# Self-Instruction?



## raydobbs

Lurked a while, figured I would join up and ask a question finally (hopefully not one that has been asked to death). This year, I decided one of the things I really wanted to be able to do was learn to play a musical instrument - specifically, a guitar. Already possessing a classical acoustic guitar, I put work into it to make it playable again - but found my understanding of music (or the apparent severe lack of it, rather) hindering my efforts. A lot of people I talked to mentioned a solid understanding of piano might help with the musical theory aspects - sight reading notation, chord formation.

Lacking the funds and space for a mechanical piano, I purchased a 61 key keyboard to learn on - and immediately found no piano instructor would instruct me unless I had a REAL mechanical piano, not even an 88 key weight keyboard would do. A few even said an upright piano would not be sufficient, but I figured they were just cranks (and thusly ignored). The ability to utilize other 'voices' made a keyboard a nicer choice for me, though I am finding that self-instruction leaves me wondering if I am going about this whole learning process the right way.

A lot of self-instruction books I find aren't about teaching you sheet music, reading, and technique; settling instead on teaching you memorization of playing certain songs as fast as they can. While a noble goal, it feels like it is skipping over things I would need (perhaps I am seeing this wrong?) to be a more proficient musician - being able to understand a wider range of music.

The other end of the spectrum in book terms seem to be books centered on the idea that unless I started when I was ten, I will never be good enough to do much more than look bad and make the salesperson at a piano store cringe. Kind of disheartening, to say the least.

So far, I have kept at it - but am I -really- wasting my time learning proper musical notation and piano when I could simply return to guitar, learn tabliture and 'fake' it like a lot of rock guitarists I've met suggest?


----------



## emiellucifuge

It would be helpful if you had an idea of what your goals are here, and be honest with yourself.

Though I will add that the keyboard you have should be fine to learn notation and basic theory.


----------



## raydobbs

Well, I guess I would like to be able to play the piano for recreation... definitely not as a career though (I like music, but to listen to - not try to make) and learn the guitar, which I set out to do originally. I think self-enrichment is mostly my goal - the learning of new skills, meeting new people - and having new experiences basically.


----------



## kv466

Just because one doesn't learn how to read music doesn't mean anything is 'fake' about their playing. I would much rather listen to a self-taught bad*ss who can play really well than sit there and hear a Berkley alum who knows so much but has no natural feel. If you can play, you can play; and that can't be taught.


----------



## Ukko

kv466 said:


> Just because one doesn't learn how to read music doesn't mean anything is 'fake' about their playing. I would much rather listen to a self-taught bad*ss who can play really well than sit there and hear a Berkley alum who knows so much but has no natural feel. If you can play, you can play; and that can't be taught.


_Kv466_ is the guitar guy here - it sure as hell ain't me - but I do know that maybe 80% of the amateur bluegrass musicians I have known couldn't read music notation. Guitarists could mostly read tablature, and all of the reasonably proficient folks could hear what the pros were fingering. My dear departed friend told me that once you know what every string will sound like on every fret, and the alternatives, it's just a matter of getting there with the hands in synch. I could only say 'well, alright then.'


----------



## raydobbs

kv466 said:


> Just because one doesn't learn how to read music doesn't mean anything is 'fake' about their playing. I would much rather listen to a self-taught bad*ss who can play really well than sit there and hear a Berkley alum who knows so much but has no natural feel. If you can play, you can play; and that can't be taught.


I guess what I mean by 'fake' it is that I would like to be able to play music in a wider collection of music, versus the precious few I managed to memorize that might be my personal favorites. In a way, I am trying to look at this as a journey of experience, learning, and knowledge. I do kind of accept that I -might- not be a natural at it, but I want to at least be able to reach a point that I can determine that based on merit versus just a serious lack of technique.


----------



## kv466

Do it. Just keep playing and playing and decide for yourself how far you wanna go. Like you said, it is a journey of experience and some years may be stagnant while sometimes in only a few weeks you'll learn all kinds of things; you just gotta stick with it. Hey,...and if you haven't fully immersed yourself into it yet then don't worry about natural ability. Even for those who do have it, I've seen it take over a year to even show any signs. Just play and only worry about satisfying one person: you.


