# Give us your best pick for The Funeral Dirge of The Classical tradition.



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I got this idea while surfing YT for new modern composers,,Saw Arvo Part's Dirge for Benjamin Britten's funeral. 
Its OK, I mean its a respectful work for a close friend, so its appropriate.

I then noticed on the side recommends, Pettersson's 8th. I thought, why not, ,,xclick,,,1st thing, the YT vid is 8 years old, and only 22K hits. Next immediate thought was

as I click it on, had it playing in the mid section , and the thought occurred. *8 yrs, 22K hits, ,,,Part's Dirge,,,hummm, death, yes,,,that iits,,,* headed back here for this topic...
Now that the Classical tradition has seen its birth, middle age, and we the living in 2019, have witnessed the very acutal death process, with our own ears,,which the ancients of old, had no idea where the musical tradition would go . 
As we can see, there are no more Bach/Mozart/Beethoven's on the world stage at the moment,,,nor in the near future.

What we see ,,,mushrooming ~~~up , are all post mods/aka *contemporary,,,composers…*. 
Ok Got it, Contemporary,,,composers, The add on, composers makes it official,, the trad is still alive,,,or so they would have us believe with full confidence...
So which work would you decide on to be performed at 
the Funeral Of Classical Music Tradition..
I have mine solidly decided, as the YT vid when I clicked, had the mid section playing and I thought,,,no better dirge music 
The death Of The CM Tradition


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The Pettersson 8th has 22,000 views. That’s hardly meaningless. And it has 139 thumbs up to two thumbs down. So those who heard it liked it. Only you think that such figures represent the death of classical music. The music is online for anyone to hear and they don’t have to choose one composer over another. The death of classical music has been greatly exaggerated. But if it dies, it deserves to die because something else will come along to replace it as necessary. People will always need music that brings solace and healing, that reflects their better nature and develops their courage and sensitivity. No funeral dirges for me or the music tonight. Better to find beauty in life now because a lifetime is not enough.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If the "classical music tradition" is dead, it died in stages, not at some point in the recent past. The first stage may have been the abandonment of the tonal center as an aural reference point for the construction of a musical syntax. The next stage may have been the abandonment of attempts to preserve elements of tonally-generated form despite the absence of the reference point. The third stage may have been the abandonment of precisely pitched sounds, or discrete tones, as the fundamental elements of music.

If we want to call the end products of this process something other than classical music, it's our prerogative. But the line we choose to draw is arbitrary within a span of time lasting over a century. Some people would even draw it at Beethoven.

I think there are enough funeral marches already.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Ok that's a consideration to ponder over,,,22K in 8 yrs. 
I guess 5 yrs ago, maybe that vid had only 2K or 3K,,,so perhaps you see momentum, notoriety in growth. 
I can see that as a possibility. 

Yet I also hold this odd idea that the CM tradition has been in a sort of,,*decline* if you will. As you may have guessed by now, I am not so mucha proponent of The New Music*, that is post-modern/contemporary,,which I hold the opinion, it offers less than what we have seen in the past 300 years of composition. Compareble to the great masters, that is, and not to the mid/lower tier of composers. 


I am a Modernist, and so I hear music through a modernist approach,, my eras are tempered with the masters of the Modern Musical era..


I am all for freedom of accepting new music into the classical arts, provided some qualifications are met. 
I just do not see this level of craftmanship be maintained by the New Artists. 
They have fallen away from previous masters forms /ideas. 


Some essential quality that makes music part of the Classical Musical tradition. Now sure I lack all musical training, EDU, so that could disqualify my opinions. 
Yet I make up forb this with my passion for all things of excellence in this great art form. 
This alone grants me some privilege to at least speak my mind on this matter.
The matter being: The falling Away of the Great Classical tradition. Subtitled
Was The passing of Elliott carter and Henze in 2012, a portentous event in classical music, which the community has overlooked due to ,,,whatever reasons, ,,,some of which I have an inkling to guess. 

Be that as it may. Is this creative process alive and well, or is it now passed away with the masterpieces of Elliott carter and Henze in 2012.?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ...I think there are enough funeral marches already.


