# Elliott Carter String Quartets - best recordings?



## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

I was interested in getting some expert options on the bets recordings of Elliott Carter's complete String Quartets after seeing an interview where Frank Zappa said they were some of his favourite works of classical music.

I was looking at a recording by Juilliard String Quartet of the complete set and also Elliott Carter: A Nonesuch Retrospective box set (although this does not include all the quartets it looks interesting)

If anyone has any thoughts on these albums or any other recommendations I would be very grateful!


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

I'd recommend the Pacifica Quartet (as would many others on the forum). Cheap, definitive performances, equal or superior to the ones you mention. As you can see from the pictures, even Carter himself approved!

I like the look of the contents of that Nonesuch Retrospective (http://www.nonesuch.com/albums/elliott-carter-a-nonesuch-retrospective), but if you take to Carter you'd probably do better collecting disks individually. It leaves out many masterworks included on other compilation albums, some of which are selling for practically nothing on the used market.

*p.s.* Interesting about Zappa.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'll second the Pacifica quartet. I haven't heard the Arditti Quartet's version of the string quartets but they are usually a go-to for contemporary string quartets and chamber music for me.


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

I've long loved the Arditti versions but IMO, the Pacifica Quartet have set a new benchmark in these works. They generally slow things down a bit allowing more of the inner detail to register to the ear. They also seem to clarify things making it easier to recognize the various harmonic and rhythmic interrelationships. Great sound engineering too!


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2015)

I've got the Pacifica but I can't offer a comparison with any others. I too guess that Carter being photographed with them must be indicative?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

FPwtc said:


> I was interested in getting some expert options on the bets recordings of Elliott Carter's complete String Quartets after seeing an interview where Frank Zappa said they were some of his favourite works of classical music.
> 
> I was looking at a recording by Juilliard String Quartet of the complete set and also Elliott Carter: A Nonesuch Retrospective box set (although this does not include all the quartets it looks interesting)
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts on these albums or any other recommendations I would be very grateful!


Composers Quartet. There's an earlier Juilliard floating around on the web which you may enjoy more than the one in the set, I did. I haven't explored 5 very much, and I've not even heard the new Juilliard. I'm not sure how much I like the music in 5 in fact. I'd be interested in specific recommendations about it myself.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I've heard the Julliards and that is my only complete set; I have one of the Pacifica albums (2, 3, 4) too. 

Sadly, I'm not personally qualified to evaluate them, but I'd guess they're both world-class at the very least.

If my own ridiculously little opinion matters, I was going to get the other Pacifica album, then I got the Julliard set, and I feel satisfied for now. I listen almost exclusively to the Juilliard.


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## GioCar (Oct 30, 2013)

I am satisfied with the Julliard set










The booklet is very good as well.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I can second the Naxos Pacifica Quartet recordings. i need hear more from them.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

You can't go too wrong with any of them, though the Arditti are less available and pricey, and there's a considerable recording gap 'tween JSQ No. 4 and No.5.

Pacifica! And I wish this group (and others) would start filling more SQ holes in Modern/Contemporary.:tiphat:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I was shopping for a set two years ago and found them all to be out of print and selling for ridiculous prices, but I wanted these Carter works in my collection badly enough, so I took a gamble on the inexpensive Pacifica Quartet pair of albums.

I rank them very highly among the other Carter recordings I have :tiphat: Now, when I look at recordings and see the name Pacifica, it means something to me.


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback! I will probably go for the Pacifica as they are inexpensive and then expand to the Julliard if I enjoy them!


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Is this is the earlier recording you mentioned?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Carter-Stri...4197&sr=8-7&keywords=juilliard+quartet+carter


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Yes Zappa is a fascinating entry way to lots of great music for me! I asked here a while back about other influences other members new about who influenced Zappa and received a lot of good information. The Carter thing I found on a Youtube video where he is being interviewed, I will try and find it.


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Blancrocher said:


> View attachment 62201
> View attachment 62202
> 
> 
> ...


Do you mind recommending a couple of other of Carter's key works I may enjoy after the quartets?


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

FPwtc said:


> Do you mind recommending a couple of other of Carter's key works I may enjoy after the quartets?