----------



## raydobbs

kv466 said:


> Do it. Just keep playing and playing and decide for yourself how far you wanna go. Like you said, it is a journey of experience and some years may be stagnant while sometimes in only a few weeks you'll learn all kinds of things; you just gotta stick with it. Hey,...and if you haven't fully immersed yourself into it yet then don't worry about natural ability. Even for those who do have it, I've seen it take over a year to even show any signs. Just play and only worry about satisfying one person: you.


This is a pretty uplifting statement. Thank you. I have also, since, found a few instructors who are alright with teaching someone who only owns a keyboard as long as I know there is a distinction between the two. I think my leanings toward more contemporary music might have made the idea of teach easier since a lot of modern music doesn't seem to use the missing keys on a 61 key keyboard. I -do- eventually plan to get an 88 key keyboard with weighted keys (versus synth keys) so I can play more musical pieces - bu I do want to get a nicer one, so that will take some time.

I'd say my biggest hurdle right now is trying to mentally translate the notes to fingers. I mean, I grasp the note meanings for the most part - I just read them -very slowly- so it's a bit frustrating since I basically have to memorize things to play anything... and there is only so many times you can practice 'Ode to Joy' before one losses it.


----------



## PetrB

"Stuck" with a decent older generation 88 key studio digital piano myself, I would not dream of hanging up a shingle offering 'piano instruction,' because that truly takes an acoustic instrument.

But, I would happily start you off, if you had clearly announced your goal of wanting to learn KEYBOARD, how to play (a bit) and with the main thrust on learning notation, theory, etc. For that, your owning a less than 88 key digital is perfectly adequate.

Clarify what you want from the instruction, and try some of those teachers again. Most, especially if 'certified,' should be able to teach you the theoretcal as well as how to negotiate the keyboard a bit. (A lesson is a lesson, and it should cost the same as they normally charge.)

What you cannot get from a digital keyboard, especially if it does not have fully weighted keys, is the feel of the real instrument, the 'exercise' you get from playing one, and the true resonance of playing just one note on a real piano. 

If your keyboard is without weighted keys, practicing 'piano' on it is not nearly adequate enough. (You would freak when sitting down at a regular piano if the digital was all you had been working with.)

I would be surprised if some of those teachers would not respond differently if you clearly explained your goals, if not accepting you directly, at least referring you to an appropriate teacher / tutor. However you wish to or end up playing or comping, it is more than handy to know notation and to have a general working vocabulary and trained ear within and about the craft. If you never discuss it with anyone, it clarifies your thinking about music in general.


----------



## Meaghan

I currently live with a very good guitarist. He is self-taught, doesn't read music, and definitely doesn't play piano. I recently started learning guitar, and while I think my background in piano and music theory did help me pick it up faster, if I were starting guitar with no musical experience, I don't think I would start out by learning another instrument as a means to learning guitar. It would probably take longer. And you can gain a solid understanding of harmony, etc. on guitar, as evidenced by people who play only guitar and understand music theory very well. Maybe instead of looking for a piano teacher, you should look for a guitar teacher? Or someone who can work with you on reading and music theory? 

I have had exactly one guitar "lesson" with the guitarist I live with. He told me what pitch each string is tuned to and that each fret raises the pitch a half step, and then taught me four chords. With that knowledge, I was able to figure a bunch more out by myself. I think that, at least when you're a beginner, a little tutelage can go a long way, and it might be a help if you can even just get someone to run over the basics with you.


----------



## berndgast

„First try to learn everything you can get and than forget all that ********!“ (John Coltrane)

This doesn't mean that you have to visit a teacher. The point is to keep the searching mind.

But when you play: PLAY! Music comes out of emotion - not out of 15 years studiing with
the most expensive teacher.


----------



## PetrB

............... .............. ..... .................. .................. .............. ...............

Sorry, inadvertent paste into the wrong place entirely, meant for elsewhere and in another window! Time for bed, I think.


----------



## Stargazer

Here's a link to a youtube channel that basically teaches you all of that stuff, he has stuff on both piano and music theory:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lypur/videos

I actually watched it for a while...I had some basic piano instruction when I was young, but wanted to get back into it recently and self-taught myself using those videos (though I'm still at an extremely basic level lol). The guy in them is honestly a bit weird and eccentric but he's really good at explaining everything. As for whether you should bother learning piano first I'm far from knowledgeable enough to say.


