# Moral music



## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Hello experts of the classical music!

I want to learn how to listen to the classical music, but I don't have experience yet except my own imagination. 
And I want to find out works which elevate a historical event or a great person or an ancient myth.

I imagine that each classical composition has it's plot, like a poem or a drama, and if it has been sung by a choir, we can follow the development of it easier, if we understand the words of the drama. Now, maybe only if we listen to the choir we are ready to understand the orchestra? Is that a logic explanation? 

When I imagine a moral composition, I think for example of the composition Semiramide by Rossini. For now I am not looking for the Christian music. As my name suggests, I would like to hear compositions like "Themistocles" or "Caesar". 

But above all I want to get into it with my head so that I can learn how to recognize which part of a composition represents a scene from a drama!

I am very thankful, in advance!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

But... all these things are extra-musical things. 
If you want to appreciate classical music, I recommend you to focus on the actual music, in all its abstraction.
Of course, one can make associations. But if you approach music just because you are interested in these kind of associations, you run the risk of overlooking some other real and interesting potentials of music.


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## pluhagr (Jan 2, 2012)

Some pieces of music, like operas and ballets, have plots or try and attempt to tell a story. But like aleazk said, these are all extra-musical things. There are some composers who are strongly opposed to programatic music, i.e. music with a story or program. One of these composers would be Vaughan Williams. I don't really understand what you are looking for music wise but you should focus on the music itself not the story behind it. Otherwise just go read a book with music in the background.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Aleazk and pluhagr are correct. The 'problem' is that music isn't very good at illustrating a plot because it is not a language and therefore cannot communicate sensible meaning like language does.

In another sense, however, most classical music does have a plot. In literature a plot is a dynamic succession of emotions, and this is also so in music, more exclusively and, perhaps, much more powerfully; this is to say nothing of the purely musical plots of motivic development etc.

In any case, based on your post I suggest Beethoven's _Coriolan_ overture, which is programmatic, his 4th Piano Concerto, in which the second movement has been likened to Orpheus playing to the animals, and his _Eroica_ symphony, which has been given a programme about Prometheus, although it is usually connected to Napoleon. This last especially, however, is a masterpiece of the highest order, and I would recommend listening to the music, rather than trying to fit the music to a story.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

I'll register a disagreement with the above posts. I don't think you need to be too concerned about the "musical" vs. "extramusical" dichotomy. Very few composers in the history of classical music were concerned with that dichotomy, so using it as your starting point brings you further from, not closer to, an understanding of classical music and its history. At most, the dichotomy brings you closer to a late-romantic and modernist view of classical music and its history (which of course for many people is perfectly satisfying).

This is especially the case since one of the things you're looking for, "works which elevate a historical event or a great person or an ancient myth," is something classical music supplies in such wonderful abundance. Composers have been doing it for centuries. The elevation of historical events, great persons, and myths was virtually the definition of Baroque opera and continues right into the present day. You'll find works fitting that description by composers whose status in the canon no one disputes: Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Verdi, Wagner, Stravinsky, etc. Clearly none of these composers was worried that these works have some "extramusical" elements, so there's no reason you should be either. There are literally hundreds of such works waiting for you to discover them, so I would say go out and get 'em. Concerns about "musical" vs. "extramusical" will only get in your way.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Honestly, I'm more interested in "immoral" music.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> When I imagine a moral composition, I think for example of the composition Semiramide by Rossini. For now I am not looking for the Christian music. As my name suggests, I would like to hear compositions like "Themistocles" or "Caesar".


I have two words for you: opera seria and an additional one: Metastasio. Look his libretti up; as it's been said, Handel, Gluck, Hasse, Vivaldi (I think?), Mozart and others from the 18th century wrote music to his VERY moral libretti, which are always set in Ancient Rome (there are some set in Greece and thereabouts (like Idomeneo), but maybe not by him. Anyway, 18th century composers _loved_ moral tales).

also as others said, the most story-based classical music is opera.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I've been particularly lucky in seeing Gluck in live performance: I've always found his music extraordinary, but I've been especially appreciative of creative, conceptual stagings of his work. I was sorry to miss his name on the "favorite classical-era composers" thread!

I enjoy the manifold ways opera music reinforces, embellishes, or even contradicts the words of the libretto. The 17th-18th century was a great period for creative "word painting." I'm also interested in an extra layer of extra-musical communication through music: the biography of the composer. I like to think of all the works the "heroic" Beethoven composed around the onset of his deafness along with Fidelio, and--most of all--the death of Monteverdi's wife as he has Orfeo plead for a glimpse of her, and imagines another marital reunion at the end of his life in "Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria." On the theme of _immoral_ music, have a look at L'incoronazione di Poppea! The concluding duet always makes me laugh!

To the thread's author: have fun!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> On the theme of _immoral_ music, have a look at L'incoronazione di Poppea! The concluding duet always makes me laugh!


oooh, that one is _filthy_! the original sex, drugs (or madness?) and... murder!

which Gluck did you see?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

deggial said:


> oooh, that one is _filthy_! the original sex, drugs (or madness?) and... murder!
> 
> which Gluck did you see?


It looks like it's online! Highly recommended:


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I'd definitely not forget the 'Representation of Chaos' by Haydn from The Creation - as well as the entire oratorio actually  - his other late oratorio, The Seasons, contains many picturesque elements as well.