Sure. The following are probably my most frequently played Carter albums (pictured above): Cello Concerto, etc. (Sherry/Knussen); Rosen in the piano music (also Oppens & Aimard); Piano Concerto, etc. (Prausnitz/Leinsdorf)

Other popular works include the Cello Sonata, Symphony for 3 Orchestras, and Oboe Concerto. I'm very partial to the late Double Trio.

The following is a complete list, almost all of which has been recorded, in case you like what you've heard and want to explore further: http://elliottcarter.com/works.html


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

FPwtc said:


> Do you mind recommending a couple of other of Carter's key works I may enjoy after the quartets?


I know you didn't ask me, but I hope you won't mind too much if I mention this one:

View attachment 62407


That's a really good disk!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Composer's Quartet of 1 & 2.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Since I am a Carter fanatic and since there are not that many recordings out there (not like the Beethoven), I am familiar with all of the major recordings (I have the Julliard and Pacifica in my collection). They are all excellent. Like others I would give an edge to the Pacifica.

As far as other Carter recordings one of my favorites is:






​
The _Clarinet Concerto_ is one of my favorites.

Deutsche Grammophon rereleased this recording in 2013:






​


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

FPwtc said:


> Do you mind recommending a couple of other of Carter's key works I may enjoy after the quartets?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Apart from the quartets.

Syringa
A mirror on which to dwell
Night Fantasies
Penthode
Double Concerto
Concerto for Orchestra

There's lots of others, that's off the top of my head. Try this CD maybe


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## FPwtc (Dec 3, 2014)

Thanks very much!


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

That Bridge disc with the ASKO Concerto, Cello Concerto, etc. is stunningly good! Don't hesitate with that one.


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## marinetti (May 22, 2017)

Andolink said:


> That Bridge disc with the ASKO Concerto, Cello Concerto, etc. is stunningly good! Don't hesitate with that one.


Just did. 5 years later. You are right!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

My top Carter CD along with the Bridge volume already mentioned. Also love the Levine CD of Carter, Schuller, Babbitt, and Cage. I have not heard his quartets 4-5. I have the Apex CD with the wind concertos. It's also available in the Boulez Erato 14 CD box. His chamber pieces written in the early 50s released on Nonesuch are also recommended. I have Aimard's recording of Night Fantasies but would like to hear Charles Rosen.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm using the first bar of the 3rd quartet to judge the recordings, and I can say the Pacifica is the worst, and the Juilliard is easily the best, with the Arditti in the middle. The Juilliard rehearsed the 3rd quartet for a year before they premiered, and spent a lot of time on the opening bar alone. You can hear differences between the 3 with the Juilliard being by far the most precise. The Pacifica just winged through it haphazardly it sounds.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm using the first bar of the 3rd quartet to judge the recordings, and I can say the Pacifica is the worst, and the Juilliard is easily the best, with the Arditti in the middle. The Juilliard rehearsed the 3rd quartet for a year before they premiered, and spent a lot of time on the opening bar alone. You can hear differences between the 3 with the Juilliard being by far the most precise. The Pacifica just winged through it haphazardly it sounds.


This is the similar to my conclusion generally, Pacifica worst, Juilliard very satisfactory, I have hardly given any time to Arditti.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Arditti for me, but then again I'm biased as a late dear friend of mine was a founder member of the quartet. I remember chatting to him about how he coped with the rhythmic complexities over a few beers....happy days. Third from left in the terrible jumper.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> This is the similar to my conclusion generally, Pacifica worst, Juilliard very satisfactory, I have hardly given any time to Arditti.


The Pacfica was praised to the sky on the first two pages of this thread (and as far as I know everywhere else), until Phil made his negative comment, based on one bar of the five quartets; then you. Their complete Shostakovich set has also been highly praised. Curious. I wonder if Carter had heard them before he agreed to be photographed for the cover?

Here's a quote from Steve Hicken writing for Sequenza21.com, May 2009 (a cite devoted to contemporary classical music): "The Third Quartet (1971) remains one of Carter's most complex structures, so much so that even some fans of the composer find it merely "complicated". I like the piece quite a bit, and the performance here is a revelation-the players bring out the lines in each duo more clearly than I've ever heard before. I think this reading of the Quartet will cause some to take a new listen to it."

