# Bernstein's first Mahler cycle



## IAmKing

Got the boxset the other day. Very enjoyable so far. The only thing I haven't been impressed with was the trumpet fanfare at the beginning of Mahler's 5th. Sounded really rather sloppy, and I prefer it taken at a slower pace. 

I also found the slow pace of the 2nd movement of the 3rd symphony to be a little off putting at first (being used to Zander's faster version) but I don't consider one superior to the other.

Your thoughts?


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## Kurkikohtaus

I have only heard Symphonies No. 1 and No. 4 with Bernstein and in both cases have enjoyed them a lot.

The problem with Bernstein is that his approach to music is so very personal. He seeks to express himself through the music first and foremost, or to uncover little secrets in the score that may or may not be relevant. His liberties with tempo, phrasing and dynamics actually turn me off most of the time, that is, *except with Mahler*. I find that Mahler's music requires this very imaginative and personal approach, so that every moment is charged with life and feeling. If Mahler is attempted too "literally", it comes off to me as being boring and long.


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## IAmKing

Hmm... thats interesting. Can't say I've noticed it myself, aside from not having many of Bernstein's recordings from other composers, what I do have I've rather enjoyed and don't have another reference for.


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## Kurkikohtaus

The ultimate "reference" that you seek may not be another recording of the same work, but the score itself. There is absolutely no question as to wether or not Berstein is taking liberties with the score, which he does consistantly. I go a step further in saying that in my opinion, Bernstein *distorts* the score in that his performances often communicate something different than the composer intended, and here you can use other performances as a reference.

What is open to discussion, however, is if you *like the result*. If Bernstein, with all his liberties, ends up being able to move the listener to a profound emotional experience (which is his goal), than I guess what he is doing is good... or is it?


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## mahlerfan

You both are speaking of Bernstein's recordings with the New York Phil., right? If you are, I would like to add that I am buying each symphony individually, and so far I am very pleased with them, except for the trumpet solo in the Fifth as *IAmKing* stated in the first post. I received the Eighth today in the mail after ordering it from amazon.com, and it is simply fantastic! Each seems to be a very good and original interpertation, except for the Fifth. If anyone is looking for a good Mahler 5, I would recommend the Vienna Phil. recording with Lorin Maazel.


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## IAmKing

Thanks for the 5th recommendation, mahlerfan.  

The 8th is wonderful. I nearly broke my speakers the first time I stuck it on. Fantastic opening.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Have only heard his first one but I have liked it.


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## flamencosketches

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Have only heard his first one but I have liked it.


Same, it's the only Mahler cycle that I have, but I've been listening to it and loving it for months now. He really gets Mahler. Deviating from the score or not, the end result is completely worthwhile.


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## Larkenfield

IAmKing said:


> Got the boxset the other day. Very enjoyable so far. The only thing I haven't been impressed with was the trumpet fanfare at the beginning of Mahler's 5th. Sounded really rather sloppy, and I prefer it taken at a slower pace.
> 
> I also found the slow pace of the 2nd movement of the 3rd symphony to be a little off putting at first (being used to Zander's faster version) but I don't consider one superior to the other.
> 
> Your thoughts?


I noticed the anemic trumpet solo in the Fifth, too. It's like the first chair player was a two-pack a day smoker. Bernstein really pushes the orchestra in that performance and takes no prisoners. The orchestra either kept up with him or was going to get left behind and he kept pushing forward despite the minor imperfections that happened along the way. I think it's one of the most revealing recordings he ever did on how he draws emotion out of an orchestra, and he was not necessarily concerned with having a perfect performance. I'm surprised he didn't start over again after such a feeble and unpromising beginning, but once he started he wasn't going to turn back. I learned so much about him from just that one recording.


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## Rogerx

flamencosketches said:


> Same, it's the only Mahler cycle that I have, but I've been listening to it and loving it for months now. He really gets Mahler. Deviating from the score or not, the end result is completely worthwhile.


How did the 3 third ho yesterday?


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## mbhaub

I have all of Bernstein's Mahler - and it's all terrific. His first cycle came about when Mahler was still rarely performed and not that well known. As the music was played, recorded, and listened to much more a general performance standard, "this is how it goes", evolved. Bernstein really did lead the way especially in symphonies 3, 6, and 7. Yes, there are newer sets that have better playing and certainly better sound, and better performing editions...but Bernstein communicates Mahler better than anyone, IMO. I do have a gripe though with Sony/BMG: why didn't they put all of his Columbia Records Mahler in one box? It would have been so easy to include DLVDE, and the songs he accompanied on piano.


