# Constructive criticism needed for my sketches of a Fugue in C Major



## JamieHoldham

Helllo,

I am working on a larger work "Keyboard practice" based on Bach's 24 Preludes and Fugues but with mine including a set of 24 Etudes since they are the ultimate practice of skill on a keyboard instrument, I have finished the 1st Prelude in C Major and and working on the Fugue, I put some sketches into Musescore and uploaded the .wav + PDF file on Google drive for people to listen to; I have a good understanding of the Fugue but I still have no musical education and am self taught, so thats why I am looking for criticism 

P.S, keep in mind the works are get progressively harder so since this is the first set of a Prelude, fugue and etude it isnt meant to be that complicated.

PDF = https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxOhd_SjRuUb3Q2amFMQUU0dmc/view?usp=sharing
.WAV = https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxOhd_SjRuUWlVoQnlaUlJMYTA/view?usp=sharing


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## EdwardBast

Hi Jamie,
You have a promising subject and there are good ideas throughout. It is interesting music but it is not a good fugue. The most important principle of fugal writing is independence of line and there is nothing that undercuts such independence like parallel motion, especially if it is parallel motion by perfect intervals (octaves and fifths). You have this kind of parallel motion everywhere. 

A more practical concern is the notation. There is no reason to be using Cb (m. 6), E#(m. 8, 12), and B# (m. 10). Use B, F, and C, especially if you are composing in C major!

I would throw out everything but the subject and try again, making sure to make the voices move in contrary motion more of the time so that the lines stand out as independent ideas rather than as shadows of one idea.


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## Samuel Kristopher

Well, I like it on first listening. I'll give it another listen later on before bed but it seems ok as far as fugues go. I take it by saying "some sketches", that this fugue isn't quite finished? I ask only because the exposition takes up almost half the running time, and I'd say it feels a little top-heavy in its current form, but perhaps this goes without saying  but yeah, just judging this piece on its own merit, I'd like to hear more from the development section and a convincing conclusion. 

It's a good sample though, and I would like to hear your progress on this project! I take a great interest in fugues and I'm gradually trying to work on my own cycle of preludes and fugues, so hearing other composers' work in this area is inspiring and fascinating!

Edit: EdBast says it better than I do


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## kartikeys

do not stop. continue! 
Is it possible to have it in a softer instrument, 
say, the piano? It gives a better feel among computer 
generated sounds.


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## JamieHoldham

EdwardBast said:


> Hi Jamie,
> You have a promising subject and there are good ideas throughout. It is interesting music but it is not a good fugue. The most important principle of fugal writing is independence of line and there is nothing that undercuts such independence like parallel motion, especially if it is parallel motion by perfect intervals (octaves and fifths). You have this kind of parallel motion everywhere.
> 
> A more practical concern is the notation. There is no reason to be using Cb (m. 6), E#(m. 8, 12), and B# (m. 10). Use B, F, and C, especially if you are composing in C major!
> 
> I would throw out everything but the subject and try again, making sure to make the voices move in contrary motion more of the time so that the lines stand out as independent ideas rather than as shadows of one idea.


I'll start it all over again with no parallel motion at all, I totally agree with that point and dont know why I didnt figure it out earlier, also I will keep into account having voices in different motions more often, thanks for the tip.


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## JamieHoldham

kartikeys said:


> do not stop. continue!
> Is it possible to have it in a softer instrument,
> say, the piano? It gives a better feel among computer
> generated sounds.


I can upload one for harpischord (my preferrance) and a Piano for people who prefer it when I next upload the next sketch


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## JamieHoldham

Samuel Kristopher said:


> Well, I like it on first listening. I'll give it another listen later on before bed but it seems ok as far as fugues go. I take it by saying "some sketches", that this fugue isn't quite finished? I ask only because the exposition takes up almost half the running time, and I'd say it feels a little top-heavy in its current form, but perhaps this goes without saying  but yeah, just judging this piece on its own merit, I'd like to hear more from the development section and a convincing conclusion.
> 
> It's a good sample though, and I would like to hear your progress on this project! I take a great interest in fugues and I'm gradually trying to work on my own cycle of preludes and fugues, so hearing other composers' work in this area is inspiring and fascinating!
> 
> Edit: EdBast says it better than I do


The piece is technically finished, its just that I wont write it down on my offical Keyboard-Practice composition until I get criticism, make it better and get some generally tips to help me write Fugues in the future  As for the long exposition I might consider adding more development via contrapuntal methods such as inversion, just wanting to keep it simple however because I want this Fugue to be simple easy, the hard ones come later


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## EdwardBast

JamieHoldham said:


> I'll start it all over again with no parallel motion at all, I totally agree with that point and dont know why I didnt figure it out earlier, also I will keep into account having voices in different motions more often, thanks for the tip.


