# How best to listen in a noisy urban apt setting? I hate where I live! :(



## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

I love Beethoven. But I live in a crappy building in the center of the urban jungle in a time of Covid where everyone is staying in and making godless noise.

Yes, I have headphones. But sometimes I just need to hear my speakers! I have a very modest system but have it set up (speaker stands, toe-in positioning, etc) to optimize what glory I can extract from it. However the the noise of neighbors (more than a few are druggies) and traffic and sirens is always intruding.

How do you Classical Music lovers combat the insanity of the modern locked-down world in order to enjoy your systems?

I can't afford to soundproof my walls and anyway I'm only renting (on a budget) and not allowed to make physical alterations. I reached out to one company who told me to use neoprene panels (vs. those foamy eggshell things): https://www.foambymail.com/NE-HQ/neoprene-high-quality-foam-sheets.html

Would they really work??? Do I need to cover every inch? I suppose I can use 3M command strips to hold them up? I don't dare make a ton of holes. My manager is insane. My listening room walls (on either side) are approximately 15 ft across and 8 ft high.

I appreciate whatever tips or info anyone can provide to help out an LvB fan. Thanks!!!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

There are 3 options:
1. stop loving Beethoven
2. get noise-cancelling headphones
3. move to a quieter residence


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> There are 3 options:
> 1. stop loving Beethoven
> 2. get noise-cancelling headphones
> 3. move to a quieter residence


Option #2 is certainly the most reasonable. I just received a gift of a set of Soundcore Life Q30 headphones, which do a pretty amazing job of noise cancellation and sound decent.


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

GrosseFugue said:


> Would they really work??? Do I need to cover every inch?


No, they won't really work. Even if you covered every stinking square inch.

I'll concur with Hammered Klavier.

1. A good pair of noise-cancelling headphones, or

2. A couple decent bookshelf speakers that you can place on either side of your listening chair, about 4' away. Sort of 'oversized headphones' if you will. At moderate volume they'll block out most outside noise.

3. Do not give up on Ludwig Van. He went deaf for your sins.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

You can get noise-cancelling headphones or....... move to a quieter residence.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

As others have suggested, noise-cancelling headphones. And perhaps you should listen to dynamically compressed versions of Beethoven works (like you hear on the radio).

If you also listen to Baroque music, harpsichord music has a minimal dynamic range-- I sometimes listen to Bach's WTC, Goldberg Variations, or Art of Fugue when showering for this reason.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Only listen to An American in Paris.


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## Coach G (Apr 22, 2020)

I live on a main urban road and the traffic usually doesn't bother me when I'm listening to music or watching TV unless some fool is driving by and blasting their rap or dance music in every direction. It astounds me how some people think that the a whole neighborhood of strangers would be impressed with their car's unnecessarily and obscenely loud and sound system and their annoying taste in music. And even if the music were any good, how could they possibly enjoy it at such an unholy volume? Why would anyone do that except to draw attention to themselves?


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## NoCoPilot (Nov 9, 2020)

It's the peacock syndrome.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Those noise-cancelling headphones. Of course.
But ... keep in mind that the quality of your headphone gear should be on the upper level, as much as you can afford. If you have quality equipment that makes the music sound "better" (more real, more dynamic, more _there_, whatever) you'll not only enjoy the music more, you'll enjoy the headphone experience more (and maybe not treasure those speaker listening sessions so dearly).

I don't know much about noise-cancelling headphones except that I bought my wife a set of BOSE phones with noise-cancellation and she enjoys them (though she says they don't cut out everything). I do know they are no match in terms of sound quality for my two different pairs of regular over-the-ear phones, both by Sennheiser (HD 545 and HD 600). The Sennheisers are not the very top-line of available phones by any means, but they deliver enough listening pleasure that outside noise that leaks in seems rather insignificant in comparison to the quality of the musical sound. When the musical quality is high, one tends to ignore any noise. My experience, anyhow.

Too, better phones tend to be more comfortable. If your head and ears are annoyed by the physical feel of your phones, you'll not be able to fully concentrate on the music. Consider comfort.

Keep in mind that a good headphone system may rely upon a separate headphone amp. Most folks likely use the headphone output in their tuner or whatever. Such are seldom designed for utmost quality. A separate headphone amp which places between your source and amp or pre-amp can greatly improve your sound quality and thus your listening pleasure. My headphone amp is a tubed job by JoLida, and though not the most pricey instrument out there it does a good job of fleshing out the sound from my CD deck and turntable (both of which are also of decent quality). I recall a visitor once listening to my rig over my headphones through the tubed JoLida and afterwards saying the sound was "life altering".

