# Best Messiah??



## karlsoren

I mean the piece of music, not the avatar...lol.
So: I have several recordings, and none of them are bad. The music is so glorious that you can't help but enjoy whatever you hear. 
My favorites:
McCreesh: speedy, clear, great soloists, clear as a bell. 
Pinnock: a wonderful combination of speed and power. 
Andrew Davis: for the big choral sound. And Battle as a soloist--my all-time favorite soprano (I know she was kind fo a pain in the neck to work with, but what a pure and powerful voice.!). 
Your thoughts????


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## Bulldog

I favor the Martin Pearlman version on Telarc which is the most exuberant recording I know; of course, it's period instruments all the way.


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## SixFootScowl

Bulldog said:


> I favor the Martin Pearlman version on Telarc which is the most exuberant recording I know; of course, it's period instruments all the way.


I am floored. I was going to say that all things considered, there is no better Messiah recording than Pearlman, and here you have made it the first recommendation in this thread. Not only is it a wonderful recording (all the right voices etc.) but because there are no top stars on it, it generally floats under the radar and can be picked up used online for peanuts. I have picked up copies for as little as $6 (including shipping) to give to others.



karlsoren said:


> Pinnock: a wonderful combination of speed and power.


Pinnock is a near perfect set, but what kills it for me is that pesky countertenor.  At least they did also have some of the alto parts still sung by a woman.


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## eugeneonagain

Brian of course.


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## Tallisman

Pinnock on Archiv all the way


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## Boston Charlie

Best "Messiah"?

Probably not the "best", but I like Bernstein with the NYPO, Westminster Choir & soloists, un-HIP and all.


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## Pugg

I am with Boston Charlie, I would add Adrian Boult, also very good.


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## david johnson

Best...I do not know. Favorite...Sirs Beecham/Goossens 'updated' version


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## Star

We've got Pinnock. Seems best all round.


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## amfortas

I've got Pinnock, Gardiner, and Colin Davis. Now that it's the holiday season, I'll have to listen more closely to see which I like best.


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## Biffo

Hogwood and Colin Davis are my two favourites


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## SixFootScowl

Biffo said:


> Hogwood and Colin Davis are my two favourites


Yes Hogwood is very good! I don't know the Davis set.


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## karlsoren

Interesting choices. I have the Pearlman and like it, but not like the others. Surprised no one else has mentioned McCreesh. It's right up there with anything I've ever heard. 
Happy listening all.


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## mathisdermaler

I'm a GARDINER GUY


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## mbhaub

Ditto. Wish someone would be brave and use that edition for a nice, modern recording.


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## Manxfeeder

Tallisman said:


> Pinnock on Archiv all the way


Gardiner used to be my go-to version; that's what introduced me to HIP recordings back in the day. But he seems to sacrifice speed for expression. I'd have to say Pinnock manages to be HIP but also leave room for expression.

I also have McCreesh, advertised as a Messiah for the New Millenium, but that version hasn't rung my chimes like it has for a lot of other people.


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## JAS

Some have complained that the chorus is a bit on the small side, but this has always been a version I was very happy with:









(For those who may not be able to see the image, it is a Telarc recording of Robert Shaw and the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and Chamber Chorus)

And a very Merry Christmas to one and all . . .


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## AfterHours




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## DavidA

Pinnock and McCreesh my favourites. 

Beecham for 'now for something completely different.'

Also have Gardiner but on the whole most disappointing.

The choir of Kings College is good with all male voices.


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## larold

There couldn't be a "best" Messiah but most people have a favorite or two. I collected versions going back to the early 1970s and bought a new recording every year at Christmas for many years. Today I listen mainly to Hogwood's period version, which I find the best compromise of good singing via period performance without overdoing the drama and/or tempo. If I wish to hear modern instruments, Marriner's would be my choice.


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## Richard8655

Karl Böhm, Vienna Philharmonic (in my humble opinion).


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## Bulldog

Richard8655 said:


> Karl Böhm, Vienna Philharmonic (in my humble opinion).


That's a great recording of Mozart's Requiem, but it ain't no Messiah.


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## Richard8655

Bulldog said:


> That's a great recording of Mozart's Requiem, but it ain't no Messiah.


Oops. For some reason have them confused. But yes, I don't know that Bohm did the Messiah.


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## KJ von NNJ

I like the Andrew Davis recording with his Toronto forces (EMI). Battle and Quivar are superb. 
Another one I like is Solti on Decca. It's a modern instrument rendering with faster tempos, kind of an alternative for those who wish to avoid period instruments. I have nothing against period instrument recordings and I have heard the Pinnock which I thought was very good.


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## SixFootScowl




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## pcnog11

Pinnock, Richter, Marriner and surprising Rutter and Mackerras


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## pcnog11

For those who like to read review, check this out.....

http://messiah-guide.com


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## steph01

Higginbottom if you like Iestyn Davies.


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## realdealblues

I have over 75 recordings of Messiah...

Colin Davis's 1966 masterpiece is still the one I reach for most.








After that, probably Klemperer and Marriner's 1976 recording.


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## wkasimer

realdealblues said:


> I have over 75 recordings of Messiah...
> 
> Colin Davis's 1966 masterpiece is still the one I reach for most.
> View attachment 100360
> 
> 
> After that, probably Klemperer and Marriner's 1976 recording.


I certainly agree about Davis and Marriner, but the Klemperer is one of those recordings that I simply don't "get". It's not so much the slow tempi, but the soloists. The lineup looks great on paper, but none of them have any business singing Handel.


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## Josquin13

Paul McCreesh and the Gabrieli Choir & Consort are easily my first choice in Messiah. Over the years, I've heard some complaints about the Archiv sound quality on the CD release, but it isn't an issue, IMO, on the hybrid SACD release. I would say listeners in general tend to underestimate McCreesh in this oratorio. Personally, I've never heard a better performance of Messiah, though I will say that I didn't get how great this recording is on my first listen. It took several hearings.

Pinnock is a bit more square than McCreesh & not as exciting, but solid and very good. It's a keeper for the gorgeous singing of Arleen Auger.

Hogwood provides an interesting, smaller scaled alternative to both, and is essential, in my view.

John Butt & the Dunedin Consort offer an unusual degree of textural clarity, & they are well worth hearing too.

On modern instruments, I've most liked Sir Neville Marriner's early Argo recording, especially for the singing of Elly Ameling and Gwynne Howell.


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## wkasimer

Josquin13 said:


> Paul McCreesh and the Gabrieli Choir & Consort are easily my first choice in Messiah.


This is one of my favorites, but I find the soloists a little weak, and I always object to the short version of "Why do the nations".

Lately, my "go to" version has actually been Katschner's on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. It's in German (but it's not the Mozart arrangement), which will no doubt rule it out for many people, but it's extraordinarily well sung.


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## realdealblues

wkasimer said:


> I certainly agree about Davis and Marriner, but the Klemperer is one of those recordings that I simply don't "get". It's not so much the slow tempi, but the soloists. The lineup looks great on paper, but none of them have any business singing Handel.


Can't agree there. The soloists are all in excellent form and full of dramatic passion, operatic warmth and full-bodied power. This is the recording that proves that Handel doesn't have to be performed in a cold, clinical, emotionless manner that many seem so fond of with soloists who sing with all the calculated passion of an ice cube.


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## wkasimer

realdealblues said:


> Can't agree there. The soloists are all in excellent form and full of dramatic passion, operatic warmth and full-bodied power. This is the recording that proves that Handel doesn't have to be performed in a cold, clinical, emotionless manner that many seem so fond of with soloists who sing with all the calculated passion of an ice cube.


I agree with your basic point - that Messiah (and Handel and Baroque music in general) need real voices, rather than the sort of small, desiccated things that we too often hear. My favorite recordings tend to be those that feature good solid voices, such as Davis' first recording, Hickox, Beecham's last one, and Karl Richter.

But I think that Klemperer's solo quartet doesn't make a particularly good case, and I don't hear much by way of drama or passion. Hines may have a pretty impressive instrument, but his delivery is stiff; Gedda is completely out of his element, with nasal tone and phonetic English. Grace Hoffman is probably the best of the soloists, but she's not on the same level is a number of other mezzos on other recordings (I'm thinking of Helen Watts, ASvO, and Yvonne Minton, among others. At least Klemperer didn't use a countertenor. And I think that Schwarzkopf sounds utterly wrong singing Handel, with that pinched tone and fussy diction of hers, but I think that she sounds all wrong singing just about anything at all.


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## Star

Fritz Kobus said:


>


Sorry! I found this thin and castrated sounding. Handel should have grandeur and this hasn't


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## Star

Josquin13 said:


> Paul McCreesh and the Gabrieli Choir & Consort are easily my first choice in Messiah. Over the years, I've heard some complaints about the Archiv sound quality on the CD release, but it isn't an issue, IMO, on the hybrid SACD release. I would say listeners in general tend to underestimate McCreesh in this oratorio. Personally, I've never heard a better performance of Messiah, though I will say that I didn't get how great this recording is on my first listen. It took several hearings.
> 
> Pinnock is a bit more square than McCreesh & not as exciting, but solid and very good. It's a keeper for the gorgeous singing of Arleen Auger.
> 
> *Hogwood provides an interesting, smaller scaled alternative to both, and is essential, in my view.
> *
> John Butt & the Dunedin Consort offer an unusual degree of textural clarity, & they are well worth hearing too.
> 
> On modern instruments, I've most liked Sir Neville Marriner's early Argo recording, especially for the singing of Elly Ameling and Gwynne Howell.


For me the only real interest in Hogwood's performance s Emma Kirkby's 'But who may abide'


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## lele23

pcnog11 said:


> Pinnock, Richter, Marriner and surprising Rutter and Mackerras


I like Mackerras too.


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## wkasimer

lele23 said:


> I like Mackerras too.


I assume that you're referring to his first recording, for EMI. He's also recorded the Mozart orchestration twice, once in German, once in English.

The first one is very stylish - I'm just not particularly fond of the male soloists.


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## SixFootScowl

I really like the mezzo on this. She sang in the live Messiah I attended in 2015. 
But I am not sure about this "orchestration":


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> I assume that you're referring to *his first recording, for EMI.* He's also recorded the Mozart orchestration twice, once in German, once in English.
> 
> The first one is very stylish - I'm just not particularly fond of the male soloists.


This was a gro0und breaking recording at the time. Superb mezzo from Baker and fine alto from Esswood.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Pinnock is the clear choice in modern sound, but the absolute best recorded performance is Sir Malcolm Sargent’s 1946 version in the Dutton transfer. Transcendent is the operative word. And the Dutton transfer is excellent.


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## bobleflaneur

wkasimer said:


> Lately, my "go to" version has actually been Katschner's on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. It's in German (but it's not the Mozart arrangement), which will no doubt rule it out for many people, but it's extraordinarily well sung.


Could you point me to this one? I'm not having any luck on either Amazon or MDT.


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## SixFootScowl

There are several German Messiah sets that are not Mozart's arrangement. Very beautiful sung in German.


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## bz3

I like Pinnock and Hogwood. I'm not an expert but I'm trying to get there - I listened to Jacobs a few times this season and I'm familiar with Marriner and one of the German ones (maybe Beecham? not looking at library right now). But beyond that it's just what I've googled so take that for what it's worth.


