# Single Round:“L’altra notte in fondo al mare. Raisa, Olivero, Carteri



## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

See notes below


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

We began this contest in late November and it is one of my favorite arias. Someone in the group suggested a good contestant but I didn't have anyone to pair with her at the time. Now I do. I think you will enjoy this beautiful singing. If more than one of you want me to put our winner here up against the former supreme winner I will be happy to do it. When you hear these I think you will see why I wanted to revisit this aria.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I hate to be first because everyone will say "well of course she chose her favorite soprano Magda Olivero!" but truth be told, and as really surprisingly superb as Rosanna Carteri's offering was, and it was just that -- from passion, to excellent trill, to beautiful voice -- I still absolutely think that Olivero's shines above them all. 
She owns this aria and has it down pat. Her phraseology, her excellent trills, her drama, her inner depth, are overwhelmingly fantastic, and not because she is my favorite. 
I have no doubt some will be turned off by her vibrato sound but to me it just heightens the intensity of emotion.
As for Raisa -- I will take a polite pass.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I think Carteri is out of her depth, though she has a beautiful voice. She does some overwrought “dramatic” accents, but they don’t work for me.

Raisa’s traversal is curiously uninvolved, though she does everything very well.

Of the three, the soprano I’d most want to hear in this music is Olivero, so she gets my vote.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Carteri works hard at emoting but doesn't succeed in sounding authentic. Olivero does surprisingly little with the music, and all I can think about is the rapid-fire vibrato. On both grounds I'm guessing that this is a fairly early recording. Raisa could probably give this performance in her sleep.

I don't like any of them enough to cast a vote.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

I've heard the aria a number of times but certainly not in the way of knowing individual renditions. I came away from this thinking Olivero's version would probably be about as good as it gets. Her tone seemed very Marguerite (I don't know Boito's take but the character in general) and she was just phenomenal. After the mesmerizing approach to the drama I did not expect that diminuendo up top! 
I enjoyed all but since I only know a few arias from the opera I don't know the tradition for the soprano. Carteri seemed comparatively melodramatic ( those chest tones  ) but if this thing isn't melodramatic, what is? Maybe that's preferred. 
For me, I can't really picture anyone topping Olivero.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> For me, I can't really picture anyone topping Olivero.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Well I can't say any of these did much for me. Raisa's was nicely sung, but I didn't feel any real connection with the music. I always find Olivero's fast vibrato distracting and on this occasion I didn't find her performance interesting enough to counteract it. Carteri tried hard - probably too hard. 

My vote is for the video Woodduck posted.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


>


Like I said, This is not one I've heard 25 or 50 times so if there are expectations of how it usually goes, I don't carry them. I'm still leaning Olivero. Callas is working her usual magic but on a listen, I thought the art was intruding abit. When she really slows down in the middle of each verse, I thought she lost spontaneity where Olivero lost none. Callas is, of course, un-afraid to get strident up high and its powerful. But I find Olivero's purer sound to have the same intensity up there and the arching line with the diminuendo is killer...to me, not at all showy. But Callas is certainly on her game and we know what that means.

After writing my first say I was surprised to find out you were so not taken with Olivero. I think she has a real character, shades her words, has intensity and great beauty.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Next round will be a duet. I hope it works as a contest for you.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Like I said, This is not one I've heard 25 or 50 times so if there are expectations of how it usually goes, I don't carry them. I'm still leaning Olivero. Callas is working her usual magic but on a listen, I thought the art was intruding abit. When she really slows down in the middle of each verse, I thought she lost spontaneity where Olivero lost none. Callas is, of course, un-afraid to get strident up high and its powerful. But I find Olivero's purer sound to have the same intensity up there and the arching line with the diminuendo is killer...to me, not at all showy. But Callas is certainly on her game and we know what that means.
> 
> After writing my first say I was surprised to find out you were so not taken with Olivero. I think she has a real character, shades her words, has intensity and great beauty.


