# Beethoven’s Pastoral, an appreciation



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Sir George Grove in his 1890s book titled _Beethoven and his Nine Symphonies_ closes his lengthy discussion of the Pastoral with this paragraph:

"In taking leave of the Symphony it is impossible not to feel deep gratitude to this great composer for the complete and unalloyed pleasure which he here puts within our reach. Gratitude, and also astonishment. In the great works of Beethoven, what vast qualities are combined! What boldness, what breadth, what beauty! what a cheerful, genial, _beneﬁcent _view over the whole realm of Nature and man. And then what extraordinary detail! and so exquisitely managed, that with all its minuteness, the general effect is never sacriﬁced or impaired! The amount of contrivance and minute calculation of effect in this _Andante _(to speak of one movement only) is all but inconceivable, and yet the ear is never oppressed, or made aware of the subtle touches by which what might have been blemishes, had the one necessary hairbreadth been passed, become conspicuous beauties. However abstruse or characteristic the mood of Beethoven, the expression of his mind is never dry or repulsive. To hear one of his great compositions is like contemplating, not a work of art, or man's device, but a mountain, or forest, or other immense product of Nature -- at once so complex and so simple; the whole so great and overpowering; the parts so minute, so lovely, and so consistent; and the effect so inspiring, so beneﬁcial, and so elevating."

Was Grove exaggerating? Do we admire this music today, well over a century later, as he did in his day? What do you think?


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Personal favorite by Fritz Reiner. I believe this symphony is essentially about Beethoven being at peace with himself, nature, and life, about the acceptance of his deafness and goodness knows what else, at least a spiritual respite from the turbulence he's previously experienced. It's a tremendous work. Just wonderful.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> Sir George Grove in his 1890s book titled _Beethoven and his Nine Symphonies_ closes his lengthy discussion of the Pastoral with this paragraph:
> 
> "In taking leave of the Symphony it is impossible not to feel deep gratitude to this great composer for the complete and unalloyed pleasure which he here puts within our reach. Gratitude, and also astonishment. In the great works of Beethoven, what vast qualities are combined! What boldness, what breadth, what beauty! what a cheerful, genial, _beneﬁcent _view over the whole realm of Nature and man. And then what extraordinary detail! and so exquisitely managed, that with all its minuteness, the general effect is never sacriﬁced or impaired! The amount of contrivance and minute calculation of effect in this _Andante _(to speak of one movement only) is all but inconceivable, and yet the ear is never oppressed, or made aware of the subtle touches by which what might have been blemishes, had the one necessary hairbreadth been passed, become conspicuous beauties. However abstruse or characteristic the mood of Beethoven, the expression of his mind is never dry or repulsive. To hear one of his great compositions is like contemplating, not a work of art, or man's device, but a mountain, or forest, or other immense product of Nature -- at once so complex and so simple; the whole so great and overpowering; the parts so minute, so lovely, and so consistent; and the effect so inspiring, so beneﬁcial, and so elevating."
> 
> Was Grove exaggerating? Do we admire this music today, well over a century later, as he did in his day? What do you think?


A magnificent work (I believe it was premiered along with the 5th) and it displays the other side of Beethoven that we don't usually hear. The picture painted is, for me, extremely vivid.

I believe Debussy criticized it's repetitions.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

janxharris said:


> I believe Debussy criticized it's repetitions.


The repetitions have certainly been noted. But somebody (Grove?) pointed out that a forest is basically a repetition of trees, each adorned with a repetition of leaves. And a pleasant meadow is covered by a repetition of blades of grass, all pretty much the same. And yet we tire of neither.


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> The repetitions have certainly been noted. But somebody (Grove?) pointed out that a forest is basically a repetition of trees, each adorned with a repetition of leaves. And a pleasant meadow is covered by a repetition of blades of grass, all pretty much the same. And yet we tire of neither.


There are pieces where repetition does become an issue but not this work...imho.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

It's my personal favourite in Beethoven's complete oeuvre (by far), and one of my favourite pieces from any composer.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Larkenfield said:


> Personal favorite by Fritz Reiner. I believe this symphony is essentially about Beethoven being at peace with himself, nature, and life, about the acceptance of his deafness and goodness knows what else, at least a spiritual respite from the turbulence he's previously experienced. It's a tremendous work. Just wonderful.


So the previous symphony was basically "Fate knocking at the door." 
And this one is about Beethoven letting Fate in. That makes sense.

I remember Charles Hazlewood saying 



 that Beethoven liked to compose in pairs of works, like in the case of 5th and 6th symphonies.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Whenever the "Pastoral" comes up in conversation, people's faces light up. The piece is recognized as unique in Beethoven and unique in music, and it inspires love and gratitude for life by seeming to express those very emotions. To realize that it was composed at the very same time Beethoven was working on his Fifth Symphony is to be disabused of any clicheed conception of Beethoven's personal or creative character. It's one of a fairly select group of musical works that make us wonder how it could have been imagined and written at all. If I had to take just one symphony to that desert island, this would be it.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ...To realize that it was composed at the very same time Beethoven was working on his Fifth Symphony is to be disabused of any clicheed conception of Beethoven's personal or creative character.


Both the 5th and the 6th were premiered at that miserably cold and long December 1808 concert. The numbers were reversed, the 5th being called the 6th and vice versa. ​


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

If someone claims (as you occasionally hear on TC) that Beethoven only composed simple motifs rather than fully fleshed out melodies, the simple reply should be: the Pastoral.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Each of Beethoven's symphonies is totally unique. None of them is remotely similar to any of the others - well, perhaps the first two are not so different from each other - or like any of his other pieces. Come to think of it, much the same is true of his concertos and quartets and piano sonatas. Each work is distinctively _his _and yet has a totally unique character! We all love the Pastoral: it is such a glowing, open-air, _relaxed _sort of piece. There have been quite a number of stunningly good recordings of it, including Montreux, Harnoncourt and Bohm. But there have also been quite a few recordings that seem not to work - for me at any rate - because they try to be too "Beethovian". The great Beethoven conductors don't fall into this trap but a few who came close did. Angry and driven interpretations work for quite a lot of Beethoven - although they are never the last word IMO - but the Pastoral is not angry or driven, not even the storm.


