# What's the most impressive opera tradition?



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Just curious about what you guys think of the most quality-laden operatic traditions in the world.

I'm defining it loosely by nation/language. There will be many composers who can't be easily placed - Handel for instance, should we list him as German, or are his operas italianate, or what about his settling in London? Meyerbeer was German born but we'd think of him as belonging to the French school. Mozart's italianate operas with a _bona fide _Italian librettist in Da Ponte sound more Italian than Germanic to me. But fringes apart, we can easily agree that Verdi is very Italian, Wagner very German, Massenet very French, Purcell very British, and Mussorgsky very Russian.

So, loosely defined, what operatic tradition you consider to be tops? I'd include operettas as well. Some of these nations/languages continue to produce 20th and 21st century operas as well and this should be taken into consideration.

1. Italianate - think Monteverdi, Verdi, Puccini, Rossini, Donizetti, Bellini, the Verismo composers, etc. but you may thrown in Italian-language operas by composers of other nationalities such as Handel and Mozart when (if? some may disagree) their operas are very Italianate
2. Germanic (it would include German-language opera regardless of national origin such as Germany proper or Austrian, etc.) - think Wagner, Mozart, Beethoven (1 opera), Weber, R. Strauss, J. Strauss II's operettas, Berg, etc.
3. French - think Rameau, Berlioz, Bizet, Massenet, Offenbach's opera(s) and operettas, Meyerbeer, Gounod, Debussy, Poulenc, etc.
4. Russian - think Glinka, Borodin, Tchaikowsky, Rimsky-Korsakoff, Mussorgsky, Stravisnky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, etc.
5. Anglo (would include the United Kingdom, the United States...) - think Purcell, Britten, Gerswhin, Adams, etc, and why not Gilbert and Sullivan, plus a large number of composers in the 20th-21th century new opera scene which seems very active in the Anglo sphere.

I think the above are enough for a poll. Of course we have gorgeous Czech opera, etc, but as impressive as other national operatic traditions can be - and sorry if I offend someone - they can't compare in volume and longevity to the above five.

I'll vote for the Italianate tradition. It's not a small matter that they've created opera, even though it seems to me that after Puccini they haven't been very active and are rapidly losing ground (or have entirely lost it already, correct me if I'm wrong) in terms of contemporary opera.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

I would put Italy and Germany at first place ex aequo. Italians invited opera and were leading nation in this "industry" until the XIXth century. But somewhere in middle of romantic era they lost their leadership. They failed to lead opera further than Verdi - Puccini or Leoncavallo wrote good music but they didn't bring anything new. Verismo means stagnation and doesn't even get near of being impressive. Strauss and SVS led opera into XXth century, from Wagner times Germany wears the crown in kingdom of opera. 

And that's where really impressive opera traditions end. All other countires represent diffrent sort of value, it's diffrent league. Eventually I could give another ex aequo for France and Russia, but that's argueable.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Voted German/Austrian. After all, more seriousness to it - and Mozart to lighten things up, if counted as being of that category  If not, well then it gets tougher.
But not the most qualified of views ...


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

If you put Mozart in the Italian catagory.......
Which is most correct since his 3 most famous operas are Italian

Then there is little to discuss seriously about where the most quality works reside, answer is Italian
-Verdi
-Mozart
-Puccini
-Donizetti
-Rossini
-Bellini


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Italy. So many composers from, say, Rossini through to Puccini reached the pinnacle of their art by forsaking nearly all other genres in order to concentrate on opera - there were fewer instances of this exclusivity elsewhere in Europe (apart from obvious exceptions such as Wagner, Massenet, Meyerbeer etc.) - for many opera didn't seem to be the main priority (or it was beyond them to compete). 

Individual Italian operas aren't necessarily my absolute favourites but in general I'd say that Italy created many of the original templates for composers of other nations to work to and develop from.

As the 20th century progressed Italy's pre-eminence had diminished as newer forms of music seemed to bring about a more cosmopolitan 'level playing field' approach where no one country could claim to really lead from the front any more - noteworthy composers of opera or anything else could come from anywhere rather than just Italy, Austria-Hungary/Germany and France which was largely the case during most of the 19th century.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> If you put Mozart in the Italian catagory.......
> which is most correct since his 3 most famous operas are Italian
> 
> Then there is little to discuss seriously about where the most quality works reside, answer is Italian
> ...


