# Wagner: My Life.



## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

If anyone at all is interested in Wagner as much as I am, interested in his life & opinions on subjects from art, music, theatre, politics and more, and who is open-minded and is not weak-minded enough to think of Wagner as just a unintelligent anti-semite, then here is a book he wrote about his life:

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/b/b1/IMSLP93617-PMLP193126-RWagner_My_life_vol.1.pdf

I am 20 pages in so far, and considering the massive length of this "book", I am in surprise that Wagner can remember periods of his life from so long ago, with such extreme detail.. I knew he was a great and prolific writer, but he must of also had really good memory - if anyone else reads the book you will know what I mean.

I also suggest that you put some of his Overtures on in the background while reading, makes the experience better in my opinion.

Looking forward to finishing this book, in several months atleast! :lol:


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

JamieHoldham said:


> I am 20 pages in so far, and considering the massive length of this "book", I am in surprise that Wagner can remember periods of his life from so long ago, with such extreme detail.. *I knew he was a great and prolific writer*, but he must of also had really good memory - if anyone else reads the book you will know what I mean.


Well, I can't think of another "great" opera composer other than Wagner who wrote their own librettos. Wagner isn't really a huge favorite of mine, but I really enjoy Die Meistersinger and Lohengrin. I also agree that people tend to look at Wagner as a whole- a terrible man who hated Jews and everybody else. He _did_ have some good qualities- and where would movie music be without him?


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Take it all with a grain of salt. To some extent, all biography is unreliable, and autobiography tends to be even more unreliable. (Which doesn't mean that it can't be a great read, and potentially informative.)


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

JAS said:


> Take it all with a grain of salt. To some extent, all biography is unreliable, and autobiography tends to be even more unreliable. (Which doesn't mean that it can't be a great read, and potentially informative.)


I assume if anything is incorrect that is was Wagner's discretion, or anything extra added was ethier him recalling past events based roughly on what happened, and expanding / adding to it.


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## Mayerl (May 5, 2008)

It's about time that Wagner's alleged failings as a person were put to one side. What should we be remembering about one of the 19th Century's most prominent composers? His promiscuity, his debts, his anti-Semitism. Should any of these detract in any way from the sheer beauty, power and scale of his music; they should not.
I'm afraid that these days more is written about Wagner the man than in appreciation of his work, a trend that has become more fashionable since we have had political correctness thrust upon us. Is any note of Act I of Gotterdammerung less than perfect because Wagner never paid his debts; is the ethereal opening of Rheingold marred by his anti-Semitism? Is Beethoven castigated for his supposed bad temper; do we shun the music of Brahms because he played the piano in a Hamburg brothel? What does it matter? 
The current weight of opinion would appear to be that in order to produce something beautiful the artist must be of unblemished character!
I readily accept that the music of Wagner is not to everyone's taste and has, and always will be wide open to criticism, more so in the last 50 years or so with the increasing number of words written on the subject of his descendants apparent sympathies with Nazi Germany. His music is often criticised for representing German nationalism, but remember it was written at a time when Nationalism was not a dirty word, it was something to be proud of.
The day that I finally consider myself to be perfect, I shall stop listening to Wagner. I say that in the full confidence that I shall never see that day!!!


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## JamieHoldham (May 13, 2016)

^ Well said.

Wagner is one of my favourite composers and my biggest inspiration as a composer myself, to follow in his footsteps of pushing the boundaries of musical inventiveness in all aspects of music theory, and I have also had ideas and visions of even making blueprints an designs for new instruments which I could use in my own compositions - as Wagner did with the so called "Wagner Tuba".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Mein Leben_ is a valuable resource, but not entirely objective or reliable. We can expect autobiographers to portray themselves in the best possible light. It needn't be calculated dishonesty; we simply view ourselves in a way that others don't, and the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves may rewrite even our memories. In the case of a person as controversial, even in his own time, as Wagner, the desire for self-justification is quite understandable. I wouldn't call that an entirely bad thing, though, in light of the fanatical negativity of his critics, in his day and since. We need to hear from the man himself if we're to have any claim to a balanced view.

