# Bach Musical Offering Recommendations



## classical yorkist

I have a tiny obsession with this work and want to buy some versions but need guidance, HIP preferred.


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## JSBach85

classical yorkist said:


> I have a tiny obsession with this work and want to buy some versions but need guidance, HIP preferred.


I would strongly recommend Musica Antiqua Koln:










Perhaps you may find more accurate recordings on period instruments, but this one has great/skilled musicians and a lively conducting. Also, Goebel uses a small ensemble (6 musicians), not a big deal considering some parts were written in open score. Personally, I rather prefer small ensembles for works of this nature.


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## Ekim the Insubordinate

Jordi Savall with Le Concert des Nations


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## Triplets

I can attest for the Savall...MAK would be worth a hearing, no doubt


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I have a tiny obsession with this work and want to buy some versions but need guidance, HIP preferred.


*Top tier*

Linde Consort
Leonhartdt
Masahiro Arita and Ryo Terakado 
Mersori on Brilliant

*Exceptional but somehow not quite as special as the above for me, maybe for no good reason*

Savall with Hantai
Kuijken bros. & R. Kohnen
Sonnerie
Meno van Delft
Harnoncourt

*Very good but not my cup of tea*

Ricercar Consort

*Don't like much any more*

Koopman
Goebel
Dantone

And then there's Gerd Zacher, which is a bit of an enigma.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> *Top tier*
> 
> Linde Consort
> Leonhartdt
> Masahiro Arita and Ryo Terakado
> Mersori on Brilliant
> 
> *Exceptional but somehow not quite as special as the above for me, maybe for no good reason*
> 
> Savall with Hantai
> Kuijken bros. & R. Kohnen
> Sonnerie
> Meno van Delft
> Harnoncourt
> 
> *Very good but not my cup of tea*
> 
> Ricercar Consort
> 
> *Don't like much any more*
> 
> Koopman
> Goebel
> Dantone
> 
> And then there's Gerd Zacher, which is a bit of an enigma.


This is precisely how I would estimate the recordings in question (with two exceptions).

The Sonnerie recording is IMO too special, and I would put it together with the Ricercare Consort recording.

Secondly I do not know the Dantone recording.

But there are several other HIP recordings of this work. I am particularly fond of these:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7951831--js-bach-musical-offering-canons

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8009173--js-bach-a-musical-offering


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## classical yorkist

Fascinating reading, a few of those I have on my shortlist. I think I'll get the Messori set on Brilliant and I'm very tempted by the Savall. The Sonnerie is extremely expensive on Amazon £419! MAK also looks good. Lots to go on there for an incredible work of art by Bach the master.


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## Josquin13

Most recently, I've especially enjoyed Concerto Melante on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi, & would recommend it as one of my top choices among period recordings:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8031837--bach-j-s-musical-offering-bwv1079

In the past, I've most liked the Linde Consort's recording, which was my first Musical Offering on LP. I also recall Musica Antiqua Koln and Sonnerie are good too, but haven't heard either recording in a while. Like Mandryka, I've cooled a bit on Ton Koopman's recording on Challenge classics.

I've read strong reviews for the Hanssler recording, but haven't heard it yet. Another group that is excellent in this repertory is Florilegium, but I'm not sure if they've done a Musical Offering.


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## Mandryka

premont said:


> This is precisely how I would estimate the recordings in question (with two exceptions).
> 
> The Sonnerie recording is IMO too special, and I would put it together with the Ricercare Consort recording.
> 
> Secondly I do not know the Dantone recording.
> 
> But there are several other HIP recordings of this work. I am particularly fond of these:
> 
> https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7951831--js-bach-musical-offering-canons
> 
> https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8009173--js-bach-a-musical-offering


I hadn't seen the one from Aston Magna before and I agree it sounds good on spotify, John Gibbons is playing the piano, I've never come across him before. I see he played Mozart concertos with Bruggen, and the K491 sounds pretty good to me here


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> I think I'll get the Messori set on Brilliant


Don't hesitate to get it if it comes with Art of Fugue.


