# Im convinced video game composer has done a better job than the old masters...



## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

In creating strong thematic evocative themes and melodies. Please proove me wrong. And don't say that I hate classical and bash it because I dont but why are some of the themes/melodies from the old masters so damn dorky or silly?

This is one of my faves from Noriyuki Iwadare from the game Grandia. I just havn't come across anything from the classical era that reaches this high in creating something so beautful.

Some that come close though are Smetanas Ma Vlast 2, Dvoraks Serenade In E Major and Leos Janacek Idyll for Strings Adagio.


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## arnerich (Aug 19, 2016)

Just my honest opinion. It's great video game music, but I don't hear anything more than that though.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Kajmanen said:


> Please proove me wrong.


I'm curious to know what you think "proof" would be. Do we have to keep naming pieces of music that we think have stronger themes and melodies, until eventually either we give up or you find one that you prefer to your posted track?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Kajmanen keep in mind that video game composers are trying to do something different than classical composers. Not that they aren't both good, and bad, just their purposes are different. 

Just like an artist (visual arts) makes a drawing for a different reason than an illustrator would.

My point is that comparisons are then kind of dicy. Best we can say is we like this or that better than that or this. 

Still the comparisons are important. Its a way to listen critically and try and hear something specific. 

My opinion: what the game music has that the art music doesn't is a very specific kind of impact, a very specific kind of feeling is evoked. When you want that impact, there it is go get it. Nothing better. When I want the theme from Game of Thrones, that is what I want, and nothing else does it better. OTOH that is all it does, all it can do. 

Art music, the best of it, can be interpreted in a number of different ways. It doesn't just say one thing. You can dig into it and come away with emotional and sonic insights and find cool sonic and emotional references, that are different each time.

Another difference would be IN MY OPINION: the way the theme is treated. In the best of classical music the composer plays with you a little, or a lot, in hinting at the theme, showing you the theme, departing from it, preparing you for the theme again, making you yearn for and ache for the theme, so that when the unadorned theme is finally presented to you, you fell this gigantic satisfaction, that makes it worth while. Game music does a little of that but mostly the theme is simply dramatically presented, and you are done. Its very "cut to the chase scene" kind of music.

In that way classical is more like a meal, with appetizer and main course. Game music is more like desert: here's your chocolate pudding.

My opinions. 

Keep listening.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I listened again and came up with an idea. 

Listen to some overtures to great operas. Seriously. Give it a try.

The game music example you presented as that feeling of "here is a sample of all the themes we have in the game" similar to an overture.

Just a thought.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)




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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

This is just silly now. That music you posted sounds like hundreds of examples of film music from the last 60 years - music from TV films, even classic TV series'.

It's straight-up, bog-standard theme material in regular orchestrations. Stop wasting everyone's time.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

It's intended as game music. Why do you compare it to classical music? How much classical music have you heard? Can you give examples of dorky or silly themes in classical music?

Try to expand your horizons; don't look for things in classical music that you like in game music. Listen a lot to classical music and judge it on its own merits..

But fine, I'll make it convenient for you and post something that I think you might like based on the piece you posted:

Kallinikov - Symphony No. 1


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## Klassik (Mar 14, 2017)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


>


Now there's a video game! _Leisure Suit Larry III _is my favorite. The script is right out of STI! :lol:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Kajmanen said:


> Haha, its not "intended" for anyone.


and that shows.


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## nature (Jun 25, 2017)

I like it, but its not really comparable to most classical music. Apples to oranges. I think you just may like soundtrack music more than classical music, they both have their place. That Grandia track is definitely video game OST material - short, straightforward, clear melodies are always front and center, easily digestible structure because it is probably background music. etc.

Reminds me of sort of like a Wagner overture but far less complex. Listen to the Tannhauser overture.

Speaking of game OSTs, I absolutely love Bloodborne's. Its like some grandiose neo-romantic orchestral music complete with apocalyptic choral section. Fits the atmosphere of the game perfectly.











These are closer to actual "classical" than that Grandia track you shown I think, but one can still tell that they are streamlined orchestra pieces for a video game OST.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Kajmanen said:


> I just havn't come across anything from the classical era that reaches this high in creating something so beautful.
> 
> Some that come close though are Smetanas Ma Vlast 2, Dvoraks Serenade In E Major and Leos Janacek Idyll for Strings Adagio.


Not to quibble, but Smetana, Dvorak, and Janacek are not from the classical era. Smetana and Dvorak are from the romantic era, and Janacek is more post-romantic. (Well, I guess that is quibbling after all.)


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha A++


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Well it is much better than the last one you posted, but the last one was truly awful imo...

But I'm starting to wonder if these posts might not be a joke to stir up some Classical fans? I mean, do you really feel that is superior to a Brahms or Mahler Symphony, or whatever? If so, then fine, I guess... But have you even listened to most of the masterpieces of Classical music in any kind of attentive and thorough sense, and then drawn your conclusions?


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Different strokes for different folks. For you, the music of that video game is the ne plus ultra. To someone else, it could be rubbish. We all just keep listening and exploring, hanging on to what we like, and spurning what we don't like, and occasionally replacing old favorites with new favorites.


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## nature (Jun 25, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Well it is much better than the last one you posted, but the last one was truly awful imo...
> 
> But I'm starting to wonder if these posts might not be a joke to stir up some Classical fans? I mean, do you really feel that is superior to a Brahms or Mahler Symphony, or whatever? If so, then fine, I guess... But have you even listened to most of the masterpieces of Classical music in any kind of attentive and thorough sense, and then drawn your conclusions?


Wouldn't be surprised if this guy was a troll honestly


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

I won't assume you're a troll because I struggled with the same puzzle for many years; I couldn't understand why it was that I found tracks like the one below so moving,





but felt indifferent to similar music supposedly created by even more renowned musicians.





 (btw I strongly recommend Strauss's tone poems, especially the Alpine Symphony, based on the tracks you've posted so far)

Luckily for you, countless people have found themselves in the same predicament before, and the general consensus is that you can only leap this hurdle by continuing to listen to a wide variety of pieces. I can remember experiencing profound emotional reactions to things that I find derivative now (that Medal of Honor track for example, and even some classical music), and can remember my numb, flatline reactions to almost all of the music (not just classical) that I now love.

Large elapses of time do really weird things to your perception of music. That said, it's important to give the passage of time some opinions to mutate, which is why you should keep listening, even to things you don't like. If you continue to give classical music a chance over the next few years and eventually flip flop on this, suddenly finding it profoundly beautiful and much of (definitely not all) your favorite music now simplistic by comparison, you'd be the billionth person to do so. This site is actually more teeming with defenders of pop/rock/film/videogame music than you would probably believe, and the vast majority of them would still make this same prediction, I think.

Also, who exactly are these famous masters that you find corny, and which of their pieces did you listen to, and how many times?

Think about how many similar videogame OSTs there are that _don't_ move you the way this one does - there are lifelong fans of classical music on this forum who dislike entire eras, and are very selective with the eras that they do like. Give the names of those pieces that you dislike, and I guarantee some of the biggest CM nerds on here also dislike them. You're talking about centuries of music here. Your favorite VG music is a single drop in a lake of other VG music that does nothing for you - why should it surprise you to find things you dislike in the ocean of CM?


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


>


'Allo, Al Lowe!

I was thinking of Sierra games when I saw this thread. Their best soundtracks are great - certainly as appropriate and memorable as film scores. Mark Seibert (Sierra's composer and music director from the late '80s)'s music is tuneful, exciting, and often beautiful. It draws on classical music, rock and metal, and world and folk music.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

Fam that is not better than this


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## nature (Jun 25, 2017)

The hardest part about getting into classical music for me was finding music that really "clicked" with me. Video game soundtracks and film scores are definitely more accessible as I think classical music typically requires much more commitment and focus to appreciate. Even harder is it to figure out the best place to start, and find what type of music fits your tastes. And then, figuring out which recording to listen to, its overwhelming.

The first piece of classical music (or romantic music, I should say) that I really, really loved was Richard Wagner's "Tannhäuser overture". Its perfect in my opinion as a standalone piece of music, not just part of an opera. Second to that overture is the one for "Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg". You'd probably like them, OP.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

in course of time, the OP will be ashamed he ever started this thread.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> in course of time, the OP will be ashamed he ever started this thread.


If Shostakovich were alive today, I'm sure he'd be having a grand old time writing music for video games. And he'd be good at it too!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> If Shostakovich were alive today, I'm sure he'd be having a grand old time writing music for video games.


Gubaidullina is alive, not writing game tunes whatsoever, so he wouldn't either.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

as far as 'if' goes, we may end up in a fantasy land. Mozart most likely would hate music, had he lived these days, not join some of those innumerable pop groups.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> as far as 'if' goes, we may end up in a fantasy land. Mozart most likely would hate music, had he lived these days, not join some of those innumerable pop groups.


I'm not so sure about that. I could imagine Mozart writing film scores or even high-end video game scores.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> Gubaidullina is alive, not writing game tunes whatsoever, so he wouldn't either.


He wrote tons of film music. Why do you think that he would decline writing for video games?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> I could imagine Mozart writing film scores


he would not even think about composing, he would rather enlist with some terror thugs; music today is nothing like it was back in his time.



BabyGiraffe said:


> Why do you think that he would decline writing for video games?


to avoid disgrace obviously... no serious composer writes for vid games. Gubaidullina, Desatnikov, Smelkov and others will never compose smth of that sort.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> to avoid disgrace obviously... no serious composer writes for vid games. Gubaidullina, Desatnikov, Smelkov and others will never compose smth of that sort.


Disgrace... serious... :lol:
He wrote 25 soundtracks. But no serious composer writes for movies either.
No serious composer writes comic opera or ballet too. No serious composer writes dance or popular music arrangements. 
Serious composers write only academy approved serial, atonal, minimal and electro-acoustic noise music.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Disgrace... serious...


indeed, serious, for vid games force a composer to steal most hackneyed stuff from other composers, in order to dupe the gamer into thinking he actually gets the music, whereas he only hears what he had already heard million times before, only failed to remember.