To be honest, I am not qualified to judge any performances of these works, they are just too complex. But as I said, the Pacifica's recordings have been widely praised.

Is the older Julliard recording of quartets 1-4 included in their box set of all five? Or were those new recordings of 1-4?

I also only have the Arditti of #5 on their "chamber music" set. But their recording of 1-4 is OOP (used copies go for around $100), and it's not available for streaming.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> The Pacfica was praised to the sky on the first two pages of this thread (and as far as I know everywhere else), until Phil made his negative comment, based on one bar of the five quartets; then you. Their complete Shostakovich set has also been highly praised. Curious. I wonder if Carter had heard them before he agreed to be photographed for the cover?
> 
> Here's a quote from Steve Hicken writing for Sequenza21.com, May 2009 (a cite devoted to contemporary classical music): "The Third Quartet (1971) remains one of Carter's most complex structures, so much so that even some fans of the composer find it merely "complicated". I like the piece quite a bit, and the performance here is a revelation-the players bring out the lines in each duo more clearly than I've ever heard before. I think this reading of the Quartet will cause some to take a new listen to it."
> 
> ...


I think the 5 is particularly successful with Julliard and particularly unsuccessful with Pacifica. I don't think Julliard re-recorded the first four. I'm quite curious about Arditti and I'll listen to them next time I'm in the mood for this sort of music.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I enjoy both the Pacifica and the Julliard recordings and am not so interested in anointing one and trashing the other (let alone of the basis of a few bars of music!). Both sets have given me a lot of pleasure. Sometimes comparisons between performances can show you why you didn't get on with one and lead to you revising your view of the work. But I don't think that is the case here. I have lived less long with the Arditti.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> I enjoy both the Pacifica and the Julliard recordings and am not so interested in anointing one and trashing the other (let alone of the basis of a few bars of music!). Both sets have given me a lot of pleasure. Sometimes comparisons between performances can show you why you didn't get on with one and lead to you revising your view of the work. But I don't think that is the case here. I have lived less long with the Arditti.


Who said it was on only a few bars? It was on only exactly 1 bar!  (I recreated the score on some notation program and compared the playback). But that was the part with the highest density, and even without comparing I thought the Pacifica was reckless, and then it definitely glossed over that impactful first bar. I read the reviews, and some praised the Pacifica over the Juilliard, saying the Juilliard was tense at times, but isn't that the point of the music? It didn't seem the Juilliard got the praise for being more faithful to the score, and for the fruit of the hard work in rehearsing, that was why I was kind of sympathetic to them.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Whoever wrote that the Juilliard are tense at times obviously hadn't listened to the recording. They are tense at times, but they are _always _tense at times. It's a reviewer who hadn't even listened to the first bar of the third, probably paid $50 for his miserable copy, probably hates music.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

sdv/.xsdzv ;ldxm vxd;l mdx; mdx; m


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Count me as another major fan of Carter. I own the Pacifica recordings and like them quite a bit.

I also own the Nonesuch recording of the Composers Quartet performing the 1st and 2nd on vinyl, from 1970. This is a fantastic recording. I wish they did the 3rd and 4th.

I think Carter's orchestrations are among the best of the 20th century, so I will always recommend his orchestral music.

Concerto for Orchestra
Piano Concerto
Violin Concerto
Variations for Orchestra
Three Illusions for Orchestra
Three Occasions for Orchestra
The Minitour

I can understand Zappa's love for Carter, due to Carter's masterful use of percussion.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Who said it was on only a few bars? It was on only exactly 1 bar!  (I recreated the score on some notation program and compared the playback). But that was the part with the highest density, and even without comparing I thought the Pacifica was reckless, and then it definitely glossed over that impactful first bar. I read the reviews, and some praised the Pacifica over the Juilliard, saying the Juilliard was tense at times, but isn't that the point of the music? It didn't seem the Juilliard got the praise for being more faithful to the score, and for the fruit of the hard work in rehearsing, that was why I was kind of sympathetic to them.


