# Cavallo Bianco - Symphony in G minor



## ancore

A symphony of a lost white horse
I could write its story, but I think it's better if you use your own imagination

What do you think about its voice leading? It's my 2nd orchestral music, and it's nearly finished. 
What story does it tell to you?


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## Vasks

There's more here than I have time for now, but for starters:

1) Do you intend for there to be only one cello player & one bass player? The audio sounds like lots of each, but that would not make sense scoring-wise. If there is to be one player on a part, then don't call this symphonic at all. It's a chamber quintet.

2) Don't call a 3 minute piece a "Symphony". It's a symphonic miniature if you intend for lots of cello and bass players..

3) Aside from the flute melody, none of the other instruments are ever melodic. Their parts are boring and the range used for them is very limited. In other words, your piece is a flute feature with accompaniment. And that's again not a symphony.


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## ancore

I didn't intend to write it as a smyphony, I just couldn't label it, but that's not the point here. It's gonna be performed, but there is a limit in musicians so only one players per instrument for now.


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## Phil loves classical

It doesn’t sound like the material for a symphony either to me, more like part of a suite.


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## ancore

That's totally fine, I couldn't put this piece anywhere yet. What I'm more curious is the voice leading and my solutions if they sound fine and if the piece is nice overall


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## Phil loves classical

Sounds nice to me.


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## beetzart

I like the melody and the melancholic mood is gives; is that what you intended? I would have liked a 2nd subject to contrast the main theme that could obviously make your piece longer and then you can at least try for setting it in ternary form. If you intend it to become a symphony then I think you would have to write in sonata form or theme and variegation depending on what movement this is. This would make for a nice 2nd or 3rd movement of a symphony. 

Still, I enjoyed it and I hope it grows into something bigger.


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## ancore

Thanks for the reviews. To be honest I intended this to be a gloomy first movement of a sonata, but I'm completely new to composing, and I'm not familiar with sonata form. I have no idea what the rules are, unfortunately, and I don't want to call something a sonata if it is not So if anyone could help me with it I'd be very grateful.


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## beetzart

Sonata form is a bit long winded but it is my favourite form as it gets the most out of a small piece of music, like Beethoven did for example.

The first section is called the Exposition. 
Within this you have two subjects. 
Say one in C minor to open the piece.
Then a second subject to contrast the first subject. 
The second subject will normally be in the dominant or sub dominant major/minor of the original key.
Sometimes in the relative minor or major key, too.
The exposition though usually ends with a small transition and in the dominant key.
The next section is the Development.
This is where you can throw caution to the wind and develop the subjects (usually the first) as much as you want.
You can also introduce new ideas and develop them, too. 
The development section should than segue into the final section, the Recapitulation. 
This is where you introduce the exposition again with slight changes if wanted. Although you have to end the piece on the tonic. 

And that is how I was taught to use sonata form when I was doing my GCSEs in 1994. I was told that writing in this form will get you high marks. Although, I'm sure someone will see mistakes in my explanation. Once you get used to using it you'll realise how it is a very liberating form and you can stretch it out as much as you want, or stick to its rules rigidly.


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## ancore

Thanks for the answer! You've helped me a lot In the developlent section, can I use any key? Like 1st movement in G minor, 2nd movement in E-flat minor? And is it okay to finish in tonic in the first movement, like Beethoven in the moonlight sonata?


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## beetzart

ancore said:


> Thanks for the answer! You've helped me a lot In the developlent section, can I use any key? Like 1st movement in G minor, 2nd movement in E-flat minor? And is it okay to finish in tonic in the first movement, like Beethoven in the moonlight sonata?


That's ok. Yes, in the develop section you can pretty much do as you want as long as you start the recapitulation with the tonic. I have found that many composers like to use diminished chords in the development section normally as arpeggios. They have a special feeling of urgency and power do the diminished 7ths especially when combined with the 1st subject somehow, and in broken chords rising and falling. If you can add some dischord into this section you can make it even more anxious for the listener especially if you don't resolve it too soon, but you must resolve it, tradition again! It is usually the done thing to finish a movement on the tonic. There are exceptions, and there are Picardy thirds which Bach used a lot. It is where he ended a minor key movement with a relative major chord. All he did was raise the mediant by a semi-tone. Beyond the Baroque it is not really used anymore.

If you were writing a four movement symphony normally the slow movement is in a different key, usually the dominant or relative major/minor, but you could use E flat minor I don't see a problem with that. The other three movements though usually stay with the original key.


