# Cruel replacements: A challenge



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

We've had numerous threads about “underrated” or “unappreciated” works. But as somebody once noted, there’s only room for ten in the top ten.

So here’s the challenge: Name one under-appreciated work you believe belongs high in the classical firmament, and also name one work you think should be demoted to make room for it.

I’ll try to think of an example, but will start the thread meanwhile.

Added: Repeat daily until symptoms disappear.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Promote - Myaskovsky Violin Concerto
Demote - Mendelssohn Violin Concerto


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

PROMOTE: Friedrich von Flotow's Martha

DEMOTE: Mozart's Così fan tutte


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Promote: Mahler's Kindertotenlieder
Demote: Beethoven's ninth symphony


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

It's good to see that we are dumping the not-ready-for-prime-time compositions.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Promote: Bruch: Das Lied von der Glocke (The Song of the Bell) Op. 45a
Demote : Wagner - Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

I thought this was supposed to be serious.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I can keep track from time to time:

Promoted to the firmament:
Bruch: Das Lied von der Glocke (The Song of the Bell) Op. 45a
Friedrich von Flotow's Martha
Mahler's Kindertotenlieder
Myaskovsky Violin Concerto

Cast forth into the outer darkness:
Beethoven's ninth symphony 
Mendelssohn Violin Concerto 
Mozart's Così fan tutte 
Wagner - Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

DaveM said:


> I thought this was supposed to be serious.


I think the selections are serious.


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## Guest (May 4, 2018)

Without knowing what compositions everyone else has in their "top ten", this is quite tricksy...oh well.

Promote: Sibelius Symphony No. 4
Demote: Mozart Symphony No 41


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

What's "high" defined as? Which "God" defines the "firmanent"? I'll assume Rob Cowan's Classical 1000 guide as defining the firmament.

Promote: Haydn Symphony No.1
Demote: Saint-Saens Septet Op.65


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Promote: Nielsen Symphony No 1

Demote: Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Would it be better if in _every_ instance the work replacing the one which is cast out has common ground on the category front? Just asking...


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Promote: Berg's _Lulu_
Demote: Beethoven's _Fidelio_


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Promote: Janacek-Katya Kabanova
Demote: Wagner- Tristan Und Isolde


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Demote: Mendelssohn Symphony no. 5
Promote: Raff Symphony no. 5


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Promote: Dvorak - Rusalka
Demote: Verdi - Il Trovatore


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I liked the idea when expressed in the OP but am appalled at nearly all the suggestions! 

I know most of the works mentioned and even when I see one that I don't value being demoted I end up feeling that the replacement is not any better and would become something that I disliked strongly if it got promoted to the top 10. I am posting in good humour but, oh dear, I think I'm going to have a heart attack. Or am I in that "the horror, the horror" parallel universe that was in a different thread a few days back? I do agree, though, with the post from beyond Elgar's grave suggesting that we only do like for like so this doesn't become a genre, or historical period, war.

To contribute with suggestions of my own: 
Promote all those items recently demoted. 
Demote all those items recently promoted.

Aahh - normality restored!


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

Promote ~ Sibelius Symphony no. 7

Demote ~ Tchaikovsky Symphony no. 6, 'Pathetique'


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Today's fantastic choice:

Promote - Weinberg Violin Concerto
Demote - Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto

That's all I've got for violin concertos. Feels good to get the Mendelssohn and Tchaikovsky out of the picture. Tomorrow I'll start in on symphonies that need to go.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Enthusiast said:


> To contribute with suggestions of my own:
> Promote all those items recently demoted.
> Demote all those items recently promoted.
> 
> Aahh - normality restored!


That would take us back to the beginning. I have invested a lot of time on this exercise - wouldn't want it to be wasted time.


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## BiscuityBoyle (Feb 5, 2018)

Please don't take this personally but it astounds me how much some people are still invested in the idea of canon and hierarchy in the year of our lord 2018. Just take pleasure in the music you like jfc


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A couple of further, 19th-century entries:

promote: Liszt - _Christus_
demote: Rossini - _Petite Messe Solenelle_


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> Please don't take this personally but it astounds me how much some people are still invested in the idea of canon and hierarchy in the year of our lord 2018. Just take pleasure in the music you like jfc


Makes no difference what year it is - canon/hierarchy will never go out of fashion. Besides, it's just for fun with a little truth injected.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> A couple of further, 19th-century entries:
> 
> promote: Liszt - _Christus_
> demote: Rossini - _Petite Messe Solenelle_


Is it allowed to demote everything Rossini composed?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'd love to demote something from Howard Hanson, but he doesn't have anything in the top tier to demote.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> Is it allowed to demote everything Rossini composed?


