# Which characters from Verdi's operas do you find the most interesting?



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

A companion piece to te Wagner one, though I doubt it'll get as many contributions.

Still Verdi and his librettists did create some very interesting characters, particularly in his middle to late period operas. 

I'd nominate Rigoletto, Violetta, Simon Boccanegra, Fiesco, virtually everyone in *Don Carlo*, Otello and Iago for starters.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Thank you for starting! 
Generally opera teaches us that women turn out to be wiser and more generous than men. Verdi's operas do it particularly. They are full of silly tenors and smart sopranos and mezzos. 
This is a kind of a list, but not a rating. 
1. Amneris. 
2. Renato in Ballo. There is too much inside him than the score and the voice can explain. 
3. Felipe II, princess Eboli, Isabel de Valois. The opera is no less interesting than their real relationship. 
4. Violetta and Germont Sr. I can't stand productions, where he tries to press on her in the second act. It shows full incomprehension by a director and, I'm afraid, by singers. 
5. Simon Boccanegra and Jacopo Fiesco. 
6. Rigoletto. 
7. Wives of Windsor in Falstaff. 
8. The Macbeths. 
9. Abigail. 
10. Montforte in I Vespri.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I think Don Carlo himself is at least as iteresting as Felipe, Eboli and Elisabetta, which admittedly is an unusual relationship. (You can imagine Elisabetta saying, "You see there were three of us in this relationship.")

But back to Carlo himself, a young man neglected by his father, who nonetheless craves his father's approval, which appears to be reserved for his best friend Posa. Does Carlo also suffer from epilepsy or something similar? There is evidence to suggest this when he has some kind of fit whilst pouring out his heart to Elisabetta in the Garden Scene. Also is his admiration for his friend slightly more than that? Does he harbour secret homosexual feelings for Posa? Carlo is no hero but he is I think one of Verdi's most interesting tenor roles.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Rigoletto will always be at the top, with a few others, of any list of my beloved and interesting, operatic characters. Amneris’ inability to refrain from destroying the one she loves if she can’t have him and her haunted reflections… I myself have put him in their power, I myself… I myself… Is to me an all time great operatic depiction of human failing at its most compelling.I love Boccanegra but if the word is interesting I don’t put him quite in the top category. Having read your observations before writing mine… Which I only do with the original post...I very much like the inclusion of Fiesco, who I would not have thought of but who is filled with surprises and yes I like him in that category! Don Carlo in Forza became three dimensional and fascinating for me once I heard Muti give a description of him in an article. He spoke of how charming and filled with life and truly , the life of the party he is, and How people are drawn to him and yet when the question Of family honor comes into play he’s absolutely convulsed and twisted into something so different. Final inclusion for now (can’t help but think that some character will come screaming at me later “you didn’t include BORSA??!!!”) I can’t say that I find Ernani as interesting as all of these characters but I can say I have spent time mulling over how he could not have come up with a better deal with Silva than the one he did!😆


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Didn’t take long… Don Carlo (tenor) is an excellent inclusion. I can really be in the “Domingo is so often generic“ club but in the Met video, to me he looks and seems like that teetering on the edge type of guy that makes sense for all the things that you described!


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## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Don Carlo and Violetta. Azucena and Simon Boccanegra are fairly interesting as well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Iago is a nihilist. His destruction of Otello, nominally motivated by revenge for not being given the position he thinks he deserves, is a game from which he gains nothing but, presumably, a momentary sense of power and validation. I'm inclined to think that his dramatic "credo," in which he declares loudly his lack of belief in anything positive, is a little melodramatic and a concession to operatic convention, musically superb though it is, but with or without it he exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience. Though Shakespeare provides the dramatic material here, the power of opera relies on music much more than on words, and it's Verdi's powers as a composer that make Iago one of opera's greatest villains.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

How could I forget Ezio and Odabella from Attila and Leonora with Azucena.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Violetta, Lady Macbeth, Otello, Iago, Amneris, Eboli, Azucena, Rigoletto.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Iago/Rigoletto/The Grand Inquisitor/Lady Macbeth/Phillippe/Eboli


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Iago is a nihilist. His destruction of Otello, nominally motivated by revenge for not being given the position he thinks he deserves, is a game from which he gains nothing but, presumably, a momentary sense of power and validation. I'm inclined to think that his dramatic "credo," in which he declares loudly his lack of belief in anything positive, is a little melodramatic and a concession to operatic convention, musically superb though it is, but with or without it he exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience. Though Shakespeare provides the dramatic material here, the power of opera relies on music much more than on words, and it's Verdi's powers as a composer that make Iago one of opera's greatest villains.


Completely agree. Iago in the Shakespeare play is the villain but is provided with some qualities that round off his rough edges. In the Verdi opera, Iago is presented unambiguously as a manipulative, evil psychopath. Boito does a remarkable job of presenting the psychopath (malignant narcissist) in a manner that is very true to modern understandings - a remarkable achievement in the late 19th century. He must have had the misfortune of knowing one.

Phillip II in Don Carlos is the most intriguing character for me - a man nearly crushed by the weight of his heavy burden and conflicted conscience.

Falstaff gets a vote for his impenetrable self-delusion and joie de vivre. 

Others in consideration: Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, Rigoletto.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Luisa (Miller) & Odabella (Attila) I like at most. Verdi gave these characters really beautiful arias to sing.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

So I’m going to chime in here on Iago. And I’m making a bit of a prelude rather than launching in because I don’t want it to sound like I’m saying someone’s opinion and preference is wrong. That would of course be nonsense.But I am going to share my different take because sometimes that can be fun. Dick Johnson and Woodduck share marvelous, insightful observations about the character of Iago.“he exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience.“ and “Boito does a remarkable job of presenting the psychopath (malignant narcissist) in a manner that is very true to modern understandings“....both fascinating and NOT anything I had ever heard, and certainly not thought, before. BUT I have never found Iago as fascinating as many on here clearly do and I know the reason....Otello! Some may disagree but few will find it a unique take when I say that Otello is simply far too gullible to be the foil that would make Iago’s machinations top shelf. It’s on Otello’s faint ability to discern that I hang the entire dramatic failure of the piece. For me, rather than Verdi’s masterpiece I find the opera to be what many Verdi operas are...episodically brilliant. And Iago is, vrtually unchallenged. “Man but a rush against Othellos’s breast and he....”.....is it melts? The one thing the guy got right!!! Ali had Frazier....Scarpia had Tosca.........Magic and Bird had each other....there has to be a worthy opponent. Otello has some of the most glorious music Verdi ever wrote but as to fulfilling his responsibility in the drama, I think he let poor Iago.....poor conscience-less, psychopath that he is....he let the poor guy down!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> I have never found Iago as fascinating as many on here clearly do and I know the reason....Otello! Some may disagree but few will find it a unique take when I say that *Otello is simply far too gullible to be the foil that would make Iago’s machinations top shelf. * It’s on Otello’s faint ability to discern that I hang the entire dramatic failure of the piece. For me, rather than Verdi’s masterpiece I find the opera to be what many Verdi operas are...episodically brilliant. And Iago is, vrtually unchallenged. “Man but a rush against Othellos’s breast and he....”.....is it melts? The one thing the guy got right!!! *Ali had Frazier....Scarpia had Tosca.........Magic and Bird had each other....there has to be a worthy opponent.* Otello has some of the most glorious music Verdi ever wrote but as to fulfilling his responsibility in the drama, I think he let poor Iago.....poor conscience-less, psychopath that he is....he let the poor guy down!


