# Gilbert and Sullivan



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Do you have a favorite G&S opera? Right now, I am on a Patience kick.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

True opera aficionados frown on such stuff. I, on the other hand, would happily look forward to seeing one. Unfortunately, I haven't yet had the chance.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Tru opera afficionados often have their heads in uncomfortably tight, dark and smelly places. As a result, they miss out on some great music and witty dialogue and an all round good time. Don't let them deter you.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)




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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

#I think it is the witty dialogue that puts me off, nothing ages quite as quickly as humour. They are undeniably well written but I prefer my opera tragic usually, even better if there is TB. I was thinking of getting the recent Ivanhoe recording on chandos, have you heard it, is it any good?


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I had not got round to seeing any G&S until a few days ago. There was a broadcast on Sky Arts of Pirates of Penzance by an Australian company. It is well accepted that the singing and music isn't up to scratch in that version - is is more panto and slapstick than anything. Fortunately, however, I do have a very simple sense of humour at times and the silliness actually makes you forget the ridiculous plot of the operetta (no worse than many well-known operas). I still had some of the tunes in my head the next day, so there is obviously something about it. IMO, the production was very much in the spirit of comic opera.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

quack;350701I prefer my opera tragic usually said:


> I KNOW. Wasn't TB great? There's really no modern substitute, unfortunately... really the perfect disease, for opera lovers.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> I KNOW. *Wasn't *TB great? There's really no modern substitute, unfortunately... really the perfect disease, for opera lovers.


Don't worry, Greg, TB is alive and well and becoming drug resistant. Who knows, it might get back into the repertoire but I don't think it's as glamorous as people think.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I have only seen two, Ruddigore and Iolanthe. Iolanthe, was by far the superior piece musically. It has a very charming overture. Ruddigore is more or less a play with music.


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## Dins (Jun 21, 2011)

I think that I agree with Tom Lehrer in this case.

"_To end on a happy note one can always count on Gilbert and Sullivan for a rousing finale full of words and music and signifying nothing._"


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Don't worry, Greg, TB is alive and well and becoming drug resistant. Who knows, it might get back into the repertoire but I don't think it's as glamorous as people think.


Ah, good one.


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## cjvinthechair (Aug 6, 2012)

Huge respect for these works, the West End musicals of their day. So sorry Sullivan got buttonholed as a 'light' composer only; wrote some beautiful 'serious' music, maybe the 'Festival Te Deum' best of all.
Credit G&S with kick-starting my love of a well-turned tune (& lyric) so won't hear anything against them !


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

I love Gilbert & Sullivan. I also love Sullivan's Ivanhoe. It is definitely my favorite British opera.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

quack said:


> #I think it is the witty dialogue that puts me off, nothing ages quite as quickly as humour. They are undeniably well written but I prefer my opera tragic usually, even better if there is TB. I was thinking of getting the recent Ivanhoe recording on chandos, have you heard it, is it any good?


I think the dialogue is really funny.
Humour gets old but here it is still fun.

My favourite Gilbert and Sullivan operetta is The Mikado and after that The Yeomen of the Guard.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I think the dialogue is really funny.
> Humour gets old but here it is still fun.
> 
> My favourite Gilbert and Sullivan operetta is The Mikado and after that The Yeomen of the Guard.


Yeomen is probably my favorite. Beautiful music, at points, in that one, too.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Mikado. Always the Mikado since I was a little kid.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

If I had to make an objective choice, I'd say _The Mikado _ was best. The plot is tightly constructed, the dialogue and lyrics are brilliant, and the music is Sullivan at his best.

My favorite, though, is probably _The Grand Duke_. Unfairly maligned, even by its creators. Who can resist an operetta with a statutory duel whereby the loser is declared legally dead; a sausage roll aria; a roulette aria; and a patter song in Greek?

