# SOPRANO TOURNAMENT: (By Request): Lehmann vs Fleming



## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Lotte Lehmann, Germany, 1888-1976






Renee Fleming, USA, 1959-






Who's singing did you prefer and why?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Well as recorded Fleming. Of course, just what Lehmann would have sounded like on a modern recording is another matter.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm not fond of Fleming's generally soporific singing, so Lehmann who sings off the text and infllects them with meaning.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Both sopranos have clear voices well-suited to Strauss, but I think we can hear that Lehmann's instrument is more ample and that this makes a difference; she was successful, after all, in Wagner, while Fleming sensibly avoided that repertoire. The sensuous beauties of Korngold's orchestration are more or less lost in Lehmann's recording, and that makes a difference to the effect of the music, but I find the solidity and vibrancy of Lehmann's voice compelling enough to overcome that deficit. We hear Fleming working hard to make the music interesting and project an ecstatic mood, and she succeeds pretty well; but ecstasy seems inherent in Lehmann's voice and temperament, and for me her delivery is paradoxically simpler and more potent.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

MAS said:


> I'm not fond of Fleming's generally soporific singing, so Lehmann who sings off the text and infllects them with meaning.


I've always felt that the German language sounded more beautiful coming out of Lehmann's mouth than it actually is. It's one thing that makes her singing of both opera and song special.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

These are getting rather tricky. One is an old recording and the other is more modern. Also it is difficult to track the same passage by the two, they are so differently marked.
Being a devout lover of the voice of Renee Fleming when she doesn't use her swoops, I was certain she would be my choice hands down because of her velvet throat but by gum I ended up choosing Lehmann for this one.

Not being familiar with the aria I have no idea what to compare or look for so I simply had to go with the one's whose performance touched me more.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

As usual, Lehmann's top is a bit strained, but otherwise her performance is stellar. I can hear her voice just fine, and it is clearer, better focused, better coordinated, and yes, even with the recording limitations, more beautiful than Fleming's. I would rather listen to Fleming than most current Met singers, even if I don't rate her singing very highly in the grad scheme of things. She is nasal and the bottom is weak and her top sounds a bit strained also. Like Norman, I think she has a decent handle on the piece, but Lehmann is overall superior there as well.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

At 2:56 we get a photo of Geraldine Farrar.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> As usual, Lehmann's top is a bit strained, but otherwise her performance is stellar. I can hear her voice just fine, and it is clearer, better focused, better coordinated, and yes, even with the recording limitations, more beautiful than Fleming's. I would rather listen to Fleming than most current Met singers, even if I don't rate her singing very highly in the grad scheme of things. She is nasal and the bottom is weak and her top sounds a bit strained also. Like Norman, I think she has a decent handle on the piece, but Lehmann is overall superior there as well.


Are you really listening to Renée Fleming like I am. Or maybe your sound equipment needs adjusting if you think she is nasal and her bottom is weak with her top strained. But isn't that is a formula you trot out for every singer who is not on 78s? Pity the more than two million peopke who bought her recordings!


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Flemings voice works better for me in this aria, so she gets my vote. I didn't find Lehman "a bit strained", but very strained at times. I have to confess to some bias though - Fleming is still one of the singers I enjoy most in the modern era.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Fleming is taken from a recital disc called _Hommage_, which is something of a mixed bag, though the Korngold is certainly one of the best things on that disc. I really liked her performance here and of course, as the sound is a lot better, we get the benefit of hearing more of Korngold's glorious orchestratation. On the other hand, there is an abandon and rapture in Lehmann's performance which Fleming doesn't quite capture.

I like Fleming. I have a lot of her recital records, this one included, but, out of two excellent renditions, Lehmann is my choice despite the ancient sound. I hadn't actually heard the Lehmann before so it was quite a discovery.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

I find Fleming's soft voice more attractive than the more metalic Lehmann and I think Fleming has more expression in the first part of the aria. However, her lack of legato and annunciation bother me. I would probably have voted for Fleming if we were only going by the first three minutes.

In the second, more passionate half of the aria (which isn't one that is that familiar to me) Lehmann really comes into her own and this is where some steel is needed. It's this metal that means Lehmann soars (something needed in Strauss too), whereas when Fleming gets to that bit there is no change in mood and I just get the feeling that the aria has gone on too long. (I noticed more metal in Fleming's voice than I have in the past and especially in Strauss.)

I expected to like Fleming more because this is very much her rep, but Lehmann's text based approach in the first half and passionate abandon in the second means that she wins my vote.

N.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I voted Lehmann.
Don't get me wrong, this is not "vintage is always better" case and Lehmann is indeed strained in top register (some of it might be attributed to much more primitive recording tech - opera voices demolish microphones! But the diction and articulation, the shaping of each phrase are all unmatched.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

Azol said:


> Don't get me wrong, this is not "vintage is always better" case and Lehmann is indeed strained in top register (some of it might be attributed to much more primitive recording tech - opera voices demolish microphones!


That does sometimes happen, and I've heard huge differences even between different transfers. I think in Lehmann's case it's her technique though because this is very common in her recordings across her career and across recording methods.

Renee Fleming literally teaches her students in masterclasses to sing nasally. She doesn't call it that because being nasal is still generally recognized as a fault, but that's what she's doing. You can hear it really clearly in her own singing as well.




At 14:00 she has her do an exercise to get the voice "in the mask", and is repeatedly pointing to and gesturing toward her nose and sinuses.





At 7:10 she begins to do exercises that, again, have the effect of making the voice nasal. She continually gestures towards the nose. I'm not making it up, and you can hear it in the her singing if you listen carefully.

Also, as far as old recordings go, I do not universally or uncritically prefer older recordings. Of course I would like to have all these great singers of the past in better sound. Even better, I'd like to have singers who can sing the way they do today that I could go see live. I would point out, however, that in almost every poll that we've had so far, the older singer won. The exceptions were still were close. I don't take that as proof of anything other than that there are a lot of people who agree with me that even imperfect recordings can be enjoyable and rewarding if they were done of great artists.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

vivalagentenuova said:


> That does sometimes happen, and I've heard huge differences even between different transfers. I think in Lehmann's case it's her technique though because this is very common in her recordings across her career and across recording methods.
> 
> Renee Fleming literally teaches her students in masterclasses to sing nasally. She doesn't call it that because being nasal is still generally recognized as a fault, but that's what she's doing. You can hear it really clearly in her own singing as well.
> 
> ...


