# Work(s) composers should have scratched from their opus



## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Every composer has some works which may not have been their best music. Which works do you feel a composer should have deleted from his record?
I'll start with Prokofiev's 4th. Both versions, neither works, Both are duds.Proof it was a dud , is the plain fact that Prokofiev attempted to improve on it, and the end result was just messy.IMHO Prokofiev does not have 7 syms to his credit, but 6, and really if you consider the 1st is just a neo classical exercise, he really only has 5 syms to his credit,. The rest range from good to outstanding. 

Great wonderful composer in spite of his 4th sym as a dud.

Any others you can think of?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

4'33", not Cages Finest effort


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Oh here's yet another , how could I fail to mention this one by a super fav composer, Ravel. ,,,BOLERO. ,,yuckkk, how did that thing ever become so popular? 
I hate that thing. One dud among endless masterpieces, easily forgivable.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> 4'33", not Cages Finest effort


Just another example of someone not willing to put in the effort to understand it and come to like it.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Orff should have scratched Carmina Burana.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DaveM said:


> Just another example of someone not willing to put in the effort to understand it and come to like it.


To paraphrase J. F. Runciman: "It is one's duty to hate with all possible fervor the empty and ugly in art; and I hate Cage's 4'33" with a hate that is perfect."

Still, amusing as flypaper for poseurs.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Just another example of someone not willing to put in the effort to understand it and come to like it.


True, however I feel Cages  One[SUP]3[/SUP] is far superior


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Every composer has some works which may not have been their best music. Which works do you feel a composer should have deleted from his record?
> I'll start with Prokofiev's 4th. Both versions, neither works, Both are duds.Proof it was a dud , is the plain fact that Prokofiev attempted to improve on it, and the end result was just messy.IMHO Prokofiev does not have 7 syms to his credit, but 6, and really if you consider the 1st is just a neo classical exercise, he really only has 5 syms to his credit,. The rest range from good to outstanding.
> 
> Great wonderful composer in spite of his 4th sym as a dud.
> ...


One man's opinion. For me, Prokofiev's original version of the 4th works just fine. His 2nd symphony is noise--the ear-splitting first movement an accurate portrayal of the Final Battle of Godzilla and King Kong. Aesthetics is personal opinion, nothing more, no matter how people struggle to transform it into any sort of universal recognition of inherent Truth and Beauty.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It's quite a step from "I dislike this work sooo much" to "composers should have scratched this from their opus". Given the examples posted so far, it is also clearly a step too far.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I love Prokofiev's 4th (and the 2nd even more). 

I'm not sure I would scratch any opus numbers, but because I thought about this recently I would like to use this thread to confess Bartok's Piano Concerto no. 3 is a bit of a let down for me. But it is only because for me the first two are among the most jaw dropping masterpieces in the repertoire, they are remarkable, eternally fresh works that I enjoy beyond description. The 3rd by comparison, is just a very nice work, and the last movement seems a bit of a watered down version of the last movement of his second PC. But all that said I still wouldn't scratch it.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Ditch it? I don't think so. Perhaps his struggle is that the first movement tries to be all things to all people or he had trouble deciding exactly on what he wanted it to be. But there are some exquisite and subtle dissonances worth hearing and also an epic grandeur at times that reveals another side of the composer. I consider this an underrated symphony that does not set out to impress; I don't think that was his intention and his purpose was more subtle than that. I thought this was an excellent performance:






"I'll start with Prokofiev's 4th. Both versions, neither works, Both are duds.Proof it was a dud , is the plain fact that Prokofiev attempted to improve on it, and the end result was just messy."

Wait a minute. That he revised it does not prove that it should be considered a dud; it proves that he thought it was worth reworking and developing to a greater length or he would have withdrawn it after his first version. It has a complex past and it was based on one of his ballets, _The Prodigal Son_... The symphony is still played today even if it's not as popular as his others. The count is still at seven and his 4th Symphony is gaining in appreciationq because it's still a serious work. Some listeners like to hear it for themselves to make up their own minds rather than accept someone's abrupt or dismissive opinion that it's a failure. Conductor Neeme Järvi presented the first and second versions as masterpieces worthy of attention. I doubt if he would consider it a symphony without worth or merit and that it belongs on a scrapheap. The more I hear it the more I like it but it requires an outstanding performance.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Strange Magic said:


> One man's opinion. For me, Prokofiev's original version of the 4th works just fine. His 2nd symphony is noise--the ear-splitting first movement an accurate portrayal of the Final Battle of Godzilla and King Kong. Aesthetics is personal opinion, nothing more, no matter how people struggle to transform it into any sort of universal recognition of inherent Truth and Beauty.