If German born Mozart and Handel did thier famous operas in German then we have a more serious case to be made for German:

-Wagner
-Mozart
-Handel
-Richard Strauss


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I voted for Italianate, because of the great Italians:

Monteverdi 
Verdi
Donizetti
Puccini
Bellini
Rossini

and the enduring Italian operas of Handel & Mozart


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I voted Italian too, although Germanic was tempting, and really all the traditions have something unique to offer. 

As people have mentioned above, the body of work is impressive and varied, the composers in the 18th and 19th century concentrated on the art. 

Many (not all, of course) of the fundamental descriptive words, starting with opera itself, are Italian, (aria, coloratura, da capo, cadenza, cabaletto, libretto, soprano, castrato, diva, prima donna, bel canto, verismo, opera seria, opera buffa), and Italian is such a wonderful language to sing in, with its clear open vowels.

I think opera is also close to the Italian heart. Where else in the world is a chorus from an opera practically the national anthem?


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## jhar26 (Jul 6, 2008)

Italian for the reasons Natalie mentionned, although Germanic is a close number two.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Oh no. Here we go with apples and oranges again.It's getting so tiresome.
All these are great heritages,and each great in its own way. How can you rank one above another?


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Are there _any_ two things that you don't consider to be apples and oranges?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

superhorn said:


> Oh no. Here we go with apples and oranges again.It's getting so tiresome.
> All these are great heritages,and each great in its own way. How can you rank one above another?


I can compare apples and oranges. They are both fruits, and I like oranges a lot better. They are juicy, refreshing, and sweet but with a tangy citrus taste, while apples are often bland. Orange juice is much better than apple juice. It is true that apples in pies are good, but that's pretty much the only way I like them. So although one can say that apples do have qualities (in spite of the fact that I don't believe that they keep the doctor away), I think that the qualities of oranges outweigh those of apples.

See? Easy.

Oh, and buy the way, I like better the Italianate opera heritage although I do see qualities in the German, French, Russian, and Anglo ones.


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Well, here's a thing: Verdi and the Italian tradition was running out of steam just as the Germanic scene with Wagner et alii was heating up.

In the 20th Century, who have the Italians got? Puccini.

The Germans have Strauss and a whole lot of others (Berg, Schoenberg, Hindemith, Weill, Krenek, Korngold, et al.).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Well, here's a thing: Verdi and the Italian tradition was running out of steam just as the Germanic scene with Wagner et alii was heating up.
> 
> In the 20th Century, who have the Italians got? Puccini.
> 
> The Germans have Strauss and a whole lot of others (Berg, Schoenberg, Hindemith, Weill, Krenek, Korngold, et al.).


Yes, sure, but also do remember that the Italians started in 1600, so if you're setting their demise at Puccini, they lasted for 324 years (until 1924 when Puccini died leaving _Turandot _almost finished), which is much longer than the Germans have had so far. If you put their awakening at Wagner's first big hit which was _The Flying Dutchman_ in 1843 (although I'd set it earlier with Mozart, Beethoven, and Weber - _Die Zauberflöte_ was composed in 1791, _Fidelio_ in 1804/5, and _Der Freischütz_ in 1817-21), then when you add 324 years to 1843, you get that the Germans will need to keep going with the same pace until 2167 to match what the Italians did. Who knows if there will still be opera in 2167?

Also, you make it sound like between Verdi's later years (his last two operas were not at all "running out of steam," they are both among his best creations - _Otello_ and _Falstaff_) and Puccini there wasn't anybody else. I think you're forgetting Ponchielli, Boito, Catalani, Mascagni, Leoncavallo, Giordano, Cilea, and Montemezzi.

By the way, after Puccini you also have Dallapiccola, Nono, Berio, Sciarrino, Menotti, and last but not least, Italian-American John Corigliano, so don't count the Italian tradition out so fast.


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## Keikobad (Jul 9, 2010)

Chacun a son gout. Is it necessary that there be a conclusive "most impressive opera tradition"? Especially since any answer one might offer is totally subjective and questionable.

I guess what I'm asking is "So what?"; where, then, do we go after having answered the question?


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## Sebastien Melmoth (Apr 14, 2010)

Almaviva: well said.

Yes, I would date German opera back to the Magic Flute--(although Sebastien Bach's oratorio the St. Matthew Passion is virtually operatic).


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Keikobad said:


> Chacun a son gout. Is it necessary that there be a conclusive "most impressive opera tradition"? Especially since any answer one might offer is totally subjective and questionable.
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is "So what?"; where, then, do we go after having answered the question?


