# The Verdi Thread



## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

In which we talk about Verdi and his music.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Which do you think is Verdi's most underrated opera?

I would choose Stiffelio, although its reputation has grown in recent years, it hasn't quite made it into the repertoire. it deserves to be performed as often as Boccanegra, Forza or Ballo in my opinion.

N.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

For the moment I am very fond of Don Carlo in fact I watch it every day.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sloe said:


> For the moment I am very fond of Don Carlo in fact I watch it every day.


I too love Don Carlo and it is interesting how it has gone from rarity to repertoire piece in the last 60 years.

N.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

I love all his work, but by far La Traviata and Don Carlo the most , in that order .


----------



## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Don Carlo for me too with a quick Otello following right behind


----------



## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Among the less performed / recorded operas by Verdi, my favorite is "I due Foscari".


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Pugg said:


> I love all his work, but by far La Traviata and Don Carlo the most , in that order .


We've been picking favourites on another thread, and those two are high on my Verdi list. Along with Otello, the top 3. then add Falstaff, Masked Ball, etc. Rigoletto, oddly, I don't like so much though I love the music, because the story is so unpleasant. I find his despair quite upsetting. Under-rated? I reckon Boccanegra should be performed more than it is. Nabucco seems to get more outings.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> We've been picking favourites on another thread, and those two are high on my Verdi list. Along with Otello, the top 3. then add Falstaff, Masked Ball, etc. Rigoletto, oddly, I don't like so much though I love the music, because the story is so unpleasant. I find his despair quite upsetting. Under-rated? I reckon Boccanegra should be performed more than it is. Nabucco seems to get more outings.


I am also not so fond of the story in Rigoletto. I prefer another Italian opera about a girl living with her father being kidnapped.
Boccanegra is wonderful. There are so many operas that should be more performed that Boccanegras popularity is fine. I think Alzira, Stiffelio, Giovanna d'Arco and Atilla could be performed more often.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> We've been picking favourites on another thread, and those two are high on my Verdi list. Along with Otello, the top 3. then add Falstaff, Masked Ball, etc. Rigoletto, oddly, I don't like so much though I love the music, because the story is so unpleasant. I find his despair quite upsetting. Under-rated? I reckon Boccanegra should be performed more than it is. Nabucco seems to get more outings.


As I said ; _I like them all_ and yes I am aware of the other thread, only I participate in another thread in the opera section 
Forza and Otello are high on my list also.:tiphat:


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Don Carlo. Don Carlo. DON CARLO! What is it about that opera? I love it, many others here do too. And I don't really have a version preference either (though I'll always give the edge to Italian over French...)


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Interesting; never before have I read so much *Don Carlo* love on this forum, until after I decided in one listen that this is my very favorite opera. I am pleased that others appreciate the awesomness of this opera. And by that I mean the truly transcendent "In awe of" and not the simple and overused synonym of "cool" :lol:

My other favorites: *Il Trovotore*. The story is not quite as confusing to me as it had been made out to me. Maybe the video production I watched did a good job moving the story? I don't know. I'm no fan of infanticide of course, but I really was moved by the character of Azucena, imagining her fear and panic as she watched her mother burn and rush to do SOMETHING. of course what she DID was evil and reprehensible. But again, I really did get emotionally involved in the story.

And *Aida*....I do love a good Aida!

I think the reason that I love Verdi so much is that he is one of the few opera composers that makes me do what opera is supposed to make you do; get involved with the story. I've enjoyed opera for five years now; and most of the time I didn't feel compelled to go much beyond the synopsis. But Verdi does such a FANTASTIC job of marrying the music to the drama that I get myself sucked in. "I have to know what that dude's singing about!" that I'm reading libretti and watching videos.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

> "I have to know what that dude's singing about!" that I'm reading libretti and watching videos.


I know, and that's what got me hooked on Don Carlo - specifically, the letter scene. "Who is this guy? What is this secret letter? What are they singing about all layered over each other? I need the libretto!"

We probably should have a Don Carlo thread, but then I think someone would complain about duplication of a thread that nobody can find in search...


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

As some of the 'old timers' on here know cos I've been boring everyone ever since I joined the forum, my favourite opera of all time is _Simon Boccanegra_. 

I love all Verdi though and would take a poor production of one the more obscure ones (eg Alzira or I Masnadieri) over most other operas.

One opera I would love to see performed more often and probably my second favourite Verdi is his second opera _Un giorno di Regno_. It's creeping into the standard rep and I would just love to see it live.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

sospiro said:


> As some of the 'old timers' on here know cos I've been boring everyone ever since I joined the forum, my favourite opera of all time is _Simon Boccanegra_.
> 
> I love all Verdi though and would take a poor production of one the more obscure ones (eg Alzira or I Masnadieri) over most other operas.
> 
> One opera I would love to see performed more often and probably my second favourite Verdi is his second opera _Un giorno di Regno_. It's creeping into the standard rep and I would just love to see it live.


:wave:.........................


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> I know, and that's what got me hooked on Don Carlo - specifically, the letter scene. "Who is this guy? What is this secret letter? What are they singing about all layered over each other? I need the libretto!"
> 
> We probably should have a Don Carlo thread, but then I think someone would complain about duplication of a thread that nobody can find in search...


Very important. When you know an opera you don't need the libretto or score, but first time or two I think it is essential. Opera is drama, it's telling a story, it's not like a symphony. Also, it helps you understand the composer's genius to see the little things he (or perhaps she) does to highlight aspects.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

sospiro said:


> As some of the 'old timers' on here know cos I've been boring everyone ever since I joined the forum, my favourite opera of all time is _Simon Boccanegra_.
> 
> I love all Verdi though and would take a poor production of one the more obscure ones (eg Alzira or I Masnadieri) over most other operas.
> 
> One opera I would love to see performed more often and probably my second favourite Verdi is his second opera _Un giorno di Regno_. It's creeping into the standard rep and I would just love to see it live.


I'll add it to the listening pile. I have the recent set of the complete Verdi operas, which is a total treasure, but I have barely got through half. And, a disincentive to unknown operas, it does not have libretti. See post above. (they could have put them together on a CD at the end, as the Callas collection did a few years back.)


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Steatopygous said:


> I'll add it to the listening pile. I have the recent set of the complete Verdi operas, which is a total treasure, but I have barely got through half. And, a disincentive to unknown operas, it does not have libretti. See post above. (they could have put them together on a CD at the end, as the Callas collection did a few years back.)


I'm tempted to get the complete Verdi set but might wait until I see a used version for a good price.

I have all his operas now but started with the wonderful Philips/Gardelli versions mainly because I'm such a fan of Carreras. You might be able to pick up a used version very cheaply and at least you'll have the libretto.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

sospiro said:


> I'm tempted to get the complete Verdi set but might wait until I see a used version for a good price.
> 
> I have all his operas now but started with the wonderful Philips/Gardelli versions mainly because I'm such a fan of Carreras. You might be able to pick up a used version very cheaply and at least you'll have the libretto.


I am not sure whether this is good news or bad, but those three versions you advocate are precisely the ones in the complete Verdi set. So I already have very good interpretations, but no libretti! Often, but not always, one can find libretti online. Unfortunately my language skills are such that I also need a translation.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Very important. When you know an opera you don't need the libretto or score, but first time or two I think it is essential. Opera is drama, it's telling a story, it's not like a symphony. Also, it helps you understand the composer's genius to see the little things he (or perhaps she) does to highlight aspects.


To have the libretto in front of you or subtitles or surtitles or hear the opera in a language you can understand well is the ideal condition. But it is possible to enjoy an opera without understanding every word or knowing what every scene or aria is about. They do transmit operas on radio with only a brief explanation of what is happening in every act. I liked Simon Boccanegra as much when I only know it is about the doge of Genua who finds his long lost daughter and he dies in the end and I liked it as much after seeing it with subtitles.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sloe said:


> To have the libretto in front of you or subtitles or surtitles or hear the opera in a language you can understand well is the ideal condition. But it is possible to enjoy an opera without understanding every word or knowing what every scene or aria is about. They do transmit operas on radio with only a brief explanation of what is happening in every act. I liked Simon Boccanegra as much when I only know it is about the doge of Genua who finds his long lost daughter and he dies in the end and I liked it as much after seeing it with subtitles.


Well fair enough, and no one can argue with your experience. My own feeling is that to treat opera as absolute music, like a Beethoven symphony, rather than a drama telling a story, is to lose something important. To pick a scene that I have written about before on this forum, the confrontation between king and grand inquisitor in Don Carlos, if you don't know what is happening, you cannot possibly appreciate the power and genius of the music properly. You may pick up that it is powerful, but I think Verdi would prefer you to understand that it is about conflict between church and state, the agony of a father with a rebellious son, and a relentless, merciless ideology. Or maybe it's dangerous to speak for a dead composer, and I should just say I think you'd get more out of it...


