# The"other" dodecaphonists



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

This thread is not dedicated to the Second Viennese School or the leading Darmstadt composers (be them Boulez, Maderna, Nono and Stockhausen) but all the others surrounding them and even those you wouldn't expect to find dodecaphnic works from.

*Some names to explore:*

Milton Babbitt

Tadeusz Baird

Jean Barraqué

Luciano Berio

Leonard Bernstein

John Cage

Jacques Calonne

Friedrich Cerha

Carlos Chávez

Charles Koechlin

Aaron Copland

Luigi Dallapiccola

Hanns Eisler

Benjamin Frankel

Karel Goeyvaerts

Alexander Goehr

Henryk Górecki

Lou Harrison

Paavo Heininen

Josef Matthias Hauer

Hanns Jelinek

Gottfried Michael Koenig

Ernst Krenek

György Kurtág

Witold Lutosławski

Elisabeth Lutyens

Arvo Pärt

Walter Piston

Henri Pousseur

George Rochberg

Maurice Le Roux

Einojuhani Rautavaara

Humphrey Searle

Roger Sessions

Nikolaos Skalkottas

Igor Stravinsky

Gilles Tremblay

Egon Wellesz

Charles Wuorinen

*Feel free to share, recommend and explore these and more composers/compositions in this thread.*

I'm currently listening to:


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Marvelous 12-tone symphony, virtually unknown, did not appear on your list:


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

This is one of the greatest American symphonies, yet almost never mentioned. It used to be more popular, of course, in the "serial era" so to speak. My understanding is that doctoral candidates used to write dissertations on it (I believe there is one available on the internet). Needs to be better recorded. (Not on your list). He was a friend of Lenny too, BTW. And he didn't always write serial music. But a lot of his serial music was marvelous.


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

This music is INCREDIBLE. It is by (don't laugh) ***Jerry Goldsmith***. It is his *concert music*. Yes, he wrote concert music, too. In the liner notes to _The Illustrated Man_ soundtrack he said that if he were a concert hall composer, he would write serial music (The Illustrated Man contains 12-tone music in some cues). I also read him say similar things in other interviews, I believe in Film Score Monthly. Anyway, this piece is 12-tone. I think the ending part though has a section that is not, where we have some Goldsmith-ian ostinatos and such, but then it gets back into atonality/serialism.

In any case, I'd give ANYTHING, to write like this. Actually, it was this piece, (along with another one I'll post) that convinced me I needed to add serialism into my arsenal of techniques. It's simply wonderful music. Schoenberg would have loved this, I think.


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

George Perle is another name to add to the list. I particularly enjoy his Sinfonietta II.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This thread is not dedicated to the Second Viennese School or the leading Darmstadt composers (be them Boulez, Maderna, Nono and Stockhausen) but all the others surrounding them and even those you wouldn't expect to find dodecaphnic works from.
> 
> *Some names to explore:*
> 
> ...


Just looking at the list, the last things I remember listening to were Barraque's ...au delà du hasard (has anyone here read the Broch?) and a string quartet by Skalkottas -- the third I think.


----------



## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

This is the other piece that convinced me. English composer Colin Matthews Broken Symmetry for large orchestra. Composed in 1992! A serial piece! Here are just 2 short clips, one from towards the end where my favorite low brass part is (I play tuba and would give anything to play the tuba part here, at the 0:50 part where the low brass go crazy). And the second clip is the very beginning. Very atmospheric. Hopefully it will get you interested.


----------



## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

s'mores

Don Banks
Richard Rodney Bennett
Roberto Gerhard
Wilfred Josephs
Mátyás Seiber
Andrew Imbrie
Leonard Rosenman
Meyer Kupferman
Paul Glass
René Leibowitz
Gilbert Amy
Philippe Arthuys
Marius Constant
Jean-Claude Eloy
Serge Nigg
Michel Philippot
Jean Prodromidès
Pierre Jansen
Antoine Duhamel
Roman Vlad
Egisto Macchi
Giorgio Gaslini
Hans Werner Henze
Mauricio Kagel
Franco Donatoni
Niccolò Castiglioni
Kazimierz Serocki
Toshiro Mayuzumi


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Prodromides said:


> s'mores
> 
> Don Banks
> Richard Rodney Bennett
> ...


