# Igor Stravinsky



## phoenixshade

I don't know how this guy is missing a forum of his own...










For me (and I suspect many others), the Leopold Stowkowski arrangement of _The Rite of Spring_ for Walt Disney's _Fantasia_ (accompanied by animated dinosaurs- What more could a kid want?!?) marked my introduction to Modern era classical music.

For some time, Stravinsky was my favorite composer, and I still hold him in particularly high regard. I daresay that it was _Rite of Spring_ that shook the very foundations of the musical world and pretty much brought about an end to the Romantic era. Certainly, Romantic music continued to be produced, but the political climate of the world and Europe in particular called out for a musical language that was capable of expressing raw turmoil. In emphasizing unusual rhythms (and furthering the unusual harmonies being explored by folk-inspired nationalist composers), Stravinky delivered that idiom, and the musical world hasn't been the same since. Nor did he stop at primitivism- he was a leader, not a follower, at the forefront of later trends in neoclassicism and serialism.

To this day, and probably for the rest of my life, he will remain on my list of the top composers of all time, in the company of Beethoven, Wagner, and Mozart.


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## BuddhaBandit

Stravinsky and Bach are my two favorite composers of all time. I like Stravinsky for the variety of his music- everything from the primitiveness of the Rite to the angelic harmonies of the Symphony of Psalms to the jazz of his ragtime pieces to the neoclassicism of Pulcinella. As for your assertion that he brought an end to the Romantic period, I would give that honor to Debussy or Schoenberg, but I think Stravinsky was a greater composer than either one.

It's nice to see him get a place in the forums!


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## Isola

While I can't say Stravinsky is my all time favourite, I have to say he is another underrated great composer. I love his _Petruchka 3 Movements for Piano_, a sparkling virtuoso piece. _The Rite of Spring _and _The Firebird_ are also among my favourites.


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## Tapkaara

I am an admirer of Stravinsky, and I count him among my favorite composers. I am more partial to his earlier works. As he got older, his music started to become more "modernist," and this is where he begins to lose me.

Notwithstanding, The Firebird, Petrushka...and indeed the Rite...are exemplary, exciting works that command my attention often.

Though it could easily be dismissed as nothing more than inspired juvenilia, his first symphony that he completed while under the guidance of Rimsky-Korsakov is a lot of fun and features some great orchestration...and even melodies...what a thing you don't often hear with this composer!


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## Edward Elgar

Stravinsky tried his hand at so much which shows great versatility and genius. He's a great composer in that respect, but also a great modernist. The Rite was ahead of its time but now it's a much loved piece scoring on the Classic FM's Hall of Fame. I only hope this will be the start of appreciation for the other revolutionaries like Schoenberg.


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## Saturnus

His Firebird hooked on classical music to begin with. Been 7 years since that, saw the ballet live, bought a CD (Harmonia Mundi, Cidade de Granada Orchestra), and I still love it 
I've heard much of his music now, but must admit that I only like The Firebird, The Rite and Appollon.


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## danae

phoenixshade said:


> I don't know how this guy is missing a forum of his own...
> 
> For me (and I suspect many others), the Leopold Stowkowski arrangement of _The Rite of Spring_ for Walt Disney's _Fantasia_ (accompanied by animated dinosaurs- What more could a kid want?!?) marked my introduction to Modern era classical music.


What do you mean "arrangment"? Isn't Stokowski conducting the original score of the _Rite_?


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## Tapkaara

Stokowski is conducting Stravinsky's original 1913 orchestration, but the order of the various numbers does not always match the order of the ballet. So, Stokowsky re-arranged the order of some of the cues, but not the orchestation.


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## Lang

Also there were some pretty extreme liberties taken with balance to match the events of the film.


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## Tapkaara

I may be wrong about my earlier comment that the original orchestration was used in Fantasia...I just read somewhere that Stoki monkied with the orchestration (mostly by reducing the forces) so the Philadelphia Orchestra would have an easier time performing it. I suspect that this is very likely, because when you listen to the music in the film, it does sound "thinner" than you'd expect. Then again, that could also be due to the primitive stereophonic recording system, too.


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## Bach

Fickle man, Stravinsky. The Rite of Spring gives him honours along side Beethoven and Mozart.. but his other music can be quite second rate..

Not a better composer than Debussy. Definitely not.


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## Habib

*Stravinsky & Debussy*

Stravinsky was just a great a composer as Debussy. But it's somewhat ridiculous to compare composers anyway. I mean, they all had something or other to offer & to say. Anyway, I like both of them equally for different reasons.

Also interesting to note how Stravinsky met Debussy during his early years in Paris. & Debussy ballet Jeux was premiered around the same time as the Rite. They were both trying to change the course of music in different ways.


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## Guest

Lang said:


> Also there were some pretty extreme liberties taken with balance to match the events of the film.


As was the case with W.A.M.


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## Tal

Bach said:


> Fickle man, Stravinsky. The Rite of Spring gives him honours along side Beethoven and Mozart.. but his other music can be quite second rate..
> 
> Not a better composer than Debussy. Definitely not.


WRONG!
Check UP: Firebird, Patrushka, his symphonies.


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## Tapkaara

Tal said:


> WRONG!
> Check UP: Firebird, Patrushka, his symphonies.


I think Firebird, Petrushka are all great works, and their quality should not be doubted.

But take music like his ballet Jeu des Cartes...mediocre music at best, I think.


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## World Violist

I'm going to see Gil Shaham playing the Violin Concerto tonight with the local university's symphony orchestra. It'll be interesting; I'm not too familiar with this work, though I remember it being quite rough. Gil is generally not the roughest of violinists. Oh well, I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm worried about the Elgar on the program: the Enigma Variations...


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## Tapkaara

The Violin Concerto is a great work. Yes, a little "acidic," but not without moments of passion and lyricism.

Hope it's a good concert!


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## tahnak

*L'Oiseau Du Feu*

Stravinsky's best ballet. This is composition at dramatic best. The unfolding of motifs and themes in this ballet - The Firebird- is genius.

I have never had dried eyes when I finished listening to this masterpiece.

Two recordings that have touched my heart are the Lorin Maazel/Orchestre de Paris and Kent Nagano/London Symphony.


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## Yagan Kiely

Wow.... so many opinions being put forth has fact... everything '_is' something.... Jeez..._


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## JTech82

tahnak said:


> Stravinsky's best ballet. This is composition at dramatic best. The unfolding of motifs and themes in this ballet - The Firebird- is genius.


Yes, "The Firebird" is a great piece of work. Definitely a piece I return to from time to time.

I'm now starting to understand Stravinsky's true genius the more I listen to him. "Symphony of Psalms" is such a haunting piece.

I have a 22 disc Stravinsky box set coming on Sony that I look forward to hearing.


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## Herzeleide

I adore Stravinsky.

Favourite works:

_Rite of Spring

Symphonies of Wind Instruments

Symphony of Pslams

Oedipus Rex

Canticum Sacrum

The Flood

Movements

The Flood

Requiem Canticles_


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## Sid James

I really like _Oedipus Rex_. It's brimming with propulsive rhythm and energy, a bit like Orff's _Carmina Burana_ (which Stravinsky hated, by the way). Anyway, there is a tension in _Oedipus_ between the static nature of the drama, as told by the narrator, and the sincerity of the emotions expressed (eg. when Oedipus realises that he has been blind to the truth all along). I have a classic recording with Ralph Richardson narrating and Colin Davis conducting. It quite good.


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## Bach

Stravinsky's neoclassical period is reprehensible. However, his serial period is redeemable.


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## Sid James

Bach said:


> Stravinsky's neoclassical period is reprehensible. However, his serial period is redeemable.


I have to disagree with you because I think he produced some very good works in his neoclassical period. Just listen to the _Violin Concerto_, _Apollon Musagete _or _Oedipus Rex_, for example. These still stand upon their own as quite approachable but by no means lacking in complexity, no matter what you compare them with.

I cannot really comment on his serial period as I haven't heard any of those works. They don't seem to hold as strong position in the repertoire as his works from earlier periods. It would be really interesting if I could get my hands on some of them, or if they came up on the radio.

But I think that, like Picasso, Stravinsky had quite a number of periods, and I suppose it's up to the individual listener to make up their mind as to what one appeals to them, or not...


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## Tapkaara

Bach said:


> Stravinsky's neoclassical period is reprehensible. However, his serial period is redeemable.


That is just patently untrue. On both accounts!


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## Lang

I am surprised that no one has mentioned _Agon_, which I believe to be one of his major works.


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## Herzeleide

Lang said:


> I am surprised that no one has mentioned _Agon_, which I believe to be one of his major works.


Bugger. I forgot to mention this work. I really like it.


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## PostMinimalist

Ome of the most enchanting pieces for string orchestra is his Apollon Musagete. It's also very difficult to play especially for the principal first violin. 
As a bass player, Pulcinella has featured strongly in my repertoire - the trombone and bass duet coming up in almost every audition for principal bass in chamber orchestras!


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## Bach

The violin concerto is not a particularly good piece. The neoclassical works that are quite good include the Symphony of Psalms (which is truly excellent) and the Symphony in 3 Movements which is fairly solid.


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## shsherm

I was fortunate enough to see Stravinsky in person when he appeared with The Chicago Symphony for a premier of two of his works about 1964. He was arguably the most famous composer I ever saw although I also saw Aaron Copland a few times.


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## Tapkaara

Bach said:


> The violin concerto is not a particularly good piece. The neoclassical works that are quite good include the Symphony of Psalms (which is truly excellent) and the Symphony in 3 Movements which is fairly solid.


What's wrong with the Violin Concerto, Bach?


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## Lang

Herzeleide said:


> Bugger. I forgot to mention this work. I really like it.


Yes, so do I. One of my favourite Stravinsky works.


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## bassClef

I like most of his works, but no one has yet mentioned Le Baiser de la Fee. While based on themes by Tchaikovsky, he puts his personal stamp on it. I really like it - it has a fairy-tale type quality.


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## Sid James

Today (17 June, 1882) is the anniversary of Stravinsky's birthday...


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## Tapkaara

Andre said:


> Today (17 June, 1882) is the anniversary of Stravinsky's birthday...


What an excellent point! Happy Birthday Igor! Thanks for sharing your genius with the world.


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## Huilunsoittaja

In contrast to everyone else here, I do like Stravinsky, but not for the same reason as you all.

His Symphony in E flat, op. 1 is lovely! 0% classic Stravinsky, but still great stuff! The same goes for his Scherzo Fantastique, op. 3. His early works are more in the Russian Romantic tradition, which I appreciate more.


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## joen_cph

Am mainly listening to the following works

_Capriccio for Piano & Orchestra
Sacre
Firebird
Petrouchka
Agon
Psalm Symphony
Symphony in 3 Movements
Movements f.Piano & Orchestra
Le Chant du Rossignol
Ebony Concerto
Variations for Orchestra _

and to a lesser degree

_Les Noces
Orpheus
Concerto for Piano & Winds
Mavra_

I agree that not all of his works are that great, but his variety in style, inspiration and concept is amazing and makes his oeuvre particularly interesting. Also his liking of the freshness of non-sentimental folk music and his wonderful writing for the wind instruments, qualities he shared with Janacek. I own his later vocal works but still haven´t got that familiar with them; am quite sure that in time I´ll like some of them more.


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## Earthling

_Apollon musagete _and the _Symphony of Psalms _are my two most favourite of his works, though I like quite a lot of his stuff (his rather austere _Mass _is another great piece).

One short piece of his that isn't too well known is a rather mysterious, almost impressionist work for men's chorus and orchestra, _Zvezdoliki_ (often translated "King of the Stars"), completed in 1912. Its full of all sorts of bizarre and fascinating harmonies.


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## Earthling

Tapkaara said:


> I may be wrong about my earlier comment that the original orchestration was used in Fantasia...I just read somewhere that Stoki monkied with the orchestration (mostly by reducing the forces) so the Philadelphia Orchestra would have an easier time performing it. I suspect that this is very likely, because when you listen to the music in the film, it does sound "thinner" than you'd expect. Then again, that could also be due to the primitive stereophonic recording system, too.


The order of the sections is very different, with the "Adoration of the Earth" played last, with horn glissandi added. 

The opening bassoon part appears at the end again (with other woodwinds joining on the last not forming a major triad!).


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## Aramis

Have you heard his Symphony in E? I just did and it's quite exciting to hear such music from him, just check the slow movement:






What a long way he passed from this work (op. 1) to the Rite of Spring.


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## TWhite

Not a favorite composer of mine by a long shot, but that's just me. 

I tend to like his NeoClassical works a bit more than most of his output though. The Concerto for Piano and Winds, the Pulchinella Ballet Suite and the Symphony of Psalms are always refreshing to hear, IMO. 

As to the ballets that 'made' his name, I prefer the first one--Firebird--as an orchestral suite. I find way too much 'waiting in the wings' muscially in the complete score. Petrushka is interesting, and Le Sacre is quite remarkable, but I'll be honest--I have to really listen CLOSELY to realize how groundbreaking it was at its premiere. These days, it almost sounds Post-Romantic.

One Stravinsky that absolutely fascinates me though, is his opera The Rake's Progress. Now THERE is some remarkable theater!

Tom


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## Huilunsoittaja

HAHA now we have a storm in the Atlantic named after him.  That's gotta amount to something.


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## Petwhac

Bach said:


> Fickle man, Stravinsky. The Rite of Spring gives him honours along side Beethoven and Mozart.. but his other music can be quite second rate..
> 
> Not a better composer than Debussy. Definitely not.


Have you ever tried to stay awake through a performance of Pelleas?
Give me Rake's Progress any day!:lol:


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## Huilunsoittaja

Wow. No one said anything here yesterday...

:tiphat:






This is what Stravinsky could have stayed as.


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## Noak

Stravinsky has inspired me greatly as a musician and listener. He has written some of the most beautiful, funniest, coolest and most exciting pieces ever.


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## Sid James

Pasted this here from current listening thread, and I'll continue to do this as I go through this set now:

Decided to listen to this great Stravinsky set again after a while now, bit by bit -

*Stravinsky*
_Septet for piano, violin, viola, cello, clarinet, bassoon, horn _(1952)
This was among Stravinsky's first works using the serial technique. It comes across as very contrapuntal and with very Baroque feel. Hard to tell apart from his earlier neo-classical works, which were still modern tonal. Schoenberg had died the year before, some say Stravinsky went serial after that, being a bit daunted by the inventor of the technique. I don't really think it's important, it's good that he changed. He bought together the modern tonal and serial technique in his late works. He kind of neutralised and ended the so-called "turf wars" between serialists and the rest. In the last two movements here, Stravinsky uses the technique flexibly, there are tone rows of 16 notes, not the conventional 12.

