# What is it about vocal music



## violadude (May 2, 2011)

I've noticed that there is this trend for many people who get into classical music to steer clear of vocal music for quite some time. This was true of me too. For a while, I only wanted to listen to instrumental music and I didn't care for vocal music at all, especially Medieval/Renaissance choral music and opera. Fortunately, that has changed for me now and I can finally enjoy the entire spectrum of classical music genres, but it took quite a while. And notice that this is a similar pattern for many people that get into classical music, with the exception of people that get into it through Opera. 

So what is it about vocal music that makes it seemingly so much more unappealing to people relatively newer to classical music?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

violadude said:


> [...]
> So what is it about vocal music that makes it seemingly so much more unappealing to people relatively newer to classical music?


I don't really remember much of anything about my reaction to vocal classical music when I was 'relatively new' to classical music - except that I didn't seek it out. I am willing to guess that I was annoyed because most of it is not sung in English, and even when it is, the choruses are indecipherable. In the fullness of time I have learned that even when I do understand the words I don't like 'em. My 'secret' for enjoying vocal music nowadays is that I treat it as 'pure' music; no data transfer need intrude.


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

A. Most people get into it via orchestral music, and an orchestra is a comparatively really cool thing.
B. Vocal music is too often associated with opera, which is an acquired taste and is generally associated in people's minds with screechy sopranos (the fake aria in "Citizen Kane") or Wagnerian Brunnhildes, or with lieder, which are again associated with sopranos (rightly or wrongly).
C. Reminds too many people of church choirs.
D. Also the words are primarily all foreign, which makes people think they have no idea what's going on, whereas purely instrumental music has little or no subtext that people think they have to understand.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

The vocal technique in Classical is much diferent. Strong vibrato and overbearing sound. Just so much easier listening to music without that. There wouldn't have been so much instrumental music if people were happy with vocal Classical music. But I think some felt this way back then as well.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I've been a fan of vocal music for a long time, choral music in particular, with soloists. I think I just like the blend of many voices instead of one voice. The fact that I couldn't understand what they were saying also use to bother me, now it doesn't. The vocal quality is a tough thing to get into, I will concede. I still can't get into lieder (voice and piano) that well, just a few exceptions. Opera is much easier for me than lieder.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> The vocal technique in Classical is much diferent. Strong vibrato and overbearing sound. Just so much easier listening to music without that. There wouldn't have been so much instrumental music if people were happy with vocal Classical music. But I think some felt this way back then as well.


But would you say that is true of choral music too? Early choral music especially has a pretty clean sound to it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I had little problem getting into classical vocal music, because I've been around choral music all my life. To me, the singing technique sounds natural and genuine. The most artificial-sounding singing in the world has always seemed to me that heard in Pop music (the genre, not the general classification), with its blend of candy-coated innocence and "edgy" sex appeal.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

I started to like vocal music when a former piano teacher showed me a cd of Gesualdo's responsories. 
I really like medieval vocal music, particularly ars antiqua. Renaissance. Some baroque music. Gap in classical and romantic. 
Finally, some 20th century operas and pieces.

(lol, wikipedia says: Carlo Gesualdo was an Italian nobleman, lutenist, composer, and _murderer_.; as if murderer were 'another' thing in the same category as composer, lutenist, etc.)


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## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

I haven't acquired a taste for vocal music yet. I actually make it a point to avoid it. I've tried to force myself to enjoy it, but it hasn't gotten a hold on me yet. I feel like I'm missing out, but I can't bring myself to listen to it. I hope that this will change at some point. I really love operatic vocals, and sopranos are some of my favorite voices, but I just don't enjoy classical vocal music at all :/


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

For me, its different..

I am introduced to orchestral music, but gradually over time I have become equally or more enamored with vocal music. Listening to Schubert's Lieder have been a very enlightening experience. In my experience, becoming in love with Lieder is the hardest aspect in the journey of a classical fan.."_too intimate, boring, etc_" ( evidenced with the lack of interest in Lieder in TC). But I love it anyway.. It is different but equally rewarding


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I had little problem getting into classical vocal music, because I've been around choral music all my life. To me, the singing technique sounds natural and genuine. The most artificial-sounding singing in the world has always seemed to me that heard in Pop music (the genre, not the general classification), with its blend of candy-coated innocence and "edgy" sex appeal.


I agree that most pop music is "mannered" sounding; but there is a missing point. Classical vocal technique was developed as it was to "project" loudly; this was before microphones. Popular music uses microphones, so we can hear every nuance of the voice. Sometimes I like to have Madonna "whisper in my ear," or hear Jimi Hendrix mumble something, and in many ways, this is more "natural" and conversational than the projected operatic voices we hear in CM.

I think some great innovations in this regard are evident in the "Les Miserables" musical movie, where concealed wireless mikes are worn by the singers, which integrates dialog with singing.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I had the same response as violadude. I liked a few choral works (Messiah and Mozart's Requiem), but I had no desire to hear opera, pure vocal works, or songs. I listened to very few choral works as well. I think the few individually voiced works (opera and some lieder) sounded distinctly different than the instrumental works I knew and loved. I can't really say why. Maybe I was used to the sound of voice in popular songs, which was essentially all I listened to until I was roughly 30 or so. Popular works have few significant jumps in pitch and also cover a modest range unlike instruments.

