# Bernstein's controversial "Nimrod"



## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

Anybody else familiar with Bernstein's famously slow take on the "Nimrod" variations from Elgar's _Enigma Variations_? From the first time I heard it, it shook me. I actually like what he did, because of his tempo, the climax was so marvelously built to and when it arrived it seemed so much more powerful than in previous versions I'd heard. Opinions? Here it is in case you are not familiar with it.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sorry, Celibidache, Bernstein was not.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

I had not heard that one. nicely played, but I do not like the selection that slow.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Absolutely abysmal. I remember well when this happened and the bad feeling amongst the orchestra towards LB.
He breezed into the first rehearsal and in his typical arrogant manner announced to the BBC Symphony orchestra that whatever they thought they knew about Elgar, they could forget it as Lennie would show them how.(This the orchestra of Boult and Barbirolli conducting Elgar for decades)
Well the orchestra fought with him all the way through and thankfully the experiment was never repeated.
I am convinced that many of Bernstein's later interpretations were so bizarre, that he was pushing the "sides of the envelope" to see just how much he could do to the music. His last movement of the Tchaikovsky Pathetique at double the time normally needed and his late Sibelius, all of it so turgidly slow. Well the Elgar fell into this category also.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pip said:


> Absolutely abysmal. I remember well when this happened and the bad feeling amongst the orchestra towards LB.
> He breezed into the first rehearsal and in his typical arrogant manner announced to the BBC Symphony orchestra that whatever they thought they knew about Elgar, they could forget it as Lennie would show them how.(This the orchestra of Boult and Barbirolli conducting Elgar for decades)
> Well the orchestra fought with him all the way through and thankfully the experiment was never repeated.
> I am convinced that many of Bernstein's later interpretations were so bizarre, that he was pushing the "sides of the envelope" to see just how much he could do to the music. His last movement of the Tchaikovsky Pathetique at double the time normally needed and his late Sibelius, all of it so turgidly slow. Well the Elgar fell into this category also.


Frustrated composer as conductor, much? That made more bizarre because he did compose, and pretty damned well knew what he was looking at, and that the tempo marking (with a latitude to go in this slow direction anyway) could only be taken so far.

Reading the musicians were utterly resistant only adds to what I hear here.... people dragged along, at a tempo much against their collective wills. Any good orchestra can make any conductor or soloist look bad without pointing the blame on the band -- a more than successful slight of hand while committing sabotage I bet that is what was going on in this recording.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

PetrB said:


> Frustrated composer as conductor, much? That made more bizarre because he did compose, and pretty damned well knew what he was looking at, and that the tempo marking (with a latitude to go in this slow direction anyway) could only be taken so far.
> 
> Reading the musicians were utterly resistant only adds to what I hear here.... people dragged along, at a tempo much against their collective wills. Any good orchestra can make any conductor or soloist look bad without pointing the blame on the band -- a more than successful slight of hand while committing sabotage I bet that is what was going on in this recording.


Absolutely right PetrB - He put their noses out of joint from the moment he walked into the rehearsal room with his entourage,
and they resisted him almost to the last man and woman. He was reputedly a little "high", and his mannerisms really got them so upset that the enterprise was up against it from the word go. For years afterwards most members of the orchestra refused to even countenance working with him again.
He used to regularly conduct the LSO however, without great problems, but he was never loved or revered as a conductor in the UK.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

This is where LPs were handy...just crank up the RPMs. Problem solved


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Couac Addict said:


> This is where LPs were handy...just crank up the RPMs. Problem solved


... along with the pitch level proportionately, sadly. But now, proTools can take care of that 

And that little crank up the RPM's was sometimes done by record companies in the studio before release. I recall a recording of Prokofiev's Piano concerto No. 3, with John Browning, pianist. 
_The speed on the recording had it closer to C# _


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

PetrB said:


> And that little crank up the RPM's was sometimes done by record companies in the studio before release. I recall a recording of Prokofiev's Piano concerto No. 3, with John Browning, pianist.


Browning, obviously, studied the greats.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The most famous controversy regarding Bernstein was a collaboration with Glenn Gould of the Brahms first piano concerto in 1962. Bernstein addressed the audience before the performance disassociating himself from Gould's soon to be slow as molasses performance.


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

I would add another question then (since everyone seems to hate the Bernstein recording): What is your favorite recording of the _Enigma Variations_?


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I like Bernstein's conducting, but British music was never his strong point. He wasn't very good in French music either. Anyway, I don't care much for his performances of Elgar. Dragging out the time of _Nimrod_, for example, just doesn't even make any sense. The _Enigma Variations_ is work of short character pieces. It's not meant to be played at a snell's speed. It's quite arrogant of him to perform Elgar in this manner. Even Solti is a better Elgarian than Bernstein.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Rachmanijohn said:


> I would add another question then (since everyone seems to hate the Bernstein recording) what is your favorite recording of the _Enigma Variations_?


