# UFOs: Threat or Menace?



## KenOC

For the first time, the Navy has said that the UFO's observed in recent encounters are likely real. Navy spokesman Josepth Gradisher says that "the 'Unidentified Aerial Phenomena' terminology is used because it provides the basic descriptor for the sightings/observations of unauthorized/unidentified aircraft/objects that have been observed entering/operating in the airspace of various military-controlled training ranges." This relates specifically to three encounters, the first in 2004 and the other two in 2015.

Luis Elizondo, the former head of the Pentagon's Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), speaks of the well-known November 14, 2004 encounter off the San Diego coast: "What the pilots encountered that day was able to perform in ways that defied all logic and our current understanding of aerodynamics. Furthermore, beyond what the pilots saw with their own trained eye, the technological feat they encountered was further verified by the impressive Aegis SPY-1 radar, America's premier radar system at the time, and even gun camera footage and sonar systems from submarines accompanying the carrier." This encounter, part of the multi-day *Nimitz incident*, is covered in Wiki.

I'm curious if anybody here has any ideas about this, about UFOs generally, has seen a UFO, or even (gasp) been abducted! Anyway, a happy Klaatu Barada Nikto to all!


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## Guest

I guess the answer to the thread question really comes down to where you come down on **** probes.


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## Bwv 1080

UFOs are definitely real - people have seen things in the sky they cant identify. But there it is a huge unsubstantiated leap from that to claiming that alien spacecraft have visited earth. 

Of course its completely logical that if an advanced species traveled light years to reach earth, their primary interest upon arrival would be human anuses


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## Jacck

there are good and evil aliens. The evil ones are for example the reptilians, the grays and the annunaki, and the good ones are for example the Pleiadans and the Ashtar Sheran fleet of light. The reptilians have a base on the dark side of the moon and can shapeshift. The grays are responsible for the abductions, cattle mutilians and chemtrails. The crop circles are created by the Pleiadans to effect the human subconsiousness and thus raise the vibration of Earth to a higher level of astral being. The governments know about it, but keep it secret in Area 51 and other places.


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## Strange Magic

Besides probing anuses, there are always those who--we read--also closely examine and probe one's genitalia. Those abducted into alien spacecraft almost always report being thus probed.....


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## Ingélou

I once in the twilight saw a light moving across the sky above our local harbour. I had good eyesight then, and could just make out the silhouette of a helicopter surrounding the light. I said to a man walking nearby, 'Now that is the sort of thing that will get people reporting UFOs'. He said, 'Isn't it? I think it might be.'

So I didn't see a UFO - I just saw how easily people could believe that they'd seen one. 

That said, the OP with its talk of cameras, radar and trained observers is a little disquieting...


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## Jacck

Five Traits That Could Get You "Abducted by Aliens"
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...207/five-traits-could-get-you-abducted-aliens


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## Room2201974

This thread gets the Major Donald Keyhoe seal of approval. Next up: Skunk Apes - who has seen one?


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## Bwv 1080

If intelligent life was anywhere near us and interstellar travel was feasible, we would have seen them by now. So one or both of these is not correct. There has been plenty of time for pan-galactic empires to rise within our galaxy even without some form of FTL travel. My guess is that interstellar travel is just an insurmountable problem


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## Merl

I was abducted by aliens but they let me go after I repeatedly played the symphonies of Peter Maxwell-Davies. They couldnt wait to get me off their spaceship. I couldn't wait to turn the music off, too. :lol:


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## Jacck

Bwv 1080 said:


> If intelligent life was anywhere near us and interstellar travel was feasible, we would have seen them by now. So one or both of these is not correct. There has been plenty of time for pan-galactic empires to rise within our galaxy even without some form of FTL travel. My guess is that interstellar travel is just an insurmountable problem


it might be surmountable using robots, ie sending automated robotic ships that would be transporting just the DNA code and that would create the colonists from the DNA once on a suitable planet.


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## Guest

If you are up in the atmosphere light and other radiation is refracted, reflected. Stratification of the atmosphere can allow an object to become invisible because light is guided by the layer in which it resides, like light in an optical fibre. An object can seem to disappear just because it moved into a different layer of the atmosphere which doesn't allow light to reach the observer.

When you hear government officials or scientists say that a UFO was an optical illusion or a radar anomaly, that's not equivocation. That's reality.


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## Room2201974

Jacck said:


> it might be surmountable using robots, ie sending automated robotic ships that would be transporting just the DNA code and that would create the colonists from the DNA once on a suitable planet.


Muffley: Well, I, I would hate to have to decide...which DNA stays and...which DNA goes.

Dr. Strangelove: Well, that would not be necessary, Mr. President. It could easily be accomplished with a computer. And a computer could be set and programmed to accept factors from youth, health, sexual fertility, intelligence, and a cross-section of necessary skills. Of course, it would be absolutely vital that the DNA our top government and military men be included to foster and impart the required principles of leadership and tradition. Naturally, they would breed prodigiously, eh? There would be much time, and little to do. Ha, ha. But ah, with the proper breeding techniques and a ratio of say, ten females to each male, I would guess that they could then work their way back to the present Gross National Product within say, twenty years. Mein Führer, Mein Führer ....I can walk.


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## Bwv 1080

Jacck said:


> it might be surmountable using robots, ie sending automated robotic ships that would be transporting just the DNA code and that would create the colonists from the DNA once on a suitable planet.


If it was, where are the all the alien robotic ships? Plenty of time for the galaxy to have been overrun by now


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## Guest

Bwv 1080 said:


> If it was, where are the all the alien robotic ships? Plenty of time for the galaxy to have been overrun by now


Yes, the Fermi paradox, "where are they?"

We'd better get working on our robotic ships. We are entering a mass extinction, possible the biggest one of all. It may get us too. We may only have a few hundred years before all that's left of us is fossils. :lol:


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## tdc

I suspect UFO's have been visiting here for ages, they can't interfere too much with us because that is part of 'the rules'. (Ie - the prime directive type thing) until humans are ready for that step. More truth about how reality actually works is leaked out under the guise of fiction in movies and TV than is given to us in the mainstream news. This also relates to 'the rules'. Humans haven't yet embraced truth and morality so we are still susceptible to being deceived and manipulated by our government. It is a reflection of where we are in our own evolution (retarded). There is certainly evidence of the U.S. military knowing about UFOs as far back as at least the '50's. They have likely reverse engineered some of the craft. This technology is kept hush hush as it would make oil obsolete, and could likely solve a lot of our problems, but the a s s hats in charge are paranoid inept douche bags who are mostly concerned about their own power and weaponizing this technology. 

I suspect the reason that all of a sudden the 'powers that be' want people to know about UFOs is because they are planning some kind of false flag attack (project blue beam) so they can stage a fake alien attack and take away more of our rights and freedoms. If this sounds crazy to you and you believe your local news and mainstream media it means you are under mind control. I'm being completely serious in this post by the way. There are also likely paid disinformants on websites like this who will consistently attack views like this to make the person seem crazy. That is how they've programmed people to perceive others who believe in things like UFOs for decades. They only change their agenda when it suits their own purposes.


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## Bwv 1080

tdc said:


> There are also likely paid disinformants on websites like this who will consistently attack views like this to make the person seem crazy.


I tell ya, the budget for this ain't what it used to be -between that and my checks from big pharma for supporting vaccines, I can barely afford to pay my yacht crew


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## Bulldog

If aliens were to come our way and become aware of our love for screwing each other over, I think they would exterminate all of us.


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## Guest

Bulldog said:


> If aliens were to come our way and become aware of our love for screwing each other over, I think they would exterminate all of us.


No need, we're working on that ourselves.


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## Guest

Bwv 1080 said:


> I tell ya, the budget for this ain't what it used to be -between that and my checks from big pharma for supporting vaccines, I can barely afford to pay my yacht crew


I have a sinking feeling he might be serious.


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## KenOC

tdc said:


> ...There are also likely paid disinformants on websites like this who will consistently attack views like this to make the person seem crazy. That is how they've programmed people to perceive others who believe in things like UFOs for decades.


Not to worry. I'm sure you are just as sane as I am. And BTW, the saucer people assure me that all their disinformants are volunteers, driven only by love for the Great Zog, He Whose Burp is Thunder Among the Stars.


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## Room2201974

Baron Scarpia said:


> No need, we're working on that ourselves.


According to posters in other threads here, some have claimed a "justification" for untermensch. That's all you need.......


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## Manxfeeder

KenOC said:


> Anyway, a happy Klaatu Barada Nikto to all!


When I saw that movie, I thought I'd better remember that line. You never know.


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## amfortas

tdc said:


> I suspect UFO's have been visiting here for ages, they can't interfere too much with us because that is part of 'the rules'. (Ie - the prime directive type thing) until humans are ready for that step. More truth about how reality actually works is leaked out under the guise of fiction in movies and TV than is given to us in the mainstream news. This also relates to 'the rules'. Humans haven't yet embraced truth and morality so we are still susceptible to being deceived and manipulated by our government. It is a reflection of where we are in our own evolution (retarded). There is certainly evidence of the U.S. military knowing about UFOs as far back as at least the '50's. They have likely reverse engineered some of the craft. This technology is kept hush hush as it would make oil obsolete, and could likely solve a lot of our problems, but *the a s s hats in charge are paranoid inept douche bags* who are mostly concerned about their own power and weaponizing this technology.
> 
> I suspect the reason that all of a sudden the 'powers that be' want people to know about UFOs is because they are planning some kind of false flag attack (project blue beam) so they can stage a fake alien attack and take away more of our rights and freedoms. If this sounds crazy to you and you believe your local news and mainstream media it means you are under mind control. I'm being completely serious in this post by the way. There are also likely paid disinformants on websites like this who will consistently attack views like this to make the person seem crazy. That is how they've programmed people to perceive others who believe in things like UFOs for decades. They only change their agenda when it suits their own purposes.


Keep watching out for those paranoid people. They're all around you.


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## Room2201974

tdc said:


> I suspect UFO's have been visiting here for ages, they can't interfere too much with us because that is part of 'the rules'. (Ie - the prime directive type thing) until humans are ready for that step. More truth about how reality actually works is leaked out under the guise of fiction in movies and TV than is given to us in the mainstream news. This also relates to 'the rules'. Humans haven't yet embraced truth and morality so we are still susceptible to being deceived and manipulated by our government. It is a reflection of where we are in our own evolution (retarded). There is certainly evidence of the U.S. military knowing about UFOs as far back as at least the '50's. They have likely reverse engineered some of the craft. This technology is kept hush hush as it would make oil obsolete, and could likely solve a lot of our problems, but the a s s hats in charge are paranoid inept douche bags who are mostly concerned about their own power and weaponizing this technology.
> 
> I suspect the reason that all of a sudden the 'powers that be' want people to know about UFOs is because they are planning some kind of false flag attack (project blue beam) so they can stage a fake alien attack and take away more of our rights and freedoms. If this sounds crazy to you and you believe your local news and mainstream media it means you are under mind control. I'm being completely serious in this post by the way. There are also likely paid disinformants on websites like this who will consistently attack views like this to make the person seem crazy. That is how they've programmed people to perceive others who believe in things like UFOs for decades. They only change their agenda when it suits their own purposes.


 "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."


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## david johnson

It will not matter if they are a menace. All the movies say humanity, regardless of technical inferiority or being surprise-attacked, will quickly be victorious in a tragic and bloody interstellar war. Rest easy, friends


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## Art Rock

david johnson said:


> It will not matter if they are a menace. All the movies say humanity, regardless of technical inferiority or being surprise-attacked, will quickly be victorious in a tragic and bloody interstellar war. Rest easy, friends


Plus, it is always the USA that gets attacked. We're save in Europe.


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## joen_cph

I think the abduction thing is especially popular in the US. 
Oh yes, and among Kalmykia presidents https://www.huffpost.com/entry/alie...znSIHjAoASQLdRKBy-fso6QltlojaQ7q48y-NCLXEAIDv
There's no trustful public for it in my country at least.

But concerning the OP story/evidence, the Wiki article shows some scepticism. For example, that the fast movement at the end is due to movement in the camera, not the object. But should it be a real encounter with a real machine, it's also fascinating if someone on Earth has developed such vehicles and managed to keep them secret.


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## Jacck

Bwv 1080 said:


> If it was, where are the all the alien robotic ships? Plenty of time for the galaxy to have been overrun by now


there was one here in 2017, the Oumuamua 
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-ha...-object-oumuamua-could-be-an-alien-solar-sail


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## Strange Magic

Jacck said:


> there was one here in 2017, the Oumuamua
> https://www.sciencealert.com/new-ha...-object-oumuamua-could-be-an-alien-solar-sail


Discussion of 'Oumuamua down in the Science Group; also of a new interstellar visitor, a comet quite probably from a far distant source than those previously encountered originating within our own solar system.

https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/talk-science-d1660-oumuamua-a-visitor-from.html


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## Jacck

Strange Magic said:


> Discussion of 'Oumuamua down in the Science Group; also of a new interstellar visitor, a comet quite probably from a far distant source than those previously encountered originating within our own solar system.
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/talk-science-d1660-oumuamua-a-visitor-from.html


*
Unlike the small, faint 'Oumuamua, the new object seems to be very large - around 20km wide - and bright.*

it looks like the Oumuamua was the reconnaissance probe, and now the mothership with the colonists is coming


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## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


> If intelligent life was anywhere near us and interstellar travel was feasible, we would have seen them by now. So one or both of these is not correct. There has been plenty of time for pan-galactic empires to rise within our galaxy even without some form of FTL travel. My guess is that interstellar travel is just an insurmountable problem


Or there's one Earth-like planet with long term stable conditions in 10 average-sized galaxies in our supercluster (or fewer). They're very far away.


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## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> *
> Unlike the small, faint 'Oumuamua, the new object seems to be very large - around 20km wide - and bright.*
> 
> it looks like the Oumuamua was the reconnaissance probe, and now the mothership with the colonists is coming


They're moving very fast and they don't slow down.


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## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> Or there's one Earth-like planet with long term stable conditions in 10 average-sized galaxies in our supercluster (or fewer). They're very far away.


I think the number of possible life habitats - including moons - is very debated. We're just on the threshold to investigate those matters.

But here's an interesting, very different take on many famous UFO sightings:
"*The real Men in Black, Hollywood and the great UFO cover-up*":

(the bonus was):... _alerting the military when anyone was getting to close to their top-secret technology. And if the Soviets thought the US really was communing with aliens, all the better. (...) 
_


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## Luchesi

tdc said:


> I suspect UFO's have been visiting here for ages, they can't interfere too much with us because that is part of 'the rules'. (Ie - the prime directive type thing) until humans are ready for that step. More truth about how reality actually works is leaked out under the guise of fiction in movies and TV than is given to us in the mainstream news. This also relates to 'the rules'. Humans haven't yet embraced truth and morality so we are still susceptible to being deceived and manipulated by our government. It is a reflection of where we are in our own evolution (retarded). There is certainly evidence of the U.S. military knowing about UFOs as far back as at least the '50's. They have likely reverse engineered some of the craft. This technology is kept hush hush as it would make oil obsolete, and could likely solve a lot of our problems, but the a s s hats in charge are paranoid inept douche bags who are mostly concerned about their own power and weaponizing this technology.
> 
> I suspect the reason that all of a sudden the 'powers that be' want people to know about UFOs is because they are planning some kind of false flag attack (project blue beam) so they can stage a fake alien attack and take away more of our rights and freedoms. If this sounds crazy to you and you believe your local news and mainstream media it means you are under mind control. I'm being completely serious in this post by the way. There are also likely paid disinformants on websites like this who will consistently attack views like this to make the person seem crazy. That is how they've programmed people to perceive others who believe in things like UFOs for decades. They only change their agenda when it suits their own purposes.


There is the idea that probes collected data on Homo habilis. The data was sent back to the armada. It took a long time. They are insect-like creatures and they did their best to project what we would look like - long into the future - today (by the time the armada got here). The Greys are cybernetic which are made to look like us from that projection.


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## Larkenfield

I do not consider the perfection of the crop circles as being of this earth, which suggests a higher intelligence than our own and advanced technologies: https://www.livescience.com/26540-crop-circles.html. I also consider the forces behind their formation as benevolent, though I believe there are also be malevolent forces too that are not of this earth.


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## Bwv 1080

Larkenfield said:


> I do not consider the perfection of the crop circles as being of this earth, which suggests a higher intelligence than our own and advanced technologies: https://www.livescience.com/26540-crop-circles.html. I also consider the forces behind their formation as benevolent, though I believe there are also be malevolent forces too that are not of this earth.


 Crop circles are entirely human creations


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## Bwv 1080

Luchesi said:


> There is the idea that probes collected data on Homo habilis. The data was sent back to the armada. It took a long time. They are insect-like creatures and they did their best to project what we would look like - long into the future - today (by the time the armada got here). The Greys are cybernetic which are made to look like us from that projection.


Always found it fascinating that people have managed to create an entire pantheon and mythology within a relatively short time frame. Can see how other mass delusions in the past, like witch-scares, developed


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## Strange Magic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Crop circles are entirely human creations


Amen. Their initial creator and catalyst has been known for a while now:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/crop-circles-the-art-of-the-hoax-2524283/


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## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> I do not consider the perfection of the crop circles as being of this earth, which suggests a higher intelligence than our own and advanced technologies: https://www.livescience.com/26540-crop-circles.html. I also consider the forces behind their formation as benevolent, though I believe there are also be malevolent forces too that are not of this earth.


Making a circle implies a higher intelligence than our own? Speak for yourself. :lol:


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## KenOC

Aliens, probably illegal, are now in cahoots with the Russians to influence our elections.


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## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


> Always found it fascinating that people have managed to create an entire pantheon and mythology within a relatively short time frame. Can see how other mass delusions in the past, like witch-scares, developed


I don't see anything unscientific in it, it just strikes us as very improbable. Anyway, some aspects of that will probably come true someday, in some galaxy. But after reading the book Rare Earth I don't think our jewel of a planet will be duplicated except in very small numbers in each huge galaxy, separated by gulfs of millions of years, of distance and time.


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## Jacck

KenOC said:


> Aliens, probably illegal, are now in cahoots with the Russians to influence our elections.


no, Aliens are just scapegoats. It is the Russian mafia that bailed-out the Don after he went bankrupt. His appartements in New York then started to serve the purpose of money laundering for mob money siphoned out of Russia (Putin controls the Russian mob, since in Russia the FSB, mob, business and politics are one entity). Don's father was also working for the New York mafia. Trump is certainly not the good guy whom you consider him to be. He may well be the most corrupt and immoral president the US ever had since its inception. 
https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Destroy-Democracy-Undermining-Dismantling/dp/0316484830/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/
the real problem in the US is, that no matter how much evidence you show to his voters, they will not believe or will not care. And that is how democracy dies.


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## philoctetes

Wasn't it the summer of 1967 that everybody was seeing things? I recall reading about something in another state, then next week the mother of a schoolmate made the local news when she reported several saucers flying over the east side of town, and the frenzy kept going through the US... books like Incident at Exeter and Anatomy of a Phenomenon were best-sellers... anybody else remember that stuff?

Looking back, I can see how these events were sensationalized. Yet I'm a bit of a sucker for this stuff even though I've been scientifically educated. Paranormal (or paranoid?) phenomena just seems to lurk around me too much to ignore...


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## Johnnie Burgess

Jacck said:


> no, Aliens are just scapegoats. It is the Russian mafia that bailed-out the Don after he went bankrupt. His appartements in New York then started to serve the purpose of money laundering for mob money siphoned out of Russia (Putin controls the Russian mob, since in Russia the FSB, mob, business and politics are one entity). Don's father was also working for the New York mafia. Trump is certainly not the good guy whom you consider him to be. He may well be the most corrupt and immoral president the US ever had since its inception.
> https://www.amazon.com/Plot-Destroy-Democracy-Undermining-Dismantling/dp/0316484830/
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/
> the real problem in the US is, that no matter how much evidence you show to his voters, they will not believe or will not care. And that is how democracy dies.


And Joe Biden's son is getting millions of dollars from Putin and the Chinese leader is ok. Biden theatened to take billions from the Ukraine if they would not fire a prosecutor invesigating his son, sounds like obstruction of justice.


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## Guest

philoctetes said:


> Wasn't it the summer of 1967 that everybody was seeing things? I recall reading about something in another state, then next week the mother of a schoolmate made the local news when she reported several saucers flying over the east side of town, and the frenzy kept going through the US... books like Incident at Exeter and Anatomy of a Phenomenon were best-sellers... anybody else remember that stuff?
> 
> Looking back, I can see how these events were sensationalized. Yet I'm a bit of a sucker for this stuff even though I've been scientifically educated. Paranormal (or paranoid?) phenomena just seems to lurk around me too much to ignore...


Weren't the late 60s particularly known for experimentation with hallucinogenic drugs? Just saying.


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## philoctetes

DrMike said:


> Weren't the late 60s particularly known for experimentation with hallucinogenic drugs? Just saying.


So we could also "just say" that Navy pilots are doing a lot of it now...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/18/politics/navy-confirms-ufo-videos-trnd/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fedition_us+%28RSS%3A+CNNi+-+U.S.%29


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## DeepR

Everybody and their mother has mobile phones with HD camera these days.
Still waiting for that high quality footage of a UFO/alien vessel that is undeniably real / not a fake.
(This also goes for any visible paranormal phenomena...)


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## DeepR

If they are out there, they face the same laws of physics and the same tremendous challenges when it comes to observing and exploring the universe.

How could aliens even detect our presence when our fastest signals (visible light, radio waves) have only been around for a very, very short time on the cosmic time scale, assuming they are still detectable at very, very, VERY large distances (I don't think they are).

Let's say there are a bunch of aliens at 30 million light years away from us and let's assume they are very advanced and somehow able to observe earth in great detail. Even those aliens can only see the earth as it was 30 million years ago. Why would they make the enormous effort to travel all the way to earth? To observe the earth's plants and animals? Considering it takes them 30 million years to get here, IF they can travel at the speed of light... Yeah, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Only _incredibly_ advanced aliens, who are able to traverse the universe with very little effort, breaking the laws of physics as we know them, might show up someday at planet earth. 
They'd probably observe us, have a laugh, and move on without us ever knowing about it. 
And for now, it's safe to assume that the chances of such aliens existing are slim to none. 
Remain skeptical.


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## Jacck

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And Joe Biden's son is getting millions of dollars from Putin and the Chinese leader is ok. Biden theatened to take billions from the Ukraine if they would not fire a prosecutor invesigating his son, sounds like obstruction of justice.


no, it is not OK. I think it is a huge problem, that adversarial regimes can in fact buy politicians, and those politicians due to lack of moral integrity and patriotism can work against the interests of their own country to preserve their own riches. This does happen all over the west, money from Russia or China are being laundered in the West and used to buy influence/corrupt politicians, while those regimes at the same time wage hidden hybrid wars agains the West. Our own president is an alien. A distant relative of Jabba the Hutt. Also working for the Russians


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## Johnnie Burgess

Jacck said:


> no, it is not OK. I think it is a huge problem, that adversarial regimes can in fact buy politicians, and those politicians due to lack of moral integrity and patriotism can work against the interests of their own country to preserve their own riches. This does happen all over the west, money from Russia or China are being laundered in the West and used to buy influence/corrupt politicians, while those regimes at the same time wage hidden hybrid wars agains the West. Our own president is an alien. A distant relative of Jabba the Hutt. Also working for the Russians


The only person working for someone and telling Germany they are stupid to buy natural gas from Russia but to buy from the United States. How can he work for Putin and he wants to take money from him?


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## Jacck

Johnnie Burgess said:


> The only person working for someone and telling Germany they are stupid to buy oil from Russia but to buy from the United States. How can he work for Putin and he wants to take money from him?


I have no idea who you are talking about. If about the traitor Zeman, then he criticizes the USA for wanting to stop the Nordstream 2. You can use google translator to translate this, if you do not believe me
https://www.tyden.cz/rubriky/domaci/usa-se-nema-k-nord-stream-2-co-vyjadrovat-rekl-zeman_523243.html


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## philoctetes

DeepR said:


> Everybody and their mother has mobile phones with HD camera these days.
> Still waiting for that high quality footage of a UFO/alien vessel that is undeniably real / not a fake.
> (This also goes for any visible paranormal phenomena...)


Perfectly reasonable if we could just get the phenomena to cooperate stand still and and pose for a moment.

If something is not meant to be seen, we probably won't see it. This is true for perfectly normal terrestrial phenomena such as murders in a jail cell (for some reason cameras "malfunction" at the worst times)...









Sorry for the duplicate images... I can't seem to unattach the unwanted one...


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## Luchesi

DeepR said:


> If they are out there, they face the same laws of physics and the same tremendous challenges when it comes to observing and exploring the universe.
> 
> How could aliens even detect our presence when our fastest signals (visible light, radio waves) have only been around for a very, very short time on the cosmic time scale, assuming they are still detectable at very, very, VERY large distances (I don't think they are).
> 
> Let's say there are a bunch of aliens at 30 million light years away from us and let's assume they are very advanced and somehow able to observe earth in great detail. Even those aliens can only see the earth as it was 30 million years ago. Why would they make the enormous effort to travel all the way to earth? To observe the earth's plants and animals? Considering it takes them 30 million years to get here, IF they can travel at the speed of light... Yeah, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
> 
> Only _incredibly_ advanced aliens, who are able to traverse the universe with very little effort, breaking the laws of physics as we know them, might show up someday at planet earth.
> They'd probably observe us, have a laugh, and move on without us ever knowing about it.
> And for now, it's safe to assume that the chances of such aliens existing are slim to none.
> Remain skeptical.


I agree with all that.
That's an extreme example, 30 million lys. 
Only one hundred years ago people didn't suspect there were so many galaxies out there and that we live in only one of them (only since 50 years ago). Until three or four methods of determining distances were found to be reliable enough so that progress about answering this question could begin. Then rudimentary maps could be made and all the cross-checks could be made to improve our view of what's out there, nearby and very distant. Only in the last 30 years or less have we had interesting maps.

So fairly recently we're pretty sure that nothing is close enough to us for it to be cost-effective to visit us (unless they really really want this jewel of a planet, or it's their behavior to roam around and destroy any future competition. ...That might be a logical conclusion. That's what humans have always done, consciously or unconsciously).


----------



## philoctetes

A civilization advanced enough to terraform planets or build artificial ones might be much harder to detect than we are. Much of our mentality about detecting life has been to look for something like ourselves on a planet like ours, with motives like ours, etc.... 

"Only one hundred years ago people didn't suspect there were so many galaxies" - well, I remember when life on the moon and Mars was pretty much ruled out by anybody who didn't want to be laughed out of their lab job...

Something like the Oumuamua could have just flown by and dropped off who knows what... if the Navy sightings are real, then their ships could have the ability to jump and ride something like Oumuamua like a bull in a rodeo and populate it.

Could even be that Oumuamua might have been OUR chance to get the heck off this planet and we weren't ready...


----------



## philoctetes

Duplicate post deleted


----------



## Luchesi

philoctetes said:


> A civilization advanced enough to terraform planets or build artificial ones might be much harder to detect than we are. Much of our mentality about detecting life has been to look for something like ourselves on a planet like ours, with motives like ours, etc....
> 
> "Only one hundred years ago people didn't suspect there were so many galaxies" - well, I remember when life on the moon and Mars was pretty much ruled out by anybody who didn't want to be laughed out of their lab job...
> 
> Something like the Oumuamua could have just flown by and dropped off who knows what...


Yes, there are many stars close by that are millions of years older than our system and if they wanted to hide themselves they probably could. So in every direction we look there might be a super-civilization.

I never thought about Oumuamua (or this new, bigger one that's coming through, just outside the orbit of Mars) dropping off beings or sensors or dangerous things. I guess I'm not suspicious enough as a person, and I should be.


----------



## philoctetes

Luchesi said:


> Yes, there are many stars close by that are millions of years older than our system and if they wanted to hide themselves they probably could. So in every direction we look there might be a super-civilization.
> 
> I never thought about Oumuamua (or this new, bigger one that's coming through, just outside the orbit of Mars) dropping off beings or sensors or dangerous things. I guess I'm not suspicious enough as a person, and I should be.


If you wanted to leave a planet, go through space, and seed your race, and had nothing but space ships, fuel, and technology, and you knew Oumuamua was gonna pass through your hood someday, what would you do?

We just sat and watched, but that's not the only possible choice... and of course the odds of such a venture being successful... we would assume very low...


----------



## philoctetes

Just read that Oumuamua is smaller than I thought, however it's the kinetic energy it possesses that matters... while the next one has more comet-like features... but I wonder if for some reason there is an increase in traffic passing through the solar system... and if yet more is on the way... like giant dice tumbling across the galaxy... outcome TBD...


----------



## Luchesi

philoctetes said:


> Just read that Oumuamua is smaller than I thought, however it's the kinetic energy it possesses that matters... while the next one has more comet-like features... but I wonder if for some reason there is an increase in traffic passing through the solar system... and if yet more is on the way... like giant dice tumbling across the galaxy... outcome TBD...


I assume that there's been millions of these interlopers down through millions of years and we shouldn't expect that they're a new phenomenon.


----------



## Jacck

there is also the wow signal
https://www.theguardian.com/science...gnal-could-be-explained-after-almost-40-years


----------



## philoctetes

Luchesi said:


> I assume that there's been millions of these interlopers down through millions of years and we shouldn't expect that they're a new phenomenon.


We have a glut of data nowadays with all the high SNR instruments in operation... whether it's weather, earthquakes, the cosmos, or whatever... so it's good to be cautious about what we see and citing "trends" which could just be artifacts of calibration errors.... OTOH an assumption of uniformity of *cosmic debris* might have to be checked with the Grand Wazoo...


----------



## Jacck

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post...5/china-could-make-first-contact-aliens-would
China on the hunt for aliens, and they invited Liu Cixin too. I hope the aliens will be more friendly than those from Liu's books


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> there is also the wow signal
> https://www.theguardian.com/science...gnal-could-be-explained-after-almost-40-years


I guess the idea was wrong. Comets don't release that much energy.


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post...5/china-could-make-first-contact-aliens-would
> China on the hunt for aliens, and they invited Liu Cixin too. I hope the aliens will be more friendly than those from Liu's books


Is it behind a pay wall?


----------



## joen_cph

Johnnie Burgess said:


> And Joe Biden's son is getting millions of dollars from Putin and the Chinese leader is ok. Biden theatened to take billions from the Ukraine if they would not fire a prosecutor invesigating his son, sounds like obstruction of justice.


((( The Trump camp has now zeroed in on the idea that Biden wanted the prosecutor Shokin fired b/c he was investigating Burisma, the company his son worked for. In fact, Shokin he was a regrettable figure and wasn't investigating Burisma - he wasn't investigating much of anything - which is a big reason why the West & the Ukrainians wanted him fired; cf. also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin )))


----------



## geralmar

(Sigh). I am writing as an ex-true believer, having deeply embarrassed myself during my long ago college years. That said, I try to stay reasonably current with the subject and recommend the following websites:

For skeptics:

https://badufos.blogspot.com

For believers:

http://www.ufoimplications.com/radio_archive.html

I do support serious study of UFOs if only because misidentification of one of these things could trigger a nuclear response.


----------



## Jacck

joen_cph said:


> ((( The Trump camp has now zeroed in on the idea that Biden wanted the prosecutor Shokin fired b/c he was investigating Burisma, the company his son worked for. In fact, Shokin he was a regrettable figure and wasn't investigating Burisma - he wasn't investigating much of anything - which is a big reason why the West & the Ukrainians wanted him fired; cf. also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin )))


I would't be surprised if this were just an another disinformation/smearing campaign by the R-R party (Russian-Republican). Just as when they were shouting "lock Hillary up!" when she was using a private server for email (a minuscule infraction), and then Trump compromises national security in a 10000times more serious ways and they do not even notice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump's_disclosures_of_classified_information


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Is it behind a pay wall?


no, but here is similar text if that one does not work for you
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...-happens-if-china-makes-first-contact/544131/


----------



## Larkenfield

...............


----------



## philoctetes

Want a wow signal? Did this not ring a bell?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ake-waves-rippled-around-world-earth-geology/

A global earthquake happened and nobody felt it.


----------



## philoctetes

"when she was using a private server for email (a minuscule infraction)"

This is simply wrong, and ignores the entire Benghazi debacle. On this I agree with SM, just take it downstairs.


----------



## Luchesi

geralmar said:


> (Sigh). I am writing as an ex-true believer, having deeply embarrassed myself during my long ago college years. That said, I try to stay reasonably current with the subject and recommend the following websites:
> 
> For skeptics:
> 
> https://badufos.blogspot.com
> 
> For believers:
> 
> http://www.ufoimplications.com/radio_archive.html
> 
> I do support serious study of UFOs if only because misidentification of one of these things could trigger a nuclear response.


Did you see some unusual things in the sky?


----------



## philoctetes

Jacck said:


> https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post...5/china-could-make-first-contact-aliens-would
> China on the hunt for aliens, and they invited Liu Cixin too. I hope the aliens will be more friendly than those from Liu's books


They should name that dish The Wok


----------



## Strange Magic

philoctetes said:


> Want a wow signal? Did this not ring a bell?
> 
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ake-waves-rippled-around-world-earth-geology/
> 
> A global earthquake happened and nobody felt it.


.

This is just the sort of new, unexplained phenomenon that scientists love to encounter--something to investigate, gather data, examine hypotheses, discuss, compare notes.....


----------



## Jacck

5 REAL Possibilities for Interstellar Travel


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> 5 REAL Possibilities for Interstellar Travel
> [video=youtube;EzZGPCyrpSU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v


The large stars of Alpha Centauri orbit each other every 80 years, which is not good for human habitation of any planets that may have survived.

Proxima is a trillion miles away from them, about 0.22 lys. It doesn't support photosynthesis though.


----------



## joen_cph

"_The Milky Way could be teeming with interstellar alien civilizations, according to a new study. We just don't know about it because they haven't paid us a visit in 10 million years_."
https://www.sciencealert.com/aliens...laxy-and-visited-earth-already-new-study-says

"_One recent study estimated that up to 10 billion of planets in the Milky Way could be Earth-like._"
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/10-billion-earth-like-planets-in-milky-way-galaxy-2019-8


----------



## Strange Magic

Given the enormous distances to be traveled between stellar systems, even at near-light velocities, one speculates on the perception of elapsed time by the beings involved in multi-century or multi-millennium journeys. Unless beings are placed into deep hibernation, those creatures with extremely slow metabolisms and concomitant relaxed conceptions of the passage of time would be favored to survive such voyages mentally intact. But that raises questions about their ability to deal with abrupt real-time problems encountered after arriving at a new habitable planet and dealing with comparatively quick-moving hostile native species.


----------



## joen_cph

I think it's quite likely that any inhabitants of such advanced civilizations have transgressed limitations of their (earlier) biology.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Strange Magic said:


> Given the enormous distances to be traveled between stellar systems, even at near-light velocities, one speculates on the perception of elapsed time by the beings involved in multi-century or multi-millennium journeys. Unless beings are placed into deep hibernation, those creatures with extremely slow metabolisms and concomitant relaxed conceptions of the passage of time would be favored to survive such voyages mentally intact. But that raises questions about their ability to deal with abrupt real-time problems encountered after arriving at a new habitable planet and dealing with comparatively quick-moving hostile native species.


At relativistic speeds, time dilation makes the trips quite manageable. At constant 1g acceleration on could even get to the Andromeda galaxy within a human lifetime


----------



## philoctetes

joen_cph said:


> I think it's quite likely that any inhabitants of such advanced civilizations have transgressed limitations of their (earlier) biology.


An elite technocracy could focus on ways to extend life. They learn to quarantine or shield themselves from age factors as space travel technology also advances. Anti-aging and space exploration could conceivably have a compound effect that results in the next human growth boom.

An ET race could have done this long ago. And in places like SV, the techno-elites are already semi-secretly pursuing this very goal.


----------



## joen_cph

Indeed, not to speak of a life form living in a shape of technology and replacable parts.


----------



## Jacck

philoctetes said:


> An elite technocracy could focus on ways to extend life. They learn to quarantine or shield themselves from age factors as space travel technology also advances. Anti-aging and space exploration could conceivably have a compound effect that results in the next human growth boom.


yes, that would be great if the psychopaths ruling the planet could extend their life indefinitely, and the world would be governed by immortal Putins, while the rest of humanity would be at their mercy. So far, death has been the only justice in life. And no power today is really interested in space exploration, they are much more interested in creating nanoweapons and similar stuff


----------



## Luchesi

If we're lucky there's no intelligences nearby, because of the Rare Earth filters. Why would we want to risk this planet and our lives to talk to beings who might be monsters toward us? It's such a childish impulse. It's what parents tell their small children, not to engage with strangers. 
Run the Rare Earth numbers that say we're one of only ten in this supercluster of thousands of galaxies. Pretty special. But this universe is much rarer among universes, because the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are so special here. Amazing we are!


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> If we're lucky there's no intelligences nearby, because of the Rare Earth filters. Why would we want to risk this planet and our lives to talk to beings who might be monsters toward us? It's such a childish impulse. It's what parents tell their small children, not to engage with strangers.
> Run the Rare Earth numbers that say we're one of only ten in this supercluster of thousands of galaxies. Pretty special. But this universe is much rarer among universes, because the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are so special here. Amazing we are!


I never really liked the antropic principle. It is a case of circular reasoning and offers a backdoor for creationists how to sneak their religion into science, ie claiming that a creator was needed to fine-tune the conditions of the Big Bang and set the values of fundamental nature constants within the universe. I read a book about the constants years ago 
https://www.amazon.com/Constants-Nature-Numbers-Deepest-Universe/dp/1400032253
and now the string theorists have resurrected the idea


----------



## Dim7

Luchesi said:


> If we're lucky there's no intelligences nearby, because of the Rare Earth filters. Why would we want to risk this planet and our lives to talk to beings who might be monsters toward us? It's such a childish impulse. It's what parents tell their small children, not to engage with strangers.
> Run the Rare Earth numbers that say we're one of only ten in this supercluster of thousands of galaxies. Pretty special. But this universe is much rarer among universes, because the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are so special here. Amazing we are!


We shouldn't even wish to find non-intelligent life because the probability for some of the scarier explanations for the Fermi Paradox (technology inevitably gets too destructive as it advances beyond a certain point, hence we don't find signs of technological civilizations) being true go up in that case, since the simple explanation that life itself is rare would be pretty much ruled out.

That doesn't prevent me from irrationally wishing to see evidence of extraterrestrial life though...


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> I never really liked the antropic principle. It is a case of circular reasoning and offers a backdoor for creationists how to sneak their religion into science, ie claiming that a creator was needed to fine-tune the conditions of the Big Bang and set the values of fundamental nature constants within the universe. I read a book about the constants years ago
> https://www.amazon.com/Constants-Nature-Numbers-Deepest-Universe/dp/1400032253
> and now the string theorists have resurrected the idea


Yes, he's getting better at presenting these 'larger' views.

10^500 different ways universes can develop down through time from its so-called inflaton field. Gravity and negative gravity (within his quantum field concept) equal ONE so that it's the ultimate free lunch for universes. The negative gravity does dissipate, but by that time spacetime has expanded enough so that Dark Energy begins to become a significant factor (which depends upon its per-unit strength in each new universe). This changeover can be seen in the Type Ia supernova data. I think I remember, as seen in the data, that it took 5.5 billion years for Dark Energy to become strong enough to oppose a collapse due to gravity and begin the current acceleration. Gravity was slowing the expansion for a short time. Without this Dark Energy this universe would recollapse within 20 billion years (at the low end). There's papers on this. I don't know the latest.

Isn't it geocentric thinking to not expect there to be many many other universes?

Anthropic ideas are everywhere we look. By some estimates we need 3 to 4 mg of fluoride every day. Where does fluorine come from?

from wiki 
Among the lighter elements, fluorine's abundance value of 400 ppb (parts per billion) - 24th among elements in the universe - is exceptionally low: other elements from carbon to magnesium are twenty or more times as common.[55] This is because stellar nucleosynthesis processes bypass fluorine, and any fluorine atoms otherwise created have high nuclear cross sections, allowing further fusion with hydrogen or helium to generate oxygen or neon respectively.[55][56]
Beyond this transient existence, three explanations have been proposed for the presence of fluorine:[55][57]
•	during type II supernovae, bombardment of neon atoms by neutrinos could transmute them to fluorine;
•	the solar wind of Wolf-Rayet stars could blow fluorine away from any hydrogen or helium atoms; or
•	fluorine is borne out on convection currents arising from fusion in asymptotic giant branch stars.


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Yes, he's getting better at presenting these 'larger' views.
> Isn't it geocentric thinking to not expect there to be many many other universes?
> 
> Anthropic ideas are everywhere we look. By some estimates we need 3 to 4 mg of fluoride every day. Where does fluorine come from?
> 
> from wiki
> Among the lighter elements, fluorine's abundance value of 400 ppb (parts per billion) - 24th among elements in the universe - is exceptionally low: other elements from carbon to magnesium are twenty or more times as common.[55] This is because stellar nucleosynthesis processes bypass fluorine, and any fluorine atoms otherwise created have high nuclear cross sections, allowing further fusion with hydrogen or helium to generate oxygen or neon respectively.[55][56]
> Beyond this transient existence, three explanations have been proposed for the presence of fluorine:[55][57]
> •	during type II supernovae, bombardment of neon atoms by neutrinos could transmute them to fluorine;
> •	the solar wind of Wolf-Rayet stars could blow fluorine away from any hydrogen or helium atoms; or
> •	fluorine is borne out on convection currents arising from fusion in asymptotic giant branch stars.


I am loathe to wild speculations, hence I dismiss the multiverse as basically unscientific. It is grounded in string theory, which is an incomplete theory, that has never been confirmed by a single experiment. It might be correct, it might be completely wrong, I do not know and nobody does. The speculate about multiverses is like speculating about pink elephants in the Andromeda galaxy.

And is fluorine really required for life? We need fluorine, because we evolved in an environment rich in fluorine. We have no idea about other forms of life. There is life several kilometres into the Earth crust, bacteria that evolved to thrive on energy sources other than sunlight using different kinds of metabolism
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...fe-earth-mariana-trench-astrobiology-science/
we might even find life on Mars, because it has large underground water reservoirs.


----------



## Luchesi

"I am loathe to wild speculations, hence I dismiss the multiverse as basically unscientific."

I look at it differently. I think it's quite a religious mindset to merely project that we're the only universe. Where does that come from? 

Because if we do find the mechanism (beyond mere probability) by which a sequence of space-time fluctuations (maybe once in a trillion years) reach the top of the energy sombrero continually resulting in other big bangs, then the scientific path will be to incorporate the multiverse view, just like we did with the view that the speed of EM propagation is limited at the SOL and it's everywhere constant throughout the universe.. and all the other assumptions we make based upon bits of evidence.


----------



## KenOC

It would be horrible if we met real aliens and they turned out to eat meat and cheap fast foods, loved guns, tended to be overweight, talked real loud, wore red caps, groped pretty girls, and told Polish jokes. They would conquer the earth easily since a lot of its population would have fainted from shock.


----------



## Luchesi

Dim7 said:


> We shouldn't even wish to find non-intelligent life because the probability for some of the scarier explanations for the Fermi Paradox (technology inevitably gets too destructive as it advances beyond a certain point, hence we don't find signs of technological civilizations) being true go up in that case, since the simple explanation that life itself is rare would be pretty much ruled out.
> 
> That doesn't prevent me from irrationally wishing to see evidence of extraterrestrial life though...


Yes it's a way of thinking about this. I don't know if it's a valid way of thinking for our purposes. If life in other places has evolved to be multicellular, then it's crossed 2 huge hurdles. It means that it's more common than some estimates and most are probably older than we are -- so therefore some dangerous wall is out there for us, because we don't see even one tech/civ.


----------



## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> It would be horrible if we met real aliens and they turned out to eat meat and cheap fast foods, loved guns, tended to be overweight, talked real loud, wore red caps, groped pretty girls, and told Polish jokes. They would conquer the earth easily since a lot of its population would have fainted from shock.


Carl Sagan said fundamentalists are playing the survival game better than he was. They're the authentic hominids.


----------



## Strange Magic

*rr*



KenOC said:


> It would be horrible if we met real aliens and they turned out to eat meat and cheap fast foods, loved guns, tended to be overweight, talked real loud, wore red caps, groped pretty girls, and told Polish jokes. They would conquer the earth easily since a lot of its population would have fainted from shock.


