# Any interest in an American 100?



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Any interest in having a top 100 American classical works thread along the lines of Turnabout Vox's String Quartet 100+ thread?

I thought I might organise a similar undertaking and that a thread based on nationality rather than genre might be entertaining - although restricting it to 'classical' - whatever that means - might prove too restrictive in the context of American music. 

Originally I was thinking about a top 100 English works, but as I know less about American 'classical' music this seemed potentially more interesting. By American I mean any US born composer - discounting any who moved to the US in later life.

If there is any interest I could organise this in the new year. Any thoughts?


----------



## Guest (Dec 22, 2014)

You could certainly do it, but not without some griping from fans of every other country's musical output 

Also, America is an odd case, with such a skewed proportion of its great output being modern and contemporary. You run the risk of it being a bit of an embarrassing list with nothing but Copland, Barber, Gershwin, and Ives dominating the front end, and I wouldn't be surprised if, even here, John Williams could get more votes than anything by Elliott Carter.

Edit: The point of this post was to point out potential stumbling blocks, not to say I wouldn't participate willingly <3


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

There is probably enough rep, most of it from the 20th century or later, but one need not stray from 'classical' to reach 100 very decent pieces (Ives wrote over 100 songs, for instance.)

John Williams -- fine, but please, only the 'certifiably classical' pieces, the 'Cello Concerto, the Tuba Concerto, etc. -- comprising a tiny bit of his entire output; besides, there is already a film score category, where most of Williams' works should genuinely be listed (I include the concert suite from film scores there.)

But by all means, a list of works by American composers, _those born in the country, not Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Korngold, etc._ while maybe Lukas Foss, who immigrated in his early youth and for whom much of his training -- and I believe all of his works -- took place in the good ole U.S. of A. (There are a number of Foss pieces I would be happy to mention, they are that good

Since the American history of classical music is rather short in comparison to Europe, I would strongly urge you to not 'break it into category,' i.e. symphonic music, chamber music, vocal music, etc. should all be part and parcel of "100 American works."

But, "Build it and they will come," for people in general and our TC membership seem near crazed happy to make lists, and rank, music and composers 

The happenstance that the majority of composers and works will be from the 20th century or contemporary is not any kind of problem, nor should it be, any more than the happenstance of Europe having a longer history is a problem.


----------



## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

I'll play......


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I think one thing should be kept in mind here. These top 50/100/150 lists are "recommended" works and should be viewed as such. Sure, they're opinionated "best" lists but are labeled as, and understood as recommended works. Approaching it from the standpoint of having the top 100 recommended works from American composers, according to participating members, I see it as a fine idea. I've turned to other such lists frequently in my exploration of new music. Anyone wanting to explore American composers may thank you. The Opera and String Ensemble lists have proven most beneficial to me, thus far. I don't have nearly enough knowledge to recommend many works for your project but I'll benefit from the fruits of your labor for sure.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Well we have some interest. 

I'll take PeteB's point about opening up the criteria to allow for composers who while not American born became American in their youth. I'm just anxious to exclude the many big names who moved to America in their maturity. 

More of a problem might be defining what genre's are acceptable. Should we allow the like's of West Side Story and other musicals composed by composers who have some classical credentials?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm interested. I could rattle off quite a few significant American works.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LancsMan said:


> Well we have some interest.
> 
> I'll take PeteB's point about opening up the criteria to allow for composers who while not American born became American in their youth. I'm just anxious to exclude the many big names who moved to America in their maturity.
> 
> More of a problem might be defining what genre's are acceptable. Should we allow the like's of West Side Story and other musicals composed by composers who have some classical credentials?


Me, I'd prefer the musical theater works left to the musical theater / or film score genres. In the case of Bernstein, West side story has a jazz-inflected 12-tone fugue, but that does not make it for me an automatic shoo-in as classical. It _is_ musical theater, ala American style Broadway show, and Lenny knowing his stuff, he wrote a musical theater piece, not a symphony, serenade for violin and orchestra, etc.

I'm even less than ambivalent about Gershwin's _Rhapsody in Blue,_ for example, which I consider 'not classical,' while I would tag Porgy and Bess or the Concerto in G as classical.

Sondheim, good as he is, or as notably more 'musically sophisticated' his works may by, is still a show music composer.


----------



## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I say no because most great composers are not American.Few composers in american made great music like GERSHWIN & JOPLIN .


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I can think of a number of great composers besides the usual suspects, so I may be up for it.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

mtmailey said:


> I say no because most great composers are not American.Few composers in american made great music like GERSHWIN & JOPLIN .


I was thinking this exact same thing, except the exact opposite.


----------



## QuietGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

Yes, absolutely. I'm in. I'll start compiling my list ...


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

It seems everyone's list of what's acceptable is different to mine. If this happen's there'll probably have to be a list of criteria.


----------



## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

How about Jazz works?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Just to broaden it s little, how about top 100+ pieces by Composers from English Speaking Countries? We have a large population on TC from the U. S. of A, the U. K. Of GB&NI, The N. Z. of.....LOTR(?) and the.....A. U. of S....?

USA
UK
NZ
Australia
and even in Canada, there are recommendations from people on TC I've seen for composers in these countries which would be nice to see listed together. Often many of us have some sense of pride to show off our composers from the countries we live in. So, instead of just being the USA crowd of composers and their fans, we might get mroe enthusiasm for an English Speaking Countries of Composers list in general.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I think it's a goer - if Gottschalk is a theoretical starting point that gives us over 150 years to play with so I cant see any problem collectively coming up with a Top 100 from within that timeframe, even if, say, 90% of the selected works are likely to be from Ives' time onwards. In fact, the completed list should be a veritable cornucopia of diversity that should emphasise how rich the US classical legacy has been in a comparatively short space of time.

Go USA!


----------



## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Just to broaden it s little, how about top 100+ pieces by Composers from English Speaking Countries? We have a large population on TC from the U. S. of A, the U. K. Of GB&NI, The N. Z. of.....LOTR(?) and the.....A. U. of S....?
> 
> USA
> UK
> ...


Maybe after the USA list has been compiled, someone could arrange for a "Commonwealth Country Collection."


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I'm waiting for the North Korea best 100.

I believe the entire series will be released on Ob-Naxos.


----------



## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

PetrB said:


> But by all means, a list of works by American composers, _those born in the country, not Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Korngold, etc._


Oh gosh, I was really looking forward to nominating those quintessentially American works like Rachmaninov's _Symphonic Dances_, Dvorak's _American Quartet_ and Schoenberg's piano concerto.

Ferde Grofe's _Grandy Canyon Suite_ will have to do.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Skilmarilion said:


> Oh gosh, I was really looking forward to nominating those quintessentially American works like Rachmaninov's _Symphonic Dances_, Dvorak's _American Quartet_ and Schoenberg's piano concerto.
> 
> Ferde Grofe's _Grandy Canyon Suite_ will have to do.


I could possibly be in a similar position with Hindemith and Korngold but I agree with the condition that the composer has to be US-born/raised - unfortunately, cosmopolitanism/exile/change of nationality is something of a minefield when trying to conduct a list along national lines even if a composer moved from his/her home country out of necessity.


----------



## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm in.

Since my tastes tend to run in music from the 20th and 21st centuries, I can come up with plenty.


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

So when do I start?


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

I'll try and kick this off the first or second week in the new year. 

As I was thinking of an English list at first so ComposerAvanteGarde's idea of a list from all English speaking countries has some appeal - but surely it would be too wide to be easily manageable? At least with American music you have quite a tight time frame. Maybe I'll look at the idea of an English / British list after completing this one.

More of an issue for me is defining the acceptable genre. We could take any genre of 'American' music thrown at us by the 'Talk Classical' membership relying on their good taste. Or reject popular, musicals and jazz as not belonging. I've no strong opinion on this but would be somewhat dismayed to end up with a list of 50% non classical? 

Whose for keeping this strictly classical and whose for opening it up?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

^^^Okay. No pressure!!


