# Which Is your favourite orchestra



## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

A month ago I was in Berlin, Leipzig and Dresde. I had The chance to listen to three of The most famous orchestras not only from Germany, but in the world: Berlin PO, Gewandhaus and Dresden Staatskapelle. In Leipzig I was told that Chaiily is a wonderful conductor but not so as a human being.

After coming back home, I've been wondering which orchestras I liked more. Surfing the internet, it seems that in Europe british critics tend to consider The RCO as The best orchestra in The world, while continental critics are more German and give The Berlin PO The first position. After both orchestras there's a bunch of others ( Vienna, LSO, Chicago, Bavarian RSO...)

I'm perfectly aware that:

1. Orchestras can make a big deal of change in time (The philharmonia under Klemperer was arguably the best London orchestra and now it isn't, as I see it).

2. Conductors are absolutely important: Concertgebouw didn't sound The same with Haitink or with Harnoncourt.

What I'd like to know is: talking about *symphony orchestras* and in *recent times* ( not historically) which are the orchestras whose *sound you like the most* (either in recordings or in concerts).

Thanks and happy new year to all music lovers.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

Difficult as I like most orchestras but think I'll go for ASMF. Been following them and the Musical Director is my favourite Violinist Joshua Bell!!


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Nice. It was a nice orchestra with hundreds of recordings with Neville Marriner and Iona Brown. i like Bell as well. ASMF: 1 point.

Best wishes


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## david johnson (Jun 25, 2007)

"sound I like the most" - Chicago, sometimes Philadelphia


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

For me Royal Concertgebow orchestra / Vienna Philharmonic / Chicago symphony orchestra to start with.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Impossible to choose one at this majestic level of musicianship:

Boston Symphony

Chicago Symphony

Philadelphia Orchestra

Cleveland Orchestra

San Francisco Symphony

All tied for favorite.

Proudly American all the way!!!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

I still call it the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam (and I always will) from its many recorded performances I have enjoyed under that moniker.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Haydn67 said:


> I still call it the Concertgebouw Orchestra of Amsterdam (and I always will) from its many recorded performances I have enjoyed under that moniker.


Post of the day!!!!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Pugg said:


> Post of the day!!!!


Kind thanks, Pugg :tiphat:


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## Templeton (Dec 20, 2014)

The Vienna Philharmonic above all, both currently and historically. They definitely dominate in terms of my favourite recordings.

Close behind though is the Staatskapelle Dresden, another orchestra with a distinctive sound. Over the pond, I plan to investigate the Los Angeles Philharmonic further, having recently listened to several of their excellent recordings with Giulini. A very nice sound indeed.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

lluissineu said:


> What I'd like to know is: talking about *symphony orchestras* and in *recent times* ( not historically) which are the orchestras whose *sound you like the most* (either in recordings or in concerts).
> Thanks and happy new year to all music lovers.


I'm a long time Chicago, NYPO lover....they still sound the best to me, based on recent, and fairly recent live concerts and recordings. Boston is sounding much better these days, after Levine and Nelsons, after a long, long drought. I really enjoy hearing BSO at present.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> I'm a long time Chicago, NYPO lover....they still sound the best to me, based on recent, and fairly recent live concerts and recordings. Boston is sounding much better these days, after Levine and Nelsons, after a long, long drought. I really enjoy hearing BSO at present.


I subscribed to the NY Philharmonic for quite a few years when I lived in NYC. Their french horns always disappointed me.

If I had to choose ONE American city to settle down in-where the people are vibrant and the arts and sports atmosphere are electric, it would be BOSTON!! I love that city! I would definitely be subscribing to the Boston Symphony if I lived there.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

A little biased, but Chicago here. Not only under Muti now, but historically under such names as Barenboim, Solti, and Reiner.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I wonder how many folks on TC can blindly listen to the top 10 world orchestras and identify them from their playing?

I'm assuming regional differences, such as distinctly German oboe playing will be eliminated or disguised.

Can one really tell the Concertgebouw Orchestra from the Chicago Symphony from listening to each?

I maintain one's "favorite" orchestra is a purely subjective play. Nothing objective about it.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

I really agree. I would add some more, mainly LSO and staatskapelle Dresden


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> I really agree. I would add some more, mainly LSO and staatskapelle Dresden


Yes. Both top tier orchestras. No doubt about it!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Richard8655 said:


> A little biased, but Chicago here. Not only under Muti now, but historically under such names as Barenboim, Solti, and Reiner.


I totally agree, made wonderful recordings.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I wonder how many folks on TC can blindly listen to the top 10 world orchestras and identify them from their playing?
> 
> I'm assuming regional differences, such as distinctly German oboe playing will be eliminated or disguised.
> 
> ...


Of course it is absolutely subjective, and many times it's imposible to tell, but I must admit that for example Berlin PO Is wonderful, but so often they're not my cup of tea. They are quite perfect, but ... It's not my sound (I remember one record I really appreciated: Mozart's 39th with Giulini).


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

In my opinion a big, BIG part of any orchestra sound (other than our familiarity) is the venue in which they play and record. Given any group of top rank orchestras, that fact probably outweighs even the conductor. On that basis you can give +2 to the VPO, RCO and BSO and -1 to the LSO!


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Heck148 said:


> I'm a long time Chicago, NYPO lover....they still sound the best to me, based on recent, and fairly recent live concerts and recordings. Boston is sounding much better these days, after Levine and Nelsons, after a long, long drought. I really enjoy hearing BSO at present.


As far as I'm concerned, I really Have The same impresion about Boston. Lucky you to be able to listen Chicago, New York and Boston...