So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming? I find that most interesting! It is of course not to produce a nasal sound but to project the sound forward and produce more resonance. I have seen vocal coaches do it. I can actually remember attending a Peter Pears master class many years ago where he was making the same point. Mind you, what did he know?
So you folks like a more old fashioned style of singing? You are entitled to your point of view.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Handelian said:


> So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming? I find that most interesting!


So you honestly believe you know anything about singing that qualifies you to question vivalagentenuova's knowledge of it?


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Handelian said:


> So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming? I find that most interesting! It is of course not to produce a nasal sound but to project the sound forward and produce more resonance. I have seen vocal coaches do it. I can actually remember attending a Peter Pears master class many years ago where he was making the same point. Mind you, what did he know?
> So you folks like a more old fashioned style of singing? You are entitled to your point of view.


If modern teaching methods consistently produce less exciting results I will vote with my wallet. Nothing more, nothing less.

P.S. By the way, young Ms Fleming was absolutely exciting in bel canto repertoire, for example in Donizetti's Rosmonda d'Inghilterra. It's sensational in my opinion.

P.P.S. State of modern operatic singing


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Handelian said:


> So you folks like a more old fashioned style of singing?





Azol said:


> If modern teaching methods consistently produce less exciting results I will vote with my wallet. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> P.S. By the way, young Ms Fleming was absolutely exciting in bel canto repertoire, for example in Donizetti's Rosmonda d'Inghilterra. It's sensational in my opinion.
> 
> P.P.S. State of modern operatic singing


It does seem to be the case that there's a lot of reference to "The Good Old Days", "It's not as good as it used to be" on here. This is unfortunate, as we have some great singers out there today. Fleming happens to be one of them, as does (was?) Gheorghiu. However, the voice must fit the role. I've seen references on here that state things such as "Tenors should have a dark voice". I would respectfully disagree with such generalisations. Roles that require a Tenor with a dark voice should have such a singer. Roles such as Nemorino really don't suit a dark voice at all and require, in my opinion, a singer with a lighter voice.

Mention has been made on this thread of the fact that Nehmann's top is, to put it diplomatically, less than perfect. As I said earlier I found it very strained and, for me, that top rules her out of contention - it's so flawed that I find it ruins my enjoyment of the piece.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Azol said:


> If modern teaching methods consistently produce less exciting results I will vote with my wallet. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> P.S. By the way, young Ms Fleming was absolutely exciting in bel canto repertoire, for example in Donizetti's Rosmonda d'Inghilterra. It's sensational in my opinion.
> 
> P.P.S. State of modern operatic singing


I vote with my wallet too!I have some excellent recordings! In good sound too! Other people's carping on certain websites doesn't spoil my enjoyment - or that of the trained singers I know!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Aerobat said:


> It does seem to be the case that there's a lot of reference to "The Good Old Days", "It's not as good as it used to be" on here. This is unfortunate, as we have some great singers out there today. Fleming happens to be one of them, as does (was?) Gheorghiu. However, the voice must fit the role. I've seen references on here that state things such as "Tenors should have a dark voice". I would respectfully disagree with such generalisations. Roles that require a Tenor with a dark voice should have such a singer. Roles such as Nemorino really don't suit a dark voice at all and require, in my opinion, a singer with a lighter voice.
> 
> Mention has been made on this thread of the fact that Nehmann's top is, to put it diplomatically, less than perfect. As I said earlier I found it very strained and, for me, that top rules her out of contention - it's so flawed that I find it ruins my enjoyment of the piece.


Which "good old days" are we talking about here? Fleming has now retired from the operatic stage and Gheorghiu (55 last September) can't be far behind.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Handelian said:


> So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming? I find that most interesting! It is of course not to produce a nasal sound but to project the sound forward and produce more resonance. I have seen vocal coaches do it. I can actually remember attending a Peter Pears master class many years ago where he was making the same point. Mind you, what did he know?
> So you folks like a more old fashioned style of singing? You are entitled to your point of view.


I have studied with singers, teachers and coaches from The Met, Bayreuth, La Scala, SF Opera, you name it, and not one of them has a knowledge of vocal technique to match Vivalagentenuova. If you read with an open mind it should be obvious to you that Viva is at a world class level when it comes to vocal technique. I guarantee that V does indeed know more about opera singing than Renee Fleming. Probably quite a bit more. We're very lucky to have V.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Tsaraslondon said:


> Which "good old days" are we talking about here? Fleming has now retired from the operatic stage and Gheorghiu (55 last September) can't be far behind.


 Hence my comment of Gheorghiu being "was?". At least Fleming retired at the right time and didn't try to keep going too long.

However, there do seem to be a large contingent of posters on here for whom Sutherland and Callas were the last operatic sopranos who had any redeeming qualities. This completely ignores the current generation of musicians who have much to offer in the right roles. I suspect that when I'm older I may be the same, and consider Gheorghiu and Fleming as the last sopranos worth listening too, although I sincerely hope that this won't happen.

There seem to be some very exciting younger singers around in most fachs at present, and I'm looking forward to seeing them develop, and hopefully being able to see them in opera houses again in the next few years. My personal view is that we should be looking for, supporting, and developing emerging talent rather than looking back to the past.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Aerobat said:


> It does seem to be the case that there's a lot of reference to "The Good Old Days", "It's not as good as it used to be" on here. This is unfortunate, as we have some great singers out there today.


There's a lot of reference to "it's not as good as it used to be" because it's not as good as it used to be and we're reminded of it every day. There's no legitimate argument that can be made that this isn't the case if one listens and compares, so I don't know why people take issue. Just tired of being reminded?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> There's a lot of reference to "it's not as good as it used to be" because it's not as good as it used to be and we're reminded of it every day. There's no legitimate argument that can be made that this isn't the case if one listens and compares, so I don't know why people take issue. Just tired of being reminded?


