# Mahler's Symphony #10



## Rach Man (Aug 2, 2016)

I was just listening to Mahler's 10th symphony (James Levine: Philadelphia Orchestra) the other day and I was curious about how much work Mahler actually finished and about the different composers who did work to finalize the piece. I looked online to get some information, but if there are people here on Talk Classical who can enlighten me even more about this "unfinished" symphony, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Mahler completed the entire symphony in 4 stave short score with no gaps.
1st movement - completely scored
2nd movement - only the start (not sure how many bars) were orchestrated.
3rd movement - 30 bars out of 170 were orchestrated
4th movement - only in short score
5th movement - only in short score

In addition to the orchestrated sections, there are notations on the short score about ideas for orchestration.

Given Mahler's working methodology, once he had it in short score format, he did not make any major structural changes. Of course he would have tweaked it quite a bit especially after he had a chance to hear it. *

One of the most interesting aspects of listening to the Cooke, Wheeler and revised Mazzetti versions is not the differences but how few differences there are. I intentionally did not mention the Carpenter version as he did a very intrusive reconstruction including adding bits from previous symphonies. Of the three that I mentioned first, the Cooke is the one which 'adds' the least to the work.

One caveat, the Ormandy recording is of the first Cooke version which was before Cooke gained access to a lot of Mahler's hitherto unseen papers, and so does not represent all of what we know that Mahler had written. Also the Slatkin recording is of Mazzetti's initial thoughts. After Mazzetti had a chance to hear Wheeler's version, he went back and made some significant changes (the Lopez-Cobos recording). My recommendations are the final Cooke version (aka Cooke III) with the revised Mazzetti coming in second.

* It is worth noting that he never heard the 9th performed so it is interesting to wonder what changes he would have made to that! That, of course, never stops conductors from playing the work.


----------



## Rach Man (Aug 2, 2016)

Becca,

Thanks for that information.

I just ordered the Rattle (Berlin Philharmonic) to listen to that version.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Becca says most of what needs to be said, except there's also a version by Russian conductor Rudolph Barshai that doesn't seem to add much. The Cookes are far the most recorded, although I personally prefer Mazetti II -- but by all means make your own choice.


----------



## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

I think it should be said at a time when attempts to 'finish' works left incomplete have come under some flack that we owe Cooke and others a great deal for their work.


----------



## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

Becca said:


> Mahler completed the entire symphony in 4 stave short score with no gaps.
> 1st movement - completely scored
> 2nd movement - only the start (not sure how many bars) were orchestrated.
> 3rd movement - 30 bars out of 170 were orchestrated
> ...


It pains me incredibly that he never heard his 9th.


----------



## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

I just finished listening to this lecture by Deryck Cooke at the first performance of the 10th, where he analyzes the music and explains his methods, with examples on the piano and orchestra. I thought it was fascinating and wanted to share!


----------



## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I have been listening to various Mahler 10's. So far Chailly 's 1986 and the Lopez-Cobos recordings are the best I have heard. Yes, as previously noted, there seems to be little difference in the realizations.

I just finished listening to the realization by Gamzou. The realization or completion of the work is something I don't have the knowledge to speak to. But the playing sounds off to me. A bit weak, not very full, insufficiently recorded or something along those lines.


----------



## Rach Man (Aug 2, 2016)

I bought about 60 BBC recordings from the BBC magazine from a library sale for a grand total of $5. I didn't know, exactly, what I had in the group. But one of the CDs is Mahler's 10 (completed) with Mark Wigglesworth conducting the BBC National Orchestra Of Wales. I have found that I really like this version. In fact, it is one of my favorite pieces in my recent listening.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Rach Man said:


> I bought about 60 BBC recordings from the BBC magazine from a library sale for a grand total of $5. I didn't know, exactly, what I had in the group. But one of the CDs is Mahler's 10 (completed) with Mark Wigglesworth conducting the BBC National Orchestra Of Wales. I have found that I really like this version. In fact, it is one of my favorite pieces in my recent listening.
> 
> View attachment 107769


Hi Rach Man. I lucked upon this same recording of the 10th a number of years ago and it has remained a personal favorite. What an amazing symphony in that everything seems to be streamlined in concept and stripped down to the bare essentials and yet is still so powerful in its effects... It's an intense and straightforward performance and I really like what Wigglesworth did with it. Some of the chords in the first movement are absolutely hair-raising, perhaps even terrifying, and very much point in the direction that music was going to take in the 20th century... So glad this fine recording has been mentioned. It wasn't Mahler's fault that his time ran out and he was unable to complete the full orchestration, though the symphony was substantially complete in the form of a continuous draft.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have Mahler's 10th with Levine and with Rattle. I understand Mahler's 10th is something we can be pretty confident in having a lot of Mahler in it. On the other hand, forget about Beethoven's 10th. Any reconstruction of that is more of a pipe dream.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

dzc4627 said:


> It pains me incredibly that he never heard his 9th.


Beethoven never heard his ninth either.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Beethoven never heard his ninth either.


It seems he never heard his own ninth..


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Rach Man said:


> ...... one of the CDs is Mahler's 10 (completed) with Mark Wigglesworth conducting the BBC National Orchestra Of Wales. I have found that I really like this version. In fact, it is one of my favorite pieces in my recent listening......





Larkenfield said:


> ...... I lucked upon this same recording of the 10th a number of years ago and it has remained a personal favorite.…..


Wiggerworth's 10th on the BBC CD also has some magical moments in the softer passages, e.g. towards the end of the Adagio after the dissonance. There may be other more heart-on-sleeve performances, especially in the first scherzo and the Purgatorio, but I like his sensitive touches nonetheless. On the other hand, for out and out attack, there is the raw energy of Goldschmidt's 1964 world premiere of Cooke I. Testament did a good job coupling it with Cooke's illustrated talk, plus a 1960 lectured performance of the incomplete Cooke 0. A collector's item!


----------

