# Tristan's love potion



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

What is the actual purpose of the Love potion in Tristan ans Isolde? They already love each other before the potion. Maybe it's like a double martini or pan galactic gargle blaster, it removes the inhibitions


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## eorrific (May 14, 2011)

It serves its purpose in delivering about 20 additional minutes of sublime music.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

That and one must understand how society lived in those days.

Nowadays we assume that everyone loves/marries with whom he/she is in love with. Since the Romantic period that has been assumed for sure.

Before Queen Victoria's marriage, European noble marriages were arranged without love having to do with it. Also we must think that men and women weren't equals. It was quite accepted noblemen having mistresses but not for women likewise (there are exceptions).

Also another important matter was the lineage. Isolde was a princess to be married with a king. It would be unthinkable someone in a higher social status to marry with someone with a lower one.

Also although Tristan loved Isolde, he also loved and had a enormous respect for his uncle. To choose to love Isolde, it would break King Marke's heart, destroy King Marke's credibility before his people in Cornwall (which could lead to the downfall of the then recently established country).

If Tristan would follow his feelings, all the land would suffer and he would suffer beacuse of its suffering.

Love potion frees Tristan from his earthly duties and symbolizes our Id (Freudian's term). We in life, because we are bent to it, must most of the times to choose rationally rather than emotionally. If you can live according with your desire and your will, good for you, but the majority of people doesn't have the same luck.


So the love potion, from a simple love story, simbolizes more than alcohol.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

I think it was rather like a Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster. I definitely think there were some emotions there to begin with.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

drpraetorus said:


> What is the actual purpose of the Love potion in Tristan ans Isolde? They already love each other before the potion. Maybe it's like a double martini or pan galactic gargle blaster, it removes the inhibitions


Tristan had been sent to bring Isolde ,the intended bride of King Mark ,from Ireland to Cornwall.
Isolde recognises Tristan as the knight who slew her betrothed and orders her companion Brangane to prepare poison so that she may gain revenge.
But a mix-up occurs and Tristan and Isolde end up drinking a love potion.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dionisio said:


> That and one must understand how society lived in those days.
> 
> Nowadays we assume that everyone loves/marries with whom he/she is in love with. Since the Romantic period that has been assumed for sure.
> 
> ...


Do you actually know the opera?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

moody said:


> Tristan had been sent to bring Isolde ,the intended bride of King Mark ,from Ireland to Cornwall.
> Isolde recognises *Tristan as the knight who slew her betrothed and orders her companion Brangane to prepare poison so that she may gain revenge.*
> But a mix-up occurs and Tristan and Isolde end up drinking a love potion.


There is a twist in there, Isolde first met a disguised Tristan wounded from battle and she used her potions to cure him later to learn he was the one who killed her future husband Morold. She was about to kill Tristan with his own sword but when eyes met she had pity on him and spared his life under the condition he leave and never return.....

Not only did Tristan break his promise and returned but under the most humiliating circumstance of forcing Isolde to marry the enemy king .....a double vile insult. Thus the poison potion was to exact revenge on Tristan and to free her from the vile duty of marrying the king against her wishes

The ironic twist of mistakenly both drinking love potion and the further downward spiral of this doomed love affair are all tied to Wagners fascination with Schopenhauer philosophy and unhappiness caused by pursuing unacheivable desires.....


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> There is a twist in there, Isolde first met a disguised Tristan wounded from battle and she used her potions to cure him later to learn he was the one who killed her future husband Morold. She was about to kill Tristan with his own sword but when eyes met she had pity on him and spared his life under the condition he leave and never return.....
> 
> Not only did Tristan break his promise and returned but under the most humiliating circumstance of forcing Isolde to marry the enemy king .....a double vile insult. Thus the poison potion was to exact revenge on Tristan and to free her from the vile duty of marrying the king against her wishes
> 
> The ironic twist of mistakenly both drinking love potion and the further downward spiral of this doomed love affair are all tied to Wagners fascination with Schopenhauer philosophy and unhappiness caused by pursuing unacheivable desires.....


