# Callas Imitators



## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

While it's easier to get away with it if it were someone else, imitating La Divina can be quite conspicuous and is usually frowned-upon. This is mainly due to her unique voice/style and, of course, her fame and ubiquity. 

Whom do you consider to be a Callas-Wannabe and Why? In other words, what makes a singer a Callas-imitator?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

I know who people 1st think of but I am a big fan of Elena Souliotis, her vocal tone and dramatic style often were said to mimic Callas but I really think she was her own very talented artist

Her classic Nabucco is surely the best studio version and I love her studio Norma.....but it was foolishly severely cut by Decca marketing dept to fit on 2 vinyl LPs instead of 3


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Angela Gheorghiu tries it but.....


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

nina foresti said:


> Angela Gheorghiu tries it but.....


Angela does have the proper historical perspective to pay "homage" to a great artist!


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)




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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> I know who people 1st think of but I am a big fan of Elena Souliotis, her vocal tone and dramatic style often were said to mimic Callas but I really think she was her own very talented artist
> 
> Her classic Nabucco is surely the best studio version and I love her studio Norma.....but it was foolishly severely cut by Decca marketing dept to fit on 2 vinyl LPs instead of 3


True. Souliotis and Sylvia Sass. I just don't see it! Both are overrated in my opinion (in the sense of being compared to Callas), particularly Sass' Macbeth and Souliotis' studio Nabucco.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

nina foresti said:


> Angela Gheorghiu tries it but.....





Belowpar said:


>


Angela Gheorghiu always seemed to me more like she's obsessed with Callas. But her voice and style are very different.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Angela Gheorghiu always seemed to me more like she's obsessed with Callas. But her voice and style are very different.


Not only singers are obsessed , try the fans.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Not only singers are obsessed , try the fans.


Mea Culpa :wave:


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Lucia Aliberti somewhat models Callas both vocally and artistically, which becomes especially evident in the second video:










Agree on Suliotis, not so with Gheorghiu - as Angela is more about pure "beautiful sound".


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Azol said:


> Lucia Aliberti somewhat models Callas both vocally and artistically, which becomes especially evident in the second video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree on Aliberti. She even looks like Maria.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Azol said:


> Lucia Aliberti somewhat models Callas both vocally and artistically, which becomes especially evident in the second video:


It is like there is a hole in her voice just like Callas.
This is why I don´t like to listen to Callas or Aliberti but I like most other singers that are considered as Callas imitators or are compared to Callas by at least some people.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Angela Gheorghiu always seemed to me more like she's obsessed with Callas. But her voice and style are very different.


Absolutely true!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The only legitimate way to imitate Callas is to work unstintingly on your vocal technique, musicianship and acting, and to refuse to tolerate laziness, shoddiness and mediocrity. Meanwhile it's best not to engage in drastic dieting or affairs with high-society billionaire tycoons.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Tuoksu said:


> True. Souliotis and Sylvia Sass. I just don't see it! Both are overrated in my opinion (in the sense of being compared to Callas), particularly Sass' Macbeth and *Souliotis' studio Nabucco*.


Suliotis did not possess the artistry and refined subtle vocal skills of Maria, also well known that she did not possess a trill, but what she did have was a wide dynamic range with swagger and dramatic attack that could electrify the audience in ways no had since Callas......that is why they are always compared. The famous Decca Nabucco recording was done when Elena was only age 22 (the role Callas called a voice killer) it was so well received that *she went on to open the 1966 La scala season as Abigaille*, quite an honor!

Also like Callas she made her American debut at Chicago Lyric opera, but because of improper technique and a steady diet extremely heavy difficult roles she really had only 3-4 great years before real vocal problems began to surface, just a handful of studio recordings available so real fans (like me) have to search out her live recordings during her prime years.......

Great photo for that album cover done by famous 1960s fashion photographer Scavullo










I will use the Suliotis spelling going forward since that is how it appears during her prime mid 1960s singing years, the change to Souliotis came after vocal troubles became serious............


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Suliotis did not possess the artistry and refined subtle vocal skills of Maria, also well known that she did not possess a trill, but what she did have was a wide dynamic range with swagger and dramatic attack that could electrify and audience in ways no had since Callas......that is why they are always compared. The famous Decca Nabucco recording was done when Elena was only 22 (the role Callas called a voice killer) it was so well received that *she went on to open the 1966 La scala season as Abigaille*, quite an honor!
> 
> Also like Callas she made her American debut at Chicago Lyric opera 1965 season, because of improper technique however she really had only 3-4 great years before real vocal problems began to surface, just a handful of studio recordings available so real fans have to search out her live recordings during her prime years.......
> 
> Great photo for that album cover done by famous 1960 fashion photographer Scavullo


I've got that framed on the wall in the music room.

A whole new set of L.P. also, still wrapped.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The only legitimate way to imitate Callas is to work unstintingly on your vocal technique, musicianship and acting, and to refuse to tolerate laziness, shoddiness and mediocrity. Meanwhile it's best not to engage in drastic dieting or affairs with high-society billionaire tycoons.


You're my hero,sir! :tiphat:


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Quite by coincidence, yesterday I came across this quote...
_
There is a gap between singers and instrumentalists in their professional approaches to music making. This partly has to do with the training of singers, as singers are regularly allowed to bequeath responsibility for their own music learning to pianists/repetiteurs, and do not always take it upon themselves to study the nuances of the full score they are singing. This is a generalisation, but, in my experience, an all too familiar situation. Fully-prepared singers, to the level that instrumentalists are prepared, are an exception to the rule._
http://equilibrium-youngartists.com/equilibrium-foundation-initiative/


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I will play you 5 tapes: 4 imitators and Callas. See if you can identify the real Callas.