I believe the first new vocal work that changed my feeling was Tallis' _Spem in Alium_. Again I can't say exactly what drew me to that music, but I fell in love. There was something powerful and moving - some would say spiritual - in hearing the high soprano above the dense thicket of the other voices. I began listening to other choral works both pre and post Baroque. I heard Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_ and was surprised that a work for single voice could be so beautiful. Finally I began opera and have heard perhaps 25 operas this year.

So as with almost all music, exposure and continued listening can open up vast new vistas of beauty and enjoyment.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> The vocal technique in Classical is much diferent. Strong vibrato and overbearing sound. Just so much easier listening to music without that. There wouldn't have been so much instrumental music if people were happy with vocal Classical music. But I think some felt this way back then as well.


I think its likely because so many have been brought up hearing pop and rock style vocals, that classical vocal technique seems foreign or 'different'. But in reality I have to agree with Mahlerian that if anything the "classical" style of singing is much more natural. It also doesn't tend to damage the throat like pop/rock vocals generally do over time. That is why you see older guys like Pavarotti who sang so well into their old age, where in pop/rock, age and time really starts to take its toll on the vocal cords. Also, I think earlier composers just enjoyed the variety of sounds and techniques a multitude of instruments could give them, as opposed to feeling the vocal technique was too "different" or "over-bearing".

Myself, I love a lot of classical vocal music, and once I opened my mind to it, have not found it very difficult to enjoy. I'm not a huge fan of everything out there, but that is true of all the different varieties of classical music.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Neoshredder's comment, sans the predictable pronounced 'judgement' from a rocker sensibility not terribly aware of the whole of music literature and turned near fanatical on classical, still rightly states the pith of the issue for most listeners, even for those who have been in the classical genre since childhood.

_*There is just hardly any way the voice trained to sing with or over an orchestra in a large hall, and in the modern age, without a microphone, is going to sound 'natural' to anyone.*_

A trained voice is a highly 'cultivated' sound. Generally our exposure to vocal singing is a voice not much ever beyond its most relaxed, singing in its more limited and natural 'untrained' range: this is generally the sound of almost all folk music, much pop music, etc.

Our mothers, grandmothers, nannies or other women around us in our infancy, unless trained classical singers, did not sing us lullabies with more than a one octave range, in a trained manner so as to be able to have even a pianissimo heard laser clear over an orchestra, at the back of a hall holding anywhere from 1000 to nearly 5000 people. Shocking, but a fact This makes just about everyone on the planet preconditioned from infancy on what they expect a singing voice to sound like.

There is a 'half-way' which I would most recommend to those who have shied away, and that is within the Lied / Chanson tradition. There, for music designed to be 'intimate' and not for large venues, a more natural and 'less operatic' manner of production is deployed -- an ideal being that it sounds more like speech with a specific pitch than song / aria as in opera.

Often it is the larger choral works which will pull any of us in, again, even though the ranges may top the staff, or go to either extreme for male and female voice, the tradition there is to write for chorusters who do not have the standard tool-box of a working three octave range required of opera singers. (Most symphony choruses are made up of amateurs, and voice students in training, opera choruses somewhat the same disposition) The tessitura for the chorus in choral works is, then, far more limited for any part, the whole sounding 'less artificial' to initiates than the full operatic voice.

There is too, that incredibly synthetic sounding *vibrato* many a classical opera singer cultivates, to a degree often enough where I would aggressively like to ask them, *"Exactly which part of that oscillation am I to take as the designated pitch the composer wants me to hear?"* While enough is enough, I was lately reminded that voice (and piano) are still two of the most next to impossible things to record well or accurately, and that live, in the opera house, many meters between me and the singer, over the orchestra, that vibrato becomes next to nothing, only allowing the voice to be singled out in the overall sonic bloom. I recommend attending a live performance to anyone who thinks that vibrato will prevent them from ever enjoying classical song or opera.

That said, in both vocal music and orchestral playing, there is now a thought / trend in the classical milieu that vibrato became more and more exaggerated through the late romantic period, and adjustments, both with voice and instruments, have started to be made in performance practice. Hollywood, btw, is perhaps the most reliant upon vibrato - viz. the string playing, and Broadway musicals, heavy on a bright fast amplitude vibrato in the vocals, which in the extreme has become rightly associated with 'schmaltz' or 'corny.'

I just listed a good number of vocal works in another thread here; there were so many I began to wonder if it might be perceived as 'showing off,' or some odd, but there it is, I realized I knew of so many because I have consumed them all with great relish and a lot of love, and repeatedly. (I've also accompanied _a lot_ of singers and chamber choirs.) Ergo: I've "outed" myself as someone long in the game who more than just a little more than just likes the human voice, and voice in combination with instruments.

First have a go with the earlier repertoire, before the development of huge capacity opera houses, bel canto, Wagner, and all the rest. The earlier singing style agrees with / meets the style and the size of those venues, and is not so 'inflated-trained' as later music demands.

Monteverdi ~ Zefiro Torna; Nuria Rial, soprano & Philippe Jaroussky, countertenor... the music more 'popular / secular' than any other sort. lively and ebullient piece, wonderful performance. This too is 'classical singing.'





Try a Bach aria from a cantata, _Weichet nur betrubte schatten_, from the _wedding cantata_, or similar.





Try the lieder route. It was my 'gateway' into beginning to like / love vocal music.