Regardless of what we think of his ideas on this subject or that, Wagner had a compulsion to say what he thought and was not shy about it. He was widely read in philosophy and literature, had a large library of works ancient and modern, and engaged in constant conversation and correspondence. His formal writings tend to be ponderous and convoluted, but his autobiography is certainly readable and worthwhile. The fact that, of the nine volumes of his writings, the only thing most of us know anything about (and probably don't even understand accurately) is one short anti-semitic essay, says more about our cultural biases and ignorance than about his.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Well, I can't think of another "great" opera composer other than Wagner who wrote their own librettos.


*cough* Berlioz *cough* Janacek *cough* Berg


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

Regarding some of his views --

For what today we see as his extreme views, how much was considered as such at the time? I assume it was more extreme, or more publicly so, since I can't think of a lot of other composers labeled the same way. I was just trying to see how much was a reflection of the time he lived or how much was a radical way of thinking even in his day.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MonagFam said:


> Regarding some of his views --
> 
> For what today we see as his extreme views, how much was considered as such at the time? I assume it was more extreme, or more publicly so, since I can't think of a lot of other composers labeled the same way. I was just trying to see how much was a reflection of the time he lived or how much was a radical way of thinking even in his day.


Wagner was very much a man of his time - only more so!


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Chronochromie said:


> *cough* Berlioz *cough* Janacek *cough* Berg


While not absolutely unique, we might still acknowledge Wagner's significant achievements in regard to composing his own libretti, especially in terms of number, length, quality and other characteristics (such as being in verse, and not prose).

(. . . and you should take something for that cough. It might turn into something serious.)


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> While not absolutely unique, we might still acknowledge Wagner's significant achievements in regard to composing his own libretti, especially in terms of number, length, quality and other characteristics (such as being in verse, and not prose).
> 
> (. . . and you should take something for that cough. It might turn into something serious.)


I'm in the final stages of tuberculosis. I'm basically one of the great Romantic composers, except without the lice, terrible teeth and musical talent.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> *cough* Berlioz *cough* Janacek *cough* Berg


Also Lortzing and Leoncavallo.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

If Hitler wasn't turned on by Wagner's music, Wagner's antisemitism would be a little footnote to his life. I'm not going to blame Wagner for Hitler's taste in music.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

There is absolutely no incompatibilty between being a great artist and a less than admirable person.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> I'm in the final stages of tuberculosis. I'm basically one of the great Romantic composers, except without the lice, terrible teeth and musical talent.


La Boheme or La Traviata ?


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Pugg said:


> La Boheme or La Traviata ?


La Chopiniana. *cough*


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I wonder if Wagner was listening to Ma Vlast for inspiration?


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> *cough* Berlioz *cough* Janacek *cough* Berg


I don't consider Berlioz and Janacek great opera composers, but I know many people disagree. To me, their operas are bland and uneventful (especially Les Troyens- torture!). I forgot about Berg though- one of my favorites. How could I forget?


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Tchaikov6 said:


> I don't consider Berlioz and Janacek great opera composers, but I know many people disagree. To me, their operas are bland and uneventful (especially Les Troyens- torture!).


One man's bland and uneventful is another man's grand and monumental.



Tchaikov6 said:


> I forgot about Berg though- one of my favorites. How could I forget?


_Wozzeck_ is based almost verbatim on Büchner's play, while _Lulu_ is an adaptation of two Wedekind plays. Give Berg librettist credit, but I don't think either textual effort is as impressive as Wagner's distillation and synthesis of German and Scandinavian epics in the Ring.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Mayerl said:


> It's about time that Wagner's alleged failings as a person were put to one side. What should we be remembering about one of the 19th Century's most prominent composers? His promiscuity, his debts, his anti-Semitism. Should any of these detract in any way from the sheer beauty, power and scale of his music; they should not.
> I'm afraid that these days more is written about Wagner the man than in appreciation of his work, a trend that has become more fashionable since we have had political correctness thrust upon us.


Wagner the man remains a fascinating subject, especially in light of the music he wrote. On some level we attempt to separate the human artist from the nonhuman art in order to appreciate the art, but in some very deep sense it remains the humanness of the artist that allows for the art in the first place. It proves tricky business to separate the two.

