# Original intent?



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

We occasionally have threads about observing (or not) repeats, arrangements for various instruments, cuts in operas, the correct finale to play with the Op. 130, and so forth. Somebody always stands up staunchly for "original intent," arguing that any departures from the originals are...well...evil.

Such people of principle may be amused to read that Beethoven authorized Ries to have the Hammerklavier Sonata published in London three ways: (1) "you could omit the Largo and begin straight away with the Fugue"; (2) "you could use the first movement and then the Adagio, and then for the third movement the Scherzo"; and (3) "you could take just the first movement and the Scherzo and let them form the whole sonata."

Granted, this was carrying casualness a bit far! :lol:


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As someone who first got into classical via the synthesizer I have no room to defend original intent. I'm also not above making up my own program for the music if it moves me more than the original, or a non-program. 

Still, I like the repeats if they are written in.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Depends on the circumstances I guess. Op130 was definitely planned with the Grosse Fugue as the ending and Beethoven wrote another ending only at the insistence of his publisher.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

But it's possible to carry it too far. I was chatting with a member of a young, now defunct but important for its time quartet, and mentioned the alternative ending for Opus 130, and was told "We don't know it . . . have never played it." because they always capped Opus 130 with the fugue. I was nevertheless aghast, because to me it's inconceivable that a professional string quartet had never even read through an entire, complete, mature string quartet movement by Beethoven.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I took me awhile to 'come to terms' with Op.133; with fugues in general in fact. Couldn't 'hear' the voices, couldn't follow the counterpoint. Until that understanding came about, I sought out recordings of 130 with the 'alternate' finale. It's fine music that way.

Nowadays I listen to 130/133. That finale 'makes' the music - now; it 'killed' it - then. Beethoven's publisher probably made the right business decision, and so did Beethoven.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Nowadays I listen to 130/133. That finale 'makes' the music - now; it 'killed' it - then. Beethoven's publisher probably made the right business decision, and so did Beethoven.


Wrong, you are.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Regarding Beethoven's replacing the Grosse Fuge with a new finale: He evidently didn't take much convincing. Holst wrote to him, "Artaria is delighted that you embraced his proposal; he will gain very much thereby; the two works [the quartet and the fugue] separately will be more sought after."

Cooper adds: "Although the Grosse Fuge is widely preferred as the finale today, Beethoven clearly intended the new finale to replace it, and the Grosse Fuge to be performed as a separate work." Note that Beethoven had already submitted the 4-hand arrangement of the fugue (now Op. 134) and would be paid separately for the new finale.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

KenOC said:


> We occasionally have threads about observing (or not) repeats, arrangements for various instruments, cuts in operas, the correct finale to play with the Op. 130, and so forth. Somebody always stands up staunchly for "original intent," arguing that any departures from the originals are...well...evil.
> 
> Such people of principle may be amused to read that Beethoven authorized Ries to have the Hammerklavier Sonata published in London three ways: (1) "you could omit the Largo and begin straight away with the Fugue"; (2) "you could use the first movement and then the Adagio, and then for the third movement the Scherzo"; and (3) "you could take just the first movement and the Scherzo and let them form the whole sonata."
> 
> Granted, this was carrying casualness a bit far! :lol:


You are forgetting that other very deep and strong aspect of Luigi, en eye to the Pfennigs, certainly a strong 'intent '


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> You are forgetting that other very deep and strong aspect of Luigi, en eye to the Pfennigs, certainly a strong 'intent '


And to the ducat, and the florin... :lol:

Beethoven's comment when asked why the Op. 135 quartet was so short: "They pay me in truncated ducats, they get a truncated quartet."


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

KenOC said:


> Regarding Beethoven's replacing the Grosse Fuge with a new finale: He evidently didn't take much convincing. Holst wrote to him, "Artaria is delighted that you embraced his proposal; he will gain very much thereby; the two works [the quartet and the fugue] separately will be more sought after."
> 
> Cooper adds: "Although the Grosse Fuge is widely preferred as the finale today, Beethoven clearly intended the new finale to replace it, and the Grosse Fuge to be performed as a separate work." Note that Beethoven had already submitted the 4-hand arrangement of the fugue (now Op. 134) and would be paid separately for the new finale.


He probably didn't take much convincing as it got him more money. Beethoven was in need of money at the end of his life, not sure how he managed to mismanage things. Maybe doctor's costs were a problem.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

starry said:


> He probably didn't take much convincing as it got him more money. Beethoven was in need of money at the end of his life, not sure how he managed to mismanage things. Maybe doctor's costs were a problem.


Life in a spacious apartment in central Vienna, with a servant, wasn't cheap. But mostly Beethoven was concerned to provide for his nephew, and the rampant inflation had pretty much destroyed his savings.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

GGluek said:


> But it's possible to carry it too far. I was chatting with a member of a young, now defunct but important for its time quartet, and mentioned the alternative ending for Opus 130, and was told "We don't know it . . . have never played it." because they always capped Opus 130 with the fugue. I was nevertheless aghast, because to me it's inconceivable that a professional string quartet had never even read through an entire, complete, mature string quartet movement by Beethoven.


It could be used as a nice encore piece for a string quartet ensemble.


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## Rapide (Oct 11, 2011)

Joseph Haydn's _Last Seven Words Of Christ_ was authorised/arranged by the composer in more than one version, which if I am not wrong: choral, orchestral, string quartet and solo piano.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As to getting up in arms about intent, how many people know the Piano Sonata No. 14 "Moonlight" in its entirety? There is good reason people in general only know the first movement. The rest of it is borderline pedestrian by Beethoven standards. I especially find the last movement kind of dull in comparison to the first.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

KenOC said:


> ...Beethoven authorized Ries to have the Hammerklavier Sonata published in London three ways: (1) "you could omit the Largo and begin straight away with the Fugue"; (2) "you could use the first movement and then the Adagio, and then for the third movement the Scherzo"; and (3) "you could take just the first movement and the Scherzo and let them form the whole sonata."
> 
> Granted, this was carrying casualness a bit far! :lol:


No, no, this obviously foreshadows Boulez' Piano Sonata No. 3, which could be performed in any order...:lol:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Weston said:


> As to getting up in arms about intent, how many people know the Piano Sonata No. 14 "Moonlight" in its entirety? There is good reason people in general only know the first movement. The rest of it is borderline pedestrian by Beethoven standards. I especially find the last movement kind of dull in comparison to the first.


Probably depends on the performance. The first movement I'm sure could seem very dull in the wrong hands.


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