# Composers Who You Still Haven't Got Around To Listening To Yet



## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Who are some composers that have been lingering around your head or on your "to do" lists but still haven't got around to checking their music out yet?


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Jean Sibelius, and he's been on my mind since being on these forums seeing as how many people here love him to death. But something always keeps me from listening to him.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

JoeGreen said:


> Jean Sibelius, and he's been on my mind since being on these forums seeing as how many people here love him to death. But something always keeps me from listening to him.


Seems like not too many like him here...

Have you heard ANY Sibelius, Joe?


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Perhaps, but it would have been unknowingly. But never with the intent of listening to Sibelius specifically. I'm sure I'll get to him..eventually.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Hmmm, I wonder how one goes through their classical career not hearing much Sibelius. Well, I hope that you will like what you hear Joe...you know how near and dear he is to me.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

yeah, well that's me in a nutshell.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

As much music as I have, there's still so much I have to learn and experience.

Assuming you mean not too obscure, I'd like to learn more about:

*Tchaikovsky* -- believe it or not, I have utterly ignored this popular composer for no particular reason other than I haven't got around to it yet. Of course I've heard his huge hits, but I can't say I really listened in the way required to understand them.

*César Franck *-- another big name I've neglected. I heard I think one piece of his on the radio years ago, but at the time I was so into baroque, and whatever piece I heard I felt was too overblown romantic, that I never paid attention again.

Here is a list form ArkivMusic's "Most Popular composers" that I've never heard that I am aware of:

*Vincenzo Bellini* - mostly opera and that may be why
*Ernst Bloch* - I couldn't even tell you the time period 
*Léo Delibes *- I keep getting the name mixed up with Delius who I am familiar with.
*Gaetano Donizetti* - clueless about this
*Manuel de Falla* - clueless
*Fritz Kreisler* - who?
*Franz Lehár* - ??
*Manuel Ponce* - I seem to be neglecting the Spanish composers, or those with Spanish sounding names
*Einojuhani Rautavaara* - never heard of this person, but he or she made the most popular list.
*Pablo de Sarasate *

The rest of the list , comprising some 100 composers, I can safely say I am familiar with or at least heard a few times.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Einojuhani Rautavaara is a he, and probably the dean of all living Finnish composers.I believe he is in his 80s now.

He knew Jean Sibelius and, after the Finnish mater passed on to the other side in 1957, the proverbial torch was passed to Rautavaara to be THE Finnish composer.

Of course, Rautavaara is hardly the only noteworthy Finnish composer since Sibelius, but as I mentioned, he sort of has taken on the "great grand daddy" status of them all.

His music is atonal and avant-garde, but in a very gentle, musical way. He has written some great modernist symphonies. Perhaps his most famous work is Cantus Arcticus for Birds and Orchestra. Over Rautavaara's sumptuous orchestral score is a tape he made of birds at a Finnish bog. The sounds thus created are remarkable.

I recommend Rautavaara with much crazed abandon.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Apart from a few previews via Amazon clips, I've not really heard anything from the following (at least I don't have any CDs from them), and I think I really should:

Gliere
Ifukube & Akutagawa (CDs on their way though)
Myaskovsky
Tippett (2 CDs on their way)
Cui
Bax (CD waiting for me in UK)
Ginastera
Hummell
Szymanowski 
Berio
Maxwell Davies
Šulek 
Rubbra
Liefs

Some of these I've only noted due to other's enthusiasm for them on this forum.


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## Rasa (Apr 23, 2009)

> Hmmm, I wonder how one goes through their classical career not hearing much Sibelius. Well, I hope that you will like what you hear Joe...you know how near and dear he is to me.


Here in Belgium, he's rarely played or even heard on the radio...


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Verdi and Wagner. I just don't know how to start listening to operas ;S


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

The composer that I haven't gotten around to auditioning yet, and feel most _guilty_ about not having done so, is SOFIA GUBAIDULINA.

I really have to make some time for the most prominent female composer since _Hildegard_ was weaving her Norny mysteries 9 centuries ago...


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## mueske (Jan 14, 2009)

Rasa said:


> Here in Belgium, he's rarely played or even heard on the radio...


I can confirm this! Belgium = Bach-land! 

I have, for some reason unknown 'ignored' Schubert. I have only listened to 1 piano sonata and his ninth symphony.

