# The best singing?



## DennyL (Jun 2, 2011)

I often wonder about who I think is the best singer, and whether it's useful to compare trained voices with 'pop' voices. I just had the thought that if, on my desert island, I was forced to choose between only trained voices or only untrained voices it would for me be no contest, and I would choose untrained and enjoy the diversity of Louis Armstrong, Frank Sinatra, Nina Simone, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, Bessie Smith, etc and do without the Last Four Songs and Winterreise, etc. It's not that I have no taste for trained voices, I do, but they are all trying to sound more-or-less alike, and one needs to be quite knowledgeable to tell them apart. Also the need to 'fill an auditorium' unassisted makes subtlety and expressiveness more difficult compared to using a natural voice near to a microphone.

I believe that in singing the words take precedence over the music, and the better singer is the one who brings more meaning to the words. Some singers use the words just as a vehicle for their voice, and I think more can be done.

There is also the issue of singers and singer/songwriters. The latter, singing songs that they have written, seem to bring more authority to their songs.

I think good singing is a combination of emotion and meaning; musicality; quality of voice, caring about the music and strength of personality.

I think threads in forums like this soon become uninteresting when people baldly state their favourites without reasons, so here is my short list:-

*Frank Sinatra*: he brought the strongest combination of the qualities I seek, majoring on finding the meaning in the words and making them sound as though he had experienced them. He also had attitude and an excellent voice, and he cared about what he sang.

*Nina Simone*: She majored on attitude, and a strong political commitment that brought power to what she sang.

*Hank Williams*: He wrote songs of sublime simplicity, and his voice and style suited them perfectly, and one knew that the songs' meanings were important to him.

There are plenty of other candidates, of course, and on another day my short list would be different.


----------



## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

You might be interested in listening to Ian Bostridge's _Desert Island Discs_ appearance. He has some interesting observations about expressiveness in singing, and why he likes Bob Dylan.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

DennyL said:


> I believe that in singing the words take precedence over the music, and the better singer is the one who brings more meaning to the words. Some singers use the words just as a vehicle for their voice, and I think more can be done.


To each his own. I am just the opposite. Sure I love the meaning of a good song, but for me the words are less important than the musical sounds themselves. I remember seeing an interview with Mick Jagger in which he claimed to always try to write songs with a lot of "uh!" sounds in them, e.g. "Start Me Up." He claimed the "uh!" sound was more primal.

One of my favorite singers, Elizabeth Frazier from The Cocteau Twins, takes this to an extreme and often has no meaning whatsoever. She may not have been singing in any language but her own, though it sounds vaguely like toddler English. She also does very odd things with her voice I can't describe - not quite tremelo. I've never figured out how she's doing it.






My list of favorite expressive non-trained singers would fill several pages and I agree the trained operatic or classical singers are of necessity a bit handicapped in that department.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

DennyL said:


> I often wonder about who I think is the best singer, and whether it's useful to compare trained voices with 'pop' voices. I just had the thought that if, on my desert island, I was forced to choose between only trained voices or only untrained voices it would for me be no contest, and I would choose untrained and enjoy the diversity of Louis Armstrong, Frank Sinatra, Nina Simone, Hank Williams, Bob Dylan, Bessie Smith, etc and do without the Last Four Songs and Winterreise, etc. It's not that I have no taste for trained voices, I do, but they are all trying to sound more-or-less alike, and one needs to be quite knowledgeable to tell them apart. Also the need to 'fill an auditorium' unassisted makes subtlety and expressiveness more difficult compared to using a natural voice near to a microphone.
> 
> I believe that in singing the words take precedence over the music, and the better singer is the one who brings more meaning to the words. Some singers use the words just as a vehicle for their voice, and I think more can be done.
> 
> ...


I can't agree more.

Some of my favorite voices:

Tim Buckley
Dock Boggs
Robert Wyatt
Robert Pete Williams
Jimmy Scott
Nick Cave
Tom Waits
Camaron de la Isla
Neil Young

Maria Callas
Iris Dement
Margaret Philpot
Nina Simone
Aretha Franklin
Marion Williams
Bessie Smith
Mary Margaret O'Hara
Joni Mitchell
Sandy Denny


----------



## DennyL (Jun 2, 2011)

Norman Bates, that's a very good list!


----------



## DennyL (Jun 2, 2011)

Meaghan, I missed Ian Bostrige's Desert Island Discs. Was it long ago? I enjoyed Roger Waters last week. I wanted to mention Bob Dylan in my post, but I didn't want to be too provocative because I know there are those who would argue that Dylan can't sing.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I think that best male vocalist in history of popular music was Mercury with his strong, agile singing and unique voice timbre. He was phenomenal. The most impressive non-classically trained voice I've ever heard, it's most remarkeable on early albums (before they went to this cheap pop stuff).

