# Do you consider the saw to be a musical instrument?



## Edward Elgar

Failing to get a majority on my last thread of this nature, I'm going to see if you will be seduced by this unconventional yet beautiful instrument!

Here are some youtube clips to help you decide.


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## Elgarian

I believe the saw to be at the cutting edge of contemporary music.


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## Weston

I consider anything that makes sound to be a potential musical instrument -- that includes everything from the earliest drums and reed flutes to radio signals from a probe flying through Saturn's rings.

Saws too.


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## nickgray

Yeah, but I think of it as a "special effect" instrument - I wouldn't want to hear it solo, but a couple bars in some orchestral work? Sure, why not, it certainly will add something to it if used correctly.


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## Lisztfreak

Sounds a lot like some electronic instrument like _ondes Martenot_. So I voted yes!


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## Edmond-Dantes

Though I definitely think that deserves the title of "Musical Instrument," I DESPISE the thing. ^^; It's just a bit "Silly" sounding, and I like the depth of emotion in classical music.


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## Elgarian

I imagine, though, that someone playing a saw would really be able to get his teeth into the music.


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## JTech82

Is the saw an instrument? Well if you consider a screwdriver, drill, wrench, crowbar, hammer, etc. instruments, then yeah I guess you would, but I would have say you're OUT OF YOUR MIND, because these are tools NOT instruments.


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## Edmond-Dantes

I believe he is referring to a Musical Saw. :-D


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## JTech82

Edmond-Dantes said:


> I believe he is referring to a Musical Saw. :-D


Is a "musical saw" used in one of Strauss' or Mahler's composition? When do you ever hear a composer call for a "saw" in one of his compositions?


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## Edmond-Dantes

Absolutely never.  That's why I'll stick with music from the Romantic and Baroque Era's...


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## JTech82

Edmond-Dantes said:


> Absolutely never.


Yeah and you won't either, because it's not an instrument.


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## World Violist

I don't see anything wrong with the saw being a musical instrument.

And I don't want to see a response saying I'm "wrong" either, or anything like that. To each his own. I may not have to like its sound, but hey, it makes music. What's "wrong" with that?


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## Tapkaara

Saws have been used in some types of folk music. Not an orchestral instrument, perhaps, but it has been used.


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## LvB

JTech82 said:


> Is a "musical saw" used in one of Strauss' or Mahler's composition? When do you ever hear a composer call for a "saw" in one of his compositions?


Khatchaturian calls for it (under the term flexatone, though the sound he is looking for derives from the folk equivalent, which amounts to a musical saw) in the slow movement of his piano concerto. In many performances and recordings it is replaced by a glockenspiel, but there is really no equivalent to the sound Khatchaturian wanted except a musical saw. The effect is striking and beautiful, and once heard is not easily forgotten.

While it is true that Mahler never called for a saw, he did use a hammer in the sixth symphony....


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## Weston

LvB said:


> While it is true that Mahler never called for a saw, he did use a hammer in the sixth symphony....


And didn't Wagner use a bunch of anvils for Das Rheingold? Or am I misremembering that?


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## Elgarian

I suppose a see-saw is a saw that's been tuned to play in the key of C?


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## Chi_townPhilly

When I noticed this thread, I thought of the car-horns scored into Gershwin's _An American in Paris_... but then I observed that *Weston* made a great catch by calling attention to this...


Weston said:


> And didn't Wagner use a bunch of anvils for Das Rheingold? Or am I misremembering that?


This from John Culshaw, producer & studio wiz for the Wagner _Ring Cycle_ (Solti/Vienna):


> It was something of a comic exercise to round up eighteen anvils of the sizes exactly detailed by Wagner, but I am glad we resisted the temptation to improve on the composer...


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## Gneiss

In the world of percussion I suppose anything goes...

However even when played by "experts" it sounds like me failing to play the violin  So it's a no from me.....


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## Conor71

Sure, I think the Saw can be used as a musical instrument - glad the Khatchaturian Piano Concerto slow movement was mentioned already as thats a great example


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## Lang

Well, odd instruments that come to mind are the siren in Hindemith's Kammermusik no. 1, the rifles and vacuum cleaners in Arnold's A Grand, Grand Overture and the optional aeroplane engine in Satie's Parade.

