# What defines the piano quintet as a genre?



## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

I thought of this question when I was reading a thread in the chamber music section. It may not be answerable :

What separates piano quintet from piano quartet (and piano trio) and makes it a distinct genre? Is it just the number of instruments? (Is it really that simple ?)

This might be a question of the relations between content and form. Knowing absolutely nothing about these genres and their literature, I am sort of perplexed by the solemnness involved when people asks “what is the greatest piano quintet ever written?” Why not just “the greatest chamber music that plays with a piano?” It is easy to see that adding a second violin to a small ensemble isn't going to be as trivial rolleyes as increasing double woodwinds to triple woodwinds for an orchestral work. Does the addition of this 2nd violin fundamentally changes how the work is written, not just finding some more work for the additional player?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think it's just the way people think about things. Ever-smaller boxes and so forth.

But composers are just as fussy, because a piano quintet is (to them) a different beast from a piano quartet. It's not just a matter of doubling or orchestration. More voices usually mean more moving parts, and this makes the musical logic more complex.

As an example, Spohr wrote a number of "double quartets," which were pretty much in a quartet's four parts but with eight players. Mendelssohn took about the same group of instruments and wrote an Octet, which was a considerably more complicated exercise, especially given his taste for counterpoint at the time -- he was 16!


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

A mini piano concerto written for one instrument per part.  Actually, that was quite often the case.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Seems like you're over-thinking things a little. A piano quintet is a simply a standard string quartet with piano (very occasionally the four strings will be violin, viola, cello, bass - as in Dvořák's Op 77). It shouldn't be, as HarpsichordConcerto suggests, a 'mini piano concerto' (although some might seem that way). There are also quintets for four WIND instruments and piano (eg Beethoven's Op 16 and Mozart's K 452), but these are usually referred to as 'piano-wind quintets' or 'quintets for wind and piano/piano and wind'.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Piano quintet (or quarter, or trio) is merely a description of the instruments involved in a piece of music (like string trio, quartet, quintet, etc.). It has no special character other than it's written for a piano and four strings and represernts only the composer's decision to write a piece for that combination of instruments. They are relatively rare (maybe half a dozen or so in the 'standard" repertoire), and someone who discovers one and wants to hear others will ask the question you referred to. You're overthinking this.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Delicious Manager said:


> Seems like you're over-thinking things a little. A piano quintet is a simply a standard string quartet with piano (very occasionally the four strings will be violin, viola, cello, bass - as in Dvořák's Op 77). It shouldn't be, as HarpsichordConcerto suggests, a 'mini piano concerto' (although some might seem that way). There are also quintets for four WIND instruments and piano (eg Beethoven's Op 16 and Mozart's K 452), but these are usually referred to as 'piano-wind quintets' or 'quintets for wind and piano/piano and wind'.


Ok, but - no piano in Dvorak's Op. 77.


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

writing for a piano trio, a piano quartet and a piano quintet requires different approaches, because the combination of sounds are different. Mediocre composers approach these genres with a warped mentality and thus their works are justly forgotten. If you listen to Brahms' trios, piano quartets and piano quintet, you will see the unique sound combinations coming through.

A piano trio tends to be more flexible and adaptable. It can get wild with massive emphasis on bravura. Check out Tchaikovsky's Piano Trio. A piano quartet is more constrained. Because it only has 1 violin, the sound tends to be darker and richer, akin to a string sextet, because the cello and viola and the base of the piano tends to dominate the first violin and the treble of the piano.
The piano quintet tends to be lush, majestic and richer and much more formal because of the full potentiality of all 4 string instruments working in unison. And no its not a piano concerto. The piano quintet functions as 1 instrument. Its not a mere string quartet added to a piano.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Ok, but - no piano in Dvorak's Op. 77.


Yes, that was rather dumb of me! It's 2 violins, viola, cello and bass. I was thinking of works like Schubert's _Trout_ Quintet.

Forgive!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

In any game it is partially satisfying to know, at least, the number of players 

[add: and yes, in a way, it really is almost 'that simple.]

The composer too, has a reflex to write differently for ensembles made up of different forces, and of course that includes the numbers of the individual players / instruments which they have at their disposal.

With the possibility of thicker texture(s), body of sound with or in balance with the piano, more independent horizontal activity, chords with more pitch members, the piano quintet is a different beast with a greater mass of the homogenous string sound in ratio to the piano. All that comes under consideration when a work is conceived of and written for that specific ensemble.

The 'mini piano concerto' as someone called it, is somewhat accurate -- whether it is a piano trio, quartet or quintet -- the piano part often has a work load similar to that in a piano concerto: in the chamber works, the piano can be used in a manner of its practical and traditional roles -- accompaniment (supportive background) / concertante - more constantly in the fabric of the piece, supportive but the role still much more 'in front' than accompaniment / proto-Antagonist, i.e. up-front soloist. _[add: more generally: Fore / Middle / or Background]_

There are actual concerti and sonatas for chamber ensembles, titled as such because they are written in those form(ats)... 
Manuel de Falla ~ Concerto for flute, oboe, clarinet, violin and 'cello. 
Elliott Carter ~ Sonata for flute, oboe, 'cello and Harpsichord.

Terminology: 'piano trio / quartet, quintet, etc.' are understood as piano + strings. Similarly, Mozart's 'Clarinet quintet' is understood as clarinet with string quartet.
Works with winds are traditionally named, for, example, "quintet for piano and winds."


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Music for 5 pianos :3


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Music for 5 pianos :3


Morton Feldman ~ Five Pianos













Enjoy.


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## xuantu (Jul 23, 2009)

First I saw this:



BurningDesire said:


> Music for 5 pianos :3


I knew it was meant to be a joke, and then...



PetrB said:


> Morton Feldman ~ Five Pianos
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't see this coming. :lol: It's really made my day!


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

xuantu said:


> First I saw this:
> 
> I knew it was meant to be a joke, and then...
> 
> I didn't see this coming. :lol: It's really made my day!


well it was half-joke, I personally think if its called a "piano quintet", it should be 5 pianos XD


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> well it was half-joke, I personally think if its called a "piano quintet", it should be 5 pianos XD


Does that mean a barber shop quartet should be four barber shops?


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