# Bullying



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Last week here in Australia, the first ever "Anti-Bullying" day was observed. During the same week, a video surfaced (that has subsequently gone "viral") of a bullying incident in a school in Western Sydney.

Bullying can be defined as any type of intimidation - physical, verbal, psychological. It seems to be a hot topic here in Australia in terms of schools. A number of former students have sued schools they were in for not doing anything about bullying against them. There have also been a number of books written by psychologists about bullying in the workplace. Apparently, companies lose millions of dollars every year due to bullying.

I wasn't bullied in school, but I had to keep my love of classical music under wraps. There was a gay music teacher at our school, and I was scared of being compared to him if I revealed that I liked classical music. Obviously, I felt different, and bullies like to pick on people who are different. I wouldn't exactly call what happened to me to be bullying, but I definitely would have been bullied and isolated if I would have tried to make my interest in classical music more apparent.

I know people who have been bullied in school and in the workplace. Friends and family members. It has a detrimental psychological effect for years after it occurs. Some people have to change schools or leave their job due to this. & psychological studies show that people who have been bullied often turn out to become bullies themselves.

I am interested in whether any people here have been bullied, or know people who have. Is it just an Australian phenomenon? I doubt it, it's part of human nature, I think. I'd be interested in people's stories and observations, even from people who have been or are bullies (but I doubt that they'd reveal that, it's not exactly edifying). But I'm interested in more than just the victims' perspective...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

It's a big deal in America, and most schools have been moving to severely curb it.
I was never bullied myself, and neither were my son, my daughter, or my siblings, and I've never bullied anybody - hey, should I start doing it in my new role as a moderator?:devil: Just kidding... But back to bullying, this being the case, I can't offer you the victim or the perpetrator's perspective, but I've certainly seen many people who got scarred by the experience.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

> It's a big deal in America, and most schools have been moving to severely curb it.


The same thing has been happening here in Australia - a lot of resources are being spent in schools to tackle bullying - like training teachers how to deal with it (eg. putting on workshops for teachers run by psychologists).

One thing that the literature talks about is how to deal with bullies if you are being bullied. This brings up the question as to whether (when being bullied), do we try to change our own behaviour/response in a subtle way or do we confront the bully more openly? Maybe both, but that's not always easy. Obviously, the principals in schools and managers in workplaces have to do the latter. But, as has been apparent in various court cases, often they just ignore the problem and the victim of the bullying has to leave. The bully stays and just continues causing problems for the school or company...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> The same thing has been happening here in Australia - a lot of resources are being spent in schools to tackle bullying - like training teachers how to deal with it (eg. putting on workshops for teachers run by psychologists).
> 
> One thing that the literature talks about is how to deal with bullies if you are being bullied. This brings up the question as to whether (when being bullied), do we try to change our own behaviour/response in a subtle way or do we confront the bully more openly? Maybe both, but that's not always easy. Obviously, the principals in schools and managers in workplaces have to do the latter. *But, as has been apparent in various court cases, often they just ignore the problem and the victim of the bullying has to leave.* The bully stays and just continues causing problems for the school or company...


I think that with our overblown culture of lawsuits and the fact that we have the highest ratio of lawyers per inhabitant of all world nations, our grade schools are terrified of being sued, so more often than not they don't ignore the problem. I've seen lots of bullies being expelled from schools.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Pretty much everyday at school. If anything good came of it, I have a pretty good idea of the sorts of people to avoid at least.

I don't think getting bullied by peers turns people into serial bullies themselves (that is mainly down to godawful, feckless parents), but can intimidate people into not speaking out if it happens to somebody else. I won't pretend the effects of bullying is just something you can get over though. When it is as sustained and prolonged as in my case, you end up with the most confused self-image that is heavily dependent on the feedback of others and could take your whole life to rebuild.

