# My failing: I'm "tone deaf" to conductors



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

All the time for decades on forums I have heard other more gifted music connoseurs than I debate the merits of different conductors. I only really pay attention to the singers and this has always been my focus. i think I am somewhat discriminating about the various merits of Callas, Sutherland, Kaufmann, Fleming, Price etc. I really can't explain my indifference to the virtues of various conductors.I feel like a woman who is dragged to football games with her husband, but never really understands the big deal about the sport. Perhaps I needed a mentor to draw my attention to the varying merits of different conductors. As I say to my friends on Facebook... don't unfriend me!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't _hear_ differences between conductors' approaches, or that it's just not _important_ to you, since you're entirely focused on the singing? Do you not notice that some conductors' performances are more exciting or expressive than others'?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm tone deaf to triangles - they all sound the same to me


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I'm tone deaf to triangles - they all sound the same to me


Cheer up. They _are_ all the same. It's rectangles you need to worry about.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Cheer up. They _are_ all the same. It's rectangles you need to worry about.


the square ones you mean, thanks


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

It sometimes embarrasses me to admit that I am sometimes so overwhelmed by the music that the arias take second place.
Some examples that come immediately to mind are:
Mefistofele
Don Carlo
Dialogues des Carmelites
Parsifal
Gotterdammerung
Romeo et Juliette


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

As for conductors, I am anything but cognizant about who is better than who but I for sure can tell who isn't up to par.
The conductor that annoys me the most: Domingo.
The conductors that excite me: Nezet-Seguin/Conlon/Levine/Dudamel


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> All the time for decades on forums I have heard other more gifted music connoseurs than I debate the merits of different conductors. I only really pay attention to the singers and this has always been my focus. i think I am somewhat discriminating about the various merits of Callas, Sutherland, Kaufmann, Fleming, Price etc. I really can't explain my indifference to the virtues of various conductors.I feel like a woman who is dragged to football games with her husband, but never really understands the big deal about the sport. Perhaps I needed a mentor to draw my attention to the varying merits of different conductors. As I say to my friends on Facebook... don't unfriend me!


Make a list of all of your favourite opera performances/recordings then note the conductors and see if there any who show up frequently. You could also do the reverse, i.e. list those recordings you particularly dislike ... although that will probably reflect more on the singers than the conductors.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

If you want to become more discriminating about conductors, perhaps you should dispense with singers. Listen to multiple interpretations of the same orchestral work; who knows what you may hear?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

If you are exclusively following the singers you love and all their vocal details, and that's your primary interest, the role of the conductor is most likely of secondary importance and I wouldn't consider it a problem. If you are dissatisfied with the _overall _performance, then it might be worth noting who's conducting and seek a performance conducted by somebody else.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

amfortas said:


> If you want to become more discriminating about conductors, perhaps you need to dispense with singers. Listen to multiple interpretations of the same orchestral work; who knows what you may hear?


I have that same experience with challenges for Mahler and Bruckner. But I argue that it doesn't depend so much in conductors (just pay attention to the pacing) as with the orchestra (the sound itself of the instruments, like strings, woodwinds, percussions and brass) or the sound engineering (how the producer and the label gives more presence in the microphones or the mixing to those parts of the orchestra). A conductor has always decision about how to lead during a performance but he (or she, like Simone Young) handpicks the players carefully. The sound of the Berliner Philharmoniker changed slowly from the departure of Karajan and throughout the regie of Abbado, and then Rattle who in my view made the most plain and bland version of the Berliner sound that I can remember. But there was something positive: Abbado made the Berliner finally on fit for Mahler music.
I don't usually have good views on the Wiener Philharmoniker. I swear I have not listened twice to the same sound in this orchestra. They are extremely flexible and from what I have been listening so far, their success depends entirely on the conductor. Knappertsbusch, Karajan, Solti, Giulini and Bernstein have raised their bar considerably. Without them I would only know the orchestra for playing Strauss Waltzes on January 1st.

Sorry, I cannot think of anything in opera that relates to the OP, but I also agree with above's Larkenfield comment.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I'm confused. Are you saying that you don't _hear_ differences between conductors' approaches, or that it's just not _important_ to you, since you're entirely focused on the singing? Do you not notice that some conductors' performances are more exciting or expressive than others'?


