# Elina Garanca - what's wrong (or right) with her?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

THIS DISCUSSION POPPED UP IN THE BEST DVD DIRECTORS THREAD, AND SINCE IT IS AUTONOMOUS AND UNRELATED TO THAT THREAD, I MOVED ALL THE POSTS TO A NEW THREAD SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THIS SINGER.



Yashin said:


> Garanca takes a lot of believing as Carmen.


 This is a bit off-topic, but since you raised the point, I'll add my two cents.

Elina Garanca strikes me as a shy woman who is insecure and awkward about her own sexuality in spite of her stunning looks. I think that for someone like her, she did a fair job trying to portray a sultry hot-blooded sun-drenched sexual bomb from the Mediterranean side of Europe, being herself the cold blond from the North. It could have been a lot more of a fiasco. She did OK, given that she was trying to incarnate someone who is on the opposite side of the mirror regarding her own self.

Sometimes I don't understand Elina Garanca. How can such an extraordinarily beautiful and talented young woman be this self-conscious and awkward? With her success as a singer and lucrative recording contracts, can't she afford a good psychotherapist? She should talk more often to her real-life friend Anna Netrebko who is miles away from such qualms.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

But Garanca was superb as Charlotte in the Massenet Werter DVD from Vienna with Marcello Alvarez. Now, I love this version and think the director Andre Serban did a terrific job of placing the opera in the 1950's.

Maybe you are right about Garanca, she was certainly brilliant as a colder character like Charlotte.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> This is a bit off-topic, but since you raised the point, I'll add my two cents.
> 
> Elina Garanca strikes me as a shy woman who is insecure and awkward about her own sexuality in spite of her stunning looks. I think that for someone like her, she did a fair job trying to portray a sultry hot-blooded sun-drenched sexual bomb from the Mediterranean side of Europe, being herself the cold blond from the North. It could have been a lot more of a fiasco. She did OK, given that she was trying to incarnate someone who is on the opposite side of the mirror regarding her own self.
> 
> Sometimes I don't understand Elina Garanca. How can such an extraordinarily beautiful and talented young woman be this self-conscious and awkward? With her success as a singer and lucrative recording contracts, can't she afford a good psychotherapist? She should talk more often to her real-life friend Anna Netrebko who is miles away from such qualms.


An interesting analysis. This may contribute to why I like her so much in Andrei Serban 50's-era Werther, where her cool, detached, insecure blonde beauty makes her vulnerable to the ardent attentions of Marcello Alvarez (who in this Hollywood-inspired concept comes off as the dissolute, smarmy, slightly seedy European preying on lonely American housewives). It may well be that Garanca's inherent insecurity helps make her Charlotte's gradual descent into hopeless infatuation and destructive obsession all the more poignant.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Yashin said:


> But Garanca was superb as Charlotte in the Massenet Werter DVD from Vienna with Marcello Alvarez. Now, I love this version and think the director Andre Serban did a terrific job of placing the opera in the 1950's.
> 
> Maybe you are right about Garanca, she was certainly brilliant as a colder character like Charlotte.


Oh my God! Great minds *do* think alike!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> This is a bit off-topic, but since you raised the point, I'll add my two cents.
> 
> Elina Garanca strikes me as a shy woman who is insecure and awkward about her own sexuality in spite of her stunning looks. I think that for someone like her, she did a fair job trying to portray a sultry hot-blooded sun-drenched sexual bomb from the Mediterranean side of Europe, being herself the cold blond from the North. It could have been a lot more of a fiasco. She did OK, given that she was trying to incarnate someone who is on the opposite side of the mirror regarding her own self.
> 
> Sometimes I don't understand Elina Garanca. How can such an extraordinarily beautiful and talented young woman be this self-conscious and awkward? With her success as a singer and lucrative recording contracts, can't she afford a good psychotherapist? She should talk more often to her real-life friend Anna Netrebko who is miles away from such qualms.


I found Garanca rather believing, passable bordering on average, as Carmen, although I prefer ACC.

What I don't get about her is why she feels she can't and doesn't sing Rossini anymore.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

You posted a much more eloquent response though Amfortas haha


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

What was she like in La Cenerentola? I have been looking for a decent DVD of this for a while. I used to love the Houston DVD with Bartoli, Dara and the beautiful Raul Gimenez- I just love his voice. Is the Garanca/ Brownlee DVD from the Met any good? 
I am not a huge Florez fan as he is not that believable and Brownlee seems a bit short and again I am not sure I believe him as the prince( only from YouTube clips)


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Yashin said:


> What was she like in La Cenerentola? I have been looking for a decent DVD of this for a while. I used to love the Houston DVD with Bartoli, Dara and the beautiful Raul Gimenez- I just love his voice. Is the Garanca/ Brownlee DVD from the Met any good?
> I am not a huge Florez fan as he is not that believable and Brownlee seems a bit short and again I am not sure I believe him as the prince( only from YouTube clips)


She was rather good. A thoroughly good cast, and I believe it rates among the greatest Cenerentole (thanks, Nat!). Brownlee is also very good, although he looks a bit 'off' as Don Ramiro in that production. He is not a very tall man, and back in 2008 he was somewhat plump. Although it seems like he's been dancing salsa lately, because he's lost the excess weight and does look rather good now. Still, he's rather short, something that becomes painfully apparent when you put him alongside such a tall singer as Garanca.

If you want someone who looks believable as the prince, I suggest you go with either the Cenerentola from Glyndebourne in 2005(?) with Donose and Mironov (who is rather handsome, although his hair is funny) (this is Alma's favourite Cenerentola, at least it was the last time we checked, and the parts that I've seen have been very good), or the filmed Cenerentola from '81 with Von Stade and Araiza (who is dashingly handsome, by the way (and outsings Mironov by a mile)) (this is my favourite Cenerentola(see my review here)).

_Naqui all'affanno _and _Non piú mesta_:

Glyndebourne





Filmed version





Met





_Si, ritrovarla io giuro_ from both versions:

Glyndebourne





Filmed version





Met





Also, what's with the not liking J-Flo?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> She was rather good. A thoroughly good cast, and I believe it rates among the greatest *Cenerentoli*(?).


Cenerentole (Singular "o", plural "i"; singular "a", plural "e").

And I agree with Aksel's analysis. Garanca is a lovely radiant Cenerentola and sings perfectly, Brownlee sounds good but you need to suspend disbelief at the thought of him sweeping her off her feet. Honorable to the wonderful John Relyea as Alidoro.



> Also, what's with the not liking J-Flo?


J-Flo! I love it.:lol:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

amfortas said:


> An interesting analysis. This may contribute to why I like her so much in Andrei Serban 50's-era Werther, where her cool, detached, insecure blonde beauty makes her vulnerable to the ardent attentions of Marcello Alvarez (who in this Hollywood-inspired concept comes off as the dissolute, smarmy, slightly seedy European preying on lonely American housewives). It may well be that Garanca's inherent insecurity helps make her Charlotte's gradual descent into hopeless infatuation and destructive obsession all the more poignant.


