# Favorite Heldentenor



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Name you top choices.
For me:
1. Melchoir
2. Jon Vickers
3. Ramon Vinay
4. Jonas Kaufmann
5. Wolfgang Windgassen


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

My favorites are Max Lorenz, Lauritz Melchior, Leo Slezak, Franz Völker and Wolfgang Windgassen.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Domingo is a lyric.

A lot of good heldentenors didn't even make that list.

Siegfried Jerusalem, Max Lorenz, James King


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I never was any fan of the classics: Melchior or Windgassen, though they can sing, no doubt. 

Anyway, I really adore Vickers voice and singing, was once enthralled by Ramon Vinay (does the label really fit him though?) and quite like James King. I even liked Siegfried Jerusalem at some point, then I've learned difference between singing and Wagnerian yelling.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I think I would have liked Melchior if he'd been recorded in modern sound, but it's hard for me to judge.

I like Jonas Kaufman, Klaus Florian Vogt, Siegfried Jerusalem, and, to a certain extent James King. It's very easy for me to dislike the Heldentenor sound, its exponents often have a vocal quality that I find unattractive.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Here's another vote for Jonas Kaufmann, as well as Siegfried Jerusalem, Klaus Florian Vogt, Sandor Konya, and Reiner Goldberg. The huge Hochdramatische voice, whether belonging to sopranos or tenors, is just one that I've never especially enjoyed listening to. I do recall an old 78-RPM recording of Franz Völker singing Tamino's arias from _Die Zauberflöte _(one aria per side) that belonged to my mother, and I did enjoy listening to it. But it's hard to list someone among my favorites on the basis of two arias!


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Aramis said:


> I never was any fan of the classics: Melchior or Windgassen, though they can sing, no doubt.
> 
> Anyway, I really adore Vickers voice and singing, was once enthralled by Ramon Vinay (does the label really fit him though?) and quite like James King. I even liked Siegfried Jerusalem at some point, then I've learned difference between singing and Wagnerian yelling.


Vinay sang Tristan ,Tannhauser and Siegmund , I would say that he qualifies, and close to the top. Vickers also.
The singer who gets mentioned but not much else, is Windgassen. Of all the Wagnerian tenors, of the top rank, WW was the only one to sing All the roles. Erik, Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Tristan, Walther (Melchior did not sing it on stage ever) Loge, Siegmund, both siegfrieds and Parsifal. He continued singing them all almost up until he died in 1974, aged 60.
He is, for me the best of them, not the best voice, but for musicianship, interpretation and timbre, I would judge him number 1, with Melchior close behind.
I am worried a little about Kaufmann. His Parsifal and Lohengrin suit him and he continues to sing them. Siegmund , having sung it at the MET in 2010 has been dropped. Walther ,which he sang once only, at the Edinburgh Festival in 2006, was dropped like the proverbial hot potato. The tessitura was all wrong for him. it is strange that tenors who sang Lohengrin well,had trouble with Siegmund because it lies too low. He is now entering the Verdi spinto category! with Trovatore, Forza , and soon....Otello?
I would class him in the Vickers mould. Great at anything he tries, I hope he tries Tristan one day.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Pip, I too, am very fond of Windgassen and really like the timbre of his voice. Kaufmann has already had some vocal problems and seemed to have fixed them, but as tempting as Tristan would be for him, I think he should shy away from it. At Lohengrin and Sigmund in Die Walkure he is marvelous.The marvelous Ben Heppner was never the same after singing Tristan here in Seattle many years ago. I do like James King, but the list was getting long. He was a fine singer early on. Ramon Vinay started out as a baritone, sang heldentenor and ended up a bass. How about them apples????
I have to give Jay Hunter Morris a special mention as he is the most gorgeous Siegfried of all time!!! Some of it is due to good wigs and makeup, but still he rocks it.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Pip said:


> Vinay sang Tristan ,Tannhauser and Siegmund , I would say that he qualifies, and close to the top. Vickers also.


And that's the trick, because singing the roles associated with fach doesn't mean the singer represents it. It's enough to mention that Domingo too sung these three roles and is anything but heldentenor.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Aramis said:


> I never was any fan of the classics: Melchior or Windgassen, though they can sing, no doubt.
> 
> Anyway, I really adore Vickers voice and singing, was once enthralled by Ramon Vinay (does the label really fit him though?) and quite like James King. I even liked Siegfried Jerusalem at some point, then I've learned difference between singing and Wagnerian yelling.


Jerusalem was decent as Tristan, not as good as Vickers but he didn't just shout.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I know he didn't "just" shout. But overally, he shouts a lot. The Siegfried from old Met cycle is full of yelled notes lacking in musical quality.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Aramis said:


> I know he didn't "just" shout. But overally, he shouts a lot. The Siegfried from old Met cycle is full of yelled notes lacking in musical quality.


Fair point. I think perhaps Wagner demanded too much from a singer, since very few come close to that true Heldentenor sound whilst still having the musicality. Lauritz Melchior was something of a treasure in that regard.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

He's a lot better in the Barenboim Ring Cycle. Better singing, more sensitive depiction. The old Met version almost put me off Siegfried for life.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

MAuer said:


> Here's another vote for Jonas Kaufmann, as well as Siegfried Jerusalem, Klaus Florian Vogt, Sandor Konya, and Reiner Goldberg. The huge Hochdramatische voice, whether belonging to sopranos or tenors, is just one that I've never especially enjoyed listening to. I do recall an old 78-RPM recording of Franz Völker singing Tamino's arias from _Die Zauberflöte _(one aria per side) that belonged to my mother, and I did enjoy listening to it. But it's hard to list someone among my favorites on the basis of two arias!


Probably the most interesting legacy we can enjoy of Franz Völker is this recording:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Jobis said:


> Domingo is a lyric.
> 
> A lot of good heldentenors didn't even make that list.
> 
> Siegfried Jerusalem, Max Lorenz, James King


Max Lorenz is in the post immediately before yours and yes when did Domingo become a heldentenor ? Same goes for Jon Vickers .


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Melchior was an incredible singer with a voice that was probably a one-off in the history of singing.

Windgassen was certainly the most hard working tenor who made up for not having a huge voice by his musicianship. 

