# Does the language condition your musical preferences?



## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

I tend to prefer Latin and German over Italian, French and, especially, English when it comes to vocal music. Now, before you jump on me, let me tell you that I majored in English Literature at the University, so the prejudice card or the lack of factual knowledge are off the table. I don't think that the problem is that those countries don't have a quality production either (Berlioz and Handel are among my very favorite composers of all time, and I enjoy quite a few Italian operas), so I really wonder what is it that, for a newbie like me, makes Latin and German more attractive than any other languages even when there are lots of great stuff in other languages. Is it the lexicon? Phonology? Grammar? Or is it a mere cultural thing?


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

SweetJesus said:


> I tend to prefer Latin and German over Italian, French and, especially, English when it comes to vocal music. Now, before you jump on me, let me tell you that I majored in English Literature at the University, so the prejudice card or the lack of factual knowledge are off the table.


No, they're still on it.



SweetJesus said:


> I really wonder what is it that, for a newbie like me, makes Latin and German more attractive than any other languages even when there are lots of great stuff in other languages. Is it the lexicon? Phonology? Grammar? Or is it a mere cultural thing?


You're asking _us_ to speculate about the sources of _your_ preferences?


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

some guy said:


> No, they're still on it.
> 
> You're asking _us_ to speculate about the sources of _your_ preferences?


You might want to read the post title and try to relate it to its content. Then you can answer or give your opinion on the matter, whether you think is just something that happens to me or something that can happen frequently


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I have no language preference that I'm aware of.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

Ah. I read the post itself. And let it determine how I interpreted the title. Re-interpreted.

You want me to ignore your post, instead?

OK. Language conditions practically everything that humans do. For humans, language is what used to be referred to as the "species specific."

As far as my experience of music, goes, I do not have any preferences for which language a vocal piece is in. I did buy a copy of Smetana's _Bartered Bride_ that I had to get rid of because it was sung in German. It sounded peculiar to hear Czech music with German words. But even more, the rhythms of German don't match the rhythms of Czech music very well, and so even the German sounded unGermanic, as it were.


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

> Is it the lexicon? Phonology? Grammar? Or is it a mere cultural thing?


I'd assume it's a combination of them all, in many cases.

This is a large topic that has been interestingly discussed by many performers and composers. Stravinsky, for example, has written interestingly about why he composed various works in Latin--such as Oedipus Rex even though he had a French libretto, or Symphony of Psalms when he had considered using Russian texts.

As an aside, while looking for quotes I found this fun essay about Stravinsky's Latin word painting that some may enjoy:

http://symposium.music.org/index.ph...804:stravinsky-and-his-latin-texts&Itemid=124


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

Don't know...why do _you _think 'especially' English?

I'd say that I don't mind the language, as long as it's 'foreign' (prejudice clearly on the table) because the words in your own language have a habit of sounding less poetic, more mundane than the foreign original.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

Not for a lit. major they shouldn't!


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

MacLeod said:


> Don't know...why do _you _think 'especially' English?
> 
> I'd say that I don't mind the language, as long as it's 'foreign' (prejudice clearly on the table) because the words in your own language have a habit of sounding less poetic, more mundane than the foreign original.


Yes, I totally agree. In Spain we have the "zarzuelas", among which I assume there might be some excellent pieces, but I just don't enjoy them (or even ignore them) because of the Spanish


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## Rhombic (Oct 28, 2013)

I assume that vocal music in Georgian may be conditioned by its astonishing number of consonants. A similar case for Estonian, with clear distinctions in vowel lengths (bear in mind that, while singing, accurately noting these differences might be complicated).


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

SweetJesus said:


> Yes, I totally agree. In Spain we have the "zarzuelas", among which I assume there might be some excellent pieces, but I just don't enjoy them (or even ignore them) because of the Spanish


Oh, that's too bad. I love the little zarzuela music I've heard, and I really want to hear a lot more.

For me, good poetry (I can only evaluate in English) is harder to find than good music. I'm hard on poetry. Very ideological! There's a good reason I hang out on classical music boards rather than poetry boards!


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Rhombic said:


> A similar case for Estonian, with clear distinctions in vowel lengths (bear in mind that, while singing, accurately noting these differences might be complicated).


Here's a collection of some Esto vowels: Õueaiaäär


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

No not really, never because of the language, but I have been known to "boycott" a few recordings because one or other (world famous) singer has a very poor handling of a foreign language and / or musical style!

/ptr


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I will always prefer Italian for vocal music. A perfect fit, IMO.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Languages you have never studied / do not know can:

1) have you more directly hearing 'just the music' of a vocal work.
___The pro -- have you hearing more of the music of the language itself vs. that of a native speaker or one who has learned the language.
___The con -- leave you without the meaning of the sung text(s) which, since the text was chosen to set, are an integral part of the piece.
[My habit is to listen to 'only the music' first, even when the work is in English -- it seems the music has my attention so much I still have to focus upon text even when in my native language or another language I do understand. After several listens, if 'the music on its own' has 'told me something' I then look into the text as well, and add that detail to the whole. ]

2.) have you hearing those works as being more 'exotic' (i.e. romanticizing the piece on some level -- I can't find any real plus about this aspect.)

