# Favourite opera character?



## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

There are some operas that I find hard to watch because the characters are so unsympathetic. Pinkerton, the Duke of Mantua and Siegfried come to mind, but we won't go there again. 

Others are plain dumb. I'm watching Otello at the moment and I keep wanting to shout "DON'T MENTION CASSIO" every time Desdemona hoves into view. Really she has the interpersonal skills of a sea-cucumber.

On the other hand there are some characters I love. My very favourite is Minnie from La Fanciulla del West. I find her brave, resourceful, loyal, realistic, and giving, but at the same time not averse to a little sleight of hand with the cards when it comes to saving the life of the man she loves, so she is certainly not saccharine either.

Who are your favourite characters? (And maybe your less favourite ones)?


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

This is likely to get tangled up with the performer too, isn't it? So for instance, I think I'm in love with Massenet's Cendrillon - but am I _really_ in love with Frederica von Stade? When she sings 'Je suis princesse, je suis reine! Je suis reine! Reine! Reine!' I melt at the innocent pleasure she's expressing, but I'm not sure it would be the same if anyone else were singing it.

But this is a question I haven't really thought about before. I have a big soft spot for Fiordiligi because she tries so hard to hold out but caves in anyway. I identify in some personal way with Ariodante - I feel the pain of what he believes to be betrayal, and share his joy in discovering after all that it wasn't.

They're the ones that pop into my head straight away, but I'm sure there are more.

Oh yes - of course - the Marschallin in _Rosenkavalier_! The pain at the end, the resigned wisdom of how she tackles it ... wonderful character.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Hmm, let's see, I like cunning types.
Gianni Schicchi, Figaro, Despina... Cleopatra in Giulio Cesare...

Otherwise, Hoffmann is an interesting fellow.
Simon Boccanegra is a decent guy.

Dislikes:
Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are despicable.
I can't stand Werther. Like I said before, the wimp should stop whining and kill himself already.

Unlike my nickname indicates, Almaviva is *not* one of my preferred characters. I picked this name because it is a synthesis of two of my passions - opera and wine - and because its meaning matches my personality, if I may be excused for being conceited enough to call myself a lively soul.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

mamascarlatti said:


> My very favourite is Minnie from La Fanciulla del West. I find her brave, resourceful, loyal, realistic, and giving, but at the same time not averse to a little sleight of hand with the cards when it comes to saving the life of the man she loves, so she is certainly not saccharine either.





Elgarian said:


> Oh yes - of course - the Marschallin in _Rosenkavalier_! ... the pain in the end, the resigned wisdom of how she tackes it ... wonderful character.


The list of admirable and resourceful operatic female characters seems a longer roster than the parallel list of males, yeah?

Now I looked through my Verdi and Puccini performances, some of my Eastern European repertoire and even cracked the 'Milton Cross' _Great Opera Stories_ hard-back, in an attempt to get away from a predictable Wagnerian answer- but it's no use. I just can't steer clear of the venerable cobbler-poet of Nurenburg, *Hans Sachs* from _Die Meistersinger_. He, too, is more responsible than anyone for steering the course of the story- prevailing in his goals through his perception and wits- and yet we sense some measure of loneliness at his core.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> The list of admirable and resourceful operatic female characters seems a longer roster than the parallel list of males, yeah?


Oh, I dunno. Giulio Cesare is a pretty honourable guy as world conquerors go. Des Grieux stays loyal to Manon even though she's a little baggage. Figaro's good at thinking on his feet. Cavadarossi tolerates torture for freedom. As Almaviva says, Boccanegra behaves well in the opera (although we know he's been ruthless in the past).

You are right about Sachs though, a truly admirable character in his modest way.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Oh, I dunno. Giulio Cesare is a pretty honourable guy as world conquerors go. Des Grieux stays loyal to Manon even though she's a little baggage. Figaro's good at thinking on his feet. Cavadarossi tolerates torture for freedom. As Almaviva says, Boccanegra behaves well in the opera (although we know he's been ruthless in the past).
> 
> You are right about Sachs though, a truly admirable character in his modest way.


Hans Sachs is indeed a good choice.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

von Stolzig and Sachs from Meistersinger - how can you dislike guy that is personification of clear, natural art and another one that is so perceptive that he understands it's value and offers his help? Both of those types are so great that almost unreal in our world. 

Kurwenal from Tristan und Isolde - noble and faithful dude. 

Tannhauser - I don't know why, he's crazy bitch, especially when Kollo sings him he seems like weird somnambulist with strikes of hysteria, really my kind of guy.

Lohengrin 

and Siegfried.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

For goodness' sake, Buddha is an opera character now! (Per Norgard, Siddharta)

Another favorite of mine is (of course) Oedipe. His role is wonderfully dignified and noble (much like Enescu himself, apparently).

I've only heard the first act of Die Zauberflote just yet, but I will try to finish it today and see which character(s) I like from it the most.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

World Violist said:


> I've only heard the first act of Die Zauberflote just yet, but I will try to finish it today and see which character(s) I like from it the most.


Papageno!


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

rgz said:


> Papageno!


I'm actually sympathizing a bit with Papageno right now, actually. It's like a minor revelation to me that I can actually sympathize with opera characters now.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sarastro is another dignified, nice guy. I could identify with him, as long as he can stay safe from that dreadful Queen of the Night who wants him dead. Especially when Damrau plays her, she is terrifying! :lol:

A character I don't especially like: Gilda is kind of dumb, isn't she? The Duke rapes her, and she is still willing to protect him... tsk, tsk.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Love: Offenbach's Eurydice. My kind of gal. I agree with a previous post which states that character and favourite/most attractive performer of the role can become intermingled. Must be the reason I can't get Natalie Dessay out of my mind when thinking of Eurydice - *sigh*.

