# Wagner fans......why do you like Wagner?



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Talking about his operas, of course. :tiphat:

Why do you like/love them?

I love them.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Because I'm taken to another place whenever I listen to his music. I find it so beautiful, moving and exciting.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Wagner - - - - the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of The Romantic Soul. Its mission: to explore in new ways strangely familiar worlds - worlds of ecstasy, pain, longing, hope and heroism - to seek out and renew half-forgotten archetypes of life, deeper than the mundane trappings of civilization - to boldly go where no music drama has gone before.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Our modern society is fast-paced, attention-deficit, aesthetically ugly, constantly "wired-in" with millions of people on "social networks" all screaming for attention for this or that meaningless thing they did. Retreating in the evening with four hours of generously paced drama set to music of an otherworldly richness is the highest form of luxury imaginable.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Our modern society is fast-paced, attention-deficit, aesthetically ugly, constantly "wired-in" with millions of people on "social networks" all screaming for attention for this or that meaningless thing they did.


It probably seems less ugly to its enthusiastic participants, who are legion. Not me, though. I don't even own a telephone!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

KenOC said:


> It probably seems less ugly to its enthusiastic participants, who are legion. Not me, though. I don't even own a telephone!


The dominant modern aesthetic trend seems to be sterile simplicity. The cure is German High Romanticism.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Couchie said:


> The dominant modern aesthetic trend seems to be sterile simplicity. The cure is German High Romanticism.


Simplicity? When everyone has a PC and a smart phone? When everyone (in the west) can listen unbridled to music on tap? I think you need to go to a village in Africa to know what simplicity means.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Couchie said:


> Our modern society is fast-paced, attention-deficit, aesthetically ugly, constantly "wired-in" with millions of people on "social networks" all screaming for attention for this or that meaningless thing they did.


You know, you are on TalkClassical...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> The dominant modern aesthetic trend seems to be sterile simplicity.


There would seem to be four alternatives available.

- Sterile simplicity
- Septic simplicity
- Sterile complexity
- Septic complexity

I guess maybe we should take a vote?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Simplicity? When everyone has a PC and a smart phone? When everyone (in the west) can listen unbridled to music on tap? I think you need to go to a village in Africa to know what simplicity means.


This is for Wagner fans telling why they love Wagner. Any positive contributions please?


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## expat (Mar 17, 2013)

Because it's the gift that keeps on giving. Something new with every listen.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Because he made operas on interesting subjects with exceptional wonderfull beautiful music.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Itullian said:


> why do you like Wagner?


Because I'm afraid that if I won't like him, Gestapo will knock at my door.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

KenOC said:


> There would seem to be four alternatives available.
> 
> - Sterile simplicity
> - Septic simplicity
> ...


Start a poll please.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

The music...is like no other music.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner's music is intoxicating - it goes directly to the solar plexus . But it's also music that challenges your intellect as well as your emotions .


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Wagner's music is a natural high - who needs drugs when you listen to it ? Not that I've ever used them or would even want to .


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

The music has the most amazing, most entrancing builds. Themes fold together to create a world. The orchestra prefigures vocal lines, and then echoes them. The climaxes and finales are rich and feel organic. This is dense music, but it is also enticingly lovely.

I did not have much time for opera and found much about it distancing (that's most of what opera is, after all) without finding a way in. Wagner's overtures, preludes, and other orchestral extracts and arrangements showed me the way, kept me listening, exploring.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Wagner has written the most purely sensual music I have ever known. It burns with liquid fire, stings like ice, plunges like a swirling flood, bleeds and throbs with erotic warmth, shimmers luminously, carrying all of my senses on a glorious journey in which all time is forgotten. It is utterly world-embracing yet utterly transcendent. And when the music has ended, I know that I will never be the same.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Gee, where do I start??? Well, let me just mention *Luxuriously Colourful Orchestration* - A kaleidoscopic explosion that dazzles the mind...


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## TxllxT (Mar 2, 2011)

I never get enough of Wagner, ...the famous Viennese Secession architect Otto Wagner...


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

Itullian said:


> This is for Wagner fans telling why they love Wagner. Any positive contributions please?


Whenever I listen to Wagner, I am seized by an overwhelming desire to invade Poland. Does that count?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Celloman said:


> Wagner has written the most purely sensual music I have ever known. It burns with liquid fire, stings like ice, plunges like a swirling flood, bleeds and throbs with erotic warmth, shimmers luminously, carrying all of my senses on a glorious journey in which all time is forgotten. It is utterly world-embracing yet utterly transcendent. And when the music has ended, I know that I will never be the same.


Like this?






