# Hector Berlioz



## Sid James

Born in 1803 near Lyon, France, at the age of 18 he went to Paris originally to study medicine, but eventually abandoned this to pursue a career in music. In 1826 he began attending the Conservatoire and produced a number of compositions which were not performed. In the late 1827 he saw the actress Harriet Smithson in Shakespeare's _Hamlet_ and _Romeo and Juliet_. He became infatuated with her and she later became his wife. Also in the late 1820's, he attended concerts of Beethoven's music and read Goethe. All of these things were to prove to be important influences in his artistic development.

In 1830 he wrote his most famous piece, the _Symphonie Fantastique_, the seminal piece of the Romantic period, a masterpiece of orchestration and drama. It was subtitled 'Episodes in the life of an artist' and was about his love affair with Smithson.

After winning the _Prix de Rome_, he travelled to Italy.

After returning to France in 1834, he composed the piece for viola and orchestra called _Harold in Italy_, which was inspired by Byon. Paganini had commissioned the work, but although he apparently liked it he never played it as it is not a conventional concerto.

His operas _Benvenuto Cellini_, _La Damnation de Faust_ and _Les Troyens _were not successful in France, but were better received abroad. Berlioz also worked as a guest conductor, and he toured in England, Germany and Russia. To earn extra income, he also contributed to musical criticism, and championed the works of other Romantic composers like Liszt and Schumann.

He was made an _Officier de la Légion d'honneur _in 1864 and died in Paris in 1869.

To sum up, he was one of the great Romantics, successfully integrating the literary ideas of the times into his works. He also revolutionised the use of the orchestra, influencing composers like Wagner and Berlioz's friend Liszt. His use of the _idee fixe _in numerous works was a precursor to the use by Wagner of the _leitmotif_. Ironically, he was not a great pianist, and was only competent at the guitar and flute. His music continued to be largely neglected until the 1950's and 60's, when conductors like Rafael Kubelik, Charles Munch and Sir Colin Davis began including it on their concert programs.

Today, we are fortunate to have many fine recordings of his works widely available. The large forces which some of his stage works require still prohibit regular performance, but his orchestral works have become a firm part of the regular repertoire.


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## JTech82

There's already a post about Berlioz, so maybe you should check that one out.


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## Bach

I re-listened to Harold in Italy, and it came up fresh.


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## Rasa

Let's not forget his treatise "The art of orchestration and instrumentation"


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## Sid James

Bach said:


> I re-listened to Harold in Italy, and it came up fresh.


I'm interested to hear more about your impressions of it, Bach...

Some critics say that _Harold_ surpasses his _Symphonie Fantastique_. I suppose it's difficult to compare them, as they work on many different levels. But one thing that's common is the _idee fixe_, a central repeated theme/idea that binds the works together...

I also think that it's quite revolutionary in _Harold_, how the main character - represented by the viola - dies early on in the last movement. He leaves & the orchestra just keeps on playing. I don't think any other composer had done this type of thing before, it's pretty unique & revolutionary.


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> I'm interested to hear more about your impressions of it, Bach...
> 
> Some critics say that _Harold_ surpasses his _Symphonie Fantastique_. I suppose it's difficult to compare them, as they work on many different levels. But one thing that's common is the _idee fixe_, a central repeated theme/idea that binds the works together...
> 
> I also think that it's quite revolutionary in _Harold_, how the main character - represented by the viola - dies early on in the last movement. He leaves & the orchestra just keeps on playing. I don't think any other composer had done this type of thing before, it's pretty unique & revolutionary.


Well that's Berlioz for ya, Andre.  He was unique and revolutionary. Nobody composed music like him and nobody has since. Truly a one-of-a-kind composer.

"Harold in Italy" is a great piece that he actually wrote for Paganini. I read somewhere that Paganini hated that first movement, but he played it anyway.

It's a great piece, but most everything Berlioz wrote was great.


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## Sid James

Mirror Image said:


> Well that's Berlioz for ya, Andre.  He was unique and revolutionary. Nobody composed music like him and nobody has since. Truly a one-of-a-kind composer.
> 
> "Harold in Italy" is a great piece that he actually wrote for Paganini. I read somewhere that Paganini hated that first movement, but he played it anyway...


Let us not also forget that he was so innovative that he single-handedly created the genre of the song-cycle in France, with his superb _Les Nuits d'ete_. This opened the way for later generations of composers, especially Duparc & Ravel.

As my article says above, Paganini actually liked _Harold_ & paid Berlioz for the commission, but he felt that it would not show off his technique enough, and so never played it.


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## Mirror Image

Andre said:


> Let us not also forget that he was so innovative that he single-handedly created the genre of the song-cycle in France, with his superb _Les Nuits d'ete_. This opened the way for later generations of composers, especially Duparc & Ravel.
> 
> As my article says above, Paganini actually liked _Harold_ & paid Berlioz for the commission, but he felt that it would not show off his technique enough, and so never played it.


Well Berlioz was innovative in everything he did. He was unlike any other composer. Brilliant composer. One of my absolute favorites.

That's interesting about "Harold in Italy." I guess what I meant to say is that Paganini liked "Harold..." but he saw how the first movement wasn't going to show off his talent.

Berlioz wasn't a prolific instrumentalist, so his best compositions are orchestral and choral works. "Harold..." maybe called a "concerto" in some respects, but it's much more than that it's actually more of a rhapsody than anything I think.


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## Guest

Symphonie fantastique, is a work that I just can not get into, and I have tried on numerous occasions to no avail.


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## kg4fxg

*Roman Carnaval Op. 9*

Well,

Been enjoying Roman Carnaval recently. I'll have to see what else I am missing that might be considered in the basic repertoire.

Harold in Italy, Op. 16: I. Adagio - Allegro Me non troppo (Harold in the Mountains)
Harold in Italy, Op. 16: II. Allegretto (Procession of Pilgrims)
Harold in Italy, Op. 16: III. Allegro assai - Allegretto (Serenade)
Harold in Italy, Op. 16: IV. Allegro Frenetico (Orgy of the Brigands)
Rêverie Et Caprice, Op. 8: Adagio
Rêverie Et Caprice, Op. 8: Allegro Vivace
Symphonie Fantastique Op. 14: I. Rêveries - Passions
Symphonie Fantastique Op. 14: II. Un Bal
Symphonie Fantastique Op. 14: III. Scène Aux Champs
Symphonie Fantastique Op. 14: IV. Marche Au Supplice
Symphonie Fantastique Op. 14: V. Songe d'une Nuit Du Sabbat
La Mort de Cléopâtre: Scène Lyrique
La Mort de Cléopâtre: Méditation
Berlioz: La Mort D'Ophélie
Zaide
Berlioz: Waverly Overture
Rob Roy, "Intrata Di Rob-Roy Macgregor"
King Lear, Op. 4
Roman Carnaval, Op. 9
Beatrice and Benedict: Overture
Le Corsaire, Op. 21


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## Sid James

_La Damnation de Faust _is also great...


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## kg4fxg

*La Damnation de Faust is also great...*

Andre

Thanks! I pour over books and sometimes miss some pieces. Always, always looking for something I don't have in my collection - I'll have to listen to some samples of it and scour the shops for a good CD.


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## Aramis

There is a caricature of Berlioz conducting the orchestra with brasses behind his back, basses on right (left of the picture) and shooting canon below, together with shocked audience covering their ears and running away. Any idead what is the title and author or where could I find it? I belive it's XIXth century drawing, but later it was colorized.


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## Faenval

Aramis said:


> There is a caricature of Berlioz conducting the orchestra with brasses behind his back, basses on right (left of the picture) and shooting canon below, together with shocked audience covering their ears and running away. Any idead what is the title and author or where could I find it? I belive it's XIXth century drawing, but later it was colorized.












Is that it? From what I can tell, it was drawn by J. J. Grandville in 1846.


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## Aramis

I saw some other "version" before, but yes, this is it - thanks a lot!


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## Lisztfreak

''Heureusement la salle est solide... elle résiste!'' (in the picture)

 Poor Berlioz... and poor illustrator... what would he have said of Schoenberg's _Gurrelieder_?


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## maestro267

I think of Berlioz as the man who did Mahler before Mahler came along and did Mahler. Just think of his Requiem. Sixteen timpani, ten pairs of cymbals, four tam-tams, not to mention the four offstage brass bands!


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## Aramis

Monsieur Berlioz wrote very beautiful songs. If you did not hear them yet, do not hesitate do get some:


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## anshuman

One of the few composers admired by Richard Wagner


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## clavichorder

Just getting into Berlioz and I have to say its rare that I am in such awe of a composer. He's surely among the wittiest and most creative composers there ever were, his music has such freedom.


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## Curiosity

Heard the Symphonie Fantastique in it's entirety recently. Absolutely loved it. Where next with Berlioz?


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## clavichorder

Curiosity said:


> Heard the Symphonie Fantastique in it's entirety recently. Absolutely loved it. Where next with Berlioz?


Harold in Italy!


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## Guest

Curiosity said:


> Heard the Symphonie Fantastique in it's entirety recently. Absolutely loved it. Where next with Berlioz?


This is one work I just can not get on to, I just can't get past the 1st mov


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## clavichorder

Andante said:


> This is one work I just can not get on to, I just can't get past the 1st mov


That's interesting, I don't think of it as a tough nut to crack. What about it do you find difficult? I used to be a little wary of what I perceived to be a looseness of form back when I thought you had to be Mozart to be any good, and it took me a while to assure myself of the quality of Beethoven(that's an exaggeration, but a funny one). I'm genuinely curious, this is not sarcasm, because the first movement is so rich and wonderful to me, but I hadn't always paid attention to it/shied away so I'm wondering what about it makes it not work for you?

I bet one day it will hit you and you'll wonder what was going on. I had that problem with Brahms for a long time, and Bruckner, and I still have a bit of that problem with Bach.


