# Is There Anything Objectively Substantial to the Notion of "Seeing Colors" in Music?



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

*Is There Anything Objectively Substantial to the Notion of "Seeing Colors" in Music?*

*Is there anything objectively substantial to the notion of "seeing colors" in music?*

I've heard people say that they see colors when hearing music. That's fine, I can do that, I have an imagination, and who am I to argue with anyone's subjective experience? I imagine all sorts of imagery when listening to music, and I'm sure everyone has at one time or another.

But then, there are those people who get very precise about it, making pronouncements such as _"I see F-sharp as being bright-yellow, and Bb as being dark blue."_ My skepticism begins to kick-in at this point. Why am I skeptical?

Yes, yes, I know about *Scriabin,* and some of the general history of _colors in music._ But my skepticism is fueled by what I also know about tuning and temperament. Some background history follows...

The twentieth century is the age of _equal temperament_ (hereafter referred to as *ET*). During the latter part of the nineteenth century, many attempts were made to achieve ET, and many got close, but it was not truly an exact ET as we now know it. Equal temperament was finally achieved with the 1917 publication of William Braid White's _Modern Piano Tuning and Allied Arts._

"Well" tempering is an earlier predecessor of ET, and is what Bach used. "Well-tempered" means that all 12 key signatures will sound good. Each key area will be different, though; some will have sharper, perfect, or flatter fifths and thirds, etc. "Well" tempering is not "equal" tempering.

Before "well-tempering," other systems were used, like "mean-tone", where a range of sharp and flat keys were useable, but out of that range, had to be excluded for unacceptable fifths, thirds, etc.

These earlier tuning systems, in which each key area sounded slightly different, is where the German term _*affekt*_ came from. For example, a key area might sound "brighter" because its major third was sharper than another; or a key might have a good-sounding b7, and would make its dominant chord sound particularly good.

The thing to understand from all of this is that *ET effectively ended all internal differences between key areas;* C major's M3 was exactly the same (in internal relation) as D-flat's major third, as well as the fifth, and all other internal relations. In ET, all fifths are flat (from perfect) by 2 cents; all major thirds are sharp by 14 cents. So you can see from this that the major third has suffered the most of any consonant interval, thus (IMHO) the popularity of HIP performances & tunings.

So, if there is no *"affekt" anymore,* and every key has been equalized, and all keys are essentially the same, *what are these people hearing?* I think it's a result of their subjective imagination, which cannot be demonstrated or proved in any substantial way.

Regarding _"perfect pitch,"_ I am somewhat skeptical; since there has been no consistent standard for pitch throughout history, then I think "perfect pitch" is a memory phenomenon.

I've heard that being raised in a house with an old piano, which had fallen in pitch, "fooled" many perfect-pitchers into thinking an "A" was an "A", when it was actually closer to being an A-flat or somewhere in-between. _There must be a standard reference,_ and _this must be arrived at by measurement,_ not subjective memory.

Of course, if the person had actually heard a true A, then we could trust that memory; * but not until an external measurement, which we agree is A=440, is first established.* Pitch, and frequency, is a _continuum,_ not a series of steps like a keyboard.

So that's my take on it; now I await the emergence of all the perfect-pitch advocates and subjective artistic imaginers to set me straight.

Reference: _*How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)*_ by Ross W. Duffin


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

I suppose it could come under the term Synesthesia but I doubt there is any clinical evidence that seeing colours for different keys is anything but fanciful. Someone should write a computer program to turn paintings into music and vice versa. Come to think of it, I'm sure somebody already has.

Pre ET music must have displayed a great difference in character for the different keys but it's still a big leap from that to different colours.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

You are correct as far as I can tell regarding equal temperment. I know people who insist that there is a real difference in the feel between c major and another major key. C major is usually said to be more noble. I don't buy it. I cannot hear any difference. I have heard example of music in well temperment and there is a difference between the keys. Not so with equakl temperment.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

do a test using a wide range of people with different tastes in music. ages from 4 to 90 male and female.

its the only way to prove it without the idea already being told to them.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

I somehow think about the emotions that certain piece of music or composer in general causes and consider a color for that. For Baroque and Classical era I often like to put Brown. For more Romantic composers Dark Red, Dark Green/Blue or Medium Blue. For Late Romanticism I consider Gray. But 20th century composers are too comlex, I use Purple for Neo-Classical .. for other genres I'm still undecided.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Arsakes said:


> I somehow think about the emotions that certain piece of music or composer in general causes and consider a color for that. For Baroque and Classical era I often like to put Brown. For more Romantic composers Dark Red, Dark Green/Blue or Medium Blue. For Late Romanticism I consider Gray. But 20th century composers are too comlex, I use Purple for Neo-Classical .. for other genres I'm still undecided.


