# Vienna New Year concert



## OldFashionedGirl (Jul 21, 2013)

What's your opinion about the Vienna New Year concert? Do you like that concert? I was listening to the concert from past year for a while, and have find the repertoire too sugary for my taste. And the prices for attend to the concert are too high. It's not surprising that classical music is considered elitist, with those prices .


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Well, a concert like that is inevitably going to cost a fortune due to demand. The music isn't really my cup of tea either. 

I am generally not crazy about his Classical music comes across as broadcast by PBS television in the US. Live from Lincoln Center has better music but similar stuffiness.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

Prices to attend the concert? I thought tickets to the New Year's Day concert in Vienna were handed down through families, and not generally available to the great unwashed to actually buy.
GG


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

They basically play the same waltzes polkas and marches every year. The VPO can play this stuff in their sleep. The only concert worth listening to was with Carlos Kleiber about 20 years ago.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I think that some of those audiences are old enough to have met Radetzky.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

My opinion is that the VPO should be boycotted, for obvious reasons. I don't listen to them under any circumstances.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

GraemeG said:


> Prices to attend the concert? I thought tickets to the New Year's Day concert in Vienna were handed down through families, and not generally available to the great unwashed to actually buy.
> GG


When I was checking two (or three) years ago, there was a subscription and those who subscribed took part in a lottery. The winners of the lottery were given the possibility to buy the ticket.

As for the event, I think it's more about celebarating in Viennese tradition, not enjoying the concert as typical classical music performance.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> My opinion is that the VPO should be boycotted, for obvious reasons. I don't listen to them under any circumstances.


Obvious reasons? To you, maybe. Perhaps you'd elaborate?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Unfortunately I missed this year's concert, but I enjoyed the one last year. Maybe it's not really high-brow music, but it is quite enjoyable to watch and listen to. And I love the Radetzky-Marsch 

As for the VPO, after reading about all the scandals surrounding it, I've made a point of preferring the VPO recordings over others in the future, when choosing classical CDs (considering all other factors of course). At least I will do my little bit to support those high-class musicians.


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## altom (Dec 13, 2013)

Radetzky March was written in honour of Field Marshal Joseph Radetzky von Radetz immediately after a victory on the piedmontese (italian to be) army in Custoza (not far away from Milan) in 1848. The battle was a real human slaughter, but Italian forgot about that and are ready to pay big sums to hear it at the New Year concert... Music win over history? 
Nonetheless, I fully agree with hpowders, but no doubt Barenboim not directing Radetzky March but wandering around buffeting musician, was fun.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

Amusing to watch Barenboim struggle to squeeze between the instruments while the orchestra carried on playing. Pleasant background music while peeling sprouts for NY Day meal, but hadn't realised that the programme would be nowt but waltzes and polkas - began to pall after a while.


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## CyrilWashbrook (Feb 6, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Obvious reasons? To you, maybe. Perhaps you'd elaborate?


At a guess, institutional sexism and racism.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Obvious reasons? To you, maybe. Perhaps you'd elaborate?


You mean besides the racism and sexism? How about the fact that they have just gotten around to removing Nazi war criminals from their roll of honored supporters, including one who might have been an accessory to the murder of the orchestra's own players? See this thread:

http://www.talkclassical.com/29640-vienna-phil-enters-atonement.html


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

Don't particularly care for the repertoire. Kind of like watching a high class version of Andre Rieu.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> You mean besides the racism and sexism?


It's hardly 'obvious' that the VPO operates racist and sexist policies. Have you some evidence for your allegations?



EdwardBast said:


> How about the fact that they have just gotten around to removing Nazi war criminals from their roll of honored supporters


So, they've got round to doing it. That's a reason for boycotting them?


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

hpowders said:


> They basically play the same waltzes polkas and marches every year.


Not only them …


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> It's hardly 'obvious' that the VPO operates racist and sexist policies. Have you some evidence for your allegations?
> 
> So, they've got round to doing it. That's a reason for boycotting them?


The evidence is documented in numerous published sources just a google away for anyone who cares. You can probably think of the keywords yourself.

It is a reason if the same sort of racism at the root of the wartime embarrassments is an ongoing institutional value.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> It is a reason if the same sort of racism at the root of the wartime embarrassments is an ongoing institutional value.


I think you're confused. Ongoing racism - if it is there - may be a reason for boycotting the orchestra. Taking steps to remove honours for those found guilty of racism in the past is not.

I'm always slightly suspicious of people who make allegations, but seem unwilling to offer any of the evidence they's seen themselves, or point to sources of evidence. Presumably, you have some knowledge that you could share - articles you've read, websites you've visited - thus giving some weight to what you assert?

If I were to claim that there is evidence that the London Symphony Orchestra is sexist, but declined to offer any evidence, or even any source of evidence, I think you'd be somewhat sceptical, wouldn't you?

How many orchestras do you boycott?


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## Clayton (Nov 10, 2013)

I don't know anything about the politics or any wrong doing but I think the concert is great fun and I enjoyed this year as much as previous. I also liked the punk chic costumes by VW. I shall _again_ be entering the lottery for next year!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

You mean besides the racism and sexism? How about the fact that they have just gotten around to removing Nazi war criminals from their roll of honored supporters, including one who might have been an accessory to the murder of the orchestra's own players?

And what does that have to do with the merits of their musicianship... which is why I listen to any orchestra?


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

But I want to hear the Radetzky March, and the overture to _Die Fledermaus _ and if you can give me the Tritsch-Tratsch-Polka I will be pleased.

Not hearing them would be like going to The Last Night of the Proms and not hearing the Fantasia on British Sea Songs or Rule, Britannia! or Jerusalem.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Fortinbras Armstrong said:


> and if you can give me the Tritsch-Tratsch-Polka I will be pleased.


Here you go, 5:55 :


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> I'm always slightly suspicious of people who make allegations, but seem unwilling to offer any of the evidence they's seen themselves, or point to sources of evidence. Presumably, you have some knowledge that you could share - articles you've read, websites you've visited - thus giving some weight to what you assert?


Hiring policy explicitly excluded women until 1997. Since then have added two in 30 or 40 auditions. No non whites.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> You mean besides the racism and sexism? How about the fact that they have just gotten around to removing Nazi war criminals from their roll of honored supporters, including one who might have been an accessory to the murder of the orchestra's own players?
> 
> And what does that have to do with the merits of their musicianship... which is why I listen to any orchestra?


Who said it had anything to do with the merits of their musicianship? Musical merit is why anyone listens to any orchestra (one hopes). There are plenty of great orchestras willing to hire nonwhites and more willing to hire women. I prefer to listen to them. It has to do with my personal unwillingness to encourage racism and sexism. The bus system in Montgomery Alabama in the 1950s might have been wonderfully efficient. Nevertheless, many thought a boycott was a good idea. It is a moral issue. Does this really need to be explained?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Not that a one-man "boycott" is going to hurt the VPO any...


