# Opinions: Anna Netrebko?



## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm (relatively) new to opera. I've worked in musical theatre for years so obviously different.

I see Ms. Netrebko featured in many Met productions and I'd like to hear what people like about her. Singing technique? Acting? Diction? Just saw her in Met HD Trovatore and wasn't wowed. Saw her last year in Iolanta and enjoyed much more... perhaps because it's her native language?

I don't want to give my relatively uninformed opinion. I'd like to get some education as to why she is considered at the top of the field.

TIA.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

She's got the looks and the charisma and sometimes the voice. She can be spectacular but is inconsistent. I've not seen her live as she's cancelled the times I've booked to see an opera she was in. On DVD, I'm not totally convinced.

I think her popularity has more to do with her looks than her voice.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

sospiro said:


> She's got the looks and the charisma and sometimes the voice. She can be spectacular but is inconsistent. I've not seen her live as she's cancelled the times I've booked to see an opera she was in. On DVD, I'm not totally convinced.
> 
> I think her popularity has more to do with her looks than her voice.


Good call!:tiphat:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

sospiro said:


> I think her popularity has more to do with her looks than her voice.


This is the whole point plus _she's_ thinking she is great already :cheers:


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

suntower said:


> I'd like to get some education as to why she is considered at the top of the field.


because at least up until 2010 she was capable of singing loud enough all the way through a performance, which is in fact a big deal, for the conductor wouldn't have to muffle the orchestra in this case, unlike most of other singers these days, with whom the orchestra would end up thin and dim by the finale or even from the start onwards. Netrebko's participation in DVD opera productions was a guarantee that the orchestra will sound loud and rich and that the rest of the troupe have strong voices too.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

sospiro said:


> I think her popularity has more to do with her looks than her voice.


her looks are gone since 2005; she doesn't get younger, does she?

so it is her voice, its timber and her artistic experience that keep her going in opera world.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Pugg said:


> This is the whole point plus _she's_ thinking she is great already :cheers:


you really think she or anyone else there are that crazy to think themselves great after the world has already seen such sopranos as Callas, Caballe, etc?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> her looks are gone since 2005; she doesn't get younger, does she?


That can be said of most of us! :lol:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> you really think she or anyone else there are that crazy to think themselves great after the world has already seen such sopranos as Callas, Caballe, etc?


Was Usane Bolt insane to think he could run faster than Jesse Owens?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

I sometimes like Anna Netrebko's hair, make-up, and dresses.

Beyond that, propriety forbids me from saying.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Well I like her!

She's very pretty (yes, still), and generally she sings and acts well. Surely today's opera world is better for having her in it.

The '_she ain't no Callas/Sutherland/Caballe_' line of conversation seems as absurd as anyone saying she's the greatest ever. The critics of the main opera magazines seem able to give her decent (sometimes glowing) reviews, whilst being able to criticize when warranted.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The voice itself is quite beautiful, and she can be effective in the right repertoire. I just wish she wouldn't sing _bel canto_, for which she clearly hasn't the technique. She's about to sing *Norma* at the Met. I have no idea how she will get through it, but I have no doubt she will be glossing over most of the role's difficulties. Maybe that's the best we can expect these days.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> The voice itself is quite beautiful, and she can be effective in the right repertoire. I just wish she wouldn't sing _bel canto_, for which she clearly hasn't the technique. She's about to sing *Norma* at the Met. I have no idea how she will get through it, but I have no doubt she will be glossing over most of the role's difficulties. Maybe that's the best we can expect these days.


She does have a beautiful voice.

I like her Natasha from _War and Peace_ on that Live at the Met cd I posted above.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

I've only listened to her in a couple of things--her Traviata recording and her Met broadcast performance in MacBeth, where I thought she was quite good. I don't think she has the greatest instrument of all time, but it's a good instrument--rich and velvety--and her vocal and stage performance was gripping and dramatically involved. I wouldn't rush out to get everything she recorded but I liked what I heard.

She gets waves of online hate though, I'm not really sure why. I guess it's because of the hotness? I gather she's not very good in her bel canto roles, which I can certainly believe from what I hear of her coloratura technique in what I've listened to. The hate seems disproportionate to just thinking someone isn't that good for a part of their chosen repertoire, though.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

A good singer, one of the best of recent sopranos but not history-making. Her voice is smooth, even, and seems pretty consistent (though I haven't heard her lately). I don't dislike her sound but find it unvaried. Her musical interpretation is sometimes fairly vivid and other times fairly dull (if "sometimes" is one word how come "othertimes" isn't?), and she seems at her best in her own language, probably like most singers. I've enjoyed her at times but won't care if I don't hear her again. I'm curious about her upcoming Norma, though. I'll probably be sorry, but I'm always ready to be pleasantly surprised.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for the opinions.

As I wrote, I've only seen her in two thing... most recently the Met Trovatore. And again, I'm coming from a musical theatre background so here is my unwashed opinion... which probably applies to most opera, I guess.

1. She was a -total- ham as Leonora. Her acting was a caricature; all the stereotypes of bad opera singer acting. It bothers me a LOT that 'opera' seems to have a totally different set of standards for 'realistic acting'. Since I've been watching opera (10 years) it -seems- like there has been a sea change... a lot of singers are now -great- actors (lady playing Azucena (sic?) was fantastic) but Anna was eye rolling like a silent film star.

2. Is it just me or does she have a Russian accent singing in Italian? Sincere question. She just seemed to -revel- in the low notes--making -every- note as 'dark' and 'husky' as possible and accenting all the consonants. I hate to say it, but it just wasn't part of the character.

3. I know this is probably radioactive, but I don't get all the 'she's hot' stuff. She's fat. She's like 40 years old, fat and playing a young woman, right? This is the valley I have -never- been able to cross in moving over to opera. It just drives me NUTS to hear opera lovers completely suspend disbelief in this regard. I would MUCH rather see an actress with a (slightly) less great voice who LOOKS AND ACTS the part, than a supreme 'instrument' who is 20 years too old and weighs in at 200+. Maybe Anna was 'hot' 10 years ago and people still see her that way but if she's what passes for 'hot' in the opera world? Wow.

Just to capture my ignorance... her co-star 'Yonghoon Lee' was IMO just great. I could hear him fluff a few notes (his pitch was definitely out at times). But his acting, his physical presence, the clarity of his diction and the subtlety of his singing made me -believe- in his performance. They did an interview with him at intermission and it was ASTOUNDING how he went from a thick Korean accent to such graceful Italian.

OK... why is this POV all wrong? It's a sincere question because clearly the opera world is still more about a certain type of 'voice' than looks/acting/drama. Not trying to start a fist fight. Just trying to understand.

TIA.,


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

suntower said:


> Thanks for the opinions.
> 
> As I wrote, I've only seen her in two thing... most recently the Met Trovatore. And again, I'm coming from a musical theatre background so here is my unwashed opinion... which probably applies to most opera, I guess.
> 
> ...


Opera is a hybrid art form and there are always debates about which elements are most important. It's just so difficult to bring everything together - music, vocal brilliance, acting, staging - at an optimal level. If compromises are nearly always necessary, everyone has a different area and level of tolerance for the suboptimal. Personally, as a musician and former singer, I have little tolerance for mediocre singing and conducting. If the music doesn't move me I don't much care what's going on onstage. Opera is, by and large, tremendously difficult to sing well. If you have a great Norma or Isolde who's 30 pounds overweight, you hire her. There just aren't many great singers around - not any more, at any rate.

