# Most complex polyphony ever weaved?



## Couchie

Which specific pieces have the most impressive/complex polyphony? Complexity could come for example from having a large number of voices, or a long and complicated subject, having very developed development, or a piece with interesting properties (ie. mirror fugues). Preferably tonal, but if you know of particularly endearing atonal counterpoint do post it. Youtube videos with scrolling scores would be amazing if you know of any.


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## TxllxT

*Thomas Tallis: Spem in alium*



















40-voice motet


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## Aramis

Try Philip Glass or Arvo Pärt


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## Delicious Manager

Aramis said:


> Try Philip Glass or Arvo Pärt


I can't think of a LESS likely candidate for complex polyphony than Philip Glass!


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## violadude

Bach's art of Fugue is the first thing that comes to mind for me. Also check out the 5th movement of Nielson's Alladin Suite. That's some pretty crazy stuff.


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## Il_Penseroso

Machaut : La Messe de Nostre Dame 

Ockeghem : Deo gratias 

English Madrigals from 16th Century 

and so far later : 

Richard Strauss : Ein Heldenleben , Sinfonia domestica and Elektra ...


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## joen_cph

The symphonic poem "Marin" (1963-70) about the sea by _Axel Borup Jørgensen _(1924 Denmark - ) has 55 individual string player parts and sometimes during a performance there are 90 individual note systems in the score. But one can´t really hear these complexities in either of the two recordings.

I don´t know if collage-like works count, but some of _Ives_´ orchestral works (4th Symphony, for instance), the mentioned _Nielsen_ suite and _Berio_´s Sinfonia (Scherzo Movement) also have some very intricate traits.

Going back in time, some pieces by for example _Gabrieli_ and early Baroque masses use multiple ensembles and choirs.

In the field of piano music, _Sorabji_ is certainly among the candidates for a first prize.

Oh yes, and works for large forces like _Brian_´s Gothic Symphony, _Mahler_´s "Sinfonie der Tausend", _Langgaard_´s "Music of the Spheres" ...


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## Webernite

From Bach's output:

Contrapunctus XI, XII, XIII and XIV from the _Art of Fugue_ BWV 1080
First movement of the _Mass in B minor_ BWV 232
BWV 686 and 682 from _Clavier-Übung III_
Ricercar a 6 from the _Musical Offering_ BWV 1079
BWV 849, 853, 865, 867, 872, 878, 883, 891 and 892 from the _Well-Tempered Clavier_

These are the works that come to mind at the moment, but there are lots of others dotted around the cantatas and elsewhere. This website has some good diagrams of the _Well-Tempered Clavier_ fugues, although the written analyses are a bit weird. You can find scrolling scores for most of the other pieces on Youtube.


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## Pieck

Delicious Manager said:


> I can't think of a LESS likely candidate for complex polyphony than Philip Glass!


Well, it's not a composer, but Glass is always more polyphonic than 4'33


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## Sofronitsky

BEHOLD.


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## Nix

How am I the first person to say Mozart 41? 

Mozart 41


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## Aramis

I remember being blown away by complexity of virtually any choral-orchestral work I've heard by Haydn, particularly Theresienmesse (Mass in B flat major).


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## Air

Webernite said:


> BWV 849, 853, 865, 867, 872, 878, *883*, 891 and 892 from the _Well-Tempered Clavier_
> 
> These are the works that come to mind at the moment, but there are lots of others dotted around the cantatas and elsewhere. This website has some good diagrams of the _Well-Tempered Clavier_ fugues, although the written analyses are a bit weird. You can find scrolling scores for most of the other pieces on Youtube.


Thank you man. Thank you, _thank you_! This is absolutely amazing... I owe you 50 likes, no joke. 

I'm playing the f# minor Prelude and Fugue (WTC II) right now (BWV 883) and have only, after taking in this commentary, begun to understand how great this work is - one of the masterpieces of all time, I'd say! I never thought of the tumbling motive of the 3rd subject as having so much significance - or that this P&F, along with the c# minor and b minor of the WTC I, were called the "passion fugues" since they had deeper spiritual meaning embedded in them by Bach. The 29 "Chi" (Cross figurations) in the work blew my socks off, how it related to Bach's monogram as well as the letters of his name (J=9, S=18, B=2, added together = 29) and the initials of Soli Deo Gloria (his reason for composing). I love how it is a combination of the best parts of the two passion fugues before it, culminating in the all-encompassing "cross" at the center, using 11 of the 12 chromatic notes in the scale, the centerpiece of Bach's entire WTC and oeuvre too! Wow, wow, wow.