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## Jokke (Dec 28, 2013)

One of the only ladies in the VPO is the Belgian harpist Anneleen Lenaerts.
She passed the very strict blind auditions of the VPO to get hired.

She's very (and pretty) good.

http://www.anneleenlenaerts.com/


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

MacLeod said:


> Obvious reasons? To you, maybe. Perhaps you'd elaborate?


We're back to the Nazi thing again !!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Not that a one-man "boycott" is going to hurt the VPO any...


Which is why I would encourage others to join me. Boycott the VPO!!!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

They always hired female harpists. One sort of has to . . .


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## Clayton (Nov 10, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Not that a one-man "boycott" is going to hurt the VPO any...


Well, I for one am not going...

Err..

'ang on...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

EdwardBast said:


> The evidence is documented in numerous published sources just a google away for anyone who cares. You can probably think of the keywords yourself.
> 
> It is a reason if the same sort of racism at the root of the wartime embarrassments is an ongoing institutional value.


We've just been through all this ad nauseum--how can you have missed it ?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> What's your opinion about the Vienna New Year concert? Do you like that concert? I was listening to the concert from past year for a while, and have find the repertoire too sugary for my taste. And the prices for attend to the concert are too high. It's not surprising that classical music is considered elitist, with those prices .


Too sugary--what did you expect Schoenberg ? This is Johann Strauss and his contemporaries, can it be that you are not aware of this. If you are perhaps you would explain the point of your post.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Which is why I would encourage others to join me. Boycott the VPO!!!


As I have written earlier in this thread, I will rather go and buy some more CDs of music performed by the VPO instead. Classical music is by far not as popular in the world as pop, rock or other genres, and boycotting one of the finest classical orchestras in the world for such petty reasons, having nothing to do with music, seems pretty pathetic to me, honestly.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> Hiring policy explicitly excluded women until 1997.


That was then...



EdwardBast said:


> It has to do with my personal unwillingness to encourage racism and sexism. The bus system in Montgomery Alabama in the 1950s might have been wonderfully efficient. Nevertheless, many thought a boycott was a good idea. It is a moral issue. Does this really need to be explained?


No, not any longer. You have made your position clear and provided some evidence. I've searched the internet, as you suggested, and have also found evidence that the VPO is slow (possibly reluctant) to address the very obvious gender imbalance. The allegations of racism are less easy to substantiate, and the nazism even less so, given the passage of time.

But whether any of this justifies a boycott is another matter. You also didn't answer my last question: how many orchestras are you willing to boycott? If there is evidence that the LSO's gender balance is much less than 50:50 (as it was in 2003, for example) http://www.theguardian.com/music/2003/jan/17/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures what action would you take?


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## Jokke (Dec 28, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> They always hired female harpists. One sort of has to . . .


This is certainly not correct.

More you can find about the controversies with VPO here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Philharmonic


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> As I have written earlier in this thread, I will rather go and buy some more CDs of music performed by the VPO instead. Classical music is by far not as popular in the world as pop, rock or other genres, and boycotting one of the finest classical orchestras in the world for such petty reasons, having nothing to do with music, seems pretty pathetic to me, honestly.


Racism and sexism are not petty concerns to everyone. They tend to matter to the excluded races and sex, for example. And to others who find racism and sexism distasteful on moral grounds.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> That was then...
> 
> But whether any of this justifies a boycott is another matter. You also didn't answer my last question: how many orchestras are you willing to boycott? If there is evidence that the LSO's gender balance is much less than 50:50 (as it was in 2003, for example) http://www.theguardian.com/music/2003/jan/17/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures what action would you take?


Sorry. Missed that question.

Don't really have an upper limit on how many I might be willing to boycott  An imbalance by itself, especially if the audition procedures are truly blind, as they are in many American orchestras, would not be enough for me. In the case of an orchestra whose imbalance is the direct consequence of an explicit exclusion policy, the choice is easy - for me.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Racism and sexism are not petty concerns to everyone. They tend to matter to the excluded races and sex, for example. And to others who find racism and sexism distasteful on moral grounds.


I, for one, am a woman, and I don't care how many women they hire or if they hire any at all - as long as they maintain their standard of quality and record actively. If I were an Asian woman musician, auditioned for the VPO and they did not take me, I would find another orchestra to play in (it's not like women or non-whites are totally excluded from musical life), not try to get revenge using the race/sex card. Sorry, but this attack on our cultural institutions with the help of this race/sex card is not getting any compassion from me.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> The allegations of racism are less easy to substantiate, and the nazism even less so, given the passage of time.


Recent news stories (AP and other sources) list the names of the Nazi war criminals along with their crimes and sentences. They were documented in 1946-7 when these VPO patrons were convicted. The links are in the other thread and still active.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I, for one, am a woman, and I don't care how many women they hire or if they hire any at all - as long as they maintain their standard of quality and record actively. If I were an Asian woman musician, auditioned for the VPO and they did not take me, I would find another orchestra to play in (it's not like women or non-whites are totally excluded from musical life), not try to get revenge using the race/sex card. Sorry, but this attack on our cultural institutions with the help of this race/sex card is not getting any compassion from me.


Many in the United States a half century ago thought it was fine to exclude African Americans from certain institutions of higher learning since those excluded could be accepted at other institutions. Would this policy bother you? Many believe that the moral status of an action should be decided based on whether it is viable as a general standard of behavior. For example, would it be okay if all orchestras explicitly excluded women and Asians? Of course not. If it is not acceptable in general, then it is not acceptable in specific cases. This is a basic principle of ethics in modern western civilization. Get with the program.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Barenboim did an excellent job! He included crucial waltzes b Strauss, Lanner, and one of R. Strauss' Cappriccio waltzes...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I believe the top tier US orchestras conduct auditions behind a screen. They pick the best musicians irrespective of race or gender; the way it should be.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> This is a basic principle of ethics in modern western civilization. Get with the program.


You are perfectly free to lecture on the ethics in modern Western civilization... while I go listen to music produced within this same civilization (not quite modern though) and beautifully performed by the VPO. And I'll make sure my next classical purchase is something of their output.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Barenboim did an excellent job! He included crucial waltzes b Strauss, Lanner, and one of R. Strauss' Cappriccio waltzes...


And he's Jewish you know.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

moody said:


> Too sugary--what did you expect Schoenberg ? This is Johann Strauss and his contemporaries, can it be that you are not aware of this. If you are perhaps you would explain the point of your post.


Could have both at once!


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> You are perfectly free to lecture on the ethics in modern Western civilization... while I go listen to music produced within this same civilization (not quite modern though) and beautifully performed by the VPO. And I'll make sure my next classical purchase is something of their output.


That is certainly all right. But refusing to support economically an institution with such a discriminatory tradition is not a position to ridicule.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Hit it boys: (No girls or Asians please!)

I'm dreaming of a white new year
Just like the ones I used to know
Where swastikas glisten and children listen
For the crunch of jackboots in the snow

I'm dreaming of a white new year
With every march and waltz I write
May your days be Aryan bright
And may all your orchestras be white

(Satire alert — see posts above.)