We're just having fun. It's a conversation starter, that's what we do most of the time here. Apparently pointless threads always end up having interesting points being made and people like to exchange ideas about these things. We're not about to elect the best operatic tradition and pretend that the result is written in stone or has any special value; like I said, it's just for fun.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Sebastien Melmoth said:


> Almaviva: well said.
> 
> Yes, I would date German opera back to the Magic Flute--(although Sebastien Bach's oratorio the St. Matthew Passion is virtually operatic).


Thanks.:tiphat:

So, if we pick the Magic Flute as a decisive adoption of the typically German Singspiel sub-genre to counter the Italianate influence, we still have the Italians with 191 years of a head start, and like I said they haven't completely disappeared after Puccini either, so they still get my vote (I'll not pretend that I'm entirely unbiased about this, but the position is certainly sustainable independently of personal bias).

But like I said to the other user who questioned the validity of this exercise, it's just for fun, and I surely respect anybody's opinion that the Germanic tradition is better. I'm a big Wagner lover (his music, not his person) and I very much enjoy Germanic opera. I easily place it number two in my preference.


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## Listener (Sep 20, 2010)

Monteverdi is my favorite opera composer so I have to go with Italian.


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## Bernard OHanlon (Apr 1, 2014)

Mozart bestrides both Italianate and Germanic streams.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Italianate / German / French:tiphat:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Italy surely must be the most influential, simply because they started the genre. On the other hand, Wagner's influence stretched far beyond the world of opera, which I'm not sure is so true of any of the Italian composers.

In the last century, since the end of the Second World War anyway, I'd say British, or rather English. Britten dominated post war opera in a way no other contemporary composer did. At least two of his operas, *Peter Grimes* and *Billy Budd* have entered the standard repetory, and _all_ of them are still performed from time to time all over the western world, even *Gloriana*, which failed (for mostly extra-musical reasons) at its premiere.

Who would have thought that _das Land ohne Musik_ would have produced such a successful composer?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

GregMitchell said:


> Italy surely must be the most influential, simply because they started the genre. ...
> 
> Who would have thought that _das Land ohne Musik_ would have produced such a successful composer?


... and that Italy would become a backwater of the opera world after Puccini? :-(


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## mahler76 (Mar 12, 2016)

Not really a choice besides italianate


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> ... and that Italy would become a backwater of the opera world after Puccini? :-(


Every country is a backwater of opera after Puccini.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> Every country is a backwater of opera after Puccini.


Oh come now. What are you trying to suggest? That opera died with Puccini. Surely not.

Here's a selection of operas which premiered after *Turandot*

Szymanowski: *Krol Roger*
Janacek: *Vec Makropulos *
Stravinsky: *Oedipus Rex*
Shostakovich: *The Nose*
Weil: *Aufsteig und Fall der Stadt Mahoganny*
Janacek: *From the House of the Dead*
Strauss: *Arabella*
Gershwin: *Porgy and Bess*
Berg: *Lulu*
Strauss: *Daphne*
Strauss: *Capriccio*
Britten: *Peter Grimes*
Prokoviev: *War and Peace*
Britten: *The Rape of Lucretia*
Britten: *Albert Herring*
Britten: *Billy Budd*
Menotti: *The Consul*
Stravinsky: *The Rake's Progress*
Britten: *The Turn of the Screw*
Walton: *Troilus and Cressida*
Tippett: *The Midsummer Marriage*
Prokoviev: *The Fiery Angel*
Poulenc: *Dialogues des Carmelites*
Schoenberg: *Moses und Aron*
Barber: *Vanessa*
Poulenc: *La voix humaine*
Britten: *A Midsummer Night's Dream*
Tippett: *King Priam*
Britten: *Death in Venice*

and that's just up to 1973.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Oh come now. What are you trying to suggest? That opera died with Puccini. Surely not.
> 
> Here's a selection of operas which premiered after *Turandot*
> 
> ...


What I am trying to say is that just because there are not many popular Italian operas after Puccini does not make Italy of a backwater of opera after Puccini since there are few popular operas after Puccini anyway. None of the operas on your list are among the most popular and the more popular on that list are from the first decades after Puccini´s death. I can say Germany became a backwater in opera after Richard Strauss too. There are not many popular German operas after Strauss too.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> What I am trying to say is that just because there are not many popular Italian operas after Puccini does not make Italy of a backwater of opera after Puccini since there are few popular operas after Puccini anyway. None of the operas on your list are among the most popular and the more popular on that list are from the first decades after Puccini´s death. I can say Germany became a backwater in opera after Richard Strauss too. There are not many popular German operas after Strauss too.