Hate: All of the characters from Tippett's The Knot Garden. I like the opera but find the protagonists the kind of shallow and pretentious b*stards that I would try and avoid at all costs in real life.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

World Violist said:


> I'm actually sympathizing a bit with Papageno right now, actually. It's like a minor revelation to me that I can actually sympathize with opera characters now.


Even Natalie Dessay's surgeon likes Papageno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4-fXtxdXeE#t=6m29s  (I so want this ringtone, it's so much more kitchy and fun then an mp3 of the actual aria would be)



elgar's ghost said:


> Love: Offenbach's Eurydice. My kind of gal. I agree with a previous post which states that character and favourite/most attractive performer of the role can become intermingled. Must be the reason I can't get Natalie Dessay out of my mind when thinking of Eurydice - *sigh*.


She's fabulous to be sure (both the character and, of course, Ms. Dessay) but I think I actually like Cupidon better. Such a prankster :devil:


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

rgz said:


> Papageno!


Exactly, Papageno rules! :tiphat:

The Marschallin is to me the most fascinating character in opera. I also like Elektra. Strange choice maybe, but I feel sorry for her and it's sad that she has to die.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Sarastro is another dignified, nice guy. I could identify with him, as long as he can stay safe from that dreadful Queen of the Night who wants him dead. Especially when Damrau plays her, she is terrifying! :lol:


Funnily enough I don't like Sarastro, with his smug assumption that he knows what's best for everyone. I can't forgive him for giving Tamina into the dubious care of Monostatos. I mean, S is supposed to be wise, and he can't see that M is obviously a lecherous creep ?

I'm a Papageno fan too - it's one of those ones that's tied up with the singer, both Keenlyside and Gunn do great jobs of portraying him.


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## Alnitak (Oct 21, 2008)

mamascarlatti said:


> Who are your favourite characters?


Zerlina.

Even if I tried many times to date her, after the performance, without (alas... !) success! 



mamascarlatti said:


> ...And maybe your less favourite ones...


This guy... Leperello...

ooh...

don't ask me why!


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## Dulcamara (Sep 22, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> There are some operas that I find hard to watch because the characters are so unsympathetic. Pinkerton, the Duke of Mantua and Siegfried come to mind, but we won't go there again.


I really loathe Pinkerton. In fact, though I have known the story of "Madame Butterfly" for a long time, I had avoided even listening to it until very recently for this very reason. I only ended up giving it a listen because I found out that Puccini incorporated some adapted bits of actual Japanese music, which seemed interesting. Now that I've heard it, though, I have to admit that the whole piece is quite a good opera. Of course, now I despite Pinkerton all the more.

Er, on to the more likable characters, now. I'm also fond of crafty, wily characters, so perhaps I'll need to be on the lookout for any recommendations you may have, Almaviva.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

Dulcamara said:


> Er, on to the more likable characters, now. I'm also fond of crafty, wily characters, so perhaps I'll need to be on the lookout for any recommendations you may have, Almaviva.


Scarpia might fit the bill. (You specified crafty and wily, not likeable  )


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> Scarpia might fit the bill. (You specified crafty and wily, not likeable  )


Crafty and wily, some likable, some not? OK, let's see, other than the ones I've already mentioned, Dr. Dulcamara, obviously (there's a reason why the user picked this nickname, LOL), Basilio, Leporello, Zerlina, Susanna, Norina, Armida, Benvenuto Cellini, Mephistopheles...

Hey, there you go! I could identify myself with Benvenuto Cellini, the ultimate cool guy!!!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

One of my favourites is Sparafucile. He has integrity. He's a contract killer & is most indignant when it's suggested he might kill the customer instead.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

sospiro said:


> One of my favourites is Sparafucile. He has integrity. He's a contract killer & is most indignant when it's suggested he might kill the customer instead.


I've aways wondered why he is quite happy to kill the wrong guy though. Surely that goes against the Assassin's Code too?


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## Dulcamara (Sep 22, 2010)

Well, I guess a lot of the crafty ones might be somewhat shady, too.

Leonore hasn't been mentioned yet. You can be crafty and good, although even in Leonore's case there is a dark edge to her noble feat.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

Not nice: Peter Grimes

Nice: Ellen Orford


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I've always wondered why he is quite happy to kill the wrong guy though. Surely that goes against the Assassin's Code too?


I know - integrity but not total integrity.

Another of my favourites is Rodrigo, Marquis of Posa, despite the fact that someone once said of him: He'd be all "Stay home and mind the kids while I save the world and bond with my buddy, no I don't know what time I'll be home". Guys like that are a bit short on romantic dinners and cosy evenings by the fire.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I know - integrity but not total integrity.
> 
> Another of my favourites is Rodrigo, Marquis of Posa, despite the fact that someone once said of him: He'd be all "Stay home and mind the kids while I save the world and bond with my buddy, no I don't know what time I'll be home". Guys like that are a bit short on romantic dinners and cosy evenings by the fire.