I "like" - and like - your thoughtful post, but I'm going to argue with it. I wonder how Tosca constitutes a "worthy opponent" for Scarpia, since she has to resort to murdering him - an act of utter desperation - in order to obtain even a brief respite from his malignancy. In the end, his destructiveness proves invincible.

Life isn't a boxing match or a basketball game. Competitive sports assume that parity - fairness - is a fundamental value. But evil doesn't want a fair fight; it isn't in its nature to look for worthy opponents. Evil is exploitative and parasitic; it preys upon the weak to give it the illusion of strength. Evil is fundamentally impotent; it needs the cooperation of the gullible as it maneuvers for power over them. It destroys lives because that's all it can do; it doesn't know how to live or to create life. In Its heart is a profound cowardice, and the manipulation and destruction of others is the only available substitute - other than self-destruction - for making an authentic life, which requires authentic courage.

Loathsome and dispiriting as the spectacle may be, it's precisely evil's ease and precision in locating and exploiting human weakness that constitutes its standard of achievement and its true essence.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> So I’m going to chime in here on Iago. And I’m making a bit of a prelude rather than launching in because I don’t want it to sound like I’m saying someone’s opinion and preference is wrong. That would of course be nonsense.But I am going to share my different take because sometimes that can be fun. Dick Johnson and Woodduck share marvelous, insightful observations about the character of Iago.“he exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience.“ and “Boito does a remarkable job of presenting the psychopath (malignant narcissist) in a manner that is very true to modern understandings“....both fascinating and NOT anything I had ever heard, and certainly not thought, before. BUT I have never found Iago as fascinating as many on here clearly do and I know the reason....Otello! Some may disagree but few will find it a unique take when I say that Otello is simply far too gullible to be the foil that would make Iago’s machinations top shelf. It’s on Otello’s faint ability to discern that I hang the entire dramatic failure of the piece. For me, rather than Verdi’s masterpiece I find the opera to be what many Verdi operas are...episodically brilliant. And Iago is, vrtually unchallenged. “Man but a rush against Othellos’s breast and he....”.....is it melts? The one thing the guy got right!!! Ali had Frazier....Scarpia had Tosca.........Magic and Bird had each other....there has to be a worthy opponent. Otello has some of the most glorious music Verdi ever wrote but as to fulfilling his responsibility in the drama, I think he let poor Iago.....poor conscience-less, psychopath that he is....he let the poor guy down!


As far as Iago to Otello is concerned, I agree -- easy pickin's. But that's only the fault of Boito for writing it that way and still doesn't, in any way, take away from Woodduck's assumption about Iago that he "exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience." That is still there -- by his very own words -- it's just not projected enough in his acts toward Otello.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Had my whole response written and the phone went dead and lost it...aghh! I’d read Woodducks words again and again if they didn’t describe such a bleak and dispiriting part of life. But that fact makes them no less true and without any question that force that you describe is part of what makes Iago potent and helps the opera Otello hold the stage. I do feel that you describe something that is more philosophical than dramatic... Existentially more important but dramatically …???. To shift the dramatic importance back over to Otello, I still find that he lacks the elements that help us with our all important “willing suspension of disbelief”! Tosca has no such problem!!! She loses of course, but while she’s here she is every inch a Worthy adversary. The suspension of disbelief is something that I believe happens primarily subconsciously but is, of course, absolutely essential to the existence of drama, Otherwise these plays would be dramatically worthless after the first experience. For the likes of me, Verdi is the magician who keeps my eye/ear on his drama so I don’t notice what’s lacking in the basic story that Shakespeare set up.And I don’t want to sound dismissive of this opera, far from it, I have found parts of it to be staggering in performance. Just wish the big guy was a little more perceptive.


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## sworley (6 mo ago)

Renato in Un Ballo is the first one that comes to mind. His loyalty to the king/governor, the betrayal, the great scene with the conspirators when he realizes it's his wife hiding under that veil, and the remorse he must feel in the final moments. It's a hefty dramatic load.
Auzucena, too, has such a weighty lot of burdens. This is why it's always essential that she not just come off as one-dimensional figure.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> As far as Iago to Otello is concerned, I agree -- easy pickin's. But that's only the fault of Boito for writing it that way and still doesn't, in any way, take away from Woodduck's assumption about Iago that he "exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience." That is still there -- by his very own words -- it's just not projected enough in his acts toward Otello.


Or actually, come to think of it, it was projected enough -- it's just that Otello was an easy mark. Why they didn't give him more spunk I cannot answer. Still one of the top greatest operas of all time.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Shakespeare and racism is not something I have a well thought out point of view on. But a friend who loves Shakespeare, and has thought about Shakespeare and antisemitism, believes Merchant of Venice to be deeply antisemitic and of course he's not alone. I've wondered about the character Otello and racism but not formed a conclusion I would put down here. If anyone had an opinion and set off another thread about it, I'd be a willing reader.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm not so sure that it is so unbelievable that Iago manages to dupe Otello. Otello is a warrior, a man who does his duty and probably cannot even conceive of duplicitousness or villainy in those he chooses to trust. "Onesto Iago," he calls Iago near the beginning of the opera and this simple statement no doubt informs his attitude to him from the start. I don't think it's that unusual. I was basically brought up to be kind and considerate to others and to believe in the basic decency of people. I may be an old cynic now, but it wasn't always so and I know I've been guilty of misplacing trust in the past. An arch manipulator, like Iago, probably wouldn't have that much trouble making Otello believe him. Otello might be a easy target, but it stems from his own basic goodness and honesty.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not so sure that it is so unbelievable that Iago manages to dupe Otello. Otello is a warrior, a man who does his duty and probably cannot even conceive of duplicitousness or villainy in those he chooses to trust. "Onesto Iago," he calls Iago near the beginning of the opera and this simple statement no doubt informs his attitude to him from the start. I don't think it's that unusual. I was basically brought up to be kind and considerate to others and to believe in the basic decency of people. I may be an old cynic now, but it wasn't always so and I know I've been guilty of misplacing trust in the past. An arch manipulator, like Iago, probably wouldn't have that much trouble making Otello believe him. Otello might be a easy target, but it stems from his own basic goodness and honesty.


