# Hans Werner Henze



## Sid James

*Hans Werner Henze *(b.1926) is one of the most significant European composers of the C20th.

In 1944, at the age of seventeen, Henze was dragged out of music school and drafted into the German army. He was later captured and stayed in a British prisoner of war camp. After the war, he resumed his musical studies with Wolfgang Fortner and Rene Leibowitz. Following this he took up various directorships and advisorships, before leaving Germany to live in Italy in 1950. The reasons for this are clear: the heavy handed way homosexuals were treated in Germany by the police and courts, and the banning of the German Communist party, in which Henze was actively involved. He also didn't like the way his countrymen were dealing with the aftermath of the holocaust by putting their heads in the sand.

Henze is probably the most political composer of the C20th. His operas, in particular, are based on political ideas and stories. He has taken the expressionism of Hindemith, the modernism of Stravinsky, and the serialism of Schoenberg as starting points to build a unique style. He has written music in all genres, operas, ballets, symphonies, concertos, chamber music and vocal.

I have just acquainted myself with his Violin Concertos. His _Violin Concerto No. 1_ is one of the best I have heard for the instrument. Although it is influenced by the serialism of Berg's Concerto, it is a very passionate, intense and dark work. It is not academic or dry and sounds very mature for the work of a 21 year old. Indeed, the horrors he must have witnessed at a very young age during the war must have contributed greatly to this maturity.

I am interested in what other works people know by this remarkable composer.


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## Lisztfreak

I have heard only two compositions by this composer, his Symphony No.7 and Ariosi su poesie di Torquato Tasso (for soprano, violin and orchestra). 

The symphony is extremely dark and totally atonal, so it's definitely not my cup of tea. It is, however, very interesting and mysterious, so I would recommend it to those who like atonal music better than I do.

The Ariosi, also atonal, are much more gentle and lyrical, and although I don't listen to the work often, I find it quite attractive and listenable. The soprano and the violin intertwine beautifully.


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## Herzeleide

Andre said:


> *Hans Werner Henze *(b.1926) is one of the most significant European composers of the C20th.


Bit of an overstatement, non?


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## Sid James

Herzeleide said:


> Bit of an overstatement, non?


No, not at all. There are entries of him in most of the general books on classical composers I've read, including _The Rough Guide to Classical Music_. These books tend to leave out some other composers, such as Ernest Bloch and Arthur Bliss, but not Henze.

Henze has been one of the major figures of the music scene in Europe for decades & is still active, as far as I can gather. Even though his style has changed, is difficult to shoebox & he has had his idiosyncracies, he has had big staying power. You can't say that of many composers today. & as I stated above, his music comes from a wide range of influences, including neo-classicism, atonalism, modernism, jazz & even rock. So he has reacted to the current trends, whatever they may be, but has maintained his unique style.



Lisztfreak said:


> I have heard only two compositions by this composer, his Symphony No.7 and Ariosi su poesie di Torquato Tasso (for soprano, violin and orchestra)...very interesting and mysterious...attractive and listenable...I would recommend it to those who like atonal music better than I do.


In contrast, thanks for sharing your experience of those works. I think one needs to have this flexibility when listening to contemporary music. I am interested in such works & plan to get more Henze at some stage in the future. I think that his atonalism is more like that of Berg than Schoenberg, less academic and more expressive.


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## danae

Andre said:


> There are entries of him in most of the general books on classical composers I've read, including _The Rough Guide to Classical Music_


Personally I'd stay away from books like that (generally speaking, not regarding H.W.Henze)


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## Sid James

danae said:


> Personally I'd stay away from books like that (generally speaking, not regarding H.W.Henze)


Well, _The Rough Guide to Classical Music _was actually praised by BBC music magazine for being "no idiot's guide." I think it is a useful book for a layperson like me, but if you want to get more academic, then by all means go to access specialist music journals, etc. I think that books like this are a good starting point for people interested in classical music.

Getting back to Henze, I've just re-listened to his_ Violin Concerto No. 1_ & it appears to me that there is somewhat of a struggle in it going on between the orchestra, which sounds rather brutal at times, and the soloist. The latter seems to shelter from the onslaught of sounds from the orchestra by going solo, playing short or longer cadenzas throughout each movement. It's like a solitary person's struggle against a nightmare, caught in the wilderness. This is particularly apparent in the final movement, which employs the rhythms found in Stravinsky's music.

If you asked me whether I liked Schoenberg's or Henze's _Violin Concerto _better, I would choose the latter. It seems more emotional and expressive. It is tied up with the composer's own mental and physical struggle as a young man who had experienced the horror of war.


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## Frasier

Henze has established himself as deriving from no school and belonging to no school. One will always find 'influences' if looking for them but generally he stands alone having weathered the 60s avant garde and its unfortunate fallout from the 90s onwards. He seemed to take up the Romantic cause at first in works like Undine and the (hugely political) Raft of the Medusa but developed beyond that.

A composer to whom I can always listen. The Cantata is particularly beautiful.


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## Oskaar

Time to get the dust of this thread! 
I am a newborn fan. Dont know much yet, but he tuch something by me.


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## Ukko

oskaar said:


> Time to get the dust of this thread!
> I am a newborn fan. Dont know much yet, but he tuch something by me.


Yeah, good dusting. I enjoy Henze's instrumental music. Mostly the phrases don't connect with me, but the 'long line' does. In that way he is similar to Berg.


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## Oskaar

Wonderful record!





http://www.amazon.com/20th-Century-...XXU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323115429&sr=8-1










*Barcarola City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra/Sir Simon Rattle*

Thrilling and adventurous. Very intensive, and sometime it seems that all instruments are highlighted at once! Loveley chaos. I dont find it difficult to listen too. So much is happening, and I find that exiting. Also a lot of moods and textures are exposed.

*Symphony No. 7 City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra/Sir Simon Rattle*

Great nerve, and it creates great images and moods. When I'm in the mood for this kind of music, it's definitely the music that gives me the most. I am an old prog-rock fan, and repeated adventures with such as Gentle Giant, makes me well trained to get more out of this music.

*Sinfonie Nr.9 Für Gem. Chor Und Orchester:	Berliner Philharmoniker/Rundfunkchor Berlin/Ingo Metzmacher*

I have not explored as much choral music yet, but there is no doubt that it is amazing when I listen to it. The work is fantastic! Very dramatic and exciting and full of highlights. "Bei the Toten" gives me goosebumps! It makes "die plates spricht" too. I think it's much easier to like choral music when there are so many variations that here, in relation to f.ex Bach where it gets too repetitive. But I'll probably get to the point where I like that too! Still listening, and even more amazed. I find the performance very good!

*
Three Auden Songs: Ian Bostridge/Julius Drake*

Very nice!


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## Sid James

I recently was listening to the Naxos violin concertos cd. I agree, referring to that, with Hilltroll's comparison to Berg. & I've also got that EMI 2 disc set, oskaar, and I do aim to return to it at some stage soon. I remember it as quite good, I haven't listened to it in a while, I esp. remember enjoying the_ Barcarola _and the _Auden Songs_, which showcase Ian Bostridge's kind of clarity-focussed style very well...


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## Oskaar

Sinfonie Nr.9 Für Gem. Chor Und Orchester

Anyone else have some comments on this work? I found it exeptionally good!


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## Jeremy Marchant

One of the first LPs I acquired was of a young Christoph Eschenbach playing the second piano concerto under the composer's baton. (Superb DG cover illustration, by the way.) It seems to be available in an Eschenbach Brilliant Classics box set and is well worth acquiring. The last movement is a setting for piano and orchestra of Shakespeare's sonnet, "The expense of spirit in a waste of shame is lust in action.."

Also _Tristan_, for piano, tape and orchestra. I don't think this was ever reissued on CD.

To get a good grip on Henze it is well worth getting to know the works of the fifties and sixties and then expanding forwards. In this time he merged German rigour with the sundrenched tones of Italy where he had taken up residence. In addition to the works mentioned above, you need to listen to the first five symphonies, the violin concerto, _Ondine _(wonderful), _Ode to the west wind_, the opera_ Koenig Hirsch_ (never recorded, but some of its music became the fourth symphony), and the oboe and harp concerto amonst others.

Coming forward a decade, _The raft of the frigate Medusa_ is essential, the sixth symphony, _Voices_, _Essay on pigs_. Get these under your belt if you can.


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## Oskaar

Look as you have reached the meeting now, Jeremy!

And thanks for the advices.


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## hespdelk

I've explored his symphonies at different times. Personally I break these into two groups, his "early" ones, numbers 1 to 6, and the late ones, 7 to 10 - so far.

I never cared much for the first 6 symphonies (the old DG set).. (though I'm due for a reassessment, its been some years since I heard them), but Henze's late symphonic flowering is powerful deep music, not easily approachable, but significant. Some of the most important symphonies of the last 30 years in my view, up there with those of Penderecki and Schnittke's last three.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Henze! I love Henze! I was born on his birthday funnily enough. I'm playing his "Drei Tentos" on guitar at the moment.


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## Jeremy Marchant

hespdelk said:


> I never cared much for the first 6 symphonies (the old DG set).. (though I'm due for a reassessment, its been some years since I heard them), but Henze's late symphonic flowering is powerful deep music, not easily approachable, but significant.


In fact, the "old DG set" was originally on vinyl and was of 1-5 (6 hadn't been written).
I do think the first five form a little cycle, but 6 is something else, more akin to the non-symphonic music he was writing at the time.

Don't underestimate the earlier symphonies for the sheer pleasure they give. The brooding second, balletic third (with more than a nod to Stravinsky) and the fourth which I find extraodinarily evocative and poignant.


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## Oskaar

Peter Ruzicka, NDR Symphony Orchestra (Hamburg) and NDR Orchestra




http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Werner-H...9GLC/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1323293047&sr=8-6

Henze really impressed me, and I go for a new album!

*Ballet-Variationen*
Exciting work! Longing vague tones in one moment, and exploratory, and very interesting notes in the next. wonderful use of all the orchestra tools.

*Concertino, for piano, winds & percussion*
What a wonderful composer! A beautiful, kind of quiet work, at times. But also with great dramatic moments. 

*Das Vokaltuch der Kammersängerin Rosa Silber, ballet*
The delightful little moments. The performance here is absolutely brilliant. Great nerve. Very varied, and quite adventurous little work!
*
Kammerkonzert, for piano, flute & strings*
Not quite good sounding piano, but a great atmospheric work. The violin is amazing!

*Sinfonische Zwischenspiele*
Exciting work, but perhaps no favorite. Do not give me that much compared to other works by Henze. But it can absolutely grow.


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## Jeremy Marchant

I do know the earlier stuff better than the the music of the past twenty years - that is just a reflection of my lack of time to listen as much as anything. But this is delightful, however old it is: the attention to detail - fastidious yet always to the point and expressive with it - and his ear mark this out.

_Being beauteous_ (Rimbaud) for coloratura soprano (the wonderful Edda Moser), harp and 4 cellos. I mean, anyone else would have a string quartet (if only to encourage performances)...






And this, _The miracle of the rose_, which I was delighted to find (complete) on Youtube. I had only heard it twice before, in concerts by the wonderful London Sinfonietta. I took a friend, Therese, to the second concert and, turning to her after it was over, saw a single tear had run down her cheek...


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## Oskaar

I have an old computer, so i dont start up you tube links. It make my computer going mad.


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## hespdelk

Jeremy Marchant said:


> In fact, the "old DG set" was originally on vinyl and was of 1-5 (6 hadn't been written).
> I do think the first five form a little cycle, but 6 is something else, more akin to the non-symphonic music he was writing at the time.
> 
> Don't underestimate the earlier symphonies for the sheer pleasure they give. The brooding second, balletic third (with more than a nod to Stravinsky) and the fourth which I find extraodinarily evocative and poignant.


I heard the reissue on cd - if that was also only 1-5 as on the original LP then I may have never heard his 6th. This interests me as this symphony would come between his early and late cycles..

I shall reserve further comment on the early symphonies until I get a chance to hear them again, my previous assessment of them is nearly a decade old at this point, but I must say the impression the late works left on me was several orders of magnitude greater. My personal impression of course, though I'd also say that Henze reconceived what he wanted to do with the symphonic form in his later work.


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## Jeremy Marchant

hespdelk said:


> I heard the reissue on cd - if that was also only 1-5 as on the original LP then I may have never heard his 6th. This interests me as this symphony would come between his early and late cycles.


The LP set is 1-5; the CD set is 1-6. (I have both.)
6 does indeed sit between the first five and the last four. However it is not between 5 and 7 stylistically, it is somewhere else entirely, in the same way as _The tedious way _is radically different from the earlier _The raft of the frigate Medusa_ (say). There aren't any clips from these on Youtube but there are a lot of tantalising snippets on Amazon.

Incidentally, if you respond to Henze's symphonies, try the eight of Karl Amadeus Hartmann.


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## violadude

Jeremy Marchant said:


> The LP set is 1-5; the CD set is 1-6. (I have both.)
> 6 does indeed sit between the first five and the last four. However it is not between 5 and 7 stylistically, it is somewhere else entirely, in the same way as _The tedious way _is radically different from the earlier _The raft of the frigate Medusa_ (say). There aren't any clips from these on Youtube but there are a lot of tantalising snippets on Amazon.
> 
> Incidentally, if you respond to Henze's symphonies, try the eight of Karl Amadeus Hartmann.


I have Hartmann's symphonies too. Good connection made there. I definitely sense a bit of a similarity there and I love both cycles.


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## Jeremy Marchant

violadude said:


> I have Hartmann's symphonies too. Good connection made there. I definitely sense a bit of a similarity there and I love both cycles.


