops an intuition keen enough that one can be self-limiting, and I think that is more valuable to a composer's development than to simply be limited by the technology itself.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> I wasn't aware that I was saying that. I was agreeing with your earlier post (#23) and adding a corollary - it's not just those seeking to elevate VG music to the status of classical that have bought into a falsehood of superiority, but also those seeking to reject the elevation by determining the criteria that defines what classical music is, and that VG doesn't meet the criteria. A typical bone of contention is that of functionality. Because VG music has a specified (and, by implication, an inferior) purpose - which is to act as an adjunct to some other prior craft or art - it doesn't really stand on its own merits. As "everyone knows", classical is deep, serious and has its own purpose and anything that smacks of utilitarianism is to be avoided!


In that case I misunderstood. I apologise. In my defence, I am ill, and not quite so on-the-ball as I would like to be for a discussion like this. In any case, I quite agree that pretence abounds on both sides of the argument.

Also, though I misunderstood, it did at least allow me to clarify my opinion about these classifications.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> In that case I misunderstood. I apologise. In my defence, I am ill, and not quite so on-the-ball as I would like to be for a discussion like this. In any case, I quite agree that there pretence abounds on both sides of the argument.
> 
> Also, though I misunderstood, it did at least allow me to clarify my opinion about these classifications.


No need to apologise - though thanks anyway - I'm pleased it was a misunderstanding.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I never played any of those video games.

I just listened to Uematsu in youtube, I would rather listen to Mozart or Rach any day... (and I'm not even a fan of those composers)


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2014)

The main reason to vote in this annual farce is to get Classic FM to play the pieces you vote for more often than they would do so otherwise. I suppose that some people might also get some satisfaction from seeing their favoured works on the stupid list. 

Since I never listen to Classic FM, the whole thing is irrelevant to me. I confess that I used to listen to it occasionally when it first started up, but I soon got fed up with it. Instead, I found the BBC's Radio 3 station to be far superior, and I switched to that. But over recent years Radio 3 has gone much the same way as Classic FM, at least for some of the more traffic-sensitive morning programmes. It isn't yet quite so bad as Classic FM but things are pretty atrocious at times compared with the way the BBC used to run those programmes.

As for these CFM votes, I'm not sure but I don't think there is any control over how many votes a person may submit, provided on each occasion it's not more than for 3 works. Someone keen enough might possibly be able to send in the same votes many times over, as the voting period is very long. They might indeed be able to submit votes from their pet dog, cat, hamster, budgerigar or even a tarantula possibly. It must have been something like this that happened in 2013 causing a couple of "video game" pieces to get included in the top 10.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Internet voting is all about page hit counts, so vote early and vote often: the more you can visit their pages and add a vote for the music your goldfish likes the happier classic FM will be. On the other hand, The results of internet votes are all about controversy: "OMG how could they leave Beethoven out of the top 10", "WTF, why did a mere video game composer get into the top ten". With a top 300 there is plenty of middle ground to fill with the usual suspects so no one will be totally alienated by a total absence of a big name, but put some wildcards in and it will stoke excitement, make bloggers and forum denizens fulminate with righteous indignation and if it is a slow news day it might even make a story on news website, driving curious traffic to classicfm.

If you are looking to rig (sorry influence) the vote you'd be better off voting for composers that truly need the exposure. Not already-doing-quite-well-for-himself Uematsu but some of the unsung composers who hang out in talkclassical.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> I wasn't aware that I was saying that. I was agreeing with your earlier post (#23) and adding a corollary - it's not just those seeking to elevate VG music to the status of classical that have bought into a falsehood of superiority, but also those seeking to reject the elevation by determining the criteria that defines what classical music is, and that VG doesn't meet the criteria. A typical bone of contention is that of functionality. Because VG music has a specified (and, by implication, an inferior) purpose - which is to act as an adjunct to some other prior craft or art - it doesn't really stand on its own merits. As "everyone knows", classical is deep, serious and has its own purpose and anything that smacks of utilitarianism is to be avoided!


