# Does anybody else find classical guitar to be boring as hell?



## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

*Does anybody else find classical guitar to be so boring?*

Am I the only one here?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I haven't been to hell, so I can't make the comparison.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I think that threads about composers or types of music being boring as hell are boring as hell


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Certainly not. I don't play the guitar and never was a major fan, but just listening to Julian Bream play Walton's 5 bagatelles seems to me a perennial cure against thinking guitar music is 'boring'.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I used to, until I understood what was going on. The guitar, of course, has its own limitations and strengths, but in the end, these can be transcended. But, yes, I admit that depending on the player and the repertoire, guitar can be boring. It's not a very loud instrument, and was developed for use as an accompanying instrument for folk dancers. Sometimes it seems ill-suited to playing classical music. I'm being honest. There is an element of truth in the OP.


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## laurie (Jan 12, 2017)

What with all that unquenchable fire, weeping & gnashing of teeth, Hell doesn't exactly sound "boring"...
:devil:

... but I agree with Becca.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Next friday I'm playing a recital at a local pub! There I'll probably find the answer if guitar is boring. You can't really tell if it's boring in the usual church...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

millionrainbows said:


> I I'm being honest. There is an element of truth in the OP.


No, there's not an element of truth. There's no value in honestly talking nonsense.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Actually, I think guitars come from there.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I have been to several classical guitar concerts that I have enjoyed immensely. That said, I have no classical guitar recordings, and tend to turn off the radio when they play one.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Nobody who matters.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

If its repetitive well yes an music can be boring. Classical guitar played well is a fantastic instrument but like a violin can be horrid if played badly


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## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

I admit, it's not my favorite instrument, though I do really enjoy some guitar concerti (Rodrigo, Castelnuovo-Tedesco). As for solo stuff, I really only enjoy it as background music. It can be relaxing while reading or while lounging in a beach bar in the caribbean.

An exception, though, is Bach's lute suites. I have a recording of them on guitar that is fascinating.


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## T Son of Ander (Aug 25, 2015)

EddieRUKiddingVarese- Thanks for sharing that!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


I have no desire to spend dedicated time listening to classical guitar, but would gladly take it for background music in stores or doctor offices, or on elevators.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I have no desire to spend dedicated time listening to classical guitar, but would gladly take it for background music in stores or doctor offices, or on elevators.


I find this kind of comment curious considering people perform Bach, Mozart and Beethoven on guitar. Plenty of composers have written music for the instrument certainly not lacking in depth or sophistication relative to other instruments. So if there is clearly nothing inherently inferior in the music being performed then what is it about the instrument itself that makes some people automatically consider it only suitable as background music?

In response to the OP the answer is no, and refer to post #3.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

tdc said:


> I find this kind of comment curious considering people perform Bach, Mozart and Beethoven on guitar. Plenty of composers have written music for the instrument certainly not lacking in depth or sophistication relative to other instruments. So if there is clearly nothing inherently inferior in the music being performed then what is it about the instrument itself that makes some people automatically consider it only suitable as background music?
> 
> In response to the OP the answer is no, and refer to post #3.


Probably has something to do with years of non-classical listening that likely spoiled me to prefer electric guitar, though I do like acoustic guitar when played by my favorite non-classical artists. Maybe it is that I find, for classical listening, it lacks dimension compared to orchestral music.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Probably has something to do with years of non-classical listening that likely spoiled me to prefer electric guitar, though I do like acoustic guitar when played by my favorite non-classical artists. Maybe it is that I find, for classical listening, it lacks dimension compared to orchestral music.


I have a longstanding dream of hearing the Grosse Fuge played by an electric guitar quartet, with big amps and plenty of distortion where it counts.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

while I love the instrument, I think that the classical repertory for the guitar is very underwhelming, at least for my tastes. There's no comparison with the repertory of an instrument like the piano.
There are exceptions, but I suspect there's a reason if many of my favorite pieces played on the guitar are actually transcriptions of compositions written for other instruments.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

My first instrument. I switched to playing the violin because I wanted to play in an orchestra. But I still love the guitar. I don't find it as boring as hell. Saying that, I'm not sure hell is boring. 

To spite this thread, I should have a guitar listening project.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I LOVE the guitar in ensemble works such as Vivaldi's concertos for lute or guitar, but when solo I don't care much for the timbre.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Love classical guitar, it's a very precious experience when it's good music played well. It really is one of the sweetest sounds imaginable. Good composers should write more for it, trying to emphasize its qualities.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Classical guitar comes in a distant last for me, after flamenco guitar, rock (electric) guitar, and folk or world music guitar. My impression is that the guitar is meant to tell wild musical tales, and to hear it fettered and polite and docile in its classical role is like seeing a humbled, caged beast of prey lying in the corner of a cage. Just my opinion.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

Heitor Villa-Lobos - Concerto for Guitar and Orchestra

Probably the apex of current classical guitar music.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2017)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


The classical guitar itself isn't boring... it's just wood, metal, and plastic... However are the people who actually PLAY the classical guitar boring? - oh, hell yeah, not even debatable...

I don't want to be unjust or unfair or unkind or uncharitable or any of the other words that begin with "un" that I can't think of right now so I will leaven my statements (which, by the way, are facts, not opinions) by stating that one of the benefits of the music produced by playing the classical guitar is to serve as a safe, gentle, and effective anesthetic during minor (and I must stress "minor" not, repeat, not "major"" surgery...

And so if this will settle this issue to everyone's satisfaction I will be moving on before being rudely asked to leave...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Milos The Guitar: Albeniz No.1 Granada






Tarrega Recuerdos De La Alhambra.
Needless to say I love the guitar.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Surely, _any_ instrument can be boring in the wrong hands or memorable in the right ones. I never expect the guitar to project like a piano that normally has _230_ strings. Classical guitar is more of a chamber instrument, capable of all kinds of intricate subtleties and shadings.

John Williams is one of my favorites and I used to listen to him by the hour, because the music played by a master doesn't have to beat the listener over the head and yet is still capable of great intensity and passion, able to tell a story. Spanish music and transcriptions on classical guitar... superb! _Romantico_... brave, proud, dramatic, dignified and noble, perhaps with a tinge of melancholy and a profound sense of aloneness.

So, really, are the vague generalities necessary that a well-renown composer or an instrument is boring in itself across the board, painted with a broad critical brush without any distinctions being made about the sound of different types of guitars, which can greatly vary, and the person playing it?

Sometimes one may have to stay open to find the best performances and perhaps realize that the sound of the classical guitar is not sufficiently loud enough to force others to listen. It's more of an intimate instrument capable of drawing in the willing listener. The expectation of hearing something excellent on a smaller scale can be unexpectedly rewarding, and this is one of the few chordal instruments, like the piano and harp, that can sing under the mastery of just one person. IMO, genius can be found on any instrument.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

On an only slightly related topic: Back when the Catholic Church was attempting to be trendy and relevant, guitar masses used to drive me crazy.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

There are some beautiful pieces for guitar - but yes it does get a bit boring after a short time.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2017)

Becca said:


> I think that threads about composers or types of music being boring as hell are boring as hell


What _she _said...