I'm also very unfamiliar with English composers. Other than some Haendel (if he counts as English) and Elgar's cello concerto, I haven't heard much from English composers.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Let's start with the "Are you serious, you haven't listened to bla yet? Listening to bla will change your life. I recommend bla, bla, bla, and bla..." composers:

Langgaard - Oh, here we go with the suggestions...
Ifukube - I listened once, and got tired of him. Guess I have to listen again.
Rautavaara - He's a serialist, isn't he, hmm....
Penderecki - I guess I'm not good with those 21th century composers.
Leoncavallo - I've heard fragments of Pagliacci, and that's all I want to hear.

Others on my to do list:

Ockeghem - What?
Cowell - Just heard about him from another member, sounds interesting.
Auric - The only one of Les Six I haven't heard, surprisingly...
Durufle - Not really a big fan of organ music.
Schuman - Is that a typo?


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Aramis said:


> Verdi and Wagner. I just don't know how to start listening to operas ;S


Well they aren't necessarily the only opera composers, maybe you can take one of your personal favorites, then see if they composed an opera and try listening to that.


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## JoeGreen (Nov 17, 2008)

ah, I guess here's another big one, Haydn. Nothing against him just haven't been able to get to him.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

Roger Sessions
Bohuslav Martinu (only heard a couple of songs, but that doesn't count)
Ikufube (Tapkaara has really peaked my interest.. just haven't got around to it)
Brian Ferneyhough
Alan Hovhaness
Glinka (don't know why I've never heard him :S)
Balakirev (read Glinka)
Arthur Bliss (have a few CDs right here on listening queue, though)
William Walton
Ernst Toch
Walter Piston
Roy Harris
Hugo Alfvén

ok, i'm done


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

There's any number of composers I should be introducing myself to. Let me think of the more salient ones:

Puccini - Aside from Turandot and his Messa, I am not familiar with his other operas. Not a bif opera guy, so that may have something to do with it!

Verdi - Like above. I know the famous snippets from the operas (big march from Aida, Anvil Chorus from Il Trovatore, etc.)

Ives - Seemingly popular American composer, but I heard one work of his on the radio months back and was singularly unimpressed.

Rubbra - Have heard nothin but good about him, so one of these days, I feel I must take the plunge.

Beach - Have also heard nothing but good about her.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

airad2 said:


> Ifukube - I listened once, and got tired of him. Guess I have to listen again.


Fair enough...do you remember what you heard?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

mueske said:


> I'm also very unfamiliar with English composers. Other than some Haendel (if he counts as English) and Elgar's cello concerto, I haven't heard much from English composers.


Vaughan-Williams will likely not disappoint you. Most accessible. The same for Holst.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Beach - Have also heard nothing but good about her.


I find her good, enjoyable enough, but not life changing.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Einojuhani Rautavaara is a he, and probably the dean of all living Finnish composers.I believe he is in his 80s now.
> . . .
> 
> His music is atonal and avant-garde, but in a very gentle, musical way. He has written some great modernist symphonies. Perhaps his most famous work is Cantus Arcticus for Birds and Orchestra. Over Rautavaara's sumptuous orchestral score is a tape he made of birds at a Finnish bog. The sounds thus created are remarkable.
> ...


Thank you. This sounds very interesting. I'll put him on my to do list.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Ives - Seemingly popular American composer, but I heard one work of his on the radio months back and was singularly unimpressed.
> 
> Rubbra - Have heard nothin but good about him, so one of these days, I feel I must take the plunge.
> 
> Beach - Have also heard nothing but good about her.


These three composers are definitely worth checking out, especially Rubbra. Rubbra just gets better day by day. He's different though as he was a very what I call "moment to moment" composer where discovery is important and gives his work a very different feel.

Beach wrote some good music. Most notably her "Gaelic Symphony."

Ives has always been one of my favorites even before I got heavily into classical. I still go back and listen to his Symphony No. 2, which in my opinion is his best, "The Unanswered Question," "Holidays Symphony," "3 Pieces in New England," and "Orchestral Sets." He's out there, cooky, out of his mind, but that's Ives for ya.


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## agoukass (Dec 1, 2008)

I still need to get a John Adams fix at some point in time. I will probably get the Violin Concerto and Transmigration of Souls.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

agoukass said:


> I still need to get a John Adams fix at some point in time. I will probably get the Violin Concerto and Transmigration of Souls.


