# Beethoven Symphonies set recommendation?



## Declined

I have the set conducted by Herbert Blomstedt and performed by Staatskapelle Dresden. While it is certainly a very satisfactory set of recordings, I would like to expand my Beethoven repository. 

I'm looking for a set that is close to what Beethoven wrote down, but not necessarily HIP. I want to, as much as possible, be able to hear each instrument clearly. I'm considering the set by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Hogwood. How is this one? Any other recommendations? 

As always, thanks.


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## realdealblues

Hogwood is ok. Nothing I would consider special.

The big debate for Beethoven is on metronome markings. Whether his tempo markings are correct or whether he just put them on there to mess with everyone.

You have a great set with Blomstedt. The tempos are all moderate and they are all winners. If there is a weak recording in that set, for me it's Symphony 5 which could use a little more fire. But sound quality, orchestra quality, etc. the Blomstedt is a great set.

I would recommend Chailly's Beethoven cycle. Chailly keeps Beethoven's metronome markings and if we are to believe that this is indeed how Beethoven wanted them, than I believe this is how they should sound. I do not believe you will find a better set for sound quality as well as performance. 

Hogwood uses period instruments and smaller forces. Beethoven was larger than life and always pushing boundaries and I don't believe the smaller forces work as well, especially with the 9th Symphony. The sound is too small wimpy. Paavo Jarvi has a popular set which uses smaller forces with modern instruments and his tempos are in line with Chailly's, however again, especially in the 9th symphony, they just don't have the breath or power that I believe Beethoven wanted us to hear.

There are of course other popular modern recordings from people like Barenboim who pays no attention to written tempos and ignores other small markings to put his own spin on it which some people also like to hear.

I like a nice mix with the option of hear Beethoven many different ways. You have a perfect middle of the road set with Blomstedt. I would listen to Chailly and compare the two. If you feel Chailly is too fast, you can try others. Or if you don't like the full sound, then by all means give Hogwood at try.

Personally I'm happy with Furtwanger, Toscanini, Klemperer, Szell, Bernstein (both New York & Vienna), Karajan (60's & 70's cycles), Kletzki, Bohm, Kempe, Wand, Blomstedt & Chailly. They all offer different views and contrasts and I feel content owning them all.


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## bigshot

Blomstedt is a very good set. You probably want something different that that... maybe HIP, but I can't be the one to recommend that, because I prefer Beethoven with modern instruments and performance. I'd suggest Karajan's 60s cycle or Kletzki Czech Philharmonic. Both of those are excellent and unique. Good contrast to Bloomstedt. For historical recordings, you absolutely should have Toscanini. He is in a league of his own. If you don't want another complete cycle and just want to sample, I would recommend Bohm's 6th and Kleiber's 5 and 7. All of these are safe bets. I like Wand too, but I don't think that would be as much of a contrast with Blomstedt. I don't care much for Barenboim, Abbado or Chailly. They don't go deep enough.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

Walter Weller's set on the Musical Heritage was my first, and after hearing sets from more well known conductors with more well known orchestras, I still find no faults with it. Sonically and performance-wise, it's a great set at a great price.

Barenboim's set is another I'd consider. It's a nice well rounded set.

Immerseel's on Anima Eterna is my favorite period set. It's period without sounding too held back, like many period sets. Very stormy, but with more air to breath. I'd recommend playing this set on a high end system to get full advantage of the gut strings. Immerseel is more like if Solti or Karajan conducted a period orchestra.


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## Guest

Slightly disappointed with my Jarvi/SNO set of Prokofiev, I'm beginning to think that I'd prefer separate interpretations, which is already the case with my Beethoven.

1st and 2nd Zinman/Tonhalle
3rd, 4th, 8th Haitink/LSO
5th and 7th Kleiber WPO
5th and 6th Chailly LGO
9th HvK/BPO (also McKerras/OAE)

I also have my own recordings of Barenboim's set at the Proms 2013. It's certainly a convenient listen, but not as good as the separates.


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## prymel

For me it's a matter of tempo. I have three complete cycles and a number of random single recordings, and I've found (for Beethoven, at least) that tempo matters. I cut my teeth on Karajan's 1980's recording of the 6th, bought the Vanska/Minnesota cycle, which maintains a similar tempo, but includes the third movement repeats which Karajan omits. So both of those, being well-played at a moderate tempo, work for me. But then I got the Jochum/LSO cycle, and couldn't believe that the 6th could be played so slowly. It's a fine performance, but the pace is just too leisurely for me, and I can't see myself revisiting it much in the future.

I also listened to Robert Greenberg's Symphonies of Beethoven course from the Great Course series, and he uses a version of the 3rd that is so much faster than anything I've heard, it almost seems like a parody to me. Yet, again, Jochum is very slow, defeating the rhythmic drive of the piece. So moderate tempo wins again in my ears.

If you enjoy excellent performances that aren't too slow or too fast, Vanska and Karajan's 1963 cycle are both good choices.


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## SONNET CLV

If I had to live with just one set (I currently have a couple dozen on hand, and just got a new set in the mail today -- the Hanover band Original Instruments set on Nimbus Records) ... but if I had to grab just _one _for that desert island, right now I'd take the Rudolf Kempe / Munich Philharmonic Orchestra set, which is now on SACD!