I know, this post is very LiveJournal.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Il Seraglio said:


> I don't think getting bullied by peers turns people into serial bullies themselves


It does happen, believe me. Fortunately it didn't happen in your case, but it's a well known phenomenon.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Yeah, it's definitely a big deal in America. I was lucky enough not to be subject to it, even though I was always somewhat of an outsider. I was ignored because I just wasn't the kind of person to be picked on. Or maybe I was just lucky throughout grade school.

I'm not sure about other countries (I suppose except Australia now), but I'm sure it must be a general phenomenon.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Of course bullying is a general thing. It's part of one's experience at school. Who would deny bullying is not part of one's experience while at school either directly or indirectly; whether as the target of bullies or bullying, or if one has not been bullied or bullying at school, I would say everyone would have at least seen/heard others involved in the act of bullying.

Bullying at work could be better described as harrassment where the legal implications (at least here in australia) are much clearer and enforceable.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I'd like to add that *cyber-bullying* is also becoming really common. That is, blackmailing and sending threatening or abusive messages through texting, email, or other electronic forms of communication. It's easier not to get caught, but it can cause major damage to someone's reputation.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'd like to add that *cyber-bullying* is also becoming really common. That is, blackmailing and sending threatening or abusive messages through texting, email, or other electronic forms of communication. It's easier not to get caught, but it can cause major damage to someone's reputation.


That's obvious. Belittling others happens even here!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

The bullying I experienced was probably rather tame compared to what we see on YouTube, etc., but it doesn't _seem _tame when it's happening to you and you're an adolescent or younger. It took me decades to recover from the experience if I ever really did. I'd say about the time I turned 40 I started gaining confidence until I felt accepted and even well loved by some, but it took a long time and probably held me back from achieving more in life.

Having said all that, I don't think the kid who was bullied in the viral video should have resorted to violence himself, however much the little coward deserved it. As one of Asimov's characters often said, "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent." We should rise above it.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Growing up I didn't get bullied much when I lived in Canada, but for the short stint I moved to the U.S. things changed quickly. I experienced moderate bullying there, and witnessed some pretty nasty examples of it. Seeing someone who was just a regular kid like myself getting kicked in the head for no good reason one day in the gym locker room was not something that made me feel too safe at that school. I was occasionally called names and roughed up a little myself but nothing too severe luckily. But I found that the fear it instilled was really the worst part anyway. Not feeling safe in a place of learning is not really condusive to a good education. I also remember starting to hang out with some outcasts largely because I felt safer with that crowd. Looking back I'm thankful to be out of school and I think unless a kid is popular school years will often be the most difficult and brutal time in an individual's life.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

There are a lot of initiatives in the UK to combat bullying in schools as well - it's a 'hot topic'. From personal experience (and here I am with Il Seraglio in that my self-image was battered, and I have since had to be treated for major depression), the thing that I would most want to make clear is that bullying is not necessarily the stereotypical case of one person, or a select few individuals, constantly targeting the same weak victims.

Unfortunately - and this is what makes it hard to tackle - a lot of teenagers are all too easily cruel to anyone they perceive as different. When I was bullied, there was no one person who I'd look out for, knowing they had a vendetta; for me, _every_ other pupil (except the one friend I had) was a potential bully - walking down a street one day, some might call out names and throw stones at me, and then I'd never see them again; elsewhere, other strangers could say horrible things about my appearance, and then never appear in my life again. Sure, I might have been a strange kid by most people's standards, but all school children need to grow up understanding the true diversity of personalities and behaviours. Otherwise, if someone's characteristics stick out from the norm even slightly, then they are a potential target for everyone, and that vulnerability can damage them for the rest of their lives.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

I wasn't bullied because I think kids were a bit afraid of me, I think they thought I was a psycho (which I am).
There was a case I was the bully (not physical) and I'm verry regretful about it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Bullying at work could be better described as harrassment where the legal implications (at least here in australia) are much clearer and enforceable.


