# The Opera Most Associated With Snobbery (?)



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

_People often ask me to name my favourite opera. It's not a game I relish, because different masterpieces give me such different pleasures, and there are times when Tristan und Isolde, Boris Godunov, Les Troyens, L'incoronazione di Poppea and Don Carlos (among many others) have all lifted me to the heights of aesthetic experience. But, if you put a gun to my head, I suppose I'd put Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande first. I love it so much that I never approach it lightly.

[.....]

What is the nature of the spell which has been cast over me? This is an opera which has never been widely popular, and many sophisticates  -- *W H Auden* and *Bernard Levin* notable among them -- have remained immune to its magic. They find it both musically and theatrically torpid: the pace is slow, they complain, the characters are impenetrable, the symbolism seems pretentious, and there's an absence of obvious lyrical highlights or opportunities for vocal display. But such objections are for me a starting point.

[......]

Opera is too often stuck in the art of the crashingly obvious, painting emotions and situations with a broad brush. Pelléas et Melisande, on the other hand, is endlessly subtle and indeterminate._

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The above is by Rupert Christiansen, chief opera critic of The Daily Telegraph. The whole piece can be read here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/3664829/The-arts-column.html

I've encountered only 1 person (a personal friend and clarinettist) who agrees with Christiansen. Here are her exact words:

_"Not only is Pelleas et Melisande the opera I cherish the most but for me it is quite worthy to stand with the best of Mozart and Wagner. I also think it is incomparably superior to anything by any Italian opera composer"_

(Needless to say I entirely endorse both of their judgments though I imagine most opera lovers would not go so far)

Anyway do you agree with either Rupert Christiansen or my friend? And if not why not?


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Pelléas et Mélisande was written with the intention to be "anti-Tristan und Isolde". The results is pretty impressive, but I won't say it is the opera I chreish the most, or the greatest opera. Tristan is certainly above, and even Les Troyen is grander and "greater" among French operas.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It might have been anti-Tristan but it's definitely the child of Parsifal, which Debussy admired.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

Auden hated Brahms, so his opinion really doesn't matter.

I also think it is incomparably superior to anything by any Italian opera composer"

Pelleas is _*incomparably*_ superior to Turandot?

I know they say that you shouldn't hit girls but .......


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Couchie said:


> It might have been anti-Tristan but it's definitely the child of Parsifal, which Debussy admired.


Indeed Parsifal was the "sourcebook" for the musical style and idiom(s) of Pelleas.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

I'll tell you what, you stick to Pelleas and I'll take Italian opera anytime.....I don't really want indederminate.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

moody said:


> I'll tell you what, you stick to Pelleas and I'll take Italian opera anytime.....I don't really want indederminate.


But don't you also love unique delicate beauty, refinement and immense sophistication?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Xavier said:


> But don't you also love unique delicate beauty, refinement and immense sophistication?


Yes, but the point made that Pelleas is superior to Italian opera was somewhat blunt, was it not? Your friend's statement was sweeping and, I think, unwise.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

It depends on personal taste basically. 

But I think Berg's 'Wozzeck' is just the greatest (for me!) as it brings a lot of these directions (or similar directions) together. You got the more natural speech based aspect of Debussy, but of course laced with an in your face no holds barred & more gritty aesthetic, you maybe got aspects of Puccini's verismo (& Puccini was apparently influenced by 'Wozzeck' when composing 'Turandot,' he wrote to Berg telling him of this), and of course the German tradition, Wagner's leitmotif system embedded in it. And then some, I could go on.

But everyone can think or value what they want. I don't care. Ultimately it boils down to taste, gut feeling and maybe other things like ideology (ugh?!)...


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

*Am I missing something?*

squints:, :blinks:, puts on cool [] corrective lenses, :blinks:, looks again...)

Hi there! Welcome to Talk Classical.:wave: I was wondering when you'd make your way over to us.:tiphat:

Anyway (to return to the topic), I'm unclear as to how _Pelléas et Mélisande_ fanaticism relates to "The Opera Most Associated With Snobbery." Maybe your point is that _Pelléas et Mélisande_ is the subject of unnecessary sneering. If that's your position, I won't disagree. [As a Wagnerian, I know a thing or two about being on the receiving end of unnecessary sneering.] However, you've doubtless had sufficient exposure to opera and opera enthusiasts to recognize that to echo an assertion that it's "incomparably superior to anything by any Italian opera composer" is a decidedly minority opinion. If I can be so bold as to editorialize, I'd further opine that the claim probably does not aid the cause of _Pelléas et Mélisande_ advocacy.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> squints:, :blinks:, puts on cool [] corrective lenses, :blinks:, looks again...)
> 
> Hi there! Welcome to Talk Classical.:wave: I was wondering when you'd make your way over to us.:tiphat:




Uh, come again?

Are we acquainted?


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

The internet is a very, very small place indeed.

*We know (who you are), Xavier.*

For the record, I'm actually quite fond of Pelléas. I think one of the most underrated operas in the repertoire. After all, Parsifal is my favorite opera of all time.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Xavier said:


> _"Not only is Pelleas et Melisande the opera I cherish the most but for me it is quite worthy to stand with the best of Mozart and Wagner. I also think it is incomparably superior to anything by any Italian opera composer"_


George Enescu's OEDIPE is a French-language opera which I cherish more than Debussy's PELLEAS ET MELISANDE, and, as for adapting Mallarmé to music, I think PLI SELON PLI by Pierre Boulez may very well be the definitive work in this regard.

As a lover of 20th Century modernity, I wouldn't want my favorite operas to stand with Mozart or Wagner. 

One may also hope your clarinetist friend has not overlooked operas by two of Italy's _Luigi_s (Dallapiccola and Nono) before proclaiming Debussy's superiority in the genre...


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Maybe I can regard an Opera as "snobbery" when despite trying to push the boundary of how Opera is expressed, it doesn't catch my liking.
For example while I do understand the innovation in Sciarrino's Luci mie traditrici, I simply will always prefer to listen to Orfeo Favola in Musica.



Sid James said:


> It depends on personal taste basically.


That's for sure.



Prodromides said:


> One may also hope your clarinetist friend has not overlooked operas by two of Italy's _Luigi_s (*Dallapiccola* and Nono) before proclaiming Debussy's superiority in the genre...


There is a complete Il Prigioniero on yt.


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## crmoorhead (Apr 6, 2011)

I just recieved the Glyndebourne DVD of this opera. I have seen two other productions, the Boulez and one starring Rodney Gilfrey and Isabel Rey. The adaptation of the opera from a symbolist play makes it stand out among the usually rather silly plots of opera, although Die Tote Stadt has a lot of similar elements. It is a fairy tale with a mystical quality that suits Debussy's music and philosophy perfectly. I don't think that the music is as striking as Italian opera, nor nearly so melodic, but it is still undoubtedly beautiful. 

With regard to it being snobbish, I could understand why it might not have general appeal. It is abstract and usually passionless, somewhat academic and it involves some distasteful scenes of domestic violence and child abuse. I really like strange characters, however, and fantasy, so it appeals to me on those grounds. I appreciate this opera a great deal, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I enjoy it more than Verdi or Mozart. The music is just better in the latter.


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