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## Biffo

I suppose my view of the work is strongly influenced by the first recording I ever bought many years ago, a DG Archiv LP from an ensemble led by Karl Richter and dating from 1963. I have never done a comparative listening with the two other versions I own - Linde Consort and MAK/Goebel. I would second the recommendation of the Linde Consort as it comes with my favourite set of the Brandenburgs. MAK/Goebel has the coupling of The Art of Fugue. I think both are fine performances of the Musical Offering so it depends which coupling you want and if you favout either ensemble.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> I hadn't seen the one from Aston Magna before and I agree it sounds good on spotify, John Gibbons is playing the piano, I've never come across him before. I see he played Mozart concertos with Bruggen, and the K491 sounds pretty good to me here


His discography is relatively small, most of it is participation in PI groups and a few MI groups. F.i. he plays harpsichord on Parrott's BWV 1044 and on Chamber Music Society of Lincoln Center's Brandenburgs. I think he is an eloquent musician.


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## Josquin13

Interestingly, Reinhard Goebel was planning to re-record The Musical Offering with Musica Antiqua Köln when they disbanded (due to Goebel's physical issues). Evidently, he wasn't satisfied with the older MAK recording. All of Goebel's new research into the score was then subsequently redirected towards assisting his former MAK musicians that had now formed Concerto Melante in their new recording of the work. You can find more information on Goebel and his connection to Concerto Melante & their recording of The Musical Offering here:

http://www.melante.de/assets/bach_musikalisches_opfer.pdf

Another recent recording that has received strong praise (from the Early Music Review) is this CD from The Bach Players:

https://www.amazon.com/Musical-Offe...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1512754586&sr=1-8

I've listened to it only once, but preferred Concerto Melante (which I had bought around the same time). However, others have disagreed with me, so maybe I need to give it another chance. Here's the review:

http://earlymusicreview.com/musical-offering/


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## premont

Josquin13 said:


> Interestingly, Reinhard Goebel was planning to re-record The Musical Offering with Musica Antiqua Köln when they disbanded (due to Goebel's physical issues). Evidently, he wasn't satisfied with the older MAK recording. All of Goebel's new research into the score was then subsequently redirected towards assisting his former MAK musicians that had now formed Concerto Melante in their new recording of the work. You can find more information on Goebel and his connection to Concerto Melante & their recording of The Musical Offering here:
> 
> http://www.melante.de/assets/bach_musikalisches_opfer.pdf
> 
> Another recent recording that has received strong praise (from the Early Music Review) is this CD from The Bach Players:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Musical-Offe...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1512754586&sr=1-8
> 
> I've listened to it only once, but preferred Concerto Melante (which I had bought around the same time). However, others have disagreed with me, so maybe I need to give it another chance. Here's the review:
> 
> http://earlymusicreview.com/musical-offering/


I can't say, that I find The Bach Players' version that interesting.

The latest I have got hold of (but not yet listened to) is Masaaki Suziki's on BIS.


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## Josquin13

Premont writes, "I can't say, that I find The Bach Players' version that interesting."

I agree, but as I said, I've only listened to it once, so I didn't want to state too negative an opinion (& later find that it had merits I missed the first time around).


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## Bulldog

My favorite comes from the Ensemble Sonnerie; I love the variety of instrumentation.


