# Blind Comparison - Vaughan Williams Symphony #5



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Yet another in my occasional blind comparison series, this time one of my favourite symphonies - Ralph Vaughan Williams Symphony #5

For those of you unfamiliar with these comparison threads, I am providing links to 4 different performances of the symphony but without any indication as to who, what, when, where and why! The idea is for you to listen to them and offer your opinions without having preconceived biases about the performers. The audio quality may vary especially if one is a live performance but I encourage you to filter that out and concentrate on the actual performance.

One common outcome is that some of the participants will find that their opinions are different from what they would have expected, and that can be a good thing. _But please do not feel intimidated, there are no correct answers, just listen, enjoy and say what appeals to you._ Don't feel that you have to write some lengthy critique, but do so if you want. I have also added a poll to this thread so that those who don't feel like posting can anonymously show their preference.

The idea here is not to guess who did them, although go ahead if you want to do so, however if you do recognize the performance, please don't spoil it for others by posting the names (you can PM me if you wish.) All I will say is that none of them are any of the well-known recordings, I intentionally avoid them as too many people will immediately recognize them.

Depending on how many participate (and please let us know if you intend to), I will post the details by the end of the weekend. You can also PM me if you want to know the details before I post them.

One last comment, I realize that 4 performances maybe a bit much for some, if so then feel free to pick and choose.

A - 1st a-1.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
2nd a-2.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
3rd a-3.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
4th a-4.mp3 - Shared with pCloud

B - 1st b-1.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
2nd b-2.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
3rd b-3.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
4th b-4.mp3 - Shared with pCloud

C - 1st c-1.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
2nd c-2.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
3rd c-3.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
4th c-4.mp3 - Shared with pCloud

D - 1st d-1.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
2nd d-2.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
3rd d-3.mp3 - Shared with pCloud
4th d-4.mp3 - Shared with pCloud


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Thanks Becca. An initial comparison of the first four minutes of each leaves me continuing to listen to C, preferring the more open recording, wider sound stage. I will also return to D as I quite like the faster tempo.


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Exceptional thread, Becca ... and thanks!!


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Becca said:


> Yet another in my occasional blind comparison series, this time one of my favourite symphonies - Ralph Vaughan Williams Symphony #5
> 
> For those of you unfamiliar with these comparison threads, I am providing links to 4 different performances of the symphony but without any indication as to who, what, when, where and why! The idea is for you to listen to them and offer your opinions without having preconceived biases about the performers. The audio quality may vary especially if one is a live performance but I encourage you to filter that out and concentrate on the actual performance.
> 
> ...





Becca said:


> Yet another in my occasional blind comparison series, this time one of my favourite symphonies - Ralph Vaughan Williams Symphony #5
> 
> For those of you unfamiliar with these comparison threads, I am providing links to 4 different performances of the symphony but without any indication as to who, what, when, where and why! The idea is for you to listen to them and offer your opinions without having preconceived biases about the performers. The audio quality may vary especially if one is a live performance but I encourage you to filter that out and concentrate on the actual performance.
> 
> ...


Subconsciously, or maybe consciously, I was almost looking-for (thinking-about) Sir Adrian Boult, but am SURE he's not one of the 4 choices. Thanks, also, for those pCloud downloads! ... as they show certain differences, in the 4 examples.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Vaughan Williams dedicated the symphony to Jean Sibelius. The musicologist J. P. E. Harper-Scott has called Sibelius "the influence of choice" among British symphonists in the years between the two World Wars, citing Walton's First Symphony, all seven of Bax's and the first five of Havergal Brian. The published ascription reads "Dedicated without permission to Jean Sibelius". Sir Adrian Boult subsequently secured permission. After listening to a broadcast of the work, Sibelius wrote to him, "I heard Dr. Ralph Vaughan Williams' new Symphony from Stockholm under the excellent leadership of Malcolm Sargent ... This Symphony is a marvelous work ... the dedication made me feel proud and grateful ... I wonder if Dr. Williams has any idea of the pleasure he has given me?"




.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I'll be having a go, Becca.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks folks, I look forward to seeing some of the opinions. If anyone else will be participating, please let me know so that I don't end up posting the details before you've had a chance to finish (currently scheduled for Sunday.)


