# Composers of the same level



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

This is another pointless and idiotic fun rating thread, the purpose of which is for you to mention when and Why do you put composers in the same box.

Let's start with some of my takes:

In the Symphonist's front Beethoven and Mahler reigneth over the others. 

In the Colourists deparment: Debussy, Messiaen and Boulez.

Elegance is brought to you by the likes of Mozart and Ravel.

Violence is best served by Stravisnky and Varese.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I think that doing this is actually harder than it looks at first glance. 

In terms of overall preference, Bach, Beethoven and Wagner share the first place to me - they are my personal gods of music. Talking about symphonists, I agree that Beethoven and Mahler are among the non plus ultra composers in the medium, but I also want to add Bruckner and maybe Brahms to the party. Orchestral color... hmm... perhaps Wagner, Mahler, and Strauss? I think that Tchaikovsky, Schubert and Mozart are the best melodists. Lully and Rameau I put in the same level as composers of baroque french operas. 

Maybe Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Ravel and Prokofiev as top composers of ballets? 

I could probably go on, but I ran out of ideas for now.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Xisten267 said:


> Maybe Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Ravel and Prokofiev as top composers of ballets?


That 4tet certainly includes a lot of really great ballet music!!


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Heck148 said:


> That 4tet certainly includes a lot of really great ballet music!!


Heh, almost *all* of the great ballet music. :lol:


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Richannes Wrahms said:


> This is another pointless and idiotic fun rating thread, the purpose of which is for you to mention when and Why do you put composers in the same box.
> 
> Let's start with some of my takes:
> 
> ...


If I understand you there is not a lot I am comfortable with in what you have said. I guess that is your intention - that we will all see things differently - but it is hard to see how you have chosen as you have. To take only those who you did mention I find myself wondering if you know (or like) Mozart or Stravinsky? I certainly don't understand why you put certain composers together in the same box.

The following is not a complete account but just a partial response to what you have written:

- How can we not recognise the symphonies of at least Mozart and Brahms? They are surely the equal of Beethoven and Mahler in the symphony stakes. And what about Sibelius and Haydn from that list?
- Elegance as a category? That sounds like a dustbin category. Why isn't Ravel recognised as a colourist? And, really, elegance is one of the least important aspects of Mozart's music. 
- Violence means Stravinsky? That is one of the last qualities I would associate with the composer of masterpieces like The Firebird, the Symphony of Psalms, the Mass, the violin concerto, Apollo ... etc. etc.

Probably I am just not getting what you are after here.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Enthusiast said:


> If I understand you there is not a lot I am comfortable with in what you have said. I guess that is your intention - that we will all see things differently - but it is hard to see how you have chosen as you have. To take only those who you did mention I find myself wondering if you know (or like) Mozart or Stravinsky? I certainly don't understand why you put certain composers together in the same box.
> 
> The following is not a complete account but just a partial response to what you have written:
> 
> ...


I think the symphony took a while to mature from the overture, to a piece by itelf, to a kind of epic narrative journey. It's the latter in which Beethoven and Mahler shine unparalleled. Outside of theirs, most middle movements are trivialities to rest the mind for example.

Elegance is defined by St. Google as:

1. the quality of being graceful and stylish in appearance or manner.

2. the quality of being pleasingly ingenious and simple; neatness.

It's pretty hard to compose elegantly, to be subtly clever and cleverly subtle.

Ravel's and Stravisnky's colours, though different in perspective, owe so much directly to Rimsky's and Debussy's.

Violence doesn't mean Stravinsky. Violence is best served by Stravisnky, i.e. that when Stravisnky does Violence he does it better.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

We'll have to agree to differ on symphonies. Also, I did know what elegance meant but didn't think it worked as a category.

But I am still unsure what you are getting at with this thread idea. Is it that we can choose any adjective or noun and name the composers we feel best exemplify that word?


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Paul Hindemith and Elias Howe.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Melancholy - Bruckner and Copland.

Momentum - Handel and Stravinsky.

Luminosity - Vivaldi and Durufle.

Intensity - Beethoven and Shostakovich.

Outdoorsy - Janacek and Ravel.

