# Even if you don't like operas, you have to know these ...



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

What do you reckon would be post-baroque operas that every fan of classical music should be familar with, even if they're (like me) not fond of opera to begin with? From an educational point of view, so to speak.

The list I've compiled for myself so far looks like this:

Don Giovanni
Magic Flute
Carmen
Tristan und Isolde
Boris Godunov
Pélleas et Mélisande
Elektra
Lady Macbeth
Moses und Aron
Wozzeck
Peter Grimes

I want to keep it to a resonable number, 10-15. I've left out Italian opera, maybe unfairly so, but perhaps I'll tackle that separately.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

That's a pretty decent list - only major comments are you might want to squeeze a Janacek in (Katya Kabanova probably), you might not need Moses and Aron as part of a first go-around if you have Wozzeck (although it's great), I definitely think you could put Puccini in too (Tosca). You might also consider adding in Bluebeard's Castle and L'enfant et les sortilege by Ravel - short and sweet both! Maybe throw in Dialogues of the Carmelites. Ask for more modern suggestions!

There's a whole bunch of Italian and other stuff in the C19 grand opera tradition that is a very particular taste (bel canto, Gounod, Verdi all the way through to the Tchaikovsky operas). It's everywhere and if you're not interested in it now the great thing is you don't have to be! That stuff put me off opera for ages - discovering Tosca and Salome helped back on the right track.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

This may be the best 'educated' list for people who are in the A class of classical music lovers, but as a list for people in the lower reaches who don't know or don't much like opera, it's a mite rarefied. I've only seen two, *Carmen* & *The Magic Flute*. 
The other point is - where is yer average classical-music-but-not-opera-fan going to see them? Locally, we've been offered touring productions of *Tosca*, *Madame*, *Aida & Carmen* (which we saw) and *Nabukko*, *La Boheme*, & *Turandot*, which we didn't. 
Plus, if it is an 'educated' list, why does it have to be 'non-baroque'?


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

You have left out the most obvious: Der Ring des Nibelungen is something _everyone_ more or less educated should at least have an idea of even if they don't like classical music, as it is, with its legendarium, something more than a musical piece only, it is more like a cultural phenomenon.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

why leave out Baroque opera? Do you think an educated person should be ignorant of Monteverdi or Handel's operatic output?


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> You have left out the most obvious: Der Ring des Nibelungen is something _everyone_ more or less educated should at least have an idea of even if they don't like classical music, as it is, with its legendarium, something more than a musical piece only, it is more like a cultural phenomenon.


I'm afraid that's true. I'll get to the Ring one day, but that will be, along with the rest of Wagner (except Tristan), a separate endeavour.


----------



## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

deggial said:


> why leave out Baroque opera? Do you think an educated person should be ignorant of Monteverdi or Handel's operatic output?


Not at all, quite the contrary. I'm just trying to approach this step by step and in an orderly fashion. First, the cornerstones of the standard repertoire from Mozart to Britten. Then baroque opera. Then Wagner. Then Italian opera. Then late 20th and 21st century opera. If I'll live that long.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Verdi's _La Traviata_ is one of those on the top five accessible to everyone lists, i.e. the plot is a well-known romantic tragedy tear-jerker, and other than one or two arias, all the rest of the 'numbers' are one hit tune after the next.

Fine flmed version directed by Franco Zefferelli, not fine, really, its superb.

Schoenberg's Moses und Aron is glacially slow, as if the piece is a sculptural iconic frieze in tableaux of that biblical episode; educated and methodical or not, I would heartily recommend putting that one off until a _much_ later time.

Stravinsky's _The Rake's Progress_ is great music, a terrific libretto by W. Auden, and 'accessible.' It is the pinnacle of his neoclassical style period -- the recording with the Sadler's Wells Opera company, Stravinsky conducting.