But it's not just music that is off the orgasm scale. His overall output seems to cover the whole range of human emotion and experience. This gives me tingles every time I hear it (in almost any recording):






And don't forget he also wrote his own librettos, but I will leave commenting on his poetry for another time.

N.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2015)

Triplets said:


> Whenever I listen to Wagner, I am seized by an overwhelming desire to invade Poland. Does that count?


Only if you're Woody Allen...!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

TxllxT said:


> I never get enough of Wagner, ...the famous Viennese Secession architect Otto Wagner...


Quick! Shut that door before Robert and Lindsay walk in.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

expat said:


> Because it's the gift that keeps on giving. Something new with every listen.


Exactly. I also love that I grow through his works. I was just listening to Gotterdammerung. When I first started listening to the Ring, I would also skip the Norns in the beginning....now I love that part.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

the conte said:


> like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


amazing.......................


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

gellio said:


> Exactly. I also love that I grow through his works. I was just listening to Gotterdammerung. When I first started listening to the Ring, I would also skip the Norns in the beginning....now I love that part.


Love the Norns.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> Love the Norns.


Me too. Their music is so beautiful. I really love the whole Ring. I'm trying to listen to more of my recordings, so have listened to a lot of Rheingold lately, which I often neglect. It, itself, is amazing, and it's the 4th best part of the Ring


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

gellio said:


> Me too. Their music is so beautiful. I really love the whole Ring. I'm trying to listen to more of my recordings, so have listened to a lot of Rheingold lately, which I often neglect. It, itself, is amazing, *and it's the 4th best part of the Ring *


I don't know about that. I listen to it a lot and think it's incredible.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The prelude and opening scene of _Rheingold_ is an astonishing inspiration - fresh, shining, magical - like nothing ever composed before. Wagner creates new worlds and makes us feel they've always existed, waiting to be discovered. I think it's because they do exist already, somewhere deep in the human psyche. When Vaughan Williams saw and heard _Die Walkure_ for the first time, he said that he felt as if he had known the music of the opening scene all his life. It was new to his ear, but familiar to his soul.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Because he takes me to a different place, an ideal, magical, glorious one. If Asgard and Valhalla - the home of the gods, existed for real, they would be like a setting out of a Wagner opera. 

Because he heals my soul from all her troubles. While the music sounds, the world is as it should be, if only for a few hours.

Because in the five years that I've been a Wagnerian, a lot of good things have happened in my life. And while Wagner was not exactly the direct cause of all these good things, he provided inspiration for at least some of them. My life sort of runs to a sountrack of Wagner's music.


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## Stirling (Nov 18, 2015)

He add the Double Bass to the orchestra, instead of a string quartet.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Stirling said:


> He add the Double Bass to the orchestra, instead of a string quartet.


You'll find double bass parts much earlier, e.g. in Beethoven's orchestral works, and the instrument is used in Schubert's "Trout" Quintet.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> The prelude and opening scene of _Rheingold_ is an astonishing inspiration - fresh, shining, magical - like nothing ever composed before. Wagner creates new worlds and makes us feel they've always existed, waiting to be discovered. I think it's because they do exist already, somewhere deep in the human psyche. When Vaughan Williams saw and heard _Die Walkure_ for the first time, he said that he felt as if he had known the music of the opening scene all his life. It was new to his ear, but familiar to his soul.


Well said! I agree with that. I listen to the prelude to Rheingold as much as anything else in The Ring. One of my favorite moments.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> The prelude and opening scene of _Rheingold_ is an astonishing inspiration - fresh, shining, magical - like nothing ever composed before. Wagner creates new worlds and makes us feel they've always existed, waiting to be discovered. I think it's because they do exist already, somewhere deep in the human psyche. When Vaughan Williams saw and heard _Die Walkure_ for the first time, he said that he felt as if he had known the music of the opening scene all his life. It was new to his ear, but familiar to his soul.


Love it.
The openings and endings to all his acts are amazing too.


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I like Wagner because of awesome preludes like Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Tannhauser etc. and now I'm even beginning to like the actual operas. Compare those preludes for instance with *Beethoven*'s pathetic Wellington's victory! Much much better.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Dim7 said:


> I like Wagner because of awesome preludes like Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Tannhauser etc. and now I'm even beginning to like the actual operas. Compare those preludes for instance with *Beethoven*'s pathetic Wellington's victory! Much much better.


If only he were alive to receive such a compliment.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I like Wagner because of awesome preludes like Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Tannhauser etc. and now I'm even beginning to like the actual operas. Compare those preludes for instance with *Beethoven*'s pathetic Wellington's victory! Much much better.


Although if you compare Beethoven's ninth with Das Liebesverbot...