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## Josquin13

One more thought--If you decide to purchase Musica Antiqua Köln's version, I'd recommend buying the AMSI (Ambient surround sound imaging) remaster. I've found that AMSI makes a significant difference to the sound quality of older analogue recordings, and MAK's recording was made in 1979, so it's ADD (1979!! Goodness, I hadn't realized it was that old, no wonder Goebel planned on re-recording the music):

https://www.amazon.com/Musik-Opfer-...rd_wg=Ftssa&psc=1&refRID=8DN04Y867484CNYYNNFQ


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## Mandryka

Josquin13 said:


> Interestingly, Reinhard Goebel was planning to re-record The Musical Offering with Musica Antiqua Köln when they disbanded (due to Goebel's physical issues). Evidently, he wasn't satisfied with the older MAK recording. All of Goebel's new research into the score was then subsequently redirected towards assisting his former MAK musicians that had now formed Concerto Melante in their new recording of the work. You can find more information on Goebel and his connection to Concerto Melante & their recording of The Musical Offering here:
> 
> http://www.melante.de/assets/bach_musikalisches_opfer.pdf
> 
> Another recent recording that has received strong praise (from the Early Music Review) is this CD from The Bach Players:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Musical-Offe...swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1512754586&sr=1-8
> 
> I've listened to it only once, but preferred Concerto Melante (which I had bought around the same time). However, others have disagreed with me, so maybe I need to give it another chance. Here's the review:
> 
> http://earlymusicreview.com/musical-offering/


I haven't heard the one from The Bach Players, but in that review I was struck by this (my emphasis)



> Silas Wollston, the group's harpsichordist, whose excellent essay in the booklet Bach the orator is a model for what research and performance practice can create, and I doubt if it could be bettered. He convincingly summarises Ursula Kirkendale's thesis that the rhetorical basis for the order of the movements is to be found in Quintilian's Institutio oratoria, a*nd displays how this works in practice.
> *


I wonder what he's getting at by "displays how this works in practice" -- just a claim about the order of the pieces? Or something about the "meaning" of each piece and the whole? Do they make it sound like an argument, with an idea introduced, developed, recalled, eloquently summarised at the end . . .?

If I remember right the work was originally presented in several different "books", numbered, ie with an order. And some of the canons are puzzles, I don't know how unusual it was to present music as a puzzle, or a single work in several short volumes, and I don't know if that has any implications for how it should be played. (I recall Gerd Zacher thought the puzzle canons should end with a feeling of questioning . . . as if you were looking to see if you'd solved it correctly . . . )

Giving a king a gift of puzzles to solve says something about JSB's personality I think.

Anyway we are at least sure that this work is intended for performance _in toto_, just because Bach had it performed like that. Which may not be the case for the augmented versions of AoF.


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## Bulldog

Josquin13 said:


> Another group that is excellent in this repertory is Florilegium, but I'm not sure if they've done a Musical Offering.


Partial. The group has a 2000 disc where they perform the Ricercar A 6 and trio sonata - Channel Classics 14598. It might be deleted already.


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## philoctetes

I heard the Kuijkens play this on a rainy Sunday afternoon at Hertz Hall. They proved they can play it while they sleep, and sedate the audience as well. Longest delay between last note and first clap ever, fortuately nobody snored...

They are a good choice on CD but Savall may be better. Don't know the MAK.


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## premont

Bulldog said:


> My favorite comes from the Ensemble Sonnerie; I love the variety of instrumentation.


It is precisely the variety of instrumentation I find too special. The many instrumental colors tend to attract the attention at the expense of the music. Each to his own.


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## premont

Josquin13 said:


> Premont writes, "I can't say, that I find The Bach Players' version that interesting."
> 
> I agree, but as I said, I've only listened to it once, so I didn't want to state too negative an opinion (& later find that it had merits I missed the first time around).


I too have only listened to it once, and I did not feel much motivation to listen to it again. But of course I shall do so at some point.


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## premont

Mandryka said:


> I haven't heard the one from The Bach Players, but in that review I was struck by this (my emphasis)
> 
> I wonder what he's getting at by "displays how this works in practice" -- just a claim about the order of the pieces? Or something about the "meaning" of each piece and the whole? Do they make it sound like an argument, with an idea introduced, developed, recalled, eloquently summarised at the end . . .?


