# Gay composers



## Tapkaara

I caught this interssting article online. It's about 20th century gay American composers and their collective style:

http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=25752

Do you folks agree with this article that gay composers worked with a "softer" sound than the grittier and more dissonant styles of the heterosexual composers of the time?

Also, do you think being gay had an influence on the style and sound of earlier composers, say like Tchaikovsky?


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## David C Coleman

This is an interesting subject actually. Here is a link to that very subject. I'm amazed at how many household names were gay. Not sure that it influences style of composing though!..

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/list-of-gay,-lesbian-or-bisexual-composers/


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## Aramis

Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, most of his life he was in ralationship with women.


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## Tapkaara

Aramis said:


> Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, most of his life he was in ralationship with women.


Tchaikovsky lived in a place and time where you had to be gay in secret. Even today, many closeted gay people will marry and have children because they haven't much of a choice.

I think most serious scholarship states Tchaikovsky was a closeted gay male.


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## handlebar

A very interesting article indeed. Many American favourites were gay and plenty of the artists in classical now are as well. One tireless champion is Michael Tilson Thomas. He does not broadcast it though and keeps a low profile. I love the music from Diamond,Copland,Barber and other American composers.
Their orientation does not matter to me (unless the music or lyrics reflect that). While I do not share the exact same orientation as the gay composers, I admire their work for the most part. I do find it interesting how gay men are mentioned but never bi or lesbian composers.. There were bi men as composers. Those who had wives and still had men on the side would be bi,yes? I know my gay and bi friends don't like labels but there you are.I call it how I see it.

Very interesting thread. Glad to see it has developed into an immature flame throwing mess that some other forums tend to be. There are too many mature and intelligent men and women here on this list.

Jim


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## World Violist

I'm not very familiar with gay composers. Tchaikovsky was, of course, but his idiom wasn't entirely different than other heart-on-sleeve, emotionally tormented composers of the Late Romantic. Post-romantic I'm really not at all sure about, though. Leonard Bernstein I haven't heard a lot of. He just seemed to put together several disparate styles in his music. I doubt that's significant, as just about every major modern composer in America is virtually forced into doing this.


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## Tapkaara

Honestly, I'm not sure I agree with the article's assertion that there is a "softer" side to the music of gay composers in the 20th centrury, while heterosexual composers like Schonberg and Ives took pleasure in "masucline" dissonances and mathematics.

There were also a lot of straight composers who did not go the same musical route as the 2nd Vienesse School or the very avant-garde.

But I have often wondered if they hyper-romanticism in Tchaikovsky is the expression of very repressed feelings that he could only dare express in music. Many of his scores are ultra-romantic, and by that, I mean it sounds like music of love and extacy. But yet this is a man who probably experienced very little of that in his life, at least the way he would have wanted to.


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## Mirror Image

There were many composers that were gay: Copland, Tchaikovsky, Copland, Bernstein, Barber, etc. This doesn't and shouldn't have any affect on their music I think. Their private lives was simply that...private.

While I personally don't agree with the lifestyles that many composers chose, I'm thankful and grateful for their music.


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## handlebar

How do you figure that Rachmaninov was gay? Never knew that one after 3 books worth of reading.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> How do you figure that Rachmaninov was gay? Never knew that one after 3 books worth of reading.
> 
> Jim


I'm terribly you are right. Rachmaninov married his cousin. Sorry about that. I forgot about that!


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## Marco01

I read that Lou Harrison was gay. His suite for Symphonic Strings is fairly special.

To be honest, gay, straight, or whatever, it really doesn't make a jot of difference to me. 

I certainly didn't know Copland was gay, and certainly would never have guessed. Then again, it is something when listening to his music, or any other composers' for that matter, that would never really cross my mind.


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## Tapkaara

Marco01 said:


> I read that Lou Harrison was gay. His suite for Symphonic Strings is fairly special.


Yes, he is probably one of the better known gay composers. He was also an outspoken gay rights activist.


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## Mirror Image

Marco01 said:


> I certainly didn't know Copland was gay, and certainly would never have guessed. Then again, it is something when listening to his music, or any other composers' for that matter, that would never really cross my mind.


I didn't know either until I read a lot about him a few weeks ago. It's hard to figure, but he's an amazing composer nonetheless.


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## handlebar

Tapkaara said:


> Yes, he is probably one of the better known gay composers. He was also an outspoken gay rights activist.


Lou was a special composer for me as I was introduced to his music by meeting the man himself back in the early 90's. A sweet and gentle man, his works were unknown to me until about a week before meeting him. After that I found everything I could that he composed. Not everything was a masterpiece but most are very accessible and his symphonies and guitar works are my favourites. He was also a close friend of Hovhaness, who was not gay but admired the works by Harrison and many other gay composers.

Jim


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## handlebar

Mirror Image said:


> I didn't know either until I read a lot about him a few weeks ago. It's hard to figure, but he's an amazing composer nonetheless.


Really though, does a persons sexual preference make a difference in music or anything else as far as the arts are concerned? Not to me. Who they sleep with does not make the keys or octaves any less or more interesting. This is why making ones preference public to the world makes no sense to me. Who cares? Why broadcast it? 
I like the music of Copland and many gay composers for it's beauty and composition. Not because it is from a gay man or woman.

Jim


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## Tapkaara

handlebar said:


> Really though, does a persons sexual preference make a difference in music or anything else as far as the arts are concerned? Not to me. Who they sleep with does not make the keys or octaves any less or more interesting. This is why making ones preference public to the world makes no sense to me. Who cares? Why broadcast it?
> I like the music of Copland and many gay composers for it's beauty and composition. Not because it is from a gay man or woman.
> 
> Jim


No, sexual preference should not matter one bit!

That's why I disagree with the basis of the article. I think it is dubious at best to say that there are common links between those composers who are gay, and that those links have root in homosexuality.

How lucky you are to have met Harrison. Sounds like he was a nice guy!


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## handlebar

Exactly!!!! 

And Mr Harrison was indeed a very kind man. With his white beard one could imagine him as a Santa figure during Christmas instead of a composer. His partner also attended the party and looked a lot like Lou himself! Both had white grandfatherly type beards with very nice smiles. It was a meeting I will always remember.
I have also corresponded with Ned Rorem, another gay composer. Again, his music is enjoyable to me due to it's originality. Someday I hope to meet him in person as well.

Jim


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## Tapkaara

handlebar said:


> Exactly!!!!
> 
> And Mr Harrison was indeed a very kind man. With his white beard one could imagine him as a Santa figure during Christmas instead of a composer. His partner also attended the party and looked a lot like Lou himself! Both had white grandfatherly type beards with very nice smiles. It was a meeting I will always remember.
> I have also corresponded with Ned Rorem, another gay composer. Again, his music is enjoyable to me due to it's originality. Someday I hope to meet him in person as well.
> 
> Jim


That's all great stuff...hopefully you will be able to meet Mr. Rorem one day.


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> Exactly!!!!
> 
> And Mr Harrison was indeed a very kind man. With his white beard one could imagine him as a Santa figure during Christmas instead of a composer. His partner also attended the party and looked a lot like Lou himself! Both had white grandfatherly type beards with very nice smiles. It was a meeting I will always remember.
> I have also corresponded with Ned Rorem, another gay composer. Again, his music is enjoyable to me due to it's originality. Someday I hope to meet him in person as well.
> 
> Jim


Yes Ned Rorem is fantastic. Very lyrical composer. I only wish there were more recordings of his available on the market. I already own many of his works.


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## handlebar

Mirror Image said:


> Yes Ned Rorem is fantastic. Very lyrical composer. I only wish there were more recordings of his available on the market. I already own many of his works.


He is slowly starting to see more concerts performing his works. The songs tend to be the mainstay that American audiences desire. I admire his symphonies and some of the other orchestral works. Naxos have started a Ned Rorem edition that includes the symphonies,piano concertos and violin concerto along with other works. So try Naxos for more of his works.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> He is slowly starting to see more concerts performing his works. The songs tend to be the mainstay that American audiences desire. I admire his symphonies and some of the other orchestral works. Naxos have started a Ned Rorem edition that includes the symphonies,piano concertos and violin concerto along with other works. So try Naxos for more of his works.
> 
> Jim


All I own are his symphonies on Naxos, but I plan to get more eventually.


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## Guest

Mirror Image said:


> I'm terribly you are right. Rachmaninov married his cousin. Sorry about that. I forgot about that!


So that was incest if it was his first cousy


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## Mirror Image

Andante said:


> So that was incest if it was his first cousy


I guess it is.  That's very..um...weird, but I absolutely love his music, so that is what's important in the end.


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## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> Do you folks agree with this article that gay composers worked with a "softer" sound than the grittier and more dissonant styles of the heterosexual composers of the time?
> 
> Also, do you think being gay had an influence on the style and sound of earlier composers, say like Tchaikovsky?


I think it's difficult generalise, especially with Copland & Bernstein, as their output can be divided into different periods, and the sound of their works varies alot. For example, *Copland*'s jazzy _Piano Concerto_ sounds more hard-edged than his later more popular works, and *Bernstein*'s _Serenade on Plato's Symposium_ (actually a work about love) sounds softer than some of his later works (eg. the _Symphonic Dances_ from _West Side Story_). But even this is generalising greatly.

I think that sometimes, being an outsider makes an artist see the world more critically, and this can lead to them to having a different take on life. People like Oscar Wilde and Noel Coward had a very witty view of things. This can't really be discerned that much in music, which is an abstract form. Alot of Tchaikovsky's music has passion, but so does Brahms' or Janacek's, for that matter.

So to me, the article is just generalising, which is admitted by the author when they refer to Copland's serialist period, for example. But it does make some valid points about the era in which these composers lived, for example, why they kept a low profile.

& whatever you think about Bernstein's art, he must have been a wonderful human being. Just look at how he looked after his wife when she was dying of cancer. A great person, even if you don't like his music.

I must also add that two other musicians I know who were gay were the French composer Francis Poulenc & Hungarian conductor Janos Ferencsik.


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## Mirror Image

I think much speculation has been made about Ravel's orientation. He was a very private man. Not much is known about him other than his family history, where he was born, etc., things that we all know and can find out easily, but I would interested in finding out more about his relationships. Ravel once said that there is only one true love in his life and it's music. The closest person to him in his life was his mother. When she died, it devastated him. That is really the only known relationship he has had to my knowledge.


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## david johnson

'Schoenbergian serialism was the heterosexual high road.'

that statement destroys any credibility the article may have (which i think was 0, anyway).
it's general parctice that should define one's sexuality, not a claimed orientation. if you're banging both women and men, a la a personality or two mentioned in the list, you're bisexual.

dj


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## Herzeleide

David Del Tredici and Thomas Adès are both gay, as were Tippet and Britten.


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## handlebar

Andante said:


> So that was incest if it was his first cousy


Not at all. Incest is by definition an immediate family member. Cousin marriage is even now still common in many places and legal. All depends on the location and society therein.

Also, it might be that some "cousins" are not related by blood but by marriage only,therefore making it a moot point.

Jim


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## Mirror Image

handlebar said:


> Not at all. Incest is by definition an immediate family member. Cousin marriage is even now still common in many places and legal. All depends on the location and society therein.
> 
> Also, it might be that some "cousins" are not related by blood but by marriage only,therefore making it a moot point.
> 
> Jim


In that case, I've got a cousin I would like to marry. She is quite the looker. 

I'm kidding of course or am I? The world will never know.


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## handlebar

It also amazes me that the vocal GLBT groups are setting special categories aside for themselves.
I noticed this even more blatantly when looking through applications to add to my ipod touch. Here i see a couple of "gay" radio station apps. What type of music would one consider "gay"? Why would they have their own "style" of music as there are no actual types that define a gay person or not? Maybe it would be the commercials in between the songs that are geared toward those with that lifestyle Not sure.
But I consider it a bit much when gay composer is listed as being accessible and understandable only to gay men and women.

Jim


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## Edward Elgar

handlebar said:


> Not at all. Incest is by definition an immediate family member. Cousin marriage is even now still common in many places and legal. All depends on the location and society therein.


Yes, but first cousins still have enough genetic similarities to risk the birth mutant offspring! That's why I'd consider it to be interest; not healthy.

Picking up on an earlier point made in the thread, yes, the society you live in determines if you are homophobically repressed. There's a lot of people in the "Bible Belt" who would be lynched if they came out of the closet!

Thank god Tchaikovsky had his music to express his emotional turmoil, although in a rather dubious documenary it was suggested he secretly romanced with other gay comrades!

Does anyone else find it ironic that a "criminal" in Russia's eyes became possibly the greatest artistic mind in the entire history of the nation. Mind you, Russia has always been able to squeese the genius out of artists via social and political supression.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you are a hetrosexual British composer you might as well give up now!


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## Tapkaara

Again, I have always mused that the emotional impact in Tchaikovsky is the musical expression of deeply repressed emotions. Seems like Elgar agrees with me that this very well could be the case with him.

Hehehe, yeah, Russia sure has had a history or repressing and scaring the hell out of some of its greatest artists, in particular, composers. It great though, isn't it, that despite sociatal/political odds, the artists eventually won as their music lives on and resonates while the repressors are long gone.


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## handlebar

Edward Elgar said:


> At the other end of the spectrum, if you are a hetrosexual British composer you might as well give up now!


Now that's funny. Add to that an American composer in Hollywood.

Jim


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## Guest

handlebar said:


> Not at all. Incest is by definition an immediate family member. Cousin marriage is even now still common in many places and legal. All depends on the location and society therein.
> 
> Also, it might be that some "cousins" are not related by blood but by marriage only,therefore making it a moot point.
> 
> Jim


 I do not want to go off topic but can I just say that I am sure it is practised in many countries but that does not change any thing, incest also known as inbreeding usually sets a threshold at the level of first-cousin mating (Thornhill 1993).

Statutes passed in the early 20th centuries made inbreeding and marriages to the first cousin level illegal in the majority of the United States.


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## World Violist

Haha, I just remembered that Britten was gay also. Well that kind of kills the whole argument of gay peoples' music being somehow "softer" or whatever; much of Britten's output is quite the opposite.

And... Debussy was not gay. That also completely derails the argument.


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## Mirror Image

World Violist said:


> And... Debussy was not gay. That also completely derails the argument.


Oh no he wasn't he had daughter he loved very much. He wrote "Children's Corner" for her.


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## msegers

About marrying cousins, the third marriage of Jerry Lee Lewis (not exactly classical, I know) was with his thirteen year old cousin (first cousin, once removed) - about a month before his divorce with his second wife. 

Whether Debussy was gay or not, his having a daughter proves nothing. Bernstein and Wilde (both of whom have been mentioned in this thread) had children. Here in the southern United States there is a quip that you can recognize a gay man, because he has been married twice and has children from each marriage.


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## Margaret

*Off Topic - Cousin Marriage*

Re first cousins marrying, just read this:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2564/whats-wrong-with-cousins-marrying

It happens to be legal here in Florida.

Now, back on topic.....

Personally I've never cared what sex a composer slept with. I only care about the music they make. I've never thought that sexual orientation would have a big influence on that music, certainly not the defining influence.

Always felt sorry for people who lived (and those who still live) in times and / or places where they had to hide their sexual orientation.


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## Tapkaara

It's certainly a lot easier today for an artist to be openly gay then even 30 or 40 years ago. In Copland and Bernstein's time, to be sure, it was probably to their advantage to keep things on the down low.


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## World Violist

Okay, about Debussy, I specifically said that Debussy was NOT gay, and therefore sort of puts another nail in the coffin of "softer-edged" music belonging more to the homosexual crowd. I'm sorry I brought it up. I don't think it really has much to do with the argument at hand anyway, but still.


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## Mirror Image

World Violist said:


> Okay, about Debussy, I specifically said that Debussy was NOT gay, and therefore sort of puts another nail in the coffin of "softer-edged" music belonging more to the homosexual crowd. I'm sorry I brought it up. I don't think it really has much to do with the argument at hand anyway, but still.


Oh well I didn't say Debussy was gay either. Who said he was?

I did, however, say something about Ravel in some posts back, but I was just merely speculating given the information that I have read. None of us really know and I certainly haven't read anything about it.

By the way, you shouldn't feel sorry for ever bringing up anything, WV. I'm on your side.


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## World Violist

Mirror Image said:


> Oh well I didn't say Debussy was gay either. Who said he was?
> 
> I did, however, say something about Ravel in some posts back, but I was just merely speculating given the information that I have read. None of us really know and I certainly haven't read anything about it.
> 
> By the way, you shouldn't feel sorry for ever bringing up anything, WV. I'm on your side.


Well, it seemed that the thread was beginning to go in the direction of questioning Debussy's sexuality. As I understand it, he was somewhat of a skirt-chaser.

Ravel is very much an enigma actually, and I'm glad you brought him up. I think I read somewhere that he never had a remotely sexual relationship with anyone (save possibly a mild one in his conservatory days, but that isn't even for sure).


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## Mirror Image

World Violist said:


> Well, it seemed that the thread was beginning to go in the direction of questioning Debussy's sexuality. As I understand it, he was somewhat of a skirt-chaser.
> 
> Ravel is very much an enigma actually, and I'm glad you brought him up. I think I read somewhere that he never had a remotely sexual relationship with anyone (save possibly a mild one in his conservatory days, but that isn't even for sure).


Yes, I think the discussion about Debussy should definitely be over. He wasn't gay and he loved women.

About Ravel, as I mentioned in my earlier post a page or so back, the only person very close to him was his mother, not that there's anything at all wrong with that, but I've wondered about him for a long time.

I don't think he was, but I will give you my honest opinion: Ravel was, like many composers are, dedicated 100% to his music. He lived and breathed it. He maybe felt that having a relationship with anyone would somehow interfere with his creative impulses and he perhaps wouldn't be able to devout 100% to that partner, so that might be why he avoided relationships or at least intimate ones, but yes, he was very enigmatic and secretive about his private life and I certainly don't blame him.


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## Sid James

About *Benjamin Britten*, I read somewhere that some of his operas reflect the experiences of being an outsider. Say the main characters in _Peter Grimes _or _Death in Venice_. I guess this is true, but the sound of his music is not soft or feminine, as has been said above.

I also understand that partly due to his relationship with the tenor *Peter Pears*, Britten left the UK for the USA during the 1940's, where supposedly homosexuals were more tolerated. If anyone knows more about this, please elaborate.


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## Tapkaara

There's been a lot of devout composers through the years who have had relationships...so one never knows.


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## World Violist

Andre said:


> About *Benjamin Britten*, I read somewhere that some of his operas reflect the experiences of being an outsider. Say the main characters in _Peter Grimes _or _Death in Venice_. I guess this is true, but the sound of his music is not soft or feminine, as has been said above.
> 
> I also understand that partly due to his relationship with the tenor *Peter Pears*, Britten left the UK for the USA during the 1940's, where supposedly homosexuals were more tolerated. If anyone knows more about this, please elaborate.


Yes, the operas are definitely about being an outsider.

And as to his going to the States, that was primarily for the outbreak of World War II; both he and Pears were very strongly pacifistic, and were conscientious objectors. They returned to Britain later, so that can't be fully justified by their homosexuality.


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## confuoco

Does anybody know how it is with *Saint-Saens*? Just interested. There is some guesswork, but I never red about it in "serious" literature or encyclopedia (as I red about Britten or *Poulenc*, who were open gays) But:

http://www.glbtq.com/arts/saintsaens_c.html


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## Mirror Image

confuoco said:


> Does anybody know how it is with *Saint-Saens*? Just interested. There is some guesswork, but I never red about it in "serious" literature or encyclopedia (as I red about Britten or *Poulenc*, who were open gays) But:
> 
> http://www.glbtq.com/arts/saintsaens_c.html


I don't believe Saint-Saens was strictly homosexual, but believe he was bisexual. I've read a lot about him. He lived a very suspenseful life with the death of his children and an ex-wife that was a real (insert derogatory word here). I also think he suffered heavily from depression. There's no evidence backing this claim up of course, but I do seriously believe he was a very troubled individual with a very unstable mentality.


