# Parsifal



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Parsifal is the only major opera by Wagner that I have not heard yet. I started watching it on Met Player but I got bored and felt rather repulsed by the plot.

Since reading Magee's book "The Tristan Chord" I feel inspired to give it another go.

I'd like some recommendations for a DVD version and also to hear your opinions on the work.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I liked this one:










Jerusalem is good as always, three baritones make decent pack, Amfortas groans too much though. Kundry is good, but not very convincing as temptress, but for woman listener it's probably less important aspect and you will be compensated with Jerusalem's awesome artifical beard in last act.

Staging rocks.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

mamascarlatti, give the opera another chance. I'm certainly not predisposed to religious drama either, but Parsifal is the absolute summit of Wagner's craft and contains some of his most powerful, beautiful, and chilling music.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Parsifal is certainly not an easy nut to crack,but you should definitely keep with it,and it may grow on you. I don't think the plot is repellant at all.It's all about the redemption of the brotherhood of the Holy Grail and their leader,the disgraced Amfortas, through the holy fool Parsifal, and their relationship to the temptress Kundry,who was dooomed to wander eternally from incarnation to incarnation for having mocked and laughed at Christ during the crucifiction.
If you insist on an opera with plenty of swift,punchy action like Tosca, this is not what you want.
It's very slow moving,but once you get accustomed to it,it's not boring at all.
The CD recordings by Levine,Karajan, Barenboim,Knappertsbusch and Solti are all highly recommendable.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree the Met production is not the best Parsifal. The Bayreuth production mentioned above or the Nicolas Lehnhoff production from Baden Baden are the best in my book with Kent Nagano conducting. Its very good


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Parsifal is the only major opera by Wagner that I have not heard yet. I started watching it on Met Player but I got bored and felt rather repulsed by the plot.
> 
> Since reading Magee's book "The Tristan Chord" I feel inspired to give it another go.
> 
> I'd like some recommendations for a DVD version and also to hear your opinions on the work.


Parsifal is musically absolutely beautiful. It can't be avoided. It's sublime. It has a slow progression that becomes more and more gripping and culminates in some of the best music ever written by any composer. But the plot is weak and can be famously resumed in two words: incense and pretense.

Parsifal is better approached on CD and without the libretto. Just enjoy the spectacular music and don't bother with the plot.

Hans Knappertsbusch has recorded some of the best Parsifals, probably the best one is the 1962 Bayreuth recording (Philips). Another good one is the 1990 Barenboim with the Berlin State Opera. Karajan's recording for RCA in 1961 with the Vienna State Opera is superior to his recording for DG.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> Parsifal is the only major opera by Wagner that I have not heard yet. I started watching it on Met Player but I got bored and felt rather repulsed by the plot.


I'll be interested to follow your progress - I've never got anywhere with _Parsifal _either (though some time ago I realised that I probably wasn't a _Wagner_ fan at all, but more specifically, a _Ring_ fan - so my indifference to _Parsifal _ maybe isn't surprising).


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

So at this point I reckon I'm going with Aramis' recommendation. I'm hoping that Jerusalem will be demonstrating his thoughtful sensitive committed persona and not his smarmy uninterested "can't wait to get off the stage" one.

BTW has anyone bought that new Rienzi?


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm curious to see it,but I hear that it's been cut to the bone,and lasts only about two hours,despite the fact that it's over four hours long uncut. 
I became familiar with Rienzi,Wagner's third opera and first success back in the 70s with the EMI recording,now on CD conducted by the late Heinrich Hollreiser with the Staatskapelle,Dresden and Rene Kollo in the title role. This is the only studio recording of the opera so far;the others are live and heavily cut,except for the one conducted by the late Sir Edward Downes,which I haven't heard.
Rienzi of course,does not come anywhere near the greatness and sublimity of Wagner's mature operas, but it contains some very effective music and is well worth hearing. 
I'm hoping that the Met will do an uncut Rienzi sometime soon with perhaps Ben Heppner in the title role conducted by Levine or Christian Thielemann. But this may be a pipe dream.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I agree with Almaviva in that there are many good recordings. Parsifal is the best served Wagner opera in that respect. Rafael Kubelik's is a great underrated recording if you want great conducting and even tempi. Kna's mentioned above has several recordings and Goodall if you want it fairly slow. Boulez if you want a quick Parsifal.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Parsifal is musically absolutely beautiful. It can't be avoided. It's sublime. It has a slow progression that becomes more and more gripping and culminates in some of the best music ever written by any composer.


This +10char


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> But the plot is weak and can be famously resumed in two words: incense and pretense.


Absolutely disagree. It's a marvelously unified and coherent plot, and a fantastic distillation of the holy grail legends. In fact, with all do respect to the sheer creativity it took to synthesize the Germanic and Nordic mythologies into a cohesive and captivating story for _The Ring_, I think _Parsifal_ is that much more cohesive. Despite the fact that it's often maligned as a "religious" work, it ultimately deals with the same themes as his other mature works: redemption. It is only religious on a superficial level. If anything I would call it a spiritual work, with an intoxicating mix of eroticism.

But yes, the music is wonderful. A cooling breeze bearing exotic scents, and perfectly captures the reflectiveness of the drama. Unfortunately I can't recommend DVDs as I haven't seen any, but I would rank the audio recordings I've heard like this:

1. Knappertsbusch
2. Kubelik
3. Karajan
4. Solti


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

mamascarlatti said:


> So at this point I reckon I'm going with Aramis' recommendation. I'm hoping that Jerusalem will be demonstrating his thoughtful sensitive committed persona and not his smarmy uninterested "can't wait to get off the stage" one.


The Bayreuth DVD was back when he was young and energetic...... now if you get the MET DVD you'll see the much older and more tired Jerusalem, which is a big reason for staying away from it, despite its staging being more than marginally better than the Bayreuth DVD. Also, I know that many will dislike the wasteland production, but I highly recommend the Berlin Opera DVD for the simple reason that Matti Salminen is the best Gurnemanz ever, and it's almost always the Gurnemanz that's the weakest link of any Parsifal recording (it's near impossible to sing the roles of Parsifal and Kundy badly).


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

scytheavatar said:


> The Bayreuth DVD was back when he was young and energetic...... now if you get the MET DVD you'll see the much older and more tired Jerusalem, which is a big reason for staying away from it, despite its staging being more than marginally better than the Bayreuth DVD. Also, I know that many will dislike the wasteland production, but I highly recommend the Berlin Opera DVD for the simple reason that Matti Salminen is the best Gurnemanz ever, and it's almost always the Gurnemanz that's the weakest link of any Parsifal recording (it's near impossible to sing the roles of Parsifal and Kundy badly).


I would also mention that Matti Salminen is also compelling as Gurnemanz in the Baden Baden production


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Agree with some of the comments above, for DVD:

















I had the Levine MET Parsifal with Jerusalem, but much prefer the Horst Stein version above both singing and production was much more interesting and imaginative for me.

The new production shown is very modern and more abstract but in a very good way, very dramatic powerful images and besides Matti Salminen we also have Waltraud Meier!

For CD we must go back to those golden era singers and Knap:



This is a solid core group for me...........


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## johnnyx (Jan 3, 2007)

Parsifal...IMHO some of the greatest music ever composed. This is one of my favorite recordings:
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Bernd-Weikl/dp/B00009LW4Y


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

I purchased the Nagano on DVD (haven't watched it yet, unfortunately) mainly because the Lehnhoff production at the Lyric was mesmerizing. A more traditional presentation might be a better first choice. As noted above, Parsifal might be "better" on CD than DVD. For CDs I would echo the Barenboim and '62 Knappertsbusch offerings. I have the Naxos Historical restoration of the '51 Knappertsbusch on its way to me. Given the track record for these restorations I have fairly high expectations and I'm looking forward to replacing my well worn Richmond LPs.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I've ordered the Boulez CD from the library (the only copy they have) so will also try the "sit back and let it all wash over you" experience suggested by Alma. But usually with Wagner I find it more rewarding to know what is going on so would at least read the libretto before listening to scenes.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Can anyone recommend some of the best Parsifal highlights for someone who would very much like some sublime music but simply cannot shell out the money for a full album at this time?


