# Random thoughts on Magic Flute



## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

So I got the Keenlyside version on BluRay, based on a recommendation in another thread. As a neophyte to opera I was struck by several things. First, no surprise, the music was spectacular, especially the Queen of the Night's aria where she tells Pamina to kill Sarastro. Second, with apologies, I thought the story was kind of dumb. I loved the clown, Papageno. The whole business of the Initiates made little sense. And the "dangers" that Tamino and Pamina go through, basically just standing there singing while the people in the background make funny motions, was not terribly convincing. I mean, couldn't they have been chased around by monsters or something? The bit at the beginning with Papageno and the chicken was wonderful. 

Then there's the thing with Pamina falling in love with Tamino just because she hears that he loves her, when she doesn't know him from Adam. And it's Papageno who first finds her. (Sorry for the spoiler if you haven't seen it yet.) She should have fallen in love with him. And what kind of shallow doofus falls in love with a girl just from seeing her picture?

Digression: There's a story in the Thousand Nights and a Night (aka the 1001 Nights) in which a guy falls in love with a girl after hearing a street musician sing about her. The next day the same musician sings another song in which the girl dies. And the guy is so devastated that he kills himself. At least Tamino saw a picture of Pamina, but, I mean, really? A picture, and you fall in love? And remember, this was before photography, so it wasn't even a photograph, but a miniature painting, not a reliable representation.

The Queen's aria is surely one of the great songs of all time, but the music does not seem to me to match the subject matter. Especially all the coloratura, which I absolutely adore, doesn't seem to fit with the tone of the words. Who tells her daughter to kill her rival with singing like that? A really evil queen, I guess. The music suggests joy, not hatred. 

I wasn't all that impressed with Sarastro. Even though he was the good guy, I was rooting for the Queen. I'd have had her defeat him, take over the seven circles of the sun, or whatever it was, and marry Pamina to Papageno as punishment for defying her, and as a reward to Papageno for being the one who actually found her daughter. With a voice like that, she deserved to win. Maybe she could find another big snake and feed Tamino to it for being a doofus.

Okay, just the thoughts of someone new to opera. A life-long classical music lover (since I was a very young child) but never before interested in opera. Maybe I'm more of an oratorio kind of guy: Tell me a story in song, and leave out the stage presentation. I never get tired of Messiah, and I don't even believe any of it.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Maybe another version of Magic Flute may help?


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

spokanedaniel said:


> So I got the Keenlyside version on BluRay, based on a recommendation in another thread. As a neophyte to opera I was struck by several things. First, no surprise, the music was spectacular, especially the Queen of the Night's aria where she tells Pamina to kill Sarastro. Second, with apologies, I thought the story was kind of dumb. I loved the clown, Papageno. The whole business of the Initiates made little sense. And the "dangers" that Tamino and Pamina go through, basically just standing there singing while the people in the background make funny motions, was not terribly convincing. I mean, couldn't they have been chased around by monsters or something? The bit at the beginning with Papageno and the chicken was wonderful.
> 
> Then there's the thing with Pamina falling in love with Tamino just because she hears that he loves her, when she doesn't know him from Adam. And it's Papageno who first finds her. (Sorry for the spoiler if you haven't seen it yet.) She should have fallen in love with him. And what kind of shallow doofus falls in love with a girl just from seeing her picture?
> 
> ...


Who goes to an opera for plot or realism though?:lol:


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

spokanedaniel said:


> The whole business of the Initiates made little sense.


It makes more sense if you realise that Tamino has changed his goal from "rescue the princess" to "become a member of the Freemasons".


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

*spokanedaniel *


> The Queen's aria is surely one of the great songs of all time, but the music does not seem to me to match the subject matter. Especially all the coloratura, which I absolutely adore, doesn't seem to fit with the tone of the words. Who tells her daughter to kill her rival with singing like that? A really evil queen, I guess. The music suggests joy, not hatred.


you just haven't heard it sung properly, by a *real* dramatic coloratura soprano

enjoy


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I enjoyed your review. I think your opinions on The Magic Flute are pretty normal, and certainly in tune with my own sentiments on the piece. There's a lot of silliness in opera plots, sometimes intended, sometimes not.