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

*Some Ideas*

Hello Plutarch,

I think your attempted foray into the classical realm is an admirable one, which will pay off tremendously: both in the visceral experiences and it's ability to provoke thought.

I'll warn you however, classical music has the insidious ability to ruin popular music for people. The more you delve into classical the less patience you will retain for popular music; here's a hint: don't start snarking at your friends or loved ones.

From what I understand you want programmatic (narrative/story) music that is not religiously oriented. Despite previous posters, I believe this is a legitimate request, and a perfectly fine "foot in the door."

The logical place to start would be with vocal music:

I would avoid starting with Opera unless you are actually going to attend and/or watch a decent video on the internet with translations. Here are places you could start, I've taken into consideration your desire for historical and/or mythological programs:

*Vocal Music*

*Oratorios* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oratorio]

*Igor Stravinsky's _Oedipus Rex_ [



]

Arthur Honegger's _Jeanne d'Arc au Bûcher_ [



]

*Cantatas* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantata]

*Ralph Vaughan Williams' _Dona nobis pacem_ [



], this is a personal favorite - it does have religious elements but it is set primarily to texts by Walt Whitman

Sergei Prokofiev's _Alexander Nevsky_ [



]

Béla Bartók _Cantata Profana, "The Nine Splendid Stags"_ [



]

Carl Orff's _Carmina Burana_ [



]

*Song Cycles* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_cycle]

This will tend to be more akin to personal storytelling, not histories or myths, usually pieces set to poems. But if you go this direction the obvious choices are very German: Franz Schubert's _Die schöne Müllerin, Winterreise_, and _Schwanengesang_; Gustav Mahler's _Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, Kindertotenlieder_, and _Das Lied von der Erde_; Richard Struass's _Vier letzte Lieder_. In English you may enjoy Ralph Vaughan William's _On Wenlock Edge_, Aaron Copland's _Songs of Emily Dickenson_, or *Donnacha Dennehy's _That the Night Come_.

*Melodramas* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melodrama]

*Igor Stravinsky's _Persephone_ [



]

Claude Debussy's _Le martyre de Saint Sébastien_ [



]

*Non-vocal Music*

*Ballet*

This is a great way to start with non-vocal muscia because there is a clear story line you can follow; which will make an easy transition to purely musical forms.

*Maurice Ravel's _Daphnis et Chlo_e [



]

Sergei Prokofiev's _Romeo and Juliet_ [




Igor Stravinsky's _Rite of Spring_ [



]

Manuel de Falla's _El amor brujo_ [



]

*Orchestral*

All of these orchestral and chamber/solo pieces ARE explicitly narrative, all you have to do is follow a write-up or Wikipedia while you listen to them to better understand it.

Jean Sibelius'_ Lemminkäinen Suite_ [



]

Willilam Walton's _Henry V_ [



]

Gustav Mahler's _Symphony No. 3 in D minor_ (warning: this can be a tough nut to crack) [



]

*Chamber / Solo*

*Dmitri Shostakovich's _Piano Trio No. 2 in E minor_ [



]

Olivier Messaien's _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_ [



]

Charles Koechlin's _Les Chants de Nectaire_ (a three-hour solo flute composition; also a tough nut to crack) [



]

Maurice Ravel's _Gaspard de la Nuit_ [



]

I hope this gave you some ideas as you move forward. 
Happy listening and welcome to the forum!
* indicate my recommendation of where to start within that particular genre.

Well wishes,
Mitchell


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Special thanks to Mitchell and Eschbeg!

I will check the links. Yet, My thoughts are guided by the deepest experts of the ancient cultures who would say "the stronger the morals are, the more restrained are passions"(music?)
Beethoven could, accordingly, be an unrestrained romanticist who is lacking a virtue or two and the entire European music could be one not so very healthy music, and in ancient Greece Tragedies were not even partially purely instrumental, if I'm not wrong. Maybe even the music was like that of Nietzsche's compositions? Some would say "that is poor", but what if it pays off somewhere else? The modern music can certainly ruin the health and lead us into madness and degeneration (decadence). 

In the age of decadence ancient Greeks have removed all the words from music and supplied instruments with additional wires and melodies with additional instruments... 

"Unrestrained" is the end of all morals and when did Europe ever had solid morals? I guess it didn't had a music at that time. At least we can't hear it.

Kind regards.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Plutarch said:


> Special thanks to Mitchell and Eschbeg!
> 
> I will check the links. Yet, My thoughts are guided by the deepest experts of the ancient cultures who would say "the stronger the morals are, the more restrained are passions"(music?)
> Beethoven could, accordingly, be an unrestrained romanticist who is lacking a virtue or two and the entire European music could be one not so very healthy music, and in ancient Greece Tragedies were not even partially purely instrumental, if I'm not wrong. Maybe even the music was like that of Nietzsche's compositions? Some would say "that is poor", but what if it pays off somewhere else? The modern music can certainly ruin the health and lead us into madness and degeneration (decadence).
> ...


I'm having trouble following what your stand is. Correct me if I wrong: You believe that a moral society would not use music if they wanted to restrain their passions. The more "passionate" their music is, the less it is a moral society?

