# R. Strauss Opera fans?



## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

I'm familiar with much of Strauss's symphonic poems as well as Adriane auf Naxos and some of the music of Der Rosenkavalier but have never herd Salome or Elektra. It seems as though with Der Rosenkavalier and the operas after that, Strauss tried to incorporate a more traditional musical language until he blended Mozartian Classical with Wagnerian harmonies. I wonder if anyone has views on their favorite Strauss opera and can help me better elaberate on Strauss's stages as an artist?


----------



## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

My personal favourite of the Strauss-Hoffmanstahl collaboration is Elektra. The story is, of course, the starkest one you could imagine, after Sophocles. And the opera needs an exceptional singer in the title role. But I realized the beauty of the orchestal score only after having listened to it with headphones! Lately I have enjoyed opera only as DVD:s and the one to have is with Leonie Rysanek as Elektra. She never sang the role on stage but Karl Böhm asked her to do it for the video and what a performance it is! I do have Elektra with Birgit Nilsson (also a DVD) from the Met with Rysanek as her sister, Chrysothemis, for nostalgic reasons, but here Nilsson is definitely past her prime, although still impressive.

Ariadne auf Naxos comes second in my list. I like the concept of an opera within an opera, and there is so much wonderful music.

Der Rosenkavalier must come third. The presentation of the rose and the ending are simply fabulous, given good singers. But there is too much general hullabaloo for my taste.

Die Frau ohne Schatten is quite boring for quite a time, but the ending with singers like Nilsson, Rysanek, King and Berry (the Met, Böhm) is worth waiting, this one on CD only.

Die Ägyptische Helena has it's moments.

Salome, if we drop Hoffmanstahl, is very good indeed, the libretto based on Oscar Wilde's play. There has not been been any shortage of good recordings of this one. Nilsson, Caballe, Behrens, Studer skip to mind.

Die Schweigsame Frau would be interesting. I have heard two recordings of it on CD, but I'm still waiting for something better - perhaps with Natalie Dessay?

Daphne. I recently saw a performance (back to DVD:s) from La Fenice starring June Andersson and was quite impressed, never having heard her singing in German. Recommended.

Intermezzo. Strauss wrote the libretto for this himself and as I undestand it's supposed to reflect his personal home life. I have only heard one recording of it, with the late Lucia Popp as the wife. Not bad, but not from the top drawer.

Capriccio. For some reason I have never enjoyed this one, even with Schwartzkopf or te Kanawa.

Oh, I completely forgot Arabella! I have never liked it much, either, although it also has it's moments (Der Richtige...).

I would very much like to hear and see Die Liebe der Danae, but I have never crossed paths with it.

There are a couple more, but nothing important.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

Nice bumpage!

For further quality discussion of R. Strauss operas, there's this post by top-10 poster 
*jhar26*, wherein he shared his Strauss opera recordings recommendations.


----------



## Herkku (Apr 18, 2010)

Well, I'm certainly happy to see that someone else shares my admiration for the Böhm Elektra! It's indeed something quite special, not necessarily for the fainthearted.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I've been a huge fan of the Richard Strauss operas for many years, and think the lesser-known ones are very underrated. I've gotten to know these on CD in recent years. 
I wouldn't dismiss any of the 15 out of hand now that I've heard them all.
For Salome, you can't go wrong with the Solti or Karajan sets, and the Sinopoli and Ozawa ones have their virtues too. Try the classic Decca set from the early 50s conducted by Clemens Krauss, one of the composer's closest associates. 
The Solti Elektra has never been surpassed, but the Sawallisch and Boehm(DG) recordings
are also very good. 
For Der Rosenkavalier, both Karajan versions,Solti, Ercih Kleiber(father of Carlos) ,are the ones.
Ariadne auf Naxos : Sinopoli, Karajan,Kempe, Levine, Boehm(live from Salzburg in the 50s).
Die Frau ohne Schatten :Solti,Sawallsich, Boehm(DG) or Decca if you can find this one.
Arabella: Solti.Die Aegyptische Helena:Botstein or Dorati. Capriccio: Sawallisch,Boehm or Ulf Schirmer. Also try the Decca Daphne with Renee Fleming and Semyon Bychkov conducting.
The second Strauss opera Feuersnot(Fire Famine) with Heinz Fricke conducting is a real charmer. I forget the name of the label, but it's not a famous one.


----------



## Gloriana (Jun 6, 2010)

Count me in. I adore R. Strauss.
My favs his FOUR LAST SONGS, ELEKTRA ans DER ROSENKAVALIER

I cannot forget the Kupfer production: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=217194
and i can say that the last MET, Der Rosenkavalier with Fleming, Damrau, Koch was SUPERB!!!!


----------



## wirorg (Feb 17, 2016)

I love Rosenkavalier... I currently sing "Di rigori..." and it fascinates me, because it the whole part of the Italian Singer is so brief, but so hard. It sounds very easy and easy-going, but it is very demandful.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Herkku said:


> Capriccio. For some reason I have never enjoyed this one, even with Schwartzkopf or te Kanawa.


