# Foreign language & music



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

I only know one language, and that is English. So, many of the great choral works -- whether they be operas, Requiems, or lieder -- are in many ways _foreign_ to me. Of course, I enjoy the music, the things I can hear and sympathize with, but I have to read translations to get the lyrical message behind the piece.

This greatly irks me, because if I don't hear the piece consistently, I don't recall the translation. And if I hear a new piece, I can only hear the voice as another instrument. I feel like I'm always missing the complete narrative.

So, do you feel the same way about listening to music in a language you don't understand? Do you read translations, pay special effort to memorize your favorite works? Or do you just look past the actual lyrics, enjoy the words merely as sound, another instrument? Or are you multilingual?


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

When I listen to Handel who is often in English I find myself thinking these lyrics or librettos are sometimes cringe-worthy. "We, like sheep" repeated over and over is an unfortunate example. I almost prefer classical in a language other than English. Having listened to it for several decades now I find I can often understand the gist of the meaning because the root words have a common ancestor. German especially seems almost comprehensible to me. I'm far from multilingual though. 

For some reason the same is not true with non-classical. I've never been able to get into Rock Progressivo Italiano for instance. Words are of lower importance to me, and I get frustrated with people who say "I can't understand what he's yelling!" but without the lyrical content I think I notice the flaws in the singing. Progressive rock can have a LOT of singing flaws.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I suppose in a perfect hi-tech world we would all have a little ear-to-brain implant which would auto-translate everything as we listen but for me following a text/libretto is a small price to pay in order to make full sense of a work. Some listeners don't necessarily prioritise the text as long as they can get the gist of the overall story but in my case the words are important enough to want to know what's actually being sung, whether it be a full-blown opera or a brief art song. I feel that I'm being far more inconvenienced if I'm listening to a vocal/choral work and don't have any accompanying texts/translations at all - in fact, I think it can actually detract from the experience.


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I actually know a lot of popular music in foreign languages and get used to it fine. The melody, arrangement and performance can carry a song. Sometimes you have to get used to a different style of vocal but that's just getting used to the style often.

Classical song can also be appreciated often because of the melody/arrangement/performance aspect. However you often can get more from the words as the music changes more often to the words than happens in popular song. So the lyrics can contain more development and aren't always as simple as in popular music where it is often simply sad love song/happy love song.


----------



## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

elgars ghost said:


> ...I feel that I'm being far more inconvenienced if I'm listening to a vocal/choral work and don't have any accompanying texts/translations at all - in fact, I think it can actually detract from the experience.


I have felt that same inconvenience. But, you know, I've reminded myself more than once that there's a search engine, so after typing "libretto" or "lyrics" followed by a title, I've usually found them, which has been a surprise, really. Finding them among all the hits on the first search page may take a bit of click-through time, but usually lyrics for an art song or aria or pop song can be very helpful, as you've said, for understanding the context of the piece. That's what I do, anyway. Hope that's helpful.


----------



## Rhythm (Nov 2, 2013)

Avey said:


> ...Or do you just look past the actual lyrics, enjoy the words merely as sound, another instrument?...


I would say another instrument, actually.

Frequently, I turn off a want to hear consonants, which leaves vowel sounds to listen for. To me, when listening to vocalists' arias or a chorale, the production of a vowel sound is more important than consonants. Sometimes, during a piece, consonants might be distinguished, and for me even a timbre of say a contralto could leave me wanting to distinguish vowel sounds.

Finding the lyrics is the only way to keep me from throwing my hands in the air! Having lyrics handy is pretty helpful, in any regard.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Avey said:


> So, do you feel the same way about listening to music in a language you don't understand? Do you read translations, pay special effort to memorize your favorite works? Or do you just look past the actual lyrics, enjoy the words merely as sound, another instrument? Or are you multilingual?


