# György Ligeti



## danae

*Ligeti anyone?*

Today I decided to listen to some pieces I hadn't listened to in a long time, and there he was, in the bottom of huge pile of CDs and scores, Ligeti. Right now I'm listening to his Chamber concerto for 13 instrumentalists and I realize: I like him even more than before.

Other important Ligeti suggestions:

-Melodien

-Piano concerto

-Atmospheres

-Lontano

-San Francisco Polyphony

-Musica Ricercata

-Etudes pour piano (3 volumes)

-both his String Quartets

-Lux Aeterna

-Apparitions

-Violin concerto


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## Guest

Ligeti - YES 

One of the really original voices of C20th music. I particularly like AVENTURES, NOUVELLES AVENTURES, and his extraordinary opera LE GRAND MACABRE.


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## Lisztfreak

I have heard some of his works, of which only Lux Aeterna and Bagatelles for Wind Quintet do I find good, all the rest is just too avant-gardish for me, so I can't stomach it at all.


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## PartisanRanger

I really like Ligeti. Lontano and Atmospheres are great. His requiem has some wonderfully different choral music as well.


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## Bach

Nonsense Madrigals are excellent!


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## Taneyev

Not me, thank you.


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## Tapkaara

Not sure I could really enjoy Ligeti as a stand alone experience, but his music is used to great effect in 2001: A Space Odyssey.


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## Mirror Image

I'm not a fan of Ligeti at all. There is one good thing his "music," if you want to call it that, is good for: getting rid of unwelcomed guests.


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## Guest

Here's a clip from LE GRAND MACABRE in the Fura Dels Baus production (2009)


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## Mirror Image

Reiner Torheit said:


> Here's a clip from LE GRAND MACABRE in the Fura Dels Baus production (2009)


That was absolutely terrible.


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## Scott Good

I just love Ligeti!

The piano etudes are some of my favorite piano compositions ever.

Here's #1,2,3


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## Guest

Hi Scott! Nice to bump into you here 

That's a really *excellent* Ligeti clip of the etudes


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## Weston

I don't usually go for avant-gardish compositions emotionally, but I do enjoy them a little intellectuallly if that makes any sense. Nevertheless I find his _Requiem for mezzo soprano, etc, etc_. to be one the most intense emotional experiences I can imagine.

I too like _Lontano_ which I believe was used in a Kubrick film as well. I forget which.


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## Guest

I've only seen _Mysteries of the Macabre_ performed live, and Ligeti was there in the audience.

I'd like to see a production of _Le Grand Macabre._ It's certainly a fascinating thing to listen to at home on CD.


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## Scott Good

Reiner Torheit said:


> Hi Scott! Nice to bump into you here
> 
> That's a really *excellent* Ligeti clip of the etudes


Hey Reiner!

T'is a small world on the net.

Yes, that recording is something else. It was the first I heard, so, have been unfairly biased ever since, although I do sometimes like the "go beyond the limits" approach a few have taken.

Like this one - he's going too fast for his ability, so the tempo is wonky, BUT, there is such intensity. It is an interpretation.






Glad to be chatting again.


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## Mirror Image

some guy said:


> I've only seen _Mysteries of the Macabre_ performed live, and Ligeti was there in the audience.
> 
> I'd like to see a production of _Le Grand Macabre._ It's certainly a fascinating thing to listen to at home on CD.


It's also good at scaring off unwanted guests.


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## Sid James

Like Tapkaara, I haven't heard much Ligeti other than in _2001: A Space Odyessy_. I'll have to get some of his music at some stage, as he was definitely one of the most significant composers of the C20th...


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## Air

To be honest, I actually don't mind Ligeti. He's one of my favorite composers of avant-garde music.... String Quartet No. 2, Atmospheres, and parts of Le Grand Macabre (though sickening to the stomach) are exceptional. Requiem is really out of this planet. That said, he's not someone I usually come back to every week.


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## Mirror Image

airad2 said:


> To be honest, I actually don't mind Ligeti. He's one of my favorite composers of avant-garde music.... String Quartet No. 2, Atmospheres, and parts of Le Grand Macabre (though sickening to the stomach) are exceptional. Requiem is really out of this planet. That said, he's not someone I usually come back to every week.


You have sunk to a new low, my friend.


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## Scott Good

airad2 said:


> That said, he's not someone I usually come back to every week.


This is ok. I don't think that his music is meant to be "plonk" - it is challenging, and rests are needed between listenings.

Have you listened to the piano etudes btw?


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## PartisanRanger

Mirror Image said:


> It's also good at scaring off unwanted guests.


Congrats on making the same joke twice.


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## Bach

I laughed both times.


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## danae

Tapkaara said:


> Not sure I could really enjoy Ligeti as a stand alone experience, but his music is used to great effect in 2001: A Space Odyssey.


I agree on the Space Odyssey. In all of his films Kubrick used the most effective music. 
I think you should try listening to some Ligeti as a "stand alone experience" as you say. He might surprise you. Try the Etudes for solo piano or the Chamber concerto.


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## Habib

He was one of the best composers of the last century. The sonorities in his music exposed the essence of sound. Everyone into classical should explore him beyond the Kubrick film.


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## Sid James

Reiner Torheit said:


> Wrong, it's *you* that has sunk to the very bottom, with your philistine judgemental bullying and thuggish behaviour on these forums...You are the Forum Bully.


Yeah, well he's basically against anything even slightly progressive, and I am somewhat puzzled by this, as Mirror Image has been otherwise a quite perceptive contributor to this forum. I too wish sometimes that he could be a bit more gentle and considerate regarding people who enjoy post WW2 music in particular...

I myself couldn't be without this music, as it enriches my understanding and perception of the music of earlier eras. It's worth exploring composers like Ligeti exactly for this reason. No-one should be put down for this, even if you don't agree, or do it yourself. It's not fair, really...


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## Dedrater

Atmospheres, Lux Aeterna, and the occasional film soundtrack are alright from time to time, but his piano etudes seem pretty directionless and unnecessary. He's hit and miss for me, but mostly miss.

Is it true that none of the string players in Atmospheres ever play the same note at the same time? It seems like pointless novelty, and the amount of players involved is overkill.


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## danae

Dedrater said:


> Is it true that none of the string players in Atmospheres ever play the same note at the same time? It seems like pointless novelty, and the amount of players involved is overkill.


I don't remember exactly the first pages of the score but the strings are all divisi (which means that every player has his/her own part), so the answer would probably be yes, that no 2 players play the same note at the same time, unless of course it happens by coincidence. 
As for this being pointless, the effect that you hear (micropolyphony) couldn't be accomplished with the use of a smaller orchestra, becuase timbre and volume is all that matters in this work. Also, if you look at other works by Ligeti, you 'll find that his instrumentation and his ensembles are always chosen carefully to serve his musical choices, of course sometimes more effectively than others.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> I'm not a fan of Ligeti at all. There is one good thing his "music," if you want to call it that, is good for: getting rid of unwelcomed guests.


If this post ended with its first sentence I wouldn't be able to resist applauding. But no, you had to say your piece, yet again.


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## andruini

I really admire Ligeti's music. I really like the concept of micropolyphony, and a teacher of mine once played us Atmospheres and showed a clip of a slowly changing color spectre, it's really fascinating how it sounds like a mess, but it's actually all really complex and calculated.. That being said, I did enjoy studying a couple of his scores in a class, and I still have a soft spot for the Chamber Concerto for 13 Instruments, the Requiem, Atmospheres, Lontano and Le Grand Macabre.. Only thing he did that I find completely lacking of any merit whatsoever is the Metronome thing.. Otherwise, yeah, I'm an admitted Ligeti fan.


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## Sid James

I've just acquired his _*Requiem*_ & it's a very haunting, powerful & richly dark work. The _*Aventures & Nouvelles Aventures*_ on the same disc are really quirky, humorous & wierd, they sound like bits of opera taken to an extreme (& out of context?). I'm looking forward to getting more Ligeti, as I have found these works to be quite engaging. I like his style, which was very individual & experimental...


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## Sid James

Here's an interesting quote I found by Ligeti talking about his _Poeme Symphonique for 100 metronomes_:

"At the end of the '50s and the beginning of the '60s came the happening movement from America. I was interested in an ambiguous way. I made some happenings--you know my piece for 100 metromonomes?--but I had the feeling I am not a happening person. You know the Fluxus group? I am not belonging there. After a time I had the feeling they take their job too seriously. And I am not serious like people like LaMonte Young and Geroge Brecht or even Cage. I will tell you exactly what is between me and these happening people. They believe that life is art and art is life. I appreciate very much Cage and many people, but my artistic credo is that art--every art--is not life. It is something artificial. And for me all the happenings are too dilletante. You see, I want, if I am the audience, to see a perfect music, or a perfect painting. I don't want to take part in it. I don't want that this fence between the piece and the audience be abolished. I don't want to get involved. It's the feeling of distance. I am not saying that my opinion is for everybody."

Quote from a 1974 interview at http://www.artnotart.com/fluxus/gligeti-comments01.html


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## Jaime77

My friend and I are composers, we set ourselves a task this week of writing roughly in the style of a composer in order to loosen up our ideas of approach to composition. For him I chose Morton Feldman and for me he chose Ligeti. Clocks and Clouds. Ligeti was a great composer and will be missed.


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## haydnguy

jaibyrne said:


> My friend and I are composers, we set ourselves a task this week of writing roughly in the style of a composer in order to loosen up our ideas of approach to composition. For him I chose Morton Feldman and for me he chose Ligeti. Clocks and Clouds. Ligeti was a great composer and will be missed.


Yes, he was and I agree with Ligeti in his quote that Andre posted.


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## Zeniyama

I had a disk of Ligeti's complete Etudes and Musica Ricercata which I really enjoyed. Other than that, one of my favourite works is the "Hungarian Rock".


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## Sid James

I've just acquainted myself with Ligeti recently. I've got 2 cd's of his music on Wergo - _Requiem, Aventures, Nouvelles Aventures, Chamber Concerto, Ramifications, Lux Aeterna & Atmospheres_. Listening to this music, I can't understand why Ligeti seems to be branded a "difficult" composer by some (conservative?) listeners. Sure, he has some 'out there' works like the _Aventures_, but apart from that, I think he is easier to listen to than some other C20th composers (eg. Varese, whose music I also love). Ligeti is by no means easy listening but he's not as difficult as he's reputed to be, IMO...


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## PartisanRanger

Andre said:


> I've just acquainted myself with Ligeti recently. I've got 2 cd's of his music on Wergo - _Requiem, Aventures, Nouvelles Aventures, Chamber Concerto, Ramifications, Lux Aeterna & Atmospheres_. Listening to this music, I can't understand why Ligeti seems to be branded a "difficult" composer by some (conservative?) listeners. Sure, he has some 'out there' works like the _Aventures_, but apart from that, I think he is easier to listen to than some other C20th composers (eg. Varese, whose music I also love). Ligeti is by no means easy listening but he's not as difficult as he's reputed to be, IMO...


It depends on the piece, I guess. His piano etudes are quite difficult to get into. Even now the 6th "Autumn in Warsaw" Etude is the only one I can enjoy.


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## StlukesguildOhio

At the end of the '50s and the beginning of the '60s came the happening movement from America. I was interested in an ambiguous way. I made some happenings--you know my piece for 100 metromonomes?--but I had the feeling I am not a happening person. You know the Fluxus group? I am not belonging there. After a time I had the feeling they take their job too seriously. And I am not serious like people like LaMonte Young and Geroge Brecht or even Cage. I will tell you exactly what is between me and these happening people. They believe that life is art and art is life. I appreciate very much Cage and many people, but my artistic credo is that art--every art--is not life. It is something artificial. And for me all the happenings are too dilletante. You see, I want, if I am the audience, to see a perfect music, or a perfect painting. I don't want to take part in it. I don't want that this fence between the piece and the audience be abolished. I don't want to get involved. It's the feeling of distance. I am not saying that my opinion is for everybody.

Intriguing quote. I actually have a CD of ligetti's "Mechanical Music" which I quite enjoy... except for the piece for the 100 metronomes. As Ligetti suggests the piece is something of a "happening"... an experimentation for the sake of experimentation... and as such it strikes me as a sad failure. The other works I quite like. They have a certain mathematical quality... in spite of or because of the use of the mechanical keyboards and the semi-random structures... that reminds me somewhat of Phillip Glass... of Bach... of Dufay...


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## Sid James

PartisanRanger said:


> It depends on the piece, I guess. His piano etudes are quite difficult to get into. Even now the 6th "Autumn in Warsaw" Etude is the only one I can enjoy.


I just heard Book 1 of Ligeti's _Etudes _for the first time yesterday. I bought the Idil Biret performance on Naxos, but I haven't heard Book 2 yet. I can hear some influences of Debussy & Bartok in this music, but it is all very individual. I agree they're not easy to listen to, but that's why I chose to only acquaint myself with Book 1 (3 times!), so as not to overload myself with this complex music. You also have to remember, that _Etudes_ by any composer are generally harder to listen to & digest than other types of solo piano works. At least, that's what I think. I actually enjoyed them quite a bit...


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## PartisanRanger

Andre said:


> I just heard Book 1 of Ligeti's _Etudes _for the first time yesterday. I bought the Idil Biret performance on Naxos, but I haven't heard Book 2 yet. I can hear some influences of Debussy & Bartok in this music, but it is all very individual. I agree they're not easy to listen to, but that's why I chose to only acquaint myself with Book 1 (3 times!), so as not to overload myself with this complex music. You also have to remember, that _Etudes_ by any composer are generally harder to listen to & digest than other types of solo piano works. At least, that's what I think. I actually enjoyed them quite a bit...


Which was your favorite? I'm only acquainted with Book 1, as well. All but the 6th have seemed fairly unlistenable to me up to this point but I'd like to give them another go.


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## Sid James

PartisanRanger said:


> Which was your favorite? I'm only acquainted with Book 1, as well. All but the 6th have seemed fairly unlistenable to me up to this point but I'd like to give them another go.


I just listened to_ Book 2_ last night for the first time. I think this music is amazing, not only for it's technical complexity, but also the colours, shapes & patterns Ligeti brings out of the instrument. Indeed, they are so complex, that I can imagine them being arranged for a large ensemble, like a string orchestra. You might argue that this might be bastardization, but if it was well done, it would be very interesting.

You ask about my favourites? Well I like both books, perhaps _Book 1_ seems more coherent as a single unit, but _Book 2_ is very engaging for me as well. In Book 1, I like the misty, hazy quality of _Cordes a vide_. _Touches blouquees _sounds something like a Bartokian folk melody has been put through a blender. His technique of presenting only snippets of the melody reminds me of the music of Elliot Carter. _Fanfares _reminds me of Schumann, but it's more episodic & intense. _Arc-en-ciel_ is also very seductive. & the finale of the descending scale in _Automne a Varsovie_ is just out of this world! Having only listened to _Book 2 _a few times, _Vertige_ really stands out. I like it's repetitive spiral structure.

As you might guess, I've become a fan of these works (& Ligeti in general). Maybe at some stage I will get another recording which also has _Book 3_. When Biret made this recording, Ligeti was in the process of composing Book 3, so she couldn't record it (he was still alive, it was made in 2001). I'd also like to hear more Etudes by other composers, I heard some on radio, but I've only got an excerpt from Debussy's great contribution to the genre. But Ligeti's set is unique, because in it, he kind of brings together all these differing strands of the genre to form something new & surprising. I think that these are masterpieces of the genre, no doubt...


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## danae

Although my own personal favorites are "Desorde" and "Touches bloquees", I'm currently studying "Fanfares", because the other two are virtually unplayable (by me at least). Sadly, I have found that "Fanfares" isn't much easier than the other two. You have to separate completely the two hemispheres of your brain in order to play it!


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## Scott Good

Andre said:


> I just listened to_ Book 2_ last night for the first time. I think this music is amazing, not only for it's technical complexity, but also the colours, shapes & patterns Ligeti brings out of the instrument. Indeed, they are so complex, that I can imagine them being arranged for a large ensemble, like a string orchestra. You might argue that this might be bastardization, but if it was well done, it would be very interesting.
> 
> You ask about my favourites? Well I like both books, perhaps _Book 1_ seems more coherent as a single unit, but _Book 2_ is very engaging for me as well. In Book 1, I like the misty, hazy quality of _Cordes a vide_. _Touches blouquees _sounds something like a Bartokian folk melody has been put through a blender. His technique of presenting only snippets of the melody reminds me of the music of Elliot Carter. _Fanfares _reminds me of Schumann, but it's more episodic & intense. _Arc-en-ciel_ is also very seductive. & the finale of the descending scale in _Automne a Varsovie_ is just out of this world! Having only listened to _Book 2 _a few times, _Vertige_ really stands out. I like it's repetitive spiral structure.
> 
> As you might guess, I've become a fan of these works (& Ligeti in general). Maybe at some stage I will get another recording which also has _Book 3_. When Biret made this recording, Ligeti was in the process of composing Book 3, so she couldn't record it (he was still alive, it was made in 2001). I'd also like to hear more Etudes by other composers, I heard some on radio, but I've only got an excerpt from Debussy's great contribution to the genre. But Ligeti's set is unique, because in it, he kind of brings together all these differing strands of the genre to form something new & surprising. I think that these are masterpieces of the genre, no doubt...


Andre, you write about music so eloquently. You should do reviews!

I agree with every word. These are some of my favorite piano pieces composed ever. The influences are vast, and he is quite open about it.

And...just because you mentioned it, I have been sketching out orchestrations for these works - for chamber orchestra - piles of percussion (including rarer instruments like almglocken, and lithophone + possibly belaphon and mbira +++), winds of all shapes and sizes, strings (but single parts), harp!

I hope to have book 1 done in about a year - fitting it between other projects. It will be terribly difficult to perform! Also rights issues to deal with. But this music calls me to do it, for the same reason it suggested it to you.


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## danae

Scott Good said:


> I hope to have book 1 done in about a year - fitting it between other projects. It will be terribly difficult to perform! Also rights issues to deal with. But this music calls me to do it, for the same reason it suggested it to you.


I've wanted to do the same thing, but I don't feel confident enough, or maybe I just don't have the patience. Have you finished any of these orchestrations? 'Cause if you have, I'd really like to look at the score, with your permission, of course. Don't worry I'm not gonna steal anything, not anything specific at least, just ideas!


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## Sid James

Your orchestration of the _Etudes_ sounds interesting, Scott Good. It's apt how you say they would (still) be difficult to perform, because Ligeti thought the same thing. A number of them, I have read, where composed solely for mechanical piano (does anyone know what this is exactly?).

I'm actually really getting into some of the C20th solo piano repertoire. I'm beginning to appreciate the unique colours and textures of this instrument. & Ligeti's _Etudes_ seem to be a pinnacle of the repertoire.

By the way, I don't think I'm that eloquent, it's just that I've read many music reviews & books, which I think help me to put into words what I feel about music that I enjoy. They kind of rub off on me. But I'm glad you enjoyed my impressions...