_Concertino for 12 instruments _(original work for string quartet of 1920, this arrangement done in 1952)
This comes across as being a completely different work to the original string quartet version. More orchestral feel here, of course more instruments & more colour. Almost symphonic in scope. Interesting stuff.

_Pastorale_ (composed 1907, this arrangment for violin and four wind instruments, 1933)
This is quite song-like and no wonder, the original version had a vocal part, for soprano. An odd combination as well, the solo violin and an "orchestra" of winds. Stravinsky was nothing but ingenious & creative.

_Ragtime_ (1918)
Composed at the end of the first world war, this may have been triggered by the American soldiers coming to end the war in Europe, bringing with them their ragtimes. Or maybe Stravinsky knew the music of Scott Joplin or even Charles Ives, who incorporated these tunes. Stravinsky said his aim was to bring in this modern dance to the chamber realm, just as composers of the past did with the minuets, waltzes, polkas, etc. Funnily enough, in a few years the ragtime would be ancient history, and Joplin neglected until well after 1945. The "roaring twenties" would bring with it a new craze, the _Charleston_. This is a very colourful and rhythmically bouncy work, interesting use here of the East European traditional instrument, often found in their folk ensembles and gypsy bands, the cimbalom.

All items played by members of the Boston Symphony Chamber Players
(DGG ELoquence, 2cd set)


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## frankentomato

Just listened to the Cello Concerto, and loved it again.


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## science

To be merged into this one: http://www.talkclassical.com/19850-stravinsky.html


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## Noak

I recently fell in love with Stravisnky (again) when I heard his Threni pieces for the first time. Amazing stuff.


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## millionrainbows

This 22-CD box set is the best investment I ever made. The price varies, but I got mine for $30. The mastering is superb! I just noticed that 'blowitouttahere' (one of my favorite vendors) has it for $23.50! How can you resist?
http://amzn.com/B000PTYUQG

My favorite example of his serial works is this one, also dirt-cheap:
http://amzn.com/B0002DRGWU


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## Lokasenna

I've found Stravinsky an acquired taste. When I first heard _The Rite of Spring_, I thought it was horrific and deeply unpleasant. But after subsequent re-listenings, I've realised what he was trying to do, and I feel like I have much more of a handle on the music now - if nothing else, it's pulse-pounding stuff. I've always like _The Firebird_ though...


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## myaskovsky2002

I went to see the Sony box, nowhere it says that is complete, and the comments are rather bad (amazon.ca), isbn B000PTYUQG.
Is this the box you were talking about? 22 CDs

Martin


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## Sonata

I can't say for sure if that's the set he's speaking of, though it certainly appears the only one to match the description. You're right in that it's not complete, but from what I understand, it's fairly comprehensive. I think most of what's missing are alternate versions of included works. 

The comments are rather good at Amazon.com


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## myaskovsky2002

Sonata said:


> I can't say for sure if that's the set he's speaking of, though it certainly appears the only one to match the description. You're right in that it's not complete, but from what I understand, it's fairly comprehensive. I think most of what's missing are alternate versions of included works.
> 
> The comments are rather good at Amazon.com


I read different comments, they are not all of them good

http://www.amazon.com/Works-Igor-Stravinsky/product-reviews/B000PTYUQG/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt_sr_3?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addThreeStar

Martin


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## elgar's ghost

I'm a big fan of various early-ish works of his but the more textually lean Stravinsky's output became the more I like it.


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## aaroncopland

The Firebird has been one of my favorite peices of music, as long as its not Stravinsky directing it. I know its important to try to stick to the composers interpretation, but Stravinsky wanted the finale of the firebird, which is arguably one of the most epic and dramatic endings to a piece of music in history, to sound pecky and short. He does have some very funny quotes out there.


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## myaskovsky2002

aaroncopland said:


> The Firebird has been one of my favorite peices of music, as long as its not Stravinsky directing it. I know its important to try to stick to the composers interpretation, but Stravinsky wanted the finale of the firebird, which is arguably one of the most epic and dramatic endings to a piece of music in history, to sound pecky and short. He does have some very funny quotes out there.


Firebird copied exactly a passage of Russlan and Liudmila by Glinka.

Martin


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## powerbooks

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Firebird copied exactly a passage of Russlan and Liudmila by Glinka.
> 
> Martin


Not uncommon, Bach copied an entire work of Vivaldi and made it to another instrument arrangement (transcripted).


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## powerbooks

Debussy also copied pieces from Tristan in his piano music to mock Wagner, even though he could not escape the magic of the opera himeself!


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## myaskovsky2002

powerbooks said:


> Debussy also copied pieces from Tristan in his piano music to mock Wagner, even though he could not escape the magic of the opera himeself!


Interesting.

Martin


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## powerbooks

myaskovsky2002 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Martin


Tristan chord at 1'17":

YouTube (



) has more detailed description on this.


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## Ripvanwinkle

Lokasenna said:


> I've found Stravinsky an acquired taste. When I first heard _The Rite of Spring_, I thought it was horrific and deeply unpleasant. But after subsequent re-listenings, I've realised what he was trying to do, and I feel like I have much more of a handle on the music now - if nothing else, it's pulse-pounding stuff. I've always like _The Firebird_ though...


Indeed, Stravinsky has grown on me over the years. I can only take him in small doses and I am quite unfamiliar with most of his works so I really can't comment. I am learning to appreciate him more through "Firebird" and "The Rite".


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## noisms

I've always loved Stravinsky since, like the original poster, I fell in love with the dinosaur bit in Fantasia.

A great under-rated masterpiece of his is his "Song of the Nightingale" (the 'symphonic poem' version rather than the opera) which Fritz Reiner conducted with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra somewhere in the 1940s or 50s. A really beautiful and weird piece, extremely evocative like all of his work.


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## Toddlertoddy

What makes Petrushka better than The Firebird or The Firebird better than Petrushka? The Rite is totally out of question because it's usually the best ballet of Stravinsky.

I personally am starting to like the Firebird better because I'm finding Petrushka more and more frivolous.


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## WavesOfParadox

First piece of classical music I ever liked - The Rite of Spring

And Stravinsky remains my all-time favorite composer.


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## bassClef

WavesOfParadox said:


> First piece of classical music I ever liked - The Rite of Spring
> 
> And Stravinsky remains my all-time favorite composer.


I'm in the same club


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## elgar's ghost

Can anyone recommend his ballet Orpheus? It's the only ballet of his I haven't heard and wondered if it's worth investigating because if I were to buy it on disc the chances are that I would have to duplicate something I already have.


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## aleazk

A really amazing documentary:


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## arpeggio

I remember seeing this documentary on a Sunday afternoon on CBS back in the 60's when I was in college. It was not during football season.


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## Neo Romanza

elgars ghost said:


> Can anyone recommend his ballet Orpheus? It's the only ballet of his I haven't heard and wondered if it's worth investigating because if I were to buy it on disc the chances are that I would have to duplicate something I already have.


Yes, I can whole-heartedly recommend _Orpheus_. Try Robert Craft's recording on Naxos _Three Greek Ballets_. One of the best performances I've heard of the work. Also, if you own the Stravinsky Conducts Stravinsky box set, there's a fine performance in that set. Other performances I like are Salonen (a non-sentimental approach that works well), and Volkov (Hyperion).


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## Neo Romanza

WavesOfParadox said:


> First piece of classical music I ever liked - The Rite of Spring
> 
> And Stravinsky remains my all-time favorite composer.


What are some of your other favorite works by Stravinsky? Love your avatar by the way. 'The Red Stare' by Arnold Schoenberg.


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## hello

Stravinsky newbie question - what are some of his compositions similar to Le Sacre Du Primtemps? I've listened to The Firebird and Song Of The Nightingale, and they don't match Le Sacre's intensity.


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## DrKilroy

There aren't any, I think. It is the only one composition by Stravinsky in such style. I believe there are no similar pieces composed in his "Russian" period and I do not have to bother to look for them in his later style periods.  

Best regards, Dr


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## hello

Perhaps there's something similar in his serialist period.


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## DrKilroy

I also thought about this, but I still find it improbable. 

Best regards, Dr


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## Guest

hello said:


> Stravinsky newbie question - what are some of his compositions similar to Le Sacre Du Primtemps? I've listened to The Firebird and Song Of The Nightingale, and they don't match Le Sacre's intensity.


Hello hello You ask a good question now lets wait and see what the local experts come up with


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## Neo Romanza

hello said:


> Stravinsky newbie question - what are some of his compositions similar to Le Sacre Du Primtemps? I've listened to The Firebird and Song Of The Nightingale, and they don't match Le Sacre's intensity.


There's nothing in Stravinsky's oeuvre that matches the intensity and raw, visceral power of _Le Sacre du Printemps_. Stravinsky was incredibly surprised he even composed this ballet to begin with. He never did anything like it again.


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## millionrainbows

Well, Rite was a ballet, so I'd recommend _Petroushka s_ince you've already rejected _The Firebird _as being _"not Rite." 
_
Try one of the 2-piano reductions available. Grierson/Tilson Thomas is one such example.


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## Mahlerian

hello said:


> Stravinsky newbie question - what are some of his compositions similar to Le Sacre Du Primtemps? I've listened to The Firebird and Song Of The Nightingale, and they don't match Le Sacre's intensity.


The two that come closest are Les Noces and Symphony in Three Movements (although the middle movement is quite gentle, the outer movements burst with fury). And regarding his late works, which it seems I'm the only real expert on around here, no, he didn't ever try to imitate the sound or style of Le Sacre. The impression is always far more detached than visceral.


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## hello

millionrainbows said:


> Try one of the 2-piano reductions available. Grierson/Tilson Thomas is one such example.





Mahlerian said:


> The two that come closest are Les Noces and Symphony in Three Movements (although the middle movement is quite gentle, the outer movements burst with fury). And regarding his late works, which it seems I'm the only real expert on around here, no, he didn't ever try to imitate the sound or style of Le Sacre. The impression is always far more detached than visceral.


Thanks. Very helpful.


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## arpeggio

*Latin American composers*



hello said:


> Stravinsky newbie question - what are some of his compositions similar to Le Sacre Du Primtemps? I've listened to The Firebird and Song Of The Nightingale, and they don't match Le Sacre's intensity.


I concur with Mahlerian's post #79.

I do know of many Latin American composers who have composed Rite of Springish works. For example Ginastera has composed many intense rhythmic works. Following are two samples:

The Ballet _Panambí op.1_ (Note: He was only twenty-one when he completed it and I remember reading that some considered it a South American Rite of Spring.):






The last movement of the _First Piano Concerto_:






There is the Australian composer John Antil. He composed a ballet based on aborigine music entitled _Corroboree_. The finale employs the didgeridoo.






There are also many works by Mexican composers like Chavez and Revueltas that employ primitivism.

They ain't Stravinsky, but you might find them interesting.


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## Neo Romanza

Great post, arpeggio! You can't go wrong with Ginastera, Chavez, or Revueltas (some of my favorite composers actually). The Antill is a very interesting work too. Since arpeggio mentioned Antill, I'll add Sculthorpe's _Sun Music_ to the recommendation list as well as Verese's _Ameriques_.


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## PetrB

Mahlerian's post is very accurate.

And there is no other piece which has a completely comparable sustained rhythmic drive, lyricism and vital sound.

Stravinsky was asked how he came up with it, what inspired it, etc. and his immediate response was, "I am the vessel through which _Le Sacre_ passed."

Other works still remembered and performed which were also from that same vogue of nationalist primitivism are:

Sergei Prokofiev ~ a suite from his ballet _Ala i Lolli_ called _Scythian Suite_.
(you might also enjoy his ballet, _Chout._





Bela Bartok ~ another ballet score, _The Miraculous Mandarin_ -- There is a concert suite as extracted by the composer, but I recommend the full-length ballet, as I do also for Stravinsky's already-mentioned _ Petrushka_.
_The Miraculous Mandarin_...





Though quite different, I strongly second Mahlerian's suggestion of Stravinsky's _Les Noces_, for four pianos, percussion, chamber choir and vocal soloists as also 'primal' in another (very "non-western") manner, a masterpiece, and well worth a listen.


----------



## Guest

The most expensive CD that I purchased was "Rite of spring" by the Cleveland Orch cond Lorin Maazel it cost $31.95 and was the only work on the CD @33:20 admitedly it was on the 'Telarc' label which was in those days about the best CD available for Hi Fi audio and it still sound good to day


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## Sid James

I liked the discussion here. With the 100th anniversary of _The Rite of Spring,_ I've been reading about it, including in classical music magazines. Some of these works it influenced where mentioned. What an influential work it is. I was thinking of doing a thread on it separately, a thread on all composers/works it influenced. There are so many. But I don't have time to set it up and be thorough and also spend time replying as I'd like to. Not even sure if its been done already anyway?

But two others are Copland - esp. things like_ Appalachian Spring _- and Orff's _Carmina Burana._


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## PetrB

Tapkaara said:


> I think Firebird, Petrushka are all great works, and their quality should not be doubted.
> 
> But take music like his ballet Jeu des Cartes...mediocre music at best, I think.


L'Histoire du Soldat, Jeu des Cartes, Persephone, Concerto for piano and winds, all somehow lesser, or not nearly as strong as -- all the rest of his output, so many of which are masterworks, large or small. A minor hiccup, I think, in the global evaluation of all of Stravinsky. Rake's Progress, Pulcinella, Concerto for two pianos solo, Oedipus Rex, Violin Concerto, Symphony of Psalms, Orphee, Renard, Les Noces, Mass, Dumbarton Oaks, Variations for piano and orchestra, Threni, and on and on and on.

Some never get beyond those first three ballets. Fine. But that, to point it in your direction, is rather like only knowing and liking the most singularly popular one (only one) of the Sibelius Symphonies and the Swan of Tuonela.


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## Vaneyes

Some good suggestions. Perhaps in my next lifetime, I'll explore Igor's subterranean works.


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## WavesOfParadox

It would be a much safer (and more enjoyable) bet to listen to them with your current life.


