# Haydn and Mozart - a friendship?



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Hello all,

I've been reading some biographies and in some it is stated that the true nature of Mozart's relationship with F. J. Haydn is not known for certain. Of course, the dedication he wrote to Haydn upon publishing the 'Haydn' quartets is very heartfelt. But there are sources where he apparently disparages Haydn. Another interesting figure is Johann Michael Haydn, with whom Mozart also had a friendship. I've read that Mozart helped J. M. Haydn in a time when the latter had problems with alcoholism by composing pieces for him. 

Comments welcome .


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Knowing human nature, I'm sure there was some professional jealousy between the two great composers.
Didn't Joseph Haydn compose the opus 76 quartets "in retaliation" to the 6 quartets Mozart dedicated to him?

What these guys said in public and in private I'm sure were completely different things.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

“I tell you before God, and as an honest man, your son is the greatest composer known to me by person and repute, he has taste and what is more the greatest skill in composition."

This does not sound to me like a professionally jealous man.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Haydn and Mozart - a friendship?...or something more?
We've seen the powdered wigs, the lace sleeves, the makeup, the effeminate portraits, the delicate hands...we've heard the delicate, dainty music-box sonatas, like a secret jewel-box hidden away...


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

If this is heading towards Haydn/Mozart slashfic, let me say right now... DO NOT WANT.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

ribonucleic said:


> "I tell you before God, and as an honest man, your son is the greatest composer known to me by person and repute, he has taste and what is more the greatest skill in composition."
> 
> This does not sound to me like a professionally jealous man.


Yes, but that was said as a florid public statement. He soon composed his opus 76 quartets as his own personal retort to the Mozart quartets dedicated to him. There had to be professional competition between them. Sort of "nice quartets, Herr Mozart. Now try mine!"

I don't give much credence to public, ceremonial statements.


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

hpowders said:


> There had to be professional competition between them. Sort of "nice quartets, Herr Mozart. Now try mine!"


"Your sonatas are no match for my Flying Crane style!", eh?

I can imagine that. Though I would use the word "rivalry" rather than "competition" - which suggests vying for the same commission or patron.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes, but that was said as a florid public statement. He soon composed his opus 76 quartets as his own personal retort to the Mozart quartets dedicated to him. There had to be professional competition between them. Sort of "nice quartets, Herr Mozart. Now try mine!"
> 
> I don't give much credence to public, ceremonial statements.


Op 76 was written more than 10 years after the Mozart quartets I think. Is there anything in common between the Mozart and Haydn quartets -- other than being half a dozen quartets?


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Yes, but that was said as a florid public statement. He soon composed his opus 76 quartets as his own personal retort to the Mozart quartets dedicated to him. There had to be professional competition between them. Sort of "nice quartets, Herr Mozart. Now try mine!"
> 
> I don't give much credence to public, ceremonial statements.


Actually, I don't think the Op. 76 were composed as a retaliation - they were composed after Mozart's death. The Op. 50 quartets, however, from what I've read, were indeed a 'retaliation', but of a friendly kind. Both composers quoted each other in their works and so it was a 'healthy' competition between the two. An awesome contest - look how much we benefited!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Actually, I don't think the Op. 76 were composed as a retaliation - they were composed after Mozart's death. The Op. 50 quartets, however, from what I've read, were indeed a 'retaliation', but of a friendly kind. Both composers quoted each other in their works and so it was a 'healthy' competition between the two. An awesome contest - look how much we benefited!


Like I wrote in a previous thread, take me back to 1790-Haydn, Mozart and the young Beethoven all doing their thing. Can anyone imagine from that time the musical greatness in their midst? Astonishing!!!


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

Not sure about the Haydn-Mozart relationship. 

But I do know that Beethoven's relationship with Haydn was definitely full of ambivalence. There was certainly a rivalry between them, despite the fact that it was a pupil-teacher relationship. For example, Haydn referred to Beethoven as the "Great Mongol" for his hard-charging ways and lack of deference. Likewise, Beethoven felt that Haydn was trying to keep him down when Haydn suggested that he not publish the third of his Piano Trios, Op. 1, which was the most original of the three. And these are just a couple examples.

