# Should Military Music Be Preserved?



## Oxygen (Jun 11, 2019)

There was a German man on youtube named Karl Sternau. He uploaded very well-done piano arrangements of folk and military songs from all over Europe. His channel was taken down for "hate speech". Some of his videos did have German military marches, like Erika, as their focus. As far as I know, he has never expressed any of his own political views. He only shared music. Do you think there's any justification for this censorship? Is it cultural discrimination?

Here is an archive of his channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCINRHu9VUd6nTArL1sSWt5Q


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Not a subject of my interest, and I find such music generally horrible, but a quick look reveals that several of the first videos picture Nazi soldiers and the titles obviously glorify their various invasions and actions in other countries. The absence of comments can actually also be understood as facilitating Nazi propaganda. But one of his most used headlines for such videos on the main page is however SING WITH KARL, which is pretty telling and surely propagandistic. So you're supposed to sing along ... Did you overlook that?

EDIT: The provided material therefore may be problematical on this forum too.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

Much of the stuff the Nazis used was 'appropriated' from earlier times. Carl Teike wrote over 100 marches, but was dead before Hitler came to power. Johann Gottfried Piefke wrote Glory of Prussia & Königgrätzer Marsch. He was dead by 1885.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Also I checked some further websites, and obviously he is a favourite on German sites with a neo-Nazi vocabulary and influence. Plus some AfD fans.



david johnson said:


> Much of the stuff the Nazis used was 'appropriated' from earlier times. Carl Teike wrote over 100 marches, but was dead before Hitler came to power. Johann Gottfried Piefke wrote Glory of Prussia & Königgrätzer Marsch. He was dead by 1885.


Yes, but many of the postings on that site have very explicit Nazi content in texts and pictures.


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## Oxygen (Jun 11, 2019)

joen_cph said:


> a quick look reveals that several of the first videos picture Nazi soldiers and the titles obviously glorify their various invasions and actions in other countries.
> 
> Also I checked some further websites, and obviously he is a favourite on German sites with a neo-Nazi vocabulary and influence. Plus some AfD fans. Yes, but many of the postings on that site have very explicite Nazi content in texts and pictures.


The titles are just the names of the song. I don't see any glorification there. Should he rename them? You have to stretch quite a bit to label him a nazi or colonialist. People do similar things with soviet music. Are the uploaders communist? If somebody sings along to a tune used by the red army, are they communist?

As for how other people perceive this music and react to it, I don't see how it is relevant. Adults are responsible for their own actions and opinions. I don't believe they should be "protected from harmful influences". Removing these videos because they _might_ be propoganda doesn't seem justifiable to me.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Oxygen said:


> There was a German man on youtube named Karl Sternau. He uploaded very well-done piano arrangements of folk and military songs from all over Europe. His channel was taken down for "hate speech". Some of his videos did have German military marches, like Erika, as their focus. As far as I know, he has never expressed any of his own political views. He only shared music. Do you think there's any justification for this censorship? Is it cultural discrimination?
> 
> Here is an archive of his channel.
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCINRHu9VUd6nTArL1sSWt5Q


HORSESH%T 

"The cursed Frenchmen"
"The East needs protection from the wild Russians"

Stephen Miller called. He wants his uniform back!:scold:


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## Oxygen (Jun 11, 2019)

Room2201974 said:


> HORSESH%T
> 
> "The cursed Frenchmen"
> "The East needs protection from the wild Russians"
> ...


With what exactly do you disagree? The songs are called what the songs are called. I don't know German, so I wouldn't know. Karl has posted videos of Russian music as well as music from other slavic countries. This kind of reaction is silly and frightening.

I guess this is soviet propaganda? 
Яблочко / Yablochko/ Little Apple - Russian Sailor Dance


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Oxygen said:


> With what exactly do you disagree? The songs are called what the songs are called. I don't know German, so I wouldn't know. Karl has posted videos of Russian music as well as music from other slavic countries. This kind of reaction is silly and frightening.


The quotes I used are direct quotes from the songs.

History shows all too well what happens when people take this kind of gaslighting sitting down.

