# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (Bonus Match #1): Goerke vs Marton



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Christine Goerke, USA, 1969-






Eva Marton, Hungary, 1943-






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

That is a hard one. Maybe the hardest. Both are so involved and sing with great great power and conviction. Perhaps it is unfair to Goerke that this is a concert. Marilyn Zcshau sang a concert Elektra with all the conviction of a stage performance, but that is very hard to do. Zcshau is my favorite modern Elektra, but she is not known well so I didn't suggest her.
I will go with Marton on this. Gawd d**m, that is one of the most intense performances I have ever seen!!! She was in very good voice here, she made the C, and her voice is so amazingly moving to me. If I had a choice to see either one onstage I would go with Marton. People who heard her said she had a bigger voice than Nilsson. Believe it or not, but she was an amazing Mozart performer, at least early on.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I'm trying to match studio recordings with studio recordings, concert performances with concert performances, live stage recordings with live stage recordings, but it's proving to be a bit more difficult than I anticipated, particularly when I'm matching singers from different eras. I hope you guys don't mind too much when the recording situations aren't equal. I'm doing my best!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> I'm trying to match studio recordings with studio recordings, concert performances with concert performances, live stage recordings with live stage recordings, but it's proving to be a bit more difficult than I anticipated, particularly when I'm matching singers from different eras. I hope you guys don't mind too much when the recording situations aren't equal. I'm doing my best!


You know, many modern singers never record in studio anymore. You are doing a great job. The available material is limited.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Goerke, somewhat. Not that I'm fond of her or think that she presents the music better, but the vibratofest provided by the aging Marton is unendurable. I don't care how intense she is if she can't produce a clean vocal sound. Goerke has a vibrato problem, too, above the staff where something funny happens to the voice which I can't explain. It goes all tight and tremulous and robs the climaxes of impact. None of this really matters to me, since I seem to find this music less, rather than more, rewarding as the years pass. Strauss's mixture of not-very-shocking (nowadays) dissonance with rose-cavalier whipped-cream waltz tunes, intended to put over a horror-movie libretto, strikes me as upper-class kitsch (and is kitsch any fun, or even still kitsch, when it's classy-cal?). But that's just me. Thanks for your indulgence.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Ok I take back everything bad I ever said about Nilsson


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

vivalagentenuova said:


> Ok I take back everything bad I ever said about Nilsson


I hear you there! I was pretty picky about dramatic soprano too, but then I realized it is a privilege to have great voices (Flagstad, Traubel, Grob-Prandl, Nilsson, etc.,) around to complain about their minor shortcomings. These two clips above are why. I can't really vote for either.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Goerke, somewhat. Not that I'm fond of her or think that she presents the music better, but the vibratofest provided by the aging Marton is unendurable. I don't care how intense she is if she can't produce a clean vocal sound. Goerke has a vibrato problem, too, above the staff where something funny happens to the voice which I can't explain. It goes all tight and tremulous and robs the climaxes of impact. None of this really matters to me, since I seem to find this music less, rather than more, rewarding as the years pass. Strauss's mixture of not-very-shocking (nowadays) dissonance with rose-cavalier whipped-cream waltz tunes, intended to put over a horror-movie libretto, strikes me as upper-class kitsch (and is kitsch any fun, or even still kitsch, when it's classy-cal?). But that's just me. Thanks for your indulgence.


I forgive you because I like you..... but watch it LOL


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

What is going on with Goerke's mouth  And her tongue....

So much tension....


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I voted for Marton because her performance was much more intense, but I don't much like either voice and I feel much the same as Woodduck about the music. I used to have the Solti recording on LP but never got round to buying a recording on CD as I rarely feel in the mood to listen to all those women screaming at me for almost two hours. 

I listened to the Sawallisch recording recently, which also has Marton as Elektra, and actually preferred it to the Solti as Sawallisch seems to find more lyricism in the score, but Marton isn't a patch on Nilsson in one of her best roles.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> What is going on with Goerke's mouth  And her tongue....
> 
> So much tension....


https://www.talkclassical.com/66118-question-why-do-some.html?highlight=


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

It's Goerke for me. I didn't see the actual facial emotion in Marton -- just holding onto those ropes. It was disconcerting and didn't touch me. Goerke, on the other hand, just standing there sans props, showed more emotion and pain.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I'm trying to match studio recordings with studio recordings, concert performances with concert performances, live stage recordings with live stage recordings, but it's proving to be a bit more difficult than I anticipated, particularly when I'm matching singers from different eras. I hope you guys don't mind too much when the recording situations aren't equal. I'm doing my best!


You've set yourself an impossible task! 

