# All That Jazz



## Nox (Jul 22, 2004)

My 12 year old daughter is having her (our!) first Band Camp experience. Before we left last night, some of the staff put on an impromptu Jazz concert - 5 musicians who never played together before...trumpet, alto sax, double bass, piano, percussion...

...as I was listening to the concert I came to a conclusion...

...I don't like Jazz...

...it wasn't just them...although I commend them for putting together a 40 minute concert in no time at all...it wasn't, in my opinion, very good...it was the music itself...it all sounded the same! So what's the point?...

...and sadly to say...I was least impressed by the double bass player, apparently a prof. at the University of North Carolina (?)...

...they did well on a Norah Jones improv., but the rest was just noisy and was well on the way to giving me a headache...if it wasn't a Band Camp (re: learning experience) I would have left...


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## baroque flute (Jul 21, 2004)

Good for you, I guess! B) I don't like Jazz either--it gives me a headache, and makes me feel lost and empty. I am extremely affected by music, and Jazz can make me feel depressed the rest of the day.


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## Nox (Jul 22, 2004)

...LOL...I'm happy to hear that...(sad, eh??? :usd


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## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

I actually like some kinds of jazz. I think I know the type you are talking about, which I don't like either. If you ever get a chance to listen to Coleman Hawkin's "Bouncing with Bean" it might change your view on jazz.  Hey, Daniel, am I allowed to put this song up as an .mp3 file, or would that be a violation of copyright. I own the CD...


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Unfortunetly it IS a violation of copyright, i am sorry


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

I don't like Jazz much. It destroys my ability to listen to classical stuff after it. And it seems to be a bit superficcial and equal in every piece. In some improvisations it gets even aggressive for me and some are only virtuosic circus acts. The slower stuff is the easiest to listen for me. But in general I can't get into a jazz mood. It is too foreign for me


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## Nox (Jul 22, 2004)

...I am SO glad I'm not alone...


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## oistrach13 (Jul 14, 2004)

you aren't alone B)


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## Anton (Oct 17, 2004)

Well, i figure that chances are that the double bass sounded crazy because of tuning. Jazz instruments are tuned sometimes above or below what classical instruments play, so the proffesor (fine, he should know how to play jazz) kept on adjusting to whatever his classical tuning intuition told him. I learnt this on violinmasterclass.com which is relatively advanced.


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## Harvey (Jul 26, 2004)

Whenever I hear someone in my school's jazz band play a solo/improvisation/cadenza kind of thing, I get the impression that they're just playing random notes...
I think Jazz is boring anyway. Maybe if they wouldn't play the same thing again and again and again and again and again.


and again.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Yea, in our school was some blues and jazz music not long ago again. And I completely agree, it is boring, and really make feel me empty.


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## Quaverion (Jul 20, 2004)

I am sorry to hear that the jazz you heard when you were introduced to it was so boring. I never had the opportunity to play jazz at my high school. I must agree, there is a lot of jazz that I hate, but there is twice as much that I like that is not exposed to the general public as much as empty jazz.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Actually I have some jazz CDs and also by well known artists. Still remains the same.  A personal attitude and taste.


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## godzillaviolist (Jan 21, 2005)

*jazz*

I rember hearing a hillarious musical parody of jazz years ago, it made me laugh a lot. What made me laugh more was that when I showed it to someone who liked jazz, they thought it was a serious peice of music!
I have to say, jazz just irritates me. Also it took and ruined a perfectly good instrument ( the saxophone ). Now very few people can play the saxophone properly.
I remember waiting for a lesson at my conservatory last week and someone started playing jazz really loudly. It irritated me so badly I had to wait in another part of the building till my lesson...
godzilla


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

The saxophone...if you think of it, nearly everyone has the association of Jazz.
What saxophone-pieces would you suggest to listen to besides any Jazz?


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## godzillaviolist (Jan 21, 2005)

*saxophone...*



Daniel said:


> The saxophone...if you think of it, nearly everyone has the association of Jazz.
> What saxophone-pieces would you suggest to listen to besides any Jazz?


 Though this is a bit of generalisation; anything French. The french wrote for the saxophone all through out the Romantic era, before jazz became associated with it. Also, french saxophonists often develop a smooth "classical" tone; North American ones tend to sound like jazz players even in classical works. As for players from the rest of europe, it varies. 
A great saxophone chamber group is the Rascher quartet. I'll put a link to a sound sample of theirs.
godzilla


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## godzillaviolist (Jan 21, 2005)

*saxophone sound*

Here is a sound clip:

http://www.calarecords.com/sound files/CACD77003_01.mp3

It's the only sound clip I could find of the Rascher's playing their well known Bach arrangement.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Amazing! Shows again that Bach can be played with nearly all instruments. 

I remember the genious choice by Ravel to take the baritone (?) saxophone for the orchestration of the "Old castle" out of Mussorgsky's "Pictures of an exhibition".