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## Scott Good

Andre said:


> Your orchestration of the _Etudes_ sounds interesting, Scott Good. It's apt how you say they would (still) be difficult to perform, because Ligeti thought the same thing. A number of them, I have read, where composed solely for mechanical piano (does anyone know what this is exactly?).


Perhaps he meant player piano.



Andre said:


> I'm actually really getting into some of the C20th solo piano repertoire. I'm beginning to appreciate the unique colours and textures of this instrument. & Ligeti's _Etudes_ seem to be a pinnacle of the repertoire.


For sure.

Have you heard Night Fantasies by Elliot Carter - amazing music. I also quite like Phrygian Gates by John Adams. Completely different sides of the coin.

Nono wrote some great music for piano as well. And Ginastera. And...and...

Hummm...I wonder what Sculthorpe does with a piano?



Andre said:


> By the way, I don't think I'm that eloquent, it's just that I've read many music reviews & books, which I think help me to put into words what I feel about music that I enjoy. They kind of rub off on me. But I'm glad you enjoyed my impressions...


For sure. But there is a genuine searching in the way you write that is open and caring.


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## danae

Scott Good said:


> Perhaps he meant player piano.


Yes, these works are for player piano. See also the works of Conlon Nuncarrow.


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## AussieGuy

I like the stuff Kubrick used in _'2001'_, but I am not familiar with anything else. There is so much music to listen to, and so little money with which to buy recordings or concert tickets. Alas, our local classical music radio station (ABC Classic FM) does not give much air time to Legiti. I will get to him some day I guess.


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## Vic

Hi AussieGuy,
If you would like to see some Ligeti performed really well without spending a lot, you could try the digital concert house of the Berliner Philhamoniker. Many of the concerts in the archive and many live ones coming up have Ligeti in their program. Individual concerts are just under 10 euros, which I think is great for what you get. You can also purchase individual pieces of the program, but you will see that the they are niecely paired up with other pieces.
Here is the link: http://dch.berliner-philharmoniker.de/


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## alfine

Hmmm Ligeti - I think he will have a come back but not at the mo...


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## Conor71

I listened to samples of this Composers work recently and was quite taken .
I am in the market for a recording of his work now - this seems pretty cool as it has all the works from 2001 + lots of other interesting stuff on it :










Info:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ligeti-Project-Box-Set/dp/B0016A8E1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263094366&sr=1-1


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## Bartók

Conor71 said:


> I listened to samples of this Composers work recently and was quite taken .
> I am in the market for a recording of his work now - this seems pretty cool as it has all the works from 2001 + lots of other interesting stuff on it :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Info:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ligeti-Project-Box-Set/dp/B0016A8E1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263094366&sr=1-1


I was just listening to this earlier today, and I highly recommend it. His vocal works are my favorite out of the set. You should listen to his requiem, its definitely in my top ten pieces ever written.


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## Sid James

I've now got a handful of discs from Ligeti, and I am eager for more.

Recently, I got the Parker Quartet on Naxos performing what (I think?) are the complete works for string quartet: the _Andante & Allegretto _(1950), _String Quartet No. 1_ (1952-53), _String Quartet No. 2 _(1968).

_*Andante & Allegretto *_is basically a tonal work which reminds one of Vaughan Williams & especially Kodaly. _*String Quartet No. 1 "Metamorphoses Nocturnes"*_ is my favourite. It is like one of those Baroque paintings which are aimed at tricking the observer into thinking that the painting is real. Ligeti peels back the facade of what is a conventional string quartet. He presents themes and then deconstructs and distorts them with ingenious changes in tempo, mood and timbre. This is most easy to recognise in the waltz movement. & in the finale it's all back-to-front, at first there's no theme in sight, he gradually builds up to one, and then presents a "false" ending, the real ending is eery and quiet. _*String Quartet No. 2*_ is also a masterpiece, further stretching the boundaries of what a string quartet is. It is full of colour and texture, and has a middle movement labelled "precise and mechanical," it's like a perpetuum mobile machine that goes haywire. I think this guy had a wicked sense of humour to write music like this. Highly recommended for all string quartet buffs out there...


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## PartisanRanger

Anyone notice the use of Ligeti's Lontano in Scorcese's latest film Shutter Island? Great use of music, it really fit the mood.


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## muxamed

I love Ligeti. There is a wonderful recording of his string quartets and duets by Arditti quartet on Sony. It is a great place to start.


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## thatperson

I have up to volume 3 of the ligeti project, and i want to get the others, but they're rented out at my music library. grrr.. gotta love ligeti


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## Sid James

Come to think of it, I think Ligeti was bigger than to be stuck in Hungary, regardless of the political climate when he left (Communism). I think he would have probably left anyway, the place was too provincial. Even if he ended up just over the border in Vienna, he was more connected there to the musical & artistic currents coming from the rest of Europe...


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## Conor71

Conor71 said:


> I listened to samples of this Composers work recently and was quite taken .
> I am in the market for a recording of his work now - this seems pretty cool as it has all the works from 2001 + lots of other interesting stuff on it :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Info:
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ligeti-Project-Box-Set/dp/B0016A8E1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1263094366&sr=1-1


I bought the Ligeti set a couple of months ago and have finally gotten around to listening to almost all of the material on it.
I really enjoyed this set and found the works on the set (mostly orchestral and vocal) easy to digest - I really like Ligeti's idiom .
Im not sure if I will be aquiring more works by Ligeti as this set covers my needs pretty well at the moment - I particularly enjoyed listening to the works from "2001" as this is also one of my favourite books and films .


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## Head_case

muxamed said:


> I love Ligeti. There is a wonderful recording of his string quartets and duets by Arditti quartet on Sony. It is a great place to start.


It's a splendid recording - the sinister agitations of his string quartets (Metamorphoses nocturnes) are eerily beautiful in their recording here. Still, the later (and cheaper) Parker Quartet version is strangely more satisfying for me! 

Ligeti's cello sonata is also worthwhile discovering. It is one of the outstanding 20th century solo cello pieces for me. Instead of the ubiquitous Matt Haimovitz version, I'm really liking the Mikolaj Patosz recording.


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## matsoljare

Qyörqy Liqeti.


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## jurianbai

Just get that Arditti CD. The composer is listed as avant gardist so I prepared for most bizzare outcome, but thanks to the Holy Creator, he did not outdone it! The first string quartet is surprisingly poetic, more minimalist/simplicy if I use my limited wording. The second one is yes a bit bizzare. I admire the Quartet who can interpreted this piece in virtuosity. Should be an interesting piece to have more than one interpreter.

the others pieces (ballads, duets etc.) is surprisingly tonal and minimal.


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## starthrower

I decided to resurrect this thread since I've been getting into Ligeti. I bought the Teldec box several months ago, but it was missing disc 4, so I still haven't heard the Requiem. After returning it, I decided to try the Clear Or Cloudy set on DG. I like this one a lot as it contains quite a bit of his chamber music including some pieces not included on the Teldec box. The Sonata for Solo Cello is one of my favorite pieces on the entire set. 

I find it unfortunate that some so called "music lovers" continue to make derogatory comments concerning the avant garde. My prescription for this type of reactionary attitude is a copy of Slonimsky's A Lexicon Of Musical Invective. Time and perspective reveals the smugness and silliness of this mindset.


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## mmsbls

I have heard some of Ligeti but relatively little (Atmospheres and the violin concerto). Modern music is still quite a challenge for me so what I heard was not to my liking. Many people speak quite highly of Ligeti (I have heard him, described as a modern day Mozart), so I would like to try again. Rather than just sample randomly I'd rather hear some suggestions of works that might be less daunting to someone with my experience. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## Air

mmsbls said:


> Many people speak quite highly of Ligeti (I have heard him, described as a modern day Mozart), so I would like to try again. Rather than just sample randomly I'd rather hear some suggestions of works that might be less daunting to someone with my experience.
> 
> Any suggestions?


I really love the three books of Études by Ligeti, and I think any fan of the solo piano repertoire probably would too. What I love is that these works show a creativity that go beyond the rules of post-WWII classical music and display a truly tremendous diversity in harmony and rhythm. Like Debussy and Chopin's etudes, they are highly evocative but never quite cross over to the side of being purely programmatic. Each etude is like a fresh new discovery that attempts to explore something new - an interesting technique perhaps, or maybe just a quirky rhythm or set of harmonies. The wonderful thing about Ligeti is that he never comes off as being pretentious, and there's always an attractive emotional component to his music as well as an intellectual one.


----------



## mmsbls

Air said:


> I really love the three books of Études by Ligeti, and I think any fan of the solo piano repertoire probably would too.


I listened to all three books once through, and I must say I was surprised. I certainly did not expect the pieces to be as approachable as I found them. Some were a bit too "abstract" for me, but most were quite interesting. I especially liked No. 9. Vertige. There is a sense of both rising and falling at the same time. Lovely.

Unfortunately, with all the TC top lists going on there is so much listening just to keep up. Actually it's not unfortunate. I love hearing the new pieces. But it doesn't afford much extra time to really absorb new works. I will certainly keep these etudes in mind and come back to them when I have time. Who knows? I might even feel like supporting them the next time they appear in the classical music project.

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## tdc

The Ligeti etudes have grown on me as well. They have a unique, creative and refreshing vibe I quite enjoy. He is a composer I will likely continue to look into.


----------



## Meaghan

mmsbls said:


> I have heard some of Ligeti but relatively little (Atmospheres and the violin concerto). Modern music is still quite a challenge for me so what I heard was not to my liking. Many people speak quite highly of Ligeti (I have heard him, described as a modern day Mozart), so I would like to try again. Rather than just sample randomly I'd rather hear some suggestions of works that might be less daunting to someone with my experience.
> 
> Any suggestions?


(Okay, I already said this on the "How do you guys get to know each other?" thread because that was where I first saw you asking for Ligeti, but--)
You should try the Six Bagatelles for woodwind quintet. They were the first Ligeti I encountered, and I liked them before I liked much modern music.


----------



## mmsbls

Meaghan said:


> You should try the Six Bagatelles for woodwind quintet. They were the first Ligeti I encountered, and I liked them before I liked much modern music.


I just listened to the Bagatelles. They're very approachable. The first is such fun, and the third has a lovely melody floating on top of a bubbly background. I actually listened to Atmospheres again just to see how I felt about it after hearing the Bagatelles. I couldn't finish it partly because there's a part that's physically uncomfortable to my ears. It's hard to believe the same person composed both works.

If someone had told me that I would find two Ligeti works that I liked this week, I would have been quite skeptical. More hope!

Thanks for your help.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I couldn't seem to find a thread here for my favourite composer (who just so happens to be György Ligeti) so instead of searching the archives I decided to make one instead.

Here we are. György Ligeti.










My favourite piece by Ligeti (that I have heard) is the Kammerkonzert. I have listened to it time and time again, and every time I hear it I notice something new and interesting that makes me wonder why I hadn't thought of that before. As I have studied the work in quite some detail, I understand the work pretty well and that adds to my enjoyment. :tiphat:


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## violadude

Very versatile composer. He composed in lots of different styles and tried out all the latest trends in music, I think my favorite pieces are the Violin and piano concertos, the piano etudes and clocks and clouds.


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## starthrower

There is a five page thread in the composer's guestbook if you're interested in reading the comments. I'm slowing getting familiar with the set pictured in my avatar.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

starthrower said:


> There is a five page thread in the composer's guestbook if you're interested in reading the comments. I'm slowing getting familiar with the set pictured in my avatar.


Ah well. Haha. Never mind!


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## Dodecaplex

Ignore this!


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey, that's a bit harsh. I was only pointing C of AG to the other thread for a reference, not to stunt his thread.


----------



## Dodecaplex

starthrower said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Hey, that's a bit harsh. I was only pointing C of AG to the other thread for a reference, not to stunt his thread.


"Ignore this post" is what I meant. Because I also pointed out the other thread to CAG, but didn't notice that you guys have already done so.


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## Air

When looking for some of Boulez's music, I accidentally came across this:






It surprised me that Ligeti wrote such advanced electro-acoustic music (of the kind our member "someguy" has been championing) all the way back in 1958!

Also, the visual "score" is fascinating.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Air said:


> When looking for some of Boulez's music, I accidentally came across this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It surprised me that Ligeti wrote such advanced electro-acoustic music (of the kind our member "someguy" has been championing) all the way back in 1958!
> 
> Also, the visual "score" is fascinating.


I as watching that piece I think on YouTube with the score. I can remember what it was called but it was very good. I liked it a lot.


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## Cygnenoir

It's called Artikulation. That piece/score is so cool! Ligeti was a musical comedian 
My favourite pieces are Clocks and clouds and Lux Aeterna, very calming and beautiful...


----------



## jalex

Air said:


> When looking for some of Boulez's music, I accidentally came across this:
> 
> It surprised me that Ligeti wrote such advanced electro-acoustic music (of the kind our member "someguy" has been championing) all the way back in 1958!
> 
> Also, the visual "score" is fascinating.


I first listened to that a few months ago at full volume with headphones on, and it was one of the most uncomfortable experiences of my life.


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## violadude

berghansson said:


> It's called Artikulation. That piece/score is so cool! Ligeti was a musical comedian
> My favourite pieces are Clocks and clouds and Lux Aeterna, very calming and beautiful...


Clocks and clouds is one of my favorite works by him, but I thought no one else knew it. 

Welcome to the Forum.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

berghansson said:


> It's called Artikulation. That piece/score is so cool! Ligeti was a musical comedian
> My favourite pieces are Clocks and clouds and Lux Aeterna, very calming and beautiful...


Thank you very much! I think Artikulation would have to be one if my favourite works by Ligeti along with Kammerkonzert, Le Grande Macabre, Continuum, Atmosphères etc. etc. etc.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

jalex said:


> I first listened to that a few months ago at full volume with headphones on, and it was one of the most uncomfortable experiences of my life.


Haha! Well maybe listen to it again with the headphones on _half_ volume!


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## neoshredder

Well I gave this composer a try. Couldn't get into his concertos. Way too much dissonance for my liking. Shostakovich is the farthest I can go with dissonance I guess. Just sounds like random notes being played.


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## starthrower

Try the Six Bagatelles For Wind Quintet, or 10 Pieces For Wind Quintet.

As for the rest of his output, it ain't gonna sound like baroque music.


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## neoshredder

Yeah I knew I was in for something really different. I was hoping for some consonance within the dissonance. But I'll give it repeated listenings to see if I can get into it. Maybe it's just not my type of music. Allan Holdsworth I know uses dissonance but he still makes it work as there is plenty of consonance as well.


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## starthrower

I happen to be a big fan of dissonance, so I guess I'm used to it. There are so many other modern composers you may find more enjoyable. I've been listening to some of the Finnish composers including Sallinen and Aho. Aho has a fantastic clarinet concerto you can listen to on YouTube. These composers along with Germany's Hans Werner Henze write tonal music that is colorful and adventurous.

But like I said, for Ligeti I would try his chamber works for winds.


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## violadude

@Neoshredder, also try Concert Romanesc, or Romanian Concerto. That one isn't very dissonant.

Musica Ricercata is not very dissonant either. There are plenty of consonances mixed in with dissonances in the violin concerto.

Clocks and Clouds is a very beautiful piece if you can get past the "no straight-foward melody" thing.


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## aleazk

Atmospheres... man, amazing. The first time that I listened this was in Kubrick's film (2001: A Space Odyssey; 1968, Kubrick-Clarke), I was shocked. The mood is so, but so, scary, but in a very profound way, not banal. The piece make you think in the mysteries of metaphysics, life and death, the universe and his vastness. Very appropriate for Kubrick's movie!. Also the Requiem, Lux Aeterna, etc. That Micropolyphony thing rocks! .


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## neoshredder

Yeah it fits scary and disturbing movies the best. I just find it hard to listen to for an hour.


----------



## frankentomato

I love his piano etudes and _Musica Ricerdata_, especially the first Musica Ricerdata, one of the coolest pieces ever written in my opinion.


----------



## Cygnenoir

The first movement of the Cello Sonata (Dialogo) is maybe the most emotional music he ever wrote. Such a beautiful melody but quite sad. He composed this piece in as early as 1948, before his avantgarde style. Together with Concerto Romanesc it is very "non-ligetic"


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## ksargent

I love Ligeti. I was introduced to him when I saw 2001 in the theater in the 60's. While ultra modern, his work has a beauty and accessibility that I find quite addictive.


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## ksargent

I'm in the process of acquiring the Ligeti Project (a steal on Amazon) and the 7 CD Ligeti Edition (4 to go). Great stuff - I've been listening to his string quartets lately and they are wonderful.


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## aleazk

The piano concerto is pure gold of modern music!!, definitely my favorite of him:











the rhythms in the third movement...man.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

aleazk said:


> The piano concerto is pure gold of modern music!!, definitely my favorite of him:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the rhythms in the third movement...man.


That is the best piano concerto of all time.


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## aleazk

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> That is the best piano concerto of all time.


ohh, what a surprise coming from a guy with a photo of Ligeti in his avatar...


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## Cnote11

Mmmm dissonance is so tasty.


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## starthrower

I have the Clear Or Cloudy set, and I'm embarrassed to admit I haven't listened to the piano concerto yet. So thanks to Aleazk, I'm listening now!


----------



## Pestouille

Hi,

I am quite ignorant concerning Ligeti, I have just Ligeti's works which I appreciate a lot. What would you recommend as works and also the best recordings of it according to you?


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^
You can't go wrong with either of the very affordable box sets on the Teldec (Ligetii Project 5 CD) or DG (Clear Or Cloudy 4 CD) labels. Many of the same works are covered in both sets, but Clear Or Cloudy contains more chamber music, and the Teldec set features the requiem not included on Clear or Cloudy.


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## Vaneyes

My favorites are Volumes 1 & 3 from the Sony series, and Volume 2 from the Teldec series.


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## Pestouille

Vaneyes said:


> My favorites are Volumes 1 & 3 from the Sony series, and Volume 2 from the Teldec series.


As said I have that Ligeti Works from Sony and these CDs are also my preferates, especially Aimard. I would like to avoid buying again a set of CDs, but being more targeted on my selections, any tip?


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## ksargent

Hello all,

I just bought the Teldec set and now have an extra Ligeti Project II which I will be happy to send to any interested forum member for the price of shipping. Message me if you are interested.


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## Vaneyes

Pestouille said:


> As said I have that Ligeti Works from Sony and these CDs are also my preferates, especially Aimard. I would like to avoid buying again a set of CDs, but being more targeted on my selections, any tip?


A couple of targets.

View attachment 3471
View attachment 3472


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## starthrower

Ligeti fans are saying the Chandos recording of the violin concerto is the best one yet. The Norgard concerto is excellent as well.


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## aleazk

aleazk said:


> The piano concerto is pure gold of modern music!!, definitely my favorite of him:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the rhythms in the third movement...man.


it's just me, or the second movement sounds like wolves in the forest in a dark night?


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## aleazk

wonderful etude, I love those Ligeti rhythms in the second part, oddly without dissonances in this case  (it's a "white key only" etude):


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## aleazk

And of course "Cordes à vide"...






the name of the piece is so well suited...


