# Round 1: Mozart Porgi Amor? Dreisig and Bindernagel



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I have some great soprano performances for you and ultimately you may have trouble picking a clear winner for the whole contest. Today Bindernagle sings in German as was customary for her time. Someone suggested Dreisig some time ago and I was greatly impressedd and Bindernagel swept away the competition some time ago in Ozean du Ungeheuer.




Soprano Vocals: Elsa Dreisig Conductor: Michael Schønwandt Orchestra: Orchestre national Montpellier Occitanie Poet: Lorenzo Da Ponte 




*Gertrud Bindernagel; "Porgi amor"; (Sung in German);; LE NOZZE DI FIGARO; Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart*


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have some great soprano performances for you and ultimately you may have trouble picking a clear winner for the whole contest. Today Bindernagle sings in German as was customary for her time. Someone suggested Dreisig some time ago and I was greatly impressedd and Bindernagel swept away the competition some time ago in Ozean du Ungeheuer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will be sloppy today. I listened to Elsa Dreisig as a background to something and noted it is very nice. Bindernagel was kind if intense, maybe I will prefer her in a different mood, but not know. Also, the background noise made me want to stop it. So Elsa Dreisig gets my vote, maybe a little unjustly.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Of these two ladies, I prefer Dreisig who has impressed me on disc quite a lot. This was her first recital disc and she would have been in her mid twenties (she turned thirty last year, I think). I would have liked a bit more chest in the lower portions of the aria, but then Bindernagel doesn't really use chest voice either.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

BBSVK said:


> I will be sloppy today. I listened to Elsa Dreisig as a background to something and noted it is very nice. Bindernagel was kind if intense, maybe I will prefer her in a different mood, but not know. Also, the background noise made me want to stop it. So Elsa Dreisig gets my vote, maybe a little unjustly.


I think you put Dreisig on my radar.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I listened to them while cooking. The piece is well known, so the German version has quickly banged against an invisible obstacle in my brain. (Like any text in Catalan, a couple seconds is needed to reveal it's not Spanish). Bindernagel's tempo was also if not strange, but a bit funeral. Though I'm in sympathy for her. In one of the polls I was impressed by her performance as well as her tragic fate. 
Dreisig sings it as you would expect. Though I would prefer Jessy Norman or Dorothea Roschmann in the part.


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Seattleoperafan said:


> *I think you put Dreisig on my radar.*


She's the real deal - @Tsaraslondon has covered the "actual singing ability" aspect of the judging and I'll weigh in with my science-based advanced algorithmic "Shaughnessy Test" to see whether she looks as if she has talent... Hold on... Testing.... Testing... Okay... I'm back.... She passed... Actual talent - Check... Looks as if she has talent - Check - Add her to future contests.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I think you put Dreisig on my radar.


No, it was @Tsaraslondon


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

Why do I remember these things ? Probably it is still a short time I am here.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Though from a recorded point of view Birdnagel’s is disadvantaged, I like her version best; though it is funereal in tempo (like the _Contessa _is depressed) Birdnagel handles it well. 
Dreisig sounds pretty enough, but there are many others who handle it more to my liking.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> Though from a recorded point of view Birdnagel’s is disadvantaged, I like her version best; though it is funereal in tempo (like the _Contessa _is depressed) Birdnagel handles it well.
> Dreisig sounds pretty enough, but there are many others who handle it more to my liking.


I don't think she'd win against the likes of Te Kanawa or Schwarzkopf, but, for a modern singer, she has much to offer, and she is very young here. Just in her mid 20s. I really liked this recital disc when I first heard it, though I don't think this is necessarily the most successful aria on the disc.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Of these two ladies, I prefer Dreisig who has impressed me on disc quite a lot. This was her first recital disc and she would have been in her mid twenties (she turned thirty last year, I think). I would have liked a bit more chest in the lower portions of the aria, but then Bindernagel doesn't really use chest voice either.


