# Never-gets-old trope where heroine'd rather die for alpha male than live with beta



## Fenestella (Oct 4, 2015)

What are the quintessential examples of the trope where the heroine would rather die for or with the more attractive male than live with the less attractive one (who may or may not be pure evil)?

_Tosca_ and _La Gioconda_ are the ones I can think of.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I those days......genetically determined.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> I those days......genetically determined.


Quickly from the top of my head (it is getting late for me...):

Cio-Cio-san, who would not settle for Prince Yamadori 
Luisa Miller, who would not settle for Wurm 
Leonora, who would not settle for the Count di Luna (a case of not identifying the real Alpha, Manrico was a troubadour...) 
Nedda, who would not settle for Canio (or Tonio!) for Silvio 
Isolde, who wouldn't settle for Marke for Tristan (but Tristan is the Beta here... Hmmm) 
Lucia Ashton, who would not settle for Arturo Bucklaw (and after killing him) die for Edgardo di Rawenswood (probably due to vocal exhaustion)

There must be more but it is too late here...


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Quickly from the top of my head (it is getting late for me...):
> 
> Cio-Cio-san, who would not settle for Prince Yamadori
> Luisa Miller, who would not settle for Wurm
> ...


Sleep well :angel:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Fenestella said:


> What are the quintessential examples of the trope where the heroine would rather die for or with the more attractive male than live with the less attractive one (who may or may not be pure evil)?
> 
> _Tosca_ and _La Gioconda_ are the ones I can think of.


Tristan and Parsifal and Gotterdammerung.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Is it really the alpha who always gets the girl? Perhaps when it comes to looks, but often the rival for the heroine's affections is more powerful than her lover, who is often a social outsider. Scarpia, chief of police versus Cavaradossi the artist. In terms of job and role in society Scarpia is the alpha and has a traditionally masculine role (military/police), rather than the artist, that society may have seen as an effeminate role (even more likely in the Rome of 1800). I would say that Scarpia is the alpha (although presumably being older than Cavaradossi and so being on the wane).

The same could be said of Trovatore, powerful Count vs. outcast singer. If there is a trope in these stories it's about women who fall in love with outsiders and how society punishes them for this. (E.g. Cio cio san gives up a rich Prince for a foreign sailor.) Some see this trope as demonstrating that opera was upholding the values of a previous conservative society, however, since the composers and poets themselves were part of that alternative 'outsider' class, I think it far more likely that they were using these examples to show society how cruel some of its mores could be.

N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Tristan and Parsifal and Gotterdammerung.


What am I missing? How does Parsifal fit in here? Parsifal and Kundry don't strike me as an exactly romantic pair. Not at least in the same sense as Siegfried/Brünnhilde or Tristan/Isolde.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Káťa Kabanová meets the criteria, I think.


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## Fenestella (Oct 4, 2015)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Cio-Cio-san, who would not settle for Prince Yamadori
> Luisa Miller, who would not settle for Wurm
> Leonora, who would not settle for the Count di Luna (a case of not identifying the real Alpha, Manrico was a troubadour...)
> Nedda, who would not settle for Canio (or Tonio!) for Silvio
> ...


 Great list, more please.

_La Wally_ would rather die with Hagenbach than live with Gellner.
Maddalena would rather die with _Andrea Chenier_ than live with Gerard.
Stephana would rather die with Vassilli in _Siberia_ than live with Gleby.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Aida with Radames
Magda Sorel to save John
Liu for Calaf
Gilda for Gualtier Malde

and what about men?
Ernani for a Horn!!
Edgardo for Lucia
Werther for Charlotte
Otello for Desdemona


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

The more I think about it, the more Tosca doesn't fit at all. Scarpia doesn't want to live with her, he just wants a quick _spasimo d'amore_! Furthermore she doesn't choose death with Cavaradossi over living with Scarpia, that isn't the choice at all. Her choice is be raped and save Cavaradossi or let him die. It's only when he is killed at the end that she decides her only option is suicide (and the alternative is not to live with Scarpia as he is dead).

(Apologies for the huge spoiler!)

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Aida with Radames
> Magda Sorel to save John
> Liu for Calaf
> Gilda for Gualtier Malde
> ...


Who's the 'beta' in these stories?

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Quickly from the top of my head (it is getting late for me...):
> 
> Cio-Cio-san, who would not settle for Prince Yamadori
> Luisa Miller, who would not settle for Wurm
> ...


So who exactlys is the alpha and the beat in the above list.

Yamadori is portrayed quite sympathetically by Puccini and he behaves impeccably towards Butterfly. She rejects him because she single-mindedly clings to the delusion that Pinkerton married her in good faith and will return. Yamadori would actually have been a good match. In the second Karajan recording the Yamadori sounds as if he would be hard pressed to sing Goro, but his music is quite lyrical and should be sung by a tenor who could possibly sing Pinkerton. We are told he is also rather rich. He sounds something like an alpha to me.

