# Recommend me a HIP Beethoven symphonic cycle



## Llyranor

Okay, I've been looking into acquiring a new Beethoven cycle. I have a full cycle from Karajan, a few from Furtwangler, the Kleiber 5th. In the past, I've enjoyed the music, but never completely fallen in love with it except for the 5th and the 9th (the more accessible ones?). The 7th doesn't sell me as much, nor did the 3rd.

Recently, I purchased a CD of the 3rd with period instruments with Jody Savall and Le Concert Des Nations, and the intensity of it instantly captivated me - it felt like quite a revelation to me. I've listened to it many times since and still love it.
(Here's a sample 



 )

So, is there HIP cycle out that seems to match Savall's intensity? I've heard conflicting things about Bruggen, Gardiner, and Immerseel. So right now, I'm not sure which cycle to go for. I'm not looking for laid-back Beethoven, I'm looking for full-throttle Beethoven (for the appropriate symphonies, anyway).

Thanks!


----------



## KenOC

Gardiner/ORR.


----------



## mensch

I own a complete set of the symphonies by Nikolaus Harnoncourt and The Chamber Orchestra of Europe. While this is an historically informed performance, there are few period instruments involved, except for percussion and brass. Because it's such a small orchestra everything emanates a certain intimacy and certain melodic lines are much more clearer. 

I think the aforementioned characteristics are what attract me most to the HIP approach, as for the usage of period instruments I'm not so sure. Recently I went to a performance of Beethoven's fifth piano concerto and fourth symphony by Frans Brüggen and the Orchestra of the 18th Century. The fourth symphony was a great success, the piano concerto featured some stellar playing as well, not in the least by pianist Kristian Bezuidenhout. He played on a beautiful fortepiano, but the combination of the volume of the orchestra and the frail acoustics of the fortepiano didn't work so well at times. I got the feeling that the instrument was better suited in a smaller concert hall and as a solo instrument. At times you could see Bezuidenhout playing fervently but you didn't actually hear much of him. So the crystalline and more brilliant sound of a more modern concert grand might have been more appropriate in this case.


----------



## realdealblues

Full throttle Beethoven to me would be:

Gardiner (Mixed Modern & Period Instruments)
Hogwood (All Period Instruments)
Norrington (All Period Instruments)

I also seem to recall Zinman (Modern Instruments) being no slouch either, especially in Symphony 3 (3rd Movement maybe?)

Anyway, I'd listen to some clips on youtube or something like spotify and see which one fits you best. 

I just compared about 10 different cycles over the last month or so deciding which ones I personally liked the best. I was even trying to decide which recordings of which Symphonies I liked best with which Conductor, but so far I've only decided on Symphonies 1 & 2. Although I did decide for myself that Karajan's 60's cycle "overall" is the one I like best.


----------



## Ukko

Llyranor said:


> [...]
> Recently, I purchased a CD of the 3rd with period instruments with Jody Savall and Le Concert Des Nations, and the intensity of it instantly captivated me - it felt like quite a revelation to me. I've listened to it many times since and still love it.
> (Here's a sample
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> So, is there HIP cycle out that seems to match Savall's intensity?
> [...]


That Savall recording is of a unique creation, a startlingly effective HIP performance. It is no more intense than several other (non-HIP) recorded performances though. You may be conflating intensity with clarity to some extent; the 'reduced forces' can have that effect. For instance, compare the sextet version of _Transfigured Night_ with the chamber orchestra version.

There is also the consideration that some of the symphonies were not composed to be intense. No doubt you know which, so I won't be pointing at them.

_KenOC_'s suggestion is probably as good as any, for a HIP set.


----------



## Itullian

realdealblues said:


> Full throttle Beethoven to me would be:
> 
> Gardiner (Mixed Modern & Period Instruments)
> Hogwood (All Period Instruments)
> Norrington (All Period Instruments)
> 
> I also seem to recall Zinman (Modern Instruments) being no slouch either, especially in Symphony 3 (3rd Movement maybe?)
> 
> Anyway, I'd listen to some clips on youtube or something like spotify and see which one fits you best.
> 
> I just compared about 10 different cycles over the last month or so deciding which ones I personally liked the best. I was even trying to decide which recordings of which Symphonies I liked best with which Conductor, but so far I've only decided on Symphonies 1 & 2. Although I did decide for myself that Karajan's 60's cycle "overall" is the one I like best.


be sure to get the one in the red box. the re issue in the square white capbox is sonically inferior. the fullness and base is gone.


