# Anybody knows the differences between Russian and Viennese Waltz



## Rachmaninov

Hi guys!! I've got an interest in knowing more about different types of waltz music. Everyone knows the Strauss family was very famous in composing Viennese waltz.

Recently, I've listened to some Russian waltz ("On the Manchurian Hills", "The Amur Waves", "Autumn Dream Waltz") as well as Shostakovich's Second Waltz and Sviridov's The Snowstorm-Waltz. After listened for several times, I realized that wherever in melodic style, feelings and emotional express, the russian's are very different from the type of Strauss' and even Tchaikovsky's. It seems that the particular Russian types are more melancholic and expressive, they rarely contain such kinds of grand and joyful atmosphere like the Vienesse.

So, I would like to ask; as both of them are waltz, why there will be so different (In melody, style etc...)?? And in history, was the Russian one also originated from Viennese?? Would anybody tells more historcal background about the Russian type?? Also, could you recommend me more pieces of Russian Waltz??

Hope you may help to explain and thank you very much!! 

PS: Maybe I can post the links of waltz that I've listened

Russian Waltz:
1)The Amur Waves:





2) On the Manchurian Hills:





3) Autumn Dream Waltz:





4)Sviridov's The Snowstorm-Waltz





5) Shostakovich's Jazz Suite No.2-Waltz





Viennese Waltz:
1) Jr. Strauss II's Die Fledermaus





2) Jr. Strauss's Voices of Spring:


----------



## Ciel_Rouge

Origins:

"Shocking many when it was first introduced,[11] the waltz became fashionable in Vienna around the 1780s, spreading to many other countries in the years to follow. It became fashionable in Britain during the Regency period,[12] though the entry in the Oxford English Dictionary shows that it was considered "riotous and indecent" as late as 1825."

Russian waltzes are indeed more serious and melancholic and I also like them a lot. There is a reason why Tchaikovsky's waltzes are different - he tried to write closer to the galant style but still created something very distinct and Russian in character. Other composers decided to explore the strictly Russian flavour and I guess they all succeeded pretty well. I already knew the Shostakovich and Sviridov but the Amur Waves are also very beautiful - thanks for the link.

I am considering giving the waltzes a closer look and even trying to learn how to dance.


----------



## Zanralotta

Rachmaninov said:


> Viennese Waltz:
> 1) Jr. Strauss II's Die Fledermaus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Jr. Strauss's Voices of Spring:


Funny that you mention those two, because I played them in January with my orchestra (alongside Tchaikovsky's Waltz of the Flowers)...

The Viennese waltz has a rhythmic peculiarity: the early second beat.

Take e. g. the Fledermaus Overture you linked to.
In 3:02, the orchestra plays a rhythm unisono. The score says in this place that two eighths/quavers (followed by the two and three as quarter notes/crotchets) are two be played, but in Viennese style, the notes are not equally long. The first is shortened to a sixteenth/semi-quaver, the other lengthened.

In a Viennese waltz, the first beat is shortened. The two is played about a triplet eighth before the beat.
Example: The Blue Danube
Especially noticeable around 1:51, 4:55, 5:38, 6:08...
My conductor always makes rhythmic exercises with my orchestra when we play a Viennese waltz. Very difficult.

It's this rhythm which makes the Viennes Waltz "swing" (Pun intended: Jazz musicians do something very similar when they play Swing).


----------



## Rachmaninov

Thanks for your posts and the information provided!! Nice to meet Russian waltzes' fans here!!

Replying to *Ciel Rouge*. I am a Russian waltz lover also and would like to look into it. However I get a lot of 'Question Marks', so hope to get more knowledge here. Alright, do you have any information about when waltz was introduced to Russia?? I wonder if it was introduced during late imperial period or the Soviet times, is it true??

I've found one more Russian composer who wrote waltzes, he is called Andrej Petrov. Maybe I can post more links:

1) Valse from the movie "Beware Of Automobile" (Russian: Вальс из кинофильма "Берегись Автомобиля") 





2) Valse from the movie "St. Petersburg Mysteries" (Russian: Вальс из кинофильма "Петербургские Тайны") 





I think the music also give melancholic mood. But structurally, for example the tempo and rhythmic changes, key changes etc... Can somebody compare and explain analytically, what the major differences between Russian and the Viennese waltzes??

In addition, I can say from my rough analysis, it seems that many Russian waltzes give darker melancholic melodies. The reason behind these were they because the Russian composers like to mix folks with waltz??

It also seems that the one written in Soviet period are more melancholy than the one in imperial times, is it true that the composers (like Shostakovich's and Sviridov's) love to add their political emotion to the music (waltz) which makes such a dark and melancholic feeling???


