# Maria Callas and Trills



## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

There's a long post from an Opera-L subscriber J. Waldman which I found absorbing and wanted to share on this forum. I reproduce it below:

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" I have found many of Steve Charitan's opera-l postings over the years very informative, particularly a recent one on why Verdi's Veil Song should not be cut from Verdi's Don Carlo, giving enlightening detail showing how it is crucial, and integral in so many other future scenes in this Verdi masterpiece. Therefore, I am surprised by two of his incorrect comments on his recent post about Trills. Since no one has addressed the error Steve Charitan stated in his posts about trills, after several days, I am responding with factual details to show why he is incorrect.

He lists singers who sang Bel canto operas, who did not have a trill, and correctly lists singers such as June Anderson, Montserrat Caballe and Renata Scotto, but also lists Marilyn Horne. The reason why Idia has not heard all of the trills in the Lucia Mad Scene which she heard on a MET broadcast with Beverly Sills (way past her peak), is that for the past 35 years almost every soprano who has sung Lucia has not had a reliable trill. The Lucia Mad Scene has more trills than any other Mad Scene, with the exception of perhaps the Anna Bolena Mad Scene. Finally, there are 2 Lyric Coloratura Sopranos who sing Lucia, who have excellent dependable trills: Brenda Rae and Lisette Oropesa.

Listing Marilyn Horne in the group who cannot trill though is incorrect. As Joyce DiDonato, one of the few current leading exponents of the Bel canto operatic literature, with an excellent trill, has explained after talking with Marilyn Horne, like Marilyn, she worked intensively to develop an excellent, dependable trill in every register of her voice. One can hear Marilyn Horne sing superb trills in many of her signature parts, in Rossini Opera Serias, such as Neocle in Siege of Corinth, Arsace in Semiramide and Malcolm in La Donna del Lago, (Here is her brilliant rendition of "Mura felice" from 1981 with excellent trills: 



) and trills together beautifully with Joan Sutherland in the duets in Semiramide (Sutherland's favorite partner because she could sing all of the ornaments, including the trill). The only deficient skill in singing trills which Marilyn Horne shares with Joan Sutherland, is that all trills are paced and sung exactly the same. The other major flaw to Joan Sutherland's command of trills is that she has great difficultly executing a trill of length, and has to restart the long trill. I have heard Sutherland do this several times in live performance and on studio recordings. Of course, a singer is not a machine, and cannot execute perfect trills every time they sing, so even the most respected masters of trills can have a performance when a trill might not be up to their usual high standard. I have heard this even with Joan Sutherland in Lucia, Traviata, and works of Gounod.

The most major error in Mr. Charitan's Trill post is stating that "Even Callas, despite her incomparable virtues, could not produce a consistently workable trill. Many times, when the music almost begged for it, she ducked the challenge." As I will explain in detail with examples this is completely incorrect.

1) Maria Callas was an exemplary, scrupulous musician, who served the composers she sang, and sang the embellishments written in the score, only adding embellishments when singing the second verse of cabalettas, feeling rightly, that otherwise adding trills and other embellishments to show off would be self-indulgent.

2) Maria Callas had a superb trill in every register of her voice and never ducked trills in the score. She studied with Elvira de Hidalgo, a direct link to the Manuel Garcia Bel canto tradition. Manuel Garcia was the Father of Pauline Viardot and Maria Maliabran, two of the most pre-eminent Bel canto singers of the 19th Century, and one of the most admired Vocal Pedagogues in Bel canto ornamentation.

3) As Walter Legge, EMI Producer, explained with De Hidalgo in interviews, Maria Callas could sing the most florid, difficult music written for soprano with ostentatious ease, which included the complete mastery of trills.

4) Walter Legge was astonished that Maria Callas could sing long, limpid trills in every register of her voice, instantly change the pacing of the trill, and sing very long, limpid trills, with myriad shading and colors, but most astonishing and unique, Maria Callas could also sing any trill on any dynamic level. A) This complete mastery of Trills which Maria Callas executed, included exquisite soft trills, thrilling forte trills, and singing long held Trills with diminuendos, crescendos and most astonishing of all, a messa di voce (combining crescendo and diminuendo by increasing volume and then decreasing volume).

5) Tullio Serafin, one of the most esteemed Conductors of Bel canto operas, stated that for the first time in decades, one was hearing every ornament in the score, especially trills, sung by a singer, which had been omitted for decades.

6) Conductor, Nicola Rescigno, an esteemed Conductor of Bel canto operas, noted in a rehearsal for the 1957 Dallas Opera Opening Concert, and the 1958 EMI Mad Scenes recording, Callas stayed behind and assisted the orchestra musicians in explaining and demonstrating how to leave and approach a trill, pace the trill differently depending on the composer, and engaged in a detailed discussion of ornamentation. A) Nicola Rescigno was astonished that he was working with an extraordinary colleague, and an exemplary Musician/Singer.

7) One can hear Maria Callas talk about trills in interviews, and in her Juilliard Master Classes, explaining that composers wrote trills in the opera scores to express the myriad emotions that the character is feeling. Maria Callas not only sang all of the trills in each score, which since a singer is a musician should sing, but in each trill expressed the emotion her character was feeling. Her trills expressed joy, happiness, elation, ecstasy, anger, sadness, power, and fear, amongst many other emotions she could express. This is why her singing voice has been described as a "mirror held up to emotion".

8) I have never heard any other singer, certainly in the Twentieth century, have this complete mastery of trills, which Maria Callas has, one who can vary the pacing and dynamic of a trill, executing a crescendo, diminuendo or a messa di voce on a trill.

9) The five singers of the Bel canto revival who have excellent trills are Maria Callas, Beverly Sills, Joan Sutherland, Shirley Verrett (her astonishing Arsace), and Marilyn Horne, but only Maria Callas can change the pacing and dynamic on any trill, and as with all ornaments, each ornament is a means of expression, not a way to show off.

10) Maria Callas stated correctly that a singer is a musician and one would never expect a pianist or violinist to omit embellishments, such as trills. The composer put the trills there to express the character's emotions, whether it is love, joy, anger, sadness or resignation. Therefore, you should sing the ornaments expressing the emotion of the character.

11) Unlike almost all singers, Maria Callas sings each ornament within the line of music, not interrupting with breaths or pauses. Her trills are integrated perfectly into the line of music she is singing.

12) Almost nothing can create the frisson of a beautifully executed trill, and when you sing multiple trills written in scales, and Maria Callas does this many times, such as in "Al dolce guidami" and "Coppia Iniqua" in Anna Bolena, exquisite trills in downward scales in "Son geloso" and upward scales in "Ah non Giunge" in La Sonnambula and the cabaletta, "Salgo gia del trono" in Verdi's Nabucco, and the end of the duet, "In mia man" in Norma.

13) One can hear this in instrumental pieces such as Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5, Beethoven's Piano Sonata #32, O. 111, Brahms Piano Concerto #2, and it can be absolutely spellbinding, suspend time, and be truly eloquent. Two of the most sublime piano concertos, masterpieces of the piano literature, are the Beethoven Piano Concerto #5 and Brahms Piano Concerto #2, both which utilize upward scales of trills in the adagio movements, which when played superbly can be hypnotizing. The great Hungarian pianist, a sublime and profound musician, Annie Fischer, plays each trill softer, and the final trill of the upward scale of trills is the softest, in the Beethoven Piano Concerto #5, which is breathtaking.

14) The following are several examples which illustrate what I have explained above describing Maria Callas and her complete mastery of the Art of Trills, with the mastery of changing the dynamic on any trill, which I have never heard surpassed.

a) Verdi Ernani: Ernani involami Cabaletta, 1958: Trill on f on "ah vola' with astonishing bounding staccatti. 




b) Verdi Il Trovatore: D'amor sull'alli roseé, 1953 La Scala: Long limpid trills, including the final long trill on E on pene, and the final E note, has a trill with an astonishing messa di voce. Luchino Visconti was sitting next to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, who was weeping, because she said she had just witnessed operatic perfection and a vocal miracle. See: 




c) Verdi Vespri: Merce dilette amiche, 1954: Stunning diminuendo twice on a long trill on E.





d) Thomas Hamlet: Ophelia Mad Scene: Ah vos jeux: Beautiful, limpid piano trill on high A, followed by exquisite downward scale all in one breath. See: Live Italian 1956: 




See Studio 1958 Mad Scenes in French: 




e) Verdi Rigoletto: Caro Nome: Final rapturous, long mezza voce, limpid trill on E, (Gualtier Malde) after many trills superbly executed expressing Gilda's joy. See 1955 EMI: 




f) Bellini La Sonnambula: Come per me sereno: Rapturous diminuendo on trill on E on non brillo, perfectly expressing Amina's joy. See Cologne 1957: 




g) Boito Mefistofele: L'altre notte in fondo al mare: In both cadenzas of this short Mad Scene, on an E, the first trill sung with diminuendo to express inner torment and second trill with crescendo, to express her utter despair, fear and anguish, have a devastating cumulative impact.

h) Donizetti Lucia, Lucia Mad Scene, 1953 EMI, right before end of first half of Mad Scene, one of the most exquisite, soft, long, limpid trills on high B flat before a superb high E Flat. See 1953 Studio: 



 Note exquisite, long High B flat pianissimo Trill between 12-13 minutes. See 1954 La Scala: 




i) Delibes Lakme: Exquisite long trills in Bell Song including long piano trill on high B before High E.

j) Meyerbeer Dinorah Mad Scene, 1954 Live and Studio: Numerous long, limpid trills applied with chiaroscuro. Singing of astonishing command of all bel canto ornamentation and miraculous echo effects. See Live 1954: 




Another final superb example of the mastery of trills by Maria Callas is in one of her greatest roles, Violetta. A perfect example of the dodging of trills Charitan notes in the score, is by 99% of sopranos who sing Violetta, including 2 American sopranos with excellent trills, Rosa Ponselle and Renee Fleming, is in the extremely difficult cabaletta, "Sempre libera" in Verdi's La Traviata. This is a cabaletta that is extremely difficult to sing faithful to Verdi's score, due to the very rapid tempo, combined with every kind of ornamentation in the score.

With Maria Callas, all of the rapid trills in "Sempre libera" are superbly executed, alongside dazzling scales, staccatos, and arpeggios, which is markedly different than the lifeless trills she sings in the last act portraying her fatal illness. Tito Gobbi stated that the most brilliant, dazzling renditions of "Sempre libera" he heard in his entire lifetime, were by Maria Callas, where every ornament was articulated with brilliance and ostentatious ease. Due to the extreme difficulty of "Sempre libera", one can count on one hand the number of great singers renowned for Violetta since 1940, who sing all of the trills in "Sempre libera", and over 35 singers who skipped all or most of the trills, and the one singer who claims to have sung Violetta the most, Virginia Zeani, skips all of the trills! Even in 1958, in one of her final performances as Violetta, a masterful Traviata at Covent Garden, paired with two other superb singers, Cesare Valletti and Mario Zanasi, under the insightful baton of Nicola Rescigno, when Callas is in problematic voice, with a thin high E flat and strained High C's, each trill is perfectly executed, alongside an elegantly sung downward chromatic scale from a bell like High D Flat, to express Violetta's abandon. Here is Callas in Mexico in 1952 in one of her most thrilling renditions of "Sempre libera" with every one of those impossibly fast trills in place: url: 




These are just a dozen examples of the complete mastery of Trills which Maria Callas excelled in, which I have never heard surpassed. Maria Callas never indulged in self-indulgent over ornamentation, as did earlier sopranos before her, such as Luisa Tetrazzini and Selma Kurz, or after her, such as Joan Sutherland and Beverly Sills, and all ornamentation was a means of expression wedded with sublime musicianship.