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Well fair enough, and no one can argue with your experience. My own feeling is that to treat opera as absolute music, like a Beethoven symphony, rather than a drama telling a story, is to lose something important. To pick a scene that I have written about before on this forum, the confrontation between king and grand inquisitor in Don Carlos, if you don't know what is happening, you cannot possibly appreciate the power and genius of the music properly. You may pick up that it is powerful, but I think Verdi would prefer you to understand that it is about conflict between church and state, the agony of a father with a rebellious son, and a relentless, merciless ideology. Or maybe it's dangerous to speak for a dead composer, and I should just say I think you'd get more out of it...


Then your description of the scene is nearly enough to understand what is happening.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Interesting discussion here... as today I watched a production of Il Trovatore which is an opera where I never really have read the libretto, at least not in full. I mean, I know the plotline and I know what is happening in each scene. I just don't know exactly what the characters are saying to each other, except for the more well-known arias which I have read translations of. (I suppose that someday I will have picked up enough opera-Italian to be able to understand it all!)

In some operas it may be more important to understand the words than others... 

Of course, Verdi librettos are translated into our language if our language is not Italian (or French), so, how do we know we really know what's being said?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm getting into Verdi at the moment. His whole approach appears to me to be vastly superior in character painting then partners than Wagner's. Don Carlo has the most incredible painting of emotions. Powerful stuff!


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Sloe said:


> ... *I liked Simon Boccanegra as much when I only know it is about the doge of Genua *who finds his long lost daughter and he dies in the end and I liked it as much after seeing it with subtitles.


:wave:

:kiss: ...........................


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Bought another Don Carlo yesterday. Guilini and Domingo et al. I never know why Karajan missed off the first act in his recording. Performance I can understand but surely on CD you want all the music Verdi wrote.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

DavidA said:


> I'm getting into Verdi at the moment. His whole approach appears to me to be vastly superior in character painting then partners than Wagner's. Don Carlo has the most incredible painting of emotions. Powerful stuff!


The scene in Don Carlo where the king is alone in his chambers, doubting his queen's affections, doubting himself as a person, is so wrenching. It's glorious in Haitink's recording. And I just love the relationships that Rodrigo has with both Carlo and the king.

I wish Verdi was still alive so I could comission him to write a second opera in Rodrigo's point of view....it would be a fascinating psychological study.

For that matter, I would ALSO another Don Carlo, a historically accurate one focusing more on his descent into madness. And focusing on the king's grief over his struggle as a father as he witnesses this.

Me greedy a little?


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

DavidA said:


> Bought another Don Carlo yesterday. Guilini and Domingo et al. I never know why Karajan missed off the first act in his recording. Performance I can understand but surely on CD you want all the music Verdi wrote.


I just bought that one myself last month. It's the next version I'll listen to. So far I've heard Haitink and Solti. I have not seen a performance yet, I'll check out my local library. I'd love to make Carlo my first live opera experience down the line!


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

I have listened and loved Verdi's Operas more than just about any music these past 30 years. However I can understand those who enjoy the opera's without having read a synopsis. I speak little Italian (and studies show that doesn't help that much) but to be swept along with the force of the music is often enough for me. Sometime I wish surtitles had never been introduced they do distract and they don't follow the rhythm and pace of the libretti. More recently I have travelled to Opera houses where there is no English translation available and hugely enjoyed myself.

That said I've also never regretted growing to know the plots of my favourite works. It's just not essential for me to have that detail.


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

There used to be an association in London called The Amici Di Verdi. It was run with great enthusiasm by a retired ROH Covent Garden "Stage Hand/Carpenter" called Reg Suter. They organised small productions at Blackheath and the Lindbury Theatre, had master-classes and talks and promoted works exclusively by Verdi. I was a member and went to many events and even contributed an article to the Newsletter on the addresses where Verdi stayed during his London visits, but sadly it no longer seems to exist.

http://spazioinwind.libero.it/davidmac/verdiing.html

Reg did produce his own scrapbook of memories of a different time in Opera. It's the only book I've read that doesn't focus exclusively on all the front of house activities.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Reg-Suter/e/B00IYY1I2S

It was loosely affiliated to The Amici di Verdi in Bussetto, who limit their nos to 31(? shocking memory lapse here?) the no of Opera's, including revisions, that Verdi composed. From what I can determine this is an exclusive dining club who's main requirement is that you have a decent voice so you can join in with the after dinner singing!

I do think that one day the web will produce it's own equivalent of these fan clubs.

I would also highly recommend a visit to Busseto, Roncole and Villa Sant'Agata.
http://www.villaverdi.org/

We were in Tuscany on holiday and I was rudely awakened on my 40th birthday by a very early and surprise alarm. My wife had worked out we could drive there and back in the day. We also managed lunch in the hotel owned by the great Verdian Carlo Bergonzi, and were greeted by his son. Memorable.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Belowpar said:


> I can understand those who enjoy the opera's without having read a synopsis. .


Then who would want to avoid reading at least a synopsis after hearing a Verdi opera.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I want a Don Carlo movie. (In Italian please)

The opera has been through so many revisions already that a film adaptation wouldn't hurt too much...

Falstaff is hit or miss for me. You have to have a great Falstaff for it to work or else it gets tedious. I think the recent production with Ambrogio (forget his last name) is a good one to start with if you are a Falstaff newbie.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Well, despite my screen name, Verdi is probably my #1 operatic love. And as far as male voice types are concerned, the Verdi baritone is my favorite, no question. I love all those father characters in Verdi, my favorite so far being Miller in _Luisa Miller_.

_Rigoletto_ is my favorite Verdi opera.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Unfortunately I just find Rigoletto's plot too depressing to manage. But, I am also into the daddy issues. Yes, it's so terribly cliched, but didn't Verdi do it before it was a cliche?

Miller is the rare example of a Verdi dad who doesn't really have any problems (except those caused by others). If you forced me at gunpoint to pick a Verdi character to be my dad, I'd probably pick him too.

Who is Verdi's worst father? I'd have to go with Montforte from I Vespri Siciliani, whose love for his son is genuine (as genuine as this guy can feel about anything, which is probably not much) yet deeply stunted and immature.

King Phillip from Don Carlo is kind of a dick, but we do at least have the privilege of getting into his head. He is caught in the middle of everything too, which is one of the aspects that makes Don Carlo unique - that there's this other layer of "big bad daddy figure" even above him (the Grand Inquisitor).

And then there's Papa Germont... who, in my opinion, is often not carefully cast. It takes more than just any old baritone to properly play him. It ought to be one of those roles where not every singer is a good fit (like Scarpia or Falstaff), but usually it seems to me that as long as the guy can wear old age makeup and a wig, they'll take him. It needs more than just a proper old man - Germont needs to have charisma and persuasiveness or else the whole opera just doesn't work.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> It takes more than just any old baritone to properly play him. .


They can take a young baritone and dye his hair grey.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, unfortunately that's what they often have to do! I guess vocally it's an okay part for a younger baritone, but in terms of the sort of performing experience required, it ought to be one of those roles that is considered a capstone and not just bread-and-butter. But Traviata is performed so often, and the beast needs baritones...


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Interesting discussion here... as today I watched a production of Il Trovatore which is an opera where I never really have read the libretto, at least not in full. I mean, I know the plotline and I know what is happening in each scene. I just don't know exactly what the characters are saying to each other, except for the more well-known arias which I have read translations of. (I suppose that someday I will have picked up enough opera-Italian to be able to understand it all!)
> 
> In some operas it may be more important to understand the words than others...
> 
> Of course, Verdi librettos are translated into our language if our language is not Italian (or French), so, how do we know we really know what's being said?


This wasn't a problem before the days of great big box sets without libretti. The Callas 90-CD EMI set had a CD in it with all the libretti, a good solution. 
But those of us who collected LP opera sets (or CD sets with just one opera in the '80s and after) got copies of the libretti with the music. So I have the libretto for the vast majority of the operas I have on disc. If I don't I can sometimes find it online and listen in my study, reading the libretto on screen. 
To be frank, I am really surprised so many people don't care what is happening, or what is happening in detail. And I think the composers would be surprised too - but then they generally lived before recorded sound (not Puccini, of course). But, as I noted above, it is not for me to tell anyone else how to listen.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sloe said:


> Then your description of the scene is nearly enough to understand what is happening.


Yes but - and I hesitate to point this out - you don't usually have me with you when you listen/go.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Bought another Don Carlo yesterday. Guilini and Domingo et al. I never know why Karajan missed off the first act in his recording. Performance I can understand but surely on CD you want all the music Verdi wrote.


Verdi first wrote his 5-act version for Paris Opera (home of Grand Opera), in French. He later revised it in Italian, with cuts (the first act and the ballet), and in fact revised it a few times. Don Carlos is usually the French five-act version; Don Carlo the four-act Italian version. 
Wiki is your friend here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Carlos


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> They can take a young baritone and dye his hair grey.