It is not utility which damns a piece. For me what damns most film scoring and video game music is a derivative quality of the music which makes it patently 'so like some other piece' which was classical and went before. If it is not that, it is another quality, that of rehashed already generic and badly cliche melodramatic schtick from the cheesier of classical and film music. There is little left between all that for much of anything fresh to the ears.

Often the entire series of episodes which make up those scores, or the shortest clip from them, sounds like a smorgasbord sampling of bits and pieces of earlier 20th century classical composers works -- some of it painfully obvious and bordering just on the outside of plagiarism.

From that point of view, there is not much of anything newsworthy, or worth the time taken to listen, about many a film or video game track.

Regenerating cliche after cliche, used as a sort of sure-fire shorthand of what clearly communicates to the listener, seems to be completely accepted within the film score and video game score industry where if you are a classical composer presenting works in classical venues for that audience, it is anathema to sound much like another composer. In classical, sounding like an/other composer(s) is about the worst thing you can do.... unless your work has a superb strength of its own and a very unique character and sound, the audience will be reminded of the composer whose works your works do resemble, and would then rather hear the original.

This link 




is about the more than similar (near cribbing, one has to say) use of material and ideas as per John Williams' film scores. The first bit of a Williams score cited for some reason does not sound, but the balance of the audio is all there. This sort of not quite outright plagiarism goes on all the time. When it is not the model, it seems some composite cliche from a catalogue of theatrical cliches ends up being composed for a particular segment of a game, scene from a film.


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

PetrB said:


> It is not utility which damns a piece. For me what damns most film scoring and video game music is a derivative quality of the music which makes it patently 'so like some other piece' which was classical and went before. If it is not that, it is another quality, that of rehashed already generic and badly cliche melodramatic schtick from the cheesier of classical and film music. There is little left between all that for much of anything fresh to the ears.


That can be said about most classical music too.



PetrB said:


> Often the entire series of episodes which make up those scores, or the shortest clip from them, sounds like a smorgasbord sampling of bits and pieces of earlier 20th century classical composers works -- some of it painfully obvious and bordering just on the outside of plagiarism.


Yeah, and so did Bizet copy spanish music in _Carmen_ (_ L'amour est un oiseau rebelle_ is based on a melody of a song by Sebastián Yradier).



PetrB said:


> From that point of view, there is not much of anything newsworthy, or worth the time taken to listen, about many a film or video game track.


Compared to the total of classical music available on the internet, it safe to say most people on this forum would also think that about classical music, even though the few they listen too is already a lot.



PetrB said:


> Regenerating cliche after cliche, used as a sort of sure-fire shorthand of what clearly communicates to the listener, seems to be completely accepted within the film score and video game score industry where if you are a classical composer presenting works in classical venues for that audience, it is anathema to sound much like another composer. In classical, sounding like an/other composer(s_ is about the worst thing you can do.... unless your work has a superb strength of its own and a very unique character and sound, the audience will be reminded of the composer whose works your works do resemble, and would then rather hear the original.


Didn't Stravinsky compose a ballet that sounded like Tchaikovsky and that sampled some of his compositions? How is that any different?



PetrB said:


> This link
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are many composers of opera who are as derivative as John Williams, and many composers of film scores who are truly original. Star Wars isn't the only film franchise that has a soundtrack.

All in all, it seems like you belive that classical music equals avant-garde/original music while popular (as far as I know, all the music that isn't classical is popular) is derivative/unoriginal, unless, of course, if it is in some classical from, then it is "classical" regardless of the fact that it might be as derivative as any film score.

Personally, I belive that if the ideas, material or models of a composition is copied, the copy will be by definition in the same style of the original. And yet, you argue that's it's _because_ John Williams scores are copies of classical pieces, it can't be considered classical, which puzzles me.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> It is not utility which damns a piece. For me what damns most film scoring and video game music is a derivative quality of the music which makes it patently 'so like some other piece' which was classical and went before.


