# Mahler First--Now What?



## RMinNJ (Apr 3, 2021)

Last week I saw the NY Phil perform Mahler's First Symphony at Carnegie Hall. I went to see Hilary Hahn perform Barber's Violin Concerto but fell utterly under the spell of Mahler. Have to admit this isn't a composer I have paid much attention to. I literally cannot stop listening to this symphony, hearing it in my head or thinking about when I can play a recording of it again. I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


----------



## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

You might want to check out this set. All there, and very nice. Of course there are various ‘one offs’ that some my like better, but in total, very good. If you have access to a streaming service, you may find it there as well.

I hope you enjoyed Hilary as well. A favorite of mine.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

The Song of the Earth. So far, I have recordings of it by Klemperer, Karajan, and Bernstein.


----------



## RMinNJ (Apr 3, 2021)

Bkeske said:


> You might want to check out this set. All there, and very nice. Of course there are various ‘one offs’ that some my like better, but in total, very good. If you have access to a streaming service, you may find it there as well.
> 
> I hope you enjoyed Hilary as well. A favorite of mine.


Thank you for the suggestion!
Hilary was spectacular. First time I had seen her perform live. She has many adoring fans and they all seemed to be at Carnegie Hall last week


----------



## 89Koechel (Nov 25, 2017)

Hmm, Das Lied von der Erde ... OK, go for the most-pessimistic of all Mahler! ... no kidding! Well, the Fourth Symphony is one of the "most-approachable", and it's had MANY, great interpretations - Szell, Mengelberg, Kletzki, Bruno Walter, Bernstein, et. al. Good luck!


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

I would sat, try the 4th next, last part has singing but you will be amazed. My personal favourite is the one with Lucia Popp. But there are many more, if you don't like singing take the 5th. bit longer but ...............some great music.


----------



## KevinW (Nov 21, 2021)

Huh, for nature themed music, check out Beethoven Pastoral!


----------



## CatchARisingStar (7 mo ago)

I have three versions of the 1st: 1. Bernstein/Concertgebouworkest Amsterdam 2. Hermus/Philharmonisches Orchester Hagen (Hamburg version) 3. Evelinde Trenkner & Sontraud Speidel (arr. for piano four hands). One of my favourite exercises is collecting piano versions of symphonies, no doubt influenced by Liszt.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Unless you strongly dislike singing, try Mahler's 2nd symphony and/or the 4th. If you are not (yet) fond of classical singing, try the 5th.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

The 'problem' I had (like the OP) was that I imprinted heavily on the 1st symphony and its still my favourite Mahler symphony and I have ridiculous numbers of recordings of it. However, none of the others sound much like it (or each other for that matter). Mahler was still the most difficult of the bigger name composers for me to crack, even more so than Sibelius (if he fits that criteria) probably because I don't like many vocal symphonies. Strangely it was the 4th that gave me a gateway into the rest of Mahler's symphonies probably as it's short and I loved the opening movement. Regulars on here will know what I think of the 8th  and the 3rd so if I was doing it all over again I'd probably do it the same personally - Symphonies 1 then 4, etc but the 5th is a great shout too. Btw, there's quite a few Mahler 1st threads and even a blog post (do a site search) but if you're looking for recommended recordings of Mahler 1sts there's loads in the thread linked below.









Mahler symphonies - No 1


I've really got into Mahler a lot more recently. I wondered whether we could give our favourite recordings of each symphony (and why) starting with no 1. I know we might have done this before but new recordings are constantly coming up.




www.talkclassical.com


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

KevinW said:


> Huh, for nature themed music, check out Beethoven Pastoral!


What would be better than Mahler?


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

Well, I first loved the 6th (though I knew bits of the 5th) and am used to Jansons with the LSO. It's 'heavier' than the 1st, but worth it for the beautiful Andante.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I honestly cannot remember but I think the first Mahler symphony I heard was the 4th and then either 2 or 1 (and then 5 or 9, not sure, but I was puzzled by #9 for quite a while, so #5 was certainly the next one I had on disc and listened to frequently and liked)


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd simply go chronologically, and be prepared that most Mahler symphonies need several spins to fully appreciate them. YT is not a good choice imo - either stream or buy one of the (often cheap) boxes with all symphonies, preferably including DLVDE and the 10th in one of the finished versions.


----------



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

What does everyone think of C. Kleiber’s version of Das lied von der erde? I never see it mentioned but he did a live performance and It’s on Spotify


----------



## oldpete (9 mo ago)

Go ahead with Mahler 2. Klemperer/Philharmonia, Solti/LSO, or any Chicago Symphony recordings are good.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Skip 2; move directly to 3. Then, if you like that, give 5 a listen. If you're still intrigued, then Das Lied von der Erde - his masterpiece. If those four works are agreeable and you're hooked, then pick up a complete set (Chailly, Bertini, Inbal, Bernstein...so many excellent choices) and wallow in them all.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I would never recommend that behemoth of the 3rd for a relative newbie. In a way it might be the most "Mahlerian" of the earlier ones but it is just toooo looooong, almost twice the 1st. And silly boy's choir is probably going to alienate more people than "Urlicht" in the 2nd.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

EvaBaron said:


> What does everyone think of C. Kleiber’s version of Das lied von der erde? I never see it mentioned but he did a live performance and It’s on Spotify


I had this 20 years ago and found the sound of that bootleg recording too insufficient to enjoy the performance. But I think it has since been appeared in better sound (although still far from studio quality) and it is pretty good (Kmentt and Ludwig, IIRC, basically in their late 1960s prime). Worth trying but not a first or second recommendation, I'd say.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> I would never recommend that behemoth of the 3rd for a relative newbie. In a way it might be the most "Mahlerian" of the earlier ones but it is just toooo looooong, almost twice the 1st. And silly boy's choir is probably going to alienate more people than "Urlicht" in the 2nd.


Hahaha. My sentiments exactly. It just seems to go on and on and on. It's an hour too long in my book and after struggling with it for years and then finding a few recordings I could 'just' about handle I've decided I can't be bothered sitting thru it anymore. As for the 8th I'd rather endure hard labour in Siberia or a seasoncard at Old Trafford.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

While you will see just about every possibility of 'now what', each of the symphonies are so different from the others that there is no right way to go about it, you just have to 'give it a go' and perhaps one will click, if not then go on and try the first sometime later.

P.S. Notwithstanding above comments, the 8th is great  
P.P.S. Don't ignore the full 10th completion.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Becca said:


> P.S. Notwithstanding above comments, the 8th is great
> P.P.S. Don't ignore the full 10th completion.


I'd ignore both, especially the completed 10th UNTIL I'd be familiar with all of the others and the orchestral Lieder and Das Lied von der Erde.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I would never recommend that behemoth of the 3rd for a relative newbie. In a way it might be the most "Mahlerian" of the earlier ones but it is just toooo looooong, almost twice the 1st. And silly boy's choir is probably going to alienate more people than "Urlicht" in the 2nd.


Hmm. As a newbie to classical music, never mind Mahler, about 35 years ago I stumbled across a second hand copy of M3 in a Hi-Fi shop. Vaclav Neuman, Czech Phil et al. Got it home started listening and never looked back. Quite removed from Can, Joy Division, Led Zeppelin and Miles Davis (hitherto music). I don't see why M3 should be a problem...


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd ignore both, especially the completed 10th UNTIL I'd be familiar with all of the others and the orchestral Lieder and Das Lied von der Erde.


...and I wouldn't and didn't.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Merl said:


> Hahaha. My sentiments exactly. It just seems to go on and on and on. It's an hour too long in my book and after struggling with it for years and then finding a few recordings I could 'just' about handle I've decided I can't be bothered sitting thru it anymore. As for the 8th I'd rather endure hard labour in Siberia or a *seasoncard* at Old Trafford.


'ello peeps. My name is Stavros and I come here for to say I got season card for football matches....

FFS! IT'S A *SEASON* *TICKET*!!!!!


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

HenryPenfold said:


> Hmm. As a newbie to classical music, never mind Mahler, about 35 years ago I stumbled across a second hand copy of M3 in a Hi-Fi shop. Vaclav Neuman, Czech Phil et al. Got it home started listening and never looked back. Quite removed from Can, Joy Division, Led Zeppelin and Miles Davis (hitherto music). I don't see why M3 should be a problem...


It's the longest symphony in the standard repertoire at aroudn 100 min. with full kitchen department going mad in some passages in the first (> 35 min, i.e. as long as a normal symphony) movement, endless scherzo movements in the middle, a silly boy's choir and a >20 min slow movement as finale. 
If you cannot see the many ways in which it _could_ (not necessarily but it's about probabilities) pose problems for someone mainly entranced by the comparably compact 1st, I don't know what to say.
I am not saying the 3rd (or the 8th) should be avoided at all cost but they are clearly not the obvious next step after the 1st.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> It's the longest symphony in the standard repertoire at aroudn 100 min. with full kitchen department going mad in some passages in the first (> 35 min, i.e. as long as a normal symphony) movement, endless scherzo movements in the middle, a silly boy's choir and a >20 min slow movement as finale.
> If you cannot see the many ways in which it _could_ (not necessarily but it's about probabilities) pose problems for someone mainly entranced by the comparably compact 1st, I don't know what to say.
> I am not saying the 3rd (or the 8th) should be avoided at all cost but they are clearly not the obvious next step after the 1st.


That rationale means a newbie should listen to Carnival Of The Animals and take it from there....


