# Who is Opera's greatest villain, I say Pinkerton, challenge me!



## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Like the title says, who is Opera's greatest villain and why? Sure there is Hagen but he was only carrying out the family honour, where Pinkerton is a fiend!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Don Giovanni...............


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Don Giovanni...............


Ouch, very good. Yet Pinkerton never gets his just deserts


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## Fagotterdammerung (Jan 15, 2015)

Opera houses with poor acoustics.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Regietheater directors!


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

If you lot are going on like this, how about this...










But seriously let us stick within the characters that are within the libretto. LOL


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Don Giovanni...............


... and Lulu. Wish they could pair up!

And Kostelnička from Jenufa. I both hate and respect her a lot.


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Loge said:


> Ouch, very good. Yet Pinkerton never gets his just deserts


Well he does get an American wife - just saying.

I vote for Scarpia


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

...and the statuette goes to ... IAGO!
First of all, Pinkerton is not inherently evil. He's an a**hole and unthinking but he has a change of heart and even excoriates himself for his past selfish behavior, meaning he has a conscience.
Scarpia is just doing his job but he's not thoroughly evil. He's egotistical and full of himself and enjoys exerting his power position. He even gives his vulnerability away when he says, "Tosca, you make me forget God!"
Claggart (who probably comes closest to Iago) has an axe to grind being that he has found himself in the untenable position of having romantic impulses toward Billy Budd and having to squelch them. He is mean spirited and psychologically insecure but that doesn't necessarily spell evil.
Don Giovanini is too busy being a Narcissist to be evil incarnate. Even he himself was shocked that he went as far as to kill the Commendatore. He actually didn't mean to do it.
Now Iago, on the other hand, is the epitome of evil because he has no conscience whatsoever. He admits it in the Credo. 
He couldn't care less about anyone or anything (including his own wife). He's doubly dangerous because he has a certain charm that wins over people (typical of psychopathic behavior)


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> ...and the statuette goes to ... IAGO!
> First of all, Pinkerton is not inherently evil. He's an a**hole and unthinking but he has a change of heart and even excoriates himself for his past selfish behavior, meaning he has a conscience.
> *Scarpia is just doing his job but he's not thoroughly evil. * He's egotistical and full of himself and enjoys exerting his power position. He even gives his vulnerability away when he says, "Tosca, you make me forget God!"
> Claggart (who probably comes closest to Iago) has an axe to grind being that he has found himself in the untenable position of having romantic impulses toward Billy Budd and having to squelch them. He is mean spirited and psychologically insecure but that doesn't necessarily spell evil.
> ...


Disagree about Scarpia, raping women goes well beyond "doing his job".


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

That one person who won't stop coughing.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

*Barnaba from Gioconda.......*

The final despicable act as Gioconda lays dying from self inflicted dagger in her chest (rather than give herself to the evil one)
Barnaba whispers to her that he just killed her crippled mother so she feel even more pain as she lay dying


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Henry VIII in Anna Bolena he executes his wife because he becomes tired of her.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Loge said:


> Like the title says, who is Opera's greatest villain and why? Sure there is Hagen but he was only carrying out the family honour, where Pinkerton is a fiend!


Oh come now, Pinkerton is a nice young man who acts without really considering the consequences of what he is doing. That young men can and do such things in their youth only to regret them later is a sad fact of life. His remorse is genuine. We don't know how he lives with himself later on. The opera ends with him finding the body of Butterfly. That is probably a pretty hard thing to live with for the rest of your life.

My money's on Giasone in *Medea*. He uses Medea to win the Golden Fleece, doesn't blink an eye when she kills her own brother to stop her father's pursuit of them. He then fathers two children with her and suddenly ups and leaves to go and marry Creon's daughter. Medea's revenge is possibly a little over the top, but really it serves him right. He knew what he was getting himself into.


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## Speranza (Nov 22, 2014)

I don't think Pinkerton is the greatest villain he does terrible things but there is a real humanity there, he wants to do what's right even if he can't see that it's not right at all.

Nero from L'Incoronazione di Poppea should get an honourable mention as a villain.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Lulu, surely? Queen of the Night? Claggart, or even Vere who seems to me a horrid preachy self-justifying %^*$?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Voting for *Scarpia*!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

DonAlfonso said:


> Disagree about Scarpia, raping women goes well beyond "doing his job".