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## LiLi (Aug 19, 2005)

aah i know this is an old thread but i have to respond.
I think jazz can be wonderful! i know some jazz is really tiring and boring but there are so many different kinds of jazz, improvised or not. 
also, improvising takes a lot more skill than just playing random notes. to improvise a chorus of a song, and sound well, the player has to study and memorize the chord sequence and all the different scales that go along with each of the chords. Given, some improvisors are less talented than others. but i would definitely recommend that a classical musician studied some jazz improv. It really helps you develop your theory and gives you a better understanding of msuic in general. And improvising with an ensemble brings you a great feeling of freedom and accomplishment.


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## jack_in_cincinnati (Mar 11, 2006)

What always cracks me up is how such a boring, innocuous genre of music is romanticized out of all proportion to its value by jazz "authorities." It's always being boomed up as being on the cutting edge of music, but, in reality, its harmonic and rhythmic "innovations," which have been done to death for decade after decade, were employed much earlier and more effectively by the likes of Debussy, Stravinsky, Ives, Beethoven, and the ragtime composers.

What the jazz aficionados always seem to gravitate to in their discussions is their idols' penchants for alcoholism and heroin addiction and the early deaths, prison sentences, and abject poverty that often resulted. They seem to be endlessly fascinated by that stuff.

I think I'm a pretty astute listener, certainly a highly experienced one. But I've tried and tried to bring jazz into my listening experience. I've sought out the highly recommended albums. It invariably leaves me cold and bored. Sorry.


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## Talia (Apr 13, 2006)

*But! Sarah Watts! Razzamajazz for kids!!!! Its excellent!!!!!!! *


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## saxoboe (Jul 9, 2006)

Daniel said:


> The saxophone...if you think of it, nearly everyone has the association of Jazz.
> What saxophone-pieces would you suggest to listen to besides any Jazz?


some saxophone pieces:
-Bolero (Ravel) has a tenor and a soprano sax in it
-Concerto in Eb major for alto sax and strings (Glazunov)
-Scaramouche (Milhaud)
-Fantasia for soprano sax, strings, and three horns (Villa-Lobos)
-Rhapsodie (Debussy)

Those are just a few =]
I'd be more than happy to let you know about some others.


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## saxoboe (Jul 9, 2006)

Saxophone is my main instrument. I can switch between classical and jazz no problem, it's just I have to brush up on some of my jazz skills. I'd just like to say that I used to not care for jazz. The more I play it, the more it grows on me. It may not be that exciting to watch, but playing it is really exciting. You can make it up as you go. Pretty much, you play off a lead sheet, and then bam, everyone just coordinates with each other, and it can be amazing how it turns out. Improvising is so much fun too. You can to compose your own solo right there off the top of your head. You can't do anything wrong or play it incorrectly. To an amateur ear, it just sounds slightly off. The only problem is having to decide which notes to play with the chords listed. Some of them are pretty crazy, but it's still really fun.


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## Daniel (Jul 11, 2004)

Hello Saxoboe and welcome! 

Thank you for the list, actually there are some!

Greetings,
Daniel.


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## Asperjames (Nov 25, 2006)

I love jazz; yes there is a lot of jazz out there that I find repetitive, boring, monotonous, etc. Especially when soloists seem to be playing random notes (ie. Sam Rivers playing Catta on Bobby Hutcherson's "Dialogue"...no clue what he was thinking...)

I love it just because of the improvisation. It takes so much practice to first become a virtuoso of your instrument, then to become an improviser, one that can instantly build a connection from the brain to the instrument, as if you are singing through it. Yeah, theoretically wise it is dry and not new; the advent of use of modes was a cry for "freedom" but I think that they got bored of traditional major/minor tonality (although most modal jazz pieces I have encountered do not harmonically employ any large sense of modality...I could be wrong). And I just dislike "free jazz"

But I can never go wrong with some good swing.


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## JfW (Dec 14, 2006)

I like some jazz. Mostly what amounts to 'swing'.



> Though this is a bit of generalisation; anything French. The french wrote for the saxophone all through out the Romantic era, before jazz became associated with it. Also, french saxophonists often develop a smooth "classical" tone; North American ones tend to sound like jazz players even in classical works. As for players from the rest of europe, it varies.
> A great saxophone chamber group is the Rascher quartet. I'll put a link to a sound sample of theirs.
> godzilla


I've heard enough classical saxophone, and I don't see what you mean. It may be that you identify with a certain style of saxophone play. Most saxophone players of any camp develop expertise in both Legitimate and Jazz music. There are a number of American players who sound superbly appropriate.


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## IAmKing (Dec 3, 2006)

I love most jazz. Especially free, chaotic jazz in the vein of Ornette Coleman, late-era John Coltrane, Cecil Taylor, Sun Ra, Derek Bailey etc.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2006)

jack_in_cincinnati said:


> I think I'm a pretty astute listener, certainly a highly experienced one. But I've tried and tried to bring jazz into my listening experience. I've sought out the highly recommended albums. It invariably leaves me cold and bored. Sorry.