I'm with Strange Music on this. The 2nd got tiring for me pretty quick. I feel the 4th had a lot more depth. I like the revised version.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Phil loves classical said:


> I'm with Strange Music on this.


Very unfortunate typo.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Strange Magic said:


> One man's opinion. For me, Prokofiev's original version of the 4th works just fine. His 2nd symphony is noise--the ear-splitting first movement an accurate portrayal of the Final Battle of Godzilla and King Kong.


Yes but if his original 4th was OK, why the revision? 
I can't get through more than 5 minutes,,,then I skip through to see if it gets any better, no.
Now his 2nd sym, is a towering masterpiece. many of us are stunned by that picturesque image of the modern industrial age.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tchaikovsky 1812 and Manfred. One awful and one boring.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Ditch it? I don't think so. Perhaps his struggle is that the first movement tries to be all things to all people or he had trouble deciding exactly on what he wanted it to be. But there are some exquisite and subtle dissonances worth hearing and also an epic grandeur at times that reveals another side of the composer. I consider this an underrated symphony that does not set out to impress; I don't think that was his intention and his purpose was more subtle than that. I thought this was an excellent performance:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, I am sold. I have the great Neeme Jarvi set along with the Kitayenko set, both offer the 2 versions. I just listened to some of the 4th on YT,,,there is indeed some typical excellent Prokofiev lyricism to be found. I must have been ina hyped critical mode back when I last heard it. I love all things Prokofiev, so I shocked myself in hyper criticism of his 4th,,and just chucked it off. 
It does meander at times you must admit?


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Hate to open up yet another attack on Prokofiev,,,but this has been on mind for some time now, His 1st VC, the opening 3 minutes,,,very awkward lines, you must admit. Even the great David Oistrakh takes the opening very carefully as if in a surgical operation..which makes the opening seemingly too docile, even weak. 
His 2nd VC is the greater and I ahrdly ever listen to the 1st.
Its not a great concerto you must admit.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

paulbest said:


> Its not a great concerto you must admit.


For me it is, and I like it better than the second.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Geez, I wish I had all day to reply to some of these comments.



Fritz Kobus said:


> Orff should have scratched Carmina Burana.


Why the hell would he do that? He was so proud of it (and rightly so IMO) that he told his publisher, Schott, that all of his prior works should be discarded and Camina considered his Opus 1. It is easily one of the most recognizable works in the entire literature, and perhaps the single most popular work written in the entire 20th c.



Merl said:


> Tchaikovsky 1812 and Manfred. One awful and one boring.


"1812", for all its garishness and bombast is a strikingly original work - from a technical standpoint it demonstrates Tchaikovsky's mastery of harmony, counterpoint, modulation, orchestration...it's really a superbly written work. It's hard to play, too - this is not for amateurs. It's not on my favorites list, but don't dismiss it entirely. It served a function and the composer rose to the occasion spendidly.

Manfred boring? Not for me. Are there boring recordings? Yes. But there are some that are just thrilling. But to each his own. I do wish that fugue in the finale had been left out. Other than that, it's one of my absolute favorite Tchaikovsky works.



paulbest said:


> Prokofiev's 4th


Prokofieff took a while to come to terms with the symphony. The 2nd was his first real attempt, and strove to avoid the traditional format. The 3rd and 4th were hampered by their derivations from an opera and a ballet. Only in the 5th did he finally write a truly great symphony, followed by a 6th which some people think is even greater. There are a lot of composers whose best work can't even rise to the level of the 4th. And it's a hoot to play! (2nd ver). Very challenging, but very rewarding. The scoring is brilliant.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I would have liked Britten to scratch the Serenade for tenor, Horn and Strings.

It's the only piece by him that I actually like, and had he not written it, I would be in the position of being able to dislike ALL of his music unreservedly! :devil:

Agree that Prokofiev 4 doesn't work, in either version, btw....


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Oh I get it now. What we have to do is choose the most popular works of whatever composer and say they were no good and ought not to have been written. 

Liking popular standards is for the amateurs.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

Richard Strauss' Japanische Festmusik op. 84 written "to celebrate the 2600-Year Existence of the Japanese Empire" and dedicated to Emperor Hirohito. "Showy and bombastic" was the verdict of the Japan Times critic when it appeared, which few subsequent commentators have disputed.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Bolero and Carmina Burana made their composers boatloads of money. We should all be so lucky.


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## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

I love Mendelssohn's music but his Piano Concerto No.1 is a sad misfire. Berlioz wrote an amusing skit making fun of it.