Well, Hartmann and Henze were both strongly influenced by Hindemith and Stravinsky. Hartmann also by Mahler (and he studied with Webern) and, while Henze can be Mahlerian in a generic sense, I feel that stream of influence is refracted through Berg.

Personally two things make me hugely prefer Henze to Hartmann (apart from the series of rather nice DG vinyl LPs that were issued when I was just getting into classical music):

1, Henze is essentially _*dramatic *_composer. I am not a lover of operas, even Henze's, but the drama just keeps showing up in all his music.

2, He is a _*lyrical *_composer: it is all (well since the fifties) suffused in an Italianate lyricism which transforms the Germanic earnestness his music might otherwise have (compare Hartmann) without losing the value of compositional rigour. The first movement of the second piano concerto is a vast palindrome (I can't see Nono writing something like that), while the last is a "setting" for piano and orchestra of a Shakespeare sonnet.


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## starthrower

oskaar said:


> Wonderful record!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/20th-Century-...XXU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323115429&sr=8-1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Barcarola City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra/Sir Simon Rattle*
> 
> Thrilling and adventurous. Very intensive, and sometime it seems that all instruments are highlighted at once! Loveley chaos. I dont find it difficult to listen too. So much is happening, and I find that exiting. Also a lot of moods and textures are exposed.
> 
> *Symphony No. 7 City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra/Sir Simon Rattle*
> 
> Great nerve, and it creates great images and moods. When I'm in the mood for this kind of music, it's definitely the music that gives me the most. I am an old prog-rock fan, and repeated adventures with such as Gentle Giant, makes me well trained to get more out of this music.
> 
> *Sinfonie Nr.9 Für Gem. Chor Und Orchester:	Berliner Philharmoniker/Rundfunkchor Berlin/Ingo Metzmacher*
> 
> I have not explored as much choral music yet, but there is no doubt that it is amazing when I listen to it. The work is fantastic! Very dramatic and exciting and full of highlights. "Bei the Toten" gives me goosebumps! It makes "die plates spricht" too. I think it's much easier to like choral music when there are so many variations that here, in relation to f.ex Bach where it gets too repetitive. But I'll probably get to the point where I like that too! Still listening, and even more amazed. I find the performance very good!
> 
> *
> Three Auden Songs: Ian Bostridge/Julius Drake*
> 
> Very nice!


Sounds good, Oskaar! I'll put it on the list!


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## NightHawk

Good morning! Your post has made me find my only recording of Henze - Seventh Symphony and Barcarola per Grande Orchetra, to which I am now listening. The recording is with Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham, so it is very good. Thanks for the recommendation of the Violin Concerto No. 1, now on my list. Do you recommend other of his symphonies (or anything, really)?



Sid James said:


> *Hans Werner Henze *(b.1926) is one of the most significant European composers of the C20th.
> 
> In 1944, at the age of seventeen, Henze was dragged out of music school and drafted into the German army. He was later captured and stayed in a British prisoner of war camp. After the war, he resumed his musical studies with Wolfgang Fortner and Rene Leibowitz. Following this he took up various directorships and advisorships, before leaving Germany to live in Italy in 1950. The reasons for this are clear: the heavy handed way homosexuals were treated in Germany by the police and courts, and the banning of the German Communist party, in which Henze was actively involved. He also didn't like the way his countrymen were dealing with the aftermath of the holocaust by putting their heads in the sand.
> 
> Henze is probably the most political composer of the C20th. His operas, in particular, are based on political ideas and stories. He has taken the expressionism of Hindemith, the modernism of Stravinsky, and the serialism of Schoenberg as starting points to build a unique style. He has written music in all genres, operas, ballets, symphonies, concertos, chamber music and vocal.
> 
> I have just acquainted myself with his Violin Concertos. His _Violin Concerto No. 1_ is one of the best I have heard for the instrument. Although it is influenced by the serialism of Berg's Concerto, it is a very passionate, intense and dark work. It is not academic or dry and sounds very mature for the work of a 21 year old. Indeed, the horrors he must have witnessed at a very young age during the war must have contributed greatly to this maturity.
> 
> I am interested in what other works people know by this remarkable composer.


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## starthrower

Symphonies 1-6 reissued by Brilliant Classics is a very affordable set I'd like to hear.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Brilliant+Classics/9194#listen

Also Volume 2 of Hartmann on EMI due out in January.
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/EMI/6784032


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## NightHawk

A description of his music I found = "always very political".



Sid James said:


> Well, _The Rough Guide to Classical Music _was actually praised by BBC music magazine for being "no idiot's guide." I think it is a useful book for a layperson like me, but if you want to get more academic, then by all means go to access specialist music journals, etc. I think that books like this are a good starting point for people interested in classical music.
> 
> Getting back to Henze, I've just re-listened to his_ Violin Concerto No. 1_ & it appears to me that there is somewhat of a struggle in it going on between the orchestra, which sounds rather brutal at times, and the soloist. The latter seems to shelter from the onslaught of sounds from the orchestra by going solo, playing short or longer cadenzas throughout each movement. It's like a solitary person's struggle against a nightmare, caught in the wilderness. This is particularly apparent in the final movement, which employs the rhythms found in Stravinsky's music.
> 
> If you asked me whether I liked Schoenberg's or Henze's _Violin Concerto _better, I would choose the latter. It seems more emotional and expressive. It is tied up with the composer's own mental and physical struggle as a young man who had experienced the horror of war.


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## Sid James

NightHawk said:


> Good morning! Your post has made me find my only recording of Henze - Seventh Symphony and Barcarola per Grande Orchetra, to which I am now listening. The recording is with Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham, so it is very good. Thanks for the recommendation of the Violin Concerto No. 1, now on my list. Do you recommend other of his symphonies (or anything, really)?


Hello Nighthawk.

Of Henze on disc, I've got that Naxos violin concertos disc as well as the EMI double disc set listened to above by Oskaar and posted by starthrower (with the same recording you've got - sym.#7, _Barcarola_, as well as sym.#9 & the _Three Auden Songs_).

I aim to give that set another listen, it's been a long time between drinks with that one.

As for the Naxos violin concertos disc, I am going to do a search for a recent "review" of it I did on current listening thread, and once I find it, I'll re-post it on this thread.

I'm by no means an expert on Henze but I'm glad people here are discussing him now, after so long a time of me putting up this thread ages ago...


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## Sid James

I can't find my review of the rest of the disc, but here is what I said a while back on *Henze's Violin Concerto #3 -*

...a relisten in ages of the *Henze* 3rd violin concerto, which I found more polished than the much earlier 1st VC on this disc, the 3rd has a filmic quality and also uses "exotic" instruments like castanets. The three movements are named for three characters in a Thomas Mann novel, but I don't care much about that, but it makes sense that it comes across as some kind of narrative playing out, it has a strong dramatic element for sure. Again, there are many cadenzas for the violinist, and many bursts of violence and colour from the orchestra...

*H.W. Henze*
_Violin Concerto #3_ (1997)
Peter Sheppard Skaerved, vln. / Saarbrucken Radio SO / Christopher Lyndon-Gee
(Naxos)


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## HarpsichordConcerto

I have a Henze ballet, _Ondine_ (sometimes spelt _Undine_). A beautiful production played by the Orchestra of the Royal Opera House under Barry Wordsworth. Much recommended.

As for Henze himself, he is quite a prolific composer, though I would like to hear more of his operas.


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## Sid James

...also now found the other review of* Henze's Violin Concerto #1 & Five Night Pieces *-

*H.W. Henze* (b. 1926)
_Violin Concerto #1_ (1946) *
_Funf Nachtstucke (Five Night Pieces) for violin & piano_ (1990) +
Peter Sheppard Skaerved, vln.
* with Saarbrucken Radio SO / Christopher Lyndon-Gee
+ with Aaron Sharr, pno.
(Naxos)

Henze's first concerto, written not long after the war in which he as a teenager was conscripted into the German army, is understandably a dark work. It's really a series of cadenzas for violin interlaced with orchestral bits, some quite brutal and violent. It makes me think of the individual versus society or the political system, etc. There are shades of Berg especially here, but also the rhythms reminiscent of Stravinsky in the final movement. Henze has said he is not entirely happy with this work, he saw it as kind of weak and not that good, but I think that on an emotional level at least, it does tell me his story and emotions at the time, and that's what really counts for me as a listener.

As for the accompanying _Five Night Pieces_, they are nocturnal in feel, the ending fifth movement, marked _Ode,_ is capped off by the violin soaring quite high, a bit like the ending of Messiaen's _Quartet for the End of Time_. There is also his 3rd concerto on this disc, which I aim to get to over the weekend. It's been a while since I've last listened to this disc, about a year, and my impressions of it is different now, the music seems more lyrical, even mellow, less outright angry and aggressive, etc...


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## HarpsichordConcerto

Reading a bit more on the operas of Henze, the following works have been recorded/released on DVD:-

_Der junge Lord_ (1964)
_Boulevard Solitude_ (1952)
_Der Prinz von Homburg _(1958)
_L'Upupa und der Triumph der Sohnesliebe_ (2003)


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## starthrower

Listening to violin concerto no. 2 on YouTube. Whoa, this is a strange and interesting work!






This piece here is just downright beautiful!


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## Sid James

A BBC interview HERE with Henze on his eightieth birthday a few years ago. Incl. audio of the interview as well as a list of his works they played during the broadcast. I hope to get back to this later given time myself, it looks interesting...


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## Jeremy Marchant

Sid James said:


> A BBC interview HERE with Henze on his eightieth birthday a few years ago. Incl. audio of the interview as well as a list of his works they played during the broadcast. I hope to get back to this later given time myself, it looks interesting...


Thanks for this. I look forward to enjoying it soon.


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## Jeremy Marchant

Henze's *concerto for oboe, harp and strings* (1966) is delightful - typically poignant, and one of Henze's most approachable work for those who are a bit diffident. Mercifully, this performance is complete.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I'm learning these pieces by Henze at the moment.


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## NightHawk

I have en route now Henze symphonies 3, 4, & 5 - will acquire others later...the cc balance shocked the everlovin' **** outta me  sorry - bathroom humor


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## NightHawk

Very fine works - Henze is new territory I'm glad to say. thanks.



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I'm learning these pieces by Henze at the moment.


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## NightHawk

First off: the Violin Concerto #2 - Have Mercy! A fantastic and freaking complex work! The 'tribal drumming' for lack of a better description is such a great sound within the orchestra. This is a piece to hear and see live, no doubt about it.

Secondly: I recognized the beautiful face before I played the clip, though I couldn't place it... until the title came up - I own the German movie 'The Lost Honor of Katarina Blum' on DVD - have watched it at least once, maybe twice a few years ago, didn't remember that Henze had written the sound track and certainly did not know he had arranged (beautifully) this suite/concerto from the film music. The film is very good, though grindingly depressing re the innocent woman who is virtually destroyed by the media, the police and the public.



starthrower said:


> Listening to violin concerto no. 2 on YouTube. Whoa, this is a strange and interesting work!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This piece here is just downright beautiful!


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## science

Has _We Come to the River_ ever been recorded?


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## elgar's ghost

Doesn't look like it, Science. Neither has _König Hirsch (King Stag)_ - regarded by some as Henze's most ambitious opera.

The only Henze opera I have a recording of is _The English Cat_ (libretto in English by Edward Bond after the story by Honoré de Balzac) - it's a bittersweet tale featuring anthropomorphic cats (and a mouse) and well worth investigating. The musical forces are often used sparingly and, especially in the cases of the more unconventional instruments (small pipe organ, various percussion etc.), imaginatively.


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## Richannes Wrahms

Meh. .


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## elgar's ghost

Hmm...can't say I've come across that one.


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## science

elgars ghost said:


> Doesn't look like it, Science. Neither has _König Hirsch (King Stag)_ - regarded by some as Henze's most ambitious opera.
> 
> The only Henze opera I have a recording of is _The English Cat_ (libretto in English by Edward Bond after the story by Honoré de Balzac) - it's a bittersweet tale featuring anthropomorphic cats (and a mouse) and well worth investigating. The musical forces are often used sparingly and, especially in the cases of the more unconventional instruments (small pipe organ, various percussion etc.), imaginatively.


That sounds like a lot of fun!


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## elgar's ghost

^
^

There's a recording on Wergo - I'm guessing it can be sampled somehow if you look around.


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## Guest

I like most of the works already mentioned plus his Piano Concerto No.2, the String Quartets, and "The Royal Winter Music," a pair of sonatas commissioned by guitarist Julian Bream. He requested a "Hammerklavier" Sonata for the guitar! We guitarists should be eternally grateful to Henze for writing such a massive, complex piece--at least those who are comfortable with his harmonic language and the ferocious technical demands it makes. In fact, Bream declared the Second Sonata to be unplayable, and recorded only the first one. Since then, though, a few brave souls have played and recorded both.


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## Pugg

Kontrapunctus said:


> I like most of the works already mentioned plus his Piano Concerto No.2, the String Quartets, and "The Royal Winter Music," a pair of sonatas commissioned by guitarist Julian Bream. He requested a "Hammerklavier" Sonata for the guitar! We guitarists should be eternally grateful to Henze for writing such a massive, complex piece--at least those who are comfortable with his harmonic language and the ferocious technical demands it makes. In fact, Bream declared the Second Sonata to be unplayable, and recorded only the first one. Since then, though, a few brave souls have played and recorded both.


Someone got me the symphonies once, http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4498612
But they are way out of my league.


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## Guest

Pugg said:


> Someone got me the symphonies once, http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4498612
> But they are way out of my league.


You might sample the 7th--it's very dark but a little more melodic than some of his other Symphonies.