Given population trends, there are far more people dying today than in Beethoven's time. Funeral marches are needed more than ever! Mahler would, I think, agree.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> If the "classical music tradition" is dead, it died in stages, not at some point in the recent past. The first stage may have been the abandonment of the tonal center as an aural reference point for the construction of a musical syntax. The next stage may have been the abandonment of attempts to preserve elements of tonally-generated form despite the absence of the reference point. The third stage may have been the abandonment of precisely pitched sounds, or discrete tones, as the fundamental elements of music.
> 
> If we want to call the end products of this process something other than classical music, it's our prerogative. But the line we choose to draw is arbitrary within a span of time lasting over a century. Some people would even draw it at Beethoven.
> 
> I think there are enough funeral marches already.


good post, so yes, there have been several events within the tradition, where a old form passed away,,,a new style was being given birth. 
Yes I can see this stage process. 
George Harrison has a song, All Things Must Pass. I think it is ancient hindu idea. Chinese ancients also have a similar idea.

has something passed in the year 2012. Note both genius passed within 1 week late 2012. 
I am not into astrology, but it may mean some-THING...Now what?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Given population trends, there are far more people dying today than in Beethoven's time. Funeral marches are needed more than ever! Mahler would, I think, agree.


There was a recent sit in protest in London , some weeks ago, a group with this belief of a mass population starvation event occurring within our lifetime.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Which composers living /working today, whose scores will match/equal/surpass Elliott Carter and Hans Henze?


I should add that I am not looking for controversy here,,,just a sort of probing, a questioning of the extential reality we find ourselves living in toady, 2019. 
And what possibilities , if any are there for the life of this great art.

Thoughts and ideas which have induced me cry and preach for the need to draw parameters , standards, qualities needed to establish a composer into the halls of classical music traditions.

Just as the old great Russian musical institutions could only accept the most stringently qualified applicants. In order to maintain a certain standard of excellence. 
Could the same recognitions be considered for todays composers?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

paulbest said:


> Which composers living /working today, whose scores will match/equal/surpass Elliott Carter and Hans Henze?


The whole premise of this thread is beyond ridiculous, but I'm sure if no-one answers this, you will be shouting that it is now clear that everyone agrees that no living composer matches the two you (and you alone) singled out as the best.

Without really trying, more than a dozen come to mind whose work I prefer over Carter and Henze (two composers I have no problem with, in fact I have many CDs by them).

Adams (both of them), Aho, Beamish, Bryars, Chin, Corigliano, Gubaidulina, Nørgård, Part, Reich, Saariaho, Sallinen, Sheng, Vasks.

I'm sure that list would be much longer if I put more effort in it.


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## Schoenberg (Oct 15, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> If the "classical music tradition" is dead, it died in stages, not at some point in the recent past. The first stage may have been the abandonment of the tonal center as an aural reference point for the construction of a musical syntax. The next stage may have been the abandonment of attempts to preserve elements of tonally-generated form despite the absence of the reference point. The third stage may have been the abandonment of precisely pitched sounds, or discrete tones, as the fundamental elements of music.


I think what you have mentioned is the complete opposite of the "death" of the "classical music tradition," rather it was the mere logical continuation of it. Even relatively early in this tradition with Beethoven tonality became less strict, and all the composers and works that became less constrained by tonality built upon each other. I believe the "death" of the "classical music tradition" to be the complete opposite of this phenomenon, rather I consider the death of this tradition to be the reversal of this trend, the dying out of atonal music and the return of tonality as the default mode of composition.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

The return of tonalisty
This is indeed good news. I mean we all love the 3 great 2nd Viennese masters, what they have given us is always fresh and inviting. 
After these 3 masters, many others learned and gave us their gems, Hatrtman, Karl, and others, varese holds some interest,,,except when he uses that dang police siren,,,or is it a ambulance siren, tooting a dirge or a intuition for the decline of music that would follow his works?

I can not wait to hear some of these New Tonal masters. 