I have one simple rule I live by; if David Duke would like it, I'm 100% opposed. The fact that you aren't opposed, and that these are half your only posts in TC, suggest to me that you have no intention of adding positively to this forum, but have other designs.

Peddle it somewhere else!


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Room2201974 said:


> The quotes I used are direct quotes from the songs.
> 
> History shows all too well what happens when people take this kind of gaslighting sitting down.
> 
> ...


So if David Duke loves modern classical music you would hate it?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> So if David Duke loves modern classical music you would hate it?


I'm pretty sure that's not a real world option.:lol:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In such matters, I suggest remembering the words attributed to Voltaire: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

KenOC said:


> In such matters, I suggest remembering the words attributed to Voltaire: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."


I draw the line at fascism!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I am not enthusiastic about a world where you can tell me what I can and can't say.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I am not enthusiastic about a world where you can tell me what I can and can't say.


I'm less enthusiastic about a world in which fascism has a voice. But then again, I'm the son of an original Antifa fighter....and where that blood leads back to is 2 million shot in the back of the head by the Nazi's.

So call me crazy, but I think we can live without their "voice."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

As an Antifa partisan, the brownshirts of our day, I'm surprised you can rail against fascism. But enough said, I won't pursue this.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

KenOC said:


> As an Antifa partisan, I'm surprised you can rail against fascism. But enough said, I won't pursue this.


I'm an Antifa "partisian" because I don't believe in free speech for fascists? Yep, the fascists free speech sure worked out well for Europe didn't it?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

This guy with his YT channel calling himself Karl Sternau looks like a schmuck with his stupid uniform and Hitler hairstyle addressing his listeners in German.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Oxygen said:


> With what exactly do you disagree? The songs are called what the songs are called. *I don't know German, so I wouldn't know*. Karl has posted videos of Russian music as well as music from other slavic countries. This kind of reaction is silly and frightening (...)


I think it shows & I would suggest that you do further research, say on the titles, their content and the background history.

As time progresses, the horrors of WWII and the decades preceding it, tend to wane more into oblivion, especially among younger generations.

Btw., article 86a of the German Criminal Code forbids the distribution and public use of propaganda material of certain unconstitutional organisations, including Nazi ones. Exemptions exist though, for educational and other purposes. Using Nazi symbols is also forbidden.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2019)

Oxygen said:


> There was a German man on youtube named Karl Sternau. He uploaded very well-done piano arrangements of folk and military songs from all over Europe. His channel was taken down for "hate speech". Some of his videos did have German military marches, like Erika, as their focus. As far as I know, he has never expressed any of his own political views. He only shared music. Do you think there's any justification for this censorship? Is it cultural discrimination?
> 
> Here is an archive of his channel.
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCINRHu9VUd6nTArL1sSWt5Q


Well, the OP's thread title asks a general question, to which I say, 'yes'. We might wish it otherwise, but presently, countries need their armed forces, and there is a long tradition of music associated with them which is worth retaining.

Judging by the specifics of the OP, however, there is a different underlying question. This seems to be, "Should we retain *this* music where it is being used as propaganda for a particular brand of militarism?" That's a more difficult question. The notorious Horst Wessel Lied is a prime example of the problem, given the worldwide accessibility of music online.



> With the end of the Nazi regime in May 1945, the "Horst Wessel Song" was banned. The lyrics and tune are now illegal in Germany, with some limited exceptions. In early 2011, this resulted in a Lower Saxony State Police investigation of Amazon.com and Apple Inc. for offering the song for sale on their websites. Both Apple and Amazon complied with the government's request, and deleted the song from their offerings.[SUP][19][/SUP]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst-Wessel-Lied

[add] KenOC and I have disagreed previously on what 'freedom of speech' means. I'll disagree with him again, but acknowledge that notions of free speech are problematic. He is entitled to his view, and I'm not going to advocate that he shouldn't be allowed to propagate it!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I agree with Ken that free speech should be preserved. Focusing on stuff like this and identity politics is an indication many people have learned the wrong lessons about the war. They don't understand the real background, how people get manipulated and many are now becoming like the people they say they oppose. It was Nazis who burned books and censored speech. 

