# Your opinion on 'sexing-up' the image of classical musicians?



## eugeneonagain

A couple of years ago the violinist Lara St. John appeared on the cover of her album of Bach's solo violin works in a provocative pose (see photo below). The majority opinion, among the 1-3% who listen to classical music or the music media, was that it was another sign of creeping marketing practices based upon sex-appeal.

Possibly this affects women more, but it is the marketing methodology used for quite a lot of both male and female young classical musicians. I think we all know which classical musicians have the biggest general presence on You Tube - in terms of views and commentary, positive and negative. The plan seems to be that it sells classical music to a new, young audience using one of the supposed tried and tested methods of piquing interest.

I'm less convinced: why wouldn't it just attract, say, dirty old men? There seems to be an assumption that if the eye candy is good enough the people drawn to that will be there long enough to be immediately struck by the excellence of the music and will join the classical music audience of the future.
It's a bit of a theory. I'm not sure how many of the people watching those You Tube videos are already classical listeners (contrary to mythology it's not all over-60s). So it may not be getting a new audience by 'cornering a new market'.

Stars with personality is not a new phenomenon, but how many of the stars of yesteryear achieved it by stripping off for Playboy or an album cover?


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## senza sordino

That album is her debut album from 1996, 22 years ago. It sold very well by classical music standards. The rationale is that this music is for unaccompanied violin, bare music so to speak. That being said, it's a ridiculous album cover. The album cover put me off buying the album, it didn't attract me to buying it.


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## Bulldog

I'm all for the sexing-up of images as long as only adults are the subject.


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## Guest

I think it's disgusting and panders to the lowest common denominator.


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## Bulldog

Kontrapunctus said:


> I think it's disgusting and panders to the lowest common denominator.


It's those lowest common denominators that make life interesting.


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## KenOC

I don't care for that Lara St. John cover at all. Yuja Wang does it so much better!


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## EdwardBast

eugeneonagain said:


> Stars with personality is not a new phenomenon, but how many of the stars of yesteryear achieved it by stripping off for Playboy or an album cover?
> 
> View attachment 100561


What a bunch of dirty minded people, starting with you Eugene!  Why do you assume there is more skin behind that violin or out of frame below instead of a frumpy strapless brassiere and granny panties?

Is she any good? On the violin I mean?


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## norman bates

the idea should be explored further. For instance, someone could record classical performers playing while having sex. Now that would be interesting. Unfortunately that's technically very demanding. Just imagine how difficult would be a prestissimo.


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## Bulldog

EdwardBast said:


> Is she any good? On the violin I mean?


She is an excellent violinist.


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## eugeneonagain

Okay, I know there's fun to be had in this, but there is a serious point. Does a person spend half their life, or in some cases most of their lives, training to perfect their performance skills only to be told that if they want to get noticed among a sea of other musicians they have to pout to the camera and wear a low-cut dress?

I know some will be of the tired opinion that the performer plays a part, desiring fame... but to be told as a young performer that it's lacy dresses or failure, some less-than-reasoned decisions are going to be made. A woman like Cellist Sol Gabetta has gone another route, creating her own 'Solsberg Festival' where she can concentrate on the music. People come to her for requests to record.

How much does it have to be about image? I expect this in some popular music where half (or more) of the product is image, but this shouldn't be the case for art music performances. I think of Sviatoslav Richter and the way he darkened his performances to make people focus on the music. That might be a bit much for today's image-addicted audiences, but I think if the music and the performance of it isn't drawing the listeners, trying to sex it up will just draw people who want to see that, not hear the music. It's a slice of false logic used too often...like the idea that Baz Luhrman's Romeo & Juliet would turn all the youth on to Shakespeare; they just wanted to see Di Caprio and Clare Danes at it.


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## Alfacharger

I think the Lara St. John cover was only spoof on the old Westminster Gold Album covers!


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## eugeneonagain

Very nice, I didn't know about those.

I suppose the marketers of classical music must think only men listen to art-music? Who knows maybe that 2% _are_ mostly men (I doubt it). The thing is, even the Westminster Gold covers seem also to have failed to bring the crowds of new listeners thronging.


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## Bulldog

eugeneonagain said:


> How much does it have to be about image? I expect this in some popular music where half (or more) of the product is image, but this shouldn't be the case for art music performances.


Sexual matters permeate all facets of society, and that includes classical music.


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## eugeneonagain

Bulldog said:


> Sexual matters permeate all facets of society, and that includes classical music.


I'm certain you said that without thinking. In what ways do 'sexual matters' permeate the performance of classical music?


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## KenOC

Sex, being the primary activity of the human race, permeates all music. Classical music tries to pretend that, unlike other branches of music, it doesn't matter. This pretense is unsuccessful.


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## Phil loves classical

I think Eugene has a good point. While one way of looking at it is to let the free markets dictate how to release the albums to generate the most interest, as snobby as it sounds I think Classical ‘should’ be above that. We see enough of that with popular music which is probably more than 80% image, with not just using sex appeal, but even as artists use the unkempt look to appear as serious musicians. By enforcing certain standards, then less attractive, but more gifted performers will have the advantage.


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## eugeneonagain

KenOC said:


> Sex, being the primary activity of the human race, permeates all music. Classical music tries to pretend that, unlike other branches of music, it doesn't matter. This pretense is unsuccessful.


Oh Ken...Kenneth! I expected this. Since we crawled from the black ooze many things have happened in the building of civilisation. Things that likely wouldn't have been achieved if we were going about humping everything all the time. There may well be sexual undertones in classical music and certainly behind the creation of some of it.

Does that mean the performers have to simultaneously engage in an orgy while performing for it to be "authentic" and not pretending?


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## mbhaub

Actually, the Westminster Gold covers did get a lot of us in the 70s to try music we hadn't heard. For horny kids in that era, the WG cover of The Planets was just provocative and titillating - hey, classical music can be fun! Those covers drew the attention of potential buyer more than the dull cover art on Vox, Seraphim, Odyssey and other budget labels. And some of the WG performances were first-class as it turns out (too bad their pressings were pretty dreadful).


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## KenOC

eugeneonagain said:


> Things that likely wouldn't have been achieved if we were going about humping everything all the time.


I'm sure that the people who built the Acropolis weren't humping all the time. I'm also reasonably sure that, as they chiseled those great boring stones, they were thinking about it. A lot. :lol:


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## eugeneonagain

KenOC said:


> I'm sure that the people who built the Acropolis weren't humping all the time. I'm also reasonably sure that, as they chiseled those great boring stones, they were thinking about it. A lot. :lol:


That's probably true. I'm glad they stayed focused though.


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## Phil loves classical

I think a way to look at this is how would the composers have liked their music to be marketed? Would Bach have wanted his music be marketted by a picture of a supposedly naked girl behind a violin? Though their music is public domain, I think it is somewhat disrespectful to the composers with certain marketting tricks.


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## Bulldog

Some of you apparently want the world of classical music to be above sexual matters; I think that's unrealistic.


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## Becca

You might all want to remember that this sexual marketing focus is targeted at men and that there is another 50% of the population, most of whom find it irrelevant, and many are turned off by it, which isn't exactly smart marketing.

Just a thought ... as many orchestras now have audition candidates perform behind a screen in order to avoid biases, perhaps it is time that many soloists perform behind a screen  (Unless, of course, it is Stefan Dohr :kiss


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## Larkenfield

Setting aside sexy or questionable album covers for a moment, _sex_ can be implied or overtly found in the music if one isn't a prude. Here are a few examples where the music has been interpreted that way, probably because it's in the score:

Ask Clara Schumann about _Tristan and Isolde_, who described Wagner's opera as "the most disgusting thing I have ever seen or heard in my life.... To be forced to see and hear such crazy lovemaking the whole evening, in which every feeling of decency is violated and by which not only the public but even musicians seem to be enchanted - that is the saddest thing I have ever experienced in my artistic life… During the second act the two of them sleep and sing; through the whole last act - for fully 40 minutes - Tristan dies. And that they call dramatic!!!"

Clara found sex in the music but obviously didn't like how Wagner portrayed it.

There's Offenbach's _Can Can_ with skirts kicked in the air by a lot of saucy women displaying their underwear and sexy legs.

