# Why aren't Brahms piano sonatas recorded more?



## staxomega

There are plenty of recordings of the intermezzi, variations, ballades, etc. The piano sonatas are recorded _much less_ often, even well known Brahms interpreters like Nicholas Angelich hasn't recorded them. And what few recordings we have don't hold up that well to Katchen particularly with the third. If I recall even Idil Biret's which have good reviews are only available as part of an expensive box set whereas the other solo piano music is available on cheaper individual CDs.


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## Quartetfore

staxomega said:


> There are plenty of recordings of the intermezzi, variations, ballades, etc. The piano sonatas are recorded _much less_ often, even well known Brahms interpreters like Nicholas Angelich hasn't recorded them. And what few recordings we have don't hold up that well to Katchen particularly with the third. If I recall even Idil Biret's which have good reviews are only available as part of an expensive box set whereas the other solo piano music is available on cheaper individual CDs.


They are not easy to play, and I don`t think that they the appeal of his later piano works.


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## Bulldog

General consensus seems to be that the sonatas do not approach the excellence of some of his other piano works; I think there's some merit to that conclusion.


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## staxomega

The third is a stone cold masterpiece


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## Josquin13

Piano Sonatas 1 & 2 (Op. 1 & 2) are Brahms very first published compositions, and are not generally considered to be among his finest solo piano works. Personally, they've never appealed to me, not even when played by Sviatoslav Richter, who championed them throughout his career, or Julius Katchen either. Piano Sonata No. 3, Op. 5 is another early work, and is generally regarded as the finest of the three (though it may get underrated compared to the later works). However, I would disagree that it is under recorded, since many notable pianists--both past & present--have recorded No. 3.

In fact, among pianists that are known for their Brahms, Nicholas Angelich (who you mention) is more the exception than the rule. As the majority of highly regarded Brahms pianists have recorded one or more of the sonatas--with the exception of Wilhelm Backhaus, Emil Gilels, Dmitri Alexeev, Ivan Moravec, Ivo Janssen, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, and Stephen Kovacevich (& Angelich). 

Here's a list (which is likely imperfect & incomplete) of notable pianists that have recorded these works, & I've put an asterisk by the names of those pianists that are especially well regarded for their Brahms playing (though that doesn't necessarily mean they're better than all the rest):

*Nelson Freire—No. 3
François-Frederic Guy—all three
Murray Perahia—No. 3
*Emmanuel Ax—No. 3
*Sviatoslav Richter—all three
Yefim Bronfman—No. 3
Lars Vogt—all three
*Krystian Zimerman—all three
*Julius Katchen—all three
Jonathan Plowright—Nos. 2 & 3 (Plowright will be recording No. 1 as part of his Brahms cycle)
*Bruno Leonardo Gelber—No. 3
*Helene Grimaud—Nos. 2, 3
Jon Nakamatsu—No. 3
Idil Biret—all three
Shura Cherkassky—No. 3
Anatol Ugorski—all three
*Clifford Curzon—No. 3
*Solomon—No. 3
*Wilhelm Kempff—No. 3
*Artur Rubinstein—No. 3
*Claudio Arrau—Nos. 2, 3
*Radu Lupu—No. 3
Alexander Melnikov—Nos. 1 & 2
Gerard Oppitz—all three
*Dmitri Bashkirov—Nos. 2 & 3
Geoffroy Couteau--all three
Nikolai Petrov—No. 1
*Andrea Bonatta—all three (Bonata also wrote a valuable book on playing Brahms solo piano works)
Burkard Schliessmann—No. 3
*Elisabeth Leonskaja—Nos. 1 & 3
Antonin Kubalek—No. 3
Daniel Barenboim—No. 3
Martin Jones—all three
Grigory Sokolov—No. 3
Anton Kuerti—No. 3
Stefan Vladar—No. 1
Walter Klein—No. 3
Jean-Frederic Neuburger—all three
Jorge Federico Osorio—Nos. 2 & 3
Elisso Wirssaladze—No. 1
Peter Rösel—all three
*Hardy Rittner—all three
Inger Sodergren—No. 3
Paul Badura-Skoda—No. 3
*Walter Gieseking—No. 3
Cyprien Katsaris—No. 3
Andreas Boyde—all three
*Edwin Fischer—No. 3
Nikita Magloff—No. 3
Stephen Hough—No. 3
Barry Douglas--all three


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## Mandryka

Do the Brahms experts here think that the sonatas are recorded less frequently than the ballades? That's my feeling, though I've never really looked in to it. I'd be interested to know whether the pianists think that the ballades are any better than the sonatas.


