# Why does Levine hate Bruckner?



## brahseph (Apr 2, 2016)

Seems like he could bring out a lot in these symphonies...any links to sources for why he avoids them?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Another Bruckner thread , really?


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## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I'm surprised he hasn't conducted Bruckner. I wouldn't go as far to say he hates Bruckner, it could just be something he's not been commissioned to do, or it just never crosses his mind. He hasn't done a Vaughan Williams set that I know of, or a Shostakovich. He's probably wanting to conduct the Met Opera until he either passes or can't work anymore.


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## Cosmos (Jun 28, 2013)

Pugg said:


> Another Bruckner thread , really?


Why, what's wrong with Bruckner?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Cosmos said:


> Why, what's wrong with Bruckner?


Nothing, but have you seen that we have at least 3 other threads?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2016)

Who's Levine? [fifteen characters]


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## AndorFoldes (Aug 25, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Who's Levine? [fifteen characters]


James Levine. American conductor. Most known for his work at the Metropolitan Opera in New York.

In 1989 he was rumored to be a frontrunner to replace Karajan as principal conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic, but it was not to be.

He has had health problems in recent years, and is now conducting from a wheelchair.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> I'm surprised he hasn't conducted Bruckner. I wouldn't go as far to say he hates Bruckner, it could just be something he's not been commissioned to do, or it just never crosses his mind. He hasn't done a Vaughan Williams set that I know of, or a Shostakovich. He's probably wanting to conduct the Met Opera until he either passes or can't work anymore.


He has stated that the two composers he will never conduct are Bruckner and Shostakovich. His replacement as music director of the Boston Symphony, Andris Nelsons, made a point of saying that he would focus on both of them (I just wish it wasn't at the expense of some of the music that Levine did).


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> He has stated that the two composers he will never conduct are Bruckner and Shostakovich. His replacement as music director of the Boston Symphony, Andris Nelsons, made a point of saying that he would focus on both of them (I just wish it wasn't at the expense of some of the music that Levine did).


Out of curiosity, what's getting left out?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Blancrocher said:


> Out of curiosity, what's getting left out?


No Carter or Schoenberg, much less Mahler and Mozart than under Levine.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Related: Slatkin and Bruckner.*

I attended a panel discussion that included Leonard Slatkin. Even though he loved Bruckner, he felt that he did not understand Bruckner well enough to conduct him. Funny since Slatkin frequently conducts Mahler.

"A man's has got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

OP: Let me guess? Because Levine is musically astute?

Still having trouble figuring out why Boulez recorded Bruckner 8, but hated Shostakovich, a much greater composer than Bruckner, in my opinion. Strange.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

hpowders said:


> OP: Let me guess? Because Levine is musically astute?
> 
> Still having trouble figuring out why Boulez recorded Bruckner 8, but hated Shostakovich, a much greater composer than Bruckner, in my opinion. Strange.


Boulez stated that his appreciation for Bruckner's music (after a period of some resistance, broken down by his friend Barenboim) was in large part due to its harmonic richness. Works like the Eighth and Ninth symphonies (he also conducted the Fifth once, but I haven't encountered a bootleg) have a variety of harmonic relationships only matched at the time by Wagner and perhaps sometimes Brahms (a composer Boulez completely ignored, and a greater one than Bruckner).

Shostakovich's music, whatever its other merits, doesn't have that same harmonic richness, so it's not too surprising that it didn't fit well with Boulez's sensibilities.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Boulez stated that his appreciation for Bruckner's music (after a period of some resistance, broken down by his friend Barenboim) was in large part due to its harmonic richness. Works like the Eighth and Ninth symphonies (he also conducted the Fifth once, but I haven't encountered a bootleg) have a variety of harmonic relationships only matched at the time by Wagner and perhaps sometimes Brahms (a composer Boulez completely ignored, and a greater one than Bruckner).
> 
> Shostakovich's music, whatever its other merits, doesn't have that same harmonic richness, so it's not too surprising that it didn't fit well with Boulez's sensibilities.


Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony is the most Mahler-like of any symphony not composed by Mahler. Perhaps Boulez wasn't familiar with it. I can't believe he wouldn't have been delighted by it.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

hpowders said:


> Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony is the most Mahler-like of any symphony not composed by Mahler. Perhaps Boulez wasn't familiar with it. I can't believe he wouldn't have been delighted by it.


I don't think we can assume that he wasn't familiar with it. By all accounts he was familiar with a good deal of music that he never conducted, including the works of Tchaikovsky and Sibelius.

It's the most Mahler-like Shostakovich symphony, for sure, but I'd say that Alban Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra is the most Mahler-like symphonic work not composed by Mahler.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> I don't think we can assume that he wasn't familiar with it. By all accounts he was familiar with a good deal of music that he never conducted, including the works of Tchaikovsky and Sibelius.
> 
> It's the most Mahler-like Shostakovich symphony, for sure, but I'd say that Alban Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra is the most Mahler-like symphonic work not composed by Mahler.


For someone who recorded the Mahler symphonies, the Shostakovich 4 seemed to be the next logical step.
I would have bought it too. A shame.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The fact that Levine hates Bruckner but adores Wagner, confirms my own feelings.

I don't know how many times I've seen Wagner's Ring and Die Meistersinger at the Met. Never get tired of this extraordinary music.

Bruckner symphonies in concert. Never, as far as I can remember.The guy was good. No doubt about it, but Wagner's music is simply on another level.

Even when Boulez was music director of the NY Philharmonic, as far as I can remember, he never did Bruckner or Shostakovich. 
Mahler 3, yes.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> He has stated that the two composers he will never conduct are Bruckner and Shostakovich. His replacement as music director of the Boston Symphony, Andris Nelsons, made a point of saying that he would focus on both of them (I just wish it wasn't at the expense of some of the music that Levine did).


Andris Nelsons, from what I read, is beginning a complete Shostakovich Symphony cycle with the BSO. The Tenth was already released. Haven't heard it, but reviews are "mixed".


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> He has stated that the two composers he will *never* conduct are Bruckner and Shostakovich.


"Never say never"  ...


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

brahseph said:


> Seems like he could bring out a lot in these symphonies...any links to sources for why he avoids them?


Have you anything to contribute to this yourself?


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## brahseph (Apr 2, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Have you anything to contribute to this yourself?


I was just wondering why a conductor would reject a composer (or composers, if you include Shostakovich) out of principle. Is there some standard that they are not rising to? In my experience, Levine summons amazing textures from the works that he conducts, and it seems like both Bruckner & Shostakovich offer incredibly fertile palettes to work with. I can't imagine that they are somehow "beneath him" as he has happily served up popular warhorses like "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" and "Carmina Burana" - so what exactly is holding him back?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Some conductors are smart enough to realize that if they don't have an emotional sympathy with some music, then it's best let others do it who do have a connection with that music. We are all best served when they focus on what they do best.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Becca said:


> Some conductors are smart enough to realize that if they don't have an emotional sympathy with some music, then it's best let others do it who do have a connection with that music. We are all best served when they focus on what they do best.


In an ideal world, yes. However, conductors recording for big labels get pressured to record things they don't want to do, which "sell". They wish to get paid, they do it. Another Beethoven symphony set when he/she would rather do Shostakovich.....oh well.

Superstar conductors like Levine or Boulez probably had a bit more flexibility in choosing repertoire to record.

Thus no obligatory Beethoven complete symphonies from the likes of them.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

hpowders said:


> In an ideal world, yes. However, *conductors recording for big labels get pressured *to record things they don't want to do, which "sell". They wish to get paid, they do it. Another Beethoven symphony set when he/she would rather do Shostakovich.....oh well.
> 
> Superstar conductors like Levine or Boulez probably had a bit more flexibility in choosing repertoire to record.
> 
> Thus no obligatory Beethoven complete symphonies from the likes of them.