Berg's opera _Lulu_ is packed with love and death, and there's a brothel scene thrown in for good measure... Men and women have been known to do more in brothels than playing _Parcheesi_. 

The 10 Sexiest Moments in Classical Music (that some listeners are welcome to argue about)... https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/the-10-sexiest-moments-in-classical-music/

It might come as a shock that some people have been known to have sex with classical music or opera playing in the background. The music has somehow become associated with the act.

The real problem is that there's probably not _enough_ sex in classical music-the admittance that it exists.  But that naughty word at least makes the music more human than just what often takes place in the dry intellect above the neck.

The 2nd movement of the Charles-Marie Widor Piano Quartet in A Minor, Op. 66 has often been cited as representing romantic, sensual or sexual love-making (and I happen to agree about this lovely piece):






Similar feelings of sensual tenderness that might also be interpreted as a romantic or sexual encounter with a grand climax can be found in the 2nd movement of the Brahms Piano Sonata No. 3, written when he was 20 years old:






These examples are just the tip of the iceberg related to the possibilities of romantic sentiments, passionate intensity, sex and sexuality that permeates some of the music.


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## Becca

Larkenfield said:


> Setting aside sexy or questionable album covers for a moment, _sex_ can be implied or overtly found in the music if one isn't a prude. Here are a few examples where the music has been interpreted that way, probably because it's in the score:
> 
> Ask Clara Schumann about _Tristan and Isolde_, who described Wagner's opera as "the most disgusting thing I have ever seen or heard in my life.... To be forced to see and hear such crazy lovemaking the whole evening, in which every feeling of decency is violated and by which not only the public but even musicians seem to be enchanted - that is the saddest thing I have ever experienced in my artistic life… During the second act the two of them sleep and sing; through the whole last act - for fully 40 minutes - Tristan dies. And that they call dramatic!!!"
> 
> Clara found sex in the music but obviously didn't like how Wagner portrayed it.
> 
> There's Offenbach's _Can Can_ with skirts kicked in the air by a lot of saucy women displaying their underwear and sexy legs.
> 
> Berg's opera _Lulu_ is packed with love and death, and there's a brothel scene thrown in for good measure... Men and women have been known to do more in brothels than playing _Parcheesi_.
> 
> The 10 Sexiest Moments in Classical Music (that some listeners are welcome to argue about)... https://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/features/the-10-sexiest-moments-in-classical-music/
> 
> It might come as a shock that some people have been known to have sex with classical music or opera playing in the background. The music has somehow become associated with the act.
> 
> The real problem is that there's probably not _enough_ sex in classical music-the admittance that it exists.  But that naughty word at least makes the music more human than just what takes place _above_ the neck.
> 
> The 2nd movement of the Charles-Marie Widor Piano Quartet in A Minor, Op. 66 has often been cited as representing romantic, sensual or sexual love-making (and I happen to agree about this lovely piece):


While I would not argue with much of this, what does it have to do with the OP which is about "'sexing-up' the image of classical musicians"?


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## KenOC

From 1936: ‘And all this is coarse, primitive and vulgar. The music quacks, grunts, and growls, and suffocates itself in order to express the love scenes as naturalistically as possible. And "love" is smeared all over the opera in the most vulgar manner. The merchant's double bed occupies the central position on the stage. On this bed all "problems" are solved.’

I wonder what Pravda would have said about those album covers!


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## EdwardBast

eugeneonagain said:


> Okay, I know there's fun to be had in this, but there is a serious point. Does a person spend half their life, or in some cases most of their lives, training to perfect their performance skills only to be told that if they want to get noticed among a sea of other musicians they have to pout to the camera and wear a low-cut dress?


I don't like to judge others' choices in such matters. The only thing that ultimately matters to me is if she comes with the goods after the come on. With the corollary that a bad naked violinist is humiliating himself.


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## Vasks

Alfacharger said:


> I think the Lara St. John cover was only spoof on the old Westminster Gold Album covers!


I have that LP. I pull it out the record cabinet often, but I rarely play it. ;-)


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## 20centrfuge

I enjoy a scantily clad beauty as much as anyone but I feel that while playing up the beauty on an album cover a little bit might be ok, in concert I feel like it isn't ok. It distracts from the music. The blood is rushing to the wrong parts of my body and the pure enjoyment of the music gets tainted.

On an album cover this is as sexy as I think is in good taste:
(A bit too much for a concert IMO)








And in a concert, this is as sexy as is good taste:


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## brianvds

Alfacharger said:


> I think the Lara St. John cover was only spoof on the old Westminster Gold Album covers!


As one might expect from a classical pianist, an absolutely great pair. Of hands, that it is.

It's not clear to me that we need to sink to this level to spruce up the image of classical music:










But it does help if the conductor and/or soloist don't look kind of undead either. Or overweight or whatever. Not that I personally mind at all; I am just talking here about the broader public perception.

Mind you, I don't care much about that either. We tend to be way too desperate not to come across as somehow elitist. Me, I am increasingly of the the opinion that classical listeners damn well ARE a sort of elite, so frickin' there, and those who want to join in can do what every last one of us had to do, namely actually listen and reading up a bit and become musically literate.

I have to say, classical musicians often strike me as looking sort of pasty and unfit and unhealthy. That probably comes from spending hours per day in a practice room without natural light or getting any proper exercise. That can't be too good for their image. It is noteworthy that some of the most popular ones also _looked _better, not necessarily sexy, but just more physically imposing.

Just joking of course. Best way to make classical music look good is to have pianists play in the nude:


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## MarkW

I imagine that album cover might make as many converts to classical music as a book jacket depicting Molly Bloom's soliloquy would generate Joyce converts.


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## KenOC

I'm guessing that chamber music might become more popular with a somewhat different...ah...approach.


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## Marinera

^
Are we to assume this is their professional pride on display? 

Tacky a bit.. or it would be more correctly to say tacky little bits..


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## Samael420

Bulldog said:


> Some of you apparently want the world of classical music to be above sexual matters; I think that's unrealistic.


It's not about touching on the topic of sexuality -- that is a different question -- it is about using sexuality to sell stuff to people.
I, personally, think that it is absurd that this is still happening in our day and age. You see it all the time, scantly clad women on billboards selling you water bottles or phone subscriptions or cars or whatnot. It's ridiculous.


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## Art Rock

A professor of marketing gives her opinion.


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## Guest

I would hope that at least 50% of the population would see such album covers as crude, patronising and sexist. To coin a phrase, I wouldn't give such an album house room.


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## DavidA

KenOC said:


> I'm guessing that chamber music might become more popular with a somewhat different...ah...approach.


Chamber music? That's potty! :lol:


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## David Phillips

A lot of the great musicians of the past - no names, no pack drill - had faces like the backs of busses, so presumably these artists would not today have careers in music because they couldn't be 'promoted'.


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## LezLee

KenOC and some others will remember there was an Amazon forum thread called ‘Hotties in the Classics’. In vain I tried to find some examples of ‘sexed-up’ men. I’m ashamed of all these serious musicians pandering to male fantasies and agreeing to these ridiculous poses. It’s even worse when the ladies aren’t particularly attractive but merely showing off their attributes.


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## eugeneonagain

Art Rock said:


> A professor of marketing gives her opinion.


You posted this in jest surely? It's the worst set of so-called arguments I've read from a so-called "professor". It makes sense of course that it was published in the corporate-lackey Torygraph.

Basically Moss's view is that it is fine and normal to use sex because the _only_ desired result is making a sale. This includes concert tickets where she assumes that people are more likely to want to go and see some eye candy rather than choosing to see a performance because of the work itself and the reputation of the orchestra/soloist. Well, frankly, anyone going chiefly for that reason is a shallow idiot.

The 'article' opens with a criticism of Nicola Benedetti - who, in the Guardian, famously complained about the sexing-up of performers in classical music. Moss repeats the mistake of perceiving her complaint as hypocrisy: a good-looking woman complaining whilst using her looks to gain attention. That's not what Benedetti did. She complained about being coerced into manufacturing an image of 'sexy violinist' by appearing in suggestive photoshoots.

