# Bad Efforts by Great Artists



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

My stepdad and I were on a listening binge and we are previewing CD's for our next month's classical music group.

Heard this:









Netrebko is a wonderful artist but this album was terrible. Forced singing and scooping the notes bothered both my stepdad and me.

Thus for me, a failure.

Personally I think that Netrebko should avoid heavier roles particularly Verdi and Wagner.

So any notable failures by great artists (operatic or instrumentalists)?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

If we start talking about singers taking on parts too heavy for their voices, we could be here all day. But that discussion is had often enough in the opera forum, so I'll just say that I totally agree about Netrebko. She's a lyric soprano, not a dramatic or a coloratura, much less a dramatic coloratura. If you listen to just the samples of this on Amazon, you'll hear a voice, lacking depth and amplitude but closely miked, pushing at its limits and developing a wide, throbbing vibrato, indistinguishable from her undistinguished appoximation of a trill. I gather she's recently added Lady Macbeth to her repertoire. Too bad.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> If we start talking about singers taking on parts too heavy for their voices, we could be here all day. But that discussion is had often enough in the opera forum, so I'll just say that I totally agree about Netrebko. She's a lyric soprano, not a dramatic or a coloratura, much less a dramatic coloratura. If you listen to just the samples of this on Amazon, you'll hear a voice, lacking depth and amplitude but closely miked, pushing at its limits and developing a wide, throbbing vibrato, indistinguishable from her undistinguished appoximation of a trill. I gather she's recently added Lady Macbeth to her repertoire. Too bad.


Good points  Trying to keep this thread about failures of great artists. Here is another example:









Lang Lang used to be a wonderful pianist but his albums have gotten progressively worse.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

András Schiff-his latest performance of the Bach keyboard partitas-too darn fast. I liked what he did in his first WTC Book One recording, but his latest Bach....no.

Thankfully I can turn to Trevor Pinnock on harpsichord for the partitas and Gustav Leonhardt, also on harpsichord for the WTC to set things right again.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2015)

Boulez's decision to record an altered version of Varese's Deserts makes me rather unhappy, as his recordings are typically an easy first pick for me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Von Karajan having conducted any repertoire early than Schubert springs immediately to mind :lol:


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Von Karajan having conducted any repertoire early than Schubert springs immediately to mind :lol:


von Karajan and Bach mix as closely as oil and water for me too.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

I'll just leave this here...


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

dgee said:


> View attachment 61993
> 
> 
> I'll just leave this here...


I hope that Bernstein at least conducted his own piece well despite the choice of singers.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Probably Furtwängler's Bach recordings which just seem completely odd in interpretation and out of place amidst everything Furtwängler is famous for.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

dgee said:


> View attachment 61993
> 
> 
> I'll just leave this here...


Oh, don't just leave it there, no! If it weren't so patently absurd it would be nearly egregious! This needs some very special recognition and a type of singular award.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Oh, don't just leave it there, no! If it weren't so patently absurd it would be nearly egregious! This needs some very special recognition and a type of singular award.


Man those voices are definitely overkill/wrong for that musical easily.

At least we didn't get Natalie Dessay attempting this LOL.


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## Oscarf (Dec 13, 2014)

I listened recently on the radio to an old recording of Pavarotti singing some Gluck, can not be described with words... Even the greatest can sometimes make some odd choices


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

albertfallickwang said:


> Good points  Trying to keep this thread about failures of great artists. Here is another example:
> 
> View attachment 61981
> 
> ...


I think that every recent and forthcoming Lang Lang album is an act of defiance against the sort of listeners that dominate this forum. For that alone, I admire him. I am in no place to evaluate his pianism, so I defer to my betters here in the judgment that he sucks.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lang-Lang gave 'his only performance in this city this season' in my town last year. It was not in a recital hall, auditorium or symphony hall (all available in that city), but _in the opera house._ The promotional copy promised a large screen projection of the pianist's face during the recital, so "you can watch his every expression."

This is no longer about pianism or the music. It is a new hybrid more like to watching actors in films in those large (40 ft. wide) close-ups shots of their faces.

That promotional Lang-Lang recital copy pictured up memories of seeing Greta Garbo in the film _Grand Hotel._

The formerly known as a pianist Lang-Lang has become his own version of a 1932 cinematic Hollywood spectacular melodrama, an evening long continual full close-up of his emotive facial mugging while providing his own background soundtrack.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Lang-Lang gave 'the only performance in _________ this season' in my town last year. It was not in a recital hall, auditorium or symphony hall, but _in the opera house._ The promotional copy promised a large screen projection of the pianist's face during the recital, so "you can see every expression."
> 
> This is no longer about pianism, or the music. It is a new hybrid more like to watching the close-ups of the actors in films, large (40 ft. wide) close-ups of the face.
> 
> ...


