# Equality in music (not only gender)



## Guest (Feb 12, 2018)

To avoid too much thread drift in the 'Female Composers' discussion - aiming to celebrate and promote them, not discuss gender (in)equality), I've started this instead.

I reuse this quote from http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/arti...t-island-discsto kick off the discussion. Chi Chi Nwanoku on Desert Island Discs yesterday - black, and a woman. Here's a taste of what "we learned".



> Blind auditions, where musicians perform behind a screen, are a contentious issue in the world of classical music. While Chi-chi acknowledges this, she thinks there are some positives: "It comes as no surprise to me that since that's been introduced, there are 25 percent more women in orchestras in America. It's not just for the colour of your skin, it's your gender as well."


To those who say that "No one is preventing women in becoming composers and composing music." I would ask for some evidence to support their assertion.

By the way, I have no female composers in my "classical" collection, so I could hardly contribute properly to the other thread. But I do have female singer/songwriter/performers in my pop/rock collection where "equality" appears to be less of an issue.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

One of the positive trends in recent decades has been the slow but steadily increasing in tempo inclusion of more and more former outlier groups into the mainstream of culture and society. Gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation have all lessened as barriers to such inclusion, and we are richer for the change. The explosion of female rock and pop artists in the 1980s and 1990s, after a slower increase in the preceding decades, was one such manifestation. The _Rolling Stone Book of Women in Rock_, 1997, helped document the phenomenon. The #MeToo movement of right now is an even more powerful phenomenon, and can result in wonderful improvements in many aspects of human life unprecedented in history. This is one area where the future looks bright, if only we can hold onto the gains.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> To avoid too much thread drift in the 'Female Composers' discussion - aiming to celebrate and promote them, not discuss gender (in)equality), I've started this instead.
> 
> I reuse this quote from http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/arti...t-island-discsTo those who say that "No one is preventing women in becoming composers and composing music." I would ask for some evidence to support their assertion.


While I am sure that there is still some resistance to women becoming composers, the biggest issue is the problem in getting their works performed.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

There's no question about it . Women now play a greater role in classical music than ever before ,w whether as composers, conductors ,members orchestras or arts administrators etc . This is certainly a good thing .
If you look at photos of or televised concerts of say, the New York Philharmonic under Bernstein , the orchestra was almost 100 % male , with maybe one or two women at most . Today, there are numerous women in it in virtually all sections . There are even women in the brass section now, which is unprecedented for the orchestra . 
The same is true with orchestras everywhere , even the conservative Vienna Philharmonic . 
Until recent years , there were very few women conductors . But now we have Marin Alsop as music director of the Baltimore symphony , the Sao Paulo symphony in Brazil, and she's just been appointed to head the radio orchestra in ultra-conservative Vienna . 
Joann Falletta , whom I have played under, has been dong terrific work with the Buffalo Philharmonic , recording interested off beat repertoire for Naxos , for example, and both Alsop and Falletta have appeared with leading orchestras all over America, Europe and elsewhere .
Susanna Malkki of Finland is now music director of the Helsinki Philharmonic and made an acclaimed Met debut conducting Kaaia Saariaho's opera "L'Amour De Lointain " not long ago, only the second opera by a female composer performed there . 
The young Lithuanian conductor Mirga Grzynite-Tyla is now music director of the City of Birmingham orchestra in England, succeeding Andris Nelsons .
And more and more women conductors are making a name for t themselves .
Women composers such as Kaaia Saariaho, Jennifer Higdon and others are now among the most frequently performed contemporary composers, period .


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

superhorn said:


> There's no question about it . Women now play a greater role in classical music than ever before ,w whether as composers, conductors ,members orchestras or arts administrators etc .
> ...
> And more and more women conductors are making a name for t themselves .
> Women composers such as Kaaia Saariaho, Jennifer Higdon and others are now among the most frequently performed contemporary composers, period .


And from this are we to infer that therefore there are no issues left to resolve? That there is total equality of opportunity?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Becca, I didn't say there are no issues to resolve, but things are vastly different than in the past for women in classical music . And better .


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

superhorn said:


> Becca, I didn't say there are no issues to resolve, but things are vastly different than in the past for women in classical music . And better .


That is true, they are a lot better, but women still have a much higher hill to climb to achieve the same results as men. The irony is that when a few manage it, they are considered proof of equality.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2018)

Regarding females in classical music, it is worth noting the issues seem somewhat different between performing careers and composing careers, according to this interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/feb/28/why-male-domination-of-classical-music-might-end


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I would hazard a guess that equality as musicians > equality as conductors > equality as composer > equality getting works performed. There is, of course, one area where women have total dominance ... as sopranos :lol:


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

there are more women in society than men. Why is it that the US has never had a female president? 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/10/white-women-donald-trump-victory
this question might seem unrelated, but is imho actually at the root of the problem of why women have a problem getting into leading roles.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

and I am against any kind of privileges (implemented by laws) that would be based solely on belonging to a certain sex/race/minority. Why should someone have a much better chance of being accepted to a university just because he is black? That should be based solely on talent/achievement. That is the real equality of opportunity. Anything else is perversion and positive discrimination.

this attitude is actually damaging to the minorities themselves, because then everyone will suppose that their success is not based on real achievement/talent, but was gained by belonging to a certain privileged group
http://nowmoney.me/blog/is-positive-discrimination-really-that-positive

The admission to universities should be decided anonymously, ie those deciding about it would have no information about the sex/race of the applicant.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

Gee, if only societies functioned like a tone row and heard all notes as equal. Instead, we have some notes proclaiming their supremacy so loudly that other notes are drowned out. Perhaps, as Ives once said in another context, we all need to "stretch our ears."


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Becca said:


> And from this are we to infer that therefore there are no issues left to resolve? That there is total equality of opportunity?


you do realize that "Equality" is a myth, right?

Talent is not distributed equally and opportunity is not equally distributed either. It never was and it never will be.

for example...I live in a rural area. There are no opera companies in this area. So if I want to see opera, sing opera, or do anything with opera, I have to move someplace else because there are no opportunities locally. That isn't anybody's fault, its just the way it is

I would love to play a guitar concerto, but even being a white man, I still cannot find an orchestra that will play with me...or even one to invite me to play with them. That is not anyone's fault. I'm not good enough to get that kind of work. I can accept that and I am happy with the playing work that I do get....but the thing is that it really doesn't matter what you want

everyone wants to be a great player, there is no distinction in that

but only a handful of people in the world are in a position to get to play a guitar concerto with a professional orchestra

in music, all that really matters is who you know. You have to be good enough to take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself, but the fact is there are more players than there is work, so somebody is going to miss out.

musicians work hard to make sure its the other guy that misses out. That doesn't just mean practice, it also means getting out there and meeting the people who are making it all happen and forging the relationships that can help you in the future. Why should someone who never leaves their basement have the same opportunity as me? I work hard and have spent my life among musicians. What if I have played that same festival for 5 strait years and the folks love me, why should someone else have "equal" opportunity to land that gig when I have helped to build the event into what it is?

music is a tough business. There isn't enough work to support everyone, so "equality" is just not realistic.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> I would love to play a guitar concerto, but even being a white man, I still cannot find an orchestra that will play with me...or even one to invite me to play with them. That is not anyone's fault. I'm not good enough to get that kind of work. I can accept that and I am happy with the playing work that I do get....but the thing is that it really doesn't matter what you want


But what if you _were_ good enough, and they still turned you down? Or if you _wanted to become_ good enough, and they kept putting obstacles in your way?



Nate Miller said:


> You have to be good enough to take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself


And what's wrong with some of us thinking it would be a good idea for opportunities to present themselves to a wider range of people?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> But what if you _were_ good enough, and they still turned you down? Or if you _wanted to become_ good enough, and they kept putting obstacles in your way?


you think I don't experience that? I do. I just do something about it other than sit down and cry waiting for mommy to make it better



Nereffid said:


> And what's wrong with some of us thinking it would be a good idea for opportunities to present themselves to a wider range of people?


who said that? What I'm saying is that actually doing that will be futile

wanting that is admirable, but to implement that you would have to do what exactly?

that's why I'll rely on myself and while you are trying to figure out how to legislate a utopia, I will be cleaning up playing chamber music on the side

and that is my point. Rather than trying to reset the game so that everybody gets to play, I am going to get out there and get mine. you should all be doing the same.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> and that is my point. Rather than trying to reset the game so that everybody gets to play, I am going to get out there and get mine. you should all be doing the same.


A clear expression of Social Darwinism.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Nate Miller said:


> you do realize that "Equality" is a myth, right?
> 
> Talent is not distributed equally and opportunity is not equally distributed either. It never was and it never will be.


I never said anything about providing equal opportunity for all no matter the talent, what I said, if you read the thread up to then, was equality of opportunity, i.e. given two people with the talent, then they should both have the chance to develop and exercise that talent without groups of people placing arbitrary limits based on unrelated factors. And if you don't believe that is happening, you should talk to women or minorities in the music world. As I noted elsewhere, all too often they have a much higher bar to clear to get to the same place as men.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Becca said:


> I never said anything about providing equal opportunity for all no matter the talent, what I said, if you read the thread up to then, was equality of opportunity, i.e. given two people with the talent, then they should both have the chance to develop and exercise that talent without groups of people placing arbitrary limits based on unrelated factors. And if you don't believe that is happening, you should talk to women or minorities in the music world. As I noted elsewhere, all too often they have a much higher bar to clear to get to the same place as men.


I think that some people literally don't know what we mean when we talk about "equality".

There's a common belief that "equality" means a deliberate levelling that either unfairly pulls down the above-average or unfairly boosts the below-average.

There are systemic barriers to women and minorities in place. Some are obvious, some less so. I can get why some people feel the need to pretend they don't exist, but I just can't empathise with that level of denial.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Providing for "equality of opportunity" doesn't necessarily imply anything at all about the expected result in terms of outcome. This will depend on the relative number of male/female applicants and their qualifications for the job. For example, if a single job is advertised in which there is genuine equality of opportunity between the sexes then it's anyone's guess whether a male or female is selected. If it so happens that no females apply and some males do then a male will be selected provided of course at least one of the males meets the minimum conditions required of the successful candidate. Even if most of the applicants are female but none of them is as well qualified as a sole male applicant then the male applicant would be expected to secure the job.

As has rightly been pointed out by some others, equality of opportunity is the key issue to ensure fairness, not equality of outcome, as the latter takes no account of possibly differing qualifications between all the applicants. If equality of outcome were to be advocated as the appropriate policy, it could produce some unfair results in terms of not offering jobs to the best-qualified people. I accept that in some situations the latter policy may have been used, if not openly at least covertly.

Where things do begin to become rather more complicated conceptually is in deciding what are the truly underlying factors that determine a person's (whether male or female) likelihood of meeting the eligibility criteria for particular jobs as they come along. At a simple level, it may be one of either having or not having the right number of relevant exam grades, or adequate previous experience, or other quite easily measurable performance characteristics. However, these may indicate only the tip of the iceberg and that the fundamental factors causing disparities among all these measures may be down to one's family connections, such that people coming from wealthy family backgrounds may be more likely to have achieved the requirements than those coming from much poorer backgrounds. In such circumstances, the question may be asked if can it be said that a system of recruitment that is notionally based on equality of opportunity is truly living up to that promise.

