# Mozart: 40th vs 41st



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Pick one or the other, I must go with the 41st. It's his best symphony, and most Earth shattering imo.

:tiphat:


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2018)

41st out of those two, particularly for the second movement.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

#40 in g-minor is Mozart's most distinctive and unified symphony. #41, the "Jupiter," wouldn't have the reputation it does without it's stunning finale.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

shirime said:


> 41st out of those two, particularly for the second movement.


Arguably his two best at that.


----------



## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I prefer 40. But that's just me.


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2018)

Woodduck said:


> #40 in g-minor is Mozart's most distinctive and unified symphony. #41, the "Jupiter," wouldn't have the reputation it does without it's stunning finale.


Couldn't disagree more with your comments about the 41st.


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'll take the first movement of #38, the "Prague," over either of them. Maybe graft the finale of #41 onto #38 (changing the key to D, of course). Movements in Classical period symphonies are generally more or less interchangeable anyway, but definitely not in the g-minor, which is why I think it's Mozart's best overall.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> I'll take the first movement of #38, the "Prague," over either of them. Maybe graft the finale of #41 onto #38 (changing the key to D, of course)...


You'd still need to add a scherzo or menuet to make things really complete. Which one would you use?


----------



## Brahmsianhorn (Feb 17, 2017)

I almost hate to admit that I like #40 by leaps and bounds over #41. Don't know what I am missing, but #41 has never grabbed me.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Manxfeeder said:


> I prefer 40. But that's just me.


Good to know what you like!  The 40th is quite fine.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

In all honesty, both do it for me. But if I were forced to pick between hearing the 41st and 40th as my last piece to hear before I die, it'd probably be the 41st b/c it's more intense.


----------



## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

In the past I've placed the 41st over the 40th rather than passing. They are two of my favorite symphonies, and at this point I wouldn't want to vote on them. I will agree with Woodduck that the 41st's finale is stunning and almost inexplicable. I believe Schumann said, "There are things in the world about which nothing can be said, as Mozart's C Major Symphony, much of Shakespeare, and pages of Beethoven." Well. I personally don't feel there's anything in the world about which one can't say something meaningful, but I understand his marveling at Mozart's symphony.


----------



## Guest (Dec 19, 2018)

41st, please. It may have been the fault of Waldo De Los Rios but the 1st Mvmt of the 40th now sounds so plodding...


----------



## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

KenOC said:


> You'd still need to add a scherzo or menuet to make things really complete. Which one would you use?


It wouldn't need one. Minuets are generally a bore. Beethoven had the right idea.


----------



## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Well it's just a quirk of personality, but I've always found the first movement of the 40th whiney, and it's hard to get past it. 

(And by the way, Woodduck, I've always found at least Haydn's minuets to be about the most enjoyable of his movements as a class.)


----------



## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

I like the first movement of #40 better, and the 2nd and last movements of #41 better, even if the last movement isn't as impressive as it seems  


Between the minuets, I find the one in #41 less boring.

I find #39 easier to listen to than both.


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I also prefer the 40th, but I'm looking for harmonic daring, out-of-the-box thinking. I do like minuets, because they are in triple time, which is a nice break from the three other duple movements.


----------



## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Quite frankly, the 40th is a minor work, while the 41st is a major one. 

Which says nothing about my opinion of either.


----------



## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

SONNET CLV said:


> Quite frankly, the 40th is a *minor* work, while the 41st is a *major* one.


Completely right, the former in G (minor) and the latter in C (major).


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

I take 41, just. I dont, as many do, think 41 is a sy whose fame rests on one great finale. I think its sister mvt - the 1st - is virtually as impressive - it has the same furious energy at any rate and a short but thrilling coda. 

as for the 1st mvt of the g minor being whiney - I know what passages you mean - but they come and go - by and large it is not a whiney movement at all.


----------



## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Not a big fan of either, but if I had to pick one, it would be the 40th.


----------



## meitei (Dec 18, 2018)

Difficult to choose. But I will say the 40th.


