# Where to start?



## Turangalîla

In a nutshell:

I am confident with my level of pianism and I am comfortable with every interpretation I create.
Not so with composition.
I am scared that I am going to write something awful.
But I'm finally going to try.

HELP ME.

I am looking for both encouragement and creative inspiration. _Go!_


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## Taggart

Presumably you've been through Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias and WTC 1 so you must have developed some notions of your own. You've worked through this looking at ornamentation and harmony and improvisation. Start with a simple theme and develop it in a suitable manner. If that's not to your taste, move forward (or backward) to a composer you like and start analysing what (s)he does and then launch out.

From what we've seen of you, you are exceptionally capable and will recognise and avoid awfulness.


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## HansMaestroMusic

Ok, well let's start at the most basic fundamentals and expand from there.

Piano is an amazing instrument to use as a composition tool, whether you're writing for Piano, or an entire Orchestra. If you're itching to write, then that means you probably have dormant ideas that are dying to get out. Start with your favorite piano genre (ragtime? classical? showtunes?) and go from there. Once you've started writing, you'll eventually be able to expand on that composition and orchestrate it as you hear it in your head, for the ensemble you'd like. 

If piano is your main instrument, you may have the best results composing for piano. Or maybe even try arrangements of some of the pieces you've loved playing over the years. Public Domain is a great place to start, since you can also publish said arrangements.

Hope that helps!


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## Aramis

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I am looking for both encouragement and creative inspiration.


If you have to look for creative inspiration then I don't think there is good reason for you to compose. Is your goal simply expanding your musical competence by learning this craft? Then I can't encourage you in any way.


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## Crudblud

Carter, my boy, welcome to the craft! I can't help you with inspiration, that's a very personal thing you have to find on your own terms, but I will say that which is dear to me inspires me, usually not in the most obvious of ways. Sometimes you may have to look in some unlikely places for it, too, while at other times it may just come to you seemingly of its own accord. The crucial thing is to seize it when it is there.

I don't have many rules, but one of them, and perhaps the most important one of all, is that I do not call a piece complete unless I am absolutely certain that it feels right. This is something you will get better at over time, as you develop your intuition, but I think you will be helped somewhat to avoid bad material by your prior musical experience. 

Another important rule; don't beat yourself up if you can't find a solution to a problem right away, better to let it sit for a while and produce good work slowly than rush out a hack job just to feel like you've achieved something. This kind of "victory" is very hollow indeed, and you'll find that sense of achievement diminishes rapidly compared to that of something you have nurtured to full bloom over time. Obviously, don't work any slower or faster than is comfortable for you, but don't feel like you have to be one way or the other all the time.

These are things you'll come to understand on your own in time. Until then, just do your best and have fun with it. Good luck!


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## BurningDesire

Aramis said:


> If you have to look for creative inspiration then I don't think there is good reason for you to compose. Is your goal simply expanding your musical competence by learning this craft? Then I can't encourage you in any way.


Wrong. If somebody wants to write music, thats good enough reason. Sometimes one has to look for inspiration, but the thing that is paramount is the desire to create.


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## Aramis

BurningDesire said:


> but the thing that is paramount is the desire to create.


And the desire to create is hardly anything diffrent than creative inspiration. Without it, it may be desire to get the degree, desire to become musical omnibus etc, not to create. So you basically claim I'm wrong just to confirm my words in following sentence.


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## moody

Crudblud said:


> Carter, my boy, welcome to the craft! I can't help you with inspiration, that's a very personal thing you have to find on your own terms, but I will say that which is dear to me inspires me, usually not in the most obvious of ways. Sometimes you may have to look in some unlikely places for it, too, while at other times it may just come to you seemingly of its own accord. The crucial thing is to seize it when it is there.
> 
> I don't have many rules, but one of them, and perhaps the most important one of all, is that I do not call a piece complete unless I am absolutely certain that it feels right. This is something you will get better at over time, as you develop your intuition, but I think you will be helped somewhat to avoid bad material by your prior musical experience.
> 
> Another important rule; don't beat yourself up if you can't find a solution to a problem right away, better to let it sit for a while and produce good work slowly than rush out a hack job just to feel like you've achieved something. This kind of "victory" is very hollow indeed, and you'll find that sense of achievement diminishes rapidly compared to that of something you have nurtured to full bloom over time. Obviously, don't work any slower or faster than is comfortable for you, but don't feel like you have to be one way or the other all the time.
> 
> These are things you'll come to understand on your own in time. Until then, just do your best and have fun with it. Good luck!