There's one word missing from that......Desdemona.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> There's one word missing from that......Desdemona.


In what sense do you mean? Like Otello, she too is an innocent. She can't even conceive of being unfaithful to Otello so innocently keeps pressing Cassio's case for him. Otello, on the other hand, can't quite believe his good fortune in "landing" Desdemona. Therein lie the seeds of his later mistrust. As a black man in a white world (sorry to bring race into it but it's there in the play and the opera) he feels unworthy of her and Iago plays on that.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

[


Tsaraslondon said:


> In what sense do you mean? Like Otello, she too is an innocent. She can't even conceive of being unfaithful to Otello so innocently keeps pressing Cassio's case for him. Otello, on the other hand, can't quite believe his good fortune in "landing" Desdemona. Therein lie the seeds of his later mistrust. As a black man in a white world (sorry to bring race into it but it's there in the play and the opera) he feels unworthy of her and Iago plays on that.


There is not a hint of balance in Othello’s response to what Iago says and what Desdemona says. Iago ignites Otello‘s rage and there after all of the respect - never mind affection - that Desdemona is due, is absolutely gone. After she is dead Emilia solves the riddle with the simplest explanation and Otello recognizes In a second what a dupe he’s been and what his all consuming rage has led him to do. He is absolutely and completely at the mercy of his emotions. If it’s the depiction of an individual man who happens to be black in a white society, there could be many explanations. If it’s the depiction of a representative black man, in a white society, then I have another level of problem with the depiction. But that’s not my assertion. Desdemona, as a credible, living, breathing human is meaningless to him once his manhood has been assaulted. Reason and objectivity are meaning less to him once his manhood has been assaulted. His emotions become everything.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> [
> There is not a hint of balance in Othello’s response to what Iago says and what Desdemona says. Iago ignites Otello‘s rage and there after all of the respect - never mind affection - that Desdemona is due, is absolutely gone. After she is dead Emilia solves the riddle with the simplest explanation and Otello recognizes In a second what a dupe he’s been and what his all consuming rage has led him to do. He is absolutely and completely at the mercy of his emotions. If it’s the depiction of an individual man who happens to be black in a white society, there could be many explanations. If it’s the depiction of a representative black man, in a white society, then I have another level of problem with the depiction. But that’s not my assertion. Desdemona, as a credible, living, breathing human is meaningless to him once his manhood has been assaulted. Reason and objectivity are meaning less to him once his manhood has been assaulted. His emotions become everything.


This is not 2022. Otello takes place probably at the beginning of the seventeenth century. Women were second class citizens and still considered chattels. We hadn't even seen the likes of Jane Austen yet.

Mind you there are still men around today who lose all reason and objectivity if they think their manhood has been assaulted. I'm not excusing or justifying Otello's behaviour, just saying it's not that unusual, and certainly wouldn't have been in 1603.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Not unusual for sure! My buddy and I were having a chuckle coming out of frau home schatten a couple years ago… Can’t remember exactly how the plot twist goes but we were both sharing “if she cheats she’s … Pretty much… Gotta die! “Yep!!! But this comes from Shakespeare who created Rosland in as you like it, who is virtually a textbook for the most psychologically sound and modern thoughts on how a man and a woman should relate. But your take has gone through my mind as well.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

PS. Can we no longer edit once we post?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This is not 2022. Otello takes place probably at the beginning of the seventeenth century. Women were second class citizens and still considered chattels. We hadn't even seen the likes of Jane Austen yet.
> 
> Mind you there are still maen around today who lose all reasond and objectivity if they think their manhood has been assaulted. I'm not excusing or justifyig Otello's behaviour, just saying it's not that unusual, and certainly wouldn't have been in 1603.


This may be the nearest we can come to objectivity in understanding how this fictional character can be credible. We can read things into him based on clues in the plot and text, but about the world in which the story takes place we have actual knowledge. There's no way to count the number of wives killed by their jealous husbands through history and around the world, but it seems a safe guess that in cultures where women are considered the property of men it happens more often, and to less disapproval, than we want to think.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> PS. Can we no longer edit once we post?


I think the edit function expires afer a certain length of time, as it always did in the old format, but I don't know how long the editing window lasts. Hours, at least. Maybe a day.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> PS. Can we no longer edit once we post?


Yes. Click on the three dots in the top right hand corner of your post.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

None.

What am I doing in an opera thread? Slinks quietly away ........


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

haziz said:


> Slinks quietly away ........


........ to a Bruckner thread


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Just as an aside on the subject of Othello, it's interesting to compare Shakespeare's treatment of the story and his characterizations with his source, Cinthio's "Un Capitano Moro".


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ScottK said:


> Shakespeare and racism is not something I have a well thought out point of view on. But a friend who loves Shakespeare, and has thought about Shakespeare and antisemitism, believes Merchant of Venice to be deeply antisemitic and of course he's not alone. I've wondered about the character Otello and racism but not formed a conclusion I would put down here. If anyone had an opinion and set off another thread about it, I'd be a willing reader.


Shakespeare addapted Othello from an Italian novel, which certainly was racist. See the wikipedia article on Shakespeare's Othello, sub-chapter Sources: 

"_Othello_ is an adaptation of the Italian writer Cinthio's tale "Un Capitano Moro" ("A Moorish Captain") from his _Gli Hecatommithi_ (1565), a collection of one hundred tales in the style of Boccaccio's _Decameron. 
..._ 
Cinthio drew a moral (which he placed in the mouth of Desdemona) that it is unwise for European women to marry the temperamental men of other nations. Cinthio's tale has been described as a "partly racist warning" about the dangers of miscegenation."