I think Olivero has made more of this aria on other occasions. I hear the problem here as technical in origin; her vocal production is so dominated and constrained by her incredibly fast vibrato - better described as a tremor, as if from some condition of the nerves that creates involuntary shivering - that she can't vary her vocal tone much and has to rely on more obvious effects. It seems a fairly predictable mannerism with her that her voice will break, often into a spasmodic sob, at the end of an aria. I'm glad the effct is more retrained here than it sometimes is. I'll also grant that the diminuendo at the climax is impressive. On reperated listening I find her doing more with the text than I heard first time around, when that crazy tremolo was constantly grabbing my attention. I believe she brought that more under control later in her career.

Callas avoids broad or melodramatic effects, instead finding shades of feeling through imaginative articulations of the notes, at most using the intake of breath, which has to occur anyway, in an expressive way. In this aria she makes us feel the solitude, stillness, and cold air of the prison, painting the words of the text through the many shadings of which her voice is capable. It's a subtle, inward interpretation, very different from the more overt emotionality most singers go for. However one rates it, it's an artistic achievement of typical uniqueness and integrity. She always finds a way of making music sound new, making us feel that we've never quite heard it before.

L'altra notte in fondo al mare
Il mio bimbo hanno gittato,
Or per farmi delirare dicon ch'io
L'abbia affogato.
L'aura è fredda,
Il carcer fosco,
E la mesta anima mia
Come il passero del bosco
Vola, vola, vola via.
Ah! Pietà di me!
In letargico sopore
E' mia madre addormentata,
E per colmo dell'orrore dicon ch'io
L'abbia attoscata.
L'aura è fredda,
Il carcer fosco...

_The other night at the bottom of the ocean
my little boy was lying.
In order to drive me mad, they told me
I drowned him.
The air is cold,
the cell gloomy,
and my spirit,
like a sparrow in the woods,
flies, flies, flies away.
Ah! Pity me!
Into a lethargic sleep
I lulled my mother,
and, crowning horror, they say
that I poisoned her.
The air is cold,
the cell gloomy..._


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> I think Olivero has made more of this aria on other occasions. I hear the problem here as technical in origin; her vocal production is so dominated and constrained by her incredibly fast vibrato - better described as a tremor, as if from some condition of the nerves that creates involuntary shivering - that she can't vary her vocal tone much and has to rely on more obvious effects. It seems a fairly predictable mannerism with her that her voice will break, often into a spasmodic sob, at the end of an aria. I'm glad the effct is more retrained here than it sometimes is. I'll also grant that the diminuendo at the climax is impressive. On reperated listening I find her doing more with the text than I heard first time around, when that crazy tremolo was constantly grabbing my attention. I believe she brought that more under control later in her career.
> 
> Callas avoids broad or melodramatic effects, instead finding shades of feeling through imaginative articulations of the notes, at most using the intake of breath, which has to occur anyway, in an expressive way. In this aria she makes us feel the solitude, stillness, and cold air of the prison, painting the words of the text through the many shadings of which her voice is capable. It's a subtle, inward interpretation, very different from the more overt emotionality most singers go for. However one rates it, it's an artistic achievement of typical uniqueness and integrity. She always finds a way of making music sound new, making us feel that we've never quite heard it before.
> 
> ...


I know Callas's version so well that I can hear it in my mind's ear just by reading the lyrics; the way she mirrors the huge crescendo and diminuendo in the orchestra on the words _Or per farmi delirare dicon ch'io_, the chilled, blank tone on _L'aura è freddo_ and the way she makes the voice flit as her mind wanders on the _Vola, vola_ (and how perfectly she articulates the fioriture and trills here too). Then there is the horror she gets into her voice on _E per colmo dell'orrore _, the second verse even more intense than the first, the baleful sound of her chest voice. The aria is after all a mini mad scene and Callas perfectly expresses Margerita's fractured mental state, her isolation and her instability. I'm afraid none of the other singers above give me quite that level of musical and dramatic insight.

The aria was recorded in 1954 for her _Lyric and Coloratura_ recital album and her complete identification with it was probably helped by the fact that she had recently sung the role at the Arena di Verona.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I apologize for my miscalculation of presenting these singers after I presented Callas already. I didn't follow my plan for dealing with the Callas juggernaut issue that seems to please everyone. Live an learn. In the future she will be allowed to win and have runners ups, which is the way that keeps all happy. Duets next.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The aria was recorded in 1964 for her _Lyric and Coloratura_ recital album and her complete identification with it was probably helped by the fact that she had recently sung the role at the Arena di Verona.


