# What great performance of the past do you wish had been recorded?



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

We have snippets in wretched sound, but oh for the complete Tristan from La Scala with DeSabata conducting, Cobelli, Zanetti, Stignani.

La Scala Lohengrin, von Karajan, I think 1954 Schwarzkopf, and Modl's only Ortruds.

A complete Ponselle Norma.

A complete Suor Angelica live from La Scala with Augusta Oltrabella who apparently was incredibly moving in the role.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

A complete Ponselle Norma!!!!
A recording of Flagstad in her career before she took up Wagner.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Callas _lacunae: _*Turandot *from 1948/49, *Don Carlo *La Scala 1954, La Scala *Il Pirata *with Corelli, *Mefistofele *1954 Arena di Verona, Haydn *Orfeo ed Eurydice *1951 Teatro della Pergola, *Fedora *La Scala 1956, 1949 *San Giovanni Battista, *La Scala 1952* Il Ratto del Seraglio, *1950 *Il Turco in Italia. *Chicago 1954 *Norma, Lucia di Lammermoor, La Traviata, *1955 *Il Trovatore *with Jussi Björling.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Francasacchi said:


> We have snippets in wretched sound, but oh for the complete Tristan from La Scala with DeSabata conducting, Cobelli, Zanetti, Stignani.


Those bits are indeed thrilling. I also want all of the 1933 Met performance with Frida Leider. She sounds superb in the parts we have, including a sublime Liebestod. And then there's the Callas Isolde...


----------



## marlow (11 mo ago)

Beethoven playing Mozart piano concerto 20


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> Callas _lacunae: _*Turandot *from 1948/49, *Don Carlo *La Scala 1954, La Scala *Il Pirata *with Corelli, *Mefistofele *1954 Arena di Verona, Haydn *Orfeo ed Eurydice *1951 Teatro della Pergola, *Fedora *La Scala 1956, 1949 *San Giovanni Battista, *La Scala 1952* Il Ratto del Seraglio, *1950 *Il Turco in Italia. *Chicago 1954 *Norma, Lucia di Lammermoor, La Traviata, *1955 *Il Trovatore *with Jussi Björling.


I second all of these and add at least one *Tristan und Isolde *(probably Genoa 1948 with Max Lorenz) and one *Die Walküre*.

I'd also quite like to hear the Covent Garden *Norma *of 1957, when she and Stignani were forced to encore _Mira o Norma_.


----------



## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

MAS said:


> Callas _lacunae: _*Turandot *from 1948/49, *Don Carlo *La Scala 1954, La Scala *Il Pirata *with Corelli, *Mefistofele *1954 Arena di Verona, Haydn *Orfeo ed Eurydice *1951 Teatro della Pergola, *Fedora *La Scala 1956, 1949 *San Giovanni Battista, *La Scala 1952* Il Ratto del Seraglio, *1950 *Il Turco in Italia. *Chicago 1954 *Norma, Lucia di Lammermoor, La Traviata, *1955 *Il Trovatore *with Jussi Björling.





Tsaraslondon said:


> I second all of these and add at least one *Tristan und Isolde *(probably Genoa 1948 with Max Lorenz) and one *Die Walküre*.
> 
> I'd also quite like to hear the Covent Garden *Norma *of 1957, when she and Stignani were forced to encore _Mira o Norma_.


I’d also add a live Gioconda from Verona 1947 or La Scala 1952 as well as the Rome and/or Venice Medea from 1954/1955.


----------



## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Francasacchi said:


> We have snippets in wretched sound, but oh for the complete Tristan from La Scala with DeSabata conducting, Cobelli, Zanetti, Stignani.
> 
> La Scala Lohengrin, von Karajan, I think 1954 Schwarzkopf, and Modl's only Ortruds.
> 
> ...


While Ponselle is great, I wish to hear Rosa Raisa’s Norma even more. Ponselle lowered some parts of the score and cut some of the difficult passages.


----------



## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Rosa Raisa's Norma, definitely.
Callas in Don Carlo, 1958 Pirata, all Chicago performances, Met 1958 Traviata.
Ponselle's Trovatore, Aida and Gioconda.
Muzio's Mimi, preferably with Gigli as Rodolfo if they ever performed it together. 
Gina Cigna in Respighi's La Fiamma.
Caruso & Destinn in La Fanciulla del West.


