# Definitive versions, anyone?



## Metairie Road (Apr 30, 2014)

This question was inspired by a comment from *superhorn* in another thread.



> But on CD, there is incredible diversity of repertoire, also in opera, chamber music etc . More than has ever extsed before on recordings.


Images of musicians covered in dust and cobwebs scouring ancient archives in an attempt to find anything that hasn't been recorded to CD yet. This is not a criticism, I know there's a wealth of good music that hasn't been recorded yet.

Good God yes, the amount of recorded classical music available today, even by an individual composer, is overwhelming, and a little confusing for someone as ignorant as me.

By way of an example, a search on-line revealed hundreds of different recordings (perhaps thousands, I didn't count them) of Gluck's opera Orpheus and Eurydice. I have neither the knowledge, resources, time nor inclination to listen to 250 recorded versions of Orpheus and Eurydice to find one that pleases my ear.

I know finding a 'definitive version' is all very subjective, and the answers may be more complex than I imagine (or hope). And what would constitute a 'definitive' version anyway? Is there a list I can consult?

The bottom line is, is there any such a thing as a 'definative' or 'ideal' version of any composers recorded work that would serve as a convenient starting point for a newcomer?

I think this is a situation unique to classical music.

I hope my question isn't too vague. I'm working on the principal that there's no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid answers - Stupid answers are acceptable however, if sufficiently amusing.

Best wishes
Metairie Road


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

There are numerous topic's about recordings, why start another one?


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2015)

Metairie Road said:


> [A] search on-line revealed hundreds of different recordings (perhaps thousands, I didn't count them) of Gluck's opera Orpheus and Eurydice. I have neither the knowledge, resources, time nor inclination to listen to 250 recorded versions of Orpheus and Eurydice to find one that pleases my ear.


Probably you've got it turned around. Probably you would find a recorded version that pleases your ear quite quickly. That is, while there are dogs out there, the OK to very good recordings, for any piece, probably outnumber the dogs. If you already know and like the work, then you've obviously already found one. If you don't already know the piece, then it probably doesn't matter which recording you start with. You don't know it, so you're not going to be able to tell, or to care, whether the recording is "definitive" or not.



Metairie Road said:


> Is there a list I can consult?


Hundreds, I am sure. Wouldn't you rather be listening to music, though? Consulting lists can be fun, so I've been told, but really. Do you have the knowledge, resources, time, or inclination to consult hundreds of lists?

And about that resources thing. There is so much free music available online. More than anyone could ever hope to listen to in a lifetime. I'd drop "resources" from that wee list of yours if I were you.



Metairie Road said:


> The bottom line is, is there any such a thing as a 'definative' or 'ideal' version of any composers recorded work that would serve as a convenient starting point for a newcomer?


The bottom line is that you're a newcomer. Any recording will do. Truly. "Definitive" is for people who know, or think they know, quite a lot already. Who have already auditioned dozens of recordings for themselves--being fans, you see, and so definitely having the time and the inclination to listen until they also have knowledge. For some of us, that knowledge that we have has indicated to us that there is no such thing as a definitive or ideal version, though most of us do have our favorites.

If we were to give you our favorites, though, you would have a list of hundreds of recordings. You realize that, don't you?



Metairie Road said:


> I think this is a situation unique to classical music.


You are correct. What is not unique however is what it means to be a newcomer. And what that means is that you are not going to be able to tell, or to care, whether a recording is any good or not. So start anywhere. It'll be fine.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

There are definitive versions of great works. These are the recordings that have stood the test of times and are often cited by many as the ideal recording, maybe not perfect, but ideal in many ways. But it comes to your preference. Even if you dislike a definitive recording, there would likely be many other recordings especially of the great works by the great composers. Beethoven symphonies to Verdi operas.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2015)

I use Presto Classical to help reduce the time spent on searching through the many "definitive" versions (which can only mean, according to ArtMusic's definition, that they were recorded before, say, 1970 - how much time do they need to be tested by?).

For example, for the Gluck you mention, Presto would have you consider

Bernarda Fink (Orfeo) Veronica Cangemi (Euridice), Maria Cristina Kiehr (Amor)
Freiburger Barockorchester & Rias Kammerchor, René Jacobs

or

RIAS-Kammerchor, Berliner Motettenchor (Günther Arndt) & RIAS-Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Ferenc Fricsay

or

Bejun Mehta (Orfeo), Eva Liebau (Euridice) & Regula Mühlemann (Amore)
Collegium 1704, Collegium Vocale 1704, Václav Luks


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Not really.

When someone brings up this issue I reference a post I submitted once: http://www.talkclassical.com/33829-multiple-recordings-same-symphony-3.html#post716294

Arkive music does a good job of recommending recordings. One can not go wrong purchasing one of their recommendations.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2015)

If you are a newbie, there are many ways you cannot go wrong. 