John Copley stated in an interview in a MET Preview in 11/2001, that what he remembers most from his special friendship with Maria Callas, was her astute understanding of the Bel Canto Style, and how each cadenza and ornament written in the score was part of a complete dramatic expression of what the character is feeling. Copley stated that this made Maria Callas truly unique, and indefinably great; no matter what ornamentation Callas sang in all of her dramatic coloratura roles, she was singing each ornament to express the innermost feelings of the character. In summation, the mastery of the Art of the Trill by Maria Callas was all the more hypnotizing, in that each trill was a means of expression, not just to dazzle, which she does with her exemplary musicianship, and miraculous command of dynamics and shading of each trill. No wonder one of the Conducting Giants of the 20th Century, Victor DeSabata, said Maria Callas's musicianship was so extraordinary that she sang like a whole orchestra!

Warm Regards to Opera Lovers,

Jerry Waldman"


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I also read it and told him how much I enjoyed his post. It was a learning experience for me as I have been following their thread on trills -- born with it or acquired from learning?
Some said one could not be born with a trill to which I vehemently disagree because I was born with one -- and a decent one at that, which made the post even that much more interesting to me.
Whether or not I could have sustained it in an opera milieu is another story. I am sure I would have had to get some training on strength of my vocal cords, etc.
But a trill can be taught. It is not easy and that is the reason there are so few good ones today.
Marilyn Horne is a perfect example of a person who really struggled to acquire one -- different from Joan Sutherland who was born with hers.
Others of recent past who have had a decent trill were Sills, Fleming, Callas, Ponselle, Swenson, Oropesa -- I even heard a good one from Furlanetto last week in a Met Don Carlo. There are others. It is not an easy thing to do and is a very interesting topic, so I too thank Jerry for his very informative post.
(Never too old to learn)


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I also read it and told him how much I enjoyed his post. It was a learning experience for me as I have been following their thread on trills -- born with it or acquired from learning?
> Some said one could not be born with a trill to which I vehemently disagree because I was born with one -- and a decent one at that, which made the post even that much more interesting to me.
> Whether or not I could have sustained it in an opera milieu is another story. I am sure I would have had to get some training on strength of my vocal cords, etc.
> But a trill can be taught. It is not easy and that is the reason there are so few good ones today.
> ...


You and I had a short discussion about this on another thread, I believe, and it's one of the reasons Mr. Waldman's post was so interesting to me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Thanks for posting this, Mas. I sometimes get tired of people saying Callas had a faulty technique. Maybe only a musician, or someone who at least is able to read music, can understand just how good her technique was. Technique is not just about firm, pretty top notes. It's also about being able to correctly execute all the composer's notes and markings, just as instrumentalists do.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Thanks for posting this, Mas. I sometimes get tired of people saying Callas had a faulty technique. Maybe only a musician, or someone who at least is able to read music, can understand just how good her technique was. Technique is not just about firm, pretty top notes. It's also about being able to correctly execute all the composer's notes and markings, just as instrumentalists do.


My pleasure - I thought it was important.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm reviving this thread which has many lurkers but very few comments. Apparently *trills* are not important to many opera lovers. Indeed even some singers who sing or sang in _bel canto_ óperas forgo the trills altogether.

In discussions on another thread about Turkish soprano Leyla Gencer, there was a discussion about her voice and schooling. A comparison was initiated about Gencer and Sondra Radvanovsky and videos posted of both singers singing the _cabaletta _ from *Anna Bolena*'s last Act aria _Coppia Iníqua_. It has a series of rising trills, sung with urgency, and both singers are defeated by it, Radvanovsky most audibly, having to cope with some frenetic movements by the stage director, but Gencer disguises her eschewed trills more cunningly (it's audio-only).

The question and challenge is this: do you notice trills, and do you have an example of a singer who dodges the trills in any opera aria you know?

For instance, I noticed on a recording of *La Traviata* soprano Virginia Zeani leaves off all the trills in _Sempre Libera_.

There should have been one on the word _deggio_ and the following _folleggiare_, and the following phrase _viver _and _mio_, etc.

Let it be said that I'm not demonizing these singers, some of whom don't have a trill in their vocal 
arsenal or leave them off for some reason.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Callas, Sutherland, Tetrazinni, Ponselle were the queens of trills for me. Caballe never had a good one.Callas was so perfect, even later on. She was impeccable with her coloratura to the degree she could reveal emotions in the midst of all that technical mastery.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Callas, Sutherland, Tetrazinni, Ponselle were the queens of trills for me. Caballe never had a good one.Callas was so perfect, even later on. She was impeccable with her coloratura to the degree she could reveal emotions in the midst of all that technical mastery.


Beverly Sills, though not a favorite of mine, had command of all you could want to sing, trills included. But unfortunately her voice wasn't weighty enough to do what she wanted but she went ahead anyway. The tone was shallow and you feared she would break. She had a "flutter" to her voice that wasn't unpleasant, but it became very pronounced later in her career, especially after the Donizetti Queens, when she pushed her voice beyond its limits (and beyond). But she could *trill* !






Trills at around 4:54


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Beverly Sills, though not a favorite of mine, had command of all you could want to sing, trills included. But unfortunately her voice wasn't weighty enough to do what she wanted but she went ahead anyway. The tone was shallow and you feared she would break. She had a "flutter" to her voice that wasn't unpleasant, but it became very pronounced later in her career, especially after the Donizetti Queens, when she pushed her voice beyond its limits (and beyond). But she could *trill* !
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sometimes I LOVED her trills and sometimes I didn't. She wasn't consistent. I enjoy some of her singing a whole lot but on the whole I prefer Sutherland and Callas. I loved her personality. I saw her up close and spoke with her and she was a very striking woman in person.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I'm with Callas, who once said, "A trill is a necessity this is the equipment that goes with our instrument. In these operas that we preform abbellimenti must be dealt with physically and technically. One must have these to serve the music and be an honest musician."

We wouldn't forgive an instrumentalist for not being able to play the notes the composer wrote so why do we forgive singers? There are even trills in later Verdi, which we rarely hear because most singers don't have the technique. Take *Un Ballo in Maschera*. In the quintet at the end of Act V scene i, Oscar leads with a tune that includes many trills. Amelia follows with a variant of the same tune. The trills are still there, but how often do we actually hear them? However if you listen to either of Callas's recordings, it is actually the soubrette Eugenia Ratti who has ill defined trills and it is left to the larger voice of Callas to demonstrate how they should be done.

Another Verdi role which is often imprecisely sung is that of the *Trovatore* Leonora, Callas's singing of which back in the early 1950s was a revelation, critics opining that it was as if an old master had been lovingly restored and brought back to life. There is an awful lot more florid music in the role than we usually hear. The miracle of Callas was not just that she correctly executed the trills and fioriture, but that she made musical sense of them. They are not just trills but means of expression. Indeed Grace Bumbry once said that if you wrote down what Callas sang, you would exactly reproduce what the composer wrote, not just the notes but the expression marks and phrasing too.

It sometimes annoys me then that people will say Radvanovsky, for instance, is as great a Norma as Callas. From what I've seen and heard (on youtube), I would agree that she is an appreciable Norma and probably the best we have today. But I would also have to say her coloratura is nowhere near so accurate as that of Ponselle, Callas or Sutherland, let alone Caballé.

I know I'm in a minority and most people don't even notice. As long as the singer makes a nice sound and sings beautiful top notes then it doesn't matter to them if they simplify the score to suit their lack of technical skill.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

MAS said:


> Beverly Sills, though not a favorite of mine, had command of all you could want to sing, trills included. But unfortunately her voice wasn't weighty enough to do what she wanted but she went ahead anyway. The tone was shallow and you feared she would break. She had a "flutter" to her voice that wasn't unpleasant, but it became very pronounced later in her career, especially after the Donizetti Queens, when she pushed her voice beyond its limits (and beyond). But she could *trill*


The great bel canto singers like Maria have technical command of vocal ornaments and use them with great artistic effect and make them seem natural and effortless, as you say many famous singers cannot even come close to this level and omit them or struggle through them, and often singers who can do them are in the "canary" category with light silvery tones

There are even more fundamental reasons why we love La Callas in these roles like Anna Bolena, because of her extended vocal range with dark lower voice she can put venom (official opera term) in those words like a tigress unleashed and fully express her fury and "vendetta" towards the wicked couple.....Sills sounds like an upset little girl by comparison and looses all the impact needed

Also unique to Callas is her vocal power and amplitude all the way up the scale to her high note, almost all singers like Sills the voice narrows and becomes smaller and sharper to reach the high note, Maria is like a volcano and just devastating full force high notes, imagine being at La Scala and hearing that force unleashed live


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I recently was gobsmacked by Ruth Ann Swenson's spectacular trills as Gilda in a Met online _Rigoletto_. She really pulled out all the stops.

This Jerry Waldman should write a book on the differences in voices -- good and bad. He's very talented and knowledgeable.
He recently excoriated me (in a fair way) when I mentioned that I had enjoyed a performance of Netrebko's Lucia. He tore it and me apart. Actually, in reading his criticisms I found myself nodding in agreement with some of his disapprovals of her lack of proper bel canto technique.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I recently was gobsmacked by Ruth Ann Swenson's spectacular trills as Gilda in a Met online _Rigoletto_. She really pulled out all the stops.
> 
> This Jerry Waldman should write a book on the differences in voices -- good and bad. He's very talented and knowledgeable.
> He recently excoriated me (in a fair way) when I mentioned that I had enjoyed a performance of Netrebko's Lucia. He tore it and me apart. Actually, in reading his criticisms I found myself nodding in agreement with some of his disapprovals of her lack of proper bel canto technique.


Ruth Ann is underrated. She has a lot of warmth and richness for a lyric coloratura.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

The original post is well written, and I enjoyed the use of specific examples to make the case (though I can't agree with all of the judgments). I am not a Callas devotee, but I can often appreciate a lot about her singing. I particularly enjoyed the Merce dilette amiche, which was wonderfully sung. The trills were excellent, as advertised.

What I didn't like about the post and subsequent discussion was a tendency towards Callas Supremacy. This is the idea that I have a problem with, not an admiration for Callas' many gifts. The assumptions that go into this view are, as far as I can tell: that the ability to produce a proper tone is not as important a part of technique as florid ability and ornamentation, and that proper tone and and expression are different things.