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

I’d agree that the Wiener Philharmoniker are late investigating their Nazi past, reflecting it. None of the current members (including management) carry any personal guilt, but a heritage worth considering. They are prominent, a visiting card for the city of Vienna and the state of Austria – they all together should find appropriate ways documenting and acknowledging their history. Obviously there are processes ongoing, possibly not with sufficiently satisfactory public results yet, but I acknowledge the honest effort.

Regarding the procedures hiring their members – yes, they’ve opened for female members only in 1997, which is exceptional. But today they audition possible members behind a screen, as it is standard for most world-class orchestras. Unless we want to assume any further conspiracies, they’re doing the best they can trying to hire the best possible artists, regardless of their gender or ethnicity.

One of the strengths of really good orchestras is their autonomy. The Wiener Philharmoniker are one of the finest orchestras on this planet. That’s not so easy to bring back. They seem aware that they have to catch up on some regards. There are legitimate issues, but no boycotts are justified. Let’s not destroy them for the sake of misunderstood political correctness alone.


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## Yardrax (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't hate it. My Nan, my Aunt and my Mum all love that sort of thing. While watching this years concert on BBC 2 I noticed a bust of Brahms in the room with two of the dancers, and I couldn't help but think 'Man, I'd much rather be listening to Brahms right now.'

I imagine if I was a lot younger, it would be the kind of thing that put me off listening to classical music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Well, Daniel Barenboim conducted the VPO as did Leonard Bernstein, who made many fine recordings with it and seemed to have a wonderful relationship with this orchestra.

Both Jewish.

Something they knew that some of you don't or vice versa?

The past is the past but folks have evolved and moved on.


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## GiulioCesare (Apr 9, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Well, Daniel Barenboim conducted the VPO as did Leonard Bernstein, who made many fine recordings with it and seemed to have a wonderful relationship with this orchestra.
> 
> Both Jewish.
> 
> ...


Funny you mention two guest conductors, but not the first Jewish resident conductor of the VPO, another conductor-composer of worldwide fame.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

GiulioCesare said:


> Funny you mention two guest conductors, but not the first Jewish resident conductor of the VPO, another conductor-composer of worldwide fame.


The first resident conductor of the Vienna Philharmonic of Jewish descent, would be Felix Otto Dessoff (1835-1892), right? "Worldwide fame", if you say so?

But I may be wrong ...


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Who said it had anything to do with the merits of their musicianship? Musical merit is why anyone listens to any orchestra (one hopes). There are plenty of great orchestras willing to hire nonwhites and more willing to hire women. I prefer to listen to them.

It seems here that you immediately contradict yourself. You declare that you listen to any orchestra based upon musical merit... and then turn about and go on about gender/racial quotas, etc...

It has to do with my personal unwillingness to encourage racism and sexism. The bus system in Montgomery Alabama in the 1950s might have been wonderfully efficient. Nevertheless, many thought a boycott was a good idea. It is a moral issue. Does this really need to be explained?

No... it has to do with passing yourself off as holier than thou. If you simply were put off by the fact that an Austrian orchestra employs mostly white musicians and few women you would simply not listen to them... not make a political issue of it. Get a life.

Personally, I love the all-male vocal group, Chanticleer, the mostly Japanese orchestra, Bach Collegium Japan led by their Japanese director, Masaaki Suzuki, and I love the all girl group, the Anonymous Four. I listen to all of them for their musicianship regardless of how many Native Americans, dwarfs, or albinos they employ... or not.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

As I have written earlier in this thread, I will rather go and buy some more CDs of music performed by the VPO instead. Classical music is by far not as popular in the world as pop, rock or other genres, and boycotting one of the finest classical orchestras in the world for such petty reasons, having nothing to do with music, seems pretty pathetic to me, honestly.

I'm with you, Siegendeslicht... let's see if there are any VPO recordings on my wish list...

Hmmm... maybe that Beethoven set with Bernstein... a gay Jew. :devil:


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> Recent news stories (AP and other sources) list the names of the Nazi war criminals along with their crimes and sentences. They were documented in 1946-7 when these VPO patrons were convicted. The links are in the other thread and still active.


Yes...and...the relevance of this to today's VPO membership?

Given the number of orchestras in the world, the chances of my making a significant contribution to the well-being of the VPO through purchasing any of their recordings is very slim. (I think I've got one - almost certainly the same one that many TCers have got). Since my chances of getting to see them, except on the odd occasion on TV, are slim, I'm not going to be funding their live performances either. So a personal boycott, even if justified, would not mean a great deal.

And then we come back to the same question that many before (and many to come) will debate: to what extent (and how) can we, should we express dissatisfaction with the questionable morals and behaviours of artists whose work we might admire and enjoy? Do we compromise our own moral standards by not making a stand? And can we lead a compromise-free life when there is so much for us to take a stand about?

I think the VPOs past is regrettable, and their present practice may be behind the times, but it's not something I'm intending to get exercised about. I've got other fish to fry.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Who said it had anything to do with the merits of their musicianship? Musical merit is why anyone listens to any orchestra (one hopes). There are plenty of great orchestras willing to hire nonwhites and more willing to hire women. I prefer to listen to them.
> 
> It seems here that you immediately contradict yourself. You declare that you listen to any orchestra based upon musical merit... and then turn about and go on about gender/racial quotas, etc...


Faulty logic on your part. The reason I listen to any orchestra is musical merit. The reason I don't listen to the VPO is racism, sexism, etc. There is no contradiction. I did not say, for example, that I listen to any orchestra that plays well whether or not they are racists.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> It has to do with my personal unwillingness to encourage racism and sexism. The bus system in Montgomery Alabama in the 1950s might have been wonderfully efficient. Nevertheless, many thought a boycott was a good idea. It is a moral issue. Does this really need to be explained?
> 
> No... it has to do with passing yourself off as holier than thou. If you simply were put off by the fact that an Austrian orchestra employs mostly white musicians and few women you would simply not listen to them... not make a political issue of it. Get a life.


Reading comprehension problem on your part. I am not simply put off by their hiring policies. I am put off by the fact that it is part of a tradition of racism which they were not bright enough to put behind them sometime around 1950. I am put off by the fact that they had Nazi war criminals who may have been accessories to the murder of their own purged Jewish musicians among their honored supporters until last week. Do you really find it so implausible that someone might be irked by this sort of thing and want to say so?



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Personally, I love the all-male vocal group, Chanticleer, the mostly Japanese orchestra, Bach Collegium Japan led by their Japanese director, Masaaki Suzuki, and I love the all girl group, the Anonymous Four. I listen to all of them for their musicianship regardless of how many Native Americans, dwarfs, or albinos they employ... or not.


How very broad minded of you!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> Yes...and...the relevance of this to today's VPO membership?
> 
> Given the number of orchestras in the world, the chances of my making a significant contribution to the well-being of the VPO through purchasing any of their recordings is very slim. (I think I've got one - almost certainly the same one that many TCers have got). Since my chances of getting to see them, except on the odd occasion on TV, are slim, I'm not going to be funding their live performances either. So a personal boycott, even if justified, would not mean a great deal.
> 
> ...


