# Barenboim the Bully??



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/arts/music/daniel-barenboim-conductor-bullying-berlin.html

Some accusations are coming out against the conductor. At least they aren't sexual in nature, right?!


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/arts/music/daniel-barenboim-conductor-bullying-berlin.html
> 
> Some accusations are coming out against the conductor. At least they aren't sexual in nature, right?!


I prefer "Barenboim the Boring" or "Barenboim the Dull" personally.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

… and?

I feel confident that you asked any orchestra that played with Toscanini, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Karajan, Bernstein, Solti, Bohm, etc etc, you would easily come up with far worse than these stories. Honestly, the life of an orchestra player does sound pretty stressful and conducive to getting some pretty serious tongue lashings even for the most impeccable players, but if you can't take the heat...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

What we have here is the remnants of an older style in a new age. But with professional musicians they ought to know that this sort of thing can be expected. We live in a 'victim' culture today.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I really like Barenboim as a conductor, but this is really disappointing.

I think there is the idea of the tortured genius, that people must suffer and be awful people to produce good art (or run a company, govern a nation, and so on). And we make excuses for all kinds of horrible behavior, for treating most everyone else involved in making good art poorly. 

The conductor is important, but you also need good oboists. The director of a film is important but you also need a script supervisor who is able to perform at their best. The CEO is important but if you don't have good people in IT you can't deal with changes.

Some people respond well to being pushing, to being constantly held to a high standard, and yelled at for every mistake. And others respond poorly to that but can flourish when warmly supported, or even if they're just treated respectfully. And likewise, some that do well when pushed will be lazy and complacent when supported respectfully.

People that don't respond well to bullying aren't necessarily poor performers. All that means is that they don't respond well to bullying. Of course ideally one will respond well to whatever sort of direction one gets, but also ideal those giving the direction won't be so far to one end that they alienate the people they're suppose to work with. Because while musically the orchestra should follow Barenboim's baton, in other aspects he's just another person in the organization.

Put more plainly, I am sure there are some orchestral players and other people involved in these orchestras that have made themselves better due to Barenboim's bullying. But there have also been great performers and effective staff members that his style has pushed away, making their lives far more difficult.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> I really like Barenboim as a conductor, but this is really disappointing.
> 
> I think there is the idea of the tortured genius, that people must suffer and be awful people to produce good art (or run a company, govern a nation, and so on). And we make excuses for all kinds of horrible behavior, for treating most everyone else involved in making good art poorly.
> 
> ...


Did you read the article? This was really really tame stuff. Beating the time out after the timpanist warned him before the performance that he may screw up? Making a musician repeat passages during rehearsals? I clicked the link expecting a lot worse than this.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Nevermind.
*************


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> … and?
> 
> I feel confident that you asked any orchestra that played with Toscanini, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Karajan, Bernstein, Solti, Bohm, etc etc, you would easily come up with far worse than these stories. Honestly, the life of an orchestra player does sound pretty stressful and conducive to getting some pretty serious tongue lashings even for the most impeccable players, but if you can't take the heat...


This was my reaction too. Seems like standard conductor behavior to me...


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2019)

If standard conductor behaviour is to treat players in such a way that they report feeling bullied, then standard conductors should expect to have their behaviour challenged. Argentine temperament and lack of intent cannot be offered as mitigation.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> If standard conductor behaviour is to treat players in such a way that they report feeling bullied, then standard conductors should expect to have their behaviour challenged. Argentine temperament and lack of intent cannot be offered as mitigation.


I'm sure you're right, but I've been in the field only a few years & I've seen plenty of occurrences like these. Perhaps words can't do justice to how egregious Barenboim's behavior truly was. Or perhaps these particular players are softies. Or maybe it's something else...


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Bonetan said:


> I'm sure you're right, but I've been in the field only a few years & I've seen plenty of occurrences like these. Perhaps words can't do justice to how egregious Barenboim's behavior truly was. Or perhaps these particular players are softies. Or maybe it's something else...


Bullies tend to pick their targets, knowing who will wither. They never target strong individuals.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

> Willi Hilgers, a former timpanist with the Staatskapelle, said in a series of Facebook messages that Mr. Barenboim repeatedly humiliated him in front of colleagues by singling out his playing.


Ahhmmm, you mean, by singling out his _terrible_ playing.

The very act of singling out his playing wouldn't be humiliating now would it...?

Sounds like a great conductor being forced to 'do this guy's dirty laundry' (if I can paraphrase a quote along the same type of story line from Liszt), and rightly being perturbed by it.

Add in the paper-thin skin of the modern youth ("Get off my lawn!") and here's your story.

[/endoldmanrant]


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

lextune said:


> Ahhmmm, you mean, by singling out his _terrible_ playing.
> 
> The very act of singling out his playing wouldn't be humiliating now would it...?
> 
> ...


Perhaps it's worth allowing Herr Hilgers to offer his side:
_"I went to Berlin because of Daniel Barenboim and stayed there because it's a fantastic orchestra. I left for the same reason, namely because of Daniel Barenboim. I gave up the fight and learned a lot. Just as Barenboim's quality as a musician is uncontested, I would have wished that my work as an artist would not be called into question either.
'Mr Barenboim does not see it that way. I don't need to defend my abilities, my current position with the Bavarian State Orchestra under Kirill Petrenko speaks for itself. Daniel Barenboim's response to the allegations reveals once again his usual approach: brushing everything off and blaming everyone else. It was important for me to talk about my personal experiences, but I now draw a line under the Barenboim case."_


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

deleted--I don't care enough about this to be arguing about it this much.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

His 'side' reveals nothing but more of the same entitled attitude. 

