# Beethoven - Missa Solemnis (Op. 123)



## insanetk

I am looking for a great recording for this piece that is hardly known by most people. Do you guys have anything to recommend? I am wondering how Leonard Bernstein's recording of it is too.


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## David C Coleman

insanetk said:


> I am looking for a great recording for this piece that is hardly known by most people. Do you guys have anything to recommend? I am wondering how Leonard Bernstein's recording of it is too.


This is the recording I've got at the moment. And it's stonkingly good...!!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-M...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1213261340&sr=1-1


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## billeames

My opinion is Bernstein DG is best. Klemperer also great to have. Levine DG is slower but powerful. Other good ones: Harnoncourt, Barenboim Chicago. Gardiner is original instruments. Bernstein also has a Sony one.


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## SixFootScowl

Of about six I have I really like the Ormandy Missa Solemnis. But I just found out that Gundula Janowitz, a superb soprano, sings on a Karajan Missa Solemnis.


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## DavidA

I have Karajan 1966 on DG is the best IMO.. Some of his tempi are slow but he produces an amazing spiritual atmosphere.
The soloists - Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich and Berry have never been equalled. 
Janowitz is absolutely wonderful as she soars through the difficult writing.

For HIP go for Gardiner or Herrewegh.


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## CDs

Just picked up the Herreweghe version. So good!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000...herreweghe&dpPl=1&dpID=21KMF1K5XXL&ref=plSrch


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## hpowders

insanetk said:


> I am looking for a great recording for this piece that is hardly known by most people. Do you guys have anything to recommend? I am wondering how Leonard Bernstein's recording of it is too.


Very fine. So is Otto Klemperer. If sound is no object, Arturo Toscanini.


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## KenOC

My absolute fave is Gardiner's newer recording with the ORR and the Monteverdi Choir.


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## Heck148

I like Toscanini/NBC/'53 - as always with AT - great power and intensity....Klemperer is good too, and I'd like to hear what Solti does with it.


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## Pugg

I have the Bernstein version anyway of the week please.


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## Brahmsianhorn

My two favorites, one historical and the other in modern sound:

Bruno Walter










Eugen Jochum










Other versions I have held onto through the years: Krauss, Toscanini '40, Bernstein (Sony), Karajan, Kubelik, and Gardiner


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## Becca

The Klemperer recording has always been my special Missa Solemnis, so much so that I never gave much thought to checking out others ... until this week. After going through a number of Fidelios, it seemed only right to check out other options for the Mass. Yesterday I sampled a variety of versions, both HIP and otherwise, including the newer Gardiner, Herreweghe, Haitink/BRSO, and Giulini but none of them really seemed to do much for me. I am not sure exactly what I was looking for, an updated Klemperer perhaps (maybe I have been too imprinted by it!) Yet I like the idea of something different, maybe HIP, but still giving me a similar feeling of this incredible work.

I was going to continue today but before doing so, I was scanning over the latest batch of reviews on MusicWeb International and came across a review for a new recording with Daniel Reuss and the Orchestra of the 18th Century which intrigued me. So to Spotify and there it is, I am currently at the end of the Gloria and this versions seems to be exactly what I was looking for. I have plenty more to listen to so more later but based on the initial listen, I commend this to your attention.

View attachment 93691


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## SixFootScowl

I am still sticking with the Ormandy recording over my others which include Harnoncourt, Karajan, Rilling, and Zinman.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> I am still sticking with the Ormandy recording over my others which include Harnoncourt, Karajan, Rilling, and Zinman.


If you have the time, do try Bernstein, just little bit more juicy.


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## AfterHours

I am planning on revisiting this towering masterpiece very soon, so this thread provided some great recommendations to try out. Bernstein's and Klemperer's were probably my most memorable renditions from the last time I was listening to it, which was some 5+ years ago (can't believe I've held out so long!). I've heard very good things about the most recent Harnoncourt, Herreweghe and Gardiner.