He compares the work to an "oratio" and finds parallels from Cicero and Quintilian. The sounding result however does in essence not differ audibly in that respect from many other recordings. I am reminded of some other musicians habit with presenting convoluted arguments f.i. Pickett's in the booklet to his Brandenburgs.

BTW The Bach Players are four people (Marion Moonen.flute / Nicolette Moonen.violin / Reiko Ichise,gambe and Silas Wollston,harpsichord). They play the pieces in the usual order, and the instrumentation is as one could expect.


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## classical yorkist

Personally I like to hear the Ricercare a 3 on a fortepiano, considering that's how Bach first played it. 
http://baroquemusic.org/DLower/BACH729T1MusOffg3ptRicercareFortepiano.mp3
I'm also a big fan of this performance on organ.
http://baroquemusic.org/76364Web.html


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Personally I like to hear the Ricercare a 3 on a fortepiano,


Then get yourself the Aston Magna recording



classical yorkist said:


> considering that's how Bach first played it.


How do you know? I mean, I know there was a piano around but how do we know he used it? And if the Ricercar à 3, why not other pieces (eg the Ricercar à 6)?


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> How do you know? I mean, I know there was a piano around but how do we know he used it? And if the Ricercar à 3, why not other pieces (eg the Ricercar à 6)?


 I've read it in several different places most notably in _Evening in the Palace of Reason_. It seems plausible and I accept the story. The story is also that Bach demurred on the 6 part as being too difficult to perform 'on the spot' I have no evidence to the contrary.


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## KenOC

Alex Ross says with some certainty that the _Musical Offering _was written for the piano, which of course was Frederick's instrument (as JS Bach well knew). Bach was also a sales agent for Silbermann pianos; sales documents survive.

Of course today we would call the instrument a "fortepiano."


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## Mandryka

KenOC said:


> Alex Ross says with some certainty that the _Musical Offering _was written for the piano, which of course was Frederick's instrument (as JS Bach well knew). Bach was also a sales agent for Silbermann pianos; sales documents survive.
> 
> Of course today we would call the instrument a "fortepiano."


But is there a note, a reference, to justify his certainty? Later on I'll spend some time looking at what's known about the first performance and how it was presented.


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## Biffo

Frederick's instrument was the flute, hence the prominent flute part in the Trio Sonata. This doesn't preclude him from playing the piano - he owned seven Silbermann instruments. Bach could well have improvised the 3 part ricercar on one of these. He declined to improvise a six part ricercar as it was too difficult - he later provided one in the complete work.

As to the first performance, was there ever one? Bach sent the completed score to Potsdam but never returned. John Eliot Gardiner asks the question 'Did Frederick ever bother to look at them [the ricercars]' and 'Having experienced the dazzling high-wire act of the first impromptu performances, when everyone was "seized with astonishment" there was no incentive for the king to scrutinize the written out versions....".


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## classical yorkist

Biffo said:


> As to the first performance, was there ever one? Bach sent the completed score to Potsdam but never returned. John Eliot Gardiner asks the question 'Did Frederick ever bother to look at them [the ricercars]' and 'Having experienced the dazzling high-wire act of the first impromptu performances, when everyone was "seized with astonishment" there was no incentive for the king to scrutinize the written out versions....".


I don't think it was ever performed, in fact Gaines in _Evening in the Palace of Reason_ posits that Frederick never even opened or looked at the manuscript Bach sent him. I believe Bach had it sent to Potsdam but Frederick, by this point, had relocated to Sansoucci.


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## Biffo

An amplification (or clarification): at the audience with Frederick, Bach played a 3 part and a 6 part fugue but only the 3 part fugue was on the royal theme. The 6 part fugue was on a theme of Bach's devising as the royal theme was too complex for an immediate improvisation.

