# Clinkers



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

(I've finally learned that I can ask here questions I've long wondered about of real orchestral musicians/conductors. I know it's a slow dawning, but what the hell . . .).

You often read about old school (maybe even new school) conductors who have zero tolerance for wrong notes. How easy is it for conductors (or even other musicians in the orchestra) to pick them up? I'm not talking about an obvious clinker in an exposed passage, but something by a fourth desk violinist, or a second clarinet in a tutti. Are they that audible (or pin-pointable) or only if you have a professional ear?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I remember a story about a Toscanini rehearsal, where the clarinet played a note, like Eb. Toscanini stopped and told him he should have played an E. The clarinetist showed his part, which had an Eb. Toscinani, conducting from memory, called for the score. The score had an E, and the clarinet's part was wrong. That's what I call an ear.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There are some conductors who have very "wide" ears. They can hear anything in the orchestra. Many conductors (most?) have a hard time hearing strings beyond the first desk, but I've played with a few conductors who hear everything front to back. The late Irwin Hoffmann was one of them. Woe to the back stand of violinists if they messed up somewhere. I vividly recall a rehearsal of 1812 overture when the violins were in E flat major, which is a tough key for that instrument and the intonation was spotty and he stopped to address the very last stand and let them know that their tuning was awful and then had them play the passage alone - it was awful. The look of contempt and disgust on his face said it all. Then proceeded up the section, and they all acquitted themselves well. How he heard those two out of the whole was amazing. One thing that makes it more possible to hear errors is to not your head buried in the score so you can really listen. Many orchestras are self-correcting and the pride of ensemble makes intonation and playing errors far less likely. 

What's really surprising is how many errors there are on recordings with big time orchestras and conductors. No one either cared or realized there was a problem. Lorin Maazel was very much aware of the problem of mistakes on recordings because the listener would focus in on the upcoming error every time the recording was played. So it was necessary that recordings are perfect as can be. 

What's really surprising is that often wrong notes or rhythms are caught by fellow players and not by the conductor. When you know the literature really well you can easily catch things. Then you're in a quandary: you want it played correctly, but do you tell the player and risk offending him and becoming a mortal enemy? Do you tell the conductor and risk his enmity because you've demonstrated your superior hearing and knowledge of the score? Or just let it go? My work around is this: if the error occurs more than once, i go to the player and suggest "I think there's a mistake in your part that we ought to check".


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

MarkW said:


> How easy is it for conductors (or even other musicians in the orchestra) to pick them up? I'm not talking about an obvious clinker in an exposed passage, but something by a fourth desk violinist, or a second clarinet in a tutti. Are they that audible (or pin-pointable) or only if you have a professional ear?


Hood question...it is indeed a special skill....most musicians/ conductors can hear a wrong note quite easily in Baroque, Classical or small ensemble performances...for large orchestras, late romantic, 20th century, it's a different matter. 
Boris Goldovsky, a fine conductor himself, felt unqualified to conduct large orchestras, Strauss operas, etc...he said he couldn't immediately detect wrong notes in a full orchestra tutti....Toscanini, Reiner, Szell, Bernstein, Karajan, Solti, etc have that ability....it goes beyond wrong notes, also....some can instantly correct faulty intonation immediately - as in - orchestra going full blast, fortissimo, <<3rd horn, that F# is flat>>....and they are right!!


