# Mahler: Symphony no. 7



## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I think this symphony deserves it’s own thread. I will begin by copying my own short text from
another Mahler thread:

”A song of the night” is a title Mahler never knew. I am of the belief that the title has led many on a wrong path, both conductors and listeners. I am not grateful to whoever came up with the title and the idea that the symphony is a journey from dusk till dawn. It is not. The idea works against the actual music and how the music is constructed and that is BAD.

A wrong mindset leading both the interpretation of the performers and the listeners, working against the grain of the music. Seriously, should the 1st Movement be a delicate programmatic describtion of the dusk or the night, it would certainly be one the worst symphonic poem ever created.

If there needs to be a title, it should be ”A song of content days and nights”. The hero taking a few hammer blows in the previous episode has gotten to his feet again and found himself. Able to take in the bad days also.


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

I've always had a soft spot for the 7th, and often prefer it to some of the bigger works. (Like the 8th, for example.) 

I have to admit that I never really ascribed the "Song of the Night" title to this piece. My introduction to it came from the Dover score, which has this cover art:










The back cover states, "...the 7th Symphony has neither a 'program' nor a folk-song theme. It is a purely instrumental composition, both hopeful and romantic in feeling."

This description, and that image, did more to influence my interpretation of the 7th than anything else.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Well it does have two movements titled ‘Nachtmusik’, and affixed “schattenhaft” (“shadowy”) to the scherzo. maybe it’s just from tunes like Round Midnight, but the opening half diminished chord in the first movement also sounds ‘nocturnal’ to me.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Well it does have two movements titled ‘Nachtmusik’, and affixed “schattenhaft” (“shadowy”) to the scherzo. maybe it’s just from tunes like Round Midnight, but the opening half diminished chord in the first movement also sounds ‘nocturnal’ to me.


The opening chords indeed sound shadowy. Then again there are such shadowy effect throughout Mahler music and they are not enough to make the first movement’s character nocturnal as a whole.

Do you really think it could be described a Nocturne or even ”Eine Grosse Nactmusik”?


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This was the first Mahler symphony I knew - from the Bernstein/NYPO record. I played that set to death. As I got older and more knowledgeable I learned that I wasn't supposed to like it - it was the "ugly stepchild" of the symphonies. But I've always loved it for several reasons, the orchestral sounds and the beautiful harmonies. If ever there was a work made for CD, this was it and over the past 40 years of the cd era I've collected some 30 or more recordings, always hoping that someone, someday would get the Finale right. Everyone took it too slowly! It needs to move! And what do you know! In the past couple of decades, conductors have finally figured it out. Played by a great orchestra (the music is very, very difficult) for all its worth and the ending can be the most thrilling end of any Mahler symphony. Maybe it was the Kondrashin/Concertgebouw recording that made it clear, but that version just blazes along happily to the end. There's a newer one, Gabriel Feltz in Stuttgart who similarly just speeds down the road to thrilling effect. Long gone, thankfully, are the tortuous versions of Klemperer and that crowd. Solti got it right early on, but too many people dismissed his Mahler. Some one once wrote that the finale needs more "Keystone Cops" to come off, and that was a good way to put it. Of course, many people today have no idea who the Keystone Cops were. As it turns out, I was just listening to the Bernstein/Vienna version on DVD yesterday. He loved the symphony and sure played it well!


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> The opening chords indeed sound shadowy. Then again there are such shadowy effect throughout Mahler music and they are not enough to make the first movement’s character nocturnal as a whole.
> 
> Do you really think it could be described a Nocturne or even ”Eine Grosse Nactmusik”?


If he was not going for a night effect, how then do you explain Mahler using the Star Trek theme in the first movement?


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I'm going to listen to it now and maybe get back to this thread later with my fresh impressions if I feel or discover anything noteworthy and novel from my previous experiences with the work.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

mbhaub said:


> This was the first Mahler symphony I knew - from the Bernstein/NYPO record. I played that set to death. As I got older and more knowledgeable I learned that I wasn't supposed to like it - it was the "ugly stepchild" of the symphonies. But I've always loved it for several reasons, the orchestral sounds and the beautiful harmonies. If ever there was a work made for CD, this was it and over the past 40 years of the cd era I've collected some 30 or more recordings, always hoping that someone, someday would get the Finale right. Everyone took it too slowly! It needs to move! And what do you know! In the past couple of decades, conductors have finally figured it out. Played by a great orchestra (the music is very, very difficult) for all its worth and the ending can be the most thrilling end of any Mahler symphony. Maybe it was the Kondrashin/Concertgebouw recording that made it clear, but that version just blazes along happily to the end. There's a newer one, Gabriel Feltz in Stuttgart who similarly just speeds down the road to thrilling effect. Long gone, thankfully, are the tortuous versions of Klemperer and that crowd. Solti got it right early on, but too many people dismissed his Mahler. Some one once wrote that the finale needs more "Keystone Cops" to come off, and that was a good way to put it. Of course, many people today have no idea who the Keystone Cops were. As it turns out, I was just listening to the Bernstein/Vienna version on DVD yesterday. He loved the symphony and sure played it well!


