# Beethoven St Qt #13 Op130



## Guest

This quartet in 6 movements has, to my knowledge on the majority of CDs two choices for the 6th mov either : The Große Fuge.in B flat Op133, or the alternative Finale: Allegro, *which one do you choose? or do you swap from one to the other? *

Not wishing to teach my Grandmother to suck eggs but purely for new comers to quartets, the following is a brief explanation:

The reception of this work at it's first performance was not exactly enthusiastic as the Große Fuge was the final mov and at approx 16 min was considered too long, [_ the 1st mov is about 14/15 min so I suspect that length was not the only reason_] anyway LV B composed another shorter mov an Allegro at 9min 30 sec, which proved more to the taste of the audiences of that time.

I must admit that I use the alternative finale 95% of the time and play the Große Fuge as a separate work, I have heard the Fuge used as a finale at a concert on one occasion.


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## Weston

I program the CD (well, usually the MP3's now) to play the re-thought Allegro as the penultimate movement and the Grosse Fuge as the finale. All the movements are on the Cleveland Quartet 1995 CD and the liner notes suggest you program it to end either way as you point out. I like them both, so I listen to both if I have time. The Grosse Fuge makes me feel like I've had more of a mental workout however. It's a mystical climax to the whole affair.


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## Artemis

Aspects of this were discussed a year ago HERE.


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## starry

I've hardly ever played it with the alternate finale, prefer to keep to Beethoven's original intentions. Taking away the final fugue from op130 is like taking away the opening fugue from op131.


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## Guest

Artemis said:


> Aspects of this were discussed a year ago HERE.


And the point you are making is??


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## Guest

Weston said:


> I like them both, so I listen to both if I have time. The Grosse Fuge makes me feel like I've had more of a mental workout however. It's a mystical climax to the whole affair.


I can understand your view re the Große Fuge, I wonder what it would sound like if both were played, making it a 7 mov work.


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## starry

Well the alternatate finale following the Grosse Fuge might sound superfluous. Preceeding it would sound strange too imo. The Grosse Fuge as it is starts is an answer to the despairing if maybe consoling fade out of the cavatina, an act of defiance and energy (maybe comparable to the start of the last movement of Op135) but still carrying some of the anguish that the cavatina had expressed.


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## Guest

*starry,* I am going to try it tonight making the Fuge the final mov (7) and the alternative as mov 6


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## starry

I'm not sure what answer you can have to the despair of the cavatina except the defiance of the Grosse Fuge, that's my opinion anyway. Already earlier in the piece there had been a somewhat scherzando dancelike movement with the "Andante con moto, ma non troppo. Poco scherzoso" anyway. This and the 'alla danza tedesca' are really challenged by the cavatina which brings the piece up to a new pitch of intensity.


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## Guest

You are probably right but I will give it a go


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## Artemis

Andante said:


> And the point you are making is??


This topic was discussed a year ago. In such cases it's usually more efficient and interesting to update old threads rather than start new ones. That way new members who may unaware of previous discussion get to see the whole picture rather than just the latest meanderings.


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## Guest

Artemis said:


> This topic was discussed a year ago. In such cases it's usually more efficient and interesting to update old threads rather than start new ones. That way new members who may unaware of previous discussion get to see the whole picture rather than just the latest meanderings.


Thank you so much for drawing our attention to this older post, I am a naughty boy I really must check through _*all old posts*_ before I make a new one, I notice that you made a contribution on it well done, whereas me, well I missed it and made no posts as I was incapacitated at the time and did not see it but neither would any of our newer members, I see you have actually started *one* thread yourself *well done*, Do you seriously expect new members to check all posts before they make their own post?? And don't our views on things change with time. Once again you attack others for things that you can't or will not do yourself.


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## Artemis

Andante said:


> Thank you so much for drawing our attention to this older post, I am a naughty boy ....


That's OK, don't worry about it. You asked for an explanation. You got a civil one. Now don't push your luck.


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## starry

This is a different kind of thread. This is about Op130, rather than simply about whether people like the 'Grosse Fuge' or not.

Anyway looked again at the alternate finale and it is a nice piece, but it feels like an encore piece to me. It's a piece that maybe after a quartet concert could be used as an extra for the audience. I think it works better as a separate piece than the Grosse Fugue (which I prefer in its original context as I have said).


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## Guest

starry said:


> Anyway looked again at the alternate finale and it is a nice piece, but it feels like an encore piece to me. It's a piece that maybe after a quartet concert could be used as an extra for the audience. I think it works better as a separate piece than the Grosse Fugue (which I prefer in its original context as I have said).


