# Conductors you wish there were more recordings of



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Some conductors (Karajan springs to mind) left behind a vast recorded legacy. However, there are others who, for a multitude of reasons, left behind very few recordings or at least very few that are now available.

Which conductors do you rate highly and wish there were more recordings of?

I have two nominees to start things off.

The first is Artur Rodzinski. This Polish conductor, as well as being music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra from 1929 to 1933, was music director of no less than three of the "Big Five" American orchestras over the following 15 years: the Cleveland Orchestra (1933 - 1943), the New York Philharmonic Orchestra (1943 - 1947) and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (1947 - 1948).

Rodzinski, although a gifted conductor, had a reputation of being dictatorial and difficult to work with and was effectively unemployable in the United States after resigning from both the NYPO and CSO in quick succession following disagreements with the management over artistic control. Although there are some recordings of him with the RAI Roma and Torino orchestras in Italy from the early 1950s and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra from late in his career (he died in 1958), almost none of the recordings from his American glory days in the 30s and 40s have been reissued following the 78 era. While I have transfers of a small number of these, this is a situation which, in my opinion, needs to be urgently rectified and I would certainly be happy to pay for a box set made up of these recordings.

My other nominee is Oswald Kabasta, an Austrian conductor who was principal conductor of the Münchner Philharmoniker from 1938 - 1945.

Kabasta was, on the basis of the handful of surviving recordings (I have only four), a great conductor. He was also, unfortunately, an ardent supporter of the Nazi regime which led to his dismissal by the Allied occupation authorities following the end of war as well as his being forbidden to conduct. He committed suicide early the following year.

While we know that Rodzinski made a significant number of recordings although the vast majority of these are unavailable today, Kabasta appears to have made very few. More may exist though, particularly where these are currently misattributed to other conductors as was the case with the 1944 recording of Dvorak's 9th symphony which was long believed to have been conducted by Furtwangler until Kabasta was determined as the real conductor a few years ago.

In any case, who are your nominations and why are there so few recordings of them available?


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Neeme Järvi.
____________


----------



## Guest (Jun 28, 2018)

Eduard van Beinum.


----------



## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

Jascha Horenstein- he has a reasonable discography but many of the recordings are from live concerts with less than ideal sound. His three Mahler studio recordings (Symphonies 1, 3 & 4) are all top notch, shame he didn't get a chance to make more.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Eduard van Beinum.


Agreed, van Beinum was a great conductor. It's a shame that his health issues and premature death prevented him from making more recordings.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Biffo said:


> Jascha Horenstein- he has a reasonable discography but many of the recordings are from live concerts with less than ideal sound. His three Mahler studio recordings (Symphonies 1, 3 & 4) are all top notch, shame he didn't get a chance to make more.


Yes, I rate Horenstein very highly as a Mahler conductor. I don't think the sound of his live recordings of works by that composer are too bad but it's a shame the BBC can't locate the master tapes of his 1969 Proms performance of the 7th symphony.


----------



## Guest (Jun 28, 2018)

Oskar Fried for sure. Also, more Weingartner and Mengelberg would have been good.

Petrenko has done _incredible_ work with the Bavarian State Opera but has made very few recordings.

Aside from that, I really wish there was more available in terms of composer-conductors conducting their own works and works of their peers and younger generations. George Benjamin has conducted Ensemble InterContemporain a number of times and I'd love there to be some CD recordings of that.....Matthias Pintscher is releasing some good stuff!

And of course: *Anton von Webern*


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Wyn Morris - I really like the Mahler and Beethoven I've heard. He was a cantankerous old git who was not averse to pulling a cork, so maybe both record labels and orchestras were reluctant to take a chance on him.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I wish there were more stereo recordings by Furtwangler, since there are exactly none.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

shirime said:


> Oskar Fried for sure. Also, more Weingartner and Mengelberg would have been good.


