# Is Mendelssohn Underrated?



## Chopinistic

Hey guys & gals,

Does anyone on this forum feel that Mendelssohn is an underrated composer? Because it seems to me that, in general, he doesn't get nearly enough attention, especially considering his "Mozartian" musical abilities.

If yes, why do you think that is? Because he wasn't particularly innovative?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Very Best,

Chopinistic


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## Weston

I enjoy his music, especially the Hebrides Overture which I find vaguely Beethovenian -- err, Beethovenesque? Whatever. His Octet is a real tour de force and I especially enjoy his youthful string symphonies which come across as more baroque than romantic to me, and full of vigor.

Still, I have not really grasped his full orchestral symphonies and other orchestral works. Maybe if I listened with good play by play annotations to point out what I'm supposed to be hearing, I'd find them more enjoyable. Sometimes it's just a matter of being too distracted with modern life to focus on giving the works the attention they deserve. I do find his piano pieces pleasant enough.

So, no. I don't feel he's underrated compared to Beethoven. If I were playing a rating game, I would put him in about the same league as Schubert in terms of entertainment value for me, and actually well above Mozart who for me has always been quite overrated. (I know that is close to blasphemy.)


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## Krummhorn

I quite enjoy his Organ works ... my favorite is the Sonota I in F Minor. 
As a performer, I have done this piece in concert many times - each time I am totally marveled by Mendelssohn's ability as a very creative composer. 

Indeed, even in the organ literature, his works are not getting enough attention.


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## David C Coleman

As a pure listener of music, I rate Mendelssohn highly. His music is nearly always attractive, listenable and seems to be a fine craftsman. He maybe a little lightweight compared to the likes of Beethoven and Brahms, but probably the most worthy intermediate between those two heavyweights.
I always find out of the five fully scored symphonies he wrote, No. 2 (Hymn of Praise) is always dissapointingly not performed enough - there is some really interesting music in it...


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## Kuhlau

Mendelssohn is one of those composers to whose works I listened more a few years ago than today. Back then, my musical tastes were neither as broad nor as deep as they are now. As my preferences have expanded and deepened (and perhaps also, darkened), I find the light, sometimes Mozartian quality of Mendelssohn's music pleasant but not engaging enough to have me reaching often for the CDs of his work that languish on my shelves.

Of the recordings I _do_ pick out more often than others, his E Minor Violin Concerto (conducted by Sir Neville Marriner and performed by Viktoria Mullova and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields - an indispensible rendition that, refreshingly, is not delivered with Romantic bombast, as can often be the case with other recordings of this fine work) and his D Minor Concerto for Violin, Piano and Strings remain abiding favourites of mine.

FK


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## Atabey

Agree with Kuhlau,i always find his music pleasant but forgettable.Thus in my opinion he is justly rated.


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## jhar26

Seems to me that he's highly rated already: The Violin Concerto (probably the most popular violin concerto of them all), the Octet, the Scottish and Italian symphonies, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Elias....all of them popular and critically acclaimed works. Many a talented composer would love to be as underrated as Mendelssohn.


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## Tapkaara

I might put forward that Mendelssohn is a little overrated. I have no ill will towards the man, obviously a talented composer, but I find a lack of depth and drama in his output that leaves me wanting for more.

I like his 4th Symphony quite a bit, however.


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Chopinistic said:


> it seems to me that, in general, he doesn't get nearly enough attention


Where do you get that impression from?


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## Kuhlau

Mendelssohn certainly gets programmed a lot in concerts here in the UK. So I suppose I'm with YsayeOp.27#6 on this: What makes you think he's underrated?

FK


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## Elaryad

Underrated? Mendelssohn? Never heard about that.


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## Yagan Kiely

> Beethovenian -- err, Beethovenesque


Beethovelian - Malheresque

One I have never found a good suffix for is Strauss... Straussian? Sounds horrible.


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## Kuhlau

Beethovelian? Never seen that used before.

FK


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## David C Coleman

Beethovenian -- err, Beethovenesque

Or as my dear old father used to say- Beethovonic!..


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## SixFootScowl

Yes, Felix Mendelssohn is underrated. His symphonies are wonderful, all 18 of them (including the 13 string symphonies).

Just like with Beethoven, we can't have enough Mendelssohn threads going. A worthy subject to discuss, so I drag up this old, old thread.


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## bz3

I'd say he's rated fine. Pleasant composer with a few gems. If we're talking who is underrated among some sort of ethereal second tier of classical composers (where I place Mendelssohn), I would nominate Schumann, CPE Bach, Corelli, and Prokofiev - just to cover my bases as far as eras go.

EDIT: And I'll add Strauss too. Sure he humbly admitted himself into such a designation but who cares what he thought. I've long been a fan of a variety of his works and as I delve into his opera I'm more convinced that he was the equal of anyone in the late Romantic era.


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## MarkW

I've always sort of thought he died tragically old.


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## SixFootScowl

Well I can see we are not getting much Mendelssohn appreciation from dragging up this old thread. Perhaps we need to look over the Felix Mendelssohn thread to see how much appreciation there is for Mendelssohn,
http://www.talkclassical.com/2566-felix-mendelssohn.html
Then go listen to some Mendelssohn.


