# Do you hate Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau?



## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Seems this most ubiquitous of baritones is not held in very high regard here. I wanted to start this poll to see where we stand on him as a forum.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

My favourite baritone, especially in the Lieder genre. His version of the three main Mahler song cycles and Schubert's Winterreise are desert island discs.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Art Rock said:


> My favourite baritone, especially in the Lieder genre. His version of the three main Mahler song cycles and Schubert's Winterreise are desert island discs.


Same here, and he was also wonderful in Bach. I have not ever seen any negative postings about the man's singing.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> My favourite baritone, especially in the Lieder genre. His version of the three main Mahler song cycles and Schubert's Winterreise are desert island discs.


I know you love Das Lied von der Erde and in particular Der Abschied (didn't you used to have its final lines in your signature?). It seems DFD saw this as something of a signature piece for him, and he's recorded it a bunch of times (at least three that I know of). Have you heard any of these recordings, and what do you think of them? For clarification, the ones I know are Kletzki/Philharmonia w/ Murray Dickie; Krips/Vienna Symphony w/ Fritz Wunderlich; and Bernstein/Vienna w/ James King.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Bulldog said:


> Same here, and he was also wonderful in Bach. I have not ever seen any negative postings about the man's singing.


Perhaps it's only really in the opera forum, but there are quite a few who dislike him or characterize his singing as "mannered".


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DFD was my intro into lieder and his Wotan was one of the first Wotans I ever heard. It was during a period when I yet couldn't hear anything wrong with it and thus got very used to his voice. His main problem in operatic, particularly Wagnerian repertoire, is that, for somer reason, he kept undertaking roles like Wotan and Sachs which weren't really fit for his somewhat lighter baritonal voice. He doesn't necessarily strike me as a bass-baritone (maybe bass-BARITONE would be better), which has also been called heldenbaritone. The helden part, the heroic quality, isn't there the same ways as it can be heard in Schorr's, Kipnis' or Hotter's voice.

Nevertheless, DFD was a very talented, musical interpreter and had an absurdly beautiful voice which is wonderful in lighter baritone roles, like Wolfram. He is imo one of the greatest Wolframs of the modern recording era: 



.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

This is by far the thing I like the most from him, Ponnelle's Figaro


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

flamencosketches said:


> Perhaps it's only really in the opera forum, but there are quite a few who dislike him or characterize his singing as "mannered".


He is mannered, or rather he became mannered very early on in his career. Some people like mannered, they think the mannerisms enhance the sense of the music. In opera he can roar. No-one likes that.

But there is something in a way more fundamental to think about with him. He introduced a style of lieder singing which is extremely nuanced. The colour of each and every syllable -- in fact the colour of each consonant and each vowel, each attack -- has been thought through. His approach is _studied_. That impacted people's expectations of lieder singing in the second half of the last century tremendously, for good and for bad.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I acquired this disc at the urging of PeterFromLA.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's an early Winterreise and a late one, so you can hear the change in approach


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

flamencosketches said:


> I know you love Das Lied von der Erde and in particular Der Abschied (didn't you used to have its final lines in your signature?).


Yes and Yes. 



> It seems DFD saw this as something of a signature piece for him, and he's recorded it a bunch of times (at least three that I know of). Have you heard any of these recordings, and what do you think of them? For clarification, the ones I know are Kletzki/Philharmonia w/ Murray Dickie; Krips/Vienna Symphony w/ Fritz Wunderlich; and Bernstein/Vienna w/ James King.


I have all three if I remember correctly (I'm in the gallery right now, can't look at the CD cabinets, and Mahler is still not fully done in my cataloging effort). The Bernstein is on the shortlist of personal favourites for any of the versions of DLVDE. But in general I still prefer the versions with alto.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

It seems an odd question to ask if people hate the voice of the most famous baritone in classical music history. I know, being a singer and a baritenor myself, he is the model for just about any non-tenor male singer while he was active and singing. I didn't care for his hectoring and liked other singers better but ... hate his voice? I don't think so.

Here is his Mondnacht from his famous 1974 video I've never been able to find ...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

larold said:


> I know, being a singer and a baritenor myself, he is the model for just about any non-tenor male singer while he was active and singing.