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## paulbest

Pugg said:


> Someone got me the symphonies once, http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/DG/4498612
> But they are way out of my league.


One of my main reasons for joining this classical chat board, as its been some 12++ yrs since I last posted on CMG/GMG. is in order to bring out my personal opinions on the music of Hans Henze.

Just straight up, Henze (IMHO) is germany's greatest late 20TH C composer, and further , one of the greatest Germanic composers in its history, right there with Richard Wagner, Karl Hartmann. 
Further his status, his creations stand next to Schnittke, Pettersson, Elliott Carter. as the 4 greatest mid/LATE 20TH modern composers. 
I recall back in 2004/5, many chat friends did their best to convince me of his genius, so I bought some cds, but alas, it was way too soon. I needed more time to mature and expand my musical mind, broaden my psyche. ,,,and so now, some 16 yrs later, as just past month, I have ordered nearly his entire oeuvre. And may I say, have yet to find a *dud*, weak spot, gimmick, fillers, fluff, boredom, soso-ness, nor anything minimalist wanderings,/wasteland emptiness, , nor ultra modern-nonsense(which has infected quite a few post modernists), nor any new age classical affectations. 
All Henze, as far as I can tell, is gold, bonafide musical genius, sparkling, mesmerizing, ethereal dreaminess, , creations which stand alone, with only rare glimpses of outside influences. The significance of Henze importance in modern music , stands next to the master works of Schnittke, Pettersson, Elliott Carter, all fall into this similar level of high musical genius. Yet involves the listener to a level of engagement which makes it challenging for new comers, who still have yet to experience the 3 great 2nd Viennese masters. I just don't think its possible to approach Henze, w/o knowing the 3 great 2nd Viennese , first.

I believe I came to Schoenberg 1st, then his 2 great companions Berg, Webern, at which point the door to Elliott Carter opened.

For me Henze is very different from all other composers, same as Schnittke is unique and as Pettersson is individual, comparable to none. 
Paul
The Henzeian
New Orleans


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## paulbest

Herzeleide said:


> Bit of an overstatement, non?


 No actually Henze is no less equal to Schnittke, Pettersson Elliott Carter.
Surely germany's greatest composer late 20th C composer, superior to Karl Hartmann. The only other more significant german composer in history is Wagner. So Henze ranks 2nd , and one of the great late 20C composers world wide.
Paul
The Henzeian
New Orleans


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## starthrower

Why is Henze superior to Hartmann? I have many recordings by both composers. Neither were groundbreaking innovators, but both composed fine symphonies, string quartets, and operas. I tend to favor Hartmann's symphonies. His quartets are very fine too. As far as world wide late 20th century leading composers are concerned, I don't see Henze as being in the same league as Ligeti, Penderecki, or Takemitsu.


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## joen_cph

As regards variety in expression, Henze probably has more. Besides a much bigger oeuvre.


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## paulbest

starthrower said:


> Why is Henze superior to Hartmann? I have many recordings by both composers. Neither were groundbreaking innovators, but both composed fine symphonies, string quartets, and operas. I tend to favor Hartmann's symphonies. His quartets are very fine too. As far as world wide late 20th century leading composers are concerned, I don't see Henze as being in the same league as Ligeti, Penderecki, or Takemitsu.


I do not expect many Henze fans here or elsewhere. This is not news to me, I've been around the classical chat forums off/on for years, I know what's popular/whats not. 
One of my main objectives in joining this chat forum is to try to thank all those CMGers back in 2004/05 who made vain attempts to get me to *get* Henze,,,I bought a few cds, then sold off weeks later as *incomprehensible* *too ultra modern* *not enough beautiful passages*,,,*nothing makes any sense/lacks cohesiveness* 
Now some 14 years later I finally matured and *get* Henze. Oh what a major revelation. Henze can only come, ONLY, via a Revelation, there is no other way to *get* Henze.,,,, Varese I got, then came Webern,,then the great Elliott Carter,,still Henze was a *mystery* * a hard nut to crack*.Finally I made inner changes, long longgg over due. The path way to Henze opened. 
I also like Hartmann, 2 very different composers. 
To *get* Henze, one must have something Henzeian within.


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## paulbest

joen_cph said:


> As regards variety in expression, Henze probably has more. Besides a much bigger oeuvre.


Yes, Henze possesses breath/depth/variations without end. But this last quality may be a the stumbling block for many who try to approach Henze. Some development around a core theme, like say in Pettersson, is lacking, almost completely missing.

Henze for me is also a voice of This Zeitgeist, like Pettersson, yet in a completely different way.
Pettersson is The Voice of The Suffering and much more, that descript could go on forever.

My guess, and its a far flung hunch at best, is that Henze was prodding, jabbing, chiding the entire EU/german/autrian classical eminent figure heads due to their stubbornness , disdain for new modern composers. The notes in the cds, mention how Henze had some serious conflicts with the musical establishment there in germany early on, so he packed up and went in repose to create in Italy, where his masterpieces were crafted.

As I say, I very well know Henze will not anytime soon make it a *top 10 list*. can't happen. Henze, moreso that schnittke, Pettersson, Carter is for a select few only, As far as I know, I am the only Henzeian around these parts.

My agenda has long been to promote the genius of Allan Pettersson 1st and foremost, then Schnittke's genius, as well a voice for Elliott Carter
t

Now my life encompasses the promotion of Henze, to *shout from the mountain tops*.

Honestly I completely forgot about my 2004/05 encounters with Henze. Then some months ago, I decided it was time to explore all major new modern composers, past 50+ years. 
I made a great discovery of Szymanowski. Huge revelation there.

I though Rims may be of interest, but no.
I came across Henze on YT,,cked out many of his works,,and was puzzled for weeks...I am a Revelain, as you know Henze and Ravel and Henze are light years apart. 
completely separated galaxies. 
I would suggest to any interested in Henze, not to order any cds. Only ck out YT, until you feel the interest to go further.
I am near completing my Henze collection. 
As I say, the mahlerians/Brucknerians, are puzzled about my love for Henze, as I am puzzled about their fan-aticism for either composer. 
Henze is germany's greatest composer past 100+ years. As well one of the worlds greatest 20Th C composers, inferior to none. 
Paul
The Henzeian
New orleans


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## Phil loves classical

Henze was not a great innovator, but I think that works to his credit. His music is much more listenable than Babbitt and contemporary composers to me. He is not afraid to write in a more conservative high Modern style like Schnittke, Shostakovich and Arnold, and to me more obviously talented than composers who I feel hid behind daringness and opacity.


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## paulbest

Phil loves classical said:


> Henze was not a great innovator, but I think that works to his credit. His music is much more listenable than Babbitt and contemporary composers to me. He is not afraid to write in a more conservative high Modern style like Schnittke, Shostakovich and Arnold, and to me more obviously talented than composers who I feel hid behind daringness and opacity.


Excellent post, keen observation. Obviously my complete lack of musical training, prevents me from expressing these same enlightening commentary. 
Innovations, say as in Wagner, Debussy, Schoenberg, Varese, Schnittke? 
Yes, this is true.
So if we can eliminate just the one word *great* from your opening comments, then we have Henze did strike out on his own, yet I am wondering, how much was Henze influenced by his co-patriot, karl Hartmann, who also offers excellent new musical forms/ideas? Also what influence did Schnittke have on Henze, or Henze on Schnittke. 
Both are unique, original, and avoid all mannerisms which often lead to the following defects in compositions :Fluff, Fillers, Gimmicks. 
I know quite a few popular modern composers who works suffer from these debilities , yet got away with it. Henze had much to say about these snake oil salesmen, pawning themselves off as *classical composers*.

Henze made sure he delivered the *real goods*, Proof of this, is the fact I've yet to come across a *dud* in any of his works,,except his 1st sym, which even he called *the dud*. All other 2-10 are clear winners. How often can this be said about any symphonic composer, (2 exceptions are Schnittke and Pettersson both also has nearly all winners in their symphonic out put).

Henze is not easy to define. As Schnittke calls his style polystylism, I would consider employing the term *poly-eclecticism* for Henze.

Your last part, Hid behind darningness and opacity*..
Might this apply to,,lets see who comes to mind,,perhaps you mean Stockhausen and many others of his ultra modern, post modern high tech style.

Stockhausen has one work which involves 3 separate chamber orchestras with 3 conductors. I mean really. There are so many ultra/post modern composers who I have demoted to new age classical, a camp in which I have no interest at all. 
Henze is not part of that group, he is completely separate. 
I have no favorites right now in Henze, its hard for me to rate his works, I love them all equally right now, in my early experiences of this profound , eloquent, composer. Will take years to digest his works. 
Last I will readily admit, his works appear pasted together, as if whatever came to his mind, he wrote down. The Henze challenge is my most difficult of any composer. So I can understand why he is being overlooked, today and no doubt for some time to come. 
He is far ahead of his time.


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## starthrower

Not all of Schnittke's work is poly-stylistic. It's a mistake to slap that label on him. I'm not sure what pieces by Henze are considered his masterworks? I still haven't got hold of the string quartet recordings on Wergo. It was just too expensive being out of print. I suppose one of my preferred pieces is his instrumental requiem released on Sony. It's a live recording and last time I checked the filmed performance was on YouTube.


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## starthrower

I enjoy this Brilliant Classics re-issue. I seem to connect with these works more than his last four.


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## starthrower

paulbest said:


> To *get* Henze, one must have something Henzeian within.


And what exactly is that? I would say fans of certain composers are sympathetic to, or moved by that composer's voice, culture, or other characteristics intrinsic to the music. I'm not sure if I hear a "Henzian" voice coming through his music? He's a talented craftsman like Stravinsky, but not as great an artist as the Russian giant. I don't feel any real conviction or emotional depth when listening to Henze. It's nothing like listening to Schnittke. Henze reminds me more of Martinu. A talented craftsman. And maybe that's the way it's supposed to be? Similar to Boulez, but tonal instead of serial.


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## paulbest

Great insights. 
What I mean by *Henzeian* is that one is open to his ideas that music can be much more than something other than say,,a Beethoven sym..I never in 35 yrs have felt any regards for Beethoen, Sure I had the VC with Oistrakh, and the Bruno Walter/Columbia set , other LP's/CDs of Beethoven, but those are all gone now, same for Brahms, I've even grown out of all Sibelius, except his finest work, The Kullervo and a few tone poems.
Hard to explain Henze, he has chords that are dreamy/other worldly, timeless. This is what I love about Henze, full of surprises and thrills. Never,,or lets say, rarely fluff nor boedom, As for Stravinsky, I never was drawn to his music, as popular as he is. 
So as you say its all about personal temperament. 

It is a possibility that Henze's day may come in the distant future , it will be up to other generations to decide which composers are offering *the real goods*, and which have been propagandized past 200 years.
I know a bit of Martinu,,and yes Schnittke is indeed a high genius, most are masterworks. 
Paul
The Henzeian


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## Guest

He's one of my favorite 20th century composers. Even at his thorniest, there's always a hint of melody and purpose--rarely does he sound like he's just randomly tossing in notes. We guitarists are very grateful for his mammoth "The Royal Winter Music." Julian Bream, who commissioned it, requested a guitar piece as epic as Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" Piano Sonata.


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## Portamento

It reminds me of something Denisov (yet another notable Russian composer) said in an interview: "There are some composers who really don't put anything of themselves into their pieces. Varèse, Roussel and Xenakis are composers whom I admire, but I don't hear anything personal coming from inside them in that music. It's very objective music. We get closer in the music of Schubert, for instance, because all of Schubert is like a page out of his life; you can hear it as a page out of his diary. Tchaikovsky's _6th Symphony_ is also a work that is straight out of his life, and many of the symphonies of Shostakovich are like that."

I believe Henze belongs somewhere in the middle of these two extremes.


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## flamencosketches

Kontrapunctus said:


> He's one of my favorite 20th century composers. Even at his thorniest, there's always a hint of melody and purpose--rarely does he sound like he's just randomly tossing in notes. We guitarists are very grateful for his mammoth "The Royal Winter Music." Julian Bream, who commissioned it, requested a guitar piece as epic as Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" Piano Sonata.


I'm listening to this now, a guitarist myself (though not much of a classical player) your description sounds really interesting. This is some bizarre music. I understand this is high modernism, late 20th C., and it's not far off from what I would expected. Reminds me of Elliott Carter, which probably goes to show how little I know about this era in music.

I'm curious though, what musical traits would we use to describe his music? Is it atonal, polytonal, microtonal? Dodecaphonic? Surely not serial...? To me, it's all just dissonant "noise", though I am piece by piece starting to crack into the mysteries of the more arcane side of 20th century music... I have become a huge fan recently of Webern for instance, starting to enjoy Ligeti, etc. But a lot of this later 20th C., high Modern stuff still leaves me cold. I hope to return to his music in the future as did our new member Paul with a newfound appreciation; I still have a lot of life ahead of me and I'm not gonna "get" everything on the first try.


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## Guest

flamencosketches said:


> I'm listening to this now, a guitarist myself (though not much of a classical player) your description sounds really interesting. This is some bizarre music. I understand this is high modernism, late 20th C., and it's not far off from what I would expected. Reminds me of Elliott Carter, which probably goes to show how little I know about this era in music.
> 
> I'm curious though, what musical traits would we use to describe his music? Is it atonal, polytonal, microtonal? Dodecaphonic? Surely not serial...? To me, it's all just dissonant "noise", though I am piece by piece starting to crack into the mysteries of the more arcane side of 20th century music... I have become a huge fan recently of Webern for instance, starting to enjoy Ligeti, etc. But a lot of this later 20th C., high Modern stuff still leaves me cold. I hope to return to his music in the future as did our new member Paul with a newfound appreciation; I still have a lot of life ahead of me and I'm not gonna "get" everything on the first try.