And to be 'educated, methodical and thorough, you might reconsider adding:
Monteverdi ~ Orfeo





Rameau ~ Platée


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Schoenberg's Moses und Aron is glacially slow, as if the piece is a sculptural iconic frieze in tableaux of that biblical episode; educated and methodical or not, I would heartily recommend putting that one off until a _much_ later time.


Sheesh--as a great fan of Saariaho's "L'amour de loin," I wouldn't say that it's slow at all--even if it still hasn't quite gotten to the ending yet. Tristan und Isolde is a brief flirtation by comparison.

Even so, I'd highly recommend it.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Considering the Italians invented the form, (Peri's *Dafne* is generally credited as being the first opera, though the score has been lost) it does seem very odd to me to leave any Italian opera off the list. Also many of the Italian operas are the most approachable.

PetrB has already mentioned the excellent film version of *La Traviata*, and I'd add Baz Luhrmann's 1993 Australian Opera production of *La Boheme*, none of the singers top notch, but all believably young.


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I'd be scared to death to turn off a lot of non opera lovers with much of what has been listed here.
I have already introduced several couples to the art who are now enthusiastic fans and go to all the HD's.
I started them with these first 10:
La Boheme
Carmen
Tosca
Madama Butterfly
Aida
Turandot
La Traviata
Rigoletto
La Cenerentola
Otello

and then, once they were hooked on the tried n' trues, I began to experiment with "mostly" good results with these 10:

Mefistofele
Manon Lescaut
Don Carlo
Lucia di Lammermoor
Romeo et Juliette
Eugene Onegin
Un Ballo in Maschera
Il Trovatore
La Fille de Regiment
Barber of Seville

I admit they refused any Wagner at this stage but I have hopes.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

A big turnoff with opera is the storyline: I have the (uninformed) impression that so much of it is cheesy harlequin romance. To attract new listeners, it would be good to excise the romances and leave them to the elderly housewives and stick to some more thematic interesting material to enlarge the audience.

I have found that Berg's two operas, Lulu and Wozzeck, Schoenberg's Moses und Aron, Zimmermann's Die Soldaten, Wagner's operas and Bartók's Herzog Blaubartsburg are good starting points.

I would certainly welcome knowing of more great operas... but leave the romances for the old gals


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> A big turnoff with opera is the storyline: I have the (uninformed) impression that so much of it is cheesy harlequin romance. To attract new listeners, it would be good to excise the romances and leave them to the elderly housewives and stick to some more thematic interesting material to enlarge the audience.
> 
> I have found that Berg's two operas, Lulu and Wozzeck, Schoenberg's Moses und Aron, Zimmermann's Die Soldaten, Wagner's operas and Bartók's Herzog Blaubartsburg are good starting points.
> 
> I would certainly welcome knowing of more great operas... but leave the romances for the old gals


Oh well, I guess I'm an old gal. If anybody had tried any of your choices on me when I was starting out (with the possible exception of *Duke Bluebeard's Castle*, I doubt I'd ever have listened (or watched) opera again.


----------



## psu (Sep 2, 2014)

Narrative in opera (as compared so, say film, or even musicals) is an operational problem across the board IMHO. Often it's best to try and think of the pieces as more abstract music rather than an actual story. I got interested in opera mostly through an evolution from choral music (Bach cantatas, etc). These pieces have the advantage that they are a bit more abstract and you can focus on the singing and the music rather than suspending your disbelief around some over the top storyline. Even the Wagner narratives are a bit crazy. The emotion and drama come from the music. Obviously people will disagree.

I say start with the film Amadeus (lots of short snippets) and Don Giovanni. Because that piece is awesome.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

psu said:


> Narrative in opera (as compared so, say film, or even musicals) is an operational problem across the board IMHO. Often it's best to try and think of the pieces as more abstract music rather than an actual story. I got interested in opera mostly through an evolution from choral music (Bach cantatas, etc). These pieces have the advantage that they are a bit more abstract and you can focus on the singing and the music rather than suspending your disbelief around some over the top storyline. Even the Wagner narratives are a bit crazy. The emotion and drama come from the music. Obviously people will disagree.
> 
> I say start with the film Amadeus (lots of short snippets) and Don Giovanni. Because that piece is awesome.