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## FrankieP

glisssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnndddddddddiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

http://www.mahlermahlermahler.blogspot.com/#!http://mahlermahlermahler.blogspot.com/2012/01/glissssandiiiiiiii.html


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## An Die Freude




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## aleazk

Alongside with Ravel's string quartet, this one's my favorite of all time too (Ligeti's first string quartet):


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## violadude

aleazk said:


> Alongside with Ravel's string quartet, this one's my favorite of all time too (Ligeti's first string quartet):


The transformations from that opening motif are just amazing in this piece.


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## aleazk

violadude said:


> The transformations from that opening motif are just amazing in this piece.


the sound in 3:27 is very interesting, I think one of the violins plays an initial note with pizzicato, while the other plays the theme, the two together sound very crazy, haha.


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## violadude

aleazk said:


> the sound in 3:27 is very interesting, I think one of the violins plays an initial note with pizzicato, while the other plays the theme, the two together sound very crazy, haha.


Oh ya, the pizzicatos are accenting the first note of the theme there.


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## aleazk

very crazy video, haha, (excerpts of Ligeti's "Volumina", for organ):


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## ksargent

Question: If one already owns the 5 CD Teldec set and the 9 CD Sony set, what is the rationale for picking up the DG Set (other than the fact that it is ridiculously cheap)? Performances?


----------



## Vaneyes

Brothers Gyorgy and Gabor in memory, Vienna.

View attachment 3894


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## Praeludium

Aleazk, this video is so amazing ! I want to begin to learn to play the organ so bad. And... it's a monk. Playing a gigantic terrifying cluster. So much coolness.


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## aleazk

I think this one is my favorite piano etude by Ligeti, No. 16, "Pour Irina":


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## aleazk

Interview!!!!!!!!!!!!!

György Ligeti 
interviewed by Benoît Delbecq 
Thanks to Frédéric Goaty at Jazz Magazine/Jazz'man for authorizing the translation and reproduction of this interview for DTM. 

This was the second time Benoît tried to interview Ligeti. After an initial failed attempt, Olivier Gasnier of the FNAC Montparnasse had called Benoît: "Ligeti is here! In my shop! You should come right now and ask him for the interview!" Ligeti had been browsing, and Gasnier showed him discs from Uganda and other regions of Africa. Benoît couldn't get away, but Gasnier gave Ligeti Rhymes by the Recyclers and told him to listen to "Brushes." The next day there was a fax from Ligeti's secretary: "Mr. Ligeti enjoyed your music and will be happy to do an interview with you next time he comes to Paris." 



Benoit took along the fine French jazz writer Stéphane Ollivier, who participated in the discussion, transcribed the tape, and edited the interview. The following translation is by Benoît Delbecq and Ethan Iverson. Ligeti spoke fluent English in addition to Hungarian, German, and French: it's too bad he can't look this over and double-check everything! However, Benoît and I believe the essence is correct. 

Originally published in Jazz Magazine number 484, France/Belgium/Switzerland/Québec, September 1998. At that time, the Jazz Magazine editor was Philippe Carles, who asked Benoît to interview Ligeti. 

Hotel Rivoli's lobby, Paris, February 1998. 

--- 

Benoît Delbecq: In the booklet of Pierre-Laurent Aimard's CD of the Etudes pour Piano (Sony Classics) you mention that both Thelonious Monk and Bill Evans have had a significant influence on you. 

György Ligeti: Indeed, in the sphere of jazz those musicians are truly my favorite. Their touch, their poetry. In jazz music there are great virtuosos like Oscar Peterson or Art Tatum, but it's something else. Do you like Peterson? 

BD: Er...I mean...what he plays now... 

GL: Yes, it's commerce ! 

BD: Nevertheless on the very topic of virtuosity... 

GL: It's impressive! Just like Albert Ammons or James P. Johnson, who worked on a sort of a – let's call it - poetry of the speed. Now, there is this disc where Chick Corea plays with Herbie Hancock. One finds there incredible polyrhythms with subtle offsets that, to my sense, are based on a perfect knowledge of both Latin American and African music. It's one of my favorite jazz discs. But, for me, the great poet-composer was Monk. As far as touch is concerned, Bill Evans is a sort of Michelangeli of jazz. Do you agree? 

BD: Absolutely! 

GL: Because you're the jazz pianist here! I have nothing to teach you. Monk doesn't have a flashy technique, neither does Duke Ellington, but nevertheless that's where the most beautiful music is. 

BD: Precisely! Back to this booklet, you express the idea that your piano music was born form a certain lack, or certain insufficiencies... 

GL: I started to study the piano way too late, after puberty. 

BD: You suggest a back and forth momentum in your way you compose: a swing between the sensation of the keyboard itself and the notes and sketches. Then the proper writing phase of composing begins. Is this related to an improvisational practice? 

GL: Naturally it has a relation to improvisation. Although I am not an improviser, not in jazz nor in “classical occidental” music! When I was a student in Budapest, I improvised a lot, but it had nothing to do with jazz. Anyway, jazz was forbidden in Hungary, first by Hitler, then by Stalin, as it represented the decadent American style. I used to improvise in a style that was influenced by Bartók. 

Today, when I compose – I'm talking about my piano works here, for when I write for other instruments, I don't use this method, which is specific to my own relation to the keyboard – I don't really improvise. I start from a few ideas, a few imaginings, and proceeding from their acoustical resonances I inevitably modify them. That's what I explain in the booklet: 

I lay my ten fingers on the keyboard and imagine music. My fingers copy this mental image as I press the keys, but this copy is very inexact: a feedback emerges between ideas and tactile/motor execution. This feedback loop repeats itself many times, enriched by provisional sketches: a mill wheel turns between my inner ear, my fingers and the marks on the paper. The result sounds completely different from my intial conceptions: the anatomical reality of my hands and the configuration of the piano keyboard have transformed my imaginary constructs. 

I need to feel my fingers on the keyboard, the resistance of the keys. I create and feel phrases, forms that are melodic and rhythmic at the same time. 

For certain pieces what interested me at first was not so much the music itself, but the procedure that would allow the number of voices in polyphony to augment – as for a certain number of musicians playing different types of xylophones, for instance. Again, from the booklet: 

The polyphonic collaboration of several musicians on the xylophone – in Uganda, in Central African Republic, Malawi and other places – as well as the playing of a single performer on lamellophone (mbira, likembe or sanza) in Zimbabwe, the Cameroon, and many other regions, led me to search for similar technical possibilities on the piano keys. 

First comes a primary figure, very simple. Then, with another musician, it becomes more dense, with slight offsets of the two forms on a regular pulsation basis. I imagined that it was similar to a continuous current that bifurcates, and decomposes itself in several other currents. When listening to those marvelous recordings, I was fascinated by a music that didn't have an initial melody, but in developing would create subterranean melodies: hidden, interior, always ambiguous. They appear, disappear, return. 

I tried to apply this to the piano, for instance in Study no. 10, "Der Zauberlehring." I play with two fingers, two repeated notes, F an G – it's totally organized but there are variations : it may be twice an F, twice a G, but with the hands superimposition F GG F G FF G, there is an integration of a certain irregularity. From this system, I add more keys – only white ones. Is this improvisation? I don't think so. 

BD: Still, there is the seeking for the creation of physical sensations. 

GL: Yes, I believe I have this in common with jazz musicians, this need to feel the resistance of the keys under the pulp of fingers, a certain sensual enjoyment... 

BD: I started to work on polyrhythms. I wasn't yet introduced to the music of the Aka pygmies, but I knew your music well, especially your music for harpsichord and Momentum/Selbstportrait. In 1987 I prepared the piano study “Fanfares.” To investigate the accentuation procedures, I prepared all the C, F and G# strings with bits of erasers (where the ostinato accents are), the goal being, by doing this, to be able to hear a timbre resulting of this asymmetrical figure, this aksak figure from the balkans.. 

GL: One cannot speak about aksak as far as African music is concerned, given the aksak from the Balkans is a little different: you don't hear the elementary pulse. The real aksak is in popular music from Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, where there are no rational relationships. In African music, one can always reduce to a pulse, to equal geometrical proportions. The results are sometimes similar, but the essence of the thinking is different. 

BD: I thought the term “aksak” could be applied to any wobbly rhythm, since that's what it means in Turkish. Anyway, the music I do today is definitely determined by methods of work I crafted and adjusted after discovering your music. 

GL: I also discovered African music quite late. In 1985, when I wrote the Etudes, I already had a good knowledge of those traditions. But, in 1982, for the Horn Trio, I used the same kind of ostinato: Even then I knew all this in a non-perfect way, through the folkloric or commercial musics from Brazil, Cuba or Puerto Rico. Samba, especially, I liked a lot, without knowing Africa at all. Nevertheless one could find in this piece all the elements I was going to develop further. 

Even before, in 1968, I wrote “Continuum,” which works on the idea of great speed and abstracting an elementary pulse. The varied rhythmic figures are fast and short, and inside them, hidden rhythms and melodies appear by chance. I discovered this intuitively: it was not at all based on a precise knowledge of African or Latin American music. 

BD: Do you know Evan Parker's music? He does extremely virtuoso work on the soprano saxophone based on circular breathing. He has been working for more than 30 years on a global idea of slow and mysterious momentums, with fast multiphonical issues that give birth to the very “interior melodies” you mention... 

GL: Is his research inspired by an interest in African musics ? 

BD: I don't have the answer to your question, but his field of experimentation seems to be close to what you just defined. 

GL: I will be very interested to listen to his music. One can find this kind of phenomenon in gamelan music, or in pygmy music. 

BD: What place do you grant to jazz in 20th century's history ? 

GL: A major place. Maybe the principal one! The music from the “Sonata form” tradition, the big symphonic enterprises: all of this belongs to the German tradition, which was the strongest tradition in the 19th century. But even then, Paris was a cultural capital. Of course, Debussy had undertaken a decisive revolution in the beginning of the 20th century. 

But jazz arrived (and, before it, ragtime, Scott Joplin) and imposed a combination of influences – it is not African, nor Irish nor French, not even American – it's everything all together, the first musical expression to be multicultural. 

Shortly after there is a popular dimension in jazz, notably with Armstrong. I find this very interesting because it is spontaneously creative, distant to today's commercial phenomenons that are designing popular culture. At the turn of the 30's, jazz was a unique and spontaneous explosion, the most beautiful stylistic expression of the century. 

I don't know if it is still possible that an art of this importance can continue to develop because marketing now instantly grabs new musical forms from the street. This said, musicians like Miles Davis or John Coltrane invented magnificent musics. Though not always – was Coltrane already dead when Miles Davis recorded with synthesizers? I don't fancy much this period of his. Like a lot of people I love Kind of Blue and Filles de Kilimanjaro. 

BD: In the closing chapter of his Theory of Harmony, Arnold Schoenberg speculates on the directions to come in music and declares that one of the major evolution axis will likely consist in having voices moving in a more and more independent autonomous way. In the history of jazz, a musician like Ornette Coleman has put this intuition into practice for more than 30 years with his harmolodic idea – in that the tangle of the melodies are creating the harmony, always fleeting and spontaneous... 

GL: These are phenomenons one finds in Pygmy chants. Each moment is random but the whole that results from it has nothing to do with random. This voice independence is not new, it has existed in France in the 14th century, in Guillaume de Machaut's music. This tradition has been killed by the homophonic thinking that had its apotheosis during the 19th century. Maybe Coleman connects with this tradition in his own way? 

Free jazz, which Coleman is associated with, has cut itself from the idea of regular pulsation. I don't say it's bad: I wrote numerous pieces without pulsation and the current I belonged to together with Pierre Boulez was even anti-pulsation! But jazz first was of a music of march, then of dance, that slowly opened up to polyrhythmics – in my opinion, due to the influence of Latin American traditions. Free jazz then dissolved the pulsation by superimposing independent melodic lines that have independent rhythm structures. Is it still jazz? It speaks a jazz language but the pulsation that was specific to jazz has disappeared. That said, it doesn't stop it being magnificent music, but it's not what I prefer the most. 

BD: Nevertheless you often speak metaphorically about your music, using the image of a body that has an organic way to develop. 

GL: Just like free jazz, indeed. 

BD: That's what I wanted to hear from you! I play a lot of improvised musics that have no thematics, I had the good fortune to play with great fathers of this “improvised music” scene, like Evan Parker, and I really have the sensation of a living organism that humanly evolves in the relation to sound. 

It is often that the contemporary music world, notably Boulez, refuses to take in consideration all those practices when he speaks about jazz - he continues to talk about the image of an oversimple music that's tightened to 4/4, chord changes in loops... 

GL: Boulez is a great musician but he doesn't like jazz, one knows that. 

BD: Boulez is a bit different: it's like he's ignoring a whole artistic vein. More generally, free jazz continues to be denied, or at least be considered as the garbage can of jazz. 

GL: A very beautiful garbage can! What interests me in music, whatever it is, is its elegance, and a certain humility. It's rare, but one can find this in any kind of music.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

aleazk said:


> Interview!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> György Ligeti
> interviewed by Benoît Delbecq
> Thanks to Frédéric Goaty at Jazz Magazine/Jazz'man for authorizing the translation and reproduction of this interview for DTM.
> 
> This was the second time Benoît tried to interview Ligeti. After an initial failed attempt, Olivier Gasnier of the FNAC Montparnasse had called Benoît: "Ligeti is here! In my shop! You should come right now and ask him for the interview!" Ligeti had been browsing, and Gasnier showed him discs from Uganda and other regions of Africa. Benoît couldn't get away, but Gasnier gave Ligeti Rhymes by the Recyclers and told him to listen to "Brushes." The next day there was a fax from Ligeti's secretary: "Mr. Ligeti enjoyed your music and will be happy to do an interview with you next time he comes to Paris."
> 
> Benoit took along the fine French jazz writer Stéphane Ollivier, who participated in the discussion, transcribed the tape, and edited the interview. The following translation is by Benoît Delbecq and Ethan Iverson. Ligeti spoke fluent English in addition to Hungarian, German, and French: it's too bad he can't look this over and double-check everything! However, Benoît and I believe the essence is correct.
> 
> Originally published in Jazz Magazine number 484, France/Belgium/Switzerland/Québec, September 1998. At that time, the Jazz Magazine editor was Philippe Carles, who asked Benoît to interview Ligeti.
> 
> Hotel Rivoli's lobby, Paris, February 1998.
> 
> ---
> 
> Benoît Delbecq: In the booklet of Pierre-Laurent Aimard's CD of the Etudes pour Piano (Sony Classics) you mention that both Thelonious Monk and Bill Evans have had a significant influence on you.
> 
> György Ligeti: Indeed, in the sphere of jazz those musicians are truly my favorite. Their touch, their poetry. In jazz music there are great virtuosos like Oscar Peterson or Art Tatum, but it's something else. Do you like Peterson?
> 
> BD: Er...I mean...what he plays now...
> 
> GL: Yes, it's commerce !
> 
> BD: Nevertheless on the very topic of virtuosity...
> 
> GL: It's impressive! Just like Albert Ammons or James P. Johnson, who worked on a sort of a - let's call it - poetry of the speed. Now, there is this disc where Chick Corea plays with Herbie Hancock. One finds there incredible polyrhythms with subtle offsets that, to my sense, are based on a perfect knowledge of both Latin American and African music. It's one of my favorite jazz discs. But, for me, the great poet-composer was Monk. As far as touch is concerned, Bill Evans is a sort of Michelangeli of jazz. Do you agree?
> 
> BD: Absolutely!
> 
> GL: Because you're the jazz pianist here! I have nothing to teach you. Monk doesn't have a flashy technique, neither does Duke Ellington, but nevertheless that's where the most beautiful music is.
> 
> BD: Precisely! Back to this booklet, you express the idea that your piano music was born form a certain lack, or certain insufficiencies...
> 
> GL: I started to study the piano way too late, after puberty.
> 
> BD: You suggest a back and forth momentum in your way you compose: a swing between the sensation of the keyboard itself and the notes and sketches. Then the proper writing phase of composing begins. Is this related to an improvisational practice?
> 
> GL: Naturally it has a relation to improvisation. Although I am not an improviser, not in jazz nor in "classical occidental" music! When I was a student in Budapest, I improvised a lot, but it had nothing to do with jazz. Anyway, jazz was forbidden in Hungary, first by Hitler, then by Stalin, as it represented the decadent American style. I used to improvise in a style that was influenced by Bartók.
> 
> Today, when I compose - I'm talking about my piano works here, for when I write for other instruments, I don't use this method, which is specific to my own relation to the keyboard - I don't really improvise. I start from a few ideas, a few imaginings, and proceeding from their acoustical resonances I inevitably modify them. That's what I explain in the booklet:
> 
> I lay my ten fingers on the keyboard and imagine music. My fingers copy this mental image as I press the keys, but this copy is very inexact: a feedback emerges between ideas and tactile/motor execution. This feedback loop repeats itself many times, enriched by provisional sketches: a mill wheel turns between my inner ear, my fingers and the marks on the paper. The result sounds completely different from my intial conceptions: the anatomical reality of my hands and the configuration of the piano keyboard have transformed my imaginary constructs.
> 
> I need to feel my fingers on the keyboard, the resistance of the keys. I create and feel phrases, forms that are melodic and rhythmic at the same time.
> 
> For certain pieces what interested me at first was not so much the music itself, but the procedure that would allow the number of voices in polyphony to augment - as for a certain number of musicians playing different types of xylophones, for instance. Again, from the booklet:
> 
> The polyphonic collaboration of several musicians on the xylophone - in Uganda, in Central African Republic, Malawi and other places - as well as the playing of a single performer on lamellophone (mbira, likembe or sanza) in Zimbabwe, the Cameroon, and many other regions, led me to search for similar technical possibilities on the piano keys.
> 
> First comes a primary figure, very simple. Then, with another musician, it becomes more dense, with slight offsets of the two forms on a regular pulsation basis. I imagined that it was similar to a continuous current that bifurcates, and decomposes itself in several other currents. When listening to those marvelous recordings, I was fascinated by a music that didn't have an initial melody, but in developing would create subterranean melodies: hidden, interior, always ambiguous. They appear, disappear, return.
> 
> I tried to apply this to the piano, for instance in Study no. 10, "Der Zauberlehring." I play with two fingers, two repeated notes, F an G - it's totally organized but there are variations : it may be twice an F, twice a G, but with the hands superimposition F GG F G FF G, there is an integration of a certain irregularity. From this system, I add more keys - only white ones. Is this improvisation? I don't think so.
> 
> BD: Still, there is the seeking for the creation of physical sensations.
> 
> GL: Yes, I believe I have this in common with jazz musicians, this need to feel the resistance of the keys under the pulp of fingers, a certain sensual enjoyment...
> 
> BD: I started to work on polyrhythms. I wasn't yet introduced to the music of the Aka pygmies, but I knew your music well, especially your music for harpsichord and Momentum/Selbstportrait. In 1987 I prepared the piano study "Fanfares." To investigate the accentuation procedures, I prepared all the C, F and G# strings with bits of erasers (where the ostinato accents are), the goal being, by doing this, to be able to hear a timbre resulting of this asymmetrical figure, this aksak figure from the balkans..
> 
> GL: One cannot speak about aksak as far as African music is concerned, given the aksak from the Balkans is a little different: you don't hear the elementary pulse. The real aksak is in popular music from Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, where there are no rational relationships. In African music, one can always reduce to a pulse, to equal geometrical proportions. The results are sometimes similar, but the essence of the thinking is different.
> 
> BD: I thought the term "aksak" could be applied to any wobbly rhythm, since that's what it means in Turkish. Anyway, the music I do today is definitely determined by methods of work I crafted and adjusted after discovering your music.
> 
> GL: I also discovered African music quite late. In 1985, when I wrote the Etudes, I already had a good knowledge of those traditions. But, in 1982, for the Horn Trio, I used the same kind of ostinato: Even then I knew all this in a non-perfect way, through the folkloric or commercial musics from Brazil, Cuba or Puerto Rico. Samba, especially, I liked a lot, without knowing Africa at all. Nevertheless one could find in this piece all the elements I was going to develop further.
> 
> Even before, in 1968, I wrote "Continuum," which works on the idea of great speed and abstracting an elementary pulse. The varied rhythmic figures are fast and short, and inside them, hidden rhythms and melodies appear by chance. I discovered this intuitively: it was not at all based on a precise knowledge of African or Latin American music.
> 
> BD: Do you know Evan Parker's music? He does extremely virtuoso work on the soprano saxophone based on circular breathing. He has been working for more than 30 years on a global idea of slow and mysterious momentums, with fast multiphonical issues that give birth to the very "interior melodies" you mention...
> 
> GL: Is his research inspired by an interest in African musics ?
> 
> BD: I don't have the answer to your question, but his field of experimentation seems to be close to what you just defined.
> 
> GL: I will be very interested to listen to his music. One can find this kind of phenomenon in gamelan music, or in pygmy music.
> 
> BD: What place do you grant to jazz in 20th century's history ?
> 
> GL: A major place. Maybe the principal one! The music from the "Sonata form" tradition, the big symphonic enterprises: all of this belongs to the German tradition, which was the strongest tradition in the 19th century. But even then, Paris was a cultural capital. Of course, Debussy had undertaken a decisive revolution in the beginning of the 20th century.
> 
> But jazz arrived (and, before it, ragtime, Scott Joplin) and imposed a combination of influences - it is not African, nor Irish nor French, not even American - it's everything all together, the first musical expression to be multicultural.
> 
> Shortly after there is a popular dimension in jazz, notably with Armstrong. I find this very interesting because it is spontaneously creative, distant to today's commercial phenomenons that are designing popular culture. At the turn of the 30's, jazz was a unique and spontaneous explosion, the most beautiful stylistic expression of the century.
> 
> I don't know if it is still possible that an art of this importance can continue to develop because marketing now instantly grabs new musical forms from the street. This said, musicians like Miles Davis or John Coltrane invented magnificent musics. Though not always - was Coltrane already dead when Miles Davis recorded with synthesizers? I don't fancy much this period of his. Like a lot of people I love Kind of Blue and Filles de Kilimanjaro.
> 
> BD: In the closing chapter of his Theory of Harmony, Arnold Schoenberg speculates on the directions to come in music and declares that one of the major evolution axis will likely consist in having voices moving in a more and more independent autonomous way. In the history of jazz, a musician like Ornette Coleman has put this intuition into practice for more than 30 years with his harmolodic idea - in that the tangle of the melodies are creating the harmony, always fleeting and spontaneous...
> 
> GL: These are phenomenons one finds in Pygmy chants. Each moment is random but the whole that results from it has nothing to do with random. This voice independence is not new, it has existed in France in the 14th century, in Guillaume de Machaut's music. This tradition has been killed by the homophonic thinking that had its apotheosis during the 19th century. Maybe Coleman connects with this tradition in his own way?
> 
> Free jazz, which Coleman is associated with, has cut itself from the idea of regular pulsation. I don't say it's bad: I wrote numerous pieces without pulsation and the current I belonged to together with Pierre Boulez was even anti-pulsation! But jazz first was of a music of march, then of dance, that slowly opened up to polyrhythmics - in my opinion, due to the influence of Latin American traditions. Free jazz then dissolved the pulsation by superimposing independent melodic lines that have independent rhythm structures. Is it still jazz? It speaks a jazz language but the pulsation that was specific to jazz has disappeared. That said, it doesn't stop it being magnificent music, but it's not what I prefer the most.
> 
> BD: Nevertheless you often speak metaphorically about your music, using the image of a body that has an organic way to develop.
> 
> GL: Just like free jazz, indeed.
> 
> BD: That's what I wanted to hear from you! I play a lot of improvised musics that have no thematics, I had the good fortune to play with great fathers of this "improvised music" scene, like Evan Parker, and I really have the sensation of a living organism that humanly evolves in the relation to sound.
> 
> It is often that the contemporary music world, notably Boulez, refuses to take in consideration all those practices when he speaks about jazz - he continues to talk about the image of an oversimple music that's tightened to 4/4, chord changes in loops...
> 
> GL: Boulez is a great musician but he doesn't like jazz, one knows that.
> 
> BD: Boulez is a bit different: it's like he's ignoring a whole artistic vein. More generally, free jazz continues to be denied, or at least be considered as the garbage can of jazz.
> 
> GL: A very beautiful garbage can! What interests me in music, whatever it is, is its elegance, and a certain humility. It's rare, but one can find this in any kind of music.