The above was one of the issues that was raised in the other thread. I don't pretend to know the answer to this one, or even to have a strong view on a possible solution right now. All that I said in the other thread was that some people might consider that a draconian change in the way societies operate may be the only, or best, solution in order to eradicate any unfairness due to big differences in family wealth. I wasn't advocating any such thing, as one member seems to have wrongly inferred judging by their remark, which I decided to leave unanswered in that thread.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

There are definitely still some barriers for equal opportunity of inclusion in music and other pursuits. I don't have all the answers, but I do know that keeping an open mind, treating everyone with respect, advocating the great music from those less often promoted, and encouraging musicians regardless of background/demographics are all important in making progress in this regard. If you are in a position to hire or commission musicians/composers, then there are even more options for you in making changes.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Genoveva said:


> Providing for "equality of opportunity" doesn't necessarily imply anything at all about the expected result in terms of outcome. This will depend on the relative number of male/female applicants and their qualifications for the job. For example, if a single job is advertised in which there is genuine equality of opportunity between the sexes then it's anyone's guess whether a male or female is selected. If it so happens that no females apply and some males do then a male will be selected provided of course at least one of the males meets the minimum conditions required of the successful candidate. Even if most of the applicants are female but none of them is as well qualified as a sole male applicant then the male applicant would be expected to secure the job.


But a more significant issue is whether there has been equality of opportunity for all males and females throughout their lives. It's all well and good ignoring gender when choosing between equally qualified candidates, but "if it so happens that no females apply" or that "none of them is as well qualified as a sole male applicant" then this might indicate an underlying problem in the field.



Genoveva said:


> Where things do begin to become rather more complicated conceptually is in deciding what are the truly underlying factors that determine a person's (whether male or female) likelihood of meeting the eligibility criteria for particular jobs as they come along. At a simple level, it may be one of either having or not having the right number of relevant exam grades, or adequate previous experience, or other quite easily measurable performance characteristics. However, these may indicate only the tip of the iceberg and that the fundamental factors causing disparities among all these measures may be down to one's family connections, such that people coming from wealthy family backgrounds may be more likely to have achieved the requirements than those coming from much poorer backgrounds. In such circumstances, the question may be asked if can it be said that a system of recruitment that is notionally based on equality of opportunity is truly living up to that promise.


Just out of curiosity and to get a better idea of where you're coming from: you jumped straight from the flaws of "equality of outcome" in a gender situation to the potential flaws of "equality of opportunity" in a much more general situation. Is this because you think the existence of systemic bias against women goes without saying, or because it doesn't exist?


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

Sexism on the conductor front:

http://www.prindlepost.org/2017/02/classical-sexism-female-conductors/

A little gain: my friend's daughter is at uni and training to be a conductor. The world is slowly moving.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Becca said:


> I never said anything about providing equal opportunity for all no matter the talent, what I said, if you read the thread up to then, was equality of opportunity, i.e. given two people with the talent, then they should both have the chance to develop and exercise that talent without groups of people placing arbitrary limits based on unrelated factors. And if you don't believe that is happening, you should talk to women or minorities in the music world. As I noted elsewhere, all too often they have a much higher bar to clear to get to the same place as men.


I live in America, so I always have had the same opportunity that everyone else had to go out and book gigs

thing is there isn't as much work out there for musicians as there used to be

so if there are more people than there are gigs to fill, exactly how does a notion like "equality" figure in?

someone is always going to be on the outside looking in, and while it is really heart warming rhetoric to talk about equality, if you are under age 40 and believe all that, you are going to be in for a shock.

I've been doing gigs in all styles of music since 1979, I honestly never saw "higher bars" for women and minorities. That is poppycock. You would be shocked to see how low the bar can be for an attractive female in any style playing any instrument.

the thing that people don't understand about the music business is that it is entertainment, so looks count. Doesn't mean you have to be good looking, but that helps. But you do have to "look the part". That is not inherently fair or equal, but that is much more of a factor in who gets the gig then you think

another thing to keep in mind is that musicians like to "spread it around". that means that if I have an opportunity to hire my friends, that is exactly what I am going to do. If I get a call to put on a local recital, instead of pocketing all the money myself, I am going to hire my friends to come in and play with me and split the money up. Nothing in that practice has anything to do with fair and equal opportunity. It is all "local's only" and for the benefit of my group of friends. That is reality, and trying to fool with that would require that everyone in the music business stop looking out for their friends, which is what the whole business is predicated on, really.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> I think that some people literally don't know what we mean when we talk about "equality".
> 
> There's a common belief that "equality" means a deliberate levelling that either unfairly pulls down the above-average or unfairly boosts the below-average.


yes, this is exactly what I hear you say when you say "equality"

you mean that you want to take from me because I am actually doing something that you want to do too

so you are right, that is what I hear


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> A clear expression of Social Darwinism.


absolutely

and its a whole lot better than crying about how unfair everything is. Its unfair for me, too. You have no idea how hard it can be to get established in a new town. there's only so much work to go around and it is all going to go to the locals, not you. Believe me, I've been there lots of times.

but I did something about it, and so I have some self confidence that I can get myself work. I wish all of you could have that sort of confidence, too. I honestly don't see what is wrong with that or why I should not feel that way.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Looking out for your friends is admirable, but once you are representing an organization, there has to be a way for the talent to be judged without past associations or other biases affecting the outcome. Otherwise, the established "good old boys" networks are going to just keep persisting.

Also, working hard is going to be in the cards for any musician, but the opportunity to study with music teachers from a young age and onward needs to be available, as well as opportunities to attend the best universities and schools for music. These are the kinds of systemic problems being referred to earlier in the thread.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

bharbeke said:


> Looking out for your friends is admirable, but once you are representing an organization, there has to be a way for the talent to be judged without past associations or other biases affecting the outcome. Otherwise, the established "good old boys" networks are going to just keep persisting.
> 
> Also, working hard is going to be in the cards for any musician, but the opportunity to study with music teachers from a young age and onward needs to be available, as well as opportunities to attend the best universities and schools for music. These are the kinds of systemic problems being referred to earlier in the thread.


I really hate to tell you this, but I'm getting a shot at getting into the chamber music side of a local symphony, but the only reason I am getting the chance is because someone on the board for the symphony saw one of my shows and really liked me and also liked my playing

In my life I can assure you that it is just as much who you know as it is what you know

...and I never had any teachers when I was young and I did alright. You got to get out there and shake those bushes once you are out on your own, that's what matters. What you need are more paying gigs and more opportunities to make a real living playing music if you want more equality for everybody. That's obvious.

so why not book a hall, get your insurance strait, and hire the most diverse crowd of players you can get? that's how it is done, so just go do it


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> yes, this is exactly what I hear you say when you say "equality"
> 
> you mean that you want to take from me because I am actually doing something that you want to do too
> 
> so you are right, that is what I hear


No, I don't want to take from you.

I want to give other people the same opportunities as you if they're as qualified as you. I want to remove any extra barriers that they have to face but you don't, not barriers caused by a lack of ability, but barriers caused by things that shouldn't matter, such as their gender or their ethnicity.

If that means that you have to compete with more just-as-qualified people, well, that's the free market for you...


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> absolutely
> 
> and its a whole lot better than crying about how unfair everything is. Its unfair for me, too. You have no idea how hard it can be to get established in a new town. there's only so much work to go around and it is all going to go to the locals, not you. Believe me, I've been there lots of times.
> 
> but I did something about it, and so I have some self confidence that I can get myself work. I wish all of you could have that sort of confidence, too. I honestly don't see what is wrong with that or why I should not feel that way.


Nate,

Of course there is nothing wrong in getting work and being self confident.

---------------

Each of us naturally only have our own personal experience, we cannot have the experience of others. This means, in regard to any issue, that our own experience may not be typical of the experience of others. So for instance my experience of the living, working world of music is close to zero, whereas yours is quite considerable. Similarly, in regard to the topic of this thread, I have never perceived negative discrimination against me, thankfully. But, from reading around the topic, it appears generally acknowledged that there has existed, and still exists (hopefully to a lesser extent) unfair discrimination in the classical music working world. It can, and is being addressed, by individuals and organisations, to lessen this practice.


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## bz3 (Oct 15, 2015)

I do not believe in the false god of 'equality' but I'm happy for anyone who has achieved their dream. There is no cosmic law that says women are perfectly equally as good as men at all activities and vice versa.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

dogen said:


> ---------------
> 
> ...., it appears generally acknowledged that there has existed, and still exists (hopefully to a lesser extent) unfair discrimination in the classical music working world. It can, and is being addressed, by individuals and organisations, to lessen this practice.


of course there is discrimination. Its people handing out good work. What could possibly go wrong there? :lol:

I can see where jobs like conducting, ballet choreographers, things where there is one position in a large company, but then I have to ask...if a company like the New York Ballet has to hire a choreographer, they would want the best with the most experience. that can be a Catch-22 if no women have been hired to do that job at any other major ballet companies.

but for working musicians, I never really saw any real racial or gender discrimination.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> No, I don't want to take from you.
> 
> I want to give other people the same opportunities as you if they're as qualified as you. I want to remove any extra barriers that they have to face but you don't, not barriers caused by a lack of ability, but barriers caused by things that shouldn't matter, such as their gender or their ethnicity.
> 
> If that means that you have to compete with more just-as-qualified people, well, that's the free market for you...


bring them on, I am all for competing. That's how you get the best.

but honestly, I am at a loss as to what barriers working musicians face because of gender and race. My experience is that is just not true when you are talking about playing instruments


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> honestly, I am at a loss as to what barriers working musicians face because of gender and race. My experience is that is just not true when you are talking about playing instruments


Your experience as a white man?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

bz3 said:


> I do not believe in the false god of 'equality' but I'm happy for anyone who has achieved their dream. There is no cosmic law that says women are perfectly equally as good as men at all activities and vice versa.


Do we have any evidence that women _aren't_ as good as men at musical performance or composition?


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

bz3 said:


> I do not believe in the false god of 'equality' but I'm happy for anyone who has achieved their dream. There is no cosmic law that says women are perfectly equally as good as men at all activities and vice versa.


I think the thread by implication, if not title, means equality as in equality of opportunity; and specifically about obstacles being put in the way to impede fair competition (for performers) and the likelihood of being published and programmed (for composers).


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> Do we have any evidence that women _aren't_ as good as men at musical performance or composition?


Britney Spears. QED.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> But a more significant issue is whether there has been equality of opportunity for all males and females throughout their lives. It's all well and good ignoring gender when choosing between equally qualified candidates, but "if it so happens that no females apply" or that "none of them is as well qualified as a sole male applicant" then this might indicate an underlying problem in the field.


Provided the eligibility criteria for the jobs on offer are objectively based, and the selection procedure is fair, then I don't see any problem at all if it so happens that no females (or possibly a limited number only in relation to the number of men) happen to apply. If this happens repeatedly throughout their lives then those who don't meet the criteria ought to be thinking about obtaining the necessary qualifications to do the job, rather than expecting the criteria to be adjusted downwards to cater for their shortcomings, as seems to be implied by your comment.



> Just out of curiosity and to get a better idea of where you're coming from: you jumped straight from the flaws of "equality of outcome" in a gender situation to the potential flaws of "equality of opportunity" in a much more general situation. Is this because you think the existence of systemic bias against women goes without saying, or because it doesn't exist?


The first part of your question isn't clear to me. I may have misunderstood but are you arguing for "equality of outcome" rather than "equality of opportunity" as the appropriate test of whether or not fairness exists in job selection? If so, I find that so obviously defective that I'm not likely to respond further on that issue.