That said, the modern epidemic of obesity does seem to affect the opera world as much as it does the rest of us. The stereotype of the fat prima donna is not supported historically as much as we might think. Most of the great singers of the past were not seriously overweight; the Caballes were the exception. As far as acting is concerned, it is no doubt better in general than it once was, but fine acting has always been appreciated and numerous singers of past generations were capable of it.

The bottom line for me is that opera is _musical_ drama, and that music is the most critical medium through which its message is communicated. I'll put up with less than perfect looks and acting for really great singing - but in the absence of that, strong visual values do become more important. Too often we get neither.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> I've only listened to her in a couple of things--her Traviata recording and her Met broadcast performance in MacBeth, where I thought she was quite good. I don't think she has the greatest instrument of all time, but it's a good instrument--rich and velvety--and her vocal and stage performance was gripping and dramatically involved. I wouldn't rush out to get everything she recorded but I liked what I heard.
> 
> *She gets waves of online hate though, I'm not really sure why. I guess it's because of the hotness? *I gather she's not very good in her bel canto roles, which I can certainly believe from what I hear of her coloratura technique in what I've listened to. The hate seems disproportionate to just thinking someone isn't that good for a part of their chosen repertoire, though.


The point is that all sopranos would have got waves of online hate if they had lived today. In the recording of Andre Chenier with Callas, you can actually hear the Tebaldi / Callas factions having a fist fight in the theatre when the performance was going on. It's nothing new. Just why we must be so filled with hate instead of being thankful for such voices (albeit not perfect) is quite beyond me. I like Tebaldi, Callas, Freni et al. Now Nebretko, Georghiu et al. Like em all! What's not to like? Just why this mob mentality must invade the realm of opera is quite beyond me. But then perhaps it's always been there.
As to acting ability, you will find many fine singers are not great actors. Just think of Sutherland, Caballe, etc! Sutherland actually said that if you want to see good acting go to the theatre not the opera house!


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for your reasoned/moderate opinion.

From what I've read, it seems to me that opera is -often- a 'noble failure'. As you say, it's so hard to get all the elements together.

The audience I saw Ms. Netrebko with went APE for her... like a rock star. They clearly weren't seeing 'the opera' so much as the singers. (Maybe a good idea... that plot. Oy!)

I just wondered what it was about -her- that knocked people out. Maybe it really is 'a pretty face'. I was wondering more about her -technique- and acting... what people in the know like about her beyond that cult of personality.



Woodduck said:


> Opera is a hybrid art form and there are always debates about which elements are most important. It's just so difficult to bring everything together - music, vocal brilliance, acting, staging - at an optimal level. If compromises are nearly always necessary, everyone has a different area and level of tolerance for the suboptimal. Personally, as a musician and former singer, I have little tolerance for mediocre singing and conducting. If the music doesn't move me I don't much care what's going on onstage. Opera is, by and large, tremendously difficult to sing well. If you have a great Norma or Isolde who's 30 pounds overweight, you hire her. There just aren't many great singers around - not any more, at any rate.
> 
> That said, the modern epidemic of obesity does seem to affect the opera world as much as it does the rest of us. The stereotype of the fat prima donna is not supported historically as much as we might think. Most of the great singers of the past were not seriously overweight; the Caballes were the exception. As far as acting is concerned, it is no doubt better in general than it once was, but fine acting has always been appreciated and numerous singers of past generations were capable of it.
> 
> The bottom line for me is that opera is _musical_ drama, and that music is the most critical medium through which its message is communicated. I'll put up with less than perfect looks and acting for really great singing - but in the absence of that, strong visual values do become more important. Too often we get neither.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Opera is a hybrid art form and there are always debates about which elements are most important. It's just so difficult to bring everything together - music, vocal brilliance, acting, staging - at an optimal level. If compromises are nearly always necessary, everyone has a different area and level of tolerance for the suboptimal. Personally, as a musician and former singer, I have little tolerance for mediocre singing and conducting. If the music doesn't move me I don't much care what's going on onstage. Opera is, by and large, tremendously difficult to sing well. If you have a great Norma or Isolde who's 30 pounds overweight, you hire her. There just aren't many great singers around - not any more, at any rate.
> 
> That said, the modern epidemic of obesity does seem to affect the opera world as much as it does the rest of us. The stereotype of the fat prima donna is not supported historically as much as we might think. Most of the great singers of the past were not seriously overweight; the Caballes were the exception. As far as acting is concerned, it is no doubt better in general than it once was, but fine acting has always been appreciated and numerous singers of past generations were capable of it.
> 
> The bottom line for me is that opera is _musical_ drama, and that music is the most critical medium through which its message is communicated. I'll put up with less than perfect looks and acting for really great singing - but in the absence of that, strong visual values do become more important. Too often we get neither.


Sustained.

For me winsome good looks are nice- fierce good looks are better- but how often does one see really 'see' this in the operatic world?

I'm listening to music and not to _Harper's Bazaar_. . .

I remember I was at the mall with a friend of mine who's an unbelievably hard-grader on looks. A beautiful, slightly heavy woman passed us. My friend goes to me _sotto voce_, "There's no excuse for obesity"- like his day was ruined. I said, "There's no excuse for being an @@@h#l*."


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The point is that all sopranos would have got waves of online hate if they had lived today. In the recording of Andre Chenier with Callas, you can actually hear the Tebaldi / Callas factions having a fist fight in the theatre when the performance was going on. It's nothing new. Just why we must be so filled with hate instead of being thankful for such voices (albeit not perfect) is quite beyond me. I like Tebaldi, Callas, Freni et al. Now Nebretko, Georghiu et al. Like em all! What's not to like? Just why this mob mentality must invade the realm of opera is quite beyond me. But then perhaps it's always been there.
> As to acting ability, you will find many fine singers are not great actors. Just think of Sutherland, Caballe, etc! Sutherland actually said that if you want to see good acting go to the theatre not the opera house!


That's just the Callas haters showing up to make a show. They always behave like rugby fans.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Was Usane Bolt insane to think he could run faster than Jesse Owens?


no, of course, since he has the training (and doping) the latter didn't have.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The point is that all sopranos would have got waves of online hate if they had lived today. In the recording of Andre Chenier with Callas, you can actually hear the Tebaldi / Callas factions having a fist fight in the theatre when the performance was going on. It's nothing new. Just why we must be so filled with hate instead of being thankful for such voices (albeit not perfect) is quite beyond me. I like Tebaldi, Callas, Freni et al. Now Nebretko, Georghiu et al. Like em all! What's not to like? Just why this mob mentality must invade the realm of opera is quite beyond me. But then perhaps it's always been there.
> As to acting ability, you will find many fine singers are not great actors. Just think of Sutherland, Caballe, etc! Sutherland actually said that if you want to see good acting go to the theatre not the opera house!


Of course Sutherland said that since she couldn't act.

What she could have had the good grace to say (and I like Joannie) is, "If you want to see great acting, go to see Callas."


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

suntower said:


> She was a -total- ham as Leonora. Her acting was a caricature; all the stereotypes of bad opera singer acting.


it isn't her, it is stage directors who force her into that sort of acting.

before she joined the Met, she was a very good actor -


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for the replies.

But what is it about her -voice- that people like? As I wrote, I found her Italian diction pretty unconvincing. (I don't speak Italian but she definitely had a 'Russian' thing going on.) I'm just asking about technique because I didn't hear anything that wowed me -except-... she did seem to have a pretty amazing low end. I mean her low notes were easily as powerful as the top notes. (IMO kinda too powerful, but I may not know what I'm talking about.) Her voice just sounded 'husky'... too big/low for the character.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> no, of course, since he has the training (and doping) the latter didn't have.


Can you prove the doping? What information do you have?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Can you prove the doping? What information do you have?


