# Favorite Work from Haydn



## Classical Playlists (Jan 26, 2020)

Another week another poll, this time Haydn. Is my suspicion that Haydn is often skipped in discussions correct? Curious to see the results.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The poll isn't up yet, but for me it's The Creation, Cello Concerto no. 1, and Op 77.


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## Geoff48 (Aug 15, 2020)

Symphony 94 in G. Not for the surprise, I suspect there can be few people who don’t anticipate the Big Bang, and many performances moderate it down anyway, nut because it’s just a really enjoyable work. Would it be so popular without the nickname? Possibly not. With a composer like Haydn who wrote over a hundred symphonies nicknames are a way of distinguishing one from another particularly where most of them are fine works. Having said which No 88 is a wonderful work also and doesn’t seem to have a nickname although I once remember seeing it described long ago as the slightly risqué French letter symphony.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Rather a draw between the kettle drum, harmonie and Theresa masses.


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## Axter (Jan 15, 2020)

The Seasons and Symph 94 for me.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I voted all.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Certain slow movements from Op.76 string quartets, No.1, No.4, No.6 (fantasia) are decent.



hammeredklavier said:


> Aside from the op.76, I find this memorable. - the C minor slow movement (2nd movement) of Op.54 no.2 in C major. The ending where , after a deceptive cadence, the first violin doesn't resolve with the rest of the ensemble and continues to hammer on the leading tone, until the whole thing finally ends in the dominant major (!) (I'm not sure whether to interpret this as a movemental end, or a transition to the next movement) the "transition" is marked "attacca", - something Beethoven would later have written.
> 
> I think that the Classicists' string quartets contain some of their most contemplative, spiritual utterances. For example, I think of the first and third movements of Mozart's G minor quintet anticipate his Domine jesu and recordare. Whereas the et incarnatus est of Beethoven Op.123 anticipate the slow movement of his A minor quartet.
> 
> ...


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The Nelson Mass is my overall favorite with the cello concerti and many of the string quartets simmering just beneath. The Creation is often called his magnum opus, and I like it, but it's a little too long and "samey" for my liking. My favorite symphonies are "The Miracle", "Drumroll," and the Paris and Sturm und Drang groupings.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Of the works featured above, the Trumpet Concerto. Otherwise my favourites tend to be somewhat off the beaten track (symphonies 87 and 97, piano concerto in F, horn concerto no.1) so I was on a Haydn to nothing with this poll.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

The last 10 or so piano sonatas, the "Paris" and "London" symphonies, the two cello concertos and The Creation. I have to admit that chamber music isn't one of my favorite genres.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> I find this memorable. - the C minor slow movement (2nd movement) of Op.54 no.2 in C major. The ending where , after a deceptive cadence, the first violin doesn't resolve with the rest of the ensemble and continues to hammer on the leading tone, until the whole thing finally ends in the dominant major (!) (I'm not sure whether to interpret this as a movemental end, or a transition to the next movement) the "transition" is marked "attacca", - something Beethoven would later have written..


Probably my favorite movement in all of Haydn. A Jewish violinist I know plays his solo with immense passion, and points out its resemblance to the weeping inflections of cantorial singing. The next movement, the minuet, has some extraordinary harmony that echoes the lamentation of the adagio.

In general, I like Haydn's quartets best of all his music. Of the symphonies I'm fondest of the _Sturm und Drang_ period and the "Paris" symphonies. I like _The Creation_ fairly well - actually it's mainly that chromatic introduction that enchants me, Wagnerian that I am - but I'm mostly indifferent to the masses. With few exceptions Classical period choral works don't do much for me.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Symphony 83 "La Poule."