The Nedda/Canio/Silvio triangle is a bt more complicated. It's not spelled out, but I think Nedda is looking for a way out of a loveless, childless marriage with an older man, who is prone to violence. The Zeffirelli film with Domingo and Stratas is brilliant in bringing out this subtext. Years ago, Nedda was often portrayed as a flighty tart, but I don't see her that way at all. I suppose that, in this case, Silvio is the alpha and she chooses to die for/with him rather than carry on being abused by Canio.

Tristan, as the younger man, might be considered the alpha here because he is the younger man, but Marke is a King, which gives him a claim to being the alpha.

The villain of Lucia di Lammermoor is actually Lucy's brother, Enrico. We don't know much about Sir Arturo Bucklaw, but Donizetti portrays him quite sympathetically. As a nobleman, he could well be considered the alpha.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> So who exactlys is the alpha and the beat in the above list.
> 
> Yamadori is portrayed quite sympathetically by Puccini and he behaves impeccably towards Butterfly. She rejects him because she single-mindedly clings to the delusion that Pinkerton married her in good faith and will return. Yamadori would actually have been a good match. In the second Karajan recording the Yamadori sounds as if he would be hard pressed to sing Goro, but his music is quite lyrical and should be sung by a tenor who could possibly sing Pinkerton. We are told he is also rather rich. He sounds something like an alpha to me.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are correct about the Alphas and Betas. I focused on the choice issue of two characters in pursuit of a "love interest" and the lady having to make a choice between them. I was less concerned between Alpha/Beta though because it is relative and it would have to be looked from the psychology of the woman than our external perception.

I agree with you that Yamadori should be sung by a tenor in his way to Pinkerton as the _Vi lascio il cor pien di cordoglio_ is a gem of a phrase that deserves beautiful and passionate singing to demonstrate exactly the non brutish side of the character. But based on that, Yamadori would be more of a Beta type from Cio-Cio-san, perhaps, as she mocks him.

Nedda suffered for me a transformation once I heard Callas' rendition. What you say about escaping Canio became real and she truly became a woman _piena di vita_. Until then, I had not understood the depth of the character and had received her as a prop for tenor and baritone emoting. She became real and, thus, complex. I agree Silvio is the Alpha, Canio the weak Beta who lashes out in anger and who can only keep Nedda around by abusing her.

So, for that matter, I think that Carmen is another example who dies for her Alpha after having entangled with a weak Beta man.

I included Lucia because the premise was by Fenestella _Beta... (who may or may not be pure evil)_. Arturo is not a devil -- the poor guy is innocent and loses his life on the deal! I think that Edgardo appears as an Alpha but he's more of a Beta. Either he was braindead in not realizing that Lucia was being forced into a marriage by Enrico after all that had happened between them...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Who's the 'beta' in these stories?
> 
> N.


What's wrong with simply wanting to take your life along with or because of the man you love? 
And besides, with Elvira being the Beta, what could be more Alpha than that horn, for gosh sakes?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

VitellioScarpia said:


> So, for that matter, I think that Carmen is another example who dies for her Alpha after having entangled with a weak Beta man.


I don't agree with you here. I don't think she is thinking of Escamillo at all at the moment of death. She is a free spirit, who refuses to be simply the love interest of a man. Defiant to the last, she refuses to give in to José, and staring death in the face, asserts her freedom from all men. She is probably the first truly emancipated woman in opera.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> What's wrong with simply wanting to take your life along with or because of the man you love?
> And besides, with Elvira being the Beta, what could be more Alpha than that horn, for gosh sakes?


I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, I was just questioning how accurate the trope was as described in the OP.

Ernani also fits another operatic trope - the ridiculous plot based on Spanish honour!

N.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> What am I missing? How does Parsifal fit in here? Parsifal and Kundry don't strike me as an exactly romantic pair. Not at least in the same sense as Siegfried/Brünnhilde or Tristan/Isolde.


Siegfried gets his auntie! :lol:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

annaw said:


> What am I missing? How does Parsifal fit in here? Parsifal and Kundry don't strike me as an exactly romantic pair. Not at least in the same sense as Siegfried/Brünnhilde or Tristan/Isolde.


Haha, Kundry does seduce Parsifal with the ulterior motive of hoping to be rebuffed so she can die. :lol:


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Couchie said:


> Haha, Kundry does seduce Parsifal with the ulterior motive of hoping to be rebuffed so she can die. :lol:


I see, I see :lol:.... but it's still not too romantic considering that Parsifal really doesn't seem to fully grasp what's going on until his own moral enlightening. It's seductive but is it really romantic?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Siegfried gets his auntie! :lol:


Cannot be worse than all the stuff going on in Greek mythology... or actually pretty much any mythology.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I don't agree with you here. I don't think she is thinking of Escamillo at all at the moment of death. She is a free spirit, who refuses to be simply the love interest of a man. Defiant to the last, she refuses to give in to José, and staring death in the face, asserts her freedom from all men. She is probably the first truly emancipated woman in opera.