Each will articulate:

"Oh, Ari, you are the first Greek shipbuilding billionaire that I completely adore."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> You're my hero,sir! :tiphat:


And Callas, as a musical artist, is mine (and, therefore, yours). :tiphat:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Quite by coincidence, yesterday I came across this quote...
> _
> There is a gap between singers and instrumentalists in their professional approaches to music making. This partly has to do with the training of singers, as singers are regularly allowed to bequeath responsibility for their own music learning to pianists/repetiteurs, and do not always take it upon themselves to study the nuances of the full score they are singing. This is a generalisation, but, in my experience, an all too familiar situation. Fully-prepared singers, to the level that instrumentalists are prepared, are an exception to the rule._
> http://equilibrium-youngartists.com/equilibrium-foundation-initiative/


I'm inclined to agree. The best argument for it is the musical results produced by singers. Distinctions should be made between singers in different repertoires, of course (speaking now of classical music), with opera singers occupying the lowest musical rung. How many opera singers do we admire for musical insight, subtlety, or conscientiousness? And how many opera fans notice the fine points of musicianship, or even care?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The only legitimate way to imitate Callas is to work unstintingly on your vocal technique, musicianship and acting, and to refuse to tolerate laziness, shoddiness and mediocrity. Meanwhile it's best not to engage in drastic dieting or affairs with high-society billionaire tycoons.


It is impossible to convincingly imitate another singer. Perhaps one can get the vocal timbre down, but then one has vibrato, word pronunciation, tone color, etc;

Folks have been trying to imitate Sinatra for years. I can always tell when it's not Sinatra. Too many variables in play.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

hpowders said:


> It is impossible to convincingly imitate another singer. Perhaps one can get the vocal timbre down, but then one has vibrato, word pronunciation, tone color, etc;
> 
> Folks have been trying to imitate Sinatra for years. I can always tell when it's not Sinatra. Too many variables in play.


Try this guy :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tuoksu said:


> Try this guy :lol:


That is the sorriest excuse for a vocalist I have ever heard. Also he needs to cut down his black coffee from 16 cups to at least 11.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

While I find Renata Scotto Callas-wannabe in the sense that she added many trademark roles of Callas into her repertoire (Adalgisa, Norma, Lucia, Gioconda, La Vestale etc, -some were handled really well, some weren't), I still highly admire her for her originality. In addition, her tasteful "histrionic" approach was pretty much anti-Callas (who even in her wildest moments hardly resorted to being histrionic), and it seems to trace back to the long tradition of Eugenia Burzio, Gilda Dalla Rizza, Ester Mazzoleni, and Magda Olivero.

Sylvia Sass is pretty Callas-wannabe (well she attended Callas masterclass after all). However I am thankful that her wonderful gift of drama gave us some very fine recording early Verdi's s _I Lombardi_, _Attila _and _Stiffelio_.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The only legitimate way to imitate Callas is to work unstintingly on your vocal technique, musicianship and acting, and to refuse to tolerate laziness, shoddiness and mediocrity. Meanwhile it's best not to engage in drastic dieting or affairs with high-society billionaire tycoons.


Duck may be in your name but you are clever like a raven


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Duck may be in your name but you are clever like a raven


Nevermore. .........


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Try this guy :lol:


That's really scary.:devil:


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

silentio said:


> While I find Renata Scotto Callas-wannabe in the sense that she added many trademark roles of Callas into her repertoire (Adalgisa, Norma, Lucia, Gioconda, La Vestale etc, -some were handled really well, some weren't), I still highly admire her for her originality. In addition, her tasteful "histrionic" approach was pretty much anti-Callas (who even in her wildest moments hardly resorted to being histrionic), and it seems to trace back to the long tradition of Eugenia Burzio, Gilda Dalla Rizza, Ester Mazzoleni, and Magda Olivero.
> 
> Sylvia Sass is pretty Callas-wannabe (well she attended Callas masterclass after all). However I am thankful that her wonderful gift of drama gave us some very fine recording early Verdi's s _I Lombardi_, _Attila _and _Stiffelio_.


Many compare Scotto to Callas. I even heard her being called "baby Callas" and I read a quote somewhere (I don't remember now) where she says she didn't listen to Callas or something to that effect. I'm not sure she really said that though.

Others say Shirley Verrett is the "Black Callas". It's totally absurd, the only black Callas is Callas in Aida.

Sylvia Sass is a Callas-wannabe only in the sense of pushing herself into very dramatic roles at a very young age (much like Souliotis). Her timbre reminded me of Sutherland more than Callas.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

hpowders said:


> That is the sorriest excuse for a vocalist I have ever heard. Also he needs to cut down his black coffee from 16 cups to at least 11.


He has no reason to do it. He makes millions out of it..


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Tuoksu said:


> Many compare Scotto to Callas. I even heard her being called "baby Callas" and I read a quote somewhere (I don't remember now) where she says she didn't listen to Callas or something to that effect. I'm not sure she really said that though.
> 
> Others say Shirley Verrett is the "Black Callas". It's totally absurd, the only black Callas is Callas in Aida.
> 
> Sylvia Sass is a Callas-wannabe only in the sense of pushing herself into very dramatic roles at a very young age (much like Souliotis). Her timbre reminded me of Sutherland more than Callas.


I thought Suliotis was referred to as "baby Callas" because of her very young age 22 taking on the heaviest most challenging roles, also like Callas had a dark lower voice for a soprano......

Check the two "tenebres" in suicidio at 2:20-35, I don't know anyone besides Callas that can go that low and hit the fying high notes with authority


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> I thought Suliotis was referred to as "baby Callas" because of her very young age 22 taking on the heaviest most challenging roles, also like Callas had a dark lower voice for a soprano......
> 
> Check the two "tenebres" in suicidio at 2:20-35, I don't know anyone besides Callas that can go that low and hit the fying high notes with authority


I think the main reasons Souliotis is compared to Callas are her early vocal decline and her Greek heritage. Now whether her repertoire choices and her technique (heavy use of chest voice for instance) amount to _ Callas imitation_ is open to discussion. But vocally, I think she's not even close to Maria's league.

The first recording I've ever heard of Elena was "tu che invoco con orrore" from La Vestale. My first thought was that the voice was much lighter, brighter (and more conventionally-beautiful) than Callas'. It's a spinto voice at best. Her chest notes are quite impressive for a soprano, but they sound a bit forced too. Her Suicidio is not even in the league of, say, Gencer, Tebaldi, Caballé or Dimitrova. Let alone Traubel, Ponselle, or especially Callas in 1952.