Good shout, the Fried recordings I've heard are very interesting and he was a pioneering conductor, making the first recordings of both Bruckner's 7th and Mahler's 2nd. Weingartner is fairly well represented in Brahms and Beethoven (the first conductor to record a complete Beethoven symphony cycle) but I would have liked to have heard more recordings of him performing works by other composers as well. Mengelberg is pretty well represented in terms of recordings considering the era he worked in but I certainly wouldn't object to hearing more as he was unquestionably one of the greatest conductors of that period.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

elgars ghost said:


> Wyn Morris - I really like the Mahler and Beethoven I've heard. He was a cantankerous old git who was not averse to pulling a cork, so maybe both record labels and orchestras were reluctant to take a chance on him.


Interesting point re Morris as he was conducting well into the period of digital recording. One would have expected more recordings by him but, as you say, there don't seem to be that many for whatever reason.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> I wish there were more stereo recordings by Furtwangler, since there are exactly none.


There were apparently stereo recordings made of Furtwangler during the war but sadly none of them seem to have survived.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

chill782002 said:


> There were apparently stereo recordings made of Furtwangler during the war but sadly none of them seem to have survived.


What a shame that none survived.


----------



## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

*Carlos Kleiber* springs to mind. I agree regarding *Horenstein*. 
*Gunther Wand* is worth mentioning also. He was great in Austrian/German works, but I would have like to see him record more (esp. works of Reger and Strauss).


----------



## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Istvan Kertesz- he actually managed to record quite a bit in his short lifetime, but there are a lot of composers he never got around to recording, or otherwise recorded very little of, i.e. Mahler, Bruckner, Ravel, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Stravinsky. I suppose this is more of a wish that he hadn't died so young!


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Guido Cantelli also occurs to me in this context. Toscanini was a great admirer but Cantelli was tragically killed in a plane crash in 1956 at only 36 years of age.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Orfeo said:


> *Carlos Kleiber* springs to mind. I agree regarding *Horenstein*.
> *Gunther Wand* is worth mentioning also. He was great in Austrian/German works, but I would have like to see him record more (esp. works of Reger and Strauss).


Agreed, Kleiber and Wand didn't make as many recordings as might have been expected for conductors in that period.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Gordontrek said:


> Istvan Kertesz- he actually managed to record quite a bit in his short lifetime, but there are a lot of composers he never got around to recording, or otherwise recorded very little of, i.e. Mahler, Bruckner, Ravel, Shostakovich, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Stravinsky. I suppose this is more of a wish that he hadn't died so young!


Kertesz was a rare talent and it would have been wonderful had he lived to make more recordings.


----------



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

C. Kleiber and Furtwangler spring most to mind. What I wouldn't give to have more from the latter in better sound.


----------



## Rmathuln (Mar 21, 2018)

Efrem Kurtz
Constantin Silvestri
Thomas Schippers
Georges Pretre


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Eva Yojimbo said:


> C. Kleiber and Furtwangler spring most to mind. What I wouldn't give to have more from the latter in better sound.


If you don't already have it, the "Complete RIAS Recordings" box set on Audite contains the best sounding recordings of Furtwangler that I've heard, particularly impressive considering that they're live recordings. All mono though.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Rmathuln said:


> Efrem Kurtz
> Constantin Silvestri
> Thomas Schippers
> Georges Pretre


All interesting choices. Efrem Kurtz' 1947 recording of Shostakovich's 9th symphony with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra is one of the best versions out there in my opinion.


----------



## Guest (Jun 28, 2018)

I never heard a Serge Baudo that wasn't excellent. I wish there were more


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gary Bertini
Rudolf Moralt
Jean Morel
Paul Paray
Andre Previn


----------



## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Celibidache

He didn't like recordings, but I like his recordings and conducting style


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I wish Paray, Carlos Kleiber and Markevitch had completed Beethoven cycles and I'd love to have heard Ansermet have a crack at Dvorak's 9 symphonies.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

And much more Dorati and Munch too.