(It's also difficult to choose when there are numerous examples of singers such as Nilsson and Flagstad in the same aria.)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Goerke, somewhat. Not that I'm fond of her or think that she presents the music better, but the vibratofest provided by the aging Marton is unendurable. I don't care how intense she is if she can't produce a clean vocal sound. Goerke has a vibrato problem, too, above the staff where something funny happens to the voice which I can't explain. It goes all tight and tremulous and robs the climaxes of impact. None of this really matters to me, since I seem to find this music less, rather than more, rewarding as the years pass. Strauss's mixture of not-very-shocking (nowadays) dissonance with rose-cavalier whipped-cream waltz tunes, intended to put over a horror-movie libretto, strikes me as upper-class kitsch (and is kitsch any fun, or even still kitsch, when it's classy-cal?). But that's just me. Thanks for your indulgence.


I couldn't disagree more! 

I love Elektra (it's a nostalgia thing for me), but then growing up in a dysfunctional, matriarchal family is bound to affect your musical taste!

I voted for Marton here. I only find her vibrato intrusive at moments and the warmth of her tone more than makes up for that. It also easily trumps Goerke's shallow, uncentred sound and it's no surprise that Marton has the better diction. Then Marton invests a level of commitment that is totally missing from the Goerke performance. No contest!

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I couldn't disagree more!
> 
> I love Elektra (it's a nostalgia thing for me), but then growing up in a dysfunctional, matriarchal family is bound to affect your musical taste!
> 
> ...









Thank you The Conte


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I can’t choose between these two videos. Both voices are compromised. Marton was very good on stage every time I saw her and the blocking in the video is very good. Marton’s voice is pretty hard here, but she can still make a good effect. Goerke’s voice in not pleasant, either, but it’s marginally freer and sounds fresher, and very involved. I love this opera, so I’m willing to give both a chance. 

I can’t choose between them.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

With Elektra/Strauss I am firmly out of my element here. Goerke sounds fresher and Marton is past her prime, but I do not feel qualified to give an honest and informed vote in this case.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Azol said:


> With Elektra/Strauss I am firmly out of my element here. Goerke sounds fresher and Marton is past her prime, but I do not feel qualified to give an honest and informed vote in this case.


Stick around. There are some great mentors on this forum. I have learned so much.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Stick around. There are some great mentors on this forum. I have learned so much.


This is not the "Help me to enjoy Strauss" case :lol:
Performances are very close in my opinion but at the gunpoint I would have voted for Goerke.
Just this music does not click with me (and never did) so I'd rather not tip the scale of this poll either way


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Seriously, these are so dumb and they've clogged up the entire first page of this board.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

gellio said:


> Seriously, these are so dumb and they've clogged up the entire first page of this board.


I'm sorry you're not enjoying these. I know how it feels to have the board clogged up by topics that you find pointless. However, many of us are having a great time with these and I continue to receive requests. And for me the educational value is priceless. If many feel the tournaments need to be moved elsewhere I certainly won't resist. However, I definitely don't intend to stop creating them as long as they're being enjoyed


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

gellio said:


> Seriously, these are so dumb and they've clogged up the entire first page of this board.


Why is it dumb to consider and compare the qualities of singers on an opera forum? If this were a mere competition or poll I'd agree with you and wouldn't be very interested, but we aren't limited to bare assertions of preference. Some of these pairings provide strong contrasts of voice, technique, style and interpretation, while others present singers basically similar and distinguishable in subtler ways. Some of us may have knowledge and insights that others of us can learn from. And, not least, we may hear singers we were unaware of. For example, I'm grateful to Bonetan for introducing me to Florence Quartararo, who not only was a remarkable singer but also has an interesting story.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Why is it dumb to consider and compare the qualities of singers on an opera forum? If this were a mere competition or poll I'd agree with you and wouldn't be very interested, but we aren't limited to bare assertions of preference. Some of these pairings provide strong contrasts of voice, technique, style and interpretation, while others present singers basically similar and distinguishable in subtler ways. Some of us may have knowledge and insights that others of us can learn from. And, not least, we may hear singers we were unaware of. *For example, I'm grateful to Bonetan for introducing me to Florence Quartararo, who not only was a remarkable singer but also has an interesting story.*


All credit to Silentio for Quartararo! I'm very happy he exposed me to this fantastic singer as well


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> All credit to Silentio for Quartararo! I'm very happy he exposed me to this fantastic singer as well


Thanks, then, to both of you.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

gellio said:


> Seriously, these are so dumb and they've clogged up the entire first page of this board.


The threads Bonetan have posted since Christmas alone have been seen *6500+ times* and prompted over *200 replies*. They have caught the imagination and are a very welcome contribution.

They are not "clogging up" the board - they are currently the main event. What precisely is he clearing the way _for_? Read the precis for goodness sake: "Forum for discussing operas and operettas, as well as opera singers and related topics."

What is _really_ "dumb" is trying to stifle some of the very few active discussions.


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