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

"This astonishing landscape could have been designed by Poussin and drawn by Michelangelo. The author of Fidelio and of the Eroica symphony sets out to depict the tranquillity of the countryside and the shepherds' gentle way of life. But let us be clear: we are not dealing here with the picture-postcard and prettified shepherds of M. de Florian, still less those of M. Lebrun, who wrote the Rossignol [The Nightingale], or those of J.-J. Rousseau, the composer of the Devin du Village [The Village Soothsayer]. We are dealing here with real nature. The title given by the composer to his first movement is Gentle feelings stirred by the sight of a beautiful landscape. The shepherds begin to move about nonchalantly in the fields; their pipes can be heard from a distance and close-by. Exquisite sounds caress you like the scented morning breeze. A flight or rather swarms of twittering birds pass overhead, and the atmosphere occasionally feels laden with mists. Heavy clouds come to hide the sun, then suddenly they scatter and let floods of dazzling light fall straight down on the fields and the woods. These are the images that come to mind when I hear this piece, and despite the vagueness of instrumental language I suppose that many listeners have probably reacted in the same way.

Further on there is a Scene by the brook. Contemplation… The composer probably created this wonderful adagio lying on his back in the grass, his eyes turned to heaven, his ear listening to the wind, fascinated by countless reflections of sound and light, observing and listening at once to the white ripples of the river as they break gently on the stones of the bank. This is delightful. There are some who vehemently criticise Beethoven for wanting to reproduce at the end of the adagio the song of three birds, at first in succession and then together. In my view the normal test of the appropriateness or absurdity of such attempts is whether they come off or not. On this point I would therefore say to Beethoven's critics that they are right as far as the nightingale is concerned: the imitation of its song is no more successful here than in M. Lebrun's well-known flute solo, for the very simple reason that since the nightingale only emits indistinct sounds of indeterminate pitch it cannot be imitated by instruments with a fixed and precise pitch. But it seems to me that the case is different with the quail and the cuckoo, whose cry involves either one or two real notes of fixed pitch, and can therefore be fully imitated in a realistic way.

Now if the composer is criticised for introducing a childishly literal imitation of bird-song in a scene where all the quiet voices of heaven, earth and water must naturally find their place, I would say in reply that the same objection could be made when in the storm he also imitates faithfully the gusts of wind, the flashes of lightning and the bellowing of animals. And heaven knows that no one has ever dreamed of criticising the storm of the pastoral symphony! But let us proceed. The poet now brings us in the midst of a Joyful gathering of peasants. The dancing and laughter are restrained at first; the oboe plays a cheerful refrain accompanied by a bassoon that can only manage to produce two notes. Beethoven's intention was probably to suggest in this way an old German peasant, sitting on a cask with a decrepit old instrument, from which all he can draw are the two principal notes of the key of F, the dominant and the tonic. Every time the oboe plays its naïve and jolly tune like a girl in her Sunday clothes, the old bassoon blows his two notes. When the melody modulates to a different key the bassoon falls silent and quietly counts his rests, until the original key returns and he is able to interject again unruffled his F, C and F. This burlesque effect is wonderfully apt but the public seems to miss it almost completely. The dance gets more animated and becomes wild and noisy. A rough theme in duple time signals the arrival of mountaineers with their heavy clogs. The first section in triple time is repeated, but even more animated. The dancers mingle excitedly, the women's hair flies loose over their shoulders, the mountaineers add their noise and intoxication, there is clapping, shouting and running, and the scene goes wild and furious… Then suddenly a distant clap of thunder strikes terror in the midst of this rustic ball and scatters the dancers.

Storm, lightning. I despair of being able to convey an idea of this prodigious piece. It has to be heard to understand how realistic and sublime imitative music can become in the hands of someone like Beethoven. Listen to the gusts of wind gorged with rain, the dull growl of the basses, the shrill hissing of piccolos announcing the fearful storm that is about the break out. The hurricane approaches and increases in intensity. A huge chromatic scale, starting in the upper instruments, plunges to the depths of the orchestra, picks up the basses on the way, drags them upwards, like a surging whirlwind that sweeps everything in its way. The trombones then burst out, the thunder of the timpani intensifies in violence; this is no longer rain and wind but a terrifying cataclysm, a universal deluge and the end of the world. In truth the piece induces dizziness, and there are many who on hearing this storm are not sure whether the emotion they experience is one of pleasure or of pain. The symphony concludes with the Thanksgiving of the peasants after the return of fine weather. Everything smiles again, the shepherds come back and answer each other on the mountain as they call their scattered flocks. The sky is clear, the torrents gradually dry out, calm returns and with it the rustic songs with their gentle tones. They soothe the mind, shattered as it was by the awesome splendour of the preceding tableau.

Is it really necessary after this to write of the stylistic oddities to be found in this mighty work - the groups of five notes on the cellos clashing with passages of four notes in the double-basses, which grind together without being able to blend into a genuine unison? Must one mention the horn call which plays an arpeggio on the chord of C while the strings hold that of F?… In truth I cannot. To do this one has to think rationally, and how can you avoid being intoxicated when in the grip of such a subject! Far from it - if only one could sleep and go on sleeping for months on end, and inhabit in one's dreams the unknown sphere which for a moment genius has allowed us to glimpse. After such a concert should one have the misfortune to have to see some comic opera, attend a soirée of fashionable songs and a flute concerto, one would have a look of stupefaction. Should someone ask you:

- How do you find this Italian duet?
You would reply in all seriousness
- Quite beautiful.
- And these variations for clarinet?
- Superb.
- And the finale of the new opera?
- Admirable.

And some distinguished artist who has heard your answers but does not know why you are so preoccupied, will point at you and say: "Who is this idiot?"

How the ancient poems, for all their beauty and the admiration they evoke, pale before this marvel of modern music! Theocritus and Virgil were great landscape artists; lines like the following are music to the ears:

«Te quoque, magna Pales, et te, memorande, canemus
Pastor ab Amphryso; vos Sylvae amnesque Lycaei.»

especially when they are not recited by barbarians like us French, who pronounce Latin in such a way that it could be mistaken for a peasant dialect…

But Beethoven's poem!… these long periods so full of colour!… these speaking images!… these scents!… this light!… this eloquent silence!… these vast horizons!… these magic hideouts in the woods!… these golden harvests!… these pink clouds like wandering specks in the sky!… this vast plain dozing under the midday sun!… Man is absent!… nature alone reveals herself glorying in her splendour… And the deep rest of everything that lives! And the wonderful life of everything that rests!… The little stream that pursues its murmuring course towards the river!… the river, the source of all water, which descends towards the ocean in majestic silence!… Then man appears, the man from the countryside, robust and full of religious feeling… his joyful play interrupted by the storm… his fears… his hymn of thanksgiving…

Hide your faces, poor great poets of antiquity, poor immortals. Your conventional language, so pure and harmonious, cannot compete with the art of sound. You are vanquished, no doubt with glory, but vanquished all the same! You have not experienced what nowadays we call melody, harmony, the combination of different timbres, instrumental colour, modulations, the skilful clashes of conflicting sounds which fight and then embrace, the sounds that surprise the ear, the strange tones which stir the innermost recesses of the soul. The stammering of the childish art which you referred to as music could not give you any idea of this. For cultured minds you alone were the great melodists, the masters of harmony, rhythm, and expression. But these words had a very different meaning in your vocabulary from what we give them now. The art of sound in its true meaning, independent of anything else, was only born yesterday. It has scarcely reached manhood, and is barely twenty years old. It is beautiful and all-powerful: it is the Pythian Apollo of modern times. We owe to it a world of emotion and feeling which was closed to you. Yes, great venerated poets, you are vanquished: Inclyti sed victi."