Perhaps, my thought was in every case the choice was there for all the characters whatever the internal motives are (freedom, self-assertion, love). I think that we are more complex in our decisions than either purely emotional or rational.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Leonora is clearly in need of glasses. Who in their right mind would choose some tenor (who often can't even hit that high C) over a baritone who tends to be ridiculously sexy?

I mean.


























Leonora why'd you die for a tenor. Also, have you heard Di Luna sing?


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Sieglinde said:


> Leonora why'd you die for a tenor. Also, have you heard Di Luna sing?


I have had the same problem with _Il Trovatore_ productions as well. Di Luna suddenly becomes more likeable than Verdi intended him to be... This opera makes sense if the tenor has the looks of Corelli, Del Monaco or young Domingo though .


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

annaw said:


> I have had the same problem with _Il Trovatore_ productions as well. Di Luna suddenly becomes more likeable than Verdi intended him to be... This opera makes sense if the tenor has the looks of Corelli, Del Monaco or young Domingo though .


Even there... If you match Corelli with a Bastianini, or Domingo against Zancanaro, I am not sure that either tenor is more "alpha" than the baritone!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> Leonora is clearly in need of glasses. Who in their right mind would choose some tenor (who often can't even hit that high C) over a baritone who tends to be ridiculously sexy?
> 
> I mean.
> 
> ...


Who's number two?

N.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

His name is Mario Cassi, he was in an Opéra Royal de Wallonie production (I saw it on Operavision a while ago). The Manrico was Fabio Sartori so you can imagine my utter disbelief in the plot.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

annaw said:


> I see, I see :lol:.... but it's still not too romantic considering that Parsifal really doesn't seem to fully grasp what's going on until his own moral enlightening. It's seductive but is it really romantic?


Anti-romantic, actually. The alpha males in _Parsifal_ are that righteous prig Titurel, his self-castrated alter-ego Klingsor, and sonny boy Amfortas, whose hyperalphaness ends up castrating the whole Grail squad. Parsifal is not a beta but the inversion and sublimation of the alpha, a rebuke not only to alpha maleness but to the erotic delusions of Tristan and Siegfried too. After dealing with that bunch it's no wonder Kundry dies happily.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Anti-romantic, actually. The alpha males in _Parsifal_ are that righteous prig Titurel, his self-castrated alter-ego Klingsor, and sonny boy Amfortas, whose hyperalphaness ends up castrating the whole Grail squad. Parsifal is not a beta but the inversion and sublimation of the alpha, a rebuke not only to alpha maleness but to the erotic delusions of Tristan and Siegfried too. After dealing with that bunch it's no wonder Kundry dies happily.


Yes, poor Kundry. After the failure of Amfortas as a mate and experiencing Parsifal with his alpha inversion, she realized that there was no hope to find a real Alpha in the world and decided to let herself die. Klingsor, we all know, was a repressed one.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Anti-romantic, actually. The alpha males in Parsifal are that righteous prig Titurel, his self-castrated alter-ego Klingsor, and sonny boy Amfortas, whose hyperalphaness ends up castrating the whole Grail squad. Parsifal is not a beta but the inversion and sublimation of the alpha, a rebuke not only to alpha maleness but to the erotic delusions of Tristan and Siegfried too. After dealing with that bunch it's no wonder Kundry dies happily.


Thanks, Woodduck, that was very insightful! I feel Parsifal was the final and the most ideal development and combination of Wagner's previous heroes.



VitellioScarpia said:


> Yes, poor Kundry. *After the failure of Amfortas as a mate and experiencin*g Parsifal with his alpha inversion, she realized that there was no hope to find a real Alpha in the world and decided to let herself die. *Klingsor, we all know, was a repressed one.*


I feel Kundry was a lot more complex than a mere romantic lead or something like that. She wasn't seducing the Grail knights because she wanted to but Klingsor made her do that. She quite clearly states that she just wants to "sleep", die. There're some quite clear similarities between Kundry's and Tristan's wish to die. The wish itself is inherently similar, somewhat Schopenhauerian, but the reasons are different. What Parsifal offers to Kundry is a type of love, not a romantic one, that Schopenhauer saw as a possible way to gain salvation. Romantic desire is often used as an example of the greatest desire possible, making it also a source of suffering that, in Schopenhauer's philosophy, should thus be rejected. I'm not sure whether Klingsor was exactly repressed... In some sense maybe but I don't think that "repressed" was exactly the word Wagner had in mind.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Yes, poor Kundry. After the failure of Amfortas as a mate and experiencing Parsifal with his alpha inversion, she realized that there was no hope to find a real Alpha in the world and decided to let herself die. Klingsor, we all know, was a repressed one.


