# Best Conducting You Have Ever Seen?



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

*For me, the master, Bruckner Symphony No.8 Herbert Von Karajan: *


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Klassic said:


> *For me, the master, Bruckner Symphony No.8 Herbert Von Karajan: *


It's not about the conductor, it always has to be the composer .
But then again, Bernstein beats Karajan in pathos, any day of the week :tiphat:


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Live or video? or both?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I don't consider conducting a thing to be seen.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I don't consider conducting a thing to be seen.


But the thought would tend to explain why Gustavo Dudamel has a job, I guess.


----------



## kartikeys (Mar 16, 2013)

Among the fine translations: Kleiber Carlos Beethoven's seventh.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dudamel isn't really so interesting to watch - nothing compared to Bernstein, who was fascinating with the sound turned off. I think Gustavo has gotten far on personality. Apparently people love him. He isn't a great conductor, for sure, but he's still young.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Dudamel isn't really so interesting to watch - nothing compared to Bernstein, who was fascinating with the sound turned off. I think Gustavo has gotten far on personality. Apparently people love him. He isn't a great conductor, for sure, but he's still young.


Gustavo Dudamel won the Gustav Mahler Conducting Prize in Germany as early as 2004. He made his debut at La Scala with Don Giovanni two years later. He doesn't have many recordings, but the ones I've seen have been very favorably reviewed.

Don't know about his personality because I've never met him. But people around here seem pretty happy with him, and the orchestra likes him as well. His concerts that I've attended have been excellent. And he keeps the house full.

The LA Phil board likes him well enough that he is now contracted into the next decade, and will have a tenure longer than Bernstein's in New York.

What's not to like?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The art of conducting is not what is seen but what comes out of the orchestra. Karajan - like many of his generation - had a long apprenticeship in second rate opera houses where he honed his craft. One of his purposes of making his films (which were pioneering in their day but now can seem contrived) was to pass on his craft to a younger generation. Interesting fact that sometimes HvK used to stop conducting and let the orchestra play as chamber musicians.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Gustavo Dudamel won the Gustav Mahler Conducting Prize in Germany as early as 2004. He made his debut at La Scala with Don Giovanni two years later. He doesn't have many recordings, but the ones I've seen have been very favorably reviewed.
> 
> Don't know about his personality because I've never met him. But people around here seem pretty happy with him, and the orchestra likes him as well. His concerts that I've attended have been excellent. And he keeps the house full.
> 
> ...


There's plenty to like. He's very talented, and clearly makes a strong impression in performance. But I hear something lacking in the finer points. This Beethoven 5th, for example:






It makes the visceral impact it should in the end - the final movement is right up his alley - but there are some choices of tempo, phrasing and balances along the way that don't quite work for me (along with others that do). Others may disagree.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

OK, just standing up for the home team! And the man's got hair that won't quit, which counts for a lot.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

Given that I prefer conductors who take a human, workmanlike approach, and not the "I'm having a personal spiritual experience" approach, that sets aside Bernstein and Karajan. I particularly enjoyed Andris Nelsons conducting of the CBSO performing Beethoven's 9th at the Proms last year.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Given that I prefer conductors who take a *human, workmanlike approach,* and not the "I'm having a personal spiritual experience" approach, that sets aside Bernstein and Karajan. I particularly enjoyed Andris Nelsons conducting of the CBSO performing Beethoven's 9th at the Proms last year.


I wonder what you mean by that - that HvK and Berstein weren't human or they weren't workmanlike? When Karajan was at Ulm he did Rosenkavelier and found his bass couldn`t read music. So Karajan spent a 1000 rehearsals teaching him. That seems workmanlike to me!


----------



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Karajan did take the art of conducing to his own unique level.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I wonder what you mean by that - that HvK and Berstein weren't human or they weren't workmanlike? When Karajan was at Ulm he did Rosenkavelier and found his bass couldn`t read music. So Karajan spent a 1000 rehearsals teaching him. That seems workmanlike to me!