----------



## Brahmsian Colors (Sep 16, 2016)

Rudolf Kempe, Eduard Van Beinum, Istvan Kertesz, Peter Maag, Charles Munch


----------



## Eva Yojimbo (Jan 30, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> If you don't already have it, the "Complete RIAS Recordings" box set on Audite contains the best sounding recordings of Furtwangler that I've heard, particularly impressive considering that they're live recordings. All mono though.
> 
> View attachment 105118


Thanks for the suggestion. I'll be sure to check it out.


----------



## PeterFromLA (Jul 22, 2011)

Otto Klemperer and Fritz Reiner


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Boulez. I thought he was an unusually insightful conductor. Britten also.


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Actually , many of these conductors , such as Beinum, Previn , Munch and others made or have made in the case of Previn, a lot more recordings than you might think . 
Previn has recorded everything from Haydn to contemporary music with a wide variety of orchestras in London, Vienna, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh , for example . 
Kleiber's refusal to make more than a handful of official recordings is so frustrating, though .


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> All interesting choices. Efrem Kurtz' 1947 recording of Shostakovich's 9th symphony with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra is one of the best versions out there in my opinion.


Absolutely!! Great recording..Kurtz was a fine conductor.
Lovro con Matacic is another fine conductor who is under-represented in recordings.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

chill782002 said:


> All interesting choices. Efrem Kurtz' 1947 recording of Shostakovich's 9th symphony with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra is one of the best versions out there in my opinion.


Yup...that Kurtz/NYPO recording of Shost #9 is still my favorite version of that symphony...great solo work by NYPO principals.


----------



## Guest (Jul 1, 2018)

superhorn said:


> Actually , many of these conductors , such as Beinum, Previn , Munch and others made or have made in the case of Previn, a lot more recordings than you might think .
> Previn has recorded everything from Haydn to contemporary music with a wide variety of orchestras in London, Vienna, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh , for example .
> Kleiber's refusal to make more than a handful of official recordings is so frustrating, though .


Previn recorded extensively. I'm not aware of a very big discography from van Beinum, at least that has made it to digital media.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

No one's mentioned Giuseppe Sinopoli.


----------



## Biffo (Mar 7, 2016)

amfortas said:


> No one's mentioned Giuseppe Sinopoli.


Possibly because he has an extensive discography - see Amazon. I haven't mentioned him because I heard him conduct the Philharmonia Orchestra several times and wasn't impressed.


----------



## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Biffo said:


> Possibly because he has an extensive discography - see Amazon. I haven't mentioned him because I heard him conduct the Philharmonia Orchestra several times and wasn't impressed.


Your mileage may vary. And the man died at fifty-five, so his discography is far less extensive than it might have been.


----------



## David Phillips (Jun 26, 2017)

Although Elgar recorded much of his own music, apart from 'God save the King' and 'O God our help in ages past' there's nothing by anyone else. He had taken the LSO on successful concert tours, with Brahms 3rd being a speciality. It would be nice to hear how he conducted this work.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Actually, how could I forget Sibelius? We have many recordings of his works but only one brief one of him conducting and a minor work at that. What I wouldn't give for a recording of him conducting one of his symphonies or tone poems.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't want to advocate a thread on "conductors you wish there were fewer recordings of" but isn't there something especially refreshing in the recordings of conductors who didn't get to record so much? I think it may not be just hearing a voice which we don't get to hear much. There might also be a matter of their feeling that a day in the studio is a little special. 

A conductor-orchestra combination I would like there to have been more of is Celibidache with the Munich Phil. There are quite a few but so many of them are so unique and special that I would love there to be more. Celibidache only recorded live and his performances in the Munich period of his life were in no way definitive for any of the pieces he played. But they are so essential - OK, many would call them perverse - that I could never have enough.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> I don't want to advocate a thread on "conductors you wish there were fewer recordings of"


That would be a terrible idea, I agree, but I do know exactly who recorded way too much stuff (and whose work I am not terribly interested in either......)

