# Best and Worst Recordings: Barbirolli



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I have been expecting someone to do this but as nobody has...

While there are many also-rans amongst Barbirolli's output, I can't really think of any outright duds. Perhaps the Brahms/VPO symphony cycle? Otello?

As to the best, that is also hard as there a lot that I think highly of, many of which are from live recordings...

Bruckner - #8 Halle - BBC/Live
Elgar - Cello Concerto - LSO with Jacqueline DuPre
Mahler - #1 - Halle - from 1957, i.e. before the Mahler boom
Mahler - #3 - Halle - a BBC broadcast. Ignore if you want technical perfection but you will be missing a lot.
Sibelius - #2 - Royal Philharmonic - Amazing.
Vaughan Williams - Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis - Sinfonia of London - Another great one
Vaughan Williams - #6 - Bavarian RSO - Live
Vaughan Williams - #8 - Halle - The Mercury recording made shortly after the premier


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Best: Mahler 5th, plus his live Mahler 6th. I consider him one of the true Mahlerians in his interpretations and understanding of the composer, though he was sometimes criticized for his slower tempos and not always following the details of the score. He played the middle two movements of the 6th in the right order in his live recording. But EMI reverses them in his studio recording because of the infamous Radz edition. (The 1963 Erwin Ratz edition published the score with the movements ordered to Mahler's original conception rather than the 2nd and 3rd published edition by Mahler himself. Radz was criticised for his lack of documentary evidence.)


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Best: Elgar Symphony No.1 and RVW London Symphony on Pye, both from the mid-1950s.
Worst: Yes, maybe the Brahms VPO cycle, and critics didn't much like his Sibelius Complete Symphony EMI set.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Agree, Becca, there are no real outright duds in his output. I particularly enjoy his Mahler but the one recording I love best of all of his is his Dvorak 8th (from his recordings of symphonoes 7-9). Its one of the best. For worst, I'd agree that his Brahms cycle is warm but sounds tired and lacks drive.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Lots of Mahler not mentioned yet - like the live recordings (I seem to know two) of the 2nd and the 9th from Berlin - and his Brahms piano concertos with the young Barenboim (real chemistry between the two). His Strauss Metamorphosen (I love listening to it alongside the Klemperer recording!) and his Elgar: two recordings (one live, one a coupling for the Tallis Fantasia already mentioned) of the Introduction and Allegro and also the Serenade. And much more of his Elgar probably. I second his Sibelius symphonies as well as the exceptional live 2nd and the Bruckner 8 mentioned by Becca.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

David Phillips said:


> Best: Elgar Symphony No.1 and RVW London Symphony on Pye, both from the mid-1950s.
> Worst: Yes, maybe the Brahms VPO cycle, and critics didn't much like his Sibelius Complete Symphony EMI set.


Really, why not? I enjoyed very much what I heard of it (3rd and 5th symphonies I believe). Too romantic?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Best: Sibelius 2 from Reader's Digest, lately on Chesky.
Worst: Franck D minor symphony on Supraphon.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Cannot think of a worst one, everything I've got with him at the helm is excellent, although there may be a couple of Sibelius recordings in the EMI box that are a bit indifferent.....

.... definitely NOT the Brahms cycle, which I enjoy very much...!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

There is a Mahler 4th with the BBCSO done on tour in Prague. It is an interesting performance but the orchestra wasn't at its best that evening.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Merl said:


> Agree, Becca, there are no real outright duds in his output. I particularly enjoy his Mahler but the one recording I love best of all of his is his Dvorak 8th (from his recordings of symphonoes 7-9). Its one of the best. For worst, I'd agree that his Brahms cycle is warm but sounds tired and lacks drive.
> 
> View attachment 122316


I have a love affair with that recording of the 8th going back to the first time I heard it on LP in my college library 25 years ago


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Oh boy, I didn't start a Barbirolli thread for the same reason I didn't start one for Furtwangler. Where do I start with listing all my favorites and how do I come up with a dud?

I'll take a stab at a top 5, beginning with my favorite Mahler symphony recording. It is with a noisy audience and some ragged ensemble, but unearths the depths of the symphony like no other IMO. Next to this, even an excellent recording like Karajan '82 merely approximates the emotions of this great work. I also still prefer the studio 6th to the live tape from days earlier. Barbirolli takes a slow first movement tempo but he sells it so well I don't care. Still one of the most jaw-dropping recordings I have ever heard.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I only omit the Elgar concerto with Du Pre because of space and the amount of credit shared with Du Pre, but it must be said Barbirolli had an extremely distinguished recording history as an accompanist going back to the 30s. Listen for example to his Brahms piano concerto collaboration with Barenboim.

