# Long live tonality



## Aramis

OOOOO

I've spent last days in marasm totally discouraged from writing my new composition as I couldn't find proper harmony and following musicial thoughts sounded out of place in context of previous ones. Today I was sitting at keyboard trying to come out with something better, suddenly I took a look at circle of fifths and said E-MOLL! And it all started, I got new things, I've transposed previous ones into e minor and it all shouds like it should, all fits, themes flow naturally, nothing seems out of place. So far I was cheating on myself and your wife claiming that I write without tonal system but in fact it was just rejecting a way of working, the effect - when it was good - was just like it would be if written with usage of tonality from the beginning. I refused to put key marks on the beginning of score (no accidentals, like in C major) and to work with mode in mind but I was always reaching for the effects that tonality (extended, but sill) offers. Oooo, no more cheating, I shall be tonal, I shall be released, my works shall be tonal, briefs and a leather belt, yes indeed, don't be afraid of it.

So I have builded a statue for tonality for the sake of our and forthcoming generations, they may see it's great and splendid:



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## MJTTOMB

That statue looks vaguely like a Van Gogh to me. Have you considered taking up painting as well?


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## Aramis

Yes, the model for the statue was based on my creation, a idea of creatures called "dziarby", I have invited them when I was about 11 years old and in later years made a whole fascicle of explainations who they are and how they live, I hope that one day I will paint number of oil-on-canvas paintings showing dziarbas in various positions and scenes from their lifes and from their world and these paintings will be presented in world famous galleries, including Louvre, next to works of great Delacroix.


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## samurai

Aramis said:


> Yes, the model for the statue was based on my creation, a idea of creatures called "dziarby", I have invited them when I was about 11 years old and in later years made a whole fascicle of explainations who they are and how they live, I hope that one day I will paint number of oil-on-canvas paintings showing dziarbas in various positions and scenes from their lifes and from their world and these paintings will be presented in world famous galleries, including Louvre, next to works of great Delacroix.


Hi, Aramis. I was just wondering what--if anything--the word* dziarby* means in Polish {if that's the correct language?}.


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## Couchie

Tonality is DEAD!


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## Aramis

that's terrible, Arnold, get off the platform



samurai said:


> Hi, Aramis. I was just wondering what--if anything--the word* dziarby* means in Polish {if that's the correct language?}.


How could it mean anything, shouldn't be name of new beings a totally new word?


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## paulc

Tonality? That's SOOO passe! 

I like atonal music, but the music I listen to regularly is tonal, despite being very chromatic. Yes, I'm unimaginative!


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## samurai

Aramis said:


> that's terrible, Arnold, get off the platform
> 
> How could it mean anything, shouldn't be name of new beings a totally new word?


Ok, then, if you say so, that's fine with me. :cheers:


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## Ukko

The correct response is "Well alright then."


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## Sid James

Aramis, your artwork looks a bit like something done by Max Ernst, this kind of thing comes to mind -










Forget music, maybe you should take up painting!?  ...


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## Tomposer

Tonality or not, my view is that you set up a sort of language for any given piece. Actually Schoenberg said something like that.

What happens these days is that people admire the harmonically challenging music of the first part of the 20th Century, yet they live in a tonal world (which it is right now). So sometimes they accidentally depart too far from the initial "language" that they themselves have stipulated for a piece; either because they're writing something harmonically edgy but yearn to connect with a "contemporary" (ie tonal) sound, or visa versa.

I think a really interesting challenge for present day composers is to find the particular version of tonality they prefer - something which enables them to express their own voice. We can develop as a composer and write very good music, yet, it somehow doesn't feel like our own. I think this is where examining our own harmonic techniques can help.

It's interesting (and something which didn't occur much to 20th century composers) that tonality is immensly rich; well beyond the "functional" tonality of the Western tradition. There's almost _too _much of it to explore.


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## Klavierspieler

Huzzah! Long live tonality!


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## Guest

Music should not give offence to the Ear 'tnerrof' Ecaps siht.


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## Meaghan

Resurrected because PEOPLE SHOULD SEE ARAMIS' AND COUCHIE'S ART, and some people haven't, the poor things.


