# Celibidache: Yay or Nay?



## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

A Zen Buddhist, a possible sexist, a somewhat divisive conductor. Highly idiosyncratic in his interpretations... I was sceptical of his Bruckner because I knew he tended to favour tempi of the more ridiculous variety, but after hearing his 7th with the MPO, it actually works and ends up being seriously transcendent. Whether you like him or not, you can't deny his unfailing devotion to old Anton. 

So I ask you: what are your thoughts on Sergiu Celibidache, either as a Brucknerian or as a conductor in general?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I put this in the Poll/Games section but I'd like to hear poll-less discussion too.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I voted. How about you?


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I know some people thinks he's a bit of a joke, but honestly, despite the broad tempi, no one quite manages to bring out the profound, the exciting in Bruckner quite like Celibidache. After watching Mariss Janson's performance of the 3rd, its total dullness in comparison persuaded me that Celi's approach really worked. Even Karajan's 7th leaves me cold in comparison, too. That said, I voted 'yes', because a conductor can't just enter into the top rank on the back of one composer, and I've listened to some of his Brahms, Mozart and Haydn and it's merely solid and not remarkable.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Regarding his Bruckner 7th with the Berlin Philharmonic, the rehearsal was interesting to watch but the actual performance was painful and I gave up about 5 minutes into the second movement. I might try one or two of his other less extreme performances ... but I'm not in any hurry to do so.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Gramophone's Good Classical Guide called Celi "part genius, part crank." I haven't heard all his recordings - I know he wasn't always excessively slow - but his Bruckner 4 alone puts him in the immortal category, IMO.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

He's too slow on Bruckner for my taste.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

Yay. I don't feel like he's the final word on Bruckner (or any other composer) but I like his style. His Bruckner 4, 6, and 9 I like very much. I also like his Schumann and Brahms, but they are far from my first choice. He's at least interesting, which is much more than many conductors can say.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Way Yay. Too many reasons to mention at the moment, but it's not only for his Bruckner. Aside from his choice of _broad_ tempos (not in his opinion, _slow_ tempos) and his ability to _ let the music happen without it being forced,'_ his orchestras performed impeccably with fabulous commitment and focus. IMO, there's no one like him today, and I also find it virtually impossible to tell the professionalism of one orchestra from another, other than they sound competently generic. In the past, the major orchestras had a personality and character all their own that could be immediately identifiable, such as the Philidelphia Orchestra under Stokowski or Ormandy, or the Cleveland Orchestra under Szell, and the Vienna and BPO. Celibidache had his own unique characteristics and an understanding of the relationship between time and space like no other conductor I've ever heard - except perhaps the great Furtwangler, who also knew how to let the music unfold naturally and organically, in a way that greatly impressed Celi. So big Yay, though I can also appreciate why his consciously deliberate approach isn't for everyone.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> In the past, the major orchestras had a personality and character that could be immediately identifiable, such as the Philidelphia Orchestra under Stokowski or Ormandy, or the Cleveland Orchestra under Szell, and the Vienna and BPO.


While there certainly have been aspects of orchestras which were identifiable, I believe that in most cases it had a lot more to do with their chief conductor/music director ... Stokowski/Philadelphia, Ormandy/Philadelphia, Szell/Cleveland, HvK/Berlin etc.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Eh... Don't despise him, just doesn't quite do it for me, in anything.


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## staxomega (Oct 17, 2011)

Voted the second option. I'm always keen to hear a Celibidache performance if I haven't heard it before; introspective and methodical. His Bruckner is reference level and I revisit his Beethoven often.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

One of my favorites


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

Tallisman said:


> I put this in the Poll/Games section but I'd like to hear poll-less discussion too.


We have merged the identically named thread into this one with the poll attached.

Members can also discuss without having to vote. Better to keep all the discussion related to the OT in one place to avoid confusion and double postings.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

That's great about the merging of threads. I can't bear to vote on any of the polls; it's like putting these great artists or the music on the auction block. On the other hand, some of the discussions that go along with them are usually very worthwhile.


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I've had this set for a while but still listen to it quite frequently. Celibidache's early performances are very interesting and the "play everything as slowly as possible" approach that he was famed for late in his career is not in evidence here.


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## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Definitely nay as far as I am concerned. In his later years (really what he is best known for), too slow and eccentric for my taste.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

chill782002 said:


> View attachment 97235
> 
> 
> I've had this set for a while but still listen to it quite frequently. Celibidache's early performances are very interesting and the "play everything as slowly as possible" approach that he was famed for late in his career is not in evidence here.