I listened to the Bernstein just now to compare it to the Solti.

For me, and I emphasize the subjectivity of it, the Bernstein starts the movement too slow and jumps between fast and slow sections all the time. Whereas Solti recoginizes everything as fast before the truly slow middle section with long notes.

Bernstein seems to just find himself in the middle of the peace whereas Solti gradually builds an arch with the tempo, never losing the sight of where we are and where we are heading.

Bernstein tries to sell me the themes as though they are proper themes. I ain’t buying the themes. Whereas Solti recognizes it is the topos or the situation which needs to be sold. He makes the seconds blend into longer situations which I find musically convincing.

The orchestra is also more balanced. Solti really lets one hear the whole orchestral situation. In many places I had never really gotten the whole musical situation before the Solti version. ”Oh, there are that kind of strings back there. Oh, there is that brass countermelody, it makes sense!” -kind of revelations all the time.

Solti starts fast and gradually slows down to the middle section and then gradually builds up the tempo again. Everything is subject to this grand idea and it works.

Everyone else seems to jump from one tempo to another all the time and trying to ”sell the non-existent themes”. With the possible exception of Abbado/Chicago (whose overall sound is not as well articulative). What is it with the gorgeous Chicago orchestra?

So essentially Solti has been able to tell me how this music is supposed to work. It is a wonderful feeling although it means I really cannot enjoy other versions atm.

Any other versions like the Solti? 😉 Damn it sounds good! The whole symphony. No problems with the finale either, quite the opposite!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

A recent one from Kirill Petrenko and the Bavarian State Orchestra is terrific.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

The 90s Boulez recording with the Chicago Symphony is the gold standard for the 7th


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

Renaming works by those other than the composer is largely thought to be a marketing ploy. Money over art. Example "Titan" symphony or the "Jupiter"symphony. 

Stick it to the Man! Don't use such titles.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

"Titan" was Mahler's own title but not for the usually performed version of the symphony (it's also far more specific than many people realize as it refers to a novel by Jean Paul, not just to a titan as some mythical giant). The origin of "Song of the Night" seems mysterious and clearly postdates anything Mahler said about the piece.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

mbhaub said:


> A recent one from Kirill Petrenko and the Bavarian State Orchestra is terrific.


Have you heard the Gielen with the Baden Sym Orchestra? I think he moves it along pretty good.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

golfer72 said:


> Have you heard the Gielen with the Baden Sym Orchestra? I think he moves it along pretty good.


Couldn't agree more....!


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

golfer72 said:


> Have you heard the Gielen with the Baden Sym Orchestra? I think he moves it along pretty good.


Yes, Gielen really plays the music well; he treats it like the modern music it really is. But there's something about Gielen's conducting that is too cool and detached; not unlike Lorin Maazel. All the notes are there, it's always well played and sounds fine but I'm not convinced he believes in and loves the music. Hard to pin down.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> Yes, Gielen really plays the music well; he treats it like the modern music it really is. But there's something about Gielen's conducting that is too cool and detached; not unlike Lorin Maazel. All the notes are there, it's always well played and sounds fine but I'm not convinced he believes in and loves the music. Hard to pin down.


That's the impression I got while listening through the box set a few years ago. It sounds wonderful but fails to move me as a listener. It's been collecting dust ever since because I prefer Bernstein, Tennstedt, or even Boulez for Mahler. Although I don't have Boulez's 7th.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Just a quick note: Boulez's excellent Mahler 7 is actually with the Cleveland Orchestra, not Chicago.

I also never saw the Seventh as in any way problematic. I "grew up" with Bernstein, the older NYPO account, which I dubbed to cassette off of LPs. I bought the CD issue on DG with Bernstein and the NYPO and still like it a lot, but I've worn off of Bernstein in a lot of repertoire, including Mahler.

Those I turn to most often these days are are Abbado/Berlin which I unapologetically prefer to the older one with the CSO (although I own both), Fischer/BudapestFO, and Jansons/BRSO. I also really like the old Kubelík/BRSO, which in my opinion is quite underrated.


