# Dance-like staccato hopping



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

What is your relationship with _*Dance-like Staccato Hopping*_?

I remember playing Mozart and Clementi as kid and not liking the gestures like below. I referred to them with the Finnish term _sievistely, _which maybe could be translated to _affectation_. Something beautiful but not very deep. And somehow very irritating. (I tried to find the exact piece with a gesture like the one I wrote below but I couldn´t find it now. And maybe in the orginal there was chromatic movement between the two hoppings.)










My relationship with dance-like staccato hopping of classical music has been problematic ever since! It is one of the rare classical music gestures that I just dislike. Unfortunately there is rather much of dance-like hopping around -- both in classicism and neoclassicism where it takes the shape of _*Ironic and Grotesque Dance-like Staccato Hopping*_.

Today, my famous Random Play gave me the 1st Movement of the Stravinsky´s Violin Concerto. It BEGINS with the very gesture under discussion.







Between the aforementioned classicism and neoclassicism there is also the rather frequent Mahlerian staccato hopping, which can easily be spotted in the very beginning of the 4th Symphony. Shostakovich visits this form of art rather often.






When I composed by first rather modernist pieces, I admit to having my own take on_* Ironic and Grotesque Staccato Hopping*_ -- because it was just so much easier to be ironic and classical and generic, rather than serious and romantic/modernist and have a voice of one´s own. So there´s my own first contribution to this glorious artform, from the turn of the very century, 22 years ago. Damn it is ugly with the dissonant intervals, too! (I seem to also have been lazy and not putting the staccato and legato markings in the score.)









I would like you to list pieces with dance-like staccato hopping and honestly describe your relationship with the artform! Let´s have some fun!


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Sounds normal and common to my ear, though the first video example you linked just wasn't very catchy.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Ethereality said:


> Sounds normal and common to my ear, though the first video example you linked just wasn't very catchy.


Thanks for the links -- although I do not find the Bach nor the Beethoven actual "dance-like staccato hopping". Not all staccato is dance-like, and not all staccato is hopping. Should you want to find pieces I am referring to, maybe you should be able to visualise people dancing and hopping with their wigs bouncing up and down to the rhythm!

Edit: Even the Stravinsky is too fast staccato for me to see the wigs bouncing and people hopping with smirks on their faces.

(A solid candidate for Ideas for stupid threads?)


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

I dance to those all the time though.
https://youtu . be/eyB7iKN1Chw?t=1654
https://youtu . be/4Diu2N8TGKA?t=10
https://youtu . be/SeXobMsHDVo?t=38
but now learning about this _wig_ thing, I feel I've been doing it all wrong!


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

It's a really niche topic; I don't really have much of a relationship at all with this one particular family of motivic gestures. How about this Bartók? (Burletta from the Sixth String Quartet)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Monsalvat said:


> It's a really niche topic; I don't really have much of a relationship at all with this one particular family of motivic gestures. How about this Bartók? (Burletta from the Sixth String Quartet)


Oh my goodness! You had me burst out laughing! This is PRECISELY what we are looking for. A wonderful example of this artform! Thank you.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Slower but still staccato, threw me off as not many good pieces accomplish that, but I'd go with:

The Hut on Fowl Legs

Edit: I like staccato. Though I normally just want pieces to move and get somewhere, even if it's not fast, I hate listening to long boring chord developments and textures.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Ethereality said:


> Slower but still staccato, threw me off as not many good pieces accomplish that, but I'd go with The Hut on Fowl Legs.


You are getting closer and closer -- but the Mussorgsky piece is actually good! Like everything you have posted so far.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This came to mind, although for some reason I accept this artform from Shostakovich! And I love this Piano Trio.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I actually like dance-like staccato hopping, but have some issues with staccato-like dance hopping and hopping-like staccato dance


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Depends of the situation. If it's staccato-like dance hopping in _art_ music, boy, it can sure sometimes seem spurious and somewhat synthetic, but in music _art, _a very different animal, we fully feel in tune, the dancing hop-like staccato starts to suit and serve Stravinsky and Shosty's sort of style. There's artsy shartsy music, and then there's _true_sic, boy it seems so.



Waehnen said:


> but the Mussorgsky piece is actually good! Like everything you have posted so far.


Oh. Thank you . I'm curious about your "famous _Random Play" _and what aspects you have frequently found ironic and grotesque.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

"Just look at the bouncy, boisterous, leaping first variation, with its clever crossing of hands. Then (why not) head over to the leaping eighth variation, with the hands arpeggiating over each other, and its bouncy boisterous triads, and the wonderful eleventh variation, in which (shockingly!) the hands charmingly criss-cross and leap, or number fourteen ... You get the idea. There is a surfeit of virtuosic, humorous leaping." -Denk, on the Goldbergs


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Ethereality said:


> Oh. Thank you . I'm curious about your "famous _Random Play" _and what aspects you have frequently found ironic and grotesque.