----------



## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Great evenings or not, I would have liked to be present for or wish they had recorded:
_Elektra_, 25 January 1909, Dresden, with Annie Krull in the title role, Margarethe Siems as Chrysothemis, Ernestine Schumann-Heink as Klytämnestra, et.al.
_Der Rosenkavalier_, 26 January 1911, Dresden, with Margarethe Siems as the Marschallin, Eva von der Osten as Octavian, Minnie Nast as Sophie, et.al. Actually, for this lot, recorded excerpts, in studio, exist.
_Die Frau ohne Schatten_, 10 October 1919, Vienna, with Maria Jeritza as the Kaiserin, Lotte Lehmann as the Färberin, Lucie Weidt as the Amme, et.al.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> While Ponselle is great, I wish to hear Rosa Raisa’s Norma even more. Ponselle lowered some parts of the score and cut some of the difficult passages.


I knew she lowered Oh no tremare so the high Cs would be B flats. Milanov in 1954 used this transposition. What passages did Ponselle cut?


----------



## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Francasacchi said:


> I knew she lowered Oh no tremare so the high Cs would be B flats. Milanov in 1954 used this transposition. What passages did Ponselle cut?


I don’t know which they are exactly, but Ponselle herself mentions in ’Rosa Ponselle: A Centernary Biography’ by James. A. Drake when asked whether she sang everything in key, ”In Norma, just like Aida, I would put them down a half-tone, depending on how I was feeling. Serafin made some cuts [in the score] too.”
In the same book, it is mentioned that Mira o Norma too was transposed, based on a copy of Marion Telva, the Adalgisa’s score.


----------



## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

Some of us prefer (and respect more) singers who actually have the courage, resources and resolve to sing stuff as written, *in key*. I, for one, could care less how plush or sumptuous their voices are or were if they resort to transposing for convenience.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> I don’t know which they are exactly, but Ponselle herself mentions in ’Rosa Ponselle: A Centernary Biography’ by James. A. Drake when asked whether she sang everything in key, ”In Norma, just like Aida, I would put them down a half-tone, depending on how I was feeling. Serafin made some cuts [in the score] too.”
> In the same book, it is mentioned that Mira o Norma too was transposed, based on a copy of Marion Telva, the Adalgisa’s score.


I wonder if these were the usual cuts like those in Ah! Bello me ritorna and the trio. I also wonder if Ponselle like Milanov transposed Ah! Bello. And did Ponselle lower Mira o Norma ANOTHER step or half step per Telva's score? Telva was more contralto than mezzo It's usually down from G? If a heavy mezzo sings Adalgisa. I think Callas only sang it in key with Simionato in Chicago and maybe London. Cigna and Stignani sing it in key on their complete recording.


----------



## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

ALT said:


> Some of us prefer (and respect more) singers who actually have the courage, resources and resolve to sing stuff as written, *in key*. I, for one, could care less how plush or sumptuous their voices are or were if they resort to transposing for convenience.


But weren't the great operas of the 19th and early 20th centuries sung at a slightly lower pitch than a=442?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Yabetz said:


> But weren't the great operas of the 19th and early 20th centuries sung at a slightly lower pitch than a=442?


I have transposed my entire life.


----------



## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have transposed my entire life.


Yes and my understanding is that historically, singers were frequently complaining about the ever rising concert pitch.


----------



## sworley (6 mo ago)

Any opera, Vienna or the Met, conducted by Mahler or, for that matter, by Toscanini during his time at the Met. And on a less exalted plane, I would like to hear have one of Beecham's performances of Mignon in modern sound.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

marlow said:


> Beethoven playing Mozart piano concerto 20


The premiere of L'Orfeo (the one by the guy shown in your avatar).


----------



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

_La Traviata_ with Claudia Muzio
_Parsifal_ with Furtwangler
_Der Ring des Nibelungen_ with Toscanini
_Samson et Dalila_ and _Les Troyens_ with Georges Thill 
_Roberto Devereux_ with Callas
_Otello _with Caruso/Ruffo/Muzio

But most of all, a studio _La Fanciulla del West, _with the same cast as the 1954 live recording (Mitropoulos, Steber, Monaco, Guelfi). If it had happened, it would have been up there with de Sabata's Tosca as the most perfect recording of any opera.