Go put that in the "articles" subforum.


----------



## Praeludium

Thanks for this, that's great !
I wish Ligeti had written something from guitar. After all he listened to a lot of styles where guitar has a role. Tant pis !


----------



## dlopezde

I just learned about this guy from a guy I know at my college who's looking into composing (myself as well). He showed me one of Ligeti's piano etudes, and it struck a chord in me. Thankfully, the guy lent me the copy of the etudes, and I hope to play through them to get some ideas of poly-tonality and poly-rhythms.


----------



## Cnote11

neoshredder said:


> Well I gave this composer a try. Couldn't get into his concertos. Way too much dissonance for my liking. Shostakovich is the farthest I can go with dissonance I guess. Just sounds like random notes being played.


You think Shostakovich is dissonant?  Which pieces are you referring to?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Cnote11 said:


> You think Shostakovich is dissonant?  Which pieces are you referring to?


I think _Corelli_ is dissonant.


----------



## Cnote11

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I think _Corelli_ is dissonant.


Yes, overly so.


----------



## neoshredder

A better term would be melodic. I think 20th century music is less melodic. Especially the second half of the century. So because of that, I find 20th century music harder to get into. Plus no harpsichord for the most part. Schnittke being one of the exceptions but didn't use it a bunch.


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## starthrower

There are a number of 20th century composers who have employed the harpsichord. Elliott Carter wrote a double concerto for piano and harpsichord. Poulenc composed a concerto for harpsichord. Dutilleux uses it in his 2nd symphony. And yes, Schnittke uses just about everything which makes his music an exhilarating listen.


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## neoshredder

Nonetheless, the big names of the 20th Century don't use it. Bartok, Ravel, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Ligeti, and etc. Debussy is probably my favorite as he brings out the melodic stuff. Even if it is unusual. It is very memorable due to being melodic. But yeah it looks like I'll need to step outside the box to find what I'm looking fof in 20th century music. I respect the era but it isn't the kind of sound I'm looking for. Too jazzy. But yeah I'll give those pieces a try.


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## starthrower

I recommend Poulenc's music. It's very melodic and highly enjoyable. His concerto for organ and timpani is also a great work. Try the 2 disc set on Decca. 
http://www.amazon.com/Poulenc-Conce...=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1332783856&sr=1-2


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## neoshredder

Alright I will order that along with Debussy's Orchestral Works by Martinon.


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## starthrower

I have Ravel set by Martinon. Since you are a big fan of more traditional classical styles, you might want to try out some Hindemith. Here's a great set I picked up. http://www.amazon.com/Hindemith-Kam...=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1332784938&sr=1-2


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## aleazk

neoshredder said:


> A better term would be melodic. I think 20th century music is less melodic. Especially the second half of the century. So because of that, I find 20th century music harder to get into. Plus no harpsichord for the most part. Schnittke being one of the exceptions but didn't use it a bunch.


Why you just don't listen to the music itself?. Melody is part of music, not _the_ music. Try to listen to other aspects, try to feel sensations, try to see images, music can do all this without a "melody". Personally, that's the kind of things that I look in music. If there are melodies, instrumentations, "dissonant" or not, etc, that's secondary sometimes for me. I'm only saying that there is no need to over classify things, just listen and give the pieces several chances.


----------



## neoshredder

aleazk said:


> Why you just don't listen to the music itself?. Melody is part of music, not _the_ music. Try to listen to other aspects, try to feel sensations, try to see images, music can do all this without a "melody". Personally, that's the kind of things that I look in music. If there are melodies, instrumentations, "dissonant" or not, etc, that's secondary sometimes for me. I'm only saying that there is no need to over classify things, just listen and give the pieces several chances.


I like Chopin and Debussy. Where do I go next in finding 20th century music that brings these kind of images. More love than war.


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## neoshredder

Disregard my comments as just me being a picky listener wanting instant satisfaction. I'll have to learn to be a more patient listener.


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## starthrower

Ligeti gives me instant satisfaction!


----------



## neoshredder

starthrower said:


> Ligeti gives me instant satisfaction!


We are all different.


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## Cnote11

I wouldn't call Jazz less melodic, but that is just me. Some of those names to me, Bartok and Ravel especially, have a lot of melody in some of their pieces. I agree that the harpsichord is a wonderful instrument. I was going to suggest Poulenc but you could also check out de Falla who wrote a concerto for it. What do you think of Satie, neoshredder? Oh, and I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in here by Ligeti wrote for the harpsichord as well.


----------



## Moira

So, this is my little history with Ligeti, a composer who is completely new to me - only discovered him at the beginning of the year as this little commentary makes clear.

http://www.artlink.co.za/news_article.htm?contentID=30138

I think it's a new infatuation. My heart is even beating faster.


----------



## violadude

Moira said:


> So, this is my little history with Ligeti, a composer who is completely new to me - only discovered him at the beginning of the year as this little commentary makes clear.
> 
> http://www.artlink.co.za/news_article.htm?contentID=30138
> 
> I think it's a new infatuation. My heart is even beating faster.


Awesome, Moria. Those were the first two Ligeti CDs I ever bought as well.


----------



## aleazk

Let us celebrate his 89 birthday with this wonderful interview!. The interview is pretty interesting since dates from 2000 or 2001, so it must be one of his last interviews!. He talks of almost everything (in english!).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/johntusainterview/ligeti_transcript.shtml


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## aleazk

I feel honoured, thanks for the dedicated thread. You people have a terrific taste for music.


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## neoshredder

Who is this Ligeti troll?


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## myaskovsky2002

Ligeti was my very favourite for a whole month! 



Martin, unfaithful


----------



## Renaissance

I find Ligeti hard to understand at first, but if you give him a try, he can prove himself very spectacular. His string quartets and Musica Ricercata are among my favorites.


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## myaskovsky2002

Fantastic! Amazing! A genious!






Martin


----------



## DeepR

Well, it seems that's the first Ligeti piece I kind of ... like! 
(some of his other piano pieces I've listened to disgusted me)


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

DeepR said:


> Well, it seems that's the first Ligeti piece I kind of ... like!
> (some of his other piano pieces I've listened to disgusted me)


Have you heard Musica Ricercata?


----------



## Llyranor

How do people find his Requiem? I'm listening to it right now, and I think I'm enjoying the experience. It seems more approachable than some of the other pieces I've heard from him. I liked some part of his violin concerto, but overall it didn't warm up to me that much (upon one listen, anyway).


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## Lisztian

^I LOVE the first half of the requiem. The rest isn't comprehensible for my ears yet - but i'm working on that!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Lisztian said:


> ^I LOVE the first half of the requiem. The rest isn't comprehendable for my ears yet - but i'm working on that!


I am glad you LOVE it! I LOVE it too.


----------



## myaskovsky2002

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Have you heard Musica Ricercata?


Yes and it is awesome.

Martin


----------



## myaskovsky2002

starthrower said:


> I recommend Poulenc's music. It's very melodic and highly enjoyable. His concerto for organ and timpani is also a great work. Try the 2 disc set on Decca.
> http://www.amazon.com/Poulenc-Conce...=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1332783856&sr=1-2


No"...................


----------



## myaskovsky2002

Renaissance said:


> I find Ligeti hard to understand at first, but if you give him a try, he can prove himself very spectacular. His string quartets and Musica Ricercata are among my favorites.


I consider this quartet as the 7th quartet of Bartok


----------



## Renaissance

Ligeti's earliest works are often considered an extension of the musical language of Bartok. His String Quartets No.1 & 2 are very much in the vein of Bartok's, the same story with the Musica Ricercata and even some of his etudes draw from a diverse range of sources, including Bartok amoung others. And I don't find this surprising at all because both Ligeti and Bartok were transylvanians, so they had something in common.  (with me lol)


----------



## starthrower

myaskovsky2002 said:


> I consider this quartet as the 7th quartet of Bartok


NO!  It is brilliant music, regardless!


----------



## myaskovsky2002

starthrower said:


> NO!  It is brilliant music, regardless!


Renaissance thinks like me.

Martin


----------



## Toddlertoddy

Renaissance said:


> I find Ligeti hard to understand at first, but if you give him a try, he can prove himself very spectacular. His string quartets and Musica Ricercata are among my favorites.


At 1:33, I think that the quartet was really Bartok's 7th string quartet that was lost, but was found by Ligeti later and he decided to call it his.


----------



## BurningDesire

Ligeti is a composer I admire for his talent using very different techniques to make beautiful music, an incredible imagination for sound, and a beautiful sense of humor comparable to that of Haydn, Satie, and Zappa. Listening to his early tonal/modal pieces, even if it was a style that didn't interest him as much, he still was able to compose music with beautiful harmonies and cute gestures, and I think had he wanted to, he could have been just as great a more traditional (diatonic/tonal) composer as he did a modernist. My favorite Ligeti pieces would probably be Lontano, Musica Ricercata, the Hamburg Concerto, the Sonata for solo viola, Hungarian Rock, the bits of La Grande Macabre I have heard, and the Poeme Symphonique for 100 Metronomes. That quartet that was posted is also amazing. I still need to hear alot by Ligeti, only own 3 CDs of his work ^^;

Did he ever do any ballets? I really love ballets :3


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

No ballets. But check this out (the closest thing to a ballet he did, really an _anti-opera_ like Kagel's _State Theatre_)


----------



## neoshredder

I think I've heard of this guy. I heard he's pretty good.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> I think I've heard of this guy. I heard he's pretty good.


Kagel? Yeah I've heard he's pretty good too.


----------



## aleazk

The free (but legal) score of the Hamburg Concerto!!:

http://www.schott-music.com/shop/resources/perusal_score_files/165679/MDS_165679.pdf


----------



## aleazk

Nobody is interested in the Hamburg Concerto?


----------



## Toddlertoddy

They should have every single copyrighted score has a "perusal score". Especially Bartok, who is copyrighted in the US and public domain in Canada, but IMSLP blocked him because they want to avoid trouble.


----------



## aleazk

The interesting documentary 'Portrait' has been deleted from youtube. Here's another online source:

http://www.ubu.com/film/ligeti_follin.html


----------



## aleazk

Since _György Ligeti_ (1923-2006) is quite mentioned recently, I thought that it would be interesting to have *a list with all his pieces and corresponding youtube videos*, for those who are interested in his works, but they don't know where to start.
I will make the list in chronological order, mentioning the different styles and 'phases' of his compositions.

*Early pieces, Bartok and modes*(1950-1960):
-Due capricci (1947) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_capricci_(Ligeti))




-Baladă şi joc (Ballad and Dance), for two violins (1950) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baladă_şi_joc)




-Concert românesc (1951)




-Sonata for Solo Cello (1948/1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_for_Solo_Cello_(Ligeti))




-Musica ricercata (1951-1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)




 (the rest of the pieces will appear in the 'related videos' section of youtube)
-Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet (1953) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)




-Andante and Allegretto, for string quartet (1950)




-String Quartet No. 1 Métamorphoses nocturnes (1953-54) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._1_(Ligeti))




-Chromatische Phantasie (1956)




*Towards micropolyphony, humour, electronic, colour* (1960-1980):
-Apparitions (1958-59)




-Electronic music: Glissandi (1957), Artikulation (1958)




-Atmosphères (1961) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphères)




-Volumina (1961-62, revised 1966)




-Poème Symphonique, for 100 metronomes (1962) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poème_Symphonique)




-Aventures (1962)




-Nouvelles Aventures (1962-65)




-Requiem (1963-65)




-Cello Concerto (1966)




-Lux Aeterna (1966) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux_Aeterna_(György_Ligeti))




-Two Studies for Organ: Harmonies (1967), Coulée (1969)








-Lontano (1967)




-Ramifications (1968-69)




-Chamber Concerto (1969-70)




-String Quartet No. 2 (1968) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._2_(Ligeti))




-Ten Pieces for Wind Quintet (1968)




-Continuum (1970) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(Ligeti))




-Melodien (1971)




-Double Concerto (1972)
no video  (it's a great work)
-San Francisco Polyphony (1973-74)




-Clocks and Clouds (1973)




-Le Grand Macabre (1975-77)




-Passacaglia ungherese (1978)




-Hungarian Rock (Chaconne) (1978)




-Three Pieces for Two Pianos (1976)




-Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (1982) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trio_for_Violin,_Horn_and_Piano_(Ligeti))




-Hommage à Hilding Rosenberg, for violin and cello (1982)




*Late period, polyrhythms* (1980-2006):
-Études pour piano, Book 1, six etudes (1985) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Études_(Ligeti))




 (1, 3 and 6)




 (2)




 (4)




 (5)
-Three Fantasies After Friedrich Hölderlin (1982)




-Three hungarian etudes(1983)




-Piano Concerto (1980-88) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_(Ligeti))








-Der Sommer, voice and piano (1989)




-Études pour piano, Book 2, eight etudes (1988-94)




 (7)




 (8)




 (9)




 (10, the second in the video)




 (11)




 (12)




 (13)




 (14)
-Nonsense madrigals, for 6 male voices (1988-1993)




 (1)




 (2)




 (3)




 (4)




 (5)




 (6)
-Violin Concerto (1989-93) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Ligeti))




 (first and second movement only)




 (all movements)
-Sonata for Solo Viola (1991-94)




-Études pour piano, Book 3, four etudes (1995-2001)




 (15)




 (16)
no video for the others
-Hamburg Concerto (1998-99, revised 2002) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Concerto)








-Síppal, dobbal, nádihegedűvel (With Pipes, Drums, Fiddles) (2000) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Síppal,_dobbal,_nádihegedüvel)





