# The Sibelius Symphonies - Kullervo



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

OK ... I'm stretching things to consider Kullervo as a symphony ... but only a wee bit! What is fascinating is to consider that during about 30 years from 1880 to 1910, 4 major composers kick-started their symphonic careers with big scale orchestral/choral works. Then in all four cases, moved on to their own distinctive mature styles ... Mahler's Klagende Lied, Kullervo, Schoenberg's Gurrelieder and Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony.

I have known Kullervo since its first commercial recording was released - Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony. Since then I have had Berglund's later Helsinki recording, Vanska from Lahti and Paavo Jarvi from Stockholm, in addition to hearing it done live by Salonen in LA. Of the recordings, Berglund's original is still high on my list, perhaps partly from the excitement of the original discovery, although his later one is almost equally good. I thought that Jarvi's was excellent, at least until I got to the last movement which he took at a painfully slow pace. Vanska ... well that CD made for a great frisbee, it was awful ... absurdly slow (the performance, not the frisbee.)

If you want to watch a really good and exciting performance, check out the video of Santtu-Matias Rouvali and the Gothenburg symphony on Vimeo. It was Rouvali's debut concert as music director.






P.S. The soloists are actually brother & sister!


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

I haven't heard the whole symphony, but you just convinced me to order a copy. I went for the Spano/Atlanta Symphony on Telarc. There are no Finns involved, so perhaps I'm taking unnecessary risk, but I like what I heard of their performance and I've seen the conductor and orchestra several times and they never disappoint. If I end up truly hating it, then at least I will have a new frisbee. Also, $10 for a hybrid SACD ain't bad, eh?


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

Count me as another you've induced to order


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've loved the first Berglund since I first heard it on LP. It's big-boned, rugged and intense. Unsurpassed since, IMO.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

For me, Kullervo just confirms that his early music is a world away from his later style.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^True, but in the same way that RVW's Sea Symphony is a world away from his 4th, 5th etc., or Mahler's Klagende Lied and his 6th etc., or...! And that is why Sibelius withdrew Kullervo until after his death, and Mahler who withdrew the first part of Klagende Lied. That isn't necessarily a bad thing as I think that we would be very much the poorer without these works. Composers' styles don't spring fully formed. Fortunately Schoenberg and RVW did no such thing.

For those unfamiliar with Kullervo and who are wondering what the fuss is about, a good sampler starts at 33:15 of the above link - the beginning of the 3rd movement: Kullervo and His Sister


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I have the Salonen (Los Angeles Philharmonic, Sony). It is described on the CD back cover as a "Symphonic poem for soloists, chorus and orchestra". It's been quite a while since I played it, but I do not remember it made a great impression on me, not like his symphonies, concerto and the more famous tone poems.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is a work I have a strong affection for - although I agree it is not in the same class as the symphonies - and I have four versions of it. I like the Vanska and the first Colin Davis but like the LSO Live Davis more, I think. Segerstam's is also quite good.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Becca said:


> ^^True, but in the same way that RVW's Sea Symphony is a world away from his 4th, 5th etc., or Mahler's Klagende Lied and his 6th etc., or...! And that is why Sibelius withdrew Kullervo until after his death, and Mahler who withdrew the first part of Klagende Lied. That isn't necessarily a bad thing as I think that we would be very much the poorer without these works. *Composers' styles don't spring fully formed*. Fortunately Schoenberg and RVW did no such thing.
> 
> For those unfamiliar with Kullervo and who are wondering what the fuss is about, a good sampler starts at 33:15 of the above link - the beginning of the 3rd movement: Kullervo and His Sister


I would agree, but such criticism isn't universally shared amongst members here.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

I had lived with Colin Davis' first LSO outing for a long time and thought it was nice, until I got the Berglund/Bournemouth, which blew me away!


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

If those soloists are indeed brother and sister in real life, I do hope they didn't enjoy singing it too much.....eeeew!

It's a symphony, don't worry, but yeah, it's too different to properly incorporate into a "Sibelius cycle", if you get my drift.

Berglund is brilliant with this work, a strong preference for one Helsinki recording, partly for the incomparable singing of Jorma Hynninen. Got quite a few recordings, both Jarvis do a good job, as does Colin Davis!