Probably a mixture of it not being that important to me and not noticing. I notice it more in Wagner.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

Don't worry about it. I'm more interested in the opera and composer than the singers or conductors.


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

I can understand this point of view - I suppose a factor might be the quality control involved in recording operas, particularly in the studio. Even when there are conductors who I would not personally call favourites - e.g. Santini, Leinsdorf, Pretre - I have to admit they all were committed professionals and note that contemporaries rated them highly enough to record their versions. Given the expertise involved at that level - including musicians, singers, producers- their performances probably are a better quality (even on a bad day) than any you going to hear in live performance: maybe a case of comparing 9/10s with 10/10s for the best versions?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Intro: I rambled a bit! I have hesitated to write anything, but I'm glad there've been a bunch of responses, and that they've been good. You like what you like! And if you really see this as a failing you want to work on, I agree with the suggestion of slumming it with some medium-length orchestral pieces (direct comparisons between world class conductors that have a lot of recordings by the composer with unknown conductors with lesser known orchestras [some of which are great!]) to see what you can pick out. It's somewhere to start!

I came to opera via orchestral music. And I first got obsessed with classical music when I realized how much difference a conductor could make, how much more clarity and power a conductor could bring to a score*.

Even so, when I started listening to opera obsessively enough that I was listening to multiple performances of the same work, it still took me a long time to really have a feel for what differences the conductor made.

There's a lot going on in opera, and a lot of things one can pay attention to. Even when just listening to an audio recording, there's a lot that can draw or hold one's attention, and not just various aspects of the singing. The architecture, coloring, and balance of the orchestra aren't in the forefront, and differences can be confused** by recording quality, different orchestras and concert halls (or open air pavilions), etc.

Arias are also barely offer a glance of much of what a conductor can that we get direct evidence of. It's easy to make a 4-minute section make sense on its own. Of course that section has dramatic impulse; that's why it's been excerpted! It's much more difficult find the flow of the music that leads to that aria so that that aria sounds like a natural outgrowth. (Though, of course, not all operas are written like this. That's another complicating factor: the 400+ year history of opera is quite varied, and even operas from the same era or style work in different ways).

A lot of what a conductor can do is behind the scenes. Not just off-stage, but in rehearsals. Not just working with the orchestra on balance and shape, but working with singers on interpretation***, and trying to make the whole coherent. They're there to support the drama. It's far more noticeable when they're bad (though it may not be clear why things sound bad) then when they're good or excellent. And, by and large, the singers you mention work with excellent conductors!

As others have noted, if a performance is particularly electric, the singers sound wonderful, and everything is on, it has a lot to do with a conductor (and other off-stage staff, of course). So you are certainly already appreciating conductors, even if it is difficult to pick out what they do.

* For me it was Carlos Kleiber in Beethoven's 7th symphony. I had heard the work before, but the architecture and flow of it never made so much sense, never felt so natural. And, as with opera, once you're not longer spending so much effort on trying to figure out what's going on, a whole world of detail opens up before you.

** And there are no real clear direct comparisons. When I saw the Ring at the Met in 2012, I saw the third cycle; Fabio Luisi conducted the first two operas, and separate assistants conducted the final two. Luisi had not been scheduled to conduct any of the performances; he stepped in for Levine. But even though I saw John Keenan conduct _Götterdämmerung_, it was Luisi's show. Luisi conducted the opera for the other two cycles and most certainly got most of the rehearsal time. Luisi had also led the orchestra and most of the same singers in the same opera in January. So even if I had seen the April 24th and May 3rd performances, it's unlikely that I would have picked up a big difference attributable to the person in the pit on the day of.

*** Watching James Levine work with singers (via YouTube) has given me a whole lot more respect for him as a conductor (in part because I kind of dismissed him after listening to some of the orchestral recordings he has made; I was using faulty logic). It has also been really fascinating attending master classes, seeing the difference between when a conductor leads and when a singer leads.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think this thread has got stuck - the last post I can read was made by Larkenfield on the 14th! Just posting to see if the bump works.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I agree, elgars ghost. The thread appears to be stuck. I'm not sure how to contact a mod in a non-Reporting a Post situation.


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I agree, elgars ghost. The thread appears to be stuck. I'm not sure how to contact a mod in a non-Reporting a Post situation.