----------



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

A while back I listened to the 1st and also my first Mahler symphony and I thought it was too long. Don’t get me wrong I can take long symphonies like Beethoven’s 9th but this one seemed too long because there wasn’t enough to keep me hooked and it was too repetitive. Now of course I could change my mind about and I expect to but for now I will stay clear of Mahler


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

HenryPenfold said:


> That rationale means a newbie should listen to Carnival Of The Animals and take it from there....


Don't be silly. Mahler 1 was the given point of departure. But the twice as long 3rd is certainly not the most recommendable next point, just don't take your personal history in favor of the collective experience of 70-120 years of Mahler reception. It's like recommending the Art of Fuge or full St. Matthew right after someone liked the 3rd Brandenburg or toccata d minor.


----------



## RMinNJ (Apr 3, 2021)

Merl said:


> The 'problem' I had (like the OP) was that I imprinted heavily on the 1st symphony and its still my favourite Mahler symphony and I have ridiculous numbers of recordings of it. However, none of the others sound much like it (or each other for that matter). Mahler was still the most difficult of the bigger name composers for me to crack, even more so than Sibelius (if he fits that criteria) probably because I don't like many vocal symphonies. Strangely it was the 4th that gave me a gateway into the rest of Mahler's symphonies probably as it's short and I loved the opening movement. Regulars on here will know what I think of the 8th  and the 3rd so if I was doing it all over again I'd probably do it the same personally - Symphonies 1 then 4, etc but the 5th is a great shout too. Btw, there's quite a few Mahler 1st threads and even a blog post (do a site search) but if you're looking for recommended recordings of Mahler 1sts there's loads in the thread linked below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's great to know, thank you so much!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

YMMV, we shouldn't assume that the most obvious is what works for everyone ... I have a friend whose introduction to opera was attending a performance of Gotterdammerung, whereupon he wanted to see a complete Ring Cycle, which we did.


----------



## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

Holy smokes, if it’s good, who cares how long it is, or if it has choral or not, or whatever. Music is about exploration. I don’t have anyone telling me that I must listen to ’this’, then progress to ‘that’.

This all seems so silly to me. You won’t die by listening to something you may not like or fully understand….just have fun and enjoy the journey. It ain’t that hard.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Don't be silly. Mahler 1 was the given point of departure. But the twice as long 3rd is certainly not the most recommendable next point, just don't take your personal history in favor of the collective experience of 70-120 years of Mahler reception. It's like recommending the Art of Fuge or full St. Matthew right after someone liked the 3rd Brandenburg or toccata d minor.


I'm mostly silly, so that won't change.

Seriously though, I'd question the domain assumptions. Why does it matter that M3 is on average half an hour longer? What are we saying about RMinNJ (and others) if we think she can't stay a little longer in her seat, listening? Are we not infantilising her? Who knows, she may have more stamina than you or I. And her brain might be able to stick with it.

Not sure why we so often make parental/superior assumptions about this matter


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

HenryPenfold said:


> 'ello peeps. My name is Stavros and I come here for to say I got season card for football matches....
> 
> FFS! IT'S A *SEASON* *TICKET*!!!!!
> 
> ...


In today's lingo its a seasoncard, Henry, and George Best would have' tekkers'. Now get down with the kids, you old fuddy-duddy! 😜


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Merl said:


> In today's lingo its a seasoncard, Henry, and George Best would have' tekkers'. Now get down with the kids, you old fuddy-duddy! 😜


I aint calling it a feckin' season card, not while I've got an 'ole in me arsenal. Done with Father's Day, today - half of 'em don't mean it!


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

No love for the 3rd? I'm perplexed. Long, yes it is, but it is not twice the length of the 1st. Only 50% greater. And only 15 minutes longer than 2, 5, 6, 7 or so. 

What is has going for it: thrilling orchestration from first to last. That's what got be hooked on it: just the sounds. Those horns! The big trombone solo. The achingly beautiful post horn solos. The orchestral contribution in the fifth movement with the young chorus is delightful. Then the triumphant, exhilarating ending with two timpanists! The 3rd is a feast for the ear with more variety than any of the symphonies, save possibly the 7th. Take it in chunks - that first movement is long, but what a thrill ride it is! Just make sure you have a recording with great sound and a system than can play it back well. The recording that hooked my (and is still one of the best) was Levine with Chicago.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

In my opinion the 2nd and the 3rd have most in common with the 1st symphony; they are also undoubtedly amongst his best and most inspired symphonies so I would recommend those two for sure. At the time Mahler was still inventing new things and sounded FRESH. For the 2nd, either Klemperer/Philharmonia or Rattle/Berlin. For the 3rd I would go with either Chailly or Bernstein.

After 2nd and 3rd, I would go for the 5th and the 6th (with a version with Andante first, Scherzo second).

With the 9th you should be aware that it is overorchestrated (Mahler didn´t have the chance to adjust the orchestration) and needs a great conductor to balance the thickness out. When done correctly, it is a gorgeous piece of music.

The 4th is like a miniature combination of the elements of the first 3 symphonies. It is beautiful.

I cannot recommend the 7th or the 8th Symphony with a clear conscience. Uninspired, recycled material, Mahler repeating himself. Luckily he found himself again with the 9th.


----------



## Forster (Apr 22, 2021)

RMinNJ said:


> [...]Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it? [...]


It seems that, according to some replies you've received, to even ask the question is a blasphemy against music. It's certainly a mistake for anyone with an opinion of Mahler and courteous enough to want to reply to make any kind of assumptions about what you liked about the 1st, and how their experience might be useful in helping you decide, "What next?"

Well, as they say in Yorkshire, "There's nowt so queer as folk!" and clearly, nowt so queer as folk what listens to classical music.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Forster said:


> It seems that, according to some replies you've received, to even ask the question is a blasphemy against music. It's certainly a mistake for anyone with an opinion of Mahler and courteous enough to want to reply to make any kind of assumptions about what you liked about the 1st, and how their experience might be useful in helping you decide, "What next?"
> 
> Well, as they say in Yorkshire, "There's nowt so queer as folk!" and clearly, nowt so queer as folk what listens to classical music.


!


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I love half of Mahler's symphonies and am indifferent to the other half. The 1st is among my favourites along with 2nd, 3rd and 5th. The 4th is just OK and I am trying really hard to understand why so many rave about the 9th. I don't care at all about the 7th or 8th or even the 6th.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> I'd ignore both, especially the completed 10th UNTIL I'd be familiar with all of the others and the orchestral Lieder and Das Lied von der Erde.


Why?


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Perhaps we should take a steer from Mahler himself on this question.

Mahler wrote the second next. If he thought that music in th second didn't follow on, he would have perhaps written the seventh next - but he didn't, he went straight for the second.

Is that not good enough for us?


----------



## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

@HenryPenfold Good enough for me


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Bkeske said:


> @HenryPenfold Good enough for me


😃


----------



## Bkeske (Feb 27, 2019)

Personally I love hearing the transition a composer makes. Probably at the top of my list for that is Sibelius, as he changed so much.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Bkeske said:


> Personally I love hearing the transition a composer makes. Probably at the top of my list for that is Sibelius, as he changed so much.


Yes, the development/transition in Sibelius' 7 symphonies is remarkable....


----------



## EvaBaron (Jan 3, 2022)

When I don’t know a single work of a cycle i try to begin at the beginning and go through them chronologically. But sometimes the later works are better which might discourage you from going on. Now with what I’ve read about Mahler’s symphonies that won’t be a problem here. But in general it can be, for example with Beethoven string quartets.


----------



## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

Mahler's 2nd, Mahler's 8th & Mahler's 9th.

Mahler's 8th is great to see live, as you get the chorus blowing everything away.


----------



## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Ethereality said:


> What would be better than Mahler?



About 20 other composers! And I actually like some works by Mahler, but I don't seem to accord him the same degree of adulation most of the members on this forum seem to.

The OP seems in awe of at least his first symphony, so good for her. I personally like the first 3 movements of his second symphony (he loses me with the sung portion of the symphony), as well as his fourth. His 5th as well as the 1st are listenable. I never liked the rest of his musical output.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Ethereality said:


> What would be better than Mahler?


Debussy, maybe (for nature music, not in general)


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Kreisler jr said:


> I would never recommend that behemoth of the 3rd for a relative newbie. In a way it might be the most "Mahlerian" of the earlier ones but it is just toooo looooong, almost twice the 1st. And silly boy's choir is probably going to alienate more people than "Urlicht" in the 2nd.


The third was the first to truly blow my mind.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

clavichorder said:


> The third was the first to truly blow my mind.


Try Tennstedt's live recording of the 3rd for the "it" factor.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Also don't be afraid of the 9th just because it's the last. It is a wonderful work of unsurpassed depth.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The 8th is still my least favorite. It doesn't have quite the emotional range and nuance of the others somehow despite all it's magnificent bluster, force and orchestration. I heard the 6th live earlier this year, now that is literally a killer of a work.


----------



## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> I would never recommend that behemoth of the 3rd for a relative newbie. In a way it might be the most "Mahlerian" of the earlier ones but it is just toooo looooong, almost twice the 1st. And silly boy's choir is probably going to alienate more people than "Urlicht" in the 2nd.


When I listen to the third, I don't listen to it all in one go.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

AlexD said:


> Mahler's 2nd, Mahler's 8th & Mahler's 9th.
> 
> Mahler's 8th is great to see live, as you get the chorus blowing everything away.


