# Vaughan-Williams' "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis"



## Guest (Mar 15, 2013)

I've mentioned this work on another thread. It's magnificent, if there's anybody here who hasn't heard it before (and lots will have). Not such a fan of the symphonies of V-W, but this piece is a masterwork.






It was probably *one of the last* of many in a long line of string 'serenades' going back to the late 19th century. It really has a "Countenance Anglaise"!!


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I absolutely adore this work. I like much of Vaughan-Williams, but this is probably my favorite piece. Does anyone know what Thomas Tallis work the theme comes from?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

"Tallis's original tune is in the Phrygian mode and was one of nine he contributed to the Psalter of 1567 for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Matthew Parker."

I believe it is commonly called the Third Mode Melody.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2013)

KenOC said:


> "Tallis's original tune is in the Phrygian mode and was one of nine he contributed to the Psalter of 1567 for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Matthew Parker."
> 
> I believe it is commonly called the Third Mode Melody.


3rd Mode? As in Dorian, Lydian, Phrygian, Mixolydian? I'm not sure I understand otherwise.

A friend of mine was a choirmaster of an exclusive boys high school in Sydney. One evening at a ceremony the boys were singing some Tallis and my friend was conducting, as usual. The school was full of rugby players, but they could also sing. The headmaster came up to my friend afterwards, commenting upon the performance, saying "No need to take it quite so seriously, old boy!".


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> 3rd Mode? As in Dorian, Lydian, Phrygian, Mixolydian? I'm not sure I understand otherwise.


My knowlege is quite exhausted, and maybe a bit more than that.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Not such a fan of the symphonies of V-W,


Shame on you CA I thought would have rated them highly :tiphat:


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm listening right now and I love it. Any more such pieces by large string orchestra?


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Two other pieces of English string music that are just about as good, but in different ways, are Elgar's Introduction and Allegro, and Tippett's Corelli Fantasia Concertante.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Andante said:


> Shame on you CA I thought would have rated them highly :tiphat:


Don't hit me please!

I have his "London" symphony and I quite like that one though, at times, it becomes a bit brash and brassy (maybe like the city itself?!).


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

GGluek said:


> Two other pieces of English string music that are just about as good, but in different ways, are Elgar's Introduction and Allegro, and Tippett's Corelli Fantasia Concertante.


I don't know the Tippett. Thanks for the, er, tip-pett!! I adore the Elgar Introduction and Allegro, especially the one recorded by Sir Adrian Boult. Those excruciatingly beautiful opening thirds, descending!! OMG.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

DeepR said:


> I'm listening right now and I love it. Any more such pieces by large string orchestra?


Actually, I think the VW Thomas Tallis is double string chamber ensemble - exact permutation, look up Google. Sorry, I've just forgotten. Seniors' moment!!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> 3rd Mode? As in Dorian, Lydian, Phrygian, Mixolydian? I'm not sure I understand otherwise.


1: C - Ionian
2: D - Dorian
3: E - Phrygian
4: F - Lydian
5: G - Mixolydian
6: A - Aeolian

And theoretically, at least...
_7: B - Locrian_


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I don't know the Tippett. Thanks for the, er, tip-pett!! I adore the Elgar Introduction and Allegro, especially the one recorded by Sir Adrian Boult. Those excruciatingly beautiful opening thirds, descending!! OMG.


The Barbirolli recording (on EMI) which also includes the Tallis Fantasia and a number of other British string warhorses is also really good.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Don't hit me please!
> 
> I have his "London" symphony and I quite like that one though, at times, it becomes a bit brash and brassy (maybe like the city itself?!).


I think the 5th is the closest to the Tallis Fantasia in spirit.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

George Dyson´s "Concerto da Chiesa" has some of the same traits:


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> 1: C - Ionian
> 2: D - Dorian
> 3: E - Phrygian
> 4: F - Lydian
> ...


