# My latest CD of Beethoven's Ninth



## SixFootScowl

I just ordered a used CD of the John Eliot Gardiner Beethoven's Ninth with the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.

I already have in my collection the following:

CD of Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1977)

CD of Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra (1959) 

CD of Kurt Masur conducting the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (1974)

Vinyl (but alas, no turntable) of Ferenc Fricsay conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1958), which was my very first copy of the Ninth.

Of the three CDs I like the Karajan rendition best, but am hoping the Gardiner rendition will take that place. I bought the Gardiner CD because it is supposed to be on period instruments, a smaller orchestra, and perhaps more faithfully rendered as it would have been in Beethoven's day.

I think it would be pretty nice to find the smallest orchestra, perhaps a chamber orchestra that does the Ninth. Any suggestions to that end?

Let me add: Any brief comments on the performances listed above are welcome.


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## Amfibius

Why don't you have a listen to the Gardiner and see what you think before trying other period performances  In general I am not really a fan of period performances for Beethoven's 9th - I find most of them too feeble. The one I like best is the Herreweghe on Pentatone - it has a wonderful intensity, very dynamic, and suitably uplifting. I can actually listen to this disc and enjoy it, leaving the Furtwanglers, Karajans, Klemperer, Walter, Kleiber, Toscanini, Haitink, and others on the shelf  

The other common recommendation is the Harnoncourt - actually played with modern instruments, but a much smaller "period sized" ensemble and with much faster "period" tempi. I also have this disc - after one listen I found it a bit too eccentric and it has stayed on my shelf ever since. People do go on about it though (it was Grammophone recording of the year some time back) so perhaps I should give it another shot.


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## Vaneyes

TallPaul, if you want to improve upon HvK, there's only one possibility, and that's the '72 Solti rec with Chicago.

LvB 9 = Bombastic


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## StlukesguildOhio

Yes... the Solti is great... but I'd also look into the Karajan from 1962 with Walter Berry and Gundula Janowitz. This is the greatest HvK recording of the 9th. Furtwangler is another "must have". Others of merit include Bohm, Ferenc Fricsay, Toscanini, André Cluytens, Josef Krips. Personally, I quite like Gardiner's recordings of the whole of Beethoven. I find his 3rd especially convincing. His 9th is urgent, muscular... certainly not lacking in fire. Seriously, Beethoven's 9th... his symphonies as a whole are such central works to the classical oeuvre that no single interpretation can be seen as authoritative......................................................... except Kleiber's 5th.


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## HarpsichordConcerto

TallPaul said:


> I just ordered a used CD of the John Eliot Gardiner Beethoven's Ninth with the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.
> 
> I already have in my collection the following:
> 
> CD of Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1977)
> 
> CD of Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra (1959)
> 
> CD of Kurt Masur conducting the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (1974)
> 
> Vinyl (but alas, no turntable) of Ferenc Fricsay conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1958), which was my very first copy of the Ninth.
> 
> Of the three CDs I like the Karajan rendition best, but am hoping the Gardiner rendition will take that place. I bought the Gardiner CD because it is supposed to be on period instruments, a smaller orchestra, and perhaps more faithfully rendered as it would have been in Beethoven's day.
> 
> I think it would be pretty nice to find the smallest orchestra, perhaps a chamber orchestra that does the Ninth. Any suggestions to that end?
> 
> Let me add: Any brief comments on the performances listed above are welcome.


Given the three versions you already have (Karajan, Walter and Masur), I think it would be a nice addition to go for a period instrument / HIP version. You should know that when the 9th was premiered, the size of the orchestra used was already not far to rivalling the size of a modern symphony orchestra (in fact, symphonies #7 and #8 at their premieres used orchestras that were even larger than #9), so it's not really an orchestral size question, but much more about other matters such as orchestral pitch, tempi, metronome markings, versions of the score, and of course, the instruments themselves.

Fine HIP versions, including using period instruments include Gardiner's, Christopher Hogwood's, Roger Norrington's, Jos van Immerseel's, and a relatively new one by La Chambre Philharmonique & Choeur de Chambre les Éléments under Emmanuel Krivine, which I'll be getting to try.

"Feeble" sounds or not, really it's all to do with what one is used to hearing.


