# Antonin Dvorak



## SamGuss

Antonin Dvorak (1841-1904), Czech composer of romantic classical music.

A friend of Johannes Brahms, Dvorak gave up playing viola in an orchestra to begin composing in 1871 full time. He lived for several years in America, where he wrote one of his most popular pieces Symphony No. 9 as well as other works including his Cello Concerto. His daughter ended up marrying one of his pupils - Josef Suk.

As an interesting piece of historical trivia, Neil Armstrong took his Symphony No. 9 on the Apollo 11 mission (the first moon landing in 1969).

About his Concerto for Cello and Orchestra, it was well recieved and even Brahms was impressed enough to state: "Had I known that one could write a cello concerto like this, I would have written one long ago!" or "Why on earth didn't I know that one could write a cello concerto like this? If I had only known, I would have written one long ago!" (2 different sources says 2 different things - go figure!)

It is his Symphony No. 9 that so long ago became the first piece of classical music that I liked and has stuck with me through the years. At this point I own Harnoncourt's version and intend on owning Karajan one day as well.

Why do I like it? I can't tell you honestly... I enjoy the power of the horns and the drums together... the peace of the strings and woodwinds would be a start but not a fulfilling description. I simply enjoy it.

Sam


----------



## Edward Elgar

One of the greatest tunesmiths to come out of eastern europe. He is a master of both large and small scale works which shows versatility. I love the fellow!


----------



## opus67

SamGuss said:


> I enjoy the power of the horns and the drums together...


Then listen to the final movement of the 8th!

Some of his chamber works I like are the piano quintet, Op.81, the serenade for winds, Op.44 and, of course, the string quartet No.12.


----------



## Rachovsky

Love the opening solo on the final movement of the 8th and I adore the "American" Quintet (String Quartet No. 12). Also all of his humoresques are nice.


----------



## World Violist

I like the four bagatelles he wrote (I don't know the instrumentation...). Of course, the ninth symphony is an inspiration and the twelfth quartet is amazing as well (go VIOLA SOLOS!!!).


----------



## Edward Elgar

opus67 said:


> Then listen to the final movement of the 8th!


What an immense movement! I can't get enough of that exelent flute solo and powerful chromatic coda! A masterpiece!


----------



## tan_pang

His 8th Symphony is one of my favorite. Like 1st and 4th movement very much.
By the way, the New World Symphony is something that I almost listen everyday... 

Anyone listen to his Czech Suite?? It is a rare piece and I manage to get the Polka and Finale only... both movement also nice!!


----------



## ChamberNut

tan_pang said:


> Anyone listen to his Czech Suite?? It is a rare piece and I manage to get the Polka and Finale only... both movement also nice!!


I listened to it last night actually.  Well, the I and II mvts anyway, at the music appreciation class I am taking. Love the Polka II. mvt. It's gorgeous!


----------



## SamGuss

tan_pang said:


> His 8th Symphony is one of my favorite. Like 1st and 4th movement very much.
> By the way, the New World Symphony is something that I almost listen everyday...
> 
> Anyone listen to his Czech Suite?? It is a rare piece and I manage to get the Polka and Finale only... both movement also nice!!


I listen to New World just about everyday myself. I am convinced though I now need more copies. I have Harnoncourt's version and I plan on getting Karajan's version sometime this month. Down the road I am thinking I want Neumann's and Bernstein's versions as well.

I am definately going to seek out his Czech Suite now as well - thank you for the heads up about it!


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

Dvořák's _Symphony #9_ is, arguably, the most immediately "winning" of his compositions. It is, nonetheless, not alone in its ability to enchant the listener on first hearing. To whit-

Interesting thoughts here on the _Czech Suite_... but to "do" the _Czech Suite_ without doing the _American Suite_ would be like reading Milton's _Il Penseroso_ while overlooking _L'Allegro_!

Second place in the "instant impression" category for Dvořák compositions would likely go to the _Slavonic Dances_- specifically the first set: Opus 46. I first discovered them on borrowed vinyl by way of "Reb"'s belovèd Szell/Cleveland Orchestra. It's almost invariably paired with the (more respected by sober critics) Opus 72. If you don't see things the way the sober critics do, you'll have an ally in me.

Finally, Dvořák's _Carnival Overture_ has been a friend since my teenaged years. I was making do with a stop-gap version on Naxos by Gunzenhauser and the BBC Philharmonic, but I now have the Kubelik rendition. My "age-of-vinyl" entreé was from Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic, and, as one might expect, it was a corker(!)


----------



## World Violist

Ah!!! The Carnival Overture is one of my favorites also, but all this talk of the 9th and Czech Suite made me forget!

Along with other single-movement things, listen to the Romance for violin and orchestra (a really good one is Perlman/Barenboim). It's gorgeous. I immediately fell in love with it, and the beginning is so unforgettable!


----------



## SamGuss

opus67 said:


> Then listen to the final movement of the 8th!
> 
> Some of his chamber works I like are the piano quintet, Op.81, the serenade for winds, Op.44 and, of course, the string quartet No.12.


Opus, time and time again you are leading me to such great stuff! Just send me a list of your repitore and I'll just start collecting what you have  Seriously though, it's been the rare piece that you've recommended that I haven't listened to for the first time and liked it when I heard it. Keep the suggestions coming in the future - please!


----------



## SamGuss

Chi_town/Philly said:


> Finally, Dvořák's _Carnival Overture_ has been a friend since my teenaged years. I was making do with a stop-gap version on Naxos by Gunzenhauser and the BBC Philharmonic, but I now have the Kubelik rendition. My "age-of-vinyl" entreé was from Bernstein and the New York Philharmonic, and, as one might expect, it was a corker(!)


Heard this one earlier today for the first time thanks to your suggestion and it was really awesome. I've said it before, I'll say it again - so much to get, but in which order! I find that I _like_ problems like this.


----------



## opus67

SamGuss said:


> Opus, time and time again you are leading me to such great stuff! Just send me a list of your repitore and I'll just start collecting what you have  Seriously though, it's been the rare piece that you've recommended that I haven't listened to for the first time and liked it when I heard it. Keep the suggestions coming in the future - please!


 Glad to have been of help. My repertoire? It's as standard and as boring as it can get, just the usual stuff.(And I haven't even listened to them all, yet!) But if you want to listen to composers rarely heard of, you're best advised to consult TC member *oisfetz*.


----------



## shsherm

When I was younger I enjoyed the 8th which at that time was called the 5th. Now I really enjoy the 7th and the Slavonic Dances more. I almost don't like the 9th anymore because I place it in the overplayed warhorse category. I played the last movement of the 9th in my highschool band. I was a trumpet player 1955-1959.


----------



## World Violist

Yes, I can definitely see Dvorak's ninth being far overplayed, but hey! it's a great piece...

I sometimes can't listen to it either; it's a sort of mood one needs to be in in order to listen to it, unlike other pieces that draw you in...


----------



## opus67

shsherm said:


> When I was younger I enjoyed the 8th which at that time was called the 5th.


Wasn't the current No.9 oringially published as his No.5?


----------



## shsherm

I may have gotten the numbers mixed up. I think you are correct. Another Dvorak piece I enjoy is the Czech Suite.


----------



## SamGuss

This morning - er yesterday morning, I sampled Dvorak Seranade for Strings and Seranade for Winds. Liked both a lot and see myself adding this to my collection soon.


----------



## tan_pang

To SamGuss:
Did you got the Karajan's version of New World Symphony??

Actually, I don't think Karajan's New World Symphony is good, but I think the other way...
His New World Symphony is one of the worst I listen ever... Anyway, this is only my opinion base on 1st movement...


----------



## Artemis

I went through a phase of liking Dvorak a great deal, and I collected a wide range of his music. I think the first piece I liked was the New World Symphony, and I regard the version by Reiner/Chicago SO as being among the best, although I must admit I haven't heard a bad version of this work. Dvorak is a very good composer for a newcomer to start with as he covers many of the music genres, and much of his music is very accessible (i.e. easy to appreciate and understand because of its catchy tunes and strong melody), even including a lot of his chamber works. 

But after a while I found that I got a little tired of Dvorak, and at the about the same time Tchaikovsky too. I looked around for something more complex and thought-provoking but still in the same broad Romantic mould. Even though my very first impressions were not strongly favourable, I soon found that I thoroughly enjoyed Schumann and Brahms and I consider these two to be a notch or two higher in the quality stakes than the aforementioned. Although I have tried several times to gain greater appreciation, I never really became convinced about either Bruckner or Mahler. I find them both too long-winded, with much boring stuff mixed up with some admittedly good material. I can happily listen to many of their works but I don't rate them as highly as Schumann and Brahms. In preference to Bruckner and Mahler I'd sooner take Sibelius as the last great Romantic composer.


----------



## SamGuss

tan_pang said:


> To SamGuss:
> Did you got the Karajan's version of New World Symphony??
> 
> Actually, I don't think Karajan's New World Symphony is good, but I think the other way...
> His New World Symphony is one of the worst I listen ever... Anyway, this is only my opinion base on 1st movement...


Yes, I have Karajan's version and like it a great deal. It's couple with Dvorak's 8th which is also pretty good.


----------



## SamGuss

Artemis said:


> In preference to Bruckner and Mahler I'd sooner take Sibelius as the last great Romantic composer.


Personally I like Mahler, still haven't explored Bruckner and just started to get into Sibelius and am loving his work so far.


----------



## jurianbai

I love Dvorak, mainly because of his music assosiate with more ethnic/exotic scales. favorite works :

string quartet 
no.12 "American" op.96 is all time favorite for me. 
no.10 in Eb Op.51
no.14 in Ab op.105

Symph no.8 & no.9

Slavonic Dance op.46 and 72

all three concertos for piano, violin and cello

humoresque op.101


----------



## Atabey

The third movement of his 8th is one of the sweetest melodies i have ever encountered.


----------



## Christi

*Dvorak*

Symphony 9 "New World"
IS THAT AS RELAXING AS A RUNNING RIVER ???


----------



## Edward Elgar

Atabey said:


> The third movement of his 8th is one of the sweetest melodies i have ever encountered.


I hear you there! So sugery, and then when the counter-melody comes in it's almost too much pleasure! Very romantic.


----------



## Tapkaara

Christi said:


> Symphony 9 "New World"
> IS THAT AS RELAXING AS A RUNNING RIVER ???


ALL classical music is meant to be relaxing and never stimulating on any level.


----------



## emiellucifuge

I listen to the 9th twice a day, no matter how much others like it - I love it more!

I like the 6th a lot too and the scherzo from the 4th is great.

Recordings of the 9th I would definitely recommend George Solti with CSO or The Concertgebouw


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> I listen to the 9th twice a day, no matter how much others like it - I love it more!
> 
> I like the 6th a lot too and the scherzo from the 4th is great.
> 
> Recordings of the 9th I would definitely recommend George Solti with CSO or The Concertgebouw


You listen to Dvorak's 9th twice a day? You need to get out more.


----------



## Tapkaara

Mirror Image said:


> You listen to Dvorak's 9th twice a day? You need to get out more.


YOU need to get out more, MI!


----------



## Mirror Image

Tapkaara said:


> YOU need to get out more, MI!


I go out twice a day and sit on a part bench and ponder what my life would be like in surround sound.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Mirror Image said:


> You listen to Dvorak's 9th twice a day? You need to get out more.


Have you forgotten about Ipods!!?


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> Have you forgotten about Ipods!!?


What are you talking about?


----------



## emiellucifuge

you know...


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> you know...


No I don't. Please explain.


----------



## Praine

Portable listening devices. So you can go out and listen to music with your headphones plugged in.


----------



## Mirror Image

Reign of Praine said:


> Portable listening devices. So you can go out and listen to music with your headphones plugged in.


 I know what they are, but I don't understand the joke that he was making. It was a very bad joke....


----------



## emiellucifuge

It wasnt really a joke, you said I should get out more because I listen to Dvorak so much. Then I explained that I listen on my ipod so im out plenty.


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> It wasnt really a joke, you said I should get out more because I listen to Dvorak so much. Then I explained that I listen on my ipod so im out plenty.


Ah...I see now it makes sense. You still need to get out more.


----------



## emiellucifuge

probably do


----------



## emiellucifuge

*No dvorak yet?!*

I dont understand how there has been no thread for Dvorak so far?!

He is my absolute favorite composer. He mastered every form he touched, Symphonies (4,6,7,8,9), Opera (rusalka), Chamber music (string quartets, piano trios etc..), Concertos (violin and cello), Tone Poems (loads of these).

The finale from the 7th symphony is particulalry beautiful.
The 9th symphony is one of the most popular in the repertoire.
The 12th string quartet is amazing
The cello concerto is apparently the most recorded cello concerto.
The Dumky Trio is just amazing too.
The 8th symphony, and the 4th are incredibly good.
The American Suite is magnificent
Rondo For cello and orchestra is an underrated masterpiece, as is mazurka for violin and orchestra.
Humoresques and Slavonic Dances are very well loved.

Coming from a very humble background and never becoming rich despite his success - his music has a very down to earth quality, it never becomes pompous or bombastic, but retains a tremendous amount of emotion. I have found that within 20 bars he can capture solemnity, joy, hopefulness, sorrow, and a whole range of others.

He was the biggest influence on Czech music ever, basically leading the Bohemian Nationalism after Smetana created it.

He also had a huge influence on american music and became director of the New York Conservatory. He taught the teachers of Duke Ellignton, Gershwin and Copland and Realised that american music should come from that of the blacks and indians.

When He died he left 9 children and a wife, his son in law was Josef Suk. He was given a state funeral in Prague.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Also dont forget that he was very religious and his Stabat Mater is one of the best in the repertoire.


----------



## Chi_townPhilly

emiellucifuge said:


> No Dvořák yet?


Here's the previous composer guestbook thread for Dvořák.

No problem, I don't see anything wrong with another one.

"American Suite" is one of the many below-the radar Dvořák masterworks...


----------



## Weston

The 9th Symphony (which was the 5th when I was a kid) was the first piece of music in which I finally noticed the idea of thematic development - of taking little motifs and putting them through a meat grinder to see what comes out. It was quite an eye opener for a 10 year old.

Now I feel I never have to hear it again due to over exposure. But even after all these years I was able to hear something new in it by watching a DVD of it. By zooming in on the orchestra I could see the string players' fingers and realized what I thought was a separate 4 note motif in the 1st movement was really the same 3 note motif heard earlier with an extra beat at the begining (played by brass) and accented a little differently. Very simple, but disguised enough I never heard the similarity in decades of listeneing until I saw it. (If I had a score I could point to the exact measures of what I'm referring to.)

Dvorak is one composer I can recognize almost instantly upon first hearing a piece. He often seems to use the same distinct chordal structures. It's like a signature.

I don't think I've heard a piece by him I didn't like, but I often think of him as -- I don't know -- too normal? There shouldn't be anything wrong with that though. It's fantastic normal music when I give it a chance.


