# Question about The Rite of Spring



## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

I have just picked up a copy of _The Rite of Spring_ score for solo piano and I am a bit floundered trying to analyse it.

Firstly, the rhythmic aspect is quite clear to see just looking at the score and listening to the music. The _Sacrificial Dance _section being the most extreme example with the meter changing after nearly every bar. Anyone can learn a lot from the use of unorthodox accents and time signatures.

It is the harmonic aspect that is giving me the most trouble. Parts of it, like the _Spring Rounds_ section seem quite tonal but a lot of the work is quite perplexing. I find this to be true with a lot of 20th century music. So what underlying harmonic system did Stravinsky use in the construction of this masterpiece? How did he organise the dissonances?

I have heard he used tetrachords built on the octatonic scale but am not sure exactly what this means. Does it mean he dissected the W-H or H-W diminished scale at points using the interval of a perfect fourth as a limit/template.

I want to learn how to compose in a modern idiom but seem to be stuck in a Classical/ Romantic style in regards to classical music. From the 1900's onwards classical music seems to get indecipherable to me, in terms of harmony. Brahms, Schumann, Beethoven whilst still very complex at times I can make sense of, but Ravel, Debussy, Richard Strauss and obviously Stravinsky and later composers are a bit of a mystery to me.

If anyone has studied music or has a great deal of knowledge on Stravinsky and his technique, all help would be greatly appreciated.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

he used polytonality at times.


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

I felt it an utter waste of time when I analysed Stravinsky. Such complexity draws you into the detail too much. I really don't think its possibly (or at least useful) to go across the top marking I, V, iib etc.
I'm afraid it might be harder than you think to reconcile a "modern idiom" with "classical/romantic style".


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

I agree slightly with Ignis, 

Prokofiev is about the limit for me


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

slightly


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Yes well not completely


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

After the first few bars it became obvious that Roman numerals would be no good here, but I would have thought Stravinsky had some method rather than just hearing these insane sounds in his head and putting them on paper.

Yeah, Prokofiev seems a bit tricky to me also. I analysed Peter and the Wolf thinking it would be simple as it was a piece intended for children but it was surprisingly complex. If I remember rightly it had a small section of polytonality dropped in there. I haven't even looked at his more complex piano pieces and orchestral works.

And I have no pretensions of trying to 'reconcile' Classical/Romantic styles with modern styles in my own compositions, it's just that I want to understand different viewpoints on music and escape from the diatonic cell I have built around myself. I also don't want to get stuck in the trap of using novel ideas and inventions just for the sake of it rather than whether or not I think it sounds good and benefits the piece.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

At least with Prokofiev it is still possible to use numerals in the majority of cases.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> At least with Prokofiev it is still possible to use numerals in the majority of cases.


That's true. This could have been because he lived in the Soviet Union and once Stalin became the leader music was seen as a tool to represent the workers and their struggle and experimentation was frowned upon. He and Shostakovich were both denounced in the Pravda for creating music that didn't fit the Communist ideal. Stravinsky however wrote his famous ballets before the October Revolution and so had more room to experiment. Actually, in the early years of the USSR under Lenin musicians and composers were encouraged to find a new style for the new nation. However, both Prokofiev and Shostakovich produced many masterpieces so it's hard to say what their music would have sounded like had they left for America or Western Europe ala Stravinksy.

Anyway, I digress.


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

Prokoviev did leave the USSR. But returned.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Returned at the wrong time unfortunately.


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## andruini (Apr 14, 2009)

I would look a lot into the whole atonal idea of interval cycles and start looking over The Rite for cycles, I think you'll find them all over it, in melodies and harmonies alike. And yeah, roman numerals are obsolete this time..  
I tried to do this last year, but I gave up. Analyzing The Rite is full time work, I think.


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/listeninglibrary.shtml
(scroll down to Rite of Spring)

I don't know why I never thought to mention this before.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Wow thanks Ignis Fatuus for the link, something like that I've been looking for a while!


