# Some operas are just too long!



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

This is my totally subjective view, backed up with no facts whatsoever, so don't ask!

Some operas are just too long!

Les Troyens, Carmen, The Magic Flute, Don Giovanni (I need not even mention the operas by that German guy). Excellent works, treasures of western art indeed, but still too long.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong here: When operas failed at the first public performances, but succeeded after a revision, it was invariably because of cuts, rather than being made longer.

What works do you think are too long, or too short?

Any good stories of cuts and revisions to operas?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

there are certainly some operas that outstay their welcome. I'd put Les trees in that category. I saw Mastersingers the other week and it's far too long and dawn out in places.
I certainly wouldn't say that of Carmen or the Flute or any of Mozart's mature operas are. But then I am totally seduced by the sublime music.


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

The Ring by that German guy is definitely too short. I could easily do with another few hours or so of great music and beautiful text and singing.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

DavidA said:


> there are certainly some operas that outstay their welcome. I'd put Les trees in that category. I saw Mastersingers the other week and it's far too long and dawn out in places.
> I certainly wouldn't say that of Carmen or the Flute or any of Mozart's mature operas are. But then I am totally seduced by the sublime music.


Thankfully my attention span copes fine with Carmen and Flute and yes the music is fantastic. I guess my thought was that they're often considered 'populist' operas due to some great arias, attracting unsuspecting newcomers who find them quite a slog when they're not used to this form of entertainment. (This from my conversations with others who happened to go to these as their first or very occasional operas.)

In the case of Carmen, how sad that Bizet should die at just 36 with lacklustre public and critical response to this work. What treasures he might have continued to give the world of opera!


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

It's interesting that the three Mozart/Da Ponte operas are each exactly 2:55 (though you need to allow for variations between conductors). I certainly don't find any of them to be too long.
On the other hand La Traviata is only 2:15 but I'd gladly have them skip the ballet scene.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

That's the advantage of DVDs and BluRay discs: You can watch for 30 minutes or an hour, and spread the opera out over 3 or 4 evenings. I took three evenings to watch Magic Flute. Whenever I got tired of watching I switched it off and went back to whatever book I was reading at the time. I often do that with movies, also. Dogville is a great movie, but it's 3 hours long, done as a stage play, and I took three evenings to watch it. When you go to a performance, you don't have that luxury, and 2 1/2 or 3 hours is a long time to sit through a performance. (Though as kids we used to go to double features and sit through two movies and a cartoon. I guess that dates me. It was 15 cents for the movie and a dime for the popcorn. I remember the day they raised the price of the movie to a quarter and I didn't have money left over for popcorn. -- Or maybe I'm misremembering and it was 25 cents for the movie and a dime for the popcorn, and then they raised the movie to 35 cents. But I think it was the former.)

So I agree that operas are too long if you are going to a live performance. But if you're listening to or watching a recording, it's just that much more music.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

As much as I love GIULIO CESARE, I believe it can and should be judiciously abridged (as the one performance I saw live probably was...and it was still three hours long!).


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I think _Guillaume Tell_ is too long. Sometimes there are cuts but as the performances start at 18:00 it will probably be about 4½ hours.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

sospiro said:


> I think _Guillaume Tell_ is too long. Sometimes there are cuts but as the performances start at 18:00 it will probably be about 4½ hours.


Last year's Welsh National Opera performance wasn't interminably long, but it certainly had a lot of superfluous scenes for what is fairly straightforward story. It sure was a long wait for the (underwhelming) apple scene!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Alexander said:


> This is my totally subjective view, backed up with no facts whatsoever, so don't ask!
> 
> Some operas are just too long!
> 
> Les Troyens, Carmen, The Magic Flute, Don Giovanni (I need not even mention the operas by that German guy). Excellent works, treasures of western art indeed, but still too long.


I agree it's totally subjective, but I also agree with three out of four on your list.

Carmen is about 20 minutes too long, it's all that darn local color: the children's march, the smuggler's chorus. As I recall, the Opera Comique made Bizet add stuff like that to downplay the racy plot.

Don Giovanni... yep, one or two subplots too many to be given their due: Zerlina & Masetto, Donna Anna & Don Ottavio, Leporello, Donna Elvira. All great stuff and a great spectrum of humanity, but makes for a looong evening - especially if that final moralizing ensemble is included.

