# Granate's Bruckner Challenge - Symphony No.4



## Granate

*No.4 Results:*
Trash
42nd: Schuricht RSOS
41st: Sawallisch PhlO

Decent
40th: Celibidache MetroGnome
39th: Sinopoli SKD
38th: Thielemann MPO
37th: Tennstedt WC
36th: Celibidache DG
35th: Haitink WPO
34th: Maazel SOdBR
33rd: Knappertsbusch BPO
32nd: Richter DSOB
31st: Kubelík SOdBR
30th: Matačić WSO
29th: Jochum SKD
28th: Haitink RCO
27th: Blomstedt LGO
26th: Barenboim CSO
25th: Celibidache Sony
24th: Karajan WC
23rd: Walter CoSO

Good
22nd: Böhm WPO
21st: Gielen SWR SO BBuF
20th: Tintner RNSO
19th: Wand KRSO
18th: Tennstedt Testament
17th: Kempe MPO
16th: Furtwängler WPO
15th: Matačić PO
14th: Harnoncourt RCO
13th: Asahina OPO
12th: Klemperer PO
11th: Chailly DSOB (1p)

*TOP10*

_10th (2p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1886 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Stanisław Skrowaczewski, RSOS, Oehms (2003)*

_Storming version that shows an amazing control of the tempo and at the same time ability to raise up the volume even if the brass is too sharp in the epic finale._
*C+*

_9th (3p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1886 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Georg Solti, CSO, Decca (1981)*

_Undeniably a good recording, no wonder it could be anyone's favourite. The best feature is the intensity of the instruments and the ability to create an epic soundscape._
*C+*

_8th (4p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1886 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Eugen Jochum, BPO, DG (1967/2016 Reissue Edition)*

_One of the most celebrated recordings of the fourth is one that grows in the second falf with incredible intensity and control of the tempo. Successful effort and epic finale._
*B-*

_7th (5p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Günter Wand, BPO, Sony (1998/2002 Remastered Edition)*

_Overwhelming and also delicate performance that joins the ideas of Wand with the sound of Abbado's Berliner Philharmoniker. The Andante is the highlight, finally. A great success if it wasn't for that handicaped brass weight._
*B-*

_6th (6p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1874 First Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Simone Young, HPO, Oehms (2007)*

_The recording is as monumental and perfect as the Young set is showing. The small issue is to confront with a the first score version of the symphony, less regular, less repetitive but a little bewildering. The Bewegt and Andante are phenomenal anyways._
*B-*


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## Granate

_TOP5 (7p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Herbert von Karajan, BPO, DG (1975)*

_Impressing Karajan recording for his set that communicates all the grand concepts of the symphony, with more success in the Scherzo and less in the Finale (where the brass is to blame for the harsh sound)._
*B-*

_TOP4 (8p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1886 Version, Ed. Nowak)
*Cond. Mario Venzago, BsSO, CPO (2010)*

_From zero to hero, Venzago and the Basel Symphony create an even more epic soundscape for the second half, highlighting the incredible beginning of the finale and the protagonism the strings hold in this recording._
*B-*

_TOP3_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. István Kertész, LSO, BBC Legends (1964/2009 Reissue Edition)*

O_O _That was an unexpected, awesome concert with the London Symphony by Kertész. The sound makes the performance evolve and progress to an exceptional realisation._
*B-*

_TOP2 (9p)_









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1888 Version, Ed. Loewe)
*Cond. Hans Knappertsbusch, WPO, Testament (1955/2004 Remastered Edition)*

_However the remastering may have affected this recording, Knappertsbusch creates a neat atmorphere with the Wiener. The first "experience" in studio that somehow made it for Decca but was later uncatalogued in favour of better stereo versions._
*B*

_*TOP1*_ *(10p)*









*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas)
*Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, MPO, WC (1988/2011 Issue Edition)*