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## violadude

Andante said:


> This is one work I just can not get on to, I just can't get past the 1st mov


I hear ya. I couldn't get into that piece for a while myself. And even still, I find it a bit overrated.


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## Nix

A great composer with bad taste. I mean how could he honestly think his Requiem was his finest piece? 1 amazing movement surrounded by an hour of drivel. 

Symphonie Fantastique and Les d'nuits are masterpieces. Only heard Harold in Italy once. Overtures are worth passing over, still have to get to his operas.


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## Guest

clavichorder said:


> , because the first movement is so rich and wonderful to me, but I hadn't always paid attention to it/shied away so I'm wondering what about it makes it not work for you?
> 
> I bet one day it will hit you and you'll wonder what was going on. I had that problem with Brahms for a long time, and Bruckner, and I still have a bit of that problem with Bach.


I have tried for years and years but in the end gave up on it, I can't remember what put me off just got bored about half way through the 1st, I will try again to night and refresh my feeble memory, will let you know

I couldn't wait to see if I had mellowed alas I still don't get it. It is not a work that is difficult to get into, just to me it sounds more like an overture than the start of a symphonic work, a number of ideas are introduced but are not developed 'at least not that I can tell' is it the orchestration ??? A lot of the string and wind seem to be in the high register which kind of gets a bit tiering after 6-7 minutes, I guess in the end it boils down to subjectivity sorry not for me.


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## JamesEdgar

Love Damnation of Faust! Such a beautiful work!


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## Jeremy Marchant

Sid James said:


> _La Damnation de Faust _is also great...


Indeed. Someone else has written in this thread that Berlioz invented the song cycle in France when he wrote _Les nuits d'été._ Surely he invented the film soundtrack with _Faust_. The fast cutting between scenes makes it impossible to stage convincingly, yet the drama and he pictures cry out for a visual presentation. I love the orchestration, whether in the dance of the sylphs or the way the trombones are used to represent Mephistopheles. In Colin Davis's Philips recording, they snarl away - what an imagination! And, also in that recording, Jules Bastin is marvellous as Mephistopheles: when he suddenly turns up in Faust's study his "What pure emotion!" addressed at Faust just oozes contempt.


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## jalex

Just looking at his ideal festival orchestra as outlined in his treatise on instrumentation; this would be something to behold:



> 120 Violins divided in two, three, or four parts;
> 40 Violas divided optionally into first and seconds, at least ten of which would at times play the viola d'amore;
> 45 Cellos, divided into first and seconds;
> 18 Double-Basses with 3 strings tuned in fifths (G, D, A);
> 4 Octo-Basses;
> 15 Double-Basses with 4 strings tuned in fourths (E, A, D, G);
> 6 Flutes;
> 4 Flutes in E flat, incorrectly known as Flutes in F;
> 2 Piccolos;
> 2 Piccolos in D flat, incorrectly known as piccolos in E flat;
> 6 Oboes;
> 6 Cors Anglais;
> 5 Saxophones;
> 4 Tenoroons;
> 12 Bassoons;
> 4 Clarinets in E flat;
> 8 Clarinets (in C, B flat or A);
> 3 Bass Clarinets (in B flat);
> 16 Horns (6 of them with valves);
> 8 Trumpets;
> 6 Cornets;
> 4 Alto Trombones;
> 6 Tenor Trombones;
> 2 Bass Trombones;
> 1 Ophicleid in C;
> 2 Ophicleids in B flat;
> 2 Tubas.
> -----------------
> 351
> 
> 30 Harps;
> 30 Pianos;
> 1 very deep Organ, with at least sixteen foot stops;
> 8 Pairs of Timpani (10 players);
> 6 Drums;
> 3 Bass Drums;
> 4 Pairs of Cymbals;
> 6 Triangles;
> 6 Sets of Bells;
> 12 Pairs of Antique Cymbals (tuned to different pitches);
> 2 Large and very deep Bells;
> 2 Gongs;
> 4 'Jingling Johnnies';
> ------------------
> 467 Instrumental players
> 
> 40 Sopranos (children, first and second);
> 100 Sopranos (women, first and second);
> 100 Tenors (first and second
> 120 Basses (first and second
> ------------------
> 360 Choristers


What an imagination that guy had as well, he lists dozens of ideas for novel effects which could be exploited using this monstrous vehicle. The things he could have written if he had decent financial backing...


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## Guest

Seems he missed out 47 Bagpipes all out of tune............


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## Tapkaara

A good composer and definitely innovative. When he's good he's good (Requiem, Symphonie fantastique) but I find some of his work downright difficult. Harold in Italy, for example, has failed to resonate with me as of yet.

Not sure what it is about Harold that I don't like. I guess it just sprawls too much. I am discovering more and more how much I admire concision in music.


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## Sid James

anshuman said:


> One of the few composers admired by Richard Wagner


Wagner also admired Bizet, Bruckner & I'd hazard a guess others like Liszt and Saint-Saens as well. Of composers of the past, Wagner admired many of the big names, esp. Beethoven, probably J.S. Bach & Handel like they all did, and undoubtedly Palestrina, whose _Stabat Mater_ he published an edition of in the 1870's...


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## jalex

Tapkaara said:


> A good composer and definitely innovative. When he's good he's good (Requiem, Symphonie fantastique) but I find some of his work downright difficult. Harold in Italy, for example, has failed to resonate with me as of yet.
> 
> Not sure what it is about Harold that I don't like. I guess it just sprawls too much. I am discovering more and more how much I admire concision in music.


Strange you should single out Harold as sprawling rather than SF which I would have thought more suited to that description. Harold is only about 40-45 mins vs SF's 55-60, and the rough program in Harold is less fantastical and disjointed than the one from SF. In what way do you find it sprawling?


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## Guest

Nix said:


> [H]ow could he honestly think his Requiem was his finest piece? 1 amazing movement surrounded by an hour of drivel.


Here's another possible question along those lines: how could you possibly think his Requiem is one amazing movement surrounded by an hour of drivel?

Plus, to really know if the overtures are worth passing over, you really have to have listened to them and understood them. And then, the passing over would only apply to you. Others' mileage may vary.

I would not even recommend passing over _Reverie et Caprice,_ which even hardcore Berlioz fanatics agree is pretty worthless. I don't ever listen to it any more, but who besides myself could possibly care if I don't?

[I know, I know. I'm responding to a post made in August and it's November now. But I don't usually spend time on threads of composers I admire. Too aggravating. (And I don't spend _any_ time on threads of composers I don't admire!)

Edit: and while I'm at it, I might as well mention that the four brass choirs in the Requiem are most definitely supposed to be _on_ stage. I've seen it done with them surrounding the audience, but Berlioz idea was for them to be surrounding the main group of chorus and orchestra on stage.]


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## Guest

jalex said:


> Strange you should single out Harold as sprawling rather than SF which I would have thought more suited to that description. Harold is only about 40-45 mins vs SF's 55-60.


Sprawl is not just a matter of minutes but of structure and pacing and material. Harold's idee fixe is much longer than either of the Fantastique's two, and I think that contributes to the sense that I share with Tapkaara that that symphony is much looser than the Fantastique. And the Romeo et Juliette symphony, which is quite a bit longer than either, is even more tightly constructed. Berlioz does not give up all his secrets in the first hearing, though, or even the tenth. So I'm sure that many listeners have found that one to be sprawling as well. Why, I even know people who think Bruckner and Mahler are sprawling.


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## Tapkaara

jalex said:


> Strange you should single out Harold as sprawling rather than SF which I would have thought more suited to that description. Harold is only about 40-45 mins vs SF's 55-60, and the rough program in Harold is less fantastical and disjointed than the one from SF. In what way do you find it sprawling?


I'd have to listen to Harold again as it's been a few years. I think that SF has better themes and perhaps it gives the illusion of being somewhat tighter than Harold.


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## Machiavel

THe story for Harold in italy and paganini is interesting. What most people don'T mention or do not know is that after discrediting the work Paganini listen to it 1-2 year after the premiere. He was so ashame about what he had said at the time that he sent berlioz a salary of 15000 francs. I believe it was twice what Berlioz earn each year. Paganini was also known to be a really really really cheap guy.

A friend of mine said to me , and I do not know if it's true, that Harold in italy should be seen as a precursor of Don quixote of strauss. A good 63 years before Strauss if it'S true. DO both work have strong similarity?? ??I'm not familiar with Strauss.


As someone said before A truly one-of-a-kind.


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## jalex

Machiavel said:


> A friend of mine said to me , and I do not know if it's true, that Harold in italy should be seen as a precursor of Don quixote of strauss. A good 63 years before Strauss if it'S true. DO both work have strong similarity?? ??I'm not familiar with Strauss.


It was sort of a precursor to the idea of using single instruments to represent people.


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## NightHawk

_Les Nuits d'ete_ is very, very beautiful. I have two different recordings of it with Anne-Sophie Von Otter and also with the tragically late Lorraine Hunt Lieberson. I wonder if Maureen Forrester ever recorded that work???

He really is a 'one of a kind' composer.



Sid James said:


> Let us not also forget that he was so innovative that he single-handedly created the genre of the song-cycle in France, with his superb _Les Nuits d'ete_. This opened the way for later generations of composers, especially Duparc & Ravel.
> 
> As my article says above, Paganini actually liked _Harold_ & paid Berlioz for the commission, but he felt that it would not show off his technique enough, and so never played it.


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## Vaneyes

Dare I say, the anti-Requiem'ers have not heard the Beecham recording.


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## Jeremy Marchant

NightHawk said:


> _Les Nuits d'ete_ is very, very beautiful. I have two different recordings of it with Anne-Sophie Von Otter and also with the tragically late Lorraine Hunt Lieberson...


Do check out the recording by the English alto, Janet Baker. It's delightful.


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## Romantic Geek

Now, for me Berlioz has just not done it for me. I remember the first time I heard Symphony Fantastique and I thought "THIS PIECE IS SO AMAZING!" But upon a second listen a few months after, I was less than impressed. That's the way I feel about most of Berlioz's pieces that I've heard. Not sure how to get into him again.


