# Sibelius Symphony No. 8



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I can't recall reading any evidence that Sibelius actually prepared any sketches for this 8th Symphony, or that these sketches were destroyed, in a fireplace or anywhere else, by him or his wife. Am I wrong about this? Please help me out!


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Ken - I think there is only anecdotal stories about his 8th symphony. It seems by the evidence that he did intend to write another symphony but no manuscript exists to our knowledge. It is possible that some or all of it was written and destroyed by Sibelius but we have no proof. It will forever be a mystery why Tapiola would be his last known work and why for 30 years after he never published another thing. I am a huge Sibelius fan and many times I think about what to us seems like 30 wasted years but who knows? Maybe something more important in relation to his eternal soul was being wrought out.

Kevin


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Sibelius is known to have burned a number of his manuscripts at his villa Ainola outside of Helsinki in his later years . But it's impossible to know whether an 8th symphony was among these .
His wife Aino said that he felt greatly relieved and the depression to which he was prone was greatly eased .


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

A few possible fragments were reported here:
http://www.artsjournal.com/slippedd...ents-of-sibeliuss-destroyed-8th-symphony.html
but the symphony seems to have been mainly a dreamy project of his.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Tino Virtanen (editor-in-chief of the collected edition of Sibelius) says that there are extensive drafts found in archives donated by Sibelius's family to the Univesity of Helsinki that are quite likely to be part of sketches for the 8th symphony. A reconstruction of the symphony could be achieved from these if Virtanen is correct.


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Tino Virtanen (editor-in-chief of the collected edition of Sibelius) says that there are extensive drafts found in archives donated by Sibelius's family to the Univesity of Helsinki that are quite likely to be part of sketches for the 8th symphony. A reconstruction of the symphony could be achieved from these if Virtanen is correct.


Yea, i remember reading that too.


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## jtbell (Oct 4, 2012)

It seems to be fairly well established that Sibelius sent the first movement to his copyist, Paul Voigt:

Sibelius letters unearthed from document case (from the newspaper _Helsingin Sanomat_, 2011)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

jtbell said:


> It seems to be fairly well established that Sibelius sent the first movement to his copyist, Paul Voigt:
> 
> Sibelius letters unearthed from document case (from the newspaper _Helsingin Sanomat_, 2011)


A very interesting article, thanks! But the references to the 8th seem a combination of wishful thinking and wild surmise.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

There was most surely, at least, bits and pieces of the 8th and, likely, a completed symphony. In other words, it was not something that Sibelius only talked about. He worked on it...or at least parts of it, for some time. No doubt, whatever he had, be it fragments, sketches, individual movements or a whole work, were destroyed in that fireplace.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Tapkaara said:


> There was most surely, at least, bits and pieces of the 8th and, likely, a completed symphony.QUOTE]
> 
> That's what we call in the trade a WAG.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> I can't recall reading any evidence that Sibelius actually prepared any sketches for this 8th Symphony, or that these sketches were destroyed, in a fireplace or anywhere else, by him or his wife. Am I wrong about this? Please help me out!


Just listening to this now...

Sibelius: A Symphony That Burned


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Listen to what? PAGE NOT FOUND.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Listen to what? PAGE NOT FOUND.


Apologies - correct site:

Sibelius: A Symphony That Burned


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Sibelius: A Symphony That Burned



> The most notorious 'lost work' in classical music: rediscovered? Peggy Reynolds tells the story of Jean Sibelius's infamous Eighth Symphony - with extracts from new musical fragments discovered last year, performed exclusively for the programme.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

First chord of the fragment is immediately very interesting: Fmaj6

D
C
A
F
D
Middle C
A
F


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Were there a_ tenth_ of the number of Bigfoot searchers, UFO sighters, and vampire hunters out on the trail to find the Sibelius 8th, we'd have been hearing the work for decades already. I do wish that nut cases would turn their attentions to worthwhile search efforts rather than bogus fantasies. Alas....










Just swimming along humming the Sibelius 8th ...


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Perhaps the fact that Sibelius destroyed the work proves that his 7th and Tapiola could not be surpassed.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Please note: 7 days left to listen


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

If it existed and Sibelius destroyed it, one can only assume that he didn't want it preserved, and the most obvious reason is that he felt it fell below the standard of his other later works. Elgar made a similar request for his 3rd Symphony, and having heard the Payne 'elaboration' several times now, I think he was justified.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Sometimes, these completions work and we are all the richer for it:

Puccini - Turandot
Bartok - piano concerto 3
Mahler - symphony 10
Tchaikovsky - symphony 7
and more...

I was skeptical of the Elgar 3rd at first - then I had the opportunity to play it. Is it "real" Elgar? Of course not. No one could write for the orchestra like he did. But it is a powerful, beautiful work, whoever wrote it. When Sir Colin Davis took it up, that was good enough for me. Too bad Bernstein wouldn't take up the Mahler/Cooke 10th.