I've always felt Germont should look more middle-aged than elderly. I mean, people generally married and had kids at pretty young ages back then, right? And isn't Alfredo only supposed to be 20 or 21 years old? So to me it makes sense that Germont would be, at most, in his mid-fifties. Moreover, the music Verdi gives Germont is quite lyrical and elegant; it needs a firm tone, not a way-past-its-prime voice wobbling through it. So, yes, I feel the better option is to hire a young baritone and make him look old_er_, but not too old.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Graziesignore wrote:
_Who is Verdi's worst father? I'd have to go with Montforte from I Vespri Siciliani, whose love for his son is genuine (as genuine as this guy can feel about anything, which is probably not much) yet deeply stunted and immature.

King Phillip from Don Carlo is kind of a dick, but we do at least have the privilege of getting into his head. He is caught in the middle of everything too, which is one of the aspects that makes Don Carlo unique - that there's this other layer of "big bad daddy figure" even above him (the Grand Inquisitor).
_

If there's one personality type I can't stand, it's that of a religious bigot or tyrant (and I'm a Christian myself). King Philip is this type of character, which is why I've never been able to muster much sympathy for him, despite his sad aria. I don't know _I Vespri Sicliani_ well at all, but isn't Monforte a religious tyrant, too (the real-life Monforte tortured heretics, I believe)?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> Verdi first wrote his 5-act version for Paris Opera (home of Grand Opera), in French. He later revised it in Italian, with cuts (the first act and the ballet), and in fact revised it a few times. Don Carlos is usually the French five-act version; Don Carlo the four-act Italian version.
> Wiki is your friend here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Carlos


Yes I have Abbado's version of the original French which is an interesting set. Verdi himself cut the first act as Carlos was considered too long but there is some glorious music in it. Actually the original French suits the music better than the Italian.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I've always felt Germont should look more middle-aged than elderly. I mean, people generally married and had kids at pretty young ages back then, right? And isn't Alfredo only supposed to be 20 or 21 years old? So to me it makes sense that Germont would be, at most, in his mid-fifties. Moreover, the music Verdi gives Germont is quite lyrical and elegant; it needs a firm tone, not a way-past-its-prime voice wobbling through it. So, yes, I feel the better option is to hire a young baritone and make him look old_er_, but not too old.


It is true that they married young but they married also when they were very old. It is also possible that a man did not marry until he came to a certain position. People also aged faster than nowadays and since Alfredo might be played by a 60 year old tenor I think it is suitable that they try to make an an impression of his father to appear older. King Phillip of Spain was by the way only 32 when he married Elisabeth of Valois who was only 14 as was the real Don Carlos.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I want a Don Carlo movie. (In Italian please)
> 
> The opera has been through so many revisions already that a film adaptation wouldn't hurt too much...
> 
> Falstaff is hit or miss for me. You have to have a great Falstaff for it to work or else it gets tedious. I think the recent production with Ambrogio (forget his last name) is a good one to start with if you are a Falstaff newbie.


Commercially speaking, _a disaster ._
Look what happens to the film made by operas. 
Some never made it to the big screen and went straight into vcr/ vhs


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> Yes but - and I hesitate to point this out - you don't usually have me with you when you listen/go.


I have a good memory.


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

I can get thru about an hour and a half of DC. Then I'm bored stiff.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Steatopygous said:


> Verdi first wrote his 5-act version for Paris Opera (home of Grand Opera), in French. He later revised it in Italian, with cuts (the first act and the ballet), and in fact revised it a few times. Don Carlos is usually the French five-act version; Don Carlo the four-act Italian version.
> Wiki is your friend here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Carlos


Not quite. Verdi later put the Fontainebleau act into the Italian version. I think *Don Carlo* normally refers to the fact that it's in Italian, *Don Carlos* in French. Both Giulini's and Solti's Italian language versions are five acts, Karajan's just four.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> I can get thru about an hour and a half of DC. Then I'm bored stiff.


But you haven't even got to the fantastic Act IV Scene i by then, one of the greatest scenes in all opera. Beginning with Philip's magnificent _Ella giammai m'amo_, moving on through the superb duet for the two basses, then the wonderful quartet and finishing with Eboli's thrilling _O don fatale_, this is one of the best things Verdi ever did.

The opera always ranks very highly with most Verdi enthusiasts.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Wikipedia is helpful for telling all the DC versions apart, particularly the two most performed lengths which are labeled "Milan version" and "Modena version." The five-act, non-ballet version (Modena) is the one that has become more increasingly seen since the mid 20th century. This five-act version is often seen in Italian as well.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> But you haven't even got to the fantastic Act IV Scene i by then, one of the greatest scenes in all opera. Beginning with Philip's magnificent _Ella giammai m'amo_, moving on through the superb duet for the two basses, then the wonderful quartet and finishing with Eboli's thrilling _O don fatale_, this is one of the best things Verdi ever did.
> 
> The opera always ranks very highly with most Verdi enthusiasts.


Awful thing to confess but once Posa dies, I stop the recording. Can't bear all that lovey dovey stuff with Carlo and Elisabetta!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Not quite. Verdi later put the Fontainebleau act into the Italian version. I think *Don Carlo* normally refers to the fact that it's in Italian, *Don Carlos* in French. Both Giulini's and Solti's Italian language versions are five acts, Karajan's just four.


I bought the Abbado French version in a sale dead cheap, then the Guilini Italian (ditto) now today the Pappano (ditto) So I've bought three versions of this marvellous opera for just £16. That's what I call getting a bargain!


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> But you haven't even got to the fantastic Act IV Scene i by then, one of the greatest scenes in all opera. Beginning with Philip's magnificent _Ella giammai m'amo_, moving on through the superb duet for the two basses, then the wonderful quartet and finishing with Eboli's thrilling _O don fatale_, this is one of the best things Verdi ever did.
> 
> The opera always ranks very highly with most Verdi enthusiasts.


The music certainly is wonderful and Verdi's portrayal of human emotions is unsurpassed. Perhaps only Mozart (in a very different way) measures up.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> I can get thru about an hour and a half of DC. Then I'm bored stiff.


You seem to have they same problem as I have with Siegfried Acts 1&2


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Awful thing to confess but once Posa dies, I stop the recording. Can't bear all that lovey dovey stuff with Carlo and Elisabetta!


Oh no! What about Elisabeth's great aria "Tu che le vanita"? Knocked me for six the first time I heard Callas's rendition, and it still does.

I love the duet too. Only the very end is rushed and anti-climactic.


----------



## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

Sloe said:


> King Phillip of Spain was by the way only 32 when he married Elisabeth of Valois who was only 14 as was the real Don Carlos.


And Elisabeth was his third wife - he'd already been widowed twice. His first (Maria Manuela of Portugal) died of complications of bearing Don Carlos, which would be another reason for him to be ambivalent towards his son. His second was Mary Tudor, aka "Bloody Mary", but she isn't relevant to the action. (And Philip had to go to a fourth wife to get a viable heir, since Carlos was quite impossible and he got no sons from Elisabeth.)


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> Unfortunately I just find Rigoletto's plot too depressing to manage. But, I am also into the daddy issues. Yes, it's so terribly cliched, but didn't Verdi do it before it was a cliche?
> 
> Miller is the rare example of a Verdi dad who doesn't really have any problems (except those caused by others). If you forced me at gunpoint to pick a Verdi character to be my dad, I'd probably pick him too.
> 
> ...


I agree totally about Germont needing to have charisma.

What you feel about RIGOLETTO is what I feel about DON CARLO and SIMON BOCCANEGRA. They're both great operas and I do like them, but they're _so sad_. Because of this I have to be in the right mood to experience them; oddly enough, I can listen to RIGOLETTO and LA TRAVIATA just about any time.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I agree totally about Germont needing to have charisma.
> 
> What you feel about RIGOLETTO is what I feel about DON CARLO and SIMON BOCCANEGRA. They're both great operas and I do like them, but they're _so sad_. Because of this I have to be in the right mood to experience them; oddly enough, I can listen to RIGOLETTO and LA TRAVIATA just about any time.


And you do not think Rigoletto were a father has to see his only child die right in front of him or La Traviata were Violetta lies in her bed dying a whole act are sad?


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

OperaMaven said:


> And Elisabeth was his third wife - he'd already been widowed twice. His first (Maria Manuela of Portugal) died of complications of bearing Don Carlos, which would be another reason for him to be ambivalent towards his son. His second was Mary Tudor, aka "Bloody Mary", but she isn't relevant to the action. (And Philip had to go to a fourth wife to get a viable heir, since Carlos was quite impossible and he got no sons from Elisabeth.)


I also read that, quite far apart from in the opera, Elisabeth and Philip had a rather affectionate marriage and appeared to genuinely care for each other.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

(Stuffing fingers in ears) LA LA LAA, I can't hear you...

(I hate it when real life has nothing to do with my favorite opera plots, yet it's so common)

The ending of Don Carlo? Abrupt, far fetched, yet... I have never had a problem with it. It's mysterious and such a contrast to the realistic politics, and yet, totally in line with the themes of the opera. I suppose directors could have a field day with "regie" interpretations of the ending, but even just playing it straight is fine with me. Let's just say in my theoretical Don Carlo movie I would definitely play it straight. Which is to say, mysterious...