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## handlebar

I have "read" and heard of Saint-Saens being a pedophile but put no stock in that. He was gay though from the books and articles I have read.

http://gayfortoday.blogspot.com/2007/10/camille-saint-sans.html

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

But how many clearly gay compositions have actually been written by now? I'd say very few. The only ones I can think of are Tippett's String Quartet No.1 (Lento cantabile) and the opera Knot Garden (in which, however, one of the gay characters finds the 'right way' in the end...).


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## Tapkaara

Lisztfreak said:


> But how many clearly gay compositions have actually been written by now? I'd say very few. The only ones I can think of are Tippett's String Quartet No.1 (Lento cantabile) and the opera Knot Garden (in which, however, one of the gay characters finds the 'right way' in the end...).


I am not familiar with Tippett's output. I wonder, what is intrinsically "gay" about his String Quartet no. 1?


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## Guest

Tapkaara, you beat me to it I also am puzzled by the St Qt being labeled as* Gay.*
Re *Gay* how words change their meaning over time


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## ouled nails

Concerning Saint-Saens, I do not trust all of the "sexual agenda" websites that claim that so and so were gay. The claims can be based on highly circumstantial "evidence."

Before the second half of the twentieth century and into the McCarthy years (when a gay man such as Copland could easily be targeted as a national security risk because of his left-wing beliefs), so-called homosexuals were either bisexual in life or they were assumed to be gay because they never had a public relationship with a woman (e.g., Ravel).

IOW, if we don't know then it should be clearly stated as such: we don't know.....

One American composer whom we know to have been bisexual, for sure, is Henry Cowell. He spent nearly four years in jail, at the infamous San Quentin penitentiary, for the "moral" offense of having had some kind of a sexual intercourse with a seventeen year old man/boy. Cowell was the son of two bohemian parents who divorced when he was a young child. He was rather naive when he faced the law for this offense: he initially was not represented by a lawyer and wrongly assumed, in the midst of much journalistic sensationalism about his case, that he could get off on a guilty plea by confessing to other homosexual relationships. Unfortunately, the California judge, in response to all the publicity, sought to make an example of the case.

Cowell's letters from jail do not reveal any self-pity or sexual activism. Rather, he composed, taught music to other convicts, and performed on an old piano for his jail mates. Severaf friends lobbied for him to receive a pardon, but not Charles Ives who ceased to have any contact with Cowell.

The pardon he received is meaningul musically speaking because Cowell felt the need, the obligation, to become a much more conservative composer afterward. He was appointed to an important position (the Dept. of War Information?) in the federal government during World War II.

A person who knew him well stated that Cowell was never the same after his time in jail.


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## Lisztfreak

Tapkaara said:


> I am not familiar with Tippett's output. I wonder, what is intrinsically "gay" about his String Quartet no. 1?


Oh yes, the slow movement to be precise. Here's a quote:

''Sir Michael Tippett: Of his one time partner painter Wilfred Franks Tippett wrote, "Meeting with Wilf was the deepest, most shattering experience of falling in love; and I am quite certain that it was a major factor underlying the discovery of my own individual musical voice...all that love flowed out in the slow movement of my First String Quartet.''

And one can feel that it is definitely about passionate love, no matter what type of it.


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## Tapkaara

Lisztfreak said:


> Oh yes, the slow movement to be precise. Here's a quote:
> 
> ''Sir Michael Tippett: Of his one time partner painter Wilfred Franks Tippett wrote, "Meeting with Wilf was the deepest, most shattering experience of falling in love; and I am quite certain that it was a major factor underlying the discovery of my own individual musical voice...all that love flowed out in the slow movement of my First String Quartet.''
> 
> And one can feel that it is definitely about passionate love, no matter what type of it.


Thank you for clarifying, Liszt.

This sounds like an interesting work. I'll have to see it out.


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## JoeGreen

Lisztfreak said:


> Oh yes, the slow movement to be precise. Here's a quote:
> 
> ''Sir Michael Tippett: Of his one time partner painter Wilfred Franks Tippett wrote, "Meeting with Wilf was the deepest, most shattering experience of falling in love; and I am quite certain that it was a major factor underlying the discovery of my own individual musical voice...all that love flowed out in the slow movement of my First String Quartet.''
> 
> And one can feel that it is definitely about passionate love, no matter what type of it.


but there wouldn't actually be anything music wise ( use of the Lydian mode a little too much etc.) that would distinguish it from say a piece that represents heterosexual love, other than the composer saying so.


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## Tapkaara

JoeGreen said:


> but there wouldn't actually be anything music wise ( use of the Lydian mode a little too much etc.) that would distinguish it from say a piece that represents heterosexual love, other than the composer saying so.


Very good point, Joe.

Stravinsky said "Music is incapable of expresing anything but itself."


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## Lisztfreak

JoeGreen said:


> but there wouldn't actually be anything music wise ( use of the Lydian mode a little too much etc.) that would distinguish it from say a piece that represents heterosexual love, other than the composer saying so.


Of course. If the composer said otherwise, we would hear it otherwise. The programmatic dimension of a work is one of the most important. For me, it's hard to listen to a musical piece without imagining a certain story that goes with it - if there's no such thing offered by the composer, then I make up my own. Only a few pieces of music I can hear as just pure, 'absolute' music without anything else around.

The String Quartet we're discussing is a very nice work. Tippett's earliest acknowledged composition, together with the Piano Sonata No.1, and it's very lyrical. The first movement is rather harsh and _grave_, the second is this passionate and nostalgic Lento, and the third a dance-movement of impetuous energy with additive rhythms. Quite easy to grasp, the work is.


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## Guest

Lisztfreak said:


> Of course. If the composer said otherwise, we would hear it otherwise. .


Quite correct, meaning is in the mind of the listener.


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## shsherm

I remember reading the article referred to in the first post because I was living in the Dallas area at the time. I often saw Scott Cantrell at concerts and spoke with him frequently. I might point out that many creative people were or are gay and I wonder if there is a genetic component to creativity and being gay. I recently read in The LA Times that some behavioral charecteristics are inherited and there is a likely relationship of the genes which cause Ashkenazic Jews to have higher average intelligence than other groups with a possible genetic inheritance of the genes that cause certain diseases such a Tay-Sachs. Now hypotheses but perhaps someday facts.


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## Tapkaara

shsherm said:


> I remember reading the article referred to in the first post because I was living in the Dallas area at the time. I often saw Scott Cantrell at concerts and spoke with him frequently. I might point out that many creative people were or are gay and I wonder if there is a genetic component to creativity and being gay. I recently read in The LA Times that some behavioral charecteristics are inherited and there is a likely relationship of the genes which cause Ashkenazic Jews to have higher average intelligence than other groups with a possible genetic inheritance of the genes that cause certain diseases such a Tay-Sachs. Now hypotheses but perhaps someday facts.


I remember hearing a radio report (on the BBC, I think) about the high intelligence and creativity of Ashkenazy Jew. Perhaps that is true, and perhaps there in something in gay people that gives them a propensity for creativity. But there are lots of creative heterosexuals, too. So, I think the sexual orientation probably has little to do with it.

(There are smart non-Ashkenazy Jews, too!)


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## Guest

*shsherm* I have wondered the same thing [gay=creative] I do not know many but those that admit to being gay are certainly in the artistic grouping.


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## handlebar

ouled nails said:


> Concerning Saint-Saens, I do not trust all of the "sexual agenda" websites that claim that so and so were gay. The claims can be based on highly circumstantial "evidence."
> 
> Before the second half of the twentieth century and into the McCarthy years (when a gay man such as Copland could easily be targeted as a national security risk because of his left-wing beliefs), so-called homosexuals were either bisexual in life or they were assumed to be gay because they never had a public relationship with a woman (e.g., Ravel).
> 
> IOW, if we don't know then it should be clearly stated as such: we don't know.....
> 
> One American composer whom we know to have been bisexual, for sure, is Henry Cowell. He spent nearly four years in jail, at the infamous San Quentin penitentiary, for the "moral" offense of having had some kind of a sexual intercourse with a seventeen year old man/boy. Cowell was the son of two bohemian parents who divorced when he was a young child. He was rather naive when he faced the law for this offense: he initially was not represented by a lawyer and wrongly assumed, in the midst of much journalistic sensationalism about his case, that he could get off on a guilty plea by confessing to other homosexual relationships. Unfortunately, the California judge, in response to all the publicity, sought to make an example of the case.
> 
> Cowell's letters from jail do not reveal any self-pity or sexual activism. Rather, he composed, taught music to other convicts, and performed on an old piano for his jail mates. Severaf friends lobbied for him to receive a pardon, but not Charles Ives who ceased to have any contact with Cowell.
> 
> The pardon he received is meaningful musically speaking because Cowell felt the need, the obligation, to become a much more conservative composer afterward. He was appointed to an important position (the Dept. of War Information?) in the federal government during World War II.
> 
> A person who knew him well stated that Cowell was never the same after his time in jail.


Thanks for that post about Cowell. I did not know the background of his imprisonment.
He serbed his time and continued life as a composer after release as well. As for their sexual activism, I feel many are rather intelligent in that regard,keeping their sex lives in the bedroom and not splashed on the front pages of the worlds media pages. We don't need to know as far as that goes.

Cowell has composed some very nice pieces. The Naxos series is one I would recommend.

I also appreciate the comment above that many so called "gay" men and women were in fact Bi-sexual due to the fact that they never appeared in public with the opposite sex or married. A very valid point. Today's society seems to always want to label a person as "gay" no matter what even though I bet the majority like both genders.

Jim


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## Lisztfreak

handlebar said:


> Today's society seems to always want to label a person as "gay" no matter what even though I bet the majority like both genders.


It's because that is very 'popular' - here where I live there's been a lot of talk about homosexuality over the past years, because my country is in a transitional phase from conservative tradition to more West-European-like liberalism. So at present, you can hear the word 'gay' at least 5 times a day.


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## Air

Lisztfreak said:


> It's because that is very 'popular' - here where I live there's been a lot of talk about homosexuality over the past years, because my country is in a transitional phase from conservative tradition to more West-European-like liberalism. So at present, you can hear the word 'gay' at least 5 times a day.


Oh, yeah, it's the universal word over here where I live.


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## confuoco

airad2 said:


> Oh, yeah, it's the universal word over here where I live.


Of course, Gay Area, California


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## Lisztfreak

Personally, I think neither Britten nor Tippett (for example) would have written the music they did had they not been gay. Because it's thoroughly a part of one's personality.


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## matsoljare

I wonder why they don't mention Pierre Boulez? Guess he doesn't fit into their theory.. 

http://myislandelysium.blogspot.com/2008/03/joyeux-anniversaire-pierre-boulez.html
http://www.overgrownpath.com/2007/07/boulez-great-bogeyman-of-20th-century.html
http://skittlesmaze.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-pierre-boulez-gay-im-sorry-ive.html
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.classical.recordings/2007-07/msg02390.html


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## handlebar

matsoljare said:


> I wonder why they don't mention Pierre Boulez? Guess he doesn't fit into their theory..
> 
> http://myislandelysium.blogspot.com/2008/03/joyeux-anniversaire-pierre-boulez.html
> http://www.overgrownpath.com/2007/07/boulez-great-bogeyman-of-20th-century.html
> http://skittlesmaze.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-pierre-boulez-gay-im-sorry-ive.html
> http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.classical.recordings/2007-07/msg02390.html


I learn something new every day. I didn't know PB was gay. Some have kept their personals lives so personal that one never knows. That's the way it should be in my humble opinion.
Personal.

Jim


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## TooLittleTooLate

*You've gotta be kidding me*



Aramis said:


> Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, most of his life he was in ralationship with women.


Just found this site, so I realize I'm two years late in replying to this post, but whoever Aramis is, he or she needs to do some serious looking into Tchaikovsky's biography. He was gay by his own admission. He hastily and ill-advisedly married a student who was enamored with him, telling her upfront that he would never be able to consummate the relationship sexually. She either didn't understand or chose not to believe him, thinking that eventually she could "change" him. I don't blame her. She was young and blinded by love. I blame Tchaikovsky for acting unethically and irresponsibly. He wanted to appear "normal" to family and society, but that's no excuse. His family and those who were close to him, like Anton Rubinstein, knew about his sexual orientation anyway and it was no big deal. Tchaikovsky tortured himself over it needlessly. Anyway, his new wife tried repeatedly to force him into conjual relations, causing Tchaikovsky to suffer a nervous breakdown. Rubinstein finally confronted the wife and told her point blank that her husband was not interested in her in that way, and a separation was arranged. It ended up costing the family a good deal of money to be rid of her, and due to Russian law at the time, the couple never officially divorced, but they never saw each other again. None of this is made up. You can read it in any biography of Tchaikovsky's life.


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## TooLittleTooLate

handlebar said:


> I learn something new every day. I didn't know PB was gay. Some have kept their personals lives so personal that one never knows. That's the way it should be in my humble opinion.
> Personal.
> 
> Jim


Boulez gay? That's the least of it. Someone called him "modern music's Mengele." It's for that, not being gay, that he should be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed.


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## regressivetransphobe

I'm not really PC, but it was pretty tasteless of whoever said that to compare music he doesn't like to institutionalized human experimentation


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## PhillipPark

Regarding Tchaikovsky, what ToolittleTooLate said. 

Tchaikovsky had relationships with students as well as one of his own nephews.


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## Huilunsoittaja

TooLittleTooLate said:


> Just found this site, so I realize I'm two years late in replying to this post, but whoever Aramis is, he or she needs to do some serious looking into Tchaikovsky's biography. He was gay by his own admission. He hastily and ill-advisedly married a student who was enamored with him, telling her upfront that he would never be able to consummate the relationship sexually. She either didn't understand or chose not to believe him, thinking that eventually she could "change" him. I don't blame her. She was young and blinded by love. I blame Tchaikovsky for acting unethically and irresponsibly. He wanted to appear "normal" to family and society, but that's no excuse. His family and those who were close to him, like Anton Rubinstein, knew about his sexual orientation anyway and it was no big deal. Tchaikovsky tortured himself over it needlessly. Anyway, his new wife tried repeatedly to force him into conjual relations, causing Tchaikovsky to suffer a nervous breakdown. Rubinstein finally confronted the wife and told her point blank that her husband was not interested in her in that way, and a separation was arranged. It ended up costing the family a good deal of money to be rid of her, and due to Russian law at the time, the couple never officially divorced, but they never saw each other again. None of this is made up. You can read it in any biography of Tchaikovsky's life.


Since you are new, I'll just give you a heads up. That was Aramis. Aramis is notorious for saying ridiculous or sarcastic stuff around here, and not necessarily telling his own ideas and opinions. I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of his jokes.


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## Vazgen

TooLittleTooLate said:


> Boulez gay? That's the least of it. Someone called him "modern music's Mengele." It's for that, not being gay, that he should be arrested, tried, convicted, and executed.


I agree with regressivetransphobe, this is way past wrong. Boulez was a callous jerk back in the day, but comparing him to Mengele and calling for his murder is unfair.

-Vaz


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## samurai

How does anybody liken Boulez or any other human being--musician, non-musician, gay or straight--to the monsters that Mengele and the rest of his Nazi brethren represent? It just beggars the imagination that any decent, moral human being would be able to even think of such a comparision--let alone voice it! I am all for free speech and the free expression of ideas and opinions, but this is really beyond the pale!
I am in complete agreement with rt and Vazgen.


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## superhorn

You really can't make any sweeping generalizations about the "styles" of composers who happen to be gay or were when they were alive. Their sexual preference is irrelevant ; you have to judge their works on their individual merits purely as music.


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## superhorn

Leonard Bernstein was bi-sexual. He was married to the Chilean-born actress Felician Montealegre for many years until she died and had three children.


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## Guest

superhorn, perhaps you could have expressed that differently


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## Serge

Are these generally considered to be mainly Romantics or Modernists, I wonder?


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## Serge

Andante said:


> superhorn, perhaps you could have expressed that differently


Haha. On the bright side, I think I am starting to understand better what being bisexual really means.


----------



## Aksel

Serge said:


> Are these generally considered to be mainly Romantics or Modernists, I wonder?


I think we _know_ about the homosexuality of more modernists (from the turn of the last century and forwards) than we do about Romantics, but I think that is because homosexuality has become more and more socially acceptable over the years. There are probably bucketloads of gay pre-Romantic composers that we will never know were gay because they never dared say it to anyone.


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## Sid James

I'm not sure if it kind of talks to the USA's (relative?) tolerance or acceptance of non-hetero people, but here's a list (from what I know) of classical composers from there who were in this way -

Copland, Barber (& his partner, Giancarlo Menotti), David Diamond, Ned Rorem were/are homosexual.
Bernstein was bisexual, Wikipedia says of Harry Partch that most of his romantic relationships were with men.

Googling on this topic, I even came across a CD exclusively devoted to homosexual composers of the USA (I haven't heard of any of them except David Del Tredici & Ned Rorem (their music has been performed live here Down Under, but I didn't go to those concerts) & even their music I haven't actually heard) :

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=6264

Robert Helps
Lee Hoiby
Lou Harrison
Chester Biscardi
Ned Rorem 
David Del Tredici 
Robert Maggio 
Conrad Cummings 
William Hibbard
Jerry Hunt
Chris DeBlasio










Another thing that springs to mind is that I came across (in passing) a comment in _The Rough Guide to Classical Music_ that it is speculated that *Schubert* was bisexual or homosexual. I mentioned this to someone & they said it basically makes no difference with regards to the appreciation of the man's music, which I guess in the end, is correct...


----------



## violadude

Sid James said:


> I'm not sure if it kind of talks to the USA's (relative?) tolerance or acceptance of non-hetero people, but here's a list (from what I know) of classical composers from there who were in this way -
> 
> Copland, Barber (& his partner, Giancarlo Menotti), David Diamond, Ned Rorem were/are homosexual.
> Bernstein was bisexual, Wikipedia says of Harry Partch that most of his romantic relationships were with men.
> 
> Googling on this topic, I even came across a CD exclusively devoted to homosexual composers of the USA (I haven't heard of any of them except David Del Tredici & Ned Rorem (their music has been performed live here Down Under, but I didn't go to those concerts) & even their music I haven't actually heard) :
> 
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=6264
> 
> Robert Helps
> Lee Hoiby
> Lou Harrison
> Chester Biscardi
> Ned Rorem
> David Del Tredici
> Robert Maggio
> Conrad Cummings
> William Hibbard
> Jerry Hunt
> Chris DeBlasio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing that springs to mind is that I came across (in passing) a comment in _The Rough Guide to Classical Music_ that it is speculated that *Schubert* was bisexual or homosexual. I mentioned this to someone & they said it basically makes no difference with regards to the appreciation of the man's music, which I guess in the end, is correct...


In a way, I'm glad that composers (or people in general) don't have to feel ashamed of who they are in many parts of the world. On the other hand though, I don't see why being gay has to be part of a composers identity as a composer. Why label them as GAY composer. To us, they are just composers like everyone else, first and foremost.


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## regressivetransphobe

The annoying thing about that CD is that it shows cynical, transparent marketing at its finest. "Gay" means monochrome photos of shirtless Abercrombie models in unbuttoned pants, right? I thought it was just another way some people love each other, but y'know, you learn something new every day.


