# Is Beethoven worthy of another film?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I enjoy anything with Ludwig in especially the three main films made about him. Although, is there room out there for one more blockbusting film about the Legend. Maybe a three parter covering the three main eras of his life. Of course you would want it factually tight but with room for a bit of dramatisation. Imagine a 9 hour series about the great man; or is that too much? 

So if another Beethoven film was to be made which actor would you like to see play Ludwig? I'm thinking Tom Hardy could do a good job from when Beethoven moves to Vienna to 1827. Mainly because he has just recently done Taboo that was based in 1814 London. He is good at playing those gritty roles. 

Just a thought.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

The films they made about him were mediocre and didn't really catch on like Amadeus. Then again, their music notwithstanding, Mozart was a more cinematic character. His music (with exceptions) is mostly happy, and you can tell it was written by a cheerful life-loving individual. Beethoven seemed to hate everything and everyone, and that doesn't make for a good movie.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

George C Scott...except he b dead.


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## Schumanniac (Dec 11, 2016)

Beethoven is worthy of any praise and attention. Sadly, though, he was rather private and spent so much time alone, all we have to base oppinions on is a few letters, but mostly the observations of others only few of which is likely correct, and the only thing you'll ever see in others is what they want to show you, and what you want to see. I imagine the difficulty of making a movie of a solitary deaf man who communicated trough logbooks. His music was greatly fascinating, but his life wasnt in particular. The mind was genius, but i doubt any truly understood him during his life nor that he ever fully revealed himself, so difficult to portray as well.

I'd love an accurate portrayal of him, creating a sense of connected to this sweet behemoth, i just dont think its possible. Its either gonna be dramatized to make it entertaining or accurate but dull. He seemed a forced introspective, living his life trough thought and music.

You want a 9 hour biography? Listen to his symphonies, my friend, and be spared the disappointment 

P.S. It should clearly be Gary Oldman again. He'll become whatever Ludwig you want him to be.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Meryl Streep could play him, she's good at accents, and in the interest of diversity, why should it be a man who plays him? Sexists!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Francis Poulenc said:


> The films they made about him were mediocre and *didn't really catch on like Amadeus. *Then again, their music notwithstanding, Mozart was a more cinematic character. His music (with exceptions) is mostly happy, and you can tell it was written by a cheerful life-loving individual. Beethoven seemed to hate everything and everyone, and that doesn't make for a good movie.


The problem with Amadeus was that it is almost totally fictional in its portrayal of Mozart. The only thing in it that is authentic is the music which is what people went for. Beethoven can be a very interesting character as the movie Eroica showed. The film "Immortal Beloved" had a good shot of portraying him but the actual story was fictional.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

In fairness to Amadeus, I think of it as being more a study of envy, and in that way, it succeeds on a cosmic scale. But yeah, it's a great work of fiction, one I love dearly...


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Fictitous films about composers seldom work.(Okay, "Eroica" was pretty good . . . but that was just as much the sound track as the plot.) I think a really good and far ranging documentary about Beethoven and his music would just as good. (I've been composing a script of scenes for one for years.  ) To me, he's probably the most interesting of composers.


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

Mahler was the composer with the most dramatic life. A well-made film on his life could truly be quite something. Ken Russell made one but unfortunately it wasn't very good.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I didn't think Immortal Beloved was much more than mediocre and I didn't think Oldman was a very good Ludwig - though otherwise I am a big Oldman fan. I don't think Ludwig's life necessarily lends itself to a tight narrative even if he was an interesting guy. I feel the same way about Brahms and Mahler - not enough drama in their lives unless you're extraordinarily melodramatic. I saw Ken Russell's and it was alright, I just don't think there's a lot there. Schumann, however, I think would be great for an updated treatment (I haven't seen Song of Love but reception seems mixed).

Amadeus is a good movie but the portrayal of Mozart as almost an idiot savant seems a little too hyperbolic - even if he was likely more facile and frivolous than a good many other men that have walked the earth. Still, it made for a good movie so it's hard to argue with results so long as you don't take it as gospel.

Best of all to me in terms of a biography that lends itself to dramatic form would be Wagner, and not just because of how controversial he remains. I've yet to see the Richard Burton miniseries but I've been meaning to for a while now.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

The question I think we should be asking: Is another film worthy of Beethoven? Can a film possibly encapsulate his genius? I think not. It's best that we know him through his music.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

DavidA said:


> The problem with Amadeus was that it is almost totally fictional in its portrayal of Mozart.