Thanks for that brush-up on music. I haven't touched this stuff for over 20 years but I love the sound of the modes. Can you please explain a Phrygian cadence? I've always had trouble with that.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Thanks for that brush-up on music. I haven't touched this stuff for over 20 years but I love the sound of the modes. Can you please explain a Phrygian cadence? I've always had trouble with that.


A phrygian cadence moves from iv6 to V, creating a half-step motion downwards in the bass to the root. (I just had to look that up now...although I'd come across the term before.)

Here's an illustration, in A minor:








A little off topic, but I find locrian mode very interesting, because its tonic chord is a diminished triad, so it's hard to stabilize normally. The best way to do it is to emphasize the half step downward from the flattened second degree, in lieu of either a leading tone or a fifth relation.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Thank you so much for that Mahlerian. I'll go straight to the piano with it. 

Another thing I couldn't quite grapple with; when did music move from modality to diatonic, triadic sonority. Which composer? Monteverdi is still modal. But Vivaldi is mostly tonal. What happened? I was meant to understand this by inference as a Musicology student but this never happened. So I'll ask all you wizz kids!!

I'm all enthusiastic and want to start harmony studies again, having dropped the formal study after Grade 7 Musicianship/Theory. But it was enough to study musicology and analyze scores, but now I've forgotten most of it, sadly. "Use it or lose it" is the thing which occurs here!!


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> I absolutely adore this work. I like much of Vaughan-Williams, but this is probably my favorite piece. Does anyone know what Thomas Tallis work the theme comes from?


Here is a nice recording of all nine Tallis' psalms, starting with the third, the one used by RVW.






Best regards, Dr


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

GreenMamba said:


> I think the 5th is the closest to the Tallis Fantasia in spirit.


I'd also suggest the second movement of the 3rd (Pastoral) symphony.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Fantasia is a great work, yet I like The Lark even more.

Bottom line: Vaughan-Williams has lots to offer.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2013)

Do you know R V-W wrote film music?


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> Do you know R V-W wrote film music?


Is that not common knowledge?  .. He wrote music to several films, not least to Scott of the Antarctic (1948) that is the base for the seventh symphony! And Chndos has released three volumes of his film music!
Some of it is quite good! 

/ptr


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2013)

ptr said:


> Is that not common knowledge?  .. He wrote music to several films, not least to Scott of the Antarctic (1948) that is the base for the seventh symphony! And Chndos has released three volumes of his film music!
> Some of it is quite good!
> 
> I guess it's common knowledge for V-W enthusiasts. He was an interesting composer and he pretty much lived in the shadow of Elgar.


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I guess it's common knowledge for V-W enthusiasts. He was an interesting composer and he pretty much lived in the shadow of Elgar.


Sorry if I sound a bit Brash o), but I was a bit unsure if I should interpret your post as a question or a statement?
That Elgar shadow was a sad part of his life even If I think he fended quite well for himself! Remember watching a documentary (BBC?) on telly about RVW in the late seventies, the old man filmed in black&white, sitting in his comfy tweeds talking about his music and past, fascinated me totally and made me buy the Previn Cycle of the complete Symphonies, but it was his smooth dialect and way of expressing himself gave me a role model of how it should sound when I speak English! (I miserably fail of course, but I still try my best..  )

/ptr


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The Fantasia is a great piece of music. The best recording for me is the one with Andrew Davis which has with it the Lark Ascending with superb violin playing from Tasmin Little.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The Fantasia is a great piece of music. The best recording for me is the one with Andrew Davis which has with it the Lark Ascending with superb violin playing from Tasmin Little.


The "Lark" is deeply touching and quite beautiful. And, who'd have thought.....written in the 20th century - if I'm not mistaken.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

My Dad was a bit of a fan of Tasmin Little...so for his 80-something birthday, I wrote to Tasmin asking for a signed photo for him and she very kindly obliged...so I think I'll shift-over to the current listening thread and give one of her recordings a whirl?!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> ptr said:
> 
> 
> > Is that not common knowledge?  .. He wrote music to several films, not least to Scott of the Antarctic (1948) that is the base for the seventh symphony! And Chndos has released three volumes of his film music!
> ...


