# How is Carlos Kleiber so perfect?



## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

How long did they practice exactly? Or were the non quota mandated orchestras of the past so much better in potential?

It's not just his interpretation that's better, but the musicians simply play for him like it's their last time playing. Of all the conductors his performances are the most perfect and technically proficient, even if his interpretation isn't as sensitive as Bernstein's, as romantic as Furtwangler's, or as powerful as Karajan's, everything he does fits perfectly and the musicians play otherworldly.

Was anyone here there to see him rehearse?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I wasn't aware that Carlos Kleiber was perfect. Actually, I didn't think "perfection" was a concept applicable to musical interpretation.

Why do you think he was perfect - or, for that matter, better than other conductors?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

He wasn't perfect. Very good, indeed. But he had the most limited repertoire of any conductor I can remember. Some people will swear on their lives that the Beethoven 5 & 7 VPO recording is the best ever and will never be surpassed. Not in my opinion - there are many recordings of each that I esteem more highly. But he had a certain charisma that allowed him to ask (and get) far more rehearsal time than was the norm. It would be interesting to know say in 50 years time, when no living person would have heard him live, if his hallowed legacy is still intact based solely on recordings.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2019)

1996D said:


> non quota mandated orchestras of the past so much better in potential?


Does this mean what I think it means?


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

ad nauseam<<<<<<perfection..............................subjectivity>>>>>>


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

1996D said:


> Or were the non quota mandated orchestras of the past so much better in potential?


That statement doesn't even pass the smell test. If you wanted a quota mandated orchestra, the last thing you would want are the blind auditions which so many orchestras use. And that doesn't even address the issue of why they could have been potentially better.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

He was voted the greatest conductor ever by fellow musicians and who am I to contradict them? However, he did not conduct many times compared with his fellows and his recordings, though remarkable, are comparatively few. I wonder if he had been so prolific in the studio as Karajan or Bernstein whether there would be this almost mythical opinion of him. The greatest conductor ever who hardly conducted!


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## BachIsBest (Feb 17, 2018)

DavidA said:


> He was voted the greatest conductor ever by fellow musicians and who am I to contradict them? However, he did not conduct many times compared with his fellows and his recordings, though remarkable, are comparatively few. I wonder if he had been so prolific in the studio as Karajan or Bernstein whether there would be this almost mythical opinion of him. The greatest conductor ever who hardly conducted!


I would doubt opinions would be as mythical if he was prolific. The reclusive genius who barely records except in a few spectacular bursts of genius is a far better mythos than someone so commercially successful like von Karajan.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Neither do I belong to the Carlos Kleiber fan club but I do know this about him: Kleiber, being the son of a famous conductor (Erich), was somewhat insecure about his art and often canceled engagements because of this. He was famous for doing so at the last minute. He also did not record often for the same reason. 

So the recorded body of his work is scant compared to conductors like Karajan, Bernstein, Ormandy and Marriner who have thousands of recordings. With that wide a body of art a conductor's warts are exposed. When the body that exists is relatively small it is easy for it to appear to have no warts.

If you enjoy Carlos Kleiber's way with music this criteria fits, I believe.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2019)

DavidA said:


> He was voted the greatest conductor ever by fellow musicians...


Quite true.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bb...ssreleases/2011/03_march/carlos_kleiber.shtml

But then...

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/great-conductors/

Lorin Maazel?

Or...

https://www.scaruffi.com/music/conducto.html

Furtwangler!


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_But then...

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-m...at-conductors/

Lorin Maazel?_

… or Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla the 12-greatest conductor of all time? The oddities of polling no doubt.

I think you'll see Bernstien, Karajan and Toscanini in the top 10 of all these polls.

Meanwhile, Carlos Kleiber appeared in one of them.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2019)

larold said:


> Meanwhile, Carlos Kleiber appeared in one of them.


But, to be fair, the people polled were not mere musicologists or just music journalists.


