# Elgar



## mtmailey

does anyone here like Symphonies of Edward Elgar?


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## Vesteralen

I love the first and the thrid (as completed by Andrew Payne). The second is something I haven't quite gotten yet, but I am planning on giving it another go.

(I'm investigating and blogging on Elgar on this site, by the way, but I'm doing it chronologically, so it will be a LONG time till I get to the symphonies, BTW)


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## GoneBaroque

I will check out your blog. We will look forward to it. And please do not forget my favorite "The Dream of Gerontius".


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## Manxfeeder

Come to think of it, I've never explored them. A friend went to hear one of them, and he overheard another concertgoer call him Elgar the Endless. I think that's what threw me off the trail.


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## Vaneyes

Drudgery, but I haven't culled him. No. 3 might be an improvement. Thanks, Mr. Payne.


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## mtmailey

well they are the symphonies are fine but i like certain movements like the first movements in 1&3 ,the 4 movement in #2


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## elgar's ghost

The first two are nowhere near being among my favourites - they're not even my favourite BRITISH symphonies (just for the record, those of Brahms aren't my favourite Austro-German ones either, fine as they are) - but they're definitely interesting enough for me to enjoy. I haven't heard the 3rd. Sorry if that sounds like I'm damning them (and the Brahms, for that matter) with faint praise, but I can't go overboard for them like I can with certain others - at least not yet.


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## Elgarian

I've loved the 1st symphony since I was sixteen years old, when I first heard it. My response, then, was something like: 'So _this_ is what a symphony can be!' It was life-changing, in fact. It's still, more than 40 years later, my favourite symphony of all the symphonies I know - a remarkable thing, for a work to be so sustaining over such a large chunk of a lifetime. The transcendental moment in the finale, when a military march is transformed into an exquisitely spiritual passage is still, for me, the most astonishing and inspiring moment in all of Elgar (and I say that, knowing an awful lot of astonishing and inspiring moments in Elgar).

The 2nd symphony is much more difficult, I find. Very troubled, composed in very different humour to the 1st. But it has passages of great beauty - and I find the slow movement is intensely moving.

The 3rd symphony is a triumph by Anthony Payne, rescuing a fine symphony from the sparse wreckage that Elgar left behind. The story of how he put it together (described in his book) is well worth reading, as is the tale of Elgar's late-blossoming love for Vera Hockman, which inspired the second subject in the first movement.


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## Llyranor

I quite like the 1st.

The first 1:30 of this video (last movement) is my favorite part of the symphony (which I think is that passage that elgarian is referring to, maybe):





His slow movement is also very moving (esp. 2:58!):





I still haven't listened to the 2nd symphony enough to get a good grasp of it, but I remember also liking the slow movement. I'm quite fond of the part from 1:20 until around 2min.


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## Elgarian

Llyranor said:


> The first 1:30 of this video (last movement) is my favorite part of the symphony (which I think is that passage that elgarian is referring to, maybe):


Yes, that's the passage I was referring to, although in this this extract you only hear the transformed version of the tune, and not what led to it. It is of course very beautiful on its own, but what makes it so remarkable is the fact that it's derived from the militaristic passage that precedes it. Here, we don't hear it in its context, which is crucial.

Also in this excerpt from the finale we hear the return of the wonderful stately theme that began the whole symphony, expressing Elgar's deepest hopes and chivalric longings for the future. Fabulous stuff.


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## clavichorder

I found the 2nd symphony thicker and more concentrated than even a Brahms symphony, almost too thick at first, but I quite like it now. I know some people who find the symbol crash in the first movement trite and a flaw in an otherwise good work, but we can't be too picky can we?


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## Chris

I love every bar of Elgar's symphonies. The third represents a remarkable achievement by Andrew Payne. I can't think of a more successful reconstruction. 

The first has always been more popular than the second in UK. It (the first) is the most played British symphony (Vaughan Williams' sixth is in second place). Elgar was not happy with the audience's muted enthusiasm at the premiere of the second. He said afterwards 'They sat there like stuffed pigs.'


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## Aramis

I don't like Elgar's symphonies but I've voted "yes" because the question is "does anyone like elgar symphonies?" and I'm sure that there is someone who likes them.


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## Taneyev

Don't know Elgar's symphonies. Have never listen to any of them. 
Now, it's my turn: do you like Elgar's 5 Etudes Characteristiques Op.24 for solo violin?


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## mtmailey

Manxfeeder said:


> Come to think of it, I've never explored them. A friend went to hear one of them, and he overheard another concertgoer call him Elgar the Endless. I think that's what threw me off the trail.


 well he is a romantic era composer they make music that sounds quit different then it returns to the first part of the melody


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## mtmailey

clavichorder said:


> I found the 2nd symphony thicker and more concentrated than even a Brahms symphony, almost too thick at first, but I quite like it now. I know some people who find the symbol crash in the first movement trite and a flaw in an otherwise good work, but we can't be too picky can we?


 that is true he is a romantic era composer maybe the war made ELGAR depressed then it shows in his music.


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## mtmailey

Odnoposoff said:


> Don't know Elgar's symphonies. Have never listen to any of them.
> Now, it's my turn: do you like Elgar's 5 Etudes Characteristiques Op.24 for solo violin?


 no i never heard them i have heard the quartet,quintet & duo of his.


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## Eviticus

Elgar's first symphony is brilliant. The beginning of movement no.1 is classic Edu! My favourite movement is the fourth, but many critics rave about the third movement.


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## violadude

I havent listend to 1 in depth too much, but no. 2 is great! Its pretty epic.