----------



## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Probably the August 1876 performance of _Das Rheingold _at Bayreuth. Actually any of those early Bayreuth performances. But no wax cylinders please.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Nevermind


----------



## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

1910 premiere of _La fanciulla del west_. Actually, I would like to go to it... 1918 premiere of _Il trittico_. Muzio, De Luca, Crimi, Montesanto, Farrar, Easton, Bada... Unbelievable cast.


----------



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

vivalagentenuova said:


> *1910 premiere of *_*La fanciulla del west*_. Actually, I would like to go to it... 1918 premiere of _Il trittico_. *Muzio*, De Luca, Crimi, Montesanto, Farrar, Easton, Bada... Unbelievable cast.


Did Puccini ever comment on Destinn and Muzio?


----------



## Viardots (Oct 4, 2014)

*World premiere staged performance of Haydn's Orfeo ed Euridice [L’anima del filosofo], *Teatro della Pergola,* XIV Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, 9 June 1951*, with *Maria Callas* as Euridice, *Tyge Tygeson* as Orfeo and *Boris Christoff* as Creonte, conducted by *Erich Kleiber*
[Before this, a studio recording of the opera was published by the Haydn Society in 1950.]


*Maria Callas, Erich Kleiber, Boris Christoff*


*Maria Callas and Tyge Tygeson*

The opera was composed in 1791 during Haydn's first visit to London. It was not performed because of the political infighting between King George III and the Prince of Wales (later George IV) and remained unperformed during Haydn's lifetime.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Viardots said:


> *World premiere of Haydn's Orfeo ed Euridice [L’anima del filosofo], *Teatro della Pergola,* XIV Maggio Musicale Fiorentino, 9 June 1951*, with *Maria Callas* as Euridice, *Tyge Tygeson* as Orfeo and *Boris Christoff* as Creonte, conducted by *Erich Kleiber*
> 
> 
> *Maria Callas, Erich Kleiber, Boris Christoff*
> ...


She wasn't really that heavy here, but it is hard to believe this dowdy woman is the same glamorous diva we saw not too many years later. I think it was an inner more than an outer transformation. I had no idea she sang this!


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Adding to more performances I wish had been recorded: A complete Isolde with Marjorie Lawrence. A complete Amneris of Marjorie Lawrence from the late 40s. A complete Salome or Elektra with Marjorie Lawrence.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> I don’t know which they are exactly, but Ponselle herself mentions in ’Rosa Ponselle: A Centernary Biography’ by James. A. Drake when asked whether she sang everything in key, ”In Norma, just like Aida, I would put them down a half-tone, depending on how I was feeling. Serafin made some cuts [in the score] too.”
> In the same book, it is mentioned that Mira o Norma too was transposed, based on a copy of Marion Telva, the Adalgisa’s score.


I imagine these were the traditional cuts of the time and may well have been the cuts that Serafin made when he conducted the score with Callas. None of Callas' Normas are complete (although it's less cut than her Puritani or Sonnambula). Complete Normas weren't a thing before Caballe or Sutherland (IIRC). Sutherlands first studio recording was probably the first complete one.

N.


----------



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The 1918 Metropolitan Opera’s *La Forza Del Destino *in which Rosa Ponselle made her operatic debut, singing with Caruso.








O »


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

As long as 100+ year old performances are being listed, how about the Dec. 18 1802 performance at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna which had the premiere performances of the 4th piano concerto and the 5th and 6th symphonies!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Becca said:


> As long as 100+ year old performances are being listed, how about the Dec. 18 1802 performance at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna which had the premiere performances of the 4th piano concerto and the 5th and 6th symphonies!


I took it to mean performances that actually could have been recorded, but, since we're here, I'd go for the premieres of *Anna Bolena*, *Norma* and *La Sonnambula *with Giuditta Pasta.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I took it to mean performances that actually could have been recorded, but, since we're here, I'd go for the premieres of *Anna Bolena*, *Norma* and *La Sonnambula *with Giuditta Pasta.


Hey, why not?


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I took it to mean performances that actually could have been recorded, but, since we're here, I'd go for the premieres of *Anna Bolena*, *Norma* and *La Sonnambula *with Giuditta Pasta.