My random play is famous only in the sense that I have mentioned it a few times here on the forum. Sometimes it surprises me pleasantly -- for example, a few weeks ago I had already rejected the 4th Mahler symphony as "Ironic and Grotesque dance-like staccato hopping", but then my random play gave me a performance by Karajan, where there is nothing ironic or grotesque. So my Famous Random Play is a good educator and doesn´t care about my declarations and statements!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

...your random play introduced you to one of the finest interpretations of Stravinsky's Violin Concerto I've ever heard. I also like her nod to the costume designs for the 1st performance of Le Sacra with that outfit of hers.
Btw, I have no issue with the phrasings you mention. They feel musically natural.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> "Just look at the bouncy, boisterous, leaping first variation, with its clever crossing of hands. Then (why not) head over to the leaping eighth variation, with the hands arpeggiating over each other, and its bouncy boisterous triads, and the wonderful eleventh variation, in which (shockingly!) the hands charmingly criss-cross and leap, or number fourteen ... You get the idea. There is a surfeit of virtuosic, humorous leaping." -Denk, on the Goldbergs


Would you like to time stamp a youtube video for this humorous leaping effect? Then the panel will be the judge of whether it qualifies as _*dance-like staccato hopping*_ or _*ironic and grotesque dance-like staccato hopping*_!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> ...your random play introduced you to one of the finest interpretations of Stravinsky's Violin Concerto I've ever heard. I also like her nod to the costume designs for the 1st performance of Le Sacra with that dress.
> Btw, I have no issue with the phrasings you mention. They feel natural.


Actually my digital version of the concerto is by Hillary Hahn as the soloist! I carry my music library around on my mobile phone. I use streaming only when actually watching youtube videos.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

yeah, Hahn is cool too.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> yeah, Hahn is cool too.


Don´t you find even the Bartok example ridiculous? Are you telling me you do not find it humorous at all?


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

oh no, not at all. I said the phrasings you refer to in the OP feel 'natural' is all. Of course staccato can be humorous and there's much license for that in a 'Burlesque'. That said, the Bartok is also a serious, powerful and compelling investigation for me that eventually transforms and supercedes any comic element.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mikeh375 said:


> oh no, not at all. I said the phrasings you refer to in the OP feel 'natural' is all. Of course staccato can be humorous and there's much license for that in a 'Burlesque'. That said, the Bartok is also a serious, powerful and compelling investigation for me that eventually transforms and supercedes any comic element.


Great! We are one step closer to admitting that this 'artform' really exists. I am happy to acknowledge all the facets of the art, and one of them is the humour in staccato. Interesting things are seldom just black and white.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Waehnen said:


> Don´t you find even the Bartok example ridiculous? Are you telling me you do not find it humorous at all?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flip the painting it's upside down!


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> Flip the painting it's upside down!


I can see you are trying to be witty but please don't edit my posts and alter any original meaning and context. That's an unacceptable and reportable action.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

The Burletta I linked to is meant to be grotesque, and extreme dissonance paired with that driving rhythm is an arresting way of accomplishing that. It's humor in the same way the scherzos of Mahler's Fourth and Seventh are; dark and bitter, if you could even call it humor. And of course the Rondo-Burlesque from the Ninth symphony, which even has the word Burlesque in the title! I mean "grotesque" as a juxtaposition of normal and abnormal, or expected and unexpected, as in a relatively normal rhythm paired with absurdist jumps, those awfully dissonant grace notes, and then the immediately following section with two violins a quarter-tone apart.

Waehnen, I know you have often written about march rhythms in Mahler's music bothering you and I'm also curious about your thoughts on the march from the same string quartet:


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

It doesn’t bother me in the least. I much prefer the pattern in string writing, preferably fast, as it seems quite idiomatic in that context. Like here, for example. I’m sure this will make you cringe but I like it. I think it’s going for a Americana “fiddle” sound I’m guessing.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

These are all examples of normal articulations perfectly appropriate for their works. Your issue with this kind of figure is … uh, idiosyncratic.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> These are all examples of normal articulations perfectly appropriate for their works. Your issue with this kind of figure is … uh, idiosyncratic.


...and rather obsessive.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Monsalvat said:


> Waehnen, I know you have often written about march rhythms in Mahler's music bothering you and I'm also curious about your thoughts on the march from the same string quartet:


Marching is not my favourite genre, but the string quartet writing of Bartok is wonderful! Sometimes my preferences are irrelevant. Listening to music is not always about me, you know. 



Torkelburger said:


> It doesn’t bother me in the least. I much prefer the pattern in string writing, preferably fast, as it seems quite idiomatic in that context. Like here, for example. I’m sure this will make you cringe but I like it. I think it’s going for a Americana “fiddle” sound I’m guessing.