Moss's piece of 'evidence' that betrays her bias (and actually undermines the validity of her marketing worldview) is the Kennedy/Nixon television debates. That because people 'perceived' Kennedy to be the winner based on looks, it shows the importance of visual sex appeal. It certainly does, but it doesn't show it to be a route to wise decision-making. If only the 'most sensationally marketed' things rise to the surface, expect a lot of well-marketed trash to be in there.


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## Blancrocher

On the bright side, with the transition from vinyl to cds to Spotify icons, at least all of these sexist images are getting smaller and smaller. Pretty soon we won't even be able to see them.


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## wkasimer

Becca said:


> You might all want to remember that this sexual marketing focus is targeted at men and that there is another 50% of the population, most of whom find it irrelevant, and many are turned off by it, which isn't exactly smart marketing.


And not just the women. This sort of marketing can backfire with men, too. When I see a scantily clad soprano on an album cover, my first thought is " if that's how she has to dress to sell records, she must not be particularly good at singing".


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## DavidA

eugeneonagain said:


> You posted this in jest surely? It's the worst set of so-called arguments I've read from a so-called "professor". It makes sense of course that it was published in the corporate-lackey Torygraph.
> 
> Basically Moss's view is that it is fine and normal to use sex because the _only_ desired result is making a sale. This includes concert tickets where she assumes that people are more likely to want to go and see some eye candy rather than choosing to see a performance because of the work itself and the reputation of the orchestra/soloist. *Well, frankly, anyone going chiefly for that reason is a shallow idiot.*
> 
> The 'article' opens with a criticism of Nicola Benedetti - who, in the Guardian, famously complained about the sexing-up of performers in classical music. Moss repeats the mistake of perceiving her complaint as hypocrisy: a good-looking woman complaining whilst using her looks to gain attention. That's not what Benedetti did. She complained about being coerced into manufacturing an image of 'sexy violinist' by appearing in suggestive photoshoots.
> 
> Moss's piece of 'evidence' that betrays her bias (and actually undermines the validity of her marketing worldview) is the Kennedy/Nixon television debates. That because people 'perceived' Kennedy to be the winner based on looks, it shows the importance of visual sex appeal. It certainly does, but it doesn't show it to be a route to wise decision-making. If only the 'most sensationally marketed' things rise to the surface, expect a lot of well-marketed trash to be in there.


Sorry mate, but the editor of Gramophone Magazine once told me that sales of the mag increase if there is a good looking woman on the cover


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## elgar's ghost

KenOC said:


> I'm guessing that chamber music might become more popular with a somewhat different...ah...approach.


I'm guessing that those instruments are electric - this produces horrible thoughts of classics being played to a horrible synthipop-dance backbeat a la Bond.


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## DavidA

Of course sex sells in the entertainment business of which classical music is part. Why Yuja Wang wear skirts like this:









Although she is a brilliant pianist as well as a looker


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## Guest

In many covers there is often the emphasis on the performer and not on the composer, which in my view is already a bit crooked, but yes if it is only about sales figures......
In my opinion it is not an expression of good taste to be exploited as a merchandise. There is a form of slavery in which anyone who wants to be successful has to surrender his own dignity.


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## Samael420

I don't think that the things that you've said actually contradict Prof Moss's column.

The main point, as I understood it, is that looks matter and sex sells.
Which is probably true, I do trust a marketing prof on that.

A different question is: should the people stoop to such marketing tricks to sell stuff?
As I've already mentioned, I find those marketing tactics (and the area of "marketing" itself) quite appalling in many ways.



> If only the 'most sensationally marketed' things rise to the surface, expect a lot of well-marketed trash to be in there.


Isn't that pretty much the case, at least in these times of free market capitalism?


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## DeepR

When it comes to classical music I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just take one good look at pop music these days and you'll realize that it's not so bad. I doubt classical music will ever drop to that level just to sell itself. Those few album covers and female pianists with short skirts seem to be an exception. Besides, nothing about that is as superficial as the imagery and videos related to a lot of pop music. Basically, every next pop music video has closeups of half naked girls shaking their booties all the time.


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## Art Rock

The goal of marketing is to maximize sales and profits, not to supply the customer with the best possible product, not to cater to the taste of everyone. As simple as that. There's nothing new to it either. The slightly risque covers of the seventies' Westminster Gold albums have been mentioned, and I recall the flak cellist Ofra Harnoy got around 1990 in CD reviews for her poses on the CD covers (which were really quite harmless).


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## Taplow

DavidA said:


> Of course sex sells in the entertainment business of which classical music is part. Why Yuja Wang wear skirts like this:


Perhaps she wears them because they make _her_ feel good.


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## Blancrocher

Taplow said:


> Perhaps she wears them because they make _her_ feel good.


I doubt the same could be said of her shoes, though.


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## JeffD

Perhaps it is the straight laced 1950s oh so serious non-sensual non-sexual image of classical music that is at least part of the reason it is so unpopular in modern culture.


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## Marinera

I think all these sexed-up covers and image are not only demeaning to musicians and listeners alike, but I believe composers themselves wouldn't have liked this approach of promoting their music.

I remember reading long time ago so maybe I'm mixing some details, that when Gershwin's An American in Paris (perhaps that was another piece) premiered in Europe he decided for some reason not to go explaining his decision that if the piece was any good it will succeed without his presence there.
Selling sex is good enough for Justin Biebers and other singers like him whose music would never have any merit anyway. Imagine, the composers for example Beethoven putting all this effort to create a masterpiece, crafting it perhaps for months or years and then someone says that's not good enough on its own, that this will only attract listeners if there's a semi-dressed or even better nude girl playing it. It's as good as saying that she would sell, not the music and they’ll benefit only because their music will be selling alongside her. I cannot imagine these composers would've thought this acceptable not for those reasons.

On the other hand, everyone tries to get into the heads of composers so to speak when interpreting their music - an emotional message, composers intentions regarding the piece, punctuations in the score, historical instruments used and so on, but disregard the fact that composers probably would've found such cheap means to promote and sell their music to say the least offensive. I believe most of them had huge professional pride as well as egos that would've clashed with this type of selling strategy. Therefore, this is not only the hypocritical but also the inconsistent approach too.

They should direct more efforts to promote classical music to future audience - kids, perhaps special edition cds for children with interesting covers - would do more good.


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## starthrower

What? No sexy James Levine photos?


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## Robert Gamble

So I have the Lara St. John CD that started this thread. I picked it up after reading a review which said it was one of the "don't miss" CDs for the works in question. 

I actually hesitated when I saw the cover, but since I put all my CDs in big cases and then after reading the liner notes, put the jewel cases in storage, it didn't really mean all that much to me.


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## Guest

JeffD said:


> Perhaps it is the straight laced 1950s oh so serious non-sensual non-sexual image of classical music that is at least part of the reason it is so unpopular in modern culture.


But it is not a binary choice.


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## Taplow

Blancrocher said:


> I doubt the same could be said of her shoes, though.


My point was that not everything is about the observer.


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## Boston Charlie

KenOC said:


> Sex, being the primary activity of the human race, permeates all music. Classical music tries to pretend that, unlike other branches of music, it doesn't matter. This pretense is unsuccessful.


Sex and religion: as I see it classical music has always placed emphasis on both in great measure. The masses, psalms, vespers, chants and so forth are juxtaposed by opera which most often features content revolving around love and/or sex.

The intense need to survive and procreate is countered by the equally intense desire to find some existential peace, finding a meaning to one's living, devoting oneself to a purpose or cause (higher power) beyond oneself.


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## science

I'm against it. Anything that might lead to more popularity for classical music makes my tastes less prestigious.


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## KenOC

LezLee said:


> KenOC and some others will remember there was an Amazon forum thread called 'Hotties in the Classics'. In vain I tried to find some examples of 'sexed-up' men.


Lez, here ye go.


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## LezLee

Thanks! On balance, I find the instruments more attractive.......:lol:


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## Roger Knox

Becca said:


> Just a thought ... as many orchestras now have audition candidates perform behind a screen in order to avoid biases


Mere half measures won't do -- opera should be done behind a screen too (especially "regie").


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## eugeneonagain

DavidA said:


> Sorry mate, but the editor of Gramophone Magazine once told me that sales of the mag increase if there is a good looking woman on the cover


Well mate, that must mean the editor of Gramophone Magazine is a shallow twonk catering to other shallow twonks.


