# Frank Zappa



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

This thread is purely for Frank Zappa as a classical composer.


----------



## mensch

Zappa produced a lot of his most interesting works as a composer of art music. The pieces with large spoken word sections (like "Food Gathering In Post-Industrial America" from "The Yellow Shark") are not among my favourites. I think he's at his best in smaller scale pieces like "Get ******", "Outrage at Valdez" (both from The Yellow Shark) and "Amnerika" (from "Civilization Phaze III"). I really like the fragile harmonies and rhythmic variations of those typical Zappa pieces.


----------



## starthrower

There are the so called pure orchestral/chamber music recordings including The Yellow Shark, and London Symphony, but Zappa not being a purist included a lot of fine orchestral writing on many more eclectic recordings.

I recommend Orchestral Favorites for starters. There are some electric instruments, and FZ plays and electric guitar solo on one track, but overall it's a satisfying collection of material.

There's also The Perfect Stranger conducted by Pierre Boulez. It features three classical pieces, and the album is filled out with some synclavier synthesizer pieces which may or may not appeal to some listeners?

One of his final albums is the very ambitious Civilization Phase Three. This features some very sophisticated compositions play by the Synclavier, and the Ensemble Modern who are featured on the Yellow Shark. Just beware that the music is very dark, in case that's not your bag.

There are some very interesting albums from the early days, and I strongly recommend Uncle Meat, Lumpy Gravy, and 200 Motels, if you don't mind the eclectic approach. Zappa was very good at arranging these types of recordings, so it never sounds half baked. I think it's brilliant stuff, and is should appeal to those interested in the avant garde and musique conctrete. If you like rock and roll and you have a warped sense of humor, that helps too!


----------



## BurningDesire

Frank Zappa was a brilliant composer. He didn't dumb his music down when he was composing for his "rock/jazz" groups, and he didn't excise his quirkiness or his sense of humor when writing for orchestra. Even when he's writing RnB tunes, I think of him as a composer in the extremely broad western classical tradition. His ideas expand upon the ideas of other great composers like Bartok, Webern, Stravinsky, and Varese. Frank is the reason I am a composer.


----------



## starthrower

How about some music?
















This is a fantastic documentary on modern composition, and includes some footage of FZ's visit
with Xenakis and Boulez.


----------



## BurningDesire

Frank Zappa: Great composer, or greatest composer?


----------



## ComposerOfAvantGarde

BurningDesire said:


> Frank Zappa: Great composer, or greatest composer?


Not great*est*, but certainly great.


----------



## starthrower

FZ was one of the only musicians from the rock world who could conceive, compose, and orchestrate modern music at the same high level as the great composers. For this reason he was respected by Pierre Boulez, Zubin Mehta, the London Symphony, and others from the "serious" music world.

His situation was highly unusual, because he was self taught. And he was already doing very advanced stuff in his early 20s. See the Mount St. Mary's Concert 1963 on YouTube. This is a very interesting piece of musical history including a Q&A session after the chamber music concert of his original music.


----------



## Crudblud

I don't think there's really a distinction to be made between his rock and pop music and his orchestral and chamber pieces. No matter what he was doing, he was doing it with attention to detail far beyond the average rocker, and many of his pop songs feature a depth and complexity in the mix that is rare even with the far more advanced technology available today.

I might add, even on primitive synclavier works like Jazz From Hell, he is such a fine composer that the music is still very convincing. It only got better with time, Civilization Phaze III being one of his greatest works.


----------



## BurningDesire

I just wish Frank's scores were published so students could buy them and study them.


----------



## Crudblud

It's a shame that the ZFT (or rather, Gail) is so up its own **** about that stuff, and you can only *rent* copies from them, for quite a hefty price I believe. Back when I was a regular on the official Zappa forum I went back and forth on this with many other members, and I still can't wait for the day when Zappa's body of work becomes public domain. Gail's draconian nonsense - including suing tribute bands, attempting to litigate against fan based projects like Zappanale, and banning people from the Barfko Swill online store for questioning her actions on the forum - needs to stop.


----------



## starthrower

Crudblud said:


> I don't think there's really a distinction to be made between his rock and pop music and his orchestral and chamber pieces.


And of course several of his pieces were arranged and performed by both rock and chamber/orchestral music ensembles.


----------



## Crudblud

Yes, even a baroque chamber ensemble!


