# Was Schubert a Catholic?



## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Well, he _was_ Austrian, like Mozart, and Mozart was a practicing Catholic...was Schubert one too?


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## Art Rock

Just curious, is Wikipedia blocked in Israel? It took 30 seconds to find that he was a baptized catholic.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Art Rock said:


> Just curious, is Wikipedia blocked in Israel? It took 30 seconds to find that he was a baptized catholic.


Baptised, yes, but did he practice the faith?


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## Guest

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Baptised, yes, but did he practice the faith?


If you google "Schubert a Catholic" you'll find several articles on the subject.

A few brief comments from memory:

Schubert came from a very religious family and was brought up strictly in the RC faith. At school he sang in the choir which was attached to the Imperial Court. By the time he was 19, he had already composed four complete settings of the Catholic Mass. Two more were to follow later in his short life, in addition to a German Requiem that was based on poetry rather than the Mass proper.

From my readings of Schubert's adult life and times, I don't think he was a fully diligent, regular church-going member, but probably retained an affection and sense of attachment to the Church with occasional visits. Beethoven was probably in a roughly similar position. Mozart may have been a slightly more a regular church attender. It was Joseph Haydn who was the most religious of all the great composers of that general era.

Schubert certainly wrote a great deal of religious music of various kinds, which suggests that he remained in sympathy with the Church. I believe he also received a few commissions for works from his local church. I addition to the 6 massess, he wrote lots of smaller devotional pieces, e.g. Tantum Ergo, Magnifcat.

One pecularity about his masses is that he left out a key part of the "Credo" which is one of the main parts of a mass, forming the central statement of RC doctrine. This is "_and in one holy catholic and apostolic church_". It indicates that he had a problem with this item for some reason. Its exclusion caused problems with the Church authorities, who understandably became reluctant to use the masses.

When he died, he was given a RC funeral and laid to rest a short distance from Beethoven's grave, as per his last wishes. It was many years later that both were transferred to the cemetery where they now exist, in graves next to each other


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## elgar's ghost

Schubert's father was devout. Schubert himself appeared to be much less so, despite his large output of liturgical music.


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## Clouds Weep Snowflakes

Thanks for the comments, why did he die so young? Was it some sort of illness?


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## Open Book

Is the Pope Catholic?


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## Becca

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Thanks for the comments, why did he die so young? Was it some sort of illness?


Why don't you look it up yourself? All of your questions are easily researched.


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## AeolianStrains

Becca said:


> Why don't you look it up yourself? All of your questions are easily researched.


Par for the course for a user who regularly posts stuff like "what do major and minor stand for" and "is anyone into Wagner's opera?".

Now, I'm not saying everyone should have years of experience listening and talking about Classical music before posting, but this is beyond not looking things up. This is attention-seeking behavior that's rewarded with every reply to them.


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## KenOC

Some people just like to have other people talk to them. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Rogerx

As one other member once ask to OP: you don't go out much do you.


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## KenOC

Rogerx said:


> As one other member once ask to OP: you don't go out much do you.


Actually, I'm one of those who doesn't go out much, because I can't. I'm sure there are others.


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## Rogerx

KenOC said:


> Actually, I'm one of those who doesn't go out much, because I can't. I'm sure there are others.


But you are not _this _ OP.


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## Guest

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Thanks for the comments, why did he die so young? Was it some sort of illness?


Now that question is very easily researched on Google.

I think that in the entire annals of classical music perhaps the most well-known fact is that Beethoven went deaf but still wrote tons of high quality music.

A close second must be that Schubert died age 31 as a result of complications arising from his late-stage syphilis (yes, I know that the precise medical cause is uncertain).

If it's not that then it must be that Mozart also died young and before finishing his _Requiem_.

Or possibly that Tchaikovsky was homosexual (you've raised a thread on the topic).

Yet another is that Brahms was bonkers about Clara Schumann.

I 'm surprised there hasn't been a T-C poll on the most well-known "facts" about classical music, such as those above. It would be amusing to see where Wagner's views on.. er.. um..you know rank in the top 100. We could have a long discussion about that one.


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## KenOC

Partita said:


> ...I think that in the entire annals of classical music perhaps the most well-known fact is that Beethoven went deaf but still wrote tons of high quality music.


Fact schmact! Recent musicological research has revealed that Beethoven faked his deafness and paid Schindler to write most of his most famous works. :angel:


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## hammeredklavier

Partita said:


> Mozart may have been a slightly more a regular church attender.


From his letters, Mozart seems like a very "churchy" person to me.