What kids? Rodrigo doesn't seem to have a love interest. Some stage directors have depicted him as homosexual, with feelings for Don Carlo. While I don't think it is the right explanation, Rodrigo notoriously is not interested in women, family, etc. Pardon for being too literal, it's just that Rodrigo is a somewhat unique case.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chris said:


> Not nice: Peter Grimes
> 
> Nice: Ellen Orford


It's not that Peter Grimes is not nice, in my opinion.
I never felt that his child abusing persona was his real self. I think he got progressively crazier thanks to the alienation he suffered due to the collective judgment passed by the villagers against him. This opera is about the power of public opinion, not about Peter Grimes' shortcomings. He sort of adopted the persona the village had established that he was. Anyway, that's the way I see it.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Peter Grimes is a paragon of virtue compared to Peter Quint. He's just as vile dead!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

elgar's ghost said:


> Peter Grimes is a paragon of virtue compared to Peter Quint. He's just as vile dead!


But Peter Quint maybe wasn't even real... (I mean, wasn't a real ghost); some believe that he was a figment of the imagination of the governess.

Britten and Henry James are tricky... LOL


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> What kids? Rodrigo doesn't seem to have a love interest. Some stage directors have depicted him as homosexual, with feelings for Don Carlo. While I don't think it is the right explanation, Rodrigo notoriously is not interested in women, family, etc. Pardon for being too literal, it's just that Rodrigo is a somewhat unique case.


You kind of had to be there. It was a discussion about which (male) opera characters were hot. Someone said they fancied Rodrigo and this was the reply.

Actually it's making a similar point to yours, but based more on Rodrigo's strong political beliefs - people with that kind of idealism often fail in romantic commitment with either gender.


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## classidaho (May 5, 2009)

:devil: The Phantom...............


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> You kind of had to be there. It was a discussion about which (male) opera characters were hot. Someone said they fancied Rodrigo and this was the reply.
> 
> Actually it's making a similar point to yours, but based more on Rodrigo's strong political beliefs - people with that kind of idealism often fail in romantic commitment with either gender.


Yep, that's it, this is why I said "I don't think this is the explanation." Rodrigo is a political animal, no time for love.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

I like characters who you think initially are strong but actually quite vulnerable. Wotan, King Marke and King Phillip spring to mind.


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## Keikobad (Jul 9, 2010)

Story and Music, for me, are so closely interlocked that I find it difficult to separate the two and consider character strengths and frailties on their own merits.

Berlioz, in his opera "Les Troyens" focused his attentions on two very strong and, in some cases, single minded women, Cassandre and Didon.. The former leads her vestal virgins to proudly self-immolate themselves in order to avoid the dishonor to which the Ethiopan invaders would subject them. As for Didon, perhaps if wiser heads had prevailed, she wouldn't have acted as rashly as she did; but Berlioz' grandest opera (based on Virgil's Aeneid) ultimately achieves a monumental impact through music which goes directly to the heart.

Strauss' "Elektra", for me, is endlessly fascinating and engaging. The role of Elektra is less Active than Passive (ie. the character has spent years living with her step-towfather and mother, knowing full well that the two were directly involved in the murder of her father, Agamemmnon). But the emotional release she achieves at the end with her Totentanz is so wonderfully cathartic for all.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jflatter said:


> I like characters who you think initially are strong but actually quite vulnerable. Wotan, King Marke and King Phillip spring to mind.


I think King Philip is a brute. OK, so he courts our sympathies by saying no-one loves him, but is it surprising - he's happy to put his son to death (as long as the church agrees), and I can't see how he gives Elisabetta any reason to love him, sending her friends home willy-nilly and accusing her of being a ***** when he knows perfectly well she was engaged to Carlos before he high-handedly changed his mind.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think King Philip is a brute. OK, so he courts our sympathies by saying no-one loves him, but is it surprising - he's happy to put his son to death (as long as the church agrees), and I can't see how he gives Elisabetta any reason to love him, sending her friends home willy-nilly and accusing her of being a ***** when he knows perfectly well she was engaged to Carlos before he high-handedly changed his mind.


Exactly! I don't like King Philip at all.


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## jflatter (Mar 31, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think King Philip is a brute. OK, so he courts our sympathies by saying no-one loves him, but is it surprising - he's happy to put his son to death (as long as the church agrees), and I can't see how he gives Elisabetta any reason to love him, sending her friends home willy-nilly and accusing her of being a ***** when he knows perfectly well she was engaged to Carlos before he high-handedly changed his mind.


Ok in their own ways all three characters aren't exactly easy men (although Marke has the most sympathetic points). Of course none of these men I would ask round for a cosy dinner with the wife. I just find these types of characters the most interesting:tiphat:


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

jflatter said:


> Ok in their own ways all three characters aren't exactly easy men (although Marke has the most sympathetic points). Of course none of these men I would ask round for a cosy dinner with the wife. I just find these types of characters the most interesting:tiphat:


Yes I'll certainly agree that the more fallible characters are intriguing - Wotan, particularly, nominally the Top God but thwarted on all sides by contracts, his wife and the failure of his plans. He's so human, I find him sympathetic despite his plotting and behaviour to his daughter.

Marke has done nothing wrong, but I don't find him that interesting - it takes a fine actor to bring him to life.

So who would you invite (from the world of opera) for a cosy dinner with the wife?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

mamascarlatti said:


> Marke has done nothing wrong, but I don't find him that interesting - it takes a fine actor to bring him to life.


In Berger's book _Wagner Without Fear_, he said that focus on Marke was aided by recognizing that King Marke was the character most like us. Now that can qualify as an assumption based on facts not in evidence... but the turn-of-phrase does get us to thinking about events from Marke's perspective.