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## StlukesguildOhio

Do check out the recording by the English alto, Janet Baker. It's delightful.

A favorite of mine as well since I first discovered it in the marvelous recording by Susan Graham. Since then I've picked up versions by Véronique Gens, Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, David Daniels, Barbara Hendricks, and Jessye Norman. Janet Baker's recording looks particularly intriguing... considering that she also performs Chausson's _Poème de l'amour et de la mer_.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Romantic Geek said:


> Now, for me Berlioz has just not done it for me. I remember the first time I heard Symphony Fantastique and I thought "THIS PIECE IS SO AMAZING!" But upon a second listen a few months after, I was less than impressed. That's the way I feel about most of Berlioz's pieces that I've heard. Not sure how to get into him again.


Well, we can't all like every composer. There's plenty more out there!
However, I would urge you to listen to _The Damnation of Faust_ before you give up on HB. Colin Davis's first recording for Philips has a superb Mephistopheles and it's an excellent performance and recording all round.


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## jalex

I have Crespin's Nuits d'Ete, I think it's perfect.


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## Lisztian

Berlioz is challenging Liszt for first place in my list of favourite composers. His music just has everything, and all with such remarkable creativity, imagination, and a great sense of humour. I think he was one of the greatest musical geniuses who ever lived, and probably the most original composer ever.


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## Novelette

Kg4fxg, I realize that your post was 3.5 years ago, but I definitely recommend to you, and to everyone, to listen to Berlioz's very excellent Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale, Op. 15, such an incredible work!


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## clavichorder

Novelette said:


> Kg4fxg, I realize that your post was 3.5 years ago, but I definitely recommend to you, and to everyone, to listen to Berlioz's very excellent Symphonie Funèbre et Triomphale, Op. 15, such an incredible work!


Thanks for the recommendation. I was exited when I discovered this work existed, but have not fully gotten into it yet. Do you have a recording you'd recommend?


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## Novelette

Clavichorder, I think you will really enjoy the work! I'm surprised it isn't so well known.

I really like the Colin Davis recording; I find it's a lot clearer and more articulate than the John Wallace recording, personally.

I had never heard of Berlioz's Reverie et Caprice before reading this thread last night. I listened to it, and I really enjoyed it. But I can see how it isn't especially popular, even among Berlioz fans, as was said on this thread. I always lamented that Berlioz never wrote anything for the piano, but as he didn't at all play the piano, I can fully understand why he didn't.


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## KenOC

Fact: "The Three Bees" were originally Bach, Beethoven, and Berlioz, per Peter Cornelius who coined the phrase in 1854. Hans von Bülow later bumped Berlioz and substituted somebody named Brahms.


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## Lisztian

^I think it ought to be The Four Bee's.


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## elgar's ghost

I'm also fond of the lesser-known works I've heard such as Tristia (bringing together three pieces written in isolation but often appearing on disc seperately), Sara la baigneuse and one of his Prix de Rome works, La morte de Cleopatre (I haven't heard the other three). There's lots of fine music lurking beneath Berlioz's better-known output. I'd like to get to know his songs better, though - is there a recording anyone would recommend which is a complete overview oh his melodies or, if possible, a single disc that doesn't include the ubiquitous Les nuits d'ete at the expense of any others?


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## Lisztian




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## Novelette

I didn't really care for Les Nuits d'Eté when I listened to it on my own. However, when I came upon several laudations for this work among the various threads on this forum, I decided to listen to this song cycle more intensively.

I don't know what was wrong with me before. I'm especially fond of "Sur les lagunes"!


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## Novelette

So thank you all for giving me impetus [even if indirectly] to re-evaluate that work.


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## KenOC

Love the Valentine's Day card! :lol:


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## moody

Nobody seems to have mentioned his "Grande Messe Des Morts".
There was an amazing "live" recording of this work conducted by the great Dimitri Mitropoulos with the chorus of the Vienna State Opera and the Vienna Philharmonic. The solo tenor was Leopold Simoneau and it was recorded at the Salzburg Festival,1956.
Whether it is still available I know not.
The forces are vast with four brass ensembles placed at the four corners of the stage.


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## Lisztian

moody said:


> Nobody seems to have mentioned his "Grande Messe Des Morts".
> There was an amazing "live" recording of this work conducted by the great Dimitri Mitropoulos with the chorus of the Vienna State Opera and the Vienna Philharmonic. The solo tenor was Leopold Simoneau and it was recorded at the Salzburg Festival,1956.
> Whether it is still available I know not.
> The forces are vast with four brass ensembles placed at the four corners of the stage.


It is my favourite work by Berlioz and it never fails to blow me away. My admiration for it only increases the more I listen to it. My preferred recording so far is the Colin Davis with the LSO.


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## Novelette

Berlioz's romance with Smithson is the perfect candidate for a TV movie.


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## Neoromantic

I rather like Harold in Italy (I'm a violist, can you tell?) and I adore Symphonie Fantastique - however, I think his Te Deum needs some love. I had the good fortune in being able to perform it, and it is absolutely incredible, both as a performance experience and a listening experience. 6 movements and all solid - he has such a command of emotion and the orchestra in this piece that just blows me away. You can also really tell that Tchaikovsky was an admirer! 
Pity there isn't much of a chance to hear it how he wanted it to be performed with his preference for enormous orchestras, though.


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## clavichorder

I am listening to Te Deum for the first time right now, thanks!


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## Headphone Hermit

Eternal thanks to Mr Paul Crossey who introduced me to Symph Fant in a music lesson in 1974/5 and thus planted a seed that a decade later would lead to my first classical record purchase (at a Flea Market) and thus on to thousands of hours of pleasure and enjoyment ..... although ironically, I seldom listen to this piece of work (probably because I know it so well).

I reply to KG4 (above), the basic repertoire MUST include Les Troyens surely??? (64 pounds for the set in 1994 remains my best bargain amongst thousands of CDs since!)


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## Lunasong

Our orchestra just released next year's season, which includes a double bill of _Symphonie fantastique_ and _Lelio_ with which our chorus is singing. I never heard of _Lelio_, but it's supposed to be the sequel to the _Symphonie_. I came here looking for info, but resorted to Wiki:

_*Lélio, ou le Retour à la Vie*_ (English: _Lélio, or the Return to Life_) Op. 14b, is a work incorporating music and spoken text by the French composer Hector Berlioz, intended as a sequel to his _Symphonie fantastique_.

_Lélio_ is a kind of sequel to _Symphonie fantastique_ and makes use of the famous _idée fixe_ (the recurring musical theme symbolising the beloved) from that work. Both the symphony and _Lélio_ were inspired by the composer's unhappy love affairs, the symphony by Harriet Smithson, _Lélio_ by Camille Moke, who had broken off her engagement to Berlioz, prompting the composer to contemplate suicide. _Lélio_ is a record of the composer overcoming his despair and "returning to life" via the consolations of music and literature. Berlioz later revised his intentions, making it seem as if both the symphony and _Lélio_ were about Harriet Smithson (she later became his wife). The symphony uses programme music to describe a despairing artist trying to kill himself with an overdose of opium, leading to a series of increasingly terrifying visions. The programme of _Lélio_ describes the artist wakening from these dreams, musing on Shakespeare, his sad life, and not having a woman. He decides that if he can't put this unrequited love out of his head, he will immerse himself in music. He then leads an orchestra to a successful performance of one of his new compositions and the story ends peacefully.

_Lélio_ consists of six musical pieces presented by an actor who stands on stage in front of a curtain concealing the orchestra. The actor's dramatic monologues explain the meaning of the music in the life of the artist. The work begins and ends with the _idée fixe_ theme, linking _Lélio_ to _Symphonie fantastique_.

It was composed in Italy in 1831, often using previously written music, and first performed at the Conservatoire de Paris on 9 December 1832 as _Le retour à la vie, mélologue en six parties_. It was revised for a performance in Weimar at the request of Franz Liszt in 1855 and published the following year. According to David Cairns, _Lélio_ had the most "immediate impact" of all Berlioz's works, yet the fashionable Romantic features and the mixture of declamation and music which appealed to early audiences have served to date the piece and it is rarely revived or recorded nowadays (emphasis mine).


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## violadude

violadude said:


> I hear ya. I couldn't get into that piece for a while myself. And even still, I find it a bit overrated.


Why did I say this back then? I love Symphonie Fantastique.


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## Novelette

violadude said:


> Why did I say this back then? I love Symphonie Fantastique.


This is also my story with respect to Symphonie Fantastique. It's perplexing in light of how much I enjoy it now.  What was I missing?


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## hpowders

Hey Hector. Everyone else is busy putting down Lang Lang.
I just want to say I love Les Troyens. You were at your best in that one!


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## hpowders

Couldn't add to my previous post.

Liked the Symphonie Fantastique, but wasn't blown away.
Ley Troyens is more like it. Now THAT is "Fantastique"!!!!


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## Berlioznestpasmort

It's intensely theatrical - and not the style nowadays, so seems off-putting at first. Berlioz is almost always theater (he loved Shakespeare). In a more modern context, some folks do not like Kate Bush for essentially the same reason.


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## Vaneyes

Re orchestration, we should not forget Berlioz' appreciation for Serpent aka Serpentine.

*http://tinyurl.com/l5gato3*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(instrument)

http://www.serpentwebsite.com/


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## clavichorder

I have been in awe of Harold in Italy for the last few days.


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## Dustin

clavichorder said:


> I have been in awe of Harold in Italy for the last few days.


I recently heard this piece for the first time as well and I'm also floored by it. I'm convinced now. Berlioz is no second-rate composer.


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## hpowders

He never was second rate. Some day when you feel really ambitious, check out his greatest composition, Les Troyens.


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## hpowders

Moving along with your studies, there are also:
La Damnation de Faust
Roméo et Juliette
Les Nuits d' été


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## Marschallin Blair

hpowders said:


> He never was second rate. Some day when you feel really ambitious, check out his greatest composition, Les Troyens.