Here is an interesting article - http://www.early-music.com/js-bach-musical-offering/


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## Mandryka

Forkel doesn't state explicitly that he improvised for the king on a piano, but the context is all about pianos and it's strongly suggested that he was using one. As far as I can see, Forkel doesn't say that he improvised a contrapuntal piece with three voices, just that he improvised a contrapuntal piece. It may or may not have been the ricercar a 3 from Opfer. But he does say that he couldn't improvise a piece with 6 parts with the subject. He chose his own subject for the improvised 6 part fugue -- I guess using the same instrument as the one with three voices (piano?)

I'm using the translation into English in The Bach Reader. However I note that Dantone in his essay below says that he improvised a 3 part fugue, so go figure!

It would be a bit surprising and worthy of mention I think, if the ricercar a 3 in the printed edition was the same as the improvised contrapuntal piece. Indeed Forkel explicitly states that he _composed _a three part fugue for opfer in Leipzig -- suggesting that it was not the same as the improvised piece. I assume that Forkel had seen the edition.


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## Mandryka

Dantone is very clear on the structure of the piece, and its publication, this is from an essay in the booklet to his recording of opfer.



> J.S. BACH: "The musical offering"
> 
> No musician except Bach has ever approached so closely, or in such a profound way, the boundary that separates art from science, and Bach succeeded in knocking down this very barrier without sacrificing either mathematical reason or purely musical expressiveness.
> 
> The Musical Offering was conceived among Bach's final explorations of esoteric musical issues. The work is rich with multiple meanings: from the simple homage paid to an enlightened monarch, to pure spiritual sacrifice; from a scientific and philosophical dissertation, to the search for mysterious, symbolic significance.
> 
> History has given us ample evidence to retrace with ease the birth and completion of this unparalleled work. Bach's visit in May, 1747 to King Frederick II in Potsdam prompted the Sovereign to propose a musical theme that the composer was then to develop extemporaneously. (Frederick II, himself an excellent musician and flautist, was well acquainted with Bach's improvisatory talents.) As the periodicals of the time recorded, Bach proceeded to astound the king and everyone else present by playing on the keyboard a three-part fugue, in a most outstanding manner, followed by a fugue for six parts. Even more importantly, Bach went well beyond the royal commission: he deemed the proposed theme to be worthy of especial study and attention, worthy indeed of further and more complete elaboration.
> 
> And so in September of the same year the first edition of The Musical Offering was published. One hundred copies were printed; each consisting of five smaller sheaves or booklets, each of which contained its own numbered pages. In the first such booklet we find the frontispiece with its dedication to Frederick 11 of Prussia, and it is here that the work is presented as an offering to the Sovereign. The second booklet contains the Ricercara 3 and the Canon Perpetuus Super Thema Regium. The third contains diverse Canons; the fourth the Ricercara 6 as well as the Canons for 2 and for 4 voices. Lastly the fifth book contains the Sonata Sopr'il Soggetto Reale and a final Canon perpetuus.
> 
> Conflicting theories have been put forward by various scholars as to why the first edition was thus printed in individual sections. Further questions abound concerning the exact order of the passages. Concerning this latter issue, the most convincing theory is that of Ursula Kirkendale, argued also by A. Basso in Frau Musika. According to the scholar, a connection can he drawn between the structure of The Musical Offering and the outline of an oration as set down by Quintiliano in his Institutio Oratorio. Following this outline, each part of The Musical Offering corresponds to a rule of rhetoric, that is, to the different functions of an address or narrative. Thus the work would be divided in two parts. The introduction (exordium) would include respectively the Ricercari in 3 and 6 voices, leaving the tasks of narration and argumentation to the several Canons. The conclusion then of Bach's discourse would he the Sonata and the Canon perpemus - the first of these, freed from strict contrapuntal formality, is suited to move the emotions and sentiments; the second piece stands as the definitive, irrefutable demonstration of reason and of intellectual rigour.
> 
> The enigmatic character of The Musical Offering is evident even in the heading that opens the second booklet, just before the beginning of the first piece. The phrase Regis lussu Cantio Et Reliquia Canonica Arm Resoluta, explaining the origins and content of the work, is an acrostic, the initial letters of which spell the word RICERCAR. Moreover in the original printed edition the Canons are not written out in the complete and extensive form heard by the listener but in the form of a puzzle that the performer first must solve, taking into account the given keys and reference points. What's more, the canons are infinite, in that they have no set ending. Instead they repeat themselves indefinitely, always starting again from the beginning, with no solution provided to escape this unending continuity. The performer is left to decide everything, be it the number of repetitions or the moment and manner in which to bring the canons to an appropriate close.
> 