However- Marke sanctions what ultimately is a procurement mission-- bypassing the typical courtship dynamic of personal reward AND personal risk (e.g.- of rejection). Put another way, it's like the promise of a free lunch. And like the offers of free lunches in so many other contexts, it's unquestionably, inarguably NOT free.

In a similar vein, the multiple mentions of Papageno were interesting. Relatively few of us are fearless, unhesitating Taminos (however we may be inspired by their example from time to time). Societies need their Papageno Everymen too, the same way we need those who (in the words of Milton) "also serve who stand and wait."


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> However- Marke sanctions what ultimately is a procurement mission-- bypassing the typical courtship dynamic of personal reward AND personal risk (e.g.- of rejection). Put another way, it's like the promise of a free lunch. And like the offers of free lunches in so many other contexts, it's unquestionably, inarguably NOT free.


I'm still not entirely clear about the backstory. I get that Isolde is not happy about being taken as bride to Marke - are we to understand that she was captured forcibly?

Reading the libretto it seems that she is "tribute" in return for Tristan's victory, but is nonetheless travelling with the consent of her parents. This was a fairly standard way of arranging royal marriages in those days and I don't really see it as procurement in the same way as Siegfried's abduction of Brünnhilde for Gunter.

Marke would expect to marry for dynastic and diplomatic reasons rather than romantic attraction. That's what mistresses were for.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

jflatter said:


> Ok in their own ways all three characters aren't exactly easy men (although Marke has the most sympathetic points). Of course none of these men I would ask round for a cosy dinner with the wife. I just find these types of characters the most interesting:tiphat:


You have a point. I was thinking about my dislike for King Philip, and as a matter of fact I need to respect him more.

He is a pragmatic king. He understands the limitations of his power, as opposed to the Great Inquisitor and the Church. He takesa an approach to power that is realistic more than idealistic. This is actually a rather modern position. Ideology in the 21st century is down. Chiefs of state these days act out of pragmatic interests a lot more than out of ideology.

Also, King Philip is a guy who sacrifices any aspiration of a private life, for the matters of state

He is vulnerable, but he tries his best.

Maybe I shouldn't dislike him as much.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> You have a point. I was thinking about my dislike for King Philip, and as a matter of fact I need to respect him more.
> 
> He is a pragmatic king. He understands the limitations of his power, as opposed to the Great Inquisitor and the Church. He takesa an approach to power that is realistic more than idealistic. This is actually a rather modern position. Ideology in the 21st century is down. Chiefs of state these days act out of pragmatic interests a lot more than out of ideology.
> 
> ...


But what he does with his power is oppress the Netherlands, bully his son and deprive him of a chance of marriage and issue (not a very sensible way of ensuring the succession BTW), use religion as a weapon not a solace, and treat his young vulnerable wife like a doormat and *****. What's to like?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

mamascarlatti said:


> I get that Isolde is not happy about being taken as bride to Marke -


Not happy...understatement---

If verbal-component sorcery were as reliable for Isolde as explosives are reliable for modern conflict, 
Isolde would have been witchcraft's equivalent of a "suicide-bomber."

Hört meinen Willen, Zagende Winde! Heran zu Kampf und Wettergetös! Zu tobender Stürme wütenden Wirbel!
Treibt uas dem Schlaf dies träumende Meer, wecht aus dem Grund seine grollende Gier! Zeigt ihm die Beute, die ich ihm biete!
Zerschlag es dies trotzige Schiff, der zerschellten Trümmer verschling's!
Und was auf ihm lebt, den wehenden Atem, den laß ich euch Winden zum Lohn!

Give ear to my will, half-hearted winds! Off to battle and turbulent elements! To the furious vortex of raging tempests!
Shake from her slumber the somnolent sea, awaken from her depths her malevolent greed! Show her the prize I have to offer!
Let her smash this insolent ship and gorge on her shattered wreckage!
And whatever has life on her, that faint breath, I leave as reward to you winds!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> But what he does with his power is oppress the Netherlands, bully his son and deprive him of a chance of marriage and issue (not a very sensible way of ensuring the succession BTW), use religion as a weapon not a solace, and treat his young vulnerable wife like a doormat and *****. What's to like?


Sure, what you quoted is why I dislike him. And I actually didn't say like him more, but rather, respect him more. I was just thinking of his statement at the end of the dialogue with the Great Inquisitor:

_Dunque il trono piegar dovrà sempre all'altare._
Therefore the throne must always bow to the altar.

So, part of what he did was influenced by the power of the Church.

Where he messed up badly (or rather, messed up *as well,* because oppressing the Dutch wasn't exactly his best point...) was in his personal life. He isn't very skilled in these matters:

_Se il serto regal a me desse il poter di leggere nei cor..._
If the royal crown gave me the power to read hearts...

Remember, this is one of Verdi's political operas. I believe that what he was showing (through Schiller) is that power corrupts, and does it even more when the powerful curb themselves to a more absolute power (the Church's), since absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Like we frequently see in Verdi (except in his very early operas) and his librettists (whom he pestered until he shaped everything to his liking) his heroes and villains are complex figures who display ambivalent motivations and both good and evil traits.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> There are some operas that I find hard to watch because the characters are so unsympathetic. Pinkerton, the Duke of Mantua and Siegfried come to mind, but we won't go there again.
> 
> Others are plain dumb. I'm watching Otello at the moment and I keep wanting to shout "DON'T MENTION CASSIO" every time Desdemona hoves into view. Really she has the interpersonal skills of a sea-cucumber.
> 
> ...