I do not like the eighth. I've tried. Many recordings I own. Seen it performed twice in London (Gatti Royal Philharmonic & Gergiev LSO). Just does not work for me.


----------



## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

haziz said:


> About 20 other composers! And I actually like some works by Mahler, but I don't seem to accord him the same degree of adulation most of the members on this forum seem to.
> 
> The OP seems in awe of at least his first symphony, so good for her. I personally like the first 3 movements of his second symphony (he loses me with the sung portion of the symphony), as well as his fourth. His 5th as well as the 1st are listenable. I never liked the rest of his musical output.


----------



## RMinNJ (Apr 3, 2021)

Forster said:


> It seems that, according to some replies you've received, to even ask the question is a blasphemy against music. It's certainly a mistake for anyone with an opinion of Mahler and courteous enough to want to reply to make any kind of assumptions about what you liked about the 1st, and how their experience might be useful in helping you decide, "What next?"
> 
> Well, as they say in Yorkshire, "There's nowt so queer as folk!" and clearly, nowt so queer as folk what listens to classical music.


People can make assumptions based on their own connection to the piece and knowledge of the composer's work in totality. I think that was the point. Also I did mention what I liked about it.


----------



## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Rückert-Lieder and other orchestral lieder | Janet Baker / John Barbirolli


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

I don't understand the Das Lied von Der Erde recommendation. It is nothing like the 1st symphony. In fact, it is a very odd symphony; it is an orchestral song cycle and it is sung throughout. And it is quite the bore (there are some interesting bits in movements 3 and 4). Some consider it the best Mahler work (even the great Bernstein thought it was Mahler's greatest symphony). There is no accounting for taste


----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

All of the Mahler Symphonies are good. There is no recycled material. Thats nonsense. They all stand alone. And as was mentioned ( i did a thread on this awhile back) you dont have to do the whole symphony at once, I routinely "split" them. Dont shy away from 3. The final movement is trancendant and moving.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> All of the Mahler Symphonies are good. There is no recycled material. Thats nonsense. They all stand alone. And as was mentioned ( i did a thread on this awhile back) you dont have to do the whole symphony at once, I routinely "split" them. Dont shy away from 3. The final movement is trancendant and moving.


Please describe an element or a theme or something profound about the 7th Symphony that has not been executed better in a previous Mahler symphony, especially the 5th and the 6th.

For me the Mahler 7th Symphony is a prime example of a composition constructed out of habit without the true need for expression or driving original ideas. So it is just Mahler recycling himself: this is how a Mahler symphony is done, let’s spin the wheel. Let’s do some forever marching.

I call the 7th and the 8th The Exhausted Symphonies and have chosen to some extent ignore them for the benefit of Mahler The Great.

For me, Mahler is a composer of 7 great symphonies and the 7th in the cycle is the 9th. And what a great cycle of 7 symphonies it is!


----------



## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

The first Mahler symphony I heard was also no. 1 and very soon my favourite became no. 3 so it makes sense for someone who has fallen in love with the first to continue with the stylistically somewhat related Wunderhorn 2-4. There's no guarantee whatsoever that something like 7 or 9 will appeal as they inhabit completely different worlds (from each other as well) and indeed it was decades later that no,10 took over for me


----------



## Marc Papeghin (7 mo ago)

RMinNJ said:


> Last week I saw the NY Phil perform Mahler's First Symphony at Carnegie Hall. I went to see Hilary Hahn perform Barber's Violin Concerto but fell utterly under the spell of Mahler. Have to admit this isn't a composer I have paid much attention to. I literally cannot stop listening to this symphony, hearing it in my head or thinking about when I can play a recording of it again. I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


I was in the exact same case when I discovered the 1st, I would listen to it over and over again and then saw there were 9 more... where do you go from there indeed ?
Well like it was mentioned before, I just followed the natural order he composed them in !
But it takes times to fully "digest" them, some being less "accessible" than others.
So if I were you, I would now dive into No. 2 "Resurrection" !
Which has probably my favorite Finale of all of his symphonies 

_"Zu Gott wird es dich tragen!"_
Absolutely transcendental music.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Waehnen said:


> Please describe an element or a theme or something profound about the 7th Symphony that has not been executed better in a previous Mahler symphony, especially the 5th and the 6th.
> 
> For me the Mahler 7th Symphony is a prime example of a composition constructed out of habit without the true need for expression or driving original ideas. So it is just Mahler recycling himself: this is how a Mahler symphony is done, let’s spin the wheel. Let’s do some forever marching.
> 
> ...


I really enjoy the 1st mvt and both Nachtmusik movements of the 7th but I am not as crazy about the finale. To me the 1st movement of the 7th is very different, it is absolutely at home and refined regarding the orchestration that was so novel in the 6th symphony. It hits hard and I have no reservations about it, and then the interior movements are actually very lovely and soothing. The symphony as a whole works for me because even though I'm not crazy about the finale, it seems like a disguised "let down". I think the truth for me about the 8th and 7th lie somewhere in the middle from the extremes of being called "recycled material" and being regarding amongst the best works. The 8th to me is probably best enjoyed live, and I have not experienced that, but I agree that it is the one I go to least in recording.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

clavichorder said:


> I really enjoy the 1st mvt and both Nachtmusik movements of the 7th but I am not as crazy about the finale. To me the 1st movement of the 7th is very different, it is absolutely at home and refined regarding the orchestration that was so novel in the 6th symphony. It hits hard and I have no reservations about it, and then the interior movements are actually very lovely and soothing. The symphony as a whole works for me because even though I'm not crazy about the finale, it seems like a disguised "let down". I think the truth for me about the 8th and 7th lie somewhere in the middle from the extremes of being called "recycled material" and being regarding amongst the best works. The 8th to me is probably best enjoyed live, and I have not experienced that, but I agree that it is the one I go to least in recording.


I have a hunch or a feeling that just maybe American people might like the 7th Symphony more than Europeans. Americans often have no problems with music that sounds 'cinematic' and I might even consider Americans artistically more open-minded than us Europeans.

It is wonderful that people really like the 7th Symphony by Mahler although for me it is just unbearable. There must be something that makes people feel at home with the music. I would say it must be the cinematic atmosphere of it, created by the orchestration and the harmonies. That is the only explanation I have, for it cannot be the melodic themes, the utterly boring constant marching rhythm, the overall structure or the drama (there is none).

Maybe the 7th Symphony really is movie music before the movies and that´s why it resonates? The constant flow of episodic music, scenes following each other. You just let Mahler babble and you relax?


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Waehnen said:


> I have a hunch or a feeling that just maybe American people might like the 7th Symphony more than Europeans. Americans often have no problems with music that sounds 'cinematic' and I might even consider Americans artistically more open-minded than us Europeans.
> 
> It is wonderful that people really like the 7th Symphony by Mahler although for me it is just unbearable. There must be something that makes people feel at home with the music. I would say it must be the cinematic atmosphere of it, created by the orchestration and the harmonies. That is the only explanation I have, for it cannot be the melodic themes, the utterly boring constant marching rhythm, the overall structure or the drama (there is none).
> 
> Maybe the 7th Symphony really is movie music before the movies and that´s why it resonates? The constant flow of episodic music, scenes following each other. You just let Mahler babble and you relax?


Well and that 1st mvt is harmonically VERY bold and the orchestration utterly modern. It is basically anticipating Shostakovich, Bartok, Prokofiev or late Nielsen. And despite the themes being a little more obscure, it does have a cohesive structure to me in the sense all Mahler does where time is relative but all encompassing somehow due to the lack of rigid forms of repetition, the constant variation(not a knock on Bruckner though, he does what he does very well and it is also genius). I actually just took it with me on a walk and was thrilled with all the movements and then the walk ended just at the end of Nachtmusik II so I guess I missed my opportunity to reassess the finale. Oh well. Another time. 

I guess I can relate to it being cinematic, except the orchestration is far superior, haha.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm not an absolute Mahlerian either. Mahler is currently among my favorites and has been for the last several years, but to me he is toe to toe with Bruckner in a very different way(Bruckner's 9th hits harder than any Mahler piece for me even, despite me liking more Mahler symphonies more whole heartedly). And then Scriabin's Poeme of Ecstasy for me is the ultimate in late romantic early modern maximalism. And I'm also a piano enthusiast and love to play his works. And I would never underestimate Debussy for just turning all the rules upside down and still sounding like nature intended it to be so.


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I forgot to mention that I can actually relate to the OP with being enthralled with my experience of hearing Mahler 1 live. When I was a teen,12 long years ago now, and I first heard the first on the limited youtube of the late 2000s, I was rather unable to understand the hype. To me it sounded like a confusing and static collage of styles. Upon slowly absorbing it more, I came to really catch onto some of the themes and loved just whipping them out on the piano in the middle of choir class to mess with people haha. It wasn't till I was 23 and in a wild time of my life, that I really just fell in love with the whole work and the menacing cyclone and extreme heroism of the finale seemed to be the soundtrack of my life. And then a few years ago at 27 I got to hear the work live conducted by Dausgaard at the Seattle symphony, and was totally captivated by the concert, zoned in completely. 

It still baffles me why audiences were so cold to it in 1880s to 1900s Europe. It has such a magic about it.