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


Why did you make this thread? There are many hard working musicians who don't think that what they do is boring. People should be happy for the diversity that's around us. Seeing some good in different music can be a way to "understand" other people and not make them unhappy...


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I haven't been to hell, so I can't make the comparison.


You never met my mother in law.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

@Larkenfield: _Asturias_ is the Great Exception. I knew that somebody would post Asturias as their example of the excellence of classical guitar, and it is excellent indeed. It also serves to prove the point, in its obvious Spanishness and its Bolero-like increasing tension, that the guitar is intended to tell wild musical tales.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2017)

MarkW said:


> On an only slightly related topic: Back when the Catholic Church was attempting to be trendy and relevant, guitar masses used to drive me crazy.


I'm fairly certain that you probably would have found them far more sonically enjoyable and spiritually uplifting if they had been played by Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, or Jimmy Page... well, maybe not Jimmy Page - read further for why....

They used to play at Holy Rosary Cathedral on Richards Street here in Vancouver when they were in town as a way to centre themselves from the craziness of life on the road... Something to do with "mindfulness"...

It was pretty cool seeing them... Clapton always played everything straight - no frills, no extended solos, no guitar "effects" like distortion, wah wah pedals, etc... the performance only ran off the tracks and crashed when he began to sing along to his own accompaniment... That was absolutely dreadful... Think of a really bad Muddy Waters imitation singing "I Am the Bread of Life" in this sort of horrible raspy croak and you've pretty much nailed it...

Jeff Beck always and I mean always started out playing everything note perfect - straight no frills - but within like 30 seconds he would start "bending" every single note he played as a way to "sustain" the note waaaaaayyyyy past the point at which it should have been sustained until he had completely bent them out of all recognizable shape... Eventually everything he played and I do mean everything he played sounded like "Train Kept A-Rollin" which was pretty cool at first but quickly grew tiresome...

Everything and once again I do mean everything that Jimmy Page played sounded like "Stairway to Heaven"... The Pastor would announce the next hymn as "Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken" and Page would launch into a feedback-drenched version of "Stairway to Heaven"...

Then the pastor would announce that the next hymn is "At That First Eucharist" and again Page would launch into yet another feedback-drenched version of "Stairway to Heaven"...

When it was time for the third and final hymn which was usually "The Church of Christ in Every Age" guess what would happen... yep... yet another feedback-drenched version of "Stairway to Heaven"...

This entire scenario repeated itself three separate times... After the third time the Pastor told him that the Pope himself had called and requested that all Catholic churches but especially Holy Rosary Cathedral should spend more time in quiet contemplation and less time spent listening to shredding guitar solos... He bought it (not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer if you catch my drift) and hasn't been back since... Whew! - Thank God - literally and figuratively...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

No..............................


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Here is my contribution: a bit of classic (flamenco) guitar as Manuel Moreno "Morao" accompanies Terremoto _por Bulerias_. Check out the fingerwork--Spain is full of such virtuosos......


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Classical guitar is certainly not my favorite....but I have to say that the plucked instruments, in a solo role, generally do not do too much for me. Guitar, harp....eh....can be good, but not my favorites. 
the sameness of sound, the unvarying articulation, the relatively limited dynamic range, gets tedious to my ears...


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2017)

MarkW said:


> On an only slightly related topic: Back when the Catholic Church was attempting to be trendy and relevant, guitar masses used to drive me crazy.


MarkW - I took your reply and turned it into a New Thread on the "Religious Music" section... Thanks for the inspiration!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

norman bates said:


> There's no comparison with the repertory of an instrument like the piano.
> .


I don't know anything about guitar music really, but I know a bit about piano and about lute. It's not obvious to me that what you say here is true of the lute repertory. Just to take a one example there's a sequence of fantazias by Francesco da Milano which I'd say are as psychologically probing as anything Chopin wrote, at least in short form.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I have been a bit bored after twenty minutes or so when I've listened to cds of unaccompanied lute music, so would probably feel the same about guitar.

But when guitar is mixed with other instruments, I adore the sound, and never feel bored.

Also, I would definitely go to a classical guitar concert if I got the chance. The live atmosphere & the fact that the performances would have little breaks of applause or explanation in between - these factors would help me to soar beyond my own petty limitations.

Because if *I* find classical guitar boring, it is in no way any reflection on *classical guitar*!


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Heck148 said:


> Classical guitar is certainly not my favorite....but I have to say that the plucked instruments, in a solo role, generally do not do too much for me. Guitar, harp....eh....can be good, but not my favorites.
> the sameness of sound, the unvarying articulation, the relatively limited dynamic range, gets tedious to my ears...


The magic of the electric guitar is that it is largely freed of those very constraints. If classical composers turned with widespread enthusiasm to writing for electric guitar, who knows what wonders we might hear?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


Before you dismiss it completely, I just want to check you've heard the Villa Lobos Etudes.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> I have been a bit bored after twenty minutes or so when I've listened to cds of unaccompanied lute music, so would probably feel the same about guitar.


That's a really revealing comment, I think 20 Minutes is about right, max, this is short form music. Your expectations are inappropriate.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Ingélou said:


> Also, I would definitely go to a classical guitar concert if I got the chance. The live atmosphere & the fact that the performances would have little breaks of applause or explanation in between - these factors would help me to soar beyond my own petty limitations.


Thank you for reminding me of some great concerts by Andres Segovia and Christopher Parkening.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Why did you make this thread? There are many hard working musicians who don't think that what they do is boring. People should be happy for the diversity that's around us. Seeing some good in different music can be a way to "understand" other people and not make them unhappy...


Yet the OP has a legitimate question. They find classical guitar boring and want to know if they are the only one. I suppose it could be a back end way of trying to say that classical guitar sucks without appearing like a jerk, but that is not what they said. So I take them on face value, that as nice as classical guitar is, it is not for them (or me).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Ingélou said:


> I have been a bit bored after twenty minutes or so when I've listened to cds of unaccompanied lute music, so would probably feel the same about guitar.


I do think that it is very hard to make music as interesting with a single instrument than with multiple instruments. Exceptions for me are that I do somewhat like piano sonatas (Beethoven's anyway) and solo violin. However, that said, I am not listening to either, not that they bore me but that I am too preoccupied with opera at the moment to listen to much of any instrumental music.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I have to admit that classical guitar music has never particularly appealed to me either - I can on occasion listen to a smattering of Rodrigo's orchestral works featuring guitar because the instrument gives the music a pleasant Iberian pungency but I'm not interesting in investigating guitar music any further.


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

I've not been to Hell, but I have heard Rodrigo's "Concerto de Aranjuez."

It is a beautiful instrument. It could be that the negative reactions are not due to the instrument, but to the limited classical guitar repertoire. I love classical guitar, but there are not many composers for classical guitar to whom I can listen. Bach, obviously. But most classical guitar works that find their way to classical radio sound as if they were written as background music for bullfight scenes. That stuff is truly awful and highly repetitious.

