# Blind comparison - Brahms Tragic Overture Op.81



## Merl

Ok, so here's a new comparative study for you. I was gonna use a chamber piece but there was little interest so it's another orchestral piece. Here's *8 recordings of Brahm's Tragic Overture Op.81*. Like last time, there's a real mix of performances here from the 50's onwards Some of the recordings are mono, some live and although a couple may be more recognisable most aren't very obvious. These are not my 8 favourite recordings of the Tragic Overture but there is at least one of my personal favourites in this collection. Some of these recordings aren't from dedicated symphony cycles and a few are rare (The Tragic Overture is a popular makeweight on orchestral releases and especially Brahms single symphony discs)! All are real CD releases from record labels featuring professional conductors and orchestras (I'm not trying to trick anyone or make anyone look silly here, so please join in)!

However, if you know the identity of these recordings please don't reveal conductors or orchestras but feel free to rank them in order from favourite to least favourite and maybe say what you thought of the recording, performance, etc *or* just make a quick observation of at least one performance you liked. This is an inclusive not exclusive game! Some people on are professional musicians, some read music but there's many like me who don't read music but just know what they like (dynamics, excitement, etc) so why not spare some time and make a quick comment?

In a while, I'll reveal all the recordings used and highlight any recordings that people particularly liked. In the interests of discovery (and fun) try not to cheat. You might find a recording by a performer you hadn't previously heard or rated.

Fot those wishing to follow the score the link is below
http://www.freesheetmusic.net/brahms/Tragic_Overture.pdf

And here's the Dropbox link to the recordings.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/viy7ko6m9j82xnv/AADEFQm6eAdFuQ4v6W9upxKBa?dl=0

Enjoy!


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## Kiki

Have to confess I usually find less affinity with Brahms’ music than with other composers’. Often I find it difficult to make sense of where the music is heading. But then I have also learnt over the years to stay curious and humoured about such things, not limited to music. One gains more in life this way! .... so I am going through these eight. So far, after one iteration, D seems to be the most compact and expressive, but I need to listen to them a few more times to be sure. By the way I think I know A.


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## Guest

I'll do my best to participate in this comparison, but it might take me a while as I'm currently having to stay in an Airbnb after my kitchen caught fire.


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## Kiki

Oh no..... Are you OK?


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## Merl

shirime said:


> I'll do my best to participate in this comparison, but it might take me a while as I'm currently having to stay in an Airbnb after my kitchen caught fire.


That really is 'tragic'.


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## Kiki

I'll take a stab first.  I think all of them started brilliantly, after that they diverged quite a bit.

D. Ranked 1st.
Expressive. Compact. Dramatic. High-voltage. 

E. 2nd.
Operatic. Heart-on-sleeve. Turbulent.

F. 3rd.
The notes are dancing. Musical.

A. 4th.
Lean and mean. No excess. No sentimentality.
If only it had modern sound, it could have been my number one.

G. 5th.
Slow and grand. Great stuff, but not my cup of tea.

H. 6th.
Elegant and musical enough. Overall a bit subdued (could be due to the muddy recording).

C. 7th.
Slow and under-powered. The quieter music is beautiful though.

B. 8th.
After the promising first theme, everybody joins a summer boat trip on a river canal.
A picturesque backdrop. Nice gentle breeze. The sun is not too bright.
The most tormented thing is the occasional spill of beer.
Pretty cheerful in fact, but I had expected something more devastating.
C & H leaved me feeling unfulfilled. B confused me.


