# Essential classical music for a new listener?



## Guyjin

Hi everyone.

I've actually been interested in classical music for a couple years now, but I never identified or remembered any of the pieces that I liked, nor do I know anything past a few key composers' names. Honestly, I'm not even sure if "pieces" is the proper term to refer to classical songs.

Anyway, I've decided I want to go deeper into the genre and actually obtain some classical music (sorry if it offends anyone but I'll be downloading it to start off, just to get a taste), but I have no idea what I should be looking for. I like the work I've heard from Mozart and Tchaikovsky, but aside from famous names, I don't know where to begin. I was hoping you guys could give me a hand and name some essential content (generally considered to be the textbook classics, if you will) to help me get underway.

I appreciate any help I may get. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Weltschmerz

I'll assume you want to forgo the typical classical music compilation CD's that have the predictable Eine Klein Nachtmusik, Swan Lake, Pachelbel's canon, etc etc etc. Probably the best place to start for a new listener would be the Beethoven symphonies. If you just want to buy a couple, it's really your pick - they are all great of course, even if 5 and 9 are the most popular. If you want to buy all of them, Herbert von Karajan's recordings with the Berlin Philharmonic are legendary among classical music enthusiasts. 

From personal taste, I would strongly reccomend the Leonard Bernstein recording of Mahler's 5th Symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic. The symphony itself may be a little 'out there' for beginning classical listeners, but I think listening to the differences between late classical/early romantic composers (Beethoven) and late romantics like Mahler would really give you an idea of how vast classical music actually is, even within one movement like the Romantic era. Besides, the Adagietto movement of that symphony is the most beautiful piece of music ever written. 

Few other reccomendations - buy a recording of Wagner orchestral excerpts (no vocal parts) from his operas - I have an awesome CD of the Cleveland Orchestra (has a photo of the Neuschwanstein castle on the front). Also, Bruckner's Symphony No. 4, the Beethoven piano concertos, the Mozart clarinet concerto (generally considered the greatest concerto of all time, and revolutionized the idea of the concerto), Schubert' "Unfinished" Sympony (no. 8) and his no. 5 in b-flat major also, Elgar's Enigma Variations, definitely Respighi's Pines of Rome, Brahms symphony no. 1 is very listener friendly. 

I could go on forever (oh woops I already did), but what I would most strongly reccomend is that when you are buying music, make sure to buy good recordings, even if they are slightly more expensive at times (but not always the case!). I am a huge fan of the Vienna Philharmonic, probably the greatest orchestra in the world in my opinion. Their history of conductors includes such names as Karajan (although he mostly worked with Berlin), Bruno Walther, and even the great Gustav Mahler. You are almost guaranteed to be safe with any Vienna Philharmonic or Berlin Philharmonic recording. If you want to go with an American orchestra (overrated in my opinion), go with either the New York Philharmonic (lots of Leonard Bernstein recordings) or the Chicago Symphony. 

Although the orchestra of the recording is slightly more important than the conductor in my opinion, look for recordings under the direction of names like Leonard Berstein, Sir George Solti, Ricardo Muti, or Herbert von Karajan just to name a few big ones. Leonard Berstein's recordings are considered somewhat controversial; he's generally taken to extreme interpretations of pieces and as a result not generally considered a 'mainstream' conductor. Nevertheless, I love his energy and have never come across a recording of his that I was the least disappointed with. Another little known orchestra that puts out some great and rather cheap recordings is the Georgian Festival Orchestra - they have a CD of Schubert's symphonies no. 8 (unfinished) and no. 5 which I mentioned before. In any case, I hope you take at least some of my reccomendations, but you it's really up to your taste and interest as you listen to more and more music. Best of luck!


----------



## Denis

*Classical songs*

Hello
You mention you like classical songs, I guess you like singing rather than orchestral & opera. As you've probably been told classical song is actually lieder, if from an opera it would be an aria & the speaking recititive ( if I've spelt it correctly). If you think your number one love is lieder then immediately Schubert comes to mind. This is just a thought I had and hope it helps.
Regards
Denis:


----------



## hobowu

Some excellent classical music for starters include:
Albert Ketelby - In a Persian Market
Tschaikovsky - Swan Lake (the ballet) - Nutcracker (ballet)
Liszt - Liebaustraum (No.3 is generally considered the best )
Mozart - Don Giovanni 
Chopin - Nocturne op.9 no.1 and no.2

there are many more, but these will keep you occupied for a long time! you won't get tired of them  Enjoy! ^^


----------



## Sonata

Personally, I really love Mendelssohn's works. He is a quality composer, though not listed in the upper echelon typically. I find his music makes me happy, without it sounding too "bouncy" if that makes sense. I'm no classical purist, just an avid music lover who has enjoyed exploring a lot of classical recently.

I bought this on a whim, not knowing a bit of Mendelssohn, and it has been a wonderful addition to my library.
http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Men...RJ40/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334064349&sr=8-1


----------



## science

Guyjin said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I've actually been interested in classical music for a couple years now, but I never identified or remembered any of the pieces that I liked, nor do I know anything past a few key composers' names. Honestly, I'm not even sure if "pieces" is the proper term to refer to classical songs.
> 
> Anyway, I've decided I want to go deeper into the genre and actually obtain some classical music (sorry if it offends anyone but I'll be downloading it to start off, just to get a taste), but I have no idea what I should be looking for. I like the work I've heard from Mozart and Tchaikovsky, but aside from famous names, I don't know where to begin. I was hoping you guys could give me a hand and name some essential content (generally considered to be the textbook classics, if you will) to help me get underway.
> 
> I appreciate any help I may get. Thanks in advance.


Here is a list we've created, which you can consider. It's not the Bible or anything, but it might help you.