I love jazz, and played in quite a few ensembles in my younger days both trad and modern [as it used to be called LOL] I found it easier to perform than Classical and so enjoyed it immensely, So Jack if you can find any Cds of MJQ "The Modern Jazz Quartet" have a listen, it is jazz chamber music played by master musicians.


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## 4/4player (Nov 17, 2006)

I'd say that jazz is one of my favorite music genre..its like my alternative to "rock" music....its just great to get away from the "strict" rules of classical music..and enter the "freedom" of jazz music. Its all about improv and how much "soul" the performer is willing to give...im going to try teach me either piano or trumpet in order to play some jazz music..though piano might be more versatile in switching between classical and jazz=)

Interesting thing about jazz music...have you heard of the american composer George Gershwin? Even so,his "Rhapsody in Blue for piano and orchestra"?I play the Bb clarinet...so I just love the glissando at the beginning! I think it should actually be put in the jazz category rather than the classical category. Well, hope I didn't offend anybody!
4/4player


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2007)

I absolutely agree with you 4 x 4, Gershwin is mainly musicals, and kind of pop, great tunes and many hits, and of course Porgy and Bess, An American in Paris but why he is listed as Classical still mystifies me.
But on our own NZ Classical Radio station we once had 'The Beatles' as Composer of the week, crazy


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Anyone listened to Miles Davis? That crowd are quite good!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2007)

Hi Ed
Yes I think Miles Davis is good, I must admit I seem to be locked into the late 50s - early 60s type of Jazz, lots of melody and improvisation of the classic hits.


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## Explorer-8 (Jan 18, 2007)

*jazz*

I like certain types of jazz, but the trouble with the pure jazz is that it is too restricted in what it can do or where it can lead to. Some of the great jazz musicians like Miles Davis and John Coltrane tried to push the boundaries of jazz further which suits me. Later on, jazz is used as a strong influence in a rock format, or vice versa and that suits me even more. This is when we have Weather Report, Henry Cow, Mahavishnu Orchestra, King Crimson and Magma.

One of the great classical composers, George Gershwin, brings together elements of jazz and classical in some great music like the Piano Concerto in F and the Rhapsody in Blue. Yesterday, I was listening to Shchedrin's Piano Concerto no 2 and there are some jazzy bits in the finale, but not enough, only about five minutes worth. The rest of the concerto was too dry for me. Shostakovich's jazz suite is too flippant.

Jazz itself has some great rhythms; great chords not usually used in classical music and some interesting instrumental sounds like vibraphones or guitars sometimes.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2007)

Vibraphones sound great for jazz but Amplified Guitar and bass guitar are a turn off for me, especially as played in rock, acoustic guitar for Flamenco, jazz and classical so much better IMHO.


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## IAmKing (Dec 3, 2006)

Edward Elgar said:


> Anyone listened to Miles Davis? That crowd are quite good!


Miles Davis is one of my favourite jazz musicians and composers. Really top quality bloke.

Lately I've been really interested in Ornette Coleman, particular his output between the late 50's and the late 60's. My latest purchase has been his album "The Shape of Jazz To Come" with Don Cherry on cornet, and it is exquisite.


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

The Ken Colyer Trust helps to keep alive the memory and spirit of Mr. Colyer's music. He played trumpet and cornet, and his bands produced a British version of New Orleans jazz. Please don't call it Trad! He was prominent in the Jazz revival years, particularly the 1950s, and continued to play and to develop his playing into the 1980s. 
The Trust publishes a quarterly newsletter, and I write the Sales Table News, listing CD titles newly available through the Trust.
Ken Colyer had many detractors, and any classical horn player is likely to leave the room on hearing his tone, but the magic in his playing, his subtle way of developing melody and rhythm, and the bluesy feel he had, drew to him a following that some see as almost fanatical. 
Website address: www.kencolyertrust.org
There is a message board there.


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## Keemun (Mar 2, 2007)

The problem is that a lot of the jazz heralded as great by so-called experts is really overrated. Example: John Coltrane gives me a headache, yet he's considered by many to have been a genius. Well, genius or not, I can't stand listening to his music. Miles Davis is pretty good, but his most popular album "Kind of Blue" features John Coltrane on sax, so much of that album gives me a headache. 

On the other end of the spectrum is smooth jazz, which in my opinion is new age jazz. Not a lot of talent goes into it and much of it is electronically generated. 

