# questions about orchestration Hopefully some kind people can direct/assist/guide me.



## 61963

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## mikeh375

@unknown888 ...you might be taking on too much for now, judging by the tenor of your questions. I suggest you start from simple basics first and work your way into more detailed study over time because orchestration is a very complicated art and technique that requires more than detailed knowledge of instrument capabilities - which in itself is also a massive area of study.
There are good books on orchestration available but are you sure you are ready for them just yet? Do you read music? Are you hoping to write for sampled or real orchestra?
How is your theory regarding counterpoint, voice leading and harmony? Who are your influences and what do you want to achieve?
Just asking as I don't know you.


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## 61963

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## mbhaub

Which instruments are able to play intervals of 2 notes? *All of the string instruments. But you have to be very careful what the interval is. The mallets of course (xylophone, glockenspiel etc). Harp.*
Which instruments are able to do a chord or 3 notes at a time, and 4 and so on? *The strings to an extent, they have to break it. The mallets too, but be careful! Sticking can be an issue. Harp.*

At which tempos are they capable of doing this and at what tempos or length of duration? *Doing double stops with a moving part is hard. If the player has to change strings, forget it. It's a cool effect in Paganini violin concertos, but otherwise should be avoided. Long tones, ok. Even the mallets, having two voices moving rapidly can be difficult to play. One voice is best. Harp does it a lot in thirds, fifths, octaves. Lays easier on that instrument.*

Which instruments need a bigger break than others because of techniques such as breathing or technique? I guess it might be more difficult in some tempos with 32s or 16th notes, for example. *A lot of bad orchestrators and beginners write long passages that are high in the brass. This is extremely taxing for trumpets and trombones and should be avoided. They need a break! Some idiot composers write parts for crash cymbals that go on and on and it is very difficult - those things get heavy after a while. That's why playing Sousa marches is miserable. All instrumental players need breaks, and so does the ear of the listener. Great orchestrators know this and bring instruments in and out regularly.*

Which instruments who are not marked with red in the Sibelius program should I be aware of, especially that they have difficulty with some specific notes?* I don't use Sibelius, but I think you mean this: avoid notes that make the player sound incompetent. Like low B on the oboe. Or asking a bassoon to start on a high E. Or basses to play low C unless you know they have the extension.*

Is 8 tremolos difficult for strings, and for double bass, is it for a few bars or more that they are able to play if I notate it? What is the difference between half, whole, and quarter notes with tremolos? I guess it's more difficult or am I wrong at high speeds for a long time? *Tremelos usually aren't a problem for strings, as long as they don't go on too long. They are tiring.*

And what about brass woodwind or something else with tremolos? *Percussion can do tremolos. Not the winds.*

Do you have any suggestions for any books of orchestration?* The classic is the Rimsky-Korsakov. But there's a lot to learn from Widor's book and the Ebenezer Prout book is excellent in regards to writing for full orchestra. The Adam Carse book has the best explanation of string double stops ever and a very good explanation of writing for harp, which is a minefield of complexity. The Sam Adler book covers a lot of modern things. But the best way to learn it: take time, a couple of years, and take some lessons on every instrument or family so you get a feel for the challenges that no textbook can possibly explain. Be able to play at a grade 2 level on flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon, saxophone, trumpet, horn, trombone, tuba, violin, cello, percussion (snare, bass dr, cymbals, tambourine, etc). NEVER write a part for any instrument unless you know how it is played. Study the instruments and ask a lot of questions.*


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## mikeh375

@unknown888 the answer to your specific question about tremelos is yes depending on what you mean. Strings can easily tremelo and can sustain it for quite a while depending on the dynamic and type of part. I presume your tremelo is measured as in quavers ('8 tremelo"?), at bpm 60-80. If so, that is not a tremelo, just a simple quaver rhythm and sustainable for long stretches although you would do well for the sake of monotony for the player (and perhaps listener), to vary the parts a bit. If you don't mean quaver, measured tremelo but unmeasured tremelo instead, then depending on the dynamics and duration, the arm motion can get tiring as mbhaub says.