I can not help anyone who needs songs sung in their own language, as I pay no attention (first) to the texts even when they are in my native English (this includes all song texts of any genre, pop, other, etc.) believing that if the music does not convey enough to me in its own manner, that no matter how great the text, I was not interested; if the music takes me in, then I look into the text.

Schubert: 
Winterreise, _Die Krähe_, Hans Hotter sounds like he is just 'talking to you' in the corner of a small room, intimate, confidential, as near sung speech as I've heard, antithetical to opera. One of the 'great' interpreters of Schubert and this song cycle.





Der Jüngling an der Quelle; Fischer-Dieskau





as rough as this following (obviously pirated) recording is, it is from the vantage point of an audience member in a largish hall, not the voice smash up against a microphone in a recording studio - more like what you hear if you hear it live. Jonas Kaufmann





Nacht und Träume ~ Barbara Hendricks





Ravel - Kaddish, from Deux Mélodies Hébraïques ~ Victoria de los Angeles





And some things do not take until 'later' if they take at all. I have more than a deep fondness for a chunk of 20th century neoclassical music. I 'tried' it when in my very earliest teens, and could not make head nor tail of it... it left me either cold, nonplussed, or both! A handful of years later, and more listening and playing experience with more of the classical repertoire, and lo and behold, it all became 'accessible' - seemingly 'overnight.' LOL.

Live performance, Live performance, Live performance is THE way to go at it above all else. Recordings set the mike in front of the singers, who do what they naturally do to fill a hall, almost all vocal recordings put the voice far too 'up front' -- the whole completely out of balance. (ditto for pieces with instrumental solo, but that is another complaint


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

______________________


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

It has always been the unnatural projection and vibrato that used to steer me clear of vocal music in the same way that screechy vibrato gives me pause in solo violin music. 

I am reminded of a silly old Johnny Weissmuller Tarzan movie in which Tarzan visits New York and gets a taste of "civilization." As he is being driven around in a taxicab an operatic aria comes on the radio. He sits bolt upright and searches for a way into the radio. "Woman sick!" he says.

I always found classical vocals more cringe worthy when it is a solo vocal. Start adding more voices and the warbling vibrato begins to smooth out. With an entire choir, the effect is all but gone and there remains only wonderful sonorities, just as when the violins combine in a full orchestra.

The way I partially overcame my aversion was to play a silly mental trick that some of you will abhor. I imagined the solo vocals as some kind of synthesizer or theremin that is merely imitating vocals. Somehow this made the sound more acceptable to me, so I was able to appreciate Beethoven's 9th, Sinfonia Antartica, etc, and most recently the Alfvén Symphony No. 4 with its wonderful vocalise sections. I still have a bit of trouble with lieder and won't go out of my way to hear classical songs, but neither do they make me cringe as they once did.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Dedicated to violadude, lol :


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

PetrB said:


> *Live performance, Live performance, Live performance is THE way to go at it above all else.*


I've always enjoyed "unnatural" vocals (eg, I still am a big fan of _cookie monster_ death/black metal vocals; the voice is an instrument so a singer should try to fully explore it). Eventually classical singing was a natural step  but hearing operatic singing *live* was the single most important reason I started paying diligent attention to it. I was honestly blown away by the technique and vocal possibilities the singers were able to work with right there under my nose. So pick something where you enjoy the orchestration a lot and go see it live. It might make a world of difference.

as to the lyrics, it's a take it or leave it matter. With a good librettist, the lyrics and the music really enhance each other, it's not forced at all.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Interesting post. My husband and I went to our second orchestral concert yesterday afternoon. I "warned him" so to speak that the opener to Rachmaninoff's piano concerto was a choral piece. Silly that I felt the need to have him prepared for that. Of the half dozen pieces that we have seen between the two concerts, the choral work was his favorite, and may have been mine as well!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> I agree that most pop music is "mannered" sounding; but there is a missing point. Classical vocal technique was developed as it was to "project" loudly; this was before microphones. Popular music uses microphones, so we can hear every nuance of the voice. Sometimes I like to have Madonna "whisper in my ear," or hear Jimi Hendrix mumble something, and in many ways, this is more "natural" and conversational than the projected operatic voices we hear in CM.
> 
> I think some great innovations in this regard are evident in the "Les Miserables" musical movie, where concealed wireless mikes are worn by the singers, which integrates dialog with singing.


I was talking specifically about the pop genre, not popular music as a whole, and you're right that there's a certain amount of personality in popular vocal music (Jazz singers spend their whole lives cultivating a unique vocal sound and performance style) that differs significantly from anything in classical.

But even before issues with autotune and whatever else plagues the industry these days, the pop genre has a very odd vocal style associated with it that I just find obnoxious. Rock is different, but that goes in trends anyway.


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

There are many choral works that I love very much. Yet, I find that there's an element of vulgarity in all singing. The immediacy of expression, unfiltered by an instrument's neutral matter, always somehow strikes me as non-musical to a certain degree. Singing is the most natural way of making music, or course, but that kind of seems like a contradiction in itself. I've learned to love choral music, which took some time, and many of my favourite works have elaborate solo vocal parts. Still, the singing and the playing never really merge into one for me, nor do I ever mistake one for the other.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

The bias against vocal music at TC is something a good many of those who love vocal music have long recognized... and looked upon with dismay. For a while we had the member, Almaviva who made a valiant case for opera... before moving on to begin his own site devoted to that musical form. I can't count the number of times that someone has posted comments underestimating... or even disparaging composers like Mozart, Vivaldi, Gluck, Rameau, Wagner, Schubert, Schumann, Faure, etc... while admitting that they have never listened to the same composers' vocal music... or that they simply don't like vocal music.