So I guess, Shakespeare made the story less racist than it was originally.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I am somewhat intriqued by Leonora in il Trovatore. She was the queen's lady, Manrico was a gypsy, and gypsies were excomunicated in Spain at the time, hiding in the mountains. (I hope I am correct, I am writing from memory, because I attended a lecture on Roma/Gypsies history). So what were her plans ? Would she have married him ? The whole libretto suggest she is simply a young stupid girl. Also taking the poison before Manrico is even free - what could go wrong ? But still, once I saw the interpretation with Barbara Frittolli, where Leonora appears mature, it felt like a better fit, with the music and all.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Otello is a moor, arabian rather than black. But it doesn't change anything, at least much. 
Moors left considerable legacy in Europe, especially in Spain, Portugal and Sicily. We can't imagine following Spanish culture without them. Several centuries Moors, Jews and Spanish lived and worked together despite all the wars between spanish and arabian kings. Mixed marriages were unlikely to occur, another religion was an obstacle. But after Reyes Catolicos everything changed, Moors and Jews were oppressed, coerced to baptize or exiled. It was Venezia where many of them found home and job. Otello, for example, was employed as condotier. 
Technically he wasn't "black", but of course was a man of another race. And he could suspect much more disdain and disregard from the "white majority" than they actually showed or even felt. Probably, the most didn't care about him, but any occasional look or word could cause unneeded thoughts in his head. So, when Iago appears, he turns Otello in his net like a sprat. 
I must say, he was very sensitive for a condotier. 
Poor Desdemona, murdered in vain, is an ultimate opera heroine: a decisive woman, who has sacrificed much more than any man could do for her. They are alike with Leonora. But she got a foreign military man unable to control his anger and just listen to her instead of a musician skilled in fencing, reputedly gipsy.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I am somewhat intriqued by Leonora in il Trovatore. She was the queen's lady, Manrico was a gypsy, and gypsies were excomunicated in Spain at the time, hiding in the mountains. (I hope I am correct, I am writing from memory, because I attended a lecture on Roma/Gypsies history). So what were her plans ? Would she have married him ? The whole libretto suggest she is simply a young stupid girl. Also taking the poison before Manrico is even free - what could go wrong ? But still, once I saw the interpretation with Barbara Frittolli, where Leonora appears mature, it felt like a better fit, with the music and all.


I'm not sure I agree that the *Trovatore* Leonora is that interesting. She is one of those stock female characters from Romantic fiction, a bored, entitled aristocrat, who hankers after a more exciting life with a vagabond or gypsy. They litter the fiction and stage works of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, right up to the operettas of Lehar (*Ziegeunerliebe*). She is first cousin of the Leonora of *La Forza del Destino*, but, this being much later in Verdi's canon, the Forza Leonora is a much more rounded character. Of course the later Leonora is having to deal with the guilt of her father's accidental murder, an event she not only witnessed, but in some ways precipitated. The Trovatore Leonora has no such trauma. Admittedly she has some glorious music to sing, but I don't find her as well drawn a character as, say, Violetta, Gilda, Lady Macbeth or even Desdemona.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> Shakespeare addapted Othello from an Italian novel, which certainly was racist. See the wikipedia article on Shakespeare's Othello, sub-chapter Sources:
> 
> "_Othello_ is an adaptation of the Italian writer Cinthio's tale "Un Capitano Moro" ("A Moorish Captain") from his _Gli Hecatommithi_ (1565), a collection of one hundred tales in the style of Boccaccio's _Decameron.
> ..._
> ...


Though race is certainly a contrubutor to the tragedy of Shakespeare's play and also therefore of Verdi's opera, I don't see anything inherently racist in the text. Indeed the character of Otello is most sympathetically presented. There was a time in the West when black characters were generally presented as evil or bad (Monostatos anyone?) but here it is the white man, Iago, who is the personification of evil. Otello's main character flaw is his gullibility.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> This is not 2022. Otello takes place probably at the beginning of the seventeenth century. Women were second class citizens and still considered chattels. We hadn't even seen the likes of Jane Austen yet.
> 
> Mind you there are still men around today who lose all reason and objectivity if they think their manhood has been assaulted. I'm not excusing or justifying Otello's behaviour, just saying it's not that unusual, and certainly wouldn't have been in 1603.


Even Austen hadn't success compared to her posthumous fame in her lifetime. 
In XVI century there was at least one female painter with successful international carrier, Sofonisba Anguissola (there were others, but less prolific, or more local or shadowed by their husbands). There were also some poets and writers. In following there were more, but trend was the same, unfortunately. As for women in politics, they were always present, but mostly as grey eminence. Caterina Sforza and Caterina Médici were exceptions.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ColdGenius said:


> Even Austen hadn't success compared to her posthumous fame in her lifetime.
> In XVI century there was at least one female painter with successful international carrier, Sofonisba Anguissola (there were others, but less prolific, or more local or shadowed by their husbands). There were also some poets and writers. In following there were more, but trend was the same, unfortunately. As for women in politics, they were always present, but mostly as grey eminence. Caterina Sforza and Caterina Médici were exceptions.


And many women writers (George Eliot, the Brontes) had to use male names to have their works accepted. Indeed when *Jane Eyre *was first published as being by one Currer Bell, there was some speculation as to the sex of the writer, but one critic shut everyone down by declaring that it must have been written by a man as no woman could ever feel as Jane does. Such passages as this 



> I am not talking to you now through the medium of custom, conventionalities, nor even of mortal flesh: it is my spirit that addresses your spirit; just as if both had passed through the grave, and we stood at God's feet, equal — as we are!”


were considered quite shocking for a woman to utter.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not sure I agree that the *Trovatore* Leonora is that interesting. She is one of those stock female characters from Romantic fiction, a bored, entitled aristocrat, who hankers after a more exciting life with a vagabond or gypsy. They litter the fiction and stage works of the nineteenth and early twentieth century, right up to the operettas of Lehar (*Ziegeunerliebe*). She is first cousin of the Leonora of *La Forza del Destino*, but, this being much later in Verdi's canon, the Forza Leonora is a much more rounded character. Of course the later Leonora is having to deal with the guilt of her father's accidental murder, an event she not only witnessed, but in some ways precipitated. The Trovatore Leonora has no such trauma. Admittedly she has some glorious music to sing, but I don't find her as well drawn a character as, say, Violetta, Gilda, Lady Macbeth or even Desdemona.