You took the words out of my mouth (or off my fingers )


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

sharik said:


> it isn't her, it is stage directors who force her into that sort of acting.
> 
> before she joined the Met, she was a very good actor -


I'm not sure this constitutes great acting - a bit hammy for my taste. She looks and sounds lovely though.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Regarding the OP's question about diction, I guess we're used to the fact that most singers in most operas will not be singing in their native language, and therefore cut them some slack; whilst certainly enjoying the times when we hear great diction from a singer in their native language. There can't be many performers in musical theatre who sing in six languages.

By the way The Observer (UK) seemed quite satisfied with the performance mentioned, although not necessarily judging her diction.



Observer Review said:


> Ms. Netrebko, beginning in slightly gooey voice, found her A game for the grueling final act of the role of Leonora, a Spanish noblewoman who falls in love with a Gypsy troubadour. Her high pianissimo notes in "D'amor sull'ali rosee" glinted like moonlight, and her chest tones in the ensuing "Miserere" were like the cries of a wounded beast. Best of all, the soprano performed every note of the usually abbreviated cabaletta "Tu vedrai," all flashing scales, crowned with a radiant high C. Finally, as her character died slowly of self-administered poison, Ms. Netrebko faded out her rich voice to a shimmering filigree.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Can you prove the doping? What information do you have?


all modern athelets are on medication to boost their performance, this began since the 1980s, a well known fact.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

sharik said:


> no, of course, since he has the training (and doping) the latter didn't have.





DavidA said:


> Can you prove the doping? What information do you have?





GregMitchell said:


> You took the words out of my mouth (or off my fingers )





sharik said:


> all modern athelets are on medication to boost their performance, this began since the 1980s, a well known fact.


Wrong thread guys


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

deleted ......................................


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Wrong thread guys


OK I rest my case Annie and delete the previous thread.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

sharik said:


> all modern athelets are on medication to boost their performance, this began since the 1980s, a well known fact.


The most recent IAAF list of athletes currently serving drug suspensions by country:

Russia: 68
Turkey: 44
India: 36
Ukraine: 16
Belarus: 11
U.S.A.: 10

http://www.iaaf.org/download/downlo...n Anti-Doping Rule Violation under IAAF Rules

What this has to do with opera isn't entirely clear to me...


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure this constitutes great acting - a bit hammy for my taste.


that can be said about pretty much every singer then.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

sharik said:


> all modern athelets are on medication to boost their performance, this began since the 1980s, a well known fact.


I'd love to talk about track and field, but what on earth has this got to do with Anna Netrebko? Can we show respect for the thread starter?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

KenOC said:


> The most recent IAAF list of athletes currently serving drug suspensions by country:
> 
> Russia: 68
> Turkey: 44
> ...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Anti-Doping_Agency - controlled by the West, not fairly done.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Don Fatale said:


> I'd love to talk about track and field, but what on earth has this got to do with Anna Netrebko?


well, it wasn't me -



DavidA said:


> Was Usane Bolt insane to think he could run faster than Jesse Owens?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

sharik said:


> that can be said about pretty much every singer then.


Not really. Well certainly not these days. I note that you ignored the second part of my statement in which I stated that she looks and sound lovely in these clips.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

"Ms. Netrebko, beginning in slightly gooey voice, found her A game for the grueling final act of the role of Leonora, a Spanish noblewoman who falls in love with a Gypsy troubadour. Her high pianissimo notes in “D’amor sull’ali rosee” glinted like moonlight, and her chest tones in the ensuing “Miserere” were like the cries of a wounded beast. Best of all, the soprano performed every note of the usually abbreviated cabaletta “Tu vedrai,” all flashing scales, crowned with a radiant high C. Finally, as her character died slowly of self-administered poison, Ms. Netrebko faded out her rich voice to a shimmering filigree."

I'd agree with the details... although not the purple prose (I guess that goes with the opera territory.) Look, it's a ridiculous libretto, OK, fine. That too is 'opera'. And I'm even willing to swallow the concept of dying women singing forte until their last breath. 

But what I object to in Anna's performance is probably what most people -like- about it: people were cheering -her-... not her -character- or the 'play'. IOW: the whole show seemed simply a vehicle for a certain portion of the audience to get off on her voice... and that's where I draw the line. IMO the singer has to be subservient to 'the drama'. Otherwise it isn't 'drama'; it's an Anna show. The other actors to one degree or another were in a play.

I'll confess my bias: I think one reason I tend to prefer more 'modern' operas (Bluebeard, L'Enfant Et Les Sortileges) is not because they're 'modern' but because they're more focused on the -play- and not the -singer-. I guess it's a great divide: lots of people go to hear 'Anna'. The show is (mostly) just her vehicle.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Not really. Well certainly not these days.


especially these days. Netrebko was one of the last singers capable of good acting in opera productions.

modern productions have made today's singers all turn hammy.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Alas, suntower, it's an inevitable product of being very famous and having lots of fans, and yes it can be a little annoying for the more objective members of the audience. But it happens in every genre of music. At rock gigs the crowd goes crazy before the band has even played a note, and annoyingly insists on whooping after recognising the opening notes of any famous song! I understand that 'Dima' got some applause when he came on stage, but this was a special case. Thankfully it's a rarity in opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> Regarding the OP's question about diction, I guess we're used to the fact that most singers in most operas will not be singing in their native language, and therefore cut them some slack; whilst certainly enjoying the times when we hear great diction from a singer in their native language. There can't be many performers in musical theatre who sing in six languages.
> 
> By the way The Observer (UK) seemed quite satisfied with the performance mentioned, although not necessarily judging her diction.


I've never minded singers having less than perfect accents in foreign languages if they can sing them clearly and expressively. Placido Domingo's German bothers some people but not me particularly. When I hear English sung with a slight accent I may even find it charming; maybe we tend to be more charitable when it's our own tongue being exoticised. In fact I'm much more tolerant of what Kirsten Flagstad or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf did to English than of what Joan Sutherland did to any language she gummed up. With those two ladies every vowel and consonant was clear, even if - and perhaps because - they were not natives. Of course there are limits to one's tolerance Franco Corelli and French never saw "i" to "i," or "r" to "r," etc., etc.

Listen to the lovely Mme. Flagstad sing our fair tongue and put the rest of us to shame:


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Yes, the guy playing Count Di Luna dropped character a couple of times... but that was understandable (I guess he's got a brain tumor?) He was so choked up with the audience support he couldn't help it--he tried to get them to stop but they wouldn't and finally he had to acknowledge it to get back to business. That had -zero- to do with 'divo' attitude; that was just being human.



Don Fatale said:


> Alas, suntower, it's an inevitable product of being very famous and having lots of fans, and yes it can be a little annoying for the more objective members of the audience. But it happens in every genre of music. At rock gigs the crowd goes crazy before the band has even played a note, and annoyingly insists on whooping after recognising the opening notes of any famous song! I understand that 'Dima' got some applause when he came on stage, but this was a special case. Thankfully it's a rarity in opera.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

It's not the -accent- so much as the timbre. She had this Volga boatman vibe. I mean her low end was HUUUUUGE. It bugs me because... again... her character is supposed to be this young woman in distress and frankly it wasn't particularly 'feminine'. Certainly didn't blend with Manrico who had a much clearer/simple tone.



