# Mahler 8, 2 parts???????



## mahlerfan (Mar 31, 2007)

Today I received Mahler Symphony #8 in the mail, as well as Das Lied von der Erde and Aaron Copland's "_What to Listen for in Music_." I find it a bit strange that Mahler's Eighth, while being as fantastic and colossal a work as all his others, is divided into two "parts", rather than the usual 4-5/6 movements. I am relatively new to Classical Music, but I am wondering, is this common for a symphony to be divided into parts rather than movements, or is Mahler 8 just an exception?


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

You can actually divide the 8th in more sections, the second part I mean (that's what the EMI booklet for Tennstedt shows, I'll transcribe it later for you as I can't seem to find the cd right now).

Which versions did you purchase?


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## mahlerfan (Mar 31, 2007)

Thank you! I purchased the version with Leonard Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic.


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## The Mad Hatter (Feb 20, 2007)

Er, you can't really break the second part down musically.

mahlerfan: I think Mahler was the first to divide symphonies into parts, rather than movements, but he hasn't been the only one.

The fifth symphony was in three parts as well: Part I is the first two movements, Part II the third movement, and Part III the last two.


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## mahlerfan (Mar 31, 2007)

Yes, glad you brought that up, *The Mad Hatter*. The Fifth _is_ arranged in three parts, though these "parts" are still consisted of movements, whereas the Eighth seems to be just two parts, without specific movements titled with tempo markings, unlike all of his others.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

The EMI Double forte booklet presents the tracks as follows:

*Part I* - Hymnus: Veni, creator spiritus
*Allegro spirituoso:*
'Veni, Creator Spiritus' 
'Imple Superna Gratia' 
Infirma Nostri Corporis' 
'Accende Lumen Sensibus' 
'Veni, Creator Spiritus'

*Part II*

*Poco Adagio*:
'Waldung, Sie Schwankt Heran' 
'Ewiger Wonnebrand' - Jorma Hynninen 
'Wie Felsenabgrund Mir Zu Fussen' - Hans Sotin 
*Allegro deciso:*
'Gerettet Ist Das Edle Glied' 
'Uns Bleibt Ein Erdenrest' 
'Hier Ist Die Aussicht Frei' - 
'Hochste Herrscherin Der Welt' - 
*Adagissimo:*
'Dir, Der Unberuhrbaren' 
'Bei Der Liebe, Die Den Fussen' - 
'Neige, Neige, Du Ohnegleiche' - 
'Blicket Auf Zum Retterblick' - 
'Alles Vergangliche' 
'Gloria Patri Domino'

It makes sense for me. But can't check with other recordings as this is the only original one I have. All the other 8th's in my posession come from broadcasts and rare stuff.


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## mahlerfan (Mar 31, 2007)

Thanks a lot, *Manuel*!


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

*Part I* is indeed continuous, but as *Manuel *states, *Part II* can be broken down into 3 sections.

Incidentally, these 3 sections loosely correspond to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th mvmts of a standard symphony, and Adagio, a Scherzo and a Finale... _loosely_.









The 1916 American premiere of Mahler's 8th, Leopold Stokowski and the Philadelphia Orchestra.

Notice the 2nd violins on the outside, the cellos on the inside and the contrabasses behind the 1st violins. Cruicial seating for Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler (Vienna).


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> *Part I* is indeed continuous
> 
> 
> > With the clear exception of the _Ac *'* cende lumen sensibus_.


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## mahlerfan (Mar 31, 2007)

Yes I have seen that picture before, *Kurkikohtaus*, very cool, though I never before noticed the different seating until what you said. Very interesting...Thanks for pointing that out!


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

One salient comment on the structure of Mahler's 8th was articulated by program annotator Michael Steinberg, who said that we'd call it an oratorio, if Mahler hadn't called it a symphony. The whole issue of nomenclature of works is interesting. My impression is that we give wide latitude to composers in this regard. What makes Berlioz' _Fantastique_ a symphony, but Rimsky-Korsakov's _Scheherazade_ a "symphonic suite," other than the appelations of their creators? _Das Lied_ has been called a "symphony disguised as a song-cycle," but if so, it's a disguise that's a virtual embodiment. Alternatively, Shostakovich 14 can be accurately enough called a "song-cycle disguised as a symphony." An instance where nobody's fooled is Lalo's _Symphonie Espagnole_, which is called a "concertante work for violin & orchestra," even if it contains stretches that have the feeling of a full-blown concerto.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Along the lines of nomenclature that *Chi_Town* is discussin, *Sibelius 7th* was premiered in 1924 under the title _*Fantasia Sinfonica*_, when the work was still unpublished. It was published a year later with the final title Symphony No. 7.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

mahlerfan said:


> Today I received Mahler Symphony #8 in the mail, ... I find it a bit strange that Mahler's Eighth, while being as fantastic and colossal a work as all his others, is divided into two "parts", rather than the usual 4-5/6 movements.


Two parts. Yes that is another cool thing about Mahler's 8th. I recently discovered Mahler and am really starting to love the 8th.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> Two parts. Yes that is another cool thing about Mahler's 8th. I recently discovered Mahler and am really starting to love the 8th.


And there's me thinking a new member kicked this thread up.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> And there's me thinking a new member kicked this thread up.


I just discovered there is a list of "similar threads" at the bottom of every thread. I see 5 listed below and 4 of them are nearly 10 years since the last post. Some of these don't come up when I Google search for TC Mahler threads.


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