# If you've just met Brahms...



## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

My interest in romantic symphonies has soared over the past few weeks. My father, a real diehard, has boxed sets of Beethoven, Mahler, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Bruckner, Shostakovich, Rachmaninov, Vaughan Williams and what not. Most are recordings by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra under Haitink or Chailly. While studying for my exams or writing my papers I always put on one of his CD's, as I'm one of those people who simply cannot concentrate if there is no music at all in the background.

I'm sort of trying to get into these composers' music more deeply so I have a two-part question: are there any good general books that you know ofthat deal with the symphonies of these composers, or romantic symphonies in general? I've had some musical education so books containing analysis of the music would ahve my preference. 
Second, are there, besides these and maybe Sibelius, other symphonists whose work I should look into? Where do I start.

I'm sorry, this must be one of many 'request'-type threads, but my more constructive posts will come later

Regards,

Silmarillion.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

For the books: Here's a thread that was started a week ago
http://www.talkclassical.com/2150-music-books-quick-reference.html


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## ChamberNut (Jan 30, 2007)

silmarillion said:


> Second, are there, besides these and maybe Sibelius, other symphonists whose work I should look into? Where do I start..


I would also recommend early Romantic symphonists such as Schubert (for sure the 8th and 9th symphonies), Schumann and Mendelssohn. And definitely Dvorak for mid/late Romantic symphonies.

I haven't heard Prokofiev's symphonies, but I believe some of them are highly regarded 20th Century symphonies.


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

ChamberNut said:


> I would also recommend early Romantic symphonists such as Schubert (for sure the 8th and 9th symphonies), Schumann and Mendelssohn. And definitely Dvorak for mid/late Romantic symphonies.
> 
> I haven't heard Prokofiev's symphonies, but I believe some of them are highly regarded 20th Century symphonies.


Thanks ChamberNut!

I've tried the Unfinished 8th, though it didn't really do much for me. Maybe I'll try again. I do not know Schubert's ninth. Prokofiev....I've only heard his fifth and first symphonies and though both are interesting, especially the Classical, they did not leave a lasting impression. I wish Bizet had written more for orchestra than Symphony 1 and Roma, I really like his style a lot.

On a sidenote: yesterday I listened to Brahms no. 1 for the first time in a few years, had completely forgotten about the nickname, and was startled by the resemblance to Beethoven. I was working on a paper, and some string passages were so 'Beethovian' that for a second I was confused about what music I'd put on. Just a second, but still.


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

silmarillion said:


> On a sidenote: yesterday I listened to Brahms no. 1 for the first time in a few years, had completely forgotten about the nickname, and was startled by the resemblance to Beethoven. I was working on a paper, and some string passages were so 'Beethovian' that for a second I was confused about what music I'd put on. Just a second, but still.


Yep, he certainly utilised tunes from the final movement of Beethoven's 9th. It's so obvious that some people facetiously refer to it as Beethoven's 10th.

And I've recently started really admiring Schubert's 8th. If I had the opportunity to change a few things in history, reminding Schubert about a certain incomplete symphony would be one of them. But still, ending abruptly, it leaves a lot for the listener's imagination, especially if this person is musically trained, which I'm not.


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## ChamberNut (Jan 30, 2007)

opus67 said:


> Yep, he certainly utilised tunes from the final movement of Beethoven's 9th. It's so obvious that some people facetiously refer to it as Beethoven's 10th.
> 
> And I've recently started really admiring Schubert's 8th. *If I had the opportunity to change a few things in history*, reminding Schubert about a certain incomplete symphony would be one of them. But still, ending abruptly, it leaves a lot for the listener's imagination, especially if this person is musically trained, which I'm not.


I would let Mozart, Schubert, Mendelssohn and Chopin to live into their 50's or 60's at least


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

ChamberNut said:


> I would let Mozart,* Schubert*, Mendelssohn and Chopin to live into their 50's or 60's at least


Why? If Schubert weren't "aware" of his impending death, he would have probably never come up with his master works.(Or maybe not. At least, that's what I can say from reading articles on the 'net and message boards. I no music historian, you know.) We could speculate on what he would have produced had he lived into his 50's or 60's, but we now know what he was capable of, and I don't want to lose that.


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

Good calls. Although, you never know what might've happened if Mozart had lived another 35 years. His works might've so crammed the repertoire that neither Beethoven nor Schubert, or Mendelssohn for that matter, could get a penny for their troubles. And if Beethoven didn't achieve fame, who would Brahms have had to look up to..