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## bigshot

prymel said:


> For me it's a matter of tempo. I have three complete cycles and a number of random single recordings, and I've found (for Beethoven, at least) that tempo matters. I cut my teeth on Karajan's 1980's recording of the 6th, bought the Vanska/Minnesota cycle, which maintains a similar tempo


Have you tried Bohm? That's the best 6th I've ever heard. (Stoki is a close second.)


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## Declined

I went with Immerseel. Everything is great. The instruments sound very crisp. I find that it is, for the most part not too fast that it can't be appreciated, but still very intense. I just don't think the 9th works with a smaller orchestra though.

Thanks for all your suggestions.


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## SalieriIsInnocent

^ I agree, I didn't really care for his choices are far as the choir either, but other than that it's quite good.


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## SixFootScowl

Declined said:


> I went with Immerseel. Everything is great. The instruments sound very crisp. I find that it is, for the most part not too fast that it can't be appreciated, but still very intense. I just don't think the 9th works with a smaller orchestra though.


Nice. My Immerseel set is in the mail. I can hardly wait for it to arrive.


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## SixFootScowl

Florestan said:


> Nice. My Immerseel set is in the mail. I can hardly wait for it to arrive.


My Immerseel set never arrived because they sent the wrong set and it was returned. Now I am not sure I want it since I have Hanover Band's set.



realdealblues said:


> Personally I'm happy with Furtwanger, Toscanini, Klemperer, Szell, Bernstein (both New York & Vienna), Karajan (60's & 70's cycles), Kletzki, Bohm, Kempe, Wand, Blomstedt & Chailly. They all offer different views and contrasts and I feel content owning them all.


Which Bernstein setdo you think would best compliment my current collection of Leibowitz, Szell, Wand, Ferencsik, and Hanover Band?


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## AnotherSpin

From all my recent discoveries Immerseel has greatest impact.


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## SixFootScowl

AnotherSpin said:


> From all my recent discoveries Immerseel has greatest impact.


Tell me more. What can you compare it to if anything?


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## AnotherSpin

Florestan said:


> Tell me more. What can you compare it to if anything?


It is very HIP. Small band, everything is clear and direct. Nothing pompous or "grand". Pure energy and drive. They deliver music as it was written only yesterday, with wonderful immediacy with a tint of youthful confidence. Also, the sound quality of this recordings is terrific.

Will try to refresh my impressions from Hanover Band to compare.


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## SixFootScowl

AnotherSpin said:


> It is very HIP. Small band, everything is clear and direct. Nothing pompous or "grand". Pure energy and drive. They deliver music as it was written only yesterday, with wonderful immediacy with a tint of youthful confidence. Also, the sound quality of this recordings is terrific.
> 
> Will try to refresh my impressions from Hanover Band to compare.


I'll soon be able to compare them. Found an Immerseel set for $12 and ordered it (couldn't pass up a deal like that, and free shipping too). Hopefully not like my last Dec attempt at the same, which turned out to be the wrong CD, but this time it is a different seller.


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## AnotherSpin

Florestan said:


> I'll soon be able to compare them. Found an Immerseel set for $12 and ordered it (couldn't pass up a deal like that, and free shipping too). Hopefully not like my last Dec attempt at the same, which turned out to be the wrong CD, but this time it is a different seller.


 I am listening 3rd from Hanover Band now. It is ok, but their approach is more traditional and sane to me in comparison with Immerseel. Goosebumps index shows lesser values.


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## SixFootScowl

Declined said:


> I'm looking for a set that is close to what Beethoven wrote down, but not necessarily HIP. I want to, as much as possible, be able to hear each instrument clearly. I'm considering the set by the Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Hogwood. How is this one? Any other recommendations?
> 
> As always, thanks.


According to Gunther Schuller's book, The Compleat Conductor, he found only three conductors who faithfully followed the composers intentions: Carlos Kleiber, Bernard Haitink, and James Levine. I wrote these names down when I read/skimmed his book.


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## AnotherSpin

Florestan said:


> According to Gunther Schuller's book, The Compleat Conductor, he found only three conductors who faithfully followed the composers intentions: Carlos Kleiber, Bernard Haitink, and James Levine. I wrote these names down when I read/skimmed his book.


I always thought Haitink and Levine perform the same material very differently, and Kleiber is das Ding an sich.


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## SixFootScowl

AnotherSpin said:


> I always thought Haitink and Levine perform the same material very differently, and Kleiber is das Ding an sich.


Gunther only evaluated about 8 or 10 works and only two Beethoven Symphonies (though it seems he evaluated dozens of conductors over those works). I had that list in my wallet for months thinking I had to get one that was accurate, but later figured what really matters is to get one you really enjoy listening to.


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## AnotherSpin

All three conductors are very, very good, each of them has a separate dear place in my musical picture of the world, but what might be the reason of such generalizations? BTW, Gunther Schuller is a jazz conductor, or is not he? I remember seeing him once conducting on a stage, in an vain attempt to offer something chimeric in a middle between classics and jazz.


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## Kelt

It's hard to reccomend a set. For HIP recordings I like Hogwood. I feel many of his are outstanding, although his 9th is almost never the first I reach for. I also love Kleiber's 5 & 7, Klemperer's 9th from 1957, Karajan's 1960's set. Harnoncourt's/Chamber Orchestra of Europe recent set is excellent, on modern instruments. If I have to reccomend a whole set, it'd be that one.