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> (Stuffing fingers in ears) LA LA LAA, I can't hear you...
> 
> (I hate it when real life has nothing to do with my favorite opera plots, yet it's so common)
> 
> The ending of Don Carlo? Abrupt, far fetched, yet... I have never had a problem with it. It's mysterious and such a contrast to the realistic politics, and yet, totally in line with the themes of the opera. I suppose directors could have a field day with "regie" interpretations of the ending, but even just playing it straight is fine with me. Let's just say in my theoretical Don Carlo movie I would definitely play it straight. Which is to say, mysterious...


I like the ending.
I hope no director take into consideration that Don Carlos was actually a unruly psychopath.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> And you do not think Rigoletto were a father has to see his only child die right in front of him or La Traviata were Violetta lies in her bed dying a whole act are sad?


Those definitely are sad, but there's a particular _type_ of sadness I associate with DON CARLO and SIMON BOCCANEGRA that's just...different, somehow. I honestly don't know how to describe it, but I know it when I feel it.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Those definitely are sad, but there's a particular _type_ of sadness I associate with DON CARLO and SIMON BOCCANEGRA that's just...different, somehow. I honestly don't know how to describe it, but I know it when I feel it.


I feel a dark, tragic, almost depressive quality in late middle Verdi - after _Traviata_ and before _Aida_ - which for a long time repelled me and kept me from getting to know the operas. I still prefer _Rigoletto_ and _Traviata_, and then _Otello_ and _Falstaff_, on the whole, to most of the works in between, though I've come to appreciate some of the inspired music of that period, especially in _Don Carlo_. Perhaps you've felt something similar.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I think I know what you mean. There is a kind of existential sadness in both those operas. I love the ending of Simon Boccanegra even though it is very sad. In Don Carlo the sadness comes from everyone wanting to do the right thing (Posa, Elisabetta, in the end Eboli, etc) but the right thing still not being done. Posa comforts himself while dying telling Carlo "Regnare tu dovevi" but it's never going to happen. One must take comfort, I suppose, in Carlo being snatched into the hereafter...

I guess for me Rigoletto's ending does not have the same, hm, redeeming quality. It's sort of a "gotcha" ending, very black. But for me also the whole situation is kind of depressing - the nasty court, profligate duke, and of course poor Gilda.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I was reading about Verdi's interest in writing an opera based on King Lear. The libretto in fact was near completion of a first draft! Ahhh what might have been.......


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Wow! That would be even awesomer than an opera of Ben-Hur...


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Sonata said:


> I was reading about Verdi's interest in writing an opera based on King Lear. The libretto in fact was near completion of a first draft! Ahhh what might have been.......


What I always wondered about that was how he would have portrayed Lear's madness and the odd whimsy of his fool. More than _Othello_, which deals with straightforward, very "Latin" passions, _Lear_ is a drama of ideas and words and strange, subtle states of mind, and this may have stymied Verdi, whose work is not fundamentally intellectual. In a way, _Lear_ actually seems more of a natural for the composer of _Tristan und Isolde:_ Tristan's plunge into darkness and lacerating self-analysis in Act 3 is perhaps not so remote from Lear on the heath.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> (Stuffing fingers in ears) LA LA LAA, I can't hear you...
> 
> (I hate it when real life has nothing to do with my favorite opera plots, yet it's so common)
> 
> The ending of Don Carlo? Abrupt, far fetched, yet... I have never had a problem with it. It's mysterious and such a contrast to the realistic politics, and yet, totally in line with the themes of the opera. I suppose directors could have a field day with "regie" interpretations of the ending, but even just playing it straight is fine with me. Let's just say in my theoretical Don Carlo movie I would definitely play it straight. Which is to say, mysterious...


I'm sad to say that I think the ending is dramatically asinine. Musically it's great, and that carries it off (or just about), but the opera has been deep and profound and generally naturalistic until now and ends with a cheap trick. it reminds me of the serials in boys own annuals pre-war, where the hero would end an instalment tied up in a dungeon with the water rising... The next chapter would begin, "and with one mighty bound he was free".


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Well, it's certainly not necessarily the obvious or "best of all
possible endings. (That is to say, I won't attempt a high minded defense of it as the "best, obvious" way to end the opera musically or dramatically.) What do you think would have been a more appropriate ending?


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> What I always wondered about that was how he would have portrayed Lear's madness and the odd whimsy of his fool. More than _Othello_, which deals with straightforward, very "Latin" passions, _Lear_ is a drama of ideas and words and strange, subtle states of mind, and this may have stymied Verdi, whose work is not fundamentally intellectual. In a way, _Lear_ actually seems more of a natural for the composer of _Tristan und Isolde:_ Tristan's plunge into darkness and lacerating self-analysis in Act 3 is perhaps not so remote from Lear on the heath.


I've often read that the closest Verdi actually came to realising his dream of dramatizing Lear was with Rigoletto. As if he had somehow combined the two characters of the loving father and the fool. I'm yet to be convinced.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Well, it's certainly not necessarily the obvious or "best of all
> possible endings. (That is to say, I won't attempt a high minded defense of it as the "best, obvious" way to end the opera musically or dramatically.) What do you think would have been a more appropriate ending?


Fair question, which catches me on the hop. How does Schiller's play end, does anyone know?
It could end with Carlos dying (that wouldn't be unusual in opera), or even reconciliation between father and son. Maybe Carlos being handed over to the inquisition, though that might stretch credulity as it would be too vast a loss of face for the king and elevate the spiritual over the temporal too far. 
Up until then, I find Don Carlos a near-perfect opera - coherent, strong, dealing with huge and important themes, and simply wonderful music.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Belowpar said:


> I've often read that the closest Verdi actually came to realising his dream of dramatizing Lear was with Rigoletto. As if he had somehow combined the two characters of the loving father and the fool. I'm yet to be convinced.


Me too. It's too early in his composing career. I don't recall that he was obsessed with Lear as early as 1851. It's based on the Victor Hugo play which is powerful in its own right.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I like the idea of the story of Stiffelio. It takes a different approach to infidelity than we usually see in opera. 
The idea that the spouse can actually *Gasp* FORGIVE and the characters can move forward. From what I understand....I've only listened once so far and haven't read the libretto itself yet. I'll get around to it when I start my Chronological Verdi Project.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> Those definitely are sad, but there's a particular _type_ of sadness I associate with DON CARLO and SIMON BOCCANEGRA that's just...different, somehow. I honestly don't know how to describe it, but I know it when I feel it.


I can say that I find the thought of a parent seeing their child die as something extremely sad. In fact I find Rigoletto difficult to watch and also avoided to see the opera because of that fact.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> Fair question, which catches me on the hop. How does Schiller's play end, does anyone know?


Here's a synopsis of the Schiller play - which includes references to ghosts, but ends on a realistic note: https://www.sdopera.com/Content/Operapaedia/Operas/DonCarlo/LibrettoSource.htm

As for me, I think I don't have a problem with the supernatural ending because Verdi made sure to musically remind the audience of the mystical - that amazing choral motif in San Yuste, and the specifically described "Voice From Heaven." I actually like the juxtaposition of "historical realism" (although it was fictionalized obviously) and spiritual/supernatural. It's weird. It's strange. I wonder if the play would be more powerful, or less powerful, with a traditional death/farewell aria from the prince. I don't know.

Like I said, I'm not inclined to special-plead for the ending, but I am curious as to other ways it could have been ended and yet not have been wholly conventional...


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Here's a synopsis of the Schiller play - which includes references to ghosts, but ends on a realistic note: https://www.sdopera.com/Content/Operapaedia/Operas/DonCarlo/LibrettoSource.htm
> 
> As for me, I think I don't have a problem with the supernatural ending because Verdi made sure to musically remind the audience of the mystical - that amazing choral motif in San Yuste, and the specifically described "Voice From Heaven." I actually like the juxtaposition of "historical realism" (although it was fictionalized obviously) and spiritual/supernatural. It's weird. It's strange. I wonder if the play would be more powerful, or less powerful, with a traditional death/farewell aria from the prince. I don't know.
> 
> Like I said, I'm not inclined to special-plead for the ending, but I am curious as to other ways it could have been ended and yet not have been wholly conventional...


Well the play is fascinating, and ends in the way I thought most unlikely, handing Carlos to the Inquisition. Therefore I would have to say that is not wholly conventional - a new condition, by the way, that was not in the original question. Your other points are well-founded, plus the neatness of opening and closing with Charles V, Philip's dead father. I suppose I get caught up in the human drama, and allow the Voice from Heaven to slip past as a dramatic device. Almost you persuade me ... almost.


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Don Carlo is such s great opera that I probably wouldn't complain if it ended with Carlo fleeing on a purple hippopotamus :lol:


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

It IS an interesting play, isn't it? Posa not entirely loyal to Carlo!? (Verdi does retain a hint of that, although it seems to me that his Posa is just trying to salvage a bad situation) Elizabeth with a child?


