# Beethoven and borrowings



## scottlens (Mar 4, 2007)

Hi guys,

I really enjoy listening to Beethoven's 'Pathetique' sonata and I began to explore his other works, the one in question being the 'Choral' symphony. Now when the 3rd movement started, the first few bars of the theme sounded so much like the 2nd movement of the 'Pathetique', so I'm wondering if this was a deliberate quotation by Beethoven or just a remarkable coincidence.

I know Beethoven used his "Eroica" theme a few times, so I was wondering.

Any ideas?


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm not sure if it's a deliberate quotation or not- but composers do often use motifs from previous pieces, not necessarily to directly quote something, but because the motif is something symbolic to them and belongs in not just one of their pieces. 

Interestingly enough though, the fragment of the melody you're referring to that first popped up in the "Pathetique" is (in the pathetique) preceded by a quote from Mozart's 14th piano sonata.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Great call, scottlens. That similarity has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Somewhere I have a notebook where I wrote down all the slow movement themes of LvB's that include that underlying chord progression (I - V43 - I6 - V6 - I) -- I had found at least 4 more, in sonatas and his wind quintet IIRC. 

It's more obvious between the Pathetique and Ninth because the outer-voice counterpoint is essentially the same as well, and the melodic/harmonic similarities continue into the second subphrase as well.

If you're *really* looking for self-borrowings in Beethoven, I suggest you listen to his Choral Fantasia (specifically the latter portion). It may put a whole new spin on the 9th's fourth movement, just sayin'.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I don't know - they have like three notes in common. I'm not sure I would think of it as a quotation so much as a musical gesture typical of Beethoven. Just my take on it.


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## djmomo17 (Aug 12, 2010)

Falstaft said:


> If you're *really* looking for self-borrowings in Beethoven, I suggest you listen to his Choral Fantasia (specifically the latter portion). It may put a whole new spin on the 9th's fourth movement, just sayin'.


I noticed some similirities to the Lieder "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten - Gegenlieb", WoO.118 (1795) - in fact I wrote a post about it on my Beethoven blog:

http://lvbandmore.blogspot.com/2010/07/seufzer-eines-ungeliebten-gegenlieb.html


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

djmomo17 said:


> I noticed some similirities to the Lieder "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten - Gegenlieb", WoO.118 (1795) - in fact I wrote a post about it on my Beethoven blog:[/URL]


Well I'll be! Beethoven, that hack Cool blog too!


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