# Buying a new Nibelungen (Wagner)



## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

My Nibelungen sucks. I love the Solti one because I had all my LPs...But which one is the best?

I love Furtwangler wich is sold in two versions, one economic, the other (Gebhardt) very expensive but the sound is better.

Quoi faire? What can I do? or should? I don't want to spend a fortune for something I already have...

Thanks 


Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't believe there _is _a 'best'; or rather, everyone's best will be different because we approach the _Ring_ in different ways. Which is the version you have already?

Speaking purely personally, of the sets I have (Bohm, Boulez, Goodall and Solti), the Solti is very significantly more satisfying as a complete stereo-drama experience. There is something very special about the way it brings a soundstage into one's room that none of the other versions achieve. The characters seem somehow _solid._ I was able to buy the Solti only relatively recently as an incredible less-than-half-price bargain, though for most of my listening life I've only had one version - Bohm - which I've always found exciting and satisfying. But these four are each in their way very rewarding.

The current fave rave is the Keilberth (Bayreuth) from about 1955: 'first ever live stereo recording' but I haven't heard it. I suspect I now have as many _Ring_ recordings as I can realistically use, so probably won't be tempted by it. It is very expensive.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Solti...aha*

I'd like to find a bargain...where? Not in Canada. 115$ includind shipping seems to be the best deal. I love Solti!

Thanks a lot for your help,

Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I'd like to find a bargain...where? Not in Canada. 115$ includind shipping seems to be the best deal. I love Solti!


Just keep checking the major sellers: MDT, PrestoClassical, Amazon etc. That's what I did, and one magical day there was the Solti set on offer at Amazon for £50. A few days later it was back up above £100.

You don't mention DVDs, but are you aware that the Copenhagen _Ring_ is currently on offer at half price at MDT and Presto?

MDT offer

Presto offer

The Presto offer expires in about 2 days time.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

*Studio: Karajan
Live: Böhm*


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I have Karajan's Tristan und Isolde and Parsifal and am quite enamored of Karajan's manner of conducting these works. I have Solti's Rheingold... which is quite powerful. What are your thought's on Karajan's and Solti's strengths and weaknesses... especially as involves the singers. I too am looking to set things right with a complete Ring in the near future.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

If I were to rate all the Rings I have heard, including the ones on DVD (and I don't listen to mono recordings):

Keilberth: 7.5/10. A true golden age of opera cast, near perfect with Windgassen and Hotter at their prime. As a whole easily the finest cast caught on stereo. Ruined by a conductor who's a mechanical time beater and can't give us any insights to the music. Sound quality is miraculous for a live recording from that period but not on the same level as the latter stereo sets.

Solti: 6/10. Eh.... overrated, the only truly outstanding singer is Nilsson (who can be heard better in Bohm's Ring). And of course Neidlinger. Both Windgassen and Hotter are pass their prime. Conducting from Solti is bombastic and lacks any depth. Mixing (and conducting) makes the orchestral too loud at the price of the singers. Weak Rheingold and Walküre, but the other 2 parts are better but not good enough to make the Solti set deserve its reputation.

Bohm: 6/10. Windgassen, already past his prime in Solti's set, completely ruins this set...... and he ruins not just Siegfried but Loge too. Theo Adam has never been that good a singer and he's like the poser boy for the dark ages of Wagerian singing. But Nilsson saves this set, the Solti set is little more than a warm up for her exceptional performance here. Bohm's conducting is a mixed bag, often he is guilty of being too fast and not giving the music the flow it needs, but often he reaches heights that both Solti and Karajan were not able to reach.

Karajan: 7/10. One of the best Rheingolds I have heard, exceptional Loge from Gerhard Stolze, very good Wotan from Steward, has got Vickers!!!!, unique chamber like conducting from Karajan, good Walküre but Siegfried and Götterdämmerung ruined by a Dernesch who's a bunny that can't be dramatic and 2 extremely miscasted Siegfrieds. Still overall cast is not as bad as what many claimed.

Janowski: 5/10. Extremely good conducting from Janowski plus Matti Salminen are not enough to save a lackluster main cast (Kollo comes off as a poor man's Windgassen).

Boulez: 3/10. The staging deserves the reputation of being revolutionary (for better or for worse) but you know that the cast is awful when Hofmann is singled out as being the most exceptional of the cast. To be more fair Salminen, Jones and Altmeyer are great too but an awful Wotan and Siegfried completely sinks the ship. Boulez deserves all the complains his conducting received too.

