# Dresden vs. Paris Tannhäuser



## Trollcannon (11 mo ago)

So which do you prefer? I personally like the Paris version more for the following reasons:

The proponents of Dresden extol musical coherence as its virtue, citing the apparent aesthetic incongruity of the _Tristan_-esque additions to Act I within the broader opera. I, however, am not convinced. The jarring aesthetic difference after Tannhäuser ends his sojourn in the Venusberg heightens the contrast between Venus’ eroticism and Wartburg’s conservative sensibilities. 
The Paris version has a certain historical heft associated with it. _Tannhäuser_ was a very problematic opera for Wagner and he was never truly satisfied with it (famously quipping that he still owed the world a _Tannhäuser_ to Cosima). The frustrated sensualism of the Venusberg music, with its straining towards a failed climax, captures Wagner’s own intellectual dilemma, not dissimilar to that faced by the eponymous character himself.
Venus becomes a much more interesting character – more of an equal to Elizabeth – rendering Tannhäuser’s struggle between these two females all the more intense.
I am creating this thread because it seems to me that recent productions favour Dresden over Paris leaving me to wonder why this preference.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Paris version for me but, as you say, not too often performed.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

There's a trend in opera to go back to the "original" version of an opera partly based on the idea that original means authentic. That's why I imagine many see the first version of Boris Godunov and the Dresden Tannhauser as "what the composer would have wanted".

I feel there is so little between the two versions (and some recordings conflate both versions) that I'm not much bothered. However, since the Paris version was the one that I saw first and got to know first, the Dresden always feels incomplete to me. Therefore, I prefer Paris.

N.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Coherence, schmoherence! Paris is just better, and not by a little. Wagner had lots of time to send Venus to sexpot finishing school, and when you've bathed in the luxuriance of a singer like Christa Ludwig, purring her insinuating, Tristanesque chromatics into Tannhauser's ear, you rather regret having to end your Venusberg resort vacation and go back to eating pork and sauerkraut. When you do, though, the contrast of musical styles can be bracing if the rest of the singers are good. What would Wagner have done with the rest of the opera had he revised it? Pity we'll never know.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

It is worth remembering that the 'Paris' version which we normally hear is actually an 1875 revision done for a Vienna staging. While is is based on the 1861 'Paris' version, there are a number of changes, not the least being sung in German rather than the French translation. Because Wagner prepared the Vienna version, it is reasonable to assume that it represents his latest documented preferences.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> It is worth remembering that the 'Paris' version which we normally hear is actually an 1875 revision done for a Vienna staging. While is is based on the 1861 'Paris' version, there are a number of changes, not the least being sung in German rather than the French translation. Because Wagner prepared the Vienna version, it is reasonable to assume that it represents his latest documented preferences.


Good point. I wonder whether there were any musical changes between Paris and Vienna? And whether the actual Paris version has been done since? Probably only in France, if ever.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Good point. I wonder whether there were any musical changes between Paris and Vienna? And whether the actual Paris version has been done since? Probably only in France, if ever.


One that I know about is linking the overture into the Venusburg scene.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Ah yes... I recall that now. The overture is terrific as a stand-alone piece, but morphing it into the bacchanale is an inspired stroke.


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## Andrew Kenneth (Feb 17, 2018)

The Paris version (in french) was performed in 2017 in Monte-Carlo.

This performance is available on youtube =>


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## Trollcannon (11 mo ago)

The Conte said:


> There's a trend in opera to go back to the "original" version of an opera partly based on the idea that original means authentic. That's why I imagine many see the first version of Boris Godunov and the Dresden Tannhauser as "what the composer would have wanted".
> 
> N.


I suspect that there are a certain strain of conductors over in Germany that feel some responsibility in 'preserving their national heritage' (I am thinking of purists like Thielemann here) and as a reflex they feel it right to discount Wagner's changes which seemingly conform to the traditions of another nation (France, in this instance). I may be wrong here but historically Paris was the predominant version and it was only until recently that Dresden has made a resurgence. 