I listened to both and thought the Julliard was tentative whereas the Pacifica was robust. I've got the scores to these quartets and will look at the third when I have more time.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I don't know how often the Julliard performs these works, but the Pacifica makes them a regular part of their program, performing all five regularly. This would indicate to me more familiarity and confidence with the music.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Julliard toured performing the 5th Qt in the late 90s (was able to see them), not sure of the others.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The 5th quartet seems to me a real swansong, by the way, I'm quite surprised how much I like it, at first I said to myself he must be too old, past it, but I like it -- I also like Prokofiev's 9th piano sonata, Babbitt's 6th quartet, the Schoenberg string trio . . . swansongs all.

The one I can't find a way to enjoy is Bartok's 6th quartet.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Phil loves classical said:


> Who said it was on only a few bars? It was on only exactly 1 bar!  (I recreated the score on some notation program and compared the playback). But that was the part with the highest density, and even without comparing I thought the Pacifica was reckless, and then it definitely glossed over that impactful first bar. I read the reviews, and some praised the Pacifica over the Juilliard, saying the Juilliard was tense at times, but isn't that the point of the music? It didn't seem the Juilliard got the praise for being more faithful to the score, and for the fruit of the hard work in rehearsing, that was why I was kind of sympathetic to them.


What you heard is what you heard and I guess we all listen in different ways as well as having different tastes. Reckless sounds a bit exciting! But I do agree that the Julliard have clearly worked a lot harder at their recordings.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I just listened to the first movement of the 3rd quartet by the Pacifica Quartet, and while it is difficult for me to follow the score perfectly, I was able to determine that I did not notice any glaring lapses from what is indicated in the score. Without knowing precisely what some heard that departed from the score, and I may have missed, I see no reason to quarrel with the many positive reviews of these performances.

In any event, with so few recordings available, to exclude the Pacifica's set from consideration because of a few naysayers I think would be a mistake.

The 3rd quartet has always been the one I was most interested in, although this is the first time I've listened while following the score, it remains probably my favorite.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Here are clips from the first bar for the 'perfect' as notated version generated by computer at 1/2 speed, and the performed versions that I also slowed down the 3 versions to half speed with my audio editor.

First is the perfect version, 2nd is Juilliard's, 3rd Arditti's, and last is Pacifica's. Notice the huge drop in fidelity (not the audio kind) in the Pacifica's.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Phil loves classical said:


> Here are clips from the first bar for the 'perfect' as notated version generated by computer at 1/2 speed, and the performed versions that I also slowed down the 3 versions to half speed with my audio editor.
> 
> First is the perfect version, 2nd is Juilliard's, 3rd Arditti's, and last is Pacifica's. Notice the huge drop in fidelity (not the audio kind) in the Pacifica's.


Interesting.

However, the score is marked "quasi rubato sempre" for Duo I and could yield different results than your perfect computer version.

What notation software did you use?


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

I have heard both the Juilliard and the Pacifica recordings many times and I definitely prefer the latter ones myself, but wouldn't want to be without either one. The more complete sets we have of this wonderful music the better.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Here are clips from the first bar for the 'perfect' as notated version generated by computer at 1/2 speed, and the performed versions that I also slowed down the 3 versions to half speed with my audio editor.
> 
> First is the perfect version, 2nd is Juilliard's, 3rd Arditti's, and last is Pacifica's. Notice the huge drop in fidelity (not the audio kind) in the Pacifica's.


Cool, thanks for putting this together - always thought Julliard did the best job of phrasing the opening gestures. The opening is relatively simple - 3 vs 5 in Duo2 against an 8th or 16th note pulse in Duo1 - it gets more complicated later


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

SanAntone said:


> Interesting.
> 
> However, the score is marked "quasi rubato sempre" for Duo I and could yield different results than your perfect computer version.
> 
> What notation software did you use?


I noticed that marking too. So Arditti's still reasonable to me, although I haven't really sorted out which duo I'm hearing is which. But the Pacifica seems really kind of off. The intonation isn't correct in places, as are the accents, and the rhythms. Almost a whole different passage. I was using Musescore.


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