This is the only Strauss opera I have watched and it bored me and was like a very long joke with no punch line. Very disappointing ending.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> This is the only Strauss opera I have watched and it bored me and was like a very long joke with no punch line. Very disappointing ending.


Thank goodness, if you have to collect al those recordings _you would_ go bankrupt


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Thank goodness, if you have to collect al those recordings _you would_ go bankrupt


Right, especially since there are three Renée Fleming performances of it on DVD and none are cheap. I'd be out $75 to $100 for Renée Fleming alone.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Florestan said:


> This is the only Strauss opera I have watched and it bored me and was like a very long joke with no punch line. Very disappointing ending.


Try _Ariadne auf Naxos_. It's an opera within an opera and great fun.

Libretto

(video takes a while to load)


----------



## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

There was a time when Richard Strauss was one of my least favorite composers. I was not heavily into opera yet, and his tone poems mostly frustrated me.

I believe it was seeing _Ariadne auf Naxos_ that converted me; the ridiculous and the sublime, mixed in such a way that both work. Not long after that I realized that _Der Rosenkavalier_ had a similar life to it, that it was a subtler mix of the ridiculous and the sublime.

At this point _Elektra_ may be my favorite, but I still have a lot to explore. I'm barely familiar with _Die Frau ohne Schatten_ and _Arabella_, and I could use more time with _Salome_, too.

I don't know any of the others at all!


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Strauss is my favorite opera composer next to Verdi and Bellini; I can't even put into words how much his music thrills me. And hearing a Strauss opera live is a must, because in my experience even a modern recording can't quite convey the full impact of his orchestral music.

If there is a "best" opera by Strauss to begin with, I'm going to say it's ELEKTRA.


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

I am quite unfamiliar with Strauss. As far as conventional opera is concerned I am only well acquainted with Wagner and Verdi.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I like Elektra, Salome and Daphne.
Elektra is my favourite opera by Richard Strauss it is really great superdramatic and really good music. It has everything an opera should have. Strange that there are so many great operas about Agamemnon and his family.
Salome not as good as Elektra but it is good anyway.
Daphne have some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard. 
I find the other ones really difficult to listen to.


----------



## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Still remember the first time I heard "Allein! Weh, ganz allein" (Birgit Nilsson.) A very nice lady played it for me in a listening booth in a music shop. An absolute Stunner. The music wasn't bad either  Elektra has been my favorite ever since, Salome not far behind.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> Strauss is my favorite opera composer next to Verdi and Bellini; I can't even put into words how much his music thrills me. And hearing a Strauss opera live is a must, because in my experience even a modern recording can't quite convey the full impact of his orchestral music.
> 
> If there is a "best" opera by Strauss to begin with, I'm going to say it's ELEKTRA.


Strauss is my second favourite opera composer after Wagner and it is too hard to pick a favourite opera from his canon. I wouldn't be without any of them although I might, if forced to, go for Die Frau Ohne Schatten. Closely followed by Rosenkavalier, Ariadne and Capriccio, then Salome and Elektra.


----------



## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

linz said:


> I'm familiar with much of Strauss's symphonic poems as well as Adriane auf Naxos and some of the music of Der Rosenkavalier but have never herd Salome or Elektra.


Then you've never heard his two best operas - I suggest you rectify the situation at your earliest opportunity! Musically and dramatically, Elektra and Salome are magnificent from the first bar to the last.


----------



## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Strauss is my second favourite opera composer after Wagner and it is too hard to pick a favourite opera from his canon. I wouldn't be without any of them although I might, if forced to, go for Die Frau Ohne Schatten. Closely followed by Rosenkavalier, Ariadne and Capriccio, then Salome and Elektra.


Strauss is also my second favourite composer. I would say Elektra is his greatest opera. Hearing Thielemann conduct it in Dresden was certainly an experience. Yet I would say Der Rosenkavalier is my favourite, yet I prefer the version that is cut. Favourite recording of Elektra is Boehm and Rosenkavalier is Karajan's first recording.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Right, especially since there are three Renée Fleming performances of it on DVD and none are cheap. I'd be out $75 to $100 for Renée Fleming alone.


Now you know where my money's going......:lol:
But.. there's no price on good art


----------



## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

top 5 -

1. Salome
2. Elektra
3. Die Frau ohne Schatten
4. Der Rosenkavalier
5. Ariadna auf Naxos


----------



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Rosenkavalier has some of the most beautiful, sublime moments in any opera, but unless you have supratitles or subtitles on a DVD it can be tedious for a non German speaker. Much of it is vocal dialogue, not "aria" like at all. Elektra is the most powerful opera that there is IMHO. Nilsson, Varnay and Rysekek are my favorites. Jessye Norman singing Ariadne and The Four Last Songs as well as other Strauss lied are all spectacular!!!!


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I have had trouble really getting into Rosenkavalier to be honest, though there are some lovely parts. I've not been able to sit through Capriccio at all.

