# JCS



## breakup

I am in the process of preparing to lead a discussion during adult Sunday school on the lyrics of Jesus Christ Superstar. Does anyone have any advice on how to proceed, or thoughts on the lyrics in relation to Christianity. I'm not sure if it will happen this next Sunday or the following Sunday but I'm sure it will take more that one session to cover everything.


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## SixFootScowl

Hmmm, I suspect this thread will be locked pretty quickly. Topic might do better in an appropriate group (one may exist, or start a group): http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/.


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## Steatopygous

Florestan said:


> Hmmm, I suspect this thread will be locked pretty quickly. Topic might do better in an appropriate group (one may exist, or start a group): http://www.talkclassical.com/groups/.


Why? It is undeniably music with a religious topic.

Is your concern that those opposed to religion will hijack the thread? Would that not be trolling? We've just been talking about that in Area 51, as you probably know.

HOwever, I'm afraid that I don't know the music well enough. Of course I've heard many of the numbers. One of the things that would interest me is how much of the musical (or whatever the right term is) is contexturally accurate, and how much it reflects the California of its time. To the extent that there is a separation, there might be interesting theological reflections there.


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## SixFootScowl

Since the question is about teaching the lyrics in Sunday school, it invariably would come down to comparing the lyrics with the Bible, which seems like it would not fit the forum rules. It's fine with me if people want to do that here. Just saying, it seems like the thread will not get very far before it gets shut down. But so far, nobody is jumping into the discussion. And if we are to discuss this we need to know if the lyrics for the whole production is to be to be taught or just the one song, Superstar.


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## Taggart

Purely personal opinion. It's a musical adaptation of a well known book. Should be no different to discussing how true to Victor Hugo's intentions _Les Mis_ is.

We saw the film in the 70's back to back with the Lew Grade _Jesus of Nazareth_ Quite a weird experience which pointed up the shallowness of JCS compared to the power of a more straightforward treatment of the story.

I would be tempted to pick on particular songs e.g. the romantic love Mary Magdalene has for Jesus. In the ballad, "I Don't Know How to Love Him," which strays from the Bible, and develop from there.


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## breakup

I will first find out how many are familiar with the music, especially how many have seen any of the productions. My self I saw the stage production in the middle 70's, twice right after it came off Broadway. I have also seen both movies several times, and a college production on stage. I also had the original cast album and just about Easter, for several years, would get the urge to listen to it, and sometimes I would follow along with the lyrics. My plan is to first ask if there are any particular songs that people in the group want to address, otherwise I would start from the first and proceed to examine each song in turn. I have read several reviews and most reviewers feel that the lyrics were pretty close to the Bible text, but I have noted several places where Tim Rice seems to have expanded on what is written. I am aware that from very early on "I don't know how to Love Him" was used by fundamentalist groups to prove the blasphemy of the music, but having listened several times, I don't see where it contradicts what is generally believed about Jesus relationship with Mary in the Bible. And the lyrics state what many others in the group felt about Jesus, there seemed to be a lot of confusion among his followers. One more point I should make is that like I have told many people about the musical, JCS is not really about Jesus, it's more about everyone around him and their perception of him. Even where Jesus says things that do not exactly match scripture, if you look at it from the other peoples perspective, this is what they might have thought Jesus was saying. 

FYI I attend Christ Lutheran Church in Dillsburg Pa. and I would say that we are not very conservative. I think the fact that we have a lady pastor would put us outside some of the more conservative denominations.


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## breakup

Steatopygous said:


> Why? It is undeniably music with a religious topic.
> 
> Is your concern that those opposed to religion will hijack the thread? Would that not be trolling? We've just been talking about that in Area 51, as you probably know.
> 
> HOwever, I'm afraid that I don't know the music well enough. Of course I've heard many of the numbers. One of the things that would interest me is how much of the musical (or whatever the right term is) is contexturally accurate, *and how much it reflects the California of its time.* To the extent that there is a separation, there might be interesting theological reflections there.


I think I get your reference to California, but I should point out that both Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice were British, and I believe they both still live in England.


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## DavidA

I heard Rice talk about JCS. It is Jesus from the point of view of Judas. The lyrics are by an atheist so we shouldn't really expect anything too biblical. Some great songs but I never listen to it now on principle.