It makes him sexually aberrant and a scumbag but rape in and of itself doesn't equate to evil incarnate. He has too much guilt for that.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> It makes him sexually aberrant and a scumbag but rape in and of itself doesn't equate to evil incarnate.


Ummmm WT actual F? Hope you or your family don't get raped any time soon!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> It makes him sexually aberrant and a scumbag but rape in and of itself doesn't equate to evil incarnate. He has too much guilt for that.


Can I believe you said that?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> It makes him sexually aberrant and a scumbag but rape in and of itself doesn't equate to evil incarnate. He has too much guilt for that.


I think maybe you should ask the victims of rape how they feel about that.

And, incidentally, I don't see Scarpia _has_ any guilt. He revels in his lasciviousness. Even his _Tosca tu fai dimenticar Iddio_ has a ring of sensuality in it. The man has no conscience at all.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Count Cenci in Berthold Goldschmidt's "Beatrice Cenci". This scumbag rapes his own daughter.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

So, I've thought again and decided that Giasone is just a louse rather than a real villain. Nor would I vote for Don Giovanni, who is just a libertine.

So I'm compiling a short list. On it at the moment

Scarpia
Iago
Barnaba
Ortrud
Paolo (*Simon Boccanegra*)
Claggart 
Pizzaro
Enrico VIII (*Anna Bolena*)
Count Cenci (though I don't know *Beatrice Cenci*, I'll take Alan Davis's word for it)

Pinkerton doesn't even come close to this bunch.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

What about Alberich? Of all the villains in opera, his actions probably caused the greatest amount of damage AND he survives the the events of Götterdämmerung. Give that dwarf the prize!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Good calls for Claggart and Scarpia. I'd be tempted to add Quint as well. The likes of Pinkerton, The Duke of Mantua and Sportin' Life are capricious and unsavoury on the whole but because they aren't evil in the true sense of the word doesn't mean they can't still be great villains. Pinkerton's remorse certainly doesn't excuse him in my book.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Pinkerton did nothing rascal compared to what Mazeppa did to Mariya and his father in Tchaikovsky's opera.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Those who took me down for my "rape" comment by things like "I hope you or your family don't get raped" or "ask the victims about that" (unkind and angry as those comments might be, like I really fluff rape off as a light thing) are not actually seeing the psychological side of this question. Rape in and of itself alone is not enough to necessarily equate to "evil" however dastardly and "evil" the act. 
True evil knows no attrition nor claims any guilts or responsibilities. 
A person can do evil things like Scarpia and Claggart, and yes, even a rapist, yet not be inherently evil.
A true evil person at no time takes responsibility for his/her actions and always has a ready and plausible excuse. 
(Remember the movie _The Bad Seed_?)


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

"Honorable" mention to Desportes in Zimmermann's Die Soldaten.
After making advances and winning Marie's hearth, when he gets tired of her first he tries to palm her off on his comrades, then he succeeds in getting rid of her by luring her to his supposed abode, where she is raped by his batman.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Those who took me down for my "rape" comment by things like "I hope you or your family don't get raped" or "ask the victims about that" (unkind and angry as those comments might be, like I really fluff rape off as a light thing) are not actually seeing the psychological side of this question. Rape in and of itself alone is not enough to necessarily equate to "evil" however dastardly and "evil" the act.
> True evil knows no attrition nor claims any guilts or responsibilities.
> A person can do evil things like Scarpia and Claggart, and yes, even a rapist, yet not be inherently evil.
> A true evil person at no time takes responsibility for his/her actions and always has a ready and plausible excuse.
> (Remember the movie _The Bad Seed_?)


And where do Scarpia or Claggart show any true remorse, pray? On the contrary both take great pleasure in their cruelty.

And incidentally the OP was talking about villains, not the nature of evil.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I think the Devil, aka Mefistopheles, Mephisto, Luzifer, Satan, etc., is opera's greatest villain.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> And incidentally the OP was talking about villains, not the nature of evil.