Barenboim: 8/10. Barenboim gives a extremely Furtwängler-like performance and is one of the best Wagner conductor I have heard. Tomlinson, Jerusalem and Clark are exceptional and some of the finest I have heard singing their roles. The Brünnhilde here isn't very talented, which is a shame because she actually is a good actress and gives an highly intelligent account. At the very least she does not ruin the set. The guy who sang Fafner/Hagen, on the other end, does ruin the set but if you can tolerate him plus the ample amount of stage noise too it's IMHO the best Ring available on CD. 

Haitink: 6/10. Not bad really. Would have been much, much better if not for the awful Éva Marton and Theo Adam (him as Alberich?!?!? LOLZ). I am not as big a fan of James Morris as others (he's much better as a Iago or Macbeth than any Wagner role), but the set does have Jerusalem's Siegfried which is a huge plus. Conducting from Haitink is alright but could have been better. 

Levine (DVD): 6/10. A solid cast (Behrens isn't that good but isn't bad either), but I am not a fan of Levine when it comes to conducting Wagner. Still a decent introduction for someone new to Der Ring.

Schønwandt: 6.5/10. This one gets a bad reputation because its staging is considered to be the Eurotrash among the Eurotrash, but musically it does spot a extremely good Siegfried (who also sang Siegmund) and reasonably good Wotans (2 Wotans sang here) and Brünnhilde. The rest of the cast is not bad too (save the Hagen). The conducting isn't exceptional but isn't bad either.

Mehta: 8.5/10. This very recent Ring from Valencia needs to be hyped much more; the musical qualities are amazing with good conducting from Mehta and one of the best Brünnhildes I have ever heard (destroying the myth that there are no good talents in the modern Opera houses), supported by a extremely good Wotan and a reasonably good Siegfried. And Matti Salminen, while clearly showing signs of aging, is still a powerful force to marvel at. The rest of the cast has no major weak links, very good Siegmund and Sieglinde, decent Loge and a Alberich that could be better but is tolerable. This could very well be the closest we have gotten to a perfect Ring. I know that many will hate the staging, which while beautiful does break numerous rules as to how Opera should be staged (worst of all how they made zero attempt at hiding the stagehands) but musically the Valencia Ring is easily worth its money.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Keilberth '55
Knapertsbusch '57
Krauss '53


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*My heart finally decided*

I have read you guys...A DVD...I already have Levine's and it's quite good.

I bought the one I had on LP, Solti, I love the Solti sound...I am used to it. Is the very first Nibelung I 've ever heard...and it was in my heart...The choices were too many...LOL and difficult.
Furtwangler was an interest choice but the version with "good sound" (Gebhardt) was 150$ (too much for this poor guy here). I paid 115$ for my Solti, shipping included. When you live in Canada, shipping is never included when you use Amazon.com and prices are higher on Amazon.ca.

Thank you very much for your kind advise.

Martin Pitchon


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> _What are your thought's on Karajan's and Solti's strengths and weaknesses... especially as involves the singers._


Both Karajan and Solti are *studio* readings where everything is well controlled: the vocalists and orchestras are well balanced, etc.

Solti has some good sound effects (perfect hammering with Siegfried and 'notung', etc.).

Solti has some of the great Wagnerian vocalists at the end of their careers.

Karajan has some newer Wagnerian vocalists hand-picked by HvK himself.

Both readings are almost equally superb; almost impossible to call one better than the other.

Of *live* readings, Böhm's 1967 Bayreuth can't be beat (features most of Solti's studio vocalists):
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Ring-N...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1292260597&sr=1-2


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> it was in my heart.


This is the key thing, isn't it, and this is why there'll never be, and _could_ never be, a 'best' _Ring_. I understand entirely what you mean about the 'Solti sound'. I lived with Bohm for 30 years and thought it was wonderful (still do), but I'd heard Solti's _Gotterdammerung_ once, just once, at someone else's home, and I knew that for me, that was The One, and one day I'd have to have one. Well, it was 'The One' _in a way_. Because there are other 'The Ones'. There's the Boulez, with Gwyneth Jones (rated 3/10 by someone else above), which was transmitted on radio sometime around 1980, and which provided me with one of the most memorable weeks of my life, with a whole new take on the_ Ring_. The Goodall, with Rita Hunter singing a new kind of Brunnhilde, sweeter, gentler in some ways, tugs at my roots, partly because I've seen it (and her) performed live. I wouldn't know how to define any meaningful scoring system by which to compare them all. They are all, in their ways, 'in my heart'.