Well, the OP asks what is the best conducting I've seen. I may be being too literal, but I'm only commenting, therefore, on what I've seen, which can't possibly include what a conductor does backstage.

By 'workmanlike' - perhaps not the best term - I mean that there is visible evidence of the conductor and orchestra working together, rather than the conductor seeming to commune with the music or the dead composer.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Of course conducting is to be seen. How else is the orchestra to follow him/her? Plenty of audience members may take an interest too - nothing wrong with that. 
When I was a teenager, my father (a conductor) took me to hear the visiting Bernstein and the New York Phil play Mahler 5. Unforgettable. My father noted that at one point Bernstein, all his other communication methods already employed, queued in the horns with his left elbow.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Of course conducting is to be seen. How else is the orchestra to follow him/her? Plenty of audience members may take an interest too - nothing wrong with that.
> When I was a teenager, my father (a conductor) took me to hear the visiting Bernstein and the New York Phil play Mahler 5. Unforgettable. My father noted that at one point Bernstein, all his other communication methods already employed, queued in the horns with his left elbow.


You are right there, however the Karajan DVD'S and also Bernstein focus a lot on the conductor instead of the actual works, that's what bothering me.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Well, the OP asks what is the best conducting I've seen. I may be being too literal, but I'm only commenting, therefore, on what I've seen, which can't possibly include what a conductor does backstage.
> 
> By 'workmanlike' - perhaps not the best term - I mean that there is visible evidence of the conductor and orchestra working together, rather than *the conductor seeming to commune with the music *or the dead composer.


Sorry but I can't see how you can conduct something without seeming to commune with the music. Just how someone does it is up to each conductor.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> You are right there, however the Karajan DVD'S and also Bernstein *focus a lot on the conductor *instead of the actual works, that's what bothering me.


Karajan (not sure about Lenny) did that quite deliberately as he wanted to leave a legacy of the art of his conducting for future generations. They do seem very contrived now but at the time they were state of the art. But what we wouldn't give to have a DVD of (e.g.) Mahler conducting?


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

DavidA said:


> Just how someone does it is up to each conductor.


Of course. And just which approach we prefer is up to the viewer.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Karajan (not sure about Lenny) did that quite deliberately as he wanted to leave a legacy of the art of his conducting for future generations. They do seem very contrived now but at the time they were state of the art. But what we wouldn't give to have a DVD of (e.g.) Mahler conducting?


There's a very interesting documentary about H. von Karajan how he manipulate the whole recording of Beethoven 5 film.
They had raw material from the director but he redirected it so, he was the one the lights where on.
I am not a Karajan hater, he made stunning recordings ....just saying :tiphat:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Karajan conducting Bruckner 8. Can't see why people get worked up about his style!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

In fact this gives a better idea of what he was really like


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2016)

I like to add this video of his last concert,it is really touching.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Of course a conductor's job is to be seen and communicate but his audience is the musicians. Once his 'performance' on the podium starts drawing attention to himself (or herself), then he is distracting from the music which is (usually) the reason why people have paid to come and listen. I will not gainsay the abilities of Bernstein or HvK or Solti but a conductor can be just as effective without the histrionics, perhaps even more so. Two come immediately to mind, Carlo Maria Giulini, who I saw many times, and Adrian Boult. Many years ago I read about a conducting professor who told his students to 'Go out there and don't disturb the orchestra."

Of contemporary conductors, one I find particularly interesting is Semyon Bychkov. Someone recently posted a link on the Royal Opera YouTube site in which he discussed his philosophy of conducting.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Becca said:


> Of course a conductor's job is to be seen and communicate but his audience is the musicians. Once his 'performance' on the podium starts drawing attention to himself (or herself), then he is distracting from the music which is (usually) the reason why people have paid to come and listen. I will not gainsay the abilities of Bernstein or HvK or Solti but a conductor can be just as effective without the histrionics, perhaps even more so. Two come immediately to mind, *Carlo Maria Giulini*, who I saw many times, and Adrian Boult. Many years ago I read about a conducting professor who told his students to 'Go out there and don't disturb the orchestra."
> 
> Of contemporary conductors, one I find particularly interesting is Semyon Bychkov. Someone recently posted a link on the Royal Opera YouTube site in which he discussed his philosophy of conducting.