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## Manxfeeder

breakup said:


> One more point I should make is that like I have told many people about the musical, JCS is not really about Jesus, it's more about everyone around him and their perception of him. Even where Jesus says things that do not exactly match scripture, if you look at it from the other peoples perspective, this is what they might have thought Jesus was saying.


Bingo. The theme of JCS is, who is this guy? That's the theme of Judas' song, "Who are you? What have you sacrificed? Don't you get me wrong. I only want to know." And of course, the people get it wrong. The musical seems to be about people struggling to understand who he really is. And in that way, it is relevant to our society. The large institutions are losing or have lost their ability to dictate dogma to the masses, and now it seems like people are confronting Jesus for themselves and are filled with questions. Maybe you can take a particular song and ask the group, what is this person's perception of Jesus? Is it accurate? In what way are they missing the point? How does their background or backstory affect their perception of him? Can we personally do the same?


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## Steatopygous

breakup said:


> I think I get your reference to California, but I should point out that both Andrew Lloyd Weber and Tim Rice were British, and I believe they both still live in England.


Oops. My bad. Still, it _sounds_ Californian to me.


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## SixFootScowl

breakup said:


> FYI I attend Christ Lutheran Church in Dillsburg Pa. and I would say that we are not very conservative. I think the fact that we have a lady pastor would put us outside some of the more conservative denominations.


I would guess your church is ELCA. I am in WELS (fairly conservative Lutheran group) but not in total agreement with them. I would certainly be looking at the production with a very critical eye, but your point of it being about peoples perceptions is a good one to keep in mind when reviewing the production. I confess that I have never seen it and have only heard the main song that was played quite regularly on the radio back in the day--and I was not a Christian in those days.


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## breakup

Florestan said:


> I would guess your church is ELCA. *I am in WELS (fairly conservative Lutheran group) but not in total agreement with them.* I would certainly be looking at the production with a very critical eye, but your point of it being about peoples perceptions is a good one to keep in mind when reviewing the production. I confess that I have never seen it and have only heard the main song that was played quite regularly on the radio back in the day--and I was not a Christian in those days.


Yes we are part of the ELCA. We should probably compare notes as there is much in the ELCA dogma that I must rationalize to accept. Though I don't say it out loud in church.


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## Manxfeeder

Florestan said:


> I confess that I have never seen it and have only heard the main song that was played quite regularly on the radio back in the day--and I was not a Christian in those days.


Looking back on those days, I saw the movie before I was a Christian or knew much about the Bible. I remember it was the Gethsemane scene that shocked me and had the most impact. I was used to Prozac Jesus, who was always in control, and here he is, struggling with dying? It was the first hint that Jesus may be more like me than I thought, and it was one of the things that year that got me interested in exploring who Jesus really is.

Whatever someone feels about it, it did present Jesus to people in a way that a church pulpit wasn't able to.


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## Ingélou

I have seen the film a couple of times. I enjoyed it, and didn't find it shocking or blasphemous, and I was not unmoved, but I did think it was shallow compared with other productions about the life of Jesus. 

I like Mary Magdalene's song - the point she's making is that she can't compare the love of Jesus with the profane sexual love that she's experienced up till now. In the early church, much was made of this figure as someone to identify with in her emotional response to the Crucifixion - you can see that in art - and she was also, with the Virgin Mary, an example of a powerful female figure, and was sometimes called a co-apostle. So in a way, Jesus Christ Superstar is not particularly breaking new ground! 

Mary of Magdala was traditionally identified with the prostitute who washed Jesus' feet in the bible, and that was one of the surprising things about Jesus for people both then and now - that he reached out beyond conventions to the real person who was face to face with Him. So again, I think the film treatment is fairly justifiable. 

Quite a lot of the lyrics have their origins in the gospels at least as far as ideas are concerned - for example, King Herod's song when he wants to see Jesus perform some amazing tricks for him - Luke 23 v.8.


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## Steatopygous

Manxfeeder said:


> Looking back on those days, I saw the movie before I was a Christian or knew much about the Bible. I remember it was the Gethsemane scene that shocked me and had the most impact. I was used to Prozac Jesus, who was always in control, and here he is, struggling with dying? It was the first hint that Jesus may be more like me than I thought, and it was one of the things that year that got me interested in exploring who Jesus really is.
> 
> Whatever someone feels about it, it did present Jesus to people in a way that a church pulpit wasn't able to.


