# Question on writing accompaniment



## Piwikiwi

Hi! I come from a jazz background and I have just started to compose classical music. I bought a bunch of theory/orchestration books and I want to get into writing but I run into a problem.

I can write a melody, counterpoint and a melody with chords/alberti(ish) bass; but the thing that is a bit frustrating right now is that I can't seem to write a more interesting accompaniment than those things. 

I want to combine counterpoint and chords in a way that is less stiff then pure chords or pure counterpoint. I have no idea how to start improving on this aspect of my writing and that is quite frustrating.

Do you guys have any advice for me regarding this?


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## Vasks

Go to IMSLP; study the accompaniments to songs by late 19th century and early 20th century composers. You'll see many ways to give your chords motion

http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Composers


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## Torkelburger

For the piano or for an orchestra/ensemble?


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## Piwikiwi

Torkelburger said:


> For the piano or for an orchestra/ensemble?


Piano at first but I also want to write chamber/orchestral music.


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## PetrB

Piwikiwi said:


> Hi! I come from a jazz background and I have just started to compose classical music. I bought a bunch of theory/orchestration books and I want to get into writing but I run into a problem.
> 
> I can write a melody, counterpoint and a melody with chords/alberti(ish) bass; but the thing that is a bit frustrating right now is that I can't seem to write a more interesting accompaniment than those things.
> 
> I want to combine counterpoint and chords in a way that is less stiff then pure chords or pure counterpoint. I have no idea how to start improving on this aspect of my writing and that is quite frustrating.
> 
> Do you guys have any advice for me regarding this?


There is no quick fix, but I'll make the calculated guess that you are still thinking in musical terms of chords and melody. That is no criticism whatsoever, but one end result goal of counterpoint is to think of your harmony more as 'somewhat independent voices,' and moreover, that chords and melody (or the instrumental solo part) is not merely a stand-out line with support, but the entirety is 'a musical fabric.'

The advice to look at all sorts of accompaniments, single line singer, instrumental, is very sound. Starting with the Beethoven violin and piano, or the cello and piano sonatas, you can see / hear that both parts are an integral part of the overall musical fabric, and that one without the other as its context removes most 'sense' from the whole.

It may be too, that you are limited by what piano technique you have, and you then habitually turn to those configurations you can most readily render -- even if writing at a desk -- since those are in the forefront of your imagination. Toward changing that, and your thinking, read through or play through those accompaniments you are studying as best you can, maybe with a titch of that goal expanding your playing technique but primarily in order to 'change your mind' -- and your ear, so that what you conceive of after that will have more variety than the limitations you find so frustrating at the moment.

Mahler's songs are a good survey, almost all written first for piano and voice and later orchestrated, since they are not at all 'typical piano configuration.' The _Melodies_ of Ravel, Poulenc, Debussy can also tell you a great deal, while some of those adhere to a very simple near repetitive configuration in the piano, others very much have 'flights of fancy' which go to completely different types of accompaniment.

My most urgent advice would be to try to think -- whatever the piece is -- of an overall musical fabric, and that will come through the cumulative result of your thinking / experience being expanded (altered from where it now is) of all the counterpoint, harmony study. Of course, like a power drill which will not do the job all by itself, you must apply a bit of pressure 

I've found that writing for a 'baritone' instrument, whether baritone voice, 'cello, etc. and piano somewhat forces the situation, the tessitura (range) of those as soloist makes the challenge, and need, of no longer 'setting the soloist on top' in the overall configuration, the accompaniment being both above, below, with the soloist more in the middle -- a fabric, as I put it, more than a line sitting atop a supporting or ornamental bed.


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## Torkelburger

Piwikiwi said:


> Piano at first but I also want to write chamber/orchestral music.


I think that it is good plan. There are some very basic, remedial, piano accompaniments you can learn in order to get your imagination going:

1. the oom-pah: in 4/4 the root and fifth on beats 1 and 3, the chord on beats 2 and 4.

2. the oom-pah-pah: in 3/4 standard waltz accompaniment

3. other arpeggic accompaniments similar to alberti bass but in different order such as 1-3-5-(1 at the octave), or 1-5-3-(1 at the octave), or 1-3-5-1, or countless others.

4. other arpeggic accompaniments but with very wide leaps (displacing the chord tones above an octave, for example, instead of going 1 to 3, going 1 to the 10th).

5. Repeated chords, such as repeated quarter, eighths, or sixteenths for rhythmic interest (or repeated triplets in 4/4).

6. "silence" on the downbeat. (rest) dat dat dat, (rest) dat dat dat, etc.