_A near-perfect recording that becomes excellent in the epic Bewegt and Finale thanks to the slowness and volume. One wishes the Andante and Scherzo reached the same level but they refuse to help._
*B-*

It is very hard for me to choose one of these eight top recordings. Except Knappertsbusch and Celibidache, who share the same highlights and advantages, each recording has something different to show as unique. Kertész and Young conduct like during a tornado, Jochum serves overall the best finale of all of these closely followed by Venzago, that grows with time and creates an outstanding recording. Karajan has a less tender version than Wand with the same Berliner with a great scherzo. If Celibidache for Warner Classics is a close winner instead of the Glorious mono take of the symphony by 'Kna' is because of the stereo quality and the depth Celibidache achieves in one of his fourth tries.


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## Azol

Just re-listened to the Finale as performed by Celibidache/Munich PO (EMI) and it's indeed one of those "you have to hear it to believe it" recordings. At 27+ minutes Finale does not seem slow!

You seem to skip the videos available - Wand performance in Lubeck Dom with NDR SO is also very satisfying, with spatial reverberations adding to the unique experience.


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## Vaneyes




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## DavidA

Karajan's EMI recording is preferable to the DG. Stupendous!

As is Karl Bohm's famous Decca recording with the VPO


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## Heck148

Walter/ColSO
Barenboim/CSO for me...

the dynamic range of the Barenboim is really stunning - same with the color and variety of articulation, esp in the brass, most remarkable


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## Granate

**



Heck148 said:


> Bruckner 3 is his first great symphony, IMO.. my 2 favorites are :
> 
> Solti/CSO
> Barenboim/CSO
> 
> great flow and contrast...the brass sonority is non pareil...unmatched...I give Solti a slight edge, he generates a bit more excitement esp in the finale. the final section is most splendid - one of those great "Bruckner moments" that he would develop further in his later works.





Heck148 said:


> Walter/ColSO
> Barenboim/CSO for me...
> 
> the dynamic range of the Barenboim is really stunning - same with the color and variety of articulation, esp in the brass, most remarkable


We will have to agree with the fact that we disagree.  I suppose I am looking at different features for my own satisfaction...


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## Heck148

Granate said:


> We will have to agree with the fact that we disagree.  I suppose I am looking at different features for my own satisfaction...


sure thing...chacun a son gout


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## Granate

Azol said:


> You seem to skip the videos available - Wand performance in Lubeck Dom with NDR SO is also very satisfying, with spatial reverberations adding to the unique experience.


I surely won't skip Bruckner's No.8 by Karajan live in St. Florian, but did not know of the existence of that No.4 in Lübeck. I don't know if I should try Wand's No.9 in Lübeck. It's tempting.
For that No.4, I will try to rate it on my quick round-up after all the 'important' recordings. It will go together with the Wand Bruckner set 3-9 with the NDR SO for RCA, but it will happen in a long time, I am afraid.
Please tell me if I should check other live recordings on video of any Bruckner symphony.
And thank you


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## Azol

Here is the Wand B4 [email protected] Dom: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gunter-Wand-Bruckner-Symphony-Region/dp/B000F6YWYE/

There are lots of video performances (and I keep many in my collection, notably Wand, Abbado, Giulini and Celibidache), but actually I still prefer audio recordings of Bruckner symphonies for some reason. I really can recommend the above mentioned B4/Wand/NDR SO and you might find worth your time watching the B7/Abbado/Lucerne DVD: https://www.amazon.com/Bruckner-Beethoven-Symphony-Concerto-Brendel/dp/B000FGGK9E.


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## realdealblues

I've heard probably 90% of those compared but Jochum, Klemperer, Bohm, Wand, & Karajan are still the only ones I need.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Not necessarily in order, Kertesz, Klemperer and Knappertsbusch have been my favorites for some time. Very fine sound given Kertesz on the original London/Decca vinyl lp. Klemperer's EMI vinyl also satisfying. I have Kna only on cd with the Berlin Philharmonic in mono from 1944.