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## OCEANE (10 mo ago)

Knorf said:


> Just a quick note: Boulez's excellent Mahler 7 is actually with the Cleveland Orchestra, not Chicago.
> 
> I also never saw the Seventh as in any problematic. I "grew up" with Bernstein, the older NYPO account, which I dubbed to cassette off of LPs. I bought the CD issue on DG with Bernstein and the NYPO and still like it a lot, but I've worn off of Bernstein in a lot of repertoire, including Mahler.
> 
> Those I turn to most often these days are are Abbado/Berlin which I unapologetically prefer to the older one with the CSO (although I own both), Fischer/BudapestFO, and Jansons/BRSO. I also really like the old Kubelík/BRSO, which in my opinion is quite underrated.


Thanks for sharing.
About Bernstein, to my experience, when it comes to Mahler symphonies, Bernstein is always top on the recommendation list. I've listened to his recordings but I'm not moved as much as by other conductors like Bertini, Chailly, Fischer, Honeck, etc. I think this could be one of the many beauties of music that is everyone has own feeling and taste.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Knorf said:


> I also never saw the Seventh as in any problematic.


In short, my problem with the 7th was that there really are no high profile themes (melodies or motifs) like in the 5th and the 6th. Nevertheless conductors have been trying to sell the non-existing themes. Also many have tried to play the 1st Movement as some slowish mysterious impressionistic Nocturne which moves from one nocturnal impression to another. It is not.

The solutions to both problems for me has been Solti. Solti sells packages of orchestral textures, harmonies and gestures — instead of themes. He also totally abandons the Nocturne approach to the 1st Movement. He also has a clear tempo map and does not jump from one tempo to another (in search for nocturnal impressions) to the lenght of other conductors.

(Also, the Solti approach results in the symphony NOT sounding like yet another Star Wars Armies Marching Forever! I get no marching from Solti, at all. Why Mahler is always conducted like a funeral march?)


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> There's a newer one, Gabriel Feltz in Stuttgart who similarly just speeds down the road to thrilling effect.


I finally took a listen to this one, and I have to thank you for the recommendation. You're right - the 5th movement has the right ebb and flow to it...I could even hear the Keystone Cops vibe. 

My other thought during the Finale is how much it sounded like Ives...in a good way.

Overall, I had forgotten how the Scherzo has that half awake, half asleep feel to it...like that liminal state between being awake and drifting off...where you start dreaming before you're fully asleep. Absolutely love it. Very surreal.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Just a quick note: Boulez's excellent Mahler 7 is actually with the Cleveland Orchestra, not Chicago.
> 
> I also never saw the Seventh as in any way problematic. I "grew up" with Bernstein, the older NYPO account, which I dubbed to cassette off of LPs. I bought the CD issue on DG with Bernstein and the NYPO and still like it a lot, but I've worn off of Bernstein in a lot of repertoire, including Mahler.
> 
> Those I turn to most often these days are are Abbado/Berlin which I unapologetically prefer to the older one with the CSO (although I own both), Fischer/BudapestFO, and Jansons/BRSO. I also really like the old Kubelík/BRSO, which in my opinion is quite underrated.


Ive also never seen the 7th as problematic in any way (unless its being dragged along at a snail's pace and poorly played by Klempy and co). I'll second Knorf's recommendation of the Fischer / Budapest recording.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Merl said:


> Ive also never seen the 7th as problematic in any way (unless its being dragged along at a snail's pace and poorly played by Klempy and co). I'll second Knorf's recommendation of the Fischer / Budapest recording.


Maybe it really is a subjective thing. But for me there is nothing worse in a composition than the feeling that the composer doesn’t know what they are doing, that the composer considers everything out of their pen as perfect, and just goes on and on, babbling, and jumps from one situation to another with their mediocre material.

From the slow and unfocused nocturnal interpretation of the first movement I get exactly the vibes that speak to me loud: oh, this is just lazy and mediocre music, born out of too high self-esteem and lack of self-critique.

But it seems now, in hindsight, that most of my problems with Mahler are indeed problems with conductors. More than with any other composer. Then again Mahler must have known the challenges of his music for conductors.

In the end, The Emperor’s New Clothes applies to the conductors, not Mahler. Many conductors have been just so very lazy with Mahler and taken what I refer to as the Star Wars / Movie Soundtrack Approach. So I do not thank everything the generation which found and popularized Mahler, have done. It will take decades to rid ourselves of the Movie Soundtrack Approach.

There must be someone on this forum who gets what I am saying.