(Sorry about capital letters: there's a ghost in my Ipad and in the correction tool)


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> A little biased, but Chicago here. Not only under Muti now, but historically under such names as Barenboim, Solti, and Reiner.


Absolutely agreed: Chicago is one of The bests. Personally I prefered Solti and Reiner but Barenboim and Muti are great.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Boston was really down for a long, long time....from Munch, thru Leinsdorf [the low point]....and Ozawa [some gradual improvement].. Levine seemed to invigorate the orchestra, and I think Nelsons is doing a good job as well. nice to have them get back in the game, so to speak...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> Of course it is absolutely subjective, and many times it's imposible to tell, but I must admit that for example Berlin PO Is wonderful, but so often they're not my cup of tea. They are quite perfect, but ... It's not my sound (I remember one record I really appreciated: Mozart's 39th with Giulini).


I don't care for the German oboe "sound". I have a recording of Prokofiev's Third Piano Concerto and that BPO oboist sounds all wrong, IMO for Prokofiev.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Templeton said:


> The Vienna Philharmonic above all, both currently and historically. They definitely dominate in terms of my favourite recordings.
> 
> Close behind though is the Staatskapelle Dresden, another orchestra with a distinctive sound. Over the pond, I plan to investigate the Los Angeles Philharmonic further, having recently listened to several of their excellent recordings with Giulini. A very nice sound indeed.


Vienna Is a classic. They're got a warm and distinctive sound. Staatskapelle Is an incredible orchestra (which matches with The beauty of The city itself). Unfortunately I was once in a Vienna's concert with Sinopoli and I was decieved in some way, but I usual la like The sound in Vienna's recordings.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

To take it a step further, the orchestra sound is also a function of where you sit in the hall. I was strongly reminded of that on my recent visit to Chicago's Orchestra Hall where I felt pummeled by the brass during a Bruckner 7th. Next time I will not sit in the 9th row on the main floor!


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Impossible to choose one at this majestic level of musicianship:
> 
> Boston Symphony
> 
> ...


Great! We, People from The old continent, love all these american orchestras, but you didn't mention New York or Los Angeles amontona The big ones, any reason why.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

VPO is No. 1

After that it's a rotating cast including RCO, CSO, BPO, BSO, CO, and occasionally Czech Philhamonic.


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

lluissineu said:


> Absolutely agreed: Chicago is one of The bests. Personally I prefered Solti and Reiner but Barenboim and Muti are great.


For sure, Solti especially was at the top for all time conductors. I also have much respect for the Concertgebouw. Pugg and Traverso should be proud.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> Great! We, People from The old continent, love all these american orchestras, but you didn't mention New York or Los Angeles amontona The big ones, any reason why.


LA, not too familiar with their work. NY Philharmonic, subscribed to their concerts for many years when living in NYC.
The NYP is over-rated. Their brass section has always left something to be desired. Even so, to sit there in the hall and hear that orchestra "live" 10-15 times a year, was thrilling.

I would gladly give up all my Boston Symphony recordings for a dozen beautiful Valencia oranges from España.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

It doesn't matter to me. I can't tell the difference. The conductor's approach to the music is the only thing I can decipher. Phrasing and tempo, and the type of emphasis placed on certain passages.


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Looking across the recordings made since the end of the Second World War, the London Symphony Orchestra under a range of top conductors, it would be my choice: my CD shelves groan under the weight of LSO recordings!

While not at the very top of the tree, but moving steadily upwards, I would mention my own local band (of course): the RLPO, under Vasily Petrenko who has transformed them after a rather lengthy fallow period.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

The most memorable single concert I've attended (so far) was given by the Berlin Phil back at the end of the 60s/beginning of the 70s sometime, in the ruins of the old Coventry Cathedral with Barenboim conducting Brahms 2 and Schumann 4. Nothing's shaken my allegiance to the BPO since. Rattle's made them "leaner and meaner" and some will think that a good thing, but IMO it isn't a coincidence that the Concertgebouw have since overtaken them as probably the majority choice of British and European critics. Don't want to divert the thread into another Rattle crossfire so I'll leave it there.


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## Judith (Nov 11, 2015)

manyene said:


> Looking across the recordings made since the end of the Second World War, the London Symphony Orchestra under a range of top conductors, it would be my choice: my CD shelves groan under the weight of LSO recordings!
> 
> While not at the very top of the tree, but moving steadily upwards, I would mention my own local band (of course): the RLPO, under Vasily Petrenko who has transformed them after a rather lengthy fallow period.


Saw the RLPO with Vasily last year in Leeds. They were amazing!!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

manyene said:


> While not at the very top of the tree, but moving steadily upwards, I would mention my own local band (of course): the RLPO, under Vasily Petrenko who has transformed them after a rather lengthy fallow period.


...and, speaking as someone who grew up just outside Manchester, so is the Halle with Mark Elder. Having Bridgewater Hall doesn't hurt either!


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I wonder how many folks on TC can blindly listen to the top 10 world orchestras and identify them from their playing?
> 
> I'm assuming regional differences, such as distinctly German oboe playing will be eliminated or disguised.
> 
> ...


"Favorite" orchestras may sometimes be well associated with the sound imparted by the venues or concert halls they usually play or are recorded in.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I wonder how many folks on TC can blindly listen to the top 10 world orchestras and identify them from their playing?
> I'm assuming regional differences, such as distinctly German oboe playing will be eliminated or disguised.
> Can one really tell the Concertgebouw Orchestra from the Chicago Symphony from listening to each?
> I maintain one's "favorite" orchestra is a purely subjective play. Nothing objective about it.