----------



## millionrainbows




----------



## starthrower

Well I was speaking to the recordings FZ did himself (some of which were never commercially released like Sinister Footwear orchestral) but the Finnish album is pretty nice.


----------



## Crudblud

Yes, it's a real shame about Sinister Footwear, especially in that there was never a video of the fully staged production mounted at the A Zappa Affair concert.


----------



## BurningDesire

I've only heard Sinister Footwear II, is that like a second movement to it? Or is it a revision? Or a theme and variations/remake like "Son of Mr. Green Genes" was to "Mr. Green Genes"?


----------



## Crudblud

Sinister Footwear II (from Them or Us) begins with the 2nd movement realised in an almost self-parodic style, much like The Evil Prince on one of the YCDTOSA discs. Then comes the solo, which I don't believe was part of the original score, although it is likely that there is a fully notated transcription of it by Steve Vai somewhere.

As far as I can tell, not that it is well documented anywhere, SF is comprised -much like Civilization Phaze III's Beat the Reaper- mostly of short movements. That said, it is much more programmatic than Beat the Reaper* and, according to a quote of Zappa from the KPFA coverage of the aforementioned A Zappa Affair concert, is "a ballet about a guy who designs the ugliest shoe in the world and then all the things that happen before you get to wear it. And the shoe has been designed and I just saw like about … twenty pairs of it, sitting around this place, it's really great."

*which features a bunch of people doing various things like "THE EASY GLIDER" and consuming mass amounts of diet pills in order to gain immortality.


----------



## crmoorhead

I used to be into Frank Zappa (though not seriously, given his large body of work) before my personal paradigm shift to classical. I think I'll go listen to a couple of the albums again in a new light. At the time I wasn't really into instrumental music, so it will be interesting to reassess it now. I'll start with Uncle Meat, based on the recommendations above. I have never really considered any of the late Zappa stuff, but I've always been intrigued by him.


----------



## Crudblud

Uncle Meat is a great choice, my personal favourite album of all time by anyone anywhere. Good choices from there are Weasels Ripped My Flesh, The Grand Wazoo and Roxy & Elsewhere.


----------



## starthrower

A bootleg recording of Sinister Footwear (orchestral) is up at YouTube.


----------



## Crudblud

It's a shame that the full version still isn't there.


----------



## starthrower

You can download the whole thing from Amazon for .99 cents, along
with the entire Beat The Boots series.
http://www.amazon.com/Sinister-Footwear/dp/B0029QW9L6


----------



## Crudblud

Well that's something, at least. It'd be really great if Kent could arrange a special series of sessions of music for a studio recording, but I guess he has his hands full at the moment.


----------



## BurningDesire




----------



## Crudblud

Here's an interesting one, Kent Nagano talking about how he met Frank for the first time after seeing he had been commissioned by Boulez.


----------



## BurningDesire

Crudblud said:


> Here's an interesting one, Kent Nagano talking about how he met Frank for the first time after seeing he had been commissioned by Boulez.


I hope one day I can write as well and as confidently as Frank. Amazing musician


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Yep Uncle Meat is my fav- if i have to pick one


----------



## starthrower

FZ at his tenderest. Too bad a good version of this didn't make it
onto one of the live releases.


----------



## Weston

I recently obtained an mp3 version of "Francesco Zappa" after much long anticipation and looking. In this album he gives the Wendy Carlos treatment to the works of 18th century composer Francesco Zappa (no relation) on his synclavier. I'm sorry to confess I am disappointed. This is a very mechanical dull sounding effort for him. Others have done this much more effectively and with more life and enthusiasm. 

I suspect he was playing around learning the ins and outs of this instrument and just decided to release the result. All his other output is brilliant in various ways, but not so much this.


----------



## Crudblud

Weston said:


> I recently obtained an mp3 version of "Francesco Zappa" after much long anticipation and looking. In this album he gives the Wendy Carlos treatment to the works of 18th century composer Francesco Zappa (no relation) on his synclavier. I'm sorry to confess I am disappointed. This is a very mechanical dull sounding effort for him. Others have done this much more effectively and with more life and enthusiasm.
> 
> I suspect he was playing around learning the ins and outs of this instrument and just decided to release the result. All his other output is brilliant in various ways, but not so much this.