.....................karajan..................​


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

shirime said:


> That would be a terrible idea, I agree, but I do know exactly who recorded way too much stuff (and whose work I am not terribly interested in either......)
> 
> .....................karajan..................​


Strange. As I reply I can see that you did confirm who it was you were referring to but it wasn't showing (on my screen anyway) in your post (I wonder if it was censored). Still, I had easily guessed with complete certainty. I felt the same way for most of my listening life but partly changed my mind a few years back. He did make a good number of really great records! I suspect you might have views about how a given piece should sound (which I rarely do)? But, for me, Herbie is another of those conductors who is hardly ever definitive but can be unmissable.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I often wonder if C Kleiber had left behind such a huge recording legacy as Karajan whether he would be revered as much as he is. A case of rarity makes one appreciate it more.

On the basis of the Tosca with Callas, de Sabata's relative lack of recordings appears a tragedy.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

DavidA said:


> I often wonder if C Kleiber had left behind such a huge recording legacy as Karajan whether he would be revered as much as he is. A case of rarity makes one appreciate it more.


For me his hit rate was not that impressive, either.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> A conductor-orchestra combination I would like there to have been more of is Celibidache with the Munich Phil. There are quite a few but so many of them are so unique and special that I would love there to be more. Celibidache only recorded live and his performances in the Munich period of his life were in no way definitive for any of the pieces he played. But they are so essential - OK, many would call them perverse - that I could never have enough.


Those recordings were only released after Celibadche's death because he did not approve their release. His heirs decided to cash in.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

DavidA said:


> I often wonder if C Kleiber had left behind such a huge recording legacy as Karajan whether he would be revered as much as he is. A case of rarity makes one appreciate it more.
> 
> On the basis of the Tosca with Callas, de Sabata's relative lack of recordings appears a tragedy.


His repertoire was similarly limited. He was lazy. What to think of someone who had access to the Wiener Philharmoniker and willing collaborators at Deutsche Grammophone and didn't bother.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

shirime said:


> That would be a terrible idea, I agree, but I do know exactly who recorded way too much stuff (and whose work I am not terribly interested in either......)
> 
> .....................karajan..................​


I, for one, can think of a number of things I wish he had recorded, the Sibelius 3rd symphony, for instance, the Maher 7th, maybe more Shostakovich, Roussel and Stravinsky. I wonder if it was his idea to make the various albums of trifles (collections of ballet movement excerpts, baroque bon-bons, etc) or whether DGG wanted those. In any case, clearly no basis for complaint in his large catalog, and I'm sure DGG and EMI were able to finance many money-loosing projects with the revenue that Karajan generated for them.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I, for one, can think of a number of things I wish he had recorded, the Sibelius 3rd symphony, for instance, the Maher 7th, maybe more Shostakovich, Roussel and Stravinsky. I wonder if it was his idea to make the various albums of trifles (collections of ballet movement excerpts, baroque bon-bons, etc) or whether DGG wanted those. In any case, clearly no basis for complaint in his large catalog, and I'm sure DGG and EMI were able to finance many money-loosing projects with the revenue that Karajan generated for them.


Undoubtedly a great talent but also a somewhat divisive figure, more so than almost any other conductor I can think of in fact. His Stravinsky is a little too silky for my taste but I would certainly like to hear a Mahler 7th by him, and a Sibelius 3rd. The fact remains that, whether or not one thinks he took his "worldwide emissary for classical music" role a little too seriously (and a not insignificant number of great conductors suffered from considerably more serious personal failings), he was a unique and sometimes compelling conductor.

My opinion has always been that he got a little comfortable by the mid 60s but his a few of his early recordings, particularly those made before he was appointed as Principal Conductor of the Berliner Philharmoniker in 1954 (following Furtwängler's death), are astonishing.