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## AnotherSpin

Gardiner seems to find a sweet spot between HIP and traditional, as to my ears.


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## SixFootScowl

AnotherSpin said:


> Gardiner seems to find a sweet spot between HIP and traditional, as to my ears.


As I recall (been a couple years though) Gardiner's Ninth did not impress me.


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## AnotherSpin

Florestan said:


> As I recall (been a couple years though) Gardiner's Ninth did not impress me.


 I posted while listening 3rd


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## DavidA

AnotherSpin said:


> I posted while listening 3rd


There is a much better performance of the 3rd from Gardiner as the soundtrack to the film Eroica.


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## AnotherSpin

DavidA said:


> There is a much better performance of the 3rd from Gardiner as the soundtrack to the film Eroica.


Sorry, didn't get your remark.


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## SixFootScowl

AnotherSpin said:


> I posted while listening 3rd


His Third I know for a fact is fantastic. I love it! I spun it incessantly 1.5 years ago when I was on vacation. I may have to get the Gardiner cycle, perhaps. I don't know.


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## KenOC

I want to put in a plug for Haitink's newer cycle on the LSO (for London Symphony Orchestra) label. Compared with his earlier efforts, these are leaner and more HIP, a bit quicker and more vigorous and with a lot more clarity. But they still have the central European virtues of avoiding show or exaggeration. The recording is superlative.

The OP wrote, "I'm looking for a set that is close to what Beethoven wrote down, but not necessarily HIP. I want to, as much as possible, be able to hear each instrument clearly." Since this set uses the latest Del Mar edition of the scores, follows Beethoven's metronome marks, and certainly has wonderful clarity, it may fit the OP's needs very well.

Either way, hugely enjoyable. A contender.


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## Lukecash12

realdealblues said:


> Hogwood is ok. Nothing I would consider special.
> 
> The big debate for Beethoven is on metronome markings. Whether his tempo markings are correct or whether he just put them on there to mess with everyone.
> 
> You have a great set with Blomstedt. The tempos are all moderate and they are all winners. If there is a weak recording in that set, for me it's Symphony 5 which could use a little more fire. But sound quality, orchestra quality, etc. the Blomstedt is a great set.
> 
> I would recommend Chailly's Beethoven cycle. Chailly keeps Beethoven's metronome markings and if we are to believe that this is indeed how Beethoven wanted them, than I believe this is how they should sound. I do not believe you will find a better set for sound quality as well as performance.
> 
> Hogwood uses period instruments and smaller forces. Beethoven was larger than life and always pushing boundaries and I don't believe the smaller forces work as well, especially with the 9th Symphony. The sound is too small wimpy. Paavo Jarvi has a popular set which uses smaller forces with modern instruments and his tempos are in line with Chailly's, however again, especially in the 9th symphony, they just don't have the breath or power that I believe Beethoven wanted us to hear.
> 
> There are of course other popular modern recordings from people like Barenboim who pays no attention to written tempos and ignores other small markings to put his own spin on it which some people also like to hear.
> 
> I like a nice mix with the option of hear Beethoven many different ways. You have a perfect middle of the road set with Blomstedt. I would listen to Chailly and compare the two. If you feel Chailly is too fast, you can try others. Or if you don't like the full sound, then by all means give Hogwood at try.
> 
> Personally I'm happy with Furtwanger, Toscanini, Klemperer, Szell, Bernstein (both New York & Vienna), Karajan (60's & 70's cycles), Kletzki, Bohm, Kempe, Wand, Blomstedt & Chailly. They all offer different views and contrasts and I feel content owning them all.


Damn, your collection is awesome. I think I'll just take all of those, thank you very much.


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## gardibolt

If you want to get close to Beethoven's intentions, you have to take all of the repeats he indicates. They're a vital part of the structure and once he left Bonn he never put in a repeat without a purpose to it. Of all the 25ish cycles I own that I've analyzed so far, only Hogwood and Zinman with the Tonhalle Zurich take every indicated repeat in every symphony (even making allowances for not repeating a Scherzo or Minuet on the da capo, which I understand to have been expected performance practice). The Hogwood does sound a bit thin in the later symphonies, and sometimes Zinman feels like he's about to go entirely off the rails (which offers its own kind of excitement), so choose your poison. 

Of the others, Bernstein with New York takes almost all of the repeats but messes up with the Ninth and maybe one or two others. Toscanini is much better than most, and his tempi anticipate the HIP crowd (on a number of symphonies, the timings for Toscanini with repeats is shorter than Jochum without them!), so he's a good compromise if you don't mind historic sound. Furtwängler and Karajan are downright terrible about this point, which was kind of shocking to me, considering their reputations as Beethoven interpreters. I don't have that new Haitink set, so I don't know whether he takes them all. The Blomstedt the original poster has is actually quite good about the issue, as is the René Leibovitz Reader's Digest set, which is my new favorite cycle. The others are pretty hit and miss. 

Damned few conductors take the repeat in the first movement of the Eroica or the second part of the Scherzo in the Ninth, so if they take those, it's a good bet they take most of the rest of them too.


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## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> The Blomstedt the original poster has is actually quite good about the issue, as is the René Leibovitz Reader's Digest set, which is my new favorite cycle. The others are pretty hit and miss.


