# If history repeats itself, then...



## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Let's say that early jazz and country (00s through 20s) was like the Renaissance, Big Band music was like the Baroque, 50's Pop & Rock was like the Roccocco, the 60s were like the Classical Era, the Seventies like the Romantics, & etc...

Modify that if you like...

But who do you think were the Monteverdis, Bachs, Mozarts, Beethovens, etc... of the 20th century?


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Bach: a lot of Hindemith. Some Stravinsky. Some Shostakovich.
Mozart: Some Prokofiev. A lot of Neo-Classical Stravinsky. A lot of Neo-Classical composers such as Irving Fine, Arthur Berger, Harold Shapero.
Beethoven: Shostakovich. Certain pieces here and there, like Ligeti's _Six Bagatelles_ for wind quintet.
Mahler: Penderecki's symphonies (2-8) pay homage to Mahler.

Schoenberg has sometimes been described as Brahms with "wrong notes". Sometimes it's like Mendelssohn at times as well.

Most everyone was like themselves. And even composers as "radical" as Boulez would sometimes pay homage to Baroque, impressionism techniques etc. every once in awhile.

If you're just looking for composers who are in the same "league" so-to-speak, those mentioned above would fit the bill (except Fine, Berger, Shapero). Bartok too.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm sure Tiny Tim fits in there somewhere.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm sure Tiny Tim fits in there somewhere.
> 
> View attachment 162718


Maybe the contemporary equivalent of the 17th century PDQ Bach?


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

One could make an argument for Charles Ives being the 20th cent. Schubert, I guess. He wrote a ton of songs and they are all quite good, some remarkable and considered some of the best of the century. Very important collection.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

The era of "crowd-pleasers" repeating itself... Wouldn't that be terrible... 


vtpoet said:


> he was compelled to write for the market


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

If history repeats itself, then... it probably won't sound like this:


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

Ethereality said:


> If history repeats itself, then... it probably won't sound like this:


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

I reject the premise that History repeats itself. The 20th Century was uniquely terrible in many ways, including music. The mass slaughters and the social dislocations played a role. Totalitarianism imprisoning and murdering Composers. Then the simultaneous rise of mass media to distribute popular music with a takeover of serious music by elites more interested in theory than accessibility.
Show me a comparable century in the history of music


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

I seemed to have misunderstood this thread, deleted.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Ariasexta said:


> This comparison is groundless, baroque is a result of religious humanism not atheism, 20th century is the degenerate "Relapssaince" by atheism of human civilization rather than anything.


"A giraffe walks into a bar and says..."

And you'd be the guy to point out that actually giraffe's couldn't possibly walk into a bar because [insert Powerpoint presentation on average giraffe physiognomy] and couldn't possibly ask for anything because [insert giraffe vocalizations and neck physiology] and because [insert giraffe's dietary preferences and ecological range].

And, of course, like your comment above, you would be absolutely right in every respect.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Torkelburger said:


> Bach: a lot of Hindemith. Some Stravinsky. Some Shostakovich.
> Mozart: Some Prokofiev. A lot of Neo-Classical Stravinsky. A lot of Neo-Classical composers such as Irving Fine, Arthur Berger, Harold Shapero.
> Beethoven: Shostakovich. Certain pieces here and there, like Ligeti's _Six Bagatelles_ for wind quintet.
> Mahler: Penderecki's symphonies (2-8) pay homage to Mahler.
> ...


That was a great answer, but I actually I was thinking along the lines of comparisons with popular music (not contemporary classical composers) but possibly the former interests you more, so fair response.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

vtpoet said:


> Let's say that early jazz and country (00s through 20s) was like the Renaissance, Big Band music was like the Baroque, 50's Pop & Rock was like the Roccocco, the 60s were like the Classical Era, the Seventies like the Romantics, & etc...
> 
> Modify that if you like...
> 
> But who do you think were the Monteverdis, Bachs, Mozarts, Beethovens, etc... of the 20th century?


Your decade list in the first paragraph contains only non-Classical music and I don't see a connection with your question which seems to be asking for Classical comparisons. But the easy answer would be those major composers in each stylistic decade of the 20th century would compare with the major composers of previous eras.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

SanAntone said:


> Your decade list in the first paragraph contains only non-Classical music and I don't see a connection with your question which seems to be asking for Classical comparisons. But the easy answer would be those major composers in each stylistic decade of the 20th century would compare with the major composers of previous eras.