*
Thank you!*
Feel free to recommend some works!!


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Takemitsu is a favorite of mine. I have a lot CDs I need to revisit by Krenek, Searle, Kurtag, Wellesz, among others. I read somewhere that the Searle symphonies on CPO aren't the best interpretations, and I've had a tough time getting into them.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

starthrower said:


> Takemitsu is a favorite of mine. I have a lot CDs I need to revisit by Krenek, Searle, Kurtag, Wellesz, among others. I read somewhere that the Searle symphonies on CPO aren't the best interpretations, and I've had a tough time getting into them.


I didn't realize Takemitsu used 12-tone methodology. Would you expanding on this?


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> I didn't realize Takemitsu used 12-tone methodology. Would you expanding on this?


Maybe he doesn't? I'll let the more musically educated here correct me. But whatever his methods, it doesn't sound like conventionally tonal music.


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

starthrower said:


> Maybe he doesn't?


He doesn't. His voice is quite unique. A blend of French Impressionism, Japanese and other non-Western influences and even a touch of Stravinsky. His music to me is "quasi-tonal". Dissonance abounds in his earlier works but as he matured that became more blended with hints of tonality. So yes, he's not "conventionally tonal" but he does not use dodecaphony.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Prodromides said:


> Franco Donatoni


Yes, he's not without interest, thus rather nice thing came up recently






Listening recently to some music by Jo Kondo, I thought there was something in common there with Donatoni. I'm not sure whether that idea will bear any scrutiny.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Vasks said:


> He doesn't. His voice is quite unique. A blend of French Impressionism, Japanese and other non-Western influences and even a touch of Stravinsky. His music to me is "quasi-tonal". Dissonance abounds in his earlier works but as he matured that became more blended with hints of tonality. So yes, he's not "conventionally tonal" but he does not use dodecaphony.


Probably why I'm more attracted to his music as opposed to the strictly dogmatic approach. And he has exquisite taste.


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Actually Takemitsu fits here because he toyed with serialism in a few works like Le Son Calligraphié apparently.

I didn't know if including Carter as a dodecaphonist would fit because he definitely was never a serialist. And then there is Xenakis, Penderecki and Ligeti who used the twelve tones more or less equally too.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ligeti, like Takemitsu, I can listen to all day. The others in smaller doses.


----------



## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Torkelburger said:


> This music is INCREDIBLE. It is by (don't laugh) ***Jerry Goldsmith***. It is his *concert music*. Yes, he wrote concert music, too. In the liner notes to _The Illustrated Man_ soundtrack he said that if he were a concert hall composer, he would write serial music (The Illustrated Man contains 12-tone music in some cues). I also read him say similar things in other interviews, I believe in Film Score Monthly. Anyway, this piece is 12-tone. I think the ending part though has a section that is not, where we have some Goldsmith-ian ostinatos and such, but then it gets back into atonality/serialism.
> 
> In any case, I'd give ANYTHING, to write like this. Actually, it was this piece, (along with another one I'll post) that convinced me I needed to add serialism into my arsenal of techniques. It's simply wonderful music. Schoenberg would have loved this, I think.


Another composer noted for their film scores, Bernard Herrmann. His Sinfonietta for Strings (1935) dabbled with the serial technique. Some of it was repurposed in his score for Psycho.


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

Here are a couple of female dodecaphonic composers to add to the list:

*Ruth Crawford Seeger*
String Quartet 1931





*Ursula Mamlok*
Concerto for Oboe and Chamber Orchestra





From My Garden


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Some other composers who used 12-tone technique.

La Monte Young: Trio for Strings - "Though linked with minimalism, the Trio for Strings is actually a serial work. The pitches used are derived from a 12-tone process; the durations of the notes are precisely calculated. Likewise, though the piece is mostly on the quiet side, the dynamic markings comprise a very deliberate system of 11 gradations of volume, ranging from pppppp to fff."
https://www.allmusic.com/composition/trio-for-strings-mc0002475864

Anders Dahl: Rows - "So I set out to create the simplest twelve tone music I could think of. The solution I came up with was to play each note of the twelve tone row once and then be done."
http://www.anothertimbre.com/rows.html





Paul A. Epstein: Landscape with Triads - "[...] Epstein cycles through major and minor chords built on all twelve tones-presented in every possible inversion, but without any functional progression-serializes dynamics, and randomizes duration and articulation."
https://recordings.irritablehedgehog.com/album/paul-a-epstein-piano-music


----------



## christomacin (Oct 21, 2017)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This thread is not dedicated to the Second Viennese School or the leading Darmstadt composers (be them Boulez, Maderna, Nono and Stockhausen) but all the others surrounding them and even those you wouldn't expect to find dodecaphnic works from.
> 
> *Some names to explore:*
> 
> ...


