# Physical Graffiti - Led Zepplin



## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Simple - is Physical Graffiti the best Zepplin album.
Personally I'm not sure if it is the "best" but, it is with the benefit of time, the one I return to most frequently.
What do you think?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

For some reason PG never captured my imagination. I rarely play LZ records, but if I do it's usually the first album, or the fourth.

PG does contain many fine songs, although the last three I could take or leave. And I don't want to hear Kashmir, or Trampled Under Foot due to radio burnout. I have an old CD edition which is a bit bass shy, but I'm hesitant to buy re-masters because many of them sound so hideous. I bought some Yes, and Genesis re-masters that sound so bright and compressed that I can't even turn up the stereo without wincing.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

The summits of _Physical Graffiti_ more than make up for the 'longeurs,' and (if impelled) lead to my agreement that it's Zeppelin's peak achievement. [Or should I say favorite achievement in my eyes- sounds less judgemental that way...] Houses of the Holy (variable-bar blues structure) followed by Trampled Underfoot followed by Kashmir (with its 5/4 time backbone). Later comes Ten Years Gone- one of Rock & Roll's top renderings of longing and aching. Yeah- it's apex stuff(!)


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

For me, Led Zep #1 is the champion when it comes to sheer number of wonderful songs on a single album, a Desert Island Disk. Every song is a gem. While Physical Graffiti boasts Zep's best song in the opinion of many (including me), and two other fine songs, I am clearly not the audience for whom most of the rest of PG was intended. My ranking would be, from richest to poorest in density of favored songs: LZ1, Runes, LZ3, Houses, LZ2, In/Out, Presence, PG. Just my opinion.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

It is up there with IV at the top for me. Haven’t compared between the two.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> For me, Led Zep #1 is the champion when it comes to sheer number of wonderful songs on a single album, a Desert Island Disk. Every song is a gem.


I almost agree with this, with the exception of the blues covers. This album has a punchy, compact sound, but has dynamics at the same time. If that makes any sense? Maybe it's those little amps and recording techniques Page employed on the first three albums that has a great appeal? It got really boring by the time they got around to Presence.

I'll have to dig out PG and give it a listen. Besides, my wife never heard any of this stuff. She was into disco in the 70s, so she's getting a rock n roll education now.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^Disco and Led Zeppelin? Best of all possible worlds!


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2018)

Malx said:


> Simple - is Physical Graffiti the best Zepplin album.
> Personally I'm not sure if it is the "best" but, it is with the benefit of time, the one I return to most frequently.
> What do you think?


I think so. It's the only one I have, so maybe I'm not fan enough to say.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^^Disco and Led Zeppelin? Best of all possible worlds!


Oh yeah! We have a 5 disc collection. It's called R&B, but it's really disco. That's why I hide it from the wife.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Not the best - I think there are at least two tracks on what were sides three and four which are surplus to requirements but as it was a double album featuring material from older sessions which didn't make it onto previous albums it can't all be perfect. Had sides one and two been issued as a single album then I think it would have definitely been in the running - those first six tracks are superb.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

dogen said:


> I think so. It's the only one I have, so maybe I'm not fan enough to say.


Me too. I tend not to pay money for rock music because it's not my daily bread (YouTube is good enough), but this one I do have.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

FWIW - I can't name one album I regard as "the Best" as I stated in my opening post PG is the one I return to most often - a great three sides worth of fine tracks and a few throw aways.

I must admit to having a bit of a problem with Zep #I simply because of all the unattributed borrowings from earlier blues tracks, Runes is consistently good but I rarely listen to it now.