You have interesting ideas, but I would like to correct some statements. For one thing, there is a major theory that entire Greek Dramas were sung, like opera seria, and at least with choruses. Check this out: 



 It was written to be sung, there was musical notation. Thus, their use of music would be a sign of passion in their society, thus lower morals, according to your theory.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Well, this is not entirely my theory. I think if we compose a highly harmonic music, where all passions/voices/instruments are under the rule of the counterpoint, where no passion is dominant, then we descend in a sort of dancing ... a flow. Most music in Greece was for dancing and also the traditional music of the nations. When the counterpoint is broken, we become the highly disharmonic jumpy rock and roll or disco music which are decadent and where people don't need much energy like when they are dancing with others in harmony. But theoretically there might be an, to me unknown, difference between the harmonic music and the highly restrained. Perhaps we should make a competition between some texts and see how much music they have?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Plutarch said:


> Special thanks to Mitchell and Eschbeg!
> 
> I will check the links. Yet, My thoughts are guided by the deepest experts of the ancient cultures who would say "the stronger the morals are, the more restrained are passions"(music?)
> Beethoven could, accordingly, be an unrestrained romanticist who is lacking a virtue or two and the entire European music could be one not so very healthy music, and in ancient Greece Tragedies were not even partially purely instrumental, if I'm not wrong. Maybe even the music was like that of Nietzsche's compositions? Some would say "that is poor", but what if it pays off somewhere else? The modern music can certainly ruin the health and lead us into madness and degeneration (decadence).
> ...


I think this is just crap philosophy...


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> Special thanks to Mitchell and Eschbeg!
> 
> I will check the links. Yet, My thoughts are guided by the deepest experts of the ancient cultures who would say "the stronger the morals are, the more restrained are passions"(music?)
> Beethoven could, accordingly, be an unrestrained romanticist who is lacking a virtue or two and the entire European music could be one not so very healthy music, and in ancient Greece Tragedies were not even partially purely instrumental, if I'm not wrong. Maybe even the music was like that of Nietzsche's compositions? Some would say "that is poor", but what if it pays off somewhere else? The modern music can certainly ruin the health and lead us into madness and degeneration (decadence).
> ...


Do you know Bellbottom?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, that's disappointing. Turns out this is just another thread about what music "should" do.

Can we have a new subforum called "I hate it when other people enjoy themselves"?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Another suggestion: You might like Satie's Socrate, three vignettes from different phases of Socrates' life, written like plainchant. Because it is so non-emotional, the third movement, the death of Socrates, becomes more poignant.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

That whole "classical music tells a story" is crap, though well intended crap. That is generally taught to laymen who are first getting acquainted with classical music because it is a very immediate ANALOGY _to help those who do not yet understand musical form._

There are other words used to describe music, its structure, and they also borrow form the vocabulary about words and language -- you might read of the melodic / harmonic syntax of a piece, for example.

What the ANALOGY is, _is AN ANALOGY_ -- far too many beginners take this analogy as something quite literal, and there ya go, people making up full scripts and scenarios to describe "the meaning" of absolute (i.e. abstract) classical music.

There is almost no literal meaning to most classical music, at least the pieces with no literal reference or literal title, and those without sung text. For those, you can go with what the composer has titled the piece, what texts are being sung.

For the 'Absolute' music of Mozart's quintet for piano and winds, however, you are on your own -- which is as it should be.

I have no idea what 'moral' music is, by any definition of the word... whether it is closer to 'ethical' music, or music which has 'a moral to the story.' -- I think there is no such thing, moral music, that is.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Hamlet: 'There's nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.'

Ah yes, but we have to think *something*. To play a piece so as to convey an emotion to the listener is to play it more effectively than just to play it with great technique. 

Music will not make you good or bad, and I think it's best to appreciate music for what it is rather than only to listen to pieces that you can see a moral in, or believe to be uplifting.

It's only my opinion but I think that music provides an education in emotions that can be helpful to understanding one's life; also, I think that perceiving beauty in anything, music included, can help the kinder emotions. I agree with a lot of what PetrB has said, above, but I am just addicted to using words and literature as an analogy, sorry. 

And I think of the Ancient Mariner, who shot the innocent albatross out of sheer malice and who was stranded between death and life until he saw the beauty of the water snakes 'and blessed them unaware'. 

Beauty heals...


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ah!... I missed PetrB's posts!.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think music can convey meaning, but it is not the same kind of meaning as our spoken language. The meaning of a certain piece of music can never be entirely summed up in a simple sentence. The meaning inherent in music is essentially beyond words, but that does not mean it does not communicate something. 

I also think there can be positive or negative intention placed in music, therefore it does have a moral aspect to it. In classical music this can be more of a complex relationship as the performer(s) are usually not the composer of the actual piece. Therefore I believe an interpreter can actually enhance or detract certain emotive qualities in the composition. I think there have been cases where words and titles have been added to music after the music has already been composed, in which case those specific words may not have a very close relationship with the actual music, but that doesn't mean the music ceases to communicate. In other cases where a composer writes a piece with a certain theme, or text in mind, I absolutely believe this has an effect on how the music turns out. Obviously the music will not have the same kind of literal meaning as the text, but to imply that lyrics/words have no effect on the actual music or are completely separate I believe is incorrect.


