# 1773: Mozarts level at 17



## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

In 1773 Mozart was 17, he wrote a bunch of works, including Symphony no 25, Piano concerto no 5 and the Divertimento K.136.

Is there any other composer that can compare to this 17 year old, did any others make such high standard of music at such a young age?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Mendelssohn was superior at 17.
By age 15 (1824) he had written a dozen "string symphonies" (a few of which are not only strings), one full orchestral symphony, counted as first, one concerto each for piano/strings, violin/strings, piano/violin and two concertos for two pianos and orchestra.
With 17 he had the Midsummernight's dream ouverture, the octet, the first string quintet and lots of other chamber pieces (3 piano quartets, a string quartet, a sextet with piano and strings etc.) Not all of the latter or the string symphonies are as "great" as later works but neither are the first 30 symphonies or dozen of string quartets by Mozart.
With 18 he wrote the a minor string quartet op.13 that is at least the equal to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn.

Purcell was also quite good very young, I think he wrote all of his consort fantasias and a dozen of trio sonatas as well as a bunch of choral works as a teenager but maybe he was already 20.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> Mendelssohn was superior at 17.


"Recent research by Nicolas Kitchen of the Borromeo Quartet reveals that a more mature Mendelssohn somewhat substantially edited the score before its final publication in 1832." https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Felix-Mendelssohn-Octet-in-E-flat-major-Op-20/



Kreisler jr said:


> With 18 he wrote the a minor string quartet op.13 that is at least the equal to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn.


"At least the equal"? How can you be so sure? They're different pieces written at different times. When do you think Haydn himself, for instance, "equals" Mozart's sophistication in use of harmony in those quartets?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*1773*



Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> In 1773 Mozart was 17, he wrote a bunch of works, including Symphony no 25, Piano concerto no 5 and the Divertimento K.136.
> 
> Is there any other composer that can compare to this 17 year old, did any others make such high standard of music at such a young age?


I'll say only this: there was at the time, in 1773, a three year old in Bonn, Germany, who was doing, I suspect, a pretty good job of listening to music, some of which I garner was by Mozart. _That's_ meaningful, too.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

K.192: 



K.174: 



K.183: 



K.184: 



K.173: 




K.167:


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> *1773*
> 
> I'll say only this: there was at the time, in 1773, a three year old in Bonn, Germany, who was doing, I suspect, a pretty good job of listening to music, some of which I garner was by Mozart. _That's_ meaningful, too.


What was he doing at 17?


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> "At least equal"? How can you be so sure? They're different pieces written at different times. When do you think Haydn himself, for example, "equals" Mozart's sophistication in use of harmony in those quartets?


If you think I'll take the bait for another thread derangement by your anti-Haydn obsession, you are mistaken.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Mozart is my all time favorite, but I haven't heard it all...I usually point to string quartet no. 13 (K173) to try to convince people that he was mature and fabulous, if they didn't already know, at an early age. Mendelssohn also grew up pretty fast and for me is reminiscent of Mozart and pretty fabulous too.
Cheers


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> If you think I'll take the bait for another thread derangement by your anti-Haydn obsession, you are mistaken.


I'm just asking you to explain your claims, which I find bizarre; Mendelssohn's Op.13 equals Mozart's Haydn quartets. How can you compare those pieces written at different times and different standards of aesthetics; isn't it more reasonable / easier to compare Mozart's work with his own contemporaries'? What are your "criteria" for judging? There's no need to get so sensitive. :cheers:


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> Mozart is my all time favorite, but I haven't heard it all...I usually point to string quartet no. 13 (K173) to try to convince people that he was mature and fabulous, if they didn't already know, at an early age. Mendelssohn also grew up pretty fast and for me is reminiscent of Mozart and pretty fabulous too.
> Cheers


would you agree with Kreisler jr that "Mendelssohn was superior at 17"?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> would you agree with Kreisler jr that "Mendelssohn was superior at 17"?


No, sorry Kreisler jr  I might be incompetent with anything regarding Mozart...I love Mendelssohns op. 44 but have been kind of anti-octet...I'm slowly getting rid of my prejudices.


