# Missa Solemnis as an anti-war statement



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

There were lots of "battle symphonies" before Beethoven, and even he wrote one. In most cases, the battles seem to be portrayed as exciting events that end with the survivors going to a nearby pub to quaff ale and have a merry time. Even Haydn, in his _Military Symphony_, lets not a shadow fall on his military flourishes.

In the _Missa Solemnis_, for the first time to my knowledge, the idea of war takes on darker tones of misery. The interludes in the Agnus Dei, with their trumpets and drums and simultaneous cries of anguish, make this very clear.



> Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us.
> Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, grant us peace.


Is anybody familiar with earlier music that might be considered "anti-war"?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

KenOC said:


> There were lots of "battle symphonies" before Beethoven, and even he wrote one. In most cases, the battles seem to be portrayed as exciting events that end with the survivors going to a nearby pub to quaff ale and have a merry time. Even Haydn, in his _Military Symphony_, lets not a shadow fall on his military flourishes.
> 
> In the _Missa Solemnis_, for the first time to my knowledge, the idea of war takes on darker tones of misery. The interludes in the Agnus Dei, with their trumpets and drums and simultaneous cries of anguish, make this very clear.
> 
> Is anybody familiar with earlier music that might be considered "anti-war"?


Yes
Then we also have Pettersson's 12th sym, as a statement against evil repressive, murderous governments. I think AP has gone much further than Beethoven ever did. 
I don't think there is any other work like Pettersson's 12th, which gives voice to the countless millions over history who have suffered, persecuted, murdered by all governments world wide past 5 K years. 
The 12th is the DEFINITIVE anti war, anti Illuminati symphony. 
The line you quote from the end of MS, is nothing more than a quip from the old roman religion, dressed up in new clothes, called the Roman catholic Chruch, which is a Italian construct, and given new life by the Germanic kings of The Empire (The illuminati).
No I ain;'t buying, I never felt any spirituality about Beethoven's music. I will not go any further, I think I am clear where I intend to go with this...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Yes
> Then we also have Pettersson's 12th sym, as a statement against evil repressive, murderous governments. I think AP has gone much further than Beethoven ever did.
> I don't think there is any other work like Pettersson's 12th, which gives voice to the countless millions over history who have suffered, persecuted, murdered by all governments world wide past 5 K years.
> The 12th is the DEFINITIVE anti war, anti Illuminati symphony.
> ...


Where you "intend to go with this" is somewhere outside the OP's inquiry. The question was, "Is anybody familiar with *earlier* music that might be considered 'anti-war'?" But, obviously, any excuse will do - or rather, no excuse is needed - for you to divert a thread into empty propaganda for your pet composers. It seems you didn't join the forum to participate in it but to co-op it. It's beyond tiresome. It may be offensive.

As to your statement that "AP has gone much further than Beethoven ever did," it's meaningless. Pettersson and Beethoven are not in competition for anything. And when "the countless millions over history who have suffered, persecuted, murdered by all governments world wide past 5 K years" drop by to confirm it, I will believe that Petterson's 12th symphony "gives voice" to them. Otherwise this is just more hot gas from a fanboy who seems to be high on it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yes, I understand I did take the OP a lot further. I was only suggesting maybe we could expand on the idea of compoers who believed that war has destroyed humanity past 5K yrs..I mean I would be very surprised if anyone can bring up a composer 100 yrs pre MS, and extend the range to 100 yrs after Beethoven who has a work specifically composed as a complete total antiwar score.
I seriously doubt it.
I would tend to think Shostakovich is the very 1st who intentional made scores woven with anti government war machinery. We know Shostakovich had to be very cautious as Stalin had a very sharp ax.
Shostakovich was the 1st to employ anti war ideas in music in such as way as the theme is dominate.
I get nothing of this is Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. 
Beethoven could have cared less what governments were doing in his day, and before. Anti war agenda was the least of his inspirations in composition. His life shows this.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Besides which, why the vitriolic attitude?
I thought we were all here to ask and learn from each other,. You could , and others as well, just ignored my pernicious comment, as out of order. 
I had no intentions of hijacking the new topic,. 
I am one who just likes to expand on ideas and go further . I would hope we can all be civil here. 
I am new here and do not wish to out welcome my stay