Personally, I came to admire classical vocal music right off the bat. I came from a background in which I was rarely exposed to classical music... let alone classical vocal music... unless it was opera on Bugs Bunny or sung by Alfalfa on the Little Rascals. My parents were far more into pop, country, and bluegrass and I grew up as a teenager on rock. On the other hand, my mother sang Bach in the Lutheran Church choir... and so Bach clicked with me right away.

When I first started listening to classical music I immediately fell for Bach and Handel's oratorios and cantatas. I was intrigued by lieder... but this was a genre difficult to find at the time. For a long time a cassette recording of Peter Schreier singing Schubert's Winterreise was the only recording of lieder I had. I was immediately enamored of Beethoven's 9th. And opera! My first real experience with this art form was the classic Zeffirelli film of La Traviata with Domingo and Teresa Stratas. The first CD recording I heard of opera in its entirety was that of Karajan's _Parsifal_. My first year in college I was given free tickets to _Aida_. The experience was so overwhelming that I was a sold acolyte for life.

I suspect that the bias against classical vocal music... and especially opera... is one of the reasons that the true admirers of these genre can often be passionate to the point of obsession. By far, vocal music is my greatest passion among classical music: opera, choral music, cantatas, madrigals, motets, lieder, chanson, romances, mélodie, songs...


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Andreas said:


> There are many choral works that I love very much. Yet, I find that there's an element of vulgarity in all singing. The immediacy of expression, unfiltered by an instrument's neutral matter, always somehow strikes me as non-musical to a certain degree. Singing is the most natural way of making music, or course, but that kind of seems like a contradiction in itself. I've learned to love choral music, which took some time, and many of my favourite works have elaborate solo vocal parts. Still, the singing and the playing never really merge into one for me, nor do I ever mistake one for the other.


I couldn't _dis_agree more. I agree that some interpreters are very vulgar, full of mannerisms, but I think these are characteristics of the interpreters, not of the medium.
I don't hear nothing vulgar here, indeed the opposite!:





 (Codex Calixtinus - Congaudeant catholici)





 (Maurice Ravel: Trois Chansons - II: Trois Beaux Oiseaux du Paradis)





, 



 (Ligeti: Lux Aeterna, Requiem: II: Kyrie)


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

violadude said:


> I've noticed that there is this trend for many people who get into classical music to steer clear of vocal music for quite some time.... And notice that this is a similar pattern for many people that get into classical music, with the exception of people that get into it through Opera.
> 
> So what is it about vocal music that makes it seemingly so much more unappealing to people relatively newer to classical music?


I believe for many of us it's about getting into "non-vocal music", not classical music, by being drawn to video game, movie scores, jazz and world folk as well. Disliking voices is a matter of taste, like anything else I suppose. My favorite piece of music was written as an opera and I don't even listen to the opera rendition! I believe it takes something fundamentally innocent and spiritual away from music, when classical can be so lush and ecstatic by itself. Instruments must have been crafted for a reason, to connect with something beyond ourselves.

Vocal music makes me think civilization and people. I'm naturally quite introverted, for some reason I just find people too ordinary. Instrumental makes me think nature/fantasy, adventure, places and moods untouched by man. It takes me away to a lost world, sparks my imagination.

I also think it may have to do with lyrics. I like choir "ahs" but opera has always come off a bit silly to me. It yields a lot of slow and scattered music, and I prefer something with a pulse and melody, something really alive than just dramatic.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Borodin said:


> I believe for many of us it's about getting into "non-vocal music", not classical music, by being drawn to video game, movie scores and jazz as well. Disliking voices is a matter of taste, like anything else I suppose. My favorite piece of music was written as an opera and I don't even listen to the opera rendition! I believe it takes something fundamentally innocent and spiritual away from music. Instruments must have been crafted for a reason, to connect with something beyond ourselves.


Great way of speaking about it. Instruments created a surreal experience when used in a certain way. Humanizing it with a voice kind of ruins it for me.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I always had a morbid love/hate fascination with the "mannered" macho male vocal style I call "1960s macho male front-man" style. This includes Gary Puckett & the Union Gap _(Young Girl, Woman) , _Iron Butterfly (Doug Ingle doing _In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida_), David Clayton-Thomas in Blood, Sweat, and Tears (_You've Made Me So Very Happy, Spinnin' Wheel_).

Robert Plant's over-the-top vocals on Whole Lotta Love verge on being ridiculously humorous.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> I always had a morbid love/hate fascination with the "mannered" macho male vocal style I call "1960s macho male front-man" style. This includes Gary Puckett & the Union Gap _(Young Girl, Woman) , _Iron Butterfly (Doug Ingle doing _In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida_), David Clayton-Thomas in Blood, Sweat, and Tears (_You've Made Me So Very Happy, Spinnin' Wheel_).


To be fair, though, that style has spawned many perfectly good beer commercials.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

> Sometimes I like to have Madonna "whisper in my ear," or hear Jimi Hendrix mumble something, and in many ways, this is more "natural" and conversational than the projected operatic voices we hear in CM.