I have no marked preferences, other than I like them all, but only when the work is sung in the language in which it was originally set, _no substitutes_. There are two very strong arguments for this:

It is the language _and the sound of that language_ the composer was thinking about when they set the piece.

Regardless of how great the translation, that original sound, meant to be married to the musical sound, and the prosody -- _which so affects a composer's choices as to the very melodic contour, the lengths, stressed syllables and rhythmic cadences in the phrasing_ -- are both inevitably, to some degree, corrupted when translated.

Your OP is stuffed with generalities which name no specific works, i.e. vocal _music_. How anyone could by other than blind guessing tell you 'why you tend to prefer this music sung in these languages' is a good one. I mean, would this include a preference for hearing Bizet's _Carmen_ sung auf Deutsch, or Berg's _Lulu_ sung in Latin?


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I will always prefer Italian for vocal music. A perfect fit, IMO.


It works well for food too.


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## Bayreuth (Jan 20, 2015)

PetrB said:


> Your OP is stuffed with generalities which name no specific works, i.e. vocal _music_. How anyone could by other than blind guessing tell you 'why you tend to prefer this music sung in these languages' is a good one. I mean, would this include a preference for hearing Bizet's _Carmen_ sung auf Deutsch, or Berg's _Lulu_ sung in Latin?


Nothing of the sort. You see, English is not my mother tongue so I can't always explain myself as I like. I apologize in advance for any other times that this might (and will) happen. What I meant (rather approximately) is that, for every piece of music sung in English, Italian or French that I like (by this I mean opera, sacred music, symphonies, orchestral works, etc. where there is a text meant to be sung by a choir or soprano or tenor,etc.) there are like five or six in German or Latin that I like JUST THE SAME. So it is not a matter of quality but of quantity.
In short: what I'm saying is not that I dislike music in French or that I'd like to hear 'Romeo and Juliette' in Latin; all I'm saying is that, among the sung pieces that I like, there is a clear predominance of Latin and German. 
I hope I made myself a little clearer this time.

PS: you should try and be a little more forgiving, since I'm sensing that you really got the message but wanted to get a word anyway. It looks condescending to me.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Language is irrelevant to me. I can't understand the words anyway, even if it's a pop song in English.

What matters is that the consonants and syllables fit the phrase nicely and that the singer doesn't warble like an underwater theremin with a bellyache or trill the "rrrr's" in an exaggerated way or get too recitative / spoken word on me (as in Schoenberg's _Pierrot Lunaire_, sadly).


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

SweetJesus said:


> In short: what I'm saying is that, among the sung pieces that I like, there is a clear predominance of Latin and German.


You must communicate more information for anyone to still be able to hazard a guess to your question.
Repertoire, and nationality of composers would go quite a way toward being telling. If you have even a moderate listening experience of a moderate range of music and no other musical learning, I think you'd be able to hear there are differences due to the prevailing styles in any era from one nationality to another. Sure, classical music has been for many centuries more than a little 'international' in its styles, but nonetheless there is often enough a particular bent for one type of approach to composing over another from place to place.

Sure, about every composer prior the reformation set any religious texts in Latin, a choice which post-reformation many a composer has opted for as well, Benjamin Britten (Athiest) and Stravinsky (Russian Orthodox), for example. In the baroque, any respectable composer could write, like Bach, a French Overture, an Italian suite, and English suite, etc. In the romantic era, a major trend was 'nationalist' music, often enough folk-influenced.

Even more fundamentally, there are also somewhat 'fingerprint' rhythms which show up as per locale, perhaps those having something to do with the innate rhythm and cadence of the local language: German music is often earmarked by a favoring of the dotted eighth - sixteenth; French music is often found to have triplets not in the basic meter, and like the spoken language, those triplets are sometimes tied into the next group of notes, which is quite a parallel to the elisions in that language as spoken.

Some specific repertoire, then, and the composers. You may be able to answer your own question from that, and / or find it is more specifically the language vs the musical style. Again, I would not expect anyone to hazard an educated guess unless addressing your question until you've given more specific info.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2015)

I have no problem with any language. There are works that I love in most of the major languages represented in classical music. For German, there is Brahms' German Requiem, Mozart's Magic Flute, and Bach's Cantatas. For Latin, there is the unlimited wealth of religious choral music, including the wonderful masses and requiems. For Italian, some wonderful operas, including Mozart's Italian operas. For French, there are some wonderful operas. For English, there stands, for me supreme at the top, Handel's Messiah. For Russian, there are Tchaikovsky's Eugen Onegin, and Rachmaninoff's liturgical works. For Czech, I have enjoyed the operas of Dvorak and Smetana.

I have to admit that I am not as familiar with Spanish choral works, but not out of some bias against Spanish - there just are not that many Spanish composers in my collection.

Language is irrelevant to me. I can understand German and English, so it is nice listening to those because I am not as dependent on a libretto, but that is it.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I feel very at home with German opera, much of which I understand without the libretto, and I enjoy the sound of it. Sometimes, I get a little frustrated with French opera (recently listened to some of Berlioz'), because I don't understand enough of it, when sung, to make much sense of what is going on. When I don't understand the language at all, I hear the voice more as a part of the music; this is acceptable to me, as I have greatly enjoyed a lot of works, but the loss of meaning is lamentable.

Language does not "condition [my] musical preferences." The composers I am into write/wrote what they did and I cannot change that.


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