Most of what they recorded after PG didn't leave much of a mark on me - perhaps I just moved on. Nowadays any listening to rock I do always has a large element of nostalgia which probably explains my choices.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Physical Graffiti has some superb songs. Though I haven't listened to the album in its entirety in years. In My Time of Dying has some of John Bonham's most explosive drumming. In The Light and Kashmir are terrific. Custard Pie and the Wonton Song are two of my favourite shorter pieces on the album. I used to really enjoy the album, though I've outgrown it and moved on.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2018)

senza sordino said:


> the Wonton Song


I bet you were hungry when you typed this :lol:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

dogen said:


> I bet you were hungry when you typed this :lol:


Good one - I didn't even notice at first. :lol: Just for the record, Senza Sordino, I'm laughing with you not at you.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

After an extended dry spell marked, in my view, by Physical Graffiti (all but three tracks) and Presence (one good song), Led Zeppelin finished out their wonderful run in In Through the Out Door with two of my favorite songs, _Fool in the Rain_ and _All My Love_. Luckily for me, I never move on--over the decades I don't replace or outgrow any music; I just add more to the treasure chest.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> Physical Graffiti has some superb songs. Though I haven't listened to the album in its entirety in years. In My Time of Dying has some of John Bonham's most explosive drumming. In The Light and Kashmir are terrific. Custard Pie and the Wonton Song are two of my favourite shorter pieces on the album. I used to really enjoy the album, though I've outgrown it and moved on.





dogen said:


> I bet you were hungry when you typed this :lol:





elgars ghost said:


> Good one - I didn't even notice at first. :lol: Just for the record, Senza Sordino, I'm laughing with you not at you.


At this moment in time, I can still edit my post. But I'll keep it and let everyone have a good laugh. It is a pretty funny typo.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

You're a good sport.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I think Physical Graffiti is a masterpiece, and among Zeppelin's finest but personally I consider Zeppelin IV, I and II to be just a little bit better.


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## KJ von NNJ (Oct 13, 2017)

Physical Graffiti was my first Zeppelin album. I bought it right before the release of Presence. PG stands out in my mind as the ultimate Zeppelin album. Custard Pie and The Rover are still two songs I enjoy hearing once in a while. Houses of the Holy is a good song. Kashmir blew me away. Absolutely epic. I liked In the Light, still do. As a guitar player, Bron Yer Aur appealed to me, especially after hearing it inserted into an early scene in the movie, The Song Remains the Same. Down by the Seaside and Ten Years Gone are great songs. Night Flight is good fun and The Wonton Song remains one of my favorite Zeppelin tracks. They go acoustic for Boogie With Stu and Black Country Woman, which is a nice break from the "heavy and heady" aspects of what went on before. They were having some fun and lightening it up a bit. Just acoustic blues stuff. 
Is it their best album? It is if you think it is! Hard for me to say now. They were huge at the time they recorded it. Perhaps the biggest band in the world, which is often a recipe for failure. I think they did a good job in sustaining their reputation. It is their most ambitious studio album and features a little bit of everything they were about leading up to it's release. It certainly was a good response to the hype. PG will always be a special one for me because I was young and had never heard music like it before. It left quite an impression. I would call it essential.

Radio killed so much classic rock and Zeppelin was a primary source for the glut. I think all of their studio albums are very good. Even Presence, which took quite a bit of critical abuse. 
I collected everything they did in about a years time, using allowance money to pay 3.99 for each album at local stores. I got an incredible amount of enjoyment out of listening to them all and Physical Graffiti will always be a touchstone for me. When I got into classical music in earnest, I got away from rock for several years. It all just sounded so inadequate to me. Patched together. I'm happy to say that I can still enjoy some of it today, although the thrill of discovery is long gone.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

KJ von NNJ, I enjoyed your post. I am a huge, eternal Led Zeppelin fan--we may differ on which songs, which albums are our favorites, but Zep were/are a landmark band in Rock, an Everest towering over the landscape. 

Regarding whether the thrill is gone, I keep finding new things to appreciate in Rock, most often by mining veins of ore that I somehow missed in earlier years. Those veins are sometimes revealed right here on TC, like, for instance, Be-Bop Deluxe! .