Everyone makes their own decisions about how they express their "dissatisfaction with the questionable morals and behaviours of artists whose work we might admire and enjoy?" I wouldn't hold your decision against you. It is very hard to lead a compromise-free life and different people will find different issues worth addressing.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> As I have written earlier in this thread, I will rather go and buy some more CDs of music performed by the VPO instead. Classical music is by far not as popular in the world as pop, rock or other genres, and boycotting one of the finest classical orchestras in the world for such petty reasons, having nothing to do with music, seems pretty pathetic to me, honestly.
> 
> I'm with you, Siegendeslicht... let's see if there are any VPO recordings on my wish list...
> 
> Hmmm... maybe that Beethoven set with Bernstein... *a gay Jew.* :devil:


Bisexual would be more like it. He was married to Felicia Montealegre for quite a while and they had 3 children.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> If I were an Asian woman musician, auditioned for the VPO and they did not take me, I would find another orchestra to play in


http://www.talkclassical.com/27228-jasmine-chois-contract-not.html

One Asian woman musician who was hired but her contract not renewed after one year (2013). She is now a soloist and not affiliated with an orchestra. Her latest recording features the principal strings of the Vienna Philharmonic.


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

I watched about two-thirds of my pvr'd version, before nodding off. I may finish the remainder tonight at bedtime. 

Barenboim looked like he had a cold, keeping a handkerchief at the ready throughout.

I liked the R. Strauss piece, and the kinda kinky dancing segment. :tiphat:


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

For those who haven't yet OD'd on waltzes, here's six hours worth for 99 cents. Willie Boskowsky and so forth. Really quite good.

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Waltz-Box...=dmusic&ie=UTF8&sr=1-1&keywords=big+waltz+box


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

"Zubin Mehta to Conduct 2015 Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Concert"His 5th time...groan.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Vaneyes said:


> "Zubin Mehta to Conduct 2015 Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Concert"His 5th time...groan.


They should get Gustavo Dudamel :tiphat:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Vaneyes said:


> "Zubin Mehta to Conduct 2015 Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Concert"His 5th time...groan.


I most certainly feel your pain. Has there ever been a more over-rated conductor than Zubin Mehta???


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## CyrilWashbrook (Feb 6, 2013)

My two cents on the "boycott" question. As a member of a racial minority, I find it impossible to watch the Wiener Philharmoniker without noticing the lack of (racial and gender) diversity in its ranks. And while it's only in the last couple of years that I've taken a real interest in classical music, even I'm well aware of its history - and not just in the distant past, as some would have it - of exclusion.

In the same way that a tertiary institution like Bob Jones University didn't suddenly become an upstanding institution by ending its ban on interracial dating in 2000 due to media pressure, I don't think that 1997 is so long ago as to make the Wiener Philharmoniker's gender homogeneity a distant memory: having something like six women out of an orchestra of well over a hundred members makes sure of that. And I can't help but wonder why on the rare occasion that a non-white member has been hired, they haven't made it beyond a year yet have excelled at prestigious orchestras elsewhere. (I say "rare occasion", but as far as I can recall from my past skimming of the topic, there has only been "one occasion".)

For my part, I don't shun my Giulini/WP recordings of the Bruckner 8 and 9 because of this, but I can certainly respect somebody's personal decision not to support the institution. It is far from groundless and I see nothing wrong with making it a "moral" or "political" issue.



Vaneyes said:


> "Zubin Mehta to Conduct 2015 Vienna Philharmonic New Year's Concert"His 5th time...groan.


As Miss Sophie would say, it's "the same procedure as every year". I'm fairly sure that concern for sensibilities of the audience is the only reason why they aren't still propping Clemens Krauss' coffin out in front of the orchestra. 

Returning to the question that started this thread, I do switch on to watch, but most of the repertoire isn't really my kind of thing. I usually do something else in the meantime, with an ear open for any interesting additions to the programme.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Faulty logic on your part. The reason I listen to any orchestra is musical merit. The reason I don't listen to the VPO is racism, sexism, etc. There is no contradiction. I did not say, for example, that I listen to any orchestra that plays well whether or not they are racists.

I listen to the finest composers and musicians whether they were murderers (Gesualdo), pedophiles (Britten?), necrophiliacs (Bruckner), ruthless monopolists (Lully), antisemitic (Wagner, Liszt... and likely nearly ever composer before Beethoven's time), or simply not-nice individuals. The thing is, I am able to separate the art from the artist. I don't value Van Gogh or Michelangelo because of their emotional/mental issues. I value them for their art. I value the Vienna Philharmonic... and Richard Strauss... and Richard Wagner... and Herbert von Karajan... for the music they created.

Reading comprehension problem on your part.

Verges upon person insult, does it not. But then such is the first resort of the... well, I'll leave that for you to figure out.

I am not simply put off by their hiring policies. I am put off by the fact that it is part of a tradition of racism which they were not bright enough to put behind them sometime around 1950. I am put off by the fact that they had Nazi war criminals who may have been accessories to the murder of their own purged Jewish musicians among their honored supporters until last week. Do you really find it so implausible that someone might be irked by this sort of thing and want to say so?

And you can't fathom that others couldn't care less... that you are attempting to make the proverbial mountain out of a molehill... that art is ever linked with wealth and power... and in most instances those with wealth and power have blood on their hands.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Most of those folks from back in the Nazi days are now dead. How long must this go on? Sins of the fathers must be bestowed on the children?


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I make a tradition of it to catch the Blue Danube every year. Just that one. I still like it since I listen to it only once a year.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

CyrilWashbrook said:


> My two cents on the "boycott" question. As a member of a racial minority, I find it impossible to watch the Wiener Philharmoniker without noticing the lack of (racial and gender) diversity in its ranks. And while it's only in the last couple of years that I've taken a real interest in classical music, even I'm well aware of its history - and not just in the distant past, as some would have it - of exclusion.
> 
> In the same way that a tertiary institution like Bob Jones University didn't suddenly become an upstanding institution by ending its ban on interracial dating in 2000 due to media pressure, I don't think that 1997 is so long ago as to make the Wiener Philharmoniker's gender homogeneity a distant memory: having something like six women out of an orchestra of well over a hundred members makes sure of that. And I can't help but wonder why on the rare occasion that a non-white member has been hired, they haven't made it beyond a year yet have excelled at prestigious orchestras elsewhere. (I say "rare occasion", but as far as I can recall from my past skimming of the topic, there has only been "one occasion".)
> 
> ...


Clemens Krauss--now there was a rabid Nazi and so was his wife.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> Don't really have an upper limit on how many I might be willing to boycott  An imbalance by itself, especially if the audition procedures are truly blind, as they are in many American orchestras, would not be enough for me. In the case of an orchestra whose imbalance is the direct consequence of an explicit exclusion policy, the choice is easy - for me.