If you buy the first recording you see in a store, you cannot go wrong.
If you peruse some site or other and pick one of their recommendations, you cannot go wrong.

If you audition dozens of recordings for yourself, you cannot go wrong.

There is at least one way you can go wrong, however, spending a lot of time and energy chasing after things that don't exist. 

Truly. I still think my first thought was the best. Turn around. You're facing the wrong way. You want something that really and truly does not matter. Cannot matter to you, situated as you are. 

Listen to music. It's fun! I highly recommend it.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Metairie Road said:


> This question was inspired by a comment from *superhorn* in another thread.
> 
> Images of musicians covered in dust and cobwebs scouring ancient archives in an attempt to find anything that hasn't been recorded to CD yet. This is not a criticism, I know there's a wealth of good music that hasn't been recorded yet.
> 
> ...


I was much like you when I was wee baby only six months old and old through the Beethoven's symphonies off Masur/NYP [Dreadful recording for a first-timer or dreadful in general] from the Beethoven's Complete Works [Brilliant Classics].

Then I perused through few other recordings. Then I realized I probably would fail a double blind test. Let alone know which one is superior

I concentrated on the music.

Now I am a mere toddler, aged 3, who, of very limited set of works, has lots of knowledge about where he wants the work to go or which are his favorite. Otherwise, the only superiority I could find in recordings might be minute things and not the whole conception done by various artists as an experienced listener like some guy or realdealblues might.

That is not to say I don't revel myself in comparing artists' recordings of the same work repeatedly. In fact it is the first thing I do! 

To each to their own, however. I have a real artist fetish. I listen to music by artist which I realize is something which some consider strange and none follow but hey, I am unique! 

Too long; didn't read: Quit the comparing, start the music.


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## leroy (Nov 23, 2014)

A good starting point might be to read the book "The Life And Death Of Classical Music" by Norman Lebrecht. It lists the 100 "best" and 20 "worst" recordings and is a nice overview of the recording industry and the personalities who made it what it is today. But remember the "definitive" versions aren't always going to be the version you might like best, so always be happy with any version you do enjoy but be open to alternative recordings that you might enjoy even more


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## Tedski (Jul 8, 2015)

Metairie Road said:


> This question was inspired by a comment from *superhorn* in another thread.
> 
> Images of musicians covered in dust and cobwebs scouring ancient archives in an attempt to find anything that hasn't been recorded to CD yet. This is not a criticism, I know there's a wealth of good music that hasn't been recorded yet.
> 
> ...


Metairie, the Penguin Guide was the standard guide to the best recordings, for many many years. 2010 was the last year it was published in its well-known well-loved format. After that year, they cut the size to 1/3 the number of pages, and limit the listings to the top 1000 recordings, whereas the 2010 edition has 9,400.

A search of ebay turned up no 2010 editions, but there are several 2009 editions available at reasonable prices. Here's a link:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=penguin+guide+classical+recordings+2010&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xpenguin+guide+classical+recordings+2009.TRS0&_nkw=penguin+guide+classical+recordings+2009&_sacat=0

The Guide gives several recommendations for each work with brief explanations on what makes each special. I still use my 1984 edition, but I think I'll get one of these 2009 editions soon.


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## Lord Lance (Nov 4, 2013)

Another thing, *Metairie Road*. If there's anything experience and wisdom has taught me, it is this: "Definitive" performances are, to quote a dear, dear friend of mine, a social construct. For all practical purposes, you can onlyreach_ close_ to perfection.

Examples: Beethoven's Third Symphony off Karajan's 1980s Berliner Philharmoniker performance on DG
Beethoven's Fifth Symphony off Wand's live performance with Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin on Profil

Although, if you want the best, *the very best*_, _look no further than score-reading. Let the music come alive in your ears through your own wills and fancies. Best of all, none of that silly human error nonsense! :lol:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

leroy said:


> A good starting point might be to read the book "The Life And Death Of Classical Music" by Norman Lebrecht. It lists the 100 "best" and 20 "worst" recordings and is a nice overview of the recording industry and the personalities who made it what it is today. But remember the "definitive" versions aren't always going to be the version you might like best, so always be happy with any version you do enjoy but be open to alternative recordings that you might enjoy even more


If there is one place that I would definitely NOT start, it is with Norman Lebrecht!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If you are really just starting to listen to classical music, don't throw money at recordings right now. Hang out here, see what other people like, go to YouTube and Spotify, and listen, listen, listen. 