I wish you many hours of deep enjoyment of your Solti set.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> What are your thought's on Karajan's and Solti's strengths and weaknesses... especially as involves the singers


Karajan was armed with secret weapon that turns all Solti's efforts to dust. This weapon is called Jon Vickers and makes best Siegmund I ever heard. I'm not sure about other three, but Solti's Walkure is absolutely nothing in comparison with Karajan's.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Aramis said:


> _Karajan was armed with Jon Vickers and Solti's Walkure is absolutely nothing in comparison with Karajan's._


Agree on both counts. Karajan's *Valküre* is especially fine.

Somewhat prefer Solti's *Siegfried*, however.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Aramis said:


> Karajan was armed with secret weapon that turns all Solti's efforts to dust. This weapon is called Jon Vickers and makes best Siegmund I ever heard. I'm not sure about other three, but Solti's Walkure is absolutely nothing in comparison with Karajan's.


To be fair Siegmund is not a role that needs an exceptional singer to shine, unlike Siegfried. James King certainly wasn't a bad Siegmund, although not one on the level of Vickers. What sinks Solti's Walkure is the fact that for an opera that is carried by Wotan for much of Acts 2 and 3 they made the massive mistake of recording Hans Hotter when his wobble had reached ridiculous levels. And it's a pain to hear him singing there, compared to his performance in Keilberth's set. But he isn't that bad in Solti's Siegfried, although signs of his age are still there.

Too bad Karajan didn't get Vickers to sing Siegfried; his set would have been much more interesting if he did.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> To be fair Siegmund is not a role that needs an exceptional singer to shine, unlike Siegfried.


I would say that ending of 1st act requires someone with marvelous voice - with Vickers all that begins after "Siegmund heiss ich bla bla bla" is one of greatest highlights of the whole cycle.



> Too bad Karajan didn't get Vickers to sing Siegfried


I think it was Vickers who decided not to sing Siegfried - I remember reading an interview with him in which he claimed to be interested in singing this role but in circumstances that occured at that time he had no time to go through all difficulties of it's vocal lines.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Karajan was a Facist...I know he was good...WWhen I had no choice I bought music conducted by him...

Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I doubt if there will ever be a better time to buy a set of the legendary _Bohm_ (Bayreuth) Ring than now. These current prices on Amazon are crazy:

Bohm on Amazon US

Bohm on Amazon UK


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I'm sorry....Too late...I have already bought Solti (a teenager love....LOL)

Martin


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Well I didn't really need another Ring, but at that price I had to jump in. Thank you for the head's up.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I'm sorry....Too late...I have already bought Solti (a teenager love....LOL)


You sure you don't want one at this price? Look at the Marketplace seller: $5.87 on Amazon US - the price of a couple of beers?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Rangstrom said:


> Well I didn't really need another Ring, but at that price I had to jump in. Thank you for the head's up.


I almost don't believe it, though the seller claims to have 10 left in stock at this moment, and he seems to have plenty of good feedback.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Elgarian said:


> You sure you don't want one at this price? Look at the Marketplace seller: $5.87 on Amazon US - the price of a couple of beers?


What??? I missed this! I'm a college student and I missed a $6 Bayreuth Ring cycle! This is ridiculous.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> You sure you don't want one at this price? Look at the Marketplace seller: $5.87 on Amazon US - the price of a couple of beers? [/QUOTE
> 
> PLEASE SEND THE REFERENCE!!!! EMERGENCY!!!!1
> 
> Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*?*

are you speaking about this?...very cheap...

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelung...r_1_67?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1292465103&sr=1-67

Not about the Böhm version, are you?

mmm...Buy cheap buy twice?