He has a symbiotic relationship with people like you. You both get what you need from each other. It's like the relationship between fundamentalist Christians/Jews and fundamentalist Muslims, or nationalist Japanese and nationalist Koreans/Chinese. Without each other, you would not have a cause. But the world has the privilege of watching you reciprocally provoke each other.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

science said:


> He has a symbiotic relationship with people like you. You both get what you need from each other. It's like the relationship between fundamentalist Christians/Jews and fundamentalist Muslims, or nationalist Japanese and nationalist Koreans/Chinese. Without each other, you would not have a cause. But the world has the privilege of watching you reciprocally provoke each other.


Yes, we clearly need more provocation around here.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, we clearly need more provocation around here.


That. . . . . . . or defibrillator paddles.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> He has a symbiotic relationship with people like you. You both get what you need from each other. It's like the relationship between fundamentalist Christians/Jews and fundamentalist Muslims, or nationalist Japanese and nationalist Koreans/Chinese. Without each other, you would not have a cause. But the world has the privilege of watching you reciprocally provoke each other.


I doubt if Lang-Lang or his publicists are actually combing zInternets looking for any comments about him from us punters on classical music fora such as this one 

... and you're free to go to such a recital in your town's opera house, if you are so fortunate that the artist and his manager have booked him there for one night only. Then you can tell us all about it.

But, _hey!_ I really like _Grand Hotel._


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, we clearly need more provocation around here.


It is a tic and a favored hobby for some, you know -- a way to keep ye ole adrenaline up.

Me, I get enough jaywalking across four to six lanes of a busy urban avenue.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> That. . . . . . . or defibrillator paddles.


Naw, computer chip pacemaker, replete with auto defibrillator function is the way to go. Simple implant, no external props to carry about -- makes you more of a surprise to others.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> It is a tic and a favored hobby for some, you know -- a way to keep ye ole adrenaline up.
> 
> Me, I get enough jaywalking across four to six lanes of a busy urban avenue.


"Live dangerously. Build your houses on the slopes of Vesuvius."

- Nietzsche

_;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Naw, computer chip pacemaker, replete with auto defibrillator function is the way to go. Simple implant, no external props to carry about -- makes you more of a surprise to others.


Keep them on their toes. . . infinitely and endlessly. Full drama, 24-7. 'Go all the way, and then when you've went _too far_?-- _then_ reel it back in'-- my motto, my credo, my_ life_. ;D


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> I doubt if Lang-Lang or his publicists are actually combing zInternets looking for any comments about him from us punters on classical music fora such as this one
> 
> ... and you're free to go to such a recital in your town's opera house, if you are so fortunate that the artist and his manager have booked him there for one night only. Then you can tell us all about it.
> 
> But, _hey!_ I really like _Grand Hotel._


This might matter if you _only_ exist on the internet.

Given that you (plural) exist in real life too, Lang Lang and his publicists, fans, and whatevers are definitely able to hear from your side loud and clear.

I'd never dare attend a Lang Lang concert, and if I happened to sneak in, I'd certainly never admit it here.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

science said:


> This might matter if you _only_ exist on the internet.
> 
> Given that you (plural) exist in real life too, Lang Lang and his publicists, fans, and whatevers are definitely able to hear from your side loud and clear.
> 
> I'd never dare attend a Lang Lang concert, and if I happened to sneak in, I'd certainly never admit it here.


I plan to attend the Lang Lang concert when he comes later on this fall.  I never heard him live so maybe it will be a different experience than his recordings.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> This might matter if you _only_ exist on the internet.
> 
> Given that you (plural) exist in real life too, Lang Lang and his publicists, fans, and whatevers are definitely able to hear from your side loud and clear.
> 
> I'd never dare attend a Lang Lang concert, and if I happened to sneak in, I'd certainly never admit it here.


Why, do people picket them or some such? I hear they're packed with people who have a great time. You ought to go if you want to, and yea, even talk about it if you care to.

I can't tell you how many concerts I've been to with something about / on the program clearly not to 'the taste of others,' a lot of that a performance of music many readily dis or mock. If I'd been such a sheep about 'what others thought,' I would've missed out on decades of seriously great nights out. I really can not believe a grown man lets people's opinions on an internet forum influence his decisions about something as individual and idiosyncratic as his personal curiosity and musical taste... you gotta be joking.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> "Live dangerously. Build your houses on the slopes of Vesuvius."
> 
> - Nietzsche
> 
> _;D_


I doubt if he had in mind jerking some anonymous person's chain on an internet forum, unless he was both wildly prescient and petty.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> Why, do people picket them or some such? I hear they're packed with people who have a great time. You ought to go if you want to, and yea, even talk about it if you care to.