Repressed... A slight understatement, methinks.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

annaw said:


> I feel Kundry was a lot more complex than a mere romantic lead or something like that. She wasn't seducing the Grail knights because she wanted to but Klingsor made her do that. She quite clearly states that she just wants to "sleep", die. There're some quite clear similarities between Kundry's and Tristan's wish to die. The wish itself is inherently similar, somewhat Schopenhauerian, but the reasons are different. I'm not sure whether Klingsor was exactly repressed... In some sense maybe but I don't think that "repressed" was exactly the word Wagner had in mind.


Part of Kundry was complicit, driven by her hatred of the "beta" men in which she must ultimately rely on to find her salvation.

From Wagner's prose draft:

_To avenge the dreadful disgrace he once suffered from Titurel, he traps and seduces the noblest knights of the Grail into breaking their vow of chastity. What, however, gives him power over Kundry, this most exquisite instrument of seduction, is not only the magic power through which he controls the curse upon Kundry, but also the most powerful assistance he finds in Kundry's own soul:

Since only one man can redeem her and so she feels given to him in complete submission, her experience of the weakness of these men cannot but fill her with strange bitterness: feeling that only one man, who withstands the force of her feminine charms, can destroy and redeem her, she is repeatedly driven by something deep in her own soul to be tested again: but mixed with this is her scorn, her despair at being subjugated to this feeble breed, and a fearful blazing hatred which, while it disposes her for the destruction of men, at the same time repeatedly arouses her wild, loving desire in a consuming, fearfully fiery manner to that fit of ecstasy by means of which she can work the magic, while remaining its' slave._


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Repressed... A slight understatement, methinks.


Klingsor is one of those characters whose essence I haven't really been able to grasp... How did Wagner manage to put so many of his most complex characters into a single opera?!


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Couchie said:


> Part of Kundry was complicit, driven by her hatred of the "beta" men in which she must ultimately rely on to find her salvation.
> 
> From Wagner's prose draft:
> 
> ...


Woah! I guess I have to correct some of my views regarding the philosophy and ideas in _Parsifal_, again... But this complexity is in my opinion one of Wagner's greatest merits so I don't mind.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Unravelling Wagner is a lifetime's work


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Unravelling Wagner is a lifetime's work


I'm afraid I won't finish in time. Wehe! ach wehe! o Schmerz! o Schmerz!


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Gelobter Held! Entflieh dem Wahn! Blick auf! Sei hold der Huldin Nahn! :devil:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Gelobter Held! Entflieh dem Wahn! Blick auf! Sei hold der Huldin Nahn! :devil:


Ha! Diese stimme!

(Are you trying to seduce me?)


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Ha! Diese stimme!
> 
> (Are you trying to seduce me?)


Weiche, Woodduck, weiche! (It is Scarpia you are speaking with after all!)

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Weiche, Woodduck, weiche! (It is Scarpia you are speaking with after all!)
> 
> N.


Ha. Neither a drooling chief of police nor a nymphomaniac with multiple personality disorder will ever get their hands on my sacred spear.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Fenestella said:


> What are the quintessential examples of the trope where the heroine would rather die for or with the more attractive male than live with the less attractive one (who may or may not be pure evil)?
> 
> _Tosca_ and _La Gioconda_ are the ones I can think of.


Scarpia is pure evil-but in this opera I'd say he is the very definition of alpha male. Cavaradossi is indeed more attractive but he's a sensitive painter , he'd fit the beta male description better


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## Open Book (Aug 14, 2018)

Fenestella said:


> What are the quintessential examples of the trope where the heroine would rather die for or with the more attractive male than live with the less attractive one (who may or may not be pure evil)?


She wouldn't die for him, she obviously hates him, but isn't it thought that Donna Anna feels attracted to Don Giovanni? Her own betrothed looks like a poor beta male by comparison. She pushes Don Ottavio away for the whole opera and asks for more "me time" at the end.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Scarpia is pure evil-but in this opera I'd say he is the very definition of alpha male. Cavaradossi is indeed more attractive but he's a sensitive painter , he'd fit the beta male description better


Here we go again. The same old cussin' and discussion.
Pure evil is a Iago, a Bluebeard, maybe even a Claggart, but a Scarpia, Pinkerton, Wurm and Turandot all have redeeming features. 
They all share one thing in common that the other 2 do not -- consciences.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Here we go again. The same old cussin' and discussion.
> Pure evil is a Iago, a Bluebeard, maybe even a Claggart, but a Scarpia, Pinkerton, Wurm and Turandot all have redeeming features.
> They all share one thing in common that the other 2 do not -- consciences.