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Sonata said:


> Can anyone recommend some of the best Parsifal highlights for someone who would very much like some sublime music but simply cannot shell out the money for a full album at this time?


You cannot go wrong with the three acts' preludes -- the first in particular, though the demonic 2nd and agonized 3rd are masterpieces as well. As for material within the opera, my favorites are the magnificent transformation scenes in Act I and Act III, Kundry's gorgeous quasi-aria "Ich Sah Das Kind," and basically anything Gurnemanz sings (which is a lot!). And the Good Friday music too, of course.

Give these links a listen!

Prelude Act I: 



Prelude Act III: 



Transformation Music Act I: 



Ich Sah Das Kind: 



Good Friday Music: 




Stokowski's symphonic syntheses from this opera are particularly good. I think he nails the Act III arrangement.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

Has anyone given the new Gergiev recording a try? It had good reviews in the UK but I am still very nervous with Gergiev doing Wagner having seen the awful Kirov ring.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The mariinsky's own label has just come out with a live Gergiev Parsifal with Gary lehmann and Violeta urmana; it's gotten very good reviews so far,and I definitely want to hear it.
I heard Gergiev conduct Parsifal on a Saturday met broadcast a few years ago and he impressed me as a conductor who has a genuine feeling for this composer.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

superhorn said:


> The mariinsky's own label has just come out with a live Gergiev Parsifal with Gary lehmann and Violeta urmana; it's gotten very good reviews so far,and I definitely want to hear it.
> I heard Gergiev conduct Parsifal on a Saturday met broadcast a few years ago and he impressed me as a conductor who has a genuine feeling for this composer.


I have bitten the bullet and purchased a copy and will let you know what I think when listen to it all.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I'd like some recommendations for a DVD version and also to hear your opinions on the work.


With Parsifal - Tristan too - the music itself is so powerful that the visuals sometimes add little to the experience... or even detract from it! If you stick to audio-only, you can't really go wrong with Knappertsbusch/Bayreuth '62 - still the best Parsifal on record IMO. Karajan's 1990 DG recording is certainly the most beautiful orchestrally, and arguably the best sung, but I find it less involving than either Knappertsbusch, Kubelik or Solti.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> With Parsifal - Tristan too - the music itself is so powerful that the visuals sometimes add little to the experience... or even detract from it!


I know exactly what you mean Reichstag! Sometimes I feel that no staged performance of Wagner, no matter how elaborate or visionary, will capture what the imagination can when listening to his music. This goes for the Ring in particular for me. By the way, welcome to the boards!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Thank you, Falstaft! It's nice to be here.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> With Parsifal - Tristan too - the music itself is so powerful that the visuals sometimes add little to the experience... or even detract from it! If you stick to audio-only, you can't really go wrong with Knappertsbusch/Bayreuth '62 - still the best Parsifal on record IMO. Karajan's 1990 DG recording is certainly the most beautiful orchestrally, and arguably the best sung, but I find it less involving than either Knappertsbusch, Kubelik or Solti.


Exactly! That's what I had said above - with the only difference of another Karajan recording - "Parsifal is better approached on CD and without the libretto. Just enjoy the spectacular music and don't bother with the plot. Hans Knappertsbusch has recorded some of the best Parsifals, probably the best one is the 1962 Bayreuth recording (Philips). Another good one is the 1990 Barenboim with the Berlin State Opera. Karajan's recording for RCA in 1961 with the Vienna State Opera is superior to his recording for DG."

And welcome to the board!:tiphat:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I can't help but feel that my recording of Tristan must be a poor one. I've heard so much raving about Tristan on here that I truly feel I must be missing something! I read along the first two acts with the libretto but that didn't help. Maybe it's the recording...


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Sonata said:


> I can't help but feel that my recording of Tristan must be a poor one. I've heard so much raving about Tristan on here that I truly feel I must be missing something! I read along the first two acts with the libretto but that didn't help. Maybe it's the recording...


I only "got" Tristan after watching it on DVD. In fact the first time I listened to it I disliked it so much that I was ready to give copy to the local library. I listened to it recently on the same CD and can't imagine what I was thinking before. So don't get discouraged.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I only "got" Tristan after watching it on DVD. In fact the first time I listened to it I disliked it so much that I was ready to give copy to the local library. I listened to it recently on the same CD and can't imagine what I was thinking before. So don't get discouraged.


T&I is a strong contender for best opera ever, if such category ever made any sense.
You're right, this is one that must be seen, unlike Parsifal. Isolde''s transformation from rageful to loving takes a soprano who can act, and Tristan's delirium is another moment that calls for strong acting. And since we've been talking about importance of operas in that other thread, T&I is a true divisor of waters so its importance is huge. Musically, moments like the Liebestod are hard to be matched in all of music.

Softly and gently
how he smiles,
how his eyes
fondly opens
--do you see, friends?
do you not see?
how he shines
ever brighter.
Star-haloed
rising higher
Do you not see?

to drown,
to founder -
unconscious -
utmost rapture!

Mild und leise
wie er lächelt,
wie das Auge
hold er öffnet
--seht ihr's, Freunde?
Seht ihr's nicht?
Immer lichter
wie er leuchtet,
stern-umstrahlt
hoch sich hebt?
Seht ihr's nicht?

ertrinken,
versinken, -
unbewusst, -
höchste Lust!


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## scytheavatar (Aug 27, 2009)

Sonata said:


> I can't help but feel that my recording of Tristan must be a poor one. I've heard so much raving about Tristan on here that I truly feel I must be missing something! I read along the first two acts with the libretto but that didn't help. Maybe it's the recording...


So what recording of Tristan do you own? There's no shortages of great Isoldes, but good Tristans are extremely rare and most of the time it's the Tristan that's pulling the recording down. I recommend you to check out the Karajan or Pappano recordings for good Tristans, or the 1995 Müller Bayreuth DVD (don't get the Ponnelle one, the production is better but the cast is inferior).


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> With Parsifal - Tristan too - the music itself is so powerful that the visuals sometimes add little to the experience... or even detract from it!


Yeah, personally I've always found with opera -- any opera, not just those two -- that I don't need to view it to enjoy it. 90% of my opera experience comes from listening and following the drama with the libretto, and of Wagner's operas _The Ring_ is the only one I've seen on DVD.

I think John Culshaw expressed my experience quite well:

"The sense of being inside the drama is heightened by the absence of a visual element: the listener can hear the words and the music, he can hear where the characters are standing, and he can follow them when they move; but he has to create his own mental image of what they look like, and in what sort of setting they are moving. Instead of watching someone else's production, he is unconsciously creating his own."


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Poppin' Fresh said:


> Yeah, personally I've always found with opera -- any opera, not just those two -- that I don't need to view it to enjoy it. 90% of my opera experience comes from listening and following the drama with the libretto, and of Wagner's operas _The Ring_ is the only one I've seen on DVD.
> 
> I think John Culshaw expressed my experience quite well:
> 
> "The sense of being inside the drama is heightened by the absence of a visual element: the listener can hear the words and the music, he can hear where the characters are standing, and he can follow them when they move; but he has to create his own mental image of what they look like, and in what sort of setting they are moving. Instead of watching someone else's production, he is unconsciously creating his own."


Fine, if this is what rocks your boat, I respect your choice. But in my humble opinion you are limiting yourself, and diminishing the whole concept of opera. Opera is not lieder, is not a song cycle. Opera is an artform that combines music with drama AND acting AND staging AND costumes, etc. Sure, "someone else's production" often disappoints, but just as often enchants. Some of the best singers also have acting skills and can enhance the experience. Not always the case, granted, but it happens. So I think the best of both worlds is to proceed like you do, but *also* watch opera live or in TV or cinema broadcasts or on DVD or blu-ray discs.


