# Mahler Makes Life Worth Living but I Can't Stand the 8th; What does thatsay about me?



## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm in the midst of a Mahler submersion, for the umpteenth time in my life. We watched a dvd the other night that documents many conductors talking about Mahler. One of them says (iirc)that the 8th is M's most romantic work, truly a paean to Alma and all his love for her. So after listening to the 2nd and 3rd for this past week, I istened to the 8th (by MichTilsonThomas)today, and i wanted to grab it off the player...until the very end, which seemed rather sublime.
From its very beginning, it just sounded like heavy choral cacaphony (I know it's not; i'm just trying to explain how it affected me.) I read up a bit on it , shrugged my shoulders, and now I am onto the 9th and totally mesmerized. Do some of you have negative reactions to the 8th (like you will never put it on again and you will quickly add it to the pile of cds being given away to a public library)? If so, what does that rejection say about me, you...? Thx much for your thoughts.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

This seems to me to be an excellent post, about an excellent composer, regarding a reaction that I do not connect with. The 8th is the least engrossing of Mahler's symphonies for me, maybe because he takes too long to get it done, using way too many forces. Hah - but it doesn't actively annoy me. Your post is so well stated that I figured I ought to respond anyway.

BTW mentats _always_ capitalize the first person singular.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I like the first half but rarely stay for part 2. I don't connect with all that Faustus stuff.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

You are not alone. I like most of Mahler symphonies, but can't grasp the 8th. Sure, it has an impressive scale and massive climax, but I failed to be moved. Have to try again later.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

The first movement is very contrapuntal and if the soloists don't take it easy on the vibrato it can sound a bit messy. Perhaps try another recording. 
I'm fond of the 8th although I used to feel that the ending was just a rehash of the 2nd. I don't feel that way so much now and I think it's one of those works that grows on you. I like all the angular melodies and there are some very tender and beautiful passages.
I actually have a problem with the 7th in that it's the only one of his that I have never at any point in my life been bowled over by. I'll keep trying though and maybe I'll get that 'boom' moment-or maybe I never will.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm personally a big fan of the 8th, probably my 3rd favorite of his. I really like the recurring theme in the second part. Now his 4th symphony, I could never make my way through that one!


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

I have always found the 7th just plain boring, but we shall see...when i get around to it in this immersion cycle.


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

what is a mentat?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have tried at least 20 times over the past 25 years, but the 8th always remains rock bottom in my preference of Mahler's symphonies. And I love Mahler - for me he is by far the best symphonist of all time.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I hate the 8th too - but like the others.


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## Sandy (Dec 23, 2009)

I often find Mahler confusing. For 75 years (I am 80) I followed the format for Symphonies and my ears were trained to expect a certain consistency even from modern composers. I can turn on the radio and recognize the composer and then listen for a minutre and recognize the music he wrote. Mahler is all over the place. In Mahler's music I will hear a measure or two of Brahms or Beethoven and then some part that must be original but I cannot connect with the music itself. Now, I admit I'm getting old and not much Mahler was played when I was learning about music.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I agree with the idea that some music needs to grow on you and that repeated listenings can change the way you perceive a piece of music. The trouble is that you have to have _something_ that makes you want to give a piece more tries. I've listened to the Eighth twice and I just can't get up the energy to try a third time. The most unattractive symphony he wrote, IMO.

Unlike others above, I have a real soft spot for the 4th and the 7th, probably because they were the first Mahler works I heard (about 40 years ago) and I almost wore out the LPs I had of them.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mindy said:


> what is a mentat?




Good catch.

In the science fiction *"Dune"* novels the _mentat_ is a person trained from an infant to develop and refine his mental powers, store libraries-worth of knowledge in his head, interpret body language, that sort of stuff.

Don't know why I tossed that at you; may have been well into the IPA at the time.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like the 8th in its own right but as part of Mahler's symphonic cycle it's a bit of a misfit - it's just as much oratorio as anything else and in a perfect world I wish Mahler would have designated it as a stand-alone work (then he could have could called Das Lied von der Erde his Symphony no. 8 instead).