_Les Troyens_ is the work of an operatic _Titan_. The live Colin Davis/LSO "Royal Hunt and Storm" from Act III of _Troyens_ just blows other operas away in terms of unbounded joy, heroism, and ecstasy.


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## hpowders

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Les Troyens_ is the work of an operatic _Titan_. The live Colin Davis/LSO "Royal Hunt and Storm" from Act III of _Troyens_ just blows other operas away in terms of unbounded joy, heroism, and ecstasy.


There are no second rate composers, only second rate listeners. (Not really, but it did come right out of my own inebriated brain!)


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## hpowders

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Les Troyens_ is the work of an operatic _Titan_. The live Colin Davis/LSO "Royal Hunt and Storm" from Act III of _Troyens_ just blows other operas away in terms of unbounded joy, heroism, and ecstasy.


In my opinion, for what it's worth, the two greatest operas ever written are Les Troyens and Götterdämmerung.

They are both at the very summit of Mt. Olympus, IMO.

I consider myself fortunate to have seen both at the Met, having to practically crawl into work the next day, after each, since I had a Thursday evening subscription (best seat was available Thursday evenings, of all the subscriptions. I quickly found out why.)


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## Marschallin Blair

hpowders said:


> In my opinion, for what it's worth, the two greatest operas ever written are Les Troyens and Götterdämmerung.
> 
> They are both at the very summit of Mt. Olympus, IMO.
> I consider myself fortunate to have seen both at the Met, having to practically crawl into work the next day, after each, since I had a Thursday evening subscription (best seat was available Thursday evenings, of all the subscriptions. I quickly found out why.)


---
Certainly high ridges in the Himalayas; but Verdi and Strauss are jealous gods as well. Ha. Ha. Ha.


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## Marschallin Blair

hpowders said:


> There are no second rate composers, only second rate listeners. (Not really, but it did come from my inebriated brain!)


You're an incurable optimist. I'd say there are tertiary and quaternary listeners as well. . . _;D_


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## hpowders

Marschallin Blair said:


> ---
> Certainly high ridges in the Himalayas; but Verdi and Strauss are jealous gods as well. Ha. Ha. Ha.


As is Mozart.


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## Dustin

hpowders said:


> He never was second rate. Some day when you feel really ambitious, check out his greatest composition, Les Troyens.


Oh I know all about Les Troyens and it's sterling reputation. I've actually listened to it about twice all the way through and have enjoyed it a lot but I can tell it will take several more listens to even begin soaking it up.


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## Headphone Hermit

Marschallin Blair said:


> You're an incurable optimist. I'd say there are tertiary and *quaternary *listeners as well. . . _;D_


the fossil-like ones? :lol:


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## Headphone Hermit

hpowders said:


> As is Mozart.


Yes, there is a huge mountain range out there (actually .... many ranges of mountains) .... and in the absence of accurate surveying equipment or reliable definitions of what makes the greatest summit, I am content to avow that few peaks look higher, more majestic or more imposing than _Les Troyens_ ... and having been to the top and back over a hundred times, I can thoroughly recommend the journey up and down as well as the view from the top :tiphat:


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## Marschallin Blair

> Originally Posted by Marschallin Blair View Post
> 
> You're an incurable optimist. I'd say there are tertiary and quaternary listeners as well. . . ;D
> 
> Headphone Hermit: the fossil-like ones?


The anencephalic ones.


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## hpowders

Dustin said:


> Oh I know all about Les Troyens and it's sterling reputation. I've actually listened to it about twice all the way through and have enjoyed it a lot but I can tell it will take several more listens to even begin soaking it up.


Yes. My brain can easily soak up two things:

1. Les Troyens

2. Formaldehyde


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## clavichorder

Berlioz is currently one of my favorite composers. Such life in that music. Harold in Italy-I'm still obsessed with it!


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## Lovemylute

I woke up today with Harold in Italy going through my mind (and I haven't even listened to it for a while), but it is definitely one of my favourite pieces of music, and its theme regularly haunts me! It was the first piece of Berlioz I'd ever heard, it was only about a year ago, and I couldn't believe how amazing it was. I was thrilled to have finally discovered this absolutely brilliant and truly original composer. I shortly thereafter heard Symphony Fantastique and Les nuit d'ete (also love them), and I will definitely check out some of the other pieces mentioned here, because I haven't yet heard them all.


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## Vaneyes

Tom Service explores Symphonie Fantastique. Of recordings, I like VPO/C. Davis (Philips, 1990).

http://Tom Service explores Symphon...cording, I like VPO/C. Davis (Philips, 1990).


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## hpowders

hpowders said:


> Yes. My brain can easily soak up two things:
> 
> 1. Les Troyens
> 
> 2. Formaldehyde


I was just about to "like" this post when I suddenly realized, it was mine! :lol::lol:


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## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> I was just about to "like" this post when I suddenly realized, it was mine! :lol::lol:


Nevertheless, you've managed to shamelessly parlay it into two *likes*, with a *like*lihood of further growth.


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## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Nevertheless, you've managed to shamelessly parlay it into two *likes*, with a *like*lihood of further growth.


Sounds eerily similar to cancer as you describe it. Do I not post? Do I not bleed?


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## hpowders

It's all in my book, "Maximum Posts With Minimum Intelligence and Effort" published at _Random_ in the _House._

Now back to Les Troyens.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> It's all in my book, "Maximum Posts With Minimum Intelligence and Effort" published at _Random_ in the _House._
> 
> Now back to Les Troyens.


Good old hpowders. Comic relief since December 2013 .


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## hpowders

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Good old hpowders. Comic relief since December 2013 .


That's why I love Haydn!! He's a soul-mate!!

Back to Les Troyens!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> That's why I love Haydn!! He's a soul-mate!!


All people with a healthy, well-developed sense of humour have to love Haydn - but that's another topic, we're writing in Hector's guestbook.


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## hpowders

I used to attend concerts and whenever a witty Haydn turn of phrase or musical joke was happening, I would look around at the audience. Many of them looked bored stiff. A shame. Why do they even bother attending?

Back to putting the stylus on the record of Les Troyens.


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## Headphone Hermit

Hey, chaps!

I put in over four hours listening last night to the whole of _les Troyens_ (not that I'm complaining - it was a pleasure all the way) so .... can we please have something to say about Hector?

*The call of 'Italie, Italie' in the second Davis set sounds like the tympanist taps on a saucepan lid instead of a good old suit of armour as in the first of his sets.*

Right! ..... who's next?


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## Marschallin Blair

Headphone Hermit said:


> Hey, chaps!
> 
> I put in over four hours listening last night to the whole of _les Troyens_ (not that I'm complaining - it was a pleasure all the way) so .... can we please have something to say about Hector?*The call of 'Italie, Italie' in the second Davis set sounds like the tympanist taps on a saucepan lid instead of a good old suit of armour as in the first of his sets.*
> 
> Right! ..... who's next?







"_Que la déesse nous protège_," Act I, _Les Troyens_.

07:00-07:45

Glorious chorus.

Ridiculous staging.

I looked for an upload of the Davis/Covent Garden-- but couldn't find one.

Sorry, it was the best I could do.


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## Headphone Hermit

Agreed! The chorus are very good, the staging looks dull

I saw the ROH 2012 production (only at the cinema, unfortunately) .... and this is available at 



 (in its entirity, apparently). I liked the visual images, but wasn't really gripped by the playing - I thought the conducting from Pappano was pretty routine and it just didn't come across very comvincingly but .... if you want the full thing on 'tinternet with subtitles, then here you go


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## Tsaraslondon

OK it's in English, but here is a Dido to be reckoned with.


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## Headphone Hermit

Thanks for that, Greg

As you suggest - a formidable Dido. Didn't she also sing Cassandra at some time? 

I was gearing myself up not to like this, but the english was ok really (enjoyable, even) - the only time I missed the french was in the whispered 'nuit d'ivresse et extasse' near the end


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## Tsaraslondon

Headphone Hermit said:


> Thanks for that, Greg
> 
> As you suggest - a formidable Dido. Didn't she also sing Cassandra at some time?
> 
> I was gearing myself up not to like this, but the english was ok really (enjoyable, even) - the only time I missed the french was in the whispered 'nuit d'ivresse et extasse' near the end


There is also a (sound only) clip of her singing Cassandra in 1966 (also in English).


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## hpowders

Nah. I'll stick with Susan Graham, the great Dido of our time.


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## Tsaraslondon

hpowders said:


> Nah. I'll stick with Susan Graham, the great Dido of our time.


No accounting for taste I suppose. I like Susan Graham, I really do. Her version of the scene (with Gardiner's inestimable help) is really good, but Baker is in a different class. You never forget for one moment that this Dido is a queen. Graham can be a but plebeian at times. And though Baker is singing in English, her phrasing is superb, and her voice in prime condition, her singing much cleaner, more classical if you like, with none of the occasional suspect intonation you get from Graham.


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## MoonlightSonata

I love the way Berlioz keeps bringing back the Dies Irae in the finale of the Symphonie Fantastique.


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## Itullian

"The genius with no talent"


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## KenOC

Ravel called Berlioz "the worst musician among the musical geniuses."


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## Marschallin Blair

> Itullian: "The genius with no talent"


-- said by a guy who had talent but with no genius: Bizet.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

J/k, I love Bizet.

It's just that he cross-dressed for _less_. . . . whereas Berlioz cross-dressed for _more_.


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## Itullian

He was a genius.
I just dont feel his music at all. Outside of Fantastique and a couple of overtures.

Not a Bizet fan either cept fot his symphony in C.
I do like The Pearl Fishers.


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## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> He was a genius.
> I just dont feel his music at all. Outside of Fantastique and a couple of overtures.
> 
> Not a Bizet fan either cept fot his symphony in C.
> I do like The Pearl Fishers.


