# What makes a composer identifiable?



## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Some composers, like Beethoven and Mozart are identifiable within a few measures, even if you don't know the piece (or don't remember it). An exception would be Mozart's Jupiter, which sounds an awful lot like Beethoven. Bach is another.

Can anyone recommend a text book that mike speak to this? Certainly the person behind PDQ Bach was a genius at this. And I heard that one of the major music schools (Julliard?) used to, but no longer does, require a class where students were supposed to write music "in the style of." So the knowledge is out there. A lot of it is orchestration, I'm guessing. But other stuff too.

I've been wistful about finding books on the subject for decades, but no look.

tia
las


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

A composer is identifiable because he/she has style!


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

What constitutes style? How is one style different from another? That's my question.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Whatever Beethoven did to formulate his musical identity in the symphonic form was obviously adopted by many subsequent orchestral composers. You can hear Ludwig's sound in their writing. And I suppose Beethoven learned it from Mozart and Haydn and put his own stamp on it. 

It's like listening to jazz sax players and you can hear either Charlie Parker, Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins or Coltrane in all these other players.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Certain characterisric theme shapes (Haydn), certain kinds of harmonic progessions (Beethoven), characteristic orchestration (many), characteristic way of dealing with certain forms (Bruckner), characteristic rhythmic profiles (Stravinsky), identifiable idiosyncracies (Brahms) ... All this over and above era styles. (Tovey tells the story of a noted conductor who visted him and noticed a copy of Missa Solemnis open on his desk, pointed to the first measure and said something close to: "It's amazing how you can recognize any common chord orchestrated by Beethoven.")

A noted 20th c. example is Richard Strauss, whose characteristic "sound" (thematic shapes and distinctive orchestration) is recognizeable within minutes or seconds, even if you've never heard the piece before.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I think it's best to analyze the score of certain passages that you feel is exemplifies the composer's style. Or else get DeepBach to help. I feel the generated piece here is not so uniquely Bach.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/23/14069382/ai-music-creativity-bach-deepbach-csl


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Phil loves classical said:


> I think it's best to analyze the score of certain passages that you feel is exemplifies the composer's style. Or else get DeepBach to help. I feel the generated piece here is not so uniquely Bach.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/23/14069382/ai-music-creativity-bach-deepbach-csl


Fascinating! Thanks for the post. Now I wish I knew where to go to find out what rules one follows to get a Bach sounding harmony.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Score Analysis:

Mahler 24
Schubert 600


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

melody, harmony, rhythm, texture, setting/instrumentation, etc - 
all those basic components of music are what determines a composer's style....


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*What makes a composer identifiable? *



Heck148 said:


> melody, harmony, rhythm, texture, setting/instrumentation, etc -
> all those basic components of music are what determines a composer's style....


Having a name helps, too.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I was going to flippantly say "having your picture on the CD case" (although in the case below they obviously modeled Beethoven on a character from 'The Walking Dead', just after they've 'turned' (I remember poor old Shane looking ike that before Rick took him out) .


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

LAS said:


> Some composers, like Beethoven and Mozart are identifiable within a few measures, even if you don't know the piece (or don't remember it). An exception would be Mozart's Jupiter, which sounds an awful lot like Beethoven.







I'm pretty sure if this was a Beethoven they would freak out saying "so serious! So emotionally profound! typical Beethoven!" But since it's a Mozart. It would never get such a praise. After all, "Mozart wrote to please the aristocrats", unlike Beethoven. Whatever content it has, it's music for the aristocrats.
Your Vote: Mozart vs. Beethoven
Why does music get so angsty and dark with/after Beethoven? 
The most advanced work you can truly get and enjoy
These 'extreme enthusiasts' at times remind me of Beethoven himself's own attitude toward Rossini. He was in fact somewhat jealous of Rossini's popularity and success he told Rossini "not to attempt at anything else except Italian operas" - displaying some sort of "superiority complex" toward Rossini, thinking that he could compose certain types of music Rossini could not.

So I'm guessing his extreme enthusiasts are thinking they could pretty much do the same with Mozart, what Beethoven did to Rossini. Sadly, it just won't work.
If you look at the truths that have been obscured by all their "propaganda" driven by wishful-thinking and attempts at "history revision":

Op.10 No.1: 



K457: 




Op.13: 



K457: 




Op.57: 



K475: 



Op.57: 



K475: 




Op.111: 



K546: 



Op.111: 



K426: 



K546: 




Op.37: 



K491: 



Op.37: 



K388: 




You almost have to wonder if there's certain Mozartian connection involved, even with Beethoven's well-known love for C minor.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_What constitutes style? How is one style different from another? That's my question. _

Compositional style

Bach -- two voices in fugues (and other forms) moving independently of each other but in time

Beethoven -- rapid succession (typically ascension) of eighths and quarters in minor keys

Bruckner -- figures that build on each other, brass following woodwinds following strings

Debussy -- chromatics that do not follow established patterns or reconcile to the tonic

Vivaldi -- leaps of halves and quarters followed by tunes in quarters and/or eighths in allegro or presto time. Think of the opening of Gloria and its half-leaps.

Cesar Franck was known for (re)cycling thematic material throughout his music.