You'd love that, wouldn't you? But as they say in Korea, "No way buddy." Braver men than I can dare that minefield.



PetrB said:


> I can't tell you how many concerts I've been to with something about / on the program clearly not to 'the taste of others,' a lot of that a performance of music many readily dis or mock. If I'd been such a sheep about 'what others thought,' I would've missed out on decades of seriously great nights out. I really can not believe a grown man lets people's opinions on an internet forum influence his decisions about something as individual and idiosyncratic as his personal curiosity and musical taste... you gotta be joking.


But who's to say I would like it? Maybe my tastes are as "good" as yours, and then I'm just out the cash.

I'll save it for a concert I'd rather go to.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> You'd love that, wouldn't you? But as they say in Korea, "No way buddy." Braver men than I can dare that minefield.


If an imaginary antagonist is needed in order to keep ones adrenaline up and vent a lifetime of impacted rage, I guess I'm as good as anything or anyone else for that... although I think it a weirder sort of imaginary playmate than usual.

From my perspective, it looks to me like for those who need or like that sort of imaginary antagonist, just about anyone will do, really, i.e. I drop away from TC, that need would be readily found by choosing another, and I believe another would have to quickly be chosen to satisfy.

Some people just aren't happy unless they perpetually have some one on their s*** list.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> I doubt if he had in mind jerking some anonymous person's chain on an internet forum, unless he was both wildly prescient and petty.


Perhaps you can tell us about it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Perhaps you can tell us about it.


Thanks, but my biographer would be severely miffed if I did not keep that exclusive to her -- since she is working solely on spec, she needs every little nugget.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

PetrB said:


> If an imaginary antagonist is needed in order to keep ones adrenaline up and vent a lifetime of impacted rage, I guess I'm as good as anything or anyone else for that... although I think it a weirder sort of imaginary playmate than usual.
> 
> From my perspective, it looks to me like for those who need or like that sort of imaginary antagonist, just about anyone will do, really, i.e. I drop away from TC, that need would be readily found by choosing another, and I believe another would have to quickly be chosen to satisfy.
> 
> Some people just aren't happy unless they perpetually have some one on their s*** list.


Of course that is not what is going on here, but I won't try to persuade you.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> Of course that is not what is going on here, but I won't try to persuade you.


Slow down a bit. Now back up: Don't you find the idea of projecting Lang lang's face on a big screen so folks can watch him emote as he plays just a little grotesque or bizarre? I mean, surely you can support PetrB in thinking that scene belongs in a surreal comic novel, maybe by Pynchon or David Foster Wallace, and not in real life?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> Slow down a bit. Now back up: Don't you find the idea of projecting Lang lang's face on a big screen so folks can watch him emote as he plays just a little grotesque or bizarre? I mean, surely you can support PetrB in thinking that scene belongs in a surreal comic novel, maybe by Pynchon or David Foster Wallace, and not in real life?


Thomas Pynchon in real life ain't so bad is it?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

albertfallickwang said:


> Thomas Pynchon in real life ain't so bad is it?


In someone else's life? Fine. But I'm quite happy German rockets don't devastate every trysting place in my past. And glad I don't have a bizarre industrial rubber fetish. Or wrestle ersatz octopi on North Sea beaches. Or hunt alligators in the sewers of New York City. Or slowly lose body parts over 70 years until I am half flesh and half metal. Or roam the hills of Northern California beset by Thanatoids.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> Slow down a bit. Now back up: Don't you find the idea of projecting Lang lang's face on a big screen so folks can watch him emote as he plays just a little grotesque or bizarre? I mean, surely you can support PetrB in thinking that scene belongs in a surreal comic novel, maybe by Pynchon or David Foster Wallace, and not in real life?


I don't have any feeling, positive or negative, about that. Certainly nothing that would occasion words like "grotesque or bizarre."

As with almost anything that doesn't involve people getting hurt, my feeling is, "Let people do what they want to do." It's basically none of my business. I don't judge people for wanting to watch Lang Lang emote any more than I judge them for watching reality TV, enjoying poorly-written romance novels, putting pink plastic flamingos in their yards, saying things like "we were locavore before locavores were cool," drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon, or showing off their sensitive musical taste on message boards.