Murray Leinster's 1945 sci-fi short story _First Contact_ worked this angle. Our spaceship while on a deep space reconnaissance encounters another, alien, spacecraft. The two ships delicately and remotely probe for one another's fields, weapons, etc., and manage to establish intelligible communication. After days of wary negotiation, the two ships' captains agree to swap ships and each species return to its home planet in the swapped ships while rendering their original ships incapable of tracing one another's paths through space to their home planets. Meanwhile, as crews of technicians work feverishly on each ship to prepare for the swap, idle crew members of both species, finding they each have two-sex reproduction, spend their time telling one another dirty jokes.


----------



## KenOC




----------



## Jacck

NASA found methane on Mars
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/methane-mars-mystery-curiosity-rover/593149/

and then the NASA chief says that we are close to finding life on Mars, but the world is not ready
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/30/us/nasa-life-on-mars-jim-green-scn-trnd/


----------



## philoctetes

Jacck said:


> NASA found methane on Mars
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/methane-mars-mystery-curiosity-rover/593149/
> 
> and then the NASA chief says that we are close to finding life on Mars, but the world is not ready
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/30/us/nasa-life-on-mars-jim-green-scn-trnd/


"if scientists discover biosignatures of life in Mars' crust, the findings could _*majorly*_ rock astrobiology"


----------



## Guest

Jacck said:


> NASA found methane on Mars
> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/methane-mars-mystery-curiosity-rover/593149/
> 
> and then the NASA chief says that we are close to finding life on Mars, but the world is not ready
> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/30/us/nasa-life-on-mars-jim-green-scn-trnd/


I wouldn't find it too shocking if they found residue of some simple form of life on Mars. Asteroid strikes launch debris into space and some of it finds its way to other planters. There are numerous meteorites found on earth that are believed to originate from Mars. Some bacteria, etc, could have gone along for the ride, in either direction. Could be very interesting if a form of life that is extinct and left no trace on earth is found on Mars. There are speculations that the precursor to life as we know it was a self-replicating RNA molecule, etc. Mars could be a time capsule for life. (All the more reason hope that the idiotic proposals to send people to Mars go nowhere, enormously valuable information could be destroyed.)


----------



## philoctetes

Meet the tardigrade

Tardigrades are among the most resilient animals known,[10][11] with individual species able to survive extreme conditions-such as exposure to extreme temperatures, extreme pressures (both high and low), air deprivation, radiation, dehydration, and starvation-that would quickly kill most other known forms of life.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade


----------



## Jacck

once we isolate their genes and create human/tardigrate chimeras, we can travel to the stars




http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170222-the-uneasy-truth-about-human-animal-hybrids


----------



## Guest

The question comes up, how do we define life? It doesn't have to be based on water/nucleic acid/polypeptides. A more general definition of life would include any self-replicating structure that extracts energy from the environment to organize and power itself. The effective human-based definition of life is a self-replicating structure that can watch television.


----------



## Jacck

hypotetically, there are other possible life biochemistries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry
it is said that the greys from Zeta Reticuli are silicon based


----------



## Guest

Jacck said:


> hypotetically, there are other possible life biochemistries
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry
> it is said that the greys from Zeta Reticuli are silicon based


Yes, and the Horta from Star Trek was also silicon based.


----------



## KenOC

'A band of alien hunters led by an ex-punk rocker claim they've found evidence of UFOs. The U.S. organization, bankrolled by former Blink-182 singer Tom DeLonge, says it's acquired "*exotic material*" from what could be an alien spacecraft…

' "The structure & composition of these materials are not from any known existing military or commercial application," says COO Steve Justice.' And cleverly disguised as a common rock! What further proof is needed?


----------



## Luchesi

philoctetes said:


> Meet the tardigrade
> 
> Tardigrades are among the most resilient animals known,[10][11] with individual species able to survive extreme conditions-such as exposure to extreme temperatures, extreme pressures (both high and low), air deprivation, radiation, dehydration, and starvation-that would quickly kill most other known forms of life.


Yes, but how 'resilient' were their ancestors they evolved from?


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Yes, but how 'resilient' were their ancestors they evolved from?


they might be aliens, ie they came from space


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> hypotetically, there are other possible life biochemistries
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry
> it is said that the greys from Zeta Reticuli are silicon based











Sol is out of place.


----------



## geralmar

Is anyone else perplexed at the title of this thread? "UFOs: Threat or Menace?" doesn't leave much room for debate. Two reasons I defected from the believer crowd are my refusal to believe aliens would travel half way across the galaxy specifically to dissect cows and stamp lines in wheat fields. Also, after 50 years of cow dissections one would think they'd figured out cow anatomy by now. (Plus they never landed on the White House lawn as promised).

Discussion on the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe is a far more interesting avocation. I admit I'm agnostic on the possibility. Life, maybe; "intelligent" life, less likely. My cat is perfectly adapted to life on earth, but shows no interest in extraterrestrial communication or exploration. In that regard, I believe we are alone.


----------



## Larkenfield

“Our sun is one of a 100 billion stars in our galaxy. Our galaxy is one of billions of galaxies populating the universe. It would be the height of presumption to think that we are the only living thing in that enormous immensity.” —Wernher von Braun


----------



## philoctetes

So Carl Sagan was just quoting a Nazi all that time on Nova? Ha.


----------



## Luchesi

Larkenfield said:


> "Our sun is one of a 100 billion stars in our galaxy. Our galaxy is one of billions of galaxies populating the universe. It would be the height of presumption to think that we are the only living thing in that enormous immensity." -Wernher von Braun


An opposing idea strikes home when you consider that an environment for life needs to be stable for probably a billion years, and for intelligence to arise another 3 or 4 or 5 billion years of stable conditions are required.

Where do we see this anywhere in the local universe? Only in our fluke of a double planet system (the Earth and Moon). It seems clear that the early timing and the molten states and the trajectory with the correct speeds and angles were needed to create our favorable and stable system, in order to have enough time for a manipulative intelligence before our star gets hot.


----------



## Room2201974

Luchesi said:


> An opposing idea strikes home when you consider that an environment for life needs to be stable for probably a billion years, and for intelligence to arise another 3 or 4 or 5 billion years of stable conditions are required.
> 
> Where do we see this anywhere in the local universe? Only in our fluke of a double planet system (the Earth and Moon). It seems clear that the early timing and the molten states and the trajectory with the correct speeds and angles were needed to create our favorable and stable system, in order to have enough time for a manipulative intelligence before our star gets hot.


See the Drake Equation! Already accounted for.

"The universe is a pretty big place. If it's just us, seems like an awful waste of space." ~ Carl Sagan

In 9 1/2 years of existence, the Kepler space telescope found over 2600 planets orbiting stars in just one small portion of the Milky Way near us. In 2012, an international team of scientists analyzing Kepler data concluded that there are an average of 1.6 planets per star or 160 billion planets in the Milky Way alone.

Besides, everyone knows that Orion slave girls are impossible to resist!


----------



## Guest

Luchesi said:


> An opposing idea strikes home when you consider that an environment for life needs to be stable for probably a billion years, and for intelligence to arise another 3 or 4 or 5 billion years of stable conditions are required.


And why wouldn't the typical planetary system be stable for billions of years, as our solar system has been?


----------



## philoctetes

Given a cosmic battle between low chances and high numbers, if it happened once it can happen again...


----------



## DaveM

This is still the way to handle threatening UFOs: a pastor/priest and WW2 vintage artillary.





u


----------



## Room2201974

DaveM said:


> This is still the way to handle threatening UFOs: a pastor/priest and WW2 vintage artillary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> u


Upper left hand corner.....someone who couldn't resist an Orion Slave girl.


----------



## EdwardBast

geralmar said:


> *Is anyone else perplexed at the title of this thread? "UFOs: Threat or Menace?" doesn't leave much room for debate.* Two reasons I defected from the believer crowd are my refusal to believe aliens would travel half way across the galaxy specifically to dissect cows and stamp lines in wheat fields. Also, after 50 years of cow dissections one would think they'd figured out cow anatomy by now. (Plus they never landed on the White House lawn as promised).
> 
> Discussion on the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe is a far more interesting avocation. I admit I'm agnostic on the possibility. Life, maybe; "intelligent" life, less likely. My cat is perfectly adapted to life on earth, but shows no interest in extraterrestrial communication or exploration. In that regard, I believe we are alone.


Those used to Ken's sense of humor are not perplexed at all. That title is exactly what I expect from him - and will miss if he ever fully assimilates to life on our planet.


----------



## EdwardBast

_____________________________


----------



## Luchesi

Room2201974 said:


> See the Drake Equation! Already accounted for.
> 
> "The universe is a pretty big place. If it's just us, seems like an awful waste of space." ~ Carl Sagan
> 
> In 9 1/2 years of existence, the Kepler space telescope found over 2600 planets orbiting stars in just one small portion of the Milky Way near us. In 2012, an international team of scientists analyzing Kepler data concluded that there are an average of 1.6 planets per star or 160 billion planets in the Milky Way alone.
> 
> Besides, everyone knows that Orion slave girls are impossible to resist!


You would need to calculate the probabilities for the trajectory, the timing, and the molten consistency.

Why did the Borg cross the road?

because it assimilated the chicken.


----------



## Luchesi

Baron Scarpia said:


> And why wouldn't the typical planetary system be stable for billions of years, as our solar system has been?


This unique history gave the Earth rotational axis stability and the largest core for its size.

The large core will be active for a longer time and it generates the magnetic field to protect us from high energy photons and also probably enables plate tectonics and the carbon cycle.


----------



## KenOC

Luchesi said:


> This unique history gave the Earth rotational axis stability and the largest core for its size.
> 
> The large core will be active for a longer time and it generates the magnetic field to protect us from high energy photons and also probably enables plate tectonics and the carbon cycle.


I suspect that all sentient races believe their planets are unique in ways that allowed them, in all their effulgent glory, to evolve.


----------



## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> I suspect that all sentient races believe their planets are unique in ways that allowed them, in all their effulgent glory, to evolve.


They say there needs to be a reason for intelligence to evolve, but in our case it was the accident of neoteny. Not very promising on the few earth-like planets out there. One in ten trillion star systems, so a handful in a supercluster.


----------



## Room2201974

Luchesi said:


> This unique history gave the Earth rotational axis stability and the largest core for its size.
> 
> The large core will be active for a longer time and it generates the magnetic field to protect us from high energy photons and also probably enables plate tectonics and the carbon cycle.


And of course, this would never happen again in 160 BILLION planets just in the Milky Way alone??????? Gee, what are the odds? And of course our galaxy is just one of anywhere between 200 billion to 2 trillion galaxies in the known universe. And yet, our planet would be unique?????? Ahhhhhh, egocentricism....thy name must be Earth!

As astronomers make new findings and modify the Drake Equation, it still comes up with a probability of life in the universe greater than 1. One of the few points of wide agreement is that the presence of humanity implies a probability of intelligence arising of greater than zero.

On a side "note" and with our discussion taking place in a music forum, there is a musical adaption of the Frank Drake equation. I call it the Nick Drake Equation which postulates that the rise of thoughtful, sensitive, thought-provoking and intelligent music in a universe of pop bullsheet is also greater than 0.


----------



## Luchesi

If there's a handful of intelligences, technical civilizations, within our rather small Virgo Supercluster then there's a trillion more beyond that in the wider universe. We're lucky that we're insulated from them by about 100 million years of travel time (we hope).


----------



## Larkenfield

Some observers seem to forget to consider that there might be a faster means of travel than the speed of light—something other-dimensional that human beings have not discovered yet and do not understand that makes it possible for one to transport oneself, for example, from here to the Pleiades within the twinkling of an eye. I would imagine that it’s already being done. The decision that the human race is faced with is to anticipate or not whether those outside our solar system are malefic or benefic influences, but probably with the usual homo sapiens' anticipation of fear.


----------



## Room2201974

Larkenfield said:


> Some observers seem to forget to consider that there might be a faster means of travel than the speed of light-something other-dimensional that human beings have not discovered yet and do not understand that makes it possible for one to transport oneself, for example, from here to the Pleiades within the twinkling of an eye. I would imagine that it's already being done. The decision that the human race is faced with is whether to anticipate or not whether those outside our solar system are malefic or benefic, but probably most likely with the usual anticipation of fear.


Or the opposite may be true. The universe may have limits as to what is actually feasible. We've been brought up in a time in which the linear advancement of travel has progressed from horse, to train, to car, to plane, to jet, and finally to rocket. Maybe the speed of light is a construct that cannot be overcome and worm holes may exist but not for travel. Seems to me that is the logical reason for the Fermi Paradox. Maybe no advanced intelligence has figured this out yet because there is nothing to figure out. So far, warp drive seems only to work on film!

**********

"I'll tell you something too that's starting to annoy me about UFO's; the fact that they cross galaxies or universes to visit us and always end up in places like… …Fyffe freaking Alabama. Maybe these aren't super-intelligent beings, you know what I mean, maybe they're like hillbilly aliens. Some intergalactic jode family or something, you know. Don't you all wanna land in New York, or L.A.? "Nah, we just had a long trip, we gonna kick back and whittle some, woo, woo, hi!" Oh my God, they're idiots! "We're gonna enter our mother ship in the tractor pool, woo, ha ha!" Last thing I wanna see is a flying saucer up on blocks in front of some trailer, you know. Bumper sticker on it: They'll get my ray gun when they ply my cold dead 18 fingered hand off of it!" Oh my God, we're being invaded by ********!" ~ Bill Hicks


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> Some observers seem to forget to consider that there might be a faster means of travel than the speed of light-something other-dimensional that human beings have not discovered yet and do not understand that makes it possible for one to transport oneself, for example, from here to the Pleiades within the twinkling of an eye. I would imagine that it's already being done. The decision that the human race is faced with is whether to anticipate or not whether those outside our solar system are malefic or benefic, but probably most likely with the usual anticipation of fear.


You realize there is no theoretical or empirical evidence to support that?

You read about wormholes and other extreme warping of space time, etc. Those are solutions that are not ruled out by general relativity, but there is no evidence that they actually exist in nature. Even if possible, to create such a thing artificially would presumably require inconceivable amounts of energy. And even if a wormhole were magically found, it wouldn't solve anything. To find for life you need to exhaustively search huge volumes of space. Being able to hop from one spot to another extremely remote spot doesn't help you search huge volumes of space. If you told me you had dropped my wallet somewhere in the continental United States, having a wormhole that allows me to pop from New York to Los Angeles doesn't help me search for my missing wallet.

It's science fiction, and not very good science fiction.

The boring truth is that the expanse of the universe is vast, even light goes very slowly compared to that, we can't exceed or even reasonably approach the speed of light. There is no way to communicate except for our own very local neighborhood. There very well may be life out there, existing at remote locations for brief periods of time, but we will never be able to find it or go there.


----------



## Larkenfield

“I have learned to use the word impossible with the greatest caution.” —Wernher von Braun.


----------



## Guest

Larkenfield said:


> "I have learned to use the word impossible with the greatest caution." -Wernher von Braun.


True enough, and I never used the word "impossible." But a very small fraction of what cannot be demonstrated impossible at any given time actually comes to pass.

As far as von Braun, yes, it is not impossible to put a capsule on top of an enormous tank of combustable liquid and shoot it into the air. Not quite the same twisting up space-time like a pretzel.


----------



## KenOC

That must mean it's time for the *Wernher Von Braun song*!


----------



## Jacck

there is a very fundamental theoretical reason why the speed of light is limited
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-isnt-the-speed-of-lig/
and anyone who knows something about physics (ie had some semesters of physics at university) knows that the speed limit is a very fundamental property of the universe and that the speed limit cannot be crossed. If supraluminal speeds were allowed, the whole logic of spacetime would crumble


----------



## KenOC

Remember the news from CERN back in 2011? "Scientists said on Thursday they recorded particles travelling *faster than light* - a finding that could overturn one of Einstein's fundamental laws of the universe." Turned out to be a loose cable. But you never know!


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> there is a very fundamental theoretical reason why the speed of light is limited
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-isnt-the-speed-of-lig/
> and anyone who knows something about physics (ie had some semesters of physics at university) knows that the speed limit is a very fundamental property of the universe and that the speed limit cannot be crossed. If supraluminal speeds were allowed, the whole logic of spacetime would crumble


 If we are in a simulation then "time" would slow down for the observer of an event which was moving very fast or very close to a large mass of particles because the number of computations required to simulate it would need to be increased immeasurably.


----------



## Guest

Luchesi said:


> If we are in a simulation then "time" would slow down for the observer of an event which was moving very fast or very close to a large mass of particles because the number of computations required to simulate it would need to be increased immeasurably.


So you are saying it is possible that we are in a simulation written by an incompetent programmer who is not keeping track of the time base in different simulation steps? Well, maybe that explains yesterday when the sky briefly went black and I distinctly saw a message in the heavens, "floating point exception: divide by zero," before things returned to normal.


----------



## Luchesi

Baron Scarpia said:


> So you are saying it is possible that we are in a simulation written by an incompetent programmer who is not keeping track of the time base in different simulation steps? Well, maybe that explains yesterday when the sky briefly went black and I distinctly saw a message in the heavens, "floating point exception: divide by zero," before things returned to normal.


And if you fell into a black hole you'd realize that the computations of all that, couldn't keep up.

If you got run over by a bus, you'd continue to be 'sentient' as a simulated ghost.


----------



## Guest

Luchesi said:


> And if you fell into a black hole you'd realize that the computations of all that, couldn't keep up.
> 
> *If you got run over by a bus, you'd continue to be 'sentient' as a simulated ghost.*


You'll forgive me if I leave it to you to test that theory. :lol:


----------



## Jacck

Former NASA scientist says they found life on Mars in the 1970s


----------



## Luchesi

I only started space exploration this week and already I've colonized Venus and Mars!

V:e:n:u:s:a:n:d:M:a:r:s


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## Bwv 1080

Due to time dilation, interstellar travel is feasible within human life times, sustaining 1g acceleration, a human could even make it to Andromeda within their lifetime. The issue, of course, is an energy source to sustain this acceleration.


----------



## Dim7

Bwv 1080 said:


> Due to time dilation, interstellar travel is feasible within human life times, sustaining 1g acceleration, a human could even make it to Andromeda within their lifetime. The issue, of course, is an energy source to sustain this acceleration.


Which is why I think it's probably more feasible to extend human lifetime than to reach those speeds.


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## Luchesi

deleted --- I don't think my post was correct so I don't want to mislead anyone.


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## KenOC

A NASA scientist has created a *new concept* for an engine that he says can move "close to the speed of light" - all without any moving parts or need for fuel.

"A new concept for in-space propulsion is proposed in which propellant is not ejected from the engine, but instead is captured to create a nearly infinite specific impulse," David Burns wrote in the paper's abstract. "The engine accelerates ions confined in a loop to moderate relativistic speeds, and then varies their velocity to make slight changes to their mass. The engine then moves ions back and forth along the direction of travel to produce thrust."

"It could also propel spacecraft across interstellar distances, reaching close to the speed of light. The engine has no moving parts other than ions traveling in a vacuum line, trapped inside electric and magnetic fields."

Burns modestly notes that he's not sure this will work…


----------



## Strange Magic

KenOC said:


> A NASA scientist has created a *new concept* for an engine that he says can move "close to the speed of light" - all without any moving parts or need for fuel.
> 
> "A new concept for in-space propulsion is proposed in which propellant is not ejected from the engine, but instead is captured to create a nearly infinite specific impulse," David Burns wrote in the paper's abstract. "The engine accelerates ions confined in a loop to moderate relativistic speeds, and then varies their velocity to make slight changes to their mass. The engine then moves ions back and forth along the direction of travel to produce thrust."
> 
> "It could also propel spacecraft across interstellar distances, reaching close to the speed of light. The engine has no moving parts other than ions traveling in a vacuum line, trapped inside electric and magnetic fields."
> 
> Burns modestly notes that he's not sure this will work…


I also invented something like that, and sold it to General Motors years ago. But the check bounced and they don't return my calls.


----------



## MarkW

KenOC said:


> A NASA scientist has created a *new concept* for an engine that he says can move "close to the speed of light" - all without any moving parts or need for fuel.
> 
> "A new concept for in-space propulsion is proposed in which propellant is not ejected from the engine, but instead is captured to create a nearly infinite specific impulse," David Burns wrote in the paper's abstract. "The engine accelerates ions confined in a loop to moderate relativistic speeds, and then varies their velocity to make slight changes to their mass. The engine then moves ions back and forth along the direction of travel to produce thrust."
> 
> "It could also propel spacecraft across interstellar distances, reaching close to the speed of light. The engine has no moving parts other than ions traveling in a vacuum line, trapped inside electric and magnetic fields."
> 
> Burns modestly notes that he's not sure this will work…


Sounds like perpetual motion to me.


----------



## Strange Magic

MarkW said:


> Sounds like perpetual motion to me.


Or a variation of "Centromat Drive", an automobile propulsion system invented by Car & Driver Magazine decades ago when the first Mazda Wankel engine was introduced into the marketplace. Their tongue was firmly in their cheek.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> A NASA scientist has created a *new concept* for an engine that he says can move "close to the speed of light" - all without any moving parts or need for fuel.
> 
> "A new concept for in-space propulsion is proposed in which propellant is not ejected from the engine, but instead is captured to create a nearly infinite specific impulse," David Burns wrote in the paper's abstract. "The engine accelerates ions confined in a loop to moderate relativistic speeds, and then varies their velocity to make slight changes to their mass. The engine then moves ions back and forth along the direction of travel to produce thrust."
> 
> "It could also propel spacecraft across interstellar distances, reaching close to the speed of light. The engine has no moving parts other than ions traveling in a vacuum line, trapped inside electric and magnetic fields."
> 
> Burns modestly notes that he's not sure this will work…


I read something about this somewhere, something to the effect that the ions undergo faster helical motion when hitting one end of the containment field than the other, causing a net momentum impulse due to the difference in effective mass.

The problem is not that it is a perpetual motion machine, but that it seems to violate momentum conservation, since the vessel achieves a net momentum and there is not canceling momentum. (A jet engine works because the engine moves one way while the exhaust goes the other way so the net momentum change is zero.)

I'd bet any sum of money that the thing doesn't work. Perhaps they are calculating using special relativity when something resembling general relative is needed to get the right answer.


----------



## Flamme

Probably a deceit...I want them 2 b real but its all just smoke and mirrors.


----------



## hammeredklavier

Wagner should have written for a scene like this. It would have been so epic:


----------



## Marinera

^
This story was one of many published in this book


----------



## Flamme

I'm longing for them to take me, since childhood. It stopped though and for many years I didn't look into night skies with yearning and sadness but recently it came back, like a ghost from past, enveloping me whenever I go out into the starry night.


----------



## joen_cph

Well, the assumption that we all live in a computerized universe anyway is getting some momentum:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/


----------



## Flamme

A cool story that always creeped me out


----------



## Varick

No such thing as UFOs. It's all just weather balloons.

Please disperse! Nothing to see here!

V


----------



## Jacck

joen_cph said:


> Well, the assumption that we all live in a computerized universe anyway is getting some momentum:
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/


Already Plato knew that (the cave analogy)


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> Already Plato knew that (the cave analogy)


If I'm looking for tikaalik fossil specimen, I go to the rock site of the correct age and exposure in which the last specimen was found. I find one.

How could this be simulated? I find what I'd expect to find?


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> If I'm looking for tikaalik fossil specimen, I go to the rock site of the correct age and exposure in which the last specimen was found. I find one.
> How could this be simulated? I find what I'd expect to find?


I dont understand what you are asking. Everything could be simulated. Some of these modern stringy theories are crazy. The solid part of physics ends with the Standard Model. Anything beyond the Standard Model, especially based on string theory, is very speculative. These theories, that postulate that the universe is a simulation, mostly come from the Holographic principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

the basic principle is that it can be shown, that the laws inside a certain boundary can be described with an equivalent theory on the boundary itself. The most famous is the AdS/CFT correspondence, but other such correspondences were found. This is also the reason why some speculate that our 3D universe exists inside a black hole and that the 3D is an illusion, in reality we exist on the 2D boundary. 
https://insidescience.org/news/every-black-hole-contains-new-universe


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> I dont understand what you are asking. Everything could be simulated. Some of these modern stringy theories are crazy. The solid part of physics ends with the Standard Model. Anything beyond the Standard Model, especially based on string theory, is very speculative. These theories, that postulate that the universe is a simulation, mostly come from the Holographic principle
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
> 
> the basic principle is that it can be shown, that the laws inside a certain boundary can be described with an equivalent theory on the boundary itself. The most famous is the AdS/CFT correspondence, but other such correspondences were found. This is also the reason why some speculate that our 3D universe exists inside a black hole and that the 3D is an illusion, in reality we exist on the 2D boundary.
> https://insidescience.org/news/every-black-hole-contains-new-universe


This simulation concept seems to be one of only holographic energy (what else is there?). It's all subtle energy, but that's just as QM also seems to indicate that everything is bumps within energy fields. There's nothing but energy! It could be a simulation of merely controlled energy. The difference between a natural universe and a simulated one would be that the simulated one has an intelligence behind it.

But now I guess torsion was the missing concept.

Torsion kept the universe from becoming a singularity (at such times during which it had been in a very dense state).
Torsion caused the early inflation of explosive expansion.
Then torsion slowly changed into a new mechanism which slowed the inflation down (to about the speed of light?).
And eventually, the torsion of space-time is actually the slight dark energy repulsion that we measure in the expansion data.
And today, torsion doesn't allow black holes to become singularities (hooray for that!, one fewer mystery to get distracted by).


----------



## Flamme

When mentioned holographs...Some say its all a ''grand conspiracy'' and all UFS seen around the world are PROJECTED INTO SKY, by some secret governments plot to what end, the announcing of NWO https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/What-is-Project-Blue-Beam/articleshow/3371815.cms


----------



## joen_cph

Flamme said:


> When mentioned holographs...Some say its all a ''grand conspiracy'' and all UFS seen around the world are PROJECTED INTO SKY, by some secret governments plot to what end, the announcing of NWO https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/What-is-Project-Blue-Beam/articleshow/3371815.cms


That's pretty ridiculous.


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> When mentioned holographs...Some say its all a ''grand conspiracy'' and all UFS seen around the world are PROJECTED INTO SKY, by some secret governments plot to what end, the announcing of NWO https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/What-is-Project-Blue-Beam/articleshow/3371815.cms


I've worked for the federal government for decades and I can tell you it's not that capable. Governments are just people. A revolving door of technical experts.
People can't keep secrets over years. The older workers are just looking toward the early retirement packages.


----------



## Flamme

But do you think US gov has something really, really special in its armory, that is capable of UFO stunts...Like the ''Tic tac'' ufo?
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ufo-sp...rd-watching-as-pandemic-obsession-11598986541 lol


----------



## DeepR

The more I learn about (theories on) how the solar system and planet earth were formed and how life evolved on earth, the more ridiculously "random" we seem to be. All these chance events that were required for us to exist..... The outcome of such a process on another world in another star system will be completely different everytime. If life is out there we may not even recognize it.
So many factors to consider that make earth the stable water-rich planet that it is. 
I don't think they've found anything like our solar system yet, have they?


----------



## joen_cph

DeepR said:


> The more I learn about (theories on) how the solar system and planet earth were formed and how life evolved on earth, the more ridiculously "random" we seem to be. All these chance events that were required for us to exist..... The outcome of such a process on another world in another star system will be completely different everytime. If life is out there we may not even recognize it.
> So many factors to consider that make earth the stable water-rich planet that it is.
> I don't think they've found anything like our solar system yet, have they?


They've already found a lot of planets that are considered in a hospitable zone, and a few likely Earth-like. But we're just in the beginning of the beginning of such research:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_potentially_habitable_exoplanets


----------



## Dan Ante

I had an experience in the late 50s which I can’t explain, I was in the country side having a bit of slap and tickle with my future wife it was a dark but very clear night and I saw what I thought was a shooting star but it was coming in a straight line overhead towards us no blinking or noise then it changed course by 90 deg to our right it was a sudden immediate turn no curve etc which an aircraft would make just an immediate change of direction. It has always puzzled me.


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> But do you think US gov has something really, really special in its armory, that is capable of UFO stunts...Like the ''Tic tac'' ufo?
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/ufo-sp...rd-watching-as-pandemic-obsession-11598986541 lol


I doubt it, but in any case why would a representative government participate in a such an expensive and silly charade? To confuse other nation states? There are expert analysts outside of government, so why risk being exposed in chicanery?

I wouldn't think that a government would intentionally spur the sales of the paperback books and cultish groups. Perhaps, in government mindsets, it would be a convenient cover for the future, if it was ever needed. This might have been a strategy in the 1950s.


----------



## Luchesi

Luchesi said:


> I doubt it, but in any case why would a representative government participate in a such an expensive and silly charade? To confuse other nation states? There are expert analysts outside of government, so why risk being exposed in chicanery?
> 
> I wouldn't think that a government would intentionally spur the sales of the paperback books and cultish groups. Perhaps, in government mindsets, it would be a convenient cover for the future, if it was ever needed. This might have been a strategy in the 1950s.


added - We all worked with Project Bluebook in the 60s and 70s. When a call about a sighting came in we had this long form to fill out, to send out to 10 different agencies. We dreaded it!


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> added - We all worked with Project Bluebook in the 60s and 70s. When a call about a sighting came in we had this long form to fill out, to send out to 10 different agencies. We dreaded it!


when I was like 13-14 years old, I tended to believe some of these UFO myths, but I quickly realized how nonsensical the whole UFO movement is. Many of these contactees have been exposed as frauds (e.g. Billy Meier) and it makes absolutely no sense that there are UFOs here, hiding from us, observing us and making crop circles to impress us and they flew here over all these vast cosmic distances just to do that. There are likely some aliens out there (in the vast cosmos), but they are unlikely here making crop circles.


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> when I was like 13-14 years old, I tended to believe some of these UFO myths, but I quickly realized how nonsensical the whole UFO movement is. Many of these contactees have been exposed as frauds (e.g. Billy Meier) and it makes absolutely no sense that there are UFOs here, hiding from us, observing us and making crop circles to impress us and they flew here over all these vast cosmic distances just to do that. There are likely some aliens out there (in the vast cosmos), but they are unlikely here making crop circles.


I'm quite angry about the crop circle hoaxers. They're drastically affecting vulnerable peoples' lives. They should get ten years in prison to think about what they've done.


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> I'm quite angry about the crop circle hoaxers. They're drastically affecting vulnerable peoples' lives. They should get ten years in prison to think about what they've done.


But some of them are quite pieces of art. 









it must be pretty hard to make such a big circle with such an amount of precision without leaving much trails


----------



## Ariasexta

I do not even believe that our Sun has an age, and so does the whole universe. Few of astronomical theories make sense to me, the Big Bang, if there is indeed a Big Bang, why we can not see the center of the Bang but we can see the very end of the universe? The logics does not add up they cover up with self-contraditing mathematical formulae. But I believe truth is more fantastic and beautiful than modern science, which is a selective representation of one holistic magic. UFO is not beautiful at all, most of them, if a few do look interesting sometimes. Why we seek truth at all, because it is always more elegant and beautiful than the lies. Simple.


----------



## EdwardBast

Jacck said:


> But some of them are quite pieces of art.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it must be pretty hard to make such a big circle with such an amount of precision without leaving much trails


That is a work of art, but your comment confuses me. They left literally hundreds of trails!


----------



## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> I do not even believe that our Sun has an age, and so does the whole universe. Few of astronomical theories make sense to me, the Big Bang, if there is indeed a Big Bang, why we can not see the center of the Bang but we can see the very end of the universe? The logics does not add up they cover up with self-contraditing mathematical formulae. But I believe truth is more fantastic and beautiful than modern science, which is a selective representation of one holistic magic. UFO is not beautiful at all, most of them, if a few do look interesting sometimes. Why we seek truth at all, because it is always more elegant and beautiful than the lies. Simple.


Our sun is middle-aged, but curiously it's almost exactly one third of the age since the big bang. Spooky numerology!

The early moments after the big bang were very hot. Only gravitational waves will allow us to gather data from before the year 380,000.


----------



## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> Our sun is middle-aged, but curiously it's almost exactly one third of the age since the big bang. Spooky numerology!
> 
> The early moments after the big bang were very hot. Only gravitational waves will allow us to gather data from before the year 380,000.


Nothing proves that the Sun has an age, we are only set to live under 100 years of age, almost clocked like some radioactive materials in the sense of half-life. Radioactivity is the only clock in the universe which can help dating of some objects. We have nothing of the concrete and accessible evidences that the composition of the Sun is exactly the same as described by the scientitsts. Why can`t we believe in the mythology like we believe in the modern deceptive systems like communism and capitalism? Empiricism leads to communism inevitably, it is what we are witnessing around the world.


----------



## Dan Ante

Ariasexta said:


> Nothing proves that the Sun has an age, we are only set to live under 100 years of age,


How about all the people that are over 100 are they cheating?


----------



## Jacck

EdwardBast said:


> That is a work of art, but your comment confuses me. They left literally hundreds of trails!


would you be able to create such a crop circle at night in the middle of a field?


----------



## mikeh375

Anybody seen this?


----------



## Flamme

I wish someone would finally make an anti-gravity propulsion engine...If it isn't already!!!


----------



## Dan Ante

mikeh375 said:


> Anybody seen this?


*Didn't see a thing*..........


----------



## joen_cph

mikeh375 said:


> Anybody seen this?


When they play such music, that in itself makes one suspicious about the motives. 
Also, it's a simple piece of cake to falsify pictures/videos these days, you need experts to check the material for sure, and tell of their results.


----------



## Flamme

mikeh375 said:


> Anybody seen this?


Whatever it is, it is fast as heeellll...On first glance it looks like a plastic bag carried by the wind, BUT there isn't a breeze around, the trees and grass are still!!!


----------



## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> Nothing proves that the Sun has an age, we are only set to live under 100 years of age, almost clocked like some radioactive materials in the sense of half-life. Radioactivity is the only clock in the universe which can help dating of some objects. We have nothing of the concrete and accessible evidences that the composition of the Sun is exactly the same as described by the scientitsts. Why can`t we believe in the mythology like we believe in the modern deceptive systems like communism and capitalism? Empiricism leads to communism inevitably, it is what we are witnessing around the world.


Which mythology satisfies your discovering nature?


----------



## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> Which mythology satisfies your discovering nature?


Discovering how people lie to themself without being aware of, also do I myself. Marxist science helps people discover infinitely more possibilities of lying to people and themselves.


----------



## Flamme

Do you see something there, luchesi???


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> Do you see something there, luchesi???


Yes, myths to live by. They're very helpful.


----------



## Flamme

No, I meant in a footage of a fast moving object?


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> No, I meant in a footage of a fast moving object?


Is it falling faster than just the pull of the Earth's gravity?

Intelligent aliens must know that photos and videos aren't reliable evidence (since the 1960s), but they would appear so hideous to us humans that they've decided that showing themselves would be bad, for both sides.


----------



## KenOC

Luchesi said:


> Intelligent aliens must know that photos and videos aren't reliable evidence (since the 1960s), but they would appear so hideous to us humans that they've decided that showing themselves would be bad, for both sides.


I have it on good authority that those aliens are so ugly that they can't even stand to look at themselves. That's why they're always in such a bad mood.


----------



## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> I have it on good authority that those aliens are so ugly that they can't even stand to look at themselves. That's why they're always in such a bad mood.


You have so many more posts than the rest of us, don't be surprised if they contact you, thinking you're our valorous leader.


----------



## geralmar




----------



## geralmar




----------



## Dan Ante

geralmar said:


>


Just saw the same on GMG


----------



## Flamme

Jacck said:


> when I was like 13-14 years old, I tended to believe some of these UFO myths, but I quickly realized how nonsensical the whole UFO movement is. Many of these contactees have been exposed as frauds (e.g. Billy Meier) and it makes absolutely no sense that there are UFOs here, hiding from us, observing us and making crop circles to impress us and they flew here over all these vast cosmic distances just to do that. There are likely some aliens out there (in the vast cosmos), but they are unlikely here making crop circles.


I truly wanted to believe in ''extra'' terrestrial visits but in time, when nothing happened, I became a bit of a sceptic...Now I sometimes think they are not from the ''outer'' space but from the inner ones, the subconscience or ''parallel dimensions''...


----------



## NoCoPilot

Flamme said:


> I truly wanted to believe in ''extra'' terrestrial visits but in time, when nothing happened, I became a bit of a sceptic...Now I sometimes think they are not from the ''outer'' space but from the inner ones, the subconscience or ''parallel dimensions''...


Yeah, that makes MUCH more sense....


----------



## Flamme

Dont get salty bruh...No aunty phas in them saucers, so far...


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> I truly wanted to believe in ''extra'' terrestrial visits but in time, when nothing happened, I became a bit of a sceptic...Now I sometimes think they are not from the ''outer'' space but from the inner ones, the subconscience or ''parallel dimensions''...


I've never wanted ETs to be visiting us. It seems so distressing and irreversible.
Does an ant want humans stomping around its ant hill?


----------



## Flamme

Speaking about subconscience I really like Jacques Vallee take on things...https://www.amazon.com/Passport-Mag...W9YJZNVBJ7R&psc=1&refRID=ZRMAX58N0W9YJZNVBJ7R


----------



## mikeh375

Arthur C C was right.....perhaps.

https://news.sky.com/story/mysterious-metal-monolith-found-in-remote-part-of-utah-by-state-officials-counting-sheep-12140885


----------



## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> Arthur C C was right.....perhaps.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/mysterio...ah-by-state-officials-counting-sheep-12140885


The aliens better show up soon cause I'm not getting any younger.. It's been 70 or 80 years of imaginative talk. The numbers say there's nothing within 1000 light years.


----------



## mikeh375

Luchesi said:


> The aliens better show up soon cause I'm not getting any younger.. It's been 70 or 80 years of imaginative talk. The numbers say there's nothing within 1000 light years.


yeah, I'd like to know too. I just watched this last night and it got me yearning again as there was a lot of credibility about some of the people interviewed.


----------



## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> The aliens better show up soon cause I'm not getting any younger.. It's been 70 or 80 years of imaginative talk. The numbers say there's nothing within 1000 light years.


It's been a fashionable subject even since the late 19th century (the alleged canals on Mars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_canal, civilizations there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_in_culture, Flammarion's, Verne's and Wells' writings, the "Mystery Airships" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufology, 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object etc.) and there were also speculative examples before.


----------



## juliante

Jacck said:


> it might be surmountable using robots, ie sending automated robotic ships that would be transporting just the DNA code and that would create the colonists from the DNA once on a suitable planet.


Have you read Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky by the way?


----------



## eljr

If there were facts to back up intelligent life driving these UFO's our President Trump would have blabbed it by now.


----------



## NoCoPilot

There is no intelligent life in the universe


----------



## joen_cph

(deleted, sorry)


----------



## Phil loves classical

There are over 3000 planets discovered, many more moons, and many more undiscovered that orbit the stars in the sky. The likelihood that there is no intelligent life is next to zero. The fact we are here shows its possibility. If there was only a 1/10000 chance a planet/moon is hospitable to life, and you take 10000 instances, the expected value is 1. When you take tens of thousands of instances, it becomes more likely there is life. How intelligent? Kind of relative. I find my cat pretty intelligent, enough to call it intelligent life.

But UFO's is a different matter. For intelligent life to come here, make itself seen and not cause devastation to our race, they must be pretty advanced and have a level of benevolence, which doesn't fit Darwin's model, unless they are cultivating us like bacteria to be consumed somehow.


----------



## NoCoPilot

The chance for intelligent life is impossible to calculate. We have, afterall, only one example to go off*. However books like "Rare Earth" and "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" describe the nearly-unbelievable series of events and coincidences that led to our being here, and the chance of those or similar events occurring elsewhere are slim-to-none. Because we see life everywhere around us on Earth we think it must be ubiquitous everywhere, but that's simply not the case. Life is very much the exception rather than the rule.

And intelligent life is very much the exception even here on Earth where life is abundant.

UFOs? They belong in the same category as ghosts and angels.



* - The Drake Equation is purely speculative


----------



## eljr

NoCoPilot said:


> Because we see life everywhere around us on Earth we think it must be ubiquitous everywhere, but that's simply not the case. Life is very much the exception rather than the rule..


Not really.

But of course it depends on your definition of life.

Biological blobs like us may not be as plentiful as other forms.


----------



## joen_cph

NoCoPilot said:


> The chance for intelligent life is impossible to calculate. We have, afterall, only one example to go off. However books like "Rare Earth" and "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" describe the nearly-unbelievable series of events and coincidences that led to our being here, and the chance of those or similar events occurring elsewhere are slim-to-none. Because we see life everywhere around us on Earth we think it must be ubiquitous everywhere, but that's simply not the case. Life is very much the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> UFOs? They belong in the same category as ghosts and angels.


We've been down this way before, and scientific research is only in the beginning of the beginning, but planets in a hospitable zone are likely to be in billions:
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/nasa-mission-finds-300-million-22984577

(sorry, edited a lot due to links, copying etc.)


----------



## Flamme

mikeh375 said:


> yeah, I'd like to know too. I just watched this last night and it got me yearning again as there was a lot of credibility about some of the people interviewed.


This is about rendlesham?


----------



## mikeh375

Flamme said:


> This is about rendlesham?


No it's not Flamme, although that is mentioned. Its a potted history with some brilliant interviews with officials and military men.
It covers up to the present day including one intriguing case in Africa at a school....good thought provoking stuff, mainly because of the calibre of people interviewed.


----------



## NoCoPilot

eljr said:


> Not really.
> 
> But of course it depends on your definition of life.


Define it any way you like, it's never been found anywhere except Earth. Some asteroids have had amino acids on them, but they can be naturally occurring and do not themselves have any characteristics we associate with "life."


----------



## NoCoPilot

joen_cph said:


> planets in a hospitable zone are likely to be in billions


Being the right distance from a star is only one of about two thousand things that have to go right for life. Google the Great Oxygenation Event.


----------



## NoCoPilot

The OTHER thing these pseudo-science Star Trek-inspired articles never mention is *distance*. If there are any inhabited planets in the Milky Way, they'd be too far away for us to ever communicate with them, let alone visit.

The speed of light is a hard limit to how far we can reach out.


----------



## joen_cph

NoCoPilot said:


> Being the right distance from a star is only one of about two thousand things that have to go right for life. Google the Great Oxygenation Event.


Multicellular/complicated life seems to have predated it
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150701-the-origin-of-the-air-we-breathe

and new innovative signs of life strategies are found all the time, including life forms that don't need oxygen
https://nationalpost.com/news/world...rst-animal-that-doesnt-need-to-breathe-oxygen



NoCoPilot said:


> The OTHER thing these pseudo-science Star Trek-inspired articles never mention is *distance*. If there are any inhabited planets in the Milky Way, they'd be too far away for us to ever communicate with them, let alone visit.
> 
> The speed of light is a hard limit to how far we can reach out.


This obstacle is serious, indeed.


----------



## NoCoPilot

The discussion of whether extraterrestrial life exists is a fun argument to have because nobody has any evidence either way.

You're free to make up any logic you want.


----------



## NoCoPilot

joen_cph said:


> Multicellular/complicated life seems to have predated it.


I wouldn't call algae mats "complicated life." They can't even use a cellphone.


----------



## joen_cph

Yet the potentials rather than the hindrances, of life elsewhere, seem to grow exponentially, rather than diminish, these days, according to the opinions of most scientists in the field. But I've seen the estimation that if no, more certain, indications are found within say 3 decades, it's probably going to be very difficult or impossible to identify life elsewhere.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

The primary evidence is personal experience , and it may only be shared intimately . Touch my finger .


----------



## NoCoPilot

Anti-environmentalists like to promote the fiction that if we ruin the Earth, we'll just get in the car and move.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Tikoo Tuba said:


> The primary evidence is personal experience , and it may only be shared intimately . Touch my finger .


Does it light up?


----------



## joen_cph

( cf. ............................................................







)


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Being the right distance from a star is only one of about two thousand things that have to go right for life. Google the Great Oxygenation Event.


Yes, I find it hard to believe that those thousands of conditions will arise within our nearby galaxies. But that still leaves millions of sites with manipulative intelligences in the wider universe.

Intelligent life probably requires at least a few billion years of stable conditions within favorable ranges. Axial stability is probably rare.

We needed protection from radiation, but our star is unique (quiescent) within the group of 300 similar stars that were studied. A surprising result.

Long-lived cores for protective magnetospheres and for tectonics/Carbon Cycle are probably rare.

Maybe a Jupiter and a favorable sequence of impacts (not too many, not too few).


----------



## Flamme

I truly love the rendlesham mystery...Some say it was all a prank on yanks by their british colleagues tho!


----------



## NoCoPilot

As Ellie's dad says, "If it's just us, that seems like an awful waste of space."


----------



## Flamme

People say that the location of the forest in itself is a very spooky place, w or w/o aliens...On my bucket list lol 
Anyway...https://thelevantnews.com/en/2020/1...en-revealed-details-of-unexplained-encounter/
Does anyone know about Earl Mountbatten case? Never heard of it before...