----------



## Moira

I'm surprised that no teachers are willing to teach keyboard skills and theory. My music (piano) teacher reckoned that keyboard skills, aural and theory were central to being a musician and that if not one of her pupils ever went on to be a pianist she would be content to raise a generation of competent musicians. She actively encouraged her more talented pupils (and even less talented but hard working ones) to take on a second instrument - something other than a keyboard instrument. 

I later studied music for non-degree purposes at university where we learned history of music, aural, theory, voice and keyboard skills all as compulsory subjects. Sight reading and sight singing were considered basic voice and keyboard skills which needed to be mastered. Over and over I blessed my original music teacher for her excellence and discipline in teaching me all these skills as I went along.


----------



## raydobbs

I figured I would give an update, as I am continuing on my journey of knowledge. I can say that I can now read music, though I am really really slow at it - and I don't have to label the notes on the keys anymore, as well as can play limitedly with both hands (treble and base). Suffice it to say, I can see where having the full 88 keys is most desirable in that you are afforded more room, and the keys themselves are larger (less likely to butterfinger a note I wasn't intending to hit) as well as the weight really cuts down on the unintentional key-presses. My main problem I am hitting lately is an exercise involving broken cords and playing with both hands.

I can say that I am glad I chose to learn on a piano / keyboard first, though I still have my original plan in mind of returning to the guitar to learn to play it as well


----------



## sah

Meaghan said:


> if I were starting guitar with no musical experience, I don't think I would start out by learning another instrument as a means to learning guitar. It would probably take longer. And you can gain a solid understanding of harmony, etc. on guitar, as evidenced by people who play only guitar and understand music theory very well. Maybe instead of looking for a piano teacher, you should look for a guitar teacher? Or someone who can work with you on reading and music theory?


I agree with that. At least in this part of the word, people who study guitar at conservatories don't have to start playing piano. However, I think the piano is better when it comes to study harmony (more octaves, easier to find the notes), mainly if you want to analyse music not written for guitar.

As you have already started to learn to read music, the book "The first Guitar Milestone" by S. Eythorsson may be of interest to you. I have used to teach kids and think it is good. You can download here for free, as well as other methods and scores:
http://www.classicalguitarschool.net/en/Download.aspx?id=1018


----------



## Jaws

I have got to professional standard on an instrument I started at the age of 42, and in so doing have proved that age of starting has nothing to do with how good anyone will get. It didn't take me longer than it would have had I been young. About 12 years. It helped that I had played another instrument first and that I could already read music, but it does prove that age isn't a bar to learning to play an instrument. I did have lessons, they help you to improve faster, and stop you from having to waste loads of time trying to undo something that you have learned to do wrong. Lots of fantastic folk instrument players don't read music. Basically you can do what ever you feel comfortable with. The most important this is to do lots of "getting used to doing things" otherwise known as practise.


----------



## Abracadabra

I play both keyboard and guitar, as well as quite a few other instruments including, violin, cello, saxophone, trumpet, and drums. I enjoy playing all of them. I found the saxophones and trumpet to be of special interest since they really opened my eyes to learning about transpositions. I have a Bb trumpet, and and Alto as well as tenor sax (i.e. Eb, and Bb).

The keyboard and guitar have a lot in common. Both instruments offer the ability to play chords or melody. And both instruments also ofter a nice way to "see" the structure of keys etc. The keyboard because of its repetitive keys, and the guitar because of its repetitive fretboard or fingerboard.

I find it far easier to improvise on guitar or keyboard, than say on a sax or trumpet. Especially jumping around between different keys. That's really easy to do on a keyboard or guitar, not so easy to visualize on a sax or trumpet.

I'm also a "self-learner". I've decided not to refer to myself as "self-taught" because I've certainly had outside instruction in the form of books, videos, and other guides. Just nothing live and in-person.

Ironically some of my best music "teachers" (on video) have been drummers! That's right. I've learned a lot about music from learning to play the drums. Obviously much about timing, but many other subtle aspects of music as well. I've also gained a huge respect for serious drummers. People like Tommy Igoe, JoJo Mayer, Benny Greb, Stanton Moore, and others have produced fantastic drumming videos that address a lot of musical subtleties that have helped me tremendously on all my musical instruments, not just the drums.

Anyway, yeah keyboard is great for learning music theory, but so is guitar really.

On guitar what I would strongly suggest is to just learn the pentatonic scale up and down the entire fingerboard. It's really easy. And once you've learned it you have all the keys. It's just a matter of moving the same patterns around the fingerboard. Learn to play blues and just jam (improvise). Because it's so easy and it opens the door to everything else from there.

