# Writing For Violin And Piano



## Majed Al Shamsi

Hello everyone. Hope you're doing well.

Was wondering if any of you have any experience composing pieces which include both the violin and the piano.
If so, could you share what you know, or at least the source from which you've learned (websites, videos, books)?

And one more thing; what alternative to MuseScore would you good people recommend?

Thanks in advance.


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## PetrB

I would recommend _purchasing_ the basic Finale notation package, which I believe ends up near the same cost as the higher grade MuseScore pay per-month if used for one year. Finale software has its own midi and comes with the Garritan audio samples (I.e. you are 'ready to go.')

Writing for any instrument(s) requires some direct familiarity with it, i.e. some careful study of its physical capacities, and it is best to start out aiming for something that sounds innately like music for that instrument, using best its idiosyncratic traits, or "manifesting its character." You do not need to play the single-line instruments to learn to write well for them.

One fine very full orchestration text is _The Study of Orchestration, Samuel Adler_. This is a very complete in one volume text, will certainly cost you, and should last a lifetime and be useful far as long, too. Whatever bits and pieces of this or that which come free online, if you have a genuine interest, invest in the good hardbound text you will own for a lifetime.

Other than that, look at scores of violin and piano pieces you like and admire, find as many as you can on Youtube and familiarize yourself with the gestures, idiomatic qualities of the writing and keep those in mind in your inner ear.

Many a composer has learned to write very well for winds, strings, and percussion, while _*writing well for piano really seems to take a first-hand experience with playing the instrument*_. As an offer of 'proof' I can not think of one well known piano concerto or highly regarded piano sonata, etc. which was not composed by a composer who was also a highly adequate pianist. (the Schoenberg piano concerto is a semi-exception, i.e. a well-regarded piece yet written rather awkwardly for the instrument,)

Ultimately, composers often check what they are writing, while in process, with a technically competent player.

Last advice. _Initially, keep it short and simple -- leave ambitions for high virtuosic display out of it until you know how to write well for the instruments in a simpler and more direct manner._


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## Majed Al Shamsi

Can't thank you enough, PetrB!
Very informative and helpful as usual.


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## Pysmythe

Hello, new member here. This past January, I bought the Notion 4 software for $99, and have been extremely impressed with how intuitive it is compared to Musescore, with which I do have experience, as well as with the bundled sounds it comes with. It has really facilitated the composing process for me quite unbelievably. You should check out some youtube videos about it, along with their website (no, I don't work for them btw, I'm just a very, very satisfied customer). You can't print out quite as lovely a score with it as you can with, say, Finale, but it is very much suited for the composer who wants to get some work done, rather than spending so much time doing set up, clicking on menus, hunting things down, figuring out how, exactly, to do something, etc. And those bundled sounds it comes with sound considerably better than anything else you're going to get, short of laying out a few hundred dollars. WAY better than Garritan, for example, right out of the box. It also has a good mixer, and lots of articulations, etc. It could be just what you've been looking for. I know it certainly was for me; I've been composing every single day since I got it for the first time in a couple of years. Of course, make your own decision, but do at least check it out. I don't think you'd be disappointed, as long as your computer is a relatively new one, say, no older than 2 or 3 years.


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## Pysmythe

Hello again... I noticed last night right after I submitted my post to you that what I had to say might be taken as going out of its way to deliberately contradict the advice PetrB offered you, an approach that would be likely to come off as offensive, and especially from a new member. But I didn't intend any such thing. The truth is, when I submitted my post, I hadn't even read his yet. As soon as I read yours and saw the words "what alternative to MuseScore would you good people recommend," I jumped to my response purely out of enthusiasm for the Notion 4 product. Afterwards, I read what he had to say, made the connection... and cringed. It figures, one of my first posts, and I come off looking like some kind of a twit, lol. So, anyway, for what it's worth, I just wanted you to know I'm not the sort of person who does something like that, and from now on I'll try to be a little bit more careful when I have something to add. Good luck to you.


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## PetrB

Pysmythe said:


> Hello again... I noticed last night right after I submitted my post to you that what I had to say might be taken as going out of its way to deliberately contradict the advice PetrB offered you, an approach that would be likely to come off as offensive, and especially from a new member. But I didn't intend any such thing. The truth is, when I submitted my post, I hadn't even read his yet. As soon as I read yours and saw the words "what alternative to MuseScore would you good people recommend," I jumped to my response purely out of enthusiasm for the Notion 4 product. Afterwards, I read what he had to say, made the connection... and cringed. It figures, one of my first posts, and I come off looking like some kind of a twit, lol. So, anyway, for what it's worth, I just wanted you to know I'm not the sort of person who does something like that, and from now on I'll try to be a little bit more careful when I have something to add. Good luck to you.


