# Conductor/Orchestra Question



## CDs (May 2, 2016)

So on YouTube I watch a guy show off his record collection and what he has recently purchased. A few times he has shown a classical record and he will only mention the orchestra and never say who conducted the piece.
From what I've seen here on TC and a few other places when discussing a piece of classical music most people will talk about the conductor before the orchestra (if at all). 
Is it the norm to put more emphasis on the conductor?
I did mention this to the Youtuber but just curious if I was correct in doing so.


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## Boston Charlie (Dec 6, 2017)

CDs said:


> ...From what I've seen here on TC and a few other places when discussing a piece of classical music most people will talk about the conductor before the orchestra (if at all).
> Is it the norm to put more emphasis on the conductor?...


It depends. Sometimes the conductor IS the orchestra. Especially during the Golden Age of classical music recordings (approx.1950-1975), there were several conductors who held long-time posts leading orchestras, shaping, building and fine-tuning the orchestra; sometimes by way of the power of their musical vision, their charisma, or even through tantrums (i.e. Ormandy/Philadelphia, Szell/Cleveland, Reiner/Chicago, Bernstein/NYPO, Toscanini/NBC, Karajan/Berlin); but in any case, they created a sound that was particular to the orchestra.

On the other hand, the Vienna Philharmonic has a sound that stands apart; and it seems that no matter who's up there on the podium, the beautiful Vienna sound prevails.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Boston Charlie said:


> On the other hand, the Vienna Philharmonic has a sound that stands apart; and it seems that no matter who's up there on the podium, the beautiful Vienna sound prevails.


Well said.

It does seem like the conductors are responsible for how the piece is going to turn out, so the recording will rise or fall based on them. Different orchestras will sound differently under the same conductor; like Jochum's Bruckner with the Dresden orchestra versus the Rundfunks, but it's still the man with the stick that at least I pay attention to.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I'd rather know who the orchestra is. Many orchestras are known for a great sound, despite going through numerous conductors. Ideally I'd like to know the orchestra, who is conducting and when. It can be a good guide, especially when it is from a period where a well-known conductor perhaps wasn't at the height of his/her powers.

Personally I think a lot of people fetishise conductors. I agree that they can shape an orchestra to get a magnificent sound, but it's a team effort with orchestra feedback. The days of dictator-conductors are gone.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

It goes both ways for me - I'm very much interested in the orchestra, but the conductor is important also...
of course, the music performed is important as well!! lol!!

Re ViennaPO - they do maintain a characteristic sound, as do all the greatest orchestras, but for me, VPO sounds the best when they have a really tough sob on the podium, who challenges them....Reiner, one of the ultimate *ss-kickers, certainly fit the bill - and his 1956 recordings were remarkably good. Bernstein challenged them, p*ssed them off, but they would deliver for him.......the Solti/VPO love/hate relationship is well-known, but the orchestra would really play for him, in spite of themselves!! Solti gets some of the most beautiful and sensuous playing from the VPO - I recently picked up his "Der Rosenkavalier" -lots of wonderful music, but the final scene is just spectacular....also - in the Solti/VPO Ring - "Walkure Act III - Wotan's Farewell and Magic Fire Music"!! wow, it is just dripping with passion....really superb....Solti could go for the big long line, and VPO could certainly deliver.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> .....it's a team effort with orchestra feedback. The days of dictator-conductors are gone.


you're so right. but it was a team effort even in the days of the podium tyrants....even the most tyrannical conductors knew that they lived or died with their orchestra soloists - Reiner, Toscanini, Szell, Stokowski all knew this....they depended on their soloists and their sections. after all, without them, all you have is a guy waving a stick...


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's the Maestro Myth and the Cult of the Conductor. Truth is: most people wouldn't hear the difference in Beethoven 5th conducted by one conductor or the other. But as you get more and more into classical, the more different versions of something you hear, and the more sophisticated you become, you learn that there are indeed differences in performances and it's the conductor more than any other factor that makes the difference. After some time (maybe decades) you find conductors who always seem to get it right, at least for you. There are some conductors you learn to avoid for one reason or another. It really does matter. For my taste, there really was a "golden age" of conducting, and I highly value recordings from Monteux, Reiner, Munch, Walter, Barbirolli, Boult, Cluytens and others of that generation. There are some I just avoid: Stokowski, Jansons, Rattle. For my money, there are few working conductors I really find interesting. They have nothing to say that others haven't said better. But I am a dedicated collector - most casual listeners couldn't care less or even hear why Monteux's Tchaikovsky is so much better than Bychkov's new recordings.
The local classical station frequently will name the group performing and omit the conductor. I don't know why. Some of it is because several once big names have now clouded their reputation with rumors of sexual impropriety. Like Dutoit and Levine.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