----------



## Mirror Image

There's actually two Dvorak threads. One I created in the Classical Discussion section titled "I'm Addicted To Dvorak" and the other one which Chi_Town points out is in the Composer Guestbook. It takes a little digging, but nobody has forgotten about Dvorak.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Sorry about that then, I looked through all pages of this particular sub forum but must have missed it.

Anyway MI why dont you show some appreciation for Dvorak?

Isnt it amazing weston when the themes from the first movement return in the climax of the second?


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> Sorry about that then, I looked through all pages of this particular sub forum but must have missed it.
> 
> Anyway MI why dont you show some appreciation for Dvorak?
> 
> Isnt it amazing weston when the themes from the first movement return in the climax of the second?


I created a whole thread about him. What more appreciation do I need to give?

http://www.talkclassical.com/5668-im-addicted-dvorak-thread.html


----------



## Rondo

I particularly like the 9th symphony (unsurprisingly) and the Piano Quintet in A (Op. 81). Great music!


----------



## Weston

emiellucifuge said:


> Isnt it amazing weston when the themes from the first movement return in the climax of the second?


Yes it is amazing - everything seems to foreshadow everything else, like a great novel. Maybe it's time I dusted off some Dvorak. I was wondering what to listen to in earnest tonight. Maybe I'll look into another one of his symphonies (Well, the 3rd and 6th are the only others I have.)


----------



## Mirror Image

Okay, I will say a few things about Dvorak since I'm a fan of his work. I never tire of his symphonies, especially 7-9. I adore his symphonic poems, the Slavonic Dances, and his concerti. I haven't got around to listening to his chamber works yet.

He had a remarkable style. He's almost like a Czech Brahms in a sense that his music has this very rustic or old world quality, but at the same time it was modern and forward-looking for its time. Dvorak, Smetana, Suk, and Janacek are, at least in my mind, the greatest Czech composers of their time.


----------



## Guest

emiellucifuge said:


> Sorry about that then, I looked through all pages of this particular sub forum but must have missed it.


You also missed that you contributed to that thread, too. In fact, the most recent post to it was yours!!!


----------



## emiellucifuge

Whoops!

Ive been away and am not up to date 

MI I would really recommend the chamber music if you havent yet got any. The 12th String Quartet is particularly famous as is the Dumky Trio. There are plenty more, such as the Bagatelles and also some solo piano pieces.

Weston! Only 6, 3, and 9?! IT is required listening to hear the 8th and particularly the 7th and a little know gem I would very much recommend you try the 4th as well.


----------



## Mirror Image

emiellucifuge said:


> MI, I would really recommend the chamber music if you havent yet got any. The 12th String Quartet is particularly famous as is the Dumky Trio. There are plenty more, such as the Bagatelles and also some solo piano pieces.


Ah, you see, as I have told many members here, I'm not much into chamber works. The only chamber works I have heard that made any kind of impression on me were those of Saint-Saens, Poulenc, Debussy, Ravel, and Bax. I just don't get to into chamber music for whatever reason. I find much more enjoyment in hearing what a composer can do for a whole orchestra.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Ok sorry, 
I generally prefer orchestral too but I can still enjoy chamber music a lot.


----------



## JAKE WYB

The *Water goblin* is my favourite dvorak piece - wonderfully colourful and gory

I always think too that he has the most consistently enjoyable symphonic cycle of anyone - every one to me is warm and fresh in its honesty and openness - right from 1 - though 8 and 7 are my favourites, 4 is a must lisdtenwork i always find once you get to know them all. but as is 3, and 5, and 2 and 1..


----------



## Jaime77

I just got the Slavonic Dances - I love that lively Slavic music. These are more than just showpieces. They are clever symphonic treatments of some great folk melodies and brilliant rhythms. This is very raw Dvorak.


----------



## World Violist

Piano quintet--wow. I got to see it live this summer, possibly my favorite piano quintet along with Schnittke's (which I also got to see live... trend?).


----------



## emiellucifuge

live = favorite?


----------



## Padawan

I'm fan of Antonín Dvořák just from listening to Symphony No. 9 and Slavonic Dances. This weekend I'm going to listen to other works in his repertoire.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Yes you most definitely should young Padawan 

Symphony No 7 (!), 8, 6 and 4. String Quartets 12, 14. Stabat Mater, Cello Concerto.


----------



## Padawan

emiellucifuge said:


> Symphony No 7 (!), 8, 6 and 4. String Quartets 12, 14. Stabat Mater, Cello Concerto.


I quite enjoyed listened to Symphony No. 7 today. I get to the rest later...not enough hours in a day.


----------



## tahnak

*Antonin Dvorak: Musician and Craftsman - Pastoral Symphony in G Major*

After his fortieth year, recognition on an international scale came to Dvorak in the 1880s. Brahms' assistance enabled his music to gain a firm foothold outside Bohemia, particularly in Germany. He had successful visits to England beginning in 1884. With the English tour gains, he was able to purchase land and a small country home for his family forty miles south of Prague. There, he composed his D Minor in 1885 and his G Major symphony in 1889. His D Minor was composed under the inspiration of Brahms' third. His seventh is a mature work of high and tragic intensity in the lineage of the German masters.
The G Major symphony is carefree and lyrical. I call it his 'Pastoral.' It is full of the folk spirit of the Czech countryside. He wrote this after he was admitted to the membership of the Emperor Franz Joseph's Czech Academy of Science, Literature and the Arts.
This symphony is constructed on a big scale for a large orchestra with a fully developed Allegro con Brio, an Adagio, a Scherzo with a waltz theme in the minor mode with a lilting Schubertian trio and a finale in variation form. Special attention has to be paid to the lovely and natural triplet upbeat and descending melodic sequence of the Adagio theme. The same theme becomes a graceful waltz in the third movement.
Like Mahler's Angelic Fourth, this symphony has its freedom from precedent of any kind. It is lyrically spontaneous though Dvorak laboured over his initial ideas and sketches, coming up with some of the finest touches and most salient melodic turns only after repeated attempts by trial and error. The sketch books clearly show the evolution of the theme that serves the finale variations of this G Major symphony. The piquant flute solo from the first movement's subject is split into two at the start of the finale with a brilliant fanfare in the trumpets. The theme is also presented in the lower strings with an occurence again of a descending melodic sequence. The sketch books of Dvorak as revealed by Jack Diether (Editor of Chord and Discord) show ten separate and different attempts to arrive at the right theme. Another good book that talks about these sketches is 'Antonin Dvorak - Musician and Craftsman' by Clapham.
When I first heard this symphony in the freshman year of my college in New Jersey in 1973, I was dumbstruck by the melodic beauty it possessed and how sublimely rustic it was. Very rarely, you are hit by pieces at first hearing. That was a rendition by the Boston Symphony under Charles Munch on RCA. I have not heard a better performance still. Other noteworthy readings are London Symphony under Istvan Kertesz, Philharmonia under Wolfgang Sawallisch, Hamburg Symphony under Charles Mackerras and Los Angeles Philharmonic under Zubin Mehta.


----------



## ScipioAfricanus

I think his Pastoral Symphony is actually his symphony no 5 in F major. The 8th is great but I see too many snow peaked mountain ranges in it.


----------



## Polednice

:O I always thought Dvorak's 'Pastoral' symphony would be his 6th. In fact, I was convinced until two minutes ago that it was already popularly known as the 'Pastoral'. Well, that's taught me something for the day.


----------



## emiellucifuge

The 5th is indeed the Pastoral!

I love the 8th as well and my love for Dvorak knows (hardly) no bounds..


----------



## Polednice

emiellucifuge said:


> The 5th is indeed the Pastoral!
> 
> I love the 8th as well and my love for Dvorak knows (hardly) no bounds..


But, of course, we all know the 7th is the best!


----------



## emiellucifuge

I do Agree!!


----------



## Polednice

emiellucifuge said:


> I do Agree!!


This thread has forced me into having an evening of Dvorak music now! It can't get much better than that  I was just looking at my collection of his music, and I think I should get some more of his chamber works - though, of course, I would never be without the sublime Piano Quintet No. 2.

I read in a magazine today that there is a new recording of his (far, far, far, far, far too neglected!) Piano Concerto - Martin Helmchen and the Strabourg PO. I don't know if it's supposed to be any good, but it's a top-priority listen!


----------



## Lukecash12

*New and improved Dvorak play list*

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B7DF548DD713C709

This is one of my favorite lists. And Wellesz will like this one too, of course.


----------



## emiellucifuge

And I do! And who is Wellesz?! And Thank you!


----------



## Lukecash12

emiellucifuge said:


> And I do! And who is Wellesz?! And Thank you!


Sorry, I actually had the name of someone else mixed up with you. It's funny that you showed up first.


----------



## emiellucifuge

Not really funny I sensed a Dvorak thread so came online.. its an inbuilt survival mechanism!


----------



## Lukecash12

emiellucifuge said:


> Not really funny I sensed a Dvorak thread so came online.. its an inbuilt survival mechanism!


Hmmm... I wish those kinds of instincts for Alkan.


----------



## martijn

Oh Dvorak, what a delightful composer he is! Shame he is so underrated. Whenever a composer is accesible, like Dvorak is, some classical snobs are thinking: "here must be something wrong, he must be superficial". But if I were to be send to a deserted island, and you would ask me to choose between Brahms and Dvorak, I think I would pick the latter. Yes, sure, Brahms is the greater composer, but Dvorak composes so effortless. Brahms himself recognized it when he said that Dvorak used secondary themes that he would have liked to use as primary themes. Some must haves are his piano quintet in A, his piano trio in f minor, opus 65 (definitely better than his Dumky trio), his last two symphonies and his Slavonic quartet and the last two string quartets.


----------



## clavichorder

martijn said:


> Brahms himself recognized it when he said that Dvorak used secondary themes that he would have liked to use as primary themes. .


I love that quote.


----------



## martijn

Yes I agree, even more so because Brahms was right, and humble enough to admit such a thing. Of course there are beautiful melodies in Brahms as well, but with Brahms you always get the feeling he has to struggle to get where he wants. I always feel the same about Brahms related to Dvorak as I feel about Beethoven related to Schubert. The B's are more "perfect" craftsmen, have a greater feeling of structure, but they aren't so spontaneous as Dvorak and Schubert are.


----------



## Polednice

martijn said:


> Of course there are beautiful melodies in Brahms as well, but with Brahms you always get the feeling he has to struggle to get where he wants.


I don't think that's true. Brahms' melodies are totally sublime, and don't feel anywhere near as forced as Beethoven's. I do agree with your praising of Dvorak though.


----------



## martijn

I didn't say Brahms' melodies are not sublime. It's just the overall impression of his music, it strikes me more in his transition passages by the way.


----------



## neoshredder

Great composer. Listened to his 9th today. Amazingly uplifting.


----------



## Operadowney

neoshredder said:


> Great composer. Listened to his 9th today. Amazingly uplifting.


I did the same - watched the performance with Dudamel for the Pope on Youtube. Incredible. First time I'd ever heard it!


----------



## Lunasong

I heard Dvorak's symphonic poem "The Golden Spinning Wheel" first time today and truly enjoyed it; inspired me to look up some info about the work. The review below states that some thought the work is too long; it clocks in at about 25-28 minutes.





Czech fairy tale upon which the work is based.
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=fillmore&book=czech&story=wheel 
A gruesome tale as good fairy tales are.

Source: http://www.classicalarchives.com/work/159400.html#tvf=tracks&tv=about
The The Golden Spinning Wheel, or _Zlatý kolovrat_, Op. 109, is the third of Antonín Dvorák's four 1896 orchestral tone poems on subjects taken from the poetry of Karel Jaromír Erben. Its plot, put simply, is quite ludicrous; that Dvorák should succeed in making a fine piece of music from it is a testament to the notion, oft-stated and oftener-demonstrated by composers throughout the nineteenth century, that a sensible plot line is by no means necessarily the best choice for a program-music subject. Dvorák sketched The Golden Spinning Wheel during January and February of 1896 and orchestrated it some weeks later. At its premiere in October 1896, Dvorák's critics and colleagues alike found the work too long; as a result, a number of cuts concocted by Dvorák's friend and son-in-law Josef Suk are generally made, not necessarily to the work's betterment.

Erben's _Zlatý kolovrat_ tells the tale of a king who falls in love with a simple peasant girl. After he has invited her to his castle, her evil stepmother kills her, cuts off her feet and hands and removes her eyes, and substitutes her own daughter-who is apparently the stepdaughter's spitting image-in her place. Unwittingly, the king weds the evil daughter, but, fortunately, an old man stumbles across the body of the king's beloved. He sends his young lad up to the castle three times-to exchange three items, including a golden spinning wheel, for the hands, feet, and eyes of the dead daughter-and then proceeds to resurrect the king's beloved. The golden spinning wheel turns out to be the stepmother's and daughter's undoing: when the king's new bride begins to spin, the magic spinning wheel spins out the awful truth. The king seeks out his true beloved in the forest and the two live happily ever after, while the evil stepmother and daughter are eaten by wolves.

Dvorák's treatment of this material is very free indeed. Much of the music of The Golden Spinning Wheel really does spin, starting with the rolling cello triplets of the very opening (which are presumably intended to reproduce the gallop of the king's horse). There is a pleasing economy to the way that the horn fanfare idea that announces the king at the opening takes on new shapes as the work unfolds; the most colorful of these is the harshly dissonant version in parallel seventh chords (over an uncooperative pedal-point) that depicts part of the king's encounter with the evil stepmother and her daughter. Dvorák pulls out all the stops at the end, when the violins soar up to the heights of the reunited lovers' passion; in the final bars, as the king's fanfare is given a robust _Allegro ma non troppo_ treatment, one can almost hear them riding off into the sunset.


----------



## mtmailey

DVORAK symphonies are great nice and long also i like hid cello concerto ,piano concerto & violin concertos.But some people did not like his music which is a shame!!!The 9th symphony is his best.


----------



## oogabooha

Dvorák's 8th is my favorite symphony of all time, and he is definitely my favorite composer. There's something about the way that he works emotion into wonderful melodies that I will never get tired of. His Sonata in F Major for Violin/Piano is so incredibly great


----------



## TheBamf

His 9th has been receiving quite a lot of my attention. It is so alive, and even though it has very romantic sensabilities it does not go overboard and bombard you with an otherwise exceptionally cool motif.


----------



## mtmailey

TheBamf said:


> His 9th has been receiving quite a lot of my attention. It is so alive, and even though it has very romantic sensabilities it does not go overboard and bombard you with an otherwise exceptionally cool motif.


I find it to be a mature work i would say it is almost perfect.


----------



## nikola

I like Dvorak's style of composing. But what do you think are his best works? Instead ofcourse New World Symphony which is probably so far my favorite smyphony ever. 
I also like his 'String Quartet in F Major 'American', especially 2nd. 'Lento' movement. I also like his 'Serenade for Strings', especially 'Tempo di Valse'. 
Humoresque too. 

But I'm not too much familiar with his work, but lately I'm listening to more of his music, so I'm interested what are your favorite Dvorak's pieces?


----------



## Carpenoctem

nikola said:


> But I'm not too much familiar with his work, but lately I'm listening to more of his music, so I'm interested what are your favorite Dvorak's pieces?


