# Moral alignment chart of composers



## Guest (Jun 12, 2019)

Found this online. A moral alignment chart for the classical composers.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

OK, I don't understand this at all.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Definitely going to argue our dear Dmitri Shostakovich fits a bit better in the "chaotic good" place. That guy dealt with more chaos than he knew what to do with. Switch him with Liszt and I've no more qualms.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

KenOC said:


> OK, I don't understand this at all.


Disclaimer: OP, this might belong in the 'Off Topic' section, depending on what TC's conviction on memes is. They may not be allowed in the primary classical music discussions. I'm not sure myself.

Specifically for those a little older who are perhaps less exposed to the younger generations' general output of (oftentimes nonsense) material: this one is a meme. Following with the trend of much of our ironic joking these days, it takes some concept that used to have some level of seriousness, and replicates it ("memetically") with a new spin on the joke each time. This format just takes the 'character alignment' trope, and you could fill in whichever set of characters you want.

Again, not sure about TC's conviction on memes in the main forums. I'm leaning toward this should be moved.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The whole concept is Chaotic Evil.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> The whole concept is Chaotic Evil.


If you wanted us off your lawn you could've just said so.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

You could perhaps make a genuine one using only a composer's music rather than his biography. It should be very interesting.

Art after all has huge effects on politics. I was just rewatching the movie Midnight Cowboy and realized how deep an impact it had, even if it's a blatant lie. In that case it was bad art having a significant impact, while 200 years ago there was perhaps a higher standard.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Even without the labels, the grouping is suspect. Mozart and Franz Liszt? Maurice Ravel, Frederick Chopin, and Robert Schumann? The entire idea of it looks like a faulty alignment.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Are we going by the people who liked the music, or by the composers themselves? 

Because Bruckner sounds like he was a pretty nice, humble guy.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2019)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Are we going by the people who liked the music, or by the composers themselves?
> 
> Because Bruckner sounds like he was a pretty nice, humble guy.


The composers themselves.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2019)

Apparently, it's a lift from Dungeons And Dragons...

https://indierella.com/2019/04/11/classical-music-as-a-dungeons-dragons-alignment-chart/


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

KenOC said:


> OK, I don't understand this at all.


Here's a more thorough explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

This is trivial, ridiculous and generally insulting to classical music. Moderators, could it be moved to the "Has Nothing to Do with Anything" catagory? Thanks.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

I saw a docu on Beethoven's life, decades ago,,,i faintly recall he had a few hangups.
Not sure if he is in the correct category. 
Not sure, ,,in fact ,,the correct category is not listed in the over simplistic charts. 

Ravel was reclusive, elusive. I do not think he was a *overly friendly/outgoing * type.

I understand ravel as a mystic. 

Shostakovich, Schoenberg, ,,well heck, quitea few were ,not that easy to get along with. In Shostakovich's case, its quite understandable, also Schoenberg; case, with antisemitism strong throughout Europe. 

Composers , lets face it, are quite special , and are beyond the general rules of criticisms. 
I could care less what kind of personality traits they had/lacked. 
Creative genius can not be pigeon holed , nor should they be critiqued as you would a normal person. 
Jung had some things to say about Wagner's antics and fantasies. 
As I say,,,the only composer I feel stepped over the line, was Beethoven. 
As I have little regard for his music, that's neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.


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## Guest (Jun 12, 2019)

D Smith said:


> This is trivial, ridiculous and generally insulting to classical music. Moderators, could it be moved to the "Has Nothing to Do with Anything" catagory? Thanks.


So too is a lot of other stuff that gets posted on here, stuff that often generates many pages of comment that wanders far and wide off topic, whilst the OP sits tight and seldom says a further word.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Years ago on Dilbert, Dogbert had a similar chart classifying people into four basic types: smart/cute, smart/ugly, stupid/cute, stupid/ugly. Accurate as far as I can tell.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

1996D said:


> Art after all has huge effects on politics. I was just rewatching the movie Midnight Cowboy and realized how deep an impact it had, even if it's a blatant lie. In that case it was bad art having a significant impact, while 200 years ago there was perhaps a higher standard.