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## Olias

Here's one that doesn't get nearly enough attention. Its a live performance from 1983 that is just spectacular. Plus the price is great on the CD.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=7345


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## SixFootScowl

Thanks, looks like there are quite a few good performances to consider. I'll listen to the Gardiner CD a few times before making my next move, unless of course I find a good performance at a great price at my local music store. Ha, the Bruno Walter 9 symphony set was all of $5 at a garage sale. Hard to beat that.

The Kurt Masur performance came on a double CD set that included the Choral Fantasia, Leonore Overtures 1,2, and 3, Fidelio Overture, and Consecration of the House. Nice considering I recently purchased the Fidelio Opera set.


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## kv466

One of the works I've heard most times, I am certain you'll find much better than von Karajan eventually...happy listening!


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## GoneBaroque

Olias said:


> Here's one that doesn't get nearly enough attention. Its a live performance from 1983 that is just spectacular. Plus the price is great on the CD.
> 
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=7345


I have that performance and can highly recommend it.


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## SixFootScowl

What about either of these conducted by Arturo Toscanini?

1937 recording with the BBC Symphony Orchestra 
1952 recording with the NBC Symphony Orchestra


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## kv466

TallPaul said:


> What about either of these conducted by Arturo Toscanini?
> 
> 1937 recording with the BBC Symphony Orchestra
> 1952 recording with the NBC Symphony Orchestra


I've very familiar with the NBC recording...but, what are you looking for, exactly? Guess I'm gonna have to listen to that Karajan '77 again and see what you liked and go from there...I've got a whole fresh set but haven't sat down and heard them yet...last I heard was Andre Previn conducting The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; I bought this when it was hot on the racks back in the mid-nineties. Not very famous or highly received yet, to me, it has always been a solid performance and is still one of my very favorites. The first movement is not the best but the molto vivace is just about perfect and this is, perhaps, my favorite third movement. The fourth, again, is just about perfect and I happen to like the singers very much. All in all a recommend from my, indeed.

Also a very big fan of the Rene Leibowitz recording with the same orchestra back in '61, although some passages a bit too quick for my taste, they play it beautifully and well, I'm pretty much a fan of all things Leibowitz anyway.


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## SixFootScowl

I am not sure what I am looking for, but that I love this particular work so much that having various performances is nice as I listen to it a lot. I may eventually settle on different performances for my favorites among the movements, the third movement seeming to be the most difficult to get quite right from the perspective that (my hypothesis) it is much harder to create (and to some degree perform) good music for a slow piece than for a faster paced piece.

The 1937 Toscanini could be very interesting in that it likely would sound like a very old recording as I doubt that technology can clean up one that old very well. On the other hand, I read that Toscanini conducted the Ninth many times in his career and was working towards a definitive performance and finally at about the age of 85 made the recording (1952), so that one could be fantastic too.


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## Amfibius

Did you guys even read the OP's post? He said that he is looking for a period performance. What is period about Toscanini or Mehta?


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## Manxfeeder

TallPaul said:


> I am not sure what I am looking for, but that I love this particular work so much that having various performances is nice as I listen to it a lot.


I was just thinking, in my collection, at least, there is always room for another good 9th.

Personally, I'd describe the Toscanini 1952 as driven. He doesn't dwell on mysteries. Also, you can easily detect rhythm shifts in the music that others don't highlight. And the ability of the ensemble to cut off the same way is notable. The down side is, the recorded sound isn't great, even in the RCA set released in 2003. At least that's my two cents.


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## Itullian

Hogwood, Goodman for period instruments

for modern Bohm, dg
Solti first analog one Chicago
Karajan 77
Klemperer emi, stereo


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## SixFootScowl

Amfibius said:


> Did you guys even read the OP's post? He said that he is looking for a period performance. What is period about Toscanini or Mehta?


You are right, but... I sort of went beyond that (evolving thread I guess) and it was even I that first mentioned Toscanini. I am pretty much a novice, having listened to much classical in the early 80s, then not again until just a few months ago when I began building a CD collection. One of the first CDs I purchased was the Karajan Ninth. I do want to get the Fricsay on CD if for no other reason than it was my first and I would love to listen to that performance again. I am open to several more performances in my library. After all, when you can pick up a decent used CD for aroun $5-10, it's a bargain. I was paying that much for vinyl back in 1980 and I know a dollar was worth much more than. Hopefully I will get a couple good period performances and others.