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## Pugg

AfterHours said:


> I am planning on revisiting this towering masterpiece very soon, so this thread provided some great recommendations to try out. Bernstein's and Klemperer's were probably my most memorable renditions from the last time I was listening to it, which was some 5+ years ago (can't believe I've held out so long!). I've heard very good things about the most recent Harnoncourt, Herreweghe and Gardiner.


Those two are miles apart, I am curious how you are going on.


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## AfterHours

Pugg said:


> Those two are miles apart, I am curious how you are going on.


As great as those are, I am curious to see what those 3 HIPsters have up their sleeve, so I'll figure out a way to summon the determination  The Missa, unlike many of Beethoven's works, seems a bit more conducive to period practice (provided it's well-executed of course). Plus, I'm a big fan of Harnoncourt, Herreweghe and Gardiner. Don't know if any of them can match/top Bernstein's or Klemperer's but several of Harnoncourt's recent recordings (of Mozart, Beethoven) have been quite striking, and Herreweghe and Gardiner are masters of vocal performance, so you never know.


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## Becca

After listening to all of it, I _very_ strongly recommend the Reuss recording which I mentioned above. It has many of the same virtues as the other HIP recordings but has more of the emotional impact of the piece and is not trying to set any speed records. The Klemperer, which remains my favourite, is about 79", the Reuss is 75" and the other HIP recordings are closer to 70" which just feels too fast.

P.S. It is a live recording from Utrecht, October 2016


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## AfterHours

Becca said:


> After listening to all of it, I _very_ strongly recommend the Reuss recording which I mentioned above. It has many of the same virtues as the other HIP recordings but has more of the emotional impact of the piece and is not trying to set any speed records. The Klemperer, which remains my favourite, is about 79", the Reuss is 75" and the other HIP recordings are closer to 70" which just feels too fast.
> 
> P.S. It is a live recording from Utrecht, October 2016


I'll have to add this one to my (ridiculous) list of recordings to discover/revisit :tiphat:


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## AfterHours

So far, I revisited Klemperer's and checked out Harnoncourt's for the first time. 

Harnoncourt's is exceptional and idiosynchratic. More inward and devotional and less "operatic" than others. Maybe even the 2nd best rendition I've heard. Klemperer's is even better than I remembered. It's undoubtedly one of the greatest recordings ever (of any piece) and hard to imagine being topped. An overwhelming triumph in every way.


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## Vaneyes

For this work, do not overlook Sir Roger. Recorded 1999. :tiphat:


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## AfterHours

KenOC said:


> My absolute fave is Gardiner's newer recording with the ORR and the Monteverdi Choir.


Gardiner would be enough, but even without him the cover alone would make me want to listen to it!


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## AfterHours

Vaneyes said:


> For this work, do not overlook Sir Roger. Recorded 1999. :tiphat:


His Beethoven 9th with the same orchestra is astounding -- the best rendition I've ever heard actually -- so, even though Norrington is usually very hit and miss to me, I wouldn't be surprised if he produced a fascinating rendition of the Missa Solemnis!


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## Ralphus

I am loving the new Harnoncourt. (I'm not sure if other mentions of him are referring to this recording, or the earlier one on Teldec). And I picked up the Kubelik just today.


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## Konsgaard

I have most available recordings. For me no-one is better than Levine on DG. With 3 different choirs you would expect it to be a sluggish performance, but on the contrary it is faster than some historically-informed ones when it comes to the Gloria and the Credo. The violin solo is the most moving in the Benedictus. The 4 singers, big names all of them, are amazing. All in all, this is my personal favourite by far, a desert island disc, and one of the most spiritual performances of anything I have heard (it is *that* good). I remember some outstanding reviews when it was first released. First-rate sound too!


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## Mandryka

Konsgaard said:


> I have most available recordings. For me no-one is better than Levine on DG. With 3 different choirs you would expect it to be a sluggish performance, but on the contrary it is faster than some historically-informed ones when it comes to the Gloria and the Credo. The violin solo is the most moving in the Benedictus. The 4 singers, big names all of them, are amazing. All in all, this is my personal favourite by far, a desert island disc, and one of the most spiritual performances of anything I have heard (it is *that* good). I remember some outstanding reviews when it was first released. First-rate sound too!