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## Eviticus

violadude said:


> I havent listend to 1 in depth too much, but no. 2 is great! Its pretty epic.


I must revisit it!


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## moody

GoneBaroque said:


> I will check out your blog. We will look forward to it. And please do not forget my favorite "The Dream of Gerontius".


As long as it's the Heddle Nash /Sargent one.


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## GoneBaroque

moody said:


> As long as it's the Heddle Nash /Sargent one.


or the Richard Lewis / Barbirolli, or the Vickers /Barbirolli, or the Boult / Gedda. It was said that if the score of The Dream were somehow lost the Tenor part could be reconstructed from Lewis' singing.


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## opus55

The two symphonies are both enjoyable but I never seem to have time for Elgar. Too busy listening to other composers' symphonies and chamber works.

I listen to Vaughan Williams more often than Elgar as far as British composers are concerned. I want to explore Bax next year.


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## Sid James

I have heard a couple on radio and somewhat like a Mahler symphony, hearing that for the first time, it's not that easy. Depends which symphony of course.

I've put Elgar's symphonies on the backburner, I've this year got a recording of _Gerontius_ but now I've gone out of the choral vibe.

But now recently gotten into his chamber works again after over a decade - _String Quartet_ & _Piano Quintet_ - which have been great, constantly repeated and very rewarding & I hope to buy a recording of his _Introduction & Allegro_ and the _Serenade for Strings_, which I've heard but not yet owned. _Sospiri_ is great as well...


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## Kalervonpoika

Both of them are great in my opinion. But I've needed almost ten years to realize it. In my opinion you can't listen to this music through headphones.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Kalervonpoika said:


> *Both* of them are great in my opinion. But I've needed almost ten years to realize it. In my opinion you can't listen to this music through headphones.


You mean all three?


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## Kalervonpoika

Sometimes I forget there is a "third symphony", but I'm not interested in it, am I missing something?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Kalervonpoika said:


> Sometimes I forget there is a "third symphony", but I'm not interested in it, am I missing something?


Well, it was never completed by Elgar himself. The third symphony was completed by Anthony Payne and I think it still is overshadowed by the first two symphonies. The third symphony is, as a matter of fact, the only recording of Elgar I have.


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## Eviticus

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well, it was never completed by Elgar himself. The third symphony was completed by Anthony Payne and I think it still is overshadowed by the first two symphonies. The third symphony is, as a matter of fact, the only recording of Elgar I have.


You are missing out! His cello concerto is to die for! His symphony no.1, military marches 1-5, violin concerto and cockaigne overture are sublime too. All quite nationalist really but great nonetheless.

**forgot to add serenade for strings too**


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Eviticus said:


> You are missing out! His cello concerto is to die for! His symphony no.1, military marches 1-5, violin concerto and cockaigne overture are sublime too. All quite nationalist really but great nonetheless.


His cello concerto literally _is_ to die for. Or rather, I would surely kill myself if I have to listen to it again. :scold: I can't stand Elgar. I don't even know why I even bothered to listen to his third symphony that one time three years ago. I haven't listened to it since.


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## Eviticus

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> His cello concerto literally _is_ to die for. Or rather, I would surely kill myself if I have to listen to it again. :scold: I can't stand Elgar. I don't even know why I even bothered to listen to his third symphony that one time three years ago. I haven't listened to it since.


Wow. Is it the moustache or does it go deeper?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Eviticus said:


> Wow. Is it the moustache or does it go deeper?


All of the above.


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## Eviticus

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> All of the above.


You are not alone. I think Elgar's music divides people outside the UK far more than other British composers. However, it has a tone that oozes national pride which is why it unites more people from here than his contemporaries and why many feel his military march should be our national anthem over the boring God Save The Queen... I'd love to change our national anthem.


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## Crudblud

I'd like to change our national anthem to one that doesn't even acknowledge the fact that we still have a royal family*, perhaps just a chorus of "Punch David Cameron in the face" repeated over and over to the tune of the march from the Rienzi overture. 

* = It's embarrassing, nowhere near as embarrassing as the bad joke we call democracy in this country, but embarrassing nonetheless.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Eviticus said:


> You are not alone. I think Elgar's music divides people outside the UK far more than other British composers. However, it has a tone that oozes national pride which is why it unites more people from here than his contemporaries and why many feel his military march should be our national anthem over the boring God Save The Queen... I'd love to change our national anthem.


The Australian national anthem is worse believe me. They should change it to Ligeti's "Lux Aeterna."


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## Arsakes

Yes, they're not particularly great, but good enough. There are only 2 of them composed right?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Arsakes said:


> Yes, they're not particularly great, but good enough. There are only 2 of them composed right?


I'd say two and a half. Symphony no. 3 was completed from the sketches by Anthony Payne.


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## Vaneyes

Any recording recommendations for Elgar solo piano?


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## Vaneyes

Vaneyes said:


> Any recording recommendations for Elgar solo piano?


Yes, I've come across Maria Garzon on ASV c1999, now reissued on Heritage. Enchanting. I shall be pulling the trigger.


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## suffolkcoastal

I love the Elgar symphonies. The 2nd is my favourite and one of my favourite symphonies too, and I sometimes find the depth of emotion in the symphonies totally overwhelming. I think Payne did a pretty good job on the 3rd, though he chose not to use one idea which clearly belongs in the 1st movement and he got the ending wrong. Yes it should end quietly, but the I believe the thing that worried Elgar about the conclusion and why he avoided questions on it was that it was to end with the same idea as in the slow movement's conclusion which indeed was very daring.


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