If they are musical instruments, then I guess the saw is as well.


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## Elgarian

Lang said:


> Well, odd instruments that come to mind are the siren in Hindemith's Kammermusik no. 1, the rifles and vacuum cleaners in Arnold's A Grand, Grand Overture and the optional aeroplane engine in Satie's Parade.
> 
> If they are musical instruments, then I guess the saw is as well.


Not forgetting the cannons in the 1812 Overture.


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## nefigah

I'm here to provide a smiley face in response to Elgarian's cutting remarks:


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## Enkhbat

i read precious posts of members! ROFL

As for me:

One side, saw is an instrument





, This is Tan Dun's "Internet Symphony". *0.58-1.07* is saw melody.

On the other hand, i agree with Jtech and Edmon Dantes. 
May be, it's *hybrid of instrument and tool*


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Edward Elgar said:


> Failing to get a majority on my last thread of this nature, I'm going to see if you will be seduced by this unconventional yet beautiful instrument!
> 
> Here are some youtube clips to help you decide.


I believe there's no room for decision here. The woman is using that saw to produce music. The tool is in this case a musical instrument, and that is out of dispute. Comments could be made, however, on how _right _is to use unconventional instruments.



> And didn't Wagner use a bunch of anvils for Das Rheingold? Or am I misremembering that?


He did. A similar thought had Verdi when setting music to the words:

_All'opra! all'opra! 
Dagli, martella. 
Chi del gitano 
i giorni abbella? 
La zingarella!_

the famous "Anvil chorus".



> This is Tan Dun's "Internet Symphony". 0.58-1.07 is saw melody.


He uses car breaks in the same work. In _Water Passions_ he resorts to huge bowls with water.
In the _Variations for a door and a sigh_, Pierre Henry uses just that, a door and a sigh.

They are strange musical instruments. Like the toy piano.


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## Herzeleide

Edward Elgar said:


> Failing to get a majority on my last thread of this nature, I'm going to see if you will be seduced by this unconventional yet beautiful instrument!
> 
> Here are some youtube clips to help you decide.


EE, we've been through questions like this before.

Definition of an instrument:

Something which makes a sound and is used to make music (in the saw's case, percussive effects).


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## LvB

I think the real question here is, why _wouldn't_ a saw [or any other sound producing object] count as a musical instrument? Presumably the composer who calls for one (at least of they're doing so in a serious manner) has a purpose in sound for doing so (that is, it's a sound decision  ), a purpose which no other sound will meet. We may argue over whether the music thus produced is worth the effort, but I cannot see any _a priori_ objection to the use of any particular thing in a composition. As Rimsky-Korsakov, who presumably knew a thing or two about instrumentation, commented, "In the orchestra there is no such thing as ugly quality of tone." What matters is the relevance of the instruments required to the sound intended.

Several posters have already mentioned the anvils in _Das Rheingold_. Consider the alternative: glockenspiels? I think not. The sound Wagner wants, and gets from his anvils, is massive and terrifying, pure rhythmic energy stripped of harmony and melody; it superbly signifies the brutal world Alberich has forced his slaves to live in.

What matters is context. The saw is not inherently a musical instrument, but neither are the French horn and violin (one can imagine a species of aliens who communicate entirely by tactile sensation, and whose music is essentially a superb chiropractic massage session, discovering a violin and having no conception of its use). Under the right circumstances _anything_ can be used in a musical manner. Consider, for example, the _Kitchen Symphony_, Op. 445, by Henri Kling (1842-1918): he calls for piano, trumpet, funnel trumpet, wine glass, bottle, saucepan, fire irons, milk jug, and tin covers. The result is an absolutely charming work the whole family can play; it never fails to cheer me up when I listen to it. Is it profound? Of course not, nor was it meant to be. Is it music? I can see no other word for it.


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## Herzeleide

LvB said:


> I think the real question here is, why _wouldn't_ a saw [or any other sound producing object] count as a musical instrument?


If it does not fulfil the criteria I posted above.


