# atonal music, movies and... positive emotions



## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

I know that the title is kind of weird, but i want to make an experiment. As i have said other times, i have no problems with atonal music in general, but i've alway connected it with we can consider negative emotions and in movies it's easy to find tons of examples where atonality is used with great effect to suggest horror, terror, despair, tension, eeriness etc. But there are those who say that the emotions connected with atonality are not so narrow, but frankly i can't think of any example of scenes using atonal music to suggest happiness, love, joy or similar feelings. 
So... can you think of any example that contradict my idea?


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Probably no examples from movies, norman, as the film industry is predicated on cliche, especially in its use of music.

And if an art film did something otherwise, how many people would even notice that they're hearing what you've called "atonal"?

If you want examples of non- or pan-tonal music (or of dodecaphony or serialism) that can be associated with positive emotions, two things must happen, you must listen to that music yourself, as it appears in compositions (and not in mood-setting scenes in movies), and, even more importantly, you must listen without any baggage. The latter may be the most difficult, so much so that you (and other posters) will be able to claim, if you're so inclined, that that music cannot convey anything but "horror, terror, despair, tension, eeriness[,] etc.," and that anyone who says otherwise is just engaging in special pleading. In any event, what is the point of music? To suggest emotions or to make cool sounds?

The whole issue of "emotion" in music takes us right back to where these kinds of conversations always seem to flounder, that place where we deny an active relationship between the listener and the sounds, with the listener contributing something, too, that place where we want desparately (it seems) to have everything we hear and experience be an objective quality of the music alone.

Otherwise, generalizations about broad categories of music is certainly not as interesting or useful as particularizations about individual pieces. And not to contradict what I just said or anything, but here's a _useful_ generalization: each "atonal" piece is different from each other "atonal" piece, and has a range of sounds and patterns and can be reacted to in many ways by many different listeners. Just like any other piece.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Yeah, forget the movie music; it's too tied to the action, even if it's really music and not string-pulling sounds, to be separated from it.

The late music of Schnabel is as non-tonal as he could make it (mostly), and I get no bad vibes from it. What I do get is good-natured novelty, with the occasional knuckleball. Dutilleux(sp) provides the variety of emotion that more conventional music does. Nah, I think maybe the OP is just scared of the dark.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

You might look to Hindemith. When he's uppity and fast, he has something that seems closer to conventionally more positive going on. Of course, there are many tonal elements to his music. There is often a dryness to his music that doesn't confront much darkness in the romantic sense.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> Probably no examples from movies, norman, as the film industry is predicated on cliche, especially in its use of music.


well, thousand and thousand of people, directors and composers with different tastes, a century of movies all around the world and you think that the music used in it it's all based on clichè? One hundred years ONLY of clichè? 



some guy said:


> If you want examples of non- or pan-tonal music (or of dodecaphony or serialism) that can be associated with positive emotions, two things must happen, you must listen to that music yourself as it appears in compositions (and not in mood-setting scenes in movies).


the music contributes a lot to a scene of a movie. And it's obviously chosen to elicit a certain effect. So my idea is that if no one in a century has not used atonal music to suggest certain emotions it's a proof of what i've said above.



some guy said:


> and, even more importantly, you must listen without any baggage. The latter may be the most difficult, so much so that you (and other posters) will be able to claim, if you're so inclined, that that music cannot convey anything but "horror, terror, despair, tension, eeriness[,] etc.," and that anyone who says otherwise is just engaging in special pleading. In any event, what is the point of music? To suggest emotions or to make cool sounds?
> 
> The whole issue of "emotion" in music takes us right back to where these kinds of conversations always seem to flounder, that place where we deny an active relationship between the listener and the sounds, with the listener contributing something, too, that place where we want desparately (it seems) to have everything we hear and experience be an objective quality of the music alone.
> 
> Otherwise, generalizations about broad categories of music is certainly not as interesting or useful as particularizations about individual pieces. And not to contradict what I just said or anything, but here's a _useful_ generalization: each "atonal" piece is different from each other "atonal" piece, and has a range of sounds and patterns and can be reacted to in many ways by many different listeners. Just like any other piece.


