# Works that are "framed"



## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

This is kind of an odd request--but I'm looking for works of classical music that begin and end with the same music. It is either identical or very similar.

The main example I can think of is _Carmina Burana_ by Carl Orff. Begins and ends with "O Fortuna", no difference other than a gong at the beginning of the second iteration.

Another example is Beethoven's _Egmont, incidental music, Op. 84_. The overture and the finale both conclude with the same music, although it's not as exact as Carmina Burana.

Any other examples of classical works that are "framed" with the same music or very similar music?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Starting with the obvious -- Goldberg Variations. Ditto the last movement of Beethoven's Op. 109 piano sonata.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

_Goldberg Variations_ is a great example--should have thought of that, thanks 

And I didn't know about the Piano Sonata No. 30--I will have to give that another listen.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Not so fast! Properly performed, the opening aria of the Goldberg Variations is performed with both repeats, but at the end it is performed with neither of the repeats.

The ending version of the aria should take half the time to play as the opening version of the aria.

Therefore, note for note, the final and beginning versions of the aria are not the same.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Not so fast! Properly performed, the opening aria of the Goldberg Variation is taken with repeats but at the end, it is not.
> 
> Therefore, it is not and should not be the same exact notes as the aria as originally played.


Quibbelicious! :lol: .........................................


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Rules B Rules.

Lucky I was here to intercept.

Sorry if you feel that I framed you.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Mozart's Requiem, although it probably was not his intention, and the repeat is not literal since different words are sung and some material is cut. It still does count, though.


Best regards, Dr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So, he finally got around to finishing it?


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Yes, Mozart's _Requiem_ does count. Good example 

Also, Bach's _Magnificat_.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So it counts when somebody else finishes a composition by quoting what the deceased already composed at the beginning because he doesn't possess the genius to finish it in a satisfactory manner and takes the easy way out?

Just keep in mind, Mozart did not frame his Requiem.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Sibelius Symphony No.1


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_The Ring of the Nibelung_ by Anna Russell


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

These don't have literally identical 'frames,' but the initial idea or ideas come back in the coda in obvious ways, more or less:

Brahms Symphony #3
Nielsen Symphony #4 "Inextinguishable"
Elgar Cello Concerto
Berg String Quartet, Op. 3
Bartok String Quartet #4
Janacek Sinfonietta
Britten Variations on a theme of Frank Bridge (many variation type works do this, of course)


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Sorry no examples here, I only know of a couple already mentioned. But I have a related question. 

Have any serialists composed a palindrome?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

senza sordino said:


> Sorry no examples here, I only know of a couple already mentioned. But I have a related question.
> 
> Have any serialists composed a palindrome?


Alban Berg ~ Lulu, there is a palindromic 'hinge' -- called here 'mirror point,' which I believe is about exactly mid-point of the opera, the scoring where the film runs. (I'm thinking the segment running with the film is 'complete' and the palindrome is of that segment only, not the entire Opera.)








Of course, a musical palindrome is a full and exact retrograde, which is anything but 'new.'
Guillaume de Machaut (14th century) ~ _Ma fin est mon commencement_ (My end is my beginning.) 





There are groups, or series of them in Stravinsky's _Cantata_; IV ~ _Tomorrow shall be my dancing day_.
These are more rightly 'crab-cancrizans' i.e. canonic, with the initial material then running directly to retrograde i.e. the exact and complete retrograde following.




The work, too, is "Framed" by the same music, beginning and concluding the work, of _A lyke-wake dirge._ However, the subsequent verses are also interpolated as interludes between each of the movements.
I. A lyke-wake dirge. Versus 1. Prelude -- This ae nighte
II. Ricercar I. The maidens came
III. A lyke-wake dirge. Versus 2. First interlude -- If ever you gav'st hos'n and shoon
IV. Ricercar II. Sacred History. To-morrow shall be my dancing day
V. A lyke-wake dirge. Versus 3. Second interlude -- From Whinnymuir when thou may'st pass
VI. Westron Wind
VII. A lyke-wake dirge. Versus 4. Postlude -- If ever thou gav'st meat or drink

Messaien's 'non-retrogradable rhythms' are self-contained musical palindromes. (if my recall is correct, at least one of the ten movements of the _Turangalîla Symphony_ is a complete palindrome.)