Listen to his Cello Concerto, for me, it's one of the best Cello Concertos ever written


----------



## Sonata

I agree the cello concerto is quite wonderful. Nikola, I would also recommend his piano and violin concertos. Some of his slavonic dances are nice, and on the heavier side of his works, the Requiem and beautiful Stabat Mater. And do make sure you listen to his "Song to the Moon" aria from Rusalka. Or the whole work if you're into opera.


----------



## nikola

Thanks for suggestions. I'll probably have to listen to it all


----------



## emiellucifuge

The cello concerto has a claim to be the concerto written IMO. His violin concerto is also nice.
his last 5 symphonies are all great, I particularly like 5 and 7. He has one operatic masterpiece; Rusalka, and a further slew of chamber masterpieces including piano trios 3&4, quartets such as the American, the Slavic and the A minor one, the piano quintet.


----------



## nikola

I noticed that the older he was, the music was becoming much better. His early work seems somehow generic and boring. But same goes for Beethoven and Mozart IMO. The older they were, the work was more cohesive, melody themes were stronger and more original and there were more depth in music. 
Sometimes it is the other way for some musicians... they are becoming more boring and generic when they're becoming older, but I've noticed that more with some pop-film-new age composers than with classical composers.


----------



## Taneyev

All his chamber, except maybe his very first string quartets, are just beautiful, beggining with the unknown and unplayed string quintet op.1. I dislike only his long, tedious and "bruckerian" third string quartet.I've all his chamber works, and many lovely pieces for piano that nobody ever plays.


----------



## nikola

Odnoposoff said:


> All his chamber, except maybe his very first string quartets, are just beautiful, beggining with the unknown and unplayed string quintet op.1. I dislike only his long, tedious and "bruckerian" third string quartet.I've all his chamber works, and many lovely pieces for piano that nobody ever plays.


I'm just listening to String Quartet Op. 3. You're right... it's quite long, boring and hard to listen, especialy 1st Allegro con Brio almost half an hour long. 
But you're right. His later work is really mostly beautiful and inspired.


----------



## Vaneyes

As many probably did, I imprinted with the Philips Colin Davis "New World" with ACO. That first appreciation was probably the peak for this composer. That doesn't say a hell of a lot, does it? Especially, when so many hold him near and dear...even having him walk with the giants.

FWIW, my Dvorak CDs...

Cello Concerto - Fournier/Szell (DG)
Violin Concerto - Suwanai/Fischer (Philips)
Symphony 5 - Oslo PO/Jansons (EMI)
Symphonies 6 & 8 - VPO/Chung (DG)
Symphony 7 - NYPO/Bernstein (Sony)
Symphony 9, Water Goblin - ACO/Harnoncourt (Teldec)
String Sextet in A, Op. 48 B80 - Chang et al (EMI)
Piano Quintet in A major, Op. 81 - Nash Ensemble (Virgin)
String Quartets, Opp. 96, 106 - Stamitz Qt.(Bayer)
Piano Trio "Dumky" - Nash Ensemble (Virgin)


----------



## Arsakes

I'm listening to his Symphony No.1 right now. The first movement was so energetic and great. The second is a very beautiful Adagio and 3rd and 4th movements are also very good. I still don't get why not so many like it (?)

I claim that it's even better than Brahms Symphony No.1.


----------



## Arsakes

nikola said:


> I'm just listening to String Quartet Op. 3. You're right... it's quite long, boring and hard to listen, especialy 1st Allegro con Brio almost half an hour long.
> But you're right. His later work is really mostly beautiful and inspired.


I don't like No.3 too.

His best string Quartets are #10~14. Also #1,5 and 8. Specially I love No.13 and 14 and as you may know his most famous is no.12 "American".


----------



## PetrB

SamGuss said:


> I listen to New World just about everyday myself. I am convinced though I now need more copies. I have Harnoncourt's version and I plan on getting Karajan's version sometime this month. Down the road I am thinking I want Neumann's and Bernstein's versions as well.
> 
> I am definately going to seek out his Czech Suite now as well - thank you for the heads up about it!


You need, imho, his string quartets, a really strong suite of his which often is overlooked....


----------



## Ukko

Vaneyes said:


> As many probably did, I imprinted with the Philips Colin Davis "New World" with ACO. That first appreciation was probably the peak for this composer. That doesn't say a hell of a lot, does it? Especially, when so many hold him near and dear...even having him walk with the giants.
> 
> FWIW, my Dvorak CDs...
> 
> Cello Concerto - Fournier/Szell (DG)
> Violin Concerto - Suwanai/Fischer (Philips)
> Symphony 5 - Oslo PO/Jansons (EMI)
> Symphonies 6 & 8 - VPO/Chung (DG)
> Symphony 7 - NYPO/Bernstein (Sony)
> Symphony 9, Water Goblin - ACO/Harnoncourt (Teldec)
> String Sextet in A, Op. 48 B80 - Chang et al (EMI)
> Piano Quintet in A major, Op. 81 - Nash Ensemble (Virgin)
> String Quartets, Opp. 96, 106 - Stamitz Qt.(Bayer)
> Piano Trio "Dumky" - Nash Ensemble (Virgin)


FWIW, in my highly arbitrary opinion, some of the performances in your collection are the wrong ones. Which _could_ explain your lack of enthusiasm. More likely, you being a geezer, you have heard and rejected the 'right' ones. Such is life, eh?


----------



## Vaneyes

Hilltroll72 said:


> FWIW, in my highly arbitrary opinion, some of the performances in your collection are the wrong ones. Which _could_ explain your lack of enthusiasm. More likely, you being a geezer, you have heard and rejected the 'right' ones. Such is life, eh?


Too vague, too vague. Go out on the limb.


----------



## Novelette

I love Dvorak's music.

Unfortunately, his music has been burdened by an unfortunate booklet that I read. In the symphony series that I have [Kubelik], the accompanying booklet states that Dvorak was not a sophisticated composer, nor was he familiar with the finer details of music theory--that he was a "practical musician" not a "technical musician". While it may be a true opinion, it would be false to call his music simplistic, in fact, his music was masterful! But the statement has weighed heavily on me and has given me an undue skepticism of Dvorak's music. It's difficult to purge from my mind, unfortunately, but I'm doing my best.


----------



## Vaneyes

Novelette said:


> I love Dvorak's music.
> 
> Unfortunately, his music has been burdened by an unfortunate booklet that I read. In the symphony series that I have [Kubelik], the accompanying booklet states that Dvorak was not a sophisticated composer, nor was he familiar with the finer details of music theory--that he was a "practical musician" not a "technical musician". While it may be a true opinion, it would be false to call his music simplistic, in fact, his music was masterful! But the statement has weighed heavily on me and has given me an undue skepticism of Dvorak's music. It's difficult to purge from my mind, unfortunately, but I'm doing my best.


They said that about Bruckner, too, and Schumann, and others. Blah, blah, and blah. There are even some who diss Vivaldi and Mozart on similar grounds. Those dissers should be drawn and quartered. Just kidding.


----------



## neoshredder

nikola said:


> I noticed that the older he was, the music was becoming much better. His early work seems somehow generic and boring. But same goes for Beethoven and Mozart IMO. The older they were, the work was more cohesive, melody themes were stronger and more original and there were more depth in music.
> Sometimes it is the other way for some musicians... they are becoming more boring and generic when they're becoming older, but I've noticed that more with some pop-film-new age composers than with classical composers.


Beethoven was great throughout his career. And yeah Mozart had some duds no doubt.


----------



## Wandering

^ I second Vaneyes. Don't believe everything you read. I've made the same mistake. Critics and agendas often go hand in hand, or foot in mouth.


----------



## Kogami

Get the Fritz Reiner / Chicago Philharmonic recording. It's incredible.


----------



## clavichorder

neoshredder said:


> Beethoven was great throughout his career. And yeah Mozart had some duds no doubt.


I hope you know, my friend, that this view is subjective and easily reversed. In my view, I have not heard a "dud" by Mozart, but I have heard academic sounding Mozart, never dud though. Beethoven on the other hand, I find some things pretty tiresome, others great. Notice my language, like "I find," and such. Also, "tiresome" is qualitative and reflects an opinion, and "academic" is less qualitative and more neutral but still reflects an opinion, and effectively waters down the harshness of "dud". It is my subjective way of shaping my defense for Mozart. I think that with titans like Mozart and Beethoven, it really can't be boiled down to anything remotely objective.

Re novelette; statements like that have definitely clouded my mind with composers in ways that I have later finally accepted as unnecessary and even untrue. I hate when I read things like that and they mess up my appreciation of a composer for years.


----------



## neoshredder

I think most will agree that Beethoven was a more consistent Composer than Mozart. Only Mozart's Late Works are thought of at the highest level while Beethoven wrote great works almost from the start. Heck I would rather have Stamitz's Symphonies than early Mozart Symphonies.


----------



## bigshot

You're only talking about symphonies. There's a *lot* more to Mozart than just symphonies.


----------



## clavichorder

nvm....deleted


----------



## Novelette

Clavichorder, it's terribly unfortunate that a single phrase can ruin a person's appreciation of a composer. Surely, Dvorak was not incredibly fluent in the technical areas of music theory, but his works are outstandingly inventive and laden with interesting harmonic structures [not to mention catchy melodies!]. But if any fact should speak [for me anyway] to the great credit of Dvorak, it's Brahms' admiration. His very exacting aesthetics should always remind me that if he saw something to laud in Dvorak's music, then he certainly could never be the mediocre hack that said unfortunate booklet implied.

And I have to agree with you, too, on your statement that some of Beethoven's works are tedious. Mostly his early works:

Quintet in C Major, Op. 29; Septet in E Flat, Op. 20 [I can't believe that it was so popular during Beethoven's lifetime!]; Quintet for Piano and Wind Quartet in E Flat, Op. 16; Sextet for 2 Horns and String Quartet in E Flat, Op. 81b; 24 Variations on Righini's Arietta "Venni Amore", WoO 65; most of the violin sonatas and piano trios; all of the string trios; the first and fourth symphonies; and especially Octet in E Flat, Op. 103.

Did you ever listen to his Elegischer Gesang, Op. 118? Wistful and airy.

Bundeslied, Op. 122 sounds to me like the perfect, upbeat German drinking song.


----------



## neoshredder

bigshot said:


> You're only talking about symphonies. There's a *lot* more to Mozart than just symphonies.


I'll gladly take what Beethoven did in other areas than Mozart. And Beethoven's Early Works are some of my favorite music from him. If anything, his late works get a little tedious. His middle period is my favorite.


----------



## KenOC

Novelette said:


> And I have to agree with you, too, on your statement that some of Beethoven's works are tedious. Mostly his early works:
> 
> Quintet in C Major, Op. 29; Septet in E Flat, Op. 20 [I can't believe that it was so popular during Beethoven's lifetime!]; Quintet for Piano and Wind Quartet in E Flat, Op. 16; Sextet for 2 Horns and String Quartet in E Flat, Op. 81b; 24 Variations on Righini's Arietta "Venni Amore", WoO 65; most of the violin sonatas and piano trios; all of the string trios; the first and fourth symphonies; and especially Octet in E Flat, Op. 103.


Well, a couple of these aren't first-rate Beethoven. But the rest? Hoo boy!


----------



## neoshredder

Loving Dvorak's String Quartets. I almost recommend his String Quartets over his Symphonies similar to Schubert.


----------



## OboeKnight

My first Dvorak experience was when my orchestra played Carnival Overture this season. Such a bombastic and thrilling piece! It was so much fun to play, aaand we are reprising it for our joint concert with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra! I have a recording of us playing it at the last concert, I'll try and post it here 

Also, just finished listening to Dvorak's 9th for probably the 6th time in 2 days.


----------



## Xaltotun

Thus far I've been lukewarm to Dvorak's music - not cold, that is; I've liked everything I've heard from him, but I haven't been really enthusiastic about anything. Now this has changed when I heard his Stabat Mater. What a magnificient piece! I must hear his Requiem and Te Deum, as well. I guess I prefer his "weightier" side, then!


----------



## Olias

Xaltotun said:


> Thus far I've been lukewarm to Dvorak's music - not cold, that is; I've liked everything I've heard from him, but I haven't been really enthusiastic about anything. Now this has changed when I heard his Stabat Mater. What a magnificient piece! I must hear his Requiem and Te Deum, as well. I guess I prefer his "weightier" side, then!


Ah, then you'll love the cello concerto. Its about as weighty and poignant as it gets.


----------



## CyrilWashbrook

Olias said:


> Ah, then you'll love the cello concerto. Its about as weighty and poignant as it gets.


Indeed. I've listened to it hundreds of times (notable in consideration of the fact that I hadn't heard *of* the piece until late 2011, when a friend mentioned to me in passing that it was among her favourites) and it hasn't lost any of its effect on me. It's probably my favourite piece of music.

I'm also a big fan of his symphonies (I regularly listen to 5, 7, 8 and 9) and the Slavonic Dances, among other works.


----------



## Xaltotun

Thanks guys! Fact is, I've listened to the cello concerto a couple of times - but it's always been background music for some activity or other. I've never *really* listened to it. That must change, I'll go listen to it straight away.


----------



## userfume

Symphony no. 8 with Kubelik = bliss


----------



## Olias

Xaltotun said:


> Thanks guys! Fact is, I've listened to the cello concerto a couple of times - but it's always been background music for some activity or other. I've never *really* listened to it. That must change, I'll go listen to it straight away.


Read the story behind it as well. It adds a lot of depth to the work:

http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/?fuseaction=composition&composition_id=3746


----------



## Op.123

His piano concerto is very under-ratted


----------



## Novelette

Burroughs said:


> His piano concerto is very under-rated


Agreed. To tell you the truth, until recently, I never even knew of the piano concerto. I don't usually associate Dvorak with piano music, except for some majorly notable works [piano quintet, piano trios, etc.].

It deserves more frequent hearing.


----------



## Nevohteeb

Yes, I love his piano concerto. On cd-Firkusny, Moravec, Richter. But, I love his piano trios, especially his F-, Op. 90.The violin part in the 3rd movement is exquisite. To me, Dvorak, was like Schubert, melodies tumbled out of his head, like a waterfall. There isn't anything that he wrote, that I don't love.


----------



## Ravndal

Novelette said:


> Agreed. To tell you the truth, until recently, I never even knew of the piano concerto. I don't usually associate Dvorak with piano music, except for some majorly notable works [piano quintet, piano trios, etc.].
> 
> It deserves more frequent hearing.


Woops. Don't forget his Humoresques op 101. They are great!  Not a big fan of his piano concerto though.


----------



## elgar's ghost

Dvorak's complete works for piano duet are worth looking into and won't break the bank either - the original piano versions of the two sets of Slavonic Dances, the set of miniatures called 'Legends' and the descriptive group of pieces 'From the Bohemian Forest' all fit nicely onto two discs.


----------



## JKra

I like all of his works. Recently I listened to his humoresques. They're very fascinating. His waltzes are as well. I'm gonna have to stop now, or I'd go infinitely long.


----------



## Kat

This will sound odd. 