I would direct you rather to the Rattle recording of Harmonielehre, Chairman Dances and Two Fanfares, as well as the Nonesuch release of Century Rolls with Lollapalooza and Slonimsky's Earbox.. But those two works are great as well! Adams is awesome..


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Rubbra just sounds too much like rhbarb, but maybe his symphonies are steaming and delicious...like fresh baked rhubarb pie.

Pie. Yes. Pie.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Rubbra just sounds too much like rhbarb, but maybe his symphonies are steaming and delicious...like fresh baked rhubarb pie.
> 
> Pie. Yes. Pie.


 Well, you still need to hear him. He was one of the major British 20th Century symphonists.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Rubbra just sounds too much like rhbarb, but maybe his symphonies are steaming and delicious...like fresh baked rhubarb pie.
> 
> Pie. Yes. Pie.


I prefer rhubarb crumble.


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*In fear of Showing my Ignorance....*

Khachaturian
Kodaly
Gliere
Moeran
Bliss
Bax
Finzi
Fibich
Halvorsen
Jarnefelt
Kilar
Suk
Balakivev
Langgaard
Berwald
Zemlinsky
Grofe
Chadwick
Crumb
Rochberg
Enescu
Wolf
Loewe
Bazzini

There is always tomorrow.....a new day another composer to study.

Thanks


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

kg4fxg said:


> Khachaturian
> Kodaly
> Gliere
> Moeran
> ...


That's great! It looks like you're picking up a lot from this forum like I'm doing. I admire anybody who loves to learn new things willingly and without shame. You needn't gulf it down though, take it at your own pace, and never let others "get in your face."

I've learned so much here... like I would have never rediscovered the genius of Pachelbel's Canon if I hadn't come here...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> Khachaturian
> Kodaly
> Gliere
> Moeran
> ...


That's quite a great list, especially for the English composers. Bliss, Finzi, and Bax are three of my favorite English composers next to Elgar and Vaughan Williams. May I suggest John Ireland to you as well. I think you'll find his music quite enjoyable as well.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

some composers who ive neglected due to passing judgement based on hearing only one or two works i find unattractive or mediocre - i know thats bad which is why i must investigate...

britten
faure
berlioz
copland
delius
de falla
finzi
khachaturian
puolenc
walton

and these are composers into whom ive dipped my toe and are genuilinely enthusiastic about investigating due to liking what ive heard -

martinu
bantock
moeran
schumann
schoenberg
franck
suk
rautavvara
ligeti


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

JAKE WYB said:


> some composers who ive neglected due to passing judgement based on hearing only one or two works i find unattractive or mediocre - i know thats bad which is why i must investigate...
> 
> britten
> faure
> ...


I'm surprised by this particular list. I like all of these composers except for Khachaturian who right now I'm just lukewarm about.

You will love Britten, Berlioz, Faure, Finzi, Poulenc, and Copland once you start digging into their works and try to fully understand them.

I never thought I would like Poulenc, but he's turned into one of my favorites. Britten has become one of my absolutely favorites as well. I've been a fan of Berlioz for quite some time now, so I loved his works from the beginning. "Symphonie Fantastique" was the first piece I heard and then I was hooked from that point forward.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> I'm surprised by this particular list. I like all of these composers except for Khachaturian who right now I'm just lukewarm about.
> 
> You will love Britten, Berlioz, Faure, Finzi, Poulenc, and Copland once you start digging into their works and try to fully understand them.
> 
> I never thought I would like Poulenc, but he's turned into one of my favorites. Britten has become one of my absolutely favorites as well. I've been a fan of Berlioz for quite some time now, so I loved his works from the beginning. "Symphonie Fantastique" was the first piece I heard and then I was hooked from that point forward.


I'm surprised you are lukewarm about Khachaturian. I love him.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I'm surprised you are lukewarm about Khachaturian. I love him.


Really? Why are you surprised? Perhaps I need to spend more time with him. I've already heard "Spartacus," "Gayaneh," and "Masquerade," but I should really go back and listen to him some more before I completely write him off.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Really? Why are you surprised? Perhaps I need to spend more time with him. I've already heard "Spartacus," "Gayaneh," and "Masquerade," but I should really go back and listen to him some more before I completely write him off.


Well, I know you like a lot of Romantic composers and Khachaturian is often as romantic and over-the-top as they come. Just seems like it would be an obvious choice for you!


