# Willem Mengelberg recordings.................



## Itullian

From the little I've heard from this conductor he seems like a conductor I would enjoy.

Any recommendations for his best available recordings?
Thanks :tiphat:


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## wkasimer

Itullian said:


> Any recommendations for his best available recordings?


Mahler 4
Any and all of his Beethoven or Brahms, particularly the Brahms violin concerto with Krebbers.

I know that many people love it, but I'd steer clear of his Bach St. Matthew - his conducting isn't enough to overcome bad soloists.


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## joen_cph

They're all interesting ...


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## Heck148

His NYPO recording of "Ein Heldeleben" is really good...from 1928, IIRC.


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## MrMeatScience

The Mahler 4 really cannot be missed, it's astounding.


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## Larkenfield

Worth hearing just for his Mahler 4th! (BUT, by bowing to the meddlesome wishes of Alma Mahler years after her husband's death, he was the conductor who screwed up the order of the middle two movements of the Mahler 6th against the final published account by Mahler himself. He caved in to her and on that note, he was a _very_ bad boy.)


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## Merl

Mengelberg's Beethoven and Brahms were certainly 'interesting' but sound quality is not great on many of his recordings. His Concertgebouw Beethoven cycle sounds like it was recorded in a coffin whilst someone was being buried. Even the Pristine remasters don't sound great (but they're a definite improvement). Shame.


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## CnC Bartok

Mengelberg also did the premiere of the Bartok Violin Concerto, a concert recorded live and available on Decca in a box that includes his Beethoven cycle (indeed, even worse sound quality than the Weingartner recordings that are on average a few years earlier). Zoltan Szekely as soloist (no brainer on that!) recorded 1939.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Pay no attention to the prior comment on Mengelberg’s St Matthew Passion. This is his most famous recording and justly so. When I heard it I found it to be a revelation, the most engaging, soulful St Matt I’ve heard.

Next to this his greatest achievements include the 1928 NYPO Strauss Ein Heldenleben and Mahler 4th. Also recommend his Brahms 1st.


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## Bill H.

I have enjoyed parts of his Beethoven cycle with the Concertgebouw, specifically the 1940 set that was recorded live, just before the Germans swept over the country. The sound isn't bad for the time--they used transcription disks, of course, but the frequency response is there, so a decent remaster will provide a good basis for listening. But THERE ARE quirks, and sometimes the execution isn't the greatest (horns cracking notes etc.). The final bars of the Ninth Symphony is a prime example of his "fluidity" with tempos. 

The 1928 NY Phil performance of Ein Heldenleben as mentioned before is quite famous, and is one of my favorites of that piece.


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Pay no attention to the prior comment on Mengelberg's St Matthew Passion.


Caveat emptor...


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## Mandryka

Try

Beethoven2. There are three Beethoven 2s, one for Philips and one for Telefunken and a live from 1936. I wouldn't like to say which one I like the most.

Beethoven 3 - The live recording on Music and Arts -- "Public Performances"

Beethoven 6 - The live on Tahra, 22 May 1938. It is superior in every way to the Philips.

Bach Matthew Passion and BWV 157 (cantata)

Schubert 9 - the live recording (1940), unavailable commercially as far as I know, I'm afraid. Let me know if you want me to upload it.

Mahler 4

Brahms 1 and 4

Strauss's Heldenleben NYPO, 1928

Tchaikovsky 4 1929

For recordings, some of the best transfers are from Hubert Wendel at http://www.willem-mengelberg.com/fr/fr-archive-mengelberg-cd.html. He is a joy to deal with.

Also Tahra , Naxos and Opus Kura.

There's a discography here

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/thase29/Willem2/Willem2.html


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## Mandryka

Is it true that he was a drunk and that he made many records drunk?


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## Brahmsianhorn

Mandryka said:


> Tchaikovsky 4 1929


Oh yes, I forgot that one! My favorite Tchai 4.


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## Heck148

Mandryka said:


> Is it true that he was a drunk and that he made many records drunk?


I don't know...he was famous as a "talker", tho....get on the podium and blabber on and on....


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## Mandryka

wkasimer said:


> Mahler 4
> 
> I know that many people love it, but I'd steer clear of his Bach St. Matthew - his conducting isn't enough to overcome bad soloists.


Er excuse me. There's Karl Erb there.


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## Larkenfield

Superb Mengelberg biography overview with a great quote on Mahler: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Aug/Mengelberg_book.htm

Mengelberg said: 'Mahler is the Beethoven of our time. […] he predicted all the movements that have lately taken place among the nations, including the Great War and the upheaval in Russia. […] a prophet, poet, and philosopher, capable of feeling all the joys and sorrows of mankind and expressing them in his music'.

One of the best and most insightful descriptions I've read, and Gustav Mahler trusted him implicitly with his works. Mengelberg was apparently a fascinating man who cannot be pigeonholed as being any one thing.Wherever he went he apparently raised the level of musicianship and performance.


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## howlingfantods

wkasimer said:


> Caveat emptor...


I'm a HIP skeptic whose favorite Matthew Passion is Klemperer's and I also love the Furtwangler, and I still hate the Mengelberg.


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## Larkenfield

For those who have never heard it:






I haven't heard the entire performance but the strings start off rather austere, astringent, and playing mostly in a straight tone without vibrato. The overall ambience sounds rather dry too without adding a greater sense of warmth, but when the voices come in it's not what I expected. They actually seem quite cheerful and upbeat, which I like very much. I'm curious what he does with the rest of it...