That's only a problem if you're going into it expecting a biography! :lol:

It's actually part of the reason why Amadeus is one of the few successful movies "about" composers.



bz3 said:


> Best of all to me in terms of a biography that lends itself to dramatic form would be Wagner, and not just because of how controversial he remains. I've yet to see the Richard Burton miniseries but I've been meaning to for a while now.


It's pretty awful actually, I wouldn't make it a priority.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

But the problem of profound deafness wouldn't be needed until the last part of the trilogy. The first part could document his awful childhood with respect to his father. This could be offset against his much more timid mother and end roughly about the time he lands in Vienna for the 2nd time, for good. The 2nd part can start with him composing his early trios and sonatas and his amazing skills as a pianist then the time when he realises he is going deaf. This will be the heroic part of his life and will fade into the struggle with Karl in the 3rd part. The last part can be heartbreaking as he loses his hearing yet composes his final sonatas, the 9th sym and the last string quartets. Ending with this disease ridden man that has changed the world more then he could ever have realised. I don't think there are many other biographies involving composers that are as mind blowing as Beethoven's. I would end the trilogy with the final note that was believed to have been composed by him, that of the new last movement of the 13th SQ. I think with the correct sensitive scriptwriters there is some mileage in Beethoven.


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## KThreeSixFour (Sep 16, 2011)

Copying Beethoven is for me the best one. Although it has the same problem as "Amadeus" (ridiculous liberties with facts and with period sensibilities), it succeeds in showing a passion for the music of two of his greatest works: the Grosse Fuge and the Ninth Symphony. Ed Harris was shockingly good in his role as Beethoven.

It's kind of a "chick flick" in which the protagonist is a female fighting for recognition in a man's world. It's an opportunity to get your wife into an appreciation of classical music


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KThreeSixFour said:


> Copying Beethoven is for me the best one. Although it has the same problem as "Amadeus" (ridiculous liberties with facts and with period sensibilities), it succeeds in showing a passion for the music of two of his greatest works: the Grosse Fuge and the Ninth Symphony. Ed Harris was shockingly good in his role as Beethoven.
> 
> It's kind of a "chick flick" in which the protagonist is a female fighting for recognition in a man's world. It's an opportunity to get your wife into an appreciation of classical music


Won my vote for worst film / best soundtrack!


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## Francis Poulenc (Nov 6, 2016)

KThreeSixFour said:


> Copying Beethoven is for me the best one. Although it has the same problem as "Amadeus" (ridiculous liberties with facts and with period sensibilities), it succeeds in showing a passion for the music of two of his greatest works: the Grosse Fuge and the Ninth Symphony. Ed Harris was shockingly good in his role as Beethoven.
> 
> It's kind of a "chick flick" in which the protagonist is a female fighting for recognition in a man's world. It's an opportunity to get your wife into an appreciation of classical music


You got the wrong wife.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Antiquarian said:


> The question I think we should be asking: Is another film worthy of Beethoven? Can a film possibly encapsulate his genius? I think not. It's best that we know him through his music.


Let's face it, he was a pretty awful man despite his high ideals! His musical genius is another matter.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A movie about Beethoven:

He’s raised in Bonn, where he endures the cruelty of other children who mostly listen to rap and chant “La la Ludwig!”

Arriving in Vienna, Haydn makes him clean chamber pots for five years before teaching him a note of music.

Fleeing the city to escape mobs outraged by his Eroica Symphony.

Writing the Choral Symphony in prison, locked up for his political views.

Dying while shaking his fist at the heavens and cursing his medical plan.

Maybe Beethoven would have a chance with that one.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Let's face it: Beethoven's life wasn't all that exciting to make a movie that wouldn't be in need of making up a lot of nonsense. I am not a fan of movies about artistic figures or even other famous people as they tend to be boring and thin on facts.

I think what we need is to have someone discover a "secret" symphony Ludwig wrote but didn't tell anyone about it.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

How about a plot something like the Shakespeare/Edward de Vere controversy: As Beethoven became more deaf, he was not able to compose almost anything and his '3rd period' works were composed by a woman!


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Francis Poulenc said:


> The films they made about him were mediocre and didn't really catch on like Amadeus. Then again, their music notwithstanding, Mozart was a more cinematic character. His music (with exceptions) is mostly happy, and you can tell it was written by a cheerful life-loving individual. Beethoven seemed to hate everything and everyone, and that doesn't make for a good movie.