Things like the Beethoven 10th, the complete Schubert "Unfinished" just don't work for me at all. They don't sound like their respective composers one bit.

In Sibelius' case of the 8th, I accept that he wrote it, then torched it. We'll never know if he was justified or paranoid. But in the case of so many works that needed some help to get finished, I am forever grateful.


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## Josquin13 (Nov 7, 2017)

The subject of a 8th Symphony by Sibelius preoccupied conductor Eugene Ormandy, who asked Sibelius about it on numerous occasions, and had the following to say about the mystery:

"The Eighth Symphony is a mysterious subject. Everytime I saw Sibelius — and I saw him four or five times, perhaps more — in his home about twenty-seven miles away from the city of Helsinki, I asked him about it, sometimes very tactfully, sometimes quite directly. And his response was always the same: he became very upset and nervous and quickly changed the subject. He seemed to be disturbed that anyone should bring up the subject of the Eighth Symphony. His son-in-law, Jussi Jalas, a very fine conductor and a good friend of mine, had told me that he was convinced that there was an Eighth Symphony. On the other hand, Sibelius’ oldest daughter assured me that there was no such symphony. If there was one, he destroyed it. Sibelius is reputed to have said to intimate friends, “If I cannot write a better symphony than my Seventh, then it shall be my last.” Apparently he was not satisfied — if he wrote an Eighth Symphony — with what he had done. At any rate, he seems to have enjoyed the mystery surrounding the existence of the work.

Naturally, I always told him that if and when his Eighth Symphony was ready for performance I hoped he would give me the opportunity to give it its world premiere. There was never any response: his fine, nervous hands would begin to tremble even more and he would look away with a troubled expression. Out of my admiration and respect I would never press the matter, although I felt puzzled and disappointed. Twice I went to his house with Olin Downes, who was one of his greatest admirers and had written a book about him. Mr. Downes promised me that he would bring up the subject, because I told him I didn’t dare to anymore. But he got the same reply, or rather non-reply: a strange twist in Sibelius’ face, a nervous intensity in his eyes, and the trembling hands. I said in an aside to Mr. Downes, “We’d better drop the subject.” We did. It shall always remain a tantalizing mystery for me.

As wonderful as it was to meet Sibelius for the first time, it was even more wonderful to have been able to introduce him, some years later, to the members of The Philadelphia Orchestra. That occurred in June 1955, and there is a rather touching story connected with the meeting. For some months previous I had been in correspondence with Dr. Ringbom, the director of the Helsinki Philharmonic, in order to arrange for the orchestra to meet the master while we were in Finland on tour. Sibelius was very ill at the time, very old and fragile and tormented by ear trouble. The day we were to go to his secluded villa at Järvenpää arrived, and though it was cold and raw and raining, the men were as excited and eager as children. And I was as excited as any of them. Imagine my disappointment when Dr. Ringbom called to confess that when he had written to me in Philadelphia to say that everything was arranged he had not mentioned that Sibelius himself knew nothing about the projected visit. He had only spoken to Mrs. Sibelius, who had agreed at the time but now flatly said no, her husband was too ill to receive us.

There we were, in Helsinki, thousands of miles from home and within twenty-seven miles of Sibelius. “Dr. Ringbom,” I said, “you must not disappoint us. Please call up Mrs. Sibelius and explain to her that this orchestra, from the very earliest days with Stokowski, has done as much to spread Sibelius’ fame as any orchestra in the world. All they ask in return is to see him.” It worked.

My wife and I were having tea with him, and the orchestra came in two buses. Even then he hadn’t been told that they were coming. He was so sensitive — perhaps the most sensitive, shy man I ever met in my life — that the knowledge that he was to meet 110 musicians would probably have incapacitated him if he were given too much time to think about it. And those poor colleagues of mine were standing out in the cold rain with thin raincoats on, waiting! Finally I took the bull by the horns and said, “Mr. Sibelius, do you know that the entire Philadelphia Orchestra, the orchestra that played your music when nobody else did, is waiting outside, hoping to meet you? Would you just go out on the balcony and say hello to them?”

“But I cannot speak English well enough,” he protested. “They will not understand me.”

“Speak German, they’ll understand you. Just look at them, don’t say anything.”

And so he got his heavy winter coat and hat — there are pictures of that visit — and came out with me. “Gentlemen,” I said, “Mr. Sibelius needs no introduction.” They applauded him and bravoed him until I had to tell them, “Gentlemen, Mr. Sibelius is not well, but he wanted to come out and say a few words to you.” And then he told them, with the beautiful simplicity of his few English words, how grateful he was to them for playing his music so nobly. At last his oldest daughter pulled him back, saying, “Daddy you’re going to catch cold.” Fortunately, he didn’t catch cold, but we were worried that he might, for it was bitter that day.

