# Verdi's concern about Puccini



## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

In reading Charles Osborne's biography _Verdi: A Life in the Theatre _(Fromm International, 1989), Verdi's concern that Puccini's first opera (_Le Villi_) was taking the direction of "symphonic opera" struck me. I'd always thought that arias and lyricism are at the heart of Puccini's style, not symphonic style.

Yet upon reflection, the most informed musicians I know have always praised Puccini's orchestration highly. Might we say, as a very rough generalization, that Verdi excels with drama and action in music while Puccini achieves beautiful orchestral and vocal sound thus evokes listeners' emotional responses? Also that Verdi has in mind here an underlying concern about the influence of Wagnerian opera in Italy?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I think that's why I like Puccini far more than Verdi - the use of the orchestra. Puccini's writing is gloriously inventive, lush, ravishing - he was a great orchestrator. Verdi's use of the orchestra is quite simple by comparison - oom pah pah oom pah pah - and is much easier to play, for sure. Not that Verdi can't whip up plenty of orchestra fury and passion. When Verdi began his career, opera orchestras often were of low quality and he had to write in a way that provincial orchestras could pull it off. By the time Puccini came around, orchestral quality had improved - at least in larger cities - and he could write more complex, difficult and demanding music. Plus, the level of orchestral writing at that time was stupendous with the likes of Rimsky-Korsakov, Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Strauss, Zemlinsky and others. I regularly play for a conductor who spent many years working in Italy, and he thinks the quality (and work ethic) of orchestras outside of the major cities are still pretty bad. And nobody seems to care. I've played operas by both composers in a week long opera festival: La Traviata and La Boheme. The former was a welcome relief from the latter - no stress, fairly easy to play, not taxing at all. The latter was a minefield of trouble and you couldn't ever let your guard down.

Both are great composers, and their success has dominated opera houses for too long, though. Add in Wagner. Opera houses are more bound to a core repertoire than symphony concerts.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Roger Knox said:


> In reading Charles Osborne's biography _Verdi: A Life in the Theatre _(Fromm International, 1989), Verdi's concern that Puccini's first opera (_Le Villi_) was taking the direction of "symphonic opera" struck me. I'd always thought that arias and lyricism are at the heart of Puccini's style, not symphonic style.
> 
> Yet upon reflection, the most informed musicians I know have always praised Puccini's orchestration highly. Might we say, as a very rough generalization, that Verdi excels with drama and action in music while Puccini achieves beautiful orchestral and vocal sound thus evokes listeners' emotional responses? Also that Verdi has in mind here an underlying concern about the influence of Wagnerian opera in Italy?


The difference between Italian and German musical style was very much on Verdi's mind, particularly as he himself had to decide how to respond to the influence of Wagner on the way opera was written. The shift in emphasis away from vocal melody and distinct numbers to a continuous,"symphonic" orchestral texture influenced Verdi's work, but charges of "Wagnerism," deserved or not, annoyed him. His last three operas especially - _Aida, Otello_ and _Falstaff_ - show how effectively he was able to integrate the traditional Italian focus on the voice with an increasingly rich and continuous orchestral fabric, making some use of recurring motifs, though never adopting the complex and systematic leitmotif technique by which Wagner enabled the orchestra to assume an independent narrative function.

Puccini was much more welcoming of Wagner's influence than was Verdi - he kept scores of _Tristan_ and _Parsifal_ on his piano for inspiration - and it shows in his harmonic and orchestral richness, as well as a greater reliance on the recurrence and transformation of motifs associated with characters and situations.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Interesting. I've heard a conductor friend praise Verdi as an orchestrator. I suspect he wasn't necessarily talking about the composer's work overall, but rather about certain key moments of especial depth or poignancy, and Verdi's illuminating them through subtle, arresting instrumentation, particularly in the woodwinds.

Another perspective, anyway.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Yes I like Woodduck's post. I've often thought that there's a "modern" side to Puccini which isn't there in Verdi apart from Falstaff possibly. 

I'm thinking particularly of Fanculla del West, but also parts of Turandot, maybe some of Il trittico, I can't remember. I haven't heard La rondine, I don't know what it's like.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Yes I like Woodduck's post. I've often thought that there's a "modern" side to Puccini which isn't there in Verdi apart from Falstaff possibly.
> 
> I'm thinking particularly of Fanculla del West, but also parts of Turandot, maybe some of Il trittico, I can't remember. I haven't heard La rondine, I don't know what it's like.