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## Bulldog

Fritz Kobus said:


>


This is a fine version; what really stands out for me is the singing of mezzo-soprano Clare Wilkinson (a voice from heaven).


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## wkasimer

bobleflaneur said:


> Could you point me to this one? I'm not having any luck on either Amazon or MDT.


Here's a link to Katschner's Messias:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VVSNIO


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> There are several German Messiah sets that are not Mozart's arrangement. Very beautiful sung in German.


Marriner's with Popp and Fassbaender is excellent, as is Richter's German version.


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## SixFootScowl

Star said:


> Sorry! I found this thin and castrated sounding. Handel should have grandeur and this hasn't


I think your finding it thin is partly due to the small size of the choir and orchestra used (just 13 vocalists and a 17-member band).

The Dunedin Consort's web page on this recording says:



> Choosing to perform Handel's Messiah in the version presented at its very first performances, in Dublin (13 April and 3 June, 1742), does not mean that we are presenting the work in its 'best' or indeed in its entirely 'original' form. Handel seems to have composed the oratorio with no specific performers in mind, so he was prepared to adapt it for each production in turn; indeed, around ten versions are discernible in all.


Most fascinating is that last part, "indeed, around ten versions are discernible in all."


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## SixFootScowl

I just got this one today and am on my second time through. Wonderful. Love the contralto, Anne Gjevang.


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## JSBach85

There are too many recordings to say a favourite. Today I only own:

The Sixteen (2nd recording) - Christophers









Dunedin Consort & Players - John Butt









The English Concert & Choir - Trevor Pinnock









I would be interested in the following ones:

Gabrieli Consort & Players - Paul McCreesh
The Academy of Ancient Music - Hogwood
English Baroque Soloists - John Eliot Gardiner
Les Arts Florissants - William Christie
Freiburger Barockorchester - René Jacobs
Les Musiciens du Louvre - Minkowski
Bach Collegium Japan - Suzuki
Taverner Choir & Players - Parrott
I Barocchisti - Fasolis
Concentus Musicus Wien - Harnoncourt


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## Ras

JSBach85 said:


> There are too many recordings to say a favourite. Today I only own:
> 
> The Sixteen (2nd recording) - Christophers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dunedin Consort & Players - John Butt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The English Concert & Choir - Trevor Pinnock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would be interested in the following ones:
> 
> Gabrieli Consort & Players - Paul McCreesh
> The Academy of Ancient Music - Hogwood
> English Baroque Soloists - John Eliot Gardiner
> Les Arts Florissants - William Christie
> Freiburger Barockorchester - René Jacobs
> Les Musiciens du Louvre - Minkowski
> Bach Collegium Japan - Suzuki
> Taverner Choir & Players - Parrott
> I Barocchisti - Fasolis
> Concentus Musicus Wien - Harnoncourt


Another vote from me for Paul McCreesh and John Butt!


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## wkasimer

JSBach85 said:


> I would be interested in the following ones:
> 
> Gabrieli Consort & Players - Paul McCreesh


This is one of the best HIP versions, IMO. The orchestral and choral work is superb, and the soloists reasonably good, if you don't mind smaller voices.



> The Academy of Ancient Music - Hogwood


This one is very popular, but I don't care for children in the chorus, and I'm not a fan of Emma Kirkby.



> English Baroque Soloists - John Eliot Gardiner


This one's kind of neither fish nor fowl. It's technically HIP, but not really HIP enough to satisfy HIP militants. But it's a very, very well sung, central version. It's one of the Messiah recordings that I recommend to people looking for a single recording.



> Les Musiciens du Louvre - Minkowski


Despite a few really stellar singers - Ainsley, Hellekant, and Kozena - this one should be avoided. The choruses are often too fast for comfort, and there are cuts. Some of the other solo singing is pretty terrible, too.

I haven't heard the others recently enough to comment intelligently.


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## SixFootScowl

JSBach85 said:


> The English Concert & Choir - Trevor Pinnock


Pinnock's set is excellent and would be at the top of my list if it were not for that pesky countertenor.


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## hpowders

Best Messiah? Are you kidding? So highly subjective-different voices for different parts; HIP; non-HIP, etc.

My faves are Pinnock and the first Sir Colin Davis.


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## Itullian

hpowders said:


> Best Messiah? Are you kidding? So highly subjective-different voices for different parts; HIP; non-HIP, etc.
> 
> My faves are Pinnock and the first Sir Colin Davis.


Exactly mine too!


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## hpowders

Itullian said:


> Exactly mine too!


Good to know!!! I listen to Messiah all year!!! Great music for me is never only seasonal!!


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## JSBach85

wkasimer said:


> This is one of the best HIP versions, IMO. The orchestral and choral work is superb, and the soloists reasonably good, if you don't mind smaller voices.
> 
> This one is very popular, but I don't care for children in the chorus, and I'm not a fan of Emma Kirkby.
> 
> This one's kind of neither fish nor fowl. It's technically HIP, but not really HIP enough to satisfy HIP militants. But it's a very, very well sung, central version. It's one of the Messiah recordings that I recommend to people looking for a single recording.
> 
> Despite a few really stellar singers - Ainsley, Hellekant, and Kozena - this one should be avoided. The choruses are often too fast for comfort, and there are cuts. Some of the other solo singing is pretty terrible, too.
> 
> I haven't heard the others recently enough to comment intelligently.


Thank you for your feedback. I ordered McCreesh because I have Solomon, Saul and Theodora. McCreesh is therefore one of my favourite conductors for Handel Oratorios. I won't get Minkowski, Harnoncourt and maybe Fasolis since I am more interested in Suzuki, Christie, Parrott, Gardiner, Hogwood and Jacobs. I don't know why nobody mentions the second recording of Christophers, It is a highly acclaimed recording among Handel oratorios experts. Also the vocal cast is among the best I have seen in a Messiah reccording.


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## wkasimer

JSBach85 said:


> I don't know why nobody mentions the second recording of Christophers,


I didn't mention it because I haven't heard it...yet.

Addendum: It's on Spotify, so I'm listening at the moment. And unfortunately, this recording is ruled out by the presence of a pretty dreadful countertenor. I'm generally not a big fan of countertenors in this music, but I can tolerate a good one - which Daniel Taylor isn't. And to be honest, the tenor and bass are no more than adequate.

Addendum 2: Whoops!!! The above refers to Christopher's *third* recording, on the same label as the second (Coro). The second one is indeed superb in all respects; it's hard for me to understand why Christophers and Coro felt the need to record the work again.


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## BachIsBest

I dunno how it hasn't been mentioned (it's somewhat recent I guess) but the one conducted by Stephen Layton with Polyphony is very good. Excellent signing and probbably the most jaw-dropping finale I've ever heard. It does use a non-period ochestra though, which ends up working fine.


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## JSBach85

Does anyone know the historical size of the choir in The Messiah? Is there any information/evidence related to this?

There is a huge difference of choir sizes in lots of performances. I do not have such information but as far as I know, according to the practices of vocal works in baroque era it was not common having large choirs as a general rule for a number of reasons: the audience was not as big as we have nowadays, opera theaters / concert halls were significantly smaller than modern ones so that is evident to think what would be the reason to have a large choir if it was not neccesary at all. I have read several documents about choirs and singers in Leipzig concerning Bach cantatas but currently I am a bit lost concerning Handel performances in London and particularly this oratorio. I guess Messiah was performed using a choir of boys and male as was a fairly common practice for sacred works in baroque era and also I read that "_Handel wrote Messiah for modest vocal and instrumental forces, with optional settings for many of the individual numbers_" but how many singers that could mean?

Thank you in advance.


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## JSBach85

JSBach85 said:


> Does anyone know the historical size of the choir in The Messiah? Is there any information/evidence related to this?
> 
> There is a huge difference of choir sizes in lots of performances. I do not have such information but as far as I know, according to the practices of vocal works in baroque era it was not common having large choirs as a general rule for a number of reasons: the audience was not as big as we have nowadays, opera theaters / concert halls were significantly smaller than modern ones so that is evident to think what would be the reason to have a large choir if it was not neccesary at all. I have read several documents about choirs and singers in Leipzig concerning Bach cantatas but currently I am a bit lost concerning Handel performances in London and particularly this oratorio. I guess Messiah was performed using a choir of boys and male as was a fairly common practice for sacred works in baroque era and also I read that "_Handel wrote Messiah for modest vocal and instrumental forces, with optional settings for many of the individual numbers_" but how many singers that could mean?
> 
> Thank you in advance.


I've just found this information in wikipedia: "..._The 1754 performance at the hospital is the first for which full details of the orchestral and vocal forces survive. The orchestra included fifteen violins, five violas, three cellos, two double-basses, four bassoons, four oboes, two trumpets, two horns and drums. In the chorus of nineteen were six trebles from the Chapel Royal; the remainder, all men, were altos, tenors and basses_." That means that the surviving evidence we have is a performance dating from 1754, before Handel's death but close to when Handel was severely afflicted by the onset of blindness and therefore, turned over the direction of the Messiah hospital performance to his pupil, J.C. Smith.

19 singers seems to be a fairly good number according to baroque performance practices. If we have the evidence, I wonder why there are so many live performances / recordings using larger vocal forces such as more than 50 singers. I suppose these performances are those inherited from the nineteenth century and have little or nothing to do with the intentions of Handel and the way in which it was performed at its premiere in London.


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## SixFootScowl

JSBach85 said:


> I've just found this information in wikipedia: "..._The 1754 performance at the hospital is the first for which full details of the orchestral and vocal forces survive. The orchestra included fifteen violins, five violas, three cellos, two double-basses, four bassoons, four oboes, two trumpets, two horns and drums. In the chorus of nineteen were six trebles from the Chapel Royal; the remainder, all men, were altos, tenors and basses_." That means that the surviving evidence we have is a performance dating from 1754, before Handel's death but close to when Handel was severely afflicted by the onset of blindness and therefore, turned over the direction of the Messiah hospital performance to his pupil, J.C. Smith.
> 
> 19 singers seems to be a fairly good number according to baroque performance practices. If we have the evidence, I wonder why there are so many live performances / recordings using larger vocal forces such as more than 50 singers. I suppose these performances are those inherited from the nineteenth century and have little or nothing to do with the intentions of Handel and the way in which it was performed at its premiere in London.


Well, I would suggest look at the HIP performances, particularly those with original-type instruments, as the place where a smaller size orchestra and Choir are more likely to occur. I also think that the Dunedin Consorts Messiah is a very small ensemble, so much so that I think I recall that the soloists also sing in the choral parts (or was that Harry Chrisopher's Sixteen?).


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## JSBach85

Extracted from my booklet of Dunedin Consort recording, Dublin version 1742:

"_Handel seems to have composed the oratorio with no specific performers in mind, so he was prepared to adapt it for each production in turn; indeed, around ten versions are discernible in all. He certainly made some revisions in Dublin for those sngers who were not of the same calibre as he enjoyed in London, so there has sometimes been a tendency to view this first performing version as critically compromised by supposedly inadequate forces. ... Donald Burrows has suggested that the original chorus probably consisted of no more than *three or four voices to a part*_.