Really, though, the run from _Pirates_ through _Mikado_ is strong. _Princess Ida_ has some of the best numbers in G&S: King Gama's two songs; his hulking sons' trios; the "Gently, gently" trio; "A lady fair of lineage high"; the quartet "The world is but a broken toy"; and a couple of fine end of act finales.

Even the weakest G&S have something good; _The Sorcerer_, for example, has a terrific Act I finale and a good quartet in Act II; _Ruddigore_ has the patter trio and the Ghosts' High Noon; and _Utopia, Ltd._ has the minstrel septet.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> If I had to make an objective choice, I'd say The Mikado was best. The plot is tightly constructed, the dialogue and lyrics are brilliant, and the music is Sullivan at his best.


It's brilliant, still studying the score for my mothers singing choir.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Patience is not mentioned above but gets an outing around the UK this spring.

http://englishtouringopera.org.uk/productions/patience

English Touring Opera have very high standards and I wil be at the second night.

Havn't been to the ENO Pirates as I think they suffer more than most from large theatres and clumsy amplification. But may relent on that...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Well, I am several years into my opera obsession and have hundreds of opera on CD and DVD, yet no G&S but for a highlights disk I just picked up and that led me to think the Mikado might work out for me. The last few posts seem to support that.

Ha, but perhaps I do have something like G&S. Get a load of this sung-in-English Martha (Flotow). It really has a G&S flare to it, eh?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

guythegreg said:


> True opera aficionados frown on such stuff. .


Don't they.

I was even explained to that G&S isn't opera.

I love Pirates the best, though Mikado is great too.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I claim that most of G&S is as much of an opera as many by Rossini ... and _Yeoman of the Guard_, even more so.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I see a couple of ladies in Mikado with mezzo and/or contalto. What G&S opera/operetta has the most deeper-voiced ladies? Or the most presence of deeper-voiced ladies. I don't dislike sopranos but I think they could be a bit grating in something like G&S.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I see a couple of ladies in Mikado with mezzo and/or contalto. What G&S opera/operetta has the most deeper-voiced ladies? Or the most presence of deeper-voiced ladies. I don't dislike sopranos but I think they could be a bit grating in something like G&S.


I would have to look carefully but as the G&S operas were written for the D'Oyly Carte company which had a fixed roster of singers, there probably isn't much difference. Certainly most have at least one deep mezzo/contralto role.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​Perhaps on Santa list this year?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

^ Expensive but 25 CDs. I think I might do better to go with a single opera for starters. Also there is this smaller 10-CD set, but I am not sure with G&S how to know if a disk is a whole operetta or highlights.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> ^ Expensive but 25 CDs. I think I might do better to go with a single opera for starters. Also there is this smaller 10-CD set, but I am not sure with G&S how to know if a disk is a whole operetta or highlights.


Seeing this is a 10 CD set and 10 names on the cover my guess, highlights.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Seeing this is a 10 CD set and 10 names on the cover my guess, highlights.


That, we will avoid like the plague!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> *True opera aficionados frown on such stuff. * I, on the other hand, would happily look forward to seeing one. Unfortunately, I haven't yet had the chance.


Of course they do as they usual have no sense of humour. G&S is great fun. I have had experience of production and everyone had a right good time with quite a few being introduced to music and dance for the first time. It's not great music but certainly great fun to do. An elderly couple came along to see it who said they went to every G&S production they could find locally!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> I claim that most of G&S is as much of an opera as many by Rossini ... and _Yeoman of the Guard_, even more so.


No. There is no comparison in terms of the singing required. The thing about G&S is a modest amateur company or even a school can put on a respectable performance. You just can't put on a Rossini opera without specialists coloratura singers.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Of course they do as they usual have no sense of humour. G&S is great fun. I have had experience of production and everyone had a right good time with quite a few being introduced to music and dance for the first time. It's not great music but certainly great fun to do. An elderly couple came along to see it who said they went to every G&S production they could find locally!