That would potentially liberate a LOT of unjustly neglected works by comparison


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Bulldog said:


> I'd love to demote something from Howard Hanson, but he doesn't have anything in the top tier to demote.


Now with Hanson we´re getting somewhere too ...


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I liked the idea when expressed in the OP but am appalled at nearly all the suggestions!
> 
> I know most of the works mentioned and even when I see one that I don't value being demoted I end up feeling that the replacement is not any better and would become something that I disliked strongly if it got promoted to the top 10. I am posting in good humour but, oh dear, I think I'm going to have a heart attack. Or am I in that "the horror, the horror" parallel universe that was in a different thread a few days back? I do agree, though, with the post from beyond Elgar's grave suggesting that we only do like for like so this doesn't become a genre, or historical period, war.
> 
> ...


Haha. I was thinking exactly the same.


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

I didn't like the idea much, wish I hadn't joined in now. Saint Saens please forgive me! I think a better way to do this would be to take a list, like Rob Cowan's Guinness 1000 and say what you think should be added to make a top 3000. So keep Saint Saens octet but add Haydn symphony number 1 ( and many other works by Haydn... and several by Saint Saens...)


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## Mal (Jan 1, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> I'd love to demote something from Howard Hanson, but he doesn't have anything in the top tier to demote.


If you take "Third Ear" guide as denoting the "top tier" then there are lots of works you can demote.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Demote : Faust by Gounod .
Promote : Doktor Faust by Busoni .


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

laurie said:


> Promote ~ Sibelius Symphony no. 7
> 
> Demote ~ Tchaikovsky Symphony no. 6, 'Pathetique'


One "warhorse" replacing another? Though I would rank your promotion higher than your demotion.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Bulldog said:


> That would take us back to the beginning. I have invested a lot of time on this exercise - wouldn't want it to be wasted time.


But it is vandalism! Two of the greatest operas ever - albeit ones that I would find it difficult to find the money to see - have been removed to make way for sleepfests.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Mal said:


> If you take "Third Ear" guide as denoting the "top tier" then there are lots of works you can demote.


This is just a fantasy universe thread; why inject something real into it?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

So far, the sole demotion that would bother me is Beethoven's 9th. However, I'll always defend Art Rock's right to kick it down the street. Okay, I'm ready for more road kill.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

laurie said:


> Promote ~ Sibelius Symphony no. 7
> 
> Demote ~ Tchaikovsky Symphony no. 6, 'Pathetique'





Enthusiast said:


> One "warhorse" replacing another? Though I would rank your promotion higher than your demotion.


I didn't realize that Sibelius 7 _is_ a warhorse ~ ? I never notice it on the endless Top 10, 20, etc. lists; for example, on TC's Top Recommended Symphonies List, Tchaikovsky's 6th is ranked at 13th, while Sibelius' no. 7 is way down the list at #61 !


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> So far, the sole demotion that would bother me is Beethoven's 9th. However, I'll always defend Art Rock's right to kick it down the street. Okay, I'm ready for more road kill.


Demoting Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg for Das Lied von der Glocke or Cosi fan tutte for Martha wouldn't bother you? My God, it's like I've entered the twilight zone.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

laurie said:


> I didn't realize that Sibelius 7 _is_ a warhorse ~ ? I never notice it on the endless Top 10, 20, etc. lists; for example, on TC's Top Recommended Symphonies List, Tchaikovsky's 6th is ranked at 13th, while Sibelius' no. 7 is way down the list at #61 !


You're absolutely correct about the Sibelius 7th not being a warhorse, at least not to the extent of that other guy's 6th.

Put another way, the Sibelius has about 70 recordings on the market; the Russian warhorse has 215. By the way, I highly approve of your action - could be the demotion of the week.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

WildThing said:


> Demoting Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg for Das Lied von der Glocke or Cosi fan tutte for Martha wouldn't bother you? My God, it's like I've entered the twilight zone.


Now you're talking; we are in the twilight zone. Enjoy it before we get kicked out.

I'm not much of an opera fan, so no, I'm not bothered by opera demotions. Well, there is one opera I wouldn't want demoted, but I'm not saying which one.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Promoted - Florent Schmitt's string quartet op.112
Demoted - Ravel's slightly overrated quartet.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> Now you're talking; we are in the twilight zone. Enjoy it before we get kicked out.
> 
> I'm not much of an opera fan, so no, I'm not bothered by opera demotions. Well, there is one opera I wouldn't want demoted, but I'm not saying which one.


