# Contemplative music



## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

I have recently came across the reference to so called holy (spiritual) minimalism (or Neo-Contemplative music). I do like the very "theory" behind it, i.e. the idea of music as a vehicle for contemplation. It also fits with my earlier sympathy for medieval and renaissance religious music. I have already tried some music by Pärt, Górecki or Tavener and I will surely investigate it in a bit more depth.

What do you think about the idea of music as a vehicle for contemplation? Do you have any music or composers to recommend?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Daimonion said:


> I have recently came across the reference to so called holy (spiritual) minimalism (or Neo-Contemplative music). I do like the very "theory" behind it, i.e. the idea of music as a vehicle for contemplation. It also fits with my earlier sympathy for medieval and renaissance religious music. I have already tried some music by Pärt, Górecki or Tavener and I will surely investigate it in a bit more depth.
> 
> What do you think about the idea of music as a vehicle for contemplation? Do you have any music or composers to recommend?


So the traditionalists can now say "Okay, we all hated Minimalism and those Indian-influenced hippies who wrote it, but now that the Berlin wall's down, we can be religious again and put the "God" back into Western music, by using the "spirituality" of Minimalism as a vehicle for Catholicism!" :lol:


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Try Rachmaninoff's Vesper! Especially live in a big Cathedral with a choir that knows how to work the acoustics, it is just an incredible experience!

/ptr


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

I would be very careful to use the word "spiritual" because many people may, and probably will, understand it quite narrowly with this or that religion in mind. What I personally would like to see in this music is the concept that it has an influence on (or is an expression of) something deeper in a person, something deeper than "music only".

Cf. the idea that the music you find pleasure in may tell us something, or so I suspect, about the person you are.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

The arietta of Beethoven's Opus 111 and the slow movement of the Hammerklavier sonata not only provide good music for contemplation, but lead one toward answers also.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Daimonion said:


> Do you have any music or composers to recommend?


Brian Eno - Ambient Four. Highly contemplative... therapeutic even. Highly recommended!


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

GGluek said:


> the slow movement of the Hammerklavier sonata


Ah! Beat me to the punch! 

RD


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)




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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I grew up attending and participating-in the Roman Catholic Mass throughout the Liturgical year. I used to love singing-along in Latin, so that is why I occasionally enjoy playing some cds that I have of Gregorian chant.
A sung mass can be a tremendous experience...I have been very moved by hearing such, in places like Chartres Cathedral...in a Cistercian monastery that I used to visit in Leicestershire, or in a Ukrainian church in Manchester, where a Ukrainian friend of mine at the time, took me along one Sunday morning, to hear the Mass. The singing was quite thrilling.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Daimonion said:


> something deeper than "music only".


is there something deeper?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Daimonion said:


> I would be very careful to use the word "spiritual" because many people may, and probably will, understand it quite narrowly with this or that religion in mind. What I personally would like to see in this music is the concept that it has an influence on (or is an expression of) something deeper in a person, something deeper than "music only".
> 
> Cf. the idea that the music you find pleasure in may tell us something, or so I suspect, about the person you are.


I would also question the use of the term "minimalism" because those same people may associate it with something non-Catholic and Eastern.

"Spiritual" for many people is a universal term, meaning every person's personal connection to the sacred, whatever form that may take. This is an inclusive "inter-faith" way of using the term.

If a person's definition of "spiritual" is tied to exclusionary or singular dogma, then it means what they want it to mean and invalidates other definitions.

The idea of "music for contemplation" is not new, and this is what Gregorian chant is based on, as well as North Indian raga.

Brian Eno and some of the things in electronica which were happening in Britain are tied to, or sprang from the same mold as the Minimalism of Steve Reich and those others.

Arvo Part and Taverner are coming from a different, more traditional religious perspective, so while not confusing the two, yes, I think they are all valid expressions of "music for sacred contemplation" since they invite us to refrain from struggle with following "narratives" and encourage the calming of the mind. But I don't think you have to be a "believing Catholic" to experience its benefits, as I was told once on this forum.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

My question here is what is meant by "contemplation"?

When I listen to music (as opposed to just hearing it) if I'm contemplating anything other that what's going on in the music itself, then I'm distracted from the music and typically when the contemplation ends I realize I've just missed the entire segment of the symphony or quartet, etc. that transpired while the contemplation was in progress.