I don't know these things but I am not used to hearing singers using chest register in Mozart. I thought you were supposed to have as a very unified range which is why Callas was never a natural fit for Mozart.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't know these things but I am not used to hearing singers using chest register in Mozart. I thought you were supposed to have as a very unified range which is why Callas was never a natural fit for Mozart.


Maybe not the same way that you would use chest in *La Gioconda*, but most singers of the past would mix in some chest in the lower register. Callas sings a fabulous _Martern aller Arten _(in Italian) back in 1954 (she had sung the role of Constanze at La Scala in 1953) and though she doesn't chest as she would in Puccini or Verdi, her low notes are still solid. Many of today's singers just let the sound disappear when they get down lower, but many of Mozart's soprano arias dip down below the stave.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Here Callas also uses the lower notes lightly as befits the composer.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I was happy to see this but then I thought it was just an old thread that momentarily resuscitated because someone found a way (surprise,surprise) to segue over to talk about ........oh you know......who is it........that soprano you guys like.......the one on the Bergonzi Tosca!

But then Tsaras or someone seemed to be talking about Porgi Amor a few hours ago. So I'll go.

Rarely do I hear a soprano deemed good enough to record these classic Mozart soprano arias, who does not sound essentially enjoyable and thats pretty much the same here. I really enjoyed the chamber-esque conducting on the modern recording and she sang it well. But to be a "fall-in love-with-her" Countess, with this simple an approach, would require, for me, more warmth of voice than she has. The older soprano seemed to have similar virtues but I imagined that if the recording technology were the same as her counterpart, I would find her voice more compelling.

Never heard of either one. You do keep coming up with them John!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I was happy to see this but then I thought it was just an old thread that momentarily resuscitated because someone found a way (surprise,surprise) to segue over to talk about ........oh you know......who is it........that soprano you guys like.......the one on the Bergonzi Tosca!
> 
> But then Tsaras or someone seemed to be talking about Porgi Amor a few hours ago. So I'll go.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliment! I sure did miss your fun posts while you were in your busy season!! As a Southerner I was taught you never say " the older lady".... I would have said the lady from the older recording 😜 I always enjoy your refreshing posts and your unique perspectives😍😍😍😍😍


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Thanks for the compliment! I sure did miss your fun posts while you were in your busy season!! As a Southerner I was taught you never say " the older lady".... I would have said the lady from the older recording 😜 I always enjoy your refreshing posts and your unique perspectives😍😍😍😍😍


More experienced lady?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I was happy to see this but then I thought it was just an old thread that momentarily resuscitated because someone found a way (surprise,surprise) to segue over to talk about ........oh you know......who is it........that soprano you guys like.......the one on the Bergonzi Tosca!
> 
> But then Tsaras or someone seemed to be talking about Porgi Amor a few hours ago. So I'll go.
> 
> ...


Actually it was SOF who brought up Callas with his assertion tha she was "not a natural fit for Mozart" which I contested with an example of Callas singing Mozart superbly, I would not however, recommend her recording of _Porgi amor, _which I've always thought should not have been published. Captured far too late, she can't command the absolute firmness this aria requires.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Actually it was SOF who brought up Callas with his assertion tha she was "not a natural fit for Mozart" which I contested with an example of Callas singing Mozart superbly, I would not however, recommend her recording of _Porgi amor, _which I've always thought should not have been published. Captured far too late, she can't command the absolute firmness this aria requires.


She did Marten Aller Arten very very well but it almost doesn't sound like her to these ears. Normally she was well known for using three voices when she sang and her normal style of singing is counter to the received wisdom I have heard that Mozart ideally should be sung by a voice that is seamless from bottom to top, but other people know much more about music than me.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

MAS said:


> Here Callas also uses the lower notes lightly as befits the composer.


So I’m not sure.... are you guys saying you like this???


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> She did Marten Aller Arten very very well but it almost doesn't sound like her to these ears. Normally she was well known for using three voices when she sang and her normal style of singing is counter to the received wisdom I have heard that Mozart ideally should be sung by a voice that is seamless from bottom to top, but other people know much more about music than me.