Mellowness - Haydn and Dvorak.

Passion - Tchaikovsky and Walton.

Intricacy - Carter and Partch.

Fragility - Schubert and Mahler.

Mysticism - Vaughan Williams and Hovhaness.

Energy - Prokofiev and Bernstein.

Elemental - Sibelius and Sculthorpe.

Nostalgia - Godowsky and Piazzolla.

Solidity - Bach and Hindemith.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Equal in Clara's heart - R. Schumann and Brahms


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## Krummhorn (Feb 18, 2007)

As a professional organist I rate composers like Bach, Buxtehude, Mendelssohn, Mozart, and others of the similar time period in music a equals. I don't think I could ever have _just one_ favorite.

Same is not true for present day composers ... okay, I am a bit biased here, but my overall favorite is organ music composed by Frederik Magle, also by Phil Lehenbauer, Kris Rizotto, and a few others.

I like perusing and playing organ scores of mostly unknown composers ... there are some wonderful hidden gems, imho, out there ripe for the picking.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

Krummhorn said:


> As a professional organist I rate composers like Bach, Buxtehude, Mendelssohn, Mozart, and others of the similar time period in music a equals. I don't think I could ever have _just one_ favorite.
> 
> Same is not true for present day composers ... okay, I am a bit biased here, but my overall favorite is organ music composed by Frederik Magle, also by Phil Lehenbauer, Kris Rizotto, and a few others.
> 
> I like perusing and playing organ scores of mostly unknown composers ... there are some wonderful hidden gems, imho, out there ripe for the picking.


Isn't Mozart's catalog of pieces for organ rather small in comparison to Bach's and Buxtehude's? Or am I missing something?

Btw, straying away from the thread, which organ works would you recommend from the romantic period? And have you heard Langgaard's compositions for organ?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

In Boulez more distinct works like _Le Marteau sans maître_, or the _Piano Sonata No. 2_ to my ears there is almost no color in the music.

I can't think of too many equals in the sense the OP uses the term. Perhaps I will say I think Ravel and Stravinsky were about equals in terms of orchestration and harmonic 'color'. Yet in some ways they were opposites. Ravel strikes me as among the most nostalgic and sentimental of composers, where Stravinsky is among the least nostalgic and sentimental of composers.


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

I greatly appreciate the tonal colors Rimsky-Korsakov paints my ears with.


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## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

Mozart and Beethoven were the same level at around 5' 4''.


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

These categories sum up some of my most cherished tastes in music:

*Expert craftsmanship: Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Taneyev, Reger, Schmidt, Mendelssohn

Spiritual and/or troubled symphonists: Bruckner, Mahler, Pettersson, Shostakovich

Cheerfulness blended with authentic tuneful inspiration: Tchaikovsky, Dvorák, Saint-Saëns, Glazunov

Unabashed lushness: Ravel, Korngold, Strauss, Marx, Hausegger, Bax, Szymanowski, Rachmaninov, Schreker

"Epicness" (in my very personal own terms): Langgaard, Tubin, Atterberg

Personal and intimate struggles: Janacek, Suk

Sharp-edged rhythms: Honegger, Bartók, Stravinsky, Holmboe

Wit, quirkiness: Hindemith, Nielsen, Arnold, Bacewicz, Martinu, Poulenc, Roussel, Milhaud

Sheer grandeur, splendour: Respighi, Bloch (Symphony in C sharp minor), Braga Santos, Hanson

Nature and wistfulness: Sibelius, Vaughan Williams

Exotica: Rimsky-Korsakov, Khachaturian, Schmitt

Intellectual pleasure: Carter, Schönberg*


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## kyjo (Jan 1, 2018)

MusicSybarite said:


> These categories sum up some of my most cherished tastes in music:
> 
> *Expert craftsmanship: Beethoven, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Taneyev, Reger, Schmidt, Mendelssohn
> 
> ...


A great list! I love the different descriptive categories you devised.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I dislike the approach of putting composers on the same level for the same reasons. How about the same level for different reasons?

Right now I'm feeling Bach and Sibelius. Bach for his technical realization, Sibelius for his unhindered expression.


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