# Teach me how to sound dissonance/atonal/weird



## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

yes, a bit oxymoron title. But here I expect less philosophical talk (well maybe a bit) and more technical. This is just a simple and lazy question from me about tip on playing melody and how to make it sound dissonance. This is also oxymoron because if I randomly play out of tune and recorded it, after 10 times of listening the 'out of tune' will became familiar and I can claim it is new dissonance version... So, what is the theorical (in term of melody counter point) on how to sound dissonance?

Here the simple version of our very familiar tune as starting point:


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

Dissonance is not: 3rd, 4th (maybe depends who you ask, Mozart said it was), 5th, octave. Try other intervals especially closer ones such as seconds or augmented fourths, or chromatic.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Easy: Tritone!


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

some of them already claimed by jazzy or bluesy feeling like the 7th, flat 3rd. well, I guess dissonance just another non tonic scale that sounds unexpected.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

jurianbai said:


> Well, I guess dissonance just another non tonic scale that sounds unexpected.


True. Isn't it true that in Western Music, in the Middle Ages, the interval of a third was considered dissonant? Or at least nondesirable. It really depends on the expectations of the audience.

I remember my theory teacher playing a bunch of cluster chords, then he played a C major chord. In that context, the C chord sounded dissonant.


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## Delicious Manager (Jul 16, 2008)

Manxfeeder said:


> True. Isn't it true that in Western Music, in the Middle Ages, the interval of a third was considered dissonant? Or at least nondesirable. It really depends on the expectations of the audience.


Yes, only fifths and octaves were consider true consonances ('perfect' intervals). Even the fourth was only semi-perfect.

Schnittke relies almost entirely on minor seconds and major sevenths to achieve his effects.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Try parallel 2nds (major or minor seconds).

Also, try changing key really really fast, go into non-modular chords and neapolitan chords and stuff.


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2009)

In terms of periodic tones, sound tones with higher number, more complex interval ratios. The 45/32 tritone is a good dissonance, the 8/7 'minor third' is just that bit more edgier than the 6/5 one. Also, ratios with high prime numbers like 7, 11 and 13 sound quite discomforting to the untrained ear. Remember, tones with partials beating around 10-20 beats per second sound the worst.

Otherwise, simply use actual noise (as in the pitch is indeterminate). Changing between varying degrees/colours of noise in a good rhythmic fashion might give an interesting melody.

Maybe get a theremin.


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## Sarabande (Nov 26, 2010)

Using quartal harmony you can come up with some real dissonant chords, dim7 chords are effective, and flat 9ths are good even though they are less dissonant than minor 2nds also using notes out of the established key can create dissonances.Chromatics and accented unresolved dissonances are effective too.Maybe try messing around with tone rows.


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## demiangel (Sep 15, 2010)

Consonance is created by the fact that every note has many overtones besides the note that's played. When you play a C, other "overtones" are a part of the sound that's going on.
For instance, the main vibration you'll hear is the C, but there are also lesser notes that are vibrating in a more subtle manner with the C. 

For instance, when you play a C, the overtones are like this:

C G C E G Bb C D E F ...and so on.

Notice that octaves of C appear the most often, followed by G. G is the second most consonant note besides the octave. If you play a C and a G together, it will sound consonant. Notice that "E" occurs the next most often, which is the major third. And then we have the chord C-E-G if we only use these notes that appear often, which is a consonant triad. The notes that appear most often as harmonics of the note you play will be the notes that sound consonant together. If you want to sound dissonant, you need to use notes together that do not often occurs as harmonics of a given note.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Another suggestion...

Diminished Fifths :tiphat:


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## jurianbai (Nov 23, 2008)

so to sums up, any notes is dissonances and it's respectable on paper!

hail SCHOENBERG!


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> Another suggestion...
> 
> Diminished Fifths :tiphat:


Already said.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

yeah, they are right

Martin


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## ricardo_jvc6 (Dec 8, 2010)

if you want some dissonant chords or intervals just go around the 7th or 2nd which are the best who have dissonance


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

I totally disagree with everyone who is shouting out "just use diminished 5ths", because a diminished fifth can sound smooth as silk in the right context with the tonality, while major 3rd or a pure fifth can sound like poison covered thorn in the the right context with the tonality. 
The best way to sound weird or dissonant is to eliminate all feeling for tonality and the easiest way to that is to use:
Multitonality: Write for 4 voices, the first in C melodic minor, the second in E Octatonic (E-F-G -G#-A#-H-C#-D), 3rd in F# major and the 4th in 3rd Messiaen mode from Ab (Ab-B-H-C-D-D#-E-F#-G). 