On 25 October 1777, he wrote to his father:

_"Papa must not worry, for God is ever before my eyes. I realize His omnipotence and I fear His anger; but I also recognize His love, His compassion, and His tenderness towards His creatures. He will never forsake His own. If it is according to His will, so let it be according to mine. Thus all will be well and I must needs be happy and contented."_

On January 4, 1783, he wrote to his father about his Mass in C minor K427:

_"About my moral commitment, yes, that's absolutely right; - it flowed out of my pen not unintentionally - I truly made that promise in my heart and really hope to keep it. - When I made it, my wife was still single - but the promise was easy to make because I was determined to marry her as soon as she recovered her health. - Time and circumstances have delayed our trip, as you yourself know; - but as proof that I really made that promise I have the score of half a mass lying here in hopes of getting finished."_

On 4 April 1787, he wrote to his father:

_"This very moment I have received a piece of news which greatly distresses me, the more so as I gathered from your last letter that, thank God, you were very well indeed. But now I hear that you are really ill. I need hardly tell you how greatly I am longing to receive some reassuring news from yourself. And I still expect it, although I have now made a habit of being prepared in all affairs of life for the worst. As death, when we come to consider it closely, is the true goal of our existence, I have formed during the last few years, such close relations with this best and truest friend of mankind, that his image is not only no longer terrifying to me, but is indeed very soothing and consoling! And I thank my God for graciously granting me the opportunity of learning that death is the key which unlocks the door to our true happiness."_

Some believe the credo motif C-D-F-E, (which dates back to Missa Pange Lingua of Josquin des Prez) in the 4th movement of 41th symphony represent Mozart's final expression of religious faith in instrumental genres.






https://books.google.ca/books?id=AnOY2gkDz9AC
_"Ruth Halliwell, a contrbutor to The Cambridge Mozart Encyclopedia, writes, "An educated guess at the totality of Mozart's beliefs based on reconciling the motley evidence would probably posit a broad belief in Christianity, but impatience with many of the requirements of the Catholic church." Another contributor, Bruce MacIntyre suggests that Mozart seems to have been a freethinking Catholic with a private relationship to God." _


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## chill782002

KenOC said:


> Fact schmact! Recent musicological research has revealed that Beethoven faked his deafness and paid Schindler to write most of his most famous works. :angel:


I have a book, published in 1832 (only five years after Beethoven's death), which states, "The composer Beethoven was completely deaf for the last 10 years of his life and yet he created his best works during that period". I've always found that to be a fascinating viewpoint as the vast majority of Beethoven's contemporaries seemed to regard his last works as pretty much incomprehensible. Unless the author was just talking about the Ninth Symphony?


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## RICK RIEKERT

chill782002 said:


> I have a book, published in 1832 (only five years after Beethoven's death), which states, "The composer Beethoven was completely deaf for the last 10 years of his life and yet he created his best works during that period". I've always found that to be a fascinating viewpoint as the vast majority of Beethoven's contemporaries seemed to regard his last works as pretty much incomprehensible. Unless the author was just talking about the Ninth Symphony?


Beethoven's late style did have prominent supporters not only among musicians but in the press. Though admittedly fighting for an unpopular cause, the _Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung _was founded in Berlin in 1824 by 24 year old Adolf Bernhard Marx, a Beethoven enthusiast, as a rival to its more celebrated conservative counterpart in Leipzig. Marx's publication may be seen, in part, as a strong move in the European press to come to grips with Beethoven's new music. Among the influential Berlin advocates of Beethoven's late music were the poet and music critic Ludwig Rellstab, Wilhelm von Humbolt - founder of the University of Berlin - and prominent members of the faculty, namely the philosophers Schleiermacher and Hegel.


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## millionrainbows

Partita said:


> One pecularity about his masses is that he left out a key part of the "Credo" which is one of the main parts of a mass, forming the central statement of RC doctrine. This is "_and in one holy catholic and apostolic church_". It indicates that he had a problem with this item for some reason. Its exclusion caused problems with the Church authorities, who understandably became reluctant to use the masses.


Well, good for Schubert!!!


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## millionrainbows

KenOC said:


> Actually, I'm one of those who doesn't go out much, because I can't. I'm sure there are others.


What's wrong, KenOC? That is concerning.


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## millionrainbows

Becca said:


> Why don't you look it up yourself? All of your questions are easily researched.


Becca didn't answer you because she is unsure of the spelling of "syphilis."


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## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> Becca didn't answer you because she is unsure of the spelling of "syphilis."


It's just as well it wasn't gonorrhoea as I would have have been in a spot of bother spelling that correctly.


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## Rogerx

I see a topic coming up about those diseases :lol:


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## KenOC

We've had prior threads on syphilis, and listed the composers it brought low. In the 19th and early 20th century, there were many.


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## Guest

KenOC said:


> We've had prior threads on syphilis, and listed the composers it brought low. In the 19th and early 20th century, there were many.


On another forum back in 2007 there was quite a long discussion about syphilis (started of course by a thread on Schubert) which involved a lot of medical information about the various stages of the condition, and the progress of medical science in finding a cure, "magic bullets" etc. Several medically qualified members got involved. All were agreed, of course, that with the latest medication Schubert would have been cured quickly back in 1822 when it was first discovered.


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## Open Book

It has been implied that syphilis might be what brought madness to Schumann. If that was true, how did his wife Clara live to such a ripe old age without being infected? They had many children so they weren't celibate with each other.