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Fine, if this is what rocks your boat, I respect your choice. But in my humble opinion you are limiting yourself, and diminishing the whole concept of opera. Opera is not lieder, is not a song cycle. Opera is an artform that combines music with drama AND acting AND staging AND costumes, etc. Sure, "someone else's production" often disappoints, but just as often enchants. Some of the best singers also have acting skills and can enhance the experience. Not always the case, granted, but it happens. So I think the best of both worlds is to proceed like you do, but *also* watch opera live or in TV or cinema broadcasts or on DVD or blu-ray discs.


It's just another way of experiencing and enjoying opera. I wasn't saying it was the only way I enjoy opera, or even always the preferable way. Just that I don't _need_ the visual aspects to immerse myself in the drama, and often prefer my own imagination to anything that can be set on a stage.

I acknowledge that nothing can duplicate the overall effect of seeing an opera live in person, and I wish I had the time and finances to do so more often. I can and have enjoyed watching opera on DVD as well, though I usually find watching opera productions through a TV screen to be kind of...stale.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Poppin' Fresh said:


> It's just another way of experiencing and enjoying opera. I wasn't saying it was the only way I enjoy opera, or even always the preferable way. Just that I don't _need_ the visual aspects to immerse myself in the drama, and often prefer my own imagination to anything that can be set on a stage.
> 
> I acknowledge that nothing can duplicate the overall effect of seeing an opera live in person, and I wish I had the time and finances to do so more often. I can and have enjoyed watching opera on DVD as well, though I usually find watching opera productions through a TV screen to be kind of...stale.


OK, I got it, and certainly what you say is valid.
About the TV screen, it depends. Nowadays the technology is so vastly improved that a large screen TV with 1080p high definition and surround sound, and a good video director who picks the right camera angles and the right close-ups can deliver a quite striking experience. For example, the blu-ray disc of the recent Les Troyens in Paris with its smart staging and visual effects delivered by the mirrors and inclined floor make for a very enjoyable experience.


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

If you were 'repulsed' by the plot to Parsifal, stay _well away_ from Lohengrin.

*SPOILER*

In a nutshell, a woman breaks her marital vows with the son of Parsifal by having the gall to ask his name and origin, thus failing to uphold the perfect female piety and chastity that was demanded of her. The moral of the story is that humanity is morally 'frail' and that the Christ-like titular character cannot hope to inhabit such a 'flawed' human world and that you are better off dead than abandoned by a man you've barely known for five minutes.

So yeah, typical Wagner.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

jflatter said:


> I have bitten the bullet and purchased a copy and will let you know what I think when listen to it all.


Right have managed to get to listen to the Gergiev Parsifal. I have to say it is quite a decent effort. If you have seen previous posts of mine I was apprehensive about Gergiev doing a Parsifal recording. It has a mixture of an international cast in some of the roles whilst two of the Mariinsky company play Amfortas (Evgeny Nikitin) and Kingsor (Nikolai Putilin). Putilin was one of the rare sucesses in Mariinsky Ring as Alberich. Gary Lehman takes the title role and Violeta Urmana plays Kundry. Rene Pape plays Gurnemanz.

Pape gives a majestic account as Gurnemanz which is clear in tone and high on emotion and it is worth getting this recording for that alone. Lehman and Urmana are both very good in their roles and Urmana in particular gives Act 2 dramatic force. Putilin is a dark Klingsor, however I though Nikitin was the weak point as Amfortas.

Gergiev's tempi as with a lot of Parsifal recordings is on the slow side and the playing from the orchestra is of a high standard, although they are not helped by the quality of the sound recording (recorded I believe by same people who record the LSO Live series where there have been complaints about technical issues).

However if you are keen lover of this piece and want to add to your Parsifal collection this definately worth a listen.

I now have Bychkov's Lohengrin to listen to as I have finally got round to getting a copy.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

I have two Parsifals on DVD. I found it horribly boring...it is so long....I usually like Wagner, I love Tristan and the tetralogy, Lohengrin, Tanhaüser...I just do not like two things:

- Parsifal
- Master singers from Nürenberg, long and boring...


of course this is my personal opinion.

Martin PItchon


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I have two Parsifals on DVD. I found it horribly boring...it is so long....I usually like Wagner, I love Tristan and the tetralogy, Lohengrin, Tanhaüser...I just do not like two things:
> 
> - Parsifal
> - Master singers from Nürenberg, long and boring...
> ...


Parsifal has exquisite music. I don't care for all the over-the-top religious things, but the music is good.
On the other hand, I can't understand how would anybody find Mastersingers any less than absolutely fascinating. Long and boring? Wow! It's wildly entertaining, extremely interesting, completely captivating!

Of course this is my personal opinion.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Parsifal has exquisite music. I don't care for all the over-the-top religious things, but the music is good.


I haven't seen Parsifal (yet) and that seems a very good reason to keep my mouth shut in this thread (but now I won't). This book:

http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Operas-Ernest-Newman/dp/0691027161/ref=tmm_pap_title_0

in my opinion, has very interesting background information about the Parsifal legend and Wagner's sources; based on this, I'm not sure if "over-the-top religous" is the best label. (The book is written in a rather matter-of-fact, no-nonsense style, so perhaps not as quick a read as the latest Stephen King novel, but I liked it a lot.)

I personally also like Meistersinger a lot, but of course it's a long opera and tastes are different. I find it quite similar to my (current) favorite opera Rosenkavalier (I know, it should be the other way around, but I was exposed to them in this order). Both are labeled comedies and have some slapstick elements, but are really more touching than funny. In both cases, the text is very important. The Rosenkavalier final trio is for me a close relative of the Meistersinger quintet. (Both of them taken together have the perfect balance of high and low voices.)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> I haven't seen Parsifal (yet) and that seems a very good reason to keep my mouth shut in this thread (but now I won't). This book:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Operas-Ernest-Newman/dp/0691027161/ref=tmm_pap_title_0
> 
> in my opinion, has very interesting background information about the Parsifal legend and Wagner's sources; based on this, I'm not sure if "over-the-top religous" is the best label. (The book is written in a rather matter-of-fact, no-nonsense style, so perhaps not as quick a read as the latest Stephen King novel, but I liked it a lot.)


I have ordered the book. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I have ordered the book. Thanks for the recommendation.


Let me know how you liked it when you have it (I think you *will* like it, judging from your "internet persona"). I wish there were more such books on opera, with musical analysis less superficial than the usual:

Plot: Amfortas redeemed by innocent fool Parsifal
Music: Use of leitmotifs carried to extremes


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Gualtier Malde said:


> Let me know how you liked it when you have it (I think you *will* like it, judging from your "internet persona"). I wish there were more such books on opera, with musical analysis less superficial than the usual:
> 
> Plot: Amfortas redeemed by innocent fool Parsifal
> Music: Use of leitmotifs carried to extremes


But there *are* other such books. Get Paul Robinson's "Opera and Ideas," and Robert Donington's "Opera and its Symbols," for starters.

I have ordered a used copy from an Amazon.com market vendor so it will be a couple of weeks until I get it, and I have other books ahead of it in my unread pile, so, I'll only be able to let you know what I think several weeks from now, but I will.


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## Gualtier Malde (Nov 14, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> But there *are* other such books. Get Paul Robinson's "Opera and Ideas," and Robert Donington's "Opera and its Symbols," for starters.


I will take a look at these, thanks!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Gualtier Malde said:


> I will take a look at these, thanks!


And Bryan Magee's "The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy". Written with examplary lucidity.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> And Bryan Magee's "The Tristan Chord: Wagner and Philosophy". Written with examplary lucidity.


I got that one too but it's also on the unread pile.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> I got that one too but it's also on the unread pile.


It's an excellent, quite insightful read but if you're looking for a disquisition on the uses of the half-diminished seventh chord spelled with a #2, #4 and #6 you will be disappointed!  It has excellent discussion of Wagner's changing philosophical beliefs (Magee is a noted philosopher) and how they infused RW's plots, music, and lifestyle.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I really am glad for this thread. This is the one that got me into TC.