La rondine is a Leharian operetta, a dainty and not particularly substantial morsel. I do think Fanciulla and Turandot are more modern and symphonic in the way that WD is describing, which is largely why those are my favorite Puccini works; I don't hear much of that in any of the Trittico group or La rondine.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

amfortas said:


> Interesting. I've heard a conductor friend praise Verdi as an orchestrator. I suspect he wasn't necessarily talking about the composer's work overall, but rather about certain key moments of especial depth or poignancy, and Verdi's illuminating them through subtle, arresting instrumentation, particularly in the woodwinds.
> 
> Another perspective, anyway.


He's probably talking about the late operas. _Falstaff_ in particular is marvelously refined and inventive in its orchestration. Early Verdi could be rather noisy.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

There is another interesting aspect of this comparison: Verdi's music lends itself to orchestral excerpts, those "bleeding chunks", far better than Puccini. Many of Verdi's overtures are concert staples. There are no Puccini opera overtures. Things like the Grand March from Aida, ballet music from Don Carlo, Macbeth, il Trovatore and others are well known. Puccini excerpts are usually (always?) arias and set pieces. The only Puccini orchestral excerpt that ever shows up with any regularity I can remember is from Gianni Schicci - O mio Bambino Caro.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> The only Puccini orchestral excerpt that ever shows up with any regularity I can remember is from Gianni Schicci - O mio Bambino Caro.


"O mio babbino caro" is an aria, a favorite of sopranos.






The only purely orchestral excerpt from a Puccini opera that stands on its own is the "Intermezzo" from Act 3 of _Manon Lescaut:_


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> He's probably talking about the late operas. _Falstaff_ in particular is marvelously refined and inventive in its orchestration. Early Verdi could be rather noisy.


Yes. I also think of Desdemona's Willow Song and the music leading up to it in the final act of _Otello_. Very spare but effective orchestration.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

Wonderful orchestration in Aida, too, particularly the use of the woodwinds in Acts 3 and 4. Verdi was definitely a master, it just was a different emphasis than the dreaded Wagnerians.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> Wonderful orchestration in Aida, too, particularly the use of the woodwinds in Acts 3 and 4. Verdi was definitely a master, it just was a different emphasis than the dreaded Wagnerians.


I think we might note the final scene of Aida with its miraculous effects. Listen to Decca's recording made by Culshaw with Karajan for example


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> He's probably talking about the late operas. _Falstaff_ in particular is marvelously refined and inventive in its orchestration. Early Verdi could be rather noisy.


But there are wonders even in the early operas, *Macbeth* in particular. Think of the sparse but highly evocative orchestration for Lady M's Sleepwalking Scene, which dates back to the original opera, not the later revision.

That said Verdi's use of the orchestra continually improved and there are marvellous stretches in the middle period. I'm thinking of that gorgeous evocation of the sea in the introduction to Amelia's _Come in quest'ora bruna_ from *Simon Boccanegra* and the generally dark orchestration throughout *Don Carlo*. I love the use of the low strings in Act IV in particular from Philip's _Ella giammai m'amo_ and into the duet for the two basses. The orchestration here is a master stroke.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Roger Knox said:


> Verdi excels with drama and action in music while Puccini achieves beautiful orchestral and vocal sound


Verdi main operas repertoire owes to its music no less than Puccini's owes to its drama.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In his last two operas , Otello and Falstaff, Verdi's orchestration had become extremely sophisticated, inventive and colorful and far more complex than his early operas , because he had matured so much as a composer in his later years .
You can't accuse him of using oom- pa-pa orchestration any more ! And some of his orchestral writing in these two operas, particularly for horn , are extremely difficult and require virtuoso technique . 
His horn parts in these two operas are standard in horn auditions at the Met and other leading opera companies . I know as a former horn player . 
For example, in the second act of Otello where Otello is raging and suspects Iago of possibly misleading him, the horn writing requires the ability to play as rapidly as woodwind and string instruments . The horn is not really suited to playing parts which require agility of execution, and it's extremely difficult for horn players to master these .


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Given the above posts it seems my generalization in the OP was too broadly conceived. So I am withdrawing it.

For anyone who finds Verdi hard to appreciate, my experience has been that it's best to see has operas live, for the dramatic aspect (e.g. _Rigoletto_, _La Traviata_, _Otello_). I've found Puccini very approachable on recordings as well as in live peformances.


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