I can't agree. I think the comparison to an instrumentalist is apt: yes, the instrumentalist should be able to do all the runs and ornamentations, but the instrumentalist also needs to make the correct sound. Would we forgive a violinist who made screechy sounds above a C and who could often produced an overly wide vibrato at certain pitches, sometimes to the point of sounding off pitch? Well, we might if they had certain compensating gifts, like a high level of musicality, etc.. What I don't like is the idea that florid ability is a necessary part of technique being used as an argument for why Callas is uniquely great, but Callas' problems with tonal production and vibrato being hand waved away, or even, as sometimes happens, used as an argument in her favor, since they gave her a "unique and expressive sound." Either we think technique is important, or we don't.

I personally happen to think that tonal quality _is_ expressive, just like some people are moved by the sound of, say, a cello played well regardless of the music. I don't think that should be discounted. But beyond that, I think that being faithful to a composer's score does _not_ mean reproducing the notes such that you could recreate the score exactly from writing down what was sung. I think it means creating, as an artist in one's own right, the _effects_ that the composer created in the score (which may or not be equal to the composer's specific conscious intentions). That might mean disobeying the marking to obey the spirit of the score. It doesn't mean being sloppy or incapable of accuracy, but it does mean that you have to interpret music and not just reproduce it strictly. To be clear, I actually don't think Callas does that in the recordings of hers that I like. I just don't think it should be used as a point in a singer's defense.

I think that's important because it means that singing all the notes and dynamic markings with an awful tone does not constitute musicianship, especially not in opera, which is different from instrumental music in that music is being used to express specific dramatic and psychological content, not only tonal relationships. The actual tonal quality matters, because whether the tonal quality is soft and clear or big and dark, or some other quality on the spectrum is the basic means of expression in opera singing, and it's what great composers wrote for. The voice is indeed an instrument, and like other instruments, it is actually meant to have a certain kind of sound which the composer took into account when writing the music, and which is essential for accurately "playing" the music and opening up its expressive possibilities. That means that when Callas produces a wrong top note with a wide vibrato and shrill edge, she is actually _not singing what the composer wrote_ just as much as if she had left out a trill, ornamentation, or even sung the wrong note entirely.

So it's not taking a cheap shot at Callas to point out her vibrato issues, just as it isn't a cheap shot at Tebaldi to point out her florid ability was sub-par. Both are flaws. Which one one thinks is more important will be a matter of individual taste. I just think we shouldn't excuse Callas' technical faults while not excusing other singers' faults.

Finally, just as a matter of historical accuracy, I can't agree with the contention that Callas' ability to do dynamics on a trill is unique.
Kurz crescendos during trills multiple times in this recording:





Dalmores diminuendos out of this trill in Ah si ben mio:





Sigrid Onegin does an absolutely insane crescendo on a long, long trill at the end of this aria:





Crescendo on a trill from Leon Escalais:





And trills in every register:





These singers not only had perfect trills that they could use with dynamics, but also had perfect, even tone and proper, steady vibrato in every register and were quite expressive. They combined beautiful tonal production with expression, or rather used their perfect tonal production to be expressive, which is the bel canto ideal. In her best recordings, like that Merce dilette amiche, Callas belongs in their company.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Didn't Callas's technical difciences arise from a lack of breath support caused by her important weight loss in 1954 instead of, as you seem to imply in your post, an improper technique? I believe that she did not lose her technique, but lost her voice, and that the vibrato issues were often out of her control. She tried to resolve them so many times by asking Schwarzkopf and De Hidalgo but could not because she had lost so much strength in her breathing muscles (one loses a great deal of muscles when losing weight as suddenly as she did). If you listen to recordings of Callas before 1954, her vibrato is under control and all the voice is properly supported. She was then singing everything that the composer wrote. I mean, listen to her Armida, to her 1952 Tosca in Mexico, to her Il Trovatore and Medea in 1953 at la Scala. She then possessed an instrument which could do anything and I think it is the reason why she is often presented as being supreme. She was the last soprano able to compete with the singers you have presented above, and is closer to us than them.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It sometimes annoys me then that people will say Radvanovsky, for instance, is as great a Norma as Callas. From what I've seen and heard (on youtube), I would agree that she is an appreciable Norma and probably the best we have today. But I would also have to say her coloratura is nowhere near so accurate as that of Ponselle, Callas or Sutherland, let alone Caballé.


I've never though Caballe was a paragon of accuracy in coloratura.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

> Didn't Callas's technical difciences arise from a lack of breath support caused by her important weight loss in 1954 instead of, as you seem to imply in your post, an improper technique? I believe that she did not lose her technique, but lost her voice, and that the vibrato issues were often out of her control. She tried to resolve them so many times by asking Schwarzkopf and De Hidalgo but could not because she had lost so much strength in her breathing muscles (one loses a great deal of muscles when losing weight as suddenly as she did). If you listen to recordings of Callas before 1954, her vibrato is under control and all the voice is properly supported.


Even in earlier Callas recordings you can hear a widening of the vibrato as she goes up the scale. It's less apparent, but it's there.
Take Vissi d'arte from the famous De Sabata _Tosca_ of 1953. For all its commendable qualities, the high note on "signore" has too wide of a vibrato so that it sounds sharp to me, as do the following notes though less so.




Or take the high c on "quel lama gli piantai nel cor" in Act III. How bothersome this is depends both on personal taste (vibrato problems really hamper my enjoyment of singing), and also on the composition. Tosca has a lot of consistently high writing which makes it hard for me to appreciate her performance. Other roles that hang out in the middle and lower register more I enjoy her much more in. What I don't like is when, say, Anthony Tommasini points out these issues as _characterization_, as though the fact that she sounds like she's having difficulty with the singing equals artistic expression because it's a difficult moment for Tosca or whatever. That's just not true and it misses Callas' real art, which lies in her use of shading between the strong middle head voice and dark chest voice, as well as her accomplishment with runs, ornaments etc..

I honestly don't know whether such a weight loss could cause that specific issue. I've heard it suggested before, but I don't know. I do know that Cornelius Reid says that a wobble is often a problem of registration, and can be corrected with adjustments to the registration. (He says that a wobble is generally associated with tonal problems in the upper middle and high notes, which tracks with Callas. Apparently the wobble is closer to vocal health than the caprino, as it is a free but overburdened sound, which, again, tracks with Callas. She was certainly much, much better off technically than, say, Bellincioni or Mazzoleni or early Cigna.). I'm sure she did try very hard to resolve the problem and I wish she had been able to find somebody who could help her do it. She obviously had a very strong technique in many areas, since she was capable of very impressive agility, which doesn't come without technical accomplishment in tonal production (again supporting Reid's claim that wobble can still be a released sound).


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> Didn't Callas's technical difciences arise from a lack of breath support caused by her important weight loss in 1954 instead of, as you seem to imply in your post, an improper technique? I believe that she did not lose her technique, but lost her voice, and that the vibrato issues were often out of her control. She tried to resolve them so many times by asking Schwarzkopf and De Hidalgo but could not because she had lost so much strength in her breathing muscles (one loses a great deal of muscles when losing weight as suddenly as she did). If you listen to recordings of Callas before 1954, her vibrato is under control and all the voice is properly supported. She was then singing everything that the composer wrote. I mean, listen to her Armida, to her 1952 Tosca in Mexico, to her Il Trovatore and Medea in 1953 at la Scala. She then possessed an instrument which could do anything and I think it is the reason why she is often presented as being supreme. She was the last soprano able to compete with the singers you have presented above, and is closer to us than them.


I have overcome my prejudices and realized that Callas voice did not get immediately bad after the weight loss either. As late as 55 she was doing amazing singing, even if the upper extension was not all that it was before she lost weight. Her declining vocal gifts were a gradual thing for some odd reason. Maybe force of will. The odd thing with Dame Joan is that although the voice got bigger after 40, her vocal dexterity did not seem to suffer. Sutherland's voice got bigger while Callas' got smaller as they both aged.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> I've never though Caballe was a paragon of accuracy in coloratura.


Nor I. She could be a bit hit and miss. She could trill but she wasn't consistent and her coloratura could be lighty aspirated, but, at her peak, she could at least get round the notes.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> Didn't Callas's technical difciences arise from a lack of breath support caused by her important weight loss in 1954 instead of, as you seem to imply in your post, an improper technique? I believe that she did not lose her technique, but lost her voice, and that the vibrato issues were often out of her control.


That's one theory, but there are others too, including early onset of the menopause. A lack of stamina due to the rigorous diet she subjected herself too could also have taken its toll. After all, we knew far less about nutrition in those days.

I agree thought that she didn't lose her technique. Even in those late Verdi recordings, her legato is still well nigh perfect and she can sing a smooth downward chromatic scale, as she does in Elena's _Arrigo! Ah parli a un core_, wuth every note cleanly articulated. Arroyo, on the complete Levine recording, just slithers down the scale.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> That's one theory, but there are others too, including early onset of the menopause. A lack of stamina due to the rigorous diet she subjected herself too could also have taken its toll. After all, we knew far less about nutrition in those days.
> 
> I agree thought that she didn't lose her technique. Even in those late Verdi recordings, her legato is still well nigh perfect and she can sing a smooth downward chromatic scale, as she does in Elena's _Arrigo! Ah parli a un core_, wuth every note cleanly articulated. Arroyo, on the complete Levine recording, just slithers down the scale.


I read that Callas ate mostly meat and vegetables (almost like the Keto diet today) and would pick things from others' plates. If she had early menopause (no reason to doubt Meneghini's account), that could account for some changes in the voice as her body's chemistry (?) changed. Soprano Carol Nebblet opined: "a woman sings with her ovaries." There certainly was a change in the voice in 1954. You can tell by the recordings of that year, studio and live.

A parallel exists in the changes to Deborah Voigt's voice after the surgery. The voice's heft became slimmer, the luscious sound turned slender and metallic. What used to be creamy in tone, became acidulous. She did not sound "glorious," as Renee Fleming told a magazine, citing Voigt's voice after the surgery vis à vis Callas' weight loss (meaning Fleming did not believe Callas's voice was unduly affected after the weight loss)

There was also a loss in volume in Voigt's voice. Listening to The Ring Cycle's Brünhildes after the surgery, one notes that Voigt is no longer able to easily negotiate some of the phrases on both ends of her compass. Top notes are more difficult to emit, and the bottom of the voice is less sonorous, as if the resonance has shifted. Voigt herself has said that she now _has to remember to breathe_ and engage certain muscles that before the surgery were automatic *because she learned to sing with the fat body* and the weight helped to support her breath.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

> I have never heard any other singer, certainly in the Twentieth century, have this complete mastery of trills, which Maria Callas has, one who can vary the pacing and dynamic of a trill, executing a crescendo, diminuendo or a messa di voce on a trill.


Okay, I know I've already addressed this, and at this point maybe I'm the only one who cares, but I have to insist that Waldman is flat-out, demonstrably, annoyingly wrong in saying that Callas was the only who could do dynamics on trills, and that in particular Selma Kurz only used her trills for fireworks instead of expression. That's just not true at all. I have no problem with saying that Callas was a very expressive singer who used trills for interpretation; she was, and she did. But Waldman smears Kurz to try and make Callas unique, and that's just not fair.