Thank you but, nonsense. I'm in no way up on everything, and what you mention might be a good and affordable alternative to those who are not yet committed to another software / hardware configuration. Me, I'd never heard of it, and am curious to see what sort of sample library comes with it.

The one thing I've noticed about virtually all but the most expensive notation software is that the moment you have anything much past a triplet, the rhythmic 'oddities' of quintuplets, other tuplets, etc. can become labor intensive, first isolating them or telling the software to 'unguess' what you intend and then take a few steps more to get it right.

I'm told that Sibelius has the best capacity to set your own parameters of what you want the software to do so you do not run in to those situations as often.

Oh, and the 'polyphony' of writing what ends up looking like a normal piano score is pretty much a nightmare in each and all of them.... all beaming and rests done first, then a sweep through to hide many of them.... aaaargh, handwriting is much faster in the case of denser piano music.


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## Pysmythe

I sat down for an hour and carefully wrote out a post of probably 300 or 400 words addressing each of the concerns you brought up in detail, and when I finished, I wasn't allowed to post it, even after reloading the page... 

Well, to give you the short version, then, I'll just say that one of the things that drew me to Notion 4 was that I kept reading that those bundled sounds alone were worth the $99 price tag, and I would have to agree with that. Of course, we obviously aren't talking Vienna level stuff here, but for quick, decent-sounding mock-ups, I don't think you can easily beat it. To my ears, they sure sound better than all those hungry cats meandering through poor old Garritan. And, so far as I've been able to tell, there really isn't very much that Finale and Sibelius can do that Notion can't do a lot more easily, with far less headaches. It isn't lacking anything simply because the learning curve is less steep. They've just made the whole process much more efficient. The samples are from the LSO, single-miked, but you'd probably be quite surprised with what you can get out of them.


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## mtmailey

PIZZICATO 3.6.2 is great to me!They have templates for chamber music such as :string quartet,string quintet & string sextet.Also the software is great for sheet music.I printed out a page of my overture it looked great!!!Also the downloads costs me $205.


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## helpmeplslol

PetrB said:


> I would recommend _purchasing_ the basic Finale notation package, which I believe ends up near the same cost as the higher grade MuseScore pay per-month if used for one year. Finale software has its own midi and comes with the Garritan audio samples (I.e. you are 'ready to go.')
> 
> Writing for any instrument(s) requires some direct familiarity with it, i.e. some careful study of its physical capacities, and it is best to start out aiming for something that sounds innately like music for that instrument, using best its idiosyncratic traits, or "manifesting its character." You do not need to play the single-line instruments to learn to write well for them.
> 
> One fine very full orchestration text is _The Study of Orchestration, Samuel Adler_. This is a very complete in one volume text, will certainly cost you, and should last a lifetime and be useful far as long, too. Whatever bits and pieces of this or that which come free online, if you have a genuine interest, invest in the good hardbound text you will own for a lifetime.
> 
> Other than that, look at scores of violin and piano pieces you like and admire, find as many as you can on Youtube and familiarize yourself with the gestures, idiomatic qualities of the writing and keep those in mind in your inner ear.
> 
> Many a composer has learned to write very well for winds, strings, and percussion, while _*writing well for piano really seems to take a first-hand experience with playing the instrument*_. As an offer of 'proof' I can not think of one well known piano concerto or highly regarded piano sonata, etc. which was not composed by a composer who was also a highly adequate pianist. (the Schoenberg piano concerto is a semi-exception, i.e. a well-regarded piece yet written rather awkwardly for the instrument,)
> 
> Ultimately, composers often check what they are writing, while in process, with a technically competent player.
> 
> Last advice. _Initially, keep it short and simple -- leave ambitions for high virtuosic display out of it until you know how to write well for the instruments in a simpler and more direct manner._


Hey PetrB, what's your source for Schoenberg being a less than highly adequate pianist? The only discussion of his playing skills I've come across is in this interview with Mitsuko Uchida @51sec. I'm wondering if you can recall where you heard/read it, if not from the same interview, because I'm interested in learning about Schoenberg's piano skills.


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## PetrB

helpmeplslol said:


> Hey PetrB, what's your source for Schoenberg being a less than highly adequate pianist? The only discussion of his playing skills I've come across is in this interview with Mitsuko Uchida @51sec. I'm wondering if you can recall where you heard/read it, if not from the same interview, because I'm interested in learning about Schoenberg's piano skills.


The Uchida is my one 'documented' reference. If you look at the few piano pieces, they don't require much pianism, and are also a bit 'keyboard awkward.'

Compare those to, say, the piano part for Berg's _four pieces for clarinet and piano,_ which is far more 'piano idiomatic.' (While I haven't looked at the piano part for his Kammerkonzert for thirteen instruments, from recall of what I've heard, that too, has a more 'user friendly' piano part.)


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## Majed Al Shamsi

Thank you all. :tiphat:
I will definitely consider all options before I purchase anything, which should be soon.


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