# How please, do I classify/categorisel chords as a part of a scale?



## ohdearme

Hello All.

I have heard of chords called the eg " Major chord of the flattened (and then a number,) also Roman figures used. 

Please how would you call the chord of Bb major in the key of C major and the chord of G major in the key of A minor, using the two systems, the "flattened /raised system" for lack of a better name and also the Roman system?

Actually what would the correct term be for my "flattened /raised system" which I'm sure could be better put?

How does it all work?

Look forward to your answers. Lovely Xmas to you all.


----------



## REP

ohdearme said:


> Please how would you call the chord of Bb major in the key of C major and the chord of G major in the key of A minor, using the two systems, the "flattened /raised system" for lack of a better name and also the Roman system?


They're subtonic chords. Bb is bVII in the key of C major and G is VII in the key of a. 

And there aren't two systems as far as I'm aware; "flat seven chord" is just how bVII is pronounced in English.

Note that seven chords (i.e. chords built on the seventh scale degree) are not to be confused with _seventh_ chords (i.e. chords with the interval of a seventh above the root).


----------



## Nate Miller

Chords built on the flat Seventh scale degree are used in what's sometimes called a "modal cadence". You see it in folk music alot. The bVII is functioning as a substitute for the dominant, really. For example, you might see in the key of D minor a progression like...

D minor - G minor - D minor - C major - D minor


So instead of a V chord of some kind for the dominant, you get a chord built on the flat 7th scale degree "substituting" for the dominant


----------



## ohdearme

Hello Rep. 7 and 7th chords, I 'm ok with, thanks for pointing it out. Can I clarify please. When you said that G is the subdominant of A, did you mean A Major? Would it also be a subtonic (ie bVII) in A minor and would we be talking about the harmonic version of the A minor scale?

Thanks Nate for your comment.

Best
Alan


----------



## bagpipers

In typical tonal European music it works like;We will use A major as example:
I A maj. II B major (but nothing wrong with going B min. either) III C# min (III always minor in major mode) IV D maj V E major VI F# min VII (usually diminished)(I would use a Italian VI chord) G-B-E# (Fnatural)

lets do minor now 

I A min II either B min dim or Bflat major ,your choice. B min dim B-D-F natural. III always major in minor C major VI D maj or D min V E major VI F major VII G min dim 7th G-Bflat-Dflat-F flat 

That is why it's harder to compose in minor because there are fewer minor chords to work with.


----------



## ohdearme

Thanks all of you. A merry Christmas and a happy new year. Looking forward to your reply Rep


----------



## REP

ohdearme said:


> Thanks all of you. A merry Christmas and a happy new year. Looking forward to your reply Rep


Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now. The subtonic scale degree is always a whole step below the tonic, so it's always the same in both major and minor. In the key of A major, for example, it's G-natural. In a-minor, it's still G-natural, because that's a whole step below the tonic.

If you build a chord on the subtonic, the scale degrees are (b)7, 2 and 4, which are unchanged between major and minor. Therefore, the subtonic chord will be the same in both major and minor modes. In the case of A-major and a-minor, that would be G-major.


----------



## pianozach

No disrespect intended, but it seems that you may want to explore some entry level Music Theory tutorials. There is plenty of free help online to get you started (both websites and Youtube tutorials), and even some inexpensive Beginning Music Theory books available.

It just seems that you are not up-to-speed on some basic music theory concepts. We can have more meaningful discussions about harmony and harmonic structure if you get more familiar some fundamentals. 

Music Theory For Beginners: The 10 Step System For Rapid Progress 
Basic Music Theory Lessons 





Alfred Music Theory Made Easy for Kids Level 1 Book


Get the guaranteed best price on Songbooks & Singalongs like the Alfred Music Theory Made Easy for Kids Level 1 Book at Musician's Friend. Get a low price and free shipping on thousands of items.




www.musiciansfriend.com





Here's some videos to get you started. _You may already know many of these basics_, but there may also be a lot of very useful information that will help you immensely.


----------



## bagpipers

REP said:


> Sorry, I didn't see your reply until now. The subtonic scale degree is always a whole step below the tonic, so it's always the same in both major and minor. In the key of A major, for example, it's G-natural. In a-minor, it's still G-natural, because that's a whole step below the tonic.
> 
> If you build a chord on the subtonic, the scale degrees are (b)7, 2 and 4, which are unchanged between major and minor. Therefore, the subtonic chord will be the same in both major and minor modes. In the case of A-major and a-minor, that would be G-major.


Traditionally yes and that's indicated in my post above both in maj & min i used g maj g min dimVII respectively.
You could in minor go G# min to A major with the G# as a leading tone and the B falls back to A and then throw in a E# to avoid a paralell 5th,different but good I have used it in my music.


----------



## ohdearme

Thank you Rep, Got it now.

Hello Pianozach, You are right and I am always looking on you tube and other websites. I have this peculiar knowledge where for example, I know chord construction (except the subtonic evidently) figured bass and voice leading, yet the gaps in my knowledge are huge. Incidentally, I have come across You tube "tutorials" where some people have a few lessons and then suddenly become self appointed unqualified "teachers" I am able to recognise them but begginers are unable to. These people can put people in the wrong direction. What do you do with them?

I don't know either.

Happy new year to you all

Alan


----------