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## chesapeake bay

Kiki said:


> I'll take a stab first.  I think all of them started brilliantly, after that they diverged quite a bit.
> 
> D. Ranked 1st.
> Expressive. Compact. Dramatic. High-voltage.
> 
> E. 2nd.
> Operatic. Heart-on-sleeve. Turbulent.
> 
> F. 3rd.
> The notes are dancing. Musical.
> 
> A. 4th.
> Lean and mean. No excess. No sentimentality.
> If only it had modern sound, it could have been my number one.
> 
> G. 5th.
> Slow and grand. Great stuff, but not my cup of tea.
> 
> H. 6th.
> Elegant and musical enough. Overall a bit subdued (could be due to the muddy recording).
> 
> C. 7th.
> Slow and under-powered. The quieter music is beautiful though.
> 
> B. 8th.
> After the promising first theme, everybody joins a summer boat trip on a river canal.
> A picturesque backdrop. Nice gentle breeze. The sun is not too bright.
> The most tormented thing is the occasional spill of beer.
> Pretty cheerful in fact, but I had expected something more devastating.
> C & H leaved me feeling unfulfilled. B confused me.


Thats a very good summation, I'll just rearrange them in accordance with my opinion, hope you don't mind 

1) E. "Operatic. Heart-on-sleeve. Turbulent." This one kept my attention best
2) D. "Expressive. Compact. Dramatic. High-voltage." 
3) A. "Lean and mean. No excess. No sentimentality." The performance is good enough that the sound doesnt bother me
4) F. "The notes are dancing. Musical."
5) G. "Slow and grand. Great stuff, but not my cup of tea."
6) H. "Elegant and musical enough. Overall a bit subdued" 
7) C. "Slow and under-powered. The quieter music is beautiful though."
8) B. "After the promising first theme..."

the first 3 I would be happy to listen to again, the others I wouldn't bother with, err maybe the 4th one too, hehe


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## Josquin13

The first one is so impulsive. I don't think I know that recording. The most impulsive or impetuous conductors that I can recall hearing in the Tragic Overture are Toscanini, Stokowski, Klemperer, and Monteux live in San Francisco. But surprisingly, I'm not sure any of those versions are quite as driven as your clip. At least I don't recall any of those conductors letting the drums dominate to the same extent as your conductor does in clip one, they really come to the forefront--though I suppose it could be a live recording by one of them.

Kurt Sanderling similarly brings the drums to the forefront, in his recording with the Staatskapelle Dresden, but your clip definitely isn't Sanderling. (Nevertheless, Sanderling's Tragic Overture is one of my all-time favorite versions: 



)

Clip two sounds like Kempe?

Clip three sounds like Carl Schuricht and the LSO, yes?

Clip four is excellent. It's driven, in a good way. Yes, this is great Brahms conducting. My guess is that it's one of my favorite Brahms conductors, Eugen Jochum?--maybe his London Philharmonic version?

Clip 8 sounds like Klemperer and the Philharmonia????

That's all I have time for right now .... to be continued.

P.S. Oops. I just read your opening post more carefully, are we not supposed to try to guess which conductors & performances these are? Sorry. I've not done this before. Should I delete my post?

I liked clip 4 best, or D.


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## Merl

No don't delete anything. You could be wayyy of the mark (or maybe not..... I'm not saying yet) ! No problems in you guessing, Josquin13. I only said don't say anything if you KNOW any of these recordings. I'm fine with guesses.


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Clip two sounds like Kempe?
> 
> Clip three sounds like Carl Schuricht and the LSO, yes?


No and no. Lol.....................

Clip B is a newer than it seems. As is C.  Btw, Kiki, thanks for your excellent summations. Im not saying whether I agree or not but they were great comments.


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## Kiki

Josquin13 said:


> ...
> Kurt Sanderling similarly brings the drums to the forefront, in his recording with the Staatskapelle Dresden, but your clip definitely isn't Sanderling. (Nevertheless, Sanderling's Tragic Overture is one of my all-time favorite versions:
> 
> 
> 
> )
> ...


Feeling intrigued, I put on Sanderling's 1972/Dresden recording, not having listened to it for years, and what a pleasant surprise. First of all, he's quick! (did I play the wrong rip?) Then, there is a sense of consistently pulsating forward from start to finish (even during the quieter development section). Then there is the bass line that is clearly audible, which IMHO adds so much as undercurrent to the music. (Why are some conductors (and engineers) so obsessed with dimming the bass line to make it inaudible?) This would have become one of my top ranked choices if it were included in the list.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> Feeling intrigued, I put on Sanderling's 1972/Dresden recording, not having listened to it for years, and what a pleasant surprise. First of all, he's quick! (did I play the wrong rip?) Then, there is a sense of consistently pulsating forward from start to finish (even during the quieter development section). Then there is the bass line that is clearly audible, which IMHO adds so much as undercurrent to the music. (Why are some conductors (and engineers) so obsessed with dimming the bass line to make it inaudible?) This would have become one of my top ranked choices if it were included in the list.