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## Becca

I don't quite understand how you can compare the recordings of the 1874 version (Young, etc.) with the 1880+ versions, they are just too different.


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## Granate

Becca said:


> I don't quite understand how you can compare the recordings of the 1874 version (Young, etc.) with the 1880+ versions, they are just too different.


Yes they are, and that is why I keep both (best of original and best of Haas/Nowak). I do prefer a lot more Nowak here because of the successful arrangements.


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## Azol

By the way, have you listened to *Inbal/RSO Frankfurt* recording of the 1874 version?
https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-No-4-Radiosinfonieorchester-Frankfurt-Inbal/dp/B00021T5SU


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## Granate

Azol said:


> By the way, have you listened to *Inbal/RSO Frankfurt* recording of the 1874 version?


I will in the quick round-up of ignored sets (Inbal, Masur, Barenboim BPO & SKB, Asahina JVC, Janowski...)


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## merlinus

I highly recommend Celibidache/MPO recorded at the Vienna Musikverein on SACD. Outstanding performance, and sonics to die for!!! A different concert than the one on EMI.


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> I highly recommend Celibidache/MPO recorded at the Vienna Musikverein on SACD. Outstanding performance, and sonics to die for!!! A different concert than the one on EMI.





Granate said:


> Decent
> ...
> 27th: Blomstedt LGO
> 26th: Barenboim CSO
> *25th: Celibidache Sony*
> 24th: Karajan WC
> 23rd: Walter CoSO
> ...











*Bruckner*
Symphony No.4 in E flat major (1881 Version, Ed. Haas) (Live recording in Vienna)
*Cond. Sergiu Celibidache, MPO, Sony (1989/2008 Issue Edition)*

_Not a lifechanging performance, certainly slow and with good attention to the strings._
*C*

All five concerts were rated here already. Fortunately, this one is the second best, but too decent and beatable.

However, from that SACD set, the No.8 is the one to go for.


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## merlinus

I do not understand the criteria for these rankings. Is it your own considered opinion after auditioning 30+ versions of each? Or???

Nevertheless the ranking of this one is very, very far amiss, for me. It is far superior to his version on EMI in every regard, especially the SQ.


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> I do not understand the criteria for these rankings. Is it your own considered opinion after auditioning 30+ versions of each? Or???


*'s* may be enough for an answer... Or either I would answer a straight yes to your question, and you wouldn't be the first to disagree with me at all. 

I am glad that you find the SACD more compelling. I am not an audiophile and I had listened to that Celibidache No.4 in TR24 quality. I don't remember when did I start to use my Superlux headphones instead of the Budget Sennheisers, probably from Symphony No.5 in December. Even now, every time I listen to SACD with foobar I have to turn up the volume a lot and I may not even enjoy as much detail as I expected (happened with Celibidache's SACD No.4 and No.6, where I preferred the CD versions). I listened to my now praised Böhm No.8 in SACD too, but I compare it to the CD quality from 2004 remastering and the latter is brighter for my ears.

I hope you understand my issues with SACD (I stick with FLAC24bit) and that I am not really fond of those files. I hope you share more thoughts about Bruckner and details.


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## Brahmsian Colors

For me, the best and only remaining Bruckner Fourths I own after paring down my collection during the last five years are Kertesz,Klemperer,Knappertsbusch and Jochum/Berlin. I recently acquired Celibidache's complete EMI set of ten individual discs for $10 complete in a thrift ship. I had never heard any of his Bruckner performances before. The Fourth was the first one I listened to, and it took me just that one listen to realize how fine his interpretation was. His musical details emerged from the framework of an organic, continuous flowing entity. There was a sense of unity among passages as opposed to any hint of a patchwork of episodic events. Next will probably be my favorite Bruckner work, the Seventh.