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## Aksel

regressivetransphobe said:


> The annoying thing about that CD is that it shows cynical, transparent marketing at its finest.* "Gay" means monochrome photos of shirtless Abercrombie models in unbuttoned pants, right?* I thought it was just another way some people love each other, but y'know, you learn something new every day.


Why yes, that is how we all look. I thought that was common knowledge.


----------



## Serge

Aksel said:


> I think we _know_ about the homosexuality of more modernists (from the turn of the last century and forwards) than we do about Romantics, but I think that is because homosexuality has become more and more socially acceptable over the years. There are probably bucketloads of gay pre-Romantic composers that we will never know were gay because they never dared say it to anyone.


OK, so must mostly be Avant-garde composers then, for all we _know_. Cool!

Never heard of any of the names on that long list above, as a matter of fact. That is most likely to point toward Avant-garde as well.


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## Aksel

Serge said:


> OK, so must mostly be Avant-garde composers then, for all we _know_. Cool!
> 
> Never heard of any of the names on that long list above, as a matter of fact. That is most likely to point toward Avant-garde as well.


Well, a lot of the really great Americans of the last century (Copland, Bernstein, Barber et al.) were most definitely gay (or at least bisexual) have become household names. But I only recognised one name on the list of composers on that CD, and I haven't heard his music, I've just read his name somewhere.


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## Guest

Hans Werner Henze has certainly written some thorny music, so I don't think homosexuality softened his style.


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## regressivetransphobe

I'd point anyone who thinks gay people are predisposed to "softer" (or any sort of) music to Cecil Taylor.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

John Cage was bisexual, wasn't he? Or at least he had a homosexual relationship with some guy named Don Sample before getting married (to a woman). Details appear sketchy but if you do a search, it's there. Anyone refute this?


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## Huilunsoittaja

Aren't we finding a correlation here?


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## tdc

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Aren't we finding a correlation here?


What might that correlation be?


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## Meaghan

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Aren't we finding a correlation here?


Not between homosexuality and avant-garde music, if that's what you mean. Plenty of famous gay, lesbian, and bisexual composers have written (part of the time or all of the time) in conservative or romantic or neo-romantic styles. Including, just off the top of my head, Tcaikovsky, Ethel Smyth, Samuel Barber, Benjamin Britten, Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, Jennifer Higdon, and John Corigliano.


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## tdc

Great composers (just a few off the top of my head) who (as far as I know) were NOT gay:

Bach
Beethoven
Mozart
Debussy
Bartok
Mahler
Wagner
Mendelssohn
Brahms
Dvorak
Schumann

etc etc.

Of course we can't know for sure on many composers, however I think it is pretty silly to suggest any kind of correlation between being gay and artistic genius.


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## Argus

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> John Cage was bisexual, wasn't he? Or at least he had a homosexual relationship with some guy named Don Sample before getting married (to a woman). Details appear sketchy but if you do a search, it's there. Anyone refute this?


He was married to a woman early in his life but he was in a relationship (both romantic and professional) with the dancer and choreographer Merce Cunningham for most of his life.



regressivetransphobe said:


> I'd point anyone who thinks gay people are predisposed to "softer" (or any sort of) music to Cecil Taylor.


Or Rob Halford.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Meaghan said:


> Not between homosexuality and avant-garde music, if that's what you mean. Plenty of famous gay, lesbian, and bisexual composers have written (part of the time or all of the time) in conservative or romantic or neo-romantic styles. Including, just off the top of my head, Tcaikovsky, Ethel Smyth, Samuel Barber, Benjamin Britten, Aaron Copland, Leonard Bernstein, Jennifer Higdon, and John Corigliano.


You have Poulenc too. Whom I absolutely respect.

I've always seen Musicians as being the most Common Graced people on earth. But it also seems they are the ones in the most pain, probably because they feel more than average people. How much I want to reach out to them!


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## Noak

Julius Eastman is the first one that springs to mind.


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## waldvogel

Marc Blitzstein was one of Leonard Bernstein's teachers and a well-known composer in his own right. Besides being gay, he was also a left-wing radical and member of the Communist Party in the U.S. This didn't present much of a problem until the end of World War II, but caused him grief in the 1950's when he was investigated on these grounds.

The only Blitzstein music that I've heard are excerpts from The Cradle Will Rock (1936). You can hear Bernstein in the music... here's an excerpt.






Blitzstein was murdered in 1964 when visiting Martinique. Apparently he made advances to three Portuguese sailors, who lured him into a trap, beat him, robbed him, and left him half-naked to die in an alleyway.


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## Sid James

waldvogel said:


> Besides being gay, he was also a left-wing radical and member of the Communist Party in the U.S. This didn't present much of a problem until the end of World War II, but caused him grief in the 1950's when he was investigated on these grounds.


*Aaron Copland* was the same politically speaking (he was also a member of the Communist Party) & felt out in the cold quite a bit in the McCarthyist era. His_ Lincoln Address_ was not performed at President Eisenhower's inauguration as originally planned, due to Copland's political stance. *Bernstein* himself was also left-leaning (but I'm not sure if he was a member of the Communist Party) & his phone was tapped by the FBI during this period. One only needs to listen to some of the lyrics of _West Side Story _ - especially the songs "America" & "Dear Officer Krupke" (& the original version of_ Candide_, I have read) to clearly see that Bernstein was quite critical of things that were going on in American society & politics at that time...


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## Meaghan

Sid James said:


> *Bernstein* himself was also left-leaning (but I'm not sure if he was a member of the Communist Party) & his phone was tapped by the FBI during this period. One only needs to listen to some of the lyrics of _West Side Story _ - especially the songs "America" & "Dear Officer Krupke" (& the original version of_ Candide_, I have read) to clearly see that Bernstein was quite critical of things that were going on in American society & politics at that time...


Bernstein also got a lot of flak for hosting an event to raise money for the legal defenses of several Black Panthers.

And Nixon didn't like him much.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/08/ross-bernstein.html


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## Sid James

@ Meaghan - that was a very enlightening article. I knew Bernstein's _Mass_ drew ire from the Vatican, but I didn't know President Nixon also hated it. Reading that article, it was clear the Nixon was quite the homophobe. He was more concerned with what Bernstein did rather than his music (eg. kissing the performers, including the guys, after the show). Also anti-Semitism - Nixon noting the "Jewish name" of critic Harold C. Schonberg. It seems that Nixon was more of a complete douchebag than I had thought before. & re supporting the Black Panthers - Lenny went out on a limb there, imo, but I feel that maybe the man was just being a bit of a "stirrer," he deliberately wanted to discomfit the conservatives...


----------



## Meaghan

Sid James said:


> It seems that Nixon was more of a complete douchebag than I had thought before.


Ha, yes he was! A rather distasteful fellow all around.


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## Tapkaara

I didn't realize Copland was a communist. Sorta makes you question his "americana," doesn't it? Not saying you have to be exclusively centrist or right-leaning to be a proud American, but the fact that his political beliefs would have been more in line with the Soviet Union as opposed to his own country is disturbing. Maybe he should have composed a Lenin Portrait.


----------



## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> I didn't realize Copland was a communist. Sorta makes you question his "americana," doesn't it


I'm not sure about that. Many intellectuals in the West were left-leaning at the time. The Depression years especially caused a rift between those allied to left wing and right wing politics. People like Copland were simply questioning how the USA was being run in the aftermath of "Black Friday," the dramatic & far reaching stock market crash of 1929 that ushered in the Great Depression which lasted till about 1941 (the year, incidentally or not, that the USA entered WW2). In his famous "Americana" pieces you refer to, Copland was trying to reach out to the "average" or "common" person, with music that was relevant and also modern. It was both familiar & new. This was a world-wide trend (in a way) guys like Weill/Brecht & Hanns Eisler were doing this in Germany during the Weimar years (but they were more overtly political), before they were forced to flee due to the Nazis (Weill & Eisler fled to the USA, by the way, & both composed things in English, so they adapted, & Eisler, during the McCarthyist "witchhunts" was deported due to his Communist beliefs). You must have read Arthur Miller's play _The Crucible_, which by referring back to the actual witchhunts in Massachusetts in colonial era, made a potent comment on what was happening in American politics in the mid-c20th. Is that play any less validly "American" due to Miller's obvious leftist beliefs? Or the same with the visual arts, painters like Ben Shahn imaged things like the Sacco & Vanzetti trial (another right wing "witchhunt" resulting in these guy's executions).



> Not saying you have to be exclusively centrist or right-leaning to be a proud American, but the fact that his political beliefs would have been more in line with the Soviet Union as opposed to his own country is disturbing.


You make the assumption that the right is more "American" than the left. Don't forget that there are/were many types of Communist/leftist ideologies, the same with so-called centrist or rightist ones (if we want to use "boxes"). Just look at what happened in the Spanish Civil War of the 1930's - a lot of leftists went there to fight Franco's fascists, but they couldn't unite - some were Stalinists, some were centrist-leftists, some were Leninists, Trotskyists, Socialists, and so on. They were all different shades of pink rather than all "red-rag" Communists.



> Maybe he should have composed a Lenin Portrait.


I doubt that Copland was a Leninist, or a Stalinist for that matter. I'd say that his politics were more in line with Democratic Socialist values, perhaps a bit like President F.D.Roosevelt, but maybe somewhat more to the left. FDR's "new deal" bought howls of protests from the right, saying that by providing some sort of social welfare or building up the national infrastructure, he was bordering on the Communist. I'd hazard a guess that similar things are probably said of President Obama today, the right are probably not happy with him attempting to do things like withdraw out of Iraq or "fix" the appallingly outdated and harmful US health system. It seems that anyone who tries to improve US society (or even believes that it exists - remember when British PM Margaret Thatcher said that there is no such thing as a society, just an economy?) they are accused of being Communist. It's the oldest trick in the book, especially in the USA, and during the 1950's with McCarthy it got really ugly. As I said, even Copland's _Lincoln Portrait_ was supressed for quite a while. The US government then were clearly not "democratic" in doing things like this (or tapping Bernstein's phone), they were almost as bad as the Soviets.

BTW - I read that Sibelius was rooting for German victory in WW2 - at least he made a speech to German troops to that effect - his politics may have been "in line" with the conservative Finnish government of the time (under Baron Mannerheim) but do they appear "logical" to us now? Certainly not. I have much less problems with Copland's or others avowed Communism (although I am not a Communist or anything like that, anyway I think these "labels" belong to the dustbin of history), but I am somewhat troubled by Sibelius' stance, even though it is clear he was thinking that the Germans were better for Finland than the Russians would be (in his mind, to his way of thinking, anyway)...


----------



## samurai

It should also never be forgotten that we were *allies *with the Soviet Union during the Second World War. Aaron Copland was as good and loyal an American as you or I; it was never proved otherwise, despite the odious smear campaign waged by Mcarthy and his minions like Roy Cohn. Let's not start deporting people or condemning them on the basis of some demagogue calling them names and casting aspersions on their character and loyalty. As GoneBaroque so aptly points out, many loyal Americans--for economic and philosophical reasons--in revulsion at the way unbridled capitalism was throttling the working class--joined the Communist Party at atime when the Soviet Union was our ally. Many of them realized--after the brutality of Stalin and his henchmen had been revealed to the world--that they had indeed been misguided. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water, here; they were still good well-meaning Americans who disliked the economic inequality they saw all around them.
And so, to the member who made the wise crack that Copland should have written a Lenin rather than a Lincoln portrait, no sale, at least for this American. Nice try, though.


----------



## Tapkaara

samurai said:


> It should also never be forgotten that we were *allies *with the Soviet Union during the Second World War. Aaron Copland was as good and loyal an American as you or I; it was never proved otherwise, despite the odious smear campaign waged by Mcarthy and his minions like Roy Cohn. Let's not start deporting people or condemning them on the basis of some demagogue calling them names and casting aspersions on their character and loyalty. As GoneBaroque so aptly points out, many loyal Americans--for economic and philosophical reasons--in revulsion at the way unbridled capitalism was throttling the working class--joined the Communist Party at atime when the Soviet Union was our ally. Many of them realized--after the brutality of Stalin and his henchmen had been revealed to the world--that they had indeed been misguided. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water, here; they were still good well-meaning Americans who disliked the economic inequality they saw all around them.
> And so, to the member who made the wise crack that Copland should have written a Lenin rather than a Lincoln portrait, no sale, at least for this American. Nice try, though.


We were also enemies with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and for a much longer time than we were their allies during WWII.

I am not going to derail this thread...after all, I created it. So the final thing I will say is that the ideals of Communism are very much at odds with the ideals of the United States. After all, the Cold War did not come about because the US and the Soviets were ideologically compatible. The fact that Mr Americana himself, Aaron Copland, was a communist just has a slight tinge of irony to me. TO ME. And perhaps indeed he was misguided, as your post suggests. I would never throw a baby out with the bath water. I'd be arrested for child abuse and be sent to a gulag in Siberia. There, the bath water is FROZEN.

And the Lenin Portrait remark was very tongue-in-cheek.

And that's all I have to say on this in this thread. Maybe we should open a "Copland the Commie" thread to really get the pot stirring!

By the way, did I mention Copland was gay?


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## Tapkaara

Actually, I will say one more thing. One of my all-time favorite composers, Khachaturian, was a devout communist and actually DID write a piece in commemoration of Lenin. It's a cool piece, by the way.

He was not gay. He was an Armenian that grew up in Georgia and studied music in Russia.


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## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> I am not going to derail this thread...


No, we won't, not a good idea, but we can still question your opinions.



> The fact that Mr Americana himself, Aaron Copland, was a communist just has a slight tinge of irony to me.


Not to me, really. At least Copland joined the Communist Party of America (which had little to do with it's Soviet counterpart) because of his beliefs. Unlike say Shostakovich who was virtually forced into membership of the Soviet Communist Party in the early 1960's (just listen to his 8th string quartet for "evidence" of how he felt about that - he was suicidal). If Copland felt he was doing the right thing & it sat well with him, his conscience, his beliefs, etc. then what's the problem? Nothing at all, imo.



> Maybe we should open a "Copland the Commie" thread to really get the pot stirring!


Or a "Sibelius the Nazi sympathiser" thread? (this is also "tounge in cheek," but "food for thought" re composer's politics, nevertheless, but if you want to reply, better take it to the composer's politics thread, of which there are a few, I think  )...


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## Sid James

Tapkaara said:


> Actually, I will say one more thing. One of my all-time favorite composers, Khachaturian, was a devout communist and actually DID write a piece in commemoration of Lenin. It's a cool piece, by the way.


I think your love of Khatchaturian demonstrates that good music CAN (& perhaps should as well?) be separated somewhat from the politics (or sexuality for that matter) or the composer. Things can get very complex in politics, anyway. Eg. despite Khatchaturian's avowed & demonstrated Communism, he was still chastised for being "formalist" in 1948 (formalism was a wishy-washy deliberately vague term used to describe any music the party big-wigs didn't like). Shostakovich's _Babi Yar_ Symphony was also supressed as it didn't "fit" well with the politics of the Soviet government, even though by then he had joined the Communist Party there. These guys really couldn't "win" in these kinds of situations. Double-speak is the word here for sure.

Anyway, I used to judge composers (including Shostakovich) for their politics, but now that I realise that I was misguided in doing this, I hardly ever bother doing that now (or at least try not to). Guys like R. Strauss, Orff, Gieseking, Bohm, Webern and others clearly toadied to the Nazis, & Karajan & Schwarzkopf were members of the Nazi Party, but does this affect our appreciation of their music today? Probably not or at least very little. Americans like Bernstein, Copland or Blitzstein mentioned above, were no less authentic in what they did in musical terms in relation to what they believed in political ones. In any case, listen to the lyrics of songs like "America" & "Gee, Officer Krupke" in Bernstein's _West Side Story_, and his leftist politics definitely added to & not detracted from that great work. If he had "toned down" his politics in these songs, we would be much more the poorer for that, imo. Beethoven could still be a Republican (from what we know of his politics, which is probably negligible) & write the _Eroica_ symphony, and yet at the same time be funded by the aristocracy who commissioned many (or most?) of his works. I could go on & on, but I won't. Their music stands as monuments to them, not their politics. As for agitprop things like the opera version of _And Quiet Flows the Don_, these things are now kind of irrelevant not necessarily due to their politics, but more in terms of what they added to or enriched musical culture (which was probably very little). As far as Khatchaturian's works were concerned, such as the ballet _Gayaneh_ - the story of which is pure 1930's agitprop - or say Myaskovsky's _Collective Farms_ symphony - these things are still worth hearing today, despite their outdated politics, due to their musical value alone.



> He was an Armenian that grew up in Georgia and studied music in Russia.


Yes he was great, & we remember him for the musical impact he made - eg. those unique harmonies in his music - rather than his politics...


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## Meaghan

Sid James said:


> In any case, listen to the lyrics of songs like "America" & "Gee, Officer Krupke" in Bernstein's _West Side Story_, and his leftist politics definitely added to & not detracted from that great work. If he had "toned down" his politics in these songs, we would be much more the poorer for that, imo.


Though the lyrics were by Sondheim (another liberal), not Bernstein. But with Bernstein's input and approval, of course.


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## kv466

I don't know if it really matters or made any kind of difference...gay, white, fat, italian, lithuanian, black or blue...if you can compose great music, you can compose great music


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## Tapkaara

Sid James suggested opening a "Sibelius the Nazi Sympathizer" thread. No need for discussion on that. He was, without any doubt, a viciously devout friend of the NSDAP. And I have the photo to prove it.


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## samurai

Tapkaara said:


> We were also enemies with the Soviet Union during the Cold War, and for a much longer time than we were their allies during WWII.
> 
> I am not going to derail this thread...after all, I created it. So the final thing I will say is that the ideals of Communism are very much at odds with the ideals of the United States. After all, the Cold War did not come about because the US and the Soviets were ideologically compatible. The fact that Mr Americana himself, Aaron Copland, was a communist just has a slight tinge of irony to me. TO ME. And perhaps indeed he was misguided, as your post suggests. I would never throw a baby out with the bath water. I'd be arrested for child abuse and be sent to a gulag in Siberia. There, the bath water is FROZEN.
> 
> And the Lenin Portrait remark was very tongue-in-cheek.
> 
> And that's all I have to say on this in this thread. Maybe we should open a "Copland the Commie" thread to really get the pot stirring!
> 
> By the way, did I mention Copland was gay?


@Tapkaara, The time period when Copland and others like him joined the CP of America was precisely when we were Allies with the Soviets, not during the Cold War, when, obviously we were sworn and bitter enemies. That is also why the demagoguery and smear tactics of McCarthy and his ilk were so reprehensible; they knew full well that a lot of people who had joined during the prior period of friendship with Russia were no longer members once the Cold War began. However, such a small fact as this didn't deter them in their witchhunts and character assassinations of many good and perfectly loyal Americans, who were now "black-listed" and therefore denied a means of earning a living for many years to come. Many of these people were in the music and film industry, such as Copland and Kazan, to name but a few of his victims. Overall, I don't think it's a particularly shining moment in American history.


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## Tapkaara

samurai said:


> @Tapkaara, The time period when Copland and others like him joined the CP of America was precisely when we were Allies with the Soviets, not during the Cold War, when, obviously we were sworn and bitter enemies. That is also why the demagoguery and smear tactics of McCarthy and his ilk were so reprehensible; they knew full well that a lot of people who had joined during the prior period of friendship with Russia were no longer members once the Cold War began. However, such a small fact as this didn't deter them in their witchhunts and character assassinations of many good and perfectly loyal Americans, who were now "black-listed" and therefore denied a means of earning a living for many years to come. Many of these people were in the music and film industry, such as Copland and Kazan, to name but a few of his victims. Overall, I don't think it's a particularly shining moment in American history.


