# The phenomenon of the standing ovation



## Clockwork

With my father, I went to see the Amsterdam Symphony Orchestra a few weeks ago. (Being from Toronto, we decided since we were in the neighbourhood, may as well experience full-on Dutch culture.) The symphony was solid, but it wasn't _remarkable_; there was a British couple beside us who agreed, only after things ended and many native Netherlanders gave them a three-minute standing ovation, that we didn't feel it was anything so great.

I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this. It could just be Canada's nonchalant patriotism that stands in stark comparison to Holland's, but I find that much undeserved praise to be kind of wonky.


----------



## Weston

I think it has become part of the ritual and part of our culture. We want to have an exdtraordinary experience, and we know the audience participates in the experience by our attitude. I had a similar experience in Nashville attending what I thought was a solid but not very passionate performance of a well known work. I joined in. I mean _*I *_couldn't have sung any of it that well.

It could be worse. In rock or pop concerts, the encores are built in. The groups don't play their radio hits until they've already left the stage at least once, sometimes twice. It's also a way to keep people from leaving early. We all know this is prefabricated hooey, but the ritual of it is fun nonetheless.


----------



## JSK

I've been to extremely underwhelming community orchestra concerts which have been given standing ovations for their mediocrity. I understand that many of the people standing up are supporting friends who are playing, but there is a huge element of pretension with some of these community orchestras. They just think they are so much better than they are because there is nothing better around.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Really am afraid that going to holland and then trying to absorb the dutch culture by visiting a concert of the amsterdam symphony orchestra is not the best thing to do. Firstly - classical music is not really in our culture at all, name five noteworthy dutch composers other than Sweelinck or Diepenbrock (did you even know them?)

secondly - You should have seen the Concertgebouw Orkest instead, id never even heard of the ASO but Concertgebouw is our pride in this field.


----------



## David C Coleman

Here in Britain I've only seen rapturous ovations at the London Proms Concerts. Most other times it's a restrained, courteous affair. Must reflect British character I guess..


----------



## handlebar

I have been to plenty of mediocre concerts and refuse to give more than a clap or two if it warrants it. And just because the performer might be world renown is no reason to give standing ovations.
I attended a Barenboim concert in London one time when he was on tour with the Chicago S.O.
A lackluster performance which made me sit through the standing ovation. Even the folks next to us sat as well.

Jim


----------



## Tapkaara

I saw the world premiere of a avant-garde work by a Dutch composer at the LA Phil a few months back. The Hague Hacking by Louis Andriessen. It was typical avant-garde nonsense without a hint of originality. At th end, most of the audience did not stand. Only a few in the whole house (which looked sold out) stood to applaud. There were others who sat and appluaded, but I did not. I saw many others also not applauding. I was actually impressed with the honesty of the audience.

After that, Salonen conducted The Rite and you better believe I gave a standing ovation (as did practically everyone in the house) for THAT performance. To see Salonene perform the The Rite at The Walt Disney Hall...music simply does not get better than this.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Shame about the Andriessen, he recently turned 70 and I read an interview with him in the paper. Seemed like a nice guy who knew his music.


----------



## Tapkaara

emiellucifuge said:


> Shame about the Andriessen, he recently turned 70 and I read an interview with him in the paper. Seemed like a nice guy who knew his music.


I was really dissapointed. He gave a fairly intimate pre-concert lecture on the work and he comes off as very witty and amiable. He even made a last minute adjustment to the score during rehearsals where he decided to reduce the strings, so it was fascinating to hear about the evolution of the work as it was actually happening.

Anyway, he seemed so interesting that when I actually heard the work, I was very let down. A lot of others were too.


----------



## JoeGreen

There was an article about the standing ovation in the _San Diego Union Tribune_ a while back ago, if I can find it I'll post it.

But I do feel that it's becoming overused, and losing it's original significance. I try to reserve my standing ovations, but once everybody around you is doing it, it's hard not to join in.

One of the reasons might do with the fact that not many people are going to classical concerts frequently these days, and so when they do the performance truly feels unique, even if it wasn't.


----------



## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> After that, Salonen conducted The Rite and you better believe I gave a standing ovation (as did practically everyone in the house) for THAT performance. To see Salonene perform the The Rite at The Walt Disney Hall...music simply does not get better than this.


