# Grand Champion Round: Wehe Mein Mann> Rysanek, Studer and Steber



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

We have strong winners in each contest. Who did you like best? I am anxious to begin my next really big contest.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I'm getting a message saying that the version with Rysanek isn't available.

I haven't listened yet, but I will do tomorrow and I can't wait!

N.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

I cannot abide Rysanek so for me it’s between the two Americans. And my vote goes to the superlative/splendid Studer. Not that Steber was chopped liver.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> I'm getting a message saying that the version with Rysanek isn't available.
> 
> I haven't listened yet, but I will do tomorrow and I can't wait!
> 
> N.






Try this


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I loved all three but I see a difference in Steber's from the other two that stands out and once again gives me the goosebumps the others do not.
I do think that seeing Studer live seems to give her an unfair edge because one can see the drama unfolding before one's eyes but Steber, bless her heart cannot be undone.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Like ALT, I have no difficulty eliminating Rysanek from consideration. Like nina foresti, I avoided watching the video of Studer so as to experience the singing unbiased. 

The choice between Studer and Steber isn't simple. Studer excels for sheer dramatic intensity; it's a live performance, and sounds like it, with Studer taking chances and going for broke. Steber has the more distinguished instrument and uses it masterfully, but doesn't match Studer's wild intensity. The poor sound of her recording undoubtedly undercuts her performance, the effect of the scene depending at least as much on the orchestra as on the singer. These factors make for an apples and oranges situation, and I'll have to refrain from voting. But it may be that if Steber were recorded in the theater with first-rate sound I'd choose her.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I liked all three and I have good memories of hearing Rysanek in the theater. I didn’t know Steber sang this music until she was included in one of the rounds in this contest. Being used to listen through recording muck, the Steber version didn’t bother me much (is it live or just a wretched transfer?). I liked her version best.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I liked all three and I have good memories of hearing Rysanek in the theater. I didn't know Steber sang this music until she was included in one of the rounds in this contest. Being used to listen through recording muck, the Steber version didn't bother me much (is it live or just a wretched transfer?). I liked her version best.


Someone on YouTube says it was a live concert.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

The Steber is not from a concert but, rather, from one of her performances in Munich under Böhm, 1953. For those of you "conflicted" by audiovisual vs audio-only, I will make it easy on you. Here is *Studer* in audio-only, live performance outtakes from the work (not with Solti and not in Salzburg either). From the 'video' description:

_In-house recording
Act I scene (00:12); Act II scene (13:32); Act III scene (26:16)
Folks, this is a festival of blazing and tremendous top notes. But it's much more than that, naturally. Worth repeating: the stuff that separates the wheat from the chaff, the women from the girls, the artist from the pedestrian. 
Act I and II images are of the soprano as the Figaro Countess. Act III image is of her as the Empress._


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Someone on YouTube says it was a live concert.


Oh, thank you! I know she had a Strauss LP at some point.

I just read the above post, posted at the same time as mine.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Studer nails this. Her voice was perfectly suited to this role, just as it was to Chrysothemis. She also delivers Strauss' word setting with great artistry. Her version is going to be very hard to beat.

Rysanek too has just the right voice for this (and coached Studer, she is also Herodias on Studer's recording of Salome). However, she isn't as committed to the drama in this recording whilst singing wonderfully.

Steber is hampered by bad sound, but listening through the aural smog what can be discerned. I very much like the dark quality of her voice, but it's not eight for this part. She would be better off as the Nurse or Klyteamnestra. It's sung well and with much feeling, but she doesn't have the desperate emotional intensity of Studer.

This is no contest. Studer is streets ahead of the competition.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ALT said:


> The Steber is not from a concert but, rather, from one of her performances in Munich under Böhm, 1953. For those of you "conflicted" by audiovisual vs audio-only, I will make it easy on you. Here is *Studer* in audio-only, live performance outtakes from the work (not with Solti and not in Salzburg either). From the 'video' description:
> 
> _In-house recording
> Act I scene (00:12); Act II scene (13:32); Act III scene (26:16)
> ...


I didn't see the issue with this as a video as when I played it she was abstracted and not singing with the words. Very artistic as opposed to a standard literal video. It was like they just spliced her image in occasionally from what I saw. Perhaps I made a mistake.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Completely at a loss to score this one. And this time I don't want to go back. I have the impression, now how do I articulate and score it in this game that is not really what the listening is all about but which is without question, so much fun! First time hearing Steber and for some reason I did not expect that great a singer...not sure why but I didn't. This forum is making a Cheryl Studer fan out of me and Rysanek is a lifelong love! I think all of them, with their own pluses and minuses, perform the scene wonderfully, by "all time greatest" standards. Not saying they're the greatest, I'm saying I can't imagine a league above them! So I'm not choosing one over the others, I'm just defining myself the way most of us do...true to our loves! Leonie!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Completely at a loss to score this one. And this time I don't want to go back. I have the impression, now how do I articulate and score it in this game that is not really what the listening is all about but which is without question, so much fun! First time hearing Steber and for some reason I did not expect that great a singer...not sure why but I didn't. This forum is making a Cheryl Studer fan out of me and Rysanek is a lifelong love! I think all of them, with their own pluses and minuses, perform the scene wonderfully, by "all time greatest" standards. Not saying they're the greatest, I'm saying I can't imagine a league above them! So I'm not choosing one over the others, I'm just defining myself the way most of us do...true to our loves! Leonie!