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## Bruckner Anton

For me, Wand BPO is very impressive, and the brass is very clear and certainly not "handicapped". I found it even more convincing than those recordings with big dominating brass sound while depicting the rustic scenes of the opening movement that the composer wrote. 
Celi EMI is a great version, but for me a bit slow (certainly tolerable comparing with his #7-9 EMI). Sometimes it deliberately produces a ton of details out of the score which seem to be less important than the missing momentum of the music. The audience of the recording is generally quite, but they did made some annoying coughs at several crucial moments in movement 2.
BTW, for me I will put Boehm VPO Decca in the top ten without a doubt.


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## Granate

Haydn67 said:


> ... I recently acquired *Celibidache*'s complete EMI set of ten individual discs for $10 complete in a thrift ship. ... Next will probably be my favorite Bruckner work, the *Seventh*.


If I was honest, I would say...

PLEASE, REFRAIN, REFRAIN  His adagios are annoyingly eternal. Try Jochum Dresden or Böhm Wiener for a similar effect in a reasonable time lenght.


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## merlinus

Granate said:


> If I was honest, I would say...
> 
> PLEASE, REFRAIN, REFRAIN  His adagios are annoyingly eternal. Try Jochum Dresden or Böhm Wiener for a similar effect in a reasonable time lenght.


Why throw cold water onto someone's wanting to listen to Celi, even before he/she has done so!!! Your prejudices are clearly getting in the way!

Celi's adagios are not in the least annoying to me. In fact, just the opposite. I am often transfixed by the details, beauty, and depth of feelings.

Although I take issue with most of your rankings, I would never tell you not to listen to any particular interpretations.


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## Brahmsian Colors

merlinus said:


> Why throw cold water onto someone's wanting to listen to Celi, even before he/she has done so!!! Your prejudices are clearly getting in the way!
> 
> Celi's adagios are not in the least annoying to me. In fact, just the opposite. I am often transfixed by the details, beauty, and depth of feelings.
> 
> Although I take issue with most of your rankings, I would never tell you not to listen to any particular interpretations.


In his quote above merlinus is responding to Granate's comments to me regarding Celibidache's Bruckner adagios. 
-----------------------------------------------------------

I do appreciate very much your concern Merlinus, but honestly, Granate's comments do not bother or discourage me at all. Like all of us, his likes and dislikes are highly personal. Such is true of even the most seasoned listeners. My own ears will certainly indicate to me whether or not and/or which of Celibidache's Bruckner adagios will give me satisfaction. Thanks again, and thanks also to Granate for his praiseworthy effort in taking the time to evaluate Bruckner's Symphonies and provide us with his personal observations and lists of ratings. :tiphat:


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> Why throw cold water onto someone's wanting to listen to Celi, even before he/she has done so!!! Your prejudices are clearly getting in the way!
> 
> Celi's adagios are not in the least annoying to me. In fact, just the opposite. I am often transfixed by the details, beauty, and depth of feelings.
> 
> Although I take issue with most of your rankings, I would never tell you not to listen to any particular interpretations.


I still remember that time I debuted myself with Bruckner and Celibidache and chose the No.3 with EMI/WC. I didn't touch Bruckner or Celbidache in 9 months. That No.3 is an interest killer for me, and so are all his futile/average tries with No.7. The Sony recording is the closest in the ranking to the top 15.

If my exclamation, intended to avoid a draw-back on listening to Celibidache, created the wrong effect, I am sorry.

I agree with your statements for his way of conducting. I just don't think Celi fits in every Bruckner Symphony. As well as for myself Karajan is an amazing Sibelius conductor, a fairy dies at every Mahler he tries (except the passable Live No.9).


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## Brahmsian Colors

Granate said:


> I just don't think Celi fits in every Bruckner Symphony.


Since I've just begun to audition Celi's Bruckner performances on EMI, I'm not in any position yet to assume the same. It's fairly probable however I will eventually reach your conclusion. There is only one instance in which I feel a particular conductor "fits in every" symphony written by a composer, and that is Klemperer with the Four Brahms Symphonies....Imagine someone singling out one conductor who "fitted" every symphony of Mozart or Haydn. ....Maybe comments on conductor/composer fits would "fit" in a new thread.