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## Orpheus (Jul 15, 2012)

For me the problem with the 8th is that it seems more like two completely separate works inharmoniously yoked together by sheer force of will.

Personally I enjoy the second, Faustian part quite a lot; it has nice development from its early enigmatic, introverted brooding, gradually becoming more confident and outgoing through a gradually rising crescendo of intensity to which all the different vocal parts add their part in turn, to the truly spectactular climax for full orchestra and chorus at the end. The musical progression all seems to fit rather well with the text and does quite a lot to enhance my appreciation of its meaning. 

But why prefix it with that massive, barely differentiated, and wearisomely long choral bombardment, which has neither textual nor musical link (that I can see) with what comes after? I deeply dislike having my ears bludgeoned right at the outset by that gigantic, soggy, uncouth, shapeless, multi-tentacled, cephalopod... THING, frankly. It does nothing to enhance my appreciation of what comes after. 

I can only presume he wanted to beat the audience so hard and repeatedly over the head at the outset with the precept of Divine Grace, expressed in a comfortingly familar style of church worship, that when the second part of the symphony began even the slowest-witted listeners would realise that this Divine Grace stuff was what Faust's redemption was really meant to be all about. I'm rather doubtful that many people in an overwhelmingly Christian culture would have failed to realise that anyway though, except the aforementioned slow-witted ones of course (it may be different now that society is generally less Christian). 

If he was aiming for populism in his own time he was perhaps going the right way about it by making sure he put in a strong appeal to the naive sentiments of religious orthodoxy (I believe that the 8th was very popular when it first came out, was it not?). I don't think many modern listeners will appreciate being given such a heavy-handed lecture on religious orthodoxy at the start to tell them what to think about the remainder though (assuming for the sake of argument that this is what he was up to). I suspect the symphony suffers in popularity nowadays due more to the choral opening than what comes after, in any case. 

I'd be interested to hear alternative interpretations of what he was doing with this one if anyone else has one though, especially if, unlike me, they really love the opening. But for now I'm inclined if I listen to it, to ignore the first part entirely and just listen to the Faust setting. It makes the work much more enjoyable, and less like seeing a brightly coloured carnival float, full of life and vibrancy, being drawn along by a large dismal hearse.


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

man oh man, orpheus , yours is the articulate detailed description/explanation that I was so needing. But i couldn't put it into words because my reaction was so viscerally negative that all i could think of was to cover my ears. I am SO glad you responded. I'll try the 2nd part by itself . one last shot.

btw, i'm not saying you would like this work but I really enjoy Anais Mitchell's orpheus take: Hadestown.

thx so much.


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

oooh, mentats will come in VERY handy in some of my posting. The one equivalent in my vocab. is grok, which seems to get me some points on another forum i post on, in boston (where Techies etc are particularly numerous.) Thx much.


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

whew! i have company on my island!!


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

Given your response, you might enjoy this story. An old Love of mine took a classical music course at B.U.in the early '70's. One day, towards the end of the term, the Prof. said this:
"I am going to play you 10 bits of music, and after each, I want you to write down who you think was the composer." After the series was finished, the Prof asked."O.K., now who thought the first piece was Beethoven? " 3/4 of the hands went up. "And who thought the second piece was Mozart?" A plethora of hands. "And who thought the 3rd piece was Schubert?" Again, a majority of hands.And this continued through the 10.
Finally, the Prof announced, "Well, I want you all to know that all ten pieces were written by Haydn."

Perhaps it's because i know all his works so well, but i can pretty much always recognize Mahler. But I too was not raised w/ him. I had to be 25 before his glory entered my life!


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

mindy said:


> Given your response, you might enjoy this story. An old Love of mine took a classical music course at B.U.in the early '70's. One day, towards the end of the term, the Prof. said this:
> "I am going to play you 10 bits of music, and after each, I want you to write down who you think was the composer." After the series was finished, the Prof asked."O.K., now who thought the first piece was Beethoven? " 3/4 of the hands went up. "And who thought the second piece was Mozart?" A plethora of hands. "And who thought the 3rd piece was Schubert?" Again, a majority of hands.And this continued through the 10.
> Finally, the Prof announced, "Well, I want you all to know that all ten pieces were written by Haydn."
> 
> Perhaps it's because i know all his works so well, but i can pretty much always recognize Mahler. But I too was not raised w/ him. I had to be 25 before his glory entered my life!