Vickers is certainly the best Wagner singer of his generation although I know not everyone likes the tone he produces. He never did siegfried and turned down Karajan's offer of Tristan till he felt ready for it.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Melchior was an incredible singer with a voice that was probably a one-off in the history of singing.
> 
> Windgassen was certainly the most hard working tenor who made up for not having a huge voice by his musicianship.
> 
> Vickers is certainly the best Wagner singer of his generation although I know not everyone likes the tone he produces. He never did siegfried and turned down Karajan's offer of Tristan till he felt ready for it.


Vickers was a law unto himself. He refused to sing Erik at Bayreuth in 1965 and then goes and sings it at the MET in 1965.
He offered Covent Garden , Salzburg(Karajan) and the MET the Götterdämmerung Siegfried, non of whom accepted. They all wanted both. Therefore he never sang it. He studied and learned Walther In 1957, but never sang the role on stage. There are two recordings of him as Walther in act 3 with Kubelik conducting! the scene with Sachs and Eva, and the quintet, that makes one ache for more. 
Vickers was always his own man, he would only sing a role when he was ready to do it.
He should have sung Otello at CG in 1962, but the feud with Solti was so entrenched, that he only sang the role with CG on tour in Manchester in 1964, but in the main house, not until the 70s.
his first Parsifal at CG was in 1959 under Kempe, but it took 20 more years before he sang it at the MET.
He was the finest Tristan of all along with Melchior, his Parsifal was ....just the best, and his Siegmund..........well, I am biased!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

moody said:


> Max Lorenz is in the post immediately before yours and yes when did Domingo become a heldentenor ? Same goes for Jon Vickers .


...about the same time as Kaufmann it seems :lol:

Now that this thread has got me thinking about it, who are today's bona fide heldentenors?
I can only think of Stuart Skelton as being good enough to be listed among the world's Alfredos and Rodolfos.
I've gone blank. I can think of a lot of pseudo-heldentenors who were unsuited for Siegmund etc.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

Jobis said:


> Domingo is a lyric.
> 
> A lot of good heldentenors didn't even make that list.
> 
> Siegfried Jerusalem, Max Lorenz, James King


I thought Domingo was a spinto.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

marinasabina said:


> I thought Domingo was a spinto.


That's what Domingo thought too, unfortunately.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Couac Addict said:


> ...about the same time as Kaufmann it seems :lol:
> 
> Now that this thread has got me thinking about it, who are today's bona fide heldentenors?
> I can only think of Stuart Skelton as being good enough to be listed among the world's Alfredos and Rodolfos.
> I've gone blank. I can think of a lot of pseudo-heldentenors who were unsuited for Siegmund etc.


In fact there have been few real heldentenors through history ,Melchior and Volker are prime examples.
Heldentenor of course means Heroic Tenor, Helge Roswaenge could have been,but although he appeared in Parsifal that seems to be about it.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

*Heinrich Knote* was also a celebrated Heldentenor during the first decades of the 20th century.






Though arguably the most outstanding Wagnerian tenor of his generation was the Dutch *Jacques Urlus*:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

3 years later, who are the true heldentenors of today? I know of Stuart Skelton, Robert Dean Smith, Torsten Kerl, Stefan Vinke, Stephen Gould, Andreas Schager, & Gary Lehman, but have never heard any of them live. How do they stack up? Is there someone better?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

For me still Kaufmann.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> For me still Kaufmann.


Personally I wouldn't consider him a heldentenor, but that's just me. Once we hear his Siegfried, Tristan, & Tannhauser I'll reevaluate lol. & let me add that i really like Kaufmann, but its not his fach...yet at least


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Personally I wouldn't consider him a heldentenor, but that's just me. Once we hear his Siegfried, Tristan, & Tannhauser I'll reevaluate lol. & let me add that i really like Kaufmann, but its not his fach...yet at least


I know what you mean and yes I would love to hear his Tristan.
( Peter Hoffman still my favourite)


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Pugg said:


> I know what you mean and yes I would love to hear his Tristan.
> ( Peter Hoffman still my favourite)


I was just looking at his schedule & he's doing Otello this year. That's a monster role for true heldens. I'll be looking forward to hearing how that goes!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Set Svanholm for sure (I count Vinay more as a baritone).


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> 3 years later, who are the true heldentenors of today? I know of Stuart Skelton, Robert Dean Smith, Torsten Kerl, Stefan Vinke, Stephen Gould, Andreas Schager, & Gary Lehman, but have never heard any of them live. How do they stack up? Is there someone better?


Of those I've only heart Stuart Skelton and Stephen Gould live, the former as Siegmund at the Met and the latter as Siegfried at the Met and Tristan at ROH. Stephen Gould as Tristan is one of the best performances I have ever heard. Whatever category one puts Jonas Kaufmann in, his Parsifals were also amazing to experience (seen at the Met).

There was a discussion on this recently in another thread. It started somewhere around here:



mountmccabe said:


> I'm not going to claim that current singers are the same, or have the same things to recommend them as those great singers of the past. But the conversation cannot be had without names. For some of these roles, I think the two best options for the current era or so, with operabase links, are:
> 
> Stephen Gould. On CD: Tristan and Siegfried in Siegfried for Janowski, and both Siegfrieds for Thielemann for both Bayreuth and Wiener Staatsoper. At Bayreuth currently he's Tristan (including the recent DVD release in Wagner's new production). [And, as for all of the current singers at Bayreuth, I mean at least 2016 and on schedule for 2017].
> 
> ...


This was followed up with clips of each of these people singing, along with Heldentenors (and related) of the past.

I would really love to hear Andreas Schager live. Same with Stefan Vinke, though that's more built on hoping his voice has developed further than anything else.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I would really love to hear Andreas Schager live.


I heard him sing Siegfried in Act 1 when Lance Ryan failed to turn up in Berlin for the Barenboim Ring. He stood at the side and sang while one of the crew marked the part while dressed as Siegfried. He was o.k. but I wasn't blown away. Certainly he was light years better than Ryan, I was disappointed he turned up at all.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Do we have any real heldentenors today? Kaufmann maybe - but another voice of the dark timbre and power the term usually implies? There are singers who can manage the big Wagner roles whose voices I wouldn't call "heroic." Windgassen was one of these - a fine artist, but not a Melchior/Vinay/Vickers/King sort of voice.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Do we have any real heldentenors today? Kaufmann maybe - but another voice of the dark timbre and power the term usually implies? There are singers who can manage the big Wagner roles whose voices I wouldn't call "heroic." Windgassen was one of these - a fine artist, but not a Melchior/Vinay/Vickers/King sort of voice.