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## D Smith (Sep 13, 2014)

"non quota mandated orchestras of the past"

........

Simply gobsmacked.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Frankly, I don't know who did the Classic fm list but that can be totally discounted. I mean, they include Berlioz? Did anyone ever hear him conduct? And by the same token, why is Mahler omitted? The whole thing is rubbish and can be discounted. One of them seems to be some guy's opinion so take no notice.
But the BBC is more interesting yet pretty flawed to me. I mean, who would put Rattle above Toscanini, one of the fathers of modern conducting? Or Rattle above Beecham? Or Harnoncourt above Furtwangler? And no room for Solti? Of course, it does depend somewhat on repertoire but Kleiber had a small one, at least the things he conducted. So the whole thing is interesting but (like all polls) to be taken with a pinch of salt.


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## 1996D (Dec 18, 2018)

larold said:


> Neither do I belong to the Carlos Kleiber fan club but I do know this about him: Kleiber, being the son of a famous conductor (Erich), was somewhat insecure about his art and often canceled engagements because of this. He was famous for doing so at the last minute. He also did not record often for the same reason.
> 
> So the recorded body of his work is scant compared to conductors like Karajan, Bernstein, Ormandy and Marriner who have thousands of recordings. With that wide a body of art a conductor's warts are exposed. *When the body that exists is relatively small it is easy for it to appear to have no warts.*
> 
> If you enjoy Carlos Kleiber's way with music this criteria fits, I believe.


That makes sense. I also read he was very good with people and a natural leader, just, not harsh. Would love if someone who played for him gave details.



D Smith said:


> "non quota mandated orchestras of the past"
> 
> ........
> 
> Simply gobsmacked.


Quotas are everywhere today and no one who has experienced them up close, in whatever field, denies their harmful nature. In an engineering firm it might not matter because the wealth is so that the margin for BS is huge, but when it comes to art... There is where we lose something of real value.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

DavidA said:


> He was voted the greatest conductor ever by fellow musicians and who am I to contradict them? However, he did not conduct many times compared with his fellows and his recordings, though remarkable, are comparatively few. I wonder if he had been so prolific in the studio as Karajan or Bernstein whether there would be this almost mythical opinion of him. The greatest conductor ever who hardly conducted!


This is a flawed argument. Kleiber made few recordings of Beethoven, but in those few recordings he bettered both Karajan and Bernstein. It is not a myth. It is based on the actual music. I think you are trying to invent alternate rationales to explain away people's opinions.

It stands to reason that if Kleiber had recorded a complete Beethoven cycle it would be considered the modern classic.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

The first classic FM poll was among conductors and who most inspired them. That doesn't necessarily require a volume of recordings or performances, only that the performances and recordings he did were impressive. The other two lists weren't polls... Kleiber was incredibly knowledgeable about music even if he apparently didn't enjoy conducting that much. But among musicians and conductors he was considered something special. I doubt if the word "perfection" is the right word to describe him but he did give a great deal of attention to details and usually demanded more rehearsal time. When he stepped in front of an orchestra there were usually happy musicians. He had magic hands.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/1990/jan/01/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures


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## innoverskuen (Oct 27, 2017)

Perfection - a undefinable quality - that only few people have.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Not everyone wants to hear “perfect.” To me Furtwängler was the greatest conductor on record, and he purposefully avoided perfection. I’ll take moving and captivating over perfect.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

...............


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

1996D said:


> How long did they practice exactly? Or were the non quota mandated orchestras of the past so much better in potential?
> 
> It's not just his interpretation that's better, but the musicians simply play for him like it's their last time playing. Of all the conductors his performances are the most perfect and technically proficient, even if his interpretation isn't as sensitive as Bernstein's, as romantic as Furtwangler's, or as powerful as Karajan's, everything he does fits perfectly and the musicians play otherworldly.
> 
> Was anyone here there to see him rehearse?


