# So called "TRADITIONAL CUTS" in opera recordings..............................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

*So called "TRADITIONAL CUTS" in opera recordings..............................*

I hate them.

Which ones bother you the most?

Any you agree with?

thanks


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Which ones bother you the most?


That one in _Salome_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The ones in Rigoletto. I have the Serafin with Callas and the cuts are horrendous.

There are also cuts in The Guilini Figaro which are exasperating.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

So true.
I also hate the cuts made to Lucia.
Sooooooooo disfiguring.


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## Notung (Jun 12, 2013)

Any cuts make me squirm. That cut in the overture of furtwangler's '54 DG is inexplicable...


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The ones in Rigoletto. I have the Serafin with Callas and the cuts are horrendous.
> 
> There are also cuts in The Guilini Figaro which are exasperating.


Oh ok, but these two are still my two favourite recordings of both works. I'm not so hung up about cuts.

Oh, and a word about the title of this thread. They are called traditional, because that was the tradition when these recordings were made. The completists came along later. "So-called" because that is exactly what they were!


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

All of them. All cuts bother me. I can only forgive cuts if they're done by a small company on a small budget or a terrible time restraint.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The ridiculous cuts in Barber of Seville. such a shame


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I bought this new Tamerlano.










Then I found that due to the edition they are using, my very favourite aria in the whole opera, and possibily in the whole of opera, has been excised. Thank goodness I can still watch it on this DVD:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Lucia. 'Wolf's Crag Scene'


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I approve of cuts to make Handel operas a more manageable length. 4 hours of Handel is not the same as 4 hours of Wagner... and I love Handel.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

The Fontainebleau scene in Don Carlo.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

sospiro said:


> Lucia. 'Wolf's Crag Scene'


And Raimondo's aria.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

And choruses Act 1 and sextet.
man, do they butcher this opera.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Itullian said:


> So true.
> I also hate the cuts made to Lucia.
> Sooooooooo disfiguring.


Oh, I _can't stand_ those. The one that irritates me the most is the cutting of the repetition in the fast section of the Act II finale. Without that repetition, I find, the piece has no chance really to build momentum before the climax, which is Lucia's final high note.

In_ Rigoletto_, I don't mind so much if Rigoletto's solo version of "O veglia, O donna" (Act I, scene 2) is cut, because we hear it again when Gilda joins him minutes later. (The solo one sounds pretty hard to sing, which I assume is the reason it's usually cut.) But it doesn't make any sense to me to cut the Duke's cabaletta in Act II, as without it the scena seems really anti-climactic.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Itullian said:


> The ridiculous cuts in Barber of Seville. such a shame


The only traditional cut in _Barber of Seville_ that really bothers me is the Count's third aria. With that aria gone, the opera's ending seems far too abrupt. Another situation like that is in _I Puritani_, when Elvira's "O sento, mio bel angelo" is omitted.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I approve of cuts to make Handel operas a more manageable length. 4 hours of Handel is not the same as 4 hours of Wagner... and I love Handel.


Well then, on a CD cut the recit, not the most beautiful aria.

Personally I'm in the camp that feels that Wagner could have used a good editor. Give me a long Handel opera any day.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

mamascarlatti said:


> Well then, on a CD cut the recit, not the most beautiful aria.
> 
> Personally I'm in the camp that feels that Wagner could have used a good editor. Give me a long Handel opera any day.


Oh yeah? ............


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

On the other hand, I can't stand having the Leonora overture stuck in between the last two scenes of Fidelio. I realize that it is there to occupy the audience during the scene change, but Beethoven wanted no more than 7 seconds of silence before the finale. Anyway, when I watch the opera on DVD I always skip over it. Wish I could edit it out of the video.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

As for cuts I agree with, first on the list would be Marcellina's and Basilio's arias in _Le Nozze di Figaro_ -- IMO, they're downright silly and totally unnecessary.

I also agree with some of the traditional _Traviata_ cuts. I feel the Carlos Kleiber recording makes the best choices: cut the second verses of Violetta's two arias, cut the second verses of Alfredo's and Germont's cabalettas, and cut the repetitions in "Gran Dio, morir si giovane" in Act III.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Cuts the the theatre may be excusable to bring the opera to listenable length for the evening - some (as in Don Carlo) were made by composers. But surely not on recordings. There we can make our own cuts if necessary.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Cuts the the theatre may be excusable to bring the opera to listenable length for the evening - some (as in Don Carlo) were made by composers. But surely not on recordings. There we can make our own cuts if necessary.