"The Royal Winter Music" is fiercely difficult to play, too! In fact Julian Bream declared "Mad Lady Macbeth" to be unplayable at the time, so he never recorded the the 3-movement Second Sonata, only the 6-movement First Sonata. Younger players have since been able to come to grips with its demands.

To answer your question "Is it atonal, polytonal, microtonal? Dodecaphonic? Surely not serial...?" The answer is yes!  He uses whatever style/technique necessary to get his ideas across. Some of his earlier works are indeed Dodecaphonic/serial. He really can't be labeled, which is one element that attracts me to his music.


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## paulbest

Kontrapunctus said:


> He's one of my favorite 20th century composers. Even at his thorniest, there's always a hint of melody and purpose--rarely does he sound like he's just randomly tossing in notes. We guitarists are very grateful for his mammoth "The Royal Winter Music." Julian Bream, who commissioned it, requested a guitar piece as epic as Beethoven's "Hammerklavier" Piano Sonata.


Nice post. I have no musical training, so his music, all music I can only absorb via strict listening experience, w/o any understanding of the *mechanics* , so all the tech aspects just do not register. Hezze is very different from say Shostakovich, Bartok, RVW. I would say Henze has taken Varese to a whole new level, as did Carter with varese. Also Henze may have been influenced by Karl Hartmann, and taken his ideas to a deeper level. Like Schnittke, Henze is a stand alone composer. Yet I would say Henze and Elliott Carter are like brothers in composition , say , as were Debussy and Ravel. Similar yet different.
Henze does not have a big following, my belief his day in the sun is yet to come. He is not a easy composer to *get*. His music is very rewarding, almost mystical at times.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> I'm listening to this now, a guitarist myself (though not much of a classical player) your description sounds really interesting. This is some bizarre music. I understand this is high modernism, late 20th C., and it's not far off from what I would expected. Reminds me of Elliott Carter, which probably goes to show how little I know about this era in music.
> 
> I'm curious though, what musical traits would we use to describe his music? Is it atonal, polytonal, microtonal? Dodecaphonic? Surely not serial...? To me, it's all just dissonant "noise", though I am piece by piece starting to crack into the mysteries of the more arcane side of 20th century music... I have become a huge fan recently of Webern for instance, starting to enjoy Ligeti, etc. But a lot of this later 20th C., high Modern stuff still leaves me cold. I hope to return to his music in the future as did our new member Paul with a newfound appreciation; I still have a lot of life ahead of me and I'm not gonna "get" everything on the first try.


I was writing my post above, just as you posted your insightful post
Yes I also mentioned above your hunch about a connection nwith Elliott carter. I see both as kin, as were Debussy and Ravel.
As Elliott Carter was Americas greatest composer, as is Henze to germany, 20th, their finest composer.
And yes, how can we define Henze? 
Which is why it took me some 14 yrs to finally *get* Henze. A few GMGers back in 2004/05 made strong recommends that I seek out some Henze. I ordered a few cds, soon sold off as *unintelligible* randomly stitched together ideas. Henze is saying a lot in his music. I think in all of his works, he at least takes some moments to strike back at the german musical establishment which gave him some troubles early on. I think his music smashes any and all icons in germany, as they listen on in horror and gasps of pain and bewilderment. But then the german conductors realized his genius and brought in performances. 
Henze , like Webern, is always something new at every listening. Offering a lifetime of new discoveries within his *mystical* compositions. 
I am definitely Henzeian.


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## paulbest

Who has ever composed for guitar as has Henze?
Brings out the fullness of the instrument, dazzles, mesmerizes the senses. . Henze has no *duds* (exception his 1st sym, which he readily acknowledged early on)


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Who has ever composed for guitar as has Henze?
> Brings out the fullness of the instrument, dazzles, mesmerizes the senses. . Henze has no *duds* (exception his 1st sym, which he readily acknowledged early on)


What I like about the RWM is that he didn't write "guitar" music necessarily: he just wrote what he heard in his head and left it to Julian Bream to make it work. That way, he avoided cliches and easy/typical guitar patterns. I recall Bream saying that aside from "Mad Lady Macbeth," he didn't have to request too many changes. I think there were a few unplayable chords in the First Sonata, and Henze agreed to the changes. One, though, he was adamant about keeping. Bream complained that it was very unidiomatic, but Henze basically said, "That's your problem!"


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## flamencosketches

^I liked that piece quite a bit more than the other Henze sonata for guitar that I listened to, "Royal Winter Music". It was surprisingly easy to follow, with a lot of obvious "musicality" to it.


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## paulbest

Here is Henze's 1972 *violin concerto*. Its more like a chamber concerto with violin, voice, piano, (tape?)
UNREAL.
I've come a long way from my early Rachmaininov /Sibelius days, back in 1982-1990. Back then , this concerto would have received a bad review on my amazon page. I wonder if Henze had heard some hard rock back then and figured he could match and out psychedelic what Hendrix/King Crimson/Cream was doing (on drugs)?


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## starthrower

I listened to that recording of the 2nd violin concerto 7 or 8 years ago and commented on it favorably in this thread. I bought a different recording on the MD&G label but I didn't connect with it for some reason. 

Right now I'm listening to the Modern Times CD featuring the 8th symphony, and two other works. I enjoy this disc quite a bit. The first piece on the CD is an instrumental suite arranged from Henze's opera Die Bassariden which was commissioned by Christoph von Dohnanyi.


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## paulbest

MD&G has some great offerings, others iffy. I am a completist, and so may have ordered that cd, thanks for the comment, I will order the other alternative. I will go back through this thread later tonight.
I also have the work you mention of the suite based on his great opera Die Bassariden. Adagio,Fuge,und Manadentanz/Markus Stenz Koln Orch, also has Nachtsucke und Arien with Claudia Barainsky soprano and alos his great symphony 8, this is on the Capricio label, also offer on another release.
all 3 works are as usual with all Henze, spectacular masterpieces.

I know someone who like me, sharesa profound appreciation and deep life long devotion to the music of Allan Pettersson, yet he confesses, he can not connect at all with Henze. 

He always brings up the latin phrase *to each his own*.


I think we have the same performance on the pieces mentioned. 
I only came into Henze, about 3 weeks ago, really blown away by his masterworks, all of them.


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## paulbest

Here is a link to a great *bootleg* opera cd site,which offers some rare Henze operas.
There is another opera web site as well offering rare opera cds, which I will try to locate But I think both offer about the same listings.
I looked for this performance on cd at amazon , can't find it, So here it is offered on House of opera, I've ordered 2 performances of Pettersson's 7th and various other cds (Henze Bassarides etc) and all are exceptional quality, not inferior to DG etc.
The clips offered sound aweful, but that's only the clip quality, not the actual cd.





http://search.store.yahoo.net/yhst-...done=http://www.operapassion.com/cd88391.html


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## Guest

One of my favorite pieces by Henze is the Piano Concerto No.2. I guess a 50+ minute 12 tone concerto is a tough listen for most people, so it never really caught one. He wrote it for Christoph Eschenbach. Unfortunately, the only video I can find divides it into 4 parts. Here's the slow first movement (the other 3 should be there, too.)


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## paulbest

Here is the other opera web, Premiere Opera, these 2 sites may be connected.
Orders come fast,. Really nice gems on both sites.

https://www.premiereoperaintl.com/search.aspx?find=henze


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## paulbest

This 2nd pc with Eschenbach is exceptional. I just received the CPO release
Rolf Plagge/Gerhard Markson/Nordwestdeutsche Phil/Recorded Feb 13-17, 1995, released 2000.
I crique recordings in all my fav composer, With Henze, I have noticed it is redundant, and futile to attempt this exercise.
With Schnittke, Pettersson and Henze, multiples are required. Each performance will reflect a slightly dif shade of experience.
Like light hitting a leaded crystal prism


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## paulbest

I really think I may have struck the image which has me so impressed about all Henze's works. Unless you have another to offer?

Recall the raly days of computer stores, where the comp screens had these programs that would reflect in colors splashing all over the screen like exploding dwarf stars,,I would love to have that program hooked up to Henze's music. UNREAl, Super Unreal. 

Like the worlds biggest fireworks, STUNNING it would be.
I will try to find how I get hold of that download,, it will help me to connect to Henze even further, via colorations.


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## Guest

His String Quartets are excellent, too.


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## paulbest

Kontrapunctus said:


> His String Quartets are excellent, too.


Thanks for the mention, somehow I would eventually get around to the SQ's, but glad you posted this SQ set. amazon has 1 set at $35+ ship, I do not order from that german seller, I prefer US sellers. Looks like I will have to fork out an extra $11 for that gem.
Reading through the amazon reviews, seems the 4th/5th are the highlights of the 5. 
But I am hearing the 3rd as a supreme masterpiece.
This 3rd sure has strong connections with Schoenberg, but surpasses Schoenberg's 6 SQ.s

And that's just the 3rd, 
Unreal


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Thanks for the mention, somehow I would eventually get around to the SQ's, but glad you posted this SQ set. amazon has 1 set at $35+ ship, I do not order from that german seller, I prefer US sellers. Looks like I will have to fork out an extra $11 for that gem.


A US seller has it on Discogs for $24.99 + shipping--grab it! https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/1840607?ev=rb


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## paulbest

Kontrapunctus said:


> A US seller has it on Discogs for $24.99 + shipping--grab it! https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/1840607?ev=rb


 ahhh too late, when I see something I know is essential/must have..i do not wait,,,I grab it...just paid the $42+ ship froma Nebraska seller off amazon...I have seen the site you posted, but never knew what it was all about.
I will certainly ck that site before next purcashes.
Even though I could had a better bargain, these SQ's , for me (though only heard bits of the 3rd) will be priceless = can't placea monetary value on the Ardetti set. 
I'd pay over $100+ if it was the last set.
I am a completist in composers I love.


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## Flutter

paulbest said:


> I really think I may have struck the image which has me so impressed about all Henze's works. Unless you have another to offer?
> 
> Recall the raly days of computer stores, where the comp screens had these programs that would reflect in colors splashing all over the screen like exploding dwarf stars,,I would love to have that program hooked up to Henze's music. UNREAl, Super Unreal.
> 
> Like the worlds biggest fireworks, STUNNING it would be.
> I will try to find how I get hold of that download,, it will help me to connect to Henze even further, via colorations.


I completely agree, his work is really stunning.


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## paulbest

Flutter said:


> I completely agree, his work is really stunning.


Lets say we had nearly every major composer's music set up to the comp program I am referring to, as the music plays, the comp displays / translates the sound into color exploding images, intricate patterns. 
My guess is that Henze would carry the day of all/every composer. 
Sure Elliott Carter would also have spectacular imagery. Along with a few others. 
But at the end of the day, the crowds would be gathered largest around the Hans Henze 100 inch display screen...
*like wow, who is this composer?,,,never heard of him...like UNREAL...*.
and such comments.

Henze would carry the most *WOWS*.

Follow?
So this is why I love Henze so much, he offers dynamics, surprises, mesmerizing imagery, awakens the exploration of inner space, and also hols great healing power to break old personality patterns and give birth to a new perspective of ones life in this world.
So Henze is a bit of a shaman. Muisc transforms that which was dying within us. 
We will carry only a few things with us into the next life. Books, music are 2 of these experiences. 
My cd collection and massive tube stereo will remain, the spiritual content of the music will come with me through the tunnel of light.


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## flamencosketches

Discogs is a great site. Any music collector should be acquainted with it. Often you will find much better deals on used CDs than you will on Amazon, sometimes you will see stuff that isn't on Amazon at all. I would definitely look into it.


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## starthrower

flamencosketches said:


> Discogs is a great site. Any music collector should be acquainted with it. Often you will find much better deals on used CDs than you will on Amazon, sometimes you will see stuff that isn't on Amazon at all. I would definitely look into it.


Yeah, discogs is a great alternative to the behemoth Amazon. And they list all the different editions of a particular recording. Amazon is a joke compared to discogs.


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## paulbest

starthrower said:


> Yeah, discogs is a great alternative to the behemoth Amazon. And they list all the different editions of a particular recording. Amazon is a joke compared to discogs.


wish I had known of discogs years ago. I spent top $ for many rare recordings, Like Koran's recording of DSCH, 1968, paid $50 last month. + . many others I may have saved on discogs. . 
I will ck it out.
Thanks


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## flamencosketches

You're not always gonna beat Amazon prices there, but it's always worth having a cross reference.


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> You're not always gonna beat Amazon prices there, but it's always worth having a cross reference.


Yes I always ck/compare ebay with amazon. Sometimes you can find bargains at ebay, Like the DSCH/Rozh/Meloydia set,,I am waiting for the Schoenberg SQ /Chandos set in the all Schoenberg chamber works, at a good price to pop up, say under $40. 
No one is selling that set,,= price remains at $60.
I picked up this cd a few months ago ona bid offer, no one else bidded. 
I got it.
If you think $400 is outrageous, The Japan offering is $1000

https://www.amazon.com/Giants-Violin-Jean-Sibelius/dp/B000024XNR


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## Guest

Henze's Guitar Concerto, "Ode an Eine Äolsharfe," is quite a nice piece. He wrote it for a friend of mine, David Tannenbaum, who recorded it for Ars Musica. Discogs has it: https://www.discogs.com/Hans-Werner...cle-De-La-Rose-An-Eine-Äolsha/release/8860018


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## paulbest

Well its listed on Geramny's site, he reduced the rare cd to $757
Discogs has it at $399, same seller as amazon
But indeed a great site for rareities

The Kogan recording on that cd is excellent, but honestly, in comparison, Oistrakh's recording, with Rozh/Philharmonia/BBC legends is superior. 
WOW look, there is a bunch of low priced copies on am/UK
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shostakovich-Violin-Concertos-Amitié-Violins/dp/B000056QEK


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Well its listed on Geramny's site, he reduced the rare cd to $757
> Discogs has it at $399, same seller as amazon
> But indeed a great site for rareities


To which recording are you referring? The Guitar Concerto? It's $19.99 on Discogs!