I got the Leibowitz cycle for 99 cents as an Amazon download. I recognized it is a good cycle, but I think always favored others because it was a download. There is some psychological thing with having the actual CD set--just me I guess (or are others this way about it too). But I was listening to my Beethoven symphony cycles and just got through the 8th on the Leibowitz cycle and it is very good--perhaps should be my number 1 cycle too.


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## bigshot

try listening to the music instead of looking at the receipt


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## KenOC

bigshot said:


> try listening to the music instead of looking at the receipt


Being a devotee of Cheapism, I not only look at the receipt but frame it and hang it on the wall. Then I listen to the music, sometimes.

I am ashamed to say that by the time I purchased the Leibowitz cycle Florestan refers to, it was $1.09. But my shame is assuaged somewhat because it is now $2.69.


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## SixFootScowl

It's not about the receipt for me. It is the difference between a CD set or electronic downloads, but I think I have gotten over it.


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## SixFootScowl

Wow! Fantastic! They just released a complete Beethoven symphony cycle conducted by Pierre Monteux. I just got the complete cycle but it was two separate DECCA sets and another disc for the Ninth. An Amazon reviewer says this is a remastered set and that the soloists in the Ninth are Elisabeth Söderström, Regina Resnik, Jon Vickers (R.I.P.) and David Ward.


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## Dawood

SalieriIsInnocent said:


> Immerseel's on Anima Eterna is my favorite period set. It's period without sounding too held back, like many period sets. Very stormy, but with more air to breath. I'd recommend playing this set on a high end system to get full advantage of the gut strings. Immerseel is more like if Solti or Karajan conducted a period orchestra.


This is a very interesting thread. And I particularly like this recommendation and the summary. Having just discovered Beethoven's symphonies (through Karajan) I'm very interested in a different spin and will most certainly be eagerly adding Anima Eterna's efforts to my wish list.


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## Guest

The cheapest cycle I own is the Szell/Cleveland cycle - and it is one of my favorites. But the Vanska cycle - on BIS - is the most expensive one I have, is also at the top. Price only affects whether I am going to buy it, or ask for it as a gift.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

Dawood said:


> This is a very interesting thread. And I particularly like this recommendation and the summary. Having just discovered Beethoven's symphonies (through Karajan) I'm very interested in a different spin and will most certainly be eagerly adding Anima Eterna's efforts to my wish list.


Also check out Chailly's recent recording of the Beethoven symphonies. It has replaced Immerseel's as my favourite complete set overall. Immerseel and Gardiner are neck and neck for me with regards to HIP performances though.


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## SixFootScowl

I have a Hanover Band set up on Amazon for sale. Horrible cycle.


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## Itullian

Great set.


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## Pugg

​This is a very good set, also available in a box set :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> ​This is a very good set, also available in a box set :tiphat:


That one being Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, but what about his LSO cycle? The LSO cycle is much more affordable ($30 used vs $100 use on Amazon).


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> That one being Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra, but what about his LSO cycle? The LSO cycle is much more affordable ($30 used vs $100 use on Amazon).


Give me the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra any day of the week :tiphat:


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## SixFootScowl

Pugg said:


> Give me the Royal Concertgebouw orchestra any day of the week :tiphat:


Perhaps there is a little homeland bias in that opinion?

BTW, what do you think of Morten Topp and the Akademisk Orchestra, Copenhagen? I have their Messiah, Israel in Egypt, and Brahms German Requiem. Some of their disks are listed here.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> Perhaps there is a little homeland bias in that opinion?
> 
> BTW, what do you think of Morten Topp and the Akademisk Orchestra, Copenhagen? I have their Messiah, Israel in Egypt, and Brahms German Requiem. Some of their disks are listed here.


 Perhaps a little bit, however they are worldwide famous for the splendid sound and by some critics the best.
Before Vienna and Berlin.

Second question I can't answer, never heard them


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## gellio

My favorite set, without compare, is the Solti set. Wonderful playing by the Chicago forces and the conducting is so passionate. I've never heard a 6th or 9th that compares to Solti's.


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## Lyricus

Anyone care to rank Krips' with LSO or Ormandy's with PSO sets? I have them on LP only, and I haven't had a record player in close to a decade.


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## Charlie Mac

KenOC said:


> I want to put in a plug for Haitink's newer cycle on the LSO (for London Symphony Orchestra) label. Compared with his earlier efforts, these are leaner and more HIP, a bit quicker and more vigorous and with a lot more clarity. But they still have the central European virtues of avoiding show or exaggeration. The recording is superlative.
> 
> The OP wrote, "I'm looking for a set that is close to what Beethoven wrote down, but not necessarily HIP. I want to, as much as possible, be able to hear each instrument clearly." Since this set uses the latest Del Mar edition of the scores, follows Beethoven's metronome marks, and certainly has wonderful clarity, it may fit the OP's needs very well.
> 
> Either way, hugely enjoyable. A contender.


In terms of using the Del Mar editions, this set might claim to do so but Haitink actually avoids some of Del Mar's most noteworthy changes to the score, so in a sense I'd say it's something of an empty claim.

In fact, of the cycles that supposedly use the 'new Del Mar edition' of the score, very few actually follow it to the letter - perhaps only the likes of Immerseel and Mackerras. Others, such as Vanska, Abbado and Haitink, take elements of it but ignore others.

