# What do you think of Beethoven's "10th Symphony"



## Doctuses (Jun 11, 2018)

I just listened to Barry Cooper's realization of the first movement. I'm not sure what I think yet. Sounds a bit too Romantic for B.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2018)

I think it's an interesting musicological exercise, really. There are far fewer sketches for it, so the creative scope for its composition is wider than, say, a completion of Mahler's 10th or Berg's _Lulu._


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## Doctuses (Jun 11, 2018)

Yeah it doesn't seem like it can really be much more than an exercise, rather than actually realizing his intended work. But in a different vein to someone who's listened to Beethoven his whole life, there's something familiar about it. IDK.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Much as I appreciate Barry Cooper (and I do!), he should be flogged for this. It's terrible. And there's a good chance that the sketches he used were never intended for a "10th Symphony", even in their rudimentary form.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Interesting attempt - but it's sure not Beethoven, but then, who could possibly be? I bought that CD when it first came out and played it a few times. I've often thought someone should program a concert of "Bogus Music". This Beethoven 10th, the Schubert "7th", and other rip-offs. Maybe something by Rosemary Brown for fun.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

A snoozefest. Pretty pointless to me. Beethoven spends so much time finetuning his works, that these fragmentary sketches are probably comprise just 30% of the end result if he had finished them. Great marketing trick.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

How does he know it is Beethoven? Have some manuscripts been found that is a basis for symphony no 10?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I bough the Cd for about one euro years ago. Was not worth it.


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## Doctuses (Jun 11, 2018)

I get it. Cooper does some explaining, one thing he says that even in 1812 he found these sketches along with the allegro for the D minor in the 9th, so its possible Beethoven could have used these sketches in the same form for a possible 10th symphony.


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## Doctuses (Jun 11, 2018)

Judith said:


> How does he know it is Beethoven? Have some manuscripts been found that is a basis for symphony no 10?


yes there are references in Beethoven's own words and the words of his contemporaries to a 10th symphony, and Cooper unearthed fragments that correspond to what had been said about the music. I'm not saying it's legitimate, I'm just saying this is what happened.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I'd say: what KenOC said.

Except with a touch more indifference...


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

I do like it, despite it doesn't sound like Beethoven would have intended.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

As I remember, around 1817 Beethoven was thinking about two symphonies, the second being in a “liturgical” style and using the old church modes. He made scattered sketches that gradually coalesced into the 9th Symphony, and no real work was done on the 10th then or later.

The theme(s) Cooper uses supposedly turn up in those sketches, but whether they were intended for the 9th Symphony, the 10th, or something else entirely can’t really be determined. I think the stringing together of the materials and the resulting musical form are entirely Cooper’s doing.

This is from memory and I welcome any corrections!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I like what I’ve heard.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Wait a minute!
Are we talking here of the "Wellington's Victory" (the Beethoven "Battle Symphony"!), or of some other Tenth? And if it is some other symphony, wouldn't it be Beethoven's Eleventh? Hey! Who out there doesn't appreciate the "Battle Symphony"? Come on, gang! It's Beethoven, for gawd's sake!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

SONNET CLV said:


> Wait a minute!
> Are we talking here of the "Wellington's Victory" (the Beethoven "Battle Symphony"!), or of some other Tenth? And if it is some other symphony, wouldn't it be Beethoven's Eleventh? Hey! Who out there doesn't appreciate the "Battle Symphony"? Come on, gang! It's Beethoven, for gawd's sake!


As per the OP, we are not talking about WV, but about this:










And I'm sure I'm not the only one who does not like the WV either.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Beethoven would say something unprintable (at least on this forum) and probably sue.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I've got the genuine original 4'33" version of the 10th on CD, if anyone wants it


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Ok. So I dug out my CD copy (MCA CLASSICS MCAD-6269) of the "World Premiere Beethoven Symphony No. 10" featuring the London Symphony Orchestra and Wyn Morris, conductor. I had to shake off some dust from the disc. I've had it since its release, 1988 or 1989, and haven't played it since I first got it. So it's been a while.















So, I'm playing it now.

Hmmm....

Thematically it reminds me of the second movement of Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 8, better known, perhaps, by its nickname: "The Karl Haas Theme" from the radio program _Adventures in Good Music_. With a bit of Sturm und Drang thrown into the development section. A little closer in sound to Mendelssohn, maybe, than to Beethoven. Sort of like Mendelssohn orchestrating the second movement of the Beethoven Op. 13, "Pathetique." Not bad, but then I don't appreciate Mendelssohn as I do Beethoven.

I recall that when I first listened to the 10th, that long while ago, I was reminded that Brahms's First Symphony has long been equated to a Beethoven Tenth. I remember thinking that the E-flat Major key of the Beethoven fragment had a relationship to the C Minor Key of the Brahms First, and that Brahms probably couldn't have known that Beethoven had in mind E-flat Major for his 10th. But Brahms's mind was certainly attuned enough to Beethoven's to grasp onto 3 flats for his first symphony. No mean feat, even for a Psychic, I'd suggest.

In any case, I don't condemn any music by Beethoven, though I may not especially like this piece or that piece. The guy has proven himself, time and time again. Rather, I relish some new Beethovenian fragment surfacing. I wish there were more.

And maybe I shouldn't have ignored revisiting this MCA Classics disc for so many years!

Edit add on: I'm now wondering why Beethoven would return to a theme he wrote in 1798 for the 8th Piano Sonata to grace his latest symphony, the number 10! One of the most progressive composers in history going backwards? Makes little sense to me. I can't imaging _that _guy running out of ideas!


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> Wait a minute!
> Are we talking here of the "Wellington's Victory" (the Beethoven "Battle Symphony"!), or of some other Tenth? And if it is some other symphony, wouldn't it be Beethoven's Eleventh? Hey! Who out there doesn't appreciate the "Battle Symphony"? Come on, gang! It's Beethoven, for gawd's sake!


Oh. Thought this was all about Brahms's First.......


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

For me it's a mish-mash of material that Cooper hobbled together. I don't think that much of it would ever have made it past Beethoven's recycling bin. As for Wellington's Victory its one of the few Beethoven pieces that I find unlistenable. Cooper has my respect for trying with the 10th but he needn't have bothered, tbh.


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## nikola (Sep 7, 2012)

I like it. Nothing wrong with trying to bring to life Beethoven's sketches.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

shirime said:


> I think it's an interesting musicological exercise, really. There are far fewer sketches for it, so the creative scope for its composition is wider than, say, a completion of Mahler's 10th or Berg's _Lulu._


To say the least. According to Mahler himself, his 10th symphony was finished "in the sketch". To me, the completed versions of that fall a bit short due to a lack of Mahler's brilliant and distinctive orchestration in many places, no doubt due to sensible decisions not to add too much to what Mahler left, but it works as a completed and great symphony. This supposed Beethoven 10th symphony is very far from that.


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