I just started Elektra last night and I look forward to hearing more! Daphne is wonderful, I also like Ariadne au Naxos and Friedenstag quite a bit.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I've just finished listening to an absolutely brilliant Salome. Live from Salzburg in 1977 with Behrens, Van Dam and Karajan conducting the VPO. It is light years ahead of the commercial studio recording with the same leads. Behrens is astonishing and this live recording treats Van Dam's voice much more kindly than in the studio. The supports are also more than adequate. This is now probably my first choice live Salome and in my top three anyway.


----------



## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

I am a fan, no question about it.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Rosenkavalier has some of the most beautiful, sublime moments in any opera, but unless you have supratitles or subtitles on a DVD it can be tedious for a non German speaker. Much of it is vocal dialogue, not "aria" like at all. Elektra is the most powerful opera that there is IMHO. Nilsson, Varnay and Rysekek are my favorites. Jessye Norman singing Ariadne and The Four Last Songs as well as other Strauss lied are all spectacular!!!!


Funnily enough, now that I know it so well, I don't find *Der Rosenkavalier* tedious, though some of the Baron Ochs stuff can get on my nerves a bit (with or without surtitles). On the other hand, though I quite liked *Elektra* when I was younger, it now sounds to me like a load of women just screaming at each other. I find it hard to take. :lol:


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> it now sounds to me like a load of women just screaming at each other. I find it hard to take. :lol:


I thought that was the appeal of Elektra.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Rosenkavalier has some of the most beautiful, sublime moments in any opera, but unless you have supratitles or subtitles on a DVD *it can be tedious for a non German speaker*. Much of it is vocal dialogue, not "aria" like at all. Elektra is the most powerful opera that there is IMHO. Nilsson, Varnay and Rysekek are my favorites. Jessye Norman singing Ariadne and The Four Last Songs as well as other Strauss lied are all spectacular!!!!


To me it's just tedious!


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> To me it's just tedious!


That kind of sums up all of Donizetti, Rossini, Bellini and great swathes of Verdi and Mozart for me! Whereas I find nothing at all tedious in Richard Strauss. :tiphat:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> That kind of sums up all of Donizetti, Rossini, Bellini and great swathes of Verdi and Mozart for me! Whereas I find nothing at all tedious in Richard Strauss. :tiphat:


Oh dear! Poor you!


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Oh dear! Poor you!


Au contraire! My sympathies are entirely with you!


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The name "Strauss" has three "S"es. They stand for "sophisticated," "sensational," and "schmaltzy."


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> The name "Strauss" has three "S"es. They stand for "sophisticated," "sensational," and *"schmaltzy."*












Of course, any less "excessively sentimental" and the name "Strauss" would have to start with a 'W' for "elephantine."


----------



## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

Salome and Electra make for riveting evenings in the theatre where if it's a good production you can cut through the atmosphere with a knife. But for casual, relaxed listening at home they can't compete with the likes of Der Rosenkavlier, Ariadne, Capriccio, Daphne and Arabella all of which contain copious amounts of glorious music. Richard Strauss declared himself as not a first rank composer. In my humble opinion he was definitely wrong.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'll take you on in a spelling bee any day, Marschallin.

Elephants are wonderful animals, by the way.


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> *I'll take you on in a spelling bee any day, Marschallin.*


"Beauty: 'b' 'a' 'e' 'u' 't' 'y'- beauty."

"Glamour: 'g' 'l' 'a' 'm' '0' 'u' 'r' 'r'- glamour."

"Fashion: 'f' 'a' 's' 'c' 'h' 'i' '0' 'n'- fashion."

- I can go on.

But are the spelling bee judges really listening to anything I say? Or just _looking_?

They were in my pocket the minute I walked on _stage_, Valedictorian. . .

But to keep it topical and to honor King Richard II, let's play the Kempe's fanfares from "A Hero's Deeds in Battle."- for his sake and not mine. _;D_


----------



## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> *Funnily enough, now that I know it so well, I don't find Der Rosenkavalier tedious, though some of the Baron Ochs stuff can get on my nerves a bit (with or without surtitles). On the other hand, though I quite liked Elektra when I was younger, it now sounds to me like a load of women just screaming at each other. I find it hard to take.* :lol:












_Rosenkavalier_ goes from sublime to cute and back again- just hold the Ochs.

The ending of Act I, the Presentation of the Rose in Act II, and the trio at the end?

My Goddess!!

Is anything so captivatingly and piercingly gorgeous and sublime?


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

​Who can resist this wonderful recording, that glorious, rich warm Strauss voice by Ms. Fleming.:tiphat:


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Rosenkavalier_ goes from sublime to cute and back again- just hold the Ochs.
> 
> The ending of Act I, the Presentation of the Rose in Act II, and the trio at the end?
> 
> ...


Captivating and gorgeous? Indeed. Sublime? I tend more to think of things like the Mass in b-minor. Maybe my religious upbringing is showing.

But you've singled out the best parts (to which I'd add the italian singer's aria; I just like it). If we could only have a one-act listener's digest _Rosenkavalier_ about a cougar, her first crow's feet, and two playful cubs, and deep-six that grunting hippopotamus, I'd happily buy an admission to the animal house. Of course I'd miss the Welephants.