I would say the last great tonality master true classical composer would be Tubin. Wrting music in the near styles of RVW and Sibelius,,this is the late 1960's!!! UNREAL. Who would have imagined a composer writing in the styles of RVW/Sibelius,,and here's the kicker,,,with STUNNING SUCCESS. 
hahaha. He is from the very north country, like Estonia,,,I guess somewhere way back in the mountains,,, where he felt untouched by the *post modern world* of Stockhausen and Boulez,,,he no doubt never heard their music,,,thankfully for us, his music is not tarnished by late mod ideas,,,as now we have Sibelius cast in new forms, with RVW well represented in his music. 
Double deal,all packaged in new tonalities , gleaming with brilliance. 
This is at least opening to his 8th symphony, I can not say more, as the cds have not arrived as yet. 


But sadly, he is not composing today, what other composers living today are giving us New Modern Tonalities, so we can all forget this dirge stuff , and go home..?
Well? 

names please......


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Of course, the great dirge for the end of classical music would end up showing that classical music is not dead.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Correct It is not dead, But it is ended 
unless you wish to continue sleeping.
Unless you want to accept Post Mod as classical music, Then you are right, I am mistaken. 
I do not accept.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

amazingly I have no support, 
hum, now is not that odd...strange, no one else hears what I hear,,,odd, very strange,,,unless they wish to hide the secret,,,no one cares to look at reality, at truth....yep that's post mod man for ya. loves to reside in his cave dwellings. 
Socrates was right after all....man and his cave..... I guess I will be the only one to lay flowers on the grave....


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> Correct It is not dead, But it is ended
> unless you wish to continue sleeping.
> Unless you want to accept Post Mod as classical music, Then you are right, I am mistaken.
> I do not accept.


Actually, discovering the music you call postmodern relatively late in my time as a classical buff was one of the more life affirming of my experiences with music over the last ten years. Far from putting me to sleep, it woke me up and showed me that there are new (oh so new) ways to go with classical music. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, we all have different tastes. And, anyway, the more recent and inventive classical music is not easy to get under the skin of. You may get there some day.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> amazingly I have no support,
> hum, now is not that odd...strange, no one else hears what I hear,,,odd, very strange,,,unless they wish to hide the secret,,,no one cares to look at reality, at truth....yep that's post mod man for ya. loves to reside in his cave dwellings.
> Socrates was right after all....man and his cave..... I guess I will be the only one to lay flowers on the grave....


It is strange and amazing, I agree, there are many here who have little time or love for contemporary music. It could be that your earlier hostility to much of the Classical and Romantic repertoire has alienated them. There are probably very few who share your little niche without overflowing into the music that came before or after (or both) it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> It is strange and amazing, I agree, there are many here who have little time or love for contemporary music. It could be that your earlier hostility to much of the Classical and Romantic repertoire has alienated them. There are probably very few who share your little niche without overflowing into the music that came before or after (or both) it.


Yes agree, I would guess that 70%+ of the TC members have little /nothing to do with late modern music. well that might be a bit high,,say 60%,,,which have no interest whatsoever post Stravinsky. Stravinsky is the farthest reaches of their *modernism style* I never heard Stravinsky as *modern* for some reason his music bores me.

Schoenberg is yet another the romantic crowd might doddle with, experiment with,,,but no real love for that *strange atonal stuff*.

They seem oblivious to the fact that perhaps CM has reached its zenith, its outer limits,,,so long as Beethoven and Mahler in on the cd player, the world is a fine place.


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## ECraigR (Jun 25, 2019)

paulbest said:


> amazingly I have no support,
> hum, now is not that odd...strange, no one else hears what I hear,,,odd, very strange,,,unless they wish to hide the secret,,,no one cares to look at reality, at truth....yep that's post mod man for ya. loves to reside in his cave dwellings.
> Socrates was right after all....man and his cave..... I guess I will be the only one to lay flowers on the grave....


