# Works with unnecessarily confusing names



## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Some pieces really needed somebody to cast an editorial glance at the titles. For instance:

Janáček's String Quartet No. 1: _The Kreutzer Sonata_

It's probably never a great idea to name a piece of music after another piece of music in a different genre, but in this case the confusion is compounded by the fact that it's named after a novella which is named after a piece of music. The fact that none of the works in question have much to do with anybody named Kreutzer doesn't help matters.

Mozart's _Haydn_ Quartets.

Haydn fortunately resisted the temptation to return the favour by writing a set of _Mozart_ quartets.

Pachelbel's _Canon_ in D

It's not in any way a canon. I suppose "Passacaglia in D" didn't have the same ring.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ahammel said:


> Pachelbel's _Canon_ in D
> 
> It's not in any way a canon. I suppose "Passacaglia in D" didn't have the same ring.


A skunk by any other name . . .

I can't add much to the list.
Barber - Knoxville: Summer, 1915 (composed ca. 1947, likely not in Knoxville)

Bach - Organ trios, all written for one organ.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Bach's _Italian Concerto_ is also a solo work. And Bach wasn't even Italian!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Well-tempered Clavier? Couldn't he have just called it The Happy Piano?

And...Leonore No. 3? Was Beethoven building an army of female clones for world domination?


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

Albinoni's Adagio - By Giazotto (with a motif clearly similar to that of the horn in Mozart's 4th Horn concerto, 1st movement, section B)


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## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

Brahms: Variations on a Theme by Haydn = the theme isn't by Haydn, apparently.

Shostakovich: Jazz Suite #2 = doesn't sound particularly Jazzy to me (ok, apprently this piece is now called "Suite For Variety Orchestra")


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

ahammel said:


> Pachelbel's _Canon_ in D
> 
> It's not in any way a canon. I suppose "Passacaglia in D" didn't have the same ring.


Great thread. I'd always supposed a 'canon' meant more or less the same as a round, where different voices/instruments begin again some time after the main ones have started - can't explain clearly, but you probably know what I mean.

But it seems that it's more complex than that, so I have learned something. Still, Wikipedia does seem to think that in some ways, it *is* a canon:

'Although a true canon at the unison in three parts, it also has elements of a chaconne. It has been frequently arranged and transcribed for many different media.'

So maybe *in popular usage* it deserves its name. I like it, actually - so Weston may think of me as a 'skunk-lover'!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> 'Although a true canon at the unison in three parts, it also has elements of a chaconne. It has been frequently arranged and transcribed for many different media.'


I don't hear the unison imitation among the voices. Admittedly, though, I do my best not to hear it at all.

A chaconne is very similar to a passacaglia (melodic variation over a repetitive bass figure), and neither necessarily have the imitation which, as far as my understanding goes, defines a canon.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm more interested in knowing what a _necessarily_ confusing name would look like.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th Symphony.

He calls it a symphony, but the last movement has soloist voices and choir. What the hell?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Weston said:


> I can't add much to the list.
> Barber - Knoxville: Summer, 1915 (composed ca. 1947, likely not in Knoxville) .


That's like saying the 1812 Overture wasn't written in 1812. I'm not sure it's that confusing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Outside of a single unsupported assertion by Forkel (and who's he anyway?) there's no evidence that anybody named Goldberg had anything to do with those variations.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Weston said:


> A skunk by any other name . . .
> 
> )
> 
> Bach - Organ trios, *all written for one organ*.


Possibly not.....


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

some guy said:


> I'm more interested in knowing what a _necessarily_ confusing name would look like.


I suppose the title of anything that doesn't fit comfortably into an established genre is going to be a bit uninformative, by necessity.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

GiulioCesare said:


> Ludwig van Beethoven's 9th Symphony.
> 
> He calls it a symphony, but the last movement has soloist voices and choir. What the hell?


He wasn't the first one to do it, just the most famous early example.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Numerous works entitled "grand" (mainly virtuosic solo works; grand sonatas, grand caprices etc.), because most of them are as grand as cat lying rolled over on the highway.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Schubert's Great Symphony is very appropriately named, though.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

ahammel said:


> I don't hear the unison imitation among the voices. Admittedly, though, I do my best not to hear it at all.
> 
> A chaconne is very similar to a passacaglia (melodic variation over a repetitive bass figure), and neither necessarily have the imitation which, as far as my understanding goes, defines a canon.