Swafford's biography makes it clear that LvB was NOT someone who typically got along well with others.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Yes, but that was said as a florid public statement.


Don't believe that's the case. It was a private remark by Haydn to Leopold, who was in town from Salzburg. Leopold quoted the remark in a private letter to Nannerl, which is why we have it today.


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

JACE said:


> Not sure about the Haydn-Mozart relationship.
> 
> But I do know that Beethoven's relationship with Haydn was definitely full of ambivalence. There was certainly a rivalry between them, despite the fact that it was a pupil-teacher relationship. For example, Haydn referred to Beethoven as the "Great Mongol" for his hard-charging ways and lack of deference. Likewise, Beethoven felt that Haydn was trying to keep him down when Haydn suggested that he not publish the third of his Piano Trios, Op. 1, which was the most original of the three. And these are just a couple examples.
> 
> Swafford's biography makes it clear that LvB was NOT someone who typically got along well with others.


I think it was the Grand Mogul . Getting back to Haydn and Mozart: I've read in musical literature that the relationship between Haydn and Mozart has been exaggerated and romanticized during the 19th century. However, I do think Mozart respected F. J. Haydn, and also his brother. Mozart's Requiem bears many similarities to J. M. Haydn's Requiem - the beginning sounds almost identical. Mozart was also known to use material from both composers. I'm sure the Haydn brothers returned the favour and did the same with Mozart. But the loving, 'father-son' relationship is probably what's slightly exaggerated - Mozart asking Haydn, 'but Papa, you'll be old and we won't see each other again - and how will you speak English?' and Haydn saying 'My language is known all over the world' before Haydn's London journeys might be an 'anecdote'. But who knows. The fact that Mozart explicity cited Haydn in his quartets must be evidence of respect, however. And apparently it was Haydn's Op. 33 that inspired Mozart to take his quartet writing to a higher level.


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## ProudSquire (Nov 30, 2011)

I think Haydn and Mozart's friendship was genuine and that they truly enjoyed each other's company. Not only did they play quartets with each other, they readily praised one another with a greater magnitude than a Justin Bieber retirement tweet, probably. Of course, one could never rule out the possibility of jealousy, but then again, I wouldn't know anything about it. But perhaps the answer we are looking for is all in the music!:trp:

Also, this little wiki article, which no doubt you're probably familiar with, gives some insight into their relationship. But then again, it's a wiki, so glean from it what you will.

Link


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I've read in musical literature that the relationship between Haydn and Mozart has been exaggerated and romanticized during the 19th century.


In all likelihood. But this is a case where I'll be very content to remain un-debunked.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think it was the Grand Mogul .


Oops. Yeah, you are correct!

...But a "Grand MONGOL" would be mighty imposing too.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

hpowders said:


> "nice quartets, Herr Mozart. Now try mine!"


Let us not mistake the stimulation one artist's work gives another, and let us not make too much of whatever there may have been of one-upsmanship....

I'm sure when Haydn sat down to write those quartets, the last thing on his mind was anything to do with Mozart, or 'showing Mozart up,' or anything like. More likely, he was stimulated by Mozart's very fine work to make very fine work of his own.

Of course, for a biopic film, this is dead in the water no drama no fun, but that is more than likely the way it really was ;-)


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## ribonucleic (Aug 20, 2014)

PetrB said:


> I'm sure when Haydn sat down to write those quartets, the last thing on his mind was anything to do with Mozart, or 'showing Mozart up,' or anything like. More likely, he was stimulated by Mozart's very fine work to make very fine work of his own.


Absolutely.

Though it's very amusing to picture Papa Haydn sharpening his quills with savage knife strokes, muttering "Young punk..."


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ribonucleic said:


> Though it's very amusing to picture Papa Haydn sharpening his quills with savage knife strokes, muttering "Young punk..."


I believe he was thinking about Beethoven... :lol:


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Of course, for a biopic film, this is dead in the water no drama no fun, but that is more than likely the way it really was ;-)


Well, we could always have Salieri trying to murder both of them... 

