# Attracting more young people to enjoy Opera



## hugoseilern (Sep 1, 2014)

How can opera houses compete with the rest of the music industry in trying to obtain and keep valued customers from within the younger generation??
Is Opera a dying artform? Could a teenager tell you something composed by both Justin Bieber and Johann Seb. Bach??
Are the the older generations prepared to adapt their opera viewing norms to the technology that is slowly emerging? Opera Live online or in the Cinemas?
Where will opera be in 5 years time?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

hugoseilern said:


> How can opera houses compete with the rest of the music industry in trying to obtain and keep valued customers from within the younger generation??
> Is Opera a dying artform? Could a teenager tell you something composed by both Justin Bieber and Johann Seb. Bach??
> Are the the older generations prepared to adapt their opera viewing norms to the technology that is slowly emerging? Opera Live online or in the Cinemas?
> Where will opera be in 5 years time?


There will always be opera and comparing it with Bieber is an insult to the art of singing


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## hugoseilern (Sep 1, 2014)

Being a musician and a singer, I agree that the two and incomparible but it doesn't answer the question of whether the young are even aware of the power and beauty of Opera. The point is not comparing Bach to Bieber (Which I wasn't!) yet how we can involve the young in Opera houses etc.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

hugoseilern said:


> How can opera houses compete with the rest of the music industry


you mean the industry that's been beaten to a pulp by the advent of illegal downloading? eh heh. Opera houses should focus on raising awareness for the art form. People of all ages will love opera if they are exposed to it enough to know there are many different takes on it. Music is music, if you know it's there you will find something to like.

older generations have already adapted to the cinema and opera live online. In fact, the cinema thing (and quite possibly anything online) is probably more up their alley than to young people's.


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## dgee (Sep 26, 2013)

hugoseilern said:


> How can opera houses compete with the rest of the music industry in trying to obtain and keep valued customers from within the younger generation??
> Is Opera a dying artform? Could a teenager tell you something composed by both Justin Bieber and Johann Seb. Bach??
> Are the the older generations prepared to adapt their opera viewing norms to the technology that is slowly emerging? Opera Live online or in the Cinemas?
> Where will opera be in 5 years time?


Meh - gonna respond to this topic or similar yet again.

What do people you know who really care about their cultural consumption listen to? Some listen to classical (including opera), I'm sure - but I bet a whole bunch listen to jazz and world and alt country and go to see leonard cohen or rufus wainwright or emmy-lou harris etc. Lots of non-classical/pop is serious music now that attracts people who read smart books and go to theatre and who live a very culturally literate lifestyle. Let's face it - we're not trying to convert the masses of people who love Nicki Minaj here, that's a waste of time

So,our group of keen aesthetes have decided they don't want the endless Verdi, Mozart, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini etc that most opera houses throw up. So what? Maybe something different would attract them?

Good thinking! Let's replace every second Trav and Giovanni etc etc with something a bit different - something interesting with a bit of wow factor that isn't just a "night at the opera" where you have to come and love what "opera" has come to signify but you can actually embrace the entirety of the goddamn artform. I'd love it if it was Wozzeck and Lulu (or Eotvos, Furrer, Glanert Sciarrino and others) but at least let's not kill the opera houses with more of the same!

Or you could just double down on more of the same and watch the audience die slowly


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Interesting questions.
Opera in 5 years will still be pretty much the same way it is now with the possibility of a few more venues sadly closing for lack of funds.

I am of the school that it is unlikely to expect the "Bieber generation" to spend the same kind of money for opera tickets that they would for a concert. Opera looks too much like a snob factor to them and in order to become attracted to it they need a different introduction. But now, with the new and wonderful advent of opera in HD at local movie theaters, it has become a viable entryway into the art form. Tickets are inexpensive, popcorn is plentiful, and the performances are live directly from the Met. So maybe this is the way to finally open up their eyes.

I have hope.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

So,our group of keen aesthetes have decided they don't want the endless Verdi, Mozart, Puccini, Donizetti, Bellini etc that most opera houses throw up.

And how did you come to that conclusion?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Assuming musical theatre is alive and well (is it?), there is no reason that opera, ballet and classical music shouldn't be, because (here we go....) it is better! Good marketing and good programming are prerequisites, as are the avoidance of staid and lousy productions that make people never want to visit an opera again.

The image of opera is something that should be constantly attended to. It should be regarded as a normal place that normal people go to, as well as an fancy night out when people want to celebrate and anniversary... or a hot date.

