# Mozart K466



## DavidA

Mozart's piano concerto no 20 K466 is certainly one of the finest works in the genre. It has been said that "It begins and ends with a shudder." Perhaps it is special to me as it was one of my late (pianist) father's favourites and I once bought him the Serkin/Szell recording (apparently unavailable now). Apparently Mozart played it at the first performance with little rehearsal as he was having to supervise the copyists!
The concerto was much admired by Beethoven who wrote cadenzas for it, as did Brahms and Clara Schumann. Beethoven once played it at a benefit concert for Mozart's widow - oh to have had a recording of it!
I have a stack of recordings of this concerto. But I wonder which recordings to the learned music lovers of TC rate of this concerto?


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## pcnog11

There are so many of choices. I used the second movement at my wedding - the "Romance" to the point before they change the tempo. I like Ashkenazy with the Philharmonia because of the tone colour. However, please check this one out by Jan Lisiecki. He play superbly especially the timing between notes. Great phrasing and poetic!


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## Pugg

pcnog11 said:


> There are so many of choices. I used the second movement at my wedding - the "Romance" to the point before they change the tempo. I like Ashkenazy with the Philharmonia because of the tone colour. However, please check this one out by Jan Lisiecki. He play superbly especially the timing between notes. Great phrasing and poetic!


The first time I see someone mention even name on this site besides my self. Wonderful player, but I would not want to be without: Perahia or Anda.


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## Animal the Drummer

For me Perahia's reading (which I also heard live) is a little too soft-grained for this tough music. I don't know Anda's version but, though I find his reading of one or two of the other concertos a bit po-faced, I suspect K466 would suit him. Brendel of course does it well, and a particular favourite of mine in this concerto is Richard Goode with the Orpheus Chamber Orch. Goode plays his own cadenza in the finale and I prefer it to Beethoven's!


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## pcnog11

Pugg said:


> The first time I see someone mention even name on this site besides my self. Wonderful player, but I would not want to be without: Perahia or Anda.


Jan recorded the concerto a few years ago before he becomes 20 - I think he is 21 this year. Amazing talent, I have seen his Beethoven PC no. 5 live in concert. Very dynamic, with lots of energy and dramatically execution. Of course, Perahia and Anda are golden standards!


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## tdc

I haven't listened to as many versions as the OP, but I like Brendel and Uchida.


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## Bettina

I like Argerich's version, with Abbado conducting the Orchestra Mozart. Intense, yet still graceful and elegant (especially in the slow movement).


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## hpowders

The performance by Alfred Brendel with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras is good.

But the most dramatic performance I know that gets to the heart of the music like no other, is the HIP collaboration with Malcolm Bilson, fortepiano and The English Baroque Soloists conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.


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## Guest

I have the Brendel/Marriner recording and the HIP Immerseel/Anima Eterna recording. I prefer the Brendel. One of my first classical music purchases, on the recommendation of a friend.


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## Pugg

tdc said:


> I haven't listened to as many versions as the OP, but I like Brendel and Uchida.


Nothing wrong with those two.


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## KenOC

I admit to being very fond of the Mozart piano concertos, at least the most popular ones, played by Richard Goode and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra. If I could keep only one set of these, they would be a good choice.

Here's the k.466.

https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concer...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=C0ZJ68MQTDTZHMJ0TCS8


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## Pugg

pcnog11 said:


> Jan recorded the concerto a few years ago before he becomes 20 - I think he is 21 this year. Amazing talent, I have seen his Beethoven PC no. 5 live in concert. Very dynamic, with lots of energy and dramatically execution. Of course, Perahia and Anda are golden standards!


If you ever come across his Chopin concertos , well worth trying.
Details:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product...ASIN=B00383YC1O&linkCode=as2&tag=janlisi0c-21


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## Marinera

hpowders said:


> The performance by Alfred Brendel with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras is good.
> 
> But the most dramatic performance I know that gets to the heart of the music like no other, is the HIP collaboration with Malcolm Bilson, fortepiano and The English Baroque Soloists conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.


In Gardiner/Bilson version I like orchestral part, it's got the right amount of oomph, but piano part is somewhat underwelming.. maybe it is just this particular instrument that I don't like and not the playing, I don't even know.


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## Marinera

I like Gulda/Abbado recording

I'll have to check Richard Goode's version


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## Vaneyes

As others have conveyed, Brendel.


