# Joanna Newsom...



## 151 (Jun 14, 2010)

Hello All, I'd like to get some help with identifying the style of classical music I love.

To your tastes, I might not be easy to please, but please bear with me.

*Van **** Parks* arrangements on *Joanna Newsom's Ys* album is typically what I'm looking for,the music is *buoyant, thetrical and pretty* in style, but I've also learned a few associative terms and I have some favourite instruments;

I'd like to know if there are some words for what I'm looking for.

I am, to say the least, psychotic about details so I have very specific desires.

First of all, I like *pizzicato* and *staccato *strings, *concert harps* at the front of the mix, a lot of *dynamics*, *tremelo* and *vibrato.*

I love* very fast,** intricate glockenspiels, xylophones, horn stabs and swells.*

I like to hear a lot of instruments in seperation such as the *bassooon, oboe*, as opposed to a wall of sound, I don't want anything with huge hall reverberations.

Other examples I like are *Andrew Poppy, Alarms Will Sound, Aluminium.* Not only do these examples begin with the letter A and two of which are orchestral interpretations of modern music, they have something in common - they feel sort of like *really over-produced show tunes, with elements of eastern gamelan orchestras, which have a lot of timpani and percussion, very heavily syncopated, stop and go, possibly with drums, polyrhythms, fast fills which seem to add up as more form of illusive and entropic maths, sort of like Keith Jarret's most complex moments where a crazy amount of things are going on at once.*

Also worth mentioning Gentle Giant, Gong, Dun, Egg, Joni Mitchell even. I tend to go for *super complex* progressive rock records with *a lot* of instruments on them.

Is there a name for this school of thought? (be kind, first post)

I don't like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, to my experience, so far.

Nothing _*too*_ free-jazz, horror-movie or avant garde, I get quite easily scared. But I am all for something strange, h*uge bells, a synthesiser, taikos, poety...*

Sorry this is long-winded, I'm very passionate about this. 

Is there a name for this style of music I'm trying to describe?

Thank you.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Welcome.

I read your entire first post twice. I'm afraid I found it difficult to follow; disjointed and unflowing. For example, I have not heard of Joanna Newsom, van **** Park, Alarms Will Sound, Dun, Egg, etc. and so it's difficult to see how these musicians/composers might be associated with pizzicato, intricate glockenspiels, xylophones, horn stabs and swells; and how all these are related to the topic of your thread - Joanna Newsom.

Nonetheless, I did my little homework. I looked up Joanne Newsom on youtube. I found this clip, which I don't really think it would normally be described as classical music, in the sense that most members here would understand that term.

Listening to this clip, I would describe it as country music, despite being played on a harp. The lyrics has a story, and the story appears to be country music style.


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## 151 (Jun 14, 2010)

Thank you for the reply. Should have posted this...

http://www.last.fm/search?q=joanna+newsom+only+skin&from=ac

Sorry, I'm not the best cognitive thinker, that's the best I could do.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

> I'd like to get some help with identifying the style of classical music I love.


The style of classical music you love is: non-classical.


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## 151 (Jun 14, 2010)

Aramis said:


> The style of classical music you love is: non-classical.


You might say so.

The thing is, I have listened extensively to a lot of the more obvious classical music and I find it boring and unchallenging.

The most renown example of what I consider to be this style is probably Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, some of the more exuberant Tzadik composers. Like I said, I could play you loads of example of more accepted classical music like this.

The important things are the elements I described.

Joanna Newsom just happens to make more rewarding and meaningful music than most 'classical' composers.


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

151 said:


> Hello All, I'd like to get some help with identifying the style of classical music I love.
> 
> To your tastes, I might not be easy to please, but please bear with me.
> 
> *Van **** Parks* arrangements on *Joanna Newsom's Ys* album is typically what I'm looking for,the music is *buoyant, thetrical and pretty* in style, but I've also learned a few associative terms and I have some favourite instruments;


Errr....perhaps you should really listen to Aramis. Joanna Newsom is not classical, no matter what you might think 

Whereas I don't have her 'Have one on me' album - in fact - I stopped listening to her after 'Y's'. A fine album, although her vocals are somewhat quirky and rather bizarre, in the same way that Rufus Wainwright comes across as camp peculiar, Joanna's inflections and voice is rather eery yet strangely pleasing to those who can acquire her taste.

You should know that Drag City Label has brought many a fine artist to the alt.folk.rock scene - Joanna Newsom is similar to Marissa Nadler in being lumped with the 'psycho folk' or 'queer folk' crowd. There is nothing 'queer' about their music at all, but their genre is best described as 'freak folk' rather than 'classical'. Edith Frost's albums preceded Newsom's post-modern works, although you really should consider Marissa Nadler; Lisa O'Piu; early Over The Rhine "Good Dog Bad Dog era"; Sam Phillips (Nonesuch era as well as early album works like 'The Indescribable Wow'; 'Cruel Inventions' (funkier, but still very classical in some areas where Van **** Parks collaborated on); and 'Martinis & Bikinis' (60's harpsichord/Beatleseque influences); Elvis Costello and the Brodsky Quartet on 'The Juliet Letters"; Heather Nova's "Jasmine Flower" which draws on chamber instruments like a string quartet and solo cello for backing. Van **** Parks himself released 'Tokyo Rose' which is worth listening if you have never heard his solo works. Similarly, if you're looking for pure post-modern chamber music like Newsom's, then Rachels' works, like Selenography; Music for Egon Schiele and 'The Sea and the Bells' brings the chamber side to the fore.