Needless to say, some "great men" in terms of humanitarianism, philanthropy, and/or general kindness and self-sacrifice for others will produce only poor to mediocre art, while criminals may prove artistic geniuses. As much as the artist and the art are related, they are also separate and disparate. Tricky business, indeed.

I have long admired Deems Taylor's fascinating, concise little essay titled "The Monster", and I recommend it to all, regardless of your opinion about Wagner's music or Wagner's attitudes. Especially if you haven't time to read the full Wagner autobiography you might turn to Taylor's two pages. Not only does he achieve a masterwork of English prose writing, Taylor also reaches a sane conclusion, one I certainly have no argument with.

http://www.bestlibrary.org/files/monster.pdf


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

SONNET CLV said:


> Wagner the man remains a fascinating subject, especially in light of the music he wrote. On some level we attempt to separate the human artist from the nonhuman art in order to appreciate the art, but in some very deep sense it remains the humanness of the artist that allows for the art in the first place. It proves tricky business to separate the two.
> 
> Needless to say, some "great men" in terms of humanitarianism, philanthropy, and/or general kindness and self-sacrifice for others will produce only poor to mediocre art, while criminals may prove artistic geniuses. As much as the artist and the art are related, they are also separate and disparate. Tricky business, indeed.
> 
> ...


Is the title "The Monster" meant to satirize or subvert common misconceptions or is it just another author wallowing in the common tropes about Wagner? I'm interested but I won't even waste the time it takes to read 2 pages on yet another politically correct loser attempting to make his name by taking a great man down a notch. I'm sure many here disagree but I don't consider Wagner a bad person in the least and I'm not at all interested in more character assassination.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Suggest you read Deems Taylor's essay. I also have it on my site at https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/the-monster .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

bz3 said:


> Is the title "The Monster" meant to satirize or subvert common misconceptions or is it just another author wallowing in the common tropes about Wagner? I'm interested but I won't even waste the time it takes to read 2 pages on yet another politically correct loser attempting to make his name by taking a great man down a notch.


It's worth reading, but read it as an entertaining literary exercise. It was written long before PC was a thing.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Chronochromie said:


> La Chopiniana. *cough*


Send me a copy if you will?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner was already highly controversial during his lifetime, long before Hitler had been born . And in his lifetime, his anti-semitism was not even an issue, because anti-semitism was the norm in Europe and his statements were not even considered reprehensible . 
There was already something about the music and the librettos which infuriated so many people , including so many music critics and composers who were his contemporaries . No composer has ever divided people to this degree for some reason .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

superhorn said:


> Wagner was already highly controversial during his lifetime, long before Hitler had been born . And in his lifetime, his anti-semitism was not even an issue, because anti-semitism was the norm in Europe and his statements were not even considered reprehensible .
> There was already something about the music and the librettos which infuriated so many people , including so many music critics and composers who were his contemporaries . No composer has ever divided people to this degree for some reason .


The initial controversy was musical, between the "progressives" and "conservatives" in German music, but as Wagner became a more public figure his unconventional life drew a lot of tabloid-style attention. The infamous essay "Der Judentum in der Musik" did cause some outrage, perhaps partly because it dared say openly what a lot of people privately felt, but it was actually not very widely read, at the time of its publication or thereafter. There is no reason to think that Hitler ever read it, as he never referred to it, or to anything else Wagner said or wrote on the subject; he was actually more interested in the operas, both their ecstatic music and their mythological content, which for him projected fantasies of Teutonic heroism. Hitler's super-race agenda has been read back into Wagner and his libretti, but to do so in any specific or substantial way requires more than a little evasion and distortion of what's actually in the operas.