I could go on, this is crazy awesome. Thanks for giving me a real 'passion' (pun intended) to play this piece this year. It will now be such an enjoyable experience.


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## PhillipPark

Pieck said:


> Well, it's not a composer, but Glass is always more polyphonic than 4'33


4'33 is probably the most polyphonic piece to exist. Hundreds of instruments breathing, coughing, sighing independently...


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## Manxfeeder

PhillipPark said:


> 4'33 is probably the most polyphonic piece to exist. Hundreds of instruments breathing, coughing, sighing independently...


That's an interesting observation. I guess technically that is polyphony, or many sounds. But I'm not sure that piece would qualify under the heading of "the most complex polyphony ever weaved," because "weaved" implies a weaver. 4'33 is more an awareness of happenstance.

I think John Cage would object to any form of design being placed on the piece other than how it stops and starts.


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## Webernite

Sofronitsky said:


> BEHOLD.


The problem with the studio recording of the Inventions and Sinfonias is that he's modified the piano so much that the hammers bounce up and down a little bit after he hits each note. I didn't notice it when I was a kid and my parents owned this record, but now when I listen to it it's a bit irritating. You'll hear it best if you go to 0:20 and listen carefully to the last note of the phrase (which is at about 0:24), but it affects every note to some extent. I guess it's not necessarily a bad thing, but someone on Amazon was complaining about it too, so I'm not alone.


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## Serge

I wonder is this site is holding the world record on the John Cage's 4'33" jokes? It better be!


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## Sofronitsky

Webernite said:


> The problem with the studio recording of the Inventions and Sinfonias is that he's modified the piano so much that the hammers bounce up and down a little bit after he hits each note. I didn't notice it when I was a kid and my parents owned this record, but now when I listen to it it's a bit irritating. You'll hear it best if you go to 0:20 and listen carefully to the last note of the phrase (which is at about 0:24), but it affects every note to some extent. I guess it's not necessarily a bad thing, but someone on Amazon was complaining about it too, so I'm not alone.


 I hear it too now


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## Ravellian

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but the finale of Bach's _A Musical Offering_ has a six-part fugue... Quite possibly the most complex fugue ever written.


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## Webernite

Sofronitsky said:


> I hear it too now


Sorry! Luckily there's an amazing live performance of most of the sinfonias, on a nice unmodified piano. He plays the sad ones better than the happy ones, but the trills are pretty staggering in both. My favorite is the G minor (at 5:00).

I've been posting a lot of Youtube videos recently, but it's really no way to listen to music. CDs are still the best way! Youtube always takes the edge off the sound quality.


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## Philip

Ravellian said:


> Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but the finale of Bach's _A Musical Offering_ has a six-part fugue... Quite possibly the most complex fugue ever written.


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## Philip




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## Stasou

Palestrina! Not particularly complex lines, but lots of them going on.


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## Stasou

Also multiple canonic sections in the finale of Concerto for Orchestra. One of them based on the opening horn line, and the other one 8--5--1-------425-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-7b-5. I hope my notation makes sense.


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## violadude

Stasou said:


> Also multiple canonic sections in the finale of Concerto for Orchestra. One of them based on the opening horn line, and the other one 8--5--1-------425-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-7b-5. I hope my notation makes sense.


Which Concerto For Orchestra would that be? Bartok's?


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## Delicious Manager

The composer Carl Ruggles used to compose on specially-made giant sheets of manuscript paper stuck to the walls of his studio. This was so he could follow at a glance how the complex contrapuntal lines in his powerful music unfolded and developed.


