# Sarcasm



## Huilunsoittaja

A few months ago, I saw on YouTube a guy that said he predicts that in 50 years, we're going to have professional sarcasm therapists who will help people to stop using sarcasm and learn how to actually speak their mind with sincerity. I found that striking, because I realized he was probably right. Our culture loves sarcasm, and that trajectory sounds plausible, although we can never be certain.

But what about you personally? What's your stance on sarcasm? Do you like it? Do you use it on your best friends, or family? Or only on people you don't like? Is it only for humor? How about only in person and not texting/online? Do you like it when people are sarcastic with you?

I remember one time I said something sincere a couple years ago on this website, and someone told me "use the :tiphat: next time," only... I wasn't being sarcastic. I guess what I said was so shocking that they couldn't believe I was sincere.  :lol:


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## Guest

Sarcasm therapists? Yeah, right.


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## MoonlightSonata

dogen said:


> Sarcasm therapists? Yeah, right.


That's _really_ going to happen.


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## SeptimalTritone




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## Badinerie

Sarcasm is ok if English is the intended recipients first language and the implied humour can be appreciated. If not, it can lead confusion misconstrued anger and belligerent responses. Im a bit wary of using sarcasm on internet forum. That doesn't mean I'm above using it though! But only if its funny.


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## elgar's ghost

I quite like it - even when it's used on me. Well...most of the time... I think it's better when the banter is face to face, though - when written it can come across as harsher and more insensitive than perhaps it's intended to be (even if the text is 'softened' by emoticons).


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## Dim7

dogen said:


> Sarcasm therapists? Yeah, right.


Someone replying sarcastically to a thread about sarcasm? I totally didn't see that coming at all.


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## Ingélou

I like sarcasm - and its cousin, irony, is a literary tool. There are various caveats, but it's part of the humour of everyday life. 

Re the importance of being a native speaker, my Chinese friend's sister came over to nurse in a British hospital in 1969 and was told as a joke not to give out the medicines on Christmas Day, because the patients needed a break. She took it literally - I think it was spotted in time.


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## elgar's ghost

Ingélou said:


> I like sarcasm - and its cousin, irony, is a literary tool. There are various caveats, but it's part of the humour of everyday life.
> 
> Re the importance of being a native speaker, my Chinese friend's sister came over to nurse in a British hospital in 1969 and was told as a joke not to give out the medicines on Christmas Day, because the patients needed a break. She took it literally - I think it was spotted in time.


Poor girl. Reminds me of a prank played on one of my friends not long after he started work in a local government office - he was told by the office joker to go to the annex 400 yards away to print a blank sheet of A4 100 times as the photocopier (or Xerox machine as it was known then) would produce whiter paper. The poor kid was only 17 - what could he do?


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## SimonNZ

I hate to be a downer, but: in 50 years the world is going to have way bigger problems than sarcasm.

On the other hand: I expect predictions about 2065 will prove about as accurate as predictions made about 2000 in 1950.


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## ptr

Love sarcasms, if You cant take it or feel offended by it, I don't think that You should have unsupervised internet access! :tiphat:

/ptr


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## elgar's ghost

SimonNZ said:


> I hate to be a downer, but: in 50 years the world is going to have way bigger problems than sarcasm.
> 
> On the other hand: I expect predictions about 2065 will prove about as accurate as predictions made about 2000 in 1950.


You mean popping pills which are the equivalent of eating three-course meals, wearing silver jump suits and zooming around by jet-pack?

Or did you mean this?


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## Posie

I agree with Badinerie. Sarcasm is great in the form of humour. In the form of an angry correction, it's downright mean and immature.


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## TxllxT

Nowadays I notice too often how people bully each other. It begins with an 'innocent' sarcastic remark, but when the result  the damage inflicted on the victim) is satisfactory enough, the incident an outlash of sarcastic wit) will gradually obtain a more permanent, systematic character. The slippery slope of occasional sarcasm deteriorating into harassing & bullying is that sneaky, that I try to refrain from it.


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## Blancrocher

Sometimes sarcasm can be OK, in my opinion.


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## Giordano

Irony as understood humor is one thing... 
Sarcasm is an attack/derision/ridicule disguised as a joke, 
with the built in defense of "Can't you take a joke?" 
It deserves all the contempt it needs. 
Its chortling arrogance is pitiful beyond redemption.


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## hpowders

The difference between sarcasm and irony:

Sarcasm: When my secondary school teacher advised me to become a shepherd, this in the heart of New York City.