So, if you want "life altering" Beethoven in your noisy apartment, consider investing in a quality headphone rig that will allow you to sit back in aural comfort and soak in a level of purity of music that will make all that extraneous street-noise shrink into insignificance.

And, when you move, you can easily pack up the stuff and take it with you to your new digs which, even if quieter, will still allow you to enjoy your Beethoven.


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## Christine (Sep 29, 2020)

Coach G said:


> I live on a main urban road and the traffic usually doesn't bother me when I'm listening to music or watching TV unless some fool is driving by and blasting their rap or dance music in every direction. It astounds me how some people think that the a whole neighborhood of strangers would be impressed with their car's unnecessarily and obscenely loud and sound system and their annoying taste in music. And even if the music were any good, how could they possibly enjoy it at such an unholy volume? Why would anyone do that except to draw attention to themselves?


I'm surprised you didn't also mention motorcyclists, especially several of them roaring down a road. This occurs far more frequently where I live. Ridiculously loud engines for no good reason than to show off. What these fools fail to realize is that the loudness of a man's engine is INversely proportional to the size of his manhood. I guess that's what they want the entire county to know? This also goes for souped-up engines in SUV's.

Acoustic blinds and acoustic curtains don't work. My solution -- for me, that is -- is I'm moving, though that's crappy advice to give someone who's on a tight budget.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Christine said:


> I'm surprised you didn't also mention motorcyclists, especially several of them roaring down a road. This occurs far more frequently where I live. Ridiculously loud engines for no good reason than to show off. What these fools fail to realize is that the loudness of a man's engine is INversely proportional to the size of his manhood. I guess that's what they want the entire county to know? This also goes for souped-up engines in SUV's.
> 
> ...


I drive my beloved little Ford Fiesta so...take it from there. :lol: :lol:


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I dare not use cheap sound insulate panels, the carcinogenic chemicals are very hard to avoid. I admit that I cannot afford good brands for now. Just buy reliable and affordable table speakers like I do, but my baroque and early music repertoirs never ask for much accoustical dynamic range, just for some refinedness and nauralness.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

SONNET CLV said:


> I recall a visitor once listening to my rig over my headphones through the tubed JoLida and afterwards saying the sound was "life altering".


Yes, I have a decent rig for headphone listening -- a Fiio K5 Pro amp and Grado 80's. I prefer Grado over Senns (have tried the HD 650's). Right now though my 80's are in disrepair and rather than pay the cost of fixing them I plan to upgrade to the 125's. Hopefully soon! *fingers crossed*

And yes, I also have noise cancelling cans (Sony WH-1000XM4). But the noise-cancelling feature affects the sound quality. They are great for when walking about, but pale to the quality of even my modest home system.

And the fact remains -- listening through cans is a different experience and I simply can't get the sort of soundstage as from speakers. Another poster mentioned putting the speakers quite closer, presumably directly in front of each ear. But that seems to defeat the point of listening to speakers at all.

I would surely move if I could! I'm in a rent-controlled place and the options for obtaining my own castle in the mountains is slim to none.

I wonder why no one has started a business for listening rooms? City-dwellers seeking immersion in their music being able to rent a sound-proof space per hour. And for an added fee you can use the in-house high-end audio systems. Please God, let someone create this in a time of lockdown and barbarism!


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

GrosseFugue said:


> Yes, I have a decent rig for headphone listening -- a Fiio K5 Pro amp and Grado 80's. I prefer Grado over Senns (have tried the HD 650's). Right now though my 80's are in disrepair and rather than pay the cost of fixing them I plan to upgrade to the 125's. Hopefully soon! *fingers crossed*
> 
> And yes, I also have noise cancelling cans (Sony WH-1000XM4). But the noise-cancelling feature affects the sound quality. They are great for when walking about, but pale to the quality of even my modest home system.
> 
> ...


There are over-ear (circumaural) closed-back headphones with a wide "soundstage" that do a better job of sound isolation than Grados (which rest on-ear) or Sennheiser's open-backed models. They can be connected via balanced cable, so do not suffer from any sound degradation like wireless NC headphones. They can also be driven simply from a good quality DAP, no amp. These would provide some of the escape from urban noise you seem to be seeking (your problem is the reverse of mine - I also live in an urban condo building with upstairs and downstairs neighbors, but my concern is bothering them with _my_ sound as opposed to the reverse).

My personal listening equipment is the Sony MDR-Z7 and the Sony WM1A Walkman. Sony's Z7 and Z1R are close-backed over-ear headphones that are known for their soundstage and visceral bass (something a good speaker system excels at). They can be had from $400 used for the Z7, $600 new for the Z7m2, and $1600 or so for the Z1R.