Och, and Bob Dylan. And if I dieeeeee... on the top of the hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllll...


----------



## hemidemisemiquaver (Apr 22, 2011)

Weston said:


> One of my favorite singers, Elizabeth Frazier from The Cocteau Twins, takes this to an extreme and often has no meaning whatsoever. She may not have been singing in any language but her own, though it sounds vaguely like toddler English. She also does very odd things with her voice I can't describe - not quite tremelo. I've never figured out how she's doing it.


Agreed. Can't describe Cocteau Twins and Elizabeth's voice in particular other than ethereal. Something absolutely amazing.

For my part, I suggest the Mars Volta:


----------



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

The vocals are by far the worst part of The Mars Volta for me.

I agree with the sentiment that the ability of the singer isn't as important as the song they are singing on. I also would choose more natural, rough untrained voices over the classically trained style. A good example is I much prefer Ozzy's singing over Dio's even though technically Dio is better vocally.

Some of my favourites:

Captain Beefheart
Gil-Scott Heron
John Fogerty
James Brown
Mariem Hassan
Bryan Ferry
Mark E Smith
Iggy Pop
Ozzy Osbourne
David Bowie
Ian Curtis
Blind Willie Johnson
Jimi Hendrix
Neil Young
Johnny Cash
Brian Johnson


----------



## Serge (Mar 25, 2010)

From the top of my head...

Ray Charles

And the Jazz Divas:

Billie Holiday
Ella Fitzgerald
Sarah Vaughan

And probably a bunch of others as well.

I realize that I forgot to explain why, but pardon me, if you please, my memory is just awful.


----------



## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

DennyL said:


> Meaghan, I missed Ian Bostrige's Desert Island Discs. Was it long ago? I enjoyed Roger Waters last week. I wanted to mention Bob Dylan in my post, but I didn't want to be too provocative because I know there are those who would argue that Dylan can't sing.


It is archived on the Desert Island Discs website, so you can still listen to it. "Don't think twice, it's alright" was Bostridge's one non-classical pick because he thinks Bob Dylan is very expressive. I like Dylan's voice, myself.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I forgot to mention Barry Gibb from Bee Gees, he's my hero since I remember:


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some examples of things that it's impossible to hear by a classically trained voice:




the part from 4:00


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

voices, eh...so many great ones out there...as a singer of twenty + years i'm still working it out and getting better and discovering new things all the time...it's funny because while i am told that i convey songs very well and that i get the lyrics across in a very good way, i usually don't even think of the lyrics as a story rather as musical notes i have to hit...of course, i do know the lyrics and my mind understands them and i guess that's why it comes out as if i'm storytelling but for me i,...i don't know....singing is fun...i don't really care to explore too much beyond that...just keep doing it and enjoy thyself


----------



## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Since someone already established personality matters as much as technique and training, I'll go ahead and mention David Yow.










By any technical standard most people agree he's terrible, but I sort of disagree. He had a gift for subtle emotive nuance in even his most crazed performances, and it was all well suited for his incredibly physical live shows, where he was on the ground or in the audience half the time anyway. Or getting smashed with bottles. Physicality aside, there's no "good" vocalist out there who could create such a morbid, Lynchian atmosphere.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> there's no "good" vocalist out there who could create such a morbid, Lynchian atmosphere.


i agree completely. My favorite of him probably is Seasick


----------



## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

This guy is unparalleled in regards to singing






This dude is pretty close though


----------



## Noak (Jul 18, 2009)




----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've been listening to Theo Bleckmann. A very unusual and great vocalist. There's a guy from my hometown named Mark Murphy. If you stopped 30 people on the street here and mentioned his name, you'd probably get 30 blank stares. Nevertheless, he is one of the greatest jazz vocalists in the history of the music.

Ultimately, people don't care about great technique. They either like the sound of a particular voice or they don't. Millions of people love Van Morrison, but I can't stand him. I don't like anyone who sings like they've got two tongues in their mouth. I prefer articulate vocalists. That's my four cents.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

starthrower said:


> Ultimately, people don't care about great technique. They either like the sound of a particular voice or they don't. .


thank goodness


----------



## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

I care about technique. Possessing great range and power can add to the emotional range of your singing.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Curiosity said:


> I care about technique. Possessing great range and power can add to the emotional range of your singing.


true, but not necessarily. There a lot of technically gifted singers who, despite of their extension, agility and intonaton, are unable to deliver any emotion that is the real important thing.


----------



## Curiosity (Jul 10, 2011)

norman bates said:


> true, but not necessarily. There a lot of technically gifted singers who, despite of their extension, agility and intonaton, are unable to deliver any emotion that is the real important thing.


Yeah, but when you get a singer who combines both technique and emotional expression... There's nothing quite like it.


----------



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

i disagree:


----------