Yup, this one should be called "Charlotte", as she completely dominates it.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Cenerentole (Singular "o", plural "i"; singular "a", plural "e").
> 
> And I agree with Aksel's analysis. Garanca is a lovely radiant Cenerentola and sings perfectly, Brownlee sounds good but you need to suspend disbelief at the thought of him sweeping her off her feet. Honorable to the wonderful John Relyea as *Adorno*.
> 
> J-Flo! I love it.:lol:


Alidoro. *cough*
And don't forget Simone Alberghini as a rather hilarious (but not as funny as Claudio Desderi) Dandini.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Aksel said:


> Alidoro. *cough*


Corrected, thanks.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Interesting discussion, folks. @aksel: I have purchased the filmed Cenerentola, and I suspect it will become my favorite after I watch it. I'm bringing down my UWP like I've been saying; it is at the incredibly low number of 31 now (the lowest in years) and since I'm enjoying my staycation week, by the end of the week this number should be a lot lower - but the Cenerentola is not a priority since I'm tackling first the UW DVDs of operas that I don't otherwise know. 

I got the impulse of buying that Werther after you all said that Elina shines in it. I like Elina, and would love to see her come out of her shell a little more. 

But if I bought it impulsively, I'd break my public oath of not buying anything (short of some unexpected Anna Netrebko new release but I don't think there is any in the works) until my UWP is down to zero, and I wouldn't give Natalie this opportunity to taunt me... LOL So I'll just place it on my amazon.com wish list.

PS - this is going way off-topic, I think I'll move all these posts to a new Elina Garanca thread.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Almaviva said:


> I have purchased the filmed Cenerentola, and I suspect it will become my favorite after I watch it.


An enjoyable production. And, of course, if you're not forever hopelessly in love with Frederica von Stade, you're not fully human.


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## FragendeFrau (May 30, 2011)

So from what you're saying, a Werther with Kaufmann and Garanca might not work? Or have they ever done this together?


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

amfortas said:


> An enjoyable production. And, of course, if you're not forever hopelessly in love with Frederica von Stade, you're not fully human.


Even I'M in love with Frederica von Stade.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

FragendeFrau said:


> So from what you're saying, a Werther with Kaufmann and Garanca might not work? Or have they ever done this together?


It could work quite well, but not in that production. Alvarez makes a better sleazeball (think of his revolting Duke in the ROH Rigoletto).


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Even I'M in love with Frederica von Stade.


Me too, something I find rather surprising myself.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Poor Elina, I even made a special thread for her, and it looks like she is indeed a little bland, because people immediately started discussing Flicka.


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

The only operas I've seen her in is La Clemenza di Tito and La Cenerentola.. I think she was ok in the latter but then again I was very biased in favour of Joyce DiDonato who made me cry with her portrayal.


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

I know this is a very old topic, but an interesting one, so I hope people don't mind me reviving it.

Elina Garanca has always struck me as a singer with a fine instrument, but a very bland singer. I have seen her performances in Carmen, La Cenerentola and La Clemenza di Tito. I once read somewhere in a review of her Met Carmen That she was "like a singing machine". While I'm sure the reviewer meant it as a compliment, that seems to be the main problem for me. Her voice lacks that humanity, which to me is so essential for bringing a character to life. She is able to produce beautiful, lush tones but seems to make no effort in colouring and inflecting her voice to make her characters more believable.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> I know this is a very old topic, but an interesting one, so I hope people don't mind me reviving it.
> 
> Elina Garanca has always struck me as a singer with a fine instrument, but a very bland singer. I have seen her performances in Carmen, La Cenerentola and La Clemenza di Tito. I once read somewhere in a review of her Met Carmen That she was "like a singing machine". While I'm sure the reviewer meant it as a compliment, that seems to be the main problem for me.* Her voice lacks that humanity, which to me is so essential for bringing a character to life. She is able to produce beautiful, lush tones but seems to make no effort in colouring and inflecting her voice to make her characters more believable.*


That is exactly what I heard in her Met broadcast performance of Carmen. NIce rich sound, no sense of the character at all. Boring.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That is exactly what I heard in her Met broadcast performance of Carmen. NIce rich sound, no sense of the character at all. Boring.


I think that she comes across much more interesting in person, i.e. the DVD of Carmen from a few seasons back.

For an interesting view of her, there is a video available on YouTube which was a behind the scenes look at the OpernGala in Baden Baden in 2007 where she sang with Netrebko, Vargas and Tezier. She comes across as quite grounded.

One last comment, someone in the earlier part of the thread asked why she stopped singing Rossini, she said that it was because she didn't have a natural trill which is so necessary for that repertoire.


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## TTVV (May 17, 2015)

Thanks to Almaviva for the original post kicking off this discussion: I must admit to having given more than a little thought to this question over the last years. EG is perhaps my favourite mezzo of the current era, for the perfection of her tone and deep musicality - though, simple red-blooded male that I am, I must admit it was her Gods-second-chance-at-Grace-Kelly gorgeousness which initially drew her to my attention. 

We had the good fortune to spend a lot of time in Vienna from 2004 on (where she had moved to and joined the company) so I can add for example some marvellous Octavians to the roles people have mentioned so far. And probably the most wonderful Cosi of my life, a performance where that most educated of audiences went completely still and silent in rapt awe at the music being made. And, omg, Norma in a concert performance with Edita Gruberova in 2007, especially moving for the sense of the great Gruberova edging towards the end of her career as Garanca was on the way up to similar world star status (that pairing - though not that night - is btw available on dvd).

So you can imagine my excitement when she announced she would bring Carmen to Covent Garden (and on my birthday too). But what a disappointment, as she forced herself into southern-bad-girl poses without any apparent conviction. Despite having given a number of interviews bemoaning her "cool northern blonde" typecasting, and how she wanted to show that this was not the reality, one was left feeling, well maybe she is a cool northern blonde. She looked like a stiff school girl pretending to be Carmen and seemed actually rather embarrassed about it. 

I only met her once - a long radio recording - and she struck me as shy, cool yes, and (although this may be projection) somewhat inhibited by her looks. Someone earlier said grounded, yes that too.

I sincerely hope she has a good family life (two kids now isn't it?) and that she will continue to dazzle us with roles which suit her temperament even if she is occasionally annoyed by the limitations set by nature. There are other options: I saw her once, completely unrecognisable, covered in paint, as Sesto in a modern production - and this was just tremendous too. No being distracted by beauty there, one just concentrated on her celestial voice.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

She is cold. Strangely it works with Mozart against all odds.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Almaviva said:


> She should talk more often to her real-life friend Anna Netrebko who is miles away from such qualms


but do we need a second Netrebko out there really? Garanca has got own style to work within.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

she's not a bad singer, but a bit...boring, imo.


