# Thoughts on communication...



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I was reading an article in a magazine about how our lifestyles today have led to a decline in the quality of human communication. I reflected on this in relation to this forum, as well as training I have received in communication and also life experience (incl. online).

*So I thought we could make some tips for good communication online, on this forum. *I thought this kind of thread would be a positive after all the bunfights on this forum.* Feel free to add your own tips.* Keep in mind these are not rules or laws, like Terms of Service when you sign up. These are more general, 'handy' things.

*& this is not censorship or thought control*, these kinds of tips do not prevent you from saying your opinion. *You can give the same opinion, but with better delivery*.

*Okay, well I think these are good rules of thumb for answering people who are asking questions on this forum *-

- Try to remain* objective*, eg. avoid making judgements of the question

- *Use a mix of open and closed ended questions if you need to clarify *- eg. 'What kind of music do you like already?' (open - answer could be anything) or 'Since you say you like Classical Era music, then do you like Mozart?' (closed - yes or no answer) which can be followed by an open question 'So which works of Mozart do you like?'

- People generally find *youtube clips*, or *links, quotes, directions to relevant info*(eg. on wikipedia), to be *helpful *(obviously, sometimes they ask this, but I know respondents don't always have time)

- Avoid saying the person should have done some independent work before asking the question

*General online communication strategies that have worked for me* (& I see others). Inevitably, if I don't have these in mind, I may regret what I say (too emotional), then have to go back edit, etc. (so waste time)

- *Good manners overall, good vibe/tone*

- *Not pushing your agenda too much *- I find this with *false dichotomies*, it's annoying as hell (eg. 'So you don't like a certain composer of [insert era], then you obviously don't know/can't appreciate/don't have a clue about music of that era.')

- *Avoid assuming things *about someone that you don't know, then getting emotional about it

-*Try the validation method *- eg. 'Sounds like...' statements, indicating you have absorbed & thought about what the person's saying (& after that give your opinion or advice, etc.).

& so on, *would be good to put on this thread all our handy communication tips, together. *

[Note: I aim to take leave from the general forum for various reasons, but will still do my weekly weekend listening blog. I will peruse this thread, but guys, try keep it constructive! It's over to you.]


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

With regards to folks (especially relatively new members) who might ask for a recommendation or "your favourites" of whatever piece/genre, it might be useful if you approach to answer by pretending you worked at a classical music record shop and responded accordingly to a customer with the same question. Now, you don't need to be some sales executive here, nor be a classical philosopher to come up with convoluted "advice".

We have all been into a classical music shop and we have all asked questions about recorded music. My experience in the past has always been positive. Although I shop online these days, my online queries have also been answered as cordially as they have been in shops. If words are too much "effort" to type, simply paste a link showing the pictures (and or other promotional material such as youtube clips) of the album cover. Simple as that.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Yes, well what I wrote was partly based on communications theory which is applied in practice in many industries, including sales. So it does make sense to answer questions with that kind of approach in mind.

*It does not necessarily mean holding back on your personal opinion.* Eg. in book and cd shops, *I have been told what is the consensus opinion, but also the person's own opinion. *& most of all, I'm interested in opinions based on some level of experience. No use talking to the salesperson about a certain author in a book shop if he has not read that author. I'm not saying everything by the author just something. Basic deduction skills and asking more questions are okay too.

So what I'm saying is that false dichotomy (eg. black versus white, right versus wrong) thinking does not have to get in the way of people answering questions here, both in terms of a more objective viewpoint and also giving their opinion.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

@ Sid, I think a major part of trying to achieve civility--be it on venues such as this--or indeed, in real life as well, is not to demonize those against whom I am arguing, and assume that they have just as much honor and sincerity in making their arguments as I do, and also, as much right to same. In all honesty, in the past I haven't always adhered to these ideals, but as I enter my sixth decade on this planet, I have vowed to be more cognizant of these principles. Another trap which I--and probably a good many others--on this site and others like it have fallen into is personalizing/confusing an issue with the person posing or arguing it. One would think that after 30+ years of my career which involved my having to arrest possibly hundreds of people on warrants etc. etc. I would have learned this lesson quite well, but from time to time I still find myself having to remind myself of it, and not always successfully either!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

samurai said:


> ...Another trap which I--and probably a good many others--on this site and others like it have fallen into is personalizing/confusing an issue with the person posing or arguing it. One would think that after 30+ years of my career which involved my having to arrest possibly hundreds of people on warrants etc. etc. I would have learned this lesson quite well, but from time to time I still find myself having to remind myself of it, and not always successfully either!


