# Do you find mahler's music to be at all sensual? Cite your examples.



## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

It's all in the title.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

No. Not at all. There is nothing "sensual" or sexy in his music. That is, of course, if by senual you mean sexy.

His music can be pitifully romantic, but not sensual.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean and I agree with you - which is why I find discussions of Wagner vs Mahler puzzling.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

NightHawk said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I mean and I agree with you - which is why I find discussions of Wagner vs Mahler puzzling.


Why not compare the two? Mahler was directly influenced by Wagner.

Hmmm, people seem to get so miffed by these "versus" threads. I think they are some of the most interesting and worth-while threads on this, if I may be so bold, slowly dying forum. I'd rather talk about how Composer A who was influence by Composer B is different than Composer A than whether or not I pee in the shower or some other jokey _merde de taureau._


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Given that I necessarily have to use my sense of hearing, I would say so!


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I don't hear the influence of Wagner in Mahler's music. I guess I'm just not capable of hearing it.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

It's not one of the top 50 or so words I'd use to describe him.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

How was he directly influenced? I can't hear it. edit: I can hear how RStrauss was influenced by Wagner, but that seems so obvious to me.



Tapkaara said:


> Why not compare the two? Mahler was directly influenced by Wagner.
> 
> Hmmm, people seem to get so miffed by these "versus" threads. I think they are some of the most interesting and worth-while threads on this, if I may be so bold, slowly dying forum. I'd rather talk about how Composer A who was influence by Composer B is different than Composer A than whether or not I pee in the shower or some other jokey _merde de taureau._


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I never understood the problem with versus threads either. "It's just opinion!"--obviously, this is a forum for opinions.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

May I know your opinion of Wagner's influence on Mahler?



regressivetransphobe said:


> I never understood the problem with versus threads either. "It's just opinion!"--obviously, this is a forum for opinions.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I was always under the impression it was pretty heavy.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

NightHawk said:


> How was he directly influenced? I can't hear it. edit: I can hear how RStrauss was influenced by Wagner, but that seems so obvious to me.


I think you you can hear Wagner's influence in Mahler's orchestration and in the sweeping emotionalism. I don't think there is too much in common between the two in terms of melodic invention, but I think Mahler was mainly influenced by the large-scale nature and orchestral opulence of Wagner's sound. The bold harmonies and and roaming tonality, too.

And Maestro Barenboim has this to say: Also, I must say, my occupation with Wagner, because the Wagner influence on Mahler is very often ignored. One only talks about Mahler's Jewish origins, and the Klezmer music, and the psychoanalysis and all these things, but basically, without Wagner there would have been no Mahler. And the most interesting thing about Mahler is that he really had one foot in the past and one in the future, that he had one foot in Wagner and the other foot in Schönberg, and as such was a great transitional figure.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Sensual doesn't come to mind with Mahler for me, I agree with the others. He's often about love and loss, eg. in his _Songs of a Wayfarer_, or death & grieving, eg. _Kindertotenlieder_. Even the _Adagietto_ of his 5th symphony, written as a kind of love song (something of the sort?) to his new wife, Alma, comes across quite sad and with longing, passionate yes, but not exactly sensual. No wonder it was used in Visconti's film _Death in Venice_, it talks to me of the fragility and temporary quality of life. We're just small ants in a vast universal, that sort of thing...


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

*diatonic/chromatic*

Mahler seems to be more diatonic in general than Wagner...is that an ignorant remark?



Tapkaara said:


> I think you you can hear Wagner's influence in Mahler's orchestration and in the sweeping emotionalism. I don't think there is too much in common between the two in terms of melodic invention, but I think Mahler was mainly influenced by the large-scale nature and orchestral opulence of Wagner's sound. The bold harmonies and and roaming tonality, too.
> 
> And Maestro Barenboim has this to say: Also, I must say, my occupation with Wagner, because the Wagner influence on Mahler is very often ignored. One only talks about Mahler's Jewish origins, and the Klezmer music, and the psychoanalysis and all these things, but basically, without Wagner there would have been no Mahler. And the most interesting thing about Mahler is that he really had one foot in the past and one in the future, that he had one foot in Wagner and the other foot in Schönberg, and as such was a great transitional figure.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

NightHawk said:


> Mahler seems to be more diatonic in general than Wagner...is that an ignorant remark?