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## hpowders

Marinera said:


> In Gardiner/Bilson version I like orchestral part, it's got the right amount of oomph, but piano part is somewhat underwelming.. maybe it is just this particular instrument that I don't like and not the playing, I don't even know.


That's because it's a fortepiano. Takes some getting used to. I find the entire Bilson/Gardiner performance convincingly dramatic, in this, Mozart's most operatic of piano concertos.


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## Vaneyes

hpowders said:


> That's because it's a fortepiano. Takes some getting used to. I find the entire Bilson/Gardiner performance convincingly dramatic, in this, Mozart's most operatic of piano concertos.


Bilson, for the most part, uses copies of the later fortepianos (Walter, Graf), which I think are approachable to non-HIP/HIL ears such as myself. Volume and key action are sophisticated compared to earlier versions, and octaves not too far from modern piano.

Good info at Wiki, including artists and their choice of period poison. :tiphat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortepiano


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## hpowders

Vaneyes said:


> Bilson, for the most part, uses copies of the later fortepianos (Walter, Graf), which I think are approachable to non-HIP/HIL ears such as myself. Volume and key action are sophisticated compared to earlier versions, and octaves not too far from modern piano.
> 
> Good info at Wiki, including artists and their choice of period poison. :tiphat:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortepiano


These days I favor HIP performances of the Mozart keyboard concertos.

While the entire Bilson/Gardiner survey is very good, in my opinion, Jos van Immerseel on fortepiano with Anima Eterna is even better.


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## shadowdancer

I do agree with a lot of the recommendations here and would like to point a rare, but nonetheless, great interpretation of this work:
Rec 1965


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## bharbeke

I have only heard the Brendel/Marriner recording, but I found that one to be fantastic.


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## realdealblues

This is probably my favorite Piano Concerto. I never tire of hearing it. I love literally over a hundred different Piano Concertos but this one just resonates with me on an extra level. I probably have well over 50 different recordings of it.

If you want really bold and powerful and dramatic I will echo the suggestions of *Alfred Brendel* but I will go with his later recording with *Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra* rather than his earlier recording with Sir Neville Marriner as I feel he was able to improve on his earlier rendition as well as the wonderful modern engineering captures Charles Mackerras's beautiful accompaniment to an even greater degree than what Marriner was able to give us.

On the other end of the spectrum *Clifford Curzon* and *Benjamin Britten with the English Chamber Orchestra* is amazingly refined and elegant and I would also put it in the must hear category with Brendel.

Somewhere between Brendel and Curzon I would put *Richard Goode with the Orcheus Chamber Orchestra* and *Rudolf Buchbinder and the Vienna Symphony*. Both are excellent and absolutely worth hearing.

I could probably go on and on. I wouldn't want to be without the lyrical beauty that belongs to *Murray Perahia* nor would I want to be without* Arthur Rubinstein's* warm and wonderfully crafted reading with Alfred Wallenstein that most would probably never give a listen to begin with. *Andras Schiff* with Sandor Vegh, *Geza Anda*, *Christian Zacharias* with David Zinman, *Rudolf Serkin* with George Szell...there's really a lot of wonderful ones out there.

But for must listens...I would start with *Brendel/Mackerras* and *Curzon/Britten*. You can immediately hear the differences and judge for yourself if both styles work for you or if you prefer one style over the other in this work.


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## Marinera

*Shadowdancer *- Michelangeli played his own cadenza here if I remember it right.


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## pcnog11

hpowders said:


> These days I favor HIP performances of the Mozart keyboard concertos.
> 
> While the entire Bilson/Gardiner survey is very good, in my opinion, Jos van Immerseel on fortepiano with Anima Eterna is even better.


HIP is good, I have the Bilson/Gardiner set. Sound quality is excellent, but the dynamics between the piano and the orchestra could be improved. The piano does not standout as a solo instrument. I do not think it is for everyone. I think a lot of us learned to listen to classical or Mozart by means of a modern piano.


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## hpowders

pcnog11 said:


> HIP is good, I have the Bilson/Gardiner set. Sound quality is excellent, but the dynamics between the piano and the orchestra could be improved. The piano does not standout as a solo instrument. I do not think it is for everyone. I think a lot of us learned to listen to classical or Mozart by means of a modern piano.


Yes, of course. HIP Mozart is not for everyone. But it is the closest we will ever come to hearing Mozart piano concertos the way Mozart composed them and listeners at that time heard them. How can anyone who claims to love Mozart resist that opportunity?


