# Fastest way to improve



## jani

So i recently got a surge of motivation to start to play my keyboard what i bought like 9 months ago, but i haven't played it for 8 months because my guitar has kept me busy. So could you give me some tips what is the fastest way to develop a good technique ( Yea i know that there aren't any magic potions or spells, i know that i have to practice hard).
At the moment i am playing Hanon exercises and some random chromatic and arpeggio runs.
Also could you recommend me some good pieces to learn.
I can read music.

:tiphat:


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## Ravndal

I have no idea of your skill. I assume you're a beginner, so you should check out nocturne no.4 by Edvard Grieg. It's wonderful to play, and the rhythmic can be quite tough.

only clip i could find on youtube that is not total crap






it is much tougher to play than it sounds like

Or maybe Suite No.7 In G Minor, HWV 432. VI Passacaglia

By Handel






also fun to play.

I would recommend you to start with Grieg. Also, get yourself a good piano teacher.

And keep doing hanon exercises, they should be a part of your warm up before you start playing.

I would recommend doing this hanon exercise for warm up





 do it slow, first with each hand separate, then both. make sure you have your fingers on the keys at all time, and play one key at the time.


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## jani

Yea, i am a absolute beginner. My main goal is to be able to play Beethoven piano sonatas.


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## Ravndal

Chopin Prelude E Minor.






This must be perfect for you now.


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## Mun

I'm not sure if there is a fast way, but if you find yourself having to force yourself to play rather than wanting and simply playing because you enjoy playing the piano. Then I wouldn't recommend you continuing, but if you genuinely want to play then I'd really be patient.

When I was starting out (with no teacher which I'm assuming you're going to teach yourself as well) I simply put in the hours, I would spend hours and hours on the most simplest sonatas even though I did suck but I kept playing because I enjoyed playing the piano.

If you already know all the basics then I would recommend you practise playing Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata (Since you're a faan of his). It's really one of those pieces where the difficulty level is overrated.

If you can't be bothered reading the sheet music or it's too difficult to learn how to read the sheet music I suggest you go on youtube and learn how to Play Moonlight Sonata from a tutorial video, and then once you've learnt say the first part of it I would start playing it whilst learning how to follow the sheet music.

The first 2 minutes aren't difficult, it's quite easy and can be taught to a beginner (considering that he's choosing to learn the song rather than read the sheet music) and you'll also sound like a total pro because it sounds aboslutely amazing.

Learning Piano Sonata No. 16 (the first movement) by Mozart would also be a good idea, that piece is the one that really helped improve my piano skills. Start with playing both hands seperately (I spent atleast an hour for each hand a day, but you can practise thirty minutes each hand a day instead if you do find yourself struggling and stressing out).

These two sonatas aren't that difficult to learn (Although it will take a while) but will be absolutely rewarding when you learn how to play them because they do make you sound like an absolute pro at playing the piano.


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## Ravndal

Actually. The best way to improve, is to get a decent piano teacher. Be active and engaged during the lessons, and the teacher will automatically like you, if it's a good teacher.

then it's all good


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## Mun

Ravndal said:


> Actually. The best way to improve, is to get a decent piano teacher. Be active and engaged during the lessons, and the teacher will automatically like you, if it's a good teacher.
> 
> then it's all good


Agreed, But I'm assuming he is teaching himself since he said he hadn't played for 8 months after getting it 9 months ago. SoI thought I'd try giving him advice when having no teacher.


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## Ravndal

It's nice and all  But if he wants to play beethoven sonatas beautifully, he should take some piano lessons ^^


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## Mun

Ravndal said:


> It's nice and all  But if he wants to play beethoven sonatas beautifully, he should take some piano lessons ^^


I would have to respectfully disagree, I think one of the most important part of being able to play a sonata beautifully is dedication. Which includes putting in the hours and learning the specific areas you need to learn in order to play properly.

I'm self taught and when I auditioned for WAAPA which is am area at my university that allows you to study music and gain a degree and you must pass the auditions in order to be accepted. (This is in Australia)

I had no where near as much formal experience as the other people auditioning and yet I received one of the best responses to my performance and said that my performance was one of the most moving he had ever heard.

I can in fact play better than most of the people I know who did have formal training in piano. (Although I would like to add that I'd probably be a lot better if I did receive training)

Again, He will be able to successfully teach himself if he has the dedication and love for the piano.


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## Ravndal

of course it needs dedication and time. you cant just get a teacher, and expect to be a pro the day after. but a good teacher can give him guidance, and show him the right path.

anyways, your entitled to your opinion, and i mine. and in a very rare case, a good pianist can bloom out of nothing by him/herself. that doesnt mean jani will (dont worry, we have faith in you!), just because you are a "rare case".

