# Three Favorite ultra-modernist works



## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

Share your 3 favorite ultra-modernist pieces! If one of the pieces you like has already been taken, select a new one so that we can get a nice list of interesting works. This page has a good rundown of the ultra-modernists if you're unfamiliar!

I can start:

Ruth crawford's - String Quartet [1931], absolutely beautiful: 




Henry Cowell's The Tiger, filled with fascinating harmonies: 




Vigilante, a bizarre and wonderful dance by John Becker:


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Opisthokont said:


> ...we can get a nice list of interesting works...


YouTube videos generally do not last forever. If you want to use this thread as a list for future reference, people should include both composer and work title in their posts.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

There are so many I do not know where to begin.

I will give you two by John Corigliano:

_Clarinet Concerto

Symphony Number Three for Band_


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## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

Art Rock said:


> YouTube videos generally do not last forever. If you want to use this thread as a list for future reference, people should include both composer and work title in their posts.


That's a good point, I edited my post! I find youtube a useful place to find music but I've learned to use youtube-dl fastidiously because so many things disappear into the void.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

A few ultra-modernist pieces I like - I don't think I'd say these are my definitive favourite pieces. I'd have a really hard time finding three pieces I'd call favourites. However, these are pieces I like, which I'd call very modernist:

*Ondřej Adámek (*1979)*
_Where are you?_, for mezzo-soprano and orchestra (2020)






*Helmut Lachenmann (*1935)*
_Guero_ for piano (1969)






*Carl Ruggles (*1876)*
_Toys_ for Soprano and Piano (1919)


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## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

Let me clarify here - certainly the definition of ultramodernism is vague, but I'm specifically referring to the cohort of composers surrounding henry cowell. It's not the same as _very modern_. Ruggles is I would consider an ultramodern but I wouldn't consider lachemann or adamek to be an ultramodern, although they certainly are very modern.

The reason I think it's nice to group some of their works together in a thread is so that we can see and hear stylistic similarities. Because I'm slightly lazy I'll cite wikipedia:



> Cowell was the central figure in a circle of avant-garde composers that included his good friends Carl Ruggles and Dane Rudhyar, as well as Leo Ornstein, John Becker, Colin McPhee, French expatriate Edgard Varèse, and Ruth Crawford, whom he convinced Charles Seeger to take on as a student (Crawford and Seeger would eventually marry). Cowell and his circle were sometimes referred to as "ultra-modernists," a label whose definition is flexible and origin unclear (it has also been applied to a few composers outside the immediate circle, such as George Antheil, and to some of its disciples, such as Nancarrow); Virgil Thomson styled them the "rhythmic research fellows."


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

Oh, apologies then. I do find Nancarrow's player piano work to be quite interesting, so I'll pick those then – and maybe Seeger's quartets too. Those are fascinating as well.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Listening now to Cowell’s piano music for the first time, he clearly wrote a lot of it, some of it (I’m pleased to say) is experimental and possibly interesting, I’d appreciate some guidance, suggestions as to what the key pieces are. 

Anyway thanks for leading me to this side of American music, which is all new to me.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

arpeggio said:


> There are so many I do not know where to begin.
> 
> I will give you two by John Corigliano:
> 
> ...


Yes!! Corigliano's Sym #3 is a fine piece!!


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## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

Opisthokont said:


> Share your 3 favorite ultra-modernist pieces! If one of the pieces you like has already been taken, select a new one so that we can get a nice list of interesting works. This page has a good rundown of the ultra-modernists if you're unfamiliar!
> 
> I can start:
> 
> ...


Picking three favorites from the composers discussed in your link: Varese, Ameriques; Villa-Lobos, Uirapuru; Cage, String Quartet in Four Parts. But I like your choices, too.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

"The Damask Drum" by Paavo Heininen 
"The Cry of Anubis" by Harrison Birtwistle
"Tympan" by Geert van Keulen


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Ferneyhough - L'Chute de Icare
Ferneyhough - Terrain
Ferneyhough - Les Froissements des Ailes de Gabriel


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## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

Mandryka said:


> Listening now to Cowell's piano music for the first time, he clearly wrote a lot of it, some of it (I'm pleased to say) is experimental and possibly interesting, I'd appreciate some guidance, suggestions as to what the key pieces are.
> 
> Anyway thanks for leading me to this side of American music, which is all new to me.


Cowell is brilliant - arguably the most important US-american composer: taught Gershwin, Harrison and Cage - popularized Charles Ives and started several ethnomucological projects to analyze, study and archive music from outside the western classical tradition.

His most famous work is _The Tides of Manaunaun_ which brought him fame.

Another work in a similar vein is _Three Irish Legends_

_The Snows of Fujiyama_ is very serene but also intense.

_Quartet Euphometric_ is also quite brilliant, incredibly polyphonic and rhytmically advanced.


