# Bach St John Passion



## marlow

I was recently bowled over by performance of this masterpiece once again. The St John Passion (Johannes-Passion in German), BWV 245, is a setting of the Passion story as related in St John’s Gospel. It was first performed on Good Friday 7 April 1724 in Leipzig’s Nikolaikirche. Bach revised the work in 1725 and 1732 but it is heard most frequently today in the final version he completed in 1749 (though never performed during his lifetime).
Quite a few versions on my shelf.
Just wondered what versions of the work the readers of TC would recommend.


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## 89Koechel

Nice post, marlow ... and hope you receive some recommendations, for the best version. Personally, I still have an old recording, with Fritz Wunderlich, on the ol' Seraphim label/LP - good enough for me! Good luck!


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## Ulfilas

I recently purchased the Minkowski recording after doing some comparing and contrasting. It's very well sung and a very dramatic and moving interpretation.

Otherwise I very much like Herreweghe's second recording, but that is of a slightly different version of the score.


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## wkasimer

It's true that there are a vast number of excellent recordings of the St. John Passion. But my personal favorite continues to be Kenneth Slowik's performance with the Smithsonian Chamber Players. It includes arias and choruses from the 1725 version as an appendix. It's OOP, but there are plenty of ridiculously cheap used copies on Amazon.









Another favorite, but one that may now be impossible to find, is an English language version conducted by David Willcocks, that originally appeared on the Argo label, but appeared on CD on Belart:









The recorded sound is rather overresonant, but the solo work is particularly fine.


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## ORigel

This:


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## SanAntone

wkasimer said:


> It's true that there are a vast number of excellent recordings of the St. John Passion. But my personal favorite continues to be Kenneth Slowik's performance with the Smithsonian Chamber Players. It includes arias and choruses from the 1725 version as an appendix. It's OOP, but there are plenty of ridiculously cheap used copies on Amazon.
> 
> View attachment 165783


Mine too. :tiphat:


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## Rogerx

I love the Schreier approach, never regretted buying it.


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## marlow

I started off the St JohnPassion with Karl Richter's performance on LP many years ago. Worthy but seems very heavy footed today and the soloists are not the best. Haeflinger, however, is a superb evangelist.

Since the advent of CD









Bruggen's is a wonderfully thought out fresh performance


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## marlow

I started off the St JohnPassion with Karl Richter's performance on LP many years ago. Worthy but seems very heavy footed today and the soloists are not the best. Haeflinger, however, is a superb evangelist.

Since the advent of CD

View attachment 165885


Bruggen's is a wonderfully thought out fresh performance


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## marlow

I bought Suzuki in a charity shop for next to nothing. Simply superb performance just like the cantatas









Gardiner's first has better soloists than his second


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## Philidor

marlow said:


> I bought Suzuki in a charity shop for next to nothing. Simply superb performance just like the cantatas
> 
> Gardiner's first has better soloists than his second


I agree to both statements. Gardiner I and Suzuki I are among my favorites for this work.

Should I find some time this weekend, I will try to write a short overview on the four versions.


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## marlow

The other version which found its way onto my shelves by Rene Jacobs. Superb soloists and a superb evangelist in Gura. The drama is enthralling


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## Marc

marlow said:


> I was recently bowled over by performance of this masterpiece once again. The St John Passion (Johannes-Passion in German), BWV 245, is a setting of the Passion story as related in St John's Gospel. It was first performed on Good Friday 7 April 1724 in Leipzig's Nikolaikirche. Bach revised the work in 1725 and 1732 but it is heard most frequently today in the final version he completed in 1749 (though never performed during his lifetime).
> Quite a few versions on my shelf.
> Just wondered what versions of the work the readers of TC would recommend.


Maybe these 2 threads might be of interest for you. 

Favourite St John Passion

Bach Passions


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## hoodjem

Help me, please!

I really love almost all of the music by JS Bach: the concerti, the orchestral suites, solo cello and violin works, lute works, a lot of the cantatas, oratorios, masses, motets, solo keyboard works, sonatas for violin harpsichord, organ works, sinfonias.