It's often referred to as the World of Opera for good reason - it's a world of its own. We accept the often nonsensical plots/librettos as foundations that cannot be changed. I don't know of any major opera that is performed _because_ it has a good plot, it's more our good fortune when they do. Thankfully we have music, singing, conducting, acting, stage design etc.

spokanedaniel, speaking of opera in general, I can't promise that the feeling you're watching something silly will ever completely go away, but there's more than enough other good things to compensate.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

i think most of us who are Mozart lovers are so overcome with the beauties of the music we are not over concerned with the plot. yes it's daft - but like the plots of other operas - including those by Mozart, Verdi, Wagner and Puccini to mention a few - we suspend our disbelief. What we mustn't do (as some do) is to turn them into great vehicles for philosophical discussion. They are not! they are a product of a great musical mind not a philosopher!


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks for all the comments! When I have time I'll watch the Teatro Alla Scala version linked above.

Thanks also for the Edda Moser aria linked above. She is indeed magnificent. Perhaps indeed a better dramatization.



ahammel said:


> It makes more sense if you realise that Tamino has changed his goal from "rescue the princess" to "become a member of the Freemasons".


Okay, that does make more sense, and it also reinforces my poor opinion of Tamino.

Now I have another crazy thought: Magic Flute is actually a tragedy. The Queen of the Night is the hero, and her tragic flaw, like Hamlet, is cowardice: When the thunder erupts around her, she chickens out and gives up her heroic attempt to attack Sarastro and rescue her daughter from him and his "Initiates." The tone of her great aria is because she knows in advance that she will fail and lose her daughter. "Kill Sarastro or you won't be my daughter" is not a threat to disown her, it's a prophesy of their separation: the Queen's defeat and Pamina's fall into the cult's embraces. Now the coloratura in the opera makes sense, because she's not threatening, she's lamenting.

I've never been really big on movies or TV. I have not owned a TV in 50 years, other than the one in front of the treadmill, and that's only connected to a BluRay player. And from the age of 16 or 17 until the age of around 55 I think I saw half a dozen movies, generally because a friend (or in one case, my mother and sister) wanted me to go. I have read and enjoyed lots of plays, but seen no more than 8 or 10 performances, if that many. So watching a stage performance is unfamiliar to me. Now when I rent movies, they tend to be heavy on plot, which apparently opera is not. I've always been a fan of radio, books, and the phonograph. Given the comments above, that the plots are never really the point of opera, I may end up mostly just listening.

Nothing much really happens in this opera, other than Papageno catching the chicken (a wonderful scene). It would work just as well (except for that scene) as an oratorio, or just an audio recording.

Of course, Mozart never wrote a bad note, so the music is wonderful. When Bach is at his best I like him far more than anything Mozart wrote. When he's at his worst I cannot listen to him. Mozart is always wonderful. So for now I'm going to think of Flute as a tragedy, and mourn the defeat of the Queen as I mourn the death of Cordelia.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

spokanedaniel said:


> Now I have another crazy thought: Magic Flute is actually a tragedy.


Nice thought, but I think Mozart and Schikaneder would be annoyed. The Queen of Night is the irrational, chaotic, (oh dear) female evil force that must be stopped by the rational, enlightened (oh dear) male Freemasons. Err, Priests. I meant to say Priests.

The Flute is, by the way, one of the few works of art where non-crazy people see Masonic symbolism everywhere. Mozart had just joined the Freemasons and was really quite stoked about it. 


spokanedaniel said:


> So watching a stage performance is unfamiliar to me. Now when I rent movies, they tend to be heavy on plot, which apparently opera is not. I've always been a fan of radio, books, and the phonograph. Given the comments above, that the plots are never really the point of opera, I may end up mostly just listening.