So, I guess you could say they were all "Hooked on Dodecaphonics"


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Vasks said:


> He doesn't. His voice is quite unique. A blend of French Impressionism, Japanese and other non-Western influences and even a touch of Stravinsky. His music to me is "quasi-tonal". Dissonance abounds in his earlier works but as he matured that became more blended with hints of tonality. So yes, he's not "conventionally tonal" but he does not use dodecaphony.


Great term, 'quasi-tonal'.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Great term, 'quasi-tonal'.


music with a 'quasi-tonic'.


----------



## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

christomacin said:


> So, I guess you could say they were all "Hooked on Dodecaphonics"


What is mystifying to me is why composers with excellent melodic creativity (Stravinsky, Piston, Copland, etc.) would depart (even if only temporarily) from tonality to constrain themselves within the rigidity and constrictions of the "atonal"/serial regimen. A thought that has occurred to me is that perhaps, for whatever in particular they were trying to express, this regimen might be uniquely effective: ideas, feelings, sensations of confusion, neurosis, agitation, discomfort, dementia, disorientation, insanity, anxiety, distraction, oneirism, trauma, fear, horror, terror, or similar conditions. The need for this might occur in an entire work, a section of a work, or perhaps a transitional segment.


----------



## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Nawdry said:


> What is mystifying to me is why composers with excellent melodic creativity (Stravinsky, Piston, Copland, etc.) would depart (even if only temporarily) from tonality to constrain themselves within the rigidity and constrictions of the "atonal"/serial regimen. A thought that has occurred to me is that perhaps, for whatever in particular they were trying to express, this regimen might be uniquely effective: ideas, feelings, sensations of confusion, neurosis, agitation, discomfort, dementia, disorientation, insanity, anxiety, distraction, oneirism, trauma, fear, horror, terror, or similar conditions. The need for this might occur in an entire work, a section of a work, or perhaps a transitional segment.


Listen to Dallapiccola's Lyriche Greche. Is this atonal music? Because it has some fabulous melodies. Dallapiccola was a great melodist. This is the one to try

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dallapiccola-Works-Voice-Ensemble-Version/dp/B00JX0I1KY


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Nawdry said:


> What is mystifying to me is why composers with excellent melodic creativity (Stravinsky, Piston, Copland, etc.) would depart (even if only temporarily) from tonality to constrain themselves within the rigidity and constrictions of the "atonal"/serial regimen. *A thought that has occurred to me is that perhaps, for whatever in particular they were trying to express, this regimen might be uniquely effective: ideas, feelings, sensations of confusion, neurosis, agitation, discomfort, dementia, disorientation, insanity, anxiety, distraction, oneirism, trauma, fear, horror, terror, or similar conditions.* The need for this might occur in an entire work, a section of a work, or perhaps a transitional segment.


:lol:

Milton Babbitt has said he embraced composing with the 12-tone method because he had exhausted the tonal system for his own work. He did not mention anything about wishing to express the emotions you list. Which is not surprising.


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Mandryka said:


> Listen to Dallapiccola's Lyriche Greche. Is this atonal music?


I can't speak for your example, but the few scores I've seen of Dallapiccola are 12-tone, but are designed to be less severe harmonically and yes more lyrical (not sure I'd say "melodic")


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Nawdry said:


> What is mystifying to me is why composers with excellent melodic creativity (Stravinsky, Piston, Copland, etc.) would depart (even if only temporarily) from tonality to constrain themselves within the rigidity and constrictions of the "atonal"/serial regimen. A thought that has occurred to me is that perhaps, for whatever in particular they were trying to express, this regimen might be uniquely effective: ideas, feelings, sensations of confusion, neurosis, agitation, discomfort, dementia, disorientation, insanity, anxiety, distraction, oneirism, trauma, fear, horror, terror, or similar conditions. The need for this might occur in an entire work, a section of a work, or perhaps a transitional segment.