He 'would have wished'....that's the thing, buddy, no one cares about your artistic wishes. Your wishes are less important than Daniel Barenboim's. Nowadays that fact alone makes some people feel like the guy is being bullied. 

Also, your 'position' is that of a timpanist, between that, and what I now know of your time as Barenboim's timpanist, I'd say the only thing your position speaks to is that Maestro Petrenko asks less of his timpanist than Barenboim. 

....now maybe I am bullying him...?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Extract from: When the bully is the boss

The research thus far has found no evidence to support the axiom that tougher bosses get better results.

"We've been looking for it," said Rebecca Greenbaum, a professor in Rutgers University's school of management and labor relations, who formerly worked in the insurance industry. "We'd love to find out if there are good aspects of abusive leadership. There's been a lot of research. We just can't find any upside."


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

My argument is not that a 'tougher boss gets better results'.
I am saying that this man is a vastly inferior musician to Maestro Barenboim, and that when Maestro Barenboim is forced (by this man) to display that superiority, this man 'feels bullied'.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Does a tougher boss get better results? It depends on where the subordinates are on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, a classic theory in behavioral psychology.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2019)

lextune said:


> Ahhmmm, you mean, by singling out his _terrible_ playing.
> 
> The very act of singling out his playing wouldn't be humiliating now would it...?


It rather depends on the manner of that singling out, doesn't it?



lextune said:


> My argument is not that a 'tougher boss gets better results'.
> I am saying that this man is a vastly inferior musician to Maestro Barenboim, and that when Maestro Barenboim is forced (by this man) to display that superiority, this man 'feels bullied'.


Just because he is maestro does not justify treating his players as if they are his inferiors. If that is what has happened. Like all such stories in the media, the reader can only speculate - not even the two sides on offer give much to go on.



lextune said:


> He 'would have wished'....that's the thing, buddy, no one cares about your artistic wishes. Your wishes are less important than Daniel Barenboim's.


That "buddy" says it all.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I once watched a masterclass by Valery Gergiev. He said as a conductor you get the best result by re-enforcing and inviting a musician before an important solo-moment. This will get you the best result. Bullying, drilling and frightening musicians, won't give you the best result. 

This is also the case in business world. The Kaizen way of working gives better quality as opposed to the top-down frightening approach.

Still, playing in an orchestra will always stay a stressful job. Your results are clearly audible and you can ruin the result of the group on your own. Any solo trumpeter will sleep bad before a Mahler 5 concert and there are plenty similar examples.

Actually, conducting seems less stressful, because you are only indirect responsible and you will not be blamed for a wrong note. Also, you got the freedom to decide how you want the piece played, instead of having to obey to demands of others. And as a conductor you usually can just go on until your last breath. I think this also shows that it is not a very stressful job.

This example of Barenboim and these musicians sounds like a relationship gone sour. This usually ends with one of the two leaving In case of these musicians, I understand that some of the musicians left. In general, I think it is also healthy for any conductor to move periodically.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Singling out musicians to play in front of everyone has often been used by conductors to get rid of players they would like to replace. But it can be a bad strategy, as those in major positions of authority in numerous fields have been on the hot seat lately. It's perhaps better that Barenboim find a more direct way of replacing certain musicians, perhaps talking with higher-ups, if that's what he'd like, rather than trying to force them out in an embarrassing and indirect way. The anxiety that some of these musicians have apparently been experiencing is enough to give anyone a rash.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Becca said:


> Extract from: When the bully is the boss
> 
> The research thus far has found no evidence to support the axiom that tougher bosses get better results.
> 
> "We've been looking for it," said Rebecca Greenbaum, a professor in Rutgers University's school of management and labor relations, who formerly worked in the insurance industry. "We'd love to find out if there are good aspects of abusive leadership. There's been a lot of research. We just can't find any upside."


How much of the above applies to world of Classical Music? These people aren't making sausage on a production line. I am not a huge DB fan but the stuff cited seems like pretty small beer compared to stories from the days of yore.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Just because he is maestro does not justify treating his players as if they are his inferiors.


It does though. Because they are his inferiors. Quite literally. Both professionally, and artistically.

The timpanist's opinions/feelings/wishes(artistic or otherwise) mean nothing to the orchestra. Do your job. Quietly, and/or to Maestro Barenboim's liking, or go away. 
The world is full of timpanist. There is only one Barenboim.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Up until these (backdated) incidents I hadn't heard of any negative reports relating to Barenboim's man-management style. Maybe the musicians in question just lacked the sand to accept anything that they didn't want to hear - at the very least they have too thin skins and at worst persecution complexes. After reading the NYT article it certainly doesn't seem any worse than some of the criticism I used to get at work when I was younger, whether deserved or not - after initially cringing at the experience there was little else I could do but crack on and not let it eat at me, and in time I thought that was a useful life-lesson. 

The classical music world can be a pressure-cooker environment but I think a conductor has every right to tough-love his or her musicians to get the right results, as long as what is said and done doesn't escalate into out-and-out victimisation. I'm not convinced that the musicians in these cases have made the correct distinction between the two.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2019)

Small beer? The good old days (when I was bullied but everyone got on with it)?

There is wholly insufficient detail in the article to substantiate allegations. But whatever "world" one is employed to work, whether a sweat shop in Bangladesh or a classical orchestra, one is entitled to respectful treatment. I completely reject any suggestion that Barenboim's status should have any bearing on this question.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> That "buddy" says it all.


What do you think it says? You are making assumptions about me...?

...I feel bullied...? 

Or maybe you feel bullied now?

I hope not. But this is the point I suppose.

Years ago I heard a much smarter man than I quip that in a perfect egalitarian society, you would never actually know if you had been truly insulted or not. It got a good laugh, but think about it. Or don't. It's OK.

In any event, I don't really feel bullied. I feel OK today. I hope you have a good day too.