I know that every atonal piece is different, but where am i generalizing? If in millions of movies of any era it's not possible to find a single example of what i've requested, no offense i think that it's an empirical demonstration that it's more indicative than the opinion of "some guy" or "norman bates" in a forum


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Yeah, forget the movie music; it's too tied to the action, even if it's really music and not string-pulling sounds, to be separated from it.
> 
> The late music of Schnabel is as non-tonal as he could make it (mostly), and I get no bad vibes from it. What I do get is good-natured novelty, with the occasional knuckleball. Dutilleux(sp) provides the variety of emotion that more conventional music does.


as i've said, i'm more interested in an empirical proof.
And the movies shooted by Some guy are not valid!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

The movie would be more experimental and though you could see the happiness, a sense of surrealism would probably be communicated. I imagine that atonal music with rhythmic drive and lean classical type phrasing, such as Hindemith kind of is, would be the type to go along with such a film.

With skill, atonal sounding music can be light as opposed to heavy, but then it seems to me to be a sort of quirky, and intellectual lightness.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

The moral, norman, is that if you don't find the happiness in atonal music, you're a useless human being, and if your struggle continues for decades, forget everything you know and just make it up. :tiphat:


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2012)

Polednice said:


> The moral, norman, is that if you don't find the happiness in atonal music, you're a useless human being, and if your struggle continues for decades, forget everything you know and just make it up. :tiphat:


No, the moral is that different people will find different things in any particular piece. In any event, movies use plenty of tonal music as well to convey "negative" emotions. (Tonal music has always been able to convey a broad range of emotions. As has music that doesn't use common practice tonality. Partly that's because, as suggested in _my_ moral, different people are able to derive different things from one and the same piece of music.)


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

To find excellent examples of 12-tone music in portraying drama, plot and the characters' development, go to opera. First up of course is Berg's _Wozzeck_. Bartok's _Bluebeard Castle_ is also a fine example, especially if you prefer a shorter piece - it's just under an hour in length. Enjoy!

P.S.
As for member _some guy's_ usual quick response in threads like these, his "advice"/opinion/whatever tends to be overtly presscriptive in general that it does little else other than flounder the thread. A few of us have declred his "advice"/opinion/whatever has made no impact whatsoever on how we listen to music, especially the cacophonic random industrial noise sounds that apparently qualify as such.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> No, the moral is that different people will find different things in any particular piece. In any event, movies use plenty of tonal music as well to convey "negative" emotions. (Tonal music has always been able to convey a broad range of emotions. As has music that doesn't use common practice tonality. Partly that's because, as suggested in _my_ moral, different people are able to derive different things from one and the same piece of music.)


yes, but i totally agree that tonal music can be used to express sadness and negative feelings, and i think i can find a lot of examples of this. I'd like to see if the opposite it's possible with atonal music. And by possible i mean that i'd like to see precise examples. After all, if as you say different people hear different things in a piece i don't think it would be difficult.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

norman bates said:


> yes, but i totally agree that tonal music can be used to express sadness and negative feelings, and i think i can find a lot of examples of this. I'd like to see if the opposite it's possible with atonal music. And by possible i mean that i'd like to see precise examples.


And now we're back to the op! I tried. What do you think of Hindemith? Does it qualify or does he use too many tonal triads? HC had some suggestions as well, and I think opera is a great place to look too. Hanz Werner Henze is another strong composer in that arena.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

some guy said:


> No, the moral is that different people will find different things in any particular piece. In any event, movies use plenty of tonal music as well to convey "negative" emotions. (Tonal music has always been able to convey a broad range of emotions. As has music that doesn't use common practice tonality. Partly that's because, as suggested in _my_ moral, different people are able to derive different things from one and the same piece of music.)


I don't actually disagree with you that much, some guy, what I dislike about some of your posts is that someone will ask a fairly innocuous question, and you'll respond with a mini lecture in relativism. How about you just offer something that fits the criteria in your subjective experience and see if the OP responds to it?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> And now we're back to the op! I tried. What do you think of Hindemith? Does it qualify or does he use too many tonal triads? HC had some suggestions as well, and I think opera is a great place to look too. Hanz Werner Henze is another strong composer in that arena.