You're so right! I mean, yesterday I was listening to some of Beethoven's (you remember him, right?) early string quartets, and it hit me right between the eyes. Hey, this is just leftover Haydn, yanked out of the fridge and nuked for a few minutes. Tonic, subdominant, dominant, tonic. Expo, development, recap, coda. Same old stuff we've heard before -- maybe a few hundred times. Beethoven even has the nerve to copy Haydn's false recaps. And worst of all, the music *sounds* like Haydn!

No wonder about this time old Franz Joseph just threw up his hands and retired. What's the use sticking around when clowns like Beethoven are just going to rip off your stuff and sell it for themselves?


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2014)

One must wonder why someone would sign up for a classical music forum if they firmly believe that 8-bit soundtracks trump just about everything the genre has to offer. (Hence deserving a spot in this heinous top 10)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> One must wonder why someone would sign up for a classical music forum if they firmly believe that 8-bit soundtracks trump just about everything the genre has to offer. (Hence deserving a spot in this heinous top 10)


FM classic's top 100 composers is not exactly the sort of list one would have aspirations of being included on -- sort of like thinking to put a Rolls Royce on to a fly-by night low ball used car lot


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Honestly, though, this is a top 10 in which the first place spot either goes to Rachmaninoff's Second Concerto or Vaughan Williams' The Lark Ascending. I am sure that not only would both composers readily choose other canonical works that are far better for a top pick, but would be surprised indeed to find that these things are seen as the best of their output (although Sergei might be a little relieved that the Prelude in C# minor wasn't chosen).


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Our local FM top-100, determined each year, has a lot of suspense. Will #1 this year be Beethoven's 9th or the Four Seasons? You can rest assured, of course, that Pachelbel will be comfortably up there.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> You're so right! I mean, yesterday I was listening to some of Beethoven's (you remember him, right?) early string quartets, and it hit me right between the eyes. Hey, this is just leftover Haydn, yanked out of the fridge and nuked for a few minutes. Tonic, subdominant, dominant, tonic. Expo, development, recap, coda. Same old stuff we've heard before -- maybe a few hundred times. Beethoven even has the nerve to copy Haydn's false recaps. And worst of all, the music *sounds* like Haydn!
> 
> No wonder about this time old Franz Joseph just threw up his hands and retired. What's the use sticking around when clowns like Beethoven are just going to rip off your stuff and sell it for themselves?


Another marvel of what I consider disingenuouty or flat out lack of comprehension.

Doing something 'new' is no more than every great writer has done with the same damned bunch of words used by everyone else.

You're really going to have to come up with something better to involve me


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> One must wonder why someone would sign up for a classical music forum if they firmly believe that 8-bit soundtracks trump just about everything the genre has to offer. (Hence deserving a spot in this heinous top 10)


Clearly, those who want such a thing think they have aimed high.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Another marvel of what I consider disingenuouty or flat out lack of comprehension.


Well, you wrote "For me what damns most film scoring and video game music is a derivative quality of the music which makes it patently 'so like some other piece' which was classical and went before."

I pointed out the relationships between Beethoven's Op. 18 quartets and Haydn's previous efforts as an example of *exactly* that. Your response notably doesn't address that. At all. Insults are hardly an adequate substitute.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2014)

FleshRobot said:


> Personally, I belive that if the ideas, material or models of a composition is copied, the copy will be by definition in the same style of the original. And yet, you argue that's it's _because_ John Williams scores are copies of classical pieces, it can't be considered classical, which puzzles me.


Thank you.