Irony: When I told my parent's that I've had enough and I'm moving out of their flat to find one of my own, the indescribable smiles of pleasure on both their faces that appeared in unison.


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## Ingélou

I do take the OP's point that sarcasm may not be a good thing on the internet. When you're face to face with a person, the tone of voice, the affection in the face etc can rob the sarcasm of its sting, leaving only the joke. It doesn't do as a classroom weapon, either, unless it is similarly obvious that the teacher is ribbing you in an affectionate way. 

But therapy for it? - Alas, life is tough, and it's best to face up to that fact.


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## Giordano

Ingélou said:


> But therapy for it? - Alas, life is tough, and it's best to face up to that fact.


I am pretty sure the therapy is for those who are by default sarcastic, not for their butts.


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## ahammel

Ingélou said:


> I do take the OP's point that sarcasm may not be a good thing on the internet. When you're face to face with a person, the tone of voice, the affection in the face etc rob the sarcasm of its sting, leaving only the joke.


I forget where I read that the Internet removes the two most valuable tools for detecting sarcasm: tone of voice and the assumption that the other person is sane.



Giordano said:


> I am pretty sure the therapy is for those who are by default sarcastic, not for their butts.


Had to read that a few times...


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## PetrB

elgars ghost said:


> Poor girl. Reminds me of a prank played on one of my friends not long after he started work in a local government office - he was told by the office joker to go to the annex 400 yards away to print a blank sheet of A4 100 times as the photocopier (or Xerox machine as it was known then) would produce whiter paper. The poor kid was only 17 - what could he do?


That is not sarcasm or irony, that's old school _hazing._


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## PetrB

SimonNZ said:


> I hate to be a downer, but: in 50 years the world is going to have way bigger problems than sarcasm.
> 
> On the other hand: I expect predictions about 2065 will prove about as accurate as predictions made about 2000 in 1950.


Killjoy. Wetblanket. Buzz Kill. (Wasn't Buzz Kill that dweeb in your 11th grade high school class who took 2nd prize in the science fair?)

But seriously folks... Sarcasm is very useful when some conversation (or person) is just taking themselves way too seriously, and irony has a much similar use. Both are rather delicious when the subject of either is just going on and on, and someone makes that comment which others in the room get, while the subject does not. It can be a subtle way of sharing the pain without being directly rude to the source of the pain -- a useful bit of one kind of social oil.

Re: emoticons. In writing only, it is supposed the emoticon lets people better know 'what your attitude' was about something you said. No sarcasm here, maybe a touch of irony -- people used to be able to convey things in writing ... are you ready? ... _without the need or assistance of emoticons!_


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## scratchgolf

PetrB said:


> That is not sarcasm or irony, that's old school _hazing._


What about taking a new soldier, blindfolding them, and laying them face up in the motor pool. Then pulling a HMMWV (Humvee) one foot to the right of their head, while applying gentle pressure to the side of their head with a spare tire, and revving the engine. THAT is old school hazing. Of course, I'd never partake in such an activity but I would offer to pay for their dry cleaning. :angel:


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## joen_cph

On the terrifying Doug, one of the Piranha Brothers:


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## brotagonist

scratchgolf said:


> What about taking a new soldier, blindfolding them, and laying them face up in the motor pool. Then pulling a HMMWV (Humvee) one foot to the right of their head, while applying gentle pressure to the side of their head with a spare tire, and revving the engine. THAT is old school hazing. Of course, I'd never partake in such an activity but I would offer to pay for their dry cleaning. :angel:


Oh, ****!


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## clavichorder

On lots of dating profiles of girls around my age range, it seems popular for some to say they are sarcastic. I don't know what this means in that context. But because I see so many saying that as though its some quality to be prized(and what does generally being sarcastic imply anyways?), I mildly find it to be a turn off.


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## Cosmos

I'd say about half of my jokes are sarcastic ones.


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## SixFootScowl

ahammel said:


> I forget where I read that the Internet removes the two most valuable tools for detecting sarcasm: tone of voice and *the assumption that the other person is sane*.


Ya know, I have wondered about some posters who have way too many posts for a normal person to produce in the course of daily life and have thought, "hmmm, for all we know this guy could be a resident of an insane asylum with nothing better to do than sit there posting away all day long and hassle us sane folks."


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## Ukko

Ingélou said:


> I like sarcasm - and its cousin, irony, is a literary tool. There are various caveats, but it's part of the humour of everyday life.
> 
> Re the importance of being a native speaker, my Chinese friend's sister came over to nurse in a British hospital in 1969 and was told as a joke not to give out the medicines on Christmas Day, because the patients needed a break. She took it literally - I think it was spotted in time.