If you think he's perfect then he is for you. Enjoy! Don't listen to the nattering nabobs of negativism.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It stands to reason that if Kleiber had recorded a complete Beethoven cycle it would be considered the modern classic.


I don't see what reason has to do with it. He left an exceptionally fine Beethoven 5 and 7. Are they the best modern readings? Not everyone thinks so. Would the other seven have won equal acclaim? Reason won't supply the answer.

I haven't heard all Kleiber's recordings. But for my money his _Tristan,_ however fine, is not more compelling than Bohm's or Karajan's 1952 performance, and let's not even talk about old masters such as Furtwangler and De Sabata.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

innoverskuen said:


> Perfection - a undefinable quality - that only few people have.


Mary Poppins was a fine conductor.....


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

CnC Bartok said:


> Mary Poppins was a fine conductor.....


Of streetcars or electricity?


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Of streetcars or electricity?


Tempting to experiment with the latter....:devil:

I do feel sorry for Lorin Maazel. To be voted best ever ever ever by Classic FM, where the FM stands for "F%#k Me, this is Kitsch", puts him in a select group of greatest pianist ever ever ever: Lang Lang; greatest violinist ever ever ever: Andre Rieu; And greatest composer ever ever ever, John Rutter.

Ho hum.....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Oldhoosierdude said:


> If you think he's perfect then he is for you. Enjoy! Don't listen to the nattering nabobs of negativism.


Also, ignore the effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals. :lol:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well, his father, Etich, was no slouch.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

He has an excellent Brahms 4, outside of that I haven't listened to many of his recordings.


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I don't see what reason has to do with it. He left an exceptionally fine Beethoven 5 and 7. Are they the best modern readings? Not everyone thinks so. Would the other seven have won equal acclaim? Reason won't supply the answer.
> 
> I haven't heard all Kleiber's recordings. But for my money his _Tristan,_ however fine, is not more compelling than Bohm's or Karajan's 1952 performance, and let's not even talk about old masters such as Furtwangler and De Sabata.


It's a fact that he left the most celebrated 5th of modern times. This has nothing to with whether any one particular individual thinks it's the best or the worst. So my point stands that if he had recorded an entire cycle it most probably would have been the most celebrated cycle of modern times.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Brahmsianhorn said:


> It's a fact that he left the most celebrated 5th of modern times. This has nothing to with whether any one particular individual thinks it's the best or the worst. So my point stands that if he had recorded an entire cycle it most probably would have been the most celebrated cycle of modern times.


Maybe. Maybe not.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Here's an opportunity to learn what other prominent conductors see in him and nobody seems interested. The poll was supposedly among conductors, not how the general public views or likes him. Maybe there's more to him than meets the eyes and ears than is apparent on the surface.

And it would be helpful to know who exactly has described him as "so perfect"? It's doubtful that he saw himself that way.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Worth watching...


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## JEC (Mar 11, 2015)

Kleiber was after perfection, and it tortured him when he could not achieve it. God bless him for trying.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Good article on Kleiber at the time of his death:
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/20/local/me-kleiber20

"I told him what I thought and he suddenly leapt into
the air with joy, like a child: 'Also, wirklich, gut?' 
[So it was really good?]. Such a titan, and so 
unsure of himself." -Sviatoslav Richter, on Carlos Kleiber

It seems possible that his drive for perfection could have
also been driven by his insecurities. Striving for perfection
and achieving perfection are not always the same things.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

1996D said:


> How long did they practice exactly?
> It's not just his interpretation that's better, but the musicians simply play for him like it's their last time playing. Of all the conductors his performances are the most perfect and technically proficient.... ....everything he does fits perfectly and the musicians play otherworldly.
> 
> Was anyone here there to see him rehearse?


