# Wind Ensemble music?



## Warp Zone (May 7, 2013)

What's your opinion on some of the more "sophisticated" music for wind ensemble, such as Incantation and Dance (John Barnes Chance), Lincolnshire Posy (Percy Grainger), or Symphony in B-flat (Paul Hindemith)?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Would you consider Crown Imperial (Walton) or Hammersmith (Holst) "sophisticated"?


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I am not familiar with the works previously listed.

Woodwind instruments, particularly clarinet, are not my favorite timbre when played together. There is something harsh or shrill about them that seems to escalate when in ensemble. However I do enjoy a couple of windy works. One is by Joseph Jongen, the Concerto for Wind Quintet, Op. 124 for which I can find no YouTube link. Then there is Vincent d'Indy's Chanson et Dances, Op. 50. (On a side note I keep hearing the Star Wars theme in the d'Indy piece which is kind of off-putting.)

I'm sure there are others I appreciate too.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Weston, try this one. It was written for the coronation of King George VI. Turn the volume up. Way up. Imagine yourself walking slowly through the throngs of adoring people, approaching the archbishop...


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## Toddlertoddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Weston said:


> I am not familiar with the works previously listed.


They're staples of the concert band repertoire.

There seems to be a large disconnect between traditional classical music (Bach, Beethoven, Mahler, Stravinsky, Cage) and concert band music...


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Richard Strauss ~ Symphony for winds





Alan Hovhaness ~ Symphony No. 4





Igor Stravinsky ~ Symphonies of Wind Instruments




Concerto for piano and winds





Joseph Schwantner ~ ...And The Mountains Rising Nowhere





Kevin Volans ~ Concerto for piano and wind ensemble

The 'high school / college' / Guardsmen symphonic winds repertoire often has very well-crafted music within the literature. Much of it is 'middle of the road,' no matter how good it is, so that in itself does not make much 'noise' as gaining attention in the classical realms.

Too, it is often written, more than deftly, for players with a more limited range and technique than the professional level symphonic player. Within that realm are many very nice pieces, few, it seems, gain much attention outside of that arena for the reasons stated above.

The best of wind music by classical composers for those Pomp and Ceremonious public occasions is a specialty genre, again made deliberately 'middle of the road' because the audience is the most general of the public, and they are meant to 'hit' an area of wide recognition as "archetypical" -- already set and readily recognizable in the widest spread of the public's imagination. "Sophisticated" though that may be within that set of limits, it is still not what is thought of as 'sophisticated' classical music, at least by many 

The winds -- and a lot of the ensemble tradition, is more in that direction of 'populist' and 'occasional.' It is also most traditionally a music well-suited for out-of-doors.

The smaller scale ensembles, trio, quartet, quintet, sestet, etc. -- often within classical literature up to about ten wind instruments, has a strong line of 'earnest' and 'sophisticated' concert music in the chamber music genre. Ditto for the same instruments in combination with a piano.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Concert Band Thread*

You should check out: http://www.talkclassical.com/22354-concert-band-thread.html


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Crown Imperial*



KenOC said:


> Would you consider Crown Imperial (Walton) or Hammersmith (Holst) "sophisticated"?


_Crown Imperial_ is a transcription of an orchestral work. The band version was prepared by W.J. Duthoit.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> _Crown Imperial_ is a transcription of an orchestral work. The band version was prepared by W.J. Duthoit.


Yes, but it's much better. My local CM station insists on playing the orchestral version, which is (by comparison) tedious. No darn fiddles at MY coronoficiation!


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Crown Imperial*

Wow. It appears that you think Duthoit is a superior orchestrator to Walton.

I have performed both versions of the work. It is frequently employed at graduations along with the Elgar. Even the though it is a good transcription, from my experience the original orchestral version is superior. The band version is more fun to listen too than to play. The bassoon part is really boring in the band version. Most of the time the bassoon is playing the cello part and it is doubled with the euphonium. And if you have a bad euphonium section that is blowing its head off, there is no point for the bassoons to show up.