BabyGiraffe said:


> He wrote 25 soundtracks.


doesn't mean he would write for vid games, so let's do without generalisation and making up things, okay?



BabyGiraffe said:


> No serious composer writes comic opera or ballet too.


Offenbach and Tchaikovsky did.



BabyGiraffe said:


> Serious composers write only academy approved serial, atonal, minimal and electro-acoustic noise music.


?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> he would not even think about composing, he would rather enlist with some terror thugs; music today is nothing like it was back in his time.


I see you have access to the dead man's thoughts...

Mozart was already basically writing for a similar genre: 'divertimenti' in his own time. So I can't see him passing up the chance of easy money to knock out a few game soundtracks - even under a pseudonym. He liked spending money, so it would have been too tempting.
Game soundtracks have been getting more intricate in the last 10-15 years. Plenty of musically-trained composers who have other work under their belts have done them.

Does the pose of 'arch conservative' not use up a lot of energy?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Mozart was already basically writing for a similar genre: 'divertimenti' in his own time. So I can't see him passing up the chance of easy money to knock out a few game soundtracks


there are much better ways to earn money today, a Mozart would not compose music but leave it to mediocrities.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

Quite a provocative statement by the OP. 
In my judgment, the piece in the original post is nice, but doesn't even compete with the work of most great film composers. Of whom, in turn, very few if any can compete with the "old masters."
Try this- pull up some of Leonard Bernstein's music, from West Side Story, Candide, or On the Waterfront. Bernstein isn't even considered a top tier classical composer, but if you compare his "themes and melodies" with your video game piece, I think you'll find that the latter doesn't even compare.
Then try a Dvorak dance, a Tchaikovsky ballet or a Verdi opera overture.


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

KenOC said:


> If Shostakovich were alive today, I'm sure he'd be having a grand old time writing music for video games. And he'd be good at it too!


Shostakovich wrote a lot of dreck too. I'm sure he could dash off some video game music, no problem, not all of it good.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Bear in mind that many rock fans dismiss classical music as outdated etc. They think their stuff is better.

Fine - what to say? If it's better for you it's better for you.

I also am impressed with a lot of film music - but when I buy a CD of the score - soon get fed up listening.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> Bear in mind that many rock fans dismiss classical music as outdated


as if rock is not... it is half century on since it was tossed in the media... moreover, rock draws on classical and is based on it, many rock frontmen are nothing but rejected tenors that failed to qualify for the opera; same about lots of pop stuff that employs classical methods of build up in a composition.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

take for example those gay poodles they call Depeche Mode, there wouldn't be any of theirs if not for Schubert lieder.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Let's have a guessing game. In the last half century (1968-2017) how much classical music has been sold versus "golden era" pop music?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> In the last half century (1968-2017) how much classical music has been sold versus "golden era" pop music?


first we need to figure out *actual* sales numbers, not trust those from media articles published for advertising, political and ideological purposes... we also must understand that classical is meant for *elites*, which anyone can join in listening to great music, but it would take some education and intellectual development of course, meanwhile pop is intrinsically meant for retards.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> rock draws on classical and is based on it,


Only to the extent that all the musics of today draw in some way on the musics of the past. I think you'll find that rock is based more on the blues, which was not based on classical.



Zhdanov said:


> take for example those gay poodles they call Depeche Mode, there wouldn't be any of theirs if not for Schubert lieder.


'Gay poodles'? If you have a point to make about DM's debt to Schubert, an example of the connection would more pertinent than needless invective.



Zhdanov said:


> we also must understand that classical is meant for *elites*, which anyone can join in listening to great music, but it would take some education and intellectual development of course, meanwhile pop is intrinsically meant for retards.


Er, no, I don't think you're right on either your first assertion (though that may have right historically) or your last. And as I pointed out elsewhere, I've been listening happily to classical since I was 6 - not much intellect or education at that age required.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> it is half century on since it was tossed in the media...


And now it doesn't even resemble what it started out as, at all. It has evolved exponentially, so many sub-genres too.



Zhdanov said:


> moreover, rock draws on classical and is based on it, many rock frontmen are nothing but rejected tenors that failed to qualify for the opera; same about lots of pop stuff that employs classical methods of build up in a composition.


no no no, you don't know anything about rock at all


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> rock is based more on the blues,


that is a myth; they say so, but in fact its only a lip service.



MacLeod said:


> I've been listening happily to classical since I was 6


yeah, just like this, listened to Wager? Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg? Tristan Und Isolde?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

David OByrne said:


> you don't know anything about rock at all


for your information, i started as a rock musician, when i was young; so i know the subject better than you all do.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> for your information, i started as a rock musician, when i was young; so i know the subject better than you all do.


How young? you have such a narrow view of what rock *is*


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

David OByrne said:


> How young?


was born in 1971


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

Hm, Zhdanov, your snobbish views are really funny. "Elite" composers like Mozart and Beethoven wrote dance tunes (pretty mediocre) and folk song arrangements.
Good composers don't care about "high and low art" - they are skilled enough to write in any genre and style, if they have to. It's not about what the other people are writing - it's all about what you can write - ballet and opera buffa were considered "low art" until talented composers started writing good music. Who knows what will write the next "great" composer - it can be hip-hop symphony, video game tone poem, afro-latin rhapsody etc...


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that is a myth; they say so, but in fact its only a lip service.


Ahhh, "they". You just can't trust 'em.



Zhdanov said:


> yeah, just like this, listened to Wager? Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg? Tristan Und Isolde?


"Just like this"? I'm not sure what you mean. Was I listening to Wagner when I was 6? No. Was I listening to Holst and Dvorak? Yes. Did I like the easy pieces of classical I heard elsewhere as I was growing up? Yes - Prokofiev, Strauss, Sibelius, Wagner, Beethoven, Mozart etc etc. Was I sat down studying sonata form as I listened to symphonies? No.

My point is an appreciation of classical does not _require _education and intellectual development.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

MacLeod said:


> Ahhh, "they". You just can't trust 'em.
> 
> "Just like this"? I'm not sure what you mean. Was I listening to Wagner when I was 6? No. Was I listening to Holst and Dvorak? Yes. Did I like the easy pieces of classical I heard elsewhere as I was growing up? Yes - Prokofiev, Strauss, Sibelius, Wagner, Beethoven, Mozart etc etc. Was I sat down studying sonata form as I listened to symphonies? No.
> 
> *My point is an appreciation of classical does not require education and intellectual development.*


I dont believe it Macleod - you stated a point of view I absolutely agree with.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> for your information, i started as a rock musician, when i was young; so i know the subject *better than you all do*.


That's some claim! How can you possibly know how many people here have or have not played in rock bands? And even then the assumption that you would have a greater grasp of the matter in any case!

I played drums in a rock band from age 16 for 7 years before moving completely onto jazz combos. Rock's beginnings in rock 'n' Roll most certainly stem from the blues, that is no myth. It was much later when the generic term "rock" was coined in the late 60s and 70s that people started to experiment: from the Beatles onwards. Before and during that I don't think you'll find many rock/pop/folk bands based on anything but the blues or folk music.
The later influences from classical seeped in from music students and other students who performed in rock n roll/rock bands. They brought that to "rock" they didn't go there and find it already intact.

I'm a bit baffled that you question the higher sales of pop music over classical, but then go on immediately to explain that classical is meant for an elite (small by definition). I'm not sure where the point is.

The supposed link between Depeche Mode's songs and the 'elite' warblings of Schubert's Lieder is laughably idiotic.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

BabyGiraffe said:


> Hm, Zhdanov, your snobbish views are really funny. "Elite" composers like Mozart and Beethoven wrote dance tunes (pretty mediocre) and folk song arrangements.
> Good composers don't care about "high and low art" - they are skilled enough to write in any genre and style, if they have to. It's not about what the other people are writing - it's all about what you can write - ballet and opera buffa were considered "low art" until talented composers started writing good music. Who knows what will write the next "great" composer - it can be hip-hop symphony, video game tone poem, afro-latin rhapsody etc...


I believe both Mozart and Beethoven wrote works for mechanical organ, which was certainly something of a gimmick: http://weldon.whipple.org/beethoven/?page_id=114 (Everyone has to eat.)


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Was I listening to Wagner when I was 6? No. Was I listening to Holst and Dvorak? Yes. Did I like the easy pieces of classical I heard elsewhere as I was growing up? Yes - Prokofiev, Strauss, Sibelius, Wagner, Beethoven, Mozart etc etc. Was I sat down studying sonata form as I listened to symphonies? No.


hope you do realise how rare your case is, even if the above said was true?



MacLeod said:


> My point is an appreciation of classical does not _require _education and intellectual development.


then you are wrong if so, and thats obvious because for the vast majority it would take education and intellectual development to begin appreciating classical.


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## Vox Gabrieli (Jan 9, 2017)

Shostakovich wrote some amazing film score music, and doubly unique. I personally think he would go for unique scores with even more freedom. Video Games are always a celebration of things we aren't able to do irl. It would make a good pair.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> The supposed link between Depeche Mode's songs and the 'elite' warblings of Schubert's Lieder is laughably idiotic.


you simply didn't listen to the both or one of them well enough.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> hope you do realise how *rare *your case is, even if the above said was *true*?


Well of course I am special...but neither of us can know just how special. Are you suggesting that what I've posted isn't 'true'?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Are you suggesting that what I've posted isn't 'true'?


true or not, your point is completely wrong, since based on one case.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> hope you do realise how rare your case is, even if the above said was true?
> 
> then you are wrong if so, and thats obvious because for the vast majority it would take education and intellectual development to begin appreciating classical.


that's a bit of a sweeping statement.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> that's a bit of a sweeping statement.


and of course this isn't -



MacLeod said:


> My point is an appreciation of classical does not _require _education and intellectual development.


- hypocrisy much?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Some of us find it confusing to wrestle with the simultaneous and contradictory goals of:

1 - dispelling the idea that classical music is only for elites with extensive education, training, and superior intelligence

2 - enjoying our elite status and buttressing the ramparts against the rabble.