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Well, I know you like a lot of Romantic composers and Khachaturian is often as romantic and over-the-top as they come. Just seems like it would be an obvious choice for you!


Romantic and 20th Century composers take up most of CD collection with a few Classical and Baroque composers scattered throughout.


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*Thanks*

Thanks airad2 & MI and others for all the wonderful suggestions.

Yes, I love this forum - it has given me a whole new world to explore. It will take time but I want exposure to these wonderful composers. It is a whole new world of music out there!


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Tapkaara said:


> Well, I know you like a lot of Romantic composers and Khachaturian is often as romantic and over-the-top as they come. Just seems like it would be an obvious choice for you!


Over-the-top is right! Like including a flexatone in his 2nd piano concerto. Interesting sound though. I like his orchestral works more - and Spartacus is my favourite ballet to watch - it's a shame the full score doesn't seem to be available (normally only the suite), because there's some dynamic stuff in there.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> Einojuhani Rautavaara is a he, and probably the dean of all living Finnish composers. . .
> Perhaps his most famous work is Cantus Arcticus for Birds and Orchestra. Over Rautavaara's sumptuous orchestral score is a tape he made of birds at a Finnish bog. The sounds thus created are remarkable.


Niiiiiiice . . . ! I just experienced this today. It's perfect for me. thank you again.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Weston said:


> Niiiiiiice . . . ! I just experienced this today. It's perfect for me. thank you again.


You hear the Cantus? Awesome...wonderful work, is it not?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I would like to get into Malcolm Arnold's music more. I haven't heard a note from him, but our fellow member Rondo really likes his music, so maybe he can turn me onto Arnold.

Another composer who I have been meaning to checkout is Novak (a Czech composer and contemporary of Suk's). I would also like to checkout some of Stenhammar's and Sinding's music. Both are Nordic composers.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm generally not aware of too many *South or North American Composers*. I've just discovered Piazolla, Villa-Lobos, Ramirez, Hovhaness, Carter, Cowell, but I'm interested in getting some:

*Ives
Grofe
Barber * - have only heard the_ Violin Concerto & Adagio for strings_
*Copland *(esp. the earlier works, like _Piano Concerto_)*
Diamond
Ginastera
More Brazilian composers*

As for were I live, *Australia*, I've just recently gotten into Sculthorpe, Sutherland, Hughes, Dean, Conyngham, Kats-Chernin, but I'd also like to get some *Carl Vine *especially.

As for Europe:

*Rautavaara
Langgaard
Rubbra* - have got his _Violin Concerto_, haven't heard any of his symphonies yet
*Sibelius* - chamber music as I like his tone poems especially
More contemporary European composers like *Luytens, Berio, Boulez, Kurtag, Ligeti *(I tried listening to *Xenakis* in a cd shop & found it unlistenable noise - did he do something that was a bit more approachable?)

Asia: *Chinese pieces*, eg. the _Butterfly Lovers Concerto_

& maybe down the track, *C20th solo piano repertoire*, eg. Ravel, Bartok, Berg, Prokofiev, etc, as I enjoy their orchestral works...


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## bdelykleon (May 21, 2009)

Andre said:


> but I'm interested in getting some:
> 
> *More Brazilian composers*


Mozart Camargo Guarnieri is your man. He is our second best composer, but much more regular than Villa Lobos, his symphonies and the Vila-Rica Suite are great to begin with. Take a look on this overture, please ignore the opening statement in POrtuguese:





and the opening of the suite:


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

bdelykleon said:


> Mozart Camargo Guarnieri is your man.


Thanks, that's probably who I was thinking of as I've seen you talk about him before. I saw his _Piano Concertos _on a Naxos cd, that's on my wish list...

I'll also watch those videos you posted at some stage later, when I have access to a computer with those facilities. The one I'm on now doesn't, unfortunately...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre, you definitely should try and acquire some more Barber.  There's a great series with Marin Alsop and the Royal Scottish National Orchestra on Naxos that I'm crazy about now. It's really fantastic and has gained international acclaim. There are 6 volumes and it's a complete survey of his orchestral works. Trust me, you'll love it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Andre, you definitely should try and acquire some more Barber.  There's a great series with Marin Alsop and the Royal Scottish National Orchestra on Naxos that I'm crazy about now...