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Just to broaden it s little, how about top 100+ pieces by Composers from English Speaking Countries? We have a large population on TC from the U. S. of A, the U. K. Of GB&NI, The N. Z. of.....LOTR(?) and the.....A. U. of S....?
> 
> USA
> UK
> ...


I don't know about anyone else but I think this is a great idea...


----------



## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

I would be interested in an all American list because as pointed out, you really have to pull from a modern pool. When people think of Classical Music, they usually don't think of Americans.

I know Leonard Bernstein's works inside out and I know a good deal from Copland and a few others that Bernstein championed, but it would be interesting to learn more about American Classical Music because most people probably don't know much about it.

Edit: I also was going to say that while I do think maybe film scores should be left out, I do think some of the Jazz/Classical stuff should be in there because I think that was kind of an important part of what some of the American composers did was to blend some of that American Jazz music into Classical Ideas. I wouldn't include a straight Jazz work like Take Five from Dave Brubeck but I could see where maybe some Gershwin or even some Of Bernstein's Jazzy stuff could be in there.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

We did this in another forum. Because of the difficulties with immigrant composers, especially in the first half of the 20th century, composers were limited to those born in the US or lands that would later become the US. All the top-ten compositions ended up being 20th century except (maybe) Ives #2.


----------



## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I wouldn't personally worry about classifications or genres. If enough people nominate a work for it to appear on the list then the consensus has spoken.


----------



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

I do not mean to slow down the hype, but worth considering: The Top 100 SQ nomination/voting process has slowed considerably these past few weeks. That is, we are definitely seeing fewer contributors than when it first started. As we go further, more _unpopular_ or at least _less renown_ (read: modern) works are nominated and thus voters who were participating previously are now less inclined to vote because they have not heard the music or are otherwise unfamiliar with the piece. And these are string quartets!

I cannot imagine carrying an effective majority through (at least) ten weeks to put together the top 100 American works. That list is far more narrow than the quartets. I could see a few posters dominating the latter elections -- and is that a top recommended list?

Not saying this should/could not happen, but just felt I would bring up the point re diminishing returns.


----------



## Guest (Dec 23, 2014)

Only one hundred?

Really?

Would that include Jon Christopher Nelson's _objet sonore / objet cinétique?_ Michael Boyd's _Bit of nostalgia...?_ David Tudor's _Neural Synthesis?_ Alice Shield's _Coyote?_

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Avey said:


> I do not mean to slow down the hype, but worth considering: The Top 100 SQ nomination/voting process has slowed considerably these past few weeks. That is, we are definitely seeing fewer contributors than when it first started. As we go further, more _unpopular_ or at least _less renown_ (read: modern) works are nominated and thus voters who were participating previously are now less inclined to vote because they have not heard the music or are otherwise unfamiliar with the piece. And these are string quartets!
> 
> I cannot imagine carrying an effective majority through (at least) ten weeks to put together the top 100 American works. That list is far more narrow than the quartets. I could see a few posters dominating the latter elections -- and is that a top recommended list?
> 
> Not saying this should/could not happen, but just felt I would bring up the point re diminishing returns.


How much does it matter if the later stages are dominated by a few posters - the top of the list will be representative of wider tastes and the bottom may be useful for those who want to try unfamiliar music. I must admit I'm coming at this with a rather narrow knowledge of American music myself. I am much more familiar with English music!.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> I don't know about anyone else but I think this is a great idea...


The idea of a top list of the music of the English Speaking Countries (very Churchillian) does sound fun. But the time frame may be too wide to be easily manageable.

I could follow up at a later date with similar list of British music (and maybe include the British commonwealth - who says the British Empire is dead!)


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

LancsMan said:


> The idea of a top list of the music of the English Speaking Countries (very Churchillian) does sound fun. But the time frame may be too wide to be easily manageable.
> 
> I could follow up at a later date with similar list of British music (and maybe include the British commonwealth - who says the British Empire is dead!)


May I ask what you mean by 'time frame'? The only definitions I could think of were the wide-ranging dates of the music and the amount of time taken by the project. Since neither of those are really problems, what do you mean? Just for clarification.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I wouldn't be any fun...I don't go much beyond Barber, Carter, Hovhaness, Wuorinen, Rzewski, Gershwin, LB, Copland, Ives.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> May I ask what you mean by 'time frame'? The only definitions I could think of were the wide-ranging dates of the music and the amount of time taken by the project. Since neither of those are really problems, what do you mean? Just for clarification.


If the period is over several centuries you tend to find one period much more popular, and this can lead to the choices not being representative of the whole timeframe. Maybe not a problem unless you are trying to get such a representative list.

There may be ways round this - for instance having a series of voting rounds each covering a different period or different genre. But it would need some thought.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> I wouldn't be any fun...I don't go much beyond Barber, Carter, Hovhaness, Wuorinen, Rzewski, Gershwin, LB, Copland, Ives.


You already seem to be way ahead of my knowledge!


----------



## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

LancsMan said:


> If the period is over several centuries you tend to find one period much more popular, and this can lead to the choices not being representative of the whole timeframe. Maybe not a problem unless you are trying to get such a representative list.
> 
> There may be ways round this - for instance having a series of voting rounds each covering a different period or different genre. But it would need some thought.


I agree that it may need some thought, but if one period is more popular, isn't that just the way it is? The list is going to be subjective however you compile. It's not an objective list but rather a list of _recommended_ works. Just saying.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Avey said:


> I do not mean to slow down the hype, but worth considering: The Top 100 SQ nomination/voting process has slowed considerably these past few weeks. That is, we are definitely seeing fewer contributors than when it first started. As we go further, more _unpopular_ or at least _less renown_ (read: modern) works are nominated and thus voters who were participating previously are now less inclined to vote because they have not heard the music or are otherwise unfamiliar with the piece. And these are string quartets!
> 
> I cannot imagine carrying an effective majority through (at least) ten weeks to put together the top 100 American works. That list is far more narrow than the quartets. I could see a few posters dominating the latter elections -- and is that a top recommended list?
> 
> Not saying this should/could not happen, but just felt I would bring up the point re diminishing returns.


So, why does this have to be 'an effective majority' thing if venturing to produce a list of the better 100 pieces of American classical rep?

Leave it to those who know it, not just of it. I often wonder about those other lists and the general voting, too, i.e. pieces people the majority know are voted for over other great rep with which they are less familiar, or not at all familiar.... or do voters random check some items like taking a one out of four chance on a multiple choice exam -- which I think actually happens more often than some would care to think about.

Is there any worth to a "top 100 American works" list which has, say, Barber's _Adagio for Strings_ at the top of its list -- merely because the vast majority of participants know it? I think not.

This gets to the question of if making these lists is more a self-indulgent party for the fun of the participants only, or a list being made with some intent of being integral, somewhat complete, _in order that it be more truly and responsibly informed, and genuinely informative._


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

PetrB said:


> So, why does this have to be 'an effective majority' thing if venturing to produce a list of the better 100 pieces of American classical rep?
> 
> Leave it to those who know it, not just of it. I often wonder about those other lists and the general voting, too, i.e. pieces people the majority know are voted for over other great rep with which they are less familiar, or not at all familiar.... or do voters random check some items like taking a one out of four chance on a multiple choice exam -- which I think actually happens more often than some would care to think about.
> 
> ...


I accept your criticisms, PetrB. The Top 100+ String Quartet recommendations list (to take an example) is undoubtedly a (self-)indulgent party for the fun of the participants (is there a problem with that?) but there is some serious intention behind it as well. Not, I think, speaking for myself, an intention to make a complete, integral or definitive list (we are only working with 40 or so participants, albeit that some are moderately (or more) well informed and have listened extensively).

My intention is to introduce and be introduced to favourite, enjoyable and / or stimulating new works. I think the thread is encouraging people to focus their listening and their discoveries on this genre, for a few weeks. I think that's enough, and stands on its own as a legitimate reason for doing it.