My solution is to enjoy the music as a total fanboy, lay back in the transcendence, as the OP has apparently done, and use experience and increased knowledge and appreciation of history and tradition as a way to get access to more transcendent experiences.

I love this stuff so much that I really feel compelled to encourage anyone who looks this way to come a little closer. Requiring such a person to "pay dues" doesn't help. Of course we all have to pay our dues, do our time in front of the speakers, get our experiences stacked up, and we all have to act respectful when seeking information from those with more experience - _but these things are true because they are effective, not because they are imposed_.

I am blessed in that the device has not been invented that can measure how little I care about how I rate with the elite intellectuals and guardians of good taste. Transcendence comes from the music, not from compliance or alignment with elites.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Let's tone down the inflammatory comments using terms like retards, idiotic, and hypocrisy.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

JeffD said:


> My solution is to enjoy the music as a total fanboy,


that approach will not work in today's reality where degenerate art is pushed on everyone and you risk ending up in bad taste.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that approach will not work in today's reality where degenerate art is pushed on everyone and you risk ending up in bad taste.


Please notice I have deliberately steered away from expressing any value judgments. It would be incorrect to imply that I find no differences, that all music is equivalent. My silence on the matter is just that, silence. It is just not relevant and does not encourage folks.

The degenerate trends in art is an entirely different, albeit important, conversation.

Relevant to our discussion here, I am not afraid of bad taste, or more properly, of being accused of having bad taste. It affects my experience of art roughly 0.00% to know I am considered tasteless, or not with it, or not cool, or muggle, or just not paying attention. Or to be considered learned and discriminating. In my work I have to be right, I get paid to be right. In life, being right is often highly overrated.

If it wasn't for my evident bad taste in bars, I would have no social life whatsoever.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that approach will not work in today's reality where degenerate art is pushed on everyone and you risk ending up in bad taste.


I wonder also, is this view even accurate. Time has a way of sorting out the past, and what we have the most access to is the top ten or top one hundred of the past. Cannot every generation have said the exact same thing you are saying now. Was there not a lot of inferior art back in the day (any day, pick a day), that just died a decent (or indecent) death and is gone.

I dunno. Just speculating. Parents have always complained about their children's' music.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

JeffD said:


> I am not afraid of bad taste,


you are not, but i am, and this is my word against yours.



JeffD said:


> In life, being right is often highly overrated.


i would even go as far as to say being right is often dangerous, but we must brace ourselves.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> and this is my word against yours.


What is this "against" stuff. I don't think you and I are that far apart, and certainly not on every topic.

What ever our world views, we will have the same end - disillusionment and dust. The relevance of the future goes way down after our terminal event. And the world will not be what we want, either of us, ever. I promise.

Look if you like my tastes I will buy you a bourbon and soda and we will have a fun time talking. And if you don't like my tastes, I will buy you a bourbon and soda and we will have a real fun time talking.

If you don't like my bourbon, however, it could come to blows.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

JeffD said:


> Parents have always complained about their children's' music.


and they have been darn right! elders do know what's what! this is the proof!


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> you simply didn't listen to the both or one of them well enough.


Maybe you didn't. Your arrogance is pretty irritating.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Maybe you didn't. Your arrogance is pretty irritating.


Jeez! I though I was the only one finding this guy's arrogance irritating. :cheers:


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Everyone is irritating, once you get to know them. 

Best to not get emotionally involved, either with the person, or with the discussion. :lol:


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> and they have been darn right! elders do know what's what! this is the proof!


Nah! Hemingway pointed out that the elderly are not necessarily more wise, they are just more careful. If we all got along with our elders on every point we would never leave the house.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

JeffD said:


> Nah! Hemingway pointed out that the elderly are not necessarily more wise, they are just more careful. If we all got along with our elders on every point we would never leave the house.


. . . and medicine would still be based on the idea of balancing the four humors (elements). (On the other hand, it is interesting to note that some use of leeches has come back into modern medicine.)


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

JeffD said:


> Hemingway pointed out that the elderly are not necessarily more wise, they are just more careful.


but it isn't a matter of wisdom, rather that of experience; the elderly had seen the world back then and compare it with nowadays; they testify things have changed for worse.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Every older generation since at least Homer's (that we know of) has said the world is going downhill. By this time it ought to be so far downhill it's deep underground and ready to pop out the other end of the globe.

The only thing about modern times worth decrying is the economic corruption ,but art, music..these have had their champions and decriers in every era.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> but it isn't a matter of wisdom, rather that of experience; the elderly had seen the world back then and compare it with nowadays; they testify things have changed for worse.


Or complain because things aren't the same as their idealized memory of the past.

It is not cut and dried. Elders deserve our respect, absolutely, but nobody deserves our sycophantic following.

They say that progress, in science, and in the arts, philosophy, whatever, progress occurs one funeral at a time.


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## Myriadi (Mar 6, 2016)

I think the original post may be deliberately provocative, so maybe another point would be interesting to discuss, namely, how interesting it must be to compose good video game music, at least to some composers. Because obviously it shouldn't be so engaging and beautiful as to distract from the game itself (I'm thinking gameplay, not cutscenes). But it should also be, ideally, good enough so that later the player can whistle the melody. And in earlier games there must have been a limit on how long the music can be - you'd have to make maybe a minute or two of music which is at once engaging, suitable, memorable, and yet not too much of any of those things, so as not to distract the player. 

I'm thinking it'd be a bit like Tafelmusik, except you have to make it good enough to drive the sales of the game and its OST, and not, as it were, like providing a steady stream of divertimenti for palace dinners, each to be played once or twice and then forgotten. Perhaps somebody who plays videogames can elighten us on what is considered a good soundtrack for a game (but then it'd likely be off topic for a CM forum...) My point is, I can think of quite a few CM composers who would probably be intrigued by the challenge.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Myriadi said:


> , how interesting it must be to compose good video game music, at least to some composers. ... I can think of quite a few CM composers who would probably be intrigued by the challenge.


It is likely a whole lot more lucrative. I met a girl who is taking courses in composition for movies and video games. She has scores to study and homework coming out of her ears. Yes its fascinating, and a deep subject.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> first we need to figure out *actual* sales numbers, not trust those from media articles published for advertising, political and ideological purposes... we also must understand that classical is meant for *elites*, which anyone can join in listening to great music, but it would take some education and intellectual development of course, meanwhile pop is intrinsically meant for retards.


I have to admit Zhadanov, despite our occasional differences, I laughed pretty damn hard when I read this. Not sure if I'd quite put it the way you have here, but for sheer entertainment value, I'm glad you did.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

......................


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> but it isn't a matter of wisdom, rather that of experience; the elderly had seen the world back then and compare it with nowadays; they testify things have changed for worse.


Right again, as usual.

Been there done that.

Have cell phones, computers and 677 cable TV stations made the world a better place than 50 years ago?

If anything, people are more wrapped up within themselves and insensitive to others than ever before!!! :lol:


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

eugeneonagain said:


> Maybe you didn't. Your arrogance is pretty irritating.





jdec said:


> Jeez! I though I was the only one finding this guy's arrogance irritating. :cheers:


Perhaps, "thicker skin" would be called for. :lol:

Anybody who has been on TC as a regular poster for a few weeks/months/years, and is singling this guy out for "arrogance"?

That's what I calll "moxie".


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps, "thicker skin" would be called for. :lol:
> 
> Anybody who has been on TC as a regular poster for a few weeks/months/years, and is singling this guy out for "arrogance"?
> 
> That's what I calll "moxie".


I don't even know what "moxie" is. It sounds like a name for a small dog.

It's not that I don't have a thick skin, I do; I just have a deep aversion to claptrap delivered as 'the actual truth'.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> that approach will not work in today's reality where degenerate art is pushed on everyone and you risk ending up in bad taste.


"Degenerate art"? I prefer it in the original German...









Also, poor old Depeche Mode!


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## apricissimus (May 15, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> take for example those gay poodles they call Depeche Mode, there wouldn't be any of theirs if not for Schubert lieder.


Gay poodles . . . ?


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps, "thicker skin" would be called for. :lol:


I have skin as thick as a rinho's. Nonetheless....

_"Different breeds of rhinos have different types of skin, but one thing remains generally the same: It's nice and thick. While the thick, folded skin can look like armor on some breeds, it's relatively sensitive on any rhino. Because of that sensitivity, rhinos have to be mindful of their skin and take care of it, or else it can become vulnerable, irritated and damaged."_

:lol:


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

apricissimus said:


> Gay poodles . . . ?


I see them here in Portland Oregon all the time. You just have to know where to look.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Perhaps, "thicker skin" would be called for. :lol:
> 
> Anybody who has been on TC as a regular poster for a few weeks/months/years, and is singling this guy out for "arrogance"?
> 
> That's what I calll "moxie".


After initially being a little put off by Zhadanov, I've grown to find him outrageously entertaining!


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

AfterHours said:


> After initially being a little put off by Zhadanov, I've grown to find him outrageously entertaining!


Yes. Once you get used to his dry style, he does get his points across. There's a lot of truth there!!!

He is brutally frank; uncomfortably so, to some.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

AfterHours said:


> I see them here in Portland Oregon all the time. You just have to know where to look.


I was just in Portland, Oregon!!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> Yes. Once you get used to his dry style, he does get his points across. There's a lot of truth there!!!
> 
> He is brutally frank; uncomfortably so, to some.


Yes, I find it to be a hilarious, satirical exaggeration of elitism. I myself can crossover into this from time to time (particularly with Classical vs Pop type conversations), but even at my worst can usually maintain some semblance of tact or an ability to go back to something I said and clarify it more amicably. But Zhdanov, man, is on another level. He is like an unrelenting Terminator 1000 version of me at my worst (and others who've been condescending towards me, it often goes both ways!) ... and, to me, it is just uproariously funny. The profile pic, while there is nothing at all wrong with it on its own, is the icing on the cake when you combine it with his TC persona.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

AfterHours said:


> Yes, I find it to be a hilarious, satirical exaggeration of elitism. I myself can crossover into this from time to time (particularly with Classical vs Pop type conversations), but even at my worst can usually maintain some semblance of tact or an ability to go back to something I said and clarify it more amicably. But Zhdanov, man, is on another level. He is like an unrelenting Terminator 1000 version of me at my worst (and others who've been condescending towards me, it often goes both ways!) ... and, to me, it is just uproariously funny. The profile pic, while there is nothing at all wrong with it on its own, is the icing on the cake when you combine it with his TC persona.