I am enjoying the discussion and thanks all for your input.


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## itywltmt

I think the versions mentioned to date cover the top of the Hit Parade.

I don't own a HIP performance, but do own the (fairly recent) Haitink/LSO recording of the Del Mar edition of the score. It is not HIP _per se_, but it does not require the deployment of a Victorian-style, large orchestra.

It may be a good compromise.

Alternatively, I am pretty sure Tilson-Thomas recorded the 9th in the late 70s with the English Chamber Orchestra when he assembled a Beethoven cycle with "smaller proportions". His Pastorale was excellent, dunno about the 9th...


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## kv466

itywltmt said:


> I think the versions mentioned to date cover the top of the Hit Parade.
> 
> I don't own a HIP performance, but do own the (fairly recent) Haitink/LSO recording of the Del Mar edition of the score. It is not HIP _per se_, but it does not require the deployment of a Victorian-style, large orchestra.
> 
> It may be a good compromise.
> 
> Alternatively, I am pretty sure Tilson-Thomas recorded the 9th in the late 70s with the English Chamber Orchestra when he assembled a Beethoven cycle with "smaller proportions". His Pastorale was excellent, dunno about the 9th...


I just started attending Tilson-Thomas concerts again...man,...I still don't get it because he's not a go to like I'd think to recommend his recordings...but live he is and has always been amazing to watch! Not only does he do with the piece what I'd like to do with it but he's lively and,...just plain old good.

I gotta check those out! Thanks for sharing, Itywltmt...yeah, I've tried to come up with a nick for you...just ain't gonna happen.


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## SixFootScowl

Boy, I feel like the alcoholic who can't pass a bar. Went by Dearborn Music yesterday and sort of got bonkers, came out with two used Ninths:

Solti 1984 (I know this is not the analog one)
Maazel 1978 with the Cleveland Orchestra

The Maazel one promises to be very good and commentary on the web said it was especially good for the vocal parts being very clear, with the high point being the bass singer, Talvela, which if I recall, is the same bass as on the analog Solti. Also commentary said the chorus was slightly recessed, which also suits me fine.

But the greatest find was a free download of Otto Klemperer in mono of a 1956 Amsterdam performance:. 

Gre Brouwenstijn, soprano
Annie Hermes, contralto
Ernst Haefliger, tenor
Hans Wilbrink, bass
Toonkunst Choir
Concertgebouw Orchestra
Otto Klemperer, Conductor
Live Performance: Amsterdam, 17 May 1956
+++
Tech Spec:
Source: Dual-track Open Reel Tape (in Mono)
Remastering Resolution: 32-bit 192kHz
Output Format: 16-bit 48kHz Mono WAV

This could be the gem that goes to the top of my now 7 performance Ninth collection. Is is appropriate and permissible to post the link to this download on this site? I would love to share it. The page claims it is okay to download. Also cannot find this one on Amazon, but see a 1957 performance with different singers and orchestra.

Is there such a thing as Ninth addiction?  Some of the commenters on Amazon say they have at least a dozen performances in their collection. I may have to dedicate one MP3 player soley to the Ninth.


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## SixFootScowl

Oh boy, now I have the Blomstedt performance. That makes 8, but it seems to me one should have nine performances of the Ninth. And they next to all those Ninths I have to include one performance of the Choral Fantasy, which I understand was a step in the direction of the Ninth. Frankly, my ear discernt mainly the difference in the vocals on all these Ninths, but with further listening I may pick out more differences. Haven't received the Gardiner performance yet either, still in the mail. Now it seems the Ninth was meant to have bass, tenor, alto, and soprano, but some of these recordings substitute baritone for the bass and have contralto or mesosoprano instead of alto. Does it matter?


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## Guest

I have the Karajan '63, which is very good, as is the Fricsay recording. Wouldn't be without either. The Gardiner and van Immerseel recordings are really great HIP recordings - I think I prefer Gardiner, but the van Immerseel is such a different approach, I would get them both.