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## clavichorder

One of these days, I'm just going to compile a playlist and prepare a listening marathon. Or some plan to the effect of relistening to break old prejudices with my better listening abilities and such.

I used to think very highly of Mendelssohn when younger. I don't listen much these days.


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## bigshot

yes, he is underrated. but that's because he devoted himself to teaching and didn't have as large of an output because he was focused on other things.


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## violadude

Nope ..................


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## Badinerie

Not in my house anyway! Hes right up there with the best!


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## amfortas

MarkW said:


> I've always sort of thought he died tragically old.


Better than tragically young.


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## SixFootScowl

MarkW said:


> I've always sort of thought he died tragically old.


I know this was tongue-in-cheek, but do you dislike Mendelssohn's music so much that you feel his short lifespan was too long because it resulted in more music? But remember he put out a lot of great music in his teens. He may have been more of a prodigy than Mozart in that regard.


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## DavidA

MarkW said:


> I've always sort of thought he died tragically old.


I think that says more about you than him!


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## DavidA

Florestan said:


> I know this was tongue-in-cheek, but do you dislike Mendelssohn's music so much that you feel his short lifespan was too long because it resulted in more music? But remember he put out a lot of great music in his teens. He may have been more of a prodigy than Mozart in that regard.


I just can't understand anyone with any musicality saying they dislike Mendelssohn. His music is never less than pleasant and is often a good deal more than that. I mean, who could possibly dislike the Midsummer Night's Dream Overture?


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## zhopin

DavidA said:


> I just can't understand anyone with any musicality saying they dislike Mendelssohn. His music is never less than pleasant and is often a good deal more than that. I mean, who could possibly dislike the Midsummer Night's Dream Overture?


Not to mention his trios, string quartets, symphonies, _concertos_... It goes on. Mendelssohn was surely very talented, and I can't comprehend in the slightest how people fail to hear that talent in his compositions!


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## Lyricus

DavidA said:


> I just can't understand anyone with any musicality saying they dislike Mendelssohn. His music is never less than pleasant and is often a good deal more than that. I mean, who could possibly dislike the Midsummer Night's Dream Overture?


That this is even a question means Mendelssohn is underrated.


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## trazom

He's been unfairly maligned in the past but I think his position in the canon now seems just. I enjoy a few chamber pieces he wrote in his teens, the piano trios, and a handful of orchestra works like the concert overtures and one or two of the symphonies, but that's about it. Extra-musical aspects of his life like being a great prodigy, promoter of Bach's sacred music, a nice person and great colleague, or talented doesn't really influence my enjoyment of the rest of his music. All that matters to me is the music itself. I agree with the poster above who described his music as never less than pleasant, but unfortunately, much of it(especially the solo piano music) rarely strikes me as anything more than pleasant either.


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## Bulldog

I consider Mendelssohn a little bit overrated. I enjoy his chamber works very much, but the symphonies, concertos and solo pianos works don't impress me.


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## ArtMusic

I think Mendelssohn is more or less correctly rated. A great composer.


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## DaveM

When the overall rating of Mendelssohn's music is considered, I'm always amazed how often his Songs Without Words are not mentioned. At their best, they are arguably the equal of some of the most loved piano solo works of Chopin and Schumann.

There is no solo piano piece quite like the SWW Op19#1. This is a particularly nice version by Perahia:






And then there is the solemn beauty of the Op38#6 (Duetto). This should not be played too fast or too slow. This is just about right:






Here's a wonderful version of the Duetto for Quartet:






Solemn beauty (but also sadness) also applies to the op53#4 (Sadness of Soul or Melancholy). This is often played far too fast given its title:






The Op30#3 is a simple piece, simply beautiful:


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## jimsumner

Bulldog said:


> I consider Mendelssohn a little bit overrated. I enjoy his chamber works very much, but the symphonies, concertos and solo pianos works don't impress me.


You don't like his mature violin concerto?


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## Guillet81

For me, Mendelssohn is one of the three all-time greats, along with Bach and Mozart. This is not to dismiss other composers, of course, but if one has to hold to just three, it has to be those in my judgement.

Do I find that Mendelssohn is overall underrated? Yes. My reason is relatively simple: While he is known among those who know chamber/orchestral music, he simply does not have the "larger public" name recognition of the likes Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, or Brahms, to name some obvious examples. I do suppose it depends on location, however. Judging from some of the other comments, Mendelssohn seems well recognized in the UK.


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## Pugg

Guillet81 said:


> For me, Mendelssohn is one of the three all-time greats, along with Bach and Mozart. This is not to dismiss other composers, of course, but if one has to hold to just three, it has to be those in my judgement.
> 
> Do I find that Mendelssohn is overall underrated? Yes. My reason is relatively simple: While he is known among those who know chamber/orchestral music, he simply does not have the "larger public" name recognition of the likes Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, or Brahms, to name some obvious examples. I do suppose it depends on location, however. Judging from some of the other comments, Mendelssohn seems well recognized in the UK.