I have a button in my brain that switches off when music theory is discussed, so you must be right, I'm sure.
What I was going on is that when I play Pachelbel's canon, my violin teacher plays a line behind (I think) so I thought it was like 'a round'; plus, if Wikipedia thinks it has some characteristics of a canon, maybe it doesn't belong among your more egregious examples.

But heck, what do I know? I do think some of your examples and those on the other posts are very funny. 
Like I said, great thread. :tiphat:

Edit: Thanks for replying in any case. All of us who are posting while the server is doing the hokey cokey deserve a medal, imo!


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Numerous works entitled "grand" (mainly virtuosic solo works; grand sonatas, grand caprices etc.), because most of them are as grand as cat lying rolled over on the highway.


"In an interview about the mysterious number 69, Ligeti was asked: 'I'm intrigued by one title from 1951, your Grand Symphonie Militaire Op.69', to which Ligeti responded:

Oh that was a joke. The Opus number refers of course to the sexual position."


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Listening to the Coffee Cantata while drinking coffee. I take a sip every time Lieschen sings "Kaffee!"... Not confusing at all.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> What I was going on is that when I play Pachelbel's canon, my violin teacher plays a line behind (I think) so I thought it was like 'a round'; plus, if Wikipedia thinks it has some characteristics of a canon, maybe it doesn't belong among your more egregious examples.


Looking at the score, it appears that you are quite correct. The _Canon_ is, as canon suggests, a canonical canon.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ingélou said:


> What I was going on is that when I play Pachelbel's canon, my violin teacher plays a line behind (I think) so I thought it was like 'a round'; plus, if Wikipedia thinks it has some characteristics of a canon, maybe it doesn't belong among your more egregious examples.


Indeed, a round is a simple canon.

Canons can also be far more complex, where the voices, instead of singing the exact same thing, sing something mostly the same, but higher or lower (transposed) or faster and slower.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

And, isn't "Rondo" and "Rondeau" the same thing as a "Round"? Just checking, you know.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

shangoyal said:


> And, isn't "Rondo" and "Rondeau" the same thing as a "Round"? Just checking, you know.


No. That is related to the English word "refrain". In all cases it means a theme that returns at intervals after other things happen.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> No. That is related to the English word "refrain". In all cases it means a theme that returns at intervals after other things happen.


Ah! So I guess, there's only a _lingual_ connection, not a _musical_ one.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> That's like saying the 1812 Overture wasn't written in 1812. I'm not sure it's that confusing.


Those with a strong inclination to take everything literally can readily find that sort of thing flummoxing.... A hugely literal thinking mind also rarely gets most jokes, let alone a pretty straightforward title :-(

But hey, "Symphony No. 5?" Wassup wid dat?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

PetrB said:


> But hey, "Symphony No. 5?" Wassup wid dat?


Sir George Grove commented that Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 in C minor Op. 67 was hugely popular, even without a nickname and in spite of its "revolting nomenclature."


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## Centropolis (Jul 8, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Sir George Grove commented that Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 in C minor Op. 67 was hugely popular, even without a nickname and in spite of its "revolting nomenclature."


What would be a good nickname for Beethoven Sym No. 5 if we were to come up with one? Just wondering.....


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

What's more confusing than Bruckner's _Symphony No. 0_? The answer is, of course, _Symphony No. 00_ by the same composer.

I'm surprised that he didn't try to write a _Symphony -1_. The poor guy was confused about his numbers.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

The only one I can think of at the moment is Schnittke's Symphony #5 which is also his Concerto Grosso #4. That piece is a nightmare for people like me who are neurotic about the layout and categorization of their music collection.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Centropolis said:


> What would be a good nickname for Beethoven Sym No. 5 if we were to come up with one? Just wondering.....


I've encountered one instance of it being referred to as the "Fate" Symphony, based on that story of the opening motif representing "fate knocking on the door." Just some silly mythologising, really.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Every work is called what it is because it is.

