# How does one make themself like a composition which they do not like?



## Lord Lance

My question is not limited to mere liking. If you can't understand the piece, if the piece is making you impatient, etc., What do you do?

I was recently listening to Mahler's Seventh Symphony's First Movement and I realized that I could not retain a single note. No melody, no theme, no carry-over. If you think, I have average retension capacity, then you are wrong as remembering a mere melody is usually simple. [I fell in love with the themes and melodies present in Brahms' First Piano Concerto on my first listen.]

Another piece, which I was listening to was Night In _The Garden of Spain_ by Falla and similar to my previous experience, I simply could not like the piece! I was baffled with it actually.

At last [This caused me to post this thread here], I was listening to Szymanowsk's Symphony Concertante and the experience was... you get the idea.

After this, I began to pose myself the question, "Am I Am A Bad Listener?". Knowing the answer to this, I came here seeking help.

~ Ludwig van Beethoven


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## Radames

I often find if I like a piece the first time I hear it I get sick of it quickly. Or more quickly than other pieces. Carl Nielsen's 4th Symphony is a good example of something I did not like when I first heard it. It's nicknamed the Inextinguishable but I used to call it the Incomprehensible. I love it now though. I had to hear it 6- 7 times at least.


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## Cosmos

Well to be honest, the same thing happens to me often. Especially when I was new to classical, there were a lot of pieces that I rejected. Some composers I dismissed entirely, and today those same composers/works are among my favorites. I think the more you listen to music, the more you'll appreciate works you before wouldn't.

But that won't be true for everything. Some works you'll learn to love, others you may not enjoy. That's not a bad thing, no one says you HAVE to love Mahler's Symphonies or Szymanowski.

Though if you want to try and appreciate works more, I would suggest researching the historical background and methods of the piece. I.E. When I first listened to Xenakis' Metastaseis I thought it was a load of crap. But when I looked up the concept of the work, I enjoyed it more. It's nowhere near one of my favorites, but I can appreciate it much more with this information.


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## brotagonist

I would find out about the composer. Is this a composer I want to follow? If no, game over  If yes, explore some of the other works. The problematic piece will eventually fit into place.


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## Mahlerian

To second Cosmos here, it depends on _why_ you dislike it. Do you dislike it because, as with the Mahler, you have trouble following the musical development (themes and melodies and motifs), or do you dislike it because there is just something about it that doesn't appeal to you? Often, it can be impossible to tell the difference if you're unfamiliar with a given idiom.

It sounds like the pieces you've cited are late/post Romantic, so you probably are not very familiar with much music in that or later styles. It's not necessarily your fault. Don't close yourself off from anything, and don't try to force it. Just listen and learn and appreciation will come.


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## Vasks

A great melody is wonderful and helps us to love a piece; however, a great piece does not have to have a great melody. What matters is if the journey the composer takes you on in a composition has "something" about it that would cause you to want to explore it some more.


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## Vesteralen

I agree with a lot of what's already been said here, but I have one additional thought. Sometimes it can be the performance that confuses the listener. A conductor whose phrasing is hard to follow can mess up a piece to the point where it can be almost incomprehensible. This is by no means the main reason or most frequent reason for what you describe, but it might be worth checking out a different version of the work before setting it completely aside for a while.


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## Lord Lance

Thank you one and all for all of your replies. Vesteralen, I buy the most famous/critically praised intepretation of all compositions I listen to or atleast the one which has mostly positive reviews.

If interested to know,
Mahler, I have watched Bernstein's Vienna/LSO DVD Mahler set.
I have listened to Mahler of: 
i) Solti/CSO
ii) Kubelik/BRSO
iii) Gustav Mahler Complete Edition
iv) Abbado's Sixth
v) Haitnk's Third
vi) Dudamel's Fifth

For my above mentioned seventh, it was Sinopolis as conductor and for the works for Piano and Orchestra were by Rubinstein. 
Aren't these considered great performances?