You just made me remember Edita Gruberová whom I've heard twice this year in a hall with 2300 seats. She has a kind of skillful and sensitive _pianissimo_ that objectively is loud enough to fill the hall, but so subtle that it arrives with that precise effect, whispering in your ear. And the woman is standing there on that stage, opens her mouth and the sound comes out, only the air takes it to my ears -- nothing can replace the intensity of that particular experience, which I regard a natural.

I like musical genres as well which utilize amplified vocals (experienced singers can even use a hand-held microphone in a way that subtly varies the sound). I possibly couldn't say which one was "better", and why would I choose? It's just different.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Borodin said:


> I believe for many of us it's about getting into "non-vocal music", not classical music, by being drawn to video game, movie scores, jazz and world folk as well. Disliking voices is a matter of taste, like anything else I suppose. My favorite piece of music was written as an opera and I don't even listen to the opera rendition! *I believe it takes something* fundamentally innocent and *spiritual away from music*. Instruments must have been crafted for a reason, to connect with something beyond ourselves.
> 
> Edit: also, instrumental music makes me think nature/fantasy, vocal makes me think civilization. I personally have the heart of an adventurer.


To each their own, but I can't fathom someone listening to works such as Bach's Mass in B minor, or St. Matthew Passion, and feeling that the use of vocal's in these pieces take something spiritual away from the music. Church music started off as pure vocal. The human voice is used in spiritual practices in many different cultures and religions from around the world. If you don't enjoy the sound of the human voice used in music that is totally understandable, but I don't agree with the spirituality argument.


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

tdc said:


> To each their own, but I can't fathom someone listening to works such as Bach's Mass in B minor, or St. Matthew Passion, and feeling that the use of vocal's in these pieces take something spiritual away from the music. Church music started off as pure vocal. The human voice is used in spiritual practices in many different cultures and religions from around the world. If you don't enjoy the sound of the human voice used in music that is totally understandable, but I don't agree with the spirituality argument.


I think I have a different definition of spiritual than most people. Spiritual is the only word I can find to define something like 1:43 - 2:30 



 or 2:15 - 3:00 



. Perhaps it is more like mysticism, reaching out to a natural hidden spirit beyond what we can see. It's like the wind in the trees.

If you have a better word for me to use, do share! I'm bad at explaining.



neoshredder said:


> Great way of speaking about it. Instruments created a surreal experience when used in a certain way. Humanizing it with a voice kind of ruins it for me.


Indeed! And surreal, that's another favorite word.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Borodin said:


> I think I have a different definition of spiritual than most people. Spiritual is the only word I can find to define something like 1:43 - 2:30
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand what you mean. For you certain music that you enjoy listening to evokes a kind of mystical, and spiritual experience, and the vocals takes that away from you. That is completely fine, and I can relate to that. But I was just pointing out the negation of spirituality in vocal music is just based on your subjective perception, and from my point of view the voice works great (but is not strictly necessary) in evoking this type of subjective spiritual musical experience. Many composers from the past and present from many different styles and genres seem to also feel the same way.


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## Borodin (Apr 8, 2013)

tdc said:


> I understand what you mean. For you certain music that you enjoy listening to evokes a kind of mystical, and spiritual experience, and the vocals takes that away from you. That is completely fine, and I can relate to that. But I was just pointing out the negation of spirituality in vocal music is just based on your subjective perception, and from my point of view the voice works great (but is not strictly necessary) in evoking this type of subjective spiritual musical experience. Many composers from the past and present from many different styles and genres seem to also feel the same way.


Agreed. Spiritual is probably not the objective way to define this taste in non-vocal music. Non-vocal probably has more to do with sparking a surreal naturality or to depart from civilization, a place where the main voice of human is no longer accessible or needed. It is not "uncivilized" as this usually intends _some_ form of humanity. It is just raw and natural. In any case, there is some kind of contrast between vocal and instrumental music where some just relate more to one over the other. Maybe non-vocal fans feel more like hermits or distant spirits not a part of society and culture. Though tastes do change over time.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

To paraphrase one dedication of Franz Schubert's
_
"This piece is dedicated to anyone who cares to listen to it."_

*Oliver Messiaen ~ Trois petites liturgies de la présence divine*

[Piano solo / Ondes Martenot solo / Unison chorus of 36 female voices
Percussion ensemble: vibraphone; celeste; suspended cymbal; tamtam; maracas.
Strngs: 8 first violins, 8 second violins, 6 violas, 6 cellos, and 4 contrabasses]


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe because they get their vocal fill from popular music? So many non-classical genres focus on the voice, and classical is one where voice is _not _the main focus in much of the genre.

That said, opera was really the first form of classical music I was introduced to, so this doesn't really apply to me


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

It must be down only to personal taste because I can't possibly understand anyone not liking vocal music.
But PetrB and St.Lukes have been very eloquent and that precludes any more from me--for a change !!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

For people like me who grew up in the 1950s & 1960s in a non-classical household, it's a class thing. Listen to old TV or radio broadcasts of those days & the announcer sounds unbelievably posh and sort of patronising-jolly, as if he (usually a he) knows what is good for us oiks! Opera voices & also the BBC singers of hymns etc on the radio had that same posh timbre. It was fun among us kids to do a take off of the posh-warbling of these singers. My brother did a particularly good impression of an operatic tenor & if he was a bit out of tune - well, some tenors were so busy wobbling that it was hard to tell which note they meant to hit.

Classical tunes were different - they had rhythm, they carried you along, they were signature tunes or advertising, so heard in more alluring circs. Plus, without voices, their class origins were not so blatant.