But that Jesus is very present in the bliblical accounts, ie the four Gospels. Don't let human preachers be an impediment.


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## GreenMamba

I always liked the bit where Judas scolds Mary Magdalene for spending many on ointments, and Jesus gives him the "poor will always be with us" line. Judas is very interesting in the musical.


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## Morimur

This is more of a general comment, but there aren't many good biblical films out there. The best one I've seen is 'The Gospel of Matthew' by Pier Paolo Pasolini.


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## SixFootScowl

Morimur said:


> This is more of a general comment, but there aren't many good biblical films out there. The best one I've seen is 'The Gospel of Matthew' by Pier Paolo Pasolini.


There is a new one coming out supposed to be pretty good. My Son, My Savior--trailer.


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## mountmccabe

As others have noted, the musical takes a lot of events and details from the biblical stories and filters them in non-standard ways and achieves a different focus than many churches have.

The focus is on Jesus's life, not his death or the after effects. The focus is on the apostles questioning, being unsure and weak, not on them leading the early church. It shows Jesus' struggles - which are biblical - but not his triumph. For the climax of the show we hear not from the dead (or resurrected) Jesus but the dead Judas with the questioning, sarcastic "Superstar." Everything ends with the crucifixion, leaving the viewer/listener to think on our own (if we wish) what happens next.

Also, as has been noted, they use the composite Magdalene idea, which is no longer accepted by most organizations (though it shows up in a lot of fiction based on the story such as book/film _The Last Temptation of Christ_, the film _The Passion of the Christ_, and the John Adams opera/oratorio _The Gospel According to the Other Mary_).


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## DavidA

Manxfeeder said:


> Looking back on those days, I saw the movie before I was a Christian or knew much about the Bible. I remember it was the Gethsemane scene that shocked me and had the most impact. I was used to Prozac Jesus, who was always in control, and here he is, struggling with dying? It was the first hint that Jesus may be more like me than I thought, and it was one of the things that year that got me interested in exploring who Jesus really is.
> 
> *Whatever someone feels about it, it did present Jesus to people in a way that a church pulpit wasn't able to.*


The problem is that the Jesus in JCS is not the Jesus of the gospels


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## DavidA

The best film on the life of Jesus is a film called 'Jesus'. It's been shown to more people over the world than any other film in history. It's certainly not a Holywood epic but it moves you with its simplicity.


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## Steatopygous

Florestan said:


> There is a new one coming out supposed to be pretty good. My Son, My Savior--trailer.


Many thanks for the link, and I will be interested to see it (perhaps. I almost never go to films because I go to so many concerts). One problem: how can Mary and Jesus speak with an American accent? Everyone knows that first century Palestinians spoke in received standard English.


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## SixFootScowl

DavidA said:


> The problem is that the Jesus in JCS is not the Jesus of the gospels


Good point. I did like the post you quoted because, even though JCS is off from the Biblical account, it somehow got Manxfeeder to look into the Biblical account. Not that that justifies JCS, but it is good that it moved him to look into the Biblical account. For many, it would not. Certainly not a "tool" the church would want to use for outreach.


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## Steatopygous

Florestan said:


> Good point. I did like the post you quoted because, even though JCS is off from the Biblical account, it somehow got Manxfeeder to look into the Biblical account. Not that that justifies JCS, but it is good that it moved him to look into the Biblical account. For many, it would not. Certainly not a "tool" the church would want to use for outreach.


Thanks. I completely agree that we want people to look at the Bible. That's what changed me, from a self-described intellectual atheist. Yet I hadn't a clue about what I was criticising. 
But I can't claim any credit for Manxfeeder. S/he is already a Christian - see post above. And JCS played some part in that.


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## SixFootScowl

Steatopygous said:


> Thanks. I completely agree that we want people to look at the Bible. That's what changed me, from a self-described intellectual atheist. Yet I hadn't a clue about what I was criticising.
> But I can't claim any credit for Manxfeeder. S/he is already a Christian - see post above. And JCS played some part in that.


Whatever the motivation for JCS, God can use it for his purpose. While it doesn't exactly fit, it reminds me of Philippians 1:15-18.


