# A Disparaging Comment About Mozart's Operas



## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

On one of the major forums last week I came across this:



> *Mozart's genius could operate at full speed without a Da Ponte. There is not a single aria, duet, or ensemble in any of his operas that would not be just as sublime if written, without words, for a piano, or trio, a quintet, or symphony orchestra, or any combination thereof. Nor am I moved or entertained by the plots and characters for which Mozart was sidetracked, for whatever reason, into composing those tiresome operas. I would be happy if Mozart had written a dozen more symphonies and a dozen more piano concertos instead of the operas, excepting maybe Die Zauberflote.
> 
> Puccini and Strauss are far more interesting as opera composers.*




A few quickly responded to say that.... "this is a serious contender for the most jaw-dropping statement I ever read on this forum"

Question:

Have you ever met an opera lover who has expressed similar sentiments?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

See: http://www.talkclassical.com/23562-mozart-over-rated-3.html#post411362


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

No matter how 'fluffy' those period pieces or plots are, someone will always have to take a crack at that undeniable perfection.

Too, if you love Puccini you love syrup and soap operas: if you love Strauss, you love a higher state of melodrama and or a 'gooey-er' sentiment than existed in Mozart's era. As to that, you may as well conjecture what Berg's "Lulu" might have been like if Mozart had written it instead... i.e. non sequitur city, big time.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

I guess not everybody has to love the da Ponte operas. While we're on curious statements, I personally would take Mitridate over the Flute.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Xavier said:


> On one of the major forums last week I came across this:
> 
> [/size][/b][/font]
> 
> ...


Yes,you will see equally misguided types on the thread you've been directed towards. You meet nuttars all through life you know.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

I even know people that simply hate opera. So not to like Mozart's operas is not new to me. Everyone is entitled to an opinion...however some are simply pathetic.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

PetrB said:


> Too, if you love Puccini you love syrup and soap operas: if you love Strauss, you love a higher state of melodrama and or a 'gooey-er' sentiment than existed in Mozart's era.


What about if you love Wagner?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Yes, well...Puccini and Strauss had the advantage of over 100 years of musical evolution before they wrote THEIR great ones. Mozart's later operas were as sophisticated and advanced as operas could be at that time - perhaps this person just didn't like opera from that era and singled Mozart's out because they have endured?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Apart from Le Nozze di Figaro I think I might agree with the guy.....


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

*ComposerOfAvantGarde*, me too! Very often I sit in the opera house watching a Mozart opera and wondering whether this would be better presented as a set of concert arias (many of which are true masterpieces) or parts of his piano concerti. Except the Flute, which somehow coheres...

I don't think this takes anything away from my genuine awe at Mozart's writing for the voice, but many of his operas are very hard-going (e.g., Cosi or Don Giovanni). They are not very dramatic. But then, if you accept that, it doesn't really matter. You know it ain't La Traviata, but the music may well be better...

RD


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> What about if you love Wagner?


Conclusion (and the point being made was...) you love / prefer the ethos of an era other than the era of Mozart.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

RobertoDevereux said:


> *ComposerOfAvantGarde*, me too! Very often I sit in the opera house watching a Mozart opera and wondering whether this would be better presented as a set of concert arias (many of which are true masterpieces) or parts of his piano concerti. Except the Flute, which somehow coheres...
> 
> I don't think this takes anything away from my genuine awe at Mozart's writing for the voice, but many of his operas are very hard-going (e.g., Cosi or Don Giovanni). They are not very dramatic. But then, if you accept that, it doesn't really matter. You know it ain't La Traviata, but the music may well be better...
> 
> RD


_*zOMG!!!*_ Mozart was not a romantic composer?


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

PetrB said:


> _*zOMG!!!*_ Mozart was not a romantic composer?


Sorry, didn't follow that... I'd say, yes, he was. Where did the question come from?

RD


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

*A Disparaging Comment About Mozart's Operas*

View attachment 14405


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)




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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

RobertoDevereux said:


> *Cbut many of his operas are very hard-going (e.g., Cosi or Don Giovanni). They are not very dramatic. RD*


*

You must lead a very exciting life if you think Don Giovanni lacks drama. I reckon attempted rape, murder, attempted seduction, more attempted rape, parties, beatings up and being dragged to Hell by a stone statue is moderately dramatic.*


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> What about if you love Wagner?


Wagner fans are the type that can't turn their eyes away from TLC


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

RobertoDevereux said:


> *ComposerOfAvantGarde*, me too! Very often I sit in the opera house watching a Mozart opera and wondering whether this would be better presented as a set of concert arias (many of which are true masterpieces) or parts of his piano concerti. Except the Flute, which somehow coheres...
> 
> I don't think this takes anything away from my genuine awe at Mozart's writing for the voice, but many of his operas are very hard-going (e.g., Cosi or Don Giovanni). They are not very dramatic. But then, if you accept that, it doesn't really matter. You know it ain't La Traviata, but the music may well be better...
> 
> RD


You have to wonder whether some people have actually seen the operas they pontificate upon.

