# The First Symphony (and The First Blog)



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I'm interested in being supportive, but I won't be commenting or offering criticism, even constructive criticism. I have written numerous compositions including an orchestral piece the length of a short symphony. I might ask a few questions concerning what you say about the piece, rather than the piece itself.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Roger Knox said:


> I'm interested in being supportive, but I won't be commenting or offering criticism, even constructive criticism. I have written numerous compositions including an orchestral piece the length of a short symphony. I might ask a few questions concerning what you say about the piece, rather than the piece itself.


Thanks! I will not let people hear a work in process anyway! So no need for criticism. There is plenty of time for that when the work is ready and published.


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

GO FOR IT!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

It'll be interesting to hear the result Waehen. I've written 2 myself (and contemplating a 3rd) and I know two members here on TC who have composed 11 and at least 6 symphonies repsectively. One challenge will be to make the work sound cohesive and inevitable. Will it be for orchestra and if so, how experienced are you in orchestration?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

I've written 14 symphonies to date between 21 and 53 minutes and the first movement of the first, nearly 30 years ago is to be frank, wasn't much more than spontaneous doodling in retrospect with no planning whatsoever. Only with no. 6 did I actually start to use notation software as opposed to playing in the parts with a sequencer (though in the meantime do have basic Dorico notation for all of them).

Obviously, you are taking things much more seriously than I did and I would certainly find it very interesting to learn how you approach your task. it's actually pretty rare that a composer will do this sort of thing so I would greatly welcome the blog.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Waehnen said:


> Thanks, Mikeh! I would love to hear your symphonies.
> 
> Yes, it is for an orchestra. My last teacher was one of the greatest orchestrators in Finland and I did many excercises with him — and I made a tone poem eventually.
> 
> ...


Cool. 
2 harps is definitely the way to go for dense chromaticism. Are you going to use a DAW and samples to render the piece? I don't have Noteperformer, but gather that it is quite good at rendering realistic sounding balance on playback so perhaps that might help you assess balance. Do you write notes and then orchestrate or is the relationship between notes and sound more intricate, intimate and idiomatic? I tend to write _for_ instruments, both solo and in combination with a view to exploiting their capabilities, especially strings. (btw you can hear my 2nd on my website if you wish).

@dko22 that is impressive, why not post something in the composer today section.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> @dko22 that is impressive, why not post something in the composer today section.


I do put a few of my works from time to time online but most people, quite reasonably, don't have time time to listen to long works by someone they don't know anything about but I have had encouraging words from a couple of the living symphonists I most admire. Still, I haven't tried here yet so maybe will give it a bash. Perhaps I could ask you, or other readers of this thread to sample the 11th symphony from this link orchestral works. One reason is that it is the one where NotePerformer works best and it might be a good illustration of what can be done with it as this has cropped up in our discussion. Normally I use other libraries these days which give a more natural orchestral sound (such as the Cinematic Studio in my very different 14th symphony) but NP is known for its analytical clarity which helps to determine orchestral balance quite well.

It didn't take much of your symphony to hear a very experienced and indeed original mind at work. To some extent, it's aesthetically alien -- the influences you list (I did actually think of Tippet at one stage) are very different to mine as a sentimental romantic, nevertheless by the time I got to the slow movement, I was pretty well hooked and this carried on through to the end -- there were just so many interesting things to take in.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

dko22 said:


> I do put a few of my works from time to time online but most people, quite reasonably, don't have time time to listen to long works by someone they don't know anything about but I have had encouraging words from a couple of the living symphonists I most admire. Still, I haven't tried here yet so maybe will give it a bash. Perhaps I could ask you, or other readers of this thread to sample the 11th symphony from this link orchestral works. One reason is that it is the one where NotePerformer works best and it might be a good illustration of what can be done with it as this has cropped up in our discussion. Normally I use other libraries these days which give a more natural orchestral sound (such as the Cinematic Studio in my very different 14th symphony) but NP is known for its analytical clarity which helps to determine orchestral balance quite well.
> 
> It didn't take much of your symphony to hear a very experienced and indeed original mind at work. To some extent, it's aesthetically alien -- the influences you list (I did actually think of Tippet at one stage) are very different to mine as a sentimental romantic, nevertheless by the time I got to the slow movement, I was pretty well hooked and this carried on through to the end -- there were just so many interesting things to take in.


Thanks Dko22, I will listen to your symphony as well, soon!


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

Waehnen said:


> Right now I am at a milestone in finally admitting to myself that at heart I am a composer of western concert art music more than anything else


Good for you for having the perspective and courage to admit that. I am miles away from finding my artistic voice, it is something that constantly troubles me.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

when I was a student, I was discussing music with a friend and declared that I wanted to write a symphony by the age of 35. When I reached that age more than a decade later, I suddenly remember this silly comment. MIDI Technology for recording and playing back music had quite recently become available to the masses so I bought myself an Atari computer, MIDI keyboard, a copy of Cubase light v.1 and set to work playing in my first symphony. I admire the fact that you are taking this more seriously though, was Brahms perhaps just a little too afraid of Beethoven's example -- I will leave this one open?