That said, there is some really great jazz out there. Some of my favorites are Dave Brubeck Quartet, Bill Evans, Charlie Byrd, Chick Corea (his new trio), Vince Guaraldi (Charlie Brown!), Joe Pass and Esbjörn Svensson Trio.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2007)

Mark Harwood said:


> The Ken Colyer Trust helps to keep alive the memory and spirit of Mr. Colyer's music. He played trumpet and cornet, and his bands produced a British version of New Orleans jazz. Please don't call it Trad! He was prominent in the Jazz revival years, particularly the 1950s, and continued to play and to develop his playing into the 1980s.
> The Trust publishes a quarterly newsletter, and I write the Sales Table News, listing CD titles newly available through the Trust.
> Ken Colyer had many detractors, and any classical horn player is likely to leave the room on hearing his tone, but the magic in his playing, his subtle way of developing melody and rhythm, and the bluesy feel he had, drew to him a following that some see as almost fanatical.
> Website address: www.kencolyertrust.org
> There is a message board there.


*Mark*, as well as Ken Collier, there was also Chris Barber, Kenny Ball, Acker Bilk, Terry Lightfoot, Mick Mulligan, and to go a little into the Big Bands, Ted Heath and Johnny Dankworth, this is now bringing back memories of a misspent youth, so you can guess my vintage, but it was the best of Brit Jazz, After these bands Brit Music went down hill IMHO [about the latter 60s] and pop took a more dominant roll with artists that I wont mention, but it was a great time in Jazz.


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Hello Andante.
Yes, it does seem that the 1950s were a golden era in British jazz. Ken Colyer was unusual in that he didn't alter his style or go mainstream, he just improved.
Chris Barber's early band parted from Ken Colyer and took on a fine replacement, but it was never the same, for me, without Mr. C's peculiar genius.
I'm inclined to agree with those who can't get along with some famous saxophonists, but I'll save that extended rant for another time and place.

By the way, the Edit function has expired on my previous post, so I invite the site moderators to remove my illicit reference to the Ken Colyer web site. Apologies and thanks.


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## orquesta tipica (Jan 17, 2007)

Why is it nobody ever mentions 1920s jazz? And I'm not speaking of Gershwin, either. Try a young Louis Armstrong or Bix Beiderbecke. Listen to Armstrong's "Hot Fives and Sevens" before being so dismissive of jazz.

I wasn't always crazy about jazz--that was my dad's domain. I listened to classical music all the time, and my dad wanted for the longest time for me to like jazz, but I resisted in part because the stuff he listened to sounded all the same, like some complaints I've read here.

But I like going on trips, and I've gone with him to a few jazz festivals, and this one time I was sitting in the back of an unairconditioned hotel ballroom in the heat of a July month in Davenport, as uncomfortable as I could be, and then Ken Peplowski showed up, and sometime in the middle of the piece he was playing I became awestruck. It was an epiphany I cannot put into words, but I just knew right at that moment that there was something to jazz afterall. Alas, my father didn't like this brand of jazz as much as what he normally listens to...which might explain something. Maybe he has bad taste. I found the good jazz. And such moments may be rare, to find good jazz, but for me it's like sifting through the shelves of an antique store. I may not find anything of value, but if I do, then the search would have been worthwhile.


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## Edward Elgar (Mar 22, 2006)

Yes, there is something to jazz in the sense that every jazz peice has its different emotions and ways of handling the music and structure. Maybe the emotions concerned with jazz are so different from those concerned with classical music, that we find the transition harder than most people. I believe it's possible to enjoy all types of music that is performed/recorded with a professional and exited outlook on music in general.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2007)

Ed, I found that in classical, unless you are a top soloist, that you have to concentrate so hard to get it all right you don’t have the luxury of getting right into the music until you have it memorised perfectly, where as in jazz you get into the feeling first and the music just follows, it is different music. Improvised, players try different things when they want to and the other musicians work in and around each other.


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## tzadik (May 8, 2007)

I like jazz quite a lot actually... I think however, you need to listen to jazz with different 'ears' than to classical. Classical music is all about perfection, the pieces are practiced and practiced with the intent to reach some platonic ideal of how a certain piece should sound. Jazz is much rougher, much more music of the moment. Much of the improvisation is a search for that one moment of perfection. It's sad but true, some musicians don't come any further than the search itself, but when jazz works, it can be awesome. Try Charlie Mingus' album blues and roots or Miles Davis - kind of blue for instance.


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## Guest (May 14, 2007)

I will bet my last dollar that Mozart, Beethoven, Bach etc etc, would have played jazz had it been around, they were great at improvisation.


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## zlya (Apr 9, 2007)

Jazz died when Charlie Parker blew his first note. This modern blowing, this defiling of those glorious instruments, the saxophone, piano, trumpet, double bass, this is NOT Jazz, it is, at best, a performance art based around noise.

Go back, my fellow music lovers, go back to the 30s, the 20s, the teens and beyond, go back to the very edge of the era of recording when country blues met marching bands, when voodoo drumming met French dances and piano ragtime met high opera. That, my friends, THAT was jazz.


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Some recommendations.

King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band: "The Complete Set" Retrieval RTR 79007 2 discs.
This may be the pinnacle of recorded jazz in the classic, collective improvisation style. It dates from 1923.

Louis Armstrong: Hot Fives and Sevens JSPCD 312-5 4 discs
Two discs of the Fives and Sevens genius, then the transition to accompanied-soloist jazz before it became too tiresome.

