# Authentic Beethoven Manuscript or Not?



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38141770

Heard this item being discussed on BBC Radio 4 on the Today Programme regarding a Beethoven manuscript 
The Professor of Music in Manchester felt it was a fake and the guy from Sotheby's who are auctioning the manuscript felt it was genuine. The 2 of them got in a bit of a shouting match which the presenter did not try to control, which was disappointing.
However it was clearly an area of disagreement and made me wonder just how do you decide if it is real or fake and just how many experts do you need?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Wow! That would be so exciting if it's true. I just took an extra blood pressure pill. I almost fainted!


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38141770
> 
> Heard this item being discussed on BBC Radio 4 on the Today Programme regarding a Beethoven manuscript
> The Professor of Music in Manchester felt it was a fake and the guy from Sotheby's who are auctioning the manuscript felt it was genuine. The 2 of them got in a bit of a shouting match which the presenter did not try to control, which was disappointing.
> However it was clearly an area of disagreement and made me wonder just how do you decide if it is real or fake and just how many experts do you need?


So far we only know the names of two experts who have examined the MS, Professor Cooper and Jonathan Del Mar. Both apparently decided it was a fake. Sotheby's claims to have had it reviewed by experts but won't say who the alleged experts are. This should give pause to any potential buyer. Not sure how many it will take to decide the issue.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Barry Cooper knows his Beethoven. He wrote one of the best modern Beethoven biographies, did a startlingly dull reconstruction of the 10th Symphony, and so forth. Del Mar produced what is considered the most accurate edition of the symphonies. So, heavyweights both. I have no idea about the Sotheby guy.

I can't identify the music. Something from 1817 with a viola part? Allegretto, B minor? Any ideas?


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> So far we only know the names of two experts who have examined the MS, Professor Cooper and Jonathan Del Mar. Both apparently decided it was a fake. Sotheby's claims to have had it reviewed by experts but won't say who the alleged experts are. This should give pause to any potential buyer. Not sure how many it will take to decide the issue.


Yes, I thought that was interesting. The Sotheby's man was not for saying who his 'World Class' Beethoven experts were, or how they decided on them. He was very defensive about the situation but then it is not everyday they will get to auction something like this and you would think they won't like this sort of publicity.
All for a bit of memorabilia


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"An alleged Beethoven score of his Allegretto in B minor has failed to sell at a London auction house after a expert on the composer's work [Cooper] challenged its authenticity. Sotheby's expected the 1817 score to sell for around £200,000."

http://www.cmuse.org/alleged-beetho...ell-at-auction-after-authenticity-questioned/

Says Cooper: "Sotheby's have not named a single Beethoven scholar who considers the writing to be Beethoven's ... whereas I could name six Beethoven scholars who are convinced this is not his handwriting, and have not yet encountered a single one who disagrees. Dr Michael Ladenburger, head of the Beethoven House in Bonn, has disputed its authenticity, and Sotheby's are well aware that another outstanding Beethoven scholar - Jonathan Del Mar - inspected the manuscript in person last week and confirmed that doing so made no difference at all. He was appalled that they were trying to sell it as genuine when it quite clearly was not."

Says John Suchet: "[Barry Cooper] has examined more Beethoven manuscripts, original handwriting, notation, than Simon Maguire [of Sotheby's] has had hot dinners. My money is on Barry Cooper! The piece is an obscure little item that Beethoven wrote quite late in life. He didn't give it an opus number, so it's unlikely he spent much time on it, or rated it highly. All points to a copyist for me."


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Having checked I see the manuscript did not sell at auction, the above differences of opinion being cited as the reason.
Interestingly the article I saw said that Christie's had earlier refused to sell the manuscript as they could not verify it to their satisfaction


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Maybe it's actually by Karl. Have they compared handwriting?


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Forgive my ignorance, is the image that appears on the video from this link the actual manuscript?

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38141770

My question is that when does the text lower right hand corner written in English rather than German?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I believe that text was added by an early owner, an English parson IIRC.


----------



## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

For the record, you can find a much clearer picture at the Sotheby's website:

http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions...ntinental-books-manuscripts-l16406/lot.4.html

There's also a rather complete description, a catalogue number (WoO 210), and so on.

And for more details from the lives of people who have a lot of money and like spending it irresponsibly, here's a lock of Beethoven's hair, from the same auction:
http://www.sothebys.com/content/sot...ntinental-books-manuscripts-l16406/lot.5.html


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

There was a chemical/biological analysis years ago on Beethoven's hair that proved he was poisoned. Is this true or not?

Please see this link:

http://aps.anl.gov/News/APS_News/2000/20001017.htm


----------



## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Poisoning yourself with Lead in the 18th century was not a rare occurrence. The likelihood that someone did it to him is beyond minuscule.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

pcnog11 said:


> There was a chemical/biological analysis years ago on Beethoven's hair that proved he was poisoned. Is this true or not?
> 
> Please see this link:
> 
> http://aps.anl.gov/News/APS_News/2000/20001017.htm


The details are in the book, 'Beethoven's Hair'. But of a long winded trawl but fascinating


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Doesn't look authentic to me. I think a Beethoven manuscript would have German curse words scribbled in the margins, like for every time he got interrupted while composing ... or just because he felt like it. That's the Beethoven I seem to know.

I mean, look at the Ninth Symphony. Beethoven has "Götterfunken" scribbled all over the place!


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

Given the same auction house sold the Mahler 2 manuscript on the same day, then it was far from a bad day at Sotheby's overall
£4.5 million for some scribblings on a piece of paper


----------



## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Interesting. At home I have a copy of the Richard Ford manuscript of the same composition, and I'll need to compare them.