Robert Simpson was known for orchestral cells -- groups of instruments playing differently from each other simultaneously

Composers that don't have an established style tend to be forgotten.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

If a composer doesn't have a recognisable voice I tend to drop any potential interest I might have had in their music. There are quite a few among living composers who I have given up on for this reason. It isn't about always writing the same type of music - the great composers are easily recognised whatever the mood and form of the piece.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

It's interesting really just how strong some composer's style it and how hard it is for others to emulate. There's this otherwise fine recording of the Nutcracker conducted by Lanchberry. In Act II there's a surprise - the conductor inserts a piece by Tchaikovsky arranged "in Tchaikovsky's style". But it's not - it sticks out like a sore thumb. Crass, flashy, vulgar and despite the conductor's best attempt, sounds nothing like the way the master scores.

Then there's Haydn, who subconsciously tended to write the minuet movements in later symphonies that quite often fit the words "Are you the O'Reilly who runs this hotel?". And it's a quick way to determine if it's by Haydn or Mozart!


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

What makes a composer identifiable? My take is rather cynical and mundane. Listening to their music and remembering it. I know that some of my friends who know nothing about classical music can't tell the difference between Bach, Beethoven and Brahms. But we can here at TC.

Now the next question is: If you play me a piece by Beethoven I've never heard before, could I tell it's Beethoven? Maybe, probably. I've heard a lot of Beethoven, so his style, technique, soundscape is familiar. If you play me a piece by Max Reger, could I identify it as by Max Reger? Probably not. I've heard almost nothing of his music. 

The end result is that I still just need to listen to become familiar with the music. I learn the music, it's memorized.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I feel that I get to "know" (recognise) a composer almost before I know any (or certainly many) of his/her pieces. It is like recognising a personality and a voice in a person. I don't know how it is done.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Of guitarists, Les Paul said "if your mother hears you on the radio and knows it's you, then you have a style."


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Score Analysis:
> 
> Mahler 24
> Schubert 600


I don't understand. Are there analyses of these scores somewhere?


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Thanks for this. Interesting. I wish I could find a textbook or an online class that would do this sort of thing.



larold said:


> _What constitutes style? How is one style different from another? That's my question. _
> 
> Compositional style
> 
> ...


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Heck148 said:


> melody, harmony, rhythm, texture, setting/instrumentation, etc -
> all those basic components of music are what determines a composer's style....


Right, but somewhere does someone analyze what kind of harmony Beethoven uses vs Mozart or Brahms, most especially instrumentation. For example, "composer x uses horns and cellos in octaves a lot. Composer y uses flutes above brass with strings going back and forth for long periods between two notes." That's what I'm looking for. Too much for this forum. I'm looking for text books or online classes.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I Recommend: "Write Like Mozart: An Introduction to Classical Music Composition"

"This course introduces students to strategies for style writing of common practice European art music. The issues of harmonic progression, voice leading, and texture are addressed in addition to relevant compositional concepts like repetition, variation, and elaboration."

This is a very meaty course, and it's free.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/classical-composition


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

LAS said:


> Right, but somewhere does someone analyze what kind of harmony Beethoven uses vs Mozart or Brahms, most especially instrumentation. For example, "composer x uses horns and cellos in octaves a lot. Composer y uses flutes above brass with strings going back and forth for long periods between two notes." That's what I'm looking for. Too much for this forum. I'm looking for text books or online classes.


If you want to know what makes a composer ticks, how he thinks, is methods of harmony, orchestration, voice leading, doubling, etc what about the old tried and true method? Take representative scores of the composers you're interested in and copy - by hand - the music from the original into blank pages and when you rewrite it, write the new score in concert pitch. Then try to make a condensed score from it. Time consuming? Oh my, yes! But you'll learn more than you can imagine - far more than from reading books or studying a score. When I was a budding musician I was given this task for several works such as Mozart 40, Beethoven 3, Brahms 1, Tchaikovsky 4, among them. Not the whole work, or even a whole movement. Maybe just the exposition or so. You'll go through a lot of pencils, but you'll get a deep understanding of how those geniuses wrote. And you'll understand why they did it that way.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Thanks for this. Interesting. I wish I could find a textbook or an online class that would do this sort of thing.

they don't teach it in school; it's up to you to learn it on your own.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Examples:

Prokofiev's repeated insertion of "hurry-scurry", scherzo-ish ("joking") interludes or movements within many of his major works. The 2nd piano concerto is one example, _Love for Three Oranges_, etc. Very characteristic.

Sibelius: A love of ostinato; sudden irruptions of swelling brass; distinctive use of woodwinds. I first heard the 3rd symphony on the radio eons ago, knowing only a few other Sibelius pieces. I had tuned in after the announcement of the work but guessed right away that it was Sibelius.

Bartók is also somewhat easy to spot, with often a quiet, mysterious "night" movement as a central pivot in a work.

Just some observations of someone not versed in music theory or practice.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I can always identify Shosty by those raging piccolos.


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

to KenOC: Thanks so much! Both look very promising!


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Time consuming, yes. But the big problem is that I'm not trained in harmony beyond major and minor scales and chords.


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## LAS (Dec 12, 2014)

Thanks to StrangeMagic and Startrhower! The kind of specific I'm looking for. I'll listen for those things.


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