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## eugeneonagain

Art Rock said:


> The goal of marketing is to maximize sales and profits, not to supply the customer with the best possible product, not to cater to the taste of everyone. As simple as that. There's nothing new to it either. The slightly risque covers of the seventies' Westminster Gold albums have been mentioned, and I recall the flak cellist Ofra Harnoy got around 1990 in CD reviews for her poses on the CD covers (which were really quite harmless).


Thanks. I'm aware of that. It's the very reason I have no respect for it and find it counter-productive and antithetical to the stated aims of 'the market'...vaunted by the very same people who practice marketing ideas.

If people are happy with not being guided to the best possible product or service they require, then more fool them; especially if they are a cheerleader for this sort of thing. A fool and his money are soon parted...as the saying goes.

I have very little time for opinions which wheel-out the "this is the way of the world" answer with regard to such matters. Marketing is not a force of nature like the weather, it is a deliberate strategy.


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## Triplets

Alfacharger said:


> I think the Lara St. John cover was only spoof on the old Westminster Gold Album covers!


The Beethoven was the third Classical album that I ever purchased, at age 14. The cover definitely attracted me but the music blew me away. I was on a trajectory to discover the Beethoven PCs anyway, without the sexy cover, but maybe that kind of marketing may catch the occasional pubescent male.
My next album was David Oistrakh in the Beethoven VC, about as unsexy a cover as could be, but oh! The Music!


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## fluteman

This topic frequently comes up in classical music forums, but I don't see how there is much to it. Yes, as Bulldog says, sex sells, and always has, including in the classical music world. But if great music isn't integral to the presentation, I don't see how sex appeal, at least in the sense of attractive, scantily-clad or nude women (or men) helps much. If that's what floats your boat, you sure don't need classical musicians, however beautiful, to get it. It's as if an orchestra sold a great steak and lobster dinner at a fine restaurant near the concert hall with its concert tickets. You might like it, but it isn't really relevant to the music, as you could always buy the dinner without the concert.


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## eugeneonagain

science said:


> I'm against it. Anything that might lead to more popularity for classical music makes my tastes less prestigious.


Problem is it doesn't lead to more popularity. Sales of classical music and concert attendances have not risen, they have in fact consistently fallen and this cheap marketing strategy has had enough time to bear any significant fruit. If the Westminster Golds etc were a step in the right direction classical music ought to have huge mass audiences by now...hasn't happened.

What we get is one or two Nigel Kennedys who pull in large crowds (half who are there for the zeitgeist) for a limited time playing the evergreens and having one or two successful CDs which turn up by the truckload in bargain bins and charity shops a decade later.

There is no new audience for contemporary composers or less-performed composers of the past. It's a false dawn

It's a pity so many people are fooled by it and fall into the predictable holes of assuming either moral prudishness or regurgitating marketing claptrap.


----------



## JAS

I generally find that it mostly just brings out the prude in me. Classical music is one of the last arenas not entirely tainted by the crassest of commercial inclinations. That may be part of why it is less popular than the current wave of pop music, which is dripping in sex and little else (yes, merely my opinion), but if we sacrifice that basic integrity in a desperate attempt to gain an audience that probably does not really exist, will what we lose be worth what we gain?


----------



## brianvds

LezLee said:


> In vain I tried to find some examples of 'sexed-up' men.


There ya go:


----------



## Dan Ante

So the fat lady of the Opera will become a myth nooooo I don't think so, long live the music.


----------



## Haydn man

I think once sexing up of classical musicians started then there is no turning back. The marketing folks are only doing this because because it works.
I can see why young female musicians are marketed this way, not that I think this is necessarily right or wrong. The problem for these performers is the pressure to stay 'young and beautiful ' when the next starlet is waiting in the wings.
I lose interest rapidly in the CD cover when the music starts


----------



## KenOC

Just in passing, many years ago studying marketing in B-school I read of a study. Two similar groups of male subjects were shown pictures of current models of cars, shot in the studio. One group saw just the cars, the other saw the cars with scantily-clad babes lounging on them. They were asked to estimate the prices of the cars.

The group seeing the cars with the babes estimated the prices several thousand dollars above the other group. I do think there’s a lesson here.


----------



## Dan Ante

KenOC said:


> Just in passing, many years ago studying marketing in B-school I read of a study. Two similar groups of male subjects were shown pictures of current models of cars, shot in the studio. One group saw just the cars, the other saw the cars with scantily-clad babes lounging on them. They were asked to estimate the prices of the cars.
> 
> The group seeing the cars with the babes estimated the prices several thousand dollars above the other group. I do think there's a lesson here.


So no one was really interested in the cars, I would have insisted on looking under the bonnet and reading all the specs who cares about scantly clothed women uh.


----------



## KenOC

Well, we may think we're different, and maybe we are. But it remains: Sex sells soap.


----------



## Dan Ante

KenOC said:


> Well, we may think we're different, and maybe we are. But it remains: Sex sells soap.


I don't believe it, absolutely disgusting.


----------



## KenOC

Dan Ante said:


> I don't believe it, absolutely disgusting.


You don't believe that sex, and the promise of sex, is used in advertising to sell products? Hmmm.... 

Why Sex Sells…More Than Ever


----------



## eugeneonagain

KenOC said:


> You don't believe that sex, and the promise of sex, is used in advertising to sell products? Hmmm....
> 
> Why Sex Sells…More Than Ever


Facile analysis. What is being sold to the consumer through marketing is the promise of empowerment. The article itself admits that it is used merely as an attention grabber for impulse purchasing and for products geared toward young men's ideas about sexual attraction - scent, deodorants, throwaway media.

As is usual in the pseudo-scientific worlds of marketing and business they make the mistake of assuming that the same strategy that works in one area must work for everything. If you impulse buy music because of the cover art, you wanted the cover art. The idea it will create classical music converts is unproven and illogical.


----------



## JAS

KenOC said:


> Just in passing, many years ago studying marketing in B-school I read of a study. Two similar groups of male subjects were shown pictures of current models of cars, shot in the studio. One group saw just the cars, the other saw the cars with scantily-clad babes lounging on them. They were asked to estimate the prices of the cars.
> 
> The group seeing the cars with the babes estimated the prices several thousand dollars above the other group. I do think there's a lesson here.


They may have subliminally been pricing the scantily-clad babes, which, I understand, generally prove to be _very_ expensive.


----------



## fluteman

brianvds said:


> There ya go:


Nathan Milstein mentions in his memoir written with Solomon Volkov that Stravinsky was very small, but also very muscular. Prokofiev, who apparently could be rather rude and immature, once got into a physical fight with him after insulting him, and I doubt that came out very well for Prokofiev. There's also a photo of the young Milstein and his then best friend Vladimir Horowitz bare chested at a luxurious European spa and they were both very fit, though apparently the tall and handsome Piatigorsky got all the girls.


----------



## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> You don't believe that sex, and the promise of sex, is used in advertising to sell products? Hmmm....
> 
> Why Sex Sells…More Than Ever





> Reichert said this upward trend in erotic ads is a reflection of society.
> 
> "It takes more explicitness to grab our attention and arouse us than before," he said. "In the early 1900s, exposed arms and ankles of female models generated the same level of arousal as partially nude models do today. We can see during our lifetimes the changes in sexually explicit content on television, movies, books and other forms of media beyond just advertising."


Society has been sliding down the toilet pipe for decades and is wallowing in a cesspool.


----------



## DavidA

eugeneonagain said:


> Well mate, that must mean the editor of Gramophone Magazine is a shallow twonk catering to other shallow twonks.


We live in a real world! He was not a shallow twonk at all. He just said it as a matter of FACT. Sorry, it is a FACT. You need to read what I say. He didn't say he deliberately put bimbos on the front cover which is what you appear too be implying. Just that if a good looking female musician was on the front cover then sales went up


----------



## eugeneonagain

DavidA said:


> We live in a real world! He was not a shallow twonk at all. He just said it as a matter of FACT. Sorry, it is a FACT. You need to read what I say. He didn't say he deliberately put bimbos on the front cover which is what you appear too be implying. Just that if a good looking female musician was on the front cover then sales went up


What he was obviously saying is that people buy a magazine with a particular cover. That is nothing to do with successfully promoting what is inside the covers. When I was a teen I bought a few magazines, one-off, for the cover, because that's what teens do. Then I grew up.

