# Guitar riffs as a basis for classical composition



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Wondering why "stealing" great guitar riffs wasn't done more frequently by classical composers, to use them as a basis for development of pieces of larger scale... like, for example (why not) symphonies .

After all, if Beethoven could turn a 4 note motif ta, ta, ta, TAAAAA into a huge symphony, why not use Smoke On The Water riff, for similar purposes? 

Rock music offers a bewildering amount of great and not so great riffs. They are typically distinct, recognizable, and for me it seems logical to at least experiment with using them LvB style.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

This could be useful here:


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

The reason for composers not stealing (errr...”borrowing”) guitar riffs from famous popular songs boils to an issue of legality. If a work has a note-for-note quotation from say Deep Purple’s “Smoke on the Water”, then the composer is held liable and will probably be sued because they didn’t receive permission to use the riff. That’s why, but also because it’s actually classical music that has influenced more rock music than the other way around. But that’s a topic for another thread.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Ask for permission then...
I'm certain rock bands would be happy to give it. It would after all just be a great confirmation of their quality and marketing boost. They get instant bragging rights... "Dude, they are using our riffs to make symphonies"


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

ZJovicic said:


> Ask for permission then...
> I'm certain rock bands would be happy to give it. It would after all just be a great confirmation of their quality and marketing boost. They get instant bragging rights... "Dude, they are using our riffs to make symphonies"


Easier said than done.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

Though I personally think the real reason is that riffs are simply not suitable for classical composition, because they are typically too showy, perhaps frivolous in some sense... they don't sound solemn and serious like ta, ta, ta, TAAAA...

But perhaps it's just me... I think I might be biased because I'm exposed to these riffs just in context of rock'n'roll, so I associate them with loud concerts and crazy nights.

If they could somehow be seen isolated from that context, maybe they could indeed prove to be interesting musical ideas worthy of further development. And perhaps, the very fact that their nature is quite different from the typical classical music material, could be a challenge for composers, which, if successfully passed could push them beyond their comfort zone and lead to very interesting and original results.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Your task, ZJovicic, is to write a major symphony using Black Sabbath's 'Hole in the Sky' as your inspiration. Let us know when youve finished it. :lol: :guitar:


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

When I earn first million, I might commission someone to do it... that's the only way I could do it, in theory, that is.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

ZJovicic said:


> Ask for permission then...
> I'm certain rock bands would be happy to give it.


Somehow Philip Glass got permission to use David Bowie's Heroes and Low for a symphony, so I guess it can be done.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> The reason for composers not stealing (errr..."borrowing") guitar riffs from famous popular songs boils to an issue of legality. If a work has a note-for-note quotation from say Deep Purple's "Smoke on the Water", then the composer is held liable and will probably be sued because they didn't receive permission to use the riff. That's why, but also because it's actually classical music that has influenced more rock music than the other way around. But that's a topic for another thread.


And don't forget the surviving members of Zeppelin spent years in court defending their ownership of Stairway, before finally prevailing. Simply defending a suit can ruin one financially, regardless of the outcome.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

I don't suspect Bela Bartok was ever sued for "borrowing" a theme from Shostakovich's Seventh Symphony for use in his own Concerto for Orchestra. Perhaps Bartok was well aware of the Shosty work, since it dates to the late 1920s, well before the Concerto for Orchestra was penned. And Bartok likely realized that Shostakovich himself was a "borrower", as can be witnessed by a listen to the Russian composer's "Tahiti Trot", which "borrows" the Vincent Youmans tune of "Two for Tea".

I've long contended that the famous opening riff of Iron Butterfly's classic "In-a-Gadda-da-Vida" is derived from a motif in Paul Hindemith's _Symphonia serena_. Which seems to suggest that if one were to use the Butterfly riff to write a symphony, we may just get a second version of the _Symphonia serena_!

I still recall the first time I ever heard the Beethoven Fifth Symphony. A motif in the first minute of the second movement reminded me then (and it still does, hearing it for the umpteenth hundredth time later!) of a passage from he Pat Boone classic "Tammy." In fact, one can even sing along with Boone while listening to the Beethoven Andante con moto: "Tammy. Tammy. Tammy's my love."











Which more or less confirms what Neo Romanza said above:



Neo Romanza said:


> The reason for composers not stealing (errr..."borrowing") guitar riffs from famous popular songs boils to … because it's actually classical music that has influenced more rock music than the other way around. But that's a topic for another thread.