Disagree here - it is quite possible to identify different orchestras by the sounds produced by both orchestra soloists, and by section...
It used to be even easier - one could quite readily tell the Philadelphia Orch from Boston, or NYPO...not quite so easy now - there has been an homogenization, without doubt - but the very top orchestras still nurture and cultivate their particular sounds...
Very difficult now to differentiate between the very good 2nd or 3rd tier orchestras say Seattle from Atlanta, or St Louis from Detroit...


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

hpowders said:


> I wonder how many folks on TC can blindly listen to the top 10 world orchestras and identify them from their playing?
> 
> I'm assuming regional differences, such as distinctly German oboe playing will be eliminated or disguised.
> 
> ...


It is subjective, but then all art is subjective. I think it would be difficult to identify an orchestra by random performance comparison in a blind test. But most casual classical music listeners can appreciate reputation and identify fine performances versus mediocre.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> LA, not too familiar with their work. NY Philharmonic, subscribed to their concerts for many years when living in NYC.
> The NYP is over-rated. Their brass section has always left something to be desired. Even so, to sit there in the hall and hear that orchestra "live" 10-15 times a year, was thrilling.
> 
> I would gladly give up all my Boston Symphony recordings for a dozen beautiful Valencia oranges from España.


We Have good oranges, even in Mallorca. let's make a deal: When you come to Spain I'll invite you to ear oranges and you'll take me to a BSO concert When I come to America. Enjoy.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

manyene said:


> Looking across the recordings made since the end of the Second World War, the London Symphony Orchestra under a range of top conductors, it would be my choice: my CD shelves groan under the weight of LSO recordings!
> 
> While not at the very top of the tree, but moving steadily upwards, I would mention my own local band (of course): the RLPO, under Vasily Petrenko who has transformed them after a rather lengthy fallow period.


I've always thought that british orchestras Have a good level. Maybe Britain Is The Apple of my eyes in many senses, not only in music. Anyway, I think some years ago London Orchestras were among The best orchestras in The world (philharmonia, LPO, LSO, Royal P.O. , ASMF...), but nowadays it seems that only LSO Is in the group of 15 or 20 best orchestras, (at least that's what can be read) don't you think so?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

London SO is a great orchestra, haven't heard them recently, but they've been very fine for many decades...not always so, tho - back in the 50s, the Philharmonia was probably England's best orchestra. Royal PO was also very good...but the LSO gained prominence, IMO, in the late 50s, early 60s, when Pierre Monteux took over, late in his career.

Monteux, along with Reiner, was one of the great orchestra builders of all-time. He brought the LSO up to top level - this was the great orchestra that made so many fine recordings with him, with Kertesz, Solti, Dorati, Previn, etc..
LSO has always done a huge amount of recording - they wouldn't sign an exclusive recording contract with any company - they wanted the freedom to record for anyone, if the price was right...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The London SO is still excellent, releasing new recordings on its own label, _LSO Live_. Haitink's new (2006 anyway) Beethoven symphony cycle on this label is superb.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

lluissineu said:


> Nice. It was a nice orchestra with hundreds of recordings with Neville Marriner and Iona Brown. i like Bell as well. ASMF: 1 point.
> 
> Best wishes


I like ASMF under Marriner and it was and still is one of my favourites. Bell need to prove himself if he can take ASMF into a newer but not quite different direction to a modernized version but still retain the traditional ASMF audience and at the same time acquire newer classical /chamber audiences.

My other favourite are Royal Philharmonic, Berlin PO, Concertgebouw and Chicago SO. I agree with lluissineu that the combination of the conductor and the orchestra will make a difference, since the conductor is part the orchestra and can change how the orchestra sounds from one performance to another. Perhaps the question is "what is your favourite orchestra/ conductor combination?"


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Richard8655 said:


> It is subjective, but then all art is subjective. I think it would be difficult to identify an orchestra by random performance comparison in a blind test. But most casual classical music listeners can appreciate reputation and identify fine performances versus mediocre.


When I learned to listen to classical music many years ago, I learned that UK based orchestra would play UK music better (subjective) than others. This also applies for German based orchestra. For example, I consider Karl Richter's Messiah with LPO a better performance than those recording in the same era. Also, Karajan's 1963 Beethoven cycle was perhaps the best in the same era. In the era that I quote above, orchestra are more homogenous in terms of race, education, musical influence and even gender (Vienna PO) etc. Could this be true because of cultural, traditional or heredity factors in a certain country that make a certain orchestra excels in performing music from those composers of their own country? Food for thought....


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Orchestras are not as important as the conductor who directors them. Members come and go in the orchestras anyway.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Hard to say. I can't say I have one specific orchestra I call my favorite. I tend to favor recordings based on how I like the conductor's interpretation rather than the orchestra itself. On the rare occasion that I choose a recording based on the orchestral playing, it usually ends up being the Solti-era Chicago Symphony for its amazing brass playing or the Berlin Philharmonic of the 60s-90s. I love Bud Herseth's orchestral trumpet playing and whoever played clarinet in Karajan's BPO. Also I will listen to Cleveland Orchestra recordings for Marc Lifshey's oboe playing.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> Orchestras are not as important as the conductor who directors them. Members come and go in the orchestras anyway.