Poor younger Haitink. He's spoken about it.



Pugg said:


> Nothing, but have you seen that we have at least 3 other threads?


OK, so is 3 the number when we reach some sort of max. limit/saturation point for a particular topic? Is there any logical connection between the number of threads and it being unnecessary? You could make a hundred threads about Bruckner, Mr. Pugg, and they'd all be different and mentally challenging.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

hpowders said:


> In an ideal world, yes. However, conductors recording for big labels get pressured to record things they don't want to do, which "sell". They wish to get paid, they do it. Another Beethoven symphony set when he/she would rather do Shostakovich.....oh well.
> 
> Superstar conductors like Levine or Boulez probably had a bit more flexibility in choosing repertoire to record.
> 
> Thus no obligatory Beethoven complete symphonies from the likes of them.


Actually I suspect that, by this point in time, it is the other way around, i.e. the superstar conductors have the clout to get the record companies to do yet another Beethoven cycle whereas the bean counters know that it is a losing proposition, the only gain being the good will of the superstar and the chance to get them to do something with a greater sales potential


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Becca said:


> Actually I suspect that, by this point in time, it is the other way around, i.e. the superstar conductors have the clout to get the record companies to do yet another Beethoven cycle whereas the bean counters know that it is a losing proposition, the only gain being the good will of the superstar and the chance to get them to do something with a greater sales potential


Well, maybe. I'm still quite annoyed that Leonard Bernstein wasted his time (my opinion) late in life on re-recording Beethoven and Mahler symphonies. I would have liked some Shostakovich and American works which he was really good at conducting-Schuman, Harris, Mennin, Creston and Piston.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

hpowders said:


> Well, maybe. I'm still quite annoyed that Leonard Bernstein wasted his time (my opinion) late in life on re-recording Beethoven and Mahler symphonies. I would have liked some Shostakovich and American works which he was really good at conducting-Schuman, Harris, Mennin, Creston and Piston.


Well, all is good, Mr. H, as the later Beethoven is far superior in my ever-so-why-does-it-need-to-be-stated?-humble-opinion.
And his later Mahler is eccentric at times from what I've read so we got a fresh spin on the score too. Always look on the bright side of life!


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## Alfacharger (Dec 6, 2013)

Apparently Levin does not hate Bruckner or Schostakovich. A quote from an article from Boston.com.

"Boston Symphony Orchestra music director James Levine, interviewed by Charlie Rose on PBS earlier this week, admitted there are some composers whose music he feels no need to conduct. Pressed for details, he said he loves to listen to Bruckner and Shostakovich but can't find a meaningful way to conduct their music himself."

http://archive.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2005/04/16/from_intensity_to_lightness_with_bso/

I found this from a blog post by Alex Ross.

http://www.therestisnoise.com/2005/05/shostaphobia.html


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## brahseph (Apr 2, 2016)

Alfacharger said:


> Apparently Levin does not hate Bruckner or Schostakovich. A quote from an article from Boston.com.
> 
> "Boston Symphony Orchestra music director James Levine, interviewed by Charlie Rose on PBS earlier this week, admitted there are some composers whose music he feels no need to conduct. Pressed for details, he said he loves to listen to Bruckner and Shostakovich but can't find a meaningful way to conduct their music himself."
> 
> ...


Thanks, these are exactly the kinds of references I was looking for. The quotes just deepen the mystery, though - how could there be such a gap between an evident ability to absorb the beauty of the works by these composers, and the will to further their reach through performance? There has to be something that is being left unspoken - is it really just conceit?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

brahseph said:


> Thanks, these are exactly the kinds of references I was looking for. The quotes just deepen the mystery, though - how could there be such a gap between an evident ability to absorb the beauty of the works by these composers, and the will to further their reach through performance? There has to be something that is being left unspoken - is it really just conceit?