On the technical side, you can hear Kurz doing all the things that he says only Callas could do:




At 2:20 we have three stunning successive trills beginning forte, on the last of which she does a flawless diminuendo. At 3:05, another long, high trill sung piano. Apparently this record doesn't exist?





Here at 2:19 we have a 16 second trill, which Kurz manipulates in volume and pitch to create an odd pulsation, which is, appropriately enough, hypnotizing.

Is all that mere showmanship? I don't think so, especially the Lockruf example. But here's an example of Kurz singing an aria that one wouldn't expect, Tu che le vanita from _Don Carlo_. She adds in a trill on the last phrase, the text being

_If you still cry in heaven, cry over my suffering,
And with your own, bear my tears to the Lord._





The trill begins pianissimo at 3:43, and Kurz seamlessly crescendos to a mezzo-forte or forte. This trill is highly expressive and dramatically effective. Perhaps her voice is shaking from emotion, or she's beginning to weep, as referred to in the text. I don't know what more proof one could need that Kurz can "change the pacing and dynamic on any trill, and as... a means of expression, not a way to show off."

It really frustrates me when people say these singers weren't vocal actors. Many records, especially early on, were done for commercial reasons, and in that context it was perfectly appropriate to show off. At the beginning, records were curiosities; after Caruso, they were lucrative commercial products. Some were made for artistic purposes. If you listen with a knowledge of vocal traditions and an ear for the way those traditions expressed emotion and drama, you can hear that singers like Kurz and Tetrazzini were capable of creating both fun, impressive recordings, and serious works of art.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> I recently was gobsmacked by Ruth Ann Swenson's spectacular trills as Gilda in a Met online _Rigoletto_. She really pulled out all the stops.
> 
> This Jerry Waldman should write a book on the differences in voices -- good and bad. He's very talented and knowledgeable.
> He recently excoriated me (in a fair way) when I mentioned that I had enjoyed a performance of Netrebko's Lucia. He tore it and me apart. Actually, in reading his criticisms I found myself nodding in agreement with some of his disapprovals of her lack of proper bel canto technique.


I am very much warming to this Jerry Waldman, sounds like a man after my own heart.

Yours, another bel canto fan who can't enjoy Netrebko in so called lyric coloratura parts!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

What a fascinating thread!

Quite a lot has been covered here and different posters have brought up a number of different topics, what is technique? Are some elements of technique more important than others and what was the reason for the changes in Callas' voice?

I find the topic of whether singers are born with a trill or not and whether it can be taught fascinating (I am somewhere between the two, I have an undeveloped trill and need to work on it at some point, but being a dramatic baritone it's never been a priority). It's good to have it confirmed that like all other aspects of technique, it's something that can be trained and developed.

I also found the Ernani aria by Callas in the first post of interest because a couple of years ago I listened to a few of my favourite recordings of that aria with the intention of discovering who was truly the best soprano in it. This came about because a person I met at a social event said that the best recording of the aria was one by Anna Tomowa-Sintow on YouTube. I looked it up and it was described as 'the loveliest Ernani' and I can confirm that it was. Lovely. Beautiful, even singing, obviously technically assured that demonstrated that the singer had a good, solid technique in the basics of singing. However, there was zero characterisation and despite it being musical, it wasn't in any way dramatic. (I believe she left out some of the ornamentation as well.) No cigar. I then turned to Rosa Ponselle's famous recording, which I sometimes refer to as 'the greatest B side ever made' (her superb Pace, pace mio Dio was on the other). Ponselle's version was technically perfect and she certainly knew what she was singing about, although there isn't a great deal of tonal colouring in that recording.

I then turned to Price and the voice was arguably even more beautiful than Ponselle's, but much of the ornamentation was sloppy and there wasn't much more dramatic input compared to Ponselle. I left Callas until last and despite my being very familiar with her recording it felt like a revelation. Here was Elvira (and remember that Callas was in some ways at a disadvantage as both Price and Ponselle sang the complete role on stage). Callas' technique wasn't as good as Ponselle's and there are certainly plenty of places where the registers don't co-ordinate properly resulting in that uncomfortable wobble. However, her ability to sing the aria as written means that I find her version less jarring than Price's (as Vivalagentenuova has stated, this depends on personal taste). Furthermore, interpretation and expression are more important to me than technique and so whilst I acknowledge that Ponselle's is the best recording as far as the latter is concerned, my favourite is the Callas as when I listen to her version I am so absorbed by Elvira's emotions that I don't concentrate on the frayed quality of much of the vocal writing that lies too high for Callas at that stage of her career.



vivalagentenuova said:


> Even in earlier Callas recordings you can hear a widening of the vibrato as she goes up the scale. It's less apparent, but it's there.
> Take Vissi d'arte from the famous De Sabata _Tosca_ of 1953. For all its commendable qualities, the high note on "signore" has too wide of a vibrato so that it sounds sharp to me, as do the following notes though less so.
> 
> Or take the high c on "quel lama gli piantai nel cor" in Act III. How bothersome this is depends both on personal taste (vibrato problems really hamper my enjoyment of singing), and also on the composition. Tosca has a lot of consistently high writing which makes it hard for me to appreciate her performance. Other roles that hang out in the middle and lower register more I enjoy her much more in. What I don't like is when, say, Anthony Tommasini points out these issues as _characterization_, as though the fact that she sounds like she's having difficulty with the singing equals artistic expression because it's a difficult moment for Tosca or whatever. That's just not true and it misses Callas' real art, which lies in her use of shading between the strong middle head voice and dark chest voice, as well as her accomplishment with runs, ornaments etc..
> ...


Yes! Good spot about that high wobble in Vissi d'arte. Interestingly I do not hear that technical flaw as a wobble, but rather as the two registers slipping out of alignment with each other (which is the exact _functional_ cause of the wobble according to Reid). I believe in a functional approach to technique like Reid whereby rather than trying to correct the symptoms of technical flaws, I think it better to look at the causes. This lack of co-ordination between the registers is somewhat akin to a train coming off the tracks or a door flying off its hinges. The sound quality/vocal production slips out of its placement and produces those uncomfortable sounds. I agree with you, why should one aspect of technique be considered more important than another and whilst Callas did sometimes use her defects for expressive ends, that wasn't always the case (I don't hear that in this Tosca example).

I am fortunate in that I have listened to Callas so much I automatically filter out the notes that are subject to this, but can adjust my listening very easily to spot them if I wish. My own theory is that she was really a true mezzo (not a contraltoish mezzo like Simionato or Barbieri) and wore out her voice by extending it too far upwards when it came to her stage repertoire.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I then turned to Rosa Ponselle's famous recording, which I sometimes refer to as 'the greatest B side ever made' (her superb Pace, pace mio Dio was on the other). Ponselle's version was technically perfect and she certainly knew what she was singing about, although there isn't a great deal of tonal colouring in that recording.
> 
> I then turned to Price and the voice was arguably even more beautiful than Ponselle's, but much of the ornamentation was sloppy and there wasn't much more dramatic input compared to Ponselle. I left Callas until last and despite my being very familiar with her recording it felt like a revelation. Here was Elvira (and remember that Callas was in some ways at a disadvantage as both Price and Ponselle sang the complete role on stage). Callas' technique wasn't as good as Ponselle's and there are certainly plenty of places where the registers don't co-ordinate properly resulting in that uncomfortable wobble. However, her ability to sing the aria as written means that I find her version less jarring than Price's...Furthermore, interpretation and expression are more important to me than technique and so whilst I acknowledge that Ponselle's is the best recording as far as the latter is concerned, my favourite is the Callas as when I listen to her version I am so absorbed by Elvira's emotions that I don't concentrate on the frayed quality of much of the vocal writing that lies too high for Callas at that stage of her career.
> 
> N.


During her masterclasses Callas told a student who attempted _Ernni, involami!_ to isten to Ponselle as a good example of how the aria should be performed. One commentator on the masterclasses opined that the student would indeed have learned a great deal from Ponselle's superb and easy technique, but they would have learned a lot more about true Verdian style and elegant phrasing if they listened to Callas. As always with Callas, the trills and firoriture are perfectly executed but also musically expressive. They are not just embellishments, she uses them to create and express character binding them into the musical fabric of the whole. Her voice is nowhere near as beautiful or as firm as Ponselle's in the aria, but she still makes an effect because of the way she uses the notes to express the dramatic situation.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

> I then turned to Price and the voice was arguably even more beautiful than Ponselle's, but much of the ornamentation was sloppy and there wasn't much more dramatic input compared to Ponselle. I left Callas until last and despite my being very familiar with her recording it felt like a revelation. Here was Elvira (and remember that Callas was in some ways at a disadvantage as both Price and Ponselle sang the complete role on stage). Callas' technique wasn't as good as Ponselle's and there are certainly plenty of places where the registers don't co-ordinate properly resulting in that uncomfortable wobble. However, her ability to sing the aria as written means that I find her version less jarring than Price's (as Vivalagentenuova has stated, this depends on personal taste). Furthermore, interpretation and expression are more important to me than technique and so whilst I acknowledge that Ponselle's is the best recording as far as the latter is concerned, my favourite is the Callas as when I listen to her version I am so absorbed by Elvira's emotions that I don't concentrate on the frayed quality of much of the vocal writing that lies too high for Callas at that stage of her career.







Cerquetti has a lovely version with that huge dark velvet voice, a bit more dramatic than Price.
A connection with Callas who she replaced at the infamous 58 Rome Norma walk off.......

During my "buy anything from Bel Canto society label" phase I purchased her wonderful live performance


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> Nina Cerquetti has a lovely version with that huge dark velvet voice, a bit more dramatic than Price.
> A connection with Callas who she replaced at the infamous Rome Norma walk off.......
> 
> During my "buy anything from Bel Canto society label" phase I purchased her wonderful live performance







Hmm. She has a very beautiful voice, indeed. I noticed she uses her chest register sparingly or not at all - she sticks to what she told Stefan Zucker in that weird film he made. In the cabaletta, which I posted above, she dodges the trills, though she seems to start it but leaves it unfinished. It's truly a pity that she stopped singing when she did. Voices like hers don't come around very often.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

It is certainly a shame that Cerquetti's career ended almost just as it had started (although we got a great studio Gioconda that would have been ruined IMO if Tebaldi had been put in front of the microphones). However, I find her tone too grand for Elvira, it needs Callas (and Price to a certain extent) to remind us that this is a woman _in love_. I don't hear that in Cerquetti's protrayal, although it is wonderfully sung and one wonders what this voice could have done had she continued to sing.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> I've never though Caballe was a paragon of accuracy in coloratura.


