# Opera you acknowledge to be great but can never get into



## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

I would love to know if you happen to have any opera you acknowledge to be great but can never get into!

For me, they are:

1/ Mozart's *Don Giovanni*. Mozart is definitely my most favorite composer (and opera composer) ever. I almost worship Cosi fan tutte- for me the most elegant, humane and wittiest opera ever composed. I adore Figaro, the Flute and even back to his earlier works like Idomeneo and Die Entführung. But somehow I can't fully appreciate Don. The music and the way he portrays the characters are sublime, but somehow when putting everything together, I find it too long and too boring 

2/Verdi's *Aida* Incredible music, but I feel that the characters are kind of two-dimensional and the entire opera not...moving enough. I even enjoy his less famous works like Simon Boccanegra, Stiffelio, Luisa Miller etc. much better.

3/Wagner's *Das Rheingold*. While I love the rest of the Ring, I just don't know why I hate Das Rheingold so much.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

"Rheingold" is a neuter gender word. Das, not der. 

I agree about Aida, and I would also include La Traviata. Verdi really has talent for writing perfect music to accompany everything on the stage, but the story itself seems a tad lacking or perhaps it's told just a little too plainly.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Fixed. Thanks.

La Traviata is my most favorite opera of Verdi. It find it more "verismo" than any verismo operas. The music has done so much that it can save any performance with a very bad soprano (although somehow Anna Netrebko still managed to ruin it for me, but maybe it's because I hate her )


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I've yet to encounter such. If I don't like it, it can't be "great", can it?


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I accept that pretty much all of them are likely great, but I haven't ever got into any except: Wagner's Parsifal, Berg's two, Bartók's Herzog, Schönberg's Moses und Aron, Zimmermann's Die Soldaten. I guess I know Purcell's Dido and Aeneas a bit, but I wasn't quite as taken by it the last time I heard it as I had expected to be. I don't really know any beyond those.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm reminded of Ned Rorem's essay on _Carmen_, in which he analyzes its wonderful orchestral felicities and concludes by saying "I like everything about _Carmen_ but it."


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

I am left rather cold by Norma. Not really that I don't like it at all, but I can never see what it is that makes it a firm favourite with many opera lovers. Same with Aida. On the other hand Don Giovanni is one of my favourite operas, he he.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

mamascarlatti said:


> I am left rather cold by Norma. Not really that I don't like it at all, but I can never see what it is that makes it a firm favourite with many opera lovers. Same with Aida. On the other hand Don Giovanni is one of my favourite operas, he he.


Amazing how many people on this forum are cool toward _Aida_. It has such imaginative, beautiful music. Too much Egyptology? The characters just don't quite live the way they do in some of Verdi's other operas, except maybe Amneris.

I'm with you on _Norma_ except when Callas is Norma. Without her, I still love some of the melodies but wouldn't listen to the whole work or go to see it. Maybe Ponselle would've done it for me too. Sutherland definitely doesn't. But that's another subject...


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Oh I agree. I forgot Norma... I think Norma is only good to listen to because of Callas :-s


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I love NORMA, but perhaps that's a given considering my screen name. I can definitely hear why it's generally considered the pinnacle of bel canto opera.

At one time I would have said that Verdi's IL TROVATORE is the one opera of his I've heard that I can't get into, but that opinion has changed in the past year. There was also a time when I _respected_ OTELLO and FALSTAFF more than I _loved_ them, but I can now say that I love OTELLO and that I _like _FALSTAFF, even though I think it's more brilliant than heartwarming and that Verdi perhaps wasn't as "natural" a musical humorist as, say, Puccini was.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I _like _FALSTAFF, even though I think it's more brilliant than heartwarming and that Verdi perhaps wasn't as "natural" a musical humorist as, say, Puccini was.


Funny I've always thought the reverse was true. Verdi's natural _humanity_ comes out in every page of *Falstaff*, whereas the humour in *Gianni Schicchi* is quite black, wicked and really rather cruel, though admittedly very funny.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I adore Verdi, as most people know, but I also have a slight problem with *Aida*. Brimful of the most glorious music, I admire it, rather than love it. It never really moves me as his other operas do. That is except for Callas and Gobbi in the Nile Scene, who reduced me to a quivering wreck when I listened to them a few days ago. Otherwise it tends to leave me cold.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bellinilover said:


> I love NORMA, but perhaps that's a given considering my screen name. I can definitely hear why it's generally considered the pinnacle of bel canto opera.
> 
> At one time I would have said that Verdi's IL TROVATORE is the one opera of his I've heard that I can't get into, but that opinion has changed in the past year. There was also a time when I _respected_ OTELLO and FALSTAFF more than I _loved_ them, but I can now say that I love OTELLO and that I _like _FALSTAFF, even though I think it's more brilliant than heartwarming and that Verdi perhaps wasn't as "natural" a musical humorist as, say, Puccini was.


Now that you mention it, I can live without _Trovatore_. I cannot recall whose baby got barbecued and frankly I don't care. And when it comes to anvils, give me nibelungs any day.

_Falstaff_ I revere, and the one time I saw it live I enjoyed it thoroughly. That said, I do find _Gianni Schicchi_ funnier - wickedly so, as Greg says - but far less wonderful musically.

Isn't trashing great works of art a blast?


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Well, I love "Norma", and also "Aida" and "Trovatore". 

Great operas that I have a less than stellar relationship with, include "Die Zauberflöte", "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg" and "Elektra".


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Now that you mention it, I can live without _Trovatore_. I cannot recall whose baby got barbecued and frankly I don't care. And when it comes to anvils, give me nibelungs any day.
> 
> _Falstaff_ I revere, and the one time I saw it live I enjoyed it thoroughly. That said, I do find _Gianni Schicchi_ funnier - wickedly so, as Greg says - but far less wonderful musically.
> 
> Isn't trashing great works of art a blast?


*Il Trovatore* I love far more than *Aida* for some reason, and I'm not entirely sure why. Many of my reasons for not loving *Aida* could also be leveled at *Il Trovatore*, but I love its rude vigour, the sheer fecundity of its melodic invention. Having recently listened to both operas (from the Callas set), it was still *Il Trovatore* that made the greatest impression on me.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Trovatore_ is, sure enough, bursting with great tunes. Maybe if we had a Caruso and a Ponselle and an Amato to sing it I'd get that baby situation straightened out once and for all. But those gypsies...I don't know.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> _Trovatore_ is, sure enough, bursting with great tunes. Maybe if we had a Caruso and a Ponselle and an Amato to sing it I'd get that baby situation straightened out once and for all. But those gypsies...I don't know.


Well Callas, Karajan et al do ok for me.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

It was Caruso himself who said that to give "Trovatore" its due, you need to get the four best singers in the world. Verdi wanted that those singers were singing with 'il Diavolo in corpo', passionate, intense, forceful, and we can hear all this coming indeed from the pit... a very Romantic proposition... but, however, at the same time he wrote vocal tunes that required a traditional (in the 1850s) Belcanto technique to be properly delivered.

That's why, in my view, you do really need the four best singers in the world. 

Just as a small example, "Stride la vampa" must be sung like this: 



 or like that: 



 (there are intermediate options, to be sure).

It's very, very difficult to blend together this Romantic longing for expressiveness, and satisfy at the same time the almost Rossinian aspiration to follow the golden rules of Belcanto. In my book, perhaps only Maria Callas's Leonora really achieved this feat.











I have watched quite a few Trovatores in the theater, and (while enjoying always, as I love the opera) never was completely satisfied. To watch a DVD, I would pick the Karajan: Kaibavanska, Domingo, Cappuccilli, Cossotto from Vienna.


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## Chi_townPhilly (Apr 21, 2007)

silentio said:


> *Opera you acknowledge to be great but can never get into*


Oh, I'd say anything composed/constructed around the _castrati_ concept. Hopefully, no further details will be needed...


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Manrico in Trovatore needs a proper high tenor with ringing top notes in my opinion, not a Caruso type baritonal voice. I've think I've posted in another thread some links to recordings by Tamagno, Affre (not his 'Di quella pira' though, yikes!) and Escalaïs. Here is 'Ah si, ben mio', sung by Francesco Signorini with all the squillo you could possibly want. In his own time Signorini certainly wasn't one of the four best singers in the world, but he was very good and had the right sound for this music.






I think there are three reasons why Trovatore has fallen into disfavour. Lack of singers is one. Another is that many of the small proportion of the population who enjoy opera are fairly musically sophisticated, and either look down on or genuinely don't enjoy opera which was always designed to be accessible to the man in the street- although the man in the 19thC Italian street may well have been much more musically sophisticated than the average lay person today.The third reason is of course the unsavoury plot: was there ever a time when people enjoyed the idea of a story about revenge infanticide?


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

All of Wagner still eludes me. I have become used to viewing librettos and knowledge of the plot as helpful but not necessary for familiarization, but with Wagner I cannot tolerate how fiercely its length and endless recita-singing forces me to sit down with all elements in hand if I don't want to get bored within five minutes (rather than in ten). The music is amazing obviously, but for so much of it I'm just telling myself over and over that I will never have any desire to hear these words delivered in this specific way again because it just sounds like talking, and so how unfortunate that I can't just cut it out and have the music by itself. 

Of course I began my tenure on this forum because I was so excited about having learned to like opera where before I had always wished to have even the music of a Mozart or Verdi without the singing (dark, dark days!), so maybe a similar enlightenment waits in the future. In fact I've had so many such enlightenments, all that I was certain would never come, that I figure it's only a matter of time.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Manrico in Trovatore needs a proper high tenor with ringing top notes in my opinion, not a Caruso type baritonal voice. I've think I've posted in another thread some links to recordings by Tamagno, Affre (not his 'Di quella pira' though, yikes!) and Escalaïs. Here is 'Ah si, ben mio', sung by Francesco Signorini with all the squillo you could possibly want. In his own time Signorini certainly wasn't one of the four best singers in the world, but he was very good and had the right sound for this music.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for digging another superb singer of yesteryear out of your archives. I grant you this is a near-ideal rendition, but I will challenge your characterization of the estimable Signor Caruso's voice as too baritonal, not "properly" high, and lacking in sufficiently ringing high notes and squillo - or do I overinterpret your comparison? Signor,will you sing for us?






Grazie, Signor! Molto bella!

Not to put too fine a point on it - what more could one possibly ask in the voice of a "proper" Manrico? And, just for fun, here's "Di quella pira," in which Verdi's impossible "little notes" are almost perfectly executed, and we are even treated to some lovely mezza voce and portamento:






And finally, without further comment:


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Every opera by Verdi except _Falstaff_.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I adore Verdi, as most people know, but I also have a slight problem with *Aida*. Brimful of the most glorious music, I admire it, rather than love it. It never really moves me as his other operas do. That is except for Callas and Gobbi in the Nile Scene, who reduced me to a quivering wreck when I listened to them a few days ago. Otherwise it tends to leave me cold.


Greg, dig out the old Romophone double CD of Elizabeth Rethberg, there is virtually a complete Act3 Aida with Lauri-Volpi and Giuseppe de Luca. I first heard this as a twelve year old lad in my grandmother's kitchen in Italy. It turned me on to Verdi and Aida and De Luca, who I still think is one of the greatest of baritones ever. I adore Rethberg, always have, although Callas edges it...just. Although the " Ciel mio padre" is the greatest of all with De Luca and Lizzie.
I also have a house tape of Amy Shuard, Jon Vickers and Peter Glossop from CG in Manchester that is unbeatable as a performance. To my, and everyone else's great regret, none of Lawrence Tibbett's performances as Amonasro at the MET were ever broadcast, imagine how that would have been.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I don't really think "Trovatore" has indeed fallen into (serious) disfavour. If we look at the numbers, the last season was the #5 Verdi's opera in terms of number of performances worldwide, and the #18 in total.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> I don't really think "Trovatore" has indeed fallen into (serious) disfavour. If we look at the numbers, the last season was the #5 Verdi's opera in terms of number of performances worldwide, and the #18 in total.


I don't think anyone was suggesting that it has. People were talking about great operas they found it difficult to get into, and some mentioned *Il Trovatore*. Not me, by the way. I love it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Must confess that I find it difficulty to love Triatan und Isolde despite having four recordings of it! I'm doing my best!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting that it has. People were talking about great operas they found it difficult to get into, and some mentioned *Il Trovatore*. Not me, by the way. I love it.


With the right cast its an absolute masterpiece.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Must confess that I find it difficulty to love Triatan und Isolde despite having four recordings of it! I'm doing my best!