But the most unforgettable is his Rach 3rd with Horowitz, the greatest concerto collaboration of which I know. Yes, the recording quality is awful, but we are so privileged just to hear the performance at all that by the end you don't care. You just want to join the guy in the audience exclaiming "Bravo!!!" as soon as the last chord sounds.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

On a slightly different tangent, Barbirolli also conducted perhaps the greatest _Madama Butterfly_.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Those I find most interesting are, among others,

- Delius, Bax Tintagel etc/EMI
- Chopin Cti 1 + 2 Rubinstein (early mono EMI)
- Bruckner 8/Halle O

Sadly I don't own the mentioned Horowitz stuff but I'll be getting it some day.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While there are so-so recordings of the Bruckner 3rd, 7th & 9th with the Halle taken from off-the-air tapes, I keep reading about the existence of some Bruckner with the Berlin Philharmonic which RIAS broadcast however I haven't been able to locate copies. Does anyone know if they have ever become available?

On the subject of radio broadcasts, here are a few others which are available and worth investigating
Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique - SWR Symphony
Mahler - 2nd - Stuttgart Radio (IMO preferable to the Berlin recording)
Mahler - 6th - New Philharmonia/Proms (noted above but I happen to prefer the 1st movement in this performance)
Sibelius - 5th - Halle/Proms

There are also some NYPO and Boston Symphony broadcasts from the 60s


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> While there are so-so recordings of the Bruckner 3rd, 7th & 9th with the Halle taken from off-the-air tapes, I keep reading about the existence of some Bruckner with the Berlin Philharmonic which RIAS broadcast however I haven't been able to locate copies. Does anyone know if they have ever become available?
> 
> On the subject of radio broadcasts, here are a few others which are available and worth investigating
> Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique - SWR Symphony
> ...


Barbirolli, John - Bruckner Symphony 9
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
17/9/66: Treasure of the Earth CD TOE 2080


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Becca said:


> Mahler - 2nd - Stuttgart Radio (IMO preferable to the Berlin recording)


THE great Mahler 2nd IMO, slightly edging the various Klemperers.

Some more great ones:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Worthy of a full mention, I feel: the Elgar Cello Concerto with du Pre: 



. It was a great collaboration and Barbirolli had great hopes for her. I prefer it over her recording with Barenboim.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I'll take a stab at a top 5, beginning with my favorite Mahler symphony recording. It is with a noisy audience and some ragged ensemble, but unearths the depths of the symphony like no other IMO. Next to this, even an excellent recording like Karajan '82 merely approximates the emotions of this great work.


I didn't mention the Mahler 9th as I am influenced by [faded?] memories of seeing him conduct it.

As to the Berlin Bruckner 9th mentioned above ... $50?? 

Regarding the Dvorak 7th & 8th, they were recorded by the Mercury team of Cozart & Fine.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> I didn't mention the Mahler 9th as I am influenced by [faded?] memories of seeing him conduct it.
> 
> As to the Berlin Bruckner 9th mentioned above ... $50??
> 
> Regarding the Dvorak 7th & 8th, they were recorded by the Mercury team of Cozart & Fine.


Becca, Highdeftapetransfers are doing the Berlin 9th for a significantly lower price. Check this link out.

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/copy-of-mahler-symphony-no-9-berliner-philharmoniker-sir-john-barbirolli-conducting-pure-dsd


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Merl said:


> Becca, Highdeftapetransfers are doing the Berlin 9th for a significantly lower price. Check this link out.
> 
> https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/copy-of-mahler-symphony-no-9-berliner-philharmoniker-sir-john-barbirolli-conducting-pure-dsd


That's the Mahler 9th not the Bruckner.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Becca said:


> That's the Mahler 9th not the Bruckner.


Didn't look properly. Sorry Becca. I did find it earlier. Will look again.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I'm feeling a bit chuffed having just ordered this set for under a fiver (used) including p&p.
I can't wait to hear the Mahler 2nd.