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> What was he doing at 17?


Gearing up to go where Mozart didn't.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Some wonderful chromatic melodies in the Marian litany, K.195 (1774):




also the "sancta maria" and "agnus dei" and chromaticism of the "salus infirmorum":












Compare them with works by composers around this period such as J.A. Hasse.



Kjetil Heggelund said:


> but have been kind of anti-octet...I'm slowly getting rid of my prejudices.


The Mendelssohn octet is impressive, but sounds slightly "chatty" to me in the concluding movement.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

I think Mozart, Mendelssohn and Korngold are the "canonical" child prodigies of composition, though im interested in knowing if any lesser known ones are out there in the outskirts of the repitoire.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

fbjim said:


> I think Mozart, Mendelssohn and Korngold are the "canonical" child prodigies of composition,


+Saint-Saëns



fbjim said:


> though im interested in knowing if any lesser known ones are out there in the outskirts of the repitoire.


I can tell that Haydn's brother matured earlier than Haydn (at least) and that's how he became such an exemplary model for the young Mozart; composed and improvised fantasies and fugues on the organ by age 12, worked as a kapellmeister in Großwardein around age 20, before settling in Salzburg.




 (written in 1756 (age 19))




 (written in 1762 (age 25))




 (written in 1768 (age 31)) reminds me of the Soave sia il vento from Cosi fan tutte in its use of harmony.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

hammeredklavier said:


> (written in 1768 (age 31)) reminds me of the Soave sia il vento from Cosi fan tutte in its use of harmony.


What do you imply by 'use' of harmony? These two have the most plain, average harmony in all of music.


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## StDior (May 28, 2015)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> In 1773 Mozart was 17, he wrote a bunch of works, including Symphony no 25, Piano concerto no 5 and the Divertimento K.136.
> 
> Is there any other composer that can compare to this 17 year old, did any others make such high standard of music at such a young age?


One candidate is Cesar Franck. He wrote his genial Piano trio No.1 (Op.1/1) in the age of 17.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> +Saint-Saëns


CSS, yeah. One of those guys who could just produce melodies like it was nothing. I think he once said something like "I compose music like a tree produces fruit" or something.

I do find it interesting that Korngold (even accounting for his film music career), CSS, and Mendelssohn weren't exactly regarded as having shown a serious amount of artistic growth (that's maybe unfair to Korngold given his career, and probably a gross generalization overall) once they hit adulthood. I wonder if that's something you could attribute to prodigious talent, or if a sample size of 3 is probably not great.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Bizet’s Symphony in C? (From a fan of the wonderful ballet)


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Britten composed a number of works while in his mid-teens which have an assuredness and maturity which belie his tender years, but he refrained from designating opus numbers until his _Sinfonietta_, a work composed at the ripe old age of 18. Korngold's early compositions were remarkable when considering that boys of his age were more used to scrumping apples and wrestling with Latin prep.


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## RogerWaters (Feb 13, 2017)

Kreisler jr said:


> Mendelssohn was superior at 17.
> With 18 he wrote the a minor string quartet op.13 that is at least the equal to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn.


Chokes on coffee.


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

dissident said:


> Gearing up to go where Mozart didn't.


Beethoven didn't write any pieces as a teenager? When was his first piece written? Wasn't he forced to play piano and make music from an early age like Mozart?


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> Mendelssohn was superior at 17.
> By age 15 (1824) he had written a dozen "string symphonies" (a few of which are not only strings), one full orchestral symphony, counted as first, one concerto each for piano/strings, violin/strings, piano/violin and two concertos for two pianos and orchestra.
> With 17 he had the Midsummernight's dream ouverture, the octet, the first string quintet and lots of other chamber pieces (3 piano quartets, a string quartet, a sextet with piano and strings etc.) Not all of the latter or the string symphonies are as "great" as later works but neither are the first 30 symphonies or dozen of string quartets by Mozart.
> With 18 he wrote the a minor string quartet op.13 that is at least the equal to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn.