Bit of researches never harmed anyone


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## Jeffrey Smith (Jan 2, 2016)

brahseph said:


> Thanks, these are exactly the kinds of references I was looking for. The quotes just deepen the mystery, though - how could there be such a gap between an evident ability to absorb the beauty of the works by these composers, and the will to further their reach through performance? There has to be something that is being left unspoken - is it really just conceit?


Perhaps he simply feels he has nothing to "say" in those composers which has not been "said" before, or better, by other conductors.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Jeffrey Smith said:


> Perhaps he simply feels he has nothing to "say" in those composers which has not been "said" before, or better, by other conductors.


I would hope the music director, and/or others who determine the programming, ask occasionally what their audience would like to hear. Levine's supposed concerns over whether he has something new to "say" don't seem entirely relevant.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

KenOC said:


> I would hope the music director, and/or others who determine the programming, ask occasionally what their audience would like to hear. Levine's supposed concerns over whether he has something new to "say" don't seem entirely relevant.


Sure it does. It isn't as if Levine was the only conductor each season, there will be guest conductors who have more to 'say' about those composers. There are too many conductors out there who think that just because they are able to perform something, that they ought to perform it. I am sure that we have all encountered cases where they ought to have left well enough alone.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Becca said:


> Sure it does. It isn't as if Levine was the only conductor each season, there will be guest conductors who have more to 'say' about those composers. There are too many conductors out there who think that just because they are able to perform something, that they ought to perform it. I am sure that we have all encountered cases where they ought to have left well enough alone.


I disagree. After all, in many orchestras the conductor is paid less than the concertmaster, and with good reason. For all the mystique some afford them, we need to remember Kovacevich's dictum that conducting is the last bastion of quackery outside the medical profession. Ultimately, a conductor is only the guy (or gal) who stands up there beating time, trying to avoid Lully's tragic mistake of striking his own foot. Don't you agree? :devil:

Also to mention Nigel Kennedy: "I think conductors are completely over-rated anyway, because if you love music, why not play it? Why wave around and get off on some ego *****? I don't think the audience give a ***** about the conductor. Not unless they've been pumped full of propaganda from classical music writing or something. I mean, no one normal understands what the conductor does. No one knows what they do! They just wave their arms out of time."


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I


KenOC said:


> I disagree. After all, in many orchestras the conductor is paid less than the concertmaster, and with good reason. For all the mystique some afford them, we need to remember Kovachevich's dictum that conducting is the last bastion of quackery outside the medical profession. Ultimately, a conductor is only the guy (or gal) who stands up there beating time, trying to avoid Lully's tragic mistake of striking his own foot. Don't you agree? :devil:
> 
> Also to mention Nigel Kennedy: "I think conductors are completely over-rated anyway, because if you love music, why not play it? Why wave around and get off on some ego *****? I don't think the audience give a ***** about the conductor. Not unless they've been pumped full of propaganda from classical music writing or something. I mean, no one normal understands what the conductor does. No one knows what they do! They just wave their arms out of time."


Another illustration that Kennedy should stick to playing the violin. At least it keeps his mouth closed!


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Boulez hated Tchaikovsky's music. When he assumed the music directorship of the New York Philharmonic in 1971, his contract specifically stated that he would not be required to conduct any of this composer's music !
However, he did not object to NY Phil. guest conductors programming music by Tchaikovsky 
and said he was not a tyrant in this respect .


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## Bruckner Anton (Mar 10, 2016)

I can't believe he hates Bruckner, also I don't think his will be good at conducting his symphonies if he really works on them.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Also, Bruckner doesn't exactly fill Symphony Hall.


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## kanishknishar (Aug 10, 2015)

MarkW said:


> Also, Bruckner doesn't exactly fill Symphony Hall.


Not the '60s anymore. He's become "hip" now like Mahler became "hip" after Lenny's NYPhil recordings and popularization through innumerable concerts and educational programs [and a host of other conductors like Klemperer and Walter].


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