Good points.


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## Vazgen

samurai said:


> @Tapkaara, The time period when Copland and others like him joined the CP of America was precisely when we were Allies with the Soviets, not during the Cold War, when, obviously we were sworn and bitter enemies. That is also why the demagoguery and smear tactics of McCarthy and his ilk were so reprehensible; they knew full well that a lot of people who had joined during the prior period of friendship with Russia were no longer members once the Cold War began. However, such a small fact as this didn't deter them in their witchhunts and character assassinations of many good and perfectly loyal Americans, who were now "black-listed" and therefore denied a means of earning a living for many years to come. Many of these people were in the music and film industry, such as Copland and Kazan, to name but a few of his victims. Overall, I don't think it's a particularly shining moment in American history.


America likes to forget how radical the Left was at the beginning of the 20th century. Wilson was eager to send troops to Europe during WWI so he could legislate Sedition Acts to jail the leaders of the rambunctious labor movement. Roosevelt's New Deal was a desperate attempt to salvage a form of capitalism before people pursued more radical avenues of social change. Already disillusioned by the aftermath of the Russian Revolution, progressive leaders in America advocated strikes, education, and radical activity among the urban labor force. Plenty of American composers, writers, and artists supported the fight for self-determination among the working class.

Aside from the threat posed by domestic radicals, there were indeed Soviet spies in the American military and labor movement through the end of WWII. By the time McCarthy started his witch hunt in the '50s, however, Stalin was near death and the American Communist Party's influence was at a low ebb. That's why the only people McCarthy could dig up to testify in front of the House Un-American Activities Committee were screenwriters and banjo players. The anti-Communism of the 50's was little more than fear of racial unrest, fueled by resentment over the Soviets' early superiority in the Space Race.

Incidentally, Elia Kazan wasn't a "victim" of McCarthy's machinations; he named names and avoided the blacklist.

-Vaz


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## samurai

@Vazgen, You're absolutely right about Elia Kazan; my mistake. I'm sure, though that there were a lot of directors and producers --along with actors, musicians and other artists--who were in fact victimized by this disgraceful latter-day *witch hunt* and its many advocates and minions. This--along with slavery and our treatment of Native Americans--truly represents a black mark against this country.
p.s. I really like your political and societal analyses of America in the 20th Century. I'm currently reading a book entitled *The Day Wall Street Exploded*, which touches on and addresses some of the very issues which you have cited.


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## Sid James

*@ Vazgen *- What you point out happening in the USA between & after the wars happened here in Australia as well. There was a very strong labour movement here during that time as well. Most manual workers were members of one trade union or another, and these unions were naturally on the left side of the political spectrum. The unions had (& still have to some degree) strong ties with the Australian Labor Party (not a misspelling, we spell labor different here for some reason!). Some, but not many, were involved in radical politics - Communists, Trotskyists, that type of thing. After WW2 Prime Minister Gordon Menzies put a referendum to the Australian electorate, advocating formally banning the Communist Party of Australia. This didn't succeed, mainly for the reason that it would have been totally undemocratic. However, Australian security forces (ASIO) did keep many leftists under secret surveillance during the 1950's & 60's. There is a current member of the state parliament in New South Wales, Meredith Burgmann (in the Labor party) who was subjected to this in her younger days (she's in her sixties now) & I also knew someone personally who was constantly being harassed during that time for similar political reasons (they were trying to confiscate his passport, which was one of the sanctions applied to "political undesirables" back then). This all kind of largely stopped once Labor got into power in 1972, & following that, Prime Minister Gough Whitlam was the first to visit China - he met Chairman Mao sometime before President Nixon made his historic visit. Anyway, once the Cold War "thaw" started, this kind of Commie bashing was well and truly a thing of the past, although (unfortunately) some people still have a tendency to raise the "Red card" once in a while (but they are probably dinosaurs)...



Tapkaara said:


> Sid James suggested opening a "Sibelius the Nazi Sympathizer" thread. No need for discussion on that. He was, without any doubt, a viciously devout friend of the NSDAP. And I have the photo to prove it.


:lol: Well, I was only "half right" on that earlier point I made, as they say. In his book about c20th music, _The Rest Is Noise_, Alex Ross wrote this- Sibelius "*allegedly *said, in a message to Nazi troops, "I wish with all my heart that you may enjoy a speedy victory." I haven't gone as deep as to check Mr Ross' sources, but that quote by Sibelius is (as the writer points out) an *alleged* comment. It may well have been a private comment by Sibelius to an intimate friend or something like that which subsequently got "leaked," similar to what Wagner had said to his intimates (eg. Wagner once said that Jews should be locked up in a synagogue and burned - disturbing stuff in terms of what happened in Germany decades after the composer's death). I think that, given the previous domination of Finland, Sibelius would rather have had the Germans invade rather than the Soviets? But as I said, whether they said these things or not, their music stands as the most important testimony to their art, not necessarily their politics (whatever that may have been)...

Here is the chapter by Ross on Sibelius from which the above quote was taken (we MAY well have to put up a separate thread about these kinds of issues, but I believe several "composer's politics" threads exist already?) -

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2007/07/sibelius-chapte.html


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## Tapkaara

Sid James said:


> *
> 
> :lol: Well, I was only "half right" on that earlier point I made, as they say. In his book about c20th music, The Rest Is Noise, Alex Ross wrote this- Sibelius "allegedly said, in a message to Nazi troops, "I wish with all my heart that you may enjoy a speedy victory." I haven't gone as deep as to check Mr Ross' sources, but that quote by Sibelius is (as the writer points out) an alleged comment. It may well have been a private comment by Sibelius to an intimate friend or something like that, similar to what Wagner had said to his intimates (eg. Wagner once said that Jews should be locked up in a synagogue and burned - disturbing stuff in terms of what happened in Germany decades after the composer's death). But as I said, whether they said these things or not, their music stands as the most important testimony to their art, not necessarily their politics (whatever that may have been).*


*

It's hard to know if this was true or not. It's likely Sibelius said nothing of the sort, but if he did, it could have been for two main reasons:

1. The Finns had no choice but to align themselves with Germany during WWII because the Germans were against the Russians. The Russians invaded Finland twice during WWII and actually took portions of land, which are still in Russian possession today.

2. Sibelius said this (IF he said it) in order to curry favor from Germany. His main publisher, Breitkopf und Härtel, was in Germany and, in fact, Sibelius was lavished with some amount of praise by the Nazis. Sibelius was, perhaps, a little bit of an opportunist and in order to preserve his finances, stature and safety, he could have said this to look supportive.

The fact is, however, in Sibelius's personal diaries from the time, he shows obvious disgust for the Nazis.*


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## Sid James

@ Tapkaara - Points taken there, & I can easily add that I have said things in the past which I've come to regret & if famous people (like Sibelius or Wagner for that matter) say things like this (esp. to people like journalists) NOTHING is "off the record" so to speak. Celebrities in our world today often have the same problem, the media tends to remind them (unfairly?) of things from the past that they'd rather forget. As you suggest, there is a HUGE distinction between the private and public aspects of what comes out of our mouths (or what we write privately in things like diaries)...


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## pluhagr

What about John Cage, John Corigliano, Nico Muhly, and Thomas Ades?


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## elgar's ghost

Were the Soviet Union and USA as 'bitter enemies' as what we were led to believe? Most of the cold war in my lifetime seemed to revolve around ideological sabre-rattling, indoctrinating kids at an early age to 'know your enemy', space-race oneupmanship, bolstering dodgy third-world regimes in the name of sphere of influence points-scoring, trying to outdo each other at the Olympic Games (apart from 80 and 84) and presumably the odd killing here and there in the line of espionage duty. Surely 'bitter enemies' in the strict sense of the word don't have leaders with hot-lines or have their teams play ice hockey against each other - they FIGHT!

I'm not trying to cause trouble here - I'm generally interested in how serious things really were - my own memories can only go back to the early 70s although I'm aware of incidents like the Cuban Missile Crisis etc.

And apologies for not sticking to the original subject on which I've nothing to contribute beyond what has already been said.


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## Moscow-Mahler

In fact, *Tchaikovsky* was not JUST gay. As far as I know, he was in the same cathegory as the famous French writer Andre Gide - he was attracted to 16 y.o. old teenagers (!!!)

So, I suppose he was happy to be born in Tsarist Russia. In the XIX century USA he would be linched.

*Taneyev* - another Russian composer - was also gay.

*Prokofiev* - was 100 percent straight, but has a friend - his name was Max - who commited suicide, because he was in love with heterosexual Prokofiev. It was a big shock for Prokofiev. He wrote his Second Piano concert in the memory of this friend. Prokofiev was also a member of St. Petersbourg Community of the Fans of Chess. And some members of this community were gay (yes, ha-ha, I have never thought about the chess as a sexual game, but the reason was that the chess was the game for men). And some member tried to become "special friends" with Prokofiev, but Prokofiev refused, though Prokofiev took it easy.

***
Well, I suppose it is difficult to find any connection between the sexuality and the music. The theory that gay music should be less militant, aggressive, more salon-like is indefensible. The equally indefensible theory would be the opposite. One crazy psychoanalitist can say that the gay music should be more aggressive, if the composer like rough sex with bondage, Dominance and Submissive games and Military fetish (and some of gays guys are into this very much).

There is a big difference between gay writers, e.g. Oscar Wilde and Mishima or Jean Genet. I am curious what music would Mishima or Genet wrote if they were a composers.


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## aleazk

wow, I didn't know that Pierre Boulez was gay. Are you sure?, this is the first time that I hear that rumor.


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## Moscow-Mahler

About Boulez:

http://skittlesmaze.blogspot.com/2005/10/is-pierre-boulez-gay-im-sorry-ive.html

***
*About gays in music -addition to prev. post*
There is also an interesting evedince of musical preferences of a famous Russian poet *Mikhail Kuzmin* (see Wikipedia about him ). He was not only a poet, but also a composer (though not famous as a composer), His poetry was very elegant, light and a little bit salon-like. But he was very innovative - he was the first Russian poet to use *vers libre *, the free verse, without rhyme and constant rhythm, that it is not too popular in Russian poetry even today (most great Russian poets even innovative ones, preffered knittelverse or some types of accentual verse with inexact rhymes (assonance).

He liked *Bizet, Debussy, Ravel, Mozart, but did not like Beethoven and esp. Schumann.* It is very interesting and has some correspondences in his poetry, which is in some way "Mozartian". Though, it was only HIS preferences.


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## Polednice

Moscow-Mahler said:


> In fact, *Tchaikovsky* was not JUST gay. As far as I know, he was in the same cathegory as the famous French writer Andre Gide - he was attracted to 16 y.o. old teenagers (!!!)
> 
> So, I suppose he was happy to be born in Tsarist Russia. In the XIX century USA he would be linched.


Is the age of consent 18 in the US? It's 16 in the UK. Every day and in every way, I fear even more the U. S. of A.


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## Moscow-Mahler

*Polednice*
I thought that in Europe it is 14, but maybe it is on the continent? Though, I mostly agree with 16. In Russia it is now 16.

But 18 (as in the USA) is irrelevant to life. Though, I am not sexually interested in men under 21.


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## Polednice

Moscow-Mahler said:


> *Polednice*
> I thought that in Europe it is 14, but maybe it is on the continent? Though, I mostly agree with 16. In Russia it is now 16.
> 
> But 18 (as in the USA) is irrelevant to life. Though, I am not sexually interested in men under 21.


I'm not sure about other European countries, but they may well have lower ages. In the US, is it 18 for heterosexual couples as well, or is it a discriminatory thing against homosexuals?


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## Meaghan

Polednice said:


> I'm not sure about other European countries, but they may well have lower ages. In the US, is it 18 for heterosexual couples as well, or is it a discriminatory thing against homosexuals?


It's 18 for everybody. Laws regarding what constitutes "statutory rape" vary by state, but it is common in many areas for there to be a law stating that if one or both partners is under 18, it is okay as long as the age difference between the two people is smaller than some maximum gap (usually 2 or 3 years). Provided neither person is younger than some second cut-off point below 18.

I did mock trial in high school, and we had a case about this.

Oops, I'm off-topic.


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## Moscow-Mahler

*Meaghan *
Thanks for the detailed info.


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## Huilunsoittaja

Moscow-Mahler said:


> *Prokofiev* - was 100 percent straight, but has a friend - his name was Max - who commited suicide, because he was in love with heterosexual Prokofiev. It was a big shock for Prokofiev. He wrote his Second Piano concert in the memory of this friend. Prokofiev was also a member of St. Petersbourg Community of the Fans of Chess. And some members of this community were gay (yes, ha-ha, I have never thought about the chess as a sexual game, but the reason was that the chess was the game for men). And some member tried to become "special friends" with Prokofiev, but Prokofiev refused, though Prokofiev took it easy.


HAAAA that's GREAT! :lol: I mean, I always wondered if that happened to him. Ever since I heard Poulenc "admired" Prokofiev and dedicated his Oboe Sonata to him, I've wondered. Just goes to show a guy needs to be careful who he's "dandying" himself up for. I mean, that would be absolutely shocking/embarrassing to get in trouble for.


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## Polednice

Huilunsoittaja said:


> HAAAA that's GREAT! :lol: I mean, I always wondered if that happened to him. Ever since I heard Poulenc "admired" Prokofiev and dedicated his Oboe Sonata to him, I've wondered. Just goes to show a guy needs to be careful who he's "dandying" himself up for. I mean, that would be absolutely shocking/embarrassing to get in trouble for.


If one is concerned for one's reputation, one could simply murder the filth and use the gay panic defence. :tiphat:


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## Guest

elgars ghost said:


> Were the Soviet Union and USA as 'bitter enemies' as what we were led to believe? Most of the cold war in my lifetime seemed to revolve around ideological sabre-rattling, indoctrinating kids at an early age to 'know your enemy', space-race oneupmanship, bolstering dodgy third-world regimes in the name of sphere of influence points-scoring,
> 
> .


Remember the Cuban crises? that was as near as I would like to get,


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## Moscow-Mahler

This member of Chess Fans Society was some literarute criticist, who later married. I was shocked to read about this case, because, I've never thought about *chess * THAT way. Well, I watch MMA sometimes, and become curious, but chess... ha-ha

Prokofiev was about 19 at that time, I suppose. Thanks god, he took it easy, and did not became a homophobe as *Karl Gustav Jung*, a famous Swiss psychologist, did.


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## Aksel

Moscow-Mahler said:


> *Polednice*
> I thought that in Europe it is 14, but maybe it is on the continent? Though, I mostly agree with 16. In Russia it is now 16.
> 
> But 18 (as in the USA) is irrelevant to life. Though, I am not sexually interested in men under 21.


It's 16 in Norway.

But getting back on topic:
Have we mentioned Lully yet? I can't remember.


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## Moscow-Mahler

*Aksel*
Oh, Lully... I totally forgot about him. At yes, it seems to me that no one mentioned him before...


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## handlebar

Times have changed for the better in that being openly gay/lesbian/bi or even trans does not matter in some parts of society.
In the arts, it is and has been part forever. Gradually it is becoming a n on-issue within society, as it should be. As an openly out bisexual American male, I know how difficult life can be when homophobes and closed minded individuals want to ruin a life.
So glad this didn't keep some of our favourite composers from being themselves and making glorious music for the present and future.


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## aleazk

Moscow-Mahler said:


> Well, I suppose it is difficult to find any connection between the sexuality and the music. The theory that gay music should be less militant, aggressive, more salon-like is indefensible.


Yes, indeed, take Tchaikovksy for example... oh, wait.


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## Guest

handlebar said:


> Times have changed for the better in that being openly gay/lesbian/bi or even trans does not matter in some parts of society.
> In the arts, it is and has been part forever. Gradually it is becoming a n on-issue within society, as it should be. As an openly out bisexual American male, I know how difficult life can be when homophobes and closed minded individuals want to ruin a life.
> So glad this didn't keep some of our favourite composers from being themselves and making glorious music for the present and future.


It is the music that is important to me not the way they live their lives.


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## JohannesBrahms

I do think that gay composers seem to write music that is softer and more emotional. For example, take Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. Tchaikovsky's style was very tumultuous and emotional. Rachmaninoff was greatly influenced by him, but his style is much, much more masculine.


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## hreichgott

Hi there, I'm a lesbian and a feminist.
EDIT: The above sentence was a response to a post that made reference to lesbians and feminists which has since been deleted. I don't mind leaving the sentence there though.

This is an interesting thread. I don't hear much in the way of "gayness" in music by gay composers, in the same way that I don't hear much "femininity" in music by women, perhaps because music is already so diverse and every composer's style so unique that I tend to hear the individual voice rather than some characteristic. 

However, to those who object "why share your private life all over the place?" I will observe that when we talk about straight composers' marriages or descendants, no one objects to the sharing of their private lives.


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## mmsbls

Thread closed for repairs.


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## PetrB

Aramis said:


> Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, most of his life he was in ralationship with women.


Tchaikovsky was about as homosexual as it gets.


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## Garlic

Does it really matter what genitals great composers preferred on their partners? If you didn't know which composers were gay would you really be able to tell from their music?


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## PetrB

Coming soon: the difference in the music written by composers under or over the height of five-foot nine.


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## Garlic

Hypothesis: shorter composers make noisier, angrier music


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## Guest

I am glad that this thread was not closed, whatever your point of view if stated in the correct way it is legit.


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## Crudblud

PetrB said:


> Coming soon: the difference in the music written by composers under or over the height of five-foot nine.


With heightism being one of the most socially accepted forms of discrimination in the west, I honestly wouldn't be surprised.


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## PetrB

Crudblud said:


> With heightism being one of the most socially accepted forms of discrimination in the west, I honestly wouldn't be surprised.


_*"You must be this tall to ride this ride."*_


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## SilenceIsGolden

Garlic said:


> Hypothesis: shorter composers make noisier, angrier music


Heh. But wasn't Schubert the shortest "great" composer at 5'1"?


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## Mahlerian

SilenceIsGolden said:


> Heh. But wasn't Schubert the shortest "great" composer at 5'1"?


Ravel, at 5'3", was pretty close...


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## SilenceIsGolden




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## aleazk

Mahlerian said:


> Ravel, at 5'3", was pretty close...


Yeah, but unlike Schubert, 5'3" of handsome:










(ok, lol, that sounded gay)


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## hreichgott

Re: the How Tall Were the Great Composers picture

Looks like being short can only help!


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## Op.123

http://assets.gcstatic.com/u/apps/a...19/composer-heights-lady-gaga-1368532174.jpeg


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## Couchie

Awwww, they're so cute!


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## oogabooha

Homosexuality doesn't necessarily have a direct effect on somebody's music. It can--just like many other personality aspects--affect their influence, cohorts, etc., but there is no direct correlation between having a same sex orientation and music, *period.*

that being said, society has never been fond of LGBTQ life. There are many repercussions that come with that, and it is recognizable that it can take a toll on somebody's emotions. Take Tchaikovsky for example; he was a complete romantic, and had expressed disdain for his homosexuality throughout his entire life. This fear and self hatred pierces through his music, so I wouldn't think somebody was far off by saying that his homosexuality affected his music...but it didn't _make_ his music. I would say that if you're gay and writing music, there is a higher chance that your music may be more morose. I was talking to another composer recently about how they never really had problems, but I'm one who constantly struggles with homosexuality and pain, despite being very "cool" with the scene. Both of these viewpoints affect our music respectively, but not _because_ of our orientation.