----------



## Balthazar (Aug 30, 2014)

Pugg said:


> ​Who can resist this wonderful recording, that glorious, ric,h warm Strauss voice by Ms. Fleming.:tiphat:


Yes! Renée Fleming owns this role.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Au contraire! My sympathies are entirely with you!


Thanks but I feel that anyone who finds Mozart tedious needs it more than I do!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I haven't yet decided if Herr Strauss is one of those composers who I should like more than I do, or if he is amongst those who I like more than I ought to! I enjoy maybe about 75% of Rosenkavalier. I do like Salome, but not often. Elektra I have never liked. At one point after hearing a live Met performance of Die Frau Ohne Schatten, I thought that it was wonderful, but I never had the same feelings for it after that. Arabella, Capriccio ... ehhh! I admit that I have not heard Ariadne or Daphne. Now I do love his 4 Last Songs and many of the other orchestral lieder.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Thanks but I feel that anyone who finds Mozart tedious needs it more than I do!


Not all Mozart DavidA. Just some of his operas. Bastien and Bastienne, really? I have endless time for his chamber music and his symphonic output.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Not all Mozart DavidA. Just some of his operas. Bastien and Bastienne, really? I have endless time for his chamber music and his symphonic output.


Oh for goodness sake! Bastien and Bastienne was written when he was a 12 year-old kid. I don't think even the wildest Mozartians would hold it up as an example of great opera. If you must compare things, try putting one of the da Ponte operas up there.


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Oh for goodness sake! Bastien and Bastienne was written when he was a 12 year-old kid. I don't think even the wildest Mozartians would hold it up as an example of great opera. If you must compare things, try putting one of the da Ponte operas up there.


At what point did I say I didn't like any of the Da Ponte operas. I said great swathes certainly but I made no reference to any of his undoubtedly good stuff. I wasn't making any comparisons. You said you found Rosenkavalier tedious and I said the same about composers whose music I find, in the main, to be tedious to me. And I don't think Mozarts age is a bar to criticism of stuff I find tedious. My word you do get het up if anyone has a go at your likes. I thought the OP was for Strauss fans anyway. If you don't like it don't have a go at those who do. I don't have to justify my taste and neither do you. The last thing I would feel like doing is wasting my time having a pop at anyone's likes on say a Mozart thread.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> At what point did I say I didn't like any of the Da Ponte operas. I said great swathes certainly but I made no reference to any of his undoubtedly good stuff. I wasn't making any comparisons. You said you found Rosenkavalier tedious and I said the same about composers whose music I find, in the main, to be tedious to me. And I don't think Mozarts age is a bar to criticism of stuff I find tedious. My word you do get het up if anyone has a go at your likes. I thought the OP was for Strauss fans anyway. If you don't like it don't have a go at those who do. I don't have to justify my taste and neither do you. The last thing I would feel like doing is wasting my time having a pop at anyone's likes on say a Mozart thread.


Frankly you seem to be getting quite het up yourself. I just said I found Rosenkavalier tedious and your reply was to damn a whole raft of opera composers. As the title of this thread is *R Strauss fans?* that surely leaves room for people who don't find some of his works captivating to comment. Now if you mention the Four Last Songs that's when I go into raptures about the dear old card sharp!


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Frankly you seem to be getting quite het up yourself. I just said I found Rosenkavalier tedious and your reply was to damn a whole raft of opera composers. As the title of this thread is *R Strauss fans?* that surely leaves room for people who don't find some of his works captivating to comment. Now if you mention the Four Last Songs that's when I go into raptures about the dear old card sharp!


If tedious means being...... Ah, I can't be bothered.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Not all Mozart DavidA. Just some of his operas. Bastien and Bastienne, really? I have endless time for his chamber music and his symphonic output.


Then the comparison should be Guntram, surely, not Der Rosenkavalier.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Then the comparison should be Guntram, surely, not Der Rosenkavalier.


Though Strauss was 30 when it was premiered, about the same age as Mozart when *Le Nozze di Figaro* was premiered.

Just as a by the by, Korngold was only 23 when *Die tote Stadt*, a much finer opera, IMO, than *Guntram* was first performed. Composers develop at different rates of course.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Personally I am neither a Strauss fan, nor a Strauss hater. I like some of his works but not all, and I find there are bits I find tedious in even the ones I like.

I'm prepared to put up with the slightly boring parts of *Der Rosenkavalier* (mostly to do with Baron Ochs) for the gorgeous music he wrote for the three female protagonists.

*Salome* I love from beginning to end.
*Elektra*, as I've mentioned above, I just can't take anymore. Just a load of hysterical women screaming at each other.
I pretty much like the whole of *Ariadne auf Naxos*.
*Arabella* too, apart from all that silly Fiakermilli stuff. 
And finally I really enjoy *Capriccio*, though I find the Italian singers a bit tedious. It does have one of the most glorious closing scenes in all opera, especially as sung by Schwarzkopf. 
The rest I don't know well enough to comment on.