----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> Please describe an element or a theme or something profound about the 7th Symphony that has not been executed better in a previous Mahler symphony, especially the 5th and the 6th.
> 
> For me the Mahler 7th Symphony is a prime example of a composition constructed out of habit without the true need for expression or driving original ideas. So it is just Mahler recycling himself: this is how a Mahler symphony is done, let’s spin the wheel. Let’s do some forever marching.
> 
> ...


Hey you seem to analyze the Mahler Symphonies much more closely than me. Mahler 7 is very good. Is it similar in some ways to 6? Maybe. So what though. It almost seems like you have an ax to grind with that symphony. Listen and enjoy. They are all good


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

I would work through Bruckner first and then come back to Mahler.

Bruckner laid the foundation that Mahler built the house upon which Schoenberg then gut-rehabbed which Webern then re-modeled which Berg then torched for the insurance money.

This is an interesting article written by Bruno Walter in 1940 - "Bruckner and Mahler" -









Classical Net - Bruckner and Mahler - Observations by Bruno Walter


The Classical Net web site offers a comprehensive collection of information and news on classical music subjects including articles and CD reviews, composers and their music, the basic repertoire, recommended recordings and a CD buying guide. The site now features over 9000 files of information...



www.classical.net


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I don't understand the Das Lied von Der Erde recommendation.... It is quite the bore....There is no accounting for taste


There certainly is no accounting for taste. DLVDE boring? As William Steinberg once said to a young Simon Rattle: "Es ist nicht fur Kinder!"


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

mbhaub said:


> There certainly is no accounting for taste. DLVDE boring? As William Steinberg once said to a young Simon Rattle: "Es ist nicht fur Kinder!"


Well, of course it isn't for children, none of Mahler's music is. But it is dull nonetheless except for a few moments here and there in the 3rd and 4th movements. Your experience may vary, naturally.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> I have a hunch or a feeling that just maybe American people might like the 7th Symphony more than Europeans. Americans often have no problems with music that sounds 'cinematic' and I might even consider Americans artistically more open-minded than us Europeans.
> 
> It is wonderful that people really like the 7th Symphony by Mahler although for me it is just unbearable. There must be something that makes people feel at home with the music. I would say it must be the cinematic atmosphere of it, created by the orchestration and the harmonies. That is the only explanation I have, for it cannot be the melodic themes, the utterly boring constant marching rhythm, the overall structure or the drama (there is none).
> 
> *Maybe the 7th Symphony really is movie music* before the movies and that´s why it resonates? The constant flow of episodic music, scenes following each other. You just let Mahler babble and you relax?


I'll consider responding when I stop laughing.

P.S. I'm English which, at least the last time I checked, is part of Europe.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

clavichorder said:


> I'm not an absolute Mahlerian either. Mahler is currently among my favorites and has been for the last several years, but to me he is toe to toe with Bruckner in a very different way(Bruckner's 9th hits harder than any Mahler piece for me even, despite me liking more Mahler symphonies more whole heartedly). And then Scriabin's Poeme of Ecstasy for me is the ultimate in late romantic early modern maximalism. And I'm also a piano enthusiast and love to play his works. And I would never underestimate Debussy for just turning all the rules upside down and still sounding like nature intended it to be so.


Thank you both, clavichorder and golfer, for expressing that there might be something cinematic about the 7th symphony; and that in the process of accepting the symphony it might help to accept that there is a lot of the same in previous Mahler symphonies, and not perceive it as a problem.

But please explain — why always the marching rhythm? The only contrast is some other dancelike hopping around. Rhythmically the 7th shows more lack of imagination than any other major composition I can think of.

I am a rhythmic guy, I just cannot stand the constant marching, it is unbelievably annoying. There’s my axe to grind.

It would appear to me that Mahler was not cabable of creating anything but marches, ländlers, waltzes, hymns and the slow movements (which also have a lot in common with each other).


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> I'll consider responding when I stop laughing.
> 
> P.S. I'm English which, at least the last time I checked, is part of Europe.


So you are not really into my semitheory on 7th The Cinematic? 

Sure there are people from Europe here! I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Mahler's 7th "From The New World." That's rich. And next again on the recommendation list. I just got done with Barbirolli's 5th I had tucked away and was stunned and rolled away like as a kid reading their first high fantasy/renaissance novel. Definitely cinematic to my ears, heck, I don't know the difference between your kind of cinematic sound, but I'll try and hear for it when I get to the 7th, but when I really step outside for a bit and take a breather, part of me feels as though Mahler gets more logical and cohesive than Wagner, the latter who delves more into an ongoing expressive development, or evolution. And that made less sense than your thing.



clavichorder said:


> I forgot to mention that I can actually relate to the OP with being enthralled with my experience of hearing Mahler 1 live. When I was a teen,12 long years ago now, and I first heard the first on the limited youtube of the late 2000s, I was rather unable to understand the hype.


That experience of hearing blobs or strange untimely notes rings a bell to my experience with other composers as a child. Like when I heard Rachmaninoff I thought "How can anyone understand this? But I sorta _do." _ Like a next level or language meant for the few. With Mahler's 1st I just felt immense depth: Theme of the Wayfarer is what Mahler wrote initially. The themes and orchestration of Titan is so rich and evocative, but is it just me or does it simply feel less complex than his others?


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Ethereality said:


> Mahler's 7th "From The New World." That's rich. And next again on the recommendation list. I just got done with Barbirolli's 5th I had tucked away and was stunned and rolled away like as a kid reading their first high fantasy/renaissance novel. Definitely cinematic to my ears, heck, I don't know the difference between your kind of cinematic sound, but I'll try and hear for it when I get to the 7th, but when I really step outside for a bit and take a breather, part of me feels as though Mahler gets more logical and cohesive than Wagner, the latter who delves more into an ongoing expressive development, or evolution. And that made less sense than your thing.
> 
> 
> 
> That experience of hearing blobs or strange untimely notes rings a bell to my experience with other composers as a child. Like when I heard Rachmaninoff I thought "How can anyone understand this? But I sorta _do." _ Like a next level or language meant for the few. With Mahler's 1st I just felt immense depth: Theme of the Wayfarer is what Mahler wrote initially. The themes and orchestration of Titan is so rich and evocative, but is it just me or does it simply feel less complex than his others?


What makes the 7th cinematic to me is the lack of a high profile symphonic themes and motives. There is not a single interesting melody or rhythmic gesture. This lack of high profile elements makes the music episodic and cinematic and artistically lazy.

Should someone disagree with me, I beg you to point out a specific gesture that is of a high symphonic profile. Something defining, like the tatata-daa from the Beethoven 5th.


----------



## Bryangth (8 mo ago)

RMinNJ said:


> ...What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


Either Das Lied von der Erde or the 5th. But your goal eventually is the 10th. You are on a thrilling and wonderful adventure, and the 1st (Titan) was the place I always put people for starters on Mahler. Oh, and one more thing, if you can find the little video Mahler - Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen - Ging Heut' Morgen Uber's Feld, that would be a nice little after dinner drink after the 1st. If you can:

Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau sings: "Ging heut' Morgen übers Feld"





Scrumptious.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Becca said:


> P.S. *I'm English which, at least the last time I checked, is part of Europe.*


Grudgingly...


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Shaughnessy said:


> Grudgingly...


We've been trying to get away from it ever since the Devensian glacial period but it's been slow going.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Bryangth said:


> Either Das Lied von der Erde or the 5th. But your goal eventually is the 10th. You are on a thrilling and wonderful adventure, and *the 1st (Titan) *was the place I always put people for starters on Mahler. Oh, and one more thing, if you can find the little video Mahler - Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen - Ging Heut' Morgen Uber's Feld, that would be a nice little after dinner drink after the 1st. If you can:


Can we please, please stop using 'Titan' for the 1st symphony - Mahler only ever applied that to two performances of the previous 5 movement 'symphonic poem' and he completely dropped it prior to reworking it into the current form.


----------



## stevechandlermusic (8 mo ago)

I was introduced to Mahler with the 2nd symphony as a college freshman. I'm now 68 and have loved Mahler's music since. As others have made clear very few like everything the man wrote. So I generally don't listen to symphonies 6,7,8, and 9, but Der Abshied (The Farewell) from DLVDE hits me hard because it reminds me of my mother's death in 1974. My favorites are the 5th and the 2nd. I enjoy the 1st well enough but the ending reminds me of an oatmeal commercial back in the day. The last movement of the 3rd strikes me as a long slow comfortable screw with the necessary climax where everything comes together on one note for a moment at the very end... in other words very enjoyable listening!


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Becca said:


> Can we please, please stop using 'Titan' for the 1st symphony - Mahler only ever applied that to two performances of the previous 5 movement 'symphonic poem' and he completely dropped it prior to reworking it into the current form.


Titan has been recorded - notably by Les Siecles, Francois-Xavier Roth - and is indeed a different work.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't really get the love of some and the dislike of others. They are all fine works and all very different from each other. I suspect that listeners who dislike some of the symphonies are looking for something that they got out of one their loved and not finding it. I do acknowledge, though, that you need to find a gateway performance for each work and that this is harder for some than for others. Still, the man was a giant and a very great symphonist and everything he wrote is worth any hard work that it seems to demand.


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

Bkeske said:


> You might want to check out this set. All there, and very nice. Of course there are various ‘one offs’ that some my like better, but in total, very good. If you have access to a streaming service, you may find it there as well.
> 
> I hope you enjoyed Hilary as well. A favorite of mine.