You don't have to be a podium SOB and Marine corps drill sergeant to get marvelous results from an orchestra . Bruno Walter, Sir Thomas Beecham, Dimitri Mitropolous, Pierre Monteiux, Charles Munch, Rafael Kubelik, Eugen Jochum , for example, didn't have to browbeat ,humiliate and terrify the musicians to get the best out of an orchestra . 
Beecham was such a witty guy he used to make the musicians crack up at rehearsals with his funny comments . 
Orchestras did the right thing years ago and gave musicians tenure after a brief probationary period and wouldn't take podium tyranny any longer, with the help of the musician's unions and I don't think it had any adverse effects on the quality of their playing . 
The reason the Vienna Philharmonic has that distinctive sound is because of the unique Viennese or Austrian instruments they use, such as the Vienna horns and oboes, and the tympani, for example .


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> It's the Maestro Myth and the Cult of the Conductor. Truth is: most people wouldn't hear the difference in Beethoven 5th conducted by one conductor or the other. But as you get more and more into classical, the more different versions of something you hear, and the more sophisticated you become, you learn that there are indeed differences in performances *and it's the conductor more than any other factor that makes the difference*.


I agree with you, but I want to quibble about the part in bold. I've listened to a lot of Bruckner 6 versions recently (including a recent live performance) and I think there are other factors that shape the orchestra's performance - among which the current interpretation fashions and questions of whimsical tempo choices (in the style of Wagner school of conducting) as compared to trying to be faithful to a score.

A lot of recent performances of that particular symphony mimic one another in playing a ridiculously fast scherzo and a ridiculously slow adagio collapsing into a largo. There is little to separate so many of them that it doesn't much matter who is on the podium. In the live performance I saw I felt the conductor neglected the brass section, but they played magnificently.

It isn't all conductor.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

superhorn said:


> You don't have to be a podium SOB and Marine corps drill sergeant to get marvelous results from an orchestra .


I agree completely, as a general rule....what I meant was that specifically, for me, the Vienna PO sounds the best when led by a tough podium sob....that seemed to bring out the best in them. again, that's for my taste regarding VPO.



> Orchestras did the right thing years ago and gave musicians tenure after a brief probationary period and wouldn't take podium tyranny any longer, with the help of the musician's unions and I don't think it had any adverse effects on the quality of their playing.


Agree completely - much better job security, pay, benefits, overall...in Szell's day, he dictated the pay rate for each musician in the orchestra....if a musician wanted a raise, he/she had to go into the Maestro, individually, and pitch their case, hardly a welcome prospect...



> The reason the Vienna Philharmonic has that distinctive sound is because of the unique Viennese or Austrian instruments they use, such as the Vienna horns and oboes, and the tympani, for example .


Disagree to a point here - yes the VPO has characteristic instruments, but the orchestra also has tremendous flexibility - it sounded very different under Solti then it did under Karajan, or Reiner compared with Walter....that's the conductor influence, and each one I named was a powerful podium force.

I must say that overall, orchestras do not change their _*sound*_ that much between conductors - because the same musicians are using essentially the same instruments, with the same concept of sound day in and day out...my references to the VPO are based upon recordings, many of which were made many years ago...I've not heard the VPO live in some time - early 90s?? . 
Two orchestras which I have heard live, frequently and recently, under many different conductors, are Chicago and Boston. The orchestras do not alter their tone very much, regardless of who is on the podium...there are of course, differences, but these have to do with articulation, dynamics, phrasing, energy - is the orchestra playing with great energy, right on top of, front edge of the beat, or is it more laid back??...hard articulations, or a softer attack?? - so much depends on the repertoire, and how that particular conductor indicates he/she wants it played. but the basic _sound_, the tone of the orchestra does not change very much


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I seem to be in the minority but to me the conductor is more important than the orchestra when I choose or think about recordings. Yes, some orchestras sound marvelous but there are plenty of bad records by them. OK, many conductors have off days or times when they get it wrong as well but when this happens it is clearly their fault. When a great orchestra makes a poor record it is also usually the conductor's fault. This seems to demonstrate the central importance of the conductor.


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