----------



## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Though Strauss was 30 when it was premiered, about the same age as Mozart when *Le Nozze di Figaro* was premiered.
> 
> Just as a by the by, Korngold was only 23 when *Die tote Stadt*, a much finer opera, IMO, than *Guntram* was first performed. Composers develop at different rates of course.


True, and Strauss didn't really succeed (in creating an opera that survived in the repertory, for a measurement that is primarily objective) until his third attempt.

By that same measure, I suppose that Mozart's first full success was Idomeneo, which was, like Korngold's Die tote Stadt, composed in his early 20s.

As for my own take on Strauss, I can certainly appreciate his fluidity and talent for handling lush orchestral palette, but something about his style is a turn-off for me, and I don't generally turn to his music, orchestral or operatic.


----------



## JLi (Jan 31, 2018)

Elektra and Salome are my two favorites. I also like Rosenkavalier, Ariadne, and Der Frau ohne Schatten.


----------



## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

JLi said:


> Elektra and Salome are my two favorites. I also like Rosenkavalier, Ariadne, and Der Frau ohne Schatten.


_Die_ Frau ohne Schatten


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

JLi said:


> Elektra and Salome are my two favorites. I also like Rosenkavalier, Ariadne, and Der Frau ohne Schatten.


Der Rosenkavalier


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Are we not getting just a little pedantic here people? I think we got the gist of what was being said. I'm just glad that JLi likes Strauss operas!


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Right. Strauss fan here. Third time today I've tried to post; computer crashed. Huzzah! Briefly: Strauss is famous, but most of his operas are too little known. Like Massenet, his most famous operas (_Salome, Elektra, Rosenkavalier_) overshadow the rest of his work; his neglected operas contain gems, and many of them should be in the mainstream repertoire. Imaginative orchestration, beautiful writing for the voice, nuanced characterization, and theatrically interesting. A master of pastiche, who recreated opera tropes for a sophisticated 20th century audience, and in many ways better than Wagner, to whom he thought he ranked "Richard III".

_Guntram_: A prentice work, perhaps; influenced by (if not parodying) Wagner, but a beautiful overture: 




_Ariadne_: Opera buffa meets opera seria. Clever, with fine music - Zerbinetta's arch-coloratura aria (a nod to Herold's _Pré aux clercs_), "Es gibt ein Reich", and the Ariadne / Bacchus duet.

_FROSCH (Frau ohne Schatten)_: Strauss does _Magic Flute_ + Wagner. The Watchmen's chorus is lovely (



), and has a wonderful finale. Oh, and listen to the Suite: 




_Die Aegyptische Helena_: Strauss's "bel canto" opera. The plot, based on Euripides' _Helen_, is contortuplicated, but it has a fine soprano aria: 



Symphonic fragment: 




_Arabella_: My father's favorite opera. I find it "talky", but it has its moments.

_Friedenstag_: Strauss's anti-war opera. _Fidelio_ for the 1930s. Austere, powerful, and with an AMAZING finale: 



 (although better on the Boehm)

_Schweigsame Frau_: If it hadn't been for the ******* Nazis, and their mistreatment of the Jewish Zweig, this would be a 20th-century classic. It's Strauss's tribute to Rossini and Donizetti (_Don Pasquale_, via Jonson's _Epicoene_); one of Strauss's warmest scores, with fine ensembles, and a lovely bass aria: 



. If you haven't seen it, go and watch the 1971 Munich production, with Reri Grist (yes, I have a crush): 




_Daphne_: Straussian treatment of a Baroque opera staple. One of his most Wagnerian operas. The Transformation Scene is luminous: 




I've heard _Feuersnot, Intermezzo, Danae, Capriccio_, but don't know them well enough to comment. _Danae_ does, though, have this: 



(And symphonic fragment: 



)

_Elektra_ suite: 




Oh, and Uncyclopedia has a parody of Strauss: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Strauss


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

NickFuller said:


> Right. Strauss fan here. Third time today I've tried to post; computer crashed. Huzzah! Briefly: Strauss is famous, but most of his operas are too little known. Like Massenet, his most famous operas (_Salome, Elektra, Rosenkavalier_) overshadow the rest of his work; his neglected operas contain gems, and many of them should be in the mainstream repertoire. Imaginative orchestration, beautiful writing for the voice, nuanced characterization, and theatrically interesting. A master of pastiche, who recreated opera tropes for a sophisticated 20th century audience, and in many ways better than Wagner, to whom he thought he ranked "Richard III".
> 
> _Guntram_: A prentice work, perhaps; influenced by (if not parodying) Wagner, but a beautiful overture:
> 
> ...


I have to agree pretty much with everything you say. I went to London a couple of years ago and made my wife sit through FROSCH with the late Johan Botha as the emperor. I loved it but I'm not sure my spouse was too enamoured. It, Ariadne, Rosenkavalier, Salome, Capriccio and Elektra are my absolute favourites, but I'm pretty fond of the rest and you're spot-on about Schweigsame Frau - a neglected masterpiece.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I like several of Strauss' operas, but don't love them on the whole. If that makes sense. He has several where there are beautiful bits but don't work on the whole for me: *Rosenkavalier, Capriccio *for examples.