There is no comparison between the two voices, they are substantially different in power,squillo, color and agility. Just compare these two recordings, especially at "poi sommessa alla vostra possanza":
Elena's Tu che invoco : 



Maria's Tu che invoco:


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

^^^ yes yes Callas is far better in the Vestale aria aided by a conductor with more vibrant pace to match, we will have to disagree about the suicidio aria since I find Elena better than many of the other singers you mention (except Maria of course)......

I prefer the 59 Callas suicidio slightly over the 52 version, I can hear the inner torment of Gioconda better there, masterful work in both....


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> ^^^ yes yes Callas is far better in the Vestale aria aided by a conductor with more vibrant pace to match and close miking, we will have to disagree about the suicidio aria since I find Elena better than many of the other singers you mention (except Maria of course)......


Callas' recording is live from La Scala, Souliotis' is much more intimate( Sala Verdi del Conservatorio Giuseppe Verdi), and also more recent and flattering.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Azol said:


> Lucia Aliberti somewhat models Callas both vocally and artistically, ...


I noticed that about Aliberti when I got her Beatrice di Tenda. Just an observation: Both singers have a quality to their singing that makes me think they are singing past a wad of chaw in their cheek. Not that their singing is bad, just an impression I get from the way they sound.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Florestan said:


> I noticed that about Aliberti when I got her Beatrice di Tenda. Just an observation: Both singers have a quality to their singing that makes me think they are singing past a wad of chaw in their cheek. Not that their singing is bad, just an impression I get from the way they sound.


I'm not sure I get that image very well but think it's the complete opposite effect. Aliberti has a (mostly natural) resemblance of timbre to Callas _in her decline_. Hollow, "dry", bottled sound. They both have very similar bone structures. It seems to me that this effect in their voices is actually due to _hollowness _of their huge cheekbone and noses.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> I'm not sure I get that image very well but think it's the complete opposite effect. Aliberti has a (mostly natural) resemblance of timbre to Callas _in her decline_. Hollow, "dry", bottled sound. They both have very similar bone structures. It seems to me that this effect in their voices is actually due to _hollowness _of their huge cheekbone and noses.


Both Callas and Aliberti did not always sound like that. Non of the other singers that have been mentioned sounds like that. I prefer non hollow Callas as well as Aliberti.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Both Callas and Aliberti did not always sound like that.I prefer non hollow Callas as well as Aliberti.


Indeed. Me too. I did specify that it was Callas in her decline that sounded like that. Callas in her prime was perfect. I don't know much about Aliberti though..


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

There is one thing I think we can all agree on. When emulating Maria Callas' style and voice, it's much, much easier to pick up the "bad habits" and they can be quite difficult to get rid of. Those things worked only for Callas because she had _the peerless technical facility and musical genius_ that allowed her to get away with anything and use her shortcomings to her advantage creating a perfectly expressive, flawless sound in her prime. And no, these habits did not lead to her early decline (and her career wasn't as short as many people think it is, like I mentioned in another thread). It was the gradual deterioration of the instrument due to other things that slowly exposed these "flaws". 
_ "Callas's 'faults' were in the voice and not in the singer; they are so to speak, faults of departure but not of arrival. This is precisely Celletti's distinction between the natural quality of the voice and the technique."_ Fedele D'amico

Those who mimic the timbre, intentionally or unintentionally, are most likely to only pick up the "ugly" hollow, shrill side of it. A wobble can become inevitable when you don't have the proper support and try to sustain as sound as dramatic as Callas'. "Scuro abuse" is very dangerous. Callas was masterful at it and made use of it very intelligently and effectively. 
Playing La Divina is generally a bad idea. Those who venture prematurely into the most demanding repertoire, like Souliotis doing Nabucco at 22 and Sass singing Macbeth at 26, are doomed to have short careers. Those who try to pull a "Puritani and Walküre in a week", hoarding as many roles of as many styles as possible under their belt, in quest for repertoire universality and omnipotence that only Callas ever had, are doomed to mediocrity. For instance, a few months ago Anna Netrebko was bragging on facebook and instagram about "a little too short a time to switch from Wagner to Puccini in 10 days. Never try to copy that"

Anna Netrebko is a singer who made attempts at everything from Coloratura showpieces (Lucia, Puritani..) to the heaviest dramatic repertoire (Macbeth, Trovatore, Anna Bolena..) as well as the meatiest Verismo and even Wagner. She was a disaster at worst and mediocre at best, except in very few lyric roles and Russian Operas in her early career.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Indeed. Me too. I did specify that it was Callas in her decline that sounded like that. Callas in her prime was perfect. I don't know much about Aliberti though..


Here she is in 1979:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I don't like Lucia Aliberti much at all. And I don't even perceive the supposed resemblance: she looks a little like Callas from the side...but that's about it.:lol:

On the other hand, I like Cheryl Studer a lot, and though her timbre was nothing like Callas', I find that as an interpreter she had some of the same qualities. It's a bit hard to explain in detail, but perhaps if you listen to Studer's Salome or another of her complete, recorded roles, you'll hear what I mean.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Azol said:


> Lucia Aliberti somewhat models Callas both vocally and artistically, which becomes especially evident in the second video:


I don't hear much of Callas here, regardless of what Aliberti is trying to do. The phrasing lacks the taut precision which was a Callas trademark; it all sounds limp, and the scooped attacks and odd variations in volume are bad. They may result partly from Alberti's worn-out voice, but Callas, even at her worst, was too aristocratic a musician to tolerate such vulgarities.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I don't like Lucia Aliberti much at all. And I don't even perceive the supposed resemblance: she looks a little like Callas from the side...but that's about it.:lol:
> 
> On the other hand, I like Cheryl Studer a lot, and though her timbre was nothing like Callas', I find that as an interpreter she had some of the same qualities. It's a bit hard to explain in detail, but perhaps if you listen to Studer's Salome or another of her complete, recorded roles, you'll hear what I mean.