Earlier this year I stopped off in Leeds for two opera nights. The first was Macbeth - modern dress, all grey tones, dim lighting, poorly sung, a truly grim night that I hope wasn't any newcomer's first opera. The following night was Girl of the Golden West - new production, fresh, bright, cinematic, well sung, the audience gripped throughout. It's not rocket surgery.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Forget it. As soon as the first singer opens their mouth they all run away.

I asked someone if they liked opera and they said,"Yeah, I saw Phantom 3 times!".

If you like it, you like it and will find your way there.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I say that there are ways of attracting the young'uns to the form. You just have to know how to entice them is all. Get into "their" brains, not yours.
Not many will resist a murder mystery where an escapee hides in a garden near a church so he won't be found, and a beautiful woman stabs the chief of police to death rather than give in to his sexual demands, thereby hoping to save her lover from a firing squad -- and all this with beautiful costumes and powerful music in the background.
Or what about attracting them with a loose woman who entices a policeman who was going to arrest her and gets him arrested when he sets her free because her sexual power overwhelms him, only to have a wild stabbing scene at the end which is designed to shock while the stunning music is seeping unconsciously into their brains and -- viola! -- they're hooked on 2. 
"Hey, where can I see more of this stuff!  I never knew opera could be so wild."


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

nina foresti said:


> I say that there are ways of attracting the young'uns to the form. You just have to know how to entice them is all. Get into "their" brains, not yours.
> Not many will resist a murder mystery where an escapee hides in a garden near a church so he won't be found, and a beautiful woman stabs the chief of police to death rather than give in to his sexual demands, thereby hoping to save her lover from a firing squad -- and all this with beautiful costumes and powerful music in the background.
> Or what about attracting them with a loose woman who entices a policeman who was going to arrest her and gets him arrested when he sets her free because her sexual power overwhelms him, only to have a wild stabbing scene at the end which is designed to shock while the stunning music is seeping unconsciously into their brains and -- viola! -- they're hooked on 2.
> "Hey, where can I see more of this stuff! I never knew opera could be so wild."


Doesn't work. They may listen once or twice, but that's it.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't know enough really to offer an opinion, so will just tell you my experience. Taggart & I have seen very few operas because we live in the provinces & couldn't get up to London for the evening even if we felt we could afford it. We have seen a few operas at the Lowestoft Marina because Ellen Kent took a company on tour, and then we saw a Handel opera done by English Touring Opera at Aldeburgh. The houses were always full, and there were middle-aged people as well as elderly, and some young people brought by their parents. I think if the economics could be sorted and operas brought to the provinces, young people might get to be interested. Hope so, anyway, because every single production we saw was fabulous.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

And what about operetta? We went to a Gilbert and Sullivan festival attracting a lot of young people including many amateur singers. There were a couple of performances of Tosca - one at Fountains Abbey and one in Harrogate. Some of the groups also do opera ranging from the Barber of Seville to Albert Herring. There are university groups there as well. 

Basically, people who like music and singing will gravitate to opera if it is available at a reasonable price. Part of the problem is the lack of good second rate companies to put on the standards and that's where the amateurs come in - where you can hire a couple of good leads and back them up with a couple of good amateurs and a solid amateur chorus.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Doesn't work. They may listen once or twice, but that's it.


Too bad that you had a negative experience but luckily for me I have had a positive one (and more than once) so I still believe it's all in the approach.
Maybe you just didn't get into their heads???


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## BaronScarpia (Apr 2, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Forget it. As soon as the first singer opens their mouth they all run away.


^^Not even slightly true! I am, I believe, the one of the youngest active members of TC, and therefore I may be able to provide some insight into the minds of young people!

Anyway...

The greatest problem is that of perception. The majority of my friends think opera is all about fat women who stand motionless on a stage and warble to a theatre full of old people. As soon as you tell them that it's not, explain to them that operas are stories with plots, explain that there are surtitles now, that many young people go to the opera and show them pictures of a few slim, beautiful and young singers, they realise that they are rather misguided. Several of my friends, upon hearing some of the opera I have on my phone, have been taken aback and have said that, if they had the money, they would go and see an opera. They haven't fallen head-over-heels in love with the artform, but I didn't and now I love it!

Those on TC who know me may be surprised that I have only seen two operas *live*. The second was La bohème at ROH in July. I was pleasantly surprised at the proportion of young people. My friend and I were the only teenagers there, but there were many people in their early twenties. In my experience, young opera-goers tend to be the most knowledgeable, too!

