# Beethoven: symphonies



## Nevohteeb

I know, that when orchestras play all the 9 symphonies of Beethoven, or other composers, they don't play them in chronological order.What is the reason for that?:


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## Ukko

Nevohteeb said:


> I know, that when orchestras play all the 9 symphonies of Beethoven, or other composers, they don't play them in chronological order.What is the reason for that?:


Maybe you need to 'refine' the question. If you mean in order in a CD set - or even in an LP set, matter of fact - the non-linearity is caused by the space on the disc(s). Maybe its my imagination, but seems to me that Beethoven's 3rd and 8th get paired a lot.


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## Mahlerian

Hilltroll72 said:


> Maybe you need to 'refine' the question. If you mean in order in a CD set - or even in an LP set, matter of fact - the non-linearity is caused by the space on the disc(s). Maybe its my imagination, but seems to me that Beethoven's 3rd and 8th get paired a lot.


Really? I usually find the 6th and 8th paired, and I thought the reason was because they're in the same key...

But Hilltroll is right. If you're referring to cycles on CD, the main reason is because you can put the cycle on fewer discs by economizing.


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## Nevohteeb

No, live. Back in February, the Detroit Symphony, live streamed all the Beethoven symphonies. If I remember correctly, it was 3 & 8; 4 & 5; 2 & 6; 1 & 7; and finally the 9th. Felix Slatkin is the conductor. He did an absolutely great job of conducting. I was just wondering why, they were not played in order of composition, 1-9. Is it because some keys, don't go together well?


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## moody

Nevohteeb said:


> No, live. Back in February, the Detroit Symphony, live streamed all the Beethoven symphonies. If I remember correctly, it was 3 & 8; 4 & 5; 2 & 6; 1 & 7; and finally the 9th. Felix Slatkin is the conductor. He did an absolutely great job of conducting. I was just wondering why, they were not played in order of composition, 1-9. Is it because some keys, don't go together well?


He certainly did a fantastic job of conducting--especially as he's been dead for some time. I bet you mean Leonard Slatkin,his son--at least I hope you do!!


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## KenOC

The symphonies are often presented as a "series" in concert, especially if the orchestra needs some revenue -- it always works! In programming, I believe the important thing is to make each individual concert satisfying, which means a nice contrast between the pieces, a good overall balance, the timings fitting the need for an intermission, and so forth. This is probably far more important than playing them in order, which most people wouldn't care about anyway.

One rule that is never broken: The 9th comes last!


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## Ukko

KenOC said:


> The symphonies are often presented as a "series" in concert, especially if the orchestra needs some revenue -- it always works! In programming, I believe the important thing is to make each individual concert satisfying, which means a nice contrast between the pieces, a good overall balance, the timings fitting the need for an intermission, and so forth. This is probably far more important than playing them in order, which most people wouldn't care about anyway.
> 
> One rule that is never broken: The 9th comes last!


Yeah, the 9th has to be last. I'd prefer to hear the 1st and 2nd in order, but after that the only thing to avoid would be the 3rd and 5th in the same program.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

I like em 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, and by then I would fall asleep so I can skip 5, 7 and 9.


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## Nevohteeb

Oh my God! Of course, I meant Leonard, the current conductor of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra.


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## moody

Nevohteeb said:


> Oh my God! Of course, I meant Leonard, the current conductor of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra.


I see that you have retired so you may join the ranks of the Geezers here at TC.


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## Guest

Mahlerian said:


> Really? I usually find the 6th and 8th paired, and I thought the reason was because they're in the same key...


I've got a 4th and 8th pairing. Anything I should note about this?


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## Weston

Regarding the 8th parings, it is the shortest I think along with no. 1 (both about equal in length) so it tends to fit on a CD with one of the longer symphonies. I have more versions of No. 8 than any other Beethoven work and it is far from my favorite.


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## Mahlerian

MacLeod said:


> I've got a 4th and 8th pairing. Anything I should note about this?


