# All of Wagner, or just the chunks?



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

In light of all the Wagner discusssion here lately, and the comments of those who don't care for opera too much, I offer this thread to the forum.

Wagner. Indeed a great composer and orchestrator. His operas are perhaps among the greatest artistic achievments of all of western music...

...but do you enjoy sitting through a whole opera, or do you prefer the famous excerpts from his output, like Ride of the Valkyries, Forest Murmurs, Liebestod, etc.?

I have to say, I'm more of an excerpt guy. Opera in general is not my forte. Wagner's operas are quite lengthy, and I always finding myself looking forward to the big numbers through the "less exiting" bits.

Where do you stand?

I have much respect (and perhaps a bit of jealousy) for those who can take in a whole Wagner opera in one sitting. The music is great, but for me, there's just too much of it. Even if I divide it over a few evenings, it's still a lot to take in. Maybe one day, once my endurance level goes up, I'll turn around. But at least in the meantime, I have my "best of" CDs (which I normally don't go for for other composers) to keep me in touch, albeit in a very perfunctory way, with herr Wagner.


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Even the famous moments only have meaning, not only dramatic but musical meaning as well, in the long form. Like the final of Parsifal, which is amazing, but it comes from a looooong musical development begun at beggining of the third act, a massive modulation of 2 hours, lol. And also the thematic develpement of Wagner relies on having heard certain themes and certain harmonies (in Götterdämmerung, Alberich is represented by a tritone) before, so when you hear them at the climax, it is all more significant. Take the Liebestod, the massive tension (dramatic, thematic, harmonic) aroused during the previous 4 hours makes it much more climatic. That's actually one of the reasons Wagner is so good, his large scale view of the opera in one of the most accomplished.


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## Herzeleide (Feb 25, 2008)

bdelykleon said:


> That's actually one of the reasons Wagner is so good, his large scale view of the opera in one of the most accomplished.


I agree.

One of the main points with Wagner is the *continuity*.

His are not number operas, composed so that individual arias can be taken therefrom.


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## wolf (May 16, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> ...I have much respect (and perhaps a bit of jealousy) for those who can take in a whole Wagner opera in one sitting. The music is great, but for me, there's just too much of it. Even if I divide it over a few evenings, it's still a lot to take in. Maybe one day, once my endurance level goes up, I'll turn around. But at least in the meantime, I have my "best of" CDs (which I normally don't go for for other composers) to keep me in touch, albeit in a very perfunctory way, with herr Wagner.


I can understand that it can be a bit 'overwhelming' with many hours of Wagner, although I wish that they'd never end, lol...I think that you will come further into the operas as time goes by. I'd say that Tannhäuser or Lohengrin are better to start with if you want to 'endure' a whole opera, than 'Tristan', 'Die Walkure' or 'Götter'. You probably already know their overtures, and Elsas and Elisabeths arias are fantastically beautiful, but when you are actually 'into' Wagner, you don't want to hear them as 'concert numbers' but the whole operas...

Although I became a 'classical nut' practically overnight, and that included loving opera music, I did have to 'train' myself into listening to the whole operas, when it was a question of Wagner. I much preferred Bruckner and Mahler in the beginning, but slowly the fantastic world of Wagner opened itself up. My goodness, what joy, listening to Tristan with that wonderful neverending music, harmony after harmony, intervowen with the glorious voices...


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

My favorite wagnerian opera is Die Meitersinger von Nürnberg though. It is a more agile and cheerful opera, has lyrical, dramatic and funny moments, and without the obsessive, strange characters like Klingsor, Isolde, Hagen, of other operas.

I love that procedure of Wagner of showing several distinct themes, and through the opera he shows us that all are just variations of the same theme. Almost all themes from Tristan and Meistersinger come from the theme of love, in case of Tristan, or in the MEistersinger from the song from an original tune of Hans Sachs himself.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

With most operas I'm able to digest them in their entirety right away. But with Wagner's *Ring Cycle* I definetly had to take the excerpt route first before I was able to take in the entire thing at once, and now I'm planning on attending the Bayreuth Festival, which should be in... what 20 years, lol. (But seriously I am planning on doing that)


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I much prefer to watch the entire thing, though sometimes i like to just a hear a prelude when im in the mood.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

I've never tried to sit through an entire Wagner opera, but I think I'd find it tiresome - call me a philistine if you like but I prefer the orchestral (and some choral, rather than solo voice) excerpts - my favourite being Siegfried's Funeral March from Götterdämmerung.


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## Elgarian (Jul 30, 2008)

I started with excerpts. That got me going. Then I bought the Bohm _Ring_, and became for a while dissatisfied with listening to anything other than a complete opera at a sitting. At the height of this 'purist' phase I bought the Goodall _Ring_, but gradually I suppose I just left that phase behind and now, many years on, I listen to Wagner far less often, and even then only in (relatively) small doses. I suppose the vastness of the drama is embedded somewhere in my psyche by now, so that even when I listen to excerpts, I listen as if they're part of the whole.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

What I do with Wagner is this - rarely do I have four or five hours in which to listen to a whole opera, so I go from a favourite act and listen to that.. Eg. Act III of Tristan und Isolde..


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## alexi (Dec 3, 2008)

You have to at least sit through the last act to really appreciate the climactic ending. 

Wagner's music is a lot of build up, if you don't listen to it the way Wagner intended, you're not really listening to Wagner are you?

And never forget that Wagner's music is better than it sounds.  The poetry, the complexity of the music, the story, the story in the music, the meaning behind it all,... .


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

And I forgot to say, Wagner's operas are meant to be seen in the opera house.


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## LvB (Nov 21, 2008)

The whole thing, though I have no qualms about listening to acts or excerpts, as they serve as memory triggers. But I own several copies of _Der Ring des Nibelungen_,, and I've listened to each of them many times. I also have as all the other operas except _Die Feen_ and _Rienzi_ (which latter, to the best of my knowledge, has never been recorded complete), and return to them on occasion.

Though I do agree with the previous posters who've commented on the time commitment; it's not easy making the space available for an entire four hour opera....


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Since I'm not a fan of opera, I'm not much a fan of Wagner. The opera was Wagner's medium. He completely changed it forever.

I do, however, have tremendous respect for his achievements in music. I just can't get on board with his music all the way.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, try Die Meistersinger then.. you might prefer that..


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