A lot of people seem to have this strange notion that modern operas attract larger numbers of young people. I don't whether or not you've noticed, but modern operas aren't generally very accessible to most adults, let alone young people! La bohème is the perfect opera with which to introduce someone to opera. It's stylish, has a heart-warming, heart-melting plot, glorious music, lovable characters and opportunities for great costumes and staging.

I'm taking a friend to see Madama Butterfly (at the cinema) later this month. After that we plan to see one live together. She knows nothing about classical music, but she appreciates art. That's all you need to be able to do in order to enjoy opera. We young people are a lot sharper than most seasoned opera-goers and lovers seem to think


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I think the surtitles should make a lot of difference. I was afraid about not understanding the lyrics and being bemused or bored before I saw my first opera - Tosca - and then when I saw the translation - *wonderful!*


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bravo Baron Scarpia! You are a perfect example of what I am talking about. If a person has art in his/her soul to begin with, regardless of age, it will come through eventually.
Perfect post!


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Ingélou said:


> We have seen a few operas at the Lowestoft Marina because Ellen Kent took a company on tour, and then we saw a Handel opera done by English Touring Opera at Aldeburgh.


I believe touring opera is one of the best ways to attract people. People like a reason to go out and are likely to give it a try if it's there. It doesn't even need to be a big investment. Just this weekend I went to see Poppea at the tiny Arcola Theatre in Hackney (300-400 capacity or thereabouts, 9 piece orchestra, 10 singers perhaps and minimal but effective stage design). It ended up being a lovely evening for £15.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

opera offers true live sound with true voices. I mean without amplification/PA.


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

deggial said:


> I believe touring opera is one of the best ways to attract people. People like a reason to go out and are likely to give it a try if it's there. It doesn't even need to be a big investment. Just this weekend I went to see Poppea at the tiny Arcola Theatre in Hackney (300-400 capacity or thereabouts, 9 piece orchestra, 10 singers perhaps and minimal but effective stage design). It ended up being a lovely evening for £15.


Yes! The notion that you need to spend a million $£€ on an opera production is clearly not true. The most important thing is simply that it is done well.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Taggart said:


> And what about operetta?


Although some fine Opera Singers have performed in Operetta, many a fine Operetta Singer will not, cannot, perform Opera.

That by way of saying Operetta is a very different kettle of fish. Remember, too, that "musicals," -- ala Broadway or West End -- are also a variety of Operetta, though I do not know if Operetta has gotten to the point where all the soloists are mic'd! 

They are all one or another variety of _Singspiel,_ with dialogue, and the music much more toward the strophic and 'catchy tunes' department, i.e. the public will and can leave the theater singing much of what they've heard.

Add / top that with the fact that if performed in your own country, the singing, apart from sounding a bit more 'natural' in its vocal production, usually in your native tongue.

All a very far cry from a show where all is sung, vocal production is very different (with vocal ranges as different -- expanded -- as well) and this is often sung in 'not your language,' and comparisons between the two leave more differences than similarities.

With the exception of lieder, I don't believe any other kind of singing or form of musical theater is a 'certain' gateway to the path of interest in opera. I'd even argue the contrary.


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## Reedmeadow (Sep 2, 2014)

I think a good way to help young people enjoy opera would be to find a link between an opera and their interests. I'm sure they would be amazed if they saw something that really appealed to them in such an art form that it would encourage them to look out for more. You shouldn't push them into liking things just because it's opera. Things of interest like history, literature, religion, art and philosophy can be found in many different operas. Even simple things like orchestrated storms, women in drag or a good old song about Bacchus might make them fall in love with opera. With youtube as an unlimited source they can explore til their hearts content but they need to find that first spark of interest.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

PetrB said:


> Although some fine Opera Singers have performed in Operetta, many a fine Operetta Singer will not, cannot, perform Opera.
> 
> That by way of saying Operetta is a very different kettle of fish. Remember, too, that "musicals," -- ala Broadway or West End -- are also a variety of Operetta, though I do not know if Operetta has gotten to the point where all the soloists are mic'd!
> 
> ...


There are many operas that have music that is catchy and were you at least in your thoughts can sing much of the opera. I would say all of the more popular operas.
Opera is sometimes performed in the language of the country it is performed in and in the old days it was standard. And operettas are performed in original languages too.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Reedmeadow said:


> I think a good way to help young people enjoy opera would be to find a link between an opera and their interests.


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## Divasin (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> Doesn't work. They may listen once or twice, but that's it.


Niña's comments strike home..growing up in a rural Canadian community radio was the daily hog sales report... a travelling MET young singers program got me turned on to Opera in a visceral way... such passion.. such excitement...
I read often about young opera directors who are taking productions into the community and I think that's brilliant!