The whole point is that it's all relative. You have people like Bernstein who were notorious for promiscuous, sexually-driven same-sex lifestyles (which did consequentially affect his marriage), but I don't see anything really distinct about that lifestyle coming through in his music. You also have _straight_ composers like Berlioz or even other musicians like Conor Oberst (of Bright Eyes) who were/are heavy romantics in the same way as Tchaikovsky and poured every bit of their soul into their music.

Also, RE: comment about why gay-specific music isn't necessary: it is, just like any other sort of subculture. It may not be labeled as heterosexual, but popular culture on a whole _is_ filled with "heterosexual radio stations"...except for the occasional time when there's a stereotypically flamboyant gay man prancing around on tv as comic relief. It's the same for many other cultures, actually; remember when blues was stolen from the African American population and turned into commercial rock music?

so that type of scene is necessary, even if it may not seem like it from your perspective. It offers emotional support for people who feel excluded, and offers them a chance to be surrounded by like minded individuals.

Whether that creates the art is a different story (I like a lot of queercore music and frequently attend "gay" concerts, but I couldn't imagine labeling my music as "gay", as that would imply it's a product of labeling and not the result of an emotional experience). That's an artistic license, however, and has no relevance when put in the context of a culture that is constantly labeling, defining, and chastising how people live their lives.


----------



## superhorn

Tchaikovsky wrote plenty of music which is not at all hyperemotional and full of frenzied self pity .
The ballets Nutcrakcer,Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty , the four orchestral suites , (sadly neglected works), the first three symphonies , just to name of few examples .
Some of his works are characterized by a kind of early neoclassicism and show marked influence by his beloved Mozart .In the great opera Queen of Spades, set in elegant 18th century St. Petersburg , there is an enactment of a pastoral tableau which is very Mozartean, for example in one scene . 
Also, it's very easy for conductors to oversentimentalize things llike the last three synphonies and other works . Of course, you don't want clinical and bloodless Tchaikovsky, but it's certainly possible to find a happy medium between these two extremes.


----------



## Toddlertoddy

JohannesBrahms said:


> I do think that gay composers seem to write music that is *softer* and more emotional. For example, take Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. Tchaikovsky's style was very *tumultuous* and emotional. Rachmaninoff was greatly influenced by him, but his style is much, much more masculine.


You just contradicted yourself....

And what does masculine music mean? Heavier brass? Less flute and clarinet? Darker?


----------



## handlebar

aleazk said:


> Yeah, but unlike Schubert, 5'3" of handsome:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (ok, lol, that sounded gay)


Sounded gay? You appreciated a handsome man. No big deal.


----------



## oogabooha

Sorry for reviving this topic, but I have a composer related question that falls under LGBT*Q...does anybody know of any composers in history who have undergone a sex change (or are transgender/genderqueer)? I hope I'm not saying this in a way that doesn't seem PC (if so, I'm sorry)

I also am not implying that it affects the way they compose or if that's the only thing they "stood for", it's just that I'm only familiar with one well-known composer and I want to see if the LGBT*Q presence in music is well rounded or not. I'm just curious


----------



## Mahlerian

Wendy Carlos is the only one who comes to mind (that was probably who you were thinking of).


----------



## oogabooha

Yes, Carlos was who came to mind, I was wondering if I was missing anyone.


----------



## hreichgott

I was going to say Wendy Carlos too.


----------



## Crudblud

oogabooha said:


> Sorry for reviving this topic, but I have a composer related question that falls under LGBT*Q...does anybody know of any composers in history who have undergone a sex change (or are transgender/genderqueer)? I hope I'm not saying this in a way that doesn't seem PC (if so, I'm sorry)
> 
> I also am not implying that it affects the way they compose or if that's the only thing they "stood for", it's just that I'm only familiar with one well-known composer and I want to see if the LGBT*Q presence in music is well rounded or not. I'm just curious


I'm gender fluid, which might fit your criteria, but I don't think it has any particular effect on my music. Some people have called my music "schizophrenic," a term which is potentially analogous to fluidity, but my personality is not drastically altered (if at all) by shifts in gender so I think that rules it out as a _direct_ influence. In a more general sense everything that I am must be a guiding force in some way, but on that level I am just as influenced by my liking of pizza as I am by my sometimes being a woman.


----------



## oogabooha

Crudblud said:


> I'm gender fluid, which might fit your criteria, but I don't think it has any particular effect on my music. Some people have called my music "schizophrenic," a term which is potentially analogous to fluidity, but my personality is not drastically altered (if at all) by shifts in gender so I think that rules it out as a _direct_ influence. In a more general sense everything that I am must be a guiding force in some way, but on that level I am just as influenced by my liking of pizza as I am by my sometimes being a woman.


That's interesting, thanks for the insight. It should be noted that I wasn't saying that I thought it affected a composer's music (in a way that could be interpreted as derogatory), but I was just thinking solely about representation among "famous composers" or whatever, because so commonly people are posed with the "rich white guy dilemma: where is the variety?" or some peculiar aesthetic based discussion


----------



## Crudblud

oogabooha said:


> That's interesting, thanks for the insight. It should be noted that I wasn't saying that I thought it affected a composer's music (in a way that could be interpreted as derogatory), but I was just thinking solely about representation among "famous composers" or whatever, because so commonly people are posed with the "rich white guy dilemma: where is the variety?" or some peculiar aesthetic based discussion


Then I misinterpreted, although rest assured I didn't think there was anything derogatory about your post. In 100 years' time there may be many more well known trans/fluid/queer/whatever composers, most of them will be of our generation, there are probably many young composers of that persuasion that we aren't aware of who are going to be "important" in years to come.


----------



## hello

I disagree. Lou Harrison, Henry Cowell, & John Cage aren't exactly softies. Virgil Thompson's music is powerful and majestic. What a terrible stereotype.


----------



## Novelette

hello said:


> I disagree. Lou Harrison, Henry Cowell, & John Cage aren't exactly softies. *Virgil Thompson's music is powerful and majestic. What a terrible stereotype.*


I was thinking the exact same thing.

A terrible stereotype indeed!


----------



## BurningDesire

SilenceIsGolden said:


>


They're all so tiny. I'm even taller than Rachmaninov :3


----------



## Moscow-Mahler

I am reading Tchaikovsky biography now (though, despite me being gay, I am more into Shostakovich):

http://www.amazon.com/Piotr-Tchaikovsky-Biografia-Portugues-Brasil/dp/859881525X/

Quite frustrating reading. Escpecially, about his relationship with his wife. I still do not understand all this situation because in aristocratic XIX century Russian society no one cared much about homosexuality.

There was now closed discussion about our Minister of Culture (quite unpleasant person, the previous one, who was an ex-diplomat was much better), who claimed that Tchaikovksy was not gay. I was out of the forum, and so did not participate. Maybe it's better for me, ' cause I am afraid that being both gay AND Russian I would have become too emotional.


----------



## GiulioCesare

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I am reading Tchaikovsky biography now (though, despite me being gay, I am more into Shostakovich):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Piotr-Tchaikovsky-Biografia-Portugues-Brasil/dp/859881525X/
> 
> Quite frustrating reading. Escpecially, about his relationship with his wife. I still do not understand all this situation because in aristocratic XIX century Russian society no one cared much about homosexuality.
> 
> There was now closed discussion about our Minister of Culture (quite unpleasant person, the previous one, who was an ex-diplomat was much better), who claimed that Tchaikovksy was not gay. I was out of the forum, and so did not participate. Maybe it's better for me, ' cause I am afraid that being both gay AND Russian I would have become too emotional.


You stay safe.

___________________


----------



## mstar

GiulioCesare said:


> You stay safe.
> 
> ___________________


Agreed. He should read a realistic one (pfft-hahahahahaaa! Yes, it exists...) by Alexander Poznansky.

But some threads float away for good reasons.


----------



## BurningDesire

Moscow-Mahler said:


> I am reading Tchaikovsky biography now (though, despite me being gay, I am more into Shostakovich):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Piotr-Tchaikovsky-Biografia-Portugues-Brasil/dp/859881525X/
> 
> Quite frustrating reading. Escpecially, about his relationship with his wife. I still do not understand all this situation because in aristocratic XIX century Russian society no one cared much about homosexuality.
> 
> There was now closed discussion about our Minister of Culture (quite unpleasant person, the previous one, who was an ex-diplomat was much better), who claimed that Tchaikovksy was not gay. I was out of the forum, and so did not participate. Maybe it's better for me, ' cause I am afraid that being both gay AND Russian I would have become too emotional.


*hug* stay strong friend.


----------



## spradlig

How can a string quartet be gay? Not arguing, just don't understand.


----------



## spradlig

Sorry, I see you answered my question from a few minutes ago.


----------



## nightscape

Mirror Image said:


> There were many composers that were gay: Copland, Tchaikovsky, Copland, Bernstein, Barber, etc.


Copland was twice as gay!


----------



## Orfeo

Sid James said:


> @ Meaghan - that was a very enlightening article. I knew Bernstein's _Mass_ drew ire from the Vatican, but I didn't know President Nixon also hated it. Reading that article, it was clear the Nixon was quite the homophobe. He was more concerned with what Bernstein did rather than his music (eg. kissing the performers, including the guys, after the show). Also anti-Semitism - Nixon noting the "Jewish name" of critic Harold C. Schonberg. It seems that Nixon was more of a complete douchebag than I had thought before. & re supporting the Black Panthers - Lenny went out on a limb there, imo, but I feel that maybe the man was just being a bit of a "stirrer," he deliberately wanted to discomfit the conservatives...


Nixon's relationship with Kissinger is revealing in that respect (of anti-semitism), as reported.


----------



## Jobis

I think the role of sexuality is often overplayed as a 'defining characteristic' of a person which is silly imo


----------



## shangoyal

Jobis said:


> I think the role of sexuality is often overplayed as a 'defining characteristic' of a person which is silly imo


It is also underplayed sometimes, which is more silly.


----------



## Flamme

Tapkaara said:


> Tchaikovsky lived in a place and time where you had to be gay in secret. Even today, many closeted gay people will marry and have children because they haven't much of a choice.
> 
> I think most serious scholarship states Tchaikovsky was a closeted gay male.


Even today in Russia to be gay is ''against the law''


----------



## Flamme

No milk today, it wasn't always so
The company was gay, we'd turn night into day
:lol:


----------



## Aramis

Jobis said:


> I think the role of sexuality is often overplayed as a 'defining characteristic' of a person which is silly imo


What about person which isn't silly in your opinion?


----------



## Ebab

Jobis said:


> I think the role of sexuality is often overplayed as a 'defining characteristic' of a person which is silly imo


You're essentially saying that love isn't important. For most people though, it is.


----------



## Jobis

Aramis said:


> What about person which isn't silly in your opinion?


I'd have to say their virtues and their beliefs. I don't think someone being homosexual says anything about them other than they are attracted to the same gender; doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


----------



## Jobis

Ebab said:


> You're essentially saying that love isn't important. For most people though, it is.


So you think love can't exist without sexual intercourse? I guess I don't love any of my friends or family then.


----------



## Ebab

Jobis said:


> So you think love can't exist without sexual intercourse? I guess I don't love any of my friends or family then.


What is called "homosexuality" encompasses more than sexual intercourse. The person that you want to _be_ with in your life has the same gender, and that does have serious implications, even today, even in the Western world, let alone the times and places of the composers in question.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Love (with or without intercourse) can also exist without the person in question making it into the defining feature of his personality and without making a gay issue out of everything and anything in the universe. And Ebab, in case you are wondering, I am not talking about you. However, I have just seen a comment suggesting Tristan und Isolde could be improved by adding _lesbians_ into it... 

Oh hell... and I was intent on staying out of this one...


----------



## Jobis

Ebab said:


> What is called "homosexuality" encompasses more than sexual intercourse. The person that you want to _be_ with in your life has the same gender, and that does have serious implications, even today, even in the Western world, let alone the times and places of the composers in question.


I assumed the term homosexuality was mainly focused on the sexual side of things, of course romantic, monogamous love is a wonderful thing and its not exclusive to male-female relationships, but I see that as a different matter. I certainly believe that most people get into serious long term relationships not because of their sexuality but because they love the other for their entire person.


----------



## Ebab

SiegendesLicht said:


> Love (with or without intercourse) can also exist without the person in question making it into the defining feature of his personality and without making a gay issue out of everything and anything in the universe.





Jobis said:


> So you think love can't exist without sexual intercourse? I guess I don't love any of my friends or family then.


"Love" is an oscillating word in the English language (and many others), so let's sort that out. The Greek were much more precise here: This Wikipedia article on the Greek words for love sums it up nicely.

I stand firmly by what I believe is true: Whom you love, in the sense of ἔρως, i.e. where your desires go and whom you want to be with in your life - that very much defines you. And if your particular time and place deals tells you that your fundamentally deviant, sick and criminal, that defines you too, and _strongly_. (Suicide rates among homosexuals are significantly increased to this day even in the Western world. In Russia, you can get legally arrested for holding your lover's hand ("propaganda"). In other countries it's the death penalty. It's really still not so funny.)

Your sexual orientation is very much a part of who you are, and to this day, has a large impact on your life.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Just one little thing, and I am outta here:



Ebab said:


> In Russia, you can get legally arrested for holding your lover's hand ("propaganda")


I have read this so much on this forum lately that it made me want to get together with some female friend of mine, go to Moscow (much as I hate that place) and spend all Christmas vacation walking around holding hands, just to see what would happen  However, I have a suspicion nothing would happen, because when an average Russian (or other Slavic person) sees two people of the same sex holding hands, his first thought is "Friends!" not "Gay lovers!" Much as I am critical of Russia and their way of doing things, they have this in their favor. Would it be the other way in Germany?


----------



## BillT

David C Coleman said:


> This is an interesting subject actually. Here is a link to that very subject. I'm amazed at how many household names were gay. Not sure that it influences style of composing though!..
> 
> http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/list-of-gay,-lesbian-or-bisexual-composers/


They seem to have left out Schubert.

- Bill


----------



## Aramis

BillT said:


> They seem to have left out Schubert.
> 
> - Bill


The omission much more outrageous when you think that Schubert himself also forgot to be gay!


----------



## Ebab

SiegendesLicht said:


> I have read this so much on this forum lately that it made me want to get together with some female friend of mine, go to Moscow (much as I hate that place) and spend all Christmas vacation walking around holding hands, just to see what would happen  However, I have a suspicion nothing would happen, because when an average Russian (or other Slavic person) sees two people of the same sex holding hands, his first thought is "Friends!" not "Gay lovers!" Much as I am critical of Russia and their way of doing things, they have this in their favor. Would it be the other way in Germany?


It's in the nature of hypocrisy that you can do anything as long as it's not showing your true flags in the open. You obviously have better knowledge of the Russian customs than I have; but I'm aware that in the Mediterranean cultures for instance, men often have more physical contact, including holding hands, as an expression of their friendship. That is customary; why not.

I'm just not sure what this is going to prove. If you disguise your affection in Russia as friendship, you'll be all right. If one man shows open signs of loving (ἔρως) another (holding hands and a rainbow button will suffice), Putin's law can get him arrested for "homosexual propaganda".

PS: There's no Russian law against the "heterosexual propaganda" that's on display 24/7.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Ebab said:


> I stand firmly by what I believe is true: Whom you love, in the sense of ἔρως, i.e. where your desires go and whom you want to be with in your life - that very much defines you.


Actually I think you are right about this. It does not define one entirely (you still have to preserve your own personality, not dissolve entirely in the other person - unless you really try to live out a real-world version of Tristan und Isolde), but "very much" seems to be about right amount. At least I know I would not be where I am now (job-wise and in many other ways) without my man.


----------



## BillT

Tapkaara said:


> Sid James suggested opening a "Sibelius the Nazi Sympathizer" thread. No need for discussion on that. He was, without any doubt, a viciously devout friend of the NSDAP. And I have the photo to prove it.


Wow, to me that's shocking! I do like his music though. I will have somewhat of a hard time with it for awhile after seeing that photo!

- Bill


----------



## KenOC

Aramis said:


> The omission much more outrageous when you think that Schubert himself also forgot to be gay!


Some dark rumors going around about that, well beyond simply his sexual orientation.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

Ebab, what I was getting at in post #191, and it was sort of a rhetorical question, was this: is the society in Germany (as opposed to Russia) so thoroughly sexualized that when people see two guys or two girls holding hands, their first thought would be that they are in a sexual relationship? I really don't think that is the case.

Also, there is nothing hypocritical about restraining the more intimate expressions of sexuality and keeping them out of public view, no matter whether it is homo- or hetero-. Nobody would object to holding hands, but if someone wants to "go the whole way" with their partner, than let them at least hide! Strange, but I have seen far more couples who do pretty much everything except for the act itself out in public view, in concervative Slavic lands than in Germany.


----------



## Ebab

SiegendesLicht said:


> Ebab, what I was getting at in post #191, and it was sort of a rhetorical question, was this: is the society in Germany (as opposed to Russia) so thoroughly sexualized that when people see two guys or two girls holding hands, their first thought would be that they are in a sexual relationship? I really don't think that is the case.


I don't know about "sexualized". In Germany, two men friends customarily won't hold their hands in public. If they do, it will suggest to the onlooker that they are a couple, or that they possibly originate from another culture.



> Also, there is nothing hypocritical about restraining the more intimate expressions of sexuality and keeping them out of public view, no matter whether it is homo- or hetero-. Nobody would object to holding hands, but if someone wants to "go the whole way" with their partner, than let them at least hide! Strange, but I have seen far more couples who do pretty much everything except for the act itself out in public view, in concervative Slavic lands than in Germany.


Fact is, men _have_ been arrested, kept in custody, and convicted to monetary fine, for nothing else than holding hands, in Russia, in this present day.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

SiegendesLicht said:


> Ebab, what I was getting at in post #191, and it was sort of a rhetorical question, was this: is the society in Germany (as opposed to Russia) so thoroughly sexualized that when people see two guys or two girls holding hands, their first thought would be that they are in a sexual relationship? I really don't think that is the case.


I live in Germany and, personally, if I see two guys or two girls holding hands, I do think they are homosexual (if they are adults). It's definitely more 'normal' to be homosexual here, though. I don't know what the thread has to do with music though, hehe.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I live in Germany and, personally, if I see two guys or two girls holding hands, I do think they are homosexual (if they are adults). It's definitely more 'normal' to be homosexual here, though. I don't know what the thread has to do with music though, hehe.


Oh well, I guess next time I am over there I should simply avoid any form of physical contact with anybody: hugs, holding hands, patting on the back etc. Here we still do all these things without concern about being misconstrued as hitting on the other person. Anyway, what has happened to all other forms of human relationships, apart from bare physical lust? There used to be such a thing called friendship, you know? And it sometimes involved very deep and lasting feelings, even without sharing your bed. What has happened to it?

The thread has originally been about gay _composers_ so it used to have something to do with music, but like with every such thread, the _composers_ part has been long forgotten.


----------



## brianvds

BillT said:


> Wow, to me that's shocking! I do like his music though. I will have somewhat of a hard time with it for awhile after seeing that photo!
> 
> - Bill


One must keep in mind that up to the mid-1930s, very few people outside Germany, even well educated ones, had any idea of what Germany was turning into. And then the Soviet Union invaded Finland, which basically drove the Finns into the arms of the Nazis.


----------



## tdc

KenOC said:


> Some dark rumors going around about that, well beyond simply his sexual orientation.


Ok I'll bite, what were these dark rumors?


----------



## KenOC

tdc said:


> Ok I'll bite, what were these dark rumors?


Do a search... .....................