Magic Flute... loses its magic a few hours in.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Troyens is about 4 hours too long. yes


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Troyens is about 4 hours too long. yes


The more profound the work, the narrower the audience there is to appreciate it, I suppose.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yes... and _Gone with the Wind_, Lawrence of Arabia, _War & Peace_, the Brothers Karamazov, Dante's _Comedia_, _Hamlet_, etc... are all to long as well, I suppose. Of course that's only true if one has the misguided notion that the whole goal of art is to rush to the end where the meaning of all will be revealed. Might as well just pick up the "highlights" discs or the Cliff Notes. 

I've always been of a different point of view. I thought the value of art was rather like that of life itself. In other words, the value doesn't lie in the conclusion but rather in the experience itself. For some reason I have no problem with spending a few hours listening to the most exquisite music, reading the beautiful language of a well-written book, or watching a beautifully acted/directed/filmed motion picture.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Yes... and _Gone with the Wind_, Lawrence of Arabia, _War & Peace_, the Brothers Karamazov, Dante's _Comedia_, _Hamlet_, etc... are all to long as well, I suppose. Of course that's only true if one has the misguided notion that the whole goal of art is to rush to the end where the meaning of all will be revealed. Might as well just pick up the "highlights" discs or the Cliff Notes.
> 
> I've always been of a different point of view. I thought the value of art was rather like that of life itself. In other words, the value doesn't lie in the conclusion but rather in the experience itself. For some reason I have no problem with spending a few hours listening to the most exquisite music, reading the beautiful language of a well-written book, or watching a beautifully acted/directed/filmed motion picture.


At its first appearance, Nietzsche's _Thus Spake Zarathustra_ sold just twenty copies.

It was, not unlike _Les Troyens_, three hundred and fifty pages too long.

For some people at any rate.


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

Someone caught me listening to Les Troyens!

As much as I love Die Meistersinger I admit it is very long. For me, it's more of an inconvenience to find a block of time to listen to them in one shot.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

opus55 said:


> Someone caught me listening to Les Troyens!
> 
> As much as I love Die Meistersinger I admit it is very long. For me, it's more of an inconvenience to find a block of time to listen to them in one shot.


I_ totally understand_-- especially as busy and involved as all of our lives are.

_;D_


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Parsifal is just the right length for me.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Alexander said:


> ....Any good stories of cuts and revisions to operas?


Yes, they're called Highlights.


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> Yes, they're called Highlights.


Since I cannot allow myself to listen to highlights (no short cuts!) I negotiated to one act at a time.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Troyens is about 4 hours too long. yes




Noooooooooooo .......


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Yes... and _Gone with the Wind_, Lawrence of Arabia, _War & Peace_, the Brothers Karamazov, Dante's _Comedia_, _Hamlet_, etc... are all to long as well, I suppose. Of course that's only true if one has the misguided notion that the whole goal of art is to rush to the end where the meaning of all will be revealed. Might as well just pick up the "highlights" discs or the Cliff Notes.
> 
> I've always been of a different point of view. I thought the value of art was rather like that of life itself. In other words, the value doesn't lie in the conclusion but rather in the experience itself. For some reason I have no problem with spending a few hours listening to the most exquisite music, reading the beautiful language of a well-written book, or watching a beautifully acted/directed/filmed motion picture.


Books are an entirely different matter, because one is not expected to read them at one sitting. It takes me many days (of enjoyment!) to read any of the great Russian novels, or any long book. Even medium books take me a while to read. I put the book down when I feel like doing something else or my time for reading has passed.

But any live performance involves sitting through the whole work. Some people enjoy sitting for 3 or 4 hours. Even with a 20-minute intermission, some folks find sitting for so long tiresome. Even for the most magnificent music, I become restless after 3 hours of sitting. That's why I like recordings. I can spread the enjoyment over two or more sessions. Of course, live music/theater has a quality no recording can capture, so there's a trade-off.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)




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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The children I teach, in spite of their well-known short attention spans, have no problem watching a movie like _Toy Story 2_ for and hour and a half or _Happy Feet_ for two hours. Children. Young Children. Children who have grown up on short cartoons, you tube, Facebook, video games, and other forms of entertainment supposed to undermine their attention spans.

The average film length, based on the top 50 films of a given recent year, was just shy of two hours. Focusing upon the top grossing films of all time (would would suggest films that the audience did not find overly difficult to sit through) the average run-time increases to 159 minutes, or two hours and 39 minutes.

_Hamlet_ generally requires over 4 hours. This is true of Kenneth Branagh's film version (1996) is spite of cuts. Most unedited versions run closer to 5 hours. _Lawrence of Arabia_ runs 228 mintes (just shy of 4 hours). Ben-Hur runs 222 minutes. _Gone with the Wind_ runs 238 minutes. Sir Colin Davis recording of Berlioz _Les Troyens_ runs one minute longer than _Gone with the Wind_ while Rene Jacob's recording of Mozart's _Magic Flute_ clocks in at 2 hours and 47 minutes.