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

PetrB said:


> With the exception of lieder, I don't believe any other kind of singing or form of musical theater is a 'certain' gateway to the path of interest in opera. I'd even argue the contrary.


I take your point about operatic singing, and I agree that enjoying musicals and/or operettas is not a 'certain' gateway to interest in opera proper. However, in our case I feel sure that familiarity with operetta did help the transition to opera. And if in our case, why not others?

We were lucky enough to enjoy what the University Light Opera group had to offer during the three years that I was a student at Durham university and the nine years that Taggart & I lived in the city after (by chance) he got his first job there.

One of the leading lights of DULOG (Durham University Light Opera Group) went on to start his own agency for singers of all kinds, including opera.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

but should opera houses only try to lure in *young* people? Looks like a bunch of us got into opera a bit later on.


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## Divasin (Aug 8, 2014)

deggial said:


> but should opera houses only try to lure in *young* people? Looks like a bunch of us got into opera a bit later on.


Very provocative...... care to elaborate in a new thread??
"how I got hooked on opera at the ripe old age of___"


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

^ I don't know about a new thread but I wrote a shortish post on the subject in *my blog*


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Yes - it could be that the key to keeping opera going is to draw in 'young middle aged people' aged 35-45. They still have style, they have the money for the tickets, they maybe have teenage children to influence, and they can keep going for another 40 years with any luck. 
Drawing in even older people like me wouldn't be the answer - we're just too uncool.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Ingélou said:


> I take your point about operatic singing, and I agree that enjoying musicals and/or operettas is not a 'certain' gateway to interest in opera proper. However, in our case I feel sure that familiarity with operetta did help the transition to opera. And if in our case, why not others?.


My interest in opera began when I saw a TV-program with operetta numbers and "Ich hab kein Geld bin Vogelfrei" from The Beggar Student stuck in my head.

The best way to attract young people to opera is to have opera exposed more often. More operas on TV would be the most important.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

hugoseilern said:


> Could a teenager tell you something composed by both Justin Bieber and Johann Seb. Bach??


To be fair, I can't do that either.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

Sloe said:


> The best way to attract young people to opera is to have opera exposed more often. More operas on TV would be the most important.


agreed. they should air operas in prime time (or before it).

Die Frau Ohne Schatten was on Duna Tv (state television), but it started 10 minuter after 11PM, ended after 2:00(AM).


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

perempe said:


> agreed. they should air operas in prime time (or before it).
> 
> Die Frau Ohne Schatten was on Duna Tv (state television), but it started 10 minuter after 11PM, ended after 2:00(AM).


That is *too *late for most people.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

perempe said:


> Die Frau Ohne Schatten was on Duna Tv (state television), but it started 10 minuter after 11PM, ended after 2:00(AM).


rock on Duna TV!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

How young are we talking about? Nearly a third of Opera Paris' audience is under 40.
The link is the annual report which has some stats towards the end of it. Page 48 has the age demographic.
http://www.operadeparis.fr/Newsletter/pdfs/Opera-national-de-Paris-Rapport-activites-2012.pdf


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm a 'young person', I love opera and I wasn't introduced to it by anyone, I just sort of found it through listening to CM and the internet. There's no real excuse not to find a way into it.

What I don't understand is why the fan-base for musical theatre (in terms of broadway and the west end) is so large, and the same people don't give a fig about opera. One of these forms is shallow and artless, the other is comprised of some of the greatest artistic achievements of the western world. Its actually quite tragic the way attention has been diverted from opera into films and populist theatre.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Most musical theater is based on pop/rock-style music. Most of the singing styles used are close to natural speech, the songs are in the local language, and there is often a lot of dialogue so it is easy to follow along. Musicals are not treated as perfect, unalterable documents so new productions can (and especially on Broadway and the West End are encouraged to) be significant revisions or reinterpretations to match modern sensibilities and concerns (and to do away with embarrassing or offensive material). This is especially important for humor; many musicals are actually funny. Casts on Broadway, the West End and other major productions will feature recognizable (to the general public) pop stars and film and televisions actors and actresses.

I know a fair number of people who like both opera and musicals, myself included. And there certainly are some musical fans that would find a lot to love from operas - just as there are opera fans who would find a lot to love in musicals - but there are significant differences.