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## paulbest

Kontrapunctus said:


> To which recording are you referring? The Guitar Concerto? It's $19.99 on Discogs!


Hi
In reference to the DSCH VC 1 with Kogan.
I will ck out the listing of the Henze concerto. Probably order today.
Odd that Henze does not have a huge fan base, such as Beethoven had over the decades. Like from all orchestras, those who know what a great composition truly is and which Henze offers in super abundance.

I mean Henze should be the rave among orchestra members here in the USA. 
Are orchestras not sick and tired of the same old programming of the old standards? 
Beethoven's 5th, how often do we really need to hear it? I can speed hum it start to finish in 5 minutes or less. 
You can't hum any of Henze.


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## paulbest

Kontrapunctus said:


> Henze's Guitar Concerto, "Ode an Eine Äolsharfe," is quite a nice piece. He wrote it for a friend of mine, David Tannenbaum, who recorded it for Ars Musica. Discogs has it: https://www.discogs.com/Hans-Werner...cle-De-La-Rose-An-Eine-Äolsha/release/8860018


Unreal, Henze just blows me away. 
The folks over at CMG 2004/05 did their veery best to convince me of his genius,,I was just breaking out of Sibelius , Rachmaninov, and coming into Schnittke/Pettersson/Carter. But could not *get* Henze.


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## 13hm13

Thx for the info on the PC#2. 
I went thru my hard-drive playlist and found quite stash of Henze CDs* I ripped over the past seven years. But I do not have any of his PC's.

* CDs are in storage. One sucky aspect of ripping to computer is that you forget your inventory. I may have re-bought a few titles had I not found that hard-drive playlist!


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## paulbest

had Schnittke heard every Henze score in concert, during say a 1 month period, with various orchestras/soloists, chambers...How would Schnittke reacted to this incredible music? 
Then at the same time period, Henze had front row seat to all Schnittke's works? How would Henze reacted? 
And the cordial meeting afterwards?
Now that would have been one long deep conversation. 
Two great modern music masters discussing each ones master works
Unreal.

Not even 8 minutes and its a mind blower. 
EIGHT MINUTE MASTERPIECE..!!??!!??






yeah I know I posted above this vid,,,but seems no one *got* it.
So worth a second posting


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## paulbest

13hm13 said:


> Thx for the info on the PC#2.
> I went thru my hard-drive playlist and found quite stash of Henze CDs* I ripped over the past seven years. But I do not have any of his PC's.
> 
> * CDs are in storage. One sucky aspect of ripping to computer is that you forget your inventory. I may have re-bought a few titles had I not found that hard-drive playlist!


Like finding a treasure chest of some pirate's stash, stolen goods, but alas to be enjoyed...
At that time of ripping, you figured, maybe one day Henze will become a fav of mine.
Very smart, now you can enjoy the fruits of your labor, w/o having to buy cds. 
Nice work.
Ripping will not work for me, as I have a tube stereo system, all high tech tubes, so I would be afraid the Cayin tube CD player might catch a virus with rippings. can't take the chance, can't be replaced. Its a very rare cd player. 
The only other quality tube player is the Jadis, at $12K


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## Guest

paulbest said:


> Hi
> In reference to the DSCH VC 1 with Kogan.


Ah. That's the problem with pronouns that don't have an antecedent. (Sorry: the English teacher in me temporarily escaped.)


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## 13hm13

Anyone have this collection (released 2013) ...









HANS WERNER HENZE
The Complete 
Deutsche Grammophon Recordings
Int. Release 05 Aug. 2013
16 CDs / download
0289 479 1522 5 
ADD / DDD GM16
https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4791522

I own some of these on earlier CD releases. But for newer fans of the composer, not a bad introduction.


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## Bwv 1080

Kontrapunctus said:


> Henze's Guitar Concerto, "Ode an Eine Äolsharfe," is quite a nice piece. He wrote it for a friend of mine, David Tannenbaum, who recorded it for Ars Musica. Discogs has it: https://www.discogs.com/Hans-Werner...cle-De-La-Rose-An-Eine-Äolsha/release/8860018


Also a Naxos recording of the piece with Frank Halasz

https://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=8.557345


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## starthrower

A piece I discovered several years ago. I have no idea if a recording is in print or available?


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## flamencosketches

Henze-mania lately... I can feel this composer's presence in the Zeitgeist of our times (or of our forum :lol: )

If you all were to recommend one Henze CD to a total novice to his music, which would it be? I should note that generally, I don't care for anything more modern than the Second Vienna School composers, other than a bit of Ligeti and a BIT of Boulez (really, in small doses).


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> Henze-mania lately... I can feel this composer's presence in the Zeitgeist of our times (or of our forum :lol: )
> 
> If you all were to recommend one Henze CD to a total novice to his music, which would it be? I should note that generally, I don't care for anything more modern than the Second Vienna School composers, other than a bit of Ligeti and a BIT of Boulez (really, in small doses).


The DG recording of the first six symphonies is a good place to start


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


> The DG recording of the first six symphonies is a good place to start


Excellent... added to my wish list.

Henze himself conducting? That is cool...


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## flamencosketches

Are you familiar with the following:

https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-6-Hans-Werner-Henze/dp/B0044ZQ8J4

It appears there may be some overlap in the recordings. But if the DG is notably better, I'll shell out the extra 10 bucks. I appreciate most of the other "20th Century Classics" series recordings that I've heard from their label.


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> Are you familiar with the following:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-6-Hans-Werner-Henze/dp/B0044ZQ8J4
> 
> It appears there may be some overlap in the recordings. But if the DG is notably better, I'll shell out the extra 10 bucks. I appreciate most of the other "20th Century Classics" series recordings that I've heard from their label.


Think those are the same recordings as DG


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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Henze-mania lately... I can feel this composer's presence in the Zeitgeist of our times (or of our forum :lol: )
> 
> If you all were to recommend one Henze CD to a total novice to his music, which would it be? I should note that generally, I don't care for anything more modern than the Second Vienna School composers, other than a bit of Ligeti and a BIT of Boulez (really, in small doses).


Hi
My main purpose in joinging this chat forum, was to gather new insights in Henze's music, as I have zero musical training, and so his masterpieces are beyond my mental configurations. I can only appreciate Henze via musical notes in my being/soul, but have no resoucres to explain what how it is composed/crafted. Others here have helped me to understand whats going on, and I need to go back and read/re read all the posts past 3 days, to further my grasp of Henze. 
I've learned a lot about his musical construction in these posts from those with musical training.

Yes, I also do not venture too far off the beaten paths of the 3 great great 2nd Viennese masters. Elliott Carter is a giant for me.
Ligeti/Boulez countless others are interesting, nothing more. Rihm OK. I like some Berio, but not willing to buy cds at this point. 
As for Henze. I've yet to hear any *dud*, exception his 1st sym, which he admits is a *complete dud*. Prokofiev made attempts to rescure his 4th sym in a *revised* scoring. Both 4ths are *dud*, he should have trashed both versions before passing. With Henze, so far, all clear winners, all homeruns, some grand slams. 
As I say often in this Henze page, one of my main objectives is to promote my idea that Henze is germany's greatest 20th C composer, and greatest on the world stage. 
I've made edits on wiki's Henze page, but the edits keep scratching my opinion.'Wiki just has it as *Henze was a german composer*,. But if you look at Stravinky's wiki page, *a very highly influential 20th C composer*, which I will admit, as everyone has told me so, but past 30 yrs, Stravinsky has never appealed to me. 
Henze is a major revelation.
So lately Henze has been the talk on Classical Talk.

I would say one reason Henze has never cauth on, and may never become as popular as say Stravinsky, is due to the nature of his music. It is very complex, and few can grasp whats really going on. But then I could say the same for Mahler, I can not understand how Mahler has been so popular for so long. I just don't *get* Mahler.
I'd say classical music is something akin to alchemy , either you connect, or you don't. 
I have a friend who shares the same love for Pettersson as I, yet he can not connect at all with Henze. Nothing, nada. He know music well, he just does not *get* Henze.


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## Bwv 1080

paulbest said:


> Hi
> My main purpose in joinging this chat forum, was to gather new insights in Henze's music, as I have zero musical training, and so his masterpieces are beyond my mental configurations. I can only appreciate Henze via musical notes in my being/soul, but have no resoucres to explain what how it is composed/crafted. Others here have helped me to understand whats going on, and I need to go back and read/re read all the posts past 3 days, to further my grasp of Henze.
> I've learned a lot about his musical construction in these posts from those with musical training.


Henze wrote more or less intuitively and did not systematically work out pieces like, say, Elliott Carter. Most pieces do contain definite motives and development, which separates them from the works of more modernist composers.


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## paulbest

Bwv 1080 said:


> Henze wrote more or less intuitively and did not systematically work out pieces like, say, Elliott Carter. Most pieces do contain definite motives and development, which separates them from the works of more modernist composers.


 Hi Bwv1080
I think you may remember me from CMG chat or was it CMC,,back in the early 2000's. 
I was writing on the forum then, late that night as Katrina was barreling down on New Orleans, after midm=night,,,and you guys were telling me I was wrong and to seek shelter,,i thought she was headed to texas,,the electricity shut off as I was typing messages,,,some 12 hrs later I was huddled up in my 2nd floor , with a dog I was caring for and my cat..as the waters rose just up to top of stairs, 12 feet flood. 
I heard the levve blow and all, Unreal, she blew very hard 24 hrs, a tornado struck and shook my home,,,any way, I recall a few of you guys back in 04/05 were trying to let me know of Henze's genius,,I boughta few cds, but nothing opened, could not figure Henze out, so I sold off the cds on the cheap, as *trash*.
Great post you have here.
*Intuitive*. I like this insight.
So he's not comosping ona whim, whatever pops into his head.
*which separates them from the works of other modernist composers* 
Yes , I could tell, Henze was like carter, almost in same relation as was Debussy and Ravel, realted but different.

I love carter, Pettersson, Schnittke, but Henze is something different. His music affects me in ways I can not explain. Almost *mystical*, hate to use this word,,maybe *mythical*. Yes Mythical, as his music has greek plays , historical events as inspirations, also he uses poems as inspiration. Deep man for sure. 
after 14 yrs I finally *get* Henze,,I am sure some of you back then had a hunch I may eventually run back into enze. Just wanted to tell the old gang, I finally awakened to Henze. Some tragic events have taken place in my life since then, and so these inner transformations may have breaken down stubborn puerile barriers to Henzeian genius. 
Muic as you know is not external, rather a internal, soul experience.


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## Bwv 1080

paulbest said:


> Hi Bwv1080
> I think you may remember me from CMG chat or was it CMC,,back in the early 2000's.
> I was writing on the forum then, late that night as Katrina was barreling down on New Orleans, after midm=night,,,and you guys were telling me I was wrong and to seek shelter,,i thought she was headed to texas,,the electricity shut off as I was typing messages,,,some 12 hrs later I was huddled up in my 2nd floor , with a dog I was caring for and my cat..as the waters rose just up to top of stairs, 12 feet flood.
> I heard the levve blow and all, Unreal, she blew very hard 24 hrs, a tornado struck and shook my home,,,any way, I recall a few of you guys back in 04/05 were trying to let me know of Henze's genius,,I boughta few cds, but nothing opened, could not figure Henze out, so I sold off the cds on the cheap, as *trash*.
> Great post you have here.
> *Intuitive*. I like this insight.
> So he's not comosping ona whim, whatever pops into his head.
> *which separates them from the works of other modernist composers*
> Yes , I could tell, Henze was like carter, almost in same relation as was Debussy and Ravel, realted but different.
> 
> I love carter, Pettersson, Schnittke, but Henze is something different. His music affects me in ways I can not explain. Almost *mystical*, hate to use this word,,maybe *mythical*. Yes Mythical, as his music has greek plays , historical events as inspirations, also he uses poems as inspiration. Deep man for sure.
> after 14 yrs I finally *get* Henze,,I am sure some of you back then had a hunch I may eventually run back into enze. Just wanted to tell the old gang, I finally awakened to Henze. Some tragic events have taken place in my life since then, and so these inner transformations may have breaken down stubborn puerile barriers to Henzeian genius.
> Muic as you know is not external, rather a internal, soul experience.


Hi Paul, remember you from those boards. Henze was an acquired taste for me as well


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## Larkenfield




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## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> Are you familiar with the following:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-6-Hans-Werner-Henze/dp/B0044ZQ8J4
> 
> It appears there may be some overlap in the recordings. But if the DG is notably better, I'll shell out the extra 10 bucks. I appreciate most of the other "20th Century Classics" series recordings that I've heard from their label.


Yes get the DG complete set , like 16 cds for under $60.

I bought various single /double releases, and wish I had just bought the entire collection instead.


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## paulbest

Bwv 1080 said:


> Hi Paul, remember you from those boards. Henze was an acquired taste for me as well


At the end of my stay there, I was getting a bit hyper critical, some members wanted to me gone..I was a bit neurotic, and was appropriately tagged as The iconoclast.

Well put, *acquired taste*. Not sure if anyone can just jump into Henze, as say with Rachmaninov's 1st piano concerto, which is love at 1st hearing. Prokofiev's 1st piano concerto, love at 1st listen. Henze is like Schnittke, takes effort, open attitude, willingness to explore.