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## PetrB

Vaneyes said:


> Some good suggestions. Perhaps in my next lifetime, I'll explore Igor's subterranean works.


Persephone only spent part of the year underground: those months which are not winter, all above ground.


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## John Browne

Love his music.


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## Selby

I recently picked up the Michael Tilson Thomas collection for the Persephone.

I am becoming really interested in the work. I hadn't realized that it has been recorded so few times.

Upon a cursory glance all I could find were versions by Stravinsky, Nagano, and the Tilson Thomas - 3 recordings in 60 years; could that be right?

Any thoughts on this work? I've only listened to it a few times but I am surprised that it gets so little attention.

On a side note I attended a program of The Circus Polka and Petrouchka a few months ago. The performance of Petrouchka was utterly charming.


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## Neo Romanza

Mitchell said:


> On a side note I attended a program of The Circus Polka and Petrouchka a few months ago. The performance of Petrouchka was utterly charming.


Who was the conductor/orchestra?


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## Mahlerian

Mitchell said:


> Any thoughts on this work? I've only listened to it a few times but I am surprised that it gets so little attention.


I'm not a big fan of it, personally. It has some really great music in it, some of the most ravishing of his Neoclassical period, but there's also a lot of filler as Stravinsky is simply providing background for the speaking roles. I'll admit, my lack of knowledge of French may have something to do with it, but I don't much enjoy melodrama as a genre in general (Pierrot lunaire is of a genre unto itself, I feel).


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## Selby

duplicate post deleted


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## Selby

Neo Romanza said:


> Who was the conductor/orchestra?


The Oregon Symphony, Carlos Kalmar conducting. I live outside of Portland, OR and try to support them as much as I can. Their upcoming seasons has a lot of interesting programing I'm excited about - Mahler's Das lied von der Erde in particular.

The program also included Joaquín Rodrigo's "Concierto Andaluz" with the LA Guitar Quartet, who then performed their arrangement of Manuel de Falla's "El amor brujo," the evening ended with Walter Piston's Suite from "The Incredible Flutist."

On a side note the LA Guitar Quartet looked bored to death the entire night. I have no issue with their playing but their showmanship was definitely lacking. Oh well.


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## Neo Romanza

Mitchell said:


> The Oregon Symphony, Carlos Kalmar conducting. I live outside of Portland, OR and try to support them as much as I can. Their upcoming seasons has a lot of interesting programing I'm excited about - Mahler's Das lied von der Erde in particular.


Ah, yes, Kalmar is quite a good conductor. He's been doing some interesting things for Pentatone as well, although I wish he'd drop the whole program-based ideas for his recordings. I think it's kind of cliched. Anyway, yes, it's always good to try and support local orchestras.


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## Jobis

hello said:


> Stravinsky newbie question - what are some of his compositions similar to Le Sacre Du Primtemps? I've listened to The Firebird and Song Of The Nightingale, and they don't match Le Sacre's intensity.


I'd agree with the suggestion of Les Noces. I'd also add the symphony of wind instruments and canticum sacrum. They have a lot of umph to them, perhaps not on the same level as Le Sacre but I'd say they're equal in their own way.


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## PetrB

Mitchell said:


> I recently picked up the Michael Tilson Thomas collection for the Persephone.
> 
> I am becoming really interested in the work. I hadn't realized that it has been recorded so few times.
> 
> Upon a cursory glance all I could find were versions by Stravinsky, Nagano, and the Tilson Thomas - 3 recordings in 60 years; could that be right?
> 
> Any thoughts on this work? I've only listened to it a few times but I am surprised that it gets so little attention.
> 
> On a side note I attended a program of The Circus Polka and Petrouchka a few months ago. The performance of Petrouchka was utterly charming.


Stravinsky conducting, CBC symphony, Vera Zorina in the speaking role / André Cluytens (with Nicolai Gedda, 1955, Paris) / Sir Andrew Davis (Paul Groves, London) / Michael Tilson Thomas (Stuart Neill, 1999, San Francisco).

The work is one of my soft-spot favorites, while I hate music with speaking roles (Stravinsky later also said he thought speech combined with music just did not work.) I feel too there is some of his most gorgeous neoclassical writing in this piece, and perhaps what is more 'stage-work filler,' -- though I tend to think Stravinsky did not do filler, really -- as evidenced by all his other full-length ballets and stage works.

The work is triply problematical to perform, ii.e. more costly and less practical, requiring the narrator, Perséphone, (usually an actor, not a musician, who knows music enough to follow a score and a conductor), a full orchestra, chorus, plus children's chorus. The original marked tempi are generally thought slow (in concert) and probably have to do with the practical staging of this cantata / melodrama / ballet. I would argue that apart from stage considerations, dramatic consideration of its being somewhat slow, or stately, has to do with an intent to convey this antique subject matter in a somewhat slow and ritualistic manner.

Those tempi only add to the technical virtuosity required of the tenor,(Eumolphe), which is already extremely demanding, as it is comprised of almost nothing but very long (lovely writing) phrases which sit high throughout the piece.

It has also been recorded by Robert Kraft, (Orchestra of St. Luke's) that tempo 'adjusted' to a (maybe) more listenable higher speed for concert presentation.

I heard the Andrew Davis recording and was quite impressed, the slower tempi taken. Some quibble with the British Tenor's
(Paul Groves) French diction


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## Selby

PetrB -

I always get so much out of your thoughtful responses. You are a valuable resource on this forum.


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## PetrB

Mitchell said:


> PetrB -
> 
> I always get so much out of your thoughtful responses. You are a valuable resource on this forum.


I've gotten so much from music, (put in a hell of a lot, too, but that always felt like getting as well,) that it is very easy to want to give some back to others who also love it.

so...

Thanks and, Aw shucks


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## Vaneyes

Symphony of Psalms is analyzed, with suggested recs. You only need the old man's.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to.../symphony-guide-stravinsky-symphony-of-psalms


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## Berlioznestpasmort

This thread is rapidly aging (unlike the rest of us) but I'd like to add this single - perhaps not so simple - point: I believe that Stravinsky will be seen a century from now as the Bach of the 20th century. He is_ that _important; it astounds me that even among many knowledgeable classical fans there are many that have not heard some of his most intriguing work. I also wonder how many of us enjoyed his 'bio-pic" (of a sort, at least a chapter or two of his life): Jan Kounen's _Coco & Igor _? Three thumbs up from me (so good I thought I'd sprout a new one just for my review).


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## PetrB

Berlioznestpasmort said:


> This thread is rapidly aging (unlike the rest of us) but I'd like to add this single - perhaps not so simple - point: I believe that Stravinsky will be seen a century from now as the Bach of the 20th century. He is_ that _important


This has already been said of Stravinsky, pretty consistently, in history books since the last quarter of the 20th century. That century now done and gone, I can see no reason I can think of to think his music, its importance and stature in proportion to the balance of music literature up to that date will be reassessed as anything less, and that he will keep that title 'Bach of the 20th century.'

He is given that appellation because, like Bach, Stravinsky 'summed up' the preceding two centuries of musical practice which came before in a fully understanding synthesis as the basis for new invention. That resulted in a plain, clear and fresh musical voice unlike any before it.

Unlike Bach, in so doing, he also catapulted a dramatic change in the direction of music of his time which had an immediate, widespread and long lasting influence upon numbers of other composers throughout that century.

This is a composer whose nearly every piece, great or small, has the hallmarks of 'masterly' and masterpiece' upon them.


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## Marschallin Blair

Jobis said:


> I'd agree with the suggestion of Les Noces. I'd also add the symphony of wind instruments and canticum sacrum. They have a lot of umph to them, perhaps not on the same level as Le Sacre but I'd say they're equal in their own way.


I saw Stephen Stucky's orchestration of Les Noces with Salonen and the L.A. Phil a few years back at the Walt Disney Concert Hall. It was great fun. I really like that the thickened textures he breathed into the music.


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## Marschallin Blair

Neo Romanza said:


> There's nothing in Stravinsky's oeuvre that matches the intensity and raw, visceral power of _Le Sacre du Printemps_. Stravinsky was incredibly surprised he even composed this ballet to begin with. He never did anything like it again.


You can say THAT again.

I positively adore how polished and enchanting the Firebird's orchestrations are, but in my view it's merely clever, svelte Rimsky-Korsakov in Mlada-mode.

Le Sacre is just a stupendously original achievement-- and Markevitch is just the most visceral interpreter of this masterpiece, bar none. . . there I go again howling like a blockhead on the soapbox. My extended apology. The performance just resonates with me, I can't help it:


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## Marschallin Blair

Marschallin Blair said:


> You can say THAT again.
> 
> I positively adore how polished and enchanting the Firebird's orchestrations are, but in my view it's merely clever, svelte Rimsky-Korsakov in Mlada-mode.
> 
> Le Sacre is just a stupendously original achievement-- and Markevitch is just the most visceral interpreter of this masterpiece, bar none. . . there I go again howling like a blockhead on the soapbox. My extended apology. The performance just resonates with me, I can't help it:
> 
> View attachment 33551
> View attachment 33551


. . . the, uh, '59 performance, that is. [Blonde moment redivivus.]


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## hpowders

Never took to the Firebird; even lukewarm toward Petrushka. Le Sacre du Printemps is a different story. One of my favorite pieces. Would love to see it danced to some day.


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## Jobis

I love almost all of Igor's inventions. One of my all time favourites for sure! I think there was some kind of symphony in E flat that wasn't all that great, but other than that I can't really fault any work of his.


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## Avey

I only recently stumbled upon this. So, for those who were unaware as well...


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## sharik




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## PetrB

sharik said:


>


In America, you are just a nobody loser unless you have been arrested by the police at least once. :tiphat:


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## sharik

PetrB said:


> In America, you are just a nobody loser unless you have been arrested by the police at least once


that may be, but to arrest for only performing the US National Anthem in avantgardist style, hmm?..


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## Mahlerian

sharik said:


> that may be, but to arrest for only performing the US National Anthem in avantgardist style, hmm?..


Adding a major seventh chord makes something avant-garde?

All that easy listening and Broadway avant-garde stuff sure seems to bring in the masses...


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## PetrB

sharik said:


> that may be, but to arrest for only performing the US National Anthem in avantgardist style, hmm?..


(-: Ahhh. Urban legends and internet myths:

_"The photo is from 1940, and is for a passport application."_

The arrangement of the Star Spangled Banner was done in 1941, the premiere given in Los Angeles within that year.

The 'infamous' performance in Boston was in 1944. 
_"After performing his arrangement of the Star Spangled Banner with the orchestra, he was approached prior to the second scheduled concert by the Boston Commissioner of Police who warned him that he must remove the work from his concert or the parts would be seized by the police. There was a Massachusetts law prohibiting any rearrangement of the anthem apparently. Stravinsky did as he was requested and that was the end of the story."_

Ahhh. Urban legends and internet myths


----------



## KenOC

PetrB said:


> (-: Ahhh. Urban legends and internet myths:-)


I have also read that the photo was taken for documentation required (and periodically updated) for resident aliens in those days, something taken quite seriously then. Stravinsky did not become a US citizen until 1945.

But it does look like they worked him over downstairs first!


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## mstar

Avey said:


> I only recently stumbled upon this. So, for those who were unaware as well...


The recording I listen to, and ironically, that I just now listened to! Always enjoyable


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## Marschallin Blair

*Stravinsky Contra Water Birds in Bridal Dresses*






_"To listen is an effort, and just to hear is no merit. A duck can hear."_

- Stravinsky

He's an optimist though. He's never had that much experience listening to his later works; clever as they are.


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## Mahlerian

Marschallin Blair said:


> He's an optimist though. He's never had that much experience listening to his later works; clever as they are.


Gielen's recording on DG is far better than Craft's. Most of the late works have been bettered by other performers since the Columbia set was recorded.


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## elgar's ghost

Can anyone please tell me how well does Gielen's recording of Moses und Aron compare to those of Boulez?

Apologies for asking a non-Stravinksy question.


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## Mahlerian

elgars ghost said:


> Can anyone please tell me how well does Gielen's recording of Moses und Aron compare to those of Boulez?
> 
> Apologies for asking a non-Stravinsky question.


I don't know Gielen's. Both of Boulez's are excellent, and I can recommend the Kegel on Berlin Classics as well. I think the Naxos recording with Kluttig is rather poor. Scherchen's is a good performance, but abysmal sound. Some of the worst I've ever heard on a classical recording.


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## elgar's ghost

Thanks for your reply, M.


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## hpowders

Stravinsky, Le Sacre du Printemps
Valery Gergiev, Kirov Orchestra.

Highly recommended to those for whom this great score is not simply an exercise in rhythm.
Here's a performance that plays it for its musical value and it succeeds brilliantly!


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## sharik

when talk _Le Sacre du Printemps_ we should keep in mind that Stravinsky was hugely influenced by The Mighty Five, namely Mussorgsky's _The Pictures At An Exhibition_ and Rimsky-Korsakov works like _The Snow Maiden_ etc., this is where avantgarde really took its start.


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## PetrB

sharik said:


> when talk _Le Sacre du Printemps_ we should keep in mind that Stravinsky was hugely influenced by The Mighty Five, namely Mussorgsky's _The Pictures At An Exhibition_ and Rimsky-Korsakov works like _The Snow Maiden_ etc., this is where avantgarde really took its start.


_But of course_ it was an exclusively Russian invention, like the telephone, television, were completely Russian inventions... etc.


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## Morimur

PetrB said:


> _But of course_ it was an exclusively Russian invention, like the telephone, television, were completely Russian inventions... etc.


Let's not forget _Caviar!_ The Russians invented _that_ too!


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## sharik

PetrB said:


> _But of course_ it was an exclusively Russian invention, like the telephone, television, were completely Russian inventions... etc.


television and *radio* but not telephone.


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## PetrB

sharik said:


> television and *radio* but not telephone.


.......,,,,,.......:lol:.....:lol:.....:lol:


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## sharik

PetrB said:


> .......,,,,,.......:lol:.....:lol:.....:lol:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_K._Zworykin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Stepanovich_Popov


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## Vaneyes

elgars ghost said:


> Can anyone please tell me how well does Gielen's recording of Moses und Aron compare to those of Boulez?
> 
> Apologies for asking a non-Stravinksy question.