*Beethoven's Pastoral according to Hector Berlioz.*


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

janxharris said:


> I believe Debussy criticized it's repetitions.


Of course, the 21st Century listener now hears it as proto-minimalism. Beethoven's vision was more far-reaching than even Debussy could see.


----------



## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

For obvious reasons, the Pastorale used to be a bit of a problem for those who were committed to the image of Beethoven as a composer of "absolute" music, the one who proved that instrumental music's lack of words made it a more, not less, powerful means of expression. So there used to be an amusing tradition of music critics who took it upon themselves to absolve the symphony of its program. Tovey is the exemplar here: he insisted that if Beethoven had never thought up a program for the work, "not a bar of the 'Pastoral' Symphony would be otherwise." With admirable determination, Tovey said the passages in the symphony that are most obviously programmatic, like the birdcalls in the second movement, were in fact "master-stroke of pure musical form."


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I used to listen to this one by Gerard Schwarz and the NY Chamber orchestra. I'll revisit it when I get my Bohm set on CD. For some reason the first movement of no.6 plays in my head more than any other Beethoven symphony.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

KenOC said:


> Sir George Grove in his 1890s book titled _Beethoven and his Nine Symphonies_ closes his lengthy discussion of the Pastoral with this paragraph:
> 
> "In taking leave of the Symphony it is impossible not to feel deep gratitude to this great composer for the complete and unalloyed pleasure which he here puts within our reach. Gratitude, and also astonishment. In the great works of Beethoven, what vast qualities are combined! What boldness, what breadth, what beauty! what a cheerful, genial, _beneﬁcent _view over the whole realm of Nature and man. And then what extraordinary detail! and so exquisitely managed, that with all its minuteness, the general effect is never sacriﬁced or impaired! The amount of contrivance and minute calculation of effect in this _Andante _(to speak of one movement only) is all but inconceivable, and yet the ear is never oppressed, or made aware of the subtle touches by which what might have been blemishes, had the one necessary hairbreadth been passed, become conspicuous beauties. However abstruse or characteristic the mood of Beethoven, the expression of his mind is never dry or repulsive. To hear one of his great compositions is like contemplating, not a work of art, or man's device, but a mountain, or forest, or other immense product of Nature -- at once so complex and so simple; the whole so great and overpowering; the parts so minute, so lovely, and so consistent; and the effect so inspiring, so beneﬁcial, and so elevating."
> 
> Was Grove exaggerating? Do we admire this music today, well over a century later, as he did in his day? What do you think?


That tinted passage suggests to me the very essence of all great art. Aristotle noted as early as his _Poetics_ that art is imitation of nature. The greatest art seems to confuse the lines between Nature (the "real") and the Imitation (an "illusion of the real"). Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven. (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)

The greatest art seems to have always been here, in the manner of rocks, mountains, the trees, the sky …. I mean, really! Was the Sixth Symphony _composed_, or has it always "just been here", like an eternal configuration of the universe?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> That tinted passage suggests to me the very essence of all great art. Aristotle noted as early as his _Poetics_ that art is imitation of nature. The greatest art seems to confuse the lines between Nature (the "real") and the Imitation (an "illusion of the real"). *Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven. (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)*
> 
> The greatest art seems to have always been here, in the manner of rocks, mountains, the trees, the sky …. I mean, really! Was the Sixth Symphony _composed_, or has it always "just been here", like an eternal configuration of the universe?


I don't think a Mozart fan would object, or a Haydn fan either, despite _The Creation_ and _The Seasons._ Wagner and Sibelius fans might have a word or two to say, but Beethoven's nature poetry preceded the _Ring_'s rivers, storms and forest murmurs by half a century, and Sibelius's nature-pervaded visions by a century and more.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I came to the Pastoral before I discovered any Mozart - it was one piece that really got me tuned in to classical music early on.

Beautiful melodies - easy to listen to. My favourite Beethoven symphony.


----------



## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

My favourite symphony ever written.


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> That tinted passage suggests to me the very essence of all great art. Aristotle noted as early as his _Poetics_ that art is imitation of nature. The greatest art seems to confuse the lines between Nature (the "real") and the Imitation (an "illusion of the real"). *Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven*. (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)
> 
> The greatest art seems to have always been here, in the manner of rocks, mountains, the trees, the sky …. I mean, really! Was the Sixth Symphony _composed_, or has it always "just been here", like an eternal configuration of the universe?


To me, the Pastoral is all about Beethoven and his feelings about nature, not a mere depiction. The composer himself said about the symphony that it's "more the expression of feeling than painting". It's only true precedent in terms of programatic idea, fame and musicality is Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_ in my opinion, although I think that Beethoven is much more profound.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

An interesting connection: Around 1785, Justin Heinrich Knecht wrote and published his own "pastoral symphony," titled _Le portrait musical de la nature, ou Grande sinfonie (Pastoralsymphonie)_. It had a program very similar to Beethoven's own Pastoral. It was advertised in the same periodical advertising the young Beethoven's own Dressler Variations, and on the facing page, so Beethoven could hardly have missed it.

The idea of this sort of symphony surely triggered Beethoven's own thinking. The symphony can be heard on YouTube. Clearly, Beethoven borrowed nothing musical from this work.






Here's Knecht's program, in French (sorry).


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Considering it was written at the same time as the 5th you couldn't get 2 more diverse symphonies.Strangely the 6th is nowhere near my favourite Beethoven symphony but i do prefer it to the 5th. Yes it os s great symphony but I just prefer 4, 7, 8 & 9. I still wonder how much Beethoven was influenced thematically (not musically) by Knecht's 1784 Grande sinfonie entitled “Portrait musical de la nature (Pastoralsymphonie). It too had five movements:

I. A beautiful country where the sun is shining, brooks traverse the vale, the birds twitter, a waterfall tumbles from the mountain, the shepherd plays his pipe, the lambs gambol around; and there the sweet voice of the shepherdess is heard.
II. Suddenly the sky is overcast, an oppressive closeness pervades the air, black clouds pile up, the wind rises, thunder is heard from afar, and the storm approaches.
III. The tempest bursts in all its fury. The wind howls and the rain beats down. The trees groan and the waters of the streams rush furiously.
IV. The storm gradually subsides, the clouds disperse, and the sky becomes clear.
V. Nature raises its joyful voice to heaven in song of gratitude to the Creator. 