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

2nd movement. A's tempo seems suitably brisk, (perhaps too brisk, now I've heard the others), but unexceptional, reminding me of Holst's Uranus combined with Mercury more than the others. B's more deliberate pace and wider soundstage means individual instruments can be heard more clearly. C's solo bassoon and flute are more prominent (I like) but the strings seem rather woolly, with a lot of background murmuring. D's horn led climax is better defined, but the mono recording is not to my taste.

My Haitink/London Phil takes this even slower at 5:33, while Manze/Royal Liverpool is just under 5.00. Both seem to fade out at the end too quietly (certainly for my tinnitus affected ears, even wearing headphones).

If "presto misterioso" means anything at all, A misses out the misterioso completely, but is certainly presto, where the others are more leisurely with out necessarily bringing any mystery.


----------



## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Becca,
Just discovered your post (midday Sat UK time) I will be struggling to get through four performances by close of play Sunday but if you wish to reveal the selections on Sunday please carry on - I'll not look at the thread until i've finished listening.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Malx said:


> Becca,
> Just discovered your post (midday Sat UK time) I will be struggling to get through four performances by close of play Sunday but if you wish to reveal the selections on Sunday please carry on - I'll not look at the thread until i've finished listening.


Let's see how things go. Enjoy!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Forster said:


> 2nd movement. A's tempo seems suitably brisk, (perhaps too brisk, now I've heard the others), but unexceptional, reminding me of Holst's Uranus combined with Mercury more than the others. B's more deliberate pace and wider soundstage means individual instruments can be heard more clearly. C's solo bassoon and flute are more prominent (I like) but the strings seem rather woolly, with a lot of background murmuring. D's horn led climax is better defined, but the mono recording is not to my taste.


I just checked again and D is definitely stereo although it is admittedly a rather narrow sound stage.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is definitely going to take me longer than the weekend. - perhaps by Monday I have now heard all four but too close together and with insufficient concentration to have a clear sense of them. I listened to two yesterday and two today and found myself preferring the first of the day both times - A (I liked its pacing) and D (I enjoyed it's Romantic feel)). But B and C were also good, I thought, so it doesn't help that so far I like them all in their different ways!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I can certainly hold off posting the details, anyone who wants to know before then can send me a private message (conversation on this new software.)


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

As it's around a decade since I last listened to this symphony, I thought I'd have a bash.
I know that there was the warning _"The audio quality may vary especially if one is a live performance but I encourage you to filter that out and concentrate on the actual performance" _but in C I simply couldn't hear enough of the music for the artefacts the minute anything started to get busy so have to eliminate that one. D is too fast in the first and third so goodbye to that - the atmosphere of repose just isn't there.
Between A and B, not so clearcut. A phrases naturally, good tempi for the most part and really not much to quibble about. B is a bit less consistent but gives an extra emotional push at times in the string phrasing which is welcome. Winner A from first run through but it's not impossible I might change my mind if I get time to explore more.


----------



## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Having spent a fair bit of time yesterday and this morning listening to the four recordings I am in some ways no closer to reaching a conclusion as to which I prefer.
I will state at this point this is not one of the VW symphonies I know well as I never been drawn to it, but as always with a bit more attention as given over the last couple of days I'm slowly warming to its charms.
With specific reference to the four recordings/performances selected by Becca - B & C seem to be similar in approach, an approach which is a bit more lively than A which has a more soulful (pastoral) feel to it, and D which seems to be a bit maverick in comparison to the other three.
In terms of my preference for the thread I am tempted to say A presents maybe the conservative, easy to live with side of VW interpretation one for this symphony works well and the other performance I warmed to is D just because it is different which always appeals to me. But as I said at the start of the post all four seem decent enough efforts for this listener.
As to which is the 'best' I'll leave that for others to decide.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I totally missed this thread until now!

Starting with D, I like the flowing tempo throughout, but overall it sounds too soft for the undercurrents to come out onto the pastoral surface effectively. (Even though, in my opinion, when compared to A Pastoral Symphony, the 5th is more of a pastoral symphony than a war symphony, relatively speaking.) The agony in the Romanza and the optimism in the Passacaglia both come out well enough, and I like that they do not moan. Good, overall, but I feel it sounds a bit too soft despite the relatively fast tempo. 

Will try to listen to the rest before the end of Tuesday.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I will hold off posting the gory details for another day, but as noted earlier, anyone who wants to know before then can send a private message.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

For what it's worth, I seem to be consistently preferring A and then D at the moment. I find B and C a little dull and my mind wanders. My preferences, however, seem marginal to me and it is quite possible I would hear them differently on another day. But, of these, I think it is A I would keep as having something to add to the recordings I have. 