Some works of art demand a greater investment in terms of time than others... but the best are worth the investment. For some reason I get far more out of Wagner's _Der Ring des Nibelungen_ than I do from Rimsky-Korsakov's _Flight of the Bumblebee_ or Chopin's _Minute Waltz._


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Itullian said:


> Troyens is about 4 hours too long. yes


How long since you listened to it? I listened to the whole thing a few weeks ago, and I thought it was great. I recall a few less than interesting sections on the first CD, but the rest is fine.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

starthrower said:


> How long since you listened to it? I listened to the whole thing a few weeks ago, and I thought it was great. I recall a few less than interesting sections on the first CD, but the rest is fine.


When I went to see Troyens at ROH with fellow member sospiro, I would cheerfully have sat through it again straight away. It was hard to be ejected out of the theatre into the cruel reality of London's pubs and streets.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Honestly sometimes too much Vivaldi opera can get to me because of the long winded pyrotechnics.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> The children I teach, in spite of their well-known short attention spans, have no problem watching a movie like _Toy Story 2_ for and hour and a half or _Happy Feet_ for two hours. Children. Young Children. Children who have grown up on short cartoons, you tube, Facebook, video games, and other forms of entertainment supposed to undermine their attention spans.
> 
> The average film length, based on the top 50 films of a given recent year, was just shy of two hours. Focusing upon the top grossing films of all time (would would suggest films that the audience did not find overly difficult to sit through) the average run-time increases to 159 minutes, or two hours and 39 minutes.
> 
> ...


I remember back in the late nineties, some friends and I drove up from San Diego to stay in Hollywood for three nights. The occasion?-- to see_ Lord Jim_ in 70 mm at the Egyptian on Thursday night (_a long film_), _Patton_ in 70 mm at the Egyptian on Friday night (_a long film_; and where one of my friends had a long and spontaneous conversation with the director of _L.A. Confidential-_- I forgot his name-- who was two seats away from him), and_ Lawrence of Arabia_ in 70 mm Friday morning at the Cinerama Dome (now ArcLight Cinemas).

"Long films" immensely worth the duration. "Renaissance art," is what I'd call David Lean's_ Lawrence of Arabia. _

I don't like sitting for long durations, but every one of those films just completely captivated me.

_Mutatis mutandis_ for a good_ Ring _cycle or _Les Troyens_.

Great art is met on its own terms.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Don Giovanni... yep, one or two subplots too many to be given their due: Zerlina & Masetto, Donna Anna & Don Ottavio, Leporello, Donna Elvira. All great stuff and a great spectrum of humanity, but makes for a looong evening - especially if that final moralizing ensemble is included.


Surprisingly I have to disagree 

I love the way DG switches all the time from the Anna-Ottavio drama to fun with Leporello and Elvira and the sensuality in Zerlina-Masetto ending in that ultimate finale. There are just no weaks parts. I also like that last part that was cut from the Vienna premiere. No, it's not too long, it's perfect. Also I like the two Ottavio arias to be performed. There is one scene that is rarely performed, where Zerlina gets naughty with Leporello and ties him to a chair. Maybe we can do without that.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Dongiovanni said:


> Surprisingly I have to disagree
> 
> I love the way DG switches all the time from the Anna-Ottavio drama to fun with Leporello and Elvira and the sensuality in Zerlina-Masetto ending in that ultimate finale. There are just no weaks parts. I also like that last part that was cut from the Vienna premiere. No, it's not too long, it's perfect. Also I like the two Ottavio arias to be performed. *There is one scene that is rarely performed, where Zerlina gets naughty with Leporello and ties him to a chair. Maybe we can do without that.*


Yes I've seen that scene in two productions. The first time I was gobsmacked. Naughty naughty Wolfie.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

So how come then does the almost 5 hour offering of "Don Carlo" fly by so quickly?
Yes there are indulgences in opera -- some dance sequences could easily be cut along with some repetitions of the same words done twice in many arias, but in the main, that's why operas are operas. The form lends itself to excesses and when it comes down to it, I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Posie (Aug 18, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


>


Some operas are too long because too many of the notes are too long. (...not necessarily the case of die Entführung.)


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## wagner4evr (Jul 10, 2010)

expat said:


> The Ring by that German guy is definitely too short. I could easily do with another few hours or so of great music and beautiful text and singing.