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## ancore

The only problem I'm currently facing is that I can't really call this first movement a sonata because it's written for multiple instruments, but many enough to call it a symphony's 1st movement. Tho I definitely want to use some kind of form and indicate it in the title too.


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## Vasks

ancore said:


> Tho I definitely want to use some kind of form and indicate it in the title too.


There's no reason you must title your piece based on its form. Your original post mentioned a 'lost white horse". Create your title to reflect that, or some other non-form title. I myself sometimes turn to a phrase from a poem that reflects the piece or a title of a painting becomes my piece's title.


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## beetzart

ancore said:


> The only problem I'm currently facing is that I can't really call this first movement a sonata because it's written for multiple instruments, but many enough to call it a symphony's 1st movement. Tho I definitely want to use some kind of form and indicate it in the title too.


Are you familiar with Rondo form at all? It is usually used for a final movement and it can be a great form to work with as you just go ABACADA. Beethoven wrote some amazing Rondos for his last movements. Or you can use theme and variations which can also be as lively as a rondo. I'm sure you are familiar with Mozart's Rondo alla Turca? It is the final movement in one of his piano sonatas and it is a great example of how to write in that form.


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## ancore

Well I wasn't aware of its form, only heard about it. Unfortunately I'm pretty new to composing yet. 
This will be the main theme I'll develop, just unsure if I should go for the rondo form or stick to sonata form


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## beetzart

ancore said:


> Well I wasn't aware of its form, only heard about it. Unfortunately I'm pretty new to composing yet.
> This will be the main theme I'll develop, just unsure if I should go for the rondo form or stick to sonata form


Sonata form 1st movement (for any sonata for any instrument, chamber piece, concerto, symphony)
Ternary or Sonata form slow 2nd movement (normally Ternary, some cases Binary)
Scherzo or Minuet form 3rd movement (not always included. Rarely used in concertos)
Theme and variations, Rondo or Sonata form 4th Movement. (T a Vs or Rondo are a good way to end a piece and easier to write)

I think what you already have is good, very good in fact, you just need to be able to develop it. You can start the 1st and 4th with slow introductions that could be 16 bars long and usually marked Adagio or Largo. Introductions are usually in a minor key but not always. Listening to Beethoven's first two symphonies will give you an idea of what I mean.

Are you clued up with how to write scherzos and/or minuets?

I almost forgot, you can re-introduce your main theme from the first movement into the finale briefly (you can reprise themes from all three movements into the finale if you want) but the latter should still be a self-contained movement on its own with its own theme/motif.


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## ancore

beetzart said:


> Sonata form 1st movement (for any sonata for any instrument, chamber piece, concerto, symphony)
> Ternary or Sonata form slow 2nd movement (normally Ternary, some cases Binary)
> Scherzo or Minuet form 3rd movement (not always included. Rarely used in concertos)
> Theme and variations, Rondo or Sonata form 4th Movement. (T a Vs or Rondo are a good way to end a piece and easier to write)
> 
> I think what you already have is good, very good in fact, you just need to be able to develop it. You can start the 1st and 4th with slow introductions that could be 16 bars long and usually marked Adagio or Largo. Introductions are usually in a minor key but not always. Listening to Beethoven's first two symphonies will give you an idea of what I mean.
> 
> Are you clued up with how to write scherzos and/or minuets?
> 
> I almost forgot, you can re-introduce your main theme from the first movement into the finale briefly (you can reprise themes from all three movements into the finale if you want) but the latter should still be a self-contained movement on its own with its own theme/motif.


Yes it's been helpful Thanks!


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## martonic

The "sonata" form is a floor plan for a single movement. The instrumentation can be anything. The key to the "development" is that it uses fragments of the principle and secondary themes (that were introduced in the exposition) and that it modulates to various keys and modes far away from where the entire movement starts and ends. The development may also include an interlude in a different tempo or rhythm that uses material that is only loosely derived from the main themes. This occurs for instance in the third movement of Beethoven's "Pathetique" Sonata. 

The term "Sonata" is also used for a three- or four-movement composition for limited instrumentation such as solo piano or piano plus flute or violin. So don't confuse "Sonata" compositions with the "sonata" form which is often used for the first movement of a massive orchestral symphony (for example).

However, it is also true that the first movement of a "sonata" composition is often in "sonata" form.


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## martonic

The "sonata" form for compositions (such as a Beethoven piano sonata) is basically: fast, slow, fast. Or with four movements it can be: fast, slow, playful, very fast. In a three-movement "sonata" the first and/or third movement is often in "sonata" form. The second movement may be theme-and-variations or just a slow version of the sonata form. The last (third or fourth) movement may also be a "rondo" - a main theme alternating with variations on a second theme. In the case of four movements, the third movement is often a "scherzo" - either a rondo or a sonata form based on a dance rhythm. 