Any fav Parsifals recorded in the 1990s until now? I would love to find a good recent one to add to my old mono ones.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

There are many great stereo Parsifals.
Knappertsbusch '61, Solti, Kubelik, Karajan, Boulez.
Levine did 2.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itullian said:


> There are many great stereo Parsifals.
> Knappertsbusch '61, Solti, Kubelik, Karajan, Boulez.
> Levine did 2.


Thanks for the recommendations. Any good ones that were recorded during the past 20 years this century?


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

This. Guarantee a hair-raising performance. Never before I have seen or listened to a more convincing Kundry (Callas, Modl, Ludwig, Varnay, Crespin included). Meier almost steals the show here. The rest of the cast are good enough for me.






http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsifal-Meier/dp/B006ZV6YUI


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Best, most recent recording is Gergiev's.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Best, most recent recording is Gergiev's.


Awesome then I will add that to my iTunes buy list then. Thanks for the recommend!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> This. Guarantee a hair-raising performance. Never before I have seen or listened to a more convincing Kundry (Callas, Modl, Ludwig, Varnay, Crespin included). Meier almost steals the show here. The rest of the cast are good enough for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know some people enjoy this production. But if this scene is representative, I must say I find it underwhelming. Meier doesn't steal the show here; she _is_ the show. She has a lovely appearance, a fine, intelligent presence, and a decent voice (though not in a class with the other ladies you mention, much less the firm, sensual mezzo of Irene Dalis on Kna's '62 Bayreuth CD). But I see little else here to like. The Parsifal is no actor; he doesn't understand how to be still, how to listen to the music, and he spends too much time weaving back and forth, crouching, and clenching his fists. He needed better direction, but then some of the direction is weird. The kiss is downright comical, with Parsifal wriggling around and then falling off that upside down canoe thing, after which he cries "Amfortas" and Kundry promptly falls off the other side! This is admittedly a difficult acting assignment, but my goodness! Parsifal's ensuing monologue is aimlessly delivered; his vision of the Grail isn't the least bit visionary, and for his cry of "Erloser! Rette mich!" he just stands there. Where's the supplication and the agony? Barenboim doesn't help mobilize the drama either; much of his conducting sounds subdued and homogenized: Kundry's "Ich sah das Kind" monologue simply has no momentum, accents or climaxes, leaving Meier very much on her own. It's to her credit that she almost saves it.

I've read about the sets in this production, of which we see a sample here. Gone are Wagner's evocative, mythical locales; apparently the whole opera is set in a sort of dark vault with movable walls for changing scenes, and characters sometimes float in on top of that odd canoe (what _is_ it, please?). Klingsor's enchanted garden is replaced by what you see here: pretty much nothingness, the blackness inhabited not by dancing flowers but by television screens showing bits of female anatomy, which sing (but hopefully don't dance) to Parsifal as he stands there in his bathrobe (are there showers as well as TVs?), as baffled as we are. Yeah, nothing like MTV to get a kid horny.

Well, why go on. No, I haven't see the whole production and I don't intend to waste my time on it. I know this opera far too well, and love it far too much, to watch yet another egotistical director try to prove that he knows better than Wagner what Wagner is about.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I just added this version to my growing Parsifal recordings list:


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I would say that while the above posted Barenboim production may not be as traditional as Woodducks' fantasies, it is "virtually" traditional relative to contemporary German productions, and it respects the source material. We do live in an age where the directors outright mock Wagner's material onstage, so this is a case of beggars not being choosers. That is easily the best DVD I have seen (and I've seen a few), and even if the sum of it is to be assumed to be complete trash, it is worth it for Meier's Kundry. She *is* Kundry, when you are gifted Kundry herself on stage, who cares about vocal comparisons to nostalgic mono recordings of Kundry impersonators?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I must confess to being seduced by the Parsifal music while be repulsed by its barmy libretto, a mess of pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo. It appears a witches brew of ideas gleaned from Christianity, Buddhism and Schopenhaurian philosophy, without its author even really understanding what any of them are about. And I won't even go into the controversy over whether it is steeped in racial prejudice. My solution is to almost forget the libretto (which I find annoying) and concentrate on the music.
For historic recordings I find Karajan 1961 in Vienna far more dramatic than Knappersbusch 1951 in Bayreuth (I have both)
For modern recordings Karajan or Barenboim (both with the BPO) are both good.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I must confess to being seduced by the Parsifal music while be repulsed by its barmy libretto, a mess of pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo. It appears a witches brew of ideas gleaned from Christianity, Buddhism and Schopenhaurian philosophy, without its author even really understanding what any of them are about. And I won't even go into the controversy over whether it is steeped in racial prejudice. My solution is to almost forget the libretto (which I find annoying) and concentrate on the music.
> For historic recordings I find Karajan 1961 in Vienna far more dramatic than Knappersbusch 1951 in Bayreuth (I have both)
> For modern recordings Karajan or Barenboim (both with the BPO) are both good.


The _haute-ist _thing you can do is to consult the infinite and endless backlog of fantastic Woodduck posts on the intellectual profundity of _Parsifal_.

I'm neither a Schopenhauerian nor a Christian, myself; but genius needs to be given its due.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> The _haute-ist _thing you can do is to consult the infinite and endless backlog of fantastic Woodduck posts on the intellectual profundity of _Parsifal_.
> 
> I'm neither a Schopenhauerian nor a Christian, myself; but genius needs to be given its due.


I'll give the genius his due for the music but not the libretto!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> The _haute-ist _thing you can do is to consult the infinite and endless backlog of fantastic Woodduck posts on the intellectual profundity of _Parsifal_.
> 
> I'm neither a Schopenhauerian nor a Christian, myself; but genius needs to be given its due.


I'll give the genius his due for the music but not the ideas in the libretto!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Which production of Die Walkure is that picture from?  Very nice.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just been watt
Ching Parsifal on the screen. A very large Kundry unfortunately does not allow one to suspend disbelief!


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

This is Amalie Materna, about the date she premiered "Parsifal" in Bayreuth:










And this is Milka Ternina at around the time she premiered Kundry in the MET:










So, when you write "A very large Kundry unfortunately does not allow one to suspend disbelief!", what you really means is that *you* can't suspend disbelief. And that's fine for you (even if a little bit difficult to understand, given that you don't like the libretto, and concentrate on the music only), but for sure it doesn't need to be the case for others.

Personally, if Ms. Materna was ok for Wagner, she is ok for me too, and I guess this allows for large (or even very large) Kundrys to perform the role.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I must confess to being seduced by the Parsifal music while be repulsed by *its barmy libretto, a mess of pseudo-religious mumbo-jumbo. It appears a witches brew of ideas gleaned from Christianity, Buddhism and Schopenhaurian philosophy, without its author even really understanding what any of them are about. And I won't even go into the controversy over whether it is steeped in racial prejudice.* My solution is to almost forget the libretto (which I find annoying) and concentrate on the music.
> For historic recordings I find Karajan 1961 in Vienna far more dramatic than Knappersbusch 1951 in Bayreuth (I have both)
> For modern recordings Karajan or Barenboim (both with the BPO) are both good.


Ignorance may be bliss for some. Others, less inclined to dismiss a work they don't understand and insult its composer's intelligence and learning, have taken the time and trouble to read and study and think, and have come to see how coherent, elegant, and incisive is Wagner's synthesis of the mythological and philosophical sources of this work, all of which he understood quite well enough for his artistic purposes. The material is out there if one is interested. (And no, one doesn't have to go into the "controversy" about whether the work is "steeped" - interesting choice of words for one who "won't even go into" it - racial prejudice.

Parsifal may be "steeped" in a lot of things - it's a rich mine of symbolic meanings and references - but that isn't one of them.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

hey hey... I love both the libretto and the music. Sorry folks.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Still trying to ascertain which Parsifal DVD to get... the Sinopoli production at Bayreuth as much as I loved it isn't on DVD or Blu-ray as far as I know.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

^^ Lovely pics of Materna and Ternina!