I suppose this could be true, though Wagner was no slouch either when it came to freely utilizing all of the notes of the scale. Perhaps Mahler, the semi-modernist, would have been more free to explore the diatonic and chromatic than Wagner.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

What Tapkaara says is right, Mahler was doing things that were very experimental, eg. the massed nine tone/note clusters in the opening _Adagio_ of his 10th symphony look pretty far ahead. He was a huge supporter of Schoenberg and other composers younger than him. I think it's fair to say that Mahler is a seminal figure of the early c20th just like Wagner was of the late c19th...


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

Sensual is the wrong word for Mahler. 

What about "epic" or "majestic"?


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## DavidMahler (Dec 28, 2009)

i don't hear sensual, epic or majestic as the standout Mahlerian adjectives....certainly not sensual

Mahler is at once the grandest of all composers, his music seems epic in scale, but his compositions are the most intimate by far, particularly, the 9th and Song of the Earth. They're very private.

My very brief synopsis of each symphony:

1 - Brilliant opening, even if just a bit slow moving. The inner movements are fun character pieces but, finale is extraordinary but ultimately a bit too grandiose. It's his weakest symphony

2 - This is the biggest jump in quality in his entire output. A tremendous work, but very public and epic. The finale is among his most ambitious creations, but the 4th movement is the heart and soul of this work

3 - This is a superior creation to the 2nd, but does not hold together as well. The finale is one of his greatest creations and the opening is one of most imaginative creations. The inner movements, while great - leave the overall feel of the work, a bit awkward. It feels overly ambitious, but it has moments of pure genius. 

4 - This is a near-perfect constructed work, joining the classical era sound with post romantic tonality. The finale is one of the finest examples of his vocal writing, and the slow movement is one of the most perfect slow movements. If played too slow it can become sleepy.

5 - This is where modern Mahler begins. There is an inwardness here, not present in the first 4 symphonies. The 4th movement (adagieto) is where young Mahler meets mature Mahler. It's a deeper melodic work, with more pain and beauty than anything Tchaikovsky ever wrote. I enjoy the finale, but I feel the counterpoint at times feels out of place.

6 - One of his greatest symphonies which he almost butchered by switch the 2nd and 3rd movement. Zubin Mehta (devout Mahlerian) refuses to conducting anything from the 6th onward claiming he doesn't understand it. This is because Mahler is now a modernist. This is the Mahler I love most.

7 - The most underrated symphony. This has the child like spirit of the 4th, but the angular nature of Schoenberg. Brilliant Symphony. Very dark but calm.

8 - So strange it is that this work was consider by its composer to be his greatest. It's certainly not. It's too grandiose, it doesn't have the private contemplative nature that makes Mahler the greatest of all composers (my opinion). There are some brilliant moments here though, particularly in the second movement.

Das Lied von der Erde - This piece has no peer, no rival. It is the greatest vocal writing of all time and truly some of the greatest orchestral writing of all time. In the hands of Janet Baker, the finale is the most moving of all of Mahler's works.....except for....

9 - From beginning to end, there is no way this is not the most important work of the 20th Century. I'm not talking about influence or popularity. This is where Mahler succeeds in transforming music into a physiologically moving experience. I've read about 2 incidences where people committed suicide after hearing this symphony 1 time. I've read about a guy who went campaigning Mahler's name in red letters all across Toronto in graffiti after hearing this symphony. It is the most ugly piece of truth and acceptance. 

10 - This could have been greater than the 9th had he lived. The 1st movement is extremely moving.