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## Elgarian

nefigah said:


> I'm here to provide a smiley face in response to Elgarian's cutting remarks:


Smiley face gratefully accepted.

I suppose a bandsaw is intended for use in an orchestra?


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## Rondo

Various percussion instruments are used in Beethoven's work, _Wellington's Victory_, to simulate cannons and gunfire.


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## World Violist

Herzeleide said:


> EE, we've been through questions like this before.
> 
> Definition of an instrument:
> 
> Something which makes a sound and is used to make music (in the saw's case, percussive effects).


Percussive effects? Um... I would advise carefully watching one of the above videos once more. It's quite obvious that the musical saw is among the least percussive instruments out there; it's a melodic instrument with less percussive effects than literally any effect in the standard orchestra.


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## Edmond-Dantes

Actually, you are both right, as you can use both a bow and a hammer with it. It is an Idiophone and can be used as a "Friction Idiophone" or a "Percussion Idiophone."


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## World Violist

Edmond-Dantes said:


> Actually, you are both right, as you can use both a bow and a hammer with it. It is an Idiophone and can be used as a "Friction Idiophone" or a "Percussion Idiophone."


Ah, touche. Thank you for alerting me to this; I haven't heard the hammer variant yet.


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## Edmond-Dantes

Huh. I tried to find you a video of it, but I couldn't find it. I HAVE however looked at about 15 websites and the all said that you could play the saw using a mallet or hammer.

I once saw somebody using a hammer at a festival, so I knew that some people DID play it that way, but it looks like MOST people play it with a bow...


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## Guest

Edward Elgar said:


> Failing to get a majority on my last thread of this nature, I'm going to see if you will be seduced by this unconventional yet beautiful instrument!


Do you mean a Chain Saw? I thought not, am I a musical instrument, of course not. You mean a Rip Saw, well it is as much a musical instrument as the B*==D# computer,


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## JTech82

Edward Elgar said:


> Here are some youtube clips to help you decide.


Those are some of the most musically insulting videos I've ever witnessed. Absolutely first-rate noise pollution.


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## World Violist

JTech82 said:


> Those are some of the most musically insulting videos I've ever witnessed. Absolutely first-rate noise pollution.


I agree that they aren't so great musically, but still, it makes sound and can be used for music, therefore it is still a musical instrument.

After all, so is a kazoo, and they're pretty horrible too... maybe not that bad, but still.


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## Edward Elgar

Yes! I have a majority on this forum that think an unestablished instrument is an instrument! I wonder why that wasn't the case in the laptop thread.

Maybe for those who voted no, you should consider whether anvils, kazoos or car horns are instruments. They have been used by composers and they will be used again. Let's face it, composers are the only ones with any say over what is an instrument and they seem pretty ok with using unestablished instruments in their compositions.

I know this raises questions about personal taste, but then again, it's inevitable that everytime a composer does something different he or she is criticised for doing so. Hasn't the time yet come whereby we all simply enjoy sound or will that day never come?


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## nickgray

Edward Elgar said:


> Yes! I have a majority on this forum that think an unestablished instrument is an instrument! I wonder why that wasn't the case in the laptop thread.


'Cause laptop is like a material (wood, alloy), and you can build lots of instruments from it. A huge brick of wood isn't an instrument, but you can made lots of them from it - same thing with laptop - you can install lots of different vsti's, samplers, etc.


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## Sid James

Years ago I saw a busker at Circular Quay here in Sydney play the saw. It's got a wierd, creepy sound. As stated above, would be good as a musical effect in a symphonic work (as I see Khatchaturian used one).

As has been stated above, many composers use different sounds in their work. These can even be tool or sounds of building sites, which is what *Varese* recorded and used in _Deserts_. I think pieces like this have redefined what is the meaning of music. So whatever instrument the composer wants to use in a piece is obviously making music, and so (in that context) is a musical instrument.