One of the great mysteries to me is why didn't Chailly record _Das Lied von der Erde_? I mean he recorded other song cycles, but this one. Anyway, I'd recommend his cycle, too, especially for the performances of the 3rd and 9th, which are some of the best on record, IMHO.


----------



## hoodjem (Feb 23, 2019)

I also came to Mahler initially through his first symphony. It is probably the simplest, least "heavy," most charming, and easiest to get to know. (No denigration intended; it is still one of my favorite Mahler symphonies.)

After it, I echo the suggestion to try the fourth symphony. Its relative brevity is appealing, and the third movement is exceptionally lovely.

When you have the time and inclination you can get into the second and third symphonies, which are longer, heavier, more complicated, and take more patience and stamina. After that when you are deeply familiar with Mahler's spiritual, superstitious, and mystical predilections, the sky is the limit--or, of course, one can always proceed chronologically. And don't forget his orchestral songs. Wonderful!

Today, I like them all, (except for maybe the seventh symphony, but I trust that one day it too will come).
Happy listening!


----------



## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

RMinNJ said:


> Last week I saw the NY Phil perform Mahler's First Symphony at Carnegie Hall. I went to see Hilary Hahn perform Barber's Violin Concerto but fell utterly under the spell of Mahler. Have to admit this isn't a composer I have paid much attention to. I literally cannot stop listening to this symphony, hearing it in my head or thinking about when I can play a recording of it again. I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


I hate to say this and this is as a hardcore Mahlerian, but the 1st symphony is one of my least favorite works from him. I can certainly relate to your enthusiasm for this symphony and, more importantly, this composer. I believe Rogerx recommended trying the 4th symphony next and I would agree this would be a great place to go next. It's a world apart from the 1st in many ways, but it's one of his more accessible symphonies and the last movement with a soprano is gorgeous beyond belief. Also, the 4th ends his "Wunderhorn" period. The 5th symphony begins a completely new period for the composer stylistically. Anyway, here are some performances of the 4th that I love and hope you will check out (in no particular order):


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> I don't really get the love of some and the dislike of others. They are all fine works and all very different from each other. I suspect that listeners who dislike some of the symphonies are looking for something that they got out of one their loved and not finding it. I do acknowledge, though, that you need to find a gateway performance for each work and that this is harder for some than for others. Still, the man was a giant and a very great symphonist and everything he wrote is worth any hard work that it seems to demand.


What if I told you that in symphonies 1-6 and 9 there are musical themes, melodies, motives and rhythms that I actually do care for -- and none of those qualities can be found in the 7th? Of course I am looking for the kind of quality I have learned to like in this musical life of mine and feel disappointed when the 7th offers me basically nothing!

Do you find the 7th rhythmically innovative? Do you have strong impactful rhythms there? Do you have great melodies that make your heart sing? Do you have great drama? Do you get catharsis out of the great architecture and plot?

(NONE OF THAT IN THE 7TH.)

Like I said before, the only theory I have on the 7th is the appeal of 'the cinematic approach'. That would mean that the 7th is a kind of an episodic soundtrack and not a symphony like other Mahler symphonies.

I find comfort in knowing there must be some objective reasons behind the 7th being ranked lowest Mahler Symphony both here on TC and on the classicalmusiconly list.

Anyhow, I should stop wondering how it is possible that people like this symphony. And the lovers of this symphony should stop wondering how it is possible to dislike it. 

I must admit, one reason I keep on talking about the 7th Symphony must be that the unnecessary hype brings this fairytale to mind:

*The Emperor's New Clothes*
*Des Kaisers neue Kleider*

The other reason is that I have tried my very best to like the work (with multiple recordings) but whenever I listen to it, I find myself in deep disbelief: _how can people consider this ******** a great symphony?_

I am sorry and will move forwards. If you ever hear me talk about the Mahler 7th again, please point out to me I promised not to.


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Enthusiast said:


> *Titan has been recorded - notably by Les Siecles, Francois-Xavier Roth - and is indeed a different work."*












"But it’s the second version, the five-movement symphonic poem of 1893, that Les Siècles play here, swapping their usual French-made woodwind and brass instruments for turn-of-the-20th-century German and Viennese equivalents to make their first recorded foray into the Austro-German repertoire. With the exception of the rather cheaply sentimental Blumine (“Flowers”) movement, which comes second in this scheme, and mostly minor details of scoring elsewhere, the substance of the music is very much the same as it is in Mahler’s First Symphony as we usually hear it nowadays."









Mahler: Titan review – period instrument insights into a beautiful mind


Before Mahler’s First Symphony reached its final form, it was a ‘tone poem’, well revived here on German and Viennese instruments




www.theguardian.com





"If you're at all interested in orchestration then it's fascinating to be able to see the hundreds of tiny changes that Mahler made, and, in conjunction with this wonderful recording, to hear the impact that they make on the mood and emotion of the piece…The more incisive attack and articulation of the gut strings combined with the smaller bore of the brass instruments reveals one of this performance's major virtues: you can hear a wealth of detail in Mahler's string writing that often gets buried under loud brass chords."
- Presto Music review

"The references to Beethoven, Brahms and Schumann in Mahler’s First only make it sound more revolutionary, and never more so than in this exhilarating account by Roth’s brilliant period-instrument band, whose woodwind and brass are playing on Austro-German instruments."
- The Sunday Times

"The recording sticks a feather in the cap of Les Siècles, among the most adaptable and engaging of today’s historically informed ensembles formed in the image of their director… I applaud, too, Roth’s unabashed commitment to those passages where Mahler himself later had second thoughts – deft and ingenious ones, to be sure, but thinning out its red blood cells in the process.. a required supplement to any decent-size Mahler library."
- Gramophone

"I actually have this... I haven't listened to it yet...It's still in the original shrink-wrap... I'm still kind of on the fence as to whether I like it or not... Maybe actually listening to it may temper my ambivalence."
- Shaughnessy


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

If anyone wants to listen to "Titan" - this is the link which leads to the complete label authorized release -



https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nK34EoWQHz3Gf5tGhnvHyzZIspVhiqI8E


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Taken from this webpage - which is gustavmahler.com - A great resource -



https://gustavmahler.com/



Really very nice back-story on the First - 



https://gustavmahler.com/symphonies/mahler-symphony-1.html


----------



## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

Neo Romanza said:


> One of the great mysteries to me is why didn't Chailly record _Das Lied von der Erde_? I mean he recorded other song cycles, but this one. Anyway, I'd recommend his cycle, too, especially for the performances of the 3rd and 9th, which are some of the best on record, IMHO.


Completely agree with the Chailly recommendation. Outstanding set.


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Shaughnessy said:


> https://www.talkclassical.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.talkclassical.com/attachments/1655918550109-png.170000/


Sorry that just made it harder. I'll stick with the "one that has the part that reminds me of a knight fellowship montage" or the "one that reminds me of a flying whale" or the... well, something I'll definitely remember that no one else seems to know what I mean 😋


----------



## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

*Mahler: Symphony No. 1 in D major 'Titan'*

Düsseldorfer Symphoniker, Ádám Fischer










Gramophone Magazine
April 2018
Editor's Choice









BBC Music Magazine
May 2018
Orchestral Choice









Presto Editor's Choice
February 2018









Presto Recordings of the Year
Finalist 2018









BBC Music Magazine Awards
2019
Finalist - Orchestral









BBC Music Magazine Awards
2019
Winner - Orchestral


----------



## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Yeah, but the point doesn't seem to be ie. remembering that there's a trumpet solo or baritone horn solo, or how long the choir sang, the point seems to be more about what the composer can achieve psychologically in us internally, that lets us remember and identify with their art deeply: Any composer can write a trumpet solo or have choir here or there, it's not something I particularly remember well for some reason.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Shaughnessy said:


> "But it’s the second version, the five-movement symphonic poem of 1893, that Les Siècles play here, swapping their usual French-made woodwind and brass instruments for turn-of-the-20th-century German and Viennese equivalents to make their first recorded foray into the Austro-German repertoire. With the exception of the rather cheaply sentimental Blumine (“Flowers”) movement, which comes second in this scheme, and mostly minor details of scoring elsewhere, the substance of the music is very much the same as it is in Mahler’s First Symphony as we usually hear it nowadays."


Yes, I noticed that later. But I still hear it as a very different work. The Blumine movement completely changes the structure for me.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have seen comments long ago by musicology professors that the first movement of the 7th was one of the most subtle and complex in all of Mahler (together with 9,i probably). It's far less "constant" marching than the 6th. There is also no marching in the 2nd Nachtmusik. And the first Nachtmusik might be like a night walk but it's such a wonderful "mood piece", not at all a military march (if this is movie music, so be it, I don't think it is any more/less movie music than e.g. Sibelius that is always connected with lakes and landscapes)
It's true that there are some similarities to 5 and 6th. One might say either that the 7th is a more positive version of the tragic 6th or an "expanded version" of the 5th but there are still lots of differences. The first mvtm. of the 7th is quite unique, compared to the first two movements of the 5th and the very straightforward and "classical" 6,i. Both 5 and 6 also mostly lack the nature connotations of the 7th that connects it back to the first 3 symphonies. The pivotal huge scherzo of the 5th is also without real parallel in the two following symphonies.