Adding 'FACT' and 'real world' to this to imply that it's a no-nonsense statement (which it isn't) doesn't alter this one little bit.


----------



## Dan Ante

KenOC said:


> You don't believe that sex, and the promise of sex, is used in advertising to sell products? Hmmm....


You said:


KenOC said:


> Well, we may think we're different, and maybe we are. But it remains: Sex sells soap.


Who does it sell to? A pretty girl holding or doing something with a bar of soap is marketed at who, not men we don't buy soap it is a woman's job(at least for married men) so is it aimed at lesbians? I don't think so, I would probably think "she's a bit of all right" personally I would not be persuaded to purchase at all.


----------



## KenOC

Dan Ante said:


> Who does it sell to? A pretty girl holding or doing something with a bar of soap is marketed at who, not men we don't buy soap it is a woman's job(at least for married men) so is it aimed at lesbians? I don't think so, I would probably think "she's a bit of all right" personally I would not be persuaded to purchase at all.


The answer might be: "If you use this soap, you'll be young and beautiful with all that fat and those wrinkles gone. You will have a much wider choice of mating opportunities!"

In most advertising the real message isn't what's said or written, but what is suggested on a more basic level.


----------



## Dan Ante

KenOC said:


> The answer might be: *"If you use this soap, you'll be young and beautiful with all that fat and those wrinkles gone. You will have a much wider choice of mating opportunities!"*
> 
> In most advertising the real message isn't what's said or written, but what is suggested on a more basic level.


Ken at my age believe me that just don't wash...


----------



## KenOC

You're obviously not the target market...wrong demographic entirely! I'm getting more and more maiings for cancer cures and funeral homes, but I don't think they've figured out how to use sex to sell to my demographic yet (outside of Viagra and the like).


----------



## eugeneonagain

KenOC said:


> You're obviously not the target market...wrong demographic entirely! I'm getting more and more maiings for cancer cures and funeral homes, but I don't think they've figured out how to use sex to sell to my demographic yet (outside of Viagra and the like).


I suppose your demographic doesn't involve any women then? It actually has more women and I don't think they all want to see naked females plastered over every advertising campaign. For that's surely what is meant by "sex sells".


----------



## KenOC

I really can’t pursue this farther, it’s just too silly. The use of sexual messages to sell product has been around a very long time and is certainly no deep and dark secret. It doesn’t have to be “naked females plastered” etc. It can be as simple (and obvious) as young and beautiful girls flocking to caress the head and face of an older man who has just darkened his hair with Grecian Formula.

Anyway, enough.


----------



## eugeneonagain

It might help to follow the thread. This sort of advertising, which works for part of the population and for certain products, doesn't seem to have worked for classical music.

It's also not about 'advertising' per se, it's about railroading young performers into adopting sexualised images. I realise that this sort of thing blows apart the youthful certainties of a good deal of the silver-surfers here, when it was all simpler and girls could be slapped on the backside.


----------



## Guest

I'm quite sympathetic with Member Eugeneonagain's position above. I think more in terms of Classical Music being dumbed down (Nigel Kennedy, Lang Lang, young female violinists) and that these strategies backfire because all you get are people who want to follow celebrities rather than developing a sustainable interest in the music.

I have this one in my LP collection:










It reminds me of the old Top of the Pops LPs Woolworths used to sell for 25p in the 1970s:










'Let your yeah be yeah'


----------



## Dan Ante

KenOC said:


> You're obviously not the target market...wrong demographic entirely! I'm getting more and more maiings for cancer cures and funeral homes, but I don't think they've figured out how to use sex to sell to my demographic yet (outside of Viagra and the like).


I know the feeling I recently had a phone call from "Bupa" they sell personal alarms for the old and infirm I told them to send the details in the mail as I was on the roof water blasting, I suppose I was a bit mean.


----------



## Dan Ante

Tulse said:


> I'm quite sympathetic with Member Eugeneonagain's position above. I think more in terms of Classical Music being dumbed down (Nigel Kennedy, Lang Lang, young female violinists) and that these strategies backfire because all you get are people who want to follow celebrities rather than developing a sustainable interest in the music.
> 
> '


Are you suggesting that Kennedy's recording of the Elgar concerto and other Elgar works plus Brahms concerto etc etc are dumbed down, even his 4 seasons was in no way dumbed down. All that happened is that they were marketed at a wider audience.


----------



## KenOC

All this talk about "victimized" performers makes me think of Yuja Wang, who seems never to have met an opportunity for exhibitionism that she could pass by. Check her MANY images in the Internet! And in fact, her photoshoots and outrageous concert wear have done her career little harm. Though I suppose her keyboard prowess has helped as well...she has more than the usual helping of that!










BTW I'm not sure why lusting (in a theoretical way of course) after Yuja is mutually exclusive of "developing a sustainable interest in the music." Lots of well-born ladies left wet spots on their concert cushions back in Liszt's day. Music survived.


----------



## eugeneonagain

KenOC said:


> All this talk about "victimized" performers makes me think of Yuja Wang, who seems never to have met an opportunity for exhibitionism that she could pass by. Check her MANY images in the Internet! And in fact, her photoshoots and outrageous concert wear have done her career little harm. Though I suppose her keyboard prowess has helped as well...she has more than the usual helping of that!
> 
> BTW I'm not sure why lusting (in a theoretical way of course) after Yuja is mutually exclusive of "developing a sustainable interest in the music." Lots of well-born ladies left wet spots on their concert cushions back in Liszt's day. Music survived.


How did I know that word 'victimised' would surface? Anyone who mentions coercion is playing the victim right? (See James Levine thread for the same hackneyed position).

Yuja Wang is such an obvious exception that proves the rule that it's not worth mentioning. I'd be interested in knowing how many people on this forum actually listen to Yuja Wang's playing. I have listened to some on You Tube and seen the commentaries positive and negative, but I don't own a single recording, nor do I think: 'Hmmm...I want to hear Prokofiev 2, I'll listen to the Yuja Wang recording because she wears tight dresses. What a treat that will be!'

Not that she isn't a damn good pianist, but she'd be a damn good pianist anyway. Now a broken-down cynic might retort that I wouldn't even know she existed if her dresses weren't tight. Really though, is that an indictment upon my lack of respect for the promotional strategy or upon the general sensibilities of the modern mind that can't even begin to pay to attention to anything unless it's being sold to them as sexual, millionaire-making, in-10-days, free...and whatever else appeals to lazy-minded people?

Maybe Liszt only survived because of his sexy reputation. Could the world have managed without him? Possibly. I quite like Liszt, but a great composer he ain't.


----------



## Larkenfield

Subliminal sex messages in advertisements have been used for years, whether one is aware of it or not or believes that it is effective. There are a number of online videos with numerous specific examples used to promote softdrinks, alcoholic beverages, movies, monetary currency... just about everything. The use is all-pervasive in the commercial world but is sometimes hard to spot unless one is paying conscious attention to the details within the larger picture and studies them closely, because when present, they are presented subtlely to appeal to the _subconsious mind_. The idea is to associate the pleasures of sex with whatever person or product that advertisers are trying to promote. Advertisers use subliminal messeges to manipulate the public, and shockingly enough, subliminal sex images and references have been found in Disney animated features for children. I'm not exaggerating and the subtle examples can be found online. So it's no wonder that sex has also been used to promote classical music and its more attractive performers.

On the other hand, an unhealthy 300 lbs soprano with no sex appeal singing _Carmen_ wouldn't interest me in the slightest at a live performance, let alone a beefy 300 lbs Don Jose, no matter how great their voices, because human beings have been known to be visual creatures too. At best, someone with a healthy sex appeal can represent desireablity and passion and something far from the dirt that the subliminal advertisers may try to exploit-and it's a real eye-opener to wake up to the fact of how pervasive subconscious messages have been promoted in advertising and elsewhere going back more than 50 years.


----------



## KenOC

Larkenfield said:


> Subliminal sex messages in advertisements have been used for years...