It's an extremely good operatic performance, I preferred it to Klemperer's and Karajan's with Van Dam and Schreier. You have to want that sort of singing to enjoy it, rather than a more devotional, less flamboyant approach.

If you have most of the available recordings, maybe you could help me. What I want is something that's devotional, not at all operatic, without losing any of the dionysian aspect. These days if I want to hear it I tend to turn to one of the later Harnoncourt recordings, or to Gielen. Can I do any better given my tastes?


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## Becca

I recommend this version which is available on CD...






Here is a link to a review from which I have quoted the first paragraph...

'_On the first page of the booklet note for this release, above all the technical credits, reads a small but important statement: "In memory of Frans Brüggen."_'

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2017/Apr/Beethoven_solemnis_GCD921124.htm


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## Konsgaard

For me operatic is not antithetical to devotional. But I understand you want singing that is a bit understated. I would try both Gardiner's and Herreweghe's late recordings - both are on Spotify if you would like to sample them. I prefer Harnoncourt's 1st account more than his recent one. But for me most HIP performances don't capture Beethoven's vision not in the grand fugues and not in the lovely Benedictus when the solo violin often sounds ugly when played by a period instrument.


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## Konsgaard

Also you might want to try this:









I prefer it to Gardiner's. A HIP recording that adds more weight to the orchestral parts, not sounding like Beethoven-light, thus achieving a very nice balance. As The Telegraph reviewer says: "If you've always had your doubts about the piece, this may be the recording that quells them."


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## CDs

Listening to this great work again today (Bohm). Will be looking into Klemperer's and a few others mentioned in this thread.


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## Brahmsianhorn

Ralphus said:


> View attachment 94191
> View attachment 94192
> 
> 
> I am loving the new Harnoncourt. (I'm not sure if other mentions of him are referring to this recording, or the earlier one on Teldec). And I picked up the Kubelik just today.


The Kubelik is excellent. Might be the best recording of all. Bruno Walter's 1948 live recording packs a punch if you can handle primitive sound.


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## Polyphemus

My favourite Missa S


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## SixFootScowl

I am still sticking with Ormandy as my absolute favorite:


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## hpowders

Polyphemus said:


> View attachment 97658
> 
> 
> My favourite Missa S


Yes, it's a legendary performance.


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## Pugg

Florestan said:


> I am still sticking with Ormandy as my absolute favorite:


It's a very good one, I stick with the Bernstein with Eileen Farrell.


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## KenOC

This fairly recent recording is the finest Missa I have ever heard.


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## DavidA

Polyphemus said:


> View attachment 97658
> 
> 
> My favourite Missa S


Main problem tp me in this version is the soloists who don't sound well as recorded and certainly don't gel very well together. Some of Klemperer's speeds are ponderous - his earlier performance was better.


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## DavidA

DavidA said:


> Main problem tp me in this version is the soloists who don't sound well as recorded and certainly don't gel very well together. Some of Klemperer's speeds are ponderous - his earlier performance was better.


The choir however is superb


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## HistoryJoe

Listening to the Kubelik right now. Very fine. Just ordered the newish Gardiner. My main recording before this was Robert Shaw's 1987 outing with the ASO. Any love for that one?


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## wkasimer

HistoryJoe said:


> Listening to the Kubelik right now. Very fine. Just ordered the newish Gardiner. My main recording before this was Robert Shaw's 1987 outing with the ASO. Any love for that one?


Like most of Shaw's ASO recording, it's long on polish and short on interpretive insight.


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## WildThing

My big three are the 1940 Toscanini, the Klemperer, and Kubelik. But Bernstein with the Concertgebouw is also good, and I like Harnoncourt's latest for HIP.