Then expand the pentatonic pattern to include the Ionian mode, and suddenly you've got all the modes right there in one shebang. It's just a matter of moving the same patterns around on the fingerboard to line up different roots notes.

I made the following guitar scale poster and have it hanging on my wall.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

I don't think you need to bother with the piano. Teaching yourself the guitar I've heard is extremely easy. Maybe you could get some "Teach Yourself The Guitar" book/course/DVD. Or couldn't you just find yourself a guitar teacher? There should be quite a few of those around, no matter where you live. I live in a small country town and there is *at* *least* 2 here.


----------



## Abracadabra

I agree with MaestroViolinist. It's not necessarily to learn keyboard to learn music theory. You can do that just as easily using a guitar. 

Having said that, I personally feel that there's much to be gained from learning several different instruments simultaneously. You can't go wrong there. There's really no need to put one off in favor of the other unless you're practice time is really scarce. 

The best way to learn would be to play both "simultaneously". By that I simply mean to learn the very same things on both as you go. Whatever chords you can play on the keyboard you can also play on the guitar, and vice versa. Same with melodies and scales. So there's really no reason why you can't practice the same 'lessons' on both instruments. 

I use a sheet music program, and just set up a staff for every instrument I play. Then once the music is in place just copy and paste it into every instrument and there you go. Instant score for whatever instrument you're working with. 

Of course, you're obviously not going to play chords on something like a saxophone or trumpet, but on guitar you can. 

But then again you can always do arpeggios on instruments that can't play multiple notes simultaneously.


----------



## MaestroViolinist

Abracadabra said:


> I agree with MaestroViolinist. It's not necessarily to learn keyboard to learn music theory. You can do that just as easily using a guitar.


Firstly, thank you. 



Abracadabra said:


> Having said that, I personally feel that there's much to be gained from learning several different instruments simultaneously. You can't go wrong there. There's really no need to put one off in favor of the other unless you're practice time is really scarce.


Ahh, but if you want to become accomplished and play professionally it's best to learn just one instrument at a time.



Abracadabra said:


> I use a sheet music program, and just set up a staff for every instrument I play. Then once the music is in place just copy and paste it into every instrument and there you go. Instant score for whatever instrument you're working with.


What is this program? It sounds interesting.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> I don't think you need to bother with the piano. Teaching yourself the guitar I've heard is extremely easy. Maybe you could get some "Teach Yourself The Guitar" book/course/DVD. Or couldn't you just find yourself a guitar teacher? There should be quite a few of those around, no matter where you live. I live in a small country town and there is *at* *least* 2 here.


Teaching yourself real classical guitar is almost impossible.


----------



## Abracadabra

MaestroViolinist said:


> Ahh, but if you want to become accomplished and play professionally it's best to learn just one instrument at a time.


That's a very common claim that I personally don't believe has any merit. There are actually quite a few really good musicians who can indeed play several different instruments. Another fact too is that it's been shown from studies that more progress is actually gained from practicing in small increments for short periods of time rather than to continually practice for long hours at a time. So there's actually a good argument for practicing several different instruments for shorter periods of time rather than spending hours focusing on one. This is especially true if the instruments are radically different.

So I'm not prepared to buy into the standard cliche that it's best to just focus on one instrument. I personally feel that's just an outdated notion that has no serious merit. Unfortunately too many people believe it. But instead of becoming really great on just one instrument they often just become mediocre players who can only play one instrument and have a real phobia about trying to learn a second instrument.

After all, if they did poorly on there first instrument, (and they actually believe that trying to play two instruments would take away from both instruments) then they are probably convinced that taking up a second instrument would just make matters worse. That's truly unfortunate, because in many cases they might actually do better on the second instrument if they merely tried it out. Which they won't do because they've been convinced that trying to learn more than one instrument is foolish (which is baloney).

Finally, just to fuel my case further. Not everyone who learns to play an instrument is planning to become a "Great artist" at it. I played just guitar for the bulk of my life and never became all that great. When I started learning other instruments I quickly discovered that I could "catch up" to where I was on the guitar almost instantly (within just a year or two).

Now I play a whole lot of different instruments. Probably over a dozen, I don't even bother to keep count anymore. Am I "Great" at any of them? No. But then again, I seriously doubt that I would have ever been "Great" at any one of them even if I had focused on just one (like I originally did with the guitar). I didn't get great on it.