For me it's both ways. I want to understand everything that is being sung, and I look up lyrics and translations when the language is completely unfamiliar. But I also enjoy the sound of many languages, such as Italian or Norwegian. I had a wonderful experience with Grieg's lieder recently.

The only foreign languages I understand are English and German, and I mostly listen to German and Austrian classical music, so I do understand most of the lyrics. At the same time I greatly enjoy the sound of the language itself, the interplay of vowels and consonants, as an element that enhances the beauty of the whole musical piece (maybe in ten years or so it will be just an ordinary, everyday thing for me, but for now I still find the sound of the language to be exotic and fascinating, both when spoken and sung). My beloved Wagner and Schubert would simply not be the same without it.


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I always think of the voice as another instrument as well, it's used as such anyway. And really you could say it's the best instrument as far as variety of expression.

Also another point on progressive music, much of it can be instrumental not vocal, so where it is from can become even less relevant. Better to look at some foreign ones than some of the overhyped and overmarketed English language ones. Though I'd exclude Pink Floyd who are pretty good, and I don't rate Tangerine Dream that high (though some offshoots were better I feel).


----------



## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

In general, music is more important than words to me, so once I've read the libretto once or twice so I know what's going on, I don't need to know every word in every line being sung. Exceptions, of course, are church music in Latin. Once you know the mass text, for instance, you know it, so it serves for many pieces.

Handel, as someone mentioned, is weird, because he adapted an Italianate style of composition popular in England at the time, to a language totally unsuited to it


----------



## lupinix (Jan 9, 2014)

sometimes even if I know the language I can't follow the text
even english 
as for my own language, I usually can't even recognize it 
but I rather listen to music than text anyway so I don't mind much


----------



## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

lupinix said:


> sometimes even if I know the language I can't follow the text
> even english
> as for my own language, I usually can't even recognize it
> but I rather listen to music than text anyway so I don't mind much


I remember the story of a setting of "life is but a melancholy flower" which sounded like:

life is
life is butter
life is butter melon
butter melon
cauliflower

It reduced the audience to fits of giggles. Sometimes, it may help not to know the language.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Foreign languages don't irk me at all whether it be opera or choral works.
I follow along with the libretto or translation until I no longer need it.
One doesn't have to understand every word. After a while one recognizes certain words or phrases common to most works in the foreign language: "let's go", "I love you", "die! "leave me", etc; in operas, for example, and thus one can follow along. All you need is a few common phrases to know what's going on.


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

As far as I am concerned, the words are just there as an excuse for the music, and I generally couldn't possibly care less what they mean. I think I actually prefer not to know, and I also don't mind when the words are just meaningless syllables, as some composers now and then do.


----------



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> My beloved Wagner and Schubert would simply not be the same without it.


That's the problem, right? That's what annoys me. Because I don't understand their language, I am missing a large part of the narrative.

It's interesting that many of you have said "you get the gist of it," or with a few phrases, "you can know what's going on."

Is that enough? Isn't that sort of settling for what it is -- music in a different language? I don't think getting the "gist" of what's going on is what I've always been looking for.

And it seems like this may be OK in an opera, if you are watching purely for the story -- you have bodies to interpret from as well. But with lieder/songs, or Requiems & Masses, or other large scale choral works, we only have ears. I can't listen to the piece with one listen and _fully_ grasp what that music was about. It may have sounded amazing, but I am always wondering and struggling to understand the lyrical meaning.


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Avey said:


> It's interesting that many of you have said "you get the gist of it," or with a few phrases, "you can know what's going on."
> 
> Is that enough? Isn't that sort of settling for what it is -- music in a different language? I don't think getting the "gist" of what's going on is what I've always been looking for.