Obviously a big Haydn fan. You could substitute Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven and do that trick too if you are clever with the pieces. 
Mahler only wrote 9 (+1) symphonies - and not really much else - so it's not hard to recognise him.


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## mindy (Jul 12, 2012)

*guess you haven't read through the thread?*



stomanek said:


> Obviously a big Haydn fan. You could substitute Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven and do that trick too if you are clever with the pieces.
> Mahler only wrote 9 (+1) symphonies - and not really much else - so it's not hard to recognise him.


but you must have not read the poster who DOES have a hard time recognizing mahler- because of their particular classical music education.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

stomanek said:


> Obviously a big Haydn fan. You could substitute Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven and do that trick too if you are clever with the pieces.
> Mahler only wrote 9 (+1) symphonies - and not really much else - so it's not hard to recognise him.


Agree about some degrees of similarity between those composers. After all, they all belong to the classical area, even Schubert. Maybe we should open a new thread about similar (confusing) pieces between them! 

For Mahler: I can recognize all his symphonies easily, except the 8, which only hints Mahler because of the massive chorus.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

I listen to the first part as a separate work. The second part, to me, is pretty much a short opera-in-disguise, and I have great trouble with Mahler at his most operatic. Generally, I like him best when he restricts himself to clearly structured forms, like in his ländlers/scherzi, the songform slow movements and the rondos. Somehow, these rigid frameworks accommodate his extravagant musical ideas better than his more loosely handled sonata allegro structures. Though the falling-apart-of-structures aspect is, of course, very mahlerian in itself.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

No shame attaches. Mahler's music is so all over the map that it's easy to be overwhelmed by one piece, and put off by another. And no two Mahler people can be expected to agree about anything -- works or performances. For instance, many almost worship the 2nd, but I can take it or leave it. The 3rd leaves me cold, and the 7th sours my stomach. Enjoy what you like, and don't worry about what you don't.


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## Sandy (Dec 23, 2009)

*My experience identifying a concerto*



stomanek said:


> Obviously a big Haydn fan. You could substitute Mozart, Schubert, Beethoven and do that trick too if you are clever with the pieces.
> Mahler only wrote 9 (+1) symphonies - and not really much else - so it's not hard to recognise him.


Down at a Malibu Beach, I began to whistle Poulenc's Double Piano Concerto. Some smart *** kid walked by and said "Mozart" and I bet him $20 it was not Mozart. I had KUSC on the radio and the kid ran back and brought a $20 bill and I took it after confirming my statement.

Chopin wrote a piece based on the style of Mozart but that has become so popular, there is no money to be earned on a bet.


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

Considering "after having performed as a part of the mass choir" in Vancouver in 1991 of the first performance of Mahler's 8th ever performed in Vancouver, BC; the experience of the Mahler 8th was the sense of "this is too much for my little brain to comprehend". I haven't listened to it since. As another member has said. Mahler's music is all over the compositional map. 

I think I just like the Baroque period a lot more than any of the later works in the classical genre. I think about as far foward as I go is Beethoven with a little Chopin mixed in.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Sandy said:


> Down at a Malibu Beach, I began to whistle Poulenc's Double Piano Concerto. Some smart *** kid walked by and said "Mozart" and I bet him $20 it was not Mozart. I had KUSC on the radio and the kid ran back and brought a $20 bill and I took it after confirming my statement.
> 
> Chopin wrote a piece based on the style of Mozart but that has become so popular, there is no money to be earned on a bet.


You should find the kid and give him his money back, since there is Mozart in that Poulenc work.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

mindy said:


> .... I istened to the 8th (by MichTilsonThomas)today, and i wanted to grab it off the player...until the very end, which seemed rather sublime.
> From its very beginning, it just sounded like heavy choral cacaphony (I know it's not; i'm just trying to explain how it affected me.) I read up a bit on it , shrugged my shoulders,...Do some of you have negative reactions to the 8th (like you will never put it on again and you will quickly add it to the pile of cds being given away to a public library)? If so, what does that rejection say about me, you...? Thx much for your thoughts.