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## merlinus

There are but few conductors who, for me, have exhibited a strong affinity with a particular composer. Bernstein and Mahler is one, and for Bruckner, Celibidache and Karajan. That doesn't mean that every performance is "the best," but they all come close.

On another note, I cannot imagine listening to an entire Bruckner symphony with headphones!!! The music needs LOTS of space, and even the 12-foot ceiling in my music room does not do him justice!


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## Brahmsian Colors

Maybe Granate needs to clarify exactly what he means when he asserts Celi doesn't fit in every Bruckner Symphony. Is a fit contingent upon satisfying the listener's aesthetic satisfaction or "floating his boat" or strictly following the composer's markings? In the colloquial sense, what constitutes a flop, misstep or failing?


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> There are but few conductors who, for me, have exhibited a strong affinity with a particular composer. Bernstein and Mahler is one, and for Bruckner, Celibidache and Karajan. That doesn't mean that every performance is "the best," but *they all come close*.





Haydn67 said:


> Maybe Granate needs to clarify exactly what he means when he asserts Celi doesn't fit in every Bruckner Symphony. Is a fit contingent upon satisfying the listener's aesthetic satisfaction or "floating his boat" or strictly following the composer's markings? In the colloquial sense, what constitutes a *flop, misstep* or failing?


Reading again my thoughts on the Bruckner No.7 interpretations by Celibidache, none of them are actually a failure, in fact, pretty good and in the first third of the ranking. However, compared to the top-class readings he made of the rest of the symphonies, whether it's DG, EMI or Sony, his No.7 is a disappointment. His DG recording has the tempi right but a sound quality that doesn't do him justice. With EMI/WC I repeat that his Adagio length ends up with my patience, forget transfixion. And his Sony SACD recording is the most balanced of the three, both in sound and performance, yet the listening is not fulfilling enough compared to other sixteen recordings, when usually Celibidache has almost always been in the top 5 of my rankings.

So what could I consider a failure, or why do I sometimes put some recordings in the "trash" section?: it depends on the style (like Horenstein No.5) which I don't agree with, or, between failure and decent, a recording that I don't feel it encourages me to pay attention to it, or I see lack of passion, details. Celibidache had some "decent" live recordings but there was always an outstanding one to cover it up. It was about to happen in No.4 but the WC cd slayed everything else. I think if one set is falling more on this "decent" and "failure" terms, it's Wand with the Kölner (never Berliner) and Solti with Chicago.



merlinus said:


> On another note, I cannot imagine listening to an entire Bruckner symphony with headphones!!! The music needs LOTS of space, and even the 12-foot ceiling in my music room does not do him justice!


My neighbour is one of those who likes to play Classical Music with speakers on. I appreciate it, and Bruckner does sound very good in his speaker. I prefer listening with speakers to Baroque music than Romantic Orchestral. I am listening to all this symphonies with Superlux headphones to appreciate the details and draw differences. If not there would be no point in doing comparisons.


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## Brahmsian Colors

Granate said:


> Celibidache....His DG recording has the tempi right but a sound quality that doesn't do him justice.... And his Sony SACD recording is the most balanced of the three, both in sound and performance, yet the listening is not fulfilling enough compared to other sixteen recordings.
> 
> So what could I consider a failure, or why do I sometimes put some recordings in the "trash" section?: it depends on the style (like Horenstein No.5) which I don't agree with, or, between failure and decent, a recording that I don't feel it encourages me to pay attention to it, or I see lack of passion, details.


Your first paragraph above might indicate a possible issue with the sound or recording engineers and not with Celi's interpretation per se. I like what you have to say in the second paragraph because I also concern myself with the conductor's ability to elicit and clarify certain details. I consider most important the manner in which he displays the kinds of emotions in both quality and quantity that convince me he is effectively representing what the composer wants to say.