This is so off-topic, but in what sense is it a "blatant lie"? Just curious - I love this film, and the accolades and awards it has won are fully deserved. One of those films that no one should ever attempt to remake.


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## TapeMeasureTobias (Jun 14, 2019)

It's odd listening to Gesualdo's music knowing what he did.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

TapeMeasureTobias said:


> It's odd listening to Gesualdo's music knowing what he did.


I am in the dark, and don't want to know,,,I recall somewhere in one of Jung;s lecture series, where he expressed appalment and even ,,disgust , about something in Wagner's personal life...which to me is neither here nor there,,I am only concerned about the art, its quality, its beauty.

I gathered that Jung might have had *hangups* while trying to enjoy Wagner's masterpieces. But then again,, not sure, as Jung had many sides, and perhaps I am completely wrong about his ultimate opinions on Wagner's art. Jung loved great art, and the Germanic folk/heroic lore. which is so poignantly expressed in Wagner's great operas.

I guess no one wants to talk about some of Beethoven's hangups….


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2019)

D Smith said:


> This is trivial, ridiculous and generally insulting to classical music.


Or, alternatively, 'fun'?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TapeMeasureTobias said:


> It's odd listening to Gesualdo's music knowing what he did.


It's sometimes tempting to read what we know of a composer's personality or behavior into his music. In Gesualdo's case it might be amusing to imagine his sometimes bizarre chromaticism, his harmonic nonsequiturs, as symptomatic of an unstable mind. But I don't think we should draw too clear a line between a person's art and his life.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

MatthewWeflen said:


> Are we going by the people who liked the music, or by the composers themselves?
> 
> Because Bruckner sounds like he was a pretty nice, humble guy.


Well, apart from his humble and catholic devoted appearance, which could well translate into an exegesis of his music, Bruckner was a very obscure person.

Spoiler alert: Don't read this following article if you want to preserve your innocent God-fearing image of Anton Bruckner

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/01/sex-death-dissonance-anton-bruckner-concertgebouw-orchestra

After reading this, you probably have another image of the humble pious Austrian farmer look-a-like, who has left us with such great music. At least, he obviously could very well separate his personal life from his music.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> It's sometimes tempting to read what we know of a composer's personality or behavior into his music. In Gesualdo's case it might be amusing to imagine his sometimes bizarre chromaticism, his harmonic nonsequiturs, as symptomatic of an unstable mind. *But I don't think we should draw too clear a line between a person's art and his life.*


Wooduck, I feel this way about Britten and his alleged questionable behaviour around youngsters. Undoubtedly he was one of the most gifted of composers but may well have been flawed in this regard. 
There is an undoubted quandry in my relation to his work as a result of this. On the one hand his music is technically beyond reproach whether one likes it or not - a quality I admire and one consistent with the highest levels of composing. However, one cannot deny the persistent insinuation and rumour and so I have had to rationalise and divorce the work from the man (and therefore hear and appreciate the music as just that). In this way I have come to a detante with his personality, but only because I understand his written work from a composer's technical pov.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2019)

I always like read up about composers I'm especially interested in. The list has grown considerably over the years. 

Stories about, for example, Gesualdo's murder of his wife, Handel's excessive eating, Beethoven's excessive drinking and bad social graces, Schubert's alleged frequenting of the brothel area of Vienna, Bruckner's fascination with the dead, Wagner's dislike of Jews, Britten's alleged sexual peccadilloes, and all the rest of it, so often get brought up. 

It's not only famous composers, but quite often some of the best known performers and conductors of the past get dragged into the discussion, especially those with alleged Nazi Party sympathies. 

I've seen nothing in this thread so far that I didn't already know about them many years ago. This is partly because I've seen how badly the "press" these days can sometimes make up and exaggerate stories about certain well-known people, simply to sell more papers ("fake news"). I therefore don't always believe some of what I've read about famous composers and artists of the past. 

It's also because it's often difficult for people these days to adjust their minds to take account of social situations that existed decades, or centuries, in the past. Some kind of aberrant behaviour today that seems "shocking" to some people may have had a far lesser stigma attached to it years ago. This obviously excludes things like murder etc, but that particular case (Gesualdo) was exceptional. Basically, I don't let adverse stories about the people who wrote and performed the music I enjoy bother me.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> It's sometimes tempting to read what we know of a composer's personality or behavior into his music. In Gesualdo's case it might be amusing to imagine his sometimes bizarre chromaticism, his harmonic nonsequiturs, as symptomatic of an unstable mind. But I don't think we should draw too clear a line between a person's art and his life.


