# Who, if any, were the main influences for Beethoven's Piano Sonatas?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Mozart and Haydn? I was more thinking CPE Bach and Clementi. Am I right in saying that Clementi was the first composer to apply introductions to the start of some of his piano sonatas? I notice Mozart and Haydn don't do this. 

Also it would be interesting to know how Beethoven thought about Scarlatti's monstrous oeuvre. 

Any others,or is Beethoven completely original from the Op.2 No.1 sonata?


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

The early sonatas (Nos. 1-11 or so): *Haydn, Mozart, and Clementi, mixed with his own flavor of course.*

The Middle Sonatas (Nos. 12- 20 or so): I can still hear lots of Mozart and Haydn, but definitely a lot more of his own style now.

The Late Sonatas (Nos. 21- 32): Definitely Bach and Baroque composers were the influences for the fugues- now Beethoven rarely shows influence of Mozart and Haydn, although in the 25th G Major Sonata it definitely shows up again... I would say if I had to choose one composer who influenced Beethoven in the late sonatas it would be himself, in his earlier works both for solo piano and other pieces.

Scarlatti was one of the most revolutionary composers of the Baroque era IMO but I'm not so sure Beethoven was influenced by his sonatas...


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Jan Dussek for the early sonatas.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

beetzart said:


> or is Beethoven completely original from the Op.2 No.1 sonata?


Yep, nothing equal before him or after him


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I think the main influence was from his own mind. Sort of "let me test the limits of this fortepiano and see what I can come up with." As better fortepianos were produced, his works got more challenging for them.

Imagine him writing for a Steinway Model D Concert Grand? He might have come up with the Ives Concord Sonata.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

hpowders said:


> I think the main influence was from his own mind. Sort of "let me test the limits of this fortepiano and see what I can come up with." As better fortepianos were produced, his works got more challenging for them.
> 
> Imagine him writing for a Steinway Model D Concert Grand? He might have come up with the Ives Concord Sonata.


I have long thought that in his last few sonatas, Beethoven more or less was writing for a modern concert grand. He was certainly writing for an instrument with a greater range and resonance (and maybe greater subtlety of pedalling) than the instruments of his day.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I have long thought that in his last few sonatas, Beethoven more or less was writing for a modern concert grand. He was certainly writing for an instrument with a greater range and resonance (and maybe greater subtlety of pedalling) than the instruments of his day.


People keep repeating this, but I have no idea why.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Chronochromie said:


> People keep repeating this, but I have no idea why.


because they sound much better on a grand?

I'm gonna look out for some late sonata's on a correct period pianoforte and i'll get back to you!


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Mozart's K. 310 Sonata.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I tend to think he is purely original in each sonata. You could argue that Op.2 No.1 starts with a Mannheim Rocket and is similar to Mozart's sonata in C minor. But Beethoven is more adventurous with simple ideas and develops them to their limit, just because he can. Although, saying that I would have guessed his intro into the 'Pathetique' Op.13 is loosely based on Clementi's experiment with slow Grave preludes. Yet again Beethoven takes the idea and runs around the track several times before Clementi has gotten out of the blocks. The Grave to the Op.13 would have blown away people at the time of its publication purely because it was so amazingly original, apart from the idea started with Clement, whose sonatas Beethoven carried around with him.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Razumovskymas said:


> because they sound much better on a grand?
> 
> I'm gonna look out for some late sonata's on a correct period pianoforte and i'll get back to you!


Let me just quote the master himself:

"Es ist un bleibt ein ungenügendes Instrument"

"It is and stays an inadequate instrument"

it's a quote from 1826, talking about the pianoforte at that time.

Of course we will never know what he would have thought about a modern Steinway, maybe he would've found it even more inadequate..............but I don't think so 

Apart from that I can only say that Mozart and Haydn sound fine on pianofortes of that time but with Beethoven mostly it just sounds like a toy piano, an instrument that's just not finished yet. Of course there's a fine line between an interesting sound that CAN sound beautiful as is the case with the later pianofortes. But mostly when it sounds really good it's an instrument from far after Beethovens death.

I give you this example:
sounds absolutely beautiful but I'm afraid Beethoven already past away when this instrument was made. I think this is more the kind of instrument Liszt would've played.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Pat Fairlea said:


> I have long thought that in his last few sonatas, Beethoven more or less was writing for a modern concert grand. He was certainly writing for an instrument with a greater range and resonance (and maybe greater subtlety of pedalling) than the instruments of his day.


This is actually a fact. Beethoven was constantly demanding a piano with great range, more power and deeper resonance. In 1818, he received an 1817 english Broadwood that was given as a gift. It was the first piano to have some of the characteristics of the modern grand with 6 octaves (more than most previous pianos, but less than the modern grand with 7+ octaves), deeper bass and a more 'powerful sound'. It had an una corda (soft) pedal on the left and a split damper pedal on the right.

Beethoven was told of the gift as early as 1817, but it took almost a year for the piano to reach him, it having taken a long circuitous route by sea, followed by journey by cart to Vienna. It arrived somewhat damaged and had to be fixed.