Allow me to disagree. I can't think of a libretto that I'd prefer to a good book, but they are often quite solid pieces of writing on their own. I don't think it's too controversial to say that The Magic Flute is a rather weird one. The earlier _Nozze di Figaro_ is quite touching and funny without any help from the music. Despite what I'm sure DavidA will be along to tell you shortly, Wagner was a rather good librettist, and Strauss got some decent work out of his collaborators as well.

If all else fails, Britten set _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ verbatim, and you can't say fairer than that.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2015)

Well, I would suggest you not get your hopes up too high over opera plots. Consider one of Wagner's great operas, die Meistersinger von Nurnberg. In it, a father intends to marry his daughter off to the winner of a singing competition, which, up until the hero arrives, is likely to be one of the most detested figures in the whole story! Or Tristan und Isolde - a couple who initially despise each other end up dying due to their boundless love for one another, not brought on by natural affections, but rather because her nurse slipped them love potions to keep them from killing each other.

But then there are also some pretty ridiculous story lines in movies and plays.

At any rate, I love this opera for its music, and the "die Hoelle Rache" aria is one of the greats! I recommend you listen to the recording by Klemperer on EMI. Lucia Popp is the best Queen of the Night I have heard, and she sings that aria flawlessly.


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## aajj (Dec 28, 2014)

Intrinsic in The Magic Flute is the fantastical element. It was originally staged in 1791 with "magical" stage effects and such. As for tragedy, i cannot see that, but rather as a kind of good versus evil with good inevitably winning and lovers living happily ever after. There are of course highly serious elements, mixing in with the fantastical, such as the trial by water and fire. Also, Sarastro comes across as one serious dude. 

What is also not essential to enjoyment, to me, is the Freemasonry symbolism and no doubt millions of other lovers of this opera feel the same; it's there for anyone who wants to dig into it. As with any great work of art, the enjoyment is on multiple levels. As stated elsewhere on this thread, the music by itself is worth everything! Mozart pulled out all the creative stops.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

I had a creative writing prof who said that the written word speaks for itself, even above the intentions of the author. In that light, I don't worry about what Mozart's or the librettist's intentions were. I choose to read the story as a tragedy because as a tragedy the victory of ignorance and stupidity over brilliant singing is less painful.

In the version I saw, the "trial by water and fire" is nothing more than Tamino playing his magical flute, and he'd have been too stupid even to do that if Pamina had not reminded him to play it. What virtue is there in passing a trial by simply using a magical device that you were given? Tamino does not even earn the flute or obtain it by some brave action or solving some difficult puzzle. He's given the flute, and then is too scatterbrained to remember to use it without being told.

So, while acknowledging your right to see the story differently, I see it as a tragedy.

I found the Lucia Popp version of the aria, and yes, it is really magnificent!

I often enjoy movies with silly plots, but they have constant action. Not just people saying "Oh what a difficult trial this is, whatever shall I do? Play my magical flute? Okay." I've got to say that the music is all this opera has going for it (and Papageno catching the chicken).


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Daniel, I feel I must warn you, lest you become disappointed, that not every version of the Magic Flute features a chicken.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

No chicken??? Sacrilege! Thanks for the warning. If I ever have the opportunity to attend a performance of Magic Flute, I will make sure beforehand that there's a chicken. In fact, I think every opera should have a chicken.


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## Dongiovanni (Jul 30, 2012)

The flute was meant by Schikaneder as a goldmine... And it was a great success for sure. Arguably the libretto is not high standard, Mozart just couldn't do anything else but write music that served the purpose and be brilliant at the same time.


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Queen of the Night need not sound aggressive and evil. It's a show-off aria to be enjoyed, among other things. I would go so far as to say that Mozart was, intuitively if not consciously, trying to show that "good" and "evil" are not absolute. 