I owe Dvorak my current first chair first violin spot in the BYSO. His piece got me my audition and acceptance letter.


----------



## Vesteralen

Kat said:


> This will sound odd.
> 
> I owe Dvorak my current first chair first violin spot in the BYSO. His piece got me my audition and acceptance letter.


"Humoresque", or what? Care to share?


----------



## Virharmonic

His Requiem and Sabbath Matter are simply mesmerising. Sadly I agree that the 9th has been overplayed, but yeah. His works are often breath taking.


----------



## schuberkovich

Dvorak is an incredible composer. There was a period a while ago when I listened to the first movement of his American Quartet repeatedly for about 2 months. I think, as a single movement, it has the greatest number of musical ideas out of any I've heard. One could build a movement entirely from any of the single themes found in the movement. The way he links these all together effortlessly is also something to marvel at.





The other movements, especially the 2nd and 4th, are also great.


----------



## Ondine

schuberkovich said:


> Dvorak is an incredible composer. [...]


Agree @shuberkovich. As a string quartet lover, he is one of my favourites but not only because his string quartets but his entire oeuvre from his nine symphonies up to his pieces for piano at four hands and his bagatelles. And yes, I regularly have 'Dvorak phases' for months.


----------



## neoshredder

Ondine said:


> Agree @shuberkovich. As a string quartet lover, he is one of my favourites but not only because his string quartets but his entire oeuvre from his nine symphonies up to his pieces for piano at four hands and his bagatelles. And yes, I regularly have 'Dvorak phases' for months.


So you do like some Romanticism then.


----------



## schuberkovich

Ondine said:


> Agree @shuberkovich. As a string quartet lover, he is one of my favourites but not only because his string quartets but his entire oeuvre from his nine symphonies up to his pieces for piano at four hands and his bagatelles. And yes, I regularly have 'Dvorak phases' for months.


Me too! Along with quartets 12 & 14, I love symphonies 8 & 9 and the cello concerto the most. Symphony 8 in particular is one of my favourite symphonies - it is so effortless and melodic, a pure joy to listen to.


----------



## Ondine

schuberkovich said:


> Me too! Along with quartets 12 & 14, I love symphonies 8 & 9 and the cello concerto the most. Symphony 8 in particular is one of my favourite symphonies - it is so effortless and melodic, a pure joy to listen to.


Give another chance to the 'middle' quartets: Nos. 4 though 10. Those are amazing. He also wrote a quintet with a double bass (Op. 77). I'm sure you will love it


----------



## Ondine

neoshredder said:


> So you do like some Romanticism then.


Ups... you discovered my dark side, @neo


----------



## schuberkovich

Ondine said:


> Give another chance to the 'middle' quartets: Nos. 4 though 10. Those are amazing. He also wrote a quintet with a double bass (Op. 77). I'm sure you will love it


I will give them a listen. Thanks for the recommendation.


----------



## Avey

schuberkovich said:


> Me too! Along with quartets 12 & 14, I love symphonies 8 & 9 and the cello concerto the most. Symphony 8 in particular is one of my favourite symphonies - it is so effortless and melodic, a pure joy to listen to.


Dvorak's chamber music in general is overshadowed by his Orchestral works. It's unfortunate, because behind Schubert and Beethoven, I don't believe anyone had a better grasp of the quartet form than Dvorak. Looking past that perfect "American" work, No. 14 is an absolute gem. The major/minor transitions are _sooooo_ pleasing.


----------



## Vaneyes

I think we've got a Dvorak love-in.


----------



## adam

John Cage mentioned an important difference for him between music and sound, which I found really relatable. This difference was that the non-musical sound experience made him feel as though the sound was acting, whereas for music, the sense was more that someone was talking. When I heard Dvorak's "American" quartet, I really felt like someone was talking.


----------



## Wicked_one

I think that his Requiem ranks with the best and it should receive more love from audiences. I haven't heard it live, but I would love that. His Dies Irae always makes me shiver. His Requiem sounds... refreshing. Yeah, refreshing music for the dead. 

And while other Requiems tend to kinda bore me as the interesting parts go by, this never happened with Dvorak's.


----------



## Shibooty

I love his "Scherzo Capriccioso, Op. 66", as performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Paavo Järvi.


----------



## Vaneyes

Shibooty said:


> I love his "Scherzo Capriccioso, Op. 66", as performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Paavo Järvi.


Good piece. I have Oslo/Jansons'. :tiphat:


----------



## Vaneyes

Tom Service looks at *Dvorak Symphony 8*, and awkwardly does not recommend VPO/Chung's recording. 

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/jan/07/symphony-guide-dvorak-eighth-tom-service


----------



## hpowders

My favorite performance of the Cello Concerto is with Gregor Piatigorsky and Charles Munch leading the Boston Symphony.
An oldie but very goodie!


----------



## neoshredder

Dvorak is awesome. What can I say.


----------



## Itullian

Serenade for strings


----------



## nightscape

After listening to the piano duets version, I now have the orchestral Slavonic Dances in my car. Good riding to and from work music! Mackerras/Czech Phil


----------



## mtmailey

neoshredder said:


> Dvorak is awesome. What can I say.


I say that he does not get enough credit he has great music though.


----------



## neoshredder

mtmailey said:


> I say that he does not get enough credit he has great music though.


Yep his String Quartets are where it's at as great as his Orchestral music is.


----------



## elgar's ghost

I'm rather fond of some of the song cycles - I've a Supraphon disc featuring 10 Biblical Songs op. 99, 7 Gipsy Melodies op. 55 and 8 Love Songs op. 83. His songs do seem to go under the radar somewhat compared to his other output but I think they are worth championing if the ones I've mentioned above are anything to go by.


----------



## Xiansheng

> Yep his String Quartets are where it's at as great as his Orchestral music is.


Dvorak contributed good chamber music all around, including several great pieces for piano-based chamber arrangements.


----------



## mtmailey

He HAS GREAT CONCERTOS for violin,piano, & cello,his VODNIK is great to hear.


----------



## hpowders

I would recommend the cello concerto with Gregor Piatigorsky and the Boston Symphony conducted by Charles Munch.
I've never heard a better performance.


----------



## Bulldog

hpowders said:


> I would recommend the cello concerto with Gregor Piatigorsky and the Boston Symphony conducted by Charles Munch.
> I've never heard a better performance.


You might want to take a look at your reply #144.


----------



## hpowders

Bulldog said:


> You might want to take a look at your reply #144.


I wrote this already? That's how it starts....

I bet it's not the first time either!

Yup!! I just looked. There it was!!! At least I'm consistent! 

Sorry about that!


----------



## Bulldog

Nothing to be sorry about. You do a lot of postings, so it figures that you might forget one now and then.


----------



## SergeOfArniVillage

I've never even listened to Dvorak's "New World" symphony. I know, I know ... Shameful. Most shameful. But I will right this wrong eventually. Again, when it comes to symphonies and orchestral works, there's an awful lot I haven't listened to <_>


----------



## hpowders

SergeOfArniVillage said:


> I've never even listened to Dvorak's "New World" symphony. I know, I know ... Shameful. Most shameful. But I will right this wrong eventually. Again, when it comes to symphonies and orchestral works, there's an awful lot I haven't listened to <_>


I envy you. Nothing like the passion of new discoveries!


----------



## hpowders

Bulldog said:


> Nothing to be sorry about. You do a lot of postings, so it figures that you might forget one now and then.


Thank you! Could have been worse. Posting 2 different performances as "the best I've ever heard."


----------



## Nevohteeb

In my humble opinion, there is not too many melodic lines, that beat the exquisitely beautiful violin part in the 3rd movement of his piano trio in F-, Op. 65.


----------



## samurai

SergeOfArniVillage said:


> I've never even listened to Dvorak's "New World" symphony. I know, I know ... Shameful. Most shameful. But I will right this wrong eventually. Again, when it comes to symphonies and orchestral works, there's an awful lot I haven't listened to <_>


Join the club!


----------



## CyrilWashbrook

Wasn't sure where else to put this, but it was interesting to read the overview of recorded performances of the cello concerto contained in Jan Smaczny's book about the work. Over time, there has been a clear shift toward playing the piece slower (something that I had noticed when scouting out various recordings, but it was interesting to have the details outlined all in one place). Performances in the first half of the twentieth century adhered closely to Dvorak's tempo markings in the score and tended to last about 35 minutes; this changed noticeably in the 1960s and 1970s, when Rostropovich partnered with Karajan and Giulini for recordings lasting 41 and 43 minutes respectively (the latter is my personal favourite). Performances of about that length are now, of course, very common. There are some that stretch out to well over three quarters of an hour.

Smaczny concludes: "The purpose of this brief examination of performance practice is not to excoriate the inflationary tendencies of performances in the last thirty years. There are, of course, enormous virtues in all of the recordings cited above, not least Rostropovich's wonderfully poetic reading of 1969. But as the Concerto has passed into the continuum it has certainly grown bigger than Dvorak imagined and perhaps intended. Knowledge of the composer's homesickness and the work's connection with Josefina have, perhaps, begun to condition approaches to the work. As it prepares to begin life in the new millennium, it would be a pity if the clarity of line in the work were subverted by too great an emphasis on its sentimental history."


----------



## Nevohteeb

*Dvorak New World Symphony*

To anyone who wants to hear the Dvorak, New World Symphony, and doesn't have a recording, go to Instant Encore (Google), sign up, and listen to practically any composer, who ever lived, and was recorded. On your left at top, is composer, work, etc. further down, check complete works. Find Dvorak, and then work, the symphony #9, and then listen to one to 10 different versions. Then, if you like it, you go to Arkiv Records, and pick your favourite orchestra, and order it. That's what I usually do, with his Chamber Music. I just got a delightful performance,of his piano trios #3 & 4 with Wu Han, David Finkel, and Philip Setzer,(Lincoln Center Chamber Music Society musicians), on Artistled (which is a Lincoln Center Recording Co.Just go to Lincoln Center Chamber Music Society Site, for their recordings.


----------



## CyrilWashbrook

I recently came across a couple of quite impressive videos of performances of the cello concerto. The first is by the young Swedish cellist Jakob Koranyi with the Göteborgs Symfoniker in a concert last year. Koranyi has uploaded the video of the third movement.

The other one - a more sentimental reading - is by Daniel Müller-Schott, who is performing it quite regularly with various orchestras this year. One of his performances with the DR SymfoniOrkestret in March is on the DR website (until 13 May) and also on YouTube.


----------



## schuberkovich

For all you Cello Concerto fans, above is the lied which the piece constantly refers to (the favourite of his sister-in-law). It's quite difficult to find a proper recording in its original song form (lots of transcriptions available). It is incredibly beautiful.


----------



## violadude

I just recently found out that if you have ignored Dvorak's tone poems up until this point then you have been missing out. 

I listened to Noon Witch and The Water Goblin and I thought they were awesome.

Another piece I love by Dvorak that I think is highly underrated is Symphonic Variations. I played this in the Tacoma Youth Symphony years ago and become one of my favorite pieces we ever played in there. Not only are the variations awesome but I love the unique modal theme.


----------



## Avey

Was unfamiliar with the Symphonic Variations. Water Goblin is fantastic. Get Disney on that one.


----------



## Brad

Hi there Antonin I love your eighth symphony its pretty sweet I appreciate it


----------



## Lukecash12

violadude said:


> I just recently found out that if you have ignored Dvorak's tone poems up until this point then you have been missing out.
> 
> I listened to Noon Witch and The Water Goblin and I thought they were awesome.
> 
> Another piece I love by Dvorak that I think is highly underrated is Symphonic Variations. I played this in the Tacoma Youth Symphony years ago and become one of my favorite pieces we ever played in there. Not only are the variations awesome but I love the unique modal theme.


His piano concerto is also highly underrated. There was another version of it but the original has gone back into vogue. I think maybe people have realized by now that the piano concerto doesn't have to be all about the soloist. Personally, I think it's fantastic and the second movement is simple but brilliant much in the same way Schubert can be.


----------



## Xaltotun

I used to think of Dvorak as "a cute rural Brahms" and that was problematic - as much as I love Brahms, "a cute rural Brahms" is just disgusting, it doesn't add up. But then I realized that Dvorak is actually "a cute rural Liszt", and now, this one actually sounds meaningful! It's the tone poems and the choral works that have drawn me into his music, much more than his symphonies or concertos. Now, I suspect that I'd really like his operas - dare I hope that there's a tiny bit of "a cute rural Wagner" in him..?


----------



## OldFashionedGirl

I'm in Dvorak mood. I have been listening some of his less know works. I think he is a underrated composer. He wrote beautiful and inspiring music. Many of his works don't have the recognition they deserve, for example his tone poems.


----------



## nightscape

The peformance frequency of his tone poems, and their overall popularity, seem to be on the rise recently. Just my impression.


----------



## jim prideaux

I would like to imagine that Dvorak would be particularly happy to learn that his countrymen Belohlavek and the Czech Phil have recorded such a marvellous set of the symphonies and concertos-I believe he would also be pleased to learn that some of us hold his early symphonies in such high regard!


----------



## Mandryka

What do people think about the op 18 intermezzo? Keep it in the op 77 double bass quintet or comply with Dvorak's wishes and throw it out?


----------



## Guest

A recent article here for fans of Dvorak's 9th :
http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...ide-dvorak-9th-new-world-symphony-tom-service


----------



## elgar's ghost

Mandryka said:


> What do people think about the op 18 intermezzo? Keep it in the op 77 double bass quintet or comply with Dvorak's wishes and throw it out?


That's the piece that later became the Nocturne for Strings? I suppose including it in its original form would then make the quintet a five movement work with two slow movements. Perhaps the composer was worried it might upset the balance by making it kind of palindromic (I assume the scherzo would be in the middle?). I'll have to hear the work with the intermezzo reinstalled before I can comment.


----------



## Mandryka

elgars ghost said:


> That's the piece that later became the Nocturne for Strings? I suppose including it in its original form would then make the quintet a five movement work with two slow movements. Perhaps the composer was worried it might upset the balance by making it kind of palindromic (I assume the scherzo would be in the middle?). I'll have to hear the work with the intermezzo reinstalled before I can comment.


I just put such a recording on symphonyshare, from The Boston Symohony Chamber Players. It's very good - send me a PM if you want it and you can't get it from there and I'll upload the files. To me, the intermezzo sounds wrong.


----------



## Vaneyes

TalkingHead said:


> A recent article here for fans of Dvorak's 9th :
> http://www.theguardian.com/music/classicalmusicandopera


Thanks. Service, in his "New World" introspection, left out some outstanding suggested recs., such as ACO/Harnoncourt, VPO/Kertesz, BPO/HvK (EMI), NYPO/LB.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/to...ide-dvorak-9th-new-world-symphony-tom-service


----------



## Haydn man

Dvorak is a composer I have been listening to recently and have really enjoyed symphonies 5 6 7 and 8
The serenade for strings has long been a favourite along with the cello concerto
Some great music here


----------



## hpowders

I'm sorry Brahms never wrote a solo cello concerto. He may have given Dvorak a good run for the money.