I don't know why people need to keep reminding us if it's so obvious. Seems as though people have an issue with it. That they must convince themselves


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Bonetan said:


> There's a lot of reference to "it's not as good as it used to be" because it's not as good as it used to be and we're reminded of it every day. There's no legitimate argument that can be made that this isn't the case if one listens and compares, so I don't know why people take issue. Just tired of being reminded?


Just tired of the negativity towards anything new, and towards the current / upcoming generations. It would be far better to be supportive, and to help the upcoming generations to develop, rather than endlessly looking back to the past.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Handelian said:


> So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming? I find that most interesting! It is of course not to produce a nasal sound but to project the sound forward and produce more resonance. I have seen vocal coaches do it. I can actually remember attending a Peter Pears master class many years ago where he was making the same point. Mind you, what did he know?
> So you folks like a more old fashioned style of singing? You are entitled to your point of view.


Yes, you are correct, the desired result is to have a sound that projects and penetrates better. I think we all agree that this is what would result from good technique. The issue that Viva (and I have) is that many teachers and singers today don't know the best way to achieve that and their methods produce the undesirable result of nasal singing. Technique involves using the right muscles and combinations of dynamics, pitch and vowel that result in good singing (one aspect of which is to project the voice). Technique is functional. It's also surprisingly counter-intuitive. If you try and direct the voice 'into the mask' or 'into the chest' to add resonance you don't get the result you are trying for. The best exercises to add 'head resonance' or what some call singing 'in the mask' is to use exercises on the 'i' and 'u' vowels in the upper part of the voice in falsetto (for men) or whistle (for women). You can also do the 'muto' exercise, which is similar to the one that Fleming uses in the video above, but the mouth should be open and relaxed (how anyone can think that clamping your jaw down on a pencil is going to improve a person's singing is beyond me).

There is a difference between a teacher of singing technique and a vocal coach. The former teaches the technique of singing, the muscular movements and the mechanics of the art, if you like. A coach teaches interpretation, reminds the singer of the notes in the score and gives insights into the style of the music. They are two different disciplines and normally carried out by different people. Most of the teachers I have had have been good at one rather than the other. Perhaps Fleming is a great coach, but doesn't know enough about the mechanics of good technique to pass them on to others (and just because a singer knows how to sing well themselves doesn't mean that they understand the mechanics to such a degree that they can pass them on). Many famous singers already had a large part of their techniques naturally and so haven't had to learn how to make it work.

N.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Yes, you are correct, the desired result is to have a sound that projects and penetrates better. I think we all agree that this is what would result from good technique. The issue that Viva (and I have) is that many teachers and singers today don't know the best way to achieve that and their methods produce the undesirable result of nasal singing. Technique involves using the right muscles and combinations of dynamics, pitch and vowel that result in good singing (one aspect of which is to project the voice). Technique is functional. It's also surprisingly counter-intuitive. If you try and direct the voice 'into the mask' or 'into the chest' to add resonance you don't get the result you are trying for. The best exercises to add 'head resonance' or what some call singing 'in the mask' is to use exercises on the 'i' and 'u' vowels in the upper part of the voice in falsetto (for men) or whistle (for women). You can also do the 'muto' exercise, which is similar to the one that Fleming uses in the video above, but the mouth should be open and relaxed (how anyone can think that clamping your jaw down on a pencil is going to improve a person's singing is beyond me).
> 
> There is a difference between a teacher of singing technique and a vocal coach. The former teaches the technique of singing, the muscular movements and the mechanics of the art, if you like. A coach teaches interpretation, reminds the singer of the notes in the score and gives insights into the style of the music. They are two different disciplines and normally carried out by different people. Most of the teachers I have had have been good at one rather than the other. Perhaps Fleming is a great coach, but doesn't know enough about the mechanics of good technique to pass them on to others (and just because a singer knows how to sing well themselves doesn't mean that they understand the mechanics to such a degree that they can pass them on). Many famous singers already had a large part of their techniques naturally and so haven't had to learn how to make it work.
> 
> N.


Maybe she could have you there to help her.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

I really enjoy a lot of Renee Fleming's singing, and enjoyed greatly a concert with the Seattle Symphony that was simply thrilling, not to mention that she was the single most glamorous person I have ever seen in the flesh. That being said, I don't think this piece brings out the best in her. I am not familiar with this gorgeous piece nor have I heard Lehmann in years, but Lehmann made this a much more interesting piece to me. Her voice is so beautiful!!! She gets my vote.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Lehmann's voice may be a little tight at the very top, but there is no change in the timbre or vibrato, or any feeling of insecurity. The technique is perfect all the way up. I don't know why anyone has a problem with it, but I suppose we all hear what we hear.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Lehmann's voice may be a little tight at the very top, but there is no change in the timbre or vibrato, or any feeling of insecurity. The technique is perfect all the way up. I don't know why anyone has a problem with it, but I suppose we all hear what we hear.


...and, in many cases, we hear what we want to hear.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Handelian said:


> So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming? I find that most interesting! It is of course not to produce a nasal sound but to project the sound forward and produce more resonance. I have seen vocal coaches do it. I can actually remember attending a Peter Pears master class many years ago where he was making the same point. Mind you, what did he know?
> So you folks like a more old fashioned style of singing? You are entitled to your point of view.


You've just illustrated by your support of Madam Fleming's exercice that your knowledge of the voice is as lacking as hers. Viva is indeed more knowledgeable than a great deal of current operatic singers, for if it were the opposite, then the level of singing would be much higher.

And what knowledge would enable you to discredit Viva's comments? You have shown time and time again you profound disinterest for historical recordings, which are the main gateway into understanding and appreciating the grand operatic tradition. So many times on this forum have you expressed scorn towards members who appreciate historical recordings, saying that the sound is so bad one cannot hear a thing. Well, such willfull ignorance more than disqualifies you from mocking and arrogantly putting down members who's knowledge elevate this forum.