Opera is supposed to be music drama though, is it not, not just abstract music with additional voices? If the composers go to such lengths to create living, breathing, music theatre, then it would seem to do them something of a disservice to ignore the drama. Please remember the composers took their narratives very seriously, many of them based on famous works by great writers (Shakespeare/Schiller/Racine/Beaumarchais/Hugo/Dumas etc).

Incidentally do you also have trouble suspending your disbelief in Shakespeare's plays, which often have what you might call an over the top storyline?


----------



## psu (Sep 2, 2014)

I didn't mean to say that one should ignore the drama. Just that for me it comes more from the musical aspects of the work than the narrative aspects. But this is really my own personal take on the issue and I did not mean for it to be applied universally.

Shakespeare's plays bring up similar issues, but for me it's a bit easier to suspend disbelief, partly because I can connect with the language.


----------



## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I think the OP list is great for the many who find they enjoy a lot of symphonic and chamber music but haven't made a connection with opera. 

C19 Italian opera (and I suppose Wagner to a degree) is the "face" of opera, and if it doesn't appeal - and it doesn't to lots of people - then there's a whole other world of opera out there. There's always time to go back to C19 Italian and baroque and Wagner or whatever.


----------



## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Andreas said:


> Not at all, quite the contrary. I'm just trying to approach this step by step and in an orderly fashion.


I see, you've a plan. I jumped around in the beginning.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

dgee said:


> C19 Italian opera (and I suppose Wagner to a degree) is the "face" of opera, and if it doesn't appeal - .


I would say Italian nineteenth century opera, Mozart and certainly Wagner is the face of opera.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I once told my mother about Pagliacci and she didn´t even know there is a clown opera therefore I think you have to know there is a clown opera.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

My wife is a professional musician who can't get on with the artificial world of opera. The only ones she can get on with are Fidelio and Carmen and Don Giovanni so you might start there.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

DavidA said:


> My wife is a professional musician who can't get on with the artificial world of opera. The only ones she can get on with are Fidelio and Carmen and Don Giovanni so you might start there.


I like that the world of opera is artificial.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> My wife is a professional musician who can't get on with the artificial world of opera. The only ones she can get on with are Fidelio and Carmen and Don Giovanni so you might start there.


Artificial compared with what? Reality TV? Oprah? Game of Thrones? World-wide wrestling? (not that I've ever seen that, so it might be unfair on this list. Still its reputation...) The big TV series from HBO? Opera is just part of the tradition.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Andreas said:


> What do you reckon would be post-baroque operas that every fan of classical music should be familar with, even if they're (like me) not fond of opera to begin with? From an educational point of view, so to speak.
> 
> The list I've compiled for myself so far looks like this:
> 
> ...


The discussion has taken two tangents: a) what music lovers should know b) what to introduce non-opera fans to that won't put them off. These may overlap, but are not the same (Don Giovanni is in both lists, the Ring is in the first, Die Fledermaus might be on the second).
For a) I'd replace the Magic Flute with the Marriage of Figaro (to me the greatest opera ever written), and possibly replace Elektra with Salome. I'm not sure that Moses and Aron belongs in that company, but that might be just me. Rosenkavalier should certainly precede the Schoenberg. For list b, Die Fledermaus is a lot of fun or the Merry Widow.
But by and large a good and thoughtful list.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Andreas said:


> What do you reckon would be post-baroque operas that every fan of classical music should be familar with, even if they're (like me) not fond of opera to begin with? From an educational point of view, so to speak.
> 
> The list I've compiled for myself so far looks like this:
> 
> ...


I have been heavily into opera for over a year now and have none of these works.