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## Guest

You can actually buy a purpose made Musical Saw, this is made from different material and is tempered in a specific way to give a greater volume and range, it has at least twice the volume, range etc than a normal Chipies Rip Saw and therefore this is a musical instrument as it was *made for this specific purpose* but a normal Saw is not a musical instrument as it was made* specifically for sawing timber*


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## Edmond-Dantes

Well, I still would consider any saw a musical instrument if it was used to make music. After all, I don't think that in Das Rheingold the anvils were made specifically for that purpose.


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## Guest

Edmond-Dantes said:


> Well, I still would consider any saw a musical instrument if it was used to make music. After all, I don't think that in Das Rheingold the anvils were made specifically for that purpose.


In that case give your definition of a musical instrument


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## Edmond-Dantes

Any object constructed or used for making music.


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## Sid James

Yesterday on the radio, I just heard some works by the Russian futurists, from the early 20's which included car horns, sirens, radio wave sounds, etc. as well as more conventional instruments. It's amazing that even that early on, composers were so adventurous in what things they used as the source of the sounds in their works. This was decades before the first electronic music came out, so it's very interesting.


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## Guest

Edmond-Dantes said:


> Any object constructed or used for making music.


Constructed OK, used definitely not e,g

Using that rationale any thing that can be used to hit things with [spade-saxophone stone] are Hammers
Any thing that can be used to stop a pile of papers blowing away [bassoon-shoe-flute] are paper weights. plainly ridiculous


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## Edmond-Dantes

http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/MUSICALINSTRUMENT
The other definition came from wikipedia.


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## Edmond-Dantes

Hmm..... I started do what I normally find irrational. I'm trying to change your mind, and I've no clue why.lol You have your opinion and I have mine, and NEITHER of us are going to change our minds because both of us think we are 'right.'

This topic is a perfect example of why music is so subjective.


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## bongos

I'm planning to make a saw to which you dance the jig , and yes I will name it a jig saw


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## Edward Elgar

bongos said:


> I'm planning to make a saw to which you dance the jig , and yes I will name it a jig saw


Oooh! I've died a little inside! Put that on a christmas cracker lol!


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## Edward Elgar

My definition of an instrument is: Any entity that can make a sound that is instigated and/or manipulated by human choice.

If all instruments were made with the purpose of being used in a musical composition, how would we invent new instruments?

We need to experiment with the sonorities of all materials at our disposal, otherwise no new instruments will ever be invented. The fun police may disagree with this and state that the instruments we have now are enough. I say that's not in the favour of classical music.

Saying that, we have created and developed established instruments over the years. It's important that we regard them as established instruments on which one can study.


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## Nicola

Edward Elgar said:


> My definition of an instrument is: Any entity that can make a sound that is instigated and/or manipulated by human choice.
> 
> If all instruments were made with the purpose of being used in a musical composition, how would we invent new instruments?
> 
> We need to experiment with the sonorities of all materials at our disposal, otherwise no new instruments will ever be invented. The fun police may disagree with this and state that the instruments we have now are enough. I say that's not in the favour of classical music.
> 
> Saying that, we have created and developed established instruments over the years. It's important that we regard them as established instruments on which one can study.


Don't you think that there enough musical instruments already to satisfy the requirements for playing what the vast majority of the general public considers to be classical music?

Your approach seems to be take a very broad definition of instrument as anything capable of making sounds at human instigation, and then argue that one day some new piece of classical "music" might be written to make use of it. I guess you might be right in the sense that a piece of so-called music might be written for it (e.g. a saw), but really and truly I cannot imagine such music will ever catch on. If it does, it won't be classical music as the vast majority understand this term.


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## Herzeleide

Nicola said:


> Don't you think that there enough musical instruments already to satisfy the requirements for playing what the vast majority of the general public considers to be classical music?
> 
> Your approach seems to be take a very broad definition of instrument as anything capable of making sounds at human instigation, and then argue that one day some new piece of classical "music" might be written to make use of it. I guess you might be right in the sense that a piece of so-called music might be written for it (e.g. a saw), but really and truly I cannot imagine such music will ever catch on. If it does, it won't be classical music as the vast majority understand this term.


That's because the vast majority have no idea what classical music is.