And by the way, it has nothing to do with style, but with the natural working of the vocal organ. There is a reason why barely any singers can bring justice to Wagner, Verdi, Bellini, Puccini, Mascagni, Berlioz, Bizet and so many other great composers. The teaching is wrong, and Madam Fleming is one exemple out of many of the misinformation and stupidity being passed down to young singers who are only willing to learn.

And now David, instead of accusing us of nostalgia, why don't you show us examples of modern singers who can comapre to the likes of Hans Reinmar, Gino Bechi, Lina Bruna-Rasa, Ebe Stignani, Gotthelf Pistor, Alexander Kipnis, Emmanuel List, Mario del Monaco, Franco Corelli, Tito Schipa, Beniamino Gigli, Enrico Caruso, Rosa Ponselle, Maria Callas, Renata Tebaldi, Giuseppe di Stefano, Giuseppe di Luca, Riccardo Stracciari, Florence Austral, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, Frederich Schorr, Lauritz Melchior, Ludwig Suthaus, Ezio Pinza, Cesare Siepi, Georges Thill etc.... (I could name so many other singers....). Of course some singers of the past were sub-par, but the amount of fantastic singers was so much higher than it is today.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Aerobat said:


> There seem to be some very exciting younger singers around in most fachs at present, and I'm looking forward to seeing them develop, and hopefully being able to see them in opera houses again in the next few years. My personal view is that we should be looking for, supporting, and developing emerging talent rather than looking back to the past.


Well one of the best way to support young singers is to give them everything they need in order for them to compare with their more than eminent collegues who are now gone. A tradition survives by keeping the standards to a high level, which demands a great knowledge of history. Looking back to the past, as you say, enables us to gain such a knowledge. Otherwise, we are lost and prone to commit mistakes which could easily be avoided. Teaching to sing in the mask (aka nasality) and to not use the chest voice are such mistakes which could have been avoided...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> ...and, in many cases, we hear what we want to hear.


I think it's exceptionally easy to do this in the case of singing.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Becca said:


> ...and, in many cases, we hear what we want to hear.


And believe what we want to believe!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal98 said:


> And now David, instead of accusing us of nostalgia, why don't you show us examples of modern singers who can comapre to the likes of Hans Reinmar, Gino Bechi, Lina Bruna-Rasa, Ebe Stignani, Gotthelf Pistor, Alexander Kipnis, Emmanuel List, Mario del Monaco, Franco Corelli, Tito Schipa, Beniamino Gigli, Enrico Caruso, Rosa Ponselle, Maria Callas, Renata Tebaldi, Giuseppe di Stefano, Giuseppe di Luca, Riccardo Stracciari, Florence Austral, Kirsten Flagstad, Marjorie Lawrence, Frederich Schorr, Lauritz Melchior, Ludwig Suthaus, Ezio Pinza, Cesare Siepi, Georges Thill etc.... (I could name so many other singers....). Of course some singers of the past were sub-par, but the amount of fantastic singers was so much higher than it is today.


An excellent challenge, unlikely to be met. Here's another: name one opera by Verdi or Wagner which could be cast as well today as it could during the decades between 1900 and 1950. For that matter, extend that period to 1980.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Parsifal98 said:


> Well one of the best way to support young singers is to give them everything they need in order for them to compare with their more than eminent collegues who are now gone. A tradition survives by keeping the standards to a high level, which demands a great knowledge of history. Looking back to the past, as you say, enables us to gain such a knowledge. Otherwise, we are lost and prone to commit mistakes which could easily be avoided. Teaching to sing in the mask (aka nasality) and to not use the chest voice are such mistakes which could have been avoided...


In that case, my challenge to all current vocal coaches is to do this in a positive way, not just by highlighting the negative elements. I coach other areas, and my approach is always to highlight each individuals strengths, whilst helping the to develop the areas where they have weaknesses. Unfortunately, what I see on here is simply a high degree of attack on the weaknesses, which I find quite discouraging for the development of future artists - the usual approach is simply to point out that 'x' from the past was so much better. One area where I agree wholeheartedly is the lack of development of chest voice in a lot of (not all) modern singers. However, rather than simply criticise, it's necessary to work with coaches and teachers to develop this area! I don't see why this isn't being done, and from comments made earlier it would seem that we have so folks on here who are active in the area of voice tuition and coaching.

I'd add that I'm not a vocalist or vocal coach - this last person who tried to teach me to sing said something along the lines of "You have a voice that could curdle milk!". For this reason I've stuck with being an instrumentalist, but have a great love of vocal music of all types. When I'm coaching people, regardless of subject, motivating people to develop in a positive way is my most important area of focus.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

I might be naive but when I hear someone who is a leader in their field, I do look at what I can learn rather than try and pull them apart. It always seems rather presumptuous when you have had people who have been internationally acclaimed for us to try and pull them apart. So when I have heard, talked to or interviewed people who are leaders in their field, I have always tried to learn from them rather than put my own four-pennyworth in. Seems to me reasonable that they might just know something we can all learn from.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> An excellent challenge, unlikely to be met. Here's another: name one opera by Verdi or Wagner which could be cast as well today as it could during the decades between 1900 and 1950. For that matter, extend that period to 1980.


And I don't think anyone would object to the sound quality on studio recordings made 1950-80.

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Handelian said:


> I might be naive but when I hear someone who is a *leader in their field*, I do look at what I can learn rather than try and pull them apart. It always seems rather presumptuous when you have had people who have been internationally acclaimed for us to try and pull them apart. So when I have heard, talked to or interviewed people who are leaders in their field, I have always tried to learn from them rather than put my own four-pennyworth in. Seems to me reasonable that they might just know something we can all learn from.


The concept of great singers not necessarily making great teachers is not new. Fleming is/was a leader in the field of singing. The video some of us were commenting on was of Fleming as a voice buider. Can you name any of the singers she has taught and improved their technique?

I think we can see from the many threads comparing two singers that people are mentioning positive things about the singers even when they prefer the other singer.

N.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> The concept of great singers not necessarily making great teachers is not new. Fleming is/was a leader in the field of singing. The video some of us were commenting on was of Fleming as a voice buider. Can you name any of the singers she has taught and improved their technique?
> 
> I think we can see from the many threads comparing two singers that people are mentioning positive things about the singers even when they prefer the other singer.
> 
> N.