There's a typo in your post - the Lyric & Coloratura recital was recorded in 1954.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> her vocal production is so dominated and constrained by her incredibly fast vibrato .......... I believe she brought that more under control later in her career.
> 
> Callas ........She always finds a way of making music sound new, making us feel that we've never quite heard it before.


My personal response to those vibrato's is that I never know how much it will impede my enjoyment. It didn't help my first impression of Amato, I really didn't like it in Olivero's Signore Ascolta and I didn't mind it at all here. The Signore Ascolta was my literal introduction to Olivero's voice and there the nutty ending threw me way off........isn't she the one who made a late career MET debut in Tosca in the 70's with, the way I remember it, Corelli?

Everything you say about Callas....Yes!!! I was wowed by Olivero's rendition and still, Callas steps in and says yeah but you aint heard this!! Interesting...the Olivero opening, which for me had the great stamp of a character in a situation and the voice making that happen (maybe she sounds like that every time, I don't know)........ that kind of characterizing with the voice is , obviously, owned by Callas!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

MAS said:


> There's a typo in your post - the Lyric & Coloratura recital was recorded in 1954.


It didn't seem enough to post, but I definitely was thinking how surprising that Callas sounds this good in '64!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

MAS said:


> There's a typo in your post - the Lyric & Coloratura recital was recorded in 1954.


Thank you. Duly noted and changed.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I apologize for my miscalculation of presenting these singers after I presented Callas already. I didn't follow my plan for dealing with the Callas juggernaut issue that seems to please everyone. Live an learn. In the future she will be allowed to win and have runners ups, which is the way that keeps all happy. Duets next.


I'm sorry, John. I didn't mean to bring up the C word, but Woodduck posted her version and it brought up a host of memories, as her unique accents in this aria are imprinted in my brain, but then they are in most of the music she sang. In any case, I'm not sure that the value of the contests is in the winners, but in allowing us to hear singers we may have not known or were only peripherally aware of. It is natural that those of us who know her work well will make comparisons whether she is part of the competition or not. If it's an aria I know well, I often do this also with other artists, hence, for instance, with the _Cortigiani_ excerpt, I find it hard to listen to it without hearing Gobbi's version in my mind's ear.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> I'm sorry, John. I didn't mean to bring up the C word, but Woodduck posted her version and it brought up a host of memories, as her unique accents in this aria are imprinted in my brain, but then they are in most of the music she sang. In any case, I'm not sure that the value of the contests is in the winners, but in allowing us to hear singers we may have not known or were only peripherally aware of. It is natural that those of us who know her work well will make comparisons whether she is part of the competition or not. If it's an aria I know well, I often do this also with other artists, hence, for instance, with the _Cortigiani_ excerpt, I find it hard to listen to it without hearing Gobbi's version in my mind's ear.


Nothing to apologize for. My formula seems to work and I forgot to follow it and also I forgot about not having included Callas in my earlier contest. LOL. It was not a role she was identified with. I think my formula allows Callas devotees to wax poetic and give her the wreath while still acknowledging the talents of other singers. It is a win win and I forgot to follow it. If you were less passionate you would be more boring.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Raisa is one of my favourite sopranos. One can hear her bel canto training by Barbara Marchisio, one of Rossini’s favourite singers, in the fluency of the coloratura and trills. Her somewhat detached interpretation, in my opinion, seems appropriate for the bleak atmosphere of the aria. We also need to keep in mind that recording conditions then were not conducive enough to produce musically or dramatically perfect recordings like the Callas’ version.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Raisa is one of my favourite sopranos. One can hear her bel canto training by Barbara Marchisio, one of Rossini's favourite singers, in the fluency of the coloratura and trills. Her somewhat detached interpretation, in my opinion, seems appropriate for the bleak atmosphere of the aria. We also need to keep in mind that recording conditions then were not conducive enough to produce musically or dramatically perfect recordings like the Callas' version.