Vintage Cy Laurie Lake LACD242
British 1950s revivalist jazz at its most joyful and concise.

Panama Jazz Kings: Sweet Like This Raymer RSCD843
Recorded live in 2005, showing that the spirit of real jazz is alive.

The Merseysippi Jazz Band, founded in 1949, still performs in the old way.
I'd be more than happy to discuss Ken Colyer and Crane River Jazz Band recordings offline.


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## Guest (May 15, 2007)

Mark Harwood said:


> Some recommendations.*etc etc*
> I'd be more than happy to discuss Ken Colyer and Crane River Jazz Band recordings offline.


I agree there are a lot of good sounds even to day, but why discuss off line Mark??


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Andante said:


> I agree there are a lot of good sounds even to day, but why discuss off line Mark??


Hello Andante. I'll discuss Ken Colyer any time, any place, but don't wish to burden the jazz section of a classical site with my obsession! By all means, let's discuss jazz here, but I doubt that many people wish to follow a Ken Colyer thread. On the other hand, I'm open to suggestions.


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## Guest (May 21, 2007)

Mark, I don’t have a huge jazz collection just a mixed lot of CD and Vinal, I was sure that I would have a Ken Colyer vinal, but was very surprised to find that I had nothing, which puzzled me because I do know the name, have you a link that we could listen to, and why not do a brief history of the man, if some don’t like it there is plenty of other posts to go to, why not see where it leads?


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Thank you, Andante. I'd like to post an account of Ken Colyer's career along with a personal musical appreciation, so I'll do so soon enough. Meanwhile, there's a link that I posted elsewhere; after posting it I remembered that doing so is against a rule of this site, and I invited the moderators to remove it. As they didn't do so, I assume it's an OK link so here it is:
www.kencolyertrust.org


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## Guest (May 21, 2007)

Thanks, Mark I am sure they won't mind. I found the link that you have given, about an hour after making my post, I should have tried harder fist time, it is a very good site and I shall explore it with interest. Andante


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## Drew93 (Jun 1, 2009)

zlya said:


> Jazz died when Charlie Parker blew his first note. This modern blowing, this defiling of those glorious instruments, the saxophone, piano, trumpet, double bass, this is NOT Jazz, it is, at best, a performance art based around noise.
> 
> Go back, my fellow music lovers, go back to the 30s, the 20s, the teens and beyond, go back to the very edge of the era of recording when country blues met marching bands, when voodoo drumming met French dances and piano ragtime met high opera. That, my friends, THAT was jazz.


I'm glad I'm not alone in this sentiment, Zyla, I started on the Alto saxophone about 2 years ago and, whilst looking for inspiration, I stumbled upon the aberration known as Bebop. Thankfully I found proper jazz as well, people like Acker Bilk (with his Paramount Jazz Band), Ken Colyer, Chris Barber, Satchmo, Bix Beiderbecke etc. My favourite form of music at the moment (and it's unlikely to change anytime soon) is the original 1890-1920s jazz e.g. Jelly Roll Morton, King Oliver, Bunk Johnson and the like.


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

IMO, the best jazz of all times was Duke Ellington's


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2009)

Taneyev said:


> IMO, the best jazz of all times was Duke Ellington's


That era was certainly just about the best also what came out of Dizzy Gillespie band such as MJQ was a gift to us.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> That era was certainly just about the best also what came out of Dizzy Gillespie band such as MJQ was a gift to us.


Have you heard the Prestige Jazz Quartet, Andante? They were the "alternative" to the Modern Jazz Quartet. In my opinion, their music had more drive and was much more adventurous than the MJQ. Too bad they didn't record more together.

Prestige Jazz Quartet -

Teddy Charles - vibraphone
Mal Waldron - piano
Addison Farmer - bass
Jerry Segal - drums

They only recorded one album for the Prestige label. It's been out-of-print for many years now. I was able to scrape up a copy of it a few years ago for about $5:










As you may or may not know, Concord Records owns the rights to all of those small jazz labels like Prestige, Contemporary, Milestone, Riverside, Fantasy, etc. It's interesting how they let things go out-of-print. OJC, also owned by Concord, had a "Limited Edition" series and they really were limited!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

zlya said:


> Jazz died when Charlie Parker blew his first note. This modern blowing, this defiling of those glorious instruments, the saxophone, piano, trumpet, double bass, this is NOT Jazz, it is, at best, a performance art based around noise.
> 
> Go back, my fellow music lovers, go back to the 30s, the 20s, the teens and beyond, go back to the very edge of the era of recording when country blues met marching bands, when voodoo drumming met French dances and piano ragtime met high opera. That, my friends, THAT was jazz.


I'm happy to disagree with most of your comments. 

