# Baroque music, people listen to it but do not talk about it



## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I have been to many classical music forums, baroque music is usually the least discussed of all. Contrary to its apparent negligence in popular forums, baroque music is very popular in the market, even more so than so romantic music today, the records of baroque music sell very well, second hand out-of-prints still claim extortionately high. To be frankly, european baroue music is the best music in the whole history of humanity, far better than those from classical and romantic eras. I have simply stopped listening to other classical music later than baroque music, or all the music composed later than 1770. From all the 2000-3000 pieces from Reaissance and baroque era I have ever heard there is never a single piece bores me. But music by atonal Bartok and pompous Mahler,Stravinsky make me feel like nauseating, they are worse than Rap to my opinion. Do people really feel ashamed to talk about baroque music? I am chinese btw, and I have listened to most of musical genres since the last 500 years, I am settled on rock and baroque and renaissance for my life.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks for the interesting harangue. It being a rather straightforward if belligerent statement of preferences, you don't leave much to talk about, but ... "Rock, Renaissance and Baroque" constitute a closer grouping than you might think. Except for the amplification, rock has several points of similarity with secular music of the Middle Ages.

I ate too many peanuts yesterday, and developed a bellyache maybe similar to your reaction to the music of Bartók. His music is not particularly atonal, BTW.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Outside of Bach, Handel, Rameau, and some of the German organists, Baroque music bores me and I find it often to be of a low quality compared with Mahler, for example.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

Ariasexta said:


> Do people really feel ashamed to talk about baroque music?


The thought of being _ashamed_ of any of my musical enthusiasms has never occurred to me, and certainly not my love of baroque. It tends to go in fits and starts, but there's no great shortage of discussion of baroque, either here or on other forums. See these substantial threads for example:

200 years of music at Versailles

Deutsch Harmonia Mundi 50 CD baroque box set

Baroque recommendations

Handel operas and cantatas

There are threads on Vivaldi, Mondonville, Couperin, etc - just use 'Search' to find them. And there's a good deal of discussion of baroque opera in the Opera on DVD thread, too.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> But music by atonal Bartok and pompous Mahler,Stravinsky make me feel like nauseating, they are worse than Rap to my opinion.


How interesting! I tend to put those names together on my "beware" list _too_. So I'm not the only one who thinks the same way about them.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I love baroque. The baroque period lasted about 150 years, one of the longest periods in western music. I often wonder why we call it "classical" music.

I went on a baroque binge for at least a decade and listened to nothing but baroque (or early music in general) and rock. I agree it is a very complex and fulfilling style of music. For a long time I hated the _style galant_ and the Mannheim school that ushered in the classic period, which to my ears was a dumbing down of baroque splendor.

However, I have since grown to enjoy all periods of western music (with the possible exception of medieval which is modal and not easy for me to understand). I'm not sure what changed my mind. I only know that I binge on things to fully understand them, and once I gain a fair understanding, I have to grow and move on to something else. In this way life and the enjoyment of the arts stays rich and rewarding. I don't listen to nearly as much baroque as I once did, but it is still there for me to enjoy when I want something with a deep contrapuntal texture.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Before I got seriously into classical, the few "classical" I listened to was pretty much just baroque. However now I don't get much out of that style, or I just don't seem to find baroque pieces that I'd like anymore. It sounds too mechanical to me. I even listen more to classicism, for which I initially had a negative attitude. Strangely though, as a beginner pianist I still enjoy to play baroque.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Baroque music is discussed since 400 years, we got tired. 

Supra-memory of our grandparents, grand-grandparents and so on tells us "this was already discussed when we were alive, talk about Schoenberg and John Cage, this is more interesting for us", you may don't belive me but the turth is that there are nasty, long-bearded dudes inside of our minds, they come from all periods and influence our thoughts.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

I can't say I listen to much baroque, although when I played the flute (and the blasted piano), it was pretty much the only repertoire I ever played.

Picking up my flute again, I've been playing this piece:






Not anything as rich as Emmanuel's version here. I do find more pleasure out of playing it, than listening to it. I imagine others say the same about mine, when they hear me play


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Webernite said:


> Outside of Bach, Handel, Rameau, and some of the German organists, Baroque music bores me and I find it often to be of a low quality compared with Mahler, for example.


There's a lot of good Baroque composers, and a lot of bad Romantic composers, too. I wouldn't say that the ratio of good to bad in terms of quality differed too much between the two eras. Certainly, compared to the classical era, which was dominated by only a few great names!