You mentioned Handel's leading role in _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_. I guess "favourite" has two meanings here: you like the character because of his/her qualities in the unfolding drama, and or favoruite because he/she had the best arias. For example, some truely stupid characters in many of the Baroque operas (especially some of the magic operas) have some of the loveliest of arias, but their fictional qualities are no better than Homer Simpson. But Cesare had the best of both worlds.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> You mentioned Handel's leading role in _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_. I guess "favourite" has two meanings here: you like the character because of his/her qualities in the unfolding drama, and or favoruite because he/she had the best arias. For example, some truely stupid characters in many of the Baroque operas (especially some of the magic operas) have some of the loveliest of arias, but their fictional qualities are no better than Homer Simpson. But Cesare had the best of both worlds.


Cesare is without a doubt my favourite character out of Handel's operas (unless we can count the wise Solomon). He shows himself to be forgiving in his willingness to make peace with Pompey, and brave and decisive later on. But as Elgarian said earlier, often our appreciation of a character is bound up with the singer, and the particular Cesare I'm a little in love with is Sarah Connolly's dashing general.

And pretty much my favourite aria of all is "Va tacito e nascosto". Or is it "Se in fiorito"? Hard to choose, this opera is just a stream of wonderful music.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Cesare is without a doubt my favourite character out of Handel's operas (unless we can count the wise Solomon). He shows himself to be forgiving in his willingness to make peace with Pompey, and brave and decisive later on. But as Elgarian said earlier, often our appreciation of a character is bound up with the singer, and the particular Cesare I'm a little in love with is Sarah Connolly's dashing general.
> 
> And pretty much my favourite aria of all is "Va tacito e nascosto". Or is it "Se in fiorito"? Hard to choose, this opera is just a stream of wonderful music.


Agree. _Va tacito e nascosto_ is a standard old favourite. Handel's genuis exemplified using very simple themes. _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ is just an opera full of glorious arias, full of contrast of emotions, which makes Handel the strongest by far of all Baroque operatic composers. J. S. Bach wrote his arias for the church, which beautiful as they were, do not show a range as expansive as those emotions dervied from opera.

Handel wrote three masterpieces in a row: _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ (February 1724), _Tamerlano_ (October 1724) and _Rodelinda_ (February 1725), that were pinnacles of his _Royal Academy_ years. Three operas that still stand up well to any three and a half hours plus opera of any later period.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Handel wrote three masterpieces in a row: _Giulio Cesare in Egitto_ (February 1724), _Tamerlano_ (October 1724) and _Rodelinda_ (February 1725), that were pinnacles of his _Royal Academy_ years. Three operas that still stand up well to any three and a half hours plus opera of any later period.


Good. _Rodelinda _is the next one in my Netflix queue so I'll be watching it soon (this weekend).


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

After seeing Boulez's Rheingold, Wotan is fast becoming one of my favorite characters. I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but the guy who wrote that Das Rheingold contains no sympathetic characters is just wrong. This performance made me realize that Wotan is one of the most intensely sympathetic characters in Rheingold, if not throughout the whole Ring cycle. This production reveals Wotan as a remarkably conflicted character. Besides, even just the way other characters look at Wotan makes one feel sorry for him. In this way he's a remarkably deep character.

Least favorite? The Rheinmaidens, they're rather stupid. Reminds me of a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" In this case, the watery tart did throw the tool containing executive power at the person who would take advantage of it. And he got supreme executive power. So I'll just call the Rheinmaidens a bunch of watery tarts throwing rings at people and leave it at that. Oh, and trying to seduce random travelers.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> After seeing Boulez's Rheingold, Wotan is fast becoming one of my favorite characters. I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but the guy who wrote that Das Rheingold contains no sympathetic characters is just wrong. This performance made me realize that Wotan is one of the most intensely sympathetic characters in Rheingold, if not throughout the whole Ring cycle. This production reveals Wotan as a remarkably conflicted character. Besides, even just the way other characters look at Wotan makes one feel sorry for him. In this way he's a remarkably deep character.
> 
> Least favorite? The Rheinmaidens, they're rather stupid. Reminds me of a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" In this case, the watery tart did throw the tool containing executive power at the person who would take advantage of it. And he got supreme executive power. So I'll just call the Rheinmaidens a bunch of watery tarts throwing rings at people and leave it at that. Oh, and trying to seduce random travelers.


It's not just this production. Wotan *is* a deep, conflicted character. He's got his good sides as well.

Three attractive women who try to seduce random travelers will never be my least favorite characters.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Good. _Rodelinda _is the next one in my Netflix queue so I'll be watching it soon (this weekend).


This one:










Or this one?










I ask because I have the first of the two and I'm not happy with the production, although the singing is fine.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

World Violist said:


> Least favorite? The Rheinmaidens, they're rather stupid. Reminds me of a quote from Monty Python and the Holy Grail: "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" In this case, the watery tart did throw the tool containing executive power at the person who would take advantage of it. And he got supreme executive power. So I'll just call the Rheinmaidens a bunch of watery tarts throwing rings at people and leave it at that. Oh, and trying to seduce random travelers.


The brilliant blogger Sieglinde has written a masterly synopsis of Rheingold and shares your low opinion of the Rheinmaidens.

