# Recommend me a Beethoven Symphonies set.



## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

I have the Symphony set conducted by Herbert Blomstedt and performed by Staatskapelle Dresden. While it is certainly a very satisfactory set of recordings, I would like to expand my Beethoven repertoire.

I'm looking for a set that is close to what Beethoven wrote down, but not necessarily HIP. I want to, as much as possible, be able to hear each instrument clearly. I'm considering the set by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Hogwood. How is this one? Any other recommendations?

As always, thanks.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Commendable.

The "tradition" of performing Beethoven changes constantly. We can't know what Beethoven heard in his head as he wrote, but it would be great to have the composer's imprimatur on some set of recordings -- "Approved by Beethoven".

Some will argue that the "original instruments" versions are better; others will assert that Beethoven probably heard sounds well beyond the instrument limitations of his day. (There seems to be evidence of this in the way he composed for piano, and how he added new instrumentations to orchestra -- piccolo and contrabassoon to the Fifth Symphony, for instance.) I believe that today's musicians are better trained players and more competent overall than were the musicians Beethoven worked with. I think the composer would be astounded to hear a modern symphony orchestra playing his music.

Recall, too, that a lot of music Beethoven wrote was done so while he suffered from severe hearing loss, so he never really heard, say, the Ninth Symphony, a work which pushes the boundaries. Is there an orchestra of Beethoven's day that could actually do justice to that work?

The Hogwood set is good. Don't be hesitant about getting it. I will recommend Rudolf Kempe and the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra for a set of great Beethoven symphonies.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

A mixture of Karajan 1963 / 1977

1 & 2 - 1963

3 - either are good

4 - 1963

5 - either

6 - 1977

7 - 1977 

8 - either

9 - both are fine but 1977 is special


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

> Posted by SONNET


All that is true. With that in consideration I suppose that any sets that would be "approved by Beethoven" are those that sound good in general.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Declined said:


> I'm looking for a set that is close to what Beethoven wrote down, but not necessarily HIP. I want to, as much as possible, be able to hear each instrument clearly.


Ever consider that these two things might be in conflict with each other? In some less-well orchestrated scores, playing them "to the letter" inevitably means that some things will not end up being heard.

In any event, you are never going to hear things as Beethoven did, because the composer may have an ideal form of the work in his mind, but it's not going to be the same with every play-through. Every recorded version may be different, but the music is the same every time; go for the kind of recording that speaks to you personally.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Ever consider that these two things might be in conflict with each other?


Yes I have.



Mahlerian said:


> go for the kind of recording that speaks to you personally.


Will do.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

You might like Paavo Jarvi's conducting of the cycle. They're all available at YT to sample. Before buying of course.

Here's "Eroica"...


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2014)

I second Vaneyes suggestion. The Jarvi set has crystal clear sound and modern recording techniques along with excellent performances that are respectful of the composer's wishes.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

Some of the richest detailed set that I know is by *Osmo Vanska and the Minneapolis Symphony*. The sound that the BIS engineers got is simply remarkable:












> "All of the discs in this set have been reviewed individually, and in detail. Still, it's worth pointing out that this is unquestionably one of the great Beethoven cycles, and on SACD there's certainly none better. Osmo Vänskä manages to have the best of both worlds-an interpretive perspective enhanced by the latest scholarship, as performed by a great orchestra on a mission. And this is exactly what Beethoven needs: a point of view, and total commitment. There are no weak performances here. In the "Eroica" I was just a touch disappointed in the first movement when Vänskä's pursuit of the barely audible pianissimo threatened to become a mannerism, but that is about the only criticism possible to level at this set.
> 
> His Fifth blazes; the Seventh offers the apotheosis of excitement that never spins out of control. The early symphonies have charm and humor in abundance. The Fourth and Eighth reveal Beethoven's masterly command of movement and proportion with effortless enthusiasm. In the Sixth we find a perfect balance between programmatic description and symphonic logic. It's all capped by one of the great Ninths, with a perfectly timed Adagio and a gloriously sung finale. If you haven't been purchasing these discs as they were released, then get the box. It's one of the few cycles that maintains the highest standards all the way through, and the sonics are uniformly stunning."-David Hurwitz (ClassicsToday.com).


For HIP, my favorite is *John Eliot Gardiner and the Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique* (Archiv, 2010). Wonderfully priced:


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

> Posted by Alypius


Thanks. Gardiner seems a bit fast for me though.