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## Pat Fairlea (Dec 9, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Bolero and Carmina Burana made their composers boatloads of money. We should all be so lucky.


Likewise William Walton. When asked in his old age what he now thought of his youthful piece 'Facade', he simply replied "It keeps me".


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Merl said:


> Tchaikovsky 1812 and Manfred. One awful and one boring.


I like the 1812! Manfred, it must be admitted, could use more cannons.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

KenOC said:


> ....... Manfred, it must be admitted, could use more cannons.


And a memorable tune, somewhere.


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## drmdjones (Dec 25, 2018)

Beethoven: Wellington's Victory and the triple concerto.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

David Phillips said:


> I love Mendelssohn's music but his Piano Concerto No.1 is a sad misfire. Berlioz wrote an amusing skit making fun of it.


This is a sad misfire? Sheesh!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

CnC Bartok said:


> Agree that Prokofiev 4 doesn't work, in either version, btw....


You know, I backed down from my original opinion on the 4th, after receiving some gunfire flack. ...my wing was hit,,,so I said I would reconsider,,It does meander and have some sluggish episodes. Take the powerful, dynamic, unreal 2nd, 3rd syms, Unreal, then comes the 4th,,see what I mean, its like *what happened,,,,,the 5,6,7 are all great symphonies. I ordered the Mravinsky in the 5,6 syms, Mravinsky was like Stokowski in conducting, tried to get at the very core of the music, Furtwangler falls in that category as well as Bruno Walter.,,add in Boulez in some recordings.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Richard Strauss' Japanische Festmusik op. 84 written "to celebrate the 2600-Year Existence of the Japanese Empire" and dedicated to Emperor Hirohito. "Showy and bombastic" was the verdict of the Japan Times critic when it appeared, which few subsequent commentators have disputed.


Congratulations on finding a true clunker. I've loved avoiding this thing for years, but every once in a while it's fun to return to the scene of the crime.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Congratulations on finding a true clunker. I've loved avoiding this thing for years, but every once in a while it's fun to return to the scene of the crime.


Wagner did one of these of course. And he was paid a lot of money for it!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Wagner did one of these of course. And he was paid a lot of money for it!


He actually remarked that his fee was the best thing about it. But on hearing this again I'm amazed to notice that the melody of the quiet violin part starting at 2:40 sounds extraordinarily like Mahler.


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Bolero. It’s because of this work I can’t say I like everything from Ravel.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Shostakovich's Jazz Suites are insipid and cringe-inducing. Stravinsky did fake jazz better.

Edit: Well what do you know. He never assigned them an opus number. Still, they're terrible.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

DaveM said:


> This is a sad misfire? Sheesh!


 There's a big difference between a work that never should've seen the light of day and a poor performance, and I wouldn't say that this qualifies on either account. There are also other fine recordings:


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

This may seem a little off track from the other posts in this thread, but I'll take on the OP's topic literally. Richard Rodgers should not have taken the credit as composer for Victory at Sea (originally a soundtrack, but reworked into a suite, or series of them), which is almost entirely the work of his long-time arranger and orchestrator, Robert Russell Bennett. It stands far apart from, and in my opinion, though it has some merit, below, Rodgers' other work.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Larkenfield said:


> There's a big difference between a work that never should've seen the light of day and a poor performance, and I wouldn't say that this qualifies on either account. There are also other fine recordings:


It is a nice performance...of Mendelssohn's #2.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Thank goodness this isn't possible, because I enjoy a good number of works nominated in this thread. :lol: Even if a work isn't the most successful in a composer's ouevre, I can't think of any good reason it should be completely wiped from existence. If anything they offer a little perspective and contrast to the truly great compositions.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

apricissimus said:


> Shostakovich's Jazz Suites are insipid and cringe-inducing. Stravinsky did fake jazz better.
> 
> Edit: Well what do you know. He never assigned them an opus number. Still, they're terrible.


I'd say it's the other way around. Stravinsky's fake jazz is not even tongue-in-cheek and he didn't even have the Kremlin breathing down his neck. Overrated.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Bolero. It's because of this work I can't say I like everything from Ravel.


I am a Ravelian.
Yet I avoid even a note from that thing ever reaching my ears.

Ravel is a genius, do not let Bolero block his masterpieces glory from shining your way.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The limit of time in which a composer can effectively write in a single rhythm and tempo is reached by Ravel toward the end of _La Valse_ and toward the beginning of _Bolero._ (quote from somebody)


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> 4'33", not Cages Finest effort


No effort at all on that one, I must say lol.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

4'33" is my favorite work of Cage for home listening. It's perfect right before _Parsifal,_ which lasts 4 hours and 33 minutes.