But the St. Matthew and St. John passions have always seemed rather slow, plodding, and turgid. Maybe they are meant to be solemn, sad, ponderous sermons with unhappy endings.

Every time I start listening to one, it seems like a slow slog through melodic quicksand in a dark, depressing landscape.

Am I missing something? Did I stop listening too soon?
Is there a way I can find to learn to enjoy them?


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## wkasimer

hoodjem said:


> But the St. Matthew and St. John passions have always seemed rather slow, plodding, and turgid. Maybe they are meant to be solemn, sad, ponderous sermons with unhappy endings.
> 
> Every time I start listening to one, it seems like a slow slog through melodic quicksand in a dark, depressing landscape.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> Is there a way I can find to learn to enjoy them?


Which recordings have you heard?


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## hoodjem

Not sure exactly.
Jochum, Karajan, Klemperer, Gardiner, Schreier, Jacobs, Herreweghe, Suzuki.

Maybe I just to give them more time.


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## hammeredklavier

hoodjem said:


> Help me, please!


Do you, btw, need help with anything else? Mozart


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## Kreisler jr

The St. John ist actually to fast-paced and hectic for me 
Seriously, the St. Matthew is obviously huge and very broad. 
Despite more recent recordings being closer to 2.5 hours than to 4 (as was common in the 60s, before that they usually severely cut the piece, even I have been to slightly cut performances around 1990) there is not so much one can do about this breadth. It helps to have a dramatic and expressive evangelist (in both) like Equiluz (who passed away a few weeks ago at 93) or Schreier and to understand what is going on.

For St. Matthew I'd recommend Harnoncourt 1970 and ca. 2000), not really sure about the St. John, maybe Schreier (Philips 1988 or Newton).


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## wkasimer

Kreisler jr said:


> For St. Matthew I'd recommend Harnoncourt 1970 and ca. 2000), not really sure about the St. John, maybe Schreier (Philips 1988 or Newton).


I listened to the first Harnoncourt recording recently. This was a groundbreaking recording, and I remember how eager I was to get my hands on it after I earned my first paycheck as a teenager. But I have to confess that it really hasn't worn well - the boy sopranos really struggle with the solos, and the quality of countertenor singing has improved since 1970. It's a shame, because Equiluz and Ridderbusch are so good here.


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## Kreisler jr

I actually think the boy solos in the Harnoncourt/Willcocks St Matthew (I have never heard the St. John with Gillesberger) are surprisingly good, better than many solos in the cantatas. Esswood is an acquired taste but as long as people recommend Jacobs singing on Herreweghe's or elsewhere, I have no qualms whatsoever...


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## wkasimer

Kreisler jr said:


> I actually think the boy solos in the Harnoncourt/Willcocks St Matthew (I have never heard the St. John with Gillesberger) are surprisingly good, better than many solos in the cantatas.


My recollection is that one of the boy soloists sings pretty well, and the other doesn't.


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## Varick

hoodjem said:


> Help me, please!
> 
> I really love almost all of the music by JS Bach: the concerti, the orchestral suites, solo cello and violin works, lute works, a lot of the cantatas, oratorios, masses, motets, solo keyboard works, sonatas for violin harpsichord, organ works, sinfonias.
> 
> But the St. Matthew and St. John passions have always seemed rather slow, plodding, and turgid. Maybe they are meant to be solemn, sad, ponderous sermons with unhappy endings.
> 
> Every time I start listening to one, it seems like a slow slog through melodic quicksand in a dark, depressing landscape.
> 
> Am I missing something? Did I stop listening too soon?
> Is there a way I can find to learn to enjoy them?


It's "To each his own" when it comes to any individual piece of music. At first 4 or 5 listenings, I didn't care for Verdi's Requiem (I still try and reflect of what exactly what was wrong with me back then), now it is one of my favorite pieces of music ever written. Some times things "just click." Maybe it will never happen with you with these pieces. I think St Matthew's is head & shoulders above St. John's but St. John's is still a magnificent piece of music. I don't know how old you are, but with age comes changes in taste with everything. I hated asparagus until I was about 24 years old. Now I love it. Same with broccoli rabe, same with gin. I LOVE gin now. If only Rite of Spring would "click" for me. I've listened to that piece about 30 times: Still hate it. But I keep trying.