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

My preferences of Zeppelin's albums:

1) IV
2) I
3) II
4) Physical Graffiti
5) Houses of the Holy
6) III

7) Presence
8) In through the Out Door

I consider the first 6 albums to be Led Zeppelin at their finest, and a little bit of a drop off to occur after PG. The last 2 albums are still very good, but to me lack a certain vital energy that was on the earlier releases. A special mention to the track Achilles Last Stand off of Presence which I think is one of their best songs.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Although I still wouldn't have it in my top five Zep albums my appreciation of _Presence_ has nevertheless grown over the years - _Achilles Last Stand_ is Zep at their most widescreen and intricate but the rest of the material has an uncluttered crispness which appeals to me more now than it did before.

In comparison, I thought _In Through The Out Door_ relied on keyboards too much (probably because John Paul Jones had to almost carry the album due to Jimmy Page's drug problems hampering his creativity) and apart from the opener _In The Evening_ I don't think the material is really that strong at all - often lumpen and occasionally banal. And thanks to the surfeit of period synthesiser textures it certainly hasn't aged all that well, either.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> Although I still wouldn't have it in my top five Zep albums my appreciation of _Presence_ has nevertheless grown over the years - _Achilles Last Stand_ is Zep at their most widescreen and intricate but the rest of the material has an uncluttered crispness which appeals to me more now than it did before.
> 
> In comparison, I thought _In Through The Out Door_ relied on keyboards too much (probably because John Paul Jones had to almost carry the album due to Jimmy Page's drug problems hampering his creativity) and apart from the opener _In The Evening_ I don't think the material is really that strong at all - often lumpen and occasionally banal. And thanks to the surfeit of period synthesiser textures it certainly hasn't aged all that well, either.


As we all have had occasions to say, and to think, over the years: Strange eccentricities of taste! To rate Presence over In/Out, well, there you are. But we're all Zep fans together, and that's a Good Thing :cheers:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

PG and IV are my favourite Zep albums but Sabbath (with Ozzy only) were the band I was weaned on. It took me a few years to appreciate Zeppelin but I still preferred British bands like Uriah Heep and UFO back in the day. I was mad on Wishbone Ash too. I tend to pick and choose the Zeppelin tracks I play and these span most of the albums. Achilles Last Stand is probably my fave Zeppelin track.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> Strange eccentricities of taste! To rate Presence over In/Out, well, there you are.


I don't think rating Presence over ITTOD could be chalked up to an eccentricity of taste. I used to participate in a Led Zeppelin forum regularly and if my observations there are any indication over 90% of Zep listeners likely consider Presence better than ITTOD.



Strange Magic said:


> But we're all Zep fans together, and that's a Good Thing :cheers:


Here we agree :cheers: fellow Zep head!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

tdc said:


> I don't think rating Presence over ITTOD could be chalked up to an eccentricity of taste. I used to participate in a Led Zeppelin forum regularly and if my observations there are any indication over 90% of Zep listeners likely consider Presence better than ITTOD.
> 
> Here we agree :cheers: fellow Zep head!


A quick glance at album sales shows In/Out beating Presence by a two-to-one margin, I'm sorry/happy to report. _Fool in the Rain_ and _All My Love_ were killer songs on the radio whereas nothing on Presence ever broke through, certainly to that extent. The popularity of the two biggies on In/Out drove album sales, plus a general sense that Zep were back from wherever they had wandered off to. I can't say I'm a total Zep fan--I like slightly less than half their output overall, though they're my choice for Greatest Band. But as a middle-of-the-bell-curve fan, I tend to like what most folks like, and most folks clearly preferred In/Out.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> A quick glance at album sales shows In/Out beating Presence by a two-to-one margin, I'm sorry/happy to report. _Fool in the Rain_ and _All My Love_ were killer songs on the radio whereas nothing on Presence ever broke through, certainly to that extent. The popularity of the two biggies on In/Out drove album sales, plus a general sense that Zep were back from wherever they had wandered off to. I can't say I'm a total Zep fan--I like slightly less than half their output overall, though they're my choice for Greatest Band. But as a middle-of-the-bell-curve fan, I tend to like what most folks like, and most folks clearly preferred In/Out.