For me, Beethoven symphony recordings are pretty much always a compromise. When you move towards fleeter tempi and more repeats, you tend to lose the grandeur. When you gain grandeur, tempi get slower and repeats are tossed aside like used tissues.

No one recording, let alone entire cycle, gives you everything that Beethoven has to offer. No one makes Beethoven sound as grand or romantic as Karajan does, but his Beethoven sounds nothing like the Beethoven of Gardiner or Herreweghe.

Some cycles try to give you a taste of both worlds, though some might argue that they are in fact giving you the best of neither. By this I mean Chailly, Abbado, Vanska and Haitink.


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## SixFootScowl

gardibolt said:


> If you want to get close to Beethoven's intentions, you have to take all of the repeats he indicates. They're a vital part of the structure and once he left Bonn he never put in a repeat without a purpose to it. Of all the 25ish cycles I own that I've analyzed so far, only Hogwood and Zinman with the Tonhalle Zurich take every indicated repeat in every symphony (even making allowances for not repeating a Scherzo or Minuet on the da capo, which I understand to have been expected performance practice). The Hogwood does sound a bit thin in the later symphonies, and sometimes Zinman feels like he's about to go entirely off the rails (which offers its own kind of excitement), so choose your poison.
> 
> Of the others, Bernstein with New York takes almost all of the repeats but messes up with the Ninth and maybe one or two others. Toscanini is much better than most, and his tempi anticipate the HIP crowd (on a number of symphonies, the timings for Toscanini with repeats is shorter than Jochum without them!), so he's a good compromise if you don't mind historic sound. Furtwängler and Karajan are downright terrible about this point, which was kind of shocking to me, considering their reputations as Beethoven interpreters. I don't have that new Haitink set, so I don't know whether he takes them all. The Blomstedt the original poster has is actually quite good about the issue, as is the René Leibovitz Reader's Digest set, which is my new favorite cycle. The others are pretty hit and miss.
> 
> Damned few conductors take the repeat in the first movement of the Eroica or the second part of the Scherzo in the Ninth, so if they take those, it's a good bet they take most of the rest of them too.


Well I am glad that I got the Zinman cycle and just listened through and like it a lot. I also have the Bernstein NY cycle and may have to revisit it soon.


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## realdealblues

Lyricus said:


> Anyone care to rank Krips' with LSO or Ormandy's with PSO sets? I have them on LP only, and I haven't had a record player in close to a decade.


Krips was always a steady conductor. The LSO wasn't at it's peak at the time he recorded his cycle and most of the transfers I've heard have been pretty mediocre as far a sound quality. There's some good moments but it's not for me a great cycle although you could do far worse if it was your only one.

Ormandy on the other hand I really enjoy and I think was very fine cycle. There seems to be some kind of lower quality attached to Ormandy's name these days that I think is very unjust. He put out some very fine recordings. They may not have the emotional depth of Bernstein or razor sharp discipline of Szell but he was a darn fine conductor. Sound quality is very good and the plushness of those Philadelphia strings really adds it's own special touch. In a way it has the polish of Karajan but with a cooler more moderate temperament. I think it was a fine cycle but it's currently hard to find on CD and if you do it's usually an expensive import. I do keep hoping for a large box set of Ormandy from Sony one day.


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## SixFootScowl

I haven't heard Ormandy's Beethoven symphonies, but of half a dozen Missa Solemnis recordings I have, Ormandy's is my top pick.


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## Lyricus

realdealblues said:


> Krips was always a steady conductor. The LSO wasn't at it's peak at the time he recorded his cycle and most of the transfers I've heard have been pretty mediocre as far a sound quality. There's some good moments but it's not for me a great cycle although you could do far worse if it was your only one.
> 
> Ormandy on the other hand I really enjoy and I think was very fine cycle. There seems to be some kind of lower quality attached to Ormandy's name these days that I think is very unjust. He put out some very fine recordings. They may not have the emotional depth of Bernstein or razor sharp discipline of Szell but he was a darn fine conductor. Sound quality is very good and the plushness of those Philadelphia strings really adds it's own special touch. In a way it has the polish of Karajan but with a cooler more moderate temperament. I think it was a fine cycle but it's currently hard to find on CD and if you do it's usually an expensive import. I do keep hoping for a large box set of Ormandy from Sony one day.


Maybe it's high time to get something that can play these old LPs again.


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## SixFootScowl

So I just ordered the 2002 live Rattle cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic:









Now I see there is a newer, deluxe 2015 cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic:









Did I buy the correct Rattle cycle? I certainly did pricewise (about $12 USD used), but....


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## starthrower

At our age our ears won't get the benefit of spending more money for blu-ray or SACD. Who has an SACD player anyway?


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## Merl

Fritz Kobus said:


> So I just ordered the 2002 live Rattle cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I see there is a newer, deluxe 2015 cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I buy the correct Rattle cycle? I certainly did pricewise (about $12 USD used), but....


Tbh, Fritz, there's little between both Rattle Beethoven cycles. The BPO cycle is brilliantly recorded and played but its a tad micromanaged by Rattle however there's no denying it's very impressive and the packaging is superb. The problem is the price. It cost around £70 when it came out and is still pretty much that price now. You can pick the first VPO set up for a few pounds these days and it's not that much inferior. The 7th in both sets is very good as is the 4th (and the 2nd in the BPO set). You certainly won't be unhappy with the Rattle VPO set. It is still a very good cycle. Don't listen to the Rattle haters, the man knows what he's doing with Beethoven (I even have a set he did with the CBSO and that's good too). Warning: the VPO Pastoral is crap.


