# 32-1=?



## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

Just another case of curiosity and one that was most certainly inspired by the untimely death of FPS. 

So, what I'm curious to know is this; of your favorite composer(s), what do you consider to be the most single significant piece of work that they produced by the tender age of 31, and how would you rank it with other works that you might consider to be of similar significance by other composers. Would you rank it as superior, about the same or inferior? Of course this is not limited to any number of composers, feel free to include any and all composers that you'd like. 

For me, Don Giovanni would be Mozart's most important work by age 31, and the piano sonata #8 in C minor ("Pathétique) would be Beethoven's most important work by age 31. As for Schubert, his 8th symphony would be his most important work, if only had he had the chance to finish it, of course others might opt for the string quartet in D minor or one of his Lieders. I wouldn't know how to rank these works, because I feel that I'm unqualified to do so.

Opinions vary and that's exactly what I want to see. 

Ps. Please don't kill me for starting such a thread. 


TPS


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring, probably the most important work of his entire career.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Good suggestions. 

Maybe Mendelssohn's Octet.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Hector Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique. Berlioz was 27 when he finished this symphony. Its programmatic nature, use of the idée fixe as a device to bind all five movements together, and superb orchestration made it a model for the next eighty years of symphonic writing.


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## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, I'll try to do this for Mahler, Berlioz, Brahms and Tchaikovsky.

Mahler didn't finish much by the age of 31 aside from some lieder and his _1st Symphony_ (which was still in it's first version), so I'd go with the symphony. I'm quite a big fan of this piece, although it's probably the least 'Mahler-like' of his symphonies as he was still developing his style.

For Berlioz I would have to choose his _Symphonie Fantastique_, which is probably his best known work and quite a fine achievement for a composer so young.

Most of Tchaikovsky's major works were composed in his 30s, so I'll have to go with his _Romeo and Juliet Overture_. Not a ground-breaking work, but still a fine programmatic piece.

I wish I could pick Brahms' _German Requiem_ which was composed when he was 32-33, but I'll have to pick his _1st Piano Concerto_ which is a greatly loved piece and one of his finest.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Shostakovich had five symphonies completed. Nos. 4 & 5 were to rank among the best of his 15. The String Quartets had not begun.


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## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

This was when Liszt was firmly in his virtuoso years and hadn't really developed as a composer, however he does have some good stuff from here. I'm not sure which work would be his greatest at this point...but off the top of my head I think some of the best are... (No order aside from the one on top). (Not including his masterful transcriptions).

Réminiscences de Norma. (If I HAD to pick one, this would be it).
Réminiscences de Don Juan.
Malédiction.
Piano Concerto No. 3.
Vallé d'Obermann, first version.
Apparition No. 1.
Les cloches de Geneve, first version.
De Profundis.
Au bord d'un source, first version.
Grande fantaisie symphonique on themes from Berlioz's 'Lélio'

I've actually been exploring this early music of Liszt lately. There is a lot of good stuff there (much, much more than I listed), and the earlier versions of the more famous works are very interesting. Many of the works listed above show remarkable originality for their time...Just listen to Malédiction (1833) and De Profundis (1834). Both are flawed works, but for their time they are very striking to say the least. Also Au bord d'un source (1836) flirts with impressionism. In this time, even the best Liszt tends to be good, rather than great (I would call the Norma and Don Juan Fantasies great though). Many of his pieces are just interesting and nothing more, many way overdone (a lot of the time intentionally, but also often not) but again there is a lot of good stuff. But the one thing that can not be denied, even at this age, is his originality.

I've listened to much of his output at 31, and to me as a composer at that time he was a fair bit below Schumann and Chopin at the same age, but well above the other prominent virtuosi of the time like Thalberg, Herz, and Pixis.

But to actually answer the question of the thread...I don't think any of these works can be considered very important. But I simply think the best one of the list is the Norma Fantasy, so I will pick that. I would call it a top 50 solo piano work, but I may just be the only one...


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

TheProudSquire said:


> As for Schubert, his 8th symphony would be his most important work, if only had he had the chance to finish it


Schubert did not have the chance to finish his 10th symphony, because death intervened. As for his eighth symphony, *it was his decision* not to complete the third movement, the scherzo. In fact he tore the score between the first and the second page of the scherzo. He could not get rid of the first page because it was written on the back side the the last page of the second movement. Obviously he did not want to proceed with composing the symphony.