So, do you check out the gender balance or past history of an orchestra before patronising it?



EdwardBast said:


> Hit it boys: (No girls or Asians please!)
> 
> I'm dreaming of a white new year
> Just like the ones I used to know
> ...


KenOC acknowledged that 'rage' wasn't quite the right term to describe the attitude in your posts. But this post in particular shows that your claim to a sober and logical assessment of the VPO's shortcomings is rather wide of the mark.



EdwardBast said:


> Everyone makes their own decisions about how they express their "dissatisfaction with the questionable morals and behaviours of artists whose work we might admire and enjoy?" I wouldn't hold your decision against you. It is very hard to lead a compromise-free life and different people will find different issues worth addressing.


And I'll not hold your decision against you, provided that your decision does not lead you to campaign unfairly against the VPO.

I will, however, think twice before buying another VPO CD on the grounds that it seems to be struggling to justify its gender imbalance.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Look. Wilhelm Furtwangler was Hitler's favorite conductor. Does that mean I should deprive myself of his terrific performance of the Brahms first symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic? One has to divorce oneself from politics and just listen to the music.

I shouldn't drive a BMW or Porsche because they are German cars, almost 70 years after the fact?

One must not forget the past, but one can also move on.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

A nationalistic event/celebration, nothing more. Unfortunately, the media coverage can induce the general people to think that this is all that classical music has to offer. 
And that's a real shame.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Not enough "serious" music concerts on PBS, although to their credit they do show quite a few performances from the Metropolitan Opera over a season.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

hpowders said:


> I shouldn't drive a BMW or Porsche because they are German cars, almost 70 years after the fact?


German history does not consist of this single fact, you know?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Faulty logic on your part. The reason I listen to any orchestra is musical merit. The reason I don't listen to the VPO is racism, sexism, etc. There is no contradiction. I did not say, for example, that I listen to any orchestra that plays well whether or not they are racists.
> 
> I listen to the finest composers and musicians whether they were murderers (Gesualdo), pedophiles (Britten?), necrophiliacs (Bruckner), ruthless monopolists (Lully), antisemitic (Wagner, Liszt... and likely nearly ever composer before Beethoven's time), or simply not-nice individuals. The thing is, I am able to separate the art from the artist. I don't value Van Gogh or Michelangelo because of their emotional/mental issues. I value them for their art. I value the Vienna Philharmonic... and Richard Strauss... and Richard Wagner... and Herbert von Karajan... for the music they created.


Well, the being dead, in some cases for centuries, sure takes the edge off! Lets see - not really a Bruckner fan and Wagner has always repulsed me a bit. Lully? - snore. But I do like Britten and a few things by Strauss. Yeah, being dead helps.



StlukesguildOhio said:


> Reading comprehension problem on your part.
> 
> Verges upon person insult, does it not. But then such is the first resort of the... well, I'll leave that for you to figure out.


Your comment "Get a life," was _definitely_ insulting, as is what you just wrote above. Which means I win the congeniality contest for not escalating. And it means that your words above apply to you and only verge on applying to me, right? 



StlukesguildOhio said:


> I am not simply put off by their hiring policies. I am put off by the fact that it is part of a tradition of racism which they were not bright enough to put behind them sometime around 1950. I am put off by the fact that they had Nazi war criminals who may have been accessories to the murder of their own purged Jewish musicians among their honored supporters until last week. Do you really find it so implausible that someone might be irked by this sort of thing and want to say so?
> 
> And you can't fathom that others couldn't care less... that you are attempting to make the proverbial mountain out of a molehill... that art is ever linked with wealth and power... and in most instances those with wealth and power have blood on their hands.


It is perfectly obvious that others couldn't care less. No failure to fathom. And, I wasn't trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I made the mistake of writing one sentence and then kept getting prodded for clarification of my views. Which I provided, politely I thought. This seemed to get several people upset, even to the point of personal insult (you, for example). And it went on from there. I will accept the blame for having written that first sentence. And the White Christmas satire. I'll try to avoid such little provocations in the future. But it isn't absolutely necessary to poke the badger, is it?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Look. Wilhelm Furtwangler was Hitler's favorite conductor. Does that mean I should deprive myself of his terrific performance of the Brahms first symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic? One has to divorce oneself from politics and just listen to the music.
> 
> I shouldn't drive a BMW or Porsche because they are German cars, almost 70 years after the fact?
> 
> One must not forget the past, but one can also move on.


Furtwaengler and Hitler had huge rows and Furtwaengler was no Nazi.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> German history does not consist of this single fact, you know?


Of course. There was also Martin Luther, way back when. One must not forget, but IMO it is time to move on.
Why should anyone deprive oneself of brilliant music making, automobiles, cafe mit schlag, etc; ?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> German history does not consist of this single fact, you know?


Well, it sort of does:

_They wanted to conquer the world and it didn't work._

Fits perfectly to almost any time period you can possibly think of and only details change. Germany, one could say, it like the Coyote from the _Wile E. Coyote and The Road Runner_ cartoon with their European neighbourhood being the Road Runner, the following centuries are like episodes of that cartoon.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> So, do you check out the gender balance or past history of an orchestra before patronising it?


You know, it's never come up except in this case. I imagine if I saw an orchestra with such an extreme imbalance in this day and age I would probably notice and make inquiries.



MacLeod said:


> KenOC acknowledged that 'rage' wasn't quite the right term to describe the attitude in your posts. But this post in particular shows that your claim to a sober and logical assessment of the VPO's shortcomings is rather wide of the mark.


Oh, come on! Special dispensation for satire, right? "Rage wasn't quite the right term?" It wasn't even close. It was pure glee writing that! The only valid critique, IMO, would be that it wasn't funny. You didn't find it just a little funny?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Look. Wilhelm Furtwangler was Hitler's favorite conductor. Does that mean I should deprive myself of his terrific performance of the Brahms first symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic? One has to divorce oneself from politics and just listen to the music.


Unless it embarrasses you to like the same conductors as Hitler, I see no reason you shouldn't revel in Furtwangler's performance. Strange question, by the way.



hpowders said:


> I shouldn't drive a BMW or Porsche because they are German cars, almost 70 years after the fact?
> 
> One must not forget the past, but one can also move on.


Good idea. I will jump in my (imaginary) BMW right now and move on.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Aramis said:


> Well, it sort of does:
> 
> _They wanted to conquer the world and it didn't work._
> 
> Fits perfectly to almost any time period you can possibly think of and only details change. Germany, one could say, it like the Coyote from the _Wile E. Coyote and The Road Runner_ cartoon with their European neighbourhood being the Road Runner, the following centuries are like episodes of that cartoon.


Thank you Aramis!!! Not because I necessarily agree. But because now they'll have someone else to be pissed-off at.