Alongside a masterwork like _Troyens_, I find Bizet's _Symphony in C _a bit _Vogue_-on-the-outside, vague-on-the-inside, myself.


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## Itullian

Marschallin Blair said:


> I find Bizet's _Symphony in C _a bit _Vogue_-on-the-outside, vague-on-the-inside, alongside a masterwork like _Troyens_, myself.


But it makes me feel good and not sleepy.


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## Marschallin Blair

Itullian said:


> But it makes me feel good and not sleepy.


Bizet does seem to be pure Vicodin at times.


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## Headphone Hermit

Itullian said:


> He was a genius.
> I just dont feel his music at all. Outside of Fantastique and a couple of overtures.


If you don't like it, you don't like it .... but ... *BUT* .... how well do you know _les Troyens_? I would understand that some people would take many repeated listenings of this great opera in order to understand the enormity of the genius. I have listened to it over a hundred times during the last twenty years or so and I am still marvelling in the new things that I pick up. It is crammed with emotion of every possible hue, dealt with in the most subtle and sophisticated ways - it is one of the greatest works ever written ... in the opinion of many experts (ie - people who know much, much, much more than I do!)


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## Itullian

I've listened a couple of times. Cant get through it. Maybe some day.
The music doesn't seem to go anywhere.
To me, if you have to listen to something that many times to get it something's wrong.
It seems like "Heavens Gate" or "Cleopatra". Huge but ultimately a fail.
Too many things that I actually enjoy right now.


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## Headphone Hermit

^^^ Ah well, so be it

You don't have to listen to it dozens of times to start enjoying it, but it repays repeated listening

Try starting a thread called 'Music is only worth listening to if you get it after the first few listens' and see what response there is :lol:


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## Tsaraslondon

Itullian said:


> I've listened a couple of times. Cant get through it. Maybe some day.
> The music doesn't seem to go anywhere.
> To me, if you have to listen to something that many times to get it something's wrong.
> It seems like "Heavens Gate" or "Cleopatra". Huge but ultimately a fail.
> Too many things that I actually enjoy right now.


I had the exact opposite experience. The first time I heard the opera was in concert, a 1982 Prom at the Albert Hall. Jessye Norman was Didon, Felicity Palmer Cassandre, Richard Cassilly Enee, and it was conducted by Gennadi Rozhdestvensky. It was played over two nights and I hadn't heard a note of the music before other than the Royal Hunt and Storm.

I fell in love with it instantly and knew that this was an opera I had to get to know. Next stop (because it was the cheapest) was Baker's wonderful recording of the Final Scenes. Then I saved up enough to get the complete Philips set. I've heard it live a few times since too. It is certainly in my top five favourite operas, and I never tire of it.


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## Itullian

OK guys. I'll give it another go. It's on youtube. I'll try watching it today.


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## hpowders

I have a wonderful DVD of Les Troyens, live from Paris in October, 2003, with John Eliot Gardiner conducting an orchestra that had all the instruments that Berlioz envisioned (the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique).

With Susan Graham as Didon; Anna Caterina Antonacci as Cassandre; Gregory Kunde as Énée and Mark Padmore as Iopas.

Recommended!


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## Guest

I was there for that production. Too bad about the machine guns, but oh well. Early twenty-first century was the apex of Eurotrash opera productions.

Anyway, the singing and the orchestral playing were splendid. And that was my first trip to Europe in over twenty years. (Which I did to do a Berlioz pilgrimage. I was in Berlioz' birth room on 11 Decembre, 2003.) So the whole experience was pretty splendid, even though I had to leave the Prague production of Beatrice and Benedict at the first break. Also Eurotrach, but very poorly sung and played, too. I saw Charles Mackerras at the good opera house in Prague the next evening, doing Janacek's Mr. Broucek. That helped take the bad taste out of my ears.

But back to Berlioz and why, possibly, so many people don't like him.

I wondered about this for many years. When I was first listening to classical music, I didn't like Berlioz. The Symphonie Fantastique was OK for me, and the Royal Hunt and Storm I quite liked, but otherwise? Best I could describe it was that it seemed empty, no real substance.

Later, after I had fallen in love with practically every note the man wrote--he is now the one pre-twentieth century composer I can listen to any time--I tried to figure out why I had disliked him so. And then liked him fanatically. And I never did figure it out. But I came across a remark in one of Barzun's books (probably in that two volume bio) that seemed to me to account for my experience: Berlioz does not rely, as Germanic music does, on a cantus firmus. So there is literally nothing "underneath" all the top level music. That can seem, at first, like a bad thing. But it's not. It's a very good thing, for what it means is that all the music is top level (in both senses)--everything is important. And it all takes place, as it were, over the abyss. There's no factitious foundation layer to Berlioz, no long drones in the basses, for instance, to keep things anchored.

Otherwise, there is that whole business of repetition. Berlioz will rarely repeat anything literally; he's always making subtle little changes to his tunes, so each iteration of a melody or a motif is slightly different each time it occurs. Listen to a recording of Colin Davis doing the fourth movement of Symphonie fantastique. Lots of non-exact repetition in that. Very subtle differences at each occurence of a motif. I say Davis, because I've heard other recordings where it's played so that everything sounds the same each time it comes around.

Anyway, no one will like everything. But I have to testify as someone who started out not being satisfied by most of Berlioz to being gob-smacked by almost all of it. And continue to be fed by his amazing music more than by anyone else pre-1906.


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## Tsaraslondon

There are times when I'm listening to Berlioz that I honestly think he was the greatest composer who ever lived. I've just got Colin Davis's box set of the complete orchestral works, and I fear it will start a Berlioz binge. He's like a drug, and I am an addict. One hit is never enough. No other composer ever quite does this to me, not even Verdi. So for the moment my drug of choice is Berlioz and I am indulging myself. It may be several days before I emerge.


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## Mahlerian

Headphone Hermit said:


> Try starting a thread called 'Music is only worth listening to if you get it after the first few listens' and see what response there is :lol:


Funny how people say that music requires and deserves more listens if they already love it, and they say that there's absolutely no need for trying and there's nothing to be gained if they don't.

The truth, of course, is that you can't really know what you'll end up getting out of something.


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## JACE

some guy said:


> But I came across a remark in one of Barzun's books (probably in that two volume bio) that seemed to me to account for my experience: Berlioz does not rely, as Germanic music does, on a cantus firmus. So there is literally nothing "underneath" all the top level music. That can seem, at first, like a bad thing. But it's not. It's a very good thing, for what it means is that all the music is top level (in both senses)--everything is important. And it all takes place, as it were, over the abyss. There's no factitious foundation layer to Berlioz, no long drones in the basses, for instance, to keep things anchored.


Yes!!! Wonderful description. Also accounts for the sensation of fleet-ness and "airy-ness" that's so much a part of his music. To a Berlioz lover, it almost as if you are FLYING! 

I've always loved Berlioz right from the get-go. OTOH, it took me a much longer time to find my way into composers like Haydn and Beethoven -- tho' I love them now too. I suppose that's a reverse path, compared to many.


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## JACE

Mahlerian said:


> Funny how people say that music requires and deserves more listens if they already love it, and they say that there's absolutely no need for trying and there's nothing to be gained if they don't.
> 
> The truth, of course, is that you can't really know what you'll end up getting out of something.


And that uncertainty -- the purely, inexplicably _personal_ response -- is precisely what make music so great.

Or, at the very least, it's one of the many,many things that makes music so everlastingly interesting.


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## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> There are times when I'm listening to Berlioz that I honestly think he was the greatest composer who ever lived. I've just got Colin Davis's box set of the complete orchestral works, and I fear it will start a Berlioz binge. He's like a drug, and I am an addict. One hit is never enough. No other composer ever quite does this to me, not even Verdi. So for the moment my drug of choice is Berlioz and I am indulging myself. It may be several days before I emerge.


Am I hallucinating?!! Greg _Mitchell_?-- giving a qualified Pride-of-Place to_ Berlioz _over_ Verdi_?-- This needs to go viral.

I'm calling Drudge.

Lucky you're in England. I'd smother you with kisses otherwise. . .

Yeah, heady stuff that Berlioz drug.

What the hell just happened with what I just said?

_A Midsummer Night's Troyens_, I suppose.


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## violadude

I was sold on Berlioz after hearing his Requiem and Herold in Italy.


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## Itullian

GregMitchell said:


> There are times when I'm listening to Berlioz that I honestly think he was the greatest composer who ever lived. I've just got Colin Davis's box set of the complete orchestral works, and I fear it will start a Berlioz binge. He's like a drug, and I am an addict. One hit is never enough. No other composer ever quite does this to me, not even Verdi. So for the moment my drug of choice is Berlioz and I am indulging myself. It may be several days before I emerge.


Ahhhhh, but Callas doesn't sing Berlioz.


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## Tsaraslondon

Itullian said:


> Ahhhhh, but Callas doesn't sing Berlioz.


Well she sang Margeurite's _D'amour l'ardente flamme_ better than anyone else. ("There are few Marguerites who whould not wither in the flame of her genius", according to David Cairns in _Opera on Record 2_).

I can only dream what a great Didon or Cassandre she would have made.


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## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> Well she sang Margeurite's _D'amour l'ardente flamme_ better than anyone else. ("There are few Marguerites who whould not wither in the flame of her genius", according to David Cairns in _Opera on Record 2_).
> 
> I can only dream what a great Didon or Cassandre she would have made.


She'd _slay_ me.

No question.

The roles were _made_ for her.


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## Headphone Hermit

GregMitchell said:


> I can only dream what a great Didon or Cassandre she would have made.


and she would have done BOTH wonderfully .... if we are good, if we are *really* good, there may be a place in the great opera house behind the pearly gates where we will be able to sit and listen to this :angel:


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## Don Fatale

Hello fellow Berlioz fans.

I'm preparing my next talk/presentation for my local debating/quasi-intellectual group in a few month's time. My last talk was on Wagner, and it went very well. This time it's another favourite of mine Monsieur Berlioz. Another fascinating character I think.