The choir my mother is singing / conducting perform them regularly in homes for the elderly, they have lots of fun.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

I listened to them in my youth and was even the Captain of the Pinafore at age 12. Picking up (dangerously) from another thread, that is the perfect opportunity to use Tidal. I can check out my favorites again, although I don't think I need to own them. I listened to an album of overtures not so long ago.

There's one exception - I own the cast album for this production, which I saw presented by the New York Shakespeare Festival in Central Park in 1980.






That's Kevin Kline as the Pirate King. Linda Ronstadt played Mabel. The re-orchestrations were by William Elliot, and I love them. Check out Modern Major General (also on YouTube).

There's a film version of it with most of the same cast (adding Angela Lansbury as Ruth), but somehow it misses the mark.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am going to continue with the Sullivanish sounding Martha set that I posted in a video clip above in post #20. Arthur Berger wrote in The New York Sun, ''Flotow sounded almost like Sullivan in this version." I have always taken this Marth in small doses, but now that I have an interest (not necessarily a desire for) G&S, this Martha is suddenly far more interesting.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> The choir my mother is singing / conducting perform them regularly in homes for the elderly, *they have lots of fun*.


So do these


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

DavidA said:


> So do these


If you're going to rewrite Gilbert's lyrics you might as well add an educational component and then use Harry Potter to teach it:


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## Geoff48 (Aug 15, 2020)

SixFootScowl said:


> That, we will avoid like the plague!


This is the complete first post war Decca recordings by the D'oyly Carte with such singers as Martyn Green, Darrell Fancourt, Ella Halman and Isadore Godfrey There are eight complete operas(excluding dialogue) inafore, Pirates of Penzance, Patience, iolanthe, mikado, Ruddigore, Yeomen and Gondoliers as well as Trial by Jury together with the Mackerras first recording of Pineapple Poll. The recordings are in mono but are perfectly listenable and the performances are probably the best ever recorded. I paid about £10 for a second hand copy on Amazon and consider it a bargain. To be fair the absence of dialogue is an advantage as Gilbert's words have worn less well than Sullivan's music.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

*I've done more G&S than you!*



jegreenwood said:


> I listened to them in my youth and was even the Captain of the Pinafore at age 12. Picking up (dangerously) from another thread, that is the perfect opportunity to use Tidal. I can check out my favorites again, although I don't think I need to own them. I listened to an album of overtures not so long ago.
> 
> There's one exception - I own the cast album for this production, which I saw presented by the New York Shakespeare Festival in Central Park in 1980.
> 
> ...


I suppose I should weigh in here, as the Music Director of the *Ventura County Gilbert & Sullivan Repertoire Co*. for the last 15 years. We've presented two productions every year (although our premiere show was "jukebox" show called *Sullivan & Gilbert*, and one time we presented two of the one-acts).

Prior to that I've been involved with several other productions at several other theatres, also having directed productions of *HMS Pinafore* and *Ruddigore*. Also played the parts of _*The Mikado*_ and *Ralph Rackstraw*.

We've now presented ALL of the G&S operettas at least once, and some have had their 3rd go round.

So I'm VERY familiar with everything G&S. VERY.

If I had to call ONE of their collaborations the "best", it would have to be *Pirates*. It just hits the mark continuously throughout the production. I love the Kline versions (both stage and film).

My favorite, music-wise, is still *Ruddigore* . . . a mostly pastoral 1st act and a mostly gothic 2nd act. I think it would make the translation to the screen (what with the CGI technology available these days) quite well.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I have two films I love: *The Pirates of Penzance*, mentioned above, and *Topsy-Turvy*, about the composition and first performance of *The Mikado*.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Having caught the end of act 1 and all of act 2 yesterday on the the rebroadcast I have just recorded the 2012 BBC Proms performance of Yeoman of the Guard. Its not replacing my 1950 Yeoman recording but its nice to have the dialogue.

For me Gilbert's words are the best part!