My collection of opera on DVD and CD includes:

Fidelio
Anna Bolena
Maria Stuarda
Roberto Devereaux
L'elisir d'Amore
Meistersinger
La Fille du Regiment
La Cenerentola
L'amico Fritz
La Sonnambula
Martha
La Gazza Ladra
Matrimonio Segreto
Don Pasquale

Additionally on CD (in most cases can't find a DVD of these):
Leonore 1805 version of Fidelio
Leonore 1806 version of Fidelio
Adelia
Elisabetta al castello di Kenilworth
La Figlia del Reggimento (La Fille du Regiment but sung in Italian)
Lodoiska
Tancredi
Tosca 
I Puritani'
La Serva Padrona

For someone new to opera, I would recommend getting started with La Cenerentola, La Fille du Regiment, and L'elisir d' amore on DVD so they can take advantage of the subtitles.


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I like Andreas' original list very much. This is a great starter list, for sure! I agree about steering clear of Italian opera for beginners, unless you want to turn them off for decades to come. Let them get a foothold first.

I have flirted with opera for decades (mainly Wagner, New Viennese School and Bartók), but this past year I have added a number to my collection (independently of this list) and I now have six of them and was seriously considering all of the other ones! Great minds 

Mozart's Magic Flute is truly a marvellous one for beginners, in my opinion (what child, even, has not seen Bergman's film?) and, similarly lively and singable, Weber's Der Freischütz.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> Artificial compared with what? Reality TV? Oprah? Game of Thrones? World-wide wrestling? (not that I've ever seen that, so it might be unfair on this list. Still its reputation...) The big TV series from HBO? Opera is just part of the tradition.


of course the world of opera is artificial - people sing not speak. How many conversations in song do you have a day? That's not to say it's the only artificial medium or that we can't enjoy it. But some people have a problem. A friend of mine says, "I just can't take it when they start singing not speaking." Other people balk when consumptive heroines sing lengthy last arias. It requires suspension of disbelief above the norm so some people can't get on with it.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> How many conversations in song do you have a day?


If I were king of the world, there would be a National Opera Day where it is mandated that all conversations etc must be sung! Only exception is for emergencies, like calling 911.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> If I were king of the world, there would be a National Opera Day where it is mandated that all conversations etc must be sung! Only exception is for emergencies, like calling 911.


No emergency calls should certainly be sung.


----------



## Guest (Aug 17, 2015)

I'm a "fan of classical music" who does not like opera and "from an educational point of view" I "have to know" the same number of operas as the number of heavy metal albums that my mother "should be familar" with, I feel!

Here's the full list:


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Andreas said:


> What do you reckon would be post-baroque operas that every fan of classical music should be familar with, even if they're (like me) not fond of opera to begin with? From an educational point of view, so to speak.
> 
> The list I've compiled for myself so far looks like this:
> 
> ...





dgee said:


> That's a pretty decent list - only major comments are you might want to squeeze a Janacek in (Katya Kabanova probably), you might not need Moses and Aron as part of a first go-around if you have Wozzeck (although it's great), I definitely think you could put Puccini in too (Tosca). You might also consider adding in Bluebeard's Castle and L'enfant et les sortilege by Ravel - short and sweet both! Maybe throw in Dialogues of the Carmelites. Ask for more modern suggestions!
> 
> There's a whole bunch of Italian and other stuff in the C19 grand opera tradition that is a very particular taste (bel canto, Gounod, Verdi all the way through to the Tchaikovsky operas). It's everywhere and if you're not interested in it now the great thing is you don't have to be! *That stuff put me off opera for ages - discovering Tosca and Salome helped back on the right track.*





nina foresti said:


> I'd be scared to death to turn off a lot of non opera lovers with much of what has been listed here.
> I have already introduced several couples to the art who are now enthusiastic fans and go to all the HD's.
> I started them with these first 10:
> La Boheme
> ...


This demonstrates the wonderful and diverse attraction of opera. One person's meat etc etc.