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

Good old BBC giving away priceless help for free


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Ignis Fatuus said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/discoveringmusic/listeninglibrary.shtml
> (scroll down to Rite of Spring)
> 
> I don't know why I never thought to mention this before.


Thanks for that. I have listened to some of the shows before including Stravinksky's 1945 Firebird Suite one a few weeks ago but didn't realise the BBC archived all their stuff. I thought after 7 days and the programmes are not on the i-Player then you couldn't hear them again until they are repeated live. They don't go into massive amounts of detail but give a nice overview and brief analysis of the work. Definitely good of the Beeb to archive them.

So thanks and I'll have a listen to the Rite of Spring episodes when I get chance at weekend.

Also, I have recently acquired an LEA Pocket Score featuring Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias, his Italian Concerto and the Goldberg Variations, so the programmes on them should be of help to me too.


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

Argus said:


> I thought after 7 days and the programmes are not on the i-Player then you couldn't hear them again until they are repeated live.


It's all down to the whim of the copyright holders. The Wire isn't on iplayer at all, presumably to boost DVD sales. But the BBC produces Discovering Music themselves so they have the freedom to stick them all on the website. Occasionally, you'll come accross one where the full performance at the end is cut off, usually on more modern works.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Thanks, gonna check out the link now.


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

The Rite of Spring is mostly multiple keys running a the same time.

The famous chunk-chunk-chunk bit near the beginning is merely two dominant 7th chords. Almost the entire work is like this, usually two, sometimes three keys at the same time.

If you want to "write modern" I recommend doing what Stravinsky did. He wrote what he heard. Stravinsky wasn't writing modern. His ear was tuned to seconds, which is mainly what makes his music seem so dissonant compared to music that came before which was based on 3rds.

Write the chord you have in mind. Notate your melodies. Apply your dynamics. Let the rest take care of itself.

If you have a sound in mind that's not particularly dissonant as you go to compose, why would you force it? Write what you hear. If you begin to hear and understand modern dissonances, they'll make their way into your work. As you grow, your tonal vocabulary will enlarge, at which point you'll be in a better position to pick and chose those tonalities that speak to you and through you.

We live in an age where anything goes, as Cole Porter sang. As such, the very idea of "modern" is pretty much defunct. The role of the artist now is simply to be true. This is not to say that you can't pander and write music that sounds pretty close to Mozart. Heck, you can even lie in your art, as long as lying is true to you.

Does a consonant classical sound describe you? Does the most artificial, harsh, random assault on the eardrum ever imagined describe you? In either case, so be it. Anything goes. The only question an artist needs to ask himself is where he fits in.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Yes the chugging chords are a combination of E and F if i remember correctly.

Polytonality is the word.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

kmisho said:


> The Rite of Spring is mostly multiple keys running a the same time.
> 
> The famous chunk-chunk-chunk bit near the beginning is merely two dominant 7th chords. Almost the entire work is like this, usually two, sometimes three keys at the same time.
> 
> ...


Good post.

You make it sound so simple to create groundbreaking music like Stravinsky. That goes for most of the great innovative composers. If it was as easy as hearing something in your head and notating it then surely music, as an art, will not progress. How can one imagine something completely unlike what has been heard before? You can only learn and build on what has gone before, unless that is the mark of true genius.

For example, that section of the Rite you mentioned with the Eb dom7 over the Fb in 2/4. Did Stravinsky really just hear that from out of nowhere? He must have learnt from previous masters and the then current innovators to be able to imagine such things. It still used the division of the octave into twelve and rational horizontal organisation, and other common factors. This is because certain cultures ears have been 'tuned' differently by years of musical tradition. Stravinsky was no different. If he was born in Africa his music would have sounded completely different.

I agree with you about not trying to force your sound into a certain style. I think it was Miles Davis who said the hardest thing to do in music is to find your own sound and not try to ape someone else's. I don't see it as trying to fit in, but rather trying to break free from what you believe music _should_ be, realise what music _can_ be and more importantly discover what you _want_ your music to be.