Lastly, is it normal to be almost waiting for the piece/the long pauses [*uhm* Bruckner *uhm*]/movement to end? Sometimes the Adagios and Andantes of Brahms drive me crazy. I suppose my impatience won't get me very far, will it?

~ Ludwig van Beethoven


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## Lord Lance

In certain cases, yes, I have found the melody to be unappealing. Its rare and has occured only a few times. For those compositions, I have clarity. I understand the melody. [Even if I don't understand the structure, theme, etc.] In those cases, I simply keep them on the backburner. Maybe after another 10 years, eh?


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## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> To second Cosmos here, it depends on _why_ you dislike it. Do you dislike it because, as with the Mahler, you have trouble following the musical development (themes and melodies and motifs), or do you dislike it because there is just something about it that doesn't appeal to you? Often, it can be impossible to tell the difference if you're unfamiliar with a given idiom.
> 
> It sounds like the pieces you've cited are late/post Romantic, so you probably are not very familiar with much music in that or later styles. It's not necessarily your fault. Don't close yourself off from anything, and don't try to force it. Just listen and learn and appreciation will come.


In certain cases, yes, I have found the melody to be unappealing. Its rare and has occured only a few times. For those compositions, I have clarity. I understand the melody. [Even if I don't understand the structure, theme, etc.] In those cases, I simply keep them on the backburner. Maybe after another 10 years, eh?

~ Ludwig van Beethoven


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## dgee

It's OK! You're just not there yet - don't be in a hurry, listen to what you like and give yourself time. It's encouraging you want to branch into these areas tho so keep having a little dip into great music you are not so comfortable with every now and again. Also, a bit of reading and research reaps huge rewards in classical music - understanding the composer's intentions can help you enjoy their works more


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## Vesteralen

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Thank you one and all for all of your replies. Vesteralen, I buy the most famous/critically praised intepretation of all compositions I listen to or atleast the one which has mostly positive reviews.
> 
> If interested to know,
> Mahler, I have watched Bernstein's Vienna/LSO DVD Mahler set.
> I have listened to Mahler of:
> i) Solti/CSO
> ii) Kubelik/BRSO
> iii) Gustav Mahler Complete Edition
> iv) Abbado's Sixth
> v) Haitnk's Third
> vi) Dudamel's Fifth
> 
> For my above mentioned seventh, it was Sinopolis as conductor and for the works for Piano and Orchestra were by Rubinstein.
> Aren't these considered great performances?
> 
> Lastly, is it normal to be almost waiting for the piece/the long pauses [*uhm* Bruckner *uhm*]/movement to end? Sometimes the Adagios and Andantes of Brahms drive me crazy. I suppose my impatience won't get me very far, will it?
> 
> ~ Ludwig van Beethoven


Well, it was worth mentioning anyway.

Impatience with some slow movements? Not that unusual. I find I have to be in just the right mood to really enjoy a lot of slow sections. Most of the time I find myself the victim of our rather sped-up pace of life and I just can't relax enough to bask in the warmth of it all.

Your case may be different.....


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## Lord Lance

dgee said:


> It's OK! You're just not there yet - don't be in a hurry, listen to what you like and give yourself time. It's encouraging you want to branch into these areas tho so keep having a little dip into great music you are not so comfortable with every now and again. Also, a bit of reading and research reaps huge rewards in classical music - understanding the composer's intentions can help you enjoy their works more


Here's a bit shocking part: I don't really have a huge deposit of "comfortable" music. Its rather limited than what I had initially expected. With time, things will improve right?

Regarding reading and research:
How? Could you give me a website where I could read upon the history of composers and their composition? Wikipedia has barely a paragraph for Mahler's Seventh Symphony.

~ Ludwig van Beethoven


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## Mahlerian

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Here's a bit shocking part: I don't really have a huge deposit of "comfortable" music. Its rather limited than what I had initially expected. With time, things will improve right?


So long as you don't give up, yes.



> Wikipedia has barely a paragraph for Mahler's Seventh Symphony.