Just adding my voice to those who disagree with this! Of course, you are entitled to your taste and the young Mozart may have been less consistent than the young Mendelssohn but his finest works at that time offered us a lot more (IMO) than mere energy and attractive if somewhat conventional ideas.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

hammeredklavier said:


> I'm just asking you to explain your claims, which I find bizarre; Mendelssohn's Op.13 equals Mozart's Haydn quartets. How can you compare those pieces written at different times and different standards of aesthetics; isn't it more reasonable / easier to compare Mozart's work with his own contemporaries'?


The point here is not comparing Mozart or Mendelssohn to contemporaries but to each other (and other young prodigies), or am I mistaken? To be clear, I don't think that Mendelssohn's op.13 is "better" than e.g. the dissonance quartet (which I don't much like anyway, it's far from my favorite of the set dedicated to Haydn). It's not weaker either, but both is beside the point. (FWIW I don't think there is a quartet from any Mendelsohn contemporary or the following generation that is superior to his a minor op.13 with the exception of the Schubert G major maybe.)

The point is that Mendelssohn was at the age of 18 and 20 at a stage where he could make his very own reaction to late Beethoven at a superlative level, i.e. taking up the best "modern" works and do something personal with this inspiration. That's very similar to what Mozart did with his Haydn quartets. That's why I mentioned them and think they are comparable as an achievement within both the composer's development and historical context. 
Or briefly, Mendelssohn got close to his peak form as a composer already at 17-20 with these early chamber pieces and the Ouverture whereas Mozart's first candidate might be K 271 or K 364 at 21-23. 
Now I think that Mozart is overall a greater composer than Mendelssohn but clearly not with pieces written around 20 or earlier. There is nothing in Mozart's pre-K 200 music close to Mendelssohn's octet in originality and brilliance (and this is actually reflected in repertoire as Mendelsohn's octet and MSND ouverture are standard pieces compared to e.g. Mozart K 175 which is almost only played/recorded in complete sets).


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Kreisler jr said:


> Or briefly, Mendelssohn got close to his peak form as a composer already at 17-20 with these early chamber pieces and the Ouverture whereas Mozart's first candidate might be K 271 or K 364 at 21-23.


So Felix peaked early (and some would even say he went downhill after that) while Wolgang continued to grow? That doesn't stop Mozart's achievement at 17 being greater than Mendelssohn's at that age. Yes, Mozart had a lot more in him but that is comparing him with his later self.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Beethoven didn't write any pieces as a teenager? When was his first piece written? Wasn't he forced to play piano and make music from an early age like Mozart?


Beethoven wrote 3 piano sonatas (so called Kurfürstensonaten or electoral sonatas) at ca. 13 and 3 piano quartets a year later. (Always remember that Beethoven was born in december and Mozart in january, so in a given year Mozart is usually almost one year older than Beethoven.)
They are all quite good, actually pretty close to the level Mozart or Mendelssohn were composing at as young teenagers, I'd say. (One slow movement was good enough that Beethoven basically re-used a fair bit of it in his first sonata op.2/1) But he does not have the masterpieces at 17-19 they have.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Enthusiast said:


> So Felix peaked early (and some would even say he went downhill after that) while Wolgang continued to grow? That doesn't stop Mozart's achievement at 17 being greater than Mendelssohn's at that age. Yes, Mozart had a lot more in him but that is comparing him with his later self.


As I wrote in the rest of the last paragraph you did no quote I don't think there is any Mozart at 17 as original and brilliant as the Mendelssohn Octet, the MSND ouverture, the first quintet. I actually find this quite clear, even with masterpieces like K 201. Or any Mozart at 18-20 close to Mendelssohn's quartets opp.12+13 (which I truly think are comparable "absolutely" in quality and achievement with _any_ Mozart quartet). So I'd probably say that @20 Mendelssohn is even better in comparison than @17. The first Mozart piece close to that quality I'd recognize is K 271 when he was probably closer to 22 than 21 (late 1777).

As someone above said that early Mendelssohn was "busy", technically clean, but facile and not that great. I can agree with that for some pieces like these piano/strings concerti. But not all of them and this is the stuff he wrote at 13-15 whereas the pieces mentioned he wrote at 16-18-20 are much better than that.
And I also think that one could say similar things as facile and hardly great about symphonies Mozart wrote at 14 or so. We would not care about them if they had not been written by Mozart.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

RogerWaters said:


> Chokes on coffee.