Yes, I think businesses are worried about losing money & they are finally doing something about these issues. Of course, as you say, they have to because of the law. But I know a few people who work with bullies in their workplace, and sometimes it's complicated. Some bullies have a kind of charm and charisma & they buddy up with those in power and tread on those without. Family members and friends of bullies outside work would swear that they are angels. But the people that work with them get the brunt of their "true" nature.



Huilunsoittaja said:


> I'd like to add that cyber-bullying is also becoming really common. That is, blackmailing and sending threatening or abusive messages through texting, email, or other electronic forms of communication. It's easier not to get caught, but it can cause major damage to someone's reputation.


Yes, interesting that you bring that up, because it reminds me, we had a resident cyber bully here on TC about 2 years ago (he joined the same time that I did). I remember having arguments on the boards with him about the merits of contemporary music, which he despised. I didn't have a problem with him calling a lot of the contemporary music "rubbish" but when he got personal and ridiculed my experiences or tastes, it got nasty. Received some abusive PMs from him, as did others apparently (again, he was charming to some and damning to others - not everyone here knew what was going on behind the scenes). He was eventually banned due to his bully behaviour.



Weston said:


> Having said all that, I don't think the kid who was bullied in the viral video should have resorted to violence himself, however much the little coward deserved it. As one of Asimov's characters often said, "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent." We should rise above it.


I agree that the victim shouldn't have resorted to retaliation. A lot of the times (in my experience of hearing from others) when the victim does that he/she opens themeslves up to more abuse. The bully cries foul and says he/she was innocent, or some other reason like it was all a bit of fun, no need for overreaction (playing on the "charm" and "charisma" factor again). But watching the video, the bully by punching the victim the second time was asking for a reaction. Obviously, it was out of proportion to what he thought it would be. & of course, it's hard to tell what happened before and after the incident.



Polednice said:


> From personal experience (and here I am with Il Seraglio in that my self-image was battered, and I have since had to be treated for major depression)...all school children need to grow up understanding the true diversity of personalities and behaviours. Otherwise, if someone's characteristics stick out from the norm even slightly, then they are a potential target for everyone, and that vulnerability can damage them for the rest of their lives.


I agree that society needs to - & clearly is - wake up to not only the negative effect that bullying can have on people's lives but also that we need to promote "diversity" as you say. I think that tolerance is also important as part of this, although more politically correct commentators say that it isn't enough, but it is a good starting point, imo...


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

actually how define bully? I was fighting, bullying, get bullied, all sort of social "activity" when at school. some of them become good lessons, become memories and again it teach about socialization outside the home. I mean, if everybody nice at school, it will not prepared much for you to jump into working environment. It's how the world we live in, not everybody is nice and thing doesn't always flow as we wish.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

jurianbai said:


> actually how define bully? I was fighting, bullying, get bullied, all sort of social "activity" when at school. some of them become good lessons, become memories and again it teach about socialization outside the home. I mean, if everybody nice at school, it will not prepared much for you to jump into working environment. It's how the world we live in, not everybody is nice and thing doesn't always flow as we wish.


You make a good point, bullying is hard to define and distinguish from the usual things that kids (& adults!) get up to in their social interactions. But I think that bullying tends to be more systematic, not just like a one-off fight or put-down. It's the type of thing that tends to continue long term. Notwithstanding that, Polednice has argued above that it can also be random and spontaneous. So it comes in all forms, I guess.


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

and then there is more about the 'victim' itself to define bullying. some extrovert person will easily over the matter while introvert can get annoyed and thus get more psychological damages. unless it is physicall. other point is the motive of bully, if the motive is for example racially? or just a simple physical appearances... (for ladies it's matter!)


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

> and then there is more about the 'victim' itself to define bullying. some extrovert person will easily over the matter while introvert can get annoyed and thus get more psychological damages.


Yes this is true, every "victim" reacts & deals with bullying differently. My sister, who did have some run ins with bullies at school, simply met fire with fire. She'd match their put-downs. She was a quiet person, but with a forceful personality if pushed. I on the other hand, when dealing with (say) objectionable people - don't know if they can be called bullies - tend to avoid confronting situations. But sometimes I have been known to just supress my reaction for too long and then I reach boiling point and it all comes out at once. The sh** hits the fan, to use the proverbial.