My friend Ellen and I loved listening to her version. No one today can sing like that.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> We also need to keep in mind that recording conditions then were not conducive enough to produce musically or dramatically perfect recordings like the Callas' version.


I agree and would extend it to vocally....perhaps what you meant! I had the thought during Raisa's performance that it reminded me of Ponselle recordings (the only old soprano recordings I ever listened to) that didn't come out so well....hooty sounding upper notes that I knew had to be caused by the technology.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Nothing to apologize for. My formula seems to work and I forgot to follow it and also I forgot about not having included Callas in my earlier contest. LOL. It was not a role she was identified with. I think my formula allows Callas devotees to wax poetic and give her the wreath while still acknowledging the talents of other singers. It is a win win and I forgot to follow it. If you were less passionate you would be more boring.


_It was not a role she was identified with? _ Maybe for persons un-Callased! :lol:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

MAS said:


> _It was not a role she was identified with? _ Maybe for persons un-Callased! :lol:


I love a lot of her stuff but I am not a scholar like half our forum. I could name all of the roles she is most famous for easily, but some are bound to slip through my cracks.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I love a lot of her stuff but I am not a scholar like half our forum. I could name all of the roles she is most famous for easily, but some are bound to slip through my cracks.


No worries - she only sang Margherita in one production at the Arena di Verona (1954) and it didn't count for much; it wasn't broadcast and she sang only three performances; but the aria recorded in the fall of 1954 is a classic.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> _It was not a role she was identified with? _ Maybe for persons un-Callased! :lol:


We could argue about what it means to be "identifed" with a role, but Callas is the only singer I can think of who is celebrated for roles, or at least arias from roles, she never sang in the theater, or did so only once or twice. In some instances - I think first of Carmen and Butterfly, and of many of the French arias she recorded late in her career - her interpretations, which were not developed over time and with the experience of repeated performance, are so imaginative and musically impeccable as to be many people's preferred performances.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> We could argue about what it means to be "identifed" with a role, but Callas is the only singer I can think of who is celebrated for roles, or at least arias from roles, she never sang in the theater, or did so only once or twice. In some instances - I think first of Carmen and Butterfly, and of many of the French arias she recorded late in her career - her interpretations, which were not developed over time and with the experience of repeated performance, are so imaginative and musically impeccable as to be many people's preferred performances.


I have more soprano contests than I do other voice types because I know the genre best, but could save myself a lot of effort just to present Callas only for any aria she sang and let people gush and gush and not have to endure lesser singers' versions. I try to keep it interesting as I enjoy a lot of different sopranos.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I have more soprano contests than I do other voice types because I know the genre best, but could save myself a lot of effort just to present Callas only for any aria she sang and let people gush and gush and not have to endure lesser singers' versions. I try to keep it interesting as I enjoy a lot of different sopranos.


That's an odd view, and I don't think you're quite serious. I don't consider appreciative appraisals of great art to be "gushing," nor do I think that even the greatest artists make other artists uninteresting or unnecessary. If there were only one way to perform a piece of music, and if we had only one performance to listen to - no matter how fine - most of us would find other pursuits to fill the time we spend listening and talking about music.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> That's an odd view, and I don't think you're quite serious. I don't consider appreciative appraisals of great art to be "gushing," nor do I think that even the greatest artists make other artists uninteresting or unnecessary. If there were only one way to perform a piece of music, and if we had only one performance to listen to - no matter how fine - most of us would find other pursuits to fill the time we spend listening and talking about music.