You (presumably) have the Karajan/Bayreuth and the Furtwangler/Philharmonia-- and _still_, no pulse?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

_Elektra._ Everybody but the baritone is cartoony loony. For an hour of camp I'll take an Ed Wood movie, my comfy recliner, and a bag of potato chips.

Oh - and _Salome_. Best just to listen to that super final scene and imagine that Birgit Nilsson's voice actually belongs to Marschallin Blair.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

GregMitchell said:


> I don't think anyone was suggesting that it has. People were talking about great operas they found it difficult to get into, and some mentioned *Il Trovatore*. Not me, by the way. I love it.


Well, I think someone was:



Figleaf said:


> I think there are three reasons why Trovatore *has fallen into disfavour*....




I also love it. But I fully understand that other people, like our friend Figleaf, have a more difficult time getting into "Trovatore". It's just I don't think that this is a general view among opera fans, because the popularity of "Trovatore" is (still) very high.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Mozart's CFT. Beautiful music but this alone isn't enough to carry me along - maybe because I can't really empathise with the main characters and I find the plot a bit laboured.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Berg's Wozzeck. Hop! Hop!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> _Elektra._ Everybody but the baritone is cartoony loony. For an hour of camp I'll take an Ed Wood movie, my comfy recliner, and a bag of potato chips.
> 
> Oh - and _Salome_. Best just to listen to that super final scene and imagine that Birgit Nilsson's voice actually belongs to Marschallin Blair.


I agree with you about *Elektra*. Always seems like a load of women screaming at each other for ages.

*Salome* I love, but preferably not with Nilsson. Welitsch, Behrens or (on film) Stratas for me.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> _Elektra._ Everybody but the baritone is cartoony loony. For an hour of camp I'll take an Ed Wood movie, my comfy recliner, and a bag of potato chips.
> 
> Oh - and _Salome_. Best just to listen to that super final scene and imagine that Birgit Nilsson's voice actually belongs to Marschallin Blair.


Ed Wood and Bella Lugosi in the _Adventures of Ed Wood_ don't even _come close_ to the _Elektra_ stage.

Full camp, full volume, full Strauss.

True, I'm awesome, but Birgit's undeniably good as well.

_;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I agree with you about *Elektra*. Always seems like a load of women screaming at each other for ages.
> 
> *Salome* I love, but preferably not with Nilsson. Welitsch, Behrens or (on film) Stratas for me.


I love _Elektra_-- for the reason you just mentioned.

I was listening to the Nilsson/Solti a couple of nights ago. I love the drama. I love the densely-textured orchestrations and color.

Though admittedly, its an emotional resonance and not an intellectual one-- the libretto without Strauss' genius would be intolerable for me.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I love Elektra-- for the reason you just mentioned.
> 
> I was listening to the Nilsson/Solti a couple of nights ago. I love the drama. I love the densely-textured orchestrations and color.


Seems like totally the wrong voice for the role to me. She doesn't remotely suggest the spoiled _young_ princess, more a Valkyrie on a night off.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Seems like totally the wrong voice for the role to me. She doesn't remotely suggest the spoiled _young_ princess, more a Valkyrie on a night off.


I was talking about_ Elektra _and not Salome._ ;D_

-- Agreed on the Nilsson Salome though.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Before listening to Astrid Varnay singing Elektra, I also thought that it is a screaming/yodeling contest. But somehow the goddess did manage to dig deep into the text to bring out nuances and make the character more believable (same can be said for Waltraud Meier's Klytemnestra that she has been doing recently). No wonder some people call Varnay the Teutonic Callas.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I was talking about_ Elektra _and not Salome._ ;D_
> 
> -- Agreed on the Nilsson Salome though.


Sorry I misread. *If* I were to get a recording of *Elektra* it would probably be the Nilsson/Solti. But I think it's unlikely I will. I did have it on LP and it sorely tried my patience!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I agree with you about *Elektra*. Always seems like a load of women screaming at each other for ages.
> 
> *Salome* I love, but preferably not with Nilsson. Welitsch, Behrens or (on film) Stratas for me.


Actually Nilsson, fine as her recording is, wouldn't be my ideal Salome either. I was just looking for the silliest imagery, and Birgit/Blair felt right. I choose the astounding Maria Cebotari, who looked gorgeous and sounded like this:


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Actually Nilsson, fine as her recording is, wouldn't be my ideal Salome either. I was just looking for the silliest imagery, and Birgit/Blair felt right. I choose the astounding Maria Cebotari, who looked gorgeous and sounded like this:


Well of course:_ Birgit_ in a sarong is so wrong. I could _butcher_ a cow joke. . . . . . so I won't. 










I _love _that performance of Cebotari's (that you posted ages ago at TC, by the by _;D_ ). . . but more of course for the pure athleticism and _pur sang_ high drama than for the subtlety of interpretive nuance.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I probably need some help getting more into Samuel Barber's Vanessa.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Well of course:_ Birgit_ in a sarong is so wrong. I could _butcher_ a cow joke. . . . . . so I won't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nooance? Huh? Wuddya tink dat liddle tramp is? A freakin innuhlectial er sumpm?


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> *Il Trovatore* I love far more than *Aida* for some reason, and I'm not entirely sure why. Many of my reasons for not loving *Aida* could also be leveled at *Il Trovatore*, but I love its rude vigour, the sheer fecundity of its melodic invention. Having recently listened to both operas (from the Callas set), it was still *Il Trovatore* that made the greatest impression on me.


Trovatore has more interesting vocal lines imo. Aida struck me as rather...simple.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Trovatore has more interesting vocal lines imo. Aida struck me as rather...simple.


I agree. Trovatore's Leonora is almost Bellinian in vocal lines.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

hpowders said:


> Berg's Wozzeck. Hop! Hop!


Well, Wozzeck is certainly an interesting opera with an awesomely dark storyline.


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well, Wozzeck is certainly an interesting opera with an awesomely dark storyline.


Totally agree. Same for Lulu, if Berg had made it more concise


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> Trovatore has more interesting vocal lines imo. Aida struck me as rather...simple.


There is some truth in this. *Il Trovatore* harks back to the operas of the _bel canto_, Leonora's arias in particular requiring a command of florid singing they rarely get. The orchestra still plays an accompanimental role.

By the time of *Aida*, the vocal line is becoming simpler, and more of the musical interest lies in the orchestra. Indeed, while never resorting to anything remotely Egyptian, Verdi creates his own version of exotic Egypt. Orchestrally, it is a _tour de force_.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

In fact, Verdi's musical depiction of Ancient Egypt is not only convincing, up to the 'trombe egizie', but also extremely powerful. 

However, in my view, the greatest strenght of "Aida" is the way it combines the old, and the new. The tradition, the numbers's opera, the very Romantic and Italian vocal lines, with the refined use of the orchestra and the motifs, especially the ones referring to Amneris, that are almost a miracle of concision and an accurate musical portrait.

Such a beautiful opera... I love "Aida" even a little bit more than "Trovatore". From the Prelude and 'Celeste Aida' to the final love duet. Then again, I fully understand that other people feels differently. To each his own.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Thank you for digging another superb singer of yesteryear out of your archives. I grant you this is a near-ideal rendition, but I will challenge your characterization of the estimable Signor Caruso's voice as too baritonal, not "properly" high, and lacking in sufficiently ringing high notes and squillo - or do I overinterpret your comparison? Signor,will you sing for us?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You correctly interpret what I said about Caruso- and I'm tempted to retract the part about high notes. The note at the end of Di quella pira (high C? Bb?) is excellent, and surely not within the compass of an actual baritone. However- he does have that very baritonal sound, and I think it robs this cabaletta (is that what it's called) of the brilliance it ought to have. Another potential cause of this problem is downward transposition by a semitone, which my ear is not good enough to identify, but I have read that Caruso and many other tenors did this. It would perhaps explain the disappointingly dull sound of all but the big high note. Little notes are indeed all present and correct as far as I can tell, whereas Tamagno smudges them slightly  but the latter does have the right bright sound and an appropriately martial manner: Caruso doesn't actually sound like he's that keen to spill the blood of his enemies. My Desert Island performance of Pira would be Leon Escalaïs' forceful yet elegant and sensitive performance: you get to keep the little notes, and the high Cs are the best (and most competently recorded) of the entire acoustic era, and must have provoked paroxysms of envy among practically all other tenors:






I think he completely obliterates Caruso and pretty much everybody else. Strangely enough, Escalaïs' 'Ah si! ben mio' is rather stiffly phrased and not very tender, whereas Caruso's is extraordinarily fine- molto bella, indeed. I guess if you were to build the perfect historical Manrico, you would need to assemble parts from more than one tenor. You would certainly want somebody who has a trill and is prepared to use it: Escalaïs omits the trills even though he possessed a fantastic one, which we can hear in the Sicilenne from Robert le Diable. Caruso had a trill I think, but he leaves it out as well, as does Signorini. I think we can confidently say that Gershon Sirota displays the best trills we are likely to hear in this aria, although he sounds a bit uninvolved. (Listening to him alongside Signorini, I'm struck by a similarity in timbre. Two very exciting voices, certainly.) Mention of the 'near ideal' Signorini version has persuaded me to link once again to the actually ideal performance, which I have mentioned before, to the utter indifference of everyone on TC. I think I will just have to post it repeatedly until at least one person tells me how great it is 






Here we have the two (rather brief) trills, the most elegant phrasing I could ever imagine, perfect legato (it's sometimes wrongly alleged that Affre had no legato- he may have saved it for special occasions, given his usual fondness for marcato type effects and an emphatic attack a la Tamagno), and the most beautiful tenor voice I have ever heard, particularly in the upper range- and recorded well for once, so that we can appreciate the mellowness of the voice as well as its power and penetration. This is probably my favourite record of all time.

I enjoyed Caruso and Schumann Heink's Ai nostri monti. Here is Signorini's version, for purposes of comparison- not that Caruso's performance is in any way lacking. I find it interesting that the contralto Pietracewska, about whom I know nothing, gives an excellent performance: she doesn't quite have the splendour of Schumann Heink, but she's very good for a reasonably obscure singer who nobody raves about. It goes to show what vocal riches are out there, for those who are prepared to look.






Finally, you can listen to more Di quella piras than you can shake a stick at, here:

http://www.francoisnouvion.net/tenorssingingdiquellapira.html

Sirota's excellent version is there, and last time I checked the link still worked (which not all the others did).


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

schigolch said:


> Well, I think someone was:
> 
> 
> 
> I also love it. But I fully understand that other people, like our friend Figleaf, have a more difficult time getting into "Trovatore". It's just I don't think that this is a general view among opera fans, because the popularity of "Trovatore" is (still) very high.


I seem to have given you the wrong impression, that I don't like Trovatore: I'll admit to being squeamish about the plot, but what I meant to say was that while its melodies make it attractive to the musically unsophisticated (i.e. me) I get the impression that it is generally looked down upon, or at least not enjoyed, by critics and highbrow people generally- people like Woodduck who like all the difficult German stuff which 'is better than it sounds'. Perhaps when you are clever enough to hear Tristan und Isolde as more than just noise, the more accessible stuff like Trovatore starts to sound corny and obvious: just as, when I was three years old, I thought Abba were the best thing ever, but even by the time I was a teenager and had come to appreciate opera, Abba sounded pretty embarrassing.

Anyway, as I may have mentioned, my favourite record ever is from Trovatore:






And let's not forget this one either:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> You (presumably) have the Karajan/Bayreuth and the Furtwangler/Philharmonia-- and _still_, no pulse?


I have 
Karajan / Bayreuth and / BPO
Kleiber
Bohm (Bayreith)
I find I'm admiring it as a masterpiece but find it difficult to love because both principles are (as most of Wagner's characters) unloveable). So probably the best for me is the Karajan / BPO for the superb orchestra. But Karajan / Bayreuth is probably the greatest performance ever recorded. White hot! Not to be listened to late at night!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Well, Wozzeck is certainly an interesting opera with an awesomely dark storyline.


yes but how miserable! I can be miserable enough without listening to it!


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## The nose (Jan 14, 2014)

DavidA said:


> yes but how miserable! I can be miserable enough without listening to it!


You can say that about half of the opera ever written.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

schigolch said:


> In fact, Verdi's musical depiction of Ancient Egypt is not only convincing, up to the 'trombe egizie', but also extremely powerful.
> 
> However, in my view, the greatest strenght of "Aida" is the way it combines the old, and the new. The tradition, the numbers's opera, the very Romantic and Italian vocal lines, with the refined use of the orchestra and the motifs, especially the ones referring to Amneris, that are almost a miracle of concision and an accurate musical portrait.
> 
> Such a beautiful opera... I love "Aida" even a little bit more than "Trovatore". From the Prelude and 'Celeste Aida' to the final love duet. Then again, I fully understand that other people feels differently. To each his own.