To answer your second part, what I meant was that it may be difficult to pinpoint the fundamental cause of any inability to satisfy the relevant criteria for particular jobs. It may simply be a lack of motivation to acquire the necessary skills, or it may be the result of more deep-rooted wealth related issues. It's basically the same point that was raised by Macleod in the other thread, and I'm simply flagging it up again as a point for possible further discussion if anyone feels so inclined. In the absence of any further take up, I doubt that I will want to say any more on that topic.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> Your experience as a white man?


yes, smart guy. My experience being the only white man on the bandstand, being the only white man listed on the program, and being the only white man living on my block.

sure, I play classical music, but I grew up playing jazz and blues. So what I am saying is that I have spent a lot of time with black musicians, all my life. even to this day. I can tell you about how things were for black players 50 years ago that would break your heart, but that isn't how things are today. I played with guys that couldn't go to the club we were playing at because of their skin color. You ever heard about "the hat rule"? I can tell you all about it

but none of that happens anymore. really, it is a lot different now than it was.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> yes, smart guy. My experience being the only white man on the bandstand, being the only white man listed on the program, and being the only white man living on my block.
> 
> sure, I play classical music, but I grew up playing jazz and blues. So what I am saying is that I have spent a lot of time with black musicians, all my life. even to this day. I can tell you about how things were for black players 50 years ago that would break your heart, but that isn't how things are today. I played with guys that couldn't go to the club we were playing at because of their skin color. You ever heard about "the hat rule"? I can tell you all about it
> 
> but none of that happens anymore. really, it is a lot different now than it was.


I thought we were talking about classical music. I withdraw the comment.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Genoveva said:


> Provided the eligibility criteria for the jobs on offer are objectively based, and the selection procedure is fair, then I don't see any problem at all if it so happens that no females (or possibly a limited number only in relation to the number of men) happen to apply. If this happens repeatedly throughout their lives then those who don't meet the criteria ought to be thinking about obtaining the necessary qualifications to do the job, rather than expecting the criteria to be adjusted downwards to cater for their shortcomings, as seems to be implied by your comment.


I'm not suggesting that the criteria should be adjusted downwards. In fact I'm not talking about the job selection process at all! If no women apply, or none of those have the right qualifications, it might be because there are barriers in place that prevent women from getting those qualifications in the first place.

So, do you think there's a systemic bias against women in classical music?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> I thought we were talking about classical music. I withdraw the comment.


no reason to withdraw the comment at all. Its a fair thing to say to a white man. But the thing to remember is that all white people are not the same.

I've always had friends that were different nationalities, different races, different sexes, all that. I actually used to be a pretty modern young man. this is what I mean when I say that the true gift of music is that it enriches your life. the old blues man I used to play with in Texas, Pops Carter, was like a grandfather to me. I learned how to cook a lot of down home southern favorites hanging out and cooking with Pops for all the fellas. Pops referred to himself as "colored". I remember one time when a very militant young man from Philly was over and Pops explained to him why he still used the term "colored". I can't relay that conversation now because I would have to use the n-word, as Pops did, to explain why he felt the way he did. But man, that was a heavy scene

anyway, your comments don't bother me, so they shouldn't bother anybody else

if we can't say what's on our minds, then what's the point? :tiphat:


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## insomniclassicac (Jan 15, 2018)

dogen said:


> Sexism on the conductor front:
> 
> http://www.prindlepost.org/2017/02/classical-sexism-female-conductors/
> 
> A little gain: my friend's daughter is at uni and training to be a conductor. The world is slowly moving.


Another textbook example of antediluvian attitudes still persisting at the top in these "that doesn't happen anymore" times:

Mariss Jansons: "Women conductors are not my cup of tea."

As a woman, I have to say the selective myopia I witness when it comes to acknowledging enduring issues like this one is about the only thing that turns me off to the community.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

If I might digress slightly...there is an oft-quoted metaphor about a "level playing-field". It is usually poorly used. What is often missed, by those who complain about those who want one, is that once the playing field is level, the competition can commence - and there will be winners and losers.

No-one is saying that there should be no competition and no winners and losers. Everyone recognises that not everyone can have the same skill levels - no-one expects equality to mean that all must be the same - whether dumbed down or dumbed up (?).

But it seems reasonable to ask that the playing field is level, the referees are not biased etc.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

insomniclassicac said:


> the community.


To which do you refer?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> If I might digress slightly...there is an oft-quoted metaphor about a "level playing-field". It is usually poorly used. What is often missed, by those who complain about those who want one, is that once the playing field is level, the competition can commence - and there will be winners and losers.
> 
> No-one is saying that there should be no competition and no winners and losers. Everyone recognises that not everyone can have the same skill levels - no-one expects equality to mean that all must be the same - whether dumbed down or dumbed up (?).
> 
> But it seems reasonable to ask that the playing field is level, the referees are not biased etc.


this is how you talk about an issue like this. There are still going to be winners and losers, even on a level field. there is not enough work to go around, so there you go. What if the best people still turn out to be white men? it could happen that way, you know. so then when you look around and say "why are there not as many women" you will have to say because there were not enough that were good enough to make the cut.

and since music is entertainment and nobody is going to take a hit on sales just to advance a social agenda, that world would probably look a lot like the one we have now.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> There are still going to be winners and losers, even on a level field. there is not enough work to go around, so there you go.


True.



Nate Miller said:


> What if the best people still turn out to be white men? it could happen that way, you know. so then when you look around and say "why are there not as many women" you will have to say because there were not enough that were good enough to make the cut.


That may also be true, but it is presently only speculation; "what if."


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

and it is speculation, but think about that for a second....we have people here operating on the assumption that there must be a wide ranging conspiracy to keep out everybody but white men. Anytime a white man is chosen over anybody else, it is just more evidence of this "conspiracy"

but orchestras and ballet companies have to survive in the marketplace

why would they hire less qualified people just because they were white men? ....and that is what we are implying here, isn't it? 

it would seem they would hire the best people they could afford. Favoring white men just to keep "everybody else" down is bad business, isn't it? Why would they do that?


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> we have people here operating on the assumption that there must be a wide ranging conspiracy to keep out everybody but white men. Anytime a white man is chosen over anybody else, it is just more evidence of this "conspiracy"


I think "people here" are not operating on an assumption. I am not, I am operating on the lived reality that I have read about. For example, the link in this thread about conductors and the two links I posted in the other thread (Female Composers). I've made no assumption. I don't think it's a "conspiracy" either. It's "just" sexism.



Nate Miller said:


> why would they hire less qualified people just because they were white men? ....and that is what we are implying here, isn't it?


No, it isn't.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Nobody is saying that the people chosen for orchestras and other musician jobs are less qualified than others. The worry is that those who are equally skilled but are not in a privileged group are being passed over or that chances to gain the skills needed for those jobs are not available to all with the desire and drive.

Businesses have to survive, and in my view, they will survive equally well or better if they are reaching out to and promoting talent from all walks of life.


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## insomniclassicac (Jan 15, 2018)

dogen said:


> To which do you refer?


Communit*ies*, really, both online and in-person in which I've mingled.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> I am at a loss as to what barriers working musicians face because of gender and race. *My experience* is that is just not true


And you believe that your experience is sufficient to justify dismissing the experiences reported by others?



Nate Miller said:


> we have people here operating on the assumption that there must be a wide ranging conspiracy to keep out everybody but white men.


Which people? Could you be more specific so that we could establish the truth of your assertion?



Nate Miller said:


> you do realize that "Equality" is a myth, right?


And again, could you explain what you take "Equality" to be? I suspect that if you think it's a myth, your version of "Equality" is not the one under discussion here.



Nate Miller said:


> this is how you talk about an issue like this.


So, you agree there should be a level playing field?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

I for one don't think there's a conspiracy going on against women or minorities. But I do think there's a systemic bias. Just because it's systemic doesn't mean it's always deliberate or organised. cf Sarah Kirkland Snider's account of her experiences, or Doug Shadle's examination of how discrimination can happen in orchestral programming without anyone necessarily intending it to. Or attitudes like "well, maybe it will turn out men are better composers than women anyway" asserted without evidence.

I came across this yesterday, which is a response to an article that was very dismissive of female composers. I found the post very funny, though I know others may differ. Actually I'm only mentioning it because down among the comments I found this exchange between a commenter and the blogger:
Commenter: "I'm just going to say that I was composing whole musicals and concertos at the age of 13 and gave up because I saw more female role-models in *science* than in music composition (I'm now trying to work in cognitive neuroscience). I'm sure I wouldn't have been a 'great', had I stuck at music, but it says something about the chances of great women composers becoming recognised as a 'great' that I felt that female role-models in science were more abundantly available."
Blogger: "Yep. When I was in my early teens, I had the idea I wanted to become a conductor. But before I told my family, I had to check Google to see if women could even be conductors because I'd never seen any and I didn't know if there was some secret rule against them or what. This would have been around 2002 or 2003. Same thing with me; I wouldn't have been a great conductor. Probably not even a good one. But that doesn't matter because if I had issues knowing, then that probably means other more gifted girls had issues knowing, too, and we've lost them now to things like science or writing or performing or who knows what else."
Now, obviously teenagers give up on their hoped-for careers all the time, for various reasons, and the world is full of people who never did become composers or conductors. And in those two accounts there's no one actually committing discrimination against the two girls. And moreover, neither of them has said they're actually unhappy with how their lives turned out. But when we talk about level playing fields or equality of opportunity, this is the sort of thing we want to address: eliminate that thought "but I'm a girl". And make men realise the background-level inequalities that go on all the time that they never experience.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Nereffid said:


> I'm not suggesting that the criteria should be adjusted downwards. In fact I'm not talking about the job selection process at all! If no women apply, or none of those have the right qualifications, it might be because there are barriers in place that prevent women from getting those qualifications in the first place.
> 
> So, do you think there's a systemic bias against women in classical music?


We seem to be going the houses here unnecessarily. I will try to spell it out a bit further.

I'm saying that if a job is advertised (any job) and the eligibility criteria are fair and reasonable, given the nature/requirements of the job, then I would normally expect to see applicants from both sexes applying. This obviously excludes gender specific types of job like "soprano". Such exceptional cases aside, if it happened in a particular job on a particular occasion that no females applied, or possibly only a small number in relation to the number of men, then I would not necessarily be surprised. Only if it could shown that this course of events was common and applied across a wide number of alternative employers, so that the market appeared to be closed, then it would seem that there could be several possible explanations, or combinations of explanations:

(i) Women may tend not to like doing the kind of job under examination, and may generally prefer to seek out other occupations that they consider better suit them. For example, driving a large public service vehicle, like a bus/coach, in a large city may not be uppermost in many women's list of ideal jobs.

(ii) More women might like to apply for the jobs being advertised but they lack the necessary qualifications, so they do not apply. In this case, it is up to women to adjust their qualification profiles in order to improve their prospects of securing this type of job. I guess it is conceivable that women may be precluded unfairly in some instances from obtaining the necessary qualifications, but if so the matter should be taken up with the relevant training bodies. In the main, I would think that normal market mechanisms should suffice well enough to allow women to shop around the various training facilities in order to acquire all the qualifications that may required.