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

moody said:


> I can't agree with the Elgar's shadow thing---too different.


I don't see it as a musical shadow, but more as a shadow of some one more established that get all the credit? (might be wrong)



> Funny thing is that I can't take "The Lark",probably because it appears on the ghastly Classic FM three times each day.
> Well worth trying is his Serenade To Music for soloists and orchestra it is a very attractive piece. Boult and Bernstein have both recorded it.


Can understand the Lark aversion, still is a pretty little ditty, love the Serenade to Music!

/ptr


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ptr said:


> Is that not common knowledge?  .. He wrote music to several films, not least to Scott of the Antarctic (1948) that is the base for the seventh symphony! And Chndos has released three volumes of his film music!
> Some of it is quite good!
> 
> /ptr


He used parts of the "Scott" music in his seventh symphony.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> The "Lark" is deeply touching and quite beautiful. And, who'd have thought.....written in the 20th century - if I'm not mistaken.


Indeed! :clap:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ptr said:


> I don't see it as a musical shadow, but more as a shadow of some one more established that get all the credit? (might be wrong)
> 
> Can understand the Lark aversion, still is a pretty little ditty, love the Serenade to Music!
> 
> /ptr


Don't forget that Elgar was 20 years older,so he had a head start.
Elgar seemed to personify England but V-W never intended that. I used to see him conduct a, nice shambling man and very popular with the audience.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2013)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> I guess it's common knowledge for V-W enthusiasts. He was an interesting composer and he pretty much lived in the shadow of Elgar.


That! as the man with a gammy leg said "is a matter of opinion"


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## echmain (Jan 18, 2013)

I love the Tallis Fantasia too. 

I'll always associate it with the scene from Master and Commander where they had to cut that kid loose with the wreckage of the ship.

A great choice of music for that scene.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2013)

Andante said:


> That! as the man with a gammy leg said "is a matter of opinion"


My only 'source' for this is my own intuition and understanding, as well as a documentary I recently saw about Elgar. V-W had 20 more years of composing after the death of Elgar but the latter composer was a powerful figure in Britain because he was believed to represent the epitome of "Englishness". It would be hard to find a spot for one-self alongside that and V-W was very interested in the English musical heritage.

I have to say I'm not a real fan of Elgar. His "Introduction and Allegro", "Sea Pictures", "Enigma Variations" and a symphony or two are extremely beautiful and I love these. But don't mention the war, er, I mean "Cello Concerto". Awful!!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

CountenanceAnglaise said:


> My only 'source' for this is my own intuition and understanding, as well as a documentary I recently saw about Elgar. V-W had 20 more years of composing after the death of Elgar but the latter composer was a powerful figure in Britain because he was believed to represent the epitome of "Englishness". It would be hard to find a spot for one-self alongside that and V-W was very interested in the English musical heritage.
> 
> I have to say I'm not a real fan of Elgar. His "Introduction and Allegro", "Sea Pictures", "Enigma Variations" and a symphony or two are extremely beautiful and I love these. But don't mention the war, er, I mean "Cello Concerto". Awful!!


You apparently haven't read back through the thread,I've already said this.
Also I'm dismayed to read your comment about the 'cello concert because along with Dvorak's it is the best of all.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

I'll second any praise given to this remarkable work. It is one of my absolute favourite works of any kind, by anyone.



mmsbls said:


> I absolutely adore this work. I like much of Vaughan-Williams, but this is probably my favorite piece. Does anyone know what Thomas Tallis work the theme comes from?


I was just checking this out recently. Here:


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> A little off topic, but I find locrian mode very interesting, because its tonic chord is a diminished triad, so it's hard to stabilize normally. The best way to do it is to emphasize the half step downward from the flattened second degree, in lieu of either a leading tone or a fifth relation.