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## Chris (Jun 1, 2010)

If you want proof of the VPO's continuing discriminatory policies just watch them in a performance of, say, a Beethoven symphony. The triangle player is forced to sit in silence through long sections of the work, only being allowed to participate in token short passages. A clear manifestation of exclusion and victimisation. And don't even start me on the Chinese block player...


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## Fortinbras Armstrong (Dec 29, 2013)

Sorry, Aramis, but the overture to _Nabucco_, which I do like, is not the Tritsch-Tratsch-Polka. Here it is from the 2012 Vienna New Years Concert


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

I've also noted they only seem to play music by white men as well!!!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> You know, it's never come up except in this case. I imagine if I saw an orchestra with such an extreme imbalance in this day and age I would probably notice and make inquiries.


So, you didn't pursue my references to the LSO?



EdwardBast said:


> Oh, come on! Special dispensation for satire, right? "Rage wasn't quite the right term?" It wasn't even close. It was pure glee writing that! The only valid critique, IMO, would be that it wasn't funny. You didn't find it just a little funny?


No, not in the slightest.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

MacLeod said:


> So, you didn't pursue my references to the LSO?


Oh no you don't! If you want to heap slander on the LSO you're just going to have to do it yourself. I've learned my lesson.



MacLeod said:


> No, not in the slightest.


It helps if you sing it, especially if you can sing it like Louis Armstrong did.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I didn't catch any of the New Year's concerts this year, but in general I enjoy them. I only listen to Johann Strauss about once a year anyway, so I can't overload on it or anything. 

Disregarding the political/social stuff about the Vienna PO, I really appreciate how polite this thread has been about the music itself. I think it was last year (maybe two years ago) my wife wanted to watch the Vienna New Year's concert live and I asked about it here, and got some really ugly responses. I understand that it's not something culturally respectable, but it can be enjoyable anyway, and there's no need to rub people's nose in the fact that they enjoy music that is in some way or other inferior. There's room enough for all of us!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Hey all.
It's all just for fun, ya know?
remember that?
sheeesh


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The Vienna Philharmonic New Years Concert is not "culturally respectable"? and can be "enjoyable anyway"? Puzzling. My dream would be to get a ticket to this concert. I find this great tradition to be both respectable and enjoyable. There I said it. So arrest me!!!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

moody said:


> Furtwaengler and Hitler had huge rows and Furtwaengler was no Nazi.


Where did I write that Furtwangler was a Nazi? His rows with Hitler had to do with the former wanting to keep his Jewish musicians. I called him Hitler's favorite conductor. That is stigma enough for many folks.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> Oh no you don't! If you want to heap slander on the LSO you're just going to have to do it yourself. I've learned my lesson.


Then we've both acheived something by our exchanges!

I don't wish to heap slander on anyone. I'm only pursuing the same tack that you did - allowing you to find out for yourself whether there is anything in a poster's assertions.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Remind me again, why are we boycotting the VPO? They allow women and they recently adopted blind auditions. What more do you want?

Austria has always been very conservative and consequently so was the orchestra. However, the younger members really pushed for the admission of women. It went to a vote and whilst not unanimous, it was a strong result in favour of women. They also adopted blind auditions (which isn't preferable for many world class orchestras) to prove that they're trying to make some positive changes.

True, only 6 women have been admitted since the vote in '97. However, this is one of the most prestigious orchestras in the world. No one leaves. The VPO doesn't hire anyone over 35 so I expect few auditions.

6 women in 16 years. So that's a woman every 2.5 yrs. We have to assume that some successful auditions were men. 
We could be talking about an audition occurring every 12-18mths...which may not be far from the truth.

The audition process differs a lot when compared to other parts of the world (USA for example). It's not a case of just playing an excerpt and the best musician gets the job. All that means is that you meticulously rehearsed an excerpt.

For anyone interested, this link gives some insight to what happens at BPO auditions. It's a short read. http://www.nobleviola.com/2010/06/02/berlin-philharmonic-auditions/


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

altom said:


> Radetzky March was written in honour of Field Marshal Joseph Radetzky von Radetz immediately after a victory on the piedmontese (italian to be) army in Custoza (not far away from Milan) in 1848. The battle was a real human slaughter, but Italian forgot about that and are ready to pay big sums to hear it at the New Year concert... Music win over history?


1848? So....too soon?
Surely if the French can enjoy the 1812 Overture and I can finally forgive the Germans for the Saxon invasion of England - the Italians can cut Radetzky a break.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

science said:


> I didn't catch any of the New Year's concerts this year, but in general I enjoy them. I only listen to Johann Strauss about once a year anyway, so I can't overload on it or anything.
> 
> Disregarding the political/social stuff about the Vienna PO, I really appreciate how polite this thread has been about the music itself. I think it was last year (maybe two years ago) my wife wanted to watch the Vienna New Year's concert live and I asked about it here, and got some really ugly responses. I understand that it's not something culturally respectable, but it can be enjoyable anyway, and there's no need to rub people's nose in the fact that they enjoy music that is in some way or other inferior. There's room enough for all of us!


There's nothing inferior about this type of music,somebody mentioned The Blue Danube just examine how it's crafted.
I've got shelves of the stuff and let nobody tell me that it's inferior.
Incidentally, I used to attend as many Beecham concerts as possible and he wouldn't hire women.
I didn't give a damn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

He was a real lollipop.


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## Il_Penseroso (Nov 20, 2010)

I wonder why some people have something against Vienna Operattas, Waltzes, etc... and so with the Vienna New Year Concert. Let me just ask what's wrong with playing some joyful music and clapping hands? Those who believe this is too cheap better to live in a country like mine to see all the passive attitude of the people and then know the real worth of happiness!


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Remind me again, why are we boycotting the VPO? They allow women and they recently adopted blind auditions. What more do you want?


What do you mean we? Thought it was just me.



Couac Addict said:


> The audition process differs a lot when compared to other parts of the world (USA for example). It's not a case of just playing an excerpt and the best musician gets the job. All that means is that you meticulously rehearsed an excerpt.


Whose? VPO's? BPO's? Auditions in U.S. usually have more to them than you imply, especially if it is a principal job. Some orchestras have the final candidates spend weeks playing with the orchestra before a decision is made.



Couac Addict said:


> For anyone interested, this link gives some insight to what happens at BPO auditions. It's a short read. http://www.nobleviola.com/2010/06/02/berlin-philharmonic-auditions/


That was interesting. The statement that it has sometimes taken eight years for them to fill a position speaks volumes about the viability of their audition procedures.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

moody said:


> There's nothing inferior about this type of music,somebody mentioned The Blue Danube just examine how it's crafted.
> I've got shelves of the stuff and let nobody tell me that it's inferior.


I agree but it is a frequent victim of inferior performances. I'm calling you out Andre!
Now where are all the dudes in _his_ string section?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

If yu are tired of the "inferior performances", Fritz Reiner recorded some terrific Strauss Waltzes with the Chicago Symphony back in the glory days. Also Carlos Kleiber's incomparable VPO New Years Concert from 1992 is still available.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

It's the 4th day of 2014. Have Peace already! Happy and Harmonious New Year everyone..