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## CnC Bartok

My favourite is possibly a less-known one, the one done by Jeffrey Tate on EMI. It's smallish-scale, but oddly doesn't feel that small. The orchestral detail is wonderful, as is the singing. A wonderful CD!


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## Mandryka

CnC Bartok said:


> My favourite is possibly a less-known one, the one done by Jeffrey Tate on EMI. It's smallish-scale, but oddly doesn't feel that small. The orchestral detail is wonderful, as is the singing. A wonderful CD!
> 
> View attachment 123284


I want a small scale one which feels small, one voice to a part and preferably a cappella


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## RobertKC

For those who enjoy Blu-ray audio/video, consider this 2012 performance by Nikolas Harnoncourt and the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra Amsterdam featuring 1080 video and DTS HD MA 5.0 surround sound (plus a PCM stereo track):










Excellent audio and video quality.


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## flamencosketches

I need to finally get a copy of this famous work. From this thread, a few of the names mentioned have interested me, and those are Bernstein, Klemperer, Ormandy, and Gardiner (whose Missa I have heard once before and enjoyed). Going to sample these and report back.


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## Michael Rydzynski

Big classical fan (and musician) here. Does anyone know who the violin soloist is on the 1966 Klemperer stereo recording? No credit is given on the vinyl or CD formats.


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## Becca

Michael Rydzynski said:


> Big classical fan (and musician) here. Does anyone know who the violin soloist is on the 1966 Klemperer stereo recording? No credit is given on the vinyl or CD formats.


Hugh Bean - he was the Philharmonia's leader (concertmaster) at the time.


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## wkasimer

Becca said:


> Hugh Bean - he was the Philharmonia's leader (concertmaster) at the time.


And a very, very underrated violinist. His recordings of the Elgar concerto and sonata are superb.


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## flamencosketches

I just bought another Beethoven Missa Solemnis: Gardiner/ORR/Monteverdi Choir (actually, the copy I have says "English Baroque Soloists" rather than ORR, but reissues change this—safe to assume the two ensembles are one and the same?)—thoughts on this recording? I also have Klemperer and Ormandy, of which I prefer Klemperer, but I wanted a HIP recording and was so impressed with Gardiner's recording of the Mass in C that I figured I would give this one a shot. Gardiner usually hits it home with choral recordings, I find.


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## Granate

They are different orchestras with the same conductor. But I'm sure you didn't get it wrong. Both recordings are superlative in HIP standards and I just remain undecided about which one is better.


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## flamencosketches

Just to clarify, these are the two album covers I'm seeing.

The one I have:










The other one that I've seen:










Are these really different recordings with different orchestras...?


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## CnC Bartok

^^^ Same recording. Identical timings. My copy says "English Baroque Soloists", I bought it when it was fresh off the press; the ORR wasn't founded until 1990, the recording date says 11/89. It's a very fine recording, very much in the same vein as his Symphony recordings with the same D) forces. Fresh, and paced brilliantly, stupendous recording quality. But the antithesis of the grandiose forces of a Klemperer or Karajan, or indeed a Giulini (all of whom are excellent, btw!)

My favourite Missa remains Jeffrey Tate's.

On the forces involved, according to Wikipedia: 
In 1990 Gardiner formed the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique, another period instrument ensemble. The Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique specialises in a later repertoire than that of the English Baroque Soloists, but shares some players.


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## CnC Bartok

wkasimer said:


> And a very, very underrated violinist. His recordings of the Elgar concerto and sonata are superb.


And so is his Lark Ascending under Adrian Boult!


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## Josquin13

They are the same recordings. The English Baroque Soloists was Gardiner's original period band in the 1980s, & sole group, and he didn't officially rename it the Orchestre Révolutionaire et Romantique for his performances & recordings of post-Baroque music until 1990, after the Missa Solemnis had been recorded. However, at the time of the recording, the newly adapted ensemble was for all intents and purposes the future ORR, so the name of the group was changed for subsequent reissues. What you bought was the very first CD issue. Maybe it will become a collector's item one day.