I have skipped some very early choral works, you can hear them in the continuation of the videos of the nonsense madrigals.
:tiphat:


----------



## violadude

aleazk said:


> Since _György Ligeti_ (1923-2006) is quite mentioned recently, I thought that it would be interesting to have *a list with all his pieces and corresponding youtube videos*, for those who are interested in his works, but they don't know where to start.
> I will make the list in chronological order, mentioning the different styles and 'phases' of his compositions.
> 
> *Early pieces, Bartok and modes*(1950-1960):
> -Due capricci (1947) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_capricci_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Baladă şi joc (Ballad and Dance), for two violins (1950) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baladă_şi_joc)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Concert românesc (1951)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Sonata for Solo Cello (1948/1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_for_Solo_Cello_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Musica ricercata (1951-1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the rest of the pieces will appear in the 'related videos' section of youtube)
> -Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet (1953) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Andante and Allegretto, for string quartet (1950)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -String Quartet No. 1 Métamorphoses nocturnes (1953-54) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._1_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Chromatische Phantasie (1956)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Towards micropolyphony, humour, electronic, colour* (1960-1980):
> -Apparitions (1958-59)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Electronic music: Glissandi (1957), Artikulation (1958)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Atmosphères (1961) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphères)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Volumina (1961-62, revised 1966)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Poème Symphonique, for 100 metronomes (1962) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poème_Symphonique)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Aventures (1962)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Nouvelles Aventures (1962-65)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Requiem (1963-65)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Cello Concerto (1966)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Lux Aeterna (1966) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux_Aeterna_(György_Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Two Studies for Organ: Harmonies (1967), Coulée (1969)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Lontano (1967)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ramifications (1968-69)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Chamber Concerto (1969-70)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -String Quartet No. 2 (1968) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._2_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ten Pieces for Wind Quintet (1968)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Continuum (1970) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Melodien (1971)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Double Concerto (1972)
> no video  (it's a great work)
> -San Francisco Polyphony (1973-74)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Clocks and Clouds (1973)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Le Grand Macabre (1975-77)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Passacaglia ungherese (1978)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Hungarian Rock (Chaconne) (1978)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Three Pieces for Two Pianos (1976)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (1982) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trio_for_Violin,_Horn_and_Piano_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Hommage à Hilding Rosenberg, for violin and cello (1982)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Late period, polyrhythms* (1980-2006):
> -Études pour piano, Book 1, six etudes (1985) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Études_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1, 3 and 6)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5)
> -Piano Concerto (1980-88) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Études pour piano, Book 2, eight etudes (1988-94)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (7)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (9)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (10, the second in the video)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (11)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (12)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (13)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (14)
> -Nonsense madrigals, for 6 male voices (1988-1993)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (6)
> -Violin Concerto (1989-93) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (first and second movement only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (all movements)
> -Sonata for Solo Viola (1991-94)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Études pour piano, Book 3, four etudes (1995-2001)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (15)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (16)
> no video for the others
> -Hamburg Concerto (1998-99, revised 2002) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Concerto)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Síppal, dobbal, nádihegedűvel (With Pipes, Drums, Fiddles) (2000) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Síppal,_dobbal,_nádihegedüvel)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have skipped some very early choral works, you can hear them in the continuation of the videos of the nonsense madrigals.
> :tiphat:


You sir, are a dedicated Ligeti promoter.


----------



## aleazk

violadude said:


> You sir, are a dedicated Ligeti promoter.


And that's good or bad?


----------



## violadude

aleazk said:


> Since _György Ligeti_ (1923-2006) is quite mentioned recently, I thought that it would be interesting to have *a list with all his pieces and corresponding youtube videos*, for those who are interested in his works, but they don't know where to start.
> I will make the list in chronological order, mentioning the different styles and 'phases' of his compositions.
> 
> *Early pieces, Bartok and modes*(1950-1960):
> -Due capricci (1947) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_capricci_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Baladă şi joc (Ballad and Dance), for two violins (1950) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baladă_şi_joc)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Concert românesc (1951)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Sonata for Solo Cello (1948/1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_for_Solo_Cello_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Musica ricercata (1951-1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the rest of the pieces will appear in the 'related videos' section of youtube)
> -Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet (1953) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Andante and Allegretto, for string quartet (1950)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -String Quartet No. 1 Métamorphoses nocturnes (1953-54) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._1_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Chromatische Phantasie (1956)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Towards micropolyphony, humour, electronic, colour* (1960-1980):
> -Apparitions (1958-59)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Electronic music: Glissandi (1957), Artikulation (1958)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Atmosphères (1961) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphères)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Volumina (1961-62, revised 1966)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Poème Symphonique, for 100 metronomes (1962) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poème_Symphonique)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Aventures (1962)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Nouvelles Aventures (1962-65)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Requiem (1963-65)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Cello Concerto (1966)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Lux Aeterna (1966) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux_Aeterna_(György_Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Two Studies for Organ: Harmonies (1967), Coulée (1969)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Lontano (1967)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ramifications (1968-69)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Chamber Concerto (1969-70)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -String Quartet No. 2 (1968) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._2_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ten Pieces for Wind Quintet (1968)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Continuum (1970) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Melodien (1971)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Double Concerto (1972)
> no video  (it's a great work)
> -San Francisco Polyphony (1973-74)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Clocks and Clouds (1973)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Le Grand Macabre (1975-77)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Passacaglia ungherese (1978)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Hungarian Rock (Chaconne) (1978)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Three Pieces for Two Pianos (1976)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (1982) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trio_for_Violin,_Horn_and_Piano_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Hommage à Hilding Rosenberg, for violin and cello (1982)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Late period, polyrhythms* (1980-2006):
> -Études pour piano, Book 1, six etudes (1985) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Études_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1, 3 and 6)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5)
> -Piano Concerto (1980-88) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Études pour piano, Book 2, eight etudes (1988-94)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (7)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (9)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (10, the second in the video)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (11)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (12)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (13)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (14)
> -Nonsense madrigals, for 6 male voices (1988-1993)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (6)
> -Violin Concerto (1989-93) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (first and second movement only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (all movements)
> -Sonata for Solo Viola (1991-94)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Études pour piano, Book 3, four etudes (1995-2001)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (15)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (16)
> no video for the others
> -Hamburg Concerto (1998-99, revised 2002) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Concerto)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Síppal, dobbal, nádihegedűvel (With Pipes, Drums, Fiddles) (2000) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Síppal,_dobbal,_nádihegedüvel)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have skipped some very early choral works, you can hear them in the continuation of the videos of the nonsense madrigals.
> :tiphat:


Double Post, sorry.


----------



## violadude

aleazk said:


> And that's good or bad?


I like Ligeti, so it's good.


----------



## Ramako

I thought about buying some Ligeti recently, because of all the hype on here, but held back at the last moment. Do you have any "Ligeti for beginners" (dinosaurs) recommendations?


----------



## aleazk

Ramako said:


> I thought about buying some Ligeti recently, because of all the hype on here, but held back at the last moment. Do you have any "Ligeti for beginners" (dinosaurs) recommendations?


Well, I always recommend the classics:
-Lux Aeterna
-Atmospheres
-Requiem
(these were used in Kubrick's movie '2001: a space odyssey')
Also:
-Clocks and Clouds
-Piano concerto
-Piano etudes
-nonsense madrigals
All of these pieces will give you a general idea of Ligeti's main musical ideas.
If you look for 'accessible pieces', 'non-dissonant' (whatever), you can check his early pieces.


----------



## BurningDesire

Ramako said:


> I thought about buying some Ligeti recently, because of all the hype on here, but held back at the last moment. Do you have any "Ligeti for beginners" (dinosaurs) recommendations?


I personally recommend his _Lontano_ for large orchestra, and _Musica Ricercata_ and the two books of _Etudes_ for piano, and the _Hungarian Rock_ and _Continuum_ both for harpsichord. I also recommend _Volumina_ for pipe organ and the _Poeme Symphonique for 100 metronomes_, which, even if you don't wind up loving them, are very interesting sonic experiences. _Volumina_ at the start just feels like this massive wall of sound, even on very low volume it just sounds HUGE (incidentally, the chord at the beginning is full arm tone clusters playing on a manual, with all of the organ stops pulled out: All notes on the organ playing at once, every pipe, at max volume.)


----------



## oogabooha

I'm not hugely into Ligeti, but after hearing a great piece performed this summer, I've been listening to his piano works. Where should I go to next? What I've heard so far is magnificent.


----------



## BurningDesire

oogabooha said:


> I'm not hugely into Ligeti, but after hearing a great piece performed this summer, I've been listening to his piano works. Where should I go to next? What I've heard so far is magnificent.


What piece did you hear performed?


----------



## contra7

aleazk, thanks for sharing this list of youtube videos. I've listened to some of his works and he is fantastic!


----------



## oogabooha

BurningDesire said:


> What piece did you hear performed?


It was the wind quintet arrangement of Musica ricercata


----------



## BurningDesire

aleazk said:


> Since _György Ligeti_ (1923-2006) is quite mentioned recently, I thought that it would be interesting to have *a list with all his pieces and corresponding youtube videos*, for those who are interested in his works, but they don't know where to start.
> I will make the list in chronological order, mentioning the different styles and 'phases' of his compositions.
> 
> *Early pieces, Bartok and modes*(1950-1960):
> -Due capricci (1947) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_capricci_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Baladă şi joc (Ballad and Dance), for two violins (1950) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baladă_şi_joc)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Concert românesc (1951)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Sonata for Solo Cello (1948/1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonata_for_Solo_Cello_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Musica ricercata (1951-1953), (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the rest of the pieces will appear in the 'related videos' section of youtube)
> -Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet (1953) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ricercata)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Andante and Allegretto, for string quartet (1950)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -String Quartet No. 1 Métamorphoses nocturnes (1953-54) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._1_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Chromatische Phantasie (1956)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Towards micropolyphony, humour, electronic, colour* (1960-1980):
> -Apparitions (1958-59)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Electronic music: Glissandi (1957), Artikulation (1958)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Atmosphères (1961) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphères)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Volumina (1961-62, revised 1966)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Poème Symphonique, for 100 metronomes (1962) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poème_Symphonique)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Aventures (1962)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Nouvelles Aventures (1962-65)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Requiem (1963-65)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Cello Concerto (1966)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Lux Aeterna (1966) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux_Aeterna_(György_Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Two Studies for Organ: Harmonies (1967), Coulée (1969)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Lontano (1967)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ramifications (1968-69)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Chamber Concerto (1969-70)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -String Quartet No. 2 (1968) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._2_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Ten Pieces for Wind Quintet (1968)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Continuum (1970) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Melodien (1971)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Double Concerto (1972)
> no video  (it's a great work)
> -San Francisco Polyphony (1973-74)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Clocks and Clouds (1973)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Le Grand Macabre (1975-77)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Passacaglia ungherese (1978)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Hungarian Rock (Chaconne) (1978)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Three Pieces for Two Pianos (1976)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Trio for Violin, Horn and Piano (1982) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trio_for_Violin,_Horn_and_Piano_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Hommage à Hilding Rosenberg, for violin and cello (1982)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Late period, polyrhythms* (1980-2006):
> -Études pour piano, Book 1, six etudes (1985) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Études_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1, 3 and 6)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5)
> -Three Fantasies After Friedrich Hölderlin (1982)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Three hungarian etudes(1983)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Piano Concerto (1980-88) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Concerto_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Der Sommer, voice and piano (1989)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Études pour piano, Book 2, eight etudes (1988-94)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (7)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (9)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (10, the second in the video)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (11)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (12)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (13)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (14)
> -Nonsense madrigals, for 6 male voices (1988-1993)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (4)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (5)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (6)
> -Violin Concerto (1989-93) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Ligeti))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (first and second movement only)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (all movements)
> -Sonata for Solo Viola (1991-94)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Études pour piano, Book 3, four etudes (1995-2001)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (15)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (16)
> no video for the others
> -Hamburg Concerto (1998-99, revised 2002) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_Concerto)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Síppal, dobbal, nádihegedűvel (With Pipes, Drums, Fiddles) (2000) (wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Síppal,_dobbal,_nádihegedüvel)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have skipped some very early choral works, you can hear them in the continuation of the videos of the nonsense madrigals.
> :tiphat:


That is seriously astounding. If I had a hat, I would tip it to you for that.


----------



## aleazk

BurningDesire said:


> I personally recommend his _Lontano_ for large orchestra, and _Musica Ricercata_ and the two books of _Etudes_ for piano, and the _Hungarian Rock_ and _Continuum_ both for harpsichord. I also recommend _Volumina_ for pipe organ and the _Poeme Symphonique for 100 metronomes_, which, even if you don't wind up loving them, are very interesting sonic experiences. _Volumina_ at the start just feels like this massive wall of sound, even on very low volume it just sounds HUGE (incidentally, the chord at the beginning is full arm tone clusters playing on a manual, with all of the organ stops pulled out: All notes on the organ playing at once, every pipe, at max volume.)


Speaking about the organ. While making the list, I found a fantastic version of the first organ etude, 'harmonies', which follows Ligeti's indications about reducing the power of the pump, or something like that. The sound is incredible, so ethereal, it's hard to believe that it's actually an organ!.

wow, I just fall in some kind of 'trance' while listening to that etude and seeing this image at the same time:


----------



## BurningDesire

aleazk said:


> Speaking about the organ. While making the list, I found a fantastic version of the first organ etude, 'harmonies', which follows Ligeti's indications about reducing the power of the pump, or something like that. The sound is incredible, so ethereal, it's hard to believe that it's actually an organ!.
> 
> wow, I just fall in some kind of 'trance' while listening to that etude and seeing this image at the same time:


I believe he suggests replacing the normal organ pump with that of a vacuum cleaner in the score. X3


----------



## aleazk

BurningDesire said:


> I believe he suggests replacing the normal organ pump with that of a vacuum cleaner in the score. X3


haha, Ligeti seems to have a very special relation with organ's machinery. This machinery sometimes catches fire (like in the premiere of Volumina), sometimes sounds like a vacuum cleaner, etc. :lol:


----------



## Vaneyes

Prom 44, Ligeti, Berio, et al.(review and concert linked)

http://www.classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=10380

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod..._Ligeti_Berio_Xenakis_Harvey_Andriessen_Cage/


----------



## Vaneyes

"Guide to Gyorgy Ligeti's Music"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2012/aug/27/gyorgy-ligeti-contemporary-music-guide


----------



## Bas

Hello Ligeti Fans out there,

I joined this forum for a month now. And I, a wig dinosaur, have enjoyed the good talks here. There is lots of inspiration for new music, and the change to recommend works to others. I like it a lot. There are some very enthousiastic fans of mr. Ligeti here, and I was thinking: I'll broaden my horizon. I recently bought some cd's from modern composers such as James MacMillan, Glass, Gorecki (not his third symphony but the more dissonant alleluah and some more).

I liked most of the pieces - although they will not get to my daily playlist, my mind would explode if I heard them too often. I can listen to harpsichord concerto's all day, but these modern works consume my concentration. Considering my more baroque background, what would you recommend for a not too atonal very heavy and way too complicated for my simple mind Ligeti-for-Wig-lovers piece? Where do I start?


----------



## starthrower

Try the wind quintet pieces. Sonata for solo cello is another beautiful piece. These are on disc one of the Clear Or Cloudy box on the DG label. I'm sure you can find them on YouTube.

You might want to look into the music of Alfred Schnittke as well. There are many traditional elements, excerpts, etc. weaving through his modern pieces. Concerto For Piano And Strings is a good starting point.


----------



## Crudblud

Bas said:


> Hello Ligeti Fans out there,
> 
> I joined this forum for a month now. And I, a wig dinosaur, have enjoyed the good talks here. There is lots of inspiration for new music, and the change to recommend works to others. I like it a lot. There are some very enthousiastic fans of mr. Ligeti here, and I was thinking: I'll broaden my horizon. I recently bought some cd's from modern composers such as James MacMillan, Glass, Gorecki (not his third symphony but the more dissonant alleluah and some more).
> 
> I liked most of the pieces - although they will not get to my daily playlist, my mind would explode if I heard them too often. I can listen to harpsichord concerto's all day, but these modern works consume my concentration. Considering my more baroque background, what would you recommend for a not too atonal very heavy and way too complicated for my simple mind Ligeti-for-Wig-lovers piece? Where do I start?


Try the 6 Bagatelles for Wind Quintet, the Études for piano, Musica Ricercata and perhaps Metamorphoses Nocturnes. And there's always Atmospheres if you want to go with the most popular piece.


----------



## neoshredder

Bas said:


> Hello Ligeti Fans out there,
> 
> I joined this forum for a month now. And I, a wig dinosaur, have enjoyed the good talks here. There is lots of inspiration for new music, and the change to recommend works to others. I like it a lot. There are some very enthousiastic fans of mr. Ligeti here, and I was thinking: I'll broaden my horizon. I recently bought some cd's from modern composers such as James MacMillan, Glass, Gorecki (not his third symphony but the more dissonant alleluah and some more).
> 
> I liked most of the pieces - although they will not get to my daily playlist, my mind would explode if I heard them too often. I can listen to harpsichord concerto's all day, but these modern works consume my concentration. Considering my more baroque background, what would you recommend for a not too atonal very heavy and way too complicated for my simple mind Ligeti-for-Wig-lovers piece? Where do I start?


Lontano and Atmospheres are my 2 favorites. I'm also a big wig fan btw.


----------



## Vaneyes

Bas said:


> Hello Ligeti Fans out there....what would you recommend for a not too atonal very heavy and way too complicated for my simple mind Ligeti-for-Wig-lovers piece? Where do I start?


Rather than chronological, maybe a genre listening build-up from solo to chamber to orchestral would prove helpful.

Some suggested recs, that I think would suit your initial needs. Enjoy.

View attachment 7599
View attachment 7600
View attachment 7601

View attachment 7598


----------



## neoshredder

Bas said:


> Hello Ligeti Fans out there,
> 
> I joined this forum for a month now. And I, a wig dinosaur, have enjoyed the good talks here. There is lots of inspiration for new music, and the change to recommend works to others. I like it a lot. There are some very enthousiastic fans of mr. Ligeti here, and I was thinking: I'll broaden my horizon. I recently bought some cd's from modern composers such as James MacMillan, Glass, Gorecki (not his third symphony but the more dissonant alleluah and some more).
> 
> I liked most of the pieces - although they will not get to my daily playlist, my mind would explode if I heard them too often. I can listen to harpsichord concerto's all day, but these modern works consume my concentration. Considering my more baroque background, what would you recommend for a not too atonal very heavy and way too complicated for my simple mind Ligeti-for-Wig-lovers piece? Where do I start?


Any luck with the Ligeti pieces suggestions so far? From what I've heard, it looks like the 60's Ligeti is my favorite.


----------



## Bas

Well, I have not got the time and it is already a quarter past 12 am, so I should really get to sleep right now! 
Maybe in the weekend, be patient!