It is, of course, precisely because 300 years of classical music has created an easy vocabulary of emotion- and atmosphere-generating snippets that it is often drawn on for utility purposes.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

This is a great video game soundtrack. This is original and by one of the best producers of electronic music there is.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Well, you wrote "For me what damns most film scoring and video game music is a derivative quality of the music which makes it patently 'so like some other piece' which was classical and went before."
> 
> I pointed out the relationships between Beethoven's Op. 18 quartets and Haydn's previous efforts as an example of *exactly* that. Your response notably doesn't address that. At all. Insults are hardly an adequate substitute.


Well, Beethoven's op18 were published in 1801, when Haydn was still very much alive. It was all a developing, contemporary style. Beethoven took the model bequeathed and carried its development further.
That's very different from modern computer-program-composers mashing up bits of century-old works by Holst and Stravinsky and passing it off as something original and worthy, as seems to be promulgated on this thread.
GG


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Piwikiwi said:


> This is a great video game soundtrack. This is original and by one of the best producers of electronic music there is.


I'm glad this has visuals to accompany it. It's pretty much devoid of any aural interest.
GG


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Piwikiwi said:


> This is a great video game soundtrack. This is original and by one of the best producers of electronic music there is.


It sounds very... Fashionable, cinematic? The artist seems to excel at creating mood and texture, though the pieces' framework/architecture is quite predictable; the language employed is very limited. In addition to VGs, this would also go well with a Jason Statham movie; sheer dumb fun.


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## Piwikiwi (Apr 1, 2011)

GraemeG said:


> I'm glad this has visuals to accompany it. It's pretty much devoid of any aural interest.
> GG


It is background music.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Piwikiwi said:


> It is background music.


And therefore isn't good music. If it was good music, it would be quality enough to stand on its own as well. Music doesn't need to be dumbed-down or bland for it to be able to score a film or a game.


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## Matsps (Jan 13, 2014)

BurningDesire said:


> And therefore isn't good music. .


It's wrong to say it isn't good music. It's music fit for purpose. I wouldn't call it _great_ music or say the guy doing it was a _genius_ or something like that, nor would I consider it to hold a candle to something like a Chopin Nocturne or a Rachmaninoff Symphony. However, the music does exactly what it's meant to do. It sets the mood, it fits the game theme and so in that sense, it's perfectly fine music. To say this music isn't good at all though, that is unfair.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

It depends to what extent the music is designed as an expressly integral component of the overall presentation, it is potentially true that a game that considers all its components equal would have music that is great in the game but very uninteresting outside of it. It's a difficult subject because, again, VG music reflects the medium it is created for in its extreme diversity, there are really no statements on it one can hold as absolute truths, even the popular contention that it is entirely derivative.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Let me ask a naive question about video game music. I have played a reasonable number of games for someone my age (all the Zeldas for example), but I always play with the sound off because I don't like the noises made during the game (not the music). So I haven't really heard any of the music. 

In film the music is very specific to the scene and so the composer is fairly constrained with what to write. Is that true in video game music, or is it much freer?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Let me ask a naive question about video game music. I have played a reasonable number of games for someone my age (all the Zeldas for example), but I always play with the sound off because I don't like the noises made during the game (not the music). So I haven't really heard any of the music.
> 
> In film the music is very specific to the scene and so the composer is fairly constrained with what to write. Is that true in video game music, or is it much freer?


Because the flow of most games is dependent entirely on user input, it is very difficult to create a synchronous soundtrack beyond quite simple changes to match broad moods. There are plenty of games that have pre-determined trigger points which will cause music/sound to change in some way if activated through whatever criteria, whether it is scripted to happen inevitably or if certain conditions are met by the player, so to some extent the music follows the action. I have yet to see any kind of "living soundtrack" system that was particularly flexible in that regard, probably because it would cost the developer too much to have a composer write so many variations on each track based on a wide variety of potential gameplay outcomes.

Conversely there is the rhythm game genre, in which the action follows the music. Many popular examples like _Guitar Hero_ and _Dance Dance Revolution_ are basically jukeboxes with Simon Says type commands timed to the music. There are also "free-form" rhythm games like the ever popular _Audiosurf_ and its somewhat ancestor _Vib-Ribbon_, both of which generate levels based on analysis of user-supplied audio tracks.