Woodduck said:


> I've never minded singers having less than perfect accents in foreign languages if they can sing them clearly and expressively. Placido Domingo's German bothers some people but not me particularly. When I hear English sung with a slight accent I may even find it charming; maybe we tend to be more charitable when it's our own tongue being exoticised. In fact I'm much more tolerant of what Kirsten Flagstad or Elisabeth Schwarzkopf did to English than of what Joan Sutherland did to any language she gummed up. With those two ladies every vowel and consonant was clear, even if - and perhaps because - they were not natives. Of course there are limits to one's tolerance Franco Corelli and French never saw "i" to "i," or "r" to "r," etc., etc.
> 
> Listen to the lovely Mme. Flagstad sing our fair tongue and put the rest of us to shame:


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Hey guys, I started a _dope_ thread to keep this one _on track_. 
http://www.talkclassical.com/40239-all-track-field-athletes.html


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

sharik said:


> especially these days. Netrebko was one of the last singers capable of good acting in opera productions.
> 
> modern productions have made today's singers all turn hammy.


I don't know why you would say that. How about Natalie Dessay, Jonas Kaufmann, Simon Keenlyside, Joyce DiDonato? All very capable and natural actors. I thought the same about Aleksandra Kurzak when I saw her recently.

Which modern productions are you talking about, by the way? _All_ of them?


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't know why you would say that. How about Natalie Dessay, Jonas Kaufmann


Dessay is not capable of playing tragic roles; fun alone is not enough, however garishly it can attract; her appearance in _La Fille Du Regiment_ might be fun but does not amount to good acting as we know it. Kaufmann acts like a robot.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> That's just the Callas haters showing up to make a show. They always behave like rugby fans.


Ahem. As the Rugby World Cup is currently on I feel I have the right to correct you. As the saying goes...

Football is a gentleman's game played by hooligans, and Rugby is a hooligans' game played by gentlemen.

As you are American and don't really understand the difference, I will help you and correct your outburst!



Marschallin Blair said:


> That's just the Callas haters showing up to make a show. They always behave like Soccer Moms.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

I saw Ms Dessay last year in La Traviata and was -very- impressed. Her acting was -great- in that role IMHO.

Then I went home, fired up the interweb and saw zillions of 'hate' msgs... too 'haggard' for the role (ridiculous--she's supposed to be a beat up end of career prostitute, right?)



sharik said:


> Dessay is not capable of playing tragic roles; fun alone is not enough, however garishly it can attract; her appearance in _La Fille Du Regiment_ might be fun but does not amount to good acting as we know it. Kaufmann acts like a robot.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Belowpar said:


> Ahem. As the Rugby World Cup is currently on I feel I have the right to correct you. As the saying goes...
> 
> Football is a gentleman's game played by hooligans, and Rugby is a hooligans' game played by gentlemen.
> 
> As you are American and don't really understand the difference, I will help you and correct your outburst!


In rugby there enough rough stuff going on on the field without the stands adding to it. Interesting when you go to a rugby match there is no fighting among spectators and no segregation as in soccer. After the game there might be some high jinks in the pub but you can go there and spectate quite safely!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

suntower said:


> I saw Ms Dessay last year in La Traviata and was -very- impressed. Her acting was -great- in that role IMHO.
> 
> Then I went home, fired up the interweb and saw zillions of 'hate' msgs... too 'haggard' for the role (ridiculous--she's supposed to be a beat up end of career prostitute, right?)


Well actually not quite, no. When Alfredo (or Germont in the Alexandre Dumas novel or play) meets her, she is at the height of her popularity. She gives up everything to be with Alfredo. He is absolutely not her last resort. That's sort of the point.

I can't comment on Ms Dessay's Violetta as I never saw it, but she is an appreciable actress.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> Ahem. As the Rugby World Cup is currently on I feel I have the right to correct you. As the saying goes...
> 
> Football is a gentleman's game played by hooligans, and Rugby is a hooligans' game played by gentlemen.
> 
> As you are American and don't really understand the difference, I will help you and correct your outburst!


So you're "_making the world a better place by correcting the faults. . . . . . ' ' of others' _' "- I love that.

Those are the very words I live by.

- Duly noted on the rugby. _;D_


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

suntower said:


> I saw Ms Dessay last year in La Traviata


i too saw her in _La Traviata_ telecast from Aix-en-Provence, it was outright horrible, but mostly the stage director should be blamed for that.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sharik said:


> i too saw her in _La Traviata_ telecast from Aix-en-Provence, it was outright horrible, but mostly the stage director should be blamed for that.


Isn't it amazing these. People who go round makes ng life horrible for their customers.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

I knew as soon as I saw someone had started a thread on Ms Netrebko it would catch fire pretty quickly. She seems to divide opinion everywhere you look. I've always liked her voice but her choice of repertoire often startles me and I'm amazed she hasn't ruined her voice like many before her. As an actress I think she can sometimes be pretty convincing. Her Juliette opposite Alagne in the Met broadcast was touching though not as good as Vaduva or Machaidze. The Met audience seems to adore her, even when she isn't performing well - there's a youtube audio clip of her somewhere failing to hit the end of _spargi d'amoro pianto _after two attempts and the audience still goes wild. It reminded me of the current trend among audiences (which seems to have arisen from TV reality talent (I use the term loosely) shows to applaud every time someone sings loudly.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

No, I get that. But she was pretty nimble and sexy dancing on the couch. (A LOT sexier IMHO than the typical 200lb model one usually sees. Sorry if that sounds snarky.) In any case, I bought her as a high end call girl.

But I more meant at the end. I mean she let her 40 years really work for her. She -looked- tired and sick and vulnerable and that was great.

Maybe she did another production. The one I saw was Met HD.

And BTW the older actress who played Azuchena in Trovatore was also great in that way. She's frankly not great looking but she made it -work- for her. I TOTALLY bought her as a bitter Gypsy/Witch. I mean she had that method acting thing going. She had obviously played the role many times and she got -inside- it like a theatre actor. So it cuts both ways.

Anna just didn't seem like she was playing her character. She looked like she was afraid of breaking a nail. The guy goes to kiss her and it's like... "you'll ruin my makeup, dude!"



GregMitchell said:


> Well actually not quite, no. When Alfredo (or Germont in the Alexandre Dumas novel or play) meets her, she is at the height of her popularity. She gives up everything to be with Alfredo. He is absolutely not her last resort. That's sort of the point.
> 
> I can't comment on Ms Dessay's Violetta as I never saw it, but she is an appreciable actress.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Braddan said:


> I knew as soon as I saw someone had started a thread on Ms Netrebko it would catch fire pretty quickly. She seems to divide opinion everywhere you look. I've always liked her voice but her choice of repertoire often startles me and I'm amazed she hasn't ruined her voice like many before her. As an actress I think she can sometimes be pretty convincing. Her Juliette opposite Alagne in the Met broadcast was touching though not as good as Vaduva or Machaidze. The Met audience seems to adore her, even when she isn't performing well - there's a youtube audio clip of her somewhere failing to hit the end of _spargi d'amoro pianto _after two attempts and the audience still goes wild. It reminded me of the current trend among audiences (which seems to have arisen from TV reality talent (I use the term loosely) shows to applaud every time someone sings loudly.


Met audiences have always been ready to applaud singers who make a big noise. It's been an aspect of the Saturday broadcasts that's always annoyed me. When I was fairly new to opera and listening over the radio to a past-his-best Corelli bellowing and gargling his way through _Faust_ and _Werther_, the audiences would go hysterical after his arias. I was simply baffled by the enthusiasm for such brutality being inflicted on French culture. I'd as soon have been watching a matador being gored by a bull. But he was loud (OK, he was handsome too). They like that. Both of those things.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

N


suntower said:


> No, I get that. But she was pretty nimble and sexy dancing on the couch. (A LOT sexier IMHO than the typical 200lb model one usually sees. Sorry if that sounds snarky.) In any case, I bought her as a high end call girl.
> 
> But I more meant at the end. I mean she let her 40 years really work for her. She -looked- tired and sick and vulnerable and that was great.
> 
> ...


