# Jacob Obrecht



## Manxfeeder

*Jacob Obrecht* (1457-1505) died too young; Josquin Desprez outlived and overshadowed him. But he was very forward-thinking; as R.D. Ross observed, his "motets reveal the extent to which tonal root movements had overtaken modal root movements possibly for the first time in music history." Or as Richard Staines puts it, it "represents an early stage in the evolution of diatonic tonality."

He lived in times when masses were based on a cantus firmus (a predetermined melody), and he was skilled at manipulating it as a structural device. His Missa Maria Zart is almost Brucknerian in its length and structure; he breaks the chant up into segments for development.

"Obrecht's premature death deprived Europe of one of its most formidable musical intellects," Richard Staines observed.

Has anyone else explored his music?


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## hocket

Didn't spot this one earlier. Can't offer much in the way of technical analysis I'm afraid but the Clerk's Group's recording of the Missa Sub Tuum Praesidium is a particular favourite. The Gloria and Credo are especially thrilling. I'd quite like to get ahold of Rob Wegman's biography of him some time.

That generation of polyphonists was pretty extraordinary. Josquin, Obrecht, la Rue, Isaac, Agricola, Brumel, Compere and Mouton all born within about fifteen years of each other and all save Brumel coming from the region that in those days was known as the Netherlands.


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## Manxfeeder

hocket said:


> I'd quite like to get ahold of Rob Wegman's biography of him some time.


That book is worth reading. The frustrating part of the book for me was, since most of his music hasn't been recorded, you read about pieces you'll probably never hear. And he writes in such a way that it doesn't look or translate to a keyboard as good as it does when it's actually sung.

But I'm glad for what's out there. And if you ever find a recording of his Missa Fortuna Desperata, please drop me a line.


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## hocket

What do you think of those Hungarian ANS Chorus recordings?


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## Manxfeeder

hocket said:


> What do you think of those Hungarian ANS Chorus recordings?


My chief complaint is, they sound like they were recorded at the back of an echo chamber. Listening to an entire mass from them in one sitting wears me out as I'm trying to hear the details.


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## hocket

I've heard similar complaints before. I haven't actually had a problem with the acoustics myself and those records seemed fine enough until I heard their Agricola recordings which sound as if they might've been by the same composer...which is just ridiculous consiodering how idiosyncratic Agricola was.


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## Manxfeeder

hocket said:


> I haven't actually had a problem with the acoustics myself and those records seemed fine enough.


You're fortunate, because they have recorded more Obrecht pieces than most others.


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## hocket

Well, that's not exactly what I meant. Whilst I don't find them objectionable to listen to they just seem to lack any individuality as if they're just going through the motions.


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## Manxfeeder

hocket said:


> Well, that's not exactly what I meant. Whilst I don't find them objectionable to listen to they just seem to lack any individuality as if they're just going through the motions.


You think so too? I thought it was just me.


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## Mandryka

What do you lovers of early music think of the early music analogue of the Missa Solemnis, Missa Maria Zart? I have the Peter Philips recording, which is slow, and I'm quite tempted by an early LP, by The Madrigal Singers of Prague, which seems faster. Has anyone heard it? What's the style?


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## Chordalrock

Manxfeeder said:


> And if you ever find a recording of his Missa Fortuna Desperata, please drop me a line.


There appear to be some copies left:

http://shop.orf.at/1/shop.tmpl?art=4444&lang=EN

Perhaps you've heard of this release already. It's a double album with the masses "Fortuna desperata" and "Rose playsante". The kyries of both masses are Obrecht at his best, and some of the best Renaissance music from those decades, at least to my ears.

The singers do a fine enough job, maybe a bit too slow in tempo, and with a rather strange balance, with the bass dominating, especially in "Fortuna desperata", and the tenor sometimes being drowned out. On the other hand, you have close miking and everything that that implies, as well as generally excellent singing.


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## Mandryka

Chordalrock said:


> There appear to be some copies left:
> 
> http://shop.orf.at/1/shop.tmpl?art=4444&lang=EN
> 
> Perhaps you've heard of this release already. It's a double album with the masses "Fortuna desperata" and "Rose playsante". The kyries of both masses are Obrecht at his best, and some of the best Renaissance music from those decades, at least to my ears.
> 
> The singers do a fine enough job, maybe a bit too slow in tempo, and with a rather strange balance, with the bass dominating, especially in "Fortuna desperata", and the tenor sometimes being drowned out. On the other hand, you have close miking and everything that that implies, as well as generally excellent singing.


This came today. I've spent most of the week listening to Josquin masses - Gaudeamus and Pange Lingue and L'Homme Armé SVM (I've just discovered de Labyrintho) - and I can tell you it's quite a shock to dive into the tougher, more abstract world of Obrecht. I like Fortunae Desperata, but not as much as Maria Zart. Maybe I need to put a wider gap between it and Josquin.

I'm not keen on close miking, but I'm learning to turn the volume and find a certain sweet spot in my listening room.


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## Manxfeeder

Chordalrock said:


> There appear to be some copies left:
> 
> http://shop.orf.at/1/shop.tmpl?art=4444&lang=EN


Thank you, Chordalrock!


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## Mandryka

There's ANS live singing M. Maria Zart live on youtube- more vigorously and less reverentially than Tallis/Philips.


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