I'm glossing over a bunch of particulars, but that's my present understanding of it in general.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> Let me ask a naive question about video game music. I have played a reasonable number of games for someone my age (all the Zeldas for example), but I always play with the sound off because I don't like the noises made during the game (not the music). So I haven't really heard any of the music.
> 
> In film the music is very specific to the scene and so the composer is fairly constrained with what to write. Is that true in video game music, or is it much freer?


Here ya go, orchestrated for concert performance. You may be the perfect guinea pig -- especially if you do not read any of the titles for each segment -- to give your report / opinion on 'the music itself.'


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

BurningDesire said:


> And therefore isn't good music. If it was good music, it would be quality enough to stand on its own as well.


I disagree with this. Some music is specifically designed as accompaniment and excels in that role. Outside of soundtracks, go read about Robert Rich's album "Somnium".


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I disagree with this. Some music is specifically designed as accompaniment and excels in that role.


This is exactly why one should think of it as 'fine utility music' and not absolute music -- since there is such a universe of abstract (absolute) music which runs to a very different purpose.

I have no trouble saying, 'that is a fine video-game / film-score, while I most often find no common ground as to either quality or effect when trying to compare those genres to 'classical' music.

If the OP and other fans of the film / video score genres wanted to get it 'more right' they would advocate a Hall of Fame for the best within the genre and stop trying to stack those scores up to music of the classical composers -- about the only thing I can hear they have in common is that they are music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> This is exactly why one should think of it as 'fine utility music' and not absolute music -- since there is such a universe of abstract (absolute) music which runs to a very different purpose.
> 
> I have no trouble saying, 'that is a fine video-game / film-score, while I most often find no common ground as to either quality or effect when trying to compare those genres to 'classical' music.


Hmmm... Suites from ballets (Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev)? Incidental music (Egmont, Peer Gynt, etc.)? Some sort of "utility music" that can't withstand comparison with "classical music"?


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

PetrB said:


> If the OP and other fans of the film / video score genres wanted to get it 'more right' they would advocate a Hall of Fame for the best within the genre and stop trying to stack those scores up to music of the classical composers -- about the only thing I can hear they have in common is that they are music.


I agree completely.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Hmmm... Suites from ballets (Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev)? Incidental music (Egmont, Peer Gynt, etc.)? Some sort of "utility music" that can't withstand comparison with "classical music"?


The same tired handful of examples from a huge body of repertoire, the same tired handful of _full time classical composers of absolute concert music who turned to one or two of this sort of utilty job in their entire careers._ I'm not at all convinced or swayed.

_What those classical composers, almost to a one, aren't were not?_ masterful jack-of-all-trades-write-to-order-in-any-genre film or video composers who worked almost exclusively within that particular industry.

I would like to think just about anyone can hear the difference between this




and this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRTsfBFpSo

and also how utterly derivative are these correlative bits by a particularly well-known film composer





EDIT ADD: It is, against my broadfire generality, not the job, but who does the job, and whatever talent, genius, etc. is applied to the job. Many of those jobs have very restrictive directives from the film director. (I don't know how 'musically free' any particular video game job might be.)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> The same tired handful of examples from a huge body of repertoire, the same tired handful of _full time classical composers of absolute concert music who turned to one or two of this sort of utilty job in their entire careers._ I'm not at all convinced or swayed.


Hardly an adequate answer to my counterexamples to the principle you originally stated. And pointing out examples of music you don't like similarly doesn't support your principle. Bizet's suites? Creatures of Prometheus? Verdi's ballet music? There is more than a "tired handful" floating around, and I suspect that only you feel this music tired.


