# Don Giovanni and Op. 131 Quartet



## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

I respect the musical understanding of this forum. I believe the highest works are Mozart's Don Giovanni and Beethoven's 14th Quartet (Op. 131). My assumption is all works of art may be compared, one greater the other lesser.

Among these two which is greater?

I listen to Don Giovanni daily, but find the Op. 131 quartet to somehow be impossibly higher than even this greatest Mozart opera, and even than the Mass in B minor, or the Art of Fugue. For me, the Op. 131 stands highest in human understanding.


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## dismrwonderful (May 5, 2013)

One can compare apples and oranges and argue which one has the greater appeal. The orange has the greater appeal, but the apple appeals to our core values. The real argument is which one carries the most juice.

Dan


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

Thank you for your reply. You are correct in stating the real argument is which one carries the most juice (the most ideas).

I hold it is necessary in art, as in science, to understand which are the deepest discoveries. No one would dispute Einstein's theory of gravitation is deeper than Newton's, or that Fisher's neo-Darwinian synthesis furthers extends Darwin's ideas -- and most would agree that this clarification of the deepest scientific discoveries is absolutely central to a scientific education. 

In the comparison of music we look for two aspects: 1) whether the work is unified and stems from a whole vision 2) if so, how great is the vision? 

The three most visionary works to me are Op. 131, Don Giovanni, Mass in B minor. This is disputable, but there is enough consensus on these works that this selection is not too controversial. 

My selection of Op. 131 as the heights comes from the new method of part-writing and the resultant new ideas in harmony in this piece ... I feel there is some discovery here, similar to the discovery of perspective in painting (exemplified by Raphael), or the discovery of character in literature (exemplified by Shakespeare).

Don Giovanni is perfect, the Mass in B Minor is God-like, but the Op. 131 is nature itself.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I’ve always had a personal preference for op. 132, but the op, 131 surely achieves something transcendent. 

With that said, I think the connection with Don Giovanni is empty. Both works are nonpareil masterpieces of their respective genres. If they are your two favorite pieces, great; proclaim it from the rooftops. However, there need not be any debate.


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

If we phrase the question as "in the long-run (say 2000 years) which of Don Giovanni or Op. 131 will have more educational value to a genius student of Music" then I think it's not so clear that the question is useless to debate. From this long-run perspective we can more easily talk about objective quality.

As an example, all of us would agree that every philosopher must read Plato and Aristotle, however in the long-run of which author we would hope most to survive I think most would agree that Plato is the more encompassing and deeper thinker. Similarly, Cervantes and Shakespeare are both necessary for any writer, but we would agree that Shakespeare is the more encompassing and deeper thinker. 

For such reasons I think the question of Don Giovanni vs. Op. 131 is not useless or trivial, instead I think if one truly wants to understand this most mysterious notion of 'artistic quality', then there is no more important question. 

I am a mathematician by profession, and in the continued study of Newton, Gauss, Archimedes, Grothendieck we find again and again the best way to understand the discipline is through the question 'why exactly does Gauss stand above?'


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Beethoven's great "Thanksgiving" quartet expresses world weariness and other-worldliness.

However, Don Giovanni is a morality play about the greatest issues in life: integriity morality, mortality, sex, love, betrayal, heaven and hell, right and wrong, comeuppance, karma, whatever else you want to say. 

The quartet goes on, what?, 40 minutes? The opera lasts 3 hours.

The quartet involves 4 players. The opera has a full orchestra, a lot of bit players, a chorus, and 4 stars -- and more solo singers that aren't stars.

I'd say the comparison between the two pieces, setting aside personal judgment, clearly shows one more fully completed as a work of art than the other.


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

larold said:


> Beethoven's great "Thanksgiving" quartet expresses world weariness and other-worldliness.
> 
> However, Don Giovanni is a morality play about the greatest issues in life: integriity morality, mortality, sex, love, betrayal, heaven and hell, right and wrong, comeuppance, karma, whatever else you want to say.
> 
> ...