Sound fsmiliar? Beethoven certainly knew of this symphony (Knecht used ghe same publisher and this work was advertised on the back of some Beethoven Piano Sonatas).


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

KenOC said:


> An interesting connection: Around 1785, Justin Heinrich Knecht wrote and published his own "pastoral symphony," titled _Le portrait musical de la nature, ou Grande sinfonie (Pastoralsymphonie)_. It had a program very similar to Beethoven's own Pastoral. It was advertised in the same periodical advertising the young Beethoven's own Dressler Variations, and on the facing page, so Beethoven could hardly have missed it.
> 
> The idea of this sort of symphony surely triggered Beethoven's own thinking. The symphony can be heard on YouTube. Clearly, Beethoven borrowed nothing musical from this work.
> 
> ...


Lol, great minds think alike, KenOC! :devil:


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Merl said:


> I. A beautiful country where the sun is shining, brooks traverse the vale, the birds twitter, a waterfall tumbles from the mountain, the shepherd plays his pipe, the lambs gambol around; and there the sweet voice of the shepherdess is heard.
> II. Suddenly the sky is overcast, an oppressive closeness pervades the air, black clouds pile up, the wind rises, thunder is heard from afar, and the storm approaches.
> III. The tempest bursts in all its fury. The wind howls and the rain beats down. The trees groan and the waters of the streams rush furiously.
> IV. The storm gradually subsides, the clouds disperse, and the sky becomes clear.
> V. Nature raises its joyful voice to heaven in song of gratitude to the Creator.


 Many thanks for the translation of Knecht's program. Now I don't have to go and learn French!


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Just listened to a good part of the Knecht work above and it reminded me how great the Beethoven Pastoral is.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

DaveM said:


> Just listened to a good part of the Knecht work above and it reminded me how great the Beethoven Pastoral is.


Aye, Knecht's Pastoral is pretty rubbish, though.:lol:


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Eschbeg said:


> For obvious reasons, the Pastorale used to be a bit of a problem *for those who were committed to the image of Beethoven as a composer of "absolute" music,* the one who proved that instrumental music's lack of words made it a more, not less, powerful means of expression. So there used to be an amusing tradition of music critics who took it upon themselves to absolve the symphony of its program. Tovey is the exemplar here: he insisted that if Beethoven had never thought up a program for the work, "not a bar of the 'Pastoral' Symphony would be otherwise." With admirable determination, Tovey said the passages in the symphony that are most obviously programmatic, like the birdcalls in the second movement, were in fact "master-stroke of pure musical form."




Thankfully Beethoven's genius extended far beyond their tiny comprehensions!


----------



## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

SONNET CLV said:


> That tinted passage suggests to me the very essence of all great art. Aristotle noted as early as his _Poetics_ that art is imitation of nature. The greatest art seems to confuse the lines between Nature (the "real") and the Imitation (an "illusion of the real"). *Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven.* (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)
> 
> The greatest art seems to have always been here, in the manner of rocks, mountains, the trees, the sky …. I mean, really! Was the Sixth Symphony _composed_, or has it always "just been here", like an eternal configuration of the universe?


Sibelius took it a stage further I'd hazard.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

*Among Beethoven's Sources of Inspiration for his Pastoral Symphony*

One of his favorite books was a work by the Lutheran pastor Christoph Christian Sturm (1740-1786) called _Reflections on the Works of God and His Providence Throughout All Nature_, an example of the early-Romantic love of the natural world.

The first edition in German was originally published in the 1780s and I believe it's easy to see why it was of such deep and profound influence on Beethoven, as it had _daily meditations on Nature for an entire year_ and could be read again each year. It was found amongst Beethoven's possessions in his extensive library and highly annotated.

I believe Sturm was far more influential on him as a source of inspiration for his 6th than Knecht's rather quaint symphony, though it could be argued that there may be some similarities.

Sturm's meditative and inspirational book has been translated into English, still read after more than 200 years, and one can see for oneself:

CC Strum: 
https://archive.org/stream/reflectionsonw00stur#page/n5
Kindle Edition: 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DYCSB99/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

SONNET CLV said:


> *Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven.* (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)
> 
> The greatest art seems to have always been here, in the manner of rocks, mountains, the trees, the sky …. I mean, really! Was the Sixth Symphony _composed_, or has it always "just been here", like an eternal configuration of the universe?





Woodduck said:


> I don't think a Mozart fan would object, or a Haydn fan either, despite _The Creation_ and _The Seasons._ Wagner and Sibelius fans might have a word or two to say, but Beethoven's nature poetry preceded the _Ring_'s rivers, storms and forest murmurs by half a century, and Sibelius's nature-pervaded visions by a century and more.





Allerius said:


> To me, the Pastoral is all about Beethoven and his feelings about nature, not a mere depiction. The composer himself said about the symphony that it's "more the expression of feeling than painting". It's only true precedent in terms of programatic idea, fame and musicality is Vivaldi's _Four Seasons_ in my opinion, although I think that Beethoven is much more profound.


Of course, I'm not speaking of the Imitation of Nature as an "imitation of the outside world of earth and sky and sea" but rather that the Imitation of Nature is, in the Aristotlean manner, a means of art becoming an objectified part of reality and thus joining in on the bandwagon of creation. The best of art mimics the realness, the _natural_ness of the world.

Mozart's music for the most part doesn't attempt to "imitate" natural sounds in the way that maybe Vivaldi's _Seasons _concerti or Beethoven's _Pastoral_ or Wagner's storms might do. But it remains hard for me to imagine a world, a universe, in which that Mozart music doesn't exist. Every time I hear the _Eine Klein Nachtmusik_ or the 40th Symphony I have the impression that it simply exists and always did.

Aristotle was much closer to Sophocles _Oedipus_ than he was to Mozart's or Beethoven's music, but the philosopher/art critic assigns the Sophocles tragedy a place in his "imitation of nature" realm. It isn't that the _Oedipus_ play is nothing less than fantastical fiction. It is fantasy made flesh. But that flesh is a _real_ flesh that has the capacity to teach us (sometimes) more about reality than the actual reality around us. That is the work of great art. It distills large chunks of reality into fragments of great power, sort of like a black hole can encompass a galaxy and be all of that energy in a miniscule singularity. Each work of art is a singularity, and therein lies its power.