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## starthrower

I don't have a problem with Rattle. I have some of his Schoenberg, and Messiaen orchestral recordings and they sound great to my ears. If it weren't for the internet, I doubt I'd be all that picky about any of this stuff. I'd just go to the store and buy some CDs. In fact, I've been on this stupid computer so much the last couple days trying to put together a Presto Classical box set order, that my wife is getting pissed. I'm glad I made up my mind on the Beethoven and Dvorak. I'm getting the Bohm and Barenboim sets, and the Neumann. All done!


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## Kiki

Merl said:


> Fritz Kobus said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I just ordered the 2002 live Rattle cycle with the Vienna Philharmonic:
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> 
> Now I see there is a newer, deluxe 2015 cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic:
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I buy the correct Rattle cycle? I certainly did pricewise (about $12 USD used), but....
> 
> 
> 
> Tbh, Fritz, there's little between both Rattle Beethoven cycles. The BPO cycle is brilliantly recorded and played but its a tad micromanaged by Rattle however there's no denying it's very impressive and the packaging is superb. The problem is the price. It cost around £70 when it came out and is still pretty much that price now. You can pick the first VPO set up for a few pounds these days and it's not that much inferior. The 7th in both sets is very good as is the 4th (and the 2nd in the BPO set). You certainly won't be unhappy with the Rattle VPO set. It is still a very good cycle. Don't listen to the Rattle haters, the man knows what he's doing with Beethoven (I even have a set he did with the CBSO and that's good too). Warning: the VPO Pastoral is crap.
Click to expand...

Both of Rattle's Vienna and Berlin sets are excellent. (I enjoy agile, crisp and shocking Beethoven.)

The Berlin set also includes concert videos and hi-res download codes, if that matters to anyone, though it's really expensive, like all sets released by Berliner Philharmoinker Recordings. (I suspect they must have a motto of releasing collector's items.) The Berlin set does look better than the Vienna set on the bookshelf  , though it is really bulky, and if one plays physical discs, it's cumbersome to get the discs out the package every time.

BTW there's also an earlier Vienna No. 5 recorded in 2000, coupled with Kyung-Wha Chung's Brahms Violin Concerto, that is very similar and also excellent.


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## regnaDkciN

starthrower said:


> At our age our ears won't get the benefit of spending more money for blu-ray or SACD. Who has an SACD player anyway?


_Ahem_...over here! :wave:


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## APL

I cant imagine Beethoven to conduct his symphonies e.g. 5th. 7th. in a slow tempo, like some conductors (Blomsted, Abbado) do . Only such a pace like Karajan, Chailly and like others do. Therefore I do not prefer the rendition that are in slower tempo. 
My favoritcycles are
Karajan BPO 60s
K. Masure Gew.h. 70s
Rattle VPO


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## bigshot

starthrower said:


> At our age our ears won't get the benefit of spending more money for blu-ray or SACD. Who has an SACD player anyway?


I have one. It's pretty irrelevant for stereo, but multichannel is a huge improvement in sound quality no matter how old of a codger you are!


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## 89Koechel

"Warning: the VPO Pastoral is crap." …. Well, if one wants a VPO Pastoral that is definitely NOT crap, you should find the old Monteux recording. The latter has been recommended by different sources, for some decades.


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## 89Koechel

(Szell) - cheapest … probably the most-inexpensive, and a genuine testament to George's way with Beethoven. It's one of the best cycles of all, and unsurpassed. Has anyone ever seen a video of Szell, rehearsing the 5th? It shows how-PRECISE (but not COLD … the latter is one of the words/criticisms leveled against him) he could be, to elicit the results that best-suited his conceptions.


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## SixFootScowl

89Koechel said:


> (Szell) - cheapest … probably the most-inexpensive, and a genuine testament to George's way with Beethoven. It's one of the best cycles of all, and unsurpassed. Has anyone ever seen a video of Szell, rehearsing the 5th? It shows how-PRECISE (but not COLD … the latter is one of the words/criticisms leveled against him) he could be, to elicit the results that best-suited his conceptions.


Can pick up the economy set Szell Conducts Beethoven cheap. Several Amazon sellers with new sets for under $9 USD.


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## jegreenwood

Fritz Kobus said:


> Can pick up the economy set Szell Conducts Beethoven cheap. Several Amazon sellers with new sets for under $9 USD.


Just a heads up on that. Despite the 24 bit mastering logo on the back, this is the same mastering as the 90's era budget discs. I bought it hoping for improved sound, compared it to my "Essential Classics" CDs, and examined the file information with JRiver. They are identical.* I sent it back.

I now have the Szell mega-box and the . . . errrr . . . Japanese SACDs.

*I'm not sure I checked all 9 symphonies.


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## wkasimer

jegreenwood said:


> Just a heads up on that. Despite the 24 bit mastering logo on the back, this is the same mastering as the 90's era budget discs. I bought it hoping for improved sound, compared it to my "Essential Classics" CDs, and examined the file information with JRiver. They are identical.