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## RICK RIEKERT

Open Book said:


> It has been implied that syphilis might be what brought madness to Schumann. If that was true, how did his wife Clara live to such a ripe old age without being infected? They had many children so they weren't celibate with each other.


Schumann's exposure to syphilis occurred in 1831 (according to his own admission) and per the medical reports he appears to have been treated in accordance with the medical precepts at that time. The treatments would have eliminated his primary symptoms and rendered him noninfectious. Thus the contagious stages were passed by the time of his marriage in 1840 and his wife and children were not infected. However, these treatments were inadequate to stop the internal progress of the infection. It's not uncommon for decades to pass before the final stages of syphilis are manifested.


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## Guest

Open Book said:


> It has been implied that syphilis might be what brought madness to Schumann. If that was true, how did his wife Clara live to such a ripe old age without being infected? They had many children so they weren't celibate with each other.


There are conflicting accounts of what Robert Schumann died of. As is well known, he went mad and finished up in an asylum where he died after a 2-3 year stay. The older theory is that the cause of death was the culmination of "bipolar disorder".

One recent theory is that he died of "tertiary" syphilis. This is the last stage of the disease if untreated (as was the case in Schumann's time and much beyond). It gets into the brain and causes a nasty mess of things. If it's true that he had contracted syphilis at an earlier stage in his life, before he met Clara, then he would have been infectious only in the "primary stage", which doesn't last long. During the "secondary" stage - which is the longest period by far - it is not infectious, and I gather there are no obvious signs.

Therefore, if "tertiary" syphilis was the cause of his death, possibly in conjunction with bipolar disorder or something similar, then Clara would not have been infected and was thus able to avoid the same fate.

I believe that the "jury is still out" on the exact cause of death.


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## Open Book

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Schumann's exposure to syphilis occurred in 1831 (according to his own admission) and per the medical reports he appears to have been treated in accordance with the medical precepts at that time. The treatments would have eliminated his primary symptoms and rendered him noninfectious. Thus the contagious stages were passed by the time of his marriage in 1840 and his wife and children were not infected. However, these treatments were inadequate to stop the internal progress of the infection. It's not uncommon for decades to pass before the final stages of syphilis are manifested.


They didn't have antibiotics in those days, so I doubt there was adequate treatment to render the carrier non-contagious. Infected people often reach that stage on their own with many infectious diseases, without any treatment. Time is medicine because the disease limits itself, so you are right to bring up the timing.

I could have just looked that up in Wikipedia. But we're here to talk and share what we know and use Wikipedia as a backup.


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## Open Book

Partita said:


> There are conflicting accounts of what Robert Schumann died of. As is well known, he went mad and finished up in an asylum where he died after a 2-3 year stay. The older theory is that the cause of death was the culmination of "bipolar disorder".
> 
> Therefore, if "tertiary" syphilis was the cause of his death, possibly in conjunction with bipolar disorder or something similar, then Clara would not have been infected and was thus able to avoid the same fate.


According to Swafford's Brahms biography, Schumann wasn't just bipolar, he was also psychotic, suffering hallucinations.


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## Open Book

Partita said:


> Yet another is that Brahms was bonkers about Clara Schumann.


Bonkers? As a friend, yes.

Again from Swafford's biography, Brahms was a pupil of Schumann up to the latter's tragic death, and a good friend of Clara's as well. Brahms was there for Clara and her family during this time. Social conventions were such that it was expected that he would propose to her in such circumstances, though he was I think seven years younger. But he didn't propose, and the author makes it look like he was horrified with the idea and that Clara, intimating something, was disappointed but accepting. They stayed firmly in the friend zone for the rest of their lives, depending on each other for honest music criticism as well as emotional support.

Brahms remained a bachelor and I can't help wonder, it's possible he was gay.


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## KenOC

Open Book said:


> They didn't have antibiotics in those days, so I doubt there was adequate treatment to render the carrier non-contagious.


In the 19th century, syphilis was usually treated with mercury, which brought on its own problems. It could sometimes make the sores shrink or go away, though it couldn't cure the disease. The saying was, "A night with Venus and a lifetime with Mercury."


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## Guest

Open Book said:


> Bonkers? As a friend, yes.
> 
> Again from Swafford's biography, Brahms was a pupil of Schumann up to the latter's tragic death, and a good friend of Clara's as well. Brahms was there for Clara and her family during this time. Social conventions were such that it was expected that he would propose to her in such circumstances, though he was I think seven years younger. But he didn't propose, and the author makes it look like he was horrified with the idea and that Clara, intimating something, was disappointed but accepting. They stayed firmly in the friend zone for the rest of their lives, depending on each other for honest music criticism as well as emotional support.
> 
> Brahms remained a bachelor and I can't help wonder, *it's possible he was gay*.


I doubt it. Apart from Clara, he had several other female acquaintances. He was also very fond of one of the Schumann daughters, much to the annoyance of Clara.

My theory (nothing more) is that Clara's main love continued to be Robert after his death. She worked tirelessly to promote his works. Her affection for Brahms was less, and he knew it, so rather than push his luck and propose they just remained "good friends".


