# Looking for some feedback -if possible- on some work.



## Swosh

!


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## Vasks

I will not be commenting on the music itself. I have expressed my displeasure at today's composers who imitate older styles. So I need not hash that out again. Here are a just a few things I noticed in the first couple of pages.

*Score*:

The piano is placed below the strings.

The font size for the strings is to be smaller than the piano's font size.

There needs to be at least 3 systems per page and minimum 3-4 measures per system so that
the pianist isn't turning pages every 4 bars. This means smaller staff and font sizes but you must not have the piano notes too cramped.

Check out the layout of piano quartet scores at the website: IMSLP

*Rhythm*:

Again, this is only what I saw incorrect for the first few pages. Keep in mind rhythmic notation
deals with general agreements. There can be execptions for special situations, but in these I'm about to deal with they're not.

m. 18 - Cello - The dotted 8th is incorrect. A dotted note usually must be at the start of a beat. The only exception is if the dotted note off the beat fills in the remainder of a single beat. IOW
a dotted 8th that's followed by a 16th to give a complete beat can be reversed to be a 16th followed by a dotted 8th so long as those two notes together equal a complete beat. Your dotted 8th goes beyond beat one, thus obscurring the start of beat two. You must get rid of the dot and tie the end of beat 1 into a 16th that is the start of beat two.

m. 28 - Cello - If you understand what I said about m.18, the same applies here too. The dotted half starts off the beat, so the correct rhythm is to have the pitch "E" on the second half of beat one tie into a half note (beats 2 & 3) and that half note then ties into an 8th at the start of beat four.

*Harmony/Pitches*

Now here is where I know you're composing by ear and not by knowing well music theory and I first became aware of this when I saw the viola in m.14. I kept asking myself why is Swosh vascillating between the augmented unison of A# and A-natural? I mean all those alternating accidentals makes for awkward reading. And than I just listened. Oh, Swosh has temporarily switch modes from G major to G minor. G minor = having B-flats and E-flats; not the A-sharps and D-sharps of mss. 13-14. One tip-off should have been for you, why are these sharped notes going down rather than up?

Anyway that's the extent of my looking. My only other comment is that if you're composing just for fun and have no intent on sharing your music like this piece with the "world" then really you can ignore what I've posted. But otherwise I recommend reading books on notation and obtain a sound knowledge of common practice harmony before sharing.


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## Phil loves classical

I thought the exposition was tighter in form than some of your previous works, going by ear, and not knowing the rules/conventions of the period myself. Not sure about those rests for a whole bar. 

I'd say keep doing what you like, even though I'd avoid imitating the Masters, when they can write 'their' music better than we ever could.


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## Swosh

Perfect. Just what I needed!! I hope it was a decent imitation at least  At this point it is just for fun.


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## Swosh

And I understand why people dislike the imitation of older styles. It's arrogant of me to assume that I can write like them. I know it probably sickens you and makes you cringe!! But for some juvenile reason, I feel compelled to try to write like it... After most everything I write, I realize how bad it is and desperately want to write something better so as to not stain the great period.


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## nardobrown

Swosh said:


> And I understand why people dislike the imitation of older styles. It's arrogant of me to assume that I can write like them. I know it probably sickens you and makes you cringe!! But for some juvenile reason, I feel compelled to try to write like it... After most everything I write, I realize how bad it is and desperately want to write something better so as to not stain the great period.


I like these styles, many likes them too, I usually think "imitation of older styles" is only an excuse to ignore the content of the music that was written, since I sometimes also write music in these older style, even today.


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## Vasks

Swosh said:


> I know it probably sickens you and makes you cringe!!


No not really. I just believe that composers create to expresses themselves. I just question how one can do that if you sound like someone from 170 years ago. I still urge you to learn more and experiment by letting yourself try something completely different.
But by the same token, as I said above, if you just are having fun doing what you're doing, you don't have to stop. I gave a touch of the feedback to say if you want the world to take your work seriously you have to improve in certain areas.


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## Vasks

nardobrown said:


> I like these styles, many likes them too


No problem there. It's only when you, the composer, want to be taken seriously in the music world that "imitation" doesn't fly. And the proof of that is being aware of what performers and conductors are choosing to program and record. Show me the living composers that are getting performances of their music that sounds just like Beethoven, Schumann or whoever died long ago.