Indeed but the "sound" has to be there, it can only bettered or worst in some cases.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I can't speak for many orchestras but I am quite familiar with the Berlin Philharmonic which has 3 first concertmasters and 2 principals for each section. In any given concert or recording you can have 1 or 2 of the first concertmasters and ony 1 principal from each of the other sections so there is no consistency in the personnel. So, for example, you might be hearing Jonathan Kelly or Albrecht Mayer on oboe, Andreas Ottensamer or Wenzel Fuchs on clarinet, etc., etc. The horn section has 8 members so typically you are hearing some combination of 4 of them. To make it more interesting, for the last few years, the horn section has been short one principal (they just appointed a second who comes from the Dallas Symphony), so whenever Stefan Dohr was elsewhere, there would be always be a substitute brought in, which could sometimes be Eric Terwillinger from the BRSO or, on occasion, Andrew Bain from the LAPO! Everyone one of them are brilliant musicians but the changes can't help but subtly alter the sound.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> Orchestras are not as important as the conductor who directors them. Members come and go in the orchestras anyway.


No, I disagree....orchestras will play with the sound they are used to making...individual members, principals, will perform with characteristic sound and style, unless specifically modified by a conductor. a guest conductor, who comes in only for a short time, cannot possibly address every one of these details in his/her short stay. Conductors, of course, can alter the "big picture", and can address many issues, but, musicians, like all of us, are creatures of habit, they will do what they are accustomed to doing.
Now, a full-time resident music director, can certainly alter the orchestra sound, thru hours of rehearsal and performance, thru changes in personnel.
orchestra members tend to stay constant....conductors come and go, esp in this jet-set age.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Orchestras do have a 'corporate' memory even when there is personnel turnover. There is a story that a past Berlin Philharmonic timpanist told ... It was during a rehearsal in the very early Karajan days. The rehearsal was going along well when the timpanist noticed a sudden and very marked change in the overall sound of the orchestra. When he looked up into the hall, he saw that Furtwangler had just walked into the hall!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Richard8655 said:


> It is subjective, but then all art is subjective. I think it would be difficult to identify an orchestra by random performance comparison in a blind test. But most casual classical music listeners can appreciate reputation and identify fine performances versus mediocre.


Anyone going with any of the American big 5, the Concertgebouw, the Vienna Philharmonic or the Berlin Philharmonic should be satisfied. No need to try and list "favorites". At this level, the playing is as good as it can get.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

My favourite orchestra is our local Vanemuine Symphony. It's nowhere near the best, but it's my favourite, because it's ours - and because its conductor is such a nice guy.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Haydn67 said:


> "Favorite" orchestras may sometimes be well associated with the sound imparted by the venues or concert halls they usually play or are recorded in.


Yes. That could indeed be true. I suffered for years in Philharmonic Hall (Avery Fisher Hall) in Lincoln Center, NYC with the worst acoustics imaginable. It may have helped taint my opinion of the New York Philharmonic's sound. It probably did.

A good point, Haydn67.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> Disagree here - it is quite possible to identify different orchestras by the sounds produced by both orchestra soloists, and by section...
> It used to be even easier - one could quite readily tell the Philadelphia Orch from Boston, or NYPO...not quite so easy now - there has been an homogenization, without doubt - but the very top orchestras still nurture and cultivate their particular sounds...
> Very difficult now to differentiate between the very good 2nd or 3rd tier orchestras say Seattle from Atlanta, or St Louis from Detroit...


It depends how talented one is as a "music" listener. Most average folks couldn't tell the difference, IMHO.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> We Have good oranges, even in Mallorca. let's make a deal: When you come to Spain I'll invite you to ear oranges and you'll take me to a BSO concert When I come to America. Enjoy.


Ha! Ha! I may be going to España in two more summers. Barcelona, first...ending up in Madrid.

You know in Florida we grow pretty decent oranges, illuissineu. The prices for them in the stores, one would think they are being imported from España!!! Ridiculously high!

I do hope you get to come to the US and take in a few concerts!


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> Anyone going with any of the American big 5,


I've always thought the "Big 5" stuff was pretty much baloney...it might have applied for a short time in the mid-late-50s, but it has not had much validity since, or prior to that time. Budget-wise, economically speaking perhaps, but for performance, not...
For years, the highest paid US orchestras were Chicago, then New York...this has changed - 
At present - the highest paid US orchestras are Chicago/LAPO virtually the same, San Francisco, New York, Boston....Philadelphia has fallen on hard times of late, and Cleveland never had a pay scale equal to to top earners...


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> I've always thought the "Big 5" stuff was pretty much baloney...it might have applied for a short time in the mid-late-50s, but it has not had much validity since, or prior to that time. Budget-wise, economically speaking perhaps, but for performance, not...
> For years, the highest paid US orchestras were Chicago, then New York...this has changed -
> At present - the highest paid US orchestras are Chicago/LAPO virtually the same, San Francisco, New York, Boston....Philadelphia has fallen on hard times of late, and Cleveland never had a pay scale equal to to top earners...


From what I've read, Philadelphia and Cleveland have maintained their high orchestral standards.

Boston would be the number one city in which I would want to relocate. Such a nice "vibe" every time I visit. The people seem happy; energetic; alive!

And the combination of world class orchestra and one of the best acoustical showcases in the world, Symphony Hall, Boston...well, I'd be in heaven!

It's also a terrific sports city with the Bruins, Red Sox and Celtics.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

hpowders said:


> From what I've read, Philadelphia and Cleveland have maintained their high orchestral standards.


Cleveland is doing OK, I guess. I don't think Dohnanyi maintained the Szell level, I've not heard them under Welser-Most.. - Philly has had some rough times...budget, salary cuts...they did lose some musicians...but I'm sure the standard is still very high.
It's tough to keep the best musicians when the $$ starts to dry up....