Doesn't have to be all contrary motion, especially the occasional parallel thirds or sixths! Don't overdo it.

Another way to think about the same principle is to think about it in terms of "tiling," like you are designing a mosaic. The countersubject (CS) - that which the first voice does when the second one enters on the subject (S) - should in some way fill in the "blank spaces" left by the subject. But I mean blank spaces in a broad sense. It can be rhythmic, that is, one voice moving fast while the other has a longer note. Or it can mean a difference in motion - If the S crawls along by step the CS might have a few leaps. Some combination of these ideas, along with an emphasis on contrary or oblique motion will help to make all of the lines stand out more vividly against one another on one hand but, kind of paradoxically, create a more satisfying sense of unity on the big scale.


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## JamieHoldham

EdwardBast said:


> Doesn't have to be all contrary motion, especially the occasional parallel thirds or sixths! Don't overdo it.
> 
> Another way to think about the same principle is to think about it in terms of "tiling," like you are designing a mosaic. The countersubject (CS) - that which the first voice does when the second one enters on the subject (S) - should in some way fill in the "blank spaces" left by the subject. But I mean blank spaces in a broad sense. It can be rhythmic, that is, one voice moving fast while the other has a longer note. Or it can mean a difference in motion - If the S crawls along by step the CS might have a few leaps. Some combination of these ideas, along with an emphasis on contrary or oblique motion will help to make all of the lines stand out more vividly against one another on one hand but, kind of paradoxically, create a more satisfying sense of unity on the big scale.


Reworked about half of what I did earlier, uploading again if you or anyone else can see any improvements;

Piano: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxOhd_SjRuUcEI1M25sWjBVaEE/view?usp=sharing
Harpischord: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxOhd_SjRuUejgwLXp6eVFJZEU/view?usp=sharing
PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxOhd_SjRuUSEFNWFlKTW44YWc/view?usp=sharing


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## Mahlerian

You say the Fugue is in C major, but this is only felt very weakly, if at all, as being the key. The subject itself doesn't sound like it's in C major, and the first accented harmony that implies it as a key isn't until bar 7, at which point it is promptly undermined by the F appearing below. The voice leading and harmony are strange throughout, and I'm not sure what kind of style you're going for, but it isn't common practice.


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## EdwardBast

Mahlerian said:


> You say the Fugue is in C major, but this is only felt very weakly, if at all, as being the key. The subject itself doesn't sound like it's in C major, and the first accented harmony that implies it as a key isn't until bar 7, at which point it is promptly undermined by the F appearing below. *The voice leading and harmony are strange throughout, and I'm not sure what kind of style you're going for, but it isn't common practice.*


I assumed he wasn't going for common-practice style, but I probably should have asked. That is a good point to clarify for sure!


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## JamieHoldham

I wasnt going for tonality just because the subject I made is so long and ascending, it wouldnt sound as good as if I started it on a C note, I could just go for another subject although tonality wasnt really my goal anyway to be honest, I might make it so for future Fugues but not for this one unless I feel the need to start all over again.


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

I think you need to get some composition lessons as soon as possible.

I say this because I think you have a natural talent for composing - but there are huge gaps in your basic musical understanding which comes from being self-taught. This is shown by the way you write certain notes (B sharp, for example) and the fact that you're using a Common time time signature for a piece which would be better with changing time signatures (it begins in 3/4 time, for example).

I congratulate you on getting so far - but at the moment you're tackling an advanced project without knowing the basics.


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## JamieHoldham

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> I think you need to get some composition lessons as soon as possible.
> 
> I say this because I think you have a natural talent for composing - but there are huge gaps in your basic musical understanding which comes from being self-taught. This is shown by the way you write certain notes (B sharp, for example) and the fact that you're using a Common time time signature for a piece which would be better with changing time signatures (it begins in 3/4 time, for example).
> 
> I congratulate you on getting so far - but at the moment you're tackling an advanced project without knowing the basics.


I agree with pretty much everything you say, eventually I hope to get to atleast univeristy and study Music theory, maybe at College if I have to so I can understand better what I already do and learn more, also I am making advanced counterpoint works just because Bach is my favourite composer and I enjoy the technical finess of it, which I am trying to imitate badly at the moment. Wont stop me from trying and eventually getting better at it though.


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## Samuel Kristopher

> Wont stop me from trying and eventually getting better at it though.