Whenever I know something that has survived time, loved by the majority, and is solidly entrenched in a particular canon that I don't enjoy, I always assume it's ME with the problem. That I'M the one "missing" something. Maybe it's humility (something of which I'm rarely accused), but I believe it's a healthy mentality. Keep trying. I hope you can find the joy that many of us have found and experienced with these great pieces of music.

V


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## Varick

My favorite is still Richter. I know the fad is HIP recordings now, but I've never warmed to the tinny, shallow, and often screechy sound of so many HIP recordings. I prefer pieces of music that were written for the glory of a "higher" power or theme should have depth, gravitas, grandeur in the performances.

To me it's like preferring great grandma's recipe of a dish over a modern master chef's interpretation. Often our great grandmothers didn't have the ingredients, cooking technology, and accessibility to ingredients that many great (or even common) chefs have now to make fantastic dishes. Many people have this (imo) antiquated notion that if it's not "original" or 100% "genuine," then it's [email protected] Sometimes that is true. But when it comes to some of the great conductors of the 20th century, I think they improved upon some of the great composer's works. I believe if some of those composers could have heard some of these renditions, they themselves would have been awed, and thought, "If only I had..."

Give me grandeur, give me gravitas, give me great large orchestras to honor the subjects of these pieces any day.

V


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## Simon23

Varick said:


> My favorite is still Richter. I know the fad is HIP recordings now, but I've never warmed to the tinny, shallow, and often screechy sound of so many HIP recordings. I prefer pieces of music that were written for the glory of a "higher" power or theme should have depth, gravitas, grandeur in the performances.
> 
> To me it's like preferring great grandma's recipe of a dish over a modern master chef's interpretation. Often our great grandmothers didn't have the ingredients, cooking technology, and accessibility to ingredients that many great (or even common) chefs have now to make fantastic dishes. Many people have this (imo) antiquated notion that if it's not "original" or 100% "genuine," then it's [email protected] Sometimes that is true. But when it comes to some of the great conductors of the 20th century, I think they improved upon some of the great composer's works. I believe if some of those composers could have heard some of these renditions, they themselves would have been awed, and thought, "If only I had..."
> 
> Give me grandeur, give me gravitas, give me great large orchestras to honor the subjects of these pieces any day.
> 
> V


Great post, thank you. I also don't listen to HIP recordings for almost this reasons. This is usually a flat, fake, unnatural sound.


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## Yabetz

My favorite recording is the Helmuth Rilling/Gächinger Kantorei/Bach Collegium Stuttgart from 1984, with Peter Schreier et al (I don't think anyone on recording ever sang the role of the Evangelist better than Schreier). I've yet to hear a HIP performance of this work or any large-scale Bach choral work that I really like.


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## Kreisler jr

You could try the one sung AND conducted by Schreier (late 1980s, I think, originally Philips, reissue) or the later Rilling (1990s, for the Hänssler Bach 2000). Both are with adult singers and modern instruments but influenced in tempi and some other aspects by HIP.


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## Rogerx

Kreisler jr said:


> You could try the one sung AND conducted by Schreier (late 1980s, I think, originally Philips, reissue) or the later Rilling (1990s, for the Hänssler Bach 2000). Both are with adult singers and modern instruments but influenced in tempi and some other aspects by HIP.


I love the Schreier on Philips, would be my dessert Island disc .


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## Yabetz

Kreisler jr said:


> You could try the one sung AND conducted by Schreier (late 1980s, I think, originally Philips, reissue) or the later Rilling (1990s, for the Hänssler Bach 2000). Both are with adult singers and modern instruments but influenced in tempi and some other aspects by HIP.


I've listened to the Schreier and while I love the guy, his version shows the HIP tendency for hyperspeed.


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