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## FrankinUsa (Aug 3, 2021)

I’m having trouble with the “ultra-modernist.” What does that mean. Can you define by years or whatever. Some still Schoenberg to be ultra modernist. Yet he live in the early part of the 21st century.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

FrankinUsa said:


> I'm having trouble with the "ultra-modernist." What does that mean. Can you define by years or whatever. Some still Schoenberg to be ultra modernist. Yet he live in the early part of the 21st century.


Just do what I did & list your favorite Ferneyhough pieces, cant go wrong there


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

FrankinUsa said:


> I'm having trouble with the "ultra-modernist." What does that mean. Can you define by years or whatever. Some still Schoenberg to be ultra modernist. Yet he live in the early part of the 21st century.


I do not know.

There are some members who consider Schoenberg to be an "ultra-modernist".

There are some members who think that if they do not like something it is "ultra-modernist".

I know what I think is "ultra-modern". I am not a musicologist so my definition would be anecdotal at best.

Your guess is as good as mine.


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## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

I thought my definition of ultra-modernism was pretty clear? The specific movement of american composers who worked with and around henry cowell. When I talk about ultra-modernism I don't mean a specific sort of music as much as I mean a specific school, similar to how when I say "second viennesse school" I don't mean serialism in general. I also linked the wikipedia page that defines it in my first post?

Like I quoted before, the members of that school were Carl Ruggles and Dane Rudhyar, as well as Leo Ornstein, John Becker, Colin McPhee, French expatriate Edgard Varèse, and Ruth Crawford - along with George Antheil and Nancarrow as affiliated but not a direct part of it. Schoenberg is not ultramodern for the same reason henry cowell is not part of the SVS.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Opisthokont said:


> I thought my definition of ultra-modernism was pretty clear? The specific movement of american composers who worked with and around henry cowell. When I talk about ultra-modernism I don't mean a specific sort of music as much as I mean a specific school, similar to how when I say "second viennesse school" I don't mean serialism in general. I also linked the wikipedia page that defines it in my first post?
> 
> Like I quoted before, the members of that school were Carl Ruggles and Dane Rudhyar, as well as Leo Ornstein, John Becker, Colin McPhee, French expatriate Edgard Varèse, and Ruth Crawford - along with George Antheil and Nancarrow as affiliated but not a direct part of it. Schoenberg is not ultramodern for the same reason henry cowell is not part of the SVS.


One of the problems with discussions like this is that whenever anyone tries to come up with a definition of ultra-modern, atonal or whatever there are at least twenty sourpusses who will disagree with it.


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## composingmusic (Dec 16, 2021)

arpeggio said:


> One of the problems with discussions like this is that whenever anyone tries to come up with a definition of ultra-modern, atonal or whatever there are at least twenty sourpusses who will disagree with it.


That does seem to be the case, but some really interesting discussions do also arise among those who are interested in work beyond the common practice period.

What's also interesting is to see the effect this group of composers has had on subsequent generations, such as Babbitt, Berger, or Thompson, as well as their students in turn.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Opisthokont said:


> Like I quoted before, the members of that school were* Carl Ruggles* and Dane Rudhyar, as well as Leo Ornstein, John Becker, Colin McPhee, French expatriate Edgard Varèse, and Ruth Crawford - along with *George Antheil *and Nancarrow as affiliated but not a direct part of it. Schoenberg is not ultramodern for the same reason henry cowell is not part of the SVS.


Going by those guidelines:

Ruggles - Sun Treader
Antheil - Sym #4
Antheil - Capital of the World


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## Opisthokont (Dec 16, 2021)

arpeggio said:


> One of the problems with discussions like this is that whenever anyone tries to come up with a definition of ultra-modern, atonal or whatever there are at least twenty sourpusses who will disagree with it.


Sure I would agree if I said modernist or high modernist? But ultra-modernism is a specific school, right? It's like saying you disagree with the defintion of the second viennesse school? You can if you want, but the memebers of the second viennesse school are a matter of historical record, in the same way members of the ultramodernist school are? Unlike SVS the ultramodernists did not have a specific compositional atyle but are mostly just a group of composers that all talked a lot to each other and had the same teachers.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

Opisthokont said:


> But ultra-modernism is a specific school, right?


Prior to this thread, I was unaware of the label 'ultra-modern' applying to a specific (& American) school.
Perhaps this is why some TC members, myself included, think of ultra-modern in terms of an artistic movement rather than a limited group of composers who were mentored by Henry Cowell.

Some of the works by Lou Harrison or Cowell (which utilize non-Western elements) don't even sound modern - let alone ultra-modern. [i.e. Cowell's 'Persian Set', Harrison's gamelan music, etc.]


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I never listen to these composers.

The closest I get are *John Cage* and *Charles Ives*, both of which are among my favorites, although not in my top ten.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Varese is the only one in that category I listen to.


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