This is consistent with what we know about 1754 hospital version of no more than 19 singers in total. 
I gather from the texts that vocal forces that Handel should have used ranged from 12 to 19 singers. The lack and difficult to find good singers at the first performance, premier, at London and the subsequent adjustments in the following versions, along with the usual practices of the time and the fact that concert halls, churches and opera theatres were significantly smaller than modern ones are enough justifications to know which recordings are correct according to how Messiah may have been performed in 18th century. Therefore, those recordings and performances that use vocal forces greater than 19 singers are proved to be wrong and are probably alligned with 19th century romantic tradition rather than baroque tradition. The Messiah oratorio according to the correct performance practice, is a must to be performed with no more than 19 singers and instrumental forces accordingly.


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## JSBach85

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well, I would suggest look at the HIP performances, particularly those with original-type instruments, as the place where a smaller size orchestra and Choir are more likely to occur. I also think that the Dunedin Consorts Messiah is a very small ensemble, so much so that I think I recall that the soloists also sing in the choral parts (or was that Harry Chrisopher's Sixteen?).


Looking at the recordings I currently own:

Christophers / The Sixteen (CORO recording): 19 singers. Seems to be balanced according to period practices.
Pinnock / The English Concert: 32 singers. Seems to be oversized but we should consider how those singers are distributed.
Butt / Dunedin Consort: 13 singers, around three voices to a part. Correct if Donald Burrows is proved to be right in his statement.

I ordered McCreesh, Parrott, Gardiner and Hogwood, this one is the Foundling Hospital Version 1754. I will discuss about them further.


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## Biffo

JSBach85 said:


> Extracted from my booklet of Dunedin Consort recording, Dublin version 1742:
> 
> "_Handel seems to have composed the oratorio with no specific performers in mind, so he was prepared to adapt it for each production in turn; indeed, around ten versions are discernible in all. He certainly made some revisions in Dublin for those sngers who were not of the same calibre as he enjoyed in London, so there has sometimes been a tendency to view this first performing version as critically compromised by supposedly inadequate forces. ... Donald Burrows has suggested that the original chorus probably consisted of no more than *three or four voices to a part*_.
> 
> This is consistent with what we know about 1754 hospital version of no more than 19 singers in total.
> I gather from the texts that vocal forces that Handel should have used ranged from 12 to 19 singers. The lack and difficult to find good singers at the first performance, premier, at London and the subsequent adjustments in the following versions, along with the usual practices of the time and the fact that concert halls, churches and opera theatres were significantly smaller than modern ones are enough justifications to know which recordings are correct according to how Messiah may have been performed in 18th century. Therefore, those recordings and performances that use vocal forces greater than 19 singers are proved to be wrong and are probably alligned with 19th century romantic tradition rather than baroque tradition. The Messiah oratorio according to the correct performance practice, is a must to be performed with no more than 19 singers and instrumental forces accordingly.


For the Dublin performance Handel used the choirs of the city's two cathedrals giving him a chorus of 16 men and 16 boys. Some of the solos were sung by male choristers. I have no information on the strength of the chorus for the first London performance at the Covent Garden Theatre but presumably it used theatrical singers.

For the Foundling Hospital performances Handel used the choir of the Chapel Royal - 13 men and 4 (possibly 6) boys. According to the notes for the Hogwood set 'in the choruses they would have been joined by the 5 soloists'.

The number 19 is not set in stone


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## SixFootScowl

JSBach85 said:


> Looking at the recordings I currently own:
> 
> Christophers / The Sixteen (CORO recording): 19 singers. Seems to be balanced according to period practices.
> Pinnock / The English Concert: 32 singers. Seems to be oversized but we should consider how those singers are distributed.
> Butt / Dunedin Consort: 13 singers, around three voices to a part. Correct if Donald Burrows is proved to be right in his statement.
> 
> I ordered McCreesh, Parrott, Gardiner and Hogwood, this one is the Foundling Hospital Version 1754. I will discuss about them further.


Did you check out Higgenbottom's recording? It is all male including boy trebels. A fine recording if one can handle countertenors and it is interesting to hear Rejoice by a tenor. I suspect Higgenbottom is a smaller ensemble too.


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## Biffo

The Wikipedia article on Messiah also contains this -

'In the 1860s and 1870s ever larger forces were assembled. Bernard Shaw, in his role as a music critic, commented, "The stale wonderment which the great chorus never fails to elicit has already been exhausted";[82] he later wrote, "Why, instead of wasting huge sums on the multitudinous dullness of a Handel Festival does not somebody set up a thoroughly rehearsed and exhaustively studied performance of the Messiah in St James's Hall with a chorus of twenty capable artists? Most of us would be glad to hear the work seriously performed once before we die." '


----------



## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> Well, I would suggest look at the HIP performances, particularly those with original-type instruments, as the place where a smaller size orchestra and Choir are more likely to occur. I also think that the Dunedin Consorts Messiah is a very small ensemble, so much so that I think I recall that the soloists also sing in the choral parts (or was that Harry Chrisopher's Sixteen?).


I'm not sure, but back in the LP days there was a recording on the Sine Qua Non label, with the Handel and Haydn Society, conducted by Thomas Dunn, on which the soloists sang in the chorus as well. It was a very good recording - I wish that someone would reissue it.


----------



## SixFootScowl

What about Westenburg's Messiah. According to ArkivMusic,



> Westenberg limits his chorus to the size of Handel's 29 and his orchestra comparably.


Note: this one has singing that is highly ornamented.


----------



## JSBach85

Biffo said:


> For the Dublin performance Handel used the choirs of the city's two cathedrals giving him a chorus of 16 men and 16 boys. Some of the solos were sung by male choristers. I have no information on the strength of the chorus for the first London performance at the Covent Garden Theatre but presumably it used theatrical singers.
> 
> For the Foundling Hospital performances Handel used the choir of the Chapel Royal - 13 men and 4 (possibly 6) boys. According to the notes for the Hogwood set 'in the choruses they would have been joined by the 5 soloists'.
> 
> The number 19 is not set in stone


Thank you for the information. It seems that the premiere of Dublin is well documented (even with the names of those who formed the choir), the numbers you are giving are correct. There is no evidence that any other further version used more than 32 singers.

According to Gramophone, another aspect to discuss about how Messiah should be performed and which criteria should be follow to masters Handel's Messiah is the balance between instrumental and vocal forces: "_For the majority of Messiah performances one hears today, the choir is about twice the size of the orchestra, in Handel's own performances the orchestra was marginally larger than the choir_". Therefore, most recordings and performances fail balancing instruments and voices since Messiah was written/composed to use more instruments than voices.

I've got Parrott recording recently:










After a first listening seems to not being a reference recording but Parrott uses around 22 singers that is a reasonable choir size according to the surviving documentation; however, I am waiting to get all recordings I mentioned previously to discuss them together.


----------



## SixFootScowl

JSBach85 said:


> ...I am waiting to get all recordings I mentioned previously to discuss them together.


Have you checked out this site? http://messiah-guide.com/

Has info on just about every recording of Messiah: http://messiah-guide.com/recordings.html


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## JSBach85

Fritz Kobus said:


> Have you checked out this site? http://messiah-guide.com/
> 
> Has info on just about every recording of Messiah: http://messiah-guide.com/recordings.html


I didn't know about this website. Thank you. Suzuki gets 9/10 and I am fairly confident that is one of the best recordings due to the polished conducting that Suzuki brings to Bach and Mozart recordings, I will get Suzuki soon I hope. I also agree with Parrott recording rating since is becoming one of my favourites. I am also waiting for Hogwood in Decca/L'Oiseau-lyre that will arrive next week. I may give an opportunity to Fasolis as well.


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## Captainnumber36

I just put on the Andrew Davis version b/c of this thread, thanks!


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## PMarlowe

I've listened to a few recordings on Spotify and am partial to the McCreesh version (Archiv). I listened to another, I don't recall which one off-hand, and it sounded to me like a children's choir was used in the some of the movements. I compared it with the McCreesh, which seemed to utilize adult female voices instead. I must admit that I do not like the sound of singing children (and therefore prefer the McCreesh approach). Am I mistaken about the two approaches?

*EDIT - Now reading through the above comments, and it seems there indeed are a lot of variations in this regard.*


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## wkasimer

PMarlowe said:


> I've listened to a few recordings on Spotify and am partial to the McCreesh version (Archiv). I listened to another, I don't recall which one off-hand, and it sounded to me like a children's choir was used in the some of the movements. I compared it with the McCreesh, which seemed to utilize adult female voices instead. I must admit that I do not like the sound of singing children (and therefore prefer the McCreesh approach). Am I mistaken about the two approaches?
> 
> *EDIT - Now reading through the above comments, and it seems there indeed are a lot of variations in this regard.*


You were probably listening to the Hogwood recording on L'Oiseau Lyre/Decca. It's a very popular recording, but I don't care for it either, for the same reason.


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## PMarlowe

wkasimer said:


> You were probably listening to the Hogwood recording on L'Oiseau Lyre/Decca. It's a very popular recording, but I don't care for it either, for the same reason.


I checked my Spotify history, and you are correct.


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## fjf

There are many, many great recordings. I like specially this one:


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## Pugg

Captainnumber36 said:


> I just put on the Andrew Davis version b/c of this thread, thanks!


Great voices, and ever greater rich sound. :cheers:


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## SixFootScowl

Bulldog said:


> I favor the Martin Pearlman version on Telarc which is the most exuberant recording I know; of course, it's period instruments all the way.


I'll say it again because I just went through about six Messiah recordings in my collection and for an all around great Messiah recording, this one is pretty hard to beat:


----------



## Citroen2CV




----------



## Jacck

Collegium 1704 (Václav Luks)


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## DavidA

Two really good period instrument versions:
Pinnock and NcCreesh
Also have affection for Mackerrass' version with Janet Baker, alas not available.
For indulgence tey Beecham


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## Hermastersvoice

The diction of the choir on the Beecham recording always brings a smile to my face. Listen to “and his NAME shall be called...”Here’s a choir who know how to enunciate the English language and get it into the grooves, or whatever a recording does nowadays. They are closely followed by the Philharmonia Chorus - under William Pitz, of course. It sounds so utterly right. Is Klemperer ponderous? Perhaps, but there’s a clear sense of rhythm throughout; something he has in common with Beecham. Karl Richter’s second recording has a wonderful soloists but the choir don’t quite make it to the end of the Hallelujah chorus, like Gardiner they don’t get to convey the exuberance. They are not the only ones, many choirs fatigue at this point.


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## larold

For years I bought a new Messiah around Christmas time and probably owned about 50 different versions. The only one left in my collection is Hogwood's. I suppose that must be the one I've chosen as a favorite though I also very much enjoyed Marriner's. 

Higginbottam's has a lot going for it too though some may not like the boy trebles. The chorus "Let all the angels of God worship Him" is very special under his forces.

There are a few I didn't enjoy -- Boult comes to mind and surely Beecham's noisy Messiah.


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## starthrower

It's Christmas time again! I read through this thread last night. Many good suggestions. I can't get used to the shorter phrases in the overture on the HIP versions so I bought Beecham's late 50s recording. Colin Davis 1966 sounds thick as molasses, and Klempy is kinda slow but I'll be listening to that one too. I ordered his Sacred Choral Works box. Happy Holidays!










Got this for 3 dollars.


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## SixFootScowl

This is my absolute favorite Messiah, and that may be partly because I am partial to altos and this one has what IMO is an excellent alto, but I really have to have all four parts work for me. 