Some I have not quite wrapped my brain around and require further listening for a good assessment: D*ie Frau, Ariadne & Die schweigsame Frau* for example.

*Daphne, Elektra, Salome*, and *Arabella* I like. Though to be fair, Salome took some work so my opinions could continue to shift on the others too. *Die ägyptische Helena* is a top-5 Strauss opera for me, but barely comes on the radar when the critics and general opera chit-chat occurs.

I wish Strauss had more extended orchestral preludes in his opera. And with German opera, Wagner even has me looking for that! Strauss seems to burst right into action which I imagine is enjoyable onstage, but a good orchestral opening really helps get me in the proper mindset for listening.

While he is certainly more uneven for me than most other opera composers that I like, I really do feel Strauss is worth the time, and while not every opera works for me, I enjoy exploring his output.


----------



## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

NickFuller said:


> Oh, and Uncyclopedia has a parody of Strauss: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Strauss


This is hilarious. I think I'm going to have to use these synopses whenever someone asks me about the plot of a Strauss opera in the future.


----------



## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Sonata said:


> I like several of Strauss' operas, but don't love them on the whole. If that makes sense. He has several where there are beautiful bits but don't work on the whole for me: *Rosenkavalier, Capriccio *for examples.
> 
> Some I have not quite wrapped my brain around and require further listening for a good assessment: D*ie Frau, Ariadne & Die schweigsame Frau* for example.
> 
> ...


Despite being a huge Strauss fan, I have not seen or heard all of his operas. I can say the following:

*Der Rosenkavalier*: I absolutely adore acts one and two, and get them completely. A quite heartbreaking tale of the aging Marschallin letting her young lover go, recognizing that he deserves to love someone younger than she. Where I get a little lost is the act three scene in the inn with Octavian dressed up as Mariandel. It's pure farce. At least until the Marschallin arrives to bring some gravity back to the piece and restore the story line. I've not noticed any failing in the music.

*Ariadne auf Naxos*: A tale of the clash of high and low art. To me, the composer is saying, don't think too highly of what it is that I do. High opera is no greater or lesser than a vaudeville act. Each have something to tell us about the human condition.

My favourite Strauss operas are Salome, Der Rosenkavalier, Die Frau Ohne Schatten, and Elektra. Probably in that order. A well-performed Elektra is a stunning spectacle. I am still working my way through the lesser-performed operas.


----------



## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> Are we not getting just a little pedantic here people? I think we got the gist of what was being said. I'm just glad that JLi likes Strauss operas!


All in good fun, Barbebleu. Though reading _Der_ Frau did have me thinking of a rather muscular and hirsute woman with a handlebar moustache.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

This thread is pretty ancient but forgive me - I'm a recently joined member and am still catching up.

Personally, I rate Richard Strauss as one of the greatest opera composers, certainly of the early 20th century and arguably overall - and I write that as an avid opera fan, with thorough enjoyment of composers as wide apart as Gluck, Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, Janacek - is that enough to qualify?

Following his two earliest operas (the first far too heavily influenced by Wagner and the second interesting but not very memorable), Electra and Salome (my personal favorites) represented his most "progressive" in terms of musical structure. There are several magnificent recordings of these operas on vinyl and CD but for anyone not familiar with them. the DVDs have much to offer by portraying the action as well as the music. For example the Rysanek/Varnay Electra under Bohm is excellent. Ditto the Teresa Stratas Salome who, depending on the listener's point of view may not be quite of the spine-tingling class of singing as say, Hildegard Behrens or Luba Welisch but still extremely good.

Strauss's following operas were more "romantic" and several, like Der Rosenkavalier, were intentionally funny and is a good place to start for anyone not familiar with Strauss. Again, there are numerous fine recordings but for me, there are few to match the glorious singing and endless melodies in the Elisabeth Schwarzkopf/ Christa Ludwig/ Otto Edelmann and Teresa Stich-Randall version.

Elsewhere in one of these opera forums. someone made the comment that Arabella was "too much talk and little singing". If any newcomer to the work is dissuaded by this, perhaps listening to the complete opera might be deferred until the "highlights" have been absorbed because there is truly incredibly beautiful music here.

I may be screamed at by suggesting that Schwarzkopf was sent to Earth specifically to sing Richard Strauss but just listen to the "Scenes from Arabella" on The Columbia recording with Matacic conducting the Philharmonia 33CX1226

For an excellent review of the Strauss operas and performers, see : https://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/richard-strauss-the-operas


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

aussiebushman said:


> I may be screamed at by suggesting that Schwarzkopf was sent to Earth specifically to sing Richard Strauss but just listen to the "Scenes from Arabella" on The Columbia recording with Matacic conducting the Philharmonia 33CX1226


Not by me. Schwarzkopf excels in Strauss. I'd also add her Ariadne and peerless Countess Madeleine, not to mention her superb recordings of the _Vier letzte Lieder_, and some of the orchestral songs.