> Boston would be the number one city in which I would want to relocate. Such a nice "vibe" every time I visit. The people seem happy; energetic; alive!


yes, Boston is excellent, lots of good stuff to do....lots of history, if you're into that...Freedom Trail, USS Constitution, Bunker Hill, Lexington/Concord very close by...



> And the combination of world class orchestra and one of the best acoustical showcases in the world, Symphony Hall, Boston...well, I'd be in heaven!


I've heard so many wonderful concerts there...it's great that the BSO is emerging from its lengthy difficulties and trials, which lasted for so many years. Things had really gone downhill, and the Ozawa years showed real stagnation, IMO...Levine certainly energized things, and Nelsons seems to be doing very well..orchestra is playing well for him...



> It's also a terrific sports city with the Bruins, Red Sox and Celtics.


yes, 
NE Patriots, too...


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## jim prideaux (May 30, 2013)

I follow the progress of Legia Warsaw and Sparta Prague at a distance-football teams I have watched while visiting the two cities (and interviewing the manager of Legia for a local magazine)and feel some kind of affinity for-for the same reason I like to subscribe to the notion that the VPO is one of the greatest orchestras having again had the good fortune to attend one of their concerts when I visited the city.......but my local orchestra is the Royal Northern Sinfonia and having attended an increasing number of their concerts during the past few years I feel a loyalty towards them irrespective of any 'hierarchy'.........


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Becca said:


> ...and, speaking as someone who grew up just outside Manchester, so is the Halle with Mark Elder. Having Bridgewater Hall doesn't hurt either!


That's interesting. Recordings made in the Bridgwater Hall don't come across particularly well IMO - the sound is too recessed. Presumably the music sounds better when one's actually there (though as a Scouser I'll bet it's still not as good as our Philharmonic Hall!).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> Cleveland is doing OK, I guess. I don't think Dohnanyi maintained the Szell level, I've not heard them under Welser-Most.. - Philly has had some rough times...budget, salary cuts...they did lose some musicians...but I'm sure the standard is still very high.
> It's tough to keep the best musicians when the $$ starts to dry up....
> 
> yes, Boston is excellent, lots of good stuff to do....lots of history, if you're into that...Freedom Trail, USS Constitution, Bunker Hill, Lexington/Concord very close by...
> ...


Yeah. Ozawa and Dohnanyi-perfect picks for orchestral ruination.

Maybe I will move to Boston someday....but one pays a price....a very high standard of living, perhaps higher than NYC...and I'm not that agile, walking on snow and ice.


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Maybe I will move to Boston someday....but one pays a price....a very high standard of living, perhaps higher than NYC...and I'm not that agile, walking on snow and ice.


And it's full of Democrats. :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Kivimees said:


> And it's full of Democrats. :lol:


I would stand out there. I am an Independent.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Heck148 said:


> No, I disagree....orchestras will play with the sound they are used to making...individual members, principals, will perform with characteristic sound and style, unless specifically modified by a conductor. a guest conductor, who comes in only for a short time, cannot possibly address every one of these details in his/her short stay. Conductors, of course, can alter the "big picture", and can address many issues, but, musicians, like all of us, are creatures of habit, they will do what they are accustomed to doing.
> Now, a full-time resident music director, can certainly alter the orchestra sound, thru hours of rehearsal and performance, thru changes in personnel.
> orchestra members tend to stay constant....conductors come and go, esp in this jet-set age.


If the members stay and have been playing together for a long time, thus developing that "synergy" between themselves, then I agree. But that happens much less now with numerous orchestras where members come and go.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> If the members stay and have been playing together for a long time, thus developing that "synergy" between themselves, then I agree. But that happens much less now with numerous orchestras where members come and go.


No for the reasons that I stated before. Orchestras have a form of corporate memory which gets passed from member to member. How does that happen? Probably in part because of the probationary period that many orchestras have, i.e. a new player has to fit in before they become tenured hence they have an incentive to adopt the group style. In some orchestras, e.g. Berlin and Vienna, that style is also a function of the type of instruments that they use in the brass and woodwind sections.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

ArtMusic said:


> If the members stay and have been playing together for a long time, thus developing that "synergy" between themselves, then I agree. But that happens much less now with numerous orchestras where members come and go.


the very top level of orchestras do not have too much turnover in the ranks, among principals...even when they do, the same concept of sound, articulation,, style, etc persist over long periods of time. You're right tho - it does take some time to develop that uniform concept.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Becca said:


> No for the reasons that I stated before. Orchestras have a form of corporate memory which gets passed from member to member. How does that happen? Probably in part because of the probationary period that many orchestras have, i.e. a new player has to fit in before they become tenured hence they have an incentive to adopt the group style. In some orchestras, e.g. Berlin and Vienna, that style is also a function of the type of instruments that they use in the brass and woodwind sections.


and don't forget - the students of the incumbent musicians are being taught, groomed in the style and sound of the player/ teachers, so they are often chosen to fill vacancies.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

It seems that a visit to Boston Is cumpulsory after reading some of The posts.

Did you watch today's Vienna new year's concert? I couldn't. Is Dudamel as good as some people say? What's your opinion about both (The orchestra and The conductor) in today's concert?


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## Richard8655 (Feb 19, 2016)

lluissineu said:


> It seems that a visit to Boston Is cumpulsory after reading some of The posts.
> 
> Did you watch today's Vienna new year's concert? I couldn't. Is Dudamel as good as some people say? What's your opinion about both (The orchestra and The conductor) in today's concert?