The Resurrection is today his most famous work. It sounds nothing to me like Mature Mahler. It's more operatic and impressive sounding, easier to follow...Mahler evolved into the most private and intimate of writers, but stayed within the grand scale of the symphony


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

*Mahler and diatonicism*



Tapkaara said:


> I suppose this could be true, though Wagner was no slouch either when it came to freely utilizing all of the notes of the scale. Perhaps Mahler, the semi-modernist, would have been more free to explore the diatonic and chromatic than Wagner.


By 'more diatonic' I mean that Mahler's music seems to have many more, and stronger internal cadences (within a section or movement) while Wagner is always digressing (?) to another tonal area without showing the seams or cadencing - 'endless melody'... is an oft-read description of W's music. Mahler sounds folksy to me at times, something I never hear in Wagner. Folksy music is seldom very chromatic. Unless you go slavic, anyway.


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

4th Symphony is my favorite symphony from M., though I am not well-acquaited with the 6th. But, I think Das Lied von der Erde is his finest work (that I know). I have Baker w King, Ludwig w Wunderlich, and Norman w Vickers. I like Jon Vickers' first m. which is terrifying - and Ludwig's 6th m., it brings out the pseudo-Chinese flute and harp section in a way none of the others do. I listen to all of them. Janet Baker is a very great artist.



DavidMahler said:


> i don't hear sensual, epic or majestic as the standout Mahlerian adjectives....certainly not sensual
> 
> Mahler is at once the grandest of all composers, his music seems epic in scale, but his compositions are the most intimate by far, particularly, the 9th and Song of the Earth. They're very private.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Hahahaha, how funny. Before I opened this thread, I was predicting a whole slew of "of course he is"!

Well, ya just never know what yer gonna find online.

(If you want to be pendantic, and who doesn't once in awhile, sensual means "of the senses." The sexy one is "sensuous." Or that's how it used to be, anyway. Anyway, neither term is a musical one, so....)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^I remember a teacher of mine years back making that distinction between sensual and sensuous. But it was so long ago I forgot about it. A common mix up of the two this seems to be...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

Language is a living thing, though. No rules in stone.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

In terms of Mahler the man being sensuous, apparently he wasn't that exactly. Due to his illness and quite frail health, also heavy workload, apparently Alma was not very pleased about their sex life. Which could be part of the reason, or a big reason, why their marriage was beginning to fall apart when Mahler was dying. I've read that Mahler enjoyed talking to his wife or reading poetry to her than the other things, he was almost like a father figure in some ways & she being much younger than him probably didn't get a lot out of the relationship. At Alma's own funeral, none of the music of her late husband was played...


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## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

I should have peeked into the OED as I _was_ definitely meaning the 'sex type thing' thing. I have the same problem with continual and continuous.


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## HexameronVI (May 9, 2011)

The most "sensual"-ity I've heard in any of Mahler's works would have to be in his 8th symphony. There is a moment where the entire orchestra quiets down and the violin plays one of the main melodies used in Part 2.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

regressivetransphobe said:


> Language is a living thing, though. No rules in stone.


Well, what used to be called the deep structure is pretty stony, but otherwise, yes. Which is why I said if you want to be pedantic.

And it's true, sensual and sensuous have become synonyms, so you really don't have to remember anyone's distinction between them to use them. To read them accurately in older books, say, older than when they had become synonyms, you would still need to remember the distinction.

But I digress. I think the third movement of the first symphony is as sexy as f***. But then, I think all kletzmer music of all types, faux or not, is sexy. I know that's early Mahler and not altogether representative, but that's my example for today.

[Nighthawk mentioned slavic, which is what Mahler was, after all, by association if nothing else. Born and raised in Bohemia.]


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

My answer is no...while extremely and sometimes overly dramatic, I've detected no traces to true sensuality as with many LVB works and others, of course. I don't know much about him but I think that may have been the farthest thing he wanted to portray in his music.


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