In this, I prefer Gielen over Boulez DG (haven't heard Boulez Sony). Gielen has more edge, and the soloists are perfectly caught. Boulez' soloists seemed relatively distant. :tiphat:


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## elgar's ghost

Vaneyes said:


> In this, I prefer Gielen over Boulez DG (haven't heard Boulez Sony). Gielen has more edge, and the soloists are perfectly caught. Boulez' soloists seemed relatively distant. :tiphat:


Thanks, V - there don't appear to be many reviews of the Gielen flying about.


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## Dustin

This may have already been posted here or somewhere else before but I thought it was pretty cool. It's a video of Stravinsky talking to a friend. I was bored and just Youtubed "Stravinsky interview", not knowing if any even existed, and this popped up.


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## Alypius

I would like to see if we get some more sustained discussions going in this section of the forum. 
So a proposal:

I'm going to post 10 works by individual composers (in this case, Stravinsky). I'll list them in personal order of preference. I'll follow each with a favorite performance. What I would ask is that when people respond, they do one of two things:

(a) Argue for alternative works to listen to.
AND / OR 
(b) Argue for alternative / better performances of each.

My interest in this is partly personal and partly pedagogical. The pedagogical part is that when newcomers come and read these threads, it might help guide them to a basic core of must-listen-to works and must-listen-to performances. The personal part is that I might find better performances of personal favorites or get new perspectives on composers whose works I enjoy.

Here's my Stravinsky list:

*1. The Rite of Spring (Le Sacre du Printemps) (1913).* Performance: Valery Gergiev / Kirov Orchestra (Philips, 2001)

*2. Pétrouchka (1911; rev. 1947).* Performance: Pierre Boulez / Cleveland Orchestra (Deutsche Grammophon, 1992) (also in Pierre Boulez Conducts Stravinsky box set (2012)

*3. The Firebird (L'Oiseau de feu) (1910).* Performance: Valery Gergiev / Kirov Orchestra (Philips, 1995).

*4. Symphony in Three Movements (1945).* Performance: Pierre Boulez / Berliner Philharmoniker (Deutsche Grammophon, 1996). (also in _Pierre Boulez Conducts Stravinsky_ box set (2012)

*5. Agon (1957).* Performance: Michael Gielen / SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden (SWR, 2008).

*6. The Soldier's Tale (L'histoire de soldat) (1918).* Performance: Igor Stravinsky, _Works of Igor Stravinsky_ box set, disc 3 (Columbia, 2007)

*7. Symphony of Psalms (1930; rev. 1948).* Performance: Simon Rattle / Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI, 2007)

*8. Symphony in C (1939-1940).* Performance: Simon Rattle / Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI, 2007)

*9. The Wedding (Les Noces) (1923).* Performance: Robert Craft / Philharmonia Orchestra (Naxos, 2005)

*10. Requiem Canticles (1966).* Performance: Michael Gielen / SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden (SWR, 2008)

Are these 10 works the most urgent ones to explore? Or do you recommend others? 
Are there better performances of these? 
If so, please discuss why you would recommend alternatives.


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## Mahlerian

I'd replace the Symphony in Three Movements with the Octet for winds (1923) (Stravinsky's recording is a fine one), The Soldier's Tale with the Duo Concertant (1932) (the recent Frautschi/Denk recording on Naxos is very good), and the Requiem Canticles with Threni (1958) (Stravinsky's recording isn't great, but it's the best available).

The only recording on your list I would replace is Les Noces. I'd go for this Eotvos recording on Hungaroton:


----------



## Alypius

Mahlerian said:


> I'd replace the Symphony in Three Movements with the Octet for winds (1923) (Stravinsky's recording is a fine one), The Soldier's Tale with the Duo Concertant (1932) (the recent Frautschi/Denk recording on Naxos is very good), and the Requiem Canticles with Threni (1958) (Stravinsky's recording isn't great, but it's the best available).
> 
> The only recording on your list I would replace is Les Noces. I'd go for this Eotvos recording on Hungaroton:


Mahlerian, Thanks for those recommendations. #11 on my list was the _Threni_, but, like you, I keep looking for a better recording. I'm especially grateful for your recommendation for a replacement of _Les Noces_. There is a wonderful raw energy in Stravinsky's own recording. I thought Craft's was a bit better, but I've heard that Eotvos is not only a fine composer, but a fine conductor. I had never seen that recording before. What makes it better? The singers? the quality of the recording? elements of Eotvos' interpretation?


----------



## Mahlerian

Alypius said:


> Mahlerian, Thanks for those recommendations. #11 on my list was the _Threni_, but, like you, I keep looking for a better recording. I'm especially grateful for your recommendation for a replacement of _Les Noces_. There is a wonderful raw energy in Stravinsky's own recording. I thought Craft's was a bit better, but I've heard that Eotvos is not only a fine composer, but a fine conductor. I had never seen that recording before. What makes it better? The singers? the quality of the recording? elements of Eotvos' interpretation?


For one thing, the recording has a very wide dynamic range, giving it a good amount of punch, and a good depth to it that allows you to hear the difference between, say, one piano and two pianos. The ensemble and chorus handle the cross rhythms with precision, and captures the Russian flavor and the visceral excitement of the piece. One of the problems I have with the Columbia recording is that it's sung in English.


----------



## ptr

Alypius said:


> *6. The Soldier's Tale (L'histoire de soldat) (1918).* Performance: Igor Stravinsky, _Works of Igor Stravinsky_ box set, disc 3 (Columbia, 2007)


You really have not heard A Soldiers Tale if You have not listened to Igor Markevitch with Jean Cocteau and Peter Unstinov (Philips), they really put fire into their Performances! It is one of a kind!



> 7. Symphony of Psalms (1930; rev. 1948). Performance: Simon Rattle / Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI, 2007)
> 
> 8. Symphony in C (1939-1940). Performance: Simon Rattle / Berliner Philharmoniker (EMI, 2007)


I'm not really a fan of Georg Solti, but his recording of the Three Symphonies (Decca) with the Chicago Symphony quite makes me sit up straight listening!

As for the big early ballets, I would not want to be without Igor Markevitch's recordings (EMI/HMV/Testament), he seem to make everything danceable, rhythmically correct if You like, a fun thing seeing myself write considering I have two left feet!, Bernstein's NYPhil and Boulez BBCSO of Le Sacre (Both CBS/SONY) are also very bouncy and vivid! I prefer any of these to Gergiev and the later Boulez!

As for alternative works to the list, I'd dump one of the ballets as I think that they are much to same same, specially Pétrouchka and the Firebird and put on the Violin Concerto there, I think it shows a different brighter side of Stravinsky, I'd choose the newish recording with Patricia Kopanitschkaja and Vladimir Jurowski (Naive), I'd also dump one of the orchestral Symphonies in favour of the Octet for wind instruments, it received some flogging in its time for deviating to much from Stravinsky's previous more primal works, but I think it is a very fine testament to his writing for smaller ensembles, I suggest looking for the London Sinfonietta's recording (Decca), they are an amazing elite ensemble that has Stravinsky pinned to the bones!

I'm also not that sure about "Agon", mostly because it never appealed to me (  ), I'd probably want to dump it in favor for some of the solo piano music, which I feel is a greatly underestimated side of Stravinsky, why not the Concerto for Two Pianos, it has every quality one could wish for in a Stravinsky work, Vladimir Ashkenazy & Andrei Gavrilov made a superior recording (Decca).

BTW, Peter Eötvös is a brilliant conductor, I've had the pleasure of hearing him conduct several times and find him musically old school!

/ptr


----------



## Alypius

ptr said:


> You really have not heard A Soldiers Tale if You have not listened to Igor Markevitch with Jean Cocteau and Peter Unstinov (Philips), they really put fire into their Performances! It is one of a kind!
> 
> I'm not really a fan of Georg Solti, but his recording of the Three Symphonies (Decca) with the Chicago Symphony quite makes me sit up straight listening!
> 
> As for the big early ballets, I would not want to be without Igor Markevitch's recordings (EMI/HMV/Testament), he seem to make everything danceable, rhythmically correct if You like, a fun thing seeing myself write considering I have two left feet!, Bernstein's NYPhil and Boulez BBCSO of Le Sacre (Both CBS/SONY) are also very bouncy and vivid! I prefer any of these to Gergiev and the later Boulez!
> 
> As for alternative works to the list, I'd dump one of the ballets as I think that they are much to same same, specially Pétrouchka and the Firebird and put on the Violin Concerto there, I think it shows a different brighter side of Stravinsky, I'd choose the newish recording with Patricia Kopanitschkaja and Vladimir Jurowski (Naive), I'd also dump one of the orchestral Symphonies in favour of the Octet for wind instruments, it received some flogging in its time for deviating to much from Stravinsky's previous more primal works, but I think it is a very fine testament to his writing for smaller ensembles, I suggest looking for the London Sinfonietta's recording (Decca), they are an amazing elite ensemble that has Stravinsky pinned to the bones!
> 
> I'm also not that sure about "Agon", mostly because it never appealed to me (  ), I'd probably want to dump it in favor for some of the solo piano music, which I feel is a greatly underestimated side of Stravinsky, why not the Concerto for Two Pianos, it has every quality one could wish for in a Stravinsky work, Vladimir Ashkenazy & Andrei Gavrilov made a superior recording (Decca).
> 
> BTW, Peter Eötvös is a brilliant conductor, I've had the pleasure of hearing him conduct several times and find him musically old school!
> 
> /ptr


ptr, Thanks for those. I had the Violin Concerto high on my list, and dropped it off only at the last minute. The performance I have is by Hilary Hahn. It's fine one, and I saw Gil Shaham perform it live a year ago. I had seen that ads for that recent performance by Patricia Kopanitschkaja -- It's now on my wishlist. I only know Markevich's classic performances of the _Rite of Spring_. I've never heard his other ones. I appreciate the heads up.

Take some time with _Agon_. It's worth it: it's dance-able 12-tone no less! Here's comments from Alex Ross' _The Rest Is Noise_, p. 422-424:

"If Stravinsky's twelve-tone writing failed to satisfy the implacable Boulez, it did restore the composer's faith in himself. Despite the change of technique, characteristic traits and tics remained. Like Berg before him, Stravinsky manipulated the series in order to generate whatever material, tonal or atonal, he required; and he delighted in the hidden continuities that emerge from repetitions of the twelve-tone row--'like so many changes in a peal of bells,' to quote Stephen Walsh. In other words Stravinsky's old bopping, bouncing patterns keep churning beneath the variegated surface....

Agon came into being at the behest of George Balanchine and Lincoln Kirstein, the choreographer and impresario, respectively, of the New York City ballet.... Stravinsky filled Balanchine's time slots down to the second; Balanchine invented moves that were organically related to Stravinsky's gestures, at once athletic and abstract ... Kirstein had sent along a copy of Francois de Lauze's seventeenth-century manual _Apologie de la danse_; Stravinsky and Balanchine eventually decided to translate these ancient steps into modern forms, radically reinventing them in the process...

This last great Stravinsky ballet, for twelve dancers in twelve sections, mixes sounds and styles from several centuries of musical history as well as from several decades of the composer's career. Regal, neo-Renaissance trumpet fanfares set the piece in motion and return several times as organizing punctuation. Driving _Rite_-like rhythms and creeping chromatic lines give shape to the Double and Triple Pas-de-Quatre. Stately Baroque rhythms decorate the Sarabande, surreal Renaissance twanglings animate the Galliarde. Twelve-tone writing comes into play in the Coda of the First Pas-de-Trois, joined to scrappy violin solos that recall _Histoire du soldat_. Tensely expressive string lines, vaguely reminiscent of Berg's _Lyric Suite_, make for a melancholy Pas de Deux. Finally, in the Four Duos and Four Trios, the archaic-modern ritual acquires a jitter of jazz.

All this is highly absorbing in itself, but the music really pulses with life when it is played alongside the Balanchine action that Stravinsky had in mind as he wrote: the streetwise look of the dancers in their rehearsal clothes; the four males standing stone-still at the outset of the piece, their backs turned to the audience; the acting out of the smallest details in the score, not just the rhythms but the placement of chords high or low, the differentiation of timbre, the lengthening or shortening of note values; the way the dancers register beats in every part of their bodies, with twitchings of the shoulder, snaps of the wrist, extensions or lashings of the arm; and the cohesiveness of the entire conception, reconciling brain and body, the cerebral and the sexual."​


----------



## Blancrocher

ptr said:


> I'm also not that sure about "Agon", mostly because it never appealed to me (  ), I'd probably want to dump it in favor for some of the solo piano music, which I feel is a greatly underestimated side of Stravinsky, why not the Concerto for Two Pianos, it has every quality one could wish for in a Stravinsky work, Vladimir Ashkenazy & Andrei Gavrilov made a superior recording (Decca).


I would also recommend that Ashkenazy/Gavrilov disk (which is selling cheap on Amazon, btw). As regards Agon, I tend to think of that as a ballet with Balanchine's choreography rather than as a purely instrumental work; I'd strongly recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it on the stage. Here's a brief clip: 




For the list of 10, I'd definitely want Orpheus (probably in Craft's version); given all the ballets in the list, I'd include it over The Firebird.

As an aside, I'll also mention that Stravinsky's autobiography is available free online: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/36169/36169-h/36169-h.htm

Very good read!


----------



## Guest

I'm just glad you squeezed a serial work into the top 5


----------



## Mandryka

Mahlerian said:


> I'd replace the Symphony in Three Movements with the Octet for winds (1923) (Stravinsky's recording is a fine one), The Soldier's T
> 
> The only recording on your list I would replace is Les Noces. I'd go for this Eotvos recording on Hungaroton:


What did you think of Pokrovsky Ensemble? I have the Eötvös CD and prefered the way he plays the 1923 to the way he plays the 1917. It's hard to find a good record of a version with smaller orchestration. If I have a critiscism of Eötvös it's that it sounds a bit held-back.

If you can suggest a good Agon recording I'd appreciate it. I assume there's still no satisfying DVD of the Balanchine (I've seen the one from New York which was on youtube.) Are there any alternatives to the Balanchine?


----------



## joen_cph

For sound recordings of "Agon", I like the old Robert Irving/New York Ensemble (originally on the Kapp LP label) and Atherton/London Sinfonietta (Decca), actually much more than Stravinsky/Craft and Mravinsky´s.

Both better integrated (though one shouldn´t think that Mravinsky could have such a sloppy day), and livelier.