So, my theory is that it's not the instrument, but the limited (and bad) literature.

Someone mentioned Walton's pieces; they are gorgeous. I also enjoy Leo Brouwer's works. Paul Galbraith's Haydn transcriptions are beautiful. Behold:






-09


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


Try this for excitement






And this






And this






And even this


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## Omicron9 (Oct 13, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Try this for excitement
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love the 3rd mvmt of "Moonlight!"


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> I don't know anything about guitar music really, but I know a bit about piano and about lute. It's not obvious to me that what you say here is true of the lute repertory. Just to take a one example there's a sequence of fantazias by Francesco da Milano which I'd say are as psychologically probing as anything Chopin wrote, at least in short form.


I'm very curious to hear those pieces, if you have youtube links it would be truly appreciated.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

norman bates said:


> I'm very curious to hear those pieces, if you have youtube links it would be truly appreciated.


The performer who made me think that the late Fantazias of Francesco da Milano are "psychological" is Sandro Volta, who recorded for Brilliant.

The recording opens with a sequence of 10 ricercari which I guess are early pieces because the fun begins after that, with an extended series of fantazias. Volta relishes the introspectiveness of the music, he reveals a music which is every bit as psychological as Chopin's nocturnes. He consistently articulates the pieces into small cells, deconstructing the music into its components rather than highlighting gorgeous melodies at the expense of polyphonic complexity. The instrument is muted and reminds me of the clavichord which Clemencic used for Cabezon. There's a similar tension as I hear in Cabezon, a tension between the extreme expressiveness and finesse of the musical gestures, and the unpolished sound of the instrument. Love that sort of thing!

The recording is too reverberant, he's playing in his bathroom, but for me it's not a deal breaker, but it is a shame.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> @Larkenfield: _Asturias_ is the Great Exception. I knew that somebody would post Asturias as their example of the excellence of classical guitar, and it is excellent indeed. It also serves to prove the point, in its obvious Spanishness and its Bolero-like increasing tension, that the guitar is intended to tell wild musical tales.


There are many other John Williams examples that are far more subtle and introspective, so I don't automatically equate the guitar with wildness, and really, Asturias is wild abandon, without its introspective moments and quietude which apparently goes unnoticed and not worth commenting on? I posted it for those with short attention spans who'd say that anything with less energy was "boring". What about some listeners? Are they capable of being boring? Or is it always put on the music or the instrument when there may actually be something more there?  Do people always shout out loud when they're making love? Or is there also something real that can come from a quiet passion and intensity? If some of you are lucky enough to meet the right person, you'll find out!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Omicron9 said:


> Love the 3rd mvmt of "Moonlight!"


Yes, me too. It's right for the music.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2017)

I played classical guitar for some 40 years before switching to the piano. I don't like a lot of music that is written for it (often rather simplistic or relies on cliched patterns, or it's not idiomatic at all and ferociously hard to play), and I think most transcriptions sound better on the original instruments. I do like a lot of lute music, though, and I do prefer it on the lute for its extended range, although I prefer the timbre of the guitar. I guess 10 and 11 string guitars provide the best of both worlds.

It was a huge part of my life for such a long time, so I feel almost sad for moving on, but the heart needs what it needs.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> The performer who made me think that the late Fantazias of Francesco da Milano are "psychological" is Sandro Volta, who recorded for Brilliant.
> 
> The recording opens with a sequence of 10 ricercari which I guess are early pieces because the fun begins after that, with an extended series of fantazias. Volta relishes the introspectiveness of the music, he reveals a music which is every bit as psychological as Chopin's nocturnes. He consistently articulates the pieces into small cells, deconstructing the music into its components rather than highlighting gorgeous melodies at the expense of polyphonic complexity. The instrument is muted and reminds me of the clavichord which Clemencic used for Cabezon. There's a similar tension as I hear in Cabezon, a tension between the extreme expressiveness and finesse of the musical gestures, and the unpolished sound of the instrument. Love that sort of thing!
> 
> The recording is too reverberant, he's playing in his bathroom, but for me it's not a deal breaker, but it is a shame.


thank you. I've listened right now to the fantasia 33 on youtube played by Emanuele Buono and I've truly appreciated it. Beautiful music indeed.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I just haven't developed a taste for classical guitar music, much preferring electric guitar in rock music.


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


I agree to the extent that I don't think the classical guitar is a very great instrument like the piano and violin definitely are: the guitar has a very soft, groggy, 'boring' sound (somewhat comparable to a harp). I guess it is no coincidence that very few composers were/are interested in it and that it is usually only used as companion (to a lead singer).

Yet, the weakness of the guitar has turned into a major advantage in the modern electrical era: prerhaps because the sound of the guitar is so soft-spoken, it got amply amplified (and distorted) by electrical means and wow, what an divinely expressive instrument is the electric guitar! It can sing, scream, hammer, whisper, cry and even sound like a motor saw. The electric guitar isn't even inferior to the violin (which instrument is also very expressive)!

BTW, as a 'normal' kid who loved rock music I have tried to learn to play the guitar (electric and classical). The guitar has frets which makes the finger positions easy. I have never understood how violin (and cello etc) players can learn where to exactly put their fingers without frets. Another great thing about the guitar: the neck is flat so you can easily play chords.

One thing that bugs me when guitar players are broadcasted on TV: the camera man always zooms in on the right hand who strums but the interesting part is what the left hand does but that hand is never shown (sometimes I wonder if musicians don't want the camera man to film the left hand in order not to make public the 'magic tricks' of the musician)...


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

norman bates said:


> thank you. I've listened right now to the fantasia 33 on youtube played by Emanuele Buono and I've truly appreciated it. Beautiful music indeed.


Ah yes I see he's recorded it for Naxos, Sandro Volta is better I think at making sense of the music's structure and it's dramatic contrasts, and he's more introspective while being less "nocturnal" Basically in the terms of the thread's title, Volta is more exciting.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Strange Magic said:


> The magic of the electric guitar is that it is largely freed of those very constraints. If classical composers turned with widespread enthusiasm to writing for electric guitar, who knows what wonders we might hear?


agree...electric guitar is a completely different animal....


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Strange Magic said:


> Classical guitar comes in a distant last for me, after flamenco guitar, rock (electric) guitar, and folk or world music guitar. My impression is that the guitar is meant to tell wild musical tales, and to hear it fettered and polite and docile in its classical role is like seeing a humbled, caged beast of prey lying in the corner of a cage. Just my opinion.


You don't have to go for the polite stuff all the time. There is quite a bit of contemporary and other interesting music being played on the nylon string guitar.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

norman bates said:


> thank you. I've listened right now to the fantasia 33 on youtube played by Emanuele Buono and I've truly appreciated it. Beautiful music indeed.


Hopkinson Smith has an entire album of Da Milano. It's available on Tidal (and probably elsewhere).