That's a sensible and helpful answer, if you have nothing positive to say---=say nothing!!


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## Turangalîla

I have to say that I agree with BD on this one...I may very well have the strong desire to create, but I do not know yet _what _to create or _how_ to go about doing it.


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## hreichgott

Don't be afraid to produce something awful. To my knowledge most composers regularly do. Think of the awful compositions as bad run-throughs in piano practice  they are necessary and indirectly they make us better. And don't be afraid to revise.


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## Turangalîla

Very true, composers like Beethoven, Brahms, Ginastera regularly destroyed their work because it wasn't good enough for them.

Edit: But how arrogant of me to even think of comparing myself to them! :lol:


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## moody

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Very true, composers like Beethoven, Brahms, Ginastera regularly destroyed their work because it wasn't good enough for them.
> 
> Edit: But how arrogant of me to even think of comparing myself to them! :lol:


Good thing you said that before some clever dick jumped in.


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## StevenOBrien

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Where to Start?


With a blank sheet of paper . Or a blank Sibelius/Finale document.

If you don't at least try, you'll never improve. Trying your hand at composing may also offer you new insights into interpreting the music of others!


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## SottoVoce

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I have to say that I agree with BD on this one...I may very well have the strong desire to create, but I do not know yet _what _to create or _how_ to go about doing it.


Mendelssohn, when looking through Beethoven's manuscript, was shocked to find pages of genius beside music written by an amateur. Beethoven just had the genius to know which one was worth saving and which one was for the wastebasket.


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## PetrB

Unless you are a Mozart, you will, almost certainly, write something awful -- at least to begin with.

Start with a musical idea, if you're lucky you may have a form in mind, old style formalist or more modern, like an ABA of, say, Ravvel's Oiseaux Tristes, and start notating -- I'd recommend first pencil, with a very friendly eraser handy nearby 

Next, even if wishing to compose an idiomatic piano piece, make sure your hands are not generating the choice of notes, configurations, rhythms, but that your ear is conceiving of and directing the entire show.

After several, if not many, bad pieces, kind of alright pieces, etc. you will write a good piece. [A problem with being advanced in an area of performance, and knowing music well, has that composition beginner very expectant of coming up with something _right away_ at the level of their other areas of musical maturity -- bzzz almost 100% not the case.]

In a broadcast interview I heard, the inimitable Milton Babbitt commented, "Most of my students could not write a simple piano piece."

Start with something short, simple format -- it is quite a challenge, truly, to write a musical, engaging and simple piano piece for lower or intermediate level, for example.

And.... best of luck.


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## PetrB

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I have to say that I agree with BD on this one...I may very well have the strong desire to create, but I do not know yet _what _to create or _how_ to go about doing it.


Dear fellow:

Noodle about on the keyboard, try a few note combinations, find and listen to a handful of intervals, see if you find anything of interest there: it is better if it is a small chunk with "implications," vs. a whole set tune or a (or, God forbid, a dreaded _Chord Progression._)

Your "inspiration" is when an idea seizes you, makes you wonder where it will go, or what the rest of it is supposed to be. For those to be on your desk, you've got to prime the well and pump it -- good old fashioned work, though noodling can play a huge and helpful part


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## PetrB

Aramis said:


> And the desire to create is hardly anything diffrent than creative inspiration. Without it, it may be desire to get the degree, desire to become musical omnibus etc, not to create. So you basically claim I'm wrong just to confirm my words in following sentence.


Tosh. Many people "desire" many things, and too often those desires, ambitions if you will, remain unborn because they do not take a simple first step, or if they do, they do not take the next few steps.

There is a romantic notion that every piece you make must come from some profound inner well of "having something to say." That is but a conceit, and but one conceit. (Many who think they have something to say have nothing to say at all, but say it they do.)

Just getting at it without worrying about making the next great communicative anything is as good a start as any.

The only way to find out about it, and if you are at all capable, is to start, as a beginner, and keep at it for a while.

Any piece I've made which people think "says something" came about by my pursuing a musical idea and working it to the best of my ability while trusting that if the idea had any integrity, it would "express" something.

While working, I have no prior specific emotional attachment or intent, and no personal interference to direct the piece in any other sort of direction. What I do have is a rabid curiosity as to the nature of the premise, what it cah yield, where it can go and "what kind of piece it is" -- or more accurately, what that wants to and should be (all involving lots of concentrated considerations and real work.)


