# Opera recommendations



## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

I just got into opera, and so far I've only listened to the Ring, which I absolutely loved. I've also listened to the first act of Tristan und Isolde. I have to admit it slightly bored me except for some bits. I would now like to try some different operas. What would you recommend?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Try Verdi's Rigoletto. My first opera. You'll find it rather more entertaining than the Ring I think. Tristan is hard going for the beginner imo although I know some disagree.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

If you like the ring and you want to try something else by Wagner, then I would suggest Lohengrin, might be a good next step. I would also suggest Pagliacci by Leoncavallo who was a great admirer of Wagner and Turandot by Puccini. You are on the start of a great adventure.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Wagner's _Lohengrin_ seconded. On the Italian side, Puccini's _La Bohème_ might be a good next step or, if you fancy something more overtly thrilling, _Tosca_.


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

DavidA said:


> Try Verdi's Rigoletto. My first opera. You'll find it rather more entertaining than the Ring I think. Tristan is hard going for the beginner imo although I know some disagree.


Ignore what I just said about Tristan, I just listened to the second act


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

Also what do you think of the other Wagner operas such as Parsifal and Meistersinger?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^They're awesome. What else.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2018)

Meistersinger is probably where you might want to go next, after the Ring.

I have to admit, the first act of Tristan und Isolde ain't as good as 2 and 3!


You might also be interested in checking out some Strauss, Puccini, Janacek and Berg for post-Wagner operas:

Salome
Elektra
Tosca
Jenufa
Wozzeck


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Beethoven: Fidelio
Rossini: William Tell
Rossini: Otello
Rossini: Elisabetta Regina d'Inghilterra
Verdi: La Traviata
Bizet: Carmen

If you like those and want to try some Mozart later, The Marriage of Figaro and Don Giovanni are both good choices.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Verdi - Otello
Mussorgsky - Boris Godunov 
Borodin - Prince Igor
Britten - Peter Grimes, A Midsummer Night's Dream

And another vote for Parsifal. Beautiful music!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

For something similar to Wagner, try Strauss' Die Frau ohne Schatten.

Wagner's Der Fliegende Hollander is awesome.

Can't lose with Donizetti's Maria Stuarda.

My favorite is Bellini's La Sonnambula. 

Oh there is so much more.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

pianoville said:


> Ignore what I just said about Tristan, I just listened to the second act


I also find Acts 2 and 3 of Tristan more engaging than Act 1--there's a lot of exposition in Act 1.

Natural next steps are more Wagner--I'd suggest Parsifal and Meistersinger, my two favorite Wagner operas, and therefore my favorite operas period.

If you're interested in sampling some Italian opera, I'd go for Verdi's Otello or Don Carlo, Puccini's Turandot or Fanciulla del West. You also might try Debussy's Pelleas et Melisande or some Strauss--Salome is a good place to start.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

Averagely unknown operas from France and Russia I reccomend to study and listen:

Massenet: _Hérodiade, Thaïs_, _La Navarraise_ & _Manon_
Enescu: _Oedipe_
Gounod: _Faust_

Mussorgsky two operas
Tchaikovsky: _Pique Dame_
Prokofiev: _War and Peace_

_Pique Dame, Faust_ and _Manon_ have interesting love stories. _La Navarraise_ is French Verismo. Mussorgsky sounds like himself but his powerful scores can remember the mood of the Ring. Enescu's _Oedipe_ is a Greek tragedy with the 20th century advances of opera orchestration that can prove both tough and aweinspiring. _Hérodiade_ is much better sung than written in libretto. _War and Peace_ makes _Eugen Onegin_ unnecessary, plus you have a dense and thoughtful libretto from the best Tolstoy.

It's easy to stay in the Italian world forever, and there's plenty of material, but if you liked the Ring, try to explore the German, Russian and French repertoire before. Not every Italian opera is going to sound like _Macbeth._

Take your time with Wagner. It would be a pity you never escaped from him once you listen to his entire work.

I also support _Pélleas et Mélisande,_ but I don't think it's an opera for beginners. Debussy's contemporaries, even Wagner conductors such as Gustav Mahler didn't even think _that_ was "music", so _il n'était pas heureux_. On the other hand, is Mahler a symphonist for beginners? :lol:

Ps: this forum knows I'm not a fan of _Les Troyens._


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

Granate, what do you think is the difference between italian opera and german opera?