----------



## Ukko

_mensch_

"I think the aforementioned characteristics are what attract me most to the HIP approach, as for the usage of period instruments I'm not so sure. Recently I went to a performance of Beethoven's fifth piano concerto and fourth symphony by Frans Brüggen and the Orchestra of the 18th Century. The fourth symphony was a great success, the piano concerto featured some stellar playing as well, not in the least by pianist Kristian Bezuidenhout. He played on a beautiful fortepiano, but the combination of the volume of the orchestra and the frail acoustics of the fortepiano didn't work so well at times. I got the feeling that the instrument was better suited in a smaller concert hall and as a solo instrument. At times you could see Bezuidenhout playing fervently but you didn't actually hear much of him. So the crystalline and more brilliant sound of a more modern concert grand might have been more appropriate in this case."

I think this 'burial' of the piano results from the conductor's lack of understanding. The orchestra and soloist _can_ be in balance. The piano won't be nearly as forward as you are used to, but it can be heard.


----------



## realdealblues

Itullian said:


> be sure to get the one in the red box. the re issue in the square white capbox is sonically inferior. the fullness and base is gone.


Yeah, I have the Red & Gold Box Karajan and agree it is much better sounding than the newer issue.


----------



## millionrainbows

Llyranor said:


> So, is there HIP cycle out that seems to match Savall's intensity? I've heard conflicting things about Bruggen, Gardiner, and Immerseel. Thanks!


Absolutely, posolutely, gottaget the Gardiner. Sonically beautiful. Harnoncourt's is my second choice; you should be able to find that one dirt-cheap. Don't mind the crummy cover illiustration. Honorable mention, but not HIP: Rene Lebowitz, originally released as the Reader's Digest series. Engineered superbly.

----------------------->








--------------------------------->


----------



## mensch

Hilltroll72 said:


> _mensch_
> 
> "I think the aforementioned characteristics are what attract me most to the HIP approach, as for the usage of period instruments I'm not so sure. Recently I went to a performance of Beethoven's fifth piano concerto and fourth symphony by Frans Brüggen and the Orchestra of the 18th Century. The fourth symphony was a great success, the piano concerto featured some stellar playing as well, not in the least by pianist Kristian Bezuidenhout. He played on a beautiful fortepiano, but the combination of the volume of the orchestra and the frail acoustics of the fortepiano didn't work so well at times. I got the feeling that the instrument was better suited in a smaller concert hall and as a solo instrument. At times you could see Bezuidenhout playing fervently but you didn't actually hear much of him. So the crystalline and more brilliant sound of a more modern concert grand might have been more appropriate in this case."
> 
> I think this 'burial' of the piano results from the conductor's lack of understanding. The orchestra and soloist _can_ be in balance. The piano won't be nearly as forward as you are used to, but it can be heard.


Brüggen is famous as a conductor of historically informed performances so I'm not sure if a lack of understanding applies in this regard. That said, I haven't heard any of his renditions of other piano concertos, so it might well be that he's more comfortable conducting symphonic material.

The soloist was surrounded by the orchestra (I think this is something from the "olden days" as well), as opposed to the front position which is commonplace. I think the size of the concert hall and its acoustics were the main thing to contribute to the "burial".


----------



## realdealblues

millionrainbows said:


> Honorable mention, but not HIP: Rene Lebowitz, originally released as the Reader's Digest series. Engineered superbly.
> View attachment 10737


I actually just picked up that set and am looking forward to listening to it in the coming weeks.


----------



## millionrainbows

realdealblues said:


> I actually just picked up that set and am looking forward to listening to it in the coming weeks.