Here's scene one: 
_
Scene 1

In the depths of the Rhine

Woglinde: Waialaila... or something like that.
Wellgunde: Does this mean anything?
Woglinde: No idea. But apparently we have sing mysterious words with a lot of Ws and Ls.
Flosshilde: Look there! A gnome?
Woglinde: No, it's a dwarf.
Wellgunde: No, a goblin.
Alberich: The correct term is "nibelung". Hey girls, how about some sex?
Woglinde: I love you... wait, you are ugly!
Wellgunde: Forget here, I'm prettier. But you really suck.
Flosshilde: They're so evil, aren't they, my dear? What, you ugly old monster! Go away!
Mermaids: HA! HA! HA!
Alberich: You are mean. I hate women now.
Rhinegold: *glitters*
Mermaids: Oh, look at our pretty unguarded treasure!
Alberich: Wow, shiny... what is it?
Mermaids: Well, it's just some gold you can use to forge a Ring Of Power, and rule the world...
Alberich: *dollar signs appear in his eyes*
Mermaids: But it's safe, since to get it, you have to curse love. And you'd never do it...
Alberich: I CURSE LOVE! *steals gold*
Mermaids: Oops._

Read the rest here.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Wow, this is brilliant...


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

World Violist said:


> Wow, this is brilliant...


Ditto! Nice preparation for this Saturday's Rheingold broadcast.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> This one:


It's the first of the two. I like Antonacci, I had good expectations. What are your objections to the production?


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

World Violist said:


> Least favorite? The Rheinmaidens, they're rather stupid.


This has been a topic before...

The Rhinemaidens were pretty stupid contains a post of mine where I posit 
that there's something worse than Rhinemaidens... and that's *no* Rhinemaidens.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> It's the first of the two. I like Antonacci, I had good expectations. What are your objections to the production?


Well, I'm not sure what setting it in the silent film era and putting weird black lipstick on everyone really adds to the story. I didn't find it deeply offensive, just not helpful. But Alan really hated it.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> This has been a topic before...
> 
> The Rhinemaidens were pretty stupid contains a post of mine where I posit
> that there's something worse than Rhinemaidens... and that's *no* Rhinemaidens.


I do remember that thread. I suppose you're right... however grudgingly one comes to this conclusion, all of the characters in the Ring serve some purpose, and the Rhinemaidens a rather large one... it's kinda like breaking the fourth barrier, really. I mean, they're swimming around and spot an ugly guy, try to seduce and frustrate him, and then wink at the audience while saying, "so yeah, there's this gold here..."


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## Poppin' Fresh (Oct 24, 2009)

I guess I've always looked at the Rhinemaidens as representing nature in an undisturbed and idyllic state: beautiful, innocent, but wholly naive. In any case I've always found their scenes immensely enjoyable at the least.


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## World Violist (May 31, 2007)

Poppin' Fresh said:


> I guess I've always looked at the Rhinemaidens as representing nature in an undisturbed and idyllic state: beautiful, innocent, but wholly naive. In any case I've always found their scenes immensely enjoyable at the least.


Hmm I guess you've got a good point there. Maybe I was just kinda irritated by Chereau dressing them as prostitutes... he's got a good point too.

Yay for morally/symbolically/ideologically ambiguous characters...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Wotan was cool - he just happened to have an over-large disfunctional family. Bearing that in mind I'm surprised no-one has yet attempted an opera on the life of George III (8 Songs For A Mad King wasn't a bad taster).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> This has been a topic before...
> 
> The Rhinemaidens were pretty stupid contains a post of mine where I posit
> that there's something worse than Rhinemaidens... and that's *no* Rhinemaidens.


Very interesting. I didn't know that the Rhinemaidens were Wagner's creation. He's not the most cheerful fellow, our Wagner, so one's gotta love it when he adds not one but actually *three* attractive and scantly clad women to a scene.:tiphat:


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I ask because I have the first of the two and I'm not happy with the production, although the singing is fine.


We discussed about this before. It's one of those avant-garde productions where the stage director has the final say. These types of weird stage productions happen so often. All I can hope for is the music itself gets done well by HIP bands, which most of the time, they are.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> We discussed about this before. It's one of those avant-garde productions where the stage director has the final say. These types of weird stage productions happen so often. All I can hope for is the music itself gets done well by HIP bands, which most of the time, they are.


I'm finishing it right now and quite liked it.
The Regietheatre bit didn't disturb me too much and the singing, orchestra, and conductor are all very good.
Andreas Scholl was sublime, and La Antonacci was attractive as usual.


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## Tony Vella (Aug 25, 2010)

Will no one say a kind word about Norma?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

AjayVee said:


> Will no one say a kind word about Norma?


Well, she slept with the enemy and wanted to kill her own kids.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I've always liked Germont. Probably I'm spoiled, given that the first Germont I heard on record, Sherrill Milnes, has an unusually sympathetic takes on the character, but in any case I honestly don't think Germont is a villain. I just think he's someone from a different generation, with "older" values, and that he judged Violetta harshly, without having met her. After he does meet her, it's clear that he admires her. And anyway, I don't feel you can really blame a person for living in his time. Further, I've never been able to understand why Germont is usually portrayed as ancient; I think he should be more middle-aged. I mean, Alfredo can't be more than 21, and people generally married and had children at younger ages back then! True, Alfredo has a sister, but if she's older than he is she can't be _that_ much older if she's just gotten engaged.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Favorite opera characters?
Male: The Grand Inquisitor (Don Carlo) ; Mefistofele (Mefistofele)
Female: Magda Sorel (The Consul) ; Minnie (La Fanciulla del West)


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## Divasin (Aug 8, 2014)

Another vote for Minnie in La Fanciulla del West and all those ladies with spunk...Susanna in Nozze di Figaro..especially Brunnhilde.