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## opus55 (Nov 9, 2010)

You let this thread go on then you'll have 20 different recommendations, each valid for one reason or another 

I'd say go ahead with AAM Hogwood then expect to want more and more recordings.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I bought the John Eliot Gardiner version a week ago. I am thoroughly impressed, #3, 5, and 6 are outstanding. All are good. 
View attachment 45536


I already own the '63 HvK. No complaints there either.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

My sincere recommendations:

Symphony 3, 5 and 8 - Karajan with the Berlin Phil. 1963 (very powerful)

Symphony 5 and 7 - Carlos Kleiber and Vienna Phil.

Symphony 6 - Karl Bohm with Vienna Phil.

Symphony 9 - Karajan is good, but I like Barenboim with Berlin Staatskapelle too.

Generally, if you are looking for power and drive, Karajan is really excellent. His best is the Eroica in my opinion, hard to be topped. For more ethereal and relaxed works, Karajan is worse than others. That Kleiber disc of the 5th and the 7th is highly recommended.

Another set which is good is the Gardiner with Orchestre Revolutionnaire et Romantique set. It is a HIP and the orchestra is leaner, so it serves really well for a "change" listening, where you don't want Beethoven to take you on a roller coaster but want to listen to the notes.


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## Muse Wanderer (Feb 16, 2014)

It's been ages since I last listened to Beethoven's symphonies but here's my humble suggestion...

Symphonies 1, 2, 4, 8th - pick any from Karayan's 1963 or '77

Karayan's '63 for the 3rd and '63 or '77 for the 9th

Carlos Kleiber for symphonies 5 and 7 plus his live version of the 6th (truly impressive take)

Bruno Walter's 6th is the antithesis of Kleiber's rendition but highly recommended for its lyrical quality. 

I need to delve into HIP recordings I have at some point. I made the mistake of overdosing myself with these symphonies at the time of first listen. Something I am now very careful not to repeat with other works. I was even listening to good old LVB in my dreams! Now I feel like I am not yet ready to attentively listen to these works after virtually aurally memorising them.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

I think a lot of conductors forgot that Beethoven was a classical composer more than he was a romantic composer. Some of the tempos employed in many of the symphony cycles that people routinely recommend, e.g. Karajan, are way too slow, in my opinion. 

I also dislike the way Karajan drops repeats left, right and centre. He's by no means the only guilty party when it comes to this, I realise.

To be more specific, Bernstein's interpretation of Mvt.3 of the Choral symphony is absurdly slow. It sounds like someone's playing a tape at the wrong speed. Slowing this movement down does not give it extra pathos. If anything, it subtracts it.

To me, Beethoven's symphonies sound far better when played fairly fast - I don't, for example, find Gardiner too fast, although people often say they dislike his interpretations for that very reason. In my view, Gardiner's tempi are spot on.

As for the whole period instrument debate, I find that 'original instruments' work quite well except when it comes to the Ninth. The phrasing of the third movement - particularly at the beginning - is LvB exploring romantic expression and, to me, period instruments struggle to do this justice.

I rather like Abbado's cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic and, for when I want something even more 'historically informed', Mackerras with the Royal Liverpool Phil.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tempo said:


> I think a lot of conductors forgot that Beethoven was a classical composer more than he was a romantic composer. Some of the tempos employed in many of the symphony cycles that people routinely recommend, e.g. Karajan, are way too slow, in my opinion.
> 
> I also dislike the way Karajan drops repeats left, right and centre. He's by no means the only guilty party when it comes to this, I realise.
> 
> ...


Interesting comment on Karajan being too slow. When the 63 set came out it was criticised by some for being too fast! How fashions change.
For me Karajan just about gets things right. I was most disappointed with the new set from Chailly. The music is rushed off its feet despite wonderful orchestral playing and recording.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Since it hasn't been mentioned, I'll recommend Szell's set. I like his precise and unromantic approach to some of the symphonies, if only as a change. 

You can hardly go wrong, of course: there are many beloved versions out there. My only suggestion would be to buy something cheap rather than something expensive: many of the best sets sell at around $10.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Interesting comment on Karajan being too slow. When the 63 set came out it was criticised by some for being too fast! How fashions change.
> For me Karajan just about gets things right. I was most disappointed with the new set from Chailly. The music is rushed off its feet despite wonderful orchestral playing and recording.


Karajan's Beethoven "too fast"?! Really?

In his 1962 cycle, he took the second movement of the Eroica at 17 minutes. 13 to 14 minutes is closer to the mark.