End of thread.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

But what when it isn't?

Best regards, Dr


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> Every work is called what it is because it is.
> 
> End of thread.





> But what when it isn't?
> 
> Best regards, Dr


The the work isn't called what it is because it isn't.

Beginning of thread.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Celloman said:


> What's more confusing than Bruckner's _Symphony No. 0_? The answer is, of course, _Symphony No. 00_ by the same composer.


He didn't actually call it the Symphony No. 0. It's the symphony in D minor that he wrote a "null" on the front page of. The "00" was simply the Symphony in F minor.



> I'm surprised that he didn't try to write a _Symphony -1_. The poor guy was confused about his numbers.


Actually, if one goes by WAB numbers, you can get the number of each symphony by subtracting 100. WAB 105 is the Fifth Symphony, WAB 102 is the Second, WAB 100 is the "Nullte", and WAB 99 is the "Study Symphony", so if one takes this all literally....


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

The 'Trumpet Voluntary'?

Originally *not for a trumpet*.

Wikipedia says: 'Trumpet voluntaries usually consist of a slow introduction followed by a faster section with the right hand playing fanfare-like figures over a simple accompaniment in the left hand. In some instances, the Trumpet is replaced by the Cornet stop, or even a Flute stop.'

Jeremiah Clarke's 'Trumpet Voluntary' is more properly called 'The Prince of Denmark's March' & sometimes just a 'Trumpet Tune'.

'It is properly a rondo for keyboard and was not originally called a trumpet voluntary.' - Wikipedia

For many years, people attributed it to Purcell. I have a ghost of a memory that some still do.

All I know of Jeremiah Clarke is that he died for love. He loved a lady whose status was too high for him. He decided on suicide & flipped a coin to choose between hanging & drowning. The coin landed on its side in the mud, but instead of giving up his idea, he shot himself. He was only 34. 

So every time one uses the term 'trumpet voluntary' one has to hedge it about with explanations, or suffer the knowing looks of 'people who know better' about music.

But anyway, a 'voluntary' seems an odd term. Myself, I'm always playing 'Violin Involuntaries'.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

_Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ by Debussy. It's already a mouthful in French, who wants to say the whole title in English? Calling it Debussy "Prelude" would also be an error because he wrote many preludes, and how can that piece be differentiated from his others? Faun Prelude? Sounds silly.

And make sure that you _never _call it a tone poem... even though it's based off a poem and involves tone atmospheres.


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

Haydn's "A" Symphony. Or, IIRC, Brukner's Zeroth Symphony.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Isn't the prelude to the afternoon, lunch? I propose _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ would best be translated into English as: _Half-goat Lunch_.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Some pieces really needed somebody to cast an editorial glance at the titles. For instance:
> 
> Janáček's String Quartet No. 1: _The Kreutzer Sonata_
> 
> It's probably never a great idea to name a piece of music after another piece of music in a different genre, but in this case the confusion is compounded by the fact that it's named after a novella which is named after a piece of music. The fact that none of the works in question have much to do with anybody named Kreutzer doesn't help matters.


Maybe the author gave himself an ''artistic freedom'' to name it after a work that maybe inspired him
http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/kreutzer-sonata/


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

This might sound silly, but I've never understood the title "concerto for orchetsra."


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This might sound silly, but I've never understood the title "concerto for orchetsra."


Orchetsra is very silent instrument, you can't really hear it without special sound system so most people think there is only orchestra playing and the title is simply a typo.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_ by Debussy. It's already a mouthful in French, who wants to say the whole title in English? Calling it Debussy "Prelude" would also be an error because he wrote many preludes, and how can that piece be differentiated from his others? Faun Prelude? Sounds silly.
> 
> And make sure that you _never _call it a tone poem... even though it's based off a poem and involves tone atmospheres.


LOL, count me in that group!.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This might sound silly, but I've never understood the title "concerto for orchetsra."


And what about your ex-fetiche piece, the _Chamber Concerto_.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> And what about your ex-fetiche piece, the _Chamber Concerto_.


That too actually. :lol:
I guess it's mainly up to the composer to give the real definition of these terms.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This might sound silly, but I've never understood the title "concerto for orchetsra."