That makes sense; 
brown=old, aging manuscripts, brown harpsichords and violins.
Red=the passion of Romanticism, Dark Green=noble, verdant fields, Medium blue=the skies of pastoral scenes, rivers
Gray: the disturbed, restless, stormy darkness of late Romanticism
Neoclassical: purple. the garish, the unnatural.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Both absolute hearing and what is heard with it, and that which synesthetes 'hear / see' -- are completely relative.

If 'absolute hearing' were for A '440 only, Mozart and quite a few others before the last quarter of the 1800's would have become very upset if not actually nauseous every time they heard music 

Those with absolute hearing, often in very early childhood, can tell you -- out of thin air as it were -- that the isolated squeak of the hinge on that opening door is G#, and in which particular octave, and if it is in tune. BUT - it is still relative to the convention of the accepted pitch standards of the time. So, eiditic memory for pitched sound. It is said those with absolute hearing can distinguish a G# from a G as readily as they recognize different peoples faces. If Mozart were brought to life, then all of his old pitch friends would have noticeably lost some weight 

All the synesthetes in the world would not universally agree on which color is 'heard' when they listen to a piece in a particular key, either. Name the key, their responses would be a list of varied colors for the same key, dependent upon the individual.

{ADD BTW: there are those with absolute hearing and / or synesthesia who are in no way musical, do not 'do' music. Go figure.}

Not a synesthete, I hear much more harmonic 'color' in Chopin, hear far less bold use of it in Liszt, yet between the two, Liszt was the synesthete. (_'Is_' one a synesthete -- or does one _'have synesthesia' ?_ 

These 'talents' -- each, are hard-wired in a number of the population, but those reactions they have, uh.... _relative_.

_Now. I look forward to that other thread you are going to start with a similar discussion with its topic; "All music is a conceit, the harmonic series is not a law that dictates what is good or great about music, nor its harmonies, etc. etc." That one will certainly be a hay-maker._

P.s. I think there needs to be an earnest thread discussing whether neoclassical music is or is not purple, garish, and unnatural. [_Beethoven: now there is more than often 'Unnatural and Garish' for you!!!_]


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven once called a certain key signature (B minor?) a "black key," though he may have been thinking of the colors of the keys on the keyboard involved in its scale. I assume his pianos used equal temperament...


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

Why would B minor be a "black key" ? C# minor would be more suitable for that name.


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## pendereckiobsessed (Sep 21, 2012)

I agree that certain keys bring up certain emotions better than others, likely based off how dark or light they seem. Compare for example F# major verses C major. F# major is much brighter and expresses different emotions better than C major and vice verse. As with certain colors being percieved, I think it would depend on whether than listener has synthesia. I have no idea as to whether colors experienced by those with Synthesia are subjective or objective, I have no clue whatsoever


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Renaissance said:


> Why would B minor be a "black key" ? C# minor would be more suitable for that name.


Probably because he liked C# minor! There are a couple of very famous examples of course. A quick look for B minor in Beethoven's output finds little. A late bagatelle -- what else? Am I missing something big?

Wiki has something to say here: "By Beethoven's time, however, the perception of B minor had changed considerably: Francesco Galeazzi wrote that B minor was not suitable for music in good taste, and Beethoven labelled a B minor melodic idea in one of his sketchbooks as a 'black key'."


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Petwhac said:


> I suppose it could come under the term Synesthesia but I doubt there is any clinical evidence that seeing colours for different keys is anything but fanciful. Someone should write a computer program to turn paintings into music and vice versa. Come to think of it, I'm sure somebody already has.


it's not exactly the same thing but Ciurlionis was a synestethe and he was a painter and a composer too (altough i haven't heard any of his music).


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

What about the key of D#? What color do you get from that?


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## Schubussy (Nov 2, 2012)

pendereckiobsessed said:


> I agree that certain keys bring up certain emotions better than others, likely based off how dark or light they seem. Compare for example F# major verses C major. F# major is much brighter and expresses different emotions better than C major and vice verse. As with certain colors being percieved, I think it would depend on whether than listener has synthesia. I have no idea as to whether colors experienced by those with Synthesia are subjective or objective, I have no clue whatsoever


I've heard it's subjective, people with synesthesia disagree on the colours they see.