MacLeod said:


> There is wholly insufficient detail in the article to substantiate allegations.


On this we agree. :cheers:



MacLeod said:


> whatever "world" one is employed to work, whether a sweat shop in Bangladesh or a classical orchestra, one is entitled to respectful treatment.


You are assuming he wasn't respected. And I am assuming that because of their respective positions in the orchestra Barenboim was in his rights.

So we are both making assumptions I suppose. 
There was an old Benny Hill bit where he said 'when you assume, you make an *** out of U and ME'. I was young when I first saw it. I have never since, my whole life, been able to write or use the word without feeling like an ***.

Lastly I must admit that beyond assuming anything I am also outright saying that the position of timpanist; comparable to Barenboim's position, essentially demands next to no respect at all.

...in my opinion of course.

:devil:


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Again, I don't care enough about this to continue arguing. But I do feel like arguing about the arguing!



Becca said:


> Extract from: When the bully is the boss
> 
> The research thus far has found no evidence to support the axiom that tougher bosses get better results.


If you frame this argument as "Barenboim's approach isn't actually good management, and has been unproven to deliver good results," then let's consider the results. The results Barenboim got was to take the Staatskapelle Berlin from being widely considered second tier to one considered a top 10 orchestra today. In other words, he got the ideal results, so arguing that the problem with Barenboim is the ineffectiveness of his management style is pretty silly.



NLAdriaan said:


> I once watched a masterclass by Valery Gergiev. He said as a conductor you get the best result by re-enforcing and inviting a musician before an important solo-moment. This will get you the best result. Bullying, drilling and frightening musicians, won't give you the best result.


Again, if the question is the effectiveness of Barenboim's approach versus Gergiev, yeah, I'll take Barenboim's results over Gergiev's 10 times out of 10. Particularly when we talk orchestral quality--I don't always love Barenboim's conducting style from minute to minute, but the Staatskapelle Berlin is spectacular.

All of this is to say, argue against Barenboim if you want. But realize that if pick the the battleground of "results", that's actually a pretty poor battleground to select if you're arguing against Barenboim.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I am really surprised (but shouldn't be after 4 years on TC) at just how much posters pick and choose parts of posts to use even if it means distorting the original intent. Likewise just how totally dismissive they can be. An example...

Part of the NY Times article which I quoted:
"The research thus far has found no evidence to support the axiom that tougher bosses get better results."
And a response to it:
"so arguing that the problem with Barenboim is the ineffectiveness of his management style"

Nobody argued said that his style is 'ineffective", only that there is no proof that "tougher bosses get better results". Sure he did a lot to raise the quality of the orchestra BUT was that only because of his style? Would a different style have produced even better results?

Incidentally, the only reason that I posted that article is that it appeared this week, *coincidentally* with the articles about Barenboim, and was therefore worth posting.

As to the musicians, those in major orchestra have gotten there because of their talents and hard work (and yes, some luck). Any musician who manages to win a place at (e.g.) the Bavarian orchestra, is obviously a very good musician so talking about "vastly inferior", "demands next to no respect at all" are just plain silly. Barenboim is good, even very good, there is no argument about that, but don't go ranking him with every other orchestra musician. I have little doubt that, given the interest and opportunity, there are some of those orchestra musicians could equal or exceed what Barenboim can do. The fact that they haven't doesn't mean that they can't, therefore give them respect, they have earned it and, as professionals, deserve it.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Becca said:


> I am really surprised (but shouldn't be after 4 years on TC) at just how much posters pick and choose parts of posts to use even if it means distorting the original intent. Likewise just how totally dismissive they can be. An example...
> 
> Part of the NY Times article which I quoted:
> "The research thus far has found no evidence to support the axiom that tougher bosses get better results."
> ...


You seem to think I and Lextune are the same person. I have not denigrated this player in any way; all I've said is that the Times article reporting on the allegations don't seem to amount to much. If there's more out there that the Times isn't reporting, I'm open to joining the lynch mob, but I'd need to see a lot more.

I highly doubt that a different management style would achieve better results--how much better could the results be? Again, he took a second (honestly, maybe even a third) tier orchestra and got them in the top 10. And honestly, I think Berlin Staatskapelle is the equal of the top 5, but people aren't willing to acknowledge multiple Berlin bands in the top 5.

You're quite right that this timpanist must be very good to be playing in the Bavarian Staatsoper. Still, there's a difference between Petrenko inheriting a top 10 orchestra versus Barenboim making a third tier group into a top 10 orchestra, and I certainly don't believe one *has* to be a jerk to get great results. But you also can't argue that Barenboim has not gotten great results.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> You seem to think I and Lextune are the same person.


I am quite aware of that and was addressing two issues from two posters regarding the same general topic.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Becca said:


> I am quite aware of that and was addressing two issues from two posters regarding the same general topic.


Ok. I am really surprised (but shouldn't be after 4 years on TC) at just how much posters conflate two different interlocutors for the purpose of trying to undercut one person's point by addressing another person's. Seems pretty dismissive to me....


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

I think lumping a lot of Barenboim's behaviour as a conductor together as some sort of homogeneous 'management style' oversimplifies things. There are lots of different behaviours that come together to constitute one's 'management style'. With Barenboim it's likely that, in most respects, his style is superb. But it's also possible that _particular _aspects of his management style (like, if these allegations are correct, a possible tendency to bully) are less than ideal with respect to achieving orchestral success - it may be that the other positive aspects of his style make up for this.

But of course, this is speculation - it's very hard to actually figure out how successful Barenboim would be if he altered his style in minor ways. But, consequently, it's also hard to claim that his possible tendency to 'bully' was essential to his success (although I doubt those advocating this position consider the described behaviour as 'bullying'). We simply don't know enough to say what the outcome would be either way!