N.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I don't know if I like Wagner in general, but I am thrilled with Der fliegende Hollander (right near the top of my list) and also like Meistersinger.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I don't know if I like Wagner in general, but I am thrilled with Der fliegende Hollander (right near the top of my list) and also like Meistersinger.


If you've gotten that far, the other operas will come. Given the climate of Detroit, you should have plenty of time indoors to listen to them while the snow falls.

:tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> If you've gotten that far, the other operas will come. Given the climate of Detroit, you should have plenty of time indoors to listen to them while the snow falls.
> 
> :tiphat:


Unfortunately, I have to push the snow shovel a lot around here.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Lohengrin ...........................


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tannhäuser ...................................


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Tristan und Isolde.................................. :angel:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Dim7 said:


> I like Wagner because of awesome preludes like Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Tannhauser etc. and now I'm even beginning to like the actual operas. Compare those preludes for instance with *Beethoven*'s pathetic Wellington's victory! Much much better.


Makng comparisons like this speaks of irony or desperation! :lol:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Tristan und Isolde.................................. :angel:


This comes later


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Makng comparisons like this speaks of irony or desperation! :lol:


It's definitely irony, not desperation.


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## gardibolt (May 22, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I like Wagner because of awesome preludes like Tristan und Isolde, Parsifal, Tannhauser etc. and now I'm even beginning to like the actual operas. Compare those preludes for instance with *Beethoven*'s pathetic Wellington's victory! Much much better.


Beethoven made more money off Wellington's Victory than anything else he ever wrote, so he's literally laughing to the bank.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

gardibolt said:


> Beethoven made more money off Wellington's Victory than anything else he ever wrote, so he's literally laughing to the bank.


Well, he _was _laughing to the bank, now he's just de_composing_.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

DiesIraeCX said:


> Well, he _was _laughing to the bank, now he's just de_composing_.


I believe the original quote was (I think) with Beecham, who, when asked by a somewhat clueless lady, "How is your friend, Mr Bach, is he still composing?" replied, "No Madam, he is decomposing!"


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## Fat Bob (Sep 25, 2015)

DavidA said:


> I believe the original quote was (I think) with Beecham, who, when asked by a somewhat clueless lady, "How is your friend, Mr Bach, is he still composing?" replied, "No Madam, he is decomposing!"


One of those quotes that may be apocryphal because I have read that ascribed to W.S. Gilbert.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Here is a question. I am modestly familiar with Wagner operas, mainly Hollander, Meistersinger, and Lohengrin. Lohengrin is different from the other two I mentioned. Based on my few listens to Lohengrin I keep thinking of Wagner when I listen to the clips from this Strauss opera. Why?


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

I keep reading the title as "Wagner fans...... do you like Wagner?"


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Those great orchestral preludes, and the characters are Gods, giants, and dwarfs. These are archetypes of the collective unconscious. Plus the Schopenhaur influence, which adds a touch of depressing Buddhism.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

SixFootScowl said:


> I don't know if I like Wagner in general, but I am thrilled with Der fliegende Hollander (right near the top of my list) and also like Meistersinger.


I need to provide an update. I have listened to and watched on DVD all 10 of Wagners main operas and like them all. Wagner's music is AWESOME! He is one of my favorite opera composers!

Ha I have 5 and a half DVD sets of the Ring, at least 5 each of Lohengrin and Meistersinger, several Tristan and Isolde, and at least one each of the rest. You might call me a Wagner fan!


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

My road to Wagner was not sudden. My first exposure would've been around 1999 on a large opera box set. I most vividly recall liking the Meistersinger prelude, but nothing else. It definitely stuck with me. I learned in college, around that time, about Wagner's treatment of the orchestra and harmony. However my ears were more receptive to Mozart than anything else. I would often dip my feet into other composers work but Mozart was the true music of endless joy to me... especially his vocal music.

By 2015 I was familiar with some of his preludes including Tristan, Lohengrin, Rienzi, although not quite Tannhäuser. In the spring of 2015 I bought the Deutche Grammaphone Wagner box set based on an amazon review which stated, ["If I was in college I would've jumped at this box set"]. Even though I didn't have much money I coughed up the appx. 65$ for all 13 of his operas... now the cheapest one on Amazon sells for $116. I tried listening to Tristan and others but as a whole the operas didn't really do much for me, until...Parsifal. That was the life changer.
Everything about Parsifal was deeply moving, especially when I first heard the Transformation music in act 1. The singing on the Solti set is immaculate to these ears, especially the Vienna Boys choir. Parsifal was the key that opened up all the other music dramas for me.