I think your old job of law enforcement - as well as things like nursing & doctors working in hospital emergency departments - they have a very tough job & good communication here is crucial. Not only with the members of the public you are dealing with but also with your colleagues. These are not jobs I envy, these are where areas where life/death scenarios are common.

& since you are talking of your former work, that brings in the issue that what I wrote in my OP is based on those kinds of things in my life too, in part. We can bring our life experiences with communication right here online. We can use the same skills online.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SID.
One of the main problems is that a lot of people here, and elsewhere, are talking at you and not conversing with you.
How often do you see a great long statement answered and then then the originator coming back and carrying on as if the other person had said nothing.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Always assume that you do not know everything about any given topic.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

moody said:


> SID.
> One of the main problems is that a lot of people here, and elsewhere, are talking at you and not conversing with you.


Yes, I think listening skills are important. Taking in what the person is saying and waiting/thinking a bit before you reply. In terms of the internet, this can be applied - it's like basic comprehension skills.



> ...
> How often do you see a great long statement answered and then then the originator coming back and carrying on as if the other person had said nothing.


Yes, I have been guilty of that kind of ranting, but now see it as not the best way to do things. Comprehending what people are saying and replying to them after that is better. One cannot reply to every post, there are so many, but one can reply say to the gist of a person's post or the vibe/gist of a whole lot of posts with similar opinions/takes on the issue at hand.



Polednice said:


> Always assume that you do not know everything about any given topic.


What I take from what you're saying there Polednice is that one can accept diversity of opinion. This is very hard with controversial topics for sure. Through this forum, I have been exposed to more sides of appreciating classical music. I don't necessarily, for example, think 'conservative' (in terms of musical taste) is a dirty word any more, and I prefer to use a phrase like 'people who value tradition' to describe this sort of listener on that part of the spectrum.

I've waffled a bit here maybe but that's what your comment there bought up in my mind.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Sid James said:


> What I take from what you're saying there Polednice is that one can accept diversity of opinion.


Not quite, as I think that some people have opinions that are deserving of no respect whatsoever. What I meant is that on subjects that aren't purely about taste, where some knowledge is involved, people always ought to assume regardless of their level of knowledge that they might have something to learn from someone else, and may well be proven wrong.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I think communication is good at TC. Not too many big words are used.

View attachment 3951


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Polednice said:


> Not quite, as I think that some people have opinions that are deserving of no respect whatsoever. What I meant is that on subjects that aren't purely about taste, where some knowledge is involved, people always ought to assume regardless of their level of knowledge that they might have something to learn from someone else, and may well be proven wrong.


In real life, I give respect to all people's opinions, but I don't have to like or accept their attitude - which relates to the actual delivery rather than content of their message, opinion, etc.

I also think in areas of the arts like music, there will inevitably be many grey areas. So one has to make a decision based on facts, and esp. in controversial areas, there will be many conclusions drawn from the same facts (just like a judgement in a high court of law, a majority of judges may make the decision, while another in the minority may make a dissenting judgement - eg. opposite conclusion - in part - based on same facts). Of course music is not law, or history, but the area of musicology does employ similar kinds of techniques based on historical & musical (etc.) evidence.

Similarly in line with this thread is this quote from French philosopher Voltaire -
_
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."_

*@ Vaneyes* - Get that medical jargon OUTTA HERE! :lol:


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

samurai said:


> @ Sid, I think a major part of trying to achieve civility--be it on venues such as this--or indeed, in real life as well, is not to demonize those against whom I am arguing, and assume that they have just as much honor and sincerity in making their arguments as I do, and also, as much right to same. In all honesty, in the past I haven't always adhered to these ideals, but as I enter my sixth decade on this planet, I have vowed to be more cognizant of these principles. Another trap which I--and probably a good many others--on this site and others like it have fallen into is personalizing/confusing an issue with the person posing or arguing it. One would think that after 30+ years of my career which involved my having to arrest possibly hundreds of people on warrants etc. etc. I would have learned this lesson quite well, but from time to time I still find myself having to remind myself of it, and not always successfully either!