----------



## Lizardfolk

Vaneyes said:


> Rather than chronological, maybe a genre listening build-up from solo to chamber to orchestral would prove helpful.
> 
> Some suggested recs, that I think would suit your initial needs. Enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 7599
> View attachment 7600
> View attachment 7601
> 
> View attachment 7598


Some of these are a very good listen tbh


----------



## Bas

The etudes (I liked them, especially number two) I've listened brought the youtube suggestion of this organ piece: it is great.

I noticed that however the solo piano genre of the etudes (which I would qualify as background music if it were tonal music) they are not at all easy listening. However: it just takes a lot of concentration and the appreciation will come in slowly. I will listen some of them again this evening, but will prepare with some absolutely sweet harmonies of the voice by Clemens non Papa - to prepare the ears for the violent chords later on the evening


----------



## aleazk

Why all these recommendations of the bagatelles?. I think they are not representative of Ligeti's musical ideas. I always recommend the classics, Atmospheres, Lux Aeterna, Requiem, for someone who don't know nothing about Ligeti.

(although, to be fair, I'm not a very big fan of 'musica ricercata', so my opinion is biased)


----------



## Crudblud

aleazk said:


> Why all these recommendations of the bagatelles?. I think they are not representative of Ligeti's musical ideas.


How are they not representative of his musical ideas? He, as any good composer, had many musical ideas, and his pieces all deal with different aspects of those musical ideas. I think what you are actually saying is that they are not representative of your conception of his musical ideas.

P.S.: Might as well say it again - musical ideas.


----------



## BurningDesire

Bas said:


> Hello Ligeti Fans out there,
> 
> I joined this forum for a month now. And I, a wig dinosaur, have enjoyed the good talks here. There is lots of inspiration for new music, and the change to recommend works to others. I like it a lot. There are some very enthousiastic fans of mr. Ligeti here, and I was thinking: I'll broaden my horizon. I recently bought some cd's from modern composers such as James MacMillan, Glass, Gorecki (not his third symphony but the more dissonant alleluah and some more).
> 
> I liked most of the pieces - although they will not get to my daily playlist, my mind would explode if I heard them too often. I can listen to harpsichord concerto's all day, but these modern works consume my concentration. Considering my more baroque background, what would you recommend for a not too atonal very heavy and way too complicated for my simple mind Ligeti-for-Wig-lovers piece? Where do I start?


Hmm, well I agree with Starthrower that you may want to explore the works of Schnittke which range from authentic baroque and classical sounding works to very modernist and atonal pieces, and various combinations of those diverse worlds in a very dramatic (dare I say Romantic?) sound world. Also, you don't have a simple mind  its just, alot of this music can be quite challenging because it is very different in so many ways from music written hundreds of years ago (but it is not removed from the tradition) and it just takes time to become familiar with the vocabulary that modernist music has cultivated over the past century. With time you will grow to understand it deeper and deeper, and I don't mean necessarily in an intellectual way. But yeah, Schnittke is a good synthesis of the disparate worlds of very old and very recent developements in this tradition  Beautiful music. As for pieces, I recommend his Suite in the Old Style (either for violin and piano, or for orchestra), Concerto Grosso No. 1, the Concerto Gross No. 3, String Quartet No. 3, and his Symphony No. 1. At first, it may sound almost schizophrenic in nature, but gradually you can really hear how well these totally different approaches can be melded together such as he did, and it is magnificent.


----------



## BurningDesire

aleazk said:


> Why all these recommendations of the bagatelles?. I think they are not representative of Ligeti's musical ideas. I always recommend the classics, Atmospheres, Lux Aeterna, Requiem, for someone who don't know nothing about Ligeti.
> 
> (although, to be fair, I'm not a very big fan of 'musica ricercata', so my opinion is biased)


I agree with Crudblud. I think there's alot of his personality and ideas present in those works. Musica Ricercata show's Ligeti's experimental nature, his imagination in manipulating musical materials in very new and interesting ways, his clever sense of humor and open-mindedness about how music can be made, his admiration for Bartok, whom I think Ligeti learned alot from, his unique ideas about rhythms. Micropolyphony and textures and timbre are only parts of Ligeti's broad musical palette.


----------



## aleazk

Well, as I said, I'm not a big fan of MR, so that opinion is really biased. And yes, I may have certain conception that is not fulfilled in MR. After having listened to all his works, I can say that the early period is my least favorite.


----------



## neoshredder

Well once the 60's came along, that is when Ligeti came to his own. Found the style he was reallly good at imo. I would start with his 60's works and go up from there.


----------



## cjvinthechair

Sorry - going to be contentious. 
Earlier poster calls 'Atmospheres' one of Ligeti's classics. It stared the Prom last night of otherwise beautiful music, & although I was quite prepared to give it a go, as I am with nearly all modern music, I found it quite incomprehensible, and unrecognisable as 'music' at all, not least the brass players just breathing into their instruments with no instrument sound at all.
If that makes me stupid & ignorant..I'll settle for it; to me it's like Tracey Emin's unmade bed....a con trick !

Sorry; have fun demolishing this post !


----------



## Crudblud

cjvinthechair said:


> Sorry - going to be contentious.
> Earlier poster calls 'Atmospheres' one of Ligeti's classics. It stared the Prom last night of otherwise beautiful music, & although I was quite prepared to give it a go, as I am with nearly all modern music, I found it quite incomprehensible, and unrecognisable as 'music' at all, not least the brass players just breathing into their instruments with no instrument sound at all.
> If that makes me stupid & ignorant..I'll settle for it; to me it's like Tracey Emin's unmade bed....a con trick !
> 
> Sorry; have fun demolishing this post !


While Tracey Emin's bed is debatable... while Tracey Emin in general is debatable, Atmospheres has simply introduced you to means of expression that you are familiar with, namely microtonal polyphony and the deep exploration of timbre central to the piece. To put it another way, and to use one of your own example; the brass players blowing but making "no instrument sound" were still producing a sound, just with a different timbre to the one you were expecting. The piece is built around subtle timbral shifts, something which may be quite alien to someone not familiar with much post-Schoenberg 20th century music, and which you may find more comprehensible in this piece by Takemitsu which does not employ a "wall of sound" type construction.

So instead, cjv, why not try the Bagatelles for Wind Quintet, which are jovial and very accessible, and Musica Ricercata* which begins restricted to two notes - a new note is added in each piece, gradually reaching a fully chromatic finale.

*Since for some reason Sony has blocked these pieces from being played in a playlist on YouTube (I'm really not sure what difference it makes, but that's the music industry for you!), I'm going to link all the pieces right here.

No. 1: Sostenuto
No. 2: Mesto, rigido e ceremoniale
No. 3: Allegro con spirito
No. 4: Tempo di valse
No. 5: Rubato. Lamentoso
No. 6: Allegro molto capriccioso
No. 7: Cantabile, molto legato
No. 8: Vivace. Energico
No. 9: Béla Bartók in Memoriam
No. 10: Vivace. Capriccioso
No. 11: Ormaggio a Girolamo Frescobaldi


----------



## aleazk

neoshredder said:


> Well once the 60's came along, that is when Ligeti came to his own. Found the style he was reallly good at imo. I would start with his 60's works and go up from there.


Yes, this is closer to what I think. A better phrase to express what I was thinking is that MR is not the most interesting representative of Ligeti's musical ideas. I think some of the ideas are developed in far more interesting ways in other pieces by him. For example, BD says 'experimental nature, his imagination in manipulating musical materials in very new and interesting ways'. Yes, it's true. But I find that this aspect is more consistently, and more interestingly, developed in the set of _piano etudes_. Every etude develops a new and interesting idea (besides the ubiquitous polyrhythms). BD says 'his clever sense of humor', and yes, there's humor in MR. But I think that the _nonsense madrigals_ or the _second movement of the violin concerto_ are the most clever examples. BD says 'his unique ideas about rhythms', again, yes, there are some which are 'rhythmical', like the piece number VIII, which is nice and that I enjoy. But what a better example like the set of _piano etudes_ for the listener who is interested in Ligeti's ideas about rhythm.
For all these reasons, I would recommend the pieces I mentioned instead of MR. That's just my personal opinion and you are welcome to disagree of course.


----------



## cjvinthechair

Crudblud said:


> While Tracey Emin's bed is debatable... while Tracey Emin in general is debatable, Atmospheres has simply introduced you to means of expression that you are familiar with, namely microtonal polyphony and the deep exploration of timbre central to the piece. To put it another way, and to use one of your own example; the brass players blowing but making "no instrument sound" were still producing a sound, just with a different timbre to the one you were expecting. The piece is built around subtle timbral shifts, something which may be quite alien to someone not familiar with much post-Schoenberg 20th century music, and which you may find more comprehensible in this piece by Takemitsu which does not employ a "wall of sound" type construction.
> 
> So instead, cjv, why not try the Bagatelles for Wind Quintet, which are jovial and very accessible, and Musica Ricercata* which begins restricted to two notes - a new note is added in each piece, gradually reaching a fully chromatic finale.
> 
> *Hey, most kind of you to take the trouble to try to educate me, rather than crow at my ignorance ! I'll certainly give these a go ! Thanks.


----------



## Crudblud

cjvinthechair said:


> Hey, most kind of you to take the trouble to try to educate me, rather than crow at my ignorance ! I'll certainly give these a go ! Thanks.


No problem at all. I'm glad you're open to giving Ligeti another chance, and for further listening: if you like the pieces I posted you may wish to try his études for piano.


----------



## millionrainbows

I've always liked the way she plays the Études; and I'm glad she took the liberty, as Sviatoslav Richter did on many of his recordings, of selecting certain ones, and thus creating a CD that is eminently listenable.


----------



## Turangalîla

Ligeti's etudes for piano are the best 20th-century etudes I have ever heard. I just finished ejoying them again for the millionth time this evening


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Ligeti's etudes for piano are the best 20th-century etudes I have ever heard. I just finished ejoying them again for the millionth time this evening


Which is your favourite?


----------



## Turangalîla

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Which is your favourite?


I have to say No. 9-sooo amazing! My other favourites are Nos. 4, 5, 8, and 16. Aimard's recording of them is MAGIC!


----------



## Turangalîla

Actually, I was going to create a poll for that very question...give me a day or two for that.


----------



## Lenfer

oogabooha said:


> I'm not hugely into Ligeti, but after hearing a great piece performed this summer, I've been listening to his piano works. Where should I go to next? What I've heard so far is magnificent.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> favo*u*rites


I now love Canadian English.


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## Turangalîla

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I now love Canadian English.


Me too, neighbour.


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## etkearne

I love Ligeti. He was one of the first composers I got hooked on, after Bartok and Ravel. My favorite work of his happens to be the "Cello Concerto" because it contains some of the most ground-breaking and truly modern sounds I have ever heard. In fact, the end of the second movement MAY in fact be the most "ahead of its time" section of music that I have had the pleasure to listen to and analyze. It is far beyond tonality and also far beyond serialism and strict atonality. It is something that popular music will not embrace for 200-300 years probably. Even jazz won't embrace it for 50-100 years likely.


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## starthrower

^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm listening to disc 3 of Clear Or Cloudy this morning. I put it on for the reasons you articulated, because I haven't found all that many interesting cello concertos. In fact, everything on this disc is very interesting, including the chamber concerto, Mysteries Of The Macabre, and the beautiful double concerto.


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## aleazk

starthrower said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> I'm listening to disc 3 of Clear Or Cloudy this morning. I put it on for the reasons you articulated, because I haven't found all that many interesting cello concertos. In fact, everything on this disc is very interesting, including the chamber concerto, Mysteries Of The Macabre, and the beautiful double concerto.


Yes, the Double Concerto is a great piece.


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## PeterFromLA

*Poeme Symphonique*

I have many great memories of witnessing Ligeti performances, done by folks like Salonen, Boulez, Aimard, the Arditti SQ, et al., but my favorite performance was one that was not done by professional musicians. It took place at the Cleveland Museum of Art, in front of a desolate and haunting painting by German artist Anselm Kiefer titled "Lot's Wife;" the painting on a lead foil canvas appears to depict an abandoned rail yard: http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/consexhib/illusmag/KIEFER_1.jpg

The musical work was Ligeti's Poeme Symphonique. The metronomes were started in unison by about 100 non-musicians. We sat and watched the metronomes slowly "die out," until only a few and then only one persistent one were left. Seeing the work in front of the Kiefer painting was incredibly poignant. It was impossible for me not to think of the work in existential terms, or in biographical terms (e.g., Ligeti's incredible story of survival and escape from under two brutal regimes), but also in historical terms, in relation to Germany's history, and the cattle cars that transported European Jews and other targeted groups to concentration camps. Suddenly, a work that had always seemed a joke to me took on a depth I had not imagined it having. A work that began by sounding like the clickety clack of a train riding on rails became at the end the sound of a human pulse, or human heart, struggling to remain alive amidst an inhuman environment, while the rest of us, the world, sat and watched and did nothing.

I don't think I was the only person in the audience who was moved by what was seen and heard.


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## Jimm

_Le Grand Macabre_ is finally out on Blu-Ray, check amazon.


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## aleazk

A wonderful analysis, and audition with live musicians, of Ligeti's violin concerto!:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/pip/8bmnt/


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## neoshredder

Just love saying the word. LIGETI!


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

neoshredder said:


> Just love saying the word. LIGETI!


It depends how you pronounce it (including the *György*)


----------



## BurningDesire

PeterFromLA said:


> I have many great memories of witnessing Ligeti performances, done by folks like Salonen, Boulez, Aimard, the Arditti SQ, et al., but my favorite performance was one that was not done by professional musicians. It took place at the Cleveland Museum of Art, in front of a desolate and haunting painting by German artist Anselm Kiefer titled "Lot's Wife;" the painting on a lead foil canvas appears to depict an abandoned rail yard: http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/consexhib/illusmag/KIEFER_1.jpg
> 
> The musical work was Ligeti's Poeme Symphonique. The metronomes were started in unison by about 100 non-musicians. We sat and watched the metronomes slowly "die out," until only a few and then only one persistent one were left. Seeing the work in front of the Kiefer painting was incredibly poignant. It was impossible for me not to think of the work in existential terms, or in biographical terms (e.g., Ligeti's incredible story of survival and escape from under two brutal regimes), but also in historical terms, in relation to Germany's history, and the cattle cars that transported European Jews and other targeted groups to concentration camps. Suddenly, a work that had always seemed a joke to me took on a depth I had not imagined it having. A work that began by sounding like the clickety clack of a train riding on rails became at the end the sound of a human pulse, or human heart, struggling to remain alive amidst an inhuman environment, while the rest of us, the world, sat and watched and did nothing.
> 
> I don't think I was the only person in the audience who was moved by what was seen and heard.


Very interesting interpretation  I've often listened to it like it was rain


----------



## pendereckiobsessed

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> It depends how you pronounce it (including the *György*)


So how do you say Ligeti's name correctly anyway?


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## neoshredder

LIJETEE right?


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## aleazk

pendereckiobsessed said:


> How do you say Ligeti's name correctly anyway?


Listen to the first minutes of that analysis I posted and you will see.  (seriously).


----------



## aleazk

neoshredder said:


> LIJETEE right?


Lige*tt*i.


----------



## Hausmusik

Just like you say spaghetti, or so I'm told. The "g" is hard.

http://www.forvo.com/word/györgy_sándor_ligeti/


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## Vaneyes

Pronunciations are fun. Years ago, I said "Penderecki" just the way it looks...to a Polish physician who loved classical music of all people. She quickly chided me, saying, "You're not even close." I laughed, she didn't. Soon after, I looked up the correct pronunciation, and said "Holy ****" to myself. I couldn't remember that without rehearsing it, and I wasn't about to do that. Long story short, I still say it the same way and don't care who likes it.

I did finally make an effort to say Boo-lezzzzzzz. Instead of Boo-lay.

LIH-gheh-tee

http://iowapublicradio.org/about-ipr/dictionary.html

LOLOL :lol::lol:


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## neoshredder

Geeorjay Lijetee is how you say it right?


----------



## Trout

This website is also pretty useful: http://www.pronunciationguide.info/thebiglist.html


----------



## starthrower

neoshredder said:


> Geeorjay Lijetee is how you say it right?


No. It's jurj li-get-ee. Accent on first syllable.


----------



## aleazk

A lot of scores for perusal (from Ligeti's publisher, Schott):

http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/gyoergy-ligeti/works/

-Violin Concerto: http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/gyoergy-ligeti/works/katur-1261470-orchestra/


----------



## Mahlerian

aleazk said:


> A lot of scores for perusal (from Ligeti's publisher, Schott):
> 
> http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/gyoergy-ligeti/works/
> 
> -Violin Concerto: http://www.schott-music.com/shop/persons/featured/gyoergy-ligeti/works/katur-1261470-orchestra/


If I weren't about to sit down and listen through Wozzeck, I would spend some serious time with this. I'll have to check it out later!


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

starthrower said:


> No. It's jurj li-get-ee. Accent on first syllable.


I asked a Hungarian music teacher (who had been fortunate enough to have Kodály as a teacher) how to pronounce his first name and it's GYER (like a ö in German) gee with hard G sound, not like a J.


----------



## starthrower

I got the pronunciation from a website with audio samples. They also had Penderecki pronounced as Penderetski.


----------



## aleazk

Delightful!:

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2010/05/ligeti-sings.html

...lol, in the middle of the singing he realizes how bad it is and he says "sorry, sorry"!, and then he continues singing...

What a great man he was!.


----------



## DrKilroy

starthrower said:


> They also had Penderecki pronounced as Penderetski.


That's about to be right - it is exactly Pen - dhe - rhetz - ky. 

Best regards, Dr


----------



## aleazk

Happy Birthday!, Master. 90 years!.
I'm going to celebrate this day with his music, of course!.






Listen to that, he's still alive!.


----------



## Cygnenoir

Happy birthday! :trp:
You don't know how much you have inspired me, and will continue to do so.

Regards,
Alexander


----------



## hreichgott

Happy birthday Mr Ligeti!
I caught the end of Atmospheres on the radio today and am about to go listen to it in total. 
Thanks for the beauty, the weirdness, and the way you pushed piano technique ahead too.


----------



## aleazk

What an amazing video!:






With this visual realization, Ligeti's ideas of continuous transformation and interaction of the inner voices in order to achieve, at the surface, a gradual change in the general texture, can be easily understood.
You can actually see the Escher-like structure of the music!:


----------



## aleazk

Another great documentary:


----------



## Adeodatus100

I've only very recently discovered Ligeti's music. I'm currently addicted to Musica Ricercata. Possibly some of the _cleverest_ music since Bach.


----------



## Celloman

My favorite Ligeti piece is probably his violin concerto. I like the contemporary take on old historic musical forms such as the hockey and the passacaglia. It's a very sophisticated, multi-layered work.


----------



## Weston

I am looking for a recording (preferably already in mp3 format because I am impatient) of the Requiem -- the complete work. The bit used in 2001: a space odyssey is spine tingling, but I get the impression that is only a small portion of it. Is there more?

I would also like the Concerto for Chamber orchestra (I believe there is a record by Reinbert de Leeuw?). If these are on the same album that would be superb!