But thanks for the info and will look into the whole arrangement using 2nds and as andruini said interval cycles. I had put the Rite on the backburner recently and returned to something I can make sense of like Brahms and Electric Wizard.


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## Ignis Fatuus (Nov 25, 2008)

Argus said:


> You make it sound so simple to create groundbreaking music like Stravinsky. That goes for most of the great innovative composers. If it was as easy as hearing something in your head and notating it then surely music, as an art, will not progress. How can one imagine something completely unlike what has been heard before? You can only learn and build on what has gone before, unless that is the mark of true genius.


Originality and progress are quite recent additions to aesthetic appreciation. Stravinsky himself said something to the effect of: "Don't immitate. Copy outright."


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Yes: A bad artist copies, a good artist steals.


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Argus said:


> If anyone has studied music or has a great deal of knowledge on Stravinsky and his technique, all help would be greatly appreciated.


Hi Argus,

I have spent a fair bit of time with this score, and others of Stravinsky.

Polytonality - yes. Perhaps what should also be noted is that this music is constructed around modes, not scales - especially octatonic (which, btw contains many polytonal chordal relationships, so, the "chunk, chunk" section is both polytonal and octatonic). Once this is understood, the music becomes much more clear. Also, this music is littered with non-harmonic tones that are used for "effect" rather than harmony. It is important to look at the important notes, not the passing notes, to get a sense of the underlying harmonic concepts.

Perhaps this would be fun - we could all through aspects of the music, and try to figure out what is going on. Great thing about this piece is that it has very clearly marked sections, so, it is easy to take apart. Maybe suggest one section, and I'll dig into it (and any others of course) - I don't want to be confronted with trying to explain the entire piece, but would be happy to explain sections.

What do you think?

Scott

Btw, an excellent way to explore diversifying your harmonic pallet is to think in modes, not scales. I can explain this further if you like.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

emiellucifuge said:


> Yes: A bad artist copies, a good artist steals.


Jimmy Page will second this.

Don't listen to composers word's, listen to their music. Most of them talk cryptic nonsense a la Eric Cantona's famous seagull speech.

More Stravisky quotes:

_I haven't understood a bar of music in my life, but I have felt it.

I am an inventor of music.

I am in the present. I cannot know what tomorrow will bring forth. I can know only what the truth is for me today. That is what I am called upon to serve, and I serve it in all lucidity. _

_My music is best understood by children and animals.

Too many pieces of music finish too long after the end.

What gives the artist real prestige is his imitators.

Music is given to us with the sole purpose of establishing an order in things, including, and particularly, the coordination between man and time.

To listen is an effort, and just to hear is no merit. A duck hears also.

The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music they should be taught to love it instead.

The principle of the endless melody is the perpetual becoming of a music that never had any reason for starting, any more than it has any reason for ending.

I have learned throughout my life as a composer chiefly through my mistakes and pursuits of false assumptions, not by my exposure to founts of wisdom and knowledge.

The real composer thinks about his work the whole time; he is not always conscious of this, but he is aware of it later when he suddenly knows what he will do._

And my favourites:

_Why is it that whenever I hear a piece of music I don't like, it's always by Villa-Lobos? _

_The more constraints one imposes, the more one frees one's self. And the arbitrariness of the constraint serves only to obtain precision of execution. _

However, if I was in a position where people actually cared about what I said, I would probably talk in the same vague nonsensical terms as well.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

Scott Good said:


> Hi Argus,
> 
> I have spent a fair bit of time with this score, and others of Stravinsky.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice Scott.

I have studied a bit of jazz theory and modes do play a part in certain styles of that. Do you mean the Church modes derived from the major scale eg. Ionian, Aeolian, Dorian etc or do you mean any collection of a set amount of notes eg. modes of the Harmonic minor or foreign modes like the Hirajoshi, Iwato etc. From my knowledge modes are built from any degree of a scale and use that note as the tonal centre. When I improvise I often use modes over a drone note or pedal to good effect. So for example to sound as if you are in F Phrygian you would play the notes of the D major scale but avoid common diatonic progressions like A major to D and instead use batches of notes in the scale for effect rather than function to establisf F as the centre. Perhaps you could explain more to me?