It doesn't have to be my thing, and the wider culture may well recognize my thing as superior, but I'd rather try not to internalize that judgment, and especially not to attempt to regulate other people's taste through expressions of that judgement.

Ultimately: scoffing at people watching Lang Lang emote is far more déclassé than merely watching Lang Lang emote. Scoffing at such scoffing is almost an ethical imperative.

Internalize that!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> I don't have any feeling, positive or negative, about that. Certainly nothing that would occasion words like "grotesque or bizarre."
> 
> As with almost anything that doesn't involve people getting hurt, my feeling is, "Let people do what they want to do." It's basically none of my business. I don't judge people for wanting to watch Lang Lang emote any more than I judge them for watching reality TV, enjoying poorly-written romance novels, putting pink plastic flamingos in their yards, saying things like "we were locavore before locavores were cool," drinking Pabst Blue Ribbon, or showing off their sensitive musical taste on message boards.
> 
> ...


You have it wrong Science. Neither I nor PetrB (correct me if I am wrong, P) is scoffing at those groping toward a deep artistic experience who somehow ended up at a Lang Lang concert instead  They are innocents, unshorn lambs who deserve guidance. My derision is aimed at the cynical bas***ds with the shears.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> You have it wrong Science. Neither I nor PetrB (correct me if I am wrong, P) is scoffing at those groping toward a deep artistic experience who somehow ended up at a Lang Lang concert instead  They are innocents, unshorn lambs who deserve guidance. My derision is aimed at the cynical bas***ds with the shears.


Mr. Bast, I appreciate your attempts, but think you won't convince. It is all an elitist snob class war of put downs and making people aware of 'their place,' it seems. And of course the oppressor can _not_ have a sensibility as basic as seeing this concert promo for a Lang Lang concert and finding it utterly surreal and that conjuring up laughable images. (For all we know, that is a part and parcel of the oppressor elitist's sense of humor and therefore also justifiably vilified.)

If you did convince otherwise I think you would very much deprive someone of one flavor of their very big kind of fun.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> You have it wrong Science. Neither I nor PetrB (correct me if I am wrong, P) is scoffing at those groping toward a deep artistic experience who somehow ended up at a Lang Lang concert instead  They are innocents, unshorn lambs who deserve guidance. My derision is aimed at the cynical bas***ds with the shears.


I wonder, are you completely serious?

Because, if so, why would you prefer to adopt this paternalistic scorn rather than a broadminded tolerance of difference?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Glenn Gould's performance of the Brahms First Piano Concerto with Leonard Bernstein conducting.

Ludicrously slow. What was the point?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> I wonder, are you completely serious?
> 
> Because, if so, why would you prefer to adopt this paternalistic scorn rather than a broadminded tolerance of difference?


As a long-time toiler in music education and scholarship, my natural impulse is not toward a broadminded tolerance of bad taste or of those who cynically and venally promote it. Expecting that is like expecting a teacher of biology to tolerate creationism in the classroom. And I don't see faith in the educability of neophytes as a sign of scorn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

In addition to my comment above, I've always thought the Arrau/Giulini performance of the Brahms First Piano Concerto was morbidly too slow also.

So arrest me!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Stravinsky conducted recording of _Les Noces,_ using the English libretto --_gasp!_ from 1959; with pianists Samuel Barber, Aaron Copland, Lukas Foss, and Roger Sessions... a real horror and a complete bust.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> As a long-time toiler in music education and scholarship, my natural impulse is not toward a broadminded tolerance of bad taste or of those who cynically and venally promote it. Expecting that is like expecting a teacher of biology to tolerate creationism in the classroom. And I don't see faith in the educability of neophytes as a sign of scorn.


I'm sorry, man, but I don't think there is an analogy. Creation is factually wrong. That watching Lang Lang's face on a screen sucks is your opinion. Have you actually been teaching attitudes rather than knowledge?


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Glenn Gould's performance of the Brahms First Piano Concerto with Leonard Bernstein conducting.
> 
> Ludicrously slow. What was the point?


Deliberate because Gould was examining the soul of the piece.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> I'm sorry, man, but I don't think there is an analogy. Creation is factually wrong. That watching Lang Lang's face on a screen sucks is your opinion. Have you actually been teaching attitudes rather than knowledge?