In my turn, let me disagree that Leonora is uninteresting. Her aristocratic bore, her reluctance to marry Di Luna are present. But her wish to follow the trouveur is more than a whim. And music helps her to show it and us to overcome oddity of the libretto. She mistakes Manrico for an enigmatic Hidalgo probably in exile, and when it emerges that he is Gypsy's son (at least by education; how many times Azucena changed babies?), she only exclaims "Ah". We know what she sings further. So she's more complicated than just a romantic girl determined to die. 
This discussion reminded me about Bianca Cappello. She was a venetian noblegirl who had an affair with a man of more modest ancestry. When their liaison was on the brink of revealing, they ran away and had to hide out. They settled in Florence, where this romantic fairytale ended as it should: both grew cold, had a bore and didn't know how to stop it. She became a concubine and lately a wife of Duke de Médici. (Following events could become a material for two romantic operas, but it's another story). 
P. S. There is a nice Museum of romanticism in Madrid. There are two small satirical paintings, "Romantic suicide" and "Romantic suicide because of love". I can't remember the author.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Though race is certainly a contrubutor to the tragedy of Shakespeare's play and also therefore of Verdi's opera, I don't see anything inherently racist in the text. Indeed the character of Otello is most sympathetically presented. There was a time in the West when black characters were generally presented as evil or bad (Monostatos anyone?) but here it is the white man, Iago, who is the personification of evil. Otello's main character flaw is his gullibility.


It seems like Shakespeare used a racist source, removed the racist message and emphasized the idea, how somebody can be manipulated by a psychopath. Yet, somebody from the 21. century, who does not know the background, may wonder, why Othello is of different ethnicity at all. Did you notice the current "political correctness" debate, whether the opera characters should wear the dark make-up for playing a different race ? Is it justified for Otello ? In spite of Shakespeare's humanist attitude, Othello would not score zero on racism scale for somebody from PC culture. (But scoring zero on racism within PC culture is generally hard  )


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Though race is certainly a contrubutor to the tragedy of Shakespeare's play and also therefore of Verdi's opera, I don't see anything inherently racist in the text. Indeed the character of Otello is most sympathetically presented. There was a time in the West when black characters were generally presented as evil or bad (Monostatos anyone?) but here it is the white man, Iago, who is the personification of evil. Otello's main character flaw is his gullibility.


I think Othello's main character flaw is jealousy and possessiveness stemming probably from self-esteem issues which in turn stem from his "outsider" status (I don't think color has much else to do with it). This jealousy is what creates the gullibility. Shakespeare was a keen psychologist.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I am also not sure, if Othello is so gullible. How many of us expect our aquaintances to blattantly lie (like the invented story about Cassio speaking from his dream and doing leg movements) and misplace handkerchiefs ? I mostly assume people around me to have basic decency and I expect lies only in specific contexts like marketting, alternative medicine, car sales, politics, or covering up infidelity.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> It seems like Shakespeare used a racist source, removed the racist message and emphasized the idea, how somebody can be manipulated by a psychopath. Yet, somebody from the 21. century, who does not know the background, may wonder, why Othello is of different ethnicity at all. Did you notice the current "political correctness" debate, whether the opera characters should wear the dark make-up for playing a different race ? Is it justified for Otello ? In spite of Shakespeare's humanist attitude, Othello would not score zero on racism scale for somebody from PC culture. (But scoring zero on racism within PC culture is generally hard  )


Shakespeare doesn't preach, at least in this case. He can preach on occasion on the dangers of government instability due to usurpation, but for the most part Shakespeare just imagines and observes at the personal level.

I know that Olivier's film version of Othello from the 60s is in deep disfavor on "blackface" grounds, but I really don't want to get into political stuff.


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## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

One more thought, and sorry to crib a little here...but paraphrasing the introduction to the play in the Pelican Shakespeare, in a line that really resonated with me: the play is about the vulnerability of love to an attack from hate. You get the feeling that Othello and Desdemona could've lived happily ever after if they had just been left alone.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> I am also not sure, if Othello is so gullible. How many of us expect our aquaintances to blattantly lie (like the invented story about Cassio speaking from his dream and doing leg movements) and misplace handkerchiefs ? I mostly assume people around me to have basic decency and I expect lies only in specific contexts like marketting, alternative medicine, car sales, politics, or covering up infidelity.
> [/QUOTE.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

BBSVK said:


> I am also not sure, if Othello is so gullible. How many of us expect our aquaintances to blattantly lie (like the invented story about Cassio speaking from his dream and doing leg movements) and misplace handkerchiefs ? I mostly assume people around me to have basic decency and I expect lies only in specific contexts like marketting, alternative medicine, car sales, politics, or covering up infidelity.


Shakespeare specializes in gullible men. In the Scottish play Duncan tells everybody around him how easy it is to see How trustworthy McBeth is. King Lear makes a show Of displaying all that he cannot see in two of his daughters...things that every single person in the audience can see.. Otello never for a second ways out the qualities he knows Desdemona to possess - qualities he rapturously sang about earlier in the evening - Vs what he knows of honest Iago’s nature. And for myself… I believe that with Just about all of us, when our insecurities start to come into play, the truth can start to be a malleable thing[/QUOTE]


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Yabetz said:


> Shakespeare doesn't preach, at least in this case. He can preach on occasion on the dangers of government instability due to usurpation, but for the most part Shakespeare just imagines and observes at the personal level.
> 
> I know that Olivier's film version of Othello from the 60s is in deep disfavor on "blackface" grounds, but I really don't want to get into political stuff.


Orson Wells' and Sergey Bondarchuk's versions contain dark makeup too.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Deleted


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I kind of regret bringing up the make-up. The topic was raging on my facebook for several days. So forget this part of my contribution if you can.

I looked into Il Trovatore again, and the outlook for Leonora if she survived and got married seemed better than I thought. Manrico, regardless of his upbringing, was working in the service of a nobleman at the time, so they would not have to hide like outcasts. Still not great for a former lady in waiting of the queen, but perhaps acceptable. What a pity the aristocrat was not doing well in the war.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Iago is a nihilist. His destruction of Otello, nominally motivated by revenge for not being given the position he thinks he deserves, is a game from which he gains nothing but, presumably, a momentary sense of power and validation. I'm inclined to think that his dramatic "credo," in which he declares loudly his lack of belief in anything positive, is a little melodramatic and a concession to operatic convention, musically superb though it is, but with or without it he exudes the dark, unsettling power of a psyche uninhibited by conscience. Though Shakespeare provides the dramatic material here, the power of opera relies on music much more than on words, and it's Verdi's powers as a composer that make Iago one of opera's greatest villains.


The director of Opera Australia believes that Boito wrote the music for Iago's credo and gave it to Verdi. He enumerates many compelling reasons for this, which I don't have time to list. It is certainly magnificent music.