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## Dodecaplex

^ Thank you for resurrecting this thread.

I am now sufficiently enlightened.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Couchie said:


> Tonality is DEAD!


Thank you. That is correct. Schoenberg killed tonality and we can all thank him for that!


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## Guest

Andante said:


> Music should not give offence to the Ear.


Which Ear is this? Your ear or mine?

Jennifer Higdon's neo-tonal music offends my ears.

Karkowski's live electronic improv does not.

This isn't about "the" Ear, which is an empty set, but about whose ears get to "win," whose ears get to be called "the Ear."

Balls to that, mate.


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## Sid James

^^The late Dame Joan Sutherland's ear is listening to everything played at Sydney Town Hall. Seriously. It is sculpted in exact proportion and hangs on the wall of the concert hall there. She is listening from wherever she is...


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## Guest

some guy said:


> Which Ear is this? Your ear or mine?


You would have to ask WAMY it was his saying


> This isn't about "the" Ear, which is an empty set, but about whose ears get to "win," whose ears get to be called "the Ear."


 Gee that's a tough one to follow did you not understand the gist??


> Balls to that, mate.


Oh my dear sir how subtle...........not your self to day SG??? :cheers:


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## KenOC

some guy said:


> Jennifer Higdon's neo-tonal music offends my ears.


If thine ear offends thee, pull a van Gogh. Or do what I do, don't listen to it!


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## Sid James

What the hell is "neo-tonal" anyway? Is it the latest musicological jargon?

EDIT - looked it up!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neotonality

Problem solved. Egg on my face.


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## Guest

I couldn't find "neo-tonal" in an etymological dictionary, so I don't know when it was first used.

It's pretty common, though. And it refers firstly to people writing in the teens and twenties, like Stravinsky and Bartok and Prokofiev.

And to Bax and Hanson and Shostakovich and Higdon and so forth.


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## Sid James

Well I should have known. Serves me right for being a smart alek ...


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## Kopachris

Sid James said:


> What the hell is "neo-tonal" anyway? Is it the latest musicological jargon?
> 
> EDIT - looked it up!
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neotonality
> 
> Problem solved. Egg on my face.


Ooh... I like that this is a thing. I might start writing like that for a while--sounds easy.


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## Sid James

I am rechristening this thread "Long Live Neo-Tonality." Long live Ades and...dunno...Higdon...whatever.


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## millionrainbows

Tomposer said:


> Tonality or not, my view is that you set up a sort of language for any given piece. Actually Schoenberg said something like that.
> 
> What happens these days is that people admire the harmonically challenging music of the first part of the 20th Century, yet they live in a tonal world (which it is right now). So sometimes they accidentally depart too far from the initial "language" that they themselves have stipulated for a piece; either because they're writing something harmonically edgy but yearn to connect with a "contemporary" (ie tonal) sound, or visa versa.
> 
> I think a really interesting challenge for present day composers is to find the particular version of tonality they prefer - something which enables them to express their own voice. We can develop as a composer and write very good music, yet, it somehow doesn't feel like our own. I think this is where examining our own harmonic techniques can help.
> 
> It's interesting (and something which didn't occur much to 20th century composers) that tonality is immensly rich; well beyond the "functional" tonality of the Western tradition. There's almost _too _much of it to explore.


_WIK says of "neotonality:" The most common means of establishing a tonal centre in neotonality is by "assertion". This may involve repeating a central pitch or emphasizing it in some other way, for example through instrumentation, register, rhythmic elongation, or metric accent. No single method of tonal assertion ever became dominant in the 20th century. Another possibility is to retain some element of common-practice tonality, such as beginning and ending on the same triad, using tonic or dominant pedal points, or through the use of contrapuntal motion around some central chord."

I can agree with this as far as it goes, but I question Bartók's inclusion as a "neotonalist," as this label restricts the interpretation of much of his other non-tonal music. True, he was "neotonal" at certain times.