Maybe not amongst the most popular, but many of them are quite regularly performed, and some of them more often than Puccini's *Il Trittico*, for instance.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Sloe, sorry that the word backwater has riled you, but that's the way I see it, and I assure you it pains me to say. Greg's list is telling. The influence of Italian composers, singers and the companies themselves (La Scala excepted) has diminished greatly, exacerbated by its lack of strong concert hall traditions. Some of the European cities with 2 or more full time opera houses: London, Paris, Berlin, Budapest, Prague, Vienna, Moscow.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

most impressive: Italianate
most underrated: Russian


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

Don Fatale said:


> Sloe, sorry that the word backwater has riled you, but that's the way I see it, and I assure you it pains me to say. Greg's list is telling. The influence of Italian composers, singers and the companies themselves (La Scala excepted) has diminished greatly, exacerbated by its lack of strong concert hall traditions. Some of the European cities with 2 or more full time opera houses: London, Paris, Berlin, Budapest, Prague, Vienna, Moscow.


He is just suggesting that the generations of italian composers who succeeded Mascagni and Puccini still produced lots of Operas and that if Puccini's Operas popularity is the only standard for which judging an Opera then very few Operas premiered after him came anywhere close to attain the same status (especially because Opera lost influences over other entertainment medium like cinema).


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The most impressive opera tradition I've ever seen involves the around the block line at the Ladies Room between acts of Die Götterdämmerung at the Met. Seen it thrice. Approximately same length of line each time makes it a tradition.

As far as OP is concerned, I have a soft spot for the Italians: Verdi, Puccini and Mascagni, plus of course, Mozart's two greatest Italian operas, Le Nozzi di Figaro and Don Giovanni.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Menotti: *The Consul*
> .


What do I see here an Italian name.
Menotti also composed The Telephone another opera that is staged regularly.
Among living composers is Sciarrino one of the most popular opera composers. Then I can say that I personally don´t really like either Menotti or Sciarrino. But that is just what I think.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

By the way, if God was to attempt to create the perfect musical language for opera, could he ever do better than Italian?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Sloe said:


> What do I see here an Italian name.
> Menotti also composed The Telephone another opera that is staged regularly.
> Among living composers is Sciarrino one of the most popular opera composers. Then I can say that I personally don´t really like either Menotti or Sciarrino. But that is just what I think.


Menotti might have been born in Italy, but he spent the majority of his life in America, and considered himself an American composer.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> Menotti might have been born in Italy, but he spent the majority of his life in America, and considered himself an American composer.


In an interview with Vanity Fair this is what the composer himself answered on the subject:

"Sono italianissimo. Però i libretti delle mie opere li ho scritti in inglese. Americano lo sono stato solo per un giorno, quando ho ricevuto il Premio Kennedy, che viene dato esclusivamente a cittadini americani. Era il 1984, ri cordo che mi telefonarono dalla Casa Bianca per darmi la notizia. "È un grande onore, ma non posso accettare," risposi. "Sono cittadino italiano". L'indomani il presidente Reagan mi mandò un messaggio chiedendomi di essere americano per un solo giorno. Garantiva che il giorno dopo mi avrebbe tolto la cittadinanza. Così accettai". 
Diventando a pieno titolo cittadino dei Due Mondi.

Translated:
"I'm very italian. But I've written my libretti in english. I've become american just for one day, when I've received the Kennedy Prix, which is delivery exclusively to american citizens.
It was in 1984, I remember that they called me from the White House to give me the news.
I answer them: "It's a great honor but I cannot accept. I am an italian citizen".
"The day after President Reagan messaged me asking me to become an american citizen just for one day.
He swore the next day he would remove the american citizenship. So I accepted."
He fully became a citizen of the Two Worlds.

http://www.spoletonline.com/?page=articolo&id=10939

Menotti had undoubtedly in the United States his main market, it's thanks to the success in USA that in his time he was most perfomed living operist.
Though keep in mind many italian composers work/worked away from Italy.

EDIT:


hpowders said:


> By the way, if God was to attempt to create the perfect musical language for opera, could he ever do better than Italian?


I do really love how russian/ukrainian sound.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

hpowders said:


> By the way, if God was to attempt to create the perfect musical language for opera, could he ever do better than Italian?


Simple question, simple answer: no :tiphat:


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