Especially early Caballe could be rather impressive but she couldn't trill, which is one of the key coloratura elements IMHO. Other than that, her early Rossini and Donizetti Heroines from the '60's was quite wonderful.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Callas voice was still fabulous through 55, although the post weight loss notes above the staff were no longer of epic proportions. I think her technique was always impeccable but breathing problems post weight loss began showing up noticeably after 55. All her 55 recordings are miracles of perfect singing. Part of it could have been the boon of youth which allowed her to hold the voice together so well for a couple of years after the weight loss. I don't believe her coloratura ever suffered like the rest of her voice increasingly did after the weight loss.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I have just finished reading The Unknown Callas: The Greek Years and an interesting theory is put forward about why she had the wobble (that was there at the start). The writer of the book suggests it was because Callas strained her voice whilst listening to sopranos on the radio in New York before she ever had singing lessons and he bases this on some statements that Maria Trivella made. I have to say I'm not convinced, but I am not sure which of the theories I support more than the others at the moment.

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I have just finished reading The Unknown Callas: The Greek Years and an interesting theory is put forward about why she had the wobble (that was there at the start). The writer of the book suggests it was because Callas strained her voice whilst listening to sopranos on the radio in New York before she ever had singing lessons and he bases this on some statements that Maria Trivella made. I have to say I'm not convinced, but I am not sure which of the theories I support more than the others at the moment.
> 
> N.


Whichever theory one espouses, the truth is that no one knows. Voice teachers, vocal coaches, even other singers have their theories that may or may be true. What is true is that Callas had an imperfect voice, an uneven voice. But that voice was able to express more dramatic truth than any other voice before or since. No need to distort the vocal line to be "dramatic," or to chew the scenery, or to roll on the floor or sing upside down.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

MAS said:


> But that voice was able to express more dramatic truth than any other voice before or since.


Couldn't disagree more.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Deleted post.........


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## mparta (Sep 29, 2020)

Hilarious thread after.. 
Just listening to the Met's site excerpt of Sutherland in Lucia, Spargi d'amaro.

Good God, I have recently expressed opinions about the blandness of her singing and my subsequent disinterest, but what I just heard is magnificent, magnificent, magnificent. No idea what she was saying, but the beauty of the tone, the range, and those trills!!!!

Unbelievable, and now the final indignity, I was at this run of Lucia and remember being stunned by it, but lost that and now have recovered. She really is La Stupenda. That Prima Donna Assoluta accolade fits. Humbling to realize such beautiful singing exists.

And she was 56 when that performance was filmed. Gulp.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> Whichever theory one espouses, the truth is that no one knows. Voice teachers, vocal coaches, even other singers have their theories that may or may be true. What is true is that Callas had an imperfect voice, an uneven voice. But that voice was able to express more dramatic truth than any other voice before or since. No need to distort the vocal line to be "dramatic," or to chew the scenery, or to roll on the floor or sing upside down.


You cannot leave Magda Olivero out of the mix. She was not a floor roller and she was able to express dramatic truth from within ably.
I have also read in one of my myriad Callas tomes that her beloved teacher Hidalgo discovered Maria's wobble early on and attempted to help her with exercises. Face it, Callas had a wobble and it got worse as she got older. So what. I'd rather have her wobble and imperfect voice than some who have "the perfect sound" but lack depth and only pretend at it.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> You cannot leave Magda Olivero out of the mix. She was not a floor roller and she was able to express dramatic truth from within ably.
> I have also read in one of my myriad Callas tomes that her beloved teacher Hidalgo discovered Maria's wobble early on and attempted to help her with exercises. Face it, Callas had a wobble and it got worse as she got older. So what. I'd rather have her wobble and imperfect voice than some who have "the perfect sound" but lack depth and only pretend at it.


I do appreciate Miss Olivero, her 1958 *Adriana Lecouvreur* is in my CD library. I've also been lucky to have seen her live at San Francisco opera, in a 1978 *Tosca*, in which the Mario was so young, he could've been her grandson, but the singing was in the grand manner, the high Cs steady and true, the scenery well chewed. She alternated *Tosca* with Montserrat Caballe and Gwyneth Jones. We were lucky in those days! 
The other performance I remember is *La Voix Humaine*, 1979, a _tour de force_ in which the singer is on stage with a telephone, through which she communicates with her lover, alternately cajoling, berating, begging, crying. A part made for a singer like Olivero.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

mparta said:


> Hilarious thread after..
> Just listening to the Met's site excerpt of Sutherland in Lucia, Spargi d'amaro.
> 
> Good God, I have recently expressed opinions about the blandness of her singing and my subsequent disinterest, but what I just heard is magnificent, magnificent, magnificent. No idea what she was saying, but the beauty of the tone, the range, and those trills!!!!
> ...


Joan Sutherland certainly was a vocal phenomenon, with a whole arsenal of vocal gifts, and made a sensational debut as *Lucia di Lammermoor* at Covent Garden in 1959. Then the world was at her feet.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

MAS said:


> I do appreciate Miss Olivero, her 1958 *Adriana Lecouvreur* is in my CD library. I've also been lucky to have seen her live at San Francisco opera, in a 1978 *Tosca*, in which the Mario was so young, he could've been her grandson, but the singing was in the grand manner, the high Cs steady and true, the scenery well chewed. She alternated *Tosca* with Montserrat Caballe and Gwyneth Jones. We were lucky in those days!
> The other performance I remember is *La Voix Humaine*, 1979, a _tour de force_ in which the singer is on stage with a telephone, through which she communicates with her lover, alternately cajoling, berating, begging, crying. A part made for a singer like Olivero.
> 
> View attachment 145408


Green I tell you. GREEN!!! My envy has no bounds. What I wouldn't have given to see Magda in my lifetime. I discovered her too late. Bummer.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Joan Sutherland certainly was a vocal phenomenon, with a whole arsenal of vocal gifts, and made a sensational debut as *Lucia di Lammermoor* at Covent Garden in 1959. Then the world was at her feet.


Unlike many of her fans, Callas was a fan of Sutherland. She saw her do Lucia and remarked after seeing her run all over the stage while singing big coloratura scales " I couldn't do that!" I am glad I can be a fan of both. Callas was certainly truly remarkable as Lucia both in recording and onstage, but Sutherland did hundreds of performances of the role to great acclaim and was still running around the stage singing coloratura in her 60's! I would say Callas and Sutherland were the apex of the art of the trill.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Unlike many of her fans, Callas was a fan of Sutherland. She saw her do Lucia and remarked after seeing her run all over the stage while singing big coloratura scales " I couldn't do that!" I am glad I can be a fan of both. Callas was certainly truly remarkable as Lucia both in recording and onstage, but Sutherland did hundreds of performances of the role to great acclaim and was still running around the stage singing coloratura in her 60's! I would say Callas and Sutherland were the apex of the art of the trill.


I've been listening to a lot of very early Sutherland recently (her first live Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula and her first studio recordings of those). Her voice changed very quickly after 1961 and whilst the difference between her second bel canto recordings of her main roles and the first is large, her voice was very different pre 1961 and I love her clear diction (in addition she tends to be more dramatically involved).

That said there's lots of Sutherland gems I like all across her career despite not being a super fan.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I've been listening to a lot of very early Sutherland recently (her first live Lucia, Puritani and Sonnambula and her first studio recordings of those). Her voice changed very quickly after 1961 and whilst the difference between her second bel canto recordings of her main roles and the first is large, her voice was very different pre 1961 and I love her clear diction (in addition she tends to be more dramatically involved).
> 
> That said there's lots of Sutherland gems I like all across her career despite not being a super fan.
> 
> N.


Many agree with you about the voice change and I hear it. It doesn't bother me like it does others.. I like her better later for some reason. If the less bright vocal placement helped her keep singing longer it probably worked. I had heard bonynge did it for a long term vocal preservation. Thanks for piping in.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Many agree with you about the voice change and I hear it. It doesn't bother me like it does others.. I like her better later for some reason. If the less bright vocal placement helped her keep singing longer it probably worked. I had heard bonynge did it for a long term vocal preservation. Thanks for piping in.


The change doesn't bother me and whilst I prefer the clearer diction, she was such a vocal phenomenon I can forgive her for it in the main. I just found it interesting that it's not only early vs late (and I have favourites from both, love her second Elvira in Puritani in Edinburgh and also her second studio Norma), but it's very early, early and late. (Mind you that is true of Callas as well, it's more a progression of continuous vocal change rather than two distinct voices).

Later Freni gets a very bad rap hereabouts, whereas I prefer the darker voice she had later on. It was only at the very end of her career where the voice had gone IMO.

N.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Unlike many of her fans, Callas was a fan of Sutherland. She saw her do Lucia and remarked after seeing her run all over the stage while singing big coloratura scales " I couldn't do that!" I am glad I can be a fan of both. Callas was certainly truly remarkable as Lucia both in recording and onstage, but Sutherland did hundreds of performances of the role to great acclaim and was still running around the stage singing coloratura in her 60's! I would say Callas and Sutherland were the apex of the art of the trill.


Let us not forget Beverly Sills' Lucia. She of a wonderful trill.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Let us not forget Beverly Sills' Lucia. She of a wonderful trill.


Nina, I saw Beverly Sills when I was in high school, but she used a mic at our coliseum, singing Traviata excerpts. I would have loved to have heard her in a regular opera house. She could be amazing. I saw her up close and she was a very striking woman and very nice to me. To my ear her trills were variable in quality, but could be great.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Lucky you! "Bubbles" was one of the greats.:cheers:


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Many agree with you about the voice change and I hear it. It doesn't bother me like it does others.. I like her better later for some reason. If the less bright vocal placement helped her keep singing longer it probably worked. I had heard bonynge did it for a long term vocal preservation. Thanks for piping in.


I cannot like Sutherland's voice after 1960/1961, when she had her sinus problems. The middle voice became cloudy and peculiar, though the upper voice still had remarkable purity. I believe her surgery is the reason for the cloudy middle voice and Bonynge attributes the mushy diction to their striving to improve her _legato_! Thank goodness Sutherland recorded the first two albums when she did.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Unlike many of her fans, Callas was a fan of Sutherland. She saw her do Lucia and remarked after seeing her run all over the stage while singing big coloratura scales " I couldn't do that!" I am glad I can be a fan of both. Callas was certainly truly remarkable as Lucia both in recording and onstage, but Sutherland did hundreds of performances of the role to great acclaim and was still running around the stage singing coloratura in her 60's! I would say Callas and Sutherland were the apex of the art of the trill.


According to Zeffirelli, he had Sutherland run all over the stage because, unlike Maria, she had "a big, ugly head," and he didn't want her standing still, so he devinde that solution. Sutherland kept that choreography for most, if not all her * Lucias*. Even in those television _The Voice of Firestone_ scenes, she ran all over the sets up and down the stairs.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Nina, I saw Beverly Sills when I was in high school, but she used a mic at our coliseum, singing Traviata excerpts. I would have loved to have heard her in a regular opera house. She could be amazing. I saw her up close and she was a very striking woman and very nice to me. To my ear her trills were variable in quality, but could be great.


I saw her many times in San Francisco, in *Lucia di Lammermoor*, *I Puritani*. *Manon*, *La Traviata*, *Thais*, *La Fille du Regiment*.