Yeah! Henze! Lots of non-tonal emotionally varied stuff. Probably a better suggestion than Schnabel; easier to find, and easier to get into.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

clavichorder said:


> And now we're back to the op! I tried. What do you think of Hindemith?


i know his music only superficially, but i'm interested in the association with movies and particular scenes. Because my experience is exactly that atonal music convey only certain feelings. And it's great for that, i can think a lot of horror/thriller/dramatic movies using atonality, but do you know any romantic and tender scene with two lovers with webern as a background? Or a group of friends joking and laughing while the music is a piece of Babbit?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Yeah! Henze! Lots of non-tonal emotionally varied stuff. Probably a better suggestion than Schnabel; easier to find, and easier to get into.


guys, no offence but i'm not looking for suggestions (i think that there are other topics on the argument) or personal opinion, i'm more curious to know if the whole world outside talkclassical there are directors and composers who, without anything to demonstrate have used in the past or in the present atonality to suggest positive feelings.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

norman bates said:


> guys, no offence but i'm not looking for suggestions (i think that there are other topics on the argument) or personal opinion, i'm more curious to know if the whole world outside talkclassical there are directors and composers who, without anything to demonstrate have used in the past or in the present atonality to suggest positive feelings.


Well OK, if you want to be that way.

No.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

norman bates said:


> yes, but i totally agree that tonal music can be used to express sadness and negative feelings, and i think i can find a lot of examples of this. I'd like to see if the opposite it's possible with atonal music. And by possible i mean that i'd like to see precise examples. After all, if as you say different people hear different things in a piece i don't think it would be difficult.


I think this is an interesting point. The question is not really, "Are there _any_ listeners who find that atonal music elicits happiness, love, joy or similar feelings?" There is enough variation in human psychology that almost any suggested view could find _some_ support. The questions is, "Are there a _significant number_ of listeners who find that atonal music elicits happiness, love, joy or similar feelings such that movies will utilize atonal music to those ends?"

If the answer is "yes", that would be interesting. If the answer is "no", there could be three reasons. First, humans overwhelmingly will never find atonal music eliciting emotions similar to happiness, love, or joy. Second, humans in reasonably numbers _can_ feel those emotions in atonal music, but _at this time_ few people have experienced the necessary conditions to respond with "positive" emotions to atonal music. Finally, movie producers/directors/composers may simply have chosen not to use atonal music for an effect that could work.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

I'm a bit confused now. You said, "I want precise examples" and then "I don't want suggestions" - do you mean that you don't want suggestions of atonal music that sounds happy, but positive proof of film composers who have attempted to use it in that way?


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> [...]
> Finally, movie producers/directors/composers may simply have chosen not to use atonal music for an effect that could work.


_Well_, it took you long enough to get there.

"Incidental" movie music has one purpose - to enhance the viewers' connection with the scene. I refuse to insult anyone's intelligence with further elaboration.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Yeah! Henze! Lots of non-tonal emotionally varied stuff. Probably a better suggestion than Schnabel; easier to find, and easier to get into.


His later stuff is emotionally charged and easier to get into. Some of the earlier symphonies are more abstract. I don't buy in to the opinion that atonal music only congers up negative emotions. I just find certain pieces harder to enjoy or get into than others.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I don't actually disagree with you that much, some guy, what I dislike about some of your posts is that someone will ask a fairly innocuous question, and you'll respond with a mini lecture in relativism. How about you just offer something that fits the criteria in your subjective experience and see if the OP responds to it?