I certainly would't call Bluebeard pure evil, especially if you look into the symbolism of the opera rather than take it at face value.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> I certainly would't call Bluebeard pure evil, especially if you look into the symbolism of the opera rather than take it at face value.


A fair statement to be discussed (or cussed)
We could add that little girl from "The Bad Seed." I get shivers just thinking about her.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Ha. Neither a drooling chief of police nor a nymphomaniac with multiple personality disorder will ever get their hands on my sacred spear.


Flieh dem Fluch des Grafen! Ha più forte sapore la conquista violenta che il mellifluo consenso. Ah, in questo instante t'ho giurato mio!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Flieh dem Fluch des Grafen! Ha più forte sapore la conquista violenta che il mellifluo consenso. Ah, in questo instante t'ho giurato mio!


I see that social distancing is getting to you.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Here we go again. The same old cussin' and discussion.
> Pure evil is a Iago, a Bluebeard, maybe even a Claggart, but a Scarpia, Pinkerton, Wurm and Turandot all have redeeming features.
> They all share one thing in common that the other 2 do not -- consciences.


I don't see signs of Scarpia having a conscience, why do you think he does have one?

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Open Book said:


> She wouldn't die for him, she obviously hates him, but isn't it thought that Donna Anna feels attracted to Don Giovanni? Her own betrothed looks like a poor beta male by comparison. She pushes Don Ottavio away for the whole opera and asks for more "me time" at the end.


It's a possibility, but I think the 'me time' is adequately explained by Anna's dealing with the trauma of an attempted rape and her father being killed right before her eyes.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> I don't see signs of Scarpia having a conscience, why do you think he does have one?
> 
> N.


Yes I do think he has a conscience. He shows his hand in the first act when he says, "Tosca, you make me forget God!"


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Yes I do think he has a conscience. He shows his hand in the first act when he says, "Tosca, you make me forget God!"


That's interesting. I'd always thought it was ironic as a line, I also don't see any other signs of his struggling to fight his lust for Tosca. However, it is a valid interpretation and could make for a very interesting take on the role.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Yes I do think he has a conscience. He shows his hand in the first act when he says, "Tosca, you make me forget God!"


I'd say that's a sarcastic joke. You're assuming that he's actually interested in God at any other time - and that even if he is, an interest in God is a mitigating factor in his sliminess. I'd say that a person who professes belief in God and behaves as Scarpia does is worse, not better, than Iago, who is at least not a hypocrite.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

VitellioScarpia said:


> Even there... If you match Corelli with a Bastianini, or Domingo against Zancanaro, I am not sure that either tenor is more "alpha" than the baritone!


Here's Del Monaco with Bastianini -






I think "alpha" or "beta" talk is pretty trashy pop psychology mostly of interest to insecure young men. But I am interested in questions of how likable the different characters are supposed to be in Trovatore, and this video is one interesting example--what if the Manrico plays the role like an absolute eye-rolling loon?


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I'd say that's a sarcastic joke. You're assuming that he's actually interested in God at any other time - and that even if he is, an interest in God is a mitigating factor in his sliminess. I'd say that a person who professes belief in God and behaves as Scarpia does is worse, not better, than Iago, who is at least not a hypocrite.


First, I don't believe it is a sarcastic joke. At least not from the majority of Scarpias I have seen. 
I only saw one a few years ago at the Met where the director had him simulating sexual gyrations on the Virgin, but audiences who saw this production were so enraged with this interpretation that by the time I got to see it a few weeks later, the scene was changed to him prostrating himself at the virgin's feet and caressing them with dedicated devotion.
Second, your opinion that a person who _"professes belief in God and behaves as Scarpia does is worse, not better than Iago, who is at least not a hypocrite"_ is certainly to be respected, even if I disagree with it.

The statement that Iago, _"at the very least, is not a hypocrite"_ is nothing more to me than a being exhibiting traits of a psychopath and is, indeed, incapable of feelings of hypocrisy or conscience at all.

I personally do not view Scarpia a psychopath though he occasionally does exhibit some aspects of it when imbued with charm within the interpretation of the character, depending upon the director's wants and the production.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> First, I don't believe it is a sarcastic joke. At least not from the majority of Scarpias I have seen.
> I only saw one a few years ago at the Met where the director had him simulating sexual gyrations on the Virgin, but audiences who saw this production were so enraged with this interpretation that by the time I got to see it a few weeks later, the scene was changed to him prostrating himself at the virgin's feet and caressing them with dedicated devotion.
> Second, your opinion that a person who _"professes belief in God and behaves as Scarpia does is worse, not better than Iago, who is at least not a hypocrite"_ is certainly to be respected, even if I disagree with it.
> 
> ...


What are the traits of a psychopath?