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## brianwalker (Dec 9, 2011)

My friend said that the first movement of the Pastoral Symphony was orange. Henceforth I stopped caring about synesthesia.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Million, it isn't just the uneven tuning of a bygone era that gives keys different characters. I have good sense of pitch, especially in native or related triadic contexts, and especially since I have been singing; the music that is traditionally written in certain keys does have a strong impact on our perception of the keys and creates stereotypes, but I still don't think that explains everything. I can feel a triad in F major or F sharp major. I do admit that A flat and A get fuzzy sometimes, as do E flat and E to a lesser extent, but they do create different feelings for me automatically. I don't believe it is entirely association based. 

Sometimes I think of keys more in terms of temperature and energy level. A very warm and passionate piece can be written in F major, but it will always give it a shade of coolness to me. A major is a very hot key on the other hand. G is temperate. I don't know why I feel that way, but it is so. A passionate piece written in G major, will be given an extra boost of radiance and solidity if raised a half step to A flat, and a more extraverted and flighty version of that seems to occur in A major. C major naturally feels grounded and safe, B flat is sort of sleepy somehow. I transpose melodies and chords for fun a lot.

I am not always consistent in these feelings, but an impression comes to me without any bizarre analysis, though the bizarre analysis usually comes after that.

With regards to having pitch so fixedly absolute that different tuning systems drive one crazy, I know some people are like that, but I am very flexible. I probably don't have the absolute I used to. Being slight out of tune doesn't bother me, except when its relative to other simultaneous harmonies. I often get off by a half step especially at the keys mentioned in the first paragraph if I haven't grounded myself.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> I often get off by a half step especially at the keys mentioned in the first paragraph if I haven't grounded myself.


Speaking of being "harmonically grounded," I did a test one time, and kept a "drone diary" to find out which note i "resonate" with. I would sing the lowest comfortable note I could, every day, and make note of what note it was, checking it with my piano. Turns out that* Bb* kept showing up. So I'm a Bb.

A lot of these differences you are hearing, like Bb being "sleepy" (I call it "majestic"), might be due to resonance characteristics of the instrument(s) you hear them on.

Do you "taste" music? Here's a possible system:

A=anaheim chili peppers
B=bleu cheese
C=cinnamon
D=dijon mustard
E=effervescent champagne
F=fondou; french fries; cheesiness
G=greens, collard or mustard


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Speaking of being "harmonically grounded," I did a test one time, and kept a "drone diary" to find out which note i "resonate" with. I would sing the lowest comfortable note I could, every day, and make note of what note it was, checking it with my piano. Turns out that* Bb* kept showing up. So I'm a Bb.


The lowest comfortable note may be an interesting way to go for this, but that more reflects the physical nature of your vocal chords, which don't necessarily correspond with your speaking range, I've found.

My lowest comfortable note in the morning is a C sharp 2 and later is an E flat 2. D 2 can always be done, but gets less natural in the evenings or after lots of talking. Those would be my resonating notes based on what you wrote perhaps.

I had another interesting idea. Think about your conversational tone when you are really being your relaxed self. Say a word or sentence and "zero in" on the pitch that loosely began to form in a neutral phrase in that sentence, one that is neither overly low in tone or high. That might give you a good sense of the average pitches that come out of your mouth when speaking. The result for this with me was much different. I talk a fourth higher than my lowest comfortable note, *G* is the pitch that tends to bubble out when I "zero in."


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> Do you "taste" music? Here's a possible system:
> 
> A=anaheim chili peppers
> B=bleu cheese
> ...


I trust this is in good humor and you aren't just ridiculing what I said above?

At any rate, I can taste Sushi in the key of G, particularly Eel sushi. It is the most overriding impression I get. Big Macs resonate from a good dominant 7th chord on B. An impression of Ethiopian Spices and injera is so prominent with diminished chords starting on C, that I start to get a craving. I should probably stop now.


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

One question that's on my mind is: How has this affected the sound of orchestras?

I personally equate key areas to different areas in the house I grew up in as a child, and particularly the unique scents of each room. G major is the spare room, C major is the hallway, anything beyond F major are different areas of my garden, etc.

Also, can anyone recommend some good modern recordings where the pieces are performed at A=440, but also tuned in well temperament? I'm interested to hear how much of a difference it really makes.



millionrainbows said:


> That makes sense;
> brown=old, aging manuscripts, brown harpsichords and violins.


Or he could be implying that it's... nevermind. I hope not .