That's where you probably don't understand member _some guy's_ idiom. Making recommendations often goes against it. "All music are equal in merit" type mentality voids recommendations. No ranking, nothing.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> I think this is an interesting point. The question is not really, "Are there _any_ listeners who find that atonal music elicits happiness, love, joy or similar feelings?" There is enough variation in human psychology that almost any suggested view could find _some_ support. The questions is, "Are there a _significant number_ of listeners who find that atonal music elicits happiness, love, joy or similar feelings such that movies will utilize atonal music to those ends?"
> 
> If the answer is "yes", that would be interesting. If the answer is "no", there could be three reasons. First, humans overwhelmingly will never find atonal music eliciting emotions similar to happiness, love, or joy. Second, humans in reasonably numbers _can_ feel those emotions in atonal music, but _at this time_ few people have experienced the necessary conditions to respond with "positive" emotions to atonal music. Finally, movie producers/directors/composers may simply have chosen not to use atonal music for an effect that could work.


i didn't mean exactly that there must be a large number of persons. If there are very few experimental unknown movie that use atonal music in some scene in that way i'd consider it as a proof of what some guy is saying. But though i'm an avid movie watcher i can't think of any example. And for me it's really the empirical demonstration of my theory, because one thing is to write an opinion on a forum, another is to make an artistic decision and associate what one feel is an appropriate music for a scene. And for what i know, even considering undeground movie i can't really think of any example of what i'm looking for.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Polednice said:


> I'm a bit confused now. You said, "I want precise examples" and then "I don't want suggestions" - do you mean that you don't want suggestions of atonal music that sounds happy, but positive proof of film composers who have attempted to use it in that way?


exactly (for the first i'm pretty sure there was yet a thread)


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

norman bates said:


> I know that the title is kind of weird, but i want to make an experiment. As i have said other times, i have no problems with atonal music in general, but i've alway connected it with we can consider negative emotions and in movies it's easy to find tons of examples where atonality is used with great effect to suggest horror, terror, despair, tension, eeriness etc. But there are those who say that the emotions connected with atonality are not so narrow, but frankly i can't think of any example of scenes using atonal music to suggest happiness, love, joy or similar feelings.
> So... can you think of any example that contradict my idea?


Great post. Great question. The underlying implication very important for the future of art music.

The connection between physics (the overtone series), and the design of the human ear and brain are not going to change. Just as a back rub will give pleasure, and a whip on the back, pain.

For over 100 years university intellectuals have tried to push atonality. It has never been accepted by the public, and never will be.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Truckload said:


> Great post. Great question. The underlying implication very important for the future of art music.
> 
> The connection between physics (the overtone series), and the design of the human ear and brain are not going to change. Just as a back rub will give pleasure, and a whip on the back, pain.
> 
> For over 100 years university intellectuals have tried to push atonality. It has never been accepted by the public, and never will be.


I've been circling the issue with _norman bates_, but you are right; it an interesting post and a good question.

That non-tonality will never be accepted by the 'public' (in this case the movie going/watching public) is a reasonable prediction. It may be that non-tonal music (i.e. not involving the overtone series) will not in the foreseeable future be able to evoke pleasant emotional feelings _except through secondary (rationally based) processes_. Millions of years of evolution make for a lot of inertia.

Folks who are used to listening to music that gets 'worked out' over a long process actually have developed an underlying ratiocination that is hitched to the music, whether or not they are aware of (or appreciate) the process; it's _linkage_. The basis for the functional success of non-tonal music rests in this linkage.

Classical music is far from alone in loosening tonality in the long workout; it's there in jazz, and near as I can tell very much there in some traditional Indian music.

And now _norman_, back to your question. The answer I think is still no.

:tiphat:


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Hilltroll72 said:


> I've been circling the issue with _norman bates_, but you are right; it an interesting post and a good question.
> 
> That non-tonality will never be accepted by the 'public' (in this case the movie going/watching public) is a reasonable prediction. It may be that non-tonal music (i.e. not involving the overtone series) will not in the foreseeable future be able to evoke pleasant emotional feelings _except through secondary (rationally based) processes_. Millions of years of evolution make for a lot of inertia.
> 
> ...


I am fascinated by your "linkage" concept. I would like to know more about that.

I agree that there has been a steady loosening of tonality in jazz, which has led to a steady decline in the popularity of the genre. At one time jazz was the most popular music in America, and was making inroads around the world. Of course those days are long gone now.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Truckload said:


> I am fascinated by your "linkage" concept. I would like to know more about that.
> 
> I agree that there has been a steady loosening of tonality in jazz, which has led to a steady decline in the popularity of the genre. At one time jazz was the most popular music in America, and was making inroads around the world. Of course those days are long gone now.