While it's not my place to say, really, speaking from personal experience I've found that people make sense when they advise starting small and building up. I never used to listen to this advice myself in any area of life, whether it was learning an instrument or a language - I started out trying to learn difficult pieces or watch movies in the foreign language without any preparation. In all my years of doing these things, if there's one thing I learnt, it's that this strategy doesn't work very well - not as well as putting in the time and effort to build up one's skills in the right order.

Once I changed my approach to learning languages, I found myself increasing in fluency much faster. Once I stopped trying to learn concertos on the piano and switched to waltzes and tarantellas, I found myself able to play works from start to finish for the first time and, to my pleasant surprise, play them quite well. Once I stopped trying to compose symphonies and fugues (which despite their simplicity is pretty much the most challenging form to write in proficiently), I found the quality of my compositions improving massively.

Yeah, it feels more boring to start out with, and it might even feel like one isn't progressing. But as with all things in life, you don't start building a house by choosing the wallpaper or furniture.

At least give it a go. I have a lot of fun writing smaller scale pieces these days, and there's still plenty of room to get technical and virtuosic if that's one's bent


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## Johann Sebastian Bach

Samuel Kristopher talks a lot of sense.

I've taught many music students who want to write or play symphonies and concertos when they're not ready. Being ambitious is very important - but being realistically ambitious is the perfect place to be. 

I see you love Bach, as I do. Harmonising chorales using Bach's rules is still part of many of the UK's 'A' level music syllabuses, just as it was when I did my A levels and music degree 40 years ago. The fact that it's still part of the exam system points to how useful it is for young composers. There are plenty of on-line resources for chorale harmonisation, so it may be worth checking these out.

Looking back at your fugue (I'm still struck by how imaginative it is), I wonder if you've actually played it. The ornaments you use from bar 29 onwards are almost unplayable without hands as big as Rachmaninov's, so I suggest you also think about your pieces from a performer's perspective.

I really hope you'll keep going Jamie - you've a talent well worth developing.


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## JamieHoldham

Samuel Kristopher said:


> While it's not my place to say, really, speaking from personal experience I've found that people make sense when they advise starting small and building up. I never used to listen to this advice myself in any area of life, whether it was learning an instrument or a language - I started out trying to learn difficult pieces or watch movies in the foreign language without any preparation. In all my years of doing these things, if there's one thing I learnt, it's that this strategy doesn't work very well - not as well as putting in the time and effort to build up one's skills in the right order.
> 
> Once I changed my approach to learning languages, I found myself increasing in fluency much faster. Once I stopped trying to learn concertos on the piano and switched to waltzes and tarantellas, I found myself able to play works from start to finish for the first time and, to my pleasant surprise, play them quite well. Once I stopped trying to compose symphonies and fugues (which despite their simplicity is pretty much the most challenging form to write in proficiently), I found the quality of my compositions improving massively.
> 
> Yeah, it feels more boring to start out with, and it might even feel like one isn't progressing. But as with all things in life, you don't start building a house by choosing the wallpaper or furniture.
> 
> At least give it a go. I have a lot of fun writing smaller scale pieces these days, and there's still plenty of room to get technical and virtuosic if that's one's bent


I kind of agree and you make sense, I love to make fugues and use lots of counterpoint even though I am not the greatest at it and still learning so I definatly might try ethier just shorter fugues, not as much counterpoint for now or simplier styles such as a Sonata or something else.


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## JamieHoldham

Johann Sebastian Bach said:


> Samuel Kristopher talks a lot of sense.
> 
> I've taught many music students who want to write or play symphonies and concertos when they're not ready. Being ambitious is very important - but being realistically ambitious is the perfect place to be.
> 
> I see you love Bach, as I do. Harmonising chorales using Bach's rules is still part of many of the UK's 'A' level music syllabuses, just as it was when I did my A levels and music degree 40 years ago. The fact that it's still part of the exam system points to how useful it is for young composers. There are plenty of on-line resources for chorale harmonisation, so it may be worth checking these out.
> 
> Looking back at your fugue (I'm still struck by how imaginative it is), I wonder if you've actually played it. The ornaments you use from bar 29 onwards are almost unplayable without hands as big as Rachmaninov's, so I suggest you also think about your pieces from a performer's perspective.
> 
> I really hope you'll keep going Jamie - you've a talent well worth developing.


I had a look online at harmonising chorales after you advised me looking at them and it is a lot to take in, so I will definatly study it over time and it should prove to be useful. As for the unplayable parts I cant see it now since I deleted it all, but I cant play any instruments yet, I would love to learn Organ but its simply not possible at the moment and I heard I might have to learn Piano first before I can move onto Organ, but the unplayable parts unless it is really obvious then I cant really figure out if it is too difficult to be played, it is something I definatly need to consider though and will try to more often.