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sonata said:


> I like the idea of the story of Stiffelio. It takes a different approach to infidelity than we usually see in opera.
> The idea that the spouse can actually *Gasp* FORGIVE and the characters can move forward. From what I understand....I've only listened once so far and haven't read the libretto itself yet. I'll get around to it when I start my Chronological Verdi Project.


You should really buy or borrow the 1993 Metropolitan Opera DVD of STIFFELIO with Placido Domingo. I just got done watching this again (it's one of my favorite opera DVDs), and I couldn't imagine a better version. The opera itself has, in my opinion, some short stretches of silly-sounding music, but on the whole I think it's a great work, with one of the most moving endings in Verdi.


----------



## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I can say that I find the thought of a parent seeing their child die as something extremely sad. In fact I find Rigoletto difficult to watch and also avoided to see the opera because of that fact.


It's interesting to hear what different people find almost too painful to watch. For me, Gilda's death is tragic but not unbearable; I sort of categorize it with the deaths of Shakespeare's Juliet or Ophelia -- there's a kind of poetic justice, or a sense that it couldn't have ended any other way. On the other hand, in DON CARLO I get the sense (like GrazieSignore said above) that the deaths (the heretics, Posa, Carlo) won't really change anything; there's a futility or a sense of being trapped that I find extremely painful. As for BOCCANEGRA, for some reason even the "happy" parts of the opera, like the father/daughter reunion, sound sad. It must be the key Verdi chose for the music.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sonata said:


> Don Carlo is such s great opera that I probably wouldn't complain if it ended with Carlo fleeing on a purple hippopotamus :lol:


Now that's an unconventional ending. Suggest it to Graziesignore.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> Now that's an unconventional ending. Suggest it to Graziesignore.


Maybe we DC groupies should gather a comprehensive list of how productions have staged the ending... it can't be any worse than "Na-BEE-cco"


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Bellinilover said:


> ... As for BOCCANEGRA, for some reason even the "happy" parts of the opera, like the father/daughter reunion, sound sad. It must be the key Verdi chose for the music.


Maybe Verdi was imagining how it would feel to meet the daughter he thought was dead.

I think he felt the loss of his daughter more than the loss of his son.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Several years ago Simon Keenlyside was about to drive from Germany to UK and his agent asked him if he'd considered doing Macbeth and thrust this CD through the open window of the car with the instruction to listen to it.










Simon eventually did sing the role and it is one of the few productions where there have been two DVDs released of the same production but performed with a different cast and in a different venue.

















There's a sound version of the ROH production on here.


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

sospiro said:


> Maybe Verdi was imagining how it would feel to meet the daughter he thought was dead.
> 
> I think he felt the loss of his daughter more than the loss of his son.


Yes, yes, yes.

From Wiki
"Verdi had a younger sister, Giuseppa, who died aged 17 in 1833" 
Also his first born was a girl and she was also the first of the two children to die, both died very young.

It would be hard not to speculate.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

BelliniLover, thanks for that Stiffelio recommendation! Never saw/heard it before. Great production and it has Vladimir Chernov too


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Some books I've got and can recommend, especially the George Martin.



































(of course!)


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

sospiro said:


> Some books I've got and can recommend, especially the George Martin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Julian Budden's 3 volumes of The Operas of Verdi - an absolute must for any true Verdi enthusiast.


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

The PHillips Matz biography is comprehensive to thepoint of exhaustion.

Julian Budden thought no one understood him like 
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAGoVChMIlM3ngPeUxwIVAT8UCh1jVQ


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I know only the Wikipedia version of Verdi's life, but he strikes me as someone who was always about 50 years ahead of his time. I'm not inclined to deify any composers as GENIUSES, but it is just really hard to think of anyone in any field who had such success as Verdi did in his. Not necessarily meaning instant acclaim and success (since so many of his operas were deemed failures at first), but just... look back and damn, that was a *career*. I kind of think of him as the Steven Spielberg of opera, although to be honest I think Verdi was better than Spielberg in the end.


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I just LOVE Verdi. I think that says all  A lot of my favorite operas are by Verdi. Callas of course sung some of them. A pretty good way to get into Verdi. And when you also get Gobbi you really get all the drama. When I watched the Met production of Simon Boccanegra with Domingo as Boccanegra I was stunned. Maybe Domingo ain't really a baritone, but he sure can act and I even liked his singing. I have never heard him live so I don't now how he sounds as a tenor or a baritone. It's funny how some people didn't like him as a tenor and now some don't like him as a baritone. People complained that he didn't have good high notes and now they complain about the low ones. Some people are just never happy. Personally I think that he should be allowed to do what he wants. I mean nobody forces you to go see him or listen to him if you don't want to  I really liked Boccanegra. Verdi really made wonderful father daughter relationships. It's funny how with Verdi you except so much from the opera. I mean people really seemed to love Boccanegra and I thought that it can't really be that good. But then it was even better than I thought. Verdi never stops to amaze me.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> I just LOVE Verdi. I think that says all  A lot of my favorite operas are by Verdi. Callas of course sung some of them. A pretty good way to get into Verdi. And when you also get Gobbi you really get all the drama. When I watched the Met production of Simon Boccanegra with Domingo as Boccanegra I was stunned. Maybe Domingo ain't really a baritone, but he sure can act and I even liked his singing. I have never heard him live so I don't now how he sounds as a tenor or a baritone. It's funny how some people didn't like him as a tenor and now some don't like him as a baritone. People complained that he didn't have good high notes and now they complain about the low ones. Some people are just never happy. Personally I think that he should be allowed to do what he wants. I mean nobody forces you to go see him or listen to him if you don't want to  I really liked Boccanegra. Verdi really made wonderful father daughter relationships. It's funny how with Verdi you except so much from the opera. I mean people really seemed to love Boccanegra and I thought that it can't really be that good. But then it was even better than I thought. Verdi never stops to amaze me.


simon was Ok but Domingo's Rigoletto was hopeless imo. I kept expecting him sing 'La donna Mobile'


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Diminuendo said:


> I just LOVE Verdi. I think that says all  A lot of my favorite operas are by Verdi. Callas of course sung some of them. A pretty good way to get into Verdi. And when you also get Gobbi you really get all the drama. When I watched the Met production of Simon Boccanegra with Domingo as Boccanegra I was stunned. Maybe Domingo ain't really a baritone, but he sure can act and I even liked his singing. I have never heard him live so I don't now how he sounds as a tenor or a baritone. It's funny how some people didn't like him as a tenor and now some don't like him as a baritone. People complained that he didn't have good high notes and now they complain about the low ones. Some people are just never happy. Personally I think that he should be allowed to do what he wants. I mean nobody forces you to go see him or listen to him if you don't want to  I really liked Boccanegra. Verdi really made wonderful father daughter relationships. It's funny how with Verdi you except so much from the opera. *I mean people really seemed to love Boccanegra and I thought that it can't really be that good. But then it was even better than I thought. Verdi never stops to amaze me.*


Lovely to hear about someone else's appreciation of Boccanegra!


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

sospiro said:


> Lovely to hear about someone else's appreciation of Boccanegra!


Just a wonderful opera. I think Verdi really needs great singers to get the most out of his operas. Like Callas in La Traviata or Callas and Gobbi in Rigoletto. I think I have been lucky to hear Verdi sung by the best. So now I know what Verdi can be and should be.

And here is Gobbi as Rigoletto. What a performance vocally and physically.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Diminuendo said:


> Just a wonderful opera. I think Verdi really needs great singers to get the most out of his operas. Like Callas in La Traviata or Callas and Gobbi in Rigoletto. I think I have been lucky to hear Verdi sung by the best. So now I know what Verdi can be and should be.
> 
> And here is Gobbi as Rigoletto. What a performance vocally and physically.


Yes the master!


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Diminuendo said:


> Just a wonderful opera. I think Verdi really needs great singers to get the most out of his operas. Like Callas in La Traviata or Callas and Gobbi in Rigoletto.


That's right. As a leading artistic director once told me, for Boccanegra all you need are the best singers in the world and a sensitive conductor.
But how wonderfully satisfying when you get them (or something close).
And any music poorly performed is painful. The English among us probably remember painful amateur Gilbert and Sullivan productions, for example.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Steatopygous said:


> And any music poorly performed is painful. The English among us probably remember painful amateur Gilbert and Sullivan productions, for example.


My parents used to drag me to these. Traumatised I was, traumatised ... 

Put me off opera for years.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> That's right. As a leading artistic director once told me, for Boccanegra all you need are the best singers in the world and a sensitive conductor.
> But how wonderfully satisfying when you get them (or something close).
> And any music poorly performed is painful. The English among us probably remember painful amateur Gilbert and Sullivan productions, for example.


You should go to to some amateur Verdi productions...