In general, from around 30 years of both listening to Mahler and following discussion about his music, I have the firm impression that 3, 7 and 8 (and the completed 10th, but I don't really count that one) are the most controversial, even among Mahlerians. From looking into the history of recordings and performances it is also clear that 1,2,4 and then 5 or 9 were for a long time by far the most frequently recorded and performed. Sure, in cases like 3 and 8 this has a lot to do with sheer length or number of musicians but that's not the only reason. Therefore I think there is some wisdom in these typical recommendations and progressions (it's not really about my personal taste, I love the 9th but I think it would be a tough nut for many Mahler newbies, so would recommend to try some others before, similarly for the 7th).


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> I don't understand the Das Lied von Der Erde recommendation. It is nothing like the 1st symphony. In fact, it is a very odd symphony; it is an orchestral song cycle and it is sung throughout. And it is quite the bore (there are some interesting bits in movements 3 and 4).


It's a great work and a favorite of mine, so I understand the recommendation but I tend to agree that it is not really helped by being called a symphony. 
One can find some kind of arc (I think it is more poetic than musical) between the first and last movement but it's mostly very "undramatic" for a symphony and 3/6 movements are fairly light "intermezzi". The only really dramatic movement is the first that is a bit too short to bear the weight of a symphonic first movement, the second one might be large scale for a lied but barely serves for a Mahler symphonic slow movement and the following 3 are scherzando/intermezzi more on the scale of ordinary lieder; I love "Von der Schönheit" but all 3 are slight for a "symphony". The finale obviously is not, it does have symphonic dimensions and weight but it's also quite rhapsodic and long, unless one is captured by the melancholy mood it could be taxing.
That's why I'd recommend first the "Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen" and "Wunderhorn" along with the early symphonies, or even before them. Some are quoted explicitly, many share the moods evoked and I found them a very good approach to Mahler's general "poetics of music".


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


>


I think eventually I have to get some of these Abbado recordings with the "feather covers", regardless of the music, I am just in love with these covers!


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Given that Mahler started work on the 7th immediately after finishing the 6th (not his normal process) I look on the 6th and 7th as a contiguous pair with the 7th pulling Mahler back after bleak ending of the 6th. Likewise the 9th and 10th form a somewhat similar pairing.


----------



## fluteman (Dec 7, 2015)

RMinNJ said:


> Last week I saw the NY Phil perform Mahler's First Symphony at Carnegie Hall. I went to see Hilary Hahn perform Barber's Violin Concerto but fell utterly under the spell of Mahler. Have to admit this isn't a composer I have paid much attention to. I literally cannot stop listening to this symphony, hearing it in my head or thinking about when I can play a recording of it again. I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


Long, long ago, I was driving to a pit orchestra gig with a fellow young musician, a pretty one whom I fancied, and she asked me which Mahler symphony was my favorite. I answered the first, and she said, "Coward!" I knew right away she was not for me. What a foolish and pretentious thing to say, imo. This symphony of the youthful, vigorous, humorous, even joyous Mahler, before he was beset with tragedy, is as worthy any of his later work. Don't miss Das Lied and the 9th, though.


----------



## RMinNJ (Apr 3, 2021)

Neo Romanza said:


> I hate to say this and this is as a hardcore Mahlerian, but the 1st symphony is one of my least favorite works from him. I can certainly relate to your enthusiasm for this symphony and, more importantly, this composer. I believe Rogerx recommended trying the 4th symphony next and I would agree this would be a great place to go next. It's a world apart from the 1st in many ways, but it's one of his more accessible symphonies and the last movement with a soprano is gorgeous beyond belief. Also, the 4th ends his "Wunderhorn" period. The 5th symphony begins a completely new period for the composer stylistically. Anyway, here are some performances of the 4th that I love and hope you will check out (in no particular order):


Thank you for this! I forgot Rogerx suggested the 4th, so I started with the 2nd, which I loved (and heard remnants of the 1st within), then moved to the 3rd, which I loooooooved. What a feast for the ears, such a lovely violin solo, and that final movement is breathtaking. The children's choir surprised me, but in a good way. It's amazing to have this whole new world opened up to me. Now I see why people can't stop talking about Mahler. Grateful for all the input and suggestions!


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

RMinNJ said:


> Thank you for this! I forgot Rogerx suggested the 4th, so I started with the 2nd, which I loved (and heard remnants of the 1st within), then moved to the 3rd, which I loooooooved. What a feast for the ears, such a lovely violin solo, and that final movement is breathtaking. The children's choir surprised me, but in a good way. It's amazing to have this whole new world opened up to me. Now I see why people can't stop talking about Mahler. Grateful for all the input and suggestions!


I am most happy you have found the MOST INSPIRING symphonies 2 & 3. For me those 2 represent Mahler at his most unique self. Nobody else does symphonies like that.

Continuing the other conversation:

I will refuse to further comment on a specific later symphony but will say that I understand the value in ”I want more of this music” orientation. I would suggest that many will admit if pressed that not every Mahler symphony is as unique, ground breaking and strong as some others — but you can still feel good about the familiar sounding music. And you will defend the familiar forever.

Whereas as a composer it is deeprooted in me to be critical. I apply the criticism to myself the most but it also totally prevents me from accepting ”lazy and uninspired stuff” from others. If the answer to ”could this have been done better” is a weighty YES, then the piece of music will irritate me to the bone.

I hope you understand.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RMinNJ said:


> I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here?






3:10 Winterstürme wichen dem Wonnemond


----------



## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I don't really get the love of some and the dislike of others. They are all fine works and all very different from each other. I suspect that listeners who dislike some of the symphonies are looking for something that they got out of one their loved and not finding it. I do acknowledge, though, that you need to find a gateway performance for each work and that this is harder for some than for others. Still, the man was a giant and a very great symphonist and everything he wrote is worth any hard work that it seems to demand.


Well said. Sym 6 and Sym 7 Ive had to listen to multiple times before I really started to like them. .The others especially 1,2,4,5 and 9 I took to immediately. I still am not sure about 8 but 3 I love especially for the final movement. DLVDE i rate lower than the Symphonies and have little interest in "finished" versions of 10


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

golfer72 said:


> Well said. Sym 6 and Sym 7 Ive had to listen to multiple times before I really started to like them. .The others especially 1,2,4,5 and 9 I took to immediately. I still am not sure about 8 but 3 I love especially for the final movement. DLVDE i rate lower than the Symphonies and have little interest in "finished" versions of 10


I took a similar path. The gateway recordings for me of Mahler 8 were Ozawa's and Nagano's. After decades of occasionally trying I found both of these working really well for me. I can't explain why it was two separate and different recordings by conductors of Japanese extraction that worked for me - a coincidence. As for the 10th it was only after hearing Vanska's recent recording that it really gelled for me.


----------



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

My first Mahler was the 2nd, on a cassette tape a cousin of mine made for me: "you gotta hear this". Don't know which recording it was, but I was instantly hooked. Must have been 16 or so at the time.
Afterwards I started collecting records, the first was the 2nd (naturally) in the Neumann/Czech Phil recording. It was the cheapest I could afford, in some budget re-pressing, but the performance was quite good, still holds up well.
Afterwards I got to love the other symphonies, one by one. Most of all the 6th, I got my hands on the Tennstedt/LSO recording, not the worst way to get to know the work, I guess. Then the 5th came along (Abbado, with the Ruckert songs), the 7th (Neumann again), and I think the 4th came on a Klemperer LP, not sure. 3 with Maazel (taped from a library record), 9 was Haitink/CGO, if I remember correctly. My first DLvdE was Dickie/DFD/Kletzki, a record that I still adore. Never cared much for 1 or 8, don't remember what my first versions of those were. But the complete 10th made a big impression early in the Rattle/Birmingham recording, early in the cd era (coupled with the Schoenberg orchestration of Brahms' 1st piano quartet).


----------



## PDoniger (Dec 5, 2020)

RMinNJ said:


> Last week I saw the NY Phil perform Mahler's First Symphony at Carnegie Hall. I went to see Hilary Hahn perform Barber's Violin Concerto but fell utterly under the spell of Mahler. Have to admit this isn't a composer I have paid much attention to. I literally cannot stop listening to this symphony, hearing it in my head or thinking about when I can play a recording of it again. I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


Mahler's 2nd is an awesome piece of music (my personal favorite of the Mahler symphonies), as are the 8th, and 9th - even the unfinished 10th. In fact, they're all great!


----------



## GMSS (Oct 24, 2010)

Seems so many members here don't like Mahler 7,
but actually it's my first Mahler.

My first Mahler movement is Mahler 7's Rondo Finale.
Yes, the mood of this symphony is not unified.
I think we can divide this symphony into 2.

The 1st and Finale mvts should be separated out of the 2nd - 4th mvts as another symphony.
The 1st and Finale mvts have a common theme but not in 2nd - 4th.
And the 'night' mood in 2nd - 4th mvts not really in the 1st and Finale mvts.
(Yes, you can say that the middle parts of the 1st mvt's development has a little bit 'night' mood)


For the questions of *RMinNJ,*
my opinion is, just buy a complete cycle,
take a look of every symphony and choose what you like.

My first cycle is Klaus Tennstedt with London Philharmonic Orchestra:
Mahler, London Philharmonic Orchestra, Klaus Tennstedt - The Complete Symphonies

but my favourite is Pierre Boulez's one:
Pierre Boulez - Boulez Conducts Mahler - Complete Recordings [14 CD] - Amazon.com Music


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

#2 has the St Anthony theme (+)
#3 goes bim-bom, bim-bom (zzz)
#4 has a lovely Wunderhorn finale (+)
#5 heads straight to the funeral (+/-)
#6 more funeral until the cows come home (+/-)
#7 song of the night with mandolins, cool huh? Exhausting! (+/-)
#8 cats in heat (-)
#9 seems to go somewhere the others did not (++)

Des Knaben Wunderhorn > Das Lied


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

philoctetes said:


> #6 more funeral until the cows come home (+/-)


The cows are still on the pasture with their bells sounding from afar...