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Granate said:


> I also support _Pélleas et Mélisande,_ but I don't think it's an opera for beginners. Debussy's contemporaries, even Wagner conductors such as Gustav Mahler didn't even think _that_ was "music", so _il n'était pas heureux_. On the other hand, is Mahler a symphonist for beginners? :lol:


Pianoville already said she/he loves the Ring and is being won over by Act 2 of Tristan, so I don't really think Pelleas is too outre for her/him. If he/she had said they loved Carmen or Nozze or something, and wanted more suggestions, then I would have picked other recommendations. I frankly don't understand those who responded to Pianoville's post by listing a bunch of Rossini or relatively obscure Russian operas.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I don´t think the first act of Tristan und Isolde is that bad the dull part would be King Marke´s lament.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I don´t think the first act of Tristan und Isolde is that bad the dull part would be King Marke´s lament.


Your Wagnerian membership card is revoked.


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

Sloe said:


> I don´t think the first act of Tristan und Isolde is that bad the dull part would be King Marke´s lament.


Was hör ich? (get the reference?  )


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

howlingfantods said:


> Your Wagnerian membership card is revoked.


As there should be one. I really like the first act of Tristan känd Isolde.


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

Just listened to the 3rd act of Tristan. By the end I was in tears. I might even like it more than the Ring which I can sometimes feel is a little too long. (Even though the end of Götterdämmerung is also very moving)


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

pianoville said:


> Granate, what do you think is the difference between Italian opera and German opera?


I don't know where you come from and what languages do you speak, but Italian feels for me much closer than German or Russian. But language is less important in this matter than music and libretti. _Fidelio, Il Barbiere, Don Giovanni, Carmen_ (all set in Seville), _Il Trovatore_ (Zaragoza and the North) and _Parsifal_ (Hypothetical North and South) are all different works set in Spain, yet their librettos and scores are entirely different. They all have different stories to tell and the composers have set particular 'moods' for the work that have great much more influences from the country's musical culture and author's style than the land it is set in.

So far, like you, I feel really confortable in the big orchestral mass legacy that Wagner left in the history of opera, not counting all the masterpieces that were done outside his style. Shakespearean influences can put in common Verdi and Wagner: one for taking two theatre works for libretti, and the other as an author to learn from and apply to his own libretti.

I'm sure I spoiled everything I wanted to say and didn't synthetise. Each composer has his or her own signature when it comes to libretti and scores. If you like Wagner, you may be more ready to explore the early and mid 20th century operas because the theatrical part is quite developed. I thought both Mussorgsky and Prokofiev would be interesting to you. Rimsky-Korsakov is also a very good opera composer.

Because you seemed to have started by Wagner (and like it, which didn't happen to me at first), many composers could sound demodé or boring to you; because his libretti, more or less admirable, are one of a kind and product of a game-changing concept of opera.

By the way, if you are into Wagner opera, why don't you look at the main Wagner CD threads like Historical Wagner Recordings and all the Opera on CD individual threads? I'm myself in a small vacation from listening and I've been revisiting 5 _Meistersingers,_ 5 _Parsifals,_ 6 _Tannhäusers_ and 6 _Rings_ are following.


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## pianoville (Jul 19, 2018)

Granate said:


> By the way, if you are into Wagner opera, why don't you look at the main Wagner CD threads like Historical Wagner Recordings and all the Opera on CD individual threads? I'm myself in a small vacation from listening and I've been revisiting 5 _Meistersingers,_ 5 _Parsifals,_ 6 _Tannhäusers_ and 6 _Rings_ are following.


6 rings?! How do you have the time?


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

pianoville said:


> 6 rings?! How do you have the time?


Having one gap year and studying Graphic Design is a sure way to get bored listening to the entire Opera discography of the 20th century _Mwahahahahahaha._ Don't count that I listened to 5 straight Meistersingers when the other time I listened to 15 in a row and in mono. Funniest thing is that it is my least favourite Wagner opera and lasts for more than 4 hours each.



DavidA said:


> Granate said:
> 
> 
> > *Definetely my least favourite Wagner opera, and one work I would not return to.* I'm lucky I have done this challenge and found the two mono recordings that I can be satisfied with the most. Not only they are good, they are affordable!
> ...