I feel like I've had at least one glass of wine too many to be expounding on the linkage concept tonight, even though it isn't very complicated. If I can find this post in the morning...


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> That's where you probably don't understand member _some guy's_ idiom. Making recommendations often goes against it. "All music are equal in merit" type mentality voids recommendations. No ranking, nothing.


Well, my dear HC, this wee post certainly demonstrates that you don't understand my "idiom," as you put it. (I have an idiom? Nice. I love "Holy Grail.")

Anyway, I do not think that all musics are equal in merit. What I think is that merit, if it's at all a valid concept, a useful concept to apply to the arts, is an individual thing. Some piece gives some person pleasure? Then that piece, for that person, has merit.

This is very simple. Not rocket science.

As for norman's thesis, as he has gradually elaborated it, I really do not see how "movie producers have only used 'atonal' music in movies to convey negative emotions" demonstrates that "'atonal' music can only convey negative emotions."

And if the only way to convince you that "atonal" music can convey any old emotion just as tonal music can is to point to a movie where "atonal" music has been used to convey joy or friendship or whatever, then I, for one, have no interest in trying to convince you.

We disagree. OK. Done.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> And if the only way to convince you that "atonal" music can convey any old emotion just as tonal music can is to point to a movie where "atonal" music has been used to convey joy or friendship or whatever, then I, for one, have no interest in trying to convince you.


So I guess Berg, Bartok, R. Strauss for example were just writing random 12-tone noise irrelavent for the development of their operas' characters, right? These folks must have been exceptionally gifted then because I don't see any new operas coming from cacophonic noise music producers these days, or have they now admitted that random noise music is in fact, truely incapable of any old emotion, hence just noise just for the sake of nosie? I would be fascinated today by examples of modern opera by contemporaries of _Merzbow_, or Keith Rowe who write opera in using their "methods".


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Back to the OP, another composer worth exploring of course is Benjamin Britten. Soem fine 12-tone examples include _The Rape of Lucretia_ (1946), _Billy Budd_ (1950s/60s as he revised it), and _The Turn of the Screw_ (1954).


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

norman bates said:


> I know that the title is kind of weird, but i want to make an experiment. As i have said other times, i have no problems with atonal music in general, but i've alway connected it with we can consider negative emotions and in movies it's easy to find tons of examples where atonality is used with great effect to suggest horror, terror, despair, tension, eeriness etc. But there are those who say that the emotions connected with atonality are not so narrow, but frankly i can't think of any example of scenes using atonal music to suggest happiness, love, joy or similar feelings.
> So... can you think of any example that contradict my idea?


It's hard for me, a non-musician, to tell the difference between so-called "atonal" and "tonal," but here we go.

*Bernard Herrmann *is the only one I can think of. He used a lot of "atonal" and other newer techniques. Of course, we all know where he used it for dark, psychological effect, eg. the score for Hitchcock's _Psycho_ (the famous scene where the girl is stabbed in the shower to those stabbing sounds from the violins).

But I know some of his other scores to some degree, and there is music depicting a wide variety of things there. Eg. _*North by Northwest *_has a love scene, where Cary Grant and Eve Marie Saint are on the train, it is what I'd call less tonal than 19th century music. Maybe more like Mahler or Zemlinsky or even the Schoenberg of _Transfigured Night_. So near-"atonal?"

A lot of move music was influenced by Holst's _The Planets_, eg. *John Williams'*_ *Star Wars *_film scores. That Holst work moved away from traditional tonality, into the realm of bitonality. Holst most likely knew the latest musics of guys like Debussy and Schoenberg when he wrote it. Probably Ives as well, listen to how Holst builds up these layers to 4 or 5 different things going on simultaneously in _Saturn, The Bringer of Old Age_ &_ Mercury, The Winged Messenger_. So again, most likely John Williams does use at least some "atonal" techniques, in depicting a wide variety of emotions.