Yes, these very recordings are on my to-get list. As is more Hovhaness & some Grofe. & I have to get Copland's _Piano Concerto_, as I said. Listened to it 10 years ago & it's still very memorable. There's so many good things in the Naxos American Classics series...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> Yes, these very recordings are on my to-get list. As is more Hovhaness & some Grofe. & I have to get Copland's _Piano Concerto_, as I said. Listened to it 10 years ago & it's still very memorable. There's so many good things in the Naxos American Classics series...


Yes and don't forget Thomson, Beach, Creston, Chadwick, Foote (although most chamber works, but still good nonetheless), Piston, etc. They composed some outstanding music as well.


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

I've got three composers that I really want to look into:

William Billings- part of my study of American "art music"
Alfonso X- for the Spanish mysticism
George Rochberg- I've been meaning to listen to his quartets


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Tapkaara said:


> You hear the Cantus? Awesome...wonderful work, is it not?


Yes. I listened to it via my Rhapsody account. It is the version on this album:










I haven't listened to the other two works on the album yet, but the Cantus was enough to get me to order it. The Swans Migrating segment is one of the more epic pieces I've heard in a long time. This is how 20th / 21st century music should sound.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Cantus Arcticus is unmitigated *****. Cheesy, diatonic, hollywood strings with a bird soundtrack. You'd have to be deaf to think this acoustic wallpaper is worth more than thirty seconds of attention.


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

Tell us what you really think, bach old chum, don't mince your words!


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

I think it's rubbish, that's what I really think. Your time would be better spent listening to Michael Jackson.


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## JAKE WYB (May 28, 2009)

i discovered this piece on bbc radio 3 through the night last night - thats a bloody gold mine for brilliant discoveries -

polish composer called
*ROZYCKI *
never heard of him but a long rachmaninovvian tone poem called
*Anheli* - not the most individual of voices but dramatic and beautifully crafted dark but beautiful music - easy to listen to not like most sickly chromatic music you usuallly get from minor composers - so ill be looking out for his stuff - anyboidy heard of him?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Bach said:


> Cantus Arcticus is unmitigated *****. Cheesy, diatonic, hollywood strings with a bird soundtrack. You'd have to be deaf to think this acoustic wallpaper is worth more than thirty seconds of attention.


That is just patently untrue, Bach.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Apart from hating all forms of 'electronic' art music, Cantus Arcticus is harmonically unadventurous and has a film music aesthetic.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Bach said:


> Apart from hating all forms of 'electronic' art music, Cantus Arcticus is harmonically unadventurous and has a film music aesthetic.


So is it your contention that a requisite for all good music must be "harmonic adverturousness?" What if the composer purposefully wants to stick to more traditional harmonies? Why is that a bad thing?


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Just makes it pastiche and boring.. in common with commercial music it aims for popular success by founding it on familiar grounds above artistic significance. In the modern era, when any desired soundworld is available, it seems cheap to purposefully imitate someone else’s rather than discovering your own. Harmony is merely noise to be manipulated – There is nothing either inherently beautiful or ugly, but thinking makes it so. Diatonicism is no more correct than anything else, but it is more familiar and it is therefore far harder to achieve freshness within its confines. If modern music lacks harmonic, melodic or rhythmic individuality then what merits can it have? Expressing previously explored, ‘hollywood’ emotions is meaningless in modern art. Originality and freedom of expression is what should be strived for. Shoving a tape recording of some effing birds to drown out your lukewarm symphonic pap does not qualify as original expression but rather the lack thereof.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Apart from hating all forms of 'electronic' art music, Cantus Arcticus is harmonically unadventurous and has a film music aesthetic.


I also don't like "electronic art music," either, in fact, I think it's an insult to the musicians to play a piece that calls to setup a machine that plays bird calls or whatever next to a string section or brass section. What a bunch of crap.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

Thank you! My sentiment entirely! If you want to evoke birdsong, then do what Messiaen did (although - don't, because that would be unoriginal).


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> I also don't like "electronic art music," either, in fact, I think it's an insult to the musicians to play a piece that calls to setup a machine that plays bird calls or whatever next to a string section or brass section. What a bunch of crap.


Jazz is a bunch of crap, thank you very much.


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## Bach (Jun 2, 2008)

No it's not - Jazz is emotional spontaneity at it's most intense.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Bach said:


> No it's not - Jazz is emotional spontaneity at it's most intense.