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Besides which, why the vitriolic attitude?
> I thought we were all here to ask and learn from each other,. You could , and others as well, just ignored my pernicious comment, as out of order.
> I had no intentions of hijacking the new topic,.
> I am one who just likes to expand on ideas and go further . I would hope we can all be civil here.
> I am new here and do not wish to out welcome my stay


Every post I've seen of yours, no matter what the topic of the thread, reads like propaganda for Pettersson, Schnittke, Henze and Carter. In this case it's disrespectful to the originator of the thread, who has to watch you, as his first responder, ignoring him and going off on some tangent that you find more agreeable. Subsequent contributors who see your post may respond to your diversion, and then where are we? You appear so obsessed with your fetishes that you don't even care about the discussion you're entering. Is this an enormous egotism or a mental aberration? Whatever it is, it comes across as bad manners and, possibly, lunacy.

On the OP: KenOC pointed to a single passage in the Missa Solemnis which refers to war. War is not the subject of the Missa Solemnis. Your snide remarks about Beethoven, his work and his life, are unwarranted by anything in this discussion. Your fundamental concern on this forum is obviously to compare anyone and everyone to your idols and prove them inferior, even if you must set up straw men and create scenarios unrelated to reality. That hardly "expands on ideas and goes further," unless it goes into a ditch.

If you can have a discussion without mentioning your quartet of "greatest composers of all time" and putting down some acknowledged great or the people who haven't seen the light and realized that Pettersson is better, I'd like to see proof of it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Ok, I admit I was out of line.
can I ask this Q, perhaps all composers who came down theough the centuries with lasting value, perhaps all were advocates for peace , friendship, as great art is meant to be shared among good friends,. Perhaps this art form itself, is antiwar. Great music enriches our life, gives us experiences which many other things in this world can't provide. 
We all love music, due to its intrinsic values, , . Thus great composers are in effect, anti-war, as they are promoters and sponsors of peaceful gatherings in concert venues. 
I mean if more generals had a great love for Mozart, perhaps the wars may not have been as baneful as they all were. Muisc has power to transform and make us rise above differences.
This is how I see all great composers, as ambassadors for peace among all mankind. 
So perhaps great classical music itself can be heard as trumpets of peace. 
Maybe classical music does have a utility value, that of harbinger of peace.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

But to answer the OP, no I have no hunches of a composer near or before Beethoven;s epoch, which made specific intentions to bring in anti war score onto the concert stage. 
Beethoven indeed may have been the first to express sadness and sorrow for how Europe had torn itself apart in incessant waring.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The polytonal sections of extreme dissonance in Biber's _Battalia á 10_ qualify I think as suggesting 'darker tones of misery' relating to war.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

paulbest said:


> But to answer the OP, no I have no hunches of a composer near or before Beethoven;s epoch, which made specific intentions to bring in anti war score onto the concert stage.
> Beethoven indeed may have been the first to express sadness and sorrow for how Europe had torn itself apart in incessant waring.


Thank you. :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Agnus Dei of Haydn's "Mass in Time of War" (_Paukenmesse,_ Hob XXII:9) features timpani and a hint of violence which, though less explicitly about war than the agitated passage in the _Missa Solemnis_, might be thought to foreshadow it and might have given Beethoven the idea.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm having second thoughts. Conan, on being asked by a Mongol general what was best in life, responded: "To crush your enemies, to see dem driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of de wimmen!" (accent courtesy of a previous governor of California)


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

KenOC said:


> There were lots of "battle symphonies" before Beethoven, and even he wrote one. In most cases, the battles seem to be portrayed as exciting events that end with the survivors going to a nearby pub to quaff ale and have a merry time. Even Haydn, in his _Military Symphony_, lets not a shadow fall on his military flourishes.
> 
> In the _Missa Solemnis_, for the first time to my knowledge, the idea of war takes on darker tones of misery. The interludes in the Agnus Dei, with their trumpets and drums and simultaneous cries of anguish, make this very clear.
> 
> Is anybody familiar with earlier music that might be considered "anti-war"?