----------



## Luchesi

We're so lucky. All those favorable happenstances AND lucky that we've emerged early in this universe, because with more and more billions of years this universe might become very crowded (read that as dangerous).


----------



## Flamme

Some sceptics argue on why there is no MORE ufo cases, landings and sightings in general...They didnt think that ''maybe'' the aliens are just very far away even with supreme technology and can only appear in like one decade or century like we can go to moon, like in this stage its almost undoable again...


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> Some sceptics argue on why there is no MORE ufo cases, landings and sightings in general...They didnt think that ''maybe'' the aliens are just very far away even with supreme technology and can only appear in like one decade or century like we can go to moon, like in this stage its almost undoable again...


Please rephrase that. I can't understand what you mean.


----------



## Flamme

I have a new keyboard its a bit tricky to type lol But I was pretty clear...Aliens ''maybe'' dont have the means to travel to earth in those numbers and time intervals that will prove to sceptics that they ''exist''...Because of that, the real ''true cases'' are few and far between.


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> I have a new keyboard its a bit tricky to type lol But I was pretty clear...Aliens ''maybe'' dont have the means to travel to earth in those numbers and time intervals that will prove to sceptics that they ''exist''...Because of that, the real ''true cases'' are few and far between.


Thanks. 
I've had a bad feeling that they're monitoring us so that when we produce self-improving AI they will destroy civilization on our planet, because such AI can't be allowed to proliferate out into the galaxy.


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Thanks.
> I've had a bad feeling that they're monitoring us so that when we produce self-improving AI they will destroy civilization on our planet, because such AI can't be allowed to proliferate out into the galaxy.


Vanamonde (from The City and the Stars) and other benevolent and malevolent superintelligences is already on the rampage somewhere out there


----------



## Flamme

I read about this case when I was a kid and needed to sleep with my light on...


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

SETI ? This was once a popular scientist' hobby club . The minutes of their annual convention were fun to read .
It's just not so popular as it was .

I think we need a new word . It'd refer to a life-form native to Earth 
that is smarter than human yet still has some love for us . They have
hope . We are expected to protect the Earth from killer asteroids .


----------



## NoCoPilot

Tikoo Tuba said:


> SETI ?
> I think we need a new word . It'd refer to a life-form native to Earth
> that is smarter than human yet still has some love for us . They have
> hope . We are expected to protect the Earth from killer asteroids .


Instead of the "Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence," how about the "Search for Terrestrial Defenders"?


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

STD ? That's disgusting .


----------



## Luchesi

Tikoo Tuba said:


> SETI ? This was once a popular scientist' hobby club . The minutes of their annual convention were fun to read .
> It's just not so popular as it was .
> 
> I think we need a new word . It'd refer to a life-form native to Earth
> that is smarter than human yet still has some love for us . They have
> hope . We are expected to protect the Earth from killer asteroids .


cetaceans? They've had large brains more than 10 times longer than us and what have they accomplished?

Well, they haven't eradicated fellow species. 7 magnificent species that went extinct in 2019:

• Sumatran Rhino. ...
• Chinese paddlefish. ...
• Yangtze giant softshell turtle. ...
• Indian Cheetah. ...
• Spix Macaw. ...
• Catarina Pupfish. ...
• Indochinese tiger.


----------



## mikeh375

NoCoPilot said:


> As Ellie's dad says, "If it's just us, that seems like an awful waste of space."


...love that film and book. Alan Silvestri wrote a fine score for it too. The dedication to Sagan at the end always chokes me up.


----------



## eljr

Flamme said:


> Some sceptics argue on why there is no MORE ufo cases, landings and sightings in general...They didnt think that ''maybe'' the aliens are just very far away even with supreme technology and can only appear in like one decade or century like we can go to moon, like in this stage its almost undoable again...


as good a theory as any


----------



## Dan Ante

Has anyone read “Chariots of the Gods” by Erich von Däniken it is very interesting in that recordings from history can be a guide to extra terrestrial visits. Noah’s Ark could be a clue that global warming is nothing new, just a thought that’s all.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Dan Ante said:


> Has anyone read "Chariots of the Gods" by Erich von Däniken it is very interesting in that recordings from history can be a guide to extra terrestrial visits. Noah's Ark could be a clue that global warming is nothing new, just a thought that's all.


Shirley, you jest.


----------



## Flamme

eljr said:


> as good a theory as any


But when they do appear they have some crazy ultra science gadgets that leave us with jaws dropped down...Remember reading about a case from SSSR win 50s or 60s...A giant Ufo entered the russian territory from the south...Itt flew at a crazy speed towards Mosocw...When it came in the evening it just stopped in the place, without a sweat...Then he ''exploded'' in something that looked at first like a Giant Cross and then Like a ''British Flag''...That it disappeard...Because it was above moscow for more than half an hour in times of great scare and panic of nuclear war, the anti-aircraft defense was alarmed and pointed to the skies...What was the meaning of the ''firework'' it produced, we might never know...


----------



## eljr

Flamme said:


> But when they do appear they have some crazy ultra science gadgets that leave us with jaws dropped down...Remember reading about a case from SSSR win 50s or 60s...A giant Ufo entered the russian territory from the south...Itt flew at a crazy speed towards Mosocw...When it came in the evening it just stopped in the place, without a sweat...Then he ''exploded'' in something that looked at first like a Giant Cross and then Like a ''British Flag''...That it disappeard...Because it was above moscow for more than half an hour in times of great scare and panic of nuclear war, the anti-aircraft defense was alarmed and pointed to the skies...What was the meaning of the ''firework'' it produced, we might never know...


a festive grey?


----------



## Flamme

There was another case in about that period...In south of russia when Something appeared in the skies and turned from a ''cigar shape'' int o a giant ''jelly fish'' that spreaded its long and luminescent rays all the way down to earth...Pretty freaky. But the strange quality of those ''objects'' that is present in many cases is how they STOP after running at a Crazy speed...In a maneuver that would tear apart, in thousand pices, any ''earthly flying vehicle''...And then after a hile they proceed again with that crazy acceleration but like in a moment, no stages like in our planes or rockets...That baffles me, if the reports are true...


----------



## joen_cph

Dan Ante said:


> Has anyone read "Chariots of the Gods" by Erich von Däniken it is very interesting in that recordings from history can be a guide to extra terrestrial visits. Noah's Ark could be a clue that global warming is nothing new, just a thought that's all.


Däniken has about the poorest reputation scientifically speaking, that one can get ... it is an amateurish, ignorant jumble, and thus a hoax, but a very profitable one.


----------



## Flamme

I had all the daeniken books...He was really interesting to me as a child but later Idk...


----------



## joen_cph

Yes, when one was very very young and without much knowledge, they were interesting, by very modest means, in the days of poorly illustrated pocket books. Today, it's easy to find tons and tons of better, more qualified knowledge, also via the web.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Flamme said:


> There was another case in about that period...In south of russia when Something appeared in the skies and turned from a ''cigar shape'' int o a giant ''jelly fish'' that spreaded its long and luminescent rays all the way down to earth...Pretty freaky. But the strange quality of those ''objects'' that is present in many cases is how they STOP after running at a Crazy speed...In a maneuver that would tear apart, in thousand pices, any ''earthly flying vehicle''...And then after a hile they proceed again with that crazy acceleration but like in a moment, no stages like in our planes or rockets...That baffles me, if the reports are true...


I grew up in a house that overlooked the Renton airport, a small airport used by private planes and Boeing's production plant. I got to see all sorts of planes approaching the airport, turning toward the runway, and landing. Or taking off, climbing, and then turning away.

Bright lights hovering.... then suddenly turning red or green and zooming away. Two lights traveling in parallel, then suddenly turning into one light and changing direction so fast that it would tear apart any earthly flying vehicle.

I got pretty sceptical of UFO sightings.


----------



## Flamme

Good enough explanation for laymen but for trained, professional pilots who witnessed it hmmm...For instance this case


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Shirley, you jest.


That much rain would cook the planet.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Flamme said:


> Good enough explanation for laymen but for trained, professional pilots who witnessed it hmmm...


Color me unconvinced. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."



Luchesi said:


> That much rain would cook the planet.


It's been proven there isn't enough water in the biosphere to flood the entire earth.


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Color me unconvinced. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
> 
> It's been proven there isn't enough water in the biosphere to flood the entire earth.


"A reservoir of water three times the volume of all the oceans has been discovered deep beneath the Earth's surface. The finding could help explain where Earth's seas came from.
The water is hidden inside a blue rock called ringwoodite that lies 700 kilometres underground in the mantle, the layer of hot rock between Earth's surface and its core.
The huge size of the reservoir throws new light on the origin of Earth's water. Some geologists think water arrived in comets as they struck the planet, but the new discovery supports an alternative idea that the oceans gradually oozed out of the interior of the early Earth."

https://www.newscientist.com/article...s-earths-core/


----------



## NoCoPilot

It's not water (H2O). It's hydroxide (H-O) bound up in crystals of magnesium silicate (Mg2SiO4). That may be a detail that slipped the attention of Andy Coghlan.


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> It's not water (H2O). It's hydroxide (H-O) bound up in crystals of magnesium silicate (Mg2SiO4). That may be a detail that slipped the attention of Andy Coghlan.


read more here

http://www.mantleplumes.org/DiscussionOfDehydrationMelting.html


----------



## Flamme

Some specualte that ufos use earthly water as a ''fuel''thats why they are often seen above bodies of it or even under,usos...


----------



## Strange Magic

Alien UFOs are powered by people's belief in them--that is their fuel. In fact, UFOs are held in existence by that belief, and rely upon it utterly. Should that belief fail, then......


----------



## Flamme

Most are, I guess but there are still that couple of percent of sightings that CANNOT be explained by any sceptical theory...


----------



## NoCoPilot

Therefore.... the most LOGICAL explanation is beings from outer space. Ummm, yeah right.


----------



## Flamme

I'm kinda disappointed though that for almost 100 years humanity didnt invent any truly groundbreaking propulsion system...Its same all, same all and variations...


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Therefore.... the most LOGICAL explanation is beings from outer space. Ummm, yeah right.


Yeah, humans have powers unique in the animal kingdom. Look at all the religious claims in the world. What are your favorites?

I'm still trying to find a religion for myself (so I ask every intelligent person I meet). Many people sincerely try to help me. A new age religion would probably suit my outlook (mesh with my outlook), but those people are quite shy..


----------



## NoCoPilot

For me, religion has to pass the smell test, and most of them don't.

The closest I've come is a sort of Alan Watts / Stephen Jay Gould / Lewis Thomas form of Buddhism, where all life is connected, by dint of evolving from common ancestors, and by virtue of the fact that the biosphere is an interconnected series of feedback loops where if one species gets too prevalent, a predator species increases numbers until a balance is restored. Not only animals, but plants, and plants-and-animals live in a balance that depends on each other to remain 'in whack.' When something or someone gets out of whack, bad things happen.

"Lives of a Cell" and "Endless Forms Most Beautiful" and "Rare Earth" are my bibles.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Flamme said:


> I'm kinda disappointed though that for almost 100 years humanity didnt invent any truly groundbreaking propulsion system...Its same all, same all and variations...


Gravity sucks.

Nevertheless I would offer you the following:
light sails
ram jets
nuclear propulsion
gravity-assist slingshot maneuvers


----------



## Jacck

NoCoPilot said:


> Gravity sucks.
> 
> Nevertheless I would offer you the following:
> light sails
> ram jets
> nuclear propulsion
> gravity-assist slingshot maneuvers


Alcubierre drive


----------



## NoCoPilot

Pfffft. The Alcubierre drive depends on negative mass, an entity not proven -- or expected -- to exist. ∴ not real.

You might as well include:
anti-gravity boots


----------



## Flamme

https://www.military.com/video/airc...aurora-anti-gravity-spacecrafts/2860314511001
Seems far fetched?


----------



## Strange Magic

Magnetic Levitation (maglev) trains are fairly cutting-edge realizations of existing technologies. Plus our old friend Elon Musk is perfecting the pneumatic tube for human transport that banks and department stores have been using since I was a kid.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/engines-equipment/maglev-train.htm


----------



## Flamme

This case alwqys creeped me out...You think its a hoax?


----------



## Strange Magic

"I have a bridge for sale......"


----------



## Jacck

NoCoPilot said:


> Pfffft. The Alcubierre drive depends on negative mass, an entity not proven -- or expected -- to exist. ∴ not real.
> You might as well include:
> anti-gravity boots


negative mass? Not really. Just negative vacuum energy density, which means energy density lower than the baseline. And that exists in nature, for example in the Casimir effect which was measured experimentally.


----------



## Jacck

I wish I could go back to the days I studied physics and had a better grasp of those things than I have now (I have forgotten much). I remember how I was blown away by the fact, that the energy of the vacuum is in fact not zero (although it is called zero-point energy) and is the best candidate for the cosmological constant/dark energy. The vacuum zero-point energy reintroduced aether back to physics, but unlike the actual aether, it is Lorentz invariant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy


----------



## NoCoPilot

Jacck said:


> negative mass? Not really. Just negative vacuum energy density, which means energy density lower than the baseline. And that exists in nature, for example in the Casimir effect which was measured experimentally.


"Energy density lower than the baseline" and the baseline here is an absolute vacuum. Yes, negative energy" has not been proven to exist. The Casimir effect is not the same thing at all.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Jacck said:


> I wish I could go back to the days I studied physics and had a better grasp of those things than I have now (I have forgotten much). I remember how I was blown away by the fact, that the energy of the vacuum is in fact not zero (although it is called zero-point energy) and is the best candidate for the cosmological constant/dark energy. The vacuum zero-point energy reintroduced aether back to physics, but unlike the actual aether, it is Lorentz invariant
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy


As I visualize vacuum energy (and caveat: I am not a physicist!) it is the winking into existence of matter and anti-matter, simultaneously, which then recombine almost instantaneously and disappear again. It is said this was the origin of The Big Bang, except for some (unknown) reason matter outnumbered anti-matter by something like 0.00071%, causing everything we see around us in the universe.

I just read "One World or None At All," a 1946 treatise by the Manhattan Project scientists emphasizing the need for international control of atomic energy. The amount of energy bound up in matter is pretty unimaginable. In theory at least this energy can be released from any matter, not just the breakdown of U-235 or Plutonium. When you factor in how much matter there is in the universe, and what that potential energy equivalent is, it fairly boggles the mind.

All this from a quantum vacuum fluctuation?


----------



## Jacck

NoCoPilot said:


> "Energy density lower than the baseline" and the baseline here is an absolute vacuum. Yes, negative energy" has not been proven to exist. The Casimir effect is not the same thing at all.


the baseline is not zero, read my post #269. In fact, vaccum is full of energy. We call the base state zero-point energy, but it is in fact not zero. And any drops of energy below this baseline would appear as negative mass, the Casimir effect is proof that the energy can go below the base state. There are far more abstract and contentious things in physics than this.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

I've had experience with UFO's ; little ones . Yes , they are intelligent and independent . They can touch a person , and in space flying about may speak a language of geometry with dance . An uprising spiral is one word . I suppose they may gather together into a light that appears large - whether an orb or a disc . Sometimes I encounter another person with similar experience . It's always with shyness . We don't know much and not very quickly . Such patience is scientific .


----------



## joen_cph

Tikoo Tuba said:


> I've had experience with UFO's ; little ones . Yes , they are intelligent and independent . They can touch a person , and in space flying about may speak a language of geometry with dance . An uprising spiral is one word . I suppose they may gather together into a light that appears large - whether an orb or a disc . Sometimes I encounter another person with similar experience . It's always with shyness . We don't know much and not very quickly . Such patience is scientific .


I hear they like tiny cookies from booths or shops, discreetly snapping some when staff is out or looks the other way. They never leave traces or any rubbish. But they are too clever to be caught, if one consciously tries to in that way.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Are they magically delicious?


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

NoCoPilot said:


> Are they magically delicious?


Well , one can appear in the kitchen .


----------



## Luchesi

Tikoo Tuba said:


> I've had experience with UFO's ; little ones . Yes , they are intelligent and independent . They can touch a person , and in space flying about may speak a language of geometry with dance . An uprising spiral is one word . I suppose they may gather together into a light that appears large - whether an orb or a disc . Sometimes I encounter another person with similar experience . It's always with shyness . We don't know much and not very quickly . Such patience is scientific .


There's a lot of reports of angels from medieval times. Read them. It tells a lot about manipulative authorities back then. Of course, there was no organized constabulary. Domestic peace needed a new chapter of fear-mongering. I guess it was effective, for the most part. Womenfolk encouraged it, which makes sense.. considering their plight.


----------



## NoCoPilot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies


----------



## Dan Ante

The only ones that I have experienced are the Botels they somehow find their way into wine bottles always red and make their appearance as the last drop is consumed, they are very friendly and usually invite me to open another bottle to meet their families.


----------



## joen_cph

NoCoPilot said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies


Though there are explanations, it's still strange, how Conan Doyle became so much involved. I have a copy of his book on them, "The Coming of the Fairies".
https://www.amazon.com/Coming-Fairies-Arthur-Conan-Doyle/dp/1533054576


----------



## Dan Ante

NoCoPilot said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies


I am a Fairy my name is Nuff, fair enough


----------



## NoCoPilot

Sho'.........


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

NoCoPilot said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies


I believe if the Faerie were realistically depicted the girl would be looking at a butterfly . The faerie spark rides about on butterflies in play . When this happens , the butterfly may speak with loving geometry . It's identifiable . The person who they speak to (dance for) is identifiable to them as peaceful in nature and aware .

Can the faerie be seen upon the butterfly ? No . It has entered the butterfly brain .


----------



## Phil loves classical

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-capture-ufo-sightings-it-calls-them-n1056201

Based on the one that is rotating, it seems there isn't a normal propulsion system if any, and is not using lift from the air. They do seem to give off heat since they are picked up on the IR view in the first instance. Fascinating stuff!


----------



## Flamme

Funny case but if true...The solid light concept is mind-blowing!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_light


----------



## Bwv 1080




----------



## Flamme

This sounds legit tho...


----------



## NoCoPilot

Flamme said:


> This sounds legit tho...


It does? To whom?


----------



## Dan Ante

.................................................


----------



## Flamme

Powers to be hide the truth. It figures!


----------



## KenOC

"On April 25, 2013, at approximately 2120, an unknown aerial object at low altitude flew across Rafael Hernandez airport at Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. The object did not have a squawking transponder signal to alert air traffic control nor was their any communication with the tower, posing a dangerous situation with inbound and outbound air traffic. A U.S. Customs and Border Protection aircraft happened to be nearby and was able to capture on infrared video." And a very interesting video it is. Some say a seagull, others a rogue weather balloon. But it's obviously neither…


----------



## Flamme

Yeah. Thats a smoking gun. We needed.


----------



## joen_cph

Time passes quickly these days, but back in 2013, I'm sure some people had access to for example not too simple drones as well.
Interesting, that when it goes above the cars, it's possible to get a reasonable impression of the size of it (a good deal smaller than a car).


----------



## Strange Magic

I vote bird in bullet-like glide path.


----------



## Jacck

I'm an astronomer and I think aliens may be out there - but UFO sightings aren't persuasive
https://theconversation.com/im-an-a...ere-but-ufo-sightings-arent-persuasive-150498


----------



## Phil loves classical

^ I have no doubt there is intelligent life out there, but view the probability of alien UFO's on Earth as unlikely. Firstly they can't be manned (or aliened), since whatever material they compose of (even other than carbon) would have decayed by the time they reach Earth. Or else a spacecraft couldn't hold the food to sustain a family of aliens that keeps reproducing to get this far. If it was unmanned, to communicate with and control a satellite spacecraft a minimum of 20 light years away? Also it would have to be fusion powered. Scientists have been saying fusion power was just around the corner for decades. To actually harness the energy to drive a UFO might be impossible. Feel free to prove my points wrong.


----------



## Dim7

Phil loves classical said:


> ^ I have no doubt there is intelligent life out there, but view the probability of alien UFO's on Earth as unlikely. Firstly they can't be manned (or aliened), since whatever material they compose of (even other than carbon) would have decayed by the time they reach Earth. Or else a spacecraft couldn't hold the food to sustain a family of aliens that keeps reproducing to get this far. If it was unmanned, to communicate with and control a satellite spacecraft a minimum of 20 light years away? Also it would have to be fusion powered. Scientists have been saying fusion power was just around the corner for decades. To actually harness the energy to drive a UFO might be impossible. Feel free to prove my points wrong.


I think you perhaps overestimate the probability of intelligent life, depending on what you mean by "out there". If we include the universe outside our cosmological horizon, since that could be arbitrarily huge or even infinite, I would agree, but the probability of intelligent life per star system, galaxy, galaxy cluster or even a Hubble volume could also be arbitrarily low as long as the whole universe (including stuff beyond the observable part) is big enough. We don't really have a clue about how likely abiogenesis is, to give the most obvious example.

On the other hand I think you underestimate the capabilities of potential alien civilizations. Alien civilizations that could visit us would obviously be more advanced than us technologically. But not just that - it would be an odd coincidence if they were "only" thousand years ahead of us, for instance. Thousand years is nothing compared to the age of the Universe, so it would be a bit like a randomly and blindly selected person from the whole population of Earth having the same age and birthday as you. But even thousand years is a lot of time for technological progress, for instance it would be considered a very pessimistic estimate for the time left until the development human level artificial intelligence. So the mind just boggles at what they might be capable of, even assuming whatever we think as fundamental constraints of physics (such as impossibility of faster than light travel) are indeed just that and don't have any loopholes. Personally, I find the idea of intelligent aliens sticking to their biological form for millions of years very very silly. Surely such an advanced civilization would have either optimized themselves far beyond their original biological constraints, or be a species of machine intelligence that took over the biological aliens that developed them. In either case, the distinction between "unmanned" and "manned" spacecraft would probably be meaningless when talking about such machine civilizations.

My reason for being skeptical about UFOs is that the Universe just looks too damn dead. Intelligence and life, while emerging from and following physics just like dead matter, is too complex to be practically subject to being analyzed by mere physical laws. Yet astronomers have surprisingly easy time understanding the cosmos without needing to invoke intelligence arranging it into more complex structures. It really just looks like dead stuff following laws of physics, rather than aliens engaging in grandiose projects of astro-engineering such as colonizing galaxies and building Dyson spheres around all of their stars.


----------



## NoCoPilot

The speed of light is a constant in our universe, so far as we know.

That limits the scope of any interstellar travel to a few light years at the very outside.

* Proxima Centauri is 4.2441 ly away
* Bernard's Star is 5.9577 ly
* Luhman-16 is 6.5029 ly
* Wolf-359 is 7.856 ly
* Lalande-21185 is 8.307 ly
* Sirius is 8.659 ly
* Luyten-726-8 is 8.791 ly
* Ross-154 is 9.7035 ly

Everything else is more than 10 light years away. There _MAY_ be intelligent life somewhere in the universe... but there's no way we could ever communicate with it, much less visit or have them visit us.

Hell, we have sentient beings right here on Earth we can't communicate with, and they share the majority of their genes with us and breathe oxygen and are carbon-based.


----------



## Dim7

NoCoPilot said:


> The speed of light is a constant in our universe, so far as we know.
> 
> That limits the scope of any interstellar travel to a few light years at the very outside.
> 
> * Proxima Centauri is 4.2441 ly away
> * Bernard's Star is 5.9577 ly
> * Luhman-16 is 6.5029 ly
> * Wolf-359 is 7.856 ly
> * Lalande-21185 is 8.307 ly
> * Sirius is 8.659 ly
> * Luyten-726-8 is 8.791 ly
> * Ross-154 is 9.7035 ly
> 
> Everything else is more than 10 light years away. There _MAY_ be intelligent life somewhere in the universe... but there's no way we could ever communicate with it, much less visit or have them visit us.
> 
> Hell, we have sentient beings right here on Earth we can't communicate with, and they share the majority of their genes with us and breathe oxygen and are carbon-based.


You're thinking in terms of time scales that are reasonable for humans with our current technology. That limitation would probably not apply to a lot of of intelligent aliens, even if the speed limit itself does, as I argued in the post above.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Dim7 said:


> I think you perhaps overestimate the probability of intelligent life, depending on what you mean by "out there". If we include the universe outside our cosmological horizon, since that could be arbitrarily huge or even infinite, I would agree, but the probability of intelligent life per star system, galaxy, galaxy cluster or even a Hubble volume could also be arbitrarily low as long as the whole universe (including stuff beyond the observable part) is big enough. We don't really have a clue about how likely abiogenesis is, to give the most obvious example.
> 
> On the other hand I think you underestimate the capabilities of potential alien civilizations. Alien civilizations that could visit us would obviously be more advanced than us technologically. But not just that - it would be an odd coincidence if they were "only" thousand years ahead of us, for instance. Thousand years is nothing compared to the age of the Universe, so it would be a bit like a randomly and blindly selected person from the whole population of Earth having the same age and birthday as you. But even thousand years is a lot of time for technological progress, for instance it would be considered a very pessimistic estimate for the time left until the development human level artificial intelligence. So the mind just boggles at what they might be capable of, even assuming whatever we think as fundamental constraints of physics (*such as impossibility of faster than light trave*l) are indeed just that and don't have any loopholes. Personally, I find the idea of intelligent aliens sticking to their biological form for millions of years very very silly. Surely such an advanced civilization would have either optimized themselves far beyond their original biological constraints, or be a species of machine intelligence that took over the biological aliens that developed them. In either case, the distinction between "unmanned" and "manned" spacecraft would probably be meaningless when talking about such machine civilizations.
> 
> My reason for being skeptical about UFOs is that the Universe just looks too damn dead. Intelligence and life, while emerging from and following physics just like dead matter, is too complex to be practically subject to being analyzed by mere physical laws. Yet astronomers have surprisingly easy time understanding the cosmos without needing to invoke intelligence arranging it into more complex structures. It really just looks like dead stuff following laws of physics, rather than aliens engaging in grandiose projects of astro-engineering such as colonizing galaxies and building Dyson spheres around all of their stars.


I believe the laws of physics would apply to all alien beings, and it be impossible to travel beyond the speed of light. I believe it was proven that time, though, isn't uniform throughout space. When I let my imagination go wild I can imagine crazy aliens and starships, but when I think of practical limits, I think they are just as limited as we may be, even if they are far more advanced. The possibility of us visiting other solar systems is orders of magnitude beyond our capability, no matter how advanced we become.

Another idea is if there is one alien form or civilization that visited us, why not 2 or more? And when there are 2 or more civilizations of different aliens, then they must eventually come to war with each other, and we haven't seen any signs of that, at least not yet.


----------



## Flamme

NoCoPilot said:


> The speed of light is a constant in our universe, so far as we know.
> 
> That limits the scope of any interstellar travel to a few light years at the very outside.
> 
> * Proxima Centauri is 4.2441 ly away
> * Bernard's Star is 5.9577 ly
> * Luhman-16 is 6.5029 ly
> * Wolf-359 is 7.856 ly
> * Lalande-21185 is 8.307 ly
> * Sirius is 8.659 ly
> * Luyten-726-8 is 8.791 ly
> * Ross-154 is 9.7035 ly
> 
> Everything else is more than 10 light years away. There _MAY_ be intelligent life somewhere in the universe... but there's no way we could ever communicate with it, much less visit or have them visit us.
> 
> Hell, we have sentient beings right here on Earth we can't communicate with, and they share the majority of their genes with us and breathe oxygen and are carbon-based.


What about ''Zeta Reticuli''. Because it is on the map drawn by ''abduction victim'' Betty Hill as shown by ''aliens'' as a place of their origin


__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/390898442626695244/








The original drawing.


----------



## Luchesi

Dim7 said:


> You're thinking in terms of time scales that are reasonable for humans with our current technology. That limitation would probably not apply to a lot of of intelligent aliens, even if the speed limit itself does, as I argued in the post above.


Yes, if they wanted to explore and utilize the Galaxy it would take about 1 million years in an armada of multi-generational ships. This might be the inevitable result across all manipulative intelligences. But first they must evolve -- and survive the early years.

The universe is quite young and in another few billion years it might become exciting and crowded (and dangerous).

I like the clever idea that if we do find the remnants of a civilization out there, that will mean our doom, because there's a great filter in our future.


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> "On April 25, 2013, at approximately 2120, an unknown aerial object at low altitude flew across Rafael Hernandez airport at Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. The object did not have a squawking transponder signal to alert air traffic control nor was their any communication with the tower, posing a dangerous situation with inbound and outbound air traffic. A U.S. Customs and Border Protection aircraft happened to be nearby and was able to capture on infrared video." And a very interesting video it is. Some say a seagull, others a rogue weather balloon. But it's obviously neither…


Could be any number of things, including some sort of model airplane or drone. There are people who buy/build scale model jet planes and fly them. Obviously they're not supposed to fly them anywhere near an airport.


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> What about ''Zeta Reticuli''. Because it is on the map drawn by ''abduction victim'' Betty Hill as shown by ''aliens'' as a place of their origin
> 
> 
> __ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/390898442626695244/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The original drawing.


Remember that the stars had to be 'fitted' to this constellation. Betty Hill didn't know which constellation would fit. Another person found it by flipping axes etc. 
But later research determined that many of these stars are much more distant than what was believed in the 1960s.

My memory of this might be wrong..


----------



## Flamme

Luchesi said:


> Yes, if they wanted to explore and utilize the Galaxy it would take about 1 million years in an armada of multi-generational ships. This might be the inevitable result across all manipulative intelligences. But first they must evolve -- and survive the early years.
> 
> The universe is quite young and in another few billion years it might become exciting and crowded (and dangerous).
> 
> I like the clever idea that if we do find the remnants of a civilization out there, that will mean our doom, because there's a great filter in our future.


Umm but what if they made a...Base...Somewhere far nearer than all those ''far away places''...Heck maybe even down here on earth...Or Water lol...The water makes the mot of the ''Earth'' as we know it and we have no idea what lies on the bottom of our deepest oceans and under antarcticas...Mind you lots of strange crafts are witnessed in and above bodies or water some were even chased by powerful submarines of world powers in the ''Cold war'' to no avail, much like the ufo ''dogfights'' in the air...


----------



## KenOC

Baron Scarpia said:


> Could be any number of things, including some sort of model airplane or drone. There are people who buy/build scale model jet planes and fly them. Obviously they're not supposed to fly them anywhere near an airport.


I'm not sure of an alternate explanation, but note that (1) the apparent distance covered seems well beyond the range of any radio control apparatus commonly used by amateurs, and (2) the movie was taken in the infrared, well after dark, and it's hard to see how an assumed operator could control such a small and speedy craft at such low altitude and over such a distance when he couldn't see it.


----------



## Flamme

KenOC said:


> "On April 25, 2013, at approximately 2120, an unknown aerial object at low altitude flew across Rafael Hernandez airport at Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. The object did not have a squawking transponder signal to alert air traffic control nor was their any communication with the tower, posing a dangerous situation with inbound and outbound air traffic. A U.S. Customs and Border Protection aircraft happened to be nearby and was able to capture on infrared video." And a very interesting video it is. Some say a seagull, others a rogue weather balloon. But it's obviously neither…


This is legit creepy bruh...Because it looks so real...At first it looked like a bird but I never so such a fast one, then it turned upside down...Woow


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

A commonly reported sighting is the black-triangle with 3 lights . I have heard one such account personally from a man who helps us seasonally with the farm-work . He and a friend had witnessed this together . He referred to it as a craft . I asked him one question - are you certain the blackness between the lights was solid ? He looked away , bowed his head , and said no .


----------



## NoCoPilot

Dim7 said:


> You're thinking in terms of time scales that are reasonable for humans with our current technology. That limitation would probably not apply to a lot of of intelligent aliens, even if the speed limit itself does, as I argued in the post above.


So, aliens this advanced would be interested in us... why? Possible food source?


----------



## NoCoPilot

Tikoo Tuba said:


> A commonly reported sighting is the black-triangle with 3 lights . I have heard one such account personally from a man who helps us seasonally with the farm-work . He and a friend had witnessed this together . He referred to it as a craft . I asked him one question - are you certain the blackness between the lights was solid ? He looked away , bowed his head , and said no .


................................


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> So, aliens this advanced would be interested in us... why? Possible food source?


This is a jewel of a planet. And beyond that, they might want one with some infrastructure already built.


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> Umm but what if they made a...Base...Somewhere far nearer than all those ''far away places''...Heck maybe even down here on earth...Or Water lol...The water makes the mot of the ''Earth'' as we know it and we have no idea what lies on the bottom of our deepest oceans and under antarcticas...Mind you lots of strange crafts are witnessed in and above bodies or water some were even chased by powerful submarines of world powers in the ''Cold war'' to no avail, much like the ufo ''dogfights'' in the air...


I think of the odds as one in a thousand galaxies -- or on the extreme other end of favorable ranges, one per galaxy.

If it's closer to one per averaged-sized galaxy then there could be 3 to 4 in our galaxy. Quite distantly separated, but they still need to be in the favorable parts of the galaxy (like we are).


----------



## Guest

Luchesi said:


> This is a jewel of a planet. And beyond that, they might want one with some infrastructure already built.


Infastructure? They came from across the galaxy and they want to make sure there is a Starbucks when they arrive?


----------



## Guest

KenOC said:


> I'm not sure of an alternate explanation, but note that (1) the apparent distance covered seems well beyond the range of any radio control apparatus commonly used by amateurs, and (2) the movie was taken in the infrared, well after dark, and it's hard to see how an assumed operator could control such a small and speedy craft at such low altitude and over such a distance when he couldn't see it.


Then a military drone or aircraft. It could also be a lot closer to the camera than assumed, meaning it would appear to be going faster than it is.


----------



## KenOC

Baron Scarpia said:


> Then a military drone or aircraft. It could also be a lot closer to the camera than assumed, meaning it would appear to be going faster than it is.


My best guess would be a military project, though why they should be testing it over a civilian airport in Puerto Rico is a question that raises the eyebrows an inch or two. Ultra-low level high speed weapons delivery systems may be a thing. How would you shoot them down?


----------



## Luchesi

Baron Scarpia said:


> Infastructure? They came from across the galaxy and they want to make sure there is a Starbucks when they arrive?


If they have solved the distance problem and they can choose among the 0 scale tech-civs. Why not a planet with highways, supercomputers, wiring, dams, plumbing, buildings, satellites, mining operations, few large predators, radio telescopes?


----------



## Flamme

Luchesi said:


> I think of the odds as one in a thousand galaxies -- or on the extreme other end of favorable ranges, one per galaxy.
> 
> If it's closer to one per averaged-sized galaxy then there could be 3 to 4 in our galaxy. Quite distantly separated, but they still need to be in the favorable parts of the galaxy (like we are).


I read somehwere that, in previous decades, the number of sightings increased when some of the ''neighboring'' planets, Mars was mentioned especially, were the closest to Earth...Might be a coincidence or there is a bit of truth in those old stories about ''martian invaders''.


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> I read somehwere that, in previous decades, the number of sightings increased when some of the ''neighboring'' planets, Mars was mentioned especially, were the closest to Earth...Might be a coincidence or there is a bit of truth in those old stories about ''martian invaders''.


aphelion and perihelion distances are 1.6660 and 1.3814 AU.

Well, about a 21 percent difference. I didn't realize it was so much.


----------



## Guest

Luchesi said:


> If they have solved the distance problem and they can choose among the 0 scale tech-civs. Why not a planet with highways, supercomputers, wiring, dams, plumbing, buildings, satellites, mining operations, few large predators, radio telescopes?


You're kidding right? To a civilization capable of interstellar travel earth civilization would be like anthills.


----------



## Luchesi

Baron Scarpia said:


> You're kidding right? To a civilization capable of interstellar travel earth civilization would be like anthills.


I would think they would like to have a planet full of stuff, compared to a planet on the caveman level.

Of course if interstellar travel is difficult for them and very expensive, they'll try to find the nearest planet with an 02 signature.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> This is a jewel of a planet. And beyond that, they might want one with some infrastructure already built. Why not a planet with highways, supercomputers, wiring, dams, plumbing, buildings, satellites, mining operations, few large predators, radio telescopes?


Oh yeah. They've come 25 light years to harvest our water treatment plants and Macbooks 

"Let's put a Windows virus in their computers!" - Will Smith


----------



## joen_cph

Trending in the news. This is fun; it has it all: alien base on Mars, Galactic Federation, secret contacts ...

https://www.jpost.com/omg/former-is...f-says-aliens-exist-humanity-not-ready-651405
https://www.themarysue.com/galactic-federation/
https://www.tmz.com/2020/12/07/isra...s-exist-galactic-federation-humans-not-ready/

Also: "The Zoo Hypothesis":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Oh yeah. They've come 25 light years to harvest our water treatment plants and Macbooks
> 
> "Let's put a Windows virus in their computers!" - Will Smith


After they've vaporized all of us humans they might want to live here, some of them. They brought a lot of building supplies?

They have Star Trek replicators? I wonder how advanced you think these aliens would be to take part in this type of violent operation?


----------



## KenOC

The aliens might keep us around for food, pets, amusement, whatever. We wouldn't mind because we'd never know it was happening.


----------



## Dan Ante

KenOC said:


> The aliens might keep us around for food, pets, amusement, whatever. We wouldn't mind because we'd never know it was happening.


Ken, just had a message from schruma if you say any more she will vaporise you…


----------



## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> The aliens might keep us around for food, pets, amusement, whatever. We wouldn't mind because we'd never know it was happening.


Yes, they might've been with us for a million years, and they'll be with us as we explore other star systems, like we're their bumbling but entertaining canines out for a run, getting into predicaments.

No, I think we're top of the food chain in this galaxy. We have an amazingly improbable history. We're amazing!


----------



## KenOC

Luchesi said:


> ...No, I think we're top of the food chain in this galaxy. We have an amazingly improbable history. We're amazing!


A point of view unsurprising to our alien masters, since they designed it that way.


----------



## Dan Ante

It is amazing how the general view has changed from ‘There are so many stars that have habitable planets that their must be other life out there’ to what I saw on TV a couple of days ago from Brian Cox he said ‘ we know there are at least 10,000 Suns the same as ours just in our little corner of the Galaxy but the chances that life evolved on any of their planets is just about zero’ so it is almost certain that we are alone.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Dan Ante said:


> It is amazing how the general view has changed from 'There are so many stars that have habitable planets that their must be other life out there' to what I saw on TV a couple of days ago from Brian Cox he said ' we know there are at least 10,000 Suns the same as ours just in our little corner of the Galaxy but the chances that life evolved on any of their planets is just about zero' so it is almost certain that we are alone.


_*Star Trek*_ is no longer on the air.


----------



## Luchesi

Dan Ante said:


> It is amazing how the general view has changed from 'There are so many stars that have habitable planets that their must be other life out there' to what I saw on TV a couple of days ago from Brian Cox he said ' we know there are at least 10,000 Suns the same as ours just in our little corner of the Galaxy but the chances that life evolved on any of their planets is just about zero' so it is almost certain that we are alone.


Favorable conditions must last for billions of years. How does that happen?


----------



## KenOC

A surprising statement, given the source.



> No one can say for certain what UFOs actually are, but a former director of the CIA (John Brennan) said some of the recently unexplained phenomenon "might ... constitute a different form of life."
> 
> "... I think some of the phenomena we're going to be seeing continues to be unexplained and might, in fact, be some type of phenomenon that is the result of something that we don't yet understand and that could involve some type of activity that some might say constitutes a different form of life," Brennan said, according to a transcript of the podcast.


----------



## Dan Ante

Better than saying "The Chinese/Russians have one up on us"


----------



## Flamme

I, for one, WELCOME OUR ALIEN OVERLORDS.


----------



## Roger Knox

According to today's _Globe and Mail_, UFO sightings are up in 2020:

"Sightings worldwide grew by 42 per cent between January and September compared to last year. The picture in Canada is similar: The Mutual UFO Network, for instance, logged 276 Canadian reports between January and September -- a 29-per-cent increase."

Another item for the annals of 2020.


----------



## joen_cph

The same can btw be said about the popularity of conspiracy theories generally.


----------



## Roger Knox

joen_cph said:


> The same can btw be said about the popularity of conspiracy theories generally.


You never know who the aliens might be in cahoots with. But really, they seem like shrinking violets to me. Isn't it time they landed, got on the media circuit, married actors, made tons on investments, bought large mansions in California with landing pads?


----------



## joen_cph

Illuminati, Q, 5G, UFOs, Hollow Earth, Flat Earth, Moon Landing Hoax, Chemtrails, Pizzagate, etc. ... it's so hard to choose between all these attractive options. 

But the UFO stuff just has more of almost everything ...


----------



## mikeh375

joen_cph said:


> Illuminati, Q, 5G, UFOs, Hollow Earth, Flat Earth, Moon Landing Hoax, Chemtrails, Pizzagate, etc. ... it's so hard to choose between all these attractive options.
> 
> But the UFO stuff just has more of almost everything ...


I enjoy the 'hollow moon harbouring an alien base' hypothesis for some light relief. This is the preferred interpretation of NASA's seismic readings because tectonic activity is just too boring.....


----------



## Jacck

mikeh375 said:


> I enjoy the 'hollow moon harbouring an alien base' hypothesis for some light relief. This is the preferred interpretation of NASA's seismic readings because tectonic activity is just too boring.....


Apollo-mission Astronauts were warned off the Moon after they discovered an alien base on the far side of the moon. They is why they never returned and the Apollo missions were discontinued.


----------



## mikeh375

Jacck said:


> Apollo-mission Astronauts were warned off the Moon after they discovered an alien base on the far side of the moon. They is why they never returned and the Apollo missions were discontinued.


...yes, so the story goes. There is a controversial and seemingly unguarded photo of a NASA specialist in his office that also shows some hi-res photographs of the moon's surface on his desk. Close ups reveal what looks like a structure. There is also testimony that some people saw hi res pictures of structures on the moon at NASA. I tried to find that specific photo but couldn't so here's something else allegedly from the moon.


----------



## Flamme

Me thinks its the NAZIS...'Avin moon bases and melting polar caps n sheet...


----------



## KenOC

Flamme said:


> Me thinks its the NAZIS...'Avin moon bases and melting polar caps n sheet...


That's actually a real thing. A documentary film was made about it in 2012.


----------



## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> ...yes, so the story goes. There is a controversial and seemingly unguarded photo of a NASA specialist in his office that also shows some hi-res photographs of the moon's surface on his desk. Close ups reveal what looks like a structure. There is also testimony that some people saw hi res pictures of structures on the moon at NASA. I tried to find that specific photo but couldn't so here's something else allegedly from the moon.
> 
> View attachment 148068


Do the conspiracists ever say why the government would hide these findings? I've been on a lot of government projects and parts of them were secret (not top secret), but none of the secrecy was for controlling the man-on-the-street or Joe sixpack. Many of them had questionable classifications which were holdovers from decades before.


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> Do the conspiracists ever say why the government would hide these findings? I've been on a lot of government projects and parts of them were secret (not top secret), but none of the secrecy was for controlling the man-on-the-street or Joe sixpack. Many of them had questionable classifications which were holdovers from decades before.


Good points. And this may be a dumb question, but how is it that the aliens know how to keep their presence tantalizingly out of the reach of hard evidence, while at the same time they provide hints and clues that sustain their media presence with late-night radio, the tabloid press, books, celebrity publicity, internet web sites and networks, (including _this_ thread ...), etc., etc.?


----------



## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> Good points. And this may be a dumb question, but how is it that the aliens know how to keep their presence tantalizingly out of the reach of hard evidence, while at the same time they provide hints and clues that sustain their media presence with late-night radio, the tabloid press, books, celebrity publicity, internet web sites and networks, (including _this_ thread ...), etc., etc.?


Yes, it's because so many times hucksters have manufactured evidence and then been found out. Of course this might be a powerful aliens' strategy to keep themselves hidden?


----------



## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> Yes, it's because so many times hucksters have manufactured evidence and then been found out. Of course this might be a powerful aliens' strategy to keep themselves hidden?


It's much simpler than that.

Conspiracy theorists, by and large, use conspiracy theories to promote the idea that *they are smarter than the average citizen*, that only they can interpret clues that nobody else is smart enough to piece together. The rest of us are too dumb to understand that crop circles cannot be some prat's prank, because they show knowledge of advanced mathematics. That UFO sightings are suppressed by the Air Force because they don't want the general populace to know the truth about alien mind control tactics, about alien technology used to infiltrate your dreams, about aliens trying to steal your precious bodily fluids. General Buck Turgidson is the only one in the room with the brains to understand what we're up against.