Exaggeration but with a kernal of truth;-)Gush may not be the operative word. I gush but generally no one agrees with me in this forum LOL Extensive explanation of why Callas' version is always superior to every other artist's version is perhaps better I am NOT saying that may not be correct. It most often is. I am not into football but it is like a season where one team wins every contest it is in. It sort of takes the fun away for other teams but is fun for the team winning. With the exception of the latest contest where I forgot the Callas issue I think my formula keeps it interesting for all but still allows Callas to always win in our singing contests. She is not diminished as an artist, she probably merits to be considered the ultimate interpreter of any aria she sang but other singers stand a chance of being considered and appreciated by our diverse but fun group. I also would be very surprised if she didn't win every contest I plan to include her in.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> We could argue about what it means to be "identifed" with a role, but Callas is the only singer I can think of who is celebrated for roles, or at least arias from roles, she never sang in the theater, or did so only once or twice. In some instances - I think first of Carmen and Butterfly, and of many of the French arias she recorded late in her career - her interpretations, which were not developed over time and with the experience of repeated performance, are so imaginative and musically impeccable as to be many people's preferred performances.


Lady Macbeth would be one of those roles that people think of as being a quinessential Callas role, and yet she only sang the one series of performances at La Scala in 1952, the tapes of which only became widely available in the late 1970s. Before that all we had were the three big arias on her Verdi recital of 1958, causing many people to consider her the perfect Lady M.

Incidentally the roles she sang most often were Norma (84), Violetta (58), Tosca (53), Lucia (43), Medea and Aida (31), her earlier career accounting for the majority of performances of Tosca, which she sang very rarely after 1953 (never at La Scala), and Aida, which she dropped from her repertoire in 1953, except for the recording of 1955. She managed to clock up 23 performances of Turandot between January 1948 and May 1949, before she dropped that too. Next is Amina at 21 performances and the *Trovatore* Leonora at 20.

Some of the roles she is "identifed" with she only sang rarely, or only on record (Carmen). They would no doubt include Anna Bolena (12), Rossini's Armida (3), Amelia in *Un Ballo in Maschera* (5), Elvira in *I Puritani* (13), Gioconda (12) (she sang as many Isoldes as Giocondas), Abigaille (3), and Elena in *I Vespri Siciliani* (11).


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Exaggeration but with a kernal of truth;-)Gush may not be the operative word. I gush but generally no one agrees with me in this forum LOL Extensive explanation of why Callas' version is always superior to every other artist's version is perhaps better I am NOT saying that may not be correct. It most often is. I am not into football but it is like a season where one team wins every contest it is in. It sort of takes the fun away for other teams but is fun for the team winning. With the exception of the latest contest where I forgot the Callas issue I think my formula keeps it interesting for all but still allows Callas to always win in our singing contests. She is not diminished as an artist, she probably merits to be considered the ultimate interpreter of any aria she sang but other singers stand a chance of being considered and appreciated by our diverse but fun group. I also would be very surprised if she didn't win every contest I plan to include her in.


John: I hear what you are saying. I certainly am a Callas lover for her voice and her artistic way of approaching roles and the creative way she has with the music, but frankly, even I am starting to get "Callased out" because it looks like this forum is slowly turning into a Callas worshipping site.
I don't need to hear Maria coupled with other singers because I guarantee you I know the outcome already and it can get a bit boring.
It is pretty well known that I love Olivero but I would not want to hear her compared to other singers all the time either.
(I expect to have the Callas worshippers grab me by the throat any minute so I'm outta here.)


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Exaggeration but with a kernal of truth;-)Gush may not be the operative word. I gush but generally no one agrees with me in this forum LOL Extensive explanation of why Callas' version is always superior to every other artist's version is perhaps better I am NOT saying that may not be correct. It most often is. I am not into football but it is like a season where one team wins every contest it is in. It sort of takes the fun away for other teams but is fun for the team winning. With the exception of the latest contest where I forgot the Callas issue I think my formula keeps it interesting for all but still allows Callas to always win in our singing contests. She is not diminished as an artist, she probably merits to be considered the ultimate interpreter of any aria she sang but other singers stand a chance of being considered and appreciated by our diverse but fun group. I also would be very surprised if she didn't win every contest I plan to include her in.


John, your contests are phenomenal and I don't think you need to be persuaded of that...you can see how everyone participates again and again. You have a bunch of opera lovers who REALLY appreciate what Callas does and that shows up. But the brilliance of the contests is that, even though score is kept, discussion is the point...sharing opinions, passions and insights. No one really cares who wins, we just want to see our thoughts on the page!!