By the way, the Monteverdi Choir has incredible virtuosity. They're worth hearing live, if you ever get the opportunity, and are a big part of the reason why Gardiner often excels at choral music.

For a deeper understanding of the Missa Solemnis, it's important to notice that both Gardiner & Klemperer chose not to bring the chorus in too soon in the Sanctus in accordance with Beethoven's original score, leaving the vocal parts to be sung by the soloists as a vocal quartet, much like a Renaissance motet being accompanied by an orchestra. It makes the Sanctus less operatic and bombastic, and more like chamber music. That separates their recordings from most other versions (with the exception of recordings by conductors Tate, Gardiner 2, Kvam, and recently Reuss--that I know of, who likewise don't bring the chorus in too soon). Ormandy does not do this. If you're interested in learning more, I explained the differences in more detail in post #57 of the following Talk Classical thread on the Missa Solemnis: https://www.talkclassical.com/64162-missa-solemnis-4.html?highlight=beethoven+missa+solemnis

Btw, Hugh Bean made one of my two favorite recordings of Vaughan Williams' The Lark Ascending, with Sir Adrian Boult, who is my favorite conductor for pre-WW2 British composers. (The other is violinist Iona Brown, with Sir Neville Marriner, and the two interpretations compliment each other well.)

EDIT: Whoops. I see that CnCB beat me to it, and posted a response to your question before me. He even adds a liking for Hugh Bean's Lark Ascending! So, as it turns out, I'm only confirming what CnCB said. However, I won't erase my post because I did make one or two other points that I think are important, regarding the vocal quartet & chorus entrance in the Sanctus.


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## Granate

flamencosketches said:


> Just to clarify, these are the two album covers I'm seeing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are these really different recordings with different orchestras...?





















Watch out because you could still be getting this. It's brilliant anyway.

And I knew nothing about the name change. Mindblown. Thank you Josquin13.


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## Josquin13

I just wanted to make clear that The English Baroque Soloists has continued as the group & name that Gardiner uses when he performs and records music of the Baroque and early Classical music periods. Understandably, it wasn't an appropriate name for an ensemble making period recordings of the music of late Beethoven, Berlioz, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Debussy, etc. But I expect that both groups--the Orchestre Révoltionaire et Romantique and English Baroque Soloists--include many of the same musicians.


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## adriesba

The only recording I have of the piece is an obscure one conducted by Gustav Kuhn on the Col Lengo label. I was rather clueless when I bought it. Perhaps my lack of desire to listen to the piece is due to not choosing a more well known performance.


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## flamencosketches

Granate said:


> Watch out because you could still be getting this. It's brilliant anyway.
> 
> And I knew nothing about the name change. Mindblown. Thank you Josquin13.


I'm interested already  I'll spend more time with what I have first. The Missa has not fully "clicked" with me yet, but I suspect there is greatness in it. I really like how Beethoven writes for choir and the human voice. While I wasn't always entirely convinced of his abilities in this area, recently it's clicked and become one of my favorite things about his music.

@Josquin, thank you for clarifying. You've confirmed my suspicions.


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## wkasimer

Josquin13 said:


> They are the same recordings. The English Baroque Soloists was Gardiner's original period band in the 1980s, & sole group, and he didn't officially rename it the Orchestre Révolutionaire et Romantique for his performances & recordings of post-Baroque music until 1990, after the Missa Solemnis had been recorded. However, at the time of the recording, the newly adapted ensemble was for all intents and purposes the future ORR, so the name of the group was changed for subsequent reissues. What you bought was the very first CD issue. Maybe it will become a collector's item one day.


No, the catalogue number indicates that this is a Music Heritage Society reissue. They simply licensed the cover from the original issue. It should sound exactly the same, though.


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## flamencosketches

wkasimer said:


> No, the catalogue number indicates that this is a Music Heritage Society reissue. They simply licensed the cover from the original issue. It should sound exactly the same, though.


Not sure which catalog number you're going off there, but the one I have is definitely not a MHS reissue.