Less well known are her earlier assumptions as a Valkyrie or Rheinmaiden, a maid in *Elektra*, Elena in *Mefistofele*, and Dona Elvira in *Don Giovanni* in the early 1950s. I was not there for those, of course! :lol:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> According to Zeffirelli, he had Sutherland run all over the stage because, unlike Maria, she had "a big, ugly head," and he didn't want her standing still, so he devinde that solution. Sutherland kept that choreography for most, if not all her * Lucias*. Even in those television _The Voice of Firestone_ scenes, she ran all over the sets up and down the stairs.


He also said that he saw Callas in the Karajan *Lucias* and that in the Mad Scene Karajan just dimmed all the lights on stage, leaving a follow spot on Callas and then left her alone to do what she wanted, because that's all you had to do with a Callas, her movements were always perfectly in tune with the music.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> I cannot like Sutherland's voice after 1960/1961, when she had her sinus problems. The middle voice became cloudy and peculiar, though the upper voice still had remarkable purity. I believe her surgery is the reason for the cloudy middle voice and Bonynge attributes the mushy diction to their striving to improve her _legato_! Thank goodness Sutherland recorded the first two albums when she did.


Thanks for this. This rings a dim bell, but I hadn't fully understood how different her voice was in that very narrow timeframe (1959-61). I prefer her post 61 voice as it has more character, but I was bowed over with how her artistry was much more fluid in those early live recordings (however, I haven't heard much of Sutherland live).

When it comes to Lucia and Joan's choreography, are we sure what Callas meant by 'I couldn't do that'? Did she mean she wouldn't be able to (possibly her eyesight), or that she wouldn't have felt it was right from an artistic point of view. Callas often moved very slowly, her gestures being all about understatement and all the more hypnotic as a result.

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Thanks for this. This rings a dim bell, but I hadn't fully understood how different her voice was in that very narrow timeframe (1959-61). I prefer her post 61 voice as it has more character, but I was bowed over with how her artistry was much more fluid in those early live recordings (however, I haven't heard much of Sutherland live).
> 
> When it comes to Lucia and Joan's choreography, are we sure what Callas meant by 'I couldn't do that'? Did she mean she wouldn't be able to (possibly her eyesight), or that she wouldn't have felt it was right from an artistic point of view. Callas often moved very slowly, her gestures being all about understatement and all the more hypnotic as a result.
> 
> N.


I don't know if "I couldn't do that" meant Callas could not do it physically, or couldn't because she _wouldn't_ do it. We know Callas was _capable_ of running down dozens of steps and hitting a high note (as in *Ifigénia in Tauride*), but whether she'd _want to_ run around all over _during_ the Mad Scene in *Lucia* is another thing. Perhaps she just mean to compliment Sutherland slightly, admiringly. Remember she asked one if the directors (in *Vespri?*) to move everyone around her, "I stand still?"

As to Sutherland, even in 1961 there was a marked change in the voice, but I think Bonynge's influence was more pernicious - though there is a change in the resonance after the sinus thing (more like singing into a bottle)  the disappearance of her diction made the change in the voice more apparent, but only in that register. The rest of the voice (i.e. the top) sounds fine. The chest register wasn't used with any import to make enough of a difference.

One thing I noticed in re-visiting the *Messa da Requiem*, Sutherland did not sing _pianissimo_ very often, or very happily. Did y'all ever notice her pianissimo, especially the high notes? I didn't listen to her very often, so I don't know - are there examples of Sutherland's _acuti_ being sung pianissimo? In the *Requiem* at least, they're not sung at that dynamic.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

MAS said:


> One thing I noticed in re-visiting the *Messa da Requiem*, Sutherland did not sing _pianissimo_ very often, or very happily. Did y'all ever notice her pianissimo, especially the high notes? I didn't listen to her very often, so I don't know - are there examples of Sutherland's _acuti_ being sung pianissimo? In the *Requiem* at least, they're not sung at that dynamic.







Listen to around 7:18
The recording was made in 1960, a good period for the voice.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> Listen to around 7:18
> The recording was made in 1960, a good period for the voice.


That was great but I don't remember her singing many glorious piano high notes like Callas or Caballe. I'll take a glorious FF high D anyday You might be onto something about the sinus surgery. I believe she had very large sinuses and clearing them out was bound to effect the sound in some way. With regards to her jaw, which I credit as being responsible for a lot of the amplitude in her sound, she learned ways to pose herself so it was not as prominent. It was like Jayne Mansfield's silhouette was as much dependent on her posture as her blessings;-)


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> That was great but I don't remember her singing many glorious piano high notes like Callas or Caballe. I'll take a glorious FF high D anyday You might be onto something about the sinus surgery. I believe she had very large sinuses and clearing them out was bound to effect the sound in some way. With regards to her jaw, which I credit as being responsible for a lot of the amplitude in her sound, she learned ways to pose herself so it was not as prominent. It was like Jayne Mansfield's silhouette was as much dependent on her posture as her blessings;-)


One thing we notice is that Sutherland usually stretches out her neck to the utmost, giving the impression she's looking down on everybody, especially since she's usually taller than everyone on stage, except maybe Pavarotti.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> *Thanks for this. This rings a dim bell, but I hadn't fully understood how different her voice was in that very narrow timeframe (1959-61). I prefer her post 61 voice as it has more character, but I was bowed over with how her artistry was much more fluid in those early live recordings (however, I haven't heard much of Sutherland live).*
> 
> When it comes to Lucia and Joan's choreography, are we sure what Callas meant by 'I couldn't do that'? Did she mean she wouldn't be able to (possibly her eyesight), or that she wouldn't have felt it was right from an artistic point of view. Callas often moved very slowly, her gestures being all about understatement and all the more hypnotic as a result.
> 
> N.


I prefer her post '61 voice too. I'm not convinced the sinus problems explain the difference in her voice.

The date of her sinus surgery was March 1959 (according to Norma Major's biography) i.e. just one month after Sutherland's debut at Covent Garden in _Lucia_.

This places it one month before the recital recorded with Santi, two months before the recording of _Acis and Galatea_ with Boult, about seven months before _Don Giovanni_ with Giulini, a year-and-a-bit before recording the "Art of the Prima Donna" etc. The vast majority of her successes were post-sinus-op.

It seems odd to me that if the sinus problems and surgery had a deleterious effect that this would be delayed by a couple of years.

Another way of looking at it is that the bright sound she had for her Lucia debut and a few years afterwards was anomalous.

She sang lyric roles through the 1950s and her voice was sounding darker even by the time she was singing _Semiramide_ at La Scala in 1962. Did her voice just revert to a more natural placement?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Thanks for this. This rings a dim bell, but I hadn't fully understood how different her voice was in that very narrow timeframe (1959-61). I prefer her post 61 voice as it has more character, but I was bowed over with how her artistry was much more fluid in those early live recordings (however, I haven't heard much of Sutherland live).
> 
> When it comes to Lucia and Joan's choreography, are we sure what Callas meant by 'I couldn't do that'? Did she mean she wouldn't be able to (possibly her eyesight), or that she wouldn't have felt it was right from an artistic point of view. Callas often moved very slowly, her gestures being all about understatement and all the more hypnotic as a result.
> 
> N.


"Mushy diction"? Surely you could never understand a single word sung by Joan Sutherland!! I watched a program just this week on "Legends of Opera" and it was about Pavarotti. There were excerpts of him singing with Joan Sutherland - for reasons which escaped me entirely. She just warbled with her mouth open and you could make no sense of what she was singing about. Conversely, Pavarotti's diction was always superb. And Joan had a good face for radio. A kind of cult grew around her in Australia. One of my colleagues at ABC-TV - a producer - made a documentary about Joan and "Dickie" in the 1970s and then he went on to write a book about her. It was always amusing to me to hear him talk about his book, and Joan and "Dickie", but not a single word about the music. This same producer was a huge fan of the Marx Brothers and would share his paraphernalia with the office. Somehow there seemed, to me at least, a perfect symmetry between the Marx Brothers and Joan and "Dickie"!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Christabel said:


> "Mushy diction"? Surely you could never understand a single word sung by Joan Sutherland!! I watched a program just this week on "Legends of Opera" and it was about Pavarotti. There were excerpts of him singing with Joan Sutherland - for reasons which escaped me entirely. She just warbled with her mouth open and you could make no sense of what she was singing about. Conversely, Pavarotti's diction was always superb.


This brings a recollection of a conversation with my sister, in which she, a Pavarotti fan, expressed annoyance/regret that Decca made so many recordings pairing him with Sutherland. I'm not a great fan of either of them (though I enjoy Pav's early work and some of hers too), and have never had any of those recordings, or even heard most of them. Maybe I'm missing something, but life is short.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> This brings a recollection of a conversation with my sister, in which she, a Pavarotti fan, expressed annoyance/regret that Decca made so many recordings pairing him with Sutherland. I'm not a great fan of either of them (though I enjoy Pav's early work and some of hers too), and have never had any of those recordings, or even heard most of them. Maybe I'm missing something, but life is short.


I somewhat remember that we had a Joan Sutherland Christmas LP, which my mother liked and I always hated. I don't recall now if my reaction was based more on her actual voice, or the operatic approach to Christmas carols.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

JAS said:


> I somewhat remember that we had a Joan Sutherland Christmas LP, which my mother liked and I always hated. I don't recall now if my reaction was based more on her actual voice, or the operatic approach to Christmas carols.


It would be interesting to hear that. Opera singers have made some fine Christmas albums. I had an LP of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf which I liked very much. I also had a Christmas album containing several opera singers of the '50s and '60s, including Eileen Farrell, who sang a beautiful "Coventry Carol." Jussi Bjorling's "O Holy Night," recorded in Swedish, is just incomparably glorious, but then that carol is virtually an opera aria anyway, written by opera composer Adolphe Adam. The first singer to record that piece may have been Caruso, who sang it in the original French. Really, I think a lot of Christmas carols fare well with operatic voices. They do work best when the words are clear, however. We don't need to hear "Uww Hwwlu Nuwght."


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> It would be interesting to hear that. Opera singers have made some fine Christmas albums. I had an LP of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf which I liked very much. I also had a Christmas album containing several opera singers of the '50s and '60s, including Eileen Farrell, who sang a beautiful "Coventry Carol." Jussi Bjorling's "O Holy Night," recorded in Swedish, is just incomparably glorious, *but then that carol is virtually an opera aria anyway*, written by opera composer Adolphe Adam. The first singer to record that piece may have been Caruso, who sang it in the original French. Really, I think a lot of Christmas carols fare well with operatic voices. They do work best when the words are clear, however. We don't need to hear "Uww Hwwlu Nuwght."