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## TTVV (May 17, 2015)

Sad news just in:-

http://slippedisc.com/2015/07/just-in-garanca-cancels-all-engagements/#comments


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Amazing how we all see things so differently.
I have never seen a performance as sexy, playful, kittenish and charming as Garanca's _Carmen_ with Alagna. No awkard about her sexuality to these eyes It blew me away. The chemistry between them was hot, hot, hot!
I was so looking forward to her _Carmen_ with Kaufmann last March at the Met and even changed all of my plans to be out of the country just to drive to NY for the occasion, and not only did Kaufmann cancel the only two performaces they were supposed to do together but there was a snowstorm of mammoth proportions to boot.
So this season I purposely bought my tickets for _Maria Stuarda_ on the day she was performing with Radvanovsky only to discover that she canceled all performances for the season due to her Mother's illness. Sad all around.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> So this season I purposely bought my tickets for _Maria Stuarda_ on the day she was performing with Radvanovsky only to discover that she canceled all performances for the season due to her Mother's illness. Sad all around.


I know the feeling... who's the substitute ?


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Amazing how we all see things so differently.
> I have never seen a performance as sexy, playful, kittenish and charming as Garanca's _Carmen_ with Alagna. No awkard about her sexuality to these eyes It blew me away. The chemistry between them was hot, hot, hot!


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about her stage presence and physical appeal, where other users have been commenting on the lack of characterization in her singing.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about her stage presence and physical appeal, where other users have been commenting on the lack of characterization in her singing.


From earlier in the thread:



> Despite having given a number of interviews bemoaning her "cool northern blonde" typecasting, and how she wanted to show that this was not the reality, one was left feeling, well maybe she is a cool northern blonde. She looked like a stiff school girl pretending to be Carmen and seemed actually rather embarrassed about it.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Elina Garanca is not the typical 'stage animal entertainer'... but is it a bad thing ? She is a higly musical and intellectual singer with an exceptional voice and I wonder what her new roles will be. In her interviews it shows she has lovely sense of humor. She is fluent in Russian, English, Italian, German... if you're going to sing it, better be able to speak the language as well, I admire this. And I will never forget her singing in Verdi's Requiem.


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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Sloe said:


> From earlier in the thread:


Ah, this is why it pays to read farther back than a handful of posts. I stand corrected, thanks.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I haven't seen her in any DVDs. But she is beautiful to look at and to listen to, so that's a pretty happy combination. Not sure that she'd be my first choice in many roles though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about her stage presence and physical appeal, where other users have been commenting on the lack of characterization in her singing.


That was my take. Garanca may well be perfectly stunning onstage. Her broadcast Carmen from the Met was vocally lovely but dull as dishwater.

I'm sure it didn't help my impressions that I had recently listened to the Callas recording after not hearing it for years and nearly had my head blown off by her incredible imagination, nuance and vividness. Elina needs to have a listen and get a few ideas of what's possible.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Dongiovanni said:


> I know the feeling... who's the substitute ?


Elsa van den Heever


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Faustian said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about her stage presence and physical appeal, where other users have been commenting on the lack of characterization in her singing.


I am not sure I grasp the difference between an exciting portrayal of a character and the "lack of characterization in her singing". Can you possibly have one without the other. I find her characterizations exciting (at least in the _Carmen_).


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## Camillorf (Jul 18, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> I am not sure I grasp the difference between an exciting portrayal of a character and the "lack of characterization in her singing". Can you possibly have one without the other. I find her characterizations exciting (at least in the _Carmen_).


It think what others are saying is that she may be a fine and convincing stage actress, but unable to convey any emotion through her singing. For some people, this seems fine as they get enough excitement from seeing her act and sing beautifully, though the singing itself might be inexpressive and somewhat disconnected from the whole action. For me singing is all about expression through the voice. It doesn't matter how convincingly one can act, if the character is not in the voice it feels like the main part is missing. Contrary to what someone said earlier, Elina Garanca doesn't strike me as a particularly intelligent musician, at least not when it comes to her choice of phrasing, inflections and colouring of the voice to portray a character. Beautiful as her voice might be, it just doesn't move a nerve in my body. She has been boring and predictable in every instance I have listened to her.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Camillorf said:


> It think what others are saying is that she may be a fine and convincing stage actress, but unable to convey any emotion through her singing. For some people, this seems fine as they get enough excitement from seeing her act and sing beautifully, though the singing itself might be inexpressive and somewhat disconnected from the whole action. For me singing is all about expression through the voice. It doesn't matter how convincingly one can act, if the character is not in the voice it feels like the main part is missing. Contrary to what someone said earlier, Elina Garanca doesn't strike me as a particularly intelligent musician, at least not when it comes to her choice of phrasing, inflections and colouring of the voice to portray a character. Beautiful as her voice might be, it just doesn't move a nerve in my body. She has been boring and predictable in every instance I have listened to her.


Ah well, different strokes...


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## TTVV (May 17, 2015)

Sad update, in case people have not heard:-

http://slippedisc.com/2015/07/sadness-elena-garanca-mourns-her-mother/


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

TTVV said:


> Sad update, in case people have not heard:-
> 
> http://slippedisc.com/2015/07/sadness-elena-garanca-mourns-her-mother/


That made me sad.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Despite fans' disappointment, Elina will now be really glad she decided to cancel to be with her mother and that they had that time together.


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## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

Kind of shocked to see so much criticism of Garanca. I thought she owned the role of Carmen in her Met HD. Besides having a strong and lovely voice, she was so confident and seductive in her acting. Her Habanera was a standout. She made such great acting choices in that scene.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Amara said:


> she owned the role of Carmen in her Met HD.


bad production negates it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Amara said:


> Kind of shocked to see so much criticism of Garanca. *I thought she owned the role of Carmen in her Met HD.* Besides having a strong and lovely voice, she was so confident and seductive in her acting. Her Habanera was a standout. She made such great acting choices in that scene.


She's the only Carmen I have seen who actually convinced me as being in any realistic. I've seen far too many 'if in doubt, swivel your hips' Carmen's, hers was totally refreshing.

N.


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## TTVV (May 17, 2015)

Stunning review of a stunning lieder recital in London last week:-

www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/elina-garanca-wigmore-hall-review-regal


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

amfortas said:


> An enjoyable production. And, of course, *if you're not forever hopelessly in love with Frederica von Stade, you're not fully human. *











Oh yes! Yes! Yes! :clap:


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

TTVV said:


> Stunning review of a stunning lieder recital in London last week:-
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/elina-garanca-wigmore-hall-review-regal


The voice is lush and the singing was impeccable. However, apart from the Duparc, this hasn't gone on my list of stunning Lieder recitals. The best Lieder recital I have heard by one of today's mezzos was given by Semenchuk.

N.


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## TTVV (May 17, 2015)

More sad news:

http://slippedisc.com/2015/12/more-sadness-in-elina-garancas-family/


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## TTVV (May 17, 2015)

I thought she did best yesterday - against stiff competition - in the Met HD of Roberto Devereux. Just wonderful. 

Shame the transmission had accidental noises off during the love duet, which were distracting but not fatal to enjoyment. Going back for an encore screening today, and maybe the track will have been cleaned up.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Very fine singer and a beautiful face for HD. Unlike Flicka, her voice sounds rather generic like a lot of voices today.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Very fine singer and a beautiful face for HD. Unlike Flicka, her voice sounds rather generic like a lot of voices today.