----------



## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

+ Ruckert-Lieder of course, with the most beautiful song Gustav ever wrote


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

philoctetes said:


> + Ruckert-Lieder of course, with the most beautiful song Gustav ever wrote


"Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" is also my favorite of all but honestly, I don't really care much for the other Rückert settings, so I would recommend the other collections first. I think the Wunderhorn is the most picturesque and "Mahlerian" and the Gesellen is closest to an instrumental work, the 1st symphony, so I'd start with these two cycles (also because the Kindertotenlieder can be REALLY depressing...).


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> What if I told you that in symphonies 1-6 and 9 there are musical themes, melodies, motives and rhythms that I actually do care for -- and none of those qualities can be found in the 7th? Of course I am looking for the kind of quality I have learned to like in this musical life of mine and feel disappointed when the 7th offers me basically nothing!
> 
> Do you find the 7th rhythmically innovative? Do you have strong impactful rhythms there? Do you have great melodies that make your heart sing? Do you have great drama? Do you get catharsis out of the great architecture and plot?
> 
> ...


It's said that Mahler was trying to get past his ninth as quickly (and as healthily) as possible.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> It's said that Mahler was trying to get past his ninth as quickly (and as healthily) as possible.


It would indeed appear to me that he was in a rush after the 6th. But with the 9th he realized he could no longer rush it but had to give the symphony all he had. And he sure did. The level of inspiration in the 9th surpasses even that of the 5th and 6th, rising to the same level of the 2nd and 3rd.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> It would indeed appear to me that he was in a rush after the 6th. But with the 9th he realized he could no longer rush it but had to give the symphony all he had. And he sure did. The level of inspiration in the 9th surpasses even that of the 5th and 6th, rising to the same level of the 2nd and 3rd.


Yes, it's interesting that that happens in the Mahler symphonies. It reminds me of what we seek in music is -- often what we know that other people don't especially enjoy. As a composer of symphonies yourself you know that you might compose a symphony that explores what you find intriguing at the time, and then the next symphony you will compose with more of a general audience in mind. I don't know. I did this while composing some short atonal pieces (some for myself and others for friends).

But instead, I was referring to the stigma or superstition about composers reaching a monumental ninth symphony in their output, and then never able to finish symphonies beyond that. The younger Mahler was actually thinking about this, according to what we read. Bruckner renumbered his symphonies to address this superstition?


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Luchesi said:


> The younger Mahler was actually thinking about this, according to what we read. *Bruckner renumbered his symphonies to address this superstition?*


Do you have any documentation for this? I don't believe that the superstition of the 9th was an issue when Bruckner wrote his 9th, only Beethoven and Dvorak had reached that point and Dvorak lived for another 8 years. I think that it had only become an issue by the time that Mahler had finished his 8th.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Bruckner didn't renumber his symphonies. He kept revising them but he didn't play around with the numbers (otherwise his 9th would have been the 11th and he would have avoided "the curse"). I think he really thought the "0" and "study symphony not worthy of publication. 
This is not that rare. Mendelssohn has all the string symphonies that are not numbered along with the rest and he would not have published what became the "5th" (Reformation) and would probably not have (as it was done in most recent editions) counted the "Lobgesang" with the symphonies. Saint-Saens also has two unnumbered symphonies in addition to 3 with numbers and there are probably more examples.

Mahler was, for all I know, the first to "avoid the 9th" by putting in the quasi-symphony "Das Lied von der Erde" in between 8 and the fatal number 9.

Looking at the wikipedia overview, it also seems that Mahler didn't "speed up". For all the symphonies from the 4th -9th there are two years given for the composition (probably two summers main work and then some revisions as the first performances are usually about two to three years after the composition), except for the 8th (1906) and DLvdE (1908) when only one year is given.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Becca said:


> Do you have any documentation for this? I don't believe that the superstition of the 9th was an issue when Bruckner wrote his 9th, only Beethoven and Dvorak had reached that point and Dvorak lived for another 8 years. I think that it had only become an issue by the time that Mahler had finished his 8th.


It was a question, because I ran across this conspiracy theory that says that whoever's simulating this universe knows that there's nine spatial dimensions, and so the designers put in nines in a lot of places as clues and hints, where they might be noticed over decades.


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> It was a question, because I ran across this conspiracy theory that says that whoever's simulating this universe knows that there's nine spatial dimensions, and so the designers put in nines in a lot of places as clues and hints, where they might be noticed over decades.


And I was answering only on a musical basis. Symphonies between the 6th and the 9th seem way more rushed to me than other Mahler symphonies. In my experience, The Rushed and Exhausted Symphonies are fine examples of both rush and exhaustion (and thus the lack of inspiration). That is precisely what happens to talented composers who are in a hurry yet exhausted and who temporarily suffer from some hubris.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

But your theory is as baseless as the silly stuff about hidden dimensions. There is nothing "hurried" or "exhausted" about Mahler's 7th, 8th, LvdE, 9th. Mahler himself apparently was particularly fond of both LvdE and the 8th (the greatest thing I have done).


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Kreisler jr said:


> But your theory is as baseless as the silly stuff about hidden dimensions. There is nothing "hurried" or "exhausted" about Mahler's 7th, 8th, LvdE, 9th. Mahler himself apparently was particularly fond of both LvdE and the 8th (the greatest thing I have done).





Waehnen said:


> And I was answering only on a musical basis. Symphonies between the 6th and the 9th *seem way more rushed to me* than other Mahler symphonies.* In my experience, *The Rushed and Exhausted Symphonies are fine examples of both rush and exhaustion (and thus the lack of inspiration). That is precisely what happens to talented composers who are in a hurry yet exhausted and who temporarily suffer from some hubris.


This is how I perceive this matter as a human being with the experience and insight that I have got. It is precisely what would have happened to me had I been more interested in my own musical techniques and language -- instead of the expression and actually having something to say; and had I been exhausted and without enough contrasting new musical material when comparing to the previous major work; but still feeling the urge to just compose and compose and get something done.

I think that Mahler himself must have realized that a greater contrast and renewal was needed: thus the 8th Symphony and LvDE. Yes, necessary steps towards the 9th, I think. Resurrection and forcefully reinventing oneself through the megalomania of the 8th, kind of -- after hitting the wall.

Should you want, I could do some analysis on the frequency and depth of high profile and defining musical elements in some of the symphonies. Certain symphonies certainly have more of the high profile stuff -- and that is an objective fact, not just an opinion.

Edit: Then again I said earlier I would not. I am sorry. It is fruitless. I apologize.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> And I was answering only on a musical basis. Symphonies between the 6th and the 9th seem way more rushed to me than other Mahler symphonies. In my experience, The Rushed and Exhausted Symphonies are fine examples of both rush and exhaustion (and thus the lack of inspiration). That is precisely what happens to talented composers who are in a hurry yet exhausted and who temporarily suffer from some hubris.


I shouldn't have brought up this conspiracy, because many people think that string theory is a silly notion that they heard of as a kid and dismissed. 
When many theorists have devoted their lives to it, because it's such important work.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^ Given that I've recently read Sabine Hossenfelder's_ Lost in Math_, and Lee Smolin's _The Trouble with Physics_, we won't go into my opinions of string theory


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Becca said:


> ^^ Given that I've recently read Sabine Hossenfelder's_ Lost in Math_, and Lee Smolin's _The Trouble with Physics_, we won't go into my opinions of string theory


Yes, there's a lot of competition. Both camps have their Youtube personalities and their eyeball-capturing channels. Most physicists think it's healthy (because as a science for explaining things there probably won't be repeatable evidence for either model).


----------



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Luchesi said:


> I shouldn't have brought up this conspiracy, because many people think that string theory is a silly notion that they heard of as a kid and dismissed.
> When many theorists have devoted their lives to it, because it's such important work.


String theory is a great attempt towards combining the quantum world with the theories of relativity and the thermodynamics but of course you would not suggest that Mahler aimed at the mythical number 9 because of some later theory.

9 has some aesthetic appeal for sure as a number. 3 times the solid 3. As a composer I am trying to rid myself from preferring certain numbers. But I admit to liking the uneven more than the even. So 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 are often my choices in constellations.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Waehnen said:


> String theory is a great attempt towards combining the quantum world with the theories of relativity and the thermodynamics but of course you would not suggest that Mahler aimed at the mythical number 9 because of some later theory.
> 
> 9 has some aesthetic appeal for sure as a number. 3 times the solid 3. As a composer I am trying to rid myself from preferring certain numbers. But I admit to liking the uneven more than the even. So 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 are often my choices in constellations.


I find it constructive compared to the Standard Model, because it tries to explain why the per unit strength of Dark Energy varies. And it gives a plausible description of Dark Matter and its properties (and why DM probably will never be probe-able by humans). 
Mahler and Schoenberg might have been interested, from their worldviews.