And i don't know if you have read this, but i agree with almost every single word (except; brendel, ashkenazy, barenboim)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2002/sep/05/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures


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## Mun

Ravndal said:


> of course it needs dedication and time. you cant just get a teacher, and expect to be a pro the day after. but a good teacher can give him guidance, and show him the right path.
> 
> anyways, your entitled to your opinion, and i mine. and in a very rare case, a good pianist can bloom out of nothing by him/herself. that doesnt mean jani will (dont worry, we have faith in you!), just because you are a "rare case".
> 
> And i don't know if you have read this, but i agree with almost every single word (except; brendel, ashkenazy, barenboim)
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2002/sep/05/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures


I think we may be arguing the same point but debating on how to get there differently.

I'm using you're saying that people who are self-taught with much dedication will probably only get the technicalities correct but won't be able to grasp a good understanding of music?

And that a teacher will be able to guide you not only on the technicalities but help you understand music?

Is that what you're trynig to get at?

To be fair even though I'm self taught, I did study music in highschool and university.


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## Ravndal

Mun said:


> I think we may be arguing the same point but debating on how to get there differently.
> 
> I'm using you're saying that people who are self-taught with much dedication will probably only get the technicalities correct but won't be able to grasp a good understanding of music?
> 
> And that a teacher will be able to guide you not only on the technicalities but help you understand music?
> 
> Is that what you're trynig to get at?
> 
> To be fair even though I'm self taught, I did study music in highschool and university.


Correct!

And i also recommend getting a teacher, so you can learn how to approach each note, and use your fingers/wrist correctly. Because if your self teaching something totally wrong for years you will have a prob later. And possibly strain/hurt your wrist.

Which can then lead to arthritis


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## Mun

Ravndal said:


> Correct!
> 
> And i also recommend getting a teacher, so you can learn how to approach each note, and use your fingers/wrist correctly. Because if your self teaching something totally wrong for years you will have a prob later. And possibly strain/hurt your wrist.
> 
> Which can then lead to arthritis


I'd like to say sorry for originally misinterpreting what you were saying at the beginning of this conversation. I thought the fingering (no dirty references intended) would be a problem, which is why when teaching yourself you look up these things. You could look up all the correct fingering all on the internet. One hundred years ago, yes I do think you wouldn't be able to teach yourself properly but because we now have the "internet" we can now learn the areas you referred to very easily, there are videos on learning how to play the piano and how to approach certain notes and what fingers you should use to avoid hurting your wrist and developing arthritis in the future.


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## Ravndal

Well, you didn't misinterpret entirely. I still think the fastest way to improve for a beginner, is a teacher who can inspire and learn away basic stuff. I believe it's easier to have someone say it right to your face, and showing examples, than searching around the internet and try to learn everything by reading.


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## Mun

Ravndal said:


> Well, you didn't misinterpret entirely. I still think the fastest way to improve for a beginner, is a teacher who can inspire and learn away basic stuff. I believe it's easier to have someone say it right to your face, and showing examples, than searching around the internet and try to learn everything by reading.


*
One hundred percent* agree with you, I use to spend hours and hours (Serious) every night and stay up to 2-3 am practising the piano because I wasn't learning as fast as a should've been because I didn't haev a teacher.

Sorry if everyone misinterpreted me and I made it sound like I was saying it was better to teach yourself.

I'll say it now, At all costs avoid teaching yourself and if there is any slight possibility of having a teacher teach you piano. THAN get a teacher, teaching yourself is possibly the most difficult and worst route you can take when learning the piano.

The chances of you being self-taught and being better than a person who's had a teacher and formal training is EXTREMELY slim.

There are so many things you can learn from a teacher very quickly than learn on your own.

When I first started out, it took me to learn some areas in piano maybe over an hour to learn when I could've learned it in half an hour through a teacher.

Again, I repeat. I do not recommend anyone trying to learning the piano by themselves.


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## sclive

Interesting thread. Another way to say it, often the intuitive way people try to solve problems at the piano is really inefficient-lots of wasted time. You might call a Teacher a "Piano Problem Solver".


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## Trommel

Get a teacher who can relate to your prior musical experience, present expertise, and goals.

Practice does not make perfect.

Practice makes permanent.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

Learn theory.

Don't try to go too fast lest you injure your muscles and soft tissue.

Warm up.

Slow and clean beats fast & sloppy every time.

Have fun!