Voice sounds generic? What on earth do you mean by that? It is a voice! Her voice! She sang most beautifully last night and her acting was full of character. What do you guys want? Blood?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Voice sounds generic? What on earth do you mean by that? It is a voice! Her voice! She sang most beautifully last night and her acting was full of character. What do you guys want? Blood?


It is a gorgeous voice, it was sung with feeling, but it is not a voice I would easily pick out on the radio. I can live with that during a live performance or video, but their recordings don't tempt me. Many fine voices such as Joyce D and Susan Graham I would characterize the same way. My favorite singers need only one note to be singled out on the radio. Callas, Verrett, Horne, Sutherland, Tebaldi, Milanov, Nilsson, Varnay, David Hansen, David Daniels, Bjorling, Corelli, Pav, L Warren, Podles. It is something they are born with. Most modern voices sound rather generic to me, but I'm just probably an old man. Same for most modern autotuned pop voices. Give me Sinatra, Streisand, Garland, Sting, Aretha anyday. All very distinctive voices.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is a gorgeous voice, it was sung with feeling, but it is not a voice I would easily pick out on the radio. I can live with that during a live performance or video, but their recordings don't tempt me. Many fine voices such as Joyce D and Susan Graham I would characterize the same way. My favorite singers need only one note to be singled out on the radio. Callas, Verrett, Horne, Sutherland, Tebaldi, Milanov, Nilsson, Varnay, David Hansen, David Daniels, Bjorling, Corelli, Pav, L Warren, Podles. It is something they are born with. Most modern voices sound rather generic to me, but I'm just probably an old man. Same for most modern autotuned pop voices. Give me Sinatra, Streisand, Garland, Sting, Aretha anyday. All very distinctive voices.


I'm with you on this. Distinctiveness, in general, is an element of greatness. What's interesting is that even in the acoustic recording era, when much of a singer's distinctive timbre couldn't be captured (especially with women's voices), the great singers nonetheless sounded so different from one another. I suspect that in those days the generic sounding singers - the ones that nowadays we hear in lead roles in major houses - sang supporting roles or made their careers in provincial theaters.

There's no mistaking Battistini, Amato, Ruffo, Stracciari, Lisitsian, Warren, Gobbi or Merrill - but how many would recognize Kwiecien in a blind test?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes, but what does the fact that a voice is distinctive really tell us in terms of musical value? Maria Callas' voice was very distinctive but that was not what made her great, it was what she did with it.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

What's wrong with her?? Ain't nuttin' wrong with her. There's everything right about her.
Her voice, her looks, her acting, her physique. (Did I miss anything?)
She was nothing short of brilliant as Sara in Roberto Devereux and her Carmen with Alagna was smoking hot and one for the ages.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Yes, but what does the fact that a voice is distinctive really tell us in terms of musical value? Maria Callas' voice was very distinctive but that was not what made her great, it was what she did with it.


It's true that an interesting timbre doesn't automatically bestow artistic distinction, but it shouldn't be surprising that the sound of one's own voice, as an aspect of one's physiology and way of presenting to and interacting with the world, could contribute to the formation of an artistic "personality," a distinctive manner or style. I'll wager that if Callas and Tebaldi had been born with each other's voices they would have developed into different artists - that in fact they would have grown up as different people even under the same circumstances. I've always thought that the peculiar sounds and capacities of Callas' voice made possible her extraordinary versatility and allowed her to express things that a prettier, more even-scaled instrument would not - and that, having that instrument, she had the genius to know what could be done with it. A voice has a "personality" of its own, and if that voice belongs to the right person, the result can be artistic synergy. But even if it belongs to a less imaginative or musicianly singer, its own distinctiveness of timbre can project an interesting "persona."

To return to the topic, I find Garanca's voice very fine and pleasing, but her broadcast _Carmen_ was undistinguished. Either she had no vocal interpretation to offer, or her vocal timbre simply lacks the capacity for characterful coloration. I suspect the latter is a factor.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> What's wrong with her?? Ain't nuttin' wrong with her. There's everything right about her.
> Her voice, her looks, her acting, her physique. (Did I miss anything?)
> She was nothing short of brilliant as Sara in Roberto Devereux and her Carmen with Alagna was smoking hot and one for the ages.


Sometimes people have other feelings Nina, I am with you :tiphat:


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

TTVV said:


> I thought she did best yesterday - against stiff competition - in the Met HD of Roberto Devereux. Just wonderful.
> 
> Shame the transmission had accidental noises off during the love duet, which were distracting but not fatal to enjoyment. Going back for an encore screening today, and maybe the track will have been cleaned up.


Those "noises" you heard were 2 persons backstage arguing who had no idea they could be overheard in the theater.
At first people around me all thought it was a too loud prompter but we soon realized an argument was going on.
I am entertaining seeing the encore too on Wednesday and will watch out for it to see if they messed around with the encore presentation.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

There's no mistaking Battistini, Amato, Ruffo, Stracciari, Lisitsian, Warren, Gobbi or Merrill - but how many would recognize Kwiecien in a blind test?[/QUOTE]

I would like to run into Kwiecien in a dark room and have to feel him up with my hands to determine if it is indeed him. He could sound as generic as he liked.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I would like to run into Kwiecien in a dark room and have to feel him up with my hands to determine if it is indeed him. He could sound as generic as he liked.


If he reads this I'm sure he will avoid dark rooms.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is a gorgeous voice, it was sung with feeling, but it is not a voice I would easily pick out on the radio. I can live with that during a live performance or video, but their recordings don't tempt me. Many fine voices such as Joyce D and Susan Graham I would characterize the same way. My favorite singers need only one note to be singled out on the radio. Callas, Verrett, Horne, Sutherland, Tebaldi, Milanov, Nilsson, Varnay, David Hansen, David Daniels, Bjorling, Corelli, Pav, L Warren, Podles. It is something they are born with. Most modern voices sound rather generic to me, but I'm just probably an old man. Same for most modern autotuned pop voices. Give me Sinatra, Streisand, Garland, Sting, Aretha anyday. All very distinctive voices.


Sign of age, I'm afraid! I remember critics saying exactly the same thing about some of the singers you have listed. I can remember years ago a Marilyn Horne recital being criticised in the Gramophone as 'perfect singing but not distinctive.'


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I'm with you on this. Distinctiveness, in general, is an element of greatness. What's interesting is that even in the acoustic recording era, when much of a singer's distinctive timbre couldn't be captured (especially with women's voices), the great singers nonetheless sounded so different from one another. I suspect that in those days the generic sounding singers - the ones that nowadays we hear in lead roles in major houses - sang supporting roles or made their careers in provincial theaters.
> 
> *There's no mistaking Battistini, Amato, Ruffo, Stracciari, Lisitsian, Warren, Gobbi or Merrill - but how many would recognize Kwiecien in a blind test?*


Are we saying we can really do a blind test? I've heard these on the radio where critics have either not recognised someone or have liked a performance they have previously slated. I love Merrill's voice but I can remember critics saying of him, "there is little to distinguish him from other reliable baritones."