Speaking of Messiah, I just went to a live performance last night. Three of the singers were okay, but the bass is awesome: Philippe Sly:


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## starthrower

I'll give that Solti a listen, Fritz. If I can pick up another one or two used CDs for a few dollars I'm gonna grab them. I heard about an hour each of Beecham, and Marriner's 1976 version on the radio last night. I enjoyed both. I'm not as fussy about all the vocal details as I am not an expert on this stuff. I listened to Shaw's Telarc CD for 30 years and I always enjoyed that one. I know he recorded an earlier one on RCA which I haven't heard.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn




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## starthrower

I can't find too many tenors I like. The ensemble playing on the Hogwood, and Pinnock is superb but those tenors sound stogy and old fashioned. The tenor on the Hogwood rolls his R's. Didn't like Solti's tenor either.


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## Woodduck

DavidA said:


> Also have affection for Mackerrass' version with Janet Baker, alas not available.


The Mackerras _Messiah_ is available used. I recommend it as an excellent compromise between intimate (or emaciated, depending on your viewpoint) HIP approaches and the traditional grandeur we used to call "Handelian." Janet Baker and Elizabeth Harwood are splendid, the other soloists are fine, there's quite a bit of effective ornamentation of the vocal lines, Mackerras conducts with both vigor and gravity, and the medium-sized orchestra gives us the tangy bite of the double reed doublings (as opposed to the plain string sound) which Handel used when the instruments were available.

I'll take this over any of the more recent recordings I've heard, for both its superb, full-blooded singing and its authentic grandeur. Just compare the strength and sternness of the overture under Mackerras with the clipped and flippant articulation our HIP specialists like to subject it to; not pompous or heavy, but appropriately serious. It's _Messiah,_ after all, not "Acis and Galatea."


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## WildThing

Woodduck said:


> The Mackerras _Messiah_ is available used.


It also appears to be available in digital format for those not opposed:

Mackerras Messiah

I haven't heard it myself, but am now very interested in checking it out based on the recommendations. My favorite versions for a while have been Colin Davis and Martin Pearlman for HIP.


----------



## DavidA

WildThing said:


> It also appears to be available in digital format for those not opposed:
> 
> Mackerras Messiah
> 
> I haven't heard it myself, but am now very interested in checking it out based on the recommendations. My favorite versions for a while have been Colin Davis and Martin Pearlman for HIP.


Mackerras is enjoyable especially for Janet Baker but is a bit dated now. The best performances in my collection:

Pinnock is quite superb although the tenor is a little light

McCreesh a bit more dramatic but he does speed at times. Superb soloists.

Gardiner I find somewhat lacking in spirituality.

There is a fun edition from Kings using all male parts

If you want the full works then Beecham but it is overdone. But I wouldn't miss Vickers singing 'Thou shalt break them!'


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## Bigbang

starthrower said:


> It's Christmas time again! I read through this thread last night. Many good suggestions. I can't get used to the shorter phrases in the overture on the HIP versions so I bought Beecham's late 50s recording. Colin Davis 1966 sounds thick as molasses, and Klempy is kinda slow but I'll be listening to that one too. I ordered his Sacred Choral Works box. Happy Holidays!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Got this for 3 dollars.


Oh yeah...well I got mine for .50 shopping at a thrift store. What is amazing to me is I have managed to get at least 10 plus Messiahs (two are Davis's..I mean might have a backup in case....) for bargain prices but if only I could get that lucky on top drawer Bach mass in b minor.


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## SixFootScowl

Woodduck said:


> The Mackerras _Messiah_ is available used. I recommend it as an excellent compromise between intimate (or emaciated, depending on your viewpoint) HIP approaches and the traditional grandeur we used to call "Handelian." Janet Baker and Elizabeth Harwood are splendid, the other soloists are fine, there's quite a bit of effective ornamentation of the vocal lines, Mackerras conducts with both vigor and gravity, and the medium-sized orchestra gives us the tangy bite of the double reed doublings (as opposed to the plain string sound) which Handel used when the instruments were available.
> 
> I'll take this over any of the more recent recordings I've heard, for both its superb, full-blooded singing and its authentic grandeur. Just compare the strength and sternness of the overture under Mackerras with the clipped and flippant articulation our HIP specialists like to subject it to; not pompous or heavy, but appropriately serious. It's _Messiah,_ after all, not "Acis and Galatea."


I see there are several Mackerras sets, one in German, one in Mozart's version, and the Baker which I think is a "normal" one sung in English. I say "normal" because there are 4 or 5 versions in English by Handel, including the all-male version, Dublin, and others.

No apparently not German, but titled in German but shows Baker in the cast. That one is off my list when I saw a male alto.


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## wkasimer

I have a couple dozen recordings, at least. Favorites include McCreesh, Pinnock, Davis' first recording, and Cleobury's second.

If you don't mind hearing it in German, there's a splendid recording conducted by Wolfgang Katschner on DHM, and there's also a German version conducted by Marriner that features Lucia Popp and Brigitte Fassbaender.

I'm not a fan of Karl Richter in general, but since great soloists are essential to the work, I often listen to his English version (he did one in German, too) with Helen Donath, Anna Reynolds, Stuart Burrows, and Donald McIntyre.

I keep a lot of recordings around for the presence of certain soloists, like Bryn Terfel, John Shirley-Quirk, Janet Baker, Magdalena Kozena, and Margaret Price.


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> I see there are several Mackerras sets, one in German, one in Mozart's version, and the Baker which I think is a "normal" one sung in English.


The EMI with Baker is the only one that's "normal". Both of the other Mackerras versions use the Mozart arrangement.


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## wkasimer

I'm listening today to Jordi Savall's new recording via Spotify:









It's something of a mixed bag. The playing and choral singing are superb, as is the sound (as far as I can tell via Spotify). The soprano soloist is excellent; the bass is a bit light for my taste but still good. The tenor soloists has a rather unpleasant sound, but others may find that less of a problem. The big negative is, unfortunately, the countertenor used for the alto solos, who sounds like a parody of the species. It's not just the falsetto sound, but his vowels are distorted to a distracting degree. It's one thing to record Messiah with a countertenor; it's quite another to employ one who is decidedly third-rate. "But who may abide" sounds like caricature, and "He was despised" is interminable.


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## SixFootScowl

Here is a pretty good Messiah set, tempo a little on the slow side, but nice singing from all the soloists and if you look below the CD cover image, you'll see two links to 99 cent download big box sets of about 276 and 280 tracks each with this Messiah set (near the end on each one).









*Big Handel Oratorio Box*

*Big Christmas Box*


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## SixFootScowl

Another great Messiah set:


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## Rogerx

View attachment 127641


Not to missed:

Georg Friedrich Händel - Messiah -

_Joan Sutherland - Grace Bumbry - Kenneth McKellar - David Ward

London Symphony Orchestra & Chorus cond Sir Adrian Boult

_


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## SixFootScowl

*You can look up most any Messiah set here*. Includes list of soloists, reviews, variations in releases, and often clips too.


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## Rogerx

Fritz Kobus said:


> *You can look up most any Messiah set here*. Includes list of soloists, reviews, variations in releases, and often clips too.


Holy moly, no ides there where so many.


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## SixFootScowl

Rogerx said:


> Holy moly, no ides there where so many.


And the author of that site must have them all!

Check out the main page too: http://www.messiah-guide.com/


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> Check out the main page too: http://www.messiah-guide.com/


Those recommendations are excellent, although I can't help but express mystification about the inclusion of the Klemperer recording, which is pretty dreadful - the soloists are completely out of their element.


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## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> Those recommendations are excellent, although I can't help but express mystification about the inclusion of the Klemperer recording, which is pretty dreadful - the soloists are completely out of their element.


That Klemperer is in the list is just because they are all there, but why does it get 9/10 rating?

I saw one that had no vocalists, just the music.


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## starthrower

I'm ending up with the Klemperer by default. I ordered the Sacred Choral set for the Beethoven and Bach.


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> That Klemperer is in the list is just because they are all there, but why does it get 9/10 rating?


My mystification was related to the placement of Klemperer on the top 10 recordings list.


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## Hermastersvoice

Why does Klemperer end up in the Top 10? I think it has to do with rhythm, the pulse is unfailing in that recording. Also, the Philharmonia Choir sing wonderfully. I previously pointed out that the Philharmonia Choir doesn’t tire, not even in the Hallelujah chorus when even Gardiner’s don’t have the stamina. With regards to the soloists much depends on the tenor; a Messiah make or break with the initial proclamation of the good news: “Comfort ye, my people”. Handel may not be his core repertoire but Gedda is superb in declamation. In contrast listen to the catastrophic opening of McCreesh - does this tenor know what he is doing with those embellishments? The whole thing meanders. Schwarzkopf may not be the paragon of a style but at least she has got the fire for Thou Shalt Break Them. Yes, I would pick Somary and others, but Klemperer has got something to say - which is more than you can say about most of the competition,


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## Bulldog

I've likely mentioned this before - my favorite is Boston Baroque on Telarc (a hard-hitting interpretation).


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## SixFootScowl

Bulldog said:


> I've likely mentioned this before - my favorite is Boston Baroque on Telarc (a hard-hitting interpretation).


Yes, that is one of the best Messiah sets out there and the one I like to get for gifts. It is available at low cost too. 
*Here it is in my earlier post.*


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## SixFootScowl

I have been wanting this one but am not willing to pay the going prices, but the cast looks very interesting.









EDIT: Oh ha ha, the joke's on me. :lol: I decided to root around in my Messiah folder to try a couple other sets and found I already have this one! Looks like I must have found it as a download or something as it is all one folder and a CD set would be two folders.


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## Woodduck

Differing opinions have made me curious about Klemperer's _Messiah._ Listening to YouTube, I have to say that his yoke doesn't sound easy, nor his burden light. The long Romantic phrasing and granitic strength appropriate in the Brahms Requiem (in which I find Klemperer still unsurpassed) tend to crush the air out of Handel. The uninflected articulation with which Baroque music was played in pre-HIP days can sound brutal and even shocking if you haven't heard it for a while, and as I listen to this I'm carried back fifty years to the _Messiah _performances of my college years in which we were still using the fattened-up edition of Ebenezer Prout. Back then, the question of how Handel expected his music to sound was only beginning to strike some of us as important.

Certainly parts of the oratorio can take this approach better than others; the parts that are supposed to sound grand do, indeed, sound grand, if a little rigid. I've had my reservations about some of the emaciated, rushed, flippant Baroque styling which has often drained the majesty and gravity out of works like _Messiah_ under the pretense of authenticity, and a pachydermal performance like this might provide a reminder that there are values in the music we may have lost sight of.


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## SixFootScowl

Rogerx said:


> View attachment 127641
> 
> 
> Not to missed:
> 
> Georg Friedrich Händel - Messiah -
> 
> _Joan Sutherland - Grace Bumbry - Kenneth McKellar - David Ward
> 
> London Symphony Orchestra & Chorus cond Sir Adrian Boult
> 
> _


Ok, so I have Sutherland but a different one:


----------



## Rogerx

Fritz Kobus said:


> Ok, so I have Sutherland but a different one:


Me too, only the original cover


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## SixFootScowl

Rogerx said:


> Me too, only the original cover


I take it that between the two you like the Boult set better.