----------



## Kopachris

It's not midnight local time yet, I'm not late. Happy birthday, Antonin!


----------



## Xaltotun

hpowders said:


> I'm sorry Brahms never wrote a solo cello concerto. He may have given Dvorak a good run for the money.


I think it would have been a job of the most difficult order, even for a master or concerto like Brahms!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I think Brahms once said about Dvorak that his contemporaries would do good to make music out of his scrapped pages.


----------



## violadude

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think Brahms once said about Dvorak that his contemporaries would do good to make music out of his scrapped pages.


I thought Brahms liked Dvorak...


----------



## hpowders

That IS Brahms liking Dvorak. He's paying Dvorak a very generous compliment.


----------



## KenOC

I once read that Brahms, on hearing Dvorak's cello concerto, said "If I'd known you could do that, I'd have written one of those!" At least I think I read it -- hard to tell sometimes these days.


----------



## hpowders

KenOC said:


> I once read that Brahms, on hearing Dvorak's cello concerto, said "If I'd known you could do that, I'd have written one of those!" At least I think I read it -- hard to tell sometimes these days.


I've written, perhaps it was on the Brahms Composers thread, that I really wished Brahms would have written a cello concerto.
He wrote so beautifully for the lower strings.
It would have been extraordinary, I'm sure.

Someone should have told him, "Well, instead of posing for photos staring out some stupid window that Matthew Brady or some German equivalent photographer takes two hours to expose, you could have already written 10 pages of that cello concerto!!"

I guess his heart really wasn't in it. Still, we have the lovely cello solo from the third movement of the second piano concerto to help us imagine what might have been.


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> I've written, perhaps it was on the Brahms Composers thread, that I really wished Brahms would have written a cello concerto.
> He wrote so beautifully for the lower strings.
> It would have been extraordinary, I'm sure.
> 
> Someone should have told him, "Well, instead of posing for photos staring out some stupid window that Matthew Brady takes two hours to expose, you could have written 10 pages of that cello concerto!!"


Maybe Brahms was so intimidated by Beethoven that he was afraid of being compared even with something that Beethoven _didn't _write!


----------



## hpowders

KenOC said:


> Maybe Brahms was so intimidated by Beethoven that he was afraid of being compared even with something that Beethoven _didn't _write!


He would have given Dvorak a real run for his money, I'm sure. He loved writing for the lower strings. Perhaps if he lived another few years and for the right commission...


----------



## arpeggio

*New World Symphony*

Although I have heard the New World on a few occasions in a live performance, last Tuesday at our orchestra rehearsal is the first time I have ever performed it.

I have the following reaction:

WOW!

I was hearing things as far as the cyclical nature of the work that I have never noticed before.


----------



## Avey

I love it when you hear a work that you think you have heard so many times, every little note, every single moment, and then you see it live or hear a new recording, and new things appear. A new love and passion presents itself.

_New World Symphony_, along with all *Dvorak's* later works -- _Cello Concerto_, final three quartets, Op. 97 quintet, _Goblin_, _Noon Witch -- comprises extraordinary stuff, in orchestration, setting, tone, and passion. No matter how cliche or popular these works may be, these are truly unique and enduring compositions. He was truly working on a wholly different level later in his life. At least, IMHO._


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I've now listened to his 4th and 7th symphonies and must say that I'm very impressed - Dvorak is a master both of melody and of dynamics - the orchestration is rich, creative. And the amount of musical ideas is excellent - Dvorak keeps the music fresh, all through these symphonies. There is not a dull moment. I'm looking forward to exploring the rest of Dvorak's symphonies and am sure that they'll be great.


----------



## DamoX

Love his stuff, especially 2nd Movement of Symphony 4.


----------



## jim prideaux

^^^^^^try the 2nd movement of the 3rd-quite magical!


----------



## Lukecash12

hpowders said:


> I'm sorry Brahms never wrote a solo cello concerto. He may have given Dvorak a good run for the money.


Meh, for me it would just be scratching a different itch.


----------



## Xaltotun

Lukecash12 said:


> Meh, for me it would just be scratching a different itch.


Yeah, with Brahms I'm always feeling that he's wrestling with abstract issues or the problems in his personal life, while with Dvorak, I feel this connection with the earth, history, and the community. Brahms is bravely striding the edges of some great emptiness, heroically challenging the abyss; Dvorak is describing his connection and love to all things.


----------



## hpowders

I wonder. Am I the only one on TC who considers the Dvorak cello concerto to be his greatest work?


----------



## KenOC

hpowders said:


> I wonder. Am I the only one on TC who considers the Dvorak cello concerto to be his greatest work?


I like the cello concerto well enough, but have always felt that there are slack stretches without too much sense of direction. Quality-wise, there are chamber works I'd place ahead of it, maybe even a symphony or two...


----------



## hpowders

KenOC said:


> I like the cello concerto well enough, but have always felt that there are slack stretches without too much sense of direction. Quality-wise, there are chamber works I'd place ahead of it, maybe even a symphony or two...


Maybe the Piano Quintet in A. Really lovely first movement. Gets me every time!!


----------



## Xaltotun

hpowders said:


> I wonder. Am I the only one on TC who considers the Dvorak cello concerto to be his greatest work?


I might be there with you at some point in the future, right now I'm totally obsessed with this work. But until that, I stick with _St. Ludmila, Stabat Mater_ and the _Requiem._


----------



## Sid James

hpowders said:


> I wonder. Am I the only one on TC who considers the Dvorak cello concerto to be his greatest work?


Brahms might have agreed with you. He said he would have been proud to compose it. Of course, both composers had a great deal of mutual admiration for eachother. Brahms recommended his publisher Simrock to take up Dvorak, and they followed his advice. Brahms was amazed at Dvorak's extraordinary gift for melody, saying that the ideas he came up with by the way was stronger material than the main themes of other composers.

I am a fan of the work too, I can see why there is a widely held opinion that its the finest concerto composed for the instrument (this would come across as reasonable for many listeners, especially in terms of 19th century repertoire).

However I can also see why maybe a good deal of forum members wouldn't agree, for the same reason that they say they have trouble with Brahms. Both Brahms' and Dvorak's concertos are symphonies for the instruments involved. They are less like concertos and more like symphonies in integrating the soloist into the texture of the orchestra (or as Hanlick said of one of Brahms' ones, a symphony with piano obbligato).

That's what I can think of in terms of what I've read about their concertos on the forum. Dvorak's _Piano Concerto _is criticised in similar terms to those of Brahms, whose _Double Concerto _was a subject of debate on the current listening thread a few weeks ago. I contributed to that and in fact, I have still been trying to fit in a listen to that one since!


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> I wonder. Am I the only one on TC who considers the Dvorak cello concerto to be his greatest work?


No you are not, sadly it's greatness overshadows his Violin and Piano Concerti both excellent works (try Richter's Piano Concerto).
All in all I find Dvorak a bit underrated, his range from orchestral, choral, chamber through the whole canon of music is vast and all of it is of the highest quality. the String Quartets and Piano Quintets are a joy.
Not only do I think that his Cello Concerto is his greatest work, it is, to my mind, the greatest Cello Concerto.


----------



## hpowders

It is tantalizing to surmise what Brahms would have done composing a cello concerto. All we have is the beautiful third movement cello solo of the second piano concerto and the cello part of the double concerto to try and imagine.

I'm sure it would have been a gem. Too bad he never composed one.


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> It is tantalizing to surmise what Brahms would have done composing a cello concerto. All we have is the beautiful third movement cello solo of the second piano concerto and the cello part of the double concerto to try and imagine.
> 
> I'm sure it would have been a gem. Too bad he never composed one.


One can but dream and hope that some musicologist comes up with a long lost manuscript. (If only)


----------



## nightscape

hpowders said:


> I wonder. Am I the only one on TC who considers the Dvorak cello concerto to be his greatest work?


I doubt you're alone on that point since it's widely considered by many to be the greatest cello concerto by any composer, so it's not a stretch to feel it's also Dvorak's best overall.

As was indicated already in this thread, Dvorak was great at so many different musical facets: concerti, symphonic writing, chamber work (string quintet no. 2 op. 77!!), tone poems, opera, etc

I really hope that people start exploring a lot of his lesser known works, which can be just as treasure-filled as his "great" works.


----------



## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> One can but dream and hope that some musicologist comes up with a long lost manuscript. (If only)


That would be fantastic. I'll check my attic, just in case!


----------



## Polyphemus

hpowders said:


> That would be fantastic. I'll check my attic, just in case!


Put me down for a signed copy of the first release.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

hpowders said:


> It is tantalizing to surmise what Brahms would have done composing a cello concerto. All we have is the beautiful third movement cello solo of the second piano concerto and the cello part of the double concerto to try and imagine.
> 
> I'm sure it would have been a gem. Too bad he never composed one.


Do not forget the two Cello sonatas .


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

What a great symphonist - excellent orchestration, great craftsmanship, variety and wonderful melodies to boot. He probably deserves more recognition as one of the all-time greatest symphonists.


----------



## Dave Whitmore

I just read through this whole thread and now I have some new music to listen to. I love Dvorak's 8th and 9th symphonies but he's got so much more to offer. I really enjoyed the Cello Concerto and I'm currently listening to his Piano Quintet. Wonderful music!


----------



## joen_cph

*"Dvorak and Trains"*

- a special upcoming exhibition at the Dvorak museum in Prague:
http://www.nm.cz/Czech-Museum-of-Mu...onin-Dvorak-and-Trains.html?xSET=lang&xLANG=2


----------



## clavichorder

I know very little about Dvorak's chamber music. So I recently listened to his string quintet In g major and am really enjoying it. It has a similar feeling to his upbeat symphonies, 5 and 8.


----------



## clavichorder

Any other fans of String Quintet op 77? I think it has a fantastic sonata form first movement and that scherzo that comes next is wonderfully exciting. I would say its a chamber piece of the highest calibre. 

String Quartet op 51 in E flat is also a real gem, it seems. Amazingly melodic start and really economical theme development; a much more lush and relaxed sound.


----------



## Avey

clavichorder said:


> Any other fans of String Quintet op 77? ...
> 
> String Quartet op 51 in E flat is also a real gem, it seems. Amazingly melodic start and really economical theme development; a much more lush and relaxed sound.


I am a fan of all his chamber music. There isn't a hole.

I am sure you are searching around on your own, but be sure _not_ to skip the non-obvious pieces, like:

S.Q. Nos. 5, 8, 9; 
Terzetto; 
Trio Nos. 2, 3; 
Serenades, Op. 22 and 44;
and _Klid_.

Please, share further opinions as you listen.


----------



## clavichorder

I have heard sq 9 Avey, and I am also very fond of that work.


----------



## nightscape

His String Quintet Op. 77 is awesome, just recently saw a live performance of it in November.

String Quartet No. 5 is one of my favorite overall contributions to the category. Great second movement.

Seek out his Piano Quintet in A major, and check out his sextet as well.


----------



## Avey

I am infatuated with your string quartets, even your string quintets, the trios, also. Ah, the sextet, too.

But, to narrow my entry, let me say: *Your quartets inspire something innate in me.* Rarely, maybe in few other compositions, have I felt so at home and content. I feel and *know* that whatever I am listening to here, set between your four strings, is vital to my mental, spiritual, physical -- whatever, *my basic being*.

Truly, this catalogue -- the quartets, every one -- has imprinted upon my mind ineffable emotions. This pathos is set to specific instances and memories. No listen feels old or banal or tired. Every movement, every moment, every note gives me something I cannot ever forget or misplace along the way. All those notes have impressed matters that I consider were fated to ever reach my ears.

Personal obviously, but all should recognize the sentiment. So, here is my sudden thanks. Because I think such writing was long overdue.


----------



## Dirge

Antonin Dvořák: Symphony No. 9 "From the New World" (1893)
:: Ančerl/CzPO [Ermitage, live Ascona '58]

This is a live 1958 radio broadcast recording from Ascona, Switzerland. The mono recorded sound is a bit distant and reverberant, robbing the performance of some immediate impact, but it's otherwise excellent by radio broadcast standards of the time.

The performance has all the qualities that one normally associates with Ančerl and the Czech Philharmonic: the deftly pointed and precise but still resilient rhythms; the great ensemble timing and coordination; the unfussy refinement and detail; the chamber orchestra-like quicksilver responsiveness; the lithe and athletic, slightly earthy, not too blended/homogenized strings; the piquant and characterful woodwinds (and their always winning solos); the dryly ripe and crisp/slightly biting Western Slavic brass; etc. But what separates it from its studio counterpart is its greater sense of occasion, with more ardent projection, more teeming internal energy, and more unmitigated and purposeful yet utterly natural sense of forward motion throughout.

Whereas the studio account (and many/most other accounts I've heard) tends to adopt a rather deliberate gait in the calmer music that follows in the wake of some of the turbulent sections, this one maintains a nice sense of continuation and flow that sounds more natural and inevitable. The Largo, too, has an unlingering elegance and uncanny sense of flow about it that prevents anything indulgent or affected from taking root, making the movement all the more affecting. (The unlingering, beautifully flowing slow movement is something of an Ančerl specialty: witness his shiver-and goosebump-inducingly beautiful account of the Largo from his recording of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony.) This live performance is also notable for the excellent transitions, especially from the peaceful to the turbulent passages, where Ančerl insidiously builds tension to generate a bit of suspense and drama, sometimes within a span of only a few seconds. All in all, there are performances that are more blazing and powerful at any given moment, but for purposefulness, unflagging just-rightness, and cumulative impact, this is as compelling a performance as I've heard. (I'm hardly a "New World" aficionado, but I've probably hear a dozen or so well-thought-of recordings over the years.)

Listeners requiring excellent stereo would do well to czech out the Kertész/VPO "New World" on Decca-not to be confused with the later Kertész/LPO "New World," also on Decca. It doesn't have the holistic sense of continuity and flow and the crafty transitions of the live Ančerl/CzPO, but for spontaneous excitement and sheer visceral impact, it's tough to beat-and the ultra-vivid and -present recorded sound epitomizes the Decca sound of the early Sixties. The highlight of the performance is the opening of the work, the introduction and transition into the heart of the movement: when the bigger-than-life timpani roll hits you about two minutes in immediately followed by the fast-decaying little outcry from the violins … you're sure in the split-second of near-silence that follows that Kertész and company have all of a sudden changed their minds and decided to play Mahler's "Resurrection" instead of Dvořák's "New World"-which, as it so happens, were written at the same time.


----------



## Janspe

What do you guys think of Dvořák's piano concerto? I'm just now listening to it, and I sincerely don't understand why virtually everyone seems to dismiss it as an unimportant work. I think it's a wonderful piece - and I'm not alone: András Schiff, for example, considers it a masterpiece and has fervently championed it throughout his career. And there are recordings by Richter, Aimard, Hough...

I hope the piece becomes more and more popular as time goes on, so that I can one day here it live!