I watched it and thought Dudamel and the performance were superb.


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## DiesIraeCX (Jul 21, 2014)

Vienna Philharmonic, there's something very warm about their sound, perhaps it's the wind section.


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## Radames (Feb 27, 2013)

Well I go to Boston and Montreal all the time. So ...I can't pick! On recording Cleveland and Chicago. Hard to choose between.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Richard8655 said:


> I watched it and thought Dudamel and the performance were superb.


This was really a remarkable performance, I did order the DVD right away.


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## tobaccoleafpie (Jan 1, 2017)

SFS MTT ftw
They are local to me.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

tobaccoleafpie said:


> SFS MTT ftw
> They are local to me.


En do you go yo hear them?


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

Some days ago I was surfing The net and I found in YouTube this video of Shostakovitch's symphonies by Andris Nelsons and The Boston S.O.. I think The orchestra has a superb sound, does anyone agree?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

lluissineu said:


> Some days ago I was surfing The net and I found in YouTube this video of Shostakovitch's symphonies by Andris Nelsons and The Boston S.O.. I think The orchestra has a superb sound, does anyone agree?


Yes. The BSO is a terrific orchestra; one of the best in the US.


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## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Kivimees said:


> And it's full of Democrats. :lol:


With the Democrats, the arts, exceptional educational institutions, medical quality, the Boston Symphony, cool but NOT terribly cold weather, I would love it.


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## msr13 (Jan 7, 2017)

ArtMusic said:


> Orchestras are not as important as the conductor who directors them. Members come and go in the orchestras anyway.


With only regard to live performances-- I think this is a very important point. The direction and conducting prowess is vital, but also the programming choices. What they perform is as important as how they perform.

I am loving Boston right now with Nelsons. I find his performances really inspirational-- especially at Tanglewood. I will miss Gilbert in New York. I was recently saw him do the Brahms' Third and it was magnificent. And, I have greatly enjoyed his new music performances, as well. Rattle with Berlin has been so enjoyable. His Beethoven cycle at Carnegie in November 2015 was worth a week away from work. Tilson Thomas has made San Francisco a top tier orchestra without question.


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## david.allsopp (Jan 18, 2010)

100% agree. I invited BBC to challenge 10 music critics to tell an orchestra from the sound. Pretty confident they would be no more accurate than by guessing. With perhaps the exception of Vienna and some of the still raw East European or Russian bands


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

lluissineu said:


> 1. Orchestras can make a big deal of change in time


You're certainly right there. And this is the main reason I cannot choose a single orchestra that I think has a great sound. They have a great sound in the moment, for this performance or recording, with this conductor, with this work .. but not over all.

As to your example of the Philharmonia, I most recently saw them perform at the QE Hall on the south bank in about 2011, and they were stunning. Brahms No. 1 and the Dvorak Cello Concerto. I'm not sure I've heard a finer performance from a symphony orchestra.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Templeton said:


> The Vienna Philharmonic above all, both currently and historically. They definitely dominate in terms of my favourite recordings.


I saw the VP live here in Munich last year with Gustavo Dudamel conducting, and Lang Lang performing the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1. I must say I was underwhelmed. They were good, just not nearly as good as I was expecting. It really does depend on more factors than orchestra alone.

Or maybe I was just underwhelmed by Lang Lang.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

I'm a big fan of HIP practice, so I like period orchestras, specifically late baroque. But even here, things change over time. At one time I thought Il Giardino Armonico were the best thing since sliced bread, bringing new life to old works and interpreting them in ways that would make any one think differently about composers they had long since written off as being dull and ordinary. But now they just sound like everyone else. On the other hand there are a number of period bands out there who are just trying way too hard, and turn me right off with their excessive dynamics and spiky attacks. One that I've been most recently impressed with and must explore further is the Freiburger Barockorkester.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

My favorite orchestra is the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra. One of a handful of full time orchestras in the country. A live performance of ISO beats any recording as far as I'm concerned.

As per favorite orchestra for recordings . Don't have one. I have good recordings from the famous orchestras and good recordings from the likes of the aforementioned ISO, Utah Symphony, Atlanta Symphony , Vienna Opera Orchestra, and others. In my book, the lesser recognized can turn in equally good performances.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Certain orchestras are better for certain repertoire, but on the right day, any orchestra can sound simply stellar. I love my local Phoenix Symphony for live shows. The orchestra I would most want to see live is the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, both for their space and location. They have made many, many recordings that I have enjoyed.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Haydn67 said:


> With the Democrats, the arts, exceptional educational institutions, medical quality, the Boston Symphony, cool but NOT terribly cold weather, I would love it.


I grew up in the Boston area; it's not so great. Winters are long and cold with a lot of precipitation. Summers are short with a lot of precipitation. And let's not forget all those obnoxious democrats who sneer at everything not connected to the northeast part of the USA. However, the art world is top-rate.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

When I was a student I had a season ticket (because of student reductions) for Manchester's Hallé Orchestra. I would sometimes miss lectures to watch rehearsals and try-outs in the afternoon and one memorable performance was the orchestra performing the music to Chaplin's _City Lights_ alongside a showing of the film.
They were really good at the time, though probably in debt as quite a few orchestras seem to be. I assume they are still good, but I've not heard them in a while. Another I saw around that time was the BBC Philharmonic, also based in Manchester.

I've seen a few minor European orchestras, but never the Berlin Phil or Vienna.