> If we probe the rhetorical/musical aspects of the Thema Regium, we notice, after the initial harmonic ascent through the three steps of the C minor triad, the first rhetorical figure including the vertical interval of a minor seventh - A flat to B (Saltus duriusculus) - followed by a second figure that descends chromatically, touching upon every semitone between G and C (Posits duriusculus). According to the theory of the sentiments, these two rhetorical/musical figures serve to express languid emotions and sighs, pain and ultimately extreme pathos. In effect The Musical Offering is permeated by a mood of suffering, of lamentation and of tension, broken only now and again by moments of hope and rebellion.
> 
> The opening passage, the Ricercara 3, plays the role of stating the theme and of developing it in the manner considered by the ancients as the most noble and the most suited for interweaving the strands of an argument: the ricercare, the search. The Ricercar a 6, apparently less rigid in structure, has a countersubject with a hinting character, comprised of staccato notes and leaps. It shows a sense of amusement, with its figurations in triplets and its wide breadth. In the central part of the piece the contrapuntal discourse becomes ever more complex, with a series of stretti involving hold chromatic figures.
> 
> The Canon perpetuus that follows opens the first set of canons within the framework of the actual narration. The Thema Regium is here enunciated in the central voice while the upper and lower parts are in canon, at the height of a double octave. In the ingeniously constructed Canon a 2 "Cancrizans" (crabs) the second (following) voice begins on the last note of the first (leading) voice and proceeds backwards until it reaches again the first note, in imitation of the movement of crabs. Literature offers something similar in the palindrome, perhaps the most famous example of which appears in Virgil's hexameter "In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni."
> 
> The Canone a 2 violini in unison comes next, one of the few pieces of the work in which Bach specifies the intended instruments and in which the theme is found in the bass. Afterwards comes the Canone a 2 Per Molum contrarium in which the theme passes to the upper voice, and the two lower voices pursue each other in contrary motion. In the Canon a 2 per Augmentationem contrario Motu we find for the first time a variation of the theme in the middle voice, while the other two parts, in canon, move in contrary motion but with redoubled values, the one with respect to the other.
> 
> In the subsequent Canone per Tonos, the Thema Regium undergoes variation in a manner that renders it chromatic from the start, whereas the other two voices play a canon set apart by a fifth. The modulation that occurs during the enunciation is altogether congenial. The theme is put forward and taken up again one tone higher without causing any perceptible harmonic trauma, and so on throughout. This process is itself a rhetorical/musical device, called Auxesis or Climax until the 17th century and Gradatio in the period that followed. The effect produced upon the listener's ear is one of gradual crescendo, like an ever more insistent question, until a climax of emotional tension is achieved.
> 
> The piece that concludes the first part of the discussion (Egressus) and comes before the second Exordium is the Fuga Canonica in Epidiapente, a three-part fugue built upon a canon between the two upper parts in fifths. As to the origins of the term "Epidiapente", it was common practice in previous times to express such intervals as unison, a fourth, a fifth, an octave, and so forth, with the Greek terminology Diatessaron, Diapente, Diapason, etc. Thus Bach uses the expression "Epidiapente" to indicate that the following part would sing a fifth above, much as he would have used the term "Subdiapente" had the same part answered a fifth below instead.
> 
> The Ricercar a 6 is one of the most imposing contrapuntal creations that Bach ever conceived. The number of the voices, the incredible complicated interplay of the parts, even the piece's remarkable dimensions, comes together in a work that is surely unique within its genre. Its structure recalls the Ricercare in its most ancient form: after the grand initial exposition of the theme, diverse new thematic ideas are stated to be then developed in a fugue; yet within each of these ideas the principle subject appears inserted - an extraordinary interweaving, ruled over by one, great, single thought.
> 
> The second set of canons includes two brief canons for two voices in contrary motion, retto and inverso, (Canon a 2 Quaerendo invenietis) and the more extensive canon for four voices (Canon a 4). In the latter the theme is enriched in its variation by passing notes that give it a character both expressive and dramatic.
> 
> The moment of greatest intensity within the whole work, the Sonata sopr'il Soggetto Reale, foresees a very precise ensemble, with the flute rising to the role of protagonist, in homage no doubt to the great talents as soloist of Frederick II. In the course of the four movements, the Thema Regium appears in its original form only in the opening Allegro, letting its presence be felt afterward every now and then as a solemn quotation in the lovely context of flowing discourse and formal perfection. In the two slow movements Bach gives an essay of pure musical eloquence and of extraordinary expressive sensitivity with a splendid "affettuoso" style. The Sonata ends with an Allegro in 6/8 time based upon the royal theme, superbly varied with pauses, appoggiature, and chromatic progressions that produce veritable sighs, creating contrast with the subsequent passages in semichromes, bringing the piece to its conclusion in a crescendo of rhythm and dynamics.
> 
> After the emotional climax of the Sonata in which the sentiments have been given free rein, the final Canon Perpetuus calls everything back to order by means of its great introspectiveness and its far more rigid and rational control. We find again here the forma mentis characteristic of Bach - a mind-set which, placing spirit above matter, holds within itself impenetrable designs, so loaded with secret symbolism, that posterity is left an inheritance such as might never be comprehended in its fullness.
> 
> Ottavio Dantone Translation: AD ITALIA