1.	Bach: Mass in B minor, BWV 232 
2.	Wagner: Tristan und Isolde 
3.	Brahms: Clarinet Quintet in B minor, op. 115
4.	Beethoven: Symphony #5 in C minor, op. 67
5.	Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro, K 492
6.	Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring
7.	Bach: The Well-Tempered Clavier, BWV 846-89
8.	Mahler: Symphony #2 "Resurrection" 
9.	Schubert: Winterreise, D 911
10.	Dvořák: Symphony #9 in E minor "From the New World", op. 95
11.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #20 in D minor, K. 466
12.	Beethoven: Symphony #9 in D minor, "Choral", op. 125
13.	Tchaikovsky: Symphony #6 in B minor, "Pathétique", op. 74
14.	Bach: St. Matthew Passion, BWV 244
15.	Brahms: Symphony #4 in E minor, op. 98
16.	Brahms: Piano Concerto #2 in B-flat, op. 83
17.	Beethoven: String Quartet #14 in C sharp minor, op. 131
18.	Mozart: Symphony #41 in C, "Jupiter", K. 551 
19.	Schumann: Piano Concerto in A minor, op. 54
20.	Schubert: String Quintet in C, D. 956 
21.	Brahms: Ein deutsches Requiem ("A German Requiem"), op. 45 
22.	Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé
23.	Beethoven: Symphony #3 in E flat, "Eroica", op. 55
24.	Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde ("The Song of the Earth") 
25.	Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen ("The Ring of the Nibelung") 
26.	Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto in E minor, op. 64
27.	Debussy: La Mer ("The Sea") 
28.	Chopin: 24 Preludes, op. 28 
29.	Mozart: Requiem Mass in D minor, K. 626
30.	Bach: Die Kunst der Fuge ("The Art of the Fugue"), BWV 1080
31.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata # 29 in B flat, "Hammerklavier", op. 106
32.	Bruckner: Symphony #9 in D minor
33.	Haydn: Symphony #104 in D, "London"
34.	Handel: Messiah, HWV 56
35.	Strauss, R: Vier letzte Lieder ("Four Last Songs") 
36.	Bach: Goldberg Variations, BWV 988
37.	Brahms: Piano Quintet in F minor, op. 34 
38.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #32 in C minor, op. 111
39.	Schumann: Fantasie in C, op. 17 
40.	Scarlatti, D: Essercizi Sonatas (K.1-30)
41.	Shostakovich: Symphony #5 in D minor, op. 47 
42.	Schubert Piano Sonata #21 D 960
43.	Tchaikovsky: Violin concerto in D, op. 35 
44.	Faure: Requiem in D minor, op. 48 
45.	Mozart: Don Giovanni, K. 527
46.	Bach: Concerto for 2 Violins in D minor, BWV 1043
47.	Verdi: Otello
48.	Britten: War Requiem, op. 66 
49.	Bartók: Violin Concerto #2
50.	Mozart: Symphony #40 in G minor, K. 550 
51.	Vivaldi: Le quattro stagioni (The Four Seasons) 
52.	Schubert: Symphony #9 in C, "Great", D. 944 
53.	Prokofiev: Romeo and Juliet 
54.	Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique, op. 14 
55.	Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto #2 in C minor, op. 18 
56.	Schubert: String Quartet #14 in D minor, "Death & the Maiden", D. 810 
57.	Schumann: Dichterliebe 
58.	Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition
59.	Shostakovich: String Quartet #8 in C minor, op. 110 
60.	Haydn: String Quartets op. 76, "Erdödy"
61.	Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade, op. 35 
62.	Debussy: Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune ("Prelude to the afternoon of a faun") 
63.	Brahms: Symphony #1 in C minor, op. 68 
64.	Bach: Brandenburg Concertos, BWV 1046-1051 
65.	Gorecki: Symphony #3, "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs", op. 36
66.	Beethoven: Symphony #6 in F "Pastoral", op. 68 
67.	Ravel: Scheherazade 
68.	Mahler: Symphony #9
69.	Elgar: Cello Concerto in E minor, op. 85 
70.	Mozart: String Quintet in G minor K 516
71.	Borodin: String Quartet #2 
72.	Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #2 in G minor, op. 16 
73.	Handel: Giulio Cesare 
74.	Chopin: Nocturnes 
75.	Schubert: Symphony #8 in B minor, "Unfinished", D. 759 
76.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #14 in C sharp minor, "Moonlight", op. 27/2
77.	Saint-Saens: Symphony #3 in C minor, "Organ", op. 78
78.	Liszt: Piano Sonata in B minor
79.	Beethoven: Piano Concerto #5 "Emperor" in E flat, op. 73 
80.	Bach: Cantata 82 "Ich habe genug" 
81.	Chopin: Ballades 
82.	Brahms: Piano Trio #1 in B, op. 8 (revised) 
83.	Verdi: La Traviata
84.	Mendelssohn: Symphony #4 in A, "Italian", op. 90 
85.	Berg: Violin Concerto
86.	Tallis: Spem in Alium 
87.	Mozart: Clarinet Concerto in A, K. 622 
88.	Sibelius: Symphony #2 in D, op. 43 
89.	Ravel: String Quartet in F
90.	Messiaen: Quatuor pour la fin du temps ("Quartet for the End of Time")
91.	Beethoven: Piano Concerto #4 in G, op. 58 
92.	Schubert: Impromptus, opp. 90 and 142 
93.	Grieg: Piano Concerto in A minor, op. 16
94.	Bach: Violin Concerto #1 in A minor, BWV 1041
95.	Mahler: Kindertotenlieder 
96.	Chopin: Etudes
97.	Bruch: Violin Concerto #1
98.	Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra
99.	Debussy: Preludes 
100.	Allegri: Miserere
101.	Dvořák: Cello Concerto in B minor, op. 104
102.	Stravinsky: The Firebird
103.	Bruckner: Symphony #8 in C minor
104.	Monteverdi: Vespers of 1610
105.	Strauss, R: Eine Alpensinfonie
106.	Brahms: Violin Concerto in D, op. 77
107.	Vaughan Williams: Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
108.	Brahms: Piano Concerto #1 in D minor, op. 15
109.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #23 in A, K 488
110.	Bach: St. John Passion, BWV 245
111.	Haydn: The Creation
112.	Mahler: Symphony #4
113.	Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto #1 in B-flat minor, op. 23
114.	Schumann: Piano Quintet in E-flat, op 44
115.	Puccini: La Bohème
116.	Beethoven: Violin Concerto in D, op. 61
117.	Bach: Cello Suites, BWV 1007-1012
118.	Prokofiev: Symphony #5 in B-flat, op. 100
119.	Ravel: Piano Concerto in G
120.	Puccini: Turandot
121.	Ligeti: Etudes, Books. 1-3
122.	Schubert: Piano Quintet "The Trout" in A, D. 667 
123.	Mozart: Great Mass in C minor, K. 427 
124.	Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto #3 in D minor, op. 30 
125.	Respighi: Pini di Roma (Pines of Rome)
126.	Debussy: String quartet
127.	Bizet: Carmen
128.	Bach: Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor, BWV 582
129.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #21 in C, K. 467 
130.	Palestrina: Missa Papae Marcelli
131.	Dvořák: String Quartet #12 "American" in F, op. 96 
132.	Brahms: String Quartets op. 51
133.	Mendelssohn: String Quartet #6 in F minor, op. 80
134.	Alwyn: Harp Concerto "Lyra Angelica"
135.	Schoenberg: Moses und Aron
136.	Verdi: Requiem
137.	Beethoven: Grosse Fuge, op. 133 
138.	Debussy: Nocturnes L91
139.	Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
140.	Beethoven: Symphony #7 in A, op 92
141.	Schubert: "Wanderer" Fantasy in C, op. 15, D. 760 
142.	Elgar: Enigma Variations
143.	Bach: Clavier-Übung III
144.	Shostakovich: Symphony #10 in E minor, op. 93
145.	Ives: Piano Sonata #2 "Concord"
146.	Bach: Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin, BWV 1001-1006 
147.	Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #3 in C, op. 26 
148.	Barber: Knoxville: Summer of 1915
149.	Wagner: Parsifal
150.	Sibelius: Violin Concerto in D, op. 47 
151.	Mendelssohn: Octet in E-flat, op. 29 
152.	Holst: The Planets
153.	Bruckner: Symphony #7 in E
154.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #23 "Appassionata" in F minor, op. 57 
155.	Liszt: Les Preludes
156.	Vivaldi: Stabat Mater
157.	Suk: Asrael Symphony in C, op. 27 
158.	Rachmaninoff: Preludes
159.	Mozart: Sinfonia Concertante in E-flat, K. 364 
160.	Bartók: The Miraculous Mandarin
161.	Janáček: String Quartet #2 "Intimate Letters"
162.	Haydn: Trumpet Concerto in E-flat 
163.	Handel: Water Music
164.	Weber: Two Clarinet Concerti
165.	Liszt: Piano Concerto #2 in A, S 125 
166.	Strauss, R: Der Rosenkavalier
167.	Brahms: Symphony #3 in F, op. 90 
168.	Faure: Piano Quartet #1 in C, op. 15
169.	Schubert: Die Schöne Müllerin, op. 25, D. 795 
170.	Mozart: Clarinet Quintet in A, K. 581 
171.	Schoenberg: Pierrot Lunaire
172.	Shostakovich: 24 Preludes and Fugues
173.	Szymanowski: Stabat Mater
174.	Mendelssohn: Symphony #3 "Scottish" in A, op. 56 
175.	Tchaikovsky: Symphony #4 in F minor, op. 36 
176.	Schumann: Davidsbündlertänze, op. 6 
177.	Grieg: String Quartet in G minor, op. 27 
178.	Ravel: Gaspard de la nuit
179.	Mahler: Symphony #6 "Tragic" in A minor 
180.	Lalo: Symphonie espagnole in D minor, op. 21 
181.	Debussy: Cello Sonata
182.	Nielsen: Symphony #5, op. 50 
183.	Takemitsu: November Steps
184.	Chopin: Mazurkas
185.	Stravinsky: Petrushka
186.	Barber: Violin Concerto, op. 14 
187.	Falla: Nights in the Gardens of Spain
188.	Pärt: Tabula Rasa
189.	Rachmaninoff: Trio Élégiaque #2 in D minor, op. 9 
190.	Bach: Toccatas and Fugues
191.	Prokofiev: War Sonatas (#6-8)
192.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #9 "Jeunehomme" in E-flat, K 271 
193.	Schumann: Symphony #4 in D minor, op. 120 
194.	Beethoven: Missa Solemnis in D, op. 123 
195.	Mahler: Rueckert Lieder
196.	Haydn: Missa in Angustiis, "Lord Nelson Mass" 
197.	Beethoven: Piano Trio #7 "Archduke" in B-flat, op. 97 
198.	Smetana: Má vlast (My fatherland)
199.	Verdi: Rigoletto
200.	Mozart: Symphony #38 "Prague" in D, K. 504
201.	Hindemith: Symphony Mathis der Maler
202.	Bach: Christmas Oratorio, BWV 248
203.	Schumann: Kreisleriana, op. 16
204.	Schubert: An die Musik, D 547
205.	Schoenberg: Verklarte Nacht, op. 4
206.	Bartók: Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, Sz. 106
207.	Janáček: String Quartet #1 "The Kreutzer Sonata"
208.	Mendelssohn: Piano Concerto #1 in G minor, op. 25
209.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #30 in E, op. 109
210.	Dvořák: Symphony #8 in G, op. 88
211.	Bach: Magnificat, BWV 243
212.	Rodrigo: Concierto de Aranjuez
213.	Gliere: Symphony #3 "Ilya Muromets" in B minor, op. 42
214.	Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue
215.	Telemann: Tafelmusik
216.	Scelsi: Uaxuctum
217.	Mozart: Concerto for Flute and Harp in C, K 299
218.	Brahms: Late Piano Pieces opp. 116-119
219.	Schumann: Kinderszenen, op. 15
220.	Mahler: Symphony #1 "Titan" in D