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## paulbest

I looked and searched all over amazon for this set, always had it as empty,,,then I began googling,,I learned a new trick about amazon. Not understanding why. but I began googling 
*henze symphonies wergo*,,and BINGO up pops this listing below..But if you try directly on amazon's site, it will not take you to this EXACT listing,, Amazon apparently has multiple listings of this same set,,,,I 've found other OOP/raeities not able to bring up on amazon, but if I google *Henze Kurt Masur* it will bring up that OOP listing. I had to buy single releases off ebay and amazon of the Wergo,,,,,so badly wanted the complete set,,.
So here is the Wergo set, all performances excellent. 
Read all the excellent reviews on this set

https://www.amazon.com/Henze-Symphonies-Nos-1-10-by-Wergo/dp/B019GMABY2


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## paulbest

I think the term is ~~tenudo~~ extending a note...Here is a short work for cello, which shows how dedicated Henze is to writing in excellence.


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## paulbest

Time for a new Henze work, Either you love him or hate Henze, no middle ground. 
This is quitea unusal piece, Looking for comments,
You can read 
robertocrudo's comment in the YT upload, 
he says he had a chat with Henze,,,also mentions a certain *Donaueschingen scandal* 1957 ,
when during a premiere of Henze's Arien, seems Stockhausen, Nono, Boulez walked out in some sort of protest...
I have no idea what that *fiasco* was all about.
But it brings up the Q, 
who did Boulez ignore Henze's works? Being sucha great promoter and conductor in modern music, how did Boulez overlook Henze's masterpieces?
Odd, if not strange.
I think the soprano here is a certain Edda Moser, who has unusual voice range and perfect for this score


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## mikeh375

paulbest said:


> I think the term is ~~tenudo~~ extending a note...Here is a short work for cello, which shows how dedicated Henze is to writing in excellence.


Not tenudo Paul...tenuto. It means to hold the note for its full duration and possibly with a slight accent, depending on the context.
Tenudo is extending something with clothes off I believe.


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## CrunchyFr0g

This would be one of my desert island disks. Beautiful performances - for me, even better than Bream.


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## paulbest

Henze 2nd sym
Scored in 
1949
UNREAL
Crushing

early work , but for us Henzeians, a masterpiece , a major modern 20th C symphony.






Recently uploaded, april 2019, only 63 views, no comments,.
had it been a Beethoven work, it would have 10X;s, no make that 1000 hits by now. 
Hejnze music for the ~~Underground community~~~


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## mikeh375

paulbest said:


> who did Boulez ignore Henze's works? Being sucha great promoter and conductor in modern music, how did Boulez overlook Henze's masterpieces?


Henze's aesthetics where somewhat cautious of the totalitarianism of Boulez and Darmstadt. His eclectic voice was a rigorous and free spirit. His influences ranged wide from Stravinsky through Schoenberg but his own sensibilities where always to the fore. Given Boulez's domineering and didactic polemics and his pole position at Darmstadt (Henze was there too), his shunning of Henze is no surprise especially as there is a tangible link to the great tradition in Henze's work, albeit through his own prism. This was anathema to Boulez who once scathingly likened Henze's opera Der Prince Von Homburg to Don Carlos.

Such was Boulez's divisive influence at that time that many composers either submitted to the Darmstadt regime or rebelled against it. Personally I love Henze and Boulez, but Boulez's music sometimes feels to me like a music that shouldn't exist just yet, such is the forward looking reach it has in all aspects of composition. The one work of Henze's I have trouble getting into at present is the 7th symphony, but I have the score and I'm sure more familiarity will reap rewards, it always has with Henze.

(A friend of mine at our Alma Mater got an appointment to see Henze in London for some compositional advice. The only advice he got after Henze had perused some of his scores, was to "travel". This did not go down well with we young composition students eager for technical secrets, but now in later life, his seemingly dismissive advice makes so much sense if one also considers metaphorical definitions beyond the literal).


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## paulbest

mikeh375 said:


> Henze's aesthetics where somewhat cautious of the totalitarianism of Boulez and Darmstadt. His eclectic voice was a rigorous and free spirit. His influences ranged wide from Stravinsky through Schoenberg but his own sensibilities where always to the fore. Given Boulez's domineering and didactic polemics and his pole position at Darmstadt (Henze was there too), his shunning of Henze is no surprise especially as there is a tangible link to the great tradition in Henze's work, albeit through his own prism. This was anathema to Boulez who once scathingly likened Henze's opera Der Prince Von Homburg to Don Carlos.
> 
> Such was Boulez's divisive influence at that time that many composers either submitted to the Darmstadt regime or rebelled against it. Personally I love Henze and Boulez, but Boulez's music sometimes feels to me like a music that shouldn't exist just yet, such is the forward looking reach it has in all aspects of composition. The one work of Henze's I have trouble getting into at present is the 7th symphony, but I have the score and I'm sure more familiarity will reap rewards, it always has with Henze.
> 
> (A friend of mine at our Alma Mater got an appointment to see Henze in London for some compositional advice. The only advice he got after Henze had perused some of his scores, was to "travel". This did not go down well with we young composition students eager for technical secrets, but now in later life, his seemingly dismissive advice makes so much sense if one also considers metaphorical definitions beyond the literal).


Excellent insights, a bit over my range,,,,,,but in know you answered my (typo) *Why did Boulez not record Henze?*. 
Considering my high regard (understatment, as I am one of Henze's biggest fans) for unqiue modern music, Henze would have seemed right up his alley. 
Oddly enough, I've tried some bits of Boulez, , , just not my taste,,its too post modern. Henze is a phenomenon, Boulez sounds like manipulated , formulated, well thought out , mush,,,
Now Boluez's piano music is a different matter, I have the Naxos cd, yet awaits play time and only chanced upon it , via referene to Idil Biret's with a Webern piece,,,,Has a Boulez piece. Otherwise I would have overlooked his piano music. 
Yes OK, *link to the great trad*, This is also what I hear , fainly in Henze, , His music is modern, but never so much as to completely break all trad rules and forms. 
Whereas , you say, Boulez's music seems *too far ahead of its time*.

It is *odd music*,,,but again, maybe I was too quick over reactionary, judgmental.

Honestly, I will give it more sound bites, but can not promise anything. I really have a strong disdain for post modernISM. (ism = disease like = a virus, to be shunned, avoided). And my ~antenna~ seems to have detected some modern-ISM in Boulez's orch scores.

All this makes sense, my powerful attraction to all things Henze, and some *resistence* to Boulez, who really went off on his own path, 
Perhaps he traveled down a path far off the beaten path, and went into ,,,nom man's land,,,Henze would certainly get a laugh at that quip,,,after he suggested to your friend, to travel, Which no doubt was meant metaphorically , yet also in a real time sense. 
A journey into My Zion National park, Seuoia NP, Redwoods, one exits a different man , than when entered. 
Thanks for all the insights, which I will ponder over, and read up on.
Interesting epoch this early 1950's Darmsteadt environment,,,where new creations were being formed.


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## paulbest

WEll this is certainly not the place to posta Boulez YT upload of Boulez Notations. ,,,This Academy orch, considering its ago group, is simply stunning in its level of performance. 
10/10 on performance,,,the music I've not madea final decision as yet. 
Its so Varesesque, maybe too much so. I love Varese, and maybe its a good thing that Boulez here completes what Varese 

left unfinished, so to speak. 


Ck out the size of the orchestra, quite a score, that's for sure. 
There is more to Boulez I know, and will visit his other orch works later today. 


well, I will not post the YT link, afterall, this is strictly Henze's corner. 
Not sure as yet, if Boulez's orch, Notations is even worthy to sit on Henze's page. 
I have Henze quite high in musical creation, I rank his music as germany's greatest 20th C, and above germany;s legacy in CM, above Bach and Beethoven.


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## paulbest

I note a few are trying to *get into* Henze,,,I just commented,,,with Henze its almost as if one needs a code,,a password to get inside the door.. A ~~revelation~~ is required. 
Try every few yrs,,,something might/might not *click*. 
Surely making Henze a *acquired taste*. 

I tried him some 15 yrs ago,,and quickly sold off the 3 cds on the cheap.
Now after 15 yrs,,,its completely different...A few GMGers were trying to convince me of Henze,,,but I was not ready. 
It is really 
~~The Henze Club~~
Hope you can join us , one day,,at least pay us a visit for English tea and german cakes


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## ECraigR

I just found out about Henze because of this forum and I’m quite in love with his work. I’m not sure how I missed it for all of these years, but I had never even heard of him before a few days ago. I’ve only listened to his orchestral works so far, but I understand he has some chamber pieces as well that I’ll have to check out.


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## paulbest

ECraigR said:


> I just found out about Henze because of this forum and I'm quite in love with his work. I'm not sure how I missed it for all of these years, but I had never even heard of him before a few days ago. I've only listened to his orchestral works so far, but I understand he has some chamber pieces as well that I'll have to check out.


I came here to TC about oh, 5 months ago,,,my main objective was to ~~promote~~ Henze. ,,,but seems I've gotten carried away into all sorts of venues,,and into a bit of ~~trouble~ with the mods,,who have been patient and gracious with many of my ~~obnoxious~ opinions...well I'm starting all over,,,and will mainly stay within the Henze room,,,this thought occurred to me as I was driving back from lunch,,,then I see your post.

I'm not out to ~~pump~~ Henze, not pushing his music on anyone,,as I've stated numerous times here,,,that I hope no one goes out and buys a cd based on any of my ~~hype~~ for Henze..henze's music speaks for itself,,he needs no cheer leaders, nor apologists, nor promoters. 
So please, no one go out and spend money on a Henze cd, UNTIL you've spent some time on YT, oh say for a year...skip through what you don't like, nothing *clicks**, move onto another work,,or another modern composer...

As I hear Henze, his music,is 
1) approachable
2) wide ranging in styles= something for everyone, and yet no one in particular
3) intriguing(draw's in the listener = not music that can be so typical of ~~post modern = repulses the listener), if one has the silent, non biased time required.

4) captivating, holds one attention = no fluff, no fliers, no dead zone sections = anti=boring music
5) not overly aggressive nor ultra modern = post modernism is not his style (as he left that for Boulez and Stockhausen to play around with over at Darnsteadt,,HA!)

6)He was never trying to become a *Beethoven*. He seems to write from a imagination which has so many ideas going on, lets say if Debussy and Ravel were both the supreme masters of the ~~Impressionistic ideational writing methods~~, Then it may be conjectured Henze is of ~~The Imaginative, Freeform style~~ which has no methodology. 
Henze music suffers no ~~ISMS~ as does infect the post mod doctrine of writing music.

7) His music reflects no direct ~imitations/copying~ of another great composer who he has studied, Sure you may hear Shostakovich, Bartok, Webern, Berg, Karl Hartmann I believe may have influenced his writing,,,which is a very good thing,,as Hartmann has some interesting symphonies. Also Stravinsky may be herad…
I am typing all this as I listen toa newly arrived cd the postman delivered from Amazon...it is the 3 VC's/ released on the MDG german label, released in 2005,,that's almost 15!!! years ago...Bet sales are only in the few hundreds,,if that...

anyway, most of these thoughts came out of the 26 minute VC1. 
Written in 1948. Not sure if his ~~ruckus/dispute~ over at darnmstedt was pre 48 or afterwards...

Gotta run...be back later...


----------



## Larkenfield

Interview with Henze in 1981:
http://www.bruceduffie.com/henze.html
He seemed quite congenial in personality. There's so much variety in his music that you never know exactly what you're going to get. It's like a box of chocolates and you have to trust that it's probably going to be good. It's nice to see in the interview that he could be relaxed and had a sense of humor because I was beginning to wonder about that because of the intensity in some of his music. Gifted composer.


----------



## paulbest

Larkenfield said:


> Interview with Henze in 1981:
> http://www.bruceduffie.com/henze.html
> He seemed quite congenial in personality. There's so much variety in his music that you never know exactly what you're going to get. It's like a box of chocolates and you have to trust that it's probably going to be good. It's nice to see in the interview that he could be relaxed and had a sense of humor because I was beginning to wonder about that because of the intensity in some of his music. Gifted composer.
> 
> ]


great find,,i will surely read over that interview,,,aswe do not have much in way of personal testimony from the man,,which helps us , as you say,,,connect us with his music...
Humor?
There is a interview where he mentions at one of his concerts which had some sort of anti-gov line in the lyrics,,and some mentioned to ~~the authorities~~ that Henze had made such and such a lyric in the score which was to be programed that night,,,well the *gestapo~ police came rushing in at concert,,,full riot gear,,when asked to share his reactions at the time of this event he only grinned and said,,,
~~So ,,German~~
talk about sharp, razor sharp wit and humor,,,this intelligence is reflected all over his music.

btw excellent analogy , ~~box of chocolates~, ~~surprise centers~,

~Gifted composer~ he seems to write in a way,,~if its not meant to be there,,,then don't add it in~,,,can you imagine how long it would take another composer,,,,to work a score on this level, with there seems to be ~~no fillers/fluff/dud~~ sections.

I am listening now , to the 4th move of the 1st Vc as I type. 
,,no wait,,its moved on to the 1st move of the 3rd VC, written in 1997. laid back piece, really Novo Arte,,I'd say Bergian in character. But these quips are only based on the opening movement....there are

2 more to go in this 3rd VC
and
anything can happen
Surprises not only in each work, but in each movement of every work.


----------



## paulbest

Probably does not have any meaning,,,unless you are one of those ~~Theosophists~ (as was Henze;s old friend Stockhausen) who believes dates have hidden significance...Henze passed away 
October 27, 2012
Elliott Carter passed away
November 5, 2012
A week in that 2012 year, which I hold as significant for the High arts.
Can't say anymore than that.