Yes you are correct that this should not be an exercise in evil per the OP's question, therefore in this context I will say only that the truest "villain" for me in opera is Iago, however I just noticed "Brotagonist's" post and must also concur that Mefistofele etc. fits the mold easily.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Yeah, I'd agree that Pinkerton takes the cake. Ooooh, I hate him! I can hardly listen to the third act of the opera without throwing things.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

I did an informal straw poll of fellow single mothers, and Pinkerton was resoundingly voted Most Evil Man. Until somebody writes an opera about Iain Duncan Smith, that result should stand.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I still say Don Giovanni is the guy :devil:


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

Claggart - the personification of evil


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

The biggest villain for me is the Queen of the Night in Die Zauberflote.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

The Inquisitor in Dallapiccola's Il Prigioniero. Deliberately inflicts the worst psychological torture on his victim.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The purest evil is the evil that seems to have no motive or cause. This eliminates most of Wagner's villains, who are usually outcasts or acting out of some frustration or humiliation. Alberich and Klingsor are classic examples of this. I'm with those who choose Iago and Scarpia. Moral monsters without justification or excuse.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

How about an honorable mention for Don Pizarro?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> How about an honorable mention for Don Pizarro?


On my short list (post #23)


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Nekrotzar. ........


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> How about an honorable mention for Don Pizarro?


Yes he would come quite high on the list!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

What about Hans Sachs. At the end of four and a half hours of bum numbing opera when everyone wants to get away to have a coffee or use the loo he decides to make a long winded speech about German art!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

I'd go for Scarpia as number one .... but there haven't been enough dishonorable mentions to Sergei from Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk - a thoroughly nasty chap all round


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> What about Hans Sachs. At the end of four and a half hours of bum numbing opera when everyone wants to get away to have a coffee or use the loo he decides to make a long winded speech about German art!


The best part!!!


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

If Pinkerton is the worst villain what about Chapelou in Le postillon de Lonjumeau by Adolphe Adam he leaves his wife for ten years and forget her.

Or Roberto in Le Villi by Giacomo Puccini.


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> If Pinkerton is the worst villain what about Chapelou in Le postillon de Lonjumeau by Adolphe Adam he leaves his wife for ten years and forget her.


by that token, many of us divorcees would also qualify as 'worst villain'


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Loge said:


> Ouch, very good. Yet Pinkerton never gets his just deserts


He wasn't villainous enough for heaven to show an interest...


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

Turandot. Has a succession of men who only want to love her beheaded, wishes to renege on the sacred oath when someone gets her riddles right, and goes so far to have Liu tortured in order to have Calaf's name so she can give him the chop too


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

AndyS said:


> Turandot. Has a succession of men who only want to love her beheaded, wishes to renege on the sacred oath when someone gets her riddles right, and goes so far to have Liu tortured in order to have Calaf's name so she can give him the chop too


You have a point.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

If we were discussing "Who's the biggest Karma Houdini in opera?", Pinkerton would be fairly high up on the list. He seduces and abandons Butterfly, gets himself a "proper" American wife, and only has to wallow in a bit of guilt and remorse without actually _doing_ anything about it. ("Addio, fiorito asil" was added in rewrites, because the opening audiences just _hated_ Pinkerton - quite deservedly.)

Most of the others mentioned get _some_ kind of comeuppance. But probably the #1 position belongs to the Duke of Mantua in _Rigoletto_, who is as unregenerate a lecher at the end of Act III as at the beginning of Act I, and probably never gives poor Gilda a second thought, if he even learns what happened to her.


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## Danforth (May 12, 2013)

If by "greatest" you mean "most evil," I'll make a few nominations:

Sebastiano from Eugen d'Albert's _Tiefland_
The Genoan nobles from Franz Schreker's _Die Gezeichneten_


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

OperaMaven said:


> If we were discussing "Who's the biggest Karma Houdini in opera?", Pinkerton would be fairly high up on the list. He seduces and abandons Butterfly, gets himself a "proper" American wife, and only has to wallow in a bit of guilt and remorse without actually _doing_ anything about it. ("Addio, fiorito asil" was added in rewrites, because the opening audiences just _hated_ Pinkerton - quite deservedly.)
> 
> Most of the others mentioned get _some_ kind of comeuppance. But probably the #1 position belongs to the Duke of Mantua in _Rigoletto_, who is as unregenerate a lecher at the end of Act III as at the beginning of Act I, and probably never gives poor Gilda a second thought, if he even learns what happened to her.


Just like there is a term called anti hero for non heroic heroes I think there should be a term called anti villain for non villainous villains. With this I mean persons that are not necessarily evil but do things that have bad consequences. For this Pinkerton and the Duke of Mantua but also Rigoletto are good examples.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Hagen.