----------



## Pugg

Janspe said:


> What do you guys think of Dvořák's piano concerto? I'm just now listening to it, and I sincerely don't understand why virtually everyone seems to dismiss it as an unimportant work. I think it's a wonderful piece - and I'm not alone: András Schiff, for example, considers it a masterpiece and has fervently championed it throughout his career. And there are recordings by Richter, Aimard, Hough...
> 
> I hope the piece becomes more and more popular as time goes on, so that I can one day here it live!


I love the piece, the Schiff on Decca is like you say outstanding .


----------



## Animal the Drummer

I do like it (especially the slow movement, which IMO is particularly lovely even for Dvorak) and have the Richter and Aimard versions in my collection, but I don't personally rate it a masterpiece. For me it's on too small a scale, and some of the piano writing is a little too penny-plain, to merit such high praise.


----------



## jim prideaux

As with a number of other contributors I am always amazed that this work is not held in higher regard-without a technical musical education I am unable to respond to some of the criticisms-all I am qualified to comment on is the degree to which I enjoy the Piano Concerto!


----------



## R3PL4Y

What do y'all think of the first 6 symphonies? They seem to be overlooked in favor of the last 3, and even though the first 3 of tchaikovsky have become more popular recently, I feel as though the majority of Dvorak's output as far as symphonies go has been largely ignored.


----------



## majlis

How many know and are familiar with his string quintet op.1?


----------



## Merl

I recall someone a while back saying that Dvorak's early symphonies were like "watching paint dry". I've always enjoyed them, personally, but do find from #6 onwards they improved dramatically (I adore #8). Neumann has a good way with the early symphonies, particularly in his digital cycle (which is superb, thoughout) and #2 is especially good. I've been playing my Panocha set of the string quartets today, for the first time in ages. Fantastic performances. As far as the quintets are concerned I have the Vlach Naxos disc, which is very, very good indeed but again I havent played that in years.


----------



## Johnnie Burgess

neoshredder said:


> So you do like some Romanticism then.


Yes I do.:tiphat:


----------



## Avey

I have been on a Dvorak kick recently after listening to a program detailing his music this past week.

One note: I heard his Ninth Symphony yesterday, which I had probably not heard in over a year or so. I had such tremendous fun, recalling all these fantastic minor moments in the winds, discovering countless new developments in the rhythmic drive of the entire thing, and a certain newfound respect for his grand work.

But more than anything, I was amazed by how much I still enjoyed _the music_. Things do grow old and stale. But some things, despite the tendency, never do. The Ninth is one of those, like much of his music I think.

Thinking, also, just now, had I known everything I do about music today, and I had never heard this Symphony, but then went and listened to it, would I be just _blown away_? Would it sound remarkable _on the very first listen_, unlike many new works I hear today that take time for me to appreciate? I don't have an answer or purpose for asking that, I guess. I just thought this was an interesting inquiry.


----------



## Janspe

Only today did I listen to the Piano Quintet in A major, Op. 81 - for the very first time! Oh my _god_, what a glourious piece it is! I can't believe that I've been missing out on so much for years. I have to dig deeper into Dvořák's chamber music...


----------



## jim prideaux

Janspe said:


> Only today did I listen to the Piano Quintet in A major, Op. 81 - for the very first time! Oh my _god_, what a glourious piece it is! I can't believe that I've been missing out on so much for years. I have to dig deeper into Dvořák's chamber music...


Piano Trios...String Quintet.....glorious!


----------



## Animal the Drummer

The slow movement from the E flat piano quartet is one of his most beautiful, and that's saying something in Dvorák's case.


----------



## Pugg

Animal the Drummer said:


> The slow movement from the E flat piano quartet is one of his most beautiful, and that's saying something in Dvorák's case.


You don't like Dvorak normally?


----------



## Animal the Drummer

On the contrary, my point is that Dvorák wrote many lovely slow movements, so saying this is one of his most beautiful is very high praise.


----------



## Nevohteeb

*those other great Dvorak works*



Janspe said:


> Only today did I listen to the Piano Quintet in A major, Op. 81 - for the very first time! Oh my _god_, what a glourious piece it is! I can't believe that I've been missing out on so much for years. I have to dig deeper into Dvořák's chamber music...


Wait till you hear the piano trios. I love the F-, Op. 65. There is the most exquisite violin solo, in the poco adagio movement. It is one of the most beautiful melodies ever written. I believe that I have about 8 versions. The Beaux Arts Trio (Menaham Pressler, pianist {who is still going strong at 93?, at the Lincoln Center Chamber Music Society, and elsewhere}, Isadore Cohen, violinist, (who sadly left us in 2005), and Bernard Greenhouse (also gone), but still available on cds, or long play. If your public library has a classical music recording section, you can borrow it. Or, go to Arkiv records, on your computer. They might still have their recordings, or to a site that sells older recordings. I love Dvorak. Also, try his piano concerto in G-, Op. 33 (Rudolf Firkusny, Ivan Moravec (favourite), Sviatoslav Richter have also recorded it. Have you heard the cello concerto in B- with Yo Yo Ma. Oh my, can that man play a cello!! The Lincoln Center Chamber Music Society, has live concerts, master classes, and late night Rose, concerts on their site. You will hear all kinds of music, from Purcell, to the latest 21st century composers, on that site, and the best of the best musicians. If you love chamber music, also, go to marlboromusic. org. they have an archive section where they play works from concerts of many years of music making. If you want to hear live concerts from all over the U.S. and the world, go to Performance Today, on your computer. Great concerts, of one hour each.


----------



## Olias

I love the violin concerto. It gets so overshadowed by the cello concerto and the other VCs of the time (Brahms, Tchaikovsky, etc). I would love to hear it performed live more often.


----------



## Tchaikov6

Just heard Legends... what remarkable pieces! So creative, beautiful, and full of variety... this work deserves to be better known!


----------



## Guest

I am a big fan of Dvorák's work and have spent many happy hours watching the set of DVDs recorded in 2014 by Jirí Bêlohlávek and the Czech Philharmonic. This set includes the symphonies 1-9, an introduction to each symphony by Bêlohlávek, and a documentary entitled Sketches of Dvorák.

I enjoy all three of his concertos. The cello concerto is the one that started me on my journey into the world of "serious" music. I listened to all these masterpieces at home as a child, but of course then I was only interested in pop music.

I live in Iowa and hope to get to Spillville one of these days to see where Dvorák and his family spent the summer.


----------



## Nevohteeb

Hi: Have you ever heard his piano trios. I especially love the F-, Op. 65 (#3) The violin solo in the poco adagio movement is exquisitely beautiful. Poignant, lyrical, and a lovely melody. It sings to the soul. Another work that I love, is Brahms Piano Quartet in G-, Op. 25. (Brahms and Dvorak were good friends, and Brahms helped Dvorak, get published). The last movement of the piano quartet, is a gypsy type melody that is like a train going down the tracks, with no brakes. It is a frenetic, frenzied, go-for-broke line that seems never to stop.


----------



## Guest

I saw your post earlier about the piano trio, opus 65. I don't have that one, so I listened to the poco adagio this morning on YouTube, and you are right! It is very beautiful. I have not heard much of Dvorak's chamber music; I have opus 96 of course, written in Spillville (and love it), the String Quintet in A minor, and the String Quintet in E major. I have listened to these two several times each, and enjoy them. I also have the piano quintet in A major.

However, I am sure my father has all the chamber music and I can get these from his collection. I also love most of what Brahms wrote, but I have not delved much into his chamber music yet, either. I am only two years into my journey, so I have much to discover yet. The Brahms and Dvorak symphonies are so far, my favorites. I also just obtained the set of DVDs the Cleveland Orchestra recorded of the Brahms symphonies and the two piano concertos and the violin concerto. It was well worth the cost.

I have been going through a stressful time in my life, and the beautiful music has helped me.


----------



## Vaneyes

carol235 said:


> I saw your post earlier about the piano trio, opus 65. I don't have that one, so I listened to the poco adagio this morning on YouTube, and you are right! It is very beautiful. I have not heard much of Dvorak's chamber music; I have opus 96 of course, written in Spillville (and love it), the String Quintet in A minor, and the String Quintet in E major. I have listened to these two several times each, and enjoy them. I also have the piano quintet in A major.
> 
> However, I am sure my father has all the chamber music and I can get these from his collection. I also love most of what Brahms wrote, but I have not delved much into his chamber music yet, either. I am only two years into my journey, so I have much to discover yet. The Brahms and Dvorak symphonies are so far, my favorites. I also just obtained the set of DVDs the Cleveland Orchestra recorded of the Brahms symphonies and the two piano concertos and the violin concerto. It was well worth the cost.
> 
> I have been going through a stressful time in my life, and the beautiful music has helped me.


Best of luck with those doldrums.

Two nice doubles related to some of your composer desirings, and more. :tiphat:


----------



## Guest

Thanks for the kind words and recommendations, Vaneyes. I enjoy these forums so much and have received lots of excellent advice!


----------



## Gordontrek

I wish more people listened to ALL of the Slavonic Dances, and not just number 8. There are several that I believe are much better.


----------



## Pugg

Gordontrek said:


> I wish more people listened to ALL of the Slavonic Dances, and not just number 8. There are several that I believe are much better.


I like these _a lot_:

​


----------



## Merl

Tchaikov6 said:


> Just heard Legends... what remarkable pieces! So creative, beautiful, and full of variety... this work deserves to be better known!


Ivan Fischer's recording is a must have. Just brilliant.


----------



## Nevohteeb

Janspe: If you want to hear something else, really sublime, his piano trios, are exquisite. My favourite is, the Fminor, Op. 65. I especially love the poco adagio movement, where the violin has such a lovely part. The melodic line. It is so, so poignant. The Beaux Arts Trio has an excellent performance of this one, and the other 3 trios ( although this trio is no longer around, only Menaham Pressler is still alive at 93), Their cds are still available, from Arkiv Music, or Amazon (on line).Other great performances, are, Emanuel Ax, Young Uck Kim, and Yo Yo Ma, on Sony, and the Florestan Trio on Hyperion label.


----------



## jim prideaux

Nevohteeb said:


> Janspe: If you want to hear something else, really sublime, his piano trios, are exquisite. My favourite is, the Fminor, Op. 65. I especially love the poco adagio movement, where the violin has such a lovely part. The melodic line. It is so, so poignant. The Beaux Arts Trio has an excellent performance of this one, and the other 3 trios ( although this trio is no longer around, only Menaham Pressler is still alive at 93), Their cds are still available, from Arkiv Music, or Amazon (on line).Other great performances, are, Emanuel Ax, Young Uck Kim, and Yo Yo Ma, on Sony, and the Florestan Trio on Hyperion label.


on reading your post I have felt the urgent need to return to the Smetana trio's recording of these works (Supraphon).....thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## Merl

Anyone own or heard this 3CD set? Cant find reviews anywhere and dont wanna buy a turkey.


----------



## Klassik

Merl said:


> Anyone own or heard this 3CD set? Cant find reviews anywhere and dont wanna buy a turkey.


I have not heard those. If you're looking for some inexpensive Dvorak symphony CDs, check out the Libor Pesek boxset from Erato/Warner Classics. It has all the symphonies, the Carnival Overture, and other select orchestral works. It was re-released last year and is available for quite cheap. I paid ~$20 for it from Barnes & Noble online.

http://www.warnerclassics.com/shop/800029,0190295975067/libor-pesek-dvorak-symphonies-1-9-and-orchestral-works


----------



## jim prideaux

Merl said:


> Ivan Fischer's recording is a must have. Just brilliant.


as with last night and mention of the trios I have this evening been inspired by this post to listen to this recording again.....so there!


----------



## Merl

Ive got the Pesek discs, Klassik, and lots of other Dvorak sets (Kubelik, Kertesz, Neumann x2, Rowicki, Suitner, Jarvi, Belohlavek, etc) and lots of recordings of the last 3 symphonies (Mackerras, etc) but I've never heard that Nowak set. I'm intrigued to find out if it's any good.


----------



## Olias

Gordontrek said:


> I wish more people listened to ALL of the Slavonic Dances, and not just number 8. There are several that I believe are much better.


Is number 8 played more often? Usually I hear number 1 performed a lot at the expense of others. I enjoy both 1 and 8 but I think my favorites are 3 and 7.


----------



## Barbebleu

I haven't read through the whole thread but if no one's beaten me to it I would recommend Dvorak's string quartets. Brilliant stuff.


----------



## KenOC

From the Internet: “On today's date in 1883, the premiere of Antonín Dvořák's Violin Concerto was given in Prague by the Czech violinist František Ondrícek with the National Theatre Orchestra. Some program notes still state that Dvořák himself conducted the premiere, but in fact it was a Czech conductor named Moric Anger, an old friend of the Dvořák's and his one-time roommate, who had that honor.

“The concerto was commissioned by one of the most distinguished violinists of Dvořák's day, Joseph Joachim, an old friend and collaborator of the German composer Johannes Brahms. It was Brahms who introduced Joachim to Dvořák's music. Brahms had sent Joachim two of Dvořák's chamber works for strings. Joachim expressed enthusiasm for these pieces and urged Dvořák to write a concerto for him.

“So far so good. Dvořák began his concerto in July 1879 and had a finished score by December of that year. But Joachim had what we now would call "some issues" with the score, and, by the time Dvořák was finishing the last revisions, almost four years had elapsed with no talk of a premiere. Dvořák realized Joachim was unlikely to ever premiere the new Concerto, so he offered it to Ondrícek, a young Czech violin virtuoso who eagerly championed it in Prague and abroad.

“We should note that Joachim finally did perform Dvořák's Concerto in Berlin in 1894, some 15 years after he had commissioned it.”


----------



## flamencosketches

I know it's a staple (and some might say overplayed) but I've just discovered the new world symphony and I really like it. Great melodies. After hearing it for the first time I'd had some stuck in my head all day. It really does have an "exploration" theme to my ears, and that was awesome to note that Neil Armstrong brought a recording with him to the moon. I could scarcely think of a more fitting piece. Excited to check out more of this composer's work!


----------



## MusicSybarite

flamencosketches said:


> I know it's a staple (and some might say overplayed) but I've just discovered the new world symphony and I really like it. Great melodies. After hearing it for the first time I'd had some stuck in my head all day. It really does have an "exploration" theme to my ears, and that was awesome to note that Neil Armstrong brought a recording with him to the moon. I could scarcely think of a more fitting piece. Excited to check out more of this composer's work!


I envy you because you have heard it with fresh ears! Others of his symphonies (5, 6, 7 and 8) too have memorable melodic content. Dvorak was one of the greatest tunesmiths.


----------



## Janspe

Listening to the first String Quintet (A minor, Op. 1/B.7) as the final piece of my overlong listening session (it's almost 4 am here but I can't seem to stop!) and as the first piece of my grand project: listening to all of Dvořák's chamber works.

Why am I undertaking such a huge project? There's just so much music that I don't know yet, at all, and this frustrates me _a lot_. Life is short, so there's no time to waste... And I love Dvořák very much, which makes it extra annoying that there are many works of his, even major ones, that I haveno experience with. That will change soon!


----------



## Janspe

I feel the deepest admiration and love towards the three concerti of Dvořák - yes, even the little-loved G minor concerto for piano that I try to champion in Dvořák-related discussions whenever I can. It truly is a gem and worthy of careful attention to all lovers of great piano concertos.