EDIT: I'll keep Boult on my list but is a bit expensivish for now. Oh, for others, beware there are some cheap Messiah sets of Boult but instead of LSO it is LPO and those, after some searching, I found have a different cast of singers--no idea if it is any good.


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## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> Differing opinions have made me curious about Klemperer's _Messiah._ Listening to YouTube, I have to say that his yoke doesn't sound easy, nor his burden light. The long Romantic phrasing and granitic strength appropriate in the Brahms Requiem (in which I find Klemperer still unsurpassed) tend to crush the air out of Handel.


I'm actually less bothered by Klemperer's direction than I am by the solo work. Gedda, in particular, sang a lot of music very well, but he also sang some of it quite poorly, and this Messiah falls into the latter category - his tone is unpleasantly nasal, and his English sounds phonetic.


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## Rogerx

Fritz Kobus said:


> I take it that between the two you like the Boult set better.


Indeed, Boult is somewhat slow but Bumbry is great besides Sutherland.


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## wkasimer

Fritz Kobus said:


> I have been wanting this one but am not willing to pay the going prices, but the cast looks very interesting.


I just listened to a couple of Terfel's solos out of curiosity - and I think that he sounds dreadful. This is his fourth shot at the various solos, and they've gotten progressively worse over time. The first one was on what I believe was his first recording, in his early 20's, for the Sain label:









He's much better on the Chandos recording conducted by Hickox, too.


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## JB Henson

Late in the game but...

Old Reliable: Colin Davis, LSO

For Germanophiles Only: Charles Mackerras, ORF Symphony

High luxury tax: Georg Solti, Chicago Symphony Orchestra

21st Century Hottness: Paul McCreesh, Gabrielli Consort


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## wkasimer

JB Henson said:


> For Germanophiles Only: Charles Mackerras, ORF Symphony


Not just for Germanophiles - also for anyone interested in hearing Mozart's arrangement in the language Mozart intended (Mackerras also made a recording of the Mozart arrangement in English).


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## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> I just listened to a couple of Terfel's solos out of curiosity - and I think that he sounds dreadful. This is his fourth shot at the various solos, and they've gotten progressively worse over time. The first one was on what I believe was his first recording, in his early 20's, for the Sain label:
> 
> View attachment 127681
> 
> 
> He's much better on the Chandos recording conducted by Hickox, too.


Yeah, I wanted the set for Yoncheva and Villazon. It is a nice set, perhaps unique. Maybe I will see what else is available in Messiah with Mormon Tabernacle Choir.


----------



## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> Not just for Germanophiles - also for anyone interested in hearing Mozart's arrangement in the language Mozart intended (Mackerras also made a recording of the Mozart arrangement in English).


I have no such desire, just like I don't want Rimsky's version of Boris Godunov (and even am not so fond of Mussorgsky's revision after the others of the Mighty 5 apparently pressured him to revise it.


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## Josquin13

I haven't bought a new Messiah recording since the Dunedin Consort's on Linn, and before that Paul McCreesh & the Gabrieli Consort's (on hybrid SACD, not the CD version), which, if pressed to pick, is my top favorite Messiah recording. (I have a high regard for McCreesh's abilities as a Handel conductor.)






However, I'm now considering a new purchase: on Nov. 22nd, 2019, Jordi Savall & Le Concert des Nations released a new recording of the Messiah on Alia Vox hybrid SACDs. I haven't listened to it myself yet, but thought I'd mention that the recording can be heard in its entirety on You Tube:






(I'm listening to it right now, and so far, I'm not responding well to the tenor in "Comfort ye My People" and "Ev'ry Valley Shall Be Exalted"...)


----------



## wkasimer

Josquin13 said:


> However, I'm now considering a new purchase: on Nov. 22nd, 2019, Jordi Savall & Le Concert des Nations released a new recording of the Messiah on Alia Vox hybrid SACDs.


I suggest that you listen to "But who may abide" before spending your money on this one....


----------



## Josquin13

That's a good suggestion. I've liked counter tenor Damien Guillon in Bach Cantatas, but on first impression I don't think his sound is an ideal fit for Handel's Messiah. However, I had more trouble with the singing of tenor Nicholas Mulroy in the opening tracks, though maybe his style of singing takes some adjusting to & will grow on me. Most surprisingly, Savall's conducting seems a bit flat & uninspired.


----------



## SixFootScowl

This is a good one. It was my first ever Messiah set, purchased on vinyl around 1985, and since replaced with the CD set.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Josquin13 said:


> I haven't bought a new Messiah recording since the Dunedin Consort's on Linn, and before that Paul McCreesh & the Gabrieli Consort's (on hybrid SACD, not the CD version), which, if pressed to pick, is my top favorite Messiah recording. (I have a high regard for McCreesh's abilities as a Handel conductor.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, I'm now considering a new purchase: on Nov. 22nd, 2019, Jordi Savall & Le Concert des Nations released a new recording of the Messiah on Alia Vox hybrid SACDs. I haven't listened to it myself yet, but thought I'd mention that the recording can be heard in its entirety on You Tube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm listening to it right now, and so far, I'm not responding well to the tenor in "Comfort ye My People" and "Ev'ry Valley Shall Be Exalted"...)


I just found that one in my CD stash of stuff I bought at ridiculously low prices at library sales and threw on a shelf, never bothering to listen to it. Will have to give it a try sometime.


----------



## Woodduck

wkasimer said:


> I'm actually less bothered by Klemperer's direction than I am by the solo work. Gedda, in particular, sang a lot of music very well, but he also sang some of it quite poorly, and this Messiah falls into the latter category - his tone is unpleasantly nasal, and his English sounds phonetic.


Yeah, the soloists are an odd lot. I agree about Gedda. What I heard of jerome Hines sounded reasonable. Grace Hoffman is rather a plain Jane. I don't loathe Schwarzkopf's voice as you do, she's always lively and expressive, and her English is more natural than Gedda's, but this isn't her most natural territory. A peculiar production all round.


----------



## Hermastersvoice

As much as I do like the Klemperer (mainly because he’s got something to say) he must yield to Somary’s soloists, they are sensational; Alexander Young’s declamation of a like not heard ever (perhaps not since Nash anyway), not to mention his beautiful tone and even production. Even Justino Diaz sounds very English - I thought he was Spanish. The ladies, unsurpassed, in my view. They know what this is about.


----------



## Enthusiast

Choosing a best Messiah - even if only from among the pre-HIP or only among the HIP - seems doomed. There are certainly many really good and really different HIP versions - Harnoncourt's, for example, or the much mentioned McCreesh - and I'll go with this one for now:


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## wkasimer

Hermastersvoice said:


> Even Justino Diaz sounds very English - I thought he was Spanish.


He was born in Puerto Rico, so he may have learned English at a young age.


----------



## wkasimer

Woodduck said:


> What I heard of jerome Hines sounded reasonable.


While I like the vocal weight that he provides, the delivery is stiff and stentorian. Having imprinted on John Shirley-Quirk 50 years ago, it's hard for me to listen to Hines.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Fritz Kobus said:


> Ok, so I have Sutherland but a different one:


Are my ears working correctly? I thought I hear a boy singing the recitative, "There were shepherds abiding in the field..." Anyway, it is quite a good Messiah set.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Josquin13 said:


> I haven't bought a new Messiah recording since the Dunedin Consort's on Linn, and before that Paul McCreesh & the Gabrieli Consort's (on hybrid SACD, not the CD version), which, if pressed to pick, is my top favorite Messiah recording. (I have a high regard for McCreesh's abilities as a Handel conductor.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, I'm now considering a new purchase: on Nov. 22nd, 2019, Jordi Savall & Le Concert des Nations released a new recording of the Messiah on Alia Vox hybrid SACDs. I haven't listened to it myself yet, but thought I'd mention that the recording can be heard in its entirety on You Tube:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I'm listening to it right now, and so far, I'm not responding well to the tenor in "Comfort ye My People" and "Ev'ry Valley Shall Be Exalted"...)


Listening to it now and liking it a lot. The Tenor seems fine to me. A heavier voice, not nasal, better for my ears.


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## SixFootScowl

I don't guess there really is a "best" Messiah set. However, I just ordered this one. Seems one can NEVER have enough Messiah sets. Review and clips here: http://messiah-guide.com/graden.html


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## Drew Dent

I've been looking for an ideal version of this, myself. Reading through the thread, I'm mostly getting the idea that maybe Pinnock or McCreesh are the two best


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## consuono

Drew Dent said:


> I've been looking for an ideal version of this, myself. Reading through the thread, I'm mostly getting the idea that maybe Pinnock or McCreesh are the two best


It's going to be unpopular to say, but my favorite recording is the German language one conducted by Karl Richter. It may still be available from DG, I don't know. If you're a HIP enthusiast though it obviously won't be your cup of tea. I think it's luminous.


----------



## SixFootScowl

consuono said:


> It's going to be unpopular to say, but my favorite recording is the German language one conducted by Karl Richter. It may still be available from DG, I don't know. If you're a HIP enthusiast though it obviously won't be your cup of tea. I think it's luminous.


One must be careful getting a sung-in-German Messiah set as Mozart's re-orchestration of it is also sung in German. Depending if you want the Handel version or Mozart's can make a difference.


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## SixFootScowl

Drew Dent said:


> I've been looking for an ideal version of this, myself. Reading through the thread, I'm mostly getting the idea that maybe Pinnock or McCreesh are the two best


You may like to browse this site. I think this guy covers every Messiah set out there and then some. Just click on Recordings in the left column. He lists and reviews about 280 different Messiah Recordings! Includes year released, conductor, orchestra, singers names, label, etc. (Nice and easy to screen out those pesky counter tenors as he gives voice type too.)
http://messiah-guide.com/

I'll give you a can't miss, very good Messiah, available for cheap:


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## wkasimer

SixFootScowl said:


> One must be careful getting a sung-in-German Messiah set as Mozart's re-orchestration of it is also sung in German. Depending if you want the Handel version or Mozart's can make a difference.


If I'm remembering correctly, Richter's is the original Handel, just sung in German, not the Mozart arrangement. Richter also recorded an excellent version in English, with stellar group of soloists.


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## consuono

wkasimer said:


> If I'm remembering correctly, Richter's is the original Handel, just sung in German, not the Mozart arrangement. Richter also recorded an excellent version in English, with stellar group of soloists.


That is correct.


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## Drew Dent

SixFootScowl said:


> You may like to browse this site. I think this guy covers every Messiah set out there and then some. Just click on Recordings in the left column. He lists and reviews about 280 different Messiah Recordings! Includes year released, conductor, orchestra, singers names, label, etc. (Nice and easy to screen out those pesky counter tenors as he gives voice type too.)
> http://messiah-guide.com/
> 
> I'll give you a can't miss, very good Messiah, available for cheap:


Ah yes, I read good things about Martin Pearlman's version, too  Another one that I'll definitely take into consideration.


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## Bigbang

Drew Dent said:


> Ah yes, I read good things about Martin Pearlman's version, too  Another one that I'll definitely take into consideration.


I happen to own the Perlman and Pinnock version. As I mentioned on your other thread, The Messiah is a seasonal buy and then dumped into the donations site. I have bought 10 plus--all big names for nothing, easy to get but Bach Mass in B Minor is hard to come by like this, got Richter and Scherier. It comes down to the singing and everyone is hearing something different that tickles their funny bone. It does not matter what you get if it is good except some old versions are too heavy laden and so if it drags then it is what it is.


