# Book I'm reading about a psychoanalytical study of Beethoven...



## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

So far in this psychoanalysis of Beethoven I have read that he had an '*unconscious homosexual*' desire for his brother Carl. I don't really get that as interesting as it sounds. Beethoven was just very indulgent, very emotional and possessive. When Carl became serious with a woman, Beethoven felt he had lost Carl and been displaced by this woman. But wouldn't anyone feel that way especially if they are naturally very possessive? Carl's relationship with Johanna meant he was less close with Beethoven, and B. was unhappy about that. But can't all relationships be like this? When a friend suddenly gets serious with someone, then you see less of them and probably don't have such intimate conversations anymore; or in families, when the children grow up and have relationships, the parents may secretly feel they have lost their child. It is always hard when you are very close to someone and they find someone they are even closer to, but that's just life. I don't see how it's a latent homosexual desire?

Secondly the Sterba authors want to put forward this idea that *Beethoven is taking on the unnatural role of 'mother' rather than being a father *to his nephew, when his brother dies. Their evidence for this lies in various places, one of them being that he wrote the following in a letter:

'...in this connection I could have brought the second part of The Magic Flute into this world...'

This sentence fragment was in regard to taking possession of his nephew. Here they claim he reveals a 'motherly' affection as only mothers 'bring into the world.' I really find that to be their weakest argument; a creative person male of female, maternal, paternal or not, will invariably talk about their creative experiences in terms of a birth and a 'bring[ing] into the world.' I just don't see why an over-indulgent, very emotional, possessive man has to be seen by these writers as being a 'mother.' A father can be all those things too.

Or do you think there is any truth to this? Let me know.

I have also read online that people thought Beethoven was gay, in part due to accounts like this:

'On the other hand, Beethoven had many close friendships with men of his own age and he enjoyed the company of younger men, such as Ferdinand Ries early in his career and Karl Holz at the end, as well as Stephan von Breuning, Wegeler, Gleichenstein, the attractive young pianist Karl Friedrich Amenda, the handsome Baron de Trémont and others. Karl Maria von Weber, also a good-looking young man, reported:
He received me with an affection which was touching; he embraced me most heartily at least six or seven times and finally exclaimed enthusiastically: "Indeed, you're a devil of a fellow! &emdash; a good fellow!" We spent the afernoon very merrily and contentedly. *This rough, repellent man actually paid court to me, served me at table as if I had been his lady.'*

From:
http://www.martinschlu.de/kulturgeschichte/klassik/beethoven/beethovenkarl.htm


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Very interesting post! Until recently Beethoven was no more than a name to me, as his music is waaay over my head, so it had never occurred to me to wonder what sort of man he was until I saw an argument on this forum about whether he was a terrible human being or just a bit flawed. Recently I've been dipping into this book on psychobiography, which sounds like the genre your Beethoven book belongs to:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UkT2QRLVpKYC&printsec=frontcover&output=html_text

The author makes a good case for blending psychology and biography, but I'm not convinced. It sounds like it can lead to the sort of perverse diagnoses that you mention. Beethoven in love with his brother? :lol: As I say, I know nothing about the guy, but it would seem to be among the less obvious explanations of why he might have interfered in a love affair of Carl's. My own first relationship- just silly adolescent stuff really- was broken up by his parents who thought he shouldn't be in a relationship so young, and his female best friend who missed having him as chauffeur/ agony uncle. Now I could surmise, like Beethoven's biographers, that they were all desperate to get into this guy's pants, but I think the more obvious motivations- insecurity and selfishness- were at play here. No doubt we've all had similar experiences, which we can either interpret in the light of common sense, or ask a Freudian analyst if we want to hear something wacky and possibly incest-related.

Sorry to ramble- I'm in the quite early stages of research on a writing project myself, and the psychobiography book was part of my background reading into approaches to music biography. The Beethoven book sounds interesting: I wonder how far the incest stuff is sincerely meant and how much is just looking for a new angle, since Beethoven has obviously been 'done' many times before, just as the author of the book I mentioned specialises in finding new angles on much-studied personalities. Personally I would rather write about hitherto neglected biographical subjects- there are so many of them!- than think up weird stuff to try and sell the 20th Beethoven bio. I hope someone who knows about Beethoven can be more helpful than I can!


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The Sterba book is well-known but is usually dismissed as speculation at best and psychobabble at worst. I don't know of any Beeethoven biographer who gives it any credit, although Solomon does a bit of his own babbling. I haven't read the book, but most historical "analyses" like that seem quite useless.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

It sounds like the authors has an agenda, to be honest. Taking phrases like the one regarding the Magic Flute, then using only one prejudicial interpretation of it, shows an extraordinary bias. It could very simply be taken to be what it is, one creative guy saying...the obvious. I find books like this to be irritating. They twist stuff to make stuff up. Boo. Bah. Hiss. 

Not that it would make any difference of Luigi was gay, straight, or partial to elephants. But why does it matter so much to the author of this book? Head-scratching...


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## Musicforawhile (Oct 10, 2014)

Kieran;bt3147 said:


> But why does it matter so much to the author of this book? Head-scratching...


Because the purpose of the book is to provide a psychoanalysis of Beethoven's relationship with his nephew - the title is 'Beethoven and his nephew; A Psychoanalytic Study of their Relationship.' It's by Edith and Richard Sterba.


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

Musicforawhile;bt3149 said:


> Because the purpose of the book is to provide a psychoanalysis of Beethoven's relationship with his nephew - the title is 'Beethoven and his nephew; A Psychoanalytic Study of their Relationship.' It's by Edith and Richard Sterba.


I get that part of it, but I think there's way too much speculation, if the clips you've given us are representative of what they're doing. I find that kind of thing to be both self-serving and gossipy. And at the same time, I can see why it's interesting too. But is the book informing you of anything?

:tiphat:


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