# Are Beethoven's chamber works for the mature ear?



## Lord Lance

I couldn't help to notice that how different my taste for Beethoven's chamber works were compared to his orchestral works. His String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear? A person with years of experience listening to chamber works and a rudimentary understanding of B's Chamber Works' Conception. They've struck me as a little dense.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

You should try his violin sonatas, maybe you'll like them better - the Spring and Kreutzer sonatas are excellent, for example.


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## TurnaboutVox

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> [...] Beethoven's[...] String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear? A person with years of experience listening to chamber works [...] They've struck me as a little dense.


Well, I got into Beethoven's string quartets, cellos sonatas and piano trios in my early 20s on my return to classical music after a gap during my teens, so I'd not say that a 'mature' ear is needed.

Yes, they are a little dense, but if you've tried, for instance, the opus 18 string quartets, the early piano trios of Op. 1, the 3 violin sonatas of Op.12 or the 'cello sonatas Op. 5 and still find you can't appreciate them, then perhaps they are not for you at present.

Do you like other composers' chamber music? Have you tried Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Dvorak or Brahms, to name but a few whose work can be easily accessible? (though I'm not suggesting that what is easily accessed exhausts what might be obtained from engaging with them).

If you want to persist with Beethoven, however, the early Septet Op. 20 is good and not difficult - that might be one way in. Another possibility is the delightful and witty 12 Variations on 'See the conqu'ring hero comes', WoO45 for cello and piano.


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## Triplets

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I couldn't help to notice that how different my taste for Beethoven's chamber works were compared to his orchestral works. His String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear? A person with years of experience listening to chamber works and a rudimentary understanding of B's Chamber Works' Conception. They've struck me as a little dense.


 That is your loss. Some of the most incredible music ever penned is his chamber music.
There has been writing that Beethoven's Symphonies tend to be more 'extroverted', that he knew that more people would be listening to them than would be listening to his chamber music, and that he saved his most initimate thoughts for his chamber and instrumental music. perhaps that is what you are responding to.
I remember being hooked by the Middle String Quartets (Op. 59 1-3, op. 74, Op. 95) as my portal into his Chamber Music.
I would recommend starting there.


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## Lord Lance

I enjoy Chamber music, yes. I've listened to Dvorak's entire chamber output except his String Quartets. Haydn's piano trios and String Quartets are the love of my life. And also have listened to Brahms' entire chamber output. Processing through all of Mozart's delightful chamber music. Schubert, I dislike.


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## TurnaboutVox

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I enjoy Chamber music, yes. I've listened to Dvorak's entire chamber output except his String Quartets. Haydn's piano trios and String Quartets are the love of my life. And also have listened to Brahms' entire chamber output. Processing through all of Mozart's delightful chamber music. Schubert, I dislike.


So I guess a good starting point is your enjoyment of Haydn and Mozart.

The early Beethoven works I suggested above (Opp. 1, 5, 12, 18 and the string trios Op 3 & 8) are those which most clearly represent a continuation of / progression from Mozart and Haydn's chamber music. If you haven't already, it may be helpful to re-start there to get a sense of what Beethoven was trying to do differently with the form.

Good listening...


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## hpowders

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I couldn't help to notice that how different my taste for Beethoven's chamber works were compared to his orchestral works. His String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear? A person with years of experience listening to chamber works and a rudimentary understanding of B's Chamber Works' Conception. They've struck me as a little dense.


I feel the same way and I've been listening to these works for over 50 years. So my ears are "quite" mature. I just don't take to it. I'd rather listen to the Bartok and Mendelssohn Quartets.

Beethoven was not God. It is not a sin to dislike his music.


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## Guest

I realy love this string quartett.


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## Triplets

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I enjoy Chamber music, yes. I've listened to Dvorak's entire chamber output except his String Quartets. Haydn's piano trios and String Quartets are the love of my life. And also have listened to Brahms' entire chamber output. Processing through all of Mozart's delightful chamber music. Schubert, I dislike.


I pity you again, re Schubert. Look, no one can make you like something that you dislike. I just suggest that you keep an open mind. A lot of what currently is my favorite listening music didn't agree with me on the first go around. Right now I am listening to Tchaikovsky's 2nd Piano Concerto and actually enjoying it, for the first time ever, and this disc is about 20 years old. The Symphonies of Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler all had to be absorbed over the years, because it wasn't love at first listen, but now they are the core of my listening habits. Stay open and don't become dogmatic about your present beliefs, because you may be shutting yourself off to music that will make a difference in your life when you are ready for it to do so.
Back to Beethoven--do try the Razumovsky Quartets, Op. 59, 1-3.