The problem with bullies is that they tend to "push your buttons" & want to get a reaction. Of course, what that reaction will or won't be depends on the individual being bullied (as you suggest). So too, any long term effects...


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> and then there is more about the 'victim' itself to define bullying. some extrovert person will easily over the matter while introvert can get annoyed and thus get more psychological damages. unless it is physicall. other point is the motive of bully, if the motive is for example racially? or just a simple physical appearances... (for ladies it's matter!)


Well, right here at TC for example, folks "bully" each other when they have different and fringe tastes in something (such as a genre, a performer, a composer etc.). I think it is quite fun, so long as within the rules and tolerances of TC of course, without getting banned. :lol:


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Well, right here at TC for example, folks "bully" each other when they have different and fringe tastes in something (such as a genre, a performer, a composer etc.). I think it is quite fun, so long as within the rules and tolerances of TC of course, without getting banned. :lol:


Sure. I'm prepared to bully and ban everybody who is not a fan of Anna Netrebko.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

To be serious, it's okay on a forum to debate - sometimes in a heated & passionate way - things that we like or don't like. But when someone belittles another person and calls into question the validity of their experience or preferences, that's when things can start to get ugly. It's good that there are no such members currently on this forum, we all seem to be tolerant of our different points of view, etc...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> To be serious, it's okay on a forum to debate - sometimes in a heated & passionate way - things that we like or don't like. But when someone belittles another person and calls into question the validity of their experience or preferences, that's when things can start to get ugly. It's good that there are no such members currently on this forum, we all seem to be tolerant of our different points of view, etc...


I agree and that's how we want to keep it, but I'm sure you're being sarcastic with your last phrase, because unfortunately it's definitely not the case... But we're for giving people second and third and fourth... opportunities until it can't be done any longer.


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Weston said:


> The bullying I experienced was probably rather tame compared to what we see on YouTube, etc., but it doesn't _seem _tame when it's happening to you and you're an adolescent or younger. It took me decades to recover from the experience if I ever really did. I'd say about the time I turned 40 I started gaining confidence until I felt accepted and even well loved by some, but it took a long time and probably held me back from achieving more in life.
> 
> Having said all that, I don't think the kid who was bullied in the viral video should have resorted to violence himself, however much the little coward deserved it. As one of Asimov's characters often said, "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent." We should rise above it.


Hard to put into practice of course, but in principle I would be in favor of letting a bully do the year over, no matter how good the results of his/her exams are. Ideally school should not just be about how much you know about Napoleon or that you know that 5+5=10 but also about how you relate to other human beings, and if you're a bully you've failed the test.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

jhar26 said:


> Hard to put into practice of course, but in principle I would be in favor of letting a bully do the year over, no matter how good the results of his/hers exams are. Ideally school should not just be about how much you know about Napoleon or that you know that 5+5=10 but also about you relate to other human beings, and if you're a bully you've failed the test.


Some schools are "naming & shaming" bullies eg. at the school assembly. I hazard a guess that they also try to remediate the bully's behaviour by giving him/her access to psychological services. Problem with school counsellors is that they're few and far between, as far as the state school system here is concerned. Budgets are tight, etc. Expelling the bully is probably not an option, because then the problem just moves somewhere else. Repeating grades might be an idea (as you say) but the school system here at least is loathe to do this, students are marked on whether their schoolwork passes at least some of the outcomes & indicators & I hazard a guess that the bar is not set too high. Children who "fail" one year might be able to catch up the next, if their needs are met & their weak points targeted. That's in academic terms, I'd say that behavioural issues are in the psychologist's/counsellor's realm...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> Some schools are "naming & shaming" bullies eg. at the school assembly. ...


So... they're basically bullying the bullies?:lol:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> So... they're basically bullying the bullies?:lol:


Yeah, you can kind of put it like that - payback


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