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, Plutarch, you might want to stick with Plato...
This is from my trusty Burkholder, summarizing a passage from Plato's _Republic_


> Only certain music was suitable, since habitual listening to music that roused ignoble states of mind distorted a person's character. Those being trained to govern should avoid melodies expressing softness and indolence. Plato endorsed two _harmoniai_--the Dorian and Phrygian, because they fostered temperance and courage--and excluded others. He deplored music that used complex scales or mixed incompatible genres, rhythms and instruments. In both his _Republic_ and _Laws_, Plato asserted that musical conventions must not be changed, since lawlessness in art and education led to license in manners and anarchy in society. Similar ideas have been articulated by governments and guardians of morality ever since, and ragtime, jazz, rock, punk, and rap have all been condemned for these very reasons.


I actually think the topic of music and ethics is an interesting one, since music affects us at a deep level, and our ethical choices are conditioned by the ways we are accustomed to thinking and feeling. But of course it is much more complicated a relationship than Plato lets on.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think the idea of narrative is a decent analogy to any music with a complex structure such as sonata form. It can't be taken too far or too literally of course, but it could help people learn to listen with more awareness of structure.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

hreichgott said:


> Well, Plutarch, you might want to stick with Plato...


Plato was an important influence, of course, but you don't have to go all the way back to ancient Greece to find music written for (or perceived as) the promotion of noble morals. This was a common view in the Baroque period as well. Johann Mattheson, one of the great all-around musicians of the late Baroque, wrote in his treatise _The Complete Music Master_ of 1739 that the study of morality is something "the musician must master in order to represent virtue and evil with his music and to arouse in the listener love for the former and hatred for the latter. For it is the true purpose of music to be, above all else, a moral lesson." As others have noted here, this belief most directly applies to _opera seria_, where arias served as exactly the kind of musical illustration of moral sentiments that Mattheson was describing; but it is interesting to note that he goes on to apply this thinking to instrumental music as well.


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## ClassicalCumulus (Jul 24, 2013)

Mitchell said:


> I'll warn you however, classical music has the insidious ability to ruin popular music for people. The more you delve into classical the less patience you will retain for popular music; here's a hint: don't start snarking at your friends or loved ones.


I couldn't disagree with you more; if anything, it could *help* one appreciate popular music more so than they did, before delving into the world of classical music. You should check out some of these popular musicians' credentials, and I'll guarantee you'll find degrees within college music schools; meaning a lot of them are classically trained. Hell, Jonny Greenwood has performed Riech's _Electric Counterpoint_, and he's in one of the most influential bands of our era. You're blatantly stating classical music is superior to popular music, when in reality, the two forms are becoming more indistinguishable every day.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I believe your statement is one of the many reasons why more people don't get into classical music: they believe they must understand everything otherwise they'll feel dumb, and only pretentious intellectuals can truly appreciate it. I'm a 28 year old kid who just started listening to classical music six years ago, and never once did I ever feel the need to be "snarky" about it. If anything, I was desperately trying to get my friends to listen to it because I straight up love it so much!


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

ClassicalCumulus said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more; if anything, it could *help* one appreciate popular music more so than they did, before delving into the world of classical music. You should check out some of these popular musicians' credentials, and I'll guarantee you'll find degrees within college music schools; meaning a lot of them are classically trained. Hell, Jonny Greenwood has performed Riech's _Electric Counterpoint_, and he's in one of the most influential bands of our era. You're blatantly stating classical music is superior to popular music, when in reality, the two forms are becoming more indistinguishable every day.
> 
> I don't mean to sound harsh, but I believe your statement is one of the many reasons why more people don't get into classical music: they believe they must understand everything otherwise they'll feel dumb, and only pretentious intellectuals can truly appreciate it. I'm a 28 year old kid who just started listening to classical music six years ago, and never once did I ever feel the need to be "snarky" about it. If anything, I was desperately trying to get my friends to listen to it because I straight up love it so much!


Another fantastic over-reaction to playful comment.

_"You're blatantly stating classical music is superior to popular music."_
Nope. You are inferring that.

_"I don't mean to sound harsh."_
Yes you do, otherwise you wouldn't.

_"I believe your statement is one of the many reasons why more people don't get into classical music: they believe they must understand everything otherwise they'll feel dumb, and only pretentious intellectuals can truly appreciate it."_

I didn't realize that posting on this forum gave me such power! I took almost an hour to directly respond to a new member's specific request for recommendations including links to references and a dozen-ish thoughtfully chosen YouTube clips.

This was after most of the other members spent their time telling the new member what they _should want _to listen to and what music _should do/is_. And you then imply that I'm a pretentious intellectual. P.S. if he had asked for folk or black metal recommendations I would have obliged him with those also. I was attempting to be helpful, give encouragement, and made some playful comments. You're reaction is more of a reflection on your _stuff_ than it is about my post.


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## ClassicalCumulus (Jul 24, 2013)

> I didn't realize that posting on this forum gave me such power!


Of course it does. I'm assuming your thoughts and ideas go outside of this forum, so I take what you say on here as seriously as I would if you said it to my face.



> I was attempting to be helpful, give encouragement, and made some playful comments. You're reaction is more of a reflection on your stuff than it is about my post.


Your playful comments are 'playful' because they are so deeply embedded in your mind that it's just offhand to you now. That's what worries me. Plutarch is brand spanking new to this culture, and I personally believe someone should be introduced to classical music in the most objective way possible. A playful comment could potentially shape his entire view of how he should act or believe, whether he knows it or not. You weren't being playful; you made your statement as a matter of fact. That's what tricked my trigger.