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## Mifek (Jul 28, 2018)

From another thread:



satoru said:


> May I share a Penderecki story? It's from a professional horn player (who came to train our university student orchestra).
> 
> Back in early 70s, Penderecki conducted a premier of his own work in Japan. As typical of his style of the day, the piece was full of dissonance, as if the keyboard was hit by both arms. While rehearsing, in the middle of the piece where full orchestra was playing, Penderecki stopped the orchestra and said "3rd horn, your note is too high". Our trainer was playing the 4th horn. As the stack of notes were so heavy, no one in horn section believed what Penderecki said. They took it as a bluff. The rehearsal went on, and again at the same spot, Penderecki stopped the orchestra and said the same thing, "3rd horn, your note is too high". The horn players still didn't believe it. After stopping the orchestra for the third time, Penderecki went to the piano and hit a cord, saying "this is the cord here". Then he played a single note saying "3rd horn, this is your note". He waved the 3rd horn to play his note, and lo and behold, the note played by 3rd horn was too high, indeed. After this, the full orchestra paid much more attention to what Penderecki said. Our trainer then told us: "Even though the cord Penderecki uses in his pieces are full of dissonance, he stacks the notes to get certain sound with a reason and a purpose, and he has ears to discriminate one to another when the sound is not right."


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Hearing pitches is not necessarily the same thing as hearing faulty notes, or intonation in a full orchestral tutti fortissimo section....the latter requires the ability to decipher, to instantly analyze the sound being produced at high volume from many different sources...the former requires hearing and identifying actual pitches in a chord tone cluster.....
I knew quite a few people, the theory "geeks", who excelled at the former - if you went to a piano, and randomly hit any sort of tone cluster - ie - put your forearm on the keyboard and pounded it out, or struck any sort of tone cluster at random - these people could identify every pitch that was sounded...many/most had perfect pitch, and identification was not difficult for them. still, it's pretty amazing to witness....I'm convinced that these people simply hear music differently from most of us...
This is a bit different from detecting, correcting errant pitches, or intonation from a full orchestra.

Regarding Toscanini and his memory - famous story - before a rehearsal, 2nd clarinet player comes to AT, 
<<the Eb flat key on my instrument is broken, I'm afraid I won't be able to play today>>
Toscanini, pauses, in thought - then - 
<<you don't have any Ebs to play in today's music, so there shouldn't be any problem!!>> :tiphat:


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

I've written this before but as it's relevant...
Boulez got to be known by English pros as the French Correction, such was his acute and accurate hearing. Apparently he picked out a wrong note in Stockhausen's 'Gruppen' during a rehearsal once.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I've read that Pierre Boulez had this ability. 
When listening, I am especially sensitive to flubbed horn section notes.
Also, flubbed high passages in the violins tend to stand out.
Clarinets: I've always had a problem with clarinets sounding too flat.
Fast passages in the bass strings are easy to hear flubs in, usually unsyncronized lines which sound sloppy.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> What's really surprising is how many errors there are on recordings with big time orchestras and conductors. No one either cared or realized there was a problem. Lorin Maazel was very much aware of the problem of mistakes on recordings because the listener would focus in on the upcoming error every time the recording was played. So it was necessary that recordings are perfect as can be.


Is there a list somewhere of recordings with wrong notes and other mistakes? Listening to these examples could be good training as well as entertaining.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I have witnesse in person twice Boulez rehearsing. His ear was unreal.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Simplicissimus said:


> Is there a list somewhere of recordings with wrong notes and other mistakes? Listening to these examples could be good training as well as entertaining.


I don't think so - the list would be so long....there are always mistakes on recordings - tho most of them are extremely minor, .....older recordings, taken from unedited live performances may have some obvious ones....


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

On the flip side, Charles Ives didn't mind when musicians played his music off-key, off-tempo, or played the wrong notes. It was sort of the sound he was after in the first place.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

I just finished up a virtual/live rendition of the Overture of Pirates of Penzance.

I started with a piano backing track with click, and started laying some virtual instruments on top.

Then we had musicians submit tracks they played to the guide track. The French Horn lady played both Hn parts (separately of course).

Missing were Vln 1, Vln 2, Vla, bsn, cl 1 & cb live instruments.

I mixed 'em together, then we gathered 10 musicians together in cubicles in the courtyard and recorded them all as individual tracks, which I then added.

Yes, I can hear when the clarinetist plays an Eb instead of an E.


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