"It is our misfortune as a nation that we are obliged to think of Mozart as an instrumental composer---because of that accident in the country's social history which deprived us of an opera-house in every city". Neville Cardus.


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> You must lead a very exciting life if you think Don Giovanni lacks drama. I reckon attempted rape, murder, attempted seduction, more attempted rape, parties, beatings up and being dragged to Hell by a stone statue is moderately dramatic.


 Your comment reminded me of an ad for Don Giovanni called "Who is Don?" put out by the Royal Opera House last year. Have a look, it's really clever and and is exactly about what you are saying (you might have to work through some local accents though 






RD


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

RobertoDevereux said:


> *ComposerOfAvantGarde*, me too! Very often I sit in the opera house watching a Mozart opera and wondering whether this would be better presented as a set of concert arias (many of which are true masterpieces) or parts of his piano concerti. Except the Flute, which somehow coheres...
> 
> I don't think this takes anything away from my genuine awe at Mozart's writing for the voice, but many of his operas are very hard-going (e.g., Cosi or Don Giovanni). They are not very dramatic. But then, if you accept that, it doesn't really matter. You know it ain't La Traviata, but the music may well be better...
> 
> RD


Have ever seen these operas?

To me they are vastly more dramatic than (eg) Traviata.

But then, have you seen that?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> You must lead a very exciting life if you think Don Giovanni lacks drama. I reckon attempted rape, murder, attempted seduction, more attempted rape, parties, beatings up and being dragged to Hell by a stone statue is moderately dramatic.


Fairly typical Friday night, and even in bed by 11 pm.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Couchie said:


> in bed by 11 pm.


now that's what I call badass!


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

RobertoDevereux said:


> RD


aww, that's a really nice ad. I wish more places would market it for what it is, like this, instead of trying to make interpretations "edgy" or "modern" in order to attract a younger audience and have it harm the production.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

RobertoDevereux said:


> Your comment reminded me of an ad for Don Giovanni called "Who is Don?" put out by the Royal Opera House last year. Have a look, it's really clever and and is exactly about what you are saying (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had seen this before - it's very clever. I love all the reactions from the other cafe customers.



> you might have to work through some local accents though


s'awright. I'm a Pom, just made me a bit homesick.


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

> You have to wonder whether some people have actually seen the operas they pontificate upon.





DavidA said:


> Have ever seen these operas?
> 
> To me they are vastly more dramatic than (eg) Traviata.
> 
> But then, have you seen that?


Wow! Didn't mean to provoke such strong feelings guys! Yes, I saw Don Giovanni in New York, London, and Moscow; Cosi fan tutte in London and Moscow, and La Traviata in many places. I really like Mozart's music for Don Giovanni. Seriously, I really do. What I meant though that when I'm sitting in the opera house watching it, it feels like I'm watching Handel - just a sequence of arias and recitativi neatly following each other, so to me, this is a collection of concert arias (amd some phenomenal ones) rather than a piece of drama that holds you glued to the stage from the beginning to the end. And yes, I think Don Carlo, Romeo et Juliette, Otello, and Carmen are much better constructed (and hence more powerful and gripping) dramas. That doesn't mean it should take anything away from Mozart's _music_. I think that's what the quote that started that thread meant...

RD


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

oogabooha said:


> aww, that's a really nice ad. I wish more places would market it for what it is, like this, instead of trying to make interpretations "edgy" or "modern" in order to attract a younger audience and have it harm the production.


Yes, totally! I believe there is absolutely nothing inherently "inaccessible" about opera, so all you need to do is bring people into the opera house and more than half of them want to come again. So marketing it like this rather than "modernizing it" or "dumbing it down" is a much better way of getting people in. Over the past several years, I've got random groups (of 10-12 people) from work to come see Les Contes d'Hoffman, L'Elisir d'Amore, and Le Nozze di Figaro with me at the Royal Opera House, and everyone loved it. I think "accessibility" means "access", not "pandering".

RD


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

RobertoDevereux said:


> Wow! Didn't mean to provoke such strong feelings guys! Yes, I saw Don Giovanni in New York, London, and Moscow; Cosi fan tutte in London and Moscow, and La Traviata in many places. I really like Mozart's music for Don Giovanni. Seriously, I really do. What I meant though that when I'm sitting in the opera house watching it, it feels like I'm watching Handel - just a sequence of arias and recitativi neatly following each other, so to me, this is a collection of concert arias (amd some phenomenal ones) rather than a piece of drama that holds you glued to the stage from the beginning to the end. And yes, I think Don Carlo, Romeo et Juliette, Otello, and Carmen are much better constructed (and hence more powerful and gripping) dramas. That doesn't mean it should take anything away from Mozart's _music_. I think that's what the quote that started that thread meant...
> 
> RD


That's interesting, Roberto. I have to admit, it's the opposite experience to mine. As the music moves, both comically and dramatically through the tale, I can't imagine any other music to these words. The music is perfectly chosen to fit the dramatic expectations of the scene.