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## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm interested that Don Carlo is so applauded here. For me, the most fascinating character in that opera - perhaps my favourite Verdi opera, though I can waver on that depending on what I am listening to - is King Philip. His scene with the Grand Inquisitor is simply magnificent. Philip is at once tortured and impotent, yet nearly all-powerful as the monarch. A powerful dramatic singer with the full range of emotional conviction such as Ferruccio Furlanetto is just about as good as opera gets.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> The director of Opera Australia believes that Boito wrote the music for Iago's credo and gave it to Verdi. He enumerates many compelling reasons for this, which I don't have time to list. It is certainly magnificent music.


Odd theory. It certainly piques my musical curiosity, since I hear nothing in the music out of keeping with Verdi's late style. In fact, it seems a very clear representation of it in its melodic style, harmony and orchestration. Boito wrote some fine music, but is any of it as good as this? I'm inclined to doubt that the secret could have been kept for so long.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Interesting responses, from so many! Yes, indeed, the CHARACTERS of a Verdi opera DO matter, so very much, it's certain. I like what "Steatopygous" mentioned, about Don Carlos, and no doubt that THAT opera & character (Don C, himself) should be investigated, more. ... Well, at the same time, the character/vocal abilities of the great SINGERS of Verdi operas, can also make a crucial difference in how we affirm ... or reject ... certain of the "written" characters, also. No need to mention Caruso, Rethberg, Ponselle, Martinelli, Bjorling and many others, I suppose, along THAT line - eh?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I kind of regret bringing up the make-up. The topic was raging on my facebook for several days. So forget this part of my contribution if you can.
> 
> I looked into Il Trovatore again, and the outlook for Leonora if she survived and got married seemed better than I thought. Manrico, regardless of his upbringing, was working in the service of a nobleman at the time, so they would not have to hide like outcasts. Still not great for a former lady in waiting of the queen, but perhaps acceptable. What a pity the aristocrat was not doing well in the war.


If I'm honest, I don't find any of the characters in *Il Trovatore *that interesting, apart from Azucena perhaps. It has always seemed to me that they are more operatic archetypes, the noblle heroine, the Byronic hero and the tortured villain, though Verdi's magnificent music really brings them alive. Unlike the other two operas of the triumvirate that ushered in Verdi's middle period (*Rigoletto *and *La Traviata*) the opera itself harks back to the style of his early, galley operas, though his melodic genius lifts it above them. Both Rigoletto and La Traviata find Verdi more able to break with convention and the two leading characters are also much more complex and drawn with greater detail.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

89Koechel said:


> Interesting responses, from so many! Yes, indeed, the CHARACTERS of a Verdi opera DO matter, so very much, it's certain. I like what "Steatopygous" mentioned, about Don Carlos, and no doubt that THAT opera & character (Don C, himself) should be investigated, more. ... Well, at the same time, the character/vocal abilities of the great SINGERS of Verdi operas, can also make a crucial difference in how we affirm ... or reject ... certain of the "written" characters, also. No need to mention Caruso, Rethberg, Ponselle, Martinelli, Bjorling and many others, I suppose, along THAT line - eh?


Both Carlo and Philip, and their dysfunctional relationship, are surely at the heart of the opera. Of all Verdi's characters, I think they can lay clam to being the most complex and therefore the most human.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> I'm interested that Don Carlo is so applauded here. For me, the most fascinating character in that opera - perhaps my favourite Verdi opera, though I can waver on that depending on what I am listening to - is King Philip. His scene with the Grand Inquisitor is simply magnificent. Philip is at once tortured and impotent, yet nearly all-powerful as the monarch. A powerful dramatic singer with the full range of emotional conviction such as Ferruccio Furlanetto is just about as good as opera gets.


I will go as far as to say that for me Don Carlo is the weakest and whiniest character in the opera. 
A good case could be made for the Grand Inquisitor as well as Philippe. But then the grab of religious fervor is so strong with the blind man that his thinking is not rational, whereas Philippe is a miasma of emotions at odds with each other.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I will go as far as to say that for me Don Carlo is the weakest and whiniest character in the opera.
> A good case could be made for the Grand Inquisitor as well as Philippe. But then the grab of religious fervor is so strong with the blind man that his thinking is not rational, whereas Philippe is a miasma of emotions at odds with each other.


You don’t have much time for characters with emotional and mental health problems do you? I seem to remember you having similar problems with Werther, whereas I find both he and Carlo absolutely fascinating. I feel for them and their insecurities. I agree that Carlo is a weak character, but is it at all surprising, given his stunted upbringing? His father is likewise flawed, also weak and at the mercy of the church. It is the dysfunction that makes them interesting. “Whiney” is an unusual choice of word. I wouldn’t use it for either of them. As an actor, I’d much prefer to play characters like them than stock operatic heroes.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I just remember a little story from our family. My great grandfather (from the village) visited my grandfather in the town. The family was very religious, my grandfather later became a minister. Anyway, he took the great grandfather to opera. They played La Traviatta. He was very moved and completely identified himself with... the father Germont. He spoke how unhappy he would be, if any of his sons lived with the courtesan. But he also appreciated, that Violetta agreed to break up. I am so immersed in the 21. century, that I never identified with Giorgio Germont. But for some people, he apparently felt very real.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I just remember a little story from our family. My great grandfather (from the village) visited my grandfather in the town. The family was very religious,my grandfather later became a minister. Anyway, he took the great grandfather to opera. They played La Traviatta. He was very moved and completely identified himself with... the father Germont. He spoke how unhappy he would be, if any of his sons lived with the courtesan. But he also appreciated, that Violetta agreed to break up. I am so immersed in the 21. century, that I never identified with Giorgio Germont. But for some people, he apparently felt very real.


I doubt Verdi's intention (or Piave's or Dumas's for that matter) was that the audience should side with Germont, though they would certainly appreciate and understand his moral stance. I don't know if you know the slightly later novel, _Tess of the D'Urbervilles _by Thomas Hardy, about a young woman who ends up becoming the mistress of a rich man. It is a tragic tale of her downfall, which Hardy subtitles, _The Story of a Pure Woman_. It is clear where our sympathies should lie.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> You don’t have much time for characters with emotional and mental health problems do you? I seem to remember you having similar problems with Werther, whereas I find both he and Carlo absolutely fascinating. I feel for them and their insecurities. I agree that Carlo is a weak character, but is it at all surprising, given his stunted upbringing? His father is likewise flawed, also weak and at the mercy of the church. It is the dysfunction that makes them interesting. “Whitney” is an unusual choice of word. I wouldn’t use it for either of them. As an actor, I’d much prefer to play characters like them than stock operatic heroes.