----------



## Ciel_Rouge

Great vid for the Danube, intriguing combination of waltz and ballet. I hope someone will add more about music theory, all I can give you are my personal impressions so far. I like Petrov's use of the flute as well as oboe and clarinet and switching between instruments. St. Petersburg Mysteries was closer to my taste but they were both interesting to watch.

As far as the moment of introducing waltz to Russia, it was definitely before the Soviet era since Tchaikovsky was "late imperial"  Shostakovich and Sviridov composed during the Soviet era.

You could also try a waltz by Dvorak:


----------



## Guest

There is a theory - well, with rather good evidence! - that the Russian Waltz aka _Valse a Deux Temps_ was developed in Russia and then _exported_ to France. The peculiarity wasn't in the musical form, but the dance-step used for it - quite different to the traditional waltz-step.

Wikipedia explains:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valse_à_deux_temps

As pointed-out quite correctly above (bravo!) the Russian waltz is played in "straight|" time and the anticipation of the second beat - typical for the Viennese Waltz - isn't found in Russia.

Since we were asked for some more examples of the Russian Waltz, one very famous example is in the central scene of Act One of WAR & PEACE by Prokofiev - where Natasha Rostova and Prince Andrei finally meet each other once again at the Grand Ball, and a waltz is played in which - when it is correctly choreographed, of course  - the two lovers inevitably arrive in each other's arms?

It's a typical example of the "melancholic" waltz that shoots off into an accelerando now and then, and here are Olga Guryakova and Nathan Gunn as the ill-fated lovers dancing (and singing) it: 




(top marks to Gunn on fantastic Russian pronunciation)


----------



## Rachmaninov

Reiner Torheit said:


> It's a typical example of the "melancholic" waltz that shoots off into an accelerando now and then, and here are Olga Guryakova and Nathan Gunn as the ill-fated lovers dancing (and singing) it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (top marks to Gunn on fantastic Russian pronunciation)


Hi *Reiner*, nice to meet you, thanks for the sharing and your recommendation and glad to hear a voice from Moscow as well!!

Well you've mentioned that the peculiarity of Russian Waltz wasn't in the musical form, but the dance step for it. However, there is something I've discovered in the music and still curious about; is that apart from the type of waltz that was composed by Tchaikovsky, it seems that the melodies of the one composed in revolutionary and Soviet times tends to be darker and the musical atmosphere also looks rather melancholic. Moreover it makes you feel there is a strong and deep emotions the music wants to express, commonly it is not as joyful as the Vienesse. Do you know what is the reason behind?? I guess was it because some political emotions have been put by the composers into the music at that period of time (e.g. WWII Soviet against Berlin, imperial Russia against Japan, communist revolution etc...)??

On the other hand, I found another Russian waltz clip from Youtube; but it only captioned in Russian. So, do you know the name of this?

Link:





Thank you!!


----------



## Ciel_Rouge




----------



## Guest

Rachmaninov said:


> On the other hand, I found another Russian waltz clip from Youtube; but it only captioned in Russian. So, do you know the name of this?


I didn't know this one before, but I'm happy to help with deciphering the labelling on the video clip  Apparently it's "Waltz Of The Flowers" (a different one to the Tchaikovsky, evidently), and it's from a film called "There was a May month".

I know what you mean about the "lugubrious" nature of some Russian waltzes - it was what prompted me to post that clip from WAR & PEACE, where the waltz is definitely quite sombre and stately, and not the heart-spinning Viennese kind. I'm not sure what the social or musical background to these melancholy Russian waltzes might be, though!

They are not always sombre, however - there is a Waltz in Tchaikovsky's piano cycle THE SEASONS (actually it's really THE MONTHS, but he calls it The Seasons anyhow!) and it has a light and delicate quality that always reminds me of ice-skating


----------



## Rachmaninov

Reiner Torheit said:


> Apparently it's "Waltz Of The Flowers" (a different one to the Tchaikovsky, evidently), and it's from a film called "There was a May month".


Oh I see! It is called "Waltz of the Flowers". Thanks for the finding.



Reiner Torheit said:


> I know what you mean about the "lugubrious" nature of some Russian waltzes - it was what prompted me to post that clip from WAR & PEACE, where the waltz is definitely quite sombre and stately, and not the heart-spinning Viennese kind...


Yes, exactly what I want to describe for the majority of Russian waltz. Thanks also for giving me the word "lugubrious" and "sombre". Truly it's quite different between Russian and Viennese waltz, same as you mentioned, the Russian one is not heart-spinning just like the Viennese. It would probably keep a sombre, melancholic and expressive mood, like Argentinian Tango. I think that are the elements and factors which make Russian waltz so unique and seductive to audiences including me.

I've found some more that I think are attractive, but I'm not sure about the names, maybe I can post to share:

1)




2)




3)




4)




5)




6)




7)




8)




Hope you like them!