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## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

The most memorable symphonic performance I've ever attended was with Haitink and the Concertgebouw, in 1982. The piece was Mahler's Seventh.

This concert was an impossible dream. The Mahler was the only work on the program, and it was delivered with such high standards of interpretation and execution that nothing I've witnessed live from Berlin, Vienna or any other orchestra has matched it.

If you can find his Philips digital recording of M7 with the RCO ca. 1983, pick it up.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

LKB said:


> The most memorable symphonic performance I've ever attended was with Haitink and the Concertgebouw, in 1982. The piece was Mahler's Seventh.
> 
> This concert was an impossible dream. The Mahler was the only work on the program, and it was delivered with such high standards of interpretation and execution that nothing I've witnessed live from Berlin, Vienna or any other orchestra has matched it.
> 
> If you can find his Philips digital recording of M7 with the RCO ca. 1983, pick it up.


That is available on iTunes. I just wonder if it is better than Chailly. Which is the 2nd best after Solti imo of the records I have now.


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## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> That is available on iTunes. I just wonder if it is better than Chailly. Which is the 2nd best after Solti imo of the records I have now.


Just make sure it's:









Gustav Mahler, Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam - Mahler: Symphony 7 - Amazon.com Music


Gustav Mahler, Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam - Mahler: Symphony 7 - Amazon.com Music



www.amazon.com





... and not his older recording.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

LKB said:


> Just make sure it's:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually got myself precisely that! Haitink has always been one of the most convincing conductors. Sounds good so far. Not nocturno but no formula one either. Thanks for the recommendation!


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Waehnen said:


> Maybe it really is a subjective thing. But for me there is nothing worse in a composition than the feeling that the composer doesn’t know what they are doing, that the composer considers everything out of their pen as perfect, and just goes on and on, babbling, and jumps from one situation to another with their mediocre material.
> 
> From the slow and unfocused nocturnal interpretation of the first movement I get exactly the vibes that speak to me loud: oh, this is just lazy and mediocre music, born out of too high self-esteem and lack of self-critique.
> 
> ...


Doubtful.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

LKB said:


> Just make sure it's:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's also Haitink's live "Christmas Matinee" recording, made a couple of years later, also with the CGO. I think it has that little bit more extra tension compared to the studio recording. I think it's also better recorded (early digital Philips was definitely inferior to the late 70's analogue years).
It comes in a 9 cd box with live recordings of symphonies 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9 and 2 song cycles. Don't know about the avialability, but I generally prefer these performances to the earlier studio versions.
The 3rd in this box is one of the all time greats.
You can check out these performances at youtube, look for "Haitink kerstmatinee".


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## LKB (Jul 27, 2021)

I've been watching those uploads for the last year or so, and I'd agree they're special. At the risk of possibly repeating myself, Haitink's M2 from the 1984 Kerstmatinee is, l think, extraordinary. Those under the impression of Haitink being dour, plodding or boring should watch the last few minutes of that concert, his conducting is incandescent.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Any Mahlerian should also seriously try to check out the 'Mahler Feest' 1995 limited edition box issued by Netherlands Radio (pics below). Its rare as hen's teeth these days, and will set you back well into 3 figures for the box, but contains some fabulous recordings. I don't care for Mahler's 3rd, much, but the Haitink recording off that set is one of the few I can tolerate. If you do some scratching around on the Internet there are 'bootlegs' (ahem) of these available. Obviously I would never encourage anyone to do anything shady to get hold of these ridiculously rare recordings. ⛵


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Guess I have to get the acclaimed Haitink/Mahler 3! Even if so far nothing has suprassed my gorgeous Bernstein/New York when it comes to the 3rd.

This Haitink version of the 7th is the most balanced, mature and ”musical” I have heard so far. Not as much energy as in the Solti but in other aspects it is better. Really enjoyable I must say.


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

I'm not sure what exactly is meant by the "Star Wars approach"; I remember you mentioning it on a different thread a while ago and I suggested Sinopoli's recording, to which you responded positively. I'm starting to think you're just warming up to the symphony more! It took me a while to get it but now it's among my favorites of Mahler. The symphony is chock-full of Mahlerian dark irony and ambiguity. The first movement is punctuated by a marchlike rhythm from the very start; I disagree that emphasizing this aspect is a negative, but it's ultimately an artistic decision and to each their own. The Fifth and Sixth both have very important march rhythms, so it seems to me like the reason that Mahler is often conducted like a funeral march has a lot to do with Mahler's own music! Including a march in the Seventh seems reasonable to me. I also don't quite get what you mean by nocturne-like; this seems a far cry from Chopin to me. Nocturnal (rather than nocturne-like) I can see, though this is an extramusical association and one that could be argued either way. I'm intrigued by the praise here for Haitink and Solti; I will have to check these recordings out.