I agree that Wagner's art has always been intrinsically polarizing, even while his genius and importance as a composer of opera and musical innovator has never been seriously doubted or challenged. I think his work would still be the object of vigorous argument and analysis even if Hitler had never tried to co-opt his operas as soundtracks for the Third Reich and tainted our views of the composer. Despite over a century and a half of musical developments, Wagner's music retains a peculiarly aggressive, visceral impact, a sense of deliberately breaking down the frame of aesthetic distance which music, through its formal qualities, had possessed until then. This apparent assault on the senses and emotions, this bypassing of the critical and appreciative intellect for the undefended unconscious and the sensual body - explicitly dramatized in _Tristan und Isolde_ and expressed in its darkly churning, ecstatically soaring score - both alarmed and excited people in his time and still remains a cause of fanatical love in some and resistance, or even disgust, in others. In Friedrich Nietzsche it inspired both, and it obsessed his deteriorating brain to his last breath.

Wagner never was, and never will be, a composer to take for granted. He is no safe haven for those in search of the consolations of art.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

JamieHoldham said:


> If anyone at all is interested in Wagner as much as I am, interested in his life & opinions on subjects from art, music, theatre, politics and more, and who is open-minded and is not weak-minded enough to think of Wagner as just a unintelligent anti-semite, then here is a book he wrote about his life:
> 
> http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/b/b1/IMSLP93617-PMLP193126-RWagner_My_life_vol.1.pdf
> 
> ...


Regarding his memory, there is always the chance that he is 'misrepresenting ' those events from his earlier life. As for the length of the tome, what did you expect from the Composer of 5 hour plus Operas; that his autobiography would fit on a postage stamp?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

bz3 said:


> .., but I won't even waste the time it takes to read 2 pages on yet another *politically correct loser attempting to make his name by taking a great man down a notch. *


I would not suggest that Deems Taylor was a politically correct loser, or that he wrote the essay "The Monster" in order to either make a name for himself _or_ to take down a great composer. Rather, Taylor, a competent composer though largely self-taught (his "Through the Looking Glass" is a fine composition I've enjoyed on disc on several occasions) gained fame and respect for himself through his own work. He was a fine composer, a superb music critic and writer, and a tireless promoter of the arts, and was even deemed by another critic and arts editor as "the dean of American music", a title he probably deserved more than any other American critic in the opening decades of the 20th century.

All that said, I will contend that one thing Taylor would _not_ do is close his mind to reading something that might well inform his mind, one way or another. Only fools ignore learning. That's why they are fools. Deems Taylor was no fool. A reading of his essay "The Monster" reveals, in fact, that he was rather astute and talented ... and quite informed about and admiring of Richard Wagner, whom Taylor maintains is "one of the world's great dramatists; he was a great thinker; he was one of the most stupendous musical geniuses that, up to now, the world has ever seen." Those words by Deems Taylor are as true today as they were in 1937 when he wrote them. And they shall continue to be true probably as long as man has ears to hear and listens to music.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

amfortas said:


> _Wozzeck_ is based almost verbatim on Büchner's play...


This reminds me .... In my undergraduate college, some years ago (that _some_ being several decades now), I had the opportunity to study, among other languages, German with professor Herr Gast. It was as a final paper in my final course of the language that I chose to write a textual comparison of Büchner's original play and Berg's adaptation of the script. I was, after all, largely interested in Theatre at the time (more than in learning languages -- I recall taking German in order to (1) understand Bach Cantatas, (2) understand Wagner's operas, and (3) because the Theatre Director told me that German was a good language to have in order to continue studies in Drama, since many find drama texts were written in the language). But when it came to writing my final paper in German for Herr Gast, I did so more with an attitude of choosing a topic beloved by the instructor to maybe move his assessment of my grade into positive territory. (I had grave doubts about my command of the language, at the time.) And Herr Gast loved German opera.

Surprisingly (to me, at least!) I received an "A" for my paper on Berg's/Büchner's _Wozzeck_ in what proved to be the last formal language course I ever took, and I passed the class. The professor seemed to enjoy the paper, too, for he presented me with a copy of the opera.









He told me he had two copies and wanted me to have one. I didn't have one. I worked on my paper with a copy of the record and libretto I scrounged up by way of the college library. I still have the record he gave me in my collection today, and I treasure it. And my memories of Herr Gast. And of course of the German language which he allowed me my first views into.

And wow! That is one great opera! Maybe still today my favorite opera.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

^ That's a very nice story. Thanks for sharing!


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