Well, I think it's crap.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Jazz is a bunch of crap, thank you very much.


So is anything Philip Glass composed. Ridiculous bunch of garbage or any composer of so called "Minimalism." That's just a nice name for a style of music that's aimed at musically illiterate people.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Jazz is crap.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Bach said:


> Thank you! My sentiment entirely! If you want to evoke birdsong, then do what Messiaen did (although - don't, because that would be unoriginal).


Yes, why generate the sound of something when you can do on your own instrument. A whole string section can make a whole bunch of different sounds and put that with the woodwinds, brass, and various percussion and you have an amazing array of sound possibilities.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Jazz is crap.


 That still doesn't change the fact that Philip Glass, John Adams, Steve Reich, Arvo Part...are a bunch of hacks with no idea of how to compose a piece of music.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

There's some good jazz and there's some crap jazz - same with any type of music really. And to deny the use of electronic instruments or sounds in music is to deny a great deal of the development of music during the twentieth century. The idea that anything is completely original is also larger a non-starter, every composer has influences from something. Just to criticize music based on it's style instead of the individual musical substance seems short-sighted too.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> That still doesn't change the fact that Philip Glass, John Adams, Steve Reich, Arvo Part...are a bunch of hacks with no idea of how to compose a piece of music.


That is obviously a untrue statement. They know how to compose music. A fairer statement would be "I don't like their music."

I don't like Schönberg, but clearly the man know how to write music. For me to say he could not write music would be ignorance on my part.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> That is obviously a untrue statement. They know how to compose music. A fairer statement would be "I don't like their music."
> 
> I don't like Schönberg, but clearly the man know how to write music. For me to say he could not write music would be ignorance on my part.


Minimalism isn't music. It gives the impression of music, but isn't. Glass, Adams, Reich, all of these Minimalism composers are hacks, I especially despise Glass. That guy doesn't have a clue about music.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Minimalism isn't music. It gives the impression of music, but isn't. Glass, Adams, Reich, all of these Minimalism composers are hacks, I especially despise Glass. That guy doesn't have a clue about music.


We know your views on Minimalism, and they have been noted.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

starry said:


> There's some good jazz and there's some crap jazz - same with any type of music really. And to deny the use of electronic instruments or sounds in music is to deny a great deal of the development of music during the twentieth century. The idea that anything is completely original is also larger a non-starter, every composer has influences from something. Just to criticize music based on it's style instead of the individual musical substance seems short-sighted too.


Do I care what kind of advancement there is in 20th Century composition? No I don't and let me say playing something on a keyboard that triggers moose sounds isn't my idea of advancement in music. If you can't use real instruments to play music, then I don't want to hear it.

This is my opinion whether you like it or not doesn't bother me. It takes a lot to impress me and electronic bird sounds don't impress me at all.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> We know your views on Minimalism, and they have been noted.


We know your views on jazz and they have been noted, but bare in mind you're talking about a completely different genre of music. At least, I'm talking about classical music or a style of rather.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> We know your views on jazz and they have been noted, but bare in mind you're talking about a completely different genre of music. At least, I'm talking about classical music or a style of rather.


What does it matter if we are talking about a different genre of music?


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Mirror Image said:


> Do I care what kind of advancement there is in 20th Century composition? No I don't and let me say playing something on a keyboard that triggers moose sounds isn't my idea of advancement in music. If you can't use real instruments to play music, then I don't want to hear it.
> 
> This is my opinion whether you like it or not doesn't bother me. It takes a lot to impress me and electronic bird sounds don't impress me at all.


Not 'advancement' just development, I don't want to take an evolutionary approach to music. Music just changes it doesn't necessarily get better (or worse).


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

starry said:


> Not 'advancement' just development, I don't want to take an evolutionary approach to music. Music just changes it doesn't necessarily get better (or worse).


When you start using fake sounds to generate animal noises that's where I draw the line. I'm sorry, but it's just ridiculous.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> When you start using fake sounds to generate animal noises that's where I draw the line. I'm sorry, but it's just ridiculous.


Have you heard Cantus Arcticus?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> What does it matter if we are talking about a different genre of music?


What's this "we" crap, Tapkaara? You're the one who brought up jazz in the first place and called it crap remember? Nobody even mentioned jazz, but you brought it up, so if you're going to insult something, insult something you know something about. Stick to what you know, Tapkaara.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Have you heard Cantus Arcticus?