Huilunsoittaja said:


> How interesting! I tend to put those names together on my "beware" list _too_. So I'm not the only one who thinks the same way about them.


I don't see anything to beware in Bartok and Stravinsky from an avid Prokofiev fan. Some of S.P.P.'s most brutal works are beyond anything Igor and Bela ever wrote.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Air said:


> There's a lot of good Baroque composers, and a lot of bad Romantic composers, too. I wouldn't say that the ratio of good to bad in terms of quality differed too much between the two eras. Certainly, compared to the classical era, which was dominated by only a few great names.


I don't deny that, but he seems to be alluding to Baroque composers whom I _would_ consider bad or mediocre, and definitely inferior to Mahler.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Like a great many, Romanticism, Post-Romanticism, and early Modernism accounts for a huge portion of my classical music collection. After all we are speaking of Schubert, Schumann, Hugo Wolf, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Richard Strauss, Brahms, Verdi, Puccini, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Faure, Ravel, Vaughan-Williams, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, and any number of other composers of real brilliance. In spite of this, I am currently upon an "early music" binge... collecting mostly works from the Baroque, Renaissance, and earlier. There are more than a few composers of real brilliance from these eras as well... and one would suspect... from any era. The great music of the baroque is no more limited to Bach, Handel, and Rameau than is the great music of the Romantic era limited to Brahms, Wagner, and Schumann.


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## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

I've been interested in classical music for about eight years and I find myself less and less interested in the romantic era composers. It's not that I don't like them, and do still sometimes listen, but baroque and early music is probably 90% of my listening at this point.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Thanks for recommendations Elgarian. In fact I do not dislike all romantic music, Tchaikovsky, Shumann, Wagner are pretty good ones. I had been reluctant to consider any classical composer as bad, maybe it is part of my culture being conformative, indeed I can not help avoid some romantic composers like Bartok, and some soviets composers. It is true that out of 200-300 renaissance and baroque composers, including early classical composers like Haydn, Mozart, none disappoints me, I think it is a kind of miracle. How can this happen, all composers as good as I can imagine? so the early period becomes an impossible and fascinating era to me. But it was Tchaikovsky, Wagner, Beethoven that led me into classical music other than rock, which are the best composers after the baroque age. Bachs organ works, Purcells harpsichord suites were my entry into baroque age, which I found ethereal, especially Purcells harpsichord music gave a sense of Deja Vu, and then not almost but all the genres from the baroque era ever discovered fascinate me greatly. However, I did owe development of my musical taste to some excellent romantic composers, but for the reason of the sheer vast amount of undiscovered music prior to 1770s, this is why I choose to focus on the period before 1770s. 
For me, it will be more accurate to include early classical period, including Mozart and Haydn.

Recently I found a beautiful vocal piece by John Blow(1649-1704) written for the death of Henry Purcell, based on lyrics by John Dryden the great poet" Mark, How the Lark And Linnet Sing" It is a combined effort of some greatest literary and musical geniuses of the period, it is very moving and historically interesting too, for both readers and listeners. I strongly recommend this piece if you want to understand how I am moved by the baroque period just at this moment, I am listening to it while typing

I recommend this version:

http://www.amazon.com/Countertenor-...=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1286767386&sr=1-2


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Seriously? Mahler worse than Rap? You don't like the Classical or Romantic periods of music, that's cool. But come on, don't even put Mahler in the same sentence as Rap. 50 Cent or Lil Wayne have nothing on Mahler. In a few years they will be forgotten gas station attendants, however; Mahler will be remembered and loved until this planet goes up in a big ball of flame.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> But music by atonal Bartok and pompous Mahler,Stravinsky make me feel like nauseating, they are worse than Rap to my opinion.


I somehow skipped this sentence while reading this thread before. Uhm. This reveals some extreme ignorance and lack of knowledge. Proved further by another statement:



> some romantic composers like Bartok


Yeah. Bartók romantic.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Again... I feel it is more than possible to be deeply enamored of the Baroque and earlier music (I am currently listening to some exquisitely delicate lute music by Lorenzino del Liuto, Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina, Orlando di Lasso and other Renaissance and Baroque composers) and still appreciate the splendors of the Romantics, Post-Romantics, and Modernists. Bach is unquestionable my favorite composer... but there is no way I would be without Mahler... especially his profoundly moving _Song of the Earth_:
















Rather than dismissing Mahler and other Romantics... why not start some threads upon the Baroque composers or works that you particularly admire. You may be surprised at the response.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

*Piling on?*



Aramis said:


> I somehow skipped this sentence while reading this thread before. Uhm. This reveals some extreme ignorance and lack of knowledge. Proved further by another statement:
> 
> Yeah. Bartók romantic.