I love Gilbert and Sulivan, their sense of fun really comes across in the operettas. It's not as easy to perform as it may seem, but is one area of classical music that can work in amateur productions (in good amateur productions of course). I think a lot of opera people want opera to be transcendent when compared with pop music or musicals, yet the lighter, frothier pieces that are based on clear melodies with a strong rhythm share similarities with pop music and I think championing Bel Canto comedy and operetta could be a key to widening opera's appeal. It's interesting that the ballet world doesn't suffer from this sort of musical fascism, they are as happy with a good performance of Romeo and Juliet as they are with Don Quixote. Such open views about music mean that there is a greater variety in the different soundworlds for the scores being used for new ballets and the repertoire is being constantly refreshed with revivable new works. Meanwhile opera doesn't do as well as ballet at the box office and new works very rarely enter the repertoire.

N.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

I have endured some dreadful Verdi, let me assure you. And I definitely have a soft spot for good G and S. Opera Australia has done some really good productions in recent years, full of verve and wit and wonderful singing. 
I'm not sure that I agree with you about ballet and opera, ballet lovers being more open-minded, but perhaps I am not sufficiently acquainted with ballet. But the box office claim may be local because here opera does very well. Opera Australia, the only company in the world to operate 12 months a year, has sold 650,000 tickets for 2015, more than the Met or anyone else (because it does far more performances, not because it is better). As it gets only 20 per cent of its funding from subsidy, this is pretty important - and a big achievement.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Steatopygous said:


> That's right. As a leading artistic director once told me, for Boccanegra all you need are the best singers in the world and a sensitive conductor.
> But how wonderfully satisfying when you get them (or something close).
> And any music poorly performed is painful. The English among us probably remember painful amateur Gilbert and Sullivan productions, for example.


I have produced amateur performances. Yes they are somewhat painful but enormous fun. Sullivan wrote music that isn't too demanding so amateurs can have at least a fair shot at it. We were crowded out every night! Standing room on
Y!


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm not sure if the resentment over Domingo as a baritone has to do with him switching to baritone, but rather that he seems to be a baritone well past his prime...

(That said, I am no Domingo-basher. There are far greater sins in the opera world today than Domingo the baritone)

Random Verdi question: Do you prefer Un Ballo set in Sweden or in colonial America? Does it matter? (Personally, I prefer America, if only because it sort of makes Un Ballo an awesome opera for the Halloween season, what with the witch, spooky graveyard, masks and then you can have Ichabod Crane costumes too?)

Another random Un Ballo observation: "Eri tu" seems to be one of those very rare arias which is impossible for any singer to completely screw up. The emotions are so raw, there is always something there for any singer to work with. I don't think I've ever heard a wholly bad "Eri tu" from anyone (unless someone can't hit the notes at all).


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I'm not sure if the resentment over Domingo as a baritone has to do with him switching to baritone, but rather that he seems to be a baritone well past his prime...
> 
> (That said, I am no Domingo-basher. There are far greater sins in the opera world today than Domingo the baritone)
> 
> ...


Ever since I picked up an LP of Pasquale Amato's 1914 recording of "Eri tu" it's been one of my "test pieces" for a baritone. If a singer has a beautiful legato and dynamic control, and can invest his voice with heartbreaking emotion, here's his chance to prove it. I agree it's a hard aria to ruin, but it isn't easy to sing like this:






My impression of Domingo as a baritone is simple: he isn't one - any more than he was a dramatic tenor or a heldentenor. The fact that he could successfully play at being all these things is a tremendous tribute to his musicianship, acting ability, sound technique, and simple longevity. Most tenors who attempted to do everything he's done would have been wrecked before 50. So I say more power to him. I just won't be listening to his Rigoletto. 

For _Ballo_ I'll take America. We need more culture over here, and there just aren't enough operas with Italian-speaking cowboys and Puritans.


----------



## Queen of the Nerds (Dec 22, 2014)

My response on the random Verdi question:
I don't really care, but if I had to pick one, it would probably be Sweden. I think I prefer it just because that's where the historical events it's based on took place, but it's still great if set in Colonial Boston.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> My impression of Domingo as a baritone is simple: he isn't one - any more than he was a dramatic tenor or a heldentenor. The fact that he could successfully play at being all these things is a tremendous tribute to his musicianship, acting ability, sound technique, and simple longevity. Most tenors who attempted to do everything he's done would have been wrecked before 50. So I say more power to him. I just won't be listening to his Rigoletto.


My only real objection is that his presence in the cast bumps the price up at ROH. I know it's market forces/supply and demand but I refuse to pay the inflated price so I miss out. (in other words cuts off nose to spite face)



Woodduck said:


> For _Ballo_ I'll take America. We need more culture over here, and there just aren't enough operas with Italian-speaking cowboys and Puritans.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Circling back to my question about Don Carlo endings (actual or invented)... The staging of the ending as written can either be done well or badly. I like the Royal Opera production of 1985 (the re-do of the 1950s Visconti production), but it's a bit threadbare in the staging and the finale is Carlo literally being dragged offstage which... absent any special lighting or effects... doesn't really work.

Much better, in my opinion, is this production where heavy shadow seems to be used and I think (if I'm not mistaken, since the picture is not high quality) Carlo disappears and winds up ascending into heaven. Much more effective, more evocative, more in line with the mystical/spiritual overtones of the opera. I think this staging of the ending really works. (In any case, the ending really ought to circle back to the auto-da-fe, which this staging does.)


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

graziesignore said:


> Circling back to my question about Don Carlo endings (actual or invented)... The staging of the ending as written can either be done well or badly. I like the Royal Opera production of 1985 (the re-do of the 1950s Visconti production), but it's a bit threadbare in the staging and the finale is Carlo literally being dragged offstage which... absent any special lighting or effects... doesn't really work.
> 
> Much better, in my opinion, is this production where heavy shadow seems to be used and I think (if I'm not mistaken, since the picture is not high quality) Carlo disappears and winds up ascending into heaven. Much more effective, more evocative, more in line with the mystical/spiritual overtones of the opera. I think this staging of the ending really works. (In any case, the ending really ought to circle back to the auto-da-fe, which this staging does.)


I'm still not sure that I understand the ending. Thanks for the link, not seen this one.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I prefer Un Ballo set in Sweden I don´t a governor in Boston who was shot at a masked ball. On the other hand the story has nothing to do with the real events that led to the murder of Gustav III.

I must say I like Aida set in Thailand:


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Yeah, you don't really see what happens to Pavarotti... I'm assuming he's on that rising bier, but maybe it's just King Carlo on there. I think the bier is the souls of those done to death at the auto-da-fe, though.

Here's another, not textually correct but effective ending: Carlo walks off into heaven himself (a lighted doorway).






I guess my basic argument is that the ending *can* be effective and make sense despite its inherent weirdness, not because it works with the "political realism" of the opera, but explicitly against it - while making reference to all the religious overtones in the plot and music. And really, as has been pointed out, the plot is so depressing in its realism, it's might be valid(*) to say "Well, this is such an effed up situation, it would take an act of God to clean this up..."

* Your mileage may vary

But just having Carlo be dragged off... well, it doesn't even work for me in Don Giovanni. (Unless the Don goes kicking and screaming in a major way.)


----------



## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I regret the fact that it was censorship that led to Un Ballo being in Boston, but I do like the end result that it's in Boston. This is an opera that I've been listening to a lot lately. I really enjoy Pavarotti's Riccardo. He's quite glib in the libretto about the threat to his life, a rather cocky yet pleasant fellow and I think Pavarotti has pulled that off the best. I also look forward to hearing the version with Caballe and Jose Carerras because I've listened to a lot of that pair in the Gardelli early recordings....as well I want to hear Bergonzi and Nilsson as I'm a Bergonzi fan. What version do you enjoy best?


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

graziesignore said:


> Yeah, you don't really see what happens to Pavarotti... I'm assuming he's on that rising bier, but maybe it's just King Carlo on there. I think the bier is the souls of those done to death at the auto-da-fe, though.
> 
> Here's another, not textually correct but effective ending: Carlo walks off into heaven himself (a lighted doorway).
> 
> ...


The ending of Don Carlo is unsatisfactory. However the magnificent penultimate scene in Giovanni, when done as Mozart / do Ponte intended - is one of the greatest and most effective in opera. It is the intervention of idiotic stage directors - as in the latest from RHO - who think they know better than Mozart and restate it - which robs it of its effect. Played 'straight' it is terrific!


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I prefer Un Ballo set in Sweden I don´t a governor in Boston who was shot at a masked ball. On the other hand the story has nothing to do with the real events that led to the murder of Gustav III.


It can only be the masked ball that stretches credulity. Governors are certainly not immune from the general American hobby of shooting each other. Many here, for example, will remember Governor Wallace.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sonata said:


> I regret the fact that it was censorship that led to Un Ballo being in Boston, but I do like the end result that it's in Boston. This is an opera that I've been listening to a lot lately. I really enjoy Pavarotti's Riccardo. He's quite glib in the libretto about the threat to his life, a rather cocky yet pleasant fellow and I think Pavarotti has pulled that off the best. I also look forward to hearing the version with Caballe and Jose Carerras because I've listened to a lot of that pair in the Gardelli early recordings....as well I want to hear Bergonzi and Nilsson as I'm a Bergonzi fan. What version do you enjoy best?