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> It's much simpler than that.
> 
> Conspiracy theorists, by and large, use conspiracy theories to promote the idea that *they are smarter than the average citizen*, that only they can interpret clues that nobody else is smart enough to piece together. The rest of us are too dumb to understand that crop circles cannot be some prat's prank, because they show knowledge of advanced mathematics. That UFO sightings are suppressed by the Air Force because they don't want the general populace to know the truth about alien mind control tactics, about alien technology used to infiltrate your dreams, about aliens trying to steal your precious bodily fluids. General Buck Turgidson is the only one in the room with the brains to understand what we're up against.


As admirers of science we need to keep our open minds. It's possible that the aliens are controlling everything from our governments to our minds to our genetics to our future plans. In fact we might be limited to this solar system when we try to expand outward. I mean how many logical reasons are there for aliens to come all this way?
Of course if intelligent (manipulative) life is very rare like I think it is, if they found us they might want to study everything about us. We're one discovery in 10 average-sized galaxies!


----------



## WNvXXT

A couple of pieces of the puzzle fell into place after watching these - both were on Amazon Prime, but the first is now a $4.99 HD rental:

The Phenomenon (2020)

Lights in the Sky (2020)


----------



## mikeh375

Luchesi said:


> Do the conspiracists ever say why the government would hide these findings? I've been on a lot of government projects and parts of them were secret (not top secret), but none of the secrecy was for controlling the man-on-the-street or Joe sixpack. Many of them had questionable classifications which were holdovers from decades before.


Undoubtedly the secrecy is to avoid panic, spare religion, allow aliens to keep abducting people or develop their taste for cows ars*s (mutilations), in exchange for technology and any other scenario that can be thought of in order to sustain belief. Actually despite my scepticism there are events and oddities that seem to defy ridicule and do keep me interested in this. So I do have an open mind, albeit one that's tempered with a bullsh** detector on maximum setting.

When I was working, I met Timothy Good a few times in recording sessions. (https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Timothy-Good/172299332)
He was a violinist with the L.S.O. and during world tours, would research alleged local sitings wherever he was. He gave me one of his books, 'Above Top Secret' which I found to be a very convincing read, as I did the sequel, 'Beyond Top Secret'. He struck me as sincere and committed and his list of military and governmental interviewees is impressive.


----------



## mikeh375

WNvXXT said:


> A couple of pieces of the puzzle fell into place after watching these - both were on Amazon Prime, but the first is now a $4.99 HD rental:
> 
> The Phenomenon (2020)
> 
> Lights in the Sky (2020)


I watched 'The Phenomenon' a while back too. The case of the mass sighting at a school in Africa was interesting. A good film.


----------



## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> Undoubtedly the secrecy is to avoid panic, spare religion, allow aliens to keep abducting people or develop their taste for cows ars*s (mutilations), in exchange for technology and any other scenario that can be thought of in order to sustain belief. Actually despite my scepticism there are events and oddities that seem to defy ridicule and do keep me interested in this. So I do have an open mind, albeit one that's tempered with a bullsh** detector on maximum setting.
> 
> When I was working, I met Timothy Good a few times in recording sessions. (https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Timothy-Good/172299332)
> He was a violinist with the L.S.O. and during world tours, would research alleged local sitings wherever he was. He gave me one of his books, 'Above Top Secret' which I found to be a very convincing read, as I did the sequel, 'Beyond Top Secret'. He struck me as sincere and committed and his list of military and governmental interviewees is impressive.


Yes, that pretty much well sums it up. I have known two professional, accomplished people who really believe in them. And I know a few others who are on the fence. I've never heard a convincing argument. They just repeat the explanations they've heard and fit them with their own personal UFO encounters, so to speak. 
It seems to me to be a psychological refuge for troubled people. One of the guys who really believes in them had just lost his wife and he was definitely troubled, living alone for the first time in 40 years. But otherwise he was very intelligent and a highly educated person. 
Emotion forces the filling of many of the wounds and gaps in our lives, and it all seems much more convincing to us than to the other people we tell, but when a physicist or a chemist on a million dollar project brings up the subject of his intense experiences - I do stop and listen. In his heightened state he might have thought I agreed with him, but I was just trying to remain neutral.

added;
I think there would be fewer believers if recent information got out there. How rare our Earth is and how rare our Sun is.


----------



## joen_cph

Apparently, US Senate has just now decided that the Pentagon, FBI etc. should make a report and present it to selected politicians, within 180 days, that will disclose more available info about UFOs ...

_"The Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), said in the comment that it "directs the [director of national intelligence], in consultation with the Secretary of Defense and the heads of such other agencies … to submit a report within 180 days of the date of enactment of the Act, to the congressional intelligence and armed services committees on unidentified aerial phenomena ... The report must address "observed airborne objects that have not been identified" and should include a "detailed analysis of unidentified phenomena data collected by: a. geospatial intelligence; b. signals intelligence; c. human intelligence; and d. measurement and signals intelligence," the committee said."
_
Disclaimer though: it's the New York Post ...
https://nypost.com/2020/12/29/covid...medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons


----------



## NoCoPilot

joen_cph said:


> Disclaimer though: it's the New York Post ...


Disclaimer though: it's Marco Rubio ...


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> Apparently, US Senate has just now decided that the Pentagon, FBI etc. should make a report and present it to selected politicians, within 180 days, that will disclose more available info about UFOs ...
> 
> _"The Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), said in the comment that it "directs the [director of national intelligence], in consultation with the Secretary of Defense and the heads of such other agencies … to submit a report within 180 days of the date of enactment of the Act, to the congressional intelligence and armed services committees on unidentified aerial phenomena ... The report must address "observed airborne objects that have not been identified" and should include a "detailed analysis of unidentified phenomena data collected by: a. geospatial intelligence; b. signals intelligence; c. human intelligence; and d. measurement and signals intelligence," the committee said."
> _
> Disclaimer though: it's the New York Post ...
> https://nypost.com/2020/12/29/covid...medium=site buttons&utm_campaign=site buttons


Governments are people too. I worked with launch technicians who worked with the workers on the Roswell incident. The project came out of our building. We still have the photos of the gondola in our entranceway -- along with Joseph Kittinger. The complicated explanation for that mishap fooled a lot of intelligent people. The government functions by one committee after another and it's like a game of telephone when you throw in the urgencies of national security.


----------



## joen_cph

More detailed news coverage, with supplementary angles to the committee story, exists now. Some point to the fact that it's more of a request for further info, than a law, etc.


----------



## Jacck

Obama said that they are controlled by the aliens and cannot reveal anything
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ufos-obama-kimmel_n_6863142

_"The aliens won't let it happen. You'd reveal all their secrets, and they exercise strict control over us," Obama said. "I can't reveal anything." When Kimmel pressed Obama, telling him how Clinton claimed to have looked into government files on UFOs and found nothing, Obama replied, "Well, you know, that's what we're instructed to say."_


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> More detailed news coverage, with supplementary angles to the committee story, exists now. Some point to the fact that it's more of a request for further info, than a law, etc.


A friend of mine worries that we don't want aliens to know that we know anymore than we did decades ago. That could be bad. He works at the Sloan Digital complex in the Sacramento Mountains. It's common sense, I guess. We should be well-behaved specimens. Something different in the galaxy, something worthy of a future.


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> A friend of mine worries that we don't want aliens to know that we know anymore than we did decades ago. That could be bad. He works at the Sloan Digital complex in the Sacramento Mointains. It's common sense, I guess. We should be well-behaved specimens. Something different in the galaxy, something worthy of a future.


the aliens have been observing us for milenia. They are waiting for us to develop higher consciousness and increase the spiritual vibrational frequency of the earth. Only then will we be ready to join the galactic community. Fortunately it looks like it already started
https://www.blogish.net/2020/09/18/earths-natural-vibration-is-changing/


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> the aliens have been observing us for milenia. They are waiting for us to develop higher consciousness and increase the spiritual vibrational frequency of the earth. Only then will we be ready to join the galactic community. Fortunately it looks like it already started
> https://www.blogish.net/2020/09/18/earths-natural-vibration-is-changing/


That's 3 minutes I won't get back. A religious buff combining concepts which are misunderstood within one post, with the enthusiasm of a 12 yr old.


----------



## Jacck

Nikola Tesla's Biographer Claims The Scientist Had Contact With Aliens
https://humansarefree.com/2020/12/nikola-tesla-biographer-contact-with-aliens.html


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> Nikola Tesla's Biographer Claims The Scientist Had Contact With Aliens
> https://humansarefree.com/2020/12/nikola-tesla-biographer-contact-with-aliens.html


Tesla became less and less reliable, but I think in this case he was just wondering about reflections from the dynamic ionospheric layers. He had a bad childhood. His father was fanatical. He left to get way from him, is what I've read.


----------



## joen_cph

Besides, such tales of 'spiritual encounters', one way or the other, were also popular back then, for esoterics, mass media, in science fiction including movies and novels, etc.


----------



## Jacck

joen_cph said:


> Besides, such tales of 'spiritual encounters', one way or the other, were also popular back then, for esoterics, mass media, in science fiction including movies and novels, etc.


channeling was popular in the UFO community. Ashtar Sheran communicates through channeling with his chosen ones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtar_(extraterrestrial_being)


----------



## mikeh375

Luchesi said:


> That's 3 minutes I won't get back. A religious buff combining concepts which are misunderstood within one post, with the enthusiasm of a 12 yr old.


yeah Jacck, you owe me and Luchesi 3 minutes each..... ... utter tosh..


----------



## Jacck

mikeh375 said:


> yeah Jacck, you owe me and Luchesi 3 minutes each..... ... utter tosh..


it is not utter tosh, it is highly scientific. 
https://noc.galacticage.org/Schumann-Resonance/

you see, the Earth has a natural frequency, so does our brain. So by evolving our counsiousness to a higher level of cosmic spirituality, we increase the frequency of our brains, which in turn causes increase in the Earth's frequency and allows the Earth to ascend. 
https://spacetravelinalabama.com/20...eiadian-light-forces-transmissions-10-6-2020/


----------



## joen_cph

Interesting. Will try a couple of minutes after lunch.


----------



## mikeh375

Jacck said:


> it is not utter tosh, it is highly scientific.
> https://noc.galacticage.org/Schumann-Resonance/
> 
> you see, the Earth has a natural frequency, so does our brain. So by evolving our counsiousness to a higher level of cosmic spirituality, we increase the frequency of our brains, which in turn causes increase in the Earth's frequency and allows the Earth to ascend.
> https://spacetravelinalabama.com/20...eiadian-light-forces-transmissions-10-6-2020/


Jacck I don't know if you are serious, are you? The Alabama link....c'mon. If you are serious, then we see the world a little differently and I'll say no more.


----------



## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> Jacck I don't know if you are serious, are you? The Alabama link....c'mon. If you are serious, then we see the world a little differently and I'll say no more.


Yeah they don't even know how to spell "occurring" (when it's such an important term to them).

We can have fun with Jacck. I doubt that he will run screaming from the forum. lol


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> Interesting. Will try a couple of minutes after lunch.


Yes they should've also incorporated the axis of evil finding, a very interesting scientific finding. Difficult to explain away.

I like to read New Age more than the traditional religious stories because they try to connect to some recent findings that impresses them in a New Age sort of way.. Sometimes it's quite clever. It rarely contains fear mongering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil_(cosmology)


----------



## Flamme

Jacck said:


> Nikola Tesla's Biographer Claims The Scientist Had Contact With Aliens
> https://humansarefree.com/2020/12/nikola-tesla-biographer-contact-with-aliens.html


I read somewhere Hitler as well ''talked'' to invisible beings and aliens...


----------



## Luchesi

Flamme said:


> I read somewhere Hitler as well ''talked'' to invisible beings and aliens...


Hitler also had a bad childhood (a recurring theme here?) and he also believed that his mother was killed by her Jewish doctor. When Hitler left home and was essentially homeless he was supported by the Jewish charities, but that didn't seem to help his outlook any.


----------



## Flamme

One of the recurring topics in nazi propaganda is ''jewish doctors defiling and killing the german youth''...I think he also considered jews ''unearthly'' possibly even ''alien-ic'' creatures...Dolphy is said to have been seen ''arguing'' with an invisible ''entity'' in his room and later screaming in terror how he ''saw the SUPERMAN'' and how terrifying he was...
On another note...https://www.timesnownews.com/the-bu...blue-object-falling-into-the-sea-watch/702414


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Hitler also had a bad childhood (a recurring theme here?) and he also believed that his mother was killed by her Jewish doctor. When Hitler left home and was essentially homeless he was supported by the Jewish charities, but that didn't seem to help his outlook any.


Hitler was a malignant narcissist, the same personality type as Trump. Some psychologists believe that people are made into monsters by upbringing, I do not believe it. It is a brain disorder and people are born with it.


----------



## Flamme

Some people who knew him said there was something unusual and demonic about him especially in SPEECHES.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Flamme said:


> Some people who knew him said there was something unusual and demonic about him especially in SPEECHES.


Who are we speaking about here?


----------



## Flamme

Well, Dolphy, of course.


----------



## geralmar




----------



## Dan Ante

Where are these ETs from...............


----------



## Luchesi

Dan Ante said:


> Where are these ETs from...............


http://www.solstation.com/stars2/zeta-ret.htm


You can read about the Zeta Reticuli concept. The stars might be okay. It's curious that these stars are the same mass as our sun.

About 240 trillion miles away, they're not visible for us up north.


----------



## Dan Ante

Luchesi said:


> http://www.solstation.com/stars2/zeta-ret.htm
> 
> 
> You can read about the Zeta Reticuli concept. The stars might be okay. It's curious that these stars are the same mass as our sun.
> 
> About 240 trillion miles away, they're not visible for us up north.


Just next door then, I have not read the link yet.


----------



## Ariasexta

It is quite remarkable that in this annual new year celebration programs many chinese TV channels featured UFO themes, and the dances ressemble calling and communicating to the UFOs. Now I am more tended to consider UFOs as a false flag event where government or the commie agents pretend to be aliens to preach their evil lies. I am sure if there will be any official contact, aliens will tell you kmarx was right, science is great, gods are aliens too, and all the "secret" will be revealed to humanity; and we will be told to leave this planet for good and to be killed in the deep space. And the commies will continue to rule this planet as gods. 

Climate Warming scam is meant to paint environmental movements in a bad light and deflect the attention from the real environmental issues : ocean pollution, deforestation and biodiversity endangered. All the real environmental issues are caused by deliberate destruction of nature not due to economic needs. Their aim was to destroy nature through economy, not the way around
Commies are using us to tame the planet, this is their real goal, after we are done, they will send us away to be annihilated in the space.


----------



## Ariasexta

Commies are the real contaminant of everything, environmental changes on the planet has been deteriorating since the inception o f the creation of the so called humanity. As you should have noticed, every new ideologies supported by the scientists lead to tolerance toward corruption and destruction of nature: we need more electricity for cars and highspeed trains to travel to barbeque in the wild, we need to send our personal informations to the corporates to be a part of the next Gen industrial revo, we need aliens to explain our creation and history, we need climate warming to rise our environmental awareness, we need to become as rich as Bill Gates everybody no matter what, we need GMO to solve the food crisis, we need to leave this planet to survive.. ALLBATSHYT through and through. 

Why are we so complacent with these ugly fashions and realities? Are we supposed to be tolerant to the vulgarity? Think again!! Vulgarity is never our part of nature, none of mother nature is vulgar, none of our people. It is communism which is the source of all vulgarities. Planet Earth is aeternal, do not be fooled, as long as we can not get rid of the commies the lies will never stop. Nature has been our friend all ways, she has been protecting us from the parasites, from diseases, from slavery. By God, people, you have been turned into the filthiest creatures ever, look at yourself. UFOs? what an ugly travesty of the nature and miracles. Get rid of all the commies before you tell me any "truth" at all.


----------



## Strange Magic

Those commies! i have several under my bed and more hiding in my closet.


----------



## Jacck

Strange Magic said:


> Those commies! i have several under my bed and more hiding in my closet.


that wouldn't be so funny if you actually lived in China under the insane credit system and surveillance, because the Big Brother is literally everywhere. Even Jack Ma has been disappeared lately.


----------



## Strange Magic

Jacck said:


> that wouldn't be so funny if you actually lived in China under the insane credit system and surveillance, because the Big Brother is literally everywhere. Even Jack Ma has been disappeared lately.


Agreed. But Ariasexta's posts exaggerate the communist menace just a tiny bit: "It is communism which is the source of all vulgarities...as long as we can not get rid of the commies the lies will never stop...Get rid of all the commies before you tell me any "truth" at all." It's actually quite possible that the lies would continue on.

This is the sort of hyperbole that I like to call Wonderful. And it is wonderful......


----------



## Jacck

Strange Magic said:


> Agreed. But Ariasexta's posts exaggerate the communist menace just a tiny bit: "It is communism which is the source of all vulgarities...as long as we can not get rid of the commies the lies will never stop...Get rid of all the commies before you tell me any "truth" at all."
> 
> This is the sort of hyperbole that I like to call Wonderful. And it is wonderful......


but Ariasexta is Chinese, so he has a right to be paranoid about the commies. You have no idea how life under totalitarian regimes is. You cannot trust anyone, you may not tell you opinions to anyone, lest some spies report you to the authorities and you might get into trouble etc.


----------



## Strange Magic

Jacck said:


> but Ariasexta is Chinese, so he has a right to be paranoid about the commies. You have no idea how life under totalitarian regimes is. You cannot trust anyone, you may not tell you opinions to anyone, lest some spies report you to the authorities and you might get into trouble etc.


Again agreed. But I think I have imagination enough and have done enough reading of history to envision a life under a totalitarian regime. I certainly would greatly prefer a modern free and democratic China, and for a few brief moments in Tienanmen Square, there was a flicker of such a possibility. And modern Taiwan shows that such is possible among the Chinese, having discarded the corruption and stagnation of the Kuomintang years.

But against that, one can only marvel, looking at street scenes in China today, at the transformation of what was a wretched and impoverished country into the second most powerful economy on Earth. Bad as Chinese communism is--and is it actually communism or just a sort of fascist dictatorship with goodies?--there are actually worse places. My hope always is that people everywhere will reach a point where their material needs are met well enough so that they can turn their surplus energies to improving their governance.


----------



## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> that wouldn't be so funny if you actually lived in China under the insane credit system and surveillance, because the Big Brother is literally everywhere. Even Jack Ma has been disappeared lately.


People in the west ignore the capitalism as the alternate communism. Capitalists help commies cover up the communist faults in their ideological arguments and economic bodies, otherwise it would have been overturned by chinese people already.


----------



## Ariasexta

Strange Magic said:


> But against that, one can only marvel, looking at street scenes in China today, at the transformation of what was a wretched and impoverished country into the second most powerful economy on Earth. Bad as Chinese communism is--and is it actually communism or just a sort of fascist dictatorship with goodies?--there are actually worse places. My hope always is that people everywhere will reach a point where their material needs are met well enough so that they can turn their surplus energies to improving their governance.


People like you do not understand the real China, we have never been really one piece identity as the chinese, we are multicultural, multi-ideological entities since the beginnging of history. You will be more surprised than to see these skyscrapers to know the truly unique multicultural elements under surpression. The systematical dictatorship has a long history in China, true, but they never really represent the mainstream chinese ideology and value. It is fact and most people do not see it. Chinese people and every people in the world should have more values than being a borg in a programmed internationalist dystopia.


----------



## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> but Ariasexta is Chinese, so he has a right to be paranoid about the commies. You have no idea how life under totalitarian regimes is. You cannot trust anyone, you may not tell you opinions to anyone, lest some spies report you to the authorities and you might get into trouble etc.


I thank U. The gloss of money covers up the gruesome facts of cruelty underneath. I have been refraining from discussing politics here, but the UFO trend is a warning sign to me. This is not just a political issue, but an existential issue, ontological if to be more poetical.


----------



## Ariasexta

UFOs are not alien but more realistic and mundane threats we need to be careful. First, they are never of the primary interests but will pose serious danger to the existential well-being of the whole lives on the planet. They are traps, decoys to divert us from the real problems which urgently need our attention. If we are diverted by these false revelations, our conceptions of our own existential history will be distorted, as the result to be turned into non-humans from inside out. Focus on our state of human condition forever, humans can only be humans, if we trespass this boundary, there is possibility people can be turned into real monsters. To me, the real theme of the Aquarius Age is to know how much human we can be, since we have been told we are humans. 

Our primary conditions of humanity is the sin, ignorance, hypocrisy: they are our aeternal karma on Earth, we are mean to go through the self-testimony of our basic conditions to go for redemption and enlightenment, otherwise, we would be enslaved by the parasites. Go for destined end of history, to know if we are truly human or not. This is the basic question for me now, how really human we are, we have 2000 years to go but it is not too long for us to go through this ontological revolution. 

Aquarius Age is about the revisionism of our existential conditions from the depth of consciousness, from to be told as a human to to prove yourself to be a human and then, go for the beyond. First, we will have to show we are humans and the true revolution will begin. 

The Ontological Revolution: The metamorphosis of human body and psyche, we are probably facing an immense possibility of deep transformation of existential conditions, where to be turned into higher form of life or into lower form of existence is only the foundamental manifestation. This is no chanting and cursing, this is the real philosophical and ethical challenges that will leave impacts like never before.


----------



## Flamme

Ariasexta said:


> It is quite remarkable that in this annual new year celebration programs many chinese TV channels featured UFO themes, and the dances ressemble calling and communicating to the UFOs. Now I am more tended to consider UFOs as a false flag event where government or the commie agents pretend to be aliens to preach their evil lies. I am sure if there will be any official contact, aliens will tell you kmarx was right, science is great, gods are aliens too, and all the "secret" will be revealed to humanity; and we will be told to leave this planet for good and to be killed in the deep space. And the commies will continue to rule this planet as gods.
> 
> Climate Warming scam is meant to paint environmental movements in a bad light and deflect the attention from the real environmental issues : ocean pollution, deforestation and biodiversity endangered. All the real environmental issues are caused by deliberate destruction of nature not due to economic needs. Their aim was to destroy nature through economy, not the way around
> Commies are using us to tame the planet, this is their real goal, after we are done, they will send us away to be annihilated in the space.


I was not a fan of theories like this but lately I have grown to understand from where they come from...Im just not sure it is ONLY CHINA...But many different playwrs in world who will try on humans the different holograms ''epiphanies''...


----------



## Strange Magic

I frankly affirm that the posts of some TC members are quite beyond my ability to extract sense and meaning from them. I am clearly not up to the task


----------



## Flamme

Was this put down on my account as well? Just live and let live...


----------



## Ariasexta

Humanity means proprietorship and justice, so far, we even do not have a kick off in showing we are truly humans. No joke, DNA keep our human form, something can change it in a matter of hours. Ideologies are the spiritual DNA of humanity, we have been ignoring the non-human ideologies supplanted into our society as a preparation to turn people into real physical monsters. And it is happening, UFO are the signs of the physical transformation.


----------



## Flamme

Ariexta willl you vaccinate?


----------



## Strange Magic

I rest my case.


----------



## Ariasexta

Extracting fuels from ocean, using fusion reactors why do we need so much electricity? 90% people commuting for personal trivialities such high energy generators are over-powered and senseless. Like giving light-sabers to everybody and the monkeys. Things are strange, our economy is over-driven and off-the ground. The communism is at the driving locomotive of this absurd and ominous"development". 

You can ignore the Aquarius thing, but you an not ignore the western elites are not just appeasing communism, but refurbishing, empowering, manipulating it. If people have no motivation to go beyond the capital-communism thing, it could be a sign of non-human ideologies and dna are already taking some irrevocable effects, why are you so sure about the looks if you do not know physical forms can be distorted easily by the lowest contending scientists?


----------



## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> Ariexta willl you vaccinate?


I will never, rather will get the COVID.


----------



## Flamme

Because and this is only for Mr SM, there is a fringe theory that this vacc contains the ALIEN DNA...Admit it bruh, you CANT handle Ariexta..:lol:


----------



## Strange Magic

Flamme said:


> Because and this is only for Mr SM, there is a fringe theory that this vacc contains the ALIEN DNA...Admit it bruh, you CANT handle Ariexta..:lol:


Oh, I affirm again that Ariasexta (I know how to spell it) is way beyond me. He may even be beyond you. He may soon be beyond himself.


----------



## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> Because and this is only for Mr SM, there is a fringe theory that this vacc contains the ALIEN DNA...Admit it bruh, you CANT handle Ariexta..:lol:


I never said vaccines have alien dna, we can conquer smpox because our body and nature have been adjusted to it for several thousands of years. Covid is a new virus, a hit from the blue. Vaccination is a joke.


----------



## Ariasexta

I am already beyond myself, so are most people here. Who can say you are fully yourself everyday except for daily privacies. We are silenced, divided, numbed to the true evils and crimes like domesticated animals fed into commercial proportions. The over-driven economy is the most important sign that we do not have the real proprietorship on this planet, we do not want nuclear reactors, fission or fusion and communism, neither need them.


----------



## Flamme

Never said you did...Acc to that theory the whole virus is another big experiment by the space ''engineers'' to mutate humanity even further.


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## Ariasexta

While we are in debt to the banks, banks are in debt to nature, so we need to rob from nature and weaken it, it is an easy logic. But the premise is that mother nature is a dead thing, there is no counter-effect whatso ever. Really? What if we know we are in debt suddenly to something awakening and universally powerful? Somewhow we could be paying the debt silently. There is no occultism needed to know slender eagles and birds can fly but fat chickens can not, just simple teachings from nature here. I am sure, people can find new ways to evolve if cut off from this massively corrosive way of living, even if as wild chickens and ducks, some species of which are venerated. The current economy is over-feeding, domesticating population, like feeding refined fodders to cattles. The noble eagles, lions, whales, sharks feed on humble prays, are you sure feeding on more is showing the more nobility? On the contrary, the lower the more consuming, no matter what one eat up


----------



## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> Never said you did...Acc to that theory the whole virus is another big experiment by the space ''engineers'' to mutate humanity even further.


I have been considering on this theory too, but can not be sure about it being true or not. However, the focus is never something to be true or false, the point is to think on ones own. Given the scale of danger we face today, no time for ridiculing any possible dangers.


----------



## Jacck

Ariasexta said:


> While we are in debt to the banks, banks are in debt to nature, so we need to rob from nature and weaken it, it is an easy logic. But the premise is that mother nature is a dead thing, there is no counter-effect whatso ever. Really? What if we know we are in debt suddenly to something awakening and universally powerful? Somewhow we could be paying the debt silently. There is no occultism needed to know slender eagles and birds can fly but fat chickens can not, just simple teachings from nature here. I am sure, people can find new ways to evolve if cut off from this massively corrosive way of living, even if as wild chickens and ducks, some species of which are venerated. The current economy is over-feeding, domesticating population, like feeding refined fodders to cattles. The noble eagles, lions, whales, sharks feed on humble prays, are you sure feeding on more is showing the more nobility? On the contrary, the lower the more consuming, no matter what one eat up


highly efficient technology has allowed us to escape the natural regulatory mechanisms of nature (for example the invention of antibiotics), at least temporarily, so now we are out of control as a species and are destroying the natural environment globally. And we are collectively too stupid to regulate ourselves.


----------



## Ariasexta

Just simple logics and facts we neglected for so long, wake up. We need to get rid of this massively corrosive economic and political system. Even if we can not retain our human physical form, we can still hold onto our human spirit to hold the torch. 
As a sheep awakened to the fact himself being a sheep, that sheep has changed himself into a spiritual being even if he were to be slaughtered like the others. The result is of no importance, even one second before death, you realize yourself being what you are, is enough. Whatever the fate, to know oneselfs state of being is the most important. God will transform the world for these awakened souls.


----------



## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> highly efficient technology has allowed us to escape the natural regulatory mechanisms of nature (for example the invention of antibiotics), at least temporarily, so now we are out of control as a species and are destroying the natural environment globally. And we are collectively too stupid to regulate ourselves.


As a herd, any species will be doomed to be manipulated and pit for self-destruction. We need big brains like brain-storming teams as well as effective single brains as small as a man or an eagle, or even no brain efficiency of the bacteria. Big brains can collapse on its own weight, God has hands everywhere.


----------



## Jacck

Ariasexta said:


> Just simple logics and facts we neglected for so long, wake up. We need to get rid of this massively corrosive economic and political system. Even if we can not retain our human physical form, we can still hold onto our human spirit to hold the torch.
> As a sheep awakened to the fact himself being a sheep, that sheep has changed himself into a spiritual being even if he were to be slaughtered like the others. The result is of no importance, even one second before death, you realize yourself being what you are, is enough. Whatever the fate, to know oneselfs state of being is the most important. God will transform the world for these awakened souls.


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## mikeh375

...where have all the aliens and UFO's gone? I miss them.


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## Luchesi

mikeh375 said:


> ...where have all the aliens and UFO's gone? I miss them.


One crashed into the ocean near Hawaii last week maybe.

https://www.space.com/blue-ufo-over-hawaii?utm_source=notification


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## Flamme

Where have all the aliens gone, long time passing, where have all the aliens gone, long time ago...


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## Strange Magic

mikeh375 said:


> ...where have all the aliens and UFO's gone? I miss them.


They are here now, and are speaking through their human agents.


----------



## Strange Magic

We're having great fun here. Meanwhile, the United States Capitol has been invaded by a mob, and our elected representatives driven from their offices and from debating the nation's business. Have a banana!


----------



## Flamme

Umm, maybe they came to discover the ''alien files'' in archives of Congress...


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## Jacck

Flamme said:


> Umm, maybe they came to discover the ''alien files'' in archives of Congress...


----------



## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> They are here now, and are speaking through their human agents.


 I really admire posters who think in one language and then can post in English.

I had a friend who spoke French with his family, raised in Flemish, lived in Brazil for years, then came here to work at Los Alamos, and got another PhD here. I asked him if he ever got confused and he said no, his brain handled all that.. lol Amazing. All his friends (and I) still made fun of the way he pronounced some English words. Like "salmon". Just the way it looks written. Sal-mon


----------



## Ariasexta

I did not mean to spoil the fun sorry, I was interested in UFOs since 9 years old and had a friend who probably works as a physicist now somewhere at the time to share the fun. As time grows, the reality has turned into a huge bully of life and a lot of grudges keep churning inside my stomach. I am still interested in UFOs neverthless but there happen the priority propaganda concerns to me in this topic as I grow up. Remember all technological progresses so far are accompanied with unnecessary disasters. The UFO disclosure could also repeat such history in a measure people should be very worried. 

In the annual celebration programs for 2021 of many chinese TV channels featured UFO themes, and remarkably, you know that all chinese TV channels have official background and there is a channel called as the "Chinese Central TV", CCTV abreviated, working as the central machinery of censorship and information dissemination over all the rest TV channels. Ironically in a commoner sense, CCTV means monitor video cameras worldwide. 

This chinese CCTV channel broadcasted a song called" The Aquarius Age" in the December 29th 2020, written and sung by a chinese male singer named 丁于（Ding Yu--the U here pronounced like the german Ü). I can translate his lyrics here:

仰望银河
Looking at the Milky Way

接受冠冕
Accept the crown

拥抱光芒
Embrace the light

释放能量
Release the energy

木星，土星，冥王星汇合
Let Jupiter, Saturn, Pluto converge to gather

勇敢合一去拥抱梦想
Let us embrace our dreams bravely

真我，高我，自在我
Our true self, higher self, free self

快乐，小爱，大爱，永恒爱
Our happiness, self-love, selfless love, aeternal love

冥想，水瓶座，Aquarius, 
Let us meditate, Aquarius----

新时代 is light is love
The New Age is light is love

水瓶座的时代，Aquarius
The Age of the Aquarius, -----

全然爱 is light is love
All loving love is light is love

is light is love
--------------
------------
Repeat

The videos: (bi li bi li site)The first video is a compilation of the UFO themes of multiple chinese channels for the 2021 celebration. I feel a bit ashamed for the song by Ding Yu, I do not like it at all, bad bad song. Yuck. However, my theme for the Aquarius Age is the third video by Hamasaki Ayumi: "To Be". An old song published in 1999, I listened to this song since 15 yo. Beautiful isnt it? I am also interested in astrological traditions, ancient cultures are mostly deadly attractive to me. :angel: Just copy and paste.

1-2021年跨年晚会的UFO元素主题

2-歌曲《水瓶座时代》演唱：丁于

3-滨崎步 - To Be


----------



## Dan Ante

Strange Magic said:


> I frankly affirm that the posts of some TC members are quite beyond my ability to extract sense and meaning from them. I am clearly not up to the task


You are not alone, convoluted paths and no parking ...


----------



## Flamme

Lots of ''gotcha moments'' in this thread but posters dont get into essence. Except Ariasexta of course.


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## Strange Magic

Flamme, you are clearly one who has penetrated to the essence. Maybe you'll tell the rest of us what you've learned. Or not.


----------



## Dim7

Aliens capable of interstellar travel would be so advanced compared to us that if they wanted to destroy or harm us, there's nothing we could do about it. So little point in worrying about that. However if they posed some kind of threat that was unintentional on their part or just a side-effect of their actions, it's possible we could do something about it.


----------



## Flamme

Ariasexta said:


> I will never, rather will get the COVID.


I admire your perseverance, even when I don't agree with it!


----------



## Jacck

Dim7 said:


> Aliens capable of interstellar travel would be so advanced compared to us that if they wanted to destroy or harm us, there's nothing we could do about it. So little point in worrying about that. However if they posed some kind of threat that was unintentional on their part or just a side-effect of their actions, it's possible we could do something about it.


yes, but we have Bruce Willis, so the chances would be even


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> yes, but we have Bruce Willis, so the chances would be even


No worries. Our water or our microbes usually devastate any big bad aliens!


----------



## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> No worries. Our water or our microbes usually devastate any big bad aliens!


likely not, for example the Greys that come from Zeta Reticuli are silicon based and they would be immune to carbon based microbes


----------



## Flamme




----------



## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> I admire your perseverance, even when I don't agree with it!


Commies are forcing 50 million chinese to have their lame vaccine, it will be quite sad if one has to persevere in the most base attribute of a human: not to be forced to become a cheap lab-rat. I guess nobody will really allow the commie vac onto themself here.


----------



## Ariasexta

Commies currently control one of the most important UFO hotspot in the world: Aksaichin. While there are no chinese civilians dwelling nearby but indian villagers in Ladakh are not far from the border with Aksai Chin. It is said everyday those indian villagers can spot at least one of those strange crafts in the sky.

Underground UFO base on China and India border - Hidden Secrets


> Recently in the local school, young children of the area entered into a drawing contest. More than half of the drawings had to do with strange objects in the sky and some coming out of the mountains. Many of them even know what and when to look for.


Ladakh and Aksaichin are adjacent to the famous site of Indus Valley civilization: Mahenjo Daro, reputedly destroyed in a prehistoric nuclear disaster; also, both are only 200-500km away from the burial site of ancient celtic nomads in XinJiang known as the tocharians which were known to the famous anthropologist Sven Hedin. Himmler also sent his Ahnenerbe team to Tibet, of which AksiChin is the western most part. 

As I have stated above, there is almost no civilian inhabitants in Aksaichin area that is controlled by the commies for some reason, probably they got evacuated. But there are regular patrolling troops stationed there, they could have seen those UFOs like birds flying in and out. At least, one can wonder if UFOs can camouflage themself as invisible most of the time, why they reveal themself to plain eyes there? The site must be one of the special spots of the Planet.


----------



## mikeh375

Jacck said:


> likely not, for example the Greys that come from Zeta Reticuli are silicon based and they would be immune to carbon based microbes


...just give em cheap cuts of cows bottoms and they'll be happy.

I watched this last night as it was free on catch-up. It was much better than I expected actually, cleverly mixing real people involved in the incident itself with actors and perhaps a tincey wincey bit of speculation.


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> likely not, for example the Greys that come from Zeta Reticuli are silicon based and they would be immune to carbon based microbes


 Well then, we could take them! Carbon is better!, we're made out of meat. but if they are silicon and methane or ammonia based they would probably be more inclined to wipe us out of existence. Why share the future galaxy? ...Can't we just get along?

"Public opinion polling indicates that about one fifth to one third of the American public believes that extraterrestrials exist, Weintraub reports. However, this varies considerably with religious affiliation.
*Belief in extraterrestrials varies by religion*


55 percent of Atheists

44 percent of Muslims

37 percent of Jews

36 percent of Hindus

32 percent of Christians 
Of the Christians, more than one third of the Eastern Orthodox faithful (41 percent), Roman Catholics (37 percent), Methodists (37 percent), and Lutherans (35 percent) professed belief in extraterrestrial life. Only the Baptists (29 percent) fell below the one-third threshold.
Asian religions would have the least difficulty in accepting the discovery of extraterrestrial life, Weintraub concluded. Some Hindu thinkers have speculated that humans may be reincarnated as aliens, and vice versa, while Buddhist cosmology includes thousands of inhabited worlds."

https://www.astrobio.net/alien-life/worlds-religions-ready-e-t/


----------



## Flamme

mikeh375 said:


> ...just give em cheap cuts of cows bottoms and they'll be happy.
> 
> I watched this last night as it was free on catch-up. It was much better than I expected actually, cleverly mixing real people involved in the incident itself with actors and perhaps a tincey wincey bit of speculation.
> 
> View attachment 148581


And whats your take...Were they flares? Me thinks either a 1. The mass hysteria 2. A huge experimental plane 3. A real UFO from another planet.


----------



## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> Well then, we could take them! Carbon is better!, we're made out of meat. but if they are silicon and methane or ammonia based they would probably be more inclined to wipe us out of existence. Why share the future galaxy? ...Can't we just get along?
> 
> "Public opinion polling indicates that about one fifth to one third of the American public believes that extraterrestrials exist, Weintraub reports. However, this varies considerably with religious affiliation.
> *Belief in extraterrestrials varies by religion*
> 
> 
> 55 percent of Atheists
> 
> 44 percent of Muslims
> 
> 37 percent of Jews
> 
> 36 percent of Hindus
> 
> 32 percent of Christians
> Of the Christians, more than one third of the Eastern Orthodox faithful (41 percent), Roman Catholics (37 percent), Methodists (37 percent), and Lutherans (35 percent) professed belief in extraterrestrial life. Only the Baptists (29 percent) fell below the one-third threshold.
> Asian religions would have the least difficulty in accepting the discovery of extraterrestrial life, Weintraub concluded. Some Hindu thinkers have speculated that humans may be reincarnated as aliens, and vice versa, while Buddhist cosmology includes thousands of inhabited worlds."
> 
> https://www.astrobio.net/alien-life/worlds-religions-ready-e-t/


Worth noting that it seems to be related to the existence of extraterrestrial life generally, not just UFO-flying, little green men. This would also explain the relatively high percentage among science-interested atheists.


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> Worth noting that it seems to be related to the existence of extraterrestrial life generally, not just UFO-flying, little green men. This would also explain the relatively high percentage among science-interested atheists.


Yes, that's a good point. Extraterrestrial life anywhere in the universe? Anywhere in 4 trillion galaxies? Of course there is!


----------



## Jacck

everything that we know about the Zeta-Greys
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_zetareticuli10.htm


----------



## joen_cph

Jacck said:


> everything that we know about the Zeta-Greys
> https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_zetareticuli10.htm


I guess one can read this as a sort of ~poetry, or study it as an example of an individual, or minority, need for a mythology with a contemporary touch.


----------



## Luchesi

Jacck said:


> everything that we know about the Zeta-Greys
> https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_zetareticuli10.htm


Beings, not far away from us in the galaxy, who share our body plans? Our 2 eyes, our arms and legs? I would think that would be very unlikely.


----------



## mikeh375

Flamme said:


> And whats your take...Were they flares? Me thinks either a 1. The mass hysteria 2. A huge experimental plane 3. A real UFO from another planet.


Dunno Flamme and we probably never will get to know. It's hard to see those lights as mass hysteria, there was _something_ in the air that night as there where too many credible witnesses. On film too the actual Mayor of Phoenix (or is it Arizona?), tells how her office and any investigation was stonewalled and warned off by the military.
In the film, the flare theory was neatly incorporated into the yarn and explained away as a visual diversion dropped by the military to attract civic attention away from events nearby - events that involved military engagement with UFO's.

Baloney? Well perhaps but being a sci-fi fan, I find it all good fun and entertaining.


----------



## Luchesi

UFOs mess with another Indonesian airliner?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...91e7d0-5275-11eb-a1f5-fdaf28cfca90_story.html


----------



## Luchesi

Aliens might deviously be speeding up the rotation rate of our planet in order to kill us off!

(Or it might just be changes in the global wind circulations.)

"Earth broke the previous record for shortest astronomical day, set in 2005, 28 times. That year's shortest day, July 5, saw Earth complete a rotation 1.0516 milliseconds faster than 86,400 seconds. The shortest day in 2020 was July 19, when the planet completed one spin 1.4602 milliseconds faster than 86,400 seconds."


----------



## joen_cph

Ouch, that sounds alarming. 

Better dress accordingly, with no stuff that will easily fall off, or fly away.


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> Ouch, that sounds alarming.
> 
> Better dress accordingly, with no stuff that will easily fall off, or fly away.


heh But it's only the beginning ...just like global warming. 'Barely noticeable unless you're resolute in watching the shiftings of 570 pressure height line (which is an abbreviation for 5700 meters altitude where the pressure is about half of the sea level pressure standard).


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> Aliens might deviously be speeding up the rotation rate of our planet in order to kill us off!


Indeed, they may have a secret GFM (Gravitational Force Magnifier) that concentrates the GFR's (Gravitational Force Rays) of the moon, just like a magnifying glass concentrates the sun's rays. Concentrate those enhanced moon rays on the forward-spinning side of the earth and presto, we're in Spin City!


----------



## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> Indeed, they may have a secret GFM (Gravitational Force Magnifier) that concentrates the GFR's (Gravitational Force Rays) of the moon, just like a magnifying glass concentrates the sun's rays. Concentrate those enhanced moon rays on the forward-spinning side of the earth and presto, we're in Spin City!


That's how they're doing it, but now, what do we do about it?


----------



## Luchesi

Our brain circuitry on the lowest scale (neurons and dendrites) is more powerful than that of other animals!

What? Spooky ...Anyone for intelligent design? Alien interventions In prehistory?


----------



## Jacck

US intelligence agencies have 180 days to share what they know about UFOs, thanks to the Covid-19 relief and spending bill
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/10/us/ufo-report-emergency-relief-bill-trnd/index.html


----------



## Ariasexta

I have long been fascinated by the undergound tunnel system known as the Cueva de Los Tayos in Equador, from where many golden pieces were found with hieroglyphic and pictorial relieves. Most of them were said to have been hidden away except for a few left and a few pictures. The tunnel system is estimated to be no less than 6000km in its northward extension untill Mexico, no counting the possibility of another southward extension. Does anyone have anything to say about this? All the information on the internet about it is so scarce.

I am more interested in the mysterious ruins and artefacts, they are accessible to the eyes and hands as well as being ethereal and beautiful.


----------



## Dan Ante

Luchesi said:


> That's how they're doing it, but now, what do we do about it?


Tell them to bu**er off and take their covid death ray with em...


----------



## Flamme

mikeh375 said:


> Dunno Flamme and we probably never will get to know. It's hard to see those lights as mass hysteria, there was _something_ in the air that night as there where too many credible witnesses. On film too the actual Mayor of Phoenix (or is it Arizona?), tells how her office and any investigation was stonewalled and warned off by the military.
> In the film, the flare theory was neatly incorporated into the yarn and explained away as a visual diversion dropped by the military to attract civic attention away from events nearby - events that involved military engagement with UFO's.
> 
> Baloney? Well perhaps but being a sci-fi fan, I find it all good fun and entertaining.


Tried to watch the movie but its so speculative its almost unwatchable!!!


----------



## joen_cph

The Spanish Wikipedia page on the mentioned caves is somewhat more informative and talks of a maximum tunnel length of 18 km, of natural origins. 

Daeniken was a creative swindler.


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> That's how they're doing it, but now, what do we do about it?


So many questions!!! Your reply made me think . There's a flaw in my theory. Aliens have to hide on the far side of the moon to avoid detection. GFR's they direct would go away from, rather than towards, the earth. Now, there may be curved space or _n_-dimensional geometry that swings those GFR's around towards us and sends us spinning, but (_assumes humble voice_) I'm not Einstein. So we'll have to put this theory away for now. (Maybe hand it over to an Observational Astronomer?)


----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> Our brain circuitry on the lowest scale (neurons and dendrites) is more powerful than that of other animals!
> 
> What? Spooky ...Anyone for intelligent design? Alien interventions In prehistory?


No problem I take care of them dendrites with dendrite shampoo.