I disagree but that's not saying that you are wrong 
I tried it out last night, the fuge following the alternative final mov, it worked OK the only thing that IMO that did not quite gel was the decisive coda of the alternative which, as it should said "that's it folks fin" I tried it with the Lindsay's and the Emerson Qts the Lindsay with a more aggressive and expressive style of playing again, IMO and, in this instance came out on top.
I did not find that the 5th mov Cavatina favoured the fuge more than the alternative but then I am used to having the alternative as my usual final mov. It was am interesting evening.


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## starry

The Lindsay's did a good version with the Grosse Fuge ending.

I wonder if by replacing the finale Beethoven was hoping to be able to re-dedicate the quartet to someone else. He was having money problems and it was proving difficult getting the money from Galitzin.


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## Guest

Did Galitzen not cough up for his commissions?? What would be today’s equivalent of 150 ducats? perhaps LvB thought he could sell the Fuge separately, I don’t know.


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## starry

He did eventually I think, but only after Beethoven's death. Beethoven seemed to keep sending him letters asking for the money so I'm not sure how confident he was in getting it. I'm not sure if the Fuge or op130 were published while Beethoven was still alive or not. And that's another thing, the publisher seemed very keen to persuade Beethoven to write another finale, strange that they should want some artistic control over the greatest composer of the day (who they must have done well out of in the past).

And another point on performances on cd that include both finales...surely the playing of a different finale is likely to entail a different interpretation of the whole piece. The cavatina will probably carry less weight with the substitute finale, same for the first movement (which might be taken quicker). I'm not sure if just reprogramming a cd for a different last movement is adequate for a full re-interpretation of the piece. The previous movements must have been played with a view to one ending only. Unless they try a midway approach between a lighter divertimento sound and a more epic expressive piece, but then that might not fully satisfy either.


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## Sid James

I've got the Alban Berg Quartet on EMI playing the Op. 130, and they put the _Grosse Fuge_ before the replacement ending. That's how I listen to it. Interestingly, I read on Wikipedia a while back that the alternative ending was the last thing that Beethoven ever wrote.

I also read somewhere that Stravinsky considered this to be Beethoven's greatest work. I agree, the whole quartet has a level of complexity that surpasses everything else that I have heard by Beethoven, and the expansive six movement structure is way ahead of it's time. It is conceivable that, had he lived longer, Beethoven would have produced symphonies with more than four movements, like Mahler...


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## Guest

starry said:


> And another point on performances on cd that include both finales...surely the playing of a different finale is likely to entail a different interpretation of the whole piece. The cavatina will probably carry less weight with the substitute finale, same for the first movement (which might be taken quicker). I'm not sure if just reprogramming a cd for a different last movement is adequate for a full re-interpretation of the piece. The previous movements must have been played with a view to one ending only. Unless they try a midway approach between a lighter divertimento sound and a more epic expressive piece, but then that might not fully satisfy either.


But to day the vast majority of performances use the alternative movement I have heard the fuge used once only.
Re the 5th mov 'Cavatina' IMO a movement in any form of music has more or less impact as the case may be depending on the previous movement, a slow movement losses some of its effect if played as a stand alone work. Having said that I am not sure about the Grosse Fuge there are obviously exceptions to the rule, so to speak.



Andre said:


> I've got the Alban Berg Quartet on EMI playing the Op. 130, and they put the _Grosse Fuge_ before the replacement ending. That's how I listen to it.


Don't thet give you a choice? I can't imagine they intend you to use both as I did in my evening of fun


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## starry

Andre said:


> Interestingly, I read on Wikipedia a while back that the alternative ending was the last thing that Beethoven ever wrote.
> 
> It is conceivable that, had he lived longer, Beethoven would have produced symphonies with more than four movements, like Mahler...


The last piece he completed perhaps, but he completed it about 4 months before he died.

Beethoven already did a symphony with more than 4 movements, his 6th.


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## Sid James

starry said:


> Beethoven already did a symphony with more than 4 movements, his 6th.


Forgot about that one, sorry. In any case, the cyclical nature of the quartet shows that he was way ahead of his time. I think he was right to extract the _Grosse Fuge _& make it a work in it's own right. It is a work of such complexity and roughness - for want of a better word - that it stands out from the rest of the quartet. Again, having a single movement string quartet, as the stand alone _Grosse Fuge _became, was also something not usually done back then (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall other composers doing this until the C20th)...


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## starry

Andre said:


> Forgot about that one, sorry. In any case, the cyclical nature of the quartet shows that he was way ahead of his time. I think he was right to extract the _Grosse Fuge _& make it a work in it's own right. It is a work of such complexity and roughness - for want of a better word - that it stands out from the rest of the quartet. Again, having a single movement string quartet, as the stand alone _Grosse Fuge _became, was also something not usually done back then (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall other composers doing this until the C20th)...


