# What you think will be on an updated "People Choice" and your thoughts on the ori.?



## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

*What you think will be on an updated "People Choice" and your thoughts on the ori.?*

I came across this interesting album concept, "The People's Choice Music" where from an online poll, a neuroscientist and two artists create two song, where they tried to reflect public taste in music in the 1990s.

*If you are familiar* with the album please _feel free to skip the long intro_. 
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The 1st song is titled "The Most Unwanted Song". 




(I'm not responsible for any ear damage resulting from this song, click at your own risk.)
The song is an attempt to bring all the most undesirable qualities into one song as indicated by the poll result. It was atrocious to listen to, but it was quite interesting. After hunting down the composer note for this album, I highlighted the relevant passage regarding this song.



> The most unwanted music is over 25 minutes long, veers wildly between loud and quiet sections, between fast and slow tempos, and features timbres of extremely high and low pitch, with each dichotomy presented in abrupt transition. The most unwanted orchestra was determined to be large, and features the accordion and bagpipe (which tie at 13% as the most unwanted instrument), banjo, flute, tuba, harp, organ, synthesizer (the only instrument that appears in both the most wanted and most unwanted ensembles). An operatic soprano raps and sings atonal music, advertising jingles, political slogans, and "elevator" music, and a children's choir sings jingles and holiday songs. The most unwanted subjects for lyrics are cowboys and holidays, and the most unwanted listening circumstances are involuntary exposure to commercials and elevator music.


The 2nd song is "The Most Wanted Song"




From listening to it, I found it bland and easily forgettable, though I found the lyrics quite funny.

Here is the passage from the note on this song:


> The most favored ensemble, determined from a rating by participants of their favorite instruments in combination, comprises a moderately sized group (three to ten instruments) consisting of guitar, piano, saxophone, bass, drums, violin, cello, synthesizer, with low male and female vocals singing in rock/r&b style. The favorite lyrics narrate a love story, and the favorite listening circumstance is at home. The only feature in lyric subjects that occurs in both most wanted and unwanted categories is "intellectual stimulation." Most participants desire music of moderate duration (approximately 5 minutes), moderate pitch range, moderate tempo, and moderate to loud volume, and display a profound dislike of the alternatives.


I further hunt down a article that the neuroscientist published in a music journal. The article talk about the attribute of "genuineness" in music, where he tried to develop a test similar to the Turning Test, where a human subject determine which is the genuine song from a set of song. From this he created this album as a test case.

Here is what he has to say from the results:


> Those who created the People's Choice Music, the masses, had no intent or understanding of what they were creating; they simply answered a series of poll questions. The attributes of these two works were decided without individual intent and are in no sense Art. No creative decision-making was involved. Yet it so cleverly imitates music that the listener could be fooled.





> The end result is a product of the People's Will, the will of the masses(volkmusik) rather than the individual heroic will of the Artist


From reading the article, I came away from the impression that the creator of this album worried about the influence of "zombies", that is composers or artists who doesn't have the intent or capacity to create music but still do so, on the music industry. He worried that naughtimusik, nongenuine music, with proper development, can overtake the canon of music. I'm a layman, so my ability to explore this on my own is relatively limited, so any thoughts on his thesis would be welcome.

I find his position to be a bit elitist-for a lack of a better word- and I not sure that his position is commonplace in the music profession or academia. Furthermore, I'm not sure if his album can be applied to general preference of music listeners as the confidence level (.72) seems too low and the standard deviation seems (.12) a bit high, and preference of music is changing all the time so it's not set in stone.

A music critic criticized his premise as containing a logical fallacy " if you take undesirable elements x, y, and z and combine them, you will certainly get an unwanted piece. It's actually not a full-proof recipe for disaster. In fact, I like certain elements in the piece and it has a solid sense of form, using repetition in a rather sophisticated way. Because the authors wanted to pack in so many parameters, the piece has wildly contrasting ideas, which adds a nice variety. All in all, it exhibits elements that are consistent with music that I (and most people) appreciate: repetition, variety, tonality, humor."

12tone, a Youtube music channel made a video, about this work. 




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Do you agree on the album creator's idea regarding "genuineness"? What is your reaction to the two songs? Which one did you prefer? Do you find their album to be "stupid" or "intriguing?

What I find most interesting about the album was not his idea of genuineness which I didn't got from listening to his music, but rather common taste in music, where from polling a sample of individuals, you can modify different attribution of the song to make it more appealing or alienating to the wider population. His songs is quite crude in this example, but I do wonder what would a more sophisticated operation with more "talented/popular/influential" people results in.

*Now here's the crux of my thread:*
In the year 2021, if a similar study/album take place, what musical elements, genres, etc. you expect to find in a updated version of the most unwanted/wanted song based on the overall, general preference of the population of music listeners across all genres, cultures, and countries? Or how would a general group preference (example: Talkclassical forum members) differs from the general population. What would the album sound like for each different genre, and how would it differ from the past (example: Rock music preference now vs. what it was in the 1970s)?

I think this would be an interesting question to see how people view the present state of music and apporach their preference in music. It could illustrate to some common grounds that music share to all of us.

I'm interested in how this would relate to classical music, but much of my question is built on non classical music leading me to post it here. However, if people like to discuss about classical music, I'm okay with it that, and if it cannot be discussed in the non-classical section, then I will create another thread on this matter more specific to classical music.