The way his approach dominated singing standards may well have put off many very fine singers from pursuing a career, because they wanted to adopt a different, less studied, less mannered, approach. Maybe he did more harm than good. Thankfully things have changed.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

The only recording I have have which I'm not totally happy with is Haitink's recording of Shostakovich's 14th symphony. DF-D seems to over-egg the pudding with his segments. I did wonder if it was due to this recording being sung in other languages rather than Russian (DSCH sanctioned a version of the 14th in which the singing is done in whatever language the original text came from) but I came to the conclusion that it's not the back-translations into the original languages having a derogatory effect on the work as a whole or that DF-D's own diction sounds out of place - he simply sounds too snappy and overwrought for my liking.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

*Do you hate Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau?*

Yes, along with his entire family, unto the last generation.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

Dietrich Fischer-Diskau is very good. They say that he had a voice like honey. I have recordings of him doing Schubert's _Wintereisse_ (w/Murray Perahia, piano), Schumann's _Dichterliebe_ (w/Vladmir Horowitz, piano), Mahler's _Song of the Wayfarer _and other lieder (w/Leonard Bernstein, piano), and songs by Shostakovich (w/Vladimir Ashkenazy as conductor and also pianist). DFD collaborated many times with Benjamin Britten, most notably on the _War Requiem_, and also made the dfinitive rendition of Barber's _Dover Beach_ with the Julliard Quartet, even though he mispronounced "French coast" and called it "French toast". Someone mentioned Fischer-Diskau doing the baritone version of _Das Lied von der Erde_ with James King and Leonard Bernstein, and a just as excellent alternative is the one he made with Josef Krips and the incredible Fritz Wunderlich.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

I get the criticism of the "mannered" style of Fischer-Dieskau, especially wrt Lieder, but his voice is too beautiful for me not to like it. In a recent video, David Hurwitz slammed the Lieder genre in general for being mannered and pretentious, and singled out Fischer-Dieskau and Schwartzkopf as particularly objectionable on these grounds. But as mentioned by other posters, some listeners like "mannered" or studied interpretations. There are baritones I like better than Fischer-Dieskau (Andreas Schmidt especially) who might be said to be less mannered, but more to the point they are mannered in different ways that appeal to me more. I think Fischer-Dieskau offers very interesting interpretations, though. I like his earlier work (up to the early 1960s) best, like his 1961 recording of _Die schöne Müllerin_ with Gerald Moore.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_The way his approach dominated singing standards may well have put off many very fine singers from pursuing a career, because they wanted to adopt a different, less studied, less mannered, approach. Maybe he did more harm than good. Thankfully things have changed._

I'd like to see any evidence of that statement being true since DFD had lots of famous students, "Among those former pupils who have established successful careers are Andreas Schmidt, Matthias Goerne, Christine Schäfer, Dietrich Henschel, Stella Doufexis, Christian Elsner, and Stephan Genz," according to https://www.mwolf.de/teacher.html. If you know anything about singing you know these are fabulous singers.

To watch DFD teach was to go beyond the notes. He didn't care much about technique, the thing that vocal teachers and coaches focus on ad nauseum today. He focused on interpretation -- promoting the message behind the words of the music especially in scores where the message wasn't obvious from the words like in Schubert's Die Winterreise.

It is also instructive to know DFD's students weren't all singers.

"His greatest achievement as an artist is maybe that he has given us an answer to the eternal question 'prima la musica vs prima le parole?' (music, or words first?)" one said. "He showed us that question in itself is false: in his interpretations he created a unity between text and music unlike few before or after him. He set the benchmark in enunciation and he emphasized key words through changing the sound of the note on which the word was sung."

Here is the whole story:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2012/may/21/dietrich-fischer-dieskau-daniel-barenboim


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

larold said:


> _The way his approach dominated singing standards may well have put off many very fine singers from pursuing a career, because they wanted to adopt a different, less studied, less mannered, approach. Maybe he did more harm than good. Thankfully things have changed._
> 
> I'd like to see any evidence of that statement being true since DFD had lots of famous students, "Among those former pupils who have established successful careers are Andreas Schmidt, Matthias Goerne, Christine Schäfer, Dietrich Henschel, Stella Doufexis, Christian Elsner, and Stephan Genz," according to https://www.mwolf.de/teacher.html. If you know anything about singing you know these are fabulous singers.
> 
> ]


It happened to a friend of mine's partner, now deceased, or at least that's the anecdote he used to recount when he was drunk at dinner parties to explain why he never had a successful song career, despite making one CD. Who can say what the truth is?!