I also find the idea of the Dresden version being 'what the composer would have wanted' somewhat flawed for if it was _truly_ what he wanted, then he would not have taken to altering it for some thirty odd years.


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## Trollcannon (11 mo ago)

Becca said:


> It is worth remembering that the 'Paris' version which we normally hear is actually an 1875 revision done for a Vienna staging. While is is based on the 1861 'Paris' version, there are a number of changes, not the least being sung in German rather than the French translation. Because Wagner prepared the Vienna version, it is reasonable to assume that it represents his latest documented preferences.


Yes, you are completely correct. The whole 'Paris-Dresden' nomenclature is a bit misleading but harmless on the whole. _Tannhäuser_, in being such a problematic opera for Wagner, naturally has a complicated version history that I'm sure some expert somewhere can expound upon.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Trollcannon said:


> I suspect that there are a certain strain of conductors over in Germany that feel some responsibility in 'preserving their national heritage' (I am thinking of purists like Thielemann here) and as a reflex they feel it right to discount Wagner's changes which seemingly conform to the traditions of another nation (France, in this instance). I may be wrong here but historically Paris was the predominant version and it was only until recently that Dresden has made a resurgence.
> 
> *I also find the idea of the Dresden version being 'what the composer would have wanted' somewhat flawed for if it was truly what he wanted, then he would not have taken to altering it for some thirty odd years.*


He did say in later years that he "still owed the world a Tannhauser." It's clear that the opera was never exactly what he "would have wanted" it to be, or imagined it could be. I'm fine with performing both or all versions, with no need to rationalize or justify, and the same goes for Verdi's _Don Carlo(s)_ and _Macbeth_. But composers of this calibre don't revise their work without good reason, and once you've heard the revisions it's hard to want to do without them. If losing "La luce langue" is the price of hearing the original Lady Macbeth, I don't want to. And Dresden Venus is a hausfrau of a hooker.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> He did say in later years that he "still owed the world a Tannhauser." It's clear that the opera was never exactly what he "would have wanted" it to be, or imagined it could be. I'm fine with performing both or all versions, with no need to rationalize or justify, and the same goes for Verdi's _Don Carlo(s)_ and _Macbeth_. But composers of this calibre don't revise their work without good reason, and once you've heard the revisions it's hard to want to do without them. If losing "La luce langue" is the price of hearing the original Lady Macbeth, I don't want to. And Dresden Venus is a hausfrau of a hooker.


I'm of very much the same mind. You can add the revised Simon Boccanegra to the list as well as the second version of Boris Godunov (although the argument that Mussorgsky only made changes because he had to lends weight to the earlier version being his preferred one). There's no place for the Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration to be chosen over Mussorgsky's own, now that we can appreciate the idiosyncrasy of his style.

There are at least two operas where I think the first thoughts are to be preferred over the latter ones: Verdi's Stiffelio and I Lombardi. Interestingly the revisions also included revising their titles (Perhaps Verdi felt the changes were so marked he might as well have been writing new works.)

N.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

The Conte said:


> I'm of very much the same mind. You can add the revised Simon Boccanegra to the list as well as the second version of Boris Godunov (although the argument that Mussorgsky only made changes because he had to lends weight to the earlier version being his preferred one). There's no place for the Rimsky-Korsakov orchestration to be chosen over Mussorgsky's own, now that we can appreciate the idiosyncrasy of his style.
> 
> There are at least two operas where I think the first thoughts are to be preferred over the latter ones: Verdi's Stiffelio and I Lombardi. Interestingly the revisions also included revising their titles (Perhaps Verdi felt the changes were so marked he might as well have been writing new works.)
> 
> N.


Didn’t Verdi re-write *I Lombardi alla Prima crociatta *for Paris (*Jerusalem*)?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

MAS said:


> Didn’t Verdi re-write *I Lombardi alla Prima crociatta *for Paris (*Jerusalem*)?


Yes, that's exactly what I am referring to and I think Lombardi is the better opera. There is little new material in Jerusalem that is worth keeping in the rep and the Paris revision is inevitably longer than the original, more compact and direct Italian style opera. An opera of this level of quality is better served by brevity.

N.


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