Honestly, he's the most like real life. When people feel they can't connect or receive affection, they pursue personal power (if you can't join 'em, beat 'em)......most other villains are really just pursuing fleeting pleasures, but a real villain strives for something beyond the imagination of ordinary mortals.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Scarpia is remorsless. Its indicated that the false death ploy he uses with Tosca is a regular one he uses to rape women. He even indicates that he like it when the fight back. Murder Corruption Torture Blaspheny? Its Scarpia's Modus Operandi ( Pardon the Pun)

Azucena in Trovatore, Bit if a nastie pastie Throws her own child in the fire and basically gets Leonora and Manrico killed all in the name of revenge, and revels in it to the Count Di Luna ie her mother is avenged di Luna has killed his own brother.

Im no fan of The Duke of Mantua in Rigoletto either a vile seducer who mock his victims. No remorse shown
He's the Duke no quarter given. Opera doesnt end well either. What a [email protected]!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

AndyS said:


> Turandot. Has a succession of men who only want to love her beheaded, wishes to renege on the sacred oath when someone gets her riddles right, and goes so far to have Liu tortured in order to have Calaf's name so she can give him the chop too


I've never understood why so few people understand this. Turandot is a ******* sociopath, not a heroin


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I've never understood why so few people understand this. Turandot is a ******* sociopath, not a heroin


She should be a villain, but the convoluted logic of the opera paints her as a heroine. In an opera, you can get away with stuff that you couldn't get away with anywhere else.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I've never understood why so few people understand this. Turandot is a ******* sociopath, not a heroin


She should be a villain, but the convoluted logic of the opera paints her as a heroine. In an opera, you can get away with stuff that you couldn't get away with anywhere else.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Celloman said:


> She should be a villain, but the convoluted logic of the opera paints her as a heroine. *In an opera, you can get away with stuff that you couldn't get away with anywhere else.*


Such as wearing tights and a codpiece while weighing 300 pounds, standing in bright light in front of 500 people, waving a sword, and making hideous wobbly bellowing noises?


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Turandot is a scared girl that doesn´t want any man to take advantage of her.
The executions comes with the territory of being a princess in ancient and mysterious China.

Considering Pinkerton and the Duke of Mantua if they had tried to get Turandot they would have been executed immediately.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sloe said:


> Turandot is a scared girl that doesn´t want any man to take advantage of her.
> The executions comes with the territory of being a princess in ancient and mysterious China.
> 
> Considering Pinkerton and the Duke of Mantua if they had tried to get Turandot they would have been executed immediately.


Scared girl? In the same way as Stalin was a scared little man?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Turandot is a scared girl that doesn´t want any man to take advantage of her.


somehow that's not the impression I got 








> *The executions comes with the territory of being a princess in ancient and mysterious China.*
> Considering Pinkerton and the Duke of Mantua if they had tried to get Turandot they would have been executed immediately.


what's your point? sexually preying on 12-15 year old boys came with ancient Athens, but I think any remotely honest artistic depiction would still paint said individual as a villain


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> Those who took me down for my "rape" comment by things like "I hope you or your family don't get raped" or "ask the victims about that" (unkind and angry as those comments might be, like I really fluff rape off as a light thing) are not actually seeing the psychological side of this question. Rape in and of itself alone is not enough to necessarily equate to "evil" however dastardly and "evil" the act.
> True evil knows no attrition nor claims any guilts or responsibilities.
> A person can do evil things like Scarpia and Claggart, and yes, even a rapist, yet not be inherently evil.
> A true evil person at no time takes responsibility for his/her actions and always has a ready and plausible excuse.
> (Remember the movie _The Bad Seed_?)


Whatever you or others say about rape, Scarpia goes way beyond that. Remember in the second act he tells Spoletta to "fake" the execution of Mario, Tosca's lover, "simulata, come facemmo col Conte Palmieri." "Simulated, like we did with Count Palmieri." Well, the "simulation" turns out to be a real murder-execution, again, just like he did with Count Palmieri, no doubt to get his jollies off on the Count's former girlfriend. And not only is this man a _multiple murderer, _ he is a sadist who gets sexually aroused by Tosca's emotional pain, and presumably that of other men and women. He says to Tosca, "Come tu m'odi," "How you hate me," and when she answers "O Dio," he pounces on her and says "Così ti voglio!" "This is how I want you." To him the throes of love and the throes of pain are one and the same.