Anywho, on a separate note, it's worth stressing that bullying comes in many shapes and forms, and even if the described behaviours in the article seem comparatively tame, context matters! Is this part of sustained series of slights? Do his peers share Barenboim's disdain and contribute? Does Barenboim call him a **** if he sees him walking his dog? Importantly, does he call his (maybe imaginary) dog a ****? And so on and so forth. All these possibilities matter, and telling a grown adult to grow a thicker skin without knowing the context, as if his complaints are automatically evidence of some widespread victim culture, is lazy.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

JoeSaunders said:


> But of course, this is speculation - it's very hard to actually figure out how successful Barenboim would be if he altered his style in minor ways. But, consequently, it's also hard to claim that his possible tendency to 'bully' was essential to his success (although I doubt those advocating this position consider the described behaviour as 'bullying').


I'm not saying that being a jerk is "essential" to his success. I'm saying those like Becca and NLAdriaan (note how I'm able to see that these are two different people) framing the problem with being a jerk as one of effectiveness are making an argument that directly refutes their own case against Barenboim. His success with the orchestra demonstrates that whatever the problem is, it's not the lack of success.


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2019)

lextune said:


> What do you think it says? You are making assumptions about me...?


No, not about you, but about what you're saying. It's the sign of someone saying, "Listen, I'm telling you straight, something that you don't want to hear."



lextune said:


> You are assuming he wasn't respected.


I'm not assuming anything of the sort. It's clear from the report that he feels he wasn't respected.



> Willi Hilgers, a former timpanist with the Staatskapelle, said in a series of Facebook messages that Mr. Barenboim repeatedly humiliated him in front of colleagues by singling out his playing. As a result, he said, he had suffered "high blood pressure, depression, the feeling that you can no longer play your instrument, sleepless nights,


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

His "feelings" do not convince me that he was disrespected. One must go further and assume that his feelings were in the right to agree with his assessment. 

But, as was already said, there really isn't enough on other side to say, so the whole thing is just an intellectual exercise.


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## OperaChic (Aug 26, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/26/arts/music/daniel-barenboim-conductor-bullying-berlin.html
> 
> Some accusations are coming out against the conductor. At least they aren't sexual in nature, right?!


Seems like much to do about nothing and something that will quickly fade and be forgotten. Interestingly, I remember 4 or 5 years ago when Barenboim was presenting Der Ring at the Proms and and after the completion of an act of one of the operas it was noted in some reviews how he had given his concert master a bit of a tongue lashing. But it was only mentioned as an anecdote to what was widely considered an otherwise excellent and successful set of performances. No outcry in the slightest about it.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

The article (also quoted by the NYT) which started the debate has more details and is probably worth reading:

https://van-us.atavist.com/the-titans-shadow


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

Barenboim is one of the titans of 20th century music. He has earned every consideration, and the benefit of every doubt. He is far above and beyond these meager, and honestly pathetic accusations from a thin-skinned timpanists who apparently wants to read us his resume.

Obviously I am a big Barenboim lover, but honestly, it is also the victim culture, and the 'gotcha' attitude of our social media driven world that is just so sad and awful. 

Everyone looking to see who might say, or do something, that someone might find "insulting" Next thing you know the media is 'insulting' to the right people and we are all halfway down the slippery slope of totalitarianism, if we aren't already there.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

interestedin said:


> The article (also quoted by the NYT) which started the debate has more details and is probably worth reading:
> 
> https://van-us.atavist.com/the-titans-shadow


Sounds like he can be a difficult man to work for. Many exceptional artists are.


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## interestedin (Jan 10, 2016)

It's certainly not just ONE thin-skinned musician...

Is there a level of exceptionality that, once you reach it, gives you the right to physically attack ("shaken members of his staff in anger") those working with and for you?


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## Guest (Mar 1, 2019)

lextune said:


> Barenboim is one of the titans of 20th century music. He has earned every consideration, and the benefit of every doubt. He is far above and beyond these meager, and honestly pathetic accusations from a thin-skinned timpanists who apparently wants to read us his resume.
> 
> Obviously I am a big Barenboim lover, but honestly, it is also the victim culture, and the 'gotcha' attitude of our social media driven world that is just so sad and awful.
> 
> Everyone looking to see who might say, or do something, that someone might find "insulting" Next thing you know the media is 'insulting' to the right people and we are all halfway down the slippery slope of totalitarianism, if we aren't already there.


Just an intellectual exercise? You're happy to keep going at it though, with your interpretation.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

howlingfantods said:


> Did you read the article? This was really really tame stuff.


Ha, no. If I had I probably would have lamented what a weak bit the NYT article is. My mistake; I should have expected it to be the fluff piece that it is.

I was thinking more of this piece:



interestedin said:


> The article (also quoted by the NYT) which started the debate has more details and is probably worth reading:
> 
> https://van-us.atavist.com/the-titans-shadow


A few quotes:



> In musical circles, Barenboim's temper is legendary. He has thrown fits because a violist rolled his eyes, because a singer bowed in the wrong place, because a favored principal player was on vacation. He once berated a musician who lacked concentration because someone in their immediate family had died. He has insulted a doctor who said that a performer with a stomach flu was too sick to play. On at least two occasions, he has allegedly grabbed and shaken members of his staff in anger.
> 
> ...
> 
> To the people who work for Barenboim in a non-musical capacity, the idea that the life of a talented person is worth more than someone "mediocre" resonates. "I'm not a professional musician, I don't play in his orchestra, and that alone is a reason for him to consider me a second-class person," said a current employee of the Staatsoper. "He gives me the feeling that I'm an idiot. He treats the musicians he values very differently."





lextune said:


> Barenboim is one of the titans of 20th century music. He has earned every consideration, and the benefit of every doubt. He is far above and beyond these meager, and honestly pathetic accusations from a thin-skinned timpanists who apparently wants to read us his resume.
> 
> Obviously I am a big Barenboim lover, but honestly, it is also the victim culture, and the 'gotcha' attitude of our social media driven world that is just so sad and awful.
> 
> Everyone looking to see who might say, or do something, that someone might find "insulting" Next thing you know the media is 'insulting' to the right people and we are all halfway down the slippery slope of totalitarianism, if we aren't already there.