Aramis, I am a veteran of the newsgroup Rec.Music.Classical.Recordings, and as such am familiar with the 'piling on' phenomenon. I hope that isn't going to happen here. The OP's message is either ill-considered or deliberately provocative - or both; but the tint/odor of piling-on often begins when the target is addressed in other than the second person.

It is certainly possible that my radar is picking up false returns; rmcr is a notable calibration destroyer. If I'm being hypersensitive, I apologize.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> If I'm being hypersensitive, I apologize.


Same with me - I'm hypersensitive for unlearned statements like calling Mahler pomopus; it's one of most obvious and common examples of ignorance in terms of classical music and anyone who posses thing called brain shouldn't doubt that person who comes out with such claim didn't put much effort to truely understand ideas behind the music before judging it.

You may say that I'm making unpleasant remarks and stuff but being disrespectful happens to me only when other person is being disrespectful toward some dead geezer that I happen to worship.

Does fact that someone is dead change anything? I mean, if I write "Mahler is bitch" I won't get banned but if I write to other user "you're a bitch" I surely will. That's not good deal.

It makes me feel schmerzen im herzen.

Anyway, nothing big did happen here. Easy.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

*Speaker for the Dead?*



Aramis said:


> You may say that I'm making unpleasant remarks and stuff but being disrespectful happens to me only when other person is being disrespectful toward some dead geezer that I happen to worship.


That's easy for me to understand (I've noticed a prickly feeling when I read something dumb about Bartók's music). Actually I'm not concerned about one-on-one confrontations - one needs to stand behind one's statements, and they are the mods' problem anyway.

Re the subject line: "Speaker For The Dead" is the title of a science fiction novel which deals with things of much greater weight than what we are messing with here.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2010)

Hmmm, interesting way to start a thread.

I have found that there is not a time period from which I can't find music that interests me. I enjoy Medieval Chant, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Early Modern/Late Romantic, and even some more recent stuff (I love Arvo Part, and am learning a new appreciation for Olivier Messiaen). Some of my favorite composers include Thomas Tallis, J. S. Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Mahler, and Brahms.

As far as Mahler being no better than rap - well, that just seems like nonsense. While Mahler may not be your cup of tea, his contributions are certainly worth more than Snoop Dogg.


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## bachbabe (Oct 11, 2010)

There is nothing like a great cantata!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

There is nothing like a great cantata! 

Unless its a great passion.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Oh, I'd certainly talk about Baroque music, except that there isn't a whole lot to talk about. There is wonderful counterpoint, exciting rhythm and great melody, etc. but the thing is that it isn't the easiest thing to talk about.

As for Mahler being pompous, there's nothing I can say to actively argue against that point, and so I'm just going to leave opinions be.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> There is nothing like a great cantata!
> 
> Unless its a great passion.


There are some days I like the passions, others I vastly prefer cantatas. Either way, incomparable works of genius... win-win situation.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Ariasexta said:


> I have been to many classical music forums, baroque music is usually the least discussed of all. Contrary to its apparent negligence in popular forums, baroque music is very popular in the market, even more so than so romantic music today, the records of baroque music sell very well, second hand out-of-prints still claim extortionately high. To be frankly, european baroue music is the best music in the whole history of humanity, far better than those from classical and romantic eras. I have simply stopped listening to other classical music later than baroque music, or all the music composed later than 1770. From all the 2000-3000 pieces from Reaissance and baroque era I have ever heard there is never a single piece bores me. But music by atonal Bartok and pompous Mahler,Stravinsky make me feel like nauseating, they are worse than Rap to my opinion. Do people really feel ashamed to talk about baroque music? I am chinese btw, and I have listened to most of musical genres since the last 500 years, I am settled on rock and baroque and renaissance for my life.


You want to discuss Baroque? Fine. As I think I know more than most who are not musicologists, but as music _hobbyists_, it would be fun discussing Baroque and in particular, late Baroque.

So, who are some of your favourite Baroque folks? Which genre/works? Do you enjoy so called historically informed performance (HIP)? I noticed your link leads to a fine performance of Robert King's group with two well known countertenors. (Incidentally, Robert King is in jail. But I like his recordings and I have all of his major Handel works).


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

sure, let's talk about baroque. I listen to Baroque every now and then, unfortunately they don't have the pure string quartet repertoire (whyyy?) . For this I listen to their collection of the violin concerto and hopefully collect as many of them. It's fun to do because , you never know how much new concerto you get or it is just the same piece. I have these CDs :


















from these two cds there is about 19 concerti and none of them are doubled, which is quite amazing shoot to pick without checking.