(iii) Women may generally have all the necessary qualifications for the jobs in question, and would like to apply for those jobs, but they put off doing so out of suspicion (justified or not) that there may be some hidden barriers to entry in certain cases, such that they perceive it would be a waste of their time pursuing an application. I doubt that the problem is big enough these days in most advanced countries to warrant large-scale intervention across the entire spectrum of possible employees. Again, normal forces would normally be expected to sort out any local difficulties, which may or may not involve any actual change being made in recruitment procedures. For example, more women might wish to join Orchestra X, but if the management and paying customers of that Orchestra are content with the way things are then as far as I'm concerned the customer is sovereign, and no changes should be forced on that particular orchestra. The situation might be different if the problem was endemic across a wide range of orchestras in any single country so that women faced a much larger difficulty in gaining employment. As far as I'm aware this is no longer the case in most countries.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

> And you believe that your experience is sufficient to justify dismissing the experiences reported by others?


in as much as I am a musician and I have been around professional musicians all my life and I have never in 40 years of professional playing known any musician to be racist or sexist, yes. If we are talking about racism and sexism as it applies to hiring musicians, yes, I think I put everyone's mind at ease there. That doesn't happen in this world today. 50 years ago, completely different story, but not today.



> Which people? Could you be more specific so that we could establish the truth of your assertion?


you guys. You people on this thread talking equality



> And again, could you explain what you take "Equality" to be? I suspect that if you think it's a myth, your version of "Equality" is not the one under discussion here.


I am trying to discern what you people mean by that myself. It sounds like there should be the same number of people doing the same thing. Sounds sort of like communism to me. Treating people equally when they clearly aren't equal and all that

ok, I got a couple questions myself....

exactly what does this "Level playing field" mean? Are we all to grow up with a harpsichord in the house and a father who likes to build them? That is actually a great environment to come from. One of my friends got to grow up in a house like that and after years of hard work and dedication she became a serious professional player.

and do you realize how hard it is just to support yourself for a lifetime doing nothing but playing?
you nearly have to take a vow of poverty.

Most professional musicians have to take a regular job to support themselves.

so given that there are lots of musicians and not nearly enough work what exactly about the present day are we complaining about again?

Let me tell you something...you don't need to worry about equality for conductors and choreographers and composers....you need to worry about the fact that there is not enough work for anybody anymore

I say if you want more equality, the answer is open up more venues. Create new revenue streams to support your musicians in your community. Form a local club that raises money and hires local players to put on recitals for you local community. Tie that into your local schools and get kids out to see that and then have the means to connect students with good local teachers. That sort of thing

or you can just attack me. I'm cool with it


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> You people on this thread talking equality
> 
> I am trying to discern what you people mean by that myself. It sounds like there should be the same number of people doing the same thing. Sounds sort of like communism to me. Treating people equally when they clearly aren't equal and all that


In this post I explained my view of equality. In this post I gave an example of what I mean by a levelled playing field.

These are really basic things, they don't require communism to bring about.

Imagine you have twins, a son and a daughter. Imagine they both want to be - oh, you know what, if you can't work out where I'm going with this, then there's no point in me continuing.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> In this post I explained my view of equality. In this post I gave an example of what I mean by a levelled playing field.
> 
> These are really basic things, they don't require communism to bring about.
> 
> Imagine you have twins, a son and a daughter. Imagine they both want to be - oh, you know what, if you can't work out where I'm going with this, then there's no point in me continuing.


you are talking about "barriers" but I still don't know what you mean. I'm trying hard to relate this to my experience as a working musician and I just can't. I just don't understand what barriers you mean because I've never known musicians who were racist or sexist.

the real "barrier" is that there isn't enough work to be had for everybody

it is one thing to have a lot of high flying rhetoric, but I need to put food on the table. So in real terms please do say what a level playing field would look like for working musicians.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Nate Miller said:


> in as much as I am a musician and I have been around professional musicians all my life and I have never in 40 years of professional playing known any musician to be racist or sexist, yes. If we are talking about racism and sexism as it applies to hiring musicians, yes, I think I put everyone's mind at ease there. That doesn't happen in this world today. 50 years ago, completely different story, but not today.
> 
> I was thinking about the general principle - you know - other people that you've not met who have different experiences from you? I mean, I've never experienced racism either, but I don't doubt that others do. (My son tells me about a place he's been to called India, but I've no experience of it - perhaps I should dismiss his story as fantasy.)
> 
> ...


Asking you to explain your point of view is not attacking - but if it feels like that, I'm sorry.



Nate Miller said:


> So in real terms please do say what a level playing field would look like for working musicians.


Stick to the OP, which is about working classical musicians and composers. Try this article: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/why-has-classical-music-been-so-gender-biased-for-so-long/

There is nothing wrong in asking what the statistics point to - no need to leap to conclusions - but if the question is, for example, why did it take until 2011 for there to be female principal in brass or woodwind in a major London orchestra, an answer should be sought. If the answer was simply that none was good enough, the inevitable question would be, "Why? Are women incapable of reaching the same standard as men?"


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Alright, let me throw this out there again: https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/candy-...male-composers-gendered-language-and-emotion/ which is an actual woman describing her actual experiences as a classical composer.

And repost these: 
Commenter: "I'm just going to say that I was composing whole musicals and concertos at the age of 13 and gave up because I saw more female role-models in *science* than in music composition (I'm now trying to work in cognitive neuroscience). I'm sure I wouldn't have been a 'great', had I stuck at music, but it says something about the chances of great women composers becoming recognised as a 'great' that I felt that female role-models in science were more abundantly available."
Blogger: "Yep. When I was in my early teens, I had the idea I wanted to become a conductor. But before I told my family, I had to check Google to see if women could even be conductors because I'd never seen any and I didn't know if there was some secret rule against them or what. This would have been around 2002 or 2003. Same thing with me; I wouldn't have been a great conductor. Probably not even a good one. But that doesn't matter because if I had issues knowing, then that probably means other more gifted girls had issues knowing, too, and we've lost them now to things like science or writing or performing or who knows what else."
which is two actual women talking about how they were put off of careers in classical music because of their perception that it was not a world that welcomed women.

And maybe also repost this one: https://www.icareifyoulisten.com/20...mination-burden-sameness-american-orchestras/ which makes it clear that there can be a systemic bias without there being lots of actual sexists or racists.

Can you really not see what the barriers are?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

> Can you really not see what the barriers are?


yea, sounds like chicks give up too easy

but I'm out...you guys convinced me...there's a grand conspiracy to make sure women and minorities never get to see their dreams fulfilled. We passed that resolution unanimously at our last White Man's meeting in the fall


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> yea, sounds like chicks give up too easy


Oh FFS.

You know, if you'd just said that at the start you would have saved some of us the bother of trying to use reason and facts.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

In the UK since the _2010 Equality Act:

_(a) It is against the law to discriminate against anyone of the following "protected characteristic": because of age, being or becoming a transsexual person, being married or in a civil partnership, being pregnant or on maternity leave, disability, race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin, religion, belief or lack of religion/belief, sex, sexual orientation.

(b) The above provision apply at work, in education, as a consumer, when using public services, when buying or renting property, as a member or guest of a private club or association. They also applies to people who are associated with someone who has a protected characteristic, e.g. a family member or friend, and to anyone who has complained about discrimination or supported someone else's claim.

(c) Discrimination can take the form of: direct discrimination (treating someone with a protected characteristic less favourably than others), indirect discrimination (putting rules or arrangements in place that apply to everyone, but that put someone with a protected characteristic at an unfair disadvantage), harassment (unwanted behaviour linked to a protected characteristic that violates someone's dignity or creates an offensive environment for them), victimisation (treating someone unfairly because they've complained about discrimination or harassment).​
In principle, the above seems to provide a very comprehensive level of protection against unfair discrimination in the UK. Therefore, I'm not clear what problems if any are being argued about in the UK. If possibly some organisations may have found ways around the rules in certain parts of the music industry (or elsewhere), it would interesting to learn exactly what those dodges are. If any can be documented, they might be matters that the individuals concerned could take up with their MP, Citizen's Right Bureau, or a legal adviser.

Outside the UK, I have hardly any idea what anti-discrimination legislation exists. Although I have a high regard for the USA, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not up to a similarly high level in that country. I would guess that it's not far (or possibly even tougher) off in some other parts of Western Europe.

I am going to deny myself the opportunity to respond to any of the more "political" points that have been made. Beyond what I wrote earlier in the thread, I don't have much more to add to this thread, except to thank Macleod for raising it, for having the opportunity to see some very amusing exchanges involving others (still ongoing), and for the discussions that I have had.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> Alright, let me throw this out there again: https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/candy-...male-composers-gendered-language-and-emotion/ which is an actual woman describing her actual experiences as a classical composer.
> 
> And repost these:
> Commenter: "I'm just going to say that I was composing whole musicals and concertos at the age of 13 and gave up because I saw more female role-models in *science* than in music composition (I'm now trying to work in cognitive neuroscience). I'm sure I wouldn't have been a 'great', had I stuck at music, but it says something about the chances of great women composers becoming recognised as a 'great' that I felt that female role-models in science were more abundantly available."
> ...


These woman gave up on their own. How would you have solved that problem would you make it where the numbers in a job have to be filled by a certain percentage of each gender and if you do not meet these percentages companies will be fined?


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

In another musical internet forum I advocated for an additional emoticon, a snare drum rim shot. I've only been here a short time, but I am now advocating for the emoticon drone, as in when something flies right over someone's head.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> These woman gave up on their own.


I don't think nereffid was offering his examples that in these specific cases there was unequivocal evidence of prejudice by a third party, but that these were examples of people _reporting _their experience of prejudice - to counter Nate's assertion that there can't have been any because he's not experienced any.



Johnnie Burgess said:


> How would you have solved that problem would you make it where the numbers in a job have to be filled by a certain percentage of each gender and if you do not meet these percentages companies will be fined?


Positive action and positive discrimination is one way of dealing with - though not necessarily solving - the problem. For example, according to wiki, both the Labour Party and the Liberal Democratic Party in the UK have decided to permit all-women shortlists in some constituencies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-women_shortlist


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> I don't think nereffid was offering his examples that in these specific cases there was unequivocal evidence of prejudice by a third party, but that these were examples of people _reporting _their experience of prejudice - to counter Nate's assertion that there can't have been any because he's not experienced any.
> 
> Positive action and positive discrimination is one way of dealing with - though not necessarily solving - the problem. For example, according to wiki, both the Labour Party and the Liberal Democratic Party in the UK have decided to permit all-women shortlists in some constituencies.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-women_shortlist


So by that example the NBA in America is racist. Over 70% of the players are African-American so whites are denied white role models to encourage them to want to play professional basketball in the U.S.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> I don't think nereffid was offering his examples that in these specific cases there was unequivocal evidence of prejudice by a third party, but that these were examples of people _reporting _their experience of prejudice - to counter Nate's assertion that there can't have been any because he's not experienced any.


In fact for one of the examples - the "giving up" by the young teenagers (not, in fact, _women_) - when I originally posted it I explicitly stated "in those two accounts there's no one actually committing discrimination against the two girls."
There doesn't have to be active prejudice for women or minorities to be made feel like the classical world isn't for them. It could be something as simple as... oh, I don't know... looking at a classical music forum and seeing various men repeatedly say that women, sorry, I mean _chicks_, are just quitters. Who wants to join a club that doesn't want you as a member?
Of course the Doug Shadle article I linked to a couple of times goes through the inadvertent ways women composers can get excluded.



Johnnie Burgess said:


> So by that example the NBA in America is racist. Over 70% of the players are African-American so whites are denied white role models to encourage them to want to play professional basketball in the U.S.


Yes, poor white people, never getting a break!  If you want, we can have a detailed discussion of the historic factors that have affected how women and minorities have been treated, and how these factors affect career choices even today, long after they have (according to some) been eliminated. But given the way the discussion's gone so far, I'm not wildly enthusiastic...