Such relationships can of course be full of ambivalence. One can easily imagine Haydn, having worked his behind off for decades before he became Europe's greatest composer, being a tad less than amused to have someone like Mozart come along. Except that he was apparently an altogether decent man, and as far as I know, Mozart himself was easy-going. Perhaps both were confident enough in their own abilities not to feel unduly threatened by the other.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I believe he was thinking about Beethoven... :lol:


Unbeknownst to most historians of music, Salieri tried to poison Beethoven as well, one afternoon when he was giving the young genius lessons in choral writing and realized he would eventually be overshadowed. But he misjudged the required dose, and instead of killing Beethoven, the poison only turned him into an unpleasant prick.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

ribonucleic said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Though it's very amusing to picture Papa Haydn sharpening his quills with savage knife strokes, muttering "Young punk..."


"Damned punk with his stylish wig, red coat, and so full of himself! I'll show him!"

Yeah, right, like either of them did not have a _very good measure of their selves in relation to the rest of the world, and one in relation to the other, or, as if they were both average teenagers,_ :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

"100 years will pass before the world sees another talent like this" - Haydn on Mozart.

Haydn knew Mozart was the greatest of the two.


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## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

I don't think that Mozart and Haydn had a relationship as close friends, but yes a nice teacher-student relationship with mutual respect.


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## Alypius (Jan 23, 2013)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> I don't think that Mozart and Haydn had a relationship as close friends, but yes a nice teacher-student relationship with mutual respect.


Concerning the friendship of Mozart and Haydn and Playing together in a string quartet: a passage from Floyd Graves and Margaret Graves' seminal study, _The String Quartets of Joseph Haydn_ (Oxford University Press, 2006) p. 14:

"During the year in which the Op. 33 quartets were written [ = 1784], Mozart had come to live in Vienna, and before long the two composers met and became friends. Just when their first meeting occurred is not known. An early documented encounter, allegedly in 1784, involved a quartet party in which an illustrious foursome participated: Haydn and the violinist-composer Carl Ditters von Dittersdorf (1739-99) took the upper parts, while Mozart and Wanhal played the viola and cello, respectively."

Concerning Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets & Haydn's Response: from Graves and Graves, _String Quartets of Joseph Haydn_, , p. 14:

"Doubtless prompted by Haydn's recent accomplishment, Mozart began in late 1782 to undertake a corresponding new set of his own, comprising K. 387, 421, 428, 458, 464, and 465. When they were published by Artaria in 1785, an accompanying letter of dedication to Haydn described them as "the fruit of a long and laborious study," a confession borne out by the unusual amounts of crosshatching and alteration observable in the autograph manuscripts. Ambitious technically, superbly original, yet nevertheless steeped in Haydn's idiom, they must have made a deep impression on the older composer, who is likely to have felt challenged to reconsider, reflect, and absorb. Might he have heard Mozart's legato phrases, his mastery of chromaticism, or the streamlined pace of his common-time Allegros as signs of a newly enriched quartet style with which he must come to terms? And if so, might a certain amount of time have been required for him to assimilate before responding? Whether influenced by Mozart's enterprise or not, Haydn's next group of quartets was a departure from the more easygoing Op. 33. Completed in 1787 and now known as Op. 50, these works seem specially designed for connoisseurs. Informed by a degree of technical complexity recalling that of Op. 20, they represent a renewed commitment to the genre's patrician stature. Apart from their artistic aspirations, they merit notice as a chronological watershed in Haydn's engagement with the medium. Rather than composing quartets in spurts, interrupted by long periods of silence, Haydn now chose to award them a central place in his work as a composer of instrumental music."


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## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

jdec said:


> "100 years will pass before the world sees another talent like this" - Haydn on Mozart.
> 
> Haydn knew Mozart was the greatest of the two.


Well, I think this question is very subjective. Even Haydn's statements can't be taken as 'proof', since greatness also depends on the listeners and their standards for it. We've had these Haydn vs. Mozart debates before and this was not the topic of the thread. It is interesting to note that Mozart's letter bears many corrections - this means he might have been struggling with its deferential tone since he knew he was no lesser composer than Haydn.


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