Martin


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## Eusebius12 (Mar 22, 2010)

Go to a Nibelungen shop. Or if you can't find one, go to a Nibelungen shop shop. Don't look for a Nibelungen shop shop shop, that would be silly.
Also, if bying dwarves is illegal in your country, try acquiring a dog

HTH


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The prices on the Ring cycle yo-yo up and down all the time. Yesterday I saw the Haitink version for $38. Today its back up to nearly $70. A few days ago the Solti set was going for $70 now its back up to $90. It seems the best thing to do is have the set one is after and then watch the market prices for a good buy... and don't wait too long!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> Go to a Nibelungen shop. Or if you can't find one, go to a Nibelungen shop shop. Don't look for a Nibelungen shop shop shop, that would be silly.
> Also, if bying dwarves is illegal in your country, try acquiring a dog
> 
> HTH


Are you all right?

Martin


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Eusebius12 said:


> Go to a Nibelungen shop. Or if you can't find one, go to a Nibelungen shop shop. Don't look for a Nibelungen shop shop shop, that would be silly.
> Also, if bying dwarves is illegal in your country, try acquiring a dog
> 
> HTH


I prefer going straight to Alberich's jewelry store unlimited, for those with delusions of grandeur.

Also, people in my country don't believe in dwarves for some reason (some strange thing called "scientific reasoning"... I seriously don't understand its dogmaticism), so there aren't any laws against them.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> PLEASE SEND THE REFERENCE!!!! EMERGENCY!!!!1


I _did_, Martin - see #17 above for the links. But not surprisingly they didn't stay around for long, and I see they've all gone now. It really was the _Bohm/Bayreuth_ version that they were selling for $5.99. I ordered one myself to give to a friend.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

World Violist said:


> What??? I missed this! I'm a college student and I missed a $6 Bayreuth Ring cycle! This is ridiculous.


Sorry about that, WV - it really does seem as if it was a blink-and-you-miss-it-affair. I'm wondering, this morning, if someone had made a mistake in the listings. Last night I browsed the seller's other stuff and found the Karajan _Ring_ on offer for *just under $10*, with 10 sets in stock. I placed an order immediately, just before going to bed. This morning I see the same seller still has them in stock, but the price is now $119.47 - as if the error had been spotted and corrected.

This morning my Amazon account registers the Bohm and Karajan sets as being 'prepared for dispatch', so it really does look as if it wasn't all a dream!

*Later:* I should add that even the basic Amazon price for the Bohm at the moment is the lowest I'd ever seen until yesterday, and by a substantial margin ($38 at Amazon US, £30 at Amazon UK, post free).


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

My version of this epic work is the (DVD) Metropolitan Opera Orchestra & Chorus under James Levine. It's good enough for me.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I feel stupid!*


```
I did, Martin - see #17 above for the links. But not surprisingly they didn't stay around for long, and I see they've all gone now. It really was the Bohm/Bayreuth version that they were selling for $5.99. I ordered one myself to give to a friend.
```
Please give me the link! I will run for it!!!!!!

Martin, who loves Nibelungen


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I will run for it!!!!!!
> 
> Martin, who loves Nibelungen


Well even though the really crazy bargain bonanza is over, the Bohm is still sitting there on Amazon for $38, which is as cheap as you're ever likely to see it again:

Bohm _Ring_ for $38


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks...But I've just bought the Solti's for 108$ If it was a ridiculous bargain (i.e. 12$)...I'd buy it again anyhow...

Thanks again.

Martin


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## Geronimo (Dec 3, 2010)

I ordered that Böhm Ring for £5.26 a few days ago, but now I got a mail that the order has been cancelled (without any reason given). It was too good to be true... Did anyone of you had more luck?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Geronimo said:


> I ordered that Böhm Ring for £5.26 a few days ago, but now I got a mail that the order has been cancelled (without any reason given). It was too good to be true... Did anyone of you had more luck?


Alas no. I had an email this morning just like yours. Clearly the listing was a mistake on someone's part. I expect the $10 Karajan _Ring_ I ordered from the same seller will be cancelled too.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Well...I paid my Solti a "normal" price (108$) I don't think this will be cancelled...

Martin


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Elgarian said:


> Just keep checking the major sellers: MDT, PrestoClassical, Amazon etc. That's what I did, and one magical day there was the Solti set on offer at Amazon for £50. A few days later it was back up above £100.
> 
> You don't mention DVDs, but are you aware that the Copenhagen _Ring_ is currently on offer at half price at MDT and Presto?
> 
> ...


copenhagen? you shouldn't be reccomending evil productions with babies!!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> wish you many hours of deep enjoyment of your Solti set.