I understand, that _subjectivism _and _objectivism _may come up, but can I ask that poster *please refrain from bringing it up* and making it a several thread pages discussion, as there are other threads that are more suitable to that.* I'm ok with it being mention in passing, not ok with it being a prolong discussion.*

Sorry for the unnecessary long introduction to the work, I think I got carry away on that. Thank you for reading my thread, and I'm looking forward to reading your discussion on this matter.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I have still to listen to the second one but the most unwanted song is such a wild mess that ends being genuinely funny.


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

norman bates said:


> I have still to listen to the second one but the most unwanted song is such a wild mess that ends being genuinely funny.


For "The Most Unwanted Song", I was split between finding the song unbearable and finding it to be "mesmerizing". I think unlike the other song, hopefully I don't spoil the song if you haven't already listen to it, this song demand your attention whereas the other one can be passable as "waiting room" music. For that reason, I preferred the "The Most Unwanted Song" to "The Most Wanted Song" as it's funnier, as you pointed out, and more interesting even though it was hideous. It's a bit bewildering that such a song could have different reactions from me personally.

What are your thoughts on the album and the premise behind it? How accurately do you think these songs reflect "public taste" in music at the time it was created? What you think the present version of those two songs will be? Will be the same or very different from the 1990s?

^I'm interested in your and anyone else thoughts regarding these questions.

*Edit*: Another question that poke at the composer intention for creating the album, when you are listening to it, did you regard it as music/art?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Conrad2 said:


> For "The Most Unwanted Song", I was split between finding the song unbearable and finding it to be "mesmerizing". I think unlike the other song, hopefully I don't spoil the song if you haven't already listen to it, this song demand your attention whereas the other one can be passable as "waiting room" music. For that reason, I preferred the "The Most Unwanted Song" to "The Most Wanted Song" as it's funnier, as you pointed out, and more interesting even though it was hideous. It's a bit bewildering that such a song could have different reactions from me personally.
> 
> What are your thoughts on the album and the premise behind it? How accurately do you think these songs reflect "public taste" in music at the time it was created? What you think the present version of those two songs will be? Will be the same or very different from the 1990s?


If I have understood how those two pieces were made (yes, I've heard the second one and wasn't anything special) I definitely don't think that this funny experiment has a lot of value. Because music is a matter of musical context, and the same thing that doesn't work in a context could work incredibly well in another. So the idea that "most wanted music" can be achieved just putting together very few aspects that are liked by a lot of people doesn't work like that. Two different tonal melodies can be great an memorable or bad or not memorable. Same for harmony, rhyhtm, sound, the voice. There are huge amount of variables that this experiment doesn't seem to consider.


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## Conrad2 (Jan 24, 2021)

norman bates said:


> If I have understood how those two pieces were made (yes, I've heard the second one and wasn't anything special) I definitely don't think that this funny experiment has a lot of value. Because music is a matter of musical context, and the same thing that doesn't work in a context could work incredibly well in another. So the idea that "most wanted music" can be achieved just putting together very few aspects that are liked by a lot of people doesn't work like that. Two different tonal melodies can be great an memorable or bad or not memorable. Same for harmony, rhyhtm, sound, the voice. There are huge amount of variables that this experiment doesn't seem to consider.


Yep, I agree with if you just place a lot of things that people like into a piece it doesn't always translate into a good piece, and the experiment was quite crude.

I think what interesting about the work is that the composer try to find out common taste in music through the poll. I saw that some posters states that poll can be used as a way to find what we think about music, and found this to be a "real life" example of such an endeavor. Perhaps, the work didn't accomplished what it has aimed for and don't have validity, but it was fun nevertheless.

My main reason of creating this thread is from a similar poll that this composer did, would the attributes of elements that the respondents find to be attractive or alienating in music remain stable or change from past years or era, and with proper sampling and testing, can the result show the overall, general taste of people in music in a snapshot of time? Furthermore, how does one select the elements that are put forth to the subject? I think these questions might reveal "common taste" we may have in music. I come across the argument that music taste is changing resulting in a decline/growth in music as an art, and I thought by establishing what taste in what element has changed that it can create a definite parameter that we can work with in regards to that argument (that argument is not the subject of this thread, but the elements and the taste are).

I thought my thoughts are interesting, maybe it's not.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Conrad2 said:


> Yep, I agree with if you just place a lot of things that people like into a piece it doesn't always translate into a good piece, and the experiment was quite crude.
> 
> I think what interesting about the work is that the composer try to find out common taste in music through the poll. I saw that some posters states that poll can be used as a way to find what we think about music, and found this to be a "real life" example of such an endeavor. Perhaps, the work didn't accomplished what it has aimed for and don't have validity, but it was fun nevertheless.
> 
> ...


I think they would definitely change with time. After all, a hundred years ago a lot more people were into classical music than today, while today hip hop and trap are very popular. 
About the "how does one select the elements that are put forth to the subject?" I don't know, I mean I think that there are examples of the very same musician playing the same song in different versions, both good and I think one is absolutely perfect the other while very well made does not have the same magic. The beauty of music sometimes resides in microscopic details. Like literally, the other day I was looking at some video about microrhythms and it shows how the tiniest nuances can make a lot of difference. And that was about just one aspect, and there are so many things to consider that I would not even know where to start.
I remember though that a few years ago someone made an experiment with AI trying to produce something like the most wanted music using the evaluations of people. I think that experiment is still going on, but I don't remember how it was called. I should look for it.


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