I´m sure there are other good ones. It´s not really a work that has been recorded so much, in spite of it being attractive.


----------



## Blake

Jamming some of Chailly's _Petrouchka and Pulcinella_ at the moment. It's pretty outstanding.


----------



## deprofundis

I bought today Stravinsky's Firebird and rites of spring, on a Deluxe digipack edition(on naive a french compagny) whit a nice colorful booklet (artwork is amazing).The conductor is tugan sokhiev and the orchestra is toulouse orchestre national du capitole.A very nice cd it come whit a dvd of the rites of spring concert yea!

Someone here has the same cd ?, i had the robert craft version on naxos of rites of spring not that its a bad version but cheaper compare to this one.Has for the fire bird i had no version except my father's cd.


----------



## Avey

I have listened to the _Dumbarton Oaks_ concerto several times over the past couple days. One of the sweetest sounding pieces. So brief, so tightly knit.


----------



## Vaneyes

Blake said:


> Jamming some of Chailly's _Petrouchka and Pulcinella_ at the moment. *It's pretty outstanding*.
> 
> View attachment 46134


That, I'm not surprised to hear, since I've owned this one for nearly twenty years.:tiphat:


----------



## violadude

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Wow. No one said anything here yesterday...
> 
> :tiphat:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Stravinsky could have stayed as.


It's a good thing he didn't.


----------



## starthrower

What do you Stravinsky-ites think of the Symphony in C? I heard this on the radio last night. At first I didn't like the sound of it, but the work won me over, and I found myself listening very closely to everything that was going on in this complex score. There aren't any tunes you can whistle, but a lot of vigorous playing of the parts you can focus your listening on. The recording I heard was by the CSO conducted by Solti.


----------



## Mahlerian

starthrower said:


> What do you Stravinsky-ites think of the Symphony in C? I heard this on the radio last night. At first I didn't like the sound of it, but the work won me over, and I found myself listening very closely to everything that was going on in this complex score. There aren't any tunes you can whistle, but a lot of vigorous playing of the parts you can focus your listening on. The recording I heard was by the CSO conducted by Solti.


I think it's an excellent work, from his reconstruction of sonata form in the first movement through the delicate ballet of the second and the raucous dance of the third. The fourth movement brings together elements from the first movement in a completely different way before coming to a radiant close.

As for whistleable tunes, how about the main motif of the first movement?


----------



## starthrower

Mahlerian said:


> As for whistleable tunes, how about the main motif of the first movement?


I will have to listen again to Stravinsky's version in the box set.


----------



## Weston

aleazk said:


> A really amazing documentary:


I thought it a good idea to resurrect this documentary link from a couple of years ago in case anyone missed it. I only just discovered it and I'm about halfway through now. We always think of composers as stern-faced serious tormented souls, but this man had an impish grin that comes across as mischievous as his music and totally unexpected. Watching him makes me feel connected to history. It's a joy and a wonder.


----------



## Albert7

This past weekend I heard your Symphony in Three Movements live with the Utah Symphony and it was incredible. The driving rhythms and syncopation really points in the direction for American minimalism in many ways (thanks to Ben for this insight). Reich, Glass, and Adams will be thanking you for those facets.

I am really enjoying your work a lot lately. I don't feel that I have a good handle on the variety of approaches that you take but soon enough, I will continue to explore more.

And your Greek ballets. Very underrated I think.


----------



## dzc4627

your septet is fantastic! probably my favorite piece...or maybe agon, another overlooked gem. the rite is great as well. definitely my top 3 favorite pieces of music. the order that they are in shift regularly. 


'till the end, my dear!


----------



## Albert7

dzc4627 said:


> your septet is fantastic! probably my favorite piece...or maybe agon, another overlooked gem. the rite is great as well. definitely my top 3 favorite pieces of music. the order that they are in shift regularly.
> 
> 'till the end, my dear!


amen, amen, amen. you are on point.


----------



## Avey

The Violin Concerto is currently my favorite piece. Listened to it several times over the past two days. So much to speak to. Too much to put into words. For once.


----------



## dzc4627

his violin concerto is great. grandly emotional.


----------



## Birdsong88

I have listened to almost every work he has composed. Now to find the pieces that I have not listened to.


----------



## Avey

Avey said:


> The Violin Concerto...


OK, seriously, the final movement, the capriccio: Those first several measures may be the brightest, most joyous notes I have ever heard. The syncopated rhythm, the flute mocking the upper register, the violin just rushing out in a frenzy -- such an extraordinary entrance.

Oh, and where a cadenza would be, at the coda, if you will, that obsessive, almost demonic theme comes in -- like where the heck did that come from? And where are we going to end up?

Well, back to the start, of course! Because the violin -- instead of answering with its own threatening and foreboding statement -- responds in kind, with wit, bright and whimsical. For real, listen to the violin's answer. It is _mocking_ those pessimistic tones, turning the harsh attitude right back around. Amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Edit: Also, after listening to lots of recordings, Hilary Hahn with Academy of St. Martin is my preferred. The pace is to my liking.


----------



## Albert7

Such a great piece to harbor within...


----------



## MoonlightSonata

Avey said:


> OK, seriously, the final movement, the capriccio: Those first several measures may be the brightest, most joyous notes I have ever heard. The syncopated rhythm, the flute mocking the upper register, the violin just rushing out in a frenzy -- such an extraordinary entrance.
> 
> Oh, and where a cadenza would be, at the coda, if you will, that obsessive, almost demonic theme comes in -- like where the heck did that come from? And where are we going to end up?
> 
> Well, back to the start, of course! Because the violin -- instead of answering with its own threatening and foreboding statement -- responds in kind, with wit, bright and whimsical. For real, listen to the violin's answer. It is _mocking_ those pessimistic tones, turning the harsh attitude right back around. Amazing. Absolutely amazing.
> 
> Edit: Also, after listening to lots of recordings, Hilary Hahn with Academy of St. Martin is my preferred. The pace is to my liking.


I haven't heard the Violin Concerto! It sounds fantastic!


----------



## dzc4627

happy birthday igor...! thanks for really getting me into the classical scene. and though i may be very schnittke-occupied at the moment, i always remember my roots!


----------



## Avey

Yo, FYI

*Avey*, who has always thought _Apollo Musagete_ is a preeminent work among the ballet form _and_ 20th century compositions, now admits that _Orpheus_ and _Agon_ -- those other Greek ballets -- are equally as great (well, maybe slightly below in his power rankings) and make him realize, for maybe the dozenth time, that *Igor Stravinsky* is not only the most important 20th Century composer, but way more than that, i.e. like a profound figure in the development of _music_ generally, talking contemporary pop/rock/whatever today.

That is, what did *Stravinsky* write that was not worth appreciating?


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Meanwhile I find his entire neoclassical period to be pure meh, and by the time he got to Webern it was too late, new composers had taken over.


----------



## Avey

Richannes Wrahms said:


> Meanwhile I find his entire neoclassical period to be pure meh, and by the time he got to Webern it was too late, new composers had taken over.


Oh, OK .

*NEXT*


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

lol .


----------



## seven four

phoenixshade said:


> I don't know how this guy is missing a forum of his own...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me (and I suspect many others), the Leopold Stowkowski arrangement of _The Rite of Spring_ for Walt Disney's _Fantasia_ (accompanied by animated dinosaurs- What more could a kid want?!?) marked my introduction to Modern era classical music.


I was listening to progressive rock bands like ELP and Yes, talking about odd time signatures. My Father told me about the Rite of Spring and gave me a pocket score for my birthday.


----------



## aleazk

Composing Threni. September 16, 1957


----------



## Xenakiboy

Here is my shortest composer message so far:

Thanks Igor! :tiphat:


----------



## TwoPhotons

Oh Igor, how I love your witty side :lol: :


----------



## Necronomicon

As a heavy metal fan, I often see artists with in the genre cite influence from classical composers, Most often Wagner. But for me the true 'classical godfather' of metal is Igor, the entry of the strings in the rite does not sound misplaced on the most distorted of electric guitar!


----------



## Tchaikov6

Stravinsky Violin Concerto is very underrated.


----------



## PoorSadDrunk

Three Pieces for String Quartet. (if someone hasn't already said)

So short, so sweet, so sensual... so Stravinsky.


----------



## TxllxT

http://rbth.com/arts/music/2016/11/23/valery-gergiev-to-perform-igor-stravinsky-piece-that-was-considered-lost_650211

Lost work of Stravinsky to be performed!


----------



## PoorSadDrunk

http://www.medici.tv/#!/valery-gergiev-stravinsky-chant-funebre

EVERYONE MUST LISTEN

This is the PREMIERE or Stravinsky's lost work "_Funeral Song_

It is being streamed lived from St. Petersburg


----------



## jailhouse

oh it was so good man. I was expecting juvenilia.


----------



## Blancrocher

So irritating to have missed it ... wish someone would upload it to Youtube.

*Edit* As mentioned on another thread, it's now available--they must have taken pity on me after I'd clicked on the expired video a few thousand times.


----------



## GodNickSatan

The Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments and the Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra are two seriously great works that I don't hear enough about.


----------



## David OByrne

My favorite composer, changed my view on classical music completely


----------



## Pugg

PoorSadDrunk said:


> http://www.medici.tv/#!/valery-gergiev-stravinsky-chant-funebre
> 
> EVERYONE MUST LISTEN
> 
> This is the PREMIERE or Stravinsky's lost work "_Funeral Song_
> 
> It is being streamed lived from St. Petersburg


This is really good, thank you for sharing.


----------



## Retyc

Old-Igor is extremely adorable :3


----------



## Armanvd

Seriously I Can't Believe Stravinsky's Thread Is So Quiet ! He's The Most Important and Influential Composer Of 20th Century . I Was Listening To a Commentary About Him Where Bernstein Called Him King Igor  His Rite Of Spring Was One Of The Time Changing Musics Ever Composed ! I Don't Know Where To Start When I Want To Talk About Him.


----------



## starthrower

armanvd said:


> Seriously I Don't Know Where To Start When I Want To Talk About Him.


Rite you are! Stravinsky's ballet scores are one of the greatest bodies of work in classical music.


----------



## Guest

Retyc said:


> Old-Igor is extremely adorable :3


Stravinsky as minimalist.


----------



## chalkpie

I need a Stravinsky binge - maybe when I'm done with Ravel (and some Debussy), but I'm still running strong with little Maurice. I love me some Igor though - that I can tell you.


----------



## millionrainbows

phoenixshade said:


> I don't know how this guy is missing a forum of his own...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me (and I suspect many others), the Leopold Stowkowski arrangement of _The Rite of Spring_ for Walt Disney's _Fantasia_ (accompanied by animated dinosaurs- What more could a kid want?!?) marked my introduction to Modern era classical music.
> 
> For some time, Stravinsky was my favorite composer, and I still hold him in particularly high regard. I daresay that it was _Rite of Spring_ that shook the very foundations of the musical world and pretty much brought about an end to the Romantic era. Certainly, Romantic music continued to be produced, but the political climate of the world and Europe in particular called out for a musical language that was capable of expressing raw turmoil. In emphasizing unusual rhythms (and furthering the unusual harmonies being explored by folk-inspired nationalist composers), Stravinky delivered that idiom, and the musical world hasn't been the same since. Nor did he stop at primitivism- he was a leader, not a follower, at the forefront of later trends in neoclassicism and serialism.
> 
> To this day, and probably for the rest of my life, he will remain on my list of the top composers of all time, in the company of Beethoven, Wagner, and Mozart.


Funny that you should mention dinosaurs, along with Rite. I seem to remember this also, and for me it triggered an archetypal response; as if Rite were tapping-in to some primordial area of the collective unconscious, where Man is ruled by instinct, urge, and drives which we had long since repressed. In this sense, it does musically what Nietzsche, Freud, and Jung did in the area of human psychology; it tapped into a strange frightening area of irrationality and bizarre forces of the psyche.


----------



## Vronsky




----------



## hpowders

Arman said:


> Seriously I Can't Believe Stravinsky's Thread Is So Quiet ! *He's The Most Important and Influential **Composer Of 20th Century *. I Was Listening To a Commentary About Him Where Bernstein Called Him King Igor  His Rite Of Spring Was One Of The Time Changing Musics Ever Composed ! I Don't Know Where To Start When I Want To Talk About Him.


In your opinion.


----------



## Pugg

Arman said:


> Seriously I Can't Believe Stravinsky's Thread Is So Quiet ! He's The Most Important and Influential Composer Of 20th Century . I Was Listening To a Commentary About Him Where Bernstein Called Him King Igor  His Rite Of Spring Was One Of The Time Changing Musics Ever Composed ! I Don't Know Where To Start When I Want To Talk About Him.


Each member has his / hers favourite composer I guess.


----------



## Armanvd

hpowders said:


> In your opinion.


Ofcourse IMO , And Bernstein's Opinios


----------



## Armanvd

Vronsky said:


>


https://archive.org/details/conversationswit00stra

You Can Read The Complete Converstaions Here To


----------



## Armanvd

[video=dailymotion;x33ocaj]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x33ocaj[/video]


----------



## rsikora

I think the Sacrificial Dance goes well with "Greatest Freak Out Ever"






Enjoy!


----------



## Vaneyes

Long-lost *Stravinsky* piece.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cu...from-before-he-made-his-leap-into-the-unknown


----------



## millionrainbows

Ewww, The New Yorker...


----------



## millionrainbows

I'm pleased with this 2-CD set. The sound is overly bright, while at the same time lacking bass, but this can be EQ'd. They say EQ is for compensating speaker deficiencies, but it can be used to EQ source material, especially in this digital era. This recording is early digital. The playing by Michel Beroff is excellent:



The "Petrouchka"suite for solo piano really kicks it. It includes the dizzying arpeggios left out of the orchestral version. This is a much more rhythmically precise, driven version than Pollini's (reviewed elsewhere by me on the Bartok thread) more "sensitive" and soft version. I like Straviinsky to be "machine-like" in this instance (hail Futurism).
Also, a good version of "Mouvements" for piano/orchestra which I only have one other version of, by Richter on Yedang. This one is more icy, clinical, modern, but I like it.


