# Counterpoint as a focus among post Beethoven composers



## GradusAdParnassum (May 31, 2017)

Hi all, long time lurker here. Decided to make an account as I continue down the classical rabbit hole.

I've always appreciated classical and been aware of and listened to the 'greatest hits' (Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, Beethoven's 9th, New World Symphony etc) but Beethoven is the first composer whose works I've really immersed myself in. 

After a few months I'm beginning to really understand his progression as a composer. From respectfully emulating Haydn and Mozart to breaking out of tradition with the Heroic style then reinventing his output again in his later years.

What strikes me is Beethoven's focus on old school baroque forms in his late music. In 'Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph' - a really excellent biography of Beethoven - the author explains how Beethoven, in his pursuit of innovation, saw counterpoint as something he could blend with more modern forms.

When I reached that point in the biography I got excited, as I had not yet delved into Beethoven's late work and now had something new to look forward to. The Art of Fugue is one of my favorite pieces of music so I knew that Beethoven embracing the techniques of fugue would make for some excellent stuff.

Of course I was not disappointed. But this brings me to the topic of this post. Who else after Beethoven took contrapuntal forms and made them a core feature of their music, or used them to innovate in some interesting way?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

The first thing to do is to distinguish between contrapuntal forms - structures which depend on imitation like canons - and counterpoint in the sense of polyphony, where the tension in the music results partly from the collision of independent voices. 

There are plenty of composers post Beethoven who have explored the latter, Frederick Chopin (in the later mazurkas especially) and William Carter (in the quartets 3 and 4 ) are obvious examples. 

But as far as the former is concerned, it's more difficult to think of examples apart from Max Reger and Ferruccio Busoni. True, Schubert, Schumann and Brahms wrote the odd fugue, the odd passacaglia, I'm sure someone else will give you a list, but I wouldn't want to say that they made contrapuntal forms a "core feature of their music." Someone else can give you a list of Reger's most interesting fugues too I expect, I don't know the music. 

Busoni is particularly interesting because so much of his contrapuntal music is inspired by Bach's, and indeed quotes Bach's. You could start with the sonata contrappuntistica, I'm not so keen on his music at the moment, unfortunately. 

At the back of my mind I have the idea that these forms may figure importantly in Hindemith, but I may be misremembering.

I hope someone who knows Beethoven's music will comment on his use of counterpoint in the later music, and on his influences in that respect. Apart from op 133 that is.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

From the beginning of his career Beethoven was known as a composer in the "learned" style, meaning that he emphasized the old-fashioned arts of counterpoint. That wasn't always meant as a compliment, as some found the approach wearisome. From an early review: "[The reviewer] feels like someone who, with a genius of a friend, meant to walk through an enticing forest, yet was frequently held up by unfriendly thickets -- finally emerging on the other side exhausted and without joy. It is undeniable that Herr van Beethoven is walking along his own path! Learned, learned, ever more learned, and no nature, no song!"

If you listen to almost anything Beethoven wrote, you'll often hear two or three voices doing different things at the same time, even if not using imitation or other fugal devices. And he employed fugues or "fughettas" from the beginning - listen to the second movement, Andante, from his first symphony. You can imagine old Albrechtsberger standing over him, ready to give him a swat with the ruler if he makes a mistake in his counterpoint. He doesn't, of course.

So you don't have to wait for his late works to hear Beethoven's counterpoint!

(Added: It's interesting that the dispute between "learned" and "spontaneous" music continues in our own times, often encountered in our endless wrangles over "modernist" music.)


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> From the beginning of his career Beethoven was known as a composer in the "learned" style, meaning that he emphasized the old-fashioned arts of counterpoint. That wasn't always meant as a compliment, as some found the approach wearisome. From an early review: "[The reviewer] feels like someone who, with a genius of a friend, meant to walk through an enticing forest, yet was frequently held up by unfriendly thickets -- finally emerging on the other side exhausted and without joy. It is undeniable that Herr van Beethoven is walking along his own path! Learned, learned, ever more learned, and no nature, no song!"
> 
> If you listen to almost anything Beethoven wrote, you'll often hear two or three voices doing different things at the same time, even if not using imitation or other fugal devices. And he employed fugues or "fughettas" from the beginning - listen to the second movement, Andante, from his first symphony. You can imagine old Albrechtsberger standing over him, ready to give him a swat with the ruler if he makes a mistake in his counterpoint. He doesn't, of course.
> 
> ...