The third movement of the Choral is 16.25 - when about 12 or 13 minutes sounds far better.

The only time Karajan is "fast" is when he gets through a movement quickly by dropping the repeats!

I like the Chailly, although he rejected Del Mar's critical edition, which is a little at odds with what is very much a HIP cycle otherwise.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

On the subject of the Vanska, I don't much like the dynamics. Some of the pianissimos he employs are completely over-the-top, for me.

I like the Jarvi cycle a lot more, although you have to be ok with a chamber orchestra. It doesn't, inevitably, have the full, symphonic sound that many people like with their Beethoven.

I think Herreweghe gets a lot right, as do Immerseel and Jan Willem de Vriend, although these two both require an appreciation of period instruments.

The second Mackerras cycle, with the SCO/SPO, is great IF you can tolerate the amount of audience noise that's present. It sounds more like a doctor's waiting room than a concert hall.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Am now listening to Beethoven's First Symphony with Sir George Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, it is not chopped liver. Better than some of the others mentioned.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

mitchflorida said:


> Am now listening to Beethoven's First Symphony with Solti and Chicago Symphony Orchestra, it is not chopped liver. Better than many of the others mentioned.


I remember how the old LP version of that recording blazoned that very phrase on the front cover: "It is not chopped liver!"

The golden age of classical music marketing.


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## EDaddy (Nov 16, 2013)

Solti and the CSO's tempo, especially in the first movement, absolutely_ kills me_. Too slow! The tempo of movement 1 has to be just so or it easily becomes too prodding and heavy footed. My humble/ not so humble opinion.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

I listened to Karajan and didn't find it interesting. How about Bruno Walter? Now that is a set to die for.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

I am also considering a new Beethoven set-I was under the impression that Harnoncourt COE Teldec would be a great idea-but so far not mentioned!


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

I'd suggest the Wand set as a good middle of the road option.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Yes. The Wand is fine. So is the Abbado. Any of the Karajan sets too.

It's really hard to go wrong. An embarrassment of riches!


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

jim prideaux said:


> I am also considering a new Beethoven set-I was under the impression that Harnoncourt COE Teldec would be a great idea-but so far not mentioned!


Yes, it's a good one. It's one of those chamber orchestra, HIP cycles that doesn't go so far as to put people off, perhaps because the tempos used aren't overly brisk and the orchestra doesn't sound too thin.

I believe this was one of the first cycles to introduce some of the changes recommended by Del Mar, but before Del Mar himself actually recommended them - Harnoncourt being something of a musicologist himself.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

> posted by jim prideaux


I don't know much about music theory, but Harnoncourt's interpretations always sound a bit quirky to me for some reason.


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

There is actually only one set, in my opinion, that is magnificent and incredible: the Karajan 1963. It captivates the listener with every note and the orchestra itself is wonderful. I thoroughly recommend it as an indispensable one.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Declined said:


> I don't know much about music theory, but Harnoncourt's interpretations always sound a bit quirky to me for some reason.


He tends to mix modern ideas with traditional ones and idiosyncratic decisions with populist ones.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

If you can find it, Schmidt-Isserstedt with the VPO.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

GGluek said:


> If you can find it, Schmidt-Isserstedt with the VPO.


http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Co...&sr=8-3&keywords=beethoven+Schmidt-Isserstedt

$398 dollars. No thanks.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

Good news, I can listen to Schmidt-Isserstedt for free on Spotify. Or actually $5 a month.


He is good but not earth-shaking. 


I am listening to Harnoncourt now, me like.


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

I have dozens of Beethoven's cycles and is hard to recommend only one, but if forced I would pick Paavo Jarvi's. The tempos are fast and the orchestra is reduced in size but uses modern instruments, so the sound is very detailed and you can hear things that are buried when using larger orchestras with 800 string instruments.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

julianoq said:


> The tempos are fast and the orchestra is reduced in size but uses modern instruments, so the sound is very detailed and you can hear things that are buried when using larger orchestras with 800 string instruments.


Seems like something I may like.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Ignore all other replies unless they are recommending JOS VAN IMMERSEEL CONDUCTING ANIMA AETERNA!!!! Extraordinarily musical playing, perfect balance and clarity, definitely closest to what Beethoven wrote.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

julianoq said:


> I have dozens of Beethoven's cycles and is hard to recommend only one, but if forced I would pick Paavo Jarvi's. The tempos are fast and the orchestra is reduced in size but uses modern instruments, so the sound is very detailed and you can hear things that are buried when using larger orchestras with 800 string instruments.