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## Open Book

Partita said:


> I doubt it. Apart from Clara, he had several other female acquaintances. He was also very fond of one of the Schumann daughters, much to the annoyance of Clara.


Yeah, it's unfair and incorrect to always assume that bachelors are gay. They're usually just not made for cohabitation. Swafford doesn't think he was gay, but some people insist that there is strong evidence he was. In fact there was a weird letter quoted in that book (Brahms burnt many musical manuscripts but an awful lot of his letters are extant) that made it sound like he was once intimate with a man, but maybe I read too much into the flowery prose of the time.

Young Brahms' resistance might have been due to simply not seeing Clara as wife material, too maternal, no physical attraction. Or not being emotionally and financially ready to marry at that age - and take on eight children. That's fair.

I forgot about the Schumann daughter and the circumstances surrounding that.


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## EdwardBast

On Brahms and Clara: Brahms was truly in love with Clara, a sentiment he expressed obliquely in correspondence with his publisher Simrock concerning the Piano Quartet no. 3 in C minor, op. 60. He had composed some of the quartet around the time of Robert Schumann's death. He told Simrock that the work was of little value but he could publish it if he wanted. He suggested that the cover should carry an illustration of a man in a yellow waistcoat with a revolver to his head. What Brahms was describing here was a scene from Goethe's Sorrows of Young Werther in which the hero blew his brains out over an unrequitable love for his best friend's wife. The quartet, especially the first movement, is among the most passionate Brahms ever composed and his note to Simrock indicates why.


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## Triplets

Clouds Weep Snowflakes said:


> Well, he _was_ Austrian, like Mozart, and Mozart was a practicing Catholic...was Schubert one too?


There is a lot of conjecture amongst Musicologists that Schubert was a child molester. If true, it isn't to hard to conjecture that this tendency may have started when the young cherubic lad would have been abused himself by Priests as a choirboy. Presumably that would have led him to having some conflicted feelings about Catholicism, as many present day victims of Priest Abuse do.


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## Guest

Triplets said:


> There is a lot of conjecture amongst Musicologists that Schubert was a child molester. If true, it isn't to hard to conjecture that this tendency may have started when the young cherubic lad would have been abused himself by Priests as a choirboy. Presumably that would have led him to having some conflicted feelings about Catholicism, as many present day victims of Priest Abuse do.


That sounds like a rubbish story to me.


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## EdwardBast

Triplets said:


> There is a lot of conjecture amongst Musicologists that Schubert was a child molester. If true, it isn't to hard to conjecture that this tendency may have started when the young cherubic lad would have been abused himself by Priests as a choirboy. Presumably that would have led him to having some conflicted feelings about Catholicism, as many present day victims of Priest Abuse do.


Do you have any factual/documentary basis for these conjectures?


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## Open Book

EdwardBast said:


> On Brahms and Clara: Brahms was truly in love with Clara, a sentiment he expressed obliquely in correspondence with his publisher Simrock concerning the Piano Quartet no. 3 in C minor, op. 60. He had composed some of the quartet around the time of Robert Schumann's death. He told Simrock that the work was of little value but he could publish it if he wanted. He suggested that the cover should carry an illustration of a man in a yellow waistcoat with a revolver to his head. What Brahms was describing here was a scene from Goethe's Sorrows of Young Werther in which the hero blew his brains out over an unrequitable love for his best friend's wife. The quartet, especially the first movement, is among the most passionate Brahms ever composed and his note to Simrock indicates why.


Interesting. That's not how Swafford shaded their relationship. In those days a widow would often be proposed to by a friend or relative of her husband's to save her and her family from destitution (notwithstanding the fact that Clara could and did support her children by touring and giving piano recitals).

As Swafford tells it, there was a time after Schumann's death when it would have been the moment for Brahms to propose, Clara was expecting it, but he shied away from it, she seemed shocked, but that was the end of that. They stayed friends. They got on each other's nerves and went through phases of cool separation sometimes. But they were close supportive friends and music bound them together; they were important musical influences on each other.

At no time does Swafford read any romantic attraction into Brahms' feelings for Clara, and she presumably put aside any such feelings she might have had when the marriage proposal failed to materialize. But I see other biographers must have a different opinion for several people here to think Brahms was bonkers over Clara and lived as a bachelor due to unrequited love.

A quick check shows that the quartet you are describing was published about 20 years after Schumann's death. So he'd been carrying the torch for Clara that long? Of course he did spend many years perfecting some of his works before publishing them.


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## Guest

Open Book said:


> Interesting. That's not how Swafford shaded their relationship. In those days a widow would often be proposed to by a friend or relative of her husband's to save her and her family from destitution (notwithstanding the fact that Clara could and did support her children by touring and giving piano recitals).
> 
> As Swafford tells it, there was a time after Schumann's death when it would have been the moment for Brahms to propose, Clara was expecting it, but he shied away from it, she seemed shocked, but that was the end of that. They stayed friends. They got on each other's nerves and went through phases of cool separation sometimes. But they were close supportive friends and music bound them together; they were important musical influences on each other.
> 
> At no time does Swafford read any romantic attraction into Brahms' feelings for Clara, and she presumably put aside any such feelings she might have had when the marriage proposal failed to materialize. But I see other biographers must have a different opinion for several people here to think Brahms was bonkers over Clara and lived as a bachelor due to unrequited love.
> 
> A quick check shows that the quartet you are describing was published about 20 years after Schumann's death. So he'd been carrying the torch for Clara that long? Of course he did spend many years perfecting some of his works before publishing them.