Immortal Beloved is the best so far. Not close as compare to Amadeus. Not sure if there should be another one unless coming from a very different angle of description of his character.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

beetzart said:


> I enjoy anything with Ludwig in especially the three main films made about him. Although, is there room out there for one more blockbusting film about the Legend. Maybe a three parter covering the three main eras of his life. Of course you would want it factually tight but with room for a bit of dramatisation. Imagine a 9 hour series about the great man; or is that too much?
> 
> So if another Beethoven film was to be made which actor would you like to see play Ludwig? I'm thinking Tom Hardy could do a good job from when Beethoven moves to Vienna to 1827. Mainly because he has just recently done Taboo that was based in 1814 London. He is good at playing those gritty roles.
> 
> Just a thought.


I think it is not for us to say.....Hollywood has to decide and if this is marketable at all.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why would anybody make a film about a composer maybe 1% of the population admires?

That would be economic suicide.

It's all about supply and demand.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> I think it is not for us to say.....Hollywood has to decide and if this is marketable at all.


I don't think Hollywood will loses one night sleep over comments on a public forum, but you are absolutely right.


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## cimirro (Sep 6, 2016)

shhh don't give ideas to them, I'm afraid the next movie will be called Yeethoven and it will mention his youth in USA...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> Let's face it: Beethoven's life wasn't all that exciting to make a movie that wouldn't be in need of making up a lot of nonsense. I am not a fan of movies about artistic figures or even other famous people as they tend to be boring and thin on facts.


I would think Beethoven is actually the one bloke whose life and times were so fascinating it would make for a great film, without the blasted scriptwriters having to invent anything (like they did in all the Beethoven films thus far).

Why was _Amadeus_ so successful then? Because it was actually not a biopic of Mozart. In my view, a film about some historical figure should either be as accurate as we can make it, or make some other point than pretending to be a biopic. _Amadeus_ was really more a study of genius, mediocrity and jealousy than a biopic, and whether or not one agrees with the points the film made, they were made with scintillating drama and wit. And then there was the far less known but delightful little film _Impromptu_, which lampooned the over-the-top romanticism of the 19th century via a very fictionalized look at the lives of Chopin, Liszt and Delacroix.

A film like _Immortal Beloved_ ended up being neither accurate biopic nor a film making some point; a tragic waste of Mr. Oldman's considerable talents. Few people's lives are as minutely documented as Beethoven; there is really no need to resort to endless confabulation when making a biopic about the man.

Of course, as others pointed out, Beethoven was not the most pleasant of characters, so a truly accurate film might put off some people. But I cannot imagine that it would be as boring as, say, a biopic of Brahms.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Why would anybody make a film about a composer maybe 1% of the population admires?
> 
> That would be economic suicide.
> 
> It's all about supply and demand.


I tend to agree with you. Many people love Beethoven but sadly a film about Bieber would be infinitely more popular. Although Beethoven is the best known classical musician/composer ever. He is our standard bearer against which everything else is measured. Of all the composer flicks I have seen Eroica is my favourite as it is a BBC production and BBC usually stands for high quality then The Music Lovers. Tchaikovsky had a relatively interesting life although Russell had to dramatise it heavily, which is why I think Beethoven had the most interesting life, a life that doesn't need to be rewritten. Everything is there already, I mean a composer going deaf, you couldn't write that and make it believable.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Also, it is known that Beethoven was a nasty piece of work as has been said, but he could flip and be your best friend in an instant. I read a book a while back that suggested Beethoven may have had bipolar. I don't have an opinion either way on this as it is too difficult to posthumously diagnose a mental illness for someone who died 190 years ago. I suppose you would have to look at this composing patterns. Bipolar 1 can have manic episodes that last months. I would tend to think that if he was wildly manic he maybe wouldn't be able to concentrate entirely on the details of composing like orchestration and counterpoint. If he had hypomania then he may have been able to have coped better, but then you have to find the times when he was depressed. Too difficult to pinpoint these details possibly?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

In answer to the main question, hasn't the man suffered enough already?


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Kieran said:


> Meryl Streep could play him, she's good at accents, and in the interest of diversity, why should it be a man who plays him? Sexists!


This is so incredibly ridiculous.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

*Beethoven's Hair* I found a fascinating read, so perhaps there could be a good film made about researchers discovering something amazing about Beethoven's life. It could be fictional but plausible with enough flashback re-enactments and musical gems to make it interesting. It could have a sub-plot about the researcher's life, a la _French Lieutenant's Woman_. I have no idea who'd play Beethoven, but following Kieran's lead, would suggest Meryl Streep for the whiz researcher.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

cimirro said:


> shhh don't give ideas to them, I'm afraid the next movie will be called Yeethoven and it will mention his youth in USA...