So what is it about Wagner? First, IMO, I don't classify him as a composer and I find it more than annoying when folks compare him to true composers. For me he is first and foremost an Artist of the highest caliber. He took the limited musical talents he had and made incredible music out of his tools and understanding. Here is a man that truly valued art. He also wrote incessantly and wasn't afraid to speak his mind. A rare bird these PC days. I actually bought his essays to peruse and believe me they are quite profound (although I think the English probably doesn't translate well). This leads me to a crucial point-

As an English speaker with little ability to understand foreign languages the voice in any given German or Italian opera truly becomes another instrument. Listening to opera is quite emotional to me because I hear in the execution, melody, and phrasing the heart of the character singing as opposed to what they are literally saying. I almost never read the translation because the words pale to the actual melody and voice. Couple that with an endless thread of music where the beat is super fluid, no recitatives, and a vast assortment of instrumental colors created by the Master that my interest is almost always intact. I don't have to me awed by every 4th bar like other composers. It is important to note that the way he handled rhythm and beat has made it difficult to go back to music that is so heavily anchored to the beat. His music has taught me a lot about how to listen to music... especially studying different conductors and singers.

So now I don't dwell on his preludes but rather the large scale picture evoked through any one of his given acts. Historical recordings of his are my favorite. How blessed we are to have so
much music at our disposal these days.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I'm a new Wagnerian, having heard the Ring for the first time in January. Like many who are just getting into him, I'm utterly captivated by the richness of the music and the superb construction of the drama. But one thing I haven't cracked yet - being able to sit through a complete Wagner opera without frustration! This week I heard _Parsifal_ for the first time, and though I enjoyed it, when I was done I was somewhat mystified. The whole sprawling structure of the work didn't seem to make sense - the moments of rapturous music seemed to be occasional; with long, dry stretches of accompaniment to even dryer monologues scattered in between. Then, the next day, I sampled some "bleeding chunks" from the other operas and was transfixed. There really is nothing like the opening and ending of _Rheingold_, Act 3 of _Siegfried_, _Siegfried's Funeral March_, the prelude to _Tristan_, and the Transformation Music of _Parsifal[/I ever written. It shoots me up into a higher plane of ecstasy every time. But taken as a whole, I can find his operas bloated and unbearingly long. I wish he could tame his ego a little bit and write more concise dramas. But I'm learning, and I'm sure the seasoned Wagnerian instructors of this forum would be willing to give advice to a young pupil who loves many elements of the master's art, but is truly perplexed at how one can consistently sit through (and enjoy!) such monstrous works Do you really find enjoyment in every moment of, say, Parsifal and Walkure (two operas that I almost found myself falling asleep in certain parts)? Or do you find that the true fulfillment comes from the rare but ecstatic musical high points and climaxes? In other words, how does one train oneself to see the "big picture?" In all fairness, I haven't heard Tristan in full, and haven't even touched Meistersinger and the earlier operas._


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> In other words, how does one train oneself to see the "big picture?".


I don't think there is an easy answer to that. All of our listening habits are different. This day and age so many of us have been conditioned to hear music in very small bits- I grew up listening to rock n roll. It has taken a long time to train my ears away from the rigid beat and elementary melodic invention to the fluidity of a Wagnerian act. For instance, with Parsifal I was enamored with act 1 but couldn't bring myself to listen to the first half of act 3- now act 3 stands as a paramount of western music IMO. The way Wagner has the music hanging by a thread at times only to recover on a semblance of a normal beat is quite profound. It can only be understood within the big picture of the preceding 15-20 min and then the build up to the karfreitagzauber. It truly ebbs and flows.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

> As an English speaker with little ability to understand foreign languages the voice in any given German or Italian opera truly becomes another instrument. Listening to opera is quite emotional to me because I hear in the execution, melody, and phrasing the heart of the character singing as opposed to what they are literally saying. I almost never read the translation because the words pale to the actual melody and voice. Couple that with an endless thread of music where the beat is super fluid, no recitatives, and a vast assortment of instrumental colors created by the Master that my interest is almost always intact. I don't have to me awed by every 4th bar like other composers. It is important to note that the way he handled rhythm and beat has made it difficult to go back to music that is so heavily anchored to the beat. His music has taught me a lot about how to listen to music... especially studying different conductors and singers.


I think you bring up a great point here. Mostly when listening to opera, I discard the libretto and just enjoy it as pure music. But with Wagner, I've always had the idea that the libretto is absolutely essential, since it is his own original poetry. So I've been following along. But rather than appreciating the marriage of text and music, I find myself waiting impatiently for the next line to be spoken - I think there was like a 6-line monologue from Guernemanz in Act 3 of _Parsifal _ that took 6 minutes to deliver. So maybe I should just familiarize myself with the story, sit back, and let the magic wash over me.