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## crmoorhead

Air said:


> I'm playing the f# minor Prelude and Fugue (WTC II) right now (BWV 883) and have only, after taking in this commentary, begun to understand how great this work is - one of the masterpieces of all time, I'd say! I never thought of the tumbling motive of the 3rd subject as having so much significance - or that this P&F, along with the c# minor and b minor of the WTC I, were called the "passion fugues" since they had deeper spiritual meaning embedded in them by Bach. The 29 "Chi" (Cross figurations) in the work blew my socks off, how it related to Bach's monogram as well as the letters of his name (J=9, S=18, B=2, added together = 29) and the initials of Soli Deo Gloria (his reason for composing). I love how it is a combination of the best parts of the two passion fugues before it, culminating in the all-encompassing "cross" at the center, using 11 of the 12 chromatic notes in the scale, the centerpiece of Bach's entire WTC and oeuvre too! Wow, wow, wow.
> 
> I could go on, this is crazy awesome. Thanks for giving me a real 'passion' (pun intended) to play this piece this year. It will now be such an enjoyable experience.


This is why I should have taken an interest much earlier in life. I understood only a bit of that reply, but will endeavour to listen to this piece very carefully. I have a great deal of respect for the people on this forum and it's great to learn more from people who know considerably more than I.


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## Aksel

Ravellian said:


> Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but the finale of Bach's _A Musical Offering_ has a six-part fugue... Quite possibly the most complex fugue ever written.


Hardly. At least when it comes to the number of voices, Verdi's Falstaff concludes with a 9 or 10 part fugue (I can't remember. I think it's 9). Although that is for 9 or 10 singers. I won't argue when it comes to solo keyboard fugues.


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## regressivetransphobe

Manxfeeder said:


> That's an interesting observation. I guess technically that is polyphony, or many sounds. But I'm not sure that piece would qualify under the heading of "the most complex polyphony ever weaved," because "weaved" implies a weaver. 4'33 is more an awareness of happenstance.
> 
> I think John Cage would object to any form of design being placed on the piece other than how it stops and starts.


We should probably just rename this the 4'33'' forum. Talk4'33''. All 4'33'', all the time.


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## Manxfeeder

regressivetransphobe said:


> We should probably just rename this the 4'33'' forum. Talk4'33''. All 4'33'', all the time.


As Cage would say, "I have nothing to say, and the fact that I say it is art."


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## tdc

Aksel said:


> Hardly. At least when it comes to the number of voices, Verdi's Falstaff concludes with a 9 or 10 part fugue (I can't remember. I think it's 9). Although that is for 9 or 10 singers. I won't argue when it comes to solo keyboard fugues.


For a nine part fugue this piece really maintains its sense of simplicity and cohesion...a beautiful excerpt. I'm impressed.


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## ScipioAfricanus

last movement of Bruckner's 5th symphony is the best


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## Philip

Aksel said:


> Hardly. At least when it comes to the number of voices, Verdi's Falstaff concludes with a 9 or 10 part fugue (I can't remember. I think it's 9). Although that is for 9 or 10 singers. I won't argue when it comes to solo keyboard fugues.


i fail to see the complexity..


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## PhillipPark

The Kyrie from Mozart's Requiem is pretty crazy!


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## Stasou

violadude said:


> Which Concerto For Orchestra would that be? Bartok's?


Yes, Bartok's. Sorry about that


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## hespdelk

Having been composed for solo piano (though a four hand version also exists) it can't quite contend for highest number of voices ever, but for complexity Busoni's massive Fantasia contrappuntistica has few equals.

Also worthy of mention is Richard Strauss' Metamorphosen for string orchestra - so deliciously interwoven.


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## Sofronitsky

I think Couchie's question of 'Most complex polyphony' was pretty well answered on the first reply with the 40-voice motet. I honestly thought the rest of this thread was going to be off-topic fooling around.

Why is everyone here so mature?


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## tdc

tdc said:


> For a nine part fugue this piece really maintains its sense of simplicity and cohesion...a beautiful excerpt. I'm impressed.


For the record this comment had nothing to do with me thinking Verdi's fugue was more or less complex than Bach's, simply that I liked Verdi's use of voices in that clip.


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## HerlockSholmes

This thread is my very personal paradise and it will forever belong to me.


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## clavichorder

HerlockSholmes said:


> This thread is my very personal paradise and it will forever belong to me.


Indeed, you have a definite fetish for everything counterpoint.


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## HerlockSholmes

clavichorder said:


> Indeed, you have a definite fetish for everything counterpoint.


No, it must be true love. Hot sweet erotic musical love, that is.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Probably something by Berg.

There are a number of complex polyphonies where the individual melodies can't be heard and/or are kind of lame on their own and/or just plain weird (ex. tampered bird song in Olivier Messiaen's Chronochromie) and/or are actually heterophonies.