----------



## Delicious Manager

Andante said:


> So that was incest if it was his first cousy


It is legal to marry a first cousin (at least it is in the UK).


----------



## EdwardBast

Realized I was answering a zombie …


----------



## Delicious Manager

Mahlerian said:


> Wendy Carlos is the only one who comes to mind (that was probably who you were thinking of).


Angela Morley is another (born Walter 'Wally' Scott), composer of many film scores, including:

The Heart of a Man (1959)
The Lady Is a Square (1959)
The Looking Glass War (1969)
Captain Nemo and the Underwater City (1969)
When Eight Bells Toll (1971)
The Little Prince (1974)
Watership Down (1978)


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Speaking of homosexuality, I often forget that Felix Mendelssohn was actually heterosexual and had a wife and five kids. Something is wrong with me.


----------



## Pugg

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Speaking of homosexuality, I often forget that Felix Mendelssohn was actually heterosexual and had a wife and five kids. Something is wrong with me.


Perhaps finding somewhere else to live


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Pugg said:


> Perhaps finding somewhere else to live


But I don't want to abandon tumblr just yet!


----------



## hpowders

Who cares whether any composer is/was gay or straight?


Would this "valuable" knowledge affect the way you listen to the composer's music?

Anyway, there are and were quite a few who may have been homosexual and that for one reason or another never "came out of the closet".

Would you stop listening to Beethoven's music if you found out he was homosexual?


----------



## Cosmos

-deleted post- lkejrle


----------



## EdwardBast

hpowders said:


> Who cares whether any composer is/was gay or straight?


It might be important to gay people in a country where homosexuals are being systematically persecuted, especially when the sexual orientation of one of that country's national treasures, let's call him Tchaikovsky , is being suppressed and denied. You might not have noticed, but a couple of our frequent posters here at TC have been bemused or offended when informed that Tchaikovsky was gay - and I guess that is a second minority that cares.


----------



## Becca

But the composer's sexual orientation can impact their choice of material and how it is treated. Just think of Benjamin Britten.


----------



## Nereffid

hpowders said:


> Who cares whether any composer is/was gay or straight?
> 
> Would this "valuable" knowledge affect the way you listen to the composer's music?
> 
> Anyway, there are and were quite a few who may have been homosexual and that for one reason or another never "came out of the closet".
> 
> Would you stop listening to Beethoven's music if you found out he was homosexual?


From Stephen Fry's letter to his 16-year-old self:


> I know what you are doing now, young Stephen. It's early 1973. You are in the library, cross-referencing bibliographies so that you can find more and more examples of queer people in history, art and literature against whom you can hope to validate yourself. Leonardo, Tchaikovsky, Wilde, Barons Corvo and von Gloeden, Robin Maugham, Worsley, "an Englishman", Jean Genet, Cavafy, Montherlant, Roger Peyrefitte, Mary Renault, Michael Campbell, Michael Davies, Angus Stewart, Gore Vidal, John Rechy, William Burroughs.
> So many great spirits really do confirm that hope! It emboldens you to know that such a number of brilliant (if often doomed) souls shared the same impulse and desires as you.


----------



## mstar

To me, this is just another one of those "why is this a thread anna netrebko" threads.


----------



## Cosmos

EdwardBast said:


> It might be important to gay people in a country where homosexuals are being systematically persecuted, especially when the sexual orientation of one of that country's national treasures, let's call him Tchaikovsky , is being suppressed and denied. You might not have noticed, but a couple of our frequent posters here at TC have been bemused or offended when informed that Tchaikovsky was gay - and I guess that is a second minority that cares.


This is an important point I didn't think about. It's always wrong to erase identities. And I'm actually disappointed to here people here get offended when they find out Tchaikovsky is gay...I thought we were all more mature than that


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

I personally think that knowing the sexuality of a certain composer will bring us a step closer to knowing them better as a person.

















Still, between these two men, the one that feels more likely to be seen walking down the street holding hands with his boyfriend seems to be the first one.


----------



## Morimur

Happy composers? Don't like them.


----------



## Klassic

hpowders said:


> Who cares whether any composer is/was gay or straight?


O I'm with ya, but be forewarned, there are people on this forum who think the world was always meant to fit into a neat little box.


----------



## Cosmos

Klassic said:


> O I'm with ya, but be forewarned, there are people on this forum who think the world was always meant to fit into a neat little box.


What do you mean by that?


----------



## Klassic

Cosmos said:


> What do you mean by that?


I mean there are people who have a problem with gay composers.


----------



## Pugg

Morimur said:


> Happy composers? Don't like them.


But grumpy members you don't mind?


----------



## Petwhac

Klassic said:


> I mean there are people who have a problem with gay composers.


I believe there is medication now available for those people.


----------



## Pugg

Petwhac said:


> I believe there is medication now available for those people.


It's been tested all over the world :lol:


----------



## Petwhac

I remember reading about the gay community of Europe at the end of the 19th C and how shocked and dismayed they were when the rumour started to spread that Tchaikovsky was Russian!

<<WARNING>> I made the same joke a while back in another discussion of Putin's inanity regarding Tchaik's sexuality. <<END OF WARNING>>


----------



## Badinerie

Pugg said:


> But grumpy members you don't mind?


Sing...if your glad to be Grumpy. :lol:

Of course its important to know if a composer was gay. Especially in a time when homosexuality was illegal in many countries. When gay men and women were castigated discriminated against and even murdered. A time like...now.
To know a persons struggles is to know the person.


----------



## Pugg

Badinerie said:


> Sing...if your glad to be Grumpy. :lol:
> 
> Of course its important to know if a composer was gay. Especially in a time when homosexuality was illegal in many countries. When gay men and women were castigated discriminated against and even murdered. A time like...now.
> To know a persons struggles is to know the person.


My country's government were the first to accept gay marriage


----------



## Zhdanov

EdwardBast said:


> a couple of our frequent posters here at TC have been bemused or offended when informed that Tchaikovsky was gay


because in fact he wasn't.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Zhdanov said:


> because in fact he wasn't.


Well, I think that can be debated. I personally think that he was, based on what I've read about Tchaikovsky, but I don't care - what difference does it make? He remains one of the greatest composers to ever live and one of Russia's finest ever musical voices. I say this as a Russia-oriented person born in the Ukraine .


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

EdwardBast said:


> It might be important to gay people in a country where homosexuals are being systematically persecuted, especially when the sexual orientation of one of that country's national treasures, let's call him Tchaikovsky , is being suppressed and denied. You might not have noticed, but a couple of our frequent posters here at TC have been bemused or offended when informed that Tchaikovsky was gay - and I guess that is a second minority that cares.


Gay people are not being 'systematically persecuted' in Russia - there is a difference between a ban on gay propaganda and 'systematic persecution'. I'm not saying I fully agree with the ban, but one must still differentiate.


----------



## EdwardBast

Zhdanov said:


> because in fact he wasn't.


What do you think he was talking about when he wrote XXX in place of whatever word he was not willing to openly write in his correspondence with his brother?


----------



## Guest

Zhdanov said:


> because in fact he wasn't.


Yes he was.

sing if you're glad to be gay


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Zhdanov said:


> because in fact he wasn't.


Can you prove that Tchaikovsky wasn't gay? Is there proof of that? Sure, Tchaikovsky was officially married with a woman once, but this marriage caused him misery and ended very quickly - this is a recorded fact.


----------



## hpowders

Bernstein was gay. I don't find anything "softer" about his music.

Yes, his music was melodic and sensitive:

Witness Facsimile, On the Waterfront, West Side Story, Candide.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Rob Halford from Judas Priest is gay too  - and that's metal music.


----------



## Zhdanov

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I personally think that he was, based on what I've read about Tchaikovsky,


anyone can write anything about anyone for any reason or purpose.

should not trust anyone and anything said or written.


----------



## Chronochromie

Zhdanov said:


> anyone can write anything about anyone for any reason or purpose.
> 
> should not trust anyone and anything said or written.


And we should trust you why?


----------



## Zhdanov

EdwardBast said:


> What do you think he was talking about when he wrote XXX in place of whatever word he was not willing to openly write in his correspondence with his brother?


i've no slightest idea.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Zhdanov said:


> anyone can write anything about anyone for any reason or purpose.
> 
> should not trust anyone and anything said or written.


Well, that's true - but you have to really prove this. The Wikipedia article, for eg., offers some pretty strong 'evidence' (if it is, in fact, authentic) that Tchaikovsky did have relations with men. Can you disprove such statements?


----------



## Zhdanov

dogen said:


> Yes he was.


no he wasn't.



HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Can you prove that Tchaikovsky wasn't gay?


yes i can: because he did not come out on it.



Chronochromie said:


> And we should trust you why?


because i told you the truth.


----------



## Zhdanov

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> The Wikipedia article, for eg., offers some pretty strong 'evidence' (if it is, in fact, authentic) that Tchaikovsky did have relations with men.


i read wiki, there no proof either.


----------



## Chronochromie

Zhdanov said:


> because i told you the truth.


Impossible to argue with this.


----------



## Petwhac

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Gay people are not being 'systematically persecuted' in Russia - there is a difference between a ban on gay propaganda and 'systematic persecution'. I'm not saying I fully agree with the ban, but one must still differentiate.


Oh yeah, 'gay propaganda'! That term used by the the deluded and confused who think that someone can be _persuaded_ to become gay!


----------



## Marschallin Blair

*


HaydnBearstheClock said:



Rob Halford from Judas Priest is gay too  - and that's metal music.

Click to expand...

*I always got a kick out of some of my jock metal friends in grammar school when I would remind them of Rob's sterling leather credentials.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

_"You can't handle a real metal frontman, I guess."_

They'd get so upset. I loved roasting them.


----------



## Guest

Chronochromie said:


> Impossible to argue with this.


Plus, Russians are never gay. Not proper ones, such as famous composers.


----------



## Petwhac

dogen said:


> Plus, Russians are never gay. Not proper ones, such as famous composers.


Glinka, Cui, Borodin and Rimsky. All Gay! They were just very very good at hiding it from the public and the history books.
I speak the truth! The fact that you can't find a reference to their utter gayness just proves me right!


----------



## Badinerie

Marschallin Blair said:


> I always got a kick out of some of my jock metal friends in grammar school when I would remind them of Rob's sterling leather credentials.
> 
> Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
> 
> _"You can't handle a real metal frontman, I guess."_
> 
> They'd get so upset. I loved roasting them.


How we never guessed then he was gay I'll never know. Was I ever that innocent! :lol:


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Petwhac said:


> Glinka, Cui, Borodin and Rimsky. All Gay! They were just very very good at hiding it from the public and the history books.
> I speak the truth! The fact that you can't find a reference to their utter gayness just proves me right!


Rimsky wasn't gay for sure. He was happily married to his wife. Borodin, Glinka and Cui - can you provide proof?


----------



## dgee

I assume we've had Handel, Beethoven and Schubert mentioned


----------



## Cosmos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Rimsky wasn't gay for sure. He was happily married to his wife. Borodin, Glinka and Cui - can you provide proof?


Petwhac was just joking, switch-around of Zhdanov's "arguments"

I'm curious as to what this "gay agenda" being referred to could possibly mean


----------



## Chronochromie

Cosmos beat me to it.

BTW we should also use quotations for "Zhdanov" because if that isn't sharik's alt account I'd be really surprised...


----------



## Petwhac

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Rimsky wasn't gay for sure. He was happily married to his wife. Borodin, Glinka and Cui - can you provide proof?


Rimsky was obviously bisexual then! As I said, I can't provide proof because they were too good at hiding the fact. But they we IN THE ARTS! No?

I rest my case.


----------



## EdwardBast

Zhdanov said:


> i've no slightest idea.


I'll give you a hint: It is for the same reason he referred to his lover Aleksey Apukhtin as "Lyolya" in his correspondence with his brother Modest.

The proof is in Tchaikovsky's own writing. From Alexander Poznansky's fine biography of the composer:

From a letter to Modest: "… from today I seriously intend to enter into lawful matrimony with anyone at all" … "I find that our _inclinations_ are for both of us the greatest and most insurmountable obstacle to happiness, and we must fight our nature with all our strength" (p. 182)

and later:

"I am … abandoning forever my habits and shall strive to be counted no longer among the company of XXX." … "I think exclusively of the eradication of pernicious passions from myself." You'll love this Zhdanov: The above two passages are quoted from "P. I Chaikovskii, Pis'ma k rodnym, ed. *Vladimir Zhdanov*, (Moscow, 1940)

"An open secret in certain circles, Tchaikovsky's homosexuality and the secretiveness it involved nonetheless fostered misunderstanding and fed rumor and gossip" (p. 605)

"Over the years … truthful information about Tchaikovsky's private life was more and more suppressed, first by the composer's relatives and later by the Soviet authorities." (P. 607)

There is another letter in which the composer is about to tell his brother about a fascinating incident that took place in a gay club in Paris, at which point a rather long passage was cut by the editor.

In any case, the whole world knows about and accepts Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and there are about 100 pages of Poznansky's biography in which it is discussed. Of course, any publisher distributing this biography in Russia would be fined under the gay propaganda law.


----------



## Cosmos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Gay people are not being 'systematically persecuted' in Russia - there is a difference between a ban on gay propaganda and 'systematic persecution'. I'm not saying I fully agree with the ban, but one must still differentiate.





EdwardBast said:


> In any case, the whole world knows about and accepts Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and their are about 100 pages of Poznansky's biography in which it is discussed. Of course, any publisher distributing this biography in Russia would be fined under the gay propaganda law.


P.S., this is what systematic oppression looks like, for those who doubt or are unsure


----------



## Zhdanov

EdwardBast said:


> From a letter to Modest: "… from today *I seriously intend to enter into lawful matrimony* with anyone at all" … "I find that our _inclinations_ are for both of us the greatest and most insurmountable obstacle to happiness, and *we must fight our nature with all our strength*" (p. 182)


you see, he wasn't gay.


----------



## Becca

Correction ... second most fatuous


----------



## Zhdanov

EdwardBast said:


> "I am … abandoning forever my habits and shall strive to be counted no longer among the company of XXX." … "I think exclusively of the eradication of pernicious passions from myself."


he did not want to be gay, see.


----------



## EdwardBast

Cosmos said:


> P.S., this is what systematic oppression looks like, for those who doubt or are unsure


Well, I don't know Cosmos. I do owe HaydnBearstheClock an apology, I think, because I believe I did overstate the issue, as he pointed out. But there is definitely an attempt at systematic censorship afoot.


----------



## EdwardBast

Zhdanov said:


> he did not want to be gay, see.


Well, of course, he was conflicted about it! Anyone living in a society that considers it grossly abnormal if not criminal is going to be conflicted about it, but these letters are from the early 1870s. Later in life he accepted his nature and was fairly happy with his relationships.


----------



## mmsbls

This thread is about gay composers. It is not a general discussion about homosexuality. Some inappropriate posts have been deleted (as well as some that commented on inappropriate posts).


----------



## Zhdanov

EdwardBast said:


> Later in life he accepted his nature and was fairly happy with his relationships.


any written evidence to corroborate that?



mmsbls said:


> This thread is about gay composers. It is not a general discussion about homosexuality.


the thing is, Tchaikovsky is not a gay composer, must be excluded from mentioned in this thread.


----------



## Chronochromie

Zhdanov said:


> any written evidence to corroborate that?
> 
> the thing is, *Tchaikovsky is not a gay composer*, must be excluded from mentioned in this thread.


Any written evidence to corroborate that?


----------



## Zhdanov

Chronochromie said:


> Any written evidence to corroborate that?


no evidence of either automatically renders him disqualified from this thread.


----------



## Zhdanov

Cosmos said:


> But don't just deny what's commonly agreed upon to be true


commonly agreed?.. no, it isn't.


----------



## Cosmos

Tchaikovsky is probably my favorite gay composer. I also love Poulenc's music, but he wasn't as influential a figure as Tchaikovsky was. 

Copland isn't one of my favorites, but I do like his Clarinet Concerto. I think he'd said that the first movement of this work reflects his feelings of being isolated, or not completely accepted, because he was both gay and Jewish. 

Some people try to argue Schubert was Bi, I don't think there's good enough reason to. If I remember correctly, the speculation is because one of his love songs alludes to a man, or something. I don't see that as being reason enough to believe that he was Bi.


----------



## Chronochromie

Zhdanov said:


> no evidence of either automatically renders him disqualified from this thread.


See post #254...


----------



## Chronochromie

Cosmos said:


> Tchaikovsky is probably my favorite gay composer. I also love Poulenc's music, but he wasn't as influential a figure as Tchaikovsky was.
> 
> Copland isn't one of my favorites, but I do like his Clarinet Concerto. I think he'd said that the first movement of this work reflects his feelings of being isolated, or not completely accepted, because he was both gay and Jewish.
> 
> Some people try to argue Schubert was Bi, I don't think there's good enough reason to. If I remember correctly, the speculation is because one of his love songs alludes to a man, or something. I don't see that as being reason enough to believe that he was Bi.


Interestingly enough I found out recently that Poulenc fathered an illegitimate daughter, so he was probably bi, although most of his relationships were with men. 
I've heard rumors about Schubert but I haven't read Solomon's biography so can't say if the argument he puts forward is convincing, and if there was any strong evidence of that his friends suppressed it after his death.


----------



## Petwhac

I can imagine a similar argument taking place a hundred years ago. That one would be about whether or not composer X was left handed. You see, there is something 'sinister' (as from the Latin 'sinistra' for left) about left handed people which must account for the strange music they write. 

Discussing which composers were or weren't gay is about as important, illuminating and relevant to an appreciation of their music as is discussing whether or not they are left handed. 

The only reason I joined in this debate is the bad taste that is left in the mouth after reading how some people seem to long for their heroes to not be gay!


----------



## Guest

Tapkaara said:


> http://www.andante.com/article/article.cfm?id=25752
> 
> Do you folks agree with this article that gay composers worked with a "softer" sound than the grittier and more dissonant styles of the heterosexual composers of the time?


I have zero interest in a composer's sexuality, but Hans Werner Henze was gay, and he certainly wrote some "gritty" music, as did Sir Michael Tippett.


----------



## Mahlerian

The legitimate topic of this thread has been derailed. It will be reopened at a later time.


----------



## mmsbls

We are reopening the thread. Please discuss homosexuality as it relates to composers.


----------



## Cosmos

Szymanowski worked with homosexual themes in his opera Król Roger, if I remember correctly. I haven't listened to Szymanowski's music in a long time...I'll have to check more of him out. I love his Symphonies 3 and 4, and his Stabat Mater


----------



## EdwardBast

Zhdanov said:


> any written evidence to corroborate that?
> 
> the thing is, Tchaikovsky is not a gay composer, must be excluded from mentioned in this thread.


Well yes, there is an enormous amount of written evidence from Tchaikovsky's letters and diaries. There was a big change in the way he discussed their common inclinations with his brother over the years. Whereas in communications from the early 1870s (see my other long post above) Tchaikovsky talked about the need for them to fight against their natures, in the letters of a decade later we find frank discussions of various affairs with and attractions to men. The diary entries are even more frank. I will start with the most tragic and strange of the affairs.

Decades after the fact, in her emigree years in Paris, "Praskovya [Vldimirovna Tchaikovskaya] confessed that she 'stole a lover' from her famous composer brother-in-law." (Poznansky, p. 458) The lover in question was a young officer named Verinovsky, whom Tchaikovsky referred to with the tender diminutive "ofitserik." Their relations took place in Tiflis. Tch's diary entries are interesting: 23 April, 1886: "Dinner on balcony. Verinovsky. Dressed him in my clothes." 24 April: "At home. Dinner Verinovsky. Exchanging clothes." Now perhaps this sort of intimate dinner followed by getting naked and exchanging clothes is some normal custom among Russian men with which I am unfamiliar, but to western ears it raises questions  26 April: "At breakfast quarrel with Panya [his sister in law] over Verinovsky." It seems Panya performed some "disgraceful stunt" for which Tch was "infinitely sorry for Verinovsky and angry at the wretched woman." Verinovsky committed suicide two weeks later.