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

The Creation
Sym #88
Sym #104

Other symphonies too numerous to list, I also really enjoy the Trumpet concerto and the Sinfonia Concertante for Vln, Cllo, Ob and Bssn


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> Probably my favorite movement in all of Haydn. A Jewish violinist I know plays his solo with immense passion, and points out its resemblance to the weeping inflections of cantorial singing. The next movement, the minuet, has some extraordinary harmony that echoes the lamentation of the adagio.
> 
> In general, I like Haydn's quartets best of all his music. Of the symphonies I'm fondest of the _Sturm und Drang_ period and the "Paris" symphonies. I like _The Creation_ fairly well - actually it's mainly that chromatic introduction that enchants me, Wagnerian that I am - but I'm mostly indifferent to the masses. With few exceptions Classical period choral works don't do much for me.


Surely, that "exception" includes Mozart's Great C minor Mass and his Requiem?


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The Creation and the Opus 33 and 77 quartets are the epitomes of the Classical Style.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ORigel said:


> Surely, that "exception" includes Mozart's Great C minor Mass and his Requiem?


They're probably the main exceptions, though I like parts of them - mainly the Baroque-influenced parts - more than other parts. Still, I generally prefer the actual Baroque for choral works.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

All of the above, but mostly any of the Paris 6 or London 12 (plus #88).

I've got lots of Haydn video walkthroughs on my blog if anyone is interested:

http://somethingclassical.blogspot.com


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> but I'm mostly indifferent to the masses. With few exceptions Classical period choral works don't do much for me.


I agree Joseph's string quartets are the best part of his output. I understand your lack of appreciation for the liturgical vocal music of late 18th century composers. But I think that in this field, there are so many ways to work with elements that truly represent Classicism, such as dramatic mood shifts, classical "sense of space", and formal organization (with elements such as "sense of disregard for the Baroque doctrine of the affections" [ 10:48 , 12:05 ] , and "through-composed movements", where thematic connection spans from the beginning to the concluding fugue [ 7:29 , 17:39] ).

I hate to be judgmental**, but Joseph lacks much of what I appreciate about the Salzburgians - various use of "stile antico", (with varying degrees of archaism) , angularities, idiosyncrasies, [ 18:07 ] and rhythmic drive, -and I think he resorts to "artificial, static ways of melodic development", and pomposity, -creating a "homogeneity of feel". (The endless pomposity of the harmoniemesse, for example, is to me, rather tiring on the ear)

Missa sancti Gabrielis: 



 (I like the buildup of dissonance starting at 6:43)
Missa sancti Nicolai Tolentini: 



Missa sancti Joannis Nepomuceni: 



(the way to build up feels far more "natural" than anything by Joseph, imv)





For example, look at his ways to set the text "suscipe deprecationem" (which I think is the "emotional center" of the Gloria) to music in these cases, Joseph is, imv, clearly being a typical, uninspired kapellmeister:









To me, they're like something an uninspired kapellmeister who was "obliged to churn out" would have written. It just seems to me he can't think of something better, so he just keeps clinging to that melodic phrase "F-D-B(b)" and then bland chords to make his argument. (It seems rather unimaginative to me.) Compare them with, for example:















hammeredklavier said:


> ( 6:32 ~ 7:45 )
> This is way too much. The guy apparently has found something good for a melody. He clings to it with all his might, trying to arouse emotion in the listener with it. Way too artificial (almost sickening, imv).


**I still think certain parts such as the Gratias agimus tibi from the Theresienmesse are ok


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> They're probably the main exceptions, though I like parts of them - mainly the Baroque-influenced parts - more than other parts. Still, I generally prefer the actual Baroque for choral works.


Ok, but a lot of times, it's hard to tell which parts are really "Baroque-influenced" and which are not:






I once wrote:

"...one of the complaints about Bach was that his cantatas were too operatic. More than any other composer he introduced the Italian opera style into church music, something his predecessor Johann Kuhnau had always resisted." <Bach Cantatas Website: "Bach and Opera">

I think people tend to overlook the fact Bach was interested in bringing operatic elements into other types of music, and was pretty forward-looking in this regard - the development of the "Neapolitan mass", the "stilus ecclesiasticus mixtus" or mixed church style, which combined traditional contrapuntal choruses with coloratura solo arias and ensembles, which theoreticians such as J.J. Fux and M. Spiess opposed.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


>


Glorious Bach! The long-spun, interwoven lines, endless melody and constant harmonic motion, never resting till the end, an unstoppable dance of beauty and wonder, like the forces of nature... Thanks for reminding me of what I don't get in Classical works.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

ORigel said:


> Opus 33 and 77 quartets are the epitomes of the Classical Style.