There's a very detailed break-down here, and a much more digestible overview here.


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## Lord Lance

Mahlerian said:


> So long as you don't give up, yes.
> 
> There's a very detailed break-down here, and a much more digestible overview here.


Thanks a million, Mahlerian!

~ Ludwig van Beethoven


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## samurai

Hi, LVB, and welcome to the forum. While I understand the basic gist of your original post--and think the advice given by our fellow members is spot on--I would merely suggest that your use of the term "*making oneself like a composition"* is self-defeating and frustrating in the final analysis. It shouldn't have to come to that in one's enjoyment of music, or any other leisure time activity which gives us pleasure/release. It comes off as too Draconian, too much like punishment. 
In my own quite limited experience as a classical music listener, I have found that if I have listened to something 3 or 4 times, and it still doesn't resonate with me, then perhaps that piece just isn't "meant for me". Of course, this is a very subjective and individual assessment, which we all as listeners must ultimately decide for ourselves.
Anyway, let me wish you good luck on this never ending journey of exploring--and *enjoying*-- classical music!


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## Piwikiwi

I usually listen to a piece over and over again and most of the time it works but with mahler just get annoyed. I don't really like the brassy sound and it's all just too long for me. I can appreciate his skill but otherwise it just leaves me completely cold.


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## DaDirkNL

In my early classical music months I completely ignored slow introductions to symphonies, or any piece, at that. I missed out on for example Mozart's 36th, 38th and 39th symphonies.


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## PetrB

"If you are sweating, you are working too hard." ~ my older sibling.

I think you're working too hard on one aspect of music, and therefore missing the big picture. It is as if by focusing upon melody, a recognizable and repeated / developed theme or motif, you are losing sight of the overall fabric of larger symphonic works.

It is like trying to follow one particular colored thread in an extensive and large tapestry.

I'd suggest if you can, pulling your focus back from the close-up detail -- relax, do not worry or concern yourself with 'following,' and let these pieces just run their course and listen instead to the overall fabric or 'the sound.' After a number of more relaxed, as it were, listens, I think what is there "to follow" more explicitly in the piece will start to stand out to you.

You are literally not seeing the forest because you are focused on one tree.

If you came from 'pop' genre music, that is almost all melody driven. Earlier classical music is also much driven by melody, or theme / motif + development. Later romantic did not dispense with that (at all), but became more about an expansive orchestral music, like that analogy made of "tapestry."

_It is not a test, but for your enjoyment_. Pull focus back from extreme closeup to a far wider angle (against your listening _habit_, but entirely possible) and a lot more, I think, will be heard. One good way to do this is 'casual,' I.e. let some recording run while not focusing entirely upon it, or listening when you are literally 'too tired to think.'

It is proven that anxiety is the greatest performance inhibitor, and that includes 'performance' when trying to learn or understand something. That, I think, is where you are in trying to 'understand' some of the music you seem to have a problem with -- you are anxious you won't / don't get it, so now have a self-developed inhibitor and are then 'working against yourself,' and your goal.

All very general, but I believe worth trying as a solution to your 'problem.'

P.s. You can never "make yourself like a composition you do not like." You can, though, begin to hear 'what a piece is about,' including its salient 'operating features,' to at least then better know if you wish to add it to those pieces you enjoy and want to hear again.


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## Blake

Give yourself seven days to like a piece. If not, your TV will go full static and you'll see a little girl climbing out of a well. She will proceed to kill you. Enjoy!


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## ahammel

In my experience, there are at least three different reactions to music I don't like which mean a conversion may be in the cards:

1. _"Oh God, what are these horrible noises?"_

This is usually a case of my ears just not catching what's going on melodically, harmonically, or whatever else interesting the composer is doing.

Favourites that I've felt this way about in the past include:
- Much 20th Century music, especially Bartok and the Second Viennese School
- Bach's late contrapuntal music (_Die Kunst der Fuge_, etc.)
- _Tristan und Isolde_

2. _"I see what's going on, but I don't care for this aesthetic approach"_

I understand what's going on more or less, but there's something about either the instrumentation or the artistic intentions that sounds unlovely to me.