Hifiman offers planar magnetic headphones that are also circumaural and are known for soundstage and bass. The 400i is a steal at $170. The Hifiman Sundara is a nice upgrade option for $350. I have not tried them personally but they are reviewed very well. They may have more sound leakage from the outside, though.

All of these headphones are low enough impedance to be driven well from a good quality wired DAP - good examples of which can be had from the $200-$600 range (brands like Fiio, Astell and Kern, HiBy, Pioneer, and Sony)

Anyway, if intrusive outside noise is your issue, and wireless NC headphones are not high quality enough (which I totally get), good circumaural headphones are my recommendation. Grados are high quality headphones to be sure, but not surrounding the ear completely is an issue if isolation is your goal.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Hifiman offers planar magnetic headphones that are also circumaural and are known for soundstage and bass. The 400i is a steal at $170. The Hifiman Sundara is a nice upgrade option for $350. I have not tried them personally but they are reviewed very well. They may have more sound leakage from the outside, though.


Drop.com carries their own model of the 400i and it does look nice: https://drop.com/buy/drop-hifiman-he4xx-planar-magnetic-headphones#overview

I'll consider it if the soundstage is truly awesome. I hate that "in-ear" feeling I get after awhile. Though I do like the Grado sound signature. Hopefully it's similar.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion!


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

My limited experience with closed back headphones is that the soundstage is lacking against decent open backs - but they will reduce outside noise intrusion. Its a trade off in your situation.
I too have Grado headphones (SR325e) and their openness and soundstage is hard to beat at the price.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

The only noise-cancelling headphones I've ever owned that bear comparison with well designed non-NC headphones for sound quality were the PSB M4U-2s. They have other problems - quality control (although mine survived for 7 years), bulky design making them impractical for travel, and and less effective noise reduction compared with Bose and Sony. PSB has now released the PSB M4U-8, which appears to have resolved some of these issues (although they remain bulky). They are over-ear, closed-back phones (with NC). At the current Amazon price, they are definitely worth checking out.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I suppose if sound isolation in a noisy place is the goal, one solution would be a modular room like music students use to practice. Wenger makes them, the smallest is about 6 x 4. https://www.wengercorp.com/sound-isolation/soundlok-sound-isolation-rooms.php

Or ask Miracle Ear who makes their sound isolation booths. Either would be expensive and challenging to fit into an apartment. Sadly, constant noise has become part of like everywhere. If you want quiet, move to a small town in central Wyoming, or Montana, South Dakota, Iowa or other low-population state.


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

Our townhome isn't very soundproof, but it's a fairly quiet neighborhood. We are under a flight route, and a lot of our neighbors have replaced their windows with double-pane windows, which helps a great deal.

I imagine that the urban noise is probably comparable to trying to listen in the car. The cheaper your auto, the more likely that "road noise" will affect your listening. In the car I get plenty annoyed listening to CDs with wide variations of volume changes. 

Are there any automobile solutions that might be applicable to home listening?


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## pianozach (May 21, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> I suppose if sound isolation in a noisy place is the goal, one solution would be a modular room like music students use to practice. Wenger makes them, the smallest is about 6 x 4. https://www.wengercorp.com/sound-isolation/soundlok-sound-isolation-rooms.php
> 
> Or ask Miracle Ear who makes their sound isolation booths. Either would be expensive and challenging to fit into an apartment. Sadly, constant noise has become part of like everywhere. If you want quiet, move to a small town in central Wyoming, or Montana, South Dakota, Iowa or other low-population state.


I used to work as a courier, and occasionally would have to drive to (and through) some remote locations. I do remember one time I actively tried to seek out a quiet spot away from civilized noise. No luck. In places away from highway noise, there is always air traffic, which is even more annoying when not accompanied by the distraction of urban noise.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

You need bigger speakers.

My dad (an electrician) worked for radio stations, and once when one of the stations had purchased new speakers for their large outdoor events (like tailgating) they gave him some of their old ones, which had no flaws except being old. So I had these two massive speakers that were absolutely insane. Each of them were about four feet high, two feet wide. They would literally hurt if you were too close.

So once in college the guys upstairs from us were playing their music too loud, at least in my roommate's opinion, and it really annoyed him. I was like, I can take care of that if you want. He said let's do it. So I hooked them up and put on the Kronos Quartet's recording of Crumb's _Black Angels_. We ran out with our hands over our ears, got some soda or something, and by the time we got back the music upstairs had stopped, and it never came on too loud again....

Moral of the story: I recommend that the OP learn electronics and start working for radio stations. Eventually his day will come.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

pianozach said:


> I used to work as a courier, and occasionally would have to drive to (and through) some remote locations. I do remember one time I actively tried to seek out a quiet spot away from civilized noise. No luck. In places away from highway noise, there is always air traffic, which is even more annoying when not accompanied by the distraction of urban noise.