221.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #21 "Waldstein" in C, op. 53
222.	Josquin: Missa Pange lingua
223.	Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
224.	Mozart: String Quartet #19 in C, "Dissonance", K 465
225.	Sibelius: Symphony #7 in C, op. 105
226.	Varèse: Deserts
227.	Webern: String Quartet
228.	Bach: A Musical Offering, BWV 1079
229.	Handel: Concerti Grossi, op. 6
230.	Schumann: Carnaval, op. 9
231.	Schubert: Piano Sonata #20 in A, D959
232.	Strauss, R: Tod und Verklärung (Death and Transfiguration), op. 24
233.	Rebel: Les élémens
234.	Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances, op. 45
235.	Haydn: The Seven Last Words of Christ
236.	Stravinsky: Symphony of Psalms
237.	Britten: Peter Grimes
238.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #31 in A-flat, op. 110
239.	Strauss, R: Ein Heldenleben (A Hero's Life), op. 40
240.	Franck: Variations Symphoniques
241.	Reich: Music for 18 Musicians
242.	Wagner: Siegfried Idyll
243.	Beethoven: String Quartet #15 in A minor, op. 132
244.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #25 in C, K 503
245.	Mozart: Symphony #39 in E-flat, K 543
246.	Berlioz: Requiem, op. 5
247.	Tchaikovsky: Symphony #5 in E minor, op. 64
248.	Mahler: Symphony #5 in C-sharp minor
249.	Bach: Harpsichord Concerto, BWV 1056
250.	Brahms: Piano Quartet #1
251.	Beethoven: Diabelli Variations, op. 120 
252.	Dvořák: Symphony #7 in D minor, op. 70
253.	Mozart: The Magic Flute, K 620
254.	Elgar: Piano Quintet in A minor, op. 84
255.	Bach: Suites for Solo Lute, BWV 995-1000, 1006a
256.	Schubert: String Quartet #13 "Rosamunde" in A minor, D 804
257.	Albéniz: Iberia
258.	Bartók: String Quartet #4, Sz. 91
259.	Bruckner: Symphony #5 in B-flat
260.	Copland: Appalachian Spring
261.	Wagner: Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg
262.	Walton: Violin Concerto
263.	Bach: Concerto in C minor, BWV 1060
264.	Boccherini: String Quintet in E, op. 11, #5
265.	Bach: Keyboard Partitas BWV 825-830
266.	Monteverdi: Madrigals
267.	Mozart: Serenade #10 in B-flat, "Gran Partita", K 361
268.	Schubert: Der Erlkönig, D 328
269.	Vaughan Williams: The Lark Ascending
270.	Scriabin: Piano Sonata #5, op. 53
271.	Medtner: Skazki
272.	Bach: Cantata #140 "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme"
273.	Chopin: Piano Concerto #2 in F minor, op. 21
274.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #24 in C minor, K 491
275.	Mendelssohn: Songs Without Words
276.	Pergolesi: Stabat Mater
277.	Brahms: Nänie, op. 82
278.	Beethoven: Triple Concerto in C, op. 56
279.	Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake
280.	Franck: Violin Sonata in A
281.	Adam: Giselle
282.	Sibelius: Symphony #5 in E-flat, op. 82
283.	Haydn: Cello Concerto #1 in C, H.7b/1
284.	Shostakovich: Piano Quintet in G minor, op. 57
285.	Beethoven: Piano Sonata #28 in A, op. 101
286.	Ravel: Pavane pour une infante défunte
287.	Mahler: Symphony #3
288.	Mozart: String Quintet #3 in G, K. 515
289.	Verdi: Aïda
290.	Beethoven: Symphony #8 in F, op. 93
291.	Bartók: Piano Concerto #1, Sz. 83
292.	Bach: Orchestral Suites, BWV 1066-1071
293.	Faure: Cantique de Jean Racine, op. 11
294.	Puccini: Tosca
295.	Debussy: Images for Piano, L110 & L111
296.	Barber: Adagio for Strings, op. 11a
297.	Janáček: Sinfonietta 
298.	Tchaikovsky: Romeo and Juliet Fantasy-Overture
299.	Albéniz: Suite española, op. 47
300.	Penderecki: St. Luke Passion
301.	Vivaldi: Gloria
302.	Janáček: On an Overgrown Path
303.	Messiaen: Turangalila Symphonie
304.	Haydn: Symphony #101 "Clock"
305.	Schumann: Fantasiestücke Op. 12
306.	Josquin: Missa l'homme armé
307.	Mozart: Piano Concerto #27
308.	Glazunov: Symphony #5
309.	Bruckner: Te Deum
310.	Buxtehude: Membra Jesu Nostri
311.	Handel: Music for the Royal Fireworks
312.	Prokofiev: Violin Concerto #2
313.	Liszt: Années de pèlerinage
314.	Walton: Belshazzar's Feast
315.	Beethoven: Piano Concerto #3
316.	Machaut: Messe de Nostre Dame
317.	Saint-Saëns: Cello Concerto #1
318.	Berlioz: Les Nuits d'été
319.	Rameau: Les Indes Galantes
320.	Berg: Wozzeck
321.	Beethoven: String Quartet #16
322.	Gluck: Orfeo ed Euridice
323.	Tallis: Lamentations of Jeremiah
324.	Grieg: Peer Gynt Suites
325.	Gabrieli: Sacae Symphoniae
326.	Saint-Saëns: Piano Concerto #2
327.	Wagner: Lohengrin
328.	Shostakovich: Violin Concerto #1
329.	Ravel: Piano Trio
330.	Schubert: Piano Trio #2
331.	Mendelssohn: Piano Trio #1
332.	Chopin: Polonaises
333.	Villa-Lobos: Bachianas Brasilieras
334.	Biber: Rosary Sonatas
335.	Dvořák: Romantické kusy (Romantic Pieces)
336.	Dvořák: Piano Trio #4 "Dumky"
337.	Ligeti: Lux Aeterna
338.	Bach: Violin Concerto #2
339.	Schumann: Symphony #2
340.	Borodin: Symphony #2
341.	Ligeti: Kammerkonzert
342.	Schubert: Fantasia in F minor
343.	Donizetti: Lucia di Lammermoor
344.	Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle
345.	Brahms: Piano Quartet #3
346.	Tchaikovsky: The Nutcracker
347.	Rossini: Il Barbiere di Siviglia
348.	Wagner: Tannhauser
349.	Mozart: Ave Verum Corpus
350.	Berlioz: Harold en Italie
351.	Stravinsky: Concerto in E flat "Dumbarton Oaks"
352.	Mathieu: Piano Concerto No. 4
353.	Mozart: Divertimento in E-flat, K. 563
354.	Ravel: Piano Concerto for the Left Hand
355.	Mendelssohn: String Symphonies
356.	Debussy: Children's Corner Suite
357.	Byrd: Mass for 5 Voices
358.	Haydn: Piano Sonata #62, Hob. XVI/52
359.	Bruckner: Symphony No. 3
360.	Glass: Violin Concerto #1
361.	Handel: Four Coronation Anthems
362.	Alkan: Douze études dans tous les tons mineurs, op. 39
363.	Corelli: 12 Concerti Grossi, op. 6
364.	Pärt: Fratres
365.	Janáček: Mladi
366.	Brian: Symphony No. 1 "Gothic"
367.	Mahler: Symphony No. 8
368.	Beach: Piano Concerto
369.	Schütz: Weihnachts-Historie
370.	Poulenc: Gloria
371.	Glazunov: The Seasons
372.	Palestrina: Stabat Mater
373.	Rzewski: Variations on El pueblo unido jamas sera vencido!
374.	Berg: Lyric Suite
375.	Cherubini: Requiem in C minor
376.	Penderecki: Symphony No. 7 "7 Gates of Jerusalem"
377.	Dvořák: Serenade for Strings
378.	Sibelius: Finlandia
379.	Chausson: Poème de l'amour et de la mer
380.	Schnittke: Concerto for Piano and Strings
381.	Satie: Gymnopedies
382.	Crumb: Black Angels
383.	Bartók: Sonatina
384.	Rimsky-Korsakov: Capriccio Espagnol
385.	Brahms: Double Concerto
386.	Bach: English Suites
387.	Debussy: Suite Bergamasque
388.	Webern: Six Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6
389.	Piazzolla: Cuatro Estaciónes Porteñas (The Four Seasons)
390.	Tchaikovsky: Piano Trio
391.	Berwald: Violin Concerto
392.	Paganini: 24 Caprices
393.	Brahms: Cello Sonata #1
394.	Busoni: Piano Concerto
395.	Medtner: Piano Concerto No. 2
396.	Gubaidulina: Viola Concerto
397.	Grieg: Lyric Pieces
398.	Ravel: Miroirs
399. Puccini: Madama Butterfly
400.	Bach, C.P.E.: Cello Concerto, Wq. 171
401.	Mozart: Cosi fan tutte
402.	Bruch: Kol Nidre
403.	Brahms: Alto Rhapsody
404.	Vivaldi: L'Estro Armonico
405.	Ligeti: Requiem
406.	Sibelius: Symphony No. 1
407.	Handel: Dixit Dominus
408.	Mozart: Symphony #29
409.	Dowland: Lachrimae, or Seaven Teares
410.	Adams: Nixon in China
411.	Vaughan Williams: Symphony No. 5
412.	Hindemith: Symphonic Metamorphosis
413.	Ives: The Unanswered Question
414.	Beethoven: Violin Sonata No. 9 "Kreutzer"
415.	Bach: Harpsichord Concerto in D minor BWV 1052
416.	Strauss, R.: Salome
417.	Bartok: Piano Concerto No. 2
418.	Enescu: Romanian Rhapsody #1
419.	Adams: Harmonielehre
420.	Liszt: Christus
421.	Schumann, C: Piano Trio
422.	Strauss, J. II: On the Beautiful Blue Danube
423.	Duruflé: Requiem
424.	Stravinsky: Mass
425.	Tchaikovsky: Manfred Symphony
426.	Gesualdo: Madrigals
427.	Monteverdi: Selva Morale Spirituale
428.	Handel: Solomon
429.	Sibelius: Kullervo
430.	Schubert: Mass #6
431.	Hummel: Piano Concerto No. 3 in B minor
432.	Charpentier: Te Deum
433.	Victoria: Missa pro defunctis (Requiem)
434.	String Quartets Op.64 "Tost Quartets Set III"
435.	Brahms: Variations on a Theme by Haydn
436.	Purcell: King Arthur
437.	Bruckner: Symphony No. 6
438.	Ockeghem: Missa Prolationum
439.	Mozart: Symphony #35 "Haffner"
440.	Bach: French Suites
441.	Glass: Akhnaten
442.	Dvorak: Romance in F minor for Violin and Orchestra
443.	Couperin: Pieces de clavecin
444.	Elgar: The Dream of Gerontius
445.	Gounod: Faust
446.	Beethoven: String Quartets, Op. 59 "Razumovsky"
447.	Dvorak: Piano Quintet #2
448.	Beethoven: Symphony No. 4
449.	Monn: Cello Concerto in G minor
450.	Haydn: Symphony No. 88
451.	Takemitsu: From Me Flows What You Call Time
452.	Debussy: Jeux
453.	Mahler: Symphony No. 10
454.	Faure: Piano Quintet No. 2
455.	Bax: Tintagel
456.	Byrd: The Great Service
457.	Walton: Viola Concerto
458.	Pérotin: Viderunt Omnes
459.	Rachmaninoff: Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini
460.	Dvorak: Violin Concerto
461.	Chausson: Concerto for Violin, Piano, and String Quartet
462.	Honegger: Symphony #3 "Liturgique"
463.	Strauss: Metamorphosen
464.	Reich: The Desert Music
465.	Villa-Lobos: String Quartet No. 5
466.	Tavener: Song for Athene
467.	Albinoni: 12 Concerti a Cinque, Op. 9
468.	Nielsen: Symphony #4 "The Inextinguishable"
469.	Schumann: Piano Quartet
470.	Janacek: Glagolitic Mass
471.	Haydn: The Seasons
472.	Berio: Sinfonia
473.	Copland: Clarinet Concerto
474.	Bartok: Piano Concerto #3
475.	Milhaud: The Creation of the World
476.	Lutoslawski: Piano Sonata
477.	Chopin: Piano Sonata #3
478.	Pärt: Te Deum
479.	Schubert: Octet
480.	Debussy: Sonata for Flute, Viola and Harp
481.	Rachmaninoff: Symphony #2
482.	Ligeti: Clocks and Clouds
483.	Rott: Symphony in E major
484.	Chopin: Piano Sonata #2
485.	Ravel: L'Enfant et les sortileges
486.	Bellini: Norma
487.	Bizet: Symphony in C
488.	Beethoven: String Quartet #13
489.	Stravinsky: Pulcinella
490.	Sibelius: Symphony #4
491.	Brahms: Horn Trio
492.	Cage: In a Landscape
493.	Mozart: Piano Quartet No. 1 K. 478
494.	Delibes: Lakme
495.	Bach: Trio Sonatas, BWV 525-530
496.	Gershwin: Porgy and Bess
497.	Schubert: Schwanengesang
498.	Handel: Israel in Egypt
499.	Schoenberg: Pelleas und Melissande
500.	Strauss: Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche


----------



## thetrout

There is a double CD of Schubert's 5th/8th/9th by Mackerras and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment. It is all wonderful, my favourite versions of those respective symphonies, and retails for a steal. This would be a good place to start in my opinion.


----------



## neoshredder

Vivaldi at number 51? Wow. He doesn't get enough respect on this forum. And yeah the Four Seasons would be my essential pick for new listeners. After that, it is more evenly distributed. But great deals on Amazon MP3's are availabe. Check out the Rise of the Masters.


----------



## Trout

@science, The composer name is missing for #434.


----------



## Vaneyes

Guyjin said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I've actually been interested in classical music for a couple years now, but I never identified or remembered any of the pieces that I liked, nor do I know anything past a few key composers' names. Honestly, I'm not even sure if "pieces" is the proper term to refer to classical songs.
> 
> Anyway, I've decided I want to go deeper into the genre and actually obtain some classical music (sorry if it offends anyone but I'll be downloading it to start off, just to get a taste), but I have no idea what I should be looking for. I like the work I've heard from Mozart and Tchaikovsky, but aside from famous names, I don't know where to begin. I was hoping you guys could give me a hand and name some essential content (generally considered to be the textbook classics, if you will) to help me get underway.
> 
> I appreciate any help I may get. Thanks in advance.


Bach: Brandenburg Concerti Bach: Goldberg Variations 


Bartok - String Quartets (Complete)

Beethoven: Symphonies 3, 5, 9
Beethoven: String Quartets (Complete) 
Beethoven: Piano Sonatas (Complete)

 
Brahms: Symphonies (Complete)
Brahms: Piano Quartets
 
Bruckner: Symphonies 4 - 9
 
Chopin: Piano Cti. 1 & 2 
Chopin: Solo Piano

Debussy: Orchestral Works 
Debussy: String Quartet
Debussy: Solo Piano

Dvorak: Cello Concerto
Dvorak: Symphonies 5 - 9
Dvorak String Quartet Op. 96 "American"

Elgar: Cello Concerto 
Elgar Violin Concerto
Elgar: Enigma Variations 

Fauré: Requiem
Faure: Piano Quintets

Franck: Symphonie in D minor
Franck: Piano Quintet

Grieg: Piano Concerto
Grieg: Peer Gynt Suites 
Grieg: Lyric Pieces

Handel: Concerto Grossi, Op. 6 (Complete)
Handel: Suites for Keyboard
 
Haydn: Paris Symphonies
Haydn: String Quartets, Op. 76 (Complete)
Haydn: Late Piano Sonatas

Hindemith: Orchestral Works

Holst: The Planets 

Janacek: String Quartets 1 & 2

Janacek: Piano Music

Liszt: Piano Cti. 1 & 2
Liszt: Faust Symphony 
Liszt: Solo Piano

Mahler: Symphonies (Complete)


Mendelssohn: Violin Concerto
Mendelssohn: Symphonies 3 & 4


 
Mozart Violin Cti. 1 - 5
Mozart: Piano Concerti 19 - 27
Mozart: Symphonies 35 - 41 
Mozart: Figaro, Cosi, Don G, Flute (Highlights)
Mozart: Requiem

Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition

Nielsen: Symphonies 1 - 5

Orff: Carmina Burana 

Poulenc: Concerto for Two Pianos 
Poulenc: Solo Piano

Prokofiev: Violin Concertos 1 & 2
Prokofiev: Piano Concertos 1 & 3
Prokofiev: Syms 1 & 5

Rachmaninov: Piano Concerti 2 & 3
Rachmaninov: Symphony 2
Rachmaninov: Solo Piano

 
Ravel: Piano Concerti
Ravel: Orchestral Works
Ravel: String Quartet
Ravel: Solo Piano Music 

Resphigi: Roman Trilogy

Rimsky-Korsakov: Scheherazade 
 
Saint-Saens: Violin Concerto 3
Saint-Saens: Symphony 3

Satie: Piano Works 

Scarlatti D: Keyboard Sonatas 

Schoenberg: Violin Concerto
Schoenberg: Piano Concerto
Schoenberg: Variations for Orchestra, Transfigured Night
Schoenberg: Solo Piano

 
Schubert: Symphonies 4, "Unfinished", 9
Schubert: Piano Quintet "Trout"
Schubert: Late String Quartets
Schubert: Arpeggione Sonata 
Schubert: Late Piano Sonatas 

Schumann: Piano Concerto 
Schumann: Symphonies (Complete)
Schumann: Solo Piano 

Scriabin: Symphonies (Complete)
Scriabin: Solo Piano

Shostakovich: Symphonies 4 - 11
Shostakovich: String Quartets 3 & 8
Shostakovich: Solo Piano

Sibelius: Symphonies (Complete)

Strauss R: Tone Poems 


Stravinsky: Violin Concerto
Stravinsky: Firebird Suite (1947)
Stravinsky: Rite of Spring

Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto 1
Tchaikovsky: Symphonies (Complete)

Vivaldi: "Four Seasons"


----------



## sparsity

Shostakovich, the Leningrad Symphony. 

Just kidding. 

Start out with solo and chamber music, preferably Baroque. In my opinion, the best piece to start with is Glenn Gould's Well Tempered Clavier. Listen to that many many times, then move on.


----------



## afterpostjack

I think a complete set of Beethoven's symphonies is a good idea, conducted by Karajan. Especially his 7th. Not for its second movement, which I find quite bland (although it's the most popular), but for its other movements. VPO/Kleiber is probably the reference recording here. His 2 last piano concerti are also great. Tchaikovsky is another easily accessible composer with some great works, not Swan Lake and those other ballets, but his symphonies (all of them are recommended). Karajan works here as well. Schubert's 2 last symphonies, and a set with Bruckner's symphonies (all conducted by Karajan) should serve well. Bach's violin concerti are recommended. Shostakovich's symphonies conducted mostly by Haitink are quite accessible. Vaneyes gives a pretty good start.


----------



## Stargazer

I would personally check out the "Top _____" lists on these forums and check out the #1 things first and work your way down. I did that for a few things and it worked well for me!


----------



## neoshredder

Stargazer said:


> I would personally check out the "Top _____" lists on these forums and check out the #1 things first and work your way down. I did that for a few things and it worked well for me!


Did you get to Vivaldi yet? Do you think the ranking he gets is fair?


----------



## Stargazer

neoshredder said:


> Did you get to Vivaldi yet? Do you think the ranking he gets is fair?


I just checked them out and did notice he seemed a bit low, grab your pitchforks!! I'm already fairly familiar with a lot of his works though. Those lists obviously aren't an end all be all, but I think they're great for people who are just getting into classical or a specific genre to find out where they can start (I personally used the opera list since I previously didn't know very much about opera at all). And after all, nothing can be perfect for everyone, particularly when opinions come into play!


----------



## sparsity

I find it very surprising that people are recommending symphonic music to a beginning listener. Doesn't symphonic music have too much 'stuff' going on at once? Why not solo and then chamber pieces?


----------



## neoshredder

Great for the Romantics I'm sure. 90% were picked from that era out of the top picks. Oh well. I guess I'm a lonely anti-romantic.


----------



## Cnote11

Vivaldi honestly should be at 51. Having said that, he should also occupy spots 1-50.


----------



## neoshredder

Four Seasons should be number 1. Vivaldi might not have the top spot overall but for 4 concertos, no one is better unless you put together a greatest hits for other composers. Yes it is only my opinion but as a newbie, this is what got me into Classical music. I don't listen to it much anymore but nothing I've listened to has drawn such interest. Alright maybe Beethoven's and Bach's greatest hits were close. Since then I've been burned out of the Baroque style partially due to noticeable repetitive chord progressions.Not the case with the Four Seasons. They all seem fresh to me. Why couldn't there be more clever chord progressions back then like this?


----------



## Ellyll

neoshredder said:


> ... Since then I've been burned out of the Baroque style partially due to noticeable repetitive chord progressions.Not the case with the Four Seasons. They all seem fresh to me. Why couldn't there be more clever chord progressions back then like this? ...


Here's one you may like...


----------



## Lisztian

I'm not sure if any of you realise, but the OP was back in 2006.


----------



## neoshredder

Ellyll said:


> Here's one you may like...


:33-:42 chord progression is noticeable.


----------



## Moira

sparsity said:


> I find it very surprising that people are recommending symphonic music to a beginning listener. Doesn't symphonic music have too much 'stuff' going on at once? Why not solo and then chamber pieces?


Its all the 'stuff' going on at once which makes symphonic music appealing. I think of the fireworks concerts which always end with the 1812 and the fireworks. Pretty impressive.


----------



## aphyrodite

science, you're totally awesome for that list.


----------



## science

aphyrodite said:


> science, you're totally awesome for that list.


Thank you!

A lot of people have helped make that list.


----------



## Guest

Lisztian said:


> I'm not sure if any of you realise, but the OP was back in 2006.


:lol:
You, sir, win the prize! I didn't even notice that myself, and was about to make a posting! Well spotted.


----------



## kv466

Yeah, but it so eloquently named that the thread can be used by any new listener.


----------



## Guest

In that case, I always recommend www.classicalcdguide.com
It give some simple lists that guide novices to some of the most recognized classical music, and can serve as a springboard. It give suggestions for orchestral, chamber, solo piano, concertos, operas, and also gives recommendations by period, and for some better known composers. It is not the end all, be all list, but it serves as a not too daunting list for someone first starting out. And several of the recommended recordings are quite good.


----------



## SiegendesLicht

sparsity said:


> I find it very surprising that people are recommending symphonic music to a beginning listener. Doesn't symphonic music have too much 'stuff' going on at once? Why not solo and then chamber pieces?


This maybe a very newbie-like take on the question, but I think a lot of people who come to classical music from pop/rock/metal can appreciate the louder, flashier symphonic pieces better. I, for one, came to love CM when I learned that it can be not only quiet, slow and "relaxing" (I hate that word) but also grand, powerful and thrilling.


----------



## claudio

It's difficult not to agree with the great lists above. So - in addition to, and not in place of - I'd like to mention some 20th century composers:

Sir Harrison Birtwistle: Secret Theatre, Tragoedia, Silbury Air, Carmen Arcadiae Mechanicae Perpetuum, Earth Dances, Antiphonies, Night's Black Bird

Sir Peter Maxwell Davies: Eight Songs For A Mad King, Symphony No 1

Karlheinz Stockhausen: Aus Den Sieben Tagen, Helikopter Streichquartett, Kontakte

Edgar Varèse: Arcana, Intégrales, Déserts, Amériques, Poeme Electronique

George Antheil: Ballet Mecanique, Death of Machines

and Britten of course, but he's already on the list.

And then Russolo - very little remains of his music, but "L'Arte dei Rumori" ("The Art of Noises") is probably more influential on modern music than it seems... Disclaimer: you'll end up listening to Einstuerzende Neubauten


----------



## Logos

If I were starting a collection from scratch, I would proceed along a frame more or less resembling this:

Palestrina – Masses and Motets
Handel – Messiah, Concerti Grossi
Bach – Organ works, Brandenburg Concerti, Goldberg Var., Mass in B Minor, Matthew Passion
Haydn – Late Symphonies, Creation, Nelson Mass, String Quartets, Piano Sonatas
Mozart – Late Symphonies, Requiem, Piano Concerti, String Quartets, Don Giovanni, Magic Flute, Figaro
Beethoven – Symphonies, Piano Sonatas and Concerti, String Quartets, Fidelio, Missa Solemnis
Schubert – Lieder, Late Symphonies
Wagner – Ring, Tristan und Isolde, Meistersinger, Parsifal
Verdi – Otello, Falstaff

That alone is a lifetime of musical enjoyment. Quality over quantity, by all means. Master the old giants, then proceed to the lesser lights, while going back to the giants continually.