I think you taking the time for OP is wonderful and genuinely appreciate your efforts! It's just that your asides were off-putting so I responded in kind. That playful paragraph carries heavy weight, Mitchell. That's all I'm saying. If you want to start a private discussion, I'm all for it!


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Plutarch, you should check out Bedrich Smetana's 'Ma Vlast' - it's about the national spirit of the Czech people and depicts many settings and legends from that culture. He seems to have had specific images in mind (the rivers, the Castle Vysehrad, etc.) as well.


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

Ramako said:


> The 'problem' is that music isn't very good at illustrating a plot because it is not a language and therefore cannot communicate sensible meaning like language does.


I have to disagree with the essense of this. Language is just a form of communication humans can adpot to tell a story, make a point, show emotion, etc. Music is certainly another, and quite adept and effective at it. Music can do many of those things, and sometimes with more weight and beauty. I'm not intending to imply that music acts as a replacement to common language, but I can't really endorse a statement that claims that music cannot serve as a way to define meaning for things in our lives.


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## ClassicalCumulus (Jul 24, 2013)

In addition to all recommendations; I would highly suggest you try Berlioz's _Symphonie Fantastique_. It's a pleasure to follow the musical story and will help you recognize certain musical gestures. A great _program symphony_.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphonie_fantastique


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

nightscape said:


> I have to disagree with the essense of this. Language is just a form of communication humans can adpot to tell a story, make a point, show emotion, etc. Music is certainly another, and quite adept and effective at it. Music can do many of those things, and sometimes with more weight and beauty. I'm not intending to imply that music acts as a replacement to common language, but I can't really endorse a statement that claims that music cannot serve as a way to define meaning for things in our lives.


Not wishing to speak for Ramako, but I read that quote as "[music] cannot communicate sensible meaning _in the same way that_ language does." (And Ramako did go on to say that "In another sense, however, most classical music does have a plot. In literature a plot is a dynamic succession of emotions, and this is also so in music, more exclusively and, perhaps, much more powerfully; this is to say nothing of the purely musical plots of motivic development etc.")

Music can communicate, but there are certain things it can't communicate on its own. Are there many pieces of programmatic music whose programmes could be clearly identified without the aid of their title? The "meaning" needs to be imposed on the music from outside, which I think is the main point being made in those early responses to the OP.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm sorry to see which direction the topic took.

It is a complicated subject and I am not informed about the popular discussions on the forum or about this sort of music in general.

It is proven that when a culture develops, its language becomes more melodic... yet, language is there to represent a plot... 

The whole thing about arts is either it represents only reality and has no artistic value, or it represents a higher life, an ideal and as such it must have a plot, and idea of something super-human, something where even humans must die confronted with it. (tragedies)

So, how can a feeling or passion be created through music without representing a certain moment of ... death, loss, pain in a tragedy? And why do you think that only enjoyment shall come from music? I've heard that music can make people sick and where is enjoyment now? 

To make noise is close to making sounds without a plot. 

But ok, if people are dancing, they are enjoying it.

Why is there a forum for classical music if this music never has a plot?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Plutarch said:


> I'm sorry to see which direction the topic took.
> 
> It is a complicated subject and I am not informed about the popular discussions on the forum or about this sort of music in general.
> 
> ...


You know... you keep saying that you don't know about this music, but you make bold statements about it...
I think you have a problem with the natural logical order of that process of learning. It is precisely the opposite!. 
Sorry, but you are utterly confused.
All the things you mention, sure, you can have that in music. But definitely is not a necessary condition.
In art appreciation, you don't look for a realization of your ideas in a work of art. You try to understand the ideas proposed by the artist who made it. In that way, you will discover things you never imagined, I assure you. Open mind, they call it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

To go a step further, you don't need to understand any "ideas proposed" to get something meaningful out of music. You just need to listen. If I'm listening to an improvised solo that was created spontaneously, there aren't any ideas attached. It's just pure music. And I can listen to instrumental composition with keen attention, and there are no words or ideas going through my mind.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

starthrower said:


> To go a step further, you don't need to understand any "ideas proposed" to get something meaningful out of music. You just need to listen. If I'm listening to an improvised solo that was created spontaneously, there aren't any ideas attached. It's just pure music. And I can listen to instrumental composition with keen attention, and there are no words or ideas going through my mind.


Well, I wanted to go to that, but let's try this first. Then we can relax what we mean by "ideas proposed".


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Well, we agree that ideas proposed doesn't mean a plot. Unfortunately, Plutarch doesn't get it. In his mind, making musical sounds without a plot is equated with noise. You're right! He's very confused.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Well, we agree that ideas proposed doesn't mean a plot. Unfortunately, Plutarch doesn't get it. In his mind, making musical sounds without a plot is equated with noise. You're right! He's very confused.


Yes, in fact, by ideas proposed I'm also referring to the cases in which the music transmits something to you, even if you can't rationalize it. That's actually one of the most interesting cases, as you noticed!. Bad choice of words from my part.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

So, you think that even aliens could enjoy in your music, without having any representation about what has been said by it?

And if you were a savage who never heard it, would you feel anger when you listen to heavy metal?

But even then, shall we listen to any order of passions more than to an ordered, harmonic, stylish row of feelings?

Because, when styles are mixed up, then it is called decadence. That is the reason why Plato speaks about different styles in music: Laconian, Lydian etc. 