7. same as #6 but in 3/4

8. same as #1 but just with the "pahs". (rest) pah (rest) pah, etc....

9. a "false waltz" which is like the oom-pah-pah but in 4/4 with a pickup everytime. (fifth(pickup) root(downbeat) pah pah) repeats....

10. Reiterated single tones (common tones) instead of full harmonies.

A few things to keep in mind when trying to come up with more variety is that you have a lot of options with rythym. For example, keep in mind that a quarter note is *interchangeable* with two eighths, or a dotted eighth and a sixteenth, or three triplets, on and on, etc....so you have *countless* variations at your disposal with the above examples. And keep in mind too, that the chords above don't have to be stagnant and always stay in the same position. The ooms and the pahs can be in different octaves or inversions when they occur. Also, don't fall into the trap amateurs make of *constantly composing utilizing TWO PART WRITING for the piano*. This doesn't just mean two voices, but rather the left hand and right hand are only assigned one duty/texture at a time, making for "two parts". Doing that ad nauseum is a mistake. You can actually assign each hand multiple duties at the same time (many of us trained composers paid A LOT of money to learn that). It is difficult and requires a lot of study but you should be able to teach yourself if you look at A LOT of scores. For example, you might be able to get a texture where the right hand is playing a melody on the downbeat of every bar, but assisting the left hand in the accompanying chords up the keyboard the rest of the bar in octaves in dotted rythyms. There are endless possibilities.


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## Piwikiwi

PetrB said:


> There is no quick fix, but I'll make the calculated guess that you are still thinking in musical terms of chords and melody. That is no criticism whatsoever, but one end result goal of counterpoint is to think of your harmony more as 'somewhat independent voices,' and moreover, that chords and melody (or the instrumental solo part) is not merely a stand-out line with support, but the entirety is 'a musical fabric.'


That is exactly the reason why I posted this. I'm able to write free counterpoint and just homophonic music but I want accompaniment to be interesting but subordination(I don't know if this is correct English it is a direct translation).



> The advice to look at all sorts of accompaniments, single line singer, instrumental, is very sound. Starting with the Beethoven violin and piano, or the cello and piano sonatas, you can see / hear that both parts are an integral part of the overall musical fabric, and that one without the other as its context removes most 'sense' from the whole.


Thank you, I'll look into those pieces.



> It may be too, that you are limited by what piano technique you have, and you then habitually turn to those configurations you can most readily render -- even if writing at a desk -- since those are in the forefront of your imagination. Toward changing that, and your thinking, read through or play through those accompaniments you are studying as best you can, maybe with a titch of that goal expanding your playing technique but primarily in order to 'change your mind' -- and your ear, so that what you conceive of after that will have more variety than the limitations you find so frustrating at the moment.


My piano technique is quite limited. The most technically challenging I can play is Ravel's Minuet from Le Tombeau de Couperin and took me 4 months to learn. Is it also useful to try and play parts of the pieces I'm studying even when they are too hard to play at the tempo they are supposed to be played?



> Mahler's songs are a good survey, almost all written first for piano and voice and later orchestrated, since they are not at all 'typical piano configuration.' The _Melodies_ of Ravel, Poulenc, Debussy can also tell you a great deal, while some of those adhere to a very simple near repetitive configuration in the piano, others very much have 'flights of fancy' which go to completely different types of accompaniment.


I'll check those out as well!



> My most urgent advice would be to try to think -- whatever the piece is -- of an overall musical fabric, and that will come through the cumulative result of your thinking / experience being expanded (altered from where it now is) of all the counterpoint, harmony study. Of course, like a power drill which will not do the job all by itself, you must apply a bit of pressure
> 
> I've found that writing for a 'baritone' instrument, whether baritone voice, 'cello, etc. and piano somewhat forces the situation, the tessitura (range) of those as soloist makes the challenge, and need, of no longer 'setting the soloist on top' in the overall configuration, the accompaniment being both above, below, with the soloist more in the middle -- a fabric, as I put it, more than a line sitting atop a supporting or ornamental bed.


I really appreciate your advice and I'll try and put it into practice!