With A I am not sure what it is but it there are many passages that are almost sublime and its pastoralism is almost ecstatic. It holds my attention. D reminds me of Vaughan Williams recordings by Munch that I have heard. I'm not saying that's who it is but it seems to go out of its way not to sound too English.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Onto C, better sonics than D definitely. It sounds purposeful from the outset. The changes in dynamics are there (D sounds flatter), but I feel that whenever the energy needs to be released, it is not released quite enough. Not bad, but not enough. Otherwise, the characters of the music come out very well throughout. The Romanza is particularly beautiful and certainly "romantic" in character. Slow and beautiful overall, it is pretty decent.


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Kiki said:


> I totally missed this thread until now!
> 
> (Even though, in my opinion, when compared to A Pastoral Symphony, the 5th is more of a pastoral symphony than a war symphony, relatively speaking.)


This has always been my view, too. no. 3 is too disturbing to be a true Pastoral symphony and I find it more emotionally searching somehow than 5, despite plenty of beautiful moments in the latter.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

#3 IS intended to be somewhat disturbing considering that the motivation was memories of the WW1 battle fields. Given that #5 includes music intended for _Pilgrim's Progress_, there is more solace in it. Having said that, a really good performance of #5 should have a subtle edge to it, which is why I preferred the Handley/RLPO recording to the Barbirolli/Halle which I first got to know.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

dko22 said:


> This has always been my view, too. no. 3 is too disturbing to be a true Pastoral symphony and I find it more emotionally searching somehow than 5, despite plenty of beautiful moments in the latter.


Good to know we share a similar opinion. I kind of think that A Pastoral Symphony is RVW's war symphony (or war-reminiscence symphony), while No. 5 is his pastoral symphony with war elements under WWII circumstances.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Becca said:


> #3 IS intended to be somewhat disturbing considering that the motivation was memories of the WW1 battle fields. Given that #5 includes music intended for _Pilgrim's Progress_, there is more solace in it. Having said that, a really good performance of #5 should have a subtle edge to it, which is why I preferred the Handley/RLPO recording to the Barbirolli/Halle which I first got to know.


Nicely put! Now I need to check out the Handley!


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

B next. Good playing is apparent. It is slow and beautiful like C, but the build-up and release is slightly more thoroughly done, and the characters of the music also stand out a bit more prominently. Maybe the slowness helps in articulating different moods. However, like C, much of the edge is barely noticeable probably due to the slowness. Overall, it is decent like C, but honestly I would like to hear it played faster.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

TBH, aside from the comments I made about the first few minutes of the opening movement, I found the differences between the four to be minimal, thus making a choice difficult.

B, 4th movement, in the early bars, there appeared to be a solo violin prominently recorded from the rest of the strings, where A, C and D didn't. The reentry of the horns at about 3:30 sounded slightly more or slightly less like a car horn blaring, so I assume that is as written.

In my Haitink, there is no car horn, the playing seems generally more even...I see no reason to give it up in favour of these four, but then again, odd individual quirks aside, they all seemed ok.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Lastly, A. Good playing again. It is also slow and beautiful, like B & C. However, it is a bit more fussy and even pretentious at places (mostly in the Preludio). The Scherzo, despite its faster speed, sounds flatter than B & C; but the Romanza and the Passacaglia sound more purposeful, and the build-up and release are rather good.

Honestly I cannot say I like any of these four enough to vote. A, B & C are decent in execution, but I definitely prefer something faster and more flowing. D's tempo is decent and it flows fluently, but it sounds flatter than the others. Its compressed dynamic range also does not help.

I am in a bit of a rush this time to play catchup. Ideally I would listen to them a few more times before making comments. Never mind. I am glad I made it this round.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Big thanks to everyone who took part ... here are the details ...
A - Royal College of Music Symphony - Antonio Pappano
B - Oslo Philharmonic - Vasily Petrenko
C - London Symphony - Simon Rattle
D - BBC Symphony - Adrian Boult

All of them are live performances
B - A 'pandemic' concert, i.e. in their hall but no audience
C - Also a 'pandemic' concert from 2020, the pseudo-Proms of that year, in the Royal Albert Hall with no audience and members of the orchestra are all socially-distanced.
D - A very recent, first ever release from a Proms concert.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Wow. It's good to know that Pappano's LSO Live VW recording is not the only VW recording of his that I love! I wouldn't have guessed that the orchestra were students. And don't I look stupid saying that the recording that turned out to be by Boult was trying to make the work sound un-English!