Whatever happened to Studer?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> I don't hear much of Callas here, regardless of what Aliberti is trying to do. The phrasing lacks the taut precision which was a Callas trademark; it all sounds limp, and the scooped attacks and odd variations in volume are bad. They may result partly from Alberti's worn-out voice, but Callas, even at her worst, was too aristocratic a musician to tolerate such vulgarities.


Our problem is that by todays standards Aliberti is considered a good bel canto singer with busy schedule and recording contracts.......but there is just no comparison to the many great sopranos of Callas era, there was a different higher standard of performance back then

I am listening to Callas Verdi Heroines the track "una macchia" from Macbeth which leaves me spellbound everytime, the story goes that in the studio she did a flawless take, then Walter Legge listening with Maria in control room said something was missing, he told Maria to record it again, the psychological element was not fully captured, the dark abyss of insanity pulling Lady M ever closer to no return, the dark confusion and disorientation of a fractured mind

Maria being the supreme artist trusted her instincts and gives use the most sublimely demented version ever recorded, the voice takes on unheard of new variations and colors, nothing like this exists today


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't hear much of Callas here, regardless of what Aliberti is trying to do. The phrasing lacks the taut precision which was a Callas trademark.


And we will never hear it from anyone. :lol:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Whatever happened to Studer?


It seems she ran into vocal trouble at some point in the 2000's; I guess the very wide repertoire and heavy schedule took its toll. I don't know what she is doing currently.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> And we will never hear it from anyone. :lol:


I hope you're wrong and fear you're right.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DarkAngel said:


> Our problem is that by todays standards Aliberti is considered a good bel canto singer with busy schedule and recording contracts.......but there is just no comparison to the many great sopranos of Callas era, there was a different higher standard of performance back then
> 
> I am listening to Callas Verdi Heroines the track "una macchia" from Macbeth which leaves me spellbound everytime, the story goes that in the studio she did a flawless take, then Walter Legge listening with Maria in control room said something was missing, he told Maria to record it again, the psychological element was not fully captured, the dark abyss of insanity pulling Lady M ever closer to no return, the dark confusion and disorientation of a fractured mind
> 
> Maria being the supreme artist trusted her instincts and gives use the most sublimely demented version ever recorded, the voice takes on unheard of new variations and colors, nothing like this exists today


Callas felt that studio recordings required a little more dramatic restraint than stage performances, much as film acting requires gestures less broad than stage acting. I guess she applied a bit too much restraint on the first take.

You can hear her going all-out loony - and deeply pathetic - on her 1952 live _Macbeth,_ when her voice was still in its prime, infinitely flexible and capable of practically anything. No one will ever successfully imitate, or equal, this:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> It seems she ran into vocal trouble at some point in the 2000's; I guess the very wide repertoire and heavy schedule took its toll. I don't know what she is doing currently.


Thank you very much Bellinilover, much appreciated.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> Callas felt that studio recordings required a little more dramatic restraint than stage performances, much as film acting requires gestures less broad than stage acting. I guess she applied a bit too much restraint on the first take.
> 
> You can hear her going all-out loony - and deeply pathetic - on her 1952 live _Macbeth,_ when her voice was still in its prime, infinitely flexible and capable of practically anything. No one will ever successfully imitate, or equal, this:


It is the best complete Lady M recording no doubt, I still think the sleepwalking scence from studio Verdi Heroines is my favorite.

52 Sabata live is slightly rushed tempo in the opening, you can tell Maria wants to go slower and really develop the vocal character more as in the studio recording, also there is some very subtle vocal and orchestral detail (especially in lower strings) that just cannot be heard in the live version because of lower sound quality that really adds to the atmosphere and surreal illusion, it is just magical when you can hear all the fine detail........


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Callas felt that studio recordings required a little more dramatic restraint than stage performances, much as film acting requires gestures less broad than stage acting. I guess she applied a bit too much restraint on the first take.
> 
> You can hear her going all-out loony - and deeply pathetic - on her 1952 live _Macbeth,_ when her voice was still in its prime, infinitely flexible and capable of practically anything. No one will ever successfully imitate, or equal, this:


My favorite thing about the 1952 Macbeth, other than Callas' singing obviously, is the guys yelling "brava" with all their power at the end of Callas' gran scena di sonnambulismo and after "or tutti sorgete" ...


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## LouisMasterMusic (Aug 28, 2013)

DarkAngel said:


> Angela does have the proper historical perspective to pay "homage" to a great artist!


Say that again...for me, she's one of the best around. Then there's Anna Netrebko, Renee Fleming and Elina Garanca (OK, she's a mezzo-soprano!), all of whom I very much enjoy. Barbara Hendricks has a beautifully pure and more sweet voice than these others and is more suited to lighter Mozartian roles in opera. These names are worthy ranking up there with her. Again, a personal viewpoint, which others may disagree with.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> True. Souliotis and Sylvia Sass. I just don't see it! Both are *overrated* in my opinion (in the sense of being compared to Callas), particularly Sass' Macbeth and *Souliotis' studio Nabucco*.


um....are you sure we're talking about the same person?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> um....are you sure we're talking about the same person?


Give me Elena any day of the week. :clap::kiss:


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> um....are you sure we're talking about the same person?


Yes, the same person and the same recording


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Would it be wrong to think of Carol Vaness as a "Callas imitator"? I think Vaness is a great soprano, and she did _look_ like Callas at times (i.e. her hairstyles). I don't know if she set out to be an "imitator of Calls," though. She does/did have a similarly dark timbre and incisive style. Certainly a good part of her repertoire (Mozart, etc.) was unlike Callas'.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> Would it be wrong to think of Carol Vaness as a "Callas imitator"? I think Vaness is a great soprano, and she did _look_ like Callas at times (i.e. her hairstyles). I don't know if she set out to be an "imitator of Calls," though. She does/did have a similarly dark timbre and incisive style. Certainly a good part of her repertoire (Mozart, etc.) was unlike Callas'.


All I know is Vaness was a Mozart specialist and Callas wasn't.

Calling Vaness a Callas imitator is pure poppycock.