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## Rangstrom

The Decca 15 cd set from 2013 is probably the best place to start. Yes it has the St. Matthew which is an interesting example as to how Bach performances have changed, but is not always enjoyable. It also has the live '40 Schubert 9 mentioned above. (and Bartok vc 2 premiere, the Beethoven syms, Franck sym, Brahms Requiem, Mahler 4 and Schubert 8).

You could supplement this with the RCO house release dedicated to Mengleberg (although I would opt to get the whole RCO box set). The Franck, Mahler and Bartok are duplicated, but you also get a Tchaikovsky 5, some early promotion of Kodaly, the Bloch vc with Szegeti, the Brahms vc w/ Krebbers, Brahms 3, Beethoven 9 from '38 again with the unique reading of the final chords usw.


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## Mandryka

The SMP is very much abridged -- it would be interesting to see the details of the cuts to try and get a better handle on it.

The performance always makes me think of Jochum's Missa Solemnis -- I just mention that in passing.



howlingfantods said:


> I'm a HIP skeptic whose favorite Matthew Passion is Klemperer's and I also love the Furtwangler, and I still hate the Mengelberg.


I agree that it's very hard to enjoy, but it's just a major landmark in the c20 reception history.Just to take one of many examples, I don't believe anybody except a lunatic or a deaf person or a person with a serious taste defect could think that what he does with _Buss und Reu _is tolerable these days.


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## wkasimer

Mandryka said:


> Er excuse me. There's Karl Erb there.


I am an admirer of Karl Erb, but at the time of the SMP recording, he was 62 years old, after more than three decades of singing some pretty heavy repertoire with what was essentially a lyric voice. Yes, his singing of the Evangelist is moving and heartfelt, but the voice itself is in tatters, and the rest of the soloists aren't much better. If you want to hear Erb, best to listen to some of his acoustic era recordings. I only wish that someone had recorded his performance of the title role in Pfitzner's Palestrina, which Erb created in 1917.

I'm not suggesting that anyone interested in the SMP should avoid Mengelberg's recording - it's an important document. But I do suggest that it's not a good place to start if one wants to explore Mengelberg's recorded legacy.


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## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> it's an important document.


It's the most moving performance of the work I know, and I am not alone in that opinion. You just don't hear it due to your performance criteria. Not all of us listen to music that way.


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## wkasimer

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Not all of us listen to music that way.


Obviously.......


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## Brahmsianhorn

wkasimer said:


> Obviously.......


"I never considered it being played that way before, but I liked it!"

- Brahms, after a performance of his first symphony


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## Merl

"What the hell did that sound like"? 

Beethoven after a performance of his 9th symphony.


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## Mandryka

Brahmsianhorn said:


> I am not alone in that opinion.


Who else?

;cmja;cnszlcn


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## joen_cph

I like it too, and one the most knowledgeable Danish record critics, Hans-Georg Lenz (no longer with us), valued it very highly, playing excerpts on the radio to illustrate shortcomings of more recent performances.


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## Mandryka

The opinion in question is not about whether you, Hans-Georg Lenz or anyone else, likes it. It's about whether it is "the most moving performance of the work" Take _Buss und Reu_ for example.


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## joen_cph

I think it's fair to point out that not everyone agrees with the claim that it is very hard to enjoy.


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## DavidA

Brahmsianhorn said:


> Pay no attention to the prior comment on Mengelberg's St Matthew Passion. This is his most famous recording and justly so. When I heard it I found it to be a revelation, *the most engaging, soulful St Matt I've heard.
> *
> Next to this his greatest achievements include the 1928 NYPO Strauss Ein Heldenleben and Mahler 4th. Also recommend his Brahms 1st.


Except the St Matthew Passion was not intended to sound 'soulful'.


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## DavidA

wkasimer said:


> Mahler 4
> Any and all of his Beethoven or Brahms, particularly the Brahms violin concerto with Krebbers.
> 
> I know that many people love it, but I'd steer clear of his Bach St. Matthew - *his conducting isn't enough to overcome bad soloists*.


And the soloists aren't enough to overcome the anachronistic conducting.


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## Brahmsianhorn

DavidA said:


> Except the St Matthew Passion was not intended to sound 'soulful'.


According to whom?


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## Mandryka

Well I think we can all agree that some people like the Mengelberg SMP and that some people don't. This doesn't seem like something worth pursuing!


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## Rmathuln

My favorite Mengelberg










*https://tower.jp/item/3238260/SP%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%AE%E5%BE%A9%E5%88%BB%E3%81%AB%E3%82%88%E3%82%8B%E3%83%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B2%E3%83%AB%E3%83%99%E3%83%AB%E3%82%AF-%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%95%E3%82%B9%E3%82%AD%E3%83%BC---%E3%83%86%E3%83%AC%E3%83%95%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B1%E3%83%B3%E7%99%BA%E5%A3%B2%E9%8C%B2%E9%9F%B3%E9%9B%86%E5%A4%A7%E6%88%90%EF%BC%9C%E3%82%BF%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%82%B3%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E9%99%90%E5%AE%9A%EF%BC%9E

*And it looks like it is still available.
One of the best Tower Japan productions IMHO.


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