Regarding polytonality, I am slightly confused. I can see that two or more chords are being played simultaneously at point's but don't understand their relationship. Like, in the _Dance of the Young Girls_ section would the Fb under the Eb dom7 be regarded as it's Neapolitan or would both chords be the V and bVI of Ab respectively. I think I am looking at things from the total wrong viewpoint. It's more like he picked notes that are as dissonant as possible, being a minor second away from each other.

The _Sacrificial Dance - The Chosen One_ looks like a good section to analyse. It has a constantly changing meter is the first thing you notice. It seems to start with a D dom7 (incomplete dominant ninth) ,which features frequently during this section, over an Eb and Bb. The Bb is surely just a passing tone. You say this section is octatonic, does that mean it utilises an eight note scale or is it more subtle than that. The next part (149) in 3/8 features the notes G,D,A,F and E. I don't know what chord this is but can see that apart from F they are consecutive in the cycle of fifths and are all in the C major scale.

Could you shed any light on these sections and the use of modes in general?


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Argus said:


> Thanks for the advice Scott.
> 
> I have studied a bit of jazz theory and modes do play a part in certain styles of that. Do you mean the Church modes derived from the major scale eg. Ionian, Aeolian, Dorian etc or do you mean any collection of a set amount of notes eg. modes of the Harmonic minor or foreign modes like the Hirajoshi, Iwato etc. From my knowledge modes are built from any degree of a scale and use that note as the tonal centre. When I improvise I often use modes over a drone note or pedal to good effect. So for example to sound as if you are in F Phrygian you would play the notes of the D major scale but avoid common diatonic progressions like A major to D and instead use batches of notes in the scale for effect rather than function to establisf F as the centre. Perhaps you could explain more to me?
> 
> ...


Hi Argus,

Lots of good questions - I will do my best to answer, but, will need some time!

Scott


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

*update*



Scott Good said:


> Hi Argus,
> 
> Lots of good questions - I will do my best to answer, but, will need some time!
> 
> Scott


Argus, and all,

I have been digging in - awesome! Always a pleasure spending time with the genius of Stravinsky. Whenever I have studied this score before, it was mostly in terms of orchestration, and conducting/performance. But the harmony is showing to be very interesting. The results show systems that are both elegantly simple, yet beautifully complex at the surface. A beautiful mixture of formal process, and freedom.

For best understanding, I recommend full orchestra score. To understand this harmony well, it is best to see how he orchestrates the music, as it clearly shows the emphasis of the harmony - the principal melodic lines.

Also, forget any notions of I's and V's and bII's and all that. It reveals nothing of the nature of the harmony.

But, I still have to spend some time wording my conclusions.

Will be back shortly,

Scott


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

I have found an interesting essay on Stravinsky and the Octatonic Scale. Here's the link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4438644/Stravinsky-and-the-Octatonic-A-Reconsideration

I have given the article a quick scan through and it seems to be a pretty dense read. Now I just need some extra hours in the day to find the time to read and process all this information.


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## kmisho (Oct 22, 2009)

Argus said:


> Good post.
> 
> You make it sound so simple to create groundbreaking music like Stravinsky. That goes for most of the great innovative composers. If it was as easy as hearing something in your head and notating it then surely music, as an art, will not progress. How can one imagine something completely unlike what has been heard before? You can only learn and build on what has gone before, unless that is the mark of true genius.
> 
> For example, that section of the Rite you mentioned with the Eb dom7 over the Fb in 2/4. Did Stravinsky really just hear that from out of nowhere? He must have learnt from previous masters and the then current innovators to be able to imagine such things. It still used the division of the octave into twelve and rational horizontal organisation, and other common factors. This is because certain cultures ears have been 'tuned' differently by years of musical tradition. Stravinsky was no different. If he was born in Africa his music would have sounded completely different.