For example, the terzetto in Don Giovanni, Elvira pining at the balcony to be greeted by the amorous Don's response, she looks down and thinks she sees him: it's Leporello dressed as his master, sniggering while the concealed Don Giovanni messes with Elvira's head and heart. Where this works dramatically, and comically, for me, is that it's both sumptuous and beautifully romantic music - and it's an OTT mockery of the same. It works as an aural experience, but when we see it in the context of the play, we also hear a larger comical context, the nasty playfulness and insincerity in Don Giovanni, his contempt for Elvira's feelings.

It all comes through the music, and so it operates on a few levels, and all through the work we get this: Don Giovanni mirroring the music of his would-be conquests, in order to have his wicked way with them. It's psychologically advanced, but also it has a huge comic aspect that fits absolutely perfectly into the opera. It makes me laugh, and it fills me with dread at the same time. And this heightened menace and absurdity in the music escalates until the terrifying finale. It's theatre of the very highest standard, not episodic or sequential at all, to my ears...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

RobertoDevereux said:


> What I meant though that when I'm sitting in the opera house watching it, it feels like I'm watching Handel - just a sequence of arias and recitativi neatly following each other,


out of curiosity, which Handel opera(s) did you have in mind? I find the ones I've seen quite dramatic (Ariodante maybe less so).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

RobertoDevereux said:


> Wow! Didn't mean to provoke such strong feelings guys! Yes, I saw Don Giovanni in New York, London, and Moscow; Cosi fan tutte in London and Moscow, and La Traviata in many places. I really like Mozart's music for Don Giovanni. Seriously, I really do. What I meant though that when I'm sitting in the opera house watching it, it feels like I'm watching Handel - just a sequence of arias and recitativi neatly following each other, so to me, this is a collection of concert arias (amd some phenomenal ones) rather than a piece of drama that holds you glued to the stage from the beginning to the end. And yes, I think Don Carlo, Romeo et Juliette, Otello, and Carmen are much better constructed (and hence more powerful and gripping) dramas. That doesn't mean it should take anything away from Mozart's _music_. I think that's what the quote that started that thread meant...
> 
> RD


Well, that does beat all. Mozart is like watching Handel?

BTW da Ponte's libretti are among the finest ever written for opera. Probably only Boito's for Verdi equal them.

I think what you are meaning is you like your drama to be more obvious. Mozart's are highly dramatic but it is more subtle.


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

Kieran said:


> It all comes through the music, and so it operates on a few levels, and all through the work we get this: Don Giovanni mirroring the music of his would-be conquests, in order to have his wicked way with them. It's psychologically advanced, but also it has a huge comic aspect that fits absolutely perfectly into the opera. It makes me laugh, and it fills me with dread at the same time. And this heightened menace and absurdity in the music escalates until the terrifying finale. It's theatre of the very highest standard, not episodic or sequential at all, to my ears...


*Kieran*, yeah, I could see that, especially the buildup to the finale. You say that it's all in the music, and I think that's partly the thing - with the long sequence of recitativi and arias/ensembles there is no musical "bridge material" that takes you with it. Instead, what I hear is a series of self-contained musical numbers interspersed with periods of sprechstimme. So to me the whole experience sounds like fits and starts - I just can't get into the groove so to speak...

This discussion is really interesting... I do think that Mozart is at his best when he is writing for the voice, but as far as his complete operas go, I find them a bit hard-going...

RD


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## RobertoDevereux (Feb 12, 2013)

deggial said:


> out of curiosity, which Handel opera(s) did you have in mind? I find the ones I've seen quite dramatic (Ariodante maybe less so).


I was thinking of Rinaldo and Rodelinda. Alcina I found quite exciting 

RD


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

RobertoDevereux said:


> *Kieran*, yeah, I could see that, especially the buildup to the finale. You say that it's all in the music, and I think that's partly the thing - with the long sequence of recitativi and arias/ensembles there is no musical "bridge material" that takes you with it. Instead, what I hear is a series of self-contained musical numbers interspersed with periods of sprechstimme. So to me the whole experience sounds like fits and starts - I just can't get into the groove so to speak...
> 
> This discussion is really interesting... I do think that Mozart is at his best when he is writing for the voice, but as far as his complete operas go, I find them a bit hard-going...
> 
> RD


I'm at a loss as to what you expect, then, if you find Mozart operas hard going. As far as music for the theatre goes, they build architecturally towards the finales, cranking it up as they go. It's difficult to know what would please you, if Mozart operas fail to...


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

RobertoDevereux said:


> I was thinking of Rinaldo and Rodelinda. Alcina I found quite exciting


ah, I see. I agree about Rodelinda, less so about Rinaldo. And of course I agree about Alcina, hehe.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

One reason that I keep compulsively collecting Don Giovanni DVDs is that the characters are so open to interpretation. Donna Anna - well. was she raped, was she willing but is now horrified at herself, how does she feel about the Don now, what does she think of Ottavio? And Ottavio - what is going through his head? How much longer is he going to last with all the dissembling from Anna? Zerlinetta - dim-witted innocent or cunning social climber? Elvira - how much of her motivation is obsessive love and how much revenge? Leporello - friend and equal in adventure, or downtrodden servant? And the Don himself - evil old pedo-roué or just a very naughty boy who needed more boundaries when growing up?

And that's before we even get the music!


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