You refuse to grasp an essential point: *No one cares about the watching*. For centuries pianists have been trained to refrain from emotional displays of this kind because it distracts from the music and places an undue emphasis on theatricality. Making such mugging the center of attention is crass in the extreme. Serious music students don't need to be taught this attitude. It is a cultural norm they pick up by osmosis or from their first teacher. There is nothing more I can say on this matter.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Of course we have the converse and have bad artists playing great stuff.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> You refuse to grasp an essential point: *No one cares about the watching*. For centuries pianists have been trained to refrain from emotional displays of this kind because it distracts from the music and places an undue emphasis on theatricality. Making such mugging the center of attention is crass in the extreme. Serious music students don't need to be taught this attitude. It is a cultural norm they pick up by osmosis or from their first teacher. There is nothing more I can say on this matter.


I grasp very clearly that it is your opinion that "no one" - which includes that audience - is "crass in the extreme." ("Crass!" Such an interesting word to choose.)

I also grasp that your opinion is traditional. And that it is not a fact.

Let people do what they want to do. I don't care if they want to see a cat play the piano. In your insistence on judging them, putting them into their place, you lower yourself.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> I grasp very clearly that it is your opinion that "no one" - which includes that audience - is "crass in the extreme." ("Crass!" Such an interesting word to choose.)
> 
> I also grasp that your opinion is traditional. And that it is not a fact.
> 
> Let people do what they want to do. I don't care if they want to see a cat play the piano. In your insistence on judging them, putting them into their place, you lower yourself.


I have expressed no opinion whatever on people in the audience. Nor have I expressed any opinion on what they do, other than to guess they attend Lang Lang concerts seeking a deep aesthetic experience. Nor have I judged them. You have fabricated all of this in your imagination. I am not an extension of your imagination. You are not capable of extrapolating my thinking to cases I haven't addressed. If you want to know what someone thinks on a subject they haven't addressed, I have found that asking them is usually a more productive strategy than passive-aggressively putting words in their mouths and assuming an injured air. You are the one being judgmental, and you are judging me for ideas only you have thought.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

EdwardBast said:


> I have expressed no opinion whatever on people in the audience. Nor have I expressed any opinion on what they do, other than to guess they attend Lang Lang concerts seeking a deep aesthetic experience. Nor have I judged them. You have fabricated all of this in your imagination. I am not an extension of your imagination. You are not capable of extrapolating my thinking to cases I haven't addressed. If you want to know what someone thinks on a subject they haven't addressed, I have found that asking them is usually a more productive strategy than passive-aggressively putting words in their mouths and assuming an injured air. You are the one being judgmental, and you are judging me for ideas only you have thought.


You've already called the entertainment they enjoy "crass." Should I ask, "Did you really mean 'crass?'" Earlier your attitude to them was - I would think you couldn't deny this - saturated with paternalism.

I didn't attribute those things to you out of nowhere. Those are your clearly-expressed attitudes, unless you're changing your mind.

"... passive-aggressively... assuming an injured air" - that is "ideas only you have thought." But I don't mind, I'm not vulnerable here. Think worse things if you can!

I wouldn't think you're vulnerable here either. It seems to me that your status in the world of music is deserved by virtue of something other than merely adopting the proper attitudes to your entertainment, so you're perfectly safe if that attitude is questioned. So relax a little.

You will be perfectly ok to say, "I don't like to go to concerts like that," or, "I don't like performances like that," or something like that. You don't have to admit any attitude to the audience. But as long as you choose not to say something like that, but to project your values onto the universe and speak for it, then, yes, you're judging the audience, and I can't agree with your attitude.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

science said:


> You've already called the entertainment they enjoy "crass." Should I ask, "Did you really mean 'crass?'" Earlier your attitude to them was - I would think you couldn't deny this - saturated with paternalism.
> 
> I didn't attribute those things to you out of nowhere. Those are your clearly-expressed attitudes, unless you're changing your mind.
> 
> ...


Well, since you are clearly able to carry on both sides of this discussion by yourself, I will leave you to it. Perhaps I'll check back a couple of days hence to find out what I think! And in case you are trying to discern my mood in writing this, I am having a lighthearted chuckle. You are a very funny man.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> You refuse to grasp an essential point: *No one cares about the watching*. For centuries pianists have been trained to refrain from emotional displays of this kind because it distracts from the music and places an undue emphasis on theatricality. Making such mugging the center of attention is crass in the extreme. Serious music students don't need to be taught this attitude. It is a cultural norm they pick up by osmosis or from their first teacher. There is nothing more I can say on this matter.


Full on agreement:
The music is not 'about the performer,' the performer is there to serve the music and the public with that music. 
Anything which distracts the audience from the music is massively disrespectful of both the music and the audience who have paid good money to hear it. You go out for fine dining and you really don't expect, or I think want, a circus side-show from your waiter.


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