It may also be useful to people who stumble across it in the archives seeking some ideas about what might have been thought worth listening to by a variety of listeners, which is why I value the input of all participants to the thread.

To come to the present proposal, my regret is that I will have little to contribute to an 'American 100 works' list as I know so few, but I may well get some suggestions for future listening from it.


----------



## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

Any update on this?

Anyways, in my opinion, combining American music with other Anglophone countries' seems kind of weird, since England has a much different musical culture than the United States, etc. Also, I personally would prefer to restrict works to classical works and not include jazz, etc. There are, of course, borderline works which people will have to agree upon, but as this is a classical music forum, it makes more sense to me to only include classical works. Classical pieces with some jazz influences should certainly be fine though.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2015)

How about each person who can provide an American 100 list?

Then we'll have several lists from several people, people who actually know enough things to produce such a list. And do nothing about each list. That is, don't conflate them in any way; just let them be.

Mary Anne Amacher, Sound Characters
George Antheil, Ballet Méchanique
Robert Ashley, In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven There Were Men and Women
Robert Ashley, Wolfman
Jonathan Berger, Meteora
Jonathan Berger, The Lead Plates of the ROM Press
Earle Brown, Octet I
Earle Brown, Four Systems
Cage, Imaginary Landscape no. 1
Cage, Credo in US
Cage, Perilous Night
Cage, 4' 33"
Cage, Cartridge Music
Cage, Etudes Boreales
Cage, Four
Elliott Carter, Double Concerto
Elliott Carter, String quartet no. 4
Elliott Carter, Sonata For Flute, Oboe, Cello & Harpsichord
Barney Childs, Take Five
Barney Childs, Roachville Project
Tony Conrad, Four Violins
Aaron Copland, Grohg
Aaron Copland, Piano Variations
Aaron Copland, Short Symphony
Aaron Copland, Inscape
Aaron Copland, Connotations
Stuart Dempster, In the Great Abbey of Clement VI
Todd Dockstader, Luna Park
Todd Dockstader, Omniphony
Todd Dockstader, Quatermass
Morton Feldman, String Quartet no. 2
Morton Feldman, Crlppled Symmetry
Morton Feldman, Flute and Orchestra
Morton Feldman, Patterns in a Chromatic Field
Philip Glass, La Belle et la Bête
Philip Glass, The Photographer
Andy Hosch, Quelques Sacre du Printemps
Andy Hosch, Ghosts of Spring
Charles Ives, Concord Sonata
Charles Ives, Symphony no. 4
Charles Ives, General William Booth Enters Into Heaven
Charles Ives, Three Places in New England
Donald Knaack, Dance Music
Robert Kurka, The Good Soldier Schweik
Alvin Lucier, I am sitting in a room
Alvin Lucier, Silver Streetcar for the Orchestra
Alvin Lucier, Vespers
Christian Marclay, Records
Christian Marclay (with Otomo Yoshihide), Moving Parts
Christian Marclay (with Yasunao Tone and Christian Wolff), Event
William Mayer, Octagon
Daniel Menche, Screaming Caress
Daniel Menche, The Face of Vehemence
Gordon Mumma, Hornpipe
Gordon Mumma, Megaton for Wm. Burroughs
Jon Christopher Nelson, objet sonore/ objet cinétique
Phill Niblock, Disseminate
Pauline Oliveros, I of IV
Pauline Oliveros (with Stuart Dempster and Panaiotis), Deep Listening
Bob Ostertag, Getting Ahead
Zeena Parkins (with Elliott Sharp), Psycho-Acoustic
Harry Partch, Daphne of the Dunes
Harry Partch, Delusion of the Fury
Harry Partch, Revelation in the Courthouse Park
Harry Partch, Ulysses Departs for the Edge of the World
Walter Piston, Symphony no. 2
Walter Piston, Incredible Flutist (complete ballet)
Steve Reich, Come Out
Steve Reich, Pendulum Music
Steve Reich, Clapping Music
Roger Reynolds, ...the serpent-snapping eye
Roger Reynolds, Coconino... a shattered landscape
Roger Reynolds, Myths
Roger Reynolds, Vertigo
Terry Riley, In C
Terry Riley, A Rainbow in Curved Air
Frederic Rzewski, The People United Will Never Be Defeated
William Schottstaedt, Dinosaur Music
Michael Schumacher, Room Pieces
Michael Schumacher, Filters and Filtered
William Schuman, In Praise of Shahn
Roger Sessions, Piano concerto
Roger Sessions, Symphony no. 3
Roger Sessions, Symphony no. 7
Roger Sessions, Concerto for orchestra
Alice Shields, Coyote
Alice Shields, The Transformation of Ani
Alice Shields, Apocalypse
Doug Theriault, Interface
Doug Theriault, Orange
David Tudor, Rainforest
David Tudor, Neural Synthesis
John Wiese, Circle Snare
John Wiese, Teenage Hallucination
Randy Yau, The Hidden Tongue
La Monte Young, Compositions 1960
La Monte Young, The Well-Tuned Piano
La Monte Young (with Marian Zazeela), Dream House
Z'ev, Symphony no. 2
Z'ev, As/If/When

This is a very personal list, but there's some excuse for that, as I have personally spent a lifetime listening to music.

I had to do a lot of trimming, too, to get this down to one hundred, so I'm hoping that others will step in and supply the pieces I had to delete.


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

North or South America?


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Are we going to start submitting candidates soon?


----------



## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

some guy said:


> Cage, Imaginary Landscape no. 1
> Cage, Credo in US
> Cage, Perilous Night
> Cage, 4' 33"
> ...


I can't agree with 4'33". Like... I make my own 4'33" when I meditate. Sometimes I meditate at home, or in the school computer lab, or in the library, or outside, or at a coffee shop... or I meditate in a group at the zen center. In each of these environments, there is a different sound and atmosphere from the people that are there (or not there). How has Cage achieved anything different?

But I do very much agree with Cartridge Music and Four (as well as the few other number pieces I've heard), and I look forward to hearing the others on your list for the first time.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Hi folks, sorry for the delay in kicking this off properly. I've been a little too busy with Christmas and new year. Intend to kick this off next week.

Thoughts at the moment are that any composer born American (US) or that moved to the US before adult hood should count. I think that's reasonably clear.

As too keeping it classical - I think we should accept any work from a composer loosely considered in the 'classical' arena. So this would allow Gershwin and Bernstein's musicals. 

Thinking of doing this is 10 rounds, choosing 10 works each time. Not sure whether to adopt the voting rules as on the 100+ string quartets thread. 
As an alternative I wondered about each person nominating 5 works for each round. Any work receiving two or more nominations would go through to a vote for that round, with each person voting for their top ten out of the nominated works.


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

I think "American 100" list is a very good idea. I prefer an American-only list, and "any composer born American (US) or that moved to the US before adult hood" seems a good enough criteria. However, how about composers born American and moved overseas before composing their major works? (For instance, Nancarrow, Nancy Van de Vate.)


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Ah! tortkis has just raised a (slight?) complication. I'm inclined to allow American born composers who moved overseas before composing major works. This is somewhat inconsistent - but is this a serious issue? Anyone have a strong opinion on this?


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mtmailey said:


> I say no because most great composers are not American.Few composers in american made great music like GERSHWIN & JOPLIN .


Well, we won't be seeing you making any more recommendations than the two composers you named above, will we?

It seems, other than by that opinion, or a lack of awareness of what else is good and great from a pretty large body of music by American composers together conspire to prevent you from adding much more than you already have.

If your entire compass for 'great' is but Gershwin and Joplin, which are both borderline classical / pop (as great as they really are), I wouldn't expect of you to be interested or care about the rest of the more 'serious' classical -- from any country, time or place.

But, you know, a good deal of the musical world and classical music fans hold an opinion quite the opposite of yours, so relax, just watch, and see what you think when a list is compiled and the results are in.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LancsMan said:


> Ah! tortkis has just raised a (slight?) complication. I'm inclined to allow American born composers who moved overseas before composing major works. This is somewhat inconsistent - but is this a serious issue? Anyone have a strong opinion on this?