I haven't read Swafford's assessment of the situation between Brahms and Clara Schumann, so I can't comment on that. I have, however, read many other accounts of this relationship from various other sources. I once glanced through the letters between them that were published back in in the 1970s. They all tell a similar story that they had a very high regard for each other.

The relationship lasted 43 years on and off. At certain times Brahms sought other female company. I don't know which of them held the higher regard for the other. My feeling is that it was Brahms who felt the stronger passion. The reasons why it never ended in a marriage can only be guessed at. I suspect that part of the reason was that it took Clara a long time to get over the worst of the shock of losing her husband. It's possible too that she didn't want to become bogged down with the prospect of more children, as she was only 37 when Robert died. She was a brilliant pianist and a good composer, and probably wanted a career, not just for her own self-esteem but in order to promote the works of her deceased husband.

Possibly Clara may have tired somewhat of Brahms as he aged. He was a handsome young man but from his later photos he seems to have deteriorated in physical appearance. He may also have been rather too fond of booze as he aged, if his death due to liver cancer (possibly related to cirrhosis) is anything to go by. Brahms had a reputation for rather straight talking, and suffering fools lightly etc. In all these matters, he may have seemed a less attractive proposition than her first love, Robert Schumann, so she may have played safe and remained single for these reasons. I really don't know, however, and am only speculating.


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## EdwardBast

Open Book said:


> Interesting. That's not how Swafford shaded their relationship. In those days a widow would often be proposed to by a friend or relative of her husband's to save her and her family from destitution (notwithstanding the fact that Clara could and did support her children by touring and giving piano recitals).
> 
> As Swafford tells it, there was a time after Schumann's death when it would have been the moment for Brahms to propose, Clara was expecting it, but he shied away from it, she seemed shocked, but that was the end of that. They stayed friends. They got on each other's nerves and went through phases of cool separation sometimes. But they were close supportive friends and music bound them together; they were important musical influences on each other.
> 
> At no time does Swafford read any romantic attraction into Brahms' feelings for Clara, and she presumably put aside any such feelings she might have had when the marriage proposal failed to materialize. But I see other biographers must have a different opinion for several people here to think Brahms was bonkers over Clara and lived as a bachelor due to unrequited love.
> 
> A quick check shows that the quartet you are describing was published about 20 years after Schumann's death. So he'd been *carrying the torch for Clara that long?* Of course he did spend many years perfecting some of his works before publishing them.


Not carrying a torch. More like looking back sheepishly at his youthful feelings? In the letter to Simrock (quoted below*) Brahms was writing retrospectively; his op. 60 was completed and published twenty years after the original movements were composed. Crucially, they were composed while Robert was still alive and institutionalized and therefore, well before any decision about marriage to Clara was on the table. At this time, in 1855, Brahms, like Goethe's Werther, was intimately associated with a close friend's unavailable wife. Now it is possible that when Brahms wrote his letter twenty years later, he had no intention beyond poking fun at the youthful passion of the music by comparing it to a well-known, overwrought scene from contemporary literature. But he couldn't have been unaware that the triangular relationship in Goethe's novel paralleled his own situation with Clara and Robert in 1855. I suspect that in the letter to Simrock he was chuckling at a youthful passion, one that might have cooled or that he might have reconsidered once the potential prospect of marriage became a reality a year or two later.

I have no idea what any of this has to do with Schubert's religious convictions. 

*_On the cover you must have a picture, namely a head with a pistol to it. Now you can form some conception of the music! I'll send you my photograph for the purpose. You can use blue coat, yellow breeches and top-boots, since you seem to like color-printing.
_


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## Larkenfield

Triplets said:


> There is a lot of conjecture amongst Musicologists that Schubert was a child molester. If true, it isn't to hard to conjecture that this tendency may have started when the young cherubic lad would have been abused himself by Priests as a choirboy. Presumably that would have led him to having some conflicted feelings about Catholicism, as many present day victims of Priest Abuse do.


On controversial subjects, it truly helps to post exact quotes, especially when there's heavy conjecture. A child molester? Really? Citation please. This is all presumption and speculation unless there's something more definite that's presented. In any event, his sex life didn't seem to affect his ability as a composer, though Schubert's recent biographies would love for this dirt to be true because it sells books. Isn't it enough that he attended ***** houses and probably felt no remore for doing so because he continued to write Catholic Masses. However casual, careless or unwise his sex life may have been, there still seems to be a continuous purity, inspiration and innocence to his music, even if sometimes there seems to be an underlying melancholy as well. He wrote six Masses, including one during the last year of his life, so despite his mixed feelings, the Church was evidently something that he never entirely lost sight of or he came back to:

"Throughout his life, Franz Schubert's relationship to the Catholic church and possibly to the Catholic religion was one of mixed feelings. In 1825, he wrote in a letter to his parents that he never "forced [himself] to prayer". Nevertheless, he wrote almost 39 works of sacred music showing anything but cool distance. One sometimes has the impression as if Schubert attempted to give his personal piety and his individual faith an equally personal space in his works of sacred music."