When Mathias Goerne was younger I used to see him at the Wigmore Hall and I swear, it was Fischer Dieskau reincarnated! The last time I saw him was about 6 years ago now, and it wasn't the same, though still very refined singing.

I saw FiDi just once, some Britten songs, William Blake settings, with a strong German accent « leeetel fly . . . »


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I do not hate him as a person, nor do I necessarily “hate” his voice. But I find his vocal timbre incredibly irritating. Something about German baritones that can rub me the wrong way; I can’t stand Hans Hotter in his later years (like in the Solti Ring) either but I don’t find DFD’s voice attractive at any stage of his career.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I've seen/heard Goerne and Genz and neither had DFD's voiice. He didn't teach his voice. He taught singers how to interpret songs. These singers learned and had remarkable careers -- just like his other students. None of them sounded like him either but they continued his legacy. 

Before DFD most singers of lieder were happy to just have a nice tone and get the words out. DFD changed all that; he taught people the four distinct parties in Schubert's "Erlkonig" - a narrator, a father, a boy and th erlking (monster) -- requires different timbres and forms of declaration.

When Fritz Wunderlich sang lieder his voice was so beautiful no one cared that he didn't interpret the text. As is clear here DFD did not have a beautiful voice. He relied more on artistry and brain power and he taught that to continuing generations of singers. 

His influence is one reason so many singers today can tackle Winterreise with its demands for subtlety, word pointing and a technique that makes plain the obscure in Müller's text while plaintively interpreting Schubert's notes.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I know there are people who will hate D F-D for the simple reason that he was very successful in what he did and there are some people who cannot stand success. The successful person therefore becomes the victim of the 'tall poppy' syndrome where the small fry try to cut him down to size. D F-D made some marvellous recordings but for me he was better when he was younger and the voice was absolutely pristine. Later the voice lost that youthful quality and he became more mannered. I have got his last Wintereisse with Perahia and it is frankly tragic in its vocal decline. He would have been better sticking to live recitals by that stage. However, a wonderful artist and a fine singer.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I think that lack of vocal allure is a big reason people didn't like Fish Dish. Other than in his first recordings as a 20-something he never had a particularly lovely voice. I too wondered when I first started listening why he was so famous. If you check it out it becomes apparent without a lot of investigation: he just did things no one had ever done before. 

To me he was to lieder singing what Furtwangler was to conducting. Neither was well known for their beauty. They were known for their interpretations and the way they passed on their philosophy to younger people. Furtwangler trained Jascha Horenstein who became an equally visionary conductor. Daniel Barenboim, who loved DFD, was a Furtwangler acolyte. Other German conductors active now including Christian Thielemann continue to carry on Furtwangler's legacy just as Fischer Dieskau's former students carry on his legend.

I would never admonish anyone for not liking DFD's singing or even for "hating" his voice. People like what they like and they dislike what they don't.

Yet in all that one must recognize he stood taller than any other non-tenor among postwar 20th century male singers and he was the unquestioned champion of lieder during his career, being the first singer to record all Schubert's songs, a feat on a par with Dorati recording all the Haydn symphonies. His accomplishments, the way he influenced singing, and his teaching are what made him famous.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

OK, there is one role where I really like DFD - the baritone solos in Brahms’s German Requiem. He sounds vulnerable and poignant.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I didn't come to him through the normal channels. This was my first exposure, a Schubert collection with none of the most famous songs. This is where I first became aware of the intelligence of his singing mated to one of the greatest pianists that ever lived that showed me Schubert's piano parts were just as important as the sung part.