Sanderling's Dresden Brahms recordings are wonderful. You're right that I didn't include Sanderling's Tragic Overture which is superb but there's another great Brahms conductor (leading an inspired performance in one of these) There's some big names in this list, btw.


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## Becca

There is no doubting who H is, it's ...did you really think that I'd put it here?...


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## Merl

Becca said:


> There is no doubting who H is, it's ...did you really think that I'd put it here?...


Really? You may be surprised, Becca.


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## Becca

I would be surprised if I would be surprised, but then surprises can be a good thing.


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## Merl

Go on then, Becca, who do you think Recording H is? Who does it sound like? You may well be wrong.


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## brahms4

A sounds like Toscanini.


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## Josquin13

I think it's Klemperer.


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## Merl

D seems the most popular at the moment but E is close behind. Many like the forceful A and F and G are rated but not for eveyone. H, B and C seem the most unpopular. Is this what you think, Becca?


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## Becca

I haven't had chance to check out others yet but I would agree that H is probably the Klemperer/Philharmonia, which I have. Certainly the timings match as does the way that Klemperer divided the strings. As if that weren't enough, wouldn't you expect Klemperer to turn in one of the fastest performances? :lol:


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## Josquin13

I'm still trying to figure out if one of them is Karajan, so I can dislike it. But I don't think any of them are Karajan--except for maybe C (or G)? C sounds like a Germanic conductor to me, as it's on the spacious side, but not slow enough to be Giulini or Celi. My first thought was that it's Karl Böhm (on a more energetic day), then possibly Carl Schuricht, but it could very well be Karajan. I don't think it's Masur, however, who was more attentive & sensitive to orchestral detail & nuance than this conductor.

I liked H!--though D has everything that I could wish for in a Brahms performance & is more exciting (it had better not be Karajan): I hear a bit of slimmed down Furtwängler in D, but in good stereo sound... which means it's probably Eugen Jochum, as already mentioned. Fürtwangler was Jochum's idol, and to me, Jochum's conducting possesses the same kind of depth of musical insight, but presented in a slightly more restrained way, and not as highly expressionistic as Fürtwangler--yet just as exciting, maybe even more so: 




If B isn't Kempe, could it be Solti & the CSO? (By the way, Kempe & the Berlin Philharmonic are very, very good in the Tragic Overture--extremely dynamic, & I expect a bit more so than Solti: 



)

I don't overly care for G, though it's certainly not bad. My guess is it's Bernstein & the VPO. I don't always care for late Bernstein in Vienna (except for his Academic Festival Overture, which is very good: 



). But it could be Karajan or Böhm too, since its so spacious ...

Now I'm wondering if I've got anything right?... maybe I should shut up.


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## Merl

Fabulous insights, Josquin13 and maybe you have some things right, maybe not.


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## Kiki

I've got recording A so I won't say anything about that.

D, E, F and G fit the impression that I have for an older generation of conductors who could be (although not always) articulated but exciting , e.g. Szell and Jochum. OK, maybe Muti as well from a younger generation. (Could he be G?) Of the current generation, I can't think of anyone.

There is certainly no Karajan here. (Unless I'm very much mistaken! :lol In all of his four commercial recordings that I've got, he tended to turn it into a quasi-hybrid-Wagnerian/Straussian tone poem. Love it or loath it, it almost sounds like a different piece of music from those included here.

With B, and to a less degree C and H, there is something in there that seems so introvert to me, the impression that Haitink and Abbado always give me.

Over-generalising I know, but hey, throw in a bunch of big names and I'm bound to hit one, right?


