# Beethoven sacred music



## arkiv1111

In your opinion, which is the most solid work?


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## Rogerx

Christ on the Mount of Olives", solid or not, it's my very favourite . EMI Gedda and Deutekom.


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## Kreisler jr

I wonder what "other" work is there besides the two masses and the oratorio. The funeral cantata for Emperor Joseph?


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## marlow

I can’t see why anyone would vote for anything apart from the late Missa Solemnis, by far Beethoven’s greatest sacred work


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## Kreisler jr

Of course, it's no contest. I admittedly hardly know Christus am Oelberg and I find the C major mass underrated but op.123 is a stunning and "cosmic" work that leaves everything else by Beethoven (and most other composers) far behind.


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## ORigel

I haven't listened to "Christ on the Mount of Olives." The consensus is that it's a mediocre work.

I find the C Major Mass unremarkable.

I love the Missa Solemnis, especially the Credo and Sanctus.

My favorite sacred work of Beethoven's is the *Heiliger Dankgesang.*

In case Heiliger Dankgesang doesn't count, I voted for Missa Solemnis and other.


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## ORigel

Kreisler jr said:


> I wonder what "other" work is there besides the two masses and the oratorio. The funeral cantata for Emperor Joseph?


Heiliger Dankgesang, the central movement of his Fifteenth String Quartet.


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## Rogerx

ORigel said:


> I haven't listened to "Christ on the Mount of Olives." The consensus is that it's a mediocre work.
> 
> I find the C Major Mass unremarkable.
> 
> I love the Missa Solemnis, especially the Credo and Sanctus.
> 
> My favorite sacred work of Beethoven's is the *Heiliger Dankgesang.*
> 
> In case Heiliger Dankgesang doesn't count, I voted for Missa Solemnis and other.



That first line, The consensus is that it's a mediocre work.
By whom I ask you polite, I would judge it on his own merits, not what others say.


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## Kreisler jr

ORigel said:


> Heiliger Dankgesang, the central movement of his Fifteenth String Quartet.


This is neither sacred nor a work. It's one movement from a secular instrumental work. Even if there was a tradition to use it to accompany services or similar occasions like for Barber's Adagio (which is not the case, AFAIK), it would not qualify for this poll.


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## bagpipers

Mass in C ,not just Beethoven but my favorite Mass overall.Although I love the old A capella Tallis and Byrd Masses as far as a more modern and larger scale Mass in C is my favorite


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## bagpipers

Kreisler jr said:


> This is neither sacred nor a work. It's one movement from a secular instrumental work. Even if there was a tradition to use it to accompany services or similar occasions like for Barber's Adagio (which is not the case, AFAIK), it would not qualify for this poll.


I don't know,it's the central movement of the work and the full title is "Solemn song of thanksgiving from a convalescent to his diety" Beethoven had wacky spirituality for his day but would not be uncommon today.I can see Heiliger Dankgesang as a sacred work with a little imagination.


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## RICK RIEKERT

bagpipers said:


> Beethoven had wacky spirituality for his day but would not be uncommon today.


The impact of the Enlightenment certainly affected Beethoven's religious views. Instead of basing his spirituality on faith, Beethoven's spirituality was, as with most people of the time, founded on the rationale of the Enlightenment. Beethoven was well versed in the teachings of Michael Sailer, the Jesuit theologian and philosopher who had the greatest influence on German Catholicism in Beethoven's day. Beethoven read several of Sailer's works and referred to him often. Sailer taught a "spiritual active religion" and believed that religion should be rationally thought out. The teachings of Sailer are perhaps best reflected in Beethoven's _Missa solemnis_. Beethoven echoes Sailer's teachings when he wrote that his main goal in writing the Missa was "to awaken and permanently instill religious feelings not only in the singers, but also into the listeners." 

Other aspects of Beethoven's spirituality included Greek mythology, Deism, Pantheism, and an interest in Indian religions, all of which were not unusual for his time. The multi-faceted and eclectic nature of Beethoven's religion allowed him to envision a different God at different times in his life. These eclectic tendencies confused some of his more conventional contemporaries, as they sometimes do ours, but they probably did not consider Beethoven's spirituality to be any more "wacky" than the man himself.


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## Kreisler jr

The quartet movement might have spiritual content but it is nevertheless only one movement (this would probably be my main reason why it cannot be a sacred work) of a multi-movement instrumental work that happens to have a fancy title and chorale character (like without fancy titles a number of other classical/romantic slow movements, e.g. the one in Beethoven's 9th symphony or quartet op.59/2) but it's still not a sacred work, even in an extended sense. Haydn's 7 last words or Biber's Rosary sonatas might be sacred instrumental music but they have either a history or titles that make this far more clear than the Beethoven. I wouldn't accept Mendelssohn's 5th symphony (or its last movement) or the Parsifal prelude as sacred works either.