Thank the Lord, I've overcome my inverted snobbery & come to enjoy opera at last. But I also think the style has changed & become more natural (though what do I know!). 
Certainly the BBC singers don't sound any more as if they have quite such a large plum in their mouths!


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

I've never had a problem with vocal music, but - of course - I'm Estonian.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

violadude said:


> So what is it about vocal music that makes it seemingly so much more unappealing to people relatively newer to classical music?


Without doubt I like instrumental and vocal music equally well - there are times (increasingly) when I prefer vocal music, however. There is a human "warmth" in vocal music that simply cannot be captured purely instrumentally. The human voice is the finest instrument in existence - no other can include semantically rich chunks (words) in it's performance. I also enjoy opera very much - however, lover of vocal music that I am, I concede that a too wide vibrato - in all ranges - bellowing or shrieking to be heard over the orchestra destroys the charm and beauty of the voice.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson singing Handel Arias (in SACD): wanna see a grown man cry?:lol:


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Ingenue said:


> For people like me who grew up in the 1950s & 1960s in a non-classical household, it's a class thing. Listen to old TV or radio broadcasts of those days & the announcer sounds unbelievably posh and sort of patronising-jolly, as if he (usually a he) knows what is good for us oiks!


The classic example of this was a Radio Ballad by Ewan McColl on mining called the Big Hewer - introduced in impeccable BBC RP it then morphed into an incredible vox pop from a Durham miner in an almost incomprehensible North Eastern accent.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Lorraine Hunt-Lieberson singing Handel Arias (in SACD): wanna see a grown man cry?

Of course there's always Lorraine's classic heart-breaking performance of her husband, Peter Lieberson's Neruda Songs... with the final song: _Amor mío, si muero y tú no mueres (My love, if I die and you don't)._

Or perhaps even more tear-inducing is Kathleen Ferrier's performance of Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_. The final song, _Der Abschied_, conveys the longings and yearnings and finally resigned acceptance of death in the face of life. Here we have the resignation of a composer knowingly facing certain death sung by a brilliant young singer also facing imminent death. As the song... and the entire work fades into an infinity of repeated `ewig...ewigs' Ferrier famously forgot one "ewig". In awe of the conductor, Bruno Walter, she reportedly ran up to him to apologize... admitting that she had become so far lost in the music. Walter replied to an effect, "It is not you who should apologize, but we who should apologize for if we were truly human we should all be in tears."


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Taggart said:


> The classic example of this was a Radio Ballad by Ewan McColl on mining called the Big Hewer - introduced in impeccable BBC RP it then morphed into an incredible vox pop from a Durham miner in an almost incomprehensible North Eastern accent.


The members mostly don't know that you two are showing a typical chip on the shoulder northern attitude towards "poshness"


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## mgj15 (Feb 17, 2011)

I've slowly been enjoying vocal music more over time, but I'm not fully there. It was mostly popular pieces that broke my ears in, so to speak; LvB 9, Orff and pieces I couldn't even name. Then came Mahler and his vocal symphonies/Das Lied... and from there, I came to enjoying masses, a number of the more famous requiems, LvB's Missa Solemnis, Mahler's Das klagende Lied. I still can't fully ingest whole operas yet, so my experience in composers like, say, Wagner is limited (as an example). While, when i am in the mood for some vocal music, I still gravitate towards grander scale works with large choral accompaniment. In operas the soloist characters get tiresome, so I wind up feeling like they're stepping on music I'd rather be listening to on its own. Though, tastes evolve overtime, it's not a case of anything being written off; I either get it at one point, or I don't.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

moody said:


> The members mostly don't know that you two are showing a typical chip on the shoulder northern attitude towards "poshness"


Hah. Not only that, what little usage 'posh' has in the US refers to surroundings, the furniture/decor in a home or restaurant. I can relate to 'plummy', but that is due to a fondness for P.G. Wodehouse stories.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah. Not only that, what little usage 'posh' has in the US refers to surroundings, the furniture/decor in a home or restaurant. I can relate to 'plummy', bu
> A British TV company recently attempted to bring the Blandings Castle series to the small screen .it was a disaster!
> I still think that the Jeeves and Wooster original series done with Ian Carmichael and Denis Price was the best effort in that direction,did you see it ?


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mgj15 said:


> In operas the soloist characters get tiresome


how do you mean?


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> ...Kathleen Ferrier's performance of Mahler's _Das Lied von der Erde_...Here we have the resignation of a composer knowingly facing certain death sung by a brilliant young singer also facing imminent death.


And if you listen to it as you are facing imminent death, I'm sure the effect would be intensified. :lol: I'll seek that one out.

For me, the Mahler Kindentotenlieder with Janet Baker/Bernstein (available with Mahler 8 2-CD Sony) is the tear-jerker that always gets me.

I didn't start having these sorts of reactions until after the passing of my mother.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

mgj15 said:


> I've slowly been enjoying vocal music more over time, but I'm not fully there. It was mostly popular pieces that broke my ears in, so to speak; LvB 9, Orff and pieces I couldn't even name. Then came Mahler and his vocal symphonies/Das Lied... and from there, I came to enjoying masses, a number of the more famous requiems, LvB's Missa Solemnis, Mahler's Das klagende Lied. I still can't fully ingest whole operas yet, so my experience in composers like, say, Wagner is limited (as an example). While, when i am in the mood for some vocal music, I still gravitate towards grander scale works with large choral accompaniment. In operas the soloist characters get tiresome, so I wind up feeling like they're stepping on music I'd rather be listening to on its own. Though, tastes evolve overtime, it's not a case of anything being written off; I either get it at one point, or I don't.