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## Blake

Give it time. The density is from a lack of familiarity, in which the mind starts clumping things together that it doesn't comprehend. They'll start to open up and breath the more your ear adapts.


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## KenOC

For me, Beethoven's chamber music and piano sonatas took hold rather slowly. But these days I listen to them far more than his orchestral music. They are infinitely self-renewing.


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## Ukko

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I couldn't help to notice that how different my taste for Beethoven's chamber works were compared to his orchestral works. His String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear? A person with years of experience listening to chamber works and a rudimentary understanding of B's Chamber Works' Conception. They've struck me as a little dense.


Dense. That probably should be preceded by 'relatively'. Well. maybe 'dense' isn't the right word - as we 'mature' we tend to become more dense - or do you mean that we and the music eventually arrive at equal density?

I strongly suspect that it's the sound of the instruments together that is throwing off your appreciation, not any lack of specific gravity on your part. Listen to Op. 18 in the background for awhile, with something else in the foreground of your attention. The music will sneak in there, and the 'something else' will become the distraction. Ahem; this prediction does depend somewhat on just what activity is in the foreground. I will not give examples, Lars is watching me.


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## DiesIraeCX

KenOC said:


> For me, Beethoven's chamber music and piano sonatas took hold rather slowly. But these days I listen to them far more than his orchestral music. They are infinitely self-renewing.


I second KenOC's thoughts.

For me, I started with the symphonies and while I do give them a listen every now and then. By far, I listen to Beethoven's chamber music the most. I also second Triplet's thoughts that the symphonies are "extroverted" while his chamber music is "introverted" (with exceptions, of course).

I find the Late String Quartets to be the most poignant and profound music I've ever heard. My favorites are #14 (Op.131), #15 (Op.132), and #13 with Grosse Fuge ending.

For some people, the Piano Sonatas are on equal ground with the String Quartets.

Switching from orchestral works to chamber music isn't always the easiest transition for most, it wasn't for me. With time, you might even come to appreciate chamber music more. Just give it time, and it'll come to you. I hope.


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## Woodduck

I actually got into the chamber music via the late quartets, those supposedly most difficult works, at about age 16, when I was too naive to know how difficult they were. It was a close encounter of the first kind; I fell in love instantly. A good friend of mine, however, still finds them baffling, and we're in our sixties! I have no explanation for any of it. 

But another work I always loved was the "Archduke" Trio, a glorious piece of serene and playful perfection whose slow movement is a series of variations on a sarabande rhythm, with a coda of heartstopping beauty. I still think of this as the king of piano trios, and if you don't know it you need to drop everything and listen to it right now.


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## hpowders

The piano sonatas I have absolutely no trouble with. Each of the 32 is brilliant, many of them full of delightfully quirky humorous touches. I do admit from the middle quartets on, I get a bit restless at times.


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## DiesIraeCX

Woodduck said:


> I actually got into the chamber music via the late quartets, those supposedly most difficult works, at about age 16, when I was too naive to know how difficult they were. It was a close encounter of the first kind; I fell in love instantly. A good friend of mine, however, still finds them baffling, and we're in our sixties! I have no explanation for any of it.
> 
> But another work I always loved was the "Archduke" Trio, a glorious piece of serene and playful perfection whose slow movement is a series of variations on a sarabande rhythm, with a coda of heartstopping beauty. I still think of this as the king of piano trios, and if you don't know it you need to drop everything and listen to it right now.


Sixteen and listening to Beethoven's Late String Quartets, nice! I can't even remember what I was up to at sixteen, but I can assure you it was nothing of importance, haha.

Coincidentally, I just purchased the Archduke Trio and the Ghost Trio today at Half-Price, can't wait to listen to it! Thank you for the lovely review.


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## OlivierM

Since I listened to a lot of contemporary chamber music, before making myself available to classical and romantic eras, I think that on the contrary, classical era's chamber music is caracterized by a relative simplicity (and it's far from being a pejorative saying). So no, I don't think Beethoven's chamber music is particularily dense. I would say it has a virtuose simplicity that I enjoy thoroughly. It's relaxing and carrying, and far less analytical, without being obvious (well, most of the times).