What I'd like to know are your favourite Berlioz anecdotes and stories I can use to entertain an audience, interspersed with musical selections. In return, I'll post my work in progress in this thread over the coming months.


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## clavichorder

Alexander said:


> Hello fellow Berlioz fans.
> 
> I'm preparing my next talk/presentation for my local debating/quasi-intellectual group in a few month's time. My last talk was on Wagner, and it went very well. This time it's another favourite of mine Monsieur Berlioz. Another fascinating character I think.
> 
> What I'd like to know are your favourite Berlioz anecdotes and stories I can use to entertain an audience, interspersed with musical selections. In return, I'll post my work in progress in this thread over the coming months.


Definitely mine his memoirs. Some things that stood out to me was how he fainted at the sight of the bodies in the morgue, when he had agreed to go to medical school. Another part that stood out was his rivalry as a student with the authority figure of Luigi Cherubini, and how he portrays this very much in his favor in the memoirs. And another thing is how he describes his birth as that of a remarkable personage that would have been heralded by angels in a more poetic age.

Also worth exploring is Berlioz's personal and professional relationship to Wagner. My impression is that neither of them really knew each others language and so had trouble communicating when they met in England I think, under Liszt's recommendation. And also that Wagner admired him but Berlioz though Wagner a genius who stifled his natural creative impulses with a calculating approach, and was perhaps reticent to recognize Wagner as really great partly due to taste, partly out of a competing ego. That's my interpretation from what I've read.


----------



## Chronochromie

Alexander said:


> Hello fellow Berlioz fans.
> 
> I'm preparing my next talk/presentation for my local debating/quasi-intellectual group in a few month's time. My last talk was on Wagner, and it went very well. This time it's another favourite of mine Monsieur Berlioz. Another fascinating character I think.
> 
> What I'd like to know are your favourite Berlioz anecdotes and stories I can use to entertain an audience, interspersed with musical selections. In return, I'll post my work in progress in this thread over the coming months.


Well, there's the famous one about how he composed the Symphonie Fantastique while madly in love with an actress and high on opium. Then there's this: 
"During his stay in Italy, he received a letter from the mother of his fiancée informing him that she had called off their engagement. Instead her daughter was to marry Camille Pleyel (son of Ignaz Pleyel), a rich piano manufacturer. Enraged, Berlioz decided to return to Paris and take revenge on Pleyel, his fiancée, and her mother by killing all three of them. He created an elaborate plan, going so far as to purchase a dress, wig and hat with a veil (with which he was to disguise himself as a woman in order to gain entry to their home). He even stole a pair of double-barrelled pistols from the Academy to kill them with, saving a single shot for himself. Planning out his action with great care, Berlioz purchased phials of strychnine and laudanum to use as poisons in the event of a pistol jamming.

Despite this careful planning, Berlioz failed to carry the plot through. By the time he had reached Genoa, he "left his disguise in the side pocket of the carriage". After arriving in Nice (at that time, part of Italy), he reconsidered the entire plan, deciding it to be inappropriate and foolish. He sent a letter to the Academy in Rome, requesting that he be allowed to return. This request was accepted, and he prepared for his trip back."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Berlioz


----------



## Don Fatale

This last episode about him preparing to commit mass murder (which I also read on Wikipedia) was the clincher in my decision to do Berlioz for the talk.

I also like the story about his anonymous entry of "Where Sheep May Safely Graze" (?), where the judge commented "If only Monsieur Berlioz could compose music of such simple elegance. (or something to that effect.

Plus of course his ardent stalking of Harriet Smithson!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

Alexander said:


> This last episode about him preparing to commit mass murder (which I also read on Wikipedia) was the clincher in my decision to do Berlioz for the talk.
> 
> I also like the story about his anonymous entry of "Where Sheep May Safely Graze" (?), where the judge commented "If only Monsieur Berlioz could compose music of such simple elegance. (or something to that effect.
> 
> Plus of course his ardent stalking of Harriet Smithson!


Who subsequently became his first wife. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

-- I'd love for a big-budget modern production film to be made on his life.

How many people have lives interesting enough to make a movie on?

He did.


----------



## JACE

Marschallin Blair said:


> -- I'd love for a big-budget modern production film to be made on his life.
> 
> How many people have lives interesting enough to make a movie on?
> 
> He did.


Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing after reading Holoman's Berlioz biography.

Who would we cast to play Berlioz?


----------



## Marschallin Blair

JACE said:


> Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing after reading Holoman's Berlioz biography.
> 
> Who would we cast to play Berlioz?


Gary Oldman (for the older Berlioz). . . perhaps Daniel Day Lewis (for the younger Berlioz)?


----------



## Headphone Hermit

sigh! Inverness is about seven hours away


----------



## Itullian

Jim Carrey?:lol:


----------



## KenOC

Itullian said:


> Jim Carrey?:lol:


Seriously, that would work.


----------



## hpowders

Berlioz, Les Troyens. End of discussion.


----------



## Don Fatale

hpowders said:


> Berlioz, Les Troyens. End of discussion.


Sorry, why is this the end of the discussion? Could you elaborate?


----------



## hpowders

Bringing the thread back to reality, since it was meandering away from the topic. Les Troyens is most likely Berlioz' greatest work. On the same level as Götterdämmerung, both in length and in inspiration.


----------



## Don Fatale

I have difficulty with this Les Troyens ever since I drove off a cliff at 90mph while it was on the radio. I survived, obviously.

By coincidence, I was just about to put on Gotterdammerung, having listened to the preceding parts (Bohm) in recent days. Now I'll put on Les Troyens instead and see what happens (from the safety of my study!)


----------



## Itullian

hpowders said:


> Bringing the thread back to reality, since it was meandering away from the topic. Les Troyens is most likely Berlioz' greatest work. On the same level as Götterdämmerung, both in length and in inspiration.


Funny, I think it's an enormous, crashing bore. 
His other operas as well.
to each his own.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Itullian said:


> Funny, I think it's an enormous, crashing bore.
> His other operas as well.
> to each his own.


So you keep saying!


----------



## Itullian

GregMitchell said:


> So you keep saying!


where?............


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Itullian said:


> where?............


In various other threads!. I didn't dream it!


----------



## Itullian

GregMitchell said:


> In various other threads!. I didn't dream it!


maybe a symphonie fantastique dream


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> If you don't like it, you don't like it .... but ... *BUT* .... *how well do you know* _*les* *Troyens*_? I would understand that some people would take many repeated listenings of this great opera in order to understand the enormity of the genius. I have listened to it over a hundred times during the last twenty years or so and I am still marvelling in the new things that I pick up. *It is crammed with emotion of every possible hue,* dealt with in the most subtle and sophisticated ways - *it is one of the greatest works ever written *... *in the opinion of many experts *(ie - people who know much, much, much more than I do!)


Yes. Great minds think alike. Les Troyens is Berlioz' great masterpiece. Whenever it is performed at the Met, it is always sold out immediately. Can't wait to see it again.

I don't need to rely on "experts". My musical instincts are quite fine, thank you very much! I know a great masterpiece when I hear one.


----------



## Cheyenne

Why haven't I ever listened to Les Troyens yet? Hell, why had I never heard of it before? Time to change the former too!


----------



## Itullian

Make sure you have plenty of Red Bull on hand.


----------



## hpowders

Cheyenne said:


> Why haven't I ever listened to Les Troyens yet? Hell, why had I never heard of it before? Time to change the former too!


Yes. Do please join us.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Itullian said:


> Make sure you have plenty of Red Bull on hand.


Red Bull absolutely not necessary. The opera is brim-full of the most glorious music.

It's no longer than an opera by Wagner and personally I'd far rather listen to it than any Wagner opera, which isn't to say that I don't enjoy Wagner occasionally.

Itullian likes to go on about it being one long bore. Well, there are parts of some Wagner operas that I find one long bore, but I don't go on and on about it. Nor would I tell someone to make sure they have plenty of coffee or Red Bull if they want to discover Wagner. I'd be much more inclined to encourage them. That I don't get the pleasure out of Wagner that others (including Itullian) do is no doubt my failing, not theirs. Do you take my point?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Look what arrived in the post this morning. Can't believe I haven't read them before.


----------



## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> Red Bull absolutely not necessary. The opera is brim-full of the most glorious music.
> 
> It's no longer than an opera by Wagner and personally I'd far rather listen to it than any Wagner opera, which isn't to say that I don't enjoy Wagner occasionally.
> 
> Itullian likes to go on about it being one long bore. Well, there are parts of some Wagner operas that I find one long bore, but I don't go on and on about it. Nor would I tell someone to make sure they have plenty of coffee or Red Bull if they want to discover Wagner. I'd be much more inclined to encourage them. That I don't get the pleasure out of Wagner that others (including Itullian) do is no doubt my failing, not theirs. Do you take my point?












Red Bull would be lucky to take one _up to _the_ Troyens _level.

The high drama of the opening choruses, the Trojan-horse celebration choruses of Act I, the_ Royal Hunt and Storm _of Act III-- this is the stuff that leaves vintage Metallica behind choking in the _dust_.

Red-blooded drama, heroism, ferocity-- its all there for the adrenalizing.

Beauty, subtlety, and passion too.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

GregMitchell said:


> View attachment 56225
> 
> 
> Look what arrived in the post this morning. Can't believe I haven't read them before.


This is a very entertaining book and one that should give you lots of pleasure, Greg. Of course, Berlioz is well known as being an entertaining writer, albeit not entirely reliable as a witness, but the insight that this book gives to how he thought and how he interpreted the world adds interest to his music, I find. I particularly enjoy the vibrant opening to the book - it makes me smile whenever I think about it. Enjoy!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Itullian said:


> Make sure you have plenty of Red Bull on hand.


well, there is plenty of bull available in the 'twilight zone'


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> well, there is plenty of bull available in the 'twilight zone'


Always glad to see another Les Troyens lover posting here.:tiphat:


----------



## Headphone Hermit

^^^ best present I ever received!