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

Maybe I can become a little more specific: I wonder if there are other symphonies out there that are comparable tot Bizet's in C Major. I really enjoy that music, although, with winter coming up, it doesn't seem very apt anymore. Still, maybe knows some other melodious, 'light' romantic symphonies that are akin to this one?


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## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

As ChamberNut suggested, try some Mendelssohn...his 4th in particular.


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

which Bruckner Cycle is in there? Chailly or Haitink, regardless of which one you have, both cycles are good. You should start with Bruckner's 7th symphony, and depending upon your maturity, you might or might not like Bruckner's works.


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

It's Haitink's Cycle, and I'm enjoying the 7th so far (almost near the end of the Adagio now). It's good, but not very memorable. The powerful writing for strings and brass is very interesting, lyrical almost. I do enjoy it, although it's not easy going at some points. Bruckner takes no prisoners.


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

There are plenty of good books on this stuff, if you like reading scholarly texts. You mentioned Brahms 1st - I did an essay on this a while back, and its an interesting symphony in many ways (but I won't bore you with the details).

Anyway here are some of the better books.

Brodbeck, D. (1997). Brahms: Symphony no. 1. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Frisch, W. (1996). Brahms: The four symphonies. New York: Schirmer Books.

Knapp, R. (1997). Brahms and the challenge of the symphony. New York: Pendragon Press.


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

Scholarly texts are fine with me, but since I'm reading this stuff as a hobby in my spare time, I do prefer texts that aren't too dry. I'll look up your suggestions.

Thanks,

Silmarillion


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

If you like Bizet's Ｃ major Student symphony, then you might like his "Roma" symphony as well. Here:

Bizet's Symphony "Roma"　ｉｎ　Ｃ　ｍａｊｏｒ

I. Andante Tranquillo
II. Allegro Vivace
III. Andante Molto
IV. Allegro Vivacissimo

note: you need internet connection + realplayer or Winamp to access.


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

I do know it. It's ok, but I find it less directly and continously interesting than the 1st Symphony. At any rate, Sibelius' 1st, 2nd and 5th have been major recent discoveries for me recently. Very powerful music. Perhaps I should try Nielsen too, I often see his music recommended alongside Sibelius. 

I have a great recording of all of Bizet's orchestral music, and it shows a different, lighter but also very fresh side of Bizet's music. I find the Symphony in C very interesting because it somehow sounds quite unique in style and air. It's a real 'season' favorite in that I can listen to it all summer, but by the time the leaves start to fall I suddenly start looking for more dramatic music (violin concertos!)


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## Gustav (Aug 29, 2005)

silmarillion said:


> I do know it. It's ok, but I find it less directly and continously interesting than the 1st Symphony. At any rate, Sibelius' 1st, 2nd and 5th have been major recent discoveries for me recently. Very powerful music. Perhaps I should try Nielsen too, I often see his music recommended alongside Sibelius.
> 
> I have a great recording of all of Bizet's orchestral music, and it shows a different, lighter but also very fresh side of Bizet's music. I find the Symphony in C very interesting because it somehow sounds quite unique in style and air. It's a real 'season' favorite in that I can listen to it all summer, but by the time the leaves start to fall I suddenly start looking for more dramatic music (violin concertos!)


what did you think of the "Roma" symphony then?


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## silmarillion (Oct 24, 2007)

Well, it's been a while since I've listened to it, but I think the main problems were that maybe the thematic material lacked a certain charisma. Although the ambiance created in the movements is generally interesting and orchestrated with refinement, it simply won't really stick. That's a pretty terrible argument in a way: great music does not have to have memorable themes, but this, and in a way a lack of drama that I like so much about in his opera, or a real freshness that I enjoy about his Symphony in C make me a little less enthousiastic about this work as compared to that work and for example Carmen. 

That said, maybe it's time I give it a retry. It's been a while since I heard it and my tastes have changed significantly since I last heard it. I've al least become much more patient than I used to be.


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## Oneiros (Aug 28, 2006)

silmarillion said:


> Scholarly texts are fine with me, but since I'm reading this stuff as a hobby in my spare time, I do prefer texts that aren't too dry. I'll look up your suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Silmarillion


Np. Most of them aren't too heavy - from an undergrad's point of view  - and there's some really interesting stuff in there: such as the Clara cypher, and the parallels (in music and narrative meaning) with some of Schumann's works (not to mention the love triangle). The shortest, and the best IMO, was the Cambridge book by Brodbeck. The other two had some good chapters, but some sections just went on for way too long...


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