Then there is the well-documented affair with a drozhsky driver, Vanya. Diary entries: 2 September, 1886: "In love with V." 16 Sept., after a first blissful and then sleepless night with Vanya, the next day: "Sensation of anguish. Searching for Vanya near the hotel … decrease in amorous feelings. A strange phenomenon, as one would think the reverse." "The affair lasted through the autumn" (Poznansky, 467) This one requires little explanation: 2 December: "Vanyusha. Hands."(!)

Then there are the briefly noted anonymous encounters with bath house attendants, waiters, etc. Several entries about a bathhouse attendant: 16 May, 1887, St. Petersburg: "Znamenskie [baths]. Timofey" 16 June, 1887: "With Timosha. Somehow wasn't any fun. It's not the same anymore."

Another entry finds Tch following a waiter with whom he is friends very late at night in St. Petersburg. He finds him sitting on a bench with a "negro" man, who asks for money. After that there is a large bit of text removed. Wonder why?

Anyway, Zhdanov, there are pages upon pages of similar evidence, discussions of his affairs with Modest, other dairy entries, but I think the conclusions are obvious. Hope you don't get arrested for reading this gay propaganda


----------



## hpowders

Brahms may have been gay. He seemed to adore Clara Schumann but kept her at a distance and may never have had a consummated relationship with her.

He died lonely which the late solo piano pieces attest to over and over.


----------



## EdwardBast

By the way, and because it was mentioned above: The questions about Schubert's orientation remain hotly contested, with Rita Steblin, among others, disputing claims he was gay made by Maynard Solomon. I haven't been following this one so I don't know what the current state of play is.


----------



## Mandryka

Was Boccharini gay?

The reason I ask is that years ago there was a painting on loan in London by Goya called "The Family of the Infante Don Luís", and in the note it said that a certain person in it was Boccharini with his "constant companion" -- and then the name of some bloke or other. I just know that this expression "constant companion" is often a euphemism.









Boccharini's companion is the chap grinning (gayly? cheekily? sheepishly?) out at us!


----------



## KenOC

Has anybody mentioned Jean-Baptiste Lully?


----------



## Petwhac

KenOC said:


> Has anybody mentioned Jean-Baptiste Lully?


Or his compatriots Poulenc and Ravel?


----------



## Strange Magic

hpowders said:


> Brahms may have been gay. He seemed to adore Clara Schumann but kept her at a distance and may never have had a consummated relationship with her.


Most of the writings about Brahms indicate that, because of his early experiences playing in harborside taverns and other such "houses of fascination", (as one wag renamed "houses of assignation"), Brahms was never able to have sexual relationships with women other than prostitutes. A sexual relationship with Clara Schumann is therefore of extremely low probability. This phenomenon is not necessarily terribly rare--the great polar explorer Roald Amundsen displayed similar behavior, though not sharing at all the same early experiences.


----------



## Strange Magic

Petwhac said:


> Or his compatriots Poulenc and Ravel?


Poulenc, yes. Ravel, seemingly completely asexual, but what went on inside that finely-chiseled head remains one of the great mysteries of music.


----------



## Pat Fairlea

Petwhac said:


> I can imagine a similar argument taking place a hundred years ago. That one would be about whether or not composer X was left handed. You see, there is something 'sinister' (as from the Latin 'sinistra' for left) about left handed people which must account for the strange music they write.
> 
> Discussing which composers were or weren't gay is about as important, illuminating and relevant to an appreciation of their music as is discussing whether or not they are left handed. .....


Yes, quite. Well said.


----------



## Mandryka

Petwhac said:


> I can imagine a similar argument taking place a hundred years ago. That one would be about whether or not composer X was left handed. You see, there is something 'sinister' (as from the Latin 'sinistra' for left) about left handed people which must account for the strange music they write.
> 
> Discussing which composers were or weren't gay is about as important, illuminating and relevant to an appreciation of their music as is discussing whether or not they are left handed.
> 
> The only reason I joined in this debate is the bad taste that is left in the mouth after reading how some people seem to long for their heroes to not be gay!


You don't think there's a gay style in music then?


----------



## Dedalus

Mandryka said:


> You don't think there's a gay style in music then?


I don't think so. No more than there is a "person who prefers asian women/men" style of music.


----------



## Petwhac

Mandryka said:


> You don't think there's a gay style in music then?


Of course there is. Dotted rhythms, triplets, grace notes and anything in G sharp minor! Oh yes, and flutter tonguing.

:lol:


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Boulez must be the gayest.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Dedalus said:


> I don't think so. No more than there is a "person who prefers asian women/men" style of music.


But there is a "person who prefers dead men/women" style of music - I'm looking at you, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Saint-Saens...


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Boulez must be the gayest.


Nuh-uh, everyone knows that Felix Mendelssohn was the most homosexual of them all!


----------



## dgee

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Nuh-uh, everyone knows that Felix Mendelssohn was the most homosexual of them all!


I can't condone this nonsense, but what about a thread where we could argue which composer was simply the most butch? The realest he-man of the lot....


----------



## Petwhac

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Boulez must be the gayest.


Not much in G sharp minor there!


----------



## Petwhac

dgee said:


> I can't condone this nonsense, but what about a thread where we could argue which composer was simply the most butch? The realest he-man of the lot....


That must be Gesualdo. Murdering your wife and her lover could be seen as a tad macho!


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

dgee said:


> I can't condone this nonsense, but what about a thread where we could argue which composer was simply the most butch? The realest he-man of the lot....


Obviously the most manly composer would be Clara Schumann.


----------



## EdwardBast

dgee said:


> I can't condone this nonsense, but what about a thread where we could argue which composer was simply the most butch? The realest he-man of the lot....


Didn't Charles Ives say Carl Ruggles was dead butch - the manliest composer of them all?

And didn't Gesualdo have his servants do the actual killing?


----------



## Pugg

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Boulez must be the gayest.


Fiction or truth


----------



## Fugue Meister

hpowders said:


> Brahms may have been gay. He seemed to adore Clara Schumann but kept her at a distance and may never have had a consummated relationship with her.
> 
> He died lonely which the late solo piano pieces attest to over and over.


I'm fairly certain it's documented Brahms had a major thing for whores and frequented brothels on a regular basis... I think he was just anti marriage but I speculate it was because his beloved Clara was already taken..


----------



## elgar's ghost

Petwhac said:


> That must be Gesualdo. Murdering your wife and her lover could be seen as a tad macho!


Yes but he still wore tights...


----------



## Cosmos

dgee said:


> I can't condone this nonsense, but what about a thread where we could argue which composer was simply the most butch? The realest he-man of the lot....


Implying gay men cant be butch 

Anyway, aside from joking about which composers could have been gay, I feel I should bring up this point that I've noticed a few people struggle with

Lack of knowledge about a composer's private life in terms of sexuality =/= he was gay. While I could mention Brahms in this example, just because a few people suggest he might have been gay, others have already noted that he visited lady prostitutes. The more important one I want to bring up is Ravel, who people say might have been gay because...we don't know if he had sex with anyone...and..._he dresses nice_ [really?]

Speculation is fine if we're trying to understand the past, but please have better reasons than stereotypes, people

*Edit: The comment about "Ravel dressing nice suggests he's gay" I didn't read on these forms, I saw elsewhere online, so this is more of a general word dump than specific to what people are saying on this thread, sorry


----------



## Cosmos

Pugg said:


> Fiction or truth


"Gayest" is an extreme :lol: but it seems that he kept his personal life, well, personal. His friend Norman Lebrecht said he was gay, so I don't think there's a reason he would lie about that.

In any case, going back, WAY back, to the OP of this thread: Boulez is yet another counter example to the theory that gay men wrote "softer" music.


----------



## isorhythm

Brahms was also engaged at one point, but broke it off.


----------



## Strange Magic

isorhythm said:


> Brahms was also engaged at one point, but broke it off.


Good thing, too. As he aged, Brahms got pretty seedy--his shirt, beard, and jacket bearing the remains of his last meal, plus cigar ashes, etc. Unkempt hair, shuffling gait, acid remarks even to friends. Had he married, he might have been murdered in his sleep.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Strange Magic said:


> Good thing, too. As he aged, Brahms got pretty seedy--his shirt, beard, and jacket bearing the remains of his last meal, plus cigar ashes, etc. Unkempt hair, shuffling gait, acid remarks even to friends. Had he married, he might have been murdered in his sleep.


Apart from the beard, this uncannily sums up Sir Les Patterson.


----------



## Guest

Petwhac said:


> Of course there is. Dotted rhythms, triplets, grace notes and anything in G sharp minor! Oh yes, and flutter tonguing.
> 
> :lol:


Not forgetting the playing of the "pink oboe".


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

And now for the most important question of them all: who cares about this crap?? It's the music that matters.


----------



## mstar

Abraham Lincoln said:


> But there is a "person who prefers dead men/women" style of music - I'm looking at you, Mendelssohn, Brahms, *Rachmaninoff*, Saint-Saens...


run that by me one more time.


----------



## isorhythm

The small contingent of Russian nationalists is one of the more interesting things about this forum, tbh.


----------



## Guest

I think this thread belongs in the STUPID THREAD IDEAS thread in the COMMUNITY section. What's next--composers who don't wipe thoroughly?


----------



## mstar

isorhythm said:


> The small contingent of Russian nationalists is one of the more interesting things about this forum, tbh.


Just wondering... was that partially stimulated by my pissy comment? just wondering...


----------



## isorhythm

mstar said:


> Just wondering... was that partially stimulated by my pissy comment? just wondering...


I didn't know that you're Russian!

I really did mean "interesting" in a value-neutral way. It's not a perspective I encounter in real life.


----------



## mstar

Agh, forget it. It's not about gay composers, anyway.


----------



## Strange Magic

It's often turned into a queasily nasty, faintly ugly thread. I vote to abandon it entirely.


----------



## Dim7

Kontrapunctus said:


> I think this thread belongs in the STUPID THREAD IDEAS thread in the COMMUNITY section. What's next--composers who don't wipe thoroughly?


To be fair Stupid Thread Ideas didn't exist when this thread was created.


----------



## Guest

Dim7 said:


> To be fair Stupid Thread Ideas didn't exist when this thread was created.


It was probably the inspiration.


----------



## Cosmos

Kontrapunctus said:


> I think this thread belongs in the STUPID THREAD IDEAS thread in the COMMUNITY section. What's next--composers who don't wipe thoroughly?


Would you say this in a women composers thread? Or a Spanish composers thread? Or a Russian composers thread? [what would Huilunsoittaja think?!  :lol:]


----------



## EdwardBast

Kontrapunctus said:


> I think this thread belongs in the STUPID THREAD IDEAS thread in the COMMUNITY section. What's next--composers who don't wipe thoroughly?


Among the reasons this thread is important is because, as noted above, denying the sexual orientation of gay composers is part of a campaign to criminalize free speech about homosexuality in Russia. This is perhaps why we see the spectacle of TC members from that country posting about Tchaikovsky while demonstrating ignorance about the most basic facts of his life. Since the publication, sale, advertising and reviewing of accurate biographies of Tchaikovsky could now result in a 50,000 ruble fine under current Russian law, it is unlikely the state of knowledge is going to improve.


----------



## Strange Magic

EdwardBast said:


> Among the reasons this thread is important is because, as noted above, denying the sexual orientation of gay composers is part of a campaign to criminalize free speech about homosexuality in Russia.


Precisely. Sad that it has been abused by smirkers.


----------



## Cosmos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> And now for the most important question of them all: who cares about this crap?? It's the music that matters.


I made this comment the other day, but I'll say it again because I think it's important to consider, a general point to everyone:

The answer is, no, a composer's sexuality doesn't matter when talking about music. Good music is good music despite who wrote it. Whether the composer is a woman, or French, or Russian, or Italian, any other category, it doesn't matter when talking about good music.

But, does anyone post in a woman composers thread "who cares if they're women?" No, they don't. Does anyone post in the French composers thread, "Who gives a crap about if they were French?" Nope. Does anyone post in the Russian composers thread "What's next, 'composers who don't wipe enough?" Not in a million years would someone post that.

So, why do people come here to the "gay composers" thread and scoff asking "who cares?" or "why does it matter?"

Music wise, it doesn't. But I think it's pretty important to recognize identities that have been historically oppressed, especially if some people try to erase these identities.


----------



## Morimur

Strange Magic said:


> Precisely. Sad that it has been abused by smirkers.


Yes... those pesky smirkers.


----------



## mstar

Morimur said:


> Ah, Mother Russia . . . What would America do without its arch nemesis.


Replace it with Japan? I mean, there _were_ those WWII US concentration camps...


----------



## Morimur

mstar said:


> Replace it with Japan? I mean, there _were_ those WWII US concentration camps...


Errr... nevermind.


----------



## Strange Magic

Yup. As Schiller put it so cogently: "mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergebens." Time to shut 'er down.


----------



## ArtMusic

Arcangelo Correlli was probably gay. I love his concerto grossi opus 6.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

EdwardBast said:


> I'll give you a hint: It is for the same reason he referred to his lover Aleksey Apukhtin as "Lyolya" in his correspondence with his brother Modest.
> 
> The proof is in Tchaikovsky's own writing. From Alexander Poznansky's fine biography of the composer:
> 
> From a letter to Modest: "… from today I seriously intend to enter into lawful matrimony with anyone at all" … "I find that our _inclinations_ are for both of us the greatest and most insurmountable obstacle to happiness, and we must fight our nature with all our strength" (p. 182)
> 
> and later:
> 
> "I am … abandoning forever my habits and shall strive to be counted no longer among the company of XXX." … "I think exclusively of the eradication of pernicious passions from myself." You'll love this Zhdanov: The above two passages are quoted from "P. I Chaikovskii, Pis'ma k rodnym, ed. *Vladimir Zhdanov*, (Moscow, 1940)
> 
> "An open secret in certain circles, Tchaikovsky's homosexuality and the secretiveness it involved nonetheless fostered misunderstanding and fed rumor and gossip" (p. 605)
> 
> "Over the years … truthful information about Tchaikovsky's private life was more and more suppressed, first by the composer's relatives and later by the Soviet authorities." (P. 607)
> 
> There is another letter in which the composer is about to tell his brother about a fascinating incident that took place in a gay club in Paris, at which point a rather long passage was cut by the editor.
> 
> In any case, the whole world knows about and accepts Tchaikovsky's sexual orientation, and there are about 100 pages of Poznansky's biography in which it is discussed. Of course, any publisher distributing this biography in Russia would be fined under the gay propaganda law.


I will once again refute this post by posting this link:

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4366973/

This Tchaikovsky biography is freely available in Russia. Why are such posts considered normality on this board? I guess insulting Russia and Russian people is now 'good tone' and is largely welcomed.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

isorhythm said:


> The small contingent of Russian nationalists is one of the more interesting things about this forum, tbh.


I personally find the contingent of anti-Russian propagandists interesting as well.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

EdwardBast said:


> Among the reasons this thread is important is because, as noted above, denying the sexual orientation of gay composers is part of a campaign to criminalize free speech about homosexuality in Russia. This is perhaps why we see the spectacle of TC members from that country posting about Tchaikovsky while demonstrating ignorance about the most basic facts of his life. Since the publication, sale, advertising and reviewing of accurate biographies of Tchaikovsky could now result in a 50,000 ruble fine under current Russian law, it is unlikely the state of knowledge is going to improve.


I realize that you're an avid Russia hater but what do you say about the fact that this book is freely sold in Russia? You know, by posting such comments, you only show your own hatred of Russians, nothing more. You make highly offensive claims about the Russian people, but I'm sure that this is considered normal on this board.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Cosmos said:


> I made this comment the other day, but I'll say it again because I think it's important to consider, a general point to everyone:
> 
> The answer is, no, a composer's sexuality doesn't matter when talking about music. Good music is good music despite who wrote it. Whether the composer is a woman, or French, or Russian, or Italian, any other category, it doesn't matter when talking about good music.
> 
> But, does anyone post in a woman composers thread "who cares if they're women?" No, they don't. Does anyone post in the French composers thread, "Who gives a crap about if they were French?" Nope. Does anyone post in the Russian composers thread "What's next, 'composers who don't wipe enough?" Not in a million years would someone post that.
> 
> So, why do people come here to the "gay composers" thread and scoff asking "who cares?" or "why does it matter?"
> 
> Music wise, it doesn't. But I think it's pretty important to recognize identities that have been historically oppressed, especially if some people try to erase these identities.


Ok, one can of course recognize the kind of oppression that Tchaikovsky's homosexaulity might have caused him, but to tell you the truth, homosexuality at the time wasn't only oppressed in Russia. So using these kinds of arguments to continue propagating against Russia is quite silly. Let me remind you of Nazi Germany - German homosexuals were killed in gas chambers, thousands of them, and for some reason, no one seems to be as 'outraged' about that as they are about Tchaikovsky. You notice the pattern?


----------



## Fugue Meister

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Ok, one can of course recognize the kind of oppression that Tchaikovsky's homosexaulity might have caused him, but to tell you the truth, homosexuality at the time wasn't only oppressed in Russia. So using these kinds of arguments to continue propagating against Russia is quite silly. Let me remind you of Nazi Germany - German homosexuals were killed in gas chambers, thousands of them, and for some reason, no one seems to be as 'outraged' about that as they are about Tchaikovsky. You notice the pattern?


How are you taking any of these posts as being outraged by Tchaikovsky or any of EdwardBast's as being anti-Russian? Did I miss something or are you somehow misreading things here?


----------



## Cosmos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Ok, one can of course recognize the kind of oppression that Tchaikovsky's homosexaulity might have caused him, but to tell you the truth, homosexuality at the time wasn't only oppressed in Russia. So using these kinds of arguments to continue propagating against Russia is quite silly. Let me remind you of Nazi Germany - German homosexuals were killed in gas chambers, thousands of them, and for some reason, no one seems to be as 'outraged' about that as they are about Tchaikovsky. You notice the pattern?


As Fugue Meister said, where in my comment do you see me condemning Russia in such a way? Of course homosexuality was oppressed [and still is] throughout the world during Tchaikovsky's day.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Fugue Meister said:


> How are you taking any of these posts as being outraged by Tchaikovsky or any of EdwardBast's as being anti-Russian? Did I miss something or are you somehow misreading things here?


Well, if he's spreading an information that is false and using it to discredit Russia, how is that not anti-Russian?
He has claimed that such biographies are banned in Russia and I have disproved his claim. The spread of such information feeds the 'evil, barbaric' idea of Russia so well-nurtured by Western media outlets.


----------



## EdwardBast

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I realize that you're an avid Russia hater but what do you say about the fact that this book is freely sold in Russia? You know, by posting such comments, you only show your own hatred of Russians, nothing more. You make highly offensive claims about the Russian people, but I'm sure that this is considered normal on this board.


You are quite wrong. I have great admiration for the Russian people. It is only their governments and rulers from the beginning of time till today that I have had problems with. All of my favorite composers and most of my favorite writers are Russian. I have been an outspoken advocate of Russian music on TC and have published a great deal of analysis and commentary on Russian music here and elsewhere.