It depends, of course, on how much you want to know. If you want to pick up on subtleties of word-painting and dissonance in Monteverdi, Handel, Schubert, etc., the better one's knowledge of the original language the better it is for one. There are things one can do short of learning the original language, of course: besides scanning translations of Italian and English and German, one can usually find very good and detailed listening notes for vocal works by major composers, allowing one to get a much better sense of what's happening (deep down) in the music than one could otherwise. You may always feel you're missing out on that je ne sais quoi that the native speaker sometimes goes on about--but in such cases I prefer to believe they're faking it :lol:


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

brianvds said:


> As far as I am concerned, the words are just there as an excuse for the music, and I generally couldn't possibly care less what they mean. I think I actually prefer not to know, and I also don't mind when the words are just meaningless syllables, as some composers now and then do.


There is some truth to this. So many opera librettos are really hack jobs that make no dramatic sense at all.
I've gone to the Metropolitan Opera for years and couldn't care less about the words.
I essentially went to hear great singing-hitting the right notes with passion and conviction.
Even though I knew the appropriate key phrases, it didn't really matter.
Very few folks could make out any of the words Joan Sutherland sang.
Nobody cared.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Avey said:


> I only know one language, and that is English. So, many of the great choral works -- whether they be operas, Requiems, or lieder -- are in many ways _foreign_ to me. Of course, I enjoy the music, the things I can hear and sympathize with, but I have to read translations to get the lyrical message behind the piece.
> 
> This greatly irks me, because if I don't hear the piece consistently, I don't recall the translation. And if I hear a new piece, I can only hear the voice as another instrument. I feel like I'm always missing the complete narrative.


Another one greatly irked. Being a lover of sacred music, I used to follow the texts assiduously. I even would take scores and write in the English under the words. Buxtehude drove me nuts in his cantatas; all those repeated phrases. Oh, the writer's cramp. Plus, I'd have to bury my head in the text if I wanted to hear the piece. Oh, the neckaches.

Then there were the flawed translations. Like with Koopman's Bach Cantatas, where they tried to rhyme the English translations, which meant the word painting in the German didn't match the English.

Now I tend to hover around mass settings, because I pretty much know all the words, and I can actually enjoy the experience cramp-free.

And any more, I tend to treat the voices like another instrumental voice and try to get a general idea about what they're singing and not worry about the depths of meaning that I'm missing. You know, vida brevis and all that.


----------



## Jos (Oct 14, 2013)

Taggart said:


> I remember the story of a setting of "life is but a melancholy flower" which sounded like:
> 
> life is
> life is butter
> ...


Haha, This reminds me of an Englishteacher I had. He had this game where we had to write down the lyrics of popsongs as we heard them! The Selector was a ska-band with a songline that went, according to one of the girls in my class; "I don't need that special bra"....... Forever in my mind

Cheers,
Jos


----------



## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I am fluent in German and fairly much so in the French language, but whether English, German or French, I find singing difficult to understand. I catch phrases here and there, and after many listenings, I might experience an _ah-ha!_ moment, when I finally am able to understand something I had misunderstood previously, but I need to follow the text to understand, regardless of the language.

Whether I understand the language or not, I tend to listen to the voice as an instrument, unless I am really familiar with the work and know the texts by heart. I follow the texts during my initial critical playing when I first buy an album, but I don't follow up enough to really get to know many pieces by heart.


----------



## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I like classical music in Latin because you only have to learn about three sets of lyrics and then you know the entire repertoire.

I also like listening to music in German. In fact, it was my interest in music which inspired me to learn German in the first place. Schubert songs and Bach cantatas are both fun study aids.

Personally I hate recitative in foreign languages. Given that these sections are not musically interesting, you want them to be at least interesting from a content point of view. For that reason I found Bach Passions pretty boring when I first heard them, but now I love them because I can actually follow the story and I actuallly enjoy the evangelist parts.


----------



## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I do like to know what's going on and the gist of what they're singing about. Thank goodness for surtexts. If there are none, then I'd familiarise myself with the plot and structure of the piece before I went. If they are singing in Latin or French, my school studies are enough to give me an inkling & any help at all is welcome. Good words and good music are a marriage made in heaven. 