Conversions include:
- Mahler
- Much Romantic music of the "let me angst all over you" school
- Opera and lieder

3. _"I don't mind the aesthetic, but this just doesn't do it for me."_

I appreciate and understand other similar music, but this particular music or composer doesn't sound all that great to me. Often, this is a result of prejudice after a bad first experience.

Conversions include:
- Debussy
- Rachmaninoff
- Much sacred music

In any case, don't torture yourself. Just leave it alone until you feel like giving it another try. Getting some good, detailed programme notes or reading along with the score can help with #1 in some cases; and I've found poking around for related works can help with #3. But mostly, I've just come to like different styles of music by becoming a more experienced listener.

It's also quite possible that you just don't like the music in question, and that's OK. There's always going to be some music, even some great music that lots of other people love, that just doesn't do it for you. (Whisper it quietly, but I don't enjoy Beethoven all that much!)


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## PetrB

ahammel said:


> (Whisper it quietly, but I don't enjoy Beethoven all that much!)


*Pssst!* He doesn't enjoy Beethoven all that much..._ and that is O.K. _


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## maestro267

Repeated listening usually does the trick for me. You'll usually retain something from a piece on your first listen, even if it's not a melody. It might be something as simple as a touch of orchestration; an interesting choice of instruments for a particular passage. But it's something you can build on in subsequent listens. Also, if you rummage around the internet, you might be able to find a more detailed programme note, analysing the music, that you can follow along with as you listen. Don't be ashamed to accept help from others (in this case, the note writer) in trying to understand a piece.


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## Lord Lance

Thanks everyone! Will do so! I was wondering is Bruckner the type of a composer whose composition require a dozen listen before it really captures you in its vastness and you are complete enraptured by its themes? I like certain movements of Bruckner [9's Second Movement being my favorite.] but as a whole his symphonies fail to attract my attention or make me marvel at his masterful composition. [I have Celibidache's, Karajan's, Jochum's and Barenboim's complete symphony cycle and Wand's 9th with NDR] His slow movements are so _slow_, I lose all my patience after a third of the movement has finished. Is this normal for a beginner? I am very eager to make myself a Brucknerian because I know for a fact that if Mahler can be so beautiful [Even if his instrumentation perplex me, his slow movements leave a blank face. Still, there is something so wonderful about him [maybe something to with his orchestraction] that I enjoy his massive symphonic works very dearily. I know Bruckner has that same quality and I shall find them, somehow. With time, I guess?


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## ahammel

Re: LvB and Bruckner. Sounds like you're about a #3 on my classification above. I would heartily recommend that you do _not_ listen to any of his symphonies a dozen times running hoping for an epiphany. That sounds utterly dreadful for somebody who's not enjoying them.

It's probably best to just put Bruckner's Symphonies aside for a while until you feel like giving them another try. I came to Bruckner through Wagner, so you might try giving him a listen. You could try Bruckner in other genres as well: he was an important composer of sacred music, and his String Quintet is rather good.

I don't know that there are any tricks to liking Bruckner, but his symphonies do have a lot of his fingerprints in them. Three key exposition in the opening movement is a signature trick of his. In later movements, he likes to reintroduce thematic material from earlier movements, but with modifications. Often you'll hear something similar to, but not quite like, themes you've heard before.


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## Blake

Yes, I wouldn't keep pounding Bruckner into your dome if you're already not enjoying it. Like ahammel said, wait a while and go back when you feel a certain intrigue. It will turn into dullness if you're just repeating listens without a sense of understanding and excitement.


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## Lord Lance

Vesuvius said:


> Yes, I wouldn't keep pounding Bruckner into your dome if you're already not enjoying it. Like ahammel said, wait a while and go back when you feel a certain intrigue. It will turn into dullness if you're just repeating listens without a sense of understanding and excitement.