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## Aramis

> That is but a conceit, and but one conceit.


When you think of it, everything is a conceit. On this subject, there are two kinds of conceits. Romantic conceit about the inner well and cynical conceit denying the former in favor of "if I'm master of my craft, I can write great symphony while sitting in latrine and musing about increasing prices of rapeseed oil".

To argue about this would be large offtopic, so let me just say I'm sceptical about that great symphony.


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## Piwikiwi

Can someone suggest some books on composing? I have harmony and voice leading by aldwell but I'm looking for books that are also about romantic, impressionism and early 20th century music. Should I first learn a how to voice lead/ species counterpoint.


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## BurningDesire

SottoVoce said:


> Mendelssohn, when looking through Beethoven's manuscript, was shocked to find pages of genius beside music written by an amateur. Beethoven just had the genius to know which one was worth saving and which one was for the wastebasket.


Or maybe its that the creative process involves serious work to make something great, alot of the time.


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## StevenOBrien

Piwikiwi said:


> Can someone suggest some books on composing? I have harmony and voice leading by aldwell but I'm looking for books that are also about romantic, impressionism and early 20th century music. Should I first learn a how to voice lead/ species counterpoint.


*Basic Theory*
Yale lecture series to start you off
How to Listen to and Understand Great Music, by Robert Greenberg
Understanding the fundamentals of music, by Robert Greenberg

*More advanced broad stuff*
More Robert Greenberg lectures - From these you will learn how to analyse and critically listen to music, you will become familiar with the major works of composers you choose to study, and you will learn a lot of important music history. Greenberg is a fantastic teacher. I'd highly recommend his "30 Greatest Orchestral Works" to start out with.
Leonard Bernstein's Young Peoples concerts - Old, but absolutely fantastic. Bernstein was a GREAT teacher.
Leonard Bernstein's Omnibus series - Even OLDER, but even more fantastic. Definitely check out the one about Beethoven's fifth symphony, in which he takes Beethoven's discarded sketches for the work and suggests why he discarded them
Leonard Bernstein's Harvard Lecture Series

*Harmony*
Aldwell and Schacter's "Harmony and Voice Leading" - This is the standard college book on harmony these days.
Tchaikovsky's book on harmony - This one, while a little old (written in the 1880s) is VERY clear and to the point. I'd recommend this for starting out on.
Arnold Schoenberg's books on harmony and composition in general - I've only linked to one, but the others aren't too difficult to find.

*Counterpoint*
Counterpoint in Composition, by Felix Salzer - An excellent book that not only teaches you the theory, but also shows you examples of how the masters interpreted and used it.
Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum

*Form*
Classical Form by William Caplin.

*Orchestration*
Samuel Adler's "Orchestration" - An excellent book that comes with a CD with MANY audio and video examples of what he's talking about. This is an invaluable resource.
Thomas Goss' OrchestrationOnline Youtube channel


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## aleazk

This may interest you, Carter. 
There's an Argentine pianist called Horacio Lavandera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horacio_Lavandera). The guy is relatively well known. He plays contemporary music quite often. He worked with Boulez and Stockhausen, playing pieces by these composers under the composers' advice. 
Apparently, he also started to compose in the past years. He uploaded some pieces to youtube:


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## Piwikiwi

StevenOBrien said:


> *Basic Theory*
> Yale lecture series to start you off
> How to Listen to and Understand Great Music, by Robert Greenberg
> Understanding the fundamentals of music, by Robert Greenberg
> 
> *More advanced broad stuff*
> More Robert Greenberg lectures - From these you will learn how to analyse and critically listen to music, you will become familiar with the major works of composers you choose to study, and you will learn a lot of important music history. Greenberg is a fantastic teacher. I'd highly recommend his "30 Greatest Orchestral Works" to start out with.
> Leonard Bernstein's Young Peoples concerts - Old, but absolutely fantastic. Bernstein was a GREAT teacher.
> Leonard Bernstein's Omnibus series - Even OLDER, but even more fantastic. Definitely check out the one about Beethoven's fifth symphony, in which he takes Beethoven's discarded sketches for the work and suggests why he discarded them
> Leonard Bernstein's Harvard Lecture Series
> 
> *Harmony*
> Aldwell and Schacter's "Harmony and Voice Leading" - This is the standard college book on harmony these days.
> Tchaikovsky's book on harmony - This one, while a little old (written in the 1880s) is VERY clear and to the point. I'd recommend this for starting out on.
> Arnold Schoenberg's books on harmony and composition in general - I've only linked to one, but the others aren't too difficult to find.
> 
> *Counterpoint*
> Counterpoint in Composition, by Felix Salzer - An excellent book that not only teaches you the theory, but also shows you examples of how the masters interpreted and used it.
> Johann Joseph Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum
> 
> *Form*
> Classical Form by William Caplin.
> 
> *Orchestration*
> Samuel Adler's "Orchestration" - An excellent book that comes with a CD with MANY audio and video examples of what he's talking about. This is an invaluable resource.
> Thomas Goss' OrchestrationOnline Youtube channel