You are, I assume, a leader in the field of voice coaching? More so than Fleming? Just that I believe when someone has risen to the top of the international ladder it might be a good idea not to develop an attitude that we know better than they do. There is a reason why they are at the top!

The problem to me is when person(s) always without fail has negative things to say about singers of the modern era. It seems they have a set formula which they trot out and squeeze everyone into. I just feel sorry that some people can't seem to enjoy any of today's singers which I think is their loss.


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

The Conte said:


> And I don't think anyone would object to the sound quality on studio recordings made 1950-80.
> 
> N.


You might be surprised. Especially 1950s to 1970s. Things generally improved during the 1980s and 90s. Some (not all) of the recordings made pre-1980 are truly dreadful. I'm perhaps unusual in that I've built two dedicated music rooms at home, one purely for listening and watching, and one for playing. The one that's relevant here is the 'listening and watching' room, which has some very high end audio equipment. This is incredibly revealing of the music that's played and doesn't tolerate poor quality recordings, as every detail and nuance is audible and obvious.

Having invested a lot of time and effort in building a room that's intended to bring us as close as possible to a 'live' performance, it's then painful to put in a poor quality recording where the sound reproduction is so poor it detracts from the performance.


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Not each label early recordings are to be avoided, for example, early stereo Decca (55-60) is in exquisite sound, I wish EMI could have achieved the same results in 60-70s... But to discover wonders of operatic singing you have to dive deep in the muck of these.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Handelian said:


> You are, I assume, a leader in the field of voice coaching? More so than Fleming? Just that I believe when someone has risen to the top of the international ladder it might be a good idea not to develop an attitude that we know better than they do. There is a reason why they are at the top!
> 
> The problem to me is when person(s) always without fail has negative things to say about singers of the modern era. It seems they have a set formula which they trot out and squeeze everyone into. I just feel sorry that some people can't seem to enjoy any of today's singers which I think is their loss.


Are you still asking people about their credentials.... Wow I thought we were now passed that. How unfortunate. You would rather ask such an irrelevant question than prove your point and present us with exemples of great modern singing. Well then, let me do it for you.

Here are two singers which I believe are on the right path. First off is Saioa Hernandez singing _Suicidio_ from _La Gioconda_:






Now she is not perfect and falls slightly short of really being able to compare with other exponents of the role like Callas or Milanov. I do not think that her registers are as well-coordinated as they should be and she sounds tense on the high notes. But listen to her chest voice. This is what opera is about. Strong, dramatic and exciting declamatory power (now there should also be moments of beautiful lyricism with the usage of mezza voce, but we are not necessarily looking for such moments in an aria like Suicidio).

Secondly, here's Ernesto Petti singing an aria from Nabucco:






Then again not perfect. The voice sounds heavy and inflexible, but at leat the registers seem to be well-coordinated (I might be wrong though...). But FINALLY a baritone who does not sound woofy and out of his fach. The voice is resonant, full of squillo and, dare I say, beautiful.

There you go.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Aerobat said:


> In that case, my challenge to all current vocal coaches is to do this in a positive way, not just by highlighting the negative elements. I coach other areas, and my approach is always to highlight each individuals strengths, whilst helping the to develop the areas where they have weaknesses. Unfortunately, what I see on here is simply a high degree of attack on the weaknesses, which I find quite discouraging for the development of future artists - the usual approach is simply to point out that 'x' from the past was so much better. One area where I agree wholeheartedly is the lack of development of chest voice in a lot of (not all) modern singers. However, rather than simply criticise, it's necessary to work with coaches and teachers to develop this area! I don't see why this isn't being done, and from comments made earlier it would seem that we have so folks on here who are active in the area of voice tuition and coaching.
> 
> I'd add that I'm not a vocalist or vocal coach - this last person who tried to teach me to sing said something along the lines of "You have a voice that could curdle milk!". For this reason I've stuck with being an instrumentalist, but have a great love of vocal music of all types. When I'm coaching people, regardless of subject, motivating people to develop in a positive way is my most important area of focus.


You are absolutely right that we should aim towards more positivity. I am sometimes guilty of being too negative, even though I wouldn't consider pointing ou defects and deficiencies to always be a sign of negativity. Matter of perception I guess.

To be honest, I think that members like me who believe there has been a decline in operatic singing put a lot of emphasis on weaknesses because we are often discussing with people (one to be more precise) who would rather resort to not-so-witty put-downs rather than present us counter-arguments. There is noting more insulting than argumenting for something only to receive as an answer a pile of sophisms. And often these people (still looking at the same person) end up saying there are no problems. Well I am sorry but there are. And accepting such a fact would enable us to move on to the more positive elements, like possible solutions or technical tips.

Another reason why we put so much emphasis on weaknesses is that more and more professional singers have decided, it seems, to not address them at all, putting them instead under the cover of style or interpretation. I am sorry but wobbling or being out of pitch is not a question of style, but rather of technique. Accepting that a singer like Christine Goerke can gives us performances like this











without being sent back the the training studio is rather saddening. A tongue should not move like this. It is an easy sign of undesirable tension. As anyone at the Met picked it up? The answer is a resounding no. Corelli, who had a caprino in his early career, realized he had a problem, went back to training and solved it. He was surrounded by singers who were technically proficient, which forced him to take action. Unfortunately, the standards have dropped so low that we applaud such performances from Madam Goerke and believe them to be examples of great art.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Handelian said:


> You are, I assume, a leader in the field of voice coaching? More so than Fleming? Just that I believe when someone has risen to the top of the international ladder it might be a good idea not to develop an attitude that we know better than they do. There is a reason why they are at the top!
> 
> The problem to me is when person(s) always without fail has negative things to say about singers of the modern era. It seems they have a set formula which they trot out and squeeze everyone into. I just feel sorry that some people can't seem to enjoy any of today's singers which I think is their loss.