I think expect for his slow movements, his fast movements and starters in general do incite excitement within me. There are certain movements which I enjoy.


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## csacks

To me, music is a feeling. Sometimes you love it and sometimes do not. If there is no love, it may be understandig, analysis, historical or technical, or whatever, but not love. To me, keep listening is a matter of discipline, but it comes from the left hemisphere. The love and mostly the joy that I get from a composition, it comes from the right side. It is influenced by emotional or environmental elements, but at the end, there are or not endorphines, and to me knowledge, there is no way to get them other that spontaneusly.


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## Rhombic

This had me laughing for a while! Beethoven asking for help in _listening_ hahaha.
Anyway, more seriously now, I have had trouble with certain compositions sometimes, it's quite usual. I have had problems handling some Mendelssohn music, as well as, for example, Scriabin's symphonies. However, if you don't try to analyse it the first times you listen to it, just pick up a nice moment of the day to enjoy it, you might recall some melodies between each day and you end up liking it. I'm reluctant to review in a critical way any piece (most importantly if I have to comment on the conductor) unless I know it very well.


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## samurai

@ LVB, Re: Bruckner, I would highly recommend his Fifth and Eighth Symphonies.


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## MagneticGhost

I find waiting 20 years and trying again to be quite helpful.
Wagner in my 40s compared to Wagner in my 20s is a very different experience


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## Ukko

Blast! I keep seeing this header in the 'New Posts' column. It is truncated - 'which they do not like' isn't there.

How does one make themself like a compositionalways makes me wonder why anyone would want to.


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## SixFootScowl

brotagonist said:


> I would find out about the composer. Is this a composer I want to follow? If no, game over  If yes, explore some of the other works. The problematic piece will eventually fit into place.


Exactly what I was thinking and it happened to me in a different music genera.


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## Blancrocher

Ukko said:


> Blast! I keep seeing this header in the 'New Posts' column. It is truncated - 'which they do not like' isn't there.
> 
> How does one make themself like a compositionalways makes me wonder why anyone would want to.


Indeed--I've been wondering how to make myself _not_ like a composition, now that my music collection is getting out of hand.


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## Zingo

My advice would be to listen to all music with an open mind and reasonable focus but if you don't like a piece, just move on. There is always other music to explore instead.


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## Ukko

Blancrocher said:


> Indeed--I've been wondering how to make myself _not_ like a composition, now that my music collection is getting out of hand.


Yeah that too. The meaning I read is the one you get by replacing 'like' with 'similar to'. Annoying.


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## bharbeke

Zingo said:


> My advice would be to listen to all music with an open mind and reasonable focus but if you don't like a piece, just move on. There is always other music to explore instead.


This is my general feeling. Consider how long it takes to listen to just those pieces that interest you from composers you like with no repetition. For me, that could take the rest of my life. I may also want to listen to pieces I like more than once. With that in mind, why would I listen to a piece I could not stand more than once?

If the list of pieces you are comfortable with is not long, I would ask how you are choosing the next pieces to listen to. There may be a better branching method for your tastes. Since you value melody, I would recommend seeking out composers and time periods where melody is a strong component of the music. Tchaikovsky, Mozart, and Haydn are good starting places.

There are some times when such a piece will come on the radio or be part of a concert program, and I might give it another try. A different performance can make all the difference. These are the exceptions to the rule, though.


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## guy

I would say listen to it a lot, analyze it, read analyses of it, find out what make it work. I used to hate the Grosse Fuge. Now it is one of my most favourite compositions.


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## DeepR

In the process of getting to know a piece, I don't want to read/learn about it. If I don't (start to) like it purely by listening, then that's the end of the line for me. Generally I don't give up quickly. Some music took me a long time to appreciate. I guess I'm some kind of purist in this aspect, or simply stubborn.