1) Being prepared to break the law - that's sort of difficult considering that Scarpia is the law to a certain extent, but he is a very corrupt chief of police so I think that box is ticked.

2) Manipulative - speaks for itself

3) No empathy - he actually enjoys the fact that Tosca is suffering throughout act two and his wanting to sleep with her seems to be as much about her suffering during the experience as his getting pleasure from it.

4) An interest in power and holding it over others - see point 3.

I think Scarpia is textbook psychopath.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> That's interesting. I'd always thought it was ironic as a line, _I also don't see any other signs of his struggling to fight his lust for Tosca._ However, it is a valid interpretation and could make for a very interesting take on the role.
> 
> N.


Why should there be other signs of struggle to fight for his lust of Tosca? He wanted her and had no shame of that.
The shame he recognized in himself was in his behavior in a consecrated establishment -- the church. His upbringing (a very strong impact on his character) took over under those hallowed walls and, to me, was anything but a sarcastic joke.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> What are the traits of a psychopath?
> 
> 1) Being prepared to break the law - that's sort of difficult considering that Scarpia is the law to a certain extent, but he is a very corrupt chief of police so I think that box is ticked.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that he shows certain aspects of psychopathy (actually to some degree, so do I! So do others I know), but as long as one has a conscience, this is the line that is crossed that makes the difference between a mean-spirited, hateful, power hungry person from an actual psychopath.
And I do believe he has a conscience. 
I also believe there are others who would support your way and others who would agree with my way.
So at this juncture, I imagine this is the point where we say that old line, "let's agree to disagree."


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Why should there be other signs of struggle to fight for his lust of Tosca? He wanted her and had no shame of that.


But she doesn't want him and it's his lack of shame about _that_ which marks him as not having a conscience, where is his conscience during act two when he is torturing Tosca and gearing up to rape her?

N.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> I don't disagree that he shows certain aspects of psychopathy (actually to some degree, so do I! So do others I know), but as long as one has a conscience, this is the line that is crossed that makes the difference between a mean-spirited, hateful, power hungry person from an actual psychopath.
> And I do believe he has a conscience.
> I also believe there are others who would support your way and others who would agree with my way.
> So at this juncture, I imagine this is the point where we say that old line, "let's agree to disagree."


I think that both of you have a point. I think that you both are missing that people are not necessarily self-consistent because of the struggle among reason, emotion and instinct. Some behaviors spring from subconscious processes not well understood. Scarpia is a bigot and a psychopath. So, there are times where he will contemplate remorse (and feel it) and others when he will not.

When Tosca screams earlier in the first act _Tu non l'avrai stassera, giuro!_, Scarpia reprovingly says to her _In chiesa!_ That is not hypocrisy but a deep seated learned behavior that scandalizes him. The man is a cauldron of contradictions and he is both weak and cruel: his cruelty is necessary to him for self confirmation. He self reassures himself and appeases his fear by frightening others. That's what he means by _Il tuo pianto era *lava* ai sensi miei_. He is aroused by seeing that others are suffering because of him, and that he is not empathetic to their pain.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm with Woodduck and Le Conte, and I have a feeling Gobbi, at least, would be on our side. I don't think Scarpia struggles to fight his lust at all. We know that Tosca is not the first woman he manipulates to his own ends. Indeed he has already done the same thing with a certain Palmieri.The bit in the church is all show. He speaks of his lust for Tosca with relish and absolutely no hint of conscience or piety in the house of God. When he prays, he does it to keep up appearances, just as he would turn up to state dinners for the same reason. There is absolutely no sincerity in the line _Tosca, mi fa dimenticare Iddio_ , especially as sung by Gobbi.

Later, in the rape scene, when Tosca tells him how much she hates him, he glories in it and glories in her helplessness,

_Quel tuo pianto era lava
ai sensi miei e il tuo sguardo
che odio in me dardeggiava,
mie brame inferociva!
Agil qual leopardo
ti avvinghiasti all'amante;
in quell'istante
t'ho giurata mia!
Mia! Sì, t'avrò!..._

And then later

_Che importa?
Spasimi d'ira e spasimi d'amore!_

I don't think he has a redeeming bone in his body and to look for one is surely going against the character Puccini and his librettists created.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Conte said:


> But she doesn't want him and it's his lack of shame about _that_ which marks him as not having a conscience, where is his conscience during act two when he is torturing Tosca and gearing up to rape her?
> 
> N.