Slight problem...if you remove the "tiresome" soloists it's not an opera really. I've seen some interesting thoughts on opera but yours is quite high on my list.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

moody said:


> The members mostly don't know that you two are showing a typical chip on the shoulder northern attitude towards "poshness"


Well, it's strange if they don't, because if you read what I posted, I said that I was pleased to have overcome my inverted snobbery. The OP was asking why people didn't go for vocal classical music & I was explaining what had happened in my own case.

You wouldn't happen to have a typical chip on the shoulder southern attitude towards northerners, would you, moody, by any chance? 

Never mind - we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns - have a nice day anyway!


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

moody said:


> The members mostly don't know that you two are showing a typical chip on the shoulder northern attitude towards "poshness"


As a Scot, I was merely giving a specific example of how BBC speak differed from vox pop in the 1950's. The radio ballads with the pseudo Scot James Miller (aka Ewan MacColl) are a prime source of British dialect next to the work of Alan Lomax.

Non British members should be aware that Northerner (as used in England) generally refers to a person from the North of England.

I have been referred to as a Southerner myself. (when working in Aberdeen )

Have a nice day.


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## mgj15 (Feb 17, 2011)

deggial said:


> how do you mean?


The back and forth "conversational" aspect, it wears on me, rather than some of the other more direct vocal performances in the other types of pieces I mentioned. Now, I've got limited experience, so my knowledge and terminology is most likely suspect at best, so I may not be expressing myself well. I'm not offering this opinion to say "I'd rather opera be...", I understand this is just how opera is and accept that, for my tastes right now, I'm not able to get into it. It's along the lines of preferring a movie over a staged play where the dialog is sung.

That said, there is a piece from Der Rosenkavalier that I've heard and like with I believe, a soprano and a mezzo soprano. It has the aspect that I love about the fifth movement of Mahler's 2nd, where the vocalists intertwine their parts rather than simply go back and forth. And I'm sure, no doubt, there are many more examples of that style that I'm just not aware of yet.

I should also add I'm much more drawn to the female voice. I certainly appreciate, even enjoy, some male vocalists, but something about that range the women get just does it for me.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

mgj15 said:


> The back and forth "conversational" aspect, it wears on me, rather than some of the other more direct vocal performances in the other types of pieces I mentioned. [...]
> 
> That said, there is a piece from Der Rosenkavalier that I've heard and like with I believe, a soprano and a mezzo soprano. It has the aspect that I love about the fifth movement of Mahler's 2nd, where the vocalists intertwine their parts rather than simply go back and forth. And I'm sure, no doubt, there are many more examples of that style that I'm just not aware of yet.
> 
> I should also add I'm much more drawn to the female voice. I certainly appreciate, even enjoy, some male vocalists, but something about that range the women get just does it for me.


you're in luck, though, as the conversational aspect - I take it you're referring to recitatives - is more the domain of 18th century opera, up to Romantic times, when they got tired of the aria-recitative-aria formula and the whole shebang began to run without breaks (also because composers became more interested in orchestration). You should check out the rest of Der Rosenkavalier, as the bit you've mentioned is very representative of it. Strauss is big on the soprano voice, so you should be fine with his operas - if you decide to investigate further.


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## mgj15 (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks for the recommendation! Who knows, perhaps it's just a matter of finding that right piece to put me in the right direction.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2013)

Here's a newbie question: why are so many (95% ???) of the female vocal parts in lieder, opera, etc, written for sopranos, often the screechingly high sopranos? There seems to be a fetish in classical music for the female soprano voice.

Alternatively, what are some of the better vocal works out there for altos and other female voices?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

BPS said:


> Here's a newbie question: why are so many (95% ???) of the female vocal parts in lieder, opera, etc, written for sopranos, often the screechingly high sopranos? There seems to be a fetish in classical music for the female soprano voice.
> 
> Alternatively, what are some of the better vocal works out there for altos and other female voices?


Well, I don't find good soprano-singing "screechy", but to each their own. I think the main reason the soprano (or tenor, in the case of men) range is favored is because that's where we normally expect a melody to be from conventions in instrumental and choral writing.

Mahler's Das Lied von der Erde is for tenor and alto soloists (alternating odd and even-numbered movements).


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I think a big part of it is that, unless you speak the language that the vocal music was written in, you miss out on a big part of the music. Although admittedly, there are more than a few English vocal pieces that I can't understand a word of lol! Funny story but I was listening to one recently, and I was thinking "what language is this in? It sounds like it may be German...". I looked it up and sure enough, it was English all along!

I like quite a bit of vocal music, but I know that personally this is my biggest barrier. It's a lot easier to listen to a 3-hr oratorio when you actually know what's being said and what's happening. There have even been a few pieces that I initially didn't like at all, but upon actually googling for a translation ended up really enjoying, after being able to link the text to the music.