Welcome to Talk Classical Guillet81. :tiphat:


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## helenora

Guillet81 said:


> I do suppose it depends on location, however. Judging from some of the other comments, Mendelssohn seems well recognized in the UK.


yes, I think it's because of his "Scottish" symphony and "Midsummer night's dream" and therefore I think in Scotland they should like him most


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## DaveM

helenora said:


> yes, I think it's because of his "Scottish" symphony and "Midsummer night's dream" and therefore I think in Scotland they should like him most


And the Hebrides Overture, the Hebrides being off the west coast of Scotland.


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## worov

Mendelssohn is amazing !


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## Guillet81

Thanks for your kind welcome!


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## Bulldog

jimsumner said:


> You don't like his mature violin concerto?


Right - I don't like it and I try my best to avoid it.


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## Xenakiboy

Where's Abraham Lincoln's opinion on Mendelssohn? Without it, this thread means NOTHING


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## DavidA

I love Mendelssohn's music. If there is a slight caveat it is that his music didn't show the same development through his life as other composers. For example, the mature Violin Concerto and the teenage Midsummer Night's Dream overture are roughly on the same level. Having said that, they are works of great genius and although I go to other composers for greater 'depth' of writing, Mendelssohn remains one of my favourite composers.


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## Abraham Lincoln

Xenakiboy said:


> Where's Abraham Lincoln's opinion on Mendelssohn? Without it, this thread means NOTHING


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## Xenakiboy

Abraham Lincoln said:


>


Felix.....are you drunk again???? 

*HURRY UP AND FINISH YOUR DAMN FOURTH SYMPHONY OR I'LL FINISH IT FOR YOU!!!*


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## Johnnie Burgess

He was very good.:tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl

I am reading the book Felix Mendelssohn and His Times by Heinrich Eduard Jacob. In it is a quote that Mendelssohn "was producing more independent ideas than Mozart at the same age [12], for the latter had turned out nothing but adroit imitations of his models."


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> I am reading the book Felix Mendelssohn and His Times by Heinrich Eduard Jacob. In it is a quote that Mendelssohn "was producing more independent ideas than Mozart at the same age [12], for the latter had turned out nothing but adroit imitations of his models."


Sounds good. How did you find this book?


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## SixFootScowl

Johnnie Burgess said:


> Sounds good. How did you find this book?


I found it at a used book store. But in case you mean "how did you find" differently, well I am only about 40 pages in but it is quite interesting and a wonderful story, so much so that I could easily get lost in it like a novel.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Florestan said:


> I found it at a used book store. But in case you mean "how did you find" differently, well I am only about 40 pages in but it is quite interesting and a wonderful story, so much so that I could easily get lost in it like a novel.


That is the way to find some good books sometimes by going to a good used bookstore.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> I am reading the book Felix Mendelssohn and His Times by Heinrich Eduard Jacob. In it is a quote that Mendelssohn "was producing more independent ideas than Mozart at the same age [12], for the latter had turned out nothing but adroit imitations of his models."


Thorough as always . :tiphat:


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## Bachiana

Underrated? Absolutely. I think this is one of those remnants of that awful period in the recent history of Germany, where the Nazis tried to denigrate and belittle Mendelssohn as a second rate or even third rate composer, whose music was just a mere imitation of the music of the real german composers, only because he was a Jew. 
But he is not a minor composer! For me, he is one of those rare geniuses like Mozart and Schubert whose flame of life burned to brightly and shortly. And was not only a great composer, but also a brillant conductor, designer, pianist, organist and violin player.


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## Omnimusic

Mendelssohn was an increadibly good composer, a genius. His compositions are played over and over again everywhere. Maybe he is slightly underrated. I would say that he "plays" in the same league as Schubert ( although I would still put Schubert above him).
Listen to his piano trio nr 1, this is fantastic!


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## SixFootScowl

According to the book I am reading (and my recollection of what I recently read from it) he got distracted from his composing by all the other work he was doing and that hurt his output in both quality and quantity for a while, making his earlier and later works better. But nonetheless, a very underrated composer. Sad he went sour on opera and stopped after one opera that got a poor reception. But then Beethoven did the same at first.


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## clavichorder

He might very well be. I sometimes suspect harmony is overrated, melody is underrated, in terms of the difficulty and depth of musical intelligence required. Wagner really didn't like Mendelssohn. Wagner was a great composer, but he was definitely jealous. There is an essence in Mendelssohn's music that is just coming out of him and it's natural, but he also works on it. Wagner was always laboring and building harder things for himself too, because of ego and searing passion, some of which may not have been all together rooted in a purely musical view(no denying there was a great deal of self focus he couldn't escape apart from his ambition to unite all the arts). That's my current take on it, I'm not really set in my thinking, but I definitely felt early on that Mendelssohn's music was often very uplifting but not lacking in quality, containing high clarity. It is a matter of temperament and what you resonate with then, and not 'greatness.' Musical ability and technique as well, is hard to get to the bottom of. There is a thinking that gives the innovators the edge, but they are only innovators in the sense that they had followers, or that they were widely responsive or desirous of making a big impact on the world around them. Some are not as interested in that, they are more wholly focused on the spirit of the music they are writing. That is Mendelssohn, I tend to believe.


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## Vesteralen

My highly subjective opinion is that music seemed to flow out of Mendelssohn - sometimes like water, sometimes like wine. There is no denying the beauty of many of his ideas. And, a handful of his compositions are among my very favorites - the Op 1 Piano Quartet, the Octet, the Third Symphony and the Hebrides Overture.

