# Beethoven and Hitler



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

What would Ludwig have made of Hitler the Third Reich? Would he reacted similarly like he did with Napoleon? He would go along with Nazism but as soon as Poland was invaded he would have been angered beyond belief. I personally think Beethoven would have seen through Hitler long before he became Chancellor, so no doubt he would have fled to the USA or faced diabolical consequences for speaking out. I can't imagine the Nazis being as understanding of Beethoven's temper as Lobkowitz was. Or would the Nazis care, they seemed to prefer Wagner and Bruckner after all?


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

Beethoven was for Schiller's Ode to Joy and the universal brotherhood of man and humanity coming together.

I'll let you figure out if he would like a dictator and mass murderer.

G'day :tiphat:


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

beetzart said:


> What would Ludwig have made of Hitler the Third Reich? Would he reacted similarly like he did with Napoleon?


That story is probably apocryphal.

The real question is, would Beethoven have reacted like he did to Wellington, Metternich, and the Tsar, because they were the Hitlers in that war. My guess is, probably yes - you didn't have to be a convinced Nazi to be a Cultural Asset for the people who were running your country - vide Richard Strauss, Furtwängler.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> Beethoven was for Schiller's Ode to Joy and the universal brotherhood of man and humanity coming together.
> 
> I'll let you figure out if he would like a dictator and mass murderer.
> 
> G'day :tiphat:


Well the dictator and mass murderer in question liked _performances_ of Schiller's "Ode To Joy" (which ain't all that humane - "und wers nie gegönnt der stelle weihnend sich aus diesem Bund"; "Ihr stürtzt nieder, Millionen") as set by Beethoven just fine. So I'll let y'all figure _that_ out.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Another plea to anyone who starts one of these counterfactual historical threads: Please define what you mean by whomever you are transporting through time, in this case "Beethoven." Do you mean (1) someone with Beethoven's genes born in the 20thc, (2) a Beethoven born and educated in the late 18thc and transported to the 20thc, or (3) someone with Beethoven's genes raised in a setting that is somehow analogous to the original Beethoven's in terms of education, family background, etc. If you don't specify these things, no one will have any idea what is actually being asked.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I am sure that Beethoven would have been horrified by the Nazis even before they came to power. The Nazis' misuse of the music of German/Austrian composers like Beethoven, Bruckner and Wagner is well documented but the composers themselves cannot be held responsible for this as Hitler came to power decades after their deaths. With reference to Beethoven specifically, I can't believe that the leaders of the Third Reich present at the 1942 Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker performance of his 9th symphony wouldn't have felt at least some irony when the "All men will become brothers" part in the final movement was played...


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> With reference to Beethoven specifically, I can't believe that the leaders of the Third Reich present at the 1942 Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker performance of his 9th symphony wouldn't have felt at least some irony when the "All men will become brothers" part in the final movement was played...


I'm completely sure they felt no irony whatsoever.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Another plea to anyone who starts one of these counterfactual historical threads: Please define what you mean by whomever you are transporting through time, in this case "Beethoven." Do you mean (1) someone with Beethoven's genes born in the 20thc, (2) a Beethoven born and educated in the late 18thc and transported to the 20thc, or (3) someone with Beethoven's genes raised in a setting that is somehow analogous to the original Beethoven's in terms of education, family background, etc. If you don't specify these things, no one will have any idea what is actually being asked.


I wonder just what the point of these counterfactual historical threads is.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

chill782002 said:


> With reference to Beethoven specifically, I can't believe that the leaders of the Third Reich present at the 1942 Furtwangler / Berliner Philharmoniker performance of his 9th symphony wouldn't have felt at least some irony when the "All men will become brothers" part in the final movement was played...


I am sure they understood very well even at that time, that idealistic dreams of Beethoven or Schiller and the immediate reality are entirely different things. There is a time for enjoying the first, but never losing sight of the second.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I wonder just what the point of these counterfactual historical threads is.


Seriously?! It was just something that popped into my head. With regards to Beethoven I am transporting him through time to Germany/Austria say 1920-1940. I apologise if I have hurt your eyes by you actually clicking on a thread you have no interest in and wasting your time in making that known. I am deeply upset to have caused you such inconvenience.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Please refrain from making comments about other members and their posts, unless these are unmistakably positive. Some posts have been removed.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Maybe the next one should be "George Gerschwin and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki"? Or "Leonard Bernstein and the inner-city gangs of Detroit"? They are just as much connected to each other.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I'm afraid that I don't see this thread generating a constructive discussion. Thread closed in the meantime.


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