However, he left a huge recorded legacy, possibly the largest of any conductor, and so is no doubt more content to be judged on the basis of these rather than many of the other conductors mentioned in this thread who may have left towering reputations but few recordings on which to base a view.


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

chill782002 said:


> Undoubtedly a great talent but also a somewhat divisive figure, more so than almost any other conductor I can think of in fact. His Stravinsky is a little too silky for my taste but I would certainly like to hear a Mahler 7th by him, and a Sibelius 3rd. The fact remains that, whether or not one thinks he took his "worldwide emissary for classical music" role a little too seriously (and a not insignificant number of great conductors suffered from considerably more serious personal failings), he was a unique and sometimes compelling conductor.
> 
> My opinion has always been that he got a little comfortable by the mid 60s but his a few of his early recordings, particularly those made before he was appointed as Principal Conductor of the Berliner Philharmoniker in 1954 (following Furtwängler's death), are astonishing.
> 
> However, he left a huge recorded legacy, possibly the largest of any conductor, and so is no doubt more content to be judged on the basis of these rather than many of the other conductors mentioned in this thread who may have left towering reputations but few recordings on which to base a view.


We risk getting off-topic, but...

I have to admit if I come across one of those documentaries about Karajan I don't find him an attractive personality. But so what? He was a conductor, not my uncle.

But he is one of a few conductors which I find have a truly original approach. Rarely would I say a Karajan recording is all you need, but very often a Karajan recording gives a unique view of a piece. If you have Szell, and Reiner, will Solti be something really different? Karajan will, in my experience.


----------



## chill782002 (Jan 12, 2017)

Baron Scarpia said:


> We risk getting off-topic, but...
> 
> I have to admit if I come across one of those documentaries about Karajan I don't find him an attractive personality. But he is one of a few conductors which I find have a truly original approach. Rarely would I say a Karajan recording is all you need, but very often a Karajan recording gives a unique view of a piece. If you have Szell, and Reiner, will Solti be something really different? Karajan will.


Agreed, he certainly produced some of the most unique interpretations of works in the standard repertoire as well as some lesser-known ones. However, each of those interpretations will work considerably better for some than for others.

I'll always be both filled with admiration for and somewhat appalled at the fact that he advised Walton to change the scoring and orchestration in his 1st symphony and then, when Walton justifiably refused to change it, made the changes anyway and performed it in a live radio broadcast by the RAI Roma Orchestra without telling him beforehand. The only time he performed any work by Walton and probably just to make a point. Great and unique interpretation though, even if it's not exactly what the composer had in mind.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Those recordings were only released after Celibadche's death because he did not approve their release. His heirs decided to cash in.


Yes, I know that but it doesn't bother me too much. I am not one of those who believes that sensitive artists' wishes to suppress their _works _need necessarily to be adhered to. Too many things I love have come to us in that way. And, anyway, surely he knew they were recording? They are not bootlegs.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Baron Scarpia said:


> His repertoire was similarly limited. He was lazy. What to think of someone who had access to the Wiener Philharmoniker and willing collaborators at Deutsche Grammophone and didn't bother.


I believe he told an interviewer that he decided to work when he saw his freezer becoming empty. Isn't it said that he was psychologically abused by his father, who really was a great conductor!


----------



## Guest (Jul 9, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Yes, I know that but it doesn't bother me too much. I am not one of those who believes that sensitive artists' wishes to suppress their _works _need necessarily to be adhered to. Too many things I love have come to us in that way. And, anyway, surely he knew they were recording? They are not bootlegs.


Doesn't particularly bother me either, just noting that the paucity of Celi' recordings is not attributable to neglect by the record companies, but his own notions.


----------



## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

Horenstein, Toscanini and Mengelberg. NOt more recordings but recording with present-day technology and sound quality and engineering. Especially HOrenstein. I think his Mahler would be almost a definitive recording.