It wouldn't be so painful if the works being promoted weren't so obviously inferior


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

WildThing said:


> It wouldn't be so painful if the works being promoted weren't so obviously inferior


But they aren't inferior to the folks making those promotions; for example, Fritz loves "Martha".


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

laurie said:


> I didn't realize that Sibelius 7 _is_ a warhorse ~ ? I never notice it on the endless Top 10, 20, etc. lists; for example, on TC's Top Recommended Symphonies List, Tchaikovsky's 6th is ranked at 13th, while Sibelius' no. 7 is way down the list at #61 !


Fair enough but in the Top 100. So long as it just swaps places with the Pathetique that's fine!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I looked back to see who started this thread. It's KenOC, and he loves to start threads that might invite trouble. I think this is a great thread - gives me the opportunity to get my musical frustrations out of my system.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Bulldog said:


> But they aren't inferior to the folks making those promotions; for example, Fritz loves "Martha".


I like it too. It's a fine work. There's still no way it should replace Cosi in the standard repetoire.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

WildThing said:


> I like it too. It's a fine work. There's still no way it should replace Cosi in the standard repetoire.


I agree. And that reminds me it is three not two of the greatest operas that have been demoted so far. But I have a choice to make now

Demoted: Any work in a classical top 10 that is not classical even if it is orchestral and pays the salaries of an orchestra's players
Promoted: Absolutely any work that actually is classical.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's the most extreme example I could conjure up:

Demote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony

Promote Jeffrey Stolet's Concerto for Orchestra, Cow, and Chainsaw


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## Beet131 (Mar 24, 2018)

Promote: D'indy - Symphonie sur un chant montagnard francais

Demote: Liszt Piano Concerto No. 2 in A Major


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Here's the most extreme example I could conjure up:
> 
> Demote Beethoven's Fifth Symphony
> 
> Promote Jeffrey Stolet's Concerto for Orchestra, Cow, and Chainsaw


Does Jeffrey's concerto come with a video of the chainsaw in action? Not on the cow but on the orchestra members. That way, the work ends in an organic fashion when all the members have been dismembered. :devil:


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Promote - Cage's 4' 33"
Demote - Cage's 4' 33"

Ah, balance is restored to the Force.

May the fourth be with you!:lol:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm in a really good mood today. I was able to do something wonderful for my wife today and am waiting with great anticipation for her to come home from doing a few errands to discover her prize. No, it isn't a chainsaw. :lol:


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> Promote - Cage's 4' 33"
> Demote - Cage's 4' 33"
> 
> Ah, balance is restored to the Force.
> ...


The only problem is that nobody will know that you did anything.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Promote: Janacek-Katya Kabanova
> Demote: Wagner- Tristan Und Isolde


Kata Kabanaova is already acknowledged as a fine opera, and needs no promotion. As to demoting _Tristan und Isolde_, words utterly fail me.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Kata Kabanaova is already acknowledged as a fine opera, and needs no promotion. As to demoting _Tristan und Isolde_, words utterly fail me.


Kabanova is rarely discussed amongst other opera greats, therefore I think would do quite well with promoting. Tristan Und Isolde has spectacular moments no doubt, the overture and Liebestod are beyond reproach and I've no argument with most of Act II. But sorry, try as I might, I can do no more than tolerate a good portion of Act 1


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Promote: Dvorak's Piano Concerto
Demote: Schumann's Piano Concerto


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Eschbeg said:


> Promote: Dvorak's Piano Concerto
> Demote: Schumann's Piano Concerto


I like Dvorak's piano concerto too. I'd hate to lose Schumann's for it though. I think I'd demote one of Mozart's instead.


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## SCSL (Apr 7, 2018)

What a miserable world it must be to live in when the violin concertos of Mendelssohn and Tchaikovsky no longer have any value.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

SCSL said:


> What a miserable world it must be to live in when the violin concertos of Mendelssohn and Tchaikovsky no longer have any value.


They never did have much value for me. By the way, my life is very rewarding and enjoyable. A couple of romantic violin concertos can't change that.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Promote: Beethoven: Der glorreiche Augenblick

Demote: Mozart : 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik'


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Demote: Handel's Messiah
Promote: Britten's Death in Venice


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sonata said:


> I like Dvorak's piano concerto too. I'd hate to lose Schumann's for it though. I think I'd demote one of Mozart's instead.