My position holds surely that the Op. 131 in C#minor (not the Op.132 'Thanksgiving' you refer to) is also an ethical treatise.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2019)

I believe you are comparing one of the greatest operas of all time with one of the greatest string quartets of all time; first of all the tools are not the same; second: the period is not the same; third; the intention of the composer is not the same; fourth; there is no connection whatsoever between the two pieces; so your comparison does not make sense


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

marc bollansee said:


> I believe you are comparing one of the greatest operas of all time with one of the greatest string quartets of all time; first of all the tools are not the same; second: the period is not the same; third; the intention of the composer is not the same; fourth; there is no connection whatsoever between the two pieces; so your comparison does not make sense


The shared tools are fundamentally harmony, melody, counterpoint. The period is shared as post-Bach. The intention is shared as beauty, love, peace. The connection is shared as Music. The comparison is certainly possible, and certainly fundamental to the study of 'artistic quality'.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_My position holds surely that the Op. 131 in C#minor (not the Op.132 'Thanksgiving' you refer to) is also an ethical treatise. _

I agree. However, Don Giovanni expresses far more in both natural and supernatural humanity. The Don ends up being cast into Hell by a statue come back to life that represents the father of a girl who died due to the Don's treachery. And that's just one scene near the end. I can't discern anything like that in any string quartet, however magnificent.

I could see a comparison between a Beethoven string quartet and his song cycle An die Ferne geliebte insofar as the cycle is four songs in one and the quartet four movements. But not to his Missa Solemnis or Fidelio. Could you?


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

The Op. 131 is far far greater than the Missa Solemnis and Fidelio. In Beethoven's works there is nothing to compare with the Op. 131. Some artists have two or more greatest works, works which are so incredible as to be difficult to compare -- for example, Homer with the _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_, Kurosawa with _Ran_ and_ Seven Samurai_, Shakespeare with _King Lear_ and _Hamlet_ -- but other artists have only one greatest works though they wrote many others -- Dante and Cervantes are the clearest examples, though many would add Plato to this list saying _The Republic_ clearly stands out.

My position is that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach are all like Dante or Cervantes in the sense that they each strangely have one work which truly stands out like this [Op. 131, Don Giovanni, Mass in B Minor]. Kierkegaard has described Mozart's Don Giovanni in this way, as the one work which truly stands out. Schubert would be the great composer in which one work does not stand above so clearly, so in this sense he is an artist more like Shakespeare, or Homer.

The above is a prelude to my reiteration that Op. 131 stands far far above the Op. 132, 130 or Missa Solemnis, Fidelio, or Hammerklavier.

I do not think Don Giovanni expresses far more in both natural and supernatural humanity. I think everything expressed in Don Giovanni is expressed is the Op. 131 more deeply. And I understand quite well just how remarkable a stance this is, all to the benefit of Beethoven. I reiterate I also listen to Don Giovanni daily.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Beethoven14 said:


> The Op. 131 is far far greater than the Missa Solemnis and Fidelio. In Beethoven's works there is nothing to compare with the Op. 131. Some artists have two or more greatest works, works which are so incredible as to be difficult to compare -- for example, Homer with the _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_, Kurosawa with _Ran_ and_ Seven Samurai_, Shakespeare with _King Lear_ and _Hamlet_ -- but other artists have only one greatest works though they wrote many others -- Dante and Cervantes are the clearest examples, though many would add Plato to this list saying _The Republic_ clearly stands out.
> 
> My position is that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach are all like Dante or Cervantes in the sense that they each strangely have one work which truly stands out like this [Op. 131, Don Giovanni, Mass in B Minor]. ....
> The above is a prelude to my reiteration that Op. 131 stands far far above the Op. 132, 130 or Missa Solemnis, Fidelio, or Hammerklavier.


That's an odd opinion for sure, and as someone who also considers Op. 131 to be one of the greatest works ever written, I must say I totally disagree. I don't think Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven have one piece that stands out in terms of quality against the rest of their work, simply because I do not even think that this is remotely possible! I mean, how do you "stand above" a piece like Mozart's k. 466 or Beethoven's op. 111?

Also, using Fidelio as a choice for comparison rather than, say, the Fifth or Ninth Symphony or is a little strange.

The whole notion of comparing these pieces is a bit silly, anyway. Just appreciate them all.