----------



## cougarjuno

I also love the Petrouchka piano version (as well as the orchestral piece). I am not the biggest Stravinsky fan, but his ballets are remarkable. If he wrote nothing else but his ballets he would still be considered one of the world's great composers. I would like to see his Rake's Progress performed -- the most neo-classical of operas. I did see a concert (oratorio) version of Oedipus Rex a few years ago with the NY Phil. Jeremy Irons was the narrator.


----------



## Capeditiea

my favourite work of Stravinsky is currently Song of the Nightingale.


----------



## BiscuityBoyle

Armanvd said:


> Ofcourse IMO , And Bernstein's Opinios


Sviatoslav Richter's too btw


----------



## joen_cph

Good Morning from Igor ....


----------



## BiscuityBoyle

He had such a distinct and striking face that practically every photo of him is great. His insta would've been lit.


----------



## Larkenfield

I couldn't agree more about Igor being photogenic. 
http://www.classicalwcrb.org/post/stravinskys-run-boston-police

But I'm still a fan.

Four-Hand Rite of Spring!


----------



## KenOC

Larkenfield said:


> I couldn't agree more about Igor being photogenic.
> http://www.classicalwcrb.org/post/stravinskys-run-boston-police


At that time Stravinsky was running with a Boston gang, mostly stealing hubcaps but sometimes doing more serious things. Naturally the police roughed him up, just to let him know how they felt about that.

It could have been worse, but one cop on the petty crimes squad that nabbed him was a _Petrouchka _fan, so they went easy on him.


----------



## flamencosketches

Bump for a great composer.

Any fans lately? I have been getting back into the Rite of Spring, and also appreciating the Violin Concerto, the Symphony of Psalms, Song of the Nightingale, and the piano reduction 3 Movements from Petrouchka.

This is also an interesting piece which I am listening to right now:






What are some more great works of Stravinsky that I'm missing out on? I have yet to hear the famous Les Noces or Histoire d'un Soldat. What are some good recordings of each?


----------



## Bourdon

flamencosketches said:


> Bump for a great composer.
> 
> Any fans lately? I have been getting back into the Rite of Spring, and also appreciating the Violin Concerto, the Symphony of Psalms, Song of the Nightingale, and the piano reduction 3 Movements from Petrouchka.
> 
> This is also an interesting piece which I am listening to right now:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are some more great works of Stravinsky that I'm missing out on? I have yet to hear the famous Les Noces or Histoire d'un Soldat. What are some good recordings of each?


Try this one,I like it very much.


----------



## Bourdon

And the ebony concerto


----------



## flamencosketches

Bourdon said:


> Try this one,I like it very much.


I feel like this is the most Stravinskyan thing ever written :lol: Is it part of a larger work?

I listened to the Ebony Concerto the other day. I liked it, but is it supposed to be some kind of critique on jazz? Seems he didn't hold too much regard for the genre.

What are some important works in his so-called Neoclassical period? This is one that I quite like:


----------



## flamencosketches

Loving this late work lately:






... as well as Robert Craft in Stravinsky's works in general. He really got Stravinsky in a way that few others have since.

Another conductor I've been enjoying in Stravinsky is Esa-Pekka Salonen. His Petrouchka is great! I got the CD for dirt cheap. It also includes Orpheus, which I was a little bored by, but I'll revisit.









He is an excellent, currently active conductor. I hope to see him direct a concert some day.

I found also this GREAT CD at a record store for $2:









I highly recommend all of these recordings to any Stravinsky fiends, as I have been lately.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> He is an excellent, currently active conductor. I hope to see him direct a concert some day.


I've seen Salonen live many times (not too hard here in Finland!) and often in Stravinsky-related programmes: _Le sacre du printemps_, _Orpheus_, _Agon_, _Symphonies of Wind Instruments_, _L'oiseau de feu_... Wonderful memories! My most recent experience with him is from a few weeks ago when he was conducting Debussy's _Pelléas et Mélisande_ at the Finnish National Opera.


----------



## flamencosketches

That's badass. How was it?


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> That's badass. How was it?


The Stravinsky concerts were stunning, I particularly remember _Agon_ which in Salonen's hands received a performance that opened my ears to that work unlike any other so far (at the time). As to the Debussy, the performance was exemplary, but unfortunately I was sitting near some rather loud people and couldn't really relax because of that. My silly (but intense) social awkwardness prevented me from saying anything...


----------



## flamencosketches

Wow! Talking through Pelléas et Mélisande is a crime against art. They shoulda been taken out back and shot. I'm sorry to hear that, but glad the Stravinksy was good. Salonen is awesome. One of the best contemporary Stravinsky conductors IMO, and one of the better conductors of our time, period.

I would love to visit Helsinki some day. Is it as great a music city as it seems? Maybe not quite in the league of Berlin, London, New York etc, but it seems like there is quite a bit of classical music per capita.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> I would love to visit Helsinki some day. Is it as great a music city as it seems? Maybe not quite in the league of Berlin, London, New York etc, but it seems like there is quite a bit of classical music per capita.


I'm probably not un-biased enough to comment in a trustworthy manner, but I think Helsinki is an incredible city for music! Symphonic music fares especially well: we have two very good full-time orchestras in the city, and also some smaller ones in the capital region. The opera has been mostly good, but I haven't been there often enough to really make an assessment. The only thing that's missing (in my opinion) is a vibrant solo and chamber music culture: there's probably a lot going on, but I find it a little hard to find. It's not centralized enough, one could say. Whether that's a bad thing is up to anyone to decide...

Visiting Helsinki is not a bad idea at all. 

Next season the Finnish National Opera is starting Wagner's Ring (with _Das Rheingold_ and _Die Walküre_ fitting in the 2019-20 season) and if anyone dares to disrupt that experience I will probably explode.


----------



## flamencosketches

Yeah I definitely need to make it out there at some point. I have long been fascinated with Finland. Sweden and Norway, too, but of course Finnish culture is truly unique among them. I've never set foot in Europe. Some day. 

It looks like the upcoming season for my local orchestra (Atlanta Symphony) is kind of Wagner heavy too. Tristan und Isolde in concert version over 3 nights, and several preludes from other operas of his. Is it some kind of Wagnerversary, 2020? Enjoy that Ring in any case! Who is conducting?


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Enjoy that Ring in any case! Who is conducting?


As it turns out, Salonen! :lol:

I'm definitely looking forward to the _Ring_ since I've never experienced any of it live before. Hope I can secure tickets, I have a feeling it might draw quite a big crowd. If I fail, at least I can celebrate the fact that opera can indeed still have fully sold-out productions!


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> As it turns out, Salonen! :lol:
> 
> I'm definitely looking forward to the _Ring_ since I've never experienced any of it live before. Hope I can secure tickets, I have a feeling it might draw quite a big crowd. If I fail, at least I can celebrate the fact that opera can indeed still have fully sold-out productions!


Yeah! A real win-win :lol:

Looks like the Atlanta Symphony is doing the Rite of Spring too  I have never experienced it live and it's a major favorite of mine.


----------



## Janspe

Listening to _Threni_ and loving it to bits. I've heard it once before in its entirety, but it feels like something "clicked" this time around. Why is the piece so unknown? It's really fantastic. I love late Stravinsky!


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> Listening to _Threni_ and loving it to bits. I've heard it once before in its entirety, but it feels like something "clicked" this time around. Why is the piece so unknown? It's really fantastic. I love late Stravinsky!


Completely unknown to me. Similar at all to his Requiem Canticles, perhaps? I love that piece.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Completely unknown to me. Similar at all to his Requiem Canticles, perhaps? I love that piece.


If you love _Requiem canticles_, I'm sure you'll have no problem delving into _Threni_. That being said, the latter work might seem a bit more austere at first, but it's a really stunning score; definitely worth knowing well.


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## flamencosketches

Noted, I'll check it out!

Late Stravinsky is awesome... the impression I get is that it's the same old Stravinsky, but that he started listening to a lot of Webern and began to draw influence from a different direction. It's amazing that he can write in a completely different idiom without ever losing his own personal character of his music.


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## Rogerx

*June 17th 1882 Igor Stravinsky*


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## Donna Elvira

Happy Birthday!


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## Schwammerl

For me, there are only three great 20th century composers: Britten, Shostakovich and Stravinsky. Schoenberg doesn't make the cut because his music is just not liked enough, and his influence, once thought to be very high, has waned drastically since contemporary music cut free from serialism. Messiaen is too narrow in his range, to my mind. But that is another thread...

Stravinsky has been hugely influential in shaping the course of 20th century music and much of his music is hugely _loved_, and often performed, which is very important. Here are some of my own favourites:

1. The Rite of Spring...what other scores are more influential than this one?...it changed the course of 20th century music.
2. Petrushka, The Firebird. Dazzling, beautiful scores that maintain a very Russian sensibility. 
3. Les Noces. Transforms folk elements in a highly original and moving way into a fantastic sound world. Listen to the end.
4. The Soldier's Tale. Jazz idiom effortlessly combined with modern sensibility 
5. Symphony in 3 movements. Utterly original and convincing
6. Dumbarton Oaks. Neo-classicism made engaging and delightful.
7. Symphony of Psalms. Even non-believers must be moved by this.

I think he easily takes his place in the 20th century "greats". In comparison with Debussy (if we must), it seems to me that he had more range and wrote more, but then he lived much longer.


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## SanAntone

I was surprised that in a recent game, Stravinsky did not do very well. He has always been a composer whose music I found very interesting. I bought the first "large brick" of his complete works and loved just about everything, although the Big Three Ballets have been so often played/recorded I was more interested in the lesser known stuff.

A particular favorite volume of that "shoebox" was the Miniature Masterpieces. _Tango_, _Ragtime_ and other works were so charming. _Symphonies of Wind Instruments_ is another favorite.

_Agon
Duo Concertante
Histoire du soldat suite
Symphony of Psalms
Violin Concerto
Piano & Winds
Requiem Canticles
Apollon musagate
Renard
Mavra
Octet
Mass
Elegy for J.F.K.
Three Songs from William Shakespeare
_

Many, many more.

I certainly consider him among the most important 20th century composers, and I know I listen to his work more than Shostakovich, Bartok and Schoenberg - other candidates for "great composers" of the 20th C. This is not to say that I do not respect those composers, I do, it's just that I am troubled by so many negative comments about Stravinsky.


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## sstucky

One of the greatest of all composers, in the breadth and quality of his works. His own 1960 recordings of Petrushka and the Rite, and the 1946 Symphony in Three Movements with the NYPO, Are marvelous.


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## gregorx

SanAntone said:


> I was surprised that in a recent game, Stravinsky did not do very well. He has always been a composer whose music I found very interesting. I bought the first "large brick" of his complete works and loved just about everything, although the Big Three Ballets have been so often played/recorded I was more interested in the lesser known stuff.
> 
> A particular favorite volume of that "shoebox" was the Miniature Masterpieces. _Tango_, _Ragtime_ and other works were so charming. _Symphonies of Wind Instruments_ is another favorite.
> 
> _Agon
> Duo Concertante
> Histoire du soldat suite
> Symphony of Psalms
> Violin Concerto
> Piano & Winds
> Requiem Canticles
> Apollon musagate
> Renard
> Mavra
> Octet
> Mass
> Elegy for J.F.K.
> Three Songs from William Shakespeare
> _
> 
> Many, many more.
> 
> I certainly consider him among the most important 20th century composers, and I know I listen to his work more than Shostakovich, Bartok and Schoenberg - other candidates for "great composers" of the 20th C. This is not to say that I do not respect those composers, I do, it's just that I am troubled by so many negative comments about Stravinsky.


I've thought the same thing about his lack of support in the games and polls. He might be the most influential composer of at least the first half of the century. I've always thought that he was poorly imitated by film composers who churned out a lot of kitsch. So, maybe some blame Stravinsky for all the bad film scores. Kind of like all the imitators of Mies van der Rohe who didn't understand what he was doing and created what became known, derisively, as the glass box. Mies survived and so has Stravinsky.

A lot of my favorites in your list and, yep, many more.


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## HerbertNorman

SanAntone said:


> I certainly consider him among the most important 20th century composers, and I know I listen to his work more than Shostakovich, Bartok and Schoenberg - other candidates for "great composers" of the 20th C. This is not to say that I do not respect those composers, I do, it's just that I am troubled by so many negative comments about Stravinsky.


I am a fan of Shostakovich' work , but I have to second your opinion about the negative comments. I listened to recordings of his work all evening yesterday and I was impressed yet again... The depth of it is quite impressive... I don't like people who write something off , without having given it a chance... A few of the ones you mentioned have grown on me , like the Piano & winds and the symphony of Psalms.
Major Composer of the 20th century without any doubt


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## mparta

Stravinsky is the only 20th century composer without whom I think the world would have been different (worse, or more to the point, more impoverished, actually)
I would hate to not have Appalachian Spring, the Berg violin Concerto, Prokofiev Three Oranges and Romeo and Juliet, the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra.
But in sum, Stravinsky, soup to nuts.


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## thejewk

Sorted through my folders of music on the computer last night, and came across the Stravinsky pieces in the Pierre Boulez Sony box and the Bach Guild set that was given away a few weeks back unsorted and ignored. This afternoon I listened to Boulez' amazing version of the Scherzo Fantastique, full of life and zing, and now a stunning recording from the 50s of Les Noces by Mario Rossi and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, with slightly rough sound and audible surface noise from what sounds like a vinyl rip, but otherwise terrifyingly direct and relentlessly rhythmical.


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## violadude

Video I made about Stravinsky....just gonna pop this in here.


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## Torkelburger

Very good work, again. I've subscribed. You should work on getting a master's so you can get a teaching position as lecturing seems to come natural to you and seems to be what your heart wants to do. What I like about your videos over other youtubers is your humor, LOL.

Yeah, another good selection here. Can't really go wrong with any 5 pieces of Stravinsky. I love everything he wrote. He is my second favorite composer of all time. Anyway, I'll celebrate the thread, your video, and share my thoughts on The Great One (make yourselves comfortable) with several detailed posts.

What to recommend to the Rite of Spring fanatics? I don't understand their letdown from the other ballets. They don't sound THAT far off the mark to me from the Rite, at least harmonically and melodically. Metrically and rhythmically they're not as jarring, but they're still quite "Stravinskian" nonetheless.