But the violin concerto is the piece that I'm most attracted to. It really is one of the most important pieces by Dvořák - or anyone! - for me. I wonder if there are a lot of people who prefer it to the great cello concerto - which I of course love to bits, but no as much. There's something life-affirming about the violin concerto, and I'm glad to see that it really has managed to resurrect itself back to concert programs and recordings thanks to the efforts of countless great violinists. There are hardly any finales in the standard repertoire that make me - to put it simply - as _happy_ as the finale of Dvořák's violin concerto.


----------



## Olias

Yeah, with you on that one. The Dvorak VC is my favorite next to Mendelssohn's. I particularly love how the truncated first movement makes all three movements about the same length, (unlike the Brahms or Beethoven which have tremendously long first movements). This approach balances the entire concerto better and puts more attention on the rondo.


----------



## flamencosketches

Definitely going to seek out recordings of the Dvořák violin and piano concerti... do these have a definitive recording, like Rostropovich/Karajan/Berlin for the Cello Concerto? How's Richter/Kleiber in the piano concerto? Amazing, I'm guessing.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> Definitely going to seek out recordings of the Dvořák violin and piano concerti... do these have a definitive recording, like Rostropovich/Karajan/Berlin for the Cello Concerto? How's Richter/Kleiber in the piano concerto? Amazing, I'm guessing.


These are just personal preferences, but I swear by the following recordings:

Piano Concerto: András Schiff/Christoph von Dohnányi/Wiener Philharmoniker
Violin Concerto: Isabelle Faust/Jiří Bělohlávek/The Prague Philharmonia

Of the violin concerto there are countless recordings by a lot of great violinists. I'm of course obliged to recommend Christian Tetzlaff's relatively recent Ondine release with my home orchestra Helsinki Philharmonic, led by John Storgårds. It's a very nice recording indeed! But so many have recorded it that you're spoilt with choice.

The piano concerto fares much worse, I really think the Schiff recording is the place to start. The Richter/Kleiber is obviously the best-known, and should be given attention in its own right, but I find Schiff superior. There's also the Aimard/Harnoncourt, not my go-to recording but still worth a listen. The most important thing with the Piano Concerto is to *not* listen to a recording that uses the infamous revised piano part - an attempt to make the soloist's part more virtuosic and flashy, and definitely not by Dvořák himself. The original is perfect as it is. And by the way, apparently it's a *terrifyingly* difficult thing to master, even though the audience remains blissfully unaware of this - I think Richter said it's the most difficult piece he has ever learnt. That's quite something...


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> These are just personal preferences, but I swear by the following recordings:
> 
> Piano Concerto: András Schiff/Christoph von Dohnányi/Wiener Philharmoniker
> Violin Concerto: Isabelle Faust/Jiří Bělohlávek/The Prague Philharmonia
> 
> Of the violin concerto there are countless recordings by a lot of great violinists. I'm of course obliged to recommend Christian Tetzlaff's relatively recent Ondine release with my home orchestra Helsinki Philharmonic, led by John Storgårds. It's a very nice recording indeed! But so many have recorded it that you're spoilt with choice.
> 
> The piano concerto fares much worse, I really think the Schiff recording is the place to start. The Richter/Kleiber is obviously the best-known, and should be given attention in its own right, but I find Schiff superior. There's also the Aimard/Harnoncourt, not my go-to recording but still worth a listen. The most important thing with the Piano Concerto is to *not* listen to a recording that uses the infamous revised piano part - an attempt to make the soloist's part more virtuosic and flashy, and definitely not by Dvořák himself. The original is perfect as it is. And by the way, apparently it's a *terrifyingly* difficult thing to master, even though the audience remains blissfully unaware of this - I think Richter said it's the most difficult piece he has ever learnt. That's quite something...


Thanks! I've heard that the PC is a beast of a concerto. I'll sample both Richter and Schiff. I'm a fan of each, but especially Richter. As for the VC, that Isabelle Faust sounds great, I have a few other records of hers and I am a fan. I'll have to check that one out.

I'm listening to the cello concerto this morning, the Rostropovich/Karajan/Berlin recording. A very beautiful work! I'm new to appreciating Dvořák's music. I think I had to get really into Brahms first before I could really appreciate Dvořák; different as they are, they just might be two sides of the same coin in my mind. I need to spend more time with this. Eventually, I will get into his symphonies and string quartets, but I think I will focus on the concerti for now.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> As for the VC, that Isabelle Faust sounds great, I have a few other records of hers and I am a fan. I'll have to check that one out.


A little bit off topic - and you might already know this anyway - but! Early next year harmonia mundi shall release Faust's recording of the Schoenberg concerto, coupled with _Verklärte Nacht_ in the sextet version, played by Faust and others! I think I remember you being quite a Schoenberg fan, so this might be interestesting news for you too.


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> A little bit off topic - and you might already know this anyway - but! Early next year harmonia mundi shall release Faust's recording of the Schoenberg concerto, coupled with _Verklärte Nacht_ in the sextet version, played by Faust and others! I think I remember you being quite a Schoenberg fan, so this might be interestesting news for you too.


Wow, yeah, that sounds amazing. Good call, I'll be looking out for that one!


----------



## Janspe

I decided to listen to a random Dvořák quartet just now, as I don't know them nearly as well as I should. You know, just a little bit of listening before continuing on with some household chores...

...or that's how it would've gone had I not chosen the _monster_ of a quartet that is the 3rd. How was I not aware that Dvořák wrote a string quartet that runs well over an hour!? The first movement alone is almost half an hour long. I can't say I could grasp or understand this work on first listen, I feel bewildered.

What do people make of this piece? I'm not surprised at all that this isn't exactly a repertoire piece, it's just so massive and sprawling.


----------



## flamencosketches

Janspe said:


> I decided to listen to a random Dvořák quartet just now, as I don't know them nearly as well as I should. You know, just a little bit of listening before continuing on with some household chores...
> 
> ...or that's how it would've gone had I not chosen the _monster_ of a quartet that is the 3rd. How was I not aware that Dvořák wrote a string quartet that runs well over an hour!? The first movement alone is almost half an hour long. I can't say I could grasp or understand this work on first listen, I feel bewildered.
> 
> What do people make of this piece? I'm not surprised at all that this isn't exactly a repertoire piece, it's just so massive and sprawling.


At over an hour, it would seem to beat out Schubert's 15th quartet as definitely the longest string quartet by a major composer (whose name is not Morton Feldman). What did you think? Did the content justify the length?

More and more I find myself dipping my toes in the water with Dvořák's music, which for a long time I did not like. I like to credit Rafael Kubelik's great recording of the 8th and 9th symphonies with the Berlin Philharmonic for unlocking some of the appeal to this music for me, especially the 8th. What a symphony! The overtures and tone poems are also quite nice. I still have yet to hear the violin concerto in full. The cello and piano concertos are both interesting works in their own ways. I also enjoy the "Dumky" trio.


----------



## Janspe

flamencosketches said:


> What did you think? Did the content justify the length?


Hard to say as I've only heard to piece once so far. I did feel _very_ long, though - I do think all the people who call it a bit, ermm, meandering might be on to something. Nevertheless, I must revisit it a few times before I make an assessment. It might just take some time before I have the energy for such a huge chunk of early Dvořák again...


----------



## gvn

It may be worth remembering that String Quartets 1-4 are very early Dvořák indeed, dating from the late 1860s (i.e., contemporary with the first two symphonies), and that he didn't really start to find his characteristic voice until 1873 (the year of the Third Symphony). In fact, rightly or wrongly, it's usually felt that only the last five quartets (10-14) can fairly be set beside the last five symphonies.

Of course, once he _did_ find his voice... wow!


----------



## Ned Low

An underrated work would be his 3rd symphony. So Wagnerian especially the 2nd movement Adagio. I love it. Call it Wagner Symphony( sorry Bruckner). He has composed so many other fine works. However' i'm only familiar with some : serenades, songs my mother taught me, cello concerto. I hope i'll get to know this Bohemian genius better in the future.


----------



## Merl

I rarely play the first 4 quartets, tbh, and the 3rd is ridiculously wayyyyy too long. Furthermore Dvorak (sensibly in my view) totally disowned them and thought he had destroyed them. There's plenty of material to enjoy from 5 onwards but many people think he largely hit his stride from the Slavonic Quartet onwards. I actually really enjoy some moments of SQs 5-10 (8 is an excellent but melancholy quartet).


----------



## BlackAdderLXX

Merl said:


> I rarely play the first 4 quartets, tbh, and the 3rd is ridiculously wayyyyy too long. Furthermore Dvorak (sensibly in my view) totally disowned them and thought he had destroyed them. There's plenty of material to enjoy from 5 onwards but many people think he largely hit his stride from the Slavonic Quartet onwards. I actually really enjoy some moments of SQs 5-10 (8 is an excellent but melancholy quartet).


Good to know it's not just me. I've been working through my Panocha box set and the first two so far have not been too inspiring...


----------



## CnC Bartok

flamencosketches said:


> Definitely going to seek out recordings of the Dvořák violin and piano concerti... do these have a definitive recording, like Rostropovich/Karajan/Berlin for the Cello Concerto? How's Richter/Kleiber in the piano concerto? Amazing, I'm guessing.


A late response, but who cares...!

All three concertos are very very well served in the complete symphonies set done on Decca by the Czech Phil and Jiri Belohlavek. Soloists are: Alisa Weilerstein, Frank Peter Zimmermann and Garrick Ohlsson. I reckon Ohlsson does as good a job as anyone (including Richter) in making a decent case out for the Piano Concerto, which - I'm sorry - isn't perfect, certainly not in comparison to the two other concertos.


----------



## CnC Bartok

BlackAdderLXX said:


> Good to know it's not just me. I've been working through my Panocha box set and the first two so far have not been too inspiring...


Dvorak's Quartets are very much like Schubert's, in that the later they get, the exponentially greater they become! Yeah, there's some decent music in all of the earlier quartets, but some condensing of certain movements would have made them significantly better.

No.10 onwards are superb (and I'd add the Cypresses in to the mix too, both chronologically and in terms of quality!)


----------



## Sid James

*A Dvorak diary - recent listening*

*Piano Trio in E minor, Op. 90 'Dumky'* (1891)

Dvorak's mature style is a fusion of his Czech heritage, the Viennese classical tradition and something uniquely his own. The *'Dumky' trio* demonstrates an effective combination of these elements. The entire work is built around the Ukrainian dumka dance form, each of its six movements alternating melancholy and joyful moods.

It is Dvorak's own musical voice which attracts me to this work. I especially like the unconventional layout which holds together the contrasting melodies. They can be as heavy footed as a rustic dance or as gentle as a lullaby. I like the sense of nature and the way this music just lets my imagination wander.

The plucking and drone sounds in the third movement recall Dvorak's early years growing up around his father's village inn, where they both played music. He never forgot his roots, replying to the fulsome praise of a colleague by saying that, at heart, he remained forever "a simple Czech musician."

I hear something of the intense fragility of Schubert's trios in the slow sections (particularly the opening of the second movement). In the last movement, the music moves from gentle to vigorous, and the ending is somewhat abrupt. It's like a conversation between friends who have to say goodbye, even though they wish they could continue talking forever.

*Serenade for Strings in E minor, Op. 22* (1875)

"Mozart is sweet sunshine," said Dvorak, and his *Serenade for Strings *has more than a bit of the radiance of that composer's music. A contemporary critic described it as "untroubled, flowing night music." That is exactly the way I see it. This is perfect music for winding down after a hard day.

Even though the emphasis is on elegance, Dvorak's trademark folkloric warmth is still present. I think that the two complement each other perfectly. The mellow tones make me think of a golden sunset and the delicate, filigree patterns are reminiscent of Mozart and Haydn.

*Piano Concerto in G minor, Op. 33* (1876)

Even though I can understand the reasons for Dvorak's *Piano Concerto* not entering the performance repertoire, I've liked it ever since I first heard it. It might, as some critics say, be too much like Beethoven or Brahms for its own good but the melodies alone make this an attractive work. They are unmistakably Dvorak's own, and bring to mind Brahms' famous complement, "I should be glad if something occurred to me as a main idea that occurs to Dvorak only by the way."

From the outset, the piano and orchestra develop ideas together rather than in competition. I like the build up at the beginning, from a broad and noble theme to a folkish dance. There is a conversational tone to the second movement, and an exchange emerges between the piano answered by the whole orchestra in a loud flourish somewhat reminiscent of Haydn's 'Surprise' symphony. The final movement has the obligatory dance tune, interspersed with reflective episodes and some vigorous counterpoint.

I like all of Dvorak's concertos, but this is the one I listen to the most. I really like the skilful blending of the themes. I see the understated piano part as more an asset than a hindrance, something which contributes to the uniqueness of the work.

The recordings which I listened to:

Trio - Rosamunde Trio, alto ALC 1058





Serenade - English Chamber Orchestra/Rafael Kubelik, Eloquence 476 7405





















Concerto - Sviatoslav Richter, piano/Bavarian Radio SO/Carlos Kleiber, EMI 5 66947 2


----------



## Neo Romanza

Over the last few years, my love for Dvořák has increased to an impassioned level. To try and pinpoint the _how_ this actually happened goes back to six or seven years ago when I bought all of those Supraphon sets (the colored ones --- blue, purple, orange, etc.). Prior to buying these box sets, I had a 'decent' understanding of the composer's idiom, but I hadn't explored his oeuvre in any particular depth. I knew a few of the symphonies, the three concerti, some chamber pieces and perhaps one or two of the symphonic poems. Anyway, when I started exploring his oeuvre in more depth thanks to those Supraphon sets, I had one of those 'lightbulb moments' and started to realize the genius of this composer. As of right now, I've explored his orchestral works, chamber music, solo piano, lieder, choral works et. al. The only genre that I haven't explored in any depth has been his operas, although I know, and love, _Rusalka_, it has been only recently that I decided to look beyond this opera. Anyway, I find that the more time I spend with his music the more I'm rewarded for listening. His music only gets better and better with age and of all the Romantics, he is by far one of my favorites. I'd rank him with Mahler, Bruckner, Berlioz, Liszt, Smetana, Schumann and a few others as having a tremendous impact on me.

Anyway, this might be an impossible question, but what would you say you guys' 'Top 5' favorite works of his would be? I'll have to think a bit about this myself.


----------



## Roman Koval

Yes!!! Mr. Dvorak!!!! First I heard was Serenade for strings. We had additional music lessons and I remember one day I've seen how girl from high school played it on the piano before my first lesson!


----------



## Musicaterina

My favourite piece by Antonin Dvorak is by far the cello concerto in B minor. I have got at least ten recordings of this piece played by different musicians, among them Jan Vogler, Mstislav Rostropovich, Truls Mork, Jean-Guihen Queyras and Gautier Capucon.


----------



## Merl

I've been listening to the Cypresses for string quartet today, courtesy of the Panochas. They're still charming pieces, to me, and much better played in their quartet form than as warbly love songs, IMO.