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## Jord (Aug 13, 2012)

Arsakes said:


> Romantic composers Dark Red


It's also a possibility that the reason you think Romantic composers remind you of dark red is because Romantic is to do with love, people usually associate love or romance with the colour red


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

I think that there are three reasons why music in different keys might have a different 'feel' even in equal temperament.

1) Because there are significant pieces already written in that key which influence the composer. The composer follows in their footsteps, as it were. For example, a piece in b minor might be influenced by Bach's mass, or in E flat by Beethoven's pieces in that key.

2) composers think of the keys with subconscious baggage. A composer approaching F major, for example, might see the flat, and think 'subdominant', or G major and think 'dominant' - not in a conscious way of course. This would influence the way he or she writes.

3) Pitch. A high note is a high note to our ears, and a higher note a higher note. I think that even in ET, the key makes a small objective different because of the pitch of the notes, not only because of what instruments are able to play it and how, but because of the effect of each note, which in part depends on how high or low it is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

A fourth reason perhaps: Instruments may sound different in different keys. With strings, the reason is obvious. But even with keyed woodwinds and brass, different requirements of keying may encourage facility or not. Ditto the piano!


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

clavichorder said:


> I trust this is in good humor and you aren't just ridiculing what I said above?
> 
> At any rate, I can taste Sushi in the key of G, particularly Eel sushi. It is the most overriding impression I get. Big Macs resonate from a good dominant 7th chord on B. An impression of Ethiopian Spices and injera is so prominent with diminished chords starting on C, that I start to get a craving. I should probably stop now.


Yes, good intent. I should have put a smiley in! :lol:


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## Clump (Sep 5, 2012)

Perfect pitch is obviously a memory phenomenon, I've never seen anyone imply or claim otherwise.

As for people without perfect pitch or synesthesia, I'm sure their memories would be good enough to conjure up a few associations. I don't have a good enough memory to tell you what key you were playing in just by hearing it, but I do get very slightly different feelings from them just because I'm vaguely reminded of the contexts I've heard them used in.

Also letter-colour associations are very very common, that could possibly get confused with musical notes. I looked up Scriabin's colour wheel and made an "uuuurgh" noise because A was red and I've always thought of it as yellow (the letter, not the note). If people were just listing which keys they associated with which colour I'm sure those wires could get crossed.


Arsakes said:


> I somehow think about the emotions that certain piece of music or composer in general causes and consider a color for that. For Baroque and Classical era I often like to put Brown. For more Romantic composers Dark Red, Dark Green/Blue or Medium Blue. For Late Romanticism I consider Gray. But 20th century composers are too comlex, I use Purple for Neo-Classical .. for other genres I'm still undecided.


I always thing of different instruments as having different colours. Strings are like lush green leafy fronds, and distorted guitars are fuzzy speckled maroon.

Others are more predictable, like brass = orange and pianos = off-white.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jord said:


> It's also a possibility that the reason you think Romantic composers remind you of dark red is because Romantic is to do with love, people usually associate love or romance with the colour red


If you are going to attribute a color to the Romantic era, color it *Longing, Nostalgia (in the literal meaning, 'memory via pain'), Death, Angst, Unrequited Love, Weltschmertz, Shadenfreude, and did I mention Death?*

The era had no notion of our contemporary concept of "romance," neither how we think of it or with the word currently evokes in most people.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

StevenOBrien said:


> One question that's on my mind is: How has this affected the sound of orchestras?
> 
> I personally equate key areas to different areas in the house I grew up in as a child, and particularly the unique scents of each room. G major is the spare room, C major is the hallway, anything beyond F major are different areas of my garden, etc.
> 
> ...


Terry Riley ~ Land's End





Michael Harrison 
Bells




Tone Cloud II, from his 72 minute long, "Revelation: Music in Pure Intonation"


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

I see small blotches of colour sometimes, when listening to music, if I'm really enjoying it. But there's no consistent association between the colour and the pitch.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

I have a decent memory for pitch (sound in general) but I don't think I have perfect pitch. I find the idea of synesthesia very interesting, and people ask me somewhat frequently if I have it because I describe music as colorful, but I don't. I simply like it as a way of describing harmony/timbre, as opposed to words like "rich" and "lush" which kinda sound gross to me (and those are still relying on comparisons to other senses).