The problem with seeing it in HD is the actors tend to look their age, which is generally on the mature side for singing the big roles. On the stage you can get away with but the camera is merciless!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Met audiences have always been ready to applaud singers who make a big noise. It's been an aspect of the Saturday broadcasts that's always annoyed me. When I was fairly new to opera and listening over the radio to a past-his-best Corelli bellowing and gargling his way through _Faust_ and _Werther_, the audiences would go hysterical after his arias. I was simply baffled by the enthusiasm for such brutality being inflicted on French culture. I'd as soon have been watching a matador being gored by a bull. But he was loud (OK, he was handsome too). They like that. Both of those things.


I heard a Paggliacci from Italy I'mn which the bawler supreme was attacking vesta la guibba with all the subtle of a pile driver. Crowd went wild. Not a new thing!


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

That's actually a good point. Although the theatre near me has these AMAZING Lazy-Boy recliners and serve mixed drinks and snacks, so there's that.

To yer point. They NEVER pull back the camera. You're always in the singers' faces so you see all the stage make-up. Plus they -are- stage acting (broader gestures). I sometimes wish they would just have a fixed camera in like row 10 so one could see the whole stage at least -occasionally-. Perhaps in the VR future.



DavidA said:


> N
> 
> The problem with seeing it in HD is the actors tend to look their age, which is generally on the mature side for singing the big roles. On the stage you can get away with but the camera is merciless!


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Another great point.

I spent like 20+ years out of music school making fun of Pagliacci like so: 




I finally saw it about 5 years ago with a sensitive production and it just opened my eyes. One of the best things I've ever seen--in any art form. That may have been what got me hooked. It seems one has to kiss a lot o' frogs to get one really memorable production.



DavidA said:


> I heard a Paggliacci from Italy I'mn which the bawler supreme was attacking vesta la guibba with all the subtle of a pile driver. Crowd went wild. Not a new thing!


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

suntower said:


> In any case, I bought her as a high end call girl.


but that is *your* problem.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

sharik said:


> but that is *your* problem.


In the source play La dame aux camellias, the heroine is a courtesan. However, in the opera Violetta is more of a demimondaine which would still be an unwanted association for the respectable famille Germont. Either interpretation could be acceptable depending on the production but she is certainly "not a beat up end of career prostitute" as you (Suntower) so delicately put it. She is very ill.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Braddan said:


> in the opera Violetta is more of a demimondaine


That's very good. I'll have to remember that.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've always loved the sheer sound of Netrebko's voice; she probably has one of my favorite soprano timbres ever. She has one of those soprano voices that's equally good throughout its range, not just on high. I think that as an artist Netrebko's main quality is spontaneity, which is exciting but can also come across as carelessness. I find her physical acting meticulous but a little aloof. She certainly is a beautiful woman -- not merely "pretty," but _beautiful_ -- and to me this is obvious notwithstanding the weight gain.

I am just old enough to remember when Netrebko first started becoming famous here in the US (1998 or so). At the time she could do no wrong; it seemed everyone loved her. Now she gets a degree of hate that, frankly, turns my stomach. She's not perfect -- no singer is, not even the above-mentioned Callas or Caballe (both of whom, by the way, received more than their fair share of nasty remarks and continue to do so). It has crossed my mind that it may be the extraordinary invective Netrebko receives that has led her to gain weight. I do know from experience that some people cope with stress by overeating.


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

The story of La Traviata is a true, very beautiful but tragic love story of Alexandre Dumas jr. After learning news of his ex-lover died of tuberculosis, he wrote the story, La dame aux Camelias, in a very short time and it was so well written that it earned him a place (fauteuil) in the prestigious Academie Francaise. A honour that even his father, Alexandre Dumas Sr, couldn't even earn. 

This romance - La dame aux Camelias - is beautifully written. In Opera, she is called - Violetta -. But in the story, her name is Marguerite - 

There is a traduction in english of this romance . Here is the last paragraph

---
I do not draw from this story the conclusion that all women like Marguerite are capable of doing all that she did—far from it; but I have discovered that one of them experienced a serious love in the course of her life, that she suffered for it, and that she died of it. I have told the reader all that I learned. It was my duty. 

I am not the apostle of vice, but I would gladly be the echo of noble sorrow wherever I bear its voice in prayer. 
The story of Marguerite is an exception, I repeat; had it not been an exception, it would not have been worth the trouble of writing it. 

---
I read the romance dozen of times and since I learned to enjoy opera, every time I watch/listen to La Traviata, I always read the romance first. I think it helps to feel more.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Whoever said "I think her popularity has more to do with her looks than her voice" could not possibly have seen the latest_ Il trovatore _which was total perfection. 
I haven't seen a singer grow that spectacularly into a supreme soprano who delivers on every count like "her Nebs" has done.
Her voice has matured and become rich and deep and her performances are committed and even though she is not the adorable slim soubrette she once was, she's still a beautiful woman with a lovely face.
Bottom line: The lady is the entire package. It took a while but she DID IT!!!!
PS: Make sure to see the Met "Trovatore" which is superb with a strong cast in all categories. It will likely become an historic production. The likes of Netrebko at her best, Yonghoon Lee who has come a long way and developed into an exciting tenor, Dolora Zajick whose Azucena was chilling, and the star of the evening, Dmitri Hvorostovsky, who brought out every stop with his "Il balen" and the audience gave him their loving acceptance with their appreciation for his last role for a while till his brain tumor is better. Even the pit musicians got into the act and threw him white roses at the final curtain call.
It was a special, truly dramatic and touching evening at the Met.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

What I've heard I've liked.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks. Is there a DVD or CD you can recommend which displays her at what you'd reckon is her best?



Bellinilover said:


> I've always loved the sheer sound of Netrebko's voice; she probably has one of my favorite soprano timbres ever. She has one of those soprano voices that's equally good throughout its range, not just on high. I think that as an artist Netrebko's main quality is spontaneity, which is exciting but can also come across as carelessness. I find her physical acting meticulous but a little aloof. She certainly is a beautiful woman -- not merely "pretty," but _beautiful_ -- and to me this is obvious notwithstanding the weight gain.
> 
> I am just old enough to remember when Netrebko first started becoming famous here in the US (1998 or so). At the time she could do no wrong; it seemed everyone loved her. Now she gets a degree of hate that, frankly, turns my stomach. She's not perfect -- no singer is, not even the above-mentioned Callas or Caballe (both of whom, by the way, received more than their fair share of nasty remarks and continue to do so). It has crossed my mind that it may be the extraordinary invective Netrebko receives that has led her to gain weight. I do know from experience that some people cope with stress by overeating.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

suntower said:


> Thanks. Is there a DVD or CD you can recommend which displays her at what you'd reckon is her best?


L'Elisir d'Amore with Villazon.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

In 2007 there was a series of opera gala performances in Baden-Baden which featured Anna Netrebko, Elina Garanca, Ramon Vargas and Ludovic Tezier. A documentary crew was present during the rehearsals and performances and the results made into a program which can be seen on YouTube. There are a number of quite enlightening, off-the-cuff discussions amongst the singers, particularly Netrebko & Garanca. I won't offer my opinions from them but suggest that those interested go and watch the program. Here is a link to part 1 of 6...


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Wow. Physically she's like a different person from the woman I saw the other night in Trovatore. Her voice seems a LOT lighter as well.