Karajan..I think I have some Richard Strauss by him. I like this guy even if he was a Nazi fanen I wa

But as I mentionned before...Solti was my first LP when I was a teenager and I still remember the power of these operas..The one I prefer is Siegfried...I think I feel like him sometimes!

Thanks again.

Martin


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Damn! No easy way about acquiring an ideal Ring cycle. The Kraus recordings is currently selling at a little over $40.00 and has been acclaimed as among the best casts of singers... but I'd like a more modern recording (or both). Karajan seem to be the ideal choice for the first two operas, with Solti for Siegfried and Gotterdammerung... but currently Solti's Siegfried is selling for $96... almost as much as the entire cycle by him!!!

Any thoughts on the Leinsdorf Walkure?


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Kraus or Krauss ? I've just seen one for 19.00$

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Nibelung...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1293470302&sr=1-4

BUT!!!!!! If you read carefull the comments, there is at least 4 spoiled tracks...Buy cheap, buy twice!

Martin

I bought the Solti one at the price you mentionned plus shipping because I live in Canada and shipping for Canada is never free. A bad strategie from Amazon.com.

Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Update on the bargain Karajan _Ring_ fiasco: it took over a week of 'Shipping soon' being registered in my Amazon account but then, as I expected, the seller cancelled the order.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Elgarian said:


> Update on the bargain Karajan _Ring_ fiasco: it took over a week of 'Shipping soon' being registered in my Amazon account but then, as I expected, the seller cancelled the order.


Don't worry John, Luca Brasi an I are on our way to seller's house.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

I did get the Bohm ring (but I took the $38 offer). I'm looking forward to giving it a spin. The Krauss ring is good, but I would put it behind the Furtwanglers (poor sound and all), the '55 Keilberth and the '56 Knappertsbusch. I haven't heard either the '57 Kempe or the '37-'41 Met recordings (even though at <$50 I'm tempted).


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*paying a logical price, getting the ring*

I've got today my Solti ring, a beautiful box containing 4 subboxes with 4 magnificient booklets with the words (Libretto) of every opera....NEW! GREAT! 108$ with the shipping, it is the price...Is not the best price but I don't care...I quit smoking 6 months ago, it is my reward. I deserve it.

:tiphat:

Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I've got today my Solti ring, a beautiful box containing 4 subboxes with 4 magnificient booklets with the words (Libretto) of every opera....NEW! GREAT! 108$ with the shipping, it is the price...Is not the best price but I don't care...


Quite right too, I say. It's worth every penny (or cent). And more.



> I quit smoking 6 months ago, it is my reward. I deserve it.


Good luck with that. You'll reap enormous benefits. My entire library of books and CDs, and all the art on my walls, has been bought with the money I've saved from giving up smoking 22 years ago.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Omg*

Guys! you are making my life very complicated...I'm getting more and more confused...I think Furtwangler is great...but they're speaking about the Gebhardt version having the best sound....God! (it is more expensive)

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...popular&field-keywords=nibelungen+furtwangler

and some of you are not even mentionning Fürtwangler!

I am not rich, alas, I bought the Solti one...Am I stupid? Maybe...

But...what you don't se you don't miss.....LOL

Bye

Martin


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

My Karajan Ring arrived right after Christmas. It comes in the same format as the Solti: 4 separately boxed operas with big booklets and complete librettos housed in a larger box. So far I've listened to _Das Rheingold_ and _Die Walküre_ all the way through (stupendous) after having read through the synopsis. Upon my first hearing of most operas I simply listen to the music after having read the synopsis. I'll follow this with a second listen following along with the libretto. Obviously it will take a while to get through the Ring... especially considering the fact that I have a second Ring (Krauss) also coming. If the work wasn't so brilliant I could get frustrated considering that I have several operas waiting in the wings including Richard Strauss' _Die Frau Ohne Schatten_ and _Elektra_, Goldschmidt's _Der Gewaltige Hahnre_i, Bellini's _I Puritani_, Puccini's _Turandot_, Bizet's _Carmen_... and several others.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Guys! you are making my life very complicated...I'm getting more and more confused...
> 
> I am not rich, alas, I bought the Solti one...Am I stupid? Maybe...