I get annoyed sometimes with how dismissive he was of Schumann's music, but I can see why. The two were miles apart when it came to "flow". Few things seemed to come easy to Schumann. That being said, I find the best of Schumann's music far more intense and moving than Mendelssohn's. What it lacks in naturalness it makes up for in resonance (but resonance argues a "sounding board", and everyone's personal "sounding board" is different.)

Mendelssohn and Schumann - I wouldn't really want to be without either of them.

How either one of them is "rated" makes no difference to me unless their being "underrated" means their music will disappear from the shelves.


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## Klassic

We are moving into a time when many of the greats will fall into greater obscurity. They are being drowned out by the static of unmusical noise, which is so prevalent in our culture.


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## mmsbls

These threads always fascinate me. I read the responses, but often I don't know how good people think Mendelssohn actually was. When someone says that Mendelssohn is overrated, they may think he's rated say near the top 10 and believe he should be say 15. When others say he's underrated, they may feel he's around 20-30 group and believe he should be say 15. Without knowing how highly one thinks he's rated, it's hard to know what people truly believe.

In two TC votes Mendelssohn came in 11 and 16. Goulding's book places him at 11. So he seems to be "rated" close to top 10 or perhaps a bit lower. I would place him close to 10 so maybe I think on TC he is slightly "underrated."

I adore much of his output - symphonies (especially 3 and 4 and to a lesser extent the string symphonies), concertos (Violin, Piano Concerto No. 1, and Concerto for Violin and Piano), chamber music (especially the octet, Piano trio 1 and cello works, but also the quintets, quartets, and Piano sextet), Songs without Words, A Midsummer Night's Dream, several overtures (especially Hebrides), and oratorios (Elijah and St Paul).


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## SixFootScowl

Especially amazing is the String Quartet, F minor Op80 which Felix wrote upon his sister's death.


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## arnerich

Florestan said:


> Especially amazing is the String Quartet, F minor Op80 which Felix wrote upon his sister's death.


I agree, if you haven't heard this piece I say drop whatever it is you're doing and listen to it.


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## KenOC

Question: Some time back I got in a discussion with a Wiki editor who claimed that Mendelssohn’s current reputation suffers because his music was banned in German-controlled countries in WWII. I asked what evidence he had of this, but he pretty much dismissed my concerns. Since he was the primary author of the Mendelssohn entry, I let it go.

But I still wonder: Does the banning of Mendelssohn’s music in those countries during the Nazi era really impair his reputation today? What do you think?


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## Richannes Wrahms

Or the contrary, poor little Mendelssohn with his innocent music we must save this victim of prejudice. I'd rather "save" Ligeti from being called a film composer or whatnot.


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## Nereffid

mmsbls said:


> In two TC votes Mendelssohn came in 11 and 16. Goulding's book places him at 11. So he seems to be "rated" close to top 10 or perhaps a bit lower. I would place him close to 10 so maybe I think on TC he is slightly "underrated."


The way I read my A la carte polls - which is tricky because those were based on works, not composers, so I base my guesstimates on data such as how popular a composer's 10 most popular works are - Mendelssohn's around 20th.
In terms of Arkiv recordings, he's 11th, and in terms of (1980) Grove article length he's 18th. Charles Smith's list of composers, which is an elaborate concoction also based on those sort of data, puts him 18th too.

Yes, I am a total nerd.

Incidentally, Mendelssohn probably wouldn't make my top 30, but that doesn't mean I don't think very highly of his music or think he's overrated. Maybe "overrated" or "underrated" would only really make sense if we were talking about a composer being dozens or even hundreds of places "too high" or "too low".


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## Genoveva

Mendelssohn generally comes in at around the 10-17 rank on most assessments I've seen in various places, including two polls here and several outside sources that were based on different criteria. 

Given the limited accuracy of polls/assessments of things like this, I think that this range fairly encapsulates Mendelssohn's popularity across the globe generally. In some countries he may be ranked higher or lower than in this range. I suspect that in Germany, for example, he would be considered at least at the higher end of the range (nearer 10 than 17). 

In my opinion, he was an extremely gifted composer and deserves to be in the No 10 spot that I placed him in a favourite composer thread recently. He composed in all of the genres that I value, and made significant compositions in each. He was able to produce some really good melodies, which seemed to pour out of him without much effort. Sadly, he was another composer who died way too early.


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## Pjotr

arnerich said:


> I agree, if you haven't heard this piece I say drop whatever it is you're doing and listen to it.


Well, I just did that... This is a bit of a revelation to me I must say. I know (and like) all Mendelssohns most popular works, but this really stands out.


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## Enthusiast

I don't know about ranking him but I can certainly think of quite a large number of composers (more than 25) who I prefer to him. At the same time I will grant that some of those _may _not be as great as he was. For example, I greatly prefer the music I know of Cesar Franck but would not argue with someone who said that FM was the greater composer.