I didn't see Kleiber rehearse or conduct live. I bought tickets for his second concert in Amsterdam in the eighties (Brahms), but it was cancelled

To come back to your question on rehearsal time. Kleiber demanded and got excessive rehearsal time. There is footage of him rehearsing and it is most interesting to see. Despite his many rehearsals, in his live performances he was admired for the freshness of the sound. I think you can see from how he talks with the musicians, that he got them to play like they did. He gave them images and comparisons to explain the structure of the music in great detail and so he could structure a piece like no other.

He gave electrified performances (so they say), which are however scarcely recorded. After Tristan (DG) he sadly never recorded in the studio again. He walked away from the recording sessions, when they were almost finished and of course already made huge cost. DG then managed to use a recorded rehearsal to complete the editing and issued the work on disc (as we may thank them for). Kleiber was however so annoyed with this, which caused his decision to stop recording in a studio.

Musically he was famous for his beautiful natural transitions in music. Listen to ouvertures of Der Freischutz or Die Fledermaus and you can hear it. I also recommend his Carmen, as issued on DVD. The incredible energetic start of the ouverture!

Interesting is that (apparently) Herbert von Karajan suggested Kleiber to succeed him at the BPO, I don't know when this was and if at all true. This would have been a great idea and we can only imagine how that would have worked out. But Kleiber didn't seem the right man to be Chief conductor, which job includes more then only conducting. Kleiber and Karajan were opposites in commercial and public life, but both were known to be perfectionists in music and there was a lot of mutual respect and admiration, so the story goes.

As Kleiber never gave interviews and rarely performed, there are a lot of myths about him. There is an interesting book with correspondence of an American student with Kleiber ("Corresponding with Carlos"), which shows us a very informal humorous and lively picture of the man. Also, Kleiber regularly visited concerts, already when he virtually stopped conducting himself.

Kleiber was known as a musician's musician, widely admired by his peers. At the end of it, it is only sad for us that he only rarely conducted and even less recorded.

This documentary, along with the one above in this thread, are worthwile looking at if you want to understand more of him. The best you can do is purchase his collected recordings on CD and or DVD (DG) and there are some nice additional live concerts on CD, especially the 4th and 6th Beethoven and of course the two new years concerts. I guess the Austrian Broadcasting Company must have been very nervous if at all he would appear and conduct on new years day. I guess they had a substitute stand by.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> I didn't see Kleiber rehearse or conduct live. I bought tickets for his second concert in Amsterdam in the eighties (Brahms), but it was cancelled
> 
> To come back to your question on rehearsal time. Kleiber demanded and got excessive rehearsal time. There is footage of him rehearsing and it is most interesting to see. Despite his many rehearsals, in his live performances he was admired for the freshness of the sound. I think you can see from how he talks with the musicians, that he got them to play like they did. He gave them images and comparisons to explain the structure of the music in great detail and so he could structure a piece like no other.
> 
> ...


I have seen this documentary on German television before, it leaves many questions behind.
Many years ago I was in a record shop and got into conversation with a teacher at the conservatory.
I told him it was a real shame that there were no more recordings with Carlos Kleiber. He replied that Kleiber was suffering from schizophrenia. It could be an explanation even though I have never seen this confirmed.

Please I won't things stir up


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Bourdon said:


> I have seen this documentary on German television before, it leaves many questions behind.
> Many years ago I was in a record shop and got into conversation with a teacher at the conservatory.
> I told him it was a real shame that there were no more recordings with Carlos Kleiber. He replied that Kleiber was suffering from schizophrenia. It could be an explanation even though I have never seen this confirmed.
> 
> Please I won't things stir up


I don't know about the mental condition of Carlos Kleiber, as I didn't treat him as a doctor.