Things were different when I was young during the Pleistocene. There were only a few recordings available, if that many, of most major repertoire, and reading the reviews in a magazine like High Fidelity or Stereo Review (I enjoyed both) was enough to keep me current on what was available and potentially interesting. No one can keep up now, no matter what they do, so don't try. Just listen and don't worry that there might be a different recording of something you might prefer. That will all shake out over time, your tastes will develop, and first thing you know you'll be taking sides in the Callas vs. Sutherland wars. Not that I'd wish that on anyone.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I wan't around during the Pleistocene, but during the Pliocene, I often had to buy a recording just to hear the work. Either that or wait for my Classical radio station to play it. Times have changed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GreenMamba said:


> I wan't around during the Pleistocene, but during the Pliocene, I often had to buy a recording just to hear the work. Either that or wait for my Classical radio station to play it. Times have changed.


If you were around for the Pliocene, you were here for the Pleistocene. I can't blame you for forgetting it, though. It was too damned cold to think clearly. I couldn't wait for the Holocene to arrive and thaw the rubber belt in my turntable.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> If you were around for the Pliocene, you were here for the Pleistocene. I can't blame you for forgetting it, though. It was too damned cold to think clearly. I couldn't wait for the Holocene to arrive and thaw the rubber belt in my turntable.


I slept through the Pleistocene after drinking one too many wines during the Pliocene.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Those Pleistocene wines just did not age well. That was particularly true of the early late middle pleistocene vintages which were almost undrinkable after about 10,000 years.


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## Tedski (Jul 8, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> If you are really just starting to listen to classical music, don't throw money at recordings right now. Hang out here, see what other people like, go to YouTube and Spotify, and listen, listen, listen.


I concur with the suggestion to open a Spotify account and use the desktop app. Unlike other music streaming services, including the Spotify mobile app, their desktop version allows you to choose selections, start, stop, change, or replay what you just listened to, at will. And that is with the free account. With desktop Spotify, the only reason to upgrade to the premium version is to get rid of the ads.

Spotify has been invaluable to me for auditioning new-to-me music mentioned by members of this forum.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Also don't forget youtube it has many recordings uploaded there to sample in part or in full.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

We tend to get accustomed to the first recordings we hear of any given mastepiece , and then when we hear different ones , something may seem "not quite right" with the others we hear . 
This i only natural, and has happened to me more than a few times in the past . But once you hear enough variety of approaches to a given work, you tend to become more tolerant of different interpretations ; different tempi, different nuances, different overall expressive character . This is why there is no such thing as a "definitive " performance of a work .
Certain recordings have achieved the status of classics ; they may certainly be great , but there are others that are also great in their own way . For example, the Giulini Verdi Requien on EMI, the De Sabata/Callas Tosca on the same label, the Solti Ring on Decca , the Furtwangler/Falgstad Tristan, the Casals Bach cello suites , and so forth .
But I've always had a soft spot for the Solti Verdi Requiem on Decca , the first one I heard nearly 50 years ago ! , and there are other terrific Toscas conducted by Sinopoli, Karajan , Levine, Mehta,
and others , and the Karajan, Furtwangler,Levine, Barenboim, Boehm, Rings and other have alot going for them . Also the Trisatans by Karajan, Solti, Boehm, Kleiber jr, and others .
Rostropovich and many other great celists have also recorded marvelous Bach cello suites .
You can't really know a great masterpiece until you've heard different performances of it .


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

superhorn said:


> We tend to get accustomed to the first recordings we hear of any given mastepiece , and then when we hear different ones , something may seem "not quite right" with the others we hear .
> This i only natural, and has happened to me more than a few times in the past . But once you hear enough variety of approaches to a given work, you tend to become more tolerant of different interpretations ; different tempi, different nuances, different overall expressive character . This is why there is no such thing as a "definitive " performance of a work .
> Certain recordings have achieved the status of classics ; they may certainly be great , but there are others that are also great in their own way . For example, the Giulini Verdi Requien on EMI, the De Sabata/Callas Tosca on the same label, the Solti Ring on Decca , the Furtwangler/Falgstad Tristan, the Casals Bach cello suites , and so forth .
> But I've always had a soft spot for the Solti Verdi Requiem on Decca , the first one I heard nearly 50 years ago ! , and there are other terrific Toscas conducted by Sinopoli, Karajan , Levine, Mehta,
> ...


Very true. For me Barenboim's live performances of Beethoven's Piano Concerti with Staatskapelle Berlin are the gold standard.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Herrenvolk said:


> Very true. For me Barenboim's live performances of Beethoven's Piano Concerti with Staatskapelle Berlin are the gold standard.


Are you really serious?


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

You are right. It is trully sujective to choose "definit" version of a piece, especially for our amateurs. Judging a recorded performance requests various knowledge ranging from quite fundamental one (wrong notes, beats, live noises etc) to very professional one (compositional analysis). There are many ways to perform a piece rightly. We can choose what we prefer, but we can not say others are inadequate or not "ideal", unless we can get original ideas out of scores, which prove some versions to be wrong.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Are you really serious?


Why? Are they bad? I haven't gotten around to re-hearing them. Your mockery makes me doubt it. I'll have to listen to it again.

Thanks, Pugg.


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