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## Mandryka

staxomega said:


> The third is a stone cold masterpiece


The last two or three movements I don't like much.


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> Piano Sonatas 1 & 2 (Op. 1 & 2) are Brahms very first published compositions, and are not generally considered to be among his finest solo piano works. Personally, they've never appealed to me, not even when played by Sviatoslav Richter, who championed them throughout his career, or Julius Katchen either. Piano Sonata No. 3, Op. 5 is another early work, and is generally regarded as the finest of the three (though it may get underrated compared to the later works). However, I would disagree that it is under recorded, since many notable pianists--both past & present--have recorded No. 3.
> 
> In fact, among pianists that are known for their Brahms, Nicholas Angelich (who you mention) is more the exception than the rule. As the majority of highly regarded Brahms pianists have recorded one or more of the sonatas--with the exception of Wilhelm Backhaus, Emil Gilels, Dmitri Alexeev, Ivan Moravec, Ivo Janssen, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, and Stephen Kovacevich (& Angelich).
> 
> Here's a list (which is likely imperfect & incomplete) of notable pianists that have recorded these works, & I've put an asterisk by the names of those pianists that are especially well regarded for their Brahms playing (though that doesn't necessarily mean they're better than all the rest):
> 
> *Nelson Freire-No. 3
> François-Frederic Guy-all three
> Murray Perahia-No. 3
> *Emmanuel Ax-No. 3
> *Sviatoslav Richter-all three
> Yefim Bronfman-No. 3
> Lars Vogt-all three
> *Krystian Zimerman-all three
> *Julius Katchen-all three
> Jonathan Plowright-Nos. 2 & 3 (Plowright will be recording No. 1 as part of his Brahms cycle)
> *Bruno Leonardo Gelber-No. 3
> *Helene Grimaud-Nos. 2, 3
> Jon Nakamatsu-No. 3
> Idil Biret-all three
> Shura Cherkassky-No. 3
> Anatol Ugorski-all three
> *Clifford Curzon-No. 3
> *Solomon-No. 3
> *Wilhelm Kempff-No. 3
> *Artur Rubinstein-No. 3
> *Claudio Arrau-Nos. 2, 3
> *Radu Lupu-No. 3
> Alexander Melnikov-Nos. 1 & 2
> Gerard Oppitz-all three
> *Dmitri Bashkirov-Nos. 2 & 3
> Geoffroy Couteau--all three
> Nikolai Petrov-No. 1
> *Andrea Bonatta-all three (Bonata also wrote a valuable book on playing Brahms solo piano works)
> Burkard Schliessmann-No. 3
> *Elisabeth Leonskaja-Nos. 1 & 3
> Antonin Kubalek-No. 3
> Daniel Barenboim-No. 3
> Martin Jones-all three
> Grigory Sokolov-No. 3
> Anton Kuerti-No. 3
> Stefan Vladar-No. 1
> Walter Klein-No. 3
> Jean-Frederic Neuburger-all three
> Jorge Federico Osorio-Nos. 2 & 3
> Elisso Wirssaladze-No. 1
> Peter Rösel-all three
> *Hardy Rittner-all three
> Inger Sodergren-No. 3
> Paul Badura-Skoda-No. 3
> *Walter Gieseking-No. 3
> Cyprien Katsaris-No. 3
> Andreas Boyde-all three
> *Edwin Fischer-No. 3
> Nikita Magloff-No. 3
> Stephen Hough-No. 3
> Barry Douglas--all three


You forgot a more successful one -- Kocsis - 3. And Maria Yudina (3) These's also William Masselos in 1. Did Heidsieck record it? (I have him playing it)


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## Roger Knox

Mandryka said:


> The last two or three movements I don't like much.


People have different opinions. To me the third movement is an exciting, wide-ranging Scherzo, in keeping with the scope of the first movement. The fourth is a brief autumnal, minor-key recollection of the spring-like romance of the second. When the fifth movement's major-key theme arrives I would say yes, it is commonplace, but in the way the theme of Brahms's _First Symphony's_ Finale is commonplace: simpler, happier, resolving the tension in previous music. The fifth is probably the sonata's weakest movement; nevertheless, as the conclusion of the work's 5-movement arch form I believe it is a success. I've performed this work and the second movement is pure magic towards the end -- still remember comments from many years ago.