I don't think Stravinsky set out to break ground as a primary goal. I am convinced Stravinsky "heard" the Eb dom7 over the Fb, but not out of nowhere. Out of a personal tonal language he'd been accumulating his entire musical life and already partly evident in prior works.

Here is my opinion of why the Rite was so unique. Stravisnky himself admitted that his confidence level at the time was stratospheric. Consider how it was for him as a young composer fresh out of the box with his first two ballets essentially instant global hits.

This hubris, one might call it, found it's way into the Rite. He stumbled into a zone where he was almost totally certain that people would fall head over heels in love with anything he wrote but at the same time had developed a harmonic language so natural to him that he could not understand how divorced it was from mainstream expectation.

The Rite, though, was clearly not 100% an aural exercise. The polyrythmic moment just before the climax of the first section is repetitive and cellular, mechanical and computerized. Here he seems to be making _philosophical_ points with _structure_, an iconoclastic approach to say the least.



> I agree with you about not trying to force your sound into a certain style. I think it was Miles Davis who said the hardest thing to do in music is to find your own sound and not try to ape someone else's. I don't see it as trying to fit in, but rather trying to break free from what you believe music _should_ be, realise what music _can_ be and more importantly discover what you _want_ your music to be.
> 
> But thanks for the info and will look into the whole arrangement using 2nds and as andruini said interval cycles. I had put the Rite on the backburner recently and returned to something I can make sense of like Brahms and Electric Wizard.


These things are hard for me to talk about as I can see justification in just about any approach. Andy Warhol's approach to art could be described as banal pandering, but I consider him one of the great artists of the 20th century. This is why I keep returning to phrases like "be true to yourself, even if that includes lying".


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## Scott Good (Jun 8, 2009)

Hi all,

Sorry I didn't get back to this...nor am I completely ready to try and explain what I have found so far in the Rite of Spring.

But, due to some subsequent posts, I wanted to add a couple more points.

When it comes to analysis, I do not really try to concern myself with "how" or "why" the composer put their music together, but simply start with the "what" , and then search out the kinds of connections I can find in the musical ideas - how they work together. It is a selfish way of looking at things, but I study music only to better understand music, and learn techniques that I might be able to use in my own compositions.

The Eb7 over Fb sonority appears many times in this piece. So, rather than concern oneself with where it came from, concern yourself by what he does with it. This will show the interesting connections within the musical structure, and in essence show why he chose that sonority - he chose it to write the music he did! End of story. (pretty much what Kimsho is saying).

Is it Eb7 over Fb - yes. Is it a mode - yes. Does it relate to functional tonality - not really. Even if it can be explained in terms of Abmin as an individual sonority, nothing in the way that the music functions throughout the piece would suggest that this is what he was thinking with this sound. The paper on the octatonic quality posted above tries very hard, and does so decently well, to explain this music in terms of harmonic and melodic scales. Well, there is some elegance to this theory, but I think it is very distracting from the essence of the music. It reads like PhD theory to me - an attempt to find new angles on a famous work, and make ones mark. Fine, if you are a theorist who wants to get a job and get published. But as composers (or listeners), I'm not sure it is so useful - perhaps distracting.

I am going to continue working on an analysis, and I hope to share with you what is found. But one problem is it takes quite a bit of time to put these findings into readable sentences. The layers of connections in this piece are vast, but certainly worthy of knowing about.

We are playing this piece on the final concert with the Vancouver S.O., and I have offered to give a public lecture for the orchestra on this music and how it was constructed, so, have a deadline to work it out. Wish me luck, it's a monster score!

Btw, the final movement can be looked at as parallel dom7th chords, with some chromatic colouring around the root. Once looked at this way, the music become very understandable, it just gets confused as the voices are all crossing. Study the oboe parts, as they most clearly tell the story.


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## Ian Elliott (Nov 15, 2010)

All I can contribute is this key to Scriabin's harmony: His chord center is a seventh chord with the fifth diminished. This chord resolves equally well into either of two major fifth chords a tritone apart.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

The octatonic scale is a scale of alternating whole and half steps,either starting
whole/half or half/whole.