And dismissing musicals as "shallow and artless" is just as myopic as dismissing operas as (say) old-fashioned and bizarre.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

mountmccabe said:


> Most musical theater is based on pop/rock-style music. Most of the singing styles used are close to natural speech, the songs are in the local language, and there is often a lot of dialogue so it is easy to follow along. Musicals are not treated as perfect, unalterable documents so new productions can (and especially on Broadway and the West End are encouraged to) be significant revisions or reinterpretations to match modern sensibilities and concerns (and to do away with embarrassing or offensive material). This is especially important for humor; many musicals are actually funny. Casts on Broadway, the West End and other major productions will feature recognizable (to the general public) pop stars and film and televisions actors and actresses.
> 
> I know a fair number of people who like both opera and musicals, myself included. And there certainly are some musical fans that would find a lot to love from operas - just as there are opera fans who would find a lot to love in musicals - but there are significant differences.
> 
> And dismissing musicals as "shallow and artless" is just as myopic as dismissing operas as (say) old-fashioned and bizarre.


I dismiss them as shallow and artless because they are overly manipulative. As Sir Peter Maxwell Davies said of War horse, 'it assumed emotions it had not earned'; and I think this applies to musicals too. There is no drama, only sentimentality.

What do I mean by shallow? Well, that there is no unsavoury content in musicals; when all is said and done, the audience can have a good laugh or cry, cheer and clap and go home completely unchanged; moved only on a superficial level. Contrast this with something like Cosi fan tutte; a play which on a superficial level may appear like pure frivolity, but which makes us feel very awkward and uneasy at times; it shakes our ideas about fidelity, it questions our deep-seated fears of cuckoldery and the possessive nature of romantic love. By the end, not one character comes out looking absolutely pure of heart. In that sense it makes us reflect upon ourselves. Need I mention why the music is so good?

In the musical things seem to be dumbed down; we might sympathise with the Phantom (to take PotO as an example) but we recognise him as evil and essentially a monster - something with which we cannot really identify. Christine is an ingénue (nothing else need be said), Raoul a handsome faultless hero. Every other character is even more pointless and, if not incompetent, then mind-numbingly dull to watch and listen to. Lloyd Webber's music is contrived and imitative of work that expresses the same ideas about 1000 times better.

In Les Miserables, Javert as a character is barely developed, instead he is rendered like a pantomime villain rather than a reflection of his society. Goodies win out in the end; the student revolutionaries are all heroic and have noble motives, the only conflict arises when they confront the faceless evil oppressors. The moral of the piece seems to be 'poverty, oppressive government and persecution are bad, lets bring an end to them' something which barely merits a response besides enthusiastic agreement. So what is the point in saying it? The subtleties and challenging moral questions of the novel are totally lost, in favour of an easily palatable, manipulative experience for a wide audience. See what I mean about shallow?

The music of musicals, if not inspired by catchy pop music, is in some flabby, neo-romantic vein. It mostly fail to communicate any of the stage action, except in vulgar theatrical effects. Contrast that with say, Wozzeck, and you can see that the inner turmoil, thoughts and feelings of the characters are expressed so well through the music that the words are almost unnecessary.

There are musicals I enjoy though; the works of Sondheim are quite good, because they make an attempt to communicate real feeling through the music itself. They are more harmonically and melodically adventurous than most. West Side Story is also fantastic, but then its Bernstein so one can expect that. On the whole though, recognise the musical for what it is; commercial entertainment.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

I see that the Met has $25 tickets. I also see that you can't book when tickets first go on sale time like everywhere else.
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/metropolitan-opera-changes-25-tickets-program/


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## Blancrocher (Jul 6, 2013)

Many probably already know about the "Center for Future Audiences" in Cleveland, which is the result of a large private donation. Lots of cheap tickets for students and young people, and other kinds of outreach. They seem to have been successful in getting young people to attend concerts.

For those interested in the topic:

http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/support-and-volunteers/center-for-future-audiences/


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I dismiss them (musicals) as shallow and artless because they are overly manipulative. As Sir Peter Maxwell Davies said of War horse, 'it assumed emotions it had not earned'; and I think this applies to musicals too. There is no drama, only sentimentality.

And of course we cannot apply this to Madama Butterfly or any number of other operas. 

What do I mean by shallow? Well, that there is no unsavoury content in musicals; when all is said and done, the audience can have a good laugh or cry, cheer and clap and go home completely unchanged; moved only on a superficial level. Contrast this with something like Cosi fan tutte; a play which on a superficial level may appear like pure frivolity, but which makes us feel very awkward and uneasy at times; it shakes our ideas about fidelity, it questions our deep-seated fears of cuckoldery and the possessive nature of romantic love. By the end, not one character comes out looking absolutely pure of heart. In that sense it makes us reflect upon ourselves.