Although I am decidedly a strong Steber fan I very much respect your choice. The reason is because in both their cases (which Studer lacks)they are both very recognizable. I call that a plus.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> Steber is hampered by bad sound, but listening through the aural smog what can be discerned. I very much like the dark quality of her voice, but it's not eight for this part. She would be better off as the Nurse or Klyteamnestra.


The Nurse and Klytemnestra are for mezzo and contralto. Strauss chose Schumann-Heink to premiere the latter. Why do you think Steber's voice is wrong for the Empress? She takes in the requirements of the music easily - the tone is rich and full, and the high notes are brilliant - while Studer, though she handles it very well, sounds pushed to her limit, and Rysanek sounds...well, like Rysanek.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The Nurse and Klytemnestra are for mezzo and contralto. Strauss chose Schumann-Heink to premiere the latter. Why do you think Steber's voice is wrong for the Empress? She takes in the requirements of the music easily - the tone is rich and full, and the high notes are brilliant - while Studer, though she handles it very well, sounds pushed to her limit, and Rysanek sounds...well, like Rysanek.


In short I think it is wrong for the Empress for pretty much the same reason I didn't think Callas' was right for Liu. The long version is that the Empress is a lighter role than the Farbarin, Elektra or even Salome (but Salome also works with a lighter voice such as Stratas, at least on film, or Bystrom, the latter on stage). A good Empress should also make a good Chrysothemis, Sieglinde and Elizabeth. I'm not familiar enough with Steber and her voice to say whether she would have been better suited to mezzo rep, but her Empress reminds me of Varnay's soprano roles and how she was better suited to Klytaemnestra at the end of her career. That said, even if we stick with soprano roles, Steber might have made a better Farbarin than an Empress.

N.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

The Conte said:


> In short I think it is wrong for the Empress for pretty much the same reason I didn't think Callas' was right for Liu. The long version is that the Empress is a lighter role than the Farbarin, Elektra or even Salome (but Salome also works with a lighter voice such as Stratas, at least on film, or Bystrom, the latter on stage). A good Empress should also make a good Chrysothemis, Sieglinde and Elizabeth. I'm not familiar enough with Steber and her voice to say whether she would have been better suited to mezzo rep, but her Empress reminds me of Varnay's soprano roles and how she was better suited to Klytaemnestra at the end of her career. That said, even if we stick with soprano roles, Steber might have made a better Farbarin than an Empress.
> 
> N.


I love Alessandra Marc but she did the Empress in Berlin and was booed. I wonder if it was because her voice was too big. She was noted for her high notes, so she should have been able to handle the tessitura.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> The Nurse and Klytemnestra are for mezzo and contralto. Strauss chose Schumann-Heink to premiere the latter. Why do you think Steber's voice is wrong for the Empress? She takes in the requirements of the music easily - the tone is rich and full, and the high notes are brilliant - while Studer, though she handles it very well, sounds pushed to her limit, and Rysanek sounds...well, like Rysanek.


I wish there was a way to include the conte's post and Woodducks post because it's the progression of thought about Steber's voice I find intriguing. I too had a response when you said Steber for Clytemnestra and the nurse and it was that even though those are substantial rolls… Schumann-Heink clearly not singing any comprimarios...It still felt like Steber possesses too much voice to be cast that way. I'd imagine that Schuman-Heink simply couldn't sing the other roles. But I can't imagine the production....who would sing Electra and Chrysothemis and have Steber showing up for Klytemnestra? I'm guessing you're saying, if you put questions like that aside, in your minds ear Steber just sounds perfect for those other roles.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ALT said:


> The Steber is not from a concert but, rather, from one of her performances in Munich under Böhm, 1953.


We can tell that the Steber is not from a staged performance of the opera by the fact that the music has been given a concert ending.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The Conte said:


> In short I think it is wrong for the Empress for pretty much the same reason I didn't think Callas' was right for Liu. The long version is that the Empress is a lighter role than the Farbarin, Elektra or even Salome (but Salome also works with a lighter voice such as Stratas, at least on film, or Bystrom, the latter on stage). A good Empress should also make a good Chrysothemis, Sieglinde and Elizabeth. I'm not familiar enough with Steber and her voice to say whether she would have been better suited to mezzo rep, but her Empress reminds me of Varnay's soprano roles and how she was better suited to Klytaemnestra at the end of her career. That said, even if we stick with soprano roles, Steber might have made a better Farbarin than an Empress.
> 
> N.