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> In fact for one of the examples - the "giving up" by the young teenagers (not, in fact, _women_) - when I originally posted it I explicitly stated "in those two accounts there's no one actually committing discrimination against the two girls."
> There doesn't have to be active prejudice for women or minorities to be made feel like the classical world isn't for them. It could be something as simple as... oh, I don't know... looking at a classical music forum and seeing various men repeatedly say that women, sorry, I mean _chicks_, are just quitters. Who wants to join a club that doesn't want you as a member?
> Of course the Doug Shadle article I linked to a couple of times goes through the inadvertent ways women composers can get excluded.
> 
> Yes, poor white people, never getting a break!  If you want, we can have a detailed discussion of the historic factors that have affected how women and minorities have been treated, and how these factors affect career choices even today, long after they have (according to some) been eliminated. But given the way the discussion's gone so far, I'm not wildly enthusiastic...


So you would say it would be right to discriminate against white people now?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Nereffid said:


> There doesn't have to be active prejudice for women or minorities to be made feel like the classical world isn't for them. It could be something as simple as... oh, I don't know... looking at a classical music forum and seeing various men repeatedly say that women, sorry, I mean _chicks_, are just quitters. Who wants to join a club that doesn't want you as a member?
> Of course the Doug Shadle article I linked to a couple of times goes through the inadvertent ways women composers can get excluded.


A perfect example of subtle prejudicial pressure ... A young woman when told that she needed to pick a second instrument, asked for the horn. The teach said "Horns are for boys" and suggested that she choose the flute instead. Fortunately she persisted and became the first woman horn player in the Berlin Philharmonic. BUT, how many would have quietly gone along with the teacher rather than persisting? I am sure that there is less of that now when it comes to instruments but what about conducting? It is only a couple of years since we were hearing similar types of comments from such people as Jorma Pannula, Mariss Jansons and Vasily Petrenko.

P.S. If you want to read about a particularly blunt case of discrimination, look up the pianist Sara Davis Buechner.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Nereffid said:


> Alright, let me throw this out there again: https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/candy-...male-composers-gendered-language-and-emotion/ which is an actual woman describing her actual experiences as a classical composer.
> 
> And repost these:
> Commenter: "I'm just going to say that I was composing whole musicals and concertos at the age of 13 and gave up because I saw more female role-models in *science* than in music composition (I'm now trying to work in cognitive neuroscience). I'm sure I wouldn't have been a 'great', had I stuck at music, but it says something about the chances of great women composers becoming recognised as a 'great' that I felt that female role-models in science were more abundantly available."
> ...


I found the part in that article about the teacher saying that the only female composers who were more successful wrote "masculine music" true. It seems the way for female composers to succeed crossing the gender barrier is to write music that crosses the gender barrier, or what is perceived that way.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> I found the part in that article about the teacher saying that the only female composers who were more successful wrote "masculine music" true. It seems the way for female composers to succeed crossing the gender barrier is to write music that crosses the gender barrier, or what is perceived that way.


I asked before if there is a difference between music composed by women compared to that composed by men, like there is with film directors. So Phil, how would you describe the difference between man music and woman music?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

'_[Jorma] Panula went on to suggest that female conductor's may be effective when conducting more feminine music. "They can come [to my masterclasses] and try," said Panula. "It's not a problem - if they choose the right pieces, if they take more feminine music. Bruckner or Stravinsky will not do, but Debussy is okay. This is purely an issue of biology."'_

For those unfamiliar with Pannula, he is a very successful composer and teacher of conducting. His students include Esa-Pekka Salonen, Sakari Oramo and Jukka-Pekka Saraste.


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

White privilege and all those concepts invented by sjw, feminist and so forth is such a cancer for humanity. They like to see inequality, opression and victims everywhere. Like the me too movement where an allégation can ruin your life because we all know womans never ever lie so we have to accept at facevalue their facebook post and forget about justice and put all those vile mens in prison. Except in the public life, TV, medias all of this is lefty concepts of equality, feminism and social justice is lauh at except from the minorities whi will always see themselves as victims. Thats sad


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Becca said:


> P.S. If you want to read about a particularly blunt case of discrimination, look up the pianist Sara Davis Buechner.


Thanks for that, I had never heard her story. I don't need my analogy involving twins anymore.

Her surname was familiar though, and I found I have one of her recordings from when she was known as David - some piano-and-orchestra pieces by film composers (Herrman, Waxman, and North). I'll have to update the metadata...


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Machiavel said:


> White privilege and all those concepts invented by sjw, feminist and so forth is such a cancer for humanity. They like to see inequality, opression and victims everywhere. Like the me too movement where an allégation can ruin your life because we all know womans never ever lie so we have to accept at facevalue their facebook post and forget about justice and put all those vile mens in prison. Except in the public life, TV, medias all of this is lefty concepts of equality, feminism and social justice is lauh at except from the minorities whi will always see themselves as victims. Thats sad


Donald? Is that you?


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2018)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> So by that example the NBA in America is racist. Over 70% of the players are African-American so whites are denied white role models to encourage them to want to play professional basketball in the U.S.


Sorry - I don't see how you make that connection.



Johnnie Burgess said:


> So you would say it would be right to discriminate against white people now?


You need to ask?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nereffid said:


> If you want, we can have a detailed discussion of the historic factors that have affected how women and minorities have been treated, and how these factors affect career choices even today, long after they have (according to some) been eliminated. But given the way the discussion's gone so far, I'm not wildly enthusiastic...





Johnnie Burgess said:


> So you would say it would be right to discriminate against white people now?


I feel my lack of enthusiasm has not been misplaced.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Tulse said:


> I asked before if there is a difference between music composed by women compared to that composed by men, like there is with film directors. So Phil, how would you describe the difference between man music and woman music?


Woman music is pink, man music is blue, of course.
this is woman music




this is man music


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2018)

Jacck said:


> Woman music is pink, man music is blue, of course.
> this is woman music
> 
> 
> ...


Both examples of ghastly movie music...pink or blue makes no difference. It just goes to show that too often, movie music resorts to simplistic tropes for ease of audience recognition.8


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

but there is gender specific listening
https://musicmachinery.com/2014/02/10/gender-specific-listening/
women listen to more to pop, men listen more to rock. But the question again is: is this cultural or biological?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Jacck said:


> but there is gender specific listening
> https://musicmachinery.com/2014/02/10/gender-specific-listening/
> women listen to more to pop, men listen more to rock. But the question again is: is this cultural or biological?


As I've said elsewhere, I think cultural/social aspects run very deep. Obviously there are some gender differences that are purely biological (e.g. babies!) so it's not unreasonable to suggest that there could be some sort of biological (maybe neurophysiological would be a better word) basis for gender differences in things like personality traits and, from there, musical differences. Is something like a pop/rock divide visible in prehistoric societies or ape groups? That's the sort of thing you'd have to show; human culture (on a broad level) and "western" culture (more specifically, if we're talking pop/rock) have been around a long time, enough for gender-specific behaviours to become very deep-seated.
_(Edit to add: male aggression is an obvious candidate for a biological difference, and so one could easily see a link to hard rock there. But still, the notions surrounding masculinity are very societal.)_

(And, as an aside, I can't help noticing that all the evidence being presented against the existence of bias against women in classical music comes from areas other than classical music...)

But back to that quoted analysis. The author of the blog post himself makes this very important point in response to a comment:


> Indeed - making predictions about an individual based on aggregate data is always risky and potentially inflammatory. There are lots of examples of racist recommendations that result from blind reliance on data to drive recommendations. There are two challenges - one is to understand what we can learn from the data - but the other, and this maybe the bigger challenge, is to figure out the best way to use this knowledge without crossing the creepy or inappropriate line.


_Even if_ there are genuine non-societal differences in what sort of music women compose, or in the proportion of women versus men who want to become conductors, or in the basketball abilities of the races, the whole point about "equality of opportunity" is that those sorts of _general_ differences shouldn't be imposed on an _individual_ level.


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## San Antone (Feb 15, 2018)

Since 2014 I have been reaching out to new composers and asking them a set of questions about their influences, process and work. Over that time (including a break during 2016 and most of 2017, I estimate that I have interviewed around 75 composers, split about 50:50 between men and women. I don't purposely try for that average, it depends upon who responds to my inquiry, plus there are many women composers working these days, maybe more than men under the age of 40.

I have listened to their works and did not find a predictable aspect in the music, i.e., oh, that was written by a woman.

The period we are living in, right now, is very exciting for new music; these young composers, men and women, are writing fantastic, engaging and very listenable (imo) music incorporating a very wide variety of styles.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

San Antone said:


> I have listened to their works and did not find a predictable aspect in the music, i.e., oh, that was written by a woman.


If I had enough data, I would test it scientifically. I would use machine learning (such as random forest or deep learning algorithms). If I had a set of 500 works written by men and women, I would train the machine learning (pattern recognition) classifier on 980 cases and then test on the remaining 20, if the classifier could predict the gender based on music alone. (then of course rotate, ie train on a different set, test on a different set). In this way, I would obtain a pretty reliable scientific and objective proof, whether there are some music elements that are gender specific.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> _Even if_ there are genuine non-societal differences in what sort of music women compose, or in the proportion of women versus men who want to become conductors, or in the basketball abilities of the races, the whole point about "equality of opportunity" is that those sorts of _general_ differences shouldn't be imposed on an _individual_ level.


Nicely stated. Blind auditions help remove some biases for orchestral performers, but we don't have a reasonable method doing blind auditions for composers. Past experience seems to show that only by including members of an excluded group into the larger group do people start to accept that those differences do not matter.



Jacck said:


> If I had enough data, I would test it scientifically. I would use machine learning (such as random forest or deep learning algorithms). If I had a set of 500 works written by men and women, I would train the machine learning (pattern recognition) classifier on 980 cases and then test on the remaining 20, if the classifier could predict the gender based on music alone. (then of course rotate, ie train on a different set, test on a different set). In this way, I would obtain a pretty reliable scientific and objective proof, whether there are some music elements that are gender specific.


That study would be rather interesting. The study would not tell us whether such differences were non-societal or time independent. Also such algorithms generally would not tell us what the differences were but only that such differences likely exist.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> That study would be rather interesting. The study would not tell us whether such differences were non-societal or time independent. Also such algorithms generally would not tell us what the differences were but only that such differences likely exist.


I have already done similar things with human brains. I used machine learning to classify male vs female brain based just on the so called resting-state functional connectivity. (this is independent of the size of the brain, since the brains get normalized to a common size and the wiring (the connectivity) counts). I could classify males from females with about 70% accuracy. You can also use some kind of feature ranking to see what features actually contribute to the classification most. There definitely are brain differences between males and females, and also hormons effect the brain to a certain degree. Brains under the influence of testosterone get masculinized and are better at visual spatial orientation tasks etc. Female brains are better at communication. 
Again, I do not know if there are any biological gender differences relating to perception or creation of music and I am not aware of any such serious research


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

I know I said I was done with this...but its like a train wreck...I just can't look away

so let me admit that music is a boys club. Always was. but the thing is that I've never known a musician who was racist or sexist

what got me back in was the talk about choosing instruments. it is a fact that there are instruments that are male dominated. I'm a guitarist and the ranks of guitar players is a sausage factory. I have known a lot of women who played guitar and did very well for themselves, but they were always the exception. so clearly women can do it, but not very many of them actually choose to do it.

how do you account for that?

isn't that a lot like the IT fields that are very male dominated but that would be glad to hire women if any of them ever applied?

how does that fit with the notion that women are being actively excluded? 

remember that my stand is that nobody is keeping anybody down, it's just that there isn't enough work for everyone to have an opportunity regardless of who they are. Hell, I have to hold a day job myself. I wanted to just play music for a living, but I didn't get to do that. There was much more money to be had writing software, so I chose to do that to pay bills and play the things I wanted to play and not live like a pauper. Was I discriminated against? because I was given that very scenario as an example to prove women are discriminated against. 

but I'm saying that ALL musicians are getting squeezed, so if you want opportunity for your daughters, just make more opportunity for everyone.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Jacck said:


> I have already done similar things with human brains. I used machine learning to classify male vs female brain based just on the so called resting-state functional connectivity. (this is independent of the size of the brain, since the brains get normalized to a common size and the wiring (the connectivity) counts). I could classify males from females with about 70% accuracy. ...