Also, as long as I'm speaking with a veteran Wagnerian, you mentioned you prefer historical recordings. What are some good ones? I'm aware that the Furtwangler Tristan and Ring and the Knappertsbusch Parsifals are revered, but are there any others you would recommend to someone relatively new like me? I'm very tolerant of old sound and performance practice BTW.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

It took me a while to really warm up to Wagner (didn't happen until after university, although I did listen to him as a teen), but the music is magnificent. It was the Boulez/Chéreau Ring that really hooked me, precisely because it shows those gods and heroes as flawed and human. Then I saw a (fantastic) semi-staged Ring and the next year a semi-staged Parsifal. It was really a whole other dimension.

Wagner certainly needs patience (and you should be well-rested for it), but it's very rewarding.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> But with Wagner, I've always had the idea that the libretto is absolutely essential, since it is his own original poetry. So I've been following along.
> 
> Also, as long as I'm speaking with a veteran Wagnerian, you mentioned you prefer historical recordings. What are some good ones? I'm aware that the Furtwangler Tristan and Ring and the Knappertsbusch Parsifals are revered, but are there any others you would recommend to someone relatively new like me? I'm very tolerant of old sound and performance practice BTW.


I believe Wagner would agree with your approach to listening and understanding the poetry and all of its implications. One day I plan on delving more into the libretto, perhaps when I have a bit more time.

As for historical recordings, first and foremost I recommend the Herz/Muck Parsifal recordings on Naxos. Equally important, IMO is the Flagstad/Melchior duets on RCA. That CD is heaven on earth. Come to think of it, the Flagstad/Melchior duets opened up Tristan and Lohengrin for me beyond the Preludes. I can go on, but those two I cannot recommend enough.


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Sieglinde said:


> Wagner certainly needs patience (and you should be well-rested for it), but it's very rewarding.


Very well said, it has been a wonderful journey.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> I'm a new Wagnerian, having heard the Ring for the first time in January. Like many who are just getting into him, I'm utterly captivated by the richness of the music and the superb construction of the drama. But one thing I haven't cracked yet - being able to sit through a complete Wagner opera without frustration! This week I heard _Parsifal_ for the first time, and though I enjoyed it, when I was done I was somewhat mystified. The whole sprawling structure of the work didn't seem to make sense - the moments of rapturous music seemed to be occasional; with long, dry stretches of accompaniment to even dryer monologues scattered in between. Then, the next day, I sampled some "bleeding chunks" from the other operas and was transfixed. There really is nothing like the opening and ending of _Rheingold_, Act 3 of _Siegfried_, _Siegfried's Funeral March_, the prelude to _Tristan_, and the Transformation Music of _Parsifal[/I ever written. It shoots me up into a higher plane of ecstasy every time. But taken as a whole, I can find his operas bloated and unbearingly long. I wish he could tame his ego a little bit and write more concise dramas. But I'm learning, and I'm sure the seasoned Wagnerian instructors of this forum would be willing to give advice to a young pupil who loves many elements of the master's art, but is truly perplexed at how one can consistently sit through (and enjoy!) such monstrous works Do you really find enjoyment in every moment of, say, Parsifal and Walkure (two operas that I almost found myself falling asleep in certain parts)? Or do you find that the true fulfillment comes from the rare but ecstatic musical high points and climaxes? In other words, how does one train oneself to see the "big picture?" In all fairness, I haven't heard Tristan in full, and haven't even touched Meistersinger and the earlier operas._


_

Most of us begin in Wagner with the overtures, preludes and orchestral interludes. For some that's as far as it goes, but those splendid excerpts function in the large schemes of the operas as preparations, transitions, summations, and climaxes. Really coming to grips with Wagner's music dramas is not like listening to self-contained musical compositions, and the rightness and power of his extended structures may require repeated exposure and time to dawn on us. Wagner was a master musical dramatist in being able to find music to express the finest nuances of feeling, and in being able to probe the deep meaning and trace the emotional trajectory of a dramatic situation; his orchestra's ceaseless transformations and interweaving of themes tell a story which his librettos only suggest. If his peaks of passion and excitement grab you, stay with him and return to him, and as you get to know what he's doing musically the valleys will fill with richness of meaning and seem more inspired than you suspected at first. For many of us, some of Wagner's greatest moments are precisely the quiet ones in which a character's intimate feelings are exposed, the subtle tensions or unsuspected implications of a situation are illuminated, or the simple beauty of a setting is painted. The grand narrative is rich in beautiful vignettes, magically bound together. I wouldn't make the claim that every moment of every Wagner opera is equally interesting in itself, but then neither is every moment of Hamlet or Romeo and Juliet. The structure of the whole is strong and compelling, it carries us through, and the journey satisfies.