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## hustlefan

I like E the best, followed by A, G, D, F, C, B. H has a cut of two measures near the beginning that rules it out for me.

A - live in concert, good mono sound but with restricted dynamic range, timpani too loud, fast and angry opening, secondary theme slightly slower, dolce theme at m. 239 not very dolce, no pianissimos rank=2
B - jaunty opening lacks gravitas, everything is at same tempo as written but too literal, lacks expressive variety, molto piu moderato at m. 208 too fast, dolce section mistakenly sounds like a scherzo, return to second theme very expressive rank=7
C - emphatic opening a little too slow, good dynamic range in subsidiary parts, secondary theme slightly slower, dynamics closely observed but lacks expressive variety, molto piu moderato taken slowly as marked but not very expressive so it seems boring, return to second theme very expressive rank=6
D - urgent opening a little too fast but better than too slow, secondary theme taken in tempo as written, strings somewhat harsh and lack warmth, everything in tempo but lacking in softer moods, urgency seems to be the only mood rank=4
E - opening has nice expressive variety, sound emphasizes treble too much so darker moods shortchanged, more nuanced than others, middle section sounds suitably spooky, return to secondary theme in tempo and avoids sentimentality rank=1
F - staccatos sound too jaunty, well-played by orchestra, secondary theme has a little portamento, overall mood is too optimistic, lacks gravitas and expressive variety rank=5
G - secondary theme slightly slower, good expressive variety, main tempo too slow, middle section too fast, return to secondary theme very expressive, best of the slow, heavy entries rank=3
H - cut between middle of measure 14 and middle of measure 16, fast and urgent, not much expressive variety, middle section too fast, cut rules it out rank=8, without cut rank=3


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## Merl

Kiki and Brahms4 hit on A a while back so i'll give you that one. It's Toscanini from this set and it is a no-holds barred account. The timpani is rocking.


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## Merl

hustlefan said:


> I like E the best, followed by A, G, D, F, C, B. H has a cut of two measures near the beginning that rules it out for me.
> H - cut between middle of measure 14 and middle of measure 16


Good spot on that cut. I never noticed it but it is in the recording. H seems to be causing the most consternation but it isn't Klemperer.


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## MarkW

I normally don't do these things because of time limitations, but I think I will try listening to as many as I can stomach. I hate to admit it, but although I love Brahms, the TO is my least favorite of his orchestral works. I'm never quite sure what it's saying or what impelled him to write it (other than to make a lot of money as a 10-minute filler for orchestral concerts). I am forever equating it to Beethoven's Coriolan, which says much the same thing, and thinking that the world doesn't really need two of them.


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## Merl

MarkW said:


> I normally don't do these things because of time limitations, but I think I will try listening to as many as I can stomach. I hate to admit it, but although I love Brahms, the TO is my least favorite of his orchestral works. I'm never quite sure what it's saying or what impelled him to write it (other than to make a lot of money as a 10-minute filler for orchestral concerts). I am forever equating it to Beethoven's Coriolan, which says much the same thing, and thinking that the world doesn't really need two of them.


Yay, the more the merrier, MarkW. I'm not going to give the rest away yet. I've given away Toscanini for Recording A but that's it. You don't have to listen to all of them, you can comment on one you fancy randomly. Thanks for getting involved. This one has been a slow burner but it's ended up being quite popular.


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## brahms4

I own E and it is my favorite of these clips.He was great at Brahms IMHO.


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## Merl

brahms4 said:


> I own E and it is my favorite of these clips.He was great at Brahms IMHO.


Agreed! But Ssshhhhh for now!


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## Merl

As it's another not so popular choice here i'll give you the details for Recording B. It's a rather tame makeweight from Fischer's very good Account of the 2nd Symphony. The symphony comes off much better than the Tragic Overture (believe me)!


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## Kiki

No way I could have guessed that.... but then Iván Fischer have also done some _nice_ Mahlers/Beethovens, and a similar kind of _niceness_ is apparent here.