I was a 'words' person before I became a 'music' person: in my cot, I recited nursery rhymes & then graduated to songs.


----------



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

I generally don't know what is being said unless I'm watching an opera and there are subtitles. It doesn't bother me really at all as I just enjoy the sound of their voice and the melodies they sing. However, I do think reading the translation for lieder is a really enjoyable experience. I'd heard "Der Erlkonig" dozens of times before recently listening along with a translation and the piece really took on new meaning and feeling for me.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Dustin said:


> I generally don't know what is being said unless I'm watching an opera and there are subtitles. It doesn't bother me really at all as I just enjoy the sound of their voice and the melodies they sing. However, I do think reading the translation for lieder is a really enjoyable experience. I'd heard "Der Erlkonig" dozens of times before recently listening along with a translation and the piece really took on new meaning and feeling for me.


You have to have a translation for lieder.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> You have to have a translation for lieder.


For lieder presented with voice plus piano, that is unfortunately the case. Unfortunately because the message is often... less than great. Voice with orchestra, as is much of Mahler and R. Strauss, is much more pleasing to me - and I don't need a translation.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ukko said:


> For lieder presented with voice plus piano, that is unfortunately the case. Unfortunately because the message is often... less than great. Voice with orchestra, as is much of Mahler and R. Strauss, is much more pleasing to me - and I don't need a translation.


Schubert and Schumann lieder is very great indeed when it comes to the serious songs altho' there are plenty of lighter examples.
I don't think that either Mahler or Strauss can touch "Winterreise" for instance. The majority of Strauss' lieder is with piano accompaniment incidentally.
I'm glad that you don't need a translation,but we're not all expert German speakers.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I love Schumann lieder. For those who aren't familiar with it, you are missing a vital part of Schumann's greatness.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

hpowders said:


> I love Schumann lieder. For those who aren't familiar with it, you are missing a vital part of Schumann's greatness.


Heard it. Don't like it much.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

You can treat the words as music, but in some works it is worth knowing what is going on. For example, I love the opera Fidelio and while I often listen on CD in German (love sung German) I know what is going on because I periodically watch my favorite DVD of it (1978 Bernstein) with the English Subtitles. For Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, I was told on this site that it is easy to learn the Latin words as there are not that many words to the mass. I know select words and should work on more, but the music (including voices) is wonderful either way.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Come to think of it, those common phrases in opera "leave me alone", "Let's go", "I no longer love you", "Die!" are the same words I hear practically every day at home.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lupinix said:


> sometimes even if I know the language I can't follow the text
> even english
> as for my own language, I usually can't even recognize it
> but I rather listen to music than text anyway so I don't mind much


This is true also. I've seen Peter Grimes 3 times and it was as if they were singing in a foreign language.
Which proves they all can't be Frank Sinatra.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> Schubert and Schumann lieder is very great indeed when it comes to the serious songs altho' there are plenty of lighter examples.
> I don't think that either Mahler or Strauss can touch "Winterreise" for instance. The majority of Strauss' lieder is with piano accompaniment incidentally.
> I'm glad that you don't need a translation,but we're not all expert German speakers.


Screw the majority; the 4 last songs are with orchestra. I'm not an expert German speaker, but I can read English.


----------



## jlaw (Jan 25, 2014)

I used to think that I might have missed a lot by not understanding the language. After some efforts of getting translations for a few choral works, I discovered that the words usually are not really good poems, and the music can surely live better without them. Therefore I am fairly complacent with my ignorance and consider the words gibberish


----------



## Berlioznestpasmort (Jan 24, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Come to think of it, those common phrases in opera "leave me alone", "Let's go", "I no longer love you", "Die!" are the same words I hear practically every day at home.


Yes, but that's just what you overheard your good wife tell the bacteria and virus when she's cleaning the house - I doubt Puccini and Verdi had that task in mind.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Berlioznestpasmort said:


> Yes, but that's just what you overheard your good wife tell the bacteria and virus when she's cleaning the house - I doubt Puccini and Verdi had that task in mind.