Of course not. Heck, I spent a large chunk of my life longing to own a Solti _Ring_ (having heard it only once, long ago) - an ambition which I only achieved quite recently. I don't actually _need_ the other_ Ring_s I own now, and if I had to give them all up except one (which I'd be reluctant to do, but it wouldn't break my heart), the Solti would be the one I'd keep. Judging from what you've said elsewhere, it seems to me you'd be pretty much the same.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Danke schön my friend!!!!!!!*


```
Of course not. Heck, I spent a large chunk of my life longing to own a Solti Ring (having heard it only once, long ago) - an ambition which I only achieved quite recently. I don't actually need the other Rings I own now, and if I had to give them all up except one (which I'd be reluctant to do, but it wouldn't break my heart), the Solti would be the one I'd keep. Judging from what you've said elsewhere, it seems to me you'd be pretty much the same.
```
LOL

The other guy (the Karajan one) made me suffer!!!!!! I would like to have at least 4 versions! LOL. Furtwangler seems to be awesome too! LOL About modern ones, some guys spoke about Daniel Barenboim...

But old flavor is good flavor...like Svetlanov for Rimsky-Korsakov operas, Gergiev is very B-A-D

Martin


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Actually, I found the Gergiev recordings of The Invisible City, Maid of Pskov, Tsar's Bride and Sadko to be very enjoyable. The recent DVD of Benvenuto Cellini is also musically strong (I don't love the staging) and demonstrates that his talent is not limited to Russian opera.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Gergiev*

is enjoyable when you don't know about SVETLANOV'S recordings....gergiev is sh...for export, Svetlanov is Russian tradition....But each Rimsky-Korsakov has ITS version...

http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Eve...r_1_14?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1293993678&sr=1-14

is the very best for Christmas eve....but you have to be "rich"...

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*I received my second Nibelung today*

Krauss.

I listened the one I prefer until now: Siegfried.

Mime is better than Solti's, Solti's Siegfried seems much better though.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Tentation....*

I am a compulsive buyer...

I got today my third version of Nibelungen:

1. Solti (two weeks ago)
2. Krauss (last week)
3. Furtwangler, Ilona Steingruber, Kirten Flagstad (today)

I am weak!

Martin


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I am a compulsive buyer...
> 
> I got today my third version of Nibelungen:
> 
> ...


Tomorrow, Karajan. Next week, Bohm; the week after, Kielberth; the week after that, remortgage the house ....


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

> Tomorrow, Karajan. Next week, Bohm; the week after, Kielberth; the week after that, remortgage the house ....


LOL I promess you, I will not...I have with this for at least two or three years...

Martin


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*In search of a touchstone 'Valkyrie'*

I've had this on my mind for a while... and I suppose this isn't the best place to make this musing- 
but I have to get it off my chest--

In my dilettante opinion, I don't believe there has been a recording of *Die Walküre* that has separated itself from the pack in the same way that (for instance) Solti's _Götterdämmerung_ has. I hope this doesn't sound too curmudgeonly, or too critical of the available efforts. Many of them are very good. I appreciate the artistry of several. I still find myself longing for that (possibly unattainable) reference recording of *Die Walküre*.

Which brings to to the fact that the MET will be putting on *Die Walküre* this season. So- I think to myself- why not _them_? Why not _now_? Of course, reference performances of a great masterwork might be a once-in-a-generation thing. The odds are it probably won't happen. However, if one looks carefully, one finds it hard to make the case that it absolutely _can't_ happen. Lets look at each component-

1) The MET orchestra- a virtuoso ensemble, acknowledged as one of the finest in the world.

2) Maestro Levine- coming into the prime of his interpretive powers. Has conducted more performances of 'Walküre' on the opera boards than anyone living. Totally capable, if his health holds up.

3) The singers- as always, the biggest Wagnerian challenge of them all... but really, not _as much_ of a challenge as in many other Wagner operas. You don't need a Melchior to sing Siegmund excellently. You don't need Flagstad to sing Brünnhilde... not in the _tessitura_ that she has in _Die Walküre_. Not to minimize the artistry required... but Sieglinde is not the most transcendently challenging of the Wagner female-leads. The highest 'degree of difficulty' component will probably be Wotan. From the standpoint of nailing the music, there's no reason why Terfel can't handle THAT aspect. The less-tangible things- remembering the lines, achieving the characterization- those will require some keen diligence. But what glory there would be in turning in a generational effort here!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Met is very good...*

I already have the DVDs by the Met. It is wonderful...but the singers are not the best.