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> 4'33" is my favorite work of Cage for home listening. It's perfect right before _Parsifal,_ which lasts 4 hours and 33 minutes.


It plays very nicely, over and over, while playing Parsifal.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> 4'33", not Cages Finest effort


And if you don't *get* it 1st listen, here is a 10 hour version/performance.
I made sure I kept it at the very beginning, didn't want you guys to miss out on even 1 second of this masterpiece.
Enjoy


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

and there's more Cage's great 4:33.
Here is a live performance, with abundant applause, even a standing ovation.

Enjoy the free concert


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Like I said I just prefer Cages One^3


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> The limit of time in which a composer can effectively write in a single rhythm and tempo is reached by Ravel toward the end of _La Valse_ and toward the beginning of _Bolero._ (quote from somebody)


Yes, but to be fair to Ravel, Bolero was written to accompany a dance performance, and it was never intended to be his signature concert piece. Its already immense popularity in his lifetime horrified him.


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

WildThing said:


> Thank goodness this isn't possible, because I enjoy a good number of works nominated in this thread. :lol: Even if a work isn't the most successful in a composer's ouevre, I can't think of any good reason it should be completely wiped from existence. If anything they offer a little perspective and contrast to the truly great compositions.


That is the main reason I took the OP's question more literally. Why destroy music, even if it isn't first rate? Victory at Sea should not be completely wiped from existence, but it should be deleted from the record of Richard Rodgers. It simply isn't his work, but rather is the work of another, and lesser, composer.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Ban Victory at Sea? Never! Come athwart me hausers, matey, and it's a taste of my 18-pounders you'll be getting! :scold:


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

paulbest said:


> Hate to open up yet another attack on Prokofiev,,,but this has been on mind for some time now, His 1st VC, the opening 3 minutes,,,very awkward lines, you must admit. Even the great David Oistrakh takes the opening very carefully as if in a surgical operation..which makes the opening seemingly too docile, even weak.
> His 2nd VC is the greater and I ahrdly ever listen to the 1st.
> Its not a great concerto you must admit.


I "admit" no such thing. This thread again and again demonstrates the validity, the irrefutability, of one's own personal aesthetic. Why just the other evening I listened to the first VC and was again stunned by how beautiful a piece it is. So I then listened to the second and found it beautiful also in its own special way. _De gustibus non disputandum est._


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## Littlephrase (Nov 28, 2018)

Strange Magic said:


> I "admit" no such thing. This thread again and again demonstrates the validity, the irrefutability, of one's own personal aesthetic. Why just the other evening I listened to the first VC and was again stunned by how beautiful a piece it is. So I then listened to the second and found it beautiful also in its own special way. _De gustibus non disputandum est._


I listened to the VC1 today and found it quite stellar! Prokofiev's Concertos are all excellent.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

fluteman said:


> Yes, but to be fair to Ravel, Bolero was written to accompany a dance performance, and it was never intended to be his signature concert piece. Its already immense popularity in his lifetime horrified him.


Personally, I think Bolero is perfectly fine as what it is: a piece I listened to with pleasure long ago, and can still enjoy when enough years have passed to make its delightful orchestration seem fresh again. It really does have a great tune too.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Like I said I just prefer Cages One^3


I can't find the solo One^3 = 4'33" version. But I would bet I'd rather listen to the solo version with audience sounds over this.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

paulbest said:


> and there's more Cage's great 4:33.
> Here is a live performance, with abundant applause, even a standing ovation.
> 
> Enjoy the free concert


Someone ought to dig him up just to give him a swift kick in the ****.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Ditch the crabby listeners and critics and all the composers’ problems are solved except the one of income and they don’t have to scratch anything except an itch.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I fail to see any problem with Prokofiev's 1st Violin Conceerto. Or with his 2nd for that matter. We're lucky that both Prokofiev and Shostakovich did such fine jobs with their concertos!


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Ban Victory at Sea? Never! Come athwart me hausers, matey, and it's a taste of my 18-pounders you'll be getting! :scold:


Yes, in fact "banning music" smacks of oppressive regimes like Nazi Germany. If anything should be banned, it's the whole idea of banning music. Edit: OK, I wrote that before CnC Bartok's comment below about Celibidache. I may have to reconsider. ;-)


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## JB Henson (Mar 29, 2019)

Albinoni - Adagio in G. *bahdum*


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

paulbest said:


> And if you don't *get* it 1st listen, here is a 10 hour version/performance.
> I made sure I kept it at the very beginning, didn't want you guys to miss out on even 1 second of this masterpiece.
> Enjoy


I didn't realise Celibidache's repertoire stretched to John Cage....


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