Corelli certainly thought so


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Corelli certainly thought so


He certainly brought down the house with that. I should probably avoid commenting on his stylistic qualities, , but I do come back the noble purity of this:






It makes me want to be a Swede.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> It would be interesting to hear that. Opera singers have made some fine Christmas albums. I had an LP of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf which I liked very much. I also had a Christmas album containing several opera singers of the '50s and '60s, including Eileen Farrell, who sang a beautiful "Coventry Carol." Jussi Bjorling's "O Holy Night," recorded in Swedish, is just incomparably glorious, but then that carol is virtually an opera aria anyway, written by opera composer Adolphe Adam. The first singer to record that piece may have been Caruso, who sang it in the original French. Really, I think a lot of Christmas carols fare well with operatic voices. They do work best when the words are clear, however. We don't need to hear "Uww Hwwlu Nuwght."


Jussi Bjorling!! What's not to love?

Getting back to the OP: I've always admired Maria Callas. Sometimes her voice became muddy, yes, but her singing and acting were from a person who had really lived and known life's capriciousness. I absolutely believed in what she was performing at the time. There was an authenticity about it, regardless of whether you think her voice was the essence of operatic purity. Is there such a thing anyway? I don't think so. Each singer brings his/her own particular uniqueness to the stage. Callas was unique.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> He certainly brought down the house with that. I should probably avoid commenting on his stylistic qualities, , but I do come back the noble purity of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are times listening to Bjorling when I can't ever recall hearing a more beautiful sound in those roles.

One example is the Trovatore at Covent Garden where, per the OP, Bjorling could trill twice in "Ah sì ben mio"


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2020)

Bjorling was quite a tragic figure and died aged 49 after a lifetime battle with alcoholism. Why is it that so many creative and talented people wrestle with demons in a way that we ordinary mortals generally do not? (Serious question)

There's also much more vibrato on display with Bjorling than I've generally experienced with other male opera singers.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Revitalized Classics said:


> There are times listening to Bjorling when I can't ever recall hearing a more beautiful sound in those roles.
> 
> One example is the Trovatore at Covent Garden where, per the OP, Bjorling could trill twice in "Ah sì ben mio"


What a testament to the power of technique to release a singer's expressive capabilities! Will we ever again hear such a perfect tenor?

As far as trills go, Caruso also had a spectacular one - hear it in his recording of "Ombra mai fu" - along with impeccable coloratura as heard at the end of "La donna e mobile."





 (This may be the best remastering I've heard to capture the glory of his timbre.)


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> What a testament to the power of technique to release a singer's expressive capabilities! Will we ever again hear such a perfect tenor?
> 
> As far as trills go, Caruso also had a spectacular one - hear it in his recording of "Ombra mai fu" - along with impeccable coloratura as heard at the end of "La donna e mobile."
> 
> ...


Terrific performances.

On top of that, as you noted the _Serse_ remastering is exceptional - have you ever heard a voice from 1920 with such clarity, presence and such little background noise? Witchcraft.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Christabel said:


> Bjorling was quite a tragic figure and died aged 49 after a lifetime battle with alcoholism. Why is it that so many creative and talented people wrestle with demons in a way that we ordinary mortals generally do not? (Serious question)
> 
> There's also much more vibrato on display with Bjorling than I've generally experienced with other male opera singers.


Frankly I know plenty of people with little talent who also wrestle with demons. Just the talented people get noticed.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

JAS said:


> I somewhat remember that we had a Joan Sutherland Christmas LP, which my mother liked and I always hated. I don't recall now if my reaction was based more on her actual voice, or the operatic approach to Christmas carols.


I have that disc and it's quite good fun, some of the arrangements being quite over the top. That said, I was playing her singing _It came upon the midnight clear_ once, and my partner asked me quite seriously what language she was singing it in. He was utterfly amazed to find it was supposed to be English as he couldn't make out a single word!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It would be interesting to hear that. Opera singers have made some fine Christmas albums. I had an LP of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf which I liked very much. I also had a Christmas album containing several opera singers of the '50s and '60s, including Eileen Farrell, who sang a beautiful "Coventry Carol." Jussi Bjorling's "O Holy Night," recorded in Swedish, is just incomparably glorious, but then that carol is virtually an opera aria anyway, written by opera composer Adolphe Adam. The first singer to record that piece may have been Caruso, who sang it in the original French. Really, I think a lot of Christmas carols fare well with operatic voices. They do work best when the words are clear, however. We don't need to hear "Uww Hwwlu Nuwght."


I have the Schwarzkopf and there's also a very well known one by Leontyne Price with Karajan and the VPO. It generally comes out every year.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have that disc and it's quite good fun, some of the arrangements being quite over the top. That said, I was playing her singing _It came upon the midnight clear_ once, and my partner asked my quite seriously what language she was singing it in. He was utterfly amazed to find it was supposed to be English as he couldn't make out a single word!


'Joan's Christmas album' has it is referred to in our household is essential Christmas listening and a good antidote to the conveyor belt of blander Christmas albums from more recent singers.

Our favourite is Leontyne Price's, it's just what you need from a Christmas album and no doubt her experience singing spirituals in her youth helped inform the style.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> 'Joan's Christmas album' has it is referred to in our household is essential Christmas listening and a good antidote to the conveyor belt of blander Christmas albums from more recent singers.
> 
> Our favourite is Leontyne Price's, it's just what you need from a Christmas album and no doubt her experience singing spirituals in her youth helped inform the style.
> 
> N.


In our household it's always Leontyne Price and Scwharzkopf. The Sutherland gets an occasional outing, but most of my friends just laugh at the absence of words. :devil:

The other one that comes out every year is the Barbra Streisand Christmas Album.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> In our household it's always Leontyne Price and Scwharzkopf. The Sutherland gets an occasional outing, but most of my friends just laugh at the absence of words. :devil:
> 
> The other one that comes out every year is the Barbra Streisand Christmas Album.


I don't have the Schwarzkopf as a single CD (it seems the recordings are spread over several in the big and small box sets). Both Price and Joan come out every year. However, Joan isn't played when guests are present!

I took the daring plunge to get the new Kaufmann 2 disc set. I don't already have a disc of German Christmas classics AND I'll put up with them being oversung at Christmas.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I don't have the Schwarzkopf as a single CD (it seems the recordings are spread over several in the big and small box sets). Both Price and Joan come out every year. However, Joan isn't played when guests are present!
> 
> N.


It's included in the Schwarzkopf Recital box set with the title










Now how did we all get on to Christmas albums in a thread titled Callas and Trills?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I have that disc and it's quite good fun, some of the arrangements being quite over the top. That said, I was playing her singing _It came upon the midnight clear_ once, and my partner asked me quite seriously what language she was singing it in. He was utterfly amazed to find it was supposed to be English as he couldn't make out a single word!


Everyone who loves Christmas should be familiar with "Uwd Cwwwm Uwhwwwn uw Mwwwhnnwt Clihhhh."

My God, that looks like Welsh.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Everyone who loves Christmas should be familiar with "Uwd Cwwwm Uwhwwwn uw Mwwwhnnwt Clihhhh."
> 
> My God, that looks like Welsh.


Well I also have the Bryn Terfel Christmas album with a bonus disc in Welsh...

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> It's included in the Schwarzkopf Recital box set with the title
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trust me to miss it! That will come out this year!

N.


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> He certainly brought down the house with that. I should probably avoid commenting on his stylistic qualities, , but I do come back the noble purity of this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ultimately prefer this one:





To me, it seems to better bring out the qualities I think appropriate given the text of the piece.

More on the topic of the thread, a couple of days ago I saw the thread "Does Sondra Radvanovsky Need A Petition From Us To Get Work?" Being embarrassed that I didn't know much about an opera singer of my own nationality I watched her sing a couple of things, notably this





For immediate comparison, I, of course, turned to Callas





It makes me wonder what the appeal of going to operas live anymore (I've never been). Listen to those trills; this isn't really a matter of subjective preference, Callas just sings them better by any reasonable definition of quality in singing.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

^^^ What hits me right off is the fragmented, shapeless, aimless, inert line in Radvanovsky's singing, the effect of weakness amplified by her warbling vibrato. The piece just limps along in a daze. A slow tempo is no excuse for failing to bind the phrases together and keep the music moving. Callas' taut and detailed phrasing is masterful in everything she sings, but it's especially notable in bel canto where the singer is everything.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> ^^^ What hits me right off is the fragmented, shapeless, aimless, inert line in Radvanovsky's singing, the effect of weakness amplified by her warbling vibrato. The piece just limps along in a daze. A slow tempo is no excuse for failing to bind the phrases together and keep the music moving. Callas' taut and detailed phrasing is masterful in everything she sings, but it's especially notable in bel canto where the singer is everything.


You took the words right out of my mouth! I was somewhat bemused by the suggestion that Radvanovsky's Trov Leonora was a must listen. I'd rather listen to Tucci (among others who are even better, of course!)

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BachIsBest said:


> I ultimately prefer this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you know this one? It says arr. Mackerras, but it was actually an attempt at reproducing what was heard at the carol's first ever performance, though, due to the wonders of modern technology Schwazrkopf duets with herself.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth! I was somewhat bemused by the suggestion that Radvanovsky's Trov Leonora was a must listen. I'd rather listen to Tucci (among others who are even better, of course!)
> 
> N.


Funny I have Tucci on disc and rated Radvanovsky higher.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth! I was somewhat bemused by the suggestion that Radvanovsky's Trov Leonora was a must listen. I'd rather listen to Tucci (among others who are even better, of course!)
> 
> N.


I remember listening to her Verdi Arias album a couple of years ago and thinking how monochrome her singing was. She was not helped by the cavernous acoustic admittedly, but she rarely varied timbre or colour, and every aria was delivered in the same way. The Bellini BachisBest posted above is slightly better (I don't know when it was recorded) but, musically it is stagnant.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Not comparing to the past as they aren't singing today, but few have the vocal size and range of Radvanovsky today. I would love to hear her sing Verdi and Bellini live, but not if any of the greats of the past were still singing in opera houses. I also like her commanding stage presence. I have no desire to hear her in a recording. I would be curious to hear how her vocal size compared to Sutherland from someone who heard both live. It is supposed to be enormous.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Not comparing to the past as they aren't singing today, but few have the vocal size and range of Radvanovsky today. I would love to hear her sing Verdi and Bellini live, but not if any of the greats of the past were still singing in opera houses. I also like her commanding stage presence. I have no desire to hear her in a recording. I would be curious to hear how her vocal size compared to Sutherland from someone who heard both live. It is supposed to be enormous.


I never heard Sutherland live, Radvanovsky I have though and it's not what I would call a large voice. Netrebko's is bigger.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I never heard Sutherland live, Radvanovsky I have though and it's not what I would call a large voice. Netrebko's is bigger.
> 
> N.


I am not doubting you but I was not expecting your statement at all. Thanks for the feedback. I will never hear these people out here where I live.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I am not doubting you but I was not expecting your statement at all. Thanks for the feedback. I will never hear these people out here where I live.


Doesn't Seattle get big name singers occasionally? But I suppose nobody anywhere is hearing any right now with the theaters closed. I do have nice memories of seeing two _Ring_s in Seattle back in the '80s - the famous original Seattle _Ring_ - before leaving rain city for sunny southern Oregon. At this point I can't remember who sang in it, but it was such a privilege to see it it didn't matter.