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## flamencosketches

Bump. I ended up getting the Pearlman/Boston which a lot of people seem to really like. I concur that it's great. The playing and singing I can only describe as warm, full and rich, things I imagine you don't always get with HIP recordings. I have a newfound love for Messiah. I hadn't owned a copy of it before just recently. I'm considering supplementing with more recordings, just because they're so cheap. I'm looking at Ormandy, which looks like the polar opposite of HIP, as well as Pinnock, which seems to be the "middle of the road" period performance (unlike Hogwood, who uses a children's choir, or Gardiner who some deride as too fast or soulless—though I don't hear it that way). But there are so many out there! Colin Davis on Philips looks good too.

Who's listening to Messiah lately? I know it's more of a Christmas piece, but I've been enjoying it a lot nonetheless.


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## SyphiliSSchubert

Gardiner all the way!


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## Rogerx

SyphiliSSchubert said:


> Gardiner all the way!


Did you try any other?


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## SyphiliSSchubert

Rogerx said:


> Did you try any other?


I am a fan of Masaaki Suzuki for Bach, but did not like either his Handel or his Beethoven. He only performed a couple of works by either, as far as I know anyway.
I did not like Pinnock's, but I admire him as an important musician for the HIP movement.
I don't think McCreesh's is accurate, and he tries too hard to prove he is right about things that seem to be only in his head, and not the composer's view, and tries to say the composer intended them. His Bach's SMP is an example of this.
I'll try the Pearlman version, though.


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## NLAdriaan

The one that still does it for me is Harnoncourt in 1982 with his Concentus musicus Wien and the Swedish chamber choir with chorus master Eric Ericson. I purchased Pinnock recently, because of the high acclaim and I prefer Pinnock in many other recordings. But Harnoncourt remains my first choice.


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## doors1991

My favourites :

Stephen Layton (2009)
Hogwood (1980)
Colin Davis (1966)
John Butt (2006)
Pearlman (1992)
Harry Christophers (2008)
Richard Hickox (1991)
Masaaki Suzuki (1996)
Marriner (1976)
Sargent (1959)
Parrott (1989)
Stephen Cleobury (1994)
Fasolis (2000)
John Rutter (2008)
Otto Klemperer (1964)
Pinnock (1988)
Rene Jacobs (2006)
William Christie (1993)
John Eliot Gardiner (1982)
Georg Solti (1985)
Robert Shaw (1966)
Paul McCreesh (1997)
Karl Richter (1972)
Mackerras (1967)


Didn't like :

Katschner (2004)
Mackerras (1974)
Marriner (1984)
Marriner (1992)
Andrew Davis (2016)
Andrew Davis (1987)
David Willcocks (1973)
Harnoncourt (1982)
Robert Shaw (1984)
Beecham (1959)
Hermann Scherchen (1959)
Richard Westenburg (1981)
Harnoncourt (2004)


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## wkasimer

doors1991 said:


> Didn't like :
> 
> Katschner (2004)


Other than the language, what didn't you like about this? It's one of my favorites.


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## doors1991

Only the language,the performance and sound are very good,but i don't like messiah in german.


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## adriesba

I like Marriner's 1976 recording.


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## SixFootScowl

adriesba said:


> I like Marriner's 1976 recording.


There are several versions of Messiah and this one, as I recall, is not the version that most people are familiar with, but it is a wonderful recording and I have it.


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## ORigel

I have the recording by Trevor Pinnock. It's nearly perfect.


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## Guest002

Can't think of a better one, and I've got dozens.
Stephen Layton, Britten Sinfonia, Polyphony and Julia Doyle (soprano), Iestyn Davies (countertenor), Allan Clayton (tenor), Andrew Foster-Williams (bass)


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## BachIsBest

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> View attachment 145819
> 
> 
> Can't think of a better one, and I've got dozens.
> Stephen Layton, Britten Sinfonia, Polyphony and Julia Doyle (soprano), Iestyn Davies (countertenor), Allan Clayton (tenor), Andrew Foster-Williams (bass)


I completely agree; the finale especially is simply unbelievable but the whole thing is fantastic. It is one of my most fervent wishes that Stephen Layton will one day record the St. Mathew Passion.


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## adriesba

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> View attachment 145819
> 
> 
> Can't think of a better one, and I've got dozens.
> Stephen Layton, Britten Sinfonia, Polyphony and Julia Doyle (soprano), Iestyn Davies (countertenor), Allan Clayton (tenor), Andrew Foster-Williams (bass)


Better? - One without a countertenor!


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> Better? - One without a countertenor!


At least Davies is a good one!


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## Guest002

adriesba said:


> Better? - One without a countertenor!


I grew up singing in Cathedral choirs... Countertenors are not a problem in this direction!

Oh, also. Britten, Midsummer Night's Dream... also countertenors are not a problem in this direction!!


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## adriesba

wkasimer said:


> At least Davies is a good one!





AbsolutelyBaching said:


> I grew up singing in Cathedral choirs... Countertenors are not a problem in this direction!
> 
> Oh, also. Britten, Midsummer Night's Dream... also countertenors are not a problem in this direction!!


But no countertenor can compare to a good contralto!


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## Guest002

adriesba said:


> But no countertenor can compare to a good contralto!


Horses for courses. I wouldn't want a countertenor singing 'Phaedra' either!
But in the context of quasi-liturgical singing with modest forces, I have no strong objection to champagne. Or countertenors... (Sorry, Lenny snuck in there...)


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## SixFootScowl

Well as much as I am not a fan of countertenors, Handel did mean for them to sing in some of the Messiah performances, and in fact, had one all-male performance where I think the soprano was sung by boys. Oh, well I don't know that they were countertenors in his day but rather men who were snipped at an early age, which would probably be a bit different in vocal quality?


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## JEdwards

SixFootScowl said:


> Well as much as I am not a fan of countertenors, Handel did mean for them to sing in some of the Messiah performances, and in fact, had one all-male performance where I think the soprano was sung by boys. Oh, well I don't know that they were countertenors in his day but rather men who were snipped at an early age, which would probably be a bit different in vocal quality?


Ouch! So much for HIP!

FWIW: Handel's "Messiah" by Layton/Polyphony/Hyperion is listed on amazon today for less than 20 bucks. Merry "Messiah"!


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## BachIsBest

JEdwards said:


> Ouch! So much for HIP!
> 
> FWIW: Handel's "Messiah" by Layton/Polyphony/Hyperion is listed on amazon today for less than 20 bucks. Merry "Messiah"!


To be clear, it's not really a HIP recording. The choir is mid-sized rather than small and modern instruments are used.


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## Allegro Con Brio

Call me hopelessly anachronistic, but I find the infamous 1958 Beecham to be a riotous carnival of fun that properly blows the cobwebs off the old warhorse. I also like the first Andrew Davis/Toronto recording, mainly for the quality of soloists.


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## joen_cph

I tend to return to Karl Richter's DG recording, the one in English (he did a German one too). It was also used in an - at least back then - impressive sort of movie-documentary with scenes from people's lives around the planet, that I watched back in the 70s, but some very quick googling doesn't provide info for that film.


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## starthrower

That time of year again already! I'm sticking with my Robert Shaw, and Thomas Beecham.


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## wkasimer

joen_cph said:


> I tend to return to Karl Richter's DG recording, the one in English


Very strong soloists - four excellent and very underrated singers.


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## adriesba

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Call me hopelessly anachronistic, but I find the infamous 1958 Beecham to be a riotous carnival of fun that properly blows the cobwebs off the old warhorse.


You know, I might agree. I've only heard a bit of it and indeed quickly noticed the huge liberties it takes, but nevertheless I found it intriguing. I definitely plan to listen to it more, especially since Jon Vickers is on it.


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## SixFootScowl

My top sets include Westenburg, Pearlman, Bonynge, Solti, and Wilberg. The sung-in-German is fun every now and then too.


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## mparta

This has got to be one of the signal works for "imprinting", in other words, so many of us learned it early from a recording that "sticks"
I only saw one passing mention of the old Haydn and Handel Society recording, widely available because it was a Book of the Month Club choice (for those of us who grew up in the hinterlands, a real life saver). And although I certainly can't remember much about the overall quality of the orchestra and chorus (there may be snippets on YouTube) and I will stand by the soprano, the great Adele Addison, who later recorded this with Bernstein. Kathleen Battle before there was Kathleen Battle. The frisson of her portamento right before "Glory to God"!! I remember. I think Donald Graham may have been the very good bass baritone. Still not reissued, I would buy it.
I do not care for counter tenors in this. I do think Iestyn Davies is a very good singer, but I prefer a good mezzo, unfortunately disagree on Solti's, Gjevang, that actually really puts a dent in my enjoyment of his otherwise very fine version.
I had Klemperer as a kid too, didn't know the difference in terms of soloist style but I remember the big ritardando at the end of For We Like Sheep (I think), which I think I would find amusing now but I liked it then.
Hogwood, pale, English, Gardiner, driven, English. Bleh. McCreesh, English English, pretty damn good but countertenor 
Beecham, hilarious
Davis, Toronto, wow, American soloists who sing the paint off of the cathedral walls!! Florence Quivar one of the great oratorio altos I've ever heard (as the Wood Dove in Gurrelieder with Mehta, oh my god!!!!) then add Battle (when she was Battle, not before when she was Adele Addision), Aler and Ramey. No one even comes close.
But I would like to hear the Pearlman. And I might guess Colin Davis would have the measure of this.
I was just thinking about the Mozart version as I listened to the Bernstein Mozart motets/C minor Mass this morning, that might be worth a rehear, I think the "inauthenticity" bothered me years ago, wouldn't now. That Bernstein Mozart, by the way, has some moments but as good as Auger occasionally is, her tone thins out perilously on high, too much for comfort. She was a British critics' favorite and a great singer, but this is not her moment.
For all the glory, shock and awe for JSBach's counterpoint, is there anything anywhere that matchs the Handel Amen? Nope. That's it, close the book.


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## vtpoet

My top was Pearlman until the Dunedin Consort with John Butt. I think this was just released last year or the year before. Have to say, I've been amazed by the beauty and detail in Butt's performances. And I can't get enough of his soloists.


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## SixFootScowl

vtpoet said:


> My top was Pearlman until the Dunedin Consort with John Butt. I think this was just released last year or the year before. Have to say, I've been amazed by the beauty and detail in Butt's performances. And I can't get enough of his soloists.


I have the John Butt performance from the Dunedin Consort. It is a wonderful recording. I should spin it again. I think it has been out for about 7 or 10 years now.


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## JEdwards

BachIsBest said:


> To be clear, it's not really a HIP recording. The choir is mid-sized rather than small and modern instruments are used.


To be clear, the HIP remark refers to the snippet in the immediately preceding post about boy sopranos, not the LAYTON recording.

Be that as it may, while the LAYTON recording uses modern instruments, it certainly evidences historically informed performance practices throughout. It's a beautiful recording. I'm listening to it now. I highly recommend it!

FWIW: LAYTON/HYPERION/2008 gets a rating of 10/10, and ranks in the top ten of recordings of Handel's "Messiah," at http://www.messiah-guide.com/layton.html. Best regards!