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## wkasimer

flamencosketches said:


> Not sure which catalog number you're going off there, but the one I have is definitely not a MHS reissue.


Look at the upper right-hand corner of the image you posted. Catalogue numbers starting with"D" are MHS numbers.


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## flamencosketches

wkasimer said:


> Look at the upper right-hand corner of the image you posted. Catalogue numbers starting with"D" are MHS numbers.


If that is indeed the case I question why there is absolutely no indication on the packaging that this CD has anything to do with MHS, unlike all of the many other MHS bootlegs I have, and ditto for this Discogs entry

https://www.discogs.com/Beethoven-C...MilesMonteverdi-ChoirEnglish-/release/8452838

I see that it says "Club Edition", but normally MHS plasters their ugly logo all over the CD case and booklet.


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## wkasimer

flamencosketches said:


> If that is indeed the case I question why there is absolutely no indication on the packaging that this CD has anything to do with MHS, unlike all of the many other MHS bootlegs I have, and ditto for this Discogs entry
> 
> https://www.discogs.com/Beethoven-C...MilesMonteverdi-ChoirEnglish-/release/8452838
> 
> I see that it says "Club Edition", but normally MHS plasters their ugly logo all over the CD case and booklet.


Usually, but not always - I've bought lots of CD's in used CD stores where the only indication that it's an MHS product is the telltale catalogue number. In fact, there are some recordings that I've only seen with MHS catalogue numbers, and have never seen a copy of the original product. An example:









I've seen many copies of this one in used CD bins and online, and have never actually seen a copy that didn't bear an MHS catalogue number. A lot of Teldec CD's were licensed by MHS, and except for the catalogue number, you'd never know the difference.

In reality, it really doesn't matter unless you're a compulsive collector - or are planning to sell what you think may be a "collector's item" - because the MHS reissues are essentially worthless in that regard.


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## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> If that is indeed the case I question why there is absolutely no indication on the packaging that this CD has anything to do with MHS, unlike all of the many other MHS bootlegs I have, and ditto for this Discogs entry
> 
> https://www.discogs.com/Beethoven-C...MilesMonteverdi-ChoirEnglish-/release/8452838
> 
> I see that it says "Club Edition", but normally MHS plasters their ugly logo all over the CD case and booklet.


MHS _bootlegs_? I didn't think they were bootlegs! So they're not legit? Is their sound quality affected?


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## wkasimer

adriesba said:


> MHS _bootlegs_? I didn't think they were bootlegs! So they're not legit? Is their sound quality affected?


They're not "bootlegs". They're completely legal reissues; MHS purchased the rights to issue the recordings. And in my experience, they sound identical to the originals.


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## adriesba

wkasimer said:


> They're not "bootlegs". They're completely legal reissues; MHS purchased the rights to issue the recordings. And in my experience, they sound identical to the originals.


Ah, OK. That's a relief.


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## adriesba

How are either of Solti's two recordings?


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## Simplicissimus

I’m reading this thread with particular interest because I’m listening to the Missa Solemnis a lot these days and have in mind to buy another version to add to the one in my CD collection. About ten years ago in Germany I bought the recording by Kurt Masur/Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, 1973, on Berlin Classics. I was attracted to this one because I tend to like Masur’s work with the Gewandhausorchester from this period, I like two of the vocal soloists (Anna Tomowa-Sinotow and Peter Schreier), and I’d read that the recording engineering and sound quality were good (which they are). I really don’t have enough experience with other recordings to comment on the relative merits of this one. All I can say is that I find it more than adequate and have enjoyed it for years. But I’ve become more interested in the Missa Solemnis to the point of wanting another recording, preferably in SACD sound, and certainly with a fine interpretation and beautiful vocal soloist performances. While I’m a HIP guy for Baroque and somewhat for Classical, I’m not especially concerned about that aspect of any new recording I’d buy.

I’ve noted the recordings mentioned and discussed up to now in this thread. Some others I’ve noticed which have not received any or much attention are:

Maasaki Suzuki/Bach Collegium Japan, 2018, BIS. This is in SACD surround/stereo and I assume it’s HIP.