Less heard the Handel. Looking for new name like Telemann and Tartini.

Any one know about the Academy of Ancient Music recording, I got one that they record the Telemann Double and Triple concerto.

Regrettable, some instrument tradition were less continued after the period. Concerto for Harpsichord, Lute/Guitar and even the trumpet were less now.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> Any one know about the Academy of Ancient Music recording, I got one that they record the Telemann Double and Triple concerto.
> 
> Regrettable, some instrument tradition were less continued after the period. Concerto for Harpsichord, Lute/Guitar and even the trumpet were less now.


I have that Telemann CD you mentioned. It's fine but there are numerous Telemann CDs out there, and many can be bought for as cheap as chips.

As for the harpsichord concerto (not me), and its role in the foundation of the piano concerto genre in times to come, let's leave that for member Ariasexta to embellish us with his/her wisdom, which we are patiently awaiting.


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## vamos (Oct 9, 2009)

Facepalm at OP


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Air said:


> I don't see anything to beware in Bartok and Stravinsky from an avid Prokofiev fan. Some of S.P.P.'s most brutal works are beyond anything Igor and Bela ever wrote.


You are right about that... but I avoid most of it, and even Prokofiev didn't care for it much either. Quotes about his 2nd Symphony: "I have made the music so complex to such an extent that when I listen to it myself I do not fathom its essence, so what can I ask of others?" "Neither I nor the audience understood anything in it. It was too thickly woven. There were too many layers of counterpoint which degenerated into mere figuration... This was perhaps the first time it appeared to me that I might be destined to be a second-rate composer."

But I sense a difference in tone and _mentality _between those composers. Prokofiev wasn't Anti-Nationalist, or Anti-Purposeful Music. Stravinsky is very bitter to me, I can feel his anger against certain unnamed people, whereas as much as everyone thinks Prokofiev was somehow an "angry person," he was simply brilliant at making the _impression _of anger. Stravinsky was out for revenge, but Prokofiev was out there just for a big show. And Prokofiev has always uplifted me. (Firebird is exception, and hey, Stravinsky called it his farewell to Russian Romanticism, which he never used again).


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## Ravellian (Aug 17, 2009)

For me the baroque is a hodgepodge of wildly differing musical ideas. There's the serious operas and oratorios by Handel, the beginnings of comic opera with its 'popular' style, there's the unbelievably pianistic Scarlatti keyboard sonatas, the early conceptions of concerti and sonata forms, and the art of counterpoint brought to its fullest potential in J.S. Bach. 

It's a fascinating area of music to study because of all the different trends in music. I find it immensely rewarding to go through works like the WTC or the Scarlatti sonatas myself, playing and analyzing each piece individually, to discover the nuances of every piece. I find them less interesting to listen to, simply because they are too complex to understand just by hearing.


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## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

As previously mentioned many instruments and types of compositions basically died out in the baroque period. The harpsichord, the lute, concerto grosso. The harpsichord concerto only appeared in the late baroque and was quickly replaced by the piano, an instrument that at least the modern version, to me has a far less pleasing timbre. The harpsichord concertos of Bach and the organ concertos of Handel are wonderful works to me not just for their exceptional quality but also their rarity.


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

I listen to mostly baroque music although my taste constantly expands both ways. I would love to discuss baroque music more, it's just that I have no theoretical or historical knowledge about classical music (and a lot of people on here obviously do) so I tend to keep my mouth shut in fear of embarrassing myself.


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## Nicola (Nov 25, 2007)

karenpat said:


> I listen to mostly baroque music although my taste constantly expands both ways. I would love to discuss baroque music more, it's just that I have no theoretical or historical knowledge about classical music (and a lot of people on here obviously do) so I tend to keep my mouth shut in fear of embarrassing myself.


It's not that difficult to acquire the relevant theoretical and historical knowledge.

The top composers are J S Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Purcell, Telemann, Rameau, Monteverdi, Rameau, Lully, Corelli, Couperin, Scarlatti (in no particular order). Wikipedia contains pretty good summaries of their lives and musical achievements.

The relevant music theory is also easy to find. It may take a bit longer to absorb it but it's not rocket science. As for finding the material it's only a matter of digging around and being organised in making notes etc. Forums (such as this one, and I do not single it out) are generally of little use.