Some people are able to digest the operas whole on first exposure. I was one of the lucky ones: the first time I heard Parsifal I simply disappeared from planet earth for four and a half hours, and didn't get my feet back on the ground for hours thereafter. Of course it took much longer to come to grips with what I'd experienced, which, I think, is what makes Wagner different from all other opera composers. Interpreting Wagner is like interpreting your dreams: you're never quite sure whether that cigar was just a cigar._


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Music Snob said:


> So what is it about Wagner? First, IMO, I don't classify him as a composer and I find it more than annoying when folks compare him to true composers. For me he is first and foremost an Artist of the highest caliber. He took the limited musical talents he had and made incredible music out of his tools and understanding. Here is a man that truly valued art. He also wrote incessantly and wasn't afraid to speak his mind. A rare bird these PC days. I actually bought his essays to peruse and believe me they are quite profound (although I think the English probably doesn't translate well). This leads me to a crucial point-
> 
> As an English speaker with little ability to understand foreign languages the voice in any given German or Italian opera truly becomes another instrument. Listening to opera is quite emotional to me because I hear in the execution, melody, and phrasing the heart of the character singing as opposed to what they are literally saying. I almost never read the translation because the words pale to the actual melody and voice. Couple that with an endless thread of music where the beat is super fluid, no recitatives, and a vast assortment of instrumental colors created by the Master that my interest is almost always intact. I don't have to me awed by every 4th bar like other composers. It is important to note that the way he handled rhythm and beat has made it difficult to go back to music that is so heavily anchored to the beat. His music has taught me a lot about how to listen to music... especially studying different conductors and singers.
> 
> ...


These are really interesting comments. Wagner once remarked that without a great dramatic/poetic theme to inspire him, he was only a mediocre composer. An extraordinary admission for the composer of some of the most epoch-making scores in the history of the art! It's hard to deny that when he did have his inspiration, he was capable of taking music to the heights. Richard Strauss said that in Wagner music reached its highest capacity for expression, and Mahler wrote in a letter that "there are only him [Beethoven] and Richard [Wagner], and after them - nobody." With all of that said, we shouldn't understate the technical mastery of the craft that Wagner achieved. He was an immense sponge, able to absorb and apply as needed musical ideas from the great composers going back through the centuries; it's been said that the score of _Parsifal_ is a summation of Western music up to that time, as well as a premonition of things to come.

Increasingly, Wagner used rhythm as he used melody and harmony: freely and fluidly, without rigidity. The elements of music were a dramatic language for him, not bricks in abstract structures; they had to follow and portray the free flow of feeling. Their lack of regularity, rhyming and symmetry caused some consternation at first, with people saying he had destroyed melody. He retorted that he was writing "endless melody" (about which Stravinsky remarked that a melody that never ended should never have begun in the first place). When Wagner does use conspicuously metrical rhythms for any duration he has a dramatic purpose in doing so. Like you, I found this subordination of rhythm to the flow of feeling amazing, while realizing that few composers could get away with it.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> These are really interesting comments. Wagner once remarked that without a great dramatic/poetic theme to inspire him, he was only a mediocre composer. An extraordinary admission for the composer of some of the most epoch-making scores in the history of the art! It's hard to deny that when he did have his inspiration, he was capable of taking music to the heights. Richard Strauss said that in Wagner music reached its highest capacity for expression, and Mahler wrote in a letter that "there are only him [Beethoven] and Richard [Wagner], and after them - nobody." With all of that said, we shouldn't understate the technical mastery of the craft that Wagner achieved. He was an immense sponge, able to absorb and apply as needed musical ideas from the great composers going back through the centuries; it's been said that the score of _Parsifal_ is a summation of Western music up to that time, as well as a premonition of things to come.
> 
> Increasingly, Wagner used rhythm as he used melody and harmony: freely and fluidly, without rigidity. The elements of music were a dramatic language for him, not bricks in abstract structures; they had to follow and portray the free flow of feeling. Their lack of regularity, rhyming and symmetry caused some consternation at first, with people saying he had destroyed melody. He retorted that he was writing "endless melody" (about which Stravinsky remarked that a melody that never ended should never have begun in the first place). When Wagner does use conspicuously metrical rhythms for any duration he has a dramatic purpose in doing so. Like you, I found this subordination of rhythm to the flow of feeling amazing, while realizing that few composers could get away with it.


Just in addition, I think that Wagner's fondness of drama and theatre since childhood was one of the key factors that made his operas so immensely good (Geyer probably played his part here). If I recall correctly then his initial interest in opera came from his wish to put one of his plays into music - being a talented playwright and a composer at the same time enabled his operas to convey an utmost mastery in both music and drama at the same time. I think you cannot have a really great top-tier opera if these two things are not combined (when the plot is shallow, or even worse, the music is uninspired).