So, to my way of thinking, art remains an imitation of nature because it joins in with, communes with the reality of existence and becomes part of the eternal always-was-always-is-always-will-be. If that seems an illusion, perhaps all of reality is such an illusion. My understanding of cosmology and quantum mechanics confuses me more about reality than enlightens. In my understanding, art works fit right in perfectly.

By the way, I always hear the Beethoven _Pastoral _as a companion piece to the mighty Fifth Symphony. They seem both studies of Beethoven's concern about impending deafness: the Fifth an internal, psychological study of the composer's struggle, the Sixth a more external examination, a look at what "sounds" the composer will so miss as he recedes into silence. It remains interesting that both end optimistic, one with a great C Major finale of triumph, the other with a dance. Beethoven remained faithful to the end that the natural world was a good one, and these symphonies, and the composer's other works as well, inform us that he was happy to exist, was well satisfied with life, and that it was good.

Indeed, isn't it?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> An interesting connection: Around 1785, Justin Heinrich Knecht wrote and published his own "pastoral symphony," titled _Le portrait musical de la nature, ou Grande sinfonie (Pastoralsymphonie)_. It had a program very similar to Beethoven's own Pastoral. It was advertised in the same periodical advertising the young Beethoven's own Dressler Variations, and on the facing page, so Beethoven could hardly have missed it.
> 
> The idea of this sort of symphony surely triggered Beethoven's own thinking. The symphony can be heard on YouTube. Clearly, Beethoven borrowed nothing musical from this work.


This is really fun to hear. Actually there are some fleeting resemblances. The most specific is the trills in the violins, which Beethoven adopts for his "scene by the brook." When I first heard the "Pastoral," I thought these trills were intended to represent the twittering of birds, and I see that Knecht, in his symphony, intends exactly that.


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

KenOC said:


> An interesting connection: Around 1785, Justin Heinrich Knecht wrote and published his own "pastoral symphony," titled _Le portrait musical de la nature, ou Grande sinfonie (Pastoralsymphonie)_. It had a program very similar to Beethoven's own Pastoral. It was advertised in the same periodical advertising the young Beethoven's own Dressler Variations, and on the facing page, so Beethoven could hardly have missed it.
> 
> The idea of this sort of symphony surely triggered Beethoven's own thinking. The symphony can be heard on YouTube. Clearly, Beethoven borrowed nothing musical from this work.
> 
> ...


Very interesting in my opinion. I didn't know this work nor it's composer. It sounds like what could have been a Pastoral symphony by early Mozart to me. I like it.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I find it ok, don't get the hype surrounding it. Strauss _Alpine Symphony_ or any number of Sibelius works strike me as hitting much closer to the mark in terms of being highly depictive of nature.

This work just sounds more like tightly structured gaiety without ever using enough dissonance to provide real depth, or contrast. It creates in my mind more of an idealized nature scene than a realistic one.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I doubt Beethoven ever heard Knecht's symphony or even saw the score. At the time it was advertised, Beethoven was about 15 and certainly didn't have the money to buy the printed music, especially an orchestral score with many parts. He might have heard it since it _could _have been performed in Bonn, but there's no indication that this took place. By the time Beethoven got to Vienna, I'm sure Knecht's work had retreated to the shadows (if it ever escaped them in the first place).


----------



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The Pastoral symphony is my favorite symphony.
And his Pastoral piano sonata is my favorite piano sonata.
Cool huh?


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

tdc said:


> I find it ok, don't get the hype surrounding it. Strauss _Alpine Symphony_ or any number of Sibelius works strike me as hitting much closer to the mark in terms of being highly depictive of nature.
> 
> This work just sounds more like tightly structured gaiety without ever using enough dissonance to provide real depth, or contrast. It creates in my mind more of an idealized nature scene than a realistic one.


Berlioz certainly found Beethoven's storm realistic, as do I, and I find the sense of clearing skies after the storm extraordinarily vivid and touching, and achieved with an economy that any later Romantic would envy. But Beethoven said that he wanted to evoke feelings about nature more than realistic pictures, so it would seem that you're looking for something never intended to be there. The late Romantic view of nature is different from Beethoven's humanistic perspective; he is depicting man enjoying nature's beauty and beneficence, and his approach is an expression of the pastoral tradition, focusing on the "beautiful" more than the "sublime." Wagner's _Flying Dutchman_ and _Ring,_ Strauss's _Alpine Symphony,_ and Sibelius's _Tapiola_ are not pastoral poems.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ...But Beethoven said that he wanted to evoke feelings about nature more than realistic pictures, so it would seem that you're looking for something never intended to be there...


The Pastoral was still being performed from manuscript in 1809. It seems the etched and printed score became available in 1810. The AMZ Leipzig printed an updated review on the occasion, which discusses, in one place, the relationship between the symphony and tone-painting:



> The work contains, in symphonic form, a painting of country life. "A painting? Is music supposed to paint? Have we not long since moved beyond the times in which musical painting was considered of value?" Indeed, it is quite clear to us by now that the depiction of external subjects by music is not in good taste and that one should not think very highly of using such means to create an effect. However, these contentions have nothing to do with the work at hand, which is not a depiction of subjects of the country-side but rather a depiction of the feelings that we have when confronting those subjects. Nobody who has thought about this form of art and about the nature of the feelings that are supposed to be expressed in this music will claim that such a "painting" is in bad taste.


My own view, given the many literal touches in the work, is that tone-painting is exactly what Beethoven is doing at several places in the work. He (and others) are really protesting too much! :lol:


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

KenOC said:


> I doubt Beethoven ever heard Knecht's symphony or even saw the score. At the time it was advertised, Beethoven was about 15 and certainly didn't have the money to buy the printed music, especially an orchestral score with many parts. He might have heard it since it _could _have been performed in Bonn, but there's no indication that this took place. By the time Beethoven got to Vienna, I'm sure Knecht's work had retreated to the shadows (if it ever escaped them in the first place).


I was going to mention the same thing: how does anyone know that he heard Knecht's symphony? It's being assumed unless there's some indication in Beethoven's life. Anything. He had his own connection with Nature and used to take daily walks and referenced meditative books related to God found in Nature that were highly annotated by himself and actually found in his library. That is definitely known... Beethoven was also known for collecting scores, such as the complete works of Handel, and I've read no indications that he had Knecht's score, though it's certainly possible he may have heard or known of it... _May_ have heard or known of it. Knecht's symphony was written 23 years earlier than the 6th and indeed was much admired and said to anticipate the programme of Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony. But to 'anticipate' is not necessarily the same as 'influencing'.