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Sign of age, I'm afraid! I remember critics saying exactly the same thing about some of the singers you have listed. I can remember years ago a Marilyn Horne recital being criticised in the Gramophone as 'perfect singing but not distinctive.'


Purely subjectively, all the singers I mentioned are instantly recognizable to me, and that is all that counts to me. Obviously you experience them very differently. I'd be interested to hear of singers you find instantly recognizable. Perhaps you have none or it is not something that matters to you, David. We all value different things from singers. Elena has a very, very beautiful voice and is a most expressive singer and that was all that mattered during the HD broadcast Sat and I should have left the matter at that and not upset you.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Purely subjectively, all the singers I mentioned are instantly recognizable to me, and that is all that counts to me. Obviously you experience them very differently. I'd be interested to hear of singers you find instantly recognizable. Perhaps you have none or it is not something that matters to you, David. *We all value different things from singers. Elena has a very, very beautiful voice and is a most expressive singer and that was all that mattered during the HD broadcast Sat and I should have left the matter at that and not upset you*.


You haven't upset m,e at all. Why should I be upset by something you say? I am amazed that you can say that she had a very, very beautiful voice and is a most expressive singer , then say her voice is generic. Seems a total contradiction to me!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Are we saying we can really do a blind test? I've heard these on the radio where critics have either not recognised someone or have liked a performance they have previously slated. I love Merrill's voice but I can remember critics saying of him, "there is little to distinguish him from other reliable baritones."


With singers of the past I generally was able to do a blind test. A few years ago I remember a friend of mine putting on several CDs of different female singers one after the other. In quick succession, and only after a few bars, I identified Callas (of course), Sutherland, Schwarzkopf, Janet Baker, Caballe, Horne,De Los Angeles Gheorghiu and Leontyne Price. The only one I didn't get was Lisa Gasteen, which was a bit unfair, as I'd only ever heard her when she won Cardiff Singer of the World a couple of years before I did this blind test.

I know exactly what Seattloperafan is talking about when he says so many of today's voices sound generic. Many of them, like DiDonato for instance, have a beautiful sound, fabulous technique and (now I'm thinking particularly of DiDonato) superb acting skills and stage presence. In fact I'd go out of my way to _see_ DiDonato in just about anything. I'd be hard pressed to recognise her voice in a blind test though, and I feel the same about Garanca and so many others.

So is it something to do with the way singers are trained these days? Or does it have more to do with today's increased globalisation. meaning that national characteristics are increasingly being ironed out. It's happening to orchestral music too? There was a time when Russian, Czech, German and French orchestras, for instance, could be easily identified. I don't think that's the case anymore.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> You haven't upset m,e at all. Why should I be upset by something you say? I am amazed that you can say that she had a very, very beautiful voice and is a most expressive singer , then say her voice is generic. Seems a total contradiction to me!


I'll used different terminology: like Joyce D. Elena's voice is really beautiful, has great technique, is sung with passion but if I heard either on a Met Broadcast on the radio, I would have to look at the cast to see who was singing. With Price, Callas, Sutherland, Bjorling, Corelli et all listed earlier,, I would only need a note to recognize the voice. Joyce and Elena are at the pinnacle of their art form today, but they both sound like a dozen other singers in the way their sound is produced.. You may hear it differently. I find most modern voices have a sameness about them in the color, vibrato, placement etc.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

My sister the opera singer has taught voice for 50 years. People have traveled from all over Germany to study with her.I will send this issue to her and get back to you with her feedback. She had a very, very distinctive sound I can still hear 40 years later.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'll used different terminology: like Joyce D. Elena's voice is really beautiful, has great technique, is sung with passion but if I heard either on a Met Broadcast on the radio, I would have to look at the cast to see who was singing. With Price, Callas, Sutherland, Bjorling, Corelli et all listed earlier,, I would only need a note to recognize the voice. Joyce and Elena are at the pinnacle of their art form today, but they both sound like a dozen other singers in the way their sound is produced.. You may hear it differently. I find most modern voices have a sameness about them in the color, vibrato, placement etc.


You had me, up until the last sentence which I take umbrage with. In defense of recognizable vs. unrecognizable voices of today, here are some to consider and which I can tell blindfolded: Alagna, Radvanovsky, Fleming, Racette, Hvorostovsky, Netrebko, Gheorghiu, Kaufmann, Calleja, Villazon, Domingo, Giordani.
Others whose voices I cannot identify but think are just as wonderful as the above are: Goerke, Haroutunian, DiDonato, Zifchak, Alvarez, Fabiano, Beczala, Hymel, Lee, Polenzani, Kwiecien, Mattei, Garanca.
Meaning that there is much more to singing than just the voice itself.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> You had me, up until the last sentence which I take umbrage with. In defense of recognizable vs. unrecognizable voices of today, here are some to consider and which I can tell blindfolded: Alagna, Radvanovsky, Fleming, Racette, Hvorostovsky, Netrebko, Gheorghiu, Kaufmann, Calleja, Villazon, Domingo, Giordani.
> Others whose voices I cannot identify but think are just as wonderful as the above are: Goerke, Haroutunian, DiDonato, Zifchak, Alvarez, Fabiano, Beczala, Hymel, Lee, Polenzani, Kwiecien, Mattei, Garanca.
> Meaning that there is much more to singing than just the voice itself.


Hmmm... Of the currently active singers you mention, I'm pretty sure I would know Radvanovsky, Fleming, Kaufmann, Calleja, Villazon, and Domingo in a blind test. I'd probably recognize Hvorostovsky, Gheorghiu and Netrebko. Alagna, Racette and Giordani aren't sounding like themselves these days, most of the others have been around for decades, and Domingo is really a relic of an earlier era. Who are the truly individual-sounding singers of today? Are there more than a handful? I'm probably out of touch, so I'd really like to know.

There was no mistaking Bjorling, Tucker, Peerce, Corelli, Di Stefano, Del Monaco, Gedda, Kraus, Simoneau, Bergonzi, Valletti, Domingo, Pavarotti, Wunderlich, Vinay, Vickers, McCracken, King, or Thomas, all leading tenors, and singing well, within a ten-year period between the late '50s and the late '60s, none of them sounding like each other (and I'm sure more could be cited). _These are only the tenors._ Can anyone compile a remotely comparable list of strongly individual tenors active since 2006?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> You had me, up until the last sentence which I take umbrage with. In defense of recognizable vs. unrecognizable voices of today, here are some to consider and which I can tell blindfolded: Alagna, Radvanovsky, Fleming, Racette, Hvorostovsky, Netrebko, Gheorghiu, Kaufmann, Calleja, Villazon, Domingo, Giordani.
> Others whose voices I cannot identify but think are just as wonderful as the above are: Goerke, Haroutunian, DiDonato, Zifchak, Alvarez, Fabiano, Beczala, Hymel, Lee, Polenzani, Kwiecien, Mattei, Garanca.
> Meaning that there is much more to singing than just the voice itself.