Interesting, goes to show its hard to make accurate guesses at popularity through internet polls. Though on the other hand perhaps it is also a case that ITTOD was the more radio friendly album therefore had cross over appeal to listeners that weren't previous fans of Zep, and really were only interested in those radio hits.

Most Zeppelin fans I've encountered online seem to prefer Presence, but there are exceptions. Presence is also highly rated by some famous musicians like Page himself and it is Dave Mustaine of Megadeth's favorite album of all time. I just have read more in general about people appreciating the artistry on Presence than ITTOD. Record sales don't really tell the whole story imo.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

This thread confirms one thing that has always intrigued me when I read or talk (admittedly not often!)about Zeppelin.....since the album PG came out and to this day, 'The Rover' remains one of my favourite songs by them......and yet it never gets a mention!


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

jim prideaux said:


> This thread confirms one thing that has always intrigued me when I read or talk (admittedly not often!)about Zeppelin.....since the album PG came out and to this day, 'The Rover' remains one of my favourite songs by them......and yet it never gets a mention!


I agree Jim, The Rover is a standout track that tends to fly under the radar.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

_The Rover_ is one of the three standout songs on PG that lift it out of last place on my list.

It is common, I think, for those who fixate upon a well and widely known artist or a band to have tastes that significantly differ from those of the greater audience whose dollars and ears have vaulted that artist or band to prominence. I was probably at one time on perhaps the same LZ forum as you, tdc, and was howled down because I stated that I only liked a certain portion of Zep's output, and not every note of every song on every album. It proved to my critics that I wasn't an authentic, total fan, even though I regard Zep as occupying the very highest ground in Rock. An interesting phenomenon.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> _The Rover_ is one of the three standout songs on PG that lift it out of last place on my list.
> 
> It is common, I think, for those who fixate upon a well and widely known artist or a band to have tastes that significantly differ from those of the greater audience whose dollars and ears have vaulted that artist or band to prominence. I was probably at one time on perhaps the same LZ forum as you, tdc, and was howled down because I stated that I only liked a certain portion of Zep's output, and not every note of every song on every album. It proved to my critics that I wasn't an authentic, total fan, even though I regard Zep as occupying the very highest ground in Rock. An interesting phenomenon.


interesting post....I have never considered myself to be a big 'fan' of Zeppelin but every now and then for 40 years or so they hit the spot and I admit to having a sneaking admiration for one of 'rocks' true juggernauts! However a little like you appear to do so I come at them without the baggage of the major aficionado and essentially pick and choose. I have older mates who tell me that they went downhill after the first album and yet I never really bought into it (seems odd to say it but as a 58 year old perhaps I was too young for certain aspects of that late 60's stuff)......'Whole lotta love'...you can keep, while 'Since I've been loving you' and 'Celebration Day' still have a real appeal....as does 'Song remains the same' (possibly my favourite LZ song).....LZ 4 just got played by everyone when I was younger, often by the people who had limited interest in music and alternated it with 'Rumours', 'Dark side' and 'Hotel wherever' (often applied physics students who seemed more concerned about their 'systems'....

you may recall my contributions to a thread about GP and the R........The Clash gig I went to in 1977 (alongside Ry Cooder two years later) remain my favourite concerts...perhaps that goes some way to explaining my reservations about LZ!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Great post, Jim! I am not an aficionado of anybody in music or the arts to the extent that others either are, seem to be, or choose to present themselves. Nobody is just that good that I loooooovvvve everything they ever produced. My focus is always on the work, the song, the picture, the book--and I ask: What Have You Done For Me Lately? But we both certainly have our favorites in any field--artists who just have a great track record, a batting average that is outstanding. Led Zeppelin falls into that category for me more than just about anybody in Rock (though there are close rivals), and yet I like less than half of their output.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

is that the end of the debate?