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## LHB

For one instrument, Barrett Tract has 7-8 voices all in different tempi and rhythms. For orchestral, possibly Ligeti Atmospheres, although there is stuff by Ferneyhough that can easily contend.


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## Guest

joen_cph said:


> The symphonic poem "Marin" (1963-70) about the sea by _Axel Borup Jørgensen _(1924 Denmark - ) has 55 individual string player parts and sometimes during a performance there are 90 individual note systems in the score. But one can´t really hear these complexities in either of the two recordings.


Is this one of the two? I'm having trouble finding a US source for it.


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## Lukecash12

Holy crap, I saw a reference to this earlier and it takes the cake handily! I need to buy this *right now*!






Tallis, Gesualdo, and Gombert... these dudes knock my socks off on a regular basis.


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## Cosmos

Adding to the already great mentions:

Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata fugue finale is pretty cool,
As is his Grosse Fuge

Both have long, complex themes.

A much more modest addition: the first 21 bars of Scriabin's 8th Sonata is pretty captivating


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## MarkW

Well, other than the fact it should be "woven" -- one of most difficult for performers is the fugue that ends the Credo in Beethoven's Missa Solemnis.


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## Stirling

The Central African Republic has a fair degree of poly-rhythm as does gamelan, as well as non-12 tone works. It all depend how out there you want to get.


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## Chordalrock

Gombert - Media vita:






I doubt that there's anything truly more complex than that while also remaining great music. Gombert doesn't deal with doubling or, usually, antiphonal effects: his complexity isn't an illusion. When a motet of his is in six parts, you'll know that it's actually about as complex as that implies. The same can't be said for the Tallis piece mentioned earlier. It's also not just the number of independent voices, but the way Gombert treats them that creates complexity.

By the way, I like how the singers perform that piece in that video, but that motet is so complex that you need to hear different interpretations to get any idea of its latent possibilities, because different ensembles shape the music differently, bringing out different voices at certain times. I especially recommend Henry's Eight, but I like the Hilliard Ensemble and the Huelgas Ensemble as well.

(I wonder if anyone has ever tried a performance of Gombert's music with the voices in perfect balance. Some of my midi experiments suggest that it might not sound very good. I think Gombert was certainly pushing the boundaries of acceptable complexity in music.)


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## Aleksandar

I'm listening to Mendelssohn string quartets for the first time right now. As far as I can hear, there's lots of polyphony here. Can't say which movement is the most complex so far though.


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## DeepR

Not so serious but...






There seems to be some kind of contest going on youtube... I think Hamelin's Circus Galop started this.
MIDI Size: 279 MB
MIDI Note Count: 35,279,348 notes


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## EdwardBast

Before identifying "the most complex polyphony ever woven," it might be wise to decide a few things about what polyphonic complexity means. It seems to me that as many as six parameters should be considered in evaluating complexity:

1. Thread count, the number of lines in the texture.
If this were all there was to it, Tallis' Spam in Aluminum and the first movement of Schnittke's Third Symphony might be early favorites.

2. Individuality and characterfulness of line. 
Are we talking relatively simplistic and commonplace motives and fragments like those in the finale of Mozart 41? Or full blown, spun out melodies with distinctive personalities? It seems to me that weaving together several of the latter while preserving their individual characters could be considerably more challenging than combining five of the former.

3. Length of line. 
Two measure bits or twenty measure arches?

4. Motivic parsimony.
Skill at weaving a complex texture out of different versions of a single short melody or line through procedures like augmentation (casting the melody in doubled, tripled, etc., note values), diminution (in halved or quartered note values), in retrograde or in inversion has been highly regarded from the retrograde canons of the 14thc (e.g., Machaut, _Ma fin es ma commencement_) through Bach's The Art of Fugue to just about any complex serial work of the 20thc.

5. Degree of invertibility.
Yes, this is rather arcane, but it comes up whenever someone mentions Mozart 41. And there have been whole treatises written on the types and intricacies of invertible counterpoint. (Invertible counterpoint is writing in which each of the individual lines can be interchanged as bottom, top and middle lines of the texture.)

6. Rigor of dissonance treatment. 
Combining lines in accordance with strict rules for the introduction and resolution of dissonances, as in the Baroque Era, could be considered a more complex task than doing the same under a more relaxed regime of dissonance treatment (Ars Nova or 20thc).