Couple comments:

I believe Isolde and Tristan fell in love to each other at the moment when Isolde tried to kill the disguised Tantris (the name Tristan called himself at that time) for revenge. But they never expressed the love to each other.

The reason why Tristan persuaded King Mark to marry Isolde, and voluntarily to go get her was really a puzzle. Perhaps he missed her so much and did not realized the consequence.

So when their journey came close to the end, both realized the hopeless reality. I believe they really loved and hated each other at that moment. (Isolde was more hateful because she felt Tristan betrayed her by offering her to the King.) That was why both were willing to commit to death. Remember: Isolde ordered Tristan to drink the poison. Tristan, with all hopes lost, did not hesitate to obey. Isolde, also wanted to die with him, took the poison (potion) immediately as well.

Both were thinking they were going to die, so nothing mattered anymore: they were finally free! Free to express their love at last!! When the love potion took effects, they did not care anything any more! They were embracing each other, dying together, but at least they were able to express the love to each other! They did not realize the switch of the potion until they could not separate from each other, which eventually led to the sad tragedy!

So love potion is a release of their free will, both were free to express their true feelings to each other, before their presumed death.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

drpraetorus said:


> What is the actual purpose of the Love potion in Tristan ans Isolde? They already love each other before the potion. Maybe it's like a double martini or pan galactic gargle blaster, it removes the inhibitions


I can't make the argument that Tristan & Isolde's love is "unconsummatable" without the love potion. Without the love potion, we have a mere Romeo and Juliet story (been there, done that), not the exodus of the perceived maximal limit of human emotion itself.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

moody said:


> Do you actually know the opera?


Why do you ask?


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

powerbooks said:


> The reason why Tristan persuaded King Mark to marry Isolde, and voluntarily to go get her was really a puzzle. Perhaps he missed her so much and did not realized the consequence.


Tristan went to get Isolde for King Mark for a couple of reasons. One is that people around King Mark were beginning to feel suspicion of Tristan, since Tristan was the next in succession to Mark's throne. This suspicion was fostered by Melot, who was scheming to become next in line himself. Tristan wanted to prove that his friendship for Mark was untainted by any such self-interest, so he convinced Mark that he should marry Isolde, who would then become next in line to succeed to the throne. Tristan was then planning to go away and never be around Cornwall again. This knightly notion of self-sacrifice for the ideal of honor can also be seen in the fact that Tristan was willing to kill himself by drinking the poison after Isolde accused him of dealing with her deceitfully. Tristan was therefore willing to take this plan of sacrifice to the ultimate extent of dying for it.

So that's one reason. And a second reason that dovetails with that, is that by marrying Isolde, Mark would be re-asserting power over the newly-chastened Ireland. Cornwall would then be subsuming Ireland under its power by solidifying the connection with a marriage. So this is presumably why Tristan was able to convince Mark that he should marry Isolde.

And yes, while Tristan and Isolde secretly loved each other before either of them drank the love potion, this love would not have come to anything had they not drunk the potion. They would have died if they had been successful in their initial attempt to do away with themselves. On a deep, thematic level, the drinking of the love potion signifies that the lovers lose conscious control of their desires, falling under the spell of their drives.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

dionisio said:


> Why do you ask?


Because your rather rambling post seems to have little connection to the opera itself.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Let's discuss this without making reference to other members' posting styles or and without putting others down.


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## Bardamu (Dec 12, 2011)

It tastes good.
A fine Bordeaux.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Glissando said:


> Tristan went to get Isolde for King Mark for a couple of reasons. One is that people around King Mark were beginning to feel suspicion of Tristan, since Tristan was the next in succession to Mark's throne. This suspicion was fostered by Melot, who was scheming to become next in line himself. Tristan wanted to prove that his friendship for Mark was untainted by any such self-interest, so he convinced Mark that he should marry Isolde, who would then become next in line to succeed to the throne. Tristan was then planning to go away and never be around Cornwall again. This knightly notion of self-sacrifice for the ideal of honor can also be seen in the fact that Tristan was willing to kill himself by drinking the poison after Isolde accused him of dealing with her deceitfully. Tristan was therefore willing to take this plan of sacrifice to the ultimate extent of dying for it.
> 
> So that's one reason. And a second reason that dovetails with that, is that by marrying Isolde, Mark would be re-asserting power over the newly-chastened Ireland. Cornwall would then be subsuming Ireland under its power by solidifying the connection with a marriage. So this is presumably why Tristan was able to convince Mark that he should marry Isolde.
> 
> And yes, while Tristan and Isolde secretly loved each other before either of them drank the love potion, this love would not have come to anything had they not drunk the potion. They would have died if they had been successful in their initial attempt to do away with themselves. On a deep, thematic level, the drinking of the love potion signifies that the lovers lose conscious control of their desires, falling under the spell of their drives.


Very good analysis.

However, the first reason was not totally convincing. If Tristan wanted to show loyalty, he would persuade the King to marry any woman, not necessarily Isolde. But I think your second reasoning explained part of this question.

Still, if Tristan wanted to leave, there was no need to die. I think his death wish was really because of the prospect of Isolde marrying the King, which would make his own love for Isolde impossible and intolerable. Same was true to Isolde's own death wish. They both secretly loved each other but were too proud (with honor) to admit openly, even using hate as an excuse to not seeing or talking to each other. Sounds familiar to all those boys and girls in love?

So, psychologically, "this love would not have come to anything had they not drunk the potion" was a catch-22 statement. Yes, the love would not explode without drinking the potion; but no, the love would have exploded even if it was a real poison but a true poison. Both of them believed the sudden feeling of love was due to the effect of poison. However, thinking they were dying, both of them did not care anymore, and let the true love explode after all the suppression and depression!

That's another aspect of the power of love and death.

"They would have died if they had been successful in their initial attempt to do away with themselves" is really an understatement.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

powerbooks said:


> Couple comments:
> 
> I believe Isolde and Tristan fell in love to each other at the moment when Isolde tried to kill the disguised Tantris (the name Tristan called himself at that time) for revenge.* But they never expressed the love to each other*.
> 
> ...


I think people are imagining a prior "love affair" between Tristan and Isolde that is not really evidenced in libretto.....

There was some emotional connection or strange pity in that she did not kill him right away after discovering his true identity when she treated his wounds, a oversight she later regretted. She took great risk in healing and and allowing the enemy to return home and feel he owes her great debt. If there was any romantic/physical connection it is not expressly detailed

What is mentioned in great abundance in act 1 libretto is how furious Isolde is with the cruel betrayal of Tristan after the mercy and kindness extended to him, she is rewarded with vassal bondage to Cornwall and being offered as tribute to its king, she wishes a storm would arise and kill all on the ship including the sailors singing songs mocking her compromised servitude

The reason Tristan fears drinking atonement (being poisoned) with Isolde is not because they love each other so much and cannot be apart, but because he has so cruely betrayed her kindness and feel tremendous guilt....remember prior to drinking he offers his sword to her to extract revenge confirming his great sense of guilt (including brutal killing of her future husband)


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

There is also Brangäne's role in the whole love potion episode. This was no simple mix-up; Brangäne couldn't bring herself to obey Isolde and allow the princess to kill herself by drinking the poisonous concoction. Instead, the devoted lady-in-waiting deliberately substituted the love potion -- only later to realize the damage she'd done.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> I think people are imagining a prior "love affair" between Tristan and Isolde that is not really evidenced in libretto.....
> 
> There was some emotional connection or strange pity in that she did not kill him right away after discovering his true identity when she treated his wounds, a oversight she later regretted. She took great risk in healing and and allowing the enemy to return home and feel he owes her great debt. If there was any romantic/physical connection it is not expressly detailed
> 
> What is mentioned in great abundance in act 1 libretto is how furious Isolde is with the cruel betrayal of Tristan after the mercy and kindness extended to him, she is rewarded with vassal bondage to Cornwall and being offered as tribute to its king, she wishes a storm would arise and kill all on the ship including the sailors singing songs mocking her compromised servitude


Of course it was not in the real opera. We need another Ring like cycle if you want to spell out everything. 