I liked this! Very cool stuff.



EdwardBast said:


> These are all examples of normal articulations perfectly appropriate for their works. Your issue with this kind of figure is … uh, idiosyncratic.





Becca said:


> ...and rather obsessive.


Expressing oneself is important also in evolving. This forum is the only place where I have been able to express my certain lifelong dislike for the dance-like staccato hopping. And it feels good to get it out of my system and actually hear from other people that they understand what I am talking about -- even if they do not react to the art form in a similar way as myself.

Laughing occasionally at one´s own idiosyncracy is healthy. It felt good to (publicly) laugh (with a good will) at the wonderful but ridiculous Bartok passage posted by @Monsalvat . It was a moment of sharing. This way I am able to deal with whatever the issue is I have with this hopping art.

So again, no regrets whatsoever for bringing it up! Please continue to post passages and your thoughts, they are appreciated and valued!


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Liszt Paganini Etude N.4


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> Liszt Paganini Etude N.4


Cool staccato repetition, cool Etude! There is nothing bordering affectation nor grotesque irony here, though. Nothing at all that would irritate me.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I definitely have my own thoughts about the work, which are generally positive, and I wasn't looking for validation. I just was curious to hear your opinion, because I know your opinion on Mahler's marches, and it's interesting that you like Bartók's march a lot more. I certainly think of it as "grotesque irony" so I confess I'm surprised that similar effects in Mahler don't do it for you. Indeed, though, sometimes are own preferences are irrelevant; I refer to works which I see as masterpieces but which I can't "get" or just don't like as my blind spots, in the sense that I know that the issue with liking or getting it is on my end.

Off topic: how did you get that link to my username to work? Can I just type @Waehnen? Sorry I've seen it before here and didn't know how it worked, so I'm using this post to try it out. (Edit: I see it worked.)


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Monsalvat said:


> I definitely have my own thoughts about the work, which are generally positive, and I wasn't looking for validation. I just was curious to hear your opinion, because I know your opinion on Mahler's marches, and it's interesting that you like Bartók's march a lot more. I certainly think of it as "grotesque irony" so I confess I'm surprised that similar effects in Mahler don't do it for you.


My problem with Mahler is very seldom the material itself. It is the excessive way of elaborating on the material that is sometimes too much. For example, I do not find Mahler rhythms boring _an sich_ or when they start -- but once we cross over certain point on the timeline, I get the strong feeling that "we´ve had enough of this already".


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Here´s actually some gorgeous dance-like staccato hopping, which skillfully manages to be neither bordering affectation nor the grotesque!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

And here´s actually the same rhythm as with the Tchaikovsky -- and again this is wonderful! Tchaikovsky and Liszt manage to make the rhythm most powerful and meaningful.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This is of course The Grandmother of all ironic and grotesque dance-like hopping!






There is something about this gesture and articulation that creates a standard level of communication all us humans are familiar with. It must have something to do with the rhythm being important in centuries old dances of all kinds, all over the world. The noble and the common people have all had their own staccato hopping.

Dance-like staccato hopping is a gesture of goodwill and simple light-heartedness. The staccato hopping of classicism is maybe the purest musical form of 'hopping innocence', and that is why it is the reference point. A bit like some Watteau paintings.










When the themes and atmospheres have been established, then the innocence can be contaminated, distorted and twisted. That way an intuitively understood musical narrative can be brought to life.


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

The best example I can think of.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

PeterKC said:


> The best example I can think of.


This is jazzy and cool! But you are right, there are a few places of dance-like staccato hopping. The mood is hopping indeed! But rather than cringe, this music makes me smile. What a wonderful and brave take on dance-like staccato hopping! Thanks, @PeterKC !


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

So I have become aware also, that I do not dislike all dance-like staccato hopping.

When the hopping is part of gorgeous melodies, harmonies and rhythms, like in this Sibelius piece, I am not even aware that I am dealing with dance-like staccato hopping. The problem arise when in the music there is basically nothing else happening than the hopping. When the point of the whole music is the hopping, it has always more or less subconsciously hinted that the composer doesn´t have much to say and is wasting everybody´s time by just doing some mediocre hopping which has been heard so many times before.

But this dance-like staccato hopping, it is perfect!


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

Waehnen said:


> This is jazzy and cool! But you are right, there are a few places of dance-like staccato hopping. The mood is hopping indeed! But rather than cringe, this music makes me smile. What a wonderful and brave take on dance-like staccato hopping! Thanks, @PeterKC !


Welcome indeed!


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

The beginning of the 2nd Movement of Shostakovich´s 7th Symphony is a prime example of dance-like staccato hopping I do not care for. I feel it does not express anything, and the interesting things come only afterwards with the elaboration. Again, the art form of indifferent staccato hopping is used as a starting point everyone can somehow relate to. Then the composer starts to twist it.


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