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## Merl

Another one that got mixed reviews was this one. Recording C was from this set. Some people were close but not quite on the ball. A couple said Solti. Nearly but Solti does it better, IMO.


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## Josquin13

I missed on those two. Interesting that I saw C as a "spacious" "Germanic" conductor, who wasn't especially attentive or sensitive to orchestral detail and nuance. I don't know Daniel Barenboim's conducting well, but have heard it described as "imprecise", and "ludicrously self styled" in the great tradition of Wilhelm Furtwangler, who was his idol. I don't know whether those are fair criticisms or not. Although I agree that Barenboim's early conducting on his DG recordings was "imprecise", but those were made shortly after he first picked up a baton, & he must have developed as a conductor since then. Other than a few Mozart PCs on Teldec & one Wagner opera on DVD (which I only caught a portion of), the CSO Brahms Tragic Overture is the only other recording I've heard from Barenboim, as a conductor, since his early DG days.

As for Ivan Fischer, again, I don't know his conducting well, except for some Bartok on Philips, which I liked, & a Mahler 9th on Channel Classics (which I didn't overly care for). I mentioned Solti & Kempe as my guesses for B--although I decided that Kempe was more dynamic (& electrifying) in the Tragic overture (after having re-listened to Kempe's Tragic Overture with the Berlin Philharmonic on You Tube). Well, at least I got the Hungarian nationality correct! But I don't expect Fischer & Solti have too much else in common as conductors, otherwise. Hopefully, I've gotten Klemperer & Jochum correct...


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Hopefully, I've gotten Klemperer & Jochum correct...


Although one of these recordings is very Klemperer-esque (H) it isn't Klemperer! Recording H (with the cut) is this one. Btw, i do rate Saraste's Brahms cycle.


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## Josquin13

I'm wrong again. That is surprising. I would never have guessed a Finnish conductor. I only know Saraste's Sibelius, which I like a lot, & some of his Mahler. I expect he must have listened carefully to Klemperer's Brahms--perhaps in his youth, and liked it a good deal, because it is quite similar, as are the timings. Do you find the same is true of Saraste's cycle of Brahms Symphonies 1-4?

Now I suppose you'll tell us that D isn't Jochum...


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## Merl

Josquin13 said:


> Now I suppose you'll tell us that D isn't Jochum...


No, you got bang-on, Josquin13. An excellent Tragic Overture from a superb Brahms cycle and is was similarly popular in this survey. Dare I suggest that I prefer most of his LPO accounts to his DG ones?


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## Merl

Recording E was similarly popular amd no surprise as again it was from a classic Brahms cycle from Bruno Walter and the Columbia SO. You folks nailed it with the descriptions, btw. I love Walter's Brahms. 'Classy' is a word I'd use to describe it simply.


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## Josquin13

Phew! I finally got one right. I was wondering if Bruno Walter might turn up on your list. I agree, Jochum and Walter are two great Brahms conductors. I also agree that Jochum's later EMI years were special, and tend to get underrated in comparison to his DG recordings. No better examples than his EMI Brahms & Beethoven Symphony cycles. However, the DG mono Brahms is very good too. I'm glad to have both, though yes, especially the better recorded cycle on EMI.


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## Merl

Oops, almost forgot the last two recordings...... Well...... Recording F (with the 'dancing notes') was from this set by Manze. It's a nice set. A little too gracious at times, for me, but beautifully played.









Finally, was Recording G. The broadest of all, I was sure someone would nail it but although the conductor's name was mentioned it wasn't nailed down to Recording G...... Which was....... Karajan and the BPO from the Karajan Symphony Edition (pretty sure it's in his 80s Brahms set) . Josquin13 will be crying into his cup of tea at this moment. Lol.









Hope you've enjoyed this one and thanks for all the comments. I'll do another one in a month or so... Just make a few suggestions for a piece to use (any chamber or orchestral snippet around the 10min mark). Thanks again. Wonderful insights from you all.