There is a fuzzy line. Lukas Foss was born German, had some training there as a child, but immigrated to the states when he was but a youth, the rest of his training and influences, European or other, happening through his training and associations with other musicians in the states. Sure, he was not and never could be thought of as entirely having only "an American sensibility," but that is certainly part of the goal of 'keeping it American.'

I can not even think who you are thinking of, American who left the country and was a composer who resided, long-term, elsewhere. But if that move was in early childhood, that composer becoming, as it were more ________ in both thinking and style than "American." than, well no  It is a sticky and / or hazy area. I don't think of Ernst Bloch, Ingolf Dahl, Ernst Krenek, Darius Milhaud, Arnold Schoenberg, Igor Stravinsky, Kurt Weill, Erich Wolfgang Korngold (or that other group of Russian and European composers whose careers transferred almost exclusively to writing film scores) and Ernst Toch, to name some of the better known composers, as anything but the expat people and composers they were. Each of those had their full training, early experiences, and in many cases more than a few chapters of their professional careers well established and under way before they moved to the states.

Which composers were you thinking of, anyway?


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Conlon Nancarrow composed most of his major works in Mexico. However, his style is very American (deeply influenced by Jazz), and I would like to regard him as an American composer.

Van de Vate may fall under "hazy" area. She was born in USA but now lives in Austria, and her style may be more European than American.

I cannot think of any other examples, and probably this is not a serious issue. As long as Nancarrow is allowed, I am happy.


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

LancsMan said:


> Ah! tortkis has just raised a (slight?) complication. I'm inclined to allow American born composers who moved overseas before composing major works. This is somewhat inconsistent - but is this a serious issue? Anyone have a strong opinion on this?


No objection from me - I'd argue that Antheil comes into this category as he wrote much of his early, more radical, material when he was based in Paris.


----------



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I like the idea of an American 100. And sticking to the criteria mentioned above makes sense to me: composers born in the USA or immigrated before they began a career composing, and including classical - like music of Gershwin and Bernstein. 

Concerns I have
However, some of Gerswhin's songs aren't really classical at all. 
I'd prefer the same voting rules as other lists compiled here on TC
I'd prefer to compile only one list at a time, and we're still working on the string quartet list.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

LancsMan said:


> Thinking of doing this is 10 rounds, choosing 10 works each time. Not sure whether to adopt the voting rules as on the 100+ string quartets thread.
> As an alternative I wondered about each person nominating 5 works for each round. Any work receiving two or more nominations would go through to a vote for that round, with each person voting for their top ten out of the nominated works.


I think your alternative is a better option. Anyone following the string quartets thread knows I've moaned about the failings of the usual voting rules once the "obvious" choices have gone. This way seems to allow anything to get nominated but then requires consensus rather than "first past the post".
I'd be inclined to allow people to nominate more works (10, say), which would give more variety; and perhaps correspondingly increase the number of nominations required to go through to the vote, too (depends on how many works get nominated, I suppose).


----------



## Bruce (Jan 2, 2013)

Looks like I discovered this thread rather late, but after reading the comments, I'm in. Should be fun. Though it look like a bit of work to determine what the criteria should be. My own preference would be works composed while the composer was working in the USA, but it doesn't really matter--whatever you decide, I'll be happy to play along.


----------



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Sorry if this seems off base or otherwise detrimental...

I mentioned, slyly, in the SQ 100+ thread that someone -- note, too, that I would actually be willing to be this "someone," given some guidance, but I lack the seniority and certain respect that others have here -- so, this _someone_ should take on a *Recommended Concertos Thread*.

Why? Well:

1. This is a broad category with _countless_ potential voters, nominations, rankings, opinions, etc.

2. This would be something I expect most TC members to participate in. It is not narrow or limited to any nationality or depth of (aural) knowledge.

3. Honestly, of all the recommended lists TC has, *The Concerto* seems like the next logical step. A popular medium through all eras. No?

Just wanted to put this out in the open.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

American composer Virgil Thomson, said on both what makes it American as well as the quip pretty much a comment on 'the America musical style, that this was simple matter.

"Be born American and write however you like."


----------



## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

Avey said:


> Sorry if this seems off base or otherwise detrimental...
> 
> I mentioned, slyly, in the SQ 100+ thread that someone -- note, too, that I would actually be willing to be this "someone," given some guidance, but I lack the seniority and certain respect that others have here -- so, this _someone_ should take on a *Recommended Concertos Thread*.
> 
> ...


Would be cool, no doubt, although like the quartet project it'll be a case of putting works that are already in existing TC lists into one place. But if others are interested, count me in. 

edit: actually there is no separate list for violin concertos, oddly enough.


----------



## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

This is an interesting idea. My collection of American music is steadily growing. I couldn't provide a 100-work list by myself though. But it might be a good way to discover more off-the-beaten-track music.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bruce said:


> Looks like I discovered this thread rather late, but after reading the comments, I'm in. Should be fun. Though it look like a bit of work to determine what the criteria should be. My own preference would be works composed while the composer was working in the USA, but it doesn't really matter--whatever you decide, I'll be happy to play along.


Usually, by the time the criteria are finally arrived at, and yet another weirdly arcane voting system also at long last set in place, I've completely lost interest.

Once glance at TC's chamber music recommended list, and its initial 'let's do this' -- and it's multitude of pages of entries of (brace yourself) _debate and various notions of 'what defines chamber music'_ is a patented lesson in how not to go about it


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Usually, by the time the criteria are finally arrived at, and yet another weirdly arcane voting system also at long last set in place, I've completely lost interest.
> 
> Once glance at TC's chamber music recommended list, and its initial 'let's do this' -- and it's multitude of pages of entries of (brace yourself) _debate and various notions of 'what defines chamber music'_ is a patented lesson in how not to go about it


Mmm. I suppose it's possible you mean to include me and the string quartet list thread in this generic observation, as there isn't actually a specific TC chamber music recommended list . Well, chacun a son gout, is all I can say. If it's going to be done it has to be done in some way or other, and somebody won't like the way it's being done, to be sure.

It's fun to do, and to participate in, _if_ you like that sort of thing!


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

senza sordino suggested not overlapping with TurnaboutVox's string quartet list. Anyone else think I should hold on launching this until the completion of the string quartet 100+ list? 

I'm quite happy to bide my time if people prefer.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

LancsMan said:


> senza sordino suggested not overlapping with TurnaboutVox's string quartet list. Anyone else think I should hold on launching this until the completion of the string quartet 100+ list?
> 
> I'm quite happy to bide my time if people prefer.


I say go ahead and do it


----------



## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

The only real problem I can anticipate is people interested in both projects having insufficient time to listen to the works nominated in both threads.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

TurnaboutVox said:


> The only real problem I can anticipate is people interested in both projects having insufficient time to listen to the works nominated in both threads.


I tend to agree with this thought. Generally many of us interested in the lists spend a significant amount of time listening to works we're not familiar with as well as works we know so we can order our nominations. I think starting the American list before the other is finished may cause some to decide not to participate due to lack of time.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2015)

Insufficient time to listen to music.

Is that really a thing?


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

some guy said:


> Insufficient time to listen to music.
> 
> Is that really a thing?


I solved that problem by listening to 90% of my classical music on an iPhone and iPod touch so I have music everywhere I go.


----------



## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

arcaneholocaust said:


> You could certainly do it, but not without some griping from fans of every other country's musical output
> 
> Also, America is an odd case, with such a skewed proportion of its great output being modern and contemporary. You run the risk of it being a bit of an embarrassing list with nothing but Copland, Barber, Gershwin, and Ives dominating the front end, and I wouldn't be surprised if, even here, John Williams could get more votes than anything by Elliott Carter.
> 
> Edit: The point of this post was to point out potential stumbling blocks, not to say I wouldn't participate willingly <3


Works by Gershwin,Joplin & Beach should be on the list but i think it not going to be easy getting 100 maybe less than that.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

mtmailey said:


> Works by Gershwin,Joplin & Beach should be on the list but i think it not going to be easy getting 100 maybe less than that.