Becca said:


> In 2007 there was a series of opera gala performances in Baden-Baden which featured Anna Netrebko, Elina Garanca, Ramon Vargas and Ludovic Tezier. A documentary crew was present during the rehearsals and performances and the results made into a program which can be seen on YouTube. There are a number of quite enlightening, off-the-cuff discussions amongst the singers, particularly Netrebko & Garanca. I won't offer my opinions from them but suggest that those interested go and watch the program. Here is a link to part 1 of 6...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> L'Elisir d'Amore with Villazon.


Pretty good. I have that one too


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Itullian said:


> L'Elisir d'Amore with Villazon.


even more so _La Traviata_ with them both -


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

sharik said:


> even more so _La Traviata_ with them both -
> 
> The worst stage production ever being showed to public.
> Pass me the bucket please.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> She's about to sing *Norma* at the Met. I have no idea how she will get through it, but I have no doubt she will be glossing over most of the role's difficulties. Maybe that's the best we can expect these days.


Are you seriously saying you have not found Sondra Radvanovsky's portrayal of Norma to be exceptional and right up there with the golden oldies? That's not possible. I think maybe you never saw her in it, right?
But to get back to Netrebko -- I'd be willing to bet you that with her new richer, deeper sound (who said it was "lighter" here? Hello??) she will be spectacular in the role with no "glossing over the role's difficulties".
I agree that she took on bel canto which was not her cuppa but that was then and this is now and she has taken giant strides and found her fach.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Are you seriously saying you have not found Sondra Radvanovsky's portrayal of Norma to be exceptional and right up there with the golden oldies? That's not possible. I think maybe you never saw her in it, right?
> But to get back to Netrebko -- I'd be willing to bet you that with her new richer, deeper sound (who said it was "lighter" here? Hello??) she will be spectacular in the role with no "glossing over the role's difficulties".
> I agree that she took on bel canto which was not her cuppa but that was then and this is now and she has taken giant strides and found her fach.


Well I've only heard excerpts on youtube, but, yes, I am seriously suggesting she is not up there with the likes of Ponselle, Callas, Sutherland and Caballe. She has a powerful voice, which she uses well, but she reminds me mostly of Cigna, who also approximated many of the role's coloratura demands. Listen to her rendition of _No, non tremare_, and then listen to Callas, Sutherland or Caballe. She gets round the notes up to a point, but she is nowhere near as accurate. What's more, with Callas, you get both power _and_ accuracy.

As for Netrebko, well I've heard a couple of her versions of _Casta Diva_, and, though there is pleasure to be derived from the sound of the voice itself, she has difficulty with the filigree. Her legato is generally good, but the gruppetti are clumsy and vaguely executed, she doesn't have a trill and her downward chromatic scale is just a slither. It doesn't bode well for her attempt at the complete role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sharik said:


> even more so _La Traviata_ with them both -


I watched this on YouTube and didn't like the production for a variety of reasons, but found Netrebko and Villazon in excellent form and quite successful at realizing the concept. If Violetta has to act ****ty, hang off the hands of a giant clock, not look the least bit tubercular, and not die in bed, I guess I'll take the lovely Anna doing it (but only once, thanks).


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

^ And push guys around at the _soirée_?

What _Dame aux camellias_ would do that?

That is, what one outside of Rollerball?

- Try again, Anna.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I remember reading an interview somewhere in which Anna spouted some nonsense about creating a Violetta who was more modern, more assertive. Well that may be your version, or the producer's, Anna, but it certainly isn't Verdi's. I have no problem with updating productions, as long as the intentions of the composer and librettist are still observed.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I remember reading an interview somewhere in which Anna spouted some nonsense about creating a Violetta who was more modern, more assertive. Well that may be your version, or the producer's, Anna, but it certainly isn't Verdi's. I have no problem with updating productions, as long as the intentions of the composer and librettist are still observed.












Absolutely.

Where are the Visconti's of today?


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## Antony (Nov 4, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Where are the Visconti's of today?


How can possibly be a comparison between Anna Netrebko with Maria Callas ??? You don't play fair 

In La Traviata:Compare Anna Netrebko with Natalie Dessay or Angela Gheorghiu or Renee Fleming. How does she fare? 
I hardly think Anna, technically, can beat any of them. As for the stage, the stages Traviata of Renee Fleming and Angela Gheorghiu 
are simply fabulous.

How will Anna fare in Norma? We'll all see. But the last Norma with Cecilia Bartoli is ...well, my dear Cecilia, I really love your voice that I put your Norma on the shelves with other productions.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

She's middle of the road to me. I don't avoid her albums, nor do I got out of my way to buy them. I liked her in Iolanta, in general I think I enjoy when she's singing in her native tongue.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Antony said:


> How can possibly be a comparison between Anna Netrebko with Maria Callas ??? You don't play fair
> 
> In La Traviata:Compare Anna Netrebko with Natalie Dessay or Angela Gheorghiu or Renee Fleming. How does she fare?
> I hardly think Anna, technically, can beat any of them. As for the stage, the stages Traviata of Renee Fleming and Angela Gheorghiu
> ...












Oh, it would never even occur to me to compare Callas and Netrebko._ ;D_

I was merely referring to beautiful costumes and set designs of the lush but 'historically-incorrect' Visconti productions.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Pugg said:


> The worst stage production ever being showed to public.


you should have seen the latest La Scala production of _La Traviata_ staged by Tchernakov, thats where it gets worst of all.



Woodduck said:


> I watched this on YouTube and didn't like the production


neither did i, but in this case the stage director had managed to cheat the supervisors and their ideology police; he pretended to stage a defamation while actually not harming the music itself and, moreover, while in fact reinforcing it with the goings on so closely following the score's rhytm (instead of flying that in the face of music as was expected by his ideologists) as whenever before where it used to be conventional productions of this opera.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Sonata said:


> She's middle of the road to me. I don't avoid her albums, nor do I got out of my way to buy them. I liked her in Iolanta, in general I think I enjoy when she's singing in her native tongue.


I enjoyed Anna in Iolanta... but playing a teenager? That was another one of those suspensions of disbelief. The guy playing her father was pretty great, though.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I watched this on YouTube and didn't like the production for a variety of reasons, but found Netrebko and Villazon in excellent form and quite successful at realizing the concept. If Violetta has to act ****ty, hang off the hands of a giant clock, not look the least bit tubercular, and not die in bed, I guess I'll take the lovely Anna doing it (but only once, thanks).


Thanks for this. It's always VERY cool to me to see different singers in exactly the same production. This is the production I saw (that I liked) with Dessay as Violetta. This is why I referred to the character as a call girl... that's how she's portrayed (and described in the printed program BTW) I almost always like the 'minimalist/modernist' productions The Met tends to do.

In any case, this is probably the great divide among 'opera lovers'... what I respond to most is that in this production she LOOKS more like the character... young, vulnerable. She physically can't do that anymore. It's not her size... it's her attitude. In these videos she just looks a LOT more believable than what I saw her do in Trovatore.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

suntower said:


> I enjoyed Anna in Iolanta... but playing a teenager? That was another one of those suspensions of disbelief. The guy playing her father was pretty great, though.


If you can´t accept Anna Netrebko who despite her chubbyness looks rather young as a teenager you should avoid seeing opera at all.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I consider Anna a great singer. Just wish she hadn't packed on the pounds.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Sloe said:


> If you can´t accept Anna Netrebko who despite her chubbyness looks rather young as a teenager you should avoid seeing opera at all.


As I wrote... it's her -acting- that has changed IMO. The videos I've been watching of her younger self (since I started this thread) are eye-opening. Her whole stage presence has changed. It's not the lbs per se.

