# Overture Composed First?



## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

I was always under the impression that an overture for something like an Opera was composed last. All of the main body was done and then this catchy, orchestral piece capturing the main themes was written and placed at the beginning. 

I have been reading a book about Robert Schumann and the author makes it clear he is writing an opera and is writing the overture first. 

Is this unusual or more common than I realize?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I doubt there's any rule about this. A composer needn't have composed his whole opera to have the tunes for his overture. Many overtures aren't of the potpourri variety anyway.


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I doubt there's any rule about this. A composer needn't have composed his whole opera to have the tunes for his overture. Many overtures aren't of the potpourri variety anyway.


Thank you for your reply!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MonagFam said:


> Thank you for your reply!


You're welcome. Examples: the overtures to Mozart's _Le Nozze di Figaro_ and _Cosi fan tutte_ contain no tunes from their operas but are simply cheerful introductions. Wagner's overtures and preludes do contain important material heard subsequently, but he had much of the musical substance of his operas thought out in advance and could use it in an overture before writing out the rest of the opera. Incredible as it may seem, the very elaborate overture to _Die Meistersinger,_ built entirely on themes from the opera, was composed months before the composition of the opera proper was begun.


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> You're welcome. Examples: the overtures to Mozart's _Le Nozze di Figaro_ and _Cosi fan tutte_ contain no tunes from their operas but are simply cheerful introductions. Wagner's overtures and preludes do contain important material heard subsequently, but he had much of the musical substance of his operas thought out in advance and could use it in an overture before writing out the rest of the opera. Incredible as it may seem, the very elaborate overture to _Die Meistersinger,_ built entirely on themes from the opera, was composed months before the composition of the opera proper was begun.


While I enjoy classical music, the work that goes into creating it is a bit beyond me. Even more so with Opera which I have only started to appreciate more recently.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I believe that there are also examples of opera overtures that got reused for another opera (when the first one has languished in obscurity and there was hope for another shot). That would certainly mean that the overture came first, at least for the second opera.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> I believe that there are also examples of opera overtures that got reused for another opera (when the first one has languished in obscurity and there was hope for another shot). That would certainly mean that the overture came first, at least for the second opera.


Rossini is notorious for this. Richard Osborne writes, "Overtures were sometimes adapted or reused, to the great joy of the anti-Gioachino Rossini brigade, who were fond of pointing out that whereas Ludwig van Beethoven wrote four overtures for one opera, Rossini wrote one overture for three operas and would have probably used it for a fourth had the need arisen. The overture to Aureliano in Palmira, which Rossini later reused with expanded orchestral forces in Elisabetta, regina d'Inghilterra and, unmodified, in Il barbiere di Siviglia, is curiously unrepresentative in two ways. First, music from the overture, including the whole of the Andante maestoso, recurs in the main body of the original opera, a form of thematic recurrence condemned by the 63-year-old Rossini, even though he himself had adopted it in a number of his works. Second, no other Rossini overture was so obviously and extensively redeployed."


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## MonagFam (Nov 17, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Rossini is notorious for this. Richard Osborne writes, "Overtures were sometimes adapted or reused, to the great joy of the anti-Gioachino Rossini brigade, who were fond of pointing out that whereas Ludwig van Beethoven wrote four overtures for one opera, Rossini wrote one overture for three operas and would have probably used it for a fourth had the need arisen. The overture to Aureliano in Palmira, which Rossini later reused with expanded orchestral forces in Elisabetta, regina d'Inghilterra and, unmodified, in Il barbiere di Siviglia, is curiously unrepresentative in two ways. First, music from the overture, including the whole of the Andante maestoso, recurs in the main body of the original opera, a form of thematic recurrence condemned by the 63-year-old Rossini, even though he himself had adopted it in a number of his works. Second, no other Rossini overture was so obviously and extensively redeployed."


I think I would have a problem with this too! Not Opera specific, but when I was younger I had this really big Hovhanness kick. Then I had purchased some songs to biblical texts and I remember one that was the exact same melody with different instrumentation of a work I was already familiar with. I know themes get re-used, but this seemed excessive. (Sort of like in the Brady Bunch movie where I think all of Mike's designs were just of the house he was already living in.)


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Rossini, without looking for specific examples, was the one that first came to mind.


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## Dick Johnson (Apr 14, 2020)

Rossini self-borrowed overtures on a number of occasions - 
Examples that come to mind are:
1. _L'Ignanno Felice_ used again in _Ciro in Babilonia_
2. _La Pietra del Paragone_ used again in _Tancredi_
3. _Aureliano in Palmira_ first adapted for _Elisabetta_ then borrowed again for _Il Barbiere_
4. _La Gazetta_ used again for _La Cenerentola_
5. _Comte d'Ory_ used again for _Il Viaggio a Reims_ (much of this opera was copied from the former but both are excellent in their own right.
There may be others that I'm forgetting.
This practice was quite understandable in an era before the availability of recordings. When an earlier production was unsuccessful, the music had a real chance of being lost forever unless it was used again in a new, more successful opera.
In general, the operas from the second use was more successful. _Elisabetta_ is great but still relatively neglected. _Comte d'Ory_ may be the exception here - both _Comte_ and _Viaggio_ are highly entertaining operas and are still performed. Although much of the music has been lifted directly from one to the other, they feel like very different works and I'm glad we have both.
Almost all Rossini overtures are enjoyable but the frequent criticism that much of the overture music did not directly relate to the opera that followed seems fair - especially for the early operas. As noted by Wooduck, this is similar to Mozart's _Nozze di Figaro_ or _Cosi_ and didn't seem to disturb anyone at the time. There are some clear exceptions to this in Rossini's later works - in particular, the overtures to _Mose in Egitto, Moametto, La Gazza Ladra and Guillaume Tell_ fit those operas very well and would sound out of place in a different setting. Rossini didn't seem to self-borrow from operas that had already been very successful or that had a chance at a revival.


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