I went onto DFD's Bach after that and learned the Cantata BWV 56 through his advocacy. I like other singers in it better than him but he did for me what he's done for millions: showed them a way to read poetry through singing.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

larold said:


> cantata BWV 56


It's very good. I used to very much enjoy the way he sang BWV 4 too, _Christ lag in Todes Banden_, the way he sang the repeated hallelujas at the end of the verses is extraordinary, esp Hier ist das rechte Osterlamm.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do not hate him as a person, nor do I necessarily "hate" his voice. But I find his vocal timbre incredibly irritating. Something about German baritones that can rub me the wrong way; I can't stand Hans Hotter in his later years (like in the Solti Ring) either but I don't find DFD's voice attractive at any stage of his career.


I think individual tastes regarding vocal timbre are very interesting. That's one of the reasons I like vocal music. I wonder whether what you find unattractive in DFD's timbre is something tinny, or like a stiff membrane vibrating. That's a quality I detect in many German baritones. I've developed the idea that it is related to a typical vocal quality of the German speaking voice. IMV, speech communities have norms for vocal timbre; in production terms, for the postures and maneuvers of the larynx used in speech and singing. As a famous linguistic phonetician said, "There's more to speech than language."


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I do not hate him as a person, nor do I necessarily "hate" his voice. But I find his vocal timbre incredibly irritating. Something about German baritones that can rub me the wrong way; I can't stand *Hans Hotter in his later years (like in the Solti Ring)* either but I don't find DFD's voice attractive at any stage of his career.


That might not have so much to do with his timbre but with the fact he was just past his prime, especially for a role like _Die Walküre_ Wotan. His voice developed a wobble and lost some of its strength in the later years of his career. Hotter's voice wasn't probably the most beautiful bass-baritone voice but you'd have a very hard time finding a Wotan whose interpretations are more intelligent and thought-through than Hotter's. But his timbre is certainly quite distinctive and it can take some time to get used to it.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

He stole my woman, shot me in the gut, and left me to die.

Damn right I hate him.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Coach G said:


> Schubert's _Wintereisse_ (w/Murray Perahia, piano)





Simplicissimus said:


> his 1961 recording of _Die schöne Müllerin_ with Gerald Moore


I picked both of these up and put them down at the record store earlier today, and now I'm regretting it. I may go back for them. Then again I already have DFD w/ Demus on DG for the Winterreise, and I have a Schöne Müllerin w/ Wunderlich that I love.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Simplicissimus said:


> I think individual tastes regarding vocal timbre are very interesting. That's one of the reasons I like vocal music. I wonder whether what you find unattractive in DFD's timbre is something tinny, or like a stiff membrane vibrating. That's a quality I detect in many German baritones. I've developed the idea that it is related to a typical vocal quality of the German speaking voice. IMV, speech communities have norms for vocal timbre; in production terms, for the postures and maneuvers of the larynx used in speech and singing. As a famous linguistic phonetician said, "There's more to speech than language."





annaw said:


> That might not have so much to do with his timbre but with the fact he was just past his prime, especially for a role like Die Walküre Wotan. His voice developed a wobble and lost some of its strength in the later years of his career. Hotter's voice wasn't probably the most beautiful bass-baritone voice but you'd have a very hard time finding a Wotan whose interpretations are more intelligent and thought-through than Hotter's. But his timbre is certainly quite distinctive and it can take some time to get used to it.


The best word I can think of to describe what draws me off is "woofiness." A certain dry "crustiness," if you will. I tend to prefer fuller, smoother, richer, silkier voices. I don't necessarily prioritize vocal beauty just like I don't prioritize perfect playing for orchestral and piano recordings, but I will admit that I am pickier about singers just because whether I like the sound of their voices determines whether I can put up with them.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> The best word I can think of to describe what draws me off is "woofiness." A certain dry "crustiness," if you will. I tend to prefer fuller, smoother, richer, silkier voices. I don't necessarily prioritize vocal beauty just like I don't prioritize perfect playing for orchestral and piano recordings, but I will admit that I am pickier about singers just because whether I like the sound of their voices determines whether I can put up with them.


Understandable. Interestingly, "woofy" is exactly the word that has been used to describe Hotter when he was in bad voice. 1935 _Die Walküre_ Acts I and II (Bruno Walter) with Lehmann, Melchior and 26-years-old Hotter or one of the 50s Rings might give a better idea of his voice than many of the later recordings .