In any case, I appreciate the replies from posters with their recommendations. It's night and day the difference between 2015 Anna and even 7-8 years ago. What I find so interesting are those that prefer how in the now. I may be ignorant, but I much preferred her younger 'lighter' voice.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

suntower said:


> As I wrote... it's her -acting- that has changed IMO. The videos I've been watching of her younger self (since I started this thread) are eye-opening. Her whole stage presence has changed. It's not the lbs per se.
> 
> In any case, I appreciate the replies from posters with their recommendations. It's night and day the difference between 2015 Anna and even 7-8 years ago. What I find so interesting are those that prefer how in the now. I may be ignorant, but I much preferred her younger 'lighter' voice.


What then makes her less beliavable as a young girl than any other singer in the same age or younger. I still think she is youthfull as a singer she can sing her roles.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Look, people like what they like. And what I've noticed a LOT of opera lovers (far more experienced than me) don't give a **** about acting/stage presence. They like VOICE and will forgive almost everything else. And they don't wanna hear complaints about that extraneous stuff (acting/staging/etc.) As long as the 'line' is pure? They're good. I've read this sort of appreciation in books going back 300 years. OK, fine, so they and I have nothing to discuss.

FWIW: I was a pit musician for many years. I've played a gazillion Broadway shows. I like great musical theatre. I value -acting- and staging as much as pure bel canto. That's been my main issue in getting with opera... I'm just not willing to forgive (sorry!) fat people hamming it up; crappy libretti; ridiculous staging. It's a -show- for God's sake. I want the integrated experience that I've come to expect from a great Broadway show.

In Anna's case, I dunno what happened, but the woman I see in these videos in 2008 -behaves- a lot younger/unpretentious/vulnerable/gentle. The woman I see -today- -behaves- older/more pretentious/bitchier.. I mean her -acting- conveys that. Plus her voice seems like an octave deeper, which also makes it tougher to see her as 'young'. I say again, it's not the lbs. per se (although that doesn't help).

It's tough to write this because I -know- these comments offend a certain type of opera lover who thinks I "don't get it" and I'm sorry about that. But I think I do get it. I just think I appreciate a different aspect of the art.



Sloe said:


> What then makes her less beliavable as a young girl than any other singer in the same age or younger. I still think she is youthfull as a singer she can sing her roles.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

suntower said:


> Look, people like what they like. And what I've noticed a LOT of opera lovers (far more experienced than me) don't give a **** about acting/stage presence. They like VOICE and will forgive almost everything else. And they don't wanna hear complaints about that extraneous stuff (acting/staging/etc.) As long as the 'line' is pure? They're good. I've read this sort of appreciation in books going back 300 years. OK, fine, so they and I have nothing to discuss.
> 
> FWIW: I was a pit musician for many years. I've played a gazillion Broadway shows. I like great musical theatre. I value -acting- and staging as much as pure bel canto. That's been my main issue in getting with opera... I'm just not willing to forgive (sorry!) fat people hamming it up; crappy libretti; ridiculous staging. It's a -show- for God's sake. I want the integrated experience that I've come to expect from a great Broadway show.
> 
> ...


Your point of view is completely legitimate and no one should knock you for it. Opera is theater, and it should be good theater.

And well-sung, of course!

:tiphat:


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

suntower said:


> In Anna's case, I dunno what happened, but the woman I see in these videos in 2008 -behaves- a lot younger/unpretentious/vulnerable/gentle. The woman I see -today- -behaves- older/more pretentious/bitchier.. I mean her -acting- conveys that. Plus her voice seems like an octave deeper, which also makes it tougher to see her as 'young'. I say again, it's not the lbs. per se (although that doesn't help).
> 
> It's tough to write this because I -know- these comments offend a certain type of opera lover who thinks I "don't get it" and I'm sorry about that. But I think I do get it. I just think I appreciate a different aspect of the art.


I don´t notice that or at least I am not bothered by it. On the other hand if you did not know about Anna Netrebko from 8 years ago what would you think then? Is her acting and singing less youthfull than any other singer?
I am only curious.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Your point of view is completely legitimate and no one should knock you for it. Opera is theater, and it should be good theater.
> 
> And well-sung, of course!
> 
> :tiphat:


Well, I take a more catholic view, myself.

'Everybody' is entitled to 'my' opinion.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I don´t notice that or at least I am not bothered by it. On the other hand if you did not know about Anna Netrebko from 8 years ago what would you think then? Is her acting and singing less youthfull than any other singer?
> I am only curious.


That's psychology at work. -I- think I look -identical- to how I did 8 years ago. People who see me often probably don't think I've changed much.

People who don't know me... and would only see a piccie of me 8 years ago and then meet me now would probably think? Jesus, dude you've gone to HELL. 

All I can tell ya is that I'm looking at videos of her in 2007 and then recalling her in Trovatore 2 nights ago and she's like a whole different person as I wrote. Deeper voice. Poorer acting.

I keep referring to Dessay... only because there are videos of her doing the same La Traviata production as Anna... and although 40, she conveyed (to me) a much more light-hearted timbre and affect than the 2015 Anna I saw 2 nights ago. Most theatre actors don't change -that- much in 7-8 years.


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## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

suntower said:


> Look, people like what they like. And what I've noticed a LOT of opera lovers (far more experienced than me) don't give a **** about acting/stage presence. They like VOICE and will forgive almost everything else. And they don't wanna hear complaints about that extraneous stuff (acting/staging/etc.) As long as the 'line' is pure? They're good. I've read this sort of appreciation in books going back 300 years. OK, fine, so they and I have nothing to discuss.


I came to opera by the way of musical theatre and operetta and I think you'll probably find, if you stick with it, that there are many of us who *do care *about acting and staging. There is nothing worse than beautiful singing and potentially great drama being undermined by appalling productions. I saw a certain contemporary tenor in Turandot ruin it for me because of his dreadful acting on stage, despite some fairly good singing. Actually, he didn't even try to act. They might as well have place a plank of wood on stage and played a cd.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Braddan said:


> I came to opera by the way of musical theatre and operetta and I think you'll probably find, if you stick with it, that there are many of us who *do care *about acting and staging. There is nothing worse than beautiful singing and potentially great drama being undermined by appalling productions. I saw a certain contemporary tenor in Turandot ruin it for me because of his dreadful acting on stage, despite some fairly good singing. Actually, he didn't even try to act. They might as well have place a plank of wood on stage and played a cd.


I must say my sense for noticing bad or good acting is nearly non-existant.


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## suntower (Mar 29, 2015)

My guess (and this is only a guess) is that as one gets away from the 'warhorses', the acting becomes more consistent.

I live in Seattle most of the year and 90% of their repertoire are 'the big hits' or The Ring. And frankly, the avg. audience age is about 700 give or take. And these people don't pay $120+ for 'drama'. They want to hear -their- aria. Singers routinely break character. At times the story is almost an afterthought.

However, they did a Pagliacci 5-6 years ago which was in deadly earnest and it opened my eyes. I really felt like I was at one of the best plays ever. Complete surprise.

I dunno how well it's generally regarded, but I saw the Met version of Bluebeard a while back and was stunned. It was like being in a really good movie thriller (well, an expressionist movie thriller.) That's probably the best thing I've seen live so far. I should remember the singers, but I wasn't going to see 'singers'... I was going to see Bluebeard.



Braddan said:


> I came to opera by the way of musical theatre and operetta and I think you'll probably find, if you stick with it, that there are many of us who *do care *about acting and staging. There is nothing worse than beautiful singing and potentially great drama being undermined by appalling productions. I saw a certain contemporary tenor in Turandot ruin it for me because of his dreadful acting on stage, despite some fairly good singing. Actually, he didn't even try to act. They might as well have place a plank of wood on stage and played a cd.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well, I take a more catholic view, myself.
> 
> 'Everybody' is entitled to 'my' opinion.