You got me there, sister. There are exceptions. Some of the biggest names in opera today are still generic. I will not name names for fear of giving offense;-)JD, SG, EG, to HINT at a few.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> You had me, up until the last sentence which I take umbrage with. In defense of recognizable vs. unrecognizable voices of today, here are some to consider and which I can tell blindfolded: Alagna, Radvanovsky, Fleming, Racette, Hvorostovsky, Netrebko, Gheorghiu, Kaufmann, Calleja, Villazon, Domingo, Giordani.
> Others whose voices I cannot identify but think are just as wonderful as the above are: Goerke, Haroutunian, DiDonato, Zifchak, Alvarez, Fabiano, Beczala, Hymel, Lee, Polenzani, Kwiecien, Mattei, Garanca.
> Meaning that there is much more to singing than just the voice itself.


Great post :tiphat:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I addressed some of these issues to my sister the opera singer who has taught voice for 50 years. This is her reply:
Dear John,

I will try to answer your question about voice sounds. When I first came to Europe, the older singers at the theater had been trained to sing with a straight sound---without vibrato-- and as they got older, they always sang flat ( off key). 

The singers from the eastern countries--- Bulgaria, Hungary, Russia, etc. had huge voices but could only sing loud and later on the voices were shot. They had been trained this way.

The clue is to let the voice develop into its own best individual sound. As a teacher, I concentrated on a clean technique and natural production. I was fortunate to have had good teachers who did just this with me as I was training to be a singer. Gerry Claxton was an excellent teacher for young voices and never hurt any singer he trained.

I think that sound does go by the style of the time but ---- if a singer is lucky---- they find teachers who let the voice develop into its own best sound and style. Every voice is different---with a different range and sound. Few singers are born with the range which is necessary to sing opera roles. Most singers I have taught are what I call "middle voices"--- not too high or low. Finding music for them to sing is difficult and they can never work as opera singers which need a definite range. Some singers try to force the voice into a range which is not theirs so that they can get work but it usually ruins the vocal chords.

Hope this answers some of your questions.
Love,
Kathy


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

amfortas said:


> An enjoyable production. And, of course, if you're not forever hopelessly in love with Frederica von Stade, you're not fully human.


One of the great privileges of my life was to sing in the chorus of _La Cenerentola_ with Frederica von Stade, Rockwell Blake, Claudio Desderi, and Paolo Montarsolo with the Dallas Opera ca. 1979 or 1980, conducted by Nicola Rescigno. I loved her then and love her now for the kind, warm, gracious person and generous singer she is. Oh, did I mention incomparable technique? And Montarsolo's singing and acting as Don Magnifico was a _scuola per gli bassi buffi._ If anyone could have stolen the show from Flicka, it was he, with three juicy arias. But no one could.

Best Regards,

George


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I addressed some of these issues to my sister the opera singer who has taught voice for 50 years. This is her reply:
> Dear John,
> 
> I will try to answer your question about voice sounds. When I first came to Europe, the older singers at the theater had been trained to sing with a straight sound---without vibrato-- and as they got older, they always sang flat ( off key).
> ...


It would be interesting to talk more with your sister about vocal pedagogy. There is no question that methods and ideals have varied over the history of singing, as well as regionally in any given era. There really are such things as national schools of vocal training. Back in the nineteenth century, and into the early twentieth, Italian training was widely considered the best (Wagner thought so, and wanted his singers to sing in "the Italian style," and as late as 1961 Jess Thomas, debuting as Parsifal at Bayreuth, was complimented on his "Italian" singing by no less than Frida Leider). Although modern life has tended to homogenize practically everything and iron out national differences, most of us are still aware, at least through recordings, of the distinctive qualities of voices of French, German, or Slavic origin. I suspect this has more to do with training than with inherent physical differences, but I'd like to know more.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

To the above remarks I would add, with respect to differences in national or regional schools of vocalism, that pedagogical differences must be consequences of differences in sensibility and taste, as reflected in different styles of music. With the homogenization of cultures, it seems that singers specialize a good deal less than formerly in music of their native lands, and we notice that certain species of singers seem rarer, if not extinct. I often wonder, for example, what happened to the great line of German lyric sopranos, as exemplified by Elisabeth Schumann, Lotte Lehmann, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elisabeth Grummer, Irmgard Seefried, Maria Reining, Lisa Della Casa, Anneliese Rothenberger, and Gundula Janowitz (to name only famous singers who come easily to mind). Unmistakable as individuals, they collectively exemplify a distinctive style. Who is representing that style now, with similar authenticity and distinction?

Sorry if I've wandered off topic, but perhaps the matter of vocal distinctiveness is the most important topic raised by the beautiful but slightly anonymous voice of Ms. Garanca.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> To the above remarks I would add, with respect to differences in national or regional schools of vocalism, that pedagogical differences must be consequences of differences in sensibility and taste, as reflected in different styles of music. With the homogenization of cultures, it seems that singers specialize a good deal less than formerly in music of their native lands, and we notice that certain species of singers seem rarer, if not extinct. I often wonder, for example, what happened to the great line of German lyric sopranos, as exemplified by Elisabeth Schumann, Lotte Lehmann, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Elisabeth Grummer, Irmgard Seefried, Maria Reining, Lisa Della Casa, Anneliese Rothenberger, and Gundula Janowitz (to name only famous singers who come easily to mind). Unmistakable as individuals, they collectively exemplify a distinctive style. Who is representing that style now, with similar authenticity and distinction?
> 
> Sorry if I've wandered off topic, but perhaps the matter of vocal distinctiveness is the most important topic raised by the beautiful but slightly anonymous voice of Ms. Garanca.


Very on topic and I agree.There was a similar brilliance and sheen to all of their vocal palatte.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> You haven't upset m,e at all. Why should I be upset by something you say? I am amazed that you can say that she had a very, very beautiful voice and is a most expressive singer , then say her voice is generic. Seems a total contradiction to me!


Actually, I can understand how a voice might be beautiful, expressive, and generic all at the same time. If a singer's voice has no eccentricities -- nothing unusual about it, in the way that Callas' voice had that "bottled" sound in the middle register or Vickers' voice had certain qualities it would be hard to imagine in another tenor -- then that singer might be described as "generic." J.B. Steane called this type of voice "centrist," in fact. It's not a bad thing, in and of itself; I see it as just a way of categorizing voices.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Actually, I can understand how a voice might be beautiful, expressive, and generic all at the same time. If a singer's voice has no eccentricities -- nothing unusual about it, in the way that Callas' voice had that "bottled" sound in the middle register or Vickers' voice had certain qualities it would be hard to imagine in another tenor -- then that singer might be described as "generic." J.B. Steane called this type of voice "centrist," in fact. It's not a bad thing, in and of itself; I see it as just a way of categorizing voices.


Steane puts it very well as usual. Looking at my favourite singers, I note that most of them have something idiosyncratic in their sound, something that makes them instantly recognisable. They all also have something personal to say about the music they are singing. Some time ago I wrote an article about the ten singers who had meant the most to me over the years, singers who had changed my life, in the way that they made me listen to the music afresh or had introduced me to music I hadn't heard or appreciated before. The ten were Callas, Schwarzkopf, Janet Baker, David Daniels, De Los Angeles, Vickers, Maggie Teyte, Gobbi, Wunderlich and Domingo. Of those only Domingo might be said to have a voice one might call centrist, but I chose him because I'd seen so many of his performances in the opera house, where, like DiDonato, he was always much more effective than he ever was on disc.