But T&I is a legend, and the secret love was there.

Why was Isolde angry and felt betrayed? The marriage to King is not what she wanted, so you tell me what did she want as reward from Tristan?


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

powerbooks said:


> Of course it was not in the real opera. We need another Ring like cycle if you want to spell out everything.
> 
> *But T&I is a legend, and the secret love was there.*
> 
> Why was Isolde angry and felt betrayed? The marriage to King is not what she wanted, so you tell me what did she want as reward from Tristan?


There seem to be several variations over many centuries to basic Tristan and Isolde tale depending on author literary source etc, I am just going by the story as presented by Wagner for this opera

The presence of Isolde's great anger does not prove a secret love affair, but as indicated in libretto extreme sense of betrayal by someone who should owe her great debt of gratitude for her exceptional acts of compassion and mercy....especially under the circumstances.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

MAuer said:


> There is also Brangäne's role in the whole love potion episode. * This was no simple mix-up*; Brangäne couldn't bring herself to obey Isolde and allow the princess to kill herself by drinking the poisonous concoction. Instead, the devoted lady-in-waiting deliberately substituted the love potion -- only later to realize the damage she'd done.


I got that sense also, that the "accidental" mix-up in potions may have been weakness on the part of Brangane to carry out the true wishes of Isolde thinking she was helping by doing just the opposite


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

powerbooks said:


> Still, if Tristan wanted to leave, there was no need to die. I think his death wish was really because of the prospect of Isolde marrying the King, which would make his own love for Isolde impossible and intolerable. Same was true to Isolde's own death wish. They both secretly loved each other but were too proud (with honor) to admit openly, even using hate as an excuse to not seeing or talking to each other.


I think it is possible that Tristan decided to drink the poison because he could not bear the thought of living apart from Isolde. However, I don't think this is likely. Tristan in Act 1 is a very repressed person, who only acts on motives of supposed loyalty and proper behavior. I interpret his decision to drink the poison as a knightly admission of guilt for having killed Morold and then absconding with Isolde. In a strange way, Tristan is trying the utmost to live up to his knightly ideal for himself. With Isolde, it's different. She is not repressed in Act 1. She admits to Brangane that she loves Tristan and also hates him for having done what he did.


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## Glissando (Nov 25, 2011)

DarkAngel said:


> I think people are imagining a prior "love affair" between Tristan and Isolde that is not really evidenced in libretto.....
> 
> There was some emotional connection or strange pity in that she did not kill him right away after discovering his true identity when she treated his wounds, a oversight she later regretted. She took great risk in healing and and allowing the enemy to return home and feel he owes her great debt. If there was any romantic/physical connection it is not expressly detailed
> 
> ...


There wasn't a 'love affair' between the two, but there are feelings of connection between the two before either of them drink the love potion. That's all I'm saying. Evidence: When Tristan shouts "Isolde!" after the first time Brangane comes to him on the ship, telling him that her lady has a message to convey to him -- and Wagner returns to the same music that he uses when Isolde describes the time she looked into Tristan's eyes and then dropped the sword with which she was about to kill him. It's the melting, soft love music that comes more into play in Act 2. Also, when Isolde said she wanted Tristan to return to Cornwall and never come back, 'so that I would not keep being bothered by his gaze.'

It makes more sense for there to be these feelings prior to any drinking of the love potion. If the love potion were the only thing linking the two, then this would be a story about an unfortunate twist of fate instead of being a metaphor for love in general.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

DarkAngel said:


> There seem to be several variations over many centuries to basic Tristan and Isolde tale depending on author literary source etc, I am just going by the story as presented by Wagner for this opera
> 
> The presence of Isolde's great anger does not prove a secret love affair, but as indicated in libretto extreme sense of betrayal by someone who should owe her great debt of gratitude for her exceptional acts of compassion and mercy....especially under the circumstances.


Sure, there are variations of the legend, but you have to put into the content of Wanger's real life crisis, and the background story (historical facts) behind the birth of the greatest romantic opera.