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Even after having seen it live several times - including successive nights in different countries - watched videos and listened to recordings, I still feel I'm in the foothills. The journey to enlightenment in Wagner's music is such a great pleasure. Although not given to religiosity myself, I'm actually more drawn to this story than most of Wagner's other works.

As for listening to audio, I find that playing it loud helps... but do consider neighbours!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Ignorance may be bliss for some. Others, less inclined to dismiss a work they don't understand and insult its composer's intelligence and learning, have taken the time and trouble to read and study and think, and have come to see how coherent, elegant, and incisive is Wagner's synthesis of the mythological and philosophical sources of this work, all of which he understood quite well enough for his artistic purposes. The material is out there if one is interested. (And no, one doesn't have to go into the "controversy" about whether the work is "steeped" - interesting choice of words for one who "won't even go into" it - racial prejudice.
> 
> Parsifal may be "steeped" in a lot of things - it's a rich mine of symbolic meanings and references - but that isn't one of them.


The problem is that it often reflects the composer's lack of understanding of the ideas he was dealing with.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

schigolch said:


> This is Amalie Materna, about the date she premiered "Parsifal" in Bayreuth:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course I meant me! If you can imagine large singers as slim seductive temptresses then good luck to you! Just that I find it difficult!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

DavidA said:


> The problem is that it often reflects the composer's lack of understanding of the ideas he was dealing with.


I think a lot of the time Wagner is playing with ideas, using his operas to work through some kind of inner torment. That's why you can't neatly say what his operas are trying to convey, because he has not necessarily worked it out himself. I'm not a Wagnerite in the sense his ideas don't appeal to my inner life (I'm too 18th Century rationalist for that, and basically too content) but I find thinking about them quite interesting. And then, of course, there is the music...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think a lot of the time Wagner is playing with ideas, using his operas to work through some kind of inner torment. That's why you can't neatly say what his operas are trying to convey, because he has not necessarily worked it out himself. I'm not a Wagnerite in the sense his ideas don't appeal to my inner life (I'm too 18th Century rationalist for that, and basically too content) but I find thinking about them quite interesting. And then, of course, there is the music...


Wagner was a man who ideas and philosophies were detached from the life he actually led. I mean, the love death theme in Tristan? Did he believe it practically? Just a sort of romantic ideal. He was far too selfish as a man. Of course there are those who are so seduced by the music that they imagine Wagner to be some sort of holy writ never to be spoken against. I am not one of them. I admire and enjoy the music but the man and his somewhat off beam (and sometimes pernicious) ideas are another thing.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

DavidA said:


> Wagner was a man who ideas and philosophies were detached from the life he actually led. I mean, the love death theme in Tristan? Did he believe it practically? Just a sort of romantic ideal. He was far too selfish as a man. Of course there are those who are so seduced by the music that they imagine Wagner to be some sort of holy writ never to be spoken against. I am not one of them. I admire and enjoy the music but the man and his somewhat off beam (and sometimes pernicious) ideas are another thing.


I think we know that you are not a Wagner fan.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think we know that you are not a Wagner fan.


No you're wrong! I AM a fan of Wagner's music. After all I have recordings of all his operas including Four Rings, Four Tristans and three Parsifals. The problem to some people is that I refuse to make Wagner something he is not. He was an opera composer not some sort of deity!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm not saying Wagner would be a good fit for the Abrahamic mythology, but consider the Greek pantheon. They wouldn't have had a God of Opera. I therefore nominate Wagner for that open role. Also, gods of this tradition were allowed to have very human failings, so no issues there!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> No you're wrong! I AM a fan of Wagner's music. After all *I have recordings of all his operas including Four Rings, Four Tristans and three Parsifals*. The problem to some people is that I refuse to make Wagner something he is not. He was an opera composer not some sort of deity!


That's all? ...................


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> I'm not saying Wagner would be a good fit for the Abrahamic mythology, but consider the Greek pantheon. They wouldn't have had a God of Opera. I therefore nominate Wagner for that open role. Also, gods of this tradition were allowed to have very human failings, so no issues there!


They'd have to be allowed some VERY human failings! Like Wagner's own gods in fact!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> That's all? ...................


Sorry I realise to be a Wagner devotee it is necessary to be able to paper the walls and pave your lawn with recordings of his operas in order to show your unfailing devotion! So count me in the just 'interested' category!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Sorry I realise to be a Wagner devotee it is necessary to be able to paper the walls and pave your lawn with recordings of his operas in order to show your unfailing devotion! So count me in the just 'interested' category!


You're much to serious my friend. 

OR....You could just buy more..........


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Sorry I realise to be a Wagner devotee it is necessary to be able to paper the walls and pave your lawn with recordings of his operas in order to show your unfailing devotion! So count me in the just 'interested' category!


This is over the top. Only 7 Ring cycles minimum are required, one for each day of the week. This is such that one does not have to listen to the same Ring on a Thursday that they had already heard on Monday (how tacky).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> This is over the top. Only 7 Ring cycles minimum are required, one for each day of the week. This is such that one does not have to listen to the same Ring on a Thursday that they had already heard on Monday (how tacky).


But doesn't all this ring mean you are going round in circles?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> You're much to serious my friend.
> 
> OR....You could just buy more..........


My garden doesn't need paving at the moment!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Having been on vacation and away from the forum for a few days, I return now to this thread on my favorite opera, one which I have studied and thought about for many years, to find people talking about it and saying practically nothing.

_Parsifal_ has probably generated a greater variety of interpretation, and more controversy, than any other opera. It clearly makes an extraordinary impression on people. Does no one have any ideas about the source of that impressiveness? Is it just the music? Or does the story fascinate? Can anyone be specific about what they see in it that they find either impressive or repellant?

I've had a fair amount to say about the opera on another thread:

http://www.talkclassical.com/34771-wagner-guy-thing.html

Because Wagner deals in mythical imagery with strong symbolic overtones, many different, often compatible (but not always!) views of the opera exist. It would be nice if someone were interested in thinking about them.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> The problem is that it often reflects the composer's lack of understanding of the ideas he was dealing with.


Which ideas? Misunderstood how? Would it matter if Wagner understood certain ideas differently from the way others understood them? Is it the business of an artist to reflect others' understandings? Isn't art about seeing things in one's own way?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Which ideas? Misunderstood how? Would it matter if Wagner understood certain ideas differently from the way others understood them? Is it the business of an artist to reflect others' understandings? Isn't art about seeing things in one's own way?


Well, would it matter if he misunderstood gravity different from others because he was an artist? It's was, of course, his right to misunderstand - but doesn't' taller the fact that he did!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Having been on vacation and away from the forum for a few days, I return now to this thread on my favorite opera, one which I have studied and thought about for many years, to find people talking about it and saying practically nothing.
> 
> _Parsifal_ has probably generated a greater variety of interpretation, and more controversy, than any other opera. It clearly makes an extraordinary impression on people. Does no one have any ideas about the source of that impressiveness? Is it just the music? Or does the story fascinate? Can anyone be specific about what they see in it that they find either impressive or repellant?
> 
> ...


Why? I don't go into ecstasy about the libretto of the Magic Flute as it's pretty nonsensical to all except (perhaps) Freemasons. I just enjoy the wondrous music. Why should I go into raptures about Wagner's similar philosophical muddle? The music is what is to be enjoyed! Don't spoil the music for us by insisting we find some great meaning in the text!


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Listened to the first half of the 1962 recording yesterday. I hadn't listened to this since before my trip to the Met in 2013 to see Parsifal (note my avatar).

I knew the soloists were incredible - including my personal favorite George London - but I was really taken by the contributions of the chorus. 

Can't wait to finish the second half this evening.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

albertfallickwang said:


> Still trying to ascertain which Parsifal DVD to get... the Sinopoli production at Bayreuth as much as I loved it isn't on DVD or Blu-ray as far as I know.