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## marlow

One of the problems the Missa Solemnis has had over the years has been it’s extreme difficulty to perform, especially given its length. Choirs have therefore been discouraged from performing it until comparatively recently with the advent of professional or semiprofessional choirs. It’s only recently we’ve discovered what a great work it is when perform properly


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> The quartet movement might have spiritual content but it is nevertheless only one movement (this would probably be my main reason why it cannot be a sacred work) of a multi-movement instrumental work that happens to have a fancy title and chorale character (like without fancy titles a number of other classical/romantic slow movements, e.g. the one in Beethoven's 9th symphony or quartet op.59/2) but it's still not a sacred work, even in an extended sense. Haydn's 7 last words or Biber's Rosary sonatas might be sacred instrumental music but they have either a history or titles that make this far more clear than the Beethoven. I wouldn't accept Mendelssohn's 5th symphony (or its last movement) or the Parsifal prelude as sacred works either.


In some cases, it's more about the context, rather than the nature of the music.





(K. Anh 235e) Mozart would surely have done this sort of stuff avidly if he was paid enough for it. (The opera itself was composed in hurry to pay off a debt he owed to Puchberg)



Mozart - Coronation Mass K317 - Programme Notes


"Perhaps the most obvious reason for the mass's popularity in Prague in 1791/2 was the uncanny similarity between the soprano solo Agnus Dei and the Countess's aria Dove sono from Figaro which had been so successful there in the 1780's."

Also, btw, some lieder at the time were written as "secular hymns" (eg. MH588)


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## Kreisler jr

I would accept the Gellert lieder by Beethoven that are either secular hymns or spiritual lieder  as sacred music (although borderline). But not the Dankgesang. If Beethoven had had the fancy to put a title like "choral" or "in nomine domini" on the slow movement of op.59/2 or the "Pathetique" sonata would this also be sacred? 
Later on people made choral versions with text (not sure if sacred but vaguely funeral related) of the allegretto from the 7th symphony! This doesn't make it sacred music, only because someone else later used it in this way.


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## sheri2022

Missa Solemnis is the best piece of music I've listened to, It's so haunting, complex, terrifying and apocalyptic.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> If Beethoven had had the fancy to put a title like "choral" or "in nomine domini" on the slow movement of op.59/2 or the "Pathetique" sonata would this also be sacred?
> Later on people made choral versions with text (not sure if sacred but vaguely funeral related) of the allegretto from the 7th symphony! This doesn't make it sacred music, only because someone else later used it in this way.


Of course, they never did it in their era with any of the works you mention cause they're not compatible with liturgical context the way the Neapolitan style does with opera in the 18th century. There's a reason why K.Ahn235e came into being. The quintet from La Clemenza di Tito would have made for a fine Crucifixus. The Benedictus from K.257 would have made for a fine vocal quartet in opera. Mozart and the others all knew this in composition.
And I said "In some cases", btw.


hammeredklavier said:


> *In some cases*, it's more about the context, rather than the nature of the music.


Christer Malmbergs värld - Musik - Klassisk musik - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart "Since opera was the foremost musical genre of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it is hardly surprising that operatic elements should have found their way into the sacred music of the time. This caused the development of the "stilus ecclesiasticus mixtus" or mixed church style, which combined traditional contrapuntal choruses with coloratura solo arias and ensembles. This development began mainly in Naples, hence the term Neapolitan Mass. The imposing solemn Mass or Missa solemnis split the text of the Ordinary of the Mass into separate pieces, like the individual numbers in an opera, a practice which contemporary theoreticians such as Johann Joseph Fux and Meinrad Spiess opposed. They were unable however to arrest the development of this genre, with its leanings towards pomp and showiness."


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## Pasqualati

Gellert songs Op. 48 (1802).


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## Rogerx

Pasqualati said:


> Gellert songs Op. 48 (1802).



Good choice, shame so few recordings, welcome on the forum by the way.


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## RobertJTh

Pasqualati said:


> Gellert songs Op. 48 (1802).


Oh God, "Die Himmel Rühmen". Beethoven's most popular choral work (with amateur choirs anyway) that isn't even a choral work.
Or, almost as popular "Die Vesper", a really bizarre arrangement (not by Beethoven) of the adagio from the Sextet op. 81


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