The problem with restrictive labels like this is that there are always exceptions. What if the music has more than one tonal centre, or changes constantly? The term "neotonal" fails when used to describe "localized tone centers" which are not based on mere "assertion" or repetition, but are based on aspects of symmetry, and may shift and transpose constantly. Also, in Bartók (and much modernism) there are areas of "diminished scale" and "whole tone" harmony, which by their very nature "suspend" tonality, and are often left unresolved. Debussy is a prime example of this.

This brings up another snag: in tonality, the "root-fifth" is used to give chords "harmonic strength and stability." In both the "whole-tone/augmented" and "diminished" scales, there is no fifth; the tritone becomes the "axis of symmetry" (this is drawing us towards serial ideas! *Heresy!*)

Debussy used whole-tone scales all over the place, but not to "establish a tonal center." Quite the contrary, he wanted to "float" and be ambiguous.

Tomposer cannot avoid mentioning "harmonic" qualities of music, citing "harmonically edgy" and "harmonically challenging" music. He states that "tonality is immensely rich" while being "well beyond functional tonality."

Herein lies the crux of the biscuit: Functional (CP) tonality, as well as "neotonal" music, are both subsumed under the larger umbrella of "harmonic" music. The problem I see here, is that "harmonic" music can go much further than either of these cases, and can be "tonally ambiguous" to a much larger degree. In a "totally free" harmonic music, there does not have to be an overriding tonal center; the music can go anywhere it wants to go.

For me, "tonality" and "neo-tonality" are just particular examples of a much larger realm of "harmonic" music. A tonal center is a "limiting factor" in this regard. I don't think Debussy or Ravel worried too much about a tonal center; they just did whatever the heck they wanted to do.

This thread seems to be for the purpose of "getting revenge" on serial music by turning "tonality" into an "ideology."

Actually, for me, the "tonal/atonal" debate is becoming more and more moot.

---------------------------------------

Concerning true serialism (as well as the 12-tone method it came from), it is truly "non-tonal," but *more importantly it is "non-harmonic" by nature.* This is because its pitch-sets (tone rows) are *ordered,* unlike scales. A scale is an "index" of notes, which can be ordered freely; a tone-row is not.

Schoenberg used a "work-around" by stipulating that row-notes could be *repeated,* as long as they stayed in order.
This went a long way towards establishing a sense of "tonality" in the method. Yes, the 12-tone method is basically melodic/contrapuntal by design.

Re: the assertion that Schoenberg "killed" tonality: Schoenberg was always a "thematic" composer, and remained so even into his later period. I think he used his method as a "challenge" to himself. I think he always *thought tonally,* as Allen Shawn also says in his book. If anybody had an "agenda" to kill tonality, it was Boulez.

But I do not see serial ideas as a "replacement" for tonality or harmonic music, but rather as a complement of possibilities. There is more to serial thinking than "ordered pitches." _


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## Mahlerian

Sid James said:


> I am rechristening this thread "Long Live Neo-Tonality." Long live Ades and...dunno...Higdon...whatever.


Ades, maybe, but please, keep Higdon away!


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## BurningDesire

Back from the grave, and it still won't pay child support!


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## Guest

OK, Burning. Now I've spewed coffee all over my monitor.

And my keyboard.

And my work area.

And my walls and ceiling.

And my cat.

(Fortunately, my cat loves coffee.)

And I'm laughing so hard, I'm hiccoughing.

Best post, ever.:tiphat:


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## clavichorder

BurningDesire said:


> Back from the grave, and it still won't pay child support!


I don't get it. Can someone explain? The thread is back from the grave? I don't doubt that this could be a funny post, but I can't figure out the child support thing.


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## PetrB

some guy said:


> OK, Burning. Now I've spewed coffee all over my monitor.
> 
> And my keyboard.
> 
> And my work area.
> 
> And my walls and ceiling.
> 
> And my cat.
> 
> (Fortunately, my cat loves coffee.)
> 
> And I'm laughing so hard, I'm hiccoughing.
> 
> Best post, ever.:tiphat:


SEE? petite academe hair-split definitions are worth something -- a few laughs!


