# Which is the Least of Beethoven's Symphonies?



## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I was doing a listen through of my favorite cycle recording today, and I found myself anticipating the first movement of the next symphony as each one ended. And when it came to the 4th... nothing. Which got me thinking, which is the least of his symphonies?

My vote is the 4th. It's still quite good, and I enjoyed it from start to finish. But for me the oft-dismissed 1st, 2nd and 8th are more memorable melodically and have more excitement.


Bonus question: What is your current ranking of the 9?

Mine would currently be (and changes by the day):
6
9
5
3
7
2
1
8
4


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## MusicSybarite (Aug 17, 2017)

My least favorite is the 1st, although it's not bad at all, it's just for the choice.

My order is: 7, 3, 5, 6, 9, 8, 4, 2, 1


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

MusicSybarite said:


> My least favorite is the 1st, although it's not bad at all, it's just for the choice.
> 
> My order is: 7, 3, 5, 6, 9, 8, 4, 2, 1


I totally understand, I like the 4th (and 2,1,8) more than a significant chunk of other symphonists' catalogs.


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## Common Listener (Apr 6, 2019)

There's a big ol' thread which includes this subject already, over here.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

The least of Beethoven's symphonies seems to be symphony #2.


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

I love all of them, but symphony No. 1 is my least favorite of the cycle.


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## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

I think the 2nd is the only one I don't listen to on a regular basis. It always seemed to be a hybrid to me. It somewhat breaks away from the traditional "Haydn"-like style but just isn't quite radical enough for me considering what was around the corner.

Ranking 7 9 3 1 5 4 6 8 2


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

This is gonna sound ridiculous but my least favorite is the 9th. I probably just haven't heard a good one. 

It would be stupid to say the 9th is "least" among them. I'd have to award that honor to the 1st.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

flamencosketches said:


> This is gonna sound ridiculous but my least favorite is the 9th. I probably just haven't heard a good one.
> 
> It would be stupid to say the 9th is "least" among them. I'd have to award that honor to the 1st.


The 9th is a lot to take in one sitting. The orchestral movements are astoundingly virtuosic. And so is the choral part, but it's definitely a "have to be in the right mood" sort of thing.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

MatthewWeflen said:


> The 9th is a lot to take in one sitting. The orchestral movements are astoundingly virtuosic. And so is the choral part, but it's definitely a "have to be in the right mood" sort of thing.


Beethoven toyed with a purely instrumental finale for his 9th. He even had a main theme in mind. He didn't waste it, though, and used it in the final movement of his A-minor string quartet, the Op. 132. It's a good solid theme, give it a listen -- it gets some wild treatment in the quartet -- I'd really be curious to know how it would have been used in full orchestra!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Olias said:


> I think the 2nd is the only one I don't listen to on a regular basis. It always seemed to be a hybrid to me. It somewhat breaks away from the traditional "Haydn"-like style but just isn't quite radical enough for me considering what was around the corner.
> 
> Ranking 7 9 3 1 5 4 6 8 2


Sir George Grove points out that LvB's 2nd was a very big symphony for its time, and was described by adjectives such as "tremendous" and "colossal." He says that it was favorably received (aside from the famous French review) but was not considered as "safe" as his first.

Of course the 3rd would soon put all that in the shade, but in my view the 2nd is still quite a fine symphony; I listen to it often. The coda of the finale is our first introduction to the "real" middle-period Beethoven.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven toyed with a purely instrumental finale for his 9th. He even had a main theme in mind. He didn't waste it, though, and used it in the final movement of his A-minor string quartet, the Op. 132. It's a good solid theme, give it a listen -- it gets some wild treatment in the quartet -- I'd really be curious to know how it would have been used in full orchestra!


I will do so tonight! It's on my player already with my Tokyo String Quartet Beethoven collection.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Sir George Grove points out that LvB's 2nd was a very big symphony for its time, and was described by adjectives such as "tremendous" and "colossal." He says that it was favorably received (aside from the famous French review) but was not considered as "safe" as his first.
> 
> Of course the 3rd was to put all that in the shade, but in my view the 2nd is still quite a fine symphony; I listen to it often.


I adore the second, especially the first movement. It's so catchy and energetic, and really sticks in the head. I've never pooh poohed the 2nd.