Has no one noticed Wotan has some relationship issues?? having abandoned or betrayed all the women in his life!!!:devil:


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

My favorite "good person" is Leonore in _Fidelio_ -- another one of those spunky ladies who doesn't spend the opera wringing her hands in dismay and isn't in love with some callow twit. That other gun-toting lady, Minnie, is a favorite good person as well. Among the "villains" I like Amneris and Count di Luna -- the first because she is very human and pays a high price for her failings (okay, Aida and Radames pay a much higher one); the second because he's so inept, with everything he does backfiring on him. (And he has that gorgeous aria, "_Il balen del suo sorriso_.")


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Favorite villains:
Iago runs away with it with Claggart not far behind


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm fond of Captain Vere from Billy Budd - useless though he is at protecting Billy from the long arm of the law.

And I love Leporello - he's another everyman character like Papageno, and there is nothing like a good catalogue song. The last one I saw at NZ opera had Leporello showing Elvira all the photos on an iPhone, and her face as he swiped away frantically was hilarious.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I have no idea if or when I may have posted to this thread before, but need to update. By far two of my very most favorite opera characters are (and they both are heroines):

Leonore (a.k.a. Fidelio) in Beethoven's Fidelio

Brunnhilde in Wagner's Ring

These two are among the greatest ladies in all of opera.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm no opera fan, but my sympathies lie with tragic, misunderstood outcast Peter Grimes.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Leporello from Don Giovanni. He gets to sing some terrific music and is loyal to his idiotic master.

Honorable mention: Peter Grimes from Peter Grimes. Misunderstood loner....like me!

Honorable mention: Zerlina from Don Giovanni. Two great arias.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Fiordiligi, but she spurns all my advances, alas.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> Fiordiligi, but she spurns all my advances, alas.


That's funny. I rejected Fiordiligi's advances.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of the opera characters recommended to me by President Trump is Baron Scarpia from Tosca, one of his role models.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Tristan and Isolde are my favorite characters...actually, in a way, I basically consider them to be one single character. Their personalities are extremely similar, especially later in the opera as they move closer and closer to their much-anticipated eternal union. I am in awe of the intensity of their passion, their all-consuming obsession with each other.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> That's funny. I rejected Fiordiligi's advances.


That's the best strategy for trying to attract a fictional character, I've heard.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Blancrocher said:


> That's the best strategy, I've heard.


I'm too busy posting trivial nonsense to reward passionate, incredibly sensual advances.

Perhaps another time, Fiordi.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

hpowders said:


> One of the opera characters recommended to me by President Trump is Baron Scarpia from Tosca, one of his role models.


Yikes! ____


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Leporello from Don Giovanni. He gets to sing some terrific music and is loyal to his idiotic master.
> 
> Honorable mention: Peter Grimes from Peter Grimes. Misunderstood loner....like me!
> 
> Honorable mention: Zerlina from Don Giovanni. Two great arias.


On the whole Zerlina is a very interesting character. She is not one of the main character, but she is the only worthy match for the Don. And, she also has some great music written for her.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bettina said:


> Tristan and Isolde are my favorite characters...actually, in a way, I basically consider them to be one single character. Their personalities are extremely similar, especially later in the opera as they move closer and closer to their much-anticipated eternal union. I am in awe of the intensity of their passion, their all-consuming obsession with each other.


Although they are alike in being consumed by their passion, and no doubt have a deep-seated similarity which accounts for their mutual fascination, I think they're rather interesting as individuals, certainly more so than most operatic lovers. Isolde is a royal, accustomed to command, extroverted, full of Irish fire (yes, give her red hair!), unwilling to submit passively to ill-treatment and cruel custom, ready to take revenge as passionately as she is to fall instantly in love or to die for it. Tristan is an introvert, silent and brooding, wrapped in a cloak of secret tragedy, on the nature of which he ruminates as the shepherd pipes a sad refrain. Isolde is no doubt fascinated by his remoteness, as he is brought out of himself by her flaming energy - opposites attract! - and they find common cause in the hope of union in some other reality in which their love is not crushed by the demands of a shallow, uncaring world.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Florestan said:


> Yikes! ____


I have to go with the flow.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Dongiovanni said:


> On the whole Zerlina is a very interesting character. She is not one of the main character, but she is the only worthy match for the Don. And, she also has some great music written for her.


Zerlina could have made me happy....very, very happy. I would have been hers after thirty seconds of either of her arias.


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Einstein.........


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Male: Mefistofele
Female: Butterfly


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## Amara (Jan 12, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> There are some operas that I find hard to watch because the characters are so unsympathetic. Pinkerton, the Duke of Mantua and Siegfried come to mind, but we won't go there again.
> 
> Others are plain dumb. I'm watching Otello at the moment and I keep wanting to shout "DON'T MENTION CASSIO" every time Desdemona hoves into view. Really she has the interpersonal skills of a sea-cucumber.
> 
> ...