You are talking about some practical issues like harp writing and you develop and keep some sketches but from what you say so far, I don't know if you have an overall concept of what you want the symphony to be, other than the fact you want to write one. Is there some sort of concrete vision or are you still waiting for the right thing to fall into place as you gradually gather material?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

dko22 said:


> when I was a student, I was discussing music with a friend and declared that I wanted to write a symphony by the age of 35. When I reached that age more than a decade later, I suddenly remember this silly comment. MIDI Technology for recording and playing back music had quite recently become available to the masses so I bought myself an Atari computer, MIDI keyboard, a copy of Cubase light v.1 and set to work playing in my first symphony. I admire the fact that you are taking this more seriously though, was Brahms perhaps just a little too afraid of Beethoven's example -- I will leave this one open?
> 
> You are talking about some practical issues like harp writing and you develop and keep some sketches but from what you say so far, I don't know if you have an overall concept of what you want the symphony to be, other than the fact you want to write one. Is there some sort of concrete vision or are you still waiting for the right thing to fall into place as you gradually gather material?


I have a very detailed and strong vision and am looking forward to sharing those things when I get to the blogging part of this meaningul interaction.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

in that case I am looking forward to hearing more.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

dko22 said:


> I do put a few of my works from time to time online but most people, quite reasonably, don't have time time to listen to long works by someone they don't know anything about but I have had encouraging words from a couple of the living symphonists I most admire. Still, I haven't tried here yet so maybe will give it a bash. Perhaps I could ask you, or other readers of this thread to sample the 11th symphony from this link orchestral works. One reason is that it is the one where NotePerformer works best and it might be a good illustration of what can be done with it as this has cropped up in our discussion. Normally I use other libraries these days which give a more natural orchestral sound (such as the Cinematic Studio in my very different 14th symphony) but NP is known for its analytical clarity which helps to determine orchestral balance quite well.
> 
> It didn't take much of your symphony to hear a very experienced and indeed original mind at work. To some extent, it's aesthetically alien -- the influences you list (I did actually think of Tippet at one stage) are very different to mine as a sentimental romantic, nevertheless by the time I got to the slow movement, I was pretty well hooked and this carried on through to the end -- there were just so many interesting things to take in.


Waehen, please forgive this quick digression from your OP.
@dko22 thanks for your kind words. Regarding your no11, I wasn't sure what to expect given you had alignined your style with sentimental romanticism (I might've been expecting pastiche) but wow, I was hugely impressed with your language and the cohesion of your piece. This music has 20thC sensibilities, powerful and excellent in many places and it flows very nicely with a rigour that brings out the quality of the ideas and their drama via your imagination. You say I have an original mind, well I believe I'm also hearing an original, competent and powerful voice too in this symphony. I will be checking out your other symphonies too.

Anyway, sorry Waehen for continuing to contribute to the digression here and I await news of your progress. Definitely listen to dko22's no11 as it is a great demonstration of NotePerformer's capabilities.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Interesting! It's only really in the past decade or so that I have fully come to understand what an extraordinary work Sibelius 7 is although I first heard it quite early. It seem with you as well that its full significance only later becomes fully apparent.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

so, have you abandoned the idea of a blog or still on holiday (but writing lots of other posts)?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

@Waehnen - google tells me your link is unsafe. Can you post a file to somewhere like WeTransfer?


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> @Waehnen - google tells me your link is unsafe. Can you post a file to somewhere like WeTransfer?


Thanks, Mikeh! I added a WeTransfer link to the blog post. Is it operational?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

yep that's fine...will listen later.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> yep that's fine...will listen later.


I would change some of the notes in the very end now. Too much perfect fifth and kind of a departure from the other harmonies.

Edit: actually I take my words back. Of course when the surface tension of the water has been broken, the perfect fifth opening up to the fresh air and sunlight is appropriate even though it is kind of a shock. Well, surfacing is a shock! Moving from one element to another!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I am only halfway of the second movement and there is already 17 minutes of fully orchestrated music. The first two movements together will be 22 minutes the minimum. As I am aiming at somewhere between 40-50 minutes, I suppose I need to leave some of the material out. If I compose/orchestrate everything that is planned, it will be way over an hour. Which might be too long. Luckily the drama will not suffer too much if I leave one of the sections out completely and kinda meld those "functions" into the finale.

Then again it is a good place to be at when there is enough and even too much material and the inspiration and energy levels are as great as they are.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

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