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## Phil loves classical

Swosh said:


> And I understand why people dislike the imitation of older styles. It's arrogant of me to assume that I can write like them. I know it probably sickens you and makes you cringe!! But for some juvenile reason, I feel compelled to try to write like it... After most everything I write, I realize how bad it is and desperately want to write something better so as to not stain the great period.


I can't speak for others, but I don't think it's arrogance. It's more like our perspective is through a contemporary lens influenced by postmodernism, pop, etc. Personally I think it is more relevant that we write neoclassical music with more up-to-date musical language, rather than imitate period music written with very specific stylistic conventions of its time. It's like denying music its evolution. But I think it's ultimately up to the composer to write whatever he/she wants. If they want to imitate Hildegard de Bingen or anyone.


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## nardobrown

By the way, who is Swosh exactly imitating here?


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## Phil loves classical

nardobrown said:


> By the way, who is Swosh exactly imitating here?


To me, it sounds like Schubert.


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## nardobrown

The whole point is, sounds like Schubert doesn't mean it is Schubert's music, it is swosh's music and that's it. The content of the music is more important, and even if this style is not popular today, what if this style is suddenly labeled as "Retro-classical" in the near future?


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## Vasks

nardobrown said:


> By the way, who is Swosh exactly imitating here?


Not so much a specific person, but something between 1820-1850.


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## nardobrown

Anyway, nice work.


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## Captainnumber36

It's very pleasing to hear, even if it's derivative. I just perform at nursing homes, not sure what your intentions are.


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## adrien

The whole issue of imitating or sounding like some past period or style is very difficult to come to grips with.

To start with, all modern pop / rock / etc music could be considered to be doing this (imitating), and it's about 99% of the music that is consumed and sold and presumably wanted / sought by listeners.

To have to sound different to everything that has come before seems to be impossible. Even going the route of sounding like random noise is now passe as so many have done it. Even though mathematically I know that random streams are statistically independent, they all end up sounding the same (awful) to me.

I guess in the end we may need a sharper scalpel to distinguish how different some piece of music really is compared to other music. How different does somebody's voice need to be to be identifiable as them - or "worthy"?

I think whether a piece has worth in the world depends on whether you can find people who find worth in it. Even if it's only the composer. If the vast majority of people like melody, and harmony and identifiable rhythm and predictability, then why would we not give it to them?

Of course we still need experimenters in music as in all fields. But I disagree that ALL composers should only write experimental music. From science we know that most experiments fail.

It should not make any difference when a piece was written or who it was written by. Pieces should stand or fall on their own merits, not when they were written. This extra meta-data (who, when) is only used by people who have trained in this area. It's not used by lay listeners. They only judge based on their ears.


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## Vasks

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any...e-classical-format-like-Mozart-Beethoven-Bach

Before I answer this question, I need to raise an issue with it. (Sorry.) Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "music in the classical format like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach," because these three composers all wrote in extremely different styles. Bach was the pinnacle of the high Baroque, the master of counterpoint, synthesist extraordinaire; Mozart epitomized the Viennese Classical style, a master of melodic good taste; Beethoven was the enfant terrible of the Classical period, the trendsetter who laid the groundwork for the Romantic era. But semantics aside, I think I know what you mean. Are there any composers working today whose music is less modern and more, well, "classical"?

The short answer is maybe. When I was just beginning to cut my compositional teeth in high school, my teacher would often give me assignments that, more or less, required that I imitate the work of the great masters. He'd ask me to write a "Bach invention," a "Mozart piano sonata," a "Schubert art song," and I'd do my best to mimic their compositional voices. These were invaluable as educational tools, but the fact is that they were little more than experiments. Similar experiments took place in college, particularly in the study of orchestration or counterpoint. If you're going to find your own compositional voice, you could do worse than exploring (and yes, mimicking) the styles of composers you appreciate.

My point is that there are almost certainly student composers today whose music sounds an awful lot like that of Mozart. And good for them. But this is not the kind of music that's going to find a very enthusiastic audience or have any legs. Why? Because it's already been written, and it is, in a way, outdated and irrelevant… which is not at all the same as saying that it's bad. Composers of any age must look back on the music of the past, and they are obliged to learn what they can from it while also going off in their own direction. Bach's style was irrelevant to Mozart, and Mozart's was irrelevant to Beethoven, and yet, both Mozart and Beethoven worshipped Bach's music. They loved it and learned from it, and there may have been a time when they imitated it, but they ultimately had to write music that was true for them and relevant to their time period.