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## Merl

Wand and Young for me but the 4th is well-served on record. Lots of very good ones (Jochum, Skrowaczewski, etc).


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## merlinus

Listened to Jochum/DG this afternoon. As with no. 3, he moves far too quickly in most places, as well as pushing and pulling the tempo in trying to be profound. That approach does not even begin to communicate the depths of feeling and heights of grandeur.

The adagio, however, is lovely.

Fortunately in his later recordings of 5, 7, 8, and 9 with RCO, MPO, and/or Bamberger he takes a slower pace, and brings out the wonder of Bruckner's music. The 5th, recorded shortly before his death, is amongst the very best.

As for no. 4, Celibidache is still by far the one, for me. Wand/BPO is also excellent, although the sound is sometimes overly congested.


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## DarkAngel

If anyone is a fan of Furtwangler's Bruckner watch for updates to Pristine Classical website, they are re-building after complete crash and not all titles are listed currently......but Andrew Rose has some amazing Bruckner remasters that are a real step above in sound quality compared to Music & Arts or Testament label versions for instance, I was just listening to his 4th tonight 51 VPO thinking this has to be one of my very favorite versions!

Granate this is pure Bruckner fan worship that borders on complete insanity, keep it up brother 

Shown in pix Furtwangler Pristine XR remasters:

4th - 51 VPO
7th - 49 BPO
8th - 44 VPO
9th - 44 BPO


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## Granate

*After the Round-Up - No.4*

*No.4 Results:*
Trash
70th: Schuricht RSOS
69th: Sawallisch PhlO
*68th:* Janowski OSR

Decent
67th: Celibidache MetroGnome
*66th:* Asahina OPO JVC
65th: Sinopoli SKD
*64th:* Jochum RCO Live
*63rd:* Keilberth NHK
62nd: Thielemann MPO
*61st:* Lim KSO
60th: Tennstedt WC
*59th:* López-Cobos CcSO
58th: Celibidache DG
*57th:* Jansons RCO
56th: Haitink WPO
*55th:* Donnányi ClO
54th: Maazel SOdBR
*53rd:* Masur LGO
*52nd:* Blomstedt SKD
*51st:* Wand MPO
50th: Knappertsbusch BPO
*49th:* Abbado WPO
*48th:* Mehta LAPO
*47th:* Kegel LRSO
46th: Richter DSOB
*45th:* Rögner RSOB Live
*44th:* Rozhdestvensky Nowak
43rd: Kubelík SOdBR
*42nd:* Rattle BPO
41st: Matačić WSO
40th: Jochum SKD
39th: Haitink RCO
*38th:* Sieghart BOL
*37th:* Rozhdestvensky Original
36th: Blomstedt LGO
*35th:* Barenboim BPO
34th: Barenboim CSO
*33rd:* Abbado LFO
32nd: Celibidache Sony
31st: Karajan WC
*30th:* Barenboim SKB
29th: Walter CoSO

Good
28th: Böhm WPO
27th: Gielen SWR SO BBuF
26th: Tintner RNSO
25th: Wand KRSO
24th: Tennstedt Testament
23rd: Kempe MPO
22nd: Furtwängler WPO
*21st:* Rozhdestvensky Mahler
20th: Matačić PO
19th: Harnoncourt RCO
18th: Asahina OPO JJ
*17th:* Paternostro WPR
16th: Klemperer PO
*15th:* Muti BPO
14th: Chailly DSOB
13th: Skrowaczewski RSOS (1p)
*12th:* Tennstedt LPO TDK
*11th:* Inbal RSOF *(2p)*
10th: Solti CSO (3p)
*9th:* Wand SOdNDR

Very good
8th: Jochum BPO (4p)
7th: Wand BPO (5p)
6th: Young HPO (6p)
5th: Karajan DG (7p)
4th: Venzago BsSO (8p)
3rd: Kertész LSO
2nd: Knappertsbusch WPO (9p)
1st: Celibidache WC (10p)