I wouldn't want to get into an argument. I love Verdi, all Verdi. I think *Aida* is amazing. It just doesn't move me quite the way most of his other operas do, and I'm not really sure why.

Well one doesn't have to be moved all the time I suppose, and the beauties of the score are manifold.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

GregMitchell said:


> I wouldn't want to get into an argument. I love Verdi, all Verdi. I think *Aida* is amazing. *It just doesn't move me quite the way most of his other operas do*, and I'm not really sure why.
> 
> Well one doesn't have to be moved all the time I suppose, and the beauties of the score are manifold.


The singing style is definitely different in later Verdi like Aida, as we discussed in Callas boxset thread.

Trovatore contains a nonstop bold collection of tour de force aria opportunites for gifted singers,,,,,,,,one problem with live Trovatore recordings is that with great singers it is hard to go more than 10-15 minutes without audience ovations because a breathtaking aria had just been sung with great skill, a good problem to deal with! :angel:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> You correctly interpret what I said about Caruso- and I'm tempted to retract the part about high notes. The note at the end of Di quella pira (high C? Bb?) is excellent, and surely not within the compass of an actual baritone. However- he does have that very baritonal sound, and I think it robs this cabaletta (is that what it's called) of the brilliance it ought to have. Another potential cause of this problem is downward transposition by a semitone, which my ear is not good enough to identify, but I have read that Caruso and many other tenors did this. It would perhaps explain the disappointingly dull sound of all but the big high note. Little notes are indeed all present and correct as far as I can tell, whereas Tamagno smudges them slightly  but the latter does have the right bright sound and an appropriately martial manner: Caruso doesn't actually sound like he's that keen to spill the blood of his enemies. My Desert Island performance of Pira would be Leon Escalaïs' forceful yet elegant and sensitive performance: you get to keep the little notes, and the high Cs are the best (and most competently recorded) of the entire acoustic era, and must have provoked paroxysms of envy among practically all other tenors:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you again, Figleaf, for bringing more fine singers to my attention. I do find Affre's "Ah si ben mio" as nicely sung as I've ever heard it, though I'm really not fond of Verdi in French. It's good to hear a tenor with a perfect trill. Are the trills actually in the score? If so I'm surprised Caruso omits them, since he was quite capable of them.

I think we have to admit some difficulty when we talk about vocal timbre on recordings of this vintage. Different voices were differently affected by the crude technology of the time, but all were altered, and one of the chief alterations was a muting of a voice's natural brilliance by the elimination of upper partials. This could wreak havoc with women's voices; sopranos tended to be reduced to sounding like human flutes. In general, the higher the voice, the less faithful the reproduction. Baritones tended to come off rather well, and a rich tenor voice like Caruso's could convey much of that richness but not all of the brilliance which would be heard live. Brighter tenor voices could nonetheless sound bright in recordings, but somewhat by default; the deeper overtones were simply not there to begin with. So, although I understand your comments on the relative lack of brilliance in Caruso's "Di quella pira," I think it's a certainty that this is due not so much to a lack of brilliance in the voice but to a different balance of overtones inherent in the voice which recordings captured in a certain way, causing the lower partials to dominate - despite which, I must say, his highest notes often seem to cut right through the ancient technology, even come close to shattering its composure, and give us some idea of how huge and viscerally thrilling they must have sounded live.

If I seem to do a lot of special pleading on behalf of Enrico, it isn't because he needs it! From the recorded evidence as we actually hear it, and from my sense of how the technology of the time affected sound, I am simply stupefied by the seemingly paradoxical combination of depth, richness, darkness, brilliance, power, weight, flexibility, warmth, clarity, focus, etc., etc. in the man's voice in comparison with any other voice I've heard, on records or off, and I feel I understand completely Serafin's remark that there were three vocal miracles he heard in his lifetime - Caruso, Ruffo, and Ponselle - and then "a lot of other fine singers." I love quite a few singers for their particular vocal and artistic qualities, and I may prefer others' renditions of this aria or that, but Caruso seems, by the sheer prodigality of his voice and temperament, to transcend the criteria by which others are judged. When he opens his mouth and his generous spirit pours out its passionate legato - and that is the clearest image I can find for the unbridled yet disciplined way music flows from him - I just submit and feel overwhelmed and grateful for the gift of something beyond comprehension.

That said, I'm always delighted to discover the special qualities and contributions of the lesser gods. I'm a pagan in this respect: one god is not enough.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I seem to have given you the wrong impression, that I don't like Trovatore: I'll admit to being squeamish about the plot, but what I meant to say was that while its melodies make it attractive to the musically unsophisticated (i.e. me) I get the impression that it is generally looked down upon, or at least not enjoyed, by critics and *highbrow people generally- people like Woodduck who like all the difficult German stuff which 'is better than it sounds'. *Perhaps when you are clever enough to hear Tristan und Isolde as more than just noise, the more accessible stuff like Trovatore starts to sound corny and obvious: just as, when I was three years old, I thought Abba were the best thing ever, but even by the time I was a teenager and had come to appreciate opera, Abba sounded pretty embarrassing.


This absolutely makes my day! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> just as, when I was three years old, I thought Abba were the best thing ever, but even by the time I was a teenager and had come to appreciate opera, Abba sounded pretty embarrassing.


Oh dear. I still enjoy Abba. Maybe I never grew up!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Oh dear. I still enjoy Abba. Maybe I never grew up!


Abba was, is, and will always be God. I loved them as a kid and I love them now.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

You forgot this one!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> Oh dear. I still enjoy Abba. Maybe I never grew up!


Oh dear. I've never liked Abba. Maybe I was never young.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Oh dear. I've never liked Abba. Maybe I was never young.


. . . no, merely eternally charming.

Well, we all have our crosses to bear.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I seem to have given you the wrong impression, that I don't like Trovatore: I'll admit to being squeamish about the plot, but what I meant to say was that while its melodies make it attractive to the musically unsophisticated (i.e. me) I get the impression that it is generally looked down upon, or at least not enjoyed, by critics and highbrow people generally- people like Woodduck who like all the difficult German stuff which 'is better than it sounds'. Perhaps when you are clever enough to hear Tristan und Isolde as more than just noise, the more accessible stuff like Trovatore starts to sound corny and obvious: ]


For me Tristan und Isolde is more accessible than Il Trovatore but I am so unsophisticated that I don´t know what is accessible or not unless for the most obvious cases. What makes Tristan und Isolde to sound like noise? It is not the opera that creates most earworms but it is still beautiful music.


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## Markbridge (Sep 28, 2014)

I'm afraid Die Meistersinger and Don Giovanni are two major operas I cannot get into. No matter how often I listen to them, I just don't get it. 

Now, if someone gave me tickets to Met performances for either of these, I wouldn't turn them down. Hint, hint.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Sloe said:


> For me Tristan und Isolde is more accessible than Il Trovatore but I am so unsophisticated that I don´t know what is accessible or not unless for the most obvious cases. What makes Tristan und Isolde to sound like noise? It is not the opera that creates most earworms but it is still beautiful music.


I don't like it because the orchestra is too loud- an unattractive thing in itself, plus it forces the singers to shout- and there aren't any 'tunes'. Perhaps if you like really loud bombastic orchestral music and can listen past the yelling, it wouldn't sound too bad. For me opera is about beautiful voices and beautiful melodies: I don't like orchestral music at all, so any opera in which the orchestra is the star is not going to appeal to me. I like Verdi's early operas where the orchestral accompaniment is simple and doesn't detract from the singing. I'm not saying Tristan is objectively bad, though I suspect Wagner has had a deleterious effect on singing standards, both in the loud orchestration and in reducing the importance of singers, whose skills and personalities were originally at the centre of what opera is about. If you instinctively respond to the opera, or any opera, that's good, obviously! Did you listen to a lot of orchestral music before you discovered Tristan?


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I don't like it because the orchestra is too loud- an unattractive thing in itself, plus it forces the singers to shout- and there aren't any 'tunes'. Perhaps if you like really loud bombastic orchestral music and can listen past the yelling, it wouldn't sound too bad. For me opera is about beautiful voices and beautiful melodies: I don't like orchestral music at all, so any opera in which the orchestra is the star is not going to appeal to me. I like Verdi's early operas where the orchestral accompaniment is simple and doesn't detract from the singing. I'm not saying Tristan is objectively bad, though I suspect Wagner has had a deleterious effect on singing standards, both in the loud orchestration and in reducing the importance of singers, whose skills and personalities were originally at the centre of what opera is about. If you instinctively respond to the opera, or any opera, that's good, obviously! Did you listen to a lot of orchestral music before you discovered Tristan?


Starting from Mozart/Verdi/Puccini, I had a hard time to overcome the shouting/loud orchestra problems like you are having. For me back then, Tristan and Isolde didn't seem to be real people, but screaming machines that need to compete with bombastic conducting of many "giant" conductors. Not until I discovered the Karajan/Vickers/Dernesch studio recording that I began to appreciate Wagner as a "humanist", though not to the extent of Mozart/Verdi/Monteverdi (but does it matter at all when Wagner works are more about transcending human conditions into the metaphysical realms?). Vickers' laments in act 3 make Tristan's suffers become so real, so believably painful. Dernesch is also a very humane and moving Isolde. That is to say, my tastes and perceptions about Wagner may be severely biased since I used the "Italian approach" to treat him, but at least it worked for me.

Since then, I began my search for that kind of singers/conductors, who can breathe life into Wagner music. That of course eliminates many big names from the past and the present, but I find myself so lucky to find my own path to Wagner with the help of artists like Herbert von Karajan, Astrid Varnay,Waltraud Meier, Jon Vickers, Helga Dernesch, Jose van Dam etc...


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Abba was, is, and will always be God. I loved them as a kid and I love them now.


Talented yes! God no!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

silentio said:


> Starting from Mozart/Verdi/Puccini, I had a hard time to overcome the shouting/loud orchestra problems like you are having. For me back then, Tristan and Isolde didn't seem to be real people, but screaming machines that need to compete with bombastic conducting of many "giant" conductors. Not until I discovered the Karajan/Vickers/Dernesch studio recording that I began to appreciate Wagner as a "humanist", though not to the extent of Mozart/Verdi/Monteverdi (but does it matter at all when Wagner works are more about transcending human conditions into the metaphysical realms?). Vickers' laments in act 3 make Tristan's suffers become so real, so believably painful. Dernesch is also a very humane and moving Isolde. That is to say, my tastes and perceptions about Wagner may be severely biased since I used the "Italian approach" to treat him, but at least it worked for me.
> 
> Since then, I began my search for that kind of singers/conductors, who can breathe life into Wagner music. That of course eliminates many big names from the past and the present, but I find myself so lucky to find my own path to Wagner with the help of artists like Herbert von Karajan, Astrid Varnay,Waltraud Meier, Jon Vickers, Helga Dernesch, Jose van Dam etc...


It's interesting you should say what you do about Karajan's approach. He's often credited with bringing the orchestra too much into the foreground, but it was interesting to hear what Jessye Norman had to say when she sang the _Liebstod_ in concert with him, how he often made the orchestra play softly so that her voice would never be covered or drowned out. This was in the recent Karajan documentary on BBC4.

I also remember that around the time of the concert she was asked if she would now consider singing the role complete. "With Maestro Karajan, yes; with anyone else,no," was her reply.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Figleaf said:


> I seem to have given you the wrong impression, that I don't like Trovatore: I'll admit to being squeamish about the plot, but what I meant to say was that while its melodies make it attractive to the musically unsophisticated (i.e. me) I get the impression that it is generally looked down upon, or at least not enjoyed, by critics and highbrow people generally- people like Woodduck who like all the difficult German stuff which 'is better than it sounds'. Perhaps when you are clever enough to hear Tristan und Isolde as more than just noise, the more accessible stuff like Trovatore starts to sound corny and obvious: just as, when I was three years old, I thought Abba were the best thing ever, but even by the time I was a teenager and had come to appreciate opera, Abba sounded pretty embarrassing.


Well, I love both "Tristan" and "Trovatore". Then again, I'm not a "highbrow" kind of person. I even like many Abba's songs. 

Believing in the sublime power of the melody to speak directly to the heart of the listener, and articulate this melody in singing, are indeed the basics of Italian opera, and in "Trovatore" Verdi used melody in such a beautiful way, that's really breathtaking.