The so called 'privileged white male' today is to an extent getting demonized by some in similar ways the Jews were getting demonized in WWII.

Saying one draws the line at 'fascism' doesn't work in practice because who gets to define what is and isn't fascist? Who gets to define 'hate speech'? From my perspective clearly the most racist and fascist group in the U.S.A. today is the radical left.

Preserve the music. YouTube/Facebook/Google shouldn't be censoring anything. Those people are corrupt, insidious fascists with a destructive and hateful agenda. They use tools like racism to keep people divided and conquered and not focusing on the root causes of the problems in society. They don't want racism to end, they love it. The irony is today's radical left is essentially the same people as the Nazis under a different guise. 

Knowledge itself is not good or evil, knowledge is just knowledge. It is what one does with knowledge that can be good or evil. A lack of knowledge is a hallmark of a population being ruled over by tyrants.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2019)

tdc said:


> I agree with Ken that free speech should be preserved. Focusing on stuff like this and identity politics is an indication many people have learned the wrong lessons about the war. They don't understand the real background, how people get manipulated and many are now becoming like the people they say they oppose. It was Nazis who burned books and censored speech.
> 
> The so called 'privileged white male' today is to an extent getting demonized by some in similar ways the Jews were getting demonized in WWII.
> 
> ...


Only three words about the OP. The rest is overtly political, so I'm reluctant to enter into a discussion with you tdc, but there is much to challenge in what you say that has only tangential relevance to the music.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Ahhhhh yes, let us bow at the alter of "any free" speech. History would have us protect the right of the Einstatzgruppen captain's Lugar from "speaking" into the back of a Christian's head!

Who decides who are the fascists?????

What a silly question....fascists regimes have already been defined by the History of their actions. Spain, Italy, Germany, Japan......they ALL ACTED THUSLY:

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It's a thread about a YouTube channel. Not a head of state spewing fascist rhetoric. You're getting too worked up about this.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

KenOC said:


> As an Antifa partisan, the brownshirts of our day, I'm surprised you can rail against fascism. But enough said, I won't pursue this.


Vile false equivalence.



tdc said:


> The so called 'privileged white male' today is to an extent getting demonized by some in similar ways the Jews were getting demonized in WWII.


Vile false equivalence.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

tdc said:


> The so called 'privileged white male' today is to an extent getting demonized by some in similar ways the Jews were getting demonized in WWII.


This demands an answer.

I am a white male who grew up in a comfortable white home in a nice white town and went to well-funded white schools. Nonwhite people, of whose existence I was barely aware, lived in poor, segregated neighborhoods in "that other town," they attended inferior schools, they were seen in my environment only when they showed up for the low-paying jobs which were the only ones they could get, and among many of "my people" they went by nicknames such as "*****" and "**************."

I and the people among whom I grew up were not for the most part wealthy, but there's no question that, as comfortable white people on whom life seemed to impose no limits to our aspirations in society, we occupied a position of privilege. I was then, and I remain, a privileged white male. I am not "demonized" by those who have spoken to make me more aware of this, and your comparing my cultural position to that of the Jews in Nazi Germany is a shameful insult to them, as well as a dangerous "white"- washing of history.



> From my perspective clearly the most racist and fascist group in the U.S.A. today is the radical left...
> Those people are corrupt, insidious fascists with a destructive and hateful agenda. They use tools like racism to keep people divided and conquered and not focusing on the root causes of the problems in society. They don't want racism to end, they love it. The irony is today's radical left is essentially the same people as the Nazis under a different guise.


I don't know who you're referring to as the "radical left," but they are surely not the people painting swastikas on temples, mowing down congregations with AR-15s, threatening civil war, and chanting "Jews will not replace us."

I'd say your "perspective" needs a serious adjustment.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Conservatives haven't won a social battle in the United States and Europe since the 1950s. Everything socially has gone the way of the "left" or liberal (whatever these terms really mean, it's all at some surface level semantics) more or less, although neo-liberalism plays a big role in how most perceive things. 

So when you talk about mass shootings and some of the way things have declined since the 1950s, you have to look at this fact. 

For instance, the cheapening of the human images due to violence in media and games I don't see as coming from conservative social ideas but more liberal ideas doing away with "censorship."