My favorite Queen is Sumi Jo.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

spokanedaniel said:


> No chicken??? Sacrilege! Thanks for the warning. If I ever have the opportunity to attend a performance of Magic Flute, I will make sure beforehand that there's a chicken. In fact, I think every opera should have a chicken.


Bring a chicken with you, just in case. I never leave home without one, especially if I happen to pass an opera house. 

Magic Flute is ethereal, it contains the most ghostly, sparse, unnatural music, almost as Mozart had stripped everything to its core and left gaps, silences barely filled, and wisps of strange other-worldly noise that had never been heard before. In some ways, it's the most simple music, appealing famously to the people who loved vaudeville at the time. According to A.L. Bacharach's Musical Companion, it "opens the mysterious door to a new age. It is the first great work of music - perhaps the only one - that was composed for the humbler classes of society..."


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2015)

spokanedaniel said:


> I had a creative writing prof who said that the written word speaks for itself, even above the intentions of the author. In that light, I don't worry about what Mozart's or the librettist's intentions were. I choose to read the story as a tragedy because as a tragedy the victory of ignorance and stupidity over brilliant singing is less painful.
> 
> In the version I saw, the "trial by water and fire" is nothing more than Tamino playing his magical flute, and he'd have been too stupid even to do that if Pamina had not reminded him to play it. What virtue is there in passing a trial by simply using a magical device that you were given? Tamino does not even earn the flute or obtain it by some brave action or solving some difficult puzzle. He's given the flute, and then is too scatterbrained to remember to use it without being told.
> 
> ...


I find that an odd thing, to somehow remove the intentions of the author from their written word. This opera was not written as a tragedy. You could also, personally, see Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet as comedies, rather than tragedies. But that doesn't change what they are.


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## Cypress (Dec 19, 2014)

I will be watching this over the weekend. I borrowed the DVD from my public library and I look forward to my first view of this famous opera. From what I have read and heard in short Youtube viewings, I think I will fall in love with Papageno.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just been listening to Renee Jacobs Magic Flute - really is magical!


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## Giordano (Aug 10, 2014)

Cypress said:


> I will be watching this over the weekend. I borrowed the DVD from my public library and I look forward to my first view of this famous opera. From what I have read and heard in short Youtube viewings, I think I will fall in love with Papageno.


Which one did you borrow (conductor, company)?

You've become a beautiful Papagena!


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

DrMike said:


> I find that an odd thing, to somehow remove the intentions of the author from their written word.


Very often you do not know the intention of the author.



DrMike said:


> This opera was not written as a tragedy. You could also, personally, see Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet as comedies, rather than tragedies. But that doesn't change what they are.


R&J and Hamlet are tragedies because in the latter, everyone dies in the end, and in the former, the lovers die; and because the heroes had a "tragic flaw": a character flaw that led to their downfall. (As opposed to the common usage of "tragedy" to mean anything very sad.

When I reclassify Magic Flute as a tragedy, I am choosing to re-define who is the hero, and who is the villain. The Queen of the Night sings the better aria (just my opinion, of course) so I regard her as the hero. She does not die, but she is cast from a high position (she and her husband rule the day and the night) to a low position (Q of the N) due to her character flaw of cowardice: She quails at the thunder and abandons her attempt to rescue her daughter from the cultist, Sarastro.

I am comfortable with the notion that Mozart and his librettist may not have understood their own work. And with the fact that I may be a minority of one. Someone once said that no two people step into the same river. A friend of mine once said to me that no two people ever visit the same city, when we were discussing a trip we took together, and how different our experiences of the city were. Perhaps no two people listen to the same opera.

I don't care for the pompous Sarastro or his cult. I adore the passionate Queen of the Night. So for me, the opera is a tragedy.

If you experience it differently, I have no problem with that.


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## spokanedaniel (Dec 23, 2014)

Browsing about in an entirely haphazard manner, listening to different performances of the Queen's aria Der Holle Rache, I've decided I like Edda Moser the best. Perhaps, as Balalaikaboy notes above, it's the dramatic quality of her performance. She sounds really serious!


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