I'm sorry, but for the most part the librettos of the great operas are far from being great literature. The best operas certainly surpass the average musical due to the merits of the music... and there are instances in which the libretto does hold up on its own (Strauss operas and Britten's come to mind). But this says nothing of the merits of the best musicals.

Need I mention why the music is so good?

Yes, the music in the best operas is great...but how many crappy operas have also been penned over the years? There is good and bad in every artistic genre. What we term as "classical music" is not inherently better than the finest work in other genre.

The music of musicals, if not inspired by catchy pop music, is in some flabby, neo-romantic vein. It mostly fail to communicate any of the stage action, except in vulgar theatrical effects. Contrast that with say, Wozzeck, and you can see that the inner turmoil, thoughts and feelings of the characters are expressed so well through the music that the words are almost unnecessary.

Again, you are comparing a single exemplary work of "classical music" with your idea of musicals as a whole. Would you have us believe that "classical music" is not just as laden with mediocre and cliche works... most of which have been thankfully forgotten?

On the whole though, recognise the musical for what it is; commercial entertainment.

Ah! And what is "classical music"? ART all set in capital letters? It seems to me that "classical music" is no less about entertainment than any other musical form.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Attracting a greater audience to opera... or classical music as a whole... is something that must begin in grade school. Undoubtedly a great many classical music lovers benefited from parents who also loved and played classical music.

There are many stereotypes connected to opera and classical music that turn potential listeners away. The first of these is the pretentious attitude and presumption that all other musical forms are inherently inferior. This even applies with the realm of classical music as some listeners with a little experience under their belt make a point of turning up their noses upon Vivaldi's _Four Seasons, Handel's Water Music_, Ravel's _Bolero, Carmina Burana, The Planets,_ etc... thus proving their own superior taste.

I worked with a music teacher who suggested that his goal was not to convince students that the pop music they loved really sucked and that classical music was the greatest. Rather, his aim was to open up students whose tastes were largely defined by what their parents, peers, and the media promoted to the merits of other styles and genre and artists. He wasn't concerned whether they explored Bluegrass, Jazz, the Blues, 1950s Rock n Roll, Folk Music, Non-Western music, Musicals, or "classical music". His reasoning was that once an individual opened up their mind and ears to other possibilities they would likely desire to explore further and further.

Unfortunately, our Arts Education programs... at least in the US... are suffering horribly. They have historically been the first to be cut during times when the budgets are low. Our current misguided aims of limited education largely to Literacy and Mathematics and our obsession with standardized testing has resulted in cuts in funding for not only Arts Education... but almost any "superfluous" classes excepting Phys. Ed/Sports.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The best way to attract young people to opera: have your own children and bring them up with a love of opera/classical music.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The best way to attract young people to opera: have your own children and bring them up with a love of opera/classical music.


Ha! Ha! An instruction manual!!!

However, this IS the way it's usually done. Those lucky kids who are exposed to classical music and opera at a young age by authority figures in the home, usually, but not always, go on to appreciate and love it through adulthood and then perpetuate the cycle with their own kids.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I dismiss them (musicals) as shallow and artless because they are overly manipulative. As Sir Peter Maxwell Davies said of War horse, 'it assumed emotions it had not earned'; and I think this applies to musicals too. There is no drama, only sentimentality.
> 
> And of course we cannot apply this to Madama Butterfly or any number of other operas.
> 
> ...


There are a great deal of bad operas, some of them in the standard rep. The difference is that the majority of opera is good and has stood the test of time because it is good.


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Just out of interest. Did everyone attend opera via school trips? My first opera was when our class saw La Cenerentola. I'm guessing that I was about 10. We saw Carmen when I was about 15. They were matinee performances using the same stage/production as what was playing in the evenings but we had opera students performing. I realise that this sort of thing might be reserved for larger cities but others might have had a recital or something.


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## perempe (Feb 27, 2014)

The Hungarian State Opera will give free performances on Saturday and Sunday (Donizetti's Il campanello, Menotti's The Telephone). 3x2 performances.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> Just out of interest. Did everyone attend opera via school trips? My first opera was when our class saw La Cenerentola. I'm guessing that I was about 10. We saw Carmen when I was about 15. They were matinee performances using the same stage/production as what was playing in the evenings but we had opera students performing. I realise that this sort of thing might be reserved for larger cities but others might have had a recital or something.


I went to a comprehensive. High culture of any kind was banned. OK, Shakespeare was on the English curriculum, but was taught and learned with remarkably little relish. Looking back, that's probably why opera had a certain countercultural appeal: much more satisfying than the more scripted forms of adolescent rebellion!