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## KRoad (Jun 1, 2012)

Yes, opera and oratorio listening pleasure is GREATLY enhanced with a little google research, text book burrowing, and access to an English (the TC lingua franca) translation of the libretto. As with many things in life - what you get out of something is proportional to what you put into it. I find a little effort pays good dividends with these genres.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2013)

peeyaj said:


> For me, its different..
> 
> I am introduced to orchestral music, but gradually over time I have become equally or more enamored with vocal music. Listening to Schubert's Lieder have been a very enlightening experience. In my experience, becoming in love with Lieder is the hardest aspect in the journey of a classical fan.."_too intimate, boring, etc_" ( evidenced with the lack of interest in Lieder in TC). But I love it anyway.. It is different but equally rewarding


I clicked on this with a momentarily open mind - but it sounded exactly as I expected, so I quickly switched it off. It just doesn't appeal - can't put my finger on why, though I'm sure that associations with wobbliness have some part to play! Sorry peeyaj!



millionrainbows said:


> Sometimes I like to have Madonna "whisper in my ear," or hear Jimi Hendrix mumble something, and in many ways, this is more "natural" and conversational than the projected operatic voices we hear in CM.


Or, in my case, Stina Nordenstam or Thom Yorke.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

peeyaj said:


> Listening to Schubert's Lieder have been a very enlightening experience. In my experience, becoming in love with Lieder is the hardest aspect in the journey of a classical fan.."_too intimate, boring, etc_" ( evidenced with the lack of interest in Lieder in TC). But I love it anyway.. It is different but equally rewarding


You're so very right. I'm at a loss how anybody could find a piece like the _Erlkönig_ "boring". It's more genuinely disturbing than a whole bunch of Freddy Krueger videos.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Vocal music is catered for by popular music for most people, so it's probably easier to get into classical through intstrumental music which most likely has fewer preconceptions.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

I never cared for vocal music when I was younger, although I'm not exactly sure why.

These days, Palestrina, Tallis, Cherubini, Rameau, Campra, Porpora, Paisiello, etc. are favorites.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ebab said:


> You're so very right. I'm at a loss how anybody could find a piece like the _Erlkönig_ "boring". It's more genuinely disturbing than a whole bunch of Freddy Krueger videos.


It doesn't mean Elf King,it means King of the Alders.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ebab said:


> You're so very right. I'm at a loss how anybody could find a piece like the _Erlkönig_ "boring". It's more genuinely disturbing than a whole bunch of Freddy Krueger videos.


no kidding. If anything, I can't listen to it too much else I get quite low in mood.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

BPS said:


> Here's a newbie question: why are so many (95% ???) of the female vocal parts in lieder, opera, etc, written for sopranos, often the screechingly high sopranos? There seems to be a fetish in classical music for the female soprano voice.
> 
> Alternatively, what are some of the better vocal works out there for altos and other female voices?


There are many including :
Brahms Alto rhapsody.
Mahler Das Lied Von der Erde.
Bizet Carmen
Rossini La Cenerentola
" Il Barbiere di Saviglia
" L'Italiana In Algeri
Mozart Le Nozze di Figaro
Thomas Mignon
Saint-Saens Samson et Delila
Humperdinck Hansel und Gretel

You must furnish yourself with the words before listening to works in a foreign language e.g. Gustav Kobbes Complete Opera Book.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

moody said:


> It doesn't mean Elf King,it means King of the Alders.


I can confirm that. Incidentally though, the goethean "Erlkönig" ("Alder King") is based on another mistranslation, that of a Danish ballad into German. The Danish character is an _elverkonge_, which in fact means "Elf King". Johann Gottfried Herder translated the ballad into German and created the name "Erlkönig", presumably by mistake.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ebab said:


> I can confirm that. Incidentally though, the goethean "Erlkönig" ("Alder King") is based on another mistranslation, that of a Danish ballad into German. The Danish character is an _elverkonge_, which in fact means "Elf King". Johann Gottfried Herder translated the ballad into German and created the name "Erlkönig", presumably by mistake.


Do you know Loewe's version of Erlkoenig ?I am often torn between the two.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

moody said:


> Do you know Loewe's version of Erlkoenig ?I am often torn between the two.


Loewe's version may not quite have the unnervingly compact sense of urgency and paranoia that Schubert's has, but I find it very impressive and colorful as well. Loewe is a precise illustrator and effective always in the service of the words; Schubert may be a little bolder, and build more on the overall underlying sense of terror. But that's just nuances. I find both approaches very satisfying, and the results show a lot of parallels too.

Loewe's ballads used to be so widely-known even in popular culture in the German-speaking countries, and are today met almost with condescension. That's a pity because they have a lot to give.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

I do like Vocal Music but i am a bit more particular about it than with instrumental musics. I really love renaissance polyphony and that is my main interest in this genre. I dont mind other vocal music as long as the language is English or French - I dont really respond very well to Lieder and the like! :lol:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Ebab said:


> Loewe's version may not quite have the unnervingly compact sense of urgency and paranoia that Schubert's has, but I find it very impressive and colorful as well. Loewe is a precise illustrator and effective always in the service of the words; Schubert may be a little bolder, and build more on the overall underlying sense of terror. But that's just nuances. I find both approaches very satisfying, and the results show a lot of parallels too.
> 
> Loewe's ballads used to be so widely-known even in popular culture in the German-speaking countries, and are today met almost with condescension. That's a pity because they have a lot to give.


I've got as many recordings of Loewe as I could find. His Erlkoenig is more mysterious with the piano reflecting the wind in the trees rather than the pounding of the horse.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

I attended my first all-Choral concert today and I enjoyed it much more than I thought I would. Most of the works were _a cappella_and the two choruses who performed were excellent.


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