Yes, I have. Next question.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> if you're going to insult something, insult something you know something about. Stick to what you know, Tapkaara.


Perhaps that's why you should keep your comments about Minimalism to a "minimum" (pun not intended).

My comments about jazz are every bit as valid as yours on Minimalism or anything else you don't like.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Yes, I have. Next question.


My next question is: What do you find so offensive about it? The taped bird sounds?


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Perhaps that's why you should keep your comments about Minimalism to a "minimum" (pun not intended).
> 
> My comments about jazz are every bit as valid as yours on Minimalism or anything else you don't like.


Stick to what you know Tapkaara. You know nothing about jazz.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> My next question is: What do you find so offensive about it? The taped bird sounds?


I think Rautavaara is a cheap thrill composer. His music does nothing for me. As for the taped bird sounds....I just think that's stupid. Next question....


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Stick to what you know Tapkaara. You know nothing about jazz.


Jtech, you may know more about jazz than I do, but I still think it's crap.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> I think Rautavaara is a cheap thrill composer. His music does nothing for me. As for the taped bird sounds....I just think that's stupid. Next question....


Fair enough.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Jtech, you may know more about jazz than I do, but I still think it's crap


Can you compose jazz music? Can you improvise on an instrument?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Can you compose jazz music? Can you improvise on an instrument?


No I cannot compose jazz music. But I don't see what that has to do with my natural, in-born aversion to it.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> No I cannot compose jazz music. But I don't see what that has to do with my natural, in-born aversion to it.


What all of this has to do with is your lack of understanding of improvisation. If you don't understand improvisation and how crucial it is to the art form, then of course you're going to call it crap.

What instrument do you play?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> What all of this has to do with is your lack of understanding of improvisation. If you don't understand improvisation and how crucial it is to the art form, then of course you're going to call it crap.
> 
> What instrument do you play?


I know what improvisation is and how it applies to jazz. I still don't like what jazz sounds like.

The instruments I play or don't play have nothing to do with my distaste for jazz.

If I may say, it's really unfortunate that it's OK for you (and others) to call music they don't like crap or composers they don't like hacks, but the moment someone uses the same word (in this case, "crap") to describe a type of music that is dear to you, I am told to stick to what I know, my knowledge of intruments is called into question, etc.

I have no problem with you, MI, calling Philip Glass a hack who doesn't know how to compose music, or works like Cantus Arcticus stupid or whatever. But if you are allowed to use strong language to describe music you don't like, you should not get so upset and nasty towards others when they use similar words to describe music that is near and dear to you.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I know what improvisation is and how it applies to jazz. I still don't like what jazz sounds like.
> 
> The instruments I play or don't play have nothing to do with my distaste for jazz.
> 
> ...


My question to you is what does jazz have to do with me or Bach calling a classical composer that we don't like crap? You clearly may understand our logic, but with your logic you're bringing in a genre of music that has nothing to do with the conversation. At least when I criticize music I stick to the genre being discussed, which in this case it's classical music and all it's guises.

You can call jazz whatever you want to, Tapkaara, I don't care, but I don't see how it has much to do with the actual conversation that was taking place.

Jazz has been a major part of my life and I've certainly heard people like you call it a lot worse, so quit taking everything so personal when somebody comments on somebody that you like.

You should be used to people calling Philip Glass a hack by now anyway.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> My question to you is what does jazz have to do with me or Bach calling a classical composer that we don't like crap? You clearly may understand our logic, but with your logic you're bringing in a genre of music that has nothing to do with the conversation. At least when I criticize music I stick to the genre being discussed, which in this case it's classical music and all it's guises.
> 
> You can call jazz whatever you want to, Tapkaara, I don't care, but I don't see how it has much to do with the actual conversation that was taking place.
> 
> ...


I am used to folks dissing Glass and I do not take it personally, and I never have.

Jazz may have nothing to do with this conversation, or it may very much. But I have every right to voice my opinion on it in this forum and I did just that.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> I am used to folks dissing Glass and I do not take it personally, and I never have.
> 
> Jazz may have nothing to do with this conversation, or it may very much. But I have every right to voice my opinion on it in this forum and I did just that.


 Whatever you say. Sounds like you're clutching at straws now. You're still on the defensive....