I think it was either a joke (based on the subsection about the origins of Francesco in _The Real Frank Zappa Book_) or Frank was just so amazed by the Synclavier that he allowed it to get the better of him briefly. If you'll notice this one is the only superfluous Synclavier record Frank released, and it's also one of the earliest, coming just a few months after _The Perfect Stranger_. Of greater note is the bizarre one man stage show Frank developed based on Francesco as a character, an excerpt of which can be heard in one of his university talks on youtube, but I don't remember which video it is so you'll have to go digging for that one yourself.


----------



## starthrower

Listen to Civilization Phase III to hear how far FZ's synclavier work progressed from Francesco Zappa. The earlier album didn't even have any sampled sounds and comes off as a generic product. The later is quite astonishing in its depth and realism.


----------



## Flamme

BurningDesire said:


> Frank Zappa was a brilliant composer. He didn't dumb his music down when he was composing for his "rock/jazz" groups, and he didn't excise his quirkiness or his sense of humor when writing for orchestra. Even when he's writing RnB tunes, I think of him as a composer in the extremely broad western classical tradition. His ideas expand upon the ideas of other great composers like Bartok, Webern, Stravinsky, and Varese. Frank is the reason I am a composer.


I thought he was only a great jazz r n r guitarist...One learns something new every day


----------



## starthrower

Zappa was never a jazz guitarist. He really didn't play stock licks and phrases from any idiom. He obviously loved many kinds of music including some modern jazz, but he had a unique mongrel east/west guitar style with a heavy rock sound. And he preferred to improvise over vamps as opposed to lots of chord changes.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Yes I believe you are prob right here - Frank was not unpartial to the odd practical joke too, or should I say **** take- look at Ruben and the Jets, at least that was his own stuff and a take on the form.

PS I don't believe there are any synclavier's around anymore - maybe apart from Franks old one.....?


----------



## starthrower

Just uploaded on YouTube. Canadian radio documentary.
Frank Zappa-composer


----------



## starthrower

Crud, I think you'll find this doc extremely interesting. Many of FZ's musicians expounding on his compositions. It's also cool to hear FZ use the word "miracle" when talking about the mystery of human musical ability and performance.


----------



## Bone

Blown away. Thank you so much for posting these vids.


----------



## oogabooha

now that I have some time on my hands, I need somebody to help me go through Zappa's massive discography. His eccentric personality and compositional input still baffles and confuses me. I'm familiar with most of it (I've listened to many albums and I do love _Hot Rats_), but if I wanted to _understand_ Zappa, how would I approach his music, and with which albums should I start?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

I would start with the earlie works like Unclemeat, Burnt Weeny Sandwich or WOITFTM

I've recently got a copy of The Lost Episodes, which I think is a good starting point to get a handle on Zappa.


----------



## rrudolph

Lather is a good intro to Zappa since it includes several key aspects to his work; orchestral compositions are included alongside blistering guitar solos and deliberately sophmoric scatalogical songs. It's too early for the synclavier stuff but is a pretty good representation of what he was up to in the 1970's.


----------



## starthrower

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> I've recently got a copy of The Lost Episodes, which I think is a good starting point to get a handle on Zappa.
> 
> View attachment 13178


You know that really cool arrangement of RDNZL w/ JL Ponty on this album?

Watch this!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ Love that piece - Amazing that it sat around for so long in the Zappa Vault. But I guess there is still much more too.


----------



## starthrower

I wonder why FZ didn't put it on the Overnite Sensation album? Anyway, I've been grooving to the Hammersmith 1978 set. I've hesitated for years on buying some of the posthumous concert releases, but I'm very happy with this one. The band is super tight, and FZ is in good spirits and sharp as a tack! The recordings sound great too.

Now if they can just find a good recording of the '73 band w/ Ponty, Bruce Fowler, Ruth, etc. I'll snap that up in a heartbeat!


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ Yep - I think the Overnite Senation period would be my fav Zappa band. Havn't got the Hammersmith CD yet (will do thou), as I try to pick up as much Zappa on Vinyl as I can- got about 20 Vinyl Lp's, plus a few Flo and Eddies lol (for light blessed relief).


----------



## starthrower

The only Zappa I have on vinyl is Shut Up N Play Yer Guitar. It's the glossy cover box set that was released a few years after the original mail order albums.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

^ Ok cool- that's something I've not got on vinyl - i've got the CD boxed set for SUPNPYG


----------



## 38157

BurningDesire said:


> I just wish Frank's scores were published so students could buy them and study them.