Note that Dantone is (in my view correctly) non commital about the nature of the keyboard Bach used for the improvisation.

The idea that Opfer is a sort of political statement about the right of the king to rule and control is something which Yearsley discusses in his book on Bach's counterpoint.


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> Note that Dantone is (in my view correctly) non commital about the nature of the keyboard Bach used for the improvisation.


But he in no way precludes the use of a Silberman fortepiano and we know that Frederick had a large collection of them and was a advocate of the galant style. It seems perfectly reasonable that he would have wanted to hear Bach extemporise on his new, and exciting, new instrument. I cannot think of any source that connects Bach's initial performance of the Ricercare a 3 with a harpsichord but there is some evidence to suggest the fortepiano.


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## Biffo

From the booklet note with the Linde Consort recording:

'According to the Berlische Nachrichten "His Majesty went to the so-called forte and piano and condescended, in person and without preparation, to play to Kapellmeister Bach a theme on which to improvise [three-part] fugue. This the Kapellmeister did so successfully that not only was His Majesty moved to express his most gracious satisfaction....."'.

It seems plausible that if the king played the theme on the forte-piano Bach would provide his improvisation on the same or similar instrument.

According to the notes for the Goebel/MAK recording, the dedication copy printed by Schubler only contained, and on separate sheaves of paper, the dedication page and the first eight numbers. The other five pieces 'were evidently not written until later and were printed in two further instalments also by Georg Schubler'.


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> But he in no way precludes the use of a Silberman fortepiano and we know that Frederick had a large collection of them and was a advocate of the galant style. It seems perfectly reasonable that he would have wanted to hear Bach extemporise on his new, and exciting, new instrument. I cannot think of any source that connects Bach's initial performance of the Ricercare a 3 with a harpsichord but there is some evidence to suggest the fortepiano.