What's funny is how many other posters get upset by his posts and how he never backs down and keeps challenging them.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

hpowders said:


> What's funny is how many other posters get upset by his posts and how he never backs down and keeps challenging them.


Zhdanov: Even his name is a provocation! Historically, he married a daughter of Stalin. But he had a weakness...


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I was just in Portland, Oregon!!


Right on, good weather right now, good timing!


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> What's funny is how many other posters get upset by his posts and how he never backs down and keeps challenging them.


I'm telling you, he is Terminator 1000 from T2: Judgement Day. He is unstoppable.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> What's funny is how many other posters get upset by his posts and how he never backs down and keeps challenging them.


Really? Funny, most of what I have seen from him on this post is backing down and challenging people.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> because for the vast majority it would take education and intellectual development to begin appreciating classical.


I think you missed my emphasis on 'require' (post #46). It's perfectly possible for people of all levels of education and experience to enjoy classical music; neverthless, as with any endeavour, further study can improve and enhance comprehension.



Zhdanov said:


> true or not, your point is completely wrong, since based on one case.


If it's wrong, it's not because it's based on one case. Since neither of us is in a position to put forward a survey of cases (and I suspect that even if I were to find some research to support my point, you'd not accept it*) we're left asserting the unverifiable. What I would add is that since I've been here, a number of people reporting their early encounters with classical have indicated that it started when they were children - in other words, before 'education' or 'experience' would have had time to influence matters much.

*https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/apr/02/classical-music-children


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> I was just in Portland, Oregon!!


Maybe next time we'll squeeze that Trout Mask Replica listening session in :lol:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

hpowders said:


> What's funny is how many other posters get upset by his posts and how he never backs down and keeps challenging them.


Wouldn't it be good though if it was a challenge of substance and not deluded opinion masquerading as fact? I feel most sorry for the ones who are swayed by empty iconoclasts.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

AfterHours said:


> Maybe next time we'll squeeze that Trout Mask Replica listening session in :lol:


The people were very friendly there. Whenever I got on an elevator, they always made eye contact and said "good morning" or "hey".

Perhaps they knew I was "hpowders" and attempted to accord me respect! :lol::lol:


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that is a myth; they say so, but in fact its only a lip service.
> 
> yeah, just like this, listened to Wager? Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg? Tristan Und Isolde?


We should be careful with some generalizations, rock in roll is based on Blues, no question. Proof: Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley. But a lot of 60's pop was influenced by Classical, but I wouldn't say drawn from it.

Your statement on Classical meant for the elite is a generalization, but generally true. It is meant for the cutting edge in many instances by broadening musical boundaries, but some is only to make money, sometimes both. Pop is meant for "retards", assuming you mean the mentally absent, while a generalization, it generally true for chart toppers. I would say a high percentage of 60's pop was more ambitious, than strictly commercial, but that percentage has dropped since.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> After initially being a little put off by Zhadanov, I've grown to find him outrageously entertaining!


Those Stalinists can be riotously funny


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> Those Stalinists can be riotously funny


It helps to hone one's stand-up comedy routine in front of the government committee at the gulag.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

I have a kind of naïve faith that the good stuff rises in time. If all of us defenders of classical music are correct, then we have nothing to fear from someone's passion for game music. 

And if we really do have something to fear, we are lost, defending nothing, screaming into a bucket.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't agree with Zhdanov's worldview in general, but one of my cranky old person opinions is that video games are not, and never will be, art of any kind.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

isorhythm said:


> I don't agree with Zhdanov's worldview in general, but one of my cranky old person opinions is that video games are not, and never will be, art of any kind.


Fine. Lets say that is true. Lets say your opinion is 100% correct, and perceptive.

Is being mean to someone who hasn't figured that out going to change anything? Is art so fragile that it need defending from us? If what you say is true, our diatribes are of no consequence.

Better to spend time encouraging newbies towards the fine musical experiences available. IMO.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

Games are entertainment, sometimes very good entertainment, sometimes the graphics or music might even be "artful", but as a whole I wouldn't consider any game I've played to be art. Still, there's a lot of creativity involved in creating games. And I'm guessing some of the grumpy old geezers around here have absolutely no idea what it involves to make a game.
There's no reason to put down and attack games, or game music. Nothing wrong with it for its purpose: entertainment. What's wrong is the comparison to classical music. So criticize that instead of games itself.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Anyone putting down the fine art of video game production as an art form, wounds me deeply.

I am also seriously crushed beyond repair by anyone criticizing the music of Bruckner, Dvorak, Liszt and never-ending Beethoven symphony cycles.


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## Razumovskymas (Sep 20, 2016)

Kajmanen said:


> In creating strong thematic evocative themes and melodies. Please proove me wrong. And don't say that I hate classical and bash it because I dont but why are some of the themes/melodies from the old masters so damn dorky or silly?
> 
> This is one of my faves from Noriyuki Iwadare from the game Grandia. I just havn't come across anything from the classical era that reaches this high in creating something so beautful.
> 
> Some that come close though are Smetanas Ma Vlast 2, Dvoraks Serenade In E Major and Leos Janacek Idyll for Strings Adagio.


Nice music Kajmanen and nicely orchestrated! I enjoyed listening to it and maybe would enjoy it for a second or a third time but then what? there's not much interesting development going on. It just evoques a nice feeling of glory and victory and classical music would be so boring if that was the only goal of a composer.

I think John Barry might be your man, certainly my favorite film-score composer.

Debussy did something funny too that sounds a bit like a theme score from a tv series (makes me think of Game of Thrones theme). It's a bit cheesy too but musically it's 100 times more interesting then Game of Thrones theme. Also Liszt's orchestrated Mazeppa has some of the ingredients but again much more interesting, that just takes your video game piece of music, eats it as a whole and spits it right back out (apologies for my strong language but that's just one of the feelings that Mazeppa can evoke )

Another example of some movie-like music is Debussy's fantasie pour piano et orchestra. Always makes me think of a James Bond-movie with a setting on some tropical island.

And about the "dorky and silly-thing". If that really is an issue for you you should only listen to stuff that is en vogue at the moment because if you can't replace yourself into a mindset of let's say things that were "cool" 200 years ago, things will get difficult indeed.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

hpowders said:


> Anyone putting down the fine art of video game production as an art form, wounds me deeply.


Perhaps, "thicker skin" would be called for.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> and of course this isn't -
> 
> - hypocrisy much?


It's a bit difficult to see how stomanek can be accused of hypocrisy on the basis of a statement I made, or vice versa. I don't think what I said was a sweeping statement, but if it is, it's only the opposite of yours. Hypocrisy much?


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

hpowders said:


> The people were very friendly there. Whenever I got on an elevator, they always made eye contact and said "good morning" or "hey".
> 
> Perhaps they knew I was "hpowders" and attempted to accord me respect! :lol::lol:


They probably did! I hope you don't mind but I've been passing that picture that you PM'd me around town, you remember the one? Flag pole ... water fountain ... boxers ... peanut butter ... ... Um, anyway, I'll spare the details because I don't want to embarrass you in front of the members of TC, but if the solid citizens of Portland seemed extra giddy for your arrival at least now you know why! :lol:


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## nature (Jun 25, 2017)

DeepR said:


> Games are entertainment, sometimes very good entertainment, sometimes the graphics or music might even be "artful", but as a whole I wouldn't consider any game I've played to be art. Still, there's a lot of creativity involved in creating games. And I'm guessing some of the grumpy old geezers around here have absolutely no idea what it involves to make a game.
> There's no reason to put down and attack games, or game music. Nothing wrong with it for its purpose: entertainment. What's wrong is the comparison to classical music. So criticize that instead of games itself.


In my opinion, any medium that involves craftmanship of any kind can become "art" through mastery of the craft. The same way that film can be fine art of sorts, or just for simple entertainment, so can video games. Likewise, you usually wouldn't consider most comic books to be fine art, but how about the comic art of Jean Giraud (AKA Moebius)?

So, I think that while the piece OP posted is obviously not at level of mastery you'd find in classical orchestral music, it is still relatively good for the medium. The soundtrack is only one facet of the overall piece of art in a video game, along with game mechanics, art design, 3D modelling, animation, story and plot, etc. When you have a game that excels at all elements, then you have a piece of art in my opinion. Off the top of my head, Shadow of the Colossus (PS2) and more recently Bloodborne (PS4) fit this category.

Try this short piece from the Shadow of the Colossus OST: 



It is clearly reminiscent of heroic romantic orchestral music, but it doesn't try to perfectly emulate it due to its purpose. Very short and streamlined, with a few more modern flourishes like more conventional percussion.

I like to think of music in video games as sort of similar to illustrations in books. Art that accompanies and magnifies greater work of art. Illustrations can be incredibly well made (just look at the illustrations of Tolkien illustrator Alan Lee for a modern example), but due to their intended medium, they often are not of the same scale, depth or complexity of a huge old master canvas painting, for example.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

If you don't think the fine tuning of game mechanics alone constitutes art then you're taking A LOT of things for granted. Consider, for example, that designers of multiplayer games often agonize over whether the placement and shape of a single hill on an entire level of complex terrain gives the team on one side an advantage over the other. A thousand similar questions exclusive to single player games get answered and re-answered a thousand times to ensure that the player's experience is sufficiently challenging - a narrow strip in between effortless and frustrating.