When you were wearing your DavidA hat, you carried on like this incessantly, arrogantly and pointlessly challenging other members' qualifications and right to criticize singers and voice teachers. It really was excruciating. Now, wearing your Baroque wig, you're at it again. Please be advised that criticizing singers and voice teachers is something we do here. We enjoy it and we don't need your permission to do it. Kindly stop making a pest of yourself, get a good book on etiquette, and find the chapter on proper conversational behavior. Thank you.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Parsifal98 said:


> You are absolutely right that we should aim towards more positivity. I am sometimes guilty of being too negative, even though I wouldn't consider pointing ou defects and deficiencies to always be a sign of negativity. Matter of perception I guess.
> 
> To be honest, I think that members like me who believe there has been a decline in operatic singing put a lot of emphasis on weaknesses because we are often discussing with people (one to be more precise) who would rather resort to not-so-witty put-downs rather than present us counter-arguments. There is noting more insulting than argumenting for something only to receive as an answer a pile of sophisms. And often these people (still looking at the same person) end up saying there are no problems. Well I am sorry but there are. And accepting such a fact would enable us to move on to the more positive elements, like possible solutions or technical tips.
> 
> ...


I wonder how many people applaud, not because they think Goerke is great, but because they feel fortunate to have anyone at all performing this music. I mean, if your alternative is Nina Stemme, what are you going to do? Sit on your couch, playing your Nilsson CDs and crying into your potato chips?


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

There are some interesting points raised here. I'm very much an amateur musician, but my professional focus is perhaps relevant.

My perception today (especially with the Met) is that it's the best *marketed* singers who're in demand, not necessarily the technically greatest that we have. This has, to a degree, always been the case though. It's just more noticeable today. In every area now it's the item with the most effective marketing that sells (Brexit, Trump, VHS instead of Betamax, the success of Marc Benioff's "SalesForce" organization) etc, rather than the best item. Nowhere in Opera is this better illustrated than the success of Netrebko, especially in recent years. Her voice is far from perfect, although not un-attractive, and yet she's one of the biggest crowd-pullers out there.

As I've mentioned previously, I found Patricia Petibon to be a far more compelling performer than Netrebko (I've seen both more than once, in different venues), yet Petibon lacks the marketing engine of Netrebko and consequently doesn't achieve the 'success'. I've also found Garifullina to be a very compelling performer, yet she's not in as much demand (yet). Maybe she also needs better marketing?

Maybe we need to convert our venues and record companies to marketing (and developing) talent rather than looks / name? And at the same time up the standards of vocal coaching. Or do I ask too much??


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Aerobat said:


> There are some interesting points raised here. I'm very much an amateur musician, but my professional focus is perhaps relevant.
> 
> My perception today (especially with the Met) is that it's the best *marketed* singers who're in demand, not necessarily the technically greatest that we have. This has, to a degree, always been the case though. It's just more noticeable today. In every area now it's the item with the most effective marketing that sells (Brexit, Trump, VHS instead of Betamax, the success of Marc Benioff's "SalesForce" organization) etc, rather than the best item. Nowhere in Opera is this better illustrated than the success of Netrebko, especially in recent years. Her voice is far from perfect, although not un-attractive, and yet she's one of the biggest crowd-pullers out there.
> 
> ...


You are missing one thing here. I agree about the marketing but hasn't that has always been so to a certain extent? But we're also talking about stage presence which has become a vital part of operatic life in the modern era. A singer's appearance and sheer stage instincts are also important, something that Netrebko has, and of course Callas had in spades before her. (I know btw it is almost heresy to some to mention that a modern singer is any good) But people came to hear Callas not just for the voice but for the sheer dramatic instinct she brought to the part. Now with HD this is even more important. Callas set a trend in this. Successful singers of the future will be those who can follow in her path.I know that's hard for die-hards to swallow but it happens to be true. Just read Marilyn Horne.
It's always amusing to hear people criticising singers which the public flock to see. Is there a reason for it or are the opera going public just ignorant and need to come to TC and hear some real wisdom from the experts? 
I can't understand why you compare Petibon with Nebs btw as they seem to inhabit rather different repertoire. I just hope if she sings Gilda again she will not be in such an awful production.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Woodduck said:


> I wonder how many people applaud, not because they think Goerke is great, but because they feel fortunate to have anyone at all performing this music. I mean, if your alternative is Nina Stemme, what are you going to do? Sit on your couch, playing your Nilsson CDs and crying into your potato chips?


Quite possible! I have simplified things for the sake of the argument, but there are certainly more than one reason why people applaud Goerke and co.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Handelian said:


> It's always amusing to hear people criticising singers which the public flock to see. Is there a reason for it or are the opera going public just ignorant and need to come to TC and hear some real wisdom from the experts?


I don't understand this. If a singer has many fans their singing can't be criticized?

Yes, I do think the opera going public is ignorant to an extent. The old traditions are lost and TC is one of the best places to learn about them. TC actually is full of real wisdom from experts and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about opera.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Handelian said:


> You are, I assume, a leader in the field of voice coaching? More so than Fleming? Just that I believe when someone has risen to the top of the international ladder it might be a good idea not to develop an attitude that we know better than they do. There is a reason why they are at the top!
> 
> The problem to me is when person(s) always without fail has negative things to say about singers of the modern era. It seems they have a set formula which they trot out and squeeze everyone into. I just feel sorry that some people can't seem to enjoy any of today's singers which I think is their loss.


Is Fleming at the top of the field when it comes to vocal *coaching*? As already stated, she rose to the top as a _singer_, not as a coach or technician (which is a different thing).

In any case, I plan on opening a singing school, let's see where we all are in 50 years!

N.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> I don't understand this. If a singer has many fans their singing can't be criticized?
> 
> Yes, I do think the opera going public is ignorant to an extent. The old traditions are lost and TC is one of the best places to learn about them. TC actually is full of real wisdom from experts and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about opera.


I notice that the fact that _your_ credentials are never mentioned by Handelian. Which one of you is better qualified to know about this, I wonder!

N.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

The Conte said:


> I notice that the fact that _your_ credentials are never mentioned by Handelian. Which one of you is better qualified to know about this, I wonder!
> 
> N.


I've noticed this too. What's wild is I have some of the credentials he's looking for and I learned more about opera here than anywhere else!