I guess the idea is that all the instruments have impressive concerto like parts? That's what I've always thought but I never liked that name because to me concerto implies a smaller group against a bigger group so who is the bigger group if the concerto is for the whole orchestra?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

violadude said:


> I guess the idea is that all the instruments have impressive concerto like parts? That's what I've always thought but I never liked that name because to me concerto implies a smaller group against a bigger group so who is the bigger group if the concerto is for the whole orchestra?


Why not...."virtuosic symphony" then? I like that title better....and it seems more correct.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

violadude said:


> I guess the idea is that all the instruments have impressive concerto like parts? That's what I've always thought but I never liked that name because to me concerto implies a smaller group against a bigger group so who is the bigger group if the concerto is for the whole orchestra?


Maybe it implies shifting soloists or concertante group around the whole band? I don't know it necessarily implies virtuosity - although there's some tricky stuff in the Bartok and Lutoslawski (because which others get played?) they're probably not the toughest thing a pro will come across in a concert season. But surely - it's just the vibe! Concerto for Orchestra sounds sparkly and fun (and a visuo-aural delight as concert-goers really see and hear harps and celesta and tubas and percussion in action!) and these two works fit that bill


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

The _Symphonie Espagnole_ is something like a violin concerto written by a French composer.

My recording of Ravel's Sonatine for piano runs 11 minutes and 48 seconds, making it about five times longer than a Scarlatti sonata and longer than many Mozart and Haydn sonatas. Maybe it was just inflation, like when you read a Dickens novel and the hero is living on £50 a year back in 1840... Of course, the other interpretation of a Sonatine is that it's easy to play. I suppose it is, compared to the Hammerklavier Sonata.


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## waldvogel (Jul 10, 2011)

Then, of course, there are Schubert's _Moments Musicaux_. In these pieces Schubert foreshadowed the rise of modern hip-hop, which equates bad grammar to being cool.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Erik Satie's titles are always good fun. "Sonatine Bureaucratique" could hardly have been given a more appropriate name.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

The _Enigma Variations_ speaks for itself.


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## Crassus (Nov 4, 2013)

Any title that consists in a description of the number of instruments used in the piece gives a misleading impression.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Crassus said:


> Any title that consists in a description of the number of instruments used in the piece gives a misleading impression.


How so? It seems like it could hardly be _less_ misleading.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> This might sound silly, but I've never understood the title "concerto for orchetsra."


In Bartók's case, the traditional explanation is that he wanted to write an orchestral piece but didn't want to deal with the by-then romantic connotations of the word "symphony," so "concerto for orchestra" was the next best thing.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Ravel's _Le tombeau de Couperin_. The literal translation of that is "The tomb of Couperin"!.
Wiki says:

_"While the word-for-word meaning of the title invites the assumption that the suite is a programmatic work, describing what is seen and felt in a visit to the tomb of Couperin, tombeau is actually a musical term popular in the 17th century and meaning "a piece written as a memorial". The specific Couperin (among a family noted as musicians for about two centuries) that Ravel intended to be evoked, along with the friends, would presumably be François Couperin "the Great" (1668-1733). However, Ravel stated that his intention was never to imitate or pay tribute to Couperin himself, but rather was to pay homage to the sensibilities of the Baroque French keyboard suite. This is reflected in the structure which imitates a Baroque dance suite."_


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Do you mean Berg's _Chamber Concerto_? I assume it is so called because the ensemble of "non-soloists" (the thirteen winds) is so small.



aleazk said:


> And what about your ex-fetiche piece, the _Chamber Concerto_.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

What about Liszt's tone poem _Les Preludes_? Where are the preludes? How is the piece a prelude to anything?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Hartmann, Henze, and Ligeti also wrote chamber concerti, presumably in imitation of Berg.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

spradlig said:


> What about Liszt's tone poem _Les Preludes_? Where are the preludes? How is the piece a prelude to anything?