Kaufmann may have the timbre associated with a heldentenor, but if he isn't capable of singing Tristan, Siegfried, & Tannhauser can we really call him one? One of the hallmarks of being a heldentenor is having the strength & stamina to sing those beastly roles & have your voice live to tell about it...along with the timbre & power


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Kaufmann may have the timbre associated with a heldentenor, but if he isn't capable of singing Tristan, Siegfried, & Tannhauser can we really call him one? One of the hallmarks of being a heldentenor is having the strength & stamina to sing those beastly roles & have your voice live to tell about it...along with the timbre & power


Well, he's unproven as yet. He has said he feels capable of Tristan but has put it off because everyone would want him to sing it constantly. I hope he shows us what he's capable of.

Not all heldentenors can maintain vocal quality through a career of singing those roles. Melchior was a freak of nature whose vocal strength lasted virtually to the end of his life. Max Lorenz's voice, on the other hand, had a definite prime and suffered a good bit of wear. Vickers lasted long by choosing his excursions into Wagner carefully. I gather that Ramon Vinay went back to singing baritone.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Kaufmann may have the timbre associated with a heldentenor, but if he isn't capable of singing Tristan, Siegfried, & Tannhauser can we really call him one? One of the hallmarks of being a heldentenor is having the strength & stamina to sing those beastly roles & have your voice live to tell about it...along with the timbre & power


Just be a bit patient and all come well, he's very choosy about his roles and becoming more careful toward his voice.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> Stephen Gould as Tristan is one of the best performances I have ever heard.


I second that. Unless Kaufmann starts singing Tristan, I don't see who could replace him right now..


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

interestedin said:


> I second that. Unless Kaufmann starts singing Tristan, I don't see who could replace him right now..


Gould is damn good


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Gould is damn good


I saw that one, still not sure, his voice sounds unsteady ( for me that is)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Gould is damn good


To me he sounds stiff and dull, with an unremarkable timbre, inexpressive German diction, and the slowish vibrato that comes from a pushed vocal production.

We don't have turn to Lauritz Melchior for the needed contrast. Here's a forgotten tenor I just discovered, recorded in the 1930s:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> To me he sounds stiff and dull, with an unremarkable timbre, inexpressive German diction, and the slowish vibrato that comes from a pushed vocal production.
> 
> We don't have turn to Lauritz Melchior for the needed contrast. Here's a forgotten tenor I just discovered, recorded in the 1930s:


IMHO Gould has the goods. He may not be Melchior, but I think his reputation at Bayreuth tells us just how highly regarded this singer is. He's been the Bayreuth Tristan for the last 3 years. He's also sung both Siegfried's & Tannhauser there more than once. Like him or not, he's probably the #1 heldentenor in the world right now.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> To me he sounds stiff and dull, with an unremarkable timbre, inexpressive German diction, and the slowish vibrato that comes from a pushed vocal production.
> 
> We don't have turn to Lauritz Melchior for the needed contrast. Here's a forgotten tenor I just discovered, recorded in the 1930s:


Woodduck, from the comments it would appear that we are hearing this clip at the wrong speed. It certainly sounds a bit weird! I have heard Larsen-Todsen before and she didn't sound as contraltoish as this.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

Bonetan said:


> Gould is damn good


Admittedly he doesn't come across so well in the video with Foster.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

interestedin said:


> Admittedly he doesn't come across so well in the video with Foster.


Hideous production. The four-way wrestling match that ensues when T & I meet in the garden is laughable, and the yelling that passes for singing makes it even worse. Evelyn Herlitzius has no business attempting Isolde. She looks like a raving maniac and her ghastly wobble makes Gould sound better than he is by contrast. The Brangaene shows them both up vocally.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Impressive forging song from Schager, this year's Bayreuth Parsifal:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

I finally got to hear Mr. Schager live this weekend as Siegfried, & MY GOODNESS! He is now my favorite active singer. The power, the stamina, the acting, & his exuberance on stage, were all things to behold. I've never heard a singer breeze through that role the way he did. I consider it a great privilege to have heard him live.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> I finally got to hear Mr. Schager live this weekend as Siegfried, & MY GOODNESS! He is now my favorite active singer. The power, the stamina, the acting, & his exuberance on stage, were all things to behold. I've never heard a singer breeze through that role the way he did. I consider it a great privilege to have heard him live.


I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing him at the Met's Ring cycle this spring.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing him at the Met's Ring cycle this spring.


I think you will be in for a treat!


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

1) James King
2) Set Svanholm
3) Lautritz Melchior
4) Ramon Vinay
5) Jon Vickers


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Has the execrable Lance Ryan finally chucked the Wagner rôle for which he was particularly unsuited, i.e. Siegfried? Although I see he is scheduled to essay Tannhäuser next year in Wiesbaden. Unlucky for some!!


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Pretty sure it's no longer realistic to expect that Kaufmann will ever enter the heldentenor ranks. If anything, his attempts at Radames and Otello tell me that he is at most a light lirico, albeit with an unusual baritonal timbre. 

When your Otello is less convincing than Pavarotti's....


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Pretty sure it's no longer realistic to expect that Kaufmann will ever enter the heldentenor ranks. If anything, his attempts at Radames and Otello tell me that he is at most a light lirico, albeit with an unusual baritonal timbre.
> 
> When your Otello is less convincing than Pavarotti's....


Heldentenor, no. But light lyric, also no.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Heldentenor, no. But light lyric, also no.


:lol: ok, I may have been exaggerating a little bit. Still, that Otello was a huge disappointment--it really exposed the lack of squillo and intensity. It also made me think he should stick to verismo and Puccini along with the lighter Wagner roles, and should stop flirting with trying a Tristan.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> :lol: ok, I may have been exaggerating a little bit. Still, that Otello was a huge disappointment--it really exposed the lack of squillo and intensity. It also made me think he should stick to verismo and Puccini along with the lighter Wagner roles, and should stop flirting with trying a Tristan.