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## Piwikiwi

Torkelburger said:


> A few things to keep in mind when trying to come up with more variety is that you have a lot of options with rythym. For example, keep in mind that a quarter note is *interchangeable* with two eighths, or a dotted eighth and a sixteenth, or three triplets, on and on, etc....so you have *countless* variations at your disposal with the above examples. And keep in mind too, that the chords above don't have to be stagnant and always stay in the same position. The ooms and the pahs can be in different octaves or inversions when they occur. Also, don't fall into the trap amateurs make of *constantly composing utilizing TWO PART WRITING for the piano*. This doesn't just mean two voices, but rather the left hand and right hand are only assigned one duty/texture at a time, making for "two parts". Doing that ad nauseum is a mistake. You can actually assign each hand multiple duties at the same time (many of us trained composers paid A LOT of money to learn that). It is difficult and requires a lot of study but you should be able to teach yourself if you look at A LOT of scores. For example, you might be able to get a texture where the right hand is playing a melody on the downbeat of every bar, but assisting the left hand in the accompanying chords up the keyboard the rest of the bar in octaves in dotted rythyms. There are endless possibilities.


Thank you for your advice! Like I said to PetrB, I play piano myself and I can play Ravel's Minuet from Le Tombeau de Couperin and I'm currently studying Il Vecchio Castello from Pictures at an Exhibition, so I'm quite familiar with having multiple voices in a piece. I found it impossibly hard to apply it to my own music. You gave me a lot of practical examples to work with and I hope I can put it into practice!


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## PetrB

Piwikiwi said:


> My piano technique is quite limited. The most technically challenging I can play is Ravel's Minuet from Le Tombeau de Couperin and took me 4 months to learn. Is it also useful to try and play parts of the pieces I'm studying even when they are too hard to play at the tempo they are supposed to be played?


But of course. Even slow, and not with a goal of performance or getting up to at all the correct tempi, the 'attempt' at playing these accompaniments is an immediate contact with the sound, whatever the configuration is, and to use an adage, "_Piano lessons are also music lessons_." The very fact you may labor more than a little to 'get your hands on it' and the slowing down is a kind of direct immersion that merely looking at a score is not.

The slowed time it will take you also allows for a more effective amount of time spent with what you are looking at / hearing, and I think it would benefit you enormously, 'informing' you as well as firing your imagination in other directions than the (now) reflexive habits you have of going to those figures which are comfortable for you to play. (I would almost bet you ten dollars those are in a very limited range for each hand, i.e. within not much more than an octave.)

I would almost be willing to bet that same ten dollars that half your problem is your imagination immediately going to those configurations first. Without a direct hands-on experience of something else, it is I'm sure more difficult to move away from them, and toward something else.

Ergo: stumble through as you might and can, and check out the accompaniments / parts for instrumental sonatas with piano, have a look at say, the Mozart and Brahms Clarinet quintets, Schubert songs, Schumann and Brahms, Debussy (songs and the 'cello sonata), whatever appeals, any of them will show you one of many other ways to go about it.*

I wouldn't expect you would 'get them down and in your hands' as an advanced pianist, but the hands on is immediately connected with what you hear, and including a greater awareness of whatever configurations are in the scores. That is bound to open your eyes and ears and drop a lot of other tools and tricks into your imagination.

_* "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."_


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## Piwikiwi

A quick follow-up question: How good should may four part writing/counterpoint writing be before I start?


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## Mahlerian

Piwikiwi said:


> A quick follow-up question: How good should may four part writing/counterpoint writing be before I start?


These are skills that should be worked on together; your skill in counterpoint and part writing should be used in balancing and writing accompaniment as well. The best accompaniments compliment the melody in a pseudo-contrapuntal way.


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## Piwikiwi

Mahlerian said:


> These are skills that should be worked on together; your skill in counterpoint and part writing should be used in balancing and writing accompaniment as well. The best accompaniments compliment the melody in a pseudo-contrapuntal way.


Okay one more question: Do you recommend starting with writing in a more romantic/baroque/classical way a bit before moving to early 20th century and contemporary music?


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## Mahlerian

Piwikiwi said:


> Okay one more question: Do you recommend starting with writing in a more romantic/baroque/classical way a bit before moving to early 20th century and contemporary music?


Knowing traditional part writing/voice leading will give you a better perspective on what people accept as "normal" in a classical style, so you'll understand how contemporary writing is similar and how it's different.

Certain 20th century styles (Xenakis, musique concrete, some electronic music) are only adjacently related to traditional methods, though of course one can still learn a good deal about the workings of form and so forth to apply to them. Others (Schoenberg, Babbitt, Rihm) will require thorough assimilation of traditional techniques in order to emulate properly. I would place the Debussy and post-Debussy style (Boulez, Messiaen, Takemitsu) in-between the two.

The gist of it is that it's an advantage to learn a bit about all styles, no matter what you want to do.


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## Richannes Wrahms

This if from Schoenberg's Fundamentals of Musical Composition.


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