Wow this is great. Maybe I should have mentioned that I'm already quite good at jazz harmony so I have the basics of music theory down. Btw do you know any books that deal with 20th century harmony?(Debussy, Prokofiev, Stravinsky etc?)


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## aleazk

Piwikiwi said:


> Wow this is great. Maybe I should have mentioned that I'm already quite good at jazz harmony so I have the basics of music theory down. Btw do you know any books that deal with 20th century harmony?(Debussy, Prokofiev, Stravinsky etc?)


If you already have a basic knowledge of music theory, the best way to find out about the techniques used by those composers is to sit down with the scores of their pieces and analyse them.


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## Piwikiwi

aleazk said:


> If you already have a basic knowledge of music theory, the best way to find out about the techniques used by those composers is to sit down with the scores of their pieces and analyse them.


Yes but jazz theory is significantly different from classical theory. Classical theory is more strict in some things and mostly focused on triads instead of seventh chords.


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## pluhagr

Some find it nice to start with a certain set of rules. Stravinsky could not compose without setting certain limitations in his music. This might be the same for you. Something interesting to try could be something like Legeti's musica ricercata where in each piece he begins with one note then adds another and then another until the final piece has all pitches in a chromatic scale. My suggestion would be to just write. And just write crappy music and throw it away. A well known composer once told me that your composer age is how many years you have been composing. So, just keep at it. You won't write anything profound at first but you will get there. Just practice, look at other composer's scores and find a voice in your music.


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## ptr

I think that there has come a lot of good advices so far in the thread! But I believe from experience that You cant put enough emphasis on exercise! And like the hours it takes becoming the master of Your instrument it will take relentless hours with pen and paper (or computer if You like) to master the craft of composition, always put it on paper, that will give You a reference point on Your progression (Just like keeping score of Your academic finals!).

Set Yourself tasks, learn the the techniques and style of Your favourite composers, and of the one's do not understand or hate. fx. if You love Bach, write (like Taggart wrote I think) a set of 48 preludes and fugues, use imitation, write write each one in the language of a different composer, see how You can develop a greater understanding for each composer.

An very important thing with writing imitation pieces for exercises is that it will deepen Your understanding of the composers music for You as a pianist, a win win situation as "far" as You or I can think! Basic compositional education should be a part of any musicians education as it is one very good way of understanding the building blocks and structures of any composers music!

/ptr


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## BurningDesire

One thing you might try is looking at some music you like, and think about why you like it, what sorts of things its doing that you like. For instance what material is being used to generate melodies (scales, modes, pitch collections, rows, etc.)? Or specific harmonies or instruments used, or forms. I'd suggest writing something pretty small-scale at first. It doesn't need to be way short, but for one or 2 instruments at most. For example if you really like the lydian mode, and you like the sound of a guitar and a piano together, maybe try writing a little ditty for the two. I don't know if you're the kind of composer that would like to think of extra-musical things, but if you are, maybe go into your first tune with some kind of extra-musical idea that interests you alot, and try things that you think effectively paint a musical picture of that idea (we could try to help giving you suggestions in that department if thats the case, but it will all really be up to how you view certain musical materials).

It really is tough getting that first work finished, but the important thing really is to just do it. Make yourself make something, finish it, and name it (so that its official). It doesn't need to be spectacular. You need to plant a seed before a tree will grow~


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## PetrB

pluhagr said:


> A well known composer once told me that your composer age is how many years you have been composing.


Beginners of any age, instrumental playing, theory and comp, should remind themselves of this simple truth often. This way to reckon your age relative to any craft or trade is the only measure which counts!


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## kv466

After reading through this thread the most important thing that comes of it, for me, is that Aramis is back! I missed you, man! I liked your initial post and completely see your point of view. 

Having said that, the very next post by The Crudmeister is just about exactly what I would have responded with the exception that I couldn't have said it better myself.