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## bharbeke

hpowders said:


> Yes, of course. HIP Mozart is not for everyone. But it is the closest we will ever come to hearing Mozart piano concertos the way Mozart composed them and listeners at that time heard them. How can anyone who claims to love Mozart resist that opportunity?


Quite easily! I am not a listener in Mozart's time, and I prefer the sound of modern instruments. How many listeners from the 18th century would be ecstatic to be able to hear Mozart's music on a modern grand piano? I'd wager a lot of them would like it better.


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## Pugg

bharbeke said:


> Quite easily! I am not a listener in Mozart's time, and I prefer the sound of modern instruments. How many listeners from the 18th century would be ecstatic to be able to hear Mozart's music on a modern grand piano? I'd wager a lot of them would like it better.


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## realdealblues

bharbeke said:


> Quite easily! I am not a listener in Mozart's time, and I prefer the sound of modern instruments. How many listeners from the 18th century would be ecstatic to be able to hear Mozart's music on a modern grand piano? I'd wager a lot of them would like it better.


Mozart was a very forward thinking person. With the invention of the Fortepiano he didn't go back and write harpsichord concertos. Instruments evolved and all the great composers evolved. They were all wanting to push boundaries and explore new ideas and new instruments. There is no doubt in my mind that he would much rather have heard his works played on a modern grand piano if given the chance.

HIP on period instruments are interesting because it does allow us to hear how things sounded at the time, but they are a novelty in my eyes because the great composers of the past would have continued to push boundaries had they been granted extra long life and lived into this century.


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## shadowdancer

Marinera said:


> *Shadowdancer *- Michelangeli played his own cadenza here if I remember it right.


Thanks for the comment. 
I do recognize a different cadenza but I didn't know that it was his cadenza.


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## pcnog11

hpowders said:


> Yes, of course. HIP Mozart is not for everyone. But it is the closest we will ever come to hearing Mozart piano concertos the way Mozart composed them and listeners at that time heard them. How can anyone who claims to love Mozart resist that opportunity?


Agreed. Do you have the whole set or do you have individual CDs?


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## pcnog11

I do have a question about the 2nd movement. There is a passage during the first part before the change of the tempo and the piano is playing a variation of the first (maybe second) theme. It seems that some soloist is playing a off beat version while others are playing a traditional version. Does anyone notice that? I like the off beat version, great articulation form Jan Lisiecki.


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## pcnog11

pcnog11 said:


> I do have a question about the 2nd movement. There is a passage during the first part before the change of the tempo and the piano is playing a variation of the first (maybe second) theme. It seems that some soloist is playing a off beat version while others are playing a traditional version. Does anyone notice that? I like the off beat version, great articulation form Jan Lisiecki.


If you do not what I am referring to, please see 16:18 to 16:57 of the following link:


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## sbmonty

I'm inspired to do a little comparative listening this weekend. I own Bilson/Gardiner, Curzon/Britten, Anda/CASM. TC never fails to trigger the desire to keep listening and learning. Thanks!


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## pcnog11

Uchida has a similar variation that I was talking about. Very good musical phrasing and articulation. I cannot stand her facial expression....no offense.


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## Jos

image uploading site

I have those four to choose from.
I enjoy Perahias soft, velvety touch, somewhat romantic; but then, I always enjoy his approach with anything he does.
The Haskil seems somewhat fierce in comparison.
Brendel and Haebler are both very good. I enjoyed listening to them all this afternoon, all different and interesting, no bests !


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## Pugg

Jos said:


> image uploading site
> 
> I have those four to choose from.
> I enjoy Perahias soft, velvety touch, somewhat romantic; but then, I always enjoy his approach with anything he does.
> The Haskil seems somewhat fierce in comparison.
> Brendel and Haebler are both very good. I enjoyed listening to them all this afternoon, all different and interesting, no bests !


Must have been a very pleasant afternoon.


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## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> The performance by Alfred Brendel with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra conducted by Sir Charles Mackerras is good.
> 
> But the most dramatic performance I know that gets to the heart of the music like no other, is the HIP collaboration with Malcolm Bilson, fortepiano and The English Baroque Soloists conducted by John Eliot Gardiner.


Probably my top two choices right here.

Right with or just below these two would be Goode/Orpheus, Gulda/Abbado and Schiff/Vegh (in no particular order), each with distinct qualities I wouldn't want to be without.