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Becca said:


> OK ... I'm stretching things to consider Kullervo as a symphony ... but only a wee bit! What is fascinating is to consider that during about 30 years from 1880 to 1910, 4 major composers kick-started their symphonic careers with big scale orchestral/choral works. Then in all four cases, moved on to their own distinctive mature styles ... Mahler's Klagende Lied, Kullervo, Schoenberg's Gurrelieder and Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony.
> 
> I have known Kullervo since its first commercial recording was released - Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony. Since then I have had Berglund's later Helsinki recording, Vanska from Lahti and Paavo Jarvi from Stockholm, in addition to hearing it done live by Salonen in LA. Of the recordings, Berglund's original is still high on my list, perhaps partly from the excitement of the original discovery, although his later one is almost equally good. I thought that Jarvi's was excellent, at least until I got to the last movement which he took at a painfully slow pace. Vanska ... well that CD made for a great frisbee, it was awful ... absurdly slow (the performance, not the frisbee.)
> 
> ...


Kullervo
Sibelius finest work
The Vanska is trash, Zero stars out a possible 10
Salonen's is excellent, 
The Berglund/Helsinki and the Bourgemouth are both superb.

Segerstam 's is good/OK.

Jarvi is a bit off/OK/not too shabby...
The Naxos release also is pretty good,

Bottom line 
Berglund/Helsinki is my overall favorite.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Enthusiast said:


> It is a work I have a strong affection for - although I agree it is not in the same class as the symphonies - and I have four versions of it. I like the Vanska and the first Colin Davis but like the LSO Live Davis more, I think. Segerstam's is also quite good.


For me his Kullervo towers far above his 7 symphonies. 
High above.
Thats just my opinion,,
of course...
should make a disclaimer here, I am not so interested in his 7 syms.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

paulbest said:


> For me his Kullervo towers far above his 7 symphonies.
> High above.
> Thats just my opinion,,
> of course...
> should make a disclaimer here, I am not so interested in his 7 syms.


Why do you think he withdrew the piece and refused to let it be published until after his death?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The comment about the other "7 syms" tells me all I need to know.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

janxharris said:


> Why do you think he withdrew the piece and refused to let it be published until after his death?


Not sure, He was young and very creative at the time, very proud of his new masterpiece,,,,surely something new on the world's stage which would have taken Europe by STORM,,,,,,better than any Bruckner, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Dvorak, etc etc ETC,,,not as powerful as Wagner, but then which composer could match Wagner, turn of the century when Kullervo was written?

Tchaikovsky was getting popular, I think, not sure. 
So who were the *critics* who booed the great masterpiece?
I have no idea,,,but rumors go, these critics booed the work as *youthful enthusiasm , nothing really interesting*,,,these opinions hung in the air and everyone believed the tripe, the garbage. 
Then later on, Sibelius developed some depressions and such, and may have felt the critics had a valid point, that Kullervo was not too hip, not modern enough and maybe not as good as Bruckner and Mahler. 
So who knows why Sibelius suppressed the work.

Was there a chorus at that time who could handle the chorus section?
Not sure. 
These are all guesses. 
But as I recall redaing some notes in a LP release, this rumor had some punch to it and influenced its reception and subsequent neglect...

….
although Becca, dismisses my far flung opinion as *baloney*,,,I've seen one or 2 commenst on a YT upload saying somewhat I feel about the work,,,that it is finest.

Sure I know that's way out left field, and has no merit...but there is a growing consensus that Kullervo is his finest.

Weird idea I am sure for all you Sibeliusians.

Considering Sibelius never said any such thing.

Its just the way a few of us feel.

I had no idea he withheld it til after death.

I have no idea, other than the critics did not want it out in public,,,olest the home town boys lose some ,,spot light, some stardom,,,that is the big shots music would have sounded dreary next to the masterpiece, Kullervo...Beethoven/Dvorak/Brahms/Bruckner,,that is the Vienna and Berlin home town stars would have lost some of their glimmer and glitz.

None of the romantics/classics, stand a candle next to Kullervo's bright shinning star light.
This is my belief, The Illuminati had to keep the light on their little darlings and so Kullervo had to takea mafia style hit and be gunned down, right at it was on its way to the primere.

Now we can hear the truth.
Go ahead, puta Beethoven , next to Kullervo.
For proof. 
Oe is so calculated, so organized and exact , programmatic, so predictable,,whereas the other is a gushing of creative , folk inspired magical sounds from the underworld. 
Brahms and Kulervo are so opposed. 
The Viennese/Berlin had to make sure Kullervo never saw the stage .

Such is the Illumianti and their little darlings.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

paulbest said:


> Sure I know that's way out left field, and has no merit...but there is a growing consensus that Kullervo is his finest.