Life is the prelude. To death:



Franz Liszt said:


> What else is our life but a series of preludes to that unknown Hymn, the first and solemn note of which is intoned by Death?-Love is the glowing dawn of all existence; but what is the fate where the first delights of happiness are not interrupted by some storm, the mortal blast of which dissipates its fine illusions, the fatal lightning of which consumes its altar; and where is the cruelly wounded soul which, on issuing from one of these tempests, does not endeavour to rest his recollection in the calm serenity of life in the fields? Nevertheless man hardly gives himself up for long to the enjoyment of the beneficent stillness which at first he has shared in Nature's bosom, and when "the trumpet sounds the alarm", he hastens, to the dangerous post, whatever the war may be, which calls him to its ranks, in order at last to recover in the combat full consciousness of himself and entire possession of his energy.


Like, that's totally deep, maaaaaaaaaaaaaan.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

*these are confusing to me, anyway*

Bach's Brandenburg Concertos don't sound like concertos to me, maybe because in most of them there are several soloists and the "orchestra" is small. I don't hear any dramatic contrast between soloists and orchestra like in a typical concerto. Probably they are technically concertos.

To me, Mozart's _Sinfonia Concertante_ for violin, viola and orchestra sounds like a double concerto. People in this forum have explained why Mozart's title makes sense, but it still confuses me.

Domenico Scarlatti's sonatas for keyboard are extremely short one-movement works. I think of a sonata as being a fairly long work, usually in several movements.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Can you provide some examples? The only one I can think of is Berg's _Chamber Concerto_ for piano, violin, and 13 winds, and I'm not even sure "13" is part of the title.



Crassus said:


> Any title that consists in a description of the number of instruments used in the piece gives a misleading impression.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

*Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier*

KenOC: I assume your post is a joke, but I have some questions:

In Bach's _Well-Tempered Clavier_, is the keyboard instrument intended to be tuned using equal temperament? It is hard for me to imagine that all the preludes and fugues would sound good using any other tuning system, but I have not read a description of this work that clearly identifies the tuning system. Also, I think the piano was just barely being invented when Bach was composing, and most written accounts seem to be vague about exactly what keyboard instrument(s) Bach was writing for (except for organ works): harpsichord? clavichord? something else?

Finally, you probably know better than I do, but I think Beethoven thought of calling his opera "Leonore" and wrote at least 3 overtures for it.



KenOC said:


> Well-tempered Clavier? Couldn't he have just called it The Happy Piano?
> 
> And...Leonore No. 3? Was Beethoven building an army of female clones for world domination?


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

spradlig said:


> Can you provide some examples? The only one I can think of is Berg's _Chamber Concerto_ for piano, violin, and 13 winds, and I'm not even sure "13" is part of the title.


Anything called a string quartet, a string quintet, a string trio, a piano trio, a piano quartet, a piano quintet, an octet for strings, an octet for winds...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

spradlig said:


> In Bach's _Well-Tempered Clavier_, is the keyboard instrument intended to be tuned using equal temperament? ... Finally, you probably know better than I do, but I think Beethoven thought of calling his opera "Leonore" and wrote at least 3 overtures for it.


Probably not "equal" temperament, as is commonly used today. There were several systems of temperament floating around in Bach's day, all intended to make various key signatures sound more or less the same. Exactly what Bach's "well" temperament was is still much debated.

Re opera, Beethoven's only opera was named "Leonore" in its first two versions in 1805 and 1806. It was renamed "Fidelio" for the final 1814 version. The number of "Leonore" Overtures has always been kind of a joke. I have a recording from one of the hilarious Hoffnung Music Festivals with the Leonore Overture No. 7 (I think)!


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Bruckner Symphony No. 1 "the Saucy Maid" what is that all about

I also love Schumann's original title for his Fantasie in C: Obolen auf Beethovens Monument: Ruinen, Trophaen, Palmen, Grosse Sonate f.d. Piano f. Für Beethovens Denkmal


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Bruckner Symphony No. 1 "the Saucy Maid" what is that all about


I think you're looking for the thread about works with unnecessarily awesome names.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> He wasn't the first one to do it, just the most famous early example.


Really? There were symphs with choir before Luigi?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Bruckner Symphony No. 1 "the Saucy Maid" what is that all about


I find it VERY hard to believe that Bruckner could write _anything _that anybody would call "The Saucy Maid."