Dumb joke - and neither sarcasm nor irony.

Sarcasm is, by its very nature, a weapon. It is humorous only when it incorporates easily detectable incongruity.

One board I used to frequent had available a 'sarcasm alert' emoticon. That would be useful in TC, where hypersensitivity abounds.


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## Ukko

Florestan said:


> Ya know, I have wondered about some posters who have way too many posts for a normal person to produce in the course of daily life and have thought, "hmmm, for all we know this guy could be a resident of an insane asylum with nothing better to do than sit there posting away all day long and hassle us sane folks."


Ah, caught out. Not yet incarcerated... and I have recently renewed an old interest in guns and shooting; I wonder if alarums should be sounded.


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## Cheyenne

I love the tone of deft irony in writers like Matthew Arnold. It really is irreplaceable. 

Sarcasm is widely used among teenagers, and as such I've gotten quite enough of it for now. It's rarely actually funny or witty; generally it stems from egotism or snarkyness.


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## SeptimalTritone

clavichorder said:


> On lots of dating profiles of girls around my age range, it seems popular for some to say they are sarcastic. I don't know what this means in that context. But because I see so many saying that as though its some quality to be prized(and what does generally being sarcastic imply anyways?), I mildly find it to be a turn off.


Yeah, lots of girls' okcupid profiles say that. It's code for: "I have nothing intellectually valuable within my head, please move on to a better girl".


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## joen_cph

Interesting to read these comments since they seem to illustrate widespread negative connotations of "sarcasm". 

Here, to the best of my knowledge, sarcasm isn´t thought of as much as an emotional state of aggressiveness not thought through (cf. the teenage parallel above ), rather, as a wording that expresses sharp intelligence and penetrating irony. 

I really cant´t remember a local case, where the description of a person as being "sarcastic" (same word in Danish) is actually used to characterize this person negatively, or a pronounced negative vibe in the situation.

(and this is written by someone, who only rarely uses sarcasm, honestly ).


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## Huilunsoittaja

While I would agree that sarcasm makes one sound pretty clever, it's mainly used for the person to get personal satisfaction in underhandedly insulting the other, and not so much as to let the other share in the funny moment. In other words, it's often one-sided humor in condescending fashion to assert one's superiority over the other.

I'm not a fan of sarcasm at all. The only time I may legitimately use sarcasm is when fighting other sarcastic remarks, such as "that was totally helpful of you and it completely solved the problem! (not)". Where I like the use of irony most is with satire, which also uses situational irony besides verbal. I've never written a satire, but I've written satirical scenes within some of my stories, where I make it clear that I'm alluding to something bigger than the situation.


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## ptr

joen_cph said:


> Interesting to read these comments since they seem to illustrate widespread negative connotations of "sarcasm".
> 
> Here, to the best of my knowledge, sarcasm isn´t thought of as much as an emotional state of aggressiveness not thought through (cf. the teenage parallel above ), rather, as a wording that expresses sharp intelligence and penetrating irony.
> 
> I really cant´t remember a local case, where the description of a person as being "sarcastic" (same word in Danish) is actually used to characterize this person negatively, or a pronounced negative vibe in the situation.
> 
> (and this is written by someone, who only rarely uses sarcasm, honestly ).


This quite mirrors my experience!

/ptr


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## SarahNorthman

moonlightsonata said:


> that's _really_ going to happen.


mua hahahahahaa!


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## Kieran

Huilunsoittaja said:


> While I would agree that sarcasm makes one sound pretty clever, it's mainly used for the person to get personal satisfaction in underhandedly insulting the other, and not so much as to let the other share in the funny moment. In other words, it's often one-sided humor in condescending fashion to assert one's superiority over the other.
> 
> I'm not a fan of sarcasm at all. The only time I may legitimately use sarcasm is when fighting other sarcastic remarks, such as "that was totally helpful of you and it completely solved the problem! (not)". Where I like the use of irony most is with satire, which also uses situational irony besides verbal. I've never written a satire, but I've written satirical scenes within some of my stories, where I make it clear that I'm alluding to something bigger than the situation.


I totally agree. I'm not a fan of sarcasm, either. I dunno if it was Oscar Wilde who said it (cough), but sarcasm really is the lowest form of wit. I've tended to see it as a nasty way of somebody trying to cut across me, because they can't find any way more clever, or kind...


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## SarahNorthman

Yeah okay. whatever. Thats never going to happen. As for my stance on it, I can be very sarcastic. Though its usually only when I am angry or when I am forced to converse with some I just do not like. Other than that not really.