I suggest continuing your Mahler journey, and then returning to the 8th.

Try other M8 recordings. You may find one that unlocks the door. The two that did it for me--LSO/Bernstein (Sony, 1966), Staats. Berlin/Boulez (DG, 2007).

Good luck, enjoy.


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

vaneyes, I'd be interested in your opinion of the Bernstein recording, versus the Tennstedt. I used to own the Tennstedt recording before someone stole my entire collection way back in 1992.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

musicphotogAnimal said:


> vaneyes, I'd be interested in your opinion of the Bernstein recording, versus the Tennstedt. I used to own the Tennstedt recording before someone stole my entire collection way back in 1992.


Pardon the late answer, but maybe it can help someone else decide...if you are no longer are around. 
:lol:
My first two M8s were Tennstedt, then Solti. Two that receive enormous accolades to this day. Well, they gave me headaches. A lot of noise.

The LSO/Bernstein (Sony '66), and Staats. Berlin/Boulez (DG '07) are detailed, with sensible dynamics. Listen and learn. :tiphat:


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

The 8th for me is overstays it's welcome. I'm really quite fond of _Symphonies Nos. 4-7_. I do enjoy _Symphony No. 9_ as well. I can take _Symphony No. 3_ in small doses. I have no opinion on the _Symphonies Nos. 1 & 2_.


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## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm passionate about all of M's symphonies and Das Lied, except for #8. It contains too many words!


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## julianoq (Jan 29, 2013)

I listened to the 8th only two times some time ago, and the only thing that I remember about it is that I liked the part 1 but part 2 not so much. I will listen to it again today, maybe my feelings about it changed!


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## handlebar (Mar 19, 2009)

I grasp and listen to the 8th occasionally. I simply just don't like it, especially the first half. Some bits of the second are ok but like most here, it is a work of my dear Herr Mahler less enjoyed than the rest. Not everything our favourite composers penned is a masterpiece. This one is GM's dud IMHO.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I think that people underrate the 8th. It has quite a bit of substance to it, and it's practically a development of two ideas, constantly morphing and varying into new shapes. The choral writing is more interesting than in the 2nd, I think.


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## Cygnenoir (Dec 21, 2011)

The 8th was actually the second Mahler symphony I heard after the 1st, and I loved the 2nd mvt. instantly. The 1st mvt. is ok, but perhaps a bit fussy. "The Final scene from Faust II" is long, and has some few unexciting tralala-moments. But the whole movement is very dynamic and in constant motion towards the blindingly beautiful "Chorus Mysticus". Other favorite moments are the opening (with "Waldung, sie schwankt heran"), "Dir der unberührbaren", "Komm! **** dich..." and "Blicket auf".


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I love the 8th, especially the first movement; it's like looking at the sun... or God becoming Man. The second movement, it's the long night of humanity, waiting for the sun to re-appear. And finally, with the chorus, Love rejoins the Subject with the Object!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

mindy said:


> *Mahler Makes Life Worth Living but I Can't Stand the 8th; What does that say about me?*


Umm... that you like symphonies, but not oratorios(??)


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## hreichgott (Dec 31, 2012)

Even if you never get to like the 8th, Mahler did set you up with many many more hours' worth of music to enjoy.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Chi_townPhilly said:


> Umm... that you like symphonies, but not oratorios(??)


....please no.

It's written in symphonic form. The composer called it a symphony. It's a symphony. Case closed.


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

I love the 8th. Maybe it's my teenage optimism? :lol:


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## musicphotogAnimal (Jul 24, 2012)

Thank you. vaneyes. Been busy with my wildlife photography so I haven't had much time to come back. I appreciate the detailed explanation. I'm definitely leaning towards the Bernstein.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

The Chorus Mysticus from Rattle's 8th (BBC proms, Royal Albert Hall) is one of my favorite things in all music. I haven't heard any other Mahler 8 finale sound that glorious. The sound of the universe.