It's always seemed condescending to me to imply that the end result of such a process (the process most responsible for the competitive highs and lows that entice the player in much the same way a narrative or piece of music does) is only art by its proximity to the music and graphic illustration.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

The question isn't whether a game is intricately crafted, or even art. The question is the game music, is it better than the "old masters" of classical music. That is the question put before us.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

isorhythm said:


> I don't agree with Zhdanov's worldview in general, but one of my cranky old person opinions is that video games are not, and never will be, art of any kind.


Agreed, friend.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Another thing: that video game music is immediately pleasing. How many listens will it last though?

The 'old masters' as you call them often take some time to 'crack' due to the music's complexity. So you might listen to a Mozart concerto once and not find it very interesting and a bit boring and generic of annoying chirpy classical. But the point is, they require a little more work, and you can listen to them in different ways, focusing on different things each time, and eventually the music's beauty is revealed to you like a flower.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> The 'old masters' as you call them often take some time to 'crack' due to the music's complexity. So you might listen to a Mozart concerto once and not find it very interesting and a bit boring and generic of annoying chirpy classical. But the point is, they require a little more work, and you can listen to them in different ways, focusing on different things each time, and eventually the music's beauty is revealed to you like a flower.


I want to find that middleground of immediately pleasing and complex. Delius Florida Suite for example maybe.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Delius' "Florida Suite" is a lovely work and I'm very fond of it, but complex it is not. I'd respectfully suggest you need to be a lot clearer in your own mind about what you actually mean by "complexity".


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

JeffD said:


> The question isn't whether a game is intricately crafted, or even art. The question is the game music, is it better than the "old masters" of classical music. That is the question put before us.


Let the mods first remove the irrelevant, ignorant putdowns from these self-proclaimed "cranky old men" about artforms they don't understand - then they can delete the responses to them.


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Phooey. The putdowns in question are themselves responses to earlier tendentious posts. Any posters who can't take it shouldn't dish it out in the first place.


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## Clairvoyance Enough (Jul 25, 2014)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Phooey. The putdowns in question are themselves responses to earlier tendentious posts. Any posters who can't take it shouldn't dish it out in the first place.


It seems to me that isorhythm's disrespectful interjection came pretty well out of nowhere - that's the only thing I was referring to. More power to the people bickering about or even putting down videogame_ music_. At least they're on topic.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Delius' "Florida Suite" is a lovely work and I'm very fond of it, but complex it is not. I'd respectfully suggest you need to be a lot clearer in your own mind about what you actually mean by "complexity".


Perhaps "sophistication" rather than "complexity"?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Clairvoyance Enough said:


> It seems to me that isorhythm's disrespectful interjection came pretty well out of nowhere - that's the only thing I was referring to. More power to the people bickering about or even putting down videogame_ music_. At least they're on topic.


You're right, it was off topic and pointless. I apologize.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

I'm not really even sure why saying something isn't art is necessarily insulting or disrespectful. There are plenty of human endeavors that require skill, craft, imagination, and creativity and it still doesn't elevate the medium or the end result to art. I think DeepR hit the nail on the head; video games are games, and I don't consider them art anymore than I consider chess the game of chess to be art.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Tallisman said:


> Another thing: that video game music is immediately pleasing. How many listens will it last though?


That depends on the listener, surely?


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> I want to find that middleground of immediately pleasing and complex. Delius Florida Suite for example maybe.


Isn't it kind of like food? You start out loving stuff that is sweet and immediately pleasing. And it takes a some experiences to where you develop a taste for complicated foods. Its like yea peanut butter and jelly is really pleasing right away, but Thai yellow curry is a sublime taste experience that involves all the different flavors, different spices, and their different delay times, different textures and crunchiness and mushiness, all combining and playing off each other.

Its a subtlety thing. Like a chocolate milk is great. Chug it down, go home. But a really good Sumatra coffee, with that lushness, its a more subtle taste. Sip it and enjoy it slowly. Add a half a shot of Knob Creek bourbon, and wow, its great.

All examples for music are misleading to some extent, but I am trying to give an idea of what I mean.

Literature too - like black and white good guy bad guy, boy meets girl type stuff is great when you start out, but at some point it is more rewarding to read stories of characters with more moral ambiguity, struggling and perhaps not succeeding, or stories where justice is done, but not by the just. It takes some time to appreciate that stuff.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

JeffD said:


> Isn't it kind of like food? You start out loving stuff that is sweet and immediately pleasing. And it takes a some experiences to where you develop a taste for complicated foods.


On the other hand, much of the world intentionally includes insects in its category of edible things, but I don't know how hungry I would have to be to even consider going down that path. And there are people who have strange eating disorders, like a craving for dirt (Geophagy) which provides no meaningful nutrients.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> I want to find that middleground of immediately pleasing and complex. Delius Florida Suite for example maybe.


But I still think you'd find things more rewarding that take a little more effort. I loved Bruch's violin concerto the first time I heard it. Complex, pleasing, strong, dramatic. And after about 10 listens it had revealed all it had to offer.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Well I for one don't share the rather elitist view that computer games and game music isn't or can't be art. It may not always (or ever) be _great_ art, but it's a product of someone's creativity.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> But I still think you'd find things more rewarding that take a little more effort..


I agree. 100% At least in my experience everything of value has taken effort, to learn, to earn, to wait, to risk...

My disagreement is that I did not learn that from listening to lectures, I learned that by banging into things and figuring it out. I learned it from wanting some things so badly I was willing to get after it. I learned it by finding that stuff that comes easy quickly goes bad.

So I am not trying to lecture the OP on the procedure, as much as encourage him (her?) to be curious enough to go after it.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> It may not always (or ever) be _great_ art, but it's a product of someone's creativity.


I quite agree. I would add, however, that this appreciation is lost on many of the fans, who love it because (much of) it is loud and exciting and easy to follow. Like so many other things in the world, the skill required to appreciate something is no where near the skill required to create it.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Resurrexit said:


> I'm not really even sure why saying something isn't art is necessarily insulting or disrespectful. There are plenty of human endeavors that require skill, craft, imagination, and creativity and it still doesn't elevate the medium or the end result to art.


You're going to get into a tangle with that. First of all you'll need to give some definition of "art" along with criteria for how things do and don't belong under that definition, in order to be able to make these judgements.

I forsee a horrible Socratic confusion.


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Resurrexit said:


> There are plenty of human endeavors that require skill, craft, imagination, and creativity and it still doesn't elevate the medium or the end result to art.





eugeneonagain said:


> You're going to get into a tangle with that..


Not the least of which problems will be that word "elevate". I entirely agree that there are many creative, incredibly deep, and highly complex endeavors that are not art - engineering, surgery, chess as mentioned, that are not art. But I don't know if I could defend the idea that whatever art is somehow _elevates_ it above these other endeavors.

Within art there is certainly a continuum, with game music, pop music and movie music closer to one side, and string quartets closer to the other side, (and I could even argue that game and movie music don't belong on the continuum because of their very different impetus), but even so, I am not comfortable making that continuum a vertical scale. I know what I like on that scale, I try and encourage everyone to like what I like, and I try to avoid belittling anyone who honestly seeks to learn, and a vertical continuum can put people off more than it encourages people to strive.

I could be wrong, but I need all the friends I can get and within reason try not to alienate anyone.

As long as nobody _tells_ me how to enjoy my Sumatran coffee and bourbon, Indian murgh saag, or my non-aromatic pipe tobacco and Franz Kafka I will not_ tell _them how to enjoy their peanut butter and jelly, m&ms, Swisher Sweets, and Danielle Steele.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nature said:


> I
> I like to think of music in video games as sort of similar to illustrations in books. Art that accompanies and magnifies greater work of art. Illustrations can be incredibly well made (just look at the illustrations of Tolkien illustrator Alan Lee for a modern example), but due to their intended medium, they often are not of the same scale, depth or complexity of a huge old master canvas painting, for example.


onestly I think that the best illustrators could reach to the same level of the great painters. Alberto Breccia, Karel Thole, Richard M. Powers, 
Sometimes painters are also illustrators (like Daumier, or Maxfield Parrish, or William Blake for instance). And you could even find famous painters like Lionel Feininger who have made comics.

I've never played with Shadow of the colossus but I've often seen it mentioned as an example of "art game" (one of my favorites games was the old Another world, that could be another in the list).
I have a huge respect for those who made video games, it's an extremely complex and sophisticated work. The limit that videogames have, is that they have to sell, and to sell a lot, especially now that the cost to produce mainstream games is on the same level with the hollywood productions (that as we know, aren't the best movies have to offer for artistic quality).


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

back to the original question: I liked the music, but maybe the problem is what one is expecting. 
That piece is a catchy, epic and a bit nostalgic melody. Obviously not all classical music is about that, and as others have mentioned a lot of classical music use to work with short themes and transform them in a lot of different ways. But you could certainly find even great catchy epic melodies.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> You're going to get into a tangle with that. First of all you'll need to give some definition of "art" along with criteria for how things do and don't belong under that definition, in order to be able to make these judgements.
> 
> I forsee a horrible Socratic confusion.


You _are_ getting yourself into quite a tangle there.  You don't need to worry about me though, I'm good. Obviously not everything can be art, or the concept would cease to have any meaning. Saying games aren't art isn't even slightly controversial. Get back to me when society views the Olympics as a giant visual arts performance and maybe we can have a debate.



JeffD said:


> Not the least of which problems will be that word "elevate".


Elevate was probably not the best word there, and I agree that art can have many different functions and serve many different purposes in people's lives, so I pretty much agree with everything you wrote.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Resurrexit said:


> You _are_ getting yourself into quite a tangle there.  You don't need to worry about me though, I'm good. Obviously not everything can be art, or the concept would cease to have any meaning. Saying games aren't art isn't even slightly controversial. Get back to me when society views the Olympics as a giant visual arts performance and maybe we can have a debate.


I can get back to you immediately and inform you that many events in the Olympics are already considered artistic: rhythmic and standard gymnastics; synchronised swimming. To demand the whole of it must be defined as art or nothing at all is a very spurious demand.