I have a .pdf of the Frank Zappa songbook, which includes piano reductions of some of his pieces (incl. Pen_i_s Dimension, Music For Low Budget Orchestra, The Idiot Bas_t_ard Son, etc.) as well as a handwritten .pdf of the bass-line of Mo 'n Herb's Vacation and the trap set score for The Black Page (which is easily accessed via a quick google search). If you like, I can send them to you.

Zappa was the best. His music motivated me to teach myself to read and write and it honed my transcription skills (especially in rhythm) beyond that of any of my peers (even at university, where I thought that the other composers would blow me out of the ******* water - turns out a lot of them are disappointing, small-minded and somewhat incompetent). And he never felt like an ivory tower composer, although to an extent he did lock himself away in his own little world - he did have relevance (or at least as much relevance as a composer can have, anyway).
Good facial hair, too, although he did rip it off Johnny Otis.

*I realise now my quoted post is from a fair while ago (turns out it says July 15 rather than June - and it far as I know this year isn't 2012). Goes to show my attentiveness to search results.


----------



## EdwardBast

I always loved Greggery Peccary (I forget exactly how he misspelled it.) — an homage to Stravinsky.


----------



## Crudblud

EdwardBast said:


> I always loved Greggery Peccary (I forget exactly how he misspelled it.) - an homage to Stravinsky.


You got the spelling right, but I don't know why you think it is at all an homage to Stravinsky.


----------



## EdwardBast

Crudblud said:


> You got the spelling right, but I don't know why you think it is at all an homage to Stravinsky.


Yes, I have perhaps departed from my usual musicological exactitude. The big final theme ("Who is ma-a-a-king those new brown clouds") always reminded me of the end of _The Firebird_, as does the gorgeous lyricism of some of the Big Swifty episodes. Some of the disjunctive metric effects (Greggery drives his Volkswagen to the ugly side of town) remind me of Stravinsky as well. Probably not enough to support my admittedly subjective impression.


----------



## BurningDesire

****** said:


> I have a .pdf of the Frank Zappa songbook, which includes piano reductions of some of his pieces (incl. Pen_i_s Dimension, Music For Low Budget Orchestra, The Idiot Bas_t_ard Son, etc.) as well as a handwritten .pdf of the bass-line of Mo 'n Herb's Vacation and the trap set score for The Black Page (which is easily accessed via a quick google search). If you like, I can send them to you.
> 
> Zappa was the best. His music motivated me to teach myself to read and write and it honed my transcription skills (especially in rhythm) beyond that of any of my peers (even at university, where I thought that the other composers would blow me out of the ******* water - turns out a lot of them are disappointing, small-minded and somewhat incompetent). And he never felt like an ivory tower composer, although to an extent he did lock himself away in his own little world - he did have relevance (or at least as much relevance as a composer can have, anyway).
> Good facial hair, too, although he did rip it off Johnny Otis.
> 
> *I realise now my quoted post is from a fair while ago (turns out it says July 15 rather than June - and it far as I know this year isn't 2012). Goes to show my attentiveness to search results.


I am still here :3 I'd love to have those scores!


----------



## BurningDesire

Crudblud said:


> You got the spelling right, but I don't know why you think it is at all an homage to Stravinsky.


Yeah... Igor's Boogie, Phases 1 and 2 on the other hand are explicitly little homages to Stravinsky ^_^


----------



## starthrower

A wonderful presentation here featuring several Zappa drummers.






And a nifty show here with some groovy material.


----------



## Capeditiea

rrudolph said:


> Lather is a good intro to Zappa since it includes several key aspects to his work; orchestral compositions are included alongside blistering guitar solos and deliberately sophmoric scatalogical songs. It's too early for the synclavier stuff but is a pretty good representation of what he was up to in the 1970's.


this shall be next on my list of my listening to Zappa time.


----------



## millionrainbows

Some of his Synclavier works are on "Dance Me This" and "Feeding the Monkeys at Mai Mason." Both are must-haves.


----------



## St Matthew

millionrainbows said:


> Some of his Synclavier works are on "Dance Me This" and "Feeding the Monkeys at Mai Mason." Both are must-haves.


Or practically all the music he wrote and recorded, either way they're both excellent solutions


----------



## Radagast

Watch out where the huskies go.And don't you eat that yellow snow  Great musician and humourist, taken too early.


----------