----------



## Guest (Jul 10, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> Doesn't particularly bother me either, just noting that the paucity of Celi' recordings is not attributable to neglect by the record companies, but his own notions.


I think his disdain for studio recording is understandable..........

Maybe more live recordings would have been good! If only he were with the BRSO instead of the Philharmoniker then there'd be many recordings.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I believe he told an interviewer that he decided to work when he saw his freezer becoming empty. Isn't it said that he was psychologically abused by his father, who really was a great conductor!


It was Karajan who said Kleiber only conducted when his freezer was empty. He was obviously a case. He was known to storm out of a rehearsal because someone made a suggestion.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I read somewhere that Carlos Kleiber suffered from crippling stage fright...


----------



## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

Some were already mentioned

Kleiber
Celi
Horenstein
Lovro von Matacic
Van Beinum
Thomas Schippers
Vernon Handley 
Reginald Goodall 
Paavo Berglund


And from the ones that made a decent amount of recordings but did not quite get to some desirable repertoire.. We need

Furtwaengler - Stereo recordings, a full Ring. I fact, he was to become music director of the Chicago Symphony - however he met resistance because of the nazi taint he acquired and that fell through. Had that happened, all those legendary recordings we got from Fritz Reiner might have come to us from Furts

Bruno Walter - Full Wagner Operas, including a Ring. 

Klemperer - Same, more Wagner, including a Ring that was planned with Anja Silja as Brunhilde

v


----------



## Guest (Jul 14, 2018)

Furtwängler and Nazism? Pretty sure he was opposed to that regime....................


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

This seems a good source on Furtwangler and the Nazis: http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/furtwangler.html

Quite a complex story. He was not a Nazi but he remained when most of his colleagues left and his record in opposing Nazism was mixed. I must confess to finding live recordings of his made during the war fascinating - not only because they were so good but also because I can't get Hollywood-inspired images of uniformed German officers - no doubt including the SS and Gestapo - sitting in the audience: what a privilege! And presumably the humanism didn't get into their thick skulls.


----------



## vmartell (Feb 9, 2017)

shirime said:


> Furtwängler and Nazism? Pretty sure he was opposed to that regime....................


hmm - like it is mentioned above it a complex subject - that's why I wrote "nazi taint", not that he was one. He _probably_ wasn't. But he definitely was no resistance hero... if fact, it was more like wild swings between passive-aggressive opposition when he felt the nazis interfered with his art and accommodation. The guy was one of the supreme conductors and _probably_ not a nazi, but was not better than the average "turn a blind eye" german. Nothing to admire about the human. He was just same as the rest of the sheep that did not fight the devil as long as it did not affect them.



Enthusiast said:


> This seems a good source on Furtwangler and the Nazis: http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/furtwangler.html
> 
> Quite a complex story. He was not a Nazi but he remained when most of his colleagues left and his record in opposing Nazism was mixed. I must confess to finding live recordings of his made during the war fascinating - not only because they were so good but also because I can't get Hollywood-inspired images of uniformed German officers - no doubt including the SS and Gestapo - sitting in the audience: what a privilege! And presumably the humanism didn't get into their thick skulls.


This is a better source, I think

https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Music-Master-Controversial-Furtwangler/dp/0195065085

I've known the classical notes articles for years - I mean the thing is more than 20 years old and is still online! - however, while there is some good info and is not generally inaccurate, it is a bit sycophantic and forgiving. I do think that like many germans from the era, he got off too easy and it was right that he suffered for it - at least someone got some retribution, as opposed to all those judges, teachers, police personnel that were not touched in any way.

That said, Furts Living Stereo recordings would have been fantastic...

v


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

vmartell said:


> hmm - like it is mentioned above it a complex subject - that's why I wrote "nazi taint", not that he was one. He _probably_ wasn't. But he definitely was no resistance hero... if fact, it was more like wild swings between passive-aggressive opposition when he felt the nazis interfered with his art and accommodation. The guy was one of the supreme conductors and _probably_ not a nazi, but was not better than the average "turn a blind eye" german. Nothing to admire about the human. He was just same as the rest of the sheep that did not fight the devil as long as it did not affect them.
> 
> This is a better source, I think
> 
> ...