As for ambitiousness I agree I should be at the right balance of not too much and within a reasonable range, and as Sam was saying I shouldnt start out to difficult, but I wonder about Bach himself and how much he learnt from professionals or any music schools before he went on to create complex works, apart from the first prelude in the Well Tempered Clavier I cant think of any simple pieces he composed, even early in his life he composed one of the greatest Organ works of all time = the Passcagila and Fuge in C Minor, and he wasnt exactly a child prodigy.. did he just compose very difficult works and was naturally talented at counterpoint? By that I mean his compositions are pretty much perfect and faultless, despite him not making any sketches at all, baffles me how genuis he was. Anyway, its worth a try starting out simple and I guess its for the best.


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## Samuel Kristopher

I think it's very difficult for us to know what hard work and fruitless preparation these Masters had to go through before they started producing their masterworks, and even if that period began seemingly instantaneously (as in Mozart's case, for example), we can't forget that Mozart was surrounded by music from birth and could play piano well by age 4 and violin by 5, and he and his family lived in an environment that gave him little choice but to spend his life in music. I'm sure if you or I were blessed to have such an upbringing, we would already be composing in such forms effortlessly. 

I think there's nothing wrong with experimenting in the fugal form for now, and it certainly won't do any harm. I've found, however, that there's something to be learned from each genre in terms of composing, and my goal for myself is to write at least one piece (but hopefully several) in each form. 

And my last thought, which just occurred to me - I think Tchaikovsky is to me what Bach seems to be to you - the Master whose music I revere most and whose music probably has the biggest influence on me. Personally, though, I don't want to be a Tchaikovsky clone - I'd like to mature into my own distinct style before long, and I believe the way to do that is to practice imitating many composers and compositional eras, even if they aren't our favourites. I'm not a big fan of Baroque-era music myself, but I try to open myself up to the techniques and traditions because at the end of the day, it's all musical education, and it's going to make me more versatile and flexible as a composer


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## JamieHoldham

I definatly have a goal aswell to compose in as many forms as possible, to establish a understanding in all the many different types of "classical" music.

And with your view of not wanting to be a Tchaikovsky clone, I dont want to be a Bach clone ethier but not in that sense, I want to go into a realm further beyond what he did while staying somewhat distinct from his style of music, he never finished the Art of Fuge and I am certain there is more methods of counterpoint he didnt explore that I want to, and with his Organ music I want to try use more counterpoint for the feet on the pedal than he did, he rarely did so and I think thats something I can explore eventually, and I am sure there is more that I can do that he didnt in time, but yes I am most interested in the maths and technicality of music and want to try do it in ways Bach didnt.

Once I have been to Uni, and get a better general understanding of music theory  I am just composing to learn more and test different methods, educating myself at the moment.


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## prasad94

No offence, but in all honesty, I found this to be absolutely terrible! I'm not very well educated on fugues, but this piece was lacking in even basic counterpoint!

Now, don't get all sad about it. I used to compose pieces that were utterly terrible and think that they might have some potential I've kept these pieces and listened back to them and they are god-awful terrible! However, I have come a long way since then, so I would say don't stop! You have a basic understanding on how music notation works, so I'd advise you to go and read up on the basics of counterpoint and harmony. It will seem overwhelming as you begin, but you will find that the learning curve is one that is incredibly rewarding if you stick by it. 

So in all, this was terrible. Nothing about it gives it a sense of existing in the name of a Fugue. Don't be disheartened, try again. It's never too late to learn. We learn from our mistakes as humans, so the next time around will be a whole lot better!


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## JamieHoldham

prasad94 said:


> No offence, but in all honesty, I found this to be absolutely terrible! I'm not very well educated on fugues, but this piece was lacking in even basic counterpoint!
> 
> Now, don't get all sad about it. I used to compose pieces that were utterly terrible and think that they might have some potential I've kept these pieces and listened back to them and they are god-awful terrible! However, I have come a long way since then, so I would say don't stop! You have a basic understanding on how music notation works, so I'd advise you to go and read up on the basics of counterpoint and harmony. It will seem overwhelming as you begin, but you will find that the learning curve is one that is incredibly rewarding if you stick by it.
> 
> So in all, this was terrible. Nothing about it gives it a sense of existing in the name of a Fugue. Don't be disheartened, try again. It's never too late to learn. We learn from our mistakes as humans, so the next time around will be a whole lot better!


True, the theme was a bit longer than I should have made it also it was too boring to make for exciting fugue material, and it wasn't meant to be complicated at all if you read the first post, but anyways I have moved on from it and started a new one entirely which is a lot more better.


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