But I am not having any problems reading any of the posts on this thread.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Johnnie Burgess said:


> But I am not having any problems reading any of the posts on this thread.


I changed my Posts per Page to 20 (from the default, whatever that was), and could all of a sudden see the first 20 posts, rather than just the first 15. Still no option to go to a second page, though.

I then changed it to 40 posts per page, and here I am, replying to a comment from today. But I figure if it goes past 40 posts, we'll be back to not being able to see the newest ones.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Nor me since I went into settings and increased the amount of posts on one page from 15 to 30 - however, the title page of the thread still says there have only been ten posts in all.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

nina foresti said:


> How do I delete my duplicate post above?


On some forums users can delete posts for some time, i think an hour, since posting.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I have removed the duplicate posts and some of the comments pertaining to both - I hope that 'cleans' the thread up.

If you want to contact a mod about problems in a thread, you can either report a post (e.g. a duplication) or just PM one of us.

T-Vox


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Flamme said:


> On some forums users can delete posts for some time, i think an hour, since posting.


An excellent idea. Who hasn't had second thoughts about a post? Contacting the moderators is cumbersome.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Without a good conductor , the best cast in the world is pretty much useless . And a first rate conductor can make a less than ideal cast do its best and enable everyone to give a thrilling performance . 
In operas by say, Bellini, Donizetti and the early Verdi operas, you tend not to notice the conductor as much because the orchestral writing is much simpler and more formulaic than with say, Wagner or Richard Strauss . 
You can play extended Wagner excerpts without singers at an orchestral concert because the orchestra is such a prominent part of the work and the orchestration and harmonies are so complex and sophisticated , but try to do the same with a Bellini opera, and it the results would be absolutely soporific for an audience . 
However, there are some really nice solo passages in Bel Canto operas for instruments such as flute, clarinet or horn . 
But if you listen to enough complete recordings of operas, or see enough DVDs of them, you will notice differences in interpretation by different conductors , especially in Wagner, Richard Strauss, the later Verdi operas, Puccini Bizet, Berg, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky and other famous opera composers . 
Different listeners will prefer different conductors in different operas , often based on the earliest recordings they have heard , but eventually, you will become tolerant of different approaches by different conductors, the same as with orchestral music .


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

Flamme said:


> On some forums users can delete posts for some time, i think an hour, since posting.





Woodduck said:


> An excellent idea. Who hasn't had second thoughts about a post? Contacting the moderators is cumbersome.


You should be able to edit you own posts within a few hours of first making them - except in Area 51, if my memory serves me right. To delete a post, though, you need to contact a mod.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

superhorn said:


> Without a good conductor , the best cast in the world is pretty much useless . And a first rate conductor can make a less than ideal cast do its best and enable everyone to give a thrilling performance .
> In operas by say, Bellini, Donizetti and the early Verdi operas, you tend not to notice the conductor as much because the orchestral writing is much simpler and more formulaic than with say, Wagner or Richard Strauss .
> You can play extended Wagner excerpts without singers at an orchestral concert because the orchestra is such a prominent part of the work and the orchestration and harmonies are so complex and sophisticated , but try to do the same with a Bellini opera, and it the results would be absolutely soporific for an audience .
> However, there are some really nice solo passages in Bel Canto operas for instruments such as flute, clarinet or horn .
> ...


I agree that French and later 19th century opera is more orchestral - but conductors still make a difference in bel canto. Take Bellini. Bonynge sacrifices drama to the beauty of the voice, while Parry's conducting is glacial; both conductors' recordings lack drama and excitement.


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

mountmccabe said:


> I changed my Posts per Page to 20 (from the default, whatever that was), and could all of a sudden see the first 20 posts, rather than just the first 15. Still no option to go to a second page, though.
> 
> I then changed it to 40 posts per page, and here I am, replying to a comment from today. But I figure if it goes past 40 posts, we'll be back to not being able to see the newest ones.


The "default" is 15 posts per page. Try resetting to that and see what happens.

Again, I am not able to replicate the problems being experienced. Seems to be a browser issue and NOT a forum software or vBulletin application problem.

I solely use Firefox v55.0.2 (64 bit) as my browser.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

This thread works fine for me today (Edge, normal 15 post per page default). Not the case yesterday!


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