But that's my just uneducated opinion.


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## Guest

I was 16 when I start to listen to the fifth symphony of Beethoven and I can asure you ,Bach was far away at that time.


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## Woodduck

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Sixteen and listening to Beethoven's Late String Quartets, nice! I can't even remember what I was up to at sixteen, but I can assure you it was nothing of importance, haha.
> 
> Coincidentally, I just purchased the Archduke Trio and the Ghost Trio today at Half-Price, can't wait to listen to it! Thank you for the lovely review.


That Naxos is a well-played performance, as I recall. I didn't hear the "Ghost" (another great work). Tell me what you think.


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## Ukko

^ ^ a couple posts up

Gotta agree with most of that. Much of the 'obvious' I characterize as 'inevitable', and I don't know what you mean by 'analytical' (figured that's the musicologist's job). And I claim first dibs on 'uneducated' here.


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## Polyphemus

When I got to the Late Quartets in my early 20's I came to an abrupt halt. It took me quite a while before I got to appreciate them. This was a little disconcerting as I had already formed a life long love affair with No 7 (like millions of others). It seemed as though LVB was composing in an early form of Esperanto and it took this mere mortal a long time to come to grips with their intricacies. But it was worth the wait.


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## Celiac Artery

I (in my early 20's) actually just started to listen to the Late Beethoven String Quartets two months ago. I think it was partly spurred by me reading the TC's top 50 list for string ensemble. I am coming out of a period in my life where classical music was diminished, however, I was still able to appreciate and even understand (to some degree) these late pieces. Granted, I did do some readings on the pieces before I started listening to help "catalyze" my comprehension and listening abilities. In the coming weeks, I will start working my way backwards towards Beethoven's Middle Period from Late in regards to his SQs.

I feel the Late SQs, in general, were not very accessible (for me) on the first hearing. Even the "emotional peaks" of the quartets (Ex. Cavatina for No. 13, "Holy Song of Thanksgiving" for No. 15) did not gather my full appreciation/interest until _at least_ the second hearing. Like Chopin's Ballade No. 4 or Beethoven's _Hammerklavier_ Sonata, some great works need multiple listening in order to "get" them. I don't think of it as a problem with maturity but more of a test in a listener's patience. Beethoven's Late SQs are so thick in harmonic richness and novelty, that (for me) can only be consumed in multiple meals.


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## Lord Lance

DiesIraeVIX said:


> Sixteen and listening to Beethoven's Late String Quartets, nice! I can't even remember what I was up to at sixteen, but I can assure you it was nothing of importance, haha.
> 
> Coincidentally, I just purchased the Archduke Trio and the Ghost Trio today at Half-Price, can't wait to listen to it! Thank you for the lovely review.


I am 16. 

Moving on, yes, I enjoy LvB's piano sonatas; granted, not all of them, but a lot of them.

From reading all of the posts here, I've deduced that patience and multiple hearing are the only solution. I'll be listening to each works five times then!


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## Lord Lance

Speaking of String Quartets, how are Shostakovich's String Quartets?


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## OlivierM

Chamber music, in my opinion, requires deeper concentration, and is more... intimate (auditor-composer) than the symphonic one.
There is no filling, one can hear everything, it's music in the full light, with a restricted amount of sounds and very limited amount of instruments. Foreground, background, and alterning. It's all in the details and the melody.
That's what makes it simple, yet difficult to apprehend, in my opinion, and why I like it so much.


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## TurnaboutVox

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> Speaking of String Quartets, how are Shostakovich's String Quartets?


To me, they are beautiful, intimate, angst-ridden, communicative of (amongst other things) rage, sadness and finally despair, acceptance and withdrawal. I didn't find them terribly difficult to 'get into' as from a 'musical' perspective they're quite conservative.


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## Lord Lance

As a starting point is Beethoven Complete Works [DG] great?


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## OlivierM

I don't have a very good opinion of complete editions, very often they provide the best interpretation of a piece that they published, which doesn't necessarily mean it will be the best one. 
For the piano trios, I would recommend the Beaux Arts Trio's box, or, for more recent a recording, the Trio Wanderer's one.
For the string quartets, Prazak Quartet's, Takac's, or Tokyo SQ's.