----------



## lele23 (Sep 1, 2016)

My trinity of opera composers is Handel, R. Strauss, Rossini.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Not by me. Schwarzkopf excels in Strauss. I'd also add her Ariadne and peerless Countess Madeleine, not to mention her superb recordings of the _Vier letzte Lieder_, and some of the orchestral songs.


Nor me. As far as I'm concerned she's one person in the Soprano Holy Trinity, the others being Callas and De los Angeles.

N.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Nor me. As far as I'm concerned she's one person in the Soprano Holy Trinity, the others being Callas and De los Angeles.
> 
> N.


Mine too. Walter Legge dreamed of one day featuring all three in a recording. I believe he considered a *Don Giovanni* with Callas as Anna, Schwarzkopf as Elvira and De Los Angeles as Zerlina, but the closest he ever came was the recording of *Turandot* with Callas as the Princess and Schwarzkopf as Liu.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

GregMitchell said:


> Not by me. Schwarzkopf excels in Strauss. I'd also add her Ariadne and peerless Countess Madeleine, not to mention her superb recordings of the _Vier letzte Lieder_, and some of the orchestral songs.


I guess that I'm in a minority, but for me, Schwarzkopf's voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard. And I've been trying to appreciate her for 40-plus years....


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

wkasimer said:


> I guess that I'm in a minority, but for me, Schwarzkopf's voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard. And I've been trying to appreciate her for 40-plus years....


I suspect you are indeed a rarity. Most people who dislike her object to her musical personality - what they consider an arch manner, an air of knowing sophistication, or a tendency to overinterpret - not to her vocal timbre. I understand those objections, but I hear an extremely intelligent artist with a beautiful voice, one of those great German sopranos who seemed so abundant up until the 1960s but seem scarce now.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

wkasimer said:


> I guess that I'm in a minority, but for me, Schwarzkopf's voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard. And I've been trying to appreciate her for 40-plus years....


Of course you are completely entitled to your opinion but I for one could not disagree more. It is a beautiful voice and the thrilling range and controlled vibrato makes it unmistakable. Please do listen to her "four last songs" as well as to the Arabella highlights I mentioned earlier, In Rosenkavalier the "arch manner" mentioned by Woodduck adds significantly to her interpretation of the Marschallin

Speaking of diverse opinions, am I the only one here who does not like the voice of Callas? A great actress, yes. Fine interpretations of the roles, yes. But the voice per se? Despite good legato, she wobbled and seemed incapable of hitting and holding a high note.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

aussiebushman said:


> Speaking of diverse opinions, am I the only one here who does not like the voice of Callas? A great actress, yes. Fine interpretations of the roles, yes. But the voice per se? Despite good legato, she wobbled and seemed incapable of hitting and holding a high note.


No, plenty of people have reservations about the voice of Callas. But we must distinguish between the basic voice and the technical problems which developed after the early 1950s. "Incapable of hitting and holding a high note" isn't an accurate description of those problems in any case. Have you listened to her recordings made before the difficulty with high notes arose? The first Tosca, the first Lucia, the Puritani? The live Macbeth and early Medeas? Whether you like her vocal timbre or not, here's nothing tentative or "incapable" about her singing when her voice was in its prime.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

aussiebushman said:


> Speaking of diverse opinions, am I the only one here who does not like the voice of Callas? A great actress, yes. Fine interpretations of the roles, yes. But the voice per se? Despite good legato, she wobbled and seemed incapable of hitting and holding a high note.


Well, as Woodduck points out, you clearly haven't heard any of the recordings she made when the voice was still at its peak, and she could hold a firm, ringing Eb throughout the orchestral postlude to the Act II Ensemble in *Aida*. In any case, if she was merely a great actress, it would not explain why her records still outsell those of any other soprano, over 50 years after she appeared on the operatic stage.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

I'll take your advice and return to the earlier Callas recordings in my collection. Adverse reaction to her later work has dissuaded me from hearing these for many years

Happy to be re-educated!


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Another case of silence is golden.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

I'll ignore the last post that was presumably directed at me.

To the others- I am admonished! I dug out my copy of Tito Gobbi's memoirs for his references to Callas and others of his wonderful career. His comments about Callas include:

"electrifying, brilliant beauty and sheer magic"
"Faultness dramatic and musical instincts"

He also praises Zinka Milanov, Maria Canigula and Ljuba Wellisch, for whom I have recordings..


----------



## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

I don't have anything to say about Strauss singers, but I loved Karita Mattila in the Met's Salome, she was weird and mean and sort of juvenile. Just the way she held her face communicated so much about what her indulgent, bougie upbringing has done to her. She was like a sociopath waiting to blossom, and that uncertainty made it difficult to feel solidly one way or another. I also loved Renée Fleming in Capriccio, which is the only other Strauss opera I've seen, but again, the face makes the part - she just _looks _intelligent, worldly, and capable enough to not just be someone's wife, which is obviously an aspect required to make her the pillar of the show. The production seemed a little stodgy, though, like it was afraid to trust that the audience would be enthusiastic about following the protracted discourse, so it kept stooping to mediocre comedy.