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## Music Snob (Nov 14, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> With all of that said, we shouldn't understate the technical mastery of the craft that Wagner achieved. He was an immense sponge, able to absorb and apply as needed musical ideas from the great composers going back through the centuries; it's been said that the score of _Parsifal_ is a summation of Western music up to that time, as well as a premonition of things to come.


I recommend to anyone to buy the score to Parsifal or Gotterdammerung. The complexity is mind boggling even if the music sounds simple at times like in the prelude to Parsifal. I remember following in the score the very first phrase in Parsifal with great difficulty. Interestingly the music starts on the second beat. No conductor that I heard followed the rhythm of the score perfectly without allowing the music to breathe- all in the first four measures. Then when the flutes are introduced they are playing in a completely different time signature. With all that said complexity means naught without the music or art stirring the heart and soul.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I ask this of Woodduck - How long, W., how long ‘till this thread self-destructs?


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

Barbebleu said:


> I ask this of Woodduck - How long, W., how long 'till this thread self-destructs?


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Do you really find enjoyment in every moment of, say, _Parsifal_ and _Walkure_ (two operas that I almost found myself falling asleep in certain parts)?


Yes, every note!

But it's extremely performer and recording-dependent. Many (most?) recordings are deadly dull in the sections where Wagner is delivering large chunks of backstory in very long expositions. I find this true of many of the most popular and recommended recordings. Solti's or Karajan's Rings for instance--those recordings are fantastic in the catchy parts of the operas but often quite dull in the non-catchy parts.

To me, the outstanding recordings for keeping my interest throughout every note of the Ring are the Bohm, the 1950 Furtwangler, the 1953 Krauss, the 50s Keilberths--however, I can't abide Astrid Varnay, the Brunnhilde in the Krauss and the Keilberths, so I personally almost exclusively listen the Bohm and the Furtwangler nowadays.

A great Gurnemanz performance is key to a Parsifal recording that doesn't drag--I recommend recordings with Kurt Moll, Hans Hotter or Robert Lloyd, those are the Gurnemanz performers that are so good, they make me think those parts are the best parts of the opera.

I don't think there are any perfect Parsifal recordings--the Kubelik comes closest but Bernd Weikl's Amfortas is a little disappointing. I like listening to the outer movements of the Karajan--he's got the best Gurnemanz and Amfortas (probably the two most important roles for those two acts) but maybe the worst pair of singers for the Parsifal and Kundry on record, so Act 2 is a trial. The 1962 Knappertsbusch is rightly celebrated, but I don't like London's Amfortas much more than I like Weikl's on the Kubelik, and I prefer Moll/King/Minton in the Kubelik over Hotter/Thomas/Dalis in the Knappertsbusch by a small but significant margin.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Music Snob said:


> I recommend to anyone to buy the score to Parsifal or Gotterdammerung. The complexity is mind boggling even if the music sounds simple at times like in the prelude to Parsifal. I remember following in the score the very first phrase in Parsifal with great difficulty. Interestingly the music starts on the second beat. No conductor that I heard followed the rhythm of the score perfectly without allowing the music to breathe- all in the first four measures. Then when the flutes are introduced they are playing in a completely different time signature. With all that said complexity means naught without the music or art stirring the heart and soul.


The piano-vocal score of _Parsifal_ sits on my piano, where I can dip into it at leisure. Interestingly, Puccini kept his score of it there too, to inspire him when he felt he need.

Much is rightly made of the innovativeness and influence of _Tristan_ in the history of music, and Wagner knew he would never duplicate its white-hot intensity, but I've always found _Parsifal_ the most extraordinary of his works for its integration of diverse elements, its subtle harmony and orchestration, its economy and concentration, its perfectly balanced form, and its sheer magic in evoking a complete, imaginary world.

As you point out, the magic begins right at the beginning, with a melody that arises from nowhere and slowly ascends with no discernible pulse, acquires a distinct rhythm only at its climax where its ascent breaks in a gesture of pain, and then trails off into gentle, comforting pulselessness again. The melody's suspension of time sets us up for the same feeling which the whole opera will create for us, and its shape embodies the plot's emotional trajectory in microcosm, beginning and ending in the timeless domain of the Grail, but undergoing a crisis right at its center in Klingsor's deadly garden. Even more remarkably, the melody juxtaposes two motifs Wagner uses throughout the opera: the motif of Christ's (and thus mankind's) suffering which breaks out at the very height of the melody's ascent, and the rising four-note figure immediately following which is associated with the sacred spear. The sequence of these two motifs, embedded in the music of the Grail's grace, suggests the spear's ultimate role as an instrument of healing. We're given a musical summation of the opera to come in a single unaccompanied melody lasting 40 seconds!