But one to look out for is the 9th by Vanska on BIS. It uses modern instruments, but as I recall it incorporates period practices. Kind of a hybrid of the two approaches, but it works very well. The entire Beethoven symphony cycle by Vanska on BIS is currently my favorite in terms of both performance and audio quality.

And don't forget to at least try the Furtwangler recording on EMI. Mono sound, but if you can get past that, it is a powerful recording.


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## SixFootScowl

I will have to keep your recommendations in mind too. The Fricsay would be great as it was my first recording but I have in only on vinyl. I have no problem with mono, actually prefer it as I listen often with a single earbud.

Gunter Wand (NDR Symphony Orchestra, Hamburg) and Bela Drahos (chamber orchestra Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia, Budapest) both look very interesting and use smaller orchestras.

Just heard clips today of a 1928 performance that is likely wonderful, but alas, sounds like 1928--can't be helped.


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## NightHawk

Some years ago, maybe 2005 or so, Avery Fischer Hall at Lincoln Center opened their season with JEGardiner and his Orchestre revolutionaries et romantique in a performance of Beethoven's Ninth - I was not expecting to like it very much but it knocked me out! It was wonderful and the audience, I think, was as stunned as I was. The contrabassoon was a straight tube instrument projecting from the WW section like a bazooka!



TallPaul said:


> I just ordered a used CD of the John Eliot Gardiner Beethoven's Ninth with the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.
> 
> I already have in my collection the following:
> 
> CD of Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1977)
> 
> CD of Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra (1959)
> 
> CD of Kurt Masur conducting the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (1974)
> 
> Vinyl (but alas, no turntable) of Ferenc Fricsay conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1958), which was my very first copy of the Ninth.
> 
> Of the three CDs I like the Karajan rendition best, but am hoping the Gardiner rendition will take that place. I bought the Gardiner CD because it is supposed to be on period instruments, a smaller orchestra, and perhaps more faithfully rendered as it would have been in Beethoven's day.
> 
> I think it would be pretty nice to find the smallest orchestra, perhaps a chamber orchestra that does the Ninth. Any suggestions to that end?
> 
> Let me add: Any brief comments on the performances listed above are welcome.


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## SixFootScowl

I think it would be very interesting to go smaller, say the fewest instruments possible, that is, one of each type of instrument (well maybe two in cases where a single instrument will be too weak in volume), and a small choir of perhaps 6 to 8 voices behind the 4 vocalists. I think this could produce a stunning clairity of all components, especially the choir. 

So, is it possible that anyone has done it this way?

BTW, I like the Blomstead performance (1980) so much I bought another Blomstead, not sure the year, but the singers are different, and it is DDD versus the 1980 being ADD. Also the DDD version is said to have some applause at the end as well as audible coughing in places. Should be interesting.


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## SixFootScowl

So now I have 11 Ninths and I like them all:

Weingartner 1935 
Klemperer 1956 
Walter 1959
Masur 1974
Kiarajan 1977
Maazel 1978
Blomstedt 1980 ADD
Blomstedt unknown year DDD
Solti 1984
Drahos 1996
Gardiner 1992

I'll have to do a lot of listening to pick up the finer differences, but definitely the singers make a huge difference and I listen to this symphony a lot, so having different performances is a good thing. 

But the puzzle I would like to have solved is what is the date of the second Blomstedt performance. Here is what I have from the CDs:

Both are with the Dresden Staatskapelle orchestra

the 1980 edition is ADD with the following singers:
Helena Doese
Margo Schival 
Peter Schreier
Theo Adam

The unknown year is DDD with the following singers:
Edith Weins
Ute Walther
Reiner Goldberg
Karl-Heinz Stryczek

As Herbert Blomstedt was with the Dresden Staatskapelle from 1975 to 1985 presumably the recording is in this timeframe unless he did a guest appearance later with that orchestra. As the second is digitally recorded versus the other being analog, it seems reasonable to assume the digital was done later than the analog, so about 1981-1985. Also seems likely to be closer to the 1985 end than the 1981 end just to put some distance between recording the same symphony twice.


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## SixFootScowl

Mystery solved! There are several editions of the digital Blomstedt Beethoven's 9th. On Allmusic.com they listed all three, and on only one of them it included the recording date, which is 1985. As for the 1980 performance, it is listed as 1979-1980 in the set of all Beethoven symphonies by Blomstedt.