Herbert Blomstedt/Gewandhausorchester, 2012, Figaro. No idea about this, though I’m pro-Blomstedt.

Bernard Haitink/Chor und Symphonieorchester des Bayrischen Rundfunks, 2014, BR Klassik. I tend to like Haitink with Beethoven.

Frieder Bernius/Kammerchor Stuttgart und Hofkapelle Stuttgart, 2018, Carus. This was recorded at the Kloster Alpirsbach, so it could have interesting acoustics. Intriguing.

Marek Janowski/Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin, 2016, Pentatone. Live recording. This is an SACD. I’m strongly attracted to this one because I’m pro-Janowski, admire Pentatone productions, and think a live performance could be exciting.

William Steinberg/Kölner Rundfunkchor und Sinfonie-Orchester, 1973, ICA Classics. I’m pro-Steinberg and was impressed by Merl’s recent positive review of his Beethoven symphony cycle. Sound should be fine.

Helmuth Rilling/Stuttgart Bach Collegium und Gächinger Kantorei, 2001 (released), Hännsler Classic. The draw for me here is that one of my favorite singers, Andreas Schmidt, is in the bass role.

Looking forward to continuing to follow this interesting thread concerning a piece of great interest to me.


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## DavidA

Karajan recorded it numerous times but this one from the 60s is really special with four eye watering soloists, Janowitz, Ludwig, Wunderlich and Berry. The whole thing has a rapt reverential atmosphere. Karajan seems to conjure phrases out of the air in the Kyrie.


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## flamencosketches

wkasimer said:


> Usually, but not always - I've bought lots of CD's in used CD stores where the only indication that it's an MHS product is the telltale catalogue number. In fact, there are some recordings that I've only seen with MHS catalogue numbers, and have never seen a copy of the original product. An example:
> 
> View attachment 137491
> 
> 
> I've seen many copies of this one in used CD bins and online, and have never actually seen a copy that didn't bear an MHS catalogue number. A lot of Teldec CD's were licensed by MHS, and except for the catalogue number, you'd never know the difference.
> 
> In reality, it really doesn't matter unless you're a compulsive collector - or are planning to sell what you think may be a "collector's item" - because the MHS reissues are essentially worthless in that regard.


Thank you for clarifying! Damn it, MHS strikes again! 

@adriesba, no, no. They're not really bootlegs. I just dislike them so much that they might as well be in my eyes. Cheap packaging, low-resolution artwork, etc. Not sure if I can tell any audio difference (not that my ears ought to be a bellwether in any case; I don't pretend to be an audiophile), but I can think of at least one MHS disc where it seems they've added a couple of seconds of gap in between tracks, which quite well ruins the listening experience for some of the works.


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## adriesba

flamencosketches said:


> Thank you for clarifying! Damn it, MHS strikes again!
> 
> @adriesba, no, no. They're not really bootlegs. I just dislike them so much that they might as well be in my eyes. Cheap packaging, low-resolution artwork, etc. Not sure if I can tell any audio difference (not that my ears ought to be a bellwether in any case; I don't pretend to be an audiophile), but I can think of at least one MHS disc where it seems they've added a couple of seconds of gap in between tracks, which quite well ruins the listening experience for some of the works.


OK, I see. :lol:

Which recording is the one you think has added gaps between tracks? Perhaps I should avoid it.

A nearby CD/LP store has a bunch of MHS CDs for some reason.


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## flamencosketches

adriesba said:


> OK, I see. :lol:
> 
> Which recording is the one you think has added gaps between tracks? Perhaps I should avoid it.
> 
> A nearby CD/LP store has a bunch of MHS CDs for some reason.


Peter Serkin playing the late Beethoven sonatas. It totally spoils the Hammerklavier.

All the used stores near me are chock full of MHS. I'm guessing a lot of people in my area were subscribers back in the '80s and '90s, and these people are now deceased/no longer collecting.


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