I know. When it comes to Bach and Mozart, I sometimes get the impression Kreisler doesn't quite know what he's talking about. 
I still don't understand what is comparable about Mendelssohn's Op.13 to Mozart's Haydn quartets.
https://www.talkclassical.com/69140-expressivity-modern-music-3.html#post1981211
https://www.talkclassical.com/70694-common-practice-era-did-4.html#post2055539


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> As I wrote in the rest of the last paragraph you did no quote I don't think there is any Mozart at 17 as original and brilliant as the Mendelssohn Octet, the MSND ouverture, the first quintet. I actually find this quite clear, even with masterpieces like K 201. Or any Mozart at 18-20 close to Mendelssohn's quartets opp.12+13 (which I truly think are comparable "absolutely" in quality and achievement with any Mozart quartet). So I'd probably say that @20 Mendelssohn is even better in comparison than @17. The first Mozart piece close to that quality I'd recognize is K 271 when he was probably closer to 22 than 21 (late 1777).


How? Mozart's "voice" at 17~21 is not any less remarkable/distinctive than Mendelssohn's at that age. I think you base all your conclusions around your own preferences "I like/I dislike", but let's see things more "objectively". Do Mozart's contemporaries sound like;

Look at Bernstein's lecture on Mozart's symphony in G minor K.550:
"Do you realize that, that wild, atonal-sounding passage contains every one of the twelve chromatic tones except the tonic note G? ... Take my word for it, that out-burst of chromatic rage is Classically-contained, and so is the climax of this development section, which finds itself in the unlikely key of C-sharp minor, which is as far away as you can get from the home key of G minor."
> and then look at this passage in Missa sancti Trinitatis K.167 [ 3:52 ]

Look at - Bernstein: "But notice that Mozart's theme is already chromatically formed. And even more so when it repeats."
> and then look at these passages in
Missa brevis K.275 [ 3:07 , 3:18 ] , [ 10:33 , 10:58 ] , [ 14:00 , 14:37 ]
Missa brevis K.257 [ 3:57 , 4:10 ] , [ 8:22 , 9:50 ]

Look at - Bernstein: "There's that Classical balance we were talking about -chromatic wandering on the top, firmly supported by tonic-and-dominant structure underneath."
> and then look at these passages in Missa brevis K.258 [ 2:53 ~ 3:31 ]

Look at - Bernstein: "Even this lead-in to the home key, is chromatically written, firmly held in place by a dominant pedal." 
> and then look at this passage in Missa brevis K.275 [ 7:12 ~ 7:21 ]

Look at the introduction to the K.465 "dissonance" quartet,
> and then look at this contrapuntal passage of chromatic fourths in Missa sancti Trinitatis K.167 [ 10:47 ] (there's a wonderful use of Gregorian melody preceding it; [ 9:47 ])

Also compare K.551/iv with K.192/iii

Luchesi or Salieri, for example, ([E.M.], [H.M.], [R]) don't orchestrate like this: 
spatzenmesse K.220 [ 2:30 ~ 4:00 ]
"On the other hand, for the French, Mozart was certainly not 'one of us' from a national point of view. At the beginning of the nineteenth century, before Berlioz's time, some influential critics - for instance, Julien-Louis Geoffroy - rejected Mozart as a foreigner, considering his music 'scholastic', stressing his use of harmony over melody, and the dominance of the orchestra over singing in the operas - all these were considered negative features of 'Germanic' music." < Mozartian Undercurrents in Berlioz | Benjamin Pearl >


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> the Mendelssohn Octet


I already told you Mendelssohn revised his octet at age 23



hammeredklavier said:


> "Recent research by Nicolas Kitchen of the Borromeo Quartet reveals that a more mature Mendelssohn somewhat substantially edited the score before its final publication in 1832." https://www.earsense.org/chamber-music/Felix-Mendelssohn-Octet-in-E-flat-major-Op-20/


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> There is nothing in Mozart's pre-K 200 music close to Mendelssohn's octet in originality and brilliance (and *this is actually reflected in repertoire* as Mendelsohn's octet and MSND ouverture are standard pieces compared to e.g. Mozart K 175 which is almost only played/recorded in complete sets).