On Schubert's sacred and liturgical works: https://www.franzpeterschubert.com/sacred_music.html


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## Luchesi

Larkenfield said:


> On controversial subjects, it truly helps to post exact quotes, especially when there's heavy conjecture. A child molester? Really? Citation please. This is all presumption and speculation unless there's something more definite that's presented. In any event, his sex life didn't seem to affect his ability as a composer, though Schubert's recent biographies would love for this dirt to be true because it sells books. Isn't it enough that he attended ***** houses and probably felt no remore for doing so because he continued to write Catholic Masses. However casual, careless or unwise his sex life may have been, there still seems to be a continuous purity, inspiration and innocence to his music, even if sometimes there seems to be an underlying melancholy as well. He wrote six Masses, including one during the last year of his life, so despite his mixed feelings, the Church was evidently something that he never entirely lost sight of or he came back to:
> 
> "Throughout his life, Franz Schubert's relationship to the Catholic church and possibly to the Catholic religion was one of mixed feelings. In 1825, he wrote in a letter to his parents that he never "forced [himself] to prayer". Nevertheless, he wrote almost 39 works of sacred music showing anything but cool distance. One sometimes has the impression as if Schubert attempted to give his personal piety and his individual faith an equally personal space in his works of sacred music."
> 
> On Schubert's sacred and liturgical works: https://www.franzpeterschubert.com/sacred_music.html


In the past I've wondered about what men (in the early 1800s) thought about the dangers of *****houses. Pasteur didn't produce the science until 1881, and then it wasn't even accepted by a majority of physicians until sometime later.

"Proving the germ theory of disease was the crowning achievement of the French scientist Louis Pasteur. He was notthe first to propose that diseases were caused by microscopic organisms, but the view was controversial in the 19th century, and opposed the accepted theory of "spontaneous generation".

Pasteur set out to understand the fermentation process, and soon realised that alcohol in wine was produced by yeast which lived on the skins of grapes. During fermentation the yeast appeared healthy and budding under a microscope, but lactic acid was formed and the wine turned to vinegar when other microbes were seen among the yeast cells. Further analysis of the wine showed a number of complex organic molecules, some of which were able to rotate light, a property of compounds produced by living organisms. Through several experiments Pasteur showed that fermentation required contact with dust in the air.

Pasteur then turned his attention to the health of silk worms, which produced silk for the cloth industry. He discovered that he found that healthy silk-worms became ill when they nested in the bedding of those suffering from disease. In this study Pasteur found that environment directly affected contagion, and that the spread of disease could be controlled by sterilisation. His studies on yeast had shown that microbes could be air-borne, and he realised that these two studies could be directly applied to the transmission of disease in humans. He spoke on the subject at The Academy of Medicine in Paris, and although his radical ideas were only accepted by a few physicians, his recommendations saw the introduction of sterile surgical techniques.

Final proof of germ theory came when Pasteur was able to grow the anthrax bacillus in culture. Although anthrax had been isolated by Robert Koch, opponents believed that the spores he found could have been containments in his culture medium. Pasteur placed a drop of blood from a sheep dying of anthrax into a sterile culture, and allowed the bacilli to grow. He repeated this process until none of the original culture remained in the final dish. The final culture produced anthrax when injected into sheep, showing that the bacillus was responsible for the disease."


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## Littlephrase

By far the most interesting case of a composer destroyed by syphilis is that of the oft-forgotten Adrian Leverkühn. Some say it might’ve involved “Mephistophelean” forces...


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## flamencosketches

Littlephrase1913 said:


> By far the most interesting case of a composer destroyed by syphilis is that of the oft-forgotten Adrian Leverkühn. Some say it might've involved "Mephistophelean" forces...


Arnold Schoenberg was apparently outraged at this character, whom he saw as a thinly veiled representation of his own life and work. Apparently, he once cornered the author's wife at a Los Angeles supermarket at one point and chewed her head off about how "none of it was true, I never even had syphilis". :lol:


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## EdwardBast

Littlephrase1913 said:


> By far the most interesting case of a composer destroyed by syphilis is that of the oft-forgotten Adrian Leverkühn. Some say it might've involved "Mephistophelean" forces...


Others say it might have involved a syphilitic Spanish prostitute and a Mephisophelean character ripped (off) from Ivan Karamazov's fever dreams.