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is some non classical, instrumental acoustic guitar that I like a lot:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

A crown of progressive rock is Genesis' _Selling England by the Pound_. And the huge diamond Jewel in that Crown is Steve Hackett's "classic" electric guitar (with background) instrumental in Firth of Fifth, a chillingly beautiful example of what the electric guitar can do--or could do--in the hands of an inspired composer. The whole piece is magical, but the transcendental moments begin at 5:47....


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

^
Has been one of my top favourite songs for 4 decades.

Also, do check out Steve Hackett's version of Firth of Fifth on his Genesis Revisited album (sung by John Wetton).


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## Agamemnon (May 1, 2017)

Of course electric guitar = Jimi Hendrix. Even in a very simple piece (without much virtuosity or explosive orgasms) like Villanova Junction he demonstrates both that he makes the guitar the direct expression of himself and how many ways the electric guitar can sound:


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Try Micheal Hedges


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

There are times when the ONLY music I want to listen to is guitar or lute.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Micheal Hedges... Wow! My first time hearing him. His depth of soul and rhythmic pulse is just amazing... without having to club the listener into submission or scream? Who would have thunk it!


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Here is some non classical, instrumental acoustic guitar that I like a lot:


Oh yeah... Loved it!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The guitar is a versatile instrument capable of taking on different personas. I listen to and play both electric and acoustic guitar and have for over 20 years, and personally there is not a style of guitar I find more expressive or more enjoyable to listen to and play than classical guitar.

_The harmonious efforts which our guitarists produce unconsciously represent one of the marvels of natural art._
Manuel de Falla

_The [guitar is the] instrument most complete and richest in its harmonic and polyphonic possibilities._
Manuel de Falla

_The classical guitar has a dynamic to it unlike a regular acoustic guitar or an electric guitar. You know, there's times when you should play and there's times when you gotta hold back. It's an extremely dynamic instrument._
Steve Vai

_The guitar is a small orchestra. It is polyphonic. Every string is a different color, a different voice._
Andres Segovia

_I love the guitar for its harmony; it is my constant companion in all my travels._
Nicolo Paganini

_The guitar is a wonderful instrument which is understood by few._
Franz Schubert

_Nothing is more beautiful than a guitar, save perhaps two._
Fredric Chopin

_Claude Debussy defined the guitar as an expressive harpsicord. I believe that is the best definition ever given of the Spanish guitar. This phrase is the starting point for my Concierto de Aranjuez. Our guitar is the only survivor of the rich and anarchic instrumental wildlife of the Middle Ages._
Joaquin Rodrigo


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Larkenfield said:


> Micheal Hedges... Wow! My first time hearing him. His depth of soul and rhythmic pulse is just amazing... without having to club the listener into submission or screaming? Who would have thunk it? ;


Yeah, I can remember the first Micheal Hedges record I brought- I put my guitar away for 6 months, couldn't play it after listening to him play............... but play my own style now so all good (not the stuff I post on my blog on here lol)


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Just finished an album by Hedges. Now some Wes Montgomery. Maybe some Hopkinson Smith later. In addition to the music, the sound quality on several of the albums I have by him is astonishing.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

^ Records, I hope


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> ^ Records, I hope


No, but one recommendation actually came from a vinyl fan. Said it was one of the best albums in his collection. Originally an analog recording from the 70s on Astree.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kontrapunctus said:


> I played classical guitar for some 40 years before switching to the piano. I don't like a lot of music that is written for it (often rather simplistic or relies on cliched patterns, or it's not idiomatic at all and ferociously hard to play), and I think most transcriptions sound better on the original instruments. I do like a lot of lute music, though, and I do prefer it on the lute for its extended range, although I prefer the timbre of the guitar. I guess 10 and 11 string guitars provide the best of both worlds.
> 
> It was a huge part of my life for such a long time, so I feel almost sad for moving on, but the heart needs what it needs.


Why, or rather _how_, did it take 40 years to reach this conclusion?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Since the sound of a guitar does little for me, I find classical guitar enjoyable mainly in small doses. But even in larger doses it never becomes as boring as hell. Hell is electric guitar.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

HECK NO! I love classical guitar; I have played it since I was 7 years old. I have a special affection for the works of Francisco Tarrega, Fernando Sor, Andres Segovia, Heitor Villa-Lobos, Isaac Albeniz and many more.
I will admit, though, that it does not keep my attention as long as other instruments do. To say it puts you to sleep actually is a compliment to the instrument- isn't it _supposed_ to be a relaxing and luxurious instrument? Chicks dig it too.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

For lute lovers, I see that Tidal (probably Spotify too) has added a number of long OOP Hopkinson Smith recordings.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

PresenTense said:


> Am I the only one here?


No. I also find classical guitar boring as hell; noisy as hell, too! One is always aware of the "sausage-making".

I admit, if I was given a choice between listening to classical guitar music and waterboarding, I would need to call a friend to help me choose.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I listened to some music by Anthony Holborne today, played by Christopher Wilson, sometimes with Shirley Rumsey. i don't think that more poignant has music ever been written - and how much more touching and humane Wilson's reading of Anthony Holborne's art is, compared with the maudlin melodrama of 18th and 19th century music! It's the strange synthesis of sadness and sensuality which is so wonderful in Christopher Wilson's performances.

Yesterday I listened to Hopkinson Smith's Francesco de Milano, and Paul Beier's on Stradivarius, I much prefer Beier.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)




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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


>


Shame the sound on the Visée is a bit pony (cockney rhyming slang - you can look it up yourself)

There's a CD of late pieces by Visée by Toyohiko Satoh using lute only which is really special for me.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Why, or rather _how_, did it take 40 years to reach this conclusion?


It's like water dripping on a rock: over time, it will bore a hole in it!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mandryka said:


> Shame the sound on the Visée is a bit pony (cockney rhyming slang - you can look it up yourself)
> 
> There's a CD of late pieces by Visée by Toyohiko Satoh using lute only which is really special for me.


I was thinking of you when I posted that, Mandryka, but I thought I should not mention it, surely not, but so it is! I'm glad you responded to that. I think it's a neat setting for that music. This is the kind of stuff that has to be arranged for guitar, and it's amazing the hurdles Hoppstock is able to jump. That's a kind of "good thing" about the guitar that is often overlooked, but if you see it done, you gain a new respect for the poor b******s who have to play it. It looks extremely difficult and "unsuited" for guitar, doesn't it?
The Van Halen video shows Les Paul to be much more tolerant than most older folks…re: 77 Sunset Strip.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)




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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

no, it's not boring, quite on the opposite.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> A crown of progressive rock is Genesis' _Selling England by the Pound_. And the huge diamond Jewel in that Crown is Steve Hackett's "classic" electric guitar (with background) instrumental in Firth of Fifth, a chillingly beautiful example of what the electric guitar can do--or could do--in the hands of an inspired composer. The whole piece is magical, but the transcendental moments begin at 5:47....


Ultra cool example - my compliments... just wanted to take a break from my usual nonsense to let you know that there were at least half a dozen of us (each one of us cooler than cool with me leading the pack if I may be so humble to state) who appreciated your post and understood the reference without needing it to be explained... Nothing is more discouraging than having to explain even the most childishly simple cultural reference to "geniuses"...