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## Art Rock

Although I love chamber music in general, I recently realized that I had not played Beethoven's chamber music for several years. So I took out the double CD with cello sonatas, and found them uninteresting (to avoid other words), whereas I absolutely love e.g. the Brahms ones. One of these days I will give the SQ's another chance.

Bottom line is indeed that you are not obliged to like everything, not even from the most famous composers.


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## DiesIraeCX

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I am 16.


That explains a lot. (You and I know what I'm referring to)


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## violadude

Don't worry, man. If you retain the exact same opinions throughout your existence that you did at 16 then you kinda fail life lol (no offense).

Sort of a backhanded way of saying, you'll get the Beethoven late quartets eventually.


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## Lord Lance

violadude said:


> Don't worry, man. If you retain the exact same opinions throughout your existence that you did at 16 then you kinda fail life lol (no offense).
> 
> Sort of a backhanded way of saying, you'll get the Beethoven late quartets eventually.


Contrary to popular belief, I am not "full of myself" or in any way whatsoever expecting to understand works as detailed and deep as Beethoven's late works.



DiesIraeVIX said:


> That explains a lot. (You and I know what I'm referring to)


PM me what you mean. I have no clue. Is it attitude?


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## tokatila

My development has been from beer and symphonies to cognaq and quartets. Could not stand the latter as I was younger, now I fully enjoy both depending on my mood. So maybe some taste acquisition is required...


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## fjf

Same here. I tried to like the Beethoven string quartets when I was younger with no luck. I found the music violent, lacking melody and strident. Like violins fighting eachother. Reading this and other threads, I decided to try again. I am now listening to the late quartets by the Tokyo quartet (the early RCA recording), and I am feeling emotions I hadn't in a loooooong time. What a wonderful music!.


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## DiesIraeCX

fjf said:


> Same here. I tried to like the Beethoven string quartets when I was younger with no luck. I found the music violent, lacking melody and strident. Like violins fighting eachother. Reading this and other threads, I decided to try again. I am now listening to the late quartets by the Tokyo quartet (the early RCA recording), and I am feeling emotions I hadn't in a loooooong time. What a wonderful music!.


I love the way you put that. Beethoven's _Late Quartets_ is my favorite body of work in Classical. Period. However, I would *still* say that some of it sounds like violins fighting each other, haha! That's part of why I love them so much, there's a certain eccentricity and peculiarity that goes perfectly with the profundity. There's nothing quite like it.

I hear the first movement of SQ #15 as a "lively" conversation between a couple people. I'm probably the only one, but it's what I hear.


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## KenOC

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I hear the first movement of SQ #15 as a "lively" conversation between a couple people. I'm probably the only one, but it's what I hear.


You sure you don't mean #16?


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## DiesIraeCX

KenOC said:


> You sure you don't mean #16?


I see what you mean with #16, but I meant #15, I can't help but hear the strings "responding" to each other as if they're conversing (or arguing!).


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## KenOC

DiesIraeVIX said:


> I see what you mean with #16, but I meant #15, I can't help but hear the strings "responding" to each other as if they're conversing (or arguing!).


 .............................................................


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## hpowders

I believe ALL chamber works are for mature listeners. Take a music listening novice to a chamber concert and watch him cough and squirm.

Chamber works should only be approached after a thorough grounding in basic orchestral classical music listening.


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## GKC

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I couldn't help to notice that how different my taste for Beethoven's chamber works were compared to his orchestral works. His String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear? A person with years of experience listening to chamber works and a rudimentary understanding of B's Chamber Works' Conception. They've struck me as a little dense.


The Editor of the magazine American Record Guide doesn't care for B's middle or late quartets, and he knows and loves classical music as much as anybody I know. Now, me, I couldn't live without his quartets, but I'm sure there are many classical music lovers that don't have much use for them.

You could try listening to the early ones, and maybe one movement at a time from the middle ones and staying clear of the late ones to see if the others grow on you.

I really can't stand his 11th and the Grosse Fuge, which I'm sure is a heresy to many here.

GKC


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## Chronochromie

The late quartets were, and some still are, difficult for me. I found Bartok's 4th quartet easier than Beethoven's 14th at first listen!


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## SixFootScowl

As a historic but limited classical listener (until about when I joined this site), I still, for the most part, have not been able to get into the chamber works, nor the violin sonatas. I much prefer full orchestra. I haven't even explored the piano concertos that much, preferring violin concertos. But really, right now I am stuck on symphonies and opera.