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## Falstaft (Mar 27, 2010)

The RoS has been a central "test" for music theories for several decades, and nearly every theorist worth his or her salt has taken a stab at it in one way or another. This may recapitulate or reframe some of the discussion that has already happened here, but as I see it there are three main methods used for the trickier stuff in the ballet.

1) Purely atonal investigation, which is to say pitch class set analysis in all its various guises. This is the approach taken by Forte and his disciples, and is primarily concerned with picking out recurrent "chords" or sonorities assuming a number of equivalences (8ve, inversional, and transpositional). For such a dissonant score, it was naturally extremely productive but came under quite a bit of fire once other techniques were devised.

2) Octatonic and scalar analysis, as practiced by van den Toorn and heavily critiqued (and yet, promulgated) by Taruskin, is something of an amendation of 1). It rightly notices the heavy use of the octatonic (or half-whole scale, or diminished scale, or set class 8-28) in this and other earlier works from Stravinsky -- it was trademark of Russian "magical" sounding music, and even an aspect of folk music, for quite some time, and RoS features it extensively. However, many theorists found claims that the octatonic scale "explained" all the harmony in Rite unsatisfactory -- particularly the countless passages not strictly octatonic (ex, the Augurs chord!), and the way that some modal or exotic scalar collections were more easily explicable by other means. As a result, more recently some other approaches have been gaining steam.

3) Polychordal analysis picks up where oct-analysis leaves off -- many of the sonorities, including the famous "Augurs" chord, can be thought of as juxtapositions of two more familiar chords simultaneously. The same goes for linear strata, with scales instead of chords. The insight here is that Stravinsky's pianistic compositional approach often involved the juxtaposition of two or more different species of chords (triadic, quartal, and other), or scales (for example, the harmonic and melodic minor scale, familiar from jazz theory, are segmented and tossed around in the piece). Incidentally, it is quite rare to hear theorists term anything "bitonal," "polytonal" or "in multiple keys" -- the psychology of tonality is very resistant to this kind of split-listening and as a result "polychordal" or "polyscalar" is preferred.

These 3 approaches are harmonic of course, and a lot of energy has also been poured into the rhythmic dimension of the piece, its folk song components, formal and metrical procedures, and its quite strong allusivity to tonality in certain sections. The important thing, I think, is to appreciate how eclectic Stravinsky's style was and what novel sounds he was able to wring out of the orchestra using ingeniously deployed, sometimes familiar, techniques.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

The version for four hands is amazing

http://www.amazon.ca/Sacre-Printemp...=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1290029642&sr=1-6

This version is less...

ythttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZkeDUZFdJg/yt


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## Nix (Feb 20, 2010)

Argus said:


> So what underlying harmonic system did Stravinsky use in the construction of this masterpiece? How did he organise the dissonances?


I think I recall a Stravinsky quote on this piece where he said someone along the lines of that he didn't plan anything out, he just wrote what he felt and went with it. If your looking for organization this might be why you're having trouble.


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## Ztirual (Nov 29, 2014)

Wow this is a really old thread, but perhapse some of you can help me. Im from Denmark, and for the moment im doing a paper on Le Sacre, where I, among other things, talk about the use of the octatonic scale (or whole-half/half-whole). My only problem is that i just can't find a good example on the use of this scale in Le Sacre. (probably because im not so good at scale-work and such..) Can anyone help me to find a specific place in Le Sacre where the scale is being used?


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Argus said:


> After the first few bars it became obvious that Roman numerals would be no good here, but I would have thought Stravinsky had some method rather than just hearing these insane sounds in his head and putting them on paper.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that Stravinsky himself claimed that this is exactly what he did: simply followed his inner ear.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> I seem to remember reading somewhere that Stravinsky himself claimed that this is exactly what he did: simply followed his inner ear.


We should all get down on our knees and thank the lord that he didn't regularly use Q Tips.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

hpowders said:


> We should all get down on our knees and thank the lord that he didn't regularly use Q Tips.