Salonen is a pretty good conductor, his own music, however, is terrible, so don't even listen to it. If he played that avant-garde crap and I was in the audience you better believe I would walk out. I don't tolerate nonsense "music."

His Stravinsky recordings are probably going to be his legacy, but he's still young. We'll see what else he has up his sleeve.


----------



## Sid James

This is a bit off-topic, but I think that it's the negative attitudes to contemporary music which makes concert programmers so conservative in the first place. Perhaps if audiences were a bit more receptive to contemporary music (and by that I kind of mean anything post 1930's) we wouldn't get the situation that the most contemporary piece on a whole season's concert program is _The Rite of Spring_. We are in 2009 now, this is ridiculous! The more Varese, Carter, Messiaen, Henze, etc on concert programs I think, the better! Even if I had the money, I would never subscribe to my city's symphony orchestra for this reason. What they dish up is simply stale and boring. I've heard it all before...

About the standing ovation, I have never witnessed one but a friend of mine did when she attended a Sydney performance of Orff's _Carmina Burana_. The performers did several curtain calls and sang _O fortuna _as an encore many times. Still, the audience did not want to let them go. This did not happen recently when I attended a performance of the same work...


----------



## Tapkaara

I found the Andriessen piece I was talking about earlier. This is not the performance I attended. I saw the world premiere in Los Angeles; this performance is the Dutch premiere from earlier this month:





 (part I)





 (part II)


----------



## emiellucifuge

I dont find it that bad to be honest.

hey Andre, I really think there is a difference between the music of messiaen (which is still music) and some of Varese which is really just some random and strange noises.


----------



## Tapkaara

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont find it that bad to be honest.


Well, at least you can enjoy this!


----------



## Sid James

emiellucifuge said:


> hey Andre, I really think there is a difference between the music of messiaen (which is still music) and some of Varese which is really just some random and strange noises.


I disagree with that, but my point was more to do with the comparative lack of performance of works produced after 1930. Sure, some programs may have a smattering of pieces by Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Bartok, & others, but there is still a whole range of repertoire that is being neglected. It might not even be as modern as Varese. I dare say more digestible neo-romantic composers like Barber, Korngold & Walton are neglected as well.


----------



## YsayeOp.27#6

handlebar said:


> I attended a Barenboim concert in London one time when he was on tour with the Chicago S.O. A lackluster performance which made me sit through the standing ovation. Even the folks next to us sat as well.


I attended a concert in which Shlomo Mintz messed up with the Beethoven concerto: awful phrasing, as his bowing looked totally improvised (he didn't bother to make efficient use of the bow, and when switching directions he added unrequired accents everywhere); his intonation wasn't what you would expect from an international concert soloist (and he didn't compensate it with an expressive execution and rich dynamics).
I didn't applaud, but everybody else in the hall went absolutely crazy about his playing! The funny thing is my expression of disdain caught the attention of people sitting next to me, who asked why I didn't join them in acknowledging such high level of artistry.


----------



## Edward Elgar

If he's played a concerto, (however badly), he deserves a bit of acknowledgement.

As for standing ovations, I go to lots of orchestral concerts and they simply never happen, no matter how good the orchestra is. This may be because there is no individual (except perhaps the conductor) for the audience to pin their appreciation on.

I'd welcome a standing ovation after an opera or a Mahler symphony. It would give my aching legs a stretch!


----------



## starry

Clockwork said:


> I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this. It could just be Canada's nonchalant patriotism that stands in stark comparison to Holland's, but I find that much undeserved praise to be kind of wonky.


I don't understand why people want to make music into some kind of ownership like that. The music belongs to the composer and only the composer - not to a country.

Most people's experience of classical music of course is not through concerts at all but through recordings, that is how this kind of music lives now.


----------



## Tapkaara

starry said:


> I don't understand why people want to make music into some kind of ownership like that. The music belongs to the composer and only the composer - not to a country.
> 
> Most people's experience of classical music of course is not through concerts at all but through recordings, that is how this kind of music lives now.


You are REALLY against nationalism, eh Starry?


----------



## starry

Tapkaara said:


> You are REALLY against nationalism, eh Starry?