Wikipedia's chronological list of American Classical composers -- _partial and by no means complete._

*Baroque*
Charles Theodore Pachelbel (1690-1750)

*Classical era*
John Antes (1740-1811)
William Billings (1746-1800)
Justin Morgan (1747-1798)
Raynor Taylor (1747-1825)
Supply Belcher (1751-1836)
John Christopher Moller (1755-1803)
Alexander Reinagle (1756-1809)
Daniel Read (1757-1836)
Samuel Adams Holyoke (1762-1820)
Oliver Holden (1765-1844)
Benjamin Carr (1768-1831)
James Hewitt (1770-1827)

*Romantic*
Anthony Philip Heinrich (1781-1861)
Lowell Mason (1792-1872)
Francis Boott (1813-1904)
William Henry Fry (1813-1864)
Richard Storrs Willis (1819-1900)
George Frederick Bristow (1825-1898)
Edmond Dédé (1827-1903)
Charles Lucien Lambert (1828-1896)
J. C. D. Parker (1828-1916)
Louis Moreau Gottschalk (1829-1869)
William Mason (1829-1908)
Charles Crozat Converse (1832-1918)
Benjamin Johnson Lang (1837-1909)
Frederic Archer (1838-1901)
Eugene Thayer (1838-1889)
Dudley Buck (1839-1909)
John Knowles Paine (1839-1906)
Benjamin Dwight Allen (1841-1914)
William Gilchrist (1846-1916)
Silas G. Pratt (1846-1916)
John Thomas Douglass (1847-1886)
Frederick Grant Gleason (1848-1903)
William Burdine Blake, Sr. (1852-1938)
Emma Roberto Steiner (1852-1929)
Arthur Foote (1853-1937)
Edwin Arthur Jones (1853-1911)
George Whitefield Chadwick (1854-1931)
John Philip Sousa (1854-1932)
Johann H. Beck (1856-1924)
George Strong (1856-1948)
Arthur H. Bird (1856-1923)
Humphrey John Stewart (1856-1932)
Edgar Stillman Kelley (1857-1944)
Henry Schoenefeld (1857-1936)
Timothee Adamowski (1858-1943)
Harry Rowe Shelley (1858-1947)
Frank Van der Stucken (1858-1929)
Victor Herbert (1859-1924)
Reginald De Koven (1859-1920)
Edward MacDowell (1860-1908)
Charles Martin Loeffler (1861-1935)
Walter Damrosch (1862-1950)
Henry Holden Huss (1862-1953)
Ethelbert Nevin (1862-1901)
Horatio Parker (1863-1919)
Sidney Homer (1864?-1953)
Jean Paul Kürsteiner (1864-1943)
Harvey Worthington Loomis (1865-1930)
Harry Burleigh (1866-1949)
Carl Valentin Wunderle (1866-1944)
Amy Beach (1867-1944)
Margaret Ruthven Lang (1867-1972)
Charles Sanford Skilton (1868-1941)
Harry Lawrence Freeman (1869-1954)
Victor Harris (1869-1943)