Q Tips do look a bit like miniature tympani mallets, don't they? Perhaps he hammered out the work on his anvils.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Actually, I believe the entire harmonic structure of the_ Rite _is based upon a modified C Major chord. In other words, Stravinsky added some black keys to the white keys and ... well, you know what resulted. Not very complex at all. Sort of like Beethoven's Ninth or Mahler's Eighth ... or even the _Turtangledlîla-Symphonie _of Messiaen. They're all about modified C Major chords. And now, Philip Glass has joined in. So, you, as a hopeful composer-to-be, can too!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> Q Tips do look a bit like miniature tympani mallets, don't they? Perhaps he hammered out the work on his anvils.


If he used Q Tips, Le Sacre might have sounded more like Daphnis.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Argus said:


> I have just picked up a copy of _The Rite of Spring_ score for solo piano and I am a bit floundered trying to analyse it.
> 
> Firstly, the rhythmic aspect is quite clear to see just looking at the score and listening to the music. The _Sacrificial Dance _section being the most extreme example with the meter changing after nearly every bar. Anyone can learn a lot from the use of unorthodox accents and time signatures.
> 
> ...


It helps if you understand "interval projection" or "Interval multiplication." See WIKI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication_(music)

Meanwhile, here is my blog discussing tritone root relations.

Tritones are found in diminished seventh chords, the diminished scale, and the whole tone scale.

Also, all twelve dominant seventh chords can be derived from each of the four diminished seventh chords, by lowering one of the notes. C-Eb-Gb-A becomes A7 by lowering the C, D7 by lowering the Eb, Eb7 by lowering the Gb, and Ab7 by lowering the A.

You have to study a range of things to understand all this: Dominants, tritones, symmetry, interval projections, octatonic scales, etc.

The dominant chord rules!  Rate this Entry

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by *millionrainbows* 
, Aug-01-2012 at 21:52 (23 Views)

The only way to understand this is to hear it, so get a beer, go to your Bosendörfer Imperial Grand, and try this:

"Dominant" refers to the function of a chord, it tendencies, and what it "wants" to do. In any major scale, each note is a possible root from which to build a triad. The seven note functions are represented with Roman numerals. Capital numerals denote major; small numerals denote minor (or diminished on vii). The functions are: I (tonic), ii (supertonic), iii (mediant), IV (subdominant), V (dominant), vi (submediant), and vii (leading tone).

These functions change in minor keys & other scales. There are function-names for every chromatic note, not just the seven diatonic (within the key) ones above; for example, flatted submediant, etc.

A "dominant" chord is a "V" chord; any chord with a major third and a flat-seven. This interval is a tritone. It is the symmetrical mid-point of the 12-note chromatic scale. For example, in the octave from C to C, C-F# and F#-C are the tritones. This interval is symmetrically invertible; i.e. when you invert it, it is still a tritone, unlike the other intervals (except the octave). Inverted major thirds become minor sixths, etc.

Here's where "function" comes into play. The root determines the function of the notes in the tritone.

If the tritone is occupying the notes F-B, and the root is G, then F is the b7 and B is the third. The F wants to resolve down to E, and the B wants to resolve up to C, making it a V-I cadence in C. This is the typical V-I progression.

Alternately, if the root is C#, then the functions (3-b7/b7-3) are reversed: F (called E# in the key of C#) is the major third, and B is the b7. The tritone can be resolved to F#: F down to E (b7), and B down to Bb (or A# in the key of F#), the major third.

Getting complicated, isn't it? If we combine these root movements, we see other possibilities emerge: play F-B in your RH. All these will resolve F down to E, and B down to Bb.
The possible root movements are: G-C; G-Gb; C#-F#; and C#-C. So you see, we get two different V-Is, and two different chromatic half-step resolutions, all out of one tritone relation.

After playing with this, you begin to see that a series or cycle of V-Is is similar to a chromatic movement. Both cycles will eventually exhaust all twelve notes; the V-Is do it by fifths, and the chromatics do it in succession.