I find myself increasingly excited by threads that encourage me to reconsider or review my long listening history and enthusiasms (often questionable).........


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

This is not debate material, but just a suggestion that gets reinforced in my mind whenever I lie there in bed of an evening with the headphones on and listen to a bunch of Led Zep songs: I suggest that one really listen to what's going on in a bloc of whatever--for me it was LZ3 and Runes the other insomniac night. One hears, not essentially a rhythm track with vocals superimposed, but instead an ever-changing and richly-textured aural tapestry, like a heavy knitted scarf of many colors, with Plant's voice weaving in and out--quite _sui generis_ given that this was a group that filled huge stadiums and broke attendance records set by supposed (and quite excellent) Masters of the Rock or Pop Universe. Nobody else that popular was that good. And so many styles! People understandably prattle on about their special favorites and how sad (but really good) it is that so few others share their afición--I have my own obscure faves--but Zep is/was unique.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

jim prideaux said:


> is that the end of the debate?
> 
> I find myself increasingly excited by threads that encourage me to reconsider or review my long listening history and enthusiasms (often questionable).........


I'm not sure there was too much of a debate (other than the Presence/ITTOD thing) other than that I just see posters stating preferences.

I will say that if you like The Rover and The Song Remains The Same (opening track on Houses of the Holy) it seems like you have good taste to me because I consider those two very strong and often over looked Zep songs.

To my taste there are no weak songs on Zeppelin's first 4 albums, one or two weak tracks on Houses of the Holy and 2 or 3 weak tracks on Physical Graffiti. After that to my ears they became a little bit more hit and miss but I personally like the majority of the songs on the last two albums as well, though I rarely listen to them (except Achilles Last Stand - love that track!). Carouselambra off ITTOD is pretty great too but as previously mentioned suffers a bit from the dated synth sound on it.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

apologies-the use of the word 'debate' was inappropriate.....

perhaps I was referring more to an interest in reviewing both my own and others perceptions of music many of us have now known for what is a 'lifetime'.....I continue to find LZ intriguing, swagger and mythology that comes with the status of one of rock n' rolls most popular acts and yet as 'strangemagic' has made clear a musicality and complexity combined with what is essentially great song writing. I personally have no interest whatsoever in other bands that many seem to lump in with them, and find the fact that some people seem to see them as a 'heavy metal' band amusing. Even recently my friends and I renewed our acquaintance with their music as we drove through the Alps in Slovenia and now I find certain tracks capable of reflecting the memory of that majestic environment accurately! (sorry, 'Ramble on' not by LZ in this instance, but me and my verbosity!)


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^^JP, you are so right about people calling Zeppelin "Heavy Metal". I cannot fathom how it came about. The idea certainly could not have come from listening to the music, though perhaps too much "Whole Lotta Love" may have triggered the notion in some. But LZ3 should have cleared away that idea. Led Zep were one of the most eclectic bands ever; that core musicality that we find saturating their work being the glue that binds their total output together.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^^JP, you are so right about people calling Zeppelin "Heavy Metal". I cannot fathom how it came about. The idea certainly could not have come from listening to the music, though perhaps too much "Whole Lotta Love" may have triggered the notion in some. But LZ3 should have cleared away that idea. Led Zep were one of the most eclectic bands ever; that core musicality that we find saturating their work being the glue that binds their total output together.