MaestroViolinist said:


> What is this program? It sounds interesting.


I personally use Melody Assistant, by Myriad. Fantastic program and you can't beat the price!

http://www.myriad-online.com/en/products/melody.htm


----------



## MaestroViolinist

I've have been convinced!


----------



## MaestroViolinist

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Teaching yourself real classical guitar is almost impossible.


Really? I've never heard that before... But then you play yourself.


----------



## Abracadabra

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Teaching yourself real classical guitar is almost impossible.


It depends on an individual whether or not they would make a good self-learner. Everyone isn't the same.

What's seems "almost impossible" for one person could be a piece-of-cake for someone else.

I learned classical guitar on my own from books. It didn't seem overwhelming to me.

There's six strings on a guitar and twelve notes in the Western musical system. What's the problem?

It's not that hard. The only thing left is training your fingers to do it. And that just requires practice. Something a teacher can't do for you anyway.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> Ahh, but if you want to become accomplished and play professionally it's best to learn just one instrument at a time.


In my opinion, it's often a lot better to study a variety of different instruments even if you become more proficient at one instrument later in life. The reason why I say this is because from learning a number of instruments, your mind is opened up to a very wide range of repertoire. You would have a vast knowledge of different musical styles and all this knowledge would also improve your musicality. In short, you learn more and you play better.


----------



## Abracadabra

MaestroViolinist said:


> I've have been convinced!


Well, I confess it's different for everyone. Some people might do better just sticking to one thing at a time. But the idea that this should automatically apply to everyone seems like overkill to me.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

MaestroViolinist said:


> Really? I've never heard that before... But then you play yourself.


Try teaching yourself this:


----------



## MaestroViolinist

I see what you mean. Is that person playing harmonics on a guitar??? I didn't know that could be done!!!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I know you can definitely play harmonics on all stringed instruments.


----------



## Tero

You don't need to read music to practice guitar. It does help but if you know the song, lots of tab notation is on the net. It tells you the exact fingering.
This is rather difficult as nearly every bar is a chord, but you get the idea:
http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc/greensleeves_tab.htm


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Tero said:


> You don't need to read music to practice guitar. It does help but if you know the song, lots of tab notation is on the net. It tells you the exact fingering.
> This is rather difficult as nearly every bar is a chord, but you get the idea:
> http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/m/misc/greensleeves_tab.htm


It would be a tremendous effort to convert Elliott Carter's guitar music to tablature. :lol:


----------



## PlaySalieri

Learning the guitar is a big enough task so why saddle yourself with an even bigger pain - the piano!
Yes you need a real piano and they are not cranks. The action on a real piano is totally different from an elec keyboard or even digital piano though some teachers use digital pianos and that is not a good thing at all.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

stomanek said:


> Learning the guitar is a big enough task so why saddle yourself with an even bigger pain - the piano!
> Yes you need a real piano and they are not cranks. The action on a real piano is totally different from an elec keyboard or even digital piano though some teachers use digital pianos and that is not a good thing at all.


To me, piano was actually easier to learn than guitar.


----------



## PlaySalieri

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> To me, piano was actually easier to learn than guitar.


Me too - what a nuiscance the guitar is - and there's not even major repertoire for it.


----------



## Jaws

Abracadabra said:


> I agree with MaestroViolinist. It's not necessarily to learn keyboard to learn music theory. You can do that just as easily using a guitar.
> 
> Having said that, I personally feel that there's much to be gained from learning several different instruments simultaneously. You can't go wrong there. There's really no need to put one off in favor of the other unless you're practice time is really scarce.
> 
> The best way to learn would be to play both "simultaneously". By that I simply mean to learn the very same things on both as you go. Whatever chords you can play on the keyboard you can also play on the guitar, and vice versa. Same with melodies and scales. So there's really no reason why you can't practice the same 'lessons' on both instruments.
> 
> I use a sheet music program, and just set up a staff for every instrument I play. Then once the music is in place just copy and paste it into every instrument and there you go. Instant score for whatever instrument you're working with.
> 
> Of course, you're obviously not going to play chords on something like a saxophone or trumpet, but on guitar you can.
> 
> But then again you can always do arpeggios on instruments that can't play multiple notes simultaneously.


Just as some people can speak several different languages. Some people can be very good at playing several instruments. As with everything it depends on the person.


----------