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

The 8th was the hardest Mahler Symphony for me to really "get" or "understand". It was the only one that didn't immediately grab me so to speak. It took a lot of listens, a lot of different recordings, watching DVD's and eventually seeing it live in person to really get the full scope of things. I always loved the beginning of Part I and I always liked the end of Part II, but the stuff in between was harder to get into. It takes a certain mood for me to listen to singing in my Symphonies.

As far as Recordings, while I'm not a Claudio Abbado fan most of the time, especially when it comes to Mahler, his 8th is probably one of the better recordings available as far as sound quality, performance and modern interpretation goes. If you go against Mahler's wishes and allow a recording of only a Single Chorus instead of "Double", Giuseppe Sinopoli's recording is really well done. Klaus Tennstedt's recording is the same way, Single Chorus. Tennstedt reminds me of the Bernstein recording on Sony that was also mentioned. Bernstein does a nice job, but is much better on Part II than Part I, I think. Rafael Kubelik's version is a good one as well. I'm not a fan of the Solti recording that everyone else seems to think is so great and has been recommended so highly over the years.

Mahler is my favorite composer and I love all of his works. I have a much greater appreciation of the 8th now than I did when I first heard it 10-15 years ago, and although the 8th remains my least listened too symphony based solely on the number of times I listen to it in one years time, it still does get listened too and appreciated. Perhaps in another 10-15 years it will move up the ladder or on my death bed will be all I want to hear, who knows?


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

I used to love the 8th, but once I got used to the intensity of the music, I found it to be too much. Also, it's an hour and 20min or so and boy does it FEEL like an hour and 20min. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the symphony, but when I feel like listening to Mahler, his 8th usually isn't my first choice.

Don't worry, it's not just you. There's a split between people who think it's his greatest achievement and those who think it is musically inferior.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

:tiphat: Thanks, guys! This thread has popped up so appositely as the 8th is my project this weekend. Yours sincerely, 'The Ignoramus'.  

(I'm posting this so I can find your posts again easily & shamelessly cannibalise them! :lol: )


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

..I think it's good to have music that You can't stand, just means that You have stuff that may or may not grow on You! Dislikes like adversaries are things invented to make You grow!

/ptr


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## Johnnie Burgess (Aug 30, 2015)

The 8th just does not do it for me. I am not saying that it is a bad symphony.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I've had better luck with live recordings of the 8th, such as Dudamel's monumental performance:






The texts matter in this symphony, too often ignored by some listeners, and why it was composed on such a large scale. I do not view it as a bad symphony, but I believe the first movement does not sound characteristic of Mahler and it can confuse listeners, so it takes some getting used to. The rest of the symphony sounds more characteristic of Mahler. Dudamel's, it's one of the best that I've heard because the voices do not sound strained like in so many other recordings I've heard where they're pushed to the limit.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

maybe half way through writing the 8th, Mahler should have realized its not working out. He should have scraped the 8th early on, and used this creative time to write some great String Quartets. 
I would love Mahler's SQ,s its his syms which i just for some reason, can't get into.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Not only his 8th, but his 3rd, at well over 1 hour,,,,and note the large women's chorus,,which just stands there most of the sym, with absolutely nothing to do,,i've skimmed through the sym, and could not find the place where the chorus is actually singing..whats up with that, what a waste. mahler just does not make any sense to me. 
All his music just meanders and i lose interest. 
It REALLY takes a certain kind of psyche to get into mahler, No wonder i never see any of you Mahlerites over at Pettersson, Schnittke, Elliott Carter's pages. 
Mahler to me is like a cult, a religious sect. fan-atics.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

I hate Mahler's 8th, and I've never heard it.  

I intensely dislike the sound of a large chorus+orchestra, I dislike the choral movements in other Mahler symphonies. Why should I subject myself to it when there is so much music in the world that I have not heard?


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

paulbest said:


> maybe half way through writing the 8th, Mahler should have realized its not working out. He should have scraped the 8th early on, and used this creative time to write some great String Quartets.
> I would love Mahler's SQ,s its his syms which i just for some reason, can't get into.


He wrote some great orchestral Lieder that are generally on a smaller scale than his symphonies. There is an early piano quintet, but it's basically juvenilia.