There are of course many other possibilities, but the above schemes occur very frequently.


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## martonic

So there is a "sonata" form for compositions, and (what is something else entirely) a "sonata" form for movements.

The sonata form for movements is also called "Sonata - Allegro" form, although there is no requirement that the movement be labelled Allegro.

In fact, the same outline is also frequently used for slow movements, although in this case the primary and secondary themes are usually more similar than are those in the fast version, and the development does not modulate as much as it does in the fast movements.

Individual movements also use a variety of "song forms" such as ABA, ABACA etc. 

Each "A" or "B" after the first can also be an "A prime" or "B prime" (I am not sure how to type this), that is, a variation.

Congratulations on getting into composition and good luck working in one or more of these structures!


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## Zeus

As others have said, it is not a symphony. You should try first to write in simple forms, for one or two instruments, before attempting any kind of larger work. Also, there is a lot of harmony work missing (try writing 4 part voice.leading exercises, as well as analyzing bach chorales. It’s good standard practice for organizing your thoughts in a vertical.and horizontal.way). Also, you should listen to a lot more.music. What kind of.music do you want to write? Reflect on that, and. when listening (with score whenever possible) to music pay attention to the ideas and the way other composers realize.them. Slowly, you’ll begin.to acquire a better instinct and larger arsenal of material inside your head to.work with. This is of course just a small part.of advice,.and there’s so.much more you need to know. Do you have a teacher? Do you play an.instrument?


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## ancore

martonic said:


> So there is a "sonata" form for compositions, and (what is something else entirely) a "sonata" form for movements.
> 
> The sonata form for movements is also called "Sonata - Allegro" form, although there is no requirement that the movement be labelled Allegro.
> 
> In fact, the same outline is also frequently used for slow movements, although in this case the primary and secondary themes are usually more similar than are those in the fast version, and the development does not modulate as much as it does in the fast movements.
> 
> Individual movements also use a variety of "song forms" such as ABA, ABACA etc.
> 
> Each "A" or "B" after the first can also be an "A prime" or "B prime" (I am not sure how to type this), that is, a variation.
> 
> Congratulations on getting into composition and good luck working in one or more of these structures!


Thanks for your answer mate! I'll surely try to write a sonata, but I'll start with simpler forms if there are any. Also I prefer orchestral composing rather than composing for piano for the time being, tho I started on the piano.


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## ancore

Zeus said:


> As others have said, it is not a symphony. You should try first to write in simple forms, for one or two instruments, before attempting any kind of larger work. Also, there is a lot of harmony work missing (try writing 4 part voice.leading exercises, as well as analyzing bach chorales. It's good standard practice for organizing your thoughts in a vertical.and horizontal.way). Also, you should listen to a lot more.music. What kind of.music do you want to write? Reflect on that, and. when listening (with score whenever possible) to music pay attention to the ideas and the way other composers realize.them. Slowly, you'll begin.to acquire a better instinct and larger arsenal of material inside your head to.work with. This is of course just a small part.of advice,.and there's so.much more you need to know. Do you have a teacher? Do you play an.instrument?


Thanks for the post, this version had a lot of errors, I'm mostly aware of voice leading rules, but unfortunately I don't have a teacher so all I can learn is from internet, and I've been doing it for 2 years. In fact, my work is almost finished, so I'll put the fixed version here.
Feel free to leave your suggestions here especially regarding dynamics.


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## martonic

Elegant, stately, and lovely composition. This could be the second, slow movement in a work of three movements. Perhaps the first movement (fast 4/4) has the horse trotting along; the second, slow 4/4 movement (this one) has the horse walking, and in the last (fast) movement the horse canters (3/4), and then gallops (4/4) to a rousing conclusion!

The only thing that stands out for me is the final trill - I wonder if it would seem more significant with the upper neighbor on the strong beats, instead of the principal tone. 

In other words, the trill currently goes F# - G - F# - G - F# - G ... - F# - G (tied to the fermata).

I would like to hear a version in which the trill goes instead G - F# - G - F# ... - G - F# - E - F# and then hits the fermata (G) on the down beat. In fact, that seems to be how it is written, but this is not how it is being played. Maybe this is an artifact of the playback mechanism.

In any event, great going! Good luck adding to this!


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## ancore

Yes unfortunately the playback is not always perfect in sibelius, I think I can't really fix the sounding  But thanks for the post, You've been really helpful and nice


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