But indeed, the most characteristic "atonal" scores, which actually were among the first "atonal" musics I heard - they are fine works - are used to depict darker and more dramatic stories. Eg. Jerry Goldsmith's _Planet of the Apes _(the orginal film version of the 1960's) and also things like_ Hiroshima Mon Amour_, that kind of "atonal" jazz score done by Giovanni Fusco and George Delerue.

& I agree with the gist of many people's comments here. People should try to answer the question of the OP, not ask why he's asking that question...


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

You could say that if all your life you were conditioned to associate atonality with love and tenderness, that would be as natural of an association as Romantic mushiness--but how does one support that argument? I guess you could have a kid and experiment. Overdub his Aladdin and Titanic DVDs with some Schoenberg.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Truckload said:


> Great post. Great question. The underlying implication very important for the future of art music.
> 
> The connection between physics (the overtone series), and the design of the human ear and brain are not going to change. Just as a back rub will give pleasure, and a whip on the back, pain.
> 
> For over 100 years university intellectuals have tried to push atonality. It has never been accepted by the public, and never will be.


i don't want to be so drastic, in the sense that i think that atonality or even harsh dissonances in the right contest is perfectly accepted and it's great. Talking of movies, George Crumbs's black angel on the exorcist it's perfect (i don't know if it's an atonal work but it's really harsh for sure). I can't think the same music on romantic scene of a light comedy (well i can imagine it used for surreal effects).


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Hilltroll72 said:


> Classical music is far from alone in loosening tonality in the long workout; it's there in jazz, and near as I can tell very much there in some traditional Indian music.


i think it's a process that happens in a lot of popular music too, metal, dance and electronic music (and it seems that every time it happens the genre lose his popularity, but that's another thread)


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> As for norman's thesis, as he has gradually elaborated it, I really do not see how "movie producers have only used 'atonal' music in movies to convey negative emotions" demonstrates that "'atonal' music can only convey negative emotions."


you say that different people hear different things in a piece of music, so why in the last century it is so difficult to find an example of a director who hear "different things"? 
I mean, the argument that it's all clichè seems _a bit_ weak (and disrepectful too).
I don't think that in more tha 100 years all the directors and all the movie composers were thinking of the possibility of a discussion of this kind in 2012 on talkclassical to go against Some guy's ideas. So why when they had to make a decision they used a certain kind of music always in the same way, until a proof of the contrary? Why you can find easily music of the most experimental composers, even in mainstream movies but never used to suggest other than the "usual" emotions?
It's an empirical proof for me.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Sid James said:


> It's hard for me, a non-musician, to tell the difference between so-called "atonal" and "tonal," but here we go.
> 
> *Bernard Herrmann *is the only one I can think of. He used a lot of "atonal" and other newer techniques. Of course, we all know where he used it for dark, psychological effect, eg. the score for Hitchcock's _Psycho_ (the famous scene where the girl is stabbed in the shower to those stabbing sounds from the violins).
> 
> But I know some of his other scores to some degree, and there is music depicting a wide variety of things there. Eg. _*North by Northwest *_has a love scene, where Cary Grant and Eve Marie Saint are on the train, it is what I'd call less tonal than 19th century music. Maybe more like Mahler or Zemlinsky or even the Schoenberg of _Transfigured Night_. So near-"atonal?"


i don't remember that scene but i want to watch it again, thank you.



Sid James said:


> A lot of move music was influenced by Holst's _The Planets_, eg. *John Williams'*_ *Star Wars *_film scores. That Holst work moved away from traditional tonality, into the realm of bitonality. Holst most likely knew the latest musics of guys like Debussy and Schoenberg when he wrote it. Probably Ives as well, listen to how Holst builds up these layers to 4 or 5 different things going on simultaneously in _Saturn, The Bringer of Old Age_ &_ Mercury, The Winged Messenger_. So again, most likely John Williams does use at least some "atonal" techniques, in depicting a wide variety of emotions.
> 
> But indeed, the most characteristic "atonal" scores, which actually were among the first "atonal" musics I heard - they are fine works - are used to depict darker and more dramatic stories. Eg. Jerry Goldsmith's _Planet of the Apes _(the orginal film version of the 1960's) and also things like_ Hiroshima Mon Amour_, that kind of "atonal" jazz score done by Giovanni Fusco and George Delerue.