Not true evil? Really!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barelytenor said:


> Whatever you or other say about rape, Scarpia goes way beyond that. Remember in the second act he tells Spoletta to "fake" the execution of Mario, Tosca's lover, "simulata, come facemmo col Conte Palmieri." "Simulated, like we did with Count Palmieri." Well, the "simulation" turns out to be a real murder-execution, again, just like he did with Count Palmieri, no doubt to get his jollies off on the Count's former girlfriend. And not only is this man a _multiple murderer, _ he is a sadist who gets sexually aroused by Tosca's emotional pain, and presumably that of other men and women. He says to Tosca, "Come tu m'odi," "How you hate me," and when she answers "O Dio," he pounces on her and says "Così ti voglio!" "This is how I want you." To his the throes of love and the throes of pain are one and the same.
> 
> Not true evil? Really!


Absolutely spot on. And one of the reasons I find Gobbi so convincing in the role is that he gives Scarpia an outward air of sophistication, his impeccable manners making him a plausible figure in society. It makes his Scarpia more reptilian than ever.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> somehow that's not the impression I got


Despite that she sings this:



> TURANDOT
> In this Palace,
> thousands of years ago,
> a desperate cry rang out.
> ...


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Tosca...she kills the only interesting guy in whole opera too early. Now I have too endure that final scene knowing that Scarpia isn't coming back to spice things up. 

Get on with it and jump, already!


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Does an inanimate object count? Madame guillotine in _Dialogues des Carmelites_ is a rather memorable villain. You can even hear her in the music.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Celloman said:


> Does an inanimate object count? Madame guillotine in _Dialogues des Carmelites_ is a rather memorable villain. You can even hear her in the music.


Then what about the ring in the Ring Cycle?
Or the forget drink in Götterdämmerung?


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I have to say that I find Wurm (Luisa Miller) to be the scummiest villain, in all of Verdi at least. The Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlo is quite the heavy, but somehow it doesn't feel as personal.

And then on the other hand, there's Carlo Gerard (Andrea Chenier), who makes a complete turnabout and isn't even that awful anyway. Hard to even call him a villain - he's just the antagonist. (And is also more interesting than Mr. Chenier or Maddalena...)

We need a topic for whiny heroes who make you root for the villain...


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I imagine some have already mentioned Iago, who really has no redeeming features.

Scarpia is another candidate for top villain, however my personal top villain is the Grand Inquisitor partly because he uses religion to justify his evilness (trying to cover up his nastiness with the appearance of goodness ("yet God sacrificed his son for the greater good, so must you")), also because he has so little to gain from the freedom of the Flemish, the death of Rodrigo or the family tragedy that he helps shunt towards its dreadful end, but mainly because Verdi gives him some of the most subtly creepy music in all of opera.

N.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Even when other characters sing about the Grand Inquisitor, it's creepy. ("Ma ti guarda dal Grande Inquisitor...")


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Speaking of creepy, I nominate misogynist cult leader and talking corpse Titurel. I don't think he was consciously evil, but the deeper you look into _Parsifal_'s symbolism the clearer it becomes that his rigid, ritual-bound, anti-female religious order is the root of everything that goes terribly wrong in the realm. Klingsor, the obvious villain, is just Titurel's unconscious self, who by openly castrating himself and nakedly declaring his desire for power over the Grail (like Alberich's renunciation of love to get the ring) blows Titurel's cover of sanctity (as Alberich blows Wotan's pretense at upholding order and justice) and so must be banished, which like every act of repression makes him more dangerous.

We meet Titurel only as a voice from a coffin, implacably commanding his suffering son to go on preserving his father's death-in-life by an act of self-torture. I always found his hollow, unaccompanied voice rising from the grave extremely creepy, and I believe his death to be an essential condition, consequence, and symbol of the drama's resolution.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I vote for Don Basilio in _Il Barbiere_, he could give lessons to many of the others - and does in his aria 'La Calunnia' :tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I say Medea, such a horrible and revengeful woman and......... killing here own children .


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I might have to add Boris Izmailov from _Lady Macbeth of the Mtsenk District_ - a thoroughly nasty piece of work.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> We meet Titurel only as a voice from a coffin, implacably commanding his suffering son to go on preserving his father's death-in-life by an act of self-torture. I always found his hollow, unaccompanied voice rising from the grave extremely creepy, and I believe his death to be an essential condition, consequence, and symbol of the drama's resolution.