Do you use evolutionary (genetic) algorithms? Also do people in the field think progress will increase the 70% accuracy or do they believe that there exists too much overlap between male and female neurophysiology? Finally, how much does the neurophysiology change with development and learning causing a male looking functional connectivity to later look more like a female functional connectivity (and vice versa)?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> Do you use evolutionary (genetic) algorithms? Also do people in the field think progress will increase the 70% accuracy or do they believe that there exists too much overlap between male and female neurophysiology? Finally, how much does the neurophysiology change with development and learning causing a male looking functional connectivity to later look more like a female functional connectivity (and vice versa)?


when I did my PhD some 8 years ago, there was a lot of hope that machine learning could be used to diagnose psychiatric disorders from the brainscans. Suppose you scan someones brain with fMRI and you have trained classifiers for schizophrenia, for autism, for depression or even for sexual orientation. Then you could predict a certain profile of the brain. But the hopes were not realized. The largest classification accuracy was with things like early Alzheimer 85%, schizophrenia is about 70%, sexual orientation about 60%. The specificity and senzitivity of such tests is too low to be practically relevant.
I did not use genetic althorithms, although I am sure someone else has. The algorithm that I was using then and that I am kind of fond of is random forest. I have also some experience with manifold learning methods. 
No, I do not think that the accuracy will improve much in the future. The signal is simply not there in the data. If it was, someone would have already found it. 
Concerning your last question, I think hormones can change the brains. If you give testosterone to females, there brains will be rebuild to a certain extent and will be masculinized, their behavior also changes, they become more aggressive etc. There is even some evidence, that feminists are masculinized females
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4158978/
(I am not sure about the male feminists such as Tulse though )


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Nate Miller said:


> ...I have known a lot of women who played guitar and did very well for themselves, but they were always the exception. so clearly women can do it, but not very many of them actually choose to do it.
> 
> how do you account for that?
> 
> ...


Well, Becca started a thread showing fairly clear bias against female conductors. I don't doubt that bias still exists.

But I think the bigger effect is not active bias (exclusion) by individuals but rather societal bias at earlier stages in peoples' development. When women are subtly (and not so subtly) pushed from exploring certain fields or even from being considered smart, that "push" can deter someone from doing what's necessary or useful to later become a conductor, a composer, or, for example, a physicist. That "push" is not always easy to identify or to assess its effect, but those actions would be examples of creating an unlevel playing field. Of course such actions would require immense effort to eliminate.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> But I think the bigger effect is not active bias (exclusion) by individuals but rather societal bias at earlier stages in peoples' development.


This keeps getting pointed out and keeps getting ignored.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> But I think the bigger effect is not active bias (exclusion) by individuals but rather societal bias at earlier stages in peoples' development. When women are subtly (and not so subtly) pushed from exploring certain fields or even from being considered smart, that "push" can deter someone from doing what's necessary or useful to later become a conductor, a composer, or, for example, a physicist. That "push" is not always easy to identify or to assess its effect, but those actions would be examples of creating an unlevel playing field. Of course such actions would require immense effort to eliminate.


I am not sure it is all just cultural programming, as the feminists like to believe. I think there was even some research done that showed that small male and female children show different preference for toys
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160715114739.htm
So I would not underestimate biology. The brains and behaviors of males and females differ innately based just on biology. 
But how big are the biological differences and what areas of life do they concern? Nobody knows. It is impossible in practice to sift the cultural bias from the biological determination. There is a difference between a male and a female brain. But how big? Nobody knows.
But we should of course try to remove gender stereotypes, but we should also be aware that some differences might indeed exist and they do exist.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

May I refer back to my post number 61 where I set out a summary of the current UK legislative position on "equality".

These provisions (Equality Act 2010) would seem to provide for all the necessary protection that may be required to deal with all aspects of unfair discrimination. I set out a summary in my earlier post.

I'm slightly astonished that none of the above seems to have registered with the parties in this thread (especially the few Brits) who have seemingly been continuing to discuss the issues as if they are unaware that it's all been done and dusted in the UK. I haven't seen anything that any one of them has stated on the subject that isn't covered in this legislation.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> This keeps getting pointed out and keeps getting ignored.


It's harder to see and especially so if one's world view would be harmed by such ideas. I don't say that as a put down. It's simply true for everyone. Here the question becomes how much effort and money ought society to invest to ensure that all people have a level or more level playing field? We don't really know exactly what to do, how much money would be required, or how long such a project would take. I imagine it would be easy to shoot holes in any proposal aimed at seriously leveling the playing field for all opportunities.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> This keeps getting pointed out and keeps getting ignored.


and to think that this is the part of this that I actually agree happens

I mentioned this regarding my instrument

and while we are on the subject, where are all the women jazz tenor sax players?

well, back in the bebop era there were certain things ladies just did not do. Blowing sax till 3am was one of them


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

mmsbls said:


> It's harder to see and especially so if one's world view would be harmed by such ideas. I don't say that as a put down. It's simply true for everyone. Here the question becomes how much effort and money ought society to invest to ensure that all people have a level or more level playing field? We don't really know exactly what to do, how much money would be required, or how long such a project would take. I imagine it would be easy to shoot holes in any proposal aimed at seriously leveling the playing field for all opportunities.


so you say we need to force women to do what they do not want to do?

what is stopping a woman today from picking up a guitar? a tenor sax? the double bass? the drum kit?

what happens when people just make choices on their own and we don't end up with an even distribution of races and sexes?

should we integrate the NHL? maybe bus in players from the NBA?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Genoveva said:


> May I refer back to my post number 61 where I set out a summary of the current UK legislative position on "equality".
> 
> These provisions (Equality Act 2010) would seem to provide for all the necessary protection that may be required to deal with all aspects of unfair discrimination. I set out a summary in my earlier post.
> 
> I'm slightly astonished that none of the above seems to have registered with the parties in this thread (especially the few Brits) who have seemingly been continuing to discuss the issues as if they are unaware that it's all been done and dusted in the UK. I haven't seen anything that any one of them has stated on the subject that isn't covered in this legislation.


It's a good point, and obviously these laws are good and helpful, but perhaps there hasn't been a response because the discussion here is more about the subtle biases in perception than about things that can be covered by legislation. A 13-year-old girl being put off pursuing an interest in a musical career because the field seems way too male to her isn't something that an anti-discrimination law can do anything about.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Jacck said:


> I am not sure it is all just cultural programming, as the feminists like to believe. I think there was even some research done that showed that small male and female children show different preference for toys
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160715114739.htm
> So I would not underestimate biology. The brains and behaviors of males and females differ innately based just on biology. ...


I'm close to certain that cultural programming does not account for all behavioral differences between the sexes, and I agree that it's extremely hard to untangle societal from genetic and early developmental effects.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

mmsbls said:


> It's harder to see and especially so if one's world view would be harmed by such ideas. I don't say that as a put down. It's simply true for everyone. Here the question becomes how much effort and money ought society to invest to ensure that all people have a level or more level playing field? We don't really know exactly what to do, how much money would be required, or how long such a project would take. I imagine it would be easy to shoot holes in any proposal aimed at seriously leveling the playing field for all opportunities.


In some aspects of the equality issue, society needs to invest zero money and almost no effort.

Let's go back to Sarah Kirkland Snider's article again!


> Several teachers called my music "feminine," a word whose meaning varied by context and instructor. One of these teachers raised this point as a matter of genuine, solemn care and concern, sharing with me his belief that the handful of 20th-century female composers who had found success had done so because they wrote "masculine" music. The way I set a Gertrude Stein text, he said, was overly brooding, emotional-in short, too feminized.


Not saying stuff like this, is free. Not telling 13-year-old girls that they give up too easily is pretty cheap too. Listening to women when they say they experience discrimination, well okay, that seems like hard work for some, but at least it doesn't cost anything.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

but can't people be "equal under the law" without being "the same"?

I mean, if women and men were the same we wouldn't need the WNBA, right?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> Not saying stuff like this, is free. Not telling 13-year-old girls that they give up too easily is pretty cheap too. Listening to women when they say they experience discrimination, well okay, that seems like hard work for some, but at least it doesn't cost anything.


and maybe a life in music is a really hard life for anybody who want to try it and lots of people opt out and do something else for a living

maybe I'm not understanding you, but you seem to be saying that just wanting to do something entitles you somehow

I'll admit, its nice work....if you can get it


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> maybe I'm not understanding you, but you seem to be saying that just wanting to do something entitles you somehow


I am *SO* not saying that.

(Rest of post not written because of how much of the ToS it would violate)


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

well, it sure sounded that way

besides, telling a 13 year old that they should give up on music try a career in engineering is EXACTLY what my father said to me, but did I hang it up? Heck no! I just went out there and booked more gigs and drove the old man nuts

who knows what fantastic music we have missed out on simply because the person wasn't strong enough to go and beat their head against the wall that is the music business?

that's part of it, too, you know

so instead of blaming white men and society why don't we just pick up our sock and get on with it? that's free, too, pal


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Genoveva said:


> May I refer back to my post number 61 where I set out a summary of the current UK legislative position on "equality".
> 
> These provisions (Equality Act 2010) would seem to provide for all the necessary protection that may be required to deal with all aspects of unfair discrimination. I set out a summary in my earlier post.
> 
> I'm slightly astonished that none of the above seems to have registered with the parties in this thread (especially the few Brits) who have seemingly been continuing to discuss the issues as if they are unaware that it's all been done and dusted in the UK. I haven't seen anything that any one of them has stated on the subject that isn't covered in this legislation.


As Nereffid noted, the problem is often at a much more subtle level which rarely rises to being legally noticeable. I hate to say this but the reality is that any competent musical organization administrator who can't find some subtle ways to discriminate without overtly breaching the law, is probably not competent enough to have the job!


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Becca said:


> I hate to say this but the reality is that any competent musical organization administrator who can't find some subtle ways to discriminate without overtly breaching the law, is probably not competent enough to have the job!


do you mean they insist on hiring who they want to hire or are you saying that they are trying to advance a social agenda? and I do understand what you mean, though, because in a litigious society like the US you can be open for law suits if you can't document why you didn't hire somebody. And absolutely no company wants to have a judge force them to hire someone because they sued in court and won


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2018)

Jacck said:


> (I am not sure about the male feminists such as Tulse though )


Hey, I saw that!!! :lol:

My testosterone levels are quite fine thank you. Plenty of kefir and garlic does the job.










(By the way, haven't seen you downstairs for a bit.)


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2018)

Genoveva said:


> These provisions (Equality Act 2010) would seem to provide for all the necessary protection that may be required to deal with all aspects of unfair discrimination. [...]it's all been done and dusted in the UK.


There are laws against many things, but you might have noticed how busy law enforcement and justice systems are. I don't think discrimination is all 'done and dusted' in the UK just because there are laws.