It's the amazing thing about Beethoven. His so-so symphonies still outstrip the majority of his German Romantic peers and followers. Only Brahms would crack the top half of Beethoven's list if his were added to it.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

In the 1st movement of Beethoven's 2nd, listen for the brilliant violin flourishes. Ludwig never again wrote for the violins like this!


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

My order: 9, 7, 6, 5, 3, 8, 4, 1, 2.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

The first two I don't care for, the ninth I really, really dislike.

My ranking:
6 5 7 3 4 8 2 1 9


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Which is the Least of Beethoven's Symphonies?*

Any of the ones written by Ferdinand Ries.

Or, the "Battle" Symphony" (_Wellington's Victory_).

It's a toss up.

But, had Beethoven, like Bruckner, written a Symphony No. "0" ("Die Nullte") or a Symphony No. 00, "Study Symphony" or, as I like to call it, "Die Nullte Nullte"!), I might go for that.

Or his Tenth Symphony (which was finished, apparently, with some help by Dr. Barry Cooper -- at least a movement of it was finished).

Nah!

On second thought, I'll stay with the Ries symphonies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

That Cooper 10th is a real stinker! Yes, Ries did better. He was his own Raff.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven toyed with a purely instrumental finale for his 9th. He even had a main theme in mind. He didn't waste it, though, and used it in the final movement of his A-minor string quartet, the Op. 132. It's a good solid theme, give it a listen -- it gets some wild treatment in the quartet -- I'd really be curious to know how it would have been used in full orchestra!


I suppose someone has attempted producing some sort of instrumental 4th movement.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I suppose someone has attempted producing some sort of instrumental 4th movement.


That would be nice, but I've never heard of such an effort.


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

The second symphony is the least of the nine. 

7, 3, 6, 5, 9, 8, 4, 1, 2


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> The first two I don't care for, the ninth I really, really dislike.
> 
> My ranking:
> 6 5 7 3 4 8 2 1 9


I feel like being in a therapy group... Have to confess my love for the first two has been growing in recent years and they no longer sit at the rock bottom which is now permanently occupied by the ninth. :lol:


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

KenOC said:


> Beethoven toyed with a purely instrumental finale for his 9th. He even had a main theme in mind. He didn't waste it, though, and used it in the final movement of his A-minor string quartet, the Op. 132. It's a good solid theme, give it a listen -- it gets some wild treatment in the quartet -- I'd really be curious to know how it would have been used in full orchestra!


Just finished listening. Great quartet! The finale was nice, but what did it for me were the lush slow movements. Sublime.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I love the 4th (well I love all of them, as you know). The 2nd is still my least favourite but it's still a good symphony, just not a great one.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

There aren't any inferior symphonies among Beethoven's Nine, ignoring of course Wellington, the Tenth and the Jena! But I will especially never want to hear a bad word about No.7, or about No.4, which is an absolute gem.

It's a bit like asking which Alp is underwhelming!


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

3, 5, 6, and 9 are equally at the top for me, followed by 7, 8 and 4 with 1 and 2 at the bottom.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> There aren't any inferior symphonies among Beethoven's Nine, ignoring of course Wellington, the Tenth and the Jena! But I will especially never want to hear a bad word about No.7, or about No.4, which is an absolute gem.
> 
> It's a bit like asking which Alp is underwhelming!


The 4th is indeed a gem. I listened to it last night. It has a great "flow" that of the 9 only maybe the 5th and 6th can top.

Worthy follow-up to the Eroica I say.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Merl said:


> I love the 4th (well I love all of them, as you know). The 2nd is still my least favourite but it's still a good symphony, just not a great one.


That reminds me of what Mariss Jansons once said in an interview about how great the opening of the second symphony was - "Bom-Bom--- that sounds like the ninth symphony!" Thought that was cute.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Beethoven Sym #1 is the "least", as it were...still a good piece, tho, but not on the creative level of genius of what was to come..
#4 is a great work, really excellent...probably the toughest to play, overall.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> Beethoven Sym #1 is the "least", as it were...still a good piece, tho, but not on the creative level of genius of what was to come..
> #4 is a great work, really excellent...probably the toughest to play, overall.