Larkenfield said:


> On controversial subjects, it truly helps to post exact quotes, especially when there's heavy conjecture. A child molester? Really? Citation please. This is all presumption and speculation unless there's something more definite that's presented. *In any event, [Schubert's] sex life didn't seem to affect his ability as a composer … *


While I agree with your views on citing evidence for controversial claims, Schubert's sex life, in particular his assignations with diseased prostitutes, seems to have powerfully affected his ability as a composer, as being dead from syphilis makes composing significantly more difficult - or so I would imagine.


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## Littlephrase

EdwardBast said:


> Others say it might have involved a syphilitic Spanish prostitute and a Mephisophelean character ripped (off) from Ivan Karamazov's fever dreams.


Ripped off? That's a bit harsh. Ivan's apparition couldn't even speak Early High German...


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## EdwardBast

Littlephrase1913 said:


> Ripped off? That's a bit harsh. Ivan's apparition couldn't even speak Early High German...


You could be right. It is possible that a seedy, unimpressive demon in a bad suit is a trope predating Dostoyevsky.


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## Guest

EdwardBast said:


> Others say it might have involved a syphilitic Spanish prostitute and a Mephisophelean character ripped (off) from Ivan Karamazov's fever dreams.
> 
> While I agree with your views on citing evidence for controversial claims, Schubert's sex life, in particular his assignations with diseased prostitutes, seems to have powerfully affected his ability as a composer, as being dead from syphilis makes composing significantly more difficult - or so I would imagine.


I think it was around 1822/23 when he was 25 that he discovered the syphilis infection. I'm not sure how far this infection affected his overall composing work. He tended to have ups and downs in his ability/enthusiasm for writing music following this discovery but it may had other causes. Whatever the cause, it may partly account for the fact that some of his works were unfinished, some famously so. A more likely explanation was that he simply lost inspiration part way though composition, and since there was no commission to produce the work in question he simply dropped it and moved on to something else.

He must have known that his life was going to be significantly curtailed on account of the syphilis. As is well known, during his last year of life, and especially during the last few months when he was holed up in his brother's apartment, he still managed to compose some of his greatest works, and may not have been fully aware that the end was nigh. As evidence, he used to ask his brother why he (Franz) felt so ill, and he began lessons on counterpoint with an expert at a very late time, shortly before his death. He also started work on various works that he never finished, e.g. Symphony No 10. None of this suggests that he was expecting to die soon. The likelihood is that the cause of death was something to do with the damp, unhealthy conditions of where he was living, or possibly typhus or similar as has mentioned by some sources. It doesn't seem likely that it was due to tertiary syphilis since that was (as far I understand) usually associated with a severe mental deterioration.


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## Luchesi

wrong video, sorry


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## Luchesi

Partita said:


> I think it was around 1822/23 when he was 25 that he discovered the syphilis infection. I'm not sure how far this infection affected his overall composing work. He tended to have ups and downs in his ability/enthusiasm for writing music following this discovery but it may had other causes. Whatever the cause, it may partly account for the fact that some of his works were unfinished, some famously so. A more likely explanation was that he simply lost inspiration part way though composition, and since there was no commission to produce the work in question he simply dropped it and moved on to something else.
> 
> He must have known that his life was going to be significantly curtailed on account of the syphilis. As is well known, during his last year of life, and especially during the last few months when he was holed up in his brother's apartment, he still managed to compose some of his greatest works, and may not have been fully aware that the end was nigh. As evidence, he used to ask his brother why he (Franz) felt so ill, and he began lessons on counterpoint with an expert at a very late time, shortly before his death. He also started work on various works that he never finished, e.g. Symphony No 10. None of this suggests that he was expecting to die soon. The likelihood is that the cause of death was something to do with the damp, unhealthy conditions of where he was living, or possibly typhus or similar as has mentioned by some sources. It doesn't seem likely that it was due to tertiary syphilis since that was (as far I understand) usually associated with a severe mental deterioration.


here's the video


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## Guest

Luchesi said:


> here's the video


Thanks. i haven't seen it before. I watched the opening 10 minutes and couldn't watch any more of it. I have never found material like this to be of any interest to me. I have a pretty strong mental image of Schubert (based on lots of reading) and what I saw in that video was miles adrift. The actor is nothing like the Schubert I know, shy, demure, day-dreamer, probably a bit shabby in dress. I don't know what the video contains or how it ends and I'm not interested.


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## Larkenfield

EdwardBast said:


> Others say it might have involved a syphilitic Spanish prostitute and a Mephisophelean character ripped (off) from Ivan Karamazov's fever dreams.
> 
> While I agree with your views on citing evidence for controversial claims, Schubert's sex life, in particular his assignations with diseased prostitutes, seems to have powerfully affected his ability as a composer, as being dead from syphilis makes composing significantly more difficult - or so I would imagine.


I have to disagree. His great Fantasy an F minor was written during his last year of life and his immortal Winterreise only the year before, but his general health was breaking down. His condition does not seem to have impaired his ability to compose but it apparently shortened his life and undoubtedly affected his emotional life as well with episodes of melancholy. Such miserable suffering he had to endure.