But this is not less (or more) 'sophisticated' than "Tristan". It's just built using a different set of codes.

[HR][/HR]


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I don't like it because the orchestra is too loud- an unattractive thing in itself, plus it forces the singers to shout- and there aren't any 'tunes'. Perhaps if you like really loud bombastic orchestral music and can listen past the yelling, it wouldn't sound too bad. For me opera is about beautiful voices and beautiful melodies: I don't like orchestral music at all, so any opera in which the orchestra is the star is not going to appeal to me. I like Verdi's early operas where the orchestral accompaniment is simple and doesn't detract from the singing. I'm not saying Tristan is objectively bad, though I suspect Wagner has had a deleterious effect on singing standards, both in the loud orchestration and in reducing the importance of singers, whose skills and personalities were originally at the centre of what opera is about. If you instinctively respond to the opera, or any opera, that's good, obviously! Did you listen to a lot of orchestral music before you discovered Tristan?


Fact is I like loud bombastic orchestral music and loud singing I require operas to have at least some volume to enjoy them. Of course it should be beautiful at the same time. Tristan is really not my favourite but it is beautiful. No I don´t want to say I listened a lot to orchestral music before. I have rather recently began listening to orchestral music but I listened a lot to orchestral music during my childhood but after that I have not been listening much to orchestral music. My music habits are a bit peculiar I listen to one sort of music for some years and then I start with some other music it has been like that as long as I can remember. I prefer the human voice together with the orchestra the voice brings a presence an instrument can´t do. 
I like early Verdi operas too especially Attila. I like must of Verdis operas. I think your post made me like Tristan und Isolde more. With il Trovatore I must say there is something that hinders me from getting in to it.

I don´t think I can say there is an opera I acknowledged to be great and can *never *get into I can change my mind and if I acknowledge an opera to be great I would have to like it at least a bit.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> It's interesting you should say what you do about Karajan's approach. He's often credited with bringing the orchestra too much into the foreground, but it was interesting to hear what Jessye Norman had to say when she sang the _Liebstod_ in concert with him, how he often made the orchestra play softly so that her voice would never be covered or drowned out. This was in the recent Karajan documentary on BBC4.
> 
> I also remember that around the time of the concert she was asked if she would now consider singing the role complete. "With Maestro Karajan, yes; with anyone else,no," was her reply.


His DG _Ring _completely tones down roaring, texturally-thick orchestral passages so that the singers can not only be heard, but so that their elocution can be understood as well. This tremendous balancing act he does so adroitly that I scarcely notice it at times. He's an absolutely incredible technician and magician.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2014)

Well, I don't like much of opera. I have some that I enjoy, but wouldn't say that I am a huge fan. I have enjoyed most of what I have heard of Mozart's operas. I like Beethoven's Fidelio, Tchaikovsky's Onegin, and Wagner's Ring, Meistersinger, Tannhauser and Lohengrin.

Verdi has not registered with me, or most of the other Italians.

I would say, that of those who composed for opera that I do generally enjoy, the major opera that stands out that I acknowledge as being recognized as great, but I don't get/can't stand would have to be Tristan und Isolde. I've heard a few different recordings. I own the Barenboim recording. And I don't get it. It is boring to me, and I can't point to any point in it that my opinion improves. Nothing with this opera clicks with me. I find the storyline agonizing, and the music does not impress itself on my mind.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

The operas I don't like I don't think are great.
But in general I don't care for French, Russian or English opera. Handel excepted.

Except for Faust and Tales of Hoffman ,which is not French written.

I think they're all over rated. Especially Troyens, which I think people want to like because it seems cool, so they listen to it 5,000 times till they can say,"I love this"


mho


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Abba was, is, and will always be God. I loved them as a kid and I love them now.


Then the corresponding hell must be worse than anything Christians have conceived!

By the way, love the animal outfits in the Waterloo video. I think they sell those at Carter's.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> His DG _Ring _completely tones down roaring, texturally-thick orchestral passages so that the singers can not only be heard, but so that their elocution can be understood as well. This tremendous balancing act he does so adroitly that I scarcely notice it at times. He's an absolutely incredible technician and magician.


I hear the adroitness constantly - it's impossible for me not to notice it - and it bugs me. Narcissism is charming only when it's tongue-in-cheek: self-consciousness, preciosity and calculation, which came into Karajan's conducting at some date I haven't paid enough attention to determine, is alien to Wagner - and to Beethoven, and to any music I care about. I want a sense of naturalness, as if the music is playing itself, not being manipulated. When I hear the "mature" Karajan conduct Wagner and Verdi, I hear Karajan's Wagner and Verdi. I want to hear Wagner and Verdi. In operas he recorded early and late, I prefer the early one every time (not that I've heard them all). Thank God his _Falstaff_ was early enough to benefit from his superb ear yet escape Karajan-Karamelization.

Richard, not Herbie, was the magician. The conductor is the sorcerer's apprentice, who takes orders, executes them, and gives his master the credit. If he does that well, he won't lack for recognition and needn't strike sophisticated poses to get it.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Itullian said:


> The operas I don't like I don't think are great.
> 
> Except for Faust and Tales of Hoffman ,which is not French written.
> 
> ...


This is just playground stuff!

*Faust*, which the Germans used to call *Margarethe* because they felt it misrepresented Goethe couldn't be more French. Ditto *Les Contes d'Hoffmann*. On what do you base the hypothesis that they are not French?

As for your comment on *Les Troyens*, it exposes not only your ignorance but is actually tremendously insulting, not only to Berlioz, but to the thousands, yes literally thousands, of people, great musicians among them, who revere this great masterpiece.

Ok, we get it, you have it on a repeat loop, you don't like *Les Troyens*. You find it boring. That is your misfortune. Now enough already!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> This is just playground stuff!
> 
> *Faust*, which the Germans used to call *Margarethe* because they felt it misrepresented Goethe couldn't be more French. Ditto *Les Contes d'Hoffmann*. On what do you base the hypothesis that they are not French?
> 
> ...






























Some will demand that one reach_ their _conclusions from_ one's own _premises.

Since when is forcing one's personality onto others a justification for good taste?

For "we Few, we happy Few" (as the Bard would put it)---- its _Troyens_ all the _way_!


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## StevenOBrien (Jun 27, 2011)

silentio said:


> 1/ Mozart's *Don Giovanni*. Mozart is definitely my most favorite composer (and opera composer) ever. I almost worship Cosi fan tutte- for me the most elegant, humane and wittiest opera ever composed. I adore Figaro, the Flute and even back to his earlier works like Idomeneo and Die Entführung. But somehow I can't fully appreciate Don. The music and the way he portrays the characters are sublime, but somehow when putting everything together, I find it too long and too boring


Exact opposite for me. I could listen to DG on repeat all day, but Figaro and Cosi just get old for me after about an hour.

I should say though that I'm not really a fan of opera in general.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DrMike said:


> Then the corresponding hell must be worse than anything Christians have conceived!
> 
> By the way, love the animal outfits in the Waterloo video. I think they sell those at Carter's.












I wouldn't exactly call Pat Boone on Quaaludes an upgrade.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I wouldn't exactly call Pat Boone on Quaaludes an upgrade.


I have no clue what that even means.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I hear the adroitness constantly - it's impossible for me not to notice it - and it bugs me. Narcissism is charming only when it's tongue-in-cheek: self-consciousness, preciosity and calculation, which came into Karajan's conducting at some date I haven't paid enough attention to determine, is alien to Wagner - and to Beethoven, and to any music I care about. I want a sense of naturalness, as if the music is playing itself, not being manipulated. When I hear the "mature" Karajan conduct Wagner and Verdi, I hear Karajan's Wagner and Verdi. I want to hear Wagner and Verdi. In operas he recorded early and late, I prefer the early one every time (not that I've heard them all). Thank God his _Falstaff_ was early enough to benefit from his superb ear yet escape Karajan-Karamelization.
> 
> Richard, not Herbie, was the magician. The conductor is the sorcerer's apprentice, who takes orders, executes them, and gives his master the credit. If he does that well, he won't lack for recognition and needn't strike sophisticated poses to get it.


Respectfully, I disagree. . . on the adroitness if not the narcissism. _;D_

Among the most gorgeously slick and Valhallan readings I've heard of Wagner's _Ring_ music have been by Stokowski and Karajan-- who didn't exactly think inside of the traditional Bayreuthian box.

Not unlike yourself, I do however find Karajan's Bayreuth _Walkure_ and _Tristan_ immensely more to my red-blooded and passionate dramatic liking. Thumbs-up all the way.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DrMike said:


> I have no clue what that even means.


If Abba's one's botched idea of 'heaven,' then Pat Boone's my botched idea of 'hell.'

Pat Boone, "A Wonderful Time Up There":

_Well, now, everybody s gonna have religion and glory
Everybody s gonna be a-singin that story
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there
Oh, glory hallelujah
Brother, there s a reckonin a-comin in the mornin 
Better get ready cause I m givin you the warnin 
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there

Now listen, everybody cause I m talkin to you
The Lord is the only one to carry you through
Ya better get ready cause I m tellin ya why
The Lord is a-comin from his throne on high
Goin down the valley, goin one by one
We re gonna be rewarded for the things we ve done
How ya gonna feel about the things you ll say on that judgment day?

Well-a, well-a, well-a
Well, now, everybody s gonna have religion and glory
Everybody s gonna be a-singin that story
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there
Oh, glory hallelujah
Brother, there s a reckonin a-comin in the mornin 
Better get ready cause I m givin you the warnin 
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there

Now ya get your Holy Bible in the back of the book
The book of Revelations is the place ya look
If you understand it and you can if you try
The Lord is a-comin from his throne on high
a-readin in the Bible bout the things he said
He said he s comin back again to raise the dead
Are ya gonna be among the chosen few?
Or will you make it through?

Well-a, well-a, well-a
Everybody s gonna have religion and glory
Everybody s gonna be a-singin that story
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there
Oh, glory hallelujah
Brother, there s a reckonin comin in the mornin 
Better get ready cause I m givin you the warnin 
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there

Well-a, well-a, well-a
Everybody s gonna have religion and glory
Everybody s gonna be a-singin that story
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there
Oh, glory hallelujah
Brother, there s a reckonin a-comin in the mornin 
Better get ready cause I m givin you the warnin 
Everybody s gonna have a wonderful time up there _

*Give me "Voulez Vouz" and "Dancing Queen" any day.*


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> If Abba's one's botched idea of 'heaven,' then Pat Boone's my botched idea of 'hell.'
> 
> Pat Boone, "A Wonderful Time Up There":
> 
> ...


Well, given that I never proposed the dichotomy of either Abba or Pat Boone, you'll have to excuse my confusion. Personally, my conceptions of heaven and hell have absolutely nothing to do with velour-clad 70's Swedish disco stars or Pat Boone.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

DrMike said:


> Well, given that I never proposed the dichotomy of either Abba or Pat Boone, you'll have to excuse my confusion. Personally, my conceptions of heaven and hell have absolutely nothing to do with velour-clad 70's Swedish disco stars or Pat Boone.


How about a polyester-clad Jimmy Swaggart singing whisky-drenched spiritualist tunes?


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2014)

Everyone here seems capable of getting into great contemporary operas! Good to know!


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Everyone here seems capable of getting into great contemporary operas! Good to know!


...Or probably the reason why none of the contemporary operas have been mentioned so far is that no one here "acknowledge them to be great"? Just kidding :lol:

For me, I sort of see some values in Benjamin's *Written on Skin*, but I can't still get into the work.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

As a more objective measure, perhaps this Wikipedia list could be used for the discussion?

Conversely, what operas do you think should be on this list that aren't?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Thank you again, Figleaf, for bringing more fine singers to my attention. I do find Affre's "Ah si ben mio" as nicely sung as I've ever heard it, though I'm really not fond of Verdi in French. It's good to hear a tenor with a perfect trill. Are the trills actually in the score? If so I'm surprised Caruso omits them, since he was quite capable of them.
> 
> I think we have to admit some difficulty when we talk about vocal timbre on recordings of this vintage. Different voices were differently affected by the crude technology of the time, but all were altered, and one of the chief alterations was a muting of a voice's natural brilliance by the elimination of upper partials. This could wreak havoc with women's voices; sopranos tended to be reduced to sounding like human flutes. In general, the higher the voice, the less faithful the reproduction. Baritones tended to come off rather well, and a rich tenor voice like Caruso's could convey much of that richness but not all of the brilliance which would be heard live. Brighter tenor voices could nonetheless sound bright in recordings, but somewhat by default; the deeper overtones were simply not there to begin with. So, although I understand your comments on the relative lack of brilliance in Caruso's "Di quella pira," I think it's a certainty that this is due not so much to a lack of brilliance in the voice but to a different balance of overtones inherent in the voice which recordings captured in a certain way, causing the lower partials to dominate - despite which, I must say, his highest notes often seem to cut right through the ancient technology, even come close to shattering its composure, and give us some idea of how huge and viscerally thrilling they must have sounded live.
> 
> ...