Everyone is different and I would never advise an opera virgin as to the first opera they should see/hear. NF's top ten is what many people would advise and it's an excellent list but if I'd seen any of the top seven first I think I'd have been put off for life.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> If I were king of the world, there would be a National Opera Day *where it is mandated that all conversations etc must be sung! * Only exception is for emergencies, like calling 911.


If you had to put up with me singing to you, you'd soon change your mind! :lol:


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> of course the world of opera is artificial - people sing not speak. How many conversations in song do you have a day? That's not to say it's the only artificial medium or that we can't enjoy it. But some people have a problem. A friend of mine says, "I just can't take it when they start singing not speaking." Other people balk when consumptive heroines sing lengthy last arias. It requires suspension of disbelief above the norm so some people can't get on with it.


As a statement of fact, you are definitely correct. Some people never read fiction for cognate reasons. But I can't help seeing both as a deficiency, evidence of a stolid disposition or, at least, lack of imagination. 
Of course this is an odious generalisation which may offend non-opera lovers. But none of you knows where I live...


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

DavidA said:


> If you had to put up with me singing to you, you'd soon change your mind! :lol:


My singing has the same problem. We just have to keep the conversations brief.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

A list of operas to attend/watch/listen to is a very personal thing, and I consider it ridiculous to think that there are 'shoulds' concerning the content of one's own list. 

And, it's perfectly fine to not give a damn about opera or any other particular genre.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Bulldog said:


> A list of operas to attend/watch/listen to is a very personal thing, and I consider it ridiculous to think that there are 'shoulds' concerning the content of one's own list.
> 
> And, it's perfectly fine to not give a damn about opera or any other particular genre.


Depends what weight you give to "should". I like it when someone points me at something I don't know. If they say I "should" hear it, I see that as a recommendation, not as patronising me or imposing on me. You are too sensitive.

And it's fine not to give a damn about opera in the same way that it's fine to eat only Maccas - your loss, and your (musical) health will suffer.*


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

*Ok, I may have overstated that. But it is an internet forum, after all.


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Steatopygous said:


> Depends what weight you give to "should". I like it when someone points me at something I don't know. If they say I "should" hear it, I see that as a recommendation, not as patronising me or imposing on me. You are too sensitive.


I'll take your words as a compliment. Usually, I'm told that I lack sensitivity.


----------



## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

I love Heavy Metal


----------



## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Being Brazilian, I can recommend from all my heart that one who was a hero to Verdi and who might be the one who in Italy might be the bridge from the end of Romanticism to the Start of Verism. I'm talking about Antônio Carlos Gomes (1836-1896), a Brazilian born in Campinas, SP, and deceased in Belém, PA, and whose importance is in Italian opera from 1870 to 1893.

Carlos Gomes once stated he had composed _Il Guarany_ (1870/71) for Brazilians, _Salvator Rosa_ (1874) for Italians and _Fosca_ (1873/78;89/90) for those who understand opera. _Fosca_ he rewrote three times until he felt even with his audience...


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

brotagonist said:


> I agree about steering clear of Italian opera for beginners, unless you want to turn them off for decades to come. Let them get a foothold first.


Well that may be your take on the matter, but for many the reverse would certainly be true. It was Italian opera that got me started (they invented the genre after all).

In the end, though, does it really matter what gets you started? In my case it was a Glyndebourne Touring Production of *La Boheme*. With a young, believable cast and in an excellent (if traditional) production, I found the experience completely overwhelming. I was a student at Newcastle University at the time, and we had no resident company. However national companies (English National Opera, Glyndebourne Touring, English Opera Group, Scottish Opera) would visit every year. In the four years I was there, I saw every single opera they brought, and would also visit other cities within easy driving reach if the programme there differed. The variety of different works was wide and in just a few years I saw,

R Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier
R Strauss: Ariadne auf Naxos
Henze: Elegy for Young Lovers
Verdi: La Traviata
Verdi: Il Trovatore
Verdi: Un Ballo in Maschera
Verdi: Nabucco
Verdi: Luisa Miller
Puccini: Il Tabarro and Gianni Schicchi
Donizetti: Lucia di Lammermoor
Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov
Tchaikovsky: Eugene Onegin
Mozart: Idomeneo
Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
Mozart: Die Zauberflote
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
Massenet: Werther
Britten: Gloriana
Britten: The Turn of the Screw
Britten: The Rape of Lucretia
Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande
Iain Hamilton: The Catiline Conspiracy (I don't think it ever saw the light of day again)
J Strauss: Die Fledermaus
Bellini: Il Pirata
Rossini; Il Barbiere di Siviglia
Bizet: Carmen
Menotti: The Old Maid and the Thief
Holst: Savitri
Massenet: Werther
Gounod: Faust

I think that's a pretty wide conspectus. No baroque or early opera, but that was yet to enjoy its renaissance. I enjoyed some more than others obviously, but the point is I tried everything, and was often surprised at how much I enjoyed something I thought I wouldn't (Henze's *Elegy for Young Lovers* springs to mind).


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Bulldog said:


> A list of operas to attend/watch/listen to is a very personal thing, and I consider it ridiculous to think that there are 'shoulds' concerning the content of one's own list.
> 
> And, it's perfectly fine to not give a damn about opera or any other particular genre.


Just as it's fine to not give a damn about being literate, educated or whatever.

Many operas are more than just portion of music to enjoy or not enjoy, some hold important place in our (well, Western/European) civilisation and cultural heritage, so whenever the subject of "obligatory" titles comes out, I take it that the person asking for them has both the desire of enjoying the music AND wishes to be culturally concious person with no major gaps in artistic expourse.

You seem to be very disturbed that somebody will suddenly take away your right to eat without cutlery. Rest assured, not gonna happen.


----------



## Guest (Aug 19, 2015)

I don't accept that opera and education is an appropriate comparison at all, any more than any other niche of a particular culture. Opera exposure may constitute an expansion of cultural awareness but that would hold true for any artistic expression; Noh theatre, bluegrass, Morris dancing, whatever....


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

dogen said:


> I don't accept that opera and education is an appropriate comparison at all, any more than any other niche of a particular culture. Opera exposure may constitute an expansion of cultural awareness but that would hold true for any artistic expression; Noh theatre, bluegrass, Morris dancing, whatever....


Feel free to defend any of them, explain why they have been important in Western culture, how they have influenced other art forms etc. I wouldn't despise anyone for liking any of the artistic expressions you cite, except for "whatever".


----------



## Guest (Aug 19, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> Feel free to defend any of them, explain why they have been important in Western culture, how they have influenced other art forms etc. I wouldn't despise anyone for liking any of the artistic expressions you cite, except for "whatever".


I wasn't citing them to defend or promote them, they are merely randomly picked expressions of a culture, as is opera.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

dogen said:


> I wasn't citing them to defend or promote them, they are merely randomly picked expressions of a culture, as is opera.


When bluegrass, Morris dancing and whatever will florish for 600+ years, draw some of the foremost artist of that time to contribute etc., etc., we might put them on pair like this. Until then, though, they remain cultural (your word) niches while the opera is a cultural landmark.


----------



## Guest (Aug 19, 2015)

Aramis said:


> When bluegrass, Morris dancing and whatever will florish for 600+ years, draw some of the foremost artist of that time to contribute etc., etc., we might put them on pair like this. Until then, though, they remain cultural (your word) niches while the opera is a cultural landmark.


I don't accept such vertical cultural elitism; I accept no "shoulds" in exposure choices.

Perhaps I should stay out of the opera forum.

Good day.


----------



## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

dogen said:


> Perhaps I should stay out of the opera forum.


Oh, it shouldn't be neccessary. I don't represent it's regulars and most aren't as pretentious/elitist as me - nobody will force you to accept anything. So as long as you're interested in opera (for some other reason than "shoulds" in epourse choices), stick around.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

I am not much into opera - hah - but there are a few of them that even I think should be heard by us _purists, _if only to avoid the stigma of categorical ignorance.