Actually, the piece I would recommend that sounds closest (to me) to the Rite would be the symphonic poem _The Song of the Nightingale_ based on his opera _The Nightingale_, link below. It is also from the Russian Period and to me sounds as what The Rite may have sounded like were it set in China instead of Russia. Instead of setting traditional Russian folk music through the Stravinskian "ringer", he does it with traditional Chinese music. It's a bit lighter than The Rite, of course, but still…there are some moments. The Rite-obsessed should give the whole piece a good listen:






The last thing to say about that is that I'm glad Stravinsky didn't spend his career re-writing The Rite over-and-over again. He would have risked being forgotten or tarnished his reputation. That's like if The Beatles would have kept remaking _Rubber Soul_ over-and-over again. We never would have gotten _Sgt. Pepper's_, the _White Album_, etc. or anything beyond that.

Besides, there are so many copycats, since The Rite inspired just about everything written after, that there are plenty of other pieces to choose from. And it's a good opportunity to introduce them to other *great* composers who weren't necessarily copycats, but who took those Stravinskian ideals from The Rite and took them down different paths. Like Varese, for example. If someone is obsessed with The Rite, I see no reason why they shouldn't give_ Ionisation_, _Arcana_, and _Ameriques_ a try.


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## Torkelburger

...((continued) on the topics in your video))

For "pretty" Stravinsky I'd personally recommend the following piece. All movements are pretty, but especially the second movement-in particular, the variations of the main theme. Excellent piece. Maybe quaint here and there, but pretty moments nonetheless.






Another pretty piece is the following, not well-known or mentioned very often:






Regarding the _Symphony of Psalms_, it is one of my favorite pieces. This piece is very tightly organized and does not really wander from one technique to another as Stravinsky sometimes does. Interestingly, the Salzman book was mentioned in the thread about Schoenberg as a good analysis book. However, in Salzman's book he chose to analyze the first movement of SoP and completely missed the mark about it's inner workings. Salzman's analysis really has to be taken with a grain of salt.
He carried on about how everything stems from a third relation between the e minor and G Major chords, if I remember correctly. He went into quite some detail. But all of that's very trivial. He made no mention at all of the octatonic scale and how about 75% of the piece's harmonies (including polyharmonies), melodies, and ostinatos, come from the scale. There are even measures where the ostinatos are divided up between instruments and so the entire scale appears in every bar. It's very strict as well. No notes appear outside of the scale. Then the rest is based on the E Phrygian mode, but the two scales are not unrelated at all. There are 4 common tones between the two scales (E F G B D) and he uses E and F to sort of modulate between the two. Salzman make no mention of any of that. It is an extremely tightly woven piece.

I'm glad you mentioned Dumbarton Oaks. That piece seems to get a lot of love around here. It could be one of his best to choose from for the Neoclassical Period, because it is short and sweet and so listenable. I remember I first came across it in college for an advanced conducting class and I had never heard of it before. I thought it would be second or third tier Stravinsky, but then when I heard it, I played it over-and-over again and soon realized there probably isn't such a thing as second or third tier Stravinsky (at least in my estimation). One of my other personal favorites in the Neoclassical Period is the Concerto in D for strings, Oedipus Rex, and the Symphony in C (of course).


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## Torkelburger

Stravinsky doesn't ever seem to really get recognized for his piano music. It's a shame as there are some really fine pieces. Not just the piano sonata, but the _Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra_ and _Movements for Piano and Orchestra_ as well. While it doesn't necessarily have the amount of pianism, I guess, as the Debussy oeuvre (as mentioned in the Debussy thread), it is worth mentioning that he did actually kind of do his own thing and pioneer in some ways 20th century writing, I think.

The _Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments_ is worth mentioning. It is quite often overlooked and never mentioned by anyone among the great pieces in the repertoire. Maybe it's not as good as Prokofiev and Shostakovich and Bartok, and certainly Rachmaninov, but it should be considered a seminal piece in the genre. If for nothing but the sheer fact it changed the way we view the instrument and how PCs were written thereafter.

What I mean is that Stravinsky's approach in the piece was to write for the piano as it is technically defined categorically-as a *percussion* instrument (because the strings are struck with hammers). I guess one could argue that there are moments in Shostakovich that are "percussive" sounding, etc. but not to the extent that we have in Stravinsky with extended passages of thick Stravinskian blocked chords in Stravinskian changing meters and jarring rhythms that give the effect of 20th century primitiveness. I think it was a really unique concerto.

It's very difficult to choose a serial piece to study. They are all so great. It has been my favorite period of his for a very long time now. And his serial pieces are all so vastly different. I think he got better with the style as he progressed and got more comfortable with it. I think he always felt "late to the party" so to speak, but really I think the timing was perfect. I think his serial pieces show the sophistication and experience of years of compositional mastery that may not have been there if he had adopted it earlier. What is so interesting is how he adapted the technique to his own style in almost countless ways, too many to mention in a single post (the things he did with repeating notes, with "modulation", with not using full 12-tone rows in some pieces, the Stravinskian rhythms and orchestration, etc., etc. etc.). I may have chosen _Threni_ over _Agon_, but that is my personal preference.


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## starthrower

> What I like about your videos over other youtubers is your humor, LOL.


I love the humor too! But taking too much time to get to the subject at hand will most likely limit your audience. Presenting an edited version with a link for the full video may be a better idea.


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## Torkelburger

starthrower said:


> I love the humor too! But taking too much time to get to the subject at hand will most likely limit your audience. Presenting an edited version with a link for the full video may be a better idea.


Yes, I thought about mentioning that...specifically that it took awhile to get going and to the point at times. But didn't want to be too negative. Just wanted to be supportive. On a similar note...

Other youtubers on these subjects dress up a bit nicer (like Andreyev and Belkin) and they have better lighting. And their dwellings are a bit more cheerful and academic looking/or just "homier". Violadude may want to make us feel more welcome by not having us feel like we are in a freshman's dorm-room (sorry for sounding insulting). Put some art prints, or photos, or artwork (even original), or paint, on the walls...and have plants or bookshelves. Nitpicking and negative...I know...but just saying...elaborating on starthrower's critiques a little.


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## tdc

Torkelburger said:


> I'm glad you mentioned *Dumbarton Oaks*. That piece seems to get a lot of love around here. It could be one of his best to choose from for the Neoclassical Period, because it is *short and sweet and so listenable*.


Yes, but at the same time some really strange harmonic twists that make the work rewarding on repeated listens. The way the first movement concludes for example, and the middle section of the second movement. I haven't analyzed what is going on with those (apparent) modulations, but the music seems to go to unexpected and fresh regions. The last movement I like for its driving rhythm and textural/timbral changes. An excellent work!

Not sure if any of that was already mentioned in the dude's video above which I haven't had a chance to watch, but good to see him back around these parts. Thanks Torkelburger for your insights as well.


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## tdc

starthrower said:


> I love the humor too! But taking too much time to get to the subject at hand will most likely limit your audience. Presenting an edited version with a link for the full video may be a better idea.


Another option is breaking it up into shorter videos. When I saw how long the video was I wasn't able to take the time to watch it. (Although I caught some of the humor at the start). In the above video he analyzes 5 Stravinsky pieces, I suspect he would get more views if he broke it into separate videos for each work.


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## Chatellerault

Torkelburger said:


> Stravinsky doesn't ever seem to really get recognized for his piano music. [...]
> The _Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments_ is worth mentioning. It is quite often overlooked and never mentioned by anyone among the great pieces in the repertoire. Maybe it's not as good as Prokofiev and Shostakovich and Bartok, and certainly Rachmaninov, but it should be considered a seminal piece in the genre. If for nothing but the sheer fact it changed the way we view the instrument and how PCs were written thereafter.
> 
> What I mean is that Stravinsky's approach in the piece was to write for the piano as it is technically defined categorically-as a *percussion* instrument (because the strings are struck with hammers).


You are absolutely right, at least when you mention Bartók. I add some interesting quotations below that perhaps you didn't know of.
And still, in my opinion the greatest Piano Concertos in the 20th Century are the ones by Bartók and Prokofiev. But I'll never deny Stravinsky's influence on Bartók's piano music. His influence over Prokofiev I'm not sure of and I believe Stravinsky is much less present in the music of Shostakovich and Rach.

_Stravinsky's Concerto for Piano and Winds alongside Bartok's First Concerto [...] would have been the most ear-opening juxtaposition of all. The concertos were composed two years apart, Bartok's under the strong impression not only of Stravinsky's score but also of Stravinsky's performance of it as pianist in Budapest in March 1926. As the Bartok scholar David Schneider has recently demonstrated in fascinating detail, Bartok found Stravinsky's work at once irresistible and repellent. The tension this ambivalent reaction created in him was one of the most powerful stimulants he ever received. It roused him from a three-year creative block and led him to his maturest style._
(Richard Taruskin, 1998, NY Times)

_Bartók composed Out of Doors in the 'piano year' of 1926, together with his Piano Sonata, his First Piano Concerto, and Nine Little Pieces. This particularly fruitful year followed a period of little compositional activity. The main trigger to start composing again was Bartók's attendance on 15 March 1926 of a performance of Stravinsky's Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments (and Le Rossignol and Petrushka) in Budapest with the composer as pianist. This piece and Bartók's compositions of 1926 are marked by the treatment of the piano as a percussion instrument. Bartók wrote in early 1927:

"It seems to me that the inherent nature [of the piano tone] becomes really expressive only by means of the present tendency to use the piano as a percussion instrument."_
(Wikipedia)


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## Torkelburger

Chatellerault said:


> You are absolutely right, at least when you mention Bartók. I add some interesting quotations below that perhaps you didn't know of.
> And still, in my opinion the greatest Piano Concertos in the 20th Century are the ones by Bartók and Prokofiev. But I'll never deny Stravinsky's influence on Bartók's piano music. His influence over Prokofiev I'm not sure of and I believe Stravinsky is much less present in the music of Shostakovich and Rach.
> 
> _Stravinsky's Concerto for Piano and Winds alongside Bartok's First Concerto [...] would have been the most ear-opening juxtaposition of all. The concertos were composed two years apart, Bartok's under the strong impression not only of Stravinsky's score but also of Stravinsky's performance of it as pianist in Budapest in March 1926. As the Bartok scholar David Schneider has recently demonstrated in fascinating detail, Bartok found Stravinsky's work at once irresistible and repellent. The tension this ambivalent reaction created in him was one of the most powerful stimulants he ever received. It roused him from a three-year creative block and led him to his maturest style._
> (Richard Taruskin, 1998, NY Times)
> 
> _Bartók composed Out of Doors in the 'piano year' of 1926, together with his Piano Sonata, his First Piano Concerto, and Nine Little Pieces. This particularly fruitful year followed a period of little compositional activity. The main trigger to start composing again was Bartók's attendance on 15 March 1926 of a performance of Stravinsky's Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments (and Le Rossignol and Petrushka) in Budapest with the composer as pianist. This piece and Bartók's compositions of 1926 are marked by the treatment of the piano as a percussion instrument. Bartók wrote in early 1927:
> 
> "It seems to me that the inherent nature [of the piano tone] becomes really expressive only by means of the present tendency to use the piano as a percussion instrument."_
> (Wikipedia)


Thank you so much for bringing all of that to my attention! Great to know!

Yes, I see the influence on Bartok and not much on the other big names we've mentioned. Some of my other favorites of the Stravinskian "percussive" piano concerto style would be Lutoslawski and Corigliano.


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## violadude

Thank you all for your input on my video. It's exactly what I was looking for when I posted these videos here.

Yes I too was kind of unhappy with the length the videos turned out and how long it took me to get my point across. I'm working on various ways I can restructure that. Part of the reason is that one of the first people I show these videos to are my parents and they know very little about music, so when I think about how I want to say what I'm trying to say I often have them in mind as test subjects and that sometimes leads to over explaining myself. Lately I've been thinking about dropping the top five lists and focusing in on one specific piece per video. We'll see what I come up with. 

I'm also a bit unsatisfied with the top 5 lists because I feel so much pressure to sum up and showcase all aspects of a composer like Stravinsky in just 5 pieces which just feels impossible sometimes! I think I'll definitely be dropping that as a format.

I've also thought about having a specific topic I want to talk about and weaving various musical examples from various sources and eras to support the topic, a sort of essay style that creators like "David Bruce Composer" does. I really love his videos but I'm not so good yet at weaving a narrative like that. I tried writing a script about listening to "layers" in the musical texture that maybe the average person doesn't think about too often but then I ended up just showing a bunch of examples of different ways composers use musical layers but then I thought, "well, what's the bigger point here that I'm trying to make? Just that music has layers?" That's kinda obvious I guess. I'm struggling to come up with a meaningful topic that doesn't just boil down to "Hey guys, here's some music I really like and I want to show it off". Maybe that's not a bad thing though. But I'm sure all these things will come with practice.

As for the setting, ya I'd like to get a better setting perhaps. I don't have a real camera at the moment (just using the laptop built in webcam) and I live in a studio apartment with my wife, so any decorations would have to be approved by her first haha. I don't have my own little space that I can do whatever I want with. I tried to remedy that by putting a picture of the composer I am talking about on the tv behind me but it's not so noticeable.


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## jegreenwood

Torkelburger said:


> Stravinsky doesn't ever seem to really get recognized for his piano music. It's a shame as there are some really fine pieces. Not just the piano sonata, but the _Capriccio for Piano and Orchestra_ and _Movements for Piano and Orchestra_ as well.
> . . . .


I discovered both pieces plus a number of other Stravinsky works at the ballet. In particular, the _Capriccio_ is part of one of Balanchine's most popular works - _Rubies_ from _Jewels_.

Stravinsky and Balanchine were friends. Balanchine commissioned three works by Stravinsky, but he also choreographed quite a few other pieces. (Although not _Rite_ or _Petrouchka_ to my knowledge - at least they are not included in NYCB's repertoire.)

In 1972 Balanchine and the NYCB mounted the Stravinsky Festival. Here's a brief description from Wikipedia:

In 1972, Balanchine offered an eight-day tribute to the composer, his great collaborator, who had died the year before. His programs included twenty-two new works of his own dances, plus works by choreographers Todd Bolender, John Clifford, Lorca Massine, Jerome Robbins, Richard Tanner, and John Taras, as well as repertory ballets by Balanchine and Robbins. Balanchine created Symphony in Three Movements, Duo Concertant, and Violin Concerto for the occasion. He and Robbins co-choreographed and performed in Pulcinella.


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## tdc

I'm currently listening to _The Rake's Progress_ (Gardiner/LSO). On one hand I can see why some post WWII musicians found this work a little tame, on the other I'm marveling at it's construction. I like hearing some harpsichord in there.