There is a book from the distant past named "Seduction of the Innocent." It is concerned with these messages, finding (for instance) barely disguised images of sex organs hidden in pictures of the ice cubes in a 7-up advertisement. Some of it seems far-fetched, but the segments on comic books are very convincing and helped bring about the Comics Code Authority (now defunct).

https://www.amazon.com/Seduction-In...063&sr=1-1&keywords=seduction+of+the+innocent










Before that, here's what kiddies were reading (and me too):


----------



## brianvds

Dan Ante said:


> So no one was really interested in the cars,


Of course not. I have noticed this time and again: for many, if not most men, a car is not just a vehicle. it is also a status symbol, and supposed to be a babe magnet.



> I would have insisted on looking under the bonnet and reading all the specs who cares about scantly clothed women uh.


This made me laugh. In my native language, among a certain demographic, there is a pretty crude expression that likens a woman's bikini bottom to a Volkswagen bonnet. So you might _like _to look under the bonnet, but in today's politically correct world you're going to end up getting slapped.


----------



## brianvds

KenOC said:


> You don't believe that sex, and the promise of sex, is used in advertising to sell products? Hmmm....
> 
> Why Sex Sells…More Than Ever


Taken from an evolutionary point of view, it is not so much sex that sells as reproduction. And men and women have somewhat different strategies for reproduction, thus it depends to some extent at which group the ad is aimed.


----------



## Dan Ante

The logo for Skoda was known as "The flying Dork"









You work it out.


----------



## Haydn man

The classical music industry probably needs all the help it can get to survive in the modern world.
Sexing up of the performers is legitimate marketing it has risks and benefits just like everything in life


----------



## Guest

Dan Ante said:


> Are you suggesting that Kennedy's recording of the Elgar concerto and other Elgar works plus Brahms concerto etc etc are dumbed down, even his 4 seasons was in no way dumbed down. All that happened is that they were marketed at a wider audience.


No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I have his Elgar violin concerto and play it on rotation.


----------



## DavidA

eugeneonagain said:


> What he was obviously saying is that people buy a magazine with a particular cover. That is nothing to do with successfully promoting what is inside the covers. When I was a teen I bought a few magazines, one-off, for the cover, because that's what teens do. Then I grew up.
> 
> Adding 'FACT' and 'real world' to this to imply that it's a no-nonsense statement (which it isn't) doesn't alter this one little bit.


I added fact because what happened was factual. Of course he was saying that when there happened to be a pretty female on the cover sales went up. Your saying he was a 'shallow twonk' was completely unfactual because, having talked to the guy, I know he isn't. Just he was responding honestly to a question. When there happened to be a pretty lady on the front of the mag sales went up. 
Have you got some high minded ideal that somehow classical music is beyond this sort of thing? If you do, then I would remind you that many of the operas we listen to and consider 'art' have a high degree of sex in them. (A certain opera even has twins in an incestuous relationship!) A piece like Berlioz 'Symphony Fantastique' came out of his passion for an actress (and is all about that passion) and Scheherazade is set in a harem! We could go on and on.


----------



## DavidA

eugeneonagain said:


> How did I know that word 'victimised' would surface? Anyone who mentions coercion is playing the victim right? (See James Levine thread for the same hackneyed position).
> 
> Yuja Wang is such an obvious exception that proves the rule that it's not worth mentioning. I'd be interested in knowing how many people on this forum actually listen to Yuja Wang's playing. I have listened to some on You Tube and seen the commentaries positive and negative, but I don't own a single recording, nor do I think: 'Hmmm...I want to hear Prokofiev 2, I'll listen to the Yuja Wang recording because she wears tight dresses. What a treat that will be!'
> 
> Not that she isn't a damn good pianist, but she'd be a damn good pianist anyway. Now a broken-down cynic might retort that I wouldn't even know she existed if her dresses weren't tight. Really though, is that an indictment upon my lack of respect for the promotional strategy or upon the general sensibilities of the modern mind that can't even begin to pay to attention to anything unless it's being sold to them as sexual, millionaire-making, in-10-days, free...*and whatever else appeals to lazy-minded people?*
> 
> Maybe Liszt only survived because of his sexy reputation. Could the world have managed without him? Possibly. I quite like Liszt, but a great composer he ain't.


I have some of Yuja's CDs which I admire for her playing - you can't see what she is wearing on audio. And I am anything but lazy minded. Please think what you are saying before you write something that is potentially insulting!


----------



## eugeneonagain

DavidA said:


> I added fact because what happened was factual. Of course he was saying that when there happened to be a pretty female on the cover sales went up. Your saying he was a 'shallow twonk' was completely unfactual because, having talked to the guy, I know he isn't. Just he was responding honestly to a question. When there happened to be a pretty lady on the front of the mag sales went up.
> Have you got some high minded ideal that somehow classical music is beyond this sort of thing? If you do, then I would remind you that many of the operas we listen to and consider 'art' have a high degree of sex in them. (A certain opera even has twins in an incestuous relationship!) A piece like Berlioz 'Symphony Fantastique' came out of his passion for an actress (and is all about that passion) and Scheherazade is set in a harem! We could go on and on.


I don't have a 'high-minded' ideal. I'd remind you that the thread is about a trend for performers being coerced and persuaded to cultivate a sexualised image for marketing purposes. This is a separate question from whether people think that sort of marketing 'works'.

I don't doubt (in fact I already know) that a great deal of music is the result of love/lust and sexual infatuations, but what Berlioz didn't do was simply provide us with a picture of his crush in a bikini, he transforms it into music. The actress didn't have to twerk on the score cover or anything. It's more sophisticated than your editorial amigo's methodology.



DavidA said:


> I have some of Yuja's CDs which I admire for her playing - you can't see what she is wearing on audio. And I am anything but lazy minded. Please think what you are saying before you write something that is potentially insulting!


It's only insulting to you if you include yourself in that group. I'm not responsible for your self-selection or you taking umbrage with it.


----------



## Blancrocher

eugeneonagain said:


> Maybe Liszt only survived because of his sexy reputation. Could the world have managed without him? Possibly. I quite like Liszt, but a great composer he ain't.


I expected to see some appalling comments in this thread and so fortified myself as best I could, but I have to admit that you've shocked me here, eugeneonagain.


----------



## eugeneonagain

Blancrocher said:


> I expected to see some appalling comments in this thread and so fortified myself as best I could, but I have to admit that you've shocked me here, eugeneonagain.


It appears worse than it is. I actually listen to Liszt's music (I recently reappraised it). He was a famous virtuoso pianist though, more than a composer. His longevity is indeed more than just his youthful good looks: his development of the symphonic poem, his championing of new music and support of other artists...long after the ladies stopped swooning.


----------



## DavidA

eugeneonagain said:


> I don't have a 'high-minded' ideal. I'd remind you that the thread is about a trend for performers being coerced and persuaded to cultivate a sexualised image for marketing purposes. This is a separate question from whether people think that sort of marketing 'works'.
> 
> I don't doubt (in fact I already know) that a great deal of music is the result of love/lust and sexual infatuations, but what Berlioz didn't do was simply provide us with a picture of his crush in a bikini, he transforms it into music. The actress didn't have to twerk on the score cover or anything. *It's more sophisticated than your editorial amigo's methodology.
> *
> 
> It's only insulting to you if you include yourself in that group. I'm not responsible for your self-selection or you taking umbrage with it.


If you would only take the trouble to read what other people write you would find that methodology had nothing to do with it.

I don't take umbrage with you - just shake my head in disbelief that you could write such things


----------



## Star

eugeneonagain said:


> It appears worse than it is. I actually listen to Liszt's music (I recently reappraised it). He was a famous virtuoso pianist though, more than a composer. His longevity is indeed more than just his youthful good looks: his development of the symphonic poem, his championing of new music and support of other artists...long after the ladies stopped swooning.


How nice of you to reappraise the work of one of the most original thinkers in the history of music - someone who revolutionised the piano. No doubt Liszt's shade is relieved!


----------



## pcnog11

Sex sells. Pure and simple.


----------



## SixFootScowl

pcnog11 said:


> Sex sells. Pure and simple.


Mainly because the masses have little control over their impulses and refuse to protect their minds from mass advertising (and mass media).