Interesting to see this, to think about how the style changed between from op 33 to op 77.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

hammeredklavier said:


> **I still think certain parts such as the Gratias agimus tibi from the Theresienmesse are ok


I think the slow movement of the 80th symphony (probably my favorite Haydn symphony slow movement) is also decent. To me, like the 1st cello concerto, it evokes a feeling of nostalgia for the Classical period in a different way from that of Mozart's 34th, for example. I used to be impressed by the sustained note in the brass in the development of the 78th symphony 1st movement. That "bam~~~~~" the brass does while the strings do their own stuff. It thought it was dramatic in effect, in a way distinctive and unique from the styles of other Classicists. But then I became somewhat less enthusiastic about it when I learned that it's actually not Haydn's orignal orchestration, but H. C. Robbins Landon's reorchestration of the Haydn work. 




Likewise, the Svanisce in un momento from Il ritorno di Tobia, and Sonata V and the Earthquake finale from the Seven Last Words of Christ also strike me as somewhat dramatic. But generally, there's something about Joseph's sense of drama that puts me off a little. The fast movements of the "sturm-und-drang-in-a-teapot" 44th and 49th for example, strikes me as rather "annoyingly whiny" rather than "dramatic". 
Perhaps I would have regarded him more highly if he could write like these:




 (11:20 ~ 13:39)























ORigel said:


> The Creation and the Opus 33 and 77 quartets are the epitomes of the Classical Style.


All the well-known stories about Joseph's contribution to the classical music tradition (about how he was "The Founding Father of Classicism" or whatever) are in my view, quite overblown to be honest. Nowadays I find more common traits between stuff like Michael's string quintet MH189, symphonies MH287, 384 with Mozart's K.458, K.387, K.551. (In catholic music, their Salzburgian practice proved exemplary to Beethoven, Weber, Schubert, Bruckner, etc to a far greater extent than Joseph's.)
On the whole, I find Joseph to be a bit too much a "nice guy" and a "joke symphonist". A "failed opera composer who turned to catholic music". Sorry. He's not an epitome of anything, imv, but just one of many composers. He wrote good stuff (such as the chaos intro to Die schöpfung and 78th symphony) but his contemporaries always wrote "better" stuff. (the adagio intro to the dissonance quartet K.465 and the C minor concerto K.491) 
Sorry to be negative, but I really had to "say it".


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## Classical Playlists (Jan 26, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I think the slow movement of the 80th symphony (probably my favorite Haydn symphony slow movement) is also decent. To me, like the 1st cello concerto, it evokes a feeling of nostalgia for the Classical period in a different way from that of Mozart's 34th, for example. I used to be impressed by the sustained note in the brass in the development of the 78th symphony 1st movement. That "bam~~~~~" the brass does while the strings do their own stuff. It thought it was dramatic in effect, in a way distinctive and unique from the styles of other Classicists. But then I became somewhat less enthusiastic about it when I learned that it's actually not Haydn's orignal orchestration, but H. C. Robbins Landon's reorchestration of the Haydn work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting statement, but I wonder whether the often less dramatic attitude was not simply normal at the time. The way you describe Haydn could just as well be Mozart to me. For me, Mozart and Haydn can each be incredibly efficient and effective in their own way due to their subtle writing, and that sets them apart from other composers of the time.
But everyone his own opinion ...
But what about, for example, this work by Haydn?




If you're talking about 'nice guy' Haydn with only joy in his compositions, what does a composition like this do for you? Can you feel the emotional depth?