Highlights of the round-up:










Bruckner
_*Symphony No.4 in E flat major*_ Live recording
1881 Version, Ed. Haas
Württembergische Philharmonie Reutlingen
*Roberto Paternostro
Membran (1999/2009 Issue Edition)*

_Consistent acoustics which could serve as your average Bruckner performance but rather exciting than dull._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.4 in E flat major*_
1886 Version, Ed. Nowak
Berliner Philharmoniker
*Riccardo Muti
Warner Classics (1985)*

_It could be a well done Bruckner interpretation, showing respect for the movements and weights of the orchestra, but Muti manages to give the special breath in the Finale and Bewegt._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.4 in E flat major*_ Live recording
1881 Version, Ed. Haas
London Philharmonic Orchestra
*Klaus Tennstedt
TDK (1984)*

_Enormous and intense strings that add up the celebrated Mahlerian style to the Romantic._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.4 in E flat major*_
1874 Original Version, Ed. Nowak
Rundfunk-Symphonie-Orchester Frankfurt
*Eliahu Inbal
Warner Classics (1982/2010 Reissue Edition)*

_Intense! Original versions are more acclaimed when listened before the revised editions. Inbal, like Young, performs the version with a very consistent style and strength._
*C+*









Bruckner
_*Symphony No.4 in E flat major*_ Live recording 
1881 Version, Ed. Haas
Norddeutschen Rundfunk Sinfonieorchester
*Günter Wand
Sony Classics (1990/1999 Issue Edition)*

_First class, Haas version with Wand and NDR on top of the game, no sound or performing flaw to take from this except for a forgivable brass taste._
*C+*

You can guess from the numerous bolden numbers in the "Decent" section, that this round-up was not a great fun.


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## merlinus

Having just received and listened to #4 with Thielemann and SKD, this has to be very near, or at, the top. Sonically magnificent, with an interpretation to match. No muddiness at all, which is all too often the case with Bruckner recordings.


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## Granate

merlinus said:


> Having just received and listened to #4 with Thielemann and SKD, this has to be very near, or at, the top. Sonically magnificent, with an interpretation to match. No muddiness at all, which is all too often the case with Bruckner recordings.


Hi Merlinus. It's been a very long time since I last talked about Bruckner. I listened to the Profil Thielemann Bruckner No.4 a couple of times. It's hard to rate it because the sound is quite good. However, the performance and style that Thielemann has achieved with the Dresden ensemble has little mark in this particular recording, except Movement 4. It's a remainder that Thielemann can still have a dull night conducting Bruckner, no matter how revealing are the existing No.7 and No.8 in Profil. I'm hungry for his complete set in C-major (different performances altogether).


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## merlinus

Granate said:


> Hi Merlinus. It's been a very long time since I last talked about Bruckner. I listened to the Profil Thielemann Bruckner No.4 a couple of times. It's hard to rate it because the sound is quite good. However, the performance and style that Thielemann has achieved with the Dresden ensemble has little mark in this particular recording, except Movement 4. It's a remainder that Thielemann can still have a dull night conducting Bruckner, no matter how revealing are the existing No.7 and No.8 in Profil. I'm hungry for his complete set in C-major (different performances altogether).


Can you please say more about the C-major set? I still very much like this recording though. The brass is exquisite, and as I said, no muddiness in the massed strings.

No. 7 is also terrific, but for me no. 8 has very poor sonics, although the performance is excellent.


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## Granate

I know nothing relevant about the C-major/Unitel set. Only that Bruckner No.1 is supposedly recorded. Back in September 2017 Thielemann and the SKD had two concerts in the Semperoper and another couple in Milan. That adds to Symphonies No.3-9 already released on Blu-ray and DVD by C-major. Bruckner No.2 should have a try this 2018, and if the label and Thielemann agree, we would wait another year so they record the study symphonies (improbable). No.7 can be tricky. There has been a Blu-ray recording but released by Opus Arte and not C-major. The existence of the excellent Profil release makes the gap irrelevant.