To deny the existence of the love between T and I before the love potion is like to deny Wagner's affair with Mathilde.

You can't ignore it.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

Glissando said:


> There wasn't a 'love affair' between the two, but there are feelings of connection between the two before either of them drink the love potion. That's all I'm saying. Evidence: When Tristan shouts "Isolde!" after the first time Brangane comes to him on the ship, telling him that her lady has a message to convey to him -- and Wagner returns to the same music that he uses when Isolde describes the time she looked into Tristan's eyes and then dropped the sword with which she was about to kill him. It's the melting, soft love music that comes more into play in Act 2. Also, when Isolde said she wanted Tristan to return to Cornwall and never come back, 'so that I would not keep being bothered by his gaze.'
> 
> It makes more sense for there to be these feelings prior to any drinking of the love potion. If the love potion were the only thing linking the two, then this would be a story about an unfortunate twist of fate instead of being a metaphor for love in general.


There were "love", no "affair", before the potion, to be precise. They are too noble and honorable to do anything without the death prospect to free themselves!


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

Fascinating question and discussion. Well done everyone. I probably need to see a few more T&I's to absorb all the layers and implications, but I've come to see the love potion as a weak point in the story, a needless introduction of a supernatural plot device in an otherwise superlatively human story.

This (and the 20 minutes of music wisecrack) is pretty close to my current view:


powerbooks said:


> Yes, the love would not explode without drinking the potion; but no, the love would have exploded even if it was a real poison but a true poison. Both of them believed the sudden feeling of love was due to the effect of poison. However, thinking they were dying, both of them did not care anymore, and let the true love explode after all the suppression and depression!


Even if the love potion was just ma's homebrew herbal hooch, the belief that it was poison had a kind of erotic placebo effect.

Or perhaps the point is that the love potion was just a slower-acting version of the death potion.


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## powerbooks (Jun 30, 2012)

We are talking about the secret love between T and I here, not an "affair". This is a huge difference!

No matter how do you define "affair", there was no "affair" between the two. But the love was surely started when her eyes met his gaze. 

IMO, the "love potion" is the central piece of the story, and critical for Wagner's music, which allowed him to explore the magic love through tremendous dashing reality! Without the love potion, both would have died, and no more love to be expressed and exploded. Everything would have lost! How many time did it happen in real human history, can you imagine???

I first got hooked to this opera when I was in college, and was introduced to a doctoral dissertation on comparison of Tristan und Isolde and Pelléas et Mélisande! Still remember the goose bumps when I heard, for the first time, Isolde's first word above the chord: "Tristan......"


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

moody said:


> Because your rather rambling post seems to have little connection to the opera itself.


moody, for the best this conversation ceases here.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

As DarkAngel mentioned, the legend of Tristan and Isolde had been in existence for centuries before Wagner used it as the basis for one of his operas, and the love potion was evidently a critical part of that legend. The title of Donizetti's _L'Elisir d'Amore _is actually a reference to it -- or to the alcoholic concoction Dulcamara convinces Nemorino is the love potion that Tristan and Isolde used. The latter gets the idea when he listens to Adina reading the story of "_Tristano e Isotta_" near the beginning of the opera.
I think Wagner probably included the potion in his opera simply because it was an essential part of the old tale, and couldn't very well have been dispensed with.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Pan-Galactic Gargle Blaster


Sorry, just wanted to see it again.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Sorry, just wanted to see it again.


Read this and you can see it lots:


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## principe (Sep 3, 2012)

Love is a decision-making process. One does not love without making the critical decision at the opportune time. In the case of "Tristan und Isolde", the love potion represents this decision both lovers have to make. It might even represent the marriage that was never meant to happen.
However, Wagner's music is so transcendental that such a fuss about the potion can only distract rather than helping us to indulge in this immense _Gesamtwerk_ and in this superb and complex music, in particular.

Principe


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Read this and you can see it lots:


Really?? Damn! I was sure it was an opera board neologism.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Really?? Damn! I was sure it was an opera board neologism.