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## staxomega

Josquin13 said:


> Piano Sonatas 1 & 2 (Op. 1 & 2) are Brahms very first published compositions, and are not generally considered to be among his finest solo piano works. Personally, they've never appealed to me, not even when played by Sviatoslav Richter, who championed them throughout his career, or Julius Katchen either. Piano Sonata No. 3, Op. 5 is another early work, and is generally regarded as the finest of the three (though it may get underrated compared to the later works). However, I would disagree that it is under recorded, since many notable pianists--both past & present--have recorded No. 3.
> 
> In fact, among pianists that are known for their Brahms, Nicholas Angelich (who you mention) is more the exception than the rule. As the majority of highly regarded Brahms pianists have recorded one or more of the sonatas--with the exception of Wilhelm Backhaus, Emil Gilels, Dmitri Alexeev, Ivan Moravec, Ivo Janssen, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, and Stephen Kovacevich (& Angelich).
> 
> Here's a list (which is likely imperfect & incomplete) of notable pianists that have recorded these works, & I've put an asterisk by the names of those pianists that are especially well regarded for their Brahms playing (though that doesn't necessarily mean they're better than all the rest):
> 
> *Nelson Freire-No. 3
> François-Frederic Guy-all three
> Murray Perahia-No. 3
> *Emmanuel Ax-No. 3
> *Sviatoslav Richter-all three
> Yefim Bronfman-No. 3
> Lars Vogt-all three
> *Krystian Zimerman-all three
> *Julius Katchen-all three
> Jonathan Plowright-Nos. 2 & 3 (Plowright will be recording No. 1 as part of his Brahms cycle)
> *Bruno Leonardo Gelber-No. 3
> *Helene Grimaud-Nos. 2, 3
> Jon Nakamatsu-No. 3
> Idil Biret-all three
> Shura Cherkassky-No. 3
> Anatol Ugorski-all three
> *Clifford Curzon-No. 3
> *Solomon-No. 3
> *Wilhelm Kempff-No. 3
> *Artur Rubinstein-No. 3
> *Claudio Arrau-Nos. 2, 3
> *Radu Lupu-No. 3
> Alexander Melnikov-Nos. 1 & 2
> Gerard Oppitz-all three
> *Dmitri Bashkirov-Nos. 2 & 3
> Geoffroy Couteau--all three
> Nikolai Petrov-No. 1
> *Andrea Bonatta-all three (Bonata also wrote a valuable book on playing Brahms solo piano works)
> Burkard Schliessmann-No. 3
> *Elisabeth Leonskaja-Nos. 1 & 3
> Antonin Kubalek-No. 3
> Daniel Barenboim-No. 3
> Martin Jones-all three
> Grigory Sokolov-No. 3
> Anton Kuerti-No. 3
> Stefan Vladar-No. 1
> Walter Klein-No. 3
> Jean-Frederic Neuburger-all three
> Jorge Federico Osorio-Nos. 2 & 3
> Elisso Wirssaladze-No. 1
> Peter Rösel-all three
> *Hardy Rittner-all three
> Inger Sodergren-No. 3
> Paul Badura-Skoda-No. 3
> *Walter Gieseking-No. 3
> Cyprien Katsaris-No. 3
> Andreas Boyde-all three
> *Edwin Fischer-No. 3
> Nikita Magloff-No. 3
> Stephen Hough-No. 3
> Barry Douglas--all three


Thank you very much! I knew the third was recorded more than the first two (and rightly so), just not to this extent.

I will second Mandryka's question, is there any in print or video documentation of pianists speaking about the sonatas in comparison to Brahms' later works?


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Do the Brahms experts here think that the sonatas are recorded less frequently than the ballades? That's my feeling, though I've never really looked in to it.


Here are the number of recordings per ArkivMusic:

Ballades - 57
Sonata 1 - 36
Sonata 2 - 31
Sonata 3 - 79

I was surprised to find that 79 count; didn't realize it was so popular.


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## tdc

I enjoy Brahms piano sonatas but don't listen to them very often in comparison to his other piano works. I just feel that Brahms really was a master of the more free structured pieces and the piano miniature (not that he was poor with larger structures, but in that area I think he excels most clearly in the symphonies) the Handel variations are also outstanding. In general with piano music I tend to prefer the concision of the forms more typical of the Baroque and Modern era to sonata form so I'm a little biased.


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## Guest

François-Frédéric Guy has recorded all three Sonatas.


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## clavichorder

If any one of them is recorded more, it's the 3rd. I agree that it's an early masterpiece.


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## Luchesi

clavichorder said:


> If any one of them is recorded more, it's the 3rd. I agree that it's an early masterpiece.


Yes. How much did he destroy before this last one? Interesting.

How much did Mozart do away with? It seems unlikely with such a large number of pieces from him. I'm not a conspiracist.


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## Guest

Kontrapunctus said:


> François-Frédéric Guy has recorded all three Sonatas.