I think he is driven by the survival instinct, the sheer desire to prolong his existence even as a voice from the grave, whatever it may cost to others. Sort of strange for someone who believes in a Savior and the bliss of afterlife.

Hagen is intensely creepy: half dwarf half human, bred in a loveless act with the express purpose of being Alberich's stronger right arm in his plans of revenge, the man who never laughs.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> I say Medea, such a horrible and revengeful woman and......... killing here own children .


I think you're missing the point. Jason is the real villain. He uses Medea to get what he wants - the Golden Fleece - beds her, has two children by her, and then announces he's dumping her for Creon's daughter, a union which will give him greater social standing. It is clear in both Cherubuni's opera and the original Euripides that Medea comes to Corinth out of love and hopes to win Jason back. His flat refusal to take her back tips her over the edge. Both Norma and Medea contemplate killing their children, but, whereas Norma is only too human and cannot go through with it, Medea, the sorceress, eventually dominates Medea, the mother, and goes through with the deed. In Euripdes it is also clear that their children would have been nothing more than slaves in Corinth, and that her decision to kill them has as much to do with honour as revenge . No, Jason is the real villain, only showing remorse when he sees the outcome of his own actions.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Even when other characters sing about the Grand Inquisitor, it's creepy. ("Ma ti guarda dal Grande Inquisitor...")


Now here's evil incarnate. Next to Iago, I too vote for the blind man.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I have to say that I find Wurm (Luisa Miller) to be the scummiest villain, in all of Verdi at least. The Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlo is quite the heavy, but somehow it doesn't feel as personal.
> 
> We need a topic for whiny heroes who make you root for the villain...


Good idea! There are so many but the first that come to mind are: 
1. Werther, wimp personified. Get over it already!
2. Otello, stalwart warrior without a brain in his head who allows himself to be easily manipulated.
3. Alfredo. Maybe if he hadn't been such a wimp to Daddy, grabbed the girl and stood up for his rights instead of playing the dumb jerk at a cocktail party, things might have turned out differently.
4. Dr. Faust: a boring character with no backbone that makes you want to root for the devil himself.
5. Turandot, who whines about the evils of men yet allows herself to be overtaken by a power hungry entity that finally melts the ice in the name of sexual attraction.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Good idea! There are so many but the first that come to mind are:
> 1. Werther, wimp personified. Get over it already!
> 2. Otello, stalwart warrior without a brain in his head who allows himself to be easily manipulated.
> 3. Alfredo. Maybe if he hadn't been such a wimp to Daddy, grabbed the girl and stood up for his rights instead of playing the dumb jerk at a cocktail party, things might have turned out differently.
> ...


I assume your response here is light-hearted, but it's also somewhat misrepresentative.

As I've said before, you can't really judge these characters from a modern standpoint. To misunderstand Werther, as you do, is to misunderstand most of the Romantic movement, Goethe being one of its prime exponents. Goethe wrote Faust as well of course, and you appear to have very little understanding of this character too and the issues at stake.

Alfredo, or Armand in the original Dumas novel _La Dame aux Camelias_, which I'm guessing you have never read, is also from a different time. And anyway you rather misrepresent the story here. His father tricks him, remember, by going to see Violetta first without his son's knowledge. Alfredo only leaves Violetta (Margeurite) because he thinks she has gone back to the Duke. Hie heinous behaviour at the party, if anything shows he cares not one jot for what his father thinks. It is a knee-jerk reaction to the hurt he feels for Violetta's apparent betrayal. As soon as he is appraised of the truth, he runs back to her to profess his undying love.

Otello is easily manipulated, it's true, but surely the way that simple, good people, can easily be manipulated by evil people is the crux of the plot. It's as true today as it was then.

Turandot is a fairy tale and motives in the opera don't take too much scrutiny anyway, though I find Turandot's character a good deal more interesting than that of Calaf, who is almost a pantomime hero.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Oh good lord man, you sure took my post to be the gospel and I seriously doubt that anyone would consider that I actually misrepresented them.
Did you think I really was not aware of the true history of the pieces?
Simply having a little fun here. It's called, "letting one's hair down."
Life's too short these days not to have some fun and laughter.
Be cool, jewel!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Oh good lord man, you sure took my post to be the gospel and I seriously doubt that anyone would consider that I actually misrepresented them.
> Did you think I really was not aware of the true history of the pieces?
> Simply having a little fun here. It's called, "letting one's hair down."
> Life's too short these days not to have some fun and laughter.
> Be cool, jewel!