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

^^^Best post on this thread! LOL!!


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Look. Wilhelm Furtwangler was Hitler's favorite conductor. Does that mean I should deprive myself of his terrific performance of the Brahms first symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic? One has to divorce oneself from politics and just listen to the music.


Don't worry, that's canceled out by the pope's endorsement:









:lol:

And about Furtwängler's Brahms 1: the 1952 BPO is great, but so is the 1951 North-German Radio orchestra version, and you really need to listen to the 1945 finale only performance with the BPO - tremendous. A person whom I got to listen to it was immediately cured of his Brahms hate.



moody said:


> There's nothing inferior about this type of music,somebody mentioned The Blue Danube just examine how it's crafted.
> I've got shelves of the stuff and let nobody tell me that it's inferior.


Yeah, just ask Brahms about it!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> Whose? VPO's? BPO's? Auditions in U.S. usually have more to them than you imply, especially if it is a principal job. Some orchestras have the final candidates spend weeks playing with the orchestra before a decision is made.


Apologies...a vague assumption on my part just from meeting Americans auditioning in Europe. I have not auditioned in about 12yrs so things may have changed in Europe as well but I'm familiar with the process in France just from having to attend.
The talk was that in the US, orchestras "cattle call" blind auditions. Obviously, finalists require more scrutiny etc.
I'm just talking about the early phase.

I'm only talking about major orchestras. Everyone cattle calls when choices are limited.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

hpowders said:


> If yu are tired of the "inferior performances", Fritz Reiner recorded some terrific Strauss Waltzes with the Chicago Symphony back in the glory days. Also Carlos Kleiber's incomparable VPO New Years Concert from 1992 is still available.


Thanks. I was specifically referring to the fluff that Rieu cranks out.
I have those recordings. For what it's worth, I'm also quite fond of Boskovsky/VPO.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Couac Addict said:


> Thanks. I was specifically referring to the fluff that Rieu cranks out.
> I have those recordings. For what it's worth, I'm also quite fond of Boskovsky/VPO.


I'm not, but love the Reiner and Kleiber. Tremendous playing by Reiner's Chicago, by the way!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Cheyenne said:


> Don't worry, that's canceled out by the pope's endorsement:
> 
> View attachment 31803
> 
> ...


 The BPO outplays the North German Radio. Just listen to that tentative little oboe solo in the second movement which leads into the clarinet solo of the NGRO performance. Doesn't happen in the BPO performance. They are playing like their lives depended on it!


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

True, true, I too prefer the 1952 version - but I'll take both.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

And of course one can't beat (no pun intended) the insistent thwacks of the North German Radio's tympanist at the very beginning of the symphony. Not as pronounced in the BPO performance.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

EdwardBast said:


> Many in the United States a half century ago thought it was fine to exclude African Americans from certain institutions of higher learning since those excluded could be accepted at other institutions. Would this policy bother you? Many believe that the moral status of an action should be decided based on whether it is viable as a general standard of behavior. For example, would it be okay if all orchestras explicitly excluded women and Asians? Of course not. If it is not acceptable in general, then it is not acceptable in specific cases. This is a basic principle of ethics in modern western civilization. Get with the program.


You do know that conductors Leonard Bernstein, who held a post with the VPO, and Barenboim are both Jewish conductors, right? Did not see them turning down those posts, or making a noise about the hiring policies of that orchestra.

Berlin Phil is another who entirely excluded women for decades, and only has a few now.

You are also reaching back to the 1940's to pick a fight, and I bet there are name of others on that list who are there for reasons of their patronage or their family's continued support, but are / were otherwise pretty despicable human beings.

Its also a bit weird to think that the current staff and personnel of the VPO might readily recognize some of those long-ago names as long ago dead Nazis. Once noticed, or brought to their attention, it was taken care of, and quite publicly, too.

Symphony posts are often tenured, chairs come up very seldom. To expect an orchestra to change the demographic of their personnel based on gender or race, overnight, is patently absurd.

Too, if you are deliberately seeking women and non-whites and filling those newly available posts to the exclusion of white males who are equal so far as their auditions and CV go, that is also 'sexism and racism.'

Many are awake and aware of the program, even 'with the program,' they're just not wildly unrealistic or as over-reactionary as some.

ADD P.s. If anyone so fired up about injustice and discrimination would care to make a more effective move, campaigning wherever you are against the glass ceiling re: women's salaries -- or school teacher's salaries whatever the gender -- in a myriad of job posts around the world might be a better place for such zeal.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

OldFashionedGirl said:


> What's your opinion about the Vienna New Year concert? Do you like that concert? I was listening to the concert from past year for a while, and have find the repertoire too sugary for my taste. And the prices for attend to the concert are too high. It's not surprising that classical music is considered elitist, with those prices .


It is sugary because it is a light music affair, a party, like the last night of the Proms, like many another New Year's concert in many another venue. Whipped Cream, sweets, and Coffee and Tea is all anyone is expecting from these traditional party-type concerts, and nothing much 'heavier,' or more substantial.

They cost a fortune because they are popular, there is a huge demand for tickets, and it is one night where any orchestra can be certain the concert will be sold out, and bring in good revenues -- which help keep the more serious music programming afloat through the rest of the season.

I would bet there are people in attendance at those concerts who barely make it to any other concerts the rest of the year.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

> Hiring policy explicitly excluded women until 1997. Since then have added two in 30 or 40 auditions. No non whites.


No doubt the orchestra is dominated by a very conservative culture, but a quick reading of the latest list of the orchestra´s members actually results in 9 female names (and 1 retired female), which makes quite a difference compared to that outdated information.

http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/orchestra/members


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

science said:


> I didn't catch any of the New Year's concerts this year, but in general I enjoy them. I only listen to Johann Strauss about once a year anyway, so I can't overload on it or anything.
> 
> Disregarding the political/social stuff about the Vienna PO, I really appreciate how polite this thread has been about the music itself. I think it was last year (maybe two years ago) my wife wanted to watch the Vienna New Year's concert live and I asked about it here, and got some really ugly responses. I understand that it's not something culturally respectable, but it can be enjoyable anyway, and there's no need to rub people's nose in the fact that they enjoy music that is in some way or other inferior. There's room enough for all of us!


There is nothing inferior about a first-class torte and coffee with whipped cream, as made by superb chefs -- sheesh. I remember calling it light music and someone came all unraveled six ways from Sunday thinking "Light" meant "inferior."

It just means 'light.'


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## CyrilWashbrook (Feb 6, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> No doubt the orchestra is dominated by a very conservative culture, but a quick reading of the latest list of the orchestra´s members actually results in 9 female names (and 1 retired female), which makes quite a difference compared to that outdated information.
> 
> http://www.wienerphilharmoniker.at/orchestra/members


I count seven: Danailova, Ballot, Kurylyak (violin), Plaichinger, Ivanova (viola), Wex (cello) and Balzereit (harp). Either way, it's not a lot. Seven out of an orchestra of 129 members works out to slightly over 5 per cent. I don't think one can exactly say that such a figure puts a whole different complexion on things. For sure, you wouldn't expect the process to be instant or smooth, but Edward's attempt to highlight a persistent gender imbalance seems to be valid to me.