You can read about the engineer, Kenneth Wilkinson:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Wilkinson


----------



## realdealblues

millionrainbows said:


> You can read about the engineer, Kenneth Wilkinson:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Wilkinson


Interesting. It's funny many of my favorite recordings are on the Decca label with the "Decca sound". I always remarked to myself how great some of Decca's recordings sounded. I have most all of the Legendary Performances series.


----------



## Manxfeeder

realdealblues said:


> Yeah, I have the Red & Gold Box Karajan and agree it is much better sounding than the newer issue.


That's good to know. I just got the Red and Gold, then saw the new reissue, and I was wondering if I were missing some new sonic tweaking by not having the latest release. But I'm really happy with the Red and Gold box.


----------



## davinci

I don't know if these qualify as "intense" but have you heard Christopher Hogwood and The Academy of Ancient Music? I like it for it's period instruments and small orchestra.


----------



## Guest

I have two HIP cycles:

The Gardiner cycle that has already been mentioned is an excellent one. However, if you want HIP Beethoven on steroids, along with his overtures (it would be a crime to not have at least Coriolan and Egmont, although you could own some excellent non-HIP versions of those on the recordings of Beethoven's 9th from both von Karajan and Fricsay, which are outstanding recordings of the 9th in their own rite), then I suggest you go with Jos van Immerseel conducting Anima Eterna on the Zig Zag label. Very lean, mean Beethoven. Some of the swiftest tempos out there. They lose something that you are probably used to with other modern performances of Beethoven, but they are an interesting new takes.









Perhaps my favorite Beethoven symphony cycle, though, is that of Osmo Vanska with the Minnesota Symphony on the BIS label. I was told (and this may be wrong), that while modern instruments were used, the performance was HIP.


----------



## Ukko

DrMike said:


> View attachment 10779
> 
> [...]
> Perhaps my favorite Beethoven symphony cycle, though, is that of Osmo Vanska with the Minnesota Symphony on the BIS label. I was told (and this may be wrong), that while modern instruments were used, the performance was HIP.
> 
> View attachment 10780


Any recent performance pretty much has to be a Historically Informed Performance. Vanska has been exposed.


----------



## Itullian

Manxfeeder said:


> That's good to know. I just got the Red and Gold, then saw the new reissue, and I was wondering if I were missing some new sonic tweaking by not having the latest release. But I'm really happy with the Red and Gold box.


i have both. the r and g box is MUCH better.


----------



## davinci

Just bought the Harnoncourt cycle since reading this thread and it is double-plus-good. Excellent interpretation by Maestro Harnoncourt.
I also wanted to mention that Christopher Hogwood credits the musicians in the liner notes of his HIP cycle. Also includes the
maker of the instrument. ie: violas are Strads. 
Which raises the question, why don't orchestra members get credited on LPs/CDs? This has always bothered me.


----------



## Llyranor

Ok, after listening to some samples on youtube, I've opted to purchase the Gardiner set (cheaper!). I think I'll end up grabbing Immerseel and Bruggen later on after I've explored this set enough.


----------



## Vaneyes

DKB/P. Jarvi, modern instruments, minimal style, high energy.

YT LvB Symphony 8...


----------



## Llyranor

Ok, I now have the Gardiner and the Immerseel. Haven't gotten around to buying the Bruggen yet (it's pretty expensive! at least the reprint at arkivmusic is decently priced)

I like the Gardiner. It's nice sounding. However, it doesn't do anything more for me yet - though I haven't explored the set that deeply yet. Immerseel seems to be a winner for me so far, though. It's really connecting me to the music.


----------



## SixFootScowl

If only Benjamin Zander would complete a cycle. Seems his recording of symphonies 5 and 7 are pretty fast tempo, somewhere comparable to Zinman's.


----------



## Paulg

Please, what is HIP?


----------



## KenOC

Paulg said:


> Please, what is HIP?


HIP = Historically Informed Performance, often using instruments of the composer's time and/or echoing performance practices thought to have prevailed in those days.


----------



## Paulg

Thanks! And very timely as well.


----------



## Merl

On balance Immerseel's set is still my favourite HIP set but this will probably change by next week. I'm like that.


----------