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

I don't understand the inclusion of "sophisticated". Is there music for wind ensemble that you or others don't consider "sophisticated"?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> Wow. It appears that you think Duthoit is a superior orchestrator to Walton.
> 
> I have performed both versions of the work. It is frequently employed at graduations along with the Elgar. Even the though it is a good transcription, from my experience the original orchestral version is superior. The band version is more fun to listen too than to play. The bassoon part is really boring in the band version. Most of the time the bassoon is playing the cello part and it is doubled with the euphonium. And if you have a bad euphonium section that is blowing its head off, there is no point for the bassoons to show up.


The sentiment about the larger public ceremonies, and 'ceremony' in general as attached to this sort of music is often very much a factor with those it deeply impresses... a non-musical factor, strong, and attached to the music due to the music being 'occasional.'


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

I like Mozart's three serenades for winds esp. the Gran Partita K361. (this one has a part for double bass which can be replaced by a contrabassoon). As with all of Mozart's serenades these were specifically composed for public events/ceremonies where most people probably wouldn't have paid them much attention but all three are substantial enough to stand on their own merits.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> Wow. It appears that you think Duthoit is a superior orchestrator to Walton... The band version is more fun to listen too than to play.


Well, there you are then.


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## Elizabeth de Brito (Feb 10, 2016)

Weston said:


> I am not familiar with the works previously listed.
> 
> Woodwind instruments, particularly clarinet, are not my favorite timbre when played together. There is something harsh or shrill about them that seems to escalate when in ensemble. However I do enjoy a couple of windy works. One is by Joseph Jongen, the Concerto for Wind Quintet, Op. 124 for which I can find no YouTube link. Then there is Vincent d'Indy's Chanson et Dances, Op. 50. (On a side note I keep hearing the Star Wars theme in the d'Indy piece which is kind of off-putting.)
> 
> I'm sure there are others I appreciate too.


You have clearly not heard October by Eric Whitacre - or London Eye - 2nd movement of Nigel Hess's suite New London Pictures. There is nothing harsh or shrill about anything, I am on my ipad so I can't include the links but I started another thread and posted the two pieces.

Wind instruments do not always sound harsh or shrill, there is a wealth of lush music written for wind ensemble, I encourage you to check it ouT. Just because we're sidelined in orchestras and never get the chance to showcase the extraordinary spectrum of sounds we are capable of producing. All the way from sweet to shrill, winds have it all.


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## dsphipps100 (Jan 10, 2016)

Weston said:


> Woodwind instruments, particularly clarinet, are not my favorite timbre when played together.


One of the unfortunate things about clarinet (my instrument which I play professionally, just so you know) is that it is very easy for it to sound like a barnyard full of scared chickens. This is especially the case with less skilled players, such as in a younger school band if the director is not careful about what music he/she selects.

In order for the clarinet to have a truly pleasing and homogeneous sound that blends well with other instruments, be they other winds or strings, it is important for the player to form their embouchure correctly, which is tragically a rare case here in the USA. (With all due respect, it's also a rare case in most other countries of the world as well, the only exceptions being Germany and the Netherlands. France and the UK are particularly lacking in this regard, and I'm not going to even _begin_ talking about Russian clarinetists.)

The tongue must be constantly elevated in the mouth, as if one is saying the vowel sound, "EE" (like in the word "feel"). (Try that and notice how your tongue goes to the top of your mouth.) Far too many clarinetists only elevate the tip of their tongue, which is precisely where the barnyard-of-chickens effect comes from when they all start touching the reed with the tip of their tongue to articulate the music.

Then, in addition to the tongue-position consideration, most clarinetists also use reeds that are paper-thin because they don't like the tremendous air pressure exerted on their lips and facial muscles if they use a reed with higher resistance. This is something that you simply have to get over and condition your lips and facial muscles to handle, just like exercise. A heavier reed will give your sound a much "darker" quality, with a lot less buzziness and considerably more carrying power, plus it will also take away that obnoxious edge that is constantly hanging over the top of most school bands' overall sound because a darker sound is much better at blending.