Beethoven's final sonatas, Op106 #29 Hammerklavier to Op111 #32, were composed between 1818 and 1822. He took delivery of another piano in 1823, but that was, of course, after the #32 had been composed so Beethoven probably composed these final sonatas on the Broadwood. It is not an accident that those sonatas take advantage of the extra octave and the improved bass. In a master class, Daniel Barenboim pointed out that in these final sonatas, the left and right hands are often spread farther apart than in the earlier sonatas. The name, 'Hammerklavier' was given to the #29 to specify that it was to be played on a 'grand' piano and not a harpsichord and it is thought that the use of the name was connected with the new Broadwood.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Razumovskymas said:


> Of course we will never know what he would have thought about a modern Steinway, maybe he would've found it even more inadequate..............but I don't think so


It's nice that you love the Steinway in Beethoven, but from what I gather he was writing for the instruments of his day "faults" and all.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Beethoven's late piano sonatas to me are probably the greatest body of work for the instrument. I like Liszt and his Sonata in B minor and all his etudes but they don't come close to Beethoven's final works for piano. Then again his transcription of Beethoven's symphonies is something very special and no doubt one of the hardest works for the piano ever written. 

Does anyone find the 1st movement of the E minor Op.90 sonata rather CPE Bachesque? Also, I find it quite chilling with its strange non repeated exposition that fades sublimely into an amazing development section, which is a part of music I find myself repeating over and over. He can certainly write music that gives a haunted feel. The 2nd movement of the Op.90 has a more reserved sacred hymn like feel to it. I have felt of it like that for 3 decades even though it is a secular piece and I'm an atheist.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The influence of CPE Bach is central. Some of the things Beethoven got from him: cyclic thematic unity and its dramatization, the use of recitative passages, flirtation with his father's contrapuntal style, sometimes fragmentary principal themes comprising contrasting elements, and immediate distant modulations within a main theme. 

The biographical evidence of Beethoven's interest is found in his belief that everyone should have CPE's scores for study and in his repeated attempts to cadge free scores from Bach's publishers.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

Chronochromie said:


> People keep repeating this, but I have no idea why.


I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case it is in part from going through the scores and seeing what Beethoven requires of the instrument and performer, and in part from hearing the sonatas played on modern rebuilds of contemporary instruments, for example by Melvyn Tan. The contemp approach works well on early to middle period Beethoven: the Waldstein sonata, in particular, gains a clarity that is often lacking when played on a modern grand. But once you get to about Op 90, it takes a modern instrument to bring out all that is inherent in the score. Of course, Beethoven had no idea what a Steinway Model D would be like, but he knew what sound he was trying to achieve and scored the pieces accordingly. Although Beethoven experimented with different pedal mechanisms and effects, the piano of his day never had a true sostenuto pedal, and yet this pedal is frequently useful, if not essential, in those later works. Basically, as his musical sound-world developed and his deafness cut him off and turned him inwards more and more, Beethoven wrote what he meant and the development of the piano had to spend the next few decades catching up with him.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Pat Fairlea said:


> Basically, as his musical sound-world developed and his deafness cut him off and turned him inwards more and more, Beethoven wrote what he meant and the development of the piano had to spend the next few decades catching up with him.


But they're still perfectly playable on fortepiano, are they not? Anyway, whatever the answer I will still enjoy both Brautigam and Pollini in the late sonatas.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Actually now I gave it some serious thought I think his main influence is J.S. Bach. I don't know if it's correct but I even hear Bach in his first sonata. Don't know if he studied a lot of Bach by that time. It's more obvious in his late fugues but sometimes I just hear Bach everywhere in his sonata's. 

Could be caused by my lack of knowledge of pre-Beethoven keyboard music apart from Bach so I could be hearing Bach in every well constructed piano music.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Razumovskymas said:


> Actually now I gave it some serious thought I think his main influence is J.S. Bach. I don't know if it's correct but I even hear Bach in his first sonata. Don't know if he studied a lot of Bach by that time. It's more obvious in his late fugues but sometimes I just hear Bach everywhere in his sonata's.
> 
> Could be caused by my lack of knowledge of pre-Beethoven keyboard music apart from Bach so I could be hearing Bach in every well constructed piano music.


Yes, he knew his JS Bach! Beethoven could play the whole WTC from memory as a teen, if I am remembering correctly. Still, I don't hear any influence in the first sonata - CPE for sure, but not JS.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

EdwardBast said:


> Yes, he knew his JS Bach! Beethoven could play the whole WTC from memory as a teen, if I am remembering correctly. Still, I don't hear any influence in the first sonata - CPE for sure, but not JS.


I read some analysis of Beethoven's sonata no15 where some small references to Bach where pointed out. Interestingly before that I would've never guessed that those influences where there in sonata no15, which didn't remind me at all of J.S. Bach. But once someone points it out it's obvious and since then I'm always looking for J.S. Bach in Beethoven's sonatas. I guess on a micro-level of course it gets easier to hear anything as an influence. When you look at the larger scale it probably gets more complicated.

As for C.P.E for me personally indeed I find that he's even more dramatic and dynamic as for example Mozart and Haydn, more playing with time and silence as Beethoven does.


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