I suppose special pleading is something we all do from time to time- but rarely as creatively as you just did!:devil: Funny how the distorting effect just affects Caruso, whose phonogenic voice you were just recently extolling. I would have thought that the transposition was largely to blame for the loss of brilliance: I'm not in the camp which considers downward transposition for the convenience of a singer to be some sort of crime against music, but it's surely unarguable that if such a transposition is made and the piece is sung in the 'wrong' key, the effect can be significantly different from that which would have been achieved by singing it in the original key. In any case, Caruso's transposition (or not)of Pira is a verifiable fact, given that there is no major controversy over the speeds of his records or how we expect his voice to sound- although such verification will have to be left to a better ear than mine. Establishing whether or not he sings it in the original key would at least give some objectivity to the discussion of whether or not his performance is unsatisfactory; otherwise we are back to the rather more subjective question of whether such a heavy, baritonal voice sounds right for a high heroic tenor role.

Were the trills in 'Ah si ben mio' in the score, you ask- I haven't a clue! I would have to find a score (ideally of both Trovatore any Le Trouvere, in case there's a difference), learn to read it, and then get back to you in about twenty years from now.  It is the only Affre record with a trill that I have ever heard, and so, since he wasn't in the habit of showing off his trill on records, I had assumed that those two trills in 'O toi, mon seul espoir' must at least have been traditional, if they were not actually written. Who knows why Caruso omitted them? Who knows why Affre in 'Supplice infame'(the French 'Di quella pira' on Francois Nouvion's site), transposed down, unneccessarily one would think, and sang the high notes in a falsetto somewhat less attractive than his usual lovely voix mixte? Even though the recording dates from well before he lost his top, and, high notes aside, he sounds in pretty good voice? Old records of great singers ('minor gods'- bah!) are full of surprises- usually good ones, occasionally not. In Affre's case, one slightly iffy record out of several hundred excellent ones is not bad going. So, no special pleading from me: I am prepared to be severe when necessary! One more point, also rather severe: you mention Caruso being 'unbridled yet disciplined'. Unbridled I will grant you, and disciplined sometimes, yet the latter quality is considerably more apparent in Caruso's singing when you compare him with his successors than with his predecessors. You're entitled to your Caruso fandom of course, but it's interesting to compare him, the first of the moderns, with the old guys!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I suppose special pleading is something we all do from time to time- but rarely as creatively as you just did!:devil: Funny how the distorting effect just affects Caruso, whose phonogenic voice you were just recently extolling. I would have thought that the transposition was largely to blame for the loss of brilliance: I'm not in the camp which considers downward transposition for the convenience of a singer to be some sort of crime against music, but it's surely unarguable that if such a transposition is made and the piece is sung in the 'wrong' key, the effect can be significantly different from that which would have been achieved by singing it in the original key. In any case, Caruso's transposition (or not)of Pira is a verifiable fact, given that there is no major controversy over the speeds of his records or how we expect his voice to sound- although such verification will have to be left to a better ear than mine. Establishing whether or not he sings it in the original key would at least give some objectivity to the discussion of whether or not his performance is unsatisfactory; otherwise we are back to the rather more subjective question of whether such a heavy, baritonal voice sounds right for a high heroic tenor role.
> 
> Were the trills in 'Ah si ben mio' in the score, you ask- I haven't a clue! I would have to find a score (ideally of both Trovatore and Le Trouvere, in case there's a difference), learn to read it, and then get back to you in about twenty years from now.  It is the only Affre record with a trill that I have ever heard, and so, since he wasn't in the habit of showing off his trill on records, I had assumed that those two trills in 'O toi, mon seul espoir' must at least have been traditional, if they were not actually written. Who knows why Caruso omitted them? Who knows why Affre in 'Supplice infame'(the French 'Di quella pira' on Francois Nouvion's site), transposed down, unneccessarily one would think, and sang the high notes in a falsetto somewhat less attractive than his usual lovely voix mixte? Even though the recording dates from well before he lost his top, and, high notes aside, he sounds in pretty good voice? Old records of great singers ('minor gods'- bah!) are full of surprises- usually good ones, occasionally not. In Affre's case, one slightly iffy record out of several hundred excellent ones is not bad going. So, no special pleading from me: I am prepared to be severe when necessary! One more point, also rather severe: you mention Caruso being 'unbridled yet disciplined'. Unbridled I will grant you, and disciplined sometimes, yet the latter quality is considerably more apparent in Caruso's singing when you compare him with his successors than with his predecessors. You're entitled to your Caruso fandom of course, but it's interesting to compare him, the first of the moderns, with the old guys!


Sure. Singing style began to change at the fin du siecle, simply because music changed. Opera's pursuit of greater realism nixed the elaborately florid vocal writing of the past, much as Monteverdi had departed from the melismatic polyphony of the Renaissance in pursuit of expressive declamation, and as Gluck had sought to replace vocal show-offery with dramatic integrity and dignity. Caruso could do florid music - there was nothing lacking in his technique - but the music of his day didn't require it and he was busy premiering works by his contemporaries and making huge popular hits out of Neapolitan songs. My "fandom" is not based on his style as such ; in fact he had a style like no one else's, and I love it coming from him but would not love it from a singer of lesser vocal endowment. There seemed no limit to how much fervor and energy his instrument could bear; there was not one ounce of caution in his makeup, and it drove audiences wild then and still does. Some might call it crude, but not I; listen to the endless legato, the abilty to bind notes together in an unbroken sweeping impulse that makes of individual notes things passed through rather than landed upon - and that impulse a thing of pure feeling, yet superbly controlled at all times. This voice and style can push the boundaries, test the rules as no other, and speak of a man who needed to sing because he just couldn't hold the music in. Caruso is unlike anyone else, not in one way or another but in virtually every way. He is the ultimate reproof to, and obliteration of, the anodyne cookie-cutter tenors of today. Alagna, Vargas, Giordano, Grigolo... Nice singers. Yes, very nice.

There are other tenors in my pantheon. The poet Schipa I may love more than anyone - a modest vocal endowment, utterly distinctive in timbre, used with exquisite taste, deep feeling, and the most gorgeously crystalline diction that ever came from a human mouth. And Bjorling, who sang as if singing were as natural as speaking, with impeccable ease and musicality, and whose flawlessly pure tone could move without effort from the plaintive to the heroic. Neither of them resembled Caruso or tried to - and neither of them, either, has an equal today.

I do love the heady, florid, quicksilver technique and style of the pre-verismo singers who left us recordings. Plancon may be my favorite bass, and Battistini is my favorite baritone - and they'll probably remain so until you find me better ones! I'm always aware, though, that with respect to the actual sound of those voices, a bit, or more than a bit, of imagination is called for. Recording was not too bad by the 1920's; we can hear Caruso at the end of his short life tolerably near the way he sounded, Schipa even more accurately, and Bjorling with no reservations at all. The same can't be said for most of those bel canto relics, and certainly not the females among them. This is really a great loss; sound will always be a barrier to many who would otherwise better appreciate what those singers were capable of. Still, it seems to satisfy you, while less fortunate souls like me have to go in search of opera that's better than it sounds!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Sure. Singing style began to change at the fin du siecle, simply because music changed. Opera's pursuit of greater realism nixed the elaborately florid vocal writing of the past, much as Monteverdi had departed from the melismatic polyphony of the Renaissance in pursuit of expressive declamation, and as Gluck had sought to replace vocal show-offery with dramatic integrity and dignity. Caruso could do florid music - there was nothing lacking in his technique - but the music of his day didn't require it and he was busy premiering works by his contemporaries and making huge popular hits out of Neapolitan songs. My "fandom" is not based on his style as such ; in fact he had a style like no one else's, and I love it coming from him but would not love it from a singer of lesser vocal endowment. There seemed no limit to what his instrument could take in fervor and power; there was not one ounce of caution in his makeup, and it drove audiences wild then and still does. Some might call it crude, but not I; listen to the endless legato, the abilty to bind notes together in an unbroken sweeping impulse that makes of individual notes things passed through rather than landed upon - and that impulse a thing of pure feeling, yet superbly controlled at all times. This voice and style can push the boundaries, test the rules as no other, and speak of a man who needed to sing because he just couldn't hold the music in. Caruso is unlike anyone else, not in one way or another but in virtually every way. He is the ultimate reproof to, and obliteration of, the anodyne cookie-cutter tenors of today. Alagna, Vargas, Giordano, Grigolo... Nice singers. Yes, very nice.
> 
> There are other tenors in my pantheon. The poet Schipa I may love more than anyone - a modest vocal endowment, utterly distinctive in timbre, used with exquisite taste, deep feeling, and the most gorgeously crystalline diction that ever came from a human mouth. And Bjorling, who sang as if singing were as natural as speaking, with impeccable ease and musicality, and whose flawlessly pure tone could move without effort from the plaintive to the heroic. Neither of them resembled Caruso or tried to - and neither of them, either, has an equal today.
> 
> I do love the heady, florid, quicksilver technique and style of the pre-verismo singers who left us recordings. Plancon may be my favorite bass, and Battistini is my favorite baritone - and they'll probably remain so until you find me better ones! I'm always aware, though, that with respect to the actual sound of those voices, a bit, or more than a bit, of imagination is called for. Recording was not too bad by the 1920's; we can hear Caruso at the end of his short life tolerably near the way he sounded, Schipa even more accurately, and Bjorling with no reservations at all. The same can't be said for most of those bel canto relics, and certainly not the females among them. This is really a great loss; sound will always be a barrier to many who would otherwise better appreciate what those singers were capable of. Still, it seems to satisfy you, while less fortunate souls like me have to go in search of opera that's better than it sounds!


Who does _that_ sound like?









_Gorgeous_ post (yours not mine).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Who does _that_ sound like?
> 
> View attachment 58291
> 
> ...


Absolutely another singer who gave 200%! Unfortunately her voice did crack under the strain, which Caruso's showed no sign of doing, although it gained weight as he approached forty. I think he was contemplating Otello and possibly Lohengrin (which would have been his first Wagner), and I have no doubt he would have held up under the strain of those roles and - who can say - maybe Siegmund and Tristan too. I can imagine Ponselle as a superb Brunnhilde and Isolde, but she didn't see it that way.

Oh well, I can't help being desperate for more great voices in Wagner. Even if they are all dead.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Absolutely another singer who gave 200%! Unfortunately her voice did crack under the strain, which Caruso's showed no sign of doing, although it gained weight as he approached forty. I think he was contemplating Otello and possibly Lohengrin (which would have been his first Wagner), and I have no doubt he would have held up under the strain of those roles and - who can say - maybe Siegmund and Tristan too. I can imagine Ponselle as a superb Brunnhilde and Isolde, but she didn't see it that way.
> 
> Oh well, I can't help being desperate for more great voices in Wagner. Even if they are all dead.


She did the superhuman. She could sing _anything_ brilliantly-- God just needed to give her a bit of polish on the high end for her later years.

I've often wondered how_ frustrating _it must have been for a piercing musical intelligence of Divina's caliber to have the ability to negotiate her way around notes and phrases any way she wanted to-- but not having that 'polish' for some of the high-end parts.

It almost makes me want to cry.

I hear the supreme control and artistry to everything she does in her later years-- then she hits a certain register sometimes and it goes steely and wobbly. Her head is going one way and her timbre is going another.

I really don't care though. Like you mentioned of Caruso-- he just goes for it, and so does she; come what may. She's not just an inspiration for other singers, but for life itself. Anything of intellectual or artistic substance should be done as if one's life depended on it.

-- The Ionian Greek way.

-- The Aristotelian way.

-- The full-tilt way.

-- _La Callas_ Way.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck: If there's a better bass than Plançon, I've certainly never heard him! Although he did sing Verdi in French: 'Je dormirai dans mon manteau royal' from Don Carlos. My favourite is 'In diesen heiligen Hallen' in Italian, although nobody else seems to like either his Italian or his Mozart- their loss! We are so lucky to have his records, which are as close to perfection as I could ever imagine. 