I suppose you know that the word consensus refers to a decision that all can live with? It may not be their preferred option (and often isn't) but neither is it so outrageous that anyone objects to it. You argument seems to acknowledge that many (most?) music lovers may be shocked by this view but that a few people on YouTube feel the same was as you. If there is a consensus that this is the case then you have not even come close to demonstrating it. I suspect that its emotionalism is what makes you love the work. Fair enough. I love it, too. But if I were forced to compare it with other works by Sibelius then I could not rank it higher than any of the symphonies or tone poems.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

The 4 Legends are quite good, no denying that.
*The Consensus* , true is not a fan group you can actually point to and say *There, are the Sibeliusians, who love Kullervo*
They are hidden, reclusive and know their Sibelius, 
I had nearly 6 full sym sets, listened to many all my first few yrs in classical music,,,For some odd reason, none really stuck with me,,,not like Kullervo.
There must be something in that work which is excellent, beginning to end. The 7 symns, all have something missing , here and there.


Sure the Kullervo is not like say Szymanowski's King Roger, nor on the level of Ravel's daphne.
Yet which Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Mahler can match the level of music in this orch with soloists/chorus?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

If your comments are based on a few people on YT or Amazon, then they are essentially worthless as you know nothing about their knowledge, interests, biases etc.

As to "but there is a growing consensus that Kullervo is his finest.", I am sure a few people do but the idea of it being a consensus is ludicrous.


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## Tero (Jun 2, 2012)

I too had the Berglund Kullervo set. It took forever to come out. Sibelius did not want the piece even performed when he was alive.

My grandmother sent it to, my first LPs of Sibelius being that and the Kamu 2nd. i had some baroque music on record at the time, but no pieces this long. I think I just played it one side at a time. Mostly I played just the 3rd movement, I think I stuck that on the end of the cassette of Sibelius material. i did not know what to do with the rest.

The Kullervo piece in the Kalevala actually never interested me much. Every Finn remembers the part in the story about the bread: "Pohjan Tytär (Daughter of North), wife of Ilmarinen (a nymph-like, magically gifted demigoddess character herself) enjoys tormenting the slave boy, now a youth, and sends Kullervo out to herd her cows with a loaf of bread with stones baked into it." 
What was I supposed to do with the rest of the story? It was not poplar with school kids. We had a rough time with the old language.

But it is a successful vocal piece. There were not that many Sibelius orchestra and choir pieces I ever played repeatedly. I of course played only ones in Finnish, none of the pieces in Swedish.

I like the opening movement as well. The rest of the structure of the piece just struck me as odd. And long.

The Kullervo myth synopis is here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kullervo

Though the Kullervo is only partly vocal, I only listen to some of his vocal music. Not any of the soloist works, just the choral works such as this disc.
https://www.allmusic.com/album/saarella-palaa-mw0002417618


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

According to musicologist Tawaststjerna, Sibelius considered Kullervo an immature work and that even with revision it would be difficult to improve upon. He also said that Sibelius was concerned about his reputation - not wanting to be thought of as someone influenced by other composers and folk music.

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/sibelius-kullervo-symphony-1


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

We might compare this with Sibelius's view of his seventh symphony after conducting it's first performance on March 24th, 1924 in Stockholm:

"A great success. There is no denying it: my new work is one of the best. Tone and ’colour’ both powerful."


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Got my CD, listening now. Great music so far. I was expecting more singing, so 3 out of 5 movements are totally instrumental?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

That is correct


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

That's fine by me... puts it more in the tradition of the choral symphony à la Beethoven, Mahler etc. more so than a cantata/orchestral song cycle, which is more or less what I thought it was going in. 

Anyway, I loved it. Can definitely hear flashes of inspiration for what was to come.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

janxharris said:


> According to musicologist Tawaststjerna, Sibelius considered Kullervo an immature work and that even with revision it would be difficult to improve upon. He also said that Sibelius was concerned about his reputation - not wanting to be thought of as someone influenced by other composers and folk music.
> 
> https://www.gramophone.co.uk/review/sibelius-kullervo-symphony-1


Sibelius was always insecure, and hypersensitive about his reputation. I'm sure he recognized that _Kullervo_ was an inspired and exciting work, but as his compositional concerns moved in the direction of greater emphasis on form and concision, the epic's almost cinematic narrative no longer fit in with his artistic goals. I think many artists feel uncomfortable with showing their early works, which they feel no longer represent them. It's interesting, though, that Sibelius advised young artists to keep their early sketches, saying that they would never again have such brilliant inspirations.


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## MatthewWeflen (Jan 24, 2019)

I am now listening to the Colin Davis /LSO Kullervo. It is exceptional, and I am very glad to have a piece that lacks Sibelius' later concision.


