# Opera lovers



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

There seems to me to be a much higher level of adoration for their art and their artists among opera lovers than among those who love non-opera CM.

Is this true?

And if it is, could it be because there is a greater investment by opera lovers in individual performers (especially sopranos), rather than in collectives (eg opera houses v symphony orchestras)?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

People have been mad about opera stars since the early 18th century (when the castrati and primadonne were bigger stars than the composers, and better paid, although Handel was not exactly starving ) In the 19th century the great violin and then mostly piano virtuosi, like Liszt, and later conductors, beginning with the likes of von Bülow and Mahler, almost caught up with the opera stars and there was and is still a lot of fandom for them in the 20th and early 21st century but I think it has sobered more than in opera. (Maybe in line with CM becoming both more niche and more a media than life performance art.)

Opera is more obviously emotional, singing seems more intimate and personal (also often more precarious, easy to fail and failures easy to hear), so I think that's one reason why the tradition of highly emotional and polarized fandom is still fairly strong here. 
That there is much more and more polarized fandom around singers than instrumentalists seems largely true in popular music as well; we might not realize this because there is comparably little high profile purely instrumental popular music.

However, even in the late 20th century there were occasions, like the several late "comeback" recitals by Horowitz in the 1980s when people got absolutely mad, the halls were sold out within no time and other people paid $$$ on the black market for tickets etc.


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## gsdkfasdf (11 mo ago)

Opera singing is basically blasting your whole soul out for the whole world to see, so I really don't blame the others (and me) for being so invested in it. The singer and instrument too are inseparable, so its harder to not get involved.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This magnificent obsession of mine is a disease!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'm an opera lover but only as part of my wider love for classical music (most genres). I notice the singer obsession of people who identify primarily as opera lovers but, while I find their knowledge and tastes interesting and (sometimes) helpful but for me it is the whole performance that counts. I have no difficulty living with less than superb singing in a really good account of an opera I love. Of course, though, some voices turn me off ... but again I am far less fussy than some. A good example might be Peter Pears. I suppose many would agree he has a perfect voice for Britten but might want to avoid him in other repertoire. I have no problem with his voice and greatly love his artistry, whether it be in Schubert, Elgar, Bach, Schumann .... or Britten.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I came to opera after becoming interested in the symphonic repertoire, and I'm not a trained vocalist, so I still sometimes struggle with some of the technical aspects of opera. I did notice early on that reviewers of symphonic music tend to work in broader brushstrokes, while opera critics will go for more specific things (although opera critics often gloss over the orchestra's contribution, commenting on whether it was good or not but failing to offer specifics). The voice is an infinitely complex instrument; everyone has a different vocal color and their own particular strengths or weaknesses. So when several singers must be combined in an opera performance, things get complicated. This ties back to the original post here, mentioning "individual performers." And it's not just the fact that there are soloists, but the fact that they are _singers_ which makes them particularly individual. Two violin soloists will have differences in technique, interpretation, and to a certain extent timbre, but it will be much easier for most people to hear the differences between two singers. Also, one can comment on how well the stage action/drama comes off in a performance, which is harder to do in the more abstract setting of a symphony concert. So I think people who like opera tend to invest some extra time in keeping these things straight, and maybe this makes them seem more knowledgeable or dedicated.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Singing is magic. A great singer is a person who looks, acts and talks just like you and me but sounds like most of us never could.


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## Bernamej (Feb 24, 2014)

Keep this thread going ! Interesting read.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

I need a story for the music to really move me emotionally. That does not explain, why I am not an ardent admirer of ballet... So maybe I need words as well. Actually, I enjoy Italian opera much more since I learned the basics of the language. Right now I started studyimg French on duolingo, specifically with the goal to understand French opera. My firts childhood opera was _almost_ in my native language.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

I understand Italian because speak Spanish. But my vocabulary consists mostly of opera pieces, like "Povera donna, sola, abbandonata! " or "Si pieta di me non senti, giusto viel, io moriro".


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ColdGenius said:


> I understand Italian because speak Spanish. But my vocabulary consists mostly of opera pieces, like "Povera donna, sola, abbandonata! " or "Si pieta di me non senti, giusto viel, io moriro".


At least that's more useful than my German, which consists of things like "Weia, waga, woge du Welle" and "Starke Scheite schichtet mir dort am Rande des Rhein zuhauf!"