I'm glad you said that, Heck, I was going to ask you which was the toughest to play.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2019)

janxharris said:


> 3, 5, 6, and 9 are equally at the top for me, followed by 7, 8 and 4 with 1 and 2 at the bottom.


Oh, this is really ecstatic and cannot be overlooked: Symphony 2, 2nd movement - which Beethoven composed at about the same time as he wrote the "Heiligenstadt Testament".


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## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I like the 4th, although not as much as the more famous ones. I don't get the 8th at all, although it's still perfectly passable as background music, was astounded to discover that Beethoven considered it better than the 7th (or maybe he was joking, it seems to have been hard to tell sometimes). The 1st and 2nd are pleasant although clearly heavily influenced by Haydn and Mozart, which I suppose is only to be expected.

I guess my order would be: 7, 5, 3, 6, 9, 4, 2, 1, 8. All a matter of personal taste though.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

My rankings of the Beethoven Symphonies have tended to jump around more than those of any other composer.

Current listing: 5,6,2,3,9,7,8,1,4


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Merl said:


> I'm glad you said that, Heck, I was going to ask you which was the toughest to play.


the woodwind parts are tough, the bassoon part ALWAYS appears on auditions...great stuff for clarinets and horns, too...the string parts in the finale are tough, esp if the conductor wants to zip along - Monteux, Reiner, Mravinsky....in the same mode as Haffner Sym/IV, or Schumann #2/II [same key]...


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Beethoven #2 gets a bad rap, I don't know why...excellent piece, the budding genius is blossoming forth....


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## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

My order: 7,5,6,3,4,8,2,1,9


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## Guest (May 1, 2019)

My order:

3, 7, 4, 6, 2, 5, 9, 8, 1


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## Guest (May 1, 2019)

My order, best first: 3, 7, 9, 6, 5, 8, 1, 4, 2


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I do hope that all Forum readers realize that one's personal "dislike" of a symphony does not necessarily qualify it as the "least" of symphonies. I appreciate Beethoven's Third as a masterwork of innovation, one of the greatest works in the genre, but I don't especially listen to it as often as I do the others. I wouldn't say I "dislike" it, but I like others more. Yet, those "others" don't seem to prove as great as symphonic representations of style or innovation, and if I had to save only one Beethoven symphony I'd be hard pressed to choose between the Fifth and the Third. Yet, the Fifth I listen to dozens of times yearly; the Third is much less frequent on my personal playlist. To get to select _three_ Beethoven's to preserve, I likely would choose the Ninth as the third choice. It's that _fourth_ pick that would really be a challenge. And yet, one of my favorite symphonies is the Seventh, and I'm letting it go till that possible fourth pick; and even then the Sixth looms large. And I'm mindful that the Eighth is so startlingly _different_ that it seems to beckon a whole new era in musical thought; can we ignore it? Which leaves One, Two and Four, each of which possesses (maybe more than any of the others) a quintessential Beethoven sound. (To my ears, the _Egmont_ Overture remains the quintessential Beethoven work -- the one work I would use to introduce someone to the "sound" of Beethoven. It's not one of the innovative masterpieces, but it is quintessential Beethoven. And that counts for much.)

Finally, I probably listen to the First more than any of the others. I like it, a lot. It's both charming and powerful, unique and memorable -- sort of a combination Mozart/Haydn symphony, of the best sort. Following this, I often listen to the Second and Fourth -- partly because of their brevity (which makes them easy to program for a sit-down listen-through) and muchly because they are just so fine as symphonies, both with many many plusses to their credit.

So … please caution yourself if you must select a "dislike" as a "least." You may just be off the mark.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

SONNET CLV said:


> So … please caution yourself if you must select a "dislike" as a "least." You may just be off the mark.


I think no-one who posted a choice and a ranking did that from other considerations than personal preference.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Art Rock said:


> I think no-one who posted a choice and a ranking did that from other considerations than personal preference.


Yep. That's where I was coming from.

I love all 9, really. Also, I'd go with Coriolan as my favorite overture.


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

As of this moment I'll say (favorite to least) 6,5,3,7,8,4,2,1,9.

But I could never call the 9th "the least"...it may well be his greatest symphony. I simply don't derive quite as much enjoyment listening to it as the others, and I certainly wouldn't want to listen to it as often as the others.


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