Then, after the completion, Universal and Sony would fight for the release rights on CD. Sony has better odds since the last C-major Bruckner cycle ended up in DG (Barenboim, though this one was Accentus) and the Beethoven DVD project with Thielemann was later released by Sony.

Besides, what other Bruckner cycle does Sony have in their catalogue? Wand Köln and Masur Leipzig? DG has countless!

You can find a rip of the C-major No.4 on Youtube.


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## merlinus

Thanks very much for the information. Sadly, youtube is never better than mp3 quality. As you wrote, it will be interesting to see which record label might issue these perfomances. I did not realize that the no. 4 on C-Major was different from the Profil cd release.


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## joen_cph

Am very surprised to the the Paternostro set mentioned up there. Only the 5th was barely acceptable to my ears, and I skipped the set. Well, opinions vary ...


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## Samael420

That's an impressive list, Granate!
I have only listened to maybe a very small selection of recordings that you ranked.
One name that keeps popping up (also in some other threads) is Simone Young. I haven't listened to any of her recordings; couldn't find any on youtube or on other sources, and was thinking of buying some from Amazon. Should I start with the 4th?


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## Granate

Welcome to Talk Classical, Samael420. Very glad you have already started your journey with Bruckner. I finished it a long time ago.

About the Oehms Young set, see this thread.

Always keep in mind that Simone Young uses first versions. Also, all her recordings and more Bruckner can be found on Spotify.

In my opinion, a good recording of the Oeser or 3rd Nowak editions of No.3 is an excellent beginning for Bruckner. The 4th is great too, but the Bruckner charachteristics are dimer.


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## Granate

joen_cph said:


> Am very surprised to the the Paternostro set mentioned up there. Only the 5th was barely acceptable to my ears, and I skipped the set. Well, opinions vary ...


If you asked me about the rest of the Paternostro cycle, this No.4 would be a happy accident.


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## merlinus

Granate said:


> In my opinion, a good recording of the Oeser or 3rd Nowak editions of No.3 is an excellent beginning for Bruckner. The 4th is great too, but the Bruckner charachteristics are dimer.


I disagree with No. 3 as a starting point for appreciation of Bruckner because that symphony has so many different versions. I would recommend no. 4 or no. 7, although my first exposure to AB was no. 8.

For no. 4 Thielemann/SKD or Wand/BPO. For no. 7, Thielemann/SKD or Giulini/VPO. There are of course many alternatives, but for me excellent and clear recordings are vital for this music.

Sadly, almost all of Karajan's recordings are poor quality. His no. 7 with the VPO in 1989 is an exception. Excellent in all regards.

Van Zweden/NRSO is also highly recommended.


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## Fabulin

I very much liked the Gergiev & Munich Philharmonic version.


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## DavidA

Funny how we hear things differently. For me Karajan’s EMI recording easily outpaces his DG and remains the best recording besides the DG Jochum. Not that the Karajan DG is bad - just that the EMI is superlative


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## joen_cph

Among Karajan's, I prefer the EMI too. Some conductors take a more fast or swift approach, still keeping the monumentality, though; should I grab just three, it would probably be Barenboim/teldec, Karajan/EMI, and Abendroth/berlin classics for the sheer capricciousness and unpredictable ongoings. 

Böhm/decca on CD has better sound than the LP & I was pleasantly surprised by that one recently. There are many more, good ones as well.


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## Granate

DavidA said:


> Funny how we hear things differently. For me Karajan's EMI recording easily outpaces his DG and remains the best recording besides the DG Jochum. Not that the Karajan DG is bad - just that the EMI is superlative


I just amaze myself how these very old Bruckner threads keep coming back to me when I have listened to many more recordings and I feel much wiser than I was then (Sigh). I'm not really proving you right. I haven't warmed up to the Karajan EMI yet even if I own the latest remaster.


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