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## FleshRobot (Jan 27, 2014)

PetrB said:


> The same tired handful of examples from a huge body of repertoire, the same tired handful of _full time classical composers of absolute concert music who turned to one or two of this sort of utilty job in their entire careers._ I'm not at all convinced or swayed.
> 
> _What those classical composers, almost to a one, aren't were not?_ masterful jack-of-all-trades-write-to-order-in-any-genre film or video composers who worked almost exclusively within that particular industry.
> 
> ...


Wait... are you saiyng that Prokofiev's score to Alexander Nevsky is classical or that it can't be classical because of the derivative film scores?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Hardly an adequate answer to my counterexamples to the principle you originally stated. And pointing out examples of music you don't like similarly doesn't support your principle. Bizet's suites? Creatures of Prometheus? Verdi's ballet music? There is more than a "tired handful" floating around, and I suspect that only you feel this music tired.


Nonsense. Compared to the full bulk of classical rep, suites from operas (those were actually operas), a little handful of incidental music for the theater (before there was specifically, film music, and its requisites to 'sound like Rachmaninov' in one scene, and Charlie Parker in the next -- i.e. those commissions expected the same sort of music those classical composers were known for, and not an olio of styles both popular and classical), and the relatively important but again smaller body of full-length ballets, the more commercial film scores and video games scores of the latter half of the 20th century and the present are not littered with composers of anywhere near the same originality or strengths as those you mentioned.

"The Job" has, for the most part, the majority of those assignments, become radically changed from a time when someone said, "Beethoven / Stravinsky, etc." I want music for a theater piece, a ballet.

There are fine and competent composers working in the more 'commercial' fields (yes we all know that classical music is also a commercial endeavor) and then there are all the rest.

But seriously, James Horner, John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Joe Hishaishi, or the composer(s) of _Final Fantasy_ or _The Legend of Zelda_ vs. Bizet, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Vaughan Williams, Debussy, etc.? That calls to mind Marv Newland's infamous student film _*Bambi vs. Godzilla*_...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-wUdetAAlY[/URL


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> But seriously, James Horner, John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Joe Hishaishi, or the composer(s) of _Final Fantasy_ or _The Legend of Zelda_ vs. Bizet, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Ravel, Vaughan Williams, Debussy, etc.?


The fact that composers currently working in certain genres may not measure up to the past (in your opinion at least) simply does not disqualify the genres from consideration as serious music. The "principle" you suggested makes no sense, and there are plenty of past examples (tired though you may find them) to suggest that this is the case. Narrow-minded conservatism is, of course, nothing new in the history of music criticism.

Takemitsu? Copland? Morricone? Herrmann? Korngold? etc.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> The fact that composers currently working in certain genres may not measure up to the past (in your opinion at least) simply does not disqualify the genres from consideration as serious music. The "principle" you suggested makes no sense, and there are plenty of past examples (tired though you may find them) to suggest that this is the case. Narrow-minded conservatism is, of course, nothing new in the history of music criticism.
> 
> Takemitsu? Copland? Morricone? Herrmann? Korngold? etc.


For one who is big on Beethoven, and that 'fully developed' syntax, you are arguing for nothing but the briefest of sequential 'bits of music.' Your named composers:
Takemitsu ~ the film scores are masterly film scores, his 'classical,' or concert, scores are also masterly, and quite something else.

Copland? Knew how to write for films, _if_ the industry wanted 'that Aaron Copland Sound.' There would be very few film jobs coming his way at present.

Morricone ~ Master of the genre. Again, a suite would be a series of episodes, a lot of it quite fine but sounding like 'it needs a movie with that, please.' Ditto most of Hermann's film scores, very fine as they are. Symphonic work? Something else, again.

Korngold ~ nearly created the sound of what we think is old-school Hollywood 'grand' film score style. His film scores sound like Korngold's parody of Korngold. His 'classical concert works, again, quite something else.

Yes, I'm aware John Williams has written a Bassoon concerto and a 'cello concerto. Having heard only the 'cello concerto (well-written and constructed in a gentle contemporary idiom), it sounded like a well-written and constructed 'cello concerto in a gentle contemporary idiom, and it also sounded like it was a piece made to that description for a film, like Addinsell's _Warsaw Concerto_, a placebo of sorts.