For me, jazz BEGAN when Parker blew his first note. Before Parker and Dizzy, there wasn't much interesting music happening in jazz in my opinion. When Parker got up onstage and started blowing everything changed. This is where jazz became a musician's music. It wasn't about getting up and dancing, it became about challenging the very conceptions of what jazz was at that time. Of course this music resulted in bebop and it's many stylistic cousins: hard-bop, cool jazz, modal jazz, etc. These were all related to the very basic principles of bebop, which were rapid tempo and key changes, swung 4/4 rhythms (many drummers experimenting with different time signatures in the process like Elvin Jones and Joe Morello), and complex chord changes. What remained intact was the penchant for the blues and the overall energy of swing music. This music challenged even the best soloists. Jazz musicians now had to think of different ways of playing and a lot of this lead to much experimentation.

This, my friends, this is jazz.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2009)

The 20s and 30s were a great period and I do agree that this was the start of Jazz as serious music at least in the states the rest of the world had to wait a bit longer.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> The 20s and 30s were a great period and I do agree that this was the start of Jazz as serious music at least in the states the rest of the world had to wait a bit longer.


Like I said, when Parker blew his saxophone it was all over, jazz music really took off from this point forward.

By the way, have you checked out that Prestige Jazz Quartet recording yet? They were so much better than the MJQ who were too conservative for my tastes.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2009)

No I have not checked them out yet but I will, the MJQ were the nearest thing in Jazz to approach the classical Qt, they may have been what you call conservative but they had and still do have a dedicated following even from classical musicians


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> No I have not checked them out yet but I will, the MJQ were the nearest thing in Jazz to approach the classical Qt, they may have been what you call conservative but they had and still do have a dedicated following even from classical musicians


When I listen to jazz, I want to hear jazz, not classical. This is probably why I'm not to keen on the MJQ. They're a little too delicate for me.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> When I listen to jazz, I want to hear jazz, not classical. This is probably why I'm not to keen on the MJQ. They're a little too delicate for me.


Have you heard any of John Lewis' solo recordings, MI? They're very tight and minimalistic. I think that Lewis got better after leaving the MJQ- he played less notes but more interesting notes. And he played with this great, very delicate swing, just barely outlining the broken triplets instead of emphasizing them.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> Have you heard any of John Lewis' solo recordings, MI? They're very tight and minimalistic. I think that Lewis got better after leaving the MJQ- he played less notes but more interesting notes. And he played with this great, very delicate swing, just barely outlining the broken triplets instead of emphasizing them.


I'm quite familiar with John Lewis' work with inside and outside of MJQ, but he's not one my favorites give me Thelonious Monk, Bill Evans, Red Garland, Sonny Clark, Barry Harris, Tommy Flanagan, Bobby Timmons, Wynton Kelly, etc. any day of the week.


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## Drew97 (May 22, 2009)

If listening to some jazz makes you feel empty, try something like Champs Elysee by Dutch Swing College band. I personally love trad jazz, but modern jazz is just not good.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Drew97 said:


> If listening to some jazz makes you feel empty, try something like Champs Elysee by Dutch Swing College band. I personally love trad jazz, but modern jazz is just not good.


 Um...no. Jazz started, for me, when Parker blew his horn and then everything that's wonderful about this music came to fruition.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2009)

Drew97 said:


> If listening to some jazz makes you feel empty, try something like Champs Elysee by Dutch Swing College band. I personally love trad jazz, but modern jazz is just not good.


The Dutch Swing College are an excellent band. I picked up a 12" Vinyl in a second hand shop for $2, not expecting much audio wise but when played it had no pops or crackles, just like new, my very first experiance of playing jazz was with a trad band it was a wonderful 3 yrs and I learned a lot and had a fun


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Drew97 said:


> If listening to some jazz makes you feel empty, try something like Champs Elysee by Dutch Swing College band. I personally love trad jazz, but modern jazz is just not good.


I want to check that out. I like trad jazz and generally dislike modern jazz (however, modern jazz is very good music), so I'll give the Dutch Swing College Band a try.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> I want to check that out. I like trad jazz and generally dislike modern jazz (however, modern jazz is very good music), so I'll give the Dutch Swing College Band a try.


You can't beat the swing of Blakey, Miles, Coltrane, Monk, and Evans. Nobody can touch these cats in the jazz world.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> You can't beat the swing of Blakey, Miles, Coltrane, Monk, and Evans. Nobody can touch these cats in the jazz world.


I certainly like Monk and (to a lesser extent) Evans, but I easily prefer Armstrong and Ellington. There's something about the conciseness of trad jazz- the ability of an Armstrong to say so much in a forty second solo- that appeals to me immensely. And I just haven't gotten hooked on either Coltrane or Miles Davis (although I can appreciate that both are terrific musicians).


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> I certainly like Monk and (to a lesser extent) Evans, but I easily prefer Armstrong and Ellington. There's something about the conciseness of trad jazz- the ability of an Armstrong to say so much in a forty second solo- that appeals to me immensely. And I just haven't gotten hooked on either Coltrane or Miles Davis (although I can appreciate that both are terrific musicians).