Krauss is really disappointing, the CDs made in portugal have a dark sound.

Solti is good.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Chi--Certainly there is a chance as the cast seems promising although I was not very impressed by Terfel's Wotan in Rheingold. Still I'm looking forward to Kaufman and Voigt. For me Brünnhilde is key to a good Walküre. A number of otherwise decent rings suffered with Behrens, Jones, Marton usw. I hope Voigt can pull it off.

I don't know which Walküres you've heard but I really like the '54 studio Furtwängler (Mödl for Brünnhilde) and the two live Keilberths (one with Mödl again, the other with Varnay) from '55.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Krauss is really disappointing, the CDs made in portugal have a dark sound.

Which set did you buy? My set of Krauss' Ring was manufactured in the US. The sound is certainly not as good as that of Solti or Karajan... but I expected as much from a live recording from 1953. The orchestra is a bit submerged in comparison with the voices, which are magnificent and magnificently recorded. I don't find it "dark" at all...


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*U.S.A ? No Portugal!*


```
Which set did you buy? My set of Krauss' Ring was manufactured in the US. The sound is certainly not as good as that of Solti or Karajan... but I expected as much from a live recording from 1953. The orchestra is a bit submerged in comparison with the voices, which are magnificent and magnificently recorded. I don't find it "dark" at all...
```
Yours is American, good for you, my friend...Mine says clearly _made in Portugal_...like the Porto wine but less good. LOL. But maybe both sounds are the same, indeed the voices are a bit low and the orchestra could be better (My Furtwangler's Tristan is a 1953 version but remasterized and quite expensive, th esound is great)...But some singers are very good, I listened to Siegfried (I love this opera) and Mime was impressive...Solti is more "theatrical" but Krauss' MIme has a voice very pure...

Often you get for what you pay...Naxos is there to prove it. I paid for my Krauss 23$ Used) plus shipping: 7$ I paid 108$ for my Solti (brand new) including shipping.

Martin


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

My Krauss clearly says Made in the USA on the box, the booklet, and the discs themselves. It also gives the address of the manufacturer in Portland, Oregon. The vocals are stunningly recorded... especially considering the date, the venue (which did not allow for microphones placed openly) and the fact it was live. The vocals are sound forward in comparison to the orchestra... which is of course very important in Wagner. I would not want Krauss as my only Ring, which is why I purchased Karajan as well, but I would not be without the stunning singing. For better or worse, the Ring, like any number of other masterworks, has no clear definitive recording... but rather a number of great recording... each of which brings something unique. Unfortunately, where I can purchase 5 or 6 different recordings of the Goldberg Variations for a reasonable sum, the Ring demands deep pockets. My Karajan ran me $92 through a secondary dealer on Amazon. The Krauss was comparatively a bargain... yet still $38.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*my Portuguese version...LOL*

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000028CUF/ref=oss_product

I bought it used...and the CD says Made in Portugal 1994 MOVIEPLAY S.A. PORTUGAL (I can't help it). I believe you have a better one...It's ok, I am not complaining, I'm waiting for the last one, Furtwangler:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012IWJ7G/ref=oss_product

the recording is more recent.

Martin

P.S. Often when you pay less you are not lucky....


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*My other purchaes*

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000042H4/ref=oss_product

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001716JRE/ref=oss_product

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0026MJKD8/ref=oss_product

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002PV37M/ref=oss_product (Kozlovsky in Russian)

My weird taste....

LOL


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Krauss.
> 
> I listened the one I prefer until now: Siegfried.
> 
> ...


Martin, IIRC the Siegfried in both operas is the same singer--Windgassen. It's just that in the Krauss, Windgassen is performing in his Bayreuth debut as Siegfried, and he makes some goofs, primarily in the Forging Song (off the beat). By the time he's doing the studio recording for Solti, he's had a dozen years in the role. And of course the sound engineering is much better.

Bill


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

The BEST remastering of the Krauss Ring is without a doubt the one done last year by Andrew Rose at Pristine Classical:

http://www.pristineclassical.com/index2.html

Go to the Artist Index and search under "Krauss", or alternatively in the composer section under "Wagner".

His reworking of the sound is amazing. I have the Rheingold, Walkure and Gotterdammerung, still have to get the Siegfried, but can attest to the sound quality. These are downloadable files--though you can also buy them in CD format--but it's far more convenient to download the files and burn them to CD if you wish.