Barbirolli, Boult (EMI), A. Davis (Philharmonia), Elder, Monteux, Stokowski...there are so many good ones.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rachmanijohn said:


> Anybody else familiar with Bernstein's famously slow take on the "Nimrod" variations from Elgar's _Enigma Variations_? From the first time I heard it, it shook me. I actually like what he did, because of his tempo, the climax was so marvelously built to and when it arrived it seemed so much more powerful than in previous versions I'd heard. Opinions? Here it is in case you are not familiar with it.


I like it too. 
I like his looong pathetique last movement as well.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Wow, it sounded like it turned into a New Age ambient thing lol


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I wasn't a huge fan of this version in particular, but I REALLY wish that more conductors would do this (take tempos to the limits). It gives variety to the different performances, and sometimes such tempo adjustments can be a refreshing look on old standards. Not to mention, some of my favorite performances of certain works have all been on the extreme ends of tempo (Vivaldi's Winter played super-fast, or the adagio assai from Ravel's concerto in G played super-slow, take the cake for me!)


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

Agreed. Krystian Zimmerman's slow take on the Chopin Concerto No.1 especially in the first movement brought to light some startlingly beautiful moments that fly by too quickly in average performances of it. It was fresh and I loved it.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Fiddling with tempi is all very well, but I don't think doing it for its own sake is a great idea.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

hpowders said:


> The most famous controversy regarding Bernstein was a collaboration with Glenn Gould of the Brahms first piano concerto in 1962. Bernstein addressed the audience before the performance disassociating himself from Gould's soon to be slow as molasses performance.


Yes, but then years later he recorded an even slower one of the Brahms 1 with Zimermann!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The point with Betnstein's Nimrod is it cannot take the tempo he sets - or he cannot conduct it and hold the line together at that speed. Tempi is an illusion. One performer can sustain a slow tempo but the other can't. I have a recording of Gould playing the Beethoven pastoral symphony in Liszt's piano arrangement. The tempi are impossibly slow. But it works because Gould can sustain them with some incredible pianism. In fact it must be some of the most remarkable piano playing ever committed to disc.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I guess he wanted to make an "Adagietto" out of it. However, I do like the tempo of his Sibelius's 5th and 7th.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Stargazer said:


> I wasn't a huge fan of this version in particular, but I REALLY wish that more conductors would do this (take tempos to the limits). It gives variety to the different performances, and sometimes such tempo adjustments can be a refreshing look on old standards. Not to mention, some of my favorite performances of certain works have all been on the extreme ends of tempo (Vivaldi's Winter played super-fast, or the adagio assai from Ravel's concerto in G played super-slow, take the cake for me!)


This is quite on 'the edge,' but, like those other performances, the noted generally slower tempi of Celibidache, the playing still has that needed forward momentum which makes it 'work.' If you did not know of this performance, I think you will be pleased at what you hear.


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

Berstein was known for extremes, but sometimes his tempo felt so right that I couldn't listen to anyone else's version. This made me particularly picky considering how unique his tempo-choices were. 

He took Nimrod too far, but it was rare that he take things too far. His Mahler is the some of the best, second only to Horenstein.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Like I said, the _Enigma Variations_ are short character pieces and Bernstein dragged _Nimrod_ out too far. I've never heard the complete performance of this Bernstein/BBC SO, but from the sound of _Nimrod_, I would rather dodge that bullet.


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## stevederekson (Jan 5, 2014)

PetrB said:


> This is quite on 'the edge,' but, like those other performances, the noted generally slower tempi of Celibidache, the playing still has that needed forward momentum which makes it 'work.' If you did not know of this performance, I think you will be pleased at what you hear.


That recording is gorgeous.


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## Rachmanijohn (Jan 2, 2014)

Anybody actually listen to the whole piece? Once the climax is reached, how can you not feel it's power? Too many conductors actually rush it; it's much more majestic this way. Grandiose.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

PetrB said:


> This is quite on 'the edge,' but, like those other performances, the noted generally slower tempi of Celibidache, the playing still has that needed forward momentum which makes it 'work.' If you did not know of this performance, I think you will be pleased at what you hear.


Actually, that was exactly the recording I was referring to in my post .


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## mikey (Nov 26, 2013)

Rachmanijohn said:


> Anybody actually listen to the whole piece? Once the climax is reached, how can you not feel it's power? Too many conductors actually rush it; it's much more majestic this way. Grandiose.


I do agree the climax is something spectacular when it FINALLY appears. I'm not sure I agree with it but it's certainly interesting. I was reading a review who mentions that at this tempo, it emphasizes that none of the phrase marks last more than a bar. (I should check that).
I would love to see the rehearsal video of him and the trumpet player going having it out apparently but there are only snippets on youtube.


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