# Similarities between Mozart and Beethoven



## caters

So if you don't know already, here are my 2 favorite all time symphonies:

Beethoven's 5th

Symphony no. 40

And I have noticed some similarities between these 2 symphonies. And it isn't just that they are both in minor keys with flats. There is a lot more to the similarities than that. These 2 symphonies are like cousins, obviously related in some aspects but completely different in others. Here, I will in each category start with Symphony no. 40 and then show how that is similar to Beethoven's 5th.

*Motivic Development*

So here is the motif from Symphony no. 40:









There is Mozart's motif. Now here is the symphony with the motif highlighted:

View attachment Symphony no 40 with motif highlights.pdf


As you can see, pretty much all of the first movement is based on that 1 little motif. But it isn't really used anywhere else in Mozart's Symphony no. 40.

Beethoven takes this to the next level with his fifth symphony. Here is the motif:










The very famous Fate Motif. It is probably the most famous motif that exists. It has been used for a long time after Beethoven as either an homage to Beethoven(even I use it this way) or as a parody of Beethoven's 5th. Here is how much Beethoven uses it so that you can see how similar and different it is to Mozart's motif in terms of frequency:

Fate Motif Highlights

As you can see here, every movement has a significant amount based on the Fate Motif, but especially the first movement and finale. I might have missed some instances of the Fate Motif but most of those were scalar instances where it isn't all that obvious that it is rhythmically based on the Fate Motif.

*Dissonance Treatment*

This is another similarity between the 2 symphonies. They both have instances where the dissonance is not resolved right away but is instead a rearticulated suspension, building up tension until finally a huge sign of relief as it resolves. Mozart only rearticulates the dissonance a few times. Beethoven rearticulates the dissonance a lot more. Mozart's dissonance also isn't as tense as Beethoven's dissonance even if it is played once.

*The Obvious Similarities*

They are both in a minor key with flats. Mozart's has fewer flats which leads to less tension. Beethoven's has more flats which leads to more tension. Also, the beginning theme of the Scherzo of Beethoven's 5th is directly taken from Symphony no. 40's fourth movement. Both begin with what is called a Manhiem rocket. Beethoven's is left unharmonized which is the major difference from Mozart. The orchestra is almost exactly the same but Beethoven added piccolo, trombone, and contrabassoon parts to his finale.

Here are videos of the 2 symphonies:










Are ﻿there any similarities that I missed between these 2 symphonies? And does Mozart's motif appear in movements besides the first movement?
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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Good point; the two met while Beethoven was a mere 16, and Mozart was impressed; early Beethoven was very Mozart-influenced, and they make the big 3 with Bach, and so I''m not surprised at all.


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## KenOC

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Good point; the two met while Beethoven was a mere 16, and Mozart was impressed; early Beethoven was very Mozart-influenced, and they make the big 3 with Bach, and so I''m not surprised at all.


Beethoven first met Haydn in Bonn in late 1790, when he was 20 years old. There's no contemporary record of his ever meeting Mozart, although there is a much later hearsay account of a supposed meeting in Vienna in 1787.

If he _did _meet Mozart, it's odd that he never mentioned it to friends, at least as reported, although he had plenty to say about Mozart as a composer. Also, he once commented on Mozart's style of playing, so he may have heard Mozart perform.


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## cyberstudio

I just read wikipedia on Mozart #40. Beethoven even copied 29 bars of Mozart's music in his sketches, and his Scherzo bears some striking similarity to Mozart's finale. No matter they met or not, Beethoven certainly had read Mozart's score.


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## Olias

Listen to the beginning of Beethoven's first piano sonata and then the finale to Mozart 40. The resemblance is not accidental.


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## Mandryka

Eybler Quartet have been exploring some new ideas about tempi in Beethoven come out of recent research at Manchester University. I think it's a revelation because it really makes the music sound like Mozartian buffo! Maybe other interpretations do that, Beethoven is a bit peripheral to my listening, but if so I haven't noticed it as much as I did here.









One similarity between Mozart and Beethoven, IMO, is that they both were excited by the the potential of a set of variations, pushing boundaries there. I know even less about Haydn and Clementi than I do about Mozart and Beethoven, but my impression is that neither were quite so adventurous with variations.


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