I think LZ and metal get put together sometimes because some of their songs seem to include the defining characteristic of metal, i.e. a prominent, heavy guitar riff. No band is ALL metal. If there is one band everyone would agree is metal, it's Sabbath, but not all of their music is metal. (Similarly Motorhead and AC/DC get called metal for the same kind of similarity but they are not metal bands)


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

I prefer I, II, III, and IV over PG.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

dogen said:


> I think LZ and metal get put together sometimes because some of their songs seem to include the defining characteristic of metal, i.e. a prominent, heavy guitar riff. No band is ALL metal. If there is one band everyone would agree is metal, it's Sabbath, but not all of their music is metal. (Similarly Motorhead and AC/DC get called metal for the same kind of similarity but they are not metal bands)


I generally agree, but there must be more to the definition of metal beyond a heavy guitar riff; _Layla_ has a fairly heavy riff. Metallurgy is not my thing, but I'd appreciate a succinct definition from one or several of its enthusiasts. I think I know metal when I hear it, but what separates it from hard rock, grunge, heavy blues? Is/are Bad Brains heavy metal?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I generally agree, but there must be more to the definition of metal beyond a heavy guitar riff; _Layla_ has a fairly heavy riff. Metallurgy is not my thing, but I'd appreciate a succinct definition from one or several of its enthusiasts. I think I know metal when I hear it, but what separates it from hard rock, grunge, heavy blues? Is/are Bad Brains heavy metal?


As with most things, I like to fudge out with the term "spectrum" :lol:

A succinct definition might not separate the term from some of the other terms you mention. I do think the one essential element is a persistant guitar riff. If you want a metal band there has to be electric guitar. And bass. And drums. Probably a singer. No keyboards, or at least not essential. In fact the addition of keyboards can be a disqualifier. It is in this household, that's heavy rock.

Soon after that it gets murky! The first Sabbath album clearly shows them coming from a heavy blues background. Grunge is a bit niche, not metal by default, but can be (Jerry Cantrell is the Lord of the Riff). Further murk: RATM: killer metal riffs and rap - what do we call that?!

Layla is a good example, cos it flags up another nebulous notion, the "mood" of the song. Metal generally is not songs of love  It's usually driven, assertive, dark, aggressive, belligerent, angry...which is how metal gets to marry rap perfectly in RATM.

I still think the defining characteristic is the persistent, up front, electric guitar riff creating the main groove of the music. Probably in 4/4. But not AC/DC.

(I've not heard Bad Brains so I can't comment)

Is that succinct enough? :lol:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

dogen, thank you for trying!:tiphat:


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> dogen, thank you for trying!:tiphat:


Back on topic: LZ were not a metal band.

Carry on...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

dogen said:


> Back on topic: LZ were not a metal band.
> 
> Carry on...


Correct. When Led Zeppelin first unleashed themselves on the world they hit hard, like a more disciplined version of the Jeff Beck Group. Led Zeppelin distilled the essence of hard rock but managed to leave the sloppiness behind.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> Correct. When Led Zeppelin first unleashed themselves on the world they hit hard, like a more disciplined version of thee Jeff Beck Group. Led Zeppelin distilled the essence of hard rock but managed to leave the sloppiness behind.


I would suggest that Zep transcended hard rock and established themselves as Masters of All (or certainly many) Genres, or even occupying their own unique genre. The only group that springs immediately to mind as comparable would be The Beatles.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I listened to a handful of tracks yesterday as I cooked dinner. Mentioned earlier was The Rover, so I listened. Yes, it's pretty good, though I prefer many other tracks from Physical Graffiti. I also heard In My Time of Dying, Custard Pie, Ten Years Gone, Wanton Song, In the Light. And then Presence and The Song Remains the Same. 

Lumping Led Zeppelin with other metal bands just doesn't make sense to me. I love Led Zeppelin, I can't stand metal. 

Led Zeppelin is a blues based band, though not limited to twelve bar blues. Some of their strongest songs are not based on twelve bar blues, but there's always that blues sound lurking in the solos. 

There were four bands when I was a kid, my four pillars of rock and roll: The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Yes and Led Zeppelin. Moving to classical music as a adult wasn't so difficult after this music.


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