I provided an answer for this question in 2013: https://www.talkclassical.com/25847-tips-help-appreciate-atonal.html#post468828


----------



## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

arpeggio said:


> I provided an answer for this question in 2013: https://www.talkclassical.com/25847-tips-help-appreciate-atonal.html#post468828


Thanks for this link. I've been perusing the comments ...


----------



## Nawdry (Dec 27, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> Listen to Dallapiccola's Lyriche Greche. Is this atonal music? Because it has some fabulous melodies. Dallapiccola was a great melodist. This is the one to try
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dallapiccola-Works-Voice-Ensemble-Version/dp/B00JX0I1KY


Thanks for your comments, and the link. I haven't checked out the Amazon link yet, but I found a YouTube of the work which included the actual score to follow along. Still working on this ..


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Barraqué is a composer like Varèse or Webern in the sense that his output is quite small (it fits on three discs) and is a document of a kind of obsessive devotion to a particular and indeed peculiar philosophy of music. I found listening through his stuff quite fascinating a few years back, I should do it again some time.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Crudblud said:


> Barraqué is a composer like Varèse or Webern in the sense that his output is quite small (it fits on three discs) and is a document of a kind of obsessive devotion to a particular and indeed peculiar philosophy of music. I found listening through his stuff quite fascinating a few years back, I should do it again some time.


I find *Jean Barraqué* to be a very fascinating composer. I have the 3CD CPO set and am saddened by the fact that he could not get further in completing his four part major series _La Mort de Virgile_ before his death.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I find *Jean Barraqué* to be a very fascinating composer. I have the 3CD CPO set and am saddened by the fact that he could not get further in completing his four part major series _La Mort de Virgile_ before his death.


I think there is some sadness in it for us as listeners, but also a kind of joy in having such a goal to strive for to the very end of one's life for him as a composer. To be sustained creatively by a single project for life is a rare and precious thing. However, his death was surely premature, he can only have been in his fifties at the most, I think.

In addition to that CPO set I have the Henck recording of the Piano Sonata on ECM somewhere around here. I think I'll give that one a listen before digging into the larger body of work again.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Crudblud said:


> I think there is some sadness in it for us as listeners, but also a kind of joy in having such a goal to strive for to the very end of one's life for him as a composer. To be sustained creatively by a single project for life is a rare and precious thing. However, his death was surely premature, he can only have been in his fifties at the most, I think.
> 
> In addition to that CPO set I have the Henck recording of the Piano Sonata on ECM somewhere around here. I think I'll give that one a listen before digging into the larger body of work again.


I thought the same thing, how ennobling it is for all of us, that he had such a goal. I also have that ECM disc - it's very good.


----------



## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Marcin Stańczyk
Wojciech Błażejczyk
Mamoru Fujieda
Liza Lim
Linda Buckley
Clara Iannotta
Gunnar Andreas Kristinsson
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Jörg Widmann
Michael Jarrell
Philippe Hersant
Eliane Radigue
Heinz Holliger 
Michael Hersch
Ondřej Adámek
Gustavo Díaz-Jerez


----------



## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Crudblud said:


> Barraqué is a composer like Varèse or Webern in the sense that his output is quite small (it fits on three discs) and is a document of a kind of obsessive devotion to a particular and indeed peculiar philosophy of music. I found listening through his stuff quite fascinating a few years back, I should do it again some time.


Have not seen you in a few years. Welcome back.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Have not seen you in a few years. Welcome back.


Hello! I won't take up the thread with my return or whatever attention it might be due(?), but it's nice to see you as well.


----------



## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

SanAntone said:


> I thought the same thing, how ennobling it is for all of us, that he had such a goal. I also have that ECM disc - it's very good.


I ended up at the Concerto. Now that is a brilliant piece. The fluidity with which the sound seems to flow between the different groups is incredible.


----------



## allaroundmusicenthusiast (Jun 3, 2020)

Had Barraqué lived a bit longer he would be considered one of the most important composers of the 20th century, love his music to bits


----------