I am frustrated searching for works on Amazon and on my Rhapsody account because they think all the piece titles are "Andante," "Allegro molto," etc.  I suppose I could go through Allmusic . . .

On second thought - it looks like they are all on The Ligeti Project boxed set from Teldec, $31.84 from Amazon. Maybe I should go that route.


----------



## aszkid

Weston said:


> I am looking for a recording (preferably already in mp3 format because I am impatient) of the Requiem -- the complete work. The bit used in 2001: a space odyssey is spine tingling, but I get the impression that is only a small portion of it. Is there more?
> 
> I would also like the Concerto for Chamber orchestra (I believe there is a record by Reinbert de Leeuw?). If these are on the same album that would be superb!
> 
> I am frustrated searching for works on Amazon and on my Rhapsody account because they think all the piece titles are "Andante," "Allegro molto," etc.  I suppose I could go through Allmusic . . .
> 
> On second thought - it looks like they are all on The Ligeti Project boxed set from Teldec, $31.84 from Amazon. Maybe I should go that route.


The Ligeti Project has the Requiem, the Chamber Concerto, the Piano, Violin and Hamburg concertos, Atmosphères, the Cello Concerto, Nouvelles Aventures, Artikulation, Musica Ricercata... it's a good collection


----------



## aleazk

Weston said:


> I am looking for a recording (preferably already in mp3 format because I am impatient) of the Requiem -- the complete work. The bit used in 2001: a space odyssey is spine tingling, but I get the impression that is only a small portion of it. Is there more?
> 
> I would also like the Concerto for Chamber orchestra (I believe there is a record by Reinbert de Leeuw?). If these are on the same album that would be superb!
> 
> I am frustrated searching for works on Amazon and on my Rhapsody account because they think all the piece titles are "Andante," "Allegro molto," etc.  I suppose I could go through Allmusic . . .
> 
> On second thought - it looks like they are all on The Ligeti Project boxed set from Teldec, $31.84 from Amazon. Maybe I should go that route.


Yes, there's more!. . 
The sections used in 2001 are from the second movement ("Kyrie") only. The full piece has four movements: I-Introitus; II-Kyrie; III-Dies irae; IV-Lacrimosa.
The fourth disc of the Ligeti project has the Requiem conducted by Nott.
If you want a full Ligeti collection, buy the _Ligeti Project_ (Teldec), the _Ligeti Edition_ (Sony), and _Clear or Cloudy_ (DG).


----------



## Weston

Well. I'm a bit bowled over to have discovered after many decades how to pronounce this composer's name. I never imagined it would just wind up being "George." 

http://www.forvo.com/word/gy%C3%B6rgy_s%C3%A1ndor_ligeti/

I was hoping for something more exotic I guess.


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Wergo has some of the best Ligeti recordings available, best version of the requiem and chamber concerto I have heard.


----------



## starthrower

Has anyone written a good book on the life and music of Ligeti? I found a few titles at Amazon by authors Toop, Duchesneau, and Steinitz. All are quite expensive. If any of these authors have more than a superficial understanding of the man and his music, I'd appreciate your opinions. Thanks!


----------



## aleazk

starthrower said:


> Has anyone written a good book on the life and music of Ligeti? I found a few titles at Amazon by authors Toop, Duchesneau, and Steinitz. All are quite expensive. If any of these authors have more than a superficial understanding of the man and his music, I'd appreciate your opinions. Thanks!


I want to buy "György Ligeti: Of Foreign Lands and Strange Sounds", by Louise Duchesneau (Editor), Wolfgang Marx (Editor).
Duchesneau was Ligeti's assistant in his last 20 years.
The book is a collection of short essays, each one written by a person very close to Ligeti (students, friends, colleagues, etc.). Each essay covers a specific topic. 
You can have a free preview in Google Books: http://books.google.com.ar/books/about/György_Ligeti.html?id=g90j-4aTPuwC&redir_esc=y
I found it very interesting (can be a little technical sometimes, though). Sometimes you can feel the force of his personality as if you were talking with him. No idealization, just the composer's personality as was perceived by the people who was close to him. 
But the book is very expensive!. I don't know when I'm going to buy it.
The review (in the comments section) in Amazon is pretty accurate.


----------



## aleazk

Ligeti and Aimard working on Ligeti's latest (at that time) piano étude, Pour Irine (Irine was the wife of the pianist at that time):






A wonderful mess he had in his apartment!


----------



## science

View attachment 43805


I really love this recording of Ligeti's violin concerto. A great pleasure to listen to!


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## arpeggio

*Denk at Ojai*

Like I mentioned in another thread I attended the Ojai music festival and heard Jeremy Denk perform the Ligeti _Piano Etudes_.


----------



## KenOC

arpeggio said:


> Like I mentioned in another thread I attended the Ojai music festival and heard Jeremy Denk perform the Ligeti _Piano Etudes_.


Did you hear Stucky/Denk's new opera?


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## BurningDesire

Ligeti really was an incredible genius of music. A great and admirable artist of immense skill and imagination.


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## arpeggio

*Working on Post*



KenOC said:


> Did you hear Stucky/Denk's new opera?


My wife and I attended the entire festival including nine concerts and all of the panel discussions. They played all sorts of music from jazz to Back to Ligeti. We thoroughly enjoyed ourselves and we thought all of the music was great

I am working on an extensive draft of my visit. Unlike most of the members I am a weak writer and I want to get it right.  When I complete it I will probably post everything in a separate thread.


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## KenOC

arpeggio said:


> When I complete it I will probably post everything in a separate thread.


Thanks, look forward to it.


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## Dustin

I listened to my first Ligeti piece last night, his piano concerto. After hearing that, my radio static sounded like a Mozart violin concerto. Wow is that some dissonant/chaotic stuff. Not sure if or when that might be able to grow on me. I do however like Penderecki's chaotic sounding pieces like his Threnody to the victims... and Polymorphia. Maybe one day I'll come around to Ligeti.


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## violadude

Dustin said:


> I listened to my first Ligeti piece last night, his piano concerto. After hearing that, my radio static sounded like a Mozart violin concerto. Wow is that some dissonant/chaotic stuff. Not sure if or when that might be able to grow on me. I do however like Penderecki's chaotic sounding pieces like his Threnody to the victims... and Polymorphia. Maybe one day I'll come around to Ligeti.


Just so you know, the chaotic sound found in Ligeti's piano concerto comes from a very different place than those Penderecki pieces you listed. The Penderecki pieces are built around timbre and Penderecki using unconventional means to explore unheard soundworlds. Ligeti had a period like that earlier when he wrote Atmospheres. But the Piano Concerto is very different. It's based mostly on complex polyrhythms and that's where the "noise" comes from, rather than the exploration of timbre. Try listening again but pay close attention to the individual voices. Often there will be a theme in multiple instruments being played at different tempi (or sounding as if they are playing at different tempi).


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## aleazk

I wrote some blog entries on this piece, if anyone is interested.

(yikes, I know that sounds like shameless self-promotion, but, in my defence, what's the point in writing a detailed answer here if I already did that in the blog? :trp


----------



## Dustin

violadude said:


> Just so you know, the chaotic sound found in Ligeti's piano concerto comes from a very different place than those Penderecki pieces you listed. The Penderecki pieces are built around timbre and Penderecki using unconventional means to explore unheard soundworlds. Ligeti had a period like that earlier when he wrote Atmospheres. But the Piano Concerto is very different. It's based mostly on complex polyrhythms and that's where the "noise" comes from, rather than the exploration of timbre. Try listening again but pay close attention to the individual voices. Often there will be a theme in multiple instruments being played at different tempi (or sounding as if they are playing at different tempi).


Good to know. That thought crossed my mind as well but I couldn't explain the reasoning(polyrhythms vs timbre) like you did. I won't give up on it and I'll give it a few more listens. Because I know as well as anyone you've got to put in the time on some pieces.

And aleazk thanks I might give those a look.


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## Morimur

If you listen to any complex music long enough, it eventually ceases to be impenetrable. Ligeti is a great pleasure to listen to.


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## Blake

Morimur said:


> If you listen to any complex music long enough, it eventually ceases to be impenetrable. Ligeti is a great pleasure to listen to.


Yea, Ligeti and Xenakis are the last of the big names that I'm trying to reel in. Haven't quite got it, but I enjoy a good challenge.


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## hpowders

Morimur said:


> If you listen to any complex music long enough, it eventually ceases to be impenetrable. Ligeti is a great pleasure to listen to.


Yes. I kept listening to Schoenberg's Piano Concerto, over and over, for weeks. Now I love it.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

hpowders said:


> Yes. I kept listening to Schoenberg's Piano Concerto, over and over, for weeks. Now I love it.


I loved it right from when I heard Emmanuel Ax discuss it on a radio program.

But I prefer Ligeti's Piano Concerto obviously.


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## Vronsky

I love to listen Ligeti while I'm reading (especialy Ligeti - Requiem and Doctor Faustus by Christopher Marlowe), it creates amazing atmosphere.


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## Mandryka

What is the best recording of the sonata for solo viola?


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## Autocrat

Mandryka said:


> What is the best recording of the sonata for solo viola?


Not sure about best, but I've listened to Suzanne van Els and it is very good. Challenging piece if you're only used to equal semitones.


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## Mandryka

I much prefer the viola sonata to most all the other small scale pieces I've heard from him, apart the second quartet maybe.


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## aajj

Morimur said:


> *If you listen to any complex music long enough, it eventually ceases to be impenetrable.* Ligeti is a great pleasure to listen to.


One of the great pleasures of listening to extremely modern and "difficult" music, whether John Coltrane's Meditations or Ligeti's concertos. The mish-mash reveals itself in form and logic.


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## Guest

Dustin said:


> I listened to my first Ligeti piece last night, his piano concerto. After hearing that, my radio static sounded like a Mozart violin concerto. Wow is that some dissonant/chaotic stuff. Not sure if or when that might be able to grow on me. I do however like Penderecki's chaotic sounding pieces like his Threnody to the victims... and Polymorphia. Maybe one day I'll come around to Ligeti.


Try his solo piano Etudes. I don't think you'll think "static."


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## aajj

Melodien is another i would describe as non-static.


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## Manxfeeder

I was at my used CD store and found Pierre Boulez's recording of the violin, piano, and cello concertos. It turns out I have these pieces already but recorded by the Schoenberg Ensemble.

I'm not familiar enough with these pieces to know a good from a great interpretation; I'm just wondering, do I keep both of these or bring Boulez back?


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## starthrower

Depends on how big a fan you are of those works. I'm huge fan of the violin concerto, and I have three recordings. I really like the cello concerto as well, and I have two recordings. The violin concerto on Chandos by Christina Astrand may be the best one yet?


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## violadude

gog said:


> Try his solo piano Etudes. I don't think you'll think "static."


The piano etudes are a very good way to become more familiar with the types of ideas that Ligeti incorporates into his piano concerto.


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## Manxfeeder

starthrower said:


> Depends on how big a fan you are of those works. I'm huge fan of the violin concerto, and I have three recordings. I really like the cello concerto as well, and I have two recordings. The violin concerto on Chandos by Christina Astrand may be the best one yet?


I've just been concentrating on the piano concerto, and to my ears, Boulez's conducting is awful compared to de Leeuw. I don't know if his recordings of the violin and cello concertos are good enough to keep the CD. I've got until the end of January to throw this fish back and get a refund.


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## starthrower

I'll have to revisit both piano concerto recordings. I haven't listened to them in a while.


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## Manxfeeder

starthrower said:


> I'll have to revisit both piano concerto recordings. I haven't listened to them in a while.


Of the three concertos, I've seen the most snide remarks about the piano concerto. It must be the ugly duckling of the three. But I'm getting to where I like it.


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## starthrower

Manxfeeder said:


> Of the three concertos, I've seen the most snide remarks about the piano concerto. It must be the ugly duckling of the three. But I'm getting to where I like it.


Just finished listening to the Teldec recording, and I'm stunned into amazement. First off, it sounds like a fiendishly difficult piece to perform, and kudos to any conductor who has the balls to get on the podium and conduct this monster! This could easily turn into the greatest train wreck in modern music history. But happily, this ensemble is incredible, and everything sounds very organized and together. And it's performed with such confidence and gusto.

I don't think it's ugly at all. I've never heard anything quite like it. A fantastic piece of music, imo. And these similar thoughts are usually running through my mind when listening to Ligeti. I just feel like he was one of the most intelligent and creative composers ever.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

"Continuum" for harpsichord is truly astonishing. How anyone can play that fast I have no idea.


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## SilverSurfer

MoonlightSonata said:


> "Continuum" for harpsichord is truly astonishing. How anyone can play that fast I have no idea.


In fact, it must be played _"prestissimo, as fast as possible"_ to achieve the goal of the score, so you can find versions from less than 3' to around 5'.
I suggest to listen to it joint with its "sisters" Hungarian rock and Passacaglia hongarese, sometimes recorded together.


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## starthrower

Manxfeeder said:


> I was at my used CD store and found Pierre Boulez's recording of the violin, piano, and cello concertos. It turns out I have these pieces already but recorded by the Schoenberg Ensemble.
> 
> I'm not familiar enough with these pieces to know a good from a great interpretation; I'm just wondering, do I keep both of these or bring Boulez back?


Listening to both recordings of the 1st movement of the piano concerto, I much prefer the Teldec version. The sound is much warmer and full bodied, and the performance sounds cleaner and more articulate. The DG recording sounds bright and thin by comparison, and it makes the music appear more chaotic and less defined.


----------



## Weston

dogen said:


> Try his solo piano Etudes. I don't think you'll think "static."


Necroposting a bit here to ask if there is a preferred version of the Etudes. I like the few that I've heard but they are not in currently my collection. I see two or three available.


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## starthrower

The Jeremy Dank CD has better sound, but it's not complete. I'd definitely get the Aimard on Sony for the great performances.


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## Albert7

Ligeti you are awesome. Just picked up two more albums from you this week.

Did you invent spaghetti?


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## isorhythm

Aimard is pretty much considered authoritative. I've heard him play some of these live a couple times, and I have his recording.

I've listened to some of Denk's recording, which is good, but I still prefer Aimard.


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## BartokPizz

Also Denk leaves off the final etude of the second set, for unclear reasons.


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## Weston

Aimard it is. Many thanks.


----------



## chalkpie

starthrower said:


> Just finished listening to the Teldec recording, and I'm stunned into amazement. First off, it sounds like a fiendishly difficult piece to perform, and kudos to any conductor who has the balls to get on the podium and conduct this monster! This could easily turn into the greatest train wreck in modern music history. But happily, this ensemble is incredible, and everything sounds very organized and together. And it's performed with such confidence and gusto.
> 
> I don't think it's ugly at all. I've never heard anything quite like it. A fantastic piece of music, imo. And these similar thoughts are usually running through my mind when listening to Ligeti. I just feel like he was one of the most intelligent and creative composers ever.


The Piano Concerto is top 10 Ligeti for me - and I know most of his stuff pretty well. An amazing piece of music. Ugly duckling? Don't think so. Rhythmic masterpiece? That is indisputable.


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## Cheyenne

I love Ligeti's Piano Concerto, it started an amazing journey through 20th century piano concerto masterpieces I don't regret one bit.


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## Vaneyes

Wiget/Eotvos for me.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

Just happened to remember how ruefully nostalgic the violin concerto is.


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## aleazk

http://www.explorethescore.org/györgy-ligeti-piano-works.html

Goldmine of Ligeti things, including: Aimard playing some pieces with interactive scores and talking about his work with György himself.


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## rsikora

My favorite piece ever: Apparitions.
I heard this one when I was 10 years old and it has to be the most startling piece I've ever heard. That's when I fell in love with serial music. 
Also, thumbs up for Requiem, atmospheres, lontano, san Francisco polyphony, double concerto, cello concerto, ramifications, aventures, novelles adventures, piano concerto and le grand macabre. Those are my most favorites so far.


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## starthrower

I'm enjoying Clocks and Clouds these days. And all of the concertos are fantastic! If I could listen to only one violin concerto for the rest of my life, it would be Ligeti's. If I was allowed two, I'd add Schoenberg's by Hilary Hahn.


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## brotagonist

^ There'd be a lot of others I'd sneak in and not tell anyone about, though :devil:


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## rsikora

I have a few recordings of Ligeti Apparitions:
Jonathon Nott (Berlin Philharmonic)
Peter Eotvos (wdr symphony orchestra)
Leon Botstein (American symphony orchestra)

Are any other recordings of Apparitions out there?


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## Vaneyes

Re Apparitions.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/673511194813140993
https://books.google.ca/books?id=uz...QgaMAA#v=onepage&q=ligeti apparitions&f=false


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## isorhythm

What do people think about this quote, from a 1993 interview with Manfred Stahnke? I know it's been discussed here before, but not productively; I'm hoping we might do better in the dedicated Ligeti thread. I'm thinking about this stuff, of course, in light of all the arguing about Boulez's legacy.



> When I think of the avant-garde I have this image in my head: I am sitting in an airplane, the sky is blue and I see a landscape. And the plane flies into a cloud: everything is grey-white. At first the grey seems interesting if you compare it to the earlier landscape, but it soon becomes monotonous. I then fly out of the cloud and again see the landscape, which has completely changed in the meantime.
> 
> I believe that we have flown into such a cloud of high entropy and great disorder, particularly because of Schoenberg and the Viennese school but also due to the post-war generation in Darmstadt and Cologne - to which I more or less belonged. The instant I emerge out of the cloud I see, and this being very critical, that the music we wrote was in fact rather ugly. With 'we' I mean my generation, myself included. This ugly music was a consequence of twelve-tone music, of total chromaticism.
> 
> It is for this reason that I experiment with hybrid systems, as you also do, rather than with dogmatic or puristic ones.


More context in the Google Books preview: link

One obvious question is which of his own pieces he's talking about. (I think we can roughly guess which of his colleagues' pieces he's talking about.)

A deeper question is whether we should take this statement seriously, or just see it as the run-of-the-mill statement of a composer whose aesthetic had changed looking back.


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## Mahlerian

Ligeti said a good deal in his writings about having lost faith in total chromaticism, but look at the pieces from that era that have survived, including many of those by his colleagues.

I don't find anything more beautiful about Ligeti's Piano Concerto than his Atmospheres, for instance, and I certainly find his Horn Trio less beautiful than Le marteau sans maitre.


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## isorhythm

Mahlerian said:


> Ligeti said a good deal in his writings about having lost faith in total chromaticism, but look at the pieces from that era that have survived, including many of those by his colleagues.
> 
> I don't find anything more beautiful about Ligeti's Piano Concerto than his Atmospheres, for instance, and I certainly find his Horn Trio less beautiful than Le marteau sans maitre.


I'm not sure he meant to include _Le marteau_ in this critique (though maybe he did - I wish he'd been more specific).

To me, his 60s works are pretty different from what his Darmstadt colleagues were doing, though I know some people have argued otherwise - to the point where I wonder if his "myself included" here is false self-deprecation.

Edit: Ligeti's openly critical analysis of Boulez's _Structures Ia_ was published in 1958. It seems like he was _never_ really on board with this stuff.


