# Symphonies longer than 50 minutes in a typical performance



## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Here is a list of those known to me:


Ludwig van Beethoven​Symphonies No. 3 & 9​Franz Schubert​Symphony No. 9​Hector Berlioz​Symphonie Fantastique, Roméo et Juliette​Anton Bruckner​Symphonies No. 2-9​Pyotr TchaikovskySymphonies No. 5, 6 & ManfredGustav Mahler​Symphonies No. 1-10, Das Lied von der Erde​Ralph Vaughan Williams​Symphonies No. 1 & 2​Dmitri Shostakovich​Symphonies No. 4, 7, 8, 10, 11 & 13​Wilhelm Furtwängler​Symphonies No. 1-3​Havergal Brian​Symphonies No. 1-3​Peng Peng Gong​most symphonies​

Do you know more?


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> Here is a list of those known to me:
> 
> 
> Ludwig van Beethoven​Symphonies No. 3 & 9​Franz Schubert​Symphony No. 9​Hector Berlioz​Symphonie Fantastique, Roméo et Juliette​Anton Bruckner​Symphonies No. 2-9​Pyotr TchaikovskySymphonies No. 5, 6 & ManfredGustav Mahler​Symphonies No. 1-10, Das Lied von der Erde​Ralph Vaughan Williams​Symphonies No. 1 & 2​Dmitri Shostakovich​Symphonies No. 4, 7, 8, 10, 11 & 13​Wilhelm Furtwängler​Symphonies No. 1-3​Havergal Brian​Symphonies No. 1-3​Peng Peng Gong​most symphonies​
> ...


Rachmaninoff No. 2. I do not care for long, rambling, gaseous symphonies in general, but the Rachmaninoff does not fall into that category, though there are countless examples in the late 19th-early 20th century repertoire.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Strange Magic said:


> Rachmaninoff No. 2. I do not care for long, rambling, gaseous symphonies in general, but the Rachmaninoff does not fall into that category, though there are countless examples in the late 19th-early 20th century repertoire.


Dvorak - 1&2
Elgar - 1&2
G.Lloyd - 4,5&11
Sibelius - Kullervo
Suk - Asrael
Vaughan Williams - 1 (Sea)


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Messiaen - Turangalila Symphony.
Simpson - 9th symphony
Tippett - 3rd Symphony


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

van Gilse #3 (great work)
Zweers #3 "To my Fatherland"


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Mendelssohn: "Lobgesang"
Liszt: Faust Symphony
Scriabin : 1-3
Strauss: Alpensymphonie
Schmidt: #3 (probably some of his others as well)
Eisler: Deutsche Sinfonie (actually more a cantata but the same could be said for Mahler 8 and RVW 1), over 60 min.

I think typical performances of Tchaikovsky's 5th and 6th are below 50 min. For slowish performances with first movement repeat, Brahms first 2 can last above 50 min.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Gliere 3
Myaskovsky 6 and maybe some others too
Rheinberger 1 and 2 (2 is played rather slowly in the only available recording, so I suspect it could be done in under 50 minutes)
Rott
Scriabin 1, 2, 3 (depending on the performance, can be done in under 50 minutes)
Strauss Alpine Symphony
Paderewski Polonia Symphony
Raff 1, 5 and maybe some others


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Enescu #2 and #3 (around 50 min, so some performances might be a bit shorter)
Krenek #2
Khatchaturian #2
Petterson #6, #12, #13 and probably more of his
Henze #9

I expect there are many more among late romantic and modern composers. It's quite long (FAR more are 35-45) but not that rare.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

In recent years I've played a Beethoven 7th and Mozart 40th and both exceeded 50 minutes. That what happens when you have a conductor who insists on taking virtually every repeat - even on DCs, - and excruciatingly slow tempos in slow movements.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

Erich Wolfgang Korngold - Symphony in F sharp


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Thank you for your answers. I sure have missed many!

The idea behind this thread was that I think the term 'symphony' is overly spacious, covering very short and/or very unserious or "light" works as well as behemoth dramatic constructions that clock close to an hour. In order to have some kind of term for the sub-genre I like, I have entertained the idea of a term "grand symphony", a symphony at least 50 minutes long on an average recording / in an average performance, usually intended for a performance with a large orchestra, usually serious in purpose. It barely includes Eroica, making it a sub-genre-inaugurating work. Is there an existing name for such a "weight category"?

Here is the recording length range I have encountered for the several questioned works:


Pyotr Tchaikovsky​Manfred Symphony​50-58 min​1885​Pyotr Tchaikovsky​Symphony No. 5​43-58 min​1888​Pyotr Tchaikovsky​Symphony No. 6​41-61 min​1893​


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

How about another subdivision of symphonies of serious purpose that are less than 50 minutes long? Just thinking about 5th symphonies, those of Shostakovitch, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams, Beethoven come to mind immediately. Perhaps "Efficient Serious Symphonies" will do for lack of a better term. Usually with such compression, musical ideas are clearly articulated and brought swiftly to the mind and there is far less of the _longueurs _that clog and stifle many longer works.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

*Reinhold Glière*


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Richard Strauss' Alpine Symphony barely qualifies at around 51 minutes.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

There are no sharp dividing lines. Even disregarding many other (early) uses of "sinfonia" the early 3 movement symphonies of the 18th century were 5-10 min, then a "typical (4 movement) symphony" was 25-35 min. for a long time. Even the two longest Beethoven symphonies and Schubert's 9th didn't change that. The typical length increased maybe to 35-45 min. in the mid-late 19th century but anything approaching one hour was always long. And parallel to symphonies getting into Mahlerian proportions we have the tendency shown e.g. by Sibelius of them getting shorter (his 7th is his shortest and the 2nd the longest!) or in any case remaining within the 25-40 min. frame without necessarily getting "lightweight". I don't think Sibelius 6th and Mahler's 6th belong to different genres because the latter is more than twice the length.