----------



## philoctetes

Critics screamed bloody murder over Mutter's famous back-shot, which also in monochrome, would seem to be the precedent. But the LSJ shot reeks of kiddie porn to me, or bad taste at the least.

I typically don't care much about these things, but I have to admit that Vilde Frang's picture on her Britten - Korngold disc won't get complaints from me, nor will the music. If a little sex appeal is Ok for opera, why not for a soloist?

OTOH, much popular music, the real mass market, is indeed overdominated by sexual images and cults of personality, and much more to its detriment.


----------



## DavidA

One thing about Yuja Wang is that she started wearing more skimpy attire after she was established on the concert platform. I've no doubt it helps sell tickets in some quarters but no doubting her reputation was made as a pianist rather than a bimbo


----------



## KenOC

Was amused a few years ago when the local paper called Yuja Wang's Philadelphia performance a "****walk." :lol:


----------



## Marinera

^
wow that's harsh...


----------



## Dan Ante

Tulse said:


> No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I have his Elgar violin concerto and play it on rotation.


Wow what a performance, I am not into that kind of music but must admit I am impressed what a versatile musician is our Nige, I remember hearing that Menuhin had told him that if he continued playing with Grappelli he was on his own.
So what did you mean by dumbing down?


----------



## eugeneonagain

Star said:


> How nice of you to reappraise the work of one of the most original thinkers in the history of music - someone who revolutionised the piano. No doubt Liszt's shade is relieved!


Weird. Isn't that what I was reappraising? I freely admitted in one of my first posts on this forum that I previously had a misguided opinion of Liszt's contribution to music. I have two Liszt CDs in my rotation, including my favourite 1953 recording of his 1st Piano concerto by Claudio Arrau. 
What I actually alluded to was that his longevity in classical music is a result of more than his early youthful time as the Tom Jones of 19th century piano. I think he would have made a mark anyway. He is still not one of the 'greats', but an innovator nonetheless.

You're chasing a will 'o the wisp if you think I'm somehow dismissing him.


----------



## Larkenfield

Tulse said:


>


Loved Nigel's performance. All heart!


----------



## DavidA

KenOC said:


> Was amused a few years ago when the local paper called Yuja Wang's Philadelphia performance a "****walk." :lol:


Let's face it these reporters probably don't know a piano from a violin anyway. It annoys me when ignorant idiots try to pull down good artists, whatever they wear.


----------



## DavidA

Tulse said:


> No, I'm not suggesting that at all. I have his Elgar violin concerto and play it on rotation.


I find dear old Nige one of the most annoying people on the planet with his affected working class accent - I am from working class stock myself and it annoys me when an obviously middle class man tries to sound working class. For what I ask? Also his affectedly weird dress. That might have been OK when he was a young man but now? He's middle aged! Like Yuja Wang wearing miniskirts at 50! Kennedy is a great violinist and should have got past that by now.


----------



## Star

eugeneonagain said:


> Weird. Isn't that what I was reappraising? I freely admitted in one of my first posts on this forum that I previously had a misguided opinion of Liszt's contribution to music. I have two Liszt CDs in my rotation, including my favourite 1953 recording of his 1st Piano concerto by Claudio Arrau.
> What I actually alluded to was that his longevity in classical music is a result of more than his early youthful time as the Tom Jones of 19th century piano. I think he would have made a mark anyway. He is still not one of the 'greats', but an innovator nonetheless.
> 
> You're chasing a will 'o the wisp if you think I'm somehow dismissing him.


He no doubts rests easy knowing he has your approval !


----------



## Guest

Dan Ante said:


> Wow what a performance, I am not into that kind of music but must admit I am impressed what a versatile musician is our Nige, I remember hearing that Menuhin had told him that if he continued playing with Grappelli he was on his own.
> So what did you mean by dumbing down?


You watched the video but you don't know what I mean? All of it?


----------



## Guest

DavidA said:


> I find dear old Nige one of the most annoying people on the planet with his affected working class accent - I am from working class stock myself and it annoys me when an obviously middle class man tries to sound working class. For what I ask?


Yes, I feel the same. It is even more ridiculous when middle class folk singers try to sing in what they believe is a rustic farm labourer's accent. Pillocks.


----------



## Biffo

Dan Ante said:


> Wow what a performance, I am not into that kind of music but must admit I am impressed what a versatile musician is our Nige, I remember hearing that Menuhin had told him that if he continued playing with Grappelli he was on his own.
> So what did you mean by dumbing down?


I think you misremembered - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Icon-Menuh...515406326&sr=8-3&keywords=menuhin+&+grappelli


----------



## LezLee

Tulse said:


> Yes, I feel the same. It is even more ridiculous when middle class folk singers try to sing in what they believe is a rustic farm labourer's accent. Pillocks.


Yes, one of my pet hates. It seems to affect even the best of them. I like and admire Bellowhead who were amazing live, but have never bought anything of theirs because Jon Boden is one of the pillocks and I can't listen to him. :devil:


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## Taggart

Tulse said:


> Yes, I feel the same. It is even more ridiculous when middle class folk singers try to sing in what they believe is a rustic farm labourer's accent. Pillocks.


The Kipper Family have a lot to answer for.


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## eugeneonagain

Taggart said:


> The Kipper Family have a lot to answer for.


Brilliant. You're not the one fan paying for and running this site are you?

If I ever want to hear rustic singing I always turn to The Wurzels. They never disappoint. "Oi drove moi tractor through yer 'aystack last noit.."


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## philoctetes

Sometimes the imagery doesn't have to "sex up" to be annoying. Great example is Barbara Hannigan. I want to puke every time I see "Let Me Tell You" on my screen. And her latest release has her dancing around a bunch of men on a tabletop - wha? Being less put off by the latter, I decided to give this hotshot a chance and just listen to the album.

Case dismissed. Not only is her voice amazing, but that's the way I've always wanted to hear Berg played.


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## Dan Ante

Tulse said:


> You watched the video but you don't know what I mean? All of it?


No I stopped at the interview but have since watched all the way through, I am not sure what you are getting at, it was an interview for bTV and IMO was hilarious, was it the use of the "F" word or the fooling about that you are referring to?


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## Dan Ante

Biffo said:


> I think you misremembered - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Icon-Menuh...515406326&sr=8-3&keywords=menuhin+&+grappelli


Biffo. Yes more than likely I have got the words wrong but the TV interview was many years ago have you a link to the interview it would be most interesting to hear it again, when did you hear it?


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## Becca

philoctetes said:


> Sometimes the imagery doesn't have to "sex up" to be annoying. Great example is Barbara Hannigan. I want to puke every time I see "Let Me Tell You" on my screen. And her latest release has her dancing around a bunch of men on a tabletop - wha? Being less put off by the latter, I decided to give this hotshot a chance and just listen to the album.
> 
> Case dismissed. Not only is her voice amazing, but that's the way I've always wanted to hear Berg played.


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## KenOC

Dan Ante said:


> I know the feeling I recently had a phone call from "Bupa" they sell personal alarms for the old and infirm I told them to send the details in the mail as I was on the roof water blasting, I suppose I was a bit mean.


You should have said, "I'm sorry, but I've just fallen and can't get up. So I'm unable to take advantage of your kind offer right now." :lol:


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## Biffo

Dan Ante said:


> Biffo. Yes more than likely I have got the words wrong but the TV interview was many years ago have you a link to the interview it would be most interesting to hear it again, when did you hear it?


I don't have any links to interviews, my reason for assuming you misremembered was the recordings Menuhin made with Grappelli - the link I provided was to one (or a collection) of them. I thought it odd that Menuhin would criticise Kennedy for an association with Grappelli when he did exactly the same.

I remember the Menuhin/Grappelli recordings when they were first released; they didn't appeal to me then and don't now. For a time (possibly still is) Kennedy became a strong advocate of the music of Jimi Hendrix and played his own arrangements, sometimes as encores at concerts but I think this was long after his time with Menuhin.


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## Dan Ante

Biffo said:


> I don't have any links to interviews, my reason for assuming you misremembered was the recordings Menuhin made with Grappelli - the link I provided was to one (or a collection) of them. I thought it odd that Menuhin would criticise Kennedy for an association with Grappelli when he did exactly the same.
> 
> I remember the Menuhin/Grappelli recordings when they were first released; they didn't appeal to me then and don't now. For a time (possibly still is) Kennedy became a strong advocate of the music of Jimi Hendrix and played his own arrangements, sometimes as encores at concerts but I think this was long after his time with Menuhin.