Male character: Tolomeo from _Giulio Cesare_, although this probably has a lot to do with Christophe Dumaux's at times hilarious, at times chilling, at times sympathetic performance in the Met HD version. I've never seen a villain have so many shades and be so entertaining (he does flips!). He is just the ultimate in villainy, and yet he has a moment in this performance where he sheds tears for Cleopatra (even though he is the cause of her misery!). Perhaps the most genius thing this production does is have Tolomeo come back (as a corporeal ghost of sorts?) at the end, sporting a bullet hole in his head and demanding to be served champagne, for one last scene-stealing bit of comic brilliance. I have never been more entertained at an opera.

Female character: Abigaille from _Nabucco_. I could not believe how brilliant this character is and that she was written in 1841 (seems progressive to me! But if anyone has other examples of characters like her in opera/literature, please enlighten me!). Is George Lucas an opera fan? Because you could basically argue that Anakin Skywalker has the same storyline as Abigaille. She is born a slave, grows up, becomes ruler of an empire, and repents as she dies. I found it to be such a compelling (and possibly rare?) storyline for a woman to take control of an empire from a man, in this case, her supposed father.

Another pop culture icon character of recent times seems to mirror Abigaille. When Abigaille tears up the document that proves she is not Nabucco's real daughter, it reminds me of Cersei Lannister tearing up King Robert's document in front of Ned Stark. So, we've got a character who's Cersei Lannister and Darth Vader in one.

And then, like Darth Vader, Abigaille has a heartbreakingly moving change of heart at the end, asking forgiveness for her sins and dying. It's such a tremendous character journey, and even though for a time she was the "bad guy" I couldn't help but root for her a bit and be glad that she redeemed herself at the end. A brilliant character!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Violetta from La traviata and Don Carlo , well you guessed it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Yikes! ____


That's very clear. :angel:


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## VladaNS (May 24, 2017)

Scarpia in Tosca especially George Londons performances!


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## dillonp2020 (May 6, 2017)

Male: Cavaradossi
Female: Norma


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

VladaNS said:


> Scarpia in Tosca especially George Londons performances!


Favorite as in dramatically portrayed. Not, of course, favorite because of what a scum bag Scarpia is.


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## Jemarchesurtousleschemins (Apr 3, 2017)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think King Philip is a brute. OK, so he courts our sympathies by saying no-one loves him, but is it surprising - he's happy to put his son to death (as long as the church agrees), and I can't see how he gives Elisabetta any reason to love him, sending her friends home willy-nilly and accusing her of being a ***** when he knows perfectly well she was engaged to Carlos before he high-handedly changed his mind.


Don't forget the part where he's like "YOU FLIPPING CHEATED ON ME YOU WILL PAY" and then we find out that he was cheating on her...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

After a long time, I do add Lucia and Norma.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Favourite? Sir John


as I grow older I play with the idea of making him my role model. Tutto nel mondo è burla ... Tutti gabbati!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> Favourite? Sir John
> 
> as I grow older I play with the idea of making him my role model. Tutto nel mondo è burla ... Tutti gabbati!


Now that's a good one Belowpar, mind the dirty laundry basket though.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

The older (and apparently wiser) I get, the more I sympathise with Faust.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Don Fatale said:


> The older (and apparently wiser) I get, the more I sympathise with Faust.[/QU9OTE]
> 
> Perché? (Più 8).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

After watching I Pagliacci I do think Nedda is such a sweet role .


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Adding: Armida/ Rossini , such a demanding role for sopranos.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Favorites: Fidelio and Micaëla. Poor Micaëla, the only morally guided character in the whole shabang, and such a sweetheart. Not that Jose would've been a good match for her... :,(

Least Favorties: Duke from Rigoletto.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Favorites: Fidelio and Micaëla. Poor Micaëla, the only morally guided character in the whole shabang, and such a sweetheart. Not that Jose would've been a good match for her... :,(
> 
> Least Favorties: Duke from Rigoletto.


Are you sure, to me she's driven by José's mother.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Favorites: Fidelio and Micaëla. Poor Micaëla, the only morally guided character in the whole shabang, and such a sweetheart. Not that Jose would've been a good match for her... :,(
> 
> Least Favorties: Duke from Rigoletto.


Don´t you know that after Carmen have died Jose comes to Micaela to declare that Carmen is dead and then they sing a beautiful duet.
Otherwise I agree she is such a lovely girl I would rather have seen an opera about Micaela.


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## sacraselva (Aug 31, 2016)

If I have to pick only one favourite it has to be Norma.


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## Sound Of Silence (Jun 21, 2017)

I can't choose one. My favorites are Carmen, Violetta, Quenn of the night, Werther, Don Jose... The list goes like this


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## angelo (Jun 20, 2017)

Guatiero (il Pirata, Bellini): the true tenor: heroic, good ... and dumb
Rigoletto (Rigoletto, Verdi)
Donna Elvira (Don Giovanni, Mozart)


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

Carmen! Easy peasy...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

huntsman said:


> Carmen! Easy peasy...


Just one from all those hundreds of opera's


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

Ja - 

Mamascarlatti asked for Favourite Opera Character..

Which brings me to ask: Is she no longer around? Her account is still open, but I see she hasn't posted in one year....?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

huntsman said:


> Ja -
> 
> Mamascarlatti asked for Favourite Opera Character..
> 
> Which brings me to ask: Is she no longer around? Her account is still open, but I see she hasn't posted in one year....?


I think you better ask the mods that.


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## huntsman (Jan 28, 2013)

With 28k posts, I decided you were a Mod. 

No matter...


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