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## PetrB

KenOC said:


> If thine ear offends thee, pull a van Gogh. Or do what I do, don't listen to it!


Whenever I find that annoying buzz is annoying enough, I grab my flyswatter and go on a hunt 

And, re: Higdon and "talk about 'grants funding something I do not want to hear"...
*Well, Harumph!*


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## Guest

clavichorder said:


> I don't get it. Can someone explain? The thread is back from the grave? I don't doubt that this could be a funny post, but I can't figure out the child support thing.


Yeh I must be thick as well what is the meaning???????


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## BurningDesire

TBH, I was just making a reference to Daria X3


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## arpeggio

BurningDesire said:


> Back from the grave, and it still won't pay child support!


I get it.

(Message was to short so I had to add some words.)


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## clavichorder

BurningDesire said:


> TBH, I was just making a reference to Daria X3


I don't know that show, I had to look it up.


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## Guest

Must be an American thing...............?


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## Guest

Discussion of merits of tonality/demerits of Schoenberg=dead and buried.

Still not paying child support=still not worth *****.

Translation: No matter how many times this topic gets reanimated, it's still useless.

Easy.


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## BurningDesire

some guy said:


> Discussion of merits of tonality/demerits of Schoenberg=dead and buried.
> 
> Still not paying child support=still not worth *****.
> 
> Translation: No matter how many times this topic gets reanimated, it's still useless.
> 
> Easy.


Yes! That is totally what I meant.

>_>

<_<


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## clavichorder

This thread is a brilliant satire of our forum based on Aramis and Couchie's posts. I agree this topic is often bothersome, but this thread is a complete classic.


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## oogabooha

some guy said:


> Discussion of merits of tonality/demerits of Schoenberg=dead and buried.
> 
> Still not paying child support=still not worth *****.
> 
> Translation: No matter how many times this topic gets reanimated, it's still useless.
> 
> Easy.


oh my god..


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## millionrainbows

Andante, I stole your rabbit and turned it into an owl.

I think tonality is great for TV themes. "The Rifleman," with that exciting horn fanfare, "The Beverly Hillbillies" with that Earl Scruggs banjo, the Mannix theme, Perry Mason, Star Trek, so many more...this is _MY_ tonality.

(walks off into darkness, whistling "They Can't Take That Away From Me"....)


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Andante, I stole your rabbit and turned it into an owl.


I had noticed but I thought it was a lady rabbit ..... we are a pair of clever devils eh

(goes off whistling Schoenberg)


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## Sid James

Andante said:


> ...
> (goes off whistling Schoenberg)


Are you a milkboy? (or milkman?) I think Arnie said these guys of the proletariat would end up whistling his tunes. Well there aren't milkmen anymore, not around here anyway. I get my milk at a supermarkets. Will checkout 'chicks' like this whistle Moses und ARon?










Or maybe apu from the Simpsons will, while he's serving his customers? (Indian ragas are frighteningly like atonal).


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## Crudblud

Sid James said:


> Well there aren't milkmen anymore, not around here anyway. I get my milk at a supermarkets.


Where you get your milk is irrelevant to the existence of milkmen.


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## Sid James

I'll change the subject, a picture's always good for that. What would this 'merry milkman' whistle? I'm sure it would not be the dance around the golden calf from Moses und Aron. Now that would be killing the cow that laid the golden egg (or milk?)


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## Guest

Sid James said:


> Are you a milkboy? (or milkman?) I think Arnie said these guys of the proletariat would end up whistling his tunes.


It may have been news paper boys but no matter, my whistling is absolutely dreadful so no one would tell the difference


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## BurningDesire

Long live great music, and artistic freedom!


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## Guest

I think we would all agree with that, the problem is that artistic freedom can sometimes stretch the line between art and hoax.


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## KenOC

BurningDesire said:


> Long live great music, and artistic freedom!


Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.


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## BurningDesire

KenOC said:


> Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.


does saying long live something imply a threat?


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## Rapide

KenOC said:


> Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.


...unless some certain eccentric type of folks want to discourage tonality, and wish them luck because tonality has been done to death in the past ...