We all hear different things. Philosophers have been attempting to establish objective grounds for taste for centuries and haven't succeeded. 
Also, some people may find this thread so similar to your previous three that they've already made themselves known on it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Schoenberg said:


> I think what you have mentioned is the complete opposite of the "death" of the "classical music tradition," rather it was the mere logical continuation of it. Even relatively early in this tradition with Beethoven tonality became less strict, and all the composers and works that became less constrained by tonality built upon each other. I believe the "death" of the "classical music tradition" to be the complete opposite of this phenomenon, rather I consider the death of this tradition to be the reversal of this trend, the dying out of atonal music and the return of tonality as the default mode of composition.


You're arguing the orthodox Schoenbergian perspective which sees the dissolution of tonality as a development of tonality. I find that not merely a paradox but a self-contradiction. Harmonic relations within a tonal context can be more or less complex, and complexification may lead to tonal ambiguity. But tonal ambiguity still relies on the assumption, in the listener, of a tonality to be rendered uncertain. Nontonal music defies tonal expectation and works to make it irrelevant, as Schoenberg understood when he was careful to avoid procedures which might allow the sense of tonal centricity to arise.

The elimination of the tonal center and the relationships which evolved around it had huge implications for the elements of music other than harmony. Traditional forms which arose out of tonal relationships became essentially meaningless, despite Schoenberg's attempt, through serialism, to save them. Boulez understood this.

Ultimately it's a matter of preference whether we want to call the heritage of the atonal revolution a part of "tradition." I see it as the most radical single change Western music has undergone, and the one that did the most to make "classical" music unrecognizable and unpalatable to listeners at large. As for the return of the humble tonal center - well, it never went away, did it? Only cloistered academics could imagine that it did (or should). Composers simply realized that the consequences of its abandonment had ended in a cul-de-sac.

Personally, I don't find most of the tonal music of the reaction to be all that interesting, so I'm not speaking as one who has a dog in the fight. I've felt for a long time that "classical" music is spinning its wheels, and I'm too old to care. The Great Tradition is indeed over, and we're in the age of globalism, eclecticism, post-post-modernism, planetary crisis, and whatever you please. If another "great tradition" is going to arise from it all, I won't be here to see it. Maybe nobody will.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Nice well presented post, A bit out my range, but the most parts I catch the meanings.


You have rasied a lot of excellent points,,,,you ill some good responses due up , and those will be delightful to floow as well.
I like your agreement with my findings,, 
The Great Classical tradition is indeed, finis. Kaput. Done with...I did find it quite astrological unique that 2 of the greatest classical composers mid/late 20TH C, passed away, within ONE WEEK of each other in 2012. 
Like a comet in the sky, portending many things to come.


I do not believe there will be any new rebirth of the classical tradition, Not at all. Not pessimistic , just realistic. Look at the ending of the tradition, see how it went down?


I forsee a reawakening,, a new discovery of who is who in the musical tradition,,,that is to say, Your grandfathers opinion's won't mean much at all. 
The youths of tomorrow will decide for themselves, who is who, which music carries the finest spiritual soulful meanings. 


Tradition will play no part. Thank goodness , propaganda and pumping will not affect the vote. 

It will be based on authenticated masterpieces, Works which the generations of today have overlooked, is not that the way it has always been? The majority are always the last to make the realization.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

So the dissolution of classical music hinges on tonality? That assumes that the "system" was perfect, and was designed to reinforce tonality, and it never was, because of the C major scale and the note "F".

Classical music destroyed itself, by having 12 notes based on Pythagoran principles of projected fifths, then deviating from that by projecting fifths at C: C-G-D-A-A-B-F instead of F-C-G-D-A-E-B. The built-in instability which resulted led to Wagner's "apotheosis" of tonality, which was nothing more than a glitch-fest of tritones and half-diminished sevenths and other "vagrant" harmony. Wagner was the smoke trails of a fireworks show that was already over.

The lesson is: if you want a drone, then drone. If you play near the railroad tracks of tritones, you will come to a bad end. "And that was the end of Dandy Jim." R.I.P. tonality.

Now, you have two choices: drone in a loincloth, or move forward into a more cognitivelt based music. And most of us are too old to be wearing loin cloths.


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