EDIT, 4 hours later,,,Listening to the 2nd ~~Violin concerto??~~
If you expect to hear ~~your typical violin concerto~~ you will be sorely disappointed , its not your ~everyday, average violin concerto~~, what is it ? Exactly? 
Well, that's Henze for ya..Written in the last yr of the hippies, 1971,,so go figure, it was a wild time,,and perhaps Henze was into those hippy days,,,From a poster on YT who had Henze stay over with him, somewhere near Austin Texas, , can 't recall the yr of this adventure he had with Henze,,but he mentions Henze smoking joint,,,so my guess here is Henze might be high on weed. 
Because its not his usual better scoring,,,this 2nd Vc is sort of ~~strange~~ and may I say,,I'm not sure if I accept this one from Henze.
We may have a ~oddity here~I can only take so much ~ can I say, *Weirdness* ~ in my music. Some far out ideas is a good thing. But how far out do we want to go, before we say,,,nuf is nuf~~
Not sure about this 2nd,,,,comes as a shocker,,,as I really felt Henze had all fine compositions. ,,,,,,just skiped through the other 2 movements,,,,,,,that 3rd movement ,,is just ~~odd~,,,4th, 5th movement same ~~oddities~~, , 2nd VC = dud , is my vote.


----------



## paulbest

This 2vc of Henze written in 1971, is ~~100% pure trash~~ did I say ~~garbage?~,, complete utter nonsense. 
Henze really, really let me down on this ~~Rubbish~~~


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## paulbest

His failed 2nd VC can be attributed th o this nonsense froma german mod poet, Enzensberger
Hommage to Gobels. 
Worthless trash poem, worthless trash 2nd VC. Henze went awol here on the 2nd VC

https://poetrywithmathematics.blogspot.com/2016/07/homage-to-godel.html


----------



## CrunchyFr0g

I came to Henze through The Royal Winter Music Sonatas for guitar which I love.

If you haven't seen it, there's an interesting short video showing Henze and Julian Bream working on making Henze's original draft more playable on the instrument.


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## paulbest

Nice find, 
Now I am more interested in this Royal Winter Guitar music,,,more than ever, after watching this up live video, rare spot on Henze busy at work, You can see the lightening fast speed at which his mind works in music.
calculations at the speed of light. 
Just amazing find. 
With his RWM, he is more than forgiven on his *dud* 2nd VC,,which is a complete disaster,,,Not sure why he kept it in his catalogue.
Strange that he did...


----------



## ECraigR

This is brilliant. He sounds like a Glenn Gould but on the guitar.


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## paulbest

ECraigR said:


> This is brilliant. He sounds like a Glenn Gould but on the guitar.


I was surfing the amazon listings for Henze,,,and hit upon a listing,,,which I was COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF,,(unusual 
for me to make a new discovery after spending hours/days/months in previous research)
works for Duo Guitars. 
Completely unaware of this listing. Arrives Monday. 
I mean this could be amajor discovery. How did I miss it months ago....


----------



## paulbest

The contemporary music fans, adamantly demand a answer as to why I chose Henze over all their most beloved Contemporary composers as being superior in all areas of composition .
Here is why Henze is solidly placed within The Classical traditions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Hans_Werner_Henze

The only *dud* I have come across so far is the 2nd violin concerto , 
I mean,,,well tell you what, allow me to revisit the *thing* make sure I know what I am talking about, , Even if found a *dud* , that's not too shabby, 
One *dud* out of the extensive mammoth list of master scores


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## paulbest

Yep after listening to the place where I left off last time on YT at ^:20 ,,,suffered to 6:30, 
Official *dud*, if not worthless trash.


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## ECraigR

Who’s the performer and what’s the label? Henze’s ouvre seems quite extensive, and if the video above is any indication, he appeared to have a genuine interest in the guitar. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s more works we don’t know about somewhere.


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## paulbest

ECraigR said:


> Who's the performer and what's the label? Henze's ouvre seems quite extensive, and if the video above is any indication, he appeared to have a genuine interest in the guitar. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more works we don't know about somewhere.


ahh yes, his oeuvre is like no other Modern,,well late modern composer,,,EXCEPT, well 2 actually, Carter and Schnittke. 
The listing came as a great surprise
here is the listing


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## CrunchyFr0g

He also wrote Ode to an Aeolian Harp, which is a guitar concerto in all but name.
It took me a few listens to begin to get into it, but it's worth the time.
This is the version I have


----------



## paulbest

CrunchyFr0g said:


> He also wrote Ode to an Aeolian Harp, which is a guitar concerto in all but name.
> It took me a few listens to begin to get into it, but it's worth the time.
> This is the version I have
> 
> View attachment 121074


As a completist in Henze,,,I will most likely purchase the cd. Here is YT upload,,,the piece , at least in this performance,,,seems a bit thin/weak/laid back. Not the usual thickly scored Henze…
Ck out the incredible large flute in this work. 
I might also say the micing was not that great here, as you can see intruments being played, yet you can only pick up faint sounds.
I am hoping the Naxos has 
superior sound quality
and superior performance.

I love harp in classical, usually the harp is drowned out by the loud orchestra, as in Ravel, Sibelius.

Here in this chamber work, I am sure it can be heard clearly, as Naxos has good sound engineering. 
Comments please


----------



## Guest

I've listened to Henze sporadically over the years. Today the 7th symphony, Janowski. I could make nothing of it, so many voices that with no clear relation to each other. I previously listened to the Rattle recording of this work and recall getting the Janowski recording after feeling it was going past me. Where to start with Henze? I also have the DG collection of his symphony recordings (un-listened-to, as of yet) and a recording of Ondine.

Where should I go next?


----------



## paulbest

I just began reading Henze's auto, even if one does not *get* his music, the book is a great read, how he came to survive/escape the horrors of Nazi germany.
More importantly early in the book Henze goes on to share his early formative influnces, began compositiona studies as early as 1942. 
He was gifted and yet had no idea where to go with these gifts.
He had doubts, if his music would ever be accepted/understood. 
I can understand this. His music was , of all composers the most dif to &get*. Yet honestly Henze is turing into my most impressive composer. 
I just ordered the 16 DG set, already had more than 1/2 of the set of singles.
Yes, the auto offers some insights, many of which I can not follow, due to me lack of musical background. Yet his descripts of his forms, now makes sense of hos I hear his music. I got some answers I wanted, even though I only grasp on a intuitive level, less full cognitive.

Let me see if I can upload a few pages from the bio, for your interest

you may need to add size on your comp screen to read.

















as I say, Henze will not be easy going, 
I have nearly 40+ cds, if we count the 16cd set,,,I have more Henze than any other composer, nearly equal to Mozart. Just behind Schnittke. 
Good Luck in your trials and efforts,,,come back to Henze every few yrs, Took me some yrs to *get* Henze.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Try Ondine or the 2nd Symphony

The 7th Symphony never did much for me


----------



## flamencosketches

I really would like to hear Julian Bream's recording of the Royal Winter Music. I watched the video of him consulting with Henze during the composition process and it was fascinating! Can anyone show me where I might find it on CD? My search results are not promising, only seeing it on LP and such. 

Failing that, has anyone else recorded it with more or less definitive results? It's a damn hard piece, and I'm sure not just any guitarist can pull it off.


----------



## starthrower

David Tabenbaum is the obvious choice. He is a champion of Henze's music and he's recorded the work twice. According to a knowledgeable reviewer at Amazon the work has its shortcomings but the guitar skills required to pull this off are exceptional. He recommends Britten's Nocturnal, and Tippet's Blue Guitar for other great guitar compositions.


----------



## Art Rock

flamencosketches said:


> I really would like to hear Julian Bream's recording of the Royal Winter Music. I watched the video of him consulting with Henze during the composition process and it was fascinating! Can anyone show me where I might find it on CD? My search results are not promising, only seeing it on LP and such.
> 
> Failing that, has anyone else recorded it with more or less definitive results? It's a damn hard piece, and I'm sure not just any guitarist can pull it off.


I have this one:









https://musicbrainz.org/release/15bcbae6-83c4-4234-bec6-7812c6eccc6a

Whether it is still available, I don't know.


----------



## Guest

Bwv 1080 said:


> Try Ondine or the 2nd Symphony
> 
> The 7th Symphony never did much for me


Thanks. Are Henze's own recordings of his symphonies the best option?


----------



## CrunchyFr0g

flamencosketches said:


> Failing that, has anyone else recorded it with more or less definitive results? It's a damn hard piece, and I'm sure not just any guitarist can pull it off.


Elliot Simpson has a beautiful recording of the two Royal Winter Music sonatas. He brings out the poetry that is under the surface of these pieces. The disk is called Royal Winter Music.


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> I really would like to hear Julian Bream's recording of the Royal Winter Music. I watched the video of him consulting with Henze during the composition process and it was fascinating! Can anyone show me where I might find it on CD? My search results are not promising, only seeing it on LP and such.
> 
> Failing that, has anyone else recorded it with more or less definitive results? It's a damn hard piece, and I'm sure not just any guitarist can pull it off.


Bream only recorded the first set, and as starthrower pointed out, David Tannenbaum was/is the real expert on these pieces, having played them for Henze who was so impressed he wrote his guitar concerto for him. Eliot Simpson was a student of Tannenbaum - so there is a direct lineage to Henze there


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## Bwv 1080

Baron Scarpia said:


> Thanks. Are Henze's own recordings of his symphonies the best option?


Yes and about the only one. Wergo has some good recordings, but the DG is a great set


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## flamencosketches

Thanks for the background! I did not know about any of that. Tannenbaum it is then.


----------



## Guest

Bwv 1080 said:


> Try Ondine or the 2nd Symphony
> 
> The 7th Symphony never did much for me


This turned out to be a great suggestion. I listened to the 2nd symphony (Henze's own recording) and it made a strong impression. Now I feel I have my foot in the door of Henze's music.


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## paulbest

makes me very happy to see Henze bumperd up at the top,,,it was my initial objective to promote Henze and nothing else, My sole objective,,,but I got sidetracked


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## paulbest

Just arrived.

IMHO
DG's best ever release, 
Single/compliation, whatever, Best in their history
Also
IMHO
This set price will rsie and rise,,as it is a 2013 release ,and DG only issues X # of sets, and no one is willing to part with their sets,,and so, add 
1+1 and what do you get?
In 5 yrs this set will go for $150+.
I got mine $80/includes shipping 
~~sweeeet~~ 
although I already had 8 of these DG singles, and had other labels in some of the otherw orks in this set,,i decided I need the missing parts to make the whole complete.
The sym set release may always be cheap, as there are countless offerings available,,,but this complete, she'll rise. 
late commers will be tough out of luck,,as I know cm fans, they don;'t like to fork out $150, only if they have to. 
I will wait for the singles prices to rise and I will list on amazon, when I can get a good price.

Best release ever from DG in their entire history.
Seems Henze may have had a following back in the 60's, 70's there in germany , as he had his music performed at times...Whereas here in the states, I bet you can't find more than 10 performances of his music, in the past 50 years. 
What does this tell you?

I can't say, as I am under very strict probation and have to watch ever single word that comes out my mouth,,,
Censorship is not easy , fear the mods and protect, hold on to your free speech. 
Don't go down the road I went on,,as you never know when your post will be STRUCK DOWN.

Peace
Out


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## Guest

You may want to keep those singles if they include sung text, which is not included in the box, I take it.


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## paulbest

Baron Scarpia said:


> You may want to keep those singles if they include sung text, which is not included in the box, I take it.


Yes
Someone over at amazon was laid a legitimate complaint about how DG was negligent in the set, not providing librettos/texts. 
We would all prefer paying $15 more w all texts, I am sure. 
DG dropped the ball on that one.
I mean music w/o the text? 
Cheated.


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## millionrainbows

Paul, Is this really you?I saw it on your Amazon review. If so, you look totally different than I had imagined. I hope Woodduck sees this also, as he made some mean comments about you. He'll probably fall in love with you now...











paul best
new orleans



​​


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## NLAdriaan

millionrainbows said:


> I hope Woodduck sees this also, as he made some mean comments about you. He'll probably fall in love with you now...


Paul, I would avoid this, a Valkyries ride with the grumpy old duck would not be on my list of musical events.


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## Guest

After not connecting with the 7th symphony the 2nd symphony was impressive (Henze/BPO) and I've just listened to the 8th Symphony (Janowski) which I found engaging. I think I will continue with a slow traversal of these works.


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## flamencosketches

Just arrived. I'll give it a spin tonight.

What are some other key works of Henze...?


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## Bwv 1080

flamencosketches said:


> View attachment 121794
> 
> 
> What are some other key works of Henze...?


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## flamencosketches

Bwv 1080 said:


>


Really beautiful. Thank you.


----------



## paulbest

A Petterssonian friend, just sent mea note how he is *gripped/stunned* parphrased mine,,,by Henze's Mesmerizing musical score to A Swan In Love, a French film, with a very beautiful actress and a sos so story line...Read the comments in the YT section,,everyone loves this new unknown Henze.
1 comment says there is now a facebook Henze page,,,
I told you guys Henze is not *just another mod/avant garde* composer, ,,where he can be logged in with a group of 20 or so other late mod composers,. 
My Petterssonian friend mentioned earlier he can not at all *get* Henze,,until now he sees the French film Swan In Love.
Now this may be his ticket to get his foot in the door of the Henze train.

Sure the Henze recognition may yet take a full 50 yrs, before his *train arrives at the station*. 
But its chugging along, picking up stops along the 50 yr journey to stardom.