Oops...I missed that one on Josquin13's massive list!


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## AfterHours

As regards the 3rd, I would be surprised if the following performance by Andre Laplante has ever been surpassed:

*Piano Sonata No. 3 in F Minor - Johannes Brahms (1853) *

Spotify: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Eqy+rxqyL.jpg

Youtube: *(1st Mov)* 



 *(2nd Mov)* 



 *(3rd Mov)* 



 *(4th Mov)* 



 *(5th Mov)*


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## Botschaft

AfterHours said:


> As regards the 3rd, I would be surprised if the following performance by Andre Laplante has ever been surpassed:
> 
> *Piano Sonata No. 3 in F Minor - Johannes Brahms (1853) *
> 
> Spotify: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Eqy+rxqyL.jpg
> 
> Youtube: *(1st Mov)*
> 
> 
> 
> *(2nd Mov)*
> 
> 
> 
> *(3rd Mov)*
> 
> 
> 
> *(4th Mov)*
> 
> 
> 
> *(5th Mov)*


The one by Radu Lupu is pretty immaculate.


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## Roger Knox

With Radu Lupu every poetic avenue opens up, every detail is considered. The question is, in the first movement, whether there is enough sense of forward motion. I would like more, saving for the second movement the most intimate playing. His second movement in any case is wonderfully loving, breathing, nuanced. Hear 20:14-24:07 . . .
The same goes for the fourth movement. He gets the swagger in the scherzo and the nobility of the Trio. In the last movement he projects mystery and changes of emotion -- as I hear Brahms now there is much anguish, but no giving in to it. A quick flourish at the end . . . . finally . . . and it's over.


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## Botschaft

Roger Knox said:


> With Radu Lupu every poetic avenue opens up, every detail is considered. The question is, in the first movement, whether there is enough sense of forward motion. I would like more, saving for the second movement the most intimate playing.


It is perhaps a bit slow, but in this case it might be preferable to sacrifice some speed for the sake of articulacy. One wonders how the composer himself would have played the piece.


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## Luchesi

Here's Brahms playing.






He wrote Clara about recordings he'd heard...

"Brahms was there and was amazed by what he heard, which included recordings of an aria sung by Lili Lehmann, a spoken telegram and a piano piece, and wrote to Clara Schumann that "it's as though one were living a fairy-tale". A date was set to record Brahms himself a month later, and on Monday 2 December 1889 Theo Wangemann set up his recording equipment in the Viennese home of Brahms' friends Dr Richard and Maria Fellinger."


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## Heliogabo

Luchesi said:


> Here's Brahms playing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He wrote Clara about recordings he'd heard...
> 
> "Brahms was there and was amazed by what he heard, which included recordings of an aria sung by Lili Lehmann, a spoken telegram and a piano piece, and wrote to Clara Schumann that "it's as though one were living a fairy-tale". A date was set to record Brahms himself a month later, and on Monday 2 December 1889 Theo Wangemann set up his recording equipment in the Viennese home of Brahms' friends Dr Richard and Maria Fellinger."


I didn't knew about this. Thanks for sharing.


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## lextune

Richter transforms the 1st and 2nd Sonatas into towering masterpieces. The reason they aren't recorded more is that to do so is extremely difficult.

The 3rd is well represented because its genius is markedly easier to realize.


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## Triplets

staxomega said:


> The third is a stone cold masterpiece


That is what I've read by numerous critics. I find all 3 a tough slog


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## staxomega

My new favorite performance of PS3 might now be a live recording Annie Fischer made in 1961.


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## BiscuityBoyle

Josquin13 said:


> Piano Sonatas 1 & 2 (Op. 1 & 2) are Brahms very first published compositions, and are not generally considered to be among his finest solo piano works. Personally, they've never appealed to me, not even when played by Sviatoslav Richter, who championed them throughout his career, or Julius Katchen either. Piano Sonata No. 3, Op. 5 is another early work, and is generally regarded as the finest of the three (though it may get underrated compared to the later works). However, I would disagree that it is under recorded, since many notable pianists--both past & present--have recorded No. 3.
> 
> In fact, among pianists that are known for their Brahms, Nicholas Angelich (who you mention) is more the exception than the rule. As the majority of highly regarded Brahms pianists have recorded one or more of the sonatas--with the exception of Wilhelm Backhaus, Emil Gilels, Dmitri Alexeev, Ivan Moravec, Ivo Janssen, Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli, and Stephen Kovacevich (& Angelich).
> 
> Here's a list (which is likely imperfect & incomplete) of notable pianists that have recorded these works, & I've put an asterisk by the names of those pianists that are especially well regarded for their Brahms playing (though that doesn't necessarily mean they're better than all the rest):
> 
> *Nelson Freire-No. 3
> François-Frederic Guy-all three
> Murray Perahia-No. 3
> *Emmanuel Ax-No. 3
> *Sviatoslav Richter-all three
> Yefim Bronfman-No. 3
> Lars Vogt-all three
> *Krystian Zimerman-all three
> *Julius Katchen-all three
> Jonathan Plowright-Nos. 2 & 3 (Plowright will be recording No. 1 as part of his Brahms cycle)
> *Bruno Leonardo Gelber-No. 3
> *Helene Grimaud-Nos. 2, 3
> Jon Nakamatsu-No. 3
> Idil Biret-all three
> Shura Cherkassky-No. 3
> Anatol Ugorski-all three
> *Clifford Curzon-No. 3
> *Solomon-No. 3
> *Wilhelm Kempff-No. 3
> *Artur Rubinstein-No. 3
> *Claudio Arrau-Nos. 2, 3
> *Radu Lupu-No. 3
> Alexander Melnikov-Nos. 1 & 2
> Gerard Oppitz-all three
> *Dmitri Bashkirov-Nos. 2 & 3
> Geoffroy Couteau--all three
> Nikolai Petrov-No. 1
> *Andrea Bonatta-all three (Bonata also wrote a valuable book on playing Brahms solo piano works)
> Burkard Schliessmann-No. 3
> *Elisabeth Leonskaja-Nos. 1 & 3
> Antonin Kubalek-No. 3
> Daniel Barenboim-No. 3
> Martin Jones-all three
> Grigory Sokolov-No. 3
> Anton Kuerti-No. 3
> Stefan Vladar-No. 1
> Walter Klein-No. 3
> Jean-Frederic Neuburger-all three
> Jorge Federico Osorio-Nos. 2 & 3
> Elisso Wirssaladze-No. 1
> Peter Rösel-all three
> *Hardy Rittner-all three
> Inger Sodergren-No. 3
> Paul Badura-Skoda-No. 3
> *Walter Gieseking-No. 3
> Cyprien Katsaris-No. 3
> Andreas Boyde-all three
> *Edwin Fischer-No. 3
> Nikita Magloff-No. 3
> Stephen Hough-No. 3
> Barry Douglas--all three


Richter never played the 3rd, just the first two. There are, however, excellent Soviet recordings by Lazar Berman and especially Richter's criminally little known two piano partner Anatoly Vedernikov


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## Larkenfield

Edwin Fisher's was a tremendous performance of the Brahms 3rd Piano Sonata. The slow movement is epic and almost Wagnerian in scope, with the sonata full of impressive big ideas. (Fisher also did a tremendous piano roll performance that can be heard on Nimbus records.) He's the only one who's ever really sold me on this serious and ambitious sonata. Why the first three sonatas aren't more popular is because I believe their technical demands make them very difficult to play and they lack the same memorable melodic interest as his later works. Of the three, I like the 3rd the best, and the Andante is super intimate, tender and romantic.


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## staxomega

Well I uploaded Annie Fischer's piano sonata 3 I referred to last month to Youtube and got a DMCA take down notice and a warning that my Google account will be suspended if it happens two more times. In hindsight I should have never used my main account.


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## PlaySalieri

I havent listened to too much Brahms solo piano - and what I have heard did not interest me. V strange - as I love brahms other works, chamber, concertos symphonies.
I think Britten said he would play brahms solo piano every year and still couldnt find anything in it.


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## Larkenfield

Apologies to the legendary Edwin Fischer for misspelling his name. He might be watching.


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## Biffo

Mandryka said:


> Do the Brahms experts here think that the sonatas are recorded less frequently than the ballades? That's my feeling, though I've never really looked in to it. I'd be interested to know whether the pianists think that the ballades are any better than the sonatas.


Alfred Brendel has quite a lot to say about Brahms in his book The Veil of Order. He doesn't make a direct comparison between the Sonatas and the Ballades. He says he only likes the middle three movements of the 3rd sonata and is scathing about the Finale.

Earlier he says '..a period between the first piano trio and the first string sextet - which for me personally contains his most beautiful music. There is a purity of feeling which I hardly find later in this form.....I'm thinking of the wonderful D minor piano concerto; also of the the Ballades of op 10, the fourth of which, alas, misfired in my own recording'.


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## Triplets

To answer the original question, the 3 Sonatas are pretty boring fare. The late Piano Music shows a concision that the young Brahms lacked.
For me the more interesting question is why the older and wiser Brahms never returned to the Sonata form?


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