The lack of enthusiasm around this work caused Stravinsky to weep and was part of the reason he decided to change musical directions and move towards serialism.


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## Enthusiast

^ And made him very jealous of Britten! But, yes, it is a fine opera. His own recording is the one I return to the most.


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## Neo Romanza

tdc said:


> I'm currently listening to _The Rake's Progress_ (Gardiner/LSO). On one hand I can see why some post WWII musicians found this work a little tame, on the other I'm marveling at it's construction. I like hearing some harpsichord in there.
> 
> The lack of enthusiasm around this work caused Stravinsky to weep and was part of the reason he decided to change musical directions and move towards serialism.


I certainly can understand the lack of enthusiasm for _The Rake's Progress_. While I do believe the work contains some interesting parts, on the whole, it is uninteresting and I've never felt the urge to revisit it.


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## Neo Romanza

Enthusiast said:


> ^ And made him very jealous of Britten! But, yes, it is a fine opera. His own recording is the one I return to the most.


Stravinsky had little reverence for a lot of composers, so Britten is just one of many added to his list of composers he felt no affinity towards. Interestingly enough, he had high esteem for Hindemith who he called "a genius". I'm rather in agreement with him here as I do believe he's a brilliant composer.


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## elgar's ghost

tdc said:


> I'm currently listening to _The Rake's Progress_ (Gardiner/LSO). On one hand I can see why some post WWII musicians found this work a little tame, on the other I'm marveling at it's construction. I like hearing some harpsichord in there.
> 
> The lack of enthusiasm around this work caused Stravinsky to weep and was part of the reason he decided to change musical directions and move towards serialism.


With the exception of _Billy Budd_ (which could be considered more of a _succès d'estime_ anyway), were there actually any real smash-hit operas composed during the early 1950s?


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## SanAntone

I don't think it can be proven that it was the response to _The Rake's Progress _that drove Stravinsky to embrace a new style. My guess is the death of Schoenberg was a catalyst, as well as, the advocacy for years by Robert Craft. My reading about Stravinsky's late period shows him to have been a serious student of the serial method, first getting instruction from a small book by *Ernst Krenek*, _Studies in Counterpoint: Based on the Twelve-Tone Technique_.

But as with all his stylistic periods, Stravinsky developed a unique approach after a few initial works. This was his style for the remainder of his life.

I think he abandoned the neoclassical style because he had used it up, after more than two decades.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I love _The Rake's Progress_. It is sparsely but very cleverly orchestrated, it has a great mix of tunefulness and spikiness, and the story is a fun spoof on a medieval morality play. It helps a lot that Stravinsky had W.H. Auden, one of the finest poets of his day, to craft the libretto, which is perhaps one of the most subtle and literate of all opera libretti. The Chailly recording seems definitive to me.

Other than the ballets, my favorite genre of Stravinsky's work is his choral music. Symphony of Psalms, Requiem Canticles, Canticum Sacrum, and Threni all blend austere reverence with deep feeling in a way matched by few other composers of sacred works in the century.


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## tdc

SanAntone said:


> I don't think it can be proven that it was the response to _The Rake's Progress _that drove Stravinsky to embrace a new style. My guess is the death of Schoenberg was a catalyst, as well as, the advocacy for years by Robert Craft. My reading about Stravinsky's late period shows him to have been a serious student of the serial method, first getting instruction from a small book by *Ernst Krenek*, _Studies in Counterpoint: Based on the Twelve-Tone Technique_.
> 
> But as with all his stylistic periods, Stravinsky developed a unique approach after a few initial works. This was his style for the remainder of his life.
> 
> I think he abandoned the neoclassical style because he had used it up, after more than two decades.


To be clear I did not say the response to _The Rake's Progress_ is what drove Stravinsky to serialism, I said it was 'part of the reason', I agree with the the other reasons you have clarified. I think your last point is related to the response to _The Rake's Progress_.


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## tdc

Neo Romanza said:


> I certainly can understand the lack of enthusiasm for _The Rake's Progress_. While I do believe the work contains some interesting parts, on the whole, it is uninteresting and I've never felt the urge to revisit it.


Yes, but, you lean towards romantic music, no? How many pre-Beethoven composers do you listen to regularly? How many neo-classical works are among your very favorite works?

I think _The Rakes Progress_ is among the best operas I've listened to.


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## Enthusiast

Neo Romanza said:


> I certainly can understand the lack of enthusiasm for _The Rake's Progress_. While I do believe the work contains some interesting parts, on the whole, it is uninteresting and I've never felt the urge to revisit it.


I can't! It is filled with very strong music of Stravinsky's neoclassical style (pick any half hour from it and you will hear music as wonderful as the Symphony in 3 Movements, Apollo, etc. Of course, if you don't really like the bulk of Stravinsky's music it will seem a bore! But if you do, I wonder if you have heard a decent recording of it.


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## Enthusiast

tdc said:


> To be clear I did not say the response to _The Rake's Progress_ is what drove Stravinsky to serialism, I said it was 'part of the reason', I agree with the the other reasons you have clarified. I think your last point is related to the response to _The Rake's Progress_.


But I hear in your words (perhaps wrongly) that you feel it was a bad turn for him. I see it more as (yet another) stroke of genius!


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## elgar's ghost

It can be argued that _The Rake's Progress_ was the logical culmination of Stravinsky's neoclassical adventures, whether he intended it to be or not. I genuinely like Stravinsky's neoclassicism but by then he probably had been at it long enough - had the opera been a runaway success perhaps he still needed that change of direction while there was still time?


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## tdc

Enthusiast said:


> But I hear in your words (perhaps wrongly) that you feel it was a bad turn for him. I see it more as (yet another) stroke of genius!


I think the timing of when the work was released was not optimal, its like there was something in the air after the war. Its easy to see that in retrospect but not necessarily at the time. I don't think it was a bad turn really. I see it as just part of being a composer sometimes, especially ones that are around for a long time. Fashions change and there were moments for Bach and Beethoven when they were out of fashion too. But now the works they composed during those times (their late works) are widely acknowledged as great.


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## tdc

elgars ghost said:


> It can be argued that _The Rake's Progress_ was the logical culmination of Stravinsky's neoclassical adventures, whether he intended it to be or not. I genuinely like Stravinsky's neoclassicism but by then he probably had been at it long enough - had the opera been a runaway success perhaps he still needed that change of direction while there was still time?


I agree that whether or not the opera was a success a change of style was the right decision. Stravinsky was among the most versatile composers, so I think it was the right move to take advantage of those rare chameleon-like abilities and continue to expand stylistically and enrich his body of work.


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## SanAntone

elgars ghost said:


> It can be argued that _The Rake's Progress_ was the logical culmination of Stravinsky's neoclassical adventures, whether he intended it to be or not. I genuinely like Stravinsky's neoclassicism but by then he probably had been at it long enough - had the opera been a runaway success perhaps he still needed that change of direction while there was still time?


I do not hear a clean break between the neoclassical period and his late works. Despite the change in harmonic and melodic content, rhythmically he continued with the same style that one hears in his neoclassical works. I think this is what makes Stravinsky' use of serialism distinctive. There is never any doubt as to who wrote the music, it is Stravinskian through and through.


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## tdc

^ Its true Stravinsky often mixed different styles together. I haven't listened to all his works yet, but some of them I've heard before and didn't know until lately they were part of his 'serial' period. Like _Requiem Canticles_.


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## SanAntone

tdc said:


> ^ Its true Stravinsky often mixed different styles together. I haven't listened to all his works yet, but some of them I've heard before and didn't know until lately they were part of his 'serial' period. Like _Requiem Canticles_.


_Agon_, to me, sounds much like his neoclassical period, and is also a modified serial work. He used both a 17-note series as well as the traditional 12-tone series.


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## Neo Romanza

tdc said:


> Yes, but, you lean towards romantic music, no? How many pre-Beethoven composers do you listen to regularly? How many neo-classical works are among your very favorite works?
> 
> I think _The Rakes Progress_ is among the best operas I've listened to.


What composers I listen to has no bearing on my opinion of _The Rake's Progress_. I like Stravinsky's Neoclassical period, but I didn't feel a strong affinity for this opera. Oh well. We like what we like.


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## Neo Romanza

Enthusiast said:


> I can't! It is filled with very strong music of Stravinsky's neoclassical style (pick any half hour from it and you will hear music as wonderful as the Symphony in 3 Movements, Apollo, etc. Of course, if you don't really like the bulk of Stravinsky's music it will seem a bore! But if you do, I wonder if you have heard a decent recording of it.


I love Stravinsky's Neoclassical period. I'm a HUGE fan of Stravinsky, but this opera just never did it for me. One can't like everything one hears and, yes, I've heard several "decent" performances of it.  The Gardiner is probably my favorite performance overall. I like some operas, but, overall, I'm not drawn to the genre like I am ballets, chamber music, symphonies, concerti, solo piano music, etc. As I said before, I think there are some interesting parts in _The Rake's Progress_, but it's not a work I get the urge to listen to when I want to listen to some Stravinsky.


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## Enthusiast

^ I thought it would be Gardiner! It puts me to sleep, too.


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## Neo Romanza

Enthusiast said:


> ^ I thought it would be Gardiner! It puts me to sleep, too.


Okay, well I've heard the Stravinsky-led 1964 performance as well. I was still put to sleep!


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## SanAntone

All this talk about _The Rake's Progress _makes me want to listen to it.


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## hammeredklavier

tdc said:


> The lack of enthusiasm around this work caused Stravinsky to weep and was part of the reason he decided to change musical directions and move towards serialism.


What an emo.......


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## tdc

Listened to some of the piano music today, some of which sounded jazzier than I expected. Really enjoyed the Piano Sonata and the Sonata for 2 Pianos.

Next up is an orchestral suite extracted from _The Fairies Kiss_.


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## Enthusiast

^ Isn't that 2 piano sonata wonderful?


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## Neo Romanza

tdc said:


> Listened to some of the piano music today, some of which sounded jazzier than I expected. Really enjoyed the Piano Sonata and the Sonata for 2 Pianos.
> 
> Next up is an orchestral suite extracted from _The Fairies Kiss_.


Why don't you just listen to the complete ballet of _The Fairy's Kiss_? And, yes, the piano music is top-drawer. Love it.


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## Neo Romanza

hammeredklavier said:


> What an emo.......


Emo? Are you in fourth grade? If you don't want to add to the ongoing discussion, then maybe you shouldn't post in this thread.


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## tdc

Neo Romanza said:


> Why don't you just listen to the complete ballet of _The Fairy's Kiss_? And, yes, the piano music is top-drawer. Love it.


Oh, I'll get to it, I'm listening to everything, just not in a very systematic way. I like to listen to new music kind of like a leaf blowing in the wind, if a work catches my eye or just happens to come up next on my playlist I feel it is serendipity and I listen to it first.


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## tdc

Torkelburger said:


> Stravinsky doesn't ever seem to really get recognized for his piano music. It's a shame as there are some really fine pieces...
> 
> The _Concerto for Piano and Wind Instruments_ is worth mentioning. It is quite often overlooked and never mentioned by anyone among the great pieces in the repertoire. Maybe it's not as good as Prokofiev and Shostakovich and Bartok, and certainly Rachmaninov, but it should be considered a seminal piece in the genre. If for nothing but the sheer fact it changed the way we view the instrument and how PCs were written thereafter.


I'm further along in my Stravinsky listening and I think you've made some fine points here. Listening to the harmonies at the beginning of the _Concerto for Piano and Winds_ I hear a strong resemblance to Bartok's PC no. 1* (composed a couple of years after). Clearly an influential work.

I really like the concerto, for me it holds its own against the other PC's you mentioned. At least close.

*The chord that occurs approximately 5 seconds into Stravinsky's _Concerto for Piano and Winds_, sounds just like the chord that occurs at approximately 11 seconds into the first Bartok PC.


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## tdc

I really like Stravinsky's songs, and don't see them mentioned much, and the _Septet_ is outstanding. He has a lot of little works that are great. Like _Tres Sacrae Canciones_, _Epitaphium_ and _Circus Polka_ just to name a few. There are still quite a few works to go before I've listened to all of them.


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## Torkelburger

tdc said:


> I'm further along in my Stravinsky listening and I think you've made some fine points here. Listening to the harmonies at the beginning of the _Concerto for Piano and Winds_ I hear a strong resemblance to Bartok's PC no. 1* (composed a couple of years after). Clearly an influential work.
> 
> I really like the concerto, for me it holds its own against the other PC's you mentioned. At least close.
> 
> *The chord that occurs approximately 5 seconds into Stravinsky's _Concerto for Piano and Winds_, sounds just like the chord that occurs at approximately 11 seconds into the first Bartok PC.


Very interesting and good catch! I hadn't noticed that before. Good ear. So glad you enjoy it!


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## tdc

May be coincidental on this one but the intro to Stravinsky's _Babel_ sounds similar to the intro of Shostakovich symphony no. 10 to me. The Stravinsky piece was composed about 9 years earlier.


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## tdc

A few other Stravinsky works outside of what I frequently see mentioned here that I really enjoyed listening to after going through all his music were _Ode_, _Eight Instrumental Miniatures_ and _Japanese Lyrics_.

Serialism is possibly my least favorite stylistic trend in classical music history, so not surprisingly his late period works were not my favorite in particular, but I will say that through his blending serialism in his own unique way I found much of the late stuff listenable and some pretty good, my favorite piece of his in this vein possibly being the _Variations for Orchestra_.

(I don't consider the Septet serial, more highly chromatic).


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## Neo Romanza

tdc said:


> A few other Stravinsky works outside of what I frequently see mentioned here that I really enjoyed listening to after going through all his music were _Ode_, _Eight Instrumental Miniatures_ and _Japanese Lyrics_.
> 
> Serialism is possibly my least favorite stylistic trend in classical music history, so not surprisingly his late period works were not my favorite in particular, but I will say that through his blending serialism in his own unique way I found much of the late stuff listenable and some pretty good, my favorite piece of his in this vein possibly being the _Variations for Orchestra_.
> 
> (I don't consider the Septet serial, more highly chromatic).


There are several gems of his late output for me: _Requiem Canticles_, _Agon_, _Huxley Variations_, _Threni_ and _In Memoriam Dylan Thomas_.


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