I have 8 Ballos
Solti with Bergonzi and Nilsson
Solti with Pavarotti and Price
Gavazzeni with Poggi and Stella
Bartoletti with Pavarotti and Tebaldi
Votto with di Stefano and Callas
Karajan with Domingo and Barstow
Muti with Domingo and Arroyo (the version I first got to know) 
Abbado with Domingo and Ricciarelli
This will be very unsatisfying, I know, but there is much to like in all of those accounts. It is certainly one of my favourite Verdi operas, and might even sneak into the top 5 after Don Carlos, La Traviata, Otello - at least, while I am listening to it.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Steatopygous said:


> It can only be the masked ball that stretches credulity. Governors are certainly not immune from the general American hobby of shooting each other. Many here, for example, will remember Governor Wallace.


Wallace never shot anybody so far as I know, but was shot five times in 1972. He recanted his racial views and was re-elected as governor, serving a total of five terms. He spent his last quarter-century after 1972 in constant pain.


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> It can only be the masked ball that stretches credulity. Governors are certainly not immune from the general American hobby of shooting each other. Many here, for example, will remember Governor Wallace.


What I know he was not shot at a masked ball.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Also hard to believe: an American witch named Ulrica (Ulrike). Did Verdi just forget to change her name too, or was that an eff-you to the censors?

My current fave Ballo is a pirate recording í ½í¸


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> I have 8 Ballos
> Solti with Bergonzi and Nilsson
> Solti with Pavarotti and Price
> Gavazzeni with Poggi and Stella
> ...


No Price and Bergonzi?


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Pugg said:


> No Price and Bergonzi?


no, nor domingo and price


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

KenOC said:


> Wallace never shot anybody so far as I know, but was shot five times in 1972. He recanted his racial views and was re-elected as governor, serving a total of five terms. He spent his last quarter-century after 1972 in constant pain.


No, but nor does Riccardo shoot anyone in Ballo. He is the victim.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Sloe said:


> What I know he was not shot at a masked ball.


Precisely. So we agree. It's the masked ball that's the problem. But if Americans did hold masked balls, no doubt some people would shoot others at them, as part of the national hobby.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Er... before this gets too heated... can we all agree that Renato _stabs_ Riccardo?


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Steatopygous said:


> I have 8 Ballos
> Solti with Bergonzi and Nilsson
> Solti with Pavarotti and Price
> Gavazzeni with Poggi and Stella
> ...


Not this one?


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

OOH! I never saw that one before. Want!

(I have never heard/seen Wixell do Renato. In any case I always find him very entertaining.)


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Not this one?


Whatever version we prefer it is a shame we were denied Bjorling's Riccardo. There is much dispute about his row with Solti as to who was to blame but the result is the public were denied him singing in the Decca recording that was made. Pity!


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

sospiro said:


> Not this one?


No. Because of your emoticon, I'll go further and say, alas, no. How do you rank against those that I have that you may know?


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Er... before this gets too heated... can we all agree that Renato _stabs_ Riccardo?


How very literal of you!  Have you not been following the regietheater thread? The last ballo I saw was staged by the Barcelona group La Fura dels Baus, and neither knife nor gun was employed. Instead the conspirators produced gasmasks and killed everyone on stage but themselves.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Steatopygous said:


> How very literal of you!  Have you not been following the regietheater thread? The last ballo I saw was staged by the Barcelona group La Fura dels Baus, and neither knife nor gun was employed. Instead the conspirators produced gasmasks and killed everyone on stage but themselves.


Now if they had just dragged the director on stage and gassed him instead - _that_ would have been a story!


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Now if they had just dragged the director on stage and gassed him instead - _that_ would have been a story!


 But that would depart even further from the original! 

N.


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Now if they had just dragged the director on stage and gassed him instead - _that_ would have been a story!


And an absolute boon for the audience.


----------



## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Steatopygous said:


> No. Because of your emoticon, I'll go further and say, alas, no. How do you rank against those that I have that you may know?


The only other one I have is the Solti with Bergonzi and Nilsson but you'll have to make allowances for me where Carreras is concerned. He's my favourite eye candy but dunno if his voice is any good :lol:


----------



## Steatopygous (Jul 5, 2015)

sospiro said:


> The only other one I have is the Solti with Bergonzi and Nilsson but you'll have to make allowances for me where Carreras is concerned. He's my favourite eye candy but dunno if his voice is any good :lol:


I think the consensus is that it's pretty damn good.


----------



## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Steatopygous said:


> I think the consensus is that it's pretty damn good.


Oh? I've heard it's more complex than that...

N.


----------



## Elen (Feb 24, 2015)

*Verdi's Il Trovatore for the conducting masterclass.*

Dear friends,
I'm going to arrange the Opera conducting masterclass in January 2016, so, I need your advice. 
It will be about 10-day masterclass with a the double program. *Opera-Gala* - a mix of Baroque and Classical works and one more -* Il Trovatore* by Verdi. 
1) Does Il Trovatore interesting enough for conductors? Isn't it too difficult for them? 
2) This opera is difficult enough for singers, yes, I know... and it is not a repertoire for a student-singers of Opera Faculties at the Universities, of course, perhaps I am wrong and I have not crossed to right University yet, which I would can invite to Czech Republic for this project... but what do you think, is Il Trovatore appropriate in general for the masterclass? 
3) Could you recommend me, please, the Opera Studio or the University with quality Opera, Voice Faculty for the production of Il Trovatore? 
Greetings,
Elen


----------



## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

A charming free surprise mini-presentation of a part from Giuseppe Verdi's _La Traviata_ at Mercado Central shopping mall in Belo Horizonte, MG (Brazil) May 08, 2010.

Six Palácio das Artes - BH's most renowned opera theater which is run by Fundação Clovis Salgado - house singers, sopranos Eliseth Gomes, Fabíola Protzner and Lilian Assumpção, and tenors Marcos Paulo, Eduardo Cunha Melo and Sandro de Deus, entered the mall disguised as common shoppers, positioned themselves and with the music starting they started singing their parts. So beautiful! I would love to have been there that day!

With that surprise presentation Palácio das Artes started their 2010 opera season:





with which .


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Did anyone listen in on the Met's season opener of Otello last night? I only caught the last act, which had brilliant singing by Sonia Yoncheva (Desdemona). How was the rest of the performance?


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

graziesignore said:


> Did anyone listen in on the Met's season opener of Otello last night? I only caught the last act, which had brilliant singing by Sonia Yoncheva (Desdemona). How was the rest of the performance?


I didn't go last night, but I have tickets in October. I'll tell you all about it once I go see it.


----------



## Fat Bob (Sep 25, 2015)

My introduction to Don Carlo(s) was 20 odd years ago when Scottish Opera was touring a scaled down production as part of their "Opera Go Round" scheme which toured to smaller venues around the country. If you can imagine this being performed by half a dozen singers with piano accompaniment you'll realise the auto-da-fe scene lost it's grandeur but since so much of this opera involves the personal interactions of these grand figures it was still a hugely effective performance. In fact I think the lack of large forces and no special effects meant that we, the audience, could really appreciate the music. I fell in love with this opera that night and that love has only increased over the years.


----------



## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Cool story. I definitely can see how Don Carlo could work as a small ensemble.


----------



## Braddan (Aug 23, 2015)

Fat Bob said:


> My introduction to Don Carlo(s) was 20 odd years ago when Scottish Opera was touring a scaled down production as part of their "Opera Go Round" scheme which toured to smaller venues around the country. If you can imagine this being performed by half a dozen singers with piano accompaniment you'll realise the auto-da-fe scene lost it's grandeur but since so much of this opera involves the personal interactions of these grand figures it was still a hugely effective performance. In fact I think the lack of large forces and no special effects meant that we, the audience, could really appreciate the music. I fell in love with this opera that night and that love has only increased over the years.


I saw that too when I didn't really know the opera well. It showed that it could be an intimate piece too. Last year they did a similar thing with Macbeth using a small orchestra.


----------



## ma7730 (Jun 8, 2015)

I went to see Otello at the Met on Friday, and it was absolutely extraordinary. Not only was the cast great, but the production was better than I could have imagined. Aleksander Antonenko was an amazing Otello, along with Sonya Yoncheva as a wonderful Desdemona, and Zeljko Lucic as Iago. Bartlett sheer's production was simultaneously modern and traditionalist, using projections and building the set out of shifting glass rooms, but also maintaining the epic grandeur expected from Verdi. The orchestra played with such power and conviction, lead by Yannick Nézet-Séguin. Overall, it was certainly one of my favorite opera productions I have seen.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just be re-released I think. This looks interesting. Anyone heard it?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YOMQO0U/ref=pe_313591_87959321_em_sim_13_ti


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Just be re-released I think. This looks interesting. Anyone heard it?
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00YOMQO0U/ref=pe_313591_87959321_em_sim_13_ti


You can hear samples on this site:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/RCA/88875051922


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> You can hear samples on this site:
> http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/RCA/88875051922


Seems it has been out on Testament. Two contrasting reviews:

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-12016/

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=103597


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Seems it has been out on Testament. Two contrasting reviews:
> 
> http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-12016/
> 
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=103597


I am with the Alan Blyth review , I have it in my Monteux box.
I can't however comment on this new remastering, as my computer has no special link to my audio system.
The one I have sound good for a recording original from 1956.