i've seen hiroshima mon amour and planet of the apes but now i don't remember a use of the music in the sense i'm saying...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

regressivetransphobe said:


> You could say that if all your life you were conditioned to associate atonality with love and tenderness, that would be as natural of an association as Romantic mushiness--but how does one support that argument? I guess you could have a kid and experiment. Overdub his Aladdin and Titanic DVDs with some Schoenberg.


that's an interesting point and it would be an interesting experiment too (alladin with schoenberg :lol, but i'm not convinced that it's just a matter of habitude.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Truckload said:


> I am fascinated by your "linkage" concept. I would like to know more about that.
> 
> I agree that there has been a steady loosening of tonality in jazz, which has led to a steady decline in the popularity of the genre. At one time jazz was the most popular music in America, and was making inroads around the world. Of course those days are long gone now.


OK; had breakfast, working on my coffee.

My use of 'linkage' is just another word for a musicological term, I'm sure. I don't know that terminology, so have to do the best I can without the jargon. Many short works, or suites of short works, don't use the sort of linkage I'm referring to - because they are the equivalent of paragraphs; their elements are inter-related. Longer works in the 'tonal realm' are held together by back-references, and/or by standardized procedures. Much non-tonal music is composed by people who reject those procedures. I think they must have some rules they follow, even if the intent (as expressed by Schnabel for instance) is 'free music'. If the listener focuses on notes and phrases, the music will likely make no 'sense'; if one lets the music flow by, listening but not grabbing at it (that's what I mean by 'listening to the long line), one may became aware of something happening. There may be 'reference points' within the flow. Using Schnabel as the example again, the 'reference' may be a few bars that are almost tonal, and follow an almost familiar pattern. One may, unconsciously working from those reference points (yes, _linkages_), get some ill-defined notions about things going on in the music as a whole.

Not every non-tonal composer uses that sort of linkage, and some composers, e.g. the mature Henze, don't need occasional linkages because the music is accessible in the long line anyway. Others, e.g. Boulez, just don't provide a linkage I can find. Probably my approach to non-tonal music only works for a subset of composers. It has expanded my music supply considerably though.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

norman bates said:


> i don't know if it's an atonal work....


The single most revealing (and the single most useful) remark on this or any thread about "atonal" music.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

some guy said:


> The single most revealing (and the single most useful) remark on this or any thread about "atonal" music.


Oh my god, that's so clever!


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

some guy said:


> The single most revealing (and the single most useful) remark on this or any thread about "atonal" music.


oh come on. So free atonality is not really atonality. So what? I think it is clear for anybody what i mean. Or at least for those with a little good sense.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

I have another clever idea. Let's stick to the topic. Let's confine ourselves to talking about the ideas, leaving the ad hominems and the straw men to the side.

Surely we can do that, hein?

(norman, the only person to say (or even imply) that "free atonality" is not really atonality, was you. But you suggest that it was me who said that. Play fair or don't play. Besides, in a descriptive sense, only "free" atonality is really atonality. That is, so far as "atonal" _can_ be descriptive. It's not very; and that's why it's so useful for large-scale and unsupportable bashing.)


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

some guy said:


> I have another clever idea. Let's stick to the topic. Let's confine ourselves to talking about the ideas, leaving the ad hominems and the straw men to the side.
> 
> Surely we can do that, hein?
> 
> (norman, the only person to say (or even imply) that "free atonality" is not really atonality, was you. But you suggest that it was me who said that. Play fair or don't play. Besides, in a descriptive sense, only "free" atonality is really atonality. That is, so far as "atonal" _can_ be descriptive. It's not very; and that's why it's so useful for large-scale and unsupportable bashing.)