I personally consider the Berliner Philharmoniker's clarinets to have the ideal sound. They are my favorite clarinet sound in the whole world. Here is Karajan-Berlin playing the "Pastorale" from Sibelius' Pelleas & Melisande to illustrate my point...

View attachment 81498


And Michele Zukovsky in the Los Angeles Philharmonic also came really close. I was very sad to see her very prestigious career come to a close with her retirement two months ago (December 20, 2015). Here she is playing part of Ravel's Laideronnette, Empress of the Pagodas from his Ma mère l'oye with Carlo Maria Giulini conducting the LA Phil:

View attachment 81499


Notice how, in both samples, the clarinet sound is well-rounded, there's no obnoxious buzziness, and there's a really nice blend between the clarinet(s) and the other instruments (probably more easily observed in the Berlin sample, since the clarinet is pretty much alone in the Ravel sample).

That's the standard that I wish every clarinet player would aspire to.

Now, if only we could do something about the saxophones.........

(What do you call 100 saxophones at the bottom of the ocean???







)


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## Elizabeth de Brito (Feb 10, 2016)

PetrB said:


> Richard Strauss ~ Symphony for winds
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How much wind band music post 1950 have you heard? It sounds like you haven't heard very much.

Firstly there is wind band music for all levels. Most really good wind band music requires at least Grade 8 level playing for a start and usually much higher. i've played in the National Youth Wind Ensemble of Great Britain and there is nothing limited range and technique about the music we were playing! We were all the best in the country( not a boast, just a fact) and it was still difficult music we were learning - Diaghilev Dances by Kenneth Hesketh, Sheng Sheng Bu Shi by Philip Grange to name two. The latter was highly avant garde. i didn't like it but it was challenging and a great accomplishment to learn.

Sendonly what the hell do you mean by earnest and sophisticated? Do you mean cos its not Mozart symphony number f*** me and Betthoven bagatelle up my *** its not a valuable piece of art. Listen to Jacob de Haan - he blends classical, rock and jazz together in an intoxicating fashion, definitely sophisticated. Or is it the melodious nature?

This is beautiful music, brilliantly melodic and opposed to most of the traditionalist classical purist c*** that people worship, wind ensemble music makes full use of wind instrument capabilities, not just filling them in as an afterthought and leaving everything to the strings, who incidentally saturate the entire soundscape of classical music so it loses half the value.

There is not much that is populist and occasional about wind band music. Are you referring to old fashioned Marches and stuff by Holst and rvw? If so, there's been half a century of wind ensemble music created since then, listen to Philip Sparke or Nigel Hess. His New London Pictures is an immensely accurate and thoughtful portrayal of the modern and dynamic capital of England with both the best and worst aspects of city living captured in 3 movements.

Unlike traditional classical music which too often restricts itself to dusty old concert halls, wind ensemble music is much more full of life and is suitable for playing inside and out. I've played both the Queen Elizabeth Hall and Windsor Castle grounds.

Anything else to add, most people have never heard wind ensemble music yet most people have heard of Mozart, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky. i think that is everything for now, apologies for any typos or the clarity of expression, I am on an ipad and its difficult to see your entire post.

Oh yeah and you say speciality genre, it's for the most general of the public? Whats wrong with middle of the road, as I have already said I do not think wind band music is in general, but if it was, why is that bad? Too many people are turning off to classical music because it is old, traditional and the realm of 'old, middle aged, posh white men', some might say. We need the general public, to have any hope of continuing playing,composing and listening to music. Not just appeasing the old guard by playing the same old s*** again and again. I wouldn't say wind band music is instantly recognisable, apart from the old marches and pomp military band type stuff of the 40s and I would really like it to become so.


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