Spoken like a true Wagnerian


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

mikeh375 said:


> Wooduck, I feel this way about Britten and his alleged questionable behaviour around youngsters. Undoubtedly he was one of the most gifted of composers but may well have been flawed in this regard.
> There is an undoubted quandry in my relation to his work as a result of this. On the one hand his music is technically beyond reproach whether one likes it or not - a quality I admire and one consistent with the highest levels of composing. However, one cannot deny the persistent insinuation and rumour and so I have had to rationalise and divorce the work from the man (and therefore hear and appreciate the music as just that). In this way I have come to a detante with his personality, but only because I understand his written work from a composer's technical pov.


Child abuse is deeply abhorrent and as a big Britten fan I have shared your concerns. But, although the evidence says that Britten was attracted to under age boys, it does not say - despite many looking - that he actually harmed (abused) any of them. He had a stable and long-term relationship with a man of his own age (Peter Pears). Charles Mackerras tells a story of being concerned about Britten's obvious attraction to a boy who had a role in an opera they were doing together. Britten got to hear about the concern and was apparently deeply shocked and angry that anyone could think he would actually rape or molest the boy.

Pending evidence to the contrary emerging, it seems that Britten had a moral compass as well a taste that could have led him into crime and abuse. These days we are very skeptical of such arguments (with good reason) but I do believe that people can resist urges to harm others. I remember a teacher at school who very obviously formed attractions to the more beautiful boys in a class (we all saw it and knew it) but I know for a fact that he never abused any kids at the school. Similarly, but for a different perversion, the writer John Cowper Powys has described in great detail an obsession with extreme (and deadly) sadism but, needless to say, he never acted upon those urges.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

this reminds of the Dungeons and Dragons campaings that I played as a teenager. I was a dungeon master for several years. I have no idea why Bruckner is lawful evil. He was a very pious man. Lawful evil would be Scriabin, since he dabbled in dark magic and wanted to destroy the whole world. Basically the whole table is nonsensical. Why is Schumann true neutral? He had a bipolar disorder, so he essentially qualifies for chaotic. He was more likely chaotic neutral


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Jacck said:


> this reminds of the Dungeons and Dragons campaings that I played as a teenager. I was a dungeon master for several years. I have no idea why Bruckner is lawful evil. He was a very pious man. Lawful evil would be Scriabin, since he dabbled in dark magic and wanted to destroy the whole world. Basically the whole table is nonsensical. Why is Schumann true neutral? He had a bipolar disorder, so he essentially qualifies for chaotic. He was more likely chaotic neutral


I agree with all that. Bruckner would be lawful good, maybe lawful neutral.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Enthusiast said:


> Child abuse is deeply abhorrent and as a big Britten fan I have shared your concerns. But, although the evidence says that Britten was attracted to under age boys, it does not say - despite many looking - that he actually harmed (abused) any of them. He had a stable and long-term relationship with a man of his own age (Peter Pears). Charles Mackerras tells a story of being concerned about Britten's obvious attraction to a boy who had a role in an opera they were doing together. Britten got to hear about the concern and was apparently deeply shocked and angry that anyone could think he would actually rape or molest the boy.
> 
> Pending evidence to the contrary emerging, it seems that Britten had a moral compass as well a taste that could have led him into crime and abuse. These days we are very skeptical of such arguments (with good reason) but I do believe that people can resist urges to harm others. I remember a teacher at school who very obviously formed attractions to the more beautiful boys in a class (we all saw it and knew it) but I know for a fact that he never abused any kids at the school. Similarly, but for a different perversion, the writer John Cowper Powys has described in great detail an obsession with extreme (and deadly) sadism but, needless to say, he never acted upon those urges.