*Modern/Contemporary*
Joseph Carl Breil (1870-1926)
Howard Brockway (1870-1951)
Louis Coerne (1870-1922)
Henry Eichheim (1870-1942)
Frederick Converse (1871-1940)
Henry Kimball Hadley (1871-1937)
Arthur Nevin (1871-1943)
Arthur Farwell (1872-1952)
Rubin Goldmark (1872-1936)
Edward Burlingame Hill (1872-1960)
Daniel Gregory Mason (1873-1953)
Mary Carr Moore (1873-1957)
Fitzhugh Andrews (1873-1961)
Charles Ives (1874-1954)
Bert R. Anthony (1876-1923)
Frederick Ayres (1876-1926)
John Alden Carpenter (1876-1951)
Carl Ruggles (1876-1971)
Blair Fairchild (1877-1933)
Frank La Forge (1879-1953)
Ernest Bloch (1880-1959)
Arthur Shepherd (1880-1958)
Charles Wakefield Cadman (1881-1946)
Richard Hageman (1881-1966)
Paul Hastings Allen (1882-1952)
Marion Bauer (1882-1955)
Seth Bingham (1882-1972)
Ralph Lyford (1882-1927)
Charles Tomlinson Griffes (1884-1920)
Louis Gruenberg (1884-1964)
Wallingford Riegger (1885-1961)
Deems Taylor (1885-1966)
John J. Becker (1886-1961)
Edward Joseph Collins (1886-1951)
Joseph Lamb (1887-1960)
Florence Price (1887-1953)
Ernst Toch (1887-1964)
Philip Greeley Clapp (1888-1954)
Philip James (1890-1975)
Frederick Jacobi (1891-1952)
Katherine K. Davis (1892-1980)
Ferde Grofé (1892-1972)
Douglas Moore (1893-1969)
Leo Ornstein (1893-2002)
Bernard Rogers (1893-1968)
John Laurence Seymour (1893-1986)
Robert Russell Bennett (1894-1981)
Walter Piston (1894-1976)
Mark Wessel (1894-1973)
Leo Sowerby (1895-1968)
William Grant Still (1895-1978)
Howard Hanson (1896-1981)
Leroy Robertson (1896-1971)
Roger Sessions (1896-1985)
Virgil Thomson (1896-1989)
Jaromír Weinberger (1896-1967)
Henry Cowell (1897-1965)
Erich Korngold (1897-1957)
Stanley R. Avery (1897-1967)
Quincy Porter (1897-1966)
Ernst Bacon (1898-1990)
Avery Claflin (1898-1979)
George Gershwin (1898-1937)
Roy Harris (1898-1979)
John Woods Duke (1899-1984)
George Frederick McKay (1899-1970)
Randall Thompson (1899-1984)
George Antheil (1900-1959)
Aaron Copland (1900-1990)
Ernst Krenek (1900-1991)
Otto Luening (1900-1996)
Elinor Remick Warren (1900-1991)
Alfredo Antonini (1901-1983)
Ruth Crawford Seeger (1901-1953)
Harry Partch (1901-1974)
Celius Dougherty (1902-1986)
John Vincent (1902-1977)
Meredith Willson (1902-1984)
Stefan Wolpe (1902-1972)
Vernon Duke (1903-1969)
Vittorio Giannini (1903-1966)
Undine Smith Moore (1904-1989)
Marc Blitzstein (1905-1964)
Paul Creston (1906-1985)
Ross Lee Finney (1906-1997)
Miriam Gideon (1906-1996)
Hubert Klyne Headley (1906-1996)
Normand Lockwood (1906-2002)
Willson Osborne (1906-1979)
Louise Talma (1906-1996)
David Tamkin (1906-1975)
David Van Vactor (1906-1994)
Franz Waxman (1906-1967)
Alec Wilder (1907-1980)
Leroy Anderson (1908-1975)
Elliott Carter (1908-2012)
John Verrall (1908-2001)
Charles Naginski (1909-1940)
Elie Siegmeister (1909-1991)
Samuel Barber (1910-1981)
Paul Bowles (1910-1999)
William Schuman (1910-1992)
Bernard Herrmann (1911-1975)
Alan Hovhaness (1911-2000)
Gian Carlo Menotti (1911-2007)
Julia Smith (1911-1989)
Wayne Barlow (1912-1996)
Arthur Berger (1912-2003)
John Cage (1912-1992)
Don Gillis (1912-1978)
Conlon Nancarrow (1912-1997)
Hugo Weisgall (1912-1997)
Milton Adolphus (1913-1988)
Margaret Bonds (1913-1972)
Henry Brant (1913-2008)
Norman Dello Joio (1913-2008)
Alvin Etler (1913-1973)
Vivian Fine (1913-2000)
Clare Grundman (1913-1996)
Morton Gould (1913-1996)
Jerome Moross (1913-1983)
Gardner Read (1913-2005)
Cecil Effinger (1914-1990)
Irving Fine (1914-1963)
Roger Goeb (1914-1997)
Alexei Haieff (1914-1994)
Gail Kubik (1914-1984)
David Diamond (1915-2005)
George Perle (1915-2009)
Vincent Persichetti (1915-1987)
Robert Strassburg (1915-2003)
Milton Babbitt (1916-2011)
Ellis B. Kohs (1916-2000)
Ben Weber (1916-1979)
Ruth Shaw Wylie (1916-1989)
Edward T. Cone (1917-2004)
Robert Erickson (1917-1997)
Lou Harrison (1917-2003)
Ulysses Kay (1917-1995)
Robert Ward (1917-2013)
Leonard Bernstein (1918-1990)
Howard Boatwright (1918-1999)
George Rochberg (1918-2005)
Joseph Willard Roosevelt (1918-2008)
Jacob Avshalomov (1919-2013)
Leon Kirchner (1919-2009)
Paul Manz (1919-2009)
Helen Tobias-Duesberg (1919-2010)
Earl Kim (1920-1998)
John La Montaine (1920-2013)
Harold Shapero (born 1920)
Douglas Allanbrook (1921-2003)
Jack Beeson (1921-2010)
William Bergsma (1921-1994)
Karel Husa (born 1921)
Andrew Imbrie (1921-2007)
Ralph Shapey (1921-2002)
Leo Smit (1921-1999)
Romeo Cascarino (1922-2002)
Lukas Foss (1922-2009)
David N. Johnson (1922-1987)
Francis Thorne (born 1922)
George Walker (born 1922)
Ursula Mamlok (born 1923)
Peter Mennin (1923-1983)
Ned Rorem (born 1923)
Daniel Pinkham (1923-2006)
Mel Powell (1923-1998)
Mark Bucci (1924-2002)
Ezra Laderman (born 1924)
Benjamin Lees (1924-2010)
Robert Starer (1924-2001)
Nick Acquaviva (1925-1998)
Robert Beadell (1925-1994)
Frank Lewin (1925-2008)
Kirke Mechem (born 1925)
Gunther Schuller (born 1925)
Paul W. Whear (born 1925)
Earle Brown (1926-2002)
Richard Faith (born 1926)
Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Carlisle Floyd (born 1926)
Lee Hoiby (1926-2011)
Ben Johnston (born 1926)
William O. Smith (born 1926)
David Tudor (1926-1996)
Dominick Argento (born 1927)
John W. Downey (1927-2004)
Donald Erb (1927-2008)
Walter Hartley (born 1927)
Janet Maguire (born 1927)
Salvatore Martirano (1927-1995)
Richard Maxfield (1927-1969)
Richard Swift (1927-2003)
Samuel Adler (born 1928)
Ruth Anderson (born 1928)
T. J. Anderson (born 1928)
James Cohn (born 1928)
Jacob Druckman (1928-1996)
Nicolas Flagello (1928-1994)
Robert Helps (1928-2001)
Thea Musgrave (born 1928)
George Crumb (born 1929)
Leonard Kastle (1929-2011)
Charles Knox (born 1929)
Robert Muczynski (1929-2010)
André Previn (born 1929)
Yehudi Wyner (born 1929)
Robert Ashley (1930-2014)
Larry Austin (born 1930)
Robert Cogan (born 1930)
Frederick A. Fox (born 1931)
Richard Hundley (born 1931)
Alvin Lucier (born 1931)
Peter Westergaard (born 1931)
Donald Martino (1931-2005)
Leslie Adams (born 1932)
Marvin David Levy (born 1932)
Martin Mailman (1932-2000)
Pauline Oliveros (born 1932)
Garland Anderson (1933-2001)
Leonardo Balada (born 1933)
Easley Blackwood, Jr. (born 1933)
Pozzi Escot (born 1933)
Morton Subotnick (born 1933)
Robert T. Anderson (1934-2009)
Benjamin Boretz (born 1934)
Mario Davidovsky (born 1934)
Bernard Rands (born 1934)
James Tenney (1934-2006)
Richard Wernick (born 1934)
Samuel Jones (born 1935)
Terry Riley (born 1935)
Peter Schickele (born 1935)
Charles Shere (born 1935)
Conrad Susa (born 1935)
La Monte Young (born 1935)
Harold Budd (born 1936)
Stuart Dempster (born 1936)
Steve Reich (born 1936)
Robert Suderburg (1936-2013)
Jan Bach (born 1937)
David Del Tredici (born 1937)
Philip Glass (born 1937)
Robert Moran (born 1937)
Maryanne Amacher (1938-2009)
William Bolcom (born 1938)
David Borden (born 1938)
Paul Chihara (born 1938)
Gloria Coates (born 1938)
John Corigliano (born 1938)
Alvin Curran (born 1938)
John Harbison (born 1938)
Frederic Rzewski (born 1938)
Gregory Short (1938-1999)
Harvey Sollberger (born 1938)
Joan Tower (born 1938)
Charles Wuorinen (born 1938)
Jon Appleton (born 1939)
Tom Johnson (born 1939)
Tomas Svoboda (born 1939)
Ellen Taaffe Zwilich (born 1939)
Margaret Brouwer (born 1940)
Adrienne Albert (born 1941)
Roger Lee Hall (born 1942)
Meredith Monk (born 1942)
Robert Morris (born 1943)
Joseph Schwantner (born 1943)
William Albright (1944-1998)
Charles Amirkhanian (born 1945)
Thomas Oboe Lee (born 1945)
Thomas Pasatieri (born 1945)
Peter Lieberson (1946-2011)
Jan Swafford (born 1946)
John Coolidge Adams (born 1947)
Roger Craig Vogel (born 1947)
Thomas Albert (born 1948)
Richard Festinger (born 1948)
William Ackerman (born 1949)
Stephen Paulus (1949-2014)
James Adler (born 1950)
Frank Ferko (born 1950)
Michael Schelle (born 1950)
Craig Russell (born 1951)
Roger Bourland (born 1952)
Robert Een (born 1952)
John Luther Adams (born 1953)
Daniel Asia (born 1953)
Roberto Sierra (born 1953)
Bruce Adolphe (born 1955)
Richard Danielpour (born 1956)
Kenneth Fuchs (born 1956)
Michael Gandolfi (born 1956)
Paul Moravec (born 1957)
Sebastian Currier (born 1959)
Sidney Corbett (born 1960
Thomas Hecht (born 1960)
Edward Knight (born 1961)
Lowell Liebermann (born 1961)
Michael Abels (born 1962)
Mark Adamo (born 1962)
Jennifer Higdon (born 1962)
Tanya Anisimova (born 1966)
Christopher Theofanidis (born 1967)
Peter Boyer (born 1970)
Timothy Archambault (born 1971)
Peter Askim (born 1971)
Jason Wright Wingate (born 1971)
Dan Coleman (born 1972)
Carter Pann (born 1972)
Mark Aanderud (born 1976)
Nico Muhly (born 1981)
Nicholas Urie (born 1985)
Roger Zare (born 1985)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Best regards.


----------



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Wikipedia's chronological list of American Classical composers -- _partial and by no means complete._
> 
> *Baroque*
> Charles Theodore Pachelbel (1690-1750)
> ...


OMG... I hope that we can find a lot of these obscure American composers on Naxos seriously .


----------



## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Wikipedia's chronological list of American Classical composers -- _partial and by no means complete._
> 
> *Baroque*
> Charles Theodore Pachelbel (1690-1750)
> ...


This would be a fine memory test for prospective FBI agents. Gaze for 1 minute. Write down as many composers' names as you can remember.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

albertfallickwang said:


> OMG... I hope that we can find a lot of these obscure American composers on Naxos seriously .


Naxos, Schmaxos, you're going to have to take'em where you find'em. Composers Recordings Incorporated, or more mainstream labels.