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## VoiceFromTheEther (Aug 6, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> There are no sharp dividing lines.


That's precisely what I am trying to address.



Kreisler jr said:


> I don't think Sibelius 6th and Mahler's 6th belong to different genres because the latter is more than twice the length.


With half the duration, in a head to head comparison, the Sibelius would have to be twice as efficient as the Mahler to say as much.

A weight class channels the comparisons to more fruitful waters, because we are then dealing with how did each composer use a given amount of time. A similar system has worked for the British Royal Navy (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. rate ships), it works in all kinds of sports, it works when enthusiasts compare the effectiveness of machines and complex systems...

say:
Category 1 - over 50 minutes
Category 2 - 30-45 minutes
Category 3 - 25 minutes and shorter

then we would have such example sets:


category 2 – ca. 30-45 minutescategory 1 - ca. 50 minutes and overBeethoven - 5thBeethoven - EroicaBrahms - 4thBeethoven - 9thBeethoven - 6thBerlioz - FantastiqueBrahms - 1stBruckner - 5thHaydn - 104thTchaikovsky - 6thMozart - 40thMahler - 9thMendelssohn - 3rdShostakovich - 7thProkofiev - 5thSchubert - 9thDvorak - 8thVaughan Williams - A Sea SymphonyKalinnikov - 2ndGliere - Ilya Murometz

I see the usefulness of the split. Virtually all symphonies motivated primarily by adhering to classicist ideals of moderation would fall to the left, even if they were composed way after the 1820s, whereas big spectacles, symphony-cantatas, and the most ambitious or megalomaniac projects would fall to the right.

It's not about artistic intent, but about statistics. Let's admit, a lot of the TalkClassical discussion, much as football fan discussions, are quite a bit on the statistical side, even if informally so.


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

just a few off the top of my head: Kalevi Aho (8, 12, 16), James MacMillan (5), Alfred Schnittke (1,2), Valentin Silvestrov (5), Isang Yun (5)


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## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

another batch: Boris Tishchenko (6, 7), George Rochberg (1), Nikolai Korndorf (3), PM Davies (2), Henryk Gorecki (3)


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

For Maxwell Davies, Nos. 1 and 3 are also well over 50 minutes. As are Elgar's symphonies, including the Payne-elaborated Third.

Others I can think of; apologies if I'm repeating any...

Villa-Lobos 2 & 10
Pettersson 6, 8, 9, 12, 13
Gallagher 2
Penderecki 7, 8 (revised)
Bloch C-sharp
Rubinstein 2, 4
G. Lloyd 4, 5, 7, 11
D. Jones 1
Krenek 2
Weingartner 7


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> Petterson #6, #12, #13 and probably more of his
> 
> 
> I expect there are many more among late romantic and modern composers. It's quite long (FAR more are 35-45) but not that rare.


Petterssons 9th is 80 minutes in one movement. I can't offhand think of another 80 minute single movement symphony which isn't to say there aren't any.


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## RussianFlute (Jul 26, 2021)

I've got a few to add. Lyapunov 2 (One recording clocks in at over an hour, the other is at 49 minutes. By the same conductor.) 
Ledenev Symphony in Simple Modes (just over an hour)


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Tournemire #6 (53 min)
Symphony #2 for Children’s choir, solo Piano and Orchestra (61 min) by Theodorakis
Sauguet #1 (53)
Ropartz #3 (55)
Respighi's Sinfonia Drammatica (58)
Saga Symphony (55) by Jón Leifs
Kupferman's Jazz Symphony (51)
Claude Ballif's Mystic Symphony #2 (104)
Arnold #4 (54)


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

Boris Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. II
Ravel: Daphnis et Chloe (symphonie chorégraphique)
Bax: Symphony no. III
Svetlanov: Symphony no. I in B Minor
Charles Arnould Tournemire: Symphonies II & VI
Goedicke: Symphony no. III in C minor
Langgaard: Symphony no. I in B-minor
Adolfs Skulte: Symphony no. II "Ave Sol"
Alfven: Symphony no. II
John Knowles Paine: Symphony no. II
Weinberg: Symphony no. XXI "Kaddish"
Rubinstein: Symphony no. II (revised 1880 version)


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## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

The idea of distinguishing between 'serious' and...what?...'silly' symphonies?...is anathema, especially if it's simply based on length.


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## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

VoiceFromTheEther said:


> That's precisely what I am trying to address.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


VoiceFromTheEther - "With half the duration, in a head to head comparison, the Sibelius (6th) would have to be twice as efficient as Mahler to say as much." WOW, but that's such a QUANTITATIVE analysis, with it's "logical" conclusion - eh?!! The Sibelius' Sixth is such a remarkable composition, coming as it does, between the epical 5th, and the broad sweep of the 7th. I've listened to performances/recordings from Ehrling, Schneevoigt and others (in the 6th) ... and certain ones of Mahler's 6th (Horenstein, for example). In any "case", the Sibelius has exceptional POINTS to be made, as does ... to be sure, the Mahler 6th ... and the comparative LENGTHS of these Symphonies are not the "yardstick", so to speak, of their total, overall qualities and their lasting values - eh?


VoiceFromTheEther said:


> That's precisely what I am trying to address.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


VoiceFromTheEthernet - Well, I'll simply disagree with you, about the LENGTHS of a Sibelius 6th Symphony, and a Mahler 6th Symphony ... if we're discussing relative qualities, in that MUSICAL sense.


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## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

As I've seen some of his other symphonies mentioned, Tournemire's No. 7 is close to 90 minutes in length.


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