But _sam_, sometimes it's hard to be humble.

:devil:


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> But _sam_, sometimes it's hard to be humble.
> 
> :devil:


Quite right, HT 72, but we are all of us works in progress, and so we should keep on trying... :angel:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sid James said:


> In real life, I give respect to all people's opinions, but I don't have to like or accept their attitude - which relates to the actual delivery rather than content of their message, opinion, etc.


This is a great point.

I am in a grumpy mood just now - only had one cup of coffee - but I'm not sure that it's always worth the effort to try to communicate. Some people willfully misinterpret what you say; their mind never even begins to change. So there are people I'd rather yell at than waste time trying to communicate with. At least it's more productive.

But with regard to music, it makes me sad to see that kind of thing happen. We see it in the "recent music" vs "old music" debates that have just about taken over this whole forum. I don't think I can express myself about that topic - or rather, the way it is conducted - without risking more violations of the site rules until I've had at least two more cups of coffee.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

@ Science, Not Sanka, I hope!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> ...
> 
> But with regard to music, it makes me sad to see that kind of thing happen. We see it in the "recent music" vs "old music" debates that have just about taken over this whole forum. I don't think I can express myself about that topic - or rather, the way it is conducted - without risking more violations of the site rules until I've had at least two more cups of coffee.


Well I think what people may not realize is if you are rude to somebody on one thread the negative vibe may spread to other less controversial threads. I've found it too, bitterness can be a result of this, making the whole forum potentially toxic.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

samurai said:


> @ Science, Not Sanka, I hope!


Definitely not!


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Well I think what people may not realize is if you are rude to somebody on one thread the negative vibe may spread to other less controversial threads. I've found it too, bitterness can be a result of this, making the whole forum potentially toxic.


Yep. I'm a grudge-bearer too, so it lasts a long time for me.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> Yep. I'm a grudge-bearer too, so it lasts a long time for me.


I have had similar experience.

& the proof is in the pudding so to speak. Since I aimed for neutrality and a more positive vibe in my opening post, this thread has been okay in terms of discussion, it's reflected what I set out to do. Just wish there were more replies here than to threads that have "atonal" or "objective" or some such as their title (which kind of shows how some people will latch on automatically to negativity of some sort, & inevitably it ends up as a train wreck, a showcase of some really poor communication, as I have seen this week).


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

Okay, I'll take the bait.  (Man, Sid, a guy can't stay off this forum even if he wants to!)

My personal experience with this issue has been that one of the toughest things to do is to judge one's own tone in response to a perceived slight or a perceived attack. I've thought my responses were calm and intelligent at the time that I wrote them, and then re-reading my posts several days later, I've seen that they did not really came across the way I intended. It's mainly that that has kept me away from posting. I haven't respresented myself in print the way I know I would be sure to do in person, and that is very discouraging.

As far as suggestions go, I would make at least one. Take the time to actually read what the other person writes before responding to it. I've seen many cases where it seems rather obvious that the one replying has speed-read the original post and responded to his or her quick impression of it rather than to what the OP actually wrote.


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Typical dinner while growing up:










Typical dinner now:









*Any questions?*


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

kv466 said:


> Typical dinner while growing up:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only a comment: the second seems far preferable to me, as I can now use an electronic device to talk (or argue) with like-minded people, rather than give into the namby-pamby idea that I have to get along with the members of my family who, frankly, are aliens to my way of life!


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

^^ So sad


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

An article in today's Melbourne Age newspaper talks to some of the issues I was raising, eg. the importance of good communication for all people, across the board.

Here is the whole article (I'm not sure how long it will be freely available, I guess at some stage it will be archived, so I'll give the title) -

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/lets-talk-20120401-1w6fr.html#ixzz1qrg4uxRE

Article title - Let's talk
Author - Michael Short
Date - April 2, 2012
Newspaper - The Age (Melbourne, Australia)

& here's a great quote from the article -

_''Communication and relationships is everything and the breakdown of that is what has led to a lot of tragic things in our current society - homelessness and marriage breakdown, even early school dropouts, substance abuse. Things come about because there is no communication, or poor communication; and people don't feel heard, they don't feel understood,'' Howland says. ''If you understand why somebody is behaving the way they do, you're more likely to be sympathetic. And that understanding really only comes from talking and perhaps even, more importantly, listening."_