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Since the sound of a guitar does little for me, I find classical guitar enjoyable mainly in small doses. But even in larger doses it never becomes as boring as hell. Hell is electric guitar.


Said by someone who never watched these...






or this...






Woodduck, I really didn't want to call you out in a public forum like this (I'm lying) but sometimes someone can be so egregiously wrongheaded that they need a wee bit of comeuppance in order to restore life's natural balance... so consider yourself properly rebuked... no need to thank me... being able to enlighten you is reward enough...

As always, best wishes!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> Said by someone who never watched these...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you are going to change Woodduck's impression of electric guitar as Hell with those examples.

As technically good those examples are, they do not move me, and I would not waste my time listening to them. Here is some electric guitar that really moves me:


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## Pesaro (Oct 4, 2017)

There are many wonderful guitar concertos, especially by Rodrigo, Villa-Lobos and Ponce. I find the concertos generally more interesting than the solo works but there are plenty of great solo works, especially by Hispanic composers. The instrument that I have a problem with is the harpsichord. I find the sound to be ugly. It is a good thing it was replaced by the piano, one of my favorite instruments.


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

It's better than non-classical guitar, but in general, I'm not a huge fan of the instrument.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Nice examples of electric guitar have been presented here but surely they have about as much relevance to the classical guitar as a fish riding a bicycle or the use of a blowtorch instead of a match to light a candle. The classical guitar is more of a chamber instrument capable of all kinds of subtleties that the rock guitar will never be capable of in a million years. Maybe that’s why it’s called the classical guitar instead of the rock guitar. But both played well by a master musician in their proper context can be far more than boring. Instead, the instrument is being blamed.


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> Nice examples of electric guitar have been presented here but surely they have about as much relevance to the classical guitar as a fish riding a bicycle or the use of a blowtorch instead of a match to light a candle. The classical guitar is more of a chamber instrument capable of all kinds of subtleties that the rock guitar will never be capable of in a million years. Maybe that's why it's called the classical guitar instead of the rock guitar-but both played well by a master musician in their proper context can be far more than boring. Instead, the instruments are being blamed.


When you entered the forum and checked your hat and coat in the cloakroom you may have inadvertently left your sense of humour in your breast pocket... Seriously, Larks, lighten up, for Christ's sake... it's perfectly acceptable to have a bit of a laugh here... try being less "literal" - you may find it infinitely more enjoyable than feeling that you need to continually scold us...

Also, I offer this as genuinely well-intentioned advice... try writing in your own unique "voice" to express your thoughts and insights... maybe less use of clichés and arguments borrowed from other members and more use of personal originality of expression perhaps?

Best wishes!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I don't think you are going to change Woodduck's impression of electric guitar as Hell with those examples. /Quote]
> 
> I think you're not giving Woodduck enough credit, Fritz, he's a pretty clever guy who's not afraid to admit that he's wrong and that he's seen the error of his ways...
> 
> ...


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Here's a boring piece for you guys.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

We have (at least I have) enjoyed here some quite excellent examples of several sorts of guitar play and repertoire. it would be helpful, though, if posters were a little more clear in what exactly they were referring to. For example, Larkenfield remarked that "the classical guitar is more of a chamber instrument capable of all kinds of subtleties that the rock guitar will never be capable of in a million years". I assume here that when he refers to the "rock guitar", he intends "electric guitar". In any case, I think the electric guitar is, or could be, certainly quite capable of the same subtlety as any other form of guitar, as the subtlety would be the product, the result, of both the performer and of the composition, not necessarily or exclusively that of the instrument. I don't think critics of classical guitar attack the instrument; it is the repertoire usually heard on the instrument that fails to enthrall. Mind you, it is not pure coincidence that the big chunk of the classical guitar repertoire that does engage many auditors is by Spanish or more broadly Iberian composers, as the Iberian element adds a dash of Special Sauce to such music on such an instrument, such is the strength of the association. Flamenco guitar represents the largest possible helping of that Spanish Special Sauce, and the instrument with its action, its stringing quite close to the body of the guitar, and its very short sustain, is built for delivering the flamenco sound or _aire_. But I think the very versatile electric guitar, in the hands of an inspired composer and of a virtuoso player could be capable of great "classical" music, dramatic music, subtle music also, and could quite expand our universe of concertos and chamber works.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Just listening to Jean Francaix's concerto for guitar and chamber string orchestra. Not the least bit bored.

Voici...






or if you're pushed for time: 3rd movt - Presto, ma non troppo:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Renowned classical/acoustic guitarists: https://www.google.com/search?q=Famous+classical+guitar+musicians&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#mie=g,,Famous%20classical%20guitar%20musicians,H4sIAAAAAAAAAIVTu47UMBTFEqBdzxar0E3DrKCgy-S1k2lBIApWSLCijRLnPbbjiT15-DP4DoTEJ1AyHQ0NEgUdf0DJ7OKbERXduT7n3nMf8sk99-JFzJqdXBAaS1mRmC6KXaXidsF2h7CKudyjE5vZy7rw_D06vYHuunPWgFvBJGDCyGBwQOuBG-yEjij3aGYXtuMu621UdoZZM-HpPcI3uHTd1AfCuww0Mc7eoKjROIqPqjSBl_uSgLeXBEQALnWZA6ZEBJDdCV0swa5NUu4Y1aUTcv_okdQuBHRFtsqoVuF6tYQMbyDaNOgPYWSeQ7YKmcl1xdCNYvIOOWVQSGtODc43rZpELBU9BEmi6x6sLyVLNHjQXKdTWYe0Pczaix7274VM0OPc49Gj26ThelqhF20UMJtIKhfyN0UXTW1tewqLLvhAJ6JjPoXRg5Ynk0k96BAOm9JaSDZtV7sFNJzTbbk9HqosjCgQjtTFT_Qdzc5__f7xYP4Vvf_w5Rs60HefZlJZnxGevc3UdXPVpFU-Wp-Q9RHh81dNIzM6vslorLL0urEe4_vPuarUaM3x2fz2WE5b0id35hhPkaX-LZZZBJ9eZSzJWvk6t95h_KyhNCOqarj1Ej-aP7TJ9GDf_pOoaJudiNjfpEP5C_w_0dkfUDxxwH0DAAA


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Try Britten's Nocturnal played by Julian Bream as an example of how not boring the guitar can be.:lol: or anything by the astonishing South African guitarist Steve Eliovson.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Strange Magic said:


> But I think the very versatile electric guitar, in the hands of an inspired composer and of a virtuoso player could be capable of great "classical" music, dramatic music, subtle music also, and could quite expand our universe of concertos and chamber works.