I once saw (can't remember where) the Scherzo described as having a similarity to being outside of a building at night where a party is being held, and seeing only the silhouettes or shadows of dancers and partygoers inside flickering back and forth, without being able to see them or hear what is going on. Quite a poignant motif for a Scherzo marked "Schattenhaft."

I haven't ever gotten to see this symphony live, and I wish it were programmed more often! Mahler's music is important and needs to be heard.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Monsalvat said:


> I'm not sure what exactly is meant by the "Star Wars approach"; I remember you mentioning it on a different thread a while ago and I suggested Sinopoli's recording, to which you responded positively. I'm starting to think you're just warming up to the symphony more! It took me a while to get it but now it's among my favorites of Mahler. The symphony is chock-full of Mahlerian dark irony and ambiguity. The first movement is punctuated by a marchlike rhythm from the very start; I disagree that emphasizing this aspect is a negative, but it's ultimately an artistic decision and to each their own. The Fifth and Sixth both have very important march rhythms, so it seems to me like the reason that Mahler is often conducted like a funeral march has a lot to do with Mahler's own music! Including a march in the Seventh seems reasonable to me. I also don't quite get what you mean by nocturne-like; this seems a far cry from Chopin to me. Nocturnal (rather than nocturne-like) I can see, though this is an extramusical association and one that could be argued either way. I'm intrigued by the praise here for Haitink and Solti; I will have to check these recordings out.
> 
> I once saw (can't remember where) the Scherzo described as having a similarity to being outside of a building at night where a party is being held, and seeing only the silhouettes or shadows of dancers and partygoers inside flickering back and forth, without being able to see them or hear what is going on. Quite a poignant motif for a Scherzo marked "Schattenhaft."
> 
> I haven't ever gotten to see this symphony live, and I wish it were programmed more often! Mahler's music is important and needs to be heard.


There is no point in me repeating these experiences with the 7th Symphony and its recordings any further. Read my brief comparison of the Bernstein and Solti versions. It truly is a genuine negative feeling that most versions of the 7th give me. I will stick to Solti and Haitink now because so far they are the only ones that do not irritate me at all.

The 5th and the 6th have stronger themes than the 7th. The 7th is ”music without themes”. Solti and Haitink realize this and so they conduct the 7th differently, communicating ”musical situation packages” instead. It communicates.

It is strange that for example Bernstein is absolutely perfect in the 3rd yet completely loses the 7th (in my ears). When the conductor doesn’t know what to do with a Mahler symphony, it usually results in the Movie Soundtrack Approach which just hops from one situation to another.

For me there is not a single conductor who does well in all Mahler Symphonies.

Please compare the 1st Movement of the 6th by Barbirolli and Rattle/Berlin. Barbirolli is extra heavy (I just cannot cope the military marching), Rattle is the version for me.

Mahler is heavy enough "an sich". You do not need to emphasize the heavyness, quite the opposite, please make it lighter. You do not need to "dwell on emotional details" at the expense of moving forward and seeing the forest from the trees. Most importantly, please try to see the significance of all passages and how they link to each other rather than just marching through: "This is just some Mahler stuff, dunno what it is. So let´s just march and then hop forward to the next situation."

(I still do not believe I am the only one thinking this way.)


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## Monsalvat (11 mo ago)

Waehnen said:


> There is no point in me repeating these experiences with the 7th Symphony and its recordings any further. Read my brief comparison of the Bernstein and Solti versions. It truly is a genuine negative feeling that most versions of the 7th give me. I will stick to Solti and Haitink now because so far they are the only ones that do not irritate me at all.
> 
> The 5th and the 6th have stronger themes than the 7th. The 7th is ”music without themes”. Solti and Haitink realize this and so they conduct the 7th differently, communicating ”musical situation packages” instead. It communicates.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't disagree that there isn't a single conductor who performs well in all of the symphonies, although to be fair I haven't listened to an integral Mahler cycle in several years. (It was Abbado's, so not really a cycle, and he tended to do well from my recollections.) Of course there are commercial reasons for doing a cycle; people will want to buy boxed sets and things like that, but it doesn't always follow that this best serves Mahler!