I realize I've been experiencing it for months and you for years. But this stuff is subjective and I think you may just want to be a little more upfront about the things you love about Joannie and anyone else you'd like to see get their due. The high notes and big voices you adore are every bit as much a part of why opera moves us as the drama is.

I've been thinking for some time of how to word a thread that compares the importance of the beauty of the music with the importance of the drama of the music and haven't come up with it yet. (anyone who beats me to it, go for it!! You'll do me a favor). Callas is a giant but NO ONE is the final word. You are giving us the gift of these contests and the renditions we might never hear otherwise. I think you should share a few more of your opinions! Let the Callas lovers put that in their pitch-pipe and smoke it!! :lol:


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Lady Macbeth would be one of those roles that people think of as being a quinessential Callas role, and yet she only sang the one series of performances at La Scala in 1952, the tapes of which only became widely available in the late 1970s. Before that all we had were the three big arias on her Verdi recital of 1958, causing many people to consider her the perfect Lady M.
> 
> Incidentally the roles she sang most often were Norma (84), Violetta (58), Tosca (53), Lucia (43), Medea and Aida (31), her earlier career accounting for the majority of performances of Tosca, which she sang very rarely after 1953 (never at La Scala), and Aida, which she dropped from her repertoire in 1953, except for the recording of 1955. She managed to clock up 23 performances of Turandot between January 1948 and May 1949, before she dropped that too. Next is Amina at 21 performances and the *Trovatore* Leonora at 20.
> 
> Some of the roles she is "identifed" with she only sang rarely, or only on record (Carmen). They would no doubt include Anna Bolena (12), Rossini's Armida (3), Amelia in *Un Ballo in Maschera* (5), Elvira in *I Puritani* (13), Gioconda (12) (she sang as many Isoldes as Giocondas), Abigaille (3), and Elena in *I Vespri Siciliani* (11).


Where would I be without her Armida and Gioconda!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

ScottK said:


> John, your contests are phenomenal and I don't think you need to be persuaded of that...you can see how everyone participates again and again. You have a bunch of opera lovers who REALLY appreciate what Callas does and that shows up. But the brilliance of the contests is that, even though score is kept, discussion is the point...sharing opinions, passions and insights. No one really cares who wins, we just want to see our thoughts on the page!!
> 
> I realize I've been experiencing it for months and you for years. But this stuff is subjective and I think you may just want to be a little more upfront about the things you love about Joannie and anyone else you'd like to see get their due. The high notes and big voices you adore are every bit as much a part of why opera moves us as the drama is.
> 
> I've been thinking for some time of how to word a thread that compares the importance of the beauty of the music with the importance of the drama of the music and haven't come up with it yet. (anyone who beats me to it, go for it!! You'll do me a favor). Callas is a giant but NO ONE is the final word. You are giving us the gift of these contests and the renditions we might never hear otherwise. I think you should share a few more of your opinions! Let the Callas lovers put that in their pitch-pipe and smoke it!! :lol:


We need more emoji's. I need a brotherly hug one!!!!!!!! Bless you.
I would love a thread like that? "Which trumps ( bad choice of words)? Beauty or Drama??"


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> We need more emoji's. I need a brotherly hug one!!!!!!!! Bless you.
> I would love a thread like that? "Which trumps ( bad choice of words)? Beauty or Drama??"


Drama, for me, but what I really want is truth, for, as John Keates once said,

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

How about the Poker Scene from "La Fanciulla del West?" Especially as done by Tebaldi and Colzani.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> How about the Poker Scene from "La Fanciulla del West?" Especially as done by Tebaldi and Colzani.


I'll check that out darlin' !!!!!!!!!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Drama, for me, but what I really want is truth, for, as John Keates once said,
> 
> "Beauty is truth, truth beauty,-that is all
> Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."


Got to admit Tsaraslondon, I've pondered that one for some time and come up dry. Now* I AM NOT* trying to talk you out of it. I only responded because I actually have thought about it.

"already with thee...tender is the night!" there's the Keats that sticks with me!

(Guess this discussion can't go too far...if we don't get the police on us we'll at least get Woodduck!)