I think it is true that an inspired composer could do interesting things with the electric guitar, but I think the instrument itself is more fit for use in rock and popular music. The primary ways it has advantages over the acoustic guitar are more different sound effect possibilities but also volume and sustain. When a composer is using the instrument to its strength this way, the overall texture of the piece will generally be sacrificed a little because the guitar will tend to over power the other instruments. For me what makes classical music so effective is largely the harmonies, or combined effect of many different musical lines at once, I think the traditional classical guitar is a better instrument for this type of use (creating clear harmonies and counterpoint). There is no doubt a talented composer could find more subtle uses for an electric guitar, and utilize many of the different sound effects and tones, but in dong so I think they would for the most part need to sacrifice a lot of that volume and sustain, (in other words no David Gilmour or Jimmy Page type solos) once that is the case I'm not convinced that the instrument would be better suited for classical music than straight acoustic instruments (composers have not exhausted the sound effect possibilities of acoustic instruments).

This is why I suspect we don't already have more pieces in the repertoire featuring electric guitar, not because it wouldn't work, of course potentially great things could be written with it, as is the case for most any instrument. But I think the aspects of electric guitar you have come to know and love in rock music, would not work as well in a classical music context.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Traditionally, most classical composers learned piano (the great majority) or violin. Some few became proficient with the guitar. I assume that most of today's classical composers learn keyboard play. It also may be true (certainly our TC population shows this) that there is a sharp divide between those lovers and composers of classical music who also love guitar rock, and those who hate it. This is at variance with past practice involving piano and violin--composers loved both instruments and often wrote extensively for both. So we may have, and have had for the past 60-70 years, a large body of classical composers who either never were exposed to the electric guitar as a legitimate, plausible instrument for classical expression or just viscerally disliked electric guitar rock and its primary instrument, or, very likely, both conditions obtained. This certainly would explain the lack of serious classical composition for the electric guitar: "What will my peers think?! My mentor?"


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

I've read some pretty over-ripe rubbish on this thread (granted most of it was written by me but that is neither here nor there...) but I do want to settle this issue once and for all because the incessant arguing is getting tiresome...

FACT: if Mozart had access to an electric guitar he would have written EXCLUSIVELY for that instrument and I offer this as inarguable proof -






and this -






and this -






FACT: if Beethoven had access to an electric guitar he would have written EXCLUSIVELY for that instrument and I offer this as inarguable proof -






and this -






Good luck trying to disprove my assertion that these electric guitar versions are superior...

FACT: Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc. etc. etc. - everything and I do mean everything - would have been written "for electric guitar" if they had been able to get their hands on this -









FACT: Whether you're talking 1650, 1750, 1850, 1950 and even up to this very day... it all comes down to chicks and nobody and I do mean nobody gets more chicks than the guy that wields the axe... "Art" will always take a distant second place to getting the girl...

FACT: If you think that Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc. etc. etc. would have chosen the harpsichord, pianoforte, piano, violin, flute, trumpet or any other "classical" instrument instead of this "classic" vintage Gibson "Les Paul" with sunburst finish you my "friends" are completely delusional... (the quotation marks around the word friends is a sly dig in case I was being too subtle and it flew right over your head...)

Now that I've settled this issue to everyone's satisfaction with FACTS which are virtually inarguable let's put this one to bed shall we?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

^^^ No cigar. About on the level with accordion transcriptions. No, old music on a different instrument is not what we're looking for here, though Walter/Wendy Carlos and of course the pianists playing Bach are the great exception. We are in search of wholly new and original "classical" works composed for the electric guitar that capitalize on its unique properties. My personal come-close example of the Steve Hackett/Firth of Fifth snippet is the sort of way forward that I had in mind. But the proffered samples are, shall we say, interesting.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> ^^^ No cigar. About on the level with accordion transcriptions. No, old music on a different instrument is not what we're looking for here, though Walter/Wendy Carlos and of course the pianists playing Bach are the great exception. We are in search of wholly new and original "classical" works composed for the electric guitar that capitalize on its unique properties. My personal come-close example of the Steve Hackett/Firth of Fifth snippet is the sort of way forward that I had in mind. But the proffered samples are, shall we say, interesting.


You must have stopped reading my post before the last line which reads... "Now that I've settled this issue to everyone's satisfaction with FACTS which are virtually inarguable let's put this one to bed shall we?" I even capitalized the word "FACTS" to preclude further argument but hey... no hard feelings, the really cool Steve Hackett/Firth of Fifth reference forgives all sins... Once last piece of advice... I would come back and edit out that crack about "on the level with accordion transcriptions" lest you enrage and infuriate our resident accordion aficionados... they can be an awfully nasty bunch when provoked...


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Pesaro said:


> There are many wonderful guitar concertos, especially by Rodrigo, Villa-Lobos and Ponce.


Also check out Castelnuovo-Tedesco. His no 1 is probably my favorite of all guitar concertos.



> I find the concertos generally more interesting than the solo works but there are plenty of great solo works, especially by Hispanic composers.


My main problem with guitar is actually precisely that it tends to be so dominated by the "Spanish" sound. It's not that I dislike it, but it makes for somewhat one dimensional literature.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Yes, the classical guitar often carries the Spanish sound... but is typically full of romance, nobility, the great emotional polarity between men and women, and passion, that just cannot be found to the same degree IMO in any other culture. Spanish sentiments are very basic, direct and earthy, certainly when compared to the fussy intellectualism of the French, the philosophical heaviness of the German, and opera during lunch with the Italians. 

It’s a wonderful instrument that is capable of expressing great emotional depth, from loss and tragedy to joy and back again, on such a subtle and expressive instrument, in the right hands. Maybe it takes something like unrequited love or heartbreak to fully appreciate the depth of it or those who at least understand that rock guitar videos would be more appropriate in the non-classical section where people don’t have to be bothered who aren’t sufficiently interested or convinced that it belongs here. 

It’s not that the classical guitar demands that somebody listen to it hours a day. But it often says something on the right occasion about the richness of Spanish culture, and my feeling is that it’s often very much under represented and appreciated. They have their own slant on things that can be honest and quite refreshing because they tend not to over intellectualize existence. Countries do have national characteristics or there would be nothing to distinguish them.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

There is actually a lot more more to the classical guitar than stereotypical 'Spanish' literature. The instrument is also heavily used in 'gypsy' music, in the middle East and in African and Afro-cuban music. In some of these you get classical guitar technique used to play traditional folk music.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

eugeneonagain said:


> There is actually a lot more more to the classical guitar than stereotypical 'Spanish' literature. The instrument is also heavily used in 'gypsy' music, in the middle East and in African and Afro-cuban music. In some of these you get classical guitar technique used to play traditional folk music.


Again, we must be at some pains to distinguish between the physical instrument of the classical guitar, and the body of works--from Bach to Whomever--that are customarily associated in the mind with the term "classical guitar". I mentioned before that I felt the guitar, as an instrument--whether classical, flamenco, electric, and all the other kinds--was best suited to tell wild musical tales. So my response to the OP was to say that, Yes, I too find "classical guitar" as repertoire not my cup of tea ("boring as hell" is harsh, too harsh). But pick up any guitar and begin to play "gypsy" music, Middle Eastern, African, Afro-Cuban, "folk" music, rock music, certainly flamenco, and the instrument quickly absorbs and assumes the energy and character of the music.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> ...those who at least understand that rock guitar videos would be more appropriate in the non-classical section where people don't have to be bothered who aren't sufficiently interested or convinced that it belongs here.