Whilst I can appreciate and enjoy more "centrist" voices like, say, Tebaldi, they don't "speak" to me in the way those above do.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Steane puts it very well as usual. Looking at my favourite singers, I note that most of them have something idiosyncratic in their sound, something that makes them instantly recognisable. They all also have something personal to say about the music they are singing. Some time ago I wrote an article about the ten singers who had meant the most to me over the years, singers who had changed my life, in the way that they made me listen to the music afresh or had introduced me to music I hadn't heard or appreciated before. The ten were Callas, Schwarzkopf, Janet Baker, David Daniels, De Los Angeles, Vickers, Maggie Teyte, Gobbi, Wunderlich and Domingo. Of those only Domingo might be said to have a voice one might call centrist, but I chose him because I'd seen so many of his performances in the opera house, where, like DiDonato, he was always much more effective than he ever was on disc.
> 
> Whilst I can appreciate and enjoy more "centrist" voices like, say, Tebaldi, they don't "speak" to me in the way those above do.


Great points. Domingo is easy for me to pick out on the radio for some reason, though. I love Janet Baker and David Daniels. DD had one of the best live concerts I have ever heard.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Great points. Domingo is easy for me to pick out on the radio for some reason, though. I love Janet Baker and David Daniels. DD had one of the best live concerts I have ever heard.


I've heard him live on many occasions. In fact I go out of my way to hear him every time he visits these shores. I also have nearly all his recordings. He has tremendous presence and a gift for communication that is rare indeed. He was the first countertenor I ever liked, his voice having a richness and amplitude I'd never expected to hear in a countertenor. Add this to his impeccable legato, his excellent diction and his response to words, and you have a major artist.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Sign of age, I'm afraid! I remember critics saying exactly the same thing about some of the singers you have listed. I can remember years ago a Marilyn Horne recital being criticised in the Gramophone as 'perfect singing but not distinctive.'


Here's something that has struck me: I think the farther away you get, chronologically, from this or that singer the more distinctive his/her voice is apt to sound. As an example, last week I was "watching" (with my eyes closed) a Youtube video of the Met telecast of LE NOZZE DI FIGARO from the late 1990's. The featured singers included Renee Fleming, Cecilia Bartoli, Bryn Terfel, and Dwayne Croft. Now, I distinctly remember that back in the late '90's (when I was in my early 20's and first "into" opera) many opera "old timers" were complaining about how "all singers today sound the same," "opera lacks artists with individuality," etc. But as I listened last week it seemed incredible to me that anyone could ever have called any of the singers in the video "generic" or confused them with other artists, as to my ear they all very clearly had their own distinct sounds. So, in other words, the quotation you cite about Marilyn Horne doesn't surprise me that much.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> *Here's something that has struck me: I think the farther away you get, chronologically, from this or that singer the more distinctive his/her voice is apt to sound.* As an example, last week I was "watching" (with my eyes closed) a Youtube video of the Met telecast of LE NOZZE DI FIGARO from the late 1990's. The featured singers included Renee Fleming, Cecilia Bartoli, Bryn Terfel, and Dwayne Croft. Now, I distinctly remember that back in the late '90's (when I was in my early 20's and first "into" opera) many opera "old timers" were complaining about how "all singers today sound the same," "opera lacks artists with individuality," etc. But as I listened last week it seemed incredible to me that anyone could ever have called any of the singers in the video "generic" or confused them with other artists, as to my ear they all very clearly had their own distinct sounds. So, in other words, the quotation you cite about Marilyn Horne doesn't surprise me that much.


What strikes you has never struck me. Every new singer will be criticized and compared with past singers, and it's possible to come up with a critical remark made by someone to support any position you want to take on any singer, past or present. But in the age of recording, our chronological distance from various singers' careers can't prevent us from comparing their work in the minutest detail (although, of course, not all singers are extensively recorded). If we want a perspective on voices and how their owners apply them in practice, we don't have to rely on anecdotes and random critical remarks made by people whose judgment and tastes we may have no reason to trust. That remark about Horne doesn't surprise me either, but since we don't know what the critic wanted from her and wasn't getting, we can't assume or generalize. If memory serves, Marilyn Horne was not widely regarded as generic. But she made plenty of records, so we can make up our own minds.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Can anyone compile a remotely comparable list of strongly individual tenors active since 2006?


I doubt it would be possible. For every Pertile, Martinelli, etc. unique tenor sound of the past, today I can only pick out Joseph Calleja. Perhaps there are others but I am not aware of them and the reason for that is probably because "that sound" is not in favor today. Why? I don't know. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable about this can give a good reason.
As for sopranos, the same thing holds true. The De los Angeles, Rysanek, Ponselle etc. sound is a lost art today, save for Radvanovsky. 
(Unique as she is, I won't mention CB who drives me crazy with her aspirations.)


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> What strikes you has never struck me. Every new singer will be criticized and compared with past singers, and it's possible to come up with a critical remark made by someone to support any position you want to take on any singer, past or present. But in the age of recording, our chronological distance from various singers' careers can't prevent us from comparing their work in the minutest detail (although, of course, not all singers are extensively recorded). If we want a perspective on voices and how their owners apply them in practice, we don't have to rely on anecdotes and random critical remarks made by people whose judgment and tastes we may have no reason to trust. That remark about Horne doesn't surprise me either, but since we don't know what the critic wanted from her and wasn't getting, we can't assume or generalize. If memory serves, Marilyn Horne was not widely regarded as generic. But she made plenty of records, so we can make up our own minds.


I've read this post several times and am still not sure I understand all of it, or whether it's basically agreeing or disagreeing with my post. But then, I got little sleep last night, so maybe I'm just tired.

I think it goes without saying that, since we now have more than a century of recordings, we're able to make endless and detailed comparisons between singers and hear what this or that one did or didn't do, etc. My post was meant to be more about how we _perceive singers at the present time as opposed to in retrospect._

I assumed that the critical quote regarding Horne was made during her youthful years (i.e. the 1960's). So my "take" on the quote was that, since the critic was brand-new or relatively new to Horne's singing, what _we_ now generally regard as her distinctive sound and style had probably not had that much of a chance to register with _him_. In other words, he was far less familiar with Horne's sound than he was with the sounds of mezzos who preceded her, whom he'd come to know well via recordings...and because of this lack of familiarity he perceived Horne's voice/style as not being as distinctive as those other artists, whom he'd heard many times. (The irony being that those "past mezzos" were probably in their own day described as generic!)