Might I suggest "Duke, Where's my Carriage?"


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'd rather see one made about Hector Berlioz, to be honest - he experienced enough in his life to make it a viable project plus the post-Napoleonic Paris of Charles X, Louis Philippe and then Louis-Napoléon Bonaparte was a cultural and political hothouse which would provide a suitably dramatic backdrop.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

"Worthy" and "Economically feasible" are two different concepts.

Why would any studio deliberately try to lose money on a film?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> "Worthy" and "Economically feasible" are two different concepts.
> 
> Why would any studio deliberately try to lose money on a film?


As I understand it, publishers lose money on most of the books they publish; perhaps it's time for film studios to follow this lead. 

I'm not sure such a film needs to be a financial flop. Most genuinely good films make at least a bit of money.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> As I understand it, publishers lose money on most of the books they publish; perhaps it's time for film studios to follow this lead.
> 
> I'm not sure such a film needs to be a financial flop. Most genuinely good films make at least a bit of money.


Beauty & the Beast and Transformers are economically feasible. "Beethoven's Immortal Beloved" is not.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I don't think Hollywood will loses one night sleep over comments on a public forum, but you are absolutely right.


I would see Hollywood make a film between the 2 great rivalry(if they were) violin markers - Stradivari and Guarnieri. It would be very interesting.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> I would see Hollywood make a film between the 2 great rivalry(if they were) violin markers - Stradivari and Guarnieri. It would be very interesting.


Now, that would be fantastic. :tiphat:


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

I think brianvds has it about right--in "Amadeus" the main character is Salieri, not Mozart. It's more of a psychological drama, and the question of how mediocrity functions in the shadow of genius could have been used by Shaffer with other characters as well. It's just that with Mozart you get some great music in the play as part of the deal And why historical facts could be kind of ignored in the process. 

Personally, I have doubts in this day and age of any classical music standalone movies, biopics or otherwise, making it in today's world without the prerequisite car chases and aliens or zombies. Or even as a sidestory--anybody ever see Deanna Durbin in "100 Men and a Girl", with Stokowski? :tiphat:

OTOH, I had heard somewhere in recent years about a biopic involving Vivaldi? Was that true?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

Per Bill above, how to work in a car falling off a cliff and exploding at the bottom in a Beethoven film?

I thought Immortal Beloved was excellent, and in its own way as good as Amadeus. I don't think the current American movie-going generation is much interested in another composer film. It would probably have to be a European production, where the public continues to have much more interest in classical music.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Beauty & the Beast and Transformers are economically feasible. "Beethoven's Immortal Beloved" is not.


From the Wikipedia article on _Immortal Beloved_:

"The movie debuted strongly and was a modest success, generating $9,914,409 in a domestic-only release."

This sort of film is seldom a blockbuster, but it doesn't have to be in order for it to be worth making. Most artsy movies are not hugely financially successful, but lots of them get made anyway.



Bill H. said:


> I think brianvds has it about right--in "Amadeus" the main character is Salieri, not Mozart. It's more of a psychological drama, and the question of how mediocrity functions in the shadow of genius could have been used by Shaffer with other characters as well. It's just that with Mozart you get some great music in the play as part of the deal And why historical facts could be kind of ignored in the process.


The same bloke that made _Amadeus_ (whose name now escapes me) made another film titled _Goya's Ghosts._ This time round, it was about such issues as the use and misuse of art, and both the power and the limitations of art. And once again, most critics mistook it for a biopic of Goya. It wasn't as good as _Amadeus_, but was well worth watching, in my opinion.



> Personally, I have doubts in this day and age of any classical music standalone movies, biopics or otherwise, making it in today's world without the prerequisite car chases and aliens or zombies.


There is a very lively and rock solid audience for well made "art" films. Such films don't make a fortune, but most good ones are enough of a financial success to make it well worth making them.



> OTOH, I had heard somewhere in recent years about a biopic involving Vivaldi? Was that true?


There's little enough known about him that he makes the perfect subject for a creative film maker - nice music, and you can endlessly speculate about such things as a crisis of faith and a secret lover. I shudder at the very thought. 