Only seen two American orchestras live: the BSO and the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra which may perhaps be the finest orchestra I've ever seen (that was in the late 80s when Dohnanyi was in charge).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The great orchestras all sound the same these days-Boston, Cleveland, New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Vienna, Berlin, etc;

So for me, it distills down to the conductor and his/her interpretation, since orchestral technical perfection is a given.


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

Pittsburgh Symphony; actual merits irrelevant.

I miss when orchestras had recognizable "national characteristics," like the French and Russian orchestras. Now everything is homogenized excellence.


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

bharbeke said:


> Certain orchestras are better for certain repertoire, but on the right day, any orchestra can sound simply stellar. I love my local Phoenix Symphony for live shows. The orchestra I would most want to see live is the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, both for their space and location. They have made many, many recordings that I have enjoyed.


I Was there in may: prokofiev 3rd piano concerto (with Trifonov) and Mahler's Titan symphony. I could assist to The rehersal and next dar to The performance. Really increíble: What a sound. Gatti is not my cup of tea in Mahler, but The concertgebouw is really my orchestra.
Looking forward to listen to Boston SO and Nelsons in Leipzig next september (Mahler's third symphony)


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Orchestras don't matter. Conductors matter to a degree. It's the music that should matter. The caliber of players being produced these days is astonishing and you can hear fine playing in Omaha, Tucson, Cheyenne, Des Moines and other places in Fly Over country. Some of the small, unknown orchestras in Germany play superbly, as their recordings on CPO testify. I've heard some of the big guys (Chicago, New York, Philadelphia) play poorly and uninspired. That's why an exciting, vibrant conductor is so important. 

Maybe 60-70 years ago, when orchestras had their own distinct sound, and the regional groups were subpar, it would have mattered to hear the great orchestras of the world. I've heard all the major US orchestras and a lot of the minor ones. I've heard all of the larger ones in London and England. Vienna numerous times. Thrilling? Sure, but I soon got over it. It's the music that matters. There is one trend that's happening that really concerns me: so many US orchestras are playing so much pops crap nowadays that it's taking the sharpness, precision, and style out of their playing: they're getting sloppy. It shows in classics concerts. Some of the biggies like Chicago and Boston don't have to succumb to so many pops gigs, but in the orchestras that are doing it, it's a concern.


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## Rach Man (Aug 2, 2016)

geralmar said:


> Pittsburgh Symphony; actual merits irrelevant.
> 
> I miss when orchestras had recognizable "national characteristics," like the French and Russian orchestras. Now everything is homogenized excellence.


My favorite orchestra is also the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. They have produced some really great CDs, especially with Manfred Honeck at the helm.

I have also gone to 2-3 concerts each year over the last few years. Their live performances are spectacular.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Orchestras have developed a more homogeneous sound in the last few decades, but institutional memory is still amazing. For instance, for years, due to conductors and players, the BSO had a sound that leaned French. Leinsdorf corrected a lot of problems that his predecessors had left, but during the Ozawa years, Haitinck guested a recording of Daphnis et Chloe and was amazed at remnants of idiomatic Ravel playing that the orchestra retained. "Munch is still there," he reportedly marveled. 

The VPO will always sound like the VPO, in part because the horn section plays horns in F rather then the almost universally used E-flat variety. I don't know about today because I haven't heard it, but for years the Philhrmonia hadf a distinctively "dark" "rich" sound for a relatively small (80-85 piece) orchestra. The BPO's 1960s recording the Mahler Ninth wth Barbirolli was a landmark for its time -- and one can hear remnants of that performance in subsequent recordings by Karajan and Abbado.


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## R3PL4Y (Jan 21, 2016)

My favorite orchestra is the LSO, as they are a real first rate orchestra, but they are willing to play a lot of repertoire that other orchestras aren't. They are usually successful at idiomatic playing of a wide variety of repertoire, whether it is Mozart, Mahler, Stravinsky, or Schoenberg.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Alessandro Scarlatti, JS Bach, Mozart are my favorite orchestral composers so far, there is a lot of good stuff never heard to be honest.


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## les24preludes (May 1, 2018)

For me it's the Czech Philharmonic. It remains an orchestra with real character, especially in the brass and winds. Makes a lot of the better known orchestras sound bland. 

I would equally nominate the Chicago SO. The only orchestra I know that can swing like the Basie Band. Their Rite of Spring under Ozawa is literally amazing - listen to how the final section swings!


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

As an earlier poster has mentioned, there is a tendency these days towards homogeneity of sound. I think this is partly due to the vast availability of recorded music, and the technology of modern (especially digital) recording. A quest to be as perfect as everyone else, enabled by established studio recording techniques and heavily-edited results. But many great orchestras when heard live fail to fulfil the promise of what you hear on CD. For me, the Vienna Philharmonic is one such band. For this reason I shall always rank the Philharmonia much higher in esteem. They are consistently amazing live performers.

But which would you prefer? An orchestra who sound great, and who sound like themselves no matter who is behind the baton, or an orchestra whose sound canvas is readily moulded by the character of the person on the podium?


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

lluissineu said:


> A month ago I was in Berlin, Leipzig and Dresde. I had The chance to listen to three of The most famous orchestras not only from Germany, but in the world: Berlin PO, Gewandhaus and Dresden Staatskapelle. In Leipzig I was told that Chaiily is a wonderful conductor but not so as a human being.
> 
> After coming back home, I've been wondering which orchestras I liked more. Surfing the internet, it seems that in Europe british critics tend to consider The RCO as The best orchestra in The world, while continental critics are more German and give The Berlin PO The first position. After both orchestras there's a bunch of others ( Vienna, LSO, Chicago, Bavarian RSO...)
> 
> ...