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> John, your contests are phenomenal and I don't think you need to be persuaded of that...you can see how everyone participates again and again. You have a bunch of opera lovers who REALLY appreciate what Callas does and that shows up. But the brilliance of the contests is that, even though score is kept, discussion is the point...sharing opinions, passions and insights. No one really cares who wins, we just want to see our thoughts on the page!!


Exactly.



> I've been thinking for some time of how to word a thread that compares the importance of the beauty of the music with the importance of the drama of the music and haven't come up with it yet. (anyone who beats me to it, go for it!! You'll do me a favor).


A subject of eternal significance and a fine idea. I'm a lazy old coot - you don't appear to be similarly afflicted - and I prefer to leave thread-starting to others, so I hope you'll carry through with this one. I was just thinking this morning about Callas as Madama Butterfly, and how despite my thinking that her assumption of the role is more fascinating and powerful than anyone else's, I'd still rather hear the haunting voice of Victoria de los Angeles floating ethereally above the voices of her companions as she enters, as well as her and Bjorling in the love duet.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Exactly.
> 
> A subject of eternal significance and a fine idea. I'm a lazy old coot - you don't appear to be similarly afflicted - and I prefer to leave thread-starting to others, so I hope you'll carry through with this one. I was just thinking this morning about Callas as Madama Butterfly, and how despite my thinking that her assumption of the role is more fascinating and powerful than anyone else's, I'd still rather hear the haunting voice of Victoria de los Angeles floating ethereally above the voices of her companions as she enters, as well as her and Bjorling in the love duet.


Well it's not Callas's best moment in the opera (and the dizzying high D hardly helps) but thereafter she just draws me in and I hang on almost every word. Not that I don't like De Los Angeles in the role. In fact her earlier recording with Di Stefano and Gobbi (who makes more of the role of Sharpless than anyone I've heard) is one of my three favourites, along with the Scotto/Barbirolli.

But what you just said reminded me of one critic discussing Vickers's Tristan on the Karajan studio recording. After praising Vickers for his absorption in the role, his terrifyingly real pain and saying it was one of the most emotionally wrought performances he'd ever heard in the studio, he decided he never wanted to hear it again. Where does one draw the line, I wonder? Callas's Butterfly is so bleakly moving I can only subject myself to it once in a while. With both performances it's as if we have peered into the abyss and it's hard to get back from there.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I'll check that out darlin' !!!!!!!!!


Here ya go!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I was just thinking this morning about Callas as Madama Butterfly, and how despite my thinking that her assumption of the role is more fascinating and powerful than anyone else's....


John and Nina...Don't read this! I'm about to do the Callas thing :lol: Just one hit, I swear, I'm quitting tomorrow !!!

I'm not a Butterfly fan but this forum has led me down many new paths already (and that is priceless!!!) and I would be happy if I altered my take on Butterfly. My one gem from the opera came from a cassette sent to me by an old friend with great arias and duets from here and there -all of us old enough for cassettes must have done that I'm sure!!! - and he included, of all things, the letter duet with Callas and BORRIELLO (thank you Tsaraslondon)..."Incomminciate" All I can remember thinking was ..."who does this????" I'd never heard an opera singer so completely put a character into their voice that it actually changed their voice like that. The duet was all I had but I remember thinking "this really can't even be compared with another singer because the approach is so different!" I remember wondering if Puccini had ever even imagined anything like this. But "non lo rammenta piu..." Forget about it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

nina foresti said:


> Here ya go!


It is done. I am limited in her competition as it is a difficult role to do well, but it should be fun.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> John and Nina...Don't read this! I'm about to do the Callas thing :lol: Just one hit, I swear, I'm quitting tomorrow !!!
> 
> I'm not a Butterfly fan but this forum has led me down many new paths already (and that is priceless!!!) and I would be happy if I altered my take on Butterfly. My one gem from the opera came from a cassette sent to me by an old friend with great arias and duets from here and there -all of us old enough for cassettes must have done that I'm sure!!! - and he included, of all things, the letter duet with Callas and Gobbi..."Incomminciate" All I can remember thinking was ..."who does this????" I'd never heard an opera singer so completely put a character into their voice that it actually changed their voice like that. The duet was all I had but I remember thinking "this really can't even be compared with another singer because the approach is so different!" I remember wondering if Puccini had ever even imagined anything like this. But "non lo rammenta piu..." Forget about it.