Of course, one could go completely overboard in humourous fashion - say, a Beethoven film in which, in his free time, he is a masked crime fighter or vampire hunter or something. With Karl as his sidekick, perhaps...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Bill H. said:


> OTOH, I had heard somewhere in recent years about a biopic involving Vivaldi? Was that true?


Not a success. Some critics complained it was just the same scene, over and over.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Instead of another film about Beethoven's life, I would like to see more documentaries/lecture series that focus on his music. Something along the lines of Schiff's excellent lectures on Beethoven's piano sonatas, and Michael Tilson Thomas's DVD "Keeping Score--Beethoven." I realize that there might not be a huge audience for this sort of thing, but I'm sure that many of us on TC would be interested!


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Not a success. Some critics complained it was just the same scene, over and over.


Sounds like Stravinsky's complaint about Vivaldi's music.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Anyone ever watch A Song to Remember (1945) on the (fictionlised) life of Chopin, nominated for 6 Oscars? They even had Liszt in the movie. Rated 94% on Rotten Tomatoes...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Anyone ever watch A Song to Remember (1945) on the (fictionlised) life of Chopin, nominated for 6 Oscars? They even had Liszt in the movie. Rated 94% on Rotten Tomatoes...


Now that I want to see.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> Anyone ever watch A Song to Remember (1945) on the (fictionlised) life of Chopin, nominated for 6 Oscars? They even had Liszt in the movie. Rated 94% on Rotten Tomatoes...


Well, then it is definitely on my Liszt...


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

amadeus works because of the tension between a bitter old man's war with god, his admiration for genius, envy of it and desire to destroy it. add to that mozart's often dazzling portrayal as a man who likes a drink, frolic with girls though married, coarse humour and god like talents for music 

I dont see how a story about beethoven could be interesting by comparison


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

stomanek said:


> amadeus works because of the tension between a bitter old man's war with god, his admiration for genius, envy of it and desire to destroy it. add to that mozart's often dazzling portrayal as a man who likes a drink, frolic with girls though married, coarse humour and god like talents for music
> 
> I dont see how a story about beethoven could be interesting by comparison


Well, that would only be limited by the imagination of the script writer - after all, _Amadeus_ was not a biopic, and I would guess one could use Beethoven as a symbol to make some or other point too. But I would prefer to see a straightforward (but more or less accurate) biopic: his real life was quite interesting enough.

It doesn't necessarily have to be minutely accurate. I'm thinking here about, for example, the German film _Downfall_, which chronicled Hitler's last days. It took some liberties with the exact facts here and there, but in all cases there was good reason to do so, and it was done without once sacrificing the authenticity of the whole thing. Resulted in one of the best films ever. Now they just need to do one about our mutual friend Ludwig...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

stomanek said:


> amadeus works because of the tension between a bitter old man's war with god, his admiration for genius, envy of it and desire to destroy it. add to that mozart's often dazzling portrayal as a man who likes a drink, frolic with girls though married, coarse humour and god like talents for music
> 
> I dont see how a story about beethoven could be interesting by comparison


It could be if the writer took as much liberty with the facts as Shaeffer did with Amadeus. I must confess when I saw the National Theatre do Amadeus I was just irritated beyond measure with the portrayal of Mozart. Perhaps it is the historian in me but I must confess that to anyone who knows anything about Mozart's life the portrayal of him is really dumb. It seems to assume that what we find it in his letters - the coarse humour and bad language - was how he spoke in normal life. Now I'm sure we all know people who might enjoy smutty talk in private with friends but know how to behave in public. From what history tells us it does appear that Beethoven's public behaviour was likely to have been far more offensive than Mozart's.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I still think a Beethoven biopic film could be done not just to please Ludwigites but people that have never really listened to his music. He may have been rather irascible but there was a lot of heartache in his life. Take that scene in Eroica where the Countess won't marry him because she will lose her title and her children, all because Beethoven is a commoner; that seemed to happen to Beethoven a lot. The deafness, the late quartets, the ninth, Carl, his drinking, his trouble with money, his relationships with contemporaries/performers (Bridgetower)/publishers/aristocracy...a good script writer has plenty to play with there without dramatising too much at all really.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Just an afterthought. What about a Beethoven biopic but seen through the eyes of Schubert, or Schubert as narrator making it clear he was born 27 years after Beethoven? Or just the lives of the two composers and how they are similar but different at the same time. I think Schubert's life is as heartbreaking as Beethoven's.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

brianvds said:


> From the Wikipedia article on _Immortal Beloved_:
> 
> "The movie debuted strongly and was a modest success, generating $9,914,409 in a domestic-only release."
> 
> ...