If you're stuck, here's a useful introduction to the baroque style, which also discusses the main characteristics of "classical" and "romantic" music: http://www.dorak.info/music/contents.htmleach

I would suggest that each time you spot a musical word or expression which you don't understand look it up in Google. Invariably you will find that, again, Wikipedia offers a good explanation of the relevant theory. It may seem daunting at first but you'll soon get the hang of it with a little persistence.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> You are right about that... but I avoid most of it, and even Prokofiev didn't care for it much either. Quotes about his 2nd Symphony: "I have made the music so complex to such an extent that when I listen to it myself I do not fathom its essence, so what can I ask of others?" "Neither I nor the audience understood anything in it. It was too thickly woven. There were too many layers of counterpoint which degenerated into mere figuration... This was perhaps the first time it appeared to me that I might be destined to be a second-rate composer."
> 
> But I sense a difference in tone and _mentality _between those composers. Prokofiev wasn't Anti-Nationalist, or Anti-Purposeful Music. Stravinsky is very bitter to me, I can feel his anger against certain unnamed people, whereas as much as everyone thinks Prokofiev was somehow an "angry person," he was simply brilliant at making the _impression _of anger. Stravinsky was out for revenge, but Prokofiev was out there just for a big show. And Prokofiev has always uplifted me. (Firebird is exception, and hey, Stravinsky called it his farewell to Russian Romanticism, which he never used again).


Prokofiev housed a lot of anger towards the regime he worked for throughout his artistic career and this is well-reflected in his music. Even though the composer gravitated towards tonality towards the last years of his life, this tonality was still marked by the same bitterness, irony, and anger as can be seen in brutal earlier works like the _Scythian Suite_, _Seven they are Seven_, and (according to you) the first movement of the _2nd Symphony_. Think about the darkness present in the 6th symphony. Or even the seemingly tame 7th symphony, which in my opinion, is one of the most brilliant examples of irony in music. No, most historians would agree that Prokofiev was not satisfied with the conditions he was living under.

In my opinion, there is actually a lot less bitterness and harshness in Stravinsky's music, not to mention Bartok, who is very folksy at times (don't let complex rhythms and tone clusters fool you). But something like Stravinsky's _Petrouchka_ has no less cheer than Prokofiev's _Romeo and Juliet_, and the same thing could be said about The _Miraculous Mandarin_ when it is pitted against the gaiety of a work like Prokofiev's _Cinderella_.

That said, the _2nd Symphony_ is a brilliant work, which I personally don't see as being outright "angry".


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Prokofiev's Second is not only brilliant, it's amazing. Nothing like it.


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## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

I think the original author is essentially correct in that baroque or other early music is far less discussed than music of the romantic or modern period, not just here but on other places where classical music is discussed. And I think to some degree it is that baroque music is held in lower regard by "serious" classical music fans, but also it may simply be that baroque music is less easy to discuss.


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## karenpat (Jan 16, 2009)

Nicola said:


> It's not that difficult to acquire the relevant theoretical and historical knowledge.
> 
> The top composers are J S Bach, Handel, Vivaldi, Purcell, Telemann, Rameau, Monteverdi, Rameau, Lully, Corelli, Couperin, Scarlatti (in no particular order). Wikipedia contains pretty good summaries of their lives and musical achievements.
> 
> ...


I do know something about some of the composers and the baroque as a period in general (I'm an art history student). What I meant by lack of knowledge was more that people around here refer to things as objectively good or bad regardless of taste, with a lot of reasons for why it's good or bad, and I can't do that. I just know what I like.


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## Enjoying Life (Aug 2, 2010)

karenpat said:


> I do know something about some of the composers and the baroque as a period in general (I'm an art history student). What I meant by lack of knowledge was more that people around here refer to things as objectively good or bad regardless of taste, with a lot of reasons for why it's good or bad, and I can't do that. I just know what I like.


Very nicely said.

I also find it interesting that Prokofiev ends up being discussed in a thread about Baroque music. I guess that follows the original point that people end up talking about other music more.

I wonder if that is because you can generate more emotion and argument about other time periods. You like Baroque or you don't but you usually don't find people arguing (sorry - discussing) it. To start a animated discussion here, all you have to do is be for or against 20th century music... or Wagner ... or in this case Prokofiev. Then the long answers back and forth begin.

Maybe we enjoy listening to Baroque music for what it is - music to enjoy. But with other periods it is more of a package deal - listening and debating. I am starting to wonder if the listening is just a preliminary for the debating.

Anyway, like karenpat, I enjoy Baroque but can not (or don't want to) give a lot of reasons.


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