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

The Maria Theresa Mass is the one I'm most moved by. I think it has a lot more continuity than the Nelson Mass from what I recall.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

....................................


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm reminded of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bach can be like this, he fills his work always with any degree of craft and substance, but I feel in the whole of a work he doesn't always sound thematically thorough or harmonically interesting, lacking the 'greater rewards' of planning things out. What this quote doesn't sound like to me is Mozart, who almost paradoxically doesn't seem consistently engaged, and yet in this guise at the whim of a sketch always turns things completely around to show us the colossal meaning of his vision. His music isn't always engaged into complex trivialities like Bach, instead it is always perfectly planned. That's the meaning of a 'great composer' to me. When I say Bach isn't always very harmonically interesting, that's because of his weaker foundation in thematic development--basic non-chromatic harmonic theory like your circle of 5ths can often sound 'incredibly' boring if it doesn't have a bit of planning behind it. People who don't understand rhythm and development, usually like Bach more than Mozart. They're not wrong in their preference, but it's a blind spot ime. So I don't put much stock in this quote personally, as it overlooks the big picture of composition.


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## MusicInTheAir (Apr 21, 2007)

It's impossible to pick a favorite work by Haydn. Symphonies which are right up there on my list are nos. 45, 102 - 104, 96, 98, 82, 83, and 48. Though I wouldn't consider the symphonies nos. 6,13, 34, 39, 44, 46, 54, and 78 quite up to the first set I named, they're very special to me. The "Sunrise" and "Quinten" quartets are among my favorite string quartets. But again, Opus 1/3 & 1/2 are very special to me because they were the first Haydn quartets I really got to know. Both Cello Concertos are right up there on my list as are the "Nelson" Mass and the "Mass in Time of War." Love his Piano Concerto in D. I wish the recording Vasso Devetzi and Barshai made of it was around.


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## Musicaterina (Apr 5, 2020)

I voted "Cello concerto No.1", but I also like the other cello concerto of Haydn very much.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Love Cello Concerto no 1


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## Classical Playlists (Jan 26, 2020)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm wondering if you have seriously listened to the examples I posted previously and understood what I meant. A lot of things I've described about Joseph Haydn in posts #18, #22 are objective facts. (I could go on and on regarding this topic)


I believe that's true, and I don't want to contradict. What I meant was different from how you understood it. I meant that things like 'less melodic development' 'dry harmony' 'simpel compositional style' and overall 'fun music' are characteristics of that time. If People hate a melody's beginning based on 'I-V-I', no problem but don't say that composers from the classical era are simple and not important.



hammeredklavier said:


> Are you the kind of person who accepts what your school teachers have told you as "unquestionable truth", rather than investigating things yourself and thinking/assessing them critically? For example, like in the Joseph Haydn sonata you posted, the sort of monothematicism Joseph does (relies on) all the time in instrumental music, could just be his method to cover up his deficiencies in melodic invention. (Who knows for sure?)
> Why don't you, in turn, describe to us your experience with the music of these composers, and your evaluation of them:
> 
> *Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach (1714 ~ 1788)
> Johann Michael Haydn (1737 ~ 1806)*


I have to admit I think you have more experience than I have, I'm only 19 ... The only thing I am trying to defend is the fact that I like Haydn, every year more and more. And the reason I can think of is his way of writing music. I know that doesn't sound specific, but I don't always know why. I think what attracts me to Haydn are his melodies, his harmonisation, the flow he creates in his music (very important!) and the purity. If I compare him with CPE Bach, who could possibly be described as more emotional and progressive, than I would say CPE Bach hasn't yet convinced me. His music is likable, but that's it for me. That could change, maybe, but for now I enjoy Haydn a lot more. Michael haydn, I don't have a lot of experience with him, only heard his requiem ...

I think it is an interesting discussion, especially because I like to hear what people don't like about a composer and how I experience it myself. if you prefer to have the discussion in another post, that's also good for me.


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