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## flamencosketches

Rogerx said:


> How did the 3 third ho yesterday?


Stopped after the first movement  I enjoyed it this time, though, and could actually hear the structure whereas before it seemed like a random mess of thematic material.


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## hoodjem

How's the recording quality? 

(The excerpts I've heard have suggested it is a bit thin and strident.)


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## starthrower

hoodjem said:


> How's the recording quality?
> 
> (The excerpts I've heard have suggested it is a bit thin and strident.)


I don't notice any thinness. I don't have the remastered box set which everyone seems to agree on about the great sound. I have the 1999 Bernstein Century CDs. They sound fine to me for 55+ year old Columbia recordings.


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## Merl

This was one of the first Mahler cycles I bought and it remains a very good one. Yes, the 5th is shoddy, sometimes badly played and not very well recorded, I don't like the congested sound of the 8th (but I don't like any 8ths anyway) and his 3rd is OK but the rest is top notch and I'm probably on my own in suggesting that this 1st is better than his later recording. I like both his Mahler sets but this one I prefer overall for its lack of exaggeration and naturalness. I agree that the sound was improved for the latest remastering but it wasn't that bad in the first place (apart from the 5th and 8th IMO).


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## Enthusiast

hoodjem said:


> How's the recording quality?
> 
> (The excerpts I've heard have suggested it is a bit thin and strident.)


I think I can remember rejecting Bernstein's 1st Mahler series when they came out because I also found the sound a little strident. There is no hint of that in the set currently before us - it has excellent sound.


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## perdido34

Enthusiast said:


> I think I can remember rejecting Bernstein's 1st Mahler series when they came out because I also found the sound a little strident. There is no hint of that in the set currently before us - it has excellent sound.


The latest remasters of the first Bernstein Mahler cycle have improved the sound, although there are many more recent recordings with better sound than any of them.


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## Enthusiast

^ Of course there are! But if you want Bernstein's first take (iconic performances in their way) it is now possible with very acceptable sound - the remasters are a great improvement.


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## DavidA

There is a superb 3 in Bernstein’s first cycle


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## Josquin13

I agree that the sound quality of Bernstein's first Mahler is no longer an issue. Years ago (in the 2000s), the recordings were superbly well remastered in DSD for the excellent sounding Japanese hybrid SACDs, & those same remasters were then used for the latest Sony bargain CD box set. For $22-26 (US dollars), which is the range I've seen it sell for on Amazon, I'd consider the Sony set to be one of the best bargains in the catalogue: https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Compl...ein+Mahler+sony&qid=1577783197&s=music&sr=1-2.

With that said, Mahler's symphonies are extremely difficult to record well, even today, due to the size of the orchestra that he uses, and his extensive orchestration. So, if you want to hear Mahler's scores in incredible detail, you'll need to also buy a set that offers the latest 'state of the art' sound technology. & I wouldn't recommend Bernstein's digital cycle on DG, which is a mixed bag, in my opinion (I'm generally not a big fan of late Bernstein, even in Mahler)--although he was very good in the 3rd, 6th, & 7th Symphonies on both cycles, even if I do tend to prefer the Sony recordings.

The Bernstein CBS recording that could really use a new remaster is his live recording of the 2nd Symphony from Ely Cathedral with the London Symphony Orchestra, which has sounded better on DVD than on CD. I've found the CD releases to be frustrating so far, sound-wise, because I consider the Ely Cathedral performance to be the best of Bernstein's three recordings of the 2nd. I'm also a big fan of the two sopranos on that recording, Sheila Armstrong and Dame Janet Baker, and especially Baker, who is my favorite singer of Mahler's music.


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## mbhaub

That Ely Cathedral recording has always suffered sonically speaking. It's a glorious setting, but a nightmare to record it. The reverberation, all the hard surfaces...no one could make a great orchestral recording in it. Great performance, yes. And you're right: Mahler's orchestral palette makes any recording difficult to get right and the best we can really hope for is a representation of what you might hear in a live concert. (Of course, recordings often reveal details that are never heard in a live situation.) The same can be said of any orchestral recording, really. Too bad that no one had the foresight to make true binaural recordings of Bernstein doing Mahler - done correctly, that technique is startlingly, breathtakingly lifelike.


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