"Whitney?" I assume you mean whiny. 
Yes I do think of Don Carlo as whiny (Werther too -- even worse.). And it is also likely true that his upbringing caused his problems (as Philippe's did for him), but for me it doesn't necessarily produce an interesting character. At least not as written in this opera. I don't even think we actually see that much of Carlo except when he is being "protected" in some way by Posa as in his clandestine meeting with Elisabetta, his garden scene with Eboli, and once again when Posa takes his sword from him at the bequest of the King.
On the other hand, I find Philippe a fascinating character. He's like a push/me-pull/you doll.
It seems he has envy of his son and perhaps consciously choses Elisabetta to spite his son. 
He's not a strong king -- he is too willing to allow others to take the wheel, like Posa, The GI, and even Eboli. He sees his son getting in his way and would like to get rid of him but out of mean-spiritedness refuses to allow him to leave and go to Flanders. 
Whatever reasons he and his son have for disdaining each other is not made clear (at least not to me) except perhaps from envy of Posa's love for Carlo, and Elisabetta's love for Carlo -- the one thing he wants from both and cannot have.

And I would just like to add that I do not think it is really true that I don't have much time for characters with mental and emotional problems. I certainly think Eleazar is an example. I have plenty of sympathy for Otello yet I find him weak in many ways. It simply depends upon the character.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I doubt Verdi's intention (or Piave's or Dumas's for that matter) was that the audience should side with Germont, ...


I am sure Verdi meant something else. He was processing how the people did not accept Giusepina Strepponi and felt like Violetta was similar to her. (But he could have saved both himself and her some trouble, if he married her earlier than he did !)


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

It's just Don Carlo who always seemed to me a stock opera character, at least ultraromantic: hopelessly in love, not too clever, gloomy, impetuous. (He competes in this sense with marques de Posa, sometimes I suspect he sings baritone by misunderstanding). Libretto exposes his abnormal relationship with father, but not his illness, not mincing a matter. 
Schiller wrote his drama without historical accuracy, drawing inspiration from the black legend rather than historical sources. After it's transformation to a libretto Felipe surprisingly suffered less than others, poor Elisabetta - Isabel got a romance with a stepson of her age, whom she barely got acquainted with, princess Eboli was imputed by some new adventures instead of her already rich with events biography.
Though it's one of my favorite operas, when I watch or listen to it, I can't help imagining historical characters behind operatic, as they are depicted on official portraits by Sanchez Coello - Anguissola - Pantoja de la Cruz. And whoever sings romantic and left wing oriented Don Carlos I see psychically unstable, to do it mildly, and rather unpleasant young man, who killed a horse and burned Alcázar.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> "Whitney?" I assume you mean whiny.
> Yes I do think of Don Carlo as whiny (Werther too -- even worse.). And it is also likely true that his upbringing caused his problems (as Philippe's did for him), but for me it doesn't necessarily produce an interesting character. At least not as written in this opera. I don't even think we actually see that much of Carlo except when he is being "protected" in some way by Posa as in his clandestine meeting with Elisabetta, his garden scene with Eboli, and once again when Posa takes his sword from him at the bequest of the King.
> On the other hand, I find Philippe a fascinating character. He's like a push/me-pull/you doll.
> It seems he has envy of his son and perhaps consciously choses Elisabetta to spite his son.
> ...


Yes, I've corrected the typo. Whiney is what I meant.

Whereas I agree with what you say about Philip, I disagree with your assessment of Carlo as merely weak and whiney. In any case, if he is whiney he has a lot to whine about and it's one of the reasons I think the Fontainbleau act is absolutely essential. This is when Carlo and Elisabeth meet for the first time, still under the misapprehension that they are to be married. Theirs is love at first sight, which is cruelly snatched away from them when, in the full glare of the public, they are informed that Elisabeth is now to be married to Philip. Both are devastated, but Elisabeth accepts her fate, where the slightly unhinged and impetuous (again something we learn about him in the Fontainebleau act) Carlo cannot. The next time they meet in the Queen's, their duet is brilliantly written for the two singers; she dignified and dutiful, he agitated and emotional, his emotions eventually becoming too much for him until he passes out. The historical figure was actually epileptic, so that also explains his collapse.

Carlo's relationship with Posa is also complicated. Is there a homoerotic element in his love for his friend? It's certainly possible, though the upright and noble Posa would no doubt be unaware of it. Posa wants to be more like his friend, but it's not in his nature.

Oh, how I love this opera. Such great music and endlessly fascinating characters.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

@Tsaraslondon you seem very well oriented in the romantic literature. Could you explain to me, what all the excitement about Ernani was about ? Both Verdi and Bellini wanted such opera, but Verdi was more persistent with the censors. Why ? Such a ridiculous subject... Also, there was some uproar at the premiere of Hugo's play.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> A companion piece to te Wagner one, though I doubt it'll get as many contributions.
> 
> Still Verdi and his librettists did create some very interesting characters, particularly in his middle to late period operas.
> 
> I'd nominate Rigoletto, Violetta, Simon Boccanegra, Fiesco, virtually everyone in *Don Carlo*, Otello and Iago for starters.


Yes, I agree totally with this!

😄

(btw I've been taking a break from TC, hoping to get back to it now.)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm not so sure that it is so unbelievable that Iago manages to dupe Otello. Otello is a warrior, a man who does his duty and probably cannot even conceive of duplicitousness or villainy in those he chooses to trust. "Onesto Iago," he calls Iago near the beginning of the opera and this simple statement no doubt informs his attitude to him from the start. I don't think it's that unusual. I was basically brought up to be kind and considerate to others and to believe in the basic decency of people. I may be an old cynic now, but it wasn't always so and I know I've been guilty of misplacing trust in the past. An arch manipulator, like Iago, probably wouldn't have that much trouble making Otello believe him. Otello might be a easy target, but it stems from his own basic goodness and honesty.


I agree with both you and Woodduck on Iago. Shakespeare and Verdi probably wouldn't have used the word, but in Iago they were portraying a typical psychopath. His actions are straight out of the cluster B playbook. It's interesting that someone has compared him to Scarpia upthread, who's another portrayal of the malign cluster B personality type.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Odd theory. It certainly piques my musical curiosity, since I hear nothing in the music out of keeping with Verdi's late style. In fact, it seems a very clear representation of it in its melodic style, harmony and orchestration. Boito wrote some fine music, but is any of it as good as this? I'm inclined to doubt that the secret could have been kept for so long.