I'm familiar with Barbirolli's Sixth but it's been a while since I've heard Rattle's. I think of Kubelík's Sixth as being much lighter, while Barbirolli's is about as heavy (perhaps ponderous is a better adjective) as it gets, so perhaps Kubelík is more in line with your preferences. I'm also not surprised that Haitink would fit with this vision of Mahler, but I am a bit surprised by Solti, so I'm going to have to listen to that one. I think I understand now what you meant by "Star Wars" when you said "the Movie Soundtrack Approach which just hops from one situation to another": an effective Mahler conductor needs to learn from Wagner the art of transition. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Mahler's Seventh lacks themes, but I would agree that the themes are far more subtle that in the Fifth and Sixth symphonies.

Reading your Post No. 8, it seems that Solti is more effective at blending the orchestra into a soundmass while Bernstein prefers to pick out particular melodies or themes. I will report back once I have listened to Solti. I listened to Bernstein's 1965 Mahler Seventh yesterday (for Sony, not DG) but not with this thread in mind and not as a comparative exercise.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Monsalvat said:


> I wouldn't disagree that there isn't a single conductor who performs well in all of the symphonies, although to be fair I haven't listened to an integral Mahler cycle in several years. (It was Abbado's, so not really a cycle, and he tended to do well from my recollections.) Of course there are commercial reasons for doing a cycle; people will want to buy boxed sets and things like that, but it doesn't always follow that this best serves Mahler!
> 
> I'm familiar with Barbirolli's Sixth but it's been a while since I've heard Rattle's. I think of Kubelík's Sixth as being much lighter, while Barbirolli's is about as heavy (perhaps ponderous is a better adjective) as it gets, so perhaps Kubelík is more in line with your preferences. I'm also not surprised that Haitink would fit with this vision of Mahler, but I am a bit surprised by Solti, so I'm going to have to listen to that one. I think I understand now what you meant by "Star Wars" when you said "the Movie Soundtrack Approach which just hops from one situation to another": an effective Mahler conductor needs to learn from Wagner the art of transition. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Mahler's Seventh lacks themes, but I would agree that the themes are far more subtle that in the Fifth and Sixth symphonies.
> 
> Reading your Post No. 8, it seems that Solti is more effective at blending the orchestra into a soundmass while Bernstein prefers to pick out particular melodies or themes. I will report back once I have listened to Solti. I listened to Bernstein's 1965 Mahler Seventh yesterday (for Sony, not DG) but not with this thread in mind and not as a comparative exercise.


I am very happy that you appear to see at least SOME point in my utterances. No need to agree on everything! Many thanks to Merl as well for the like!


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Regarding the Barbirolli 6th, there are 2 recordings out there, the commonly heard studio recording and a live Proms performance available on Testament which was made a couple of days before the studio recording. Whereas the studio performance is rather ponderous in the 1st movement, the live performance is much less so in that it starts the same way but quickly picks up the tempo (timings: 21'21" vs 19'08")


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

BTW, got myself also Rattle/Berlin version of the 7th. Listened to it today whilst having a long walk along the river bank. This definitely makes the top 3 with Solti and Haitink.

Now I have 3 versions that I enjoy. So no need fo complain anymore, really! ☺


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

I will say all this discussion about Mahler 7 has prompted me to reacquaint myself with it. I like it more and more as I get to know it. And I like the themes too


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> I will say all this discussion about Mahler 7 has prompted me to reacquaint myself with it. I like it more and more as I get to know it. And I like the themes too


At this moment I am amazed at the skills of Haitink. I mean, Solti uses his V12 turbo engine to the maximum, but Haitink somehow manages to conduct the 1st Movement without me feeling bored/frustrated/irritated even once, and to do this without a turbo engine, but with a breathing tempo of his choosing. I cannot fathom this.

I was occasionally bored even with the Rattle version, as colourful as it is.

Edit: The 3rd by Haitink (Bavarian) is also unbelievably magnificent.


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## prlj (10 mo ago)

golfer72 said:


> I will say all this discussion about Mahler 7 has prompted me to reacquaint myself with it. I like it more and more as I get to know it. And I like the themes too


I did the same! It's been stuck in my head now for a week. Feltz, Petrenko, and Solti to start. A few more on tap for this week...


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

I am going to be brave and bold today and give another go at the quite special Klemperer take on the 7th Symphony. Wish me strength! 

Edit: My qualities as a human being did not allow me to continue with this formidable task further than a few minutes into the first movement. I do not possess the strength! Otto had his right for this Grand Vision and luckily I have my right to avoid it.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

Waehnen said:


> I am going to be brave and bold today and give another go at the quite special Klemperer take on the 7th Symphony. Wish me strength!