Diplomacy (definition): The art of letting someone else have your way.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> Diplomacy (definition): The art of letting someone else have your way.


Its an art of 'give-and-take'- where I give everything and take nothing.

_;D_


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I like her a lot and think she brings star power that one rarely sees today. I favor darker voices so I like her high voice with a dark color, as she says it. Still, she is no equal for Callas, Sutherland, Caballe or Verrett in the bel canto repertoire. Ewa Podles is about the only Golden Age voice around today.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

The last time I saw Anna Netrebko in an opera was in late 2013, when she sang Tatiana in EUGENE ONEGIN at the Met (I went to the HD transmission). What I observed was that her acting was very detailed and believable, but it didn't quite "invite me in" the way Renee Fleming's did when she sang Tatiana at the Met several years before that (in a performance that's now on DVD). It's ironic, because Renee was about 48 at the time which means she was even further away from Tatiana's age than was Anna, and Renee didn't seem as much of an "actress" as Anna (more a "personality") -- and yet somehow her Tatiana drew me in in a way that Anna's did not, much as I admired it. I think Anna's acting was more realistic but a little aloof, whereas Renee's acting was less "Method-like" but more charismatic. So, I think Anna is a highly skilled actress -- though I must admit her weight was slightly distracting in the Letter Scene (where she was wearing a long skirt but only a corset on top).


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> The last time I saw Anna Netrebko in an opera was in late 2013, when she sang Tatiana in EUGENE ONEGIN at the Met (I went to the HD transmission). What I observed was that her acting was very detailed and believable, but it didn't quite "invite me in" the way Renee Fleming's did when she sang Tatiana at the Met several years before that (in a performance that's now on DVD).


the production with Netrebko was a horrible one, while with Fleming it was a beautiful production, so these cannot be compared that easy. Netrebko acting was bad, but Fleming's even worse, despite the fact that her production was a piece of cake to participate in.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

sharik said:


> the production with Netrebko was a horrible one, while with Fleming it was a beautiful production, so these cannot be compared that easy. Netrebko acting was bad, but Fleming's even worse, despite the fact that her production was a piece of cake to participate in.


Let's just say that the only part of your post I agree with is when you wrote that the production with Fleming was a beautiful one.

But how do you know that the production with Fleming was "a piece of cake to participate in"? What you really mean is that it _looked_ so to _you_. Unless you're one of the singers who was in the production (which I highly doubt), you can't possibly know that.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> But how do you know that the production with Fleming was "a piece of cake to participate in"?


from the look of it, a *normal* production, at last, that anyone would be happy to be part of, as opposed to what Netrebko had to endure in the latter Met production of EO.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

I fully agree with sharik on this one.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

sharik said:


> from the look of it, a *normal* production, at last, that anyone would be happy to be part of, as opposed to what Netrebko had to endure in the latter Met production of EO.


Well, I don't know how "normal" it looked -- the set was quite abstract, whereas the one with Netrebko had more literal, realistic (if updated, to the turn of the last century) settings.

More to the point, I don't understand how you can claim the acting of either Netrebko or Fleming was terrible. One moment of Fleming's that I'll always remember is the way she very quickly grabbed the letter from Onegin's hand after his rejection of her in the last scene of Act I -- as if she was so ashamed by what she'd done in revealing her feelings that she couldn't wait to forget the whole incident had ever happened. As for Netrebko, I'll always remember (for example) how she nervously twined her fingers through her hair as she saw Onegin approaching in the same scene; there was a real buildup of tension. Having had 12 years of acting training/experience, and ten additional years of simply watching acting in plays and films (basically, I came to opera from a background in the spoken theatre), I think I know good and insightful acting when I see it. Neither Fleming nor Netrebko is a trained, Method style actor, of course, but then one neither expects nor wants that from an opera singer. For opera singers -- musicians -- their acting is very good.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Ilarion said:


> I fully agree with sharik on this one.


So do I, :tiphat:


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Neither Fleming nor Netrebko is a trained, Method style actor


the latter was trained as an actor since she had started her career with The Maryinsky, a theater that employed the Stanislavsky method of acting technique like many companies in these parts of the world, but later she lost it completely when joined the Met where they force her to do soap, like those hackneyed palm-to-mouth gestures, while forbidding her to act in a smooth manner of air-like movements she was taught initially.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

sharik said:


> the latter was trained as an actor since she had started her career with The Maryinsky, a theater that employed the Stanislavsky method of acting technique like many companies in these parts of the world, but later she lost it completely when joined the Met where they force her to do soap, like those hackneyed palm-to-mouth gestures, while forbidding her to act in a smooth manner of air-like movements she was taught initially.


I hadn't known that about Netrebko and Stanislavsky. You say she went from "airier" movements to "palm to mouth gestures," but couldn't this have something to do with the enormous size of the Met, and with the fact that expressions and gestures have to "read," not simply on a movie screen, but to the in-house audience? The "airier" gestures that might read well in the Russian house might not read so well at the Met. If you watch Met telecasts from the 1970's you'll see that many of the gestures -- even those of a singer acclaimed for her acting like Renata Scotto -- look rather obvious on a small screen, but I think that's because those singers were consciously acting for the opera house rather than specifically for the small screen. I have never thought Netrebko's acting looked silly, and as I said I've had acting training and was a frequent theatre-goer before I began attending operas. I always make allowances for the fact that opera singers are not, first and foremost, _actors_ but _musicians_ -- because even if they're well-acquainted with the Method, that doesn't mean the final result will necessarily resemble, say, Meryl Streep, as whatever Method techniques the singer knows will have to be accommodated to the physical act of vocal production, and to the other differences that exist between the "straight" theatre and opera.

Sharik, it's abundantly clear that you don't like Netrebko (and Fleming?). It's your right not to like her (or them). But personally, I think you're splitting hairs when you criticize Netrebko's acting and the ONEGIN production she was in. It sounds to me as if you're looking for reasons to justify not liking Netrebko, when you could just say that you don't care for her voice and style, and leave it at that. As for the ONEGIN productions, I too preferred the one with Fleming to the one with Netrebko, but I'd never say the production with Netrebko was bad or that it wasn't a legitimate way to present ONEGIN, simply because I didn't like Netrebko.

I'm done with this thread as I have nothing more to say.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I like her in Prokefiev's opera, Betrothal in a Monastery on DVD. 

I think Anna would make a great Norina in Don Pasquale. I do not see a recording. Has she ever sung that role?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I like her in Prokefiev's opera, Betrothal in a Monastery on DVD.
> 
> I think Anna would make a great Norina in Don Pasquale. I do not see a recording. Has she ever sung that role?


Wow! Yes at the Met and there is a DVD/blu-ray:









I wouldn't have thought that she would be right for the role, but she must have been inspired by Norina as she is very strong and confident in the part. I think this may be the best overall Pasquale on DVD (although, I'm a Florez fan and so like his version too).

I must get over to the Netrebko as Salome thread and post!

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The Conte said:


> Wow! Yes at the Met and there is a DVD/blu-ray:
> 
> I wouldn't have thought that she would be right for the role, but she must have been inspired by Norina as she is very strong and confident in the part. I think this may be the best overall Pasquale on DVD (although, I'm a Florez fan and so like his version too).
> 
> ...


Ah, that is the problem. I was looking at audio recordings and missed this. Well, if I get another Don Pasquale, this should be the one.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is she does quite a nice Amina. Need a full recording of La Sonnambula with Anna.


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