Whether the kids and their parents were thanking me for my efforts or celebrating my departure may be debateable, but they were a great set of children in a great community


----------



## hpowders

How many pages is that Berlioz book?

Hopefully it has a fine section on the greatest opera ever written, Les Troyens!


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Memoires - 720 pages

David Cairns Biography - vol 1 - 672 pages; vol 2 - 907 pages

'Pithy' wasn't in Berlioz' vocabulary


----------



## MagneticGhost

Well! I listened to Les Troyens as I've heard such great things in these parts.
The recent(ish) Davis and LSO live.

What a phenomenal work!! 
Thanks for sharing your enthusiasm peeps  I'd probably have taken years to get round to listening to it otherwise.


----------



## hpowders

Headphone Hermit said:


> Memoires - 720 pages
> 
> David Cairns Biography - vol 1 - 672 pages; vol 2 - 907 pages
> 
> 'Pithy' wasn't in Berlioz' vocabulary


For Les Troyens, the greatest opera ever written, in my opinion, I have a "pithiness escape clause". An exception in very rare cases. And this is one.


----------



## Pimlicopiano

Oh my goodness, how does one describe the sound of scales falling from one's eyes. I've finally made time to sit down and watch the broadcast of Les Troyens from the Met from last year. I knew nothing of Berlioz beyond Symphonie Fantastique and Nuits d'Eté. Such glorious music - and this from confirmed Wagnerite (I did the entire Ring at Bayreuth this year). Love how it covers such a vast range of emotions and subjects and above all how intoxicatingly gorgeous it can sound. I've been following it up with listening to the Vickers recordings, and am moving on to other repetoire. How exciting to discover so much new music.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

^^^ Welcome to the club! I think there have been half-a-dozen similar epithany comments about this opera this year on this forum. I hope it brings you as much pleaseure as it has done to me for many years :tiphat:


----------



## hpowders

^^^^^Post 164-From Post 166. Glad to hear. Les Troyens is a marvelous score!!


----------



## Dim7

Am I the only one who thinks that the first movement of Symphonie fantastique sounds more like otherwise good but overlong intro rather than a proper first movement of a symphony? There's plenty of good ideas there, but it sounds just so jumbled...


----------



## hpowders

Yes! You are the only one. Don't fret. That makes you unique!!


----------



## Dim7

Aren't I such a special little snowflake....


----------



## hpowders

Too bad Berlioz isn't still alive. Then you could have complained to him on our famous "Ask A Composer" thread, that we have set up for ultra-premium-members.


----------



## Albert7

I apologize for missing your composer of the month  but I promise to make it up to you. Next month will be Lizst month but Fridays I can go ahead and hear your works too.


----------



## Dim7

hpowders said:


> Too bad Berlioz isn't still alive. Then you could have complained to him on our famous "Ask A Composer" thread, that we have set up for ultra-premium-members.


Aren't classical composers like, dead by definition? Sounds like a silly thread concept...


----------



## Headphone Hermit

Dim7 said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the first movement of Symphonie fantastique sounds more like otherwise good but overlong intro rather than a proper first movement of a symphony? There's plenty of good ideas there, but it sounds just so jumbled...


Berlioz has always had critics ... and often the criticism is along the lines of 'I don't understand why .....'. That lack of understanding is seldom Hector's fault


----------



## hpowders

Dim7 said:


> Aren't classical composers like, dead by definition? Sounds like a silly thread concept...


Haven't you heard of time travel for TC premium members? What do you think we are paying for, a Talk Classical coffee mug?


----------



## Dim7

That kinda contradicts with your previous post, but I guess TC premium members have the priviledge to contradict themselves. Plus Leonard Bernstein himself said "Great men are always contradicting themselves."


----------



## hpowders

Dim7 said:


> That kinda contradicts with your previous post, but I guess TC premium members have the priviledge to contradict themselves. Plus Leonard Bernstein himself said "Great men are always contradicting themselves."


Yes. Please don't forget it. :tiphat:


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Barely a week goes by when I don't listen to something by Berlioz, one of the great originals, a man decades, maybe even centuries, ahead of his time. 

I'm listening to his Requiem now (in Colin Davis's superb 1969 recording), a work of immense genius and originality, composed back in 1837, only 10 years after Beethoven's death.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

GregMitchell said:


> View attachment 56225
> 
> 
> Look what arrived in the post this morning. Can't believe I haven't read them before.


What have you thought so far, Greg?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Headphone Hermit said:


> What have you thought so far, Greg?


I'm ashamed to say it's still sitting on my pile of books I need to read


----------



## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> I'm ashamed to say it's still sitting on my pile of books I need to read


I just have this hunch that Greg's a busy man. . . . . . . . . a 'very' busy man. _;D_


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Marschallin Blair said:


> I just have this hunch that Greg's a busy man. . . . . . . . . a 'very' busy man. _;D_


And now you are being provocative - and naughty :lol:


----------



## Marschallin Blair

GregMitchell said:


> And now you are being provocative - and naughty :lol:


You're entirely too charming.

But "'_being_' provocative and naughty?"- have I ever been '_off_' of the _Index Purgatorius_?

Blame Berlioz I guess.


----------



## juliante

Cheeky and sheepish request...

I am really enjoying Symphony Phantastique. I am reading about it and obviously keep reading about the idee fixee. But I can't hear it!!! When does it first appear in the first movement? I have Davis / Concertgbouw.


----------



## Headphone Hermit

here you go - it (or echos and transformations of it) recur all over the work






enjoy!

HH


----------



## juliante

My local library had a a CD sell off sale last week (bliss) and I filled my boots with CM CDs. Up until that point, the only Berlioz I knew was Symphony Phantastique. which like many I adore. But I gained an impression that his other works were all vast, over-whelming and flawed and so had never got round to exploring. But I picked up the oratorio L'Enfance Du Christ as this sale - and I am thrilled by it - it's a gorgeously engaging work, not for a huge orchestra at all. The singing and music are full of tender and intimate moments and there are so many lovely touches of orchestral colour, as I might have hoped from Berlioz. 

Does anyone else enjoy this work? I suspect this is not typical of his oeuvre, but if there are any recommendation based on my enjoyments of this work (him or others) they wold be gratefully received. Also recommended recordings. Can't remember what mine is as it's in the car! It's got a very romantic cover. 

:tiphat:


----------



## Alphamail

juliante said:


> Does anyone else enjoy this work? I suspect this is not typical of his oeuvre, but if there are any recommendation based on my enjoyments of this work (him or others) they wold be gratefully received. Also recommended recordings. Can't remember what mine is as it's in the car! It's got a very romantic cover.
> 
> :tiphat:


I like Berlioz a lot, L'Enfance Du Christ is underappreciated, I agree


----------



## bharbeke

According to ArkivMusic, the first Complete Works collection for Berlioz is now available. It's about 31 hours of music. Please chime in if you find any of those recordings to be particularly worthwhile.


----------



## JosefinaHW

bharbeke said:


> According to ArkivMusic, the first Complete Works collection for Berlioz is now available. It's about 31 hours of music. Please chime in if you find any of those recordings to be particularly worthwhile.


Thank you, B. I saw this release and I was wondering if it is worthwhile, too.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Most of Berlioz's music is vocal, so if you can speak French it helps just in case that box set doesn't offer translation. Too bad for us monoglot Anglo-Saxon sh**t-'kickers, of course. :lol:


----------



## Essey

I don't know if anyone sees it the same way, but the magic, beauty of Berlioz (specifically of his operas) is also in the fact that the music constantly moves and grows and never dies - even after it ends, it can still be somehow felt. It is truly music in its purest form. I have cried because of its beauty. 
The same property that to me seems miraculous, is, to the "common listener" compleatly disorienting. There is no foothold in the pieces. Listening to them, I think, can be completely exhausting. Also, there is no way to rest during it, nor a possibility of understanding the form before it is played in its entirety. There is beauty, but no stability.
Maybe that is the problem the "common folk" has with his works?
Tell me your thoughts,

Essey

PS: I would highly reccomend "La damnation de Faust", (I really liked the Igor Markevitch, I think 1959 recording) and "Benvenuto Cellini" on top of "Les Troyens".


----------



## flamencosketches

I am listening to the Symphonie Fantastique and it kind of "clicks" with me for the first time. Berlioz was a fascinating composer. Obviously a major figure of the early Romantic, but he kind of stands alone among his contemporaries. A true original.

Where to go from here? Other than this, I have only heard Harold en Italie and the short Tristia. I would prefer not to dive headfirst into the massive opera Les Troyens, but it appears that Berlioz, like Mahler and Wagner after him, concerned himself primarily with the large scale.


----------



## Becca

Other than the various overtures and 'bleeding chunks' from operas such as Troyens (e.g. Royal Hunt & Storm) or Benvenuto Cellini (Roman Carnival), you might try Romeo et Juliette and perhaps Damnation of Faust.


----------



## philoctetes

flamencosketches said:


> I am listening to the Symphonie Fantastique and it kind of "clicks" with me for the first time. Berlioz was a fascinating composer. Obviously a major figure of the early Romantic, but he kind of stands alone among his contemporaries. A true original.
> 
> Where to go from here? Other than this, I have only heard Harold en Italie and the short Tristia. I would prefer not to dive headfirst into the massive opera Les Troyens, but it appears that Berlioz, like Mahler and Wagner after him, concerned himself primarily with the large scale.


Les Nuits d'ete, of course. Try this, the Handel is just as good.










Or if you want to go historical, no better time to hear some Maggie Teyte


----------



## Xisten267

flamencosketches said:


> I am listening to the Symphonie Fantastique and it kind of "clicks" with me for the first time. Berlioz was a fascinating composer. Obviously a major figure of the early Romantic, but he kind of stands alone among his contemporaries. A true original.
> 
> Where to go from here? Other than this, I have only heard Harold en Italie and the short Tristia. I would prefer not to dive headfirst into the massive opera Les Troyens, but it appears that Berlioz, like Mahler and Wagner after him, concerned himself primarily with the large scale.