Be sure to check your heartbeat once in a while when you're listening to it


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## Tarneem (Jan 3, 2022)

LKB said:


> The most memorable symphonic performance I've ever attended was with Haitink and the Concertgebouw, in 1982. The piece was Mahler's Seventh.
> 
> This concert was an impossible dream. The Mahler was the only work on the program, and it was delivered with such high standards of interpretation and execution that nothing I've witnessed live from Berlin, Vienna or any other orchestra has matched it.
> 
> If you can find his Philips digital recording of M7 with the RCO ca. 1983, pick it up.



Yeah I also prefer Haitink.. he NAILS the 2nd movement. 

But actually the best experience i had with the symphony is when I listened yo it live performed by the Malaysian Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by the great fabio luisi


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

prlj said:


> I did the same! It's been stuck in my head now for a week. Feltz, Petrenko, and Solti to start. A few more on tap for this week...


I have the Gielen 7 with the Baden Symphony Orch. I never get multiple interpretations of works so i guess I am odd in that respect. The rest of my Mahler collection is the Inbal cycle on Denon


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## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I never really warmed to the 7th until I heard the Klemperer. Now it’s my favorite Mahler symphony after the 9th. So rich and colorful.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> I have the Gielen 7 with the Baden Symphony Orch. I never get multiple interpretations of works so i guess I am odd in that respect. The rest of my Mahler collection is the Inbal cycle on Denon


So it could be that you have never even heard awful versions of the 7th and have no idea what my problem with the work has been?

Gielen for sure does not do the ”Movie Soundtrack Approach” at all.


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Waehnen said:


> So it could be that you have never even heard awful versions of the 7th and have no idea what my problem with the work has been?
> 
> Gielen for sure does not do the ”Movie Soundtrack Approach” at all.


Actually good point. Possible I guess. Have you listened to any of the Inbal cycle on Denon?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I find all this talk of ”Movie Soundtrack Approach” to be rather silly given that Mahler wrote it long before there were any movie soundtracks, i.e. applying contemporary ideas to something that significantly predated them.

Hmm, perhaps one should complain about movie soundtracks taking too much of a "Mahler Approach"


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

Becca said:


> I find all this talk of ”Movie Soundtrack Approach” to be rather silly given that Mahler wrote it long before there were any movie soundtracks, i.e. applying contemporary ideas to something that significantly predated them.
> 
> Hmm, perhaps one should complain about movie soundtracks taking too much of a "Mahler Approach"


Of course Mahler does not compose in a movie soundtrack approach. What I have meant is that many conductors do conduct Mahler with a movie soundtrack approach, especially when they do not know what else to do with the enormously challenging music that just goes on and on from one situation to another.

I admit there was a time when I thought the movie soundtrack approach in the way people listen to the music was somehow naturally born out of the episodic 7th Symphony itself. At the time I was trying hard to grasp what people saw in the symphony. So I thought desperately: maybe they listen to it like it’s movie music?

I was wrong. Take the Haitink version for example, and there is nothing of a movie soundtrack approach in any of it and you do not need to listen to it in an anyway ”cinematic mode” to understand it. So it would be wrong to suggest people are drawn to something cinematic about the interpretation of the 7th Symphony.

Because there are a lot of the ”movie soundtrack approach conducted versions” of the symphonies, I still think it is _possible _that_ some_ are drawn to the cinematic way Mahler is presented. I think they could do some research and write a thesis on this. ”Mahler conducting, interpretation and reception in relation to orchestral preferences and cinematic music since 1950´s.”

(I have a recording of Charles Gerhardt conducting Sibelius with the London Symphony Orchestra. That recording applies the movie soundtrack approach for sure, too. So Mahler is not the only composer associated with this approach.)

Never have I suggested that Mahler music in itself was somehow profoundly cinematic, at least I do not remember thinking that way. If I have said something in that direction, at the time the conducting has messed up with my thoughts. The conducting surely did initially mess up my whole journey with Mahler. I was totally lost in the beginning. I have talked about this A LOT on this forum.

It must be hard to keep up with my processess, ideas and opinions and statements which are in constant motion. I understand.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

golfer72 said:


> Actually good point. Possible I guess. Have you listened to any of the Inbal cycle on Denon?


Inbal is definitely an underrated conductor in Mahler, his cycle is uniformly excellent.
He was an underrated conductor in everything, I think. No-one ever mentions his complete orchestral Berlioz recordings, which is a shame because some of the performances there are on the level of Munch or Davis. Or his Bruckner, which introduced first versions of every symphony even before Tintner (not that I care about those first versions, but I think he did a better job than Tintner overall).