Can you, I wonder? For you haven't yet suggested any piece that answer's the OP's question, other than suggest it's a useless question to begin with?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Two other composers who wrote extensively for film, as well as purely concert hall music, were William Alwyn and William Walton. Both incorporated serialism into their concert works, but loosely, not strictly, they were not "total" serialists. As for free atonality, they used it a lot.

I'm not sure how "atonal" or kind of less tonal are their film musics. Maybe they are more commercialised or populist to a degree compared to their "serious" concert works. Having said that, they have never failed to engage me, in either genre. One of my favourite works of all time would be the complete score to Walton's _*Henry V*_, as realised by the late Christopher Palmer. The recording on Chandos with Maestro Marriner at the helm always finds it's way into my cd player. Again, there are probably bits of near-atonality or vague tonality in that. You be the judge. Here are two famous bits from that score. Touch her soft lips and part and The death of Falstaff. They are now solidly part of concert string orchestra repertoire. I think they sound kind of vague tonal, in the realm of say some Mahler, Zemlinsky, Berg, that kind of thing, but less heavy (the Falstaff piece is a passacaglia, an old form)...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

norman bates said:


> i don't remember that scene but i want to watch it again, thank you.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't have opportunity to watch/listen to them now, but here are two videos on youtube of the love scene from North by Northwest. I have Herrmann's score on cd, I definitely know the music to this scene is reminiscent of Mahler and maybe more "romantic" atonalists like Berg. Anyway, here they are, hope they are of some use here? -

Kiss scene from North by Northwest

Score of North by Northwest...


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Sid James said:


> Well, I don't have opportunity to watch/listen to them now, but here are two videos on youtube of the love scene from North by Northwest. I have Herrmann's score on cd, I definitely know the music to this scene is reminiscent of Mahler and maybe more "romantic" atonalists like Berg. Anyway, here they are, hope they are of some use here? -
> 
> Kiss scene from North by Northwest


Score of North by Northwest...[/QUOTE]

i don't know Sid, this one seems perfectly tonal to me.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Well Norman, get this:

The film industry folk who choose atonal or 'expressionist' music to go with particular scenes -- this, btw includes old 'modern' music, example below -- are BANKING ON THE LISTENER'S COMPLETE LACK OF FAMILIARITY with those genres.

The unfamiliar, with the scene, causes un-ease, because it is not familiar. SIMPLES!

The unfamiliar, in the theater, in the dark, associated with image and dramatic context, promotes DISORIENTATION - making you that much more off-guard and ready to be 'surprised.'

For those of us familiar with the genres, such music under those scenes is cliche, hackneyed, and utterly ineffective.

I recall a film about a boy who is separated from his parents and goes 'perilously' walkabout in the Australian outback. There must have been barely a penny left for a soundtrack: all the music used to create tension, anxious expectation, or wanting you to feel the lad was in a scary situation was common rep, at one moment the underscoring was Mussorgsky's Night on Bald Mountain! Every time, under each scene where they wanted to 'disorient' you, there was music as commonplace to me that it may as well have been on a casual adult 101a music appreciation course repertoire list.

It caused in me the opposite of desired effect: the only surprise being it was That Music In That Place, and the 'emotion' each of those sadly placed bits of music evoked from me was LAUGHTER.

In another instance, The Piano, everyone talks about the heroine's piano music, there is more than one mention that to others around her, this music was 'disturbing.' Then we get Mr. Nyman's 'unsettling' sappy arrangement of something like a Scottish Folk tune, or a tune he composed like a Scottish folk tune. Nothing could have been more wildly inappropriate or out-of-sync with the author's intent, and I had to willfully ignore that score to make it through an otherwise fine film.

So your thesis is still based entirely upon your personal context of how Your Perceive Contemporary, Modern, or 'Atonal' music as per your emotional reactions toward it.

That 'not atonal' modern piece used in a scary movie I mentioned? Kubrick's The Shining uses the first movement of Bartok's Music for Stringed Instruments, Percussion and Celesta -- a work I was long familiar with which to me is just lyric and gorgeous. There again, I had to override the supposed desired association of the director's choice of that music in that film context.

Basically, then, your premise holds no water at all - it is a sieve reflecting your personal limits, and nothing more.


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