The only opera where I found myself getting restless was Meistersinger. Much as I adore it, some editing wouldn't have hurt. I guess my experience is opposite that of the OP. The more I've attended (especially of "that German guy lol") the shorter they feel. Minimum two intermissions please :lol:! That way I can get a second glass of champagne and be flying higher when the finale rolls around.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

expat said:


> The Ring by that German guy is definitely too short. I could easily do with another few hours or so of great music and beautiful text and singing.


Given the amount of backstory in the _Ring_, there could have been a few more operas. If Wagner hadn't spent so much time and energy writing essays, pamphlets and letters, not to mention fleeing from creditors and the police, we might have had "An Ash Tree Grows in Midgaard," "The Amorous Adventures of Wotan," or "Little Hagen: Daddy was a Dwarf, Mommy was a Gotterdammerung Gibich."


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Given the amount of backstory in the _Ring_, there could have been a few more operas. If Wagner hadn't spent so much time and energy writing essays, pamphlets and letters, not to mention fleeing from creditors and the police, we might have had "An Ash Tree Grows in Midgaard," "The Amorous Adventures of Wotan," or "Little Hagen: Daddy was a Dwarf, Mommy was a Gotterdammerung Gibich."


:lol: Or Intrigue in Nibelheim :lol:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Given the amount of backstory in the _Ring_, there could have been a few more operas. If Wagner hadn't spent so much time and energy writing essays, pamphlets and letters, not to mention fleeing from creditors and the police, we might have had "An Ash Tree Grows in Midgaard," "The Amorous Adventures of Wotan," or "Little Hagen: Daddy was a Dwarf, Mommy was a Gotterdammerung Gibich."


Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. . . . . Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Ooooooh my God! Somebody put a stick in my mouth! I'm going into shock.

_So_ 'G'-'D' funny.


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## VinylEupho (Jun 11, 2014)

I totally agree, after a certain point is just not enjoyable anymore.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

I saw Parsifal twice last season. It was long only for the 2nd time.

a fantastic opera!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Parsifal is just the right length for me.


When done well, yes. I saw it at 15 before subtitles at Bayreuth.....waaaaaaaaaaaay too long without knowing what was going on.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I love Mozart but his his operas tend to deter me because of the length.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love Mozart but his his operas tend to deter me because of the length.


For me it's all that recitative. It's fine in the theatre or on video when you're watching the action, but for pure listening I'll cut to the chase and go for highlights - just the real music.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Seattleoperafan said:


> When done well, yes. I saw it at 15 before subtitles at Bayreuth.....waaaaaaaaaaaay too long without knowing what was going on.


:tiphat:

Now that's dedication!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Woodduck said:


> For me it's all that recitative. It's fine in the theatre or on video when you're watching the action, but for pure listening I'll cut to the chase and go for highlights - just the real music.


I listened through Marriage of Figaro today (8 LP sides). That dreaded 'brrriiiiinnngggg' of the harpsichord before the next recitative block is pretty tiresome. I don't necessarily want the highlights package, but can I have a 'just the songs' version?


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

When I was a fit young man, I went to the Summer Festival in Munich (1989).
The traditional closing night to the Festival is _Meistersinger_.
The only ticket I could get was a _stehplatz_ ie. standing-room.
So I stood through the whole performance... Stamina! Sawallish conducted. I didn't find it too long.
cheers,
Graeme


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GraemeG said:


> When I was a fit young man, I went to the Summer Festival in Munich (1989).
> The traditional closing night to the Festival is _Meistersinger_.
> The only ticket I could get was a _stehplatz_ ie. standing-room.
> So I stood through the whole performance... Stamina! Sawallish conducted. I didn't find it too long.
> ...


The fortitude of a true Wagnerian. I might have been capable of that in 1989 as well. No longer [sigh].

:tiphat:


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Well there goes my idea to write an opera based on Samuel Richardson's "Clarissa"...


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Some operas are too long, I admit, but some others I wish they were even longer. I don't like them ending soon!


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

Messiaen's Saint François d'Assise! Boring! Just some rare moments of beauty (i.e. The Angel-Musician from Scene 5)


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

*"Lo bueno, si breve, dos veces bueno; y aun lo malo, si breve, no tan malo." *

Or, in English, "Good things, if short, twice as good. And even bad things, if short, not so bad". This is the saying by the Spanish writer of the 17th century, Baltazar Gracián.

All my life, I have been always in agreement with this. However, what 'long' and 'short' means, at least in terms of Opera, is rather subjective, isn't it?.