He was relating to his early days of study I thought it was during his time at the Menuhin school of music he was advised to spend less time on Grappelli and more on his studies but it could have been when he was at the Julliard school, I just am not sure any more. One of the joys of getting older. 
I have quite a few Grappelli and Menuhin recordings under the 'Jazz in Paris' label plus the quintette du Hot Club de France with Django Reinhardt all good jazz.:tiphat:


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## JeffD

JeffD said:


> Perhaps it is the straight laced 1950s oh so serious non-sensual non-sexual image of classical music that is at least part of the reason it is so unpopular in modern culture.





dogen said:


> But it is not a binary choice.


If I get you right you mean that that there is a continuum of imagery between dry and dusty at one end through sensuous to pornographic at the other end, and I would agree with that.

But I was surprised when the Eroica Trio CD covers made such controversy. Just the three women members of the trios in very attractive formal wear smiling for the camera, but so much was made of "sexing up" their image inappropriately for classical music. Maybe some can elaborate more on the controversy. It made it seem kind of binary, or at least not much room in which to avoid offending someone.


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## Guest

JeffD said:


> If I get you right you mean that that there is a continuum of imagery between dry and dusty at one end through sensuous to pornographic at the other end, and I would agree with that.
> 
> But I was surprised when the Eroica Trio CD covers made such controversy. Just the three women members of the trios in very attractive formal wear smiling for the camera, but so much was made of "sexing up" their image inappropriately for classical music. Maybe some can elaborate more on the controversy. It made it seem kind of binary, or at least not much room in which to avoid offending someone.
> 
> View attachment 100758
> View attachment 100759


A carefully placed 'T' might change perceptions.


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## Biffo

Dan Ante said:


> He was relating to his early days of study I thought it was during his time at the Menuhin school of music he was advised to spend less time on Grappelli and more on his studies but it could have been when he was at the Julliard school, I just am not sure any more. One of the joys of getting older.
> I have quite a few Grappelli and Menuhin recordings under the 'Jazz in Paris' label plus the quintette du Hot Club de France with Django Reinhardt all good jazz.:tiphat:


Here is a newspaper interview with Kennedy describing his first meeting with Grappelli, no mention of any disapproval by Menuhin though - 
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2007/dec/19/jazz.urban

I know what you mean by the 'joys of getting older'.


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## eugeneonagain

Wasn't it rather that Kennedy was advised not to play with Grappelli, even though he'd been offered the opportunity, and that he later regretted _that_?


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## SiegendesLicht

KenOC said:


> Sex, being the primary activity of the human race, permeates all music. *Classical music tries to pretend that, unlike other branches of music, it doesn't matter.* This pretense is unsuccessful.


Somehow I have never noticed classical music pretending that it is not about love and sex. But then one of my first classical CDs was this one.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> Sex, being the primary activity of the human race, permeates all music. Classical music tries to pretend that, unlike other branches of music, it doesn't matter. This pretense is unsuccessful.


_All_ music? That seems a bit of a stretch to say the least. Given that much classical music is non-verbal, how can one construct an argument in support of such a claim? It is not true that all swans are white, because some are black. Personally, when I listen to Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, I can't detect a permeation of sex.


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## Bulldog

dogen said:


> _All_ music? That seems a bit of a stretch to say the least. Given that much classical music is non-verbal, how can one construct an argument in support of such a claim? It is not true that all swans are white, because some are black. Personally, when I listen to Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima, I can't detect a permeation of sex.


I detect it in the Penderecki, but maybe that's just me and my over-stimulated blood flow.


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## Nereffid

JeffD said:


> If I get you right you mean that that there is a continuum of imagery between dry and dusty at one end through sensuous to pornographic at the other end, and I would agree with that.
> 
> But I was surprised when the Eroica Trio CD covers made such controversy. Just the three women members of the trios in very attractive formal wear smiling for the camera, but so much was made of "sexing up" their image inappropriately for classical music. Maybe some can elaborate more on the controversy. It made it seem kind of binary, or at least not much room in which to avoid offending someone.
> 
> View attachment 100758
> View attachment 100759


I wasn't aware of any controversy at the time, but looking at some old articles about the Eroica Trio I think it's fair to say the world has moved on a bit since then (or _some_ of the world, at any rate). There was an element of ****-shaming in some of the critics' comments; these days we're less likely to assume that women who choose to look their best (or however you want to put it) are trying to be sexually provocative.


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## JeffD

Tulse said:


> A carefully placed 'T' might change perceptions.


I think I recall one of the complaining articles used this; siting "all but the missing T" or something like that.

I recall being mesmerized by their playing, especially the Pasion CD had four tangos by Astor Piazzolla that just dropped my jaw. When I heard about all the flak I had to get out the CD covers and see what the heck people were complaining about.


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## JeffD

Nereffid said:


> I wasn't aware of any controversy at the time, but looking at some old articles about the Eroica Trio I think it's fair to say the world has moved on a bit since then (or _some_ of the world, at any rate). There was an element of ****-shaming in some of the critics' comments; these days we're less likely to assume that women who choose to look their best (or however you want to put it) are trying to be sexually provocative.


Yea, I remember some of that. I recall also some complaint about the unfair advantage they had in marketing their trio because of their attractiveness. (Said attractiveness having nothing to do with their musical abilities or the quality of the performances.)

By the way, get the Pasion CD and listen to the Piazzolla. OMG. It snaps so un-self consciously, so in the moment, one would think they are improvising.

One might argue that their talent was provocative. Talented people are more attractive ya know. Or maybe their performance was provocative. I mean, tango is a very sexy genre, very consciously sexy.


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## Dan Ante

Biffo said:


> Here is a newspaper interview with Kennedy describing his first meeting with Grappelli, no mention of any disapproval by Menuhin though -
> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2007/dec/19/jazz.urban
> 
> I know what you mean by the 'joys of getting older'.


That is interesting but the paper is dated 2007, I was on about a BBC TV interview approx in the 90s...never mind.


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## Jacck




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## christomacin

I won't lie. i'm a carnal being with fantasies just like every one else. I would LOVE to have gotten a gander at Anna-Sophie Mutter or Kyung Wha Chung or Martha Argerich fully nude in a Playboy spread back in their respective youths. But I wouldn't have respected them after I got my jollies and it in no way would have made them any more or less talented. There's no reason why they need to be subjected to humiliation just to satisfy my libido or sell a few extra albums.


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## Capeditiea

Strangely, i have mixed views on this... 

Sex does sell. that is a given... 

but it also will lose focus on the fact of if they are a great practicioner of their art. Some musicians are really good and are overlooked because they are good at their instruments in the mainstream. However some really "sexy" musicians cannot be accurately called musicians... since they are not up to par with their external beauty of their meatspace bodies... 


Really, for me i judge you by how you play the music and not how you look, but i come from a different time...


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## Pat Fairlea

Capeditiea said:


> Strangely, i have mixed views on this...
> 
> Sex does sell. that is a given...
> 
> but it also will lose focus on the fact of if they are a great practicioner of their art. Some musicians are really good and are overlooked because they are good at their instruments in the mainstream. However some really "sexy" musicians cannot be accurately called musicians... since they are not up to par with their external beauty of their meatspace bodies...


"...their meatspace bodies..."
That is simply wonderful! Henceforth I shall think of myself as merely 75kg of temporarily animated meat.

More seriously, there is an obvious conflict between the fact that someone who resembles a badly-packed sack of cabbages (and I'm thinking here specifically of John Ogdon) can play wonderfully well and the commercial need to catch the purchaser's eye and draw them into an attachment to a particular disc/CD. A well-chosen image of a particularly handsome lady or gentleman can do that, and I don't find the use of such images problematic in themselves. Somewhere along the way, though, a line is crossed from using an attractive face to attract attention to using an over-exposed body in a sexualised pose to achieve an altogether more basic response. And when/if a musician resorts to that imagery, or allows themselves to be presented in that way, I shall continue to suspect that both they and the producers of the disc harbour doubts about the musical quality.


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