That says nothing about the quality. I still think this way about early Mendelssohn; he starts off with something chatty, and then in the next bars he goes higher, and and in the next, he goes even higher, and again, again, so on ...








His early efforts are certainly *impressive* (and I admire his late works such as the F minor quartet, E minor concerto), but the "overhype" around his early works (ie. all the groundless claims that "they're way better than Mozart's") sometimes strikes me as bizarre/unreasonable.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/02/23/the-youngest-master-2 
https://www.classical-scene.com/2009/10/24/1692/
Again, I completely agree with Larold's comment in another thread: "Classical music is like copycat industry. When something becomes popular, everyone does it" (or something to the effect).
Last time I checked, you yourself also believe that there are "overrated" pieces/composers; "Vivaldi is overrated for his concerti" (post2095260)


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

Isn't this the kind of talk that gets a thread closed?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Is there any other composer that can compare to this 17 year old, did any others make such high standard of music at such a young age?


these are pretty good too; full of youthful vibe:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

No comparison. Julian Scriabin. He was 10 years old when he composed this.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Phil loves classical said:


> Julian Scriabin. He was 10 years old when he composed this.


Alexander was 15 when he wrote this:





Mozart was 10 when he wrote this:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> the first quintet.


https://www.jonathanblumhofer.com/writings/program-notes/mendelssohn-string-quintet-no-1/
"His two string quintets, both of which follow Mozart's lead and call for two violas, are separated by twenty years, yet both are marked by freshness of affect and the spirit of youth. This is especially true of the first, written before Mendelssohn turned twenty and revised when he was at the ripe old age of twenty-four."



Kreisler jr said:


> The point here is not comparing Mozart or Mendelssohn to contemporaries but to each other (and other young prodigies), or am I mistaken?


But are you sure you're doing it properly? Composers' conception of the instrumental sonata-form, for instance, in the 1770s was different from that of the 1830s. Because of that, there can be an "illusion" that composers from 1830s are more "complete", if you don't look at the "whole picture". I think all you're doing is just judging Mozart by the standards of Mendelssohn.
If you think works like K.195, K.192 (1774) with their use of harmony are not great -can you show me examples in the same genre, same form, in the same period (mid 1770s), written by other composers that are superior?




This is why I keep saying; we need to listen to a wide variety of the genres to have an accurate view of the period (ie. to perceive their work appropriately by their historical context).


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## Wilhelm Theophilus (Aug 8, 2020)

I heard that Mozart's mature music began at around 24, is that correct? What about Beethoven?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Kreisler jr said:


> The point is that Mendelssohn was at the age of 18 and 20 at a stage where he could make his very own reaction to late Beethoven at a superlative level, i.e. taking up the best "modern" works and do something personal with this inspiration.


Btw, I forgot to mention this one fact; no one in the late 18th century thought stuff like Mozart Misericordias domini in D minor K.222 was not "modern" music. G.B. Martini calls it modern music in his letter to Mozart.
Mozart: "A few days before my departure the Elector expressed a desire to hear some of my contrapuntal compositions. I was therefore obliged to write this motet in a great hurry, in order to have time to have the score copied for his Highness and to have the parts written out and thus enable it to be performed during the Offertory at High Mass on the following Sunday."
Martini: "Together with your most kind letter, which reached me by way of Trent, I received the Motet… It was with pleasure that I studied it from beginning to end, and I can tell you in all sincerity that I was singularly pleased with it, finding in it all that is required by Modern Music: good harmony, mature modulation, a moderate pace in the violins, a natural connexion of the parts and good taste. I am delighted with it and rejoice that since I had the pleasure of hearing you at Bologna on the harpsichord you have made great stride in composition, which must be pursued ever more by practice, for Music is of such nature as to call for great exercise and study as long as one lives."