And speaking of another thread:

It seems this same topic was the subject of an identical ZJovicic thread some time ago: Could you make a symphony out of a guitar riff?

So, what's going on here?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

ZJovicic said:


> Though I personally think the real reason is that riffs are simply not suitable for classical composition, because they are typically too showy, perhaps frivolous in some sense... they don't sound solemn and serious like ta, ta, ta, TAAAA...


recently I've watched a David Bruce video where he was talking about composers borrowing (or stealing) music from other composers of musicians, and one (Mark Anthony Turnage) basically used Single ladies of Beyoncè to build a composition.

14.39 in the video





I know it's not a guitar riff, but it's just to show that I don't thing composers have the problem to think that a motif or a riff can't be adapted and used creatively in a composition.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

SONNET CLV said:


> I don't suspect Bela Bartok was ever sued for "borrowing" a theme from Shostakovich's Seventh Symphony for use in his own Concerto for Orchestra. Perhaps Bartok was well aware of the Shosty work, since it dates to the late 1920s, well before the Concerto for Orchestra was penned. And Bartok likely realized that Shostakovich himself was a "borrower", as can be witnessed by a listen to the Russian composer's "Tahiti Trot", which "borrows" the Vincent Youmans tune of "Two for Tea".


Why do you give a date in the 1920s for the Leningrad symphony? Wasn't it written in 1941? But I think you are right that Bartok had heard the work as he is widely known to have loathed it. He probably quoted it for this reason.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra was composed 1943-1945.
Shosty's seventh was composed December 1941, and premiered in the USA in July 1942; it was played 62 times in the USA (where Bartok resided then) in the 1942–43 season.
Pretty obvious that Bartok had heard it.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

Regarding Bartok and the Shostakovich 7th, here are program notes about the Concerto for Orchestra from a Redlands Symphony concert:

"The following movement [Intermezzo interrotto] is a simple intermezzo with two alternating folk-like melodies. In the middle, however, there is a rude interruption which owes its existence to Bartók's dislike of Shostakovich, whom he believed to be overrated. According to Bartók's son, his father happened to hear a broadcast of the "Leningrad" Symphony while working on the intermezzo. He was moved to parody Shostakovich's work by inserting an interruption by a clarinet playing a march tune from the symphony. The clarinet is, in turn, greeted by jeers from the trombones, a repetition of the theme in the style of a German band, and a final parody by the tuba. Bartók then completed the movement as if the interruption had never taken place."


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> And speaking of another thread:
> 
> It seems this same topic was the subject of an identical ZJovicic thread some time ago: Could you make a symphony out of a guitar riff?
> 
> So, what's going on here?


heh... seems like I forgot about it... or perhaps the old thread hasn't resolved the main issue of suitability of riffs for further development. The funny thing is how certain ways of thinking, questions, topics, keep dwelling in our mind for so long.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Manxfeeder said:


> Somehow Philip Glass got permission to use David Bowie's Heroes and Low for a symphony, so I guess it can be done.


Don't forget Steve Reich's _Radio Rewrite_.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

This Bruckner scherzo is basically an awesome metal riff in disguise
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/bruckner/guides/bruckner-scherzo-awesome-metal-riff/


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## Daniarcron (7 mo ago)

The main reason (at least nowadays) why composers do not steal or borrow guitar riffs from other famous popular songs boils to an issue of legality. If a work has a note-for-note quotation from another song, the composer will be held liable for not respecting the author's rights. It usually ends with them being sued for using the riff and losing their reputation and money. With the accessories we have today (ironageaccessories.com), there are plenty of new riffs we can come up with. They might be similar, but they will sound different using the right accessories.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Daniarcron said:


> The main reason (at least nowadays) why composers do not steal or borrow guitar riffs from other famous popular songs boils to an issue of legality.



Good answer, are you composer yourself?
Welcome to the forum by the way.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Daniarcron said:


> The main reason (at least nowadays) why composers do not steal or borrow guitar riffs from other famous popular songs boils to an issue of legality.


Have a listen to John Zorn's Goddard/Spillane.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> I don't suspect Bela Bartok was ever sued for "borrowing" a theme from Shostakovich's Seventh Symphony for use in his own Concerto for Orchestra.


Of course not, because Shostakovich didn't write it. The theme is from an operetta by Lehar which Shostakovich was himself quoting satirically. But even if he had, the USSR wasn't party to international copyright conventions.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Why not? Composers historically have used popular folk songs from their native land's as material for their own compositions.


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