I sometimes associate keys with certain characters, but mostly because of pieces other composers have written X3 Perhaps the reason certain keys have somewhat unique characters to some people's ears is because the keys have different difficulties in being played on particular instruments. C Major may have a particularly peaceful, or clear, or happy, or triumphant sound because its the easiest key on a piano, or maybe by association with the triumphant end of Beethoven's 5th Symphony in C Major. I don't know, there's my ** hypotheses


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## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Purely subjective, and necessarily so.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's some interesting videos. The effects are very subtle.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Synaesthesia is a genuine phenomenon , and has been studied by psychologists and scientists for many years . Some people's brains are simply wired differently than most and their different senses are interconnected . Many people with it have been upset or even frightened about it, but psychologists assure them that ther e is absolutely nothing "wrong" with them and they have a unique ability to experience the world .


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Nothing objective across all persons, no. After reading this back-and-forth, though, I think I will be experimenting more with just intonation and various well temperaments as well as alternate tunings for A.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

superhorn said:


> Synaesthesia is a genuine phenomenon , and has been studied by psychologists and scientists for many years . Some people's brains are simply wired differently than most and their different senses are interconnected . Many people with it have been upset or even frightened about it, but psychologists assure them that ther e is absolutely nothing "wrong" with them and they have a unique ability to experience the world .


I've _*heard*_ that people on LSD or mushrooms experience synaesthesia.


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

If you want scientific, peer-reviewed articles you can check the references section available on wikipedia under the term Synesthesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

I think it might be more useful to you than our opinions.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2012)

Oops... nevermind.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

Only in nightmares, hypnogogic 'shadow' visions and _filmed_ examples such as Dumbo, these are the only examples to where I've seen sound. I've never tripped. Someone here has been posting very clever youtubes of Bach's music with a graphic visual representation, that's a great example for possible potentials.


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## oogabooha (Nov 22, 2011)

I find it confusing when people like Scriabin have a neat system for their synesthesia, because mine isn't exactly concrete in terms of each note. There are varying factors to what seeing music is to me. For example, I was at the Met (museum of art) a few weeks ago and saw a tan sculpture and instantly thought of AGEC. It made sense and that's how I translated the image into music. However, there have been other times when I've used a different note in the bass and heard a different set of colors. I do associate notes with colors (A=Red, B=Blue, C=Yellow, D=Green, etc.) but in context the colors may be re-arranged according to what they are paired with.

i've never tripped either, this is just how I hear things. It is interesting to think about how tuning affects this, though


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

^ This about Scirabin reminded me, somehwhat of topic. I remember those science projects and compititions in elementary. I did one on how staring at a color for a minute and turning away leaves a different color impression in your eye wish is visible after leaving the color image. There's even an exacted scientific explanation to the opposing colors visible in the impression. I forgot all the jargon now, no surprise there, I don't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday.

The vast differences between composer's isolated universes and styles has reach a zenith nowadays, that overly general statement is about all I can contribute to Scriabin color approach profunites. I've really been neglecting much music, nothing necessarily wrong with that, but still. Supposedly Prometheus was very influencial to Stravinsky's The Right of Spring, but the encyclopedia which told me that also made me avoid Bruckner for a long time, very critical, though maybe its best insult was for Cesar Cui, if I'm not mistaken


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Clovis said:


> ^ This about Scirabin reminded me, somehwhat of topic. I remember those science projects and compititions in elementary. I did one on how staring at a color for a minute and turning away leaves a different color impression in your eye wish is visible after leaving the color image. There's even an exacted scientific explanation to the opposing colors visible in the impression. I forgot all the jargon now, no surprise there, I don't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday.
> 
> The vast differences between composer's isolated universes and styles has reach a zenith nowadays, that overly general statement is about all I can contribute to Scriabin color approach profunites. I've really been neglecting much music, nothing necessarily wrong with that, but still. Supposedly Prometheus was very influencial to Stravinsky's The Right of Spring, but the encyclopedia which told me that also made me avoid Bruckner for a long time, very critical, though maybe its best insult was for Cesar Cui, if I'm not mistaken


Encyclopedias that insult composers are worthless. The information should be objective in such a text. Incidentally, Cui wrote some beautiful music ^_^


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

Yes, _Objective_ and _Music_, I see...


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

^What _is_ a critique? You mustn't ever touch Schoenberg's essay and letters, never.


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

^Alright, in such a text, this is *impossible*, I fate to burst your bubble, consult some Freud for the nasty details.

The Grove ency. was only 500 in paper when I was a youngin. Wow much is it now, I'll have a look see.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

So I spoke about the color of the whole piece of music. It's very hard to realize any color for any instrument ..