And I think we might as well call him normal, in response to the madness and hypocrisy of the music industry

I think that the question about his musical genius was answered in his legacy and in the response of his peers. Indeed, such a shame that he didn't leave more recordings. But there are many musicians out there with much bigger production but only a small impact. Quantity and quality are not the same.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bourdon said:


> I have seen this documentary on German television before, it leaves many questions behind.
> Many years ago I was in a record shop and got into conversation with a teacher at the conservatory.
> I told him it was a real shame that there were no more recordings with Carlos Kleiber. *He replied that Kleiber was suffering from schizophrenia.* It could be an explanation even though I have never seen this confirmed.
> 
> Please I won't things stir up


Probably not but he definitely did have BPD due most likely to his relationship with his father. Mind you, he is not alone among musicians who have BPD


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

NLAdriaan said:


> I don't know about the mental condition of Carlos Kleiber, as I didn't treat him as a doctor.
> 
> And I think *we might as well call him normal, in response to the madness and hypocrisy of the music industry*
> 
> I think that the question about his musical genius was answered in his legacy and in the response of his peers. Indeed, such a shame that he didn't leave more recordings. But there are many musicians out there with much bigger production but only a small impact. Quantity and quality are not the same.


Very true.

There is a discrepancy between his so-called reluctance against conducting and the joy on his face while he is conducting


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## Kollwitz (Jun 10, 2018)

This BBC radio documentary from 2009, 'Who was Carlos Kleiber?', is very interesting. Features interviews with four people who knew him - one of them the author of 'Corresponding with Kleiber'. Placido Domingo is another. Sheds light on a very complex character.


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## Bourdon (Jan 4, 2019)

DavidA said:


> Probably not but he definitely did have BPD due most likely to his relationship with his father. Mind you, he is not alone among musicians who have BPD


And there is also the rumour that Alban Berg could be his father.


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## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

Bourdon said:


> And there is also the rumour that Alban Berg could be his father.





Bourdon said:


> He replied that Kleiber was suffering from schizophrenia. It could be an explanation even though I have never seen this confirmed.
> 
> Please I won't things stir up


Maybe not, but it seems you're giving it a good shot.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

CnC Bartok said:


> Tempting to experiment with the latter....:devil:
> 
> I do feel sorry for Lorin Maazel. To be voted best ever ever ever by Classic FM, where the FM stands for "F%#k Me, this is Kitsch", puts him in a select group of greatest pianist ever ever ever: Lang Lang; greatest violinist ever ever ever: Andre Rieu; And greatest composer ever ever ever, John Rutter.
> 
> Ho hum.....


Thank you so much for this post. I snorted my tea out of my nose. Classic FM have the most lacklustre playlist I have ever had the misfortune to hear. If I never hear Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade again it will be a day too soon. I do believe he composed other stuff!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Kollwitz said:


> This BBC radio documentary from 2009, 'Who was Carlos Kleiber?', is very interesting. Features interviews with four people who knew him - one of them the author of 'Corresponding with Kleiber'. Placido Domingo is another. Sheds light on a very complex character.


This does explain partly his lack of activity. A possible manic-depressive driven by a perfectionism he got from a demanding father? When you hear how worked up he got before a concert, you wonder he conducted at all.
There is also, however, in these men a complete lack of grip on reality. You cancel after 36 rehearsals - what sort of carry on is that? What about the musicians playing under you? What if the second violin decided to cancel? They don't have that luxury. My son is a professional musician so I know how he feels about people who cancel like that.


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## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

It speaks volumes that after Karajan died, and everyone was jockeying to get the plum Berlin Phil job - Abbado, Barenboim, Maazel, etc - the BPO sent a small delegation to CK _asking_ him to nominate. And he'd conducted the orchestra, what, just once or twice? What more do you need to know?
Graeme


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GraemeG said:


> It speaks volumes that after Karajan died, and everyone was jockeying to get the plum Berlin Phil job - Abbado, Barenboim, Maazel, etc - the BPO sent a small delegation to CK _asking_ him to nominate. And he'd conducted the orchestra, what, just once or twice? What more do you need to know?
> Graeme


I would certainly trust the musicians of the BPO who had been trained under Karajan to know a good conductor. Apparently Karajan and Kleiber had a mutual admiration / respect society going and always addressed each other as 'master' in their correspondence. When Karajan died, Kleiber appeared at his grave saying. "He was the one I admired most." Probably Karajan would have returned the compliment.