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Bonetan said:


> I don't understand this.* If a singer has many fans their singing can't be criticized*?
> 
> Yes, I do think the opera-going public is ignorant to an extent. The old traditions are lost and TC is one of the best places to learn about them. TC actually is full of real wisdom from experts and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about opera.


Of course not! We can't criticize Florence Foster Jenkins either, because the audiences flocked to see her.


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> I don't understand this. If a singer has many fans their singing can't be criticized?
> 
> Yes, I do think the opera going public is ignorant to an extent. The old traditions are lost and TC is one of the best places to learn about them. TC actually is full of real wisdom from experts and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about opera.


I couldn't agree more! I've learned so much from so many TC members. A great pleasure to be a part of this forum!


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> Is Fleming at the top of the field when it comes to vocal *coaching*? As already stated, she rose to the top as a _singer_, not as a coach or technician (which is a different thing).
> 
> In any case, *I plan on opening a singing school*, let's see where we all are in 50 years!
> 
> N.


You will no doubt be flooded with eager students, hanging on your every words!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> I wonder how many people applaud, not because they think Goerke is great, but because they feel fortunate to have anyone at all performing this music. I mean, if your alternative is Nina Stemme, what are you going to do? Sit on your couch, playing your Nilsson CDs and crying into your potato chips?


Most performances I've seen of Traviata have left me wishing I'd stayed at home with my Callas CDs and cried into my chocolate truffles.

N.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> I don't understand this. If a singer has many fans their singing can't be criticized?
> 
> Yes, I do think the opera going public is ignorant to an extent. The old traditions are lost and TC is one of the best places to learn about them. TC actually is full of real wisdom from experts and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about opera.


I didn't say she couldn't be criticised. I merely suggested she might be doing something right. And when a singer has the reviews that Fleming (even though TC is turning its nose up) has she might be doing something very right!


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> I've noticed this too. What's wild is I have some of the credentials he's looking for and I learned more about opera here than anywhere else!


That's great! But who was teaching you before?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

silentio said:


> Of course not! We can't criticize Florence Foster Jenkins either, because the audiences flocked to see her.


And people flocked to see the Marx Brothers in a Night at the Opera too!


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> I notice that the fact that _your_ credentials are never mentioned by Handelian. Which one of you is better qualified to know about this, I wonder!
> 
> N.


I wasn't mentioning my qualifications. Just Flemings'. You can top that?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Handelian said:


> I didn't say she couldn't be criticised. I merely suggested she might be doing something right.


No, that is not what you "merely suggested." Here is what you've "suggested":

_"So you honestly believe you know more about opera singing than Ms Fleming?"

"Maybe she could have you there to help her."

"It always seems rather presumptuous when you have had people who have been internationally acclaimed for us to try and pull them apart."

"You are, I assume, a leader in the field of voice coaching?"

"When someone has risen to the top of the international ladder it might be a good idea not to develop an attitude that we know better than they do."

"It's always amusing to hear people criticising singers which the public flock to see. Is there a reason for it or are the opera going public just ignorant and need to come to TC and hear some real wisdom from the experts?"

"You will no doubt be flooded with eager students, hanging on your every words!"
_

All of these "suggestions" more than "suggest" that no one here is qualified or within their rights to criticize Fleming's coaching methods, and that you are qualified and within your rights to make this claim.



> Where did I ever say I was qualified? Are we now going to ask everyone for a written display of their credentials and qualifications?


And what is it you think YOU'VE been doing, pal?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Handelian said:


> That's great! But who was teaching you before?


A great woman who's still my teacher to this day! But while she's a great teacher who's sung at big houses, she could never give me the education I've received here. The wealth of knowledge here is really special. I don't know where else a person can find so many knowledgeable opera fans discussing opera on a daily basis


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Bonetan said:


> A great woman who's still my teacher to this day! But while she's a great teacher who's sung at big houses, she could never give me the education I've received here. The wealth of knowledge here is really special. I don't know where else a person can find so many knowledgeable opera fans discussing opera on a daily basis


The thing that strikes me is that I'm very opinionated about technique and there are a range of ideas about how to get a good technique. Do this, do that, do my special pencil technique etc. etc. In all the other groups about opera singing there is wide disagreement about how great singing is achieved and I'm always careful about what I say. The really valuable thing about this group is not just the knowledge about the art form as performed by living artists and those in recordings going back 120 years, or the wealth of insight on the composers works themselves, but that those who understand true bel canto technique all agree more or less on how to achieve great singing from a technical point of view. That's why when Vivalagentenova (and others) point out something in a Fleming video (for example), I look into it. I've never been disappointed so far. The agreement here on singing technique is unique in my opinion.

N.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Lehmann all the way with a distinctive and expressive voice not matched by Fleming who sounds rather weak in the video provided.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> When you were wearing your *DavidA hat*,
> Now, wearing your *Baroque wig*, you're at it again.


Watch out, Deli might be hiding something far more _sinister_ under those.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

The Conte said:


> The thing that strikes me is that I'm very opinionated about technique and there are a range of ideas about how to get a good technique. Do this, do that, do my special pencil technique etc. etc. In all the other groups about opera singing there is wide disagreement about how great singing is achieved and I'm always careful about what I say. The really valuable thing about this group is not just the knowledge about the art form as performed by living artists and those in recordings going back 120 years, or the wealth of insight on the composers works themselves, but that those who understand true bel canto technique all agree more or less on how to achieve great singing from a technical point of view. That's why when Vivalagentenova (and others) point out something in a Fleming video (for example), I look into it. I've never been disappointed so far. The agreement here on singing technique is unique in my opinion.
> 
> N.


So I'm assuming you use these things for practical knowledge about your own technique. The voice coaches I have talked to and seen in action coaching (not with me- I am a lost cause - but with singers I know) say there are of course different ways of approaching things but certain people on here insist there is only one. So what advantage does this technique bring you and others like Vivalagentenova when you perform over people like Fleming? What advantage does (eg) this give you in performing early music?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Duplicate post - deleted


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> A great woman who's still my teacher to this day! But while she's a great teacher who's sung at big houses, she could never give me the education I've received here. The wealth of knowledge here is really special. I don't know where else a person can find so many knowledgeable opera fans discussing opera on a daily basis


Yes I find it fun although in my own profession I seek advice off professionals I actually know. I'm assuming your teacher uses the same techniques that are propagated here ?