One of the problems with how laws work is that someone has to complain, press charges and see it through the courts. I'm not suggesting that that is wrong, but it can take courage to complain in the first place, especially about a _potential _employer, and there are costs to pay and a lot of time required. What percentage of reported rapes end up in a conviction?: around 6% in 2002 in the UK.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Nate Miller said:


> well, it sure sounded that way
> 
> besides, telling a 13 year old that they should give up on music try a career in engineering is EXACTLY what my father said to me, but did I hang it up? Heck no! I just went out there and booked more gigs and drove the old man nuts
> 
> ...


Or be an engineer and have a career in music like Kurt Atterberg.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Nate Miller said:


> ...
> so instead of blaming white men and society why don't we just pick up our sock and get on with it? that's free, too, pal


I want to simply ask two questions. This link shows the historical increase in the percentage of women earning law and medical degrees in the US. In the early 1970s women earned under 10% of such degrees. Now they earn just under 50%. Could you suggest reasons for the enormous rise in the percentage of earned degrees over a 35 year period?

My best guess would include a significant decrease in systemic bias against women throughout their lives in areas that lead to professional degrees. Back in 1970 do you think most people in society expected women to approach parity with men in earning such degrees in a little over a generation?


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2018)

mmsbls said:


> . Could you suggest reasons for the enormous rise in the percentage of earned degrees over a 35 year period?
> 
> My best guess would include a significant decrease in systemic bias against women throughout their lives in areas that lead to professional degrees.


Yes, you are right. But it is also interesting to consider why the bias decreased. A big part of it must be due to the labour saving machines in the home, not just the success of feminism and the decency of men to agree with equality.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Tulse said:


> Yes, you are right. But it is also interesting to consider why the bias decreased. A big part of it must be due to the labour saving machines in the home, not just the success of feminism and the decency of men to agree with equality.


This links to a point I was going to make about biology. It's easy to look at the actual biological differences between men and women, including their roles in reproduction, and how these have affected gender roles over the course of human evolution, and conclude that it's natural for men being the ones going out doing the hard work and women staying at home to raise children, and for women to therefore be more interested in "nurturing" or "softer" roles and ideas. That all makes sense to me. But take something obvious like rape: there may be a solid biological reason why men have a propensity toward rape, but this doesn't mean either that all men are rapists or that rape shouldn't be regarded as a crime. Any argument from biology has to allow for the fact that, since those biological factors were put in place by evolution, we've developed civilisation and technology. The biology may still be there but the need to "obey" it is fading.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

It seems certain that there are major inborn psychological differences between males and females that are observable almost from birth, at least statistically. This is an area that has been well researched and documented, and there is plenty of information online from reputable sources. Anybody interested can find it easily. But many, of course, will prefer to have recourse to their ideologies rather than to fact.

I add that these differences will be quite apparent to anybody who has raised children of both sexes, as I have.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KenOC said:


> It seems certain that there are major inborn psychological differences between males and females that are observable almost from birth, at least statistically. This is an area that has been well researched and documented, and there is plenty of information online from reputable sources. Anybody interested can find it easily. But many, of course, will prefer to have recourse to their ideologies rather than to fact.
> 
> I add that these differences will be quite apparent to anybody who has raised children of both sexes, as I have.


Are we to ignore the LGBT community? It is conceivable that there exists a spectrum of human behaviors.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Tulse said:


> I asked before if there is a difference between music composed by women compared to that composed by men, like there is with film directors. So Phil, how would you describe the difference between man music and woman music?


No discernable difference at all. It can come down to just technique.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> There are laws against many things, but you might have noticed how busy law enforcement and justice systems are. I don't think discrimination is all 'done and dusted' in the UK just because there are laws.
> 
> One of the problems with how laws work is that someone has to complain, press charges and see it through the courts. I'm not suggesting that that is wrong, but it can take courage to complain in the first place, especially about a _potential _employer, and there are costs to pay and a lot of time required. What percentage of reported rapes end up in a conviction?: around 6% in 2002 in the UK.


As a career advisor in the UK, both I and employers were well aware of the Equality Act. Just one example: no employer would be stupid enough to advertise a vacancy stating "No female applications." No, but in the privacy of a conversation I was told that "I wouldn't employ a woman of child-bearing age." It probably should have shocked me more but I heard sentiments like that regularly. Yeah, it's done and dusted.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Jacck said:


> but there is gender specific listening
> https://musicmachinery.com/2014/02/10/gender-specific-listening/
> women listen to more to pop, men listen more to rock. But the question again is: is this cultural or biological?


Both. As you mentioned about toy preference, some is just biological. I always loved trains, cars, jets, when I was young, not based on anyone pushing me. So when there is music that sounds like motor rhythms, harsh strong sosunds, my ears prick up. But I believe there is more cultural bias in many things than apparent, it has to do with associations. In girl group musc from 60's, there is a lot of melodic pop with girl teenage angst lyrics. I still like the music, more than many females I've exposed the music to, but I don't dig the lyrics. My sis digged the lyrics, more than the music.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> It seems certain that there are major inborn psychological differences between males and females that are observable almost from birth, at least statistically. This is an area that has been well researched and documented, and there is plenty of information online from reputable sources. Anybody interested can find it easily. But many, of course, will prefer to have recourse to their ideologies rather than to fact.
> 
> I add that these differences will be quite apparent to anybody who has raised children of both sexes, as I have.


_And_ it's quite apparent that your proviso "at least statistically" is the crux of the argument.

The problem with taking "men and women are different" as the starting point in these discussions is that (as this thread clearly shows) it's so easy to teeter over into "... and therefore the problem women are talking about doesn't actually exist".


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

mmsbls said:


> Could you suggest reasons for the enormous rise in the percentage of earned degrees over a 35 year period?


yes. the women's liberation movement really started to make headway in the late 60s and early 70s

our society has changed so much that you really can't talk about what was happening then as if it was happening today.

When my mom went to college, women were there to get an "MRS" degree. I'm just saying how it was. Women in the workplace had been a fact since WWII, but there were jobs that were "women's jobs" and there was "man's work"

please don't lose your mind, I'm just talking about remembering a different time...

in 1970 the difference in pay was a real issue because there was this idea that men were supporting families and women were just there to make some extra money.

so 1970 should show up as a sea change in women getting technical degrees. It was socially acceptable finally for women to do that.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Nate Miller said:


> yes. the women's liberation movement really started to make headway in the late 60s and early 70s
> 
> our society has changed so much that you really can't talk about what was happening then as if it was happening today.
> 
> ...


I wrote, "My best guess would include a significant decrease in systemic bias against women throughout their lives in areas that lead to professional degrees."

I would say that everything you wrote are specific examples of what I wrote.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> yes. the women's liberation movement really started to make headway in the late 60s and early 70s
> 
> our society has changed so much that you really can't talk about what was happening then as if it was happening today.
> 
> ...


All true, but I think mmsbls's point was that if you were to have looked at the state of things in 1970, before any change, or in, say, 1981, when the graph he linked to suggests that medical degrees are starting to plateau in the mid-20s, then it would be easy enough to say that "this is the way it is" and assume parity wouldn't be reached because of some argument like "well, men and women are different, so why should it?" Similarly, if 50 years ago the number of new orchestral works by women being performed was, say, 5% (not sure what it actually was, but that might be an overestimate) and it's now about 15%, why would one assume that _this_ is the "natural" level and that there isn't something else still holding women back?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

mmsbls said:


> I wrote, "My best guess would include a significant decrease in systemic bias against women throughout their lives in areas that lead to professional degrees."
> 
> I would say that everything you wrote are specific examples of what I wrote.


that's because I'm agreeing with you


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> All true, but I think mmsbls's point was that if you were to have looked at the state of things in 1970, before any change, or in, say, 1981, when the graph he linked to suggests that medical degrees are starting to plateau in the mid-20s, then it would be easy enough to say that "this is the way it is" and assume parity wouldn't be reached because of some argument like "well, men and women are different, so why should it?" Similarly, if 50 years ago the number of new orchestral works by women being performed was, say, 5% (not sure what it actually was, but that might be an overestimate) and it's now about 15%, why would one assume that _this_ is the "natural" level and that there isn't something else still holding women back?


yea, thanks for explaining that 

just out of curiosity, how many gigs did you do last month? I know January is a lean month, but did you get to get out any at all?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Just to point out, that 15% comes from a survey of the 2014-15 US orchestral season and is based on a survey of the 22 largest orchestras.

The annual survey by Women in Music of the BBC Proms season is useful because it's been going on for 13 years. Whether the results are more positive is one of those glass-half-full situations. For instance, in 2015 women comprised 36% of the living composers being performed (11 out of 30), which seems impressive, but the report also revealed that in terms of actual minutes of music by living composers, the figure for women was only 11%. As the most recent survey puts it, women are "consistently represented by shorter works in smaller venues".

The survey in previous years also made reference to the orchestral season at the Southbank Centre. For 2011 to 2014, for example, the percentage of living composers who were women was 14%, 0%, 18.6%, and 17% (in fairness the 2012 season had very few living composers so it doesn't quite compare to the other ones).


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> yea, thanks for explaining that
> 
> just out of curiosity, how many gigs did you do last month? I know January is a lean month, but did you get to get out any at all?


I've probably spent about as much time gigging as either of us has spent being a female composer. What's your point, exactly? :lol:


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> I've probably spent about as much time gigging as either of us has spent being a female composer. What's your point, exactly? :lol:


my point is that I have been playing professionally for nearly 40 years and I was starting to get the idea that you really don't understand how the music business works, so I wanted to know if you were a working musician, or if you were a civilian

if you have never worked in this field, and yet you insist on telling me about how the music business works, then that would be sorta nutty, wouldn't it?

I mean, its great that you want to see everybody get a fair shake, but you are implying that there are people trying to keep people down, and I just never knew anybody in this business who thinks that way. Musicians are pretty progressive people, really. I keep saying the music business is stacked against EVERYBODY and only the few and the lucky get to earn a living doing nothing but playing. Honestly, on my instrument there may only be 10 players in the world at any one time who could put together a tour playing big concert halls and expect to sell enough tickets to make out.

so if somebody doesn't make it, that's not discrimination, that's just life

I can accept that and I'm in the business, so why can't you?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> my point is that I have been playing professionally for nearly 40 years and I was starting to get the idea that you really don't understand how the music business works, so I wanted to know if you were a working musician, or if you were a civilian
> 
> if you have never worked in this field, and yet you insist on telling me about how the music business works, then that would be sorta nutty, wouldn't it?
> 
> ...


The article by Sarah Kirkland Snider makes it clear that her gender has negatively affected how her compositions are viewed. The article by Doug Shadle outlines how a supposedly progressive world like classical music can still be biased against diversity. The life experiences of Sara Davis Buechner are, as Becca put it, "a particularly blunt case of discrimination". I'm happy to believe you when you say you've never encountered discrimination against others, but why don't you seem to want to believe these accounts? Or even engage with them at all?