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## Mahlerian

isorhythm said:


> I'm not sure he meant to include _Le marteau_ in this critique (though maybe he did - I wish he'd been more specific).
> 
> To me, his 60s works are pretty different from what his Darmstadt colleagues were doing, though I know some people have argued otherwise - to the point where I wonder if his "myself included" here is false self-deprecation.
> 
> Edit: Ligeti's openly critical analysis of Boulez's _Structures Ia_ was published in 1958. It seems like he was _never_ really on board with this stuff.


Yes, but Structures is hardly a defining work of total chromaticism, and it certainly doesn't represent Boulez's or any other Darmstadt composer's output as a whole.

I think you are right insofar as Ligeti was always an outsider to that period's most radical leanings, but in the Sony set's booklet he mentions several times that in the 1970s he, along with others, turned away from total chromaticism and reevaluated his language. I think it is from this perspective that he is making those comments.


----------



## Jeffrey Smith

Mahlerian said:


> Ligeti said a good deal in his writings about having lost faith in total chromaticism, but look at the pieces from that era that have survived, including many of those by his colleagues.
> 
> I don't find anything more beautiful about Ligeti's Piano Concerto than his Atmospheres, for instance, and I certainly find his Horn Trio less beautiful than Le marteau sans maitre.


Aargh! Le Marteau is among the ugliest pieces of music I have heard...the later the better is the rule for Boulez for me.
But as the French almost say, _chaconne a son gout_

As for the piano concerto, I like the DG recording with Aimard. But there is a new entry I like very much for all three of the included concertos


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## aleazk

isorhythm said:


> What do people think about this quote, from a 1993 interview with Manfred Stahnke? I know it's been discussed here before, but not productively; I'm hoping we might do better in the dedicated Ligeti thread. I'm thinking about this stuff, of course, in light of all the arguing about Boulez's legacy.
> 
> More context in the Google Books preview: link
> 
> One obvious question is which of his own pieces he's talking about. (I think we can roughly guess which of his colleagues' pieces he's talking about.)
> 
> A deeper question is whether we should take this statement seriously, or just see it as the run-of-the-mill statement of a composer whose aesthetic had changed looking back.


I read that book some time ago, I highly recommend it. In it, one can see how complex, intricate, and often contradictory, were Ligeti's idiosyncrasies.

We know Ligeti always considered himself an outsider in the avant-garde group of the 60s. So, it's related to some of that.

But to me, and after thinking about it for a while, I think an important fact to keep in mind is the date in which these opinions were emitted. In the case of this Ligeti interview: 1993, i.e., when he was fully committed to his new style. So, I see pretty much of the emphasis related to his satisfaction in having found a style that allowed him to 'escape', as he puts it, from some (some, not all) of the traditional avant-garde ideas (as curious as that phrase may sound). Mix that with his early critiques, and there you have it.

In general, artists change their styles and, very often, they come to hate their previous styles. And this is to some extent understandable from their point of view. But, we, as mere spectators, have the luxury of having the possibility of a more cold blooded approach.

The problem, to me, with aesthetic remarks is that they often sound monolithic (and they are shouted in this way by artists). But, if you, like I do, see aesthetic styles in art as something in constant change and evolution, constantly being influenced by the changes in the environment (both in the art world and the general world), then you start to read those remarks much more clearly.

Boulez once said 'blow up the opera houses', 'if you don't use the 12-method you are useless', 'Schoenberg is dead', 'eliminate the composer from the piece', etc. To me, without the date, those phrases are meaningless. Of course, we know that Boulez said those things in his enfant-terrible epoch. And you know what: if I had been there, I would had been in total agree with him.

Decades later, Boulez went on and 'contradicted', with his actions (and in some of his writings), each of those phrases. And you know what: if I had been there, I would had been in total agree with him. It's absolutely preposterous to pretend that an artist should answer, decades later, for aesthetic remarks made in the distant past. And this is because, as I said before, those aesthetic remarks (or adherence, in the case of Ligeti) are completely tied to their time.


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## aleazk

isorhythm said:


> I'm not sure he meant to include _Le marteau_ in this critique (though maybe he did - I wish he'd been more specific).
> 
> To me, his 60s works are pretty different from what his Darmstadt colleagues were doing, though I know some people have argued otherwise - to the point where I wonder if his "myself included" here is false self-deprecation.
> 
> Edit: Ligeti's openly critical analysis of Boulez's _Structures Ia_ was published in 1958. It seems like he was _never_ really on board with this stuff.


Remember that he studied electronic music with Stockhausen in Cologne. Also, Ligeti used to write articles about serialism in that epoch. On the other hand, even if in pieces like Atmospheres he doesn't use the 12-tone method, the total chromaticism as well as the total departure from traditional ideas about form, melody, etc., can be considered 'in line' with the radical avant-garde tone of the times.

In the same book, it's mentioned how, even well into his late style, Ligeti still many times started by writing a 12-tone row in order to find interesting harmonic developments. I think some of those rows are explicitly written down in the book following his messy manuscripts (even for important late pieces, like the violin concerto).


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## PeterFromLA

Well, for every Boulez and Stockhausen there were dozens of slavish imitators whose productions were far less brilliant. I imagine he had the minions in mind more than the top drawer creative talents like Berio, Nono, Boulez, and Stockhausen.


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## isorhythm

PeterFromLA said:


> Well, for every Boulez and Stockhausen there were dozens of slavish imitators whose productions were far less brilliant. I imagine he had the minions in mind more than the top drawer creative talents like Berio, Nono, Boulez, and Stockhausen.


I don't think so. In context, I think he meant specifically to implicate the top tier.

aleazk, I want to read that book, but it's not easy to find. My public library has it, but only in a research collection where you can't take it out. It doesn't seem to be for sale at a reasonable price anywhere.


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## aleazk

isorhythm said:


> I don't think so. In context, I think he meant specifically to implicate the top tier.
> 
> aleazk, I want to read that book, but it's not easy to find. My public library has it, but only in a research collection where you can't take it out. It doesn't seem to be for sale at a reasonable price anywhere.


I agree, he was indeed attacking the big fishes. Stockhausen, in particular. He only liked ealier Stockhausen. His relation with Boulez seems a little more complex. They knew each other from the Darmstadt times and I think even earlier in Stockhasen's studio in Cologne. Then Ligeti sharply criticized the very strict integral serialism of Structures. According to Ligeti, Boulez was furious and never spoke to him until the late seventies! 'I was simply non-existent to him' Ligeti said. But then Boulez started to conduct some Ligeti pieces in the seventies, like Lontano and the Kammerkonzert. According to Ligeti, it was thanks to this that he became famous in France and so he was very grateful. In the 80's and 90's, they became very close friends and musical colaborators. Both highly respected each other and praised the music of the other.

Yeah, the price of the book is forbidding. I actually never read it completelty, just bits and bits in googlebooks until I read a considerable portion of the book (if you clear the cookies, the pages you can see in the preview also change, but the trick is limited; hey! what can a poor man, but obsessed with Ligeti, do!)

----------

Expanding a bit on things I said before. I think that Ligeti's harmonic language remained quite chromatic in general. Of course, he achieves chromaticism in different ways, but the result is still superficially similar to serialism (the first time I listened to the fourth movement of the Piano Concerto, these unrefined ears thought it was integral serialism!)

I think the real departure with respect to the avant-garde is in melody and rhythm. In the hardcore 50's, 60's, to compose a melody in a more or less traditional sense was basically a sin. Ligeti's late period tries to look back at tradition and to incorporate some more traditional melodic approach. Maybe he had that in mind with this beauty stuff (e.g., the introduction in the second movement of the violin concerto). In rhythm, well, that's a topic by itself. The rhythmic textures can sound as complex as the ones of the serialists. I would say that the point of departure is the incorporation of the african idea of a basic unit pulse, which connects the music with more traditional, and even popular music, because of the 'swing' feel it can have sometimes.


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## PeterFromLA

It's possible Ligeti was alluding to the top tier, but it is also the case that Ligeti was teaching at Darmstadt until 1970 and was likely exposed to reams of sub-par work "inspired" by the likes of Boulez, Stockhausen, and Ligeti himself. Until I read Ligeti commenting specifically about the leaders of the school, I'm not persuaded by the interpretation.


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## aleazk

I think this whole interview is quite interesting:


----------



## aleazk

PeterFromLA said:


> It's possible Ligeti was alluding to the top tier, but it is also the case that Ligeti was teaching at Darmstadt until 1970 and was likely exposed to reams of sub-par work "inspired" by the likes of Boulez, Stockhausen, and Ligeti himself. Until I read Ligeti commenting specifically about the leaders of the school, I'm not persuaded by the interpretation.


I remember one interview with John Tusa for the BBC (from 2001) in which he said something on the lines of "I was never interested in the political power struggles of Stockhausen and Kagel" and statements like that. Or "being against dogmas", etc. He was clearly against the strict integral serialism that Boulez once (briefly, compared to his whole career) defended (as it's clear in his famous essay in which he analized Structures 1a in great detail).


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## isorhythm

He also liked pop music, which would be totally unacceptable to Stockhausen and Boulez.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms

In some ways late Ligeti is more modern than chromatic cluster Ligeti. I still prefer the latter.


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## Vaneyes

The Guardian 2.2.16, and some archival material.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/02/from-the-classical-archive-gyorgy-ligeti-interveiw-1974


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## lextune

I am a big fan of Ligeti.

I love his piano music, Le Grand Macabre, and many other works of his.

....this is fun...


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## Guest

lextune said:


> I am a big fan of Ligeti.
> 
> I love his piano music, Le Grand Macabre, and many other works of his.
> 
> ....this is fun...


I like it,thank for posting.


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## lextune

I'm glad you like it. Honestly I don't see how any music fan can fail to like it.

I was so delighted by the Six Bagatelles for Wind Quintet to begin with, add to that this Quintet's great work, and the interesting video, and it is just a total win.


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## Guest

I like wind music,(play the clarinet myself) and this early work of Ligety could be an easy entrance in his music,it is realy beautiful.


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## Guest

I have just listened to the DG recording of the Bagatelles and I realy am in favor for the Carion wind Quintet.
I have not find it on cd..?


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## PeterFromLA

Ligeti delayed publication of the Musica Ricercata (from which the wind quintet movements are arranged) for years, allowing its publication only in the mid-1970s, if memory serves. The first complete recording (on the Swedish label bis, circa 1975) was performed from the manuscript, rather than a printed score. It's a great work, and it's a mystery to me why it (as well as what came to be known as the First String Quartet... what we now call the Second String Quartet was once known only as "String Quartet: see the original LP cover on which its included) was withheld for so long...

More tantalizing still are the unfinished 3rd and 4th String Quartets, which were intended for The Arditti and Kronos Quartets, respectively. You can learn more about them here: http://web.archive.org/web/20161117160037/https://www.paul-sacher-stiftung.ch/dam/jcr:d793e410-7498-4e2c-b720-b1f7937dba93/mitteilungen_der_paul_pacher_sacher_stiftung_25_bianca_tiplea_temes.pdf


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## starthrower

Too bad Ligeti wasn't afforded a hundred years like Carter. Another handful of masterpieces would have been quite welcome!


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## jegreenwood

A few years back I decided to sample (perhaps after enjoying Polyphonia at City Ballet), I bought a DG set of 4 CDs of Ligeti's music - their complete releases according to the booklet. Some of it I enjoyed, some of it I appreciated. I never thought I would enjoy the micropolyphonic soundscapes (my word choice). Then last night I listened to "Lux Aeterna." All of a sudden that was the only type of music I wanted to hear. I listened to Atmospheres and Organ Studies #1, before I moved on.


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## Janspe

Listening to _Le grand macabre_ is quite a ride. I'm fully convinced that it is one of the best operas I have ever heard!

I've been engaging myself with Ligeti's music a lot recently, making my way through all of his works - those that I could find a recording of, that is. What a great composer! So many pieces full of incredible wit, intelligence, humor and mastery of craft. His works constitute an amazing oeuvre of staggering virtuosity; he truly was searching for new ways of expression till the very end.


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## Sid James

Recently reading *Andrew Ford's *collection of articles on music _Try Whistling This_ (2013), I came across an interesting argument regarding Ligeti. Ford sees him as being part of the trend which saw a move away from dogmatic modernism and towards real plurality in music. Here's a long extract from the article _*Modernism Down the Years*_, originally published in 2003. I think it also provides a good summary of Ligeti's career:

"It could be that the most significant figure of the second half of the twentieth century turns out to have been Gyorgy Ligeti, who sucessfully and with great naturalness drew inspiration from both abstract calculation and vernacular musics. Born in 1925, Ligeti had three bites at the modernist cherry. First, in his native Hungary during the 1950s, he fell under the spell of Bartok. By this point, Bartok's music was scarcely at the cutting edge. The composer had died in exile in 1945, and his later works, such as the Concerto for Orchestra, had fully synthesised the earlier folk influence. But if Ligeti's initial interest in modernism came via aping the later, tamer style of his hero, in the 1960s he invented an entirely new musical style.

I choose my words carefully here: there really was no precursor of what became known as 'micropolyphony.' By now himself in exile, Ligeti began to create massive orchestral scores. The pieces were quite short, but typically every instrument in the orchestra had its own individual part. In such a work, all the violins might have lines that resemble each other but are not exactly the same. When they all play together, then, the individual details become lost in a gorgeous smudge of sound. There are several works in this much imitated style, with Lontano (1967) being perhaps the greatest and most beautiful. And it is significant that words such as 'gorgeous' and 'beautiful' can be used without fear of contradiction. There may be modernist calculation behind the composer's choices, but there is abundant sensuality in the end result.

To have composed such music would automatically qualify Ligeti for a significant place in the pantheon, but in the early 1980s he invented another new style. Once again the music was boldly original, although this time it was possible to spot some of the influences. In no particular order, these were Ligeti's reading of the literature on chaos theory, the music of sub-Saharan Africa, and the wildly intricate and jazzy player-piano studies of Conlon Nancarrow, an American long-based in Mexico City. In Ligeti's Piano Concerto (1985-88) and in the solo-piano Etudes that come before and after it, the composer created what in 1952 had been unthinkable. This music was certainly new. And it was complex, rhythmically as complex as anything in Boulez's Structures. But it was also full of familiar things: motor rhythms piled on top of each other, tunes and fragments of tunes, simple melodic cells that resembled bits of folksongs but that proliferated like fractals.

So is Ligeti's Piano Concerto modernist? In the broadest sense, yes. Ligeti is a modernist in the same way that Machaut and Monteverdi, Beethoven and Stravinsky were modernists: like those composers, he is an instinctive innovator, imagining types of music that nobody has previously imagined. This is really the only modernism that has ever mattered, and it is the sort of modernism that will never go away. In the context of the hard-line, dogmatic modernism of the 1950s avant-garde, of course, Ligeti's concerto doesn't fit at all. For one thing, and despite its complexity, it has become rather popular. In contrast, the post-war avant-garde had no hits. But then why would a work from the mid 1980s fit a 1950s definition of modernism? That decade of serial austerity was modernism's classical period, and Ligeti served his apprenticeship there (he even wrote a painstaking analysis of Boulez's Structures Ia). I think one might argue that this apprenticeship made possible his late pieces. But an artist that can find equal inspiration in fractals and pygmy music (not to mention the work of Lewis Carroll) is by nature no hardliner. Anyway, by the end of the twentieth century, the hardliners were elsewhere."


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## starthrower

Sid James? A voice from the past.


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## Guest

starthrower said:


> Too bad Ligeti wasn't afforded a hundred years like Carter. Another handful of masterpieces would have been quite welcome!


Yes, they would have been. Naturally, I would want more solo piano works.


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## staxomega

Any suggestions for exceptional books on Ligeti? More interested in ones that focus on the music. Thanks.

Edit: I've been comparing and contrasting Arditti's first recording of the two string quartets against the later Sony one. I've grown up with the Sony so this is very much one that is in me, but their first recording is truly exceptional as well; something quite tense about their first recording.


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## PeterFromLA

Try Richard Steinitz's Gyorgy Ligeti: Music of the Imagination, published by Northeastern University Press.

Also an interview book: Gyorgy Ligeti in Conversation, by Peter Varnai, et al., published by Eulenberg Books (doesn't go much past his middle period, but it doesn't matter, it's a great book).

Finally, the essential Paul Griffiths, Gyorgy Ligeti, published by Robson Books.


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## John O

PeterFromLA said:


> Try Richard Steinitz's Gyorgy Ligeti: Music of the Imagination, published by Northeastern University Press.
> 
> Also an interview book: Gyorgy Ligeti in Conversation, by Peter Varnai, et al., published by Eulenberg Books (doesn't go much past his middle period, but it doesn't matter, it's a great book).
> 
> Finally, the essential Paul Griffiths, Gyorgy Ligeti, published by Robson Books.


There is also a book by Richard Toop "Gyorgy Ligeti" (good, but I think Steinitz is the best)
There is an interview on BBC with John Tusa (google it, available worldwide I think)
There are a couple of old documentaries in German on youtube.


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## John O

aleazk said:


> I read that book some time ago, I highly recommend it. In it, one can see how complex, intricate, and often contradictory, were Ligeti's idiosyncrasies.
> 
> We know Ligeti always considered himself an outsider in the avant-garde group of the 60s. So, it's related to some of that.
> 
> But to me, and after thinking about it for a while, I think an important fact to keep in mind is the date in which these opinions were emitted. In the case of this Ligeti interview: 1993, i.e., when he was fully committed to his new style. So, I see pretty much of the emphasis related to his satisfaction in having found a style that allowed him to 'escape', as he puts it, from some (some, not all) of the traditional avant-garde ideas (as curious as that phrase may sound). Mix that with his early critiques, and there you have it.
> 
> In general, artists change their styles and, very often, they come to hate their previous styles. And this is to some extent understandable from their point of view. But, we, as mere spectators, have the luxury of having the possibility of a more cold blooded approach.
> 
> The problem, to me, with aesthetic remarks is that they often sound monolithic (and they are shouted in this way by artists). But, if you, like I do, see aesthetic styles in art as something in constant change and evolution, constantly being influenced by the changes in the environment (both in the art world and the general world), then you start to read those remarks much more clearly.
> 
> Boulez once said 'blow up the opera houses', 'if you don't use the 12-method you are useless', 'Schoenberg is dead', 'eliminate the composer from the piece', etc. To me, without the date, those phrases are meaningless. Of course, we know that Boulez said those things in his enfant-terrible epoch. And you know what: if I had been there, I would had been in total agree with him.
> 
> Decades later, Boulez went on and 'contradicted', with his actions (and in some of his writings), each of those phrases. And you know what: if I had been there, I would had been in total agree with him. It's absolutely preposterous to pretend that an artist should answer, decades later, for aesthetic remarks made in the distant past. And this is because, as I said before, those aesthetic remarks (or adherence, in the case of Ligeti) are completely tied to their time.


I would say that like Bartok when he said something he honestly believed it (unlike say Stravinsky)


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