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## flamencosketches

Pearlman/Boston for me, but I want to hear one of the old school ones. I'm really interested in Ormandy/Philadelphia with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, but I may have to check out the Beecham. Plus I do want to hear one or two other HIP ones. Pinnock sounds great.


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## vtpoet

mparta said:


> This has got to be one of the signal works for "imprinting", in other words, so many of us learned it early from a recording that "sticks"


On the topic of imprinting: My first recording of the Messiah was on LP and it might have been Ormandy? I can almost remember what the slip case looked like, shiny blue, and the write up stated that they retained Mozart's orchestration-in parts-just because it was too much of an improvement (they didn't write this) to give up. Ever since, I've always sort of preferred Mozart's re-orchestration.


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## Handelian

vtpoet said:


> On the topic of imprinting: My first recording of the Messiah was on LP and it might have been Ormandy? I can almost remember what the slip case looked like, shiny blue, and the write up stated that they retained Mozart's orchestration-in parts-just because it was too much of an improvement (they didn't write this) to give up. Ever since, I've always sort of preferred Mozart's re-orchestration.


I don't think Handel - who was far from a 'purist' when it came to rescoring and recycling his own works - would have objected to Mozart's work. One problem has been that others, who had only a tiny fraction of Mozart's skill, have a had a go as well, which has led to some pretty awful and inflated versions (filled with 19th century stodge) down the years.


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## Handelian

I try and get a new Messiah for my shelves for Christmas (which does lead to some overcrowding) even though it was first intended as a Lenten / Passion week piece. This year I saw Christie's version on eBay very cheap so I snapped it up. It is certainly one of the best out there (there are so many, who can say which is the best?) with five cracking soloists and a superb choir. Christie is a wonderful Handelian. Sandrine Piau offers the best 'Rejoice Greatly' I have ever heard.


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## wkasimer

mparta said:


> This has got to be one of the signal works for "imprinting", in other words, so many of us learned it early from a recording that "sticks".


I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who imprinted on the first Colin Davis recording. And while I've found better soprano and tenor soloists, I still measure alto and bass soloists against Helen Watts and especially the late John Shirley-Quirk.

A wonderful version that is probably lost forever (except for those who collect LP's) is the first Handel & Haydn recording, conducted by Thomas Dunn. It was issued on LP by Sine Qua Non, but has never been reissued. It was one of the earliest attempts at a small forces Messiah, and featured some exceptional solo work, particularly from tenor George Livings and bass David Evitts. If you see a copy, snap it up.


----------



## Handelian

wkasimer said:


> I'm guessing that I'm not the only one who imprinted on the first Colin Davis recording. And while I've found better soprano and tenor soloists, I still measure alto and bass soloists against Helen Watts and especially the late John Shirley-Quirk.
> 
> A wonderful version that is probably lost forever (except for those who collect LP's) is the first Handel & Haydn recording, conducted by Thomas Dunn. It was issued on LP by Sine Qua Non, but has never been reissued. It was one of the earliest attempts at a small forces Messiah, and featured some exceptional solo work, particularly from tenor George Livings and bass David Evitts. If you see a copy, snap it up.
> 
> View attachment 146102


The first Messiah I bought was the Basil Lam edition conducted by Mackerras. It was considered revolutionary at the time! Even had Paul Esswood a countertenor! But the highlight was Janet Baker singing 'He was despised'


----------



## doors1991

wrong quote,delete pls.


----------



## doors1991

AbsolutelyBaching said:


> View attachment 145819
> 
> 
> Can't think of a better one, and I've got dozens.
> Stephen Layton, Britten Sinfonia, Polyphony and Julia Doyle (soprano), Iestyn Davies (countertenor), Allan Clayton (tenor), Andrew Foster-Williams (bass)


It's one of my favorites,absolutely amazing.


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## Gothos

Only copy of Messiah I own.Opinions?


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## BachIsBest

Gothos said:


> View attachment 146197
> 
> 
> Only copy of Messiah I own.Opinions?


I've never heard it, but Raymond Leppard knew his way around choral works so I doubt you're missing out on much.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Gothos said:


> View attachment 146197
> 
> 
> Only copy of Messiah I own.Opinions?


Nice set. I only see it as a digital set, but the Messiah part was separately released and gets a nice rating here:
messiah-guide.com/leppard.html


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## Marc

Davis 1966, Koopman, Pinnock, Christie and Bernius are probably my favourites. But the competition is stiff.


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## caracalla

Hurwitz did a massive Messiah review a couple of days ago. Just about fell out of my chair when he eventually announced Pinnock as his top pick. Plenty of other HIP recommendations along the way too, including Higginbottom's all-male version with New College, Oxford.

A few months ago, I think it would have been a very different story. His reviews of Baroque and earlier music have changed out of sight.


----------



## Handelian

caracalla said:


> Hurwitz did a massive Messiah review a couple of days ago. Just about fell out of my chair when he eventually announced Pinnock as his top pick. Plenty of other HIP recommendations along the way too, including Higginbottom's all-male version with New College, Oxford.
> 
> A few months ago, I think it would have been a very different story. His reviews of Baroque and earlier music have changed out of sight.


Pinnock would certainly be one of my top picks. It is also one of the topics of the penguin guide and of the gramophone It is a very well sung version with a huge understanding of Handel's medium. von Otter is superb and none of the other soloists let the side down.
I would put McCreesh's version slightly above it perhaps although it is a case of roundabouts and swings.
I find Gardiner's slightly disappointing. The bass is not very good
I have recently acquired Christie's which is absolutely stunning.
Hickox not quite on their level but a sound performance


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## caracalla

Handelian said:


> I have recently acquired Christie's which is absolutely stunning.


Yes, he gave that a strong plug too. And from memory, I think all the others you mention got a look-in.

I keep hearing about Christie's Messiah. I still haven't got round to it it yet, but really must rectify that before much longer.


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

On a Messiah listening kick right now. So many that I had not heard before.

Marriner has been the biggest revelation. It's one of the few where I just want to keep listening. I think Marriner suffers perhaps from having so many recordings that he comes across as "generic baroque guy." But this Messiah is really excellent. Maybe even more recommendable than Pinnock, which though excellent does seem to have a constant lid over the emotions.

I think I slightly prefer this inspired 1976 Marriner to the 1966 Davis. The Davis is very good, but I constantly feel as if everything is missing a bit of spark and energy. Everything is served up kind of pedantically. Meat and potatoes.

Beecham's second recording, from 1947, really impressed me. Right up there with the 1946 Sargent among my favorites regardless of sound quality. I listened again to the 1959 RCA and came away feeling it is overdone. The intended feelings from the work fail to connect, like I'm being pounded over the head.

One recording I did not like very much was Layton, though I can see why others like it. It is absolutely perfect, as if performed by robots. It left me cold. It was like hearing everything I don't like about modern performances encapsulated in a single recording. Everyone is obsessed with being perfect these days. Where is the humanity? Where is the soul? The final movement is at least exciting and worth hearing.

McCreesh - horrendously fast

Mackerras/EMI - loved it. Exhuberant and ornamented. Great solo work.

Need to sample Pearlman/Boston Baroque


----------



## BachIsBest

Brahmsianhorn said:


> One recording I did not like very much was Layton, though I can see why others like it. It is absolutely perfect, as if performed by robots. It left me cold. It was like hearing everything I don't like about modern performances encapsulated in a single recording. Everyone is obsessed with being perfect these days. Where is the humanity? Where is the soul? The final movement is at least exciting and worth hearing.


Hmm. I found it to be the exact opposite. Pretty well everyone is note-perfect nowadays and the reason Layton stands out, in my opinion, is just how excited everyone seems to be to be playing Handel's Messiah. The singers are just so joyous the recording is positively infectious. The final movement is incredible, I don't understand why so many critics admonished Layton's decision to get rid of the accompaniment in the opening; it works well and there are ten million recordings with the accompaniment if you really need it so badly. To be honest, some critics seem to be allergic to people doing different things unless it makes the work cleaner, colder, and, most importantly, more modern.

As for older recordings, Klemperer's is the sort of recording that shouldn't work but does anyway. His Hallelujah chorus is the best I've heard (yes, even better than Beechman).


----------



## Brahmsianhorn

Finished my Messiah survey, though doubtless several of you will now recommend a good dozen or so I skipped over!

The biggest surprise was Butt/Dundein Consort. As some might know, I am rarely wowed by recent recordings, but this one was quite the revelation. Among older versions I also was surprised to take a liking to the Richter, which a few have recommended on this thread.

I did not like Klemperer very much at all. The approach was just too heavy.

Solti was a disappointment. Very clinical and dull. Not what I was expecting even though Solti often sounds that way. With Messiah he almost sounds as if he was simply fulfilling recording duties.

Shaw has excellent singers, but his conducting is painfully metronomic. Ugh.

So here are my 12 "essentials," with several more listed as "further listening:"










*Sir Malcolm Sargent/Huddersfield Ch. Society/Liverpool PO (1946) (Dutton, Documents)*

Sargent presents the Messiah as a grand epic, and the result is compellingly dramatic. Every word and note means something, and the choir in particular displays a unique drive and commitment. The soloists are likewise consummately expressive. The sound quality requires tolerance, but the Dutton remastering is quite exceptional. The greater hurdle for the modern listener might be the slow tempos in some of the choral numbers, but this is an interpretation which above all emphasizes dramatic narrative over deft virtuosity.
*
Neville Marriner/Academy and Ch. of St. Martin-in-the-Fields (1976) (Decca)*

With an excellent mix of spirited charm and warmth, this is a perfect middle ground between old-fashioned and period style. Tempos are well chosen, the singing is uniformly excellent, and the orchestra exudes a unique gracefulness. The sound balance and clarity are superlative.
*
Trevor Pinnock/The English Consort & Ch. (1988) (DG Archiv)*

This justly celebrated period performance conveys an ethereal, eloquent, contained beauty with excellent singing. The pacing is patient, never rushed. Above all there is an inspired commitment that sets it apart. The sound is clear and well balanced.
*
Sir Charles Mackerras/Ambrosian Singers/English CO (1967) (EMI)*

A uniquely joyful, inspired account with excellent soloists, this was an early attempt to incorporate baroque performance practice with modern instruments, including heavy ornamentation which is either stylish or overdone, depending upon one's taste. The choir sings with extraordinary exhuberance.
*
John Butt/Dunedin Consort & Players (2006) (Linn)*

With a dry, minimalist approach set against a reverbert acoustic, this swift period performance is uniquely arresting from beginning to end. Every movement is presented freshly, with great attention to text and meaning. The singers are closely miked, making for an intimate presentation.
*
Sir Thomas Beecham/Royal PO & Ch. (1947) (Biddulph, Classica D'Oro)*

Beecham's second Messiah recording is highly romanticized though not as bombastic as his later famous reorchestrated stereo version. He provides an eloquently firm hand throughout, the chorus is expressive and thrillingly dramatic, and the soloists are of high caliber if overly sentimental by modern standards. The sound quality is of course limited, but not too obtrusively so that the ear adjusts.
*
Sir Colin Davis/London SO & Ch. (1966) (Philips)*

A ground-breaking recording which married baroque sensibility to modern performance style, resulting in a uniquely inspired, committed performance that represents for many the quintessential Messiah interpetation. The singing is beautifully full and expressive even if the effect feels a bit too labored at times. The sound is full and clear.
*
Paul McCreesh/Gabrieli Consort & Players (1997) (DG Archiv)*

A refreshingly bold period instrument version featuring spirited technical brilliance. The execution is faultless, though the interpretation is somewhat chilly and at times unnecessarily fast. The sound is clear and present, accentuating the directness of the performance.
*
Karl Richter/John Alldis Ch./London PO (1972) (DG)*

An expansive, stately modern instrument version that will strike many as anachronistic, but what sets this version apart is the quality of performance from all involved and inspired dedication such that it holds interest throughout. The sound is excellent, opulent and full.
*
Christopher Hogwood/Ch. of Christ Church Cathedral/Academy of Ancient Music (1980) (Decca/L'Oiseau-Lyre)*

This pioneering period performance uses a boy soprano section, which fits with the relatively cool, sedate interpretation. While this approach may not appeal to all, its unassuming simplicity offers a transcendent listening experience. 
*
Andrew Davis/Toronto Sym. & Mendelssohn Ch. (1987) (EMI)*

This is an old-fashioned large-scale Messiah, presented without any hint of idiosyncrasy. Although the choir may not be the last word in dexterity or tonal beauty, they effectively communicate the joy of the work such that with an excellent team of soloists this can be confidently recommended, particularly as an introduction.