Callas WISHED she could have sung Mozart the way Vaness did.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Would it be wrong to think of Carol Vaness as a "Callas imitator"? I think Vaness is a great soprano, and she did _look_ like Callas at times (i.e. her hairstyles). I don't know if she set out to be an "imitator of Calls," though. She does/did have a similarly dark timbre and incisive style. Certainly a good part of her repertoire (Mozart, etc.) was unlike Callas'.


No, she ( Vaness) had her own repertoire, the only thing she had a against her: she was not glamours enough.I read somewhere that Muti adored her voice.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

hpowders said:


> "Callas WISHED she could have sung Mozart the way Vaness did."


I am quite curious where on earth did you find any evidence that Callas had made such a statement? I didn't remember reading anywhere that Callas had said this.

Vaness launched her career only in 1977 (the year Callas died). Moreover she was not among the young budding singers who attended Callas' Juilliard Master Classes in 1971-2. The statement can only be valid if you have concrete evidence that Callas heard Vaness sing sometime and somewhere before and during 1977. If you are able to show that, that would be very interesting.

Regarding Callas' idea of how Mozart should be sung, all I can remember is that she said in one of her Juilliard Masterclasses Mozart had been treated too delicately as if the singers were on tip-toes and he should instead be sung like Verdi as he was after all a dramatic composer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Panorama said:


> I am quite curious where on earth did you find any evidence that Callas had made such a statement? I didn't remember reading anywhere that Callas had said this.
> 
> Vaness launched her career only in 1977 (the year Callas died). Moreover she was not among the young budding singers who attended Callas' Juilliard Master Classes in 1971-2. The statement can only be valid if you have concrete evidence that Callas heard Vaness sing sometime and somewhere before and during 1977.
> 
> Regarding Callas' idea of how Mozart should be sung, all I can remember is that she said in one of her Juilliard Masterclasses Mozart had been treated too delicately as if the singers were on tip-toes and he should instead be sung like Verdi as he was after all a dramatic composer.


I don't think hpowders was expressing an actual wish of Callas. He meant something like "Callas could only dream of singing Mozart as well as Vaness." Most people (including me) do agree that Mozart's music didn't play to Callas's strengths, and she wasn't particularly fond of his operas. I think she would have made an excellent Elettra in _Idomeneo_ - Mozart's most dramatic role - and, in her early years, a powerful Queen of the Night, but in general Mozart wants a purity and evenness that her voice didn't possess.


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## Tietjens Stolz (Jun 2, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think hpowders was expressing an actual wish of Callas. He meant something like "Callas could only dream of singing Mozart as well as Vaness." Most people (including me) do agree that Mozart's music didn't play to Callas's strengths, and she wasn't particularly fond of his operas. I think she would have made an excellent Elettra in _Idomeneo_ - Mozart's most dramatic role - and, in her early years, a powerful Queen of the Night, but in general Mozart wants a purity and evenness that her voice didn't possess.


Carol Vaness herself actually had said that Callas would have made a terrific Elettra in Idomeneo, as I have read from another site that reproduced an interview conducted by Opera News.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Panorama said:


> Carol Vaness herself actually had said that Callas would have made a terrific Elettra in Idomeneo, as I have read from another site that reproduced an interview conducted by Opera News.


Great minds...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Panorama said:


> *I am quite curious where on earth did you find any evidence that **Callas had made such a statement? *I didn't remember reading anywhere that Callas had said this.
> 
> Vaness launched her career only in 1977 (the year Callas died). Moreover she was not among the young budding singers who attended Callas' Juilliard Master Classes in 1971-2. The statement can only be valid if you have concrete evidence that Callas heard Vaness sing sometime and somewhere before and during 1977. If you are able to show that, that would be very interesting.
> 
> Regarding Callas' idea of how Mozart should be sung, all I can remember is that she said in one of her Juilliard Masterclasses Mozart had been treated too delicately as if the singers were on tip-toes and he should instead be sung like Verdi as he was after all a dramatic composer.


 It's simply an opinion based on the few Mozart performances I've heard of Callas vs. the many superior Mozart performances of Vaness.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I don't think hpowders was expressing an actual wish of Callas. He meant something like "Callas could only dream of singing Mozart as well as Vaness." Most people (including me) do agree that Mozart's music didn't play to Callas's strengths, and she wasn't particularly fond of his operas. I think she would have made an excellent Elettra in _Idomeneo_ - Mozart's most dramatic role - and, in her early years, a powerful Queen of the Night, but in general Mozart wants a purity and evenness that her voice didn't possess.


I don't remember where I read/heard that exactly, but I do remember Callas saying Mozart was "too refined for her taste"..


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Why is it only Callas queens who care about their goddess being "imitated"? No one accuses anyone of copying Sutherland, Caballe, Pavarotti, Merrill or Horne, so why Callas? If anything, I think she would be flattered that she'd inspired so many people.


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## Lensky (May 8, 2016)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> No one accuses anyone of copying Sutherland.


:lol:

If I am not wrong, I believe June Anderson was accused of that.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> I don't remember where I read/heard that exactly, but I do remember Callas saying Mozart was "too refined for her taste"..


I can't say I blame her here, though I would replace "too refined" with "too playful", "too child-like" and/or "not enough GUTS". Okay, in all reasonableness, "not enough guts" is an unfair criticism of a classical composer, but, to my ears, there is an almost skittish quality to Mozart which makes him hard to listen to for more than an hour or so. If I were to compare composers to women, Mozart is like a playful geisha. Pretty? yes. Charming? certainly, but when you actually reach out to touch the geisha, she giggles nervously and runs away. Italian opera is like a well endowed gypsy dancer who presses her bosom against your chest, grabs your hair spontaneously, stares at you with smoldering eyes, then kisses you as if she is breathing fire into you.

Callas possessed far too much voluptuous sensuality, blood-and-guts passion and raw, carnivorous desire to be a mainstay in Mozart. She made a wise choice in that regard.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Why is it only Callas queens who care about their goddess being "imitated"? No one accuses anyone of copying Sutherland, Caballe, Pavarotti, Merrill or Horne, so why Callas? If anything, I think she would be flattered that she'd inspired so many people.