Even in some of my favorite operas, I sometimes find there is some room for speeding up things a little bit. I do find the love dialogue in Act 2 of "Tristan und Isolde" kind of a long one. Or I would gladly cut one full scene from Messiaen's "Saint François".

But, then again, many people are madly in love with the full passage of "Tristan" and Yvonne Loriod (Messian's widow) when asked about if "Saint François" was indeed too long, she replied: 'Long?... Oh, no, it's not long at all!. It's so _generous_...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GraemeG said:


> When I was a fit young man, I went to the Summer Festival in Munich (1989).
> The traditional closing night to the Festival is _Meistersinger_.
> The only ticket I could get was a _stehplatz_ ie. standing-room.
> So I stood through the whole performance... Stamina! Sawallish conducted. I didn't find it too long.
> ...


I'm afraid my days for that sort of thing are long past. The spirit may be willing but the legs are now too weak!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Il_Penseroso said:


> Messiaen's Saint François d'Assise! Boring! Just some rare moments of beauty (i.e. The Angel-Musician from Scene 5)


In my mind, I have to ask which are the moments that _aren't_ absolutely gorgeous?

That said, it might be a bit much to listen to in one sitting outside of a full staged performance. I've never bothered to do a straight listen through on disc.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

schigolch said:


> *"Lo bueno, si breve, dos veces bueno; y aun lo malo, si breve, no tan malo." *
> 
> Or, in English, "Good things, if short, twice as good. And even bad things, if short, not so bad". This is the saying by the Spanish writer of the 17th century, Baltazar Gracián.
> 
> ...


Callimachus (300-240 BC) put it even more pithily: μέγα βιβλίον μέγα κακόν - mega biblion, mega kakon. Perhaps if one had to sit through long performances of epic poems imitating Homer, Wagner wouldn't seem so long winded!


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

I saw Parsifal and Don Carlo in one weekend, and went to two Vienna Phil concerts (and Birdland) in between.

Also spent 11 hours at the Met (museum).

When Don Carlo ended, the only thing I thought was "oh no, it's over?"

Greatest Weekend of My Life


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Admiral said:


> I saw Parsifal and Don Carlo in one weekend, and went to two Vienna Phil concerts (and Birdland) in between.
> 
> Also spent 11 hours at the Met (museum).
> 
> ...


Certainly when you get into the swing of things, your stamina increases.
I went to Bayreuth in 1992.
Seven operas in 11(?) days. Or was it ten days?
the Ring, Parsifal, Hollander, Tannhauser.
They have 1 hour intervals, so the operas start at 4pm (Not Hollander: that's just one long sit from 6pm or something).
You just get used to it. It's really the only thing you do that day. Stroll in the morning, lunch, opera.
Although those three bloody Norns at the start of Gotterdammerung will never be better than dull...!
cheers,
Graeme


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

GraemeG said:


> Certainly when you get into the swing of things, your stamina increases.
> I went to Bayreuth in 1992.
> Seven operas in 11(?) days. Or was it ten days?
> the Ring, Parsifal, Hollander, Tannhauser.
> ...


The Bayreuth trip is one that I dream of!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I listened through Marriage of Figaro today (8 LP sides). That dreaded 'brrriiiiinnngggg' of the harpsichord before the next recitative block is pretty tiresome. I don't necessarily want the highlights package, but can I have a 'just the songs' version?


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Admiral said:


> I saw Parsifal and Don Carlo in one weekend, and went to two Vienna Phil concerts (and Birdland) in between.
> 
> Also spent 11 hours at the Met (museum).
> 
> ...


We must have been in town the same weekend, I did Don Carlo and Parsifal back to back in 2013 and had the same experience.

Just last month, I did Meistersinger on Saturday night and William Tell (albeit an "abbreviated" four hour concert version) on Sunday afternoon. Gotta love New York City. Both of these flew by, but for whatever reason Carmen and Don Giovanni almost inevitably drag for me, no matter how good the production (and even though I like Don Giovanni and LOVE Carmen.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Admiral said:


> The Bayreuth trip is one that I dream of!


I used to then the Eurotrash productions took over!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I'm a Hindemith adherent but I'd be a liar if I didn't think that both Mathis der Maler and Die Harmonie der Welt seem to get bogged down in places. The subject matter of both is pretty heavy as it is, but the 3-hour duration of each of them is a double-edged sword - they may need to be lengthy in order to let the story unfurl, but in places there just doesn't seem to be sufficient light and shade in the music to carry them along.

Come to think of it, perhaps I've got the wrong idea here - maybe the operas are the right length, but are just too dull?


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