The sound is better on the Original Jackets set, as well as the recently issued "big box". But how much improvement will depend upon how good one's audio system is.

A lot of those cheap Sony Masters boxes have sonics that are distinctly worse than previous issues. Bruno Walter's Mahler 2, which I've owned in virtually every incarnation issued, sounded just fine until Sony issued the cheap set, which sounds like crap.

Caveat emptor.


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## Merl

I dont have the Szell boxset or the Szell Conducts Beethoven boxset. My copies of Szell's Beethoven symphonies are the single discs put out on Sony Essential Classics and they sound fine to me.


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## Frost15

Bumping this thread as a way to introduce myself after being a lurker of this awesome forums for months. 
I'm surprised no one mentioned Mariss Jansons's "Beethoven: The Symphonies - Reflections". It's become one of my fav and the extra pieces are pretty awesome if you are into modern neo-classical. Absolutely recommended.


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## wkasimer

Frost15 said:


> Bumping this thread as a way to introduce myself after being a lurker of this awesome forums for months.
> I'm surprised no one mentioned Mariss Jansons's "Beethoven: The Symphonies - Reflections". It's become one of my fav and the extra pieces are pretty awesome if you are into modern neo-classical. Absolutely recommended.


Wecome!

I like Jansons' Beethoven - solid, central recordings, well played and recorded. The problem is the modern pieces that are interspersed.

I have never understood the rationale for such things. If I'm in the mood to hear Beethoven, I'm not likely to be in the mood to hear an atonal modern work after a ten second pause. And if I'm in the mood for something modern, I really doubt that I want to slog through a Beethoven symphony beforehand.


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## premont

wkasimer said:


> I like Jansons' Beethoven - solid, central recordings, well played and recorded. The problem is the modern pieces that are interspersed.
> 
> I have never understood the rationale for such things. If I'm in the mood to hear Beethoven, I'm not likely to be in the mood to hear an atonal modern work after a ten second pause. And if I'm in the mood for something modern, I really doubt that I want to slog through a Beethoven symphony beforehand.


This way of planning is unfortunately becoming more and more common. Quite recent examples are Kloeckner's recording of Bach's cello suites and Thomas Dausgaard's Brandenburg project. Probably the labels (or artists) think the CDs sell better in this way. To be honest I always skip the new music tracks.


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## JTS

wkasimer said:


> Wecome!
> 
> I like Jansons' Beethoven - solid, central recordings, well played and recorded. The problem is the modern pieces that are interspersed.
> 
> I have never understood the rationale for such things. If I'm in the mood to hear Beethoven, I'm not likely to be in the mood to hear an atonal modern work after a ten second pause. And if I'm in the mood for something modern, I really doubt that I want to slog through a Beethoven symphony beforehand.


I agree. Isabel Faust recorded Beethoven violin concerto and coupled it with the Berg which frankly I have never been able to like. So half the disc is unplayed. I have no idea why she felt that someone who enjoys Beethoven will also enjoy a very modern atonal piece


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## wkasimer

premont said:


> This way of planning is unfortunately becoming more and more common. Quite recent examples are Kloeckner's recording of Bach's cello suites


Also recordings of the cello suites by David Geringas and Gerard Causse (the latter on viola).

An early example was a set of late Mozart symphonies with Dohnanyi and the Cleveland Orchestra, interspersed with music of Anton Webern. Decca has since issued the Webern separately, but the Mozart appears to be unreissued.


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## Kiki

Frost15 said:


> Bumping this thread as a way to introduce myself after being a lurker of this awesome forums for months.
> I'm surprised no one mentioned Mariss Jansons's "Beethoven: The Symphonies - Reflections". It's become one of my fav and the extra pieces are pretty awesome if you are into modern neo-classical. Absolutely recommended.


Welcome to TC, Frost15!

Mariss Jansons' Bavarian Beethoven has been mentioned elsewhere in TC. I think it is classy, sensitive, big-band Beethoven done right.

I bought the version of this set that contains only the Beethoven symphonies, so I don't have the problem that others might have with those modern pieces as coupling/concert-planning/fill-ups whatever the marketing purpose. Having said that, if I had got the version that contains these modern pieces, I wouldn't mind either as I can always programme my music player to play only the symphonies (or any of these modern pieces).


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## Kreisler jr

Gielen did it with Mahler on Hänssler but of course the difference was usually not that stark and the modern pieces clearly "fillers". He also combined Schubert's Rosamunde music with Webern and apparently in concert inserted Schoenberg's "Survivor" between 3rd and 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th which I really find a ham-fisted way to "resist" the 9th (or more precisely a primitive humanitarian reading of the piece).
I have no problems with Berg and Beethoven violin concertos on one CD. I frequently have to put up with Bruch, Glasunov or other stuff I don't care for because the violinist found it to be a good filler for a concerto I wanted...


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## wkasimer

Kreisler jr said:


> Gielen did it with Mahler on Hänssler


When Hanssler boxed Gielen's Mahler, they omitted all of the extra stuff.