Well put: a good summary in response to shirime, I think. As for the book, it may be a better source (it is a lot longer) and less sycophantic, and it is newer, but sometimes the added sharpness in more modern material is not necessarily an improvement. But it is true the article doesn't ask or identify some important questions. There is a need to understand the guy: essentially someone who didn't get politics and lived (hid away?) is a world of (German) music. Such is genius, perhaps. One thing I often wonder with these characters, though, is didn't they notice that Jews in their orchestras had disappeared? That should have been a clincher unless they held themselves so much above the mere players that it didn't greatly matter to them.


----------



## Guest (Jul 15, 2018)

I just realised I confused Furtwängler with Knappertsbusch in terms of relationship with the Nazis. My bad.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

shirime said:


> I just realised I confused Furtwängler with Knappertsbusch in terms of relationship with the Nazis. My bad.


Wasn't his situation somewhat similar?


----------



## Guest (Jul 15, 2018)

Enthusiast said:


> Wasn't his situation somewhat similar?


Oh he was very anti-Nazi and didn't even have a membership. Pretty sure Hitler wanted him banned from performing in Germany.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

shirime said:


> Oh he was very anti-Nazi and didn't even have a membership. Pretty sure Hitler wanted him banned from performing in Germany.


That isn't so far from Furtwangler's position. I think Knappertsbusch was a somewhat patrician character who probably looked down on the Nazis as thugs. I'm not sure Furtwangler's position was that different in this. But didn't both more or less closed their eyes to what was happening so long as it didn't interfere with their music making.


----------



## Rmathuln (Mar 21, 2018)

Baron Scarpia said:


> I, for one, can think of a number of things I wish he had recorded, the Sibelius 3rd symphony, for instance, the Maher 7th, maybe more Shostakovich, Roussel and Stravinsky. I wonder if it was his idea to make the various albums of trifles (collections of ballet movement excerpts, baroque bon-bons, etc) or whether DGG wanted those. In any case, clearly no basis for complaint in his large catalog, and I'm sure DGG and EMI were able to finance many money-loosing projects with the revenue that Karajan generated for them.


I wish he had spent more time in the opera pit.
More R. Strauss operas, more Verdi, more Puccini to start with.
Maybe a Eugene Onegin, or some Prokofiev opera.

Choral works too. An Alexander Nevsky, Bruckner Masses, Haydn Masses, Rossini Stabat Mater, Berlioz Requiem, Berlioz Romeo and Juliet.

In the concert hall I especially wish he had done more Liszt, particularly A Faust Sym. and all of the symphonic poems.


----------



## brunumb (Dec 8, 2017)

The recorded legacy of Frank Shipway is too small.


----------



## Eugen von Bismarck (5 mo ago)

Orfeo said:


> *Carlos Kleiber* springs to mind. I agree regarding *Horenstein*.
> *Gunther Wand* is worth mentioning also. He was great in Austrian/German works, but I would have like to see him record more (esp. works of Reger and Strauss).


****, Kleiber is truly the prodigy, really could not get enough from that guy, it is a damn shame he just don’t wanna conduct much, only conduct when he desires.


----------



## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Günter Wand became nationally and internationally famous in the early 1980s (mostly due to the Cologne Bruckner recordings), so he had almost 20 years (died 2002, not sure when he retired probably a few years before his death) to do almost anything he wanted to conduct. He chose to mostly stick to Bruckner, Brahms, Beethoven and Schubert, with many different recordings and live recordings from the 1990s although he had conducted a very broad range of music in the 50s and 60s.