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## elgar's ghost

PetrB said:


> That is not sarcasm or irony, that's old school _hazing._


True, but for a while I thought the thread might have temporarily gone that way with examples of potentially spiteful offshoots.


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## Triplets

I am kind of surprised that no one has mentioned recent events involving sarcasm, namely the North Korean reaction to "The Interview " and the massacre at the Parisian Satirical Charlie Hebdo.
I mean, some people just have no sense of humor.


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## Badinerie

Dim7 said:


> Someone replying sarcastically to a thread about sarcasm? I totally didn't see that coming at all.


Technically that is a Sardonic reply...Not that I would expect anyone here to know the difference :tiphat:


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## Ingélou

PetrB said:


> That is not sarcasm or irony, that's old school _hazing._





elgars ghost said:


> True, but for a while I thought the thread might have temporarily gone that way with examples of potentially spiteful offshoots.


Actually, the prank played on the Chinese nurse probably did start as a bit of sarcasm: 'Shall I give out the medicines?' - 'No, don't be such a spoilsport - it's Christmas Day!' - But I mentioned it as a follow-on to Badinerie's point, that jokes can be perceived differently if you're not a native speaker.

Sarcasm is a teasing sort of humour that can be seen as nasty by those not used to it; but if you grow up in a household with three brothers and a Scottish father, as I did, it's part of an invigorating atmosphere. If it's done with good humour, I rather like it. It can even be used as a form of self-deprecation: you make a mistake, and say, 'My, I'm clever today!'


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## Jos

Sarcasm, irony, all good and fun , presented with a smile.
Be carefull not to cross the line, on the other side the cynics are waiting and they are an ugly bunch....


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## Giordano

Ingélou said:


> Sarcasm is a teasing sort of humour that can be seen as nasty by those not used to it


Teasing sort of humor among people on good terms and with plenty of understanding is not what Huilu is talking about. She, and I, and others are referring to *intentional verbal attack, most often with irony as the vehicle*:

*Sarcasm*

noun
1. mocking, contemptuous, or ironic language intended to convey scorn or insult
2. the use or tone of such language

Word Origin
C16: from Late Latin sarcasmus, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein *to rend the flesh*, from sarx flesh

Taken from Wikipedia's compilation of definitions:

In its entry on irony, Dictionary com describes sarcasm thus:

*In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.* It may be used in an indirect manner, and have the form of irony, as in "What a fine musician you turned out to be!," "It's like you're a whole different person now...," and "Oh... Well then thanks for all the first aid over the years!" or it may be used in the form of a direct statement, "You couldn't play one piece correctly if you had two assistants." The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflection ...

Distinguishing sarcasm from banter, and referring to the use of irony in sarcasm, Bousfield writes that sarcasm is:

The use of strategies which, on the surface appear to be appropriate to the situation, but are meant to be taken as meaning the opposite in terms of face management. That is, the utterance which appears, on the surface, to maintain or enhance the face of the recipient actually attacks and damages the face of the recipient. ... *sarcasm is an insincere form of politeness which is used to offend one's interlocutor*.

John Haiman writes: "There is an extremely close connection between sarcasm and irony, and literary theorists in particular often treat sarcasm as simply the crudest and least interesting form of irony." Also, he adds:

First, *situations may be ironic, but only people can be sarcastic*. Second, *people may be unintentionally ironic, but sarcasm requires intention*. *What is essential to sarcasm is that it is overt irony intentionally used by the speaker as a form of verbal aggression.*

While, Henry Watson Fowler writes:

*Sarcasm does not necessarily involve irony.* But irony, or the use of expressions conveying different things according as they are interpreted, is so often made the vehicle of sarcasm ... *The essence of sarcasm is the intention of giving pain by (ironical or other) bitter words.*


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## Ingélou

If we are going to define sarcasm narrowly as crude, offensive and insincere, quoting people whose job is to define words narrowly, then obviously it's *not* a good idea. 
It becomes a circular argument.

In everyday speech, sarcasm and irony have much looser meanings. The OP asks for opinions, experiences, & discussion, and I have obliged. As my three posts indicate, I am not in favour of gratuitous pain caused to strangers over the internet.

But I also think it is not a sensible idea to provide therapists for what is a fairly common linguistic habit, which in certain cultures is part of badinage and humour.


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## Giordano

^^ I do get your point. I only quoted the definitions because they are aligned with my own understanding of sarcasm. If you take out the intent to hurt from sarcasm, it is no longer sarcasm, to me. Obviously, whatever words we use, we can agree that the intent to hurt is a crass thing.