Is he still talking about doing a full Tristan?? That would be the end of him...he should follow your suggestion imo


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Is he still talking about doing a full Tristan?? That would be the end of him...he should follow your suggestion imo


I saw his Act 2 with the BSO, and while I don't think that it's a good fit for him, he might be able to get away with it with a sensitive conductor and Bayreuth's covered pit. He may not be an ideal Tristan, but he's certainly more musical than most of the impostors who've been singing the role for the past couple of decades.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> :lol: ok, I may have been exaggerating a little bit. Still, that Otello was a huge disappointment--it really exposed the lack of squillo and intensity. It also made me think he should stick to verismo and Puccini along with the lighter Wagner roles, and *should stop flirting with trying a Tristan.*


With some regret I tend to agree. Whatever your other qualities, you have to be able to ride and penetrate Wagner's orchestra. Wagner talked in later years of thinning out _Tristan_'s orchestration a bit (_Parsifal_ shows how), but he never got around to it. Kaufmann is one of the best tenors we have at the moment who isn't an actual "light lyric," an intelligent artist with a cleanly focused voice possessing the rich coloration so suited to Wagner, and I agree with wkasimer in wanting to give him a chance, perhaps at Bayreuth where the acoustic is favorable to the singers. It's a pity we have to choose between him and a louder but more limited and less musical singer such as Andreas Schager. From what I've heard of them, I would choose Kaufmann without hesitation in any music within the capabilities of both.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> It's a pity we have to choose between him and a louder but more limited and less musical singer such as Andreas Schager. From what I've heard of them, I would choose Kaufmann without hesitation in any music within the capabilities of both.


We have 2 contributors here, passionate opera lovers both, who have heard Schager live & both regard him as the most impressive singer they have heard in their lives. How many people here say that about Kaufmann? It's no pity at all!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I'll add my tuppenceworth here regarding Schager. When I went to Berlin in 2013 for Barenboims 200th anniversary Ring, Lance Ryan was due to sing Siegfried. The tale has been told before about his no show for Act 1 of Siegfried. Schager, who was due to sing later that evening in, and I'm not 100% sure about this, Die Zaüberflöte at another theatre stepped in and sang the part from the wings while one of the production assistants pantomimed the part in full costume on stage. Frankly, given what followed in Acts 2 and 3, I'd have been happy to let Herr Schager continue from the wings!! He wasn't the finished article by any means but his voice was light years better than Mr. Ryan's.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> :lol: ok, I may have been exaggerating a little bit. Still, that Otello was a huge disappointment--it really exposed the lack of squillo and intensity. It also made me think he should stick to verismo and Puccini along with the lighter Wagner roles, and should stop flirting with trying a Tristan.


It's like you said. I think this role is just not for him...

http://seenandheard-international.c...os-are-magnificent-in-the-staatsopers-otello/


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> It's like you said. I think this role is just not for him...
> 
> http://seenandheard-international.c...os-are-magnificent-in-the-staatsopers-otello/


That reviewer needs to take a writing course.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Heldentenor, no. But light lyric, also no.


yup. there is no such thing as a light lyric tenor who sounds like a baritone. I think his current classification of spinto tenor is fine. it would be interesting if opera had more music for "baritenor"-like voices the way it does for certain roles that flirt the line between soprano and mezzo, but as things stand, he's best off in the spinto rep.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> That reviewer needs to take a writing course.


Agreed lol. But of all the reviewers that I read he has become my favorite. He seems to give the most consistently comprehensive reviews


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> It's a pity we have to choose between him and a louder but more limited and less musical singer such as Andreas Schager. From what I've heard of them, I would choose Kaufmann without hesitation in any music within the capabilities of both.


I finally heard Schager this week as Siegfried at the Met. And he was indeed very, very impressive. His voice is quite large and really cuts through the orchestration in a way that Kaufmann's simply doesn't. He has unbelievable stamina, sounding better in Siegfried Act 3 than he did in Act 1. That said, he still sounded damn good in Act 1, and sang a terrific Forging Scene - he even nailed all of the hammer taps. This was one of the rare occasions when Brunnhilde didn't outsing her Siegfried in Act 3 - far from it. And he really managed to sound like a baritone at the end of Gotterdammerung Act 1, when masquerading as Gunther.

Some minor cavils - he tends to push so hard that his top tends to push a bit sharp, his vibrato is a little more prominent and wide than I prefer, and he doesn't have the same level of musical polish that Kaufmann possesses. But I think that Schager's instrument is infinitely better suited to Wagner's tenor roles. It's a pity that Schager's young Siegfried wasn't broadcast.

The rest of the RING cast was nearly impressive. Schager was the real star of the show, but both Volle and Goerke were excellent both vocally and dramatically. Volle struggled a bit in Act 2 of Walkure - the music lies quite low for a baritone - but on the other hand, he had no trouble at all with the Wanderer's higher tessitura. Both he and Goerke are excellent actors as well as fine singers. I'm not a huge fan of Konieczny's basic timbre, but it's a big voice that's very plausible for Alberich.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

5 pages and not a single mention of Alberto Remedios!

Here he is with Rita Hunter from act 1 of Gotterdammerung conducted by Charles Mackerras (in German.)






...the forging scene from Siegfried (in English)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> 5 pages and not a single mention of Alberto Remedios!
> 
> Here he is with Rita Hunter from act 1 of Gotterdammerung conducted by Charles Mackerras (in German.)
> 
> ...


Remedios has a lovely voice - no beefy tone, no wide vibrato - but I can't say that he sounds heroic. He must have volume and stamina, though, or he wouldn't be singing Siegfried, and his youthful timbre wouldn't be unwelcome in _Siegfried._

(That _Gotterdammerung_ duet is the slowest I've ever heard. It's lovely to hear all the musical lines emerge so expressively, but it's a bit lacking in oomph.)


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

You leave me wondering what exactly 'heroic' constitutes.

Incidentally, there are some extended excerpts on YouTube from Tristan (auf Deutsch.)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> You leave me wondering what exactly 'heroic' constitutes.
> 
> Incidentally, there are some extended excerpts on YouTube from Tristan (auf Deutsch.)


That would be hard to explain. Words like "heft," "weight," "ring" and "declamatory force" come to mind. There's something genteel about Remedios; he'd sound very suitable as Faust or Rodolfo. In Wagner I'd peg him as more of a Parsifal than a Siegfried, at least in Gotterdammerung. But I don't deny he's pleasant to listen to, which can't be said of a lot of weightier voices.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Having seen him do a complete Ring, I don't remember any sense of something missing particularly in Siegfried. Admittedly after listening to excerpts from Fidelio and Peter Grimes, he doesn't quite have the force of Vickers but Vickers does sometimes seem a bit overwhelming. Personally I think that anyone who can get through Siegfried or Tristan and not sound like they were about to expire, probably deserves to be called a heldentenor. Perhaps we need two terms with heldenbaritenor for the more traditional types!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Germans have a term "Jugend Heldentenor." I'd imagine Remedios an effective Lohengrin, which calls for more sweetness and lyricism than most heldentenors can muster.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The Germans have a term "Jugend Heldentenor." I'd imagine Remedios an effective Lohengrin, which calls for more sweetness and lyricism than most heldentenors can muster.