Larks, here's the solution to your problems - it's quick, easy, and relatively painless...

Click on my username above the avatar...

Click on "View Profile"...

Click on "Add to Ignore List"

You will be asked " Are you sure you want to add Nudge and a Wink to your ignore list?"...

Please please please (I'm begging you for the love of God) click on "Yes"... You will no longer need to get your knickers in a twist (or your panties in a bunch or your briefs in a bundle - I don't know which phrase Americans use - choose whichever is appropriate) whenever you see my username, avatar, and whatever bit on cheerful high-spirited nonsense I'm currently engaged in...

As for which forum gets chosen it all comes down to numbers... The "Non Classical" section (and the rest of the red-haired stepchildren threads) is where posts go to die... When you log on and see 1000 plus people in "Classical Music" and 6 people in "Non Classical" it really doesn't take one of our board's resident "geniuses" to figure out where you should post for maximum readership...

One last piece of genuinely well-intentioned advice... unless one of the moderators deputizes you and give you a bright shiny mod badge it's not really your place to tell anyone what and where they can post...

It might be time to get off your high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I think you may be overreacting old bean. Larkenfield doesn't seem to be targeting you specifically in his post. As it happens I also don't think talk of the electric guitar should be dominating in a thread about the classical guitar in the classical section. 

Admittedly I am not a great fan of the electric guitar, though I am a long-time Deep Purple fan (and Iron Maiden too...kill me now) and I like Hendrix as much as the next man, but I tire of talk about the 'axe' and the bizarre hold it has over the imaginations of both baby boomers and young teenagers. I don't really care about 'tapping' or Eddie van Halen or how magical Steve Vai's sound is. 

The only electric guitar sound that really grabs me is Wes Montgomery, that's guitar playing. I save my jazz posts for the other section and I've had plenty of replies.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Love Vivaldi's Guitar Concerto and Rodrigo's Concerto.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I think you may be overreacting old bean. Larkenfield doesn't seem to be targeting you specifically in his post.


There were some behind the scenes back-stage things that went on that no one is aware of and that still frosts me royally... but that is neither here nor there... Out of a profound respect I will cool my jets as requested...and have that "cup of tea" as recommended... Thanks for the advice Eugeneonagain...


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

As for electric guitar and classical music, I don't believe there are any instruments in normal classical music that are electric. Frankly, I think that the idea of any instrument used in classical music being electric is antithetical to the whole concept of classical music. I speak of classical in the narrow sense of the classical era.

So, if electric guitar was around in Mozart's day and he wanted to use it to get chicks, then I think he would have been a rocker not a classical composer. Not all composers wanted to get chicks (a term more for the bar pickup scene, not one who is genuinely interested in a long-term monogamous relationship). Beethoven would not be into the get chicks scene, he rather desired a long-term relationship on the highest plane (and would have been rudely awakened by the realities of marriage, i.e., its imperfections). If electric guitar were present in his day, I could see Beethoven smashing the thing to pieces in a rage rather than trying to compose for it.

I think that people posting examples of electric guitar on this thread, while somewhat off topic, is relevant in that is shows how different of an instrument it is. When an electric guitar is used to play a classical piece, to me it is no longer a classical piece, but a rock tune or jam session. So the examples show how classical music and electric guitar appear to be diametrically opposed.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Referencing the use of electronic instruments in classical music: if we speak of classical music _sensu lato_ and not confine the definition to Haydn, Mozart, etc., we can show as just one example the theremin, from Wikipedia--

"Concert composers who have written for theremin include Bohuslav Martinů, Percy Grainger, Christian Wolff, Joseph Schillinger, Moritz Eggert, Iraida Yusupova, Jorge Antunes, Vladimir Komarov, Anis Fuleihan, and Fazıl Say. Another large-scale theremin concerto is Kalevi Aho's Concerto for Theremin and Chamber Orchestra "Eight Seasons" (2011), written for Carolina Eyck.

Maverick composer Percy Grainger chose to use ensembles of four or six theremins (in preference to a string quartet) for his two earliest experimental Free Music compositions (1935-37) because of the instrument's complete 'gliding' freedom of pitch."

I do not want to beat this dead horse too much more, but two more examples of a possible path to a "classical" sounding electric guitar would be Clapton/Derek and the Dominos' cover of Hendrix's _Little Wing_ and Fleetwood Mac/Peter Green's _The Green Manalishi_. I am speaking of the live version of Green Manalishi recorded in Boston. Others may have other inspirations. I also believe that my contributions to this thread are solidly rooted in an expansive discussion of "classical guitar".


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Beethoven would not be into the get chicks scene, he rather desired a long-term relationship on the highest plane.


And so he went about 'falling in love' with one woman after another, and 99% of them unattainable. We all know what 'falling in love' means; especially when it happens serial fashion. It's the polite way of saying you want a bit of nooky.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> Referencing the use of electronic instruments in classical music: if we speak of classical music _sensu lato_ and not confine the definition to Haydn, Mozart, etc., we can show as just one example the theremin, from Wikipedia--...


And of course, Hindemith's Trios for 3 Trautoniums... which is not exactly in the major repertoire. The theremin though, it has largely been used as a sound effects instrument or ethereal instrument in film soundtracks. Not to knock it because it has a great sound with some relation to the human voice, but the conservatoire students are not queueing up to learn it.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> As for electric guitar and classical music, I don't believe there are any instruments in normal classical music that are electric. Frankly, I think that the idea of any instrument used in classical music being electric is antithetical to the whole concept of classical music. I speak of classical in the narrow sense of the classical era.
> 
> So, if electric guitar was around in Mozart's day and he wanted to use it to get chicks, then I think he would have been a rocker not a classical composer. Not all composers wanted to get chicks (a term more for the bar pickup scene, not one who is genuinely interested in a long-term monogamous relationship). Beethoven would not be into the get chicks scene, he rather desired a long-term relationship on the highest plane (and would have been rudely awakened by the realities of marriage, i.e., its imperfections). If electric guitar were present in his day, I could see Beethoven smashing the thing to pieces in a rage rather than trying to compose for it.
> 
> I think that people posting examples of electric guitar on this thread, while somewhat off topic, is relevant in that is shows how different of an instrument it is. When an electric guitar is used to play a classical piece, to me it is no longer a classical piece, but a rock tune or jam session. So the examples show how classical music and electric guitar appear to be diametrically opposed.


Fritz, this is my 100th post (which may or may not be my final post... time and a cup of tea will tell) and I find you to be quite a likeable chap... Well-written and thoughtful posts...

However... and this is a "However" which should be in all caps like this "HOWEVER"... One of two things is happening... either you're taking my uniquely cheerful high-spirited nonsense way too seriously (which virtually no one else on the boards does) or you're having a bit of fun with me by tricking me into thinking that you're too dense to pick up on the gag...

Since you need a fair amount of intelligence to be able to write well-written insightful analysis and thoughtful prose... I have to give you the benefit of the doubt and congratulate you on being able to make me look a wee bit foolish by tricking me into thinking that you're too dense to pick up on the gag... My compliments on being able to pull a fast one on me... I think... I'm not entirely sure...