If you think you're in the boonies in booming Seattle, just try little Ashland, Oregon. Delightful town with fresh air, mountains, theater, little traffic, plenty of sun, relatively little Covid-19, and a lot of socially responsible mask-wearers, but no big name opera stars. Ever. If there were presently any singers I cared desperately about hearing, I might want to be be somewhere else, but since there aren't, I'm pretty content.

BTW, this Covid-19 thing is wearing on me and I'm tired of looking in the mirror for company. If that 
wooly blanket of drizzle ever gets to you and you wonder if summer is going to arrive at all, and you want a lovely vacation (post-pandemic, of course), come on down! And you folks across the pond in Albion, also huddling in the rain no doubt, come on over!

Sorry for the diversion, though I suppose there isn't much more to say about Callas's trills.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Sorry for the diversion, though I suppose there isn't much more to say about Callas's trills.


Callas' trills speak for themselves...

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Doesn't Seattle get big name singers occasionally? But I suppose nobody anywhere is hearing any right now with the theaters closed. I do have nice memories of seeing two _Ring_s in Seattle back in the '80s - the famous original Seattle _Ring_ - before leaving rain city for sunny southern Oregon. At this point I can't remember who sang in it, but it was such a privilege to see it it didn't matter.
> 
> If you think you're in the boonies in booming Seattle, just try little Ashland, Oregon. Delightful town with fresh air, mountains, theater, little traffic, plenty of sun, relatively little Covid-19, and a lot of socially responsible mask-wearers, but no big name opera stars. Ever. If there were presently any singers I cared desperately about hearing, I might want to be be somewhere else, but since there aren't, I'm pretty content.
> 
> ...


Woodduck, we used to. Before I got here Sutherland Corelli and Nilsson all sang here, as well as Rita Hunter in her prime. Big time. When I went to the opera when Speight Jenkins was General Manager, we got many big names before they got big such as Jane Eaglen, Renee Fleming,Ben Heppner, Stephanie Blythe, Lawrence Brownlee. We even had the magnificent Ewa Podles. No big names under the last director and now my money is limited.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Woodduck, we used to. Before I got here Sutherland Corelli and Nilsson all sang here, as well as Rita Hunter in her prime. Big time. When I went to the opera when Speight Jenkins was General Manager, we got many big names before they got big such as Jane Eaglen, Renee Fleming,Ben Heppner, Stephanie Blythe, Lawrence Brownlee. We even had the magnificent Ewa Podles. No big names under the last director and now my money is limited.


During my years there (1982-1995) Seattle appeared to be on the upswing, a trendy city, the "place to be." Sorry to hear that opera has gone downhill. It looks as if we're all waiting to see what the world will look like once we've got Covid under control.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> During my years there (1982-1995) Seattle appeared to be on the upswing, a trendy city, the "place to be." Sorry to hear that opera has gone downhill. It looks as if we're all waiting to see what the world will look like once we've got Covid under control.


Speight Jenkins as General Director is a really tough act to follow I fear. We are getting someone new after only about 4 years with the disappointing last one. Jenkins flew all over the world to explore new singers and had a strong knack for picking out people destined for better things. He would find a number of singers who never made it to the Met, but it was puzzling as to why not as they were such strong performers. They would come here a lot and would have devoted followers here.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Speight Jenkins as General Director is a really tough act to follow I fear. We are getting someone new after only about 4 years with the disappointing last one. Jenkins flew all over the world to explore new singers and had a strong knack for picking out people destined for better things. He would find a number of singers who never made it to the Met, but it was puzzling as to why not as they were such strong performers. They would come here a lot and would have devoted followers here.


That's interesting. I was a struggling ballet accompanist back then, working for PNB, and didn't put out money for opera tickets (ballet tickets were free to employees though). The _Ring _tickets were gifts. Jenkins evidently had a long career in Seattle. I wonder what he's been doing since?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> That's interesting. I was a struggling ballet accompanist back then, working for PNB, and didn't put out money for opera tickets (ballet tickets were free to employees though). The _Ring _tickets were gifts. Jenkins evidently had a long career in Seattle. I wonder what he's been doing since?


Getting old LOL He was well over 70 when he retired. He is missed. I had a boyfriend who was a principlal with PNB 31 years ago- Hugh Bigney. One of my best speeches on Youtube is on Nureyev and I have had over 6000 views. I think it is my best project on Youtube. Do you still play professionally?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Getting old LOL He was well over 70 when he retired. He is missed. I had a boyfriend who was a principlal with PNB 31 years ago- Hugh Bigney. One of my best speeches on Youtube is on Nureyev and I have had over 6000 views. I think it is my best project on Youtube. Do you still play professionally?


You and Hugh were a thing? I remember him, though I didn't know him. Accompanists didn't hobnob much with the dancers, though a slim, good-looking young thing tried to pick me up one evening (I was in my thirties and not unattractive, I guess :lol.

No, I play only for my own pleasure now. I wish I still had ballet work. I love improvising for dance, but jobs have faded away with the ubiquitousness of recorded music. When I inquire about work in most places I hear, "Oh how marvelous! I wish I could afford an accompanist!"

Do you have a link for your Nureyev speech?


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You and Hugh were a thing? I remember him, though I didn't know him. Accompanists didn't hobnob much with the dancers, though a slim, good-looking young thing tried to pick me up one evening (I was in my thirties and not unattractive, I guess :lol.
> 
> No, I play only for my own pleasure now. I wish I still had ballet work. I love improvising for dance, but jobs have faded away with the ubiquitousness of recorded music. When I inquire about work in most places I hear, "Oh how marvelous! I wish I could afford an accompanist!"
> 
> Do you have a link for your Nureyev speech?


















If you only have time to watch one, the second one on his Russian years is an amazing tale. The third, dealing with his partnerships, has the most views.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> If you only have time to watch one, the second one on his Russian years is an amazing tale. The third, dealing with his partnerships, has the most views.


Thanks, John. Very interesting and enjoyable. I remember Nureyev's defection. I think it was my freshman year in high school. His film of _Romeo and Juliet_ with Fonteyn is one of the artistic monuments of the 20th century. Untouchable.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2020)

I once met Nureyev briefly. It was the early 1970s and he had come to Australia with the ballet "Don Quixote" - a silly ballet altogether. I went backstage with a friend afterwards and asked to meet him. We found he had very little English; perhaps he didn't want to talk to us. Anyway, he was wearing a fur hat and he signed a picture each we'd bought of him at the box office.

I threw that autographed picture away in the early 1990s when having a clean-out one day. Ouch.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Christabel said:


> I once met Nureyev briefly. It was the early 1970s and he had come to Australia with the ballet "Don Quixote" - a silly ballet altogether. I went backstage with a friend afterwards and asked to meet him. We found he had very little English; perhaps he didn't want to talk to us. Anyway, he was wearing a fur hat and he signed a picture each we'd bought of him at the box office.
> 
> I threw that autographed picture away in the early 1990s when having a clean-out one day. Ouch.


I lost an autographed photo of Birgit Nilsson. No idea how it happened.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I lost an autographed photo of Birgit Nilsson. No idea how it happened.


I wouldn't dare!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Thanks, John. Very interesting and enjoyable. I remember Nureyev's defection. I think it was my freshman year in high school. His film of _Romeo and Juliet_ with Fonteyn is one of the artistic monuments of the 20th century. Untouchable.


It is unbelievable. Thanks so much for watching!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I lost an autographed photo of Birgit Nilsson. No idea how it happened.


What a wonderful singer altogether!!!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO THE WONDROUS MARIA CALLAS. 
Never to be forgotten in the annals of Operadom.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> It would be interesting to hear that. Opera singers have made some fine Christmas albums. I had an LP of Elisabeth Schwarzkopf which I liked very much. I also had a Christmas album containing several opera singers of the '50s and '60s, including Eileen Farrell, who sang a beautiful "Coventry Carol." Jussi Bjorling's "O Holy Night," recorded in Swedish, is just incomparably glorious, but then that carol is virtually an opera aria anyway, written by opera composer Adolphe Adam. The first singer to record that piece may have been Caruso, who sang it in the original French. Really, I think a lot of Christmas carols fare well with operatic voices. They do work best when the words are clear, however. We don't need to hear "Uww Hwwlu Nuwght."


I think that this is the album, reissued on CD: https://www.amazon.com/Sutherland-Ambrosian-Singers-Philharmonia-Orchestra/dp/B0018NGUMK

Of course, the record had the added bonus of static, scratches and pops.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

JAS said:


> I think that this is the album, reissued on CD: https://www.amazon.com/Sutherland-Ambrosian-Singers-Philharmonia-Orchestra/dp/B0018NGUMK
> 
> Of course, the record had the added bonus of static, scratches and pops.


Yes that's the one. The Douglas Gamly arrangements were are a hoot.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

JAS said:


> I think that this is the album, reissued on CD: https://www.amazon.com/Sutherland-Ambrosian-Singers-Philharmonia-Orchestra/dp/B0018NGUMK
> 
> Of course, the record had the added bonus of static, scratches and pops.


Jessye Norman's was done when she was in fine voice. Sutherland sings O Holy Night like In Questa Reggia and it is wonderful. Check out on Youtube Ponselle singing both versions of Ave Maria.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Revitalized Classics said:


> There are times listening to Bjorling when I can't ever recall hearing a more beautiful sound in those roles.
> 
> One example is the Trovatore at Covent Garden where, per the OP, Bjorling could trill twice in "Ah sì ben mio"


Listening to this left me wondering why Björling stopped trilling later in his career. He does not trill during the same aria in the _Trovatore_ recording with Cellini, nor does he trill in the _Verdi Requiem_ recording under Reiner. Can one lose the ability to trill?


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Parsifal98 said:


> Listening to this left me wondering why Björling stopped trilling later in his career. He does not trill during the same aria in the _Trovatore_ recording with Cellini, nor does he trill in the _Verdi Requiem_ recording under Reiner. Can one lose the ability to trill?


I don't think one can lose the ability to trill. Once you can trill, it becomes a choice. Trills are not very macho, so I think some tenors choose not to.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Parsifal98 said:


> Listening to this left me wondering why Björling stopped trilling later in his career. He does not trill during the same aria in the _Trovatore_ recording with Cellini, nor does he trill in the _Verdi Requiem_ recording under Reiner. Can one lose the ability to trill?


I would have thought that, like any other ability, if you don't practice it, you lose it.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I would have thought that, like any other ability, if you don't practice it, you lose it.


I'm not sure I can agree with that.
My mate was born with perfect pitch. He is almost 90 and still can tell me what note is being sung or played.
I have relative pitch (not such a great thing) but it still is with me.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I just reread this whole thread and was amazed at the wonderful posts by different members.


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## JanacekTheGreat (Feb 26, 2021)

My favorite trills of Callas come from _Coppia iniqua _. Aside from being technically flawless, they invoke a sense of unbounded wrath that none of her imitators can come close to. This is why I think bel canto operas are very, very difficult to bring alive; without a dramatic intent and keen musicianship, the fioritura, even if executed properly, is still borderline on ridiculous.


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