I also don't like the 8th. But I think the problem is with me.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

paulbest said:


> Not only his 8th, but his 3rd, at well over 1 hour..


Well, at least the 3rd goes somewhere, from chaos to divine love. I'll hang in there for something like that.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

Manxfeeder said:


> Well, at least the 3rd goes somewhere, from chaos to divine love. I'll hang in there for something like that.


Yes, and I shorten it by skipping the middle movements with all the caterwauling!


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

paulbest said:


> Not only his 8th, but his 3rd, at well over 1 hour,,,,and note the large women's chorus,,which just stands there most of the sym, with absolutely nothing to do,,i've skimmed through the sym, and could not find the place where the chorus is actually singing..whats up with that, what a waste. mahler just does not make any sense to me.
> All his music just meanders and i lose interest.
> It REALLY takes a certain kind of psyche to get into mahler, No wonder i never see any of you Mahlerites over at Pettersson, Schnittke, Elliott Carter's pages.
> Mahler to me is like a cult, a religious sect. fan-atics.


Maybe skimming isn't how one comes to understand and appreciate difficult music.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Yes, and I shorten it by skipping the middle movements with all the caterwauling!


I don't know. I'm always in the mood for a good Bim Bam. Wait, that didn't come out right.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I intensely dislike the sound of a large chorus+orchestra, I dislike the choral movements in other Mahler symphonies. Why should I subject myself to it when there is so much music in the world that I have not heard?


Lol, I've said many times that I have a similar relationship to the 8th in that it bores me rigid. Took me years to get the 3rd but the 8th is the one Mahler symphony I really dislike. Ive got multiple Mahler symphony cycles and even a few 'classic' stand-alone 8ths (Solti, etc) but try as i might I cannot stand it. I can do choral + orchestra as long as its going somewhere but , to me, this was Mahler's biggest dud. Kudos to those who love it (and there are quite a few out there) but it's still not my bag.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

BTW, if you've not read this article on Classic FM, I recommend it. It always makes me smile. Titled 
'We forced this guy to listen to all 9 Mahler symphonies in one day and he almost had a breakdown'. It's an amusing read. There's a similar one on Haydn too.

https://www.classicfm.com/composers/mahler/guides/mahlerthon/


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I like Mahler 8, for the finale. Why not?

I have the Dudamel Bluray but I still prefer the one below with Rattle from the BBC Proms. 
I have also sampled a lot of other Mahler 8 (finales), none of which have particularly pleased me. To me nothing beats the version below. Even in youtube sound quality, I prefer its _sound_ over all the others I've heard.

It's more dynamic, sounds more unified, better controlled than most.

During chorus only parts, I don't want to (clearly) hear the individual soloists singing along with the chorus. Which can be heard during Dudamel and other versions. It just doesn't sound right. No, I want to hear a unified, mass chorus sound. Also during the final orchestral moments there should be a big unified sound.

Next to that, a little natural reverb goes a long way to give some depth to the sound. If it's too "dry" sounding, this whole symphony just doesn't work.

The sound of the universe. That is where this version succeeds where all the others fail.
Great crescendo starting at 3:05!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Not only his 8th, but his 3rd, at well over 1 hour,,,,and note the large women's chorus,,which just stands there most of the sym, with absolutely nothing to do,,i've skimmed through the sym, and could not find the place where the chorus is actually singing..whats up with that, what a waste. mahler just does not make any sense to me.
> All his music just meanders and i lose interest.
> It REALLY takes a certain kind of psyche to get into mahler, No wonder i never see any of you Mahlerites over at Pettersson, Schnittke, Elliott Carter's pages.
> Mahler to me is like a cult, a religious sect. fan-atics.


Pettersson, Schnittke, Carter, hah!! The sort of music you like to hear in a silent film.

Mahler's music does not meander. It takes a certain inate musical ability to appreciate his carefully constructed sound world that some will never understand. But who cares anyway? We Mahler fans don't really need the approval of the musical illiterate. And I'll stop now before I get really annoyed.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> I've had better luck with live recordings of the 8th, such as Dudamel's monumental performance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right about the importance of the text in the 8th. I'd go so far as to say that an imperfect understanding of the text completely negates everything that makes this symphony the triumph that it is.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2019)

Barbebleu said:


> You're absolutely right about the importance of the text in the 8th. I'd go so far as to say that an imperfect understanding of the text completely negates everything that makes this symphony the triumph that it is.