Perhaps that's how you sell opera to the more contrarian type of teenager: tell them it's all a load of snobby rubbish for posh people, and that they're too thick and common to understand it anyway!


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## Couac Addict (Oct 16, 2013)

Figleaf said:


> I went to a comprehensive. High culture of any kind was banned. OK, Shakespeare was on the English curriculum, but was taught and learned with remarkably little relish. Looking back, that's probably why opera had a certain countercultural appeal: much more satisfying than the more scripted forms of adolescent rebellion!
> 
> Perhaps that's how you sell opera to the more contrarian type of teenager: tell them it's all a load of snobby rubbish for posh people, and that they're too thick and common to understand it anyway!


Like all those people who pretend to have read Joyce's Ulysses


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Couac Addict said:


> Like all those people who pretend to have read Joyce's Ulysses


I've read Joyce's 'Portrait...'. I prefer Beckett.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

The San Francisco Opera put on the other day what seemed like another misguided attempt to make opera seem like a "happening" to young people: a sanctioned live-tweet of the dress rehearsal of Lucia di Lammermoor. There was a section of the audience where phones and other devices were allowed, and presumably filled with journos, bloggers and (maybe) some actual young people. As far as I could tell, none of the tweets produced commented on the actual music, despite this production boasting some of the finest and most appealing singers in the world. It was all mostly happy snark about the plot, costumes, theater, etc.

I suppose it did no harm, and maybe a bit of publicity good, but I question whether making opera seem hip is really going to attract quality young listeners. Honestly the thing that keeps young people away from opera is running up smack against a wall of old-timers who do nothing but complain about the state of modern opera...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> The San Francisco Opera put on the other day what seemed like another misguided attempt to make opera seem like a "happening" to young people: a sanctioned live-tweet of the dress rehearsal of Lucia di Lammermoor. There was a section of the audience where phones and other devices were allowed, and presumably filled with journos, bloggers and (maybe) some actual young people. As far as I could tell, none of the tweets produced commented on the actual music, despite this production boasting some of the finest and most appealing singers in the world. It was all mostly happy snark about the plot, costumes, theater, etc.
> 
> I suppose it did no harm, and maybe a bit of publicity good, but I question whether making opera seem hip is really going to attract quality young listeners. Honestly the thing that keeps young people away from opera is running up smack against a wall of old-timers who do nothing but complain about the state of modern opera...


But...isn't this post itself a complaint about the state of modern opera?

One of the major complaints of those old-timers is that productions try to "make opera seem hip" and don't respect works for what they are or let the composers speak for themselves. The assumption seems to be that contemporary audiences can't be persuaded by great music to "identify" with characters and settings from the past, and that we have to "reinterpret" works in terms of our present cultural views and fashions to get people's attention and hold their interest.

Isn't the attempt to make opera a "happening" for young people based fundamentally on the same condescending assumption? "We know this ancient romantic stuff with all these people walking around in strange clothes and yelling at each other probably isn't something you're capable of appreciating, but if we give you something familiar from your everyday lives - a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down - you may not be totally bored and might even decide to try another opera some day."

Raising people's consciousness and teaching them to appreciate diverse expressions of culture is harder than reducing those expressions to fit what people already expect life to look like. But opera is not like everyday life, it is not a characteristic expression of present-day culture, and altering its nature and "making it hip" to flatter those who neither know nor care about it is definitely something for all of us, not just old-timers, to complain about.


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2015)

Figleaf said:


> Perhaps that's how you sell opera to the more contrarian type of teenager: tell them it's all a load of snobby rubbish for posh people, and that they're too thick and common to understand it anyway!


Good luck with that one Figleaf!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Figleaf said:


> I went to a comprehensive. High culture of any kind was banned. OK, Shakespeare was on the English curriculum, but was taught and learned with remarkably little relish. Looking back, that's probably why opera had a certain countercultural appeal: much more satisfying than the more scripted forms of adolescent rebellion!
> 
> Perhaps that's how you sell opera to the more contrarian type of teenager: tell them it's all a load of snobby rubbish for posh people, and that they're too thick and common to understand it anyway!


Stupid minds think alike I guess?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

Surely it's incumbent on every opera company to do their bit to attract their local audience. Some will clearly be more successful than others.

I think the 30+ age range would provide a better source of new audience members rather than always focusing on 'young people'. Who was it that said 'youth is wasted on the young'. Perhaps the same is true of opera?