Most people aren't worth copying. But although Callas might be flattered that young singers are inspired by her work, she would undoubtedly tell them to find their own voices and interpretations. For all I know she did tell them that at Juilliard.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Lensky said:


> :lol:
> 
> If I am not wrong, I believe June Anderson was accused of that.


Ah, yes, good call. I guess I ignored the people calling her out, because she had the superb technique and class to pull it off without seeming forced. She wanted to SING like Sutherland rather than BE Sutherland, and, offstage, she was a modest, private personality. None of this "I want to be the next hot-shot diva" nonsense seen in certain other singers. Perhaps what puts off people about Callas imitators in particular is their penchant for overt glory seeking.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> I can't say I blame her here, though I would replace "too refined" with "too playful", "too child-like" and/or "not enough GUTS". Okay, in all reasonableness, "not enough guts" is an unfair criticism of a classical composure, but, to my ears, there is an almost skittish quality to Mozart which makes him hard to listen to for more than an hour or so. If I were to compare composers to women, Mozart is like a playful geisha. Pretty? yes. Charming? certainly, but when you actually reach out to touch the geisha, she giggles nervously and runs away. Italian opera is like a well endowed gypsy dancer who presses her bosom against your chest, grabs your hair spontaneously, stares at you with smoldering eyes, then kisses you as if she is breathing fire into you.
> 
> Callas possessed far too much voluptuous sensuality, blood-and-guts passion and raw, carnivorous desire to be a mainstay in Mozart. She made a wise choice in that regard.


My explanation is a little more prosaic (though basically I agree with you and admire your purple-prose passion). I just don't think her instrument was right for most of Mozart's music, which demands a consistent purity of tone and line that the Callas voice lacked by nature. Even in its prime, its dark, hollow, nasal overtones, strident top and incongruous registers would have clashed with Mozart's idealized beauty. Her strange, multicolored voice was made for Gothic romance (loony Lucia), exoticism (carnal Carmen), and tragedy (monstrous Medea). So, yes, she knew what suited her, not just temperamentally but vocally.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Why is it only Callas queens who care about their goddess being "imitated"? No one accuses anyone of copying Sutherland, Caballe, Pavarotti, Merrill or Horne, so why Callas? If anything, I think she would be flattered that she'd inspired so many people.


Because Callas is was so unique there's no way in hell you'd get away with copying her..


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

The sense I get is that because Callas had to retire relatively young, there were a number of sopranos "waiting in the wings," ready to take advantage of the fact that so many people missed Callas. In other words, these singers (e.g. Elena Souliotis) sort of expected to ride a nostalgia wave to fame, or something like that.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Ah, yes, good call. I guess I ignored the people calling her out, because she had the superb technique and class to pull it off without seeming forced. *She wanted to SING like Sutherland rather than BE Sutherland*, and, offstage, she was a modest, private personality. None of this "I want to be the next hot-shot diva" nonsense seen in certain other singers. Perhaps what puts off people about Callas imitators in particular is their penchant for overt glory seeking.


Re the bolded part -- you're probably right. And yet I think the fact that she _looked_ like Sutherland might have given more ammunition to those who wanted to accuse her of being an "imitator."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Luckily for Joan, she's inimitable, the occasional occurrence of lantern jaws notwithstanding.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Because Callas is was so unique there's no way in hell you'd get away with copying her..


Do you not think Sutherland, Pavarotti, Merrill and Corelli were unique?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Re the bolded part -- you're probably right. And yet I think the fact that she _looked_ like Sutherland might have given more ammunition to those who wanted to accuse her of being an "imitator."


albeit much prettier.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> albeit much prettier.


Wow. I hadn't truly noticed it before, but her coloring (red hair, hazel eyes) is stunning.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Do you not think Sutherland, Pavarotti, Merrill and Corelli were unique?


I do. Just not in the same way Callas was..


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> I do. Just not in the same way Callas was..


Very subjective opinion .


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Pugg said:


> Very subjective opinion .


If someone is unique in the same way as someone else that person is not really unique.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> If someone is unique in the same way as someone else that person is not really unique.


That's right , that's why BalalaikaBoy choices are unique and not based on some kind of myth creation.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> I do. Just not in the same way Callas was..


Absolutely. Among opera singers, Callas was a uniquely refined and perceptive musician, and she was unique in her imaginative use of her vocal resources for the creation of character in sound. Listen to her Butterfly, her Medea, or her Carmen for a lesson in vocal characterization at a level unmatched by any other singer on record.

This is not a subjective opinion.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Very subjective opinion .


Not in the slightest.The singers mentioned by Balalaikaboy were indeed unique in a way that they all had instantly recognizable timbres, and a set of distinctive (generally positive) feats and traits that are all almost purely a natural endowment. I could even add Anna Netrebko or Florence Foster Jenkins to that list. 
Callas' uniqueness, contrarily to all others, stemmed from a level of artistic and musical accomplishment that no one else ever came close to, which allowed her not only to surpass almost any other singer in her repertoire, but especially to use what was conventionally considered a "flawed instrument" to her (and music's) advantage. Not to mention none of those singers had the same tragic/mythical dimension to their persona..


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Absolutely. Among opera singers, Callas was a uniquely refined and perceptive musician, and she was unique in her imaginative use of her vocal resources for the creation of character in sound. Listen to her Butterfly, her Medea, or her Carmen for a lesson in vocal characterization at a level unmatched by any other singer on record.
> 
> This is not a subjective opinion.


As usual..... :tiphat: :kiss:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Not in the slightest.The singers mentioned by Balalaikaboy were indeed unique in a way that they all had instantly recognizable timbres, and a set of distinctive (generally positive) feats and traits that are all almost purely a natural endowment. I could even add Anna Netrebko or Florence Foster Jenkins to that list.
> Callas' uniqueness, contrarily to all others, stemmed from a level of artistic and musical accomplishment that no one else ever came close to, which allowed her not only to surpass almost any other singer in her repertoire, but especially to use what was conventionally considered a "flawed instrument" to her (and music's) advantage. Not to mention none of those singers had the same tragic/mythical dimension to their persona..