Giulini? He indulged in more histrionics than anyone else! At least when he was a younger man:


----------



## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

I've never really enjoyed any individual's conducting specifically, and I often wonder if conductors are necessary at all. I say this as someone whose primary interest in music is orchestration.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I've never really enjoyed any individual's conducting specifically, and I often wonder if conductors are necessary at all. I say this as someone whose primary interest in music is orchestration.


You haven't found some interpretations of music preferable to others? Do you think those interpretations could exist if 100 musicians had to take a vote on the proper execution of every slur and accent - or on how your orchestration would be balanced?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Conducting is a distraction for me which is why I would never order a DVD of an orchestral concert.

For me, it's a matter of best conducting I've ever heard and that would be Charles Munch/Boston Symphony Orchestra doing Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique.

Munch must have been waving the stick in the proper directions at the right time.

Keep in mind that some of the greatest conductors used minimal visual cues toward orchestral players and got fantastic results.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

KenOC said:


> OK, just standing up for the home team! And the man's got hair that won't quit, which counts for a lot.


His hair is worse looking than Kenny G's.


----------



## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Yannick Nézet-Séguin has such energy every time he conducts. It's exhilarating.


----------



## Klassic (Dec 19, 2015)

hpowders said:


> For me, it's a matter of best conducting I've ever heard...


The question I am asking is simply about the conductor's style while in front of the orchestra; am referring to his physical performance. I think Karajan was both polished and poetic in his style. I believe the presence and style of the conductor greatly affects the playing of the orchestra. Different styles produce different responses in the players.


----------



## Guest (Jan 8, 2016)

Klassic said:


> The question I am asking is simply about the conductor's style while in front of the orchestra; am referring to his physical performance. I think Karajan was both polished and poetic in his style. I believe the presence and style of the conductor greatly affects the playing of the orchestra. Different styles produce different responses in the players.


Thanks for your clarification. It's also obvious that different styles of conductor produce different responses in the viewer too. I give a thumbs up for Yannick Nézet-Séguin, who I saw do Prokofiev 5 at the Proms a couple of years ago.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Klassic said:


> The question I am asking is simply about the conductor's style while in front of the orchestra; am referring to his physical performance. I think Karajan was both polished and poetic in his style. I believe the presence and style of the conductor greatly affects the playing of the orchestra. Different styles produce different responses in the players.


I think there is something to this, but I don't think a conductor's physical approach to conducting _necessarily_ has much effect on the way an orchestra plays. Musicians basically know how a piece goes, and there are all sorts of ways, physical and verbal, a conductor can communicate more or less the same desire for an emphasis or a manner of bowing. Impassioned performances can be led by conductors who move very little and communicate with subtle gestures the audience is unaware of, or who work out most of what's to be done in rehearsal and just use an economical beat to hold things together while the players do what they've practiced doing. Contrarily, a conductor may make a great show of emotion or bob and weave with balletic grace, and the only real beneficiary will be the audience who like to "see the music" enacted visually. Of course it's natural for most conductors to be more animated when the music is more animated, and to try to indicate the quality of execution they want by their movements. But players are used to adapting to the physical idiosyncracies of different conductors and don't place too much importance on them.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I think there is something to this, but I don't think a conductor's physical approach to conducting _necessarily_ has much effect on the way an orchestra plays. Musicians basically know how a piece goes, and there are all sorts of ways, physical and verbal, a conductor can communicate more or less the same desire for an emphasis or a manner of bowing. Impassioned performances can be led by conductors who move very little and communicate with subtle gestures the audience is unaware of, or who work out most of what's to be done in rehearsal and just use an economical beat to hold things together while the players do what they've practiced doing. Contrarily, a conductor may make a great show of emotion or bob and weave with balletic grace, and the only real beneficiary will be the audience who like to "see the music" enacted visually. Of course it's natural for most conductors to be more animated when the music is more animated, and to try to indicate the quality of execution they want by their movements. *But players are used to adapting to the physical idiosyncracies of different conductors and don't place too much importance on them.*


And, in some cases, they will ignore the conductor and just play the piece, then make sure that that conductor doesn't get invited back!


