# Beethoven and the late quartets and grosse fuge.



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Is the zenith of music these pieces of music? This is where music ended as nothing after them has come close to being objectively on par. These pieces are like the speed of light, you can never catch up with them you can never reach the speed of light. But didn't they try? Brahms, Schumann, Bruckner et al, they bloody tried and toiled and they produced incredible music but never got anywhere near the standard set by Beethoven's late quartets and grosse fuge. They have intrinsic value like Bach's WCT. It doesn't matter what people think of Beethoven's late music as it is the end of the line for humanity and all art. 

Apologies if you are sick of another Late Quartet discussion.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

There are many musical Zeniths. Bach's WTC & Haydn's The Creation were musical Zeniths. Quite a few others.

Surely, though, those Beethoven Quartets are musical high points; call them collectively, a musical Zenith, if you wish. I wouldn't argue.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I have only recently got into listening to them, as I mostly grazed on Beethoven's symphonies, concertos, and sonatas. I can't begin to explain how I feel about these pieces of music except that I am utterly blown away for want of a better cliche. Yes, collectively, is how I meant to display them as a zenith.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

beetzart said:


> This is where music ended as nothing after them has come close to being *objectively* on par.


Be careful with these words!!!! 

Apart from that I think that if you really think music ended there, maybe you should be doing some more listening. And if you let go the idée fixe of Beethoven as the only all mighty composer, maybe you'll find other genius composers/music.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

beetzart said:


> Apologies if you are sick of another Late Quartet discussion.


No, but I am getting sick at the same "argument" in so many different threads. Believe it or not, and no matter what you think and keep on saying, music did not end with these works. "Objectively" my donkey.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I think it's easy -- very easy -- to become enthusiastic about Beethoven's late works to a somewhat tiresome extent. I myself have suffered from such blind and (for others) tedious enthusiasm for many years.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

KenOC said:


> I think it's easy -- very easy -- to become enthusiastic about Beethoven's late works to a somewhat tiresome extent. I myself have suffered from such blind and (for others) tedious enthusiasm for many years.


I think the enthusiasm for Beethoven's late works is more caused by the works not being THAT obviously easy (for me that is). After repeated listening they slowly start to reveal themselves to a point where the "sufferer" (like beetzart) is overwhelmed by the enormous rewards that inevitably follow when you dedicate time to late Beethoven. The result is a condition where every attempt to equal the greatness of these quartets is arrogantly smiled upon. This condition may last a very long time but eventually will fade a bit (or not!!!)


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

To me, what has always been remarkable is that there is little to turn off the first time listener (except for the Fugue; and unlike things like like the "Hammerklavier" or the Opus 111 sonatas, which can easily bewilder). But the more times you listen, the deeper they go -- forever. They're almost a bottomless pit. I* still don't get how he did it.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

MarkW said:


> To me, what has always been remarkable is that there is little to turn off the first time listener (except for the Fugue; and unlike things like like the "Hammerklavier" or the Opus 111 sonatas, which can easily bewilder). But the more times you listen, the deeper they go -- forever. They're almost a bottomless pit. I* still don't get how he did it.


Exactly! I don't see it as some form of suffering as mentioned above but I appreciate the metaphor.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Having listened to the late quartets and piano sonatas by Beethoven, I do think there is an inward beauty (best as I can describe it) to them. But i think context has a lot to do with them being exalted to a point beyond what they deserve. After listening to his daring pieces in the same genres in the middle period, you would automatically assume there is more meaning to these late works. My belief is if they were written by a less prominent composer, there would be way less interest in these works. It was written when his increasing deafness caused him to write whatever he heard in his mind, which doesn't all translate as he intended to the way we hear them. They can still stand on their own, but I think they are only a shadow of his intentions.

I believe if he didn't lose his hearing, the mystical quality of the pieces would be gone, and the pieces would be judged more for what they are rather than what they vaguely suggest.