Paavo Järvi: best modern instrument version.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Ignore all other replies unless they are recommending JOS VAN IMMERSEEL CONDUCTING ANIMA AETERNA!!!! Extraordinarily musical playing, perfect balance and clarity, definitely closest to what Beethoven wrote.


I have indeed been considering that one.


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## mitchflorida (Apr 24, 2012)

I enjoy Harnoncourt's version the most. It seems more "musical" than the others, who seem to think Beethoven's Fifth is like Germany invading Poland 1939. Harnoncourt "understands" Beethoven in a way that the others don't.


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

Declined said:


> Seems like something I may like.


You can watch the performances on YouTube first. There is also a documentary made about this cycle called 'The Beethoven Project' that is quite good.

Immerseel's cycle is also quite good, one of my favorites on HiP instruments.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I have Szell's, it is very good!


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2014)

My first and unreserved recommendation is the Vanska cycle on BIS. The sonics are wonderful, and the performances are superb. Vanska does an outstanding job.

Gardiner's is a good HIP recording. For something different - think Beethoven on steroids - Immerseel's recording on Zig Zag is definitely worth hearing - not my number one pick but still pretty good.

Szell's recordings on Sony are also quite good with Cleveland, and I would recommend them as well. His recording of the 3rd, in particular, gets high praises.

Finally, the various recordings by Klemperer are also good, but not necessarily what you are seeking. Still - who wants only one set?

I also like von Karajan's 60's recordings on DG, especially the 9th. For the 9th, it is also worth your while to get Fricsay's incredible recording. One of the best out there.


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

DrMike said:


> My first and unreserved recommendation is the Vanska cycle on BIS. The sonics are wonderful, and the performances are superb. Vanska does an outstanding job.
> 
> Gardiner's is a good HIP recording. For something different - think Beethoven on steroids - Immerseel's recording on Zig Zag is definitely worth hearing - not my number one pick but still pretty good.
> 
> ...


It surprises me that so many people are coming in for the Vanska - and referencing the sonics as well.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tempo said:


> Karajan's Beethoven "too fast"?! Really?
> 
> In his 1962 cycle, he took the second movement of the Eroica at 17 minutes. 13 to 14 minutes is closer to the mark.
> 
> ...


Totally disagree about the ninth. Chailly rushes the thing. Karajan is wonderfully rapt.

Of course, at the end of the day, it is just opinion. I still have a fondness for Klemperer's uphill struggle for joy in the ninth and his magnificently truculent seventh, as well as his rustic sixth, lumbering peasants notwithstanding!


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

Alright. I've narrowed it down to Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Immerseel. At some point, I'll probably get those and more. The Vanska set certainly interests me. As does the Zinman set. But when I get paid on Friday I'll get order one of those from Amazon. Thanks for all your input.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Declined said:


> Alright. I've narrowed it down to Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Immerseel. At some point, I'll probably get those and more. The Vanska set certainly interests me. As does the Zinman set. But when I get paid on Friday I'll get order one of those from Amazon.  Thanks for all your input.


Hope you saw this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/R1L1EGKNY1ZC8X/ref=cm_pdp_sylt_title_2

Chailly and Immerseel were pretty new when this was put together. Chailly has gathered more plaudits since then, I think, and I agree.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Hope you saw this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/R1L1EGKNY1ZC8X/ref=cm_pdp_sylt_title_2
> 
> Chailly and Immerseel were pretty new when this was put together. Chailly has gathered more plaudits since then, I think, and I agree.


I didn't see it. Thanks.


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## Amusicman (Jul 3, 2014)

Szell with the Cleveland Symphony


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## tempo (Nov 8, 2012)

Don't get the Zinman. The guy takes the **** when it comes to the score.


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## Declined (Apr 8, 2014)

tempo said:


> Don't get the Zinman. The guy takes the **** when it comes to the score.


What does that mean?



Amusicman said:


> Szell with the Cleveland Symphony


I heard the samples on Amazon and it sounds good. So good, in fact, I will consider getting it eventually.

I went with Immerseel. I think that's the one I would like the most. I do not think I will be disappointed.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

weighed everything up-want something different to the 85/86 BPO and Herb performances so ordered the acclaimed Harnoncourt set........lets just wait and see-I always feel that my appreciation of Beethoven is jaded by too much exposure.....


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I find the Gunter Wand set the most satisfying. No HIP influences here.


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