Well I love the Duke, no question about it, but I find that since jazz is an improviser's music it's nice to hear a musician improvise longer. I was never a big Armstrong fan, in fact, I'm pretty repulsed most of the time I hear him. Sorry, but I can't help it, I just don't understand his popularity.

As I have said many times, for me, jazz began when Parker blew his saxophone and it ended in 1964, so from about 1948 to 1964 is my favorite period in jazz.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Mirror Image said:


> I was never a big Armstrong fan, in fact, I'm pretty repulsed most of the time I hear him.


It could be the strong New Orleans element in his music- from what I can tell of your classical and jazz tastes, the NOLA combo of ragtime, zydeco, cajun, and blues shuffles is probably not your thing. For me, well, the music of New Orelans was my first musical passion and remains one of my primary ones.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> It could be the strong New Orleans element in his music- from what I can tell of your classical and jazz tastes, the NOLA combo of ragtime, zydeco, cajun, and blues shuffles is probably not your thing. For me, well, the music of New Orelans was my first musical passion and remains one of my primary ones.


You're right, I'm just not into that New Orleans sound. It's just doesn't do much for me.

I'm more into bebop, hard-bop, big band, and cool jazz (aka West Coast Jazz).


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Mirror Image said:


> Well I love the Duke, no question about it, but I find that since jazz is an improviser's music it's nice to hear a musician improvise longer.


Yes, but when dixieland and swing were at their peak the lp wasn't yet invented, and whatever they played had to fit on a 78rpm record.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Yes, but when dixieland and swing were at their peak the lp wasn't yet invented, and whatever they played had to fit on a 78rpm record.


Well, that's true, but I don't listen to swing or dixieland, so I'm not too worried about it.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Yes, but when dixieland and swing were at their peak the lp wasn't yet invented, and whatever they played had to fit on a 78rpm record.


The same applied to classical hence 12+ 78s for 1 sym


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

I have just got hold of *"Three Windows" *with the *MJQ*, with the New York Chamber Sym, I could not get any further than the first two tracks it was so weak and bland, neither one thing or the other. Why did they do it ???? Jazz is Jazz, classics is classics and the two do not go well together IMO, It will make a xmas pressy for someone.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> I have just got hold of *"Three Windows" *with the *MJQ*, with the New York Chamber Sym, I could not get any further than the first two tracks it was so weak and bland, neither one thing or the other. Why did they do it ???? Jazz is Jazz, classics is classics and the two do not go well together IMO, It will make a xmas pressy for someone.


That's what I've been saying all along, Andante. MJQ are perhaps okay for some, but I think the whole "Third Stream" movement isn't that great.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

The MJQ are great as a quartet but not with any orchestra, the point being why mix the two?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andante said:


> The MJQ are great as a quartet but not with any orchestra, the point being why mix the two?


I'm not sure. I have that recording, but I don't listen to it. It's kind of a collector's item, so that's why I own it.

The MJQ are a "Third Stream" group regardless if it's just a quartet or they're playing with an orchestra. I don't ever listen to them, because they're not the essence of jazz to me. I'm not a big John Lewis fan anyway. I do, however, enjoy Connie Kay, Milt Jackson, Percy Heath, and Kenny Clarke (when he was in the band).

I much prefer their ugly cousins the PJQ (Prestige Jazz Quartet). They definitely swing a lot harder and I like Mal Waldron's playing a lot more than John Lewis'.


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## Marco01 (Apr 18, 2009)

Wow, if so many people think jazz is boring, what must they think of the blues?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I recently listened to two less-known Coltrane's albums: Coltrane plays the Blues and First Meditations. Big disappointment.


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## PostMinimalist (May 14, 2008)

Anyone here like Basie or Thad Jones/Mel Lewis big bands in the late 60's and seventies?
I alwas forget this stuff but as soon as I put on a record like 'The Atomic Mr. Basie' or 'It Only Happens Every Time' I almost feel like this is the _only_ music I want to hear. 
FC


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Marco01 said:


> Wow, if so many people think jazz is boring, what must they think of the blues?


What are you even talking about? Who said jazz was boring?


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## danae (Jan 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> What are you even talking about? Who said jazz was boring?


Read the first 2 pages of the thread.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

danae said:


> Read the first 2 pages of the thread.


I would rather not.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Marco01 said:


> Wow, if so many people think jazz is boring, what must they think of the blues?


Level of musical "complexity" does not always correlate with interest. Jazz and blues are just two different musical languages- and, as such, have no direct relation to the level of expressiveness. English is arguably more complex than French, but that doesn't imply that English poems are more interesting than French poems.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> I'm not sure. I have that recording, but I don't listen to it. It's kind of a collector's item, so that's why I own it.


 I got it with a 8 CD set and I have still to burn 6 of the others



> I much prefer their ugly cousins the PJQ (Prestige Jazz Quartet). They definitely swing a lot harder and I like Mal Waldron's playing a lot more than John Lewis'.