I'm afraid you have failed to appreciate the gravity of the problem of defining the concept of art and then defining sufficient criteria to judge inclusion/exclusion. In this you are not alone, since many a fine mind has already struggled over it with no definite agreed conclusions in sight.

I assure you there will be no debate ending in a concrete definition of "art".


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

The term Art is hard to define, it can emcompass a lot of things. But fine art is historically to do with Art for Art's sake instead of a practical value. Video games have a certain practical value and many constraints that would make it hard to be an example of fine art, it is almost a commodity. Same with many movies. If the intent is to make money over complete artistic freedom, then it loses its value as fine art. There are no hard and fast rules though. We don't live in a world where artists can always produce exactly what they want.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I can get back to you immediately and inform you that many events in the Olympics are already considered artistic: rhythmic and standard gymnastics; synchronised swimming. To demand the whole of it must be defined as art or nothing at all is a very spurious demand.
> 
> I'm afraid you have failed to appreciate the gravity of the problem of defining the concept of art and then defining sufficient criteria to judge inclusion/exclusion. In this you are not alone, since many a fine mind has already struggled over it with no definite agreed conclusions in sight.
> 
> I assure you there will be no debate ending in a concrete definition of "art".


So these activities are considered "artistic" but not "art", much as birdsong is described as "musical" but not "music". Nothing spurious about it, and nothing especially complicated, unless one is trying to make it complicated than it has to be. I assure you there will be no debate ending in a concrete definition of most concepts due to their vague and indeterminate boundaries.

But since you're such a noble egalitarian and believer that anything involving someone's "creativity" is art (but uh oh, what qualifies as _creative!!!???_ ), I know of this great work of art that you just need to check out:


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

This has devolved into "are video games art" and is about to get into "what is art." Two of the most heated debates on the intra-webs, good job!



Resurrexit said:


> I'm not really even sure why saying something isn't art is necessarily insulting or disrespectful. There are plenty of human endeavors that require skill, craft, imagination, and creativity and it still doesn't elevate the medium or the end result to art. I think DeepR hit the nail on the head; video games are games, and I don't consider them art anymore than I consider chess the game of chess to be art.


I think that the work of graphic designers, effects artists and of course audio/music folks who work on video games can rightly be called art....but I agree, video games aren't art. I like your example of chess; let me use auto racing, a sport I've gotten back into recently. The cars they use are often very eye-catching, and have very sleek body designs and beautiful paint jobs. I think it's valid to consider that art. But is auto racing itself art? Nonsense. It's a sport, a game that USES art to attract people to it. 
All that to say, a song from a video game is also art, but the game it came from is not. Like a sport, it USES art to be attractive and appealing.
And what is art? Heck if I know.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2017)

Phil loves classical said:


> The term Art is hard to define, it can emcompass a lot of things. But fine art is historically to do with Art for Art's sake instead of a practical value.


Not quite. Since much art was commissioned, it had to sell - to the patron at least. It may not be the same as mass selling of video games to a global audience, but artists throughout history have agonised over the compromise needed to make something sufficiently marketable to live on the proceeds without compromising 'artistic integrity'.

Just look at Haydn's 104 symphonies. Mass production for a handful of patrons. It may have resulted in some great music, but all in the name of commercial endeavour; was it art?


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Gordontrek said:


> This has devolved into "are video games art" and is about to get into "what is art." Two of the most heated debates on the intra-webs, good job!
> 
> I think that the work of graphic designers, effects artists and of course audio/music folks who work on video games can rightly be called art....but I agree, video games aren't art. I like your example of chess; let me use auto racing, a sport I've gotten back into recently. The cars they use are often very eye-catching, and have very sleek body designs and beautiful paint jobs. I think it's valid to consider that art. But is auto racing itself art? Nonsense. It's a sport, a game that USES art to attract people to it.
> All that to say, a song from a video game is also art, but the game it came from is not. Like a sport, it USES art to be attractive and appealing.
> And what is art? Heck if I know.


it's not necessarily a good comparison. Why we could accept that a movie can have artistic value and not a videogame? I'm not talking of any game in particular, but Is there something in the act of playing that makes impossible an artistic experience?


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

If you're going to bash video game music, first define what it is: Music + made for video games

How is that somehow inferior? music intended to be a companion to an immersive world? That will clearly stay in the minds of the players for a long time?


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Resurrexit said:


> So these activities are considered "artistic" but not "art", much as birdsong is described as "musical" but not "music". Nothing spurious about it, and nothing especially complicated, unless one is trying to make it complicated than it has to be. I assure you there will be no debate ending in a concrete definition of most concepts due to their vague and indeterminate boundaries.
> 
> But since you're such a noble egalitarian and believer that anything involving someone's "creativity" is art (but uh oh, what qualifies as _creative!!!???_ ), I know of this great work of art that you just need to check out:


You are making a strangely elementary mistake. I never did assert that 'self referring to something as art makes it instantly art'. If you remember I am not the one categorising and judging what is and isn't art. I already know that it is a slippery concept, which is clearly why I brought the matter to your attention.

Typical definitions - including the meaning of the word which specifically means human/animal skill and contrivance rather than something springing from nature like e.g. a waterfall - don't do much to help the idea of inclusion/exclusion. This is because 'art' is now mixed up with ideas of aesthetics and matters of taste. It explains the development of ideas such as so-called "high art" and "low art" which ultimately rest on subjective judgements. The idea of the 'beautiful' being an integral component to art - which is not an obvious conclusion from the base meaning - brings many problems.

The application of the word 'art' to things like that book cover and something like 'the art of Tennis' are not really misapplying the word as the definition of it as human skill/contrivance above shows. They clearly attempt lift it out of the league of mere motor skill by considering it _artful_ to have consciously refined the principles of working into something refined and considered. This is the usual definition of an "art song" which is supposed to be consciously worked and crafted with deliberate meaning, as opposed to a folk-song; though I would question the assumptions on that.

Putting a Trump book cover as an example is really irrelevant to the matter and was rather a red herring. Since anything associated with Trump has to be negative, right?


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

eugeneonagain said:


> I already know that it is a slippery concept, which is clearly why I brought the matter to your attention.


Much obliged to you for pointing that out to me.



> Putting a Trump book cover as an example is really irrelevant to the matter and was rather a red herring. Since anything associated with Trump has to be negative, right?


Actually I was just playing around. Lighten up my friend, you don't want to start sounding like all those "pseudo-philosophers" you are always calling out, do you? 

Truth be told, I appreciate your observations and the time you've put into considering this topic, but the fact that definitions and conceptions of art or any concept can be blurry is rather irrelevant to the point I was originally making.


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## 20centrfuge (Apr 13, 2007)

Zhdanov said:


> take for example those gay poodles they call Depeche Mode, there wouldn't be any of theirs if not for Schubert lieder.


Funniest quote of the day!!


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## Daniel Atkinson (Dec 31, 2016)

I'm too old to answer this thread, I've never played a video game in my lifetime and I wouldn't be able to name even one. 



Daniel


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Daniel Atkinson said:


> I'm too old to answer this thread, I've never played a video game in my lifetime and I wouldn't be able to name even one.
> 
> Daniel


I feel your pain brother! I've never played a video game either. Strikes me as "inane".


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

20centrfuge said:


> Funniest quote of the day!!


Actually I'm a bit miffed about it because I received an 'infraction' notice for using mildly chiding language and someone else gets away with casual homophobia.

No right of reply either. It's actually rather a disgrace.


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## Minor Sixthist (Apr 21, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> Actually I'm a bit miffed about it because I received an 'infraction' notice for using mildly chiding language and someone else gets away with casual homophobia.
> 
> No right of reply either. It's actually rather a disgrace.


TC: where disagreement with proper justification equates to infraction.

Just remember, thoughtcrime is punishable. Ignorance is strength. Safest way out is to side with the hivemind.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

How is this not on par with the the masters of the romantic period ? I find this incredibly moving ,elegant and well-structured and interesting throughout. I'd be happy to recieve recommendations based on this. Something similar in terms of the mood it evokes.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> How is this not on par with the the masters of the romantic period ? I find this incredibly moving ,elegant and well-structured and interesting throughout. I'd be happy to recieve recommendations based on this. Something similar in terms of the mood it evokes.
> 
> [video]video[/video]


On a par? Perhaps it could be since it is a pastiche of the 'classical' music of the last 200 years. The opening sounds like what....the music for the _Band of Brothers_ TV series? the underscore to Apollo 13? Back to the Future?
Then the Tchaikovsky-like waltz bit (in 6/8) for a minute or so before returning to the same theme as the opening.

It's not rubbish, but there's a million other things like it. A great deal of film and game music - most often that done as symphonic type music - borrows heavily from the traditions of orchestral music, sometimes even quoting it directly. The piece you posted is a short piece, basically just a statement section of a larger work. I feel that new listeners are initially more attracted to shorter works because of listening habits instilled by pop music.

Understand that the 'masters' are the ones who actually worked to develop this language and put those pieces in place so that it seems easy now to just rewrite similar things to what someone else sweated to create before they existed.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> On a par? Perhaps it could be since it is a pastiche of the 'classical' music of the last 200 years. The opening sounds like what....the music for the _Band of Brothers_ TV series? the underscore to Apollo 13? Back to the Future?
> Then the Tchaikovsky-like waltz bit (in 6/8) for a minute or so before returning to the same theme as the opening.
> 
> It's not rubbish, but there's a million other things like it. A great deal of film and game music - most often that done as symphonic type music - borrows heavily from the traditions of orchestral music, sometimes even quoting it directly. The piece you posted is a short piece, basically just a statement section of a larger work. I feel that new listeners are initially more attracted to shorter works because of listening habits instilled by pop music.
> ...


Perhaps you are right or maybe you just are biased against video game composers and video games in general. Ive seen this sort of reasoning before, where you dont like something - just call it pop music.

Personally im not attracted to short works because of pop, but beaause many longer works just has less structure and development, and very often just wanders around doing nothing. Id take a 5-6 min piece where you have intriguing and intersting passages/motifs/melodies and ideas instead of a 20 min long piece with just some sterotypical crescendos with highs and lows and just passages of basically "nothing" musically interesting. That being siad I listen to both shorter and longer material of music.