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## Andres

I listened to Bohm's today today, but for some reason it didn't quite hit me like I wanted it to. The second movement just felt too slow and deliberate. I know it's highly acclaimed, but I may need another.

Itullian, is that... Ian Anderson?


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## SixFootScowl

I really like the 1980 Blomstedt. The tenor, Peter Schreier, sings very beautiful.


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## SixFootScowl

Well, I have to add one more to the list:

Eugen Duvier, a very nice Ninth with the Philharmonia Slavonica and Solists of the Opera of Bratisiava. 

So how many Ninths should one own? 

I have 12 (well 13 if I count the Liszt piano transcription) and it seems like I could easily get to 20.

I also have Evegny Vovkushansky's Ninth with the St. Petersburg Festival Orchestra in my sights.


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## NightHawk

A number of years ago, 2005 maybe, the Gardiner group opened the Lincoln Center (Avery Fisher Hall) season with a performance of the 9th. I was astonished at the power, vibrancy, intonation and at being totally convinced by this HIP performance in such a stupendous work. I think you will admire it greatly. best.



TallPaul said:


> I just ordered a used CD of the John Eliot Gardiner Beethoven's Ninth with the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique.
> 
> I already have in my collection the following:
> 
> CD of Herbert von Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1977)
> 
> CD of Bruno Walter conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra (1959)
> 
> CD of Kurt Masur conducting the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (1974)
> 
> Vinyl (but alas, no turntable) of Ferenc Fricsay conducting the Berlin Philharmonic (1958), which was my very first copy of the Ninth.
> 
> Of the three CDs I like the Karajan rendition best, but am hoping the Gardiner rendition will take that place. I bought the Gardiner CD because it is supposed to be on period instruments, a smaller orchestra, and perhaps more faithfully rendered as it would have been in Beethoven's day.
> 
> I think it would be pretty nice to find the smallest orchestra, perhaps a chamber orchestra that does the Ninth. Any suggestions to that end?
> 
> Let me add: Any brief comments on the performances listed above are welcome.


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## Guest

TallPaul said:


> Well, I have to add one more to the list:
> 
> Eugen Duvier, a very nice Ninth with the Philharmonia Slavonica and Solists of the Opera of Bratisiava.
> 
> So how many Ninths should one own?
> 
> I have 12 (well 13 if I count the Liszt piano transcription) and it seems like I could easily get to 20.
> 
> I also have Evegny Vovkushansky's Ninth with the St. Petersburg Festival Orchestra in my sights.


As many as there are unique, worthwhile interpretations. I don't see the point in owning recordings that don't add much, in terms of sound or performance, to what you already have. What is your goal - quantity, or quality?


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## brianwalker

Furtwangler 1954 is my "definitive" version. Most people would recommend his 1942 version where Hitler was in the audience, but the sound of that recording is beyond atrocious.

Remastered version here.

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphony-No-22-1954/dp/B001A72XOI/ref=pd_sim_m_3


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## superhorn

Nothing against this great work, but how many recordings of it do you need ? 
There are so many other wonderful symphonies you could also get,although I don't know if you have them. For example , symphonies by other **. : Balakirev,
Bruch,Bax, Brian,Bliss, Bloch, Berwald . I love the Beethoven symphonies as much as any one, but I don't want to hear them every day ! I don't want to get jaded with his music .
Or nay other great composer .


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## Pestouille

Why not try Celibidache, maybe not the best but so much different.... You will hear a lot of people shouting, but it is another experience (the slowest tempi ever...), maybe less working for the last movement. Try the first 3 movements completely relaxed and do nothing else... the colours of the orchestra are great, Celibidache enlighten certain parts beautifully... Don't listen to the shouting fanatic, listen to the music...


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## tgtr0660

I have around 7 versions, I've yet to hear four of them waiting on my cd collection to be heard in the following two weeks (Furtwangler's 1954, Bernstein's last one, Chailly's new one, Fricsay's legendary one on DG), and of the rest I have, I like Solti's with the CSO the best, followed by Karajan 60s cycle, Furtwangler on EMI, Toscanini on RCA, and Jochum on Philips. 

I guess I have 9 then


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