I have wanted to share my thoughts and feelings regarding the passage in Beethoven's Agnus Dei where it is so powerful it has always sounded to me as a shout of rage from a believer to God--a shout from a person who has encountered God for quite a long time and knows s/he can speak to God like this. "Damn it, God! HAVE MERCY ON US!" i just love this it is such AN HONEST exclamation. The only thing that has bothered me about it is that Beethoven didn't lengthen that passage: it is so incredibly, unfortunately short.

Am I in keeping with the OP, well I think so, Ken. It was never about WAR. It was something much more personal. I am glad you asked the question so I could finally voice something that I have wanted to say for a very long time.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

‘The MS concludes with a fraught, fragile and unanswered plea for peace amid the drumbeats of war. But the answer comes in the Ninth Symphony, with its chorale finale based on Schiller's "Ode to Joy," written in a time of revolution. Those words and Beethoven's music call for humankind to kneel before the creator, but for answers to turn to one another. The path to peace, he suggests, is bestowed not from above, but from within us and among us, in universal brotherhood.’ The MS is a religious appeal for peace, while the 9th is a secular appeal for brotherhood. Both works were composed quite closely together and some view them as complementary to each other.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

From Hildegard von Bingen's 'O ignis Spiritus paracliti' ('O fire of the Spirit and Defender')

3a. O lorica vite et spes compaginis
membrorum omnium
et o cingulum honestatis: salva beatos.

3b. Custodi eos qui carcerati sunt ab inimico,
et solve ligatos
quos divina vis salvare vult.

4a. O iter fortissimum, quod penetravit
omnia in altissimis et in terrenis
et in omnibus abyssis,
tu omnes componis et colligis.

3a. O living armor, hope that binds
the every limb,
O belt of honor: save the blessed.

3b. Guard those enchained in evil's prison,
and loose the bonds of those
whose saving freedom is the forceful will of God.

4a. O mighty course that runs within and through
the all-up in the heights, upon the earth,
and in the every depth-
you bind and gather all together.

https://lyricstranslate.com/nl/translator/saintmark

Just a thought: Until Beethoven, composers who could write, were paid by people in power, such as the Church, Royalty or Nobility. The same people who would start wars, would probably not like to be reminded of the blood on their hands. The music was meant to distract and enjoy and 'always look at the bright side of life'. So, apart from religiously inspired texts (Von Bingen's example, Bach's Passion music), there would be not much space for music from the dark side of life or anti-war music.

The non writing travelling musicians of the old days were singing their folk music about the basic things in life: war and love, but they didn't usually write it down.

Until Beethoven, who was more of an independent composer then Mozart or even Bach, it is difficult to find music on critical issues. After Beethoven, you will find more and more anti-war music.

Another coincidence could be the revolutionary period in Europe, ignited by the growing self conscience of artists like Goethe, Shakespeare, who also inspired many composers to write revolutionary music. As the traditional powers of church, royalty and nobility were rapidly decreasing, artists would become less dependent of them and so could produce more critical art.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> 'The MS concludes with a fraught, fragile and unanswered plea for peace amid the drumbeats of war. But the answer comes in the Ninth Symphony, with its chorale finale based on Schiller's "Ode to Joy," written in a time of revolution. Those words and Beethoven's music call for humankind to kneel before the creator, but for answers to turn to one another. The path to peace, he suggests, is bestowed not from above, but from within us and among us, in universal brotherhood.' The MS is a religious appeal for peace, while the 9th is a secular one for brotherhood. Both works were composed quite closely together and some view them as complementary to each other.


Great insight, wonderful post. :tiphat:


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> From Hildegard von Bingen's 'O ignis Spiritus paracliti' ('O fire of the Spirit and Defender')
> 
> 3a. O lorica vite et spes compaginis
> membrorum omnium
> ...


Excellent understanding surrounding influences upon compoers, 
So if some composers did have ideas of antiwar sentiments, perhaps it would be best to suppress these sentiments, and move on. Knowing if they upset the status quo, which support the musical arts, perhaps the critics might give a bad review.
The wealthy made (nd lost) money in the war machine, and did not wish that composers to give the wider public any ideas about their schemes.