It's too easy to become enthralled with the obscure or the out of the way, when one hasn't even plumbed the depths of the essential works. Critics talk about the excellencies of Aprha Behn when they haven't read Shakespeare, or of an obscure Zoroastrian text when they haven't read the King James Bible. The same absurd tendency can be found in music criticism--people who haven't listen to some of Mozart's greatest works touting a forgotten medieval Lithuanian housewife who wrote fugues for the slavic banjo. Keep clear of all that nonsense.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> That alone is a lifetime of musical enjoyment. Quality over quantity, by all means. Master the old giants, then proceed to the lesser lights, while going back to the giants continually.
> 
> It's too easy to become enthralled with obscure or the out of the way, when one hasn't even plumbed the depths of the essential works.


Or, alternatively, begin sampling the various recommendations and explore organically - reaching out along the veins of what you've found interesting, enjoyable, beautiful, delightful, invigorating, fun, cerebral, challenging.


----------



## Logos

MacLeod said:


> Or, alternatively, begin sampling the various recommendations and explore organically - reaching out along the veins of what you've found interesting, enjoyable, beautiful, delightful, invigorating, fun, cerebral, challenging.


Sure, but average man's taste today is so corrupted that, if he were simply to follow his own caprice, he would be more likely to wind up in a musical ghetto rather than a musical parnassus. That kind of thinking is the very reason for the neglect of great art in general. The grab-bag "organic sampling" approach (which is precisely the one the common man uses) is the equivalent to having no guidance at all, in which case one might as well leave everyone to wander aimlessly as they already do.

All this springs from the fallacy that critical thinking is a matter of simply finding what one "likes", rather than learning to like what is great.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> Sure, but average man's taste today is so corrupted that, if he were simply to follow his own caprice, he would be more likely to wind up in a musical ghetto rather than a musical parnassus. That kind of thinking is the very reason for the neglect of great music. The kind of grab-bag "organic sampling" (which is precisely the one the common man uses) is the equivalent to having no guidance at all, in which case one might as well leave everyone to wander aimlessly as they already do.


Ah, that life could be so well-organised, so free from corruption, we only suffer beauty, joy, rapture as our elders and betters make all our decisions for us and we never stray into error.

Hmmphh!


----------



## Logos

Fair enough. The 'elders' may sometimes lead one into error, but the common man, simply by following his own lights as if he were born perfect, is _guaranteed_ to stray into error. In any case, his supposedly pure inner sense of taste is simply a product of his (usually bad) education. None of us are really choosing for ourselves--it's simply a matter of following true elders or false, stupid ones.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> That alone is a lifetime of musical enjoyment. Quality over quantity, by all means. Master the old giants, then proceed to the lesser lights, while going back to the giants continually.


This begs an important question, how did the composers you call "the old giants" come to be called that, by you or by anyone else?



Logos said:


> It's too easy to become enthralled with the obscure or the out of the way, when one hasn't even plumbed the depths of the essential works.


Is it? Again, without establishing the legitimacy of "the essential works," we're criticizing other works for what? For being poorly crafted? For being badly conceived? For failing to carry out their own premises? No. For being "obscure" or "out of the way," as if that's a quality of the works themselves. (Not that "essential" is either, mind you!)



Logos said:


> Critics talk about the excellencies of Aprha Behn when they haven't read Shakespeare, or of an obscure Zoroastrian text when they haven't read the King James Bible.


Do they? Who? Who are they? What are their names? (How do you know that a critic praising Aphra Behn hasn't read Shakespeare?) I was a voracious reader as a child and declared English as my major in college. I went on the acquire a masters degree in literature and spent a decade working on a PhD in same. My area was Elizabethan drama. I never ever read any critic who praised Aphra Behn without having read Shakespeare, so far as I know. Far as I know, all the critics I read had read both Shakespeare and the King James bible. I know I did.



Logos said:


> The same absurd tendency can be found in music criticism--people who haven't listen to some of Mozart's greatest works touting a forgotten medieval Lithuanian housewife who wrote fugues for the slavic banjo. Keep clear of all that nonsense.


Keeping clear of nonsense is good advice. Assertions like the one that there are people who haven't listened to Mozart's greatest works (though I suppose they have listened to Mozart's minor works, eh?) who tout a medieval Lithuanian housewife (sexist, too?) who wrote fugues for the slavic banjo are pretty good nonsense.



Logos said:


> Sure, but average man's taste today is so corrupted that, if he were simply to follow his own caprice, he would be more likely to wind up in a musical ghetto rather than a musical parnassus.


I could spend many happy hours unpacking this wee bit silliness, but I'll resist the temptation to say simply that criticism that takes place entirely on the level of such generalizations as "the average man" is nae sa mooch creeticism as malarkey.



Logos said:


> The grab-bag "organic sampling" approach (which is precisely the one the common man uses) is the equivalent to having no guidance at all, in which case one might as well leave everyone to wander aimlessly as they already do.


You have a very low opinion of your fellow travellers, it's true. But is it true that your fellow travellers are low? (Are people wandering aimlessly? Is it fair to twist "organic sampling" into something trivial by adding "grab-bag" to it?)

Well, let's get down to specifics--if only you would!!

I grew up in a lower middle-class family. No one around me had any interest in music and certainly none in classical music. With the aid of a few 78s a few LPs and the radio, I began sampling classical music on my own. Of course, I was limited to whatever had been recorded and whatever the radio stations played. I'm not sure I'd want to call that "being led by the elders." So I listened and learned to make judgments for myself. I didn't "end up" anywhere, nor ghetto nor parnassus. I had a lot of fun, though, and still do. Among the composers I favored in my capricious grab-bagging were such people as Palestrina, Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Wagner, and Verdi. As well as a few (dozens and dozens) others, as I did not confine my listening to a (mostly) Germanic ghetto.

So much for your average man's capricious and aimless wandering.



Logos said:


> All this springs from the fallacy that critical thinking is a matter of simply finding what one "likes", rather than learning to like what is great.


Aside from the fact that no one, so far as I know, has ever said that "critical thinking is a matter of finding what one likes," there's another wee bit of fallaciousness going on here, and that is that learning to like different things is somehow a trivial activity if the different things one learns to like are not also "the great masterpieces of Western civilization (as approved by the best authorities)."


----------



## Logos

That's all well and good. My point was simply that if we operate on a "personalized taste" basis we'll end up with people that use a schizophrenic piñata as their avatar. Hypothetically speaking of course. Thank you modern progress for giving us such persons. How did the world ever get along without them?


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> That's all well and good. My point was simply that if we operate on a "personalized taste" basis we'll end up with people that use a schizophrenic piñata as their avatar. Hypothetically speaking of course. Thank you modern progress for giving us such persons. How did the world ever get along without them?


So, having had your post more comprehensively criticised than you could possibly have expected, the best you can do is comment on the poster's avatar?

Lame.


----------



## Logos

His argument was that, in his own life, he was without guidance in forming his taste, and yet his taste turned out to be magnificently pure and lofty; apparently we're to take this last part on faith alone, but seeing on the one hand how he lumps together the greatest composers with unnamed "dozens" of others, and on the other his penchant for the sharing of unnecessary personal details in a weird confessional kind of way, I find it more likely that we've got a standard case of decadent eclecticism. The pivot point of everything he said was his insistence on the perfection of his own taste, or at least the great lot of "fun" he had, which is meant to explode one of my arguments somehow, but again I don't know which one or by what means. You know, "comprehensive criticism" as you put it entails far more than simply disagreeing in strong language in an obsessive point by point reply. On has to actually _say_ something with words instead of stringing them together idiotically, with silly comments about your personal experiences and flaunting your own bad breeding.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> i find it more likely that we've got a standard case of *decadent eclecticism*. The pivot point of everything he said was his insistence on the perfection of his own taste, or at least the great lot of "fun" he had, which is meant to explode one of my arguments somehow, but again I don't know which one or by what means. You know, "comprehensive criticism" as you put it entails far more than simply disagreeing in strong language in an obsessive point by point reply. On has to actually _say_ something with words instead of stringing them together idiotically, with silly comments about your personal experiences and flaunting your own bad breeding.


On the other hand, stringing together words which convey, in the context of a discussion about music, nothing more than pomposity, is no more a guarantee of making coherent sense than anything posted by someguy.