If we're talking here about music that inspires contemplation of non-musical or "spiritual" matters does this happen while the music is playing or afterwards? If it's while the music is playing, then for me we're talking about background music which to me is like wallpaper.

Just wondering...


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

KRoad said:


> Brian Eno - Ambient Four. Highly contemplative... therapeutic even. Highly recommended!


Yes! And lots of other ambient music.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

The answer might be within you. Minimalist music is similiar to art house films that confront you with long-held shotsof not much happening. You are given time, you are not reduced to reacting to a steady stream of impulses, a long-held shot is an invitation to look into yourself. As is Spiegel im Spiegel or Music for 18 musicians.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2013)

deggial said:


> is there something deeper?


Exactly.

Behind all threads of this sort is the idea that music is somehow not good by itself and can be validated only by being used for something else.

What I object to the most is this: "music as a vehicle."

Instruments as vehicles, sure! Vehicles for making music!!:lol:


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

some guy said:


> Behind all threads of this sort is the idea that music is somehow not good by itself and can be validated only by being used for something else. What I object to the most is this: "music as a vehicle."


Hm, I think I understand some of your worries. What I had in mind is that music, also when it is taken as an aim in itself or even especially when it is considered as such, can have some additional worthwhile benefits.

Compare gardening. When you work in your garden, you are obviously focused on your plants (you are fully attentive to them and one can say that it is a state of mind proper to contemplation, being fully present in what you are doing) and don't think about anything else (including any potential benefits and side-effects of gardening). Still, however, your attentive gardening can enhance your character traits such as ability of caring, peace of mind, or patience.
The same applies to children's playing - they play just "for fun" but it still has a lot of beneficial effects on their development.

I am not sure (I am a newbie at classical music) of this, but I suspect that what I call contemplation of music could be called just "active listening" by many of you.

All the best!


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

deggial said:


> is there something deeper?


It is not me to answer. All I can say is that the latter certainly depends on your own understanding of music. The deeper this understanding is (the more you are able to find _in_ music), the less probable is that you will find something _other_ that is deeper.

Music, in short, can be(come) something more than "music only"


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

Andolink said:


> My question here is what is meant by "contemplation"?
> 
> When I listen to music (as opposed to just hearing it) if I'm contemplating anything other that what's going on in the music itself, then I'm distracted from the music and typically when the contemplation ends I realize I've just missed the entire segment of the symphony or quartet, etc. that transpired while the contemplation was in progress.
> 
> ...


My idea of contemplation is taken from what some monks, including both Buddhist and Christian ones, say and additionally from what psychology (Csikszentmihalyi) calls "flow". The most central thing in such contemplation is being attentive and present in what you are doing (Whatever it is. It can be dish washing, for instance). When you're contemplating music you should be fully focused on the latter.


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I would also question the use of the term "minimalism" because those same people may associate it with something non-Catholic and Eastern.
> 
> "Spiritual" for many people is a universal term, meaning every person's personal connection to the sacred, whatever form that may take. This is an inclusive "inter-faith" way of using the term.
> 
> If a person's definition of "spiritual" is tied to exclusionary or singular dogma, then it means what they want it to mean and invalidates other definitions.


I'm not competent to define musical minimalism. Still, however, I do like the answer offered by Andreas.

For "spiritual" I would be happy to understand it as broadly as possible, including all that is connected to the sacred but also many things which are not explicitly (intentionally) connected to the latter. I can imagine, for example, a non-religious composer who works in a way that I would call spiritual (because of the depth, personal-involvement and authenticity of his/her work).

This broad understanding obviously include both Gregorian (and Orthodox) chants and renaissance religious polyphony (with which I am very pleased) and New Age minimalism (about which I am _personally_ not that happy, but which still qualify).

Spirituality and/or contemplation in the way I would like to use it is not about the kind of content referred to (including whether it is religious or not) but about the depth and seriousness of personal involvement.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Daimonion said:


> The most central thing in such contemplation is being attentive and present in what you are doing


by that definition any music you really enjoy at the moment can feel contemplative.