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## David OByrne (Dec 1, 2016)

Video game composers wrote music for games? am I wrong? 

It's a really terrible thing, I hate video games because the music is always way too good :angel:


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Perhaps you are right or maybe you just are biased against video game composers and video games in general. Ive seen this sort of reasoning before, where you dont like something - just call it pop music.


I am not biased against video game music at all. I've spent a good few posts in this thread defending it! I have the entire soundtrack to _Medal of Honor: Allied Assault_ on my computer. I still recognise that most of this music has a function beyond being 'art music'. It has to appeal immediately and the best way to do it is to write in the tried and true way blockbuster film producers know so well.



Kajmanen said:


> Personally im not attracted to short works because of pop, but beaause many longer works just has less structure and development, and very often just wanders around doing nothing. Id take a 5-6 min piece where you have intriguing and intersting passages/motifs/melodies and ideas instead of a 20 min long piece with just some sterotypical crescendos with highs and lows and just passages of basically "nothing" musically interesting. That being siad I listen to both shorter and longer material of music.


The part I underlined seems to me more a justification of what I wrote previously. It may feel like a larger work is wandering around and has less structure, but this is because the scale is larger and development is accordingly more complex. They are in fact highly structured with a great deal of development, which is why they are longer!


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> I am not biased against video game music at all. I've spent a good few posts in this thread defending it! I have the entire soundtrack to _Medal of Honor: Allied Assault_ on my computer. I still recognise that most of this music has a function beyond being 'art music'. It has to appeal immediately and the best way to do it is to write in the tried and true way blockbuster film producers know so well.
> 
> The part I underlined seems to me more a justification of what I wrote previously. It may feel like a larger work is wandering around and has less structure, but this is because the scale is larger and development is accordingly more complex. They are in fact highly structured with a great deal of development, which is why they are longer!


Well, yeah, but many are just wandering around without being meaningful or grasping imo. That is just my subjective view ofc. Its not that I "dont get" things that are more complex, I do, Im coming from listening to alot of experimental and avant-garde stuff in the electronic world so thats not the issue.


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## ROBOT (Jul 17, 2017)

Noruyuki Iwadare： Ithink some of the chords are very good， but there are some chord changes that I have heard too many times before （IN　C MAJOR： D　minor，E major，　A minor is ageless， but I　have　heard　it　so　much？），　I　like　that　there　are　very　many　versions　on　the　melody　at　２：０３　with　different　chords，　after　２　minutes　though　I　feel　is　less　interesting？　There　are　important　rhythm　shake-ups　here　and　there　after　that，　but　I　think　it　is　not　enough？　It　does　seem　very　Japanese　and　video　game　like，　that　is　exactly　right！


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## ROBOT (Jul 17, 2017)

I‘m sorry， I didn't see the other pages，I think the piece is very good-！


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I've never played a video game but am confident that there's some fine music in that medium. However, I find the music in the original posting totally unappealing and derivative. It would stink in a video game or movie. As a stand-alone, it's a losing cause.


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Well, yeah, but many are just wandering around without being meaningful or grasping imo. That is just my subjective view ofc. Its not that I "dont get" things that are more complex, I do, Im coming from listening to alot of experimental and avant-garde stuff in the electronic world so thats not the issue.


Re: "many works just wandering around without...etc"

Which works are you referring to specifically?


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Well? ^^^

I think you might find smoother interaction with more users on TC if you supported your claims with at least some specifics about particular work(s) to at least give an impression (or even ascertain) that you've spent some legitimate time and effort with them. Or, if you haven't, which appears to be the case, just state that you've spent little time with Classical so far, and up until now it doesnt seem to be working for you, but are still learning and hope it does (or something like that). All I've seen so far (unless Ive missed something) are miscellaneous generalities "about Classical music".


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

AfterHours said:


> Well? ^^^
> 
> I think you might find smoother interaction with more users on TC if you supported your claims with at least some specifics about particular work(s) to at least give an impression (or even ascertain) that you've spent some legitimate time and effort with them. Or, if you haven't, which appears to be the case, just state that you've spent little time with Classical so far, and up until now it doesnt seem to be working for you, but are still learning and hope it does (or something like that). All I've seen so far (unless Ive missed something) are miscellaneous generalities "about Classical music".


The thing is that you tend to forget and sort out the generic music you give a chance listening to. Classical music is great when it is meaningful or go somewhere. Its like pretty much every other genere out there. Lots of mediocre non-original stuff that just is average, "ok", but doesnt leave a lasting impression.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that approach will not work in today's reality where *degenerate art* is pushed on everyone and you risk ending up in bad taste.


I'd advise a more tactful phrase there, sir...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Really? Where do some of you think the video composers learned their trade, directly or indirectly, except from some of the "dorky old masters"? This includes such talents as orchestration, effective harmonic development, thematic writing, dramatic writing, narrative writing, sweeping and effective melodies. But some of you have no respect for that because you can't identify the exact piece they stole many of their ideas from.

In the cinema, which is a similar field, someone like John Williams took from the Mahler and Bruckner symphonies, but yet in the field of the video writing, it's the video composers who are now the heroes, as if their work just magically sprang from the head of Zeus without learning from others. Go figure! While the music can be very good in the video genre, the upstart composers - all of them! - still stand on the shoulders of others, whether the dorky old masters are granted the proper respect they deserve or not.

I suggest some of you listen to Respighi's fantastic composition and atmospheric orchestration of _The Pines of Rome_ through a superb audiophile sound system, not an Android, and then let the world know when a video composer comes up with something as evocative, thrilling and spectacular. You're welcome. :wave:


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Larkenfield said:


> Really? Where do some of you think the video composers learned their trade, directly or indirectly, except from some of the "dorky old masters"? This includes such talents as orchestration, effective harmonic development, thematic writing, dramatic writing, narrative writing, sweeping and effective melodies. But some of you have no respect for that because you can't identify the exact piece they stole many of their ideas from.
> 
> In the cinema, which is a similar field, someone like John Williams took from the Mahler and Bruckner symphonies, but yet in the field of the video writing, it's the video composers who are now the heroes, as if their work just magically sprang from the head of Zeus without learning from others. Go figure! While the music can be very good in the video genre, the upstart composers - all of them! - still stand on the shoulders of others, whether the dorky old masters are granted the proper respect they deserve or not.
> 
> I suggest some of you listen to Respighi's fantastic composition and atmospheric orchestration of _The Pines of Rome_ through a superb audiophile sound system, not an Android, and then let the world know when a video composer comes up with something as evocative, thrilling and spectacular. You're welcome. :wave:


This is a good post. Although I dont agree about the music. Its the usual low to high bombastic generic classical that just wanders around and doesn't say anything meaningful. Repetitiv samey chords from different intrstruemnts. Theres no clear melodies or themes that flow and builds to anything. If you'd put Prokofievs 7th or Dvoraks 8th it wouldve been another thing.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Strong melodies that definitely go somewhere, clear themes, doesn't wander around too much, not too bombastic.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> Strong melodies that definitely go somewhere, clear themes, doesn't wander around too much, not too bombastic.


This really stirs you up doesn't it? I like prokofievs 7th and dvoraks 8, so c'mon, dont be ridiculous. That k-mart muzak is some nice vaporwave though


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

OK, I was just messing. But seriously, if you're not willing to make any effort to confront anything that doesn't conform to your restrictive conditions of 'not bombastic; only clear, accessible melodies; only themes that are clear enough that you like it upon first listen; can't go off in unexpected directions; can't be challenging; can't be even remotely confusing upon first listen; no crescendos; no dramatic changes etc etc...

You've ventured into classical with a set of predefined conditions/opinions about what music should be and you're telling yourself 'this is the only type of music I like and will ever like'. That won't take you anywhere particularly interesting or enlightening, I think. Just my opinion.

In the meantime, try some of Scarlatti's sonatas:


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Tallisman said:


> OK, I was just messing. But seriously, if you're not willing to make any effort to confront anything that doesn't conform to your restrictive conditions of 'not bombastic; only clear, accessible melodies; only themes that are clear enough that you like it upon first listen; can't go off in unexpected directions; can't be challenging; can't be even remotely confusing upon first listen; no crescendos; no dramatic changes etc etc...
> 
> You've ventured into classical with a set of predefined conditions/opinions about what music should be and you're telling yourself 'this is the only type of music I like and will ever like'. That won't take you anywhere particularly interesting or enlightening, I think. Just my opinion.
> 
> In the meantime, try some of Scarlatti's sonatas:


Some assumtions in that wall of text. Music can go into unexpected territory, no problem, I love that actually. Music can be bombastic, but in the right context. Its the pointless being bombastic for bombastic sake I dont like, or endless tinkly samey repetitiv notes/chords wandering into nothingness I despise. Why should you have to listen to a piece 10 times to "get it" if its not even slightly interesting in the first or second listen? Good music grabs you immediatly. Like Prokofievs 7th for example.I love these symphonies which has strong themes but does something clever with them and varies them throughout the whole movement.

But creating good accessible melodies and themes in classical music nowadays seems like a taboo among both listeners and composers etc.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Some assumtions in that wall of text. Music can go into unexpected territory, no problem, I love that actually. Music can be bombastic, but in the right context. Its the* pointless being bombastic for bombastic sake I dont like,* or endless tinkly samey repetitiv notes/chords wandering into nothingness I despise. Why should you have to listen to a piece 10 times to "get it" if its not even slightly interesting in the first or second listen? Good music grabs you immediatly.


1) You can't definitively judge whether it's being 'bombastic for bombastic's sake' or whether that bombast is out of place upon first listen. The only reason you think that is because you enter into the piece hoping that it will live up to the things that you have previously liked in the past, instead of being open-minded and trying to think deeply; 'why has the composer put that crescendo there?', 'why does that melody keep going away etc'. Those questions will only be answered if you try a little harder and don't just give up as soon as you feel it doesn't immediately satisfy you. There's nothing wrong with liking music that's immediately satisfying, but there IS something wrong with totally rejecting anything that ISN'T immediately satisfying.