The only baritones I prefer to Battistini are either older singers who made only a handful of records (Kaschmann, Maurel) or who were vocally a little or a lot past their best when they recorded (Melchissédec, Santley, Maurel again) or were French (Renaud, Lassalle etc.) so I imagine none of them are likely to replace Battistini in your affections. As far as phonogenic voices go, his may be the best. If only he hadn't that annoying habit of pushing a note sharp, he would be nearly perfect too. Occasionally a slightly younger singer will reach Golden Age standards- Emilio de Gogorza springs to mind, though I've hardly scratched the surface of his huge recorded output. If he was no Battistini, he was at least neither a relic nor a frenchifier of Verdi (as far as I'm aware.)

I would rather listen to great singers in awful sound than the reverse scenario which 99.9% of opera fans seem to consider the only viable option, if they even stop to consider the matter at all. I like Schipa very much, and Björling was the best tenor of his time- but for me,these legends of the relatively recent past were only a stop on the journey back in time to the greats of the late 19th century!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Absolutely another singer who gave 200%! Unfortunately her voice did crack under the strain, which Caruso's showed no sign of doing, although it gained weight as he approached forty. I think he was contemplating Otello and possibly Lohengrin (which would have been his first Wagner), and I have no doubt he would have held up under the strain of those roles and - who can say - maybe Siegmund and Tristan too. I can imagine Ponselle as a superb Brunnhilde and Isolde, but she didn't see it that way.
> 
> Oh well, I can't help being desperate for more great voices in Wagner. Even if they are all dead.


What did Caruso think of Wagner? I can't remember reading anything about his feelings on the matter- though many singers were terrified of the demands of those roles and considered them vocally ruinous. I can imagine Caruso being approached and even pressurised to sing those roles, and the Met was pretty big on Wagner in those days. Lohengrin was always the Wagnerian role of choice for non-Wagnerian tenors and from what I've heard of it so far it wasn't particularly high, so he should have been fine with it. He would have been an elderly first time Wagnerian though: maybe any hints of singing Lohengrin in the near future were designed to keep the rabid Wagnerites at bay, rather than being a genuine expression of interest!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> Woodduck: If there's a better bass than Plançon, I've certainly never heard him! Although he did sing Verdi in French: 'Je dormirai dans mon manteau royal' from Don Carlos. My favourite is 'In diesen heiligen Hallen' in Italian, although nobody else seems to like either his Italian or his Mozart- their loss! We are so lucky to have his records, which are as close to perfection as I could ever imagine.
> 
> The only baritones I prefer to Battistini are either older singers who made only a handful of records (Kaschmann, Maurel) or who were vocally a little or a lot past their best when they recorded (Melchissédec, Santley, Maurel again) or were French (Renaud, Lassalle etc.) so I imagine none of them are likely to replace Battistini in your affections. As far as phonogenic voices go, his may be the best. If only he hadn't that annoying habit of pushing a note sharp, he would be nearly perfect too. Occasionally a slightly younger singer will reach Golden Age standards- Emilio de Gogorza springs to mind, though I've hardly scratched the surface of his huge recorded output. If he was no Battistini, he was at least neither a relic nor a frenchifier of Verdi (as far as I'm aware.)
> 
> I would rather listen to great singers in awful sound than the reverse scenario which 99.9% of opera fans seem to consider the only viable option, if they even stop to consider the matter at all. I like Schipa very much, and Björling was the best tenor of his time- but for me,these legends of the relatively recent past were only a stop on the journey back in time to the greats of the late 19th century!


Ah, you youngsters with your Maurels and Melchissedecs! You should have heard Farinelli!


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Ah, you youngsters with your Maurels and Melchissedecs! You should have heard Farinelli!


:lol:

Actually I did have a bit of a castrato obsession going on- before my son was born and I could no longer bear to think about what they must have gone through. In my student days I used to enjoy scaring people with Alessandro Moreschi. For those who haven't yet had the pleasure, he he is in a Neapolitan song. Caruso and de Lucia, eat your hearts out!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> What did Caruso think of Wagner? I can't remember reading anything about his feelings on the matter- though many singers were terrified of the demands of those roles and considered them vocally ruinous. I can imagine Caruso being approached and even pressurised to sing those roles, and the Met was pretty big on Wagner in those days. Lohengrin was always the Wagnerian role of choice for non-Wagnerian tenors and from what I've heard of it so far it wasn't particularly high, so he should have been fine with it. He would have been an elderly first time Wagnerian though: maybe any hints of singing Lohengrin in the near future were designed to keep the rabid Wagnerites at bay, rather than being a genuine expression of interest!


I don't really know what he thought of Wagner. He had done a couple of Lohengrins in Italian early in his career but never sang in German as far as I know. But he apparently knew some of Tristan's music and sang a bit of it offstage for the critic Huneker, who was very moved by it. I'm sure he brought an Italianate legato to it that would have made it unusually beautiful, and I think his dark timbre was perfect for that role. But there's no evidence that he had plans for it. If only he hadn't been a heavy smoker!


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## DonAlfonso (Oct 4, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> I would rather listen to great singers in awful sound than the reverse scenario which 99.9% of opera fans seem to consider the only viable option, if they even stop to consider the matter at all. I like Schipa very much, and Björling was the best tenor of his time- but for me,these legends of the relatively recent past were only a stop on the journey back in time to the greats of the late 19th century!


Are you seriously saying all current singers are awful?
I'm probably older than most posters here (old enough to have heard Calls live - though sadly only in recital) and I have my own nostalgic 'golden age' but at least it's within my lifetime. In spite of that nostalgia I believe that today we have more superbly trained singers than ever before and more widely spread. You don't need to live in New York or London to hear superb singers.

To get back to the thread topic The Magic Flute would be my choice for an opera I acknowledge as great but I've not gotten in to. This despite loving all things Mozart (Don Giovanni rocks).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Figleaf said:


> :lol:
> 
> Actually I did have a bit of a castrato obsession going on- before my son was born and I could no longer bear to think about what they must have gone through. In my student days I used to enjoy scaring people with Alessandro Moreschi. For those who haven't yet had the pleasure, he he is in a Neapolitan song. Caruso and de Lucia, eat your hearts out!


Absolutely terrifying! The wicked witch of the west! (Or her furry familiar.) Actually, I've heard Moreschi before, in the Bach-Gounod Ave Maria. I think we must graciously forego any conclusions about anything.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

DonAlfonso said:


> Are you seriously saying all current singers are awful?
> I'm probably older than most posters here (old enough to have heard Calls live - though sadly only in recital) and I have my own nostalgic 'golden age' but at least it's within my lifetime. In spite of that nostalgia I believe that today we have more superbly trained singers than ever before and more widely spread. You don't need to live in New York or London to hear superb singers.
> 
> To get back to the thread topic The Magic Flute would be my choice for an opera I acknowledge as great but I've not gotten in to. This despite loving all things Mozart (Don Giovanni rocks).


Well I haven't heard ALL of them, nor even most, so I probably wouldn't want to go so far as to say 'All modern singers...' My annoyance is with listeners who uncritically accept whichever current 'star' is being heavily marketed, and who are too ready to accept as excellent whoever critics, ad men and dumbed down radio stations say is excellent. Those listeners are entitled to have their own favourites, but I wish that they would range a little more widely: in the era of YouTube it's easy enough to do.

Callas in recital- that must have been interesting, and many here will be very envious! Of course anyone who had had that experience would be nostalgic, but I'm not: one can only be nostalgic for the things one personally remembers, and Callas sadly died the year I was born. So most of the stuff I listen to is way beyond what any living person is in a position to be nostalgic for. It's as fresh now as it was when it was recorded: 'ars longa, vita brevis'.

Here's some Zauberflöte for you. I wish there was more where this came from but there isn't, it's unique- still, if you haven't heard it it might give you a different perspective on how Mozart can sound.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2014)

Sometimes I think a few people here love Maria Callas more than any single composer.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

arcaneholocaust said:


> Sometimes I think a few people here love Maria Callas more than any single composer.


Yeah, go ahead: Blame the addict.

"My name is Blair and I am an addict. I've been Divina-free for. . . 'two whole days' now."

Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.

Once you 'get' her?-- its over. I have a boatload of singers. . . . . . but I just incessantly jones for Callas.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Yeah, go ahead: Blame the addict.
> 
> "My name is Blair and I am an addict. I've been Divina-free for. . . 'two whole days' now."
> 
> ...


And of course I not only "like" but "love" this post. 

Arcaneholocaust may have a point though. There are certain works that only ever work for me when Callas sings them Bellini's *Norma* is one, Cherubini's *Medea* another. Donizetti's *Anna Bolena* is yet another. Does that mean I love Callas more than the composer, or does it mean I love her because she brings out the genius of these scores in a way that few, if any, others can?


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I am loving reading the discussion between Figleaf and Woodduck, and it pains me that I can't "like" their posts!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> I hear the adroitness constantly - it's impossible for me not to notice it - and it bugs me. Narcissism is charming only when it's tongue-in-cheek: self-consciousness, preciosity and calculation, which came into Karajan's conducting at some date I haven't paid enough attention to determine, is alien to Wagner - and to Beethoven, and to any music I care about. I want a sense of naturalness, as if the music is playing itself, not being manipulated. When I hear the "mature" Karajan conduct Wagner and Verdi, I hear Karajan's Wagner and Verdi. I want to hear Wagner and Verdi. In operas he recorded early and late, I prefer the early one every time (not that I've heard them all). Thank God his _Falstaff_ was early enough to benefit from his superb ear yet escape Karajan-Karamelization.
> 
> Richard, not Herbie, was the magician. The conductor is the sorcerer's apprentice, who takes orders, executes them, and gives his master the credit. If he does that well, he won't lack for recognition and needn't strike sophisticated poses to get it.


Frankly I cannot understand this sort of post. Whatever conductor we have on the rostrum we get 'his' [name composer].
Hence we have Solti's Wagner, Haitinck's Wagner, Klemperer's Wagner, etch.
This does not just apply to Karajan. Of course, he had his own way of doing it. But when you get such wildly differing interpretations on record of the music such as Krauss' and Knappersbusch's Parsifal then we must say that the music is Wagner's but the conception is the conductors. This applies across the board. 
Compare Bohm's Tristan with Kleiber's or Knappersbusch's or Goodall's - are they all doing 'Wagner's Tristan? Yes, but in their own ways! I find the constant harping that it is 'Karajan's not the composer's' somewhat tiresome. As is the 'Karajan-Karamelization' jibe. Listening to what James Galway said on the documentary quickly disposes of that one! 
Karajan is one of the few conductors who can make me love Wagner - so don't spoil it!


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## tgtr0660 (Jan 29, 2010)

Out of respect for others I have to acknowledge the greatness of Wagner's Parsifal, even though I'm not really sold on it being any great. And no, I can't get into it. It's nothing with Wagner (I adore the Ring, Tannhauser, I even like Tristan which is s difficult opera, and in general I like all his operas), but Parsifal seems to me an exercise in nothingness. I try, yet I can't.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

tgtr0660 said:


> Out of respect for others I have to acknowledge the greatness of Wagner's Parsifal, even though I'm not really sold on it being any great. And no, I can't get into it. It's nothing with Wagner (I adore the Ring, Tannhauser, I even like Tristan which is s difficult opera, and in general I like all his operas), but Parsifal seems to me an exercise in nothingness. I try, yet I can't.


Much of the music of Parsifal is very fine - some of Wagner's best. Just ignore the pseudo-religious stuff in the libretto!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Frankly I cannot understand this sort of post. Whatever conductor we have on the rostrum we get 'his' [name composer].
> Hence we have Solti's Wagner, Haitinck's Wagner, Klemperer's Wagner, etch.
> This does not just apply to Karajan. Of course, he had his own way of doing it. But when you get such wildly differing interpretations on record of the music such as Krauss' and Knappersbusch's Parsifal then we must say that the music is Wagner's but the conception is the conductors. This applies across the board.
> Compare Bohm's Tristan with Kleiber's or Knappersbusch's or Goodall's - are they all doing 'Wagner's Tristan? Yes, but in their own ways! I find the constant harping that it is 'Karajan's not the composer's' somewhat tiresome. As is the 'Karajan-Karamelization' jibe. Listening to what James Galway said on the documentary quickly disposes of that one!
> Karajan is one of the few conductors who can make me love Wagner - so don't spoil it!