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Conservatism in America is dead. Almost as dead as the "Republican" party of Lincoln, Sumner, Stevens, T. Roosevelt, Willkie, Dewey, Eisenhower, George Romney, William Scranton. The last real Conservatives--George Will, David Brooks, others--quit the Trump Party and its infatuation with New Russian fascism, racism, bigotry, glorification of The Leader, and the endless stream of lies. For more, come on down to The Political Groups where this conversation belongs.

There, I'll be glad to address the role of the National Rifle Association in destroying America's social cohesion.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I personally find the traditional military march a rather boring form of music. However, with reference to the video posted, I think the issue is less with the music itself than with the history associated with it and the views that often appear to be associated with it. The music itself? Fine, if that's your thing. The views that seem to accompany it in the video are much more problematic and I can understand why it was banned. No mainstream media company would want to associate itself with this sort of thing.


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## Duncan (Feb 8, 2019)

Whilst marching from Deutschland through Poland and into Russia it can be exhilarating...

Whilst retreating out of Russia back through Poland and returning to Deutschland - not so much...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Room2201974 said:


> Ahhhhh yes, let us bow at the alter of "any free" speech. History would have us protect the right of the Einstatzgruppen captain's Lugar from "speaking" into the back of a Christian's head!
> 
> Who decides who are the fascists?????
> 
> ...


Although I respect the examples you have given within their context, would you also agree that the vast majority of them could have applied to nations such as the German Democratic Republic?


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

elgars ghost said:


> Although I respect the examples you have given within their context, would you not also agree that the vast majority of them could also have applied to nations such as the German Democratic Republic?


The GDR and many others. Terms like "Fascism", "Communism" and many other -isms are, in my view, simply covers for the desire for control of an initially relatively small group of people who then seduce or intimidate others into their orbit over time. Sometimes whole nations. The label applied to it makes no difference, the root motivation is the same - the lust for power, money or often both. Corrupt authoritarianism is just that, whatever ideological camouflage it chooses to disguise itself.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

regenmusic said:


> For instance, the cheapening of the human images due to violence in media and games I don't see as coming from conservative social ideas but more liberal ideas doing away with "censorship."


the problem is that here in europe where we can have weapons simply as in america for all the violence in media and games we don't have even remotely the number of deaths that america has. Maybe because the problem are not videogames, but real weapons (and the NRA)


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Oxygen said:


> The titles are just the names of the song. I don't see any glorification there. Should he rename them? You have to stretch quite a bit to label him a nazi or colonialist. People do similar things with soviet music. Are the uploaders communist? If somebody sings along to a tune used by the red army, are they communist?
> 
> As for how other people perceive this music and react to it, I don't see how it is relevant. Adults are responsible for their own actions and opinions. I don't believe they should be "protected from harmful influences". Removing these videos because they _might_ be propoganda doesn't seem justifiable to me.


Having just looked at the site, I agree with Joan. One would have to be obtuse or disingenuous to claim that there is not a German Nationalist/Militarist subtext.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Room2201974 said:


> I'm less enthusiastic about a world in which fascism has a voice. But then again, I'm the son of an original Antifa fighter....and where that blood leads back to is 2 million shot in the back of the head by the Nazi's.


That does not even make sense, where does the 2 million number come from and your dad was what a WW2 vet?


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

To the OP, yes for historical interest. You start banning songs used by the Nazis, then next is Stalinist and Maoist tunes (both of which have an equally obnoxious population of Internet apologists) or what about 'Dixie'? Do we ban the first two Stanzas of the German national anthem?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Bwv 1080 said:


> That does not even make sense, where does the 2 million number come from and your dad was what a WW2 vet?


Yes, my dad was a vet, yes he killed fascists.

The Holocaust, consisting of the mass extermination of nearly 6 million Jews, was merely a portion of the total mass murder carried out at the hands of the Nazi's. That number is well past 20 million. The Skoda Works had to go 24/7 to keep up with the demands for 7.65 and 9 milimeter rounds.....German soldiers kept losing them.....in the back of people's skulls all over central and eastern Europe! So I have little tolerance for the "free speech" and propaganda that led to that human destruction. Melanoma thoughts are nothing more than melanoma thoughts. Hey, if that's what someone wants, have at it. But there are those who think it's foolish not to wear sun screen.