Nope. It sounds like a good pairing, and the keys of those two works go together quite well. (B-flat and F are a fifth apart, the closest possible relation between two different tonalities)


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## drpraetorus

I concert situations, the symphonies are almost never played in order. One reason is that they varry so much in length. But also, the orchestra wants to make as much money as possible from them so they streatch them out over a full season. Beethoven is going to get more butts in the seats than Schoenberg. On a less mercenary note, if you have a Beethoven symphony with something less known on the program, you can expand the tastes of your audience and not be forced to do so much Beethoven.


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## Vaneyes

Maazel LvB Symphonies marathon...

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/06/a...iddle-conducts-12-1-2-hours-of-beethoven.html

Only for charity, would I pay to hear Maazel LvB.


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## Nevohteeb

Oh jeez: Not Felix, but Leonard. What was I thinking. Anyway, Leonard did a great job, with all the symphonies. You can buy them for a download.go to DSrg/live. I believe it is on the right side of the screen.


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## Nevohteeb

As a musical rule, musicians usually don't put two works on the programme, that are in the same key. it makes for a boring session. So the 6th, and 8th symphonies, aren't usually paired.


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## ahammel

Nevohteeb said:


> As a musical rule, musicians usually don't put two works on the programme, that are in the same key. it makes for a boring session. So the 6th, and 8th symphonies, aren't usually paired.


Do other people find this boring? I doubt if I would notice.


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## GraemeG

You try to avoid having a programme of all the same style of music. A little contrast is important. Like a meal.
So you don't pair the two 'immature' symphonies 1 & 2 together. You don't pair the barnstormers together, nor the pastoral works. You don't play the 6th symphony and the 4 Piano concerto together. Or Eroica and the Emperor. Or the Emperor and the 5th symphony. You don't programme the Violin concerto with the 4th symphony. Unless you try and balance it up with Leonora III or Coriolan.

As far as the symphonies in order, I suppose you could play 4 then 5 on the one concert. But none of the other adjacent pairs really work together in my mind. I don't see any point in programming any other symphony with 3, for instance. Or 9, obviously.

Each programme has to standon its own as a satisfactory experience.
GG


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## Mahlerian

Nevohteeb said:


> As a musical rule, musicians usually don't put two works on the programme, that are in the same key. it makes for a boring session. So the 6th, and 8th symphonies, aren't usually paired.


I found it slightly weird that the two works on an orchestral program I attended a few months ago were a tritone apart...but there was an intermission in-between.


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## Symphonical

What about the Beethoven Cycle by Baremboim at the BBC Proms in 2012? That was performed in order. Does this not usually happen?


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## Guest

Father's Day and my son gave me Chailly's 5th and 6th

View attachment 19711


When I finally got the peace to listen (5th before walking the dog, 6th after) I was very impressed. An excellent pairing, with both taken at an impressive rate. I've been used to the Kleiber pairing of 5 and 7, haven't owned a 6th since I got it on vinyl in 1977, and listened most recently to the Barenboim I recorded off the TV from last year's Proms. All quite sedate in comparison. I haven't enjoyed the Pastoral quite so much in ages, as it didn't drag, and the peasants dance actually sounded like a rumbustious affair instead of a load of soggy bumpkins!


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> Father's Day and my son gave me Chailly's 5th and 6th
> 
> View attachment 19711
> 
> 
> When I finally got the peace to listen (5th before walking the dog, 6th after) I was very impressed. An excellent pairing, with both taken at an impressive rate. I've been used to the Kleiber pairing of 5 and 7, haven't owned a 6th since I got it on vinyl in 1977, and listened most recently to the Barenboim I recorded off the TV from last year's Proms. All quite sedate in comparison. I haven't enjoyed the Pastoral quite so much in ages, as it didn't drag, and the peasants dance actually sounded like a rumbustious affair instead of a load of soggy bumpkins!


Interesting that Klemperer took the peasant's dance slowly so they would sound like soggy bumpkins!


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## Guest

MacLeod said:


> the peasants dance





DavidA said:


> the peasant's dance


(...the peasants' dance?)

Klemperer? Ha! What did he know???