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Just for fun


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

As it's the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare's death today, BBC Radio 3 Record Review's Building a Library section discussed recordings of Verdi's *Falstaff*. The great thing about this programme, is that it plays excerpts from different recordings, helping the listener to make up their own mind, and disagree if they feel so inclined. Roger Parker, having played excerpts from the most recent Davis recording, the Giulini, the Gardiner, the Bernstein, the Abbado finally narrowed his choice to three recordings; Toscanini, Solti and Karajan's Philharmonia recording with Gobbi, all of which he excerpted fairly extensively. How anyone could disagree with his final choice of Karajan is quite beyond me. Everyone in it, orchestra, chorus, soloists and conductor are at their very best, and, as an ensemble, none of them has been bettered in other sets, though of course there are some individually excellent performances elsewhere. Parker thought all three conductors were at their best, but, even so, there was that slight suspicion that the Solti was slightly overdriven, a suspicion confirmed when he played the Solti and Karajan in the same excerpts side by side.

For me the Karajan is a source of endless pleasure, and I regret enormously that my CDs are in storage at the moment and I can't pull it off the shelf and play it now immediately. Here's its original sleeve.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> As it's Shakespeare's birthday today, BBC Radio 3 Record Review's Building a Library section discussed recordings of Verdi's *Falstaff*. The great thing about this programme, is that it plays excerpts from different recordings, helping the listener to make up their own mind, and disagree if they feel so inclined. Roger Parker, having played excerpts from the most recent Davis recording, the Giulini, the Gardiner, the Bernstein, the Abbado finally narrowed his choice to three recordings; Toscanini, Solti and Karajan's Philharmonia recording with Gobbi, all of which he excerpted fairly extensively. How anyone could disagree with his final choice of Karajan is quite beyond me. Everyone in it, orchestra, chorus, soloists and conductor are at their very best, and, as an ensemble, none of them has been bettered in other sets, though of course there are some individually excellent performances elsewhere. Parker thought all three conductors were at their best, but, even so, there was that slight suspicion that the Solti was slightly overdriven, a suspicion confirmed when he played the Solti and Karajan in the same excerpts side by side.
> 
> For me the Karajan is a source of endless pleasure, and I regret enormously that my CDs are in storage at the moment and I can't pull it off the shelf and play it now immediately. Here's its original sleeve.


Agreed! I've also got the idiosyncratic Bernstein with D F-D as Falstaff. I know it's been subject to criticism but I find it so full of life and joy. But Karajan is the best all round certainly.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Agreed! I've also got the idiosyncratic Bernstein with D F-D as Falstaff. I know it's been subject to criticism but I find it so full of life and joy. But Karajan is the best all round certainly.


Parker played a bit of D F-D on the Bernstein, and though finding him stylistically all wrong, confessed to rather liking him none the less.


----------



## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> For me the Karajan is a source of endless pleasure, and I regret enormously that my CDs are in storage at the moment and I can't pull it off the shelf and play it now immediately. Here's its original sleeve.


When in Malta I'm thousands of miles away from my 'wall of sounds' so I have to make do with this 35 disk set, which includes Karajan's Falstaff and Otello.


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Don Fatale said:


> When in Malta I'm thousands of miles away from my 'wall of sounds' so I have to make do with this 35 disk set, which includes Karajan's Falstaff and Otello.
> 
> 
> View attachment 83809


Well I've kept three box sets for the moment; the Callas Remastered box, the Schwarzkopf Recital box and Janet Baker's Great EMI Recordings box, but no *Falstaff* at the moment.

At least the Callas box includes a fair amount of Verdi.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

GregMitchell said:


> Parker played a bit of D F-D on the Bernstein, and though finding him stylistically all wrong, confessed to rather liking him none the less.


I must say i can't see why people have a beef against D F-D. I mean, Evans is not Italian either!


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I must say i can't see why people have a beef against D F-D. I mean, Evans is not Italian either!


I don't have a beef about him, and like a lot of his recordings, but he just doesn't sound right in Verdi to me, and never has. Mind you I don't much like Evans in the role either. Or maybe it's because I find Gobbi so perfect. His range of tone colour is enormous, his charactersation brilliantly thought out to the finest detail, yet completely natural sounding. D F-D doesn't quite achieve that, however intelligent his portrayals.

One might say the same about Schwarzkopf I suppose, but the only Verdi she recorded are the Requiem and Alice Ford, which she sings with a wonderful sense of fun. It's not quite authentic either, I suppose, but I'll accept it for the sparkle, wit and sheer high spirits she brings to the role. She also sang Violetta in her younger days, but gave up the role after hearing Callas in it ("What is the sense in doing a part that another contemporary artist can do to perfection?"). She did record the Act II duet with Germont (Panerai as Germont) and that doesn't really work for me either, though my appreciation of Schwarzkopf's art is second to none.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Just listened to the end of the Karajan Falstaff again. It certainly is one of the greatest operatic recordings ever made, with an incomperable cast, orchestra and conductor, all at the height of their powers. Not to forget producer Walter Legge, reportedly a most disagreeable man, but a recording genius. All doing what they did best. For Karajan Falstaff represented the pinacle of operatic comedy and he conducts it brilliantly on this recording. Every detail of Verdi's miraculous score is brought out. Of all operatic recordings, this is a 'must have'!


----------



## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> When in Malta I'm thousands of miles away from my 'wall of sounds' so I have to make do with this 35 disk set, which includes Karajan's Falstaff and Otello.
> 
> 
> View attachment 83809


I would have gone for the DECCA box 
Bit heavier but complete:tiphat:


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Pugg said:


> I would have gone for the DECCA box
> Bit heavier but complete:tiphat:


But without Karajan's superb *Falstaff*


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

...and I though I was a luddite.

You can still get reconditioned iPod Classics, although the price seems to have gone up 40% in the past year.
Every time I'm packing for a trip it delights me that I can take all my music with me. Of course if you have more than 40 000 tracks you might need to bring a few CD's with you.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/iPod-160-...574129?hash=item4197dad0b1:g:hkUAAOSw6BtVUhpp


----------



## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> ...and I though I was a luddite.
> 
> You can still get reconditioned iPod Classics, although the price seems to have gone up 40% in the past year.
> Every time I'm packing for a trip it delights me that I can take all my music with me. Of course if you have more than 40 000 tracks you might need to bring a few CD's with you.
> ...


I like my CDs. I like owning the physical object. I like seeing them on the shelves. I like the documentation you used to get with opera sets, and, where possible, will seek out the original CD issue, which will include libretto and notes. I also prefer the sound I get from a CD.

Incidentally, it seems many young people are now going back to vinyl, though I can't see myself doing the same. I simply don't have the room.

But, yes, iPods are great for music on the move, if only I could spend the time transferring my collection onto one. I therefore tend to use spotify, which has an even greater library of music than I have and is also on my phone, meaning I have it everywhere I go.


----------



## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> I like my CDs. I like owning the physical object. I like seeing them on the shelves. I like the documentation you used to get with opera sets, and, where possible, will seek out the original CD issue, which will include libretto and notes. I also prefer the sound I get from a CD.
> 
> Incidentally, it seems many young people are now going back to vinyl, though I can't see myself doing the same. I simply don't have the room.
> 
> But, yes, iPods are great for music on the move, if only I could spend the time transferring my collection onto one. I therefore tend to use spotify, which has an even greater library of music than I have and is also on my phone, meaning I have it everywhere I go.


I do agree with you re CD's,. One of the joys of home. Tonight we goto see the new film about Miles Davis which I understand is about the time he recorded Kind of Blue. What a small but intense pleasure this week to get my CD out and to re-read the original liner notes. It would have been a little more special to have dug out the Vinyl copy I once owned, but that's a thing of the past for me.

I told you I was a luddite....Spotify, one day.

Apologies for the thread divert. I can't read enough about Verdi.


----------



## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

I love both cd and vinyl. Earlier I had the mindset that I have to physically own as much as possible. But then I realized that I don't have enough money to buy everything I wanted. Then I decided to buy only what I wanted most or couldn't listen to from Spotify or Tidal. I had some old vinyl's that my parents had bought so I bought a turntable so that I could play them. And sometimes I buy something. I bought for instance the original first release of the 1953 Callas Tosca. I loved the recording and it was cheap. The artwork is great and it's nice to actually see the vinyl when playing. And it also had libretto with it which was really nice. Vinyl of course will last longer than cd's if you don't play it too much. One cd that I had was guaranteed to last one hundred years. Vinyl can last much longer. Provided you don't listen to it all the time. It's nice to own things physically, but I don't necessarily have to. Owning is a nice luxury, but not always necessary.


----------