& another, speaking exactly to what you have been discussing above -

_"The rate and level of conversation in many families has been shackled by technology. Screens can be great, and do facilitate many wonderful things, but they do not promote conversation. In so many homes, it is not uncommon to find each member of the family interacting with a screen, rather than each other. TAOC (The Art Of Converstation) can help moderate this and restore some balance."_

Everyone needs the art of conversation, that's what the article argues. With regards to current vibe of this forum (eg. threads being locked recently due in big part to poor communication), this is sage advice, I think.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

kv466 said:


> Typical dinner while growing up:
> 
> Typical dinner now:
> 
> ...


My family ate the Christian way, like Matilda's: facing the television.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Sid James said:


> An article in today's Melbourne Age newspaper talks to some of the issues I was raising, eg. the importance of good communication for all people, across the board.
> 
> Here is the whole article (I'm not sure how long it will be freely available, I guess at some stage it will be archived, so I'll give the title) -
> 
> ...


At least since mom got a job, most kids have probably learned more about communication at school than at home.

Anyway, corporations spend huge amounts of money figuring out how to grab and hold kids' attention, and the results can be see in video games, music videos, etc.... There is no way ordinary parents can compete - especially since their own attentions are drawn to their own entertainments.

Frankly, I don't see any way out of it, unless civilization collapses or our culture changes in a huge way. We'll grow ever more bored, ever more desperate for entertainment, ever less patient with the inconveniences of real people. That trend is going to continue as long as someone can find a way to make money by grabbing and holding your attention, and their power to do so is going to grow as strong as technology allows.

In essence, we are being enslaved with golden shackles.

I've put a bit of thought into it though, and I've come to believe that perhaps the freedom to selectively consume entertainment and status symbols may well be what is most important. It's not a romantic vision of humanity by any means, and there may always be a minority who cannot be satisfied with that.

Of the dystopian novels that I've read, the one that I suspect will turn out to be most prescient is _Fahrenheit 451_.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Communication by Art Rock (Hennie), on Flickr


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> At least since mom got a job, most kids have probably learned more about communication at school than at home......
> 
> Of the dystopian novels that I've read, the one that I suspect will turn out to be most prescient is _Fahrenheit 451_.


I agree, and the burden of teaching kids the basics of life - let alone academic skills - falls on teachers.

As I said in the other thread I made (re critiques of Modernism), I think in decades we will look back on this era of digital advancement or whatever with more understanding of it's negative impact than we do now. Just like those ugly apartment blocks that mar major cities across the world, built in the 1960's as part of the utopian dream, but now we see the reality - & it's not nice.

But things like this article give me hope that we can go back to the basics, in our communities, and re-learn the skills we have lost (spot on with reference to _Fahrenheit 451_!). We have to do it at grassroots level, and it's happening already as we speak, I've been part of it on my local level.



science said:


> ...Frankly, I don't see any way out of it, unless civilization collapses or our culture changes in a huge way. We'll grow ever more bored, ever more desperate for entertainment, ever *less patient with the inconveniences of real people*...


The part I bolded is what is often on my mind. But I'm an optimist at heart. I think we can make cultural change from the ground up. It's unlikely that the politicians and corporates will do it for us. The saying _think global, act local _applies here.

& re *ARt Rock*, that image is spot on, a masterpiece. When I'm travelling on public transport, if I need to ask a member of the public about getting to a part of town I don't know well, I usually can't ask a young person (they're all on their iphones, ipods, etc.). To ask them is an inconvenience, taking them away from what they're doing. So inevitably I ask an older or senior person, and they are more ready to help (if they can answer my question). Strange how these basics seem to be thin on the ground a bit now. Of course, I should look it all up on my iphone, but I don't have one and don't need one.

& related to that, many train stations don't have full time staff anymore. Another sign of progress, which is cutting budgets while giving us gobbledigook about so called _added efficiencies._ That type of jargon does not wash with me (it's a distortion of the English language - just tell us you're saving money, that's it!). Keep It Simple, Stupid!

It's getting to this ridiculous stage. Now the way people often communicate in an office is by email, to other staff members. In the old days you just said it to people directly. So you have to word your email_ perfectly_ in order not to be misconstrued. Which brings to mind the games with semantics played on this forum.


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