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## Frost15

I actually like to be surprised with weird pieces of music as interludes between symphonies or works of the same kind in a compilation, it's a way to break from the past huge piece into the next, kind of like ginger in japanese cuisine, but if I am ever not in the mood I'll just do as Kiki said and program the player to play only what I would like to hear


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## Michael122

Just received Karajan's 1963 LVB symphonies, purchased based upon comments here on TC.
You guys were NOT kidding.
In a word, the performances/musicianship on these discs are STELLAR!
Well above present day orchestras/conductors.
Remastering effort by DG is excellent = a very clean sound.
Now intend to sell ALL my other LVB symphony CDs.
Highly recommend. 
Because this TC recommendation worked out so well, will pursue LVB symphonies by Szell, Furtwängler, and Monteux.


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## SixFootScowl

Michael122 said:


> Just received Karajan's 1963 LVB symphonies, purchased based upon comments here on TC.
> You guys were NOT kidding.
> In a word, the performances/musicianship on these discs are STELLAR!
> Well above present day orchestras/conductors.
> Remastering effort by DG is excellent = a very clean sound.
> Now intend to sell ALL my other LVB symphony CDs.
> Highly recommend.
> Because this TC recommendation worked out so well, will pursue LVB symphonies by Szell, Furtwängler, and Monteux.


There are quite a lot of recordings from Monteux, but no complete cycle with one orchestra.

I have his Boston Orchestra recordings (2356 and 9), NDR 92&), San Francisco (4&8), 5 single symphony recordings from miscellaneous orchestras, and the most popular set the VPO-LSO set, which includes bonus recordings of Symphony 3 (Concertgebouworkest) and a rehersal session for the Ninth:









Also consider this conductor's cycle:


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## JTS

Michael122 said:


> Just received Karajan's 1963 LVB symphonies, purchased based upon comments here on TC.
> You guys were NOT kidding.
> In a word, the performances/musicianship on these discs are STELLAR!
> Well above present day orchestras/conductors.
> Remastering effort by DG is excellent = a very clean sound.
> Now intend to sell ALL my other LVB symphony CDs.
> Highly recommend.
> Because this TC recommendation worked out so well, will pursue LVB symphonies by Szell, Furtwängler, and Monteux.


The sect was actually the first purpose recorded set of Beethoven symphonies ever released as one set. The cost was phenomenal in 1963 but the discs were best sellers and obviously have remained so. Some tremendous performances with the BPO on the freshest form. The 1977 set is also worth investigating for a superb ninth among other things and some added repeats.


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## Michael122

SixFootScowl said:


> I have his Boston Orchestra recordings (2356 and 9), NDR 92&), San Francisco (4&8), 5 single symphony recordings from miscellaneous orchestras, and the most popular set the VPO-LSO set, which includes bonus recordings of Symphony 3 (Concertgebouworkest) and a rehersal session for the Ninth


Have ordered this one, and if memory serves, did that largely influenced by your {as well as others} previous post regarding this particular cycle.


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## AndorFoldes

Michael122 said:


> Just received Karajan's 1963 LVB symphonies, purchased based upon comments here on TC.
> You guys were NOT kidding.
> In a word, the performances/musicianship on these discs are STELLAR!
> Well above present day orchestras/conductors.
> Remastering effort by DG is excellent = a very clean sound.
> Now intend to sell ALL my other LVB symphony CDs.
> Highly recommend.
> Because this TC recommendation worked out so well, will pursue LVB symphonies by Szell, Furtwängler, and Monteux.


Wow! Sounds like you are really convinced by that cycle. Out of curiosity, what remastering do you have, and what are the cycles that you intend to get rid of?

I wouldn't say that present day orchestras and conductors are below Karajan, but different. Pretty much everyone plays this music more or less historically informed now. Typical recent examples are Chailly and Blomstedt, both with Gewandhausorchester Leipzig.


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## Chatellerault

The recently deceased Haitink has recorded an excellent Beethoven set with LSO (2005-2006). It's the kind of mix that I appreciate for Beethoven: modern instruments and a rather Romantic conception overall, but clearly influenced by performance practices from the last 50 years (HIP and so on... Harnoncourt, for example, was often a guest conductor with Concertgebouw when Haitink was there. And we can guess Haitink and the London musicians have learned something from other HIP performers).

If we compare, for example, the tempos in the Haitink's 2000's Beethoven, they're faster than in his 1980's recordings. That's the opposite of his Mahler, that get slower and more solemn in his senior years (with Bavarian RSO and CSO, compared to his earlier Concertgebouw and Berlin Mahler)

Also the percussions are crisp and well-recorded in his LSO Beethoven set, not buried beneath the strings like most recordings before the 1990s (e.g. young Haitink, Karajan, Bernstein etc)

Now I mention percussion, one Beethoven set that I like and with potent, well-recorded percussion sound is Klemperer/Philharmonia (1950s-60s)


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## Brahmsianhorn

I just listened to the Bohm/VPO all the way through and still find it one of the most consistent cycles out there. The two main issues are a slow basic tempo for the 5th and the finale of the 9th. But 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 8, as well as the overtures, are all top notch examples of the European tradition in excellent sound with glorious playing from the VPO. 4 may well be the reference version of this symphony next to Karajan ‘62.


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## Brahmsian Colors

I still consider Bohm's interpretation of the Vienna Philharmonic "Eroica" one of my favorites. This is based in part on his rendering of nuances, especially in the first and fourth movements. But, it is in the funeral march where he really scores. While Bruno Walter is particularly effective at conveying the solemnity of the occasion, Bohm digs deeper, and delivers an even more thoroughly felt combination of seriousness, tragedy and nobility.


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