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## AfterHours

KenOC said:


> I admit to being very fond of the Mozart piano concertos, at least the most popular ones, played by Richard Goode and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra. If I could keep only one set of these, they would be a good choice.
> 
> Here's the k.466.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Piano-Concer...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=C0ZJ68MQTDTZHMJ0TCS8


Among my favorite renditions, total class and elegance -- HIP even though not "technically". Love how he articulates the percussion in the 1st movement climaxes.


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## AfterHours

realdealblues said:


> This is probably my favorite Piano Concerto. I never tire of hearing it. I love literally over a hundred different Piano Concertos but this one just resonates with me on an extra level. I probably have well over 50 different recordings of it.
> 
> If you want really bold and powerful and dramatic I will echo the suggestions of *Alfred Brendel* but I will go with his later recording with *Charles Mackerras and the Scottish Chamber Orchestra* rather than his earlier recording with Sir Neville Marriner as I feel he was able to improve on his earlier rendition as well as the wonderful modern engineering captures Charles Mackerras's beautiful accompaniment to an even greater degree than what Marriner was able to give us.
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum *Clifford Curzon* and *Benjamin Britten with the English Chamber Orchestra* is amazingly refined and elegant and I would also put it in the must hear category with Brendel.
> 
> Somewhere between Brendel and Curzon I would put *Richard Goode with the Orcheus Chamber Orchestra* and *Rudolf Buchbinder and the Vienna Symphony*. Both are excellent and absolutely worth hearing.
> 
> I could probably go on and on. I wouldn't want to be without the lyrical beauty that belongs to *Murray Perahia* nor would I want to be without* Arthur Rubinstein's* warm and wonderfully crafted reading with Alfred Wallenstein that most would probably never give a listen to begin with. *Andras Schiff* with Sandor Vegh, *Geza Anda*, *Christian Zacharias* with David Zinman, *Rudolf Serkin* with George Szell...there's really a lot of wonderful ones out there.
> 
> But for must listens...I would start with *Brendel/Mackerras* and *Curzon/Britten*. You can immediately hear the differences and judge for yourself if both styles work for you or if you prefer one style over the other in this work.


Excellent survey of several of the very best versions!


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## Triplets

I don't think I've ever heard a bad recording of this great work. My personal favorite is Goode/Orpheus but I have several others.
Much has been made of the link between this work and Beethoven's 3rd PC. I was reminded of this again during a concert in Chicago two weeks ago with Mitsuko Uchida as a soloist. I particularly like the way that in the finale of both works at about two thirds in the tragic clouds lift and we are suddenly in the land of sunshine.


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## Judith

Saw this wonderful piano concerto performed live recently by

Leif Ove Andsnes 
Norwegian Chamber Orchestra 

Was wonderfully performed and recently bought it by them!


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## Chatellerault

One of my favorite concertos and I believe it accepts a broader spectrum of interpretations than most of Mozart's concertos.

The 1st and 3rd movements can accept pre-Romantic interpretations (Beethoven, Clara Schumann and Brahms wrote cadenzas to it, so this interpretation is quite well-established historically). The 2nd mvt. is a _Romanze_, not a strict indication such as _adagio _or _larghetto_, so it leaves a lot of space for the interpreter's ideas...

If I want a HIP interpretation with fast tempos everywhere I listen to *Brautigam*, who plays in a copy of a Walter & Sohn fortepiano, circa 1802. The scales in the 3rd mvt. seem much more idiomatic to his fortepiano than to a modern grand.

If I want a chamber orchestra with beautiful sound on modern instruments I listen to *Brendel*/Marriner (not only on this concerto but any from #9 to #27).

If I want a stormy, slow, proto-Romantic K. 466 I listen to *Michelangeli *(DG, 1989, with Beethoven's cadenzas and the North German sound of NDR-Sinfonieorchester). Not much unlike Michelangeli's is the recording by Argerich/Abbado, it sounds pra-Romantic although with faster tempi and smaller orchestra.

If you accept older recordings (i.e. pre-1970), I recommend Clara *Haskil *or Guiomar *Novaes*. Both Mlle. Haskil and Mme. Novaes have studied in Paris, both have a beautiful, now old-fashioned _toucher _ but, interestingly, their tempos with Mozart are faster than what you'd expect. Novaes' K.466 has a duration of less than 28m47s, unlike Argerich or Brendel who take more than 30 mins. Although I can't recommend the orchestra on Novaes' LP from the 1950s (Vienna Symphony Orchestra with Hans Swarowsky), I like her 2nd movement better than any of the above:


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