That's the whole point. His shame was NOT there because it was only summoned up as a result of his basic beliefs in a consecrated house of worship. 
In other words, though he actually has a conscience, as exhibited by his actions in the church, it is easily able to be forgotten and hidden in real life in order for him to continue his powerful stance in the community.
Just because one desires a person they should not doesn't show a lack of conscience.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

howlingfantods said:


> Here's Del Monaco with Bastianini -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In general I feel Del Monaco has the whole package - good looks, fiery Italian temperament, charisma and heroic voice. I cannot comment on the exact production as I've only seen some bits of it. He's sometimes over the top in every sense but I'd much rather have an overacting Del Monaco than a more or less decent singer who doesn't act at all or whose acting is full of unnatural clichés. Overacting at least often means that the person enjoys being on stage and I'm more than sure that despite all his shortcomings, Del Monaco was one of those "all in" singers. I'm obliged to mention though that I'm biased as I really like Del Monaco's voice, despite his occasional shouting, and stage presence but I know there are many who'd disagree. Therefore I don't claim my views to be objective in any way .


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I think that both of you have a point. I think that you both are missing that people are not necessarily self-consistent because of the struggle among reason, emotion and instinct. Some behaviors spring from subconscious processes not well understood. Scarpia is a bigot and a psychopath. So, there are times where he will contemplate remorse (and feel it) and others when he will not.
> 
> When Tosca screams earlier in the first act _Tu non l'avrai stassera, giuro!_, Scarpia reprovingly says to her _In chiesa!_ That is not hypocrisy but a deep seated learned behavior that scandalizes him. The man is a cauldron of contradictions and he is both weak and cruel: his cruelty is necessary to him for self confirmation. He self reassures himself and appeases his fear by frightening others. That's what he means by _Il tuo pianto era *lava* ai sensi miei_. He is aroused by seeing that others are suffering because of him, and that he is not empathetic to their pain.


Thank you for your interesting posits.
Probably without meaning to, you are actually, by your very words, helping to make my case.
No psychopath feels remorse or is a cauldron of contradictions. Nor are they weak or have any fears. They have no conscience to recognize these traits. 
The fact that you say Scarpia owns these above traits seems to make the case that he is indeed not a psychopath.
I did acknowledge the fact that he exhibits certain traits of the psychopath, but as I said before, so do plenty of other people who are not actual psychopaths.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> Thank you for your interesting posits.
> Probably without meaning to, you are actually, by your very words, helping to make my case.
> No psychopath feels remorse or is a cauldron of contradictions. Nor are they weak or have any fears. They have no conscience to recognize these traits.
> The fact that you say Scarpia owns these above traits seems to make the case that he is indeed not a psychopath.
> I did acknowledge the fact that he exhibits certain traits of the psychopath, but as I said before, so do plenty of other people who are not actual psychopaths.


I think that he will feel remorse not in the sense of an empath but in the context that he may _look bad_ by certain action and weaken his _standing_. But the feeling of regret is real although based exclusively on _his_ needs. The needs of others, as you very well say, do not exist. That's why people like him are so disconcerting. Of course that's my reading of Scarpia, I do not profess to have the truth or certainly be trained in psychology (just in case someone asks for my certifications on the matter! :lol.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

nina foresti said:


> Thank you for your interesting posits.
> Probably without meaning to, you are actually, by your very words, helping to make my case.
> *No psychopath feels remorse or is a cauldron of contradictions. Nor are they weak or have any fears. They have no conscience to recognize these traits. *
> The fact that you say Scarpia owns these above traits seems to make the case that he is indeed not a psychopath.
> I did acknowledge the fact that he exhibits certain traits of the psychopath, but as I said before, so do plenty of other people who are not actual psychopaths.


In my opinion that's an oversimplification. Not all "psychopaths" are similar and a few have something to do with moral understanding - the problems rather begin with brain's biochemistry. Also, being a psychopath doesn't necessarily mean that you don't have conscience or inherent understanding of good and bad that to some extent springs from conscience. I guess Puccini didn't bother analysing the existence of Scarpia's conscience as Scarpia didn't care for morals nevertheless. Even if he had some sort of conscience, it wasn't of any meaningful importance to him. It's also important to keep in mind that we cannot always analyse characters the same way we analyse human psychology. Composers and writers often emphasise some certain symbolic traits in such a strong way that such characters would rarely exist in real human world.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Since Tosca is an opera and not a documentary or a biography, we might look to see whether Puccini has given Scarpia any music that might suggest an active conscience, or any side to his personality suggestive of empathy or any other virtuous quality. Does anyone hear that in the score? I don't, but I'm open to suggestions.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

By the way, I do not post my beliefs from any particular credentials of expertise in abnormal psychology. I am way too old to conjure up my past studies even though I minored in Abnormal Psychology back in the day.
We all have different points of view on what is and what is not a psychopath.
I actually do not believe that even Puccini was expert enough in psychological pursuits to give the proper perspective through the music.
This is a very interesting discussion that probably has no definitive answer.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Scarpia is Neutral Evil masquerading as Lawful Evil.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I believe Puccini was quite skilled enough in musical characterization to have expressed a sincere, sympathetic side to Scarpia had he intended to. All the great opera composers were capable of that; certainly Mozart, Verdi and Wagner were, and Puccini shows his capabilities elsewhere. I would almost say that Scarpia's lack of such a dimension is a flaw, or at least a mark of an inferior sensibility on Puccini's part, except for the fact that the character is so perfectly realized as what he is. _Tosca_ isn't a profound opera, but it's one heck of a melodrama, and Scarpia is one terrifically awful villain.