The amusing part about that term is that 'jugend' is exactly what Siegfried is supposed to be!!


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> I finally heard Schager this week as Siegfried at the Met. And he was indeed very, very impressive. His voice is quite large and really cuts through the orchestration in a way that Kaufmann's simply doesn't. He has unbelievable stamina, sounding better in Siegfried Act 3 than he did in Act 1. That said, he still sounded damn good in Act 1, and sang a terrific Forging Scene - he even nailed all of the hammer taps. This was one of the rare occasions when Brunnhilde didn't outsing her Siegfried in Act 3 - far from it. And he really managed to sound like a baritone at the end of Gotterdammerung Act 1, when masquerading as Gunther.
> 
> Some minor cavils - he tends to push so hard that his top tends to push a bit sharp, his vibrato is a little more prominent and wide than I prefer, and he doesn't have the same level of musical polish that Kaufmann possesses. But I think that Schager's instrument is infinitely better suited to Wagner's tenor roles. It's a pity that Schager's young Siegfried wasn't broadcast.
> 
> The rest of the RING cast was nearly impressive. Schager was the real star of the show, but both Volle and Goerke were excellent both vocally and dramatically. Volle struggled a bit in Act 2 of Walkure - the music lies quite low for a baritone - but on the other hand, he had no trouble at all with the Wanderer's higher tessitura. Both he and Goerke are excellent actors as well as fine singers. I'm not a huge fan of Konieczny's basic timbre, but it's a big voice that's very plausible for Alberich.


I'm so glad you got to hear him! I'd been looking forward to reading what you thought of him


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Becca said:


> 5 pages and not a single mention of Alberto Remedios!


Neglect on my part. He's my favorite Siegfried on record, after Melchior. That said, as great a Wagnerian as he was, I don't think that I'd describe his voice as Heldentenor, any more than I would others like Domingo, Heppner, or Kaufmann. In fact, when I use the term "Heldentenor" in a non-Melchior context, it's almost a pejorative - a beefy, baritonal sound, often in the hands of a musical Philistine. Remedios certainly does not fit that description in any way; he approaches Wagner as a lyric tenor, not as a Heldentenor powerhouse.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> The rest of the RING cast was nearly impressive. Schager was the real star of the show, but both Volle and Goerke were excellent both vocally and dramatically. Volle struggled a bit in Act 2 of Walkure - the music lies quite low for a baritone - but on the other hand, he had no trouble at all with the Wanderer's higher tessitura. Both he and Goerke are excellent actors as well as fine singers. I'm not a huge fan of Konieczny's basic timbre, but it's a big voice that's very plausible for Alberich.


Between Goerke, Konieczny, Volle, & Schager how would you rank them in terms of largest voice?


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Bonetan said:


> Between Goerke, Konieczny, Volle, & Schager how would you rank them in terms of largest voice?


Schager first, Konieczny a close second, and Volle and Goerke tied for third. But I thought that in terms of sheer vocal size, hardly anyone in the entire cycle was less than adequate, except possibly for Norbert Ernst as Loge. That's a lot more than I can say for the cast in 2012, when I thought that only Hans-Peter König was the only legitimate Wagnerian on the stage.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

On the note of Alberto Remedios, I love that his son, Richard, is the one who posted those earlier videos and is actively keeping Alberto's memory alive. Some great insights in his comments too, so I'd recommend perusing his channel and listening to the various recordings.

I count myself as a Remedios fanboy and adore his interpretations of Wagnerian roles. He certainly doesn't fit the standard mould of a heldentenor, at least in timbre, but his luxuriously _rich _tone and lyricism make sure his voice fit nonetheless. I can imagine his voice suiting a lot of roles, except perhaps for anything involving coloratura.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Everyone's favorite heldentenor, Klaus Florian Vogt, is back at it singing Tannhauser, & once again he has all of the technique & volume that one could want, but the color is all wrong 

http://seenandheard-international.c...tisfying-production-of-tannhauser/#more-87023

It's only a matter of time before we get him as Tristan & Siegfried. I know all of you can hardly contain your excitement :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Everyone's favorite heldentenor, Klaus Florian Vogt, is back at it singing Tannhauser, & once again he has all of the technique & volume that one could want, but the color is all wrong
> 
> http://seenandheard-international.c...tisfying-production-of-tannhauser/#more-87023
> 
> It's only a matter of time before we get him as Tristan & Siegfried. I know all of you can hardly contain your excitement :lol:


This will be the chamber orchestra version, right?


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I'm pretty sure I commented on Herr Vogt before. He has the ideal voice for Loge, Erik and Walter and maybe Lohengrin at a push and that's yer lot. Not enough weight for the other parts and as for Siegfried! Laughable.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> I'm pretty sure I commented on Herr Vogt before. He has the ideal voice for Loge, Erik and Walter and maybe Lohengrin at a push and that's yer lot. Not enough weight for the other parts and as for Siegfried! Laughable.


Based on the recordings and broadcasts I've heard, I'd consider him suitable for Froh and perhaps the Steersman in Dutchman. There's not enough metal in the voice for Erik, Lohengrin, or Stolzing, and he's not interesting enough to sing Loge.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

wkasimer said:


> Based on the recordings and broadcasts I've heard, I'd consider him suitable for Froh and perhaps the Steersman in Dutchman. There's not enough metal in the voice for Erik, Lohengrin, or Stolzing, and he's not interesting enough to sing Loge.


Cruel, but fair!!:lol:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

wkasimer said:


> Based on the recordings and broadcasts I've heard, I'd consider him suitable for Froh and perhaps the Steersman in Dutchman. There's not enough metal in the voice for Erik, Lohengrin, or Stolzing, and he's not interesting enough to sing Loge.


Hahahahahaha brutal!!! :lol:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I was really happy with KFV last night as Tannhäuser. I think the role has a lot of places where his voice shines. The clarity of his voice was impressive, and it was just constantly pleasant to listen to.

