# The death of improvisation in Classical Music



## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

A common criticism from Jazz and Rock fans is that Classical Music has no living soul because it has no improvisation - but merely the robotic playing of music, a recanted liturgy. Indeed classical performers are seldom trained in improvisation, or even in ear to any proficiency. Yet this wasn't always the case, improvisation was highly prized in the Baroque and Classical eras, and seems to have died out sometime during the Romantic? Why was this?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Improvisation was what the great Baroque composers and Classical composers were often known for. It was part of their training to improvise and then compose. Bach, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, all were great at improvising. They often improvised at the keyboard and then composed. Improvisation remained with the piano virtuoso like Liszt and Chopin.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Many classical musicians (and composers) are good at improvisation and some do it in live performances, but I think its become less common over time because people have come to revere these composers of the past and want to perform the works as they were composed, and I think this is generally how classical audiences want to hear them, (including myself) on recordings. 

I do like some improvisation in live performances and I think it is something all serious musicians should practice.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

I think one must be careful where there is an established, printed text or score to follow, that everybody-especially the audience--understands what the rules are going to be when following that text or score. Poetry would be somewhat unnerving if you went to a reading, expecting to hear X, which has always thrilled and moved you, and instead hear Y. Similarly with CM. There was a very interesting piece on PBS the other night on the malleability of memory. I inferred from that, that this malleability allows the non-professional auditor of music the ability to freshly enjoy repeat performances of the same work, performed the same way, because their memories of the piece have slightly--or maybe significantly--altered from their last hearing of it. So in that sense, the improvisation is taking place within the brains of the majority of any audience without any need for the performer to improvise. And this way, the text or score itself remains untouched and sacrosanct for future performances and audiences. But if the idea of performer improvisation is to be pursued, the audience should be told in advance what to (not) expect; the rules must be clear, and understood by all.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

classical music as we know it now , what it became by now is nothing but a written improvisation  Bach's, Chopin's works are pure improvisation , one version well written down and after that repeated countless times by those who can read music :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

helenora said:


> classical music as we know it now , what it became by now is nothing but a written improvisation  Bach's, Chopin's works are pure improvisation , one version well written down and after that repeated countless times by those who can read music :lol:


Sharp, very sharp and good analyse :tiphat:


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

Those who are interested in early music will be used to improvisation. We're going a Summer School in August promising "Ground bass (playing and improvising over these) for strings, winds & chordal instruments" not to mention playing divisions on a ground. One standard example of Baroque improvisation is the second movement of the third Brandenburg Concerto. Improvisation is alive and well in HIP players.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

It's an interesting question. Even apart from pure improvisation, there's lots of evidence that Mozart and his contemporaries expected soloists to embellish the written parts, and would have been very surprised to hear someone play only what's written on the page.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

helenora said:


> classical music as we know it now , what it became by now is nothing but a written improvisation  Bach's, Chopin's works are pure improvisation , one version well written down and after that repeated countless times by those who can read music :lol:


I don't really understand what this means. In a musical context, if the composer writes it down, how is it improvised?


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2016)

GreenMamba said:


> I don't really understand what this means. In a musical context, if the composer writes it down, how is it improvised?


In the early days not everything was written down,for example the ornamentation " what the music makes alive" was not written out.One knew how to play it and there was a lot of freedom for the instrumentalist to exhibte his artistic taste and abilities.
Bartok is one of the composers that has everyting written down with very (no) little room to improvise.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Even though I am 100% HIP, I try to stay away from buying recordings of Bach and Mozart violin and keyboard works where the performer improvises to fill in where Bach and Mozart expected it.

The reason is improvisations should delight the ear and come as a complete surprise. However, after listening to a Bach Keyboard Partita with Igor Kipnis as the performer, for example, one easily anticipates the ornaments because one has heard them many times before in repeated playings of the CD.

Therefore, give me my Haydn, Mozart, Bach and Handel "straight up" on CDs but improvise away in live concert performances!!


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2016)

If you look to the pieces of Louis Couperin (cembalo),there is so little on paper and in the same time so much ,but that is the part of the instrumentalist.Without this improvisation the music would be boring to death.
The music of Hotteterre the same story,without improvisation the (this) music is lifeless.


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## Pyotr (Feb 26, 2013)

Couchie said:


> ... Why was this?


Good question. Back in the day, composers would frequently invite a performer to improvise at certain points in the work (e.g., cadenza ad libitum). 
Last Saturday at a concert I attended, the violinist did improvise at the end of 1st mvmt Brahms violin concerto, I liked it. As long as they are not too lengthy, I usually do enjoy them.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

One of Mozart's most beautiful melodies is found at the beginning of the Romanze, the second movement of his Keyboard Concerto No. 20.

When this melody is repeated, I have heard different soloists over-ornament this beautiful melody, making it practically unrecognizable. This is simply musical graffiti and the keyboardists who do this should be arrested.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

traverso said:


> In the early days not everything was written down,for example the ornamentation " what the music makes alive" was not written out.One knew how to play it and there was a lot of freedom for the instrumentalist to exhibte his artistic taste and abilities.
> Bartok is one of the composers that has everyting written down with very (no) little room to improvise.


I understand that. I just don't understand what is meant by calling it "written improvisation" rather than no or less improvisation. Chopin is "pure improvisation"?


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Death of improvisation in Classical Music?

Huh? I dunno 'bout dat - Take a look at dis all you hepcats:






From what I understand, the Maestro improvised on a theme he had in his head - And the spectacular result we can all witness...


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## Janspe (Nov 10, 2012)

To say that Chopin's pieces in their published form are mere written down improvisations is absolutely not true. Sure, improvisation was indeed a huge aspect of his artistry, but he worked very hard, especially later in his life, to achieve just the right form of any piece about to be published. The effect often is that of a fantastically spontaneous improvisation, but that's just a part of Chopin's magic. I don't think he ever allowed his improvisations as such to be published - which is, of course, a pity, I'd love to hear that!

I appreciate people who improvise very much, but I dislike the way in which non-improvising musicians are sometimes criticized. Improvising isn't for everybody, and there's certainly room for all kinds of musicians. Classical music, as in interpreting scores, certainly isn't dry or robot-like - just the opposite!


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

Improvisation of the mind kind not the finger kind, though certainly of a well fingered one.


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