It's been my experience that the spectrum of opinion on this matter changes in direct proportion to the skin one has in the game.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Room2201974 said:


> Yes, my dad was a vet, yes he killed fascists.
> 
> The Holocaust, consisting of the mass extermination of nearly 6 million Jews, was merely a portion of the total mass murder carried out at the hands of the Nazi's. That number is well past 20 million. The Skoda Works had to go 24/7 to keep up with the demands for 7.65 and 9 milimeter rounds.....German soldiers kept losing them.....in the back of people's skulls all over central and eastern Europe! So I have little tolerance for the "free speech" and propaganda that led to that human destruction. Melanoma thoughts are nothing more than melanoma thoughts. Hey, if that's what someone wants, have at it. But there are those who think it's foolish not to wear sun screen.
> 
> It's been my experience that the spectrum of opinion on this matter changes in direct proportion to the skin one has in the game.


Ok, so most of us have parents / grandparents that were WW2 vets (and does it matter much if they killed Japanese fascists vs German ones?). I have a son who would have been killed under Aktion T4, so I guess that gives me a personal stake as well. But you don't censor history. German WW2 militaria has interest for legitimate historical reasons as well as a disreputable segment that ranges from harmless Wehrmacht fanboys to outright Nazis, but censorship won't eliminate those groups.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Ok, so most of us have parents / grandparents that were WW2 vets (and does it matter much if they killed Japanese fascists vs German ones?). I have a son who would have been killed under Aktion T4, so I guess that gives me a personal stake as well. But you don't censor history. German WW2 militaria has interest for legitimate historical reasons as well as a disreputable segment that ranges from harmless Wehrmacht fanboys to outright Nazis, but censorship won't eliminate those groups.


Ah yes, give fascists an opportunity to infect others, nothing bad could ever happen there. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled many, many times to restrict free speech. Not all speech is worthy of being protected.

So the difference is clear: You have no wish to prevent fascists propagating their thoughts to others, and I do.

Meanwhile, I'm smelling fishbait here, or maybe someone is jerking a Zara Spook, but Oxygen is mysteriously absent from these proceedings and this forum. Boy would I love to see his ISP. And because this thread feels so fishy.....I'm outta here!

A big lie keeps on burnin'
Fascist thoughts keep turnin'
Trollin', trollin', trollin' on a river
Trollin', trollin', trollin' on a river


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Room2201974 said:


> Ah yes, give fascists an opportunity to infect others, nothing bad could ever happen there. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled many, many times to restrict free speech. Not all speech is worthy of being protected.


But not in this case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Room2201974 said:


> So the difference is clear: You have no wish to prevent fascists propagating their thoughts to others, and I do.


Well, I wish I could only be so brave and noble ...


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## Oxygen (Jun 11, 2019)

Room2201974 said:


> Yes, my dad was a vet, yes he killed fascists.
> 
> The Holocaust, consisting of the mass extermination of nearly 6 million Jews, was merely a portion of the total mass murder carried out at the hands of the Nazi's. That number is well past 20 million. The Skoda Works had to go 24/7 to keep up with the demands for 7.65 and 9 milimeter rounds.....German soldiers kept losing them.....in the back of people's skulls all over central and eastern Europe! So I have little tolerance for the "free speech" and propaganda that led to that human destruction. Melanoma thoughts are nothing more than melanoma thoughts. Hey, if that's what someone wants, have at it. But there are those who think it's foolish not to wear sun screen.
> 
> It's been my experience that the spectrum of opinion on this matter changes in direct proportion to the skin one has in the game.


Well, I'd love to post, but my posts haven't been approved of or whatever, so nobody can see them. Two things: 1.Music, books, or any piece of writing cannot make a person become a fascist or murderer or rapist. A person becomes those things because they choose to. That is the basis of free society. A society where people are treated as individuals responsible for their own actions. I would like to live in such a society. I dislike any violation of that by people with a lot of power. Show me these court cases. 2.I'm jewish.


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