Yes, that's the easy answer.

Bach ---> [?] Not sure who might compare.
CPE Bach ---> Ornette Coleman?
JC Bach ---> Elvis
Mozart ---> Beatles
J Haydn ---> The Rolling Stones
M Haydn ---> The Monkees (HK sharpens his knife...)
Beethoven ---> Pink Floyd?
[?] ---> The Doors
Hummel ---> U2?

Etc...

The thrust of the question is just to get a sense for how classical music listeners might think of 20th Century performers and bands and their place in popular music history as it might compare to classical music. Not meant to start any fights-only to amuse...


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

> The thrust of the question is just to get a sense for how classical music listeners might think of 20th Century popular individuals and bands and their place in popular music history as it might compare to classical music. Not meant to start any fights-only to amuse...


As long as one is truly interested in classical and baroque music, why should I take offence at the mistakes. Though the OP is not making much sense. The game itself does not mean evil. I should have waited to see how long this thread can go on before replying. But take this way, if any baroque composer born into 20th century and become a rockster, who he would be?

JS Bach-John Lennon.

Heinrich Schutz-David Bowie.

Orlando di Lasso-Elton John.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Ariasexta said:


> JS Bach-John Lennon.
> 
> Heinrich Schutz-David Bowie.
> 
> Orlando di Lasso-Elton John.


Thanks for that. You don't appear to understand what I' m asking for but that's probably my fault. And probably best to let this thread go rather than get into an extended explanation that will undoubtedly result in the usual misunderstandings and arguments. Not worth it given the triviality of the question.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

vtpoet said:


> Yes, that's the easy answer.
> 
> Bach ---> [?] Not sure who might compare.
> CPE Bach ---> Ornette Coleman?
> ...


I get it now! I like the idea. It was my fault for not reading it properly and jumping to assumptions about what you meant. I'll keep playing...since Baroque corresponds to the jazz age as per your suggestion, I would put JS Bach--->Duke Ellington.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Whilst not sticking exactly to your guide a few came to mind.

Schubert = Nick Drake - both great Lieder/Songwriters who died too young.

Varese = Frank Zappa - Zappa cited Varese as an influence so why not.

Mahler = Yes - long, complex works.

Berlioz = Jim Morrison - both seemed to live in another world at times and were controversial.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Manxfeeder said:


> I'm sure Tiny Tim fits in there somewhere.


Things are sure "looking up" here at Talk Classical, what with Tiny Tim references on the Classical Music Discussion forum. Makes me want to strum some Mozart on my ukulele.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Torkelburger said:


> I get it now! I like the idea. It was my fault for not reading it properly and jumping to assumptions about what you meant. I'll keep playing...since Baroque corresponds to the jazz age as per your suggestion, I would put JS Bach--->Duke Ellington.


Oh wow! I could totally see that.


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Malx said:


> Whilst not sticking exactly to your guide a few came to mind.
> 
> Schubert = Nick Drake - both great Lieder/Songwriters who died too young.
> 
> ...


For Mahler, how about "The Who"?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

vtpoet said:


> For Mahler, how about "The Who"?


Can't remember Mahler doing two operas


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## vtpoet (Jan 17, 2019)

Malx said:


> Can't remember Mahler doing two operas


Maybe "The Who" stand comparison with Wagner?

And then, once we get to the eighties, seems like we're into the comparable era of Liszt. And who would I compare Liszt to? Who was the showman of the eighties? Madonna?


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

vtpoet said:


> Maybe "The Who" stand comparison with Wagner?
> 
> And then, once we get to the eighties, seems like we're into the comparable era of Liszt. And who would I compare Liszt to? Who was the showman of the eighties? Madonna?


Yngwie Malmsteen comes to mind. Not just in the glam showmanship, but musically, totally overboard and over-the-top with his dexterity and complexity. Still cheesy, though, IMO. Hopefully my comparison is not taken as an insult to Liszt!

I think another big showman of the 80's has to be David Lee Roth, although not much musical talent.


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