If anyone is interested in this, it's a download at Presto for $130, but it's only $11.99 at Quboz. That's quite a difference.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

This is as much about discussion as polling, so I'm moving it to the Classical Music Discussion forum.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

I have a different opinion of his work than I did when I answered the poll. My view is noe somewhere between a "no" and an "eh." I like his EMI Bruckner...but for the most part he's not a good conductor.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm afraid I don't get why so many dislike his later work. OK it is often slower than we are used to but there is nearly always as much or more tension as any alternatives and he is adept at observing the pulse. Even at slow speeds he can make the lighter moments so light they almost float away and he builds magnificent or devastating (as appropriate) climaxes. And yet so many (presumably people who haven't listened very much?) find him indulgent or boring. It seems that slow speeds are enough on their own to stop many from trying to understand what a performer is doing (and often to go on to misrepresent it). 

What is speed? If you can realise the music with all the needed impact then it is not important if it is slower or faster than usual. Of course, you might insist that a composer intended a certain speed and that to ignore this is to break the law. But isn't it about realising the music? Very often with Celibidache's later recordings I feel totally confident that he has got under the skin of the piece better than almost anyone. The thing I find boring is the routine and there are many conductors who put me to sleep even when they scrupulously observe our current views on the "correct" speed. 

I'm less taken by Celibidache's earlier (and often quite fast) work. It's OK but I don't hear anything special. Perhaps if he had been willing to record in a studio he might have done better but the earlier live recordings often don't work for me.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

People often praise his power to make Bruckner or other composers sound convincing even at glacial speeds, but to me that's more proof of the multi-interpretative qualities of the music itself than the special skills of the conductor. Yes, you can stretch Bruckner, he's pretty elastic. And in his best moments, Celibidache didn't reach the breaking point. But often he did.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

RobertJTh said:


> People often praise his power to make Bruckner or other composers sound convincing even at glacial speeds, but to me that's more proof of the multi-interpretative qualities of the music itself than the special skills of the conductor. Yes, you can stretch Bruckner, he's pretty elastic. And in his best moments, Celibidache didn't reach the breaking point. But often he did.


I think it is partly true - great music can often respond rewardingly to a great variety of approaches - but I can't think of another conductor who sometimes adopted slow speeds and yet could do what Celibidache did (such as maintaining tension or lightness or building powerful climaxes) with slow speeds. For me, it was often as if he could reap the rewards of slow speeds without losing anything that more conventional approaches gave us.

I am not sure I would use the word "stretch" to describe what he does. Stretching leads to thinness (as well as ultimately risking breaking) but is that what Celibidache does with Bruckner? I don't think so. It is true that not all his Munich Bruckner recordings are equally successful - I think the 7th is not a complete success, for example - and that his route to Munich (recordings in Berlin for example) was more hit and miss. But I think nearly all his Munich Bruckner is stunningly successful. I don't think he "often" (or indeed ever) stretched Bruckner to breaking point. Definitely not!

And it wasn't only Bruckner. His Tchaikovsky stands with Mravinsky for me for power and excitement. His Brahms is very worth hearing. And so on. I don't especially like most of his Munich Beethoven, though.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

Celi's Bruckner is absolutely captivating. Allows us to hear much more of what is happening so the "slow" tempo is actually more music and happenings then less.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Whatever he does that turns on other people escapes me. I gave him lots of chances and he never did it for me. I not only did not find him controversial, I did not find him memorable in any way. He may as well have been Hans Knappertsbusch or Edouard van Remoortel.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

I think it is not completely unimportant that he refused recordings for a long time. He said that many ingredients of a rendition are going lost when listening to a recording, at first place the sonics of the location.

So evaluating him by recordings leads to obvious problems.

Ok, but the recordings exist. As far as I am concerned, these recordings are indispensable:

Bartók Concerto for Orchestra MPO
Brahms 1 RSO Stuttgart
Brahms 3 RSO Stuttgart
Bruckner 4 Swedish RSO
Bruckner 4 MPO
Bruckner 5 MPO
Bruckner 6 MPO
Bruckner 7 RSO Stuttgart
Bruckner 8 RSO Stuttgart
Bruckner 8 MPO
Bruckner 9 RSO Stuttgart
Franck Symphony D minor Swedish RSO
Sibelius 5 Swedish RSO
Tchaikovsky 5 MPO
Tchaikovsky 6 MPO


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

There are 'moments' in music beyond the capability of the description of words. Moments in Wagner and moments when Furtwængler has the baton. Celibidache is the third in this holy music-phenomenon trinity........


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

larold said:


> Whatever he does that turns on other people escapes me. I gave him lots of chances and he never did it for me. I not only did not find him controversial, I did not find him memorable in any way. He may as well have been Hans Knappertsbusch or Edouard van Remoortel.


Did you listen to his EMI recordings? Celibidache didn't become (in)famous for slow tempi until near the end of his life. Before then, he was nothing special.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Tallisman said:


> A Zen Buddhist, a possible sexist, a somewhat divisive conductor. Highly idiosyncratic in his interpretations... I was sceptical of his Bruckner because I knew he tended to favour tempi of the more ridiculous variety, but after hearing his 7th with the MPO, it actually works and ends up being seriously transcendent. Whether you like him or not, you can't deny his unfailing devotion to old Anton.
> 
> So I ask you: what are your thoughts on Sergiu Celibidache, either as a Brucknerian or as a conductor in general?