The more often one hears something the better one knows it; my explanation for why singers tend to be more revered in retrospect than they are when young is simply that in the intervening years the public has had a chance to become very familiar with the sounds and styles of those singers; those styles and sounds have become instantly recognizable, even "legendary." We become used to those singers. And so what opera lover who can remember back to the 1990's would _now_ mistake Terfel for Simon Keenlyside, or Fleming for Dawn Upshaw, or Bartoli for Jennifer Larmore? And yet to hear some of the critics in the '90's talk, you would have thought that those singers were, literally, indistinguishable from each other.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I doubt it would be possible. For every Pertile, Martinelli, etc. unique tenor sound of the past, today I can only pick out Joseph Calleja. Perhaps there are others but I am not aware of them and the reason for that is probably because "that sound" is not in favor today. Why? I don't know. Maybe someone who is more knowledgeable about this can give a good reason.
> As for sopranos, the same thing holds true. The De los Angeles, Rysanek, Ponselle etc. sound is a lost art today, save for Radvanovsky.
> (Unique as she is, I won't mention CB who drives me crazy with her aspirations.)


As far as de los Angeles and Rysanek are concerned I could hold up Gheorghiu and Mattila as being just as recognizable. As for Ponselle -- well, I think she was, like Caruso, a "once in a hundred years"-type voice. I agree about Calleja, though I'd also put Vittorio Grigolo up there. And I like that you mentioned Radvanovsky. But actually I think this is all quite subjective, and depends a lot on which singers you personally are most familiar with. For instance, Grigolo's voice is recognizable to _me_ because I've been playing his recordings lately and heard him at the Met last month. He is a first-rate musician/technician with a great deal of vocal control and nuance, and a colorful timbre (silver with dark undertones, as I hear it).

I want to point out that a singer can only sing with the voice he/she was born with. The above post reads, "The de los Angeles...sound is a lost art today." Though I don't think this was the intended meaning, I do sometimes think non-singers get the idea that a voice is "made" or "manufactured" or something like that. This is only true in the sense that the natural voice is _trained or developed_ for a singing career. But it _is_ the singer's natural voice that's being trained, and one couldn't have that voice sound any other way without changing something, physiologically or emotionally, about the singer. So basically, a singer sounds a certain way more because she is a certain person than because she's consciously chosen to sound unique.

I think it's possible, too, that de los Angeles _in her own time_ was not perceived as sufficiently distinctive -- and that years from now Elina Garanca (like de los Angeles today) will be perceived as quite distinctive. As I tried to say in my post above, some things only become apparent in hindsight.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sorry -- post deleted.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I assumed that the critical quote regarding Horne was made during her youthful years (i.e. the 1960's). So my "take" on the quote was that, since the critic was brand-new or relatively new to Horne's singing, what _we_ now generally regard as her distinctive sound and style had probably not had that much of a chance to register with _him_. In other words, he was far less familiar with Horne's sound than he was with the sounds of mezzos who preceded her, whom he'd come to know well via recordings...and because of this lack of familiarity he perceived Horne's voice/style as not being as distinctive as those other artists, whom he'd heard many times. (The irony being that those "past mezzos" were probably in their own day described as generic!)
> 
> *The more often one hears something the better one knows it; my explanation for why singers tend to be more revered in retrospect than they are when young is simply that in the intervening years the public has had a chance to become very familiar with the sounds and styles of those singers; those styles and sounds have become instantly recognizable, even "legendary." We become used to those singers. *And so what opera lover who can remember back to the 1990's would _now_ mistake Terfel for Simon Keenlyside, or Fleming for Dawn Upshaw, or Bartoli for Jennifer Larmore? And yet to hear some of the critics in the '90's talk, you would have thought that those singers were, literally, indistinguishable from each other.


I do agree with your main point. It tends to take a while for anything new - not only singers - to be appreciated and "imprinted" on people's minds. I do have to wonder about some of your examples, though. Fleming and Upshaw? I doubt anyone could find their voices similar, except perhaps someone to whom a soprano is just a soprano! Larmore has a "centrist" kind of sound, but Bartoli is pretty distinctive, at least when she's firing off coloratura like a 33 1/3 record played at 78 rpm.

Qualifying considerations duly noted, I strongly suspect that unusual voices get winnowed out by "the business" today, and even by vocal pedagogues, for reasons I don't fully understand. As I have listened more to Radvanovsky, I've felt increasingly gratified that a singer with her combination of a very distinctive voice and strong dramatic abilities has reached her position of prominence. Even though I'm somewhat ambivalent about her timbre, I'll take her any day over Angela Meade or Kristina Opolais, very good singers who, to my ear, exemplify the "standard" operatic sound which I'd be unable to put a name to blindfolded.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I do agree with your main point. It tends to take a while for anything new - not only singers - to be appreciated and "imprinted" on people's minds. I do have to wonder about some of your examples, though. Fleming and Upshaw? I doubt anyone could find their voices similar, except perhaps someone to whom a soprano is just a soprano! Larmore has a "centrist" kind of sound, but Bartoli is pretty distinctive, at least when she's firing off coloratura like a 33 1/3 record played at 78 rpm.
> 
> Qualifying considerations duly noted, I strongly suspect that unusual voices get winnowed out by "the business" today, and even by vocal pedagogues, for reasons I don't fully understand. As I have listened more to Radvanovsky, I've felt increasingly gratified that a singer with her combination of a very distinctive voice and strong dramatic abilities has reached her position of prominence. Even though I'm somewhat ambivalent about her timbre, I'll take her any day over Angela Meade or Kristina Opolais, very good singers who, to my ear, exemplify the "standard" operatic sound which I'd be unable to put a name to blindfolded.


I was actually casting around for the name of another '90's soprano who sang Fleming's repertoire, and I couldn't come up with one...Cheryl Studer, maybe, or Carol Vaness? I did once read a complaint from a critic, writing in the late '80's or early '90's, who said that Upshaw, Barbara Bonney, and Kathleen Battle all sounded too similar to each other (whereas to my ear they don't sound alike at all). Instead of "Terfel and Keenlyside" I probably should have said "Terfel and Furlanetto."

Larmore happens to be one of the last mezzos I'd call centrist; I've always thought her voice has very recognizable qualities. Joyce Di Donato's voice is centrist (but lovely). Your point about unusual voices being rejected or "standardized" -- I wouldn't know if it's true, but my brother is a violinist and thinks that in recent years teachers of instruments have become too concerned with cultivating and perfecting "tone" (in place of meaning). It might be the same with voice teachers, because on Youtube there's an interview with Di Donato in which she says something about young singing students being worried mainly about "making sound."


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Barelytenor said:


> One of the great privileges of my life was to sing in the chorus of _La Cenerentola_ with Frederica von Stade, Rockwell Blake, Claudio Desderi, and Paolo Montarsolo with the Dallas Opera ca. 1979 or 1980, conducted by Nicola Rescigno. I loved her then and love her now for the kind, warm, gracious person and generous singer she is. Oh, did I mention incomparable technique? And Montarsolo's singing and acting as Don Magnifico was a _scuola per gli bassi buffi._ If anyone could have stolen the show from Flicka, it was he, with three juicy arias. But no one could.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> George


Sorry I missed this. Frederica had a very unique tone. So beautiful, too. She was a very adept coloratura singer, which was not her speciality.


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