I agree that Tristan and Siegfried are perhaps not ideal roles for his voice, but I wouldn't avoid hearing him. I imagine he would sound wonderful in significant passages, like say, act 3 of Götterdämmerung, or the end of act 2 of Tristan.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> I was really happy with KFV last night as Tannhäuser. I think the role has a lot of places where his voice shines. The clarity of his voice was impressive, and it was just constantly pleasant to listen to.
> 
> I agree that Tristan and Siegfried are perhaps not ideal roles for his voice, but I wouldn't avoid hearing him. I imagine he would sound wonderful in significant passages, like say, act 3 of Götterdämmerung, or the end of act 2 of Tristan.


Such a fascinating singer. Unless I'm mistaken, everyone I know who has heard him live has enjoyed his singing...


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I was really happy with KFV last night as Tannhäuser. I think the role has a lot of places where his voice shines. The clarity of his voice was impressive, and it was just constantly pleasant to listen to.
> 
> I agree that Tristan and Siegfried are perhaps not ideal roles for his voice, but I wouldn't avoid hearing him. I imagine he would sound wonderful in significant passages, like say, act 3 of Götterdämmerung, or the end of act 2 of Tristan.


This is the thing, he achieves what so many Wagner singers fail at, which is singing beautifully _and _audibly! If I saw KFV billed for roles traditionally deemed too heavy for him, I'd happily attend anyway because I know he would deliver an enjoyable performance. There isn't any of that straining, grunting, wide vibrato and other such things I see in other heldens. He also tends to look the part.

Bonetan's right, he's an extreme case of a voice that records badly but is great in-house. I think he suits Lohengrin very well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, here he is in Castellucci's "WTF" production.


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## JB Henson (Mar 29, 2019)

The guy who made this poll all those years ago must REALLY hate Rene Kollo and Jess Thomas.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Well, here he is in Castellucci's "WTF" production.


:lol: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I imagine he would sound wonderful in significant passages, like say, act 3 of Götterdämmerung, or the end of act 2 of Tristan.


You might imagine so, but I think from available evidence that he would be pretty awful:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Such a fascinating singer. Unless I'm mistaken, everyone I know who has heard him live has enjoyed his singing...


"Fascinating" is not a word that Vogt's sweet choirboy tenor, or anything I've ever heard him do with it, brings to mind. Everybody says he's "loud enough." Well, if he weren't, he wouldn't be hired, would he? Is that anyone's definition of "heldentenor"?

It occurs to me that Vogt is valued precisely as an _anti-heldentenor,_ and that his career in these roles is precisely a product of regietheater, where directors are interested not in presenting an opera but in "deconstructing" and "interpreting" it. In Wagner's case this invariably entails stripping his male protagonists of any suggestion of the _hero,_ a type of human now thought not to exist. There is apparently enough of the lonely, persecuted, lost soul in Wagner's protagonists to allow a director to get away with making vulnerability their defining characteristic, and Vogt's voice, which can convey vulnerability and innocence but little else, seems to be just the thing. This works all right for the young Parsifal, but Parsifal grows up into a mature man of experience, dignity and power right before our eyes and ears. In the collapsed time dimension of myth, he may enter Klingsor's garden as Ian Bostridge, but he leaves it as Jon Vickers. Kundry could eat Vogt alive.

To accept Vogt as an adequate Tannhauser, Lohengrin, Siegmund or Parsifal (all roles he sings), we pretty much have to pretend that Wagner didn't create the larger-than-life characters he did in words and music, and accept the emasculated conceptions of talentless, smartypants directors like Neuenfels and Castellucci, who now seem to own the opera houses of Germany.

Here's a bit more for fans of low testosterone to try to justify:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> "Fascinating" is not a word that Vogt's sweet choirboy tenor, or anything I've ever heard him do with it, brings to mind. Everybody says he's "loud enough." Well, if he weren't, he wouldn't be hired, would he? Is that anyone's definition of "heldentenor"?


For me at least, he's the most fascinating singer in the field. Has any singer been so divisive in recent times? When I ask someone what they think of him I have no idea what to expect, but the separator always seems to be whether a person has heard him live...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> For me at least, he's the most fascinating singer in the field. Has any singer been so divisive in recent times? When I ask someone what they think of him I have no idea what to expect, but the separator always seems to be whether a person has heard him live...


Divisive = fascinating? The only thing sort of fascinating is the fact that, with recordings of more vocally suitable and artistically interesting singers available, some people think Vogt is right for these roles. I can only comprehend it in the terms I've suggested above: he's employed precisely because he cuts the characters he portrays down to size, and turns the tragic hero into the nice but mixed up boy next door.

Hearing him live may flatter his reedy voice a bit (the reediness may be less apparent), but it won't turn a Tamino into a Siegmund or a Parsifal. It's a severely limited voice, incapable of anything beyond minimal expressiveness, never mind heroic thrust and ring. In climactic passages he simply has no room to maneuver. Listen to how pathetic this is:






Compare the real thing:











Not to mention:


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Divisive = fascinating? The only thing sort of fascinating is the fact that, with recordings of more vocally suitable and artistically interesting singers available, some people think Vogt is right for these roles. I can only comprehend it in the terms I've suggested above: he's employed precisely because he cuts the characters he portrays down to size, and turns the tragic hero into the nice but mixed up boy next door.
> 
> Hearing him live may flatter his reedy voice a bit (the reediness may be less apparent), but it won't turn a Tamino into a Siegmund or a Parsifal. It's a severely limited voice, incapable of anything beyond minimal expressiveness, never mind heroic thrust and ring. In climactic passages he simply has no room to maneuver.


Yes, for me the divisiveness is very fascinating. I've asked experienced Wagnerian singers & coaches who have worked with him & heard very positive things. & others like yourself think he is a complete disgrace. To me this is totally fascinating! I suppose the truth of what he is as an artist lies somewhere in the middle...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> Yes, for me the divisiveness is very fascinating. I've asked experienced Wagnerian singers & coaches who have worked with him & heard very positive things. & others like yourself think he is a complete disgrace. To me this is totally fascinating! I suppose the truth of what he is as an artist lies somewhere in the middle...


I don't know what those "experienced" people claim to see and hear. What _we_ can see and hear are numerous recordings and videos featuring some of the wimpiest singing imaginable.





















The "truth of what he is as an artist" is right there. If standards fall any farther we may as well put these operas on the shelf and subsist on a diet of Mozart, Rossini and Handel. We have _countertenors_ who sound manlier than Vogt!


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> You might imagine so, but I think from available evidence that he would be pretty awful:


That's not an act. I can't tell what recording that is from, or if there is more. I was thinking most specifically of his narration before he is stabbed, which many Siegfrieds don't know what to do with, in part because they're struggling to get there.