Whether loud or soft, If I where to write an extended string tremelo passage (measured or unmeasured) for many, many bars, I would consider alternating between the differing string instrument sections in order to incorporate rests. Assuming a 4 note chord, then to tremelo indefinitely at any dynamic, then one solution could be to divide the full strings section into 2 parts, each part containing two instrument sections, perhaps violin 1 and viola for one section and violin 2 and cellos for the other (ignore the basses for now). One then applies the technique of dovetailing (see link below). To maintain the density of scoring - i.e. 4 notes in tremelo at all times even though in effect only 2 sections are playing at any given point - one could either divide the sections into two again (ie 2 parts for each instrument group as in 2 parts for violin 1, two parts for violas etc.), or use tremelo double stops. When using stops (which might be the better option for louder dynamics), care and thought needs to be taken re the spacing of the notes to ensure that the stops used are playable and transferable between the instruments that dovetail. Dovetailing will ensure some respite for each section an as a result, increase durational playability.

As you didn't answer my questions about theory, I realise (after possibly needless lengthy typing) that all of this might be too much for you, even though the above are real world options to consider in order to overcome any long duration issues regarding string tremelos. You may find this link below useful as further down the page the site talks about dovetailing......(check out the rest of the site too).

Core Principles of Orchestration – OPEN MUSIC THEORY

So to answer more specifically about duration and in future, to stop us getting too far ahead for you technically, you need to tell us more about the music, its dynamics and length you propose, plus how you wish to score it. Maybe even post an excerpt. Even though you are a hobbyist, you've asked questions that imply realism in mock-ups might be important to you, hence a somewhat technical reply. However I have to ask, is realism absolutely a true consideration for you because to achieve good to excellent realism with samples or notation software playback requires the same amount of theoretical and technical knowledge and skill as one needs for live orchestras - the more you know the better your mock-up will be. If not, considerable leeway and far less angst will be your pals as you make your music because it'll come down mostly to how good you think your playback sounds and there is nothing wrong with that approach... 


@mbhaub,
I'd just like to add to your post for the sake of completeness and to dispel any assumptions a budding student might take from it. I'm pretty sure none of the below will be news to you.
String players can play different stops in succession and changing strings is not a problem when the part is well written for the fingers, even in an orchestral setting. It's therefore a resource that should not be permanently ruled out although it is advanced and depending upon the difficulties, might require pro players for successful performance. If by a 'moving part' you mean one note sustained whilst another changes, then that too can be an option where practical. Admittedly, there is often no need to write like this because in a full orchestral string section as you know, many part writing options exist. Simplicity where possible and ease of playing in the part is always preferable to unnecessary, seemingly pointless complication - a tenet that certainly applies to orchestral multiple stops which should be as practical as one can make them by utilising open strings.

One correction though, the red notes in Sibelius mean that whatever is red is out of the range of the instrument and therefore impossible to play. To the OP, they should be avoided and the part/scoring re-written, especially if realism is sought. (As a bassonist mbhaub, you might be amused to hear that I once witnessed the embarrasment of an arrogant, insufferable DAW composer who thought because his sample mock-up sounded good, he could just present it as was to a live band including the G below the bottom Bflat in the bassoon part and the F below the open G for the violins - this was in the days when samples where often exceeded their true range).

You'll know being a wind player that winds can fluttertongue, which is a form of tremelo used as an effect and that they can also tremelo across 2 notes that have intervals wider than trills - so called fingered tremelos. These can be classed as measured or unmeasured just as long as the interval is not too wide. Again this is too advanced for our OP so I mention it for the sake of a more complete overview of what is possible. Part of the problem here is that the term 'tremelo' has a few meanings which need clarification at all times.


I agree about the Korsakoff Principles of Orchestration and the Adler and would add Piston and Blatter's tomes. The Korsakoff is available free here...

The Project Gutenberg eBook of Principles of Orchestration, by Nikolay Rimsky-Korsakov

And the OP might find this useful....

https://andrewhugill.com/OrchestraManual/


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## 61963

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## mikeh375

Your welcome. Don't let anything put you off expressing yourself regardless of what you may or may not learn and certainly don't pay too much heed to daunting replies like mine above unless you are prepared to take this business beyond the hobby stage. That's one of the beauties of the digital age, we can all create what we want to hear regardless of ability and that is pretty cool imv...good luck


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## 61963

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## bagpipers

unknown888 said:


> I have some orchestration questions and I really hope one or more helpful good souls can guide or help me.
> 
> 
> 
> Which instruments are able to play intervals of 2 notes? Which instruments are able to do a chord or 3 notes at a time, and 4 and so on?
> 
> At which tempos are they capable of doing this and at what tempos or length of duration?
> 
> 
> 
> Which instruments need a bigger break than others because of techniques such as breathing or technique? I guess it might be more difficult in some tempos with 32s or 16th notes, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> Which instruments who are not marked with red in the Sibelius program should I be aware of, especially that they have difficulty with some specific notes?
> 
> Is 8 tremolos difficult for strings, and for double bass, is it for a few bars or more that they are able to play if I notate it? What is the difference between half, whole, and quarter notes with tremolos? I guess it's more difficult or am I wrong at high speeds for a long time? And what about brass woodwind or something else with tremolos?
> Do you have any suggestions for any books of orchestration?
> 
> I know for sure it's not learned by some questions since many master this after years of work, but I was curious if somebody could answer some of the questions.