The Sinopoli/Bayreuth is indeed available on both blu-ray and dvd!
http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsif...2237651&sr=8-1&keywords=Parsifal+Sinopoli+blu


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

kineno said:


> The Sinopoli/Bayreuth is indeed available on both blu-ray and dvd!
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Parsif...2237651&sr=8-1&keywords=Parsifal+Sinopoli+blu


Thanks for the find! Would be nice if were a CD/mp3 recording too.


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## AC Douglas (Jan 29, 2015)

DavidA said:


> The problem is that it [_Parsifal_] often reflects the composer's [Wagner's] lack of understanding of the ideas he was dealing with.


Oh? What an extraordinary statement!

Which ideas, and how not understood?

--
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

I have the Hans Knappertsbusch recording of Parsifal on my to-listen list. I can't wait! (on Spotify)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I have the Hans Knappertsbusch recording of Parsifal on my to-listen list. I can't wait! (on Spotify)
> 
> View attachment 62561


That looks like the 1951 recording, the first of Kna's recorded Bayreuth _Parsifals_. It was the only available recording of the opera for about a decade. There are about a half-dozen Kna performances now, up to his last in 1964. The 1962 is a particular beauty, with the best sound, and is the favorite of many (including me).


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## AC Douglas (Jan 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> There are about a half-dozen [recorded Bayreuth] Kna performances now, up to his last in 1964. The 1962 is a particular beauty, with the best sound, and is the favorite of many (including me).


It is indeed a particular (and uncanny) beauty and my favorite as well. It is to my ears so spot-on that I truly believe Kna himself could not have matched it were his very life at stake.

--
ACD
http://www.soundsandfury.com/


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> That looks like the 1951 recording, the first of Kna's recorded Bayreuth _Parsifals_. It was the only available recording of the opera for about a decade. There are about a half-dozen Kna performances now, up to his last in 1964. The 1962 is a particular beauty, with the best sound, and is the favorite of many (including me).


Thank you, Woodduck. Judging from the reviews, this seems to be the 1962 recording that you're referring to. I'm going with your suggestion, I switched out the 1951 for the 1962 Parsifal. 

Thank you kindly, as always. :tiphat:


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Both the 1951 and 1962 Knappertsbusch _Parsifal_s have long been praised as perhaps the greatest recordings of the work (though I have never really warmed to the '51). Either one would be worth adding to a collection.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm with the 62 as well.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I am going to be excited to add the Gergiev version to my list. Supposedly it's the best version of the past 10-15 years.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Both the 1951 and 1962 Knappertsbusch _Parsifal_s have long been praised as perhaps the greatest recordings of the work (though I have never really warmed to the '51). Either one would be worth adding to a collection.


Nice to see you, amfortas. It's been a while. Hope that wound is feeling better. 

I never cared greatly for the '51 either. Compared with the '62, the sound is inferior (mono of course), the orchestral and choral ensemble is less precise, and Kna's generally slower tempos pay off in some spots but seem unnecessarily sluggish in others; the '62 has more shape and momentum. I also find the singers in the '62 cast more attractive in general; Hotter's Gurnemanz is profound, Irene Dalis and Jess Thomas strike my ear much more pleasantly than Martha Modl and Wolfgang Windgassen, and in '51 only Hermann Uhde's fantastically neurotic Klingsor has a slight edge over '62's excellent Gustav Neidlinger. On the whole I think the '62 _Parsifal_ is one of the few truly indispensable complete recordings of a Wagner opera.

I have to say I haven't heard any of the other Knas, and I look forward especially to hearing the '64 with Jon Vickers as Parsifal.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I must confess to be disappointed with Kna's 51 Parsifal. I know that's heresy to some but the whole thing appears to drag. I'll have to listen again when I have 6 hours! Apparently Wagner was quite insistent to Hermann Levi (who conducted the first performance) that he didn't want the music to drag. I find Karajan 61 (live) to be a far more dramatic performance despite the relatively poor sound, with a superb Kundry (second act) from Christa Ludwig, probably the best on disc. Hotter is also on top of his game and Berry (to my surprise) makers a superbly malevolent Kingslor. The second act is worth getting these discs for! Karajan 2 is far better recorded but I think the 61 performance is even better!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> I must confess to be disappointed with Kna's 51 Parsifal. I know that's heresy to some but the whole thing appears to drag. I'll have to listen again when I have 6 hours! Apparently Wagner was quite insistent to Hermann Levi (who conducted the first performance) that he didn't want the music to drag. I find Karajan 61 (live) to be a far more dramatic performance despite the relatively poor sound, with a superb Kundry (second act) from Christa Ludwig, probably the best on disc. Hotter is also on top of his game and Berry (to my surprise) makers a superbly malevolent Kingslor. The second act is worth getting these discs for! Karajan 2 is far better recorded but I think the 61 performance is even better!


That live Karajan does get excellent reviews, especially Ludwig (who is the best thing about the Solti recording too), and I look forward to hearing it. In truth many of us are heretics about the '51 Kna. It's a dedicated performance and has transcendent moments, but parts of it do drag (for me). Don't be too sure about Wagner's tempo preferences, though. It's true that he didn't want things to drag, but we do have timings for his own performance of the prelude on two separate occasions and they were pretty average. Here's the web site:

http://www.wagneropera.net/Operas/Conductors-Parsifal-Bayreuth.htm

He also took the baton from Levi at the final Bayreuth performance and conducted the final scene at a tempo that made one of the singers comment that they were all struggling for breath. Probably he knew it was his last performance and he just couldn't bear for the beauty to end!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Interesting these quotes from Richard Strauss :

'It is not I who conducts Parsifal faster but rather you in Bayreuth who have got slower and slower. Believe me, what you are doing in Bayreuth is all wrong.' (Richard Strauss)

"The Master [ie RW] has already composed Parsifal to be very slow, so one doesn't need to add to this by also conducting it slowly." (Richard Strauss to the orchestra during rehearsals)

and about his performance:

"With Strauss, the tempo is much livelier than is usually adopted for this sacred play. Yet it loses nothing of its pious and heartfelt mood either, something which of course must always be retained. And the theatrical piece that is Parsifal also received immense drive so far as purely dramatic effect is concerned. Totally new aspects, tensions and triggers which one would hardly ever have expected are suddenly illuminated. Those long drawn-out movements, further extended by slow tempos (for instance in the case of Gurnemanz in the first act) become more comprehensible thanks to tighter tempos. Of course, Strauss is no mystic - but he is a musician of such great calibre that he managed to convince with his Parsifal performance, despite its veering away from all those well-worn paths, and left everyone deeply moved." 
(Oskar von Pander in Münchner Neueste Nachrichten, 24 July 1933)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I am just getting into Parsifal. I have this in my 43-CD Wagner Opera set:









It is okay, but I wanted a better recording which led me to get a 40-CD Wagner Great Recordings set with Karajan's Parsifal. But I was not aware that it was the "live" Karajan and poor in sound quality (actually worse than the one above):









So now I have on order this one which I know is a great recording:









I also ordered this one on DVD which I know also is a great one:









So far I have only listened to the Kna recording.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

^

Do not forget the Karajan one on DG with Peter Hoffman, it's s stunning recording and recorded.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> ^
> 
> Do not forget the Karajan one on DG with *Peter Hoffman*, it's s stunning recording and recorded.


Right! That is what I thought was in the 40 CD set. It is unfortunate because all the other operas in that set (Hollander, Lohengrin, Meistersinger, and Ring have good sound quality, as well as most of the selections disks with different singers and orchestral disks). The 40 CD set does include this nice disk (but no Parsifal selections on it):


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Did you see this Florestan?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-lis...386001&creativeASIN=B000001G53&condition=used


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> Did you see this Florestan?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-lis...386001&creativeASIN=B000001G53&condition=used


Yes. Going to let the Barenboim soak in a bit and watch the DVD, but will keep that one on my watch list.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Wonderful opera I have listened to it several times the last weeks.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Florestan said:


> Yes. Going to let the Barenboim soak in a bit and watch the DVD, but will keep that one on my watch list.