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## Wandering (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm sorry. I was a smarty and hasty mess, don't pound me. All I'm sayiing is lightin' the load, hang loose, are we going to start measuring things within degrees of the Bell Curve, and grade them from there on, or become also so analytical in differing fact and opinion. Be of good cheer, all _mere_ mortals, what's right and what's wrong is far beyond us, getting over ourselves and all its letting goes can be unbelievably medicinal. No more childlike laughs, _no more_, read The Epic of Gilgamesh maybe.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Clovis said:


> Only in nightmares, hypnogogic 'shadow' visions and _filmed_ examples such as Dumbo, these are the only examples to where I've seen sound. I've never tripped. Someone here has been posting very clever youtubes of Bach's music with a graphic visual representation, that's a great example for possible potentials.


That Dumbo sequence is great! I think the experience of "sound as visuals" while tripping would be somewhat more abstract. You could simulate this by looking into a kaleidoscope. As far as existing analogs, look at the 1970s films of the Whitney brothers.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

little late to the discussion, but I just want to say that I do have some bias in particular keys and less so to others. For example, a majority of my favorite works are in the keys of Bb minor/Dbmajor and C# minor. Also I really adore the sound of an E minor 7, where as playing the same chord in Bb sounds terrible and emotionless. Same intervals yes, but I think there may be more to keys than just the relationships between intervals, theres also the position of the keys in the frequency scale, and I think much of the bias comes from certain keys being 'closer' to tunings that are familiar to the human ear (ie. Speech, traffic, ambient noises, birds) or even just being exposed to the same sets of keys for a long period of time.

This probably explains why I have my biases about certain chords sounding better in certain keys than in others.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Igneous01 said:


> little late to the discussion, but I just want to say that I do have some bias in particular keys and less so to others. For example, a majority of my favorite works are in the keys of Bb minor/Dbmajor and C# minor. Also I really adore the sound of an E minor 7, where as playing the same chord in Bb sounds terrible and emotionless. Same intervals yes, but I think there may be more to keys than just the relationships between intervals, theres also the position of the keys in the frequency scale, and I think much of the bias comes from certain keys being 'closer' to tunings that are familiar to the human ear (ie. Speech, traffic, ambient noises, birds) or even just being exposed to the same sets of keys for a long period of time.
> 
> This probably explains why I have my biases about certain chords sounding better in certain keys than in others.


Well, the sound of a chord is relative to the tonality of a given piece on the macro level, and on a smaller scale, to what precedes and follows it. That said, you could certainly find a way to fit an Em7 into a piece in B-flat minor (without modulating, even), if it is properly prepared. If everything is moving in a block chord, a la pop or rock music, of course it's going to sound bad to move from Bfm to Em7, because the notes are pretty much all moving by tritone. But root motion of a tritone can create significant energy if used well.


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## Igneous01 (Jan 27, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> Well, the sound of a chord is relative to the tonality of a given piece on the macro level, and on a smaller scale, to what precedes and follows it. That said, you could certainly find a way to fit an Em7 into a piece in B-flat minor (without modulating, even), if it is properly prepared. If everything is moving in a block chord, a la pop or rock music, of course it's going to sound bad to move from Bfm to Em7, because the notes are pretty much all moving by tritone. But root motion of a tritone can create significant energy if used well.


this is true, but what I meant is that a Bbmin7 sounds terrible to me, and it doesnt really matter in which key I am in. It just looses so much of its energy and 'tragic' like qualities, where as the Emin7 and Ebmin7 are more attractive to me. You can of course prepare it so that the Bbmin7 may sound good (like if we were in F minor) but comparing it to its counter part a tritone higher, it just doesn't have that 'umphh' to it. Again I think its just my bias towards minor 7's sounding better in certain registers in the frequency scale than in others.


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## PhileasFogg (Dec 7, 2012)

I have grapheme-color synesthesia. You don't really see anything, rather it's an ingrained association that is always making you perceive an object (due to the first letter of its name) or person, or word as being of that color in some way. Someone can introduce themselves to me and 6 months later although I don't remember their name I remember it started with an A, M, or some other red letter, even though I am never consciously thinking of such things when I see something or meet someone, the association is just always on. With music, I cannot perceive something's key just by hearing it, but if I could I would almost certainly associate the piece with the color that I perceive that key letter to be. I imagine that Scriabin and others were fairly similar, though the synesthesia could in his case have been directly between the pitch and the color rather than using the key letter as an intermediary.


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