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## zxxyxxz (Apr 14, 2020)

Ha!

Though he is chief of police which implies a preference for an order of some sort.

I feel alignments of opera characters is a thread of itself.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> I believe Puccini was quite skilled enough in. musical characterization to have expressed a sincere, sympathetic side to Scarpia had he intended to. All the great opera composers were capable of that; *certainly Mozart, Verdi and Wagner were*, and Puccini shows his capabilities elsewhere. I would almost say that Scarpia's lack of such a dimension is a flaw, or at least a mark of an inferior sensibility on Puccini's part, except for the fact that the character is so perfectly realized as what he is. _Tosca_ isn't a profound opera, but it's one heck of a melodrama, and Scarpia is one terrifically awful villain.


Totally agree! Alberich is probably one of the best examples of such ambivalent evil character. Count di Luna seems to be a loose example of Verdi's Scarpia-type character. Differently from Scarpia though, di Luna has always striked me as a much more humane character who is just too strongly lead by his own emotions and desires but he is not thoroughly evil. Verdi wrote some quite nice music for him after all .


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

annaw said:


> Totally agree! Alberich is probably one of the best examples of such ambivalent evil character. Count di Luna seems to be a loose example of Verdi's Scarpia-type character. Differently from Scarpia though, di Luna has always striked me as a much more humane character who is just too strongly lead by his own emotions and desires but he is not thoroughly evil. Verdi wrote some quite nice music for him after all .


I agree with you. De Luna is an emotional, stubborn and avmisogyinist character. On top of that, he is a nobleman and, thus, feels entitled. He is jealous of Manrico and he sends him to be killed at the end because of a jealous rage and the betrayal of Leonora. However, his las words are _Quale orror!_ when he realizes that he had just ordered the execution of his brother. Not a Scarpia or a Iago in my book.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

annaw said:


> In general I feel Del Monaco has the whole package - good looks, fiery Italian temperament, charisma and heroic voice. I cannot comment on the exact production as I've only seen some bits of it.


I think you may have taken my post to be a criticism of MDM, it wasn't at all. This is my favorite video version of Trovatore and possibly my favorite audio version as well.

It's subtitled on youtube, I highly recommend it. I also bought copies on DVD and CD for my collection in case the youtube version I linked disappears.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

howlingfantods said:


> I think you may have taken my post to be a criticism of MDM, it wasn't at all. This is my favorite video version of Trovatore and possibly my favorite audio version as well.
> 
> It's subtitled on youtube, I highly recommend it. I also bought copies on DVD and CD for my collection in case the youtube version I linked disappears.


Sorry, my bad, another wonderful misinterpretation from my side. But if YOU praise it then I guess I have to watch the full thing ! I really loved watching his Otello!


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## SanyiKocka (May 6, 2020)

Sieglinde said:


> Leonora is clearly in need of glasses. Who in their right mind would choose some tenor (who often can't even hit that high C) over a baritone who tends to be ridiculously sexy?
> 
> I mean.
> 
> ...


The girl who really needs a pair of glasses is Odabella! Odabella, a true heroine, smart, decisive, independent and strong-minded, chooses a man (Forest) that is hot-tempered and unable to think twice. Had Attila not killed her father, she could have married Attila! Even I think she and Ezio will be a better couple.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

SanyiKocka said:


> The girl who really needs a pair of glasses is Odabella! Odabella, a true heroine, smart, decisive, independent and strong-minded, chooses a man (Forest) that is hot-tempered and unable to think twice. Had Attila not killed her father, she could have married Attila! Even I think she and Ezio will be a better couple.


Yes! There are people who think of shipping Odabella with Ezio! I mean, the pairing with Attila is obvious - choosing some tenor over _this man_, really? - but I also think she and Ezio could have been great together, too (yes, the historical Ezio was over sixty and married, but who cares?). The Western Roman Empire would have survived longer with these two to lead it.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

SanyiKocka said:


> The girl who really needs a pair of glasses is Odabella! Odabella, a true heroine, smart, decisive, independent and strong-minded, chooses a man (Forest) that is hot-tempered and unable to think twice. Had Attila not killed her father, she could have married Attila! Even I think she and Ezio will be a better couple.


Although, to be completely fair, Foresto's first scene is gorgeous. The "Cara patria" part is one of the few moments in opera that make me cry almost every time I hear them. But then he just has to go all jealous and stupid and more stupid…


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