Besides composers may have felt a total commitment to art, for its intrinsic beauty, which does not include the ugliness of war. 
Composers may have felt a total commitment to their creative imaginations , with no regard for man's inevitable wars.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

The best recent musical example being Shostakovich (off topic for this thread, my apologies), who constantly struggled with the Soviet forces about his music. And nowadays, populist alt-right freaks and the new autoritarians are constantly trying to suppress and belittle modern culture, as anyone who thinks and acts independently, is a threat to those ultimately seeking to suppress others.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

This is gonna be a stretch...

Bach's early Capriccio on the Departure of a Beloved Brother (I'm paraphrasing that title) supposedly contains melodic language that is supposed to correspond to a cautionary conversation between Bach and his older brother who was about to join the military. There is a long descending motif that is supposed to represent Bach telling his brother of all the horrors he would experience during wartime. It ends on a note of resolution when he accepts his brother's fate and lets him go. Not only is this some of the earliest music that can be seen as "anti-war", but it's some of Bach's only programmatic keyboard music. 

Well, I told you it was gonna be a stretch :lol:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

That is a powerful passage -- but only one such -- in a powerful work whose aim, in Beethoven's words, was "to awaken and permanently instill religious feelings, not only in the singers, but also in the listeners" -- which it certainly does to me, a religious agnostic. Vienna was war-torn during much of Beethoven's life, and he certainly felt it. But the MS is "about" much more.

I an unaware of overtly anti-war passages in earlier works (in fact of overtly strongly held anti-war feelings in Western art since those of the Classical Greeks). In times since, Britten's War Requiem is fairly unique. Tippett was a conscientious objector but only wrote veiled messages of universal brotherhood in his music (chiefly A Child of Our Time).


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> 'The MS concludes with a fraught, fragile and unanswered plea for peace amid the drumbeats of war. But the answer comes in the Ninth Symphony, with its chorale finale based on Schiller's "Ode to Joy," written in a time of revolution. Those words and Beethoven's music call for humankind to kneel before the creator, but for answers to turn to one another. The path to peace, he suggests, is bestowed not from above, but from within us and among us, in universal brotherhood.' The MS is a religious appeal for peace, while the 9th is a secular appeal for brotherhood. Both works were composed quite closely together and some view them as complementary to each other.


The Ninth Symphony was written 7~9 years after the fall of Napoleon and Congress of Vienna, which brought Europe back to the old social order. (I've seen people making connections between Chopin's Revolutionary Etude with Poland's November Uprising. But never Beethoven with the French Revolution, the actual event) Rather, I believe stuff like Le Nozze di Figaro, written just 3 years before the French Revolution, would appear as "call-to-arms" for the event, especially if you buy into the 'conspiracy theories' surrounding it.






_"Significantly the very first aria of Act One is sung by Leporello, Don Giovanni's manservant, who curses his lot while waiting in the cold while his master chases after a lady indoors. The message of Leporello's aria is politically subversive - a call for the social order to be inverted:

"Notte e giorno faticar,
Per chi nulla sa gradir,
Piove e vento sopportar,
Mangiar male e mai dormir,
Voglio far il gentiluomo
E non voglio piu' servir.
Oh che caro galantuomo!
Voi star dentro colla bella,
Ed io far la sentinella!"

[Night and day I slave
For one who does not appreciate it.
I put up with wind and rain,
Eat badly, never sleep,
I want to be a gentleman
And give up my servitude.
Oh what a fine gentleman!
You stay inside with your lady
And I play the sentinel!]"_
https://www.marxist.com/figaro-french-revolution-mozart.htm


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

not music before Beethoven, but still deserves a mention, I think:


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

the early 17th century echings _Les Grandes Misères de la guerre_ is commonly cited as the first European anti-war work, reflecting the depredations of the Thirty Years' War. A number of German baroque composers lived through the conflict and
a little googling found this



> The religious and political turmoil of the Thirty Years' War significantly impacted the performance and preservation of sacred Baroque music in the German lands. Conflict between the Catholics and Protestants created an unstable social environment, which resulted in a myriad of responses from composers and performers. Leading composers including Heinrich Schütz, Michael Praetorius, Thomas Selle, and Heinrich Scheidemann, expressed their values either overtly or implicitly depending upon their occupational, geographical, political, and religious positions. Research indicates that the influences of the Thirty Years' War created an ideal environment for the flourishing of the following German music in the late Baroque Era.


https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=musicalofferings


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## Varick (Apr 30, 2014)

paulbest said:


> Ok, I admit I was out of line.
> can I ask this Q, perhaps all composers who came down theough the centuries with lasting value, perhaps all were advocates for peace , friendship, as great art is meant to be shared among good friends,. Perhaps this art form itself, is antiwar. Great music enriches our life, gives us experiences which many other things in this world can't provide.
> We all love music, due to its intrinsic values, , . Thus great composers are in effect, anti-war, as they are promoters and sponsors of peaceful gatherings in concert venues.
> I mean if more generals had a great love for Mozart, perhaps the wars may not have been as baneful as they all were. Muisc has power to transform and make us rise above differences.
> ...


I believe Górecki's Symphony #3 conveys not a direct anti-war sentiment, but often the horrific side effects of war. A mother who lost her son during the war (how many times has that motif played out in real life?) and never knowing his final fate, sings with aching prayer and sorrow.

Without explicit notes from the composer or biographers, I believe projections of one's beliefs are often attributed to pieces of music that were often never intended by the composer himself. It's just mental and emotional onanism to entertain such thoughts as the above post demonstrates, never mind the soap bubble strength ideas in it.

V


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A book by Dieter Senghaas, where some excerpts can be found on Google-books, has interesting info about pacifist-related music, such as in pastorals, the rendering of selected Christian texts, and music that describes peace generally, plus advocates for the peaceful collaboration between cultures. Such as in some Baroque works, etc. 
('6.8: Peace', page 136, + p.139 '6.9 Concluding Observation':

https://books.google.dk/books?id=df...v=onepage&q=pacifist baroque composer&f=false

Among the works, he mentions a passage in Bach's _Hunting Cantata_ and t_he Mass in b_, Händel's _La Paix _orchestral movement, etc.

In 6.3 "Da Pacem - The Petition for Peace' p.132-133,
he says that _Missa Solemnis _takes traits of the _Mass in a Time of War_ and develops them further.

(( In modern music, there are many more examples - one could also mention Nørgård's _La Nuit des Hommes _as a particularly dissecting and terrifying example https://www.dacapo-records.dk/en/recordings/norgard-nuit-des-hommes )).


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## Potiphera (Mar 24, 2011)

Franz Liszt: The Battle of the Huns


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have no offers of music before the 19th century that espouses anti-war sentiments but, as even generals will have noticed that war can often be an awful experience, it is no surprise that war has occasionally been held up as such or even as an evil. But full fledged pacifism is surely a more recent phenomenon? (Does anyone know the history of how pacifist ideas emerged and when?). I suppose *the *great pacifist work is Britten's War Requiem but there is also Tippett's early Child of Our Time. Both Britten and Tippett were passionate pacifists. Vaughan Williams was not but he also wrote pacifist works including Dona Nobis Pacem. And there are a great many other composers also espousing anti-war sentiments.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm not at all sure just how muchBeethoven'spkea for peace in theAfnus Dei us a plea for world peace or his own inner peace. The work ends on a very uncertain and uneasy note.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

If we are also looking past Beethoven, I would like to contribute Schonberg's 'a survivor from Warsaw'.

Years ago I heard a concert where 'a survivor...' was coupled with Beethoven's ninth. It was Valery Gergiev conducting the Rotterdam Philharmonic. He played both pieces without a break and even literally connected the last note of Schoenberg to the first of Beethoven. It was an almost transcendental experience to hear these two pieces become one and, I said it before here, an example of innovative programming, rarely seen. A stronger anti-war statement could not be made.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> muchBeethoven'spkea for peace in theAfnus Dei us a plea


How's that again?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

NLAdriaan said:


> If we are also looking past Beethoven, I would like to contribute Schonberg's 'a survivor from Warsaw'.
> 
> Years ago I heard a concert where 'a survivor...' was coupled with Beethoven's ninth. It was Valery Gergiev conducting the Rotterdam Philharmonic. He played both pieces without a break and even literally connected the last note of Schoenberg to the first of Beethoven. It was an almost transcendental experience to hear these two pieces become one and, I said it before here, an example of innovative programming, rarely seen. A stronger anti-war statement could not be made.


I don't know about the CD, but on the original LP recording, Leinsdorf and the BSO paired the Beethoven and Schoenberg.


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