----------



## Ciel_Rouge

Ah yes, the Cinderella Waltz by Prokofiev  And of course the Masquerade by Khatchaturian. I am not crazy about the military element in the rest, but I do appreciate creative use of the accordeon and even vocals added to the waltz. I guess the accordeon shows that there may indeed be a distant relation between a tango and a serious Russian waltz.


----------



## Guest

Just to translate/transliterate the titles of the above which are not presented on YouTube in English

1) "Beriozka" = "Birch Tree Waltz" (this one is old and found in C19th popular music albums).

2) State Red Army Vocal & Instrumental Ensemble "In the forest near the Front"

3) "Officers - Winter Offensive"

Something I noticed about all of the above was a generally cynical attitude towards comfort and happiness in Russian culture - which is regarded as something pleasant and desirable, but fleeting and hard/impossible to grasp... the happy memory of it becomes tinged with sadness in the waltz.

There might be something in this? The demographics of Russia - even today - are that 70% of people live in small villages and settlements. In the C19th that figure would have been even higher. Many of course have _been_ in the big cities where they may have been to dances, balls, and social gatherings.. but then the remainder of their lives (especially the latter end of them) are lived in places with no such entertainments. (Of course, recorded music has slightly changed the accessibility to the music itself - but we're talking about the social aspects of big dances etc).

This is especially notable in Siberia. If you go to Irkutsk, you can visit the House Museum of Count Volkonsky. Volkonsky was a dashing hussar in the 1812 war with Napoleon, but later he was implicated in a plot to unseat the Tsar and put the Tsar's brother on the throne. For this he and his wife - a French Princess in her own right - were exiled to Siberia. In the house you can see their piano (which was dragged from Moscow on the back of a huge sledge, around 3500 miles) and the Princess's opera glasses. "Of course, she never had a need for them in Siberia" guides are prone to saying.

This feeling of sadness and longing even has a name in Russian, "_tos-ka"_, and it's a recognised social phenomenon in Russian society. Perhaps the waltz is connected with this?


----------



## Rachmaninov

Reiner Torheit said:


> Just to translate/transliterate the titles of the above which are not presented on YouTube in English
> 
> 1) "Beriozka" = "Birch Tree Waltz" (this one is old and found in C19th popular music albums).
> 
> 2) State Red Army Vocal & Instrumental Ensemble "In the forest near the Front"
> 
> 3) "Officers - Winter Offensive"


First of all, thanks very much for the translation, you helped me a lot!! Sometimes I listened to some marvelous Russian waltz from Youtube and want to know the name. However it is only available in Russian language, too bad!!

Yes, perhaps sorrowful, sadness, and grievous character are mostly Russian's culture. I've never travelled to Russia before, the closest place I've travelled near Russia is only Japan. As I know, Russia's climate is very extreme, it freezes and snows all the time. Will it possibly be the bored weather condition that makes people to have this special attitude?

Moreover, as majority of population lives in rural villages and they get very few entertainment, will it also probably that they add folk music to the waltz, and they would like to express themselves by dancing waltz?

I've found one more website, lots of Russia Soviet music is available, maybe I can recommend: 
http://www.sovmusic.ru/english/


----------



## Guest

Russia's climate is "Extreme Continental" due to being highly landlocked and the high elevation.

This means that although the winters are very cold (averagely from -15C down to -40C, but can be as low as -55C), BUT the summers are very hot! Today it was 32C here and sweltering!


----------



## Rachmaninov

Reiner Torheit said:


> Russia's climate is "Extreme Continental" due to being highly landlocked and the high elevation.
> 
> This means that although the winters are very cold (averagely from -15C down to -40C, but can be as low as -55C), BUT the summers are very hot! Today it was 32C here and sweltering!


Oh I see! All my perception about Russia's climate is only it is very cold round the year, I really don't know it will get such a high temperature in summer.

If the fact is that, I guess the summer in Russia will be similar to Hong Kong; coz the temperature in Hong Kong is 31C today, and has very low wind speed and high perentage in relative humidity. Always get such a bored weather in summer, that's why air-cond. is vital for all Hong Kong people. Although we get used to this climate; sometimes we really feel extremely uncomfortable.

Eat more cups of Häagen-Dazs, my dear friend! Ha Ha...


----------



## Nerys

I would like to ask the name of the composer of Autumn Dream old Russian waltz as I am looking to read the biography of the composer. I tried google searches no luck. Anyone know this?


----------



## Pugg

Nerys said:


> I would like to ask the name of the composer of Autumn Dream old Russian waltz as I am looking to read the biography of the composer. I tried google searches no luck. Anyone know this?







Is this it? If yes the name is on your screen.


----------