Who, according to the critics, wrote music which wasn't "learned"?


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## Andolink (Oct 29, 2012)

GradusAdParnassum said:


> Who else after Beethoven took contrapuntal forms and made them a core feature of their music, or used them to innovate in some interesting way?


Brahms was equally enamoured of and proficient in counterpoint as Beethoven and almost all of his music displays a highly expressive and subtle use of of it without being in any way dry or pedantic.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Andolink said:


> Brahms was equally enamoured of and proficient in counterpoint as Beethoven and almost all of his music displays a highly expressive and subtle use of of it without being in any way dry or pedantic.


Apart from the passacaglia in the 4th symphony and the fugue in the Händel Variations, can you give some examples which show this aspect of his music?

There's a "canonic mass", very early and if I remember right, not very interesting. But if you tell me it's good I'll dig it out and listen again. Generally I've not been very keen on early Brahms.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Who, according to the critics, wrote music which wasn't "learned"?


Rossini, maybe? His emphasis on melody was often contrasted with Beethoven's emphasis on harmony and counterpoint.


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## Bettina (Sep 29, 2016)

Andolink said:


> Brahms was equally enamoured of and proficient in counterpoint as Beethoven and almost all of his music displays a highly expressive and subtle use of of it without being in any way dry or pedantic.


Mendelssohn too. In addition to writing many fugues, he also absorbed contrapuntal styles into many of his non-fugal pieces.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Bettina said:


> Rossini, maybe? His emphasis on melody was often contrasted with Beethoven's emphasis on harmony and counterpoint.


Yes, maybe. What was at the back of my mind was that Mozart and Haydn wrote polyphonically, and I wouldn't like to say whether contrapuntal music is more present in Beethoven than in Haydn or Mozart, I don't know the music well enough. I don't know anything at all about Rossini so I won't comment.

I'm sure you're right about Mendelssohn by the way. I forgot about him.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Verdi's fugue at the end of Falstaff is pretty amazing.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Hindemith used counterpoint and fits into a modern version of this technique.

Regarding his Konzertmusik for Strings and Brass, op.50, Steven Ledbetter writes:

_The vitality of this Konzertmusik lies in its brilliant scoring and inventive use of rhythm and counterpoint. The brass section is divided into three quartets (one of trumpets, one of horns, and the third of three trombones and tuba), while the strings are laid out in four sections rather than the usual five, with all the violins grouped together, not divided into firsts and seconds. This happens to give prominence to Hindemith's beloved violas, but it also concentrates the weight of the string body (which he asks to be as large as possible) in balance with the brass. The first movement is in two parts: an opening section that combines busy, jumping phrases with a solid melodic statement, and a broader passage that features a strong unison melody in strings punctuated by irregular brass chords. The second movement opens arrestingly with three crisp chords that launch a busy fugue with a theme in the strings; the brass stamp out the three chords to mark each entry of a new voice. Following a slow middle section centering on an expressive chromatic melody first stated in violas, the fugue returns, more brilliant than ever._


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Counterpoint is a normal part of nearly every musician's education (and certainly those pursuing composition). It forms a part of all music written from before Beethoven to now. 

You can see it everywhere: Mahler, Bruckner (supposedly well-known for contrapuntal writing in his symphonies), Shostakovich. Wherever there is interplay between parts carrying melodic material, you have counterpoint.

There's nothing unusual about this.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Listening today to Brahms op 118 and op 119 played by Andrea Bonatta, I was struck by the polyphony in the music, this is something I hadn't really appreciated before. I like what I hear of Bonatta's Brahms by the way, which is emotionally restrained. He makes a distinctive sound come out of his piano, a sound which seems to suit her approach.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Has anybody mentioned the German Requiem? Plenty of good old north German counterpoint there.


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