I don't like it getting mixed up with art too much. I've seen people use music elsewhere for political purposes. And surely art is the creation of the individual, the individual is not just a cipher for some society or politics. I honestly thought that people who listened to classical music would think that way.


----------



## Tapkaara

starry said:


> I don't like it getting mixed up with art too much. I've seen people use music elsewhere for political purposes. And surely art is the creation of the individual, the individual is not just a cipher for some society or politics. I honestly thought that people who listened to classical music would think that way.


Nationalism, whether it is for good or for bad, is present in much classical music. And personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Elgar, for example, is a great example of a nationalist composer whose mucis brims with bountiful British pomp and circumstance, if I may be so bold. A lot of it is certainly music of the empire, true, but I also think the music stands well on its own two feet as a legitimate works of art. And as far as I know, Elgar's music has never harmed anyone.

Did you have a bad experience with a nationalist work at some point in your life, Starry? You seem particularly outspoken on this topic, so my interest is piqued...


----------



## Sid James

Edward Elgar said:


> If he's played a concerto, (however badly), he deserves a bit of acknowledgement.


Musicans are only people, they aren't machines. So they make mistakes. I think that if you want 'perfection' then listen to a good quality recording.

Brings back memories of when Pavorotti accidentally hit the wrong note on stage at La Scala in the 80's, if memory serves me correctly. After that, he gave in a bit, saying that the audience had a right to boo him, because they had paid to see a perfect performance. I disagree. I think that they were rude & arrogant. But that's the cut-throat world of the top opera houses for you. I think if that happened here in Sydney, people would be polite and ignore it. But maybe the Europeans are different?...


----------



## GraemeG

I attended a number of concerts of the Concertgebouw Orchestra at home in Amsterdam in 89-90 when I was living/backpacking around Europe. Without fail, there was a standing ovation at the end. It just seemed to be the Dutch way. The first time, I was a bit caught out, thinking 'it wasn't that good...', but after the second concert I twigged.



Andre said:


> Brings back memories of when Pavorotti accidentally hit the wrong note on stage at La Scala in the 80's, if memory serves me correctly. After that, he gave in a bit, saying that the audience had a right to boo him, because they had paid to see a perfect performance. I disagree. I think that they were rude & arrogant. But that's the cut-throat world of the top opera houses for you. I think if that happened here in Sydney, people would be polite and ignore it. But maybe the Europeans are different?...


Opera was invented before football - and the Europeans always took it very seriously. I heard a Trovatore at the Berlin Staatsoper in 1989. One of the tenors was terrible; you could sense the audience reaction even when he was singing, and he was roundly booed at the end - so much so that he only came on stage once, for all the subsequent curtain-calls he hid in the wings!
Of course, there's a great tradition of booing at Bayreuth. I don't have a problem with audiences being passionate - I seem to recall booing myself at Barrie Kosky's Nabucco here in Sydney 10-15 years ago. Of course, that's booing directors/designers/producers, which is not quite the same thing as the performers...
cheers,
Graeme


----------



## Tockley

emiellucifuge said:


> I dont find it that bad to be honest.
> 
> hey Andre, I really think there is a difference between the music of messiaen (which is still music) and some of Varese which is really just some random and strange noises.


It really is rather presumptuous for anyone to make the statement that something is or is not music since the definition of music is not an axiomatic attribute. Just because something is not your cup of tea doesn't mean it isn't music. There was a time when people would have said what Arnold Schoenberg was doing wasn't music either.


----------



## JoeGreen

GraemeG said:


> Opera was invented before football - and the Europeans always took it very seriously. I heard a Trovatore at the Berlin Staatsoper in 1989. One of the tenors was terrible; you could sense the audience reaction even when he was singing, and he was roundly booed at the end - so much so that he only came on stage once, for all the subsequent curtain-calls he hid in the wings!
> Of course, there's a great tradition of booing at Bayreuth. I don't have a problem with audiences being passionate - I seem to recall booing myself at Barrie Kosky's Nabucco here in Sydney 10-15 years ago. Of course, that's booing directors/designers/producers, which is not quite the same thing as the performers...
> cheers,
> Graeme


Yes, it's one of my goals before I die to attend a peformance at La Scala and sit in the _loggione_. I wonder if they're still masters at those witty one line critiques.


----------