----------



## Logos

Logos said:


> This begs an important question, how did the composers you call "the old giants" come to be called that, by you or by anyone else?


Apparently he expects me play into some kind of trap wherein I make some some hardheaded, blindly dogmatic affirmation of authority, and then he'll pounce on me to stick it to the 'man' and say: 'we're all already having fun and we don't need anybody to tell us how to lead our lives mister, or choose what is good and bad'. All these cocksure aesthetic hedonists have been around as long as the pyramids, but never have they been so common or so boring.


----------



## Logos

I don't see the pomposity in a simple phrase that's been correctly applied.


----------



## Guest

Logos, you're not some of kind of musical moralist are you? Believing that one's taste in music is indicative of the extent to which we are upright citizens?


----------



## Logos

Anything can reflect someone's moral nature, but artistic tastes usually show only the presence or lack of deep interest in artistic criticism rather than in morality. That is to say, because most listeners perceive music only in a sensual way as the play of sounds, rather than as something containing a moral idea or an analogy to a moral idea, so that it would be meaningless to make a moral inference from their taste in that which they never thought to have any moral standpoint at all. That would be like suspecting a man of the theft of something which he never knew to exist.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> Anything can reflect someone's moral nature, but artistic tastes usually show only the presence or lack of deep interest in artistic criticism rather than in morality. That is to say, because most listeners perceive music only in a sensual way as the play of sounds, rather than as something containing a moral idea or an analogy to a moral idea, so that it would be meaningless to make a moral inference from their taste in that which they never thought to have any moral standpoint at all.


Can you do 'simple'? I ask because you used the term 'decadent', a word I'd usually use (and seen used) in a moral context. You also talk about 'bad' breeding, 'corrupted' taste, straying into 'error'...you begin to sound like a preacher, and that those who 'follow their own caprice' are risking moral turpitude.


----------



## BurningDesire

Logos said:


> I don't see the pomposity in a simple phrase that's been correctly applied.


Cool story bro.


----------



## Logos

All right. Take for instance that message I received in which the poster brush aside everything I said in by putting an emphasis on the 'fun' of his musical choices. Now, that is a kind of aesthetic hedonism, a very common and mostly harmless kind of hedonism (no need to read something particularly sinister into that word). Many of the things we do are motivated strictly by an appeal to our own sense of pleasure--but when this impulse begins to cloud over any attempt to govern thing on a rational basis, inasmuch as it makes us start kicking and screaming rather than take any kind of stern word of correction from those who think with their heads rather than hearts (and therefore have a greater heft in matters of speculation), it has become a childish tyranny that only hinders personal growth in every attempt, and that I would call decadence, whether it be in an individual or in a great mass such as a political state.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> All right. Take for instance that message I received in which the poster brush aside everything I said in by putting an emphasis on the 'fun' of his musical choices. Now, that is a kind of aesthetic hedonism, a very common and mostly harmless kind of hedonism (no need to read something particularly sinister into that word). Many of the things we do are motivated strictly by an appeal to our own sense of pleasure--but when this impulse begins to cloud over any attempt to govern thing on a rational basis, inasmuch as it makes us start kicking and screaming rather than take any kind of stern word of correction from those who think with their heads rather than hearts (and therefore have a greater heft in matters of speculation), it has become a childish tyranny that only hinders personal growth in every attempt, and that I would call decadence, whether it be in an individual or in a great mass such as a political state.


Sorry, but why should musical tastes be governed by the stern words of those with 'heft'?

And in the context of music, what's wrong with hedonsim? I don't listen to music for any other reason. (Though I guess your definition of fun/hedonism will be different from mine.)


----------



## mmsbls

Please remember our Terms of Service when posting. In particular:

Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«


----------



## BurningDesire

mmsbls said:


> Please remember our Terms of Service when posting. In particular:
> 
> Do not post comments about other members person or »posting style« on the forum (unless said comments are unmistakably positive). Argue opinions all you like but do not get personal and never resort to »ad homs«


The cavalry has arrived!


----------



## Logos

MacLeod said:


> I don't listen to music for any other reason?


Why are you asking me?


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> Why are you asking me?


Typo - now corrected. It was a statement.


----------



## Logos

I think hedonism is at its least objectionable when it comes to music, but that isn't to say one shouldn't strive for something more edifying simply because it isn't fatal not to.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> I think hedonism is at its least objectionable when it comes to music, but that isn't to say one shouldn't strive for something more edifying simply because it isn't fatal not to.


Too many negatives for me there. What else should one strive for then?


----------



## BurningDesire

Logos said:


> I think hedonism is at its least objectionable when it comes to music, but that isn't to say one shouldn't strive for something more edifying simply because it isn't fatal not to.


Yeah! If somebody gives into musical hedonism, they may wind up liking utter garbage like Mozart!  The horror. They may even enjoy the product of such sonic swine as Beethoven, or even, god forbid, Tchaikovsky!


----------



## Logos

One should recognize that certain things are above one, and they ought to be respected; and rather than attempting to bring those things down to our level (as things upon which we can pass our judgment as likes or dislikes) as were are in our current state, we ought to aspire upwards to their level and judge ourselves by their standards. The contrary would be a state of the most astounding arrogance--to stand as a god passing judgment on the wise spirits that have already spoken in this world. It's more than a little ridiculous simply to think about it. In practical terms, this means taking a historical approach to criticism, valuing the verdict of the ages while using what is best in one's own faculties.


----------



## Logos

"Yeah! If somebody gives into musical hedonism, they may wind up liking utter garbage like Mozart! The horror. They may even enjoy the product of such sonic swine as Beethoven, or even, god forbid, Tchaikovsky!"

Sure but liking the right thing for the wrong reasons is just as bad as not liking it at all, and a stopped clock will be right twice a day.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> One should recognize that certain things are above one, and they ought to be respected; and rather than attempting to bring those things down to our level (as things upon which we can pass our judgment as likes or dislikes) as were are in our current state, we ought to aspire upwards to their level and judge ourselves by their standards. The contrary would be a state of the most astounding arrogance--to stand as a god passing judgment on the wise spirits that have already spoken in this world. It's more than a little ridiculous simply to think about it. In practical terms, this means taking a historical approach to criticism, valuing the verdict of the ages while using what is best in one's own faculties.


Noting the moderator's earlier intervention, I'll not exchange further. It's difficult to have a conversation with you (ie you, Logos, not you, 'one') without falling foul of criticising posting style. Suffice to say that music is meant to be enjoyed - and I use a broad definition of enjoyed - not revered, respected, immersed in formaldehyde and put on an altar.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> One should recognize that certain things are above one, and they ought to be respected; and rather than attempting to bring those things down into ourselves (as things upon which we can pass our judgment as likes or dislikes) as were are in our current state, but we ought to aspire upwards to their level and judge ourselves by their standards.


You first.



Logos said:


> The contrary would be a state of the most astounding arrogance--to stand as a god passing judgment on the wise spirits that have already spoken in this world.


Ahem....



Logos said:


> valuing the verdict of the ages


Hmmm. What is this "verdict of the ages" thing you so value?

You can either rely on the judgments of others or on the judgments of your own self or on a combination of the two. Since you've pretty effectively dismissed the latter two as insufficient, that leaves us with "the judgments of others," which raises the question, how were the judgments of the "others" formed? The only legitimate way, you appear to be saying, is by relying on the judgment of yet others even further back in time.

And so on.

We never get to a point where we're basing our judgments on anything other than the judgments of others. Seems pretty feeble to me. Without any sort of moral, ethical, or intellectual validity. To make a case for moral et cetera validity, you're going to have to do much better than (and much different from) "the wise spirits."


----------



## Logos

The judgments of others were formed in society far less decadent than our own. They could see clearly those things which are for us, buried under countless strata of ignorance, each one the record of some 'progress', most of which were in truth nothing more than the product of the basest greed and an overripe faith in the empirical sciences to solve all our problems.


----------



## Guest

Ah, yes. Yes, I see.

Those lucky folks. To be able to have all those orgies and such without the faintest whiff of decadence. Lucky!!

And the wars and the torture and the witch burnings and the stonings and the crucifixions. They could do all of that, un-decadently. And I admire them for it.

What have we done in comparison? Universal sufferage? Decadent. Abolition of slavery? Decadent. Why, we can't even save an endangered species without doing it decadently. Bad us. Bad, naughty us.

By the way, you too are a modern person, are you not?