Another suggestion would be his _Te Deum_. It's a personal favorite of mine.


----------



## millionrainbows

philoctetes said:


> Les Nuits d'ete, of course. Try this, the Handel is just as good.


I love Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson in the Handel Arias. Too bad she left us.


----------



## millionrainbows

The Fantastique Berlioz


----------



## Janspe

Going to hear the _Symphonie fantastique_ live tomorrow - it's probably my... 3rd time? - and I'm quite excited. I try to avoid it as much as I can since my local orchestras play it pretty much every season and I don't want to get tired of the absolutely thrilling feeling it gives when experienced live. Nicholas Collon will conduct the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra; a very special evening, since he was just selected as the orchestra's new chief conductor, starting autumn 2021. Looking forward to the concert with keen interest!

I've been very into Berlioz recently. He's not a composer I know terribly well, but delving into Colin Davis' respectable discography has helped a lot. I still haven't mustered up enough courage to walk down the _Les troyens_ path, but it wont take long until that task is unavoidable...


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> Going to hear the _Symphonie fantastique_ live tomorrow - it's probably my... 3rd time? - and I'm quite excited. I try to avoid it as much as I can since my local orchestras play it pretty much every season and I don't want to get tired of the absolutely thrilling feeling it gives when experienced live. Nicholas Collon will conduct the Finnish Radio Symphony Orchestra; a very special evening, since he was just selected as the orchestra's new chief conductor, starting autumn 2021. Looking forward to the concert with keen interest!
> 
> I've been very into Berlioz recently. He's not a composer I know terribly well, but delving into Colin Davis' respectable discography has helped a lot. I still haven't mustered up enough courage to walk down the _Les troyens_ path, but it wont take long until that task is unavoidable...


So how was it? I believe I missed my chance to see it this year. I believe it was performed here back in January. Oh well, it's a popular piece. I'm sure it will come back around.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> So how was it? I believe I missed my chance to see it this year. I believe it was performed here back in January. Oh well, it's a popular piece. I'm sure it will come back around.


Completely missed your reply, sorry for that! The performance was great, I enjoyed it a lot. I must admit that the piece seldom fails to impress me, though. Don't know how badly one would have to conduct it for me to feel unhappy... It's just one of those pieces that sort of "play themselves", if you know what I mean. In any case, it was a thrilling experience as usual. I'm sure you'll get another chance to hear it live again soon!

The same orchestra is doing _La damnation de Faust_ next season, now _that_ will be a night to remember. Never heard it in a concert before!


----------



## flamencosketches

YEah that will be a hell of a night indeed! Glad you enjoyed the Fantastique. I actually just put it on myself. Colin Davis, Royal Concertgebouw. To me, the definitive recording. I haven't heard many, but I can't picture it getting any better than this!


----------



## flamencosketches

Does anyone know what Mahler thought of Berlioz? I feel like the two were kindred spirits.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> I haven't heard many, but I can't picture it getting any better than this!


You seem to be quite fond of Pierre Boulez as a conductor, if I'm not fully mistaken. He's done a solid reading with the Cleveland Orchestra on DG, well worth a listen!


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Does anyone know what Mahler thought of Berlioz? I feel like the two were kindred spirits.


He conducted the Symphonie fantastique more than ten times, I think. It must mean something!


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> You seem to be quite fond of Pierre Boulez as a conductor, if I'm not fully mistaken. He's done a solid reading with the Cleveland Orchestra on DG, well worth a listen!


Yeah I do like Boulez quite a bit. It would be fascinating to hear his take on the Fantastique. I know he is a pretty accomplished conductor of Mahler, but Berlioz is a different breed of hot-blooded Romanticism. But then there is of course the French connection. Perhaps this is a flawed way of looking at things, but I see French music as a continuous tradition that goes from Berlioz through Bizet, through Fauré and Saint-Saëns, through Debussy and Ravel, through Messiaen and Boulez, etc. So in a way, Boulez is kind of the end of the line in a tradition that Berlioz started. Or maybe he is the beginning of something completely different. Hard to tell.



Janspe said:


> He conducted the Symphonie fantastique more than ten times, I think. It must mean something!


Exactly the kinda information I was looking for!  Very interesting!

I wonder if he conducted any of Berlioz's operas...


----------



## Becca

What do you get when you have about 500 musicians and choristers on stage at the Philharmonie de Paris including more trombones than one can count, all kinds of bizarre looking brass instruments and massed woodwinds? The Concert Monstre - Berlioz from 3 days ago (24 June). The concert included _L'Imperiale, Le Chant des chemins de fer, Hymne des Marseillais_ and _Grande Symphonie funèbre et triomphale_

https://live.philharmoniedeparis.fr/concert/1099325/


----------



## BachIsBest

Becca said:


> What do you get when you have about 500 musicians and choristers on stage at the Philharmonie de Paris including more trombones than one can count, all kinds of bizarre looking brass instruments and massed woodwinds? The Concert Monstre - Berlioz from 3 days ago (24 June). The concert included _L'Imperiale, Le Chant des chemins de fer, Hymne des Marseillais_ and _Grande Symphonie funèbre et triomphale_
> 
> https://live.philharmoniedeparis.fr/concert/1099325/


I remember when I first read the instrumentation of the _Grande Symphonie funèbre et triomphale_ I thought there's probably a mistake. The thing calls for over 30 clarinets (if memory serves me well). Who sits down to write some music and thinks - you know what this piece needs is 32 clarinets. That ought to do it.


----------



## Forsooth

Have there been discussions about the meaning(s) of Berlioz' Damnation of Faust, or perhaps interpretations of the work? Or is the interpretation so simple as to require little or no discussion? 

I know the Faust story was generally well-known at the time Berlioz composed his "version." But did he do anything to make his re-telling reflect some of his personal philosophy about good and evil, heaven and hell, judgement and forgiveness, or a sense of the nature of God?


----------



## Becca

A new recording of the Berlioz Requiem ... A Personal Diary of Notable Performances


----------



## Rogerx

Louis-Hector Berlioz (11 December 1803 - 8 March 1869) was a French Romantic composer.


----------



## flamencosketches

Rogerx said:


> Louis-Hector Berlioz (11 December 1803 - 8 March 1869) was a French Romantic composer.


He sure was

Happy birthday Berlioz!


----------



## flamencosketches

Listening to Harold en Italie op.16 from this set in his honor. I don't listen to Berlioz often but I always enjoy what I hear when I do.


----------



## Fat Bob

I have collected a few Berlioz recordings over the years - Symphonie Fantastique, L'Enfance, Requiem (all Davis, studio), Damnation of Faust (Davis live, disappointing sound), Nuits D'Ete (Crespin) and Les Troyens (Dutoit) - and after listening to some more works via streaming have become more and more enamoured of his music. To such an extent that I've taken the plunge and just taken delivery of this little beauty:









The complete works of Berlioz for under 50 quid, bargain of a lifetime. So far I've only had a chance to listen to the Symphonie Fantastique and Lelio (both Martinon conducting, both excellent) - if the rest of the set is up this standard I'm going to be a very happy chappy indeed.


----------



## Granate

Is it worth paying +30€ for this set? It contains at least my favourite Les Troyens recording but I haven't put myself to research the rest of the works. Should I put it in my shortlist ahd hope it keeps the bargain price in 30 days?


----------



## Joachim Raff

Same old, same old. Did Colin Davis view on Berlioz changed? Maybe fiddling around the edges but does this micro conducting ever work? His early LSO days are his best, the later was his pension money but maybe I'm being rather cynical.


----------



## Rogerx

Granate said:


> Is it worth paying +30€ for this set? It contains at least my favourite Les Troyens recording but I haven't put myself to research the rest of the works. Should I put it in my shortlist ahd hope it keeps the bargain price in 30 days?


It' s bargain but I would go for the old Philips recordings .


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## Coach G

I'm not a huge Berlioz fan. _Roman Carnival Overture_, _Harold in Italy_, and especially the _Requiem_ are what I listen to. For the _Requiem_ I have Bernstein, Ozawa, Levine, Robert Shaw, and Colin Davis w/the London Symphony Orchestra. I think Davis does the best to balance out Berlioz' Romantic exuberance, his Classical sense of balance, and French sophistication. Davis' restraint allows all Berlioz' many facets to come to the fore. Levine is good in the _Sanctus_ part of _Requiem_, because he has Luciano Pavarotti and his rich tenor voice in tow, for a _Sanctus_ that I wish could go on forever whenever I hear it. The _Requiem_ releases all the forces of the Apocalypse; a really ambitious and powerful work.


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## Red Terror

I've only just begun discovering Berlioz's music and I am quite amazed that I hadn't given him the time of day sooner. What an exceptionally gifted composer he was! I can't understand why it was that Debussy and Ravel considered him a clumsy genius with no talent. I don't hear anything at all clumsy or talentless in his music—quite the opposite!

How do you all feel about Warner's complete edition?


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## Neo Romanza

Red Terror said:


> I've only just begun discovering Berlioz's music and I am quite amazed that I hadn't given him the time of day sooner. What an exceptionally gifted composer he was! I can't understand why it was that Debussy and Ravel considered him a clumsy genius with no talent. I don't hear anything at all clumsy or talentless in his music—quite the opposite!
> 
> How do you all feel about Warner's complete edition?


Great that you're getting into Berlioz. Even though Debussy and Ravel are two of my absolute favorite composers, their opinions of other composers are of no importance to me. Berlioz is amazing! The Warner is quite good. It would make for a nice starting point for sure, although I must say that you should definitely check out the Colin Davis recordings on Philips. He's kind of my go-to conductor for Berlioz, but there are many other conductors who have turned in superb performances of his music like Markevitch, Bernstein, Gardiner, Herreweghe et. al.


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