Without putting my eyes out, If David Lang, for example, is not on that list, it is a major oversight.

The list has a number of immigrant composers who came to the States with all their training, talent and skills already well-developed (a.o. Bloch and Krenek) Those are the ones I would exclude as being 'American,' (U.S. or any other type, lol) their entire style part of another place and sensibility.

Without them, there are plenty left. Some less obscure than you would think, just not so known outside a smaller circuit of musicians and a few dweebs like me, and there are so many I do not know of, let alone their works.

Of ALL of those, I know of and have heard works only by:
*Baroque*

*Classical era*
William Billings (1746-1800)

*Romantic*
Louis Moreau Gottschalk (1829-1869)
John Knowles Paine (1839-1906)
Arthur Foote (1853-1937)
George Whitefield Chadwick (1854-1931)
John Philip Sousa (1854-1932)
Victor Herbert (1859-1924)
Edward MacDowell (1860-1908)
Charles Martin Loeffler (1861-1935)
Walter Damrosch (1862-1950)
Horatio Parker (1863-1919)
Amy Beach (1867-1944)

*Modern/Contemporary*
Charles Ives (1874-1954)
John Alden Carpenter (1876-1951)
Carl Ruggles (1876-1971)
Ernest Bloch (1880-1959)
Charles Tomlinson Griffes (1884-1920)
Wallingford Riegger (1885-1961)
Deems Taylor (1885-1966)
Ernst Toch (1887-1964)
Ferde Grofé (1892-1972)
Douglas Moore (1893-1969)
Leo Ornstein (1893-2002)
Robert Russell Bennett (1894-1981)
Walter Piston (1894-1976)
Leo Sowerby (1895-1968)
William Grant Still (1895-1978)
Howard Hanson (1896-1981)
Leroy Robertson (1896-1971)
Roger Sessions (1896-1985)
Virgil Thomson (1896-1989)
Henry Cowell (1897-1965)
Erich Korngold (1897-1957)
George Gershwin (1898-1937)
Roy Harris (1898-1979)
George Frederick McKay (1899-1970)
Randall Thompson (1899-1984)
George Antheil (1900-1959)
Aaron Copland (1900-1990)
Ernst Krenek (1900-1991)
Otto Luening (1900-1996)
Ruth Crawford Seeger (1901-1953)
Harry Partch (1901-1974)
Stefan Wolpe (1902-1972)
Vernon Duke (1903-1969)
Marc Blitzstein (1905-1964)
Paul Creston (1906-1985)
Ross Lee Finney (1906-1997)
Franz Waxman (1906-1967)
Alec Wilder (1907-1980)
Leroy Anderson (1908-1975)
Elliott Carter (1908-2012)
 Elie Siegmeister (1909-1991)
Samuel Barber (1910-1981)
Paul Bowles (1910-1999)
William Schuman (1910-1992)
Bernard Herrmann (1911-1975)
Alan Hovhaness (1911-2000)
Gian Carlo Menotti (1911-2007)
Arthur Berger (1912-2003)
John Cage (1912-1992)
Conlon Nancarrow (1912-1997)
Henry Brant (1913-2008)
Norman Dello Joio (1913-2008)
Vivian Fine (1913-2000)
Morton Gould (1913-1996)
Gardner Read (1913-2005)
Irving Fine (1914-1963)
Gail Kubik (1914-1984)
David Diamond (1915-2005)
George Perle (1915-2009)
Vincent Persichetti (1915-1987)
Milton Babbitt (1916-2011)
Lou Harrison (1917-2003)
Ulysses Kay (1917-1995)
Leonard Bernstein (1918-1990)
George Rochberg (1918-2005)
Leon Kirchner (1919-2009)
Harold Shapero (born 1920)
William Bergsma (1921-1994)
Karel Husa (born 1921)
Andrew Imbrie (1921-2007)
Ralph Shapey (1921-2002)
Lukas Foss (1922-2009)
Peter Mennin (1923-1983)
Ned Rorem (born 1923)
Daniel Pinkham (1923-2006)
Benjamin Lees (1924-2010)
Gunther Schuller (born 1925)
Earle Brown (1926-2002)
Morton Feldman (1926-1987)
Carlisle Floyd (born 1926)
Lee Hoiby (1926-2011)
Ben Johnston (born 1926)
David Tudor (1926-1996)
Dominick Argento (born 1927)
Donald Erb (1927-2008)
Samuel Adler (born 1928)
Jacob Druckman (1928-1996)
Nicolas Flagello (1928-1994)
Robert Helps (1928-2001)
Thea Musgrave (born 1928)
George Crumb (born 1929)
Robert Muczynski (1929-2010)
André Previn (born 1929)
Robert Ashley (1930-2014)
Alvin Lucier (born 1931)
Donald Martino (1931-2005)
Pauline Oliveros (born 1932)
Easley Blackwood, Jr. (born 1933)
Morton Subotnick (born 1933)
Mario Davidovsky (born 1934)
James Tenney (1934-2006)
Terry Riley (born 1935)
Peter Schickele (born 1935)
Conrad Susa (born 1935)
La Monte Young (born 1935)
Harold Budd (born 1936)
Steve Reich (born 1936)
David Del Tredici (born 1937)
Philip Glass (born 1937)
Robert Moran (born 1937)
William Bolcom (born 1938)
Gloria Coates (born 1938)
John Corigliano (born 1938)
Alvin Curran (born 1938)
John Harbison (born 1938)
Frederic Rzewski (born 1938)
Joan Tower (born 1938)
Charles Wuorinen (born 1938)
Tom Johnson (born 1939)
Ellen Taaffe Zwilich (born 1939)
Meredith Monk (born 1942)
Joseph Schwantner (born 1943)
Peter Lieberson (1946-2011)
John Coolidge Adams (born 1947)
Thomas Albert (born 1948)
John Luther Adams (born 1953)
Daniel Asia (born 1953)
Roberto Sierra (born 1953)
Richard Danielpour (born 1956)
Paul Moravec (born 1957)
Lowell Liebermann (born 1961)
Mark Adamo (born 1962)
Jennifer Higdon (born 1962)
Nico Muhly (born 1981)

Recently, I stumbled upon the Youtube link for Gardner Read's _Night Flight,_ which I had intermittently been recalling in mind for the past several years! Read also is the author of a tome which is a sort of bible of contemporary instrumental extended techniques and other aspects of advanced contemporary non-traditional musical notation.
_Night Flight_ is a tone-poem, St. Exupery's _Night Flight_ (the pilot / author of _The Little Prince_) the take-off point for the composer (pun intended). St. Exupery for a while piloted a mail route in South America which include flying over the Andes... After so many years in memory, it was nice to hear it, and find it still a pretty cool and nice piece.
Gardner Read ~ Night Flight





I did not notice, but think the Wiki list also omits 
Lucia Dlugoszewski ~ whose beautiful and brilliant _Fire Fragile Flight_ I just posted in Current Listening II.





I had mentioned it chidingly to some guy, who omitted it. He wrote back he had cut it (a favorite of his as well) in order to keep his list down to just 100!

I think you can begin to see the scope of 'what is U.S. American music' and if any are in earnest, there is a ton to know about -- and survey if and where recordings are available -- before willy-nilly making yet another patchy TC list


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

Also please check out The Living Composers Project (USA). I don't know of most of the names, but there are some very good (relatively) young composers.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Just an update on this as I have so far failed to launch my suggested 100 American Talk Classical list.

I am inclined to await the conclusion of the 100+ string quartet list before launching this, as several people have indicated finding time for both may be a problem.

Having just ordered a batch of American pieces this also gives me some time to bump up my own limited stock of American pieces in my collection.

One last point is that there may well be a need to keep this list strictly classical - in other words exclude musicals and film scores from the list. There is a danger that including such popular works may end up dominating the list. 

Apologies to any who are feeling impatient!


----------



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

Strictly classical sounds reasonable, but some music does cross the barrier. Gerswhin and Bernstein music cross this ill defined barrier, I think. Does An American in Paris not qualify? West Side Story the musical doesn't qualify but the West Side Story symphonic suite does? 