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## Jacred (Jan 14, 2017)

Fascination with the late quartets is, as Phil mentioned, both qualitative in terms of the music itself and contextual. There's an almost eerie sensation that arises during the quieter, more subtle moments of the late quartets, and I daresay part of that is lent by the knowledge that these were the composer's last works. His deafness would have enhanced this interpretation-- perhaps we as listeners are trying to feel in his late works the deep abyss that Beethoven endured.

Nevertheless, the fact that the late quartets _have_ stood the test of time without losing their mysticism speaks about the impact of the music.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

How many threads can OP possibly make with the same exact premise? 

"Is Beethoven a demigod? Are the late quartets greater than sliced bread?"

like every single thread is literally the same lol. Give it a rest, try another composer for a change


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

jailhouse said:


> How many threads can OP possibly make with the same exact premise?
> 
> "Is Beethoven a demigod? Are the late quartets greater than sliced bread?"
> 
> like every single thread is literally the same lol. Give it a rest, try another composer for a change


Ok, I'll never do it again, sorry for wasting your precious time because you felt the urgent need to tell me to give it a rest. Very good advice. I have though listened to Bach and Czerny today so I do try other composers. Although no doubt they are not the correct composers to listen to; maybe you could direct me to ones you like. Or do you prefer just policing threads?


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Is the zenith of music these pieces of music?


No, that's the 9th symphony.



beetzart said:


> It doesn't matter what people think of Beethoven's late music as it is the end of the line for humanity and all art.


No that's "Götterdämmerung."


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

I sense Beetzart is trolling, nobody can emptily make such empty statements so enforcing and be serious.

Also, the word objective doesn't apply to any art whatsoever


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

beetzart said:


> Ok, I'll never do it again, sorry for wasting your precious time because you felt the urgent need to tell me to give it a rest.....maybe you could direct me to ones you like. Or do you prefer just policing threads?


That's not how it works either, you can't prove opinions.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

David OByrne said:


> I sense Beetzart is trolling, nobody can emptily make such empty statements so enforcing and be serious.
> 
> Also, the word objective doesn't apply to any art whatsoever


Damn you're good, that's me caught. I actually started this thread for genuine musical reasons. And yes I made some over emotional claims but that happens to me sometimes. I really hope no one is too upset and will get to the weekend without too much angst.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

David OByrne said:


> That's not how it works either, you can't prove opinions.


I never said you could.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> Apologies if you are sick of another Late Quartet discussion.


I think your apology in advance induced some of the negative comments. As John Wayne said "Don't apologize, it's a sign of weakness"... be glad you started this thread, and don't look back.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

beetzart said:


> Damn you're good, that's me caught. I actually started this thread for genuine musical reasons. And yes I made some over emotional claims but that happens to me sometimes. I really hope no one is too upset and will get to the weekend without too much angst.


You ruined my week because of this thread! :scold:


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## Lenny (Jul 19, 2016)

jailhouse said:


> How many threads can OP possibly make with the same exact premise?
> 
> "Is Beethoven a demigod? Are the late quartets greater than sliced bread?"
> 
> like every single thread is literally the same lol. Give it a rest, try another composer for a change


I think there can be as many Beethoven threads as there is space left in the interwebs.

For some time I though this Beethoven late this-and-that is hypocritical bs, but I cannot deny there's something very special in those works. Beethoven clearly changed. To my ears, the early Beethoven music is a bit boring, but the late music starts to sound very interesting.

I'll propose another point of view. It wasn't the deafness alone, but the main reason for his change was solitude. Think about it: what happens if composer starts to lose his ears? Maybe he won't get orders anymore, may he gets ridiculed. He would surely try to hide the condition as much as possible. Which also means that he would not play his ideas to collegues and friends, so the feedback loop from other humans is cut. He's now completely in his own world, without any correcting reactions from audience, which eventually leads to bizarre one man world. Armed with the huge musical heritage and knowledge in art, that bizarre, in a very practical sense insane, world can be heard with his late works.

Maybe there's even more generic receipe here. If you want to do something great, first spend couple of decades and learn your art inside out, then escape to the mountains, like Zarathustra. Then walk down back to mortals to spread your twisted inner reality. So you need 1) talent 2) huge work 3) insanity caused by solitude. Easy!


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