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## Aerobat (Dec 31, 2018)

Handelian said:


> I can't understand why you compare Petibon with Nebs btw as they seem to inhabit rather different repertoire. I just hope if she sings Gilda again she will not be in such an awful production.


It's a comparison of marketing rather than repertoire to illustrate the point. Petibon is at least as good a performer, if not better, than Netrebko (ignoring repertoire and looking purely at performance). But her marketing / ability to sell herself hasn't delivered hence she has achieved the commercial success of Netrebko despite being, in my opinion, a more worthy performer.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Aerobat said:


> It's a comparison of marketing rather than repertoire to illustrate the point. Petibon is at least as good a performer, if not better, than Netrebko (ignoring repertoire and looking purely at performance). But her marketing / ability to sell herself hasn't delivered hence she has achieved the commercial success of Netrebko despite being, in my opinion, a more worthy performer.


So how would you illustrate the different marketing to make your point?


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

From "the Lotte Lehman League" -

Misconceptions about Lotte Lehmann

"During the Lehmann Centennial, a panel of people with Lehmann credentials spoke. Her pianist, Gwendolyn Koldofsky, was asked to comment on Lehmann's apparent lack of breath control. She stated categorically and without apology that she felt that Lehmann just gave too much at the beginning of a phrase and was constantly running out.

For Lehmann, running short of breath came across as a great generosity of spirit, her voice flowing out without caring what would happen when her breath ran out. She often said that she made a virtue out of this "necessity" by infusing the quick intake of breath (in her own lifetime this became known as the "Lehmann catch breath") with the intent of the poem, whether to show tragedy, wonder, love, or exaltation.

Critics complained that she broke phrases to catch a breath. Though this was true of her last years, her breath control was of average ability until she reached her mid-50s. In the 1941 recording of Beethoven's "In questa tomba oscura," she demonstrates excellent control of its demanding long phrases. In questa tomba A music historian wrote that lamenting Lehmann's shortness of breath is like criticizing the Venus de Milo for not having arms.

As with most sopranos she began to lose her top notes in middle-age, but it wasn't noticeable because she cleverly chose her Lieder repertoire to avoid high notes and had already relinquished most of her opera roles that demanded the extreme high range.

For a final comment on the subject of her vocal limitations, I'll quote Bruce Burroughs, then editor of the Opera Quarterly from the Summer 1991 issue: "Lotte Lehmann-with a voice of utterly compelling emotive qualities before which a variety of technical shortcomings paled into insignificance…"

It's a lengthy but interesting article - well worth a read.

- Sunny


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## Parsifal98 (Apr 29, 2020)

Handelian said:


> So I'm assuming you use these things for practical knowledge about your own technique. The voice coaches I have talked to and seen in action coaching (not with me- I am a lost cause - but with singers I know) say there are of course different ways of approaching things but certain people on here insist there is only one. So what advantage does this technique bring you and others like Vivalagentenova when you perform over people like Fleming? What advantage does (eg) this give you in performing early music?


All voices technically work the same way. It is basically air flowing through the vocal folds and making them vibrate. It is the perception of one's voice which differs from one person to the next. For example, we sometimes hear the terms _head resonance_ and _chest resonance_ and then think the voice resonates in the head or the chest, which is impossible. The vibrations one may feel in such places are only sympathetic, for the voice vibrates in the pharyngeal space. But these perceptions are important when building one's voice, and people do not all perceive their voice in the same way. This is why we consider that there are many ways of approaching things, but all teaching should aim towards the same result: BEL CANTO. We have many aural and written examples on how to achieve that. The operatic voice is not some sort of postmodern-social-construct-thingy. There should be one technical approach, and many ways of perceiving, referring to or illustrating it.

If you are interested, you should definitely listen to some historical recordings  and also read books on the matter, whether from Manuel Garcia or, closer to us, Cornelius Reid. The terminology may differ, but the ideas are the same.


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Handelian said:


> Yes I find it fun although in my own profession I seek advice off professionals I actually know. I'm assuming your teacher uses the same techniques that are propagated here ?


I would say that my teacher and the posters here are in agreement on the characteristics of a great technique and also of an imperfect technique.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

hammeredklavier said:


> Watch out, Deli might be hiding something far more _sinister_ under those.


You may miss millionrainbows so much that you feel the need to inject mentions of him into multiple discussions here, but consider the likelihood that your infatuation is not widely shared on the opera forum. Could you do us a favor and keep your personal romances private?


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> I would say that my teacher and the posters here are in agreement on the characteristics of a great technique and also of an imperfect technique.


You are one of the privileged few then who knows how to sing in this day and age?


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

Handelian said:


> You are one of the privileged few then who knows how to sing in this day and age?


In a way, yes. I would say that I'm one of the privileged few who knows the way I need to sing if I want to get the most out of my instrument.


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## Handelian (Nov 18, 2020)

Bonetan said:


> In a way, yes. I would say that I'm one of the privileged few who knows the way I need to sing if I want to get the most out of my instrument.


Great!we will be seeing you at the major opera houses no doubt? But how do you manage to sing with so many people who can't sing properly?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Always remember, always remember:


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

This excellent comment by chu42 in the thread <overrated pianists> just reminded me of Handelian:



chu42 said:


> Ah yes, one of the most widespread yet half-witted lines of reasoning. The idea that you have to be as good as someone in order to criticize them.
> 
> It's an extension of the ad hominem fallacy-attacking someone's personal characteristics rather than attacking the argument they're making. You're magically waving away any potential argument by saying "well you're not as good as them, so there."
> 
> ...


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## Bonetan (Dec 22, 2016)

hammeredklavier said:


> This excellent comment by chu42 in the thread <overrated pianists> just reminded me of Handelian:


Hahaha totally!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I can say, not boastfully but gratefully, that nothing reminds me of Handelian except people who are reminded of Handelian and insist on bringing him up. I strongly recommend doing neither of those things.


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