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## Eusebius12

DaveM said:


> When the overall rating of Mendelssohn's music is considered, I'm always amazed how often his Songs Without Words are not mentioned. At their best, they are arguably the equal of some of the most loved piano solo works of Chopin and Schumann.
> 
> There is no solo piano piece quite like the SWW Op19#1. This is a particularly nice version by Perahia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then there is the solemn beauty of the Op38#6 (Duetto). This should not be played too fast or too slow. This is just about right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a wonderful version of the Duetto for Quartet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Solemn beauty (but also sadness) also applies to the op53#4 (Sadness of Soul or Melancholy). This is often played far too fast given its title:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Op30#3 is a simple piece, simply beautiful:


The Songs Without Words, with a couple of exceptions, are probably considered to be lacking drama. The Variations Serieuses though, as its title implies, is sturdy stuff with a note of drama. But not more drama than we see in Mozart from time to time.


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## Eusebius12

Fritz Kobus said:


> I am reading the book Felix Mendelssohn and His Times by Heinrich Eduard Jacob. In it is a quote that Mendelssohn "was producing more independent ideas than Mozart at the same age [12], for the latter had turned out nothing but adroit imitations of his models."


Unfortunately in later life the position was very much reversed. Nevertheless, the best of Mendelssohn makes up for his weaker and waterier moments. Mendelssohn was very much in the thrall of the past. He consciously sought to evoke Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Weber in his works (and a little Schubert as well). I think he would have done better just to be himself. He was overpraised in England (for a long time a musical graveyard) which I think was unhealthy for him, he molded his music thereafter at times to perfectly suit Victorian taste. Sometimes he seeks formal correctness at the expense of the free flow of his ideas and passionate expression of them. Still he was one of the true wunderkinder with some amazing works before the age of 20.


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## Eusebius12

KenOC said:


> Question: Some time back I got in a discussion with a Wiki editor who claimed that Mendelssohn's current reputation suffers because his music was banned in German-controlled countries in WWII. I asked what evidence he had of this, but he pretty much dismissed my concerns. Since he was the primary author of the Mendelssohn entry, I let it go.
> 
> But I still wonder: Does the banning of Mendelssohn's music in those countries during the Nazi era really impair his reputation today? What do you think?


No I don't think so. He was virtually out of fashion in Germany before WWI, possibly well before. He maintained a certain popularity in anglophone countries, at least within the British Empire and then the major Commonwealth countries.


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## Eusebius12

Pjotr said:


> Well, I just did that... This is a bit of a revelation to me I must say. I know (and like) all Mendelssohns most popular works, but this really stands out.


It is quite Schubertian, but not in an imitative way. I say this as a compliment in this case 

Just as Mendelssohn's early quartets compare well with early Beethoven.


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## Eusebius12

Gabriel Faure is the most underrated of the truly great. Also Reinhold Keiser, Philippe Rogier, Froberger and Franz Schmidt. Also Percy Grainger, who isn't rated at all, yet if you actually listen to the range of his music you see that he was a genius. Not that Mendelssohn wasn't a _greater_ genius, but unfortunately due to various factors he rarely let the full scope of his genius forth.


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## Eusebius12

Eusebius12 said:


> Gabriel Faure is the most underrated of the truly great. Also Reinhold Keiser, Philippe Rogier, Froberger and Franz Schmidt. Also Percy Grainger, who isn't rated at all, yet if you actually listen to the range of his music you see that he was a genius. Not that Mendelssohn wasn't a _greater_ genius, but unfortunately due to various factors he rarely let the full scope of his genius forth.


Ernest Toch as well. Samuel Taylor-Coleridge. Richard Meale. Vischnegradsky. Cuclin. Skulte. Eller. Novak. Holmboe. Kalomiris.

That's enough to be getting on with.


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## kyjo

No, he isn't. I enjoy a lot of his music, but I would never say he's underrated. There are scores of composers that I think are much more underrated than Mendelssohn.


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## Gallus

According to Bachtrack.com, in 2017 Mendelssohn was the 11th most performed composer in concert. TC's 50 Greatest Composers list also has Mendelssohn in 11th. Is Mendelssohn the 11th best composer of all time? I like his music, but if anything I think 11th is slightly overrating him.

Also for purely sociological reasons I doubt any talented composer from mid-19th c. Germany will ever be _underrated_. That goes for Schumann too, who is in a similar position.


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## Bulldog

Based on general consensus, Mendelssohn is probably somewhere between 10 and 20. Personally, I'd have trouble placing him in the top 50.


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## Pjotr

Eusebius12 said:


> It is quite Schubertian, but not in an imitative way. I say this as a compliment in this case
> 
> Just as Mendelssohn's early quartets compare well with early Beethoven.


I've been listening to it about 10 times since I first heard it yesterday. Nice you mention Schubert here. This work gives you a look deep into the artists soul, just like Schubert does with his quintet. This quartet is completely different of course, but the adagio is just as heartbreaking as the adagio from the quintet.

Mendelssohns portfolio is so divers. It's not only the violin concerto and the 3th and 4th symphony. When I listen to for instance the Nocturne from A Midsummer Nights Dream I easely put him in the top 10. His Lobgesang and the Christmas Oratorium haven't been mentioned here I think. And the list of overtures is not limited to The Hebrides and Meeresstille und Gluckliche Fahrt. Ruy Blas, The Fair Melusine, the Trumpet Overture are all masterpieces.