The Barenboim is very good. It's a clear notch below the very best recordings, which for me are the Kubelik--very good studio sound--and Knappertsbusch 1962--live but in pretty good stereo--and maybe the Kna 1964--good mono, a better Parsifal and Amfortas but a worse Kundry than 1962.

The Knappertsbusch you have is the 1951, which I think is a little overrated for its historical significance--the first commercial complete recording, of the first performance of Parsifal at Bayreuth after the war. I don't think Kna had a good handle on the score yet at this point, with some wonderful minutes surrounded by some aimless quarter hours. Wonderful cast though. But this recording doesn't make my top 5 recordings of Parsifal, possibly not even my top 10.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If you like this excerpt, then pursue it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> The Barenboim is very good. It's a clear notch below the very best recordings, which for me are the Kubelik--very good studio sound--and Knappertsbusch 1962--live but in pretty good stereo--and maybe the Kna 1964--good mono, a better Parsifal and Amfortas but a worse Kundry than 1962.
> 
> The Knappertsbusch you have is the 1951, which I think is a little overrated for its historical significance--the first commercial complete recording, of the first performance of Parsifal at Bayreuth after the war. I don't think Kna had a good handle on the score yet at this point, with some wonderful minutes surrounded by some aimless quarter hours. Wonderful cast though. But this recording doesn't make my top 5 recordings of Parsifal, possibly not even my top 10.


It's interesting that many on this forum are not fond of Kna's 1951 recording. There's no question that it evinces a real dedication from its participants, it is an invaluable document, and it was justly acclaimed in its day. But for me its sole indispensable element is Hermann Uhde's marvelously neurotic Klingsor. Uhde, with his unusual, incisive timbre and superb technique and diction, was the great "character actor" among baritones; as Telramund, too, he was in a class by himself.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> It's interesting that many on this forum are not fond of Kna's 1951 recording. There's no question that it evinces a real dedication from its participants, it is an invaluable document, and it was justly acclaimed in its day. But for me its sole indispensable element is Hermann Uhde's marvelously neurotic Klingsor. Uhde, with his unusual, incisive timbre and superb technique and diction, was the great "character actor" among baritones; as Telramund, too, he was in a class by himself.


Not a bad Holländer either!


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

am I the only one who likes "Wein und Brot"?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

perempe said:


> am I the only one who likes "Wein und Brot"?


No! The choruses at the end of Act I are wonderful - and "Nehmet vom Brot" is _hummable_.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

perempe said:


> am I the only one who likes "Wein und Brot"?


Definitely not! It's beautiful, but what's fascinating about it is that it's an extended variation on the "eucharist" motif, the opening melody of the prelude, which Wagner elsewhere breaks into fragments from which he derives a number of the principal motifs in the score. The interrelationship among the musical themes in _Parsifal_ is more complete, and their variants more subtle, than in any other opera, even the _Ring._


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

perempe said:


> am I the only one who likes "Wein und Brot"?


No, not the only one. That, and the following hymn of the knights, are one of my favorite parts of all Wagnerian opera. The man was a real master of great choruses.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

I really like the orchestration.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Debussy said the orchestration of _Parsifal_ sounded "as if lit from behind."

Nicely put, Claude.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Debussy said the orchestration of _Parsifal_ sounded "as if lit from behind."
> 
> Nicely put, Claude.


You are one first names already I see.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pugg said:


> You are one first names already I see.


Only on my side. Claude actually dislikes such familiarity and insists on calling me Monsieur Woodduck.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

I used to swear to myself I would never set a foot in the door of the Festspielhaus Bayreuth as long as it is dominated by the absurd Regietheater ideas. But sometimes things change the way one could not even imagine, and now I find myself planning a trip to that pretty Bavarian town - to see Parsifal. Judging by video excerpts from last year's performance, the musical part of it is still on a very high level of excellence. If all goes well, in August I will be a blessed pilgrim.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

As concerns the absurd stagings: the music of Parsifal is of such sublime beauty that no staging, no matter how artistic, would be an adequate visual representation for it (although some scenic interpretations, such as that of Wieland Wagner, do come a little closer to it than others). So it really does not matter all that much what is happening on the stage, as long as the voices are strong enough, and the music from the "mystical chasm" of the Festspielhaus resounds in all its splendor.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SiegendesLicht said:


> As concerns the absurd stagings: the music of Parsifal is of such sublime beauty that no staging, no matter how artistic, would be an adequate visual representation for it (although some scenic interpretations, such as that of Wieland Wagner, do come a little closer to it than others). *So it really does not matter all that much what is happening on the stage, as long as the voices are strong enough, and the music from the "mystical chasm" of the Festspielhaus resounds in all its splendor.*


It would matter to me! If all I want is the music, there are recordings, and some of those enshrine performances the like of which it would be hard to match nowadays. I've produced _Parsifal_ in my mind's eye, and the images that Wagner's music summons up in my imagination surpass anything ever seen on the stages of the world. Perhaps only film could do them justice.

But I can understand wanting to experience Bayreuth. I'm sure it will be a profound experience for you despite whatever follies they put on the stage.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I used to swear to myself I would never set a foot in the door of the Festspielhaus Bayreuth as long as it is dominated by the absurd Regietheater ideas. But sometimes things change the way one could not even imagine, and now I find myself planning a trip to that pretty Bavarian town - to see Parsifal. Judging by video excerpts from last year's performance, the musical part of it is still on a very high level of excellence. If all goes well, in August I will be a blessed pilgrim.


Yes, for all its nonsense I would still love to see something at Bayreuth. Wouldn't it be nice if they revived the Wieland productions and added some 21st century technological expertise to it. I'm sure they could do it but not too likely. Enjoy your visit Siegendes.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Yes, for all its nonsense I would still love to see something at Bayreuth. *Wouldn't it be nice if they revived the Wieland productions and added some 21st century technological expertise to it*. I'm sure they could do it but not too likely. Enjoy your visit Siegendes.


That is a great idea for some Bayreuth anniversary special, those productions would still hold up great today with a timeless design feel updated by modern lighting, sound, image projection etc.....lets do it!!!!!!!

Wait we still need some great singers for the roles :lol:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I would say it's never going to happen, but I would have said the same thing before the Salzburg Easter Festival went ahead and did it with _Die Walküre_, recreating the sets from the 1967 production.

I can't seem to find any reviews in English. I heard a good deal about this before it happened, but then nothing.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> I would say it's never going to happen, but I would have said the same thing before the Salzburg Easter Festival went ahead and did it with _Die Walküre_, recreating the sets from the 1967 production. I can't seem to find any reviews in English. I heard a good deal about this before it happened, but then nothing.


Harteros, Kampe, Kowaljow absolutely worth hearing...Thielemann's tempi somewhat slow...






(Unfortunately 3rd act missing)


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> That is a great idea for some Bayreuth anniversary special, those productions would still hold up great today with a timeless design feel updated by modern lighting, sound, image projection etc.....lets do it!!!!!!!
> 
> Wait we still need some great singers for the roles :lol:


Ideally we need a film version directed by someone like Peter Jackson with amazing CGI for the special effects and using a Pristine refurbished 1955 Bayreuth soundtrack with actors miming the vocals. :lol:


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## The Wolf (Apr 28, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if they revived the Wieland productions and added some 21st century technological expertise to it. I'm sure they could do it but not too likely.


This year but not Wieland...Wolfgang "Lohengrin" in Prague!!:

http://www.narodni-divadlo.cz/en/show/10761?s=305

"The production is a remake of the original staging by Wolfgang Wagner at the Bayreuther Festspiele in 1967."









Would be nice that in Bayreuth, but Katarina...