Nope. A very common drink in the Hitchhiker universe.



> The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy also mentions alcohol. It says that the best drink in existence is the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster, the effect of which is like having your brains smashed out with a slice of lemon wrapped round a large gold brick.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aksel said:


> Nope. A very common drink in the Hitchhiker universe.


:lol: Thanks for the explanation. A condition all opera lovers secretly aspire to!


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> :lol: Thanks for the explanation. A condition all opera lovers secretly aspire to!


Although I think it could (and should) be used to great effect on opera boards.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Who loves the duet after they take the potion? God that is sublime and wayyy too short. Bad Wagner not being long-winded enough.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

It's a good scene though.

Men: Hail King Marke!

Brangane: Oh **** oh **** oh ****!

Tristan & Isolde: And not a single **** was given.

Men: Hail King Marke!


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

Glissando said:


> Tristan went to get Isolde for King Mark for a couple of reasons. One is that people around King Mark were beginning to feel suspicion of Tristan, since Tristan was the next in succession to Mark's throne. This suspicion was fostered by Melot, who was scheming to become next in line himself. Tristan wanted to prove that his friendship for Mark was untainted by any such self-interest, so he convinced Mark that he should marry Isolde, who would then become next in line to succeed to the throne. Tristan was then planning to go away and never be around Cornwall again. This knightly notion of self-sacrifice for the ideal of honor can also be seen in the fact that Tristan was willing to kill himself by drinking the poison after Isolde accused him of dealing with her deceitfully. Tristan was therefore willing to take this plan of sacrifice to the ultimate extent of dying for it.
> 
> So that's one reason. And a second reason that dovetails with that, is that by marrying Isolde, Mark would be re-asserting power over the newly-chastened Ireland. Cornwall would then be subsuming Ireland under its power by solidifying the connection with a marriage. So this is presumably why Tristan was able to convince Mark that he should marry Isolde.


Your explanation makes good sense to me. I have to offer another; emotional rather than political:

After Isolde has healed Tristan, and sent him back to Kornwall, he finds himself hopelessly in love with her, in spite of the distance. Given his guilt and debt towards her, and the humiliations he has inflicted upon her, his sense for justice and honor tell him that there is no way for him to ever try and realize this love.

Yet this love is overbearingly strong and threatens to make him lose control. So how to keep this love in check? There's only one sentiment that he believes could hold him back: his relentless dedication to, and respect for, King Marke. If Isolde married King Marke, she would be terminally unattainable for him. (Besides, the two most beloved persons of his would each gain a worthy mate, and they could have a natural heir together - Tristan is broken and would not assume the throne).

Seems like the perfect solution. But Marke doesn't even have an inclination ever to marry again. Tristan has to keep increasing pressure. Only after he threatens to leave court and country for good, Marke finally gives in.

But as we see, things turn out differently. On the ship, Isolde demands that they together drink _Sühnetrank_ (drink of atonement), or she won't enter Kornwall. Seeing and acknowledging her rage, Tristan drops his plan, and accepts whatever her verdict is. They drink what they both believe is lethal poison. But they don't die. After that, both of their behavior is drastically changed. They no longer seem to care for categories of honor, loyalty, or duty, and follow only their love.

What has happened? Surviving what you believe must be your death is a rather traumatic experience. It alone can make you re-evaluate your live and recognize the essential.

But Brangäne tells us that what they drank was the love potion. Was that drink the cause for their transformation? Or, asked differently: Had nothing happened on the ship, and had Tristan and Isolde seen each other at Markes's court on a day-to-day basis - would they be able to suppress their feelings?
_
Ungeminnt
den hehrsten Mann​stets mir nah zu sehen, -
wie könnt ich die Qual bestehen?

Unbeloved​seeing always near to me
the most noble man, -​how could I stand the torment?​_Isolde knew that this wasn't going to work. She would rather turn to drastic measures.

So, what does the love potion actually do? At the most, it speeds up the events that would have happened in time at the court anyway. (Yes folks, imagine! Wagner's speeding up things!)


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