Very hard to say, not least because I don't get to hear live performances very often. To my ears, an orchestra is an orchestra: how can you tell whether performance differences are due to hall acoustics or recording choices, the conductor, or even whether the leads were just having a bad night?

I really enjoyed the last live concert I attended, with the Royal Scottish National Orchestra...but then I also enjoyed the CBSO and the Royal Phil before that. I wasn't keen on the Moscow Symphony, but maybe I just don't like Tchaikovsky and that I was sat too close to the front...


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

I'm a fan of the Karajan Soup, so the Berlin Phil will be up there historically. Today, not so much. Munchner Phil also a very fine orchestra, especially under Celi. Cleveland under Szell was probably the best orchestra in the world, though.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

For sheer sound the BPO under Karajan. The old Philarmonia (also HvK) was a very fine orchestra though.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Tbh, I don't have a 'favourite' orchestra but must admit to a soft spot for the Czech Philharmonic (for consistently great playing) and the Halle Orchestra (cos I'm a Mancunian) . Otherwise every orchestra has knocked out great performances at one time or another.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Well, many anyway. Try the Portsmouth Sinfonia.

And then there's England's The Really Terrible Orchestra


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## endelbendel (Jul 7, 2018)

i go for LSO when there is a choice among recordings. With BSO the 'home' orch and the superlative sound in Symphony Hall, another favorite for sonics and feelings.


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## distantprommer (Sep 26, 2011)

For me it is and always will be the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra. I was brought up on RCO concerts and throughout my teen years I attended very many concerts in the Concertgebouw.


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## Highwayman (Jul 16, 2018)

I have a personal affinity towards Ormandy's Philly and I find Klemperer's Philharmonia unbeatable but more generally I think Berlin Phillarmonic is the most established orchestra...


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## geralmar (Feb 15, 2013)

R3PL4Y said:


> My favorite orchestra is the LSO, as they are a real first rate orchestra, but they are willing to play a lot of repertoire that other orchestras aren't. They are usually successful at idiomatic playing of a wide variety of repertoire, whether it is Mozart, Mahler, Stravinsky, or Schoenberg.


The LSO is also an excellent movie soundtrack orchestra. Most standard "classical" orchestras sound subdued and tentative when forced to play "movie music" in recordings and pops concerts. I have several recordings of Henry Mancini's "Lifeforce" theme, and the LSO is the most razorsharp and uninhibited.


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## Hugo9000 (Aug 6, 2018)

Current or recent:
Singapore Symphony Orchestra under Lan Shui (thanks to their many gorgeous recordings on BIS)
The English Concert under Pinnock


Historically:
Vienna Philharmonic under Karajan
The Philadelphia Orchestra under Ormandy
Cleveland under Szell
Boston Symphony


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

The issue of homogeneous sounding orchestras has been mentioned a number of times, usually with respect to the effects of recording, digital technology etc. What hasn't been mentioned, and which probably contributes the most, is what a broad range of nationalities and backgrounds will be found in most western orchestras. If you aren't drawing from a narrow group of musicians with similar backgrounds and education, it is not surprising that the good orchestras tend to sound similar. Just look at the Berlin Philharmonic, they have 3 first concertmasters, Daniel Strabawa (Poland), Daishin Kashimoto (Anglo-Japanese) and Noah Bendix-Balgley (USA), and in the recent past there was also Guy Braunstein (Israel). As you look through some of the other principals ... Finland, Australia, UK, France, etc., etc.!


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

I do agree with the fact that many orchestras Have a good sound, that conductors have a lot to do about The sound, that concert halls Have a huge influence in how orchestras sound, that orchestras are not only nurtured with local musicians..., but maybe as a result of The combinación of all these factors I do really notice a different sound in live concerts.

Last year I had the chance to assist to these performances:

- Gewandhaus Orchestra. K Gilbert, Bartok in The Gewandhaus.
- Berlin PO - I. Fisher, in the philharmonie Berlin
- Sachsische staatskapelle Dresde, Semperoper, Dresde
- RCO-D. Gatti- Mahler, Concertebouw, Amsterdam 
- Boston SO- A. Nelsons- Mahler, Gewandhaus, Leipzig.
- Gewandhaus O- A. Nelsons- Bruckner, Gewandhaus, Leipzig
- Netherlands Phil O - J Weilerstein- Shostakovitch, Concertgebouw, Amsterdam

Even though the concert hall and The conductor are The same, BSO and Gewandhaus O strings and brass are very different.

Despite The superb sound of The RCO in The Concertgebouw, Gatti's version of Mahler's Titan was not my cup of tea.

My next concerts are in London:LSO- Haitink (Mahler), in The Barbican, and LPO and Phil O. in Royal Festival Hall. Once I was told LSO and NYPO qualities were shadowed by The por sound of their concert halls.

In may I'm planning visiting The BRSO in Munich Gasteig with D. Harding, apagan Gewandhaus-Nelson's and BPO-haitink (if I get tickets)


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## lluissineu (Dec 27, 2016)

My point is: I think The combination of Orchestra+conductor+concert hall produces a certain sound which is different from other combination. You need to add the inspiration to get The perfect equation (which is different for each and one of us).

IMO, although there are other factors (conductor, concert hall...) every orchestra sounds somehow differently (which doesn't mean always the same).

In that sense I love The RCO, The Boston SO, LSO (in recordings, never been in a live concert)...

I found The BPO almost perfect, powerful, bright, multifaceted... But... Usually it's not my favourite sound.


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