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## Vaneyes

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> My question is not limited to mere liking. If you can't understand the piece, if the piece is making you impatient, etc., What do you do?
> 
> I was recently listening to Mahler's Seventh Symphony's First Movement and I realized that I could not retain a single note. No melody, no theme, no carry-over. If you think, I have average retension capacity, then you are wrong as remembering a mere melody is usually simple. [I fell in love with the themes and melodies present in Brahms' First Piano Concerto on my first listen.]
> 
> Another piece, which I was listening to was Night In _The Garden of Spain_ by Falla and similar to my previous experience, I simply could not like the piece! I was baffled with it actually.
> 
> At last [This caused me to post this thread here], I was listening to Szymanowsk's Symphony Concertante and the experience was... you get the idea.
> 
> After this, I began to pose myself the question, *"Am I Am A Bad Listener?"*. Knowing the answer to this, I came here seeking help.
> 
> ~ Ludwig van Beethoven


I might be able to answer/help, if I knew what recordings you were trying to listen to. :tiphat:


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## Wandering

If they can make you cluck like a chicken....


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## The nose

I don't think understanding and like some kind of music are necessarely connected. Sometimes you just don't like a thing, and it's not a crime, even if it's considered a masterpiece. 
I like that you don't stop at first impressions and try to understand music but when you understand that and still hearing it it's painful for you, turn it off and listen to something you like.


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## Lord Lance

The nose said:


> I don't think understanding and like some kind of music are necessarely connected. Sometimes you just don't like a thing, and it's not a crime, even if it's considered a masterpiece.
> I like that you don't stop at first impressions and try to understand music but when you understand that and still hearing it it's painful for you, turn it off and listen to something you like.


Thank you for the compliment. 



Vaneyes said:


> I might be able to answer/help, if I knew what recordings you were trying to listen to. :tiphat:


My collection of classical music run at 250 GB. I would not where to start. Would YOU tell me a good starting place?

Here's is a very brief summary of composers i have listened to: Mahler, Bruckner, Bruch, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Rameau, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Schoenberg, Vivaldi and Bach.

*SYMPHONIES*

Complete Bruckner Cycles- Jochum, Celibidach and Karajan.
" Mahler Cycles - Solti, Kubelik and Bernstein. I also have the "Mahler Complete Editon" of DG.
" Mozart Cycle - Marriner, Pinnock, Bohm, Mackerass and Hogwood.
" Haydn Cycle - Antal Dorati
" Beethoven Cycle - Karajan, Bohm, Furtwangler, Toscanini, Speed King Harnonocurt, Ormandy, Krips and am starting Chailly's recent cycle.

[Am I the only one who has grown tired of the sound of 50's and earlier cycle's mono recordings? The playing is good, no offence, but I simply cannot bear the hiss and poor audio quality found in cycles as old as Furtwangler. Chailly will be a breadth of fresh air!]

Tchaikovsky's Complete Cycles - Abbado and Haitink
Schubert's Complete Cycle - Sawallisch
Brahms' Complete Cycle - Karajan, Sawallisch and Bernstein
Shostakovitch's Complee Cycvle - Neeme Jarvi
Rachmaninoff Complete Cycle - Ashkenazy

*PIANO CONCERTI*
Beethoven - Maria Grinberg, Barenboim[Self and Klemperer], Ashkenazy[Self and Solti], Arrau, Fleisher, Aimard, Lubin, Kempff, Gould and Gulda. [I am starting Gilels' cycle.]
Brahms' - Serkin, Ashkenazy, Kovacevich, Freire, Pollini, Gilels and Richter's Second.

Tats is a very brief idea of my collection.


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## SteveSherman

ahammel said:


> You could try Bruckner in other genres as well: he was an important composer of sacred music...


This is a point worth emphasizing. I came to Bruckner by singing his motets.

And there's this as well: none of us is unfinished. Our tastes will evolve. We gain experience, in listening as in other activities. You might come back to a composer or a particular work after a year and a) wonder what in heaven's name appealed to you (this was my experience with Britten's Spring Symphony) or b) be astonished that you didn't love it on first hearing.


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