Sorry, David. Don't mean to offend. You are right, of course; many conductors have "styles," though some are less idiosyncratic than others, and, I find, more suitable to some composers than others. We can disagree about who gets to the heart of a given composer best. For me, no one on records understands _Tristan_ like Furtwangler, or _Parsifal_ like Knappertsbusch (unless we go back to Karl Muck). I'm not a fan of Solti's slashing style in Wagner in general, but I think a lot of his _Ring_ is exciting (his _Tristan_ is poor, his _Parsifal_ very solid). I'm open to different interpretations, certainly. And as far as Karajan goes, I find his fanatical attention to suave sonority marvelous for Strauss and, interestingly, for Sibelius. Of Wagner, _Parsifal_'s diaphanous sonorities are definitely his cup of tea, though I prefer Kna's greater naturalness. But I noticed decades ago that that Karajan's cultivation of surface sheen could often preclude a sense of spontaneity in the music-making of those who played under his baton, one indication being the absence of "breath commas" between musical phrases, which you can hear in his BPO Beethoven symphonies and which one critic referred to as "autobahn phrasing." As a singer, and one who feels that musical phrasing should generally model itself on singing, I found this "smoothing over" between phrases quite unnatural. Karajan did not always conduct this way - not before, I think, he made the BPO his personal vehicle - but I won't go into his attributes further. I really don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment (if I haven't already)!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I am loving reading the discussion between Figleaf and Woodduck, and it pains me that I can't "like" their posts!


It's all right. We have never doubted your good taste. Have we, Figleaf?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Sorry, David. Don't mean to offend. You are right, of course; many conductors have "styles," though some are less idiosyncratic than others, and, I find, more suitable to some composers than others. We can disagree about who gets to the heart of a given composer best. For me, no one on records understands _Tristan_ like Furtwangler, or _Parsifal_ like Knappertsbusch (unless we go back to Karl Muck). I'm not a fan of Solti's slashing style in Wagner in general, but I think a lot of his _Ring_ is exciting (his _Tristan_ is poor, his _Parsifal_ very solid). I'm open to different interpretations, certainly. And as far as Karajan goes, I find his fanatical attention to suave sonority marvelous for Strauss and, interestingly, for Sibelius. Of Wagner, _Parsifal_'s diaphanous sonorities are definitely his cup of tea, though I prefer Kna's greater naturalness. But I noticed decades ago that that Karajan's cultivation of surface sheen could often preclude a sense of spontaneity in the music-making of those who played under his baton, one indication being the absence of "breath commas" between musical phrases, which you can hear in his BPO Beethoven symphonies and which one critic referred to as "autobahn phrasing." As a singer, and one who feels that musical phrasing should generally model itself on singing, I found this "smoothing over" between phrases quite unnatural. Karajan did not always conduct this way - not before, I think, he made the BPO his personal vehicle - but I won't go into his attributes further. I really don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment (if I haven't already)!


So Karajan's 'fanatical' attention to pure velvet is stilted artificiality surface sheen, whereas of course Knappertsbusch's 'fanatical' attention to being an invisible wall flower is 'getting to the essence of Wagner.'

Not for me, Baby. _;D _


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Woodduck said:


> Sorry, David. Don't mean to offend. You are right, of course; many conductors have "styles," though some are less idiosyncratic than others, and, I find, more suitable to some composers than others. We can disagree about who gets to the heart of a given composer best. For me, no one on records understands _Tristan_ like Furtwangler, or _Parsifal_ like Knappertsbusch (unless we go back to Karl Muck). I'm not a fan of Solti's slashing style in Wagner in general, but I think a lot of his _Ring_ is exciting (his _Tristan_ is poor, his _Parsifal_ very solid). I'm open to different interpretations, certainly. And as far as Karajan goes, I find his fanatical attention to suave sonority marvelous for Strauss and, interestingly, for Sibelius. Of Wagner, _Parsifal_'s diaphanous sonorities are definitely his cup of tea, though I prefer Kna's greater naturalness. But I noticed decades ago that that Karajan's cultivation of surface sheen could often preclude a sense of spontaneity in the music-making of those who played under his baton, one indication being the absence of "breath commas" between musical phrases, which you can hear in his BPO Beethoven symphonies and which one critic referred to as "autobahn phrasing." As a singer, and one who feels that musical phrasing should generally model itself on singing, I found this "smoothing over" between phrases quite unnatural. Karajan did not always conduct this way - not before, I think, he made the BPO his personal vehicle - but I won't go into his attributes further. I really don't want to spoil anyone's enjoyment (if I haven't already)!


Don't worry! No offence taken! I just find the comments of certain critics incomprehensible, especially after what was revealed by the players who actually played under HvK in the recent documentary. What we have hear is a matter of taste. Interesting that Wagner wold have probably found Knappersbusch et al too slow for his taste as he (Wagner) tended to favour faster tempi. One reason Wieland Wagner hired Bohm and Boulez although I do not care to much for them as I find them quite monochrome. I have the Karajan 1961 Parsifal live and it is an enthralling experience as is the later digital version. They are actually very different which rather puts out he window the charge that Karajan always conducted in the same way. For me his conducting actually makes me love the music but I do realise this is a matter of taste and is subjective. Interestingly it was Kna who introduced me to Wagner's music in an old Ace of Clubs recording bought when I was a lad. To me Knappersbusch and Karajan conducting Wagner were two very different but valid experiences. To say that Kna was "more natural" is a subjective not an objective point as Karajan sometimes used to stop conducting and let the players do their own 'natural' thing! 
No offence friend! Just good discussion and sharing of points of view!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> So Karajan's 'fanatical' attention to pure velvet is stilted artificiality surface sheen, whereas of course* Knappertsbusch's 'fanatical' attention to being an invisible wall flower* is 'getting to the essence of Wagner.'
> 
> *Not for me, Baby.* _;D _
> 
> View attachment 58387




You may have _listened_ to Kna's _Parsifal_. Apparently you haven't actually _heard_ it...

Tootsie.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You may have _listened_ to Kna's _Parsifal_. Apparently you haven't actually _heard_ it...
> 
> Tootsie.


I digested it without eating it.

How 'runway' is that?


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> I am loving reading the discussion between Figleaf and Woodduck, and it pains me that I can't "like" their posts!


Aww, thank you, Greg! I enjoy your posts as well :tiphat:


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I don't really know what he thought of Wagner. He had done a couple of Lohengrins in Italian early in his career but never sang in German as far as I know. But he apparently knew some of Tristan's music and sang a bit of it offstage for the critic Huneker, who was very moved by it. I'm sure he brought an Italianate legato to it that would have made it unusually beautiful, and I think his dark timbre was perfect for that role. But there's no evidence that he had plans for it. If only he hadn't been a heavy smoker!


Thank you for that nugget of information. Huneker is very interesting- I only discovered his writings when I was researching Victor Maurel, who Huneker also admired, and knew socially in his later years. He seems to have had rather privileged access to the great singers of the day, and few qualms about revealing scandalous information, about his friend Maurel at least. Who knows what fascinating facts Huneker might have revealed about Maurel and Caruso had he not died shortly before they did!


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I digested it without eating it.
> 
> How 'runway' is that?


Who's this person I always see in your posts?


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Dustin said:


> Who's this person I always see in your posts?


Lady Miss Diva Australian Super Model, Elle Mac*pher*son-- one of my all time favorite photogenic and telegenic runway models.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Lady Miss Diva Australian Super Model, Elle Mac*pher*son-- one of my all time favorite photogenic and telegenic runway models.


Ok i gotcha. Just thought it might be you! But then again, I was pretty sure you were a guy.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Dustin said:


> Ok i gotcha. Just thought it might be you! But then again, I was pretty sure you were a guy.


How would you know?

Perhaps your woman's intuition is failing you.


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## Dustin (Mar 30, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> How would you know?
> 
> Perhaps your woman's intuition is failing you.
> 
> View attachment 58748


Well this still doesn't prove anything but I think I remember in your past flirtatious remarks towards female pictures. Or maybe I imagined it all


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Dustin said:


> Well this still doesn't prove anything but I think I remember in your past flirtatious remarks towards female pictures. Or maybe I imagined it all


No, you didn't. I flirt with everybody. _;D_


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> Sorry I misread. *If* I were to get a recording of *Elektra* it would probably be the Nilsson/Solti. But I think it's unlikely I will. I did have it on LP and it sorely tried my patience!


I've loved ELEKTRA since I was in college; I find the music enthralling and, yes, beautiful. I did listen to the famous Nilsson/Solti recording a couple of times, and I can't say I really enjoyed it. For me the low points were Marie Collier's Chrysothemis, which I remember as sounding underpowered, and that hyper-aggressive stereo sound, which for me is just too much. I'm not the biggest Solti fan, either. If you want something else, I'd check out the Sinopoli version with Alessandra Marc as Elektra (this is one of my favorite opera recordings). There's also one with Eva Marton that I've heard is excellent.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Amazing how many people on this forum are cool toward _Aida_. It has such imaginative, beautiful music. Too much Egyptology? The characters just don't quite live the way they do in some of Verdi's other operas, except maybe Amneris.


honestly, Aida feels more verismo-y than Verdi's earlier operas (which feel a bit more vocally 3 dimensional)



> I'm with you on _Norma_ except when Callas is Norma. Without her, I still love some of the melodies but wouldn't listen to the whole work or go to see it. Maybe Ponselle would've done it for me too. Sutherland definitely doesn't. But that's another subject...


I can sympathize. Sutherland's Casta Diva and Ah Belo are second to none, and Marisa Galvany does justice to the more aggressive, witchy passages (particularly in In Mia Man), but only Callas succeeds in capturing ALL of Norma, from top to bottom, delicate to dramatic and tender to vengeful (what makes Norma so great as an opera is the way it swings from extremes within the same role. unfortunately, this aspect is precisely why 95% of singers who attempt it fail miserably).


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> ...ELEKTRA... I'd check out the Sinopoli version with Alessandra Marc as Elektra (this is one of my favorite opera recordings).


I'll second that :tiphat: Elektra is a very powerful piece and Marc is sensational!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

I simply cannot get through Tristan Und Isolde. I have never gotten past most of the second Act, with that interminable, tedious Love Duet! I feel Wagner would have benefitted from a strict editor. Die Meitersinger I have stood through till the end, but have since shunned it. Way too long, very unfunny for a comedy, a ponderous yawn from beginning to end. Yet both are considered masterpieces...


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> *Il Trovatore* I love far more than *Aida* for some reason, and I'm not entirely sure why. Many of my reasons for not loving *Aida* could also be leveled at *Il Trovatore*, but I love its rude vigour, the sheer fecundity of its melodic invention. Having recently listened to both operas (from the Callas set), it was still *Il Trovatore* that made the greatest impression on me.


I am with you, GM - I love *Trovatore* more than *Aida*, wore out most of my LPs, especially the *Callas* and Price/Mehta sets. Though I love most of *Aida*, the ballet music drives me crazy! The Triumphal Scene could use a pair of scissors, though I understand the need for pageantry.


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Bellinilover said:


> I've loved ELEKTRA since I was in college; I find the music enthralling and, yes, beautiful. I did listen to the famous Nilsson/Solti recording a couple of times, and I can't say I really enjoyed it. For me the low points were Marie Collier's Chrysothemis, which I remember as sounding underpowered, and that hyper-aggressive stereo sound, which for me is just too much. I'm not the biggest Solti fan, either. If you want something else, I'd check out the Sinopoli version with Alessandra Marc as Elektra (this is one of my favorite opera recordings). There's also one with Eva Marton that I've heard is excellent.


I *adore* Elektra! The first time I saw it, it enthralled me completely, so I hardly moved for 90 minutes. The *Solti* recording has always been my favorite, and the Rysanek film is an interesting take on the opera.







Demented!


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I can never get through La Forza del Destino. Starts off so exciting and then... well, tavern carousal and endless scenes with friars is all I can remember.

Not as bad as Rigoletto, which is thoroughly depressing and highly contrived.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Where do I begin? Parsifal, Otello, Don Giovanni...


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Becca said:


> Where do I begin? Parsifal, Otello, Don Giovanni...


Well, if you can't get into something having given it a decent shot, fair enough- but speaking personally, I never got into Verdi's Otello as a complete opera (as opposed to the fragments recorded by Tamagno and Maurel and a handful of other extracts on other ancient recordings) until I heard this version recently:










Also, while it won't make you like the music if you don't already, there are a couple of books which are guaranteed to pique the interest of anyone keen on the performance history of Verdi's operas, being revealing, gossipy and written around the time of the premiere: _Verdi, Milan and Othello: Being a Short Life of Verdi, with Letters Written about Milan and the New Opera of Othello _ by Blanche Roosevelt, and _A Propos de La Mise En Scene Du Drame Lyrique Otello: Etude Precedee D'Apercus Sur Le Theatre Chante En 1887 _ by Victor Maurel. The Maurel book is included in his anthology _Dix ans de carriere_ and the Roosevelt one is available as a free download, I can't remember where unfortunately.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

MAS said:


> *I simply cannot get through Tristan Und Isolde. I have never gotten past most of the second Act, with that interminable, tedious Love Duet! *I feel Wagner would have benefitted from a strict editor. Die Meitersinger I have stood through till the end, but have since shunned it. Way too long, very unfunny for a comedy, a ponderous yawn from beginning to end. Yet both are considered masterpieces...