How about the quartet movement Schubert did?

But I don't think it was intentional that it was published separate to the quartet, it was very much meant to be part of it. I don't think it even works that well on it's own, the opening of it is meant to be a reaction to what has gone before (as with the intro to the finale of op135) and not just an introduction to the movement. Last movements from the last quartets that perhaps would work better on their own than the Grosse Fuge would probably include the finales from op127 and op132.

There is still a certain dance element to the Grosse Fuge which can link it to the earlier parts, and it's not the first fugal finale Beethoven did (he already had done this in his sonatas). Really it's just indicative of the new balance in classical music towards the last movement rather than the first. The first movement of this quartet anyway is quite substantial and this and the intensity of the cavatina would quite easily justify the large final summation of the piece.


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## Artemis

starry said:


> How about the quartet movement Schubert did?


No way. Schubert's "Quartettsatz" (D 703) was not written as a stand-alone piece. It is yet another of his many unfinished works. It comprises the first movement of his 12th String Quartet. He also penned the beginning of the second movement but it is seldom played, as it ends abruptly after a few score bars. Several other works were also abandoned in the same part of Schubert's life for reasons which remain unclear. The significance of D 703 is that it marks the start of Schubert's best efforts in the String Quartet genre.


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## starry

Artemis said:


> No way. Schubert's "Quartettsatz" (D 703) was not written as a stand-alone piece. It is yet another of his many unfinished works. It comprises the first movement of his 12th String Quartet. He also penned the beginning of the second movement but it is seldom played, as it ends abruptly after a few score bars. Several other works were also abandoned in the same part of Schubert's life for reasons which remain unclear. The significance of D 703 is that it marks the start of Schubert's best efforts in the String Quartet genre.


He might have left it as a stand alone piece though as it seems he hardly wrote much else to go with it, same as the Unfinished Symphony. It does work ok on its own as well.

And with the Grosse Fuge I wonder if people's attitude to it is shaped somewhat by attitudes and performances to it in the past as being unplayable, very rough, very eccentric. These kind of 'romantic' attitudes are perhaps outdated. I read an interesting review somewhere about how a group integrated it into their performance of op130 without any need of even making the previous movements more weighty than they are. They made the fugue seem like a lithe and relatively smooth finale to the piece.


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## Weston

Beethoven himself clearly thought the Grosse Fuge a stand alone piece as he made a setting for two pianos (according to the catalog). I'd love to hear that - it might lend new insights into it. It must be impossible to play on one piano.

I am starting to think my way of listening still makes sense, though I didn't have the words to frame it. End the Op. 130 with the light movment and end the CD (or venue performance) with the Grosse Fugue as a nice paring of related pieces then.


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## starry

Weston said:


> Beethoven himself clearly thought the Grosse Fuge a stand alone piece as he made a setting for two pianos (according to the catalog). I'd love to hear that - it might lend new insights into it. It must be impossible to play on one piano.
> 
> I am starting to think my way of listening still makes sense, though I didn't have the words to frame it. End the Op. 130 with the light movment and end the CD (or venue performance) with the Grosse Fugue as a nice paring of related pieces then.


Well we don't know why he did the piano arrangement, maybe just for some more money or to a request. It's still not the same as the string quartet version anyway. If anything it just shows how determined he was that it should not be forgotten just because some publisher said they didn't like it and would prefer something in its place. At the time the Grosse Fuge was considered too difficult and maybe by doing a piano version he thought he could make it more understandable to some people. Times have changed nowadays, many don't think the Grosse Fuge is impossible to play for a string quartet or is too difficult.


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## Guest

Weston said:


> I am starting to think my way of listening still makes sense, though I didn't have the words to frame it. End the Op. 130 with the light movment and end the CD (or venue performance) with the Grosse Fugue as a nice paring of related pieces then.


Weston that is exactly the way I played it the other night (see my post #15) it does work after a fashion, (just that damned coda of the Alternative) but I do prefer the Fuge as a stand alone


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## starry

Just look the other late quartets and it shows how it should be. The only one with a finale following more of a scherzando movement is op127. Op130 was worked on after that and the related quartets which Beethoven was working upon clearly show him using a striving finale after an expressive movement. Op130 is no different to that. The striving finale of the Grosse Fuge is an equivalent in a way to the last movement of op131, it's just that its longer. As I said it also looks forward to op135 with the unsure start to the movement, actually thinking about it even op131 has one or two hesitant bars before the last movement gets into its striving expressive theme.


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