You have confirmed me in my resolution never to allow myself to hear any part of this piece!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

The 8th is my favorite Mahler symphony. I do not particurarly like the "veni creator spiritus" part, but I really like the Faust part. I own the Faust in German and were reading the text while listening to the symphony. Pretty impressive.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Interesting that so many like one part, but not the other. I wasn't as well-versed in Mahler as I am now when I last heard the piece, but don't remember any big difference in quality between the two. I shall have to listen to the whole symphony sometime soon to re-evaluate it.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

nothing new there,,I've noted that for yrs now,,,*like part X, but not part Z*. 
btw, don't you Mahlerians , regret that Mahler had not written other forms, Like say you guys wish he had written only 5 symphonies and put his other creative energy into concertos/quartets, piano solo,,maybe a opera.
I mean with ravel we get all that, minus the opera. 
Even with my Szymanowski collection, i have a nice range of genre. 
I just see Mahler as a rather limited experience in music. 
Even Pettersson who is a very insignificant /minor composer next to Mahler, at least he has 2 concertos to his credit.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Jacck said:


> The 8th is my favorite Mahler symphony. I do not particurarly like the "veni creator spiritus" part, but I really like the Faust part. I own the Faust in German and were reading the text while listening to the symphony. Pretty impressive.


That's funny. I turn it off after the Veni Creator Spiritus.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

I like both sections, with perhaps a slight preference for Goethe’s Faust


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

paulbest said:


> I mean with ravel we get all that, minus the opera.


Ravel never wrote a symphony, nor much choral music.

Interestingly, he did write two operas.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Yes Ravel would never write a one hour long work, where the huge chorus just sits around and waits for its 10 minutes of glory. 
But what is Daphne, what is Tombeau , Miroirs, if not symphonic scores?
His great piano G concerto. 
His trio, and SQ. 
An opera like Debussy's Pelleas would have beena huge bonus. 
His piano works makes up for that lack of a great opera.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Yes Ravel would never write a one hour long work, where the huge chorus just sits around and waits for its 10 minutes of glory.


You claim to be a record critic for 35 years and you don't even know that Daphnis is about an hour long and calls for a mixed chorus? :lol:


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Merl said:


> Lol, I've said many times that I have a similar relationship to the 8th in that it bores me rigid. Took me years to get the 3rd but the 8th is the one Mahler symphony I really dislike. Ive got multiple Mahler symphony cycles and even a few 'classic' stand-alone 8ths (Solti, etc) but try as i might I cannot stand it. I can do choral + orchestra as long as its going somewhere but , to me, this was Mahler's biggest dud. Kudos to those who love it (and there are quite a few out there) but it's still not my bag.


The 8th was not Mahler's biggest "dud"; as a matter of fact, it was a critical and popular success during his lifetime.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Becca said:


> You claim to be a record critic for 35 years and you don't even know that Daphnis is about an hour long and calls for a mixed chorus? :lol:


some recordings leave out the chorus,,and get this,, some conductors make a *Part 2 ONLY* recording. 
These 2 oddities are the 2 most strangest, weirdest gravest errors in all CM recording industry. 
How could Martinon go on to record a Chicago recording, part 2 only...?? How? 
why would he do it? 
I heard the great french conductor hada rough go over in Chicago..
Wait,,was Fritz Reiner german ancestry? 
Along comes a far superior conductor who happens to be french. 
Not sure, i know someone mentioned there was a important figure in the Chicago SO org who gave martinon a hard time. 
maybe he wanted to make a complete Daphne and the powersthatbe in Chicago decided otherwise. 
I think someone suggested at that time in the record industry,,LP;'s were given a more rounded collection of works, so as to draw in more sales. 
Not sure on that, I note other records also have part 2 only. 
I just don't get it, How about Mahler sym ,,,,,part 2 only. 
Do ya think the Mahlerians would complain?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If I was in any doubt about whether you know what you are talking about (I'm not, you don't), it was Ravel who extracted parts of the complete ballet in order to make two suites for concert performance with no requirement that both be performed together (that's why he made 2 suites!)