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## UniversalTuringMachine (Jul 4, 2020)

Dieskau's voice was fine but Hans was Hotter.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Don’t get me wrong about Hotter, two of his recordings from the early ’50’s are close to my heart - his penetrating interpretation of Winterreise and his incredibly moving reading of Bach’s Ich Habe Genug. He was undoubtedly a fantastic interpreter and the kind of darker voice that I prefer in comparison to DFD, but I think he should have retired way earlier than he did. I have no problem saying that DFD was an interpreter of the highest caliber as well, but I just have a tough time seeing past his lightweight, grainy timbre.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

I think DFD was a great singer. I have seen a lot of criticism towards him (not necessarily on this forum, but elsewhere) and have probably taken some of it too seriously. But, to be honest, I like most of what I have heard of his. One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet is his Scarpia on the Maazel recording of _Tosca_ . He's really good there!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm quite pleased with the results of this poll and thread, I've found it most enlightening. I'm tempted to repost it word for word in the opera forum to see how the results change, but I'm not going to do that.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I do not know DFD's recordings as well as many do so I can't do this myself ... but I think discussing singers' voices needs almost always to include differentiation between the quality of the voice at different ages, with some of the original beauty going and artistic maturity growing.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

No...why would I? I don't really "hate" any instrumentalist or singer. There are some I like more than others. I think Fischer-Dieskau was one of the all-time greats.


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## Alinde (Feb 8, 2020)

I haunt YouTube and listen to many singers.

Often I think that nobody could have sung a certain Lied or a particular Mozart or Bach aria better. If I see a Fischer-Dieskau's recording of the same song or aria in the YouTube side bar and decide to listen to him too I can't recall a time when I didn't have to admit that, to my ears, somebody could after all sing that better - more intelligently, with more sympathy for the words, more thrillingly, sometimes more seductively, and with more mastery of rhythm. My favourite recordings are those he made in the 1960s when his voice was at its most beautiful.

Footnote: Three decades ago, about a year after I'd found my way into Bach and Lieder via DFD, I wrote to thank him. I deliberately made my name and address almost indecipherable as I didn't want him wasting time replying, also I was young and was embarrassing myself by writing to the great man.

Apparently he always replied himself to such letters and his (German style) handwriting was even more indecipherable than mine.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Alinde said:


> I haunt YouTube and listen to many singers.
> 
> Often I think that nobody could have sung a certain Lied or a particular Mozart or Bach aria better. If I see a Fischer-Dieskau's recording of the same song or aria in the YouTube side bar and decide to listen to him too I can't recall a time when I didn't have to admit that, to my ears, somebody could after all sing that better - more intelligently, with more sympathy for the words, more thrillingly, sometimes more seductively, and with more mastery of rhythm. My favourite recordings are those he made in the 1960s when his voice was at its most beautiful.
> 
> ...


Wrote a letter and got a response! Interesting. Why would that be embarrassing though?

I wonder if there are people who still write letters to classical singers. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to have a mailing address anyway. I wonder if I could write a letter to any of the singers I listen to, the few who are still alive. Many may not speak English though.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> Wrote a letter and got a response! Interesting. Why would that be embarrassing though?
> 
> I wonder if there are people who still write letters to classical singers. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to have a mailing address anyway. I wonder if I could write a letter to any of the singers I listen to, the few who are still alive. Many may not speak English though.


Some living you can message trough Instagram, often you do get response.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Rogerx said:


> Some living you can message trough Instagram, often you do get response.


I wouldn't have thought Instagram would be the place to go, but perhaps. Actually, I don't have an Instagram account. So I wouldn't know.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

I think he has a magnificent voice but I prefer his singing in operas. It seems too full-throttle for lieder. Just my personal preference. Don’t taze me, bro.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

20centrfuge said:


> I think he has a magnificent voice but I prefer his singing in operas. It seems too full-throttle for lieder. Just my personal preference. Don't taze me, bro.


I won't taze you, but my opinion is exactly the opposite.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

I would love him more if he interpreted with some actual power the GEWALT! from Schubby's Erlkönig.
That's why I prefer Ian Bostridge.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

aioriacont said:


> I would love him more if he interpreted with some actual power the GEWALT! from Schubby's Erlkönig.
> That's why I prefer Ian Bostridge.


The only thing that I find more difficult than listening to Bostridge is watching him in concert.


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