I have not found any of their CDs as yet but will certainly give them a listen  one thing that I always admired was Milt Jackson's natural swing he could really punch a number along.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

This is a fantastic 6 minutes spoken by a genius.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Do any other Bill Evans fans think that when he defines Jazz as '1 minute of music, written in 1 minute', he's being contradictory in 'Conversations With Myself'?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

ah ****, MI's been banned - nobody to reply to this then..


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

WTF is this banning policy on this forum? Have all these people who have been banned said something offensive? Way too much emphasis on "not offending people" in that case, IMO...


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

yeah, agreed there bro. It's like a totalitarian state.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Great interview. I remember Keith Jarrett discussing spontaneity in jazz and classical... especially Baroque... music in a similar manner... I believe in response to his live Paris recording which builds heavily upon the Baroque. Its also fascinating to note how the spontaneous nature of jazz went hand-in-hand with some of the spontaneous aspects of American painting (especially Abstract Expressionism) of the same era. One might also note that just as Evans was well aware of the precedents for spontaneous creation in earlier classical music, many of the Abstract Expressionists were aware of similar precedents... especially in the work of Chinese and Japanese Zen paintings.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Anyone here like Basie or Thad Jones/Mel Lewis big bands in the late 60's and seventies?

Definitely the Atomic Basie... but I like earlier big bands as well: Monk's, Gillespies', Goodman live at Carnegie Hall and certainly Ellington. My preference, however, leans toward the bop era: Monk, Tristano, Charlie Parker, Miles, Coletrane, etc...


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Dim7 said:


> WTF is this banning policy on this forum? Have all these people who have been banned said something offensive? Way too much emphasis on "not offending people" in that case, IMO...


Kind Sir, please allow this, my humble expression of disapprobation regarding the burden of your most welcome missive.
Your obedient servant,
MH


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## Mark Harwood (Mar 5, 2007)

Bach said:


> yeah, agreed there bro. It's like a totalitarian state.


No it isn't.


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## Zeniyama (Jul 20, 2009)

I like Jazz in general, but my favourite styles are free-form and bebop. Thelonius Monk and Ornette Coleman are two of my favourite musicians/composers.

I don't really have much to contribute right this second, and I'm having a bit of trouble concentrating. I'll try to post something more substantial tomorrow after a good night's rest, a day spent at school, and an afternoon spent marching.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Zeniyama said:


> bebop. Thelonius Monk


Monk is my main man. One of my favorite jazz musicians of all time:










Three more of my favorites are:

Bill Evans









Miles Davis









Bill Frisell









Here is a list of my favorite jazz musicians:

Thelonious Monk, Ben Webster, Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, Stan Getz, Miles Davis, Bill Frisell, Tomasz Stanko, Dizzy Gillespie, Tomasz Stanko, Sonny Clark, Enrico Rava, Paul Desmond, Duke Ellington, Paul Motian, John Coltrane, Coleman Hawkins, Zoot Sims, Clark Terry, McCoy Tyner, Bobby Hutcherson, Herbie Hancock, Sonny Rolllins, Dave Holland, Max Roach, Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Nicholas Payton, Art Blakey, Cannonball Adderley, Modern Jazz Quartet, Dave Brubeck, Art Pepper, Blue Mitchell, Stefon Harris, Ron Carter, Benny Carter, Joe Locke, Paolo Fresu, Hampton Hawes, Ed Bickert, Rob McConnell, David "Fathead" Newman, Bud Powell, Eliane Elias, John Abercrombie, Chet Baker, Gigi Gryce, Nguyen Le, Horace Silver, Marian McPartland, Tommy Flanagan, Art Farmer, Benny Golson, Michel Petrucciani, Maria Schneider, Bob Brookmeyer, Harold Land, Wes Montgomery, Shirley Horn, Diana Krall, Cassandra Wilson, Fred Hersch, Steve Nelson, Woody Herman, Jim Hall, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Jan Garbarek, Pat Metheny, Shelly Manne, Kenny Dorham, Jimmy Heath, Johnny Griffin, Stan Kenton, Amina Figarova, Charles Lloyd, Frank Wess, John Hicks, Woody Shaw, Kenny Wheeler, Renee Rosnes, this list could go on forever...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I've listened to a lot of Evans lately. He's my favourite jazz pianists since I remember, but somehow I forgot about him for some time. "New Jazz Conceptions" - awesome album.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Aramis said:


> I've listened to a lot of Evans lately. He's my favourite jazz pianists since I remember, but somehow I forgot about him for some time. "New Jazz Conceptions" - awesome album.


Bill Evans is one of my early piano heroes. "New Jazz Conceptions" was his debut recording as leader and it's a decent one. It isn't one of my favorites. I feel he really hadn't found his voice until Paul Motian and Scott LaFaro joined and formed the trio, which remains one of the best piano trios of all-time.

My favorite Bill Evans are the following:




























This recording is one of the last albums he recorded and it has beautiful sadness throughout:


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