And we haven't even mentioned her acting.

Florence Foster Jenkins???!!!


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> And we haven't even mentioned her acting.
> 
> Florence Foster Jenkins???!!!


Florence is undeniably unique :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Not in the slightest.The singers mentioned by Balalaikaboy were indeed unique in a way that they all had instantly recognizable timbres, and a set of distinctive (generally positive) feats and traits that are all almost purely a natural endowment. I could even add Anna Netrebko or Florence Foster Jenkins to that list.
> Callas' uniqueness, contrarily to all others, stemmed from a level of artistic and musical accomplishment that no one else ever came close to, which allowed her not only to surpass almost any other singer in her repertoire, but especially to use what was conventionally considered a "flawed instrument" to her (and music's) advantage. Not to mention none of those singers had the same tragic/mythical dimension to their persona..


While I agree that Callas was preeminent in certain respects, I would be cautious about entertaining an idea such as "no one else ever came close." Even among singers active in my lifetime, I'd suggest Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Christa Ludwig as singers and artists of the first calibre who don't suffer much in any comparison, and whose naturally gorgeous voices stood their artistry in good stead throughout long careers. They also had much wider repertoires than Callas.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> While I agree that Callas was preeminent in certain respects, I would be cautious about entertaining an idea such as "no one else ever came close." Even among singers active in my lifetime, I'd suggest Elisabeth Schwarzkopf and Christa Ludwig as singers and artists of the first calibre who don't suffer much in any comparison, and whose naturally gorgeous voices stood their artistry in good stead throughout long careers.* They also had much wider repertoires than Callas*.


Of course there have been top-notch artists before and after La Divina but I can hardly think of anyone who could pull off such a Medea revival or interpret Norma the same way and "open the door" (Caballé) to other singers..
By "They also had much wider repertoires than Callas" I guess you're referring to the diversity of composers and languages, but I don't reckon either of them could sing the whole gamut from Dramatic Mezzo repertoire to Lyric Coloratura show pieces side by side.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

Lucia Alberti and Carol Vaness comes to mind when I think of Callas impersonators. Also Renato Scotti and Mirella Freni.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> Lucia Alberti and Carol Vaness comes to mind when I think of Callas impersonators. Also Renato Scotti and Mirella Freni.


Mirella Freni in not a 1000 years.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Both Renata Scotto (sic!) and Mirella Freni could hold their own without trying to imitate anyone. They both started as lyrical voices, working towards dramatic roles later in their careers. Unlike Callas. Plus Scotto is a great singer-actress which reminds me of Callas in fact.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Although it doesn't make her a Callas impersonator, Leyla Gencer, who was in fact very different and had her own signature sound, was never too humble to compare herself to Maria:





Translation for non-French speaking members: 
"Maria potentially had in her blood, in her veins, in her subconscious, all the Greek tradition and tragedy. She was born that way. She had within these big satisfactions during 10 years. That was very brief, but naturally, the Callas myth continues because she did really big/great things. She was a magnetic force on stage. The others didn't exist anymore. It's a divine gift. It's a gift from nature. It's a gift from God. It's a big talent. I think I have it too!" :lol:


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Absolutely. Among opera singers, Callas was a uniquely refined and perceptive musician, and she was unique in her imaginative use of her vocal resources for the creation of character in sound. Listen to her Butterfly, her Medea, or her Carmen for a lesson in vocal characterization at a level unmatched by any other singer on record.
> 
> *This is not a subjective opinion.*


Of course it is subjective simply because other people don't hold that view. There are those who hold other singers' interpretations of Butterfly and Carmen higher than Callas'. That doesn't mean to say they are right was their opinions, too, are subjective. Once we get beyond the notes most opinions of musical criticism are subjective.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Azol said:


> Both Renata Scotto (sic!) and Mirella Freni could hold their own without trying to imitate anyone. They both started as lyrical voices, working towards dramatic roles later in their careers. Unlike Callas. Plus Scotto is a great singer-actress which reminds me of Callas in fact.


Agree.

Scotto is a singer I greatly admire. She was sometimes mistaken as a Callas imitator because there were repertoire overlaps. Such overlaps were probably because Scotto wants to prove that she could handle these interesting roles her own way, an expression of her artistic ego rather than an attempt to imitate. The results were often remarkable: her Madama Butterfly with Sir Barbirolli was deeply felt, sung and acted (I must say as well as Callas with Karajan, though Scotto sounded distinctive of course). The same for Violetta, Gilda, Maddalena (Andrea Chénier), or even Lady Macbeth and Abigaile. Plus, Scotto IMO seems to continue the tradition of Italian sopranos who sing with the Verismo histrionic style, like Eugenia Burzio, Ester Mazzoleni, and Magda Olivero, while Callas was more of the refined and naturally expressed style of Muzio and Ponselle.






Freni was fully aware that she is a soprano lirico, she had her own repertoire which was quite different from Callas'. She did well what she wanted to sing. I don't see how she was considered a Callas imitator.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Star said:


> Of course it is subjective simply because other people don't hold that view. There are those who hold other singers' interpretations of Butterfly and Carmen higher than Callas'. That doesn't mean to say they are right was their opinions, too, are subjective. Once we get beyond the notes most opinions of musical criticism are subjective.


Of course others may prefer the interpretations of other singers. Others may prefer or believe anything at all; they may even believe that Callas was a poor musician or actress. The truth or falsehood of a statement, and the objectivity of one who makes it, is not determined by taking a vote and obtaining universal agreement. If it were, there would be no such thing as a true statement.

We must read what people say and define words carefully. Nothing in my statement disallows that other people may have different preferences. But their preferences don't negate the uniqueness of Callas's interpretive insight. If some people can listen to her performances of the roles I mention and not perceive her uniquely detailed responsiveness to the text and her ability to employ specific vocal coloration and inflection in response to it, then those listeners are simply unable to hear or understand what she's doing that others are not. Their preference for Renata Tebaldi or Leontyne Price is a different matter, and no one's questioning it. I might hear and acknowledge Callas's uniqueness and still prefer another singer in a given role.