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## World Violist

Um... I don't think this thread was made to debate the validity of the saw as a musical instrument that could be potentially in common use for classical music. No, it was only made to debate the saw's validity as a musical instrument. It doesn't matter how pretty it is or anything like that, so you might as well not say anything if you're going to say that.

I repeat my previous conviction that if the kazoo is an instrument, then absolutely the musical saw is as well, no doubt about it.


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## Guest

Edward Elgar said:


> My definition of an instrument is: Any entity that can make a sound that is instigated and/or manipulated by human choice.


That covers a hell of a lot, such as Me, my Car, my Cat, Really I expected better!


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## World Violist

Andante said:


> That covers a hell of a lot, such as Me, my Car, my Cat, Really I expected better!


Actually, no; I think you'll find it rather hard to tune your cat or car.


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## Guest

World Violist said:


> Actually, no; I think you'll find it rather hard to tune your cat or car.


No believe me it is easy


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## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> That covers a hell of a lot, such as Me, my Car, my Cat, Really I expected better!


You are an instrument. In fact humans are the earliest instruments, their voices that is. Composers have already used car parts in music. As for a cat, there may be a time when composers will pioneer in "cat composition". This seems a natural progression considering composers throughout history have tried to immitate te sound of a cat.

When you say, "I expected better", what does this mean exactly? If you expected me to be exclusive and closed-minded stating that if it isn't a piano or violin it's not an instrument, then I fear I havn't expressed my opinions well enough.

I'd like to hear your definition of an instrument. No doubt it will be along the lines of, "either piano, violin, viola, cello, double bass, flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, trumpet, horn, trombone or tuba". In fact the tuba is a relatively modern sound making apparatus so maybe it's a bit too radical to consider this an instrument just yet!


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## Edward Elgar

Nicola said:


> Don't you think that there enough musical instruments already to satisfy the requirements for playing what the vast majority of the general public considers to be classical music?


Art is not about appeasing the ignorant masses, that's the job of popular culture. Classical music would merely become pop music if this was it's cause.

So yes for some, but no for me.


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## marval

Well it seems more people said yes, I voted no. I am not sure I would call it a musical instrument, although I have seen people on tv play one. Maybe it's beause it is not coventional that I don't see it as a musical instrument.


Margaret


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## Guest

Edward Elgar said:


> You are an instrument.
> 
> I'd like to hear your definition of an instrument. No doubt it will be along the lines of, "either piano, violin, viola, cello, double bass, flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, trumpet, horn, trombone or tuba". In fact the tuba is a relatively modern sound making apparatus so maybe it's a bit too radical to consider this an instrument just yet!


OK repeating again what I consider a musical instrument:
That which has been constructed with the purpose of making music
you will _possibly_ see that does not encompass things that make a noise [me-you] or that which can be made to make a noise. [a kicked bucket-a breaking window] simple really


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## Tapkaara

At least this thread is more useful than "is silence music?".


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## Sid James

Let's not get too cerebral here. Anything can be a musical instrument, depending on the *context* in which it's used. If a siren is used to accompany an orchestra, as in *Varese*'s _Ameriques_ for instance, then it's a musical instrument (in that context).


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## Guest

I realise musicians are suppose to be a bit creative but some of the posters on this thread stretch things beyond reality, If a cricket bat is a musical instrument why on earth is it called a.... wait for it..... Cricket Bat, to make things easy for these people why not call every thing "Musical Instrument"


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## Edward Elgar

Andre said:


> Anything can be a musical instrument, depending on the *context* in which it's used. If a siren is used to accompany an orchestra, as in *Varese*'s _Ameriques_ for instance, then it's a musical instrument (in that context).


Oooh! That's quite a radical assertion!

The idea that Varese would devalue the definition of an instrument by writing for a siren simply brings his mediocraty as a composer and creative thinker into sharp relief!


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## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> I realise musicians are suppose to be a bit creative


Yes, but as you say, only a bit. If composers try and think too creatively their thoughts should be censored or even banned. It's not a musicians right to think, that's not what the public pay them for.


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## Sid James

Edward Elgar said:


> Oooh! That's quite a radical assertion!
> 
> The idea that Varese would devalue the definition of an instrument by writing for a siren simply brings his mediocraty as a composer and creative thinker into sharp relief!