Maybe one of our resident "geniuses" can clarify this issue...


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> ... if we speak of classical music _sensu lato_ "
> .


Hey! Why didn't anybody tell me that we were supposed to be speaking of classical music _sensu lato_?

That must explain why I keep receiving so many PMs which refer to me as that "stupid Canadian guy"...

If I had only known (thank you so very much for NOTHING!) that we were supposed to be speaking of classical music _sensu lato_ I would have tailored my posts and their content to our audience in an effort to "fit in with the cool kids"...(I'm lying)...

Thanks a lot, everyone (but mostly our forum's resident "geniuses", thank you so very freaking much...FOR NOTHING!


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> And so he went about 'falling in love' with one woman after another, and 99% of them unattainable. We all know what 'falling in love' means; especially when it happens serial fashion. It's the polite way of saying you want a bit of nooky.


Originally Posted by Fritz Kobus 
"Beethoven would not be into the get chicks scene, he rather desired a long-term relationship on the highest plane."

I once did it figuratively "on the highest plane" when I joined the "mile high club" on a trip from Vancouver to Nashville with my girlfriend but that's a story for a different thread... See? I can learn...


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

Nudge, the TC members of the Espers Guild are entirely comfortable with your "uniquely cheerful" posts. But Espers are quite thin on the ground here, and I think there thus may be "failure to communicate" at times. I hope this helps .


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> And so he went about 'falling in love' with one woman after another, and 99% of them unattainable. We all know what 'falling in love' means; especially when it happens serial fashion. It's the polite way of saying you want a bit of nooky.


Not at all. It means he was still seeking marriage. You demean the master.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> One of two things is happening... either you're taking my uniquely cheerful high-spirited nonsense way too seriously (which virtually no one else on the boards does) or you're having a bit of fun with me by tricking me into thinking that you're too dense to pick up on the gag...


Based on your closing statements to your post (posted below) I have to conclude you are either FOS or joking. I gave the benefit of the doubt to that you were joking. At any rate, I just had a few opinions to express.



Nudge and a Wink said:


> FACT: Whether you're talking 1650, 1750, 1850, 1950 and even up to this very day... it all comes down to chicks and nobody and I do mean nobody gets more chicks than the guy that wields the axe... "Art" will always take a distant second place to getting the girl...
> 
> FACT: If you think that Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, etc. etc. etc. would have chosen the harpsichord, pianoforte, piano, violin, flute, trumpet or any other "classical" instrument instead of this "classic" vintage Gibson "Les Paul" with sunburst finish you my "friends" are completely delusional... (the quotation marks around the word friends is a sly dig in case I was being too subtle and it flew right over your head...)
> 
> Now that I've settled this issue to everyone's satisfaction with FACTS which are virtually inarguable let's put this one to bed shall we?


Referenced Post


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Not at all. It means he was still seeking marriage. You demean the master.


'Seeking marriage' is also a quaint euphemism for the same thing. This does not demean LvB; he more than anyone would acknowledge that in matters such as these he was a man like any other.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

eugeneonagain said:


> 'Seeking marriage' is also a quaint euphemism for the same thing. This does not demean LvB; he more than anyone would acknowledge that in matters such as these he was a man like any other.


Now you demean marriage.


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I have to conclude you are either FOS or joking.
> 
> Honestly Fritz, to me, they're virtually interchangeable... I never feel that I need to be *either* FOS *or* joking... I feel that I can be both!
> 
> Best wishes - keep on cranking out those great posts with abandon, my friend... and since you live "Next to Detroit, Michigan" you should give some thought to crossing over the Ambassador Bridge some day to Windsor and visiting my fellow Canadians in Ontario - but call first, eh?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Strange Magic said:


> Again, we must be at some pains to distinguish between the physical instrument of the classical guitar, and the body of works--from Bach to Whomever--that are customarily associated in the mind with the term "classical guitar". I mentioned before that I felt the guitar, as an instrument--whether classical, flamenco, electric, and all the other kinds--was best suited to tell wild musical tales. So my response to the OP was to say that, Yes, I too find "classical guitar" as repertoire not my cup of tea ("boring as hell" is harsh, too harsh). But pick up any guitar and begin to play "gypsy" music, Middle Eastern, African, Afro-Cuban, "folk" music, rock music, certainly flamenco, and the instrument quickly absorbs and assumes the energy and character of the music.


Yeah well, lots of instruments will borrow literature originally written for other instruments. But the guitar? The guitar follows other instruments into dark alleys, knocks them over the head and goes through their pockets for literature. Not that I object to this at all. I for one actually prefer Bach's solo violin music played on guitar, because to my personal taste the solo violin gets absolutely unbearably shrill and dry and scratchy after a while. But then, I am weird enough to prefer flute versions of lots of violin concertos too.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Nudge and a Wink said:


> Fritz Kobus said:
> 
> 
> > I have to conclude you are either FOS or joking.
> ...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Now you demean marriage.


Don't be ridiculous. I'm not demeaning marriage, I'm having a joke about how historically these terms have been used to avoid referring to normal desires. Indeed were often the only socially acceptable means of meeting that need. _That_ demeaned marriage.
Beethoven, being a progressive fellow and no slave to social conventions, likely found it a nuisance.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

If anyone has any problem with negative guitar comments, remember the opening premise of the thread, which was negative. This opens the door to any negative comments, and also "baits" responses from those who like and/or respect the guitar, and the musicianship it takes to play one well. 

The OP is basically a "license to criticize." We can play along, but shouldn't question it.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

I will play along...on a guitar

(If I could).


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I haven't seen any listeners prevented from posting on the negative. But it cuts both ways and it also opens up the discussion of the positive and constructive.

Who would anyone think is more familiar with the music and values it more, has _heard_ more?-those who like it or those who dislike it? Those who categorically find the classical guitar boring, though a number of fine counter examples have been provided by those who don't find it boring, will probably never find anything other than boring, because they can't find even one exception to the rule of interest or praise of any classical guitar music in its entire literature or its numerous musicians... Some can't seem to find anything, despite the fact that there are many famous classical guitarists working around the world who are highly appreciated, successful, and great artists. So those who classify an instrument or a certain type of music across the board as boring or a waste of time, or that an electric or rock guitar is the answer, aren't likely to offer anything illuminating or of great interest or insight about the music and those playing it.

Sometimes an appreciation of a certain genre of music comes with time and maturity, and I would suggest that's true with the appreciation of the classical guitar, because how many are willing to put in the time to appreciate its depth and subtleties? It takes a certain courage and maturity to play the classical guitar, which is another reason why some appreciate it-music played by exceptionally gifted and mature artists-and there's a certain sense of maturity in the music itself like a matador in a ring, even if the music isn't directly related to Spain. What's the opposite of this? No one learns or appreciates anything. It's too boring.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Boring? never..............


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Why would anyone do that?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Why would anyone do that?


To check out the Sustain?

Was a bit short lived thou


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