That challenge was harder work than usual but I found it very worthwhile spending some extended time with the work. Thanks, Becca!


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Despite my best efforts, I just could not finish the comparison in the given time frame - Over the course of the past five days I haven't been able to find the time needed to listen to the four movements of any of the symphonies sequentially from start to finish. My apologies for not being able to do the thread the justice it deserves. My compliments on the effort expended on your behalf.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Maybe A, B & C really are the same performance and I just used an audio editing tool to change the timing in order to mess with everyone 😆


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Yet again, a conductor I've never heard of produces results more to my liking than bigger names. Unlike his namesake Kyrill, Vasily Petrenko is at least a musician 
The Boult was a bit of a surprise as, although he's a little brisker than I like in my old LP, it's nothing compared to your live performance.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

My thanks for putting the time and effort into these kinds of threads - The software you used can be kind of temperamental - My compliments on being able to deal with 16 downloads.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

I watched the Rattle at the time, though I don't recall much about it...the 5th is fine enough, but it hasn't made the same impression as the 3rd, 6th and 7th.

Thanks again for arranging.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

dko22 said:


> Yet again, a conductor I've never heard of produces results more to my liking than bigger names. Unlike his namesake Kyrill, Vasily Petrenko is at least a musician
> The Boult was a bit of a surprise as, although he's a little brisker than I like in my old LP, it's nothing compared to your live performance.


Vasily Petrenko was the MD of the Royal Liverpool Phil for many years and recently took over the Royal Philharmonic.


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> Vasily Petrenko was the MD of the Royal Liverpool Phil for many years and recently took over the Royal Philharmonic.


I'm referring to Pappano as being the unfamiliar one, apologies if confusing. VP I've actually heard live here though I can't now remember what he did.....


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Sir Antonio Pappano, music director of Covent Garden for the last 20 years. He takes over from Rattle at the London Symphony in a year or two. Despite the name he is English.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> Big thanks to everyone who took part ... here are the details ...
> A - Royal College of Music Symphony - Antonio Pappano
> B - Oslo Philharmonic - Vasily Petrenko
> C - London Symphony - Simon Rattle
> ...


And all but the Boult currently available on Youtube!


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I'd have loved to get involved with the Blind Comparison, as I always have, Becca, but I'm pulled out at work at the moment (covering for missing staff, PRD, reports, etc)
When life calms down, next month, I'll be back to comment.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Forster said:


> And all but the Boult currently available on Youtube!


How about that


----------



## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Yay - I'm happy to have selected Boult as one of my two preferences, having said that if someone put a gun to my head and said name the conductor of 'D' Boult would not have sprung to mind. Which only goes to show how enlightening (and dangerous) these 'Blind Comparisons' invariably are.

Add my thanks to the crew, Becca - based on your recommendation I'm away to dig out my copy of Handley to see how he deals with the symphony.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> My thanks for putting the time and effort into these kinds of threads - My apologies for not being able to do them justice - But it's kind of your own fault - You left the door open and I just waltzed in... Maybe make the next "Blind Comparison" a "by invitation only" event so as to keep the riff-raff out -


At least you didn't lie down on my couch and cry your eyes out!


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Since the Boult came from a broadcast recording, that explains the narrow dynamic range, and that is also in line with ICA's tendency to do minimal when re-mastering such recordings. The real surprise for me is that, in a live concert in as late as 1972, he was much faster than his two studio recordings made in 1953 & 1969. I seldom think of him as being slow, but his two studio recordings are not particularly fast, and now having heard D, I know he was capable of doing it at a faster speed that I like. The problem I have with this broadcast recording is the narrow dynamic range. (By the way the narrow soundstage does not bother me.) I thought it could be due to the engineer, the conductor, or both; and regardless who the culprit was, it could be bad enough to make it sound flat, which is what I found and disliked.

The rest are slow but decent. I could have expected an even more beautiful sound from Rattle (C is not the most beautiful among the three, although they are close); more drama from Pappano (I suppose A is reasonable dramatic); and more drive from Vasily (which is more like a wish against reality as his recent recordings show he can be Celi in disguise).

Thanks Becca for arranging this blindcomp. I have enjoyed it although I was in a rush this time.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

FWIW, the Rattle/LSO is my favourite ... if only the sound wasn't so poor, which is kinda weird for BBC/Proms broadcasts, and that background noise must be the hall air conditioning. Anyway it's interesting to watch the concert as it's a bit eerie with the empty hall, but it does add an appropriate ambience to the occasion. It is also interesting that I have never seen Rattle as being an RVW conductor!