I thought it reasonable to extrapolate back because I have difficulty imagining just how a 1902 performance could have been recorded using the acoustic horn technology of the time.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Currently there is no artist I wish for more recordings to exist for other than a gorgeous, talented counter tenor David Hansen, who only has one album. Still, IF we ever get any great opera stars in the future, which is very doubtful, we have the technology now but for all practical purposes no industry to produce studio or live performances anymore. No market. Pirated Youtube videos of questionable quality is about all we will have most likely. It is like the industry has turned on it's head. Jonas Kaufmann and our Russian beauty with the questionable voice have some stuff, but you must be a really big artist to have much of anything on the market. There was a huge market for this stuff 100 years ago along with great singers but the technology was not very good.


----------



## Patrick Murtha (Aug 1, 2016)

I must concur that David Hansen is quite the looker. 🙂 He has done great work with Pinchgut Opera in Australia.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Currently there is no artist I wish for more recordings to exist for other than a gorgeous, talented counter tenor David Hansen, who only has one album.


Lucky for you there are plenty of photos of him online. Can he sing too?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Lucky for you there are plenty of photos of him online. Can he sing too?


I love his voice and beside Fagioli he is the only countertenor who has a good C6. He is in one contest. I love this piece:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love his voice and beside Fagioli he is the only countertenor who has a good C6. He is in one contest. I love this piece:


Pretty impressive, though a little weird to watch. Would you call him a sopranista? And should we use the term countertenor for male sopranos?


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Pretty impressive, though a little weird to watch. Would you call him a sopranista? And should we use the term countertenor for male sopranos?


No he is a baritone/ countertenor. There used to be a great version of this from a live opera and he jumped from table to table but it is gone except for an excerpt. He sounds like a mezzo with a great top. There is a great video of him in a rolling tub shirtless except for suds being pushed around while he sings. I don't know why I would like it.


----------



## Yabetz (Sep 6, 2021)

Becca said:


> As long as 100+ year old performances are being listed, how about the Dec. 18 1802 performance at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna which had the premiere performances of the 4th piano concerto and the 5th and 6th symphonies!


Those ain't operas. I'd want to hear the premiere of Figaro to see how close HIP gets it. Or the first performance of Bach's St Matthew Passion, for that matter.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> No he is a baritone/ countertenor. There used to be a great version of this from a live opera and he jumped from table to table but it is gone except for an excerpt. He sounds like a mezzo with a great top. There is a great video of him in a rolling tub shirtless except for suds being pushed around while he sings. I don't know why I would like it.


I might call this camp if I had any idea what it means.

Ok, it's camp.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Ok, it's camp.


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I might call this camp if I had any idea what it means.
> 
> Ok, it's camp.


I call it I am glad he isn't wearing much: f*** the plot LOL


----------



## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Trovatore from Chicago in 1955 with Callas, Bjorling, Bastianini and Stignani conducted by Rescigno would be my pick.

I wish that practically every night from the 1950s with Lyric Opera of Chicago had been recorded for posterity, not least the Don Carlo from 1957 season:
Bjorling, Cerquetti, Gobbi, Christoff, Rankin conducted by Solti.

The Aida with Rysanek, Bjorling, Simionato and Gobbi... the mind boggles.


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Revitalized Classics said:


> The Trovatore from Chicago in 1955 with Callas, Bjorling, Bastianini and Stignani conducted by Rescigno would be my pick.
> 
> I wish that practically every night from the 1950s with Lyric Opera of Chicago had been recorded for posterity, not least the Don Carlo from 1957 season:
> Bjorling, Cerquetti, Gobbi, Christoff, Rankin conducted by Solti.
> ...


My Dad was at that Aida. He was also at one of the Aidas Tebaldi sang at LOC. I wish the LOC Aida with Tebaldi and Varnay had been recorded. Varnay says in her autobio she did Amneris on a lark for Carol Fox. I wonder why Fox asked Varnay: was no mezzo available then? Varnay was definitely a dramatic soprano then. Apparently Tebaldi and Varnay really were fierce during their Act 2 duet as Tebaldi had tried to outstage Varnay.


----------



## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Tebaldi/Varnay combination would be unusual. Can't imagine having another Senta - Rysanek or Nilsson - on hand and giving her the second role.

Only Dimitrova comes to mind as someone who sang the part inbetween soprano roles. Resnik sang it after her soprano phase and Bumbry before she sang soprano roles.