----------



## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Beethoven is one of my favourite composers but I haven't been a big fan of the Pastorale to this point, although I haven't listened to it for awhile. The enthusiasm displayed in this thread has made me want to give it another go.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Well, I can't say what anyone else is hearing, but the first movement of Knecht's symphony reminds me of Beethoven's, especially the "scene by the brook," in four respects: a certain wind-string color in the orchestration, the constant undulating or rustling figuration in the strings, the restfully hypnotic harmony alternating tonic and dominant or tonic and subdominant, and the trills in the violins. These could be coincidences, or maybe they aren't. Why wouldn't Beethoven have known of this work? If there is no other symphony like it, it may well have made enough of an impression to hang on at the fringes of the repertoire and remain known at least to musicians. I can easily imagine Beethoven having a look at it and saying, "Great idea. Now I will show how it ought to be done."


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Berlioz certainly found Beethoven's storm realistic, as do I, and I find the sense of clearing skies after the storm extraordinarily vivid and touching, and achieved with an economy that any later Romantic would envy. But Beethoven said that he wanted to evoke feelings about nature more than realistic pictures, so it would seem that you're looking for something never intended to be there. The late Romantic view of nature is different from Beethoven's humanistic perspective; he is depicting man enjoying nature's beauty and beneficence, and his approach is an expression of the pastoral tradition, focusing on the "beautiful" more than the "sublime." Wagner's _Flying Dutchman_ and _Ring,_ Strauss's _Alpine Symphony,_ and Sibelius's _Tapiola_ are not pastoral poems.


That is a good point, and one it seems many over look when discussing this work. On reflection I'm not even sure idealized was quite the word I was looking for in this case. Perhaps just _unrealistic_. For me light that isn't brought out and made more radiant by some shade, doesn't really reflect the ideal. It is just kind of boring.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Lisztian said:


> Beethoven is one of my favourite composers but I haven't been a big fan of the Pastorale to this point, although I haven't listened to it for awhile. The enthusiasm displayed in this thread has made me want to give it another go.


Let me bet 1USD that your favorite Beethovens Symphony is the 7th.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> Whenever the "Pastoral" comes up in conversation, people's faces light up. The piece is recognized as unique in Beethoven and unique in music, and it inspires love and gratitude for life by seeming to express those very emotions. To realize that it was composed at the very same time Beethoven was working on his Fifth Symphony is to be disabused of any clicheed conception of Beethoven's personal or creative character. It's one of a fairly select group of musical works that make us wonder how it could have been imagined and written at all. If I had to take just one symphony to that desert island, this would be it.


Beautiful written.

(knowing Beethoven character, I could say that maybe he composed the 6th the same way Franck had composed his Symphonic Variations for piano and orchestra.)


----------



## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

tdc said:


> That is a good point, and one it seems many over look when discussing this work. On reflection I'm not even sure idealized was quite the word I was looking for in this case. Perhaps just _unrealistic_. For me light that isn't brought out and made more radiant by some shade, doesn't really reflect the ideal. *It is just kind of boring.*


Yes, some people do claim that they would find heaven kind of boring. No accounting for taste, I suppose.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Gallus said:


> Yes, some people do claim that they would find heaven kind of boring. No accounting for taste, I suppose.


Look at those trees -- easy to tell they're CGI. And that sheep -- it's always the same one. Beethoven just trots it by every two minutes. And the shepherdess -- she'd be a lot more convincing if she weren't ignoring her flock, hunched over her smartphone like that! And my new shoes --- I stepped in a cow pie over there the size of Delaware. When does the bus come to take me back to the city? Do I need exact change?


----------



## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

Dimace said:


> Let me bet 1USD that your favorite Beethovens Symphony is the 7th.


Not going to take the bet, but you are right :lol:. Also, my favourite works by Beethoven overall are his Piano Sonatas Op. 109 and 110.

To this point I've explored works usually only based on one recording as I try to familiarise myself with a wide repertoire. In the Pastorale's case it was Karajan with the Berlin Phil. Does anyone have any recommendations for good recordings?


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Best Pastoral? Proper people agree on Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra. 

Gemütlichkeit!


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Lisztian said:


> Not going to take the bet, but you are right :lol:. Also, my favourite works by Beethoven overall are his Piano Sonatas Op. 109 and 110.
> 
> To this point I've explored works usually only based on one recording as I try to familiarise myself with a wide repertoire. In the Pastorale's case it was Karajan with the Berlin Phil. Does anyone have any recommendations for good recordings?


We are both slaves under the same Master. I know exactly what you like, because I like the same... It is our curse and salvation to make circles around the Master trying to find which composers the music looks like his music to accept him. Before 10 years, my illness was greater and deeper. Now I'm more open to other music, but still a slave of him and his children (Bortkiewicz, Godowksy, Thalberg, etc)


----------



## Colin M (May 31, 2018)

Art Rock said:


> It's my personal favourite in Beethoven's complete oeuvre (by far), and one of my favourite pieces from any composer.


I am in complete agreement. Let the world know we can describe our impressions about our experiences in music to be followed soon enough in painting and sculpture. Just magnificent. One of my desert island must haves. Along with Sibelius Fourth. After all, desert islands are really hot and they need cooling every once in a while.


----------



## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Merl said:


> Aye, Knecht's Pastoral is pretty rubbish, though.:lol:


Talking about the inspiration for his Sonata for two Violins, Op. 56, a dismal composition by a Frenchman, Prokofiev said:

"Sometimes hearing bad compositions gives birth to good ideas. One begins to think: that's not how it should be done, what's needed is this or that."

Perhaps Beethoven found in the Knecht a similarly good idea poorly executed. I imagine Beethoven seeing the blurb for the Knecht, realizing the potential of the idea and then being crestfallen when he actually heard it.


----------



## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

Lisztian said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations for good recordings?


Bruno Walter:










AND/OR

Karl Böhm:


----------



## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

KenOC said:


> Best Pastoral? Proper people agree on Walter, Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
> 
> Gemütlichkeit!


Thanks! Will listen to it sometime soon.


----------



## Lisztian (Oct 10, 2011)

WildThing said:


> Bruno Walter:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, I'll give both a try.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Tried pretty much all versions of the Pastorale I could get to hear years ago, and Walter is unbeatable.


First time I heard the Pastorale, I thought it was just background sort of music. :lol:


----------



## Gallus (Feb 8, 2018)

Bohm's is my favourite. For once his languid tempos suite a piece absolutely perfectly, and the strings of the VPO are just gorgeous.