To recap;
A Toscanini / Philharmonia (live) 
B Fischer / Budapest
C Barenboim / CSO
D Jochum / LPO
E Walter / Columbia SO
F Manze / Helsinborg
G Karajan / BPO
H Saraste / WDR


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## Kiki

I am shocked. My apology for incorrectly saying there was no Karajan.

Finding this hard to believe, I checked all 4 of Karajan's recordings that I've got. The closest match to G is actually 1977, not 1983. Performance wise, G & 1977 are similar enough; Recording wise, they sound different. 

Therefore I checked the spectrograms...

Remember G has lost bits so it will never be an exact match to 1977, but to cut a long story short, the frequencies and timings on their spectrograms are similar enough to be considered the same performance. 

My only rant is that, according to the spectrograms, G has got a longer ring out at the end (two seconds or so) than my CD of 1977. I doubt G's MP3 encoding would "add" this; so it must be due to DG's mastering for the symphony edition vs the complete edition.


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## Merl

Kiki said:


> I am shocked. My apology for incorrectly saying there was no Karajan.
> 
> Finding this hard to believe, I checked all 4 of Karajan's recordings that I've got. The closest match to G is actually 1977, not 1983. Performance wise, G & 1977 are similar enough; Recording wise, they sound different.
> 
> Therefore I checked the spectrograms...
> 
> Remember G has lost bits so it will never be an exact match to 1977, but to cut a long story short, the frequencies and timings on their spectrograms are similar enough to be considered the same performance.
> 
> My only rant is that, according to the spectrograms, G has got a longer ring out at the end (two seconds or so) than my CD of 1977. I doubt G's MP3 encoding would "add" this; so it must be due to DG's mastering for the symphony edition vs the complete edition.


Thanks, Kiki. I'd not checked the box to see if it was the 70s or 80s performance so assumed it was from the 80s set, initially as it was a broad reading, too. I'll have a look when I get back from work today. Thanks for your input, Kiki.


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## Merl

Btw, Kiki, I've just checked the CD inserts and it is the remastered 1977 performance from Karajan. Definitely not the 1983 version (I played it to check and it's slightly different).


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## Josquin13

"Josquin13 will be crying into his cup of tea at this moment. Lol."

Actually, I did mention that G could be Karajan, because it was "so spacious", twice! Although yes my first impression was that it was bad Bernstein. Oh well. Surely I can be forgiven, since I never listen to Karajan's Brahms. (I don't think I've heard it since the 1980s on LP.) Even so, I should have been able to tell the difference between the Berlin Philharmonic & the Vienna Philharmonic! Now that's embarrassing, as there are discernible differences. 

Thanks for the thread, Merl, I enjoyed it! Hopefully, next time, I'll do a bit better... but at least I didn't like Karajan's performance! Now that would have been really embarrassing, considering how often I've expressed my distaste for his conducting over the years. And, interestingly enough, my favorite did turn out to be Eugen Jochum's, who actually is one of my favorite Brahms conductors (along with Kertesz, Sanderling, Monteux, Kempe, Haitink, Klemperer, Masur, & Walter). So, all is well.


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## Kiki

Merl said:


> ...
> Hope you've enjoyed this one and thanks for all the comments. I'll do another one in a month or so... Just make a few suggestions for a piece to use (any chamber or orchestral snippet around the 10min mark). Thanks again. Wonderful insights from you all.
> ...


Thanks again Merl for setting this up. It's been fun, although a bit embarrassing for me this time. :lol:

Those pieces suggested in the last comparison thread sound fine to me.

I'd also love to do a Berg or Webern piece but I wonder whether there is a sufficient variety of recordings available.

How about one of the Chopin ballades or Polonaises? These should fit the criteria well.

Oh something with a happier mood would also be good after listening repeatedly to the Tragic Overture.... back to Capriccio Italien then?


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## MarkW

Okay I did it. And I'm afraid that's enough Tragic Overtures to last me the rest of my life (which I'm well along into). Still not my favorite Brahms, and none of these was enough to make it so -- nor did I try to guess conductors because not familiar with enough TOs. Thanks anyway.


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