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

some guy said:


> I'm more interested in knowing what a _necessarily_ confusing name would look like.


It would look necessarily confusing...


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

All of Bruckner's symphonies have subtitles, most of which I've never seen used. In addition to the aforementioned "Saucy Maid", there's...

Symphony of Pauses (No. 2)
Wagner (No. 3)
Romantic (No. 4; this is by far the most-used subtitle)
Tragic/Church of Faith/Pizzicato (No. 5; of these, the last is the most obvious one to me)
Philosophical (No. 6)
Lyric (No. 7)
Apocalyptic (No. 8)
Unfinished (No. 9)


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kieran said:


> Really? There were symphs with choir before Luigi?


The only reference I have been able to find to an earier symphony with voices is this [quote from New Grove]: Peter von Winter's Schlacht-Sinfonie also uses a concluding chorus. Written in 1814, it predates Beethoven's Ninth by a decade. However, as an occasional work written in one movement, the Schlacht-Sinfonie "stands outside the generic tradition of the symphony".


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Most of the subtitles of the Bruckner symphonies were not assigned by the composers though.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I think Holst's *The Planets* are titled meaninglessly. I think this without ever doing any research into the matter at all. I listen to the music and nothing jumps out at me.

Not even so much as a comet, or a little moon.

So I think of Campbell soup tins when I listen now, and that's much less confusing and far more satisfying... :tiphat:


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

The subject matter of _The Planets_ is astrological rather than astronomical in nature, which is why Earth is omitted.

I was rather disappointed when I found that out: I think there should be more art inspired by scientific findings. And frankly, trying to capture the sense of the landscapes of various planets in the solar system in music could lead to some amazing music. There are mountains on Mars more than 20 kilometres high! Jupiter has an ongoing ferocious hurricane larger than the Earth! For me, those scenes evoke much more emotion than any dusty old silliness about how the constellations influence whether I'll meet a tall dark stranger.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ahammel said:


> Most of the subtitles of the Bruckner symphonies were not assigned by the composers though.


"Romantic" and "Saucy maid" were Bruckner's own appellations. The rest are as fanciful as Haydn (or Mahler!) symphony nicknames.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> "Romantic" and "Saucy maid" were Bruckner's own appellations. The rest are as fanciful as Haydn (or Mahler!) symphony nicknames.


The Saucy Maid Symphony! That's more like it. I'd go listen to that one. I'd go with the lads. We'd have a few jars beforehand and roar our approval while waiting for the Saucy Maid to come out. We'd appreciate the music all the more for using our imaginations the way they're meant to be used!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Talking of scientific-minded composers, _Metastaseis_ doesn't quite bring to mind what I imagine Xenakis intended.


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Terms such as "Piano trio" (3 pianos?), "Clarinet Quintet" (5 clarinets?), etc. might be confusing to some. Schubert's great string quintet is often called a "cello quintet", suggesting 5 cellos.



ahammel said:


> Anything called a string quartet, a string quintet, a string trio, a piano trio, a piano quartet, a piano quintet, an octet for strings, an octet for winds...


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

spradlig said:


> Terms such as "Piano trio" (3 pianos?), "Clarinet Quintet" (5 clarinets?), etc. might be confusing to some. Schubert's great string quintet is often called a "cello quintet", suggesting 5 cellos.


"Cello quintet" is just a shorthand for "quintet for two violins, viola and two violincellos", which is what it's called in the title page of the score I'm looking at.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

ahammel said:


> "Cello quintet" is just a shorthand for "quintet for two violins, viola and two violincellos", which is what it's called in the title page of the score I'm looking at.


Then what would you call a work written for five cellos? Hmmm?


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## spradlig (Jul 25, 2012)

Yes, I know that, but if you walked up to the proverbial man in the street and told him you had just listened to a "cello quintet", he well might think you had listened to 5 cellos.



ahammel said:


> "Cello quintet" is just a shorthand for "quintet for two violins, viola and two violincellos", which is what it's called in the title page of the score I'm looking at.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Then what would you call a work written for five cellos? Hmmm?


I would call it three cellos short of a Villa-Lobos piece.


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