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

And so have I dominated the thread


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## Daimonion (Apr 22, 2012)

"by that definition any music you really enjoy at the moment can feel contemplative."

I am not sure if enjoyment is all that would be required but in general I would tend to agree...


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Daimonion said:


> My idea of contemplation is taken from what some monks, including both Buddhist and Christian ones, say and additionally from what psychology (Csikszentmihalyi) calls "flow". The most central thing in such contemplation is being attentive and present in what you are doing (Whatever it is. It can be dish washing, for instance). When you're contemplating music you should be fully focused on the latter.


Yes, it is something like self-forgetfullness. That is, disappearing by becoming (one with) the task at hand. Because such tasks don't ask anything of us that refers to who we are but only to our mental and/or physical capabilities. Solving crossword-puzzles, playing video games, etc.


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## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

Daimonion said:


> My idea of contemplation is taken from what some monks, including both Buddhist and Christian ones, say and additionally from what psychology (Csikszentmihalyi) calls "flow". The most central thing in such contemplation is being attentive and present in what you are doing (Whatever it is. It can be dish washing, for instance). When you're contemplating music you should be fully focused on the latter.


I've found myself in this place while performing mindless tasks while listening to music. The music seemed to enhance whatever I was doing (if I recall it was trimming the bushes around the front porch). I don't even think it was classical music either...but oh well. Music almost always puts me at a peace that I have not managed to find in many other things. Certain pieces of classical (and non-classical) music make me feel at an inner peace that could be somewhat "spiritual" if I allow myself to focus solely on the music. Getting "chills" externally from music may also be a sign that you are somewhat deeper connected to the piece than others.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Different kinds of music require different efforts from the listener. In a Beethoven symphony, we are _more expected_ to follow a development, consciously and actively, but this does not exclude Beethoven's music from being a spiritually uplifting experience.

By contrast, Hildegard von Bingen's music is more specifically designed and intended to create a contemplative mood by being simpler and more "static" harmonically. In fact, the Church considered chant to be "actual prayer" which affected the singers, and thus by "contact-high" draw the listener in to this sacred space...So we must inquire, or infer what the _intent_ of the composer or music is.

Tone-centric music (Gregorian chant, ragas, "drone" music) tends to focus the mind into an inner subjective state because it has no distracting harmonic movement. In this sense, it is allowing us to turn our focus inward, "away" from concentrating outwardly on modulations, crescendos, musical developments which require sustained attention.



Andolink said:


> My question here is what is meant by "contemplation"?


A relaxing of the "tickertape" stream of thoughts of the mind. This "sacred" music is designed for contemplation of the sacred state of being we are all in, and which this music tries to magnify.



Andolink said:


> When I listen to music (as opposed to just hearing it) if I'm contemplating anything other that what's going on in the music itself, then I'm distracted from the music and typically when the contemplation ends I realize I've just missed the entire segment of the symphony or quartet, etc. that transpired while the contemplation was in progress.


This describes absent-mindedness, or "distraction" from an intended task. If the music is intended and requires that one listen with concentrated effort, then, yes, you have been distracted from its intended purpose.



Andolink said:


> If we're talking here about _music that inspires contemplation of non-musical or "spiritual" matters_ does this happen while the music is playing or afterwards?


It happens while the music is playing. The music is used to achieve a "state of being" which is called "sacred."

I question your separation of music from the "spiritual or sacred." Western music, and all Western art, emerged from a "spiritual" base, intent, and use in rituals of Easter, etc.

Music and sound, especially sustained tones or rhythms, have always been used to reach states of inner peace, or "ecstatic" states, as the Moroccan musicians of Joujouka do. This is achieved through repetition of tones or rhythm.

Steve Reich knew this when he went to Africa to actually observe and participate in drumming rituals. He was in search of "the sacred" mysteries of music, as was Terry Riley (who studied singing with Pran Nath) and Philip Glass (who studied with Ravi Shankar).

...And as is Arvo Pärt, now that he can practice his religion freely, without fear of the oppressive Soviet regime which has been fragmented.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Quote.."Getting "chills" externally from music may also be a sign that you are somewhat deeper connected to the piece than others"


..or that you needed to select some warmer underwear, OboeKnight?...particularly if trimming around your front bushes!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

some guy said:


> Behind all threads of this sort is the idea that music is somehow not good by itself and can be validated only by being used for something else...What I object to the most is this: "music as a vehicle."...Instruments as vehicles, sure! Vehicles for making music!!:lol:


Music is "just sound," so in this sense, you are correct, and in agreement with John Cage. But "art" involves more than just formal elements, no matter what medium we are talking about.