It's totalitarianism to not let giant supermen bully everyone around them? What kind of backwards nonsense is that?

Calling Barenboim "one of the titans of 20th century music" seems to be going too far, but I would certainly place him at the first rank of living conductors. I convinced myself to go to Germany for the first time because I wanted to hear him conduct in Berlin (and because he doesn't come to the USA much anymore (though he did come to Berkeley in the fall; I was there with bells on (metaphorically))). Look at my posting history and superlatives I've written about his recordings. I'm not coming at this having anything but respect for him as a musician.

But I don't think that really should not matter, and being a great musician should not excuse a person for acting out. You talk of victim culture but I'm much more concerned about hero culture. The great and powerful are allowed to be inhuman, to be cruel to the people they're supposed to be collaborating with. Barenboim is by no means the worst example of this, but he is one. The world goes on accepting abusing, forgiving these powerful people that are involved in creating great art and/or bringing in money. Yes, there's been some prominent examples of outrage against abusers, but they rarely face real consequences and more often than not, after the furor dies down they are once again put back into positions of power.


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## Forsooth (Apr 17, 2018)

Becca said:


> ...I have little doubt that, given the interest and opportunity, there are some of those orchestra musicians could equal or exceed what Barenboim can do. The fact that they haven't doesn't mean that they can't, therefore give them respect, they have earned it and, as professionals, deserve it.


I would doubt very much that bit about "equal or exceed." Seems like a nice thought -- but, yeah, I would seriously doubt that.



lextune said:


> Barenboim is one of the titans of 20th century music. He has earned every consideration, and the benefit of every doubt. He is far above and beyond these meager, and honestly pathetic accusations from a thin-skinned timpanists who apparently wants to read us his resume.
> 
> Obviously I am a big Barenboim lover, but honestly, it is also the victim culture, and the 'gotcha' attitude of our social media driven world that is just so sad and awful.
> 
> Everyone looking to see who might say, or do something, that someone might find "insulting" Next thing you know the media is 'insulting' to the right people and we are all halfway down the slippery slope of totalitarianism, if we aren't already there.


Yep, I agree.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

mountmccabe said:


> Ha, no. If I had I probably would have lamented what a weak bit the NYT article is. My mistake; I should have expected it to be the fluff piece that it is.
> 
> I was thinking more of this piece:


Yeah, that's a little stronger. It's still not exactly criminal or, I suspect, much different than other conductors of Barenboim's generation, but Barenboim definitely comes off as overbearing--the grabbing and shaking people stuff crosses the line and is totally unprofessional.

I suppose this is newsworthy, although I don't know that it's international news-level newsworthy. It would help if there was a hook to the story--so now we know that is likely an overbearing taskmaster. So what then? It's certainly not criminal, it's unlikely that the Staatsoper Berlin will change his behavior or his directorship. Is anyone going to boycott his performances or recordings? I mean, we sit around and debate the relative merits of favorite recordings made by literal Nazis so that seems unlikely to me.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Sorry I don't buy it. Can you say Toscanini? Can you say Solti? And so many others?

In his own words: “Bullying and humiliating someone,” he wrote, “implies the intention of wanting to cause someone hurt, of taking pleasure in it, even. This is not in my character.”

I believe his every word. He is a talented musician and yes, sometimes gets out of line but he is no different than any others. He has his way and not always acceptable to everyone. But even when he is not being his kindest, it is never with the intention of humiliating or bullying someone. That is cruel and he is not!
If one cannot stand his style let him stop sucking his thumbs and leave instead of complaining. They all know going in what to expect. It's not going to be a surprise.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Just an intellectual exercise? You're happy to keep going at it though, with your interpretation.


Indeed I am. I love a good intellectual exercise/discourse.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

mountmccabe said:


> It's totalitarianism to not let giant supermen bully everyone around them? What kind of backwards nonsense is that?


Crazy backwards nonsense. Fortunately no one said anything like that at all. Least of all me.
My paragraph on the slippery slope toward totalitarianism is self contained, and easily understood. It is only related to Barenboim insofar as people wanting his unpopular/insulting speech stopped/silenced. It is much more about the timpanist in question and his victimhood.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2019)

lextune said:


> Indeed I am. I love a good intellectual exercise/discourse.


This is neither a good, nor intellectual discourse.

All I said to begin with (#9) is that _if _DB has behaved as described, he should expect to be challenged. I have in no way accepted the allegations as reported, and TC is hardly the most well-informed place to consider the specifics of the case anyway - the same as the rest of social media (and the media generally, which is more often in search of a story than the truth).

To take sides on the flimsiest of evidence is hardly demonstrating an intellectual approach. To take sides on no evidence at all, merely reputation, is unacceptable as argument. What kind of allegation would be sufficient to topple the Great Man, I wonder?


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

howlingfantods said:


> The results Barenboim got was to take the Staatskapelle Berlin from being widely considered second tier to one considered a top 10 orchestra today. In other words, he got the ideal results, so arguing that the problem with Barenboim is the ineffectiveness of his management style is pretty silly.
> 
> Again, if the question is the effectiveness of Barenboim's approach versus Gergiev, yeah, I'll take Barenboim's results over Gergiev's 10 times out of 10. Particularly when we talk orchestral quality--I don't always love Barenboim's conducting style from minute to minute, but the Staatskapelle Berlin is spectacular.