Then there is the opening four minutes or so long Eb orchestrated chord and the beginning music of the Rhinemaidens which begins and ends Wagner's _Der Ring des Nibelungen_, that is if you want to wait around for about sixteen hours for _that_ to happen


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I have a feeling that Schubert's second piano trio does this


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Wouldn't virtually all pieces composed in ternary form qualify?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ternary_form


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I immediately thought of Stravinsky's _Agon_.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Sid James said:


> These don't have literally identical 'frames,' but the initial idea or ideas come back in the coda in obvious ways, more or less ...


In this sense, I would add the opening movement of Mendelssohn's 3rd.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I forgot Hindemith's tiny 12 minute long opera _Hin und zurück_ (There and Back Again.)
Wiki, bless them, mentions that the singers lines go up to the midpoint, then all run backwards to the beginning, but that only is mentioning the text while failing to mention the little fact the music does the same... the piece is a forward/retrograde palindrome, then 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hin_und_zur%C3%BCck


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Alban Berg ~ Lulu, there is a palindromic 'hinge' -- called here 'mirror point,' which I believe is about exactly mid-point of the opera, the scoring where the film runs. (I'm thinking the segment running with the film is 'complete' and the palindrome is of that segment only, not the entire Opera.)
> View attachment 39413


Actually, there are intentional thematic (both in the music and libretto) palindromes woven throughout (every act ends with the same rhythm). The orchestration of the complete third act was particularly easy because all of the music had appeared earlier in the opera, as all of Lulu's "clients" at the end are mirrors of her lovers earlier on.

But yes, the central film scene is a complete and perfect palindrome.

Here's the music, performed as the second movement of the Lulu Suite.





Berg loved palindromes, and all of his late works have some central turning point or other. With the chamber concerto, there are those low notes in the piano as everything else comes to a brief halt. With the Violin Concerto, the tempos are symmetrical: Adagio-Allegro-Allegro-Adagio.

Der Wein, though, fits the "frame" concept very well. It basically ends just as it begins, in addition to turning around a symmetrical axis.

Another "framed" work that I can remember off the top of my head is Stravinsky's short TV opera "The Flood" (based on the Bible's Noah story).


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## Norse (May 10, 2010)

Prokofiev's five movement _Sinfonietta_. Not that the outer movements are identical, that would be weird for this kind of work. The last movement starts out like a re-orchestrated version of the first one, and in addition to the theme, it's otherwise similar in length, tempo and expression.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

How could I forget? The final movement of Stravinsky's Canticum Sacrum is the first movement in retrograde...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> How could I forget? The final movement of Stravinsky's Canticum Sacrum is the first movement in retrograde...


Prize-winner! Bookend and Palindrome


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I just finished listening to Prokofiev Lt Kije. The funeral repeats themes, and the very end trumpet solo bookends the opening notes of the birth of Kije.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Because I just listened to it, the Overture to a Midsummer Night's Dream begins and ends with the same chords. They also appear in the middle of the piece, too. Sorry if someone else already mentioned it.


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## Whistler Fred (Feb 6, 2014)

George Crumb's *I Por qué nací entre espejos?* from Madrigals, Book 4 is a palindrome, framed by the same opening and closing chords. Well, the song is about mirrors...


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Whistler Fred said:


> George Crumb's *I Por qué nací entre espejos?* from Madrigals, Book 4 is a palindrome, framed by the same opening and closing chords. Well, the song is about mirrors...


*Why was I born between mirrors?*


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

A couple more:

*Vaughan Williams* Symphony # 4 definitely (and I think #2 as well, possibly?)

*Ross Edwards* Maninyas - Concerto for violin & orch. (just listened to it, my thoughts here)



Mahlerian said:


> How could I forget? The final movement of Stravinsky's Canticum Sacrum is the first movement in retrograde...


Isn't structure of that piece based on the structure of St Mark's Venice where it was premiered? I read about it recently somewhere. Five domes = five movements provide the basic framework, if my memory is right.


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## techniquest (Aug 3, 2012)

Respighi "The Birds": you get two sets of frames - the first movement frames itself while the whole work is framed by that first movement main theme.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Sid James said:


> Isn't structure of that piece based on the structure of St Mark's Venice where it was premiered? I read about it recently somewhere. Five domes = five movements provide the basic framework, if my memory is right.


Yep. Ironically, St. Mark's proved not to be a very ideal location for the premiere, which was an unmitigated disaster on all counts.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Another to add:
Pierre Mercure ~ triphtyque (1959)





The third movement is a retrograde of the first movement, mirror / retrograde.


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