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## googlebordello

There are a couple good pieces for beginning Beethoven, but I wouldn't say Moonlight is one of them, even though it gets handed to lots of beginners. While relatively easy to _play_ (for two minutes), it's maddeningly hard to get _right._ Maybe Moonshine & I just have a particularly tumultuous relationship. Either way, I'd say it's more fun to blast off your career in Beethoven interpretation with something louder!

I highly recommend starting with the bagatelles. Most of the seven bagatelles, Op. 33, are a good mix of friendly and challenging. And since they're short, you get more immediate gratification. Try No. 3 in F Major. All of them are available in the public domain, too: thanks, IMSLP.

And of course, there's always bagatelle No. 25 in A minor. Everyone who has ever taken a piano lesson can play that.


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## Sonata

How's your progress Jani?


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## jani

Sonata said:


> How's your progress Jani?


Bad, i realized that if i want to achieve my musical goals i need to get my guitar playing to a level i can be proud of ( Phrasing, technique, writing music) but this "level" moves higher as i progress. So i had to abandon my keyboard training.


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## realdealblues

I took Piano lessons for about 4 years and couldn't stand playing the stupid little kids songs so I quit. I have since forgotten 90% of everything I learned which I am kind of sad about all these years later. 

I have played guitar for 20 years though and have a great ear. I can pick out notes and chords without having to really figure them out. I can hear the note and go, that's an E in my head.

I still like to play keyboard though, but it's usually used on songs from the Beatles songbook (Hey Jude, Let It Be, etc).

I'm completely self taught when it comes to guitar and since I can't remember much from my Piano Lessons days I make it up as I go. 

If you still want to play your keyboard though I recommend learning some of the songs you know on guitar and transposing them to keyboard. Something as simple as John Lennon's Imagine can keep you interested and you gradually develop better technique and the ability to play smoother and faster. I can play most of the 1st movement of Moonlight Sonata fairly smoothly, but I realized I would never be able to play any of the fast movements without practicing 8 hours a day like I did with guitar as a kid and I just don't have the dedication to do that. So, I'm content to play and sing Hey Jude on stage instead. At least I get paid for that and I can always monkey around with Beethoven at home for fun.


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## PetrB

The best advice for those working without a teacher -- the only worthwhile advice which includes positive result -- is to get a good teacher.

_*'Teaching yourself' is literally taking lessons from someone who knows zipnada about the instrument, how to play it, technique, the best progression of material for the individual student, and leaves you without an informed expert to observe what you are and aren't doing correctly.*_ That leaves you in a position of -- more than likely -- repeatedly doing something incorrectly. Something learned incorrectly takes twenty times as much effort and time to undo than if one learned it correctly to begin with, such is the known dynamic of how we learn.

It also leaves you without someone who knows to ask all those questions.

I do not know when that 'teach yourself' rage began, but it has, so far, yielded no spectacular results in anyone I have heard of.

Seriously, the fastest way to improve is find a really good teacher who knows their pedagogy, and you will have the best guide to the most rapid growth possible for you.

Otherwise, sincerely but with huge doubts as to any worthwhile progress, I wish you luck.


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## Andreas

As a self-teaching keyboard (alas, not piano) student, I can recommend these great easy beginner pieces:

Bach, Well-tempered Clavier I: Prelude in C major
Händel, Keyboard suite in d minor HWV 437: Sarabande
Mozart, Piano sonata in A major K 331: theme of the first movement
Bach, Notebook for Anna Magdalena: Aria in d minor BWV 515
Ligeti, Musica ricercata: second movement
Beethoven, Piano sonata no. 32: theme of the Arietta


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## Sonata

jani said:


> Bad, i realized that if i want to achieve my musical goals i need to get my guitar playing to a level i can be proud of ( Phrasing, technique, writing music) but this "level" moves higher as i progress. So i had to abandon my keyboard training.


Sorry to hear it. But it sounds like you're making the right decision for your personal goals, so that's a good thing. :tiphat:


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## Sonata

Andreas said:


> As a self-teaching keyboard (alas, not piano) student, I can recommend these great easy beginner pieces:
> 
> Bach, Well-tempered Clavier I: Prelude in C major
> Händel, Keyboard suite in d minor HWV 437: Sarabande
> Mozart, Piano sonata in A major K 331: theme of the first movement
> Bach, Notebook for Anna Magdalena: Aria in d minor BWV 515
> Ligeti, Musica ricercata: second movement
> Beethoven, Piano sonata no. 32: theme of the Arietta


Sweet, I've not yet attempted a classical piece. I'll have to look these ones up.


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