If Barenboim is your supposed hero, go ahead. If you prefer Barenboim over Gergiev, go ahead too. Of course I am interested to know on which experiences you base your preferences. Do you visit the Staatskapelle regularly or is your opinion based on recordings? You state that Staatskapelle Berlin is tier 1 now and came from nowhere. For now, I couldn't support those statements at all, but maybe I missed something.

You simplify my argument as to simply compare two conductors and draw your conclusion that the one you prefer (Barenboim), would be allowed to get where he is now, no matter what. Or maybe even to argue that a bullying style would give you better results? I just offer a different view from a conductor who apparently has a totally different style. And whatever you think about Gergiev's music, I know from many concerts and recordings, that he accomplished stunning results. I also think that both are at least in the same league.

I think there are many methods by which a conductor can get his results. there were/are plenty of bullies, sure. there are plenty of other approaches too. Generally, I think that the bullies and/or #metoo-ers are closer to extinction. The new generation seems to be of a different kind, more like Gergiev's example.

I noticed that Barenboim is with the Staatskapelle Berlin close to 30 years! I think that such tenures are in itself often problematic, especially if the Chief has a somewhat authoritarian style. A few blocks away from the Staatskapelle B, with the undoubted tier 1 BPO, such a long relationship came to a sour end, bad for both parties. Interesting enough, in St Petersburg, Gergiev is already Chief for more than 30 years. And it could be his 'management style', but I don't hear anything like the Berlin stories from there.

And to make it less personal, you can just read Abbado instead of Gergiev, if it concerns 'management' style. And Abbado, in my humble opinion, was acting in the champions league of conductors, in which league I honestly do not picture Barenboim.


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## JoeSaunders (Jan 29, 2015)

To all those trotting out the "all the other greats were abusive arseholes, so they can't complain" argument, some things:

1) Not all greats were arseholes (though many were, granted - though I believe more bosses overall were unpleasant back then).

2) Even fewer conductors today are like that, so the point about one's career expectations is surely quite different.

3) Even if you think knowing what to expect invalidates the complaints from people like this Timpanist, it still doesn't justify the behaviour of said abusive arseholes.

4) Can we not agree that the fact conductors, in the past, had a reputation for being arseholes was a _bad _thing? Like holy plop, this behaviour might only be a by-product of artistic fame gone to their heads, and not evidence of some vital artistic spark of life. It might not be that important a thing to tolerate!

5) Could we also not imagine why instead of simply leaving the orchestra when things turn south, one might actually want to _reform _the management style? If all one's orchestral peers agree that this guy is an abusive knob and find it very unpleasant playing under him, surely its may be worth trying to change things? Circumstances will of course dictate how difficult this will be, and sometimes it may well be too hard to co-ordinate. (Note: I realise the timpanist ultimately did leave, but I still think it's a good question to ask of any unfavourable state of affairs)

6) Why is our _default _response to these sort of happenings, given sufficient evidence, not "Wow, this seems awful, can we try and stop this?" but usually a defeatist "He knew what he was going in for so I'm not surprised"? Note that you can consistently believe _both _sentiments, yet it's usually the latter thought which prevails in the discourse. I think it's unwise to neglect emphasising the former thought: it seems to be one which actually stands a chance of _making things better for people_ if it catches on.

7) Why do we allow _artists _to get away with so much to begin with? I get that it may be useful to a minor degree allowing certain social norms to not apply to those in creative vocations, but why does this seem to include societal norms concerning abuse, insulting, and general knobheadedness? I can't help but believe the idea of the tortured volatile artist is partly responsible, and is something of myth that many creative sorts take advantage of to get their own way. This seems bad, and unnecessary for the creation of great art.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> All I said to begin with (#9) is that _if _DB has behaved as described, he should expect to be challenged. I have in no way accepted the allegations as reported, and TC is hardly the most well-informed place to consider the specifics of the case anyway - the same as the rest of social media (and the media generally, which is more often in search of a story than the truth).


I have already agreed that there is not enough evidence to substantiate anything.
...that's what makes it merely an intellectual exercise. The _if_...



MacLeod said:


> This is neither a good, nor intellectual discourse.


Says you. I have been broaching subjects such as the pros and cons of an egalitarian society, the silencing of "unpopular" and/or "insulting" speech in the early days of a burgeoning totalitarian state. The role that the victim-culture plays in the same state... I am having a grand old time. I am sorry if you don't feel the same way.

...although that does bring up an interesting point...You asked me once already why I was posting, I answered, and your reply was to say tthat that's not what's happening.
Surely you can see the irony in that, given the topic(s) at hand. 
One could argue that you are trying to bullying me into silence. :devil:


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2019)

lextune said:


> Says you. I have been broaching subjects such as the pros and cons of an egalitarian society, the silencing of "unpopular" and/or "insulting" speech in the early days of a burgeoning totalitarian state. The role that the victim-culture plays in the same state... I am having a grand old time. I am sorry if you don't feel the same way.


You are indeed, as is often the case when people wish to wax lyrical and wander away from the central point.

Mind you, looking back at the OP, there's not much to go on. We can almost assert whatever we wish as the main point of the OP, and then what would constitute off-topic posting.

What you haven't done is actually respond to the points I've made - you just prefer to make points about me.



lextune said:


> You asked me once already why I was posting,


And then points not about me. You have me confused with someone else. I posted no such question, and I can't see anything I posted that might be interpreted as such.



lextune said:


> One could argue that you are trying to bullying me into silence. :devil:


I find your opinion in these posts reprehensible and indefensible, given that both of us have agreed that there is insufficient evidence to make any kind of judgement on the matter:



> The timpanist's opinions/feelings/wishes(artistic or otherwise) mean nothing to the orchestra. Do your job. Quietly, and/or to Maestro Barenboim's liking, or go away.
> The world is full of timpanist. There is only one Barenboim.