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## KenOC

Pjotr said:


> ...And the list of overtures is not limited to The Hebrides and Meeresstille und Gluckliche Fahrt. Ruy Blas, The Fair Melusine, the Trumpet Overture are all masterpieces.


I'd add the overture to his _Elijah_, though it is rarely recorded out of context. Opening with the theme to "Jaws," it's an intensely Beethovenian work.


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## Pjotr

KenOC said:


> I'd add the overture to his _Elijah_, though it is rarely recorded out of context. Opening with the theme to "Jaws," it's an intensely Beethovenian work.


Yes, and then we should also add the Double quartet "Denn er hat seinen Engeln befohlen, For he shall give his angels".


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## kyjo

Though I don't think Mendelssohn in general is underrated, I think a couple of his works deserve to be played more, such as the first two symphonies, some of the later string symphonies, and the 2nd cello sonata.


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## larold

Mendelssohn came in 18th in my survey of composers, ahead of Ravel, Chopin, Debussy, Mahler and others and behind the greatest and others such as Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Stravinsky. That puts him in the top drawer, I'd say, and his music confirms that place in history. I wouldn't call him underrated.


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## SixFootScowl

larold said:


> Mendelssohn came in 18th in my survey of composers, ahead of Ravel, Chopin, Debussy, Mahler and others and behind the greatest and others such as Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Stravinsky. That puts him in the top drawer, I'd say, and his music confirms that place in history. I wouldn't call him underrated.


Underrated by some, but not by those who have really delved into his music.


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## Enthusiast

I must be an underrater! There are few of his works I like so much and those that I do still don't seem to be as good as his peers. I've tried to change my view quite a lot but I always come to the conclusion that he is a lesser (but still significant) Romantic composer. I probably prefer him to Saint-Saens but I prefer the few SS works that I really do like to anything of Mendelssohn's.


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## Larkenfield

larold said:


> Mendelssohn came in 18th in my survey of composers, ahead of Ravel, Chopin, Debussy, Mahler and others and behind the greatest and others such as Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Stravinsky. That puts him in the top drawer, I'd say, and his music confirms that place in history. I wouldn't call him underrated.


The three Mendelssohn works that I cannot do without is his Italian Symphony, Violin Concerto, and Midsummer Nights Dream. They simply sparkle and are beyond compare for what they are. But compared to the composers mentioned above, I believe that he's played far less in the concert halls with less interest and I would place him near the bottom. Nevertheless, he's a wonderful composer and I doubt if he will ever be forgotten if for no other reason than Wagner's unfair attack on one of the most important composers of the Romantic era. He could do everything and Robert Schumann held him in very high esteem For his genius and versatility.


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## hammeredklavier

One of very few composers in history who had no financial problem and had freedom to write anything in whatever way he pleased all his life. 
I mean unlike Bach, who was scorned by his church officials for using elaborate embellishments with his organ works.
Mozart, whom in his teenage years in Salzburg, the archbishop always demanded to keep his liturgical works short and easy with no virtuousic arias or choral fugues. 
Beethoven, who reluctantly had to write King Stephen against his true artist spirit in order to make a living.
Rich Boy Mendie had none of this **** to deal with. Can you imagine it?


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## NLAdriaan

hammeredklavier said:


> One of very few composers in history who had no financial problem and had freedom to write anything in whatever way he pleased all his life.
> I mean unlike Bach, who was scorned by his church officials for using elaborate embellishments with his organ works.
> Mozart, whom in his teenage years in Salzburg, the archbishop always demanded to keep his liturgical works short and easy with no virtuousic arias or choral fugues.
> Beethoven, who reluctantly had to write King Stephen against his true artist spirit in order to make a living.
> Rich Boy Mendie had none of this **** to deal with. Can you imagine it?


The Rhetorical Q is: Would he have written differently if he had lived under difficult circumstances? Generally speaking: Misery and pain has brought the world the most memorable art.

BTW, when I look at this painting of Mendelssohn (Wiki) at age 12







my first impression is not that I am looking at a Felix.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

larold said:


> Mendelssohn came in 18th in my survey of composers, ahead of Ravel, Chopin, Debussy, Mahler and others and behind the greatest and others such as Prokofiev, Shostakovich and Stravinsky. That puts him in the top drawer, I'd say, and his music confirms that place in history. I wouldn't call him underrated.


Could you please link to this survey? I'm curious to see what the results were.


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## SixFootScowl

hammeredklavier said:


> Rich Boy Mendie had none of this **** to deal with. Can you imagine it?


It is my understanding that his parents basically provided him with a chamber orchestra as a "toy" and so the child played and the result is amazing!


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## SixFootScowl

NLAdriaan said:


> The Rhetorical Q is: Would he have written differently if he had lived under difficult circumstances? Generally speaking: Misery
> and pain has brought the world the most memorable art.


I do think that Felix had his misery and pain. Forgive any inaccuracies in this, as I am recollecting from my readings of a few years ago but...

First, there may have been the stigma of Jewishness. Remember his grandfather changed their name to Bartholdy and became a Christiian (Felix was baptized in the Christian church). That may have been a struggle as Felix never did like the Bartholdy name. Oddly he did not seem to fully embrace Judaism and even wrote a symphony commemorating the Reformation and in the last movement incorporating the melody of the famous Christian Hymn "A Mighty Fortress is our God". Of course his oratorio Elijah is both Jewish and Christian since it is from the Jewish Scriptures / Christian Old Testament.