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> It would matter to me! If all I want is the music, there are recordings, and some of those enshrine performances the like of which it would be hard to match nowadays. I've produced _Parsifal_ in my mind's eye, and the images that Wagner's music summons up in my imagination surpass anything ever seen on the stages of the world. Perhaps only film could do them justice.
> 
> But I can understand wanting to experience Bayreuth. I'm sure it will be a profound experience for you despite whatever follies they put on the stage.


You are right of course, it does matter some. I am not sure I would want to see copulating crocodiles or other suchlike nonsense in Parsifal. Judging by the excerpts from the 2016 performance, this one should be at least tolerable.

But I am going there (hopefully it works out and I really will be able to go) first and foremost for the music. If Parsifal is overwhelming on a CD, I can only imagine what a mind-blowing experience hearing it live would be, when the music is all around you. No wonder some people cannot sleep or have other extreme reactions after hearing Wagner live. Also I am going for the atmosphere (where else you can find so many Wagner admirers gathered in one place and celebrating the Meister's art?), for the sheer fact of _having been there_ at least once in my life (another dream of mine come true!), and because a dear friend of mine has a ticket to spare.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I would say it's never going to happen, but I would have said the same thing before the Salzburg Easter Festival went ahead and did it with _Die Walküre_, recreating the sets from the 1967 production.
> 
> I can't seem to find any reviews in English. I heard a good deal about this before it happened, but then nothing.


Wieland's sets would have to be re-created as well. Wolfgang Wagner had them destroyed after Wieland's death.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

SiegendesLicht said:


> You are right of course, it does matter some. I am not sure I would want to see copulating crocodiles or other suchlike nonsense in Parsifal. Judging by the excerpts from the 2016 performance, this one should be at least tolerable.
> 
> But I am going there (hopefully it works out and I really will be able to go) first and foremost for the music. If Parsifal is overwhelming on a CD, I can only imagine what a mind-blowing experience hearing it live would be, when the music is all around you. No wonder some people cannot sleep or have other extreme reactions after hearing Wagner live. Also I am going for the atmosphere (where else you can find so many Wagner admirers gathered in one place and celebrating the Meister's art?), for the sheer fact of _having been there_ at least once in my life (another dream of mine come true!), and because a dear friend of mine has a ticket to spare.


That was exactly the experience I had there 6 years ago. The excitement of just being there, and hearing the music in that room completely overshadowed whatever feelings I might have had about the productions...though I did like Herheim's Parsifal quite a lot.


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## Morton (Nov 13, 2016)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I used to swear to myself I would never set a foot in the door of the Festspielhaus Bayreuth as long as it is dominated by the absurd Regietheater ideas. But sometimes things change the way one could not even imagine, and now I find myself planning a trip to that pretty Bavarian town - to see Parsifal. Judging by video excerpts from last year's performance, the musical part of it is still on a very high level of excellence. If all goes well, in August I will be a blessed pilgrim.


Oh, I am jealous! I have tried to get tickets for the past two years without success.
I have seen Parsifal many times over the years, but never at Bayreuth.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Morton said:


> Oh, I am jealous! I have tried to get tickets for the past two years without success.
> *I have seen Parsifal many times over the years*, but never at Bayreuth.


I guess it is me who has a reason to be jealous, since I have never seen it live before. Bayreuth will be my first time.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Barbebleu said:


> Ideally we need a film version directed by someone like Peter Jackson with amazing CGI for the special effects and using a Pristine refurbished 1955 Bayreuth soundtrack with actors miming the vocals. :lol:


Jackson would no doubt spread the thing out to twice it's length if other films are anything to go by! :lol:


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

interestedin said:


> Harteros, Kampe, Kowaljow absolutely worth hearing...Thielemann's tempi somewhat slow...


Thank you! I will watch!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Morton said:


> Oh, I am jealous! I have tried to get tickets for the past two years without success.
> I have seen Parsifal many times over the years, but never at Bayreuth.


I was hoping to get tickets for _Parsifal_ this year, but missed out. As a consolation, I'm going to see _Tristan_ again, which I really enjoyed last year. Hopefully I can snap up a returned _Parsifal_ ticket while I'm there.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I have listened to it a lot lately and I have to say it is a really wonderful opera with large parts that feels like they are out of this world.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Like Sloe, I have been immersed in Parsifal lately. It has a hypnotic quality to it. It's slightly exhausting in a sense. I usually have enjoyed Wagner most an act at a time. But with Parsifal I have been compelled to listen to its entirety. I listened to Karajan this week and then I just had to hear Waltraude Meier as Kundry so I am listening to the Barenboim. She is perhaps my favorite Wagnerian singer. And yet I still feel compelled to listen to a couple more Parsifals before I'm through. This might be a contender for favorite Wagner opera. That said I have a tendency towards obsessiveness when I get in to something so it might be the music but it also might be a quirk of the brain that drives me to compulsively listen. :tiphat:


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## vincula (Jun 23, 2020)

Sloe said:


> I have listened to it a lot lately and I have to say it is a really wonderful opera with large parts that feels like they are out of this world.


I have to find the right occasion to spin again my long-loved Parsifal: Knappertsbusch '51/Bayreuth. The missus has no love for Wagner, so it's collecting too much dust these days. Pity she's not working now due to f.... co.....19 :lol:

Regards,

Vincula


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## Eramire156 (Sep 28, 2017)

*Marstonrecords to release the Bodanzky/ Leinsdorf Parsifal*

from the Met, New York City, 15 April 1938
featuring Kirsten Flagstad and Lauritz Melchior also in the cast Friedrich Schorr and Emanuel List.

https://www.marstonrecords.com/pages/future


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Sonata said:


> Like Sloe, I have been immersed in Parsifal lately. It has a hypnotic quality to it. It's slightly exhausting in a sense. I usually have enjoyed Wagner most an act at a time. But with Parsifal I have been compelled to listen to its entirety.


I felt for expressing my foundness for for something I like. It is really breathtaking. Wagner really was a great composer his operas was really fantastic and something of its own that showed what opera and music could be like and they are wonderful to listen too. And obviously other felt the same.


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## ThaNotoriousNIC (Jun 29, 2020)

When I was first introduced to Parsifal by seeing the Met's production of the opera in 2018, I was not particularly impressed by it. With the exception of the back-drop and scenery of the second act, I was not particularly engaged by the staging of the production. In particular, I felt it humorous to see the chorus of knights draw their imaginary swords up and down during the communion scene of Act I. The staging had ultimately distracted me and as I never heard the opera before either, there were certain points that I could not focus on the music and was lost. For a while, with the exception of the instrumental portions, Parsifal was not an opera that I particularly listened to on repeat compared to the Ring.

This Spring, I decided to give Parsifal another chance. I listened to the Solti recording of the opera recommended on the forum, re-familiarized myself with the story, and focused on the music. After listening to it this Spring,I have a newfound appreciation for the opera. I found the music to be very dramatic, reflective, and unique in sound compared to the other Wagner operas. I also read up about the philosophical debates surrounding Parsifal which made me reevaluate how I look at all Wagner operas as a whole (as a discussion about ideas through the story rather than assessing the opera just by the plot on its own). There is definitely a lot of food for thought to be had by the listener after closely listening to Parsifal. It is not my favorite Wagner opera (Die Walkure takes the cake for me), but I will welcome listening to the opera more in the future than a lot of other operas I've heard over the past couple of years. I would love to see a more traditional staging of this opera with Knights of the Holy Grail.

Favorite part: Prelude to Act II. This may be a bit of an unorthodox pick, but out of all parts of the entire opera I heard back when I first heard it in 2018, this part grabbed my undivided attention. It came out of nowhere for me and Wagner does a masterful job in creating huge build-up for the act to come. I find the prelude to be incredibly menacing and it sets the tone for Klingsor and his kingdom. I particularly like this James Levine recording of the prelude from a 90s Met production with Placido Domingo (0:00-2:25).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I believe the Bayreuth 1983 video might satisfy if you’re looking for something down the traditional staging route. 

My apologies for getting your hopes up here. I just realised that I only have this as a VHS that I taped from the t.v. back in the day. It would appear not to exist on dvd.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)




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