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## golfer72 (Jan 27, 2018)

Interesting. Im not that big on Berlioz or Bruckner but good to hear just the same. The sound quality on the Denon Mahler cycle is great as well.


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## Ulrich (5 mo ago)

Mahler ist often quoted (wether truthfully or not I cannot say) to having said: „to hell with all programs“. Still he often ended up writing music that is suitable to ascribe a progam or a theme to (personal tragedy to the 6th, farewell for to 9th, and so on). That being said, I think the 7th is probably Mahler’s best attempt at writing pure music without a program.

As for recordings, the one I still enjoy the most is Bernstein with the NYPO on Sony. I also like Kubelik’s approach with the Bavarian forces on DG. I will definitely look into some of the suggestions that have been made here.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

If you really want to explore the 7th, there's one conductor who you just cannot ignore: Hermann Scherchen. None of his extant recordings had the luxury of a great orchestra or really top-notch sound. But Scherchen loved the symphony and performed it often. Somewhere I read that he was at the Prague premiere of it, but he would have been only 16 or so and I've never been able to confirm that story. He certainly took to the work which at that time was very harmonically advanced. There are several recordings of his available; the two I would try to hear are with the Toronto Symphony and then the older with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra. If nothing else, it will demonstrate why the Bernstein/NYPO recording was such a sensation. Of the same vintage is the Rosbaud recording which is very gloomy if you're into that.


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## Ulrich (5 mo ago)

mbhaub said:


> If you really want to explore the 7th, there's one conductor who you just cannot ignore: Hermann Scherchen. None of his extant recordings had the luxury of a great orchestra or really top-notch sound. But Scherchen loved the symphony and performed it often. Somewhere I read that he was at the Prague premiere of it, but he would have been only 16 or so and I've never been able to confirm that story. He certainly took to the work which at that time was very harmonically advanced. There are several recordings of his available; the two I would try to hear are with the Toronto Symphony and then the older with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra. If nothing else, it will demonstrate why the Bernstein/NYPO recording was such a sensation. Of the same vintage is the Rosbaud recording which is very gloomy if you're into that.


The thing is, I‘m a bit picky when it comes to sound quality. That’s my main problem with the likes of Scherchen or Horenstein, who have certainly been great Mahler interpreters, but I simply can’t abide by the bad sound. I know I‘m missing out on some fine performances (not just with Mahler), but that’s just the way it is.
As for Rosbaud, I really like his Mahler and the sound is mostly adequate too.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

What's the problem with the majority of the Horenstein/Mahler recordings (1,3,4,6) as they are in very acceptable stereo sound?


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## Ulrich (5 mo ago)

Becca said:


> What's the problem with the majority of the Horenstein/Mahler recordings (1,3,4,6) as they are in very acceptable stereo sound?


It‘s not about the stereo. I have certainly not heard all of Horenstein‘s Mahler recordings, but all that I did listen to where sort of „scratchy“ (I don’t know how to put it) or had some clearly audible background noise. Nothing major. But like I said, I‘m picky when it comes to this. I can’t even enjoy Kna‘s 1962 Parsifal on the same grounds.


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## Waehnen (Oct 31, 2021)

This is ridiculous but with the Solti and Haitink versions the 7th is now maybe my favourite Mahler symphony. I find myself listening to it every day. It is so unique in the handling of the material. None of the movements are one-dimensional, and there is depth to everything. Even the finale with which I have absolutely no problems whatsoever.

I have a Mahler biography by Fischer and there it is stated quite often that Mahler referred to this symphony as a bright and positive symphony. It is peculiar that this "Song of the Night" -approach has been so formidable even though it is obviously against the intentions of the composer. But people seem to like stories even if it messes up the actual music.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Anyone who still has a problem with the 7th needs to get online or to a streaming service connected to a home theater system and check out today's opening concert of the Berlin Philharmonic with Petrenko playing only the symphony on their concert. They played the daylights out of it - nearly flawless. It was the conductor who brought it to life - this was energetic, snappy, thrilling. The very end was more jubilant than I've ever heard it. Petrenko's Munich recording was superb; this was even better. The two Nachtmusik movements moved along quicker than usual, but not rushed. And Petrenko's face radiated a sense of joy and beauty that reflected in the music making. No grim, serious, dour conducting here. It was marvelous. At some point he's going to have a complete Mahler cycle recorded with Berlin - it will be something remarkable.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

For those lucky enough to be in London early in September, Petrenko and the BPO will be doing the Mahler 7th at the Proms.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Becca said:


> For those lucky enough to be in London early in September, Petrenko and the BPO will be doing the Mahler 7th at the Proms.


I'm seriously envious of this.


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