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Or "Gib mir den Kopf des Johanaans! "


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I am a lover of popular music as well as opera. With the exception of singers like Streisand, Garland, Ella, Aretha, Jeff Buckley, and Dimash, most of the singers are people we can pretend to be in bar with karaoke. On the other hand opera stars that we love sing things we cannot hope to sing unless we are a trained singer. Some singers such as Sutherland, Callas, Corelli, or Melchior even very very few opera stars can hope to sing on their level. Put it this way, popular singing is good but mostly not out of reach of some of the everyday listeners ability to imitate whereas opera is extraordinary and few could sing like those they emulate. I think many people are attracted to non challenging music whereas people in this forum like being blown away with what they listen to. I like the excitement and beat of popular music, but the vocalism rarely gets me worked up the way opera does. Also, except with a singer on the level of Garland you rarely ever get emotions in popular music like you do in a lot of opera. Personally I have a different connection to instrumental classical music. I love live opera, but unless say a great pianist is playing I get bored in classical concerts and prefer to listen in the car, where I greatly enjoy the music often.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

After I discovered opera the most of pop-music including the so called crossover doesn't cause any feeling in me. I use to say, microphone singing is not fair. But of course I respect some non-classical musicians, mostly in the field of roch, jazz and folk.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> At least that's more useful than my German, which consists of things like "Weia, waga, woge du Welle" and "Starke Scheite schichtet mir dort am Rande des Rhein zuhauf!"


If you’re learning your German from Wagner libretti then you‘re in deep trouble. It would be like learning English by studying Dickens. Victorian style which is deemed archaic now by modern standards.


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## BBSVK (10 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> After I discovered opera the most of pop-music including the so called crossover doesn't cause any feeling in me.


For me, the musicals by Andrew Lloyd Weber, like The Phantom of the opera, Joseph, Jesus Christ Superstar, or West Side Story by Bernstein are the closest things to opera on an emotional level. I don't even know, if singers need to be good there. And they are not pop anymore,I guess, they are pretty oldfashioned now.


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

BBSVK said:


> For me, the musicals by Andrew Lloyd Weber, like The Phantom of the opera, Joseph, Jesus Christ Superstar, or West Side Story by Bernstein are the closest things to opera on an emotional level. I don't even know, if singers need to be good there. And they are not pop anymore,I guess, they are pretty oldfashioned now.


It was one of my steps to classical music.


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## gsdkfasdf (11 mo ago)

ColdGenius said:


> It was one of my steps to classical music.


Same here, alongside musicals like Elisabeth, Rebecca, Monte Cristo, J&H, and Tanz der Vampire. Wanted more, couldn't get it through other musicals, went to opera instead and wound up hopelessly addicted.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Opera is pure schlock, in a good way. The most beautiful melodies sung in the most dramatic melodramas about the most heart-rending tropes, love and death. What more could anyone want?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

ColdGenius said:


> Or "Gib mir den Kopf des Johanaans! "


"Ah! Ich habe deinen Mund geküsst, Jochanaan"


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Barbebleu said:


> If you’re learning your German from Wagner libretti then you‘re in deep trouble. It would be like learning English by studying Dickens. Victorian style which is deemed archaic now by modern standards.


It would be MUCH WORSE. It would be like learning English by studying a 19th century author who tried to write in a pseudo-Chaucerian style (I don't know if anyone did such a thing). Because Wagner, especially in the "Ring" tries a made-up archaic style that has almost nothing to do with how people wrote or talked in the 19th (or any other ) century (whereas I think Dickens wrote fairly lowbrow and close to normal "newspaper" style in his time) and accordingly that style was mocked immediately even back then.
It's not quite as bad in the other operas, but they all have their share of archaisms and stilted language, far above typical 19th century poetry. 
E.g. the Salome libretto quoted above is mostly quite straightforward despite the ancient and exotic subject maybe also because it was based on a translation. 
I am not suggesting "Wie schön ist die Prinzessin Salome heute Nacht!" as a pickup line for your German date but it is perfectly normal German even 2022...


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Rogerx said:


> "Ah! Ich habe deinen Mund geküsst, Jochanaan"


Meine Tochter hat alles recht getan!


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## ColdGenius (9 mo ago)

Russian in operas on "ancient times" libretti is also obsolete for even XIX century and sometimes demand a dictionary.


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