I know what you mean; anywhere there's civilization there's noise it seems. I used to spend my summers in the wilds of way-western Wyoming miles from any town. My days were filled with the sounds of birds, chipmunks and a babbling stream. It was heaven. Only an occasional chain saw would disrupt my peace and quiet. I used a relatively high-end headphone set up from HeadRoom up in Bozeman. The other affliction of modern society was also left behind: light pollution. So I could spend my evenings listening to Mahler, looking at the universe with my old 6" reflector telescope and drinking a nice scotch.


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## Christine (Sep 29, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> I suppose if sound isolation in a noisy place is the goal, one solution would be a modular room like music students use to practice. Wenger makes them, the smallest is about 6 x 4. https://www.wengercorp.com/sound-isolation/soundlok-sound-isolation-rooms.php
> 
> Or ask Miracle Ear who makes their sound isolation booths. Either would be expensive and challenging to fit into an apartment. Sadly, constant noise has become part of like everywhere. If you want quiet, move to a small town in central Wyoming, or Montana, South Dakota, Iowa or other low-population state.


The problem with small towns is that the "small town mentality" is that everyone wants to know all about your personal life, and if you lock your doors overnight, they think something's wrong with you. Thoroughly vet the area where you want to move. Visit on all days, all times, to see if any particular times generate excessive noise. It's amazing what you'd never consider until you move there and then it's too late.

For example, a nearby daycare center will mean hearing screaming kids all day long. If you're near a shopping center, you'll get awakened by lot sweeping machines in the middle of the night. Don't move near a cul-de-sac. Noisy people (kids, adults) congregate in it on warm days. Grown men use it as a playground to screech the tires of their cars. Drunks hang there to party at 2 am. I've witnessed it all. Don't move near a diner that has live bands. You'll end up hearing what sounds like giant toddlers banging on giant pots and pans on weekends.

Don't move near a Harley superstore. One was built a mile or so from my home, after I moved in. On Fridays, Sats and Suns it hosts events that attract bikers from all over. They use the main road near my home to go to and from. It's rumbling all weekend long; can't enjoy my music or concentrate on my piano.

If you look hard enough, you'll find a place that's not near any of these intrusions, yet is also not in the sticks, either. Somewhere in between.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

NoCoPilot said:


> No, they won't really work. Even if you covered every stinking square inch.
> 
> I'll concur with Hammered Klavier.
> 
> ...


I'm basically doing your #2 suggestion. My current set-up resembles this: https://uturnaudio.com/pages/speaker-placement
Bookshelf speakers placed equidistance apart and about four feet from me, creating a "triangle" of sound with me at the apex.

I suppose I could pull up a chair and position the speakers directly in front of each ear. But doesn't that defeat the point of using speakers? The sound field created is more like cans.

I don't know. I think I've maxed out what I can do home stereo-wise. And don't want to get larger speakers as playing louder is not my objective. Just want to enjoy LvB at moderate volume, otherwise I start "sound wars" with the maniacs in my building. I remember one guy two floors above who placed his TV against his neighbor's wall and left it on MAX VOLUME then left for the whole day. The noise was such that even through the air vents two floors down the sound came roaring in. Insanity. Welcome to the city.


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## GrosseFugue (Nov 30, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> I used to spend my summers in the wilds of way-western Wyoming miles from any town. My days were filled with the sounds of birds, chipmunks and a babbling stream. It was heaven. Only an occasional chain saw would disrupt my peace and quiet. I used a relatively high-end headphone set up from HeadRoom up in Bozeman. The other affliction of modern society was also left behind: light pollution. So I could spend my evenings listening to Mahler, looking at the universe with my old 6" reflector telescope and drinking a nice scotch.


Sounds like a slice of heaven.

Can I be you when I grow up?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> I know what you mean; anywhere there's civilization there's noise it seems. I used to spend my summers in the wilds of way-western Wyoming miles from any town. My days were filled with the sounds of birds, chipmunks and a babbling stream. It was heaven. Only an occasional chain saw would disrupt my peace and quiet. I used a relatively high-end headphone set up from HeadRoom up in Bozeman. The other affliction of modern society was also left behind: light pollution. So I could spend my evenings listening to Mahler, looking at the universe with my old 6" reflector telescope and drinking a nice scotch.


Wyoming?

I was born in Torrington and later lived in Ten Sleep and Worland. Now my mom lives in Gillette.

Great place to be a kid, and great place to visit as an adult. I don't think I'd want to live there as an adult. Maybe in old age.


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