Second, Felix and his sister led a pretty sheltered life. Their parents were very restrictive. I have personally seen the results of such sheltering when done to excess and it can mess kid up to the point that the baggage goes into adulthood.

But I am happy for the end result of all the great music. My only regret is that Felix didn't live long enough to achieve all that we wish for, and especially in the operatic field. He has several operas but none became mainstream (that I am aware of).


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## larold

_I think Mendelssohn is more or less correctly rated. A great composer. _

This is my opinion as well. He came in No. 18 in my survey a point behind Stravinsky and two ahead of Ravel. He also scored higher than Britten, Chopin, Debussy, Liszt, Vivaldi, Vaughan Williams, Rachmaninoff, Elgar and Mahler.

As to his life, my belief, supported by lots of what I've read, is that his was the happy life of a 19th century composer … regardless of what burdens there may have been.


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## Haydn70

NLAdriaan said:


> The Rhetorical Q is: Would he have written differently if he had lived under difficult circumstances? *Generally speaking: Misery and pain has brought the world the most memorable art.*
> 
> BTW, when I look at this painting of Mendelssohn (Wiki) at age 12
> View attachment 115145
> 
> my first impression is not that I am looking at a Felix.


One of the most absurd statements I have seen on TC.


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## Haydn70

Regarding this silliness that misery and pain result in remarkable art, here's is what Leonard Bernstein said:

"There's a popular myth that composers write the way they feel at the moment that they're writing, which is simply not true."

Go to the 25" mark in this video:


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## NLAdriaan

Haydn70 said:


> One of the most absurd statements I have seen on TC.


https://www.quora.com/Why-does-great-art-come-from-great-pain

Here some more sophisticated views on this matter. Also enlightening to see how other groups manage to actually have a discussion on such a statement. They just do, I guess.


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## Larkenfield

Haydn70 said:


> Regarding this silliness that misery and pain result in remarkable art, here's is what Leonard Bernstein said:
> 
> "There's a popular myth that composers write the way they feel at the moment that they're writing, which is simply not true."
> 
> Go to the 25" mark in this video:


Bernstein's statement does not discount the fact that a composer's work can reflect their emotions and how they feel about life. How could they possibly write about anything without somehow feeling it first? Or is everything just intellectually conceived without a trace of emotion at the time they're writing something? I do not believe that he means what you think he means. But surely, if the composer is writing about tragedy, they don't necessarily have to feel tragic at the time. Nevertheless, there's Tchaikovsky 's highly emotional 6th Symphony. It's hard to believe that he was feeling all sweetness and light, full of joy and happiness when he wrote it, though if he was in too much emotional despair, he probably wouldn't have been able to write anything. But still, it would be hard to imagine that he didn't feel some sense of despair when he was at least writing part of it or deciding what to include in that highly emotional symphony. The music hardly sounds detached from his personal life and that he was writing about somebody else or writing abstractly. One of the great things about music is that you _can_ express how you're feeling at the time, and all musicians understand this. Composers aren't necessarily completely emotionally detached when they're writing, and that's the part Bernstein may have left out.


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## hammeredklavier

But being rich doesn't necessarily lead to being happy. Other composers weren't hobos or beggars on streets, they just had to spend a lot of time working (giving lessons and concerts) to make a living and could afford less time for composition and even in their compositions, they had to meet the demands of their employers and clients (which at times, inhibited their freedom of expression) compared to Mendelssohn. Also, I think the idea that misery is the only thing that helps a person mature in life is a one-dimensional way to seeing life. Whatabout passion, love, joy, longing, devotion and other human emotions?
Many of us appreciate Bach's work as art but at the same time it is accepted as fact that it doesn't reflect his life, his personal experience because he wasn't a Romantic. If Bach had more misery in life, would it have helped him write more artistically?



Larkenfield said:


> Nevertheless, there's Tchaikovsky 's highly emotional 6th Symphony. It's hard to believe that he was feeling all sweetness and light, full of joy and happiness when he wrote it, though if he was in too much emotional despair, he probably wouldn't have been able to write anything.


How do you explain the more bright sections of the piece? Was Tchaikovsky feeling sad and then, happy then sad again and the chronological progression of his emotion explains why he set structure the way he did? Was he having some kind of bipolar disorder?

Apparently for Chopin, creative ideas only came to him when he did not have a woman for a long time, regardless of his feelings at the time of composition. 
(someone argues over the authenticity of the letters, but I don't see any particular reason anyone would fabricate letters like them of Chopin)



hammeredklavier said:


> I remember reading about Chopin's view on this subject:
> 
> "Schumann had written a critical article in his music magazine about Chopin's "La ci Darem variations". In it he had compared a passage in the third variation to the scene in Mozart's Don Giovanni where Giovanni kisses Zelina on the D flat ("Des Dur" in
> German). In Polish "Des dur" resembles "des durka" a café in Warsaw which was a meeting point of artisits and intellectuals. It translates as "The little hole". This immediately became a private joke between the lovers: Chopin would write to Potocka and say " I long to kiss your des durka very, very hard."
> 
> Here is his written instruction to her on the use of the pedal:
> 
> "Treat it carefully, for it is not easy to win its intimacy and love. Like a society lady anxious about her reputation, it won't yield just like that. But when it does, yield, it can perform miracles, like an experienced mistress. PS. I would like to plonk something down your little hole in D flat major again. Do not refuse me. F.C."
> 
> Chopin had firm ideas about the relationship between sex and creativity:
> 
> Inspiration and ideas only come to me when I have not had a woman for a long time. When I have emptied my fluid into a woman so much I am pumped dry, inspiration deserts me and no new musical ideas come into my head. Think how strange and beautiful it is, that the force used to fertilise a woman, creating new life in her, is the same force that creates a work of art. It is the same life-giving fluid, yet man wastes it on one single moment of pleasure. The same is true of science. Those who make great discoveries must stay away from women. The formula is simple enough: A man must renounce women, then the energy accumulating in his system will go - not from his cock and balls into a woman - but into his brain in the form of inspiration where it might give birth to a work of art. Think of it, the sexual desire that drives men into women's arms can be transformed into inspiration. But only for those who have talent. A fool who lives without women will go mad with frustration. For the genius, unrequited love and unfulfilled passion, sharpened by the unattainable image of their beloved, is an endless source of inspiration".
> 
> How much Chopin and Delphina were at it, can be gathered from this letter written in 1833 (Phindela is an anagram of Delphina):
> 
> "Oh my sweetest Phindela, think of how much of that precious fluid I have wasted on you ramming away at you to no good purpose. I have not given you a baby and think how many musical ideas have been squandered inside you. Ballads, Polonaises, perhaps even an entire concerto have been lost forever up your D flat major, I cannot tell you how many. I have been so deeply immersed in my love for you I have hardly created anything, everything creative went straight from my cock into your "des durka". Works that could have seen the light of day are forever drowned in your D flat major. You are now carrying so much of my music in your womb that you are pregnant with my compositions. The saints were right when they said that women were the gates of hell. No, no, I take that back. You are the gates of heaven. For you I will give up fame, work, everything.
> 
> [he then writes her a little poem]
> 
> *** you is my favourite occupation
> Bed beats inspiration
> I long for your lovely ****
> So says your faithful Fritz
> 
> [it probably reads better in French]
> […] Oh Phindela, my own little Phindela, how I long to be with you. I am trembling and shivering as if ants were crawling all over me from my brain down to my cock. When the coach will at long last bring you back I'll cling so hard that for a whole week you won't be able to get me out of your des durka. Bother all inspiration, ideas and works of art. Let my works vanish up that black hole forever.[…] I kiss you all over your dear little body and inside.
> 
> Your faithful Frycek, your most talented pupil who has mastered the art of love ."


What are your thoughts on Charles Hazlewood's 'unorthodox' view that Mozart's sonata K310 and symphony K550 are products of his anguish over death of his family members?


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## KenOC

FWIW I've read that Felix M was occasionally subject to great rages, so angry that he had to be put to bed and recover through sleep. Hard to believe! Anyway, it's supposed to be true...


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## Larkenfield

Bach, say, writing Cantatas is not a reflection of his life, his interests, and faith? I don’t see why not. Perhaps he felt a closer connection with God when writing one based on a Lutheran reference or text. It’s not exactly that everything was impersonal for composers even during the Baroque period, though I doubt whether the music was about themselves and their personal self-expression as much as it was for the Romantics. Let's stop the dismissiveness about the Romantics. There can be many things that motivate a composer, but to think that nothing that they compose has no connection with their inner life as self-expression doesn’t add up whether the composer was a Romantic or not. Any composer has to be getting something out of it for himself or there would be no satisfaction. There's some measure of emotion or devotion that's felt when a composer writes and a musician plays.


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## Larkenfield

One side of Mendelssohn that I haven't been exposed to before (and like):


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## Larkenfield

I haven't heard his String Octet in a while and thought it was marvelous. Even at such a young age, one can still hear his own voice that sometimes sounds like the sparkling work of angels and fairies.


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## Larkenfield

Awesome Mendelssohn Prelude and Fugue in E Minor, written when he was 32:






The more I hear his organ works the more his stock is rising.


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## Larkenfield

It's been an all Mendelssohn evening hearing much that I've never had the time before. Nothing is badly done even if some of his lesser works are on the conservative side and not as harmonically daring as his colleagues Chopin, Schumann and Liszt. Here's a religious work that has a lively ending, heard by an appreciative audience.


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## Larkenfield

Wonderful recording by Otto Klemperer of Mendelssohn's 3rd "Scottish" Symphony. Beautifully recorded sound:






And the "Italian"... the end of a wonderful evening of listening... Hail, Mendelssohn!


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## Fabulin

Mendelssohn is the only composer who reliably does not disappoint me when I explore his lesser-known works.






Some have trouble putting his music in the top 50; I have trouble keeping it out of the top 5...

And I think I've reached the point of decision that the cult of vaguely defined "talent", "who came first", "who struggled more", and other external factors - instead of a cult of works of art - is not for me. I can have sympathy for the struggling and unappreciated in their time, for those who made something out of very little, but ultimately even that does not change the notes on the paper.


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