Or: Contrapuntally, use parallel 2nds, augm.4ths and 7ths and on odd numbered beats (heavy) always have one of those intervals between the bass and most audible voice. Harmonically, avoid the minor and major chords, you can use them, but only with minor second in the bass. Then use cords based on 4ths (with preferably one augmented) and 5ths (with preferably one diminished), and just plain odd chords, like the french one (major 3rd, major 2nd, major 3rd) and fully-diminished/augmented cords with a random added/shifted note, just be careful not to get any major/minor/dominant cords.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

Quite the contrary. You will have a harder time sounding dissonant if you do not establish a tonality, since it wouldn't clash with it. It will be harder to sound dissonant in a truly atonal piece than in a tonal piece, since in a tonal piece you can build expectation and therefore sound extremely dissonant when going against those expectations.

As for your criticism to diminished fifths, I don't think that's reasonable. Yes, it can sound well, but then anything can. On the other hand, diminished fifths have a good chance of sounding dissonant, likely more than a lot of other intervals - minor seconds aside.

Dissonance is a matter of context, and in classical music's theoretical context of harmony and fear of tritones, then a tritone would be well thought if your goal is dissonance.


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## Saturnus (Nov 7, 2006)

Jean Christophe Paré said:


> Quite the contrary. You will have a harder time sounding dissonant if you do not establish a tonality, since it wouldn't clash with it. It will be harder to sound dissonant in a truly atonal piece than in a tonal piece, since in a tonal piece you can build expectation and therefore sound extremely dissonant when going against those expectations.
> 
> As for your criticism to diminished fifths, I don't think that's reasonable. Yes, it can sound well, but then anything can. On the other hand, diminished fifths have a good chance of sounding dissonant, likely more than a lot of other intervals - minor seconds aside.
> 
> Dissonance is a matter of context, and in classical music's theoretical context of harmony and fear of tritones, then a tritone would be well thought if your goal is dissonance.


When I wrote my reply I also kept in mind the OP request of sounding "weird", and for that it's best to eliminate traditional tonality. 
I agree that dissonance is less noticeable without tonality (as we can hear with Messiaen) but it's 95% about context, if there are few dissonant intervals in the piece the few that are will sound more dissonant, where they are in the beat is also very important. For an example, you can find endless examples of dissonant notes on weak beats in pieces you find very transparent and non-dissonant, while the same dissonance will sound really harsh if shifted to a strong beat.
I also agree that the diminished 5th and the minor 2nd are naturally most likely to sound dissonant, I was just speaking against the oversimplification. But I think this "fear of tritone" is a myth, there are tritones all over the place in all classical pieces, since it's a part of the dominant seventh cord and the diminished cord, and tritones frequently appear in what we call beautiful melodies.


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## Jean Christophe Paré (Nov 21, 2010)

I think the problem is the word "dissonance" in itself. It refers to two quite different contexts; intra-dissonance and inter-dissonance - with the same applying for consonance as they are opposites. For reference, I made those up to mark my point more easily. Intra-dissonance refers to the consonance and dissonance within a single musical event; a chord, an arpeggio, etc. In this sense, it refers to the physical idea of consonance as referring to the interval quality; the more partials two notes share, the more consonant they will be felt *when viewed as an independent musical event*. However, the second type, inter-dissonance, is contextual. It refers to the degree at which a musical event is expectable at a certain moment. To borrow your example: If one keeps on playing cluster chords of minor seconds, a high degree of inter-dissonance will be felt when a triad unexpectedly follows. In this case, were we not to continue with a triad but rather end on one of those previous clustered chords, we would have a high degree of consistency in interval usage - traducing to inter-consonance in the piece - whereas internally, the piece would be qualified as intra-dissonant.

In a piece that is purely atonal - that is a piece in which no interval or note prevails - inter-dissonance is impossible, as no interval is perceived as "dominant" - N.B. I am referring to the general concept of dominance and not the musical concept - so I believe that no interval should ever be felt out of place. In such case, only intra-dissonance is possible.

On the other hand, most will agree that pure atonality is excessively hard to produce and rarely achieved because of its lack of quality to the ear. As a matter of fact, if atonal pieces were purely atonal, all of them would be the same qualitatively. The result would be chaotic as the emotion would not be going anywhere. That is why I tend to consider atonality as a lack of *traditional* tonality or rather as a lack of distinctive tonal centre, as opposed to the absolute lack of tonal centre.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

not another atonal thread


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

ricardo_jvc6 said:


> if you want some dissonant chords or intervals just go around the 7th or 2nd which are the best who have dissonance


This guy's got it. Minor seconds, major 7ths, and tritones.


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