Not many (or any) instruments in an orchestra can chord three notes without rolling.

I myself never use double stops at all and certainly no triple stops either.Because with so many instruments at your disposal why not use different instruments for .Use the first and second violins for double stops and throw in the viola for chords or even better use an English horn for your three note chord for better color.Use your orchestral color at your disposal instead of double stopping one instrument.

But technically strings can do double stops to an octave and all string can roll three or four note chords,only a harp can do three or four note chords without a roll,but harps are quiet and only good when the rest of the orchestra is not play or playing very quietly.And tempo should be no issue in this.

So onto winds
Good wind players can breath in between phrases,it does not take long to breath,they can grab a quick breath here and there.I would not keep a wind player playing 20 measures straight without a break but they know how to breath but they are trained to do so at there conservatories.Remember wind instruments are usually in twos or threes in the orchestra.They look at scores together and if is a place where all the winds are doubled it's good breathing spot.Most often wind players breath after a phrase.

Tremolo's should not be a problem I don't think ,remember you have many instruments so use them.

I don't know many newer orchestration books,the Berlioz used to be the standard but most consider that outdated now.
Honesty today with computers wikipedia can give you most information on instruments.


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## bagpipers

One thing could also point out is I don't know a lot of musicians and don't an orchestra to work with like a composer who is also theory professor somewhere often might be.

One thing I do is use more instruments and keep things simple and make safe conservative choices.And write your more complex passages for instruments you know can handle them(like strings)don't over stress an instrument like trumpet.

Use middle ranges on your instruments as not to go to a higher range that might be technically possible but not sound good.Score a contra bassoon as not to go to low on the bassoon.Score a English horn as not to go low on oboes or clarinets.Don't go to high on oboes or clarinets.Only go to high C on a flute or piccolo and of coarse the piccolo can go higher.

As far a very high registers only use violins or piccolos for very registers.

Many composers have an orchestra to work with but if not keep it safe


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## 61963

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## Enthalpy

unknown888 said:


> [...] Which instruments are able to play intervals of 2 notes? Which instruments are able to do a chord or 3 notes at a time, and 4 and so on?
> At which tempos are they capable of doing this and at what tempos or length of duration? [...]


About the *violin*: 2 notes simultaneously (= double stop) is standard technique -BUT- this is where the violin becomes difficult.

It depends on the intervals. A composer not playing the violin can determine that by himself with some sort of table of the positions. But then, sequences of double stops can become very hard or impossible, and this is hard to predict. It depends much on the tempo. I recommend to seek double-check from a violinist, he can tell from seeing the score and rarely needs to try on the instrument. Also, the level of the violinist make the difference here, so keep in mind what musicians you target.

Check the beginning of Sibelius 1 III :
by Viktoria Mullova
All the single notes are easily played by a decent amateur. Playing quickly or high is nothing special on a violin. Then come double stops, not even uneasy intervals, and already this tempo needs professional level.
Or Malinconia, by Eugène Ysaÿe
 by James Ehnes
slow tempo, but the awkward intervals make the piece very difficult for professionals.

Though, double stops sound differently on one violin than single notes spread on two violins, or two winds, or one harp, piano... They are also louder. And for one single violin they're a must. So composers must know how to write them, at least a bit.

Triple and quadruple chords are normally broken on the violin, giving very emphatic and generally aggressive music. If you don't seek that, write an other instrument. On the violin, the possible intervals and tempo are even more limited than for double stops.

The violin "can" play 3 notes at a time by squashing the middle string and deforming the bow hairs. It works only fortissimo and it squeaks. If you aren't sure, avoid it.

The viola, cello, bass have different constraints.