----------



## Olias

Musicaterina said:


> My favourite piece by Antonin Dvorak is by far the cello concerto in B minor. I have got at least ten recordings of this piece played by different musicians, among them Jan Vogler, Mstislav Rostropovich, Truls Mork, Jean-Guihen Queyras and Gautier Capucon.


All great versions. Check out Alisa Weilerstein's recording as well. Lots of other Dvorak pieces for cello also included.


----------



## Olias

Merl said:


> I've been listening to the Cypresses for string quartet today, courtesy of the Panochas. They're still charming pieces, to me, and *much better played in their quartet form* than as warbly love songs, IMO.


YES! Agreed! Panocha SQ does a great job with them too.


----------



## JohnP

Another agreed! They're also fine in Martinů.


----------



## Animal the Drummer

For anyone who doesn't know/have it, I can recommend Raphael Wallfisch's aristocratic account (yet one with plenty of fire in its belly) of the Dvorak concerto on Chandos with the late, lamented Sir Charles Mackerras conducting Czech music as few others can.


----------



## Kreisler jr

My 'cello concerto favorites are Fournier/Szell and Perenyi/Fischer [preferably the cheap coupling with the Hindemith concerto, not the original hungaroton with the insufferable Rococo variations]. When I did some comparing a few months ago I was somewhat less convinced by Queyras which I used to count as a favorite as well.


----------



## jim prideaux

As mentioned in current listening I am currently listening to Dvorak with renewed 'intent'......the final movement of the 5th never ceases to amaze me but as I then listen to the overture to Othello on the Jansons/Oslo Phil cd I am now appreciating a piece that I thought I knew .....superb!


----------



## Merl

I'm gradually working my way thru reviewing all the available Dvorak SQ perfoemances. I've blogged 3 already and will be blogging another in the next few days.


----------



## starthrower

I'll be following your blog, Merl. For whatever reason I've been putting off the Dvorak quartets for years. But now that I've introduced myself to Op.96 on the Brodsky disc I can hear what I've been missing. I need some more recordings of the mature quartets.


----------



## Merl

I've done 10, 12, 13 & 14 up to now. Can you see where this is going, ST? Lol. The American quartet was a nightmare due to the sheer volume of recordings (100+). I've already started listening to the 11th. It's weird but doing it SQ by SQ has given me a lot more respect for the Prague SQ recordings which I always felt were inferior to the Panochas but tbh there's little in it really. As a set the Panochas is still the most consistent but the quality of those New Vlach recordings on Naxos have also impressed me. I collected them all years ago and kinda left them by the wayside. Listening again has reaped some rich rewards as a few are terrific.


----------



## starthrower

The Essential 3 disc set by Panocha, or a couple Naxos volumes will probably do me nicely. Gotta do some streaming to see what sounds good to my ears.


----------



## Kreisler jr

The Naxos with the A flat major op.105 and coupling is very good. For the G major the live with Tetzlaff etc. from a Festival (coupled with the wind serenade, also stunningly played, although maybe not quite bohemian) is my new favorite, I guess. But I think overall the G major op.106 and the American op.96 are better served on disc than the A flat major.


----------



## Merl

Kreisler jr said:


> The Naxos with the A flat major op.105 and coupling is very good. For the G major the live with Tetzlaff etc. from a Festival (coupled with the wind serenade, also stunningly played, although maybe not quite bohemian) is my new favorite, I guess. But I think overall the G major op.106 and the American op.96 are better served on disc than the A flat major.


I think we're like kids in a sweet shop with Dvorak SQ recordings. There's many absolute bangers. Like Beethoven SQ discs we really are spoiled for choice, IMO.


----------



## Merl

Here's my blog post of Dvorak SQ 11 recordings if anyone's interested.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3492-dvorak-string-quartet-11-a.html


----------



## Olias

Merl said:


> Here's my blog post of Dvorak SQ 11 recordings if anyone's interested.
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3492-dvorak-string-quartet-11-a.html


I've been trying to analyze the formal structure of SQ11 and it is not being as cooperative as others. The chromaticism and ambiguous tonality shifts are a challenge to figure out.


----------



## Merl

I find Dvorak's 11th quartet a frustrating listen, Olias. I still enjoy it but structurally I find it a mix of confusing ideas and a few of Dvorak's weaker melodies. I feel that the usual, heavy Czech element is far too restrained. I'm currently listening to multiple 9ths and it's a much better and more cohesive piece (and far more melancholic in atmosphere, for obvious reasons). For me, the Slavonic Quartet, squeezed in-between them, is one of the greatest quartets in the repertoire and possibly my favourite Dvorak quartet (contentious).


----------



## gvn

I too feel as if the 11th is in some ways the odd one out, among Dvořák's late quartets; I feel as if 10, 12, 13, 14 belong together, and 11 doesn't. And I know I tend to reach for each of those others more quickly than the 11th, when I want to hear one of the Dvořák quartets.

On the other hand, I'm not sure whether that makes 11 inferior, or simply different in character--a work that takes longer, and more hearings, before it yields up any of its secrets, in a way that one doesn't usually associate with Dvořák. It's interesting that the Vlach Quartet, who seem to have understood this repertoire as well as anyone (and a lot better than a mere listener like myself), recorded 9, 11, 12, 13, and 14 but--to my great surprise--NOT 10. Presumably the absence is a mere accident of recording history, but still it suggests that they didn't consider 11 a particularly low priority among these quartets.

At any rate I do admire the fact that Dvořák never repeated himself in his mature quartets. Every one of them is different; every one of them has its own distinctive world. Perhaps that's another point of similarity with the late Beethoven quartets.


----------



## gvn

Merl said:


> I think we're like kids in a sweet shop with Dvorak SQ recordings. There's many absolute bangers. Like Beethoven SQ discs we really are spoiled for choice, IMO.


My feelings exactly. Somewhere on this website there's a thread devoted specifically to the Dvořák string quartets. One contributor sings the praises of the Prague Qt set (DG), another recommends the Stamitz Qt (now on Brilliant Classics), another the Vlach Qt Prague (Naxos), another the Panocha Qt (Supraphon). Reading that thread, a year or so ago I took down all four sets from my shelves and played them all, one after another. They all had quite different attractions, and _I liked them all_--I simply couldn't decide between them, and I wouldn't part with any of them. And on top of those, of course there's the wonderful old Vlach Qt partial set mentioned in my previous post.


----------



## Merl

gvn said:


> My feelings exactly. Somewhere on this website there's a thread devoted specifically to the Dvořák string quartets. One contributor sings the praises of the Prague Qt set (DG), another recommends the Stamitz Qt (now on Brilliant Classics), another the Vlach Qt Prague (Naxos), another the Panocha Qt (Supraphon). Reading that thread, a year or so ago I took down all four sets from my shelves and played them all, one after another. They all had quite different attractions, and _I liked them all_--I simply couldn't decide between them, and I wouldn't part with any of them. And on top of those, of course there's the wonderful old Vlach Qt partial set mentioned in my previous post.


I agree. I have all those cycles and love them all. If you look at my blogged reviews there's little between all of the individual performances. I agree too that most of those old Vlach 60s recordings are something special - they had a unique sound and timbre I find infectious. Listening to different accounts of the 9th today there's similar very high quality performances from those cycles but others might take this one. . I'll post my review tomorrow.


----------



## Olias

Merl said:


> I find Dvorak's 11th quartet a frustrating listen, Olias. I still enjoy it but structurally I find it a mix of confusing ideas and a few of Dvorak's weaker melodies. I feel that the usual, heavy Czech element is far too restrained. I'm currently listening to multiple 9ths and it's a much better and more cohesive piece (and far more melancholic in atmosphere, for obvious reasons). For me, the Slavonic Quartet, squeezed in-between them, is one of the greatest quartets in the repertoire and possibly my favourite Dvorak quartet (contentious).


Actually, I agree with everything you just said.


----------



## Olias

BTW Merl, before this pandemic, I was able to spend 13 days in Scotland, hitting Edinburgh, Culross, Kenmore, St Andrews, Dunkeld, Glencoe, Stirling, Oban, Inverness, Mull, and Iona. My goodness what a gorgeous country.

Slange :cheers:


----------



## Kreisler jr

For me, the last two Dvorak quartets op.105+106 are head and shoulders above the rest, almost a bit like late Beethoven being in a class of their own. 
The "American" is a good, but rather lightweight piece that is overrated in a similar way as the New World Symphony. I should listen again to the C major but it also used to be a puzzling piece for me I didn't really connect with. I also have the impression that here (like in the 7th symphony and some other pieces) Dvorak seems to intentionally avoid the bohemian melodies etc. The "Slavonic" op.51 errs in the opposite direction, almost too much relying on the bohemian charm; it's a nice piece but it suffers for me from the first three movements not offering much contrast. The d minor op.34 is an underrated piece that IMO deserved to be as well known as the "Slavonic". There is a great (mono?) recording of the d minor with the Janacek Q. in the DG Masters Box of the Janacek Q.


----------



## Merl

Olias said:


> BTW Merl, before this pandemic, I was able to spend 13 days in Scotland, hitting Edinburgh, Culross, Kenmore, St Andrews, Dunkeld, Glencoe, Stirling, Oban, Inverness, Mull, and Iona. My goodness what a gorgeous country.
> 
> Slange :cheers:


It is indeed a beautiful country., Olias but I'm not Scottish. I'm English but being up here 8 years you do tend to fall for Scotland's picturesque charms. I find life is not as hectic as living in a big city in England. I live about 25 miles from Dundee and Edinburgh and 20 miles from St. Andrews.



Kreisler jr said:


> .. There is a great (mono?) recording of the d minor with the Janacek Q. in the DG Masters Box of the Janacek Q.


There certainly is, Kreisler. I've got it. It's stereo not mono though. It was the 1963 recording they originally did for Decca and it is superb. This may sound like sacrilege but there is even better out there in Dvorakland. 

Edit: my blog review of SQ9 is at the link below.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3493-dvorak-string-quartet-9-a.html


----------



## Olias

Merl said:


> It is indeed a beautiful country., Olias but I'm not Scottish. I'm English but being up here 8 years you do tend to fall for Scotland's picturesque charms. I find life is not as hectic as living in a big city in England. I live about 25 miles from Dundee and Edinburgh and 20 miles from St. Andrews.


Yes! I remember crossing a large bridge over the Firth of Forth on the way from Edinburgh to St Andrews. Beautiful scenery!


----------



## Merl

Olias said:


> Yes! I remember crossing a large bridge over the Firth of Forth on the way from Edinburgh to St Andrews. Beautiful scenery!


You will have passed within 3 miles of my house on your way to St. Andrews, Olias. You should have popped in for a coffee. :lol:


----------



## starthrower

I wonder how many Americans traveling abroad went searching for the Firth of Fifth not realizing it was just made up by those blokes in Genesis?


----------



## Olias

Merl said:


> You will have passed within 3 miles of my house on your way to St. Andrews, Olias. You should have popped in for a coffee. :lol:


Haha! I'll know for next time.  This picture was later in the trip but this is me at Urquhart Castle up in the highlands.


----------



## Olias

Sorry for the diversion everyone. Now back to our regular Dvorak thread.....


----------



## Merl

Nowt wrong with a bit of thread diversion every now and again. We're all human.


----------



## Malx

.................


----------



## Merl

Malx said:


> .................


Malx, that's not a great post, tbh. Here's my round-up of Dvorak SQ8 performances.

https://www.talkclassical.com/blogs/merl/3494-dvorak-string-quartet-8-a.html


----------



## hammeredklavier

Merl said:


> We're all human.


----------



## Merl

I'm currently making my way through the Cypresses (Echo of songs) again after a very lengthy break but I still find them a bit 'soppy and samey (for want of better words). Is this just me or do others feel the same? I dont dislike them at all but have always thought of them as some of a Dvorak's weakest pieces. Yes, they are charming, yes they are sweet but they' re still a little saccharine, IMO. Your thoughts?


----------



## Dirge

Antonin DVOŘÁK: *Czech Suite, Op, 39* (1879) • *Legends, Op. 59* (1881)
:: Serebrier/Scottish Chamber Orchestra [ASV ’90] _~ not to be confused with Serebrier’s remakes with the Bournemouth SO [Warner ’11 & ’14]_
YouTube link to Czech Suite
YouTube link to Legends

The _Legends _opus comprises ten legends originally composed for piano four hands but soon arranged/orchestrated for small orchestra. Dvořák provides no program, letting the listener make of the suggestive title what he may. The music is rife with catchy tunes of a quality and character that will immediately betray the composer to anyone familiar with the Slavonic Dances, though _Legends _has a more lyrical/less rhythmic bent that’s more akin to, say, the Moderato and Larghetto movements of the Serenade for Strings. As that may suggest, the legends are more subtly appointed and flowing, less strongly contrasted and varied than the dances. I prefer the orchestra version of _Legends _to its piano four hands version … the narrative flow and lyrical nature of the music just seems more naturally suited to orchestra, and the arrangement/orchestration for small orchestra is beautifully accomplished. (Conversely, I prefer the piano four hands version of the Slavonic Dances to the orchestra version.)

The Czech Suite is another work that’s rife with catchy tunes, but it’s lighter in weight and much windier in sonority than _Legends_; it’s also more varied from movement to movement, not only in character but in instrumentation, with different groups of wind instruments joining a relatively modest string section. Curiously, it’s one of those works that falls into the “I like it more than I listen to it” category.

Although neither work is heard all that often in concert, they’re well served on record, with my favorite recordings being those by Serebrier/SCO, which are conveniently coupled on disc. The SCO sounds more pared down than competing orchestras—some parts of _Legends _that are taken by multiple players in other performances are taken by a solo player here—and it’s recorded fairly closely and clearly, allowing the music’s inner workings to come through naturally, without analytical highlighting. Indeed, this inner clarity in league with Serebrier’s keen ear for balances (Stokowski dubbed the young Serebrier “the greatest master of orchestral balances”) is a hallmark of these performances, as is the sheer vigor and virility with which they’re carried out—the latter being most evident in the closing of the Furiant (the final movement of the Suite), which Serebrier/SCO make as exciting and compelling as it could be. All in all, the playing is unfussily proficient in execution and earthy in tone, phrasing is as natural as a vigorous walk in the countryside, there’s a compelling sense of forward motion (and sweep & momentum when called for), and the prevailing atmosphere is more rustic and folky than usual. The original ASV disc is hard to come by at a reasonable price, and you may have better luck finding the Musical Heritage Society reissue. I don’t know of a download source.

As for alternative recordings, Kubelík/ECO [DG ’76] offers up a suaver and more refined and airily atmospheric account of _Legends _that has a certain “mythic” aura suggestive of the work’s title, while Leppard/LPO [Philips ’71] opts for a more full-bodied and red-blooded approach that has an ardently Romantic appeal—neither resonates with me as wholly and strongly as Serebrier/SCO does, but I find both satisfying in their different ways. I’m variously less satisfied with the other recordings that I’ve heard over the years. I haven't heard another recording of the Czech Suite that I like nearly as well as Serebrier/SCO.


----------