The parts Wagner wrote are quite broad. Again, I'm not pushing for KFV to sing either Siegfried. I'm not sure what he'd bring to the forging song, for example. But I don't doubt he could sing the roles, and I know there are parts he'd really bring something to that many brawlers and bruisers blow through.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> We have _countertenors_ who sound manlier than Vogt!


This statement doesn't make any sense to me. My view of masculinity isn't that narrow, and I don't think there's call for that with Wagner's tenor roles either.

After actually hearing Klaus Florian Vogt the other night I don't understand coming out of that performance calling him an "angelic choir boy." He was powerful, intense, and commanding, when called for.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Hey now, he's a wimpy-sounding Wagner singer who sounds much less wimpy in-house. I was a hater before I saw him last year! And ultimately a singers live sound is what matters the most in opera. The voice is quite beautiful, carries very well, and he clearly has stamina and technique to sing Wagner long-term without harming himself, nor the audience. Not that that's the standard for a great singer of course, but it's certainly relevant, especially for a composer who's famous for destroying voices. And the question of masculinity didn't really occur to me when I heard him, despite my preconceptions going in.

No one's taking Vogt for a world-class interpreter of Wagner, so comparing him to the great recordings of the past, from singers whose voices, as we've established, recorded better than Vogt, is obviously going to miss the mark. But, to my mind, he doesn't deserve all the **** he gets, and I'd easily take Vogt before most of the other heldentenors who are currently operating. These singers might have a more overt masculinity, but the advantages this brings are immediately cancelled out by the general unpleasantness of their voices. Though maybe they too sound better live, who knows.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I still can't get over Melchior being in _joint_ second place!

What are your ears made of TCers???!!!



N.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I don't know what those "experienced" people claim to see and hear. What _we_ can see and hear are numerous recordings and videos featuring some of the wimpiest singing imaginable.
> 
> The "truth of what he is as an artist" is right there. If standards fall any farther we may as well put these operas on the shelf and subsist on a diet of Mozart, Rossini and Handel. We have _countertenors_ who sound manlier than Vogt!


Whatever it is, apparently it must be experienced in the house. I've heard from far too many people that he's an impressive singer in the house for me to dismiss him. & like Joe said, how a singer sounds live is far more important than how they sound on recordings...


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

The Conte said:


> I still can't get over Melchior being in _joint_ second place!
> 
> What are your ears made of TCers???!!!
> 
> ...


Behind Kauffman no less, who shouldn't even be part of such a poll. The 6 of you should be ashamed of yourselves! :lol:


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> That's not an act. I can't tell what recording that is from, or if there is more. I was thinking most specifically of his narration before he is stabbed, which many Siegfrieds don't know what to do with, in part because they're struggling to get there.
> 
> The parts Wagner wrote are quite broad. Again, I'm not pushing for KFV to sing either Siegfried. I'm not sure what he'd bring to the forging song, for example. But I don't doubt he could sing the roles, and I know there are parts he'd really bring something to that many brawlers and bruisers blow through.


I think the excerpt is more than ample to judge. "Brunnhilde, heilige Braut" is, to me, the emotional peak of the entire cycle. Ecstatic, tragic, a moment suffused with almost overwhelming passion. If your artistic approach to this moment is to sing this like this--pretty and light and absent any intensity or emotion--I think it's fair to say I have zero interest in listening to any more of this. I like sweet sounding voices as much as the next guy but this is just abysmal.

And listen to how much the orchestra has to hold back to accommodate this voice--this sounds more like Zauberflote than Gotterdammerung.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> And listen to how much the orchestra has to hold back to accommodate this voice--this sounds more like Zauberflote than Gotterdammerung.


From all I've heard regarding Vogt there is never a need to hold back the orchestra unless its by design. He doesn't lack for power...


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> From all I've heard regarding Vogt there is never a need to hold back the orchestra unless its by design. He doesn't lack for power...


Listen to the clip I posted--






Perhaps they don't need to hold back. But even if they don't need to, they are, a lot.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> Listen to the clip I posted--
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya, I have no idea why they played it like that lol. But everything I've heard & read about KFV says the orchestra never has to hold back for him


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JoeSaunders said:


> No one's taking Vogt for a world-class interpreter of Wagner, so *comparing him to the great recordings of the past, from singers whose voices, as we've established, recorded better than Vogt, is obviously going to miss the mark.* But, to my mind, he doesn't deserve all the **** he gets, and I'd easily take Vogt before most of the other heldentenors who are currently operating. These singers might have a more overt masculinity, but the advantages this brings are immediately cancelled out by the general unpleasantness of their voices. Though maybe they too sound better live, who knows.


If comparing Vogt to real dramatic tenors who are actually up to Wagner's demands misses the mark, what is the mark? I could have posted more singers - James King, Jess Thomas, Wolfgang Windgassen, Ramon Vinay, just for starters - all of whom would have further exposed Vogt's inadequacies. How low is the bar? What should we expect of a singer who presumes to take on a role or a repertoire? We all have different expectations, no doubt, but Vogt doesn't come close to fulfilling mine or, I'll be bold enough to say, Wagner's.

The excerpt from _Parsifal_ I chose as a test case is virtually an encyclopedia of the vocal and dramatic requirements of a heldentenor. Here's Vogt doing all seven minutes of it:






As the clips of Vickers, Kaufmann and Melchior should make plain to anyone needing the comparison, Vogt clearly lacks the vocal capacity, and possibly the artistic imagination, to bring to this music the variety, color and intensity it requires. He can sing louder or softer, but that's about the extent of his interpretive arsenal; there's no variety of articulation, no legato, no portamento, only a minimal attempt to shade the voice and shape the phrases. And there is a simple lack of declamatory force.

Vogt may, by some magical intervention of the acoustics fairy, sound better live than he does through loudspeakers, but a live acoustic can't make a mediocre musician into a distinguished one.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

Well it's 2019 and I'm not going to lie - my expectations of Wagner singing are indeed low! My frame of reference is the current decade of singers, or active singers generally, and relative to that sample of heldentenors, I do think Vogt scores well when singing the roles he's suited to (which maxes out at Lohengrin, for me). If he's on the cast list for any of those parts, I'll happily attend. That's all, it's not the comparisons to great singers are altogether unfair or anything, even if they do disadvantage someone who records badly. The most pertinent question, for me, when discussing Vogt is, basically, does he deserve the hate he gets? He gets a _looot _of flak for sounding thin and wimpy, and I think _those _criticisms are unfair.