The Sharpless on the Callas recording is Mario Borriello. Gobbi is on the first De Los Angeles recording.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Well it's not Callas's best moment in the opera (and the dizzying high D hardly helps) but thereafter she just draws me in and I hang on almost every word. Not that I don't like De Los Angeles in the role. In fact her earlier recording with Di Stefano and Gobbi (who makes more of the role of Sharpless than anyone I've heard) is one of my three favourites, along with the Scotto/Barbirolli.
> 
> But what you just said reminded me of one critic discussing Vickers's Tristan on the Karajan studio recording. After praising Vickers for his absorption in the role, his terrifyingly real pain and saying it was one of the most emotionally wrought performances he'd ever heard in the studio, he decided he never wanted to hear it again. Where does one draw the line, I wonder? Callas's Butterfly is so bleakly moving I can only subject myself to it once in a while. With both performances it's as if we have peered into the abyss and it's hard to get back from there.


I don't know Butterfly as it is too sad, but it has a D6????????


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> How about the Poker Scene from "La Fanciulla del West?" Especially as done by Tebaldi and Colzani.


Awesome scene!!! How does she do that without killing her voice?? First music other than "Ch'ella mi creda" I've heard from Fanciulla...great scene!! Thanx!!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> The Sharpless on the Callas recording is Mario Borriello. Gobbi is on the first De Los Angeles recording.


Is there a Callas Gobbi somewhere? I'm going to grab it and hope it isn't dried out and cracked but I was sure i had Callas Gobbi. Is that impossible?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Is there a Callas Gobbi somewhere? I'm going to grab it and hope it isn't dried out and cracked but I was sure i had Callas Gobbi. Is that impossible?


Not possible I'm afraid. She only ever sang three stage performances of the opera, in Chicago in 1955, and none of those performances were recorded. In any case the Sharpless then was Robert Weede.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Awesome scene!!! How does she do that without killing her voice?? First music other than "Ch'ella mi creda" I've heard from Fanciulla...great scene!! Thanx!!


Ironically, this was Tebaldi near the end of her career when her voice was anything but top notch, yet in this role she gave an incredibly compelling performance.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Not possible I'm afraid. She only ever sang three stage performances of the opera, in Chicago in 1955, and none of those performances were recorded. In any case the Sharpless then was Robert Weede.


Alright...I hope my wording made it clear that I trusted your info!

Older age (I still insist on that -er) has presented me with this before...blending old memories. Michael sent me both versions, on separate tapes, back when and over time I put the legendary couple together. I was getting nervous because I found De Los Angeles first and was talking to myself "I know that Callas thing I JUST WROTE ABOUT is legit!"...and then found the other tape!

Thanks for saving me from holding forth, inaccurately, again!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> Ironically, this was Tebaldi near the end of her career when her voice was anything but top notch, yet in this role she gave an incredibly compelling performance.


It obviously wasn't the pure thing of her early days but it sounds like it was just right for Minnie. I've heard good things about Fanciulla musically and I know you love it. I'll listen to anything you put up here Nina.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I don't know Butterfly as it is too sad, but it has a D6????????


At the end of her entrance. It's optional. Not all sopranos attempt it. De Los Angeles certainly didn't. I'll assume Tebaldi didn't either.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> It is done. I am limited in her competition as it is a difficult role to do well, but it should be fun.


Gigliola Frazzoni and Eleanor Steber may be good competitors.


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## Shaafee Shameem (Aug 4, 2021)

Tsaraslondon said:


> At the end of her entrance. It's optional. Not all sopranos attempt it. De Los Angeles certainly didn't. I'll assume Tebaldi didn't either.


Most sopranos don't. Apart from Callas, Freni and Steber are the ones I can recall attempting it.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Shaafee Shameem said:


> Gigliola Frazzoni and Eleanor Steber may be good competitors.


GF was a good tip!!!


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