# Why does music played backward sound unmusical?



## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

I thought I'd pose this question and see where it goes...

Why does music played backward sound "unmusical"?

Obviously I'm not talking about playing a recording backward as that's not the same thing.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

So if you don't mean playing a recording backwards, you mean playing forwards the notes in a piece from last to first instead of first to last?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Gneiss said:


> I thought I'd pose this question and see where it goes...
> 
> Why does music played backward sound "unmusical"?
> 
> Obviously I'm not talking about playing a recording backward as that's not the same thing.


Guys like JS Bach were apparently fond of doing that to parts of a work. It sounds OK to me.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

It all depends on the structure of the music. Many motifs sound just fine played backwards, but whole phrases usually don't because the structure is meant to only resolve in one direction. A I-V-ii-I chord progression, for example, just doesn't resolve in the same way as a I-ii-V-I progression.


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

This isn't always the case. There is a lot of classical that is actually palindromic.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

This is pretty fun to see:


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Apparently if you play many Lp's of Bach's Cantata's backwards you can hear " Ego amare diabolus"


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Phrasing has a lot to do with it also. Composers strategically place rests in the music in places where the rests won't interupt the flow of the phrase. If you play the piece backwards it puts the rests in a different spot in the phrase and destroys the flow of the music.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Kopachris said:


> It all depends on the structure of the music. Many motifs sound just fine played backwards, but whole phrases usually don't because the structure is meant to only resolve in one direction. A I-V-ii-I chord progression, for example, just doesn't resolve in the same way as a I-ii-V-I progression.


Yeah, what this person who's more articulate than me on chord progressions said.


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

I am obviously a very boring person. I am 54 years old, and until this morning I have never tried playing music backwards. It sounds weird. 

Hmm. Thinking ....


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

You're talking about retrogrades, (musical palindromes) and there is nothing new about it at all.
Here are some verbal palindromes as an example. "Able was I ere I saw Elba," or "racecar" "Was it a cat I saw?" -- all read the same backwards or forwards. _The same thing can be successfully done with music, both harmony and or single lines._ 

Guillaume de Machaut ~ Ma fin est mon commencement; rondeau for 3 voices
The song:




article:
http://www.allmusic.com/work/ma-fin-est-mon-commencement-rondeau-for-3-voices-c100519/description

This tour-de-force composition is from the thirteen hundreds, predating Bach -- by centuries.

Later, in the 20th century you have Messiaen's scores are often nearly littered with retrogrades, both notes and rhythm, or Stravinsky writing in a form of canon which includes a retrograde "Cancrizan," (sometimes called 'crab cancrizan.')
Stravinsky ~ Cantata; Ricecare II, 'Tomorrow shall be my dancing day.' (with among other things, cancrizans in the vocal line.)
If planned for, and it takes an ingenious mind, the music sounds completely 'musical.'

Stravinsky ~ Cantata; Ricecare II, 'Tomorrow shall be my dancing day.' (with among other things, cancrizans in the vocal line.)





Music, especially from the common practice era, uses harmonies and progressions associated with a series of weaker - stronger, and those are very much associated with 'direction' as 'going forward' and those do sound less strong in reverse order. Add to that construct of our being familiar with the piece first in its original (forward) direction, and of course that would sound 'unmusical.' to our habituated ears.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Moira said:


> I am obviously a very boring person. I am 54 years old, and until this morning I have never tried playing music backwards. It sounds weird.
> 
> Hmm. Thinking ....


While you're at it, invert it, read the treble as bass and bass as treble - the ability to disassociate and 'just read' comes in handy


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Can't believe nobody has mentioned Haydn 47th symphony!


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Cnote11 said:


> Can't believe nobody has mentioned Haydn 47th symphony!


Because...?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Is it his 74th played backwards?


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## Cnote11 (Jul 17, 2010)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Because...?


Because it is called "The Palindrome" symphony (because of the third movement).

"The "Minuetto al Roverso" is the reason this symphony is sometimes called "The Palindrome": the second part of the Minuet is the same as the first but backwards, and the Trio is also written in this way."


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cnote11 said:


> Because it is called "The Palindrome" symphony (because of the third movement).
> 
> "The "Minuetto al Roverso" is the reason this symphony is sometimes called "The Palindrome": the second part of the Minuet is the same as the first but backwards, and the Trio is also written in this way."


Had to look it up, but, yep...
Haydn: Symphony # 47 in G, III. Menuet al Roverso


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

PetrB said:


> While you're at it, invert it, read the treble as bass and bass as treble - the ability to disassociate and 'just read' comes in handy


Hmm. Very, very boring. Also something I have never done - well, not intentionally anyway.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

Take from ''how music works'' with Howard Goodall.






The music from the new Zelda is old Zelda's Lullaby backwards.


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## Gneiss (Feb 3, 2009)

Polednice said:


> So if you don't mean playing a recording backwards, you mean playing forwards the notes in a piece from last to first instead of first to last?


My apologies for not getting back sooner and I see the thread has already moved on, but yes that is exactly what I meant....

*****************************************

Thank you all for the fascinating contributions so far


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Also if you play a piece backwards the notes wont line up the same way...If you have a quarter note F in the bass with two eighth note B-C in the treble then if you play that backwards, the way I'm assuming most people would play it backwards you instead get a C-B under the same F. The F and the C will sound together instead of the F and B and then it will go to a dissonance instead of resolving to a consonance.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Webern's concerto Op. 24 (for 9 instruments) is based on the sator square, an ancient Roman era poem that is a palindrome. I don't really know if I 'get' or 'understand' it or whatever, I don't mind it but it's not my favourite work by him. & the other two Modern Vienna School guys also liked building pieces around palindromes. Berg's_ Chamber Concerto _is an example, but I think he's more flexible with the mathematics and all that compared to Webern.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Cnote11 said:


> Because it is called "The Palindrome" symphony (because of the third movement).
> 
> "The "Minuetto al Roverso" is the reason this symphony is sometimes called "The Palindrome": the second part of the Minuet is the same as the first but backwards, and the Trio is also written in this way."


Thank you.

The first movement of Henze's very substantial second piano concerto runs 28:22 in Christoph Eschenbach's premiere recording and is a huge palindrome. Either side of a central ten bar section (in which the piano is silent), are two big 98 bar sections, each the retrograde of the other.


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