I don't mind people having some fun or even letting their hair down. I've been known to do it myself, probably in ways you couldn't even begin to imagine, though I don't actually have any hair to let down. :lol:

Still, Alfredo does pretty much put two fingers up to his dad, so it's best to get your facts straight, even when jesting - or being patronising to other members.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sorry you think of my post as "patronizing". Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Along the same lines you'd probably detest as well, I forgot the biggie of them all -- Ernani!
Enjoy your holiday.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Sorry you think of my post as "patronizing". Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
> Along the same lines you'd probably detest as well, I forgot the biggie of them all -- Ernani!
> Enjoy your holiday.


"Agree to disagree!". isn't that just more patronising nonsense? Usually when someone is losing the argument.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I bow to you sir.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think he is driven by the survival instinct, the sheer desire to prolong his existence even as a voice from the grave, whatever it may cost to others. Sort of strange for someone who believes in a Savior and the bliss of afterlife.
> 
> Hagen is intensely creepy: half dwarf half human, bred in a loveless act with the express purpose of being Alberich's stronger right arm in his plans of revenge, the man who never laughs.


No disagreement about Hagen. That scene of his conversation with Alberich is one of the darkest, spookiest things in opera - yet somehow sad as well, as Hagen is, as he says, never happy: he is spiritually empty. Wagner's villains are never superficial, never perfectly obvious and straightforward. But I think Titurel, with his alter ego Klingsor, is the subtlest portrait of depravity Wagner ever created.

Titurel's followers all hold him up as a saint - their "holy hero" - and he may have begun his career with the best of intentions, but our little glimpse of him, like our glimpses of so many real-life religious leaders, has to make us very uncomfortable. Titurel was given the privilege of protecting the Grail, the vessel that literally gives life to those who behold it. But the history of religion shows that human beings cannot be trusted with the power to define and dispense holiness, and that that power, like all power but more insidiously and hypocritically than mere physical domination, corrupts those who imagine themselves worthy to wield it.

Wagner was outspoken in his contempt for what he saw as the rigidity and repressiveness of religion, its dogmas and institutions and perversions of human nature, and I find in Titurel and his "church" a potent expression of that. Note that Titurel dies when Klingsor is destroyed by Parsifal; this is not mere coincidence, as nothing in this story is coincidence, because the wielders of white magic and black magic are fundamentally the same anti-life force, both wanting, not to honor and protect the Holy Grail, but to use and control it. Klingsor is merely Titurel's dark side, the cult leader with his power-lust and hubris unmasked, and Klingsor's self-mutilation and control over the woman, Kundry, is only the undisguised form of Titurel's repression of sexuality and control over the nourishing Grail. Parsifal's mission is to overthrow the entire repressive and depraved order, to cure its self-inflicted wound, and to heal the rift between the arrogant and overreaching masculine will (the Spear) and the "eternal feminine" fountain of life (the Grail).

Titurel, ignoring the physical and spiritual wound of Amfortas, lays upon the suffering son the duty to keep the father alive even in his tomb (what a perfect symbol of a moribund religion!), and commands the Grail to be ritually confined and released. But Parsifal, all compassion, grace, and freedom, heals the wound of Amfortas and says:

_Nicht soll der mehr verschlossen sein: 
Enthüllet den Gral! - Öffnet den Schrein!_

"No more shall it be hidden:
Reveal the Grail! - Open the shrine!"


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> No disagreement about Hagen. That scene of his conversation with Alberich is one of the darkest, spookiest things in opera - yet somehow sad as well, as Hagen is, as he says, never happy: he is spiritually empty. Wagner's villains are never superficial, never perfectly obvious and straightforward. But I think Titurel, with his alter ego Klingsor, is the subtlest portrait of depravity Wagner ever created.
> 
> Titurel's followers all hold him up as a saint - their "holy hero" - and he may have begun his career with the best of intentions, but our little glimpse of him, like our glimpses of so many real-life religious leaders, has to make us very uncomfortable. Titurel was given the privilege of protecting the Grail, the vessel that literally gives life to those who behold it. But the history of religion shows that human beings cannot be trusted with the power to define and dispense holiness, and that that power, like all power but more insidiously and hypocritically than mere physical domination, corrupts those who imagine themselves worthy to wield it.
> 
> ...