He died two years later, in 1957. And I think today we perform his music better for the memory of those few minutes when he came out on his porch and spoke to us. It was an experience that none of us will ever forget."


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I can appreciate why people take an interest but I for one am glad it doesn't exist. If it wasn't good enough for Sibelius why should it be good enough for me? The Seventh is a brilliant conclusion to his symphonic output, and for me that means closure.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> Listen to what? PAGE NOT FOUND.


Because it burned.......


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

manyene said:


> If it existed and Sibelius destroyed it, one can only assume that he didn't want it preserved, and the most obvious reason is that he felt it fell below the standard of his other later works. .


Or, he could have been so drunk that he tossed it in the fire mistaking it for old wrapping for salted herring. He was known to down a fifth of vodka before lunch, when the really serious drinking would commence


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## Lundmanuskript (May 10, 2020)

Dear all, regarding the 8th symphony, this could maybe be interesting: https://www.amazon.com/roman-den-odödliga-Swedish-ebook/dp/B088D1F665/


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## Guest002 (Feb 19, 2020)

Josquin13 said:


> He was so sensitive - perhaps the most sensitive, shy man I ever met in my life


I found that quoted story fascinating. I found the idea that Sibelius was sensitive and shy even more so: I don't know his biography at all well, but the mental image I have of him is stocky-jawed, bald. Well, not just a mental image either:









I always found that look a bit intimidating! The idea that underneath all that was an intensely sensitive, shy man is rather surprising (to me), and a bit of a revelation. Thanks for sharing that.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Eugene Ormandy's commentary on Sibelius and the possibility of an 8th symphony:

"The Eighth Symphony is a mysterious subject. Everytime I saw Sibelius — and I saw him four or five times, perhaps more — in his home about twenty-seven miles away from the city of Helsinki, I asked him about it, sometimes very tactfully, sometimes quite directly. And his response was always the same: he became very upset and nervous and quickly changed the subject. He seemed to be disturbed that anyone should bring up the subject of the Eighth Symphony. His son-in-law, Jussi Jalas, a very fine conductor and a good friend of mine, had told me that he was convinced that there was an Eighth Symphony. On the other hand, Sibelius’ oldest daughter assured me that there was no such symphony. If there was one, he destroyed it. Sibelius is reputed to have said to intimate friends, “If I cannot write a better symphony than my Seventh, then it shall be my last.” Apparently he was not satisfied — if he wrote an Eighth Symphony — with what he had done. At any rate, he seems to have enjoyed the mystery surrounding the existence of the work.

"Naturally, I always told him that if and when his Eighth Symphony was ready for performance I hoped he would give me the opportunity to give it its world premiere. There was never any response: his fine, nervous hands would begin to tremble even more and he would look away with a troubled expression. Out of my admiration and respect I would never press the matter, although I felt puzzled and disappointed. Twice I went to his house with Olin Downes, who was one of his greatest admirers and had written a book about him. Mr. Downes promised me that he would bring up the subject, because I told him I didn’t dare to anymore. But he got the same reply, or rather non-reply: a strange twist in Sibelius’ face, a nervous intensity in his eyes, and the trembling hands. I said in an aside to Mr. Downes, “We’d better drop the subject.” We did. It shall always remain a tantalizing mystery for me."


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

In October 2011, the Helsinki Philharmonic, under John Storgaards, played, for the first time, three sketches from the legendary "lost" Eighth Symphony of the great Finnish conductor Jean Sibelius.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

^I have not heard those sketches, will have to check it out.

In all honesty I’m not disappointed at the loss of the 8th (if there even was such a project in the first place). I simply cannot imagine the man having to say more about the symphonic form that he so radically overhauled. No. 7 is a crystallization, an apotheosis. I don’t doubt that he could have produced something even more incredible and innovative, but part of me thinks that it would be somewhat of a disappointment. I think he was wise to take early retirement - I have a suspicion he knew he had said all he wanted to say, and didn’t want to mar his legacy with unnecessary late-life fillers.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> ^I have not heard those sketches, will have to check it out.
> 
> In all honesty I'm not disappointed at the loss of the 8th (if there even was such a project in the first place). I simply cannot imagine the man having to say more about the symphonic form that *he so radically overhauled. No. 7 is a crystallization, an apotheosis.* I don't doubt that he could have produced something even more incredible and innovative, but part of me thinks that it would be somewhat of a disappointment. I think he was wise to take early retirement - I have a suspicion he knew he had said all he wanted to say, and didn't want to mar his legacy with unnecessary late-life fillers.


I agree - he originally did not consider the 7th as wholly a symphony, calling it 'Fantasia Sinfonica No. 1'. I think it's the way he manages the transitions, so seamlessly and organically, that makes it, as you say, so innovative.

I never realised how recapitulatory the final climax actually is because of how he so utterly re-orchestrates the exposition where it is quiet and calming.


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