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Ok. To the question. The BEST 6th is the one with *Michael Gielen* and the SWR Sinfonieorchester von Baden-Baden und Freiburg. And this is logic. Michael and Daniel are the two guys nowadays, (without if and maybe), are the absolute experts in Beethoven. You must know, that other conductors and pianists, they make carrier with Beethoven, are doing masterclasses with them and they are trying to imitate (or to copy) them. So, we are going to Gielen and our search is OVER!


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Lots of recommendations of good Paatorals in the link below.

Beethoven's Pastorale


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

I won't claim it's the best, but I really like Celibidache's 1993 recording with the Münchner Philharmoniker. The approach he took later in his career of performing everything as slowly as possible drives me insane with some works by other composers but I think it works perfectly with the 6th, particularly the first movement.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

chill782002 said:


> I won't claim it's the best, but I really like Celibidache's 1993 recording with the Münchner Philharmoniker. The approach he took later in his career of performing everything as slowly as possible drives me insane with some works by other composers but I think it works perfectly with the 6th, particularly the first movement.


No thanks. This performance strikes me as another perversion by an eccentric, overrated conductor. Celibidache obviously doesn't hike in the outdoors or dance! There's no kinetic energy here; it's more like a slow stroll through a gallery of landscape paintings than a real outing in the fresh air.

Some recent performances strike me as going to the opposite extreme. Beethoven's metronome markings sometimes seem excessively fast and even contradictory to his verbal indications, and though we don't have to follow his markings precisely they ought to tell us something.


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> No thanks. This performance strikes me as another perversion by an eccentric, overrated conductor. Celibidache obviously doesn't hike in the outdoors or dance! There's no kinetic energy here; it's more like a slow stroll through a gallery of landscape paintings than a real outing in the fresh air.
> 
> Some recent performances strike me as going to the opposite extreme. Beethoven's metronome markings sometimes seem excessively fast and even contradictory to his verbal indications, and though we don't have to follow his markings precisely they ought to tell us something.


I agree that, overall, the slow tempo doesn't serve the Pastoral well, but there are parts where there are some beautiful moments, particularly in the final movement which is sometimes played too fast in other performances. Also, I don't think Celi is overrated. Like other conductors who try to 'rework' warhorses, sometimes it works, sometimes not, but at least it's not same-old, same-old. His Bruckner is wonderful.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DaveM said:


> I agree that, overall, the slow tempo doesn't serve the Pastoral well, but there are parts where there are some beautiful moments, particularly in the final movement which is sometimes played too fast in other performances. Also, I don't think Celi is overrated. Like other conductors who try to 'rework' warhorses, sometimes it works, sometimes not, but at least it's not same-old, same-old. His Bruckner is wonderful.


Yah, there's always his Bruckner, if you like slow Bruckner... I once compared Celi's elephantine Bruckner 9th with Furtwangler's intense, dramatic performance and decided I didn't. I realize that for some a Bruckner symphony is a mystical rite that can't go on too long, but I think he's a flawed composer whose unwieldy structures can benefit from some energy and drive. Somehow Furtwangler achieves both passion and profundity.

I'd say using 18th century instruments and paying attention to his tempo markings gives Beethoven all the "reworking" he needs. There's a good range of possible interpretations for any piece of music, and if a conductor has to go to Celi's lengths to keep the "Pastoral" from feeling same old same old to him he should consider not performing it. Of course there are rare examples of interpretive perversity yielding brilliant results, but I don't think this is one of them.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> Yah, there's always his Bruckner, if you like slow Bruckner... I once compared Celi's elephantine Bruckner 9th with Furtwangler's intense, dramatic performance and decided I didn't. I realize that for some a Bruckner symphony is a mystical rite that can't go on too long, but I think he's a flawed composer whose unwieldy structures can benefit from some energy and drive. Somehow Furtwangler achieves both passion and profundity.


I agree, Furtwangler's Bruckner 9th deserves all the praise it receives, whereas Celibidache's 9th is far too slow. That was one of the prime examples I had in mind when I mentioned that some of his performances of other composers drove me to distraction. Almost as bad an offender as Klemperer's infamous 1968 Mahler 7th with the New Philharmonia Orchestra. Far, far too slow, resulting in a loss of the emotive power of the work.

However, this is all a matter of personal taste and the view expressed above is just that. DaveM likes Celibidache's Bruckner and that's great, while I really like his Beethoven 6th.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SONNET CLV said:


> Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven. (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)


I don't think anybody listens to Mozart to conjure up programmatic images or objects, his music invokes feelings of nostalgia for the Classical Age, the ideals of the Enlightenment etc.





anyway, I'm surprised to see so many of you consider the 6th as one of Beethoven's greatest.
The Beethoven symphonies that made the greatest impression on me are the 3rd and the 7th


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't think anybody listens to Mozart to conjure up programmatic images or objects, his music invokes feelings of nostalgia for the Classical Age, the ideals of the Enlightenment etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Comparing Beethoven's symphonies for "greatness" is a tough assignment, isn't it? I know I'm not good enough for it. I think most people are merely expressing personal preferences. The "Pastoral" is unique and lovable, besides being impossible to fault as a composition, but who would dare say that it's "greater" than the 3rd, the 5th, the 7th or the 9th? What are the criteria? The need to assign degrees of "greatness" gets on my nerves.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Do we need a poll on favorite Beethoven's 6th?


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

chill782002 said:


>


Having never heard Celi's performance before, I was stunned by it. What some people call _slow_ tempos, he referred to in an interview as _broad_ tempos. Big difference and I think they are. So I'm rarely bored by them or exasperated. By playing them at the tempos that he does, one can _savor_ everything, absolutely everything, down to the last note and rest. I truly believe that his connection with music was on an entirely higher dimension than the often ordinary way that music is normally played and heard. When it works, it can be stunning, and I thought this was an amazing performance that goes right to the top of my list of 6ths. I know that's a minority viewpoint, but I appreciate that he played music without sounding like he had a fixed goal in mind; he played music in a timeless way that was not about rushing to any goal beyond the moment that he was in, and one can savor the experience like a gourmet meal... Pianist Claudio Arrau also had a similar feel for broad tempos that one could lose oneself in.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> Having never heard Celi's performance before, I was stunned by it. What some people call _slow_ tempos, he referred to in an interview as _broad_ tempos. Big difference and I think they are. So I'm rarely bored by them or exasperated. By playing them at the tempos that he does, one can _savor_ everything, absolutely everything, down to the last note and rest. I truly believe that his connection with music was on an entirely higher dimension than the often ordinary way that music is normally played and heard. When it works, it can be stunning, and I thought this was an amazing performance that goes right to the top of my list of 6ths. I know that's a minority viewpoint, but I appreciate that he played music without sounding like he had a fixed goal in mind; he played music in a timeless way that was not about rushing to any goal beyond the moment that he was in, and one can savor the experience like a gourmet meal... Pianist Claudio Arrau also had a similar feel for broad tempos that one could lose oneself in.