And, Moods, don't be such a wuss.  I could hardly count the number of posts you've directed at me yet the positive ones I can probably show with my fingers. And the cool thing is,...we're still chums!! Not everything has to be all shiny happy people. There is many a thing that can be learned from a harsh and direct critique; if you just look at it correctly and without ego. 

All in all, I wish you the best CJP! I love 'writing' music for piano! I haven't in a very long time now but when asked to play something, I almost always play my own pieces and that is a great thing to be able to do. Cruddie's response is a great one and one I hope you can clearly interpret as it is laid out plain and simply. Best wishes.


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## Aramis

kv466 said:


> After reading through this thread the most important thing that comes of it, for me, is that Aramis is back! I missed you, man! I liked your initial post and completely see your point of view.


I'm glad to hear that, but what's new? I've been posting all around since couple of weeks now.


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## kv466

Aramis said:


> I'm glad to hear that, but what's new? I've been posting all around since couple of weeks now.


What's new is that I haven't been around for a while now.


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## Aramis

kv466 said:


> What's new is that I haven't been around for a while now.


Alright, c'mon, yeah. I've posted some pieces of mine in this section (better than G# minor polonaise HO HO HO) during that time, if you're interested.


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## kv466

Aramis said:


> Alright, c'mon, yeah. I've posted some pieces of mine in this section (better than G# minor polonaise HO HO HO) during that time, if you're interested.


I'll look for them. I remember your polonaise.


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## PetrB

Piwikiwi said:


> Yes but jazz theory is significantly different from classical theory. Classical theory is more strict in some things and mostly focused on triads instead of seventh chords.


Both theories are sets of premises of what worked and how music works (i.e. _no rules)_.

I'd guess you've got adequate "theory." Of course, classical composers don't so exclusively remain in the modal / mixed modal territory, though then and now they mix it up enough, just in different manners.

For first "modern" harmony (truly) look to Debussy. Preludes, Etudes, middle and later piano works, the orchestral scores, chamber music. That is your in to what some guy said was _"not your Grandmother's tonality"_ anymore


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## moody

kv466 said:


> After reading through this thread the most important thing that comes of it, for me, is that Aramis is back! I missed you, man! I liked your initial post and completely see your point of view.
> 
> Having said that, the very next post by The Crudmeister is just about exactly what I would have responded with the exception that I couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> And, Moods, don't be such a wuss.  I could hardly count the number of posts you've directed at me yet the positive ones I can probably show with my fingers. And the cool thing is,...we're still chums!! Not everything has to be all shiny happy people. There is many a thing that can be learned from a harsh and direct critique; if you just look at it correctly and without ego.
> 
> All in all, I wish you the best CJP! I love 'writing' music for piano! I haven't in a very long time now but when asked to play something, I almost always play my own pieces and that is a great thing to be able to do. Cruddie's response is a great one and one I hope you can clearly interpret as it is laid out plain and simply. Best wishes.


Tell you what,you post what you want to post and I'll post what I want to post---will that be OK with you ?


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## kv466

moody said:


> Tell you what,you post what you want to post and I'll post what I want to post---will that be OK with you ?


Very touchy for someone who can just as easily come across as an....

...but, hey, you only help prove my point.

You need all kinds of spices to make a good Gumbo and some of them burn when taken alone.


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## BurningDesire

Hey guys, can we take the pointless back and forth elsewhere? Has nothing to do with this thread.


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## BurningDesire

kv466 said:


> Very touchy for someone who can just as easily come across as an....
> 
> ...but, hey, you only help prove my point.
> 
> You need all kinds of spices to make a good Gumbo and some of them burn when taken alone.


Shush, you're the one picking fights and derailing threads dude.


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## BurningDesire

Aramis said:


> And the desire to create is hardly anything diffrent than creative inspiration. Without it, it may be desire to get the degree, desire to become musical omnibus etc, not to create. So you basically claim I'm wrong just to confirm my words in following sentence.


Uh no, basically not that at all.


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## kv466

BurningDesire said:


> Uh no, basically not that at all.


Actually, if you look back, that started with you BD


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## BurningDesire

kv466 said:


> Actually, if you look back, that started with you BD


No, Aramis said something, and I disagreed with him, and then he said that what I said was basically what he said, and I'm saying it wasn't.

Someone's not paying attention before they post :3


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## Crassus

Focus in trying to create themes that don't sound much alike anything you have ever heard and establishing your own personal traits and forget about quality and some technical details for now.


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