Even banal commercial artists like Sarah McLachlan, in her early days from 'The Terms of Endearment' and 'Black' from her 'Solace' album, possess similar moments like Newsom, albeit with a less distraught vocal. Lucia Micarelli's solo violin collaboration album is also worthwhile looking out for. If you're pushing harder for more obscure and refined stuff, then Heidi Berry; Lisa Germano and the acoustic side of Kristin Hersh (like 'Your Ghost' and 'The Holy EP' are worth looking out for. Other eccentric classically trained artists - include Veda Hille, who is as weird as Newsom, but weirder still like only Canada can do. If you're into the pure harp work, then the quirky Mary Margaret O'Hara's work is far more proficient than Newsom, however let's not pretend that either are 'classical': all these artists have a training in classical music, however they are all distinctly 'left of the centre'.



> I'd like to know if there are some words for what I'm looking for.


Post-modern, post-nuclear, pseudo-alternative folk covers most bases. It is not 'pop' as such; the 'pop' crowd are not interested in the kind of profundity which Newsom and similar artists pursue: the kind of existential depth attained in 3 1/2 minutes of pure post-modern post-nuclear pseudo alternative folk music is too profound for the average ADHD attention span listener sadly.



> I am, to say the least, psychotic about details so I have very specific desires.


Nothing psychotic there. We have a chaise longue if you'd like to recline to tell the forum your subconscious desires 



> First of all, I like *pizzicato* and *staccato *strings, *concert harps* at the front of the mix, a lot of *dynamics*, *tremelo* and *vibrato.*
> 
> I love* very fast,** intricate glockenspiels, xylophones, horn stabs and swells.*


Well I like aubergines; courgettes, okri, port salut and Normandy brie with grapes, but that ain't going to make me go off on a tangent! 

Oops. Too late.

Well, if you like fast and intricate - are you familiar with Gorecki's Harpsichord Concerto? Or Szymanski's Partita III? Gorecki's furious pounding gothic harpsichord concerto is out of this world whereas Szymanski's pounding harpsichord and glockenspiel fury is tempestuously post-modern and baroque at the same time. Music like this makes me really hungry 



> I like to hear a lot of instruments in seperation such as the *bassooon, oboe*, as opposed to a wall of sound, I don't want anything with huge hall reverberations.


I guess you like chamber music, rather than the impersonal large venue orchestrated stuff then? I'm pretty much that way inclined. I like chamber music; music in a room at best; turned on with a warm glowing resonant tube amp at nights or a large room for a concert - rather than a huge symphony hall.

Dunno if that helps? Well Gentle Giant and Joni Mitchell are more of the institutional folk or folk rock stuff. There isn't anything particularly progressive about them. You will find that categorisation is inaccurate at best - and like most folk or pop music, there is no school of thought: there just has not been that kind of philosophical systematisation or intensive 'study' into the kind of 'folk' music which they popularise. 'Americana' describes a kind of movement which has sprung from such folk roots, although this can cross over into the 'Appalachian folk music' (Gillian Welch 'Yearlings' era; or the Georgia style (Indigo Girls; Michelle Malone; Gerard McHugh; Guadalcanal Diary, REM', or the Texas movement led by T-Bone Burnett who has produced many albums with his own influences derived from the 1930's folk movement) right through to Wilco; Pinetop Seven and The Handsome Family. In any case, Joni Mitchell has always been lumped as a 'singer-songwriter'; Gentle Giant are more of the alt. folk rock scene, typified by Gary Olson; Giant Sand, Jay Louris, Victoria Williams etc.

In essence, music like these artists, straddle several categories due to the limitations of trying to pigeon hole any artist. It's good that they do: that way, they pull a fan base from different directions and have a broader appeal to specialist music fans, rather than the generic middle-of-the road type.



> I don't like Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, to my experience, so far.


I'm not a huge fan of either 3, although I do have Bach's Harpsichord works (and only his Harpsichord solo work); Mozart's Masses (and only his Masses); and Beethoven's string quartets (as well as a violin concerto). Bach; Mozart and Beethoven are acquired tastes, if you're coming from an alt.folk rock background. You might have to research your classical music taste outside of the box; target folk influenced classical music: Bartok; Szymanowski; Myaskovsky; Kodaly; Martinu; Dvorak; Smetana in the chamber music forms, rather than the large hall stuff.