Your knowledge and understanding of Wagner knows no bounds. I am humbled.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Your knowledge and understanding of Wagner knows no bounds. I am humbled.


Second that. And I have something to aspire to.

Woodduck, that is a very interesting view of the opera. I've always thought the reason Titurel died was being deprived of the life-giving spiritual power of the Grail, which was dispensed during the rituals, for too long. And the reason he was deprived of it was that Amfortas kept the Grail under lock and key because he did not want its power to revive him again, because he was seeking death.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

anmhe said:


> What about Alberich? Of all the villains in opera, his actions probably caused the greatest amount of damage AND he survives the the events of Götterdämmerung. Give that dwarf the prize!


Does he survive? I tend to think so, but we don't know for sure. He is last seen alive in Siegfried, so his whereabouts are unknown.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> Hagen.
> 
> Honestly, he's the most like real life. When people feel they can't connect or receive affection, they pursue personal power (if you can't join 'em, beat 'em)......most other villains are really just pursuing fleeting pleasures, but a real villain strives for something beyond the imagination of ordinary mortals.


This! He is definitely the biggest villain in the Ring.....Alberich a close second.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Second that. And I have something to aspire to.
> 
> Woodduck, that is a very interesting view of the opera. I've always thought the reason Titurel died was being deprived of the life-giving spiritual power of the Grail, which was dispensed during the rituals, for too long. And the reason he was deprived of it was that Amfortas kept the Grail under lock and key because he did not want its power to revive him again, because he was seeking death.


On the literal level, that's right, of course. But in this opera, even more perhaps than the _Ring_, the literal story has symbolic meanings, psychological meanings, to which outward events provide clues. The search for _Parsifal'_s inner meaning has generated all sorts of wild theories and absurd interpretations, and a lot of people just throw up their hands, take it as a pseudo-religious fantasy, and enjoy the music - either that, or they avoid it because they find it distasteful or boring. I don't remember when it first came to me that Wagner was playing a gigantic magic trick with the story and turning our suppositions upside down, but it's really an aspect of his dramatic method which appears throughout his works. Things are not always what they seem, characters and actions are full of ambivalent motives and unexpected consequences, and there are forces at work greater than the characters can perceive or understand.

The idea that Titurel is the "villain" (even if unintentional) at the root of the evils which Parsifal must cure is pretty widely accepted now, and I don't think I hit on it independently, but my thinking about the opera goes back so many years now that I can't really remember. When I have more time, and a more suitable thread, maybe I'll talk more about what specific elements in the story, the music, and Wagner's philosophical thinking point most compellingly to this view. For now I'll only say that anyone who thinks that Wagner actually intends _Parsifal_ to be a story in which religion is celebrated and sexuality is renounced knows nothing about Wagner!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> I have to say that I find Wurm (Luisa Miller) to be the scummiest villain, in all of Verdi at least. The Grand Inquisitor in Don Carlo is quite the heavy, but somehow it doesn't feel as personal.
> 
> And then on the other hand, there's Carlo Gerard (Andrea Chenier), who makes a complete turnabout and isn't even that awful anyway. Hard to even call him a villain - he's just the antagonist. (And is also more interesting than Mr. Chenier or Maddalena...)
> 
> *We need a topic for whiny heroes who make you root for the villain*...


_Attila_

Whiny hero - Foresto
Villain to root for - Attila


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Becca said:


> I vote for Don Basilio in _Il Barbiere_, he could give lessons to many of the others - and does in his aria 'La Calunnia' :tiphat:


Definitely! I love this version.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Pizarro is quite the scumbag.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Badinerie said:


> *Im no fan of The Duke of Mantua in Rigoletto either a vile seducer* who mock his victims. No remorse shown
> He's the Duke no quarter given. Opera doesnt end well either. What a [email protected]!


True but strangely many women love/like/prefer such types...


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Flamme said:


> True but strangely many women love/like/prefer such types...


I don´t think the duke in Rigoletto is a villain. He is just a very unpleasant person.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Well, several people already took my first-round pick of The Grand Inquisitor from Don Carlos. Keeping in the same vein of megalomaniac religious fanatics, I'll give my second-round pick to the high priest Ramfis in Aida. Judge, jury, and executioner of Radames in a trial scene that still sends chills up my spine.


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