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## AeolianStrains

Larkenfield said:


> I have to disagree. His great Fantasy an F minor was written during his last year of life and his immortal Winterreise only the year before, but his general health was breaking down. His condition does not seem to have impaired his ability to compose but it apparently shortened his life and undoubtedly affected his emotional life as well with episodes of melancholy. Such miserable suffering he had to endure.


I don't think he suffered too much after he died.



EdwardBast said:


> *as being dead from syphilis makes composing significantly more difficult*


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## EdwardBast

Larkenfield said:


> I have to disagree. His great Fantasy an F minor was written during his last year of life and his immortal Winterreise only the year before, but his general health was breaking down. His condition does not seem to have impaired his ability to compose but it apparently shortened his life and undoubtedly affected his emotional life as well with episodes of melancholy. Such miserable suffering he had to endure.


Whooooooosh! - - - - - - -


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## Open Book

Partita said:


> Thanks. i haven't seen it before. I watched the opening 10 minutes and couldn't watch any more of it. I have never found material like this to be of any interest to me. I have a pretty strong mental image of Schubert (based on lots of reading) and what I saw in that video was miles adrift. The actor is nothing like the Schubert I know, shy, demure, day-dreamer, probably a bit shabby in dress. I don't know what the video contains or how it ends and I'm not interested.


That actor looks like Newman on the Seinfeld show.


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## Guest

The personal circumstances of Schubert are pretty close to unknowable, and I don't find myself too interested. The music he left for us is irreplaceable. The biographical speculations don't touch that.


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## millionrainbows

*Was Schubert a Catholic?*

I think a more interesting question would be, "Was Schubert a Mason?"


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## Luchesi

Baron Scarpia said:


> The personal circumstances of Schubert are pretty close to unknowable, and I don't find myself too interested. The music he left for us is irreplaceable. The biographical speculations don't touch that.


I still think that CM enthusiasts should be continually aware of the harsh conditions under which some of the greatest music has been imagined and crafted. The cold winters and the damp and the harsh summer heat, and the diseases all around, many child deaths, poor nutrition, candle light.. We can think of more these days because we're so comfortable.


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## Larkenfield

Luchesi said:


> I still think that CM enthusiasts should be continually aware of the harsh conditions under which some of the greatest music has been imagined and crafted. The cold winters and the damp and the harsh summer heat, and the diseases all around, many child deaths, poor nutrition, candle light.. We can think of more these days because we're so comfortable.


Yes, of course. But those circumstantial conditions are different than some of the speculations about Schubert's sex life, which I feel have no bearing on him as one of the immortals. Look at what Robert Schumann and Hugo Wolf went through to get their music written. Some might say it was pure madness. We do owe them a great depth of gratitude, And that's why I don't like to see their reputations or music kicked around, including the likes of Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. I don't care to see them trashed by those without talent who should know better.


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## Luchesi

"Those that have studied Beethoven's letters, buzzing noises and other sounds started at around 1796 at age 26. The deafness began in 1798 and Beethoven had lost 60% of his hearing by 1801 at age 31. 
At 46 in 1816 he was completely deaf. The supposition is that he was able to hear most of his life and, therefore, could recognize tones and especially dissonances simply by the written musical notes. In fact, some, at the time, speculated that one reason for his brilliant compositions was that he didn't hear and this enabled him to construct symphonies without the distraction of hearing other composer's work. Awesome Stories (2011) indicates that to cope with his growing deafness, Beethoven began writing symphonies. At breakneck speed, he worked on several projects at once. "I live entirely in my music," he said. "At my current rate, I'm often composing three or four more works at the same time."
In his later years, when the deafness affected his ability to compose properly, Beethoven sawed the legs off his piano, and used the floor as a sounding board. Lying with his ear to the wooden floor, and hitting the piano notes at various volumes to gauge if the volume fitted with the music he could hear in his head."

"Whatever the etiology of Beethoven's hearing loss, he would have been an extremely challenging patient. Imagine him walking into your clinic today, tinnitus, known hypocusis, high frequency hearing loss all which we can treat today."

also included the autopsy of Beethoven;
https://hearinghealthmatters.org/he...ing-beethoven-part-ii-the-medical-conclusion/

It makes me wonder, treat his deafness and other maladies and give him a ballpoint pen and plenty of paper? Or even more, give him a computer so that he could use a music editor and he would be so distracted that there would be no new music.


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## Guest

Luchesi said:


> "Whatever the etiology of Beethoven's hearing loss, he would have been an extremely challenging patient. Imagine him walking into your clinic today, tinnitus, known hypocusis, high frequency hearing loss all which we can treat today."


I don't follow that. Even today there is no effective therapy for tinnitus. High frequency hearing loss can be corrected with a hearing aid, but the profound hearing loss Beethoven experienced at the end would be untreatable. There are gadgets that have a microphone and create some stimulus on the auditory nerve, but the autopsy showed the auditory nerve had degenerated.

I remember reading that most of Beethoven's ailments were caused by lead poisoning, which came from a variety of wine he favored and drank in large quantities. He could have been saved by a blood test, if they existed then.


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