With *Don Carlos*, the Abbado recording probably got it right, though it is not unfortunately the best sung version of the opera. What we basically get is Verdi's 5 Act version, with all the other stuff added as an appendix. Verdi himself approved more than one version of the opera, so what to include and what not to include is always going to be a problem. There is also a deal of material that Verdi himself excised, some of which found its way into the *Requiem*. I doubt Verdi expected any of this stuff to re-surface in any performance of *Don Carlo* otherwise he'd never have used it again.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Bellinilover said:


> Another situation like that is in _I Puritani_, when Elvira's "O sento, mio bel angelo" is omitted.


Although it sucks indeed, it's not really a cut. This fragment was added by Bellini for Malibran performance and whether it's included or not, is matter of inserting this extra addition or not rather than "cutting" original work.


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## peterb (Mar 7, 2014)

The phrase "cut" sort of implies that there are "definitive" versions of all of these works, which often -- usually -- isn't true. Operas (and symphonies - repetitions are often cut) are living performances, and authors, composers, and directors always tweak the script to match their intentions. Hamlet, for example, nearly always is performed with different cuts. If Shakespeare isn't immune from cuts (and he isn't), I don't see why anyone else should get their knickers in a twist over it.

To be clear, I think "I'm sad that they cut THIS THING THAT I THINK IS GREAT" is a sensible position. But "I hate all cuts, ever" is just the musical equivalent of being a hoarder.


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> As for cuts I agree with, first on the list would be Marcellina's and Basilio's arias in _Le Nozze di Figaro_ -- IMO, they're downright silly and totally unnecessary.


If you say so! Somehow, I don't think Mozart would have agreed with you!

I don't think operas should be edited by anyone but the composer, but then again I am a purist.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

peterb said:


> The phrase "cut" sort of implies that there are "definitive" versions of all of these works, which often -- usually -- isn't true. Operas (and symphonies - repetitions are often cut) are living performances, and authors, composers, and directors always tweak the script to match their intentions. Hamlet, for example, nearly always is performed with different cuts. If Shakespeare isn't immune from cuts (and he isn't), I don't see why anyone else should get their knickers in a twist over it.


Your Shakespeare comparison provides even better support for your argument than you offer here. _Hamlet_ existed in multiple printed and performance versions during and shortly after Shakespeare's time. The "complete," "uncut" _Hamlet_ we know today is actually a later conflation that would never have been seen or read during Shakespeare's own day.

Similarly, operas like Don Carlo(s) existed in multiple, composer-sanctioned versions during Verdi's own lifetime, making the notion of a single, definitive text impossibly problematic.


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## JohnGerald (Jul 6, 2014)

There is only one which I approve: if I never hear the "Rataplan" chorus from Forza again, I'll be a happy person. Otherwise I dislike any cuts: I want to hear ALL that a composer wrote in a given opera.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

JohnGerald said:


> There is only one which I approve: if I never hear the "Rataplan" chorus from Forza again, I'll be a happy person. Otherwise I dislike any cuts: I want to hear ALL that a composer wrote in a given opera.


Even the stuff he jettisoned. I love the way people say this, but if we were to hear _all_ the music Verdi at one time wrote for *Don Carlos*, for instance, it would not only make for a very long opera indeed, but also be a complete misrepresentation of his intentions.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I wouldn't mind in the least if they cut that "Fuoco di gioia" chorus in OTELLO. But I'm guessing they can't, because Iago has to have some time to talk to Rodrigo about his "plan."


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

JohnGerald said:


> There is only one which I approve: if I never hear the "Rataplan" chorus from Forza again, I'll be a happy person. Otherwise I dislike any cuts: I want to hear ALL that a composer wrote in a given opera.


This belongs in the "cuts that should be made" thread. I agree totally on this one.

Rata plan plan plan plan plan plan plan!

Bucking the trend here, I think more operas need more cuts. If I had the scissors I'd start with Carmen. Would be much better for opera newcomers with a bit of a trim.


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