Next?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Your point from that last post? You seem more intent on dismissing the musical efforts of these composers than supporting the principle you originally expounded. And of course, not everybody will agree with your opinions of specific works or composers.

What does my liking for Beethoven have to do with anything?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Your point from that last post? You seem more intent on dismissing the musical efforts of these composers than supporting the principle you originally expounded. And of course, not everybody will agree with your opinions of specific works or composers.
> 
> *What does my liking for Beethoven have to do with anything?*


Lengthy development of musical ideas within an astonishing form.

Classical form or newer contemporary classical form, those longer 15 to 40 minute long pieces are extended works within one genre. Often, the longest developed bit in a film or video score lasts but minutes, and frequently, one minute or less.

The genre, and what results, is miles apart from the "usual" extended listening and concentration the longer and more developed works expect. Even the best film music is the instant and ready 'hit' -- to get something across in a highly abbreviated way. It is rare that a concert suite from a film (lets leave out the now three to five or so well-known composers who do classical _and_ film scores) will sit well with the audience unless it is on a program of lighter classical fare.

I've just thought of this experiment. Listen to a Symphony, a Mahler, Beethoven, etc. or the full-length_ Petrushka_, _Daphnis et Chloe_, _Jeux_, Roger Sessions' early _Black Maskers Suite,_ etc. -- then listen to John Williams' concert suite from _Star Wars_, a suite from a James Horner score, a Hans Zimmer score, hell, even a Bernard Herrmann _film_score like _Vertigo_, or Joe Hishaishi's concert suite from _Howl's Moving Castle_ or _Legend of Zelda concert suite_ et Vive la difference -- which needs no words when one is heard next to the other.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Lengthy development of musical ideas within an astonishing form.


I'm sure there are plenty of fine pieces that you or I would happily call "classical" that don't do this.



PetrB said:


> ...then listen to John Williams' concert suite from Star Wars, a suite from a James Horner score, a Hans Zimmer score, hell, even a Bernard Herrmann _film_score, et Vive la difference -- which needs no words when one is heard next to the other.


And again, what does this have to do with the condemnation of whole genres? "Incidental music" qualifies as CM but movie or video game music doesn't? No reason I can see except that you don't much like it, evidently.

I am fond of Williams' symphonic suite from "Close Encounters" and much prefer it to some far more standard fare. Whether somebody else considers it CM is hardly an issue -- with me.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

Or we could perhaps compromise on the issue. PetrB will allow video game music and film soundtracks to be labeled classical music, and the rest of you must admit that none of it belongs in any list of the top 1000 classical masterpieces either way. I think everyone would be happy that way.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2014)

KenOC said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of fine pieces that you or I would happily call "classical" that don't do this.


Almost the entirety of Erik Satie's output?


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Here ya go, orchestrated for concert performance. You may be the perfect guinea pig -- especially if you do not read any of the titles for each segment -- to give your report / opinion on 'the music itself.'


I listened to about half of the video. I can imagine hearing short parts of this during the game (during the game movies, while traveling from place to place, etc.), but it sounds strange hearing an extended version. I'm not sure if what I heard was meant to be heard as one continuous work. I guess overall it sounded like background music so that there would not be silence during portions of the game. Of course, I'm not sure if video game players think this particular Zelda music is really top notch.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

arcaneholocaust said:


> I disagree with this. Some music is specifically designed as accompaniment and excels in that role. Outside of soundtracks, go read about Robert Rich's album "Somnium".