I don't think it sounds like a different singer, but she adapts her voice to the needs of the music rather than the other way round, which is another example of her famed musicality. She does this in the music of Cherubini, Spontini and Gluck too, using much less portamento than she would in _bel canto_, Verdi and Puccini. I think if she'd sung more Mozart in the earlier part of her career, she would have been an appreciable Mozart singer. Certain roles, like Donna Anna, Vitellia and Elektra woud have suited her very well.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

ScottK said:


> So I’m not sure.... are you guys saying you like this???


I like it, though it’s unusual repertoire for her. This was made as a test recording to see what kind of sound they could get - it was a far cry from what they actually decided upon, as this test recording had a much more distant sound than the close acoustic with which they ended up.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> So I’m not sure.... are you guys saying you like this???


I certainly do, she might not have been an ideal Mozart singer, but at the time she recorded this she could well have been an ideal Donna Anna, if not quite right for many of his other roles.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I like her sound for this because it makes a refreshing alternative to the standard Mozart sound but I thought she seemed a little rough. I’ll have to give another listen


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Op.123 said:


> I certainly do, she might not have been an ideal Mozart singer, but at the time she recorded this she could well have been an ideal Donna Anna, if not quite right for many of his other roles.


I can think of a few others. Constanze, which she did sing at La Scala in 1952, Vitellia, Elektra. People often suggest Queen of the Night, but it would probably have lain to high for her.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> I like her sound for this because it makes a refreshing alternative to the standard Mozart sound but I thought she seemed a little rough. I’ll have to give another listen


I don't know what you found rough. Her legato is impeccable, her breath control prodigious and her coloratura both accurate and tossed off with ease. Furthermore she reminds us that this in an appeal to Ottavio. Of course we should remember that it was never intended for release and recorded only so that the recording team could get a feel for her voice, but she is incapable of being dull and her execution of the music uncannily accurate.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know what you found rough. Her legato is impeccable, her breath control prodigious and her coloratura both accurate and tossed off with ease. Furthermore she reminds us that this in an appeal to Ottavio. Of course we should remember that it was never intended for release and recorded only so that the recording team could get a feel for her voice, but she is incapable of being dull and her execution of the music uncannily accurate.


I thought she was not landing on some pitches but finding them in a way more acceptable in larger romantic music. I also thought she sounded shrill at the beginning of the coloratura. I’ll have to give another listen and see if it strikes the same way again. I’m definitely on her side😉🤓


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't know what you found rough. Her legato is impeccable, her breath control prodigious and her coloratura both accurate and tossed off with ease. Furthermore she reminds us that this in an appeal to Ottavio. Of course we should remember that it was never intended for release and recorded only so that the recording team could get a feel for her voice, but she is incapable of being dull and her execution of the music uncannily accurate.


So here's what I got. I listened about 3 or 4 more times, finding myself somewhere in between. Her finding the notes thing was some kind of nitpicking of mine over nothing but I was definitely finding the tone inconsistent in quality in a way I didn't like. BUT....all listens were on my phone. When I listened through my car speakers it was a different sound. The beauty and fullness of the voice really filled in whatever I was missing. I think she would have made a wonderful Donna Anna, not stereotypically Mozartian, and in a good way!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> So here's what I got. I listened about 3 or 4 more times, finding myself somewhere in between. Her finding the notes thing was some kind of nitpicking of mine over nothing but I was definitely finding the tone inconsistent in quality in a way I didn't like. BUT....all listens were on my phone. When I listened through my car speakers it was a different sound. The beauty and fullness of the voice really filled in whatever I was missing. I think she would have made a wonderful Donna Anna, not stereotypically Mozartian, and in a good way!


Youtube clips can often be dud transfers as well. Actually there were two takes, both of which appear on this set from Warner, which also probably has the best sound. They don't differ much, but I thought she seemed more relaxed in the second take. It's hard to know which one you are hearing on youtube.

(Forgot to add photo of the set).


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