Richard8655 said:


> I thought Immortal Beloved was excellent, and in its own way as good as Amadeus. I don't think the current American movie-going generation is much interested in another composer film. It would probably have to be a European production, where the public continues to have much more interest in classical music.


A couple of other modern, artsy, so-called composer biopics come to mind--French, of course. I have a copy of "Le Roi Danse," which supposedly explores the relationship between Jean-Baptiste Lully and Louis XIV. Of course, it also is a vehicle for showing some of Lully's operas and ballet music, which Le Roi Soleil was also fond of dancing to. The same director IIRC also did the more famous "Tous les matins du Monde," which looked via flashbacks (as did "Le Roi") at the relationship between Marin Marais and the mysterious viole da gamba composer Mr. Sainte-Colombe.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Pugg said:


> Now that I want to see.


Be forewarned, there are Hollywood-infused elements of a passionate love affair coming into the way of his musical goals and a rivalry with Chopin's mentor. You have to stretch things a lot to get people to watch biopics.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Meryl Streep could play him, she's good at accents, and in the interest of diversity, why should it be a man who plays him? Sexists!


Yeah but her rants against President Donald Trump may be considered anachronistic for a composer living in 1803.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Yeah but her rants against President Donald Trump may be considered anachronistic for a composer living in 1803.


Well, she's obviously overrated, but so is Luigi, so she gets him. As the prez might say, "it's gonna be wonderful, wonderful!" 
:tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kieran said:


> Well, she's obviously overrated, but so is Luigi, so she gets him. As the prez might say, "it's gonna be wonderful, wonderful!"
> :tiphat:


"It's gonna be BIG! BELIEVE ME!!!" ("faintly" heard in the background: LOCK HER UP!!! LOCK HER UP!!! )

She also needs to ditch the red Louis Vuitton bag if she really wants to do a convincing portrayal.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

hpowders said:


> "It's gonna be BIG! BELIEVE ME!!!" ("faintly" heard in the background: LOCK HER UP!!! LOCK HER UP!!! )


"This film will fail, it'll fail, no, it'll fail bigly. I'm in favour of any woman, no, I am, but this Beethoven broad, she's overrated, overrated, but it's gonna be wonderful!"


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I'm beginning to think a biopic of Beethoven with orange hair might be an idea...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> Be forewarned, there are Hollywood-infused elements of a passionate love affair coming into the way of his musical goals and a rivalry with Chopin's mentor. You have to stretch things a lot to get people to watch biopics.


These days with computers all is possible.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Pugg said:


> These days with computers all is possible.


There is, of course, the common saying that "to err is human, but to really foul things up takes a computer"


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I may start a Beethoven/Schubert double biopic with Schubert listening to Beethoven's 14th String Quartet and silently weeping. Maybe he could be narrator or have Czerny as narrator because he played an important role in the transition from classical to romantic music. I would portray both composers as having their heads just brimming with music as if they were hallucinations and sound as real as if played on an instrument. I wonder.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Whether he is worthy of it or whether it should be done are two different questions. We know that Hollywood would have to lie about Beethoven's life to make the story more interesting to a broad audience. I'd hate to see Beethoven's life slandered the way Salieri and Mozart's lives were in _Amadeus_. They say that any publicity is good publicity and maybe it helped Mozart's legacy, but it's not like Salieri's music became that much better known through the movie. I could see Hollywood writing a script where WFE Bach kills Beethoven to try to prevent Beethoven from supplanting the Bach family from the top of the music reputation list or something ridiculous like that.

Besides, Hollywood's idea of a Beethoven movie is to make a movie about a St. Bernard. I just looked it up on Wikipedia. Who knew that are 8 of those silly Beethoven movies? Are they going to stop with Beethoven's 9th? I didn't even remember that there was a TV series version too. It's probably a good thing that the later Beethoven movies have not become popular or else young people would more associate the Beethoven name with a dog than with the musician.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

If Mark Zuckerberg's life was interesting enough to make for an entertaining film, so was Beethoven's. Ditto for Steve Jobs. Lost in Translation is about two characters sitting at tables, talking, fightin' a little bit, making up, and then parting ways, over the course of a few days. Beethoven's hearing loss alone is more interesting than anything that happened in the lives of those characters/people.