Mozart - _Don Giovanni_ and _The Magic Flute_
Verdi - _Rigoletto_ and _La Traviatta_
Bizet - _Carmen_ (a concert version)
Berlioz -_ Les Troyens_

Optional - Speaking from experience when Puccini is mentioned, that interminable wailing and sobbing is not good entertainment, and awareness of the existence of _Nixon in China.

_If questioned about this paucity of experience, one should avoid elevating the nose while saying "Enough is enough."


----------



## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Just as it's fine to not give a damn about being literate, educated or whatever.
> 
> Many operas are more than just portion of music to enjoy or not enjoy, some hold important place in our (well, Western/European) civilisation and cultural heritage, so whenever the subject of "obligatory" titles comes out, I take it that the person asking for them has both the desire of enjoying the music AND wishes to be culturally concious person with no major gaps in artistic expourse.


I had a good laugh reading the above comments. I suppose I could feel a little insulted that you are questioning my artistic credentials/mind-set, but the fact is that I don't have any artistic credentials. I'm just a regular guy who happens to love classical music, and I have zero interest in being culturally aware or gaining artistic exposure. To be more precise, I am a real estate person who much prefers visiting the newest facilities in an industrial park than attending an art exhibit. I imagine that some board members would consider me a cultural heathen - that's fine by me.

In my world, opera is simply one of the genres under the heading of classical music. If a person doesn't care much for opera, just move over to one or more of the other genres. Only the music matters.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Ukko said:


> I am not much into opera - hah - but there are a few of them that even I think should be heard by us _purists, _if only to avoid the stigma of categorical ignorance.
> 
> Mozart - _Don Giovanni_ and _The Magic Flute_
> Verdi - _Rigoletto_ and _La Traviatta_
> ...


Funny! Some of us find that 'interminable wailing and sobbing' highly entertaining!

PS Are you sure they were singers who were performing when you attempted to enlarge your paucity of experience? :lol:


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Aramis said:


> When bluegrass, *Morris dancing* and whatever will florish for *600+ years*, draw some of the foremost artist of that time to contribute etc., etc., we might put them on pair like this. Until then, though, they remain cultural (your word) niches while the opera is a cultural landmark.


So we only have to wait until 2049 until Morris dancing will have been around for 600+ years since the first recorded instance of it was in 1448. Opera on the other hand wasn't around until about 1597...

N.


----------



## crisryan (Oct 1, 2015)

I agree you need to start with Puccini


----------



## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

,,,


GregMitchell said:


> Well that may be your take on the matter, but for many the reverse would certainly be true. It was Italian opera that got me started (they invented the genre after all).
> 
> In the end, though, does it really matter what gets you started? In my case it was a Glyndebourne Touring Production of *La Boheme*. With a young, believable cast and in an excellent (if traditional) production, I found the experience completely overwhelming. I was a student at Newcastle University at the time, and we had no resident company. However national companies (English National Opera, Glyndebourne Touring, English Opera Group, Scottish Opera) would visit every year. In the four years I was there, I saw every single opera they brought, and would also visit other cities within easy driving reach if the programme there differed. The variety of different works was wide and in just a few years I saw,
> 
> ...


Was that Scottish Opera's production of The Catiline Conspiracy? If it was, I saw that production in Glasgow a very long time ago, probably late seventies if memory serves. I think it did one season and vanished into well-deserved obscurity.
Btw, I love your list.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Barbebleu said:


> ,,,
> 
> Was that Scottish Opera's production of The Catiline Conspiracy? If it was, I saw that production in Glasgow a very long time ago, probably late seventies if memory serves. I think it did one season and vanished into well-deserved obscurity.
> Btw, I love your list.


Indeed it was, and, as you say, it soon sank without trace.


----------