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

Nereffid said:


> The article by Sarah Kirkland Snider makes it clear that her gender has negatively affected how her compositions are viewed. The article by Doug Shadle outlines how a supposedly progressive world like classical music can still be biased against diversity. The life experiences of Sara Davis Buechner are, as Becca put it, "a particularly blunt case of discrimination". I'm happy to believe you when you say you've never encountered discrimination against others, but why don't you seem to want to believe these accounts? Or even engage with them at all?


simple...I talk about what I know about

I'm talking real experience over a lifetime spent among professional musicians and you are talking about reading some articles

so to me, first hand experience gained by actually getting out there and doing something trumps internet search results all day long


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

A forum discussion of what's proposed to be a societal-level issue can't really be based around just one participant's experiences, though, can it?
Obviously _for you_ your experiences will trump others', but bear in mind that in the context of this discussion, me reading an article by Snider or Shadle is, _for me_, on the same level as me reading your comments. Both you and they are equally real (or not-real) _to me_, so I have no particular reason to believe your account but not theirs. 
You can persuade me that you've never encountered discrimination against others in your career as a working musician, but Snider and Shadle can persuade me that female and minority composers _have_ encountered discrimination. Because they're talking about composers, they're not talking about the same thing as you. So it's possible that both you and they are right. By only talking about what we've directly experienced ourselves, we're denying the possibility that other experiences might differ from ours.
So in order to have an actual discussion about the larger issue, I need you to engage with _them_. Or at least not just extrapolate from your own experience to negate theirs.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

well, I'm not saying my experiences are the only experiences that matter, but when someone spends their life doing something, its gets really aggravating when people who really never even tried start telling them what for. to your credit, at least you didn't cite Wikipedia. I probably would have lost my mind 

its just that you really don't know have any first hand experience trying to get work in this business. No offense, but you just haven't ever dealt with the obstacles that all musicians face, so when you try and tell me about obstacles, I'm over here just laughing my head off. 

we are living in one of the toughest times to be a musician and make a living. So complaining about not getting the level of success you wanted out of the music industry is just being a cry baby about it. That's why its hard for me to embrace your position.


so instead of focusing on opportunity for women, we need more opportunity for EVERYBODY and then more women will get their chance


I mean, I'm doing my part...my duet partner is a woman and she's a really flipping good player, too. Absolutely one of the best musicians I ever played with.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

It's like my post was entirely blank or something.

Anyway, although I've posted a lot here already, this just showed up in my Twitter feed, so here's Steven Banks:



> Even though I didn't realize it at the time, I spent much of my early musical life trying to fit into a world that I didn't believe I would ever authentically belong in as an African American man - the world of classical music. Outwardly, I told myself that if I worked hard enough, and practiced hard enough, the industry would let me in. But, in reality, I lived with the fear that I would never experience the acceptance I desired and often considered giving up on my dream of being a successful performer and pedagogue in the classical music world.
> 
> Joseph Bologne, Florence Price, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, and George Walker were not names that I became familiar with until very late in my musical education. Until halfway through graduate school, I thought that my mere presence in the conservatory environment was an anomaly. I often lived with the pressure of being "the only one" in the classroom and performance space. So much so, that I didn't even know to ask myself, "where are the people who look like me?" School should be a place to make mistakes, learn, and master material that is accurate, all-encompassing, and unbiased - not an isolating environment for those with non-white backgrounds.
> 
> In December 2016, I was introduced to the music and life of Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges, and my life was forever changed. As I listened to the overture of his L'amant Anonyme, I quietly wept as I felt an incredible weight lift off of my shoulders. A weight that I finally realized I didn't carry alone.


And for what it's worth, here he is with a short talk on "Equity in classical music":


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

oh, well that's completely different

you're right...classical music is a snake pit of racism and sexism

so what's the solution? do we cry about it on social media until all the evil white men are shamed and commit suicide?

or maybe we could try and find more venues for performers and generate more revenue streams so that musicians could earn a decent living again

I'm saying that if you want more opportunities for women, then there needs to be more opportunities for everybody


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Nate Miller said:


> oh, well that's completely different
> 
> you're right...classical music is a snake pit of racism and sexism
> 
> so what's the solution? do we cry about it on social media until all the evil white men are shamed and commit suicide?


That's quite the hot take on what Banks said. Impressive that you watched the 14-minute video _and_ wrote your reply within 11 minutes of my posting it! Thanks for the mental stimulation arising from the discussion but I can't take any more. :tiphat:


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

well, when things don't go your way its probably best to just quit 

I'll have to get back to oppressing everyone who has any dreams of being a musician. Its my turn to man the "men only" desk at the union hall this afternoon


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## zelenka (Feb 8, 2018)

there is no such thing as equality in arts or science


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2018)

zelenka said:


> there is no such thing as equality in arts or science


Yes, I guess that's why this thread was started: to consider the inequalities, the reasons for them and how they might be addressed.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

There is no such thing as equality in life, I'm sorry to say. If there was I would be a professional musician and fulfil my teenage dreams of being a concert pianist and conductor. Sadly I have never been able to because of inequality - as when the musical gifts were handed out I missed out, while those wretched Barenboim's and Ashkenazy's got the pickings! 

In a quote attributed to Bill Gates: "Life isn't fair - get over it!"


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If you want to start a thread about how unfair it is that not everyone has equal musical talents (or any other talents), go ahead, but that is not what this thread is about, as some have tried to point out a number of times. We are dealing with the question about equally talented individuals not being given equal opportunities. And before anyone chimes in yet again about not having had experience of that happening, let me say that (a) I have direct knowledge of it happening and (b) my personal experience is that a woman can experience blatant discrimination even while a man is present and is blithely unaware of it happening.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Becca said:


> And before anyone chimes in yet again about not having had experience of that happening, let me say that (a) I have direct knowledge of it happening and (b) my personal experience is that a woman can experience blatant discrimination even while a man is present and is blithely unaware of it happening.


I've seen it too, once at least in a very serious circumstance. And I'm a male!

I have no doubt that the guy, chosen for a plum job over an equally- (or better-) qualified woman, might innocently say, "Well, they simply chose the best man" without ever hearing the words that just came out of his mouth.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Nereffid said:


> Just to point out, that 15% comes from a survey of the 2014-15 US orchestral season and is based on a survey of the 22 largest orchestras.


You can get the 2016-2017 season analysis, based on the programs of 85 US orchestras, here:

https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/the-data-behind-the-2016-2017-orchestra-season/


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

DavidA said:


> There is no such thing as equality in life, I'm sorry to say. If there was I would be a professional musician and fulfil my teenage dreams of being a concert pianist and conductor. Sadly I have never been able to because of inequality - as when the musical gifts were handed out I missed out, while those wretched Barenboim's and Ashkenazy's got the pickings!
> 
> In a quote attributed to Bill Gates: "Life isn't fair - get over it!"


Ah, the great Bill Gates. Are you suggesting he has some wisdom to share with us on this issue? I think most here have already observed that "life is unfair" (life is a complete con, actually, but don't get me started), but do you seriously think we should all just give up trying to make it less "unfair" - at least, selfishly for ourselves, even if we don't care about our fellow humans?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

Nereffid said:


> The biology may still be there but the need to "obey" it is fading.


Is it though? Am I male who has just managed, somehow, to repress biological imperatives (you'll have to trust me on this ) or is the force weak in me in the first place? Have I been brought up differently, so that significant environmental factors have come into play, or were they irrelevant to my psychological make up?



KenOC said:


> It seems certain that there are major inborn psychological differences between males and females that are observable almost from birth, at least statistically.


I thought I knew what you meant, until the last three words. Setting those aside for a minute, if one of those differences is a greater tendency in the male to aggressive behaviour, society has to tackle it somehow - it can't just shrug its shoulders and say "What can you do, it's just biology?"

Now, taking up those words again - what do you mean by them? What statistics and what do they show?

And one more thing - I can't find a post to cite at the moment, but there have been some - I'm not convinced by the idea of "role models" as playing a significant part in one's life choices. It may be that white middle class males in comfortable western civilised countries don't need them, because they're everywhere. On the other hand, it may be that there is a human tendency to shy away from taking personal responsibility for our actions - both the positive and the negative - and to be able to point to those we can blame and those we can lionise is easier than the truth. The media is particularly fond of this, asking the famous who their heroes were and the notorious who they blame for the way they are. Consequently, the absence of role models is taken to be a substantial factor in why females, blacks, the working class...etc...struggle to become somebody. It just seems far too simplistic an analysis. For example, do the children of divorced parents _inevitably _make a mess of marriage themselves because they had no appropriate role model? Plainly not, whatever the statistics might say.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> ...if one of those differences is a greater tendency in the male to aggressive behaviour, society has to tackle it somehow - it can't just shrug its shoulders and say "What can you do, it's just biology?"


Why? Do you really think we're wise enough to re-engineer the biological consequences of millions of years of evolution? Maybe you are, but I'm less confident.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Is it though? Am I male who has just managed, somehow, to repress biological imperatives (you'll have to trust me on this ) or is the force weak in me in the first place? Have I been brought up differently, so that significant environmental factors have come into play, or were they irrelevant to my psychological make up?


This is bet-hedging on my part! If someone insists on biology, I'll respond with "well, yes, but culture", and if someone insists on culture, I'll say "well, yes, but biology". Because we can't answer the question with scientific fact alone, I won't commit to one side, so in future you should interpret any of my comments on this issue as a well-meaning fudge. 



MacLeod said:


> And one more thing - I can't find a post to cite at the moment, but there have been some - I'm not convinced by the idea of "role models" as playing a significant part in one's life choices. It may be that white middle class males in comfortable western civilised countries don't need them, because they're everywhere. On the other hand, it may be that there is a human tendency to shy away from taking personal responsibility for our actions - both the positive and the negative - and to be able to point to those we can blame and those we can lionise is easier than the truth. The media is particularly fond of this, asking the famous who their heroes were and the notorious who they blame for the way they are. Consequently, the absence of role models is taken to be a substantial factor in why females, blacks, the working class...etc...struggle to become somebody. It just seems far too simplistic an analysis. For example, do the children of divorced parents _inevitably _make a mess of marriage themselves because they had no appropriate role model? Plainly not, whatever the statistics might say.


I'm pretty sure I've used the term "role model", but it's a poor term if the above is what you get out of it. It's not so much having role models in the sense of people to look up to, and more about simply knowing that other people like you have done this before. If you're the only woman or the only person of colour in your peer group then you may need an extra confidence to convince yourself that you belong. You need those prior examples to tell you "yes, you can".


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Why? Do you really think we're wise enough to re-engineer the biological consequences of millions of years of evolution? Maybe you are, but I'm less confident.


Why? Not because we can, but because we must. I'm not confident either, but the kind of imperative that says war-war is better than jaw-jaw needs to be challenged if only for the survival of the species.



Nereffid said:


> If you're the only woman or the only person of colour in your peer group then you may need an extra confidence to convince yourself that you belong. You need those prior examples to tell you "yes, you can".


Well as has so often been observed, it's difficult to put yourself in the shoes of those who report that they need such a peer. I think I can claim to be sufficiently empathetic to recognise this need, but as the first person in my family to go to college at 18 and come out with a degree at 21 (and I have three older siblings) I don't think I had any leg up from anyone - it was my own resources (aside from what support I got from my general family background) that got me where I am today. Of course, I'm white and male (though my college was 7:1 female to male) and there were only a small number of black students (overseas from Sierra Leone for example) so my supreme confidence didn't face the kinds of battering that others might have to endure.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The 'role model' issue is probably valid in many cases by showing someone that a given path is indeed a possibility (e.g. the story I mentioned earlier ... "Mommy, I didn't know that women could be conductors.") and to that end is valuable BUT someone has to be the first without having a role model. In that case it is the strong-willed, those willing to defy convention, who open up the options. Of course that opens up a new can-of-worms, i.e. are those strong-willed types the ones who will really make their long term mark, or is it the ones who come afterwards, who can focus on doing rather than fighting to get started.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2018)

Hot off the press:

"Proms among music festivals pledging 50/50 gender split in lineups"

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/feb/26/proms-music-festivals-gender-pledge


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