"The old Greeks were going to theatre to listen to beautiful speeches". And if orchestral music descends from choir and drama, how could it be without a plot? Decadent music has no plot and harmony...


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Ramako said:


> Aleazk and pluhagr are correct. The 'problem' is that music isn't very good at illustrating a plot because it is not a language and therefore cannot communicate sensible meaning like language does.
> 
> In another sense, however, most classical music does have a plot. In literature a plot is a dynamic succession of emotions, and this is also so in music, more exclusively and, perhaps, much more powerfully; this is to say nothing of the purely musical plots of motivic development etc.
> 
> In any case, based on your post I suggest Beethoven's _Coriolan_ overture, which is programmatic, his 4th Piano Concerto, in which the second movement has been likened to Orpheus playing to the animals, and his _Eroica_ symphony, which has been given a programme about Prometheus, although it is usually connected to Napoleon. This last especially, however, is a masterpiece of the highest order, and I would recommend listening to the music, rather than trying to fit the music to a story.


Are words not there to cause feelings, just like music? Are you not angry when you read my words? Do you want me to play a music for your further anger?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

After all this time, I still find strange and new forms of trolling. :lol:


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

Plutarch said:


> The whole thing about arts is either it represents only reality and has no artistic value, or it represents a higher life, an ideal and as such it must have a plot


I think you will have quite an uphill battle convincing people that (1) having no artistic value is a necessary condition of representing only reality; (2) that representing reality or representing a higher life are the only two possibilities for art; (3) that having a plot is a necessary condition of representing a higher life. Not many composers thought of music in such black and white terms, so you'll have a hard time finding listeners who do either.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Plutarch said:


> I'm sorry to see which direction the topic took.
> 
> It is a complicated subject and I am not informed about the popular discussions on the forum or about this sort of music in general.
> 
> ...





Plutarch said:


> So, you think that even aliens could enjoy in your music, without having any representation about what has been said by it?
> 
> And if you were a savage who never heard it, would you feel anger when you listen to heavy metal?
> 
> ...





Plutarch said:


> Are words not there to cause feelings, just like music? Are you not angry when you read my words? Do you want me to play a music for your further anger?


I'm not sure what you're getting at in these posts. It seems to me that there are a lot of aspects of your philosophy that are unfamiliar to me, or at least not at all self-evident. Well, actually, almost everything you write is strange to me. In your posts, I often can't even figure out how one statement relates to the statement that follows it, and the series of rhetorical questions in the latter posts don't help me figure out where you're coming from. I personally wouldn't mind reading your ideas about music and discussing them (probably critically) with you - there's almost no way your words will make me angry! - but I need to see them laid out more explicitly or straightforwardly.

Also, I wonder whether you're interested in the recommendations you've received - have you listened to any of them? What did you think/feel about them?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

So, does this mean that:
1. Orchestral music is descended from vocal music and drama, and therefore all orchestral music has a plot, 
or
2. Some orchestral music has a plot, and that which doesn't is "decadent"?

If it's 1, then be ready to explain the plots of randomly chosen pieces of orchestral music.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> So, does this mean that:
> 1. Orchestral music is descended from vocal music and drama, and therefore all orchestral music has a plot,
> or
> 2. Some orchestral music has a plot, and that which doesn't is "decadent"?
> ...


Decent questions.

Like I said, if you take out words from an ancient Greek drama, you will become an instrumental music only. In the process of decadence of the Greek drama it has happened that words have been removed and additional instruments added, and also the genres have been mixed up (like in our modern-day disco music, there are no words or just few).

All those who live for "enjoyment" are decadents and such music does not make them better. So, I guess there is a third, "mighty" sort of music which makes you feel like a slave (which a decadent actually represents).

That is why I was hoping the composer is adapting a sort of story to a story of feelings, like opera seems to be a transition between music and words. 
We can not sue a composer for removing words if he assumes the listener is educated enough to understand the story without words??? If you listen to a composition "Oedypus Rex", you must assume he is somewhere in that music and doing something not so very smart. Unless you awake at the end of it with an applause.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

science said:


> Also, I wonder whether you're interested in the recommendations you've received - have you listened to any of them? What did you think/feel about them?


Not yet, my internet connection was broken and I had no time. And I'm waiting eventually to learn better how to listen. So far I am just like all the rest of you, deaf for the story in it.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

(removed by original poster - me - because it could be perceived as mean-spirited by some. This whole thread makes my head spin. I don't have the least idea what the point of it is, so I reacted sarcastically instead of thoughtfully. my apologies)


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2013)

Let's be plain. Plutarch, despite the admirable attempts of the more patient posters to fathom what you're saying, it seems that only a few fragments of points are coming across. So, if I've got you wrong, my apologies in advance.

First, there's no such thing as decadent music. Second, there's nothing wrong with listening to music for the purpose of enjoyment. Third, there is no evidence that music can be morally improving, although I don't doubt that listening to music can be intellectually stimulating. Last, whether music originates from Greek drama or not, what matters is how it is composed, played and consumed now, in the 21st century.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> Decent questions.
> 
> Like I said, if you take out words from an ancient Greek drama, you will become an instrumental music only. In the process of decadence of the Greek drama it has happened that words have been removed and additional instruments added, and also the genres have been mixed up (like in our modern-day disco music, there are no words or just few).
> 
> ...