Such subtleties of musical dramatization show Wagner's mastery of his art, his imaginative grip on his poetic material and musical techniques, to be at its highest peak in his old age. But we find such inspired ideas, convincingly carried out, throughout his work. Discovering them can be the pleasant, and often astonishing, work of a lifetime.


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## Spy Car (Nov 15, 2017)

Barbebleu said:


> I ask this of Woodduck - How long, W., how long 'till this thread self-destructs?


Fadendämmerung? LOL.

As a parenthetical note, if anyone had asked me who my "musical god" was from the age of 4 or 5 until nearly 60 (almost 2 years ago), it would have been an instant answer. Bob Dylan. No question.

Now, it might be a more complicated response. I have become completely enthralled with the work of Richard Wagner. I've been lurking--and learning--from the good people here and feel I know you all, even if I'm unknown to you (beyond helping complete someone's Knappertsbusch Parsifal collection  ).

I'd like to than the collective members/regulars who have contributed to the Historic Wagner thread. I've read and re-read the thread multiple times. When I started reading much of meant little to me--other than serving as a signpost to works, conductors, and singers with whom I was unfamiliar.

Now, after two years listen avidly and amassing a huge collection that I'm still working through, these are peronalities I've gotten to know. And music that I relish.

If asked why I love Wagner's works, I might be overwhelmed in trying fashion an adequate response. The short answer is the music provokes a a deep emotional response in me. I'm moved. Swept away. I find Wagner's works both transcendent and sublime.

Parsifal--in particular--reaches me, but so many masterpieces. What a genius.

Is anyone else watching The Ring cycle on the Met Opera Stream during Wagner week? Looking forward to Die Walküre this evening. So kind of the Met to open up a free live stream during this crisis.

I hope you all stay safe. Thanks to all for helping educate me as you bantered amounst yourselves. I appreciate it.

Bill (out of lurking)


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Spy Car said:


> As a parenthetical note, if anyone had asked me who my "musical god" was from the age of 4 or 5 until nearly 60 (almost 2 years ago), it would have been an instant answer. Bob Dylan. No question.


Welcome! Barbebleu is a big Dylan guy too, and I count myself a fan (although I've been a little lax in the last couple of years--I haven't picked up any of his albums since Shadows in the Night, and I think I'm like half a dozen Bootleg Series volumes behind).


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Spy Car said:


> Fadendämmerung? LOL.
> 
> As a parenthetical note, if anyone had asked me who my "musical god" was from the age of 4 or 5 until nearly 60 (almost 2 years ago), it would have been an instant answer. Bob Dylan. No question.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the circus. There's a lot to like about this forum. There's a lot one can learn! But there is a dark side! No names, no pack-drill. They know who they are. I concur about Bob. He's my other main man.

I'm currently listening to a fabulous recording of Tristan from Glasgow 1973. Especially resonant for me as I was sitting in row B, seat 25 at this particular performance. It is available from Opera Depot.

Incidentally the Kna was unfortunately incomplete. I still live in hope that Bavarian radio has a complete recording lurking in the vaults.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Why do *I* love Wagner?

Because some of the music transports me, because it's beautiful; some if it is stirring because of the orchestration. Some of his music has been used for favorite films, where the music suited the images (_Excalibur_, for instance). Partly the legends he borrowed move me or thrill me, like some of the music. Sometimes the grandness and majestic qualities please me, and if played by a superb orchestra, it is fabulously satisfying. My favorite is *Lohengrin* with its sublime score, and those wonderful tenor sounds in the chorus. Solti's *Der Ring des Nibelungen*, of course. The *Tannhäuser* overture an early favorite.

I don't like _everything_ Wagner. There are operas I can't sit through, though I won't name them for fear of being tarred and feathered. And I don't or won't put up with historic recordings, or mono. This music *must* have the greatest sound possible, or be gimmicked up by Andrew Rose (Flagstad/Fürtwangler La Scala). Give me the Wiener Philharmoniker anytime, too!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Sort of...Catharsic feeling. When you listen.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

It lifts you into another world. The mythology, the incredible music, the great voices.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

You never finish with Wagner. He keeps revealing new things to you.


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## Parsifal1954 (May 6, 2013)

What I'm going to say drives professional musicians crazy since the majority of them believe music is an end to itself. I love Wagner's works because he didn't believe in this. His works is a combination of music, philosophy, literature, theater, politics, psychology, religion, culture, etc. Some say they can enjoy his music without the knowledge of his ideas. That's true. Millions like the Ride of the Walkure. But this is not understanding Wagner. One has to know it all. You cannot separate his writings, his libretti, his philosophy from his music. We only have Shakespeare at that level.


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