----------



## Flamme

Ariasexta said:


> I have long been fascinated by the undergound tunnel system known as the Cueva de Los Tayos in Equador, from where many golden pieces were found with hieroglyphic and pictorial relieves. Most of them were said to have been hidden away except for a few left and a few pictures. The tunnel system is estimated to be no less than 6000km in its northward extension untill Mexico, no counting the possibility of another southward extension. Does anyone have anything to say about this? All the information on the internet about it is so scarce.
> 
> I am more interested in the mysterious ruins and artefacts, they are accessible to the eyes and hands as well as being ethereal and beautiful.


Dont know about that but I saw this...Kryptonite??? https://cen.acs.org/physical-chemistry/geochemistry/Naicas-crystal-cave-captivates-chemists/97/i6


----------



## Ich muss Caligari werden

INFO on UFO may be coming soon! https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/10/us/ufo-report-emergency-relief-bill-trnd/index.html


----------



## joen_cph

I agree with the general enthusiasm about this, 
which BTW has resulted in the presenting of the recent news story three times in the thread  .


----------



## NoCoPilot

Guess none of y'all are old enough to have heard of Project Blue Book?


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Guess none of y'all are old enough to have heard of Project Blue Book?


I posted about it, my frustration with it at work, before you joined the forum.


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## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> No problem I take care of them dendrites with dendrite shampoo.


I always thought that Head and Shoulders was a silly name for any product, but then a marketing professor church friend bassoonist told me that it's all about annoying people! so that they'll remember! Have pity on us!


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## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> So many questions!!! Your reply made me think . There's a flaw in my theory. Aliens have to hide on the far side of the moon to avoid detection. GFR's they direct would go away from, rather than towards, the earth. Now, there may be curved space or _n_-dimensional geometry that swings those GFR's around towards us and sends us spinning, but (_assumes humble voice_) I'm not Einstein. So we'll have to put this theory away for now. (Maybe hand it over to an Observational Astronomer?)


In this quantum world with spooky action at a distance I guess anything can happen, and does happen somewhere. But now they've pretty much decided (only this year) that information isn't lost in this universe of black holes. What are the ramifications of this math? Well it might mean that singularities aren't possible --- and that means that there's no connections to parallel universes --- and that means that GOD! muuhaahaa

added: we had better find out which religion is the correct one


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## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> Dont know about that but I saw this...Kryptonite??? https://cen.acs.org/physical-chemistry/geochemistry/Naicas-crystal-cave-captivates-chemists/97/i6


Amazing geological site, the Americas are also full of wonders. That is a Hall of Crystals.


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> In this quantum world with spooky action at a distance I guess anything can happen, and does happen somewhere. But now they've pretty much decided (only this year) that information isn't lost in this universe of black holes. What are the ramifications of this math? Well it might mean that singularities aren't possible --- and that means that there's no connections to parallel universes --- and that means that GOD! muuhaahaa
> 
> added: we had better find out which religion is the correct one


In fact the universe under Einsteins Relativities is a bit boring, I have come to doubt the existence of blackholes, they are foundamentally not in consistence of the Relativities, neither in concord with Quantum theories. Completely close space-time by gravity simply is meaningless, it means, a stellar body as massive as a blackhole should not remain upon our current dimension of space-time, it would have disappear from our universe by warping into higher dimensional space-time.


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## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> In this quantum world with spooky action at a distance I guess anything can happen, and does happen somewhere. But now they've pretty much decided (only this year) that information isn't lost in this universe of black holes. What are the ramifications of this math? Well it might mean that singularities aren't possible --- and that means that there's no connections to parallel universes --- and that means that GOD! muuhaahaa
> 
> added: we had better find out which religion is the correct one


I think that in times of great fear and stress people are more susceptible to experiencing things as paranormal phenomena. As for Congressional Hearings, they have more important things to do. Maybe you have written about this before, but I wonder if with all the time you've spent observing the sky as a meteorologist or astronomer, have you ever seen a UFO?


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

Apologies _tout le monde_ for my UFO news posting of what had already been posted! In regard to the future release of those records have you ever wondered why_ now_? Is it possible, do you think, that we are so at each other's throats, that news of extraterrestrials might be used to bring us together as a nation, even as citizens of the planet? I personally don't believe it's the case, myself, but it is at least intriguing... I'm hardly sure even of the efficacy of that notion; one looks for historical parallels and thinks immediately for example of Native Americans, some of whose tribes were brought together by the colonists' arrival, others continued their internecine warfare, some opportunistically fought for the new arrivals!


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## Flamme

Yeah maybe some nations who would present themselves as ''super-powers'' would try to establish monopoly for negotiations and trading of secrets weaponry etc...


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## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> In fact the universe under Einsteins Relativities is a bit boring, I have come to doubt the existence of blackholes, they are foundamentally not in consistence of the Relativities, neither in concord with Quantum theories. Completely close space-time by gravity simply is meaningless, it means, a stellar body as massive as a blackhole should not remain upon our current dimension of space-time, it would have disappear from our universe by warping into higher dimensional space-time.


 Ed Witten has reportedly unified gravity with the other 3 forces by sufficiently describing the 10th spacial dimension in the correct mathematics. But this below is from 'way back in 1995.

"The strong coupling dynamics of string theories in dimension d greater than 4 are studied. It is argued, among other things, that eleven-dimensional supergravity arises as a low energy limit of the ten-dimensional Type IIA superstring, and that a recently conjectured duality between the heterotic string and Type IIA superstrings controls the strong coupling dynamics of the heterotic string in five, six, and seven dimensions and implies S duality for both heterotic and Type II strings."

https://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/9503124.pdf

If everything is weirdly dimensioned strings vibrating in 10 dimensions resulting in 10 dimensional shapes we can't even envision, and thereby coupling in unique ways with some exchange particles but not others 
AND fields are influential because of mere 'bumps' in their condensates, then no more reduction and simplifying is needed. Everything is very simple, including gravity (strings?) which emanates across all the adjacent 'bounded' universes?


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## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> I think that in times of great fear and stress people are more susceptible to experiencing things as paranormal phenomena. As for Congressional Hearings, they have more important things to do. Maybe you have written about this before, but I wonder if with all the time you've spent observing the sky as a meteorologist or astronomer, have you ever seen a UFO?


I didn't expect to be able to estimate the height of clouds by type and appearance comparisons, as we were taught. But eventually I could (checking them with the Rotating Beam Ceilometer and PIREPS).

But no, not even unidentified aircraft where I've worked. I decided that people needed to want to see UFOs, but I certainly listened seriously to what happened to them... In Athens Greece I worked on one of the Seven Hills overlooking the Parthenon (near the quarry the marble blocks came out of) and many folks saw UFOs over their famous site.. I guess that's to be expected. The Greeks are very proud of their past. When I got a taxi ride from the airport the taxi driver had a list of English words hanging from his dashboard derived from Greek. I thought wow, such pride!


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> Ed Witten has reportedly unified gravity with the other 3 forces by sufficiently describing the 10th spacial dimension in the correct mathematics. But this below is from 'way back in 1995.
> 
> "The strong coupling dynamics of string theories in dimension d greater than 4 are studied. It is argued, among other things, that eleven-dimensional supergravity arises as a low energy limit of the ten-dimensional Type IIA superstring, and that a recently conjectured duality between the heterotic string and Type IIA superstrings controls the strong coupling dynamics of the heterotic string in five, six, and seven dimensions and implies S duality for both heterotic and Type II strings."
> 
> https://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/9503124.pdf
> 
> If everything is weirdly dimensioned strings vibrating in 10 dimensions resulting in 10 dimensional shapes we can't even envision, and thereby coupling in unique ways with some exchange particles but not others
> AND fields are influential because of mere 'bumps' in their condensates, then no more reduction and simplifying is needed. Everything is very simple, including gravity (strings?) which emanates across all the adjacent 'bounded' universes?


I also am interested mathematics but not in the same mood with the arts. I have some thoughts about the string theory also, and probably could overturn it while leaving out some formulae to revisit. However, so far the higher dimensions are a pure math concept, experimentally unrealistic, but I personally believe that higher dimensions are true. Current mathematical models only give quantum ambiguity to evade the necessity of the higher dimensions. And if we already "have" the Higgs boson to explain gravity, do we really need higher dimensions? It seems to me that Higgs boson and Superstring theory are in contradiction to each other.


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## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> I also am interested mathematics but not in the same mood with the arts. I have some thoughts about the string theory also, and probably could overturn it while leaving out some formulae to revisit. However, so far the higher dimensions are a pure math concept, experimentally unrealistic, but I personally believe that higher dimensions are true. Current mathematical models only give quantum ambiguity to evade the necessity of the higher dimensions. And if we already "have" the Higgs boson to explain gravity, do we really need higher dimensions? It seems to me that Higgs boson and Superstring theory are in contradiction to each other.


 I like the idea that instead of pointlike particles in the Standard Theory, String Theory says that the particles we think we see are one-dimensional strings. And they have the familiar behavior of strings - and this can explain what Dark Matter is and why it has its peculiar attributes. So I admire the work that's being done.

Without that exotic Dark Matter stuff we wouldn't be here, so it is relevant to our existential condition. I mean, if the sun contains more than 20% Dark Matter then it's a big part of our theoretical predictions about habitability on our jewel of a planet. 'Kinda important.


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## Ariasexta

Look at these two interesting articles: the former is from 2001, the latter is from 2016 after the the supposed Higg boson discovery. The rhetorics are contradicting each other, the latter is trying hard to explain away something:



> How does the Higgs boson affect string theory?
> 
> February 26, 2001
> 
> Still, enough is known about string theory that there are some suggestive connections to our world. Most important, string theory seems to require our world to have a property called supersymmetry. And a supersymmetric Standard Model with string theory boundary conditions has Higgs bosons and explains their properties. Whereas the mass of the Higgs boson cannot be calculated in the Standard Model, in the supersymmetric Standard Model the mass can be calculated approximately to be* 9040 GeV, a range that contains the likely discovered value*.
> 
> Finding a Higgs boson thus strongly supports the supersymmetric Standard Model, which in turn supports the notion that string theory is indeed the right approach to nature. If so, it is very likely that more confirmation of the existence of the Higgs boson will be discovered in the next few years at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, where data collection will begin in March 2001.





> Difference Between Higgs Boson and String Theory
> August 23, 2016
> by Kuma
> 7 min read
> 
> Unlike in photon, invariant masses of graviton or gluon are zero; the Higgs boson is a massive particle with a mass in the range of* 125 GeV/c2 -126 GeV/c2*. Therefore, a large amount of energy is needed to create a Higgs boson. In a particle accelerator, charged particles are accelerated and strike against each other. As a result, the energy of the particles is converted into mass according to the Einstein equation E = mc2 . In order to create a Higgs boson, a particle accelerator must be able to accelerate the particles very close to the speed of light because Higgs boson is a massive particle. However, in 2013, the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN announced that they had succeeded in discovering the Higgs particle. Even though the standard model isn't a completely acceptable story of matter and energy, the existence of the Higgs particle confirmed some other important predictions of the standard model: the existence of the Higgs field, the Higgs mechanism, and the way particles acquire their mass.
> 
> The strings in the string theories may be either closed or open strings or both. One can start to develop a string theory from any type of these strings. *If he wants to develop a string theory only for bosons, it is a bosonic string theory. A bosonic string theory explains all the fundamental interactions except matter. The bosonic string theory is a theory of 26 dimensions. But if someone wants to develop a string theory which is capable of explaining all the fundamental interactions as well as matter, a special symmetry between the bosons (force carriers) and the fermions (matter particles) called "supersymmetry" is needed.* Such a string theory is known as a "superstring theory." There are five types of superstrings theories, and they are still being developed. The latest revolution in the string theory is "the M-theory" which is still under development.


It is interesting to see the huge gap between the estimated mass of the Higg and the founded mass by CERN, why？ Likely because the earlier model of string theory had a large gap between the Quantum mechanics and its theorized symmetric structures. We have to note that Sting theory of any kind is centered around the concepts of symmetry or supersymmetry, which are meant to be a bridge between the Quantum and Relativities theories. However, their constructed symmetries are like broken islands in an ocean of chaos that can not be explained away. Also, originally Superstring Theory calls on 11 dimension, but for the Higgs, we are going to have 26 dimensions, it shows that the earlier dimensional structures were unable to hold the water for the Higg experimental datas: the energy required to produce the Higgs bump was larger than their original calculation.


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> I like the idea that instead of pointlike particles in the Standard Theory, String Theory says that the particles we think we see are one-dimensional strings. And they have the familiar behavior of strings - and this can explain what Dark Matter is and why it has its peculiar attributes. So I admire the work that's being done.
> 
> Without that exotic Dark Matter stuff we wouldn't be here, so it is relevant to our existential condition. I mean, if the sun contains more than 20% Dark Matter then it's a big part of our theoretical predictions about habitability on our jewel of a planet. 'Kinda important.


The dark matter theory is too evasive that I do not like it at all. But I do like the String Theory however I can pick faults with it for now. I go with instinction as well as scientifical proofs, so doing I recommend everyone to follow.( Maybe the word string reminds of music, so it resonates with me). Also coincidentally, my own theory about the string theory also has its foundation on the dark energy(my version of the dark matter), as it is too close to truth, yet theoretically naive, it could be dangerous to publish it for now. I will have to wait for the science and general social conditions to progress to complete my own theory. My math level is undergraduate with a bit graduate senses, I can only theorize without proving it. SO basically, string theory is still important to me I have to wait for it to mature to compliment my theory, I am not in favor of Higgs in the long run. Instinct alert. :lol:


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## Ariasexta

The math is not as difficult as it looks, but it will take massive energy to get some solid skills in it. You can do it by starting with Classical Mechanic and Calculus, and then going to the Diophantine problems. I devide Math into 3 topics: 1-Mechanics;2-Calculus;3-Arithmetics(Algebra is a branch of arithmetics, Diophatine problems are the root of them both).The number 3 is the most difficult to figure, you will need profound skills and experience to get some scores out of it. 

By watching yt videos on the Higgs and its experiments, you will have a lot of necessary ideas. Back to the topic, we still have a long way to go before we can unlock the sacred secrets of the universe, my theory only tells me that the final answers are not atheistic but will also reveal our spiritual and religious history as well. It is going to be as elegant as it is orderly, as mysterious as it is gnostic, finally I can say that there is an end to the science, we are going steadily toward it now.

Also, there are important significant meanings in all the "wrong" scientifical theories and experiments, science to me is not necessarily to reveal the facts and truth all the time, it is mostly importantly an art of approximation. No matter what is to be proven right at the end, there is nothing to be unnecessary in the history of science including religion and other failed theories. They will finally reveal something truthful at the end. It is Ok to learn whatever theories we have today, the scientifical truth is not meant to be monopolistic, but redemptive, like a light beam that suddenly brightening up the darkness, everything will become truthful and given meaning: there is no falsehood exists under the light of truth.


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## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> Look at these two interesting articles: the former is from 2001, the latter is from 2016 after the the supposed Higg boson discovery. The rhetorics are contradicting each other, the latter is trying hard to explain away something:
> 
> It is interesting to see the huge gap between the estimated mass of the Higg and the founded mass by CERN, why？ Likely because the earlier model of string theory had a large gap between the Quantum mechanics and its theorized symmetric structures. We have to note that Sting theory of any kind is centered around the concepts of symmetry or supersymmetry, which are meant to be a bridge between the Quantum and Relativities theories. However, their constructed symmetries are like broken islands in an ocean of chaos that can not be explained away. Also, originally Superstring Theory calls on 11 dimension, but for the Higgs, we are going to have 26 dimensions, it shows that the earlier dimensional structures were unable to hold the water for the Higg experimental datas: the energy required to produce the Higgs bump was larger than their original calculation.


I wouldn't be too critical of this history because even the physicists I work with could explain this history to you. I don't want to post something that isn't correct, so seek out someone more knowledgable. I have problems keeping up with the new developments in my field of dynamic meteorology and global circulations. Most scientists want predictions to be wrong so that they can learn something unexpected. Science is just a self-correcting approach and an acknowledged mechanism.


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## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> The dark matter theory is too evasive that I do not like it at all. But I do like the String Theory however I can pick faults with it for now. I go with instinction as well as scientifical proofs, so doing I recommend everyone to follow.( Maybe the word string reminds of music, so it resonates with me). Also coincidentally, my own theory about the string theory also has its foundation on the dark energy(my version of the dark matter), as it is too close to truth, yet theoretically naive, it could be dangerous to publish it for now. I will have to wait for the science and general social conditions to progress to complete my own theory. My math level is undergraduate with a bit graduate senses, I can only theorize without proving it. SO basically, string theory is still important to me I have to wait for it to mature to compliment my theory, I am not in favor of Higgs in the long run. Instinct alert. :lol:


I've read that the strength of the Higgs field is 10,000 trillion times weaker than it should be.
The per unit strength of Dark Energy should be 10 to the power of 120 times stronger than the value measured in astronomy. That number is a trillion trillion quadrillion times bigger than the number of atoms in the entire universe.
Something's wrong with human thinking, and if not, then it's the result that physicists don't like to find, i.e. these values are highly improbable and unique to this universe. 'Not acceptable.

Why are the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field both so far to the weak side of their theoretical ranges? We shouldn't complain, it's the reason we're here. But why? Could the answer be that there's just so many universes? 10^500 universes according the vibrational states of the 10 spatial dimensions of string theory.
This Higgs "fiasco" stuff has gotten wild with the theorized range of the strength for the Higgs and the range of the per unit strength of Dark Energy. Both are peculiar findings. But they can explain why we're here. ...and that's what science is all about.

Apparently, string theory can explain these wild conditions, but the telltale hints of new particles need to be found. There's none in the energy window reached by CERN as was hopefully predicted by the string theory. It's been called a fiasco.


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> I've read that the strength of the Higgs field is 10,000 trillion times weaker than it should be.
> The per unit strength of Dark Energy should be 10 to the power of 120 times stronger than the value measured in astronomy. That number is a trillion trillion quadrillion times bigger than the number of atoms in the entire universe.
> Something's wrong with human thinking, and if not, then it's the result that physicists don't like to find, i.e. these values are highly improbable and unique to this universe. 'Not acceptable.
> 
> Why are the per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field both so far to the weak side of their theoretical ranges? We shouldn't complain, it's the reason we're here. But why? Could the answer be that there's just so many universes? 10^500 universes according the vibrational states of the 10 spatial dimensions of string theory.
> This Higgs "fiasco" stuff has gotten wild with the theorized range of the strength for the Higgs and the range of the per unit strength of Dark Energy. Both are peculiar findings. But they can explain why we're here. ...and that's what science is all about.
> 
> Apparently, string theory can explain these wild conditions, but the telltale hints of new particles need to be found. There's none in the energy window reached by CERN as was hopefully predicted by the string theory. It's been called a fiasco.


The high energy is an ideology already, the Quantum Chaos is a pool of endless probability to be exploited. I am sure that Higgs bump was something, but not what they say to be. Overally, Cern does find something from time to time, but our definitions of them could be wrong, at least for now. Higgs Field is not equal to Higgs boson, it is a field of probability also, it is why the colliders had to run many many times to reach that bump.


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## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> The high energy is an ideology already, the Quantum Chaos is a pool of endless probability to be exploited. I am sure that Higgs bump was something, but not what they say to be. Overally, Cern does find something from time to time, but our definitions of them could be wrong, at least for now. Higgs Field is not equal to Higgs boson, it is a field of probability also, it is why the colliders had to run many many times to reach that bump.


Those are very good points. I always get this feeling that humans are not up to this task of understanding. We can experiment with only 4% of the mass (actually less than that) and then there's all those pesky higher spacial dimensions with their totally unseen effects, Calabi Yau shapes and/or undiscovered vibrational states and spin states. Colliding branes and multiverses.

added: Those physicists don't want to learn that this universe is completely unique and nothing in general can be learned, except that it's UNIQUE. A dead end for them!


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## Jacck

Luchesi said:


> Those are very good points. I always get this feeling that humans are not up to this task of understanding. We can experiment with only 4% of the mass (actually less than that) and then there's all those pesky higher spacial dimensions with their totally unseen effects, Calabi Yau shapes and/or undiscovered vibrational states and spin states. Colliding branes and multiverses.


but that is speculative physics. The real bedrock is the Standard Model and that is spectacularly confirmed by experiments. Lay people see these crazy predictions of String Theory and conclude that somehow all physics must be wrong. The fact is that the Standard Model is a crowning achievement of 300 years of painstaiking research and unification and it is fabulously precise in its predictions. Sure, it cannot explain everything, but physics would become boring if we had the TOE
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/five-mysteries-the-standard-model-cant-explain


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> Those are very good points. I always get this feeling that humans are not up to this task of understanding. We can experiment with only 4% of the mass (actually less than that) and then there's all those pesky higher spacial dimensions with their totally unseen effects, Calabi Yau shapes and/or undiscovered vibrational states and spin states. Colliding branes and multiverses.
> 
> added: Those physicists don't want to learn that this universe is completely unique and nothing in general can be learned, except that it's UNIQUE. A dead end for them!


Our understanding is always on the approximation without a complete convergence on a definite value, the more we approach to the truth the more the error matters, and there is a possibility that these small or tiniest errors would turn out to be a portal to the world which is totally inverse to our own. Does errors matter? yes, and we are going to face them soon and the consequences could be biblical.

Yet, our current science can serve us as long as we observe the rules we set for ourselves. I guess if we want the truth after tiresome trials, truth will just come out the blue and hit us very hard, it is how life evolves.


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## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> but that is speculative physics. The real bedrock is the Standard Model and that is spectacularly confirmed by experiments. Lay people see these crazy predictions of String Theory and conclude that somehow all physics must be wrong. The fact is that the Standard Model is a crowning achievement of 300 years of painstaiking research and unification and it is fabulously precise in its predictions. Sure, it cannot explain everything, but physics would become boring if we had the TOE
> https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/five-mysteries-the-standard-model-cant-explain


Classical Mecs is about 3 dimensional physics, when we peep into higher dimensions only God knows what we are dealing with. :lol: Somebody could punch us in the face through the worm hole and shut it up.


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## KenOC

Being of a practical turn, I must ask re string or superstring theory: Is there a prediction that any of these can make that is even theoretically testable, in order to support or invalidate them? I have read that there is not, but have no idea whether or not this is true.

In my book, a hypothesis that cannot be tested lies outside the realm of science, like supernatural phenomena (God etc.)


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## Ariasexta

KenOC said:


> Being of a practical turn, I must ask re string or superstring theory: Is there a prediction that any of these can make that is even theoretically testable, in order to support or invalidate them? I have read that there is not, but have no idea whether or not this is true.
> 
> In my book, a hypothesis that cannot be tested lies outside the realm of science, like supernatural phenomena (God etc.)


So far the Higgs boson experiment was an attempt to find some clues about the strings, but nothing adds up to the current math models of the theory. As we can see above the estimated mass of the Higgs was way too much for the found mass, there is something seriously amiss in our string math. I suppose by supercomputer simulation, we probably can find something to improve the String Theory, however, due to the economical impracticability, nobody will seriously consider it in near future. Or let me to put it bluntly, it is not that our technical experiments are not advanced enough, but currently our math is too poor for the concept of strings.


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## Ariasexta

> 125 GeV is below 135 GeV, which means that it makes supersymmetry, a key component of string theory, more likely than not. Moreover, 125 GeV is the boundary between "simple and visible QFT-like SUSY" (below 125) and "hidden, complicated, or extended SUSY" like stringy SUSY (above 125), if I am a bit approximate.
> 
> *So there are lots of grand unified supersymmetric models and string/M-theory-based models that predict Higgs of this mass.*
> 
> On the contrary, *the Standard Model predicts that it's unlikely that the Higgs mass is below 135 GeV or so* - well, the Standard Model would prefer masses that are larger by orders of magnitude and even given the known and measured vev, it would prefer masses closer to 500 GeV or more. Moreover, the Standard Model with the Higgs mass below 126 GeV or so - the number is known plus minus a few GeV (which is unfortunate because the newly measured Higgs mass is very close to this critical value) - would ultimately cause the vacuum to be unstable at an energy scale beneath the Planck scale which would probably be an inconsistency.* This inconsistency has to be fixed by adding new fields and particles to the Standard Model*, anyway.


Above is a professional comment on the Higgs and the String theory from stack-exchange site.

As we can see the Standard String model does not hold water for the data, the superstring theory has to come forward to explain and notice the last sentence, which is equivalent to the superstring theory, literally adding new fields and unfounded particles. Still the superstring theory has leave more question than ever by trying to support the CERNs Higgs data.

Get a sleep people. Do not wake up in the midnight to the thread. I am off for the next 10 hours.


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## BachIsBest

KenOC said:


> Being of a practical turn, I must ask re string or superstring theory: Is there a prediction that any of these can make that is even theoretically testable, in order to support or invalidate them? I have read that there is not, but have no idea whether or not this is true.
> 
> In my book, a hypothesis that cannot be tested lies outside the realm of science, like supernatural phenomena (God etc.)


These theories do make testable predictions but these predictions are generally subject to two problems:

1. The predictions depend on choices made in formulating the theory and can therefore be modified to match observation. Essentially, the string theory people think the universe has more dimensions than 4. As we don't observe more than 4 dimensions in everyday life these new dimensions have to either be really big or small and somehow "wrapped up". Depending on what you choose for your extra dimensions, and how you wrap them up, you get different experimental predictions. Currently, a lot of work is being done in mathematics and physics to try and find "good" extra dimension configurations. Obviously, this is very vague, but hopefully, you get the idea.

2. The predictions made are definite but can only be tested by experiments we currently can not do. I think this one is more self-explanatory.

So you see, string theory is not exactly like God. Although, I can share an antidote along these lines from when I was an undergraduate student in physics a few years ago. I was once in a room filled mostly with experimental physicists and an undergraduate student (not me) mentioned string theory; immediately the entire room erupted into laughter. I asked why they all laughed when string theory was mentioned, and one professor patiently explained how, from an experimental point of view, string theory has so far been close to useless and yet still receives so much interest.

I would say most people who now do string theory related things are now mathematicians; the mathematics that has come out of string theory has provoked incredible advancements in many fields of mathematics and this will perhaps be string theory's greatest legacy. I mention this as a personal plug since it is related to what I do (I'm currently a graduate student in mathematics whose research partially centres around math that arose partially from string theory).


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## geralmar

The CIA has declassified and released 2,780 pages of UFO reports.

News story:

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-black-vault-releases-trove-of-cias-classified-ufo-documents/

Download site:

https://www.theblackvault.com/documentarchive/ufos-the-central-intelligence-agency-cia-collection/


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## ArtMusic

KenOC said:


> For the first time, the Navy has said that the UFO's observed in recent encounters are likely real. Navy spokesman Josepth Gradisher says that "the 'Unidentified Aerial Phenomena' terminology is used because it provides the basic descriptor for the sightings/observations of unauthorized/unidentified aircraft/objects that have been observed entering/operating in the airspace of various military-controlled training ranges." This relates specifically to three encounters, the first in 2004 and the other two in 2015.
> 
> Luis Elizondo, the former head of the Pentagon's Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), speaks of the well-known November 14, 2004 encounter off the San Diego coast: "What the pilots encountered that day was able to perform in ways that defied all logic and our current understanding of aerodynamics. Furthermore, beyond what the pilots saw with their own trained eye, the technological feat they encountered was further verified by the impressive Aegis SPY-1 radar, America's premier radar system at the time, and even gun camera footage and sonar systems from submarines accompanying the carrier." This encounter, part of the multi-day *Nimitz incident*, is covered in Wiki.
> 
> I'm curious if anybody here has any ideas about this, about UFOs generally, has seen a UFO, or even (gasp) been abducted! Anyway, a happy Klaatu Barada Nikto to all!


UFO's are real. The universe is incomprehensibly large and humans love to think we are special/unique. How can one conclude that out of the billions of stars/planets, we are the only intelligent life? There are also very credible witnesses including astronauts, people in the army, commercial pilots, police etc. who would not make up stories but are telling the truth.


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## BachIsBest

ArtMusic said:


> UFO's are real. The universe is incomprehensibly large and humans love to think we are special/unique. How can one conclude that out of the billions of stars/planets, we are the only intelligent life? There are also very credible witnesses including astronauts, people in the army, commercial pilots, police etc. who would not make up stories but are telling the truth.


I think it is probably more likely than one would naively assume that we are the only intelligent life; it's hard to guess exactly how special we are. However, I still agree we are probably not alone.

What I have a bigger issue with is concluding based on these reports that there are UFOs from other planets. If I was told by someone that every single object ever seen by anyone in the sky was entirely, 100%, explainable directly from previously observed scientific phenomena I would be amazed. That would be incredible! Far more likely, in my view, is that we see things that have terrestrial explanations that we just don't know about.

I think we would all agree that we should examine possibilities in decreasing order of likelihood; the existence of an alien civilization so advanced that they defy manifold known laws of physics and frequently come to earth while never making official contact seems so extraordinarily unlikely that I would easily consider daytime hallucinations by otherwise sane individuals before it. As Carl Sagan once said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"; to put it simply, a bunch of scattered and infrequent eyewitness accounts along with distant and/or hazy photographs is hardly extraordinary evidence for extraterrestrial beings.


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## ArtMusic

The problem with Carl Sagan and many like him is simple: we don't know what we don't know - the unknown unknowns. Reasoning based on our logic and science have got us very far but that doesn't mean it can be extrapolated into the vastness of the universe. What I can say is men once thought the Earth was flat because he was limited to what he could see and reasoned thus far because it made sense to him at that point in time ....


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## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> UFO's are real. The universe is incomprehensibly large and humans love to think we are special/unique. How can one conclude that out of the billions of stars/planets, we are the only intelligent life? There are also very credible witnesses including astronauts, people in the army, commercial pilots, police etc. who would not make up stories but are telling the truth.


I don't think many knowledgeable people would say definitively that we are the only "intelligent" life. However, relativity and the very slow speed of light relative to the scale of the universe make it well-nigh impossible for another intelligent life form to travel far enough to encounter another. The bizarre schemes for traveling faster than the speed of light are just fever dreams, with no basis in verifiable science.


----------



## ArtMusic

Baron Scarpia said:


> I don't think many knowledgeable people would say definitively that we are the only "intelligent" life. However, relativity and the very slow speed of light relative to the scale of the universe make it well-nigh impossible for another intelligent life form to travel far enough to encounter another. The bizarre schemes for traveling faster than the speed of light are just fever dreams, with no basis in verifiable science.


Yes, I agree with "traveling faster than the speed of light are just fever dreams, with no basis in verifiable science." That is all based on our current understanding of the universe - our understanding of time, light, speed and traveling. That was why men once thought the Earth was flat, it was their understanding at that point in time based on what they knew.


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## Jacck

ArtMusic said:


> Yes, I agree with "traveling faster than the speed of light are just fever dreams, with no basis in verifiable science." That is all based on our current understanding of the universe - our understanding of time, light, speed and traveling. That was why men once thought the Earth was flat, it was their understanding at that point in time based on what they knew.


People believed that Earth is flat in prescientific times, ie before they started systematically experimenting and exploring by means of principles that evolved into the scientific method. There are thousands upon thousands of experiments that prove that the speed of light is finite and unsurpassable. There are theoretical reasons too, such as the whole structure of the Lorentz group. On the other hand, the propensity of the human species for magical thinking is a well established fact. Many people even today believe in astrology, homeopathy or QAnon. So what is more likely, that UFOs are extraterrestrial visitors or products of hoaxers and magical thought?


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## Ariasexta

> So what is more likely, that UFOs are extraterrestrial visitors or products of hoaxers and magical thought?


I highly have faith in the power of science that it can send people to the moon and Mars, also bring better life to humanity, and produce a lot of miraculous things including hoaxes and scams and get away with them.


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## Flamme

Im open to speculations that MAYBE E.T.-s have long time ago ''landed'' and made bases in hard to reach places, like the Poles, really deep under water and that basically they are ''earthlings'' from that moment...I remember reading about a case long time ago where ''RAT-LIKE'' aliens in an ufo shaped like a ''shell' told some shocked couple how they live for a long time in world oceans and seas...


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## Ariasexta

A scientific blogger in China posted an article last year：Can humanity have the power to destroy the Solar System? we have 6 potential technologies that can do it.

I posted an answer to that blog in my private chinese thread like this: 
"Nobody really doubts the power of science and stupidity, I do believe currently humanity already have enough technological power to destroy the whole Solar System as a piece of cake. What stops us from doing it is our surviving wisdom. "

Theoretically, Quantum physics can change our memories and have profound and detectable impact on the whole observable universe. Science can make humanity into the mimick God in their own definitions in mythology, so what? Similitude is not the same thing that we have been promised, science never fulfill its promises, all they offer is the pricy similitude.


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## Flamme

I dont think so...We are just a pebble in vastness of space, which is a creation bigger than anything and cannot be destroyed by its inhabitants, even if they wanted to...It will always go on...


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## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> I dont think so...We are just a pebble in vastness of space, which is a creation bigger than anything and cannot be destroyed by its inhabitants, even if they wanted to...It will always go on...


In fact, to a blind man, the world is dark, it is how we change our universe through self-destruction. As we destroy our space-time fabric through continued particle bombing and smashing, our observation of the universe would become distorted. In Quantem Mec, observation is connected to the condition of the observer in the microcosm, however, it could be the same case in macrocosm to the an apparent detectability. Our world, literary ourself is far more vulnerable than we can imagine.


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## Guest

ArtMusic said:


> Yes, I agree with "traveling faster than the speed of light are just fever dreams, with no basis in verifiable science." That is all based on our current understanding of the universe - our understanding of time, light, speed and traveling. That was why men once thought the Earth was flat, it was their understanding at that point in time based on what they knew.


To some approximation, the world is flat. If you never travel farther than the next village a flat earth is a good approximation. When civilization started to span great geographical distances the flat earth model failed, although it is a good approximation for many purposes, such as surveying your lawn. Similarly Newtonian mechanics is valid for everyday objects traveling at moderate speeds. It is a limiting case for special relativity at low velocity, and for quantum mechanics for large size and generally relativity for moderate mass concentrations. That's how it works for successful scientific paradigms. They are not discovered to be wrong, they are found to be the limiting case of a more general theory.

Special relativity has been tested and confirmed to velocities very close to the speed of light (in particle accelerators, etc). How will be find some regime where special relativity fails and yet a human being can create and survive such conditions? The various fantasies about wormholes would require unimaginable amounts of energy to create. Even if possible, how would be find such amounts of energy? Remember we have to figure it out before the human race goes extinct, which might not be so far off, the way things are going.


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## Flamme

Im even more REBELLIOUS, I believe in a HOLLOW EARTH...


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## Bwv 1080

Baron Scarpia said:


> I don't think many knowledgeable people would say definitively that we are the only "intelligent" life. However, relativity and the very slow speed of light relative to the scale of the universe make it well-nigh impossible for another intelligent life form to travel far enough to encounter another.


Not really, at very realistic sub-light speeds some alien civilization could have colonized the entire galaxy by now, hence the Fermi paradox.


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## BachIsBest

ArtMusic said:


> The problem with Carl Sagan and many like him is simple: we don't know what we don't know - the unknown unknowns. Reasoning based on our logic and science have got us very far but that doesn't mean it can be extrapolated into the vastness of the universe. What I can say is men once thought the Earth was flat because he was limited to what he could see and reasoned thus far because it made sense to him at that point in time ....


This argument amounts to: humanity was wrong before due to knowledge limitations, so I can just make stuff up and any logical argument against it is invalid because our knowledge could be limited. Unfortunately, I can't really use logic to argue against this...


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## Joe B

Flamme said:


> Im even more REBELLIOUS, I believe in a HOLLOW EARTH...


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## Luchesi

BachIsBest said:


> This argument amounts to: humanity was wrong before due to knowledge limitations, so I can just make stuff up and any logical argument against it is invalid because our knowledge could be limited. Unfortunately, I can't really use logic to argue against this...


Is the paradox really a paradox? when we ruminate about how many billions of years of very stable/protected conditions probably are needed for a manipulative intelligence to arise? Why does intelligence even evolve? since it's very energy intensive for little survival value, except in special cases like ours (climate change and shrinking 'accommodations' forcing us to migrate/adapt rapidly or die out). We should expect that this only happens very rarely (with necessitating all the other specific requirements within the Goldilocks zones, in a favorable part of a favorable galaxy, on and on).

Therefore there are intelligences out there but they are hundreds of thousands or millions of years and light years away from us. Maybe only one in every average-sized galaxy. How will we ever know anything about them? we're so far from them and so far out of phase in time. They might as well not exist at all!!

I could be wrong-headed about this… They should set us straight! - but if we were in their situation we probably wouldn't either..


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## ArtMusic

Jacck said:


> People believed that Earth is flat in prescientific times, ie before they started systematically experimenting and exploring by means of principles that evolved into the scientific method. There are thousands upon thousands of experiments that prove that the speed of light is finite and unsurpassable. There are theoretical reasons too, such as the whole structure of the Lorentz group. On the other hand, the propensity of the human species for magical thinking is a well established fact. Many people even today believe in astrology, homeopathy or QAnon. So what is more likely, that UFOs are extraterrestrial visitors or products of hoaxers and magical thought?


I wouldn't be so closed minded to say that science has the only answer when there are credible witnesses including astronauts who have openly stated they have seen UFO's.


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## ArtMusic

BachIsBest said:


> This argument amounts to: humanity was wrong before due to knowledge limitations, so I can just make stuff up and any logical argument against it is invalid because our knowledge could be limited. Unfortunately, I can't really use logic to argue against this...


No need to use logic on this topic, just be open minded ....


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## Strange Magic

> Luchesi: " Why does intelligence even evolve? since it's very energy intensive for little survival value, except in special cases like ours (climate change and shrinking 'accommodations' forcing us to migrate/adapt rapidly or die out)."


Intelligence does not appear to offer any particular survival benefit: socially intelligent birds (parrots, corvids), cetaceans, certain canids, viverrids, etc. are not doing noticeably better than the general run of fauna. Socially complex insect societies have evolved a separate path that does not rely upon intelligence as usually defined. Primate (human) intelligence has resulted in a metastatic increase in human populations and such massive and rapid disruption of energy and material flows within the biosphere that there is a real danger of the collapse of the global ecosystem to a state of much earlier lack of complexity.

It may be the case, as has been postulated by several thinkers on this subject, that intelligence is thus self-limiting, perhaps throughout the entire galaxy or galaxies, wherever and whenever it arises.


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## Bwv 1080

ArtMusic said:


> I wouldn't be so closed minded to say that science has the only answer when there are credible witnesses including astronauts who have openly stated they have seen UFO's.


Science is the only way to answer the question and it lacks sufficient evidence to do so. Lots of people see lots of things, eyewitness testimony does not constitute proof for aliens, bigfoot or ghosts


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## Bwv 1080

Strange Magic said:


> Intelligence does not appear to offer any particular survival benefit.


Then why are we the dominant species, inhabiting every onshore ecosystem on the planet?


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## Strange Magic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Then why are we the dominant species, inhabiting every onshore ecosystem on the planet?


Enjoy it while it lasts! We may very well be the architects not only of our own destruction but may take down a lot of our fellow passengers with us when we fall. Oh, wait, that process is well under way already.


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## Bwv 1080

Strange Magic said:


> Enjoy it while it lasts! We may very well be the architects not only of our own destruction but may take down a lot of our fellow passengers with us when we fall. Oh, wait, that process is well under way already.


That may be so, but we will go down on top!


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## Strange Magic

Bwv 1080 said:


> That may be so, but we will go down on top!


What gives the situation the full gravitas of a Greek tragedy on a global scale is that our intelligence, properly used and guided by logic and experience, theoretically allows us to postulate an alternative future wherein a wise humanity functions as the curator of a unique planetary Spaceship Earth. We have the mental tools and the science to instruct us on how best to limit our numbers and our capacities for altering the environment such that a modest population of rationally-guided primates such as ourselves ensure that large percentages of the biosphere enjoy a function free of massive human intervention.

A lot to ask for!


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## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> Intelligence does not appear to offer any particular survival benefit: socially intelligent birds (parrots, corvids), cetaceans, certain canids, viverrids, etc. are not doing noticeably better than the general run of fauna. Socially complex insect societies have evolved a separate path that does not rely upon intelligence as usually defined. Primate (human) intelligence has resulted in a metastatic increase in human populations and such massive and rapid disruption of energy and material flows within the biosphere that there is a real danger of the collapse of the global ecosystem to a state of much earlier lack of complexity.
> 
> It may be the case, as has been postulated by several thinkers on this subject, that intelligence is thus self-limiting, perhaps throughout the entire galaxy or galaxies, wherever and whenever it arises.


Yes, the AI-like problem-solving and 'accidental' longterm survival outcomes of bees and ants should be more prevalent than our type of intelligence.


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## Strange Magic

Luchesi said:


> Yes, the AI-like problem-solving and 'accidental' longterm survival outcomes of bees and ants should be more prevalent than our type of intelligence.


Robert Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ has a militantly expansive humankind at war with a sort of arthropod alien species. It's Us against Them. We win, of course. But would we really?


----------



## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> What gives the situation the full gravitas of a Greek tragedy on a global scale is that our intelligence, properly used and guided by logic and experience, theoretically allows us to postulate an alternative future wherein a wise humanity functions as the curator of a unique planetary Spaceship Earth. We have the mental tools and the science to instruct us on how best to limit our numbers and our capacities for altering the environment such that a modest population of rationally-guided primates such as ourselves ensure that large percentages of the biosphere enjoy a function free of massive human intervention.
> 
> A lot to ask for!


Yes, because of the manner in which we evolved by being territorial (irrationally so) and ritualistic (superstitious) leading to tribalism etc. Other candidates out there like this? Is there another pathway? in the time available for stable and favorable happenstances?


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## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> Robert Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ has a militantly expansive humankind at war with a sort of arthropod alien species. It's Us against Them. We win, of course. But would we really?


We chordates almost didn't 'win' against the arthropods and mollusks on THIS planet.


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## KenOC

Luchesi said:


> Yes, because of the manner in which we evolved by being territorial (irrationally so) and ritualistic...


Our territoriality and tribalism is irrational? Those of a Darwinian bent might disagree...


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## Strange Magic

KenOC said:


> Our territoriality and tribalism is irrational? Those of a Darwinian bent might disagree...


How so? Are territoriality and tribalism rational?


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## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> Our territoriality and tribalism is irrational? Those of a Darwinian bent might disagree...


heh There are degrees.. The tribalisms that politicians nuture for their own tiny, selfish careers are IMO irrational.

You and I as white people hope that our great grandchildren will be treated more fairly, but those new politicians will need some strategy to get votes. It's wholly human, so it never ends..


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## ArtMusic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Science is the only way to answer the question and it lacks sufficient evidence to do so. Lots of people see lots of things, eyewitness testimony does not constitute proof for aliens, bigfoot or ghosts


That's why we are stuck because on square one, the premise is there is only one approach to this question (science) and all else doesn't count. Nothing can be more closed minded than this. If there are 1,000,000,000 (one billion) planets out there, and 10 of those are stable Earth-like including ours, that means for any given planet, it is extremely unlikely to be stable, right? 99.999999% chance - extremely unlikely, yet the 10 are still out there.

Just like science only a few decades ago thought nothing could live in the depths of our own ocean where there is no sunlight using reasoning then, or the depths of the frozen ices in Antarctica again based on scientific reasoning then. Only science knows, right? All the time, right? I'm glad I'm not close minded.

Edit: based on the evidence of life living in Earth's deep oceans and frozen ices, you could extrapolate there may well be life (although not necessarily intelligent life) on other planets that owe nothing to the sun.


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## Ich muss Caligari werden

The phrase "intelligent life" almost always makes me laugh. I think we overrate ourselves, just as we did in Pre-Copernican days when we thought we were the center of the universe. For one thing, our awareness of what constitutes life is too-human, all-too-human-conditioned; I believe that two of the biggest discoveries of the 21st century will be that life merits a considerably broader definition and that in order to learn more about ourselves and the universe, we will learn to think outside of our "human box." And yes, some of this view is Nietzsche-influenced; he once said there is more life in death and death in life than we can know.


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## Bwv 1080

ArtMusic said:


> That's why we are stuck because on square one, the premise is there is only one approach to this question (science) and all else doesn't count. Nothing can be more closed minded than this. If there are 1,000,000,000 (one billion) planets out there, and 10 of those are stable Earth-like including ours, that means for any given planet, it is extremely unlikely to be stable, right? 99.999999% chance - extremely unlikely, yet the 10 are still out there.
> 
> Just like science only a few decades ago thought nothing could live in the depths of our own ocean where there is no sunlight using reasoning then, or the depths of the frozen ices in Antarctica again based on scientific reasoning then. Only science knows, right? All the time, right? I'm glad I'm not close minded.
> 
> Edit: based on the evidence of life living in Earth's deep oceans and frozen ices, you could extrapolate there may well be life (although not necessarily intelligent life) on other planets that owe nothing to the sun.