I also believe (and have also read) that Britten had a moral compass, one borne of a different age as Partita has suggested. One often can't help a jaded cynicism and think the worst these days post Jackson (allegedly), and the Church (not allegedly).
I would even go so far as to suggest that whatever the deficiency or failings of Britten's persona, his work itself has an autonomy that transcends these concerns in a way not related to the issues we speak of.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ I sort of agree but the sexual abuse of children is a nasty crime and I do not think I would enjoy Britten's music as much as I do if I was convinced that he was guilty of it. This is partly because he was sufficiently educated and aware of the harm involved whereas Michael Jackson was probably too damaged to do so (not that I like his music). I do also think we should avoid jaded cynicism if we can.


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## Room2201974 (Jan 23, 2018)

I'm having none of it. There is no place on the chart for the Truly Wicked like Debussy and Grainger. Without the truly wicked option one does not have the bar set at the proper lowest mark. Besides, Wagner is clearly mislabeled. The Truly Wicked option would correct that mistake.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Minor Sixthist said:


> Disclaimer: OP, this might belong in the 'Off Topic' section, depending on what TC's conviction on memes is. They may not be allowed in the primary classical music discussions. I'm not sure myself.
> 
> Specifically for those a little older who are perhaps less exposed to the younger generations' general output of (oftentimes nonsense) material: this one is a meme. Following with the trend of much of our ironic joking these days, it takes some concept that used to have some level of seriousness, and replicates it ("memetically") with a new spin on the joke each time. This format just takes the 'character alignment' trope, and you could fill in whichever set of characters you want.
> 
> Again, not sure about TC's conviction on memes in the main forums. I'm leaning toward this should be moved.


Yes, the main forum is the wrong place. The problem isn't that it's a meme. The problem is that it's a really dumb, unfunny one.

.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Woodduck:
> It's sometimes tempting to read what we know of a composer's personality or behavior into his music. In Gesualdo's case it might be amusing to imagine his sometimes bizarre chromaticism, his harmonic nonsequiturs, as symptomatic of an unstable mind. But I don't think we should draw too clear a line between a person's art and his life.





flamencosketches said:


> Spoken like a true Wagnerian


What I've spoken like is simply someone who understands that human beings are compounded of multiple personalities which are expressed under different circumstances and often bear no resemblance to one another. The idea that an artist's work is an expression of his "essence" and that with proper understanding we can interpret his character through his work or his work through his biography (which, by the way, is also an interpretation) is only partly true when it's true at all.

I never, or rarely, think of what I've read about a composer when I listen to his music, which as far as I'm concerned might have been injected into his brain by space aliens one night while he slept.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Does chart and chaotic go together at all?


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

How could Bruckner be considered ‘lawfully evil’ when these classifications don’t exist in music in terms of the nature of the work? Who thinks of such a thing when hearing him? The ‘evil’ could only exist in the listener and that’s not being considered.


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## ManateeFL (Mar 9, 2017)

For those who are bothered by a composer's moral shortcomings when listening to their music, I guess there's an easy fix: don't read up on composer bios. Then you'll have no idea who the racists, misogynists and pedophiles were and be able to enjoy the music based on its own worth. 

Seeing humanity in all humans, even murderers and abusers, can be a eye opening practice. If one permits it to happen, great art demonstrates the existence of beauty within deep ugliness, persuading us to remember that all humans share the mystic and strange impulse to create art and make music, or to partake in it.


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## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

I make no apologies


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

_"One of the more unruly musicians was a bassoonist named Geyersbach. He was three years older than Bach and made a point of being offensive. One dark night he confronted Bach on the street and began hitting him with a stick and calling him a "dirty dog." Bach was not altogether blameless. He had poked fun of Geyersbach and called him a "nanny goat bassoonist." Not one to take a beating lightly, Bach drew his sword and the fight was on. Dodging the stick, Bach made several thrusts that pierced Geyersbach's jacket before passers-by rushed in to prevent bloodshed."_
https://www.wpr.org/bach-draws-his-sword

Does this sound like a "lawful good" individual to you?


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Gallus said:


> I make no apologies


Mahler can't be chaotic good, I would say chaotic neutral or chaotic evil. He tyranized his wife Alma and abandoned her in difficult situations etc.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

D Smith said:


> This is trivial, ridiculous and generally insulting to classical music. Moderators, could it be moved to the "Has Nothing to Do with Anything" catagory? Thanks.


You're lawfully boring man! ;-)


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