> Barenboim is one of the titans of 20th century music. He has earned every consideration, and the benefit of every doubt. He is far above and beyond these meager, and honestly pathetic accusations from a thin-skinned timpanists who apparently wants to read us his resume.
> 
> Obviously I am a big Barenboim lover, but honestly, it is also the victim culture, and the 'gotcha' attitude of our social media driven world that is just so sad and awful.


If you're feeling bullied into silence, that is, according to your view, merely a pose as a victim. However, if you are feeling bullied, I'm sorry.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> If you're feeling bullied into silence, that is, according to your view, merely a pose as a victim. However, if you are feeling bullied, I'm sorry.


Ha! Exactly. It explicitly was me posing as a victim. I don't feel bullied. I don't think I could ever feel bullied, or insulted honestly. I learned long ago that words can't hurt me, and that free speech means reprehensible people will get to say reprehensible things. Life is too short, and free speech too precious to let such things affect my daily life/mood.

...It is all part of the aforementioned intellectual exercise. :cheers:


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2019)

lextune said:


> Ha! Exactly. It explicitly was me posing as a victim. I don't feel bullied. I don't think I could ever feel bullied, or insulted honestly. I learned long ago that words can't hurt me, and that free speech means reprehensible people will get to say reprehensible things. Life is too short, and free speech too precious to let such things affect my daily life/mood.
> 
> ...It is all part of the aforementioned intellectual exercise. :cheers:


"Free speech"? Don't get me started on that.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

JoeSaunders said:


> To all those trotting out the "all the other greats were abusive arseholes, so they can't complain" argument, some things:
> 
> 1) Not all greats were arseholes (though many were, granted - though I believe more bosses overall were unpleasant back then).
> 
> ...


Speaking for myself, my argument is not to argue that others are like this so that's just fine behavior; it's to say that this is a dog bites man story. I may not be in favor of dogs biting men, but it's also not an example of significant journalism.

Barenboim, already widely considered an *** because of Jacqueline Du Pre, is also an *** to his employees? Well, that sucks for his employees. If I were applying for symphony orchestra jobs, that would be relevant to me. If I were deciding whether to hire Barenboim to run my symphony orchestra, that may be relevant to me.

But what relevance does it have to me, the listener and purchaser of classical music? It seems to offer some internet posters the ability to moralize on internet forums but what else? We sit around and debate our favorite recordings including many made by literal Nazis and other conductors who were at least as overbearing to their musicians, so we seem to have completely rejected the idea that the artist's behavior or personality has any relevance to our engagement with them.

So my argument is essentially that this may be a story that has some relevance to musicians considering applying for jobs at symphony orchestras, or are in a position to hire or fire Barenboim. But why would anyone else care?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

If a conductor’s autocratic behavior is all on behalf of the music, he’ll probably be OK and able to get his way in most things without a great deal of resistance because others will pick up on that intent and rise to the challenge. But if his behavior gets nasty and personal without that in mind, there’s going to be problems... and it looks like there have been problems from a growing group of individuals, something for him to think about regardless of his importance as a conductor.

There can be a thin line between art and personality and there’s no conductor who cannot have his reputation challenged or damaged in today's world where authority or the manipulation of others is often being challenged. 

In the meantime, it will be interesting to see how he rides out the storm that’s made it into the New York Times. How did it get into the New York Times? Because there have been enough complaints from individuals who could have perhaps been handled in another more diplomatic way. Singling out a musician in front of his or her colleagues to play in front of everyone isn’t exactly a vote of confidence and can place a musician under tremendous stress if it’s done repeatedly. If he’s unhappy with somebody’s playing, he could deal with that more diplomatically in private or perhaps help the musician improve his performance or give the musician an out to leave if there are major artistic differences. 

Right or wrong, society is watching these kinds of behaviors by prominent authority figures and I do not believe that should be taken lightly, no matter how self-important the authority figure or conductor imagines himself to be... I wouldn’t care to be in an orchestra conducted by him. He can sometimes be too grim and serious on the podium. No great conductor is exactly like anyone else, but he rarely smiles or appears relaxed while conducting compared to somebody like Abbado, Bernstein, Dudamel, or many others... I rarely find it uplifting to watch or hear him, but I wouldn’t want his career to be damaged. When Jacqueline du Pre died those many years ago, I believe it changed him—the injustice of it all—because they appeared to be soulmates and were so incredible when they played together. He watched her go from the height of supreme artistic success to the humiliation of MS and her physical deterioration when so many others less talented than her never had to go through that. I believe it could change how somebody looks at humanity and the whole idea of the expectations related to his measurement of talent.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

howlingfantods said:


> Barenboim, already widely considered an *** because of Jacqueline Du Pre


Really? They got married, they were music's golden couple for a while, then she got terribly ill. He took care of her until she died, tragically young.

And while she was dying he did "go on" with his life. Meeting another woman, having children, and when Jacqueline died, those two got married.

Those are the facts we all know. Everything else seems to me, to be about their marriage.

A marriage is a novel only two people have read. We don't/can't/and I wouldn't want to, know, what the two of them decided as husband and wife to do during the years she spent dying. Maybe she wanted him to be happy with someone else...?