Edit wow this is super cringe


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## Beethoven14 (Feb 14, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> That's an odd opinion for sure, and as someone who also considers Op. 131 to be one of the greatest works ever written, I must say I totally disagree. I don't think Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven have one piece that stands out in terms of quality against the rest of their work, simply because I do not even think that this is remotely possible! I mean, how do you "stand above" a piece like Mozart's k. 466 or Beethoven's op. 111?
> 
> Also, using Fidelio as a choice for comparison rather than, say, the Fifth or Ninth Symphony or is a little strange.
> 
> The whole notion of comparing these pieces is a bit silly, anyway. Just appreciate them all.


I used Fidelio since the previous post [larold] specifically asked about Fidelio. If instead I put the 9th symphony my position would remain the same.

It is not at all silly to compare composers or pieces. Certain minds and certain moments of inspiration must be prized above others. I am not saying we should destroy or stop studying the other pieces, but I am saying it is important we remember the highest achievements.

From my position one who does not recognize Op. 131 above Beethoven's other works just needs to study music a bit deeper.

The notion that we should appreciate them all is pernicious, it's as if we should be selective only to a certain degree. If we are to be selective at all, and daily we are selective in every aspect of our lives, then we must take this selectivity to the end. It doesn't make sense to me to be selective and then at a certain point say 'now everything that remains is equally good'. If you are to be selective, and who isn't, you must go all the way. And in music this means the recognition of the highest achievement.

It is certainly possible that a better work may be written than Op. 131, I do not deny this; I claim only that right now this is the best we have, and that to not appreciate this lessens one's potential for understanding in music.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Beethoven14 said:


> The Op. 131 is far far greater than the Missa Solemnis and Fidelio. In Beethoven's works there is nothing to compare with the Op. 131. Some artists have two or more greatest works, works which are so incredible as to be difficult to compare -- for example, Homer with the _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_, Kurosawa with _Ran_ and_ Seven Samurai_, Shakespeare with _King Lear_ and _Hamlet_ -- but other artists have only one greatest works though they wrote many others -- Dante and Cervantes are the clearest examples, though many would add Plato to this list saying _The Republic_ clearly stands out.
> 
> My position is that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach are all like Dante or Cervantes in the sense that they each strangely have one work which truly stands out like this [Op. 131, Don Giovanni, Mass in B Minor]. Kierkegaard has described Mozart's Don Giovanni in this way, as the one work which truly stands out. Schubert would be the great composer in which one work does not stand above so clearly, so in this sense he is an artist more like Shakespeare, or Homer.
> 
> ...


Hmm, this is an interesting take. I find it interesting you make an exception with Schubert but not Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. For Mozart, there's the other great Da Ponte operas and piano concertos; for Beethoven, there's the late piano sonatas (!!!) and the symphonies; for Bach, oh my, there's the Chaccone, the Passions, the WTC, the Goldbergs, the Art of Fugue, and more!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Beethoven14 said:


> The Op. 131 is far far greater than the Missa Solemnis and Fidelio. In Beethoven's works there is nothing to compare with the Op. 131. Some artists have two or more greatest works, works which are so incredible as to be difficult to compare -- for example, Homer with the _Iliad_ and _Odyssey_, Kurosawa with _Ran_ and_ Seven Samurai_, Shakespeare with _King Lear_ and _Hamlet_ -- but other artists have only one greatest works though they wrote many others -- Dante and Cervantes are the clearest examples, though many would add Plato to this list saying _The Republic_ clearly stands out.
> 
> My position is that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach are all like Dante or Cervantes in the sense that they each strangely have one work which truly stands out like this [Op. 131, Don Giovanni, Mass in B Minor]. Kierkegaard has described Mozart's Don Giovanni in this way, as the one work which truly stands out. Schubert would be the great composer in which one work does not stand above so clearly, so in this sense he is an artist more like Shakespeare, or Homer.
> 
> ...


This seems to be very much a personal opinion. I have a very difficult time accepting that the Mass in B Minor is obviously better than the Art of Fugue, and would not even compare either of those pieces to the Op. 131 as I consider them to be much 'deeper' works. The opening fugue in Op. 131 is not nearly as emotional (although this is very much a personal thing) or complex (this is true given any reasonable notion of complexity in music) as the final fugue of the Art of Fugue or the Mass in B minor, and I fail to see how the other movements in Op. 131 are as good as that haunting opening Fugue. Personally, I find of all Beethovens's work the Grosse Fugue to be the greatest. Nothing else he composed quite epitomises his themes of struggle and humanity quite like it.