View attachment 122370
View attachment 122371


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

WOW didn't know HDTT made a transfer of Barbirolli's EMI Mahler 9. The EMI CD and their hires release are full of clicks. I wonder if HDTT would have gotten rid of them.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Malx said:


> I'm feeling a bit chuffed having just ordered this set for under a fiver (used) including p&p.
> I can't wait to hear the Mahler 2nd.
> 
> View attachment 122370
> View attachment 122371


I got that when it was first released, it is more than worth it for the Mahler alone.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I enjoy Barbirolli's Elgar Symphonies 1 and 2 and his Mahler 3 from BBC was the first recording that helped me understand what was going on in that music -- that it was a cantata surrounded by a symphony. I also enjoyed some of his Vaughan Williams.

However, just about everything else I heard from him, including his famous "Eroica" the Penguin Guide gave a rosette and his Brahms symphonies with Vienna Philharmonic seemed ponderous. I also thought that about all other Mahler and Bruckner I heard from him.

I am not familiar with his Sibelius which has been hailed by critics everywhere.

I would never say he was a bad conductor or made bad recordings, however. I think he is a conductor for people that like things taken slowly with huge moments.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Is anyone familiar with this recording from 1969?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I liked his Dvorak 7th with the Halle but this 7th with the RCO on Testament is a really good one (one of my favourites). Tbh all of Barbirolli's Dvorak was lovely but this 7th is special.









BTW, I agree with a previous poster about his Beethoven. Languid to say the least.

Edit wow Becca, talk about great minds!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

larold said:


> I enjoy Barbirolli's Elgar Symphonies 1 and 2 and his Mahler 3 from BBC was the first recording that helped me understand what was going on in that music -- that it was a cantata surrounded by a symphony. I also enjoyed some of his Vaughan Williams.
> 
> However, just about everything else I heard from him, including his famous "Eroica" the Penguin Guide gave a rosette and his Brahms symphonies with Vienna Philharmonic seemed ponderous. I also thought that about all other Mahler and Bruckner I heard from him.
> 
> ...




Yes me. 
I love Glorious John.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Merl said:


> BTW, I agree with a previous poster about his Beethoven. Languid to say the least.


Sounds as if you were going to teach a course on Beethoven interpretation it would go like this:

"Fast equals good. Slow equals bad. Class dismissed."

There's a bit more to music interpretation, isn't there?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The irony is that much of Barbirolli's Mahler & Bruckner is faster than the average!!


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I could care less how fast or slow a recording is. There is so much more to it than just the basic tempo.

This is the list of 8 Eroicas I consider to be the most essential out of the dozens I have heard, and they run the gamut from very fast (Toscanini, Kleiber) to very slow (Barbirolli, Klemperer)

Furtwängler (1944) 
Furtwängler (12/8/1952) 
Klemperer (1957) 
Klemperer (1959) 
Toscanini (1939) 
Barbirolli (1967)
Karajan (1984) 
Kleiber (1950)


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Barbirolli is my go-to Elgarian. The symphonies, yes, but above all the awe-inspiring Dream of Gerontius he recorded with Dame Janet Baker.










The two also did a wonderful Sea Pictures, which is paired with Du Pre's Cello Concerto on an album.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I forgot this one........lovely









And, btw, 'languid' doesnt usually mean slow (especially when applied to a musical performance) and its not always used in a derogatory way.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> Lots of Mahler not mentioned yet - like the live recordings (I seem to know two) of the 2nd and the 9th from Berlin - and his Brahms piano concertos with the young Barenboim (real chemistry between the two). His Strauss Metamorphosen (I love listening to it alongside the Klemperer recording!) and his Elgar: two recordings (one live, one a coupling for the Tallis Fantasia already mentioned) of the Introduction and Allegro and also the Serenade. And much more of his Elgar probably. I second his Sibelius symphonies as well as the exceptional live 2nd and the Bruckner 8 mentioned by Becca.


Ha! This is where I got the idea to listen to Barbirolli's Metamorphosen. Thanks!


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Best: Mahler 5th, plus his live Mahler 6th. I consider him one of the true Mahlerians in his interpretations and understanding of the composer, though he was sometimes criticized for his slower tempos and not always following the details of the score. He played the middle two movements of the 6th in the right order in his live recording. But EMI reverses them in his studio recording because of the infamous Radz edition. (The 1963 Erwin Ratz edition published the score with the movements ordered to Mahler's original conception rather than the 2nd and 3rd published edition by Mahler himself. Radz was criticised for his lack of documentary evidence.)


I'd place his Mahler in the dud catagory


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Triplets said:


> I'd place his Mahler in the dud catagory


Based on ......?


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