Let me give a personal example: A few years ago, I wrote a fugue for brass quintet, and I did my homework. I listened to stacks of Bach, I analyzed Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, I stood in awe of Shostakovich's 24 Preludes and Fugues for piano, and I also read Alfred Mann's brilliant The Study of Fugue. I wanted to do everything I could to make sure my fugue was as good as it could be. So, at the end of the day, who did my fugue sound like? Did it sound like Bach, or Beethoven, or Shostakovich? The answer is that it sounded like none of them; it sounded like me, which is exactly as it should have been.

Back to the initial question: Are there any modern-day composers that write music like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach? Maybe, but if there are, it's time for them to move beyond imitation and start writing their own music.


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## Paul T McGraw

@Swosh I really enjoyed this piece. There are so many tens of thousands of composers today, that the odds of anyone becoming famous and getting professional symphony attention are extremely small. So I say, be true to yourself and write what you enjoy. That's what I do. I will post another of my pieces today or tomorrow. I write in a mostly romantic style. I am thrilled that more composers are chosing to express themselves using melody and CPE harmony.


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## Paul T McGraw

Vasks said:


> https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any...e-classical-format-like-Mozart-Beethoven-Bach
> 
> Before I answer this question, I need to raise an issue with it. (Sorry.) Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as "music in the classical format like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach," because these three composers all wrote in extremely different styles. Bach was the pinnacle of the high Baroque, the master of counterpoint, synthesist extraordinaire; Mozart epitomized the Viennese Classical style, a master of melodic good taste; Beethoven was the enfant terrible of the Classical period, the trendsetter who laid the groundwork for the Romantic era. But semantics aside, I think I know what you mean. Are there any composers working today whose music is less modern and more, well, "classical"?
> 
> The short answer is maybe. When I was just beginning to cut my compositional teeth in high school, my teacher would often give me assignments that, more or less, required that I imitate the work of the great masters. He'd ask me to write a "Bach invention," a "Mozart piano sonata," a "Schubert art song," and I'd do my best to mimic their compositional voices. These were invaluable as educational tools, but the fact is that they were little more than experiments. Similar experiments took place in college, particularly in the study of orchestration or counterpoint. If you're going to find your own compositional voice, you could do worse than exploring (and yes, mimicking) the styles of composers you appreciate.
> 
> My point is that there are almost certainly student composers today whose music sounds an awful lot like that of Mozart. And good for them. But this is not the kind of music that's going to find a very enthusiastic audience or have any legs. Why? Because it's already been written, and it is, in a way, outdated and irrelevant… which is not at all the same as saying that it's bad. Composers of any age must look back on the music of the past, and they are obliged to learn what they can from it while also going off in their own direction. Bach's style was irrelevant to Mozart, and Mozart's was irrelevant to Beethoven, and yet, both Mozart and Beethoven worshipped Bach's music. They loved it and learned from it, and there may have been a time when they imitated it, but they ultimately had to write music that was true for them and relevant to their time period.
> 
> Let me give a personal example: A few years ago, I wrote a fugue for brass quintet, and I did my homework. I listened to stacks of Bach, I analyzed Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, I stood in awe of Shostakovich's 24 Preludes and Fugues for piano, and I also read Alfred Mann's brilliant The Study of Fugue. I wanted to do everything I could to make sure my fugue was as good as it could be. So, at the end of the day, who did my fugue sound like? Did it sound like Bach, or Beethoven, or Shostakovich? The answer is that it sounded like none of them; it sounded like me, which is exactly as it should have been.
> 
> Back to the initial question: Are there any modern-day composers that write music like Mozart, Beethoven, Bach? Maybe, but if there are, it's time for them to move beyond imitation and start writing their own music.


I would really like to hear your fugue, especially since I am a fan of brass music. Would you post it?


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## Vasks

Paul T McGraw said:


> I would really like to hear your fugue, especially since I am a fan of brass music. Would you post it?


The composer who wrote that "fugue" was the author of the article I posted, Paul. Thus the link at the top of the post.

BTW: It's clear you are a brass ensemble fan and I am too. I just finished a single movement for brass septet. I may post it next month.


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