Well I disagree with your contention. Sure, boring, generic music can "do the job", but it does nothing to enhance the experience. When you are listening to bland generic music written to accompany a scene in an exciting and interesting story, its okay, but if you are experiencing this great story AND at the exact same time you're listening to this stunning, amazing music... the experience is so much greater. If you want examples of that in action, I recommend you watch films like The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, and you should look into the anime Princess Tutu, which actually uses almost exclusively classical music for its score, and yet somehow not only does it not distract from the story, its one of the most effective scores I've ever heard used in a film, show, game whatever.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Just to add my worthless 2 cents to this discussion. I like the music of games I have played. Specifically the music of the Zelda games and Banjo Kazooie games.






In the case of Zelda music, I rather like the unnerving atmospheric tracks more than the melody driven tracks






However, I would never put this music on the same "level" as the classical music I listen to in terms of musical interest or stimulation. To me, this music is just the source of a simple, nostalgic enjoyment and for the most part, nothing more.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> I am fond of Williams' symphonic suite from "Close Encounters" and much prefer it to some far more standard fare. Whether somebody else considers it CM is hardly an issue -- with me.


This round you 'don't care' if the Williams is considered CM? Then why argue it could be? LOL.

At any rate, I gave this suite you like a whirl -- honestly, a little over two minutes and some and completely different scraplets of a tune, a texture, in sequence and lasting a few seconds each, and it was just too olio for me, but then I dislike the polystylism of Schnittke as well. There is no way this fare has any of the weight of a lot of its contemporaries in the concert music arena, and it is an extremely light entertainment (nothing against those, btw.)

To me, there is a striking difference, i.e. this is clearly a genre, fine. I do think it is like putting a lightweight next to a heavyweight in the ring, and that there is a good reason there is another category for it; here on TC it is not in classical music, so someone there made a similar distinction -- Film and Video game music -- which was not my doing


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Takemitsu ~ the film scores are masterly film scores, his 'classical,' or concert, scores are also masterly, and quite something else.


Yes, Takemitsu used his film scores as:

A) A source of income, because he didn't teach and couldn't make money on commissions alone.
B) A "testing ground" where he could learn orchestration, find melodic ideas, etc. without the pressure of having to create a completed concert work.
C) A chance to write in idioms other than those which he normally employed in his concert music. He would be able to write popular songs, jazz-inspired pieces, make use of traditional Japanese instruments (which he actually did only rarely in concert works), and yes, he would have the chance to write tonal music.
D) An opportunity to work in a medium he loved. Takemitsu was quite the cinephile, attending over a hundred movies each year.

But he did _not_ write them the same way as his concert works, which are always identifiably different.


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## MagnumMysterium (Mar 8, 2014)

As someone who enjoys classical music (whatever that means!) and who is also a fan of Nobuo Uematsu I thought I would add my own opinions:

To me, Nobuo Uematsus work is genius. He encompasses a range of styles, creating beautiful melodies which evoke powerful emotions. His works are often 'simple' in comparison to the majority of classical music, but if music were about complexity then consensus would certainly not hold composers such as Mozart in such high regard. For it is not complexity which makes music great but its ability to evoke thought and emotion.

Thus how 'good' music is is entirely dependent on the mental state of the listener. In other words, despite seeming to have aspects of objectivity, it is a subjective experience. This is very different say from mathematics, for example, which is both objective (with regards to its primary axioms) and subjective in its beauty. A trained mathematician will appreciate both objective truth of the mathematics and its associated beauty. But a trained musician can only appreciate the beauty. This leaves musicians (and any artist) with a fundamental problem: they cannot demonstrate the importance of their work. And the interpretation of their work arrives through consensus, not through some underlying truth.

...
...

I realise that I have digressed quite a bit and perhaps have made some obvious points. But I think it is important to remember this when discussing anything in the arts. Music is an emotional experience, and playing video games can be too. When the two combine, it can alter your mental state to make you more receptive to a work of music than you would have been if they had been played separately. This is not a flaw in ones judgement of the music however, as all interpretations of music are conditional on the mental state of the listener.

So for me, Nobuo Uematsu is a composer who speaks to my heart, especially when I begin playing the videogame Final Fantasy IX:


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