----------



## OffPitchNeb (Jun 6, 2016)

Revitalized Classics said:


> The Tebaldi/Varnay combination would be unusual. Can't imagine having another Senta - Rysanek or Nilsson - on hand and giving her the second role.
> 
> Only Dimitrova comes to mind as someone who sang the part inbetween soprano roles. Resnik sang it after her soprano phase and Bumbry before she sang soprano roles.


Whose voice do you think was bigger?


----------



## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

OffPitchNeb said:


> Whose voice do you think was bigger?


I'd be interested if anyone compared them, if any contemporary reviews exist. 

Tebaldi sang Elsa and Elisabeth while Varnay was moving on to more Brunnhildes and Isoldes: does this suggest Varnay had the bigger voice? Steelier, I think, but I don't know if that necessarily translates into size. 

I'd have the same difficulty comparing Tebaldi with Callas (another sometime Brunnhilde/Isolde): even later in her career Tebaldi sounded pretty mighty in big roles like Gioconda or Minnie so no slouch.


----------



## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I'd love a good quality recording of Frida Leider at Bayreuth in the 1930's as Isolde, Kundry or Brunnhilde.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Looks like all choices are below 2000 but I bemoan a truly stunning performance of _Romeo et Juliette_ at the Loa Angeles Dorothy Chandler Pavilion in the early '20's with Rolando Villazon and a young Anna Netrebko who made the sparks fly.
Never to be seen again.


----------



## Otis B. Driftwood (4 mo ago)

Revitalized Classics said:


> The Trovatore from Chicago in 1955 with Callas, Bjorling, Bastianini and Stignani conducted by Rescigno would be my pick.


I'm almost sorry I found out about this, because it breaks my heart a little.


----------



## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Otis B. Driftwood said:


> I'm almost sorry I found out about this, because it breaks my heart a little.


I know.

The Met opera had been broadcasting on radio for nearly 25 years by 1955, smaller companies like New Orleans were in on the act too; RCA were already recording in the Chicago area and in stereo and on high quality tape by that point - think of the amazing recordings of the Chicago Symphony with Reiner - Callas was already big news, Bjorling had been a star since before the war...

... and as far as I know there was no broadcast and certainly no tapes.


----------



## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

- *1944, August 14, Athens*, Arena Herodes Atticus, *Fidelio*, with the 20-year old *Maria Callas *in the title role


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Concertantek364 said:


> - *1944, August 14, Athens*, Arena Herodes Atticus, *Fidelio*, with the 20-year old *Maria Callas *in the title role


That must have been quite a night, with liberation from the occupying forces just around the corner.


----------



## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That must have been quite a night, with liberation from the occupying forces just around the corner.


There was a tantalising possibility that the performance could have been recorded off air or on radio transcription tapes, but sadly nothing ever surfaced. 

Recalling a post by "Wallace":



> One of the most tantalizing prospects for a Callas live stereo recording would be her possible German broadcast of Fidelio (sung in Greek) from Athens in 1944. In his book _The Unknown Callas_, Nicholas Petsalis-Diomidis says: "It is quite probable that one of the performances of Fidelio was broadcast by the German radio station in Athens, in which case it may have been recorded. The very thought of such a discovery awaiting us is enough to bring a frisson of excitement not only to Callas devotees but all true opera lovers" (p. 428). It is known, of course, that late in the war the Germans were doing a lot of broadcasting from tape, much of it in real stereo. The live German stereo recording of Beethoven's Fifth Piano Concerto from 1944 (Walter Gieseking/Arthur Rother) is outstanding evidence of this. This features incredible sound that makes it seem like a much more modern recording. Unfortunately, after the war, many of the German stereo broadcast tapes were apparently lost or destroyed after being taken to the Soviet Union. Probably an unrealizable dream to discover a German radio stereo tape of Callas singing Fidelio!


----------



## Francasacchi (7 mo ago)

Concertantek364 said:


> There was a tantalising possibility that the performance could have been recorded off air or on radio transcription tapes, but sadly nothing ever surfaced.
> 
> Recalling a post by "Wallace":


I also heard that it may have been broadcast. And she got excellent reviews for her performance.


----------



## niknik (Oct 4, 2014)

Maria Callas Turandot 1949 Buenos Aires


----------



## Concertantek364 (Mar 13, 2021)

The 18-year-old *Maria Callas*'s role debut as *Tosca*, *1942, August 27*, *Athens*, Greek National Opera, Klafthmonos Square


With Títos Xiréllis as Scarpia in Act 2


----------