Of course in strict counterpoint, based on voice leading, the 'tonic chord' could be (in B Locrian) B - D - G 'instead of a fifth there is a sixth'. The Locrian has practically no tonal identity, we are almost bound to listen to 'Locrian progressions' as collections of borrowed chords. Horizontally it's less problematic and certainly has it's own flavour. I think there's some Jewish music in the Locrian.

An interesting sidenote is that the Locrian backwards has the same arrangement of intervals as the Lydian, the same happens with the Phrygian and Ionian, Myxolydian and Aeolian. The Dorian backwards gives us the Dorian again. This can be useful when melodically modulating and when working with palindromes.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

What an interesting thread this is. I love the Tallis Fantasy.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

He also made a Fantasia on Christmas Carols which, although bares little relation to the Tallis, it is worth a mention.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

MoonlightSonata said:


> What an interesting thread this is. I love the Tallis Fantasy.


I shall second that.
The Tallis Fantasia and The Lark Ascending are firm favourites with my wife, and as she has impeccable taste, I shall accept no argument


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> He also made a Fantasia on Christmas Carols which, although bares little relation to the Tallis, it is worth a mention.


Worth a spin if only for the major mode version of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen".


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> He also made a Fantasia on Christmas Carols which, although bares little relation to the Tallis, it is worth a mention.


And there's also the _Fantasia on Greensleeves_, which is jolly nice too.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

A melody in that work (which doesn't seem to be part of _Greensleeves_ itself) was used by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer (or some other progressive rock group). It doesn't sound out of place at all. I heard the pop song long before I heard the RVW _Fantasia_, and was surprised to hear that melody in the RVW work.



MoonlightSonata said:


> And there's also the _Fantasia on Greensleeves_, which is jolly nice too.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

spradlig said:


> A melody in that work (which doesn't seem to be part of _Greensleeves_ itself) was used by Emerson, Lake, and Palmer (or some other progressive rock group). It doesn't sound out of place at all. I heard the pop song long before I heard the RVW _Fantasia_, and was surprised to hear that melody in the RVW work.


How unusual. What was the name of the song?


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

Besides Lark and Tallis, I have to also add Dives & Lazarus. I will never forget the first time I heard Dives. Back in the '70s, I borrowed a tape of RVW from my submarine skipper. I preceded to do some work in the ship's office when suddenly this heartbreakingly lovely melody came out of my stereo speakers. I stopped everything, sat there and nearly cried at the sadness of the music. To this day, this music still has the same effect on me.


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## PeteW (Dec 20, 2014)

yes, both marvellous pieces. Heard them first at university 30 years ago and loved them ever since. Not heard the Tasmin Little yet, but intend to do so. I think she had also brought out a new recording.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

4 year old thread? Yeah, why not?

Been a while since I listened to this work and caught some of it on a local radio broadcast, it sounded exceptional. I thought I would listen to the whole thing later in the day when I had more time. So, I hunted up a recording later on and it didn't sound the same. Not exceptional. So I found another, then another. None sounded like what I had heard on the radio. Finally I looked on the radio station website. It was this one.









Yeah, baby. That's the one!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

^ Better than this one? I doubt it!


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

I love this piece, and thought that I had heard a number of fine recordings and live performances. Then a couple of years ago, I heard the piece performed as it was intended: in a cathedral, with the string orchestra divided and well separated, and the quartet placed to one side. It was superb.


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## distantprommer (Sep 26, 2011)

I seem to recall that back in the late 50s or early 60s, the Tallis Fantasia was used in a film, a full length travel documentary. I also remember seeing this film a number of times just for the music, not knowing what it was at the time. It left a deep impression. Naturally, hearing the actual Tallis Fantasia for the first time, years later, produced a happy 'Eureka' moment for me.


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## JosefinaHW (Nov 21, 2015)

As far as I remember, the first time I heard this piece was in the movie _Master and Commander_. It is a deeply touching work no matter how you first encounter it, but the combination of the powerful images of the movie and the music really enhanced my love of the music.


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