I repeat, we do not, as far as i know, have any evidence that he played the Ricercar à 3 for the king. All we know is that he improvised a fugue on the royal theme, that it had less than 6 voices, and that he later returned to Leipzig and composed the Ricercar à 3. I have suggested that, given the way Forkel is translated in The Bach Reader, it would be surprising if he had improvised the published Ricercar à 3 for the king.

And yes, I agree that it's likely that whatever he played for the king, he used a piano.


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## Mandryka

Biffo said:


> From the booklet note with the Linde Consort recording:
> 
> 'According to the Berlische Nachrichten "His Majesty went to the so-called forte and piano and condescended, in person and without preparation, to play to Kapellmeister Bach a theme on which to improvise [three-part] fugue. This the Kapellmeister did so successfully that not only was His Majesty moved to express his most gracious satisfaction....."'.
> 
> It seems plausible that if the king played the theme on the forte-piano Bach would provide his improvisation on the same or similar instrument.
> 
> According to the notes for the Goebel/MAK recording, the dedication copy printed by Schubler only contained, and on separate sheaves of paper, the dedication page and the first eight numbers. The other five pieces 'were evidently not written until later and were printed in two further instalments also by Georg Schubler'.


Why is "three part" in square brackets? This is important for this,discussion, obviously.

I didn't know there were two editions in Bach's life, the "dedication printed by Schubler" and a later edition (presumably of 100)


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## classical yorkist

Mandryka said:


> I repeat, we do not, as far as i know, have any evidence that he played the Ricercar à 3 for the king. All we know is that he improvised a fugue on the royal theme, that it had less than 6 voices, and that he later returned to Leipzig and composed the Ricercar à 3. I have suggested that, given the way Forkel is translated in The Bach Reader, it would be surprising if he had improvised the published Ricercar à 3 for the king.
> 
> And yes, I agree that it's likely that whatever he played for the king, he used a piano.


Yes, I should have said the 3 part fugue on the Royal theme. One of he things that always gets me thinking is how similar the 3 part Ricercare could be to the fugue Bach performed in person for Frederick?


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## Biffo

Mandryka said:


> Why is "three part" in square brackets? This is important for this,discussion, obviously.
> 
> I didn't know there were two editions in Bach's life, the "dedication printed by Schubler" and a later edition (presumably of 100)


[three part] is presumably an editorial insertion by the translator; the German version of the notes simply says 'einer Fuga'. I only read the English notes before my previous post. Omission of the indefinite article was a typo on my part.


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## Mandryka

Biffo said:


> [three part] is presumably an editorial insertion by the translator; the German version of the notes simply says 'einer Fuga'. I only read the English notes before my previous post. Omission of the indefinite article was a typo on my part.


That's consistent with my translation.


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> Yes, I should have said the 3 part fugue on the Royal theme. One of he things that always gets me thinking is how similar the 3 part Ricercare could be to the fugue Bach performed in person for Frederick?


We don't know that he played a three part Fugue for the king, only that he played a fugue and it had less than 6 parts.


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## classical yorkist

The Messori recording on Brilliant arrived today and immediately went into the player. I enjoyed it very much and the set also includes Kunst der Fugue plus other material. A really great listen, the harpsichord version of the Ricercare a 3 was a little different but still an interesting take.


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## Mandryka

classical yorkist said:


> The Messori recording on Brilliant arrived today and immediately went into the player. I enjoyed it very much and the set also includes Kunst der Fugue plus other material. A really great listen, the harpsichord version of the Ricercare a 3 was a little different but still an interesting take.


Yes, there's a lot to think about in that Messori recording.

By the way, someone let me have the sound from a video recording of a live performance originally with Kuijken Bros and Kohnen, in Munich on 28 July 2000. It's very good, these guys are totally confident in the music, their ideas have been honed, and I'd say the performance is inspired. It feels like your looking in to a special live event. If you want it let me know.


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## Ariasexta

Before buying more different interpretations, buy this definitive recording first


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