Art is "meaning," which is conveyed by a formal medium, be it music or painting. Art has a meaning in our culture and history.

Of course, a piece of music, or a painting, should be good "by itself," but most all of it has meanings and intents which are "agreed-on" universals derived from being human, or lie outside formal objectivity.

Thus, music is a "vehicle" for expressing and communicating our shared Humanity. Even when it is not intended to do this, we tend to put it there anyway. We can be moved by nature.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

JCarmel said:


> Quote.."Getting "chills" externally from music may also be a sign that you are somewhat deeper connected to the piece than others"
> 
> ..or that you needed to select some warmer underwear, OboeKnight?...particularly if trimming around your front bushes!


Watch out for garden snakes. It may be the Kundalini...


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Kundalini is defined online as 'a force rising-up from the base of the spine'...obviously OboeKnight, turn-off the electric power and use hand shears, instead?!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Daimonion said:


> It also fits with my earlier sympathy for medieval and renaissance religious music. I have already tried some music by Pärt, Górecki or Tavener and I will surely investigate it in a bit more depth.
> 
> What do you think about the idea of music as a vehicle for contemplation? Do you have any music or composers to recommend?


I think we're cut from the same cloth. I became weary with Contemporary Christian music because it dwelt too much on the surface, and I became drawn to sacred classical music because of its transcendence, especially pre-Baroque music, how it could be both in time and out of time.

As far as contemplation, which for me means being drawn into what the composer is presenting, both musically and textually, so I am completely involved in what is being presented, one piece which comes to mind is Haydn's Seven Last Words, especially the string quartet version. He brings you not only into the music but the emotions behind the music; in a sense, you're not just hearing a piece but experiencing the events. Another is Bach's St. Matthew Passion.


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## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

JCarmel said:


> Kundalini is defined online as 'a force rising-up from the base of the spine'...obviously OboeKnight, turn-off the electric power and use hand shears, instead?!


But...hand shears require actual physical effort!!! Maybe you are right though....I probably shouldn't use the electric power in the rain...


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## Praeludium (Oct 9, 2011)

This first piece I thought of :


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I think it is possible to produce music, or sonic ambience rather, that is intended to enhance focus or mood. I have no problem with this any more than I have a problem differentiating between Picasso's Guernica and wallpaperm and all levels of design and creativity in between. To say music or sound is or uis not one thing or another is pretty limiting. 

For me, I enjoy a stream of so called dark ambient electronica, mostly swishing white noisey things, crickets, people mumbling and chanting in the distance. I play this at night in an effort to enhance my dreams. Sometimes it seems to work, but it's hard to tell.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Manxfeeder said:


> I think we're cut from the same cloth. I became weary with Contemporary Christian music because it dwelt too much on the surface...


I became weary with Contemporary Christian music when it began to sound like Steely Dan. :lol:


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## LauraSiersema (Jul 19, 2013)

Hello--

My name is Laura Siersema.

I love these descriptions of music you mention in your post. Without trying, without realizing, that's the way I approach composing my own music. And it's the reason I'm responding to you!

Hope you don't mind a self referencing reply, but so many others have told me that my music is "contemplative", "neoclassical", that I thought I should offer you links to my work. I just posted my first thread here introducing_ Talon of the Blackwater_, my last album.

Here are 2 versions of "Along the Fenway", one live, with my trio , the other with Eugene Friesen on cello, from the album:


__
https://soundcloud.com/laura-siersema%2Ftalon-of-the-blackwater-along-the-fenway






Sincerely,
Laura


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Try J. Haydn's Seven Last Words, this music was especially made for contemplation.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

some guy said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Behind all threads of this sort is the idea that music is somehow not good by itself and can be validated only by being used for something else.
> 
> ...


If I could afford to give you a cash prize for this entry, I would. 
...as if the medium were a sledge one could pile things onto and drag around from town to town.