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## mtmailey

His chamber music is for anyone some just like his works for orchestra better though.I do find certain string quartets like opus 59,74 & 95 i like the most.


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## hpowders

His chamber music is liked by people who like chamber music, admittedly, not one of my passions.


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## fjf

Der Leiermann said:


> The late quartets were, and some still are, difficult for me. I found Bartok's 4th quartet easier than Beethoven's 14th at first listen!


Haydn, Mozart and the Dvorak 12th (the american) are easier, more melodic. Start with them.


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## Vaneyes

Mature ear? *Depends* on the Opus. String Quartets, Op. 18 are very approachable, as are Violin Sonatas, Opp. 23, 24, and Piano Sonatas, Op.2.:tiphat:


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## Lord Lance

fjf said:


> Haydn, Mozart and the Dvorak 12th (the american) are easier, more melodic. Start with them.


Haydn's SQ = genius
Haydn's SQ>Mozart's SQ



GKC said:


> The Editor of the magazine American Record Guide doesn't care for B's middle or late quartets, and he knows and loves classical music as much as anybody I know. Now, me, I couldn't live without his quartets, but I'm sure there are many classical music lovers that don't have much use for them.
> 
> You could try listening to the early ones, and maybe one movement at a time from the middle ones and staying clear of the late ones to see if the others grow on you.
> 
> I really can't stand his 11th and the Grosse Fuge, which I'm sure is a heresy to many here.
> 
> GKC


Ha! I rather enjoy Grosse Fugue purely from a virtuosic viewpoint.....


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## OlivierM

hpowders said:


> I believe ALL chamber works are for mature listeners. Take a music listening novice to a chamber concert and watch him cough and squirm.
> 
> Chamber works should only be approached after a thorough grounding in basic orchestral classical music listening.


Late answer, but I will have to disagree. 
I have started by chamber works, and rarely listen to symphonic works, that I usually find annoyingly pompous, most instruments being used to play one or two notes ad libitum, leading to an impoverishment of the general understanding of composition (of course, there are some exceptions, but it's the general rule for me).

It's my uneducated guess, but if there had been records or means of amplification, back in the day, orchestral works would be pretty scarce in the repertoire.

I enjoy many violin, cello or piano concerti, though, but it came far later than chamber music.


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## PetrB

Chamber works from many a composer often have the quality of sounding more "private," "interior," and intimate than larger more overt works from the same composer. If maturity is going for, in a way, the less grandly dramatic, a pared-down instrumental color palette, etc. then, yes, a lot of chamber music (not just Beethoven's) would likely come to be appreciated later in life. I don't think it is a matter of a later harmonic vocabulary, though some of late Beethoven, string Q's, piano sonatas, are far more 'abstracted' than his earlier works.

Don't fret it. There is often a very typical progression of 'getting into classical,' and that includes first larger symphonic works, more "obvious," more "grand-scale," epic, etc -- these tend to grab the initiate listener quite readily, for 'obvious' -- yet good -- and very real reasons.... 

Most typically, many a listener's ear was first taken with music of Beethoven, Tchaikovsky or another romantic or late romantic composer, and whatever the composer or pieces, if instrumental, it is the larger symphonic works. The "pared down" resource(s) of a piano solo or a string quartet are often leaving this sort of listener flat -- and I suppose it takes a while, that while getting not over but less always impressed with those larger and aggressively overt works, to 'get' the chamber music.


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## Bulldog

Ludwig van Beethoven said:


> I couldn't help to notice that how different my taste for Beethoven's chamber works were compared to his orchestral works. His String Quartets, Piano Trios and Cello Sonatas don't enrapture me. Are these works for a mature ear?


Not at all. I've loved Beethoven's chamber works for years, and I have yet to reach my maturity. Concerning those Cello Sonatas, listen to the first two again - they're absolutely delightful, particularly on period instruments.


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## Bulldog

hpowders said:


> I feel the same way and I've been listening to these works for over 50 years. So my ears are "quite" mature. I just don't take to it. I'd rather listen to the Bartok and Mendelssohn Quartets.
> 
> Beethoven was not God. It is not a sin to dislike his music.


Hey, I'm not a religious guy, but if God exists, no reason to think it couldn't be Beethoven (or you).


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## shed

Sony seems to think so.


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## starthrower

Bill McGlaughlin is doing a great series on the Beethoven string quartets this week.


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