The be-bop jazz players exploited this characteristic of dominants & tritones, calling it "tritone substitution." Jazz is mostly cycles of V-Is, so instead of G7-C7, they would substitute a new root and go C#7-C7, or G7-F#7. 
Try this as an endless cycle or loop: G-F-B to F#-E-Bb; C-E-Bb to B-Eb-A; F-Eb-A to E-D-G#; Bb-D-G# to etc. 
Notice the I-Ching hexagram-like transition? The last two notes of each second group are carried over to the next first group: E-Bb/Eb-A/D-G#, etc.

The Second Viennese School used this chord (see the New Grove "Second Viennese School"). The chord is (low to high): Bb-D-E-Ab, which, if shifted down one semitone to A-C#-D#-G, is equivalent to the same chord transposed a perfect fifth down: Bb-D-E-Ab to Eb-G-A-Db, which are the same notes (Eb=D#, G, A, Db=C#). This illustrates what I was talking about above, the "chromatic-fifths connection."


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Scott Good said:


> ...When it comes to analysis, I do not really try to concern myself with "how" or "why" the composer put their music together, but simply start with the "what" , and then search out the kinds of connections I can find in the musical ideas - how they work together. It is a selfish way of looking at things, but I study music only to better understand music, and learn techniques that I might be able to use in my own compositions...So, rather than concern oneself with where it came from, concern yourself by what he does with it. This will show the interesting connections within the musical structure, and in essence show why he chose that sonority - he chose it to write the music he did! End of story.


Intuitive grasping is more "artistic" and romantically appealing, isn't it? But even a good chef will look at all the different recipes, and try to "distill" the essence of that recipe, in order to come up with something original that can perhaps be expanded.

If the OP wants to compose in a modern style, then these concepts of symmetry will have to be understood, and not dismissed as separate from the music itself.

I use tonal theory all the time when I'm playing at the keyboard, identifying roots, inversions, and chord qualities. It greatly aids me in my execution. The same for modern ideas and composition: if you understand the underlying principles, it becomes much easier to generate ideas, and to identify the origins and reasoning behind existing music.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

This contains the best explanation of Stravinsky's music I have heard.






The lecture is long and the stuff about poetry seems a bit dated, but I strongly recommend watching it through.

I think Stravinsky once said he didn't think in terms of 'modes' at all, I think because he composed at the piano he experimented a lot with all sorts of poly-chordal combinations and extensions of the basic triad. Most importantly he trusted to his artistic intuition and musical ear.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

^^^Yes. Bernstein did his best work as a teacher of classical music to the masses.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Jobis said:


> I think Stravinsky once said he didn't think in terms of 'modes' at all, I think because he composed at the piano he experimented a lot with all sorts of poly-chordal combinations and extensions of the basic triad. Most importantly he trusted to his artistic intuition and musical ear.


Yes, that's very romantic and artistic.

(sarcastically) Stravinsky didn't need to mess with intervals, scales, or root functions, he just dealt with music as big sweet masses of ooey-gooey adventurous sound experimentation, like John Cage. Pure, artistic sound, like Varese. Ear music.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, that's very romantic and artistic.
> 
> (sarcastically) Stravinsky didn't need to mess with intervals, scales, or root functions, he just dealt with music as big sweet masses of ooey-gooey adventurous sound experimentation, like John Cage. Pure, artistic sound, like Varese. Ear music.


That's more or less what he said about how he composed Le Sacre in an interview, as I recall. Of course, I think he enjoyed throwing out red herrings.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> Yes, that's very romantic and artistic.
> 
> (sarcastically) Stravinsky didn't need to mess with intervals, scales, or root functions, he just dealt with music as big sweet masses of ooey-gooey adventurous sound experimentation, like John Cage. Pure, artistic sound, like Varese. Ear music.


I didn't say any of that, nor was it implied.


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## Johannes V (Dec 2, 2014)

Jobis said:


> The lecture is long and the stuff about poetry seems a bit dated, but I strongly recommend watching it through.


What is it exactly that you find outdated about the poetry? It seems to me a very good device in the instance.


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