Although I agree such discussions like this can be insightful and am far from believing there is no objective truth in the arts I still think it is useful to remember that all such discussions like this are fraught with subjectivity.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Hmm, this is an interesting take. I find it interesting you make an exception with Schubert but not Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. For Mozart, there's the other great Da Ponte operas and piano concertos; for Beethoven, there's the late piano sonatas (!!!) and the symphonies; for Bach, oh my, there's the Chaccone, the Passions, the WTC, the Goldbergs, the Art of Fugue, and more!


Agreed; I'd be much more (though still not entirely) willing to put 1 or 2 works of Schubert above his rest than to do the same with Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven. I understand that this is because Beethoven14 values these couple of works above anything else by anyone (including Schubert), but still...

These are all great choices; I'd have to add Mozart's late symphonies and Beethoven's other late string quartets.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Personally, I have to agree with you putting Opus 131 at the top of the heap. There is something deeper here than just notes and interpretation.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Opus 131 is my favorite string quartet, but I cannot rank it above the 9th symphony. A transcendent performance of the 9th beats out all other experiences. 

My holy trinity would be the 9th, Don Giovanni, and the St Matthew Passion. I like the B minor Mass, but don’t connect with it as much emotionally.

Tristan und Isolde is also up there, and Bruckner’s 8th and Mahler’s 9th are not far behind.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I could certainly tell you which of the two I personally think is greater (but I won't), however neither makes it on my short list of Greatest Music Ever Written, personal all-time favorites, or even Greatest Work by Mozart/Beethoven. But that doesn't sell either work short. The world would be infinitely poorer without them.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Since Op.131 is a string quartet, I would pick from the same genre in Mozart. I find K421 in D minor quite profound, with its variety of techniques:

chromatic modulation and motivic build in sections such as: 



interesting chromatic and diatonic lines and canonic imitations at: 



thematic variations and inner harmonies at: 



the coda where Mozart emphasizes the ominous 4 note motif with 'painful' chromatic descending lines: 




I would not rate it higher than Beethoven's C sharp minor, but would definitely rate it higher than than say, Schubert's Death and the Maiden.



Brahmsianhorn said:


> My holy trinity would be the 9th, Don Giovanni, and the St Matthew Passion. I like the B minor Mass, but don't connect with it as much emotionally.


Agreed. I feel Bach's G minor Mass is underrated compared to his B minor


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## dismrwonderful (May 5, 2013)

I think it is fallacious to compare apples and oranges. You can try but there is no resolution. Even the juice is one with no resolution with people arguing over pulp, no pulp, or types of cider leading to endless argument and possible intoxication and DUIs.

[Don Giovanni is perfect, the Mass in B Minor is God-like, but the Op. 131 is nature itself. ]

OTOH, you can compare reactions to the pieces you mentioned. You last line is telling. Although there is still room for quibbling here over the specific terms, I think that all listeners will find these works exalting. And that is something worth sharing and discussing.

As for the rest of your post, you are like a BMW with ideas while I am still trying to work through the gears of my big truck. [g] I have given up the struggle with ideas and purchased a vehicle with an automatic transmission that does the shifting for me. [sigh]

Dan


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Beethoven14 said:


> I respect the musical understanding of this forum. I believe the highest works are Mozart's Don Giovanni and Beethoven's 14th Quartet (Op. 131). *My assumption is all works of art may be compared, one greater the other lesser.
> 
> Among these two which is greater?*
> 
> I listen to Don Giovanni daily, but find the Op. 131 quartet to somehow be impossibly higher than even this greatest Mozart opera, and even than the Mass in B minor, or the Art of Fugue. For me, the Op. 131 stands highest in human understanding.


This assumption is absurd, for reasons we have been over hundreds of times on this forum, the lack of universal, objective aesthetic standards being the most obvious. The particular comparison you want to make is ridiculous because one work is absolute instrumental music and the other is an opera.


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