----------



## Subutai (Feb 28, 2021)

amfortas said:


> Neeme Järvi.
> *____*


Dude, are you telling me you can't find enough NEEME JARVI discs??


----------



## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

- Georg Ludwig Jochum (1909-1970), younger brother of Eugen and equally gifted, judging on those few superb Bruckner recordings that survived WWII. I rank the 2nd, 5th and 6th just as high as Furtwängler's. That wartime 5th is one of the greatest 5ths ever recorded. Get it here:




__





May, 2013: Symphony No. 5 / Georg-Ludwig Jochum / Reichs Bruckner Orchestra - Anton Bruckner


Bruckner Discography



www.abruckner.com




After the war his career somehow petered out, and there's just a handful of radio recordings left, with different orchestras.

- Oswald Kabasta (1896-1946). There's a twofer on Music and Arts with stunning wartime performances of the Eroica, Bruckner's 4th and Dvorak's New World (!), made with the Munich Philharmonic. Kabasta (and Hermann Abendroth too) prove that Furtwängler's conducting style wasn't completely unique and that there were other conductors in the 40's and 50th with similar performing principles.
Kabasta's post-war career was doomed because of his nazi sympathies - but it's a tantalizing thought that, if he could have lived two more decades, we could have a stereo recording of Schmidt's "Buch mit Sieben Siegeln" oratorium by the conductor who premiered it...


----------



## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Claus Peter Flor, Hermann Abendroth and above all others Arthur Winograd


----------



## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

{ignore}


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Mravinsky
Kondrashin
Efrem Kurtz
Lovro vin Matacic


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Heck148 said:


> Mravinsky
> Kondrashin
> Efrem Kurtz
> Lovro vin Matacic


Mravinsky in the studio, definitely. I gather he wasn't too keen.


----------



## Ulrich (5 mo ago)

I would say Gustav Mahler. According to Bruno Walter he was even better than Toscanini. Would have been nice to have that on record.

Realistically speaking though, I would have loved to hear more from Georg Tintner. He did a fantastic Bruckner Symphony cycle. But unlike other famous Bruckner conductors like Jochum or Solti he didn’t have the worlds best orchestras playing for him.


----------



## haziz (Sep 15, 2017)

Blomstedt
Kondrashin
Kertesz


----------



## prlj (10 mo ago)

Ulrich said:


> I would say Gustav Mahler. According to Bruno Walter he was even better than Toscanini. Would have been nice to have that on record.


I came here to say the same name - Mahler. What we wouldn't give to hear him conduct not only his own works, but many of his opera interpretations as well.


----------



## Simon23 (Dec 8, 2020)

Carlos Kleiber, Erich Kleiber, Jasha Horenstein, Eduard Van Beinum, Ferenc Fricsay.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

More Maximiano Cobra would be great. Gotta love those sharp, brisk and concise Beethoven symphonies. Could you imagine his Mahler 3rd?


----------



## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Merl said:


> More Maximiano Cobra would be great. Gotta love those sharp, brisk and concise Beethoven symphonies. Could you imagine his Mahler 3rd?


I think our lives would be immeasurably enriched if he gave us transcriptions of Sorabji's _Opus clavicembalisticum, _ or maybe the _Symphonic Variations for Piano._


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Joseph Keilberth ( 1908 - 1968 ) was an outstanding German conductor who died of a heart attack in 1968 at the Bavarian State opera in Munich while conducting a performance of Tristan & Isolde . There are live recordings of him at the Bayreuth festival conducting Der Fliegende Hollander , Lohengrin and the Ring which have long been widely admired , as well as live recordings of. Die Frau ohne Schattewn and Arabella in Munich , a studio Freischutz with the Berlin Philharmonic without spoken dialogue and a. recording of Hindemith's expressionistic opera "Cardillac " from Cologne , as well as. one of the best Bruckner 6ths I've ever heard with the Berlin Phil for example, but. if he had mot died at the relatively young age of 60 he could have left so many other superb recordings .


----------