Conspiracists are always on the lookout for simple relationships folks can relate to, then they add a little fear, and then other like-minded people give them attention, etc.

all off topic

I’ve seen piano reductions of many of the Mahler symphonies online somewhere, but it was many years ago. I’d like to buy them if anyone sells them. I have the orchestral scores.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/user/iainfarrington


----------



## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Luchesi said:


> https://www.youtube.com/user/iainfarrington


 Wow these are quite something.


----------



## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

Greetings all.


RMinNJ said:


> Last week I saw the NY Phil perform Mahler's First Symphony at Carnegie Hall. I went to see Hilary Hahn perform Barber's Violin Concerto but fell utterly under the spell of Mahler. Have to admit this isn't a composer I have paid much attention to. I literally cannot stop listening to this symphony, hearing it in my head or thinking about when I can play a recording of it again. I love the evocation of nature, the Klezmer section, the joy, the epic, passionate, grand scale, how the score lets individual instruments really shine (that oboe!) Where do I go from here? What Mahler symphony should I try next? And what recording do you love of it?


Greetings RMinNJ, and congratulations on your Mahler addiction. ( Mine began in 1975, and has never waned... )

To answer your question, I'd try Symphony No. 2, and I'd also pick up his _Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen, _which provided some of the melodic material for Symphony no. 1.

As far as recordings of no. 1, there are any number. When l wish to hear the work l play the Deutsche Grammophon DVD with Bernstein and the VPO.


----------



## Luchesi (Mar 15, 2013)

Maybe all the piano solo (and orchesral scores) are here for purchase.









Mahler, Gustav


Aria Editions, music publisher. Specialist in arrangements of classical repertoire for chamber orchestra, piano, organ and instrumental ensembles



www.ariaeditions.org


----------



## FLighT (Mar 7, 2013)

(I made these notes 2 or 3 years ago on Mahler 5)

Most of his symphonies are epic in scale but #5 would be good place to start. The bass drum strokes through the first movement, performed at all levels of volume, are a great system tester. I like Solti and Chicago on Decca in their first go at it from 1970. The remastered (in 1991) sound is quite good and I have both the early 80's CD and 91' remaster. Here are some of my notes on Mahler 5 from some years back when I was doing a lot of performance comparisons of all Mahler's symphonies.

The 5th like the 1st has no shortage of top notch recordings available. For a comparison with a number of recordings of this symphony I always return to my first love and first hearing by Solti and Chicago on Decca. *But the 1991 re-master of the original 1970 recording is the one to have.* It is still my fav for its sonics and Solti’s aggressive take on the score with about the best 5th movement closing at unmatched speed and ensemble playing. I had the 1970 on LP, then the first CD issue (1984 I think – still have it) and then the 1991 remaster of the original which is truly remarkable.

This:1991 remaster 








Not this: original CD release 1984 of the 1970 LP release











Solti also did 2 live recordings of the 5th. A 1991 “Live” with Chicago, and his very last recording done July 1997, before he passed away in Oct of that year, with the Tonehalle-Orchestra Zurich. The 91’ live is with the Chicago again but I feel the recording is not as good as the 1991 remaster of the original 1970 or the Tonehalle recording which is very good for “Live”.

This: 1997








Not this:1991 "Live"










All 4 of these are London/Decca’s, The difference is the recording locales. The original 1970 was made in Medinah Hall, Chicago and is vivid and dynamic, clean and clear especially in the remaster. The 1991 “Live” was with Chicago but they must have been on tour as the recording location was the Musikverein, Vienna and it is too soft around the edges for my liking. The 1997 recording was made in the Tonehalle’s regular performance hall and it’s a keeper for me as well.

There are many very good recordings of the 5th (and 1st too). Among 5th’s Barbirolli on EMI, Bernstein on DG, Abbado on DG, Tennstedt on EMI, and Boulez on DG come to mind. But with 24 different recordings on my shelf it’s tough for me to keep track!


*AND*, one more recommendation in a very current release.

*Mahler 5 - Vanska & Minnesota Orchestra on BIS label.*

Listened to the Vanska Mahler 5 today. Excellent performance and recording. I’m beginning to suspect the SQ with these Minnesota / BIS recordings has to do with the natural qualities of their orchestra hall. I am really taken by the sound. So much so that when I saw Vanska / Minnesota /BIS had a complete set of Sibelius and Beethoven Symphonies, I checked out some comments at Amazon and ordered both sets.

I have about a dozen or so BIS CD’s from before 2010, including some 90’s and 80’s: some Sibelius, some Tubin, Nielsen, and few others recorded in various locations in Europe with different orchestras, but I don’t think they have the sonic qualities of these Minnesota / Orchestra Hall recordings. I’ll revisit a few of them soon to confirm for myself.

Right off the bat, Vanska’s Minnesota M5 is a top shelf performance for sure. Pacing throughout is just about perfect. Especially in the 2nd movement which may just be one of the toughest Mahler movements to pull off in his whole symphonic output.

*1st Movement: *A lot of M5 recordings push the gain too hard on the opening trumpet notes so that when the full orchestra makes its intro it sounds anemic. BIS got it just right. The bass drum, tympani , and double basses are very well balanced and recorded. His pacing makes this a true funeral march with all the dark undertones. Seems Vanska is going with the European orchestra layout with divided first and second strings in this whole series. (I'm curious to hear how he lays out his forces for the Sibelius and Beethoven cycles).

*2nd Movement: *As I previously allude to, I think this is one tough movement to get across but Vanska has done it admirably. (He is right there with Barbirolli’s 2nd movement in his classic performance from decades ago). Much of the music in this movement is agitated and chaotic, a bit of uncertainty as to where the music is going. It’s easy to get it tripping all over itself and lacking in clarity. About 2/3s of the way in Mahler introduces a magnificent chorale for the brass but just at the point where you expect the music to reach a highpoint it fades away in uncertainty followed immediately by the agitated music that opened the movement but that too fades away to uncertainty closing the movement out. (The brass chorale will return and fully unload at the end of the 5th movement).

*3rd Movement: *This largest of the 5 movements is a complete turnaround from the music of the first two. This is idyllic, pastoral-like, light-hearted music that alternates with darker moments but is basically of a different world than the first two movements. Vanska and the musicians pull off these alternations with extreme clarity. One of the qualities Vanska seems to have (like Tennstedt) is the ability to pace music in a relaxed manner, and yet one that never feels slower than it should be.

*4th Movement: *Vanska seems right in step with many of the other conductors who have recorded this symphony in terms of pacing. However, I would like a little more intensity from the strings.

*5th Movement: *The Rondo Finale continues the quality of the previous movements in terms of interpretation and execution. The stymied big brass chorale of the 2nd movement at last breaks loose towards the end of the movement. My favorite performances always have a measured slowing of the tempo leading into the final brass chorale to bring more drama and give the horns their big moment. Not quite like going from 60 to 0 in 3 seconds but the effect is most notable. But wait, there’s more! LOL. The orchestra now takes off like it got stung by a bee and rushes ever faster, screaming, (or laughing depending on your point of view), to finally get squashed by a final, full orchestra bang with bass drum. I must have seen this performed live at least a dozen times and with a few different orchestras, always a crowd pleaser so conductors love to program and perform it.


----------



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

^^Everyone to their own however I take exception with Vanska's 5th, specifically the 4th movement where he takes almost 13 minutes vs the 7-8 minutes Mahler took, thereby totally distorting the movement and the balance of the work. As someone said, it's a love song, not a dirge!


----------



## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

LKB said:


> Greetings all.
> 
> Greetings RMinNJ, and congratulations on your Mahler addiction. ( Mine began in 1975, and has never waned... )
> 
> ...


Tossing this in here, though l expect it probably has appeared in TC before...



mahler symphony 1 tennstedt chicago - Google Search



I've yet to find a better M1 on video, though ( imho ) the DVD l mentioned is as good.


----------



## RMinNJ (Apr 3, 2021)

LKB said:


> Greetings all.
> 
> Greetings RMinNJ, and congratulations on your Mahler addiction. ( Mine began in 1975, and has never waned... )
> 
> ...


Thank you LKB! Mahler addiction is a very good phrase, and I am well into mine. I forced myself away from No. 1 and started with No. 2, quickly went to No. 3, went back to No. 2 and had been languishing there with some pretty serious fascination, then moved to No. 4. No. 4 took one or two listens then I was promptly hooked. On YouTube I love watching Mariss Jansons conduct Concertgebouworkest for No. 2 and Claudio Abbado (Lucerne Festival 2009) for No. 4. Have listened to Nos. 5 and 6 but staying in the 2-4 zone for now


----------



## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

If you truly like the first which is one of Mahler's greatest achievements (because it was his first try) IMHO, go to the first movement of the third symphony and the last movement of the ninth. You will have understood the essence of Mahler's music. Once you have done that listen to the Kindertotenlieder by Jessye Norman. You will have covered a lot of ground. The last step will be Das Lied von der Erde. Pick your own choice by then.


----------



## justekaia (Jan 2, 2022)

Kreisler jr said:


> I would never recommend that behemoth of the 3rd for a relative newbie. In a way it might be the most "Mahlerian" of the earlier ones but it is just toooo looooong, almost twice the 1st. And silly boy's choir is probably going to alienate more people than "Urlicht" in the 2nd.


the third and the ninth are by far the best symphonies and i do not care if they are too long. pleasure cannot last too long. The second and fourth are next. The first is a noble effort for a start and has immense qualities. I am not excited by the others, except of course Das Lied von der Erde, which is a vocal symphony.


----------