I'm glad Poznansky's biography is freely available in Russia. What I wrote was that it _could_ be fined (50,000 roubles) under the language of the gay propaganda law, not that it is currently being fined or censored. The fact that it has not as yet been fined or censored suggests only that the law is applied selectively and arbitrarily, or else no one cares enough (as yet) to apply the law to scholarly publications. Let's hope they don't. But having vaguely written laws on the books is dangerous.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

EdwardBast said:


> You are quite wrong. I have great admiration for the Russian people. It is only their governments and rulers from the beginning of time till today that I have had problems with. All of my favorite composers and most of my favorite writers are Russian. I have been an outspoken advocate of Russian music on TC and have published a great deal of analysis and commentary on Russian music here and elsewhere.
> 
> I'm glad Poznansky's biography is freely available in Russia. What I wrote was that it _could_ be fined (50,000 roubles) under the language of the gay propaganda law, not that it is currently being fined or censored. The fact that it has not as yet been fined or censored suggests only that the law is applied selectively and arbitrarily, or else no one cares enough (as yet) to apply the law to scholarly publications. Let's hope they don't. But having vaguely written laws on the books is dangerous.


Well, it's great to know that you do not hate the Russian people. However, I must warn you that a lot of the information available these days about Russia in Western outlets is largely misleading. Not to say all of it, but a lot of it. There is a reason for this. And please, statements like 'it could' really don't prove anything. I could also state many things that 'could' be true, however this doesn't help anybody. My suggestion to anyone finding out anything about Russia - check multiple sources and compare them, just as a side-note.


----------



## BalalaikaBoy

perhaps not the most shining of examples, but Tchaikovsky and Britten were both boy lovers


----------



## Cosmos

BalalaikaBoy said:


> perhaps not the most shining of examples, but Tchaikovsky and Britten were both boy lovers


Huh, I knew that about Britten [though the boys in his circle said he never did anything sexual with them], but hadn't heard that about Tchaikovsky.


----------



## Cosmos

Reynaldo Hahn is another gay composer, Venezuelan/French who was also in love with Marcel Proust for a time. He wrote some beautiful art-songs, and a charming, though not very interesting, piano concerto.


----------



## Pugg

Cosmos said:


> Huh, I knew that about Britten [though the boys in his circle said he never did anything sexual with them], but hadn't heard that about Tchaikovsky.


You are joking are you?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Sorry -deleted post. I posted without looking back at the whole context


----------



## Tsaraslondon

BalalaikaBoy said:


> perhaps not the most shining of examples, but Tchaikovsky and Britten were both boy lovers


I'm not sure what you are driving at here. Are you suggesting that Britten and Tchaikovsky were not only homosexual, but paedophiles? For those who are unsure, there is a difference between the two, and in fact the vast majority of paedophiles are heterosexual.


----------



## Fugue Meister

GregMitchell said:


> I'm not sure what you are driving at here. Are you suggesting that Britten and Tchaikovsky were not only homosexual, but paedophiles? For those who are unsure, there is a difference between the two, and in fact the vast majority of paedophiles are heterosexual.


Prove it.......


----------



## Stirling

Copland? Soft? Are you kidding?


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Fugue Meister said:


> Prove it.......


Can you prove the reverse? Here in the UK, there have recently been many revelations of cover ups involving people in both public life (the BBC) and politics. Almost all the perpetrators were heterosexual.


----------



## EdwardBast

Fugue Meister said:


> Prove it.......


While someone is looking up statistics, I just wonder why one would imagine anything else? Absent evidence to the contrary, I would assume the percentage of homosexuals who are pedophiles is likely the same as the percentage of bus drivers, teachers, composers, lawyers, and priests - okay, maybe not priests  - but you get the idea. Just stands to reason, given the percentage of the population that is homosexual, doesn't it?

Edit: I did a few minutes of internet research myself:

Professor Gregory Herek of UC Davis, after a review of experimental literature on the topic, concludes:

"The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children."

The blog contains bibliography for more exhaustive studies of the subject:

http://psc.dss.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/HTML/facts_molestation.html


----------



## Fugue Meister

GregMitchell said:


> Can you prove the reverse? Here in the UK, there have recently been many revelations of cover ups involving people in both public life (the BBC) and politics. Almost all the perpetrators were heterosexual.


I think I mistakenly thought you were implying to like (specifically) boys and the perpetrators were heterosexual. In my mind I think I applied the definition of "pederast"... all I was saying is that if the pedeophile was heterosexual, wouldn't that mean they were molesting little girls not boys?..


----------



## Cosmos

Pugg said:


> You are joking are you?


No. If I'm mistaken, then say so.


----------



## Cosmos

Are we going to talk about gay composers, or are we just going to talk about how some of you guys think gay = pedophile = perversion, because It's way too early in the morning for me to deal with this kind of crap on the "talk classical" forums of all places


----------



## Fugue Meister

Cosmos said:


> Are we going to talk about gay composers, or are we just going to talk about how some of you guys think gay = pedophile = perversion, because It's way too early in the morning for me to deal with this kind of crap on the "talk classical" forums of all places


I didn't really want to further the tangent of discussion in the first place but I didn't want anyone to think my initial post challenging GregMitchell was implying all homosexuals are pedos, or more homosexuals are pedos... Which I was not.

Sorry back to gay composers...


----------



## Cosmos

Fugue Meister said:


> I didn't really want to further the tangent of discussion in the first place but I didn't want anyone to think my initial post challenging GregMitchell was implying all homosexuals are pedos, or more homosexuals are pedos... Which I was not.
> 
> Sorry back to gay composers...


Sorry, just frustrated by implications. Shouldn't jump the gun. My comment was more a general direction at _those_ people who may not say it outright, but believe it.


----------



## EdwardBast

Fugue Meister said:


> I think I mistakenly thought you were implying to like (specifically) boys and the perpetrators were heterosexual. In my mind I think I applied the definition of "pederast"... all I was saying is that if the pedeophile was heterosexual, wouldn't that mean they were molesting little girls not boys?..


Apparently not. The way I read Gregory Herek's summary, it might be a mistake to assume that pedophiles necessarily have a sexual preference in the adult sense, although perhaps many might(?) As quoted above (#340):

"… many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children."


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Fugue Meister said:


> I think I mistakenly thought you were implying to like (specifically) boys and the perpetrators were heterosexual. In my mind I think I applied the definition of "pederast"... all I was saying is that if the pedeophile was heterosexual, wouldn't that mean they were molesting little girls not boys?..


Actually many paedophiles don't discriminate, and are likely to molest both boys and girls, Jimmy Saville being a good example. 
But what I was mainly concerned with was the linking of paedophilia and homosexuality. Paedophilia is classified a mental disorder. Homosexuality is not, though many religious bigots still see it as such.

As for Britten, there are theories that he may have been attracted to young boys, but, by all accounts, there were never any reports of impropriety. The heterosexual actor David Hemmings, who played Miles in the first production of "The Turn of the Screw" relates he was a precocious boy and well aware of Britten's attraction. He even tried to use it to his advantage, but Britten always remained the perfect gentleman and never acted inappropriately.


----------



## Figleaf

GregMitchell said:


> Actually many paedophiles don't discriminate, and are likely to molest both boys and girls, Jimmy Saville being a good example.
> But what I was mainly concerned with was the linking of paedophilia and homosexuality. Paedophilia is classified a mental disorder. Homosexuality is not, though many religious bigots still see it as such.
> 
> As for Britten, there are theories that he may have been attracted to young boys, but, by all accounts, there were never any reports of impropriety. The heterosexual actor David Hemmings, who played Miles in the first production of "The Turn of the Screw" relates he was a precocious boy and well aware of Britten's attraction. He even tried to use it to his advantage, but Britten always remained the perfect gentleman and never acted inappropriately.


The linking you mention was actually taught in schools as fact in the 80s and 90s, in the bad old days of Section 28- my C of E school, anyway. So it's fortunate that most people (?) of my generation who have been subjected to this kind of bigoted brainwashing don't actually believe it- hopefully anyway.


----------



## Tsaraslondon

Figleaf said:


> The linking you mention was actually taught in schools as fact in the 80s and 90s, in the bad old days of Section 28- my C of E school, anyway. So it's fortunate that most people (?) of my generation who have been subjected to this kind of bigoted brainwashing don't actually believe it- hopefully anyway.


I'm not so sure. There are still indications that many schools are failing in this area, particularly faith schools, something the British Humanist Association has exposed recently.


----------



## Lucas

Aramis said:


> Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, most of his life he was in ralationship with women.


What relationships with women ??? It is a complete invention. It is entirely and scholarly proven for long that Tchaikovsky was homosexual.


----------



## Xenakiboy

*Who give a **** about composers sexuality?*


----------



## Blancrocher

Xenakiboy said:


> *Who give a **** about composers sexuality?*


Well, G.F. Haas' sex life probably deserves one thread, at least.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Xenakiboy said:


> *Who give a **** about composers sexuality?*


Tumblr users give many, many asterisks. It's almost all they care about, really.


----------



## Xenakiboy

Blancrocher said:


> Well, G.F. Haas' sex life probably deserves one thread, at least.


:lol:

I completely agree with the notion of sexuality and its relation to art.
That being said, if they're Gay, Straight, Bi, Trans, whatever: it's insignificant to their music.

Unless we're talking about some composer that composed music while having ***, and was a sex obsessed maniac that tried to make his sex life a notorious part of his music career. 

Apart from the extremes, who really cares if Tchaikovsky was gay, Britten was gay, Barber was gay, Cage was gay, what if they where straight? :lol:


----------



## Guest

Xenakiboy said:


> *Who give a **** about composers sexuality?*


Do you know in wich scale gay composers usually write?


----------



## Xenakiboy

Traverso said:


> Do you know in witch scale gay composers usually write?


C major? :lol:

Composers who happen to be gay occupy every style. From the really light and fluffy to the really dark and heavy, how is it any significance?


----------



## aleazk

I only listen to music from confirmed gay composers.


----------



## Pugg

aleazk said:


> I only listen to music from confirmed gay composers.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Felix Mendelssohn was probably not heterosexual.


----------



## Judith

Lucas said:


> What relationships with women ??? It is a complete invention. It is entirely and scholarly proven for long that Tchaikovsky was homosexual.


He had relationships with women to hide his homosexuality as it wasn't acceptable in that era. He even got married but that was a disaster and then tried to drown himself before composing the Violin Concerto.


----------



## aleazk

Tchaikovsky was probably not heterosexual either.


----------



## Pugg

aleazk said:


> Tchaikovsky was probably not heterosexual either.


His death is surely surround by mystery.


----------



## Guest

Pugg said:


> His death is surely surround by mystery.


Very Russian.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Traverso said:


> Very Russian.


Not nearly as Russian as Mussorgsky who literally died from drinking too much vodka.


----------



## Guest

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Not nearly as Russian as Mussorgsky who literally died from drinking too much vodka.


----------



## EdwardBast

Pugg said:


> His death is surely surround by mystery.


Nothing mysterious about cholera.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

EdwardBast said:


> Nothing mysterious about cholera.


From Wikipedia "The timeline between Tchaikovsky's drinking unboiled water and the emergence of symptoms was brought into question. So was the possibility of the composer's procuring unboiled water, in a reputable restaurant (according to one account), in the midst of a cholera epidemic with strict health regulations in effect. Also, while cholera actually attacked all levels of Russian society, it was considered a disease of the lower classes. The resulting stigma from such a demise for as famous a personage as Tchaikovsky was considerable, to the point where its possibility was inconceivable for many people. The accuracy of the medical reports from the two physicians who had treated Tchaikovsky was questioned. The handling of Tchaikovsky's corpse was also scrutinized as it was reportedly not in accordance with official regulations for victims of cholera. This was remarked upon by, among others, composer Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov in his autobiography, though some editions censored this section."


----------



## Zhdanov

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Not nearly as Russian as Mussorgsky who literally died from drinking too much vodka.


what's russian about drinking hard liquors?


----------



## millionrainbows

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Not nearly as Russian as Mussorgsky who literally died from drinking too much vodka.


We can save this one for a thread called "Composers Who Drowned In Their Own Vomit."


----------



## EdwardBast

Johnnie Burgess said:


> From Wikipedia "The timeline between Tchaikovsky's drinking unboiled water and the emergence of symptoms was brought into question. So was the possibility of the composer's procuring unboiled water, in a reputable restaurant (according to one account), in the midst of a cholera epidemic with strict health regulations in effect. Also, while cholera actually attacked all levels of Russian society, it was considered a disease of the lower classes. The resulting stigma from such a demise for as famous a personage as Tchaikovsky was considerable, to the point where its possibility was inconceivable for many people. The accuracy of the medical reports from the two physicians who had treated Tchaikovsky was questioned. The handling of Tchaikovsky's corpse was also scrutinized as it was reportedly not in accordance with official regulations for victims of cholera. This was remarked upon by, among others, composer Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov in his autobiography, though some editions censored this section."


When someone brings up the "mystery" surrounding Tchaikovsky's death, they generally aren't concerned with the accuracy of the diagnosis, the source of infection, or the disposal of the body. Usually they are referring to that egregious nonsense about former classmates forcing him to commit suicide, which has been thoroughly debunked.


----------



## Abraham Lincoln

Zhdanov said:


> what's russian about drinking hard liquors?


Russians love vodka. It's not an untrue stereotype - even today, the alcoholism rate in Russia is one of the highest in the world.


----------



## helenora

how about gay performers? I´d start a thread with this title "Who isn't a gay among classical music performers?"

because there are so many of them ....and even if we think about some of them as straight it might not prove to be true, like in case of S.Richter (pianist). He had a wife, but it says nothing, it was just a marriage because of official reasons 

and after all people must agree that performers who aren't straight are very sensitive when it goes about interpretations...well, the topic can be expanded due to the fact that many very prominent figures in arts in general were gays...


----------



## Zhdanov

Abraham Lincoln said:


> Russians love vodka.


what do you mean 'love' and why it should be 'wodka' first off?



Abraham Lincoln said:


> the alcoholism rate in Russia is one of the highest in the world.


this has nothing to do with the national idea.


----------



## Pugg

helenora said:


> how about gay performers? I´d start a thread with this title "Who isn't a gay among classical music performers?"
> 
> because there are so many of them ....and even if we think about some of them as straight it might not prove to be true, like in case of S.Richter (pianist). He had a wife, but it says nothing, it was just a marriage because of official reasons
> 
> and after all people must agree that performers who aren't straight are very sensitive when it goes about interpretations...well, the topic can be expanded due to the fact that many very prominent figures in arts in general were gays...


Any prove of this? The same gossip goes around about Pogorelich, not guilty until proven otherwise .


----------



## Johann Sebastian Bach

Pugg said:


> Any prove of this? The same gossip goes around about Pogorelich, not guilty until proven otherwise .


Pugg - I know English isn't your first language but I don't think you mean being guilty of being gay do you?


----------



## helenora

Pugg said:


> Any prove of this? The same gossip goes around about Pogorelich, not guilty until proven otherwise .


mmm....quite a well-known fact among particular group of people , let's say people who participated in so called "theater parties" organized by a society/group Richter and his wife Dorliak belonged to. But officially it's quite hidden. anyway yes, I must admit that I can't prove it neither....so the rest of us here.....how can we prove it? we aren't in personal contact with them ( as only such thing would serve as a relevant prove....perhaps???), all the rest we rely upon is media, books, etc....and they are still are written by humans...it's human stories told by other humans.

and yes, heard the same about Pogorelich.many of them.....I think the one of the very few quite proved fact in history and well-known was about Wilde. Well-proved I think, way too well-known.

We must admit that we are going into personal life of other people here....and very personal, sexual-orientation....perhaps we shouldn't have to....but yes, we do, some gossip talk happens from time to time


----------



## Pugg

helenora said:


> mmm....quite a well-known fact among particular group of people , let's say people who participated in so called "theater parties" organized by a society/group Richter and his wife Dorliak belonged to. But officially it's quite hidden. anyway yes, I must admit that I can't prove it neither....so the rest of us here.....how can we prove it? we aren't in personal contact with them ( as only such thing would serve as a relevant prove....perhaps???), all the rest we rely upon is media, books, etc....and they are still are written by humans...it's human stories told by other humans.
> 
> and yes, heard the same about Pogorelich.many of them.....I think the one of the very few quite proved fact in history and well-known was about Wilde. Well-proved I think, way too well-known.
> 
> We must admit that we are going into personal life of other people here....and very personal, sexual-orientation....perhaps we shouldn't have to....but yes, we do, some gossip talk happens from time to time


Wilde is other end of the spectrum, he was kind of proud the way he was, but we saw it lately with C. Richard, those rumours seems to be going on forever and nothing was found to prove it, is he not gay? 
Where there's smoke, there's fire as they say in my country , so I do understand you , the problem I have that internet is a drain for gossip and rubbish.


----------



## Poodle

Pugg said:


> Wilde is other end of the spectrum, he was kind of proud the way he was, but we saw it lately with C. Richard, those rumours seems to be going on forever and nothing was found to prove it, is he not gay?
> Where there's smoke, there's fire as they say in my country , so I do understand you , the problem I have that internet is a drain for gossip and rubbish.


True dat, so true :tiphat:


----------



## gellio

Aramis said:


> Tchaikovsky wasn't gay, most of his life he was in ralationship with women.


No offense, but that doesn't mean anything.


----------



## Pugg

gellio said:


> No offense, but that doesn't mean anything.


You know that and I know that, however, ignorance is a bliss.


----------



## brianvds

Judith said:


> He (Thcaikovsky) had relationships with women to hide his homosexuality as it wasn't acceptable...


And this remained common until very recently. Among Hollywood actors, there is a whole list of gay actors who got married simply because their careers would have gone belly-up if their sexual orientation became public knowledge.

Also keep in mind that among the gay community, it is not at all uncommon for gay men to have very deep friendships with women. Gay men don't hate women; on the contrary, they probably like women more than they like men. Just not in the romantic sense. And women frequently like gay men a lot. As the saying goes, all of the really handsome, caring, decent men are either married or gay. 

Like it or not, Tchaikovsky was so gay he made Elton John look like the reverend Fred Phelps. And he liked adolescent boys to boot. Oh, the horror.


----------



## Pugg

brianvds said:


> And this remained common until very recently. Among Hollywood actors, there is a whole list of gay actors who got married simply because their careers would have gone belly-up if their sexual orientation became public knowledge.
> 
> Also keep in mind that among the gay community, it is not at all uncommon for gay men to have very deep friendships with women. Gay men don't hate women; on the contrary, they probably like women more than they like men. Just not in the romantic sense. And women frequently like gay men a lot. As the saying goes, all of the really handsome, caring, decent men are either married or gay.
> 
> Like it or not, Tchaikovsky was so gay he made Elton John look like the reverend Fred Phelps. And he liked adolescent boys to boot. Oh, the horror.


This:


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## sammusic93

As a gay person, I think a composers sexuality should never be an issue. Nor do I believe a persons sexual preference would have an affect on their music. From a LGBT rights/historical point of view it would have been nice to have more openly gay composers/musicians but I guess these composers were from a time when it was socially unacceptable.


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## jailhouse

gellio said:


> No offense, but that doesn't mean anything.


know someone who's still married dad is clearly at least bi which we know after discovering massive amounts of gay porn on his computer. Nothing is clearcut


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## Sloe

jailhouse said:


> know someone who's still married dad is clearly at least bi which we know after discovering massive amounts of gay porn on his computer. Nothing is clearcut


Why did you look on his computer?


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## jailhouse

...it was over 10 years ago, in high school, and it was a shared computer. I have no need to defend myself lol


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## hpowders

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> Pugg - I know English isn't your first language but I don't think you mean being guilty of being gay do you?


:lol::lol::lol:


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