Nope. It all came from the little Shorkie manipulator/king who rules my house!


----------



## Berlioznestpasmort (Jan 24, 2014)

hpowders said:


> Nope. It all came from the little Shorkie manipulator/king who rules my house!


So pay your taxes, stop eating his food, and make the occasional bow (or bow-wow) and he'll "leave you alone" as you orig. mentioned!

ADDED: Does he like Prokofiev as much as you?


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Dustin said:


> I'd heard "Der Erlkonig" dozens of times before recently listening along with a translation and the piece really took on new meaning and feeling for me.


Have you tried different settings of Goethe's poem? I've only recently gotten into Schubert's contemporary, Carl Loewe, a wonderful composer whose version of Erlkonig has been performed by many great singers. It's interesting to look at how differently the same words are treated by different artists.


----------



## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Blancrocher said:


> Have you tried different settings of Goethe's poem? I've only recently gotten into Schubert's contemporary, Carl Loewe, a wonderful composer whose version of Erlkonig has been performed by many great singers. It's interesting to look at how differently the same words are treated by different artists.


No, I never even thought about it but I'll give them a listen now!


----------



## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Jos said:


> Haha, This reminds me of an Englishteacher I had. He had this game where we had to write down the lyrics of popsongs as we heard them! The Selector was a ska-band with a songline that went, according to one of the girls in my class; "I don't need that special bra"....... Forever in my mind


Glad to see I am not the only one with that problem. The reason I never listen to the lyrics of songs is partly that I cannot make them out, in whatever language they are. Well, in my native language I usually manage, sort of. But with English songs, I usually cannot make head or tail of what they are singing about, despite the fact that in all other respects, my English is fairly fluent. Just goes to show that most of us will never acquire genuinely complete fluency in a second language.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Berlioznestpasmort said:


> So pay your taxes, stop eating his food, and make the occasional bow (or bow-wow) and he'll "leave you alone" as you orig. mentioned!
> 
> ADDED: Does he like Prokofiev as much as you?


He looks at me with those big beautiful browns and I'm jelly. Wish I could show him some "Prokofiev steel!"


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ukko said:


> Screw the majority; the 4 last songs are with orchestra. I'm not an expert German speaker, but I can read English.


Things are becoming rather mystifying here. 
You say "I don't need a translation" but then you say "but I can read English". That sounds very much like a translation to me.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Blancrocher said:


> Have you tried different settings of Goethe's poem? I've only recently gotten into Schubert's contemporary, Carl Loewe, a wonderful composer whose version of Erlkonig has been performed by many great singers. It's interesting to look at how differently the same words are treated by different artists.


Schubert accentuates the pounding of the father's horse. But Loewe in his ballad accentuates the rustling of the Alders. Erlkoenig (King of the Alders).


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

brotagonist said:


> I am fluent in German and fairly much so in the French language, but whether English, German or French, I find singing difficult to understand. I catch phrases here and there, and after many listenings, I might experience an _ah-ha!_ moment, when I finally am able to understand something I had misunderstood previously, but I need to follow the text to understand, regardless of the language.
> 
> Whether I understand the language or not, I tend to listen to the voice as an instrument, unless I am really familiar with the work and know the texts by heart. I follow the texts during my initial critical playing when I first buy an album, but I don't follow up enough to really get to know many pieces by heart.


After several years of listening much of Wagner's poetry has settled so firmly in my mind that I understand pretty much every word even when I don't _hear_ every word. My mind supplies the missing sounds that my ears do not perceive.


----------



## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> Things are becoming rather mystifying here.
> You say "I don't need a translation" but then you say "but I can read English". That sounds very much like a translation to me.




That's because I was referring the the statement "I don't need a translation" and _gently suggesting_ that it doesn't say "I am an expert German speaker". It can - _and does_ - mean that I don't heed the meaning the the words anyway.


----------