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## breakup

Today we are going to show the 2000 movie after church. The movie is almost 2 hours long and adult Sunday school is usually just a bit over 1 hour, so we'll see what happens. Next week will be the discussion.


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## Steatopygous

Well, I am sure that all those who have contributed to this thread will be fascinated to hear the responses.


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## breakup

Yes, I hope that will be an interesting discussion next Sunday. So far one person raised a question right after the movie was finished, "Was Judas forgiven for his part?", and I mentioned that the same question has been raised about Pilate. I can see one difference, Judas died before Jesus asked his father to "forgive them" and Pilate survived and died later, and was presumably included in those to be forgiven. But since Judas died before, was he included in the request for forgiveness, when Jesus was on the cross? 

BTW, my one thought is that both of them were doing what they were supposed to do, so how could you condemn them for playing their parts. Did they have any choice in their actions?


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## SixFootScowl

This appears to indicate that Judas was not forgiven:

John 17:12 New King James Version (NKJV)

12 "...and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."


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## Morimur

Judas never repented and was not forgiven. He committed suicide out of guilt—guilt isn't repentance. And no, Judas and Pilate were not merely playing pre defined roles—they exorcised absolute free will and are absolutely responsible. The Father is all knowing and nothing we do surprises him, but He has given us free will and we are rightly responsible for our actions—there are no free rides.


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## breakup

Morimur said:


> Judas never repented and was not forgiven. He committed suicide out of guilt-guilt isn't repentance.
> 
> And no, Judas and Pilate were not merely playing pre defined roles-they exorcised absolute free will and are absolutely responsible. The Father is all knowing and nothing we do surprises him, but He has given us free will and we are rightly responsible for our actions-there are no free rides.


How do you know that Judas didn't repent before committing suicide?

What was the scope and effect of Jesus petition for forgiveness of those who crucified him?


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## breakup

John 21:25King James Version (KJV)
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. 

Absence of evidence, in not evidence of absence.


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## SixFootScowl

One should never exclude someone from possibly being saved because they committed suicide. There is always the possibility of repentance even in the last instant before they die. Although the verse I quoted a few posts ago (John 17:12) seems to indicate that such last moment repentance was not the case for Judas.


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## breakup

With God, all things are possible.


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## Steatopygous

breakup said:


> Yes, I hope that will be an interesting discussion next Sunday. So far one person raised a question right after the movie was finished, "Was Judas forgiven for his part?", and I mentioned that the same question has been raised about Pilate. I can see one difference, Judas died before Jesus asked his father to "forgive them" and Pilate survived and died later, and was presumably included in those to be forgiven. But since Judas died before, was he included in the request for forgiveness, when Jesus was on the cross?
> 
> BTW, my one thought is that both of them were doing what they were supposed to do, so how could you condemn them for playing their parts. Did they have any choice in their actions?


I find this an interesting discussion at several levels:
1) What is repentance? Judas certainly suffered bitter regret and anguish, which are often part of repentance. 
2) But he is called the son of perdition, which would indicate that he did not repent and was not forgiven.
3) I don't accept your suggestion about "before" the request for forgiveness. God indicates that those who are his are known from before the foundations of the world. And God is outside time. There has been much fascinating debate about what that means, what eternity consists in (a quality, rather than duration). One helpful metaphor is that time is like a ruler running from 0 to 30 centimetres (creation to final judgement) but God is outside that, looking down from above as it were, so the whole of the ruler is as one to him. This is hopelessly simplified, but it opens the point for consideration.


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## Ingélou

Traditionally, Judas didn't give God the chance to forgive him, because he killed himself in a state of despair.

But also traditionally, people have felt sorry for him - hence the medieval legend that every week he was allowed a day off from Hell. 
http://nectar.northampton.ac.uk/5008/7/Mackley20075008.pdf

Judging by the New Testament evidence, on balance I think that the early church didn't think he had been forgiven - but on the other hand, according to Jesus, *nobody but God* knows the hour & the time & the state of each soul at death. Maybe there was a moment before Judas's death when clarity rushed in***. Also, we are told to 'judge not'.

I like to think that he may have been forgiven - not that it's any business of mine.
May God have mercy on all of us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
** Quoting again the medieval epitaph on someone who died after falling from his horse:

My friend, judge not me.
Thou seest I judge not thee.
Between the stirrup & the ground,
Mercy I sought - mercy I found.

*


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