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Anyway, getting back on topic, which is what I was trying to do until we got sidetracked with the unusual interruption of Tapkaara's "I hate jazz!" tantrum, I still need to get around to listening to more American composers. I've bought several recordings of American composers whose music I haven't heard through Naxos' American Classics series. A truly great series that any self-respecting, American who enjoys classical music should take part in. They've put out some great stuff.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Whatever you say. Sounds like you're clutching at straws now. You're still on the defensive....


I never clutch at straws and I stand by my opinion of jazz.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Mirror Image said:


> Anyway, getting back on topic, which is what I was trying to do until we got sidetracked with the unusual interruption of Tapkaara's "I hate jazz!" tantrum, I still need to get around to listening to more American composers. I've bought several recordings of American composers whose music I haven't heard through Naxos' American Classics series. A truly great series that any self-respecting, American who enjoys classical music should take part in. They've put out some great stuff.


Yes, I do hate jazz. Just as much as you hate Philip Glass, MI. I hate jazz.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Tapkaara said:


> Yes, I do hate jazz. Just as much as you hate Philip Glass, MI. I hate jazz.


Now, he takes personal shots after I tried to get back on topic. What will the moderators think?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I haven't listened to that Rautavaara piece, but I'm interested in hearing it for myself & making my own conclusions.

I don't think that minimalism can be described as 'crap' although I don't really like the American minimalsts that much, I don't mind Tavener, Part or Gorecki. But we must not forget that minimalism is just a label that has been applied to a wide variety of music, so I don't think one should stereotype those composers.

I don't think jazz is crap either, but I think Tapkaara was being somewhat flippant, tit for tat...

*Getting back to the main topic*, I'm interested in the music of Swiss composer *Frank Martin*, apparently one of the great C20th European modernists. I'll try to buy some soon. Has anyone heard his music?


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## BuddhaBandit (Dec 31, 2007)

Andre said:


> *Getting back to the main topic*, I'm interested in the music of Swiss composer *Frank Martin*, apparently one of the great C20th European modernists. I'll try to buy some soon. Has anyone heard his music?


Yes! I've got a recording of his piano concertos that I really like. His slow movements are an interesting combination of impressionism and atonalism, and his fast movements have a nervous, twittering rhythmic drive. If you're into Prokofiev and Barber, you'll definitely like Martin.



Mirror Image said:


> No I don't and let me say playing something on a keyboard that triggers moose sounds isn't my idea of advancement in music.


The call of the Alaskan moose itself is awe-inspiring music. It is a sublime bellow that rings out through the animal's silky brown fur and makes the very tips of its pure white horns vibrate. The deep resonance of the angry moose has sent tingles down the spines of the great Inuit and Eskimo composers, and was once known as the "bellow heard 'round the world". So, Mirror Image, you lack of respect for the majestic call of the moose shows a supreme ignorance of true cervidaen beauty.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

BuddhaBandit said:


> Yes! I've got a recording of his piano concertos that I really like. His slow movements are an interesting combination of impressionism and atonalism, and his fast movements have a nervous, twittering rhythmic drive. If you're into Prokofiev and Barber, you'll definitely like Martin.


Sounds interesting. I'll definitely be getting some Martin if I see anything...


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

Andre said:


> I don't think jazz is crap either, but I think Tapkaara was being somewhat flippant, tit for tat...


I think Tapkaara was trying to make a point that didn't come out that well, which was to bring in a completely different genre of music into a conversation that had nothing to do with that genre.

With his logic, I should just start yelling out random things like "I like ice cream!" or "I hate Frosted Flakes."


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## kg4fxg (May 24, 2009)

*MI - be careful....*

Next you will be saying bad things about Captain Crunch or Life Cereal. I will have to put my foot down as I enjoy my cereal at 2AM. Just kidding.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

kg4fxg said:


> Next you will be saying bad things about Captain Crunch or Life Cereal. I will have to put my foot down as I enjoy my cereal at 2AM. Just kidding.


I LOVE Captain Crunch, so I could never say such things about it. I never tried Life though how do you rank it?


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## bassClef (Oct 29, 2006)

I can take jazz, I grew up with it and even have quite a few CDs in my collection - can't we have a sub-forum on it along-side metal??

I just dont like "modern" jazz - sounds like musical wankery to me.


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## Mirror Image (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm moving on to composers that I never heard of now. I pretty much own all the major works by the major composers. It's time to start exploring classical that I'm not familiar with.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

Mmm, Captain Crunch..


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