However, the price is not cheap. Pristine recordings are priced based on CD album equivalents, and also by the sound file format. If you get a lossless FLAC file of Siegfried, and in Ambient Stereo, it's 4 x 9Euros = 36 Euro for the opera. If you decide on straight mono in mp3 format it's a bit cheaper.

Orfeo has also recently released the Krauss Ring, and is supposedly an "official" version coming directly from the master tapes. I understand it includes the first few drum taps in the Siegfried Prelude that are missing in every other reincarnation (including the Pristine one). It is also not inexpensive. A review I have read said the Pristine version was still superior in sound quality, though, as they do a much more "interventionist" approach to restoring the sound.

Bill


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Bill*


```
Martin, IIRC the Siegfried in both operas is the same singer--Windgassen. It's just that in the Krauss, Windgassen is performing in his Bayreuth debut as Siegfried, and he makes some goofs, primarily in the Forging Song (off the beat). By the time he's doing the studio recording for Solti, he's had a dozen years in the role. And of course the sound engineering is much better.

Bill
```
You were right! is the same guy...But he sings much better with Solti...No way I'll buy another Krauss...I am getting poorer each minute. LOL

3 Nibelungen is more than enough!

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Furtwangler rules!*

I received today my last Nibelungen...Furtwangler...I had just the time to listen to it 10 minutes...but let me tell you...that is awesome!

Martin


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

An interesting site with various Wagnerian "experts" comparing and recommending the "best" recordings:

http://www.wagneropera.net/Recommendations/Recommendations-2008.htm

I will eventually end up fleshing out my collection of Wagner with Solti's Ring and Keilberth's. From all I have read... and from what I have heard so far the singers in Solti's set were not quite at the peak they were with Krauss and Keilberth. I'm debating the Furtwangler set... but it seems highly recommended.

My next purchase is Lohengrin. I'm looking especially at the Bychkov and the Kempe sets.


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> My next purchase is Lohengrin. I'm looking especially at the Bychkov and the Kempe sets.


Get the Kubelik set; it has on the balance the strongest cast of all the Lohengrins. The Abbado set is worth considering too.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Lohengrin*

Maybe a good choice...a low price for this new edition:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Loheng...1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295993318&sr=1-1-fkmr0

I have the same conductor...

Martin

I love Lohengrin. I have the DVD with Placido Doming, not the best but...it is ok.

You can follow the action better than a libretto...like in old days...

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*For Stluck...*

This Lohengrin is awesome and the price is awesome too:

http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.co...m=&submit=Find+Item&text=lohengrin&filter=all

I know this store, it is very serious. Original CDs.


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I received today my last Nibelungen...Furtwangler...I had just the time to listen to it 10 minutes...but let me tell you...that is awesome!
> 
> Martin


Which one? '50 at La Scala or the '53 Rome RAI performances?


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Maybe a good choice...a low price for this new edition:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Loheng...1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295993318&sr=1-1-fkmr0
> 
> ...


I have not heard it, but expect it would be good. Kempe did a great Meistersinger, with Grummer as Eva. Gorgeous.

Another Lohengrin you can get from Berkshire is the Archipel release of Eugen Jochum's 1954 performance at Bayreuth. This one has Windgassen in the title role, a searing Ortrud by Astrid Varnay, and the role of Elsa was sung by a lady making her Bayreuth debut--named Birgit Nilsson.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Which one? '50 at La Scala or the '53 Rome RAI performances? 

La Scala, 1950

Is it a good choice? The sound is great.

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*My Furtwangler...*

has Kisten Flagstad ans Birgit Nilsson...Can we ask better?

Martin


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## Bill H. (Dec 23, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Which one? '50 at La Scala or the '53 Rome RAI performances?
> 
> La Scala, 1950
> 
> ...


Of course! Which release/label? Just be aware that there are some cuts in this Ring. 
I have the '53, which is also great. 
Bill


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*mmm...*

a bad one, I suppose: Opera d'oro..a cheap brand, I think...Anyhow..this is my 3rd ring, I'm disappointed about the 1953 Krauss, Made in Portugal (bad sound) and happy with my Solti.

Good night.

Martin


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## gweiss (Jul 14, 2018)

Karajan was not a Facist....facts please not your opinion


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