I can certainly see how some might disapprove, on all sorts of moral or religious grounds, but I think it is going too far to say he is widely considered an *** because of it.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

The funny thing is that I love Barenboims Wagner recordings as coincidental I also want to be sure I don't listen to a Nazi.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> It's totalitarianism to not let giant supermen bully everyone around them? What kind of backwards nonsense is that?
> 
> ...being a great musician should not excuse a person for acting out. *You talk of victim culture but I'm much more concerned about hero culture.* The great and powerful are allowed to be inhuman, to be cruel to the people they're supposed to be collaborating with. Barenboim is by no means the worst example of this, but he is one. The world goes on accepting abusing, forgiving these powerful people that are involved in creating great art and/or bringing in money. Yes, there's been some prominent examples of outrage against abusers, but they rarely face real consequences and more often than not, after the furor dies down they are once again put back into positions of power.


Just so. "Victim culture" and "identity politics" are pseudo-intellectual concepts created by defenders and beneficiaries of the status quo and the powers that be to discredit anyone who challenges the social structure that perpetuates their abuses and their dominance.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

lextune said:


> A marriage is a novel only two people have read.


That is well and truly said.

(Though sometimes it seems like they read different books.)


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

In days gone by... and still at it.


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## sharkeysnight (Oct 19, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> In his own words: "Bullying and humiliating someone," he wrote, "implies the intention of wanting to cause someone hurt, of taking pleasure in it, even. This is not in my character."
> 
> I believe his every word. He is a talented musician and yes, sometimes gets out of line but he is no different than any others. He has his way and not always acceptable to everyone. But even when he is not being his kindest, it is never with the intention of humiliating or bullying someone. That is cruel and he is not!


Toxic people don't usually admit to or even recognize their own toxic attitudes. "I didn't intend to" is an extremely typical line from someone who tends to be abusive - of course he didn't mean it, why would he? He just wants them to be their best, and if that means screaming, yelling, physically shaking people, putting the entire orchestra on edge, and making people deeply uncomfortable, then it all, as far as he is concerned, a means to an end. It's like yelling at and shaking your child because they didn't do their math homework right. Some children will respond to this by doing their math homework right, and some children will respond by crumpling. The children who respond by doing their math homework right don't justify the action.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

sharkeysnight said:


> It's like yelling at and shaking your child because they didn't do their math homework right. Some children will respond to this by doing their math homework right, and some children will respond by crumpling. The children who respond by doing their math homework right don't justify the action.


Agreed. And that bullying behavior is seldom a positive influence on the child.
But these musicians are not children, they're adults who have witnessed this type of behavior before. They are not walking in blind. They've heard the rumors and they've had the opportunity to make their decisions based on whether this is helpful teaching or destructive.
Each of us is responsible for making our own choices.

I don't happen to think that the example of Barenboim is even really the right one. Toxic? Barenboim? Maybe Toscanini is closer to the bullyman.
I also think that Barenboim knows exactly what he is doing, knows he can be unpleasant, but surely doesn't consider himself cruel. Tosci on the other hand knew that he was being cruel but didn't care. That's a big difference.
I just think this thing is being overblown in his case. Some conductors' attitudes are so bad that they are legend. 
And then there is Barenboim.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I remember as a kid reading highly romanticised biographies of composers that seemed to assume that because someone wrote great music they were also a great person. Of course, a proper trawl though historical facts shows us that many musicians who produced great music were also highly flawed characters. So why shouldn't it be the same with their interpreters? One is not saying that to excuse it, although Barenboim appears to have been somewhat the victim of a sort of #MeToo! for musicians campaign. But for goodness sake, we live in a real world and know that musicians who get to such high positions don't do so just by being nice fellas.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

I thought twice before linking this interesting Norman Lebrecht article to this bloody thread. Here it is:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/the-fall-of-barenboim-the-shrewdest-political-conductor-we-have-ever-seen-is-mired-in-accusations-of-bullying/


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

Pity, I think he's a great pianist...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

NLAdriaan said:


> I thought twice before linking this interesting Norman Lebrecht article to this bloody thread. Here it is:
> 
> https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/03/the-fall-of-barenboim-the-shrewdest-political-conductor-we-have-ever-seen-is-mired-in-accusations-of-bullying/


I read it too. I don't think anyone takes Mr Lebrecht too seriously these days


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Pity, I think he's a great pianist...


He was a very fine pianist. Unfortunately age has caught up with his technique. His recording of the Brahms concerto 2 was embarrassing.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/proms/10198336/Proms-2013-Wagner-Die-Walkure-review.html

Read the last paragraph, and note the writer is quick to jump to a conclusion....

I was there and saw it. I believe the 'alternate' leader appeared for Seigfried but the original was back for Gotterdamerung which was his final performance after 3 decades with the band and they very publicly shook hands etc at the end.

However I would add that having just retired after 33 years managing staff at one company; along the way I am sure there are some who feel I dismissed them unfairly and a few who heard my voice raised. Also along the way I had to deal with people who occasionally behaved in ways that 'let themselves down' with entirely untypical behaviour. If you believe the send off I received I can with confidence point you to many, many people who would agree that I was in no way what one could call a bully. Taken selectively a few incidents could be presented in a way which does not reflect the truth. I am mindful that those dismissals and my occasional 'tantrum' never happened in the public eye which casts a jaundiced eye and seeks to pigeon hole certain behaviours.

Based on the original article I say case not proven. Hopefully as a society we have learnt and the Orchestra's involved are doing a proper investigation and satisfying themselves as to how widespread this behaviour is. They have a duty of care but the rest of us should be careful not to be just like witnesses slowing down for a look, hoping its a Car Crash and not just a temporary breakdown.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes (Feb 24, 2019)

DavidA said:


> He was a very fine pianist. Unfortunately age has caught up with his technique. His recording of the Brahms concerto 2 was embarrassing.


Really? Why do you think so? I have his Mozart sonatas recorded in 2012 and they're great!


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