But if Barry Cooper says it's a fake, it's a fake. There are some things that look Beethoven-ish, but quite a bit of it doesn't ring true to me either. I've looked at an awful lot of Beethoven manuscripts but I can't claim I'm an expert on Cooper's caliber.

For starters, it'd be weird for Beethoven to give two people the same little piece; I can't recall that ever happening in the instances I know of, but OTOH my memory's not what it used to be.


----------



## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

It is an interesting case where one expert can sway a sale at auction. Certainly if Barry Cooper had said he considered the manuscript genuine it would have definitely sold, but he is a renowned Beethoven expert as is Jonathan Del Mar, and they both said categorically it wasn't the genuine article. Having listened to the interview and followed the story it didn't seem Sotheby's threw enough weight behind proving beyond doubt that this was an original Beethoven manuscript, but then the two people they needed were on the other side.


----------



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Genuine or not, has anyone played this piece?


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

In authenticating manuscripts of any kind, provenance is key. Trying to debate authenticity from the document itself is a tricky business, and necessarily can result in a case against that is very strong (if there is an obvious problem), but can only result in a case for that is a lack of evidence against. I have been in this exact situation with a manuscript, not of a musical sort and in which I had no financial stake on either side. Ultimately, I was proven correct, by external evidence, against the opinion of the supposed experts who opposed its authenticity, and never a word of apology was made. Appeals to authority are always problematic as no one is such an expert that he or she cannot make a mistake. In the end, all arguments should be evaluated based on their merits and not on who is making them. (And the bottom line is that it is inherently very difficult to evaluate such material. There are also problems with "always does this" and "never does this" as hardly anyone is absolutely consistent in handwriting. In fact, too much conformity is often a sign of forgery.)


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

There will always be doubt, it's just how much especially when the said manuscript is about to go under the hammer 
Clearly the doubters seem to have won out with this one. I would like to know if Sotheby's are going to turn to the same experts again when they next look for authentication


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Haydn man said:


> There will always be doubt, it's just how much especially when the said manuscript is about to go under the hammer
> Clearly the doubters seem to have won out with this one. I would like to know if Sotheby's are going to turn to the same experts again when they next look for authentication


I doubt it. If they have any concern for integrity and their reputation, they will consult Cooper and Del Mar the next time an alleged Beethoven MS comes to their attention. If that is not the lesson they have taken away from this, then they are irredeemably stupid.


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

One of the dirty secrets of the manuscripts world is that experts are often paid to give their opinions, with an obvious financial advantage in pieces being authentic. (It isn't so direct as paying the expert to say it is authentic, as the experts who tend to say that things are authentic get more paid work. It can be a very subtle but equally devastating influence.) I once knew an autograph dealer who got out of the business because he said that most autographs on the market are fake or at least cannot reliably be sold as authentic. (The numbers are particularly bad for US presidents, celebrities and sports figures. Many studios had secretaries for the big stars to do the signatures, and with the invention of mechanical reproduction, things have just gotten worse.) As far as auction houses are concerned, they are in the business to make money. If they think they can make a boatload of cash for selling a questionable item, and get away with it, they will do so. Every auction house has examples of things it sold that were later revealed as fake (or something other than what it was sold as). The bottom line is buyer beware.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

In life you are more likely to ask for the opinion that agrees with the one you want to be true or hold to be so yourself.
Basic psychology really, and that's before you starting adding in the money factor


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> Doesn't look authentic to me. I think a Beethoven manuscript would have German curse words scribbled in the margins, like for every time he got interrupted while composing ... or just because he felt like it. That's the Beethoven I seem to know.
> 
> I mean, look at the Ninth Symphony. Beethoven has "Götterfunken" scribbled all over the place!


"Karl! KARL!! Go empty the götterdämmerung _pot de nuit_!"


----------



## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

pcnog11 said:


> Genuine or not, has anyone played this piece?


The piece is genuine; the question is whether the manuscript is genuine. There was a recording of it (under the name Allegretto for Richard Ford) by the Covington String Quartet on Monument Records. I think Amazon still has some copies.


----------



## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

JAS said:


> In authenticating manuscripts of any kind, provenance is key. Trying to debate authenticity from the document itself is a tricky business, and necessarily can result in a case against that is very strong (if there is an obvious problem), but can only result in a case for that is a lack of evidence against. I have been in this exact situation with a manuscript, not of a musical sort and in which I had no financial stake on either side. Ultimately, I was proven correct, by external evidence, against the opinion of the supposed experts who opposed its authenticity, and never a word of apology was made. Appeals to authority are always problematic as no one is such an expert that he or she cannot make a mistake. In the end, all arguments should be evaluated based on their merits and not on who is making them. (And the bottom line is that it is inherently very difficult to evaluate such material. There are also problems with "always does this" and "never does this" as hardly anyone is absolutely consistent in handwriting. In fact, too much conformity is often a sign of forgery.)


It's especially tricky with Beethoven, whose handwriting changed much over the years, and whose hand could be completely different at one time depending on how fast he was writing. There are some telltale things he did at certain periods of his life (e.g., the way the braces at the front of the staff are formed), but he was by no means consistent about them.


----------



## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Reading the description of the auction, it may be that this item is not technically a fake but instead something that was made as a copy and has now been misidentified as being in Beethoven's handwriting, perhaps unintentionally or perhaps due to the obvious financial incentive. This situation complicates matters because it may be the right age, and if the family has a connection to Beethoven, it may seem that it has a better provenance than it really does. 

In any case, I must extend my gratitude to gardibolt for indirectly bringing to my attention the CD of Beethoven's piano music played on historical instruments by Tobias Koch. It is very interesting, especially the last CD, with music played on the Orphica, which sounds something like a music box. (I presume that soft rhythmic tapping sound in the background is something in the mechanism that follows the keys pressed.)


----------