Amadeus isn't that eventful either if you think about it, and would still have been good had they subtracted some of the more exaggerated events in it. As long as they don't lay on the cheese inventing some lame speculation about the immortal beloved, I'm all for it.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Pugg said:


> These days with computers all is possible.


Within the foreseeable future, CGI technique will get to the point where they can dispense with actors altogether. Then at least the guy playing Beethoven will look exactly like Beethoven.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> If Mark Zuckerberg's life was interesting enough to make for an entertaining film, so was Beethoven's. Ditto for Steve Jobs.


You could be right that a wide audience would find an accurate story of Beethoven to be interesting. It's hard to say. It seems that even Hollywood itself does not understand which stories will sell or not based on the number of high profile box office busts that we've seen.

I'm not sure if the Zuckerberg and Jobs movies were accurate stories or punched up stories. From what I know though, most Hollywood stories "based on a true story" are not very accurate at all. I admit that I'm not a movie expert though.



> Amadeus isn't that eventful either if you think about it, and would still have been good had they subtracted some of the more exaggerated events in it. As long as they don't lay on the cheese inventing some lame speculation about the immortal beloved, I'm all for it.


Maybe, but it could be said that the comedic aspect of _Amadeus_ added to it's wide appeal. While there were comedic aspects of Mozart's life that were accurate in the movie, a lot of them weren't. The whole Salieri thing was bogus though as far as I know. Maybe it's just me, but for Hollywood to ruin the man's reputation is shameful.

EDIT: Of course, Hollywood didn't start the lies with _Amadeus_. I believe the story was initially written as a play. Still, they continued the slandering.


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## Norma Skock (Mar 18, 2017)

The answer is probably no.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Klassik said:


> Whether he is worthy of it or whether it should be done are two different questions. We know that Hollywood would have to lie about Beethoven's life to make the story more interesting to a broad audience. I'd hate to see Beethoven's life slandered the way Salieri and Mozart's lives were in _Amadeus_. They say that any publicity is good publicity and maybe it helped Mozart's legacy, *but it's not like Salieri's music became that much better known through the movie.* I could see Hollywood writing a script where WFE Bach kills Beethoven to try to prevent Beethoven from supplanting the Bach family from the top of the music reputation list or something ridiculous like that.
> 
> Besides, Hollywood's idea of a Beethoven movie is to make a movie about a St. Bernard. I just looked it up on Wikipedia. Who knew that are 8 of those silly Beethoven movies? Are they going to stop with Beethoven's 9th? I didn't even remember that there was a TV series version too. It's probably a good thing that the later Beethoven movies have not become popular or else young people would more associate the Beethoven name with a dog than with the musician.


I actually remember reading an article that said, Salieri music recordings quadrupled after the movies release in 1984. In the interest of full disclosure I never would have purchased a Salieri record if it hadn't been for that movie, not that this is a proud admission.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> If Mark Zuckerberg's life was interesting enough to make for an entertaining film, so was Beethoven's. Ditto for Steve Jobs. Lost in Translation is about two characters sitting at tables, talking, fightin' a little bit, making up, and then parting ways, over the course of a few days. Beethoven's hearing loss alone is more interesting than anything that happened in the lives of those characters/people.
> 
> Amadeus isn't that eventful either if you think about it, and would still have been good had they subtracted some of the more exaggerated events in it. As long as they don't lay on the cheese inventing some lame speculation about the immortal beloved, I'm all for it.


These two examples you gave are incredible rarities, especially "The Social Network" (the circumstances of this movie coming together are like the perfect storm). First of all both films were written by one of the greatest (objectively :devil: ) screen writers working today Aaron Sorkin so that's a huge coup because if he turned his pen to writing about NASCAR it would most likely still be enthralling.

Second and most importantly both of these movies were directed by directors who are at the top of their field, Danny Boyle (Steve Jobs) & David Fincher (who is the absolute man). These guys talent are a rarity

So I guess if a movie about Beethoven were to come out Written by Sorkin, and Directed by Fincher than yeah they would be as good as The Social Network or Steve Jobs but more likely you'd get something like a "Copying Beethoven" or whatever..


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think the last decade that they could make a movie that could do Beethoven justice was the 1950s. We've dumbed down too much since then.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

regenmusic said:


> I think the last decade that they could make a movie that could do Beethoven justice was the 1950s. We've dumbed down too much since then.