Right, so we know all those things are real because of science, thanks for proving my point for me


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## ArtMusic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Right, so we know all those things are real because of science, thanks for proving my point for me


No, I did not do that. I was saying science was wrong on many key points - including being wrong on the existence of life in the depths of our oceans and in the frozen ice. Science is critical but not right on everything because we don't know what we don't know.


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## Bwv 1080

ArtMusic said:


> No, I did not do that. I was saying science was wrong on many key points - including being wrong on the existence of life in the depths of our oceans and in the frozen ice. Science is critical but not right on everything because we don't know what we don't know.


Right, the reason you know past science was wrong is .... wait for it...... current science


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## ArtMusic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Right, the reason you know past science was wrong is .... wait for it...... current science


I think I am proven my point in my posts above then  - science is important, of course it explains much; but not all, it has been very wrong on simple things like whether there is life in places on earth. Never be close minded.


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## Strange Magic

ArtMusic said:


> I think I am proven my point in my posts above then  - science is important, of course it explains much; but not all, it has been very wrong on simple things like whether there is life in places on earth. Never be close minded.


This may come as a shock to some, but the way science works is continually look for and accept new data, new input, and thus "refresh". So it is often wrong, but then, as Bwv 1080 notes, it corrects, coming asymptotically closer to a better understanding of reality. It is the very opposite of close-mindedness, unlike so many other human intellectual endeavors. it discovers new facts in wonder and excitement, even a crazy, insane idea that there is life at the bottom of the sea. There even may be life on Mars, and we'll believe it when we see/detect it.


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## ArtMusic

It might be a while though when that's detected, not least because of scientific reasons but because of the social-political-economic reasons why research efforts should/shouldn't be diverted to finding life on Mars (say). So, keep waiting ....


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## Ariasexta

Pure science is OK but rarely science does not try to adulterate with ideological propagandas. Sadly it has become an exclusive priviledge for western bourgeoisies to enjoy science without being forced with ideologies, funny thing is that many western people even try to force some garbages on themself. If we can not keep science safe from vested-interests, people should have a choice not to be forced with anything without being threatened with consequences. 

Kardashev Civilization Scale is a good example of the pseudoscience selling political agendas. To judge the civilizational advancement purely based on the amount of the comsumption of energy, and Karl Marx Sagan invented a math to tell us we need to consume our own Sun in order to advance to the first scale of civilization and half of the Milk Way to become the second scale member... This theory reminds me of the worst cartoons pretending to be funny with the most boring plots and repulsive characters. Sometimes, pseudoscience is not even wrong, just an out-right disinformative propaganda.


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## Ariasexta

The Ten Commendments God could be Satan.


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## Strange Magic

I too hate pseudoscience, almost as much as I hate random pseudophilosophical-historical babbling carried on _ad infinitum_. Hate 'em all!


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## Ariasexta

OK, I apologize, I promise will never return to this forum anymore. I hope I can exchange my permanent stop of ps-philosophy preaching with your commitern garbages not dumping anywhere near my country. Actually I am not angry with anyone, just truly busy now, hating blaming no one here. I also stopped my chinese blog earlier today, a synchronicity maybe?:tiphat:


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## ArtMusic

Ariasexta said:


> Pure science is OK but rarely science does not try to adulterate with ideological propagandas. Sadly it has become an exclusive priviledge for western bourgeoisies to enjoy science without being forced with ideologies, funny thing is that many western people even try to force some garbages on themself. If we can not keep science safe from vested-interests, people should have a choice not to be forced with anything without being threatened with consequences.
> 
> Kardashev Civilization Scale is a good example of the pseudoscience selling political agendas. To judge the civilizational advancement purely based on the amount of the comsumption of energy, and Karl Marx Sagan invented a math to tell us we need to consume our own Sun in order to advance to the first scale of civilization and half of the Milk Way to become the second scale member... This theory reminds me of the worst cartoons pretending to be funny with the most boring plots and repulsive characters. Sometimes, pseudoscience is not even wrong, just an out-right disinformative propaganda.


The Magician in your Life that is you loves aliens!


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## Luchesi

ArtMusic said:


> The Magician in your Life that is you loves aliens!


what does that mean?


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## Ariasexta

I was considering getting off all the internet forums permanently, it is a part of my planned self-training, the forums like this one are very fun to read and join. I got used to all kinds of ridicules since speaking about metaphysics, many supported me also many also ridiculed me, routine. Here I have gotten the most encouragement already so that I almost forgot how the situation used to be

I created something I call the magic, combining science with some other things designed for universal understanding of some important matters, also avoiding occultism and elitism, but nothing really worthy comes out so far, hopefully, not for too long.


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## Strange Magic

Perhaps we are on the verge of witnessing the creation of a Scriabinesque _New Mysterium_. It may be worth walking many miles to see, hear, smell, taste, touch, and grok.


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## Luchesi

Ariasexta said:


> I was considering getting off all the internet forums permanently, it is a part of my planned self-training, the forums like this one are very fun to read and join. I got used to all kinds of ridicules since speaking about metaphysics, many supported me also many also ridiculed me, routine. Here I have gotten the most encouragement already so that I almost forgot how the situation used to be
> 
> I created something I call the magic, combining science with some other things designed for universal understanding of some important matters, also avoiding occultism and elitism, but nothing really worthy comes out so far, hopefully, not for too long.


New age magical talk is so often just a fad. 'Comes and goes. There's so much to learn which is evidence-based and falsifiable that people on fora usually react negatively to such youthful, idealistic ideas. Learning about how weather works will be time well spent for the next 50 years at least. We need more people on the planet with a working knowledge of how the insufficient outflow we humans are setting up will go through its transitions. This is real, this is dangerous AND uninformed folks will fight against what they must do to save the favorable regional climates. Learning dynamic meteorology will take you a few years, but it's very rewarding.


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## Ariasexta

Luchesi said:


> New age magical talk is so often just a fad. 'Comes and goes. There's so much to learn which is evidence-based and falsifiable that people on fora usually react negatively to such youthful, idealistic ideas. Learning about how weather works will be time well spent for the next 50 years at least. We need more people on the planet with a working knowledge of how the insufficient outflow we humans are setting up will go through its transitions. This is real, this is dangerous AND uninformed folks will fight against what they must do to save the favorable regional climates. Learning dynamic meteorology will take you a few years, but it's very rewarding.


I think I have discovered something that seems to connect pure philosophy with math, but it could be my ignorant delusion after all, all my elaborate 1500s philosophizations are also meant to be a long process of disillusionment of myself for I know the aptitude toward delusions in a common man is his most vulnerable ego when contending for greatness. These self made aphorisms will continue as long as I live but only in my notebooks. My theory could sound mesmerizing to common people, like my aphorisms, my sixth sense tells me this theory has consequences. If you are interested, wlecomed to China I will talk in person only.

Dynamics and Fractals are interesting math frontier topics, one can not evade metereology when learning dynamics . There are smogs in my own small town too, before the metereological struggle, we have the massive evacuation of the prestine land in China. In 2018 I cited an article with Time Sequence Analysis methods and datas on my chinese blog showing how chinese development impacts on Brazilian forestation health. The result was dismal and confirmative. That blog was deleted after 2 months like most of my blog materials. Global Warming thing is controversial, I am considering many possible explanations while refusing to self-contain my own imagination. I never mean to demean science, just why self-contain ones own imaginations as a free man. Iv read that the whole planets in Solar System show atmospheric changes and electromagnetic changes in those who have it since 2000AD, and the causes of Climate Change are obviously more complex than man-made impacts.


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## Flamme

TK enjoys your musings dont go aria sexta...


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## Ariasexta

Flamme said:


> TK enjoys your musings dont go aria sexta...


Thank U, but I seem to have a mild symptom of web-addiction. I never used to be like this, also never play any computer and online games, will never too. Recently I started to read garbage news and tableaux.. But those musings were not of lost of control, but carefully selected and deliberated. Anyway, I do need sometime to clear my mind now, for music and potentially interesting things, I could break my promises here and only here.


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## ArtMusic

Ariasexta said:


> .... and potentially interesting things, I could break my promises here and only here.


Of course, UFO's and aliens for example.


----------



## Roger Knox

I've always wondered, if aliens land would we shoot to kill? I noticed this news item recently about a bill submitted in the Oklahoma legislature to regulate hunting for *Bigfoot*:

"State Rep. Justin Humphrey, a Republican, submitted the bill on Wednesday in the hope that it will come into effect on Nov. 1...The bill calls for the Oklahoma Wildlife Conservation Commission (OWCC) to establish a hunting season for the human-like beast of legend, though it doesn't go too deep into specifics. 'The Commission shall set annual season dates and create any necessary specific hunting licenses and fees, the bill reads."

The bill is supposed to encourage tourism to the Representative's district!? I would stay away, as over-refreshed hunters have been known to shoot at cows, humans, opening doors, or other moving targets. And there wouldn't necessarily be time to examine the size of the creature's feet ... Here's my warning to tourists in Oklahoma: "Heads up!"

Having grown up in British Columbia I'm familiar with Bigfoot's cousin, the Sasquatch. Whether it's the Sasquatch, Bigfoot or aliens, why would the OWCC expect any paranormal creature to be aggressive -- shouldn't we be loving them if they're so important? Another question: While I'm familiar with the notion that tourists are suckers, are we now assuming that they are stupid too? Because of all paranormal phenomena, Bigfoot and Sasquatch have always been at the bottom end of the food chain, the ones on the late, unlamented _Weekly World News's_ cover in the lowest rack of dime store magazines.


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## ArtMusic

Don't hunt any Bigfoot/Sasquatch, just like we shouldn't hunt any primate animals/animals. When you look into the eyes of a Chimpanzee or a Mountain Gorilla, you recognize their eyes as that of a common ancestor with ours.


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## BachIsBest

ArtMusic said:


> Don't hunt any Bigfoot/Sasquatch, just like we shouldn't hunt any primate animals/animals. When you look into the eyes of a Chimpanzee or a Mountain Gorilla, you recognize their eyes as that of a common ancestor with ours.


I mean, I hate to throw this out here, but Bigfoot almost certainly isn't real...


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## ArtMusic

BachIsBest said:


> I mean, I hate to throw this out here, but Bigfoot almost certainly isn't real...


I think they are real, probably few are left now, they are dying out.


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## Dan Ante

BachIsBest said:


> I mean, I hate to throw this out here, but Bigfoot almost certainly isn't real...


Hmmm you have coverd your self both ways. Personaly I would say Bigfoot is thousands of times times more likly to exist than beings in a UFO.


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## joen_cph

ArtMusic said:


> I think they are real, probably few are left now, they are dying out.


A recent, more scientific approach to the Yeti legends in Asia indicates that they are local bears, simply.


----------



## Roger Knox

According to Global News a Sasquatch sighting in British Columbia on Dec, 25, 2020 was checked out by the Bigfoot Okanagan group and they reported in the local paper The Valley Voice to be a moose. They checked the undisturbed deep snow tracks right down to ground level to see the moose prints.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7581497/b-c-bigfoot-sighting-moose-tracks/

I don't want to derail the thread from UFOs. In other news (CNN), apparently the huge late December coronavirus relief and government funding bill includes a 180-day timeline for American intelligence agencies to report to Congress on their knowledge of UFO's. That fits the previous administration's general theme of governments hiding things from us.

Bigfoot or UFO sightings will keep being reported because you can't prove a negative -- no matter how many don't pan out there could always be another that does.


----------



## ArtMusic

joen_cph said:


> A recent, more scientific approach to the Yeti legends in Asia indicates that they are local bears, simply.


I don't know about Asia but in North America the Sasquatch likely exists but in small populations as a dying species.


----------



## Flamme

Ariasexta said:


> The Ten Commendments God could be Satan.


Luuv these statements...Truly groundbreaking!!!


----------



## Luchesi

Everything is God, but anything could be Satan. That's what religions talk about.


----------



## Bwv 1080

ArtMusic said:


> I don't know about Asia but in North America the Sasquatch likely exists but in small populations as a dying species.


Nearly impossible that a large primate could exist in North America without leaving a shred of physical evidence


----------



## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


> Nearly impossible that a large primate could exist in North America without leaving a shred of physical evidence


Or just maybe we're the amusement park in this part of the galaxy! Very famous!

They gathered up many Paranthropus robustus long long ago and now they drop them off -- and then transport them away again - along with all the evidence. This has the standard tried and true effect of stirring the imaginations of interesting pets like us! 
It's kinda expensive but they all chip in. There's a galactic budget for these operations. lol


----------



## SixFootScowl

ArtMusic said:


> I don't know about Asia but in North America the Sasquatch likely exists but in small populations as a dying species.


Or perhaps did exist as such and has already died off.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Luchesi said:


> Everything is God, but anything could be Satan. That's what religions talk about.


Religions? None that I am familiar with. Maybe eastern religions. Not Christianity.


----------



## Luchesi

SixFootScowl said:


> Religions? None that I am familiar with. Maybe eastern religions. Not Christianity.


I don't think we're allowed to talk about specific religions, because some posters might get their feelings hurt, and leave the forum.


----------



## ArtMusic

SixFootScowl said:


> Or perhaps did exist as such and has already died off.


Yes, that is possible. Fascinating that such large primates have existed before, maybe recently in evolution times.


----------



## geralmar




----------



## Roger Knox

Luchesi said:


> I don't think we're allowed to talk about specific religions, because some posters might get their feelings hurt, and leave the forum.


Well, I can see why posts about religions on the thread called UFOs: Threat or Menace? might be felt a tad disrespectful. But then, I've heard a lecture on _E.T._ as a Judeo-Christian movie. So therefore I'm confused.


----------



## EdwardBast

ArtMusic said:


> I don't know about Asia but in North America the Sasquatch likely exists but in small populations as a dying species.


If Sasquatch existed they would be raiding people's garbage cans, just like bears, raccoons, and hungry humans do, or foraging among human crops like thousands of other species do. The lure of easy calories is irresistible. Not to mention there would be remains and a fossil record.


----------



## KenOC

ArtMusic said:


> Yes, that is possible. Fascinating that such large primates have existed before, maybe recently in evolution times.


Actually large bipedal animals resembling humans or apes are quite rare in the fossil record, with no remains ever uncovered in the Western hemisphere. Aside from gorillas in Africa and orangutans in South Asia, I know of only one other example:

Gigantopithecus was a massive, gorilla-like ape living in Asia in the Pleistocene, becoming extinct about 300,000 years ago. Few remains are known so we can only speculate about how large it was, mostly extrapolated from its teeth. Height estimates are in the 9 foot range and its weight is thought to have exceeded 600 pounds. It is not in the human line of evolution but is probably more closely related to orangutans.

The likelihood of such animals wandering our forests or hiding out in caverns beneath Mt. Shasta (as one version of the story goes) seems, unhappily, remote.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

A science museum at Washington State University periodically features an exhibit of very, very big foot-print castings . I have seen it . The creature that made these prints in the forest has no name . First , it needs a biological classification . The castings were collected over the years and through-out the Pacific NW region by a WSU scientist . He could reasonably observe the creature was 2-legged with a long stride and with a physical weight of ~700 lbs .

A cousin of mine reads books about Bigfoot and believes everything . She says there exists a world-wide Council of Bigfoot , of twelve individuals , and they meet now and then . Skeptical of that . It sounds Jewish New Age . But I want an invitation to a Council , even if its just a more local thing . I have an idea how that could happen . Yes , it has an essential musical aspect .


----------



## Strange Magic

There are also the problems of the need for an abundant food supply and for reasonably clement weather for both the Yeti of the Himalaya and the Sasquatch of the Pacific Northwest. Neither of these terranes are conducive to maintaining a large bipedal primate without an elaborate social structure.


----------



## ArtMusic

EdwardBast said:


> If Sasquatch existed they would be raiding people's garbage cans, just like bears, raccoons, and hungry humans do, or foraging among human crops ....


There are witnesses who claim that.


----------



## ArtMusic

KenOC said:


> Actually large bipedal animals resembling humans or apes are quite rare in the fossil record, with no remains ever uncovered in the Western hemisphere. Aside from gorillas in Africa and orangutans in South Asia, I know of only one other example:
> 
> Gigantopithecus was a massive, gorilla-like ape living in Asia in the Pleistocene, becoming extinct about 300,000 years ago. Few remains are known so we can only speculate about how large it was, mostly extrapolated from its teeth. Height estimates are in the 9 foot range and its weight is thought to have exceeded 600 pounds. It is not in the human line of evolution but is probably more closely related to orangutans.
> 
> The likelihood of such animals wandering our forests or hiding out in caverns beneath Mt. Shasta (as one version of the story goes) seems, unhappily, remote.


I agree, which makes it possible that Sasquatch are a dying out species.


----------



## ArtMusic

"Impossible" stones are all over the planet, especially at Puma Punku strongly suggesting ancient technology to carve and to transport.


----------



## Bwv 1080

ArtMusic said:


> "Impossible" stones are all over the planet, especially at Puma Punku strongly suggesting ancient technology to carve and to transport.


Ancient aliens is racist bulls##t, basically making the argument that these dark-skinned people werent smart enough to build pyramids or whatever.


----------



## ArtMusic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Ancient aliens is racist bulls##t, basically making the argument that these dark-skinned people werent smart enough to build pyramids or whatever.


:lol: I read/hear comments like that day to day about everything in society. It's what universities teach now, sadly.


----------



## Luchesi

Roger Knox said:


> Well, I can see why posts about religions on the thread called UFOs: Threat or Menace? might be felt a tad disrespectful. But then, I've heard a lecture on _E.T._ as a Judeo-Christian movie. So therefore I'm confused.


 There's a whole world of religions out there. It's an interesting thing about humans, faith.

What would happen if they all believed in one religious dogma and explanation, worldwide? How would that change things? It might be interesting to aliens too! because they might have smething like that going on in their civilization, even in their advanced state. 'So many reasons for religious thoughts, so they might have them too.

Maybe humans fit into their religious views?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Luchesi said:


> There's a whole world of religions out there. It's an interesting thing about humans, faith.
> 
> What would happen if they all believed in one religious dogma and explanation, worldwide? How would that change things? It might be interesting to aliens too! because they might have smething like that going on in their civilization, even in their advanced state. 'So many reasons for religious thoughts, so they might have them too.
> 
> Maybe humans fit into their religious views?


There are many religions but only one truth. How much any of the religions hit upon truth is highly variable.


----------



## KenOC

Luchesi said:


> ...What would happen if they all believed in one religious dogma and explanation, worldwide?


Within 5 minutes -- a schism! :lol:


----------



## Luchesi

SixFootScowl said:


> There are many religions but only one truth. How much any of the religions hit upon truth is highly variable.


Could aliens find that truth? ...probably not..


----------



## Luchesi

KenOC said:


> Within 5 minutes -- a schism! :lol:


You of so little faith..


----------



## SixFootScowl

KenOC said:


> Within 5 minutes -- a schism! :lol:


Not if they enforce it on penalty of nasty death like was done for about 1000 years.


----------



## mikeh375

The alien's 'truth' may be truer than the human multiple choice versions, who knows.


----------



## Strange Magic

SixFootScowl said:


> Not if they enforce it on penalty of nasty death like was done for about 1000 years.


Make that at least 3,300 years at a very minimum. From the crushing of the Amarna religion in ancient Egypt until, say, yesterday somewhere in Pakistan, is at least 3,300 years.


----------



## Bwv 1080

ArtMusic said:


> :lol: I read/hear comments like that day to day about everything in society. It's what universities teach now, sadly.


Well would look to universities, flawed as they are, as a better source of ancient history than this guy

In reality, no archeology requires an explanation that 'aliens dun it'


----------



## Flamme

Now what can this be...


----------



## geralmar




----------



## ArtMusic

Bwv 1080 said:


> Well would look to universities, flawed as they are, as a better source of ancient history than this guy
> 
> In reality, no archeology requires an explanation that 'aliens dun it'
> 
> View attachment 149819


Yeah he is racist right? Only aliens are smart enough to build it but dumb humans in Egypt are not ... lol that's what the universities and fellow smart students would accuse. :lol:


----------



## Jacck

Bwv 1080 said:


> Well would look to universities, flawed as they are, as a better source of ancient history than this guy
> 
> In reality, no archeology requires an explanation that 'aliens dun it'
> 
> View attachment 149819


this guy is insane. I watched a couple of the Ancient Aliens episodes when it was new. Nice scifi for a while, but then it got repetitive and boring. The pseudodocumentary got so popular among some people, that serious historian were forced to publish 3 hours of Ancient Aliens Debunked
https://archive.org/details/AncientAliensDebunked


----------



## Flamme

Hes making a nice buck tho...https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show...FyySF0gzAShHAsaWYFobSClr_ElL_F5t5sYpyU_IK23h4


----------



## Bwv 1080

Jacck said:


> this guy is insane. I watched a couple of the Ancient Aliens episodes when it was new. Nice scifi for a while, but then it got repetitive and boring. The pseudodocumentary got so popular among some people, that serious historian were forced to publish 3 hours of Ancient Aliens Debunked
> https://archive.org/details/AncientAliensDebunked


Yes, just a rehash of this trash written by a convicted felon


----------



## Flamme

Convicted fellon?


----------



## Bwv 1080

Flamme said:


> Convicted fellon?


In November 1968 von Däniken was arrested for fraud, after falsifying hotel records and credit references in order to take out loans[9] for $130,000 over a period of twelve years. He used the money for foreign travel to research his book.[6] Two years later,[9] von Däniken was convicted for "repeated and sustained" embezzlement, fraud, and forgery, with the court ruling that the writer had been living a "playboy" lifestyle.[13] He unsuccessfully entered a plea of nullity, on the grounds that his intentions were not malicious and that the credit institutions were at fault for failing adequately to research his references,[6][9][13] and on 13 February 1970 he was sentenced to three and a half years imprisonment and was also fined 3,000 francs.[9][14] He served one year of this sentence before being released.[6][15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Däniken


----------



## Jacck

Bwv 1080 said:


> Yes, just a rehash of this trash written by a convicted felon


yes, I am familiar with Däniken, Sitchin etc. I am somewhat more sympathetic to some theories of prehistoric civilizations existing before the cataclysmic Younger Dryas events, like this paper about Göbekli Tepe
http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf
or other structures like Sacsayhuamán (how and why they move these insanely heavy rocks and how did they fit them so tightly


----------



## Bwv 1080

Jacck said:


> yes, I am familiar with Däniken, Sitchin etc. I am somjewhat more sympathetic to some theories of prehistoric civilizations existing before the cataclysmic Younger Dryas events, like this paper about Göbekli Tepe
> http://maajournal.com/Issues/2017/Vol17-1/Sweatman and Tsikritsis 17(1).pdf
> or other structures like Sacsayhuamán (how and why they move these insanely heavy rocks and how did they fit them so tightly


In general I think people underestimate the resourcefulness and sophistication of hunter gatherers - after all they are us


----------



## ArtMusic

Jacck said:


> this guy is insane. I watched a couple of the Ancient Aliens episodes when it was new. Nice scifi for a while, but then it got repetitive and boring. The pseudodocumentary got so popular among some people, that serious historian were forced to publish 3 hours of Ancient Aliens Debunked
> https://archive.org/details/AncientAliensDebunked


He has the courage to state what he thinks on aliens. Most would think he is crazy, as seen in the last several posts above. Funny, humanity hasn't changed much when you put forth open-minded questions and theories.


----------



## Luchesi

ArtMusic said:


> He has the courage to state what he thinks on aliens. Most would think he is crazy, as seen in the last several posts above. Funny, humanity hasn't changed much when you put forth open-minded questions and theories.


 Archaeologists spend many decades of their lives writing up technical findings and then these guys come in, they don't consult the technical journals and they write bad books to make money. It doesn't matter if their guesses are sincere.


----------



## ArtMusic

Luchesi said:


> Archaeologists spend many decades of their lives writing up technical findings and then these guys come in, they don't consult the technical journals and they write bad books to make money. It doesn't matter if their guesses are sincere.


Archaeologists are also dogmatic and get things wrong, very wrong.


----------



## Strange Magic

ArtMusic said:


> Archaeologists are also dogmatic and get things wrong, very wrong.


That's very often how real science works. Things are examined, with varying degrees of thoroughness, an hypothesis put forward, and sometimes accepted perhaps for years. Further work. using more accurate tools and methods, reveals more data and/or better data, and the hypothesis is replaced or revised. Always inching forward, with sharing of data, open communication, and ongoing skepticism finally shrinking away as the picture grows ever clearer. Best we can do, really. And not bad either, given time.

Certainly somewhat easier in some sciences more than others. Also, science is a human activity, with all the psycho-social factors that that involves. Most people find it's much easier to believe something, though, if it has "truthiness", and they heard it from somebody else who told them to believe it, or it seems cool, or makes them feel better.


----------



## EdwardBast

Luchesi said:


> Archaeologists spend many decades of their lives writing up technical findings and then these guys come in, they don't consult the technical journals and they write bad books to make money. *It doesn't matter if their guesses are sincere.*


+1 - Sincere con artists are the worst kind.


----------



## EdwardBast

ArtMusic said:


> There are witnesses who claim that.


And not a single one of them had a working camera, whereas somehow bears and raccoons appear in hundreds of videos and photos. Strange that, no?


----------



## ArtMusic

EdwardBast said:


> And not a single one of them had a working camera, whereas somehow bears and raccoons appear in hundreds of videos and photos. Strange that, no?


Not strange at all. I trust the words of astronauts and officers more than I do a flimsy camera. There are billions of planets out there, and it is outdated and close minded to think Earth is the only one special.


----------



## Strange Magic

"Who you gonna believe? Me, or your lyin' eyes?" Richard Pryor, as I recall.


----------



## SixFootScowl

ArtMusic said:


> Not strange at all. I trust the words of astronauts and officers more than I do a flimsy camera. *There are billions of planets out there*, and it is outdated and close minded to think Earth is the only one special.


Billions? That seems to be more an assumption than a fact.


----------



## Tikoo Tuba

We are life specifically of this special earth . I may reason this is a universal condition .


----------



## Dan Ante

This is a very interesting video by Prof Brian Cox and his summery about intelligent life in our Galaxy (the last few minutes) the video is 6 years old.


----------



## Luchesi

This guy has a lot to say about the concept of aliens. Fun stuff.


----------



## NoCoPilot

ArtMusic said:


> There are billions of planets out there, and it is outdated and close minded to think Earth is the only one special.


And they are mostly _billions _of light years away. It is terribly unscientific to think that they somehow circumvented the laws of physics to come give us colonoscopies.


----------



## Bwv 1080

SixFootScowl said:


> Billions? That seems to be more an assumption than a fact.


About 4000 extrasolar planets have been found out to a distance of around 25K light years. The Milky Way is about 100K LY in diameter, and there are a hundreds of billions of galaxies, so the number of planets is easily in the trillions


----------



## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


> About 4000 extrasolar planets have been found out to a distance of around 25K light years. The Milky Way is about 100K LY in diameter, and there are a hundreds of billions of galaxies, so the number of planets is easily in the trillions


They're up to about 4 trillion galaxies now.


----------



## Bwv 1080

Luchesi said:


> They're up to about 4 trillion galaxies now.


Or not

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpos...the-number-of-galaxies-in-universe-655425/amp


----------



## Dan Ante

Luchesi said:


> This guy has a lot to say about the concept of aliens. Fun stuff.


I shall watch this to night, thanks.


----------



## ArtMusic

SixFootScowl said:


> Billions? That seems to be more an assumption than a fact.


How many do you think there are out there? Or is it: "I don't know".


----------



## SixFootScowl

ArtMusic said:


> How many do you think there are out there? Or is it: "I don't know".





Bwv 1080 said:


> About 4000 extrasolar planets have been found out to a distance of around 25K light years. The Milky Way is about 100K LY in diameter, and there are a hundreds of billions of galaxies, so the number of planets is easily in the trillions


Using indirect methods of determining the presence of planets to far away to be seen (their reflected light would be far too dim compared to their parent star), means that we don't have certainty. So at best the number is an estimate.


----------



## Strange Magic

SixFootScowl said:


> Using indirect methods of determining the presence of planets to far away to be seen (their reflected light would be far too dim compared to their parent star), means that we don't have certainty. So at best the number is an estimate.


Yes. It is/there are estimates. What is remarkable and energizing is that astronomers have devised so many interesting and quite understandable methods for inferring that planets circle certain stars. If it is certainty one is looking for in the count of the number of planets in either our galaxy or the universe as a whole, A) that is not achievable, and B) is it important to be certain of that number? So we can very cheerfully content ourselves with estimates and with understanding of how those estimates are derived. Certainty is not something science offers--an approach to certainty, surely, but not certainty.


----------



## Bwv 1080

SixFootScowl said:


> Using indirect methods of determining the presence of planets to far away to be seen (their reflected light would be far too dim compared to their parent star), means that we don't have certainty. So at best the number is an estimate.


Observing planets through their gravitational effects is a real, direct observation, nothing magic about being able to see something in the wavelength of visible light through a telescope


----------



## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


> Or not
> 
> Thanks, I think this will be a debate for a while. The project that went to Pluto saw skies that were 10 times darker than what the Hubble telescope can see around here (light pollution from our planet and illuminated dust), so that's very interesting.
> 
> More than the 5500 galaxies found by the Hubble project (deep sky) multiplied by the 32 million similar sections of the sky comes out to 176 billion galaxies.
> But that's not an estimate; that's a lower limit. The earliest galaxies were small and as they were colliding and merging - the number of galaxies declined also. This process was accelerated with larger and larger galaxies.


----------



## Luchesi

A friend sent me this in an email;

Assume the Milky Way contained zero life 6 billion years ago, but there’s a .1% chance of some life appearing in it in any billion-year 
window. 
That would mean there’s less than a 1% chance any life formed before us—in other words 
more than a 99% chance that we’re the first. 
This probability isn’t static of course, it’s just simplifying - the probability 
would be rising with time as more planets formed, and more time passed on older planets

added:
Life here means communicating tech-civs.


----------



## joen_cph

But that's just inserting a factor, in this case a 0.1 % chance in the universe in a billion years, and getting a result from that, without detailing the reasons for that chosen factor. If the factor was set at 5, 50 or 99%, the results would develop accordingly. It says nothing really, except opens up for maybe an interesting facet and technique in establishing probabilities, that of developments through time.


----------



## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> But that's just inserting a factor, in this case a 0.1 % chance in the universe in a billion years, and getting a result from that, without detailing the reasons for that chosen factor. If the factor was set at 5, 50 or 99%, the results would develop accordingly. It says nothing really, except opens up for maybe an interesting facet and technique in establishing probabilities, that of developments through time.


This is from a physicist at Boeing who sent me this. They have a pool going on in his section for the engineers lightheartedly betting on whether aliens will be detected soon (in our lifetimes). But I must add that this guy doesn't believe that global warming will be that bad.. He's much more focused on mechanics and electronics.. 
Yes, you have to pick your own percentage as a starting point.


----------



## ArtMusic

SixFootScowl said:


> Using indirect methods of determining the presence of planets to far away to be seen (their reflected light would be far too dim compared to their parent star), means that we don't have certainty. So at best the number is an estimate.


Billions of planets and stars is a good estimate. We are most, most unlikely not the only one (I know, humans love to think we're special throughout history on all subjects).


----------



## joen_cph

It will be interesting to see, if the Mars rover, designed to look for early life there, succeeds or not. Provided of course, that it lands on the surface as planned, in just an hour from now. And that it works. There's extra excitement here in Denmark, because the essential, analyzing camera device for such a discovery has been designed here. We might-might get some sort of confirmation of Martian life within not very long ... it will be landing in an area, where the 'Jezero Lake' and two adjoining rivers existed billions of years ago.


----------



## Strange Magic

Touchdown!!!!!!!!


----------



## NoCoPilot

If life ever existed on Mars it would be on the order of bacteria, and the odds are about 10 million to one of even that. People who are all excited about "life on Mars" need a serious reality check.

Life elsewhere in the universe, on one of the millions or billions or trillions of exoplanets? The question is of no consequence. 

If it exists, it's too far away to ever know for sure about it, or communicate with them, or visit. It might as well not exist (and we'll probably never know for sure anyway).

As Enrico Fermi said, "If there are aliens out there in the universe, where are they?"


----------



## NoCoPilot

The Mars lander also carries a drone:


> NASA's new rover is carrying a four-pound helicopter called Ingenuity that will attempt something that has never been done before: the first controlled flight on another world in our solar system.
> 
> Flying on Mars is not a trivial endeavor. There is not much air there to push against to generate lift. At the surface of Mars, the atmosphere is just 1/100th as dense as Earth's. The lesser gravity - one-third of what you feel here - helps with getting airborne. But taking off from the surface of Mars is the equivalent of flying through air as thin as what would be found at an altitude of 100,000 feet on Earth. No terrestrial helicopter has ever flown that high, and that's more than twice the altitude that jetliners typically fly at.
> 
> NASA's engineers used a series of materials and computer technology advancements to overcome a number of these challenges. About two months after landing, Perseverance will drop off the helicopter from its belly, and Ingenuity will attempt a series of about five test flights of increasing duration.
> 
> If the tests succeed, it could pave the way for future, larger Marscopters. Having the option of using robotic fliers could greatly expand a space agency's ability to study the Martian landscape in more detail, just as the transition from stationary landers to rovers did in earlier decades.


So let's have another reality check. The atmosphere on Mars is 1/100th the density of Earth. If the thing flies at all -- which I have doubts, but I assume NASA has done the math -- what makes the article writer think "future larger Marscopters" are a possibility?


----------



## NoCoPilot

If the atmosphere is 1/100 as dense, that makes the 4-pound drone equivalent to 400 pounds. If gravity is 1/3, that makes the drone equivalent to 133 pounds. How many drones can lift 133 pounds?


----------



## KenOC

Regarding a slightly earlier discussion, observations made by a spacecraft now at the edge of our solar system suggest that there are "only" several hundred billion galaxies in the universe, fewer than earlier Hubble-based estimates of a couple of trillion. That approximately ten-fold reduction in the estimate may not impact perceived chances of life elsewhere in the universe -- it is, after all, still a pretty big number.

But to find that life, it must flourish during the time period we come across it (or vice versa) and we must be able to recognize it as life. Not a slam dunk!


----------



## ArtMusic

Several hundred billion, that's like each person on earth holding say fifty to one hundred planets in his/her little galaxy, as there are over seven billion humans on earth. How could anyone think we are alone, other than human pride (as usual).


----------



## joen_cph

NoCoPilot said:


> If life ever existed on Mars it would be on the order of bacteria, and the odds are about 10 million to one of even that. People who are all excited about "life on Mars" need a serious reality check.
> 
> Life elsewhere in the universe, on one of the millions or billions or trillions of exoplanets? The question is of no consequence.
> 
> If it exists, it's too far away to ever know for sure about it, or communicate with them, or visit. It might as well not exist (and we'll probably never know for sure anyway).
> 
> As Enrico Fermi said, "If there are aliens out there in the universe, where are they?"


Any polemical objections aside, odds for life elsewhere are pro, rather than against, according to many scientists, probably a majority of them. Chances of 'one to 10 million' are therefore not the current opinion of the majority either.

Besides the life research instruments on board, samples from Mars are likely to be taken back to Earth within 1-2 decades, to be investigated concretely. But the instruments on board can detect microbic fossils, and they remain for billions of years. There's a small chance of current underground microbe life on Mars too.

Finding life elsewhere will have scientific, technical, philosophical and religious implications, among other things. It might reduce the most conservative, anti-scientific or ethnocentric currents in religion, for example. Tons of implications.

And in the very long run, some sort of communication or relation might be established, good or bad. Humanity itself might have changed by then.


----------



## geralmar

First (raw, unprocessed) photos from NASA Perseverance Mars Lander:


----------



## NoCoPilot

“Signs of life” on Mars might not smell very good. Let’s hope Mars sand is the clumping type.


----------



## geralmar

At an astronomy talk I once attended the lecturer mused that if alien life studied the earth through a telescope it might conclude that the planet couldn't possibly harbor life because of the violent weather patterns and effects: rain, hail, snow, hurricanes, tornadoes, lightning, avalanches, blizzards, heatwaves, temperature extremes, winds, jetstreams, glaciers, icebergs, etc.


----------



## Strange Magic

geralmar said:


> At an astronomy talk I once attended the lecturer mused that if alien life studied the earth through a telescope it might conclude that the planet couldn't possibly harbor life because of the violent weather patterns and effects: rain, hail, snow, hurricanes, tornadoes, lightning, avalanches, blizzards, heatwaves, temperature extremes, winds, jetstreams, glaciers, icebergs, etc.


I think the lecturer was in error. Any planet showing large--or even small--areas of open water, accurately identified water, would suspect conditions quite possible for life.


----------



## joen_cph

Strange Magic said:


> I think the lecturer was in error. Any planet showing large--or even small--areas of open water, accurately identified water, would suspect conditions quite possible for life.


Yeah, it might even comprise the existence of other fluids - or some kinds of them - like in the case of Titan, where it's liquid methane and ethane.


----------



## ArtMusic

joen_cph said:


> Yeah, it might even comprise the existence of other fluids - or some kinds of them - like in the case of Titan, where it's liquid methane and ethane.


----------



## joen_cph

ArtMusic said:


>


Informative and well-produced.


----------



## Strange Magic

The science that is enhanced by and derived from the robotic probes to the various moons and planets far exceeds that gained from the monstrously expensive yet scientifically much more barren International Space Station. The ISS is mostly a geopolitical and PR plaything, patched together out of disparate materials, and siphoning up enormous resources (funds) that could be much more productively spent on unmanned probes. Many astronomers and planetary scientists regard the ISS as more a liability than an asset.


----------



## NoCoPilot

joen_cph said:


> Informative and well-produced.


And utter ****. "Titan is the only place in the solar system, other than the planet Earth, that has liquids on its surface." What it fails to mention is this is not liquid WATER, but liquid METHANE. That's because the average surface temperature on Titan is -179.2℃.

For comparison the coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth is -89.2℃, twice as warm. Every lifeform on Earth depends on sunlight, or eating something that depends on sunlight (with the exception of riftia tube worms). The amount of sunlight striking Titan is about 1% that on Earth.

Plus, it's a billion miles away, a 7-year journey at best. "Colonizing" it would be unimaginably risky and difficult.


----------



## NoCoPilot

It also says the Dragonfly drone will be the first helicopter on another planet... in 2035. Just this week, the Perseverance landed on Mars carrying Ingenuity... a drone copter. A little research would've been nice.


----------



## joen_cph

NoCoPilot said:


> And utter ***. "Titan is the only place in the solar system, other than the planet Earth, that has liquids on its surface." What it fails to mention is this is not liquid WATER, but liquid METHANE. That's because the average surface temperature on Titan is -179.2℃.
> 
> For comparison the coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth is -89.2℃, twice as warm. Every lifeform on Earth depends on sunlight, or eating something that depends on sunlight (with the exception of riftia tube worms). The amount of sunlight striking Titan is about 1% that on Earth.
> 
> Plus, it's a billion miles away, a 7-year journey at best. "Colonizing" it would be unimaginably risky and difficult.


You're calling the position of a good deal of scientists '***', but that's up to you then. The point is that conditions allow for liquidness, its not the temperatures themselves, as we know them from Earth. And the gasses and the temperature are actually mentioned in the video too, so it's uncertain why you'd think not (1:30, 2:30).

The scientific category of creatures existing at extreme temperatures (and conditions generally) is extremophiles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophile

The Wikipedia article mentions bacteria on Earth living in environments of temperatures between +120 C and -25 C. It's not specifying much about the example also told about in the video, where bacteria are known to survive for a long time outside the International Space Station, that is, at temperatures somewhere between -157 C and + 121 C,
https://www.sciencealert.com/this-bacterium-survived-on-the-outside-of-the-space-station-for-a-year


----------



## NoCoPilot

joen_cph said:


> You're calling the position of a good deal of scientists '***'


Yes, scientists are only people. They can get caught up in 'irrational exuberance' like anyone else... especially when trying to attract grant money.


----------



## geralmar




----------



## NoCoPilot

Those aliens don't have any noses.


----------



## Itullian

We're alone.....................


----------



## Luchesi

Itullian said:


> We're alone.....................


Yeah, life would form, and maybe it only takes 50 million years. 
Then life would have to acquire energy factories like mitochondria and some type of photosynthesizing, perhaps only a few hundred million years more.

Then life would have to become bigger and more complex through slow competitive evolving - on such a large backdrop as a large water planet. Many reversals. But maybe only another 50 to100 million years.

Then life would have to be able to live and thrive and reproduce on land (another 50 to 100 million?) in order to eventually need to develop a manipulative intelligence, another 200 million years? (if it made evoutionary sense in some situations).

So it seems that, with many lucky mutations and fortunate extinction events, a few billion years (on the low end) after the planet cooled and mixed up the rarer nutrients etc. Ask a planetery science how a site can remain stable and favorable for even a few billion years, if it does not follow the RARE trajectory/molten state path that Earth and Theia took..


----------



## SixFootScowl

Luchesi said:


> Yeah, life would form, and maybe it only takes 50 million years.
> Then life would have to acquire energy factories like mitochondria and some type of photosynthesizing, perhaps only a few hundred million years more.
> 
> Then life would have to become bigger and more complex through slow competitive evolving - on such a large backdrop as a large water planet. Many reversals. But maybe only another 50 to100 million years.
> 
> Then life would have to be able to live and thrive and reproduce on land (another 50 to 100 million?) in order to eventually need to develop a manipulative intelligence, another 200 million years? (if it made evoutionary sense in some situations).
> 
> So it seems that, with many lucky mutations and fortunate extinction events, a few billion years (on the low end) after the planet cooled and mixed up the rarer nutrients etc. Ask a planetery science how a site can remain stable and favorable for even a few billion years, if it does not follow the RARE trajectory/molten state path that Earth and Theia took..


So we can see that evolution is impossible. The reality is given to us in John 1:1-3:



> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


For more information:

John https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 1&version=KJV

Genesis https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+1&version=KJV


----------



## Strange Magic

What a non-sequitur!


----------



## ArtMusic

More exoplanets that potentially have stable climates and to host life.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Just because life on Earth evolved that way, doesn’t mean it had to be the same way anywhere else. It’s probably not even necessary to be carbon based. 

But life, however you define it, is not the default outcome. It appears to be extremely rare.


----------



## hammeredklavier




----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Just because life on Earth evolved that way, doesn't mean it had to be the same way anywhere else. It's probably not even necessary to be carbon based.
> 
> But life, however you define it, is not the default outcome. It appears to be extremely rare.


We have to give this young universe a few more billion years. We're early. In 5 more billion years these neighbor galaxies (M83 M33 M31) will be wild and wolly!


----------



## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> We have to give this young universe a few more billion years. We're early. In 5 more billion years these neighbor galaxies (M83 M33 M31) will be wild and wolly!


I'll set my alarm clock.


----------



## ArtMusic

NoCoPilot said:


> Just because life on Earth evolved that way, doesn't mean it had to be the same way anywhere else. It's probably not even necessary to be carbon based.
> 
> But life, however you define it, is not the default outcome. It appears to be extremely rare.


I agree it is rare. Out of the hundreds of billions of planets, we are not the only one, but we are one of a "limited few" planets.


----------



## NoCoPilot

ArtMusic said:


> I agree it is rare. Out of the hundreds of billions of planets, we *may* not *be* the only one, but we are one of a "limited few" planets.


Fixed that for ya!

BTW I highly recommend this book on that subject:
https://www.amazon.com/Rare-Earth-Complex-Uncommon-Universe/dp/0387952896


----------



## ArtMusic

It also depends on what is meant by life, which the academics are still debating about, whether the simplest proteins is life? In Antarctica there are ancient bacteria living deep in the permafrost that owe nothing to the sun for example. Surely there must be organisms as such elsewhere in other exoplanets.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Organic proteins and amino acids have been found on asteroids. They're not alive.

You're right, the definition is somewhat fuzzy, especially considering all life on Earth comes from the same proto-organism (some kind blue-green slime mold, they think). Evidence of that abounds in Washington DC.

Are artificiallly intelligent animaloids created in a computer alive? They grow and reproduce and strive to stay alive.


----------



## geralmar




----------



## Luchesi

geralmar said:


>


Mars isn't smiling?


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Organic proteins and amino acids have been found on asteroids. They're not alive.
> 
> You're right, the definition is somewhat fuzzy, especially considering all life on Earth comes from the same proto-organism (some kind blue-green slime mold, they think). Evidence of that abounds in Washington DC.
> 
> Are artificiallly intelligent animaloids created in a computer alive? They grow and reproduce and strive to stay alive.


No, they're just brightenings and dimmings on a screen.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> No, they're just brightenings and dimmings on a screen.