> Nothing _*too*_ free-jazz, horror-movie or avant garde, I get quite easily scared. But I am all for something strange, h*uge bells, a synthesiser, taikos, poety...*


Oops. Well actually, the above recommendations aren't scary 

Maybe it's hard for you not to post all over the place, however I guess that is a function of your music taste, not being 'categorisable' easily. Please don't take it as an insult to be told that your music taste isn't strictly classical; it is more 'classically informed', although it is 'strange' because it relies on classical forms of music, thought of outside of the box. 'The Sea & the Bells' by Rachel's should be compulsory listening for you if you like bells. I personally can't stand the synthesiser sound, unless it is a vintage synthesiser like a chamberlain or a wurlitzer. As for poetry - rather than 'the poetic form' - I guess that needs some clarification. If you're interested in 'tone-poems', this is a huge genre in the symphonic tradition which is worthwhile tapping into.

Food for thought ehhh? Back to supper then


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

151 said:


> First of all, I like *pizzicato* and *staccato *strings, *concert harps* at the front of the mix, a lot of *dynamics*, *tremelo* and *vibrato.*


Ummm.... Enya?


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## 151 (Jun 14, 2010)

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mr. Head_Case. Enjoyable post.



Head_case said:


> Gentle Giant are more of the alt. folk rock scene


I have to say, in regards to this, you should familiarise yourself with the Canterbury scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canterbury_scene

Otherwise, pretty helpful post, I have heard a lot of these artists. 'Chamber music' seems to lend itself well here but I don't agree with the Folk categorisation, Ys sounds nothing like normal folk music (as this is 'my scene' I think I have the last say on that.)

Seems like every one is being quick to disown something as being related to the 'classical' genre but slow to identify the elements of 'classically trained' music and 'classical' instruments...



Earthling said:


> Ummm.... Enya?


 Thanks, Earthling, you did well.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Gentle Giant is most definitely progressive - among the most progressive there ever was I'd say, but I'm having a hard time compiling them in the same breath as this Joanna Newsom. It's apples and orangutans to me.

Anyway -- I think the music of John Dowland is as comlplex as Gentle Giant or nearly so. You've probably already seen this clip:




Many purists hated this version, but I found it great fun if more than a little too fast.

Also, I think you may be missing the point of much classical. Its complexity can be subtle. One almost needs annotations at hand to really get a lot of what is going on. It ain't relaxing background music, but very intricate manipulation of motives and keys and time signatures, repeated themes, themes turned upside down, and backwards - just as Gentle Giant was. This may not be obvious on a few listens.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Im a bit of a Joanna Newsom fan having seen her play live and owning her first album - I have her classified as Folk music in my iTunes!.

As concerns compositions in this sort of style I can only recommend a few discs from my own collection, not having a specific interest in compositions centered around Harp and/or voice - I realise you mentioned an aversion to Mozart, Bach etc, but I dont see any reason why you wouldnt enjoy the compositions I have listed as they tick most of the boxes described in your original post .
Anyways check out these recordings if you are able:


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## Earthling (May 21, 2010)

Conor71 said:


>


Oooooh... that's on my wish list... I've heard bits of it before and it sounds good (I already have three transcriptions of this).


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## 151 (Jun 14, 2010)

Thanks, that video was impressive! Very GG-esque



Weston said:


> Also, I think you may be missing the point of much classical. Its complexity can be subtle. One almost needs annotations at hand to really get a lot of what is going on. It ain't relaxing background music, but very intricate manipulation of motives and keys and time signatures, repeated themes, themes turned upside down, and backwards - just as Gentle Giant was. This may not be obvious on a few listens.


I know this. And I realise it is quite an algebraic request, but if I wanted the 'Last.fm' recommendations, I would have tried there.

All the examples are long *suites*, sometimes 30 minute sides.

anyway, I'm very happy with what I've found, just wondered if I'd find a kindred spirit and it was a way to make a first post.

For those with an interest in this style of music feel free to message me or add some input

* * * * *


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Earthling said:


> Oooooh... that's on my wish list... I've heard bits of it before and it sounds good (I already have three transcriptions of this).


Nice one Earthling! - I would definetely recommend the Goldbergs played on Harp, its great


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## 151 (Jun 14, 2010)

Can't believe nobody recommended Olivier Messiaen, he seems to pull all the stops!


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## Head_case (Feb 5, 2010)

That's because you never asked for 'spiritual' and 'intense' lol.

Messiaen's 'Quatuor pour le fin du temps'; "Vingt Regards" and his organ music are my favs from him. To me he carves a unique sonic landscape along the individual lines of Sofia Gubaidulina. 

He didn't write much string quartet work otherwise I'd like him more. 


Yeah - I'm not a English alt.rock lover at all. Apart from The Railway Children's epic Factory Records releases and their incredible Smiths'esque acoustic CD release, one of the quietest masterpieces ever to have come out of the UK, I'm not a huge contemporary UK listener. 

Don't get me started about British string quartets either lol.


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