If you're taking as your standard an art form that essentially died out several centuries before the appearance of the first Christian music (which is the starting point for "western" "classical" music) then I'm afraid "decadence" as you see it is inevitable and, I imagine most people would agree, something to be welcomed. Dare I say the musical world has moved on rather a lot in the last two millennia and what you consider decadent has been normal for a very long time.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Of course. Decadence is just when people perish in a period of 5 centuries but they don't notice it because _it feels good_.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> Of course. Decadence is just when people perish in a period of 5 centuries but they don't notice it because _it feels good_.


The decline of civilisations can occur by many paths, concurrent or consecutive. Just because you're incapable of enjoying yourself when you listen to music doesn't mean you have to brand the rest of us as decadent.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> Originally Posted by *Plutarch*
> _Of course. Decadence is just when people perish in a period of 5 centuries but they don't notice it because __it feels good__._





Nereffid said:


> The decline of civilisations can occur by many paths, concurrent or consecutive. Just because you're incapable of enjoying yourself when you listen to music doesn't mean you have to brand the rest of us as decadent.


I'm impressed that you were able to extract some sense, Nereffid. Thanks.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> I'm impressed that you were able to extract some sense, Nereffid. Thanks.


Well, I could be completely wrong, of course! :tiphat:


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

I too think people like to do it completely today. 

Nihilism is the denial of every value. When you reach that, then you become an animal, a decadent with the one way ticket.


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## Sudonim (Feb 28, 2013)

This may or may not be relevant, Plutarch - but in what country do you live?


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

You seem very confused, plutarch. You don't need to put morality and values into EVERYTHING to be moral. 

You can dance to an instrumental track with no plot but that does not means you are without moral. It's true that art can display morality, and morality, values, etc, are relevant, but not all art has to.


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

How can I be confused if you can't understand? Of course you must put it in everything, because morality is not something conscious. You put morality in yourself and that morality is observing out of you... "the moral sun is happy when it's sunny outside..."


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> Hello experts of the classical music!
> 
> I want to learn how to listen to the classical music, but I don't have experience yet except my own imagination.
> And I want to find out works which elevate a historical event or a great person or an ancient myth.
> ...


I think you would like Holst's planet suite.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

Plutarch said:


> Hello experts of the classical music!
> 
> I want to learn how to listen to the classical music, but I don't have experience yet except my own imagination.
> And I want to find out works which elevate a historical event or a great person or an ancient myth.
> ...


You should try listening to operas. or music with words.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

niv said:


> You can dance to an instrumental track with no plot but that does not means you are without moral.


dancing is satan's idle jingling!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Plutarch said:


> Not yet, my internet connection was broken and I had no time. And I'm waiting eventually to learn better how to listen. So far I am just like all the rest of you, deaf for the story in it.


Ok, you declined my invitation to explain yourself and you're insulting everyone, so I'm done. Good luck! Maybe you'll turn out to be one of the great moral teachers of our age.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> I too think people like to do it completely today.


You too? Who else then?
Do _what _completely?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> How can I be confused if you can't understand? Of course you must put it in everything, because morality is not something conscious. You put morality in yourself and that morality is observing out of you... "the moral sun is happy when it's sunny outside..."


You put morality in yourself... but where does this morality come from?
Do you enjoy being moral? Are you sure _that's_ moral?
If being moral doesn't bring any pleasure, is that OK? If I watch a tragedy, and it makes me feel sad, but it also improves my morality, won't this bring pleasure, and if so, am I being immoral?
Who is to say that instrumental music that gives pleasure without enlightenment isn't moral? Well, _you_ say that, obviously, and one or two of your ancient Greek chums likewise, but you're just people like everyone else.


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> How can I be confused if you can't understand? Of course you must put it in everything, because morality is not something conscious. You put morality in yourself and that morality is observing out of you... "the moral sun is happy when it's sunny outside..."


Perhaps, if most people here doesn't understand you, it's because you aren't clear at all. At least to me, your example is a precisely... something without morality, at least what I and I guess most people understand about the word morality, and a meaning compatible with your own usage before. A tune can sound "happy" to us without it having any plot or message itself, just the "happy" emotion. A happy emotion by itself does not have a "moral meaning", I think. If you don't agree, then I think a definition of what you understand by morality is needed.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Do *what *completely?


it! *it* usually comes up in conversations about morality.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

deggial said:


> it! *it* usually comes up in conversations about morality.


The three letter word?. I'm scandalized!.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

aleazk said:


> The three letter word?. I'm scandalized!.


quick, listen to some cantatas of your choice.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Plutarch,

From what I've been reading in this thread it seems to me that music can't give you what you want.
Morality like music, is a human construct.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2013)

deggial said:


> it! *it* usually comes up in conversations about morality.


God? I didn't know it could be 'done'. 



aleazk said:


> The three letter word?. I'm scandalized!.


What? The most searched for term on the internet?

But what has MP3 got to do with morality?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I was thinking of *fun* but then you two pointed out sensible alternatives...


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## Plutarch (Jul 21, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> You put morality in yourself... but where does this morality come from?
> Do you enjoy being moral? Are you sure _that's_ moral?
> If being moral doesn't bring any pleasure, is that OK? If I watch a tragedy, and it makes me feel sad, but it also improves my morality, won't this bring pleasure, and if so, am I being immoral?
> Who is to say that instrumental music that gives pleasure without enlightenment isn't moral? Well, _you_ say that, obviously, and one or two of your ancient Greek chums likewise, but you're just people like everyone else.