Read Stanislaw Lem's "Non Serviam" and see if you still feel that way.
http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-19-non-serviam.html


----------



## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Read Stanislaw Lem's "Non Serviam" and see if you still feel that way.
> http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-19-non-serviam.html


You'll have to summerize for me what's relevant from that.


----------



## KenOC

An interesting sighting reported by a commercial jetliner in New Mexico:


----------



## ArtMusic

KenOC said:


> An interesting sighting reported by a commercial jetliner in New Mexico:


A good one.

A famous airliner encounter was that of Japan Air Lines flight 1628.


----------



## Ariasexta

David Wilcock interview by the Edge of Wonder mentioned the current music industry(pop) is the worst *since the beginning of history.* Anybody agree? I do. :lol:


----------



## ArtMusic

Ariasexta said:


> David Wilcock interview by the Edge of Wonder mentioned the current music industry(pop) is the worst *since the beginning of history.* Anybody agree? I do. :lol:


I think so. But what does this have to do with UFO's? :lol:


----------



## Ariasexta

ArtMusic said:


> I think so. But what does this have to do with UFO's? :lol:


David Wilcock is one of the major figures of the UFO disclosure movement, he basically means the pop industry is controlled by evil secret societies that work with the evil aliens. It is true that since a decade ago, pop music has been a real pandemonium.


----------



## joen_cph

Ariasexta said:


> David Wilcock is one of the major figures of the UFO disclosure movement, he basically means the pop industry is controlled by evil secret societies that work with the evil aliens (...)


I did not know that. Amazing if such stuff is taken seriously by some.


----------



## Ariasexta

joen_cph said:


> I did not know that. Amazing if such stuff is taken seriously by some.


I have eerie feelings about some "artists", can`t explain. Also free energy, UFO stuff give me the same uncomfortable feelings with those about the "artists", such feelings usually prove to be some providential warnings.


----------



## joen_cph

Those popular genres have received more or less similar critique at least since the 1920s, just to compare with more recent times. Josephine Baker was named a 'devil' by some, Elvis an obvious, frenzied and immoral danger to society.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> You'll have to summarize for me what's relevant from that.


The short story is a review of a non-existent book by "Professor Dobb," describing his work in "personetics," a non-existent field of study where AI beings are created in the computer.

In Dobb's book these AIs (called "personoids") are very sophisticated, leading lives as complex and sophisticated as real human beings.

The reviewer concludes that beings of such complexity, who achieve self-awareness, require that the simulation never be turned off, ever. Much philosophy and musing over the scientist's responsibility to beings he has created... in a sort of Biblical parable. It's very thought-provoking.

Sorry, this online scan is a _TERRIBLE_ uncorrected scan, full of wrong words, page jumps, orphaned sentences. I didn't realize it was so hard to read.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Ariasexta said:


> David Wilcock interview by the Edge of Wonder mentioned the current music industry(pop) is the worst *since the beginning of history.* Anybody agree? I do.


I wasn't here for the beginning of history. I think it would be unfair to speculate.


----------



## Ariasexta

No, I mean only since about 2010 or so, the pop music as far as I know started to become really weird and stupid. Even in Japan, a lot of under-age girls and boys starting to dance like adults, and over-all, the musical mainstream really went down-ward. The american pop was the same, but I do not feel attached to chinese pop at all since 20 years ago. It is not under the spell of increasing classical zeal, I still listen to some modern pop but mostly written around 1990-2005, almost none of the recent pop sound right to me, either japanese or western pop, which I used to listen to. I have been feeling really strange about the recent pop world.



> I wasn't here for the beginning of history. I think it would be unfair to speculate.


I just hope it will not get worst, David Wilcock was right.


----------



## joen_cph

Ariasexta said:


> No, I mean only since about 2010 or so, the pop music as far as I know started to become really weird and stupid. Even in Japan, a lot of under-age girls and boys starting to dance like adults, and over-all, the musical mainstream really went down-ward. The american pop was the same, but I do not feel attached to chinese pop at all since 20 years ago. It is not under the spell of increasing classical zeal, I still listen to some modern pop but mostly written around 1990-2005, almost none of the recent pop sound right to me, either japanese or western pop, which I used to listen to. I have been feeling really strange about the recent pop world.


It's hard to know exactly what trends you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to find parallels earlier.

Asian pop can be rather bizarre when seen from the outside & I can't claim to know much about it, except from some general impression, since I'm not in any way attracted to it, or to pop music in general. But futuristic-, childish- or robotic-inspired music for example has been around for many decades. 
The rather awful Danish group Aqua is one example from the 90s, very popular in Asia


----------



## Ariasexta

joen_cph said:


> It's hard to know exactly what trends you are talking about, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to find parallels earlier.
> 
> Asian pop can be rather bizarre when seen from the outside & I can't claim to know much about it, except from some general impression, since I'm not in any way attracted to it, or to pop music in general. But futuristic-, childish- or robotic-inspired music for example has been around for many decades.
> The rather awful Danish group Aqua is one example from the 90s, very popular in Asia


Who blame you if you listen to Aqua in your 14 years od age? Aqua, Backstreet Boys, Aaron Carter, Elton John, Michael Jackson, U2 are among my teenager remmebrances; from Japan I had Malice Mizer, L`Arc en Ciel, Gackt, Hyde, Ayumi Hamasaki and no more. If anything I try some retrospections to jazz from 70-90s. I hate futurism in music, maybe it explains the recent deterioration.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Ariasexta said:


> David Wilcock is one of the major figures of the UFO disclosure movement, he basically means the pop industry is controlled by evil secret societies that work with the evil aliens. It is true that since a decade ago, pop music has been a real pandemonium.


You are onto something. There is definitely an evil influence ruling over the pop music and entertainment industry.


----------



## Ariasexta

SixFootScowl said:


> You are onto something. There is definitely an evil influence ruling over the pop music and entertainment industry.


Concording to what Martin Luther said back in the old days: The devil does not stay where music is.


----------



## SixFootScowl

Ariasexta said:


> Concording to what Martin Luther said back in the old days: The devil does not stay where music is.


True and he is especially prevalent in the political realm.


----------



## Varick

...................









v


----------



## NoCoPilot

Aliens levitate a tanker ship:


----------



## ArtMusic

Earth is not alone.


----------



## NoCoPilot

ArtMusic said:


> Earth is not alone.


Unless you define "alone" as being "so far away from any exoplanet that we'll never be able to visit, never be able to send radio transmissions, never even be able to gather any detailed information about them."


----------



## ArtMusic

NoCoPilot said:


> Unless you define "alone" as being "so far away from any exoplanet that we'll never be able to visit, never be able to send radio transmissions, never even be able to gather any detailed information about them."


That's the whole point of exploration, why do you think scientists and NASA are allocating huge sums of money, time and resources to do this? They won't be sending a whole new generation of telescopes out to the heavens if there is zero chance of finding anything. Thank goodness we have such open minded scientists!


----------



## Strange Magic

What we need to start working on are the Guild Heighliners of _Dune_, and their specialized crew of the Spacing Guild:

"The Heighliner was a starship used by the Spacing Guild to transport people and equipment across the known universe.

Guild Heighliners were usually immense in size, easily accommodating many thousands of passengers and the vast export of planetary goods.

Spacing Guild Heighliners could be used to fold space to travel vast distances across the universe in an instant. They were piloted by Guild Navigators and Steersmen."

It's that ability to fold space that was key to intra-galactic travel, and that always intrigued me. No need for hyperdrive and extra-dimensional travel. All you need is the Spice--a lot of it, and who knows how long to acquire the proper mutation? NASA, your goal is clear.


----------



## NoCoPilot

They have Spice, but only billionaires can get it.


----------



## Luchesi

Back in December 2020 there was another wow signal, this time coming from the Proxima Centauri system (or maybe far behind it). 
If an advanced tech-civ is using that system to send us a message (instead of from one of our planets here, so that it wouldn't be too frightening for us), then this is the biggest news in history. 
It's just a signal, it's not modulated so there's no information in it, but maybe due to its programming, we have to respond to it before it begins its dialogue with us.


----------



## NoCoPilot

In June some classified UFO reports will be declassified. One includes a report of a UFO that broke the sound barrier without creating a sonic boom.

My unscientific postulate is that that GUARANTEES it was an optical illusion of some sort rather than a physical object.


----------



## Jacck

NoCoPilot said:


> In June some classified UFO reports will be declassified. One includes a report of a UFO that broke the sound barrier without creating a sonic boom.
> 
> My unscientific postulate is that that GUARANTEES it was an optical illusion of some sort rather than a physical object.


the advanced alien technology allows the UFOs to locally manipulate the force of intertia and thus also gravity (since accoring to Einstein, inertia and gravity are equivalent)


----------



## NoCoPilot

NoCoPilot said:


> Aliens levitate a tanker ship:


Where are the aliens when you need one?


----------



## NoCoPilot

Jacck said:


> the advanced alien technology allows the UFOs to locally manipulate the force of intertia and thus also gravity (since accoring to Einstein, inertia and gravity are equivalent)


Yeah, that must be it. Physics is just a_ recommendation,_ not a law.


----------



## Jacck

NoCoPilot said:


> Yeah, that must be it. Physics is just a_ recommendation,_ not a law.


1) When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2) The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Thanks Isaac. The laws of physics are immutable though.


----------



## ArtMusic

Jacck said:


> 1) When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
> 
> 2) The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
> 
> 3) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


No matter how improbable mathematically the chances of finding life elsewhere, the endeavor is already there in space from humanity. New generation of telescopes on the ground and to be launched into space are endeavors that prove the cause is worth it. No institution and our best minds are willing to bet there is zero chance on the infinitely varied planets, moons, solar systems and galaxies. Even down here on earth, scientists are digging up ancient life forms that are frozen in the deep ice (permafrost).


----------



## ArtMusic

A new powerful telescope to find the answer, is there another earth or a planet better than earth?


----------



## Luchesi

ArtMusic said:


> A new powerful telescope to find the answer, is there another earth or a planet better than earth?


Such a planet would probably need a Jupiter in place like ours to protect it from getting blasted too much. Life takes a billion years of comparatively stable conditions just to get started. Its star would probably need to be as quiet as ours, but no G stars of the 300 they've studied are nice and tame.

The planet would probably need an abnormally large (long-lived) core (small rocky planets have small cores (due to accretion processes)) to protect life and to insure long-lived plate tectonics for a healthy carbon cycle.


----------



## kfriegedank

There were Aliens... they planted the Human race here - then they buzzed off, switched on their interplanetary television, and watched and laughed as we screwed up the planet, committing torture (the only species on this planet that does so by the way) against ourselves, and being divided and controlled by a slim majority of made up religious stupidity and business men.

A great show if I say so myself - now pass the tea.


----------



## Art Rock

*Reminder: no politics outside the designated areas (for politics directly related to music: Politics and Religion in Classical Music; for non-music related politics, the Groups). Some posts have been deleted.*


----------



## Ariasexta

Sitchin said the sumerian myth tells that humanity was created as a slave race for extraction of gold, to interprete the myth literally could be disinformative if we were to take the story behind seriously, what if the gold in myth taken as a allegory to some kind of energy? So humanity was basically a proxy race to extract something from a certain source, like proxies implanted in another country for extracting capitals to channel into international funds. 

Humanity was not just born with original sin, but created with the original sin. The philosophical bearing of the UFO phenomena is more important and interesting than the scientifical and technical bearings of them.


----------



## Jacck

^^^ oh yes, Zecharia Sitchin, Annunaki and Nibiru. Where is Nibiru anyway? I thought it was supposed to arrive at the end of the Mayan calendar


----------



## joen_cph

Why not invent one's own Alien mythology? Would probably be a lot of fun ...¨

Ever heard of the Bviuiuni ?


----------



## Ariasexta

One more challenge: find a great primate with pale skin except human beings, almost all primates close to human size are black skinned. Not just that, none of the animals on land that are similar or larger in size to human beings have pale skin. It is unnatural that human beings have pale skin on this planet. 

The extraction of gold is frequently related to ancient religions, in mesoamerican and hindu, tibetan cults, gold foil was used to creat the sacred masks for the noble dead. Also, in inca myth, gold was consecrated to their sacred lake Titicaca.


----------



## Jacck

Ariasexta said:


> One more challenge: find a great primate with pale skin except human beings, almost all primates close to human size are black skinned. Not just that, none of the animals on land that are similar or larger in size to human beings have pale skin. It is unnatural that human beings have pale skin on this planet.
> 
> The extraction of gold is frequently related to ancient religions, in mesoamerican and hindu, tibetan cults, gold foil was used to creat the sacred masks for the noble dead. Also, in inca myth, gold was consecrated to their sacred lake Titicaca.


the skin color has clear correlation with latitude. People in tropical regions have black skin, because it protects them from sun radiation. People near poles in cold regions have white skin, because it allows them to catch more vitamin D during winter. As far as I know, there are no primates living in the north, all of them live in the tropics. Humans are the only primates who made it to the north, managed to adapt to the harsh winters (by making fire) etc.


----------



## NoCoPilot

I love the picture above. A new "better Earth" is within sight, probably inside the orbit of the moon, if we just orbited a few telescopes. Then when the planet gets too hot and storms too intense and the water too polluted, we'll just load the family in the '56 Plymouth and motor off to our unspoilt summer home.

Oh, were it that easy.


----------



## NoCoPilot

Ariasexta said:


> One more challenge: find a great primate with pale skin except human beings


Are there no dark-skinned people where you live?


----------



## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> the skin color has clear correlation with latitude. People in tropical regions have black skin, because it protects them from sun radiation. People near poles in cold regions have white skin, because it allows them to catch more vitamin D during winter. As far as I know, there are no primates living in the north, all of them live in the tropics. Humans are the only primates who made it to the north, managed to adapt to the harsh winters (by making fire) etc.


Interesting fact, large non human primates do not live in where people with pale skin live, however, they do thrive in the south with people with black skin. One exception in all animals is the domesticated pigs, but their skin is thick yet their meat is delicious. However, the wild pigs have darker skin and fur. BTW, some mongolian lores tell that human beings were transformed from the wild bears under the spell of sky gods.

There is a genetic study that finds human being a cross between large primates and other animals.

- Gene McCarthy, PhD (@Macroevo) August 8, 2020

The Hybrid Hypothesis
1: Human origins: Are we hybrids?



> Human infertility. Another observation that appears significant in connection with the theory of human origins here under consideration is that it has been well known for decades that human sperm is abnormal in comparison with that of the typical mammal. Human spermatozoa are not of one uniform type as in the vast majority of all other types of animals. Moreover, human sperm is not merely abnormal in appearance - a high percentage of human spermatozoa are actually dysfunctional. These and other facts demonstrate that human fertility is low in comparison with that of other mammals (for detailed documentation of this fact see the article Evidence of Human Infertility). Infertility and sperm abnormalities are characteristic of hybrids. So this finding suggests that it's reasonable to suppose, at least for the sake of argument, that human origins can be traced to a hybrid cross. It is also consistent with the idea that the hybridization in question was between two rather distinct and genetically incompatible types of animals, that is, it was a distant cross.


Human origin might have a hybridization process which is obviously unnatural. The pale/yellow skin does not belong to the large primates but to some other animals which could be anything like pigs.


----------



## Ariasexta

NoCoPilot said:


> Are there no dark-skinned people where you live?


People turned black by sunburning. Yes, there are a lot sunburnt people that are darker than me.


----------



## Strange Magic

More about the ideas of Gene McCarthy, PhD:

"Science currently supposes the chimpanzee to be our closest living relative. McCarthy believes humans evolved from an original pig-chimp mating, likely a female chimpanzee and a male pig, followed by several generations of "backcrossing." In other words, the offspring and descendants of that pairing, like Tarzan, lived among chimpanzees, but unlike Tarzan, McCarthy says, they mated repeatedly generation after generation with chimps, becoming more and more like chimps and less and less like pigs."

https://saportareport.com/mccarthy_...tion/archived-columnists/michelle-hiskey/ben/

Warning: Never put lipstick on a pig, either before or after you mud-wrestle with it. :tiphat:


----------



## NoCoPilot

Ariasexta said:


> There is a genetic study that finds human being a cross between large primates and other animals. Human origin might have a hybridization process which is obviously unnatural. The pale/yellow skin does not belong to the large primates but to some other animals which could be anything like pigs.


The cannibal name for human meat is 'long pig." Supposedly we taste a lot like pork.

There are two kinds of cannibals, endocannibals and exocannibals. It's best to know which kind you're bunking with before you move in. There's a third kind, called an autocannibal, but if you ask them to define what that means they'll just throw up their hands.


----------



## ArtMusic

Ariasexta said:


> Interesting fact, large non human primates do not live in where people with pale skin live, however, they do thrive in the south with people with black skin. One exception in all animals is the domesticated pigs, but their skin is thick yet their meat is delicious. However, the wild pigs have darker skin and fur. BTW, some mongolian lores tell that human beings were transformed from the wild bears under the spell of sky gods.
> 
> There is a genetic study that finds human being a cross between large primates and other animals.
> 
> - Gene McCarthy, PhD (@Macroevo) August 8, 2020
> 
> The Hybrid Hypothesis
> 1: Human origins: Are we hybrids?
> 
> Human origin might have a hybridization process which is obviously unnatural. The pale/yellow skin does not belong to the large primates but to some other animals which could be anything like pigs.


Interesting theory, maybe aliens did the hybrid program without concern for the low fertility because of the intelligent gene would make humans dominate the planet anyway as is obviously the case.


----------



## Luchesi

The Mayans noticed the darkest part of the elongated rift extending through the center of the brightest section of the Milky Way as they looked up in the Sagittarius direction. We know now that it's a series of overlapping dust clouds that are positioned between us and the Sagittarius spiral arm whose outer edge is visible (if you know where to look) about 10,000 LYs away in that direction. We’re located at the inner edge of the Orion Spur of stars and dust, so that when we look in that direction (inward toward the galactic center) there's less obstructions (between us and that spiral arm). But also there's these dirty gas clouds only a few thousand LYs in between there too. These clouds cause it to appear as if the Milky Way is divided into two roughly equal sections above and below them.

I assume the Mayans were afraid that such a dark rift would capture or attack or weaken the sun (or re-vitalize it, we don’t know) when it got too close. If you had good long records of the sun's apparent position in the sky back then you could calculate where it would be in the future. Other ancient people worried every year that the sun would continue south in December and not return.

The sun was still crossing the middle of the Dark Rift a few years ago on the December solstice. It reached the Rift in the late 1990s. Around 800 CE the Mayans calculated that the sun would reach the dangerous area about the year 2000. 
It's also very close in our sky to the SMBH in our galactic center, but the sun is never quite at the south declination, -23.5 vs -29. That black hole is likely to ingest another star, look out!, because it did so only an estimated million years ago.


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## Ariasexta

NoCoPilot said:


> The cannibal name for human meat is 'long pig." Supposedly we taste a lot like pork.
> 
> There are two kinds of cannibals, endocannibals and exocannibals. It's best to know which kind you're bunking with before you move in. There's a third kind, called an autocannibal, but if you ask them to define what that means they'll just throw up their hands.


The third kind is metaphoric to modern eastern ideology, while the exo to kaпitaлism and vthe endo to the atheist religion(satanism), for eating up people through invisible and corrosive ways. Guess why some people avoid pork, maybe they do know the taste of human flesh from their ancestral teachings.


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## Ariasexta

ArtMusic said:


> Interesting theory, maybe aliens did the hybrid program without concern for the low fertility because of the intelligent gene would make humans dominate the planet anyway as is obviously the case.


We are in certain senses, programmed to ruin the hospitability of this planet.


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## ArtMusic

Ariasexta said:


> We are in certain senses, programmed to ruin the hospitability of this planet.


I agree we are/will likely ruin the hospitality of this planet on purely selfish reasons unless some alternative source(s) of energy that is non-conducive to any trade-off with resources on Earth. Maybe that is the ultimate goal of evolution? That some species (i.e. us) can develop/discover that source of energy, by which time we would have developed advanced technology to colonize elsewhere while Earth is already burned up/inhospitable. It is merely spending up the inevitable destruction of Earth when the Sun turns into a red giant star.


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## Ariasexta

ArtMusic said:


> I agree we are/will likely ruin the hospitality of this planet on purely selfish reasons unless some alternative source(s) of energy that is non-conducive to any trade-off with resources on Earth. Maybe that is the ultimate goal of evolution? That some species (i.e. us) can develop/discover that source of energy, by which time we would have developed advanced technology to colonize elsewhere while Earth is already burned up/inhospitable. It is merely spending up the inevitable destruction of Earth when the Sun turns into a red giant star.


We are born into this world to experience our more or less than 80 years of life without our conscious consent so we have no concern about the astronomical history of our solar system. We should effectively take the Sun and Planet Earth to be aeternal existences whereas we are disruptive factors to the given environment. Why we should concern ourself about the billion years of changes while our pitiful and short life is full of stupidity?

Our scientific development has largely distracted the attention from our most foundamental conditions of being, from our condition of birth to our conditions of life and death, the conditions of our being define who we are and what we should concern ourself with, not following the endlessly inflating rationed "truth". Like what Lenin termed it: freedom must be rationed. Our science is the rationed version of our conditions of being. Rationedness is irrationalism disguised as science and it means to distract and deceive. We can not ever retrieve what is lost already, but we can choose face our consequences and justify our unconsented birth into this world of evil humanity: Redemption of our unwanted existence.


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## Ariasexta

To focus on whatever we have witnessed in our limited lifetime is our true goal of existence, science is no proof of anything that exists beyond your own lifetime and immediate concerns. The Only thing that truly transcends each individual conditions is the common ideals: all our values of republic, democracy, common good, social development were not based on science but the traditional ideals which exist before our known history, related to the gods, just like the humanity we are born into. Unconsented birth means a lot people, this is not just a probability manifest, we are born imprisoned.

Scientifical dictatorship wants to take away the power of true independent thinking from people, so that people would be at a lost in *introspective and reflective critical thinking*, all we could do is to criticize each other and destroy each other. Our true life starts from every one millionth of a second of you thinking on the given ideals and move on to individualize all ancient ethical and philological laws. This is the true science, use the critical thinking on yourself first.

I need to redefine the word: philology as the learning of learning, not just as a term of the linguistic learning. So philology here refers to the study of the history, development, structure, nature of human knowledge and ways of thinking. I feel philosophy too emotional, lacking the hint to logical processes.


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## Strange Magic

I will boil down 95% of the "material" discussed above. Once _Homo sapiens_ realized that out-of-control human population growth threatened to destroy (eventually) the ability of the natural environment to maintain itself with people in it, we would limit such growth of population. By doing that, and also applying simple principles of hygiene to the quantity and types of materials we processed--the second of the two nightmares facing the planet, and worse when multiplied one by the other--we might have had a long ride on our spaceship planet, along with all our fellow creatures.

Not sure how atheism and satanism coexist; not sure I want to know; the "answer" may cause severe flatulence.


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## Ariasexta

Strange Magic: You made realistic points, according to modern ethics, depopulation is the only answer to the increasing pressure of survival on this planet, but I have a different vision to the issue. Recalling the famous Rat Utopia experiment, where the population growth from a pair of rat couple seemed to be inexplicably controlled by an unknown limiting factor even given limitless life resources for free. However, humanity was not likely originated from only one pair of selected parents, still there could be many more unknown factors other than our own deliberate mechanism to control our own population on this planet.

As for the aitheism, the greeks were the earliest recorded practioners of logics and rationalism, starting from investigating the cause(aitia) of everything and the consequences(telos) of everything.


> When a being is in actuality, it has fulfilled its end, its telos. All beings by nature are telic beings. The end or telos of an acorn is to become an oak tree. The acorn's potentiality is an inner striving towards its fulfillment as an oak tree. If it reaches this fulfillment it is in actuality, or entelecheia, which is a word that Aristotle coined, and is etymologically related to telos. It is the activity of being-its-own-end that is actuality. This is also the ergon, or function or work, of the oak tree. The best sort of oak tree-the healthiest, for example-best fulfills its work or function. It does this in its activity, its energeia, of being. This activity or energeia is the en-working or being-at-work of the being.
> 
> One more important set of technical terms is Aristotle's four causes: material, formal, efficient (moving), and final cause. To know a thing thoroughly is to know its cause (aitia), or what is responsible for making a being who or what it is.


Some greek philosophers put gods as the cause of all motions, some put the souls within everything as the cause of their motion, while their ends are up for continued investigation. Lets take the investigation of the cause and the end as the start of reason. Reason by greeks was not an anathema to theism, so forth, untill our times, we have hybrid genes from many species of animals that pose a challenging question for atheists to answer.

As for those who praise the "prosperous" Чаina, they praise the massive infrastractures and the easily friendly strangers, like fluttering dragonflies over a pond skimming the surface come and leave, without knowing in depth peoples thinkings there: their chaotic mind. I know, they worship demons, all kinds weird spirits, they fear a lot of imminent things in constant mental unstability and hopeless ignorace, so where are those highly conscientious and concerned atheist apologists? People live in constant fear without a faith, western people are so daring just because they have a huge and powerful church behind them.


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## NoCoPilot

Ariasexta said:


> we have hybrid genes from many species of animals that pose a challenging question for atheists to answer.


Quite the opposite. The number of shared genes between any two species, from planaria to man, is a "challenging question" for theists who propose a simultaneous creation of all creatures separate from each other.



Ariasexta said:


> People live in constant fear without a faith


Balderdash. It's incredibly freeing not to have to worry about angering an unseen overlord.



Ariasexta said:


> western people are so daring just because they have a huge and powerful church behind them.


"Western people" have some of the most destructive attitudes because they are taught to "have dominion over" the animals and fields. They have historically ravaged and destroyed other cultures because they thought they were inferior heathens. They have fought each other for millennia over the "correct" interpretation of scripture.

It's not a recommendation for the Church.


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## Art Rock

*Reminder: no discussion on religion outside the designated areas (for religion directly related to music: Politics and Religion in Classical Music; for non-music related religion, the Groups). *


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## NoCoPilot

Yeah but... I *like* when discussions digress into unexpected corrollaries.


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## Ariasexta

Plotinus was the one what I said above who individualizes the heritage of ideals. I am excited, to showcase my own individualization:



> Plotinus (204-270 C.E.), in his Enneads-a collection of six books broken into sections of nine-builds upon Plato's metaphysical thought, and primarily upon his concept of the Good. Plotinus is also informed by Aristotle's work, the Unmoved Mover (thought thinking thought) in particular, and is privy to the bulk of the ancient philosophical tradition. As Kevin Corrigan says, "Plotinus transforms everything he inherits by the very activity of thinking through that inheritance critically and creatively" (23).* In other words, Plotinus inherits concepts of unity, the forms, divine intellect, and soul, but makes these concepts his own. The result is a philosophy that comes close to a religious spiritual practice*.


I did not read the above passage before this moment, just here to show how to make one a powerful independent thinker if one can practice individualization of the ideological heritage. Honestly, this is just a tiny scrumb from my sketch, and a trial of my own vision and a tribute to Plotinus.

I think every human being is born with evil delusions built into his/her soul, it will grow under acquired evil influences from evil people. The ancient greeks did not elaborate on this point, but they did postulate the concept of coming to the true self, which is also my final goal of my philological sketch. But I think, as we individualize the critical tools, we fit them into our respective conditions, it would seem dishonest to expose the whole individualization in the specified context, so it should be kept secret in the central part.

But the formulae will be given:

1- The definition of the true self in comparison: The true self by Plotinus: the sacred oneness, the impersonal intellect; the true self by Ariasexta: the final residue awareness after the redemption of the original sin and disillusionment of the ones own ego. The later part is similar to the departure of the self-identifying passion.



> To become a determinate individual is to separate oneself from the All by adding a difference which, as Plotinus says, is a negation. By cutting off all individual differences, and therefore our own individuality, we can become the All once again" (166). The best life depends upon becoming one's true self via the intellect, *which means to step away from the part of the soul by which we typically identify ourselves, the passionate and desiring part of the soul*.


However, my postulation of the false ego is not the passionate part, but the impersonal part, which might refer to national identity, even the identity of being a human. 

Disillusionment is the purpose of all miseries, that is, our pain in life is a part of fighting the evil delusions built inside our soul. This is a difficult process, not just making a sketch of mottos, you will have to undergo all kinds of humiliation to reach the disillusionment and this is not yet the start of the redemption. How to start redemption is the true secret of my sketch, I call it the true magic. :lol: You are to search for yourself, I will keep it a secret permanently, it is where my full personal conditions lies.

2-The earthly self, the contaminated true self, or the true self in crisis: to be defined by 3 conditions of being: birth, living, death.

Your nationality, cultural background, familial ties, religious background, related heritages belong to the birth condition; your professions, studies, acquired knowledge and experiences, personal affairs, passions to the living condition; your religious convictions, accumulated justices, crimes, sins, lies, personal fears, mental personae to the condition of death. So, the earthly self can be discretely and ethically studied and evaluated by human reason, this is where we should apply our power of accumulated treasury of scientifical and philosophical instruments.

3-The true self is not the purely intellectual or spiritual being, but a fearless persona in flesh, a living charisma, combining with living passions and the wisdom of life to act on the highest level of self-determination, self-awareness, in mastership of both hedonism and self-control of life.

This is my difference from Platonism, passion is one of the elements that build the true self. Bon Soir, ma chere musique. :tiphat:

4-The immaterial higher self is not a concern in my sketch. Not to calculate the afterlife is a part of my ethics.


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## Art Rock

NoCoPilot said:


> Yeah but... I *like* when discussions digress into unexpected corrollaries.


That's fine, and unless it becomes a trainwreck no problem.

However, the terms of reference for the site are quite clear: no politics and no religion outside the designated areas. The mods will edit or delete posts if necessary.


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## Jacck

Ariasexta said:


> Plotinus was the one what I said above who individualizes the heritage of ideals. I am excited, to showcase my own individualization:
> I did not read the above passage before this moment, just here to show how to make one a powerful independent thinker if one can practice individualization of the ideological heritage. Honestly, this is just a tiny scrumb from my sketch, and a trial of my own sketch and a tribute to Plotinus.
> I think every human being is born with evil delusions built into his/her soul, it will grow under acquired evil influences from evil people. The ancient greeks did not elaborate on this point, but they did postulate the concept of coming to the true self, which is also my final goal of my philological sketch. But I think, as we individualize the critical tools, we fit them into our respective conditions, it would seem dishonest to expose the whole individualization in the specified context, so it should be kept secret in the central part.


I know Plotinus only vaguely, and mainly because he was an influence on Meister Eckhart. I know that he was mystic for sure. And studying various mystic traditions all over the world has been somewhat of a hobby of mine. I have no doubt that his thought was pretty deep, so deep that only fellow mystics can truly comprehend it. Concerning the nature of evil. No need to philosophise, we now know that some 3% of people have one of the dark triad personality disorders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
these people lack empathy, and truly selfish, are often sadistic and enjoy to bring others down. And I know from personal experience (I had an encounter with such a person) that the majority of people cannot see through them and fall for their fake charm.


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## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> I know Plotinus only vaguely, and mainly because he was an influence on Meister Eckhart. I know that he was mystic for sure. And studying various mystic traditions all over the world has been somewhat of a hobby of mine. I have no doubt that his thought was pretty deep, so deep that only fellow mystics can truly comprehend it. Concerning the nature of evil. No need to philosophise, we now know that some 3% of people have one of the dark triad personality disorders
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
> these people lack empathy, and truly selfish, are often sadistic and enjoy to bring others down. And I know from personal experience (I had an encounter with such a person) that the majority of people cannot see through them and fall for their fake charm.


Nz could be an organized individualization of the western gnostics and occults, I do draw some useful inspirations from them and made a new set of rules for myself. However, I am against exclusive mysticism, one thing is sure, exclusive conclave is not my stuff, tired of it already, why am I not born a white germanic, so that I would make it. A chinese to walk this path can not be more baffoonic.

BTW, ecstacy is a reward of critical thinking, however, sometimes such practice is painful in many terms, it just fit for someone who is grudgy to his own situation. I would not blame people for following their passions, passions by themself are not the source of evil, I want a freer environment for human passions instead.


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## Jacck

Ariasexta said:


> Nz could be an organized individualization of the western gnostics and occults, I do draw some useful inspirations from them and made a new set of rules for myself. However, I am against exclusive mysticism, one thing is sure, exclusive conclave is not my stuff, tired of it already, why am I not born a white germanic, so that I would make it. A chinese to walk this path can not be more baffoonic.


you have very fine Chinese mystics too. I especially like Huang Po (黄檗希运) and Hui Hai (百丈懷海) and especially Master Zhuang (莊子). I love his wisdom, his sarcasm and his humor.


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## Strange Magic

*Logorrhea: Definition*

"Pathologically excessive and often incoherent talkativeness or wordiness that is characteristic especially of the manic phase of bipolar disorder. Other Words from logorrhea. logorrheic or chiefly British logorrhoeic \ - ˈrē- ik \ adjective."

UFOs brought this scourge to Earth.


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## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> you have very fine Chinese mystics too. I especially like Huang Po (黄檗希运) and Hui Hai (百丈懷海) and especially Master Zhuang (莊子). I love his wisdom, his sarcasm and his humor.


Many mystic buddhist teachings were lost during the raid of Dunhuang caverns during 19th century and early 20 century, especially the religious documents brought home by the buddhist monk Tangxuanzang(602-664) from India, which amounted to some 2000 volumes, only less than 70 of them survived into our time and public. Nobody knows the whereabout of the rest of these immense treasures, probably hidden or destroyed by evil autocrats. Zhuangzi was a visionary, he has good points but no the point of action, this is the major issue of most of chinese thinkers. Western ethicists are the executors of ideas, experimenters of theories. Many chinese people still hold to the value of "无为而治/doing nothing is doing good" proposed by Laozi, which was very much a nihilist and still dominates over the rest of schools of thinkers.

Particularly, almost all chinese autocrats hate buddhism, burned and destroyed buddhist books since the Qin dynasty, and peaked during the mongols and manchus. Manchus are known to have destroyed over millions of books during the middle of the 17th century, targetting buddhist and encyclopedic compilations from earlier dynasties.


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## NoCoPilot

Book burnings are a human trademark. As are movies and records.


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## Ariasexta

> "Western people" have some of the most destructive attitudes because they are taught to "have dominion over" the animals and fields. They have historically ravaged and destroyed other cultures because they thought they were inferior heathens. They have fought each other for millennia over the "correct" interpretation of scripture.
> 
> It's not a recommendation for the Church.


Mayan and incas were at their demise when europeans came, none of the monuments there were being built at the time, incas did not even have written languages. Europeans destroyed Japan? Russia? Vietnam? Africa? India? China? they destroyed themselves. The most destructive force from the west are the latest apologists of...


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## Ariasexta

NoCoPilot said:


> Book burnings are a human trademark. As are movies and records.


The praised, beloved autocrats had been doing this since Qin dynasty in 220BC, whoa, I love china, I love Russia, they are so friendly so peaceful.


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## SixFootScowl

NoCoPilot said:


> Book burnings are a human trademark. As are movies and records.


The big difference is whether they burn their own records (as in the image) vs confiscating other peoples' records, books, etc, and burning them. In the first case, they have a right to destroy their own property.


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## Ariasexta

Qinshihuang is considered as teh first unifier of China, it is truly amazing that he did succeeded in annihilating all his competing dukedoms(at the time China was separated into dukedoms authorized by a central dynasty called Shang, which dissipated its own powers into these dukedoms and disappeared). Beside his remarkable espionage strategy, his legend of meeting a fleet of Luozhou/螺舟/shell vessels from the sea is also being discussed and supposed to have caused the metallurgical advancement of Qin dynsty, and enabled qinshihuang to vanquish his enemies which already formed a military alliance against him(be careful of счina, read this history, my fellow worldly brethrens).

I can not use google, so could not find English material about this event, there are many chinese news report of the historical record describing Qinshihuangs meeting with apparently a UFO fleet and its occupants. The historical record is called <<拾遗记>>, the chinese quotation does not show up in the forum. Below is my translation of a chinese news report of the book and its description of the meeting.

Translation: during the time of DongJin (317-420 A.D), a man called WangJia/王嘉 wrote a book <<拾遗记>>/Reminders from the old times(my translation). There is a passage in the book says: " From the nation of Wanqi/宛渠(a mythological place in the deepest west), a group of people came in shell like ships/vessels, spiraling as they move in the air and in the waters, and withstanding all invasions of the elements. So, I call it the ship above the waves. People are like 5 meters tall, dressed in feather like outfit, when they do talk with the emperor, they talk about the creation of our world in great detail and that they often ride in these vessel to cross immeasurable distances. They also have mastered amazing power of illumination, they show the emperor a bead of the size of a chestnut, and illuminate the whole palace with it, when they toss the bead into the river, all the waters within our sight turn boiling and churning. So the emperor says they are the gods people. "

Some historians believe that these group of UFO people helped Qinshihuang in military technologies. In excavation of Qin dynasty`s army burials, significant traces of chromium(melting point is 4000 celsus!) was found upon the coating of many bronze swords, which were preserved in very fine condition. Here is a scientific paper discussing the phenomenon:



> Surface chromium on Terracotta Army bronze weapons is neither an ancient anti-rust treatment nor the reason for their good preservation


The conclusion is that the chromium coating was not a deliberate coating, but the significance of its amount on the surface still presents a real mystery.


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## Ariasexta

SixFootScowl said:


> The big difference is whether they burn their own records (as in the image) vs confiscating other peoples' records, books, etc, and burning them. In the first case, they have a right to destroy their own property.


Manchus almost erased buddhism from China, imposed their demonish ancestral cults, the scale of cultural genocide in chinese history is more than horrible.


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## Jacck

Ariasexta said:


> Zhuangzi was a visionary, he has good points but no the point of action, this is the major issue of most of chinese thinkers. Western ethicists are the executors of ideas, experimenters of theories. Many chinese people still hold to the value of "无为而治/doing nothing is doing good" proposed by Laozi, which was very much a nihilist and still dominates over the rest of schools of thinkers.


I the point of wu wei (無為) is misunderstood, and probably also in China itself. Taoism is highly advanced form of mysticm and not intented for the common folks, who are going to misunderstand it for sure. They were not nihilists. The point of mysticism is to find peace/God through overcoming one's ego, this is the central pillar of all mystic traditions, being it buddhism, taoism or many western traditions. Inaction is a state of mind without ego, that no longer interferes in the world, not because it is nihilistic, but because it is as peace, it no longer exerts any effort, it is in harmony.


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## Ariasexta

Jacck said:


> I the point of wu wei (無為) is misunderstood, and probably also in China itself. Taoism is highly advanced form of mysticm and not intented for the common folks, who are going to misunderstand it for sure. They were not nihilists. The point of mysticism is to find peace/God through overcoming one's ego, this is the central pillar of all mystic traditions, being it buddhism, taoism or many western traditions. Inaction is a state of mind without ego, that no longer interferes in the world, not because it is nihilistic, but because it is as peace, it no longer exerts any effort, it is in harmony.


There is an intersting anecdote about how buddhism and taoism competed in a contest of eloquence and magic, the representing buddhist monk was a hindu brahmin Kasyapa Matanga(？--73AD)working under chinese Emperor Ming of Han(28-75AD), he soundly defeated the taoists in both eloquence and magic. According to the legend, in the beginning of the eloquence around, the taoist master claims that he can double anything the buddhist master teaches as truth, so the buddhist master, who is also a master of yoga, he stands upon one foot, and lift his left foot and keeps it straight up above his head, and says: please try to lift your two feet and stand up. :lol: In the following round of magic, the arbitrator set the rule: to make a campfire, and throw the book of teachings from both parties into the fire, untill one of them is totally turned into ash, the result is that, the taoist book of law is totally ashy, but the book of buddhism remains almost intact..

BTW, taoism has many darksides, including human sacrifices, organ harvesting and animal torture, Japan was also taoist before becoming civilized by the buddhism, the incest, familial murder, cannibalism were rampant from the aristocracy untill the commoners. Buddhism civilized primitive east asians, it is true.


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## Art Rock

Art Rock said:


> *Reminder: no discussion on religion outside the designated areas (for religion directly related to music: Politics and Religion in Classical Music; for non-music related religion, the Groups). *


I realize that for certain Eastern religions, there is not such a clear border line between religion and philosophy. However, as interesting as this discussion is, it has not much (if anything) to do with the thread's subject, and some posts still have some religious components.

*So please make an effort to not touch upon religious aspects in any further posts in this topic. *

If you want to discuss this sideline further without those restrictions, please take it to the groups.


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## Ariasexta

> BTW, taoism has many darksides, including human sacrifices, organ harvesting and animal torture, Japan was also taoist before becoming civilized by the buddhism, the incest, familial murder, cannibalism were rampant from the aristocracy untill the commoners. Buddhism civilized primitive east asians, it is true.





> Renfadi difatian, tianfadao, daofaziran.


Laozi`s philosphical system can not be consistent in a common logical sense, the above quote is also from Laozi, it means: People rules the earth, earth rules heaven, heaven rules dao(the truth or 无为), the truth rules nature. 无为/doing nothing is the dao which the heaven ordains, however, you will have to remind of who rules the heaven, the man and earth. 无为 means to apply to everything but man, and man is free to do anything he likes.


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## Ariasexta

There is a huge loophole in the whole argument of rationalism, what is rationality any way? in the sense of historical origin, it stemmed from the quest of the cause and the end, making sense of everything, so why we must make sense of anything at all?

It is foundamentally relevant to the discussion of UFO phenomena of course, since it will be the topic that marks a whole new age of human history, revisiting our own foundamental cognitivity is of very urgent necessity. Reason makes us to ask about the causative relation of things, however, when human knowledge become an object of inquiry itself, our reason must stand its own trial too. I know faith will always offer answers that are more emotionally instigating than allowing reasoning, but do not forget, it was always the faithfuls that first ask for the elaboration of the causes and the ends, and persevere in the quest for knowledge however sometimes they might seem frenzic and radical.

David Hume is famous as one of the first modern founding rationalists, his skepticism toward religion always sounds emotional itself, like many atheist thinkers, always stay keener on expounding their own doubts, never reflect on their own doubts, why do you doubt? what is the source of the rationality which you use to oppose the religious conventions? When Dr Hume says: Wise man propotions his belief to the evidence. So, are we safe to say, that the quest for evidence and its understanding is our modern sense of rationality? If evidences are to be believe in, isnt that we already have enough evidences that we should believe in each other unconditionally? If human sciences have shown human superiority in sense of evolution, why we can not really trust each other? Isnt it strange? evidence? of what? The foundamental question will become: Are we really capable of rationality at all? what is the rationality we are talking about? or is it just a delusional self-conceit and a convenient deconstruct of the tradition?

If our sciences are producing more doubts than believes, are we going to believe in it? is the goal of science is to support, corroborate, duplicate our doubts or is it to support our believes ? are we really OK that doubt and belief always coexist "peacefully" in our heart untill the very end of our life? are your life really good enough to habour so many doubts at its deathbed? When it comes to individual lives, can evidences support all your inquisitiveness and quest for happiness? It is about to think for yourself, not on behalf of the others sciences, which can not even be close to other peoples reality.

My version of the origin of reason is like this: from questioning about ones own conditions, from the desire for the better life, for greater good for oneself and the others, from the quest for kindness, the sense of justice, so forth, we will hope in a common faith.

How to be truly rational according to Ariasexta:

Starting from questioning yourself, from the very will to believe, not to doubt, it is how reason should work, and the evidence shall be the self-evident personal integrity. What is truly important to the whole humanity, is the *self-evident evidences* not those that are elaborated to you by controlled processes.

So the very basis of the human rationality is to let everyone think for his/herself, rationality itself is affirmative, in a mutual way, reciprocal way. Anyone who boasts claim to rationality, has a responsibility to think for him/herself, and then for the others, *lacking one way or another is not being rational at ALL. *


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## Ariasexta

The nature of doubt, anyone?

What is doubt, have you ever noticed that most thinkers reflect on what is faith, religion, human knowledge, senses, and praise doubt, however, almost none of them ever question the nature of doubt. Inquiring is a virtue, doubting could be a form of discretion, however, there must be a goal to doubting anything, so far, almost all thinkers are satisfied with their argument and proof for doubting anything, never try to overcome the doubt they harbour, even they could be mistaking the doubt for a virtue.

If you doubt anything at all, what is your goal? doubt for doubts sake? If you have almost nothing to believe in your life, then you could be an incarnation of doubt upon this Earth, most people just doubt, not even inquire, investigate, just be satisfied with doubting!! Ever think of what is this doubt after all. Doubting is not a virtue at all, simply a form of primeval vice. According to modern practical ethics, there is no moral compass in the ethical practicality, so doubting is just a process of practicality, however, people take it for a virtue, and belief for a supersition.