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> I heard that Mozart's mature music began at around 24, is that correct? What about Beethoven?


Beethoven was trained first and foremost as an instrumentist (a pianist) in his early years, so as a composer he matured much later than Mozart. I don't think that both are really comparable in terms of what they produced as composers at an early age. The very few works that Beethoven produced before his twenties are very progressive for his age though - in terms of use of dynamics and modulations for example.



Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Is there any other composer that can compare to this 17 year old, did any others make such high standard of music at such a young age?


As others have pointed out, there's Mendelssohn, but I may accept that Mozart was a more accomplished composer than even him at this age.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

elgars ghost said:


> Britten composed a number of works while in his mid-teens which have an assuredness and maturity which belie his tender years, but he refrained from designating opus numbers until his _Sinfonietta_, a work composed at the ripe old age of 18. Korngold's early compositions were remarkable when considering that boys of his age were more used to scrumping apples and wrestling with Latin prep.


You saved me posting EG. As you'll know, the Simple Symphony uses themes culled from his early youth and what tunes they are.
Anybody mentioned Alma D yet?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

mikeh375 said:


> Anybody mentioned Alma D yet?


MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


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## 59540 (May 16, 2021)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> Beethoven didn't write any pieces as a teenager? When was his first piece written? Wasn't he forced to play piano and make music from an early age like Mozart?


But he wasn't the "natural" that Mozart was. I don't think it came as easily for Beethoven as for Mozart. From what I've read it was Beethoven's father who wanted him to be the Mozart-like prodigy that he really wasn't.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but Mendelssohn wrote the Midsummer Night's Dream overture when he was 17. I think overall early Mendelssohn might be more impressive than early Mozart.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

elgars ghost said:


> can of worms


Couldn't you have just said it in words?

Btw, this is beautiful, and David Schildkret argues Mozart wrote it at 16:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

(1775)


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mikeh375 said:


> You saved me posting EG. As you'll know, the Simple Symphony uses themes culled from his early youth and what tunes they are.
> *Anybody mentioned Alma D yet?*


Are you trying to be provocative? Hehe. Way I see it, the other composers here mentioned here were relevant to their respective periods, and fully formed in the idiom, which I don't see Alma being either.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Are you trying to be provocative? Hehe. Way I see it, the other composers here mentioned here were relevant to their respective periods, and fully formed in the idiom, which I don't see Alma being either.


No I'm not, honest..well maybe a little, but she is gifted and some might see her as deserving a place next to Wolfie.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mikeh375 said:


> No I'm not, honest..well maybe a little, but she is gifted and some might see her as deserving a place next to Wolfie.


My question is do you see her deserving next to Wolfie? Who cares who those 'some' may be.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> My question is do you see her deserving next to Wolfie? Who cares who those 'some' may be.


short answer...no
long answer...no way.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

mikeh375 said:


> short answer...no
> long answer...no way.


Haha, why'd you mention her in the first place, unless to ...? Glad you cleared that up.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> Haha, why'd you mention her in the first place, unless to ...? Glad you cleared that up.


ok you got me. Honestly, it was only meant as a little joke, now go work on your study no5 ..


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Prokofiev at 18:


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## Anankasmo (Jun 23, 2017)

Saint-Saens early works are quite good. His musical style was almost fully matured by this age imo:


























quite Mendelssohnian in character but really solid pieces i think.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Here's a slightly different question; can we relate these composers' early works to their mature style?
I think this bit (9:51) from Mozart's K.257 is like a "prototypical" expression of this bit (10:57) from Don Giovanni, and this bit from K.220 is of this bit from La Clemenza di Tito.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Anankasmo said:


> Saint-Saens early works are quite good. His musical style was almost fully matured by this age imo:


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## EnescuCvartet (Dec 16, 2016)

Wilhelm Theophilus said:


> did any others make such high standard of music at such a young age?


Schubert was composing masterpieces by the age of 17. See D 118 (at 17 years) for example. I think he was 19 when he wrote D343, which is great. I seem to recall Scriabin writing some great piano pieces as a young teen.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

harmonies at 1:52









 (13:12)


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