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

MAS said:


> I have two films I love: *The Pirates of Penzance*, mentioned above, and *Topsy-Turvy*, about the composition and first performance of *The Mikado*.


*Topsy-Turvy* was an excellent film. It really conveyed the world of G&S well. Jim Broadbent was efficiently perfect.

Speaking of *The Mikado*, I'm also a fan of *Hot Mikado*, where Sullivan's original music is reorchestrated using 1940s popular musical harmonies and arrangements and a wide range of styles, including jazz, hot gospel, blues, rock, Cab Calloway swing, and torch songs.


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## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

The Pirates of Penzance is my favourite.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> True opera aficionados frown on such stuff. I, on the other hand, would happily look forward to seeing one. Unfortunately, I haven't yet had the chance.


True opera aficionados are boring. They listen to the same **** over and over and over and rarely explore rarer works and therefore miss out.

Look at the what are you listening to thread. BORING. Tristan over and over, Callas (who I love) over and over, Puccini, Verdi, Wagner, Mozart, over and over over and over, little else.

I've been on a big G&S kick lately. Favorites are definitely _Yeomen_ #1, _Pinafore_ and _Mikado_.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

gellio said:


> True opera aficionados are boring. They listen to the same **** over and over and over and rarely explore rarer works and therefore miss out.
> 
> Look at the what are you listening to thread. BORING. Tristan over and over, Callas (who I love) over and over, Puccini, Verdi, Wagner, Mozart, over and over over and over, little else.
> 
> I've been on a big G&S kick lately. Favorites are definitely _Yeomen_ #1, _Pinafore_ and _Mikado_.


Well, if you're referring to me, I just happen to be having a concentrated Bellini listening spree, and Callas is the protagonist of the majority of my Bellini collection. Hwever, if you go just a little further back, you would find I had been listening to Enesco's *Oedipe*, Chausson's *Le Roi Arthus*, Fauré's *Pénélope* and Délibes' *Lakmé*, none of them what you'd call regular fare.

That said, it's a sorry day when the operas of Wagner, Verdi, Puccini and Mozart are deemed boring.


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## Birmanbass (Jun 1, 2021)

gellio said:


> True opera aficionados are boring. They listen to the same **** over and over and over and rarely explore rarer works and therefore miss out.
> 
> Look at the what are you listening to thread. BORING. Tristan over and over, Callas (who I love) over and over, Puccini, Verdi, Wagner, Mozart, over and over over and over, little else.
> 
> I've been on a big G&S kick lately. Favorites are definitely _Yeomen_ #1, _Pinafore_ and _Mikado_.


Ha ha..i don't know whether to kiss you or kick you  I love G&S for its cleverness, entertainment, musicality and verbal dexterity..its fun and is most of all, great entertainment for the whole family. Opera on the other hand, may require some subtlety in comprehension and the ability to "buy in" to where the composer is taking you. To an individual that looks for fast and easy satisfaction, some operas may assuredly seem boring. Having myself once thought of Wagner as being incomprehensible and boring, I understand how this viewpoint could arise. However, i found that when I relaxed and went along with the music and stopped demanding a resolution to suit me, then the dynamic changed. Also i discovered the more i listened/watched "the difficult ones" the more they started to make sense and they changed from being boring to not only incredibly complex but satisfying in a much more comprehensive and fulfilling manner. Hope you can revisit the "boring" stuff with more time and an open heart. If you want a really great version of the Mikado try this from the English National Opera


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## peeknocker (Feb 14, 2012)

gellio said:


> True opera aficionados are boring. They listen to the same **** over and over and over and rarely explore rarer works and therefore miss out.


There are certainly people like that, but I wouldn't necessarily refer to them as aficionados. Quite the opposite, actually.

For those interested, here is the complete 1966 series of BBC broadcasts of Gilbert and Sullivan:
https://www.talkclassical.com/53537-opera-english-radio-broadcasts-8.html#post2087493


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