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## Ukko

Ingélou said:


> If we are going to define sarcasm narrowly as crude, offensive and insincere, quoting people whose job is to define words narrowly, then obviously it's *not* a good idea.
> It becomes a circular argument.
> 
> *In everyday speech, sarcasm and irony have much looser meanings.* The OP asks for opinions, experiences, & discussion, and I have obliged. As my three posts indicate, I am not in favour of gratuitous pain caused to strangers over the internet.
> 
> But I also think it is not a sensible idea to provide therapists for what is a fairly common linguistic habit, which in certain cultures is part of badinage and humour.


My friend, I think those "looser meanings" are only the result of a linguistic sloppiness, inviting ambiguity. You may be treating the term 'sarcasm' as 'one way banter'; no such thing exists.


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## Ingélou

_My friend, I think those "looser meanings" are only the result of a linguistic sloppiness, inviting ambiguity._
Au contraire, I am being precise as to register; there is a recognised difference between spoken English and academic usage, and the OP asks for our experiences in everyday life, not for dictionary definitions. 

_You may be treating the term 'sarcasm' as 'one way banter'._
 Actually - no!


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## Ukko

Ingélou said:


> _My friend, I think those "looser meanings" are only the result of a linguistic sloppiness, inviting ambiguity._
> Au contraire,* I am being precise as to register; there is a recognised difference between spoken English and academic usage, and the OP asks for our experiences in everyday life*, not for dictionary definitions.
> 
> _You may be treating the term 'sarcasm' as 'one way banter'._
> Actually - no!


So, you are saying that 'spoken English' is forgivably ambiguous? I disagree. The spoken English must be rendered unambiguous by supplementing it with visual cues. That is unless the intent of the communication is in fact to be ambiguous.


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## Ingélou

Ukko said:


> So, you are saying that 'spoken English' is forgivably ambiguous?


*No* again! :tiphat:

I am answering *the OP's questions*, *just like the other posters*, and saying that in spoken English the lines between banter, sarcasm, irony and general chaff are all blurred, and I also said (*just like you and other posters*) that facial expression, timing, tone, gesture etc render the meaning clear and help the recipient to see if offence was meant.

Hence academic definitions don't help much 'in the field' of reality; even less here, when we've been asked about our experiences.

I am saying that I was brought up to accept a bit of sarcasm so I'm not inclined to make a big deal of it. It may be the *lowest* form of wit, but in the right setting, it *can* be *wit*. To provide therapy for the victims of sarcasm is feather-bedding; to provide therapy for those who use sarcasm is patronising - that's just my opinion.

*And *I am agreeing with everyone else that hurtful sarcasm used over the internet or in the classroom is a bad thing. So that's it. Slainte! :cheers:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Wood

Kieran said:


> I totally agree. I'm not a fan of sarcasm, either. I dunno if it was Oscar Wilde who said it (cough), but sarcasm really is the lowest form of wit. I've tended to see it as a nasty way of somebody trying to cut across me, because they can't find any way more clever, or kind...


Whatever..............


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## Blake

I've always felt tinges of sarcasm/satire to be quite healthy. There's a difference between trying to personally offend someone - and - trying to show the silliness of a particular happening. 

Offensive people are going to be offensive no matter what they say... let's not put all the blame on an insentient method of communication.


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## Ukko

Blake said:


> I've always felt tinges of sarcasm/satire to be quite healthy. There's a difference between trying to personally offend someone - and - trying to show the silliness of a particular happening.
> 
> Offensive people are going to be offensive no matter what they say...* let's not put all the blame on an insentient method of communication.*


Hah! Say what? Can an entire sentence be an oxymoron?


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## Blake

Ukko said:


> Hah! Say what? Can an entire sentence be an oxymoron?


Pretty cool, eh?


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## Ingélou

Blake said:


> Pretty cool, eh?


:tiphat: This is one of the most fab responses I've ever read.


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## Guest

I have a general dearth of self esteem, so when I tell you that I am good at something, you can trust that I'm telling the truth.

I am a grandmaster of the sarcastic arts, especially in the workplace.


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## Richannes Wrahms

This is a serious sentence.


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## Xaltotun

We can do without sarcasm only after when Parsifal heals the Wound and tears the Veil and the Grail is shown to EVERYONE. But before that happens, we live in a masquerade and see each other only through smokes and mirrors, and a bit of sarcasm will be necessary when navigating through that labyrinth, full of dangers and pitfalls.


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