I won't dispute the ratio has fallen of good films to bad, but to say good films if not better films have not been created since the 50's is a bit obtuse. Some of mankind's greatest achievements in film can be found in every subsequent decade, building on the lessons left behind from the great movies of the past.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Fugue Meister said:


> I actually remember reading an article that said, Salieri music recordings quadrupled after the movies release in 1984. In the interest of full disclosure I never would have purchased a Salieri record if it hadn't been for that movie, not that this is a proud admission.


Yup - only reason why Salieri is known at all today is thanks to the movie. It neatly illustrates the principle that in the arts, there ain't no such thing as bad publicity.


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

Fugue Meister said:


> I actually remember reading an article that said, Salieri music recordings quadrupled after the movies release in 1984. In the interest of full disclosure I never would have purchased a Salieri record if it hadn't been for that movie, not that this is a proud admission.





brianvds said:


> Yup - only reason why Salieri is known at all today is thanks to the movie. It neatly illustrates the principle that in the arts, there ain't no such thing as bad publicity.


I wouldn't be surprised if there was a spike in interest in Salieri after the movie came out, but his music is about as well known today (or 5 weeks after the movie came out) as it was before the movie. It's not like he has many new CDs today. Maybe that says something about his music, but having a reputation as a being a mediocre musician and a murderer of a popular and liked figure probably didn't help grow his fan club any even if that reputation isn't deserved. Regardless, dragging a person's reputation through the mud like that just to make a profitable movie strikes me as being a particularly cruel thing to do. Yeah, he died some ~150 years before the movie, but I'm sure people would be really mad if they made Mozart or Beethoven into a murderer for a movie.

I actually also own a Salieri CD. Would I have brought it if it wasn't for _Amadeus_? I don't know, it's hard to say. I've brought CDs from other obscure classical era composers who I knew little about so maybe so (I think I brought a Vanhal CD the same day). The CD is a Haenssler CD with Salieri's overtures and such conducted by Thomas Fey. The music is rather entertaining FWIW.


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## Fugue Meister (Jul 5, 2014)

Klassik said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if there was a spike in interest in Salieri after the movie came out, but his music is about as well known today (or 5 weeks after the movie came out) as it was before the movie. It's not like he has many new CDs today. Maybe that says something about his music, but having a reputation as a being a mediocre musician and a murderer of a popular and liked figure probably didn't help grow his fan club any even if that reputation isn't deserved. Regardless, dragging a person's reputation through the mud like that just to make a profitable movie strikes me as being a particularly cruel thing to do. Yeah, he died some ~150 years before the movie, but *I'm sure people would be really mad if they made Mozart or Beethoven into a murderer for a movie.*
> 
> I actually also own a Salieri CD. Would I have brought it if it wasn't for _Amadeus_? I don't know, it's hard to say. I've brought CDs from other obscure classical era composers who I knew little about so maybe so (I think I brought a Vanhal CD the same day). The CD is a Haenssler CD with Salieri's overtures and such conducted by Thomas Fey. The music is rather entertaining FWIW.


In a world where they can release a film about Abraham Lincoln being a vampire hunter, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Klassik said:


> ...but I'm sure people would be really mad if they made Mozart or Beethoven into a murderer for a movie.


I think a movie exposing Beethoven as "the mad slasher of Vienna" would solve an age-old mystery, add a valuable dimension to the great composer's character, and make a boatload of money. I'd buy a ticket!

Court: Herr Beethoven, did you not hear the victim begging for mercy?
Beethoven: I didn't hear nothin'.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

There isn't enough pure respect these days for history's greats coming from Hollywood. They seem to want to, or only know how to, trivialize, great people. There are some exceptions. You can't respect something you don't fully understand, or if you don't take part in the background of such a person enough. Beethoven created on a different level than most of Hollywood after the 1950s.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> There isn't enough pure respect these days for history's greats coming from Hollywood. They seem to want to, or only know how to, trivialize, great people. There are some exceptions. You can't respect something you don't fully understand, or if you don't take part in the background of such a person enough. Beethoven created on a different level than most of Hollywood after the 1950s.


Even Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Who have been reworked to fit into the shape of comic book heroes. There is no respect for anything but easy money.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

regenmusic said:


> There isn't enough pure respect these days for history's greats coming from Hollywood. They seem to want to, or only know how to, trivialize, great people. There are some exceptions. You can't respect something you don't fully understand, or if you don't take part in the background of such a person enough. Beethoven created on a different level than most of Hollywood after the 1950s.


Yes, because who cares about respect when there's money to be made off popular historical figures? And Beethoven is a composer that everyone knows about but doesn't bother with the details.


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