You need to listen to more Steber. If Callas is "wrong" for Liu (certainly a subjective judgment to some degree) it's because her vocal timbre is too dark and complex to suggest the one-dimensional innocence of the character, and because she isn't good at floating high notes as Liu is required to. I see no parallel to the present case; there's nothing in Steber's timbre that would make the Empress unsuitable for her, nor are there any technical qualities in the music that would tax or intimidate her. She was also most definitely a soprano and not a mezzo; any parallel to Varnay, with her loose vibrato and high notes that could scrape the paint off a battleship, escapes my comprehension.

Steber's repertoire encompassed a wide spectrum from the "lyric" to the "dramatic," including Mozart (the Countess, Konstanze, Fiordiligi, Donna Anna, Pamina), Gounod (Marguerite), Charpentier (Louise), Verdi (Violetta, Elisabetta, Desdemona), Puccini (Manon Lescaut, Tosca, Butterfly, Minnie), Wagner (Eva, Elsa), Strauss (Arabella, the Marschallin), Berg (Marie) and Barber (Vanessa).

I've only recently come to appreciate Steber's versatility and excellence. Check her out on YouTube. You'll be glad you did.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> You need to listen to more Steber. If Callas is "wrong" for Liu (certainly a subjective judgment to some degree) it's because her vocal timbre is too dark and complex to suggest the one-dimensional innocence of the character, and because she isn't good at floating high notes as Liu is required to. I see no parallel to the present case; there's nothing in Steber's timbre that would make the Empress unsuitable for her, nor are there any technical qualities in the music that would tax or intimidate her. She was also most definitely a soprano and not a mezzo; any parallel to Varnay, with her loose vibrato and high notes that could scrape the paint off a battleship, escapes my comprehension.
> 
> Steber's repertoire encompassed a wide spectrum from the "lyric" to the "dramatic," including Mozart (the Countess, Konstanze, Fiordiligi, Donna Anna, Pamina), Gounod (Marguerite), Charpentier (Louise), Verdi (Violetta, Elisabetta, Desdemona), Puccini (Manon Lescaut, Tosca, Butterfly, Minnie), Wagner (Eva, Elsa), Strauss (Arabella, the Marschallin), Berg (Marie) and Barber (Vanessa).
> 
> I've only recently come to appreciate Steber's versatility and excellence. Check her out on YouTube. You'll be glad you did.


I agree with most of what you write in this piece, but after what you say about Varnay, I can feel nicer about what you say about La Stupenda LOL LOL LOL.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> I loved all three but I see a difference in Steber's from the other two that stands out and once again gives me the goosebumps the others do not.
> I do think that seeing Studer live seems to give her an unfair edge because one can see the drama unfolding before one's eyes but Steber, bless her heart cannot be undone.


Don't miss my new contest with your hero Shicoff.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

ScottK said:


> I wish there was a way to include the conte's post and Woodducks post because it's the progression of thought about Steber's voice I find intriguing. I too had a response when you said Steber for Clytemnestra and the nurse and it was that even though those are substantial rolls… Schumann-Heink clearly not singing any comprimarios...It still felt like Steber possesses too much voice to be cast that way. I'd imagine that Schuman-Heink simply couldn't sing the other roles. But I can't imagine the production....who would sing Electra and Chrysothemis and have Steber showing up for Klytemnestra? I'm guessing you're saying, if you put questions like that aside, in your minds ear Steber just sounds perfect for those other roles.


I don't perceive Klytaemnestra as a comprimario part, it has often been sung by sopranos or mezzos towards the end of their careers, but many big names have sung it (Meier, Fassbender, Varnay and Rysanek herself) rather like Herodias. It was merely a comment on the _colour_ of her voice.

I know that Steber was a soprano, but she sounds like a mezzo in this excerpt (or at least a dramatic soprano) and no, that is not the same as she was a mezzo or even a dramatic soprano.

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I don't perceive Klytaemnestra as a comprimario part, it has often been sung by sopranos or mezzos towards the end of their careers, but many big names have sung it (Meier, Fassbender, Varnay and Rysanek herself) rather like Herodias. It was merely a comment on the _colour_ of her voice.
> 
> I know that Steber was a soprano, but she sounds like a mezzo in this excerpt (or at least a dramatic soprano) and no, that is not the same as she was a mezzo or even a dramatic soprano.
> 
> N.


I can't imagine her as the Dyer's Wife at all. Everything about Steber screams the Empress to me. Even her looks. Klytemnestra is really stretching it! In Elektra, she'd be Chrysothemis.


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## ALT (Mar 1, 2021)

At the work’s world premiere in 1919 the Dyer’s Wife was sung by Lotte Lehmann which is hard to imagine someone of similar vocal weight and coloring undertaking it today. I also can’t hear Lehmann’s “breathy” singing in a role requiring so much stamina and power over the massive orchestral writing. I don’t think she recorded anything of the role. But I’d be grateful to be proven wrong.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Don't miss my new contest with your hero Shicoff.


(rubbing my hands with anticipation...)


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