The torn out second page was discovered in 1964, followed by unwritten pages.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

AmateurComposer said:


> Schubert did not have the chance to finish his 10th symphony, because death intervened. As for his eighth symphony, *it was his decision* not to complete the third movement, the scherzo. In fact he tore the score between the first and the second page of the scherzo. He could not get rid of the first page because it was written on the back side the the last page of the second movement. Obviously he did not want to proceed with composing the symphony.
> 
> The torn out second page was discovered in 1964, followed by unwritten pages.


That I did not know . I simply thought that he had put the project aside in the hopes of finishing it another time. Thanks for clearing that up AC, I truly appreciate it. :]


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## Klavierspieler (Jul 16, 2011)

Schumann, unranked:

Carnival 
Fantasie in C
Kreisleriana
Dichterliebe


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Let's see... by age 31, Chopin had completed...

- 2 Piano Concertos and the Grande Polonaise
- Both sets of Etudes
- 2 Ballades
- 2 Piano Sonatas
- 3 Scherzos
- Preludes, Op. 28
- Many waltzes, mazurkas, and nocturnes

Not too shabby.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Ive picked Antonin Dvorak.

He was very self-critical as a young man so about a third of his known works at this time have been lost and many more likely destroyed.

From the works we know, not a single one is often performed or recognised nowadays, it seems he was a late bloomer. Therefore none of these will hold a candle to the young works of all the other composers mentioned, but if I had to pick the most significant of them I would go for the first string quartet, which reveals glimpses of the future genius.

There are perhaps greater works written in that time, but they were never performed or perhaps performed only later on. Also I would likely have chosen his opera, the King and the Charcoal burner which was the first major work to be received well by critics and public, but the version we know is a rewrite written past his 31st.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Benjamin Britten's acknowledged output from op. 1 (written when he was 18/19) up to Peter Grimes (op. 33 - completed by the time he was 31) wouldn't look too shabby even if he'd stopped there.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I think Schubert is the greatest composer at the age of 31..

* Consider what Schubert accomplished by the time of his death in 1828:*

• _A long string of chamber music masterpieces, capped by the incomprehensibly beautiful C Major String Quintet;
• Six settings of the Mass, the last two of which are among the jewels of the choral literature;
• Hundreds of songs;
• Many piano sonatas, capped by three enormous ones written in the space of a month or two during his last illness;
• And, of course, the Eighth and Ninth Symphonies._


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Yeah, it's hard to argue against Schubert on this one. A case of half as long but twice as bright in the extreme.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Stravinsky's best work written when he was 31 was the opera "The Nightingale."

Now for something a bit different:

When _I_ am 31 I plan on composing my 22nd Symphony, a collection of pieces using poems by E. E. Cummings, my 37th violin concerto, another chamber opera, my 15th guitar sonata and my first piano concerto.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Frank Zappa: Lumpy Gravy, and The Adventures Of Greggery Peccary. Lots of fine orchestral composition on 200 Motels too!


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## AmateurComposer (Sep 13, 2009)

TheProudSquire said:


> That I did not know ...Thanks for clearing that up AC, I truly appreciate it.


You are welcome.



TheProudSquire said:


> I simply thought that he had put the project aside in the hopes of
> finishing it another time.


Well. you are not the only one who thought so, many other published similar thoughts. While nobody can tell for sure what Schubert would have done had he survived past his 31st year to a ripe old age, there is no evidence that in the five or so years of his life following his submission of his eighth symphony to the Styrian Music Society in Graz, he made any attempt to complete the symphony, or any other of his unfinished works. He persisted on starting new projects.

By the way, I would like to take this opportunity correct my mistake in my previous post. The torn out page of the scherzo was discovered in 1968, not in 1964.

My source of information are the two excellent books about Franz Peter Schubert by the musicologist Brian Newbould. These books provide detailed biography and analysis of Schubert's works.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

AmateurComposer said:


> You are welcome.
> 
> Well. you are not the only one who thought so, many other published similar thoughts. While nobody can tell for sure what Schubert would have done had he survived past his 31st year to a ripe old age, there is no evidence that in the five or so years of his life following his submission of his eighth symphony to the Styrian Music Society in Graz, he made any attempt to complete the symphony, or any other of his unfinished works. He persisted on starting new projects.
> 
> ...


Cool. I think I'll check those books out as I am always interested in learning more about composers and their works. Once again, thank you for a most informative response. :]

TPS


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