2) Creating strong melodies is and has never been a taboo. You're only saying that because you can't accept that sometimes good music that goes beyond mere melody and you don't want to understand why others like that.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Some assumptions in that wall of text. Music can go into unexpected territory, no problem, I love that actually. Music can be bombastic, but in the right context.


What is the 'right' context? Why do you think that a composer would be doing it in the wrong context? How do you know that what seems to you the "wrong context" isn't music entering unexpected territory?



Kajmanen said:


> Its the pointless being bombastic for bombastic sake I don't like, or endless tinkly same-y repetitive notes/chords wandering into nothingness I despise.


That you simply don't like it is no indication of it being bombast for bombast's sake. That 'tinkly, same-y repetitive notes/chords' if you care to listen more closely, is usually less same-y and repetitive than you think. Melodies often undergo changes as they progress. There is also the consideration of this being 'art music' so there's not always going to be a nice clear, symmetrical construction there for you. This is not pop music.



Kajmanen said:


> Why should you have to listen to a piece 10 times to "get it" if its not even slightly interesting in the first or second listen? Good music grabs you immediately. Like Prokofievs 7th for example.I love these symphonies which has strong themes but does something clever with them and varies them throughout the whole movement.


Well, no one is forcing you to listen to anything 10 times, or even one time. "Good music grabs you immediately" is obviously false because almost everyone reports not liking something initially and then rediscovering it and changing their minds about it; sometimes years later.



Kajmanen said:


> But creating good accessible melodies and themes in classical music nowadays seems like a taboo among both listeners and composers etc.


This is a discussion ongoing elsewhere on here.


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## jdec (Mar 23, 2013)

Kajmanen said:


> This is a good post. Although I dont agree about the music. Its the usual low to high bombastic generic classical that just wanders around and doesn't say anything meaningful. Repetitiv samey chords from different intrstruemnts. Theres no clear melodies or themes that flow and builds to anything. If you'd put Prokofievs 7th or Dvoraks 8th it wouldve been another thing.


This description of Respighi's Pini di Roma is hilarious. :lol:

Guys don't waste your time anymore here. Whatever great classical work you suggest to the OP will not measure up to his video game music standards.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

eugeneonagain said:


> What is the 'right' context? Why do you think that a composer would be doing it in the wrong context? How do you know that what seems to you the "wrong context" isn't music entering unexpected territory?
> 
> That you simply don't like it is no indication of it being bombast for bombast's sake. That 'tinkly, same-y repetitive notes/chords' if you care to listen more closely, is usually less same-y and repetitive than you think. Melodies often undergo changes as they progress. There is also the consideration of this being 'art music' so there's not always going to be a nice clear, symmetrical construction there for you. This is not pop music.
> 
> ...


Why do you keep mentioning pop music? I have stated that I like classical musical. Is prokofiev 7th and dvoraks 8th consider pop classical?

Shostakovich 11th second movement is in the right context. So I do like bombastic.


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## Resurrexit (Apr 1, 2014)

So how long is this pretense of you wanting to listen to and appreciate some great classical works going to go on, when it's clear all you want to do is have a platform to post some of your favorite video music, which doesn't belong in the "Classical Music Discussion" section of this forum. Start a thread on your favorite video game music in the "Non-Classical Music" and discuss the music you love until your heart's content.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

The OP seems to be assuming that his first gut reaction to a piece of music is the only right judgement. I can imagine: 5 seconds in to listening to Mozart's clarinet concerto for the first time: ''Nope! Turn it off! It's generic and devoid of strong themes!"


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## AfterHours (Mar 27, 2017)

Are you guys still wasting time on this? Has the OP even mentioned a single example of these so-called "great classical works" he's "experienced" that "never develop" (or, insert whatever other generalities being applied: ____________ )? I think it's obvious by now that he has very little experience with Classical music and has little interest or intention in changing that.


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

OK, I give up. This is going nowhere, just back and forth.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Kajmanen said:


> Why do you keep mentioning pop music? I have stated that I like classical musical. Is prokofiev 7th and dvoraks 8th consider pop classical?
> 
> Shostakovich 11th second movement is in the right context. So I do like bombastic.


I mention it because it is a clear example of the simpler structures you seem to be demanding. Why do you keep mentioning Prokofiev's 7th? Well done, you found something that lives up to your exacting standards and tallies with video game music. I assure you you will become bored of those three pieces if that's all you're going to permit for yourself.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Video game music overall is like film music.......it can use very, very similar forces; most of it will consist of overused clichés but a percentage of it will have an undeniable greatness.

To be honest, that's also how classical/ concert/ art music (whatever you want to call it) is often times as well, though I think there's way more of an ivory tower influence and an emphasis on doing things in a way most people would think of as arcane, some of the time.

I remember my family used to go on a vacation to this one hotel. The hotel had a arcade room and me, my brother and sister spent a lot of time there. One game in particular, imported from Japan, was especially popular with all the kids. Everyone wanted to play it - it such huge drama, so much imagination...it was irresistible. What was really remarkable about it, looking back, is that my brother, sister and I would leave the game room humming the tunes that occurred during the game's score, non-stop, for the rest of the day. 

That game was known as SOUL EDGE and I've since gone back and found all the music for it on youtube, and it certainly validates my taste as a 10-year old that many people still think of this music as unexpectedly great.....and for me, it still has so much imagination that it rivals any music of any genre. It's so energetic, yet it has such a genuine romance to it, I can never get enough.


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## mathisdermaler (Mar 29, 2017)

This thread is a greater masterpiece than anything composed by Bach, Mozart or Beethoven.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Try this, if you haven't already:


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## JeffD (May 8, 2017)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> One game in particular, imported from Japan, was especially popular with all the kids. Everyone wanted to play it - it such huge drama, so much imagination...it was irresistible.


Something I hadn't considered. I have not played many video or computer games. And never one consistently. I have at times played this or that once or twice, but just to see what was up. Never been "hooked".

My point is that perhaps one who has played and loved the games would experience the music differently than I would. The themes have a reference in experience that I don't have access to. So maybe the music sounds more trite when taken out of context, or, more likely, the music is experienced more richly by those who can hear it in the context of the associated game.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

Now I want to hear more from OP regarding the videos I posted and how they compare to that video game soundtrack.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2017)

JeffD said:


> perhaps one who has played and loved the games would experience the music differently than I would.


Exactly so. But that goes for all music, doesn't it? The context for one's listening (and one's listening history and habit) is an important factor in explaining our differing experiences and consequently, our differing declarations of what constitutes 'great' music.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

I wonder if this is influenced by tchaikovsky or someone.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

ABC Classic FM (Australia) now plays video game music:

Soule, Jeremy

Elder Scrolls - Skyrim: Far Horizons

London Philharmonic Orchestra, Crouch End Festival Chorus, Tom Cawley (piano), Andrew Skeet (conductor)

The Greatest Video Game Music II (X5 Music X5CD118)

(http://www.abc.net.au/classic/music-listings/)


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Okay, I finally played your piece (5 weeks later) to see what all the fuss was about. I have an opinion. You have an opinion. Donald Trump has an opinion. That's fine. If you like it and can enjoy playing it over and over . . . no harm, no foul. It's the generalization in the OP that I find a little over the top. The Old Masters were attempting to do far different things. Your composer has obviously studied music and used his knowedge to produce what was required. That's what the Masters did. But what was required was different.

When I taught an evening course in music appreciation, I would start off with a little demo to get people on the same page. I would play two pieces that were about 3-4 minutes long. One was a current popular song. The other was the Overture to The Marriage of Figaro. I'd ask people to compare and contrast them. I didn't always get the answe I wanted, but sooner or later people got the point: One had a definite beginning and ending, and "seemed" to go somewhere in between. The other had a beginning, replayed the same verse and chorus 2 or 3 times, and then faded out. That's sort of what yours does (except for that little passage at about 2:30 where the guys in white hats ride to the rescue). Mozart wrote within the norms and expectations of his times, and did it very well. Your guy wrote within the norms and expectations of the gaming community and, presumably, does it well. To compare one to the other does a disservice to both. But I bet that you if listened to yours 25 times straight without reference to the game, your head would be more likely to explode.


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## Kajmanen (Jun 30, 2017)

Anyone know anything from the classical period that resembles this? From 1min in. The contrasting rhythms/melodies.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Kajmanen said:


> Anyone know anything from the classical period that resembles this? From 1min in. The contrasting rhythms/melodies.


I think you'd find better matches in film music. Few would mistake this for what people around here think of as classical music, of any period.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

eugeneonagain said:


> Mozart was already basically writing for a similar genre: 'divertimenti' in his own time. So I can't see him passing up the chance of easy money to knock out a few game soundtracks - even under a pseudonym. He liked spending money, so it would have been too tempting.


I think the main reason why Mozart's divertimenti are considered his lesser works is because they were written in his early period. Like the childhood symphonies #1~20, they were more like composition practice to get himself skills to write better works. Towards his later period, he wrote memorable moments like these, even in his divertimenti






especially this movement shows his skills for melodic variations and foreshadows the last movement (also in theme and variations) of his 'avant garde' String Quartet No.15 in D minor. 



Mozart wasn't just writing 'Justin Beiberish pop music' even in his lesser works, people should realize this. His final divertimento, K563 in E flat is also a decent work he wrote in the same year as his 3 last symphonies.


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

Kajmanen said:


> In creating strong thematic evocative themes and melodies. Please proove me wrong. And don't say that I hate classical and bash it because I dont but why are some of the themes/melodies from the old masters so damn dorky or silly?
> 
> This is one of my faves from Noriyuki Iwadare from the game Grandia. I just havn't come across anything from the classical era that reaches this high in creating something so beautful.


Nothing special here - no better or worse than most film music displaying little creativity. It does get tiresome hearing from video game enthusiasts who praise mediocre music to the sky.


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## Botschaft (Aug 4, 2017)

What did you just do, Bulldog? :lol:


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