Some *woodwinds play "polyphonics"*, or so they claim, as non-standard techniques. The flute not as far as I know, the saxophone yes, the oboe yes, the clarinet too, the bassoon easily but rarely. But it's a misnomer! Not at all two simultaneous notes, rather one unstable note that is very quickly modulated. It resembles more a rough fluttertongue or a growl. Only some "notes" are possible, musicians must check the fingerings every time, I suspect all depends on the instrument's brand and model
 ghH7ZmYrNpM


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## 61963

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## pianozach

As a pianist I've seen the occasional piano music with impossible things notated. I've seen *piano* parts written to play below A0. While there are pianos that DO have these notes, they are rare and extraordinarily expensive. Usually I see this when the piano part has been transposed somewhere along the way.

Even the grand masters like *Chopin* and *Liszt* wrote piano works with parts that are very very difficult reaches for a normal sized hand, and most pianists will roll these when they occur. If you write piano parts that are too wide, expect them to be rolled by a typical pianist (and you won't be able to predict whether they'll do a pre-roll or roll starting on the beat).

I've also seen some piano parts in an orchestral setting that are virtuostic, and require rehearsal. Don't write virtuoso parts unless you know you'll have a virtuoso, or writing a concerto for that instrument. I can often tell a composer's main instrument simply by looking at the orchestral score. Don't be that guy. I love me some *Sondheim*, but you can tell he's a pianist. *Bernstein*, while a pianist, doesn't give it away in his scores.



Speaking of scores, *score study* is invaluable. Get the orchestral score for a work, and follow along as you listen to the piece, instrument by instrument, and group (of instruments) by group. See how it's done, and how it sounds. Do this with several scores from various composers and ages of music.


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## 61963

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## bagpipers

Another thing worth mentioning is when an orchestra is chosen a big question is how big should it be.

A good formula I think is a 2-1 or maybe a bit more that 2-1 like maybe 2.5-1 strings to winds.
So if you have 18 winds then 40 strings which would look like 22 violins, 8 viola's,6 cello's 4 basses or something like that,does not have to be exact.You could go 10 viola,8 cello and 6 basses too.But something along 2.5 to 1 on strings vs. winds ,by winds I mean woodwinds and the Brass,remember an oboe is as piercing as a trumpet.

And BTW that was a Beethoven-Schubert era orchestra obviously when you have 120 piece orchestra your looking at more strings with more winds


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## mikeh375

bagpipers said:


> Another thing worth mentioning is when an orchestra is chosen a big question is how big should it be.
> 
> A good formula I think is a 2-1 or maybe a bit more that 2-1 like maybe 2.5-1 strings to winds.
> So if you have 18 winds then 40 strings which would look like 22 violins, 8 viola's,6 cello's 4 basses or something like that,does not have to be exact.You could go 10 viola,8 cello and 6 basses too.But something along 2.5 to 1 on strings vs. winds ,by winds I mean woodwinds and the Brass,*remember an oboe is as piercing as a trumpet.*
> 
> And BTW that was a Beethoven-Schubert era orchestra obviously when you have 120 piece orchestra your looking at more strings with more winds


At face value, the bolded above is incorrect. Individually, nothing trumps a trumpet in the orchestra (no pun intended) for piercing, penetrative power. It's true that the oboe can be prominent in some situations, perhaps that's what you meant to say.
EDIT...I forgot the Piccolo which at extremes in dynamics and register can sing above everyone mainly because of its high pitch and placement.


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## bagpipers

mikeh375 said:


> At face value, the bolded above is incorrect. Individually, nothing trumps a trumpet in the orchestra (no pun intended) for piercing, penetrative power. It's true that the oboe can be prominent in some situations, perhaps that's what you meant to say.


Yes,some winds are more powerful than others and the trumpet is likely on top,that's why you have 2 trumpets,4 F horns and three trombones.But woodwinds are still substantial above strings.


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## mikeh375

^^^ it's all about the numbers, dynamics, range and scoring. Not that this is precise science, but generally, on a one to one ( that is on a solo wind compared to full size individual string section basis), the strings win out the louder the dynamic for one needs to then double the wind to balance better. Obviously much changes depending on section sizes.


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## 61963

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## pianozach

LOL. Big orchestras. Many works for monstrously large orchestras. Is it necessary, or is it a gimmick?

Learn to write for small ensembles: Trios, quartets, octets, string orchestras, chamber groups. Far easier to find musicians to play if you don't need as many. If you write only for a symphony orchestra, then you have to find a symphony orchestra that is willing to play your piece.

With a smaller group you can simply hire four or five or eight musicians and create the group needed.


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## 61963

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## 61963

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## Art Rock

Since the thread starter has deleted all their posts in this thread, it has become rather a shambles. Closing it.


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