Not Schumann -- I'd maybe lose one of Brahms's piano concertos. He seems so anxious to make them sound BIG and IMPORTANT! The problem is, he succeeds.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I sugggest demoting that symphony from the guy l don't like and promoting that symphony by the other guy I do like 
Trouble is I can't remember who they are, so will need to come back when I can


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> The only problem is that nobody will know that you did anything.


But I will!! And at the end of the day that's all that really matters.:lol:


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Kabanova is rarely discussed amongst other opera greats, therefore I think would do quite well with promoting.


Perhaps it's a geographic thing? Káťa Kabanová has fared rather well in the UK, largely due to the sterling work that Sir Charles Mackerras did over here in raising the profile of Janáček in general, and his fine operas in particular.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Demote - Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto no. 1
Promote - Merikanto - Piano Concerto no. 3


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Haydn man said:


> I sugggest demoting that symphony from the guy l don't like and promoting that symphony by the other guy I do like
> Trouble is I can't remember who they are, so will need to come back when I can


I suspect you are mocking me! Funny, though.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Bulldog said:


> I looked back to see who started this thread. It's KenOC, and he loves to start threads that might invite trouble. I think this is a great thread - gives me the opportunity to get my musical frustrations out of my system.


I know this is all fun and games and such, but I have to delve deeper here. What's the frustration? The knowledge that when you're listening to a piece of music you like, other people aren't? Or the knowledge that when you're not listening to a piece of music you dislike, other people are? :lol:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> Demote: Handel's Messiah
> Promote: Britten's Death in Venice


THANK YOU. I haven't listened to Death In Venice, but I am still happy with this!



Rogerx said:


> Demote: Mozart : 'Eine kleine Nachtmusik'


YES. I love Mozart but do not particularly enjoy this work. Do you think it'd be so high in the repoirtoire if it weren't written by Mozart?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> I know this is all fun and games and such, but I have to delve deeper here. What's the frustration? The knowledge that when you're listening to a piece of music you like, other people aren't? Or the knowledge that when you're not listening to a piece of music you dislike, other people are? :lol:


The frustration has nothing to do with who is listening to what music. It has to do with numbers.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Promote: Arnold, Concerto for 2 Pianos
Demote: Schumann, Piano Concerto


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Promote: the didgeridoo
Demote: the cathedral organ
:tiphat:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Sonata said:


> THANK YOU. I haven't listened to Death In Venice, but I am still happy with this!
> 
> YES. I love Mozart but do not particularly enjoy this work. Do you think it'd be so high in the repoirtoire if it weren't written by Mozart?


I have't got a clue but in every radio program that one keeps coming haunting me, the only time I use the volume button than.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Enthusiast said:


> I suspect you are mocking me! Funny, though.


No personal mockery meant


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Promote: Schmidt's 4th Symphony
Demote: Schubert's 8th


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Haydn man said:


> No personal mockery meant


But the cap did fit!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Demote: Andrea Luca Luchesi 
Promote: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
:tiphat:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Promote: Varese Amériques 
Demote: Beethoven's ninth symphony


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

BiscuityBoyle said:


> Please don't take this personally but it astounds me how much some people are still invested in the idea of canon and hierarchy in the year of our lord 2018. Just take pleasure in the music you like jfc


This is the only right answer but I'm going to play anyway.

Promote: Schoenberg - piano concerto
Demote: Tchaikovsky - piano concerto no. 1


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Promote: Malipiero - Complete Piano Concertos.
Demote : W. Schuman: Third Symphony


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Promote: Mascagni's L'amico Fritz
Demote: Mozart's Marriage of Figaro


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Promote: Boccherini's cello concertos
Demote: Handel's Water music and music for Royal Fireworks


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Promote - Cage's 4' 33"
> Demote - Cage's 4' 33"


This doesn't make sense, even if 4'33" is a work without predictable content. Every possible "version" will exist in its own eternal 'now,' which is come and gone, so there is no stable, consistent or unchanging 'content' or 'character' with which to even identify one version.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> This doesn't make sense, even if 4'33" is a work without predictable content. Every possible "version" will exist in its own eternal 'now,' which is come and gone, so there is no stable, consistent or unchanging 'content' or 'character' with which to even identify one version.


If you want sense, this isn't the thread for you.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

Promote: Finzi Cello concerto
Demote: Schumann Piano concerto


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Promote - Bunin Symphony no. 1
Demote - Mendelssohn Italian Symphony


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Enthusiast said:


> One "warhorse" replacing another? Though I would rank your promotion higher than your demotion.


 The Sibelius 7th symphony is a fairly well known work and has been recorded many times , but I wouldn't call it a "war horse". IT certainly hasn't been played to death in our time and I don't recall an enormous number of live performances in my day .


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