Artistic _preferences_ are indeed subjective, i.e. personal. But artistic _judgments _acknowledge many factors which must be objective and apparent to the cultivated eye and ear if discussion of art is to amount to more than "I like A better than B." If that's all there is to it, who cares, and why talk about it?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

silentio said:


> Agree.
> 
> Scotto is a singer I greatly admire. She was sometimes mistaken as a Callas imitator because there were repertoire overlaps. Such overlaps were probably because Scotto wants to prove that she could handle these interesting roles her own way, an expression of her artistic ego rather than an attempt to imitate. The results were often remarkable: her Madama Butterfly with Sir Barbirolli was deeply felt, sung and acted (I must say as well as Callas with Karajan, though Scotto sounded distinctive of course). The same for Violetta, Gilda, Maddalena (Andrea Chénier), or even Lady Macbeth and Abigaile. Plus, Scotto IMO seems to continue the tradition of Italian sopranos who sing with the Verismo histrionic style, like Eugenia Burzio, Ester Mazzoleni, and Magda Olivero, while Callas was more of the refined and naturally expressed style of Muzio and Ponselle.
> 
> ...


I think the "Callas imitator" label was applied to her (to the extent that it was) simply because she was a more insightful artist than most sopranos in her repertoire. "Are her interpretations intense and detailed and sensitive to the text? She must be another Callas!" It's dumb, but what else is new?


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Of course others may prefer the interpretations of other singers. Others may prefer or believe anything at all; they may even believe that Callas was a poor musician or actress. The truth or falsehood of a statement, and the objectivity of one who makes it, is not determined by taking a vote and obtaining universal agreement. If it were, there would be no such thing as a true statement.
> 
> We must read what people say and define words carefully. Nothing in my statement disallows that other people may have different preferences. But their preferences don't negate the uniqueness of Callas's interpretive insight. If some people can listen to her performances of the roles I mention and not perceive her uniquely detailed responsiveness to the text and her ability to employ specific vocal coloration and inflection in response to it, then those listeners are simply unable to hear or understand what she's doing that others are not. Their preference for Renata Tebaldi or Leontyne Price is a different matter, and no one's questioning it. I might hear and acknowledge Callas's uniqueness and still prefer another singer in a given role.
> 
> Artistic _preferences_ are indeed subjective, i.e. personal. *But artistic judgments acknowledge many factors which must be objective and apparent to the cultivated eye and ear if discussion of art is to amount to more than "I like A better than B." *If that's all there is to it, who cares, and why talk about it?


Your problem is artistic judgment is subjective by nature. That is just a fact. Why argue about it?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Star said:


> Your problem is artistic judgment is subjective by nature. That is just a fact. Why argue about it?


Because it isn't a fact. And it isn't my "problem." And I didn't start the argument. You did.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Because it isn't a fact. And it isn't my "problem." And I didn't start the argument. You did.


So artistic judgment is objective? Why then have we so many different opinions about artists including Callas?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Star said:


> So artistic judgment is objective? Why then have we so many different opinions about artists including Callas?


There are people who sincerely believe that it is morally righteous to blow themselves up and take as many other people with them as possible. That doesn't make all moral judgments "subjective."

The number of people who believe or disbelieve something is neither proof nor disproof of its truth. Opinions are worthless unless backed by evidence and logic. I could show you detail after detail in a Callas performance that demonstrate her superior musical refinement and dramatic imagination. Your inability to hear them wouldn't make them nonexistent, and the fact that you might not care for the sound of her voice and might prefer to listen Anna Netrebko or Florence Foster Jenkins is irrelevant.

Tastes and preferences are subjective. Musicianship and dramatic insight are things that really exist and can be perceived and understood.


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> There are people who sincerely believe that it is morally righteous to blow themselves up and take as many other people with them as possible. That doesn't make all *moral judgments* "subjective."
> 
> The number of people who believe or disbelieve something is neither proof nor disproof of its truth. Opinions are worthless unless backed by evidence and logic. *I could show you detail after detail in a Callas performance that demonstrate her superior musical refinement and dramatic imagination.* Your inability to hear them wouldn't make them nonexistent, and the fact that you might not care for the sound of her voice and might prefer to listen Anna Netrebko or Florence Foster Jenkins is irrelevant.
> 
> Tastes and preferences are subjective. Musicianship and dramatic insight are things that really exist and can be perceived and understood.


First we are dealing with artistic judgment not moral judgment.

Second however much you show me Callas' "superior musical refinement and dramatic imagination" and however much I can hear them (which I can) there are people who unfortunately disagree with our superior wisdom and taste! The fact that they do not 'get' Callas has nothing to do with their musicality. It is the fact that artistic judgment is by nature subjective.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Star said:


> First we are dealing with artistic judgment not moral judgment.
> 
> Second however much you show me Callas' "superior musical refinement and dramatic imagination" and however much I can hear them (which I can) there are people who unfortunately disagree with our superior wisdom and taste! The fact that they do not 'get' Callas has nothing to do with their musicality. It is the fact that artistic judgment is by nature subjective.


Your only evidence that "all artistic judgment is subjective" is the existence of disagreement. Disagreement is not suffcient evidence of anything except disagreement. There will always be disagreement about all sorts of things. There's disagreement about what's bluish green and what's greenish blue. There's disagreement about whether someone is a genius or merely talented. There's disagreement about the age of the earth. But beyond all disagreement about these things there are facts, however difficult it may be for some of us or all of us to determine them. There are facts in art too, and they exist regardless of who can or can't perceive them.

If you can actually perceive the things that Callas can do and other singers cannot, then you know those things really exist. Calling the evidence of your own ears "subjective" is ridiculous. And yes, the fact that some people can't hear the things you hear has _everything_ to do with their musicality.


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## Makisval (Jul 14, 2017)

Soprano Lucia Aliberti is maybe the singer who tried to imitate the sound of Callas of the 1960s!!!


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