I think we modern people are moral monkeys and we either bow down to a prehistorical belief, which wasn't ven begotten by our ancestors, or we live like animals and slaves, just for money and pleasure.

We are a lower race, our noses are too short, our heads too round.

We hate more than we love, we attack more than we learn and explore, we are animals...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> I think we modern people are moral monkeys and we either bow down to a prehistorical belief, which wasn't ven begotten by our ancestors, or we live like animals and slaves, just for money and pleasure.
> 
> We are a lower race, our noses are too short, our heads too round.
> 
> We hate more than we love, we attack more than we learn and explore, we are animals...


I am so glad I don't share your miserable world view.

I would call myself an ape rather than a monkey, I don't live for just money and pleasure, I am not of a lower race (lower than what, anyway?), I've quite a big nose, you might call me pointy-headed if you like (but I suppose that would be metaphorical), I most definitely love more than I hate, I have spent vast amounts of my time learning and exploring and almost none of it attacking. But I agree, I am an animal (what else do you want me to be? a plant?).

So enough of this "we" business please!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Hey!, stay away from my cave!. I will have to bite you otherwise!.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Plutarch said:


> I think we modern people are moral monkeys and we either bow down to a prehistorical belief, which wasn't ven begotten by our ancestors, or we live like animals and slaves, just for money and pleasure.
> 
> We are a lower race, our noses are too short, our heads too round.
> 
> We hate more than we love, we attack more than we learn and explore, we are animals...


As far as I'm concerned, the only true thing you said there was, "we are animals". Do _try_ and have a nice day


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## themysticcaveman (Jul 9, 2013)

you need to pick a piece, and listen to that piece daily until you like it


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I think all music is moral.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I suppose this is Bellbottom again.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

themysticcaveman said:


> you need to pick a piece, and listen to that piece daily until you like it


I have seen this suggested before and it is a painful idea.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

nightscape said:


> I have to disagree with the essense of this. Language is just a form of communication humans can adpot to tell a story, make a point, show emotion, etc. Music is certainly another, and quite adept and effective at it. Music can do many of those things, and sometimes with more weight and beauty. I'm not intending to imply that music acts as a replacement to common language, but I can't really endorse a statement that claims that music cannot serve as a way to define *meaning* for things in our lives.


Sorry, I didn't follow the thread through.

What kind of meaning?

When I say tree you think of the tall pointy planty thing with leaves sticking out of it. If I say death you think of someone dying, or dead. You then have an emotional reaction to the _concept_ of death, not the word (you may or may not have an emotional reaction to the word 'tree', but if so I don't think it's one I could predict). Language is a series of _codified_ sounds which in themselves have no power. The power of music is almost entirely derived from qualities inherent to it. You don't need to know the construct of tonality to understand tonal music. You do need to know Ancient Greek to read Homer in the original.

Music cannot communicate any _sensible_ concepts, but it can, perhaps, communicate the emotions which might be associated with certain concepts. The concepts can perhaps be deduced from the emotions, but if this is so it is the reverse process as it is with language.



Plutarch said:


> Are words not there to cause feelings, just like music? Are you not angry when you read my words? Do you want me to play a music for your further anger?


No I'm not angry when I read your words. Should I be? This seems not entirely beside the point.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Ramako said:


> The power of music is almost entirely derived from qualities inherent to it. You don't need to know the construct of tonality to understand tonal music. You do need to know Ancient Greek to read Homer in the original.
> 
> Music cannot communicate any _sensible_ concepts, but it can, perhaps, communicate the emotions which might be associated with certain concepts. The concepts can perhaps be deduced from the emotions, but if this is so it is the reverse process as it is with language.


Just as a rainbow pleases the eye whether or not you know that it is merely light being bent by water droplets.
Or a sunset appears beautiful not because we know that the earth is rotating and causing sunlight to hit the atmosphere from an angle, but because it makes the sky and clouds all red and purple.

The combinations of musical tones can give us a sense of wonder, melancholy, excitement, joy and many other things. Sonata forms for example can play out a drama where themes and motifs are the protagonists but music cannot communicate specific ideas and concepts in the way that verbal language can.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ClassicalCumulus said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more; if anything, it could *help* one appreciate popular music more so than they did, before delving into the world of classical music. You should check out some of these popular musicians' credentials, and I'll guarantee you'll find degrees within college music schools; meaning a lot of them are classically trained. Hell, Jonny Greenwood has performed Riech's _Electric Counterpoint_, and he's in one of the most influential bands of our era. You're blatantly stating classical music is superior to popular music, when in reality, the two forms are becoming more indistinguishable every day.
> 
> I don't mean to sound harsh, but I believe your statement is one of the many reasons why more people don't get into classical music: they believe they must understand everything otherwise they'll feel dumb, and only pretentious intellectuals can truly appreciate it. I'm a 28 year old kid who just started listening to classical music six years ago, and never once did I ever feel the need to be "snarky" about it. If anything, I was desperately trying to get my friends to listen to it because I straight up love it so much!


You are not a kid at 28 for goodness sake.


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## Wood (Feb 21, 2013)

Plutarch said:


> We are a lower race, our noses are too short, our heads too round.
> 
> we are animals...


My turn.

Are we elephants?


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