And as a point of interest, it may be worth doing the same exercise with the number of non-white players and seeing what you come up with.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

CyrilWashbrook said:


> I count seven: Danailova, Ballot, Kurylyak (violin), Plaichinger, Ivanova (viola), Wex (cello) and Balzereit (harp). Either way, it's not a lot. Seven out of an orchestra of 129 members works out to slightly over 5 per cent. I don't think one can exactly say that such a figure puts a whole different complexion on things. For sure, you wouldn't expect the process to be instant or smooth, but Edward's attempt to highlight a persistent gender imbalance seems to be valid to me.
> 
> And as a point of interest, it may be worth doing the same exercise with the number of non-white players and seeing what you come up with.


add Koll (violin), Lennaerts (harp) and Bonelli (flute) = 10. These last three are playing members of the orchestra list, but defined as "confirmed members of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra who do not yet belong to the association of the Vienna Philharmonic".


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Cheyenne said:


> Don't worry, that's canceled out by the pope's endorsement:
> 
> View attachment 31803
> 
> ...


Why on earth would I ask Brahms,but more to the point who cares what he had to say.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I believe in simply relaxing and enjoying great music being beautifully played.

One of my favorite performances is a recording of Leonard Bernstein conducting the VPO in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. I don't care how or why he got there. Listening to the performance, he obviously had a great rapport with those musicians, probably better than he had with the NY Philharmonic, which tended to sound sloppy when he was around. The VPO musicians were responding to a great musician. They didn't seem to care about his background.

I would jump at the chance to hear the BPO or VPO performing live. I'm a music lover, not a politician.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

moody said:


> Why on earth would I ask Brahms,but more to the point who cares what he had to say.


The first thing he would probably say is "Do you have Clara's email address?"


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## Cheyenne (Aug 6, 2012)

moody said:


> Why on earth would I ask Brahms,but more to the point who cares what he had to say.


I was merely alluding to the funny story about Brahms writing the first few notes of _An der Schönen Blauen Donau_ on the autograph-fan of Johan Strauss' stepdaughter and adding "unfortunately not by Brahms."


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Cheyenne said:


> I was merely alluding to the funny story about Brahms writing the first few notes of _An der Schönen Blauen Donau_ on the autograph-fan of Johan Strauss' stepdaughter and adding "unfortunately not by Brahms."


I had forgotten all about that--you should have put it in the post.


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## CyrilWashbrook (Feb 6, 2013)

hpowders said:


> I believe in simply relaxing and enjoying great music being beautifully played.
> 
> One of my favorite performances is a recording of Leonard Bernstein conducting the VPO in Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. I don't care how or why he got there. Listening to the performance, he obviously had a great rapport with those musicians, probably better than he had with the NY Philharmonic, which tended to sound sloppy when he was around. The VPO musicians were responding to a great musician. They didn't seem to care about his background.
> 
> I would jump at the chance to hear the BPO or VPO performing live. I'm a music lover, not a politician.


There's a middle ground between dismissing so-called "political" issues as irrelevant to "music loving" and boycotting the institutions entirely. I see no problem with both (1) admiring wholeheartedly the quality of the music produced by an orchestra and (2) shining a light on very real issues of exclusion and discrimination that may exist within that institution and within the world of classical music generally. What one makes of each is a matter of individual opinion, but there's no inherent need to treat the latter stepmotherly for the sake of the former. I see it as no more bizarre an exercise than "Let's Kick Racism Out of Football".


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

To each his own.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

It seems to me that those who are fixated upon the assumed continued exclusionary and prejudicial hiring procedures of arts institutions such as the Vienna Philharmonic or the Berlin Philharmonic need to do far better than simply point out the racial and gender make-up of the current orchestras. Questions that immediately come to my mind include:

How many positions have opened up and been staffed by new performers within the last 10 years? 20 years?
How many qualified musicians applied for each position?
What percentage of these qualified applicants were female or minority?
The BPO and VPO are cultural institutions deeply connected with German and Austrian culture and history. What are the requirements/expectations with regard to German/Austrian citizenship/heritage and membership in the orchestra?
Are we to assume that the BPO and VPO should simply exclude white male performers from qualification for new openings in order to rapidly affect a racial/gender balance in order to please the politically correct? 
Are women and non-whites the only "minorities" that should be given an increased presence in the orchestras?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

There is nothing inferior about a first-class torte and coffee with whipped cream, as made by superb chefs...

Indeed! Nothing like well-made bon-bons from time to time. There are moments when nothing suits me so much as Strauss II, Lehar, Offenbach, Humperdinck's _Hansel und Gretel_... or dare I say it... Mozart's _Zauberflote_!


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

CyrilWashbrook said:


> There's a middle ground between dismissing so-called "political" issues as irrelevant to "music loving" and boycotting the institutions entirely. I see no problem with both (1) admiring wholeheartedly the quality of the music produced by an orchestra and (2) shining a light on very real issues of exclusion and discrimination that may exist within that institution and within the world of classical music generally. What one makes of each is a matter of individual opinion, but there's no inherent need to treat the latter stepmotherly for the sake of the former. I see it as no more bizarre an exercise than "Let's Kick Racism Out of Football".


Boycotting pro sporting events is truly easy, far more expensive in general than a good seat to the opera, by de facto huge absence of number of participants simply due to cost = de facto boycott: give'em all a badge, I say.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> There is nothing inferior about a first-class torte and coffee with whipped cream, as made by superb chefs...
> 
> Indeed! Nothing like well-made bon-bons from time to time. There are moments when nothing suits me so much as Strauss II, Lehar, Offenbach, Humperdinck's _Hansel und Gretel_... or dare I say it... Mozart's _Zauberflote_!


Zauberflote counts as a bon-bon?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

CyrilWashbrook said:


> There's a middle ground between dismissing so-called "political" issues as irrelevant to "music loving" and boycotting the institutions entirely. I see no problem with both (1) admiring wholeheartedly the quality of the music produced by an orchestra and (2) shining a light on very real issues of exclusion and discrimination that may exist within that institution and within the world of classical music generally. What one makes of each is a matter of individual opinion, but there's no inherent need to treat the latter stepmotherly for the sake of the former. I see it as no more bizarre an exercise than "Let's Kick Racism Out of Football".


Have you no problems around your home town.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

GreenMamba said:


> Zauberflote counts as a bon-bon?


A-yep, a 'light' and surreal comedic sing-spiel by a master composer, written for a near-vaudeville populist theater.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

moody said:


> Have you no problems around your home town.


Yeah, something like not enough Caucasian women on the local (American) football team, evidently, along with not nearly enough height-challenged individuals with prosthetic limbs driving the buses in that town. And the local symphonic choir has too many male altos... so much to get righted


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