As to the Boult, ICA released this very recently and it can be found on Spotify.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Becca said:


> Sir Antonio Pappano, music director of Covent Garden for the last 20 years. He takes over from Rattle at the London Symphony in a year or two. Despite the name he is English.


P.S. There is a very recent and highly rated recording of the RVW 4th & 6th with Pappano and the LSO on the LSOLive label.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Pappano is an interesting guy - Superb opera conductor - and I found his series on "Classical Voices" to be excellent - Interesting insights - Entertaining analysis of what to listen for - Highly recommended.

I don't want to clutter up the thread with the videos but this is the link which leads to them -



https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Antonio+Pappano%27s+Classical+Voices+1


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> Sir Antonio Pappano, music director of Covent Garden for the last 20 years. He takes over from Rattle at the London Symphony in a year or two. Despite the name he is English.


that would figure. I haven't been to Covent Garden for about 30 years and my interest in non-Slavonic opera is fairly minimal. London is just a big provincial town these days (as Rattle would no doubt tell you......)


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Malx said:


> Add my thanks to the crew, Becca - based on your recommendation I'm away to dig out my copy of Handley to see how he deals with the symphony.


His is a good one, too, IMO.


----------



## Dirge (Apr 10, 2012)

:: Serge Koussevitzky/BSO [1947 radio broadcast/Guild]
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imyMYZkDG2Q&list=PLrnsjMis4n-MGVOo0H5jNcqcS3Jn6zEpG 

I’ve been too lazy to take part in the blind comparison (aside from conducting a few spot checks here and there), but I’m unashamed enough to saunter in after the fact and put in a word for my favorite recording of the Fifth …

Koussevitzky’s big, undaunted, scarcely pastoral approach to the Fifth tends to underscore the Modern in Vaughan Williams’s Romantic-yet-Modern sensibility—he brings a Samuel Barber-like quality to many of the themes and episodes, especially in the Romanza—yet it all sounds somehow natural if not necessarily all that idiomatic or “British.” The scherzo begins rather gruffly and heavily here, but it insidiously morphs into something resembling Boris Blacher’s _Concertante Musik_ (1937) by movement’s end. The BSO plays with sovereign command and eloquence throughout, soothing the savage beast in some sections (the final minutes of the Romanza have never sounded so ethereally beautiful) while evoking the power of the sea in others (certain passages of the final movement have a _Tintagel_-like Baxian quality about them), with teeming molecular energy and inner intensity underlying the beautiful sheen of the strings.

The 1947 broadcast sound is no great shakes, with a woolly, generalized bottom end and not much top end, but the middle end is good enough to carry the sonic load and put the performance across. Solos are variously spotlit as they often are in old radio broadcasts, but they often come across like concertino members in a concerto grosso and add to the atmosphere rather than detract from it; besides, the solos are so well and so characterfully played that it’s seems churlish to complain about them being a bit too prominent. Not a performance/recording for everyone, then … indeed, I seem to be its only known fan.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Becca said:


> As to the Boult, ICA released this very recently and it can be found on Spotify.


And now on YTB



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHfUho3iVRigqmR1967Ow9g


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Becca said:


> FWIW, the Rattle/LSO is my favourite ... if only the sound wasn't so poor, which is kinda weird for BBC/Proms broadcasts, and that background noise must be the hall air conditioning. Anyway it's interesting to watch the concert as it's a bit eerie with the empty hall, but it does add an appropriate ambience to the occasion. It is also interesting that I have never seen Rattle as being an RVW conductor!


Ah but ... I assume your hearing of it was not blind? Perhaps you would have preferred one of the others if you had been able to blind test them?


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Enthusiast said:


> Ah but ... I assume your hearing of it was not blind? Perhaps you would have preferred one of the others if you had been able to blind test them?


Maybe ... but having seen it during the height of the pandemic shutdown with the acoustic of a very large and very empty hall, it made rather an emotional hit.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Forster said:


> I watched the Rattle at the time, though I don't recall much about it...the 5th is fine enough, but it hasn't made the same impression as the 3rd, 6th and 7th.
> 
> Thanks again for arranging.


Having said that it didn't make the same impression as others of his symphonies, it has now. I can't stop listening to it!


----------