And I have a question about Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings. Is his String Quartet a separate piece of music from the Adagio for Strings for String Orchestra? And what about the version for choir, Agnus Dei?

And I'm not sure I know if Korngold qualifies as American. 

This enquiring mind wants to know.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

senza sordino said:


> Strictly classical sounds reasonable, but some music does cross the barrier. Gerswhin and Bernstein music cross this ill defined barrier, I think. Does An American in Paris not qualify? West Side Story the musical doesn't qualify but the West Side Story symphonic suite does?
> 
> And I have a question about Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings. Is his String Quartet a separate piece of music from the Adagio for Strings for String Orchestra? And what about the version for choir, Agnus Dei?
> 
> ...


Defining strictly classical is a bit of an issue. I initially thought leave it up to the voters and allow anything - but I now think this might lead to a preponderance of better known musicals, film scores etc. at the expense of 'classical' American music. As to An American in Paris I'd say that should qualify. The West Side Story symphonic suite leaves me torn - I'm inclined to allow it but is there a danger that would open the floodgates? I suspect that there is no watertight definition. I wondered about having a sub category (or round) specifically for border line works. Probably a bad idea.

As to the problem of versions of a piece like the Barber Adagio, maybe we leave this to the voters? I know I'd wondered about Appalachian Spring where I like the complete ballet as originally scored above the version for fuller orchestra, which misses out some interesting passages. I'm relaxed on this at the moment.

As to Korngold - he doesn't count by my definition of either being born American or moving to America in his youth. You could make an argument for allowing compositions written once a composer became American. This would certainly widen the range of compositions available. I'm not sure if that's a good idea. But I'm open to suggestions.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

LancsMan said:


> As to An American in Paris I'd say that should qualify. The West Side Story symphonic suite leaves me torn - I'm inclined to allow it but is there a danger that would open the floodgates? I suspect that there is no watertight definition. I wondered about having a sub category (or round) specifically for border line works. Probably a bad idea.


A few thoughts, 'how I would recommend going about it,' and not by any means mandates:

Sub Category: in this list = Bad Idea: great idea for another thread / list project.

My way of thinking, West Side Story is a Broadway Musical, no matter how 'sophisticated / symphonic / or who wrote it. A Suite extracted from it is still a suite from a Broadway Musical _just like the concert suite from John Williams' Star Wars is a suite from a film score._ Floodgates, indeed.

Bernstein wrote numbers of straight-ahead classical pieces... including an operetta which I think is his quintessential masterwork: _Candide,_ (there too, original version only There then is the rep from which to choose for that composer.

Far less borderline, but still borderline: Corigliano's written first for a film but then somewhat reworked into _The Red Violin Concerto._

Not in question: _An American in Paris_, composed in 1928, after _A Rhapsody in Blue_ (1924) is sub-titled _"A Symphonic Tone Poem,"_ was written, straight-ahead, as a concert piece.



LancsMan said:


> As to the problem of versions of a piece like the Barber Adagio, maybe we leave this to the voters? I know I'd wondered about Appalachian Spring where I like the complete ballet as originally scored above the version for fuller orchestra, which misses out some interesting passages. I'm relaxed on this at the moment.


Being 'what I am,' I am not 'relaxed' :lol: and seize upon the original, period. (later revised versions, as Stravinsky often did, are another matter.)

The Barber _Adagio,_ for string orchestra and the _Agnus dei_ are what composers do -- i.e. arrange the work for greater exposure and (ahem) revenue; a chamber or full orchestra might program the string orchestra version on a concert as one of three pieces where the other two are full orchestral works --the piece gets wider exposure than would the original string quartet movement, and makes more money for the composer than the string quartet would have generated. [John Adams orchestrated _Shaker Loops_ (originally for seven strings) for a full string orchestra for exactly the same reasons, and is on record as still preferring the original chamber version.]

Imho, Copland's _Appalachian Spring_ is his ne plus ultra masterpiece, but it is only that in its original and full-length version for 13 instruments... not the suite, not the inflated orchestral suite -- also done to satisfy a wider audience and generate income.

Suites extracted? No, then. Suites originally written as suites -- no problem.



LancsMan said:


> As to Korngold:


 Enough right there I agree. Composers like Ernest Bloch, Ernst Krenek, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Korngold, etc. -- any who arrived in the states fully trained with their writing styles and careers well established abroad and who then immigrated to the states are not "American" composers -- the bulk of their musical thinking and style formed 'not American.'

Sure, some genre lines blur, but if in doubt, look them up in what are generally thought of as reliable sources (which generally excludes Wikipedia); even with found differences between some sources one can see after looking at several what the general consensus is 

But getting on with it, well, get on with it.
That thread calling to list classical chamber works with endless town hall style discussion by those who did not know 'what chamber music is' and then struggled, near to interminably, over pages and pages, to arrive at a definition which was readily available -- again -- in dozens of reliable sources easily accessed online, even, is the poster boy of how _not_ to go about it.


----------



## LancsMan (Oct 28, 2013)

Just kicking this one about again. I've not forgotten launching this list, and thanks PetrB for your thoughts.

I decided to refrain from formally launching this whilst the top string quartets list was underway, following on from some potential contributors suggesting that running in parallel would cause them issues. Well it appears there are probably another six or seven weeks before the SQ list finishes. So that would imply a late March start for my American list.

I have no intent to run this above 100 pieces - which implies a run time of about 10 - 11 weeks once launched. However I might have to be away for some period during this time (due to probable vacations). Of course I could postpone this till later in the year after my vacations are over.

Am I right to hang fire until late March on this or should I kick this off in the next week or so, in order to not clash with spring and summer?

I note that there is some talk of other similar lists being launched as well, which does not particularly trouble me.


----------



## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I think it would now be a bit easier to overlap the compilation of two different lists: String Quartets and an American list. The reason I think it might be easier is because the string quartet list is ending and the American list is just starting. The string quartet list is getting difficult because I'm running out of choices as the list gets longer, but starting an American list would be easy because I have so many choices at the beginning. 

An overlap of two to four weeks seems workable for me, but an overlap for the duration of both lists would be much more challenging. This is for me personally, of course. For others here, I'm convinced, working two lists at the same time is much easier.


----------



## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

LancsMan said:


> Just kicking this one about again. I've not forgotten launching this list, and thanks PetrB for your thoughts.
> 
> I decided to refrain from formally launching this whilst the top string quartets list was underway, following on from some potential contributors suggesting that running in parallel would cause them issues. Well it appears there are probably another six or seven weeks before the SQ list finishes. So that would imply a late March start for my American list.
> 
> ...


I say go ahead now if you want to.
I'm glad to hear you've already decided not to go beyond 100 works (though I've not given any thought to what such a list might have to exclude!).
Also, let me reiterate my support for your earlier suggestion regarding how works get nominated and voted for.


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

I would rather do the contemporary classical thing first, personally, but I'll support both. I'll do both at the same time too 

I agree with senza that overlap wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Very few people will be doing much new listening for the first few rounds of a list (and as evidenced by people "running out of nominations, very few people are doing much new listening at all!).


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

I know very little American music, so am unlikely to be making many nominations. However I shall follow closely as this will be a great way to explore new music.
Let's have more threads where people champion their favourites,the debate is positive and more often held in good humour
So I would echo the comments to 'get the show on the road'


----------



## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Haydn man said:


> I know very little American music, so am unlikely to be making many nominations. However I shall follow closely as this will be a great way to explore new music.
> Let's have more threads where people champion their favourites,the debate is positive and more often held in good humour
> So I would echo the comments to 'get the show on the road'


Make nominations as you listen!


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

nathanb said:


> Make nominations as you listen!


That I shall try, just so long as I can listen to enough works and feel confident enough to nominate them.


----------



## tortkis (Jul 13, 2013)

I would like to join whenever it starts, and if I join, I will follow the rule of OP.


----------