Further elaboration of the concept of self-evidentness:

In western transcendentalism, intuition is a part of the inquiry, however, it is different from my theory of the self-evidentness, the self-evidentness is not a question of intuition, but a definitive outcome of rational processes. For example, scientists could be looking down on people with lower education, at some point scientists could be instrumental in forcing values, it is happening, because these elitists suppose they are more rational than people with lower education, do you agree? of course it is wrong, if they are lying, they are not being rational. There must be a commonly shared bottomline of rationality, to be recognized and respected, not just through legal processes, but also through a more robust philosophical principle, for the present, religions serve as this principle. This explains why the religious west has been advancing themself more multifaceted and more democratic, even though denied by most modern hippie izquierdas, the fact is their traditional common principles safeguarded their freedom of expression of whatever they want, even all sorts of lies.

The church is not just a religious body, but also a body of the common principles which form the bottomline for the functionality of a holistic rational movement. This is what I am talking about, such self-evidentness of all the foremost human truth has been founding basis for western advancement, in science, humanitarian development, culture, education, economy. This self-evidentness of the foundamental truth, is becoming covered up by the infinitisimal inflation of the rationed sciences, supplanted with relativistic dichotomy, senseless partisanism, the end would be a bottomless hell. The self-evidentness of truth is the foundation of both collective faith, also of the collective rationality, now it is being hidden behind forgotten historical truths, deliberate coverup of our current affairs, distortion of public justices, such truth should be shared with all people unconditionally.

The self-evidentness is simply meant to be shared, not to be elaborated or explained through controlled processes like scientifical prooves. *As long as you share, people will understand, that it is*. The controlled processes are just a mean of procratination of the sharing of the self-evident truth. Therefore, do not let the scientifical processes blind your true rational powers.

Self-evident truth is not an intuition, but the foundation of rationalism, it is the unconditional sharedness in justice, idealism, common good, universal affirmation.


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## NoCoPilot

Ariasexta said:


> There is a huge loophole in the whole argument of rationalism, what is rationality anyway? In the sense of historical origin, it stemmed from the quest of the cause and the end, making sense of everything, so why we must make sense of anything at all?
> 
> It is fundamentally relevant to the discussion of UFO phenomena of course, ...[whole bunch of mumbo-jumbo deleted]


UFOs are not rational. Belief in UFOs is not rational. Well, belief that *unidentified* flying objects must of course be intelligent beings from another galaxy because we can't identify them, THAT is irrational.

Occam's razor.


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## NoCoPilot

Ariasexta said:


> [whole bunch of mumbo-jumbo deleted]
> 
> How to be truly rational according to Ariasexta: Starting from questioning yourself, from the very will to believe, not to doubt, it is how reason should work.


Belief and faith arise when there is no evidence. If there *is* evidence we don't call it "faith."

To believe in unlikely things without evidence is irrational, whether it's gods, UFOs, faeries in the garden, monsters in the loch, apes in the woods, or compassionate conservatism.


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## mmsbls

Once again, please do not post comments about faith, religion, gods, Gods, or similar topics.



> Make an effort to not touch upon religious aspects in any further posts in this topic.


If we see such comments, the entire posts will be deleted.


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## Strange Magic

Religious references are the least causal of this thread's recent...queasiness... A permanent home in the Groups may be just the ticket.


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## Ariasexta

NoCoPilot said:


> UFOs are not rational. Belief in UFOs is not rational. Well, belief that *unidentified* flying objects must of course be intelligent beings from another galaxy because we can't identify them, THAT is irrational.
> 
> Occam's razor.


I+1=2 is obvious, but it is not the point of the concern, Platonists actually looked down on mechanists, one rule of the idealism is to ignore certain realities and weigh our perception as of the foremost importance. UFO itself is not a concern whether they exist or not, but the way they might appear to us.



> Belief and faith arise when there is no evidence. If there *is* evidence we don't call it "faith."
> 
> To believe in unlikely things without evidence is irrational, whether it's gods, UFOs, faeries in the garden, monsters in the loch, apes in the woods, or compassionate conservatism.


What You can control is far less than what you are fed with as evidences, nothing of those prooves really concern you. Like UFOs, they are just there, but SCIENTIFICALLY almost of no importance along with that related sciences, but in a way of grandiose deceptions, anything might appear. Did Buddha seek for fairies? elfs? ufos? no, he just looked after him own conditions of being, so that he civilized the whole East Asia.


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## NoCoPilot

Yikes, are Tikoo Tuba and Ariasexta the same person?


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## Luchesi

mmsbls said:


> Once again, please do not post comments about faith, religion, gods, Gods, or similar topics.
> 
> If we see such comments, the entire posts will be deleted.


Yes, someone's religious opinions is a most uninteresting subject. There's never anything to it, as they say..


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## Luchesi

Strange Magic said:


> Religious references are the least causal of this thread's recent...queasiness... A permanent home in the Groups may be just the ticket.


The functions in the Groups are limited. It's so annoying.


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## Strange Magic

This Group is available and Open For Business:

https://www.talkclassical.com/groups/this-group-is-a-religious-political-conspiracy.html


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## ArtMusic

NoCoPilot said:


> Belief and faith arise when there is no evidence. If there *is* evidence we don't call it "faith."
> 
> To believe in unlikely things without evidence is irrational, whether it's gods, UFOs, faeries in the garden, monsters in the loch, apes in the woods, or compassionate conservatism.


Depends who you speak to above evidence.

That aside. Scientists are open minded about the existence of life elsewhere, intelligent or not, which is why resources are spent to explore space. It would be worse than the Dark Ages if Man never explored space for any life.


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## NoCoPilot

“Explored space for life” is a bit of a misnomer. We’re not going planet-to-planet, knocking on doors, looking for intelligent life. 

Most SETI is looking for radio signals or evidences of planet atmospheres that are abnormal enough to be biological in nature. That makes a certain amount of sense if you’re searching a huge area for tiny signs. 

But here’s the deal (and I keep bringing this up): even if we *do* find anomalies that might indicate life, the distances involved are quite literally astronomical and we can never communicate with, much less visit to investigate the sources of these anomalies. Light years away means there is no communication faster than light, and without communication, the discovery of “life,” even if unambiguous (which it most certainly would NOT be), well the discovery wouldn’t mean very much.


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## Bwv 1080

My own pet theory is that a happy set of circumstances led to the formation of massive coal deposits on Earth during the Carboniferous period, which created 90% of the world’s coal- high concentrations of oxygen in the atmosphere that would have been sufficient for wildfires to turn swamps into charcoal, lack of organisms that could digest plant material (no wood digesting insects and land herbivores only evolved in the late Carboniferous), and tectonic activity that buried the peat swamps

Without large, easy to access coal deposits, industrialization would likely not occur - oil and natural gas are much more difficult to exploit, so perhaps mamy planets with intelligent life lack the energy resources required to become a technological civilization


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## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> "Explored space for life" is a bit of a misnomer. We're not going planet-to-planet, knocking on doors, looking for intelligent life.
> 
> Most SETI is looking for radio signals or evidences of planet atmospheres that are abnormal enough to be biological in nature. That makes a certain amount of sense if you're searching a huge area for tiny signs.
> 
> But here's the deal (and I keep bringing this up): even if we *do* find anomalies that might indicate life, the distances involved are quite literally astronomical and we can never communicate with, much less visit to investigate the sources of these anomalies. Light years away means there is no communication faster than light, and without communication, the discovery of "life," even if unambiguous (which it most certainly would NOT be), well the discovery wouldn't mean very much.


Our galaxy is one of the old ones, so perhaps if we get out there and trip a hidden alarm switch, alien technology will be waiting nearby, no? Mars would be the obvious place to put it. hmmm..


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## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


> My own pet theory is that a happy set of circumstances led to the formation of massive coal deposits on Earth during the Carboniferous period, which created 90% of the world's coal- high concentrations of oxygen in the atmosphere that would have been sufficient for wildfires to turn swamps into charcoal, lack of organisms that could digest plant material (no wood digesting insects and land herbivores only evolved in the late Carboniferous), and tectonic activity that buried the peat swamps
> 
> Without large, easy to access coal deposits, industrialization would likely not occur - oil and natural gas are much more difficult to exploit, so perhaps mamy planets with intelligent life lack the energy resources required to become a technological civilization


I think we're running out of tungsten (and helium).


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## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> Our galaxy is one of the old ones, so perhaps if we get out there and trip a hidden alarm switch, alien technology will be waiting nearby, no? Mars would be the obvious place to put it. hmmm..


Could've sworn the sentinel was buried under the moon's surface?


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## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Could've sworn the sentinel was buried under the moon's surface?


We've been there and nothing's happened so far. It probably takes a thousand years.


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## Jacck

Alcubierre Drive: Warp Speed - Star Trek fantasy or plausible?


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## progmatist

I myself have seen a UFO. I was standing on my front porch smoking a cigarette, a habit I was able to quit about a decade ago. There was a strange glowing egg shaped object in the sky, off in the distance. As it drifted closer, it became an IFO. It was the Sanyo Blimp, in town for the first Super Bowl played in the area.


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## ArtMusic

*Pentagon confirms legitimate UFO* (April 2021)

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/...erial-phenomena-defense-department/index.html


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## Dim7

ArtMusic said:


> *Pentagon confirms legitimate UFO* (April 2021)
> 
> https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/...erial-phenomena-defense-department/index.html


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## NoCoPilot

ArtMusic said:


> Pentagon confirms legitimate UFO


Looks like a reflection off the windshield to me.


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## ArtMusic

NoCoPilot said:


> Looks like a reflection off the windshield to me.


Good for you. But I don't think it is.


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## NoCoPilot

Good for you. Reasonable minds can agree to disagree.


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## Tikoo Tuba

A photograph of a UFO may be be genuine , also that the UFO can be an animated hologram .


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## Luchesi

Tikoo Tuba said:


> A photograph of a UFO may be be genuine , also that the UFO can be an animated hologram .


If it is something we don't understand (it is of alien origin) AND we will likely never understand it, because we don't have the crucial references and worldview and facts that they have, then does it really matter at all to us?

One analogy is an ant hill located next to a busy highway. The ants sense the random effects of the individual cars going by, but what could it ever mean to them?


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## Tikoo Tuba

I have encountered intelligence that is neither plant nor animal . It is not alien to the earth . I appreciated it's relationship that is freely given . My understanding of this seems small , yet I am patient .


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## Dim7

The Pentagon UFO videos released in recent years I have found rather underwhelming. I also assign a very low a priori probability (before looking to the details of the cases) to the possibility that there are aliens on Earth capable of interstellar travel trying to hide their presence yet be incompetent enough to occasionally fail at it - I'd expect advanced aliens to be either super obvious and easy to notice in case they didn't care we noticed or be extremely competent at hiding. Nevertheless, I found this video interesting.


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## Luchesi

Dim7 said:


> The Pentagon UFO videos released in recent years I have found rather underwhelming. I also assign a very low a priori probability (before looking to the details of the cases) to the possibility that there are aliens on Earth capable of interstellar travel trying to hide their presence yet be incompetent enough to occasionally fail at it - I'd expect advanced aliens to be either super obvious and easy to notice in case they didn't care we noticed or be extremely competent at hiding. Nevertheless, I found this video interesting.


Maybe they were programmed long ago, in a nearby star system, and sent here to signal to us that there's intelligences out there. But, in the immense amount of time that was needed to get here, their civilization passed our planet millennia ago and found nothing interesting to stop for. But they also forgot about these probes..


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## Flamme

On a page 51...



Yall think something is REALLY hiidden there???


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## Rapide

Interesting thread. Wouldn't it hilarious one day when an UFO spaceship appears for all to see to make contact. Maybe it wouldn't be hilarious because I fear the world order would collapse (social structure, certainly religion, stock markets would crash etc.)


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## progmatist

^^ The Covid pandemic lays bare just how mankind would react to something even more significant. Like the arrival of an extra-terrestrial spacecraft. Not very well to say the least.


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## Dim7

Dim7 said:


> I also assign a very low a priori probability (before looking to the details of the cases) to the possibility that there are aliens on Earth capable of interstellar travel trying to hide their presence yet be incompetent enough to occasionally fail at it - I'd expect advanced aliens to be either super obvious and easy to notice in case they didn't care we noticed or be extremely competent at hiding.


Here however is an attempt at explaining just barely noticeable Earth visiting aliens who don't seem to accomplish much and also haven't changed our part of the universe visibly (with Dyson spheres or other obvious technosignatures or megastructures etc.): https://www.overcomingbias.com/2021/03/explaining-stylized-ufo-facts.html
It's the most plausible scenario for all these UFO sightings actually being aliens I've heard of. Yet it still sounds very far-fetched to me.


----------



## joen_cph

Dim7 said:


> Here however is an attempt at explaining just barely noticeable Earth visiting aliens who don't seem to accomplish much and also haven't changed our part of the universe visibly (with Dyson spheres or other obvious technosignatures or megastructures etc.): https://www.overcomingbias.com/2021/03/explaining-stylized-ufo-facts.html
> It's the most plausible scenario for all these UFO sightings actually being aliens I've heard of. Yet it still sounds very far-fetched to me.


Interesting comments section there too.


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## ArtMusic

Next month, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and other agencies are scheduled to deliver unclassified reports on UFOs to Congress. This doesn't mean we are going to be shown aliens or anything but this is a steer towards greater transparency and discussion of the topic at the highest level.


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## EdwardBast

Dim7 said:


> Here however is an attempt at explaining just barely noticeable Earth visiting aliens who don't seem to accomplish much and also haven't changed our part of the universe visibly (with Dyson spheres or other obvious technosignatures or megastructures etc.): https://www.overcomingbias.com/2021/03/explaining-stylized-ufo-facts.html
> It's the most plausible scenario for all these UFO sightings actually being aliens I've heard of. Yet it still sounds very far-fetched to me.


The author concludes with: "Note also that I've told this story twice before, though this version is more elaborate." Was he a writer for Star Trek The Next Generation?  Because this essential scenario was used to explain the universally anthropomorphic aliens populating the galaxy in that show: Sibling worlds seeded from an ancient and long-lived civilization.


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## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> Interesting comments section there too.


Perhaps our overseers put something in our foods or water to keep us dumber and controllable. Or in the air? Or they shower us with rays of effective electronic patterns to keep us 'blurry'. If so, we're much smarter and more capable of extended awarenesses (due to our neoteny leap millions of years ago), but it's been suppressed.

Some day they'll stop, or we'll stop them, and then we'll arise (as in scifi stories about becoming ascended beings).


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## joen_cph

Luchesi said:


> Perhaps our overseers put something in our foods or water to keep us dumber and controllable. Or in the air? Or they shower us with rays of effective electronic patterns to keep us 'blurry'. If so, we're much smarter and more capable of extended awarenesses (due to our neoteny leap millions of years ago), but it's been suppressed.
> 
> Some day they'll stop, or we'll stop them, and then we'll arise (as in scifi stories about becoming ascended beings).


To be fair, I think the comments section reflected a wide, if often speculative, range of views and information.


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## Luchesi

joen_cph said:


> To be fair, I think the comments section reflected a wide, if often speculative, range of views and information.


I didn't want a lengthy argument in their comment section, but, IMO, intelligent life evolving on a small rocky planet (which hasn't been so luckily terraformed as ours by a very very rare circumstance) is almost as improbable as what I posted above.. And, alien life coming here? is 'way down in probabilities after that. The UFO lookers should be thinking in terms of intergalactic distances and time scales, IMO. 'Much less interesting..

Having said that, what about the probabilities of ancient, forgotten machines roaming the stars near us? We have less to go on in that scenario. Can they propagate between galaxies using rogue star systems (or the connecting stream that's been detected between us and M31)? All it takes is TIME.


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## Roger Knox

ArtMusic said:


> Next month, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and other agencies are scheduled to deliver unclassified reports on UFOs to Congress. This doesn't mean we are going to be shown aliens or anything but this is a steer towards greater transparency and discussion of the topic at the highest level.


My local journal ran a column on this scheduled report to Congress today. The columnist says this is a watershed moment -- from now on it's the UFO skeptics who'll be on the defensive. He says there are reports coming from pilots who've had close encounters with UFO's. Also says he's been a UFO enthusiast since childhood. I'm still skeptical.


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## mikeh375

..re life elsewhere, this current controversy needs to be solved.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351252619_Fungi_on_Mars_Evidence_of_Growth_and_Behavior_From_Sequential_Images


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## mikeh375

Roger Knox said:


> My local journal ran a column on this scheduled report to Congress today. The columnist says this is a watershed moment -- from now on it's the UFO skeptics who'll be on the defensive. He says there are reports coming from pilots who've had close encounters with UFO's. Also says he's been a UFO enthusiast since childhood. I'm still skeptical.


I had the good fortune to meet Timothy Good a few times in recording sessions (he was a violinist with the LSO) who has written numerous best sellers that document in depth, military encounters with UFO's, many incidents based on personal testament as interviewed by himself. When he was on tour with the LSO he told me he'd stay behind in a country if he was near any witnesses or alleged incidents and do his research.

The books are quite an eye opener and not so easy to dismiss when professionals (some high level too) are witnesses.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Above-Top-Secret-Worldwide-Cover-up/dp/0688092020


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## EdwardBast

The current batch that hit the internet in the last few days have been debunked for a while I believe. The first UFO, the fast moving thing over water, wasn't actually moving fast, it was simply close to the observer so it seemed it was. The second, the big blob in the distance was actually an airliner at a great distance. The usual silliness.


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## Luchesi

EdwardBast said:


> The current batch that hit the internet in the last few days have been debunked for a while I believe. The first UFO, the fast moving thing over water, wasn't actually moving fast, it was simply close to the observer so it seemed it was. The second, the big blob in the distance was actually an airliner at a great distance. The usual silliness.


Perhaps in ten thousand years, when we're a big threat to the Galaxy, aliens will 'visit' us. Our outposts will begin mysteriously disappearing first.


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## EdwardBast

Luchesi said:


> Perhaps in ten thousand years, when we're a big threat to the Galaxy, aliens will 'visit' us. Our outposts will begin mysteriously disappearing first.


I think I saw that movie.

Even if we develop near light speed travel we will be a threat to no one except the nearest two star systems, and only then if the generation born on the trip stays with the program, rather than executing the misguided elders who forced them into it. I'd say the latter is more likely.


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## Luchesi

It's not scientific, but I like the idea of using the lengths of time for each major advancement in the history of life on earth as a rough guide. 

Life from non-life (4? billion to 3.5 billion yrs ago) seems shorter than life to multicellular life (3.5 billion to 1 billion yrs ago). 
Then life ashore (1 billion to 450 mya) . 
Then to reproducing on dry land (450 to 300 mya). 
Then to arboreal living (300 to 150 mya). 
Then to a manipulative intelligence (150 to 10 mya).


Multicellular life (eukaryote life) looks like the biggest hurdle, but this assumes that stable, favorable conditions will last for those billions of years.


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## SixFootScowl

Luchesi said:


> Multicellular life (eukaryote life) looks like the biggest hurdle, but this assumes that stable, favorable conditions will last for those billions of years.


and what is the probability of that?


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## Flamme

An interesting case...


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## EdwardBast

Anton explains the recent UFO videos - well, he confirms what the written material accompanying the Pentagon video release concluded. It's more or less what I said above: The "fast moving" object is actually moving very slowly - at the speed of the prevailing wind (likely a small balloon). The infrared image of the blob taken by a FLIR (Forward Looking InfraRed) camera looks exactly the way the heat signatures of jets look at a distance. The apparent banking and maneuvering is not motion by the object, but a result of the camera's motion in following it:


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## Dim7

EdwardBast said:


> Anton explains the recent UFO videos - well, he confirms what the written material accompanying the Pentagon video release concluded. It's more or less what I said above: The "fast moving" object is actually moving very slowly - at the speed of the prevailing wind (likely a small balloon). The infrared image of the blob taken by a FLIR (Forward Looking InfraRed) camera looks exactly the way the heat signatures of jets look at a distance. The apparent banking and maneuvering is not motion by the object, but a result of the camera's motion in following it:


Here's an interview of the guy who recorded the FLIR video (and who doesn't think it's just a plane), for what it's worth. The actual interview starts at 4:26.


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## progmatist

Dim7 said:


> Here's an interview of the guy who recorded the FLIR video (and who doesn't think it's just a plane), for what it's worth. The actual interview starts at 4:26.


Brings back memories. I used to work on components of the F/A-18 FLIR pod in my Navy days.


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## Flamme

Story of ''tick-tack'' seems rather thin to me but its relased by ''official officals' so something must be in it...Maybe a US own new drone type on some exotic propulsion...


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## Luchesi

SixFootScowl said:


> and what is the probability of that?


Since Mars doesn't have a large stabilizing moon its axis of rotation has slipped wildly. More than 40 degrees in the last 15 million years. On Earth it's only a few degrees, cycling back and forth. 
Some more bad stuff - impactors, gamma ray bursts, runaway ice house, runaway green house, large areas of seismic eruptions (they might be worse than a supervolcano), a supernova or magnetar nearby, a star coming as close as the large star Algol did recently, or a rogue planet disrupting orbits.


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## Flamme

I need a vocab to find my way around Luchesi posts!!!


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## hammeredklavier

EdwardBast said:


> The current batch that hit the internet in the last few days have been debunked for a while I believe. The first UFO, the fast moving thing over water, wasn't actually moving fast, it was simply close to the observer so it seemed it was. The second, the big blob in the distance was actually an airliner at a great distance. The usual silliness.


What do you think about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg


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## EdwardBast

hammeredklavier said:


> What do you think about:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg


It seems that, even in 1561, staring at the sun was a bad idea.


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## Guest

hammeredklavier said:


> What do you think about:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg


A fabrication intended to sell newspapers?


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## Flamme

Something STRANGE happened but what???


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## Luchesi

hammeredklavier said:


> What do you think about:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg


Older people of the time hoped that leaps of faith would keep young people in line, and true to their traditions. It's in every culture. It has a very subtle survival advantage.


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## EdwardBast

Baron Scarpia said:


> A fabrication intended to sell newspapers?


Or an unreliable witness angling for free ale? Not unlike today's retired pilots scamming for TV time?


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## Luchesi

EdwardBast said:


> Or an unreliable witness angling for free ale? Not unlike today's retired pilots scamming for TV time?


The aliens are probably able to read our posts.


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## Guest

Luchesi said:


> The aliens are probably able to read our posts.


Aliens travel across the galaxy to read TC? :lol:

You see something weird in the sky or on a radar. It is moving too fast, it is accelerating wildly, it looks strange. It is certainly an unidentified flying object.

Is it

A) an object whose image is distorted, misinterpreted because it is closer or farther than it appears, a reflection in the atmosphere, a reflection in the lens system, an image that is distorted by some atmospheric phenomena (temperature inversion, etc) a flaw in the measurement system, etc.

B) a flying saucer from outer space.

B can never be ruled out absolutely, but will always be extremely, extremely, extremely improbable compared to A. There may very well be life out in the universe somewhere, but the well understood laws of physic make space travel basically impossible. And if it were possible, you have to apply the conspiracy-theory test; does the motivation work? Why would an advanced civilization travel across the galaxy to perform some improbable, pointless aerodynamic maneuvers in our atmosphere, then bug out?


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## Bwv 1080




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## Luchesi

Baron Scarpia said:


> Aliens *travel across* the galaxy to read TC? :lol:
> 
> You see something weird in the sky or on a radar. It is moving too fast, it is accelerating wildly, it looks strange. It is certainly an unidentified flying object.
> 
> Is it
> 
> A) an object whose image is distorted, misinterpreted because it is closer or farther than it appears, a reflection in the atmosphere, a reflection in the lens system, an image that is distorted by some atmospheric phenomena (temperature inversion, etc) a flaw in the measurement system, etc.
> 
> B) a flying saucer from outer space.
> 
> B can never be ruled out absolutely, but will always be extremely, extremely, extremely improbable compared to A. There may very well be life out in the universe somewhere, but the well understood laws of physic make space travel basically impossible. And if it were possible, you have to apply the conspiracy-theory test; does the motivation work? Why would an advanced civilization travel across the galaxy to perform some improbable, pointless aerodynamic maneuvers in our atmosphere, then bug out?


It's not traveling, it's expanding. Their star system is about a billion years older than ours? The self-replicating technology they create and release will expand into every part of the Galaxy within far less than 10 million years. 
One in a 100 or one in a 1000 galaxies will hum with this activity? Probably not ours, because longterm stable Earth-like conditions and the evolution of manipulative intelligences are so rare. The aliens are very far away. A very old tech-civ is creating the Bootes void? I doubt it.

This universe is quite young but in another few billion years it will be a very busy place, maybe..


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## Luchesi

Bwv 1080 said:


>


"On the other hand, some pointed out, there's always the possibility that Musk himself is an alien in desperate need of a ride back home.

"That's exactly what an alien would tweet," one Twitter user responded to Musk's graph."


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## Luchesi

One speculation is, they waited until we had a worldwide internet in order to check us out and see if we're the harmless but interesting creatures we appear to be. 

Now they're selling tickets to visit and observe Zoo Earth!

But these tourists are buzzing around, with more money than flying ability! Occasionally they screw up and reveal themselves.


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## joen_cph

Interesting radar room footage of possibly 9 or 14 UFOs around the USS Omaha in 2019, just published by Corbell. Another recent video from him was confirmed as authentic by the Pentagon, this one still hasn't been though.


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## EdwardBast

Luchesi said:


> But these tourists are buzzing around, with *more money than flying ability*! Occasionally they screw up and reveal themselves.


Are you sure? They've been flying around for seventy years and have evaded every attempt to capture a clear image of them. That's some virtuoso flying - Bigfoot level evasion!


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## Flamme

They are real and theres no way around it!!!


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## Flamme

This just in. Confirmed!
https://alienstar.net/fbi-confirms-...3fwPRf_-O1kYCuTtrris9jo2JdKVISEEBrBPmUMch6TfM


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## Bwv 1080

Flamme said:


> This just in. Confirmed!
> https://alienstar.net/fbi-confirms-...3fwPRf_-O1kYCuTtrris9jo2JdKVISEEBrBPmUMch6TfM


When a reputable and scientifically respected source like Alienstar.net says so, it must be true. After all, Alienstar.net did break the story on on pharoahs being aliens


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## Flamme

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show...Bclifgf4Y3K-bf-k2vUq4XYODZSbRJh9WZmWnYaEoHevw


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## Bwv 1080




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## Flamme

Whats wrong with ''alienstar''. They are the leaders in global breaking ET news!!! This forum is a den of armoured scepticis!!!


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## Flamme

*Some aliens in a flying saucer offered to fly me to the moon
But they wouldn't let us land because the moon was full.
*


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## Flamme

*
What would you hear at a very long opera about aliens?
Aria 51.*


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## geralmar

My favorite U.S. Air Force debunking of a UFO sighting:

"A bird with four lights" .


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## BachIsBest

Although there are a large number of UFOs, many here seem to be missing the unidentified part of UFO and jumping to the extraordinary conclusion that some of these UFOs are due to extraterrestrial intelligence. Given all the things that happen here on earth and how many we don't fully understand, wouldn't it almost be odder if we were always sure about objects we saw in the sky?


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## Flamme

Although I want to beleive I personally almost never saw anything off in skies above...I saw some weird falling star once but that might have been a trick of the light...Maybe ''the visitors'' really come to you in Their time when you least expect it, like ''elves'' before...


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## Flamme

*
What did the space alien tell Franz Schubert?
"Take me to your Lieder!"*


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## Dim7

USO being Unidentified Submerged Object.


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## Roger Knox

What about the suggestion that the pilots' sightings of nearby UFO's may actually be of Russian or Chinese drones? I'm much more open to the idea of unidentified flying objects than to that of space aliens (whether "shy" or "obtrusive").


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## joen_cph

It's generally agreed upon that they don't have such super-advanced technology by comparison. Also, sightings go back by decades, which makes it even more improbable.

The much-debated latest cases might-might be misunderstandings of more ordinary phenomena, some people argue however (with detailed explanations, for example ordinary planes/thrusters, where sensors then edit the actual ongoings somewhat). And in some cases they could be drones too.


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## progmatist

Neil deGrasse Tyson had some interesting takes on the subject on Friday's Bell Maher show. Among his theories is technical glitches in the F/A-18 FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) system, creating false images which may resemble UFOs. I can attest from my Navy days, the F/A-18 FLIR system was among the clunkiest pieces of gear I worked on.


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## Bigbang

progmatist said:


> Neil deGrasse Tyson had some interesting takes on the subject on Friday's Bell Maher show. Among his theories is technical glitches in the F/A-18 FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) system, creating false images which may resemble UFOs. I can attest from my Navy days, the F/A-18 FLIR system was among the clunkiest pieces of gear I worked on.


Tyson has been making the rounds for sure but he is a debunker. Anything that threatens his world view is subject to his way of thinking about the universe. The issue is that the evidence is based on many factors including what the pilots saw. But Tyson cannot just say "I don't know" and let more evidence come forth in whatever fashion it does. I am enjoying seeing debunkers keep up the trade...problem is that science moves on and new scientists take the place of the older ones.


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## mikeh375

Roger Knox said:


> What about the suggestion that the pilots' sightings of nearby UFO's may actually be of Russian or Chinese drones? I'm much more open to the idea of unidentified flying objects than to that of space aliens (whether "shy" or "obtrusive").


The problem with that Roger is that pilots have been reporting craft with seemingly impossible maneuvering ability since the 1950's, a time when there was absolutely no question of rival powers being so far ahead with the supposed technological advancements needed in order to do so.


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## Luchesi

Bigbang said:


> Tyson has been making the rounds for sure but he is a debunker. Anything that threatens his world view is subject to his way of thinking about the universe. The issue is that the evidence is based on many factors including what the pilots saw. But Tyson cannot just say "I don't know" and let more evidence come forth in whatever fashion it does. I am enjoying seeing debunkers keep up the trade...problem is that science moves on and new scientists take the place of the older ones.


Without reliable, repeatable evidence there's honest (and dishonest) people on both sides. What's your opinion?


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## progmatist

Luchesi said:


> Without reliable, repeatable evidence there's honest (and dishonest) people on both sides. What's your opinion?


There is enough evidence to prove space aliens exist in a court of law. To prove it scientifically requires extraordinary evidence.


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## Bwv 1080

progmatist said:


> There is enough evidence to prove space aliens exist in a court of law. To prove it scientifically requires extraordinary evidence.


but the scientific evidence standard is the applicable one. There was also sufficient evidence to convict the Salem witches in court


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## Bwv 1080

Bigbang said:


> Tyson has been making the rounds for sure but he is a debunker. Anything that threatens his world view is subject to his way of thinking about the universe. The issue is that the evidence is based on many factors including what the pilots saw. But Tyson cannot just say "I don't know" and let more evidence come forth in whatever fashion it does. I am enjoying seeing debunkers keep up the trade...problem is that science moves on and new scientists take the place of the older ones.


And the new scientists will continue to call bulls***t on unfounded claims that lack reliable evidence

Eyewitness testimony is not evidence


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## mmsbls

Bigbang said:


> Tyson has been making the rounds for sure but he is a debunker.


Well, he's a scientist, so he's skeptical of claims without enough evidence.



Bigbang said:


> Anything that threatens his world view is subject to his way of thinking about the universe.


I may not understand what you mean here, but wouldn't this be true of all sentient beings?



Bigbang said:


> The issue is that the evidence is based on many factors including what the pilots saw. But Tyson cannot just say "I don't know" and let more evidence come forth in whatever fashion it does.


I saw the Maher interview, and I thought that's pretty much exactly what he said over and over. I thought Maher was frustrated by the fact that Tyson was non-committal in that way.



Bigbang said:


> I am enjoying seeing debunkers keep up the trade...problem is that science moves on and new scientists take the place of the older ones.


I don't know Tyson well enough, but I have always thought he was somewhat like Sagan in hoping to find evidence of extraterrestrial beings. I have always imagined that he would find evidence of extraterrestrials to be extremely exciting.


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## SixFootScowl

progmatist said:


> There is enough evidence to prove space aliens exist in a court of law. To prove it scientifically requires extraordinary evidence.


Sad commentary on the court system.


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## Luchesi

"I don't know Tyson well enough, but I have always thought he was somewhat like Sagan in hoping to find evidence of extraterrestrial beings. I have always imagined that he would find evidence of extraterrestrials to be extremely exciting."

While watching Dr Sagan in interviews (and he came to our lab, had morning coffee chat with us, and we all went to lunch together, - bragging rights...) I never understood why any human would want or look forward to powerful, advanced beings right outside of our playpen. We're infants, we're defenseless.


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## progmatist

Luchesi said:


> "I don't know Tyson well enough, but I have always thought he was somewhat like Sagan in hoping to find evidence of extraterrestrial beings. I have always imagined that he would find evidence of extraterrestrials to be extremely exciting."
> 
> While watching Dr Sagan in interviews (and he came to our lab, had morning coffee chat with us, and we all went to lunch together, - bragging rights...) I never understood why any human would want or look forward to powerful, advanced beings right outside of our playpen. We're infants, we're defenseless.


Not to mention when we humans perceive a threat, our brains go into defensive mode. The reptilian part of our brain takes over. Even if we're cognizant we're acting irrationally, we can't stop our irrational behavior.


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## Flamme

> I don't know Tyson well enough, but I have always thought he was somewhat like Sagan in hoping to find evidence of extraterrestrial beings. I have always imagined that he would find evidence of extraterrestrials to be extremely exciting.


Dont know much of him either except that he BOXED an ALIEN once.


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## Luchesi

progmatist said:


> Not to mention when we humans perceive a threat, our brains go into defensive mode. The reptilian part of our brain takes over. Even if we're cognizant we're acting irrationally, we can't stop our irrational behavior.


Yes, but this nasty nature of ours is one of the biggest indirect reasons why we've survived. Territorial impulses, Intolerance and discrimination and prejudice and racism are the crucial beginnings of evolutionary change. It's why we have been able to adapt to many different places on earth. And this is the same for all the higher species around us.

Now we won't be able to help, but project those intense feelings toward visiting aliens. Oh well..

Added: Maybe we're like an angry beehive to highly intelligent aliens. They should understand our natural tendencies. Surely humans can easily poison the bees or burn them out. 'Very easy, but what would be the reason for the effort?


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## Flamme

I somehow think many ''ufos'' come from an ''earthly'' or perhaps an ''oceanic'' civilisation that has bases in depths of water basins around the world...That would be quite a surprise if true.


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## progmatist

Luchesi said:


> Yes, but this nasty nature of ours is one of the biggest indirect reasons why we've survived. Territorial impulses, Intolerance and discrimination and prejudice and racism are the crucial beginnings of evolutionary change. It's why we have been able to adapt to many different places on earth. And this is the same for all the higher species around us.
> 
> Now we won't be able to help, but project those intense feelings toward visiting aliens. Oh well..
> 
> Added: Maybe we're like an angry beehive to highly intelligent aliens. They should understand our natural tendencies. Surely humans can easily poison the bees or burn them out. 'Very easy, but what would be the reason for the effort?


True, and with our inability to outgrow our survival instincts, we would now rather use our advanced technology to destroy each other than make the world a better place. Not just the nuclear weaponry of the last century, but the extreme polarization on social media. Polarization which by design, social media reinforces in a feedback loop.


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## SixFootScowl

Flamme said:


> I somehow think many ''ufos'' come from an ''earthly'' or perhaps an ''oceanic'' civilisation that has bases in depths of water basins around the world...That would be quite a surprise if true.


Or,


> ... what we call UFOs, or flying saucers, do not originate from space, but rather from within the Hollow Earth itself, where remnants of the ancient civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria have survived to this day.


https://www.strangerdimensions.com/ency/hollow-earth-theory/

Disclaimer: Just stimulating discussion. Not a belief I hold.
Maybe would be better posted in the strange stories threat, but then I guess this is a sort of strange story thread.


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## Luchesi

progmatist said:


> True, and with our inability to outgrow our survival instincts, we would now rather use our advanced technology to destroy each other than make the world a better place. Not just the nuclear weaponry of the last century, but the extreme polarization on social media. Polarization which by design, social media reinforces in a feedback loop.


There might be two hostile tribes of advanced aliens out there competing for who gets this jewel of a planet with its RARE longterm-stable conditions! We don't know. So far, there's been a standoff so that we've been safe, but that can't last forever..


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## Dan Ante

Perhaps they see Earth as over populated and sent Covid19 to sort us out, just in case global warming fails.


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## BachIsBest

Luchesi said:


> There might be two hostile tribes of advanced aliens out there competing for who gets this jewel of a planet with its RARE longterm-stable conditions! We don't know. So far, there's been a standoff so that we've been safe, but that can't last forever..


Or, for all we know, there's a giant army of magical teacups that float just outside of Earths orbit and our machines detection range protecting us from the otherwise imminent threat of invasion from an alien race vaguely resembling giant green stuffed rabbits with raccoon like ears. It's tough to say who's correct.


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## progmatist

Dan Ante said:


> Perhaps they see Earth as over populated and sent Covid19 to sort us out, just in case global warming fails.


Or as indigenous first nationals would put it, the Earth is shaking us off like fleas.


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## MrNobody

I saw the "Black Manta" Black triangle once. It had a triangular shape, moving quite slowly, and yes, it was displaying pulsating, colored lights. The light was red. Absolutely incredible. But it was not silent. Don't ever trust Wikipedia, Black manta isn't silent. I heard my door resonate. I wish I had my camera ready. This happened above Finland. I reported what I had seen without any response. I don't think it was an airplane because it had no wings. It was a triangle and it was relatively slow. This happened about a decade ago. My best theory is that it was and is a man-made spy plane made by USA in order to spy Russia, and Finland had and has secretly allowed its entrance because of what happened in 1939-1944. It was flying not far from the Russian border. Do I hear someone knocking on my door?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(UFO)


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## Luchesi

BachIsBest said:


> Or, for all we know, there's a giant army of magical teacups that float just outside of Earths orbit and our machines detection range protecting us from the otherwise imminent threat of invasion from an alien race vaguely resembling giant green stuffed rabbits with raccoon like ears. It's tough to say who's correct.


Bipedalism is rare on Earth. But yes, who knows about out there.. With our bipedal advantages, along with our neoteny, maybe we evolved a manipulative intelligence much faster.


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## Luchesi

MrNobody said:


> I saw the "Black Manta" Black triangle once. It had a triangular shape, moving quite slowly, and yes, it was displaying pulsating, colored lights. The light was red. Absolutely incredible. But it was not silent. Don't ever trust Wikipedia, Black manta isn't silent. I heard my door resonate. I wish I had my camera ready. This happened above Finland. I reported what I had seen without any response. I don't think it was an airplane because it had no wings. It was a triangle and it was relatively slow. This happened about a decade ago. My best theory is that it was and is a man-made spy plane made by USA in order to spy Russia, and Finland had and has secretly allowed its entrance because of what happened in 1939-1944. It was flying not far from the Russian border. Do I hear someone knocking on my door?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(UFO)


Yes, the UFO culture offers an inexpensive cover for the secret projects of militaries everywhere.


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## progmatist

Luchesi said:


> Bipedalism is rare on Earth. But yes, who knows about out there.. With our bipedal advantages, along with our neoteny, maybe we evolved a manipulative intelligence much faster.


The human spine, hips and knees weren't designed for bipedalism. They're designed for walking on all fours. That's why we have so many problems with our spine, knees and hips.


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## Dan Ante

When I think about it why would an alien space ship roam through our sky's etc with its lights blazing thus advertising its presence?


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## Flamme

I think in most cases they DONT and thats why they land in strange and remote areas of world...


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## Luchesi

progmatist said:


> The human spine, hips and knees weren't designed for bipedalism. They're designed for walking on all fours. That's why we have so many problems with our spine, knees and hips.


Yes, and added to that we become overweight - we walk so much on hard floors instead of the softer ground - and we sit too long every day. Not all of us, but we all end up wearing out our cartilage and lubricants with age.

We're composed of parts and systems which only last long enough for our grandchildren to be able to survive on their own. 40 to 50 years.


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## Flamme

The ''Cash-Landrum case'' is terrifying.


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## geralmar

The Harvard University Galileo Project may provide answers whether we want them or not.






Heavy scientific speculation that somehow ends with Chuck Norris fighting velociraptors.


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## joen_cph

Deleted, sorry. Wrong thread.


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## mikeh375

^^^^...joen, I can't see the UFO......


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## joen_cph

mikeh375 said:


> ^^^^...joen, I can't see the UFO......


Some other time


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## Nedeslusire

Any civilization that has mastered the manipulation of time and space to traverse the interstellar night must have attained a high degree of spiritual evolution as well, science and spirituality go hand in hand the higher you go. So the brilliance of the Universe is that, by its very structure, it forces us to merge our hearts with our minds in order to understand and reach higher paradigms. This is happening all over the place, so I don't expect these visitors to come in hostile spirit. Sic cogito.

I warmly recommend this documentary to the open minded:


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## Luchesi

Welcome to the forum.


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## geralmar

Speculation that aliens may be nearby:


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## hammeredklavier

"Former President Barack Obama on Monday offered a blunt assessment of the videos of unidentified aerial phenomenon that have continued to gain attention in the United States.
"What is true, and I'm actually being serious here, is that there is footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are," he said.
"We can't explain how they move, their trajectory," he said. "They did not have an easily explainable pattern. And so I think that people still take seriously, trying to investigate and figure out what that is.""








Obama on UFO videos: 'We don't know exactly what they are'


The Navy has for years confirmed the legitimacy of videos from jet fighters that tracked unidentified objects.




www.nbcnews.com


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## hammeredklavier

<What Kicked Off The Battle Of LA In 1942?>


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## hammeredklavier

The Pentagon Established An Office To Track UFOs. What Could We Learn? : 1A


In May, Congress held its first hearing on UFOs in over 50 years.Now, the Pentagon has created an office to track what they call UAPs, or unidentified aerial phenomena. And NASA has begun its own investigation.We discuss what's behind Americans' obsession with UFOs and what role can — and should...




www.npr.org


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## mikeh375

Here's an interview with investigative and sceptical journalist Ross Coulthart who talks about where and what his investigation into UAP's has led to. It's quite an incredible listen, citing real world verified data, documentation and official testimony from key figures in government and the military.


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## geralmar

Retrieval of alien artifact on ocean floor:









Astrophysicist believes alien tech may ‘have crashed into Pacific Ocean’


Prof. Loeb has spent decades studying astronomy and more recently has trained his sights on the possibility that life exists beyond Earth.




nypost.com


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## Luchesi

geralmar said:


> Retrieval of alien artifact on ocean floor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Astrophysicist believes alien tech may ‘have crashed into Pacific Ocean’
> 
> 
> Prof. Loeb has spent decades studying astronomy and more recently has trained his sights on the possibility that life exists beyond Earth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nypost.com


It's cost-effective because if they find an artifact it will change the human world forever.


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## NoCoPilot

It is not cost-effective because there's essentially zero chance of finding anything but a meteor, and even that would be near impossible.

Cost: High
Benefit: Zero


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## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> It is not cost-effective because there's essentially zero chance of finding anything but a meteor, and even that would be near impossible.
> 
> Cost: High
> Benefit: Zero


Since it might safeguard our planet into the future, I like the idea that the Earth is a recreational destination for all the advanced aliens in the galaxy, and it's been that way for many thousands of years. They come here to get away from it all (their highly advanced and developed world) and to rough it, and to be entertained and study the huge improbabilities here.. in its early stages.
Once in a while one of the young explorers screws up and we get a whiff of their existence.


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## NoCoPilot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis


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## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis


There could be aliens watching you all of your short life. 

It's like studying ants. Ants have no concept of what we are, what we're doing, what our capabilities are, what we think about... But sometimes we kick up a little dust and they get all excited by it.


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## NoCoPilot

Luchesi said:


> There could be aliens watching you all of your short life.


Cripes. It's bad enough I have to worry about Jesus watching me flog the bishop.


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## Luchesi

NoCoPilot said:


> Cripes. It's bad enough I have to worry about Jesus watching me flog the bishop.


Santa knows what everybody does, 'good' and 'bad'.

from Carl Sagan
In every culture we imagined something like our own political system running the Universe. Few found the similarity suspicious.


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## NoCoPilot

Jesus and Santa are the same guy, you know. Beards. Presents at Christmas. Reindeer. Flowing red robes. Twelve elves. Fruitcake.


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## geralmar




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## geralmar

More on NASA study:









NASA announces team of scientists who will study mysterious 'UFO' events in the sky | CNN


The team will gather data on "events in the sky that cannot be identified as aircraft or known natural phenomena — from a scientific perspective," NASA officials said. The space agency selected 16 scientists and experts to join the group.




www.cnn.com


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