----------



## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

You need to watch the DVD of Salome with Theresa Stratas. She may not be the best Salome ever but she is very good and looks the part. One shudders to think how some sopranos, regardless of vocal attributes would look playing the role of a love-crazed teenager in the dance of the seven veils!


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I suspect you are indeed a rarity. Most people who dislike her object to her musical personality - what they consider an arch manner, an air of knowing sophistication, or a tendency to overinterpret - not to her vocal timbre.


I think that it's all of a piece - the voice itself seems prisoner to the iron grip that she exerts on it. I'm a big believer in "art that conceals art" - musical expression that sounds spontaneous, even when it isn't anything of the sort - and to my ears, Schwarzkopf represents the opposite pole.


----------



## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

aussiebushman said:


> Of course you are completely entitled to your opinion but I for one could not disagree more. It is a beautiful voice and the thrilling range and controlled vibrato makes it unmistakable.


Oh, it's certainly a unique and instantly recognizable voice. I only take issue with the "beautiful" descriptor.



> Please do listen to her "four last songs" as well as to the Arabella highlights I mentioned earlier,


What makes you think that I haven't, and many times? I've tried all three of her VLL recordings (Ackermann, Karajan, Szell) repeatedly over the years (and I still perversely keep them on the shelf), as well as many, many of her other recordings. It's impossible to listen to Mozart and Strauss operas and not be exposed to her now and then. I sometimes change my opinion of various singers and performances, and keep hoping that one day I'll be able to join the choir of praise for Schwarzkopf, but it looks like I may be hopeless.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

wkasimer said:


> I think that it's all of a piece - the voice itself seems prisoner to the iron grip that she exerts on it. I'm a big believer in "art that conceals art" - musical expression that sounds spontaneous, even when it isn't anything of the sort - and to my ears, Schwarzkopf represents the opposite pole.


I've heard that argument so many times, that I always think there must be some truth in it. Only I don't hear it. I really don't. I hear a beautiful voice, and great musical intelligence put at the service of the composer. Her Marschallin I find more moving than any other I've come across, and it's that very specificity that works for me.

On the other hand, I've been recommended many performances from other singers that I find merely bland. Kiri's VLL is a case in point. To me it's just a lovely voice gliding through the music. It makes no impression at all; not to me at least.


----------



## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Does anyone remember reading a superb sci-fi story where Richard Strauss is reincarnated by an advanced civilisation absolutely crazy about his music? They beg him to compose a new opera and provide him with everything he needs. He conducts the premiere and at the end of Act I the audience goes nuts with enthusiasm. As he's conducting Act II he's suddenly aware that something is wrong although the audience give him a tremendous ovation. During Act III he realises that his opera is absolute rubbish. At the end of the story it's explained to him that he's not a famous composer but a simple butcher who's been used as an experiment.
I always thought the author of that story didn't like the music of Strauss much.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

David Phillips said:


> Does anyone remember reading a superb sci-fi story where Richard Strauss is reincarnated by an advanced civilisation absolutely crazy about his music? They beg him to compose a new opera and provide him with everything he needs. He conducts the premiere and at the end of Act I the audience goes nuts with enthusiasm. As he's conducting Act II he's suddenly aware that something is wrong although the audience give him a tremendous ovation. During Act III he realises that his opera is absolute rubbish. At the end of the story it's explained to him that he's not a famous composer but a simple butcher who's been used as an experiment.
> I always thought the author of that story didn't like the music of Strauss much.


Given that _Salome_ ends with a beheading and _Elektra_ with two ax murders, the idea of Strauss as a butcher has a certain resonance.


----------



## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

I think the story you're talking about is A Work of Art by James Blish.


----------



## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks for the reminder - I lost my copy of 'Cities in Flight', where this story appears, ages ago and couldn't remember the title or who wrote it. I've ordered a new copy which, hopefully, I can hang on to.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

If memory serves, Strauss realizes at the end that his great triumph is nothing but a rehash of music he wrote in his first life. Was that really in _Cities in Flight_?

Answer: No. "_A Work of Art_ is a science fiction short story by American writer James Blish. It was first published in the July 1956 issue of Science Fiction Stories with the title "Art Work". It has often been anthologized, appearing in _The Worlds of Science Fiction_ and _The Golden Age of Science Fiction_, among others."


----------



## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

KenOC said:


> If memory serves, Strauss realizes at the end that his great triumph is nothing but a rehash of music he wrote in his first life. Was that really in _Cities in Flight_?
> 
> Answer: No. "_A Work of Art_ is a science fiction short story by American writer James Blish. It was first published in the July 1956 issue of Science Fiction Stories with the title "Art Work". It has often been anthologized, appearing in _The Worlds of Science Fiction_ and _The Golden Age of Science Fiction_, among others."


You're quite right - I first read the story in Kingsley Amis's anthology, 'The Golden Age of Science Fiction' which I must also hunt down.


----------

