# For the German speakers...



## Sol Invictus (Sep 17, 2016)

So one of my new years resolutions is to learn German. At the same time, I've recently taken interest in Schubert's lieder in particular Winterreise. My question is of the German language has changed from Schubert's time to now in the same way English has changed in regards to any discrepancies in spelling or grammar?


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ah, my favorite topic has come up... no, two of my favorite topics 



Sol Invictus said:


> So one of my new years resolutions is to learn German.


That is an excellent resolution. Enjoy!



> At the same time, I've recently taken interest in Schubert's lieder in particular Winterreise.


As long as you supplement Schubert's lieder with more modern learning material, you will do well.



> My question is of the German language has changed from Schubert's time to now in the same way English has changed in regards to any discrepancies in spelling or grammar?


The spelling has hardly changed at all. The text of Winterreise is still perfectly understandable to any modern speaker or learner of German. As regards grammar, the relations between words and sentence building, there have been no fundamental changes either, but some minor ones that a learner should pay attention to. Take for example the first verse of the lied Rast:

_Nun merk' ich erst wie müd' ich bin,
Da ich zur Ruh' mich lege;
Das Wandern hielt mich munter hin
Auf unwirtbarem Wege. _

Now I first notice how tired I am
As I lay me to rest;
The wandering has kept me cheerful 
On the inhospitable road.

The apostrophes in the first two lines seem to be property exclusively of poetical German - shortening the words so as to fit them into the poetic metre. The usual words are "merke" - notice, "müde" - tired and "Ruhe" - rest. In the fourth line, the modern version would be "auf unwirtbarem Weg". The final "-e" is an example of obsolete grammar, not used nowadays. So, while some things have changed, these changes are not very significant and do not hinder understanding in any way.


----------



## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

SiegendesLicht, this is an extremely interesting post. How would you characterize the older German found in JS Bach's church cantatas? I appreciate your expertise in this area.

:tiphat:

Kind regards,

George


----------



## Guest (Jan 9, 2017)

I'm not a native German speaker, but spent 2 years in Southwestern Germany and Switzerland, and have a fairly good grasp. Grammatically, you aren't going to see much differences. The shortening of words SL refers to is common also in English poetry, where words may get clipped to fit the meter or the rhyme, or contractions used that wouldn't normally be found in prose or conversation.

More than likely, the biggest difference you will see between modern German and that of Bach or Schubert is simply the use of words that these days might be considered more arcane and not used as commonly in the 21st century. A simple German dictionary will help you through these areas - but just as an English speaker can read with relative ease the works of Charles Dickens, a good understanding of German will make Schubert's Lieder very accessible. For example, with my knowledge of German, as a native English speaker, I do very well with Schubert's Lieder, Bach's cantatas (although I have to, at times, look up a word here and there), and Mozart's Magic Flute.


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Thank you, George. I am not a native speaker of German either, by the way, just someone who has learned the language to a pretty good level (and has a certificate from Goethe-Institut to prove it) - simultaneously with learning to love German vocal music.

I pretty much agree with DrMike. If you have a good overall command of modern German, you will get through both Schubert and Bach without great difficulty, although Bach would probably require a greater amount of concentration while reading. The words and grammar are for the most part still the same. But I would not recommend trying to learn German using classical music texts as one's only source.

One other potential issue with understanding of Bach (not immediately related to the German) is that he uses a lot of biblical/theological metaphors. I think one should have some basic knowledge of the concepts of Christianity in order to properly understand passages like this one from BWV132:

_Christi Glieder, ach, bedenket,
Was der Heiland euch geschenket
Durch der Taufe reines Bad!
Bei der Blut- und Wasserquelle
Werden eure Kleider helle,
Die befleckt von Missetat._

Members of Christ, ah, consider
what the saviour has bestowed on you
Through the pure bath of baptism!
At the spring of blood and water
your garments become bright
that were stained by sin.


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2017)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Thank you, George. I am not a native speaker of German either, by the way, just someone who has learned the language to a pretty good level (and has a certificate from Goethe-Institut to prove it) - simultaneously with learning to love German vocal music.
> 
> I pretty much agree with DrMike. If you have a good overall command of modern German, you will get through both Schubert and Bach without great difficulty, although Bach would probably require a greater amount of concentration while reading. The words and grammar are for the most part still the same. But I would not recommend trying to learn German using classical music texts as one's only source.
> 
> ...


I am just wondering
befleckt von Missetat,is it possible to translate it with the word ,"misschief"? Are the words related ?
missetat - misschief,it is just a feeling but I could be totally wrong of course.:tiphat:


----------



## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

If you are looking for the most direct translation, it would probably be "misdeed" (Tat = deed). Mischief is probably also good, but not being a native English speaker either, I cannot say that 100% sure.


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2017)

Traverso said:


> I am just wondering
> befleckt von Missetat,is it possible to translate it with the word ,"misschief"? Are the words related ?
> missetat - misschief,it is just a feeling but I could be totally wrong of course.:tiphat:


Possibly in a different setting, but in this distinctly Christian passage, you aren't likely to read of "mischief" but more likely the proper translation would be "sin" or "misdeeds." That was likely the intention, if perhaps the word isn't the best to use in the situation - but that is likely also due to the use of a word that, while not perfect in the meaning, fits the poets need to match meter and rhyming pattern.


----------



## Guest (Jan 10, 2017)

DrMike said:


> Possibly in a different setting, but in this distinctly Christian passage, you aren't likely to read of "mischief" but more likely the proper translation would be "sin" or "misdeeds." That was likely the intention, if perhaps the word isn't the best to use in the situation - but that is likely also due to the use of a word that, while not perfect in the meaning, fits the poets need to match meter and rhyming pattern.


 I agree that misdeed is a better word for it
In the "dutch language it is "misdaad" The a in missetat sounds the same as in misdaad.
You are perfectly right to mention that there is more than only the meaning of the word.In this case poetry and its religious expression.

mein herze schwimmt in blut,perhaps better not to translate it.


----------