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## paulbest (Apr 18, 2019)

Woodduck said:


> Sibelius was always insecure, and hypersensitive about his reputation. I'm sure he recognized that _Kullervo_ was an inspired and exciting work, but as his compositional concerns moved in the direction of greater emphasis on form and concision, the epic's almost cinematic narrative no longer fit in with his artistic goals. I think many artists feel uncomfortable with showing their early works, which they feel no longer represent them. It's interesting, though, that Sibelius advised young artists to keep their early sketches, saying that they would never again have such brilliant inspirations.


Excellent post, Pretty much sums up what happened.

Glad you put in Sibelius comment about composers hanging onto youthful sketches saying in effect these firey energenic impulses may not come again later on...and the ideas may not be remembered correctly. 
Glad to see a few Sibeliusians appreciate it, *in spite of its ,,,weaknesses* supposedly faults.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

MatthewWeflen said:


> I am now listening to the Colin Davis /LSO Kullervo. It is exceptional, and I am very glad to have a piece that lacks Sibelius' later concision.


You must listen to the earlier (1915) version of the 5th symphony. He removed a lot to arrive at the version we now know.

View attachment 120647


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Becca said:


> OK ... I'm stretching things to consider Kullervo as a symphony ... but only a wee bit! What is fascinating is to consider that during about 30 years from 1880 to 1910, 4 major composers kick-started their symphonic careers with big scale orchestral/choral works. Then in all four cases, moved on to their own distinctive mature styles ... Mahler's Klagende Lied, Kullervo, Schoenberg's Gurrelieder and Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony.
> 
> I have known Kullervo since its first commercial recording was released - Paavo Berglund and the Bournemouth Symphony. Since then I have had Berglund's later Helsinki recording, Vanska from Lahti and Paavo Jarvi from Stockholm, in addition to hearing it done live by Salonen in LA. Of the recordings, Berglund's original is still high on my list, perhaps partly from the excitement of the original discovery, although his later one is almost equally good. I thought that Jarvi's was excellent, at least until I got to the last movement which he took at a painfully slow pace. Vanska ... well that CD made for a great frisbee, it was awful ... absurdly slow (the performance, not the frisbee.)
> 
> If you want to watch a really good and exciting performance, check out the video of Santtu-Matias Rouvali and the Gothenburg symphony on Vimeo. It was Rouvali's debut concert as music director.


I have had the Berglund/Bournemouth recording in my collection for many years but for some reason unknown to me it had been hidden away - until just a few days ago when it re-emerged during a search for something else. It is glorious. The Davis is not in the same class

Also I agree with you that it is in the same league as the Gurrelieder- one of my all-time favorite works


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ Colin Davis made two recordings. Which one are you referring to?


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

paulbest said:


> Not sure, He was young and very creative at the time, very proud of his new masterpiece,,,,surely something new on the world's stage which would have taken Europe by STORM,,,,,,better than any Bruckner, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, Dvorak, etc etc ETC,,,not as powerful as Wagner, but then which composer could match Wagner, turn of the century when Kullervo was written?
> 
> Tchaikovsky was getting popular, I think, not sure.
> So who were the *critics* who booed the great masterpiece?
> ...


More power to you.


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> ^ Colin Davis made two recordings. Which one are you referring to?


I concede that the only one I have heard is the earlier recording. Having just checked the list of all recordings of this marvelous work, it seems I have a lot more listening to do if I can find some of the others. The Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra recording with Neeme Järvi might be the next choice. Suggestions please


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^ It was just that I do really like the LSO Live account by Colin Davis. You might try to hear that one. And I quite liked Vanska's Lahti recording. I also know the Segerstam one (but don't like it as much as the two). Berglund's (I've only heard the Bournemouth one) is very good, though.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

aussiebushman said:


> The Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra recording with Neeme Järvi might be the next choice. Suggestions please


You might consider the recording by Järvi's son Paavo:









It's one of the slower recordings, if that matters to you. The vocal soloists are particularly good.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Salonen/LAPO is very good...for me, it surpasses, Berglund/Bournemouth, which is a fine effort, and first complete recording, iirc....


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## aussiebushman (Apr 21, 2018)

Thank you for these recommendations - will attempt to find both of them. For me, Kullervo is new surpassing the symphonies in my selection of Sibelius favorites, despite my particular liking for the 2nd. 

I may have already told about one day driving in the NSW mountains from Oberon to my property south of there. The sky was clear but the snow was a foot thick at the roadsides and covering the pine trees. Nothing could have been more appropriate than the 2nd symphony I was playing at the time!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ You might also want to check out the live performance video available on Vimeo. There is a link on my OP...
The Sibelius Symphonies - Kullervo


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