I think that Varese would have been right at home in this discussion!

Here are some quotes of his that I've already posted on the Varese thread, which are quite pertinent here, I think:

"Contrary to general belief an artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs."

"I refuse to limit myself to sounds that have already been heard."

"I am not a musician. I work with rhythms, frequencies and intensities. Tunes are the gossips in music."

In _Ameriques_ in particular, Varese used sirens to paint a picture of big city life. I think this is very effective. Much like the car-horn like sounds that Gershwin used coming from the brass in _An American in Paris_.

So, whatever instruments (call them tools if you wish!) a composer uses to make sounds in a work, the sounds that are made is the point, not where they come from. I mean, tape decks are not instruments, for example, but they are used by many composers to provide sounds in their music.

So let's not get bogged down in useless semantics...


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## Guest

Andre said:


> "Contrary to general belief an artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs."


They could be behind the composers time but they can never be behind their own time.



> "I refuse to limit myself to sounds that have already been heard."
> "I am not a musician. I work with rhythms, frequencies and intensities. Tunes are the gossips in music."


it could be said that he is not a composer if he keeps away from tunes

So, whatever instruments (call them tools if you wish!) a composer uses to make sounds in a work, the sounds that are made is the point, not where they come from. I mean, *tape decks are not instruments*, for example, but they are used by many composers to provide sounds in their music.

So let's not get bogged down in useless semantics...[/QUOTE]

*There you are then "tape decks are not instruments" neither are computers,Saws,people,Cow Bells, Anvils or Cricket Bats,* 
*I rest my case*


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## Edward Elgar

Andante said:


> They could be behind the composers time but they can never be behind their own time.


Eh? That's just a clumsy way of saying composers are ahead of their time! Why try to rephrase a phrase that has no meaning? Of course people who reject contemporary art are behind their own time because the evolution of creative thinking is occuring faster than they can keep up, just like the folks at the premier of "The Rite of Spring".



Andante said:


> It could be said that he is not a composer if he keeps away from tunes.


It gets better! Yes, anyone who doesn't write tunes you can whistle in the street should be dismissed as a composer. Because, as we all know, if you can't dulcify the dopey masses you havn't got a shred of intelligence or originality. After we have denounced these free-thinking lunatics we can concentrate on what real music is. Nice triads with scales on top!


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## Margaret

I've been keeping up with this thread and have finally voted. I voted "Yes." In the end I thought about all the times I've seen not just the saw being played, but _washboards_ and _jugs_ as well. They certainly made music to me. So when it's being used as a musical instrument I consider it to be a musical instrument.


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## Edward Elgar

Margaret said:


> In the end I thought about all the times I've seen not just the saw being played, but _washboards_ and _jugs_ as well. They certainly made music to me.


Don't you see? That's what the radicals want you to think! If you are gaining genuine enjoyment from washboards and jugs that means you have been conned! Cease your enjoyment! Prevent the evolution of music! Burn your kazoos and paper combs! Prevent sound from being generated by any entity exept one that belongs in the classical symphony orchestra!


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## Sid James

Edward Elgar said:


> Don't you see? That's what the radicals want you to think! If you are gaining genuine enjoyment from washboards and jugs that means you have been conned! Cease your enjoyment! Prevent the evolution of music! Burn your kazoos and paper combs! Prevent sound from being generated by any entity exept one that belongs in the classical symphony orchestra!


Very droll, sir, very droll! (As Humphrey Applebey would say)

It's a refreshing change from some of the people above who are taking this way too seriously, quoting others as if it's some sort of formal academic argument...


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## Sid James

Margaret said:


> In the end I thought about all the times I've seen not just the saw being played, but _washboards_ and _jugs_ as well. They certainly made music to me. So when it's being used as a musical instrument I consider it to be a musical instrument.


I agree with this. Whatever tool or machine is used in a musical context, it is a musical instrument (in that context, but not on it's own). Varese did this often, as I have discussed above, but on the lighter side, so did Leroy Anderson, in the famous _Typewriter_.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Varese, now we are talking - good old Sid


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