But yes, I do agree that his interpretive abilities can be quite one-dimensional. That is a very fair criticism, and it's obviously something that a good acoustic can't fix. But while a live acoustic can't make the musician better, it does make the instrument they're playing sound a lot nicer! I suspect this is where our preferences diverge, since I'm a sucker for a good instrument and tend to forgive interpretative lack of imagination - perhaps to my discredit.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JoeSaunders said:


> Well it's 2019 and I'm not going to lie - my expectations of Wagner singing are indeed low! My frame of reference is the current decade of singers, or active singers generally, and relative to that sample of heldentenors, I do think Vogt scores well when singing the roles he's suited to (which maxes out at Lohengrin, for me). If he's on the cast list for any of those parts, I'll happily attend. That's all, it's not the comparisons to great singers are altogether unfair or anything, even if they do disadvantage someone who records badly. The most pertinent question, for me, when discussing Vogt is, basically, does he deserve the hate he gets? He gets a _looot _of flak for sounding thin and wimpy, and I think _those _criticisms are unfair.
> 
> But yes, I do agree that his interpretive abilities can be quite one-dimensional. That is a very fair criticism, and it's obviously something that a good acoustic can't fix. But while a live acoustic can't make the musician better, it does make the instrument they're playing sound a lot nicer! I suspect this is where our preferences diverge, since I'm a sucker for a good instrument and tend to forgive interpretative lack of imagination - perhaps to my discredit.


I don't really know how much hate Vogt gets. I don't hate him. I merely find the enthusiasm for him baffling. If I hate anything it's the present state of opera which allows a nice-looking fellow with a sweet voice and no discernable musical personality to be marketed as a heldentenor. And here I thought Rene Kollo was the bottom of that barrel...

For reasons both logistical and financial, most of my "operagoing" has been at home, and my points of reference for Wagner performance for the past fifty-plus years have been recordings, of which many of my favorites are much older than fifty years. I don't expect to experience much opera in the theater in my remaining years, and given the present standards of singing and fashions in production which have turned Wagner in particular into a composer I barely recognize, I'll be content never to know how Vogt or anyone else sounds in the opera house. I was lucky enough to hear Birgit Nilsson at the Met in the early '70s, and I appreciate how even a great voice can sound even more impressive coming out of the person standing right there in front of you. Recordings put singers under a microscope, and some survive the test better than others. But those who can shine under that close up view will have to provide my measuring stick.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't really know how much hate Vogt gets. I don't hate him. I merely find the enthusiasm for him baffling. If I hate anything it's the present state of opera which allows a nice-looking fellow with a sweet voice and no discernable musical personality to be marketed as a heldentenor. And here I thought Rene Kollo was the bottom of that barrel...
> 
> For reasons both logistical and financial, most of my "operagoing" has been at home, and my points of reference for Wagner performance for the past fifty-plus years have been recordings, of which many of my favorites are much older than fifty years. I don't expect to experience much opera in the theater in my remaining years, and given the present standards of singing and fashions in production which have turned Wagner in particular into a composer I barely recognize, I'll be content never to know how Vogt or anyone else sounds in the opera house. I was lucky enough to hear Birgit Nilsson at the Met in the early '70s, and I appreciate how even a great voice can sound even more impressive coming out of the person standing right there in front of you. Recordings put singers under a microscope, and some survive the test better than others. But those who can shine under that close up view will have to provide my measuring stick.


I'm in much the same boat, but I also listen to broadcasts online from Bayreuth, Berlin Staatsoper, the Met and so forth, and I actually think the standards of Wagner singing is pretty high at the moment, higher than the 00s and the earlier part of this decade. Certainly high enough so I also find the prominence of Vogt baffling considering the much more satisfying singing I've heard from many other performers over the past few years.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> I'm in much the same boat, but I also listen to broadcasts online from Bayreuth, Berlin Staatsoper, the Met and so forth, and I actually think the standards of Wagner singing is pretty high at the moment, higher than the 00s and the earlier part of this decade. Certainly high enough so I also find the prominence of Vogt baffling considering the much more satisfying singing I've heard from many other performers over the past few years.


I hope you're right. I'm perpetually out of touch.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Vogt=promotion.....................


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Did you guys know that KFV has sung at Bayreuth every year since 2007? I didn't realize he'd been on that level for so long...btw he has sung Lohengrin, Parsifal, & Walther there


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## Telramund (May 20, 2019)

I just wish that there were more recordings in good quality of Vickers. His Tristan is just mesmerizing. The way he drags the long notes and his diction for a non German native is amazing.


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## Telramund (May 20, 2019)

Itullian said:


> Vogt=promotion.....................


I highly disagree with that statement! I got to hear him as Walther, Siegmund, Tannhäuser and Lohengrin. I would argue that his choirboy like voice is not fit for the more dramatic roles that need gravitas like Tannhäuser and Siegmund. However he fits perfectly for Walther and Lohengrin; so much tenderness in his voice, great diction, he really sound like an angel sent from Montsalvat.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Telramund said:


> I highly disagree with that statement! I got to hear him as Walther, Siegmund, Tannhäuser and Lohengrin. I would argue that his choirboy like voice is not fit for the more dramatic roles that need gravitas like Tannhäuser and Siegmund. However he fits perfectly for Walther and Lohengrin; so much tenderness in his voice, great diction, he really sound like an angel sent from Montsalvat.


Once again someone who has heard KFV live really enjoyed his singing. Its a consensus that's hard to ignore...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Telramund said:


> I just wish that there were more recordings in good quality of Vickers. His Tristan is just mesmerizing. The way he drags the long notes and his diction for a non German native is amazing.


Vickers put off Tristan till late in his career, otherwise we'd probably have several recordings of it, including possibly one from Bayreuth. Birgit Nilsson expressed regret that she got to sing the opera with him only a few times; they were the nearest thing in our lifetimes to the Flagstad-Melchior duo of the 1930s and '40s, and we've certainly had no such pair of heroic voices since. We can see them together in the 1973 Orange Festival video, where the performance transcends the poor recording quality. The deep mournfulness and animal intensity that were distinctive in Vickers' timbre, so suitable for such roles as Siegmund and Peter Grimes, were ideal for Tristan as well. I can't but think, with a sigh, that my one opportunity to experience _Tristan_ live - at the Met in 1972 - would have been a very much superior experience had Vickers, rather than Helge Brilioth (who lost his voice in Act 3), been Nilsson's partner.


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