*Harry Christophers/The Sixteen Ch. & Orch. (1997) (Hyperion)*

This may not be your typical thrill-a-minute Messiah, but it is an exquisitely noble, small-scaled period performance that lets the music unfold naturally at a relatively patient pace. The sheer beauty and quality of the singing are hard to beat, helped by clear, present sound quality.

Further listening:

Martin Pearlman/Boston Baroque (1992) (Telarc)

Sir Malcolm Sargent/Huddersfield Ch. Society/Liverpool PO (1959) (EMI/CfP)

William Christie/Les Arts Florissants Ch. & Orch. (1993) (Harmonia Mundi)

John Rutter/Cambridge Singers/Royal PO (2007) (Collegium, Hendrickson)

Sir Adrian Boult/London SO & Ch. (1960) (Decca), Edward Higginbottom/Ch. Of New College Oxford/Academy of Ancient Music (2006) (Naxos)

Sir Thomas Beecham/Royal PO & Ch. (arr. Goossens) (1959) (RCA)

Nikolaus Harnoncourt/Stockholm Kammerkoren/Concentus Musicus Wien (1982) (Teldec)

Andrew Parrott/Taverner Ch. & Players (1989) (EMI, Erato)

Stephen Cleobury/Ch. Of King's College/Brandenburg Consort (1993) (Decca/Argo), Sir Charles Mackerras/ORF Ch. & SO (German, arr. Mozart) (1974) (DG Archiv)

Raymond Leppard/English Chamber Orch. & Ch. (1974) (Erato)

Sir Thomas Beecham/BBC SO & Ch. (1927) (Pearl, Grammofono2000)

Masaaki Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan (1996) (BIS)

Stephen Layton/Polyphony/Britten Sinfonia (2008) (Hyperion)

Ton Koopman/The Sixteen/Amsterdam Baroque Orch. (1983) (Erato)

Harry Christophers/The Sixteen Ch. & Orch. (2007) (Coro), John Eliot Gardiner/Monteverdi Ch./English Baroque Soloists (1987) (Philips/Decca)

Wolfgang Katschner/Dresdner Kammerchor/Lautten Compagney (German) (2004) (Deutsche Harmonia Mundi)

Václav Luks/Collegium 1704 Orch. & Ch. (2019) (Accent)

Richard Hickox/Collegium Musicum (1991) (Chandos)

John Alldis/London PO & Ch. (2002) (Sparrow)

Robert Shaw/Robert Shaw Orch. & Ch. (1966) (RCA)

Sir Georg Solti/CSO & Ch. (1985) (Decca)

Eugene Ormandy/Mormon Tabernacle Ch./Philadelphia Orch. (1959) (Sony)

Frieder Bernius/Stuttgart Barockorch. & Kammerch. (2008) (Carus-Verlag)

Otto Klemperer/Philharmonia Ch. & Orch. (1964) (EMI)

Hermann Scherchen/London PO & CH. (1954) (Archipel, Virtuoso)

.


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## starthrower

Robert Shaw on Telarc for me. I have Beecham's later version but it's sounds too old fashioned.


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## SixFootScowl

Recently ordered this one. Should have it soon. *Back Cover Info*.


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## Handelian

starthrower said:


> Robert Shaw on Telarc for me. I have Beecham's later version but it's sounds too old fashioned.


I have it too. Worth keeping for the soloists. It is of course noting that Handel was a great arranger of his own music and ouldn't have turned a hair at Goosen's orchestrations. But Beecham's tempi for the choruses now seem unduly slow.


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## ELbowe

I wasn't aware Jordi Savall had recorded a Messiah and being a big fan I was looking forward to hearing it. I was not impressed in spite of a first class sounding orchestra and chorus, what did me in was the Counter-Tenor Damien Guillon from his first appearance didn't do it for me and in fact turned me off. I am in general in favour of a counter-tenor but not in this case. I played Gardiner, Harry Christophers and they are still unbeatable and on equal footing William Christie... just my humble opinion.


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## sstucky

Mackerras 1966.


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## Handelian

sstucky said:


> Mackerras 1966.


I had that on LP when it was considered quite revolutionary. Janet Baker 'He was despised' amazing. Funny EMI or Warner never issued it on CD


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## musichal

SixFootScowl said:


> I am floored. I was going to say that all things considered, there is no better Messiah recording than Pearlman, and here you have made it the first recommendation in this thread. Not only is it a wonderful recording (all the right voices etc.) but because there are no top stars on it, it generally floats under the radar and can be picked up used online for peanuts. I have picked up copies for as little as $6 (including shipping) to give to others.
> 
> Pinnock is a near perfect set, but what kills it for me is that pesky countertenor.  At least they did also have some of the alto parts still sung by a woman.


Based on this and others' comments, I bought the Pearlman. Couldn't be happier!


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## wkasimer

Re: Mackerras' Messiah:



Handelian said:


> I had that on LP when it was considered quite revolutionary. Janet Baker 'He was despised' amazing. Funny EMI or Warner never issued it on CD


Sure they did:


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## gvn

Question: What is the best recording of *each of Handel's different versions* of the score? (Most recordings, of course, mix & match bits from different versions; I'm asking only about those that keep consistently to a single state of the oratorio.) Among those that I've heard, my own favorites would be:

*Dublin 1742:* perhaps Butt (Linn), although there are several others of similar quality
*Covent Garden 1743:* Marriner (Argo)
*Foundling Hospital 1751:* Higginbottom (Naxos)
*Foundling Hospital 1752 (version 1):* Cleobury (Argo)
*Foundling Hospital 1753:* Parrott (EMI) or Suzuki (BIS)
*Foundling Hospital 1754:* Hogwood (Oiseau-Lyre)

Then there's McGegan (Harmonia Mundi). His main recording is a composite of the usual kind, but at the end of each disc various alternative settings are supplied, which would allow listeners to program several different complete versions (mainly from the 1740s).


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## mparta

ELbowe said:


> I wasn't aware Jordi Savall had recorded a Messiah and being a big fan I was looking forward to hearing it. I was not impressed in spite of a first class sounding orchestra and chorus, what did me in was the Counter-Tenor Damien Guillon from his first appearance didn't do it for me and in fact turned me off. I am in general in favour of a counter-tenor but not in this case. I played Gardiner, Harry Christophers and they are still unbeatable and on equal footing William Christie... just my humble opinion.


Have you heard the (expensive as usual) Bach B minor Mass from Savall? I think it's a big package with CDs and a DVD and I've been thinking about it. The Mass is one of the pieces where I think JEGardiner gets it right, the piece profits from his energy and the brightness of his orchestra and chorus. I'm sure Savall is very different.


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## Allegro Con Brio

I've always seen Messiah as more of an Eastertime work than a Christmas one. I enjoy hearing different recordings of it even if it isn't among my favorite choral works like it is for so many others. I had heard many interesting things about this one from Layton, so I sprung for a FLAC download. I'm glad to say that it's well worth it. There's a fresh sense of drama that really sweeps you along, with very engaging soloists and choir, while avoiding the almost psychotic coldness that can afflict other period performances (ahem, McCreesh, Pinnock). My complaint with all period performances is that the small string band quickly loses my interest with the lack of instrumental color, which is why I usually go for the old-school big-band performances when I really want to immerse myself in the music. The chamber style can quickly become boring for a work that should be an epic drama. Anyone else listening to it this time of year?


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## consuono

^ I listen to selections at least year-round. I think this one may still be my favorite recording:








I agree about most HIP renditions. I don't think this work or Bach's B Minor Mass sound quite right played by some wheezy string sextet.


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## SixFootScowl

consuono said:


> ^ I listen to selections at least year-round. I think this one may still be my favorite recording:
> View attachment 152910
> 
> 
> I agree about most HIP renditions. I don't think this work or Bach's B Minor Mass sound quite right played by some wheezy string sextet.


I have that one (for Janowitz) but had to download three tracks from the Koch set to fill in the three parts missing from the Richter set:

Part III_ Duet_ O Death, where is thy sting
Part III_ But thanks be to God
Part III_ Aria_ If God be for us, who can be against us


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## consuono

SixFootScowl said:


> I have that one (for Janowitz) but had to download three tracks from the Koch set to fill in the three parts missing from the Richter set:
> 
> Part III_ Duet_ O Death, where is thy sting
> Part III_ But thanks be to God
> Part III_ Aria_ If God be for us, who can be against us


Yeah the excisions are definitely a weakness and leave me scratching my head. But still.


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## vincula

I've got a few and agree on Pinnock for a modern version. I find myself listening to this one quite often:

















Regards,

Vincula


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## wkasimer

SixFootScowl said:


> I have that one (for Janowitz) but had to download three tracks from the Koch set to fill in the three parts missing from the Richter set:
> 
> Part III_ Duet_ O Death, where is thy sting
> Part III_ But thanks be to God
> Part III_ Aria_ If God be for us, who can be against us


While it's hard to understand why these would be cut in a studio recording, that's a pretty common cut in live performances.


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## SixFootScowl

wkasimer said:


> While it's hard to understand why these would be cut in a studio recording, that's a pretty common cut in live performances.


Thankfully, it is in every live performance by the University Musical Society, University of Michigan, that I have attended 2013 through 2019.


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## SixFootScowl

Well it is not a recording (or if there is one of it, I want one) but I just watched this today and it is awesome. 
https://www.thetabernaclechoir.org/articles/2021-watch-messiah-beginning-march-26.html


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## ArtMusic

Hard to fault with this:


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## SixFootScowl

Haven't listened to this one in a while. Stumbled across this noteworthy bit:


> Butt bravely resolves to use the same forces Handel had at his disposal in Dublin, which means that the entire oratorio is sung by a dozen singers (with all soloists required to participate in the choruses, as Handel would have expected).


It is the 24th review down this list (just CTRL-f and search Messiah):
https://www.gramophone.co.uk/features/article/the-50-greatest-handel-recordings-2021-update
Excellent recording!


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## Kreisler jr

It's quite hard to ruin that piece. I wish that we got for every other recording of Messiah one of the less well served other oratorios by Handel.


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