Remind me that I still have to write 4 full Tchaikovsky Opera articles


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

pianoville said:


> Just listened to the 3rd act of Tristan. By the end I was in tears. *I might even like it more than the Ring which I can sometimes feel is a little too long. *(Even though the end of Götterdämmerung is also very moving)


Interesting. I was having the same thought the last time I listened to Tristan. And I don't mean the ring is too long in any artistic sense, it is just that it's great length makes it less accessible than Tristan. I love the length of the Ring but that is its own enemy hindering people from spending more time with it. In fact, my favorite ring is Goodall which clocks in around 17 hours or about 2 to 3 hours longer than most any other ring.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Granate said:


> Having one gap year and studying Graphic Design is a sure way to get bored listening to the entire Opera discography of the 20th century _Mwahahahahahaha._ Don't count that I listened to 5 straight Meistersingers when the other time I listened to 15 in a row and in mono. *Funniest thing is that it is my least favourite Wagner opera and lasts for more than 4 hours each.
> *
> 
> Remind me that I still have to write 4 full Tchaikovsky Opera articles


You are not alone… I have 6 or 7 MS, five are still originally sealed. Huge opera, but I can't listen it. All these long arias -monologues drive me crazy. One MS and after it i must listen 5 Tannhäusern, 5 Luisa Miller and 5 Damnations to be feet again, :lol:


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

Since the Wagner appeals to you, I would try a post-Wagnerian, Richard Strauss, and of all his operas, _Der Rosenkavalier_ has got to be the most popular (or beloved might be a better term). Try the DVD conducted by the amazing late conductor Carlos Kleiber with the Bayerisches Staatsorchester, a wonderful traditional production by Otto Schenk and starring Gwyneth Jones as the Marschallin, Brigitte Fassbaender as Octavian, and Lucia Popp as Sophie. If you find it tough sledding at first, just listen to the concluding trio before you start.

And here's another concert rendition of that, with Kathleen Battle, Frederika von Stade, and Renée Fleming, from 1992.






Enjoy!

Kind regards, :tiphat:

George


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sloe said:


> I don´t think the first act of Tristan und Isolde is that bad the dull part would be King Marke´s lament.


A major yawn. There is a version of the concert duet Wagner arranged from Tristan with Stemme and Domingo which ends without the boring Marke monologue. I'd advise that for people starting. It is really good.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> A major yawn. There is a version of the concert duet Wagner arranged from Tristan with Stemme and Domingo which ends without the boring Marke monologue. I'd advise that for people starting. It is really good.


The idea of advising someone to avoid part of an opera because it bores you is bizarre. Not everyone considers Marke's lament a "major yawn"; it's possible that pianoville will be moved by it, as many people are. It's very somber music, of course, and must be sensitively performed by a fine bass. I recommend the superb Martti Talvela in Karl Bohm's 1966 Bayreuth recording. Bohm doesn't let the music sag, and the whole scene emerges as well-shaped and dramatically strong from the shocking surprise of the lovers to Tristan's surrender to his fate at the hands of Melot.

Pianoville has already said that he's being drawn in by _Tristan._ Why the heck would you suggest that he skip over part of it? Oh...that's right. Another chance to take a potshot at Wagner.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

My intention was not to attack Tristan und Isolde I just really like the first act that I think is really exciting if there would be a dull part some parts of every opera is more enjoyable than others it would be King Markes Lament not that it is unlisteanable.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Sloe said:


> My intention was not to attack Tristan und Isolde I just really like the first act that I think is really exciting if there would be a dull part some parts of every opera is more enjoyable than others it would be King Markes Lament not that it is unlisteanable.


You were not 'attacking' anything. You just gave your opinion. Same as mine about Mark's boring monologue. Some people might find it electrifying but I don't. It is an opinion.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sloe said:


> As there should be one. I really like the first act of Tristan känd Isolde.


So do I. In Act One of _Tristan_, Wagner sets himself the extraordinary challenge of finding words and music to express, not the deepest feelings Tristan and Isolde have for each other, but the distortions and disguises their suppressed feelings assume. Rage, fear, depression, despair, bitterness, irony, sarcasm - all brilliantly delineated up to the moment when the pair's cryptic suicide pact goes terribly and gloriously wrong. Probably no composer had ever attempted to express such psychological subtlety beneath the surface of conversation; the lovers speak almost in code, and the music depicts their fluctuating states of mind with surgical precision. I find Wagner to be as potent a musical dramatist in this act as anywhere in his works, and as anywhere in opera.


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