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I haven't attended concerts by a lot of name conductors (Solti, Maazel, Boulez, Marriner, Leinsdorf, Gerghiev come to mind), but after the first five minutes, when I've gotten used to the histrionics (or lack thereof) I pretty much ignore what I'm seeing on the podium and react to what I'm hearing -- which is a product primarily of rehearsal. Each of the above had good and less good points.


----------



## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

My own director at my past University was probably the best conductor I've ever seen, technically. I haven't seen other conductors enough to make clear judgement. Also, to be a good conductor involves being a good coach too, but that's the side of conducting only musicians see, not listeners usually unless you attend an open rehearsal.


----------



## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't watch DVDs of concerts but I go to plenty of concerts. I like Mariss Jansons' style - very graceful. Andris Nelsons has some funky moves. Sometimes he hops. And sometimes he leans back with his whole body weight against the railing on the podium.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I asked the conductor Hans Vonk once why different conductors produced different sounds from an orchestra. He replied: "It's something that just happens."


----------



## Fat Bob (Sep 25, 2015)

And of course a great conducting technique does not necessarily equate to great music and vice versa. I think I am right in saying that Klaus Tennstedt was not famed for having a great stick technique but the only time I saw him in the concert hall was at the time, and remains, the most moving musical experience I have ever had. 

The piece was Das Lied Von Der Erde and in the "Von Der Jugend" movement he took some members of the LPO by surprise when the tempo suddenly increased as the young men went galloping by - perfect ensemble was lost for a few bars. However the "Abschied" with Brigitte Fassbaender as an exemplary soloist was Earth shatteringly great. The sort of experience that leaves you staggering out of the hall in a daze unable to speak - at least it did to me.

I'd also like to nominate a less well known conductor, Donald Runnicles, who I've heard a few times now. Again the work in question was by Mahler, this time the 3rd symphony, I piece I thought I knew well. During the concert I heard details of the work I had somehow missed before. Runnicles wasn't imposing his own ideas on the piece, he was allowing us to hear the piece more fully than ever before. If that's not great conducting, I don't know what is.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Pyotr said:


> Yannick Nézet-Séguin has such energy every time he conducts. It's exhilarating.


And also fascinating to :tiphat:


----------



## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I was fortunate enough to see Eugen Jochum conducting Beethoven's 5th symphony, there were other pieces on the programme but I only remember the Beethoven. Jochum was in his early eighties and he put every fibre of his being into this piece - my mother who I was with said she thought he was going to collapse when the performace ended. Lucking for Eugen he had several more years left after this concert and I can only conclude that it was the sheer stamina needed and enthusiasm that kept him going at such a white heat.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Toscanini/NBC Symphony Beethoven Eroica Symphony.

He had the best stick control I have ever seen.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

I don't know about "seen" but the best I've heard is Furtwangler's 1944 Eroica:






Maybe the most intense recording of any classical work ever.


----------



## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

For me it is hands down Carlos Kleiber conducting Beethoven's symphonies 4 & 7:






You simply will not see better conducting _anywhere_..........


----------



## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

If the visual aspect of conducting is created solely with the intention of creating great music than it is worth considering. If the visual aspect is created for the purpose of "how it looks" and not for "how it sounds" than it is more accurately considered DANCE and isn't worth the time to discuss. 

So while I agree that conducting is "not something to be seen", nevertheless, there is a technique to conducting and it IS visual. 

The best technical conducting I have seen live was Essa Pekka Salonen doing Sibelius 5. I would also say that Neville Marriner's conducting (that I only saw once), was very clear as to what it was that he wanted from the orchestra.

Bernstein and Von Karajan both got fantastic results from their orchestras through emotional and very intuitive performances.


----------