P.S. Reiner was Hungarian.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

sure OK, got ya, so its no big deal how Daphne is recorded, Both are Part 2 only,,its all the same. 
Right?
as per Ravel himself. yes?


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

mindy said:


> If so, what does that rejection say about me, you...? Thx much for your thoughts.


Yeah Boss, whatever it says about you it says about me. I don't like it either.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I find the "Mahler makes life worth living...." bit the most disturbing. As much as I love his music, surely there's more to live for??

I love Mahler's 8th, but it's my eleventh favourite Mahler symphony.......


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

flamencosketches said:


> He wrote some great orchestral Lieder that are generally on a smaller scale than his symphonies. There is an early piano quintet, but it's basically juvenilia.
> 
> I also don't like the 8th. But I think the problem is with me.


You mean the piano quartet he wrote at 16. I thought it was ok, I think it shows the influence of Tchaikovsky


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Right, quartet. As I say, it's pretty much juvenilia, but it is interesting hearing his thoughts at this early stage.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

To me it's quite all right to like some composers works but not others. I like Mahler generally but not the eighth. Nothing wrong there. Like when Shostakovich asked Richter why he didn't play all his preludes and fugues, Richter replied, "Why should I play the ones I don't like?"


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

To make conversation about the musical taste of a fellow member isn't in my intention. Everybody has the right to like or to dislike a musical work. What I have seen and I liked it a lot is that the 8ths with Dudamel and Rattle are the best of the recent time, declaration which is fair and correct.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

"It's as if Mahler found a different idiom for each symphony." -Daniel Barenboim:





----
How can anyone possibly appreciate this symphony without understanding that it was dedicated to his wife (in an effort to win her back) and the accompaning text that is dedicated to the spirit of creation? He is portraying the bliss of divine love and peace. It's also an appeal to the divine forces of the universe. It's his most uplifting, positive and heartfelt symphony, an exalted spiritual celebration pointing to the spiritual dimension. The text points to the ecstatic and the 8th is one more idiom that he composed in.

https://www.naxos.com/sungtext/PDF/550533-34_Mahler_Texts.pdf

Strengthen our weak body with eternal power.
Light the light of our senses, pour love into our hearts.
Light the light of our senses, pour love into our hearts.
Drive further away the enemy and forthwith grant peace; under your guidance
let us avoid all harm...

Grant the rewards of joys,
grant the gifts of graces;
loosen the chains of law,
draw tighter the bonds of peace. Grant peace forthwith,
under your guidance
drive away the enemy,
thus let us avoid all that is worst...

*Pater ecstaticus* (floating above and below) 
Eternal burning brand,
Glowing bond of Love,
Seething pain of the breast,
Foaming joy of God.
Arrows, pierce me,
Lances, subdue me,
Maces, beat me down, Lightning thunder through me! That now the worthless
Be cursed for ever
Shine forth the enduring star, Eternal Love's centre.

_In English, *Pater ecstaticus* is the Ecstatic Father, the Father of the Deep, and the Angelic Father, these three are religious hermits who live in the mountains and gorges. Faust's soul flies past them as it ascends into heaven. They sing of the Lord God's infinite love, which He expresses in the form of nature._


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

......................


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Larkenfield said:


> ----
> How can anyone possibly appreciate this symphony without understanding that it was dedicated to his wife (in an effort to win her back) and the accompaning text that is dedicated to the spirit of creation?


Thanks for the exposition. Is he also dealing with the eternal feminine, the concept that women are responsible for making men better/moral/spiritual? Or am I reading too much into that? And is he hinting that he sees his wife as the Mater Gloriosa?


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

CnC Bartok said:


> I find the "Mahler makes life worth living...." bit the most disturbing. As much as I love his music, surely there's more to live for??


Well, there's that lady from Educating Rita.

[video=dailymotion;x2z53la]https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2z53la[/video]


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^ Indeed. I think Maureen Lipman proves my point!


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ Indeed. I think Maureen Lipman proves my point!


I guess she does.


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