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> (...the peasants' dance?)
> 
> Klemperer? Ha! What did he know???


Nothing according to today's critics et al. But when I started collecting records his was THE way to do Beethoven, according to the critics of the day. Shows how subjective these things are.


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> Nothing according to today's critics et al. But when I started collecting records his was THE way to do Beethoven, according to the critics of the day. Shows how subjective these things are.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bb...ssreleases/2011/03_march/carlos_kleiber.shtml

I note that he didn't reach the top 20 of BBC Music's poll of conductors' greatest conductors (April 2011), and was only mentioned by 3 out of 100. I agree about the subjectivity, but I'd trust 97 conductors' subjectivity over the range of subjective opinion expressed by TC members' useful as that can be (when Sir Colin isn't around to ask an opinion!)


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## mtmailey

Maybe because they play the popular ones first then the least popular later it is really hard to say.


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bb...ssreleases/2011/03_march/carlos_kleiber.shtml
> 
> I note that he didn't reach the top 20 of BBC Music's poll of conductors' greatest conductors (April 2011), and was only mentioned by 3 out of 100. I agree about the subjectivity, but I'd trust 97 conductors' subjectivity over the range of subjective opinion expressed by TC members' useful as that can be (when Sir Colin isn't around to ask an opinion!)


If you look I said that Klemperer was considered a great conductor of Beethoven when I started collecting records. That was 50 years ago. The poll in 2011 was 2 years ago. The opinions are subjective. You cannot get round that. Of course there is consensus but that consensus changes with time. The consensus of 50 years ago is different from the consensus now. In 50 years time it will probably be different to what it is now.


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## Manxfeeder

MacLeod said:


> Father's Day and my son gave me Chailly's 5th and 6th


I rise up and call your son blessed!


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> If you look I said that Klemperer was considered a great conductor of Beethoven when I started collecting records. That was 50 years ago. The poll in 2011 was 2 years ago. The opinions are subjective. You cannot get round that. Of course there is consensus but that consensus changes with time. The consensus of 50 years ago is different from the consensus now. In 50 years time it will probably be different to what it is now.


If you look...I wasn't trying to get round the subjectivity. Even if the poll was only two years ago, the fact that it had plenty of Klemperer's contemporaries (and predecessors) in the top 20 just goes to show that it didn't merely look at the Moderns.

40 Years ago, when _I _started collecting records, Andre Previn was all the rage!


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> If you look...I wasn't trying to get round the subjectivity. Even if the poll was only two years ago, the fact that it had plenty of Klemperer's contemporaries (and predecessors) in the top 20 just goes to show that it didn't merely look at the Moderns.
> 
> 40 Years ago, when _I _started collecting records, Andre Previn was all the rage!


You are actually confirming my point. 50 years ago Klemperer was put forward as the great example of Beethoven conducting. Now he can't even make the top 20. Opinions change. They are subjective.


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## Guest

DavidA said:


> You are actually confirming my point. 50 years ago Klemperer was put forward as the great example of Beethoven conducting. Now he can't even make the top 20. Opinions change. They are subjective.


Confirming my point? I've already agreed with it! How much confirmation are you looking for?

Of course, it isn't merely subjective. If I was to put myself forward with my current skill level, it wouldn't be difficult to identify, objectively, that I'm [email protected]! And I think it's possible to get a qualification in conducting, isn't it? That must require some sort of objective criteria, surely?


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## DavidA

MacLeod said:


> Confirming my point? I've already agreed with it! How much confirmation are you looking for?
> 
> Of course, it isn't merely subjective. If I was to put myself forward with my current skill level, it wouldn't be difficult to identify, objectively, that I'm [email protected]! And I think it's possible to get a qualification in conducting, isn't it? That must require some sort of objective criteria, surely?


We seem to be talking at cross purposes. I was saying that the opinions on the conducting are subjective. No doubting the skill of the conductor like Klemperer whether you like his interpretations or not.