I'm so glad you feel the same way about this recording as I do! I think it's great.


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

_ I'm surprised to see so many of you consider the 6th as one of Beethoven's greatest._

Most polls don't indicate people find the Pastoral the "greatest" of Beethoven's or anyone else's symphonies. But one thing about it cannot be argued: it is a representation of the human experience, something a little rare for the composer.

Excepting the first symphony most conductors play Beethoven's odd-numbered symphonies to transcend the human experience -- to bring out the heroic, larger than life quality, sometimes even its pomposity. I've heard conductors like Bernstein and Bohm do this with the odd-numbered symphonies, Nos. 2 and 4, as well. While Toscanini famously said about the Eroica, "Some people see Hitler, some people see Napoleon, I see allegro con brio," most conductors see, feel and try to represent something larger than life in it and the other powerhouse Beethoven scores.

It can't be done with No. 6 for a simple reason: Beethoven wrote a program of peasants frolicking, picnicking, enduring and surviving a thunderstorm, and generally having a wonderful day.

I often think of the Beethoven 9th as his representation of superman, the human experience where all is well, all men are equal, and there are no tyrants, a world we don't know yet. But the 6th is more about everyday existence and everyday people than anything else he wrote. I think that is perhaps the source of its connection to people that love it so. That and it just happens to be a remarkable masterpiece.


----------



## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

post removed, but not deleted because there is no delete feature. I posted it elsewhere that it might get attention and not disturb the flow of this thread.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

hammeredklavier said:


> I don't think anybody listens to Mozart to conjure up programmatic images or objects, his music invokes feelings of nostalgia for the Classical Age, the ideals of the Enlightenment etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Debussy considered it a bit of a lull between #5 and #7. It's quite indulgent. But it can be a good thing depending on your mood.


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

SONNET CLV said:


> That tinted passage suggests to me the very essence of all great art. Aristotle noted as early as his _Poetics_ that art is imitation of nature. The greatest art seems to confuse the lines between Nature (the "real") and the Imitation (an "illusion of the real"). * Nobody did the imitation of Nature better in music than did Beethoven. * (Please, Mozart fans, don't fight me on this one!)
> 
> The greatest art seems to have always been here, in the manner of rocks, mountains, the trees, the sky …. I mean, really! Was the Sixth Symphony _composed_, or has it always "just been here", like an eternal configuration of the universe?


R. Strauss was more realistic depicting nature (sheep bleating, storms).


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

larold said:


> Most polls don't indicate people find the Pastoral the "greatest" of Beethoven's or anyone else's symphonies. But one thing about it cannot be argued: it is a representation of the human experience, something a little rare for the composer.
> 
> Excepting the first symphony most conductors play Beethoven's odd-numbered symphonies to transcend the human experience -- to bring out the heroic, larger than life quality, sometimes even its pomposity. I've heard conductors like Bernstein and Bohm do this with the odd-numbered symphonies, Nos. 2 and 4, as well. While Toscanini famously said about the Eroica, "Some people see Hitler, some people see Napoleon, I see allegro con brio," most conductors see, feel and try to represent something larger than life in it and the other powerhouse Beethoven scores.
> 
> ...


*"[The Pastoral Symphony] is a representation of the human experience, something a little rare for the composer."*

This is a very odd thing to say about Beethoven, whose music again and again broke new ground in seeking to express aspects of the human experience. I should think it more accurate to say that the only thing rare for the composer was to represent the human love of nature, and we can be grateful that he took "time out" to do so. Otherwise I can think of no composer more deeply concerned with the nature of human experience. Some have regarded him as the most universal of composers, and while I'm disinclined to engage in contests, I can't think of a better candidate for that accolade.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

There's something more going on with the 6th than just the literal portrayal of Nature like some other more "modern" composer might have done. I would suggest that it's the benevolent sense of _goodwill_ that runs through Beethoven's great symphony. But his depiction of a storm can certainly be a metaphor for the storms of life that one goes through and survives. So there's something more going on with the Symphony than just the depiction of Nature, though Beethoven loved Nature and took frequent walks in it. I would suggest that those who don't think it's as great as his other symphonies pick on it because it might not have the same complexity or turbulence, and I believe that such works of overall well-being and goodwill are not valued as much. Some may relate more to complexity, explosiveness, tension and disquiet, railing against Nature and Fate instead of being at peace with it. It might seem more "interesting".


----------



## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

As I write this, there is a Christmas-based commercial with a Santa and sleigh for the USPS (U.S. postal service) on T.V. with the opening of the Pastoral playing in the background.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Larkenfield said:


> There's something more going on with the 6th than just the literal portrayal of Nature like some other more "modern" composer might have done. I would suggest that it's the benevolent sense of _goodwill_ that runs through Beethoven's great symphony. But his depiction of a storm can certainly be a metaphor for the storms of life that one goes through and survives. So there's something more going on with the Symphony than just the depiction of Nature, though Beethoven loved Nature and took frequent walks in it. I would suggest that those who don't think it's as great as his other symphonies pick at it because it might not have the same complexity or turbulence, and I believe that such works of overall well-being and goodwill are not valued as much. Some may relate more to complexity, explosiveness, tension and disquiet, railing against Nature and Fate instead of being at peace with both. It might seem more 'interesting'.


I agree completely with this. For the Romantic sensibility, nature was quite typically felt as a metaphor for human life and human qualities.There's even a term for it: the "pathetic fallacy." I dislike the derisive quality of that term, as I think that experiencing things as metaphoric, as representing each other, is not only respectable and pleasurable but essential to a rich spiritual life. Whether nature represents Man or God - or both together in a kind of pantheism - it was deeply meaningful to Beethoven, and he communicates that to us in a way that seems to me as profound as anything else in his music.


----------



## SalieriIsInnocent (Feb 28, 2008)

I think at any given point in my life, I have a different Beethoven symphony that I raise up as my favorite, and more often than not, that symphony is the sixth. It takes me on a journey, as all Beethoven symphonies do. It's a great bridge from what came before and what was to come in music. It will always have a special place in my heart. Doesn't matter the performance, as I have several.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Larkenfield said:


> There's something more going on with the 6th than just the literal portrayal of Nature like some other more "modern" composer might have done. I would suggest that it's the benevolent sense of _goodwill_ that runs through Beethoven's great symphony...


I think this is what Grove had in mind when he used the word "beneficent" -- see the first post. 

He even put the word in italics!


----------