You made it into the second act? Kudos! :lol:

Life is short- and some art is very, very long indeed.


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

MAS said:


> I simply cannot get through Tristan Und Isolde. I have never gotten past most of the second Act, with that interminable, tedious Love Duet! I feel Wagner would have benefitted from a strict editor. Die Meitersinger I have stood through till the end, but have since shunned it. Way too long, very unfunny for a comedy, a ponderous yawn from beginning to end. Yet both are considered masterpieces...


LOL, now that is fighting talk. When I first heard it, I liked the first act and the last act. But the middle, act 2, could not comprehend. Once you understand the Liebestod at the end of act 3, then go back and listen to act 2.

To me Tristan und Isolde is the greatest art work of the 19th Century. It is so great that it is like a medieval cathedral A cathedral of sound. There is very little action, very much dialogue, yet everything is in the music.

Have had the privilege to see this opera twice, live. And here is my favorite moment. It is worth the five hours.


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

MAS said:


> I simply cannot get through Tristan Und Isolde. I have never gotten past most of the second Act, with that interminable, tedious Love Duet! I feel Wagner would have benefitted from a strict editor. Die Meitersinger I have stood through till the end, but have since shunned it. Way too long, very unfunny for a comedy, a ponderous yawn from beginning to end. Yet both are considered masterpieces...


Tedious???


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Celloman said:


> Tedious???


Celloman, we must be patient and understanding with our fellow operaphiles. Not everyone's fantasy vacation destination is "das Wunderreich der Nacht," especially if they have only two weeks off work in August. Besides, as we know, "dies suesse woertlein, und" is hard to give up! I don't know when you first imbibed "der furchtbare Trank," but I was sucked into the "Weltatems wehendem All" by age 15. I have since come to realize that this is distinctly abnormal (though actually I had some inkling of it even then, as my contemporaries were all listening to the Beatles) and so I'm no longer amazed at the reluctance of others to give up the blandishments of "der tueckische Tag."

Give them time. When Frau Minne calls, Liebestod cannot be far away.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

MAS said:


> I simply cannot get through Tristan Und Isolde. I have never gotten past most of the second Act, with that interminable, tedious Love Duet! I feel Wagner would have benefitted from a strict editor. Die Meitersinger I have stood through till the end, but have since shunned it. Way too long, very unfunny for a comedy, a ponderous yawn from beginning to end. Yet both are considered masterpieces...


This thread made me to get into Tristan und Isolde. So one should never say never. Peoples tastes and preferences change.


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## Xavier (Jun 7, 2012)

An opera I acknowledge to be great but can never get into?

1) Berg's _Lulu_


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

For me it's Rossini's Armida. I love the first act, but that ballet section at the end of Act II drags the whole thing down for me. My enjoyment of the work never recovers.


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## Rangstrom (Sep 24, 2010)

Xavier said:


> An opera I acknowledge to be great but can never get into?
> 
> 1) Berg's _Lulu_


Just last week I pulled out my Boulez recording of Lulu (vinyl, purchased in the early 80s). Probably my 3rd or 4th time through and it still does nothing for me. Well there is some interesting use of the saxophone at times, but otherwise no. Maybe you need to see it on the stage but I can't see spending any more money on Lulu. And, yes, I do find many modern operas--including Wozzeck--worth the effort.

Back to the OP, two that I admit are great but mostly leave me cold are Le Nozze di Figaro (the last third does seem like "too many notes") and Tosca (tawdry little opera).

Some of the most cited here are among my all-time favorites: Tristan, Giovanni and Les Troyens. I have no position on ABBA, I'm not sure I've ever listened to ABBA.


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

The more I see and hear the Magic Flute, the less I can remember why I used ot like it. Or is that a different thread?

I watched the The Bergman Film after it was highlighted here and found much to admire, but the tide has yet to turn on this one.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Der Rosenkavalier is an opera that a lot of people like and I have heard parts of it that sounds really beautiful but when I try listening to the opera it just says stop I just can´t manage to go through it.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Sloe said:


> Der Rosenkavalier is an opera that a lot of people like and I have heard parts of it that sounds really beautiful but when I try listening to the opera it just says stop I just can´t manage to go through it.


Try a DVD, perhaps seeing it will help you.


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Aida is an opera that has never clicked with me. I have tried though I really have... At first I though maybe I wasn't a big fan of Verdi as it was only the third Verdi opera I had seen but then I heard Il Trovatore and several more and realized that wasn't it. Next I though maybe it was the stage of his development but I tried Don Carlos and Boccanegra (83 version) and loved both of those. Finally I came to the conclusion that while parts were beautiful there was just something about it that I wan't a big fan of. It is probably my third least favourite Verdi Opera out of the 10 I have seen and definitely the most famous of those (the others are Stiffelio and Nabucco).


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

There are a few

Aida doesnt really interest me the way in which Verdi's other operas do... La forza del destino is another which although I love doesnt have the same effect.
Neither does la Bohème interest me in the way Tosca and Butterfly do.
Norma and la sonnambula are both extraordinary with Callas in the lead roles, but with anyone else I find them far les interesting.
Cavalleria Rusticana and Pagliacci have never been my thing either, nor has Carmen... I have to be in a certain mood to want to listen to that.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm almost surprised to find myself agreeing with most of the last half-dozen posts.

_Lulu:_ I've liked it a bit more with greater familiarity - it's musical complexities are at least interesting and there are some haunting passages - but it is filled with awfully unsympathetic people, and often the score just seems busy.

_Figaro:_ Starts out charmingly but goes on rather too long, and recitatives tend to bore me. Better seen than merely listened to. Not a big Mozart fan in any case.

_Der Rosenkavalier:_ Beautiful passages - the presentation of the rose, the trio, the Italian aria - but I get annoyed and bored with Ochs and that whining girl-boy-girl and those kids yelling "Papa!" It tries to be funny but just tries my patience.

_Aida:_ Not the favorite Verdi of a lot of people, I've noticed. Hard to figure. Maybe it's hard to connect with these one-dimensional characters wandering about in a big Egyptian postcard.

_Carmen_ except with Callas, and then the whole bel canto school (Donizetti, Bellini, Rossini's serious operas, early Verdi)... Well, it pretty much has to be Callas or nobody.

In addition to these, I must send to the doghouse _Elektra_ - all those neurotic, hysterical, screaming women! Sheer hokum! - and probably _Tosca_ performed by anyone but Callas and Gobbi.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Burroughs said:


> There are a few
> 
> Aida doesnt really interest me the way in which Verdi's other operas do... La forza del destino is another which although I love doesnt have the same effect.
> Neither does la Bohème interest me in the way Tosca and Butterfly do.
> ...


I must say Aida is an opera that affects me something enormous.
La Boheme is an opera that I both love and get annoyed by. I like most of it but the jolly parts are so annoying.
I really like Cavvaleria Rusticana but not so much Pagliacci.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Some of the longest evenings of my life have been in opera houses watch *The Magic Flute* and *Faust*. Although I admit they are literally long evenings, but that only exacerbates the issue.


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> I'm almost surprised to find myself agreeing with most of the last half-dozen posts.
> 
> _Lulu:_ I've liked it a bit more with greater familiarity - it's musical complexities are at least interesting and there are some haunting passages - but it is filled with awfully unsympathetic people, and often the score just seems busy.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with your point on Tosca but can sympathize. When I saw it on youtube I was not a massive fan though liked it well enough repeated viewings and the De Sabata have swayed me over to it significantly more so with the result it's my second favourite after my beloved Il Trittico. I tried watching the first 15 minutes of Figaro once but I am not a massive fan of constantly repeating verses of Liberetto without end and/or purpose which is why I enjoy so much of Puccini due to the near absence of repetition and Verdi as he develops as the repetition either serves a purpose (the finale of Rigoletto iwth it's use of La Donna e mobile) or is used sparingly to greater effect (such as in much of Il Trovatore).


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

anmhe said:


> For me it's Rossini's Armida. I love the first act, but that ballet section at the end of Act II drags the whole thing down for me. My enjoyment of the work never recovers.


Not even with the Mirror Trio?


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Actually Nilsson, fine as her recording is, wouldn't be my ideal Salome either. I was just looking for the silliest imagery, and Birgit/Blair felt right. I choose the astounding Maria Cebotari, who looked gorgeous and sounded like this:


The recorded Salome I like is Cheryl Studer. I suppose she has a lighter voice than is usually heard in the role, but on CD it "works," at least for me.

_Der fliegende Hollander_ is an opera I don't dislike yet am a bit "cold" towards. You'd think I would love it considering my love for bel-canto lines; but the fact is I can't get into the story the way I can get into the story of _Tannhauser._


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> Not even with the Mirror Trio?


Even mentioning this work in this thread amazes me, stunning opera.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

don't know if Saint-Saens *Samson and Delilah* was mentioned here, but for me it is an opera with three arias  and I do love them.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Even mentioning this work in this thread amazes me, stunning opera.


Hey, if it was a popular opinion it wouldn't be worth mentioning. I grant that there are many great parts in Armida, but it just doesn't work as a whole. To be fair, I make a point to revisit operas I don't like (usually with different recordings) just so I can let the work win me over. I'm not a hater, I'm a novice fan that tries to challenge my own negative opinions.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

anmhe said:


> Hey, if it was a popular opinion it wouldn't be worth mentioning. I grant that there are many great parts in Armida, but it just doesn't work as a whole. To be fair, I make a point to revisit operas I don't like (usually with different recordings) just so I can let the work win me over. I'm not a hater, I'm a novice fan that tries to challenge my own negative opinions.


Fair enough answer.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

MAS said:


> I simply cannot get through Tristan Und Isolde. I have never gotten past most of the second Act, with that interminable, tedious Love Duet! I feel Wagner would have benefitted from a strict editor.


I can see why the Schopenhauer-fanboy words might come across as a drag but, orchestrally, the Love Duet is extraordinary, almost chamber-like in its beauty. Try listening to the Love Duet in those terms, and you might warm to it a bit more.


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## Volodya O (Aug 24, 2016)

For me it would be Tristan & Isolde. I've only heard parts of it. The music was great!


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Whilst I acknowledge Gluck's importance in the history of opera, his operas leave me cold. Despite the best efforts of conductors like Marc Minkowski and John Eliot Gardiner, who (among others) have opened my ears to the wonders of baroque and early classical opera, I haven't been able to get into Gluck at all.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Volodya O said:


> For me it would be Tristan & Isolde. I've only heard parts of it. The music was great!


That's a bold statement but always nice to see a new view, welcome to Talk Classical by the way.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Whilst I acknowledge Gluck's importance in the history of opera, his operas leave me cold. Despite the best efforts of conductors like Marc Minkowski and John Eliot Gardiner, who (among others) have opened my ears to the wonders of baroque and early classical opera, I haven't been able to get into Gluck at all.


Glad I'm not the only one. Strange, because there are gorgeous arias and other set pieces, and wonderfully inventive orchestral passages and dramatic moments. You can see at times how he inspired Berlioz. I feel similarly about French Baroque opera, including Rameau: beautiful music, but static, like a succession of pictures in a gallery. Seeing a well-staged performance would probably help.


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## Chronochromie (May 17, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Glad I'm not the only one. Strange, because there are gorgeous arias and other set pieces, and wonderfully inventive orchestral passages and dramatic moments. You can see at times how he inspired Berlioz. I feel similarly about French Baroque opera, including Rameau: beautiful music, but static, like a succession of pictures in a gallery. Seeing a well-staged performance would probably help.


Static is certainly not something that comes to mind when listening to Rameau.

There's a few great performances with good stagings available to watch on Youtube, this one of the 1754 version of Castor et Pollux being one of my favorites.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Whilst I acknowledge Gluck's importance in the history of opera, his operas leave me cold. Despite the best efforts of conductors like Marc Minkowski and John Eliot Gardiner, who (among others) have opened my ears to the wonders of baroque and early classical opera, I haven't been able to get into Gluck at all.


I have to say I really like Iphigenia in Tauris it is the only opera with secco recitatives I like together with Rake´s Progress.


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