Good article

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2011/07/the-great-unknown/


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

This is an interesting documentary. Probably posted before but here it is again


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Marvelous 1992 New Years Vienna Concert. I can't say enough about it. Such beautifully clean, natural, and articulate playing under his guidance. Completely uplifting in spirit. I'm finding him an extraordinary conductor and highly rewarding. I wouldn't underestimate the extraordinary artistry and perfection of some of these New Years favorites.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Marvelous 1992 New Years Vienna Concert. I can't say enough about it. Such beautifully clean, natural, and articulate playing under his guidance. Completely uplifting to the spirit. I'm finding him an extraordinary conductor and a total delight.


Please also take a look and listen to the first new year's concert of 1989 and to this:





If you manage to have the VPO sound as vivid like this:clap::clap: Also, a few incredible and typical Kleiber transitions already in this shortcut ouverture, the entire video is on DVD.


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Larkenfield said:


> Marvelous 1992 New Years Vienna Concert. I can't say enough about it. Such beautifully clean, natural, and articulate playing under his guidance. Completely uplifting in spirit. I'm finding him an extraordinary conductor and highly rewarding.







Here you find rehearsal footage for the 1992 new years concert, you can see for yourself what kind of spirited, sensitive and humorous personality Kleiber was. Not many 'maestro's' would act as he did and no one matches his fresh uplifting energetic sound.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

This video, which has subtitles, shows an interesting long rehearsal with performance of Die Fledermaus, conducted by a young Kleiber.






This one shows an older Kleiber at the New Year's concert conducting the same piece.

He has a certain charisma, doesn't he? Much more restrained than the over-the-top ostentation of Bernstein or Dudamel, but less reserved than the austerity of Karajan.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

He was an incredible conductor but a troubled soul. Some of his recordings were magical (LvB 5&7, Brahms 4). Wish the guy had lived much longer and left us with more.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

I saw him conduct Otello a couple of years into the start of my opera-going and and the (Royal Opera) orchestra just sounded better than any I'd heard before, there was just a sheen to the sound if that makes sense. I wish I could add more at a technical level.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't think anyone doubts his prowess as a conductor or what they might doubt is his ability to stick at things and build something like Karajan at Berlin, Reiner at Chicago, etc., especially in later life. He appeared too many times just to opt pout when things were not perfect for him. Even the DG recording of Tristan is made up of takes as he walked out before it was finished. So as a musician he was without peer but there's a character he was seriously flawed. A striving for excellence is an admirable trait - perfectionism, however, is crippling.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> Marvelous 1992 New Years Vienna Concert. I can't say enough about it. Such beautifully clean, natural, and articulate playing under his guidance. Completely uplifting in spirit. I'm finding him an extraordinary conductor and highly rewarding. I wouldn't underestimate the extraordinary artistry and perfection of some of these New Years favorites.


Kleiber here gives the finest reading I've ever heard of one of the most inspired of waltzes, Josef Strauss's "Village Swallows." Listening to it, I felt its kinship with Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony.


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

Brahms 4th on DG-wonderful and yet the performance of Brahms 2nd with the VPO I once watched on YT was not particualrly remarkable!


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## NLAdriaan (Feb 6, 2019)

Don Fatale said:


> I saw him conduct Otello a couple of years into the start of my opera-going and and *the (Royal Opera) orchestra just sounded better than any I'd heard before*, there was just a sheen to the sound if that makes sense. I wish I could add more at a technical level.


You're lucky to have heard Kleiber live in concert! I think it defines Kleiber that he could reach new heights with an orchestra he just only occasionally conducted. He didn't need years to do this, he just did it.


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