----------



## Logos

Mentioning a past falling-away from excellence neither disproves the current falling-away or invalidates those periods of time more culturally rich than our own. To get into the particulars of forms of government and suffrage is really very out of the way, but I'll simply say for my part that I don't believe in _anyone's_ suffrage and have never seen the benefit of it. Allowing 100,000,000 idiots to rule us rather than 1 idiot will not boot us one way or the other in itself.


----------



## BurningDesire

Logos said:


> Mentioning a past falling-away from excellence neither disproves the current falling or those periods of time more culturally rich than our own. To get into the particulars of particular forms of government and suffrage in really very out of the way, but I'll simply say for my part that I don't believe in _anyone's_ suffrage and have never seen the benefit of it. Allowing 100,000,000 idiots to rule us rather than 1 idiot will not boot us one way or the other in itself.


Well considering that most people's lives are considerably better than in those "culturally rich times" (load of crap, btw), and things are getting better, not worse for most people, I'll take the 100,000,000 idiots over the 1 idiot any day :3


----------



## Logos

But getting better in a material sense only. At a certain point, one's belly is full and one has all the american-style suburban amenities--then what? What is left when the fulfillment of material needs has reached critical mass? All that's left is to wallow in the freakishness that's resulted from the neglect of every kind of cultural improvement as opposed to the material.


----------



## Arsakes

Full set of Beethoven, Dvorak, Schumann and Brahms symphonies.
Then start listening to their chamber and other orchestral works and finally try earlier and later composers.


----------



## Guest

Has anyone actually noticed that this thread was begun back in 2006 and the OP has never been back to offer a comment on the responses (assuming they've even been back to read them!)


----------



## Guest

Yeah. Threads take on a life of their own.


----------



## neoshredder

Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, and Dvorak would be a good selection imo. Avoid the newer music as that is for the more advanced listener imo. But if you like advanced music anyways, then go for it. It took me a while to get into newer music and still I tend to go back to my old habits as an easier style for casual listening.


----------



## BurningDesire

neoshredder said:


> Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, and Dvorak would be a good selection imo. Avoid the newer music as that is for the more advanced listener imo. But if you like advanced music anyways, then go for it. It took me a while to get into newer music and still I tend to go back to my old habits as an easier style for casual listening.


Don't tell people to avoid music. They can check it out if it sounds interesting to them. Plenty of people enjoy Stravinsky or Varese or even Babbitt on a first listening. If they don't, maybe one day they'll return to it, after gaining more experiences, and maybe then it will click.


----------



## Logos

BurningDesire said:


> Don't tell people to avoid music..


Don't tell people not to tell people to avoid music.


----------



## Logos

Logos said:


> Don't tell people not to tell people to avoid music.


Don't tell people not to tell people to not to tell people to avoid music.


----------



## bigshot

Modern music is for "advanced listeners" but Bach is good for beginners?


----------



## Logos

Bach wouldn't be nearly sophisticated enough to keep up with atonal flatulence


----------



## Carpenoctem

neoshredder said:


> Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, and Dvorak would be a good selection imo. *Avoid the newer music as that is for the more advanced listener imo. But if you like advanced music anyways, then go for it.*


What do you mean by "advanced"?


----------



## Renaissance

An "advanced listener" finds in a simple piece by Bach enough enjoyment for months. I doubt he will need "advanced music". And I don't see how is this advanced given the fact that it can't be analysed by common senses or for its technical developments. Not to mention that everyone can..."create" such "advanced music".


----------



## neoshredder

bigshot said:


> Modern music is for "advanced listeners" but Bach is good for beginners?


His musical concepts are advanced but his music is enjoyable for beginners imo. Same thing with Beethoven. Though you might want to avoid Beethoven's String Quartets.


----------



## neoshredder

Carpenoctem said:


> What do you mean by "advanced"?


Going away from tonality. Berg and Schoenberg for an example of that. Even Bartok is pretty out there though still tonal.


----------



## Logos

I write the most advanced music because I go away from music.


----------



## neoshredder

Alright maybe avoiding new music is a bit extreme. Just remember it is more for critical listening. It takes more time to sink in the ideas. Baroque, Classical, and Romantic are probably the most accessible Eras in general. Once you want to expand your music knowledge, that is where the 20th Century comes in. Some brilliant ideas come out of the 20th Century.


----------



## Guest

neoshredder said:


> Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, and Dvorak would be a good selection imo. Avoid the newer music as that is for the more advanced listener imo. But if you like advanced music anyways, then go for it. It took me a while to get into newer music and still I tend to go back to my old habits as an easier style for casual listening.


I just met a young college student who said that he was just getting into classical music.

He said that he had not listened to much yet, but that he really liked John Cage.


----------



## Carpenoctem

I think it's personal. Some people start with atonal music, others with tonal, but it doesn't matter as long as you like what you're listening.


----------



## BurningDesire

Renaissance said:


> An "advanced listener" finds in a simple piece by Bach enough enjoyment for months. I doubt he will need "advanced music". And I don't see how is this advanced given the fact that it can't be analysed by common senses or for its technical developments. Not to mention that everyone can..."create" such "advanced music".


A silly statement on the part of Neoshredder is no excuse to delve into absurd statements.


----------



## BurningDesire

Logos said:


> I write the most advanced music because I go away from music.


Tonality != Music. Sorry to burst your insular bubble.


----------



## BurningDesire

Carpenoctem said:


> I think it's personal. Some people start with atonal music, others with tonal, but it doesn't matter as long as you like what you're listening.


Wise words


----------



## neoshredder

So I guess there is no such thing as more accessible classical music. Everyone has a different interpretation of accessible. But I think beginners are likely to find Bach-Sibelius more enjoyable than Berg-Ligeti. But I guess they should try both anyways.


----------



## bigshot

neoshredder said:


> His musical concepts are advanced but his music is enjoyable for beginners imo. Same thing with Beethoven.


I think you have a reasonable definition of good music there.


----------



## Guest

neoshredder said:


> So I guess there is no such thing as more accessible classical music. Everyone has a different interpretation of accessible.


Exactly. "Accessible" is not a quality of the music, it is a feature of a listener's experience.



neoshredder said:


> But I think beginners are likely to find Bach-Sibelius more enjoyable than Berg-Ligeti. But I guess they should try both anyways.


"Beginners" does not identify a unified group of people, all with the same needs or sharing common experiences. The guy I just met who likes John Cage might find Bach-Sibelius much less interesting or palatable than Berg-Ligeti.

The problem of terminology here I think comes from taking "beginners" to be a description of a unified group.


----------



## mud

some guy said:


> The problem of terminology here I think comes from taking "beginners" to be a description of a unified group.


The problem of terminology is that you are talking about two or more different genres. Classical music proper, and its antitheses in contemporary classical.


----------



## BurningDesire

mud said:


> The problem of terminology is that you are talking about two or more different genres. Classical music proper, and its antitheses in contemorary classical.


Yeah! Jeez, contemorary classical is pretty awful. Good thing we have wonderful contemporary classical to fall back on :3


----------



## mud

BurningDesire said:


> Yeah! Jeez, contemorary classical is pretty awful. Good thing we have wonderful contemporary classical to fall back on :3


Oh well, you only had a typo to fall back on because the rest of my statement was correct.


----------



## Guest

Oops. Another typo. You left off the "in" in front of "correct."


----------



## mud

some guy said:


> Oops. Another typo. You left off the "in" in front of "correct."


Contemporary classical composition is nothing but typos. Try correcting that one, it might come out sounding like classical music.


----------



## niv

I think a nice beginners entry to classical music would be a short list of a few pieces sampling different "flavors" of classical. Something like A bit of Bach, a bit of Beethoven, a bit of Chopin, a bit of Debussy, a bit of Stravinsky. It should contain at least one symphony, one concerto, one solo keyboard work, one string quartet. Something like that.

Something like this list http://www.therestisnoise.com/top_10_summer_hits/


----------



## neoshredder

A bit of Mozart as well. Especially his Piano Concertos.


----------



## Mich

Definitely Beethoven's piano sonatas; especially the Appassionata Op 101 sonata! Also, Chopin is great too, particularly his mazurkas


----------



## neoshredder

Sibelius's Symphonies, Beethoven's Symphonies, Vivaldi's Concertos, Tchaikovsky's Ballets, Strauss Jr's Waltzes, Hummel's Trumpet Concerto, Mozart's last 4 Symphonies, and etc.


----------



## Pablo B

This is a very good starting point to me. I've been around classical music for not that long, so I took some of the recommendations and followed it myself.
Thanks for Mahler's 5th Adagietto. Beautiful music coming from the unmanifested!!


----------