----------



## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

If I have to choose one it is No.40, but I am with Woodduck in preferring No.38


----------



## ldiat (Jan 27, 2016)

we're number 41 we're number 41<-------its a cheer


----------



## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I listened the Szell CD last week and I was enjoying no. 40. But I don't know either one intimately.


----------



## pjang23 (Oct 8, 2009)

stomanek said:


> I take 41, just. I dont, as many do, think 41 is a sy whose fame rests on one great finale. I think its sister mvt - the 1st - is virtually as impressive - it has the same furious energy at any rate and a short but thrilling coda.


Ditto on this. I prefer the 41st by a mile, and am surprised how little the strong first movement gets mentioned.


----------



## poconoron (Oct 26, 2011)

I'll take the 40th by a whisker over 41. I agree with comments preceding that it feels more unified as a whole.


----------



## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

Oof... well, really tough but.

First Movement: 41
Second movement: 40
Third movement: 40
fourth movement: 41.

But last movement of 41 makes it really hard to choose, because I think it is definitely the best movement of both. 41 would barely edge it out.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

38 beats both, as far as I'm concerned.

Of these two, narrowly No.40


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

Tchaikov6 said:


> Oof... well, really tough but.
> 
> First Movement: 41
> Second movement: 40
> ...


I typically think of the first movements, which isn't very fair.


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

----------------


----------



## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

41 starts with a bit of an earape, I prefer 40.


----------



## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Equal, simple as that .


----------



## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

It's very difficult for me to choose between the two. Today I think that I'll go with No. 40 because of nostalgia (it was one of the first symphonies ever that I've listened to). 

My all-time favorite Mozart symphony is No. 38 though.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

hammeredklavier said:


> First Movement: 38
> Second movement: 39
> Third movement: 40
> fourth movement: 41
> ...


Extremely odd pairing.

Didnt work for me. The triumphant coda just does not gel with the futile horrific slaughter of WW1.


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Lucky we don't have to choose. 40 is amazing and (like quite a few of its immediate predecessors) burst onto an unsuspecting world that had surely heard nothing like it. But 41 is mighty and extended considerably what could be done with the symphony. So, I suppose 41 is the greatest but there is invention in 40 that still shocks. 

Shortly before he died Harnoncourt advanced a theory that Mozart's last three symphonies were part of a single whole and he issued a recording to demonstrate it. That view might solve the dilemma of having to choose between 40 and 41?


----------



## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Reading opinions like "I don't really like that work so much" about one or other of Mozart's last six symphonies (or even this or that movement) reminds me of the apparent opinions that Boulez is being roundly criticised for in another recent thread - although his are not so much about Mozart. Such views are inevitably very personal even though those who express them may believe them to be a result of profound insight. With Boulez they seemed quite fluid - at another time he appeared to have very different views - and I wonder if the same is true of the opinions expressed here?


----------



## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Number 40 it almost is classical music for me. It is very close to me.


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

I find the 41st to be his most emotional/romantic symphony.


----------



## DBLee (Jan 8, 2018)

Just a week or so ago, there was a thread asking for our favorite 5 symphonies (by any composer). I included Mozart's 41st, but not his 40th.

But just yesterday, I happened to listen to Mozart's 40th and renewed my appreciation for it. So today I will go with the 40th.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I choose 40 but prefer 25 and 38 to both.


----------



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

40th symphony every day.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> I find the 41st to be his most emotional/romantic symphony.


uh? ...................................


----------



## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

Both are SUPER! I can't say which is better. Honestly...


----------



## Captainnumber36 (Jan 19, 2017)

stomanek said:


> uh? ...................................


Yes, that is the opinion I hold. You may kindly disagree, or show me one you find more emotional.


----------



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Captainnumber36 said:


> Yes, that is the opinion I hold. You may kindly disagree, or show me one you find more emotional.


I just find it a bot odd as people tend to say that the g minor preempts the stormy emotions of the romantic era while many people feel the c major is the ultimate classical symphony par excellence.


----------