I'm thinking of the Credo compared with the arias Boito wrote for Mefistofele in his opera of that name and they are all tuneful arias rather than the scena like monologue that is the Credo. I'm not convinced by this hypothesis at all. Perhaps Boito could have written the Brindisi, but there's no reason for Verdi to have used another's music and he was so single minded I can't imagine him having ever done so.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> @Tsaraslondon you seem very well oriented in the romantic literature. Could you explain to me, what all the excitement about Ernani was about ? Both Verdi and Bellini wanted such opera, but Verdi was more persistent with the censors. Why ? Such a ridiculous subject... Also, there was some uproar at the premiere of Hugo's play.


I've never read Hugo's _Hernani _nor seen it, mind you not many have. When it was first staged in 1830, a war was being waged in France between the Classicists, led by the Académie Française and the Romanticists. The Classicists had very strict rules for stage drama, that there should be unity of time, place and action.

Unity of time referred to the need for the entire action of the play to take place in a fictional 24-hour period
Unity of place meant that the action should unfold in a single location
Unity of action meant that the play should be constructed around a single 'plot-line', such as a tragic love affair or a conflict between honour and duty.
_Hernani _was the first play to be staged in France which broke with these conventions and is often seen therefore as the harbinger of the Romantic movement, Berlioz being one of those who defended Hugo. People obviously cared more about these things then than they do now and the play caused rioting in the streets, though it is largely forgotten today. The British, who had a long tradition of Shakespeare were no doubt bemused by the whole affair.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I've never read Hugo's _Hernani _nor seen it, mind you not many have. When it was first staged in 1830, a war was being waged in France between the Classicists and the Académie Française and the Romanticists. The Classicists had very strict rules for stage drama, that there should be unity of time, place and action.
> 
> Unity of time referred to the need for the entire action of the play to take place in a fictional 24-hour period
> Unity of place meant that the action should unfold in a single location
> ...


Wow, thanks ! They taught us these rules at school, but in the context of Greek tragedy. I didn't know people in France continued in Greek fashion for such a long time. I kind of imagined, the factions quarreled whether the plot is deeply moving or just stupid. But it was about the unity of time, place and action ! LOL !


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Hugo's Hernani must have been more successful outside France than it is today for Verdi to have accepted it as subject matter for an opera and it is indeed all but forgotten outside France. However, it is pretty regularly performed at the Commedie Francaise (which is where it was first performed and the riots happened). French speakers interested in opera should keep an eye on their programme as they have Le roi s'amuse, Lucrece Borgia and Moliere's Don Juan (related to the Mozart opera if not the exact source for it).

N.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> _Hernani _was the first play to be staged in France which broke with these conventions and is often seen therefore as the harbinger of the Romantic movement, Berlioz being one of those who defended Hugo. People obviously cared more about these things then than they do now and the play caused rioting in the streets, though it is largely forgotten today. The British, who had a long tradition of Shakespeare were no doubt bemused by the whole affair.


There is this excerpt from <Mozartian Undercurrents in Berlioz: Appreciation, Resistance and Unconscious Appropriation> by Benjamin Perl:
"...in Berlioz’s own words: ‘Moreover, Don Giovanni takes a share in the Romantic school, because of the drama’s subject matter and its Shakespearian conception’ (my emphasis). This remark remains unexplained, but we may guess that the ‘Shakespearian’ traits Berlioz discovers in Don Giovanni are probably the work’s discontinuous construction, leaving aside the traditional theatrical ‘unities’ of time and space, which were still the norm in the opera of Mozart’s time. Don Giovanni is in fact made up of a series of loosely connected scenes with no clear indication of the time that elapses between one and the next. The opera may be understood to be taking place within the span of one day and night, but just as easily (taking into account the building of the Commendatore’s monumental sculpture) some weeks may have elapsed between its introduction and the final scene. Another ‘Shakespearean’ trait he may be referring to is the mixture of genres – the comic and the tragic – in this opera. ..."


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Someone on facebook just gave an excellent historical background on Il Trovatore and which events in the opera (or preceding drama) have some real basis. Manrico was fictious, but Urgel, the king candidate, relied a lot on common people and their numbers. So it was plausible for a "nobody" like Manrico to attempt a military career for social mobility in his service. Unfortunately, Urgel failed to train his crowd properly. His opponent Ferdinand of Barcelona relied on nobility (like Luna) and the experienced armies. Also, the event from the opera is real, where Urgel forces capture the Castellar, but end up trapped and besieged there. (Frankly, I never noticed this happened in the opera.) The facebook post was public, so I will share the screen capture of the relevant part and credit Jonathan Ellis as the author of the text.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I agree with both you and Woodduck on Iago. Shakespeare and Verdi probably wouldn't have used the word, but in Iago they were portraying a typical psychopath. His actions are straight out of the cluster B playbook. It's interesting that someone has compared him to Scarpia upthread, who's another portrayal of the malign cluster B personality type.
> 
> N.


I really do not see Scarpia as a psychopath. He's just your run-of-the-mill mean spirited, power hungrry, sexual deviate, evil-intent person.
Now Claggart on the other hand -- there's your psychopath!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I really do not see Scarpia as a psychopath. He's just your run-of-the-mill mean spirited, power hungrry, sexual deviate, evil-intent person.
> Now Claggart on the other hand -- there's your psychopath!


Claggart doesn't have the charm of the psychopath!

Whether either character, if real, would be diagnosed as a psychopath is an unresolvable question. I would settle for labeling them antagonistic personality types.

N.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

*Macbeth*, *Rigoletto*, and *Otello* all have great interest for me. Of course it doesn't hurt that those are probably my favorite operas by Verdi. All three are tragic because of how they are manipulated into committing acts which they probably would never have contemplated otherwise.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

_duplicated post because of a forum glitch_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Claggart doesn't have the charm of the psychopath!
> 
> Whether either character, if real, would be diagnosed as a psychopath is an unresolvable question. I would settle for labeling them antagonistic personality types.
> 
> N.


That seems awfully mild. How about "lecherous sadist" for Scarpia? Clearly the infliction of pain turns him on, and he isn't just playing BDSM games. His ability to use women and enjoy their degradation may not in itself be psychopathic, but the complete lack of conscience certainly suggests it.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> That seems awfully mild. How about "lecherous sadist" for Scarpia? Clearly the infliction of pain turns him on, and he isn't just playing BDSM games. His ability to use women and enjoy their degradation may not in itself be psychopathic, but the complete lack of conscience certainly suggests it.


"Antagonistic personality types" is a catch all and would include mild toxicity right up to full on psychopathy. I certainly see a cluster B type personality for Scarpia. I will let others fight over the exact amounts of narcissism, sociopathy and/or psychopathy in the mix.

N.


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