I wonder what the letters pages of arts journals and newspapers were like in the 60's? I'll bet many correspondents were of the opinion that opera would scarcely exist 50 years hence. And yet here we are, not doing too badly.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Don Fatale said:


> I think the 30+ age range would provide a better source of new audience members rather than always focusing on 'young people'. Who was it that said 'youth is wasted on the young'. Perhaps the same is true of opera?
> .


The thing is that most people listen to the same music they listened to when they were young that is why it should begin early. To atract people to opera there is only one thing that should be done and that is exposure.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

I was otherwise engaged but was following some of the live tweeting of Lucia; I certainly saw comments about the music, even if that wasn't the subject of most of the tweets.

I would also argue that plot, costumes, and other theatrical elements are entirely relevant. This was not a CD listening party, this was a live, staged opera in a new production. _Lucia di Lammermoor_ has a plot and was originally staged in a theater, with costumes, sets, lighting, and so on.

And here's the thing: many of these theatrical elements are more familiar to most people, even people that listen to and know opera. I know in my life I've seen far more hours of non-opera staged television and film than staged opera. These elements are easier to write about and easier to connect with than specific comments about the music. Incidentally that is one of the reasons this message board is so great; there is a lot of high quality specific reviews of CDs, orchestras, singing. That isn't going to be found everywhere, and not every opera fan is going to be able to produce commentary at the highest level.

But I don't think every opera fan needs to be able to produce essays on the vocal techniques of each performance, or to be able to live-tweet thoughtful, salient details on the orchestra. And I don't think we need to worry that every one who is encouraged to attend and opera has to have the potential to be an aficionado of the highest regard. There's room in opera houses for people who see one performance a year, or only see operas by their favorite composer. And there's even room for first-time attendees, even if some of them decide they don't want to go again.

We should encourage people to attend, and let them decide if they want more based on actually seeing and hearing an opera live. Not everyone who attends will want more, but at least they bought a ticket. And if we discourage people from seeing a first opera there's no chance of them seeing a second (or a third...).


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

SFO's BRAVO! Club with discount tickets is open to people 21-40, so the focus is not entirely on the very young.

Also: in July my wife and I attended SFO's opera in the ballpark, where they showed a live simulcast of _Le nozze di Figaro_.



It was a nice evening, even if it wasn't a perfect set-up to focus on the opera. We convinced a couple friends of ours to attend as well. They had a great time, and were glad they went because they had never watched an opera before.

So because of that free event in the ballpark, someone will be attending her first opera with me on Sunday, seeing _Lucia_. I'm sure there were other people in the ballpark that night that have since or will soon attend an opera live for the first time.

We can't know how they will take to the art form, but they're won't have a chance to become a great fan if they don't see and hear opera. And that's the problem SFO and other organizations are dealing with, trying to make opera visible to give people a chance to consider, hear, and see opera so that they can evaluate for themselves how they feel about the form.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> SFO's BRAVO! Club with discount tickets is open to people 21-40, so the focus is not entirely on the very young.
> 
> Also: in July my wife and I attended SFO's opera in the ballpark, where they showed a live simulcast of _Le nozze di Figaro_.


They had no opportunity to show something more accessible?


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Sloe said:


> They had no opportunity to show something more accessible?


They've done this a few times; I was quite amused to realize that if they were going to go for June/July again their options were going to be _Don Carlo_, _Jenůfa_, and _Carmen_. The first too long, the second too modern, and the third will be in the Bieito production (which does not obscure the raciness and nastiness of the story), so none of them are likely to be simulcast.

I wouldn't be surprised if they simulcast the 2016-17 season opening _Aida_ to the ballpark in September/October 2016, if the Giants' baseball schedule allows it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> They've done this a few times; I was quite amused to realize that if they were going to go for June/July again their options were going to be _Don Carlo_, _Jenůfa_, and _Carmen_. The first too long, the second too modern, and the third will be in the Bieito production (which does not obscure the raciness and nastiness of the story), so none of them are likely to be simulcast.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if they simulcast the 2016-17 season opening _Aida_ to the ballpark in September/October 2016, if the Giants' baseball schedule allows it.


The Marriage of Figaro is also a long opera. Jenufa premiered in 1904 the same year as Madama Butterfly and it is certainly not too modern as in sounding that it might disturb some people.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Sloe said:


> The Marriage of Figaro is also a long opera. Jenufa premiered in 1904 the same year as Madama Butterfly and it is certainly not too modern as in sounding that it might disturb some people.


Those are good points. And, it turns out that the _Don Carlo_ they are performing is scheduled for only 2:45 including one intermission; that is certainly shorter than the (essentially uncut) _Le nozze di Figaro_ was (might have