N...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ay.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I remain a Celibidache fan. Indeed, my CD shelves include the complete set of EMI boxes devoted to the conductor's work, over 50 discs worth of music. A check of my Discogs database for the name "Celibidache" provides 22 "hits", which includes each of those EMI box sets as well as the conductor's interpretation of Günter Raphael's Symphony No. 4 Op. 62 In C (1947) [on the cpo 3 disc set 777 563-2 featuring five of the composer's symphonies], Celibidache conducting Prokofiev's Fifth Symphony and the Mussorgsky/Ravel _Pictures_... [on Archipel ARPCD 0506], and the treasurable recording of Jacqueline du Pré performing Dvorak's Concerto with Celibidache leading the Swedish Radio Symphony [on Teldec disc 8573-85340-2, which includes the Saint-Saens' Concerto No. 1 with Barenboim conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra].

Celibidache may have an eccentric edge, especially in terms of tempo, but, as I once posted in an earlier thread on this Forum, contemplating the conductor's approach to Bruckner and his absence of Mahler music, he "seems to savor each note in his interpretations. What's affecting to me is that he gets me to do the same thing as I listen. Perhaps he is most effective in those Bruckner symphonies, where the orchestration tends to be dense (though not in a negative way, of course). Mahler as an orchestrator has a penchant for allowing individual instruments to shine out, to cut through the mix; and his overall writing is seemingly less 'dense' than, say, that of Bruckner. So perhaps we would gain little in hearing Celi do Mahler, since Mahler has already done the work of forcing us all to savor the notes."

Sure, I cannot ignore the fact that much of Celibidache's work proceeds slowly, and in an earlier thread on this website I pondered how long it would take him to perform John Cage's 4'33", but I remain a devotee. After all, we listen to music to hear what we can hear, and Celibidache gives us much to listen to, much to hear. I treasure that.

I perhaps don't program his recordings as often as I should for my (generally) daily listening sessions, but I do know that when I have some "extra time" to spare, a work from the baton of Celibidache is likely to find itself in the tray of my CD player.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

SONNET CLV said:


> his absence of Mahler music


Celi said: "He who says that he understood the development of the first movement of Mahler's 5th symphony is a liar."

However, there are some "Lieder" recordings.


SONNET CLV said:


> Perhaps he is most effective in those Bruckner symphonies


One of Celi's "Credo statements" was that in music the end is already contained/included/incorporated in the beginning. (A buddhistic view.) What follows the first few notes completely determines the rest.

Of course this view on musical development finds a good match if there are apotheoses of the first subject in the end. Look at Bruckner's 4th symphony for a perfect example. Or Sibelius 5th.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Just a few steps removed from Maximianno Cobra. Pass.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_Celibidache didn't become (in)famous for slow tempi until near the end of his life. Before then, he was nothing special._

Somehow this doesn't seem like what you meant to say (?)

And, yes, I heard him on EMI. I agree: nothing special.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Bruckner 4th, Celibidache


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

Of course I know Celibidache by name. But I've never listened to a recording of him. What's a good one to start with? (please also in good sound quality).


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Bruckner 4th or 6th from Munich (EMI)


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

Montarsolo said:


> Of course I know Celibidache by name. But I've never listened to a recording of him. What's a good one to start with? (please also in good sound quality).


I thought your avatar was a photo of Celibidache.


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## Montarsolo (5 mo ago)

Haha no, that's Paolo Montarsolo, the Italian bass. Personally, I think Celibidache looks like the old Giuseppe Di Stefano.

As a result of this topic I have read a few things about Celibidache. Very interesting and captivating. Recently I have listened to his EMI Brucker 4. This video, however, gave a very different picture of him. Unnecessarily insulting towards the orchestra and rather unsympathetic attitude. Seems to me a horror to have such rehearsals as a musician. The female violinist at the end of the video seems to confirm that.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

There's a Brahms cycle of his with the Munich Philharmonic, and an earlier cycle with the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR which Deutsche Grammophon has released. I though the Stuttgart cycle was normal: it was fine but nothing special. Haven't heard the Munich cycle; the first symphony increases from 47 minutes in length to 51 which is making me wary. I'd seen that video before and was likewise appalled. It was recorded in 1992, so not long after Karajan died; I can't help but think that he must have _still_ been bitter and resentful towards Karajan nearly forty years after Karajan got the Berlin Philharmonic job and Celibidache didn't. That dismissive remark about the Berlin Philharmonic strings' vibrato, when Karajan was known for building up a characteristic string sound in that orchestra, really tells me volumes. I will need to listen to Celibidache's Bruckner because I know that's what he did best and I'm not very knowledgeable about that territory.


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