Bravo.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

PetrB said:


> If I could afford to give you a cash prize for this entry, I would.
> Bravo.


Or a vehicle! .


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Outside the various proscriptions from this cult, that sect, etc. "Contemplative" is whatever floats your boat.

I've always thought of it as having a more static quality which allows the listener some time, and room, to just be without having to think about more obvious harmonic change, harmonic movement, specific 'tunes' or motifs, etc. In other words, simple or ultra "sophisticated," it is music somewhat stripped bare. (A listener can find that quality in repertoire from across the ages, Gregorian chant, certain movements of classical pieces from later eras, and through to some "minimalist" and "new-age" pieces,

But, it really is "whatever floats your boat," i.e. works for you into aiding and abetting you toward that particular state.

Pieces which are, no matter how texturally busy, more of a dialogue of stasis, or slow change, oddly enough seem to promote a calming trance-like effect, or conversely, 'ecstasis,' quite well.

Charles Ives ~ The unanswered Question
John Adams ~ Common Tones in Simple Time
Jonathan Harvey ~ Tranquil abiding
Robert Moran ~ Requiem; Chant du Cygne
Morton Feldman ~ Piano and String Quartet

...to name but five which 'do it for me.'

Arvo Part et alia, to me, reek of direct "Christian musical association" i.e. they go straight to older modes and procedures which make me want to call "Spiritual Minimalism" more "Neomedievalism" -- and I find it lacking, like a banquet table set with a white tablecloth, but there is no food, just salt and sugar (maybe that is the stripped-down monk-like aesthetic which I do not 'get'  

For me it is horridly self-conscious and reactionary "spiritualism" via religion having been banned in now free eastern Europe (which was once under the old Soviet Regime). 

Part's "Cantus in memoriam Benjamin Britten" is to me incredibly dull, nothing but descending modal scales, presented descending in step-wise series, canonic or not. It is at least nothing more than piece of 'effect' - and is, little that is there, fresh only once. 

For some, a drone piece by La Monte Young could be just the thing.

The joke about the category Spiritual Minimalism are the sundry composers lumped under that tag, including the tourist post-card of cliche 'church ala Hollywood" sound of Alan Hovhaness' hymning


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## rborganist (Jan 29, 2013)

Try the music of Hildegard of Bingen; it is very serene and promotes contemplation. Some of her music is perhaps less specifially religious than Gregorian Chant or much mediaeval music. Look her up; she was a Renaissance woman before the Renaissance (an oxymoron, I know, but she did indeed have many talents).


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Weston said:


> I think it is possible to produce music, or sonic ambience rather, that is intended to enhance focus or mood. I have no problem with this any more than I have a problem differentiating between Picasso's Guernica and wallpaperm and all levels of design and creativity in between. To say music or sound is or uis not one thing or another is pretty limiting.
> 
> For me, I enjoy a stream of so called dark ambient electronica, mostly swishing white noisey things, crickets, people mumbling and chanting in the distance. I play this at night in an effort to enhance my dreams. Sometimes it seems to work, but it's hard to tell.


Atmospheric music can obviously be effective, but I believe it needs an intensity/concentration and to at least have some kind of minimal development or journey if it's of any real length. Performance and arrangement can enhance that. As with any genre lesser examples which are likely to be less universally popular but which get hyped are likely to give it a bad name.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Great "atmospheric music" is IMO never pure repetition, as in the exact same loop being copy/pasted.... although it may seem like that on the surface. It's subtleties and different layers that give this music a sort of organic quality and make it interesting to listen to. There doesn't have to be development or a destination, it's just there.

Somebody mentioned Ambient 4 - On Land by Brian Eno. The last piece of that album is a good example of what I mean.

Dunwich Beach, Autumn, 1960


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## Selby (Nov 17, 2012)

Two words: Alan Hovhaness.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

I thought all good music was?


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

DeepR said:


> It's subtleties and different layers that give this music a sort of organic quality and make it interesting to listen to. There doesn't have to be development or a destination, it's just there.


When I mentioned development and journey I also meant organic growing quality, because that is still moving somewhere. I can like some Eno but much of his music doesn't have a gripping intensity that I think this kind of music can need and his musical ideas can sound a bit dull to me at times as well.


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