Depending on which among these six parameters one emphasizes, one could come up with very different answers to the OP's query.


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## Chordalrock

EdwardBast said:


> 5. Degree of invertibility.
> Yes, this is rather arcane, but it comes up whenever someone mentions Mozart 41. And there have been whole treatises written on the types and intricacies of invertible counterpoint. (Invertible counterpoint is writing in which each of the individual lines can be interchanged as bottom, top and middle lines of the texture.)
> 
> 6. Rigor of dissonance treatment.
> Combining lines in accordance with strict rules for the introduction and resolution of dissonances, as in the Baroque Era, could be considered a more complex task than doing the same under a more relaxed regime of dissonance treatment (Ars Nova or 20thc).
> 
> Depending on which among these six parameters one emphasizes, one could come up with very different answers to the OP's query.


Whether invertible counterpoint is a nice trick or nothing at all, depends of course on whether you treat fourths as a dissonance to be avoided. But I don't think dissonance treatment in general affects the sense of complexity of the aural picture that you get as a listener. It does affect the complexity of the composer's task though.


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## danielstahl

I would like to mention two other Ockeghem pieces. Missa cuiusvis toni, 



, which is written so it can be sung in any of four different "modes" and Missa prolationum, 



, who has mensuration canons in every movement. A mensuration canon is a canon where the imitations have different speeds then the main melody.


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## Mohayeji

.................


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## Mohayeji

PhillipPark said:


> 4'33 is probably the most polyphonic piece to exist. Hundreds of instruments breathing, coughing, sighing independently...


Psh! Nonsense...


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## Schoenberg

PhillipPark said:


> 4'33 is probably the most polyphonic piece to exist. Hundreds of instruments breathing, coughing, sighing independently...


This is seriously true, especially when you take into account the various plumbing that many fixtures have, and the periodic polyrythms that they have with each other.


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## Mandryka

This may be relevant to anyone interested in the question posed by the thread


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## Bwv 1080

Brumel’s 12-voice ‘Earthquake’ Mass

Spem in Alium really is a 5 voice work (it’s 8 antiphonal 5 part choirs, not 40 independent voices) while Brumel’s work for 24 singers has 12 independent parts


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## Mandryka

Josquin, _Qui Habitat_, 24 voices four 6 voice canons.






This sounds unbelievably complicated to me, Rebelo's _Lauda Jerusalem_






And this in a different way and a different idea of complexity, Ferneyhough's _Missa Brevis_


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## hammeredklavier

Something I find interesting in this regard:
Luigi Cherubini - Quadruple Fugue on "Et vitam venturi" from Credo a 8 voci (1806)






_"Scored for SATB double choir, Luigi Cherubini's Credo (begun in 1778 and finished in 1806) is a complex exercise in contrapuntal writing. Its crowning jewel is a setting of the concluding words "Et vitam venturi saeculi Amen" as an extensive fugue on four subjects and two countersubjects. Its demonstrates Cherubini's prowess as a master of contrapuntal writing and has been said to rival some of the vocal fugues of J.S. Bach."_

Regardless of the number of voices, if a work is homo-rhythmic for the most part, I don't think we can say it's contrapuntally complex. Number of subjects, and variety rhythm also affects complexity as well, in my view.


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## Larkenfield

L. Cherubini's fascinating Treatise on Counterpoint and Fugue:
https://archive.org/details/treatiseoncounte002279mbp/page/n3
He considered the art of writing fugues as the "true foundation of composing." Beethoven considered him one of the best of his contemporaries.

"The young composer, who shall carefully follow the instructions contained within this treatise, once having mastered those upon fugue, will have no more need of lessons, but will be able to write with purity in all styles, and will with ease, while studying the form of different kinds of compositions, acquire the power of expressing clearly his own ideas, so as to produce the effect he desires." -Cherubini


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## Sad Al

Nicholas Gombert masses?


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## larold

Late in Part 1 of Robert Simpson's two-part 9th symphony one hears the duel of Simpson's "orchestral cells" where part of the orchestra is playing one thing and another part another -- simultaneously. There is a portion where strings and winds are playing in 8ths and the brass are in halves. 

There is similar stuff in Charles Ives' Symphony No. 4. In Stokowski's recording he used a second conductor to manage the score.


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