Come it will, as I;'ve always said on this topic,,its just a matter of time. 
His art is not easily accessible, yet I am intuiting the classical community will not be so lethargic , if not lazy in how it hears classical music.
To *get* Henze one has to make prep work. 
The reason I hada block on Henze was duev to my stubbornness and neglect of paying closer attention,,also due to lack of maturity= needed more time with the 3 great 2nd Vienesse, Varese, Carter, Schnittke,
Afterwards of these experiences, my senses, my hearing was open to Henze.


----------



## Guest

Fans of Henze orchestral music, can you articulate what you find compelling in this music? I find myself interested but a bit baffled.


----------



## Littlephrase

paulbest said:


> A Petterssonian friend, just sent mea note how he is *gripped/stunned* parphrased mine,,,by Henze's Mesmerizing musical score to A Swan In Love, a French film, with a very beautiful actress and a *sos so story line*...Read the comments in the YT section,,everyone loves this new unknown Henze.
> 1 comment says there is now a facebook Henze page,,,
> I told you guys Henze is not *just another mod/avant garde* composer, ,,where he can be logged in with a group of 20 or so other late mod composers,.
> My Petterssonian friend mentioned earlier he can not at all *get* Henze,,until now he sees the French film Swan In Love.
> Now this may be his ticket to get his foot in the door of the Henze train.


I've yet to see this particular Schlöndorff film, but I can assure you there is nothing "so-so" in the source material from Proust's masterpiece. However, it is most difficult to translate Proust's brilliance into the cinematic medium, so this comes as no surprise.


----------



## paulbest

Littlephrase1913 said:


> I've yet to see this particular Schlöndorff film, but I can assure you there is nothing "so-so" in the source material from Proust's masterpiece. However, it is most difficult to translate Proust's brilliance into the cinematic medium, so this comes as no surprise.


I recall seeing some of this film , yrs ago,,,the music did not strike me back then, as I was not into modern classical at that time . 
I recall the acting was not superb, and this held the story back, as well , one must know French to make the film work. Subs does not get at it. 
I hope to read the book one day
Thanks for the post.


----------



## millionrainbows

Baron Scarpia said:


> Fans of Henze orchestral music, can you articulate what you find compelling in this music? I find myself interested but a bit baffled.


It sounds beautiful, rich, complex, moody; rhythmically forceful, evocative. Yayuh!


----------



## millionrainbows

Henze haters: sell me your Henze CDs which you have rejected!


----------



## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> It sounds beautiful, rich, complex, moody; rhythmically forceful, evocative. Yayuh!


Perfectly described. , can not add even one word. 
and considering how long my posts run on and on,,and on,,,yet here, nothing to say. 
Others outside the gates, peeking in through the hedges, just can't figure out how the Henzeians get all excited about his music. 
Considering Henze is not on the radar for the vast majority of all CM programs, etc,,,I kind of see Henzeians as a sort of cult following. 
I really do.

Its beyond being considered a *acquired taste* its more like a initiation.


----------



## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Henze haters: sell me your Henze CDs which you have rejected!


When I recently purchased some Henze cds, amazon says *You purchased this cd in 2005*,,,i now recall, i quickly dumped them back on amazon for a loss. 
I was like *how could these forum members ramble on to convince me to click purchase*,,i was disgruntled, as those funds could have gone for other *great* cds. 
,,,The answer is blowing in the wind,,,,,,,


----------



## millionrainbows

This makes me want to listen to some Henze.


----------



## flamencosketches

I ended up pulling the trigger on the Tanenbaum recording of Henze's "Royal Winter Music" guitar sonatas, and a worthy purchase that was. I really like this piece. I'm still trying to figure out where to go from here with Henze, because the guy wrote so much music, and some of what I've heard has just been baffling... I recall hearing a concerto that Henze wrote which had a part for recorded tape and a woman singing in English, that I really couldn't make heads or tails of... I want to say it was a violin concerto.


----------



## paulbest

flamencosketches said:


> , that I really couldn't make heads or tails of... I want to say it was a violin concerto.


Thats Henze for ya. 
His music will swirl your senses,,,just don't try to figure out his music.

His violin concertos are not really *concertos*, They also break the concerto model. 
Henze is Henze 
If you thought Schnittke was hard to *get*, Henze is no doubt the #1 most difficult to *get*. 
His music is so challenging, folks make vain attempts, and walk off in disgust.
I LOVE it. 
Just too hilarious. 
You need a secret code password to get in the concert hall. 
and odd, one of Henze's last wish is that his music would be accessible to the general public...lol.
Deep down he knew his music was *gnostic*, 
I think he may have had slight premonitions , late in life, that his music would not take flight off the runway, for a *commercial flight* . 
But then all his life, his only intent was to score the greatest music his creative energies could muster. 
and he did, create masterpieces,,well masterpieces to only those who , as a great teacher once said, so often, 
*He who has ears, Let him hear*. 
His last wish may/may not find fulfillment. 
mankind has to make that decision, whether to follow his course as fate,,,or 
, discover a New Destiny. 
Now The New Destiny ain;'t looking so ,,,,prosperous, nor percipient. 
It seems, like folks are just kicking ,,the old can down the road.....I think Henze sensed this judgement, in his last years of life. 
Pity man loves his material things, which bumps out the creative arts. Well no, not all the arts,,as The White Linen Julia Street art party which is quite a event along the Julia street art center/downtown, Where there is a offering for sale and a showing of some nice modern art.
I think Henze music would fit right in with that group. Well lets say, his music might find acceptance with this group,,,only if they would make a attempt and a seeking, as they do the external art form.

seems this society is all about extroversion,,where the inner man , goes about w/o food and water,,,he is dragged along by our forceful extroversion. 
Extroversion attitude ain't gonna find Henze of interest. 
ain;'t gonna happen my friends. 
Its the old seek and ye shall find,,,, , but not just a casual looking around,,,but a earnest effort , a work, a challenge, a journey,,a ,,fate,,? No not a fate, You ain't gonna have Henze music just drop out the sky,,,*here IT is*, ain't gonna , never will happen like that. 
Plus, i doubt many under the age of say 30 yrs, will *get* Henze, 
Possible, but doubtful. 
There are composers for every age group, Henze is post 30 group.


----------



## millionrainbows

Henze is here to entertain me, make no doubt about that.


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## paulbest

If this was the only work Henze wrote in his life, I'd say, based on my experiences in 
Shostakovich
Berg
Schoenberg
Webern
Schnittke
Elliott Carter
Alan Pettersson
I'd make this statement.
*What a great composer is Hans Henze*
Guys we are talking 1 score, Nothing other than this. 
Who knows this might not even be Henze finest SQ of the group, who knows, I've yet to explore the entire set. saving for when my stereo, if ever is repaired. 
Uno score.






whats the word everyone likes to use,,,,sublimity.....


----------



## millionrainbows

Henze: A great composer, and a helluva ketchup as well.


----------



## paulbest

millionrainbows said:


> Henze: A great composer, and a helluva ketchup as well.


Yeah well I prefer HEINZ ketchup to Delmonte, for sure. 
And i also prefer Henze to that other label,,,,Stockhausen's brand

You 've got some posts to answer for over at topic ?
*why has germany been bankrupt in composers genius past 75 years considering they once had Bach and Beethoven from the land's soil,,,what happened* 
My paraphrasing ...
that topic is all over the place now,,,everyone is spouting their,,ideologies as to how germany went downhill.
My take is that germany still remains strong in genius of composers,,,with Henze. mid/late 20TH C.


----------



## Larkenfield

Henze left Germany for Italy in 1953 because of its politics and homophobia, and died years and years later in 2012. That's hardly in favor of Germany's creative climate and his favorable ties to that country. He essentially abandoned Germany less than eight years after the war though his roots were there.


----------



## paulbest

No, he made this move out of some disputes twix his ideas and the powers that be in Darmstadt. 
Instinctively (and he had a good sense of this, as he had to dodge danger throughout the war, some close calls), he knew to esacpe those who may have influenced his creativity in a way that ended up with the rest over at Darmstadt.
There is not one in the list of Darmstadt attendees whose music i much like. 
And yes my few weeks stint with Boulez's music is kaput. , Finis. 
WOW had he forsook his intuitions, sense of danger, we may not have his music is the forms we have it,,and to me,,,it is inconceivable to lose out on that array of wonders. 
You know i am the boards lone Henzeian. 
Did he abandon, or escape?


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## Enthusiast

So Darmstadt had control over the arts in Germany? Perhaps they practiced assassination but only within the West German borders. Or was it just that they represented a fractious voice in an international dialogue, a voice that could not be avoided by crossing a border but a voice that could be argued with. But at least you have discovered for us that the Darmstadt composers were composing poor music. As for Boulez's music, I must have missed your attempt but would never think of recommending it to you as it is so obviously not music that would suit your taste.


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## paulbest

Boulez had at least some association with Darmstadt, although no german , he still can be pegged to that influence there in germany. 
Post 1950 borders broke down, Its more international. 
I did say there was one of Boulez pieces that I liked, Repons, I did not see it in print, only YT upload. 
I have his piano cd/Biret. 
Interesting,,but it seems the music is similar to his later style of conducting, kind of jerky, lacks emotion, 
There are some TC members who get annoyed over criticism of Boulez. maybe a bit inferiority feeling. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000DNMM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1erfer Henze, so feel no loss in skipping Boulez. , nor that entire Darmstadt group. 
And its not as if i have to take sides, Not at all. 
my ears make that decision. An old grudge is not going to dictate which music i accept. 
Not sure why, I note a difference in quality twix the darmstadt group , and Henze. 
Or is it my prejudice and fondness for Henze that is coloring my perceptions?
Whatever i can find good music in the Darmstadt group, I can find superior, the same in Henze. 
A composer does not have to always be 1st tier foe me to come around to his music.
For instance I like some Tubin and also some Kalabis, Both 2nd tier composers. 
And yes that whole group, as i looked over the names of composers mentioned by wiki associated with the Darmstadt Institute.


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## millionrainbows

Henze is definitely good music.


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## SanAntone

The upshot from a conversation I had in the "greatest symphonist" thread with *Torkelburger* tiphat concerning *Hans Werner Henze* and *Witold Lutosławski* is this post.

As is my custom when a composer is highly recommended but whose music is somewhat unknown to me, I do a "deep skim," i.e. I find all the works available on Spotify and save them to playlists and drag them (chronologically) into folders for the various work categories: Opera, Symphonies, Other orchestral, Choral, Vocal, Chamber, Solo instrumental .... (Wikipedia is an excellent source for works lists).

As I am doing this I play a minute or two from each work, and those that strike my fancy I go back to and listen further.

Today is Hans Werner Henze Day.

Right now I'm listening to _Fünf Madrigäle_ (1947) in this recording:

*Hans Werner Henze*: _Lieder Von Einer Insel and other works_










I can confidently say that my previously held opinions (somewhat born of ignorance) for Henze and Lutosławski have undergone some revision.


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## Torkelburger

Wow! Thanks, San Antone! I'm glad I could re-pay the favor! You got me to keep re-visiting Ferneyhough and it's growing on me. I re-visited the 6th SQ recently and can really hear some nice things.

I hadn't seen this thread before. Some great posts! I'm just getting off a busy day at work so will try and get to this this weekend or beginning of next week. Will enjoy hearing your thoughts. Maybe we can discuss Lutoslawski and/or Penderecki (and appreciate the other composers you mentioned or want to mention). Maybe start some opera threads too as I need to explore some more in that area.

Just taking a quick peek at the thread, I see a connection between Hartmann and Henze in regards to people liking both composers...them being similar...and/or perhaps they may have known each other??? Does anyone know definitively if Hartmann and Henze were friends/acquaintances, or colleagues, mutual admirers, etc.? I know Henze left Germany and lived in Italy most of his life (not sure the exact date he left) and Hartmann died fairly young. But you don't necessarily have to live near each other to be friends, etc., of course.


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## starthrower

I don't know if Henze and Hartmann were friends or even if there music is similar? But this thread has been around for ages and back then I was collecting all of their symphonies. I just revisited the Hartmann symphonies last week but I haven't listened to Henze in years. But after being away from symphony listening all year I'm getting back in to it so I'll have to revisit the Henze cycle. And I need to re-listen to the violin concertos as well.

Another good work by Henze is his instrumental requiem. I have the CD but the live video performance is on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2266BA66A5A63117


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## Torkelburger

hespdelk said:


> I've explored his symphonies at different times. Personally I break these into two groups, his "early" ones, numbers 1 to 6, and the late ones, 7 to 10 - so far.
> 
> I never cared much for the first 6 symphonies (the old DG set).. (though I'm due for a reassessment, its been some years since I heard them), but Henze's late symphonic flowering is powerful deep music, not easily approachable, but significant. Some of the most important symphonies of the last 30 years in my view, up there with those of Penderecki and Schnittke's last three.


Heh, I listed these same three composers (in addition to Lutoslawski and Tippett) in a recent thread of important symphonists post-Shostakovich. I just wanted to add that saying "important" isn't the same as saying "favorite", although I hold them all in the highest regard and Penderecki's and Henze's are among my favorites.

It's the same sort of thing if I was to judge the most important symphonists in my own country (USA). I would recognize Hanson, Copland, Schuman, Harris, etc., as important, even though my favorites are more along the lines of Sessions, Wuorinen, Riegger, Rouse, and others.


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## Opisthokont

List of compositions by Hans Werner Henze  He's written in so much diverse music that there is something in there no matter what your tastes are!

I really love Henze's violin concerto 1 - it's probably my favorite violion concerto in general actually. It's crazy how he shows such a mastery of dodecaphony so early in his life!


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## 96 Keys

I'm not a fan of vocal music in general, but I thoroughly enjoy every instrumental piece I've heard by him, which is most of what he's written. I especially like the symphonies, piano concertos, violin concertos, and the string quartets.


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