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## Vaneyes

KenOC said:


> Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.


Or atleast come to grips with what's possible to stage. For example, opera, when Bernd Alois Zimmermann was told his vision of a performance of Die Soldaten in the round couldn't/wouldn't happen. There were also minor changes to the work. None of this betrayed the composer's message.

Of course, outside of Europe in the 1960's, it's unlikely this production would've seen the light of day, no matter any changes.

Long lives to what I think is good atonality and good tonality.


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## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.


Is that why Mozart was dumped into a pauper's grave? Or did he just make some bad stock investments?


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## millionrainbows

BurningDesire said:


> does saying long live something imply a threat?


*Yes! LONG LIVE TONALITY!! CHAAARGE! Bang! Bang! Boom! Crash!*


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## millionrainbows

Originally Posted by KenOC 
Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.



Rapide said:


> ...unless some certain eccentric type of folks want to discourage tonality, and wish them luck because tonality has been done to death in the past ...


_Quite the opposite: The only "volks" I heard of who forced anything was "tonality" by you-know-who, your favorite fascists...or Soviets, or Maoists....or Iranian mullahs...or US government employees who don't like that sort of art, and hide it in their offices._


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## millionrainbows

Sid James said:


> I'll change the subject, a picture's always good for that. What would this 'merry milkman' whistle? I'm sure it would not be the dance around the golden calf from Moses und Aron. Now that would be killing the cow that laid the golden egg (or milk?)


The milkman is whistling a simple diatonic tune in C major, but the dog is barking an F# ostinato. The effect is quite disturbing.


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## KenOC

millionrainbows said:


> The milkman is whistling a simple diatonic tune in C major, but the dog is barking an F# ostinato. The effect is quite disturbing.


The devil you say! :devil:


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## Ramako

millionrainbows said:


> Is that why Mozart was dumped into a pauper's grave? Or did he just make some bad stock investments?


I heard that was because his wife wanted to save money, but I need to check up on the sources for it.


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## KenOC

Ramako said:


> I heard that was because his wife wanted to save money, but I need to check up on the sources for it.


Believe this is the case; in fact she was advised to do it. From Wiki: "Mozart was interred in a common grave, in accordance with contemporary Viennese custom, at the St. Marx Cemetery outside the city on 7 December... Jahn (1856) wrote that Salieri, Süssmayr, van Swieten and two other musicians were present."

"The expression 'common grave' refers to neither a communal grave nor a pauper's grave, but to an individual grave for a member of the common people (i.e. not the aristocracy). Common graves were subject to excavation after ten years; the graves of aristocrats were not."

The reasons for Mozart's financial problems have been much discussed, since he was probably the most popular and in-demand comnposer in Vienna. Certainly he enjoyed the finer things of life and lived well beyond his means. There is also a theory that he had a gambling addiction.


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## Sid James

Andante said:


> It may have been news paper boys but no matter, my whistling is absolutely dreadful so no one would tell the difference


Well wouldn't that sound...atonal?

Since its a paper boy, we now got text for an (atonal?) song.

"Extra, extra, read all about it!" as you see in those old black & white movies.












millionrainbows said:


> The milkman is whistling a simple diatonic tune in C major, but the dog is barking an F# ostinato. The effect is quite disturbing.


Good idea for an atonal chamber opera? Dunno.



millionrainbows said:


> Originally Posted by KenOC
> Is there some threat to artistic freedom? Other than the one that has always been there: a composer's economic well-being is closely connected with his ability and willingness to write what people want to hear.
> 
> _Quite the opposite: The only "volks" I heard of who forced anything was "tonality" by you-know-who, your favorite fascists...or Soviets, or Maoists....or Iranian mullahs...or US government employees who don't like that sort of art, and hide it in their offices._


Well the 'home' of atonality, Vienna, was the most anti-Semitic place in Europe. Still is by some accounts. They welcome you know who with open arms back in '38. So?

...but this is getting too serious for this thread. Gotta lighten up for a change!...the the James Bond theme is mysogynist! (just thought I'd throw that in in a random/Cagean kinda way)...


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