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## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> The symphonies are often presented as a "series" in concert, especially if the orchestra needs some revenue -- it always works! In programming, I believe the important thing is to make each individual concert satisfying, which means a nice contrast between the pieces, a good overall balance, the timings fitting the need for an intermission, and so forth. This is probably far more important than playing them in order, which most people wouldn't care about anyway.
> 
> One rule that is never broken: The 9th comes last!


That makes perfect sense. As much as I like all of Beethoven's symphonies, a concert of symphonies #1 and #2 would not be the same draw as say #1 and #3, or #1 and #7 i guess.

But a five-day marathon with the symphonies played in order, two a night, but for the last night, would be a blast! Has it ever been done? I think it would be hard on the orchestra.

When it comes to cycles on CD I tend to like them in order, but then sometimes they don't fit, so have to be juggled around. But for those who listen direct from CD, having them juggled around is likely the same benefit as skipping around in concert performances.

When I listen to the whole cycle I ALWAYS listen in numerical order.

Someone said that the 5th was started before the 4th and finished after the 6th.

Also I heard there is a musical connection between symphonies 5 and 6, and that Beethoven tended to work his symphonies in pairs. I would be curious to see a list of those pairs. Symphonies #1 and #2 probably would be the most obvious pair. And if 5 and 6 pair, then we pretty much have to assume 3 and 4 pair and that 7 and 8 pair. There must be a deeper meaning in all this but it escapes me as does much of the finer points of music. Thankfully, I don't need to know any of that to enjoy the music.


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## gvn

SixFootScowl said:


> As much as I like all of Beethoven's symphonies, a concert of symphonies #1 and #2 would not be the same draw as say #1 and #3, or #1 and #7 i guess.


In the old days, conductors who wanted to play 1 + 2 in a concert used to get around this by programming a third work as well. For instance, in Furtwängler's five-concert Beethoven symphony cycle in London in 1948, he programmed 1 + 2 + Beethoven's Violin Concerto (with Menuhin), in that order. I don't imagine there were too many difficulties selling tickets for that!



SixFootScowl said:


> But a five-day marathon with the symphonies played in order, two a night, but for the last night, would be a blast! Has it ever been done? I think it would be hard on the orchestra.


I can't quote chapter and verse, but I think this has been done a number of times... but only since the 1980s. As far as I can determine, none of the classic pre-1980 Beethoven conductors (Toscanini, Furtwängler, Klemperer, Monteux, Karajan...) ever played 5 + 6 in that order in a single concert. Whenever they played those two symphonies together, they always programmed 6 before 5 (as Beethoven himself did at the premiere). Always! In fact, 6 + 5, in that order, was one of Furtwängler's and Karajan's favorite concert programmes.

Even today, I think it's still commoner to play 6 + 5 in that order. That's the order listed, e.g., for the next advertised series of 5-plus-6 concerts (Honeck is with the Czech Philharmonic next month in Prague).


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## Merl

Nevohteeb said:


> I know, that when orchestras play all the 9 symphonies of Beethoven, or other composers, they don't play them in chronological order.What is the reason for that?:


Some do. They were performed this way in Glasgow a few years back and were scheduled to be performed this way this year but it didn't happen due to covid. The only reason they are paired differently on disc is due to timings (the Eroica usually goes with the other shortest performance in the set).


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## mparta

Merl said:


> Some do. They were performed this way in Glasgow a few years back and were scheduled to be performed this way this year but it didn't happen due to covid. The only reason they are paired differently on disc is due to timings (the Eroica usually goes with the other shortest performance in the set).


I can't remember what the Berlin Statskappelle did many years ago at Carnegie Hall, as the piano concertos were interspersed, but the Vienna Philharmonic toured last winter and performed them in sequence.

I get the point to the idea that maybe 1 and 2 together wouldn't be a big sell, but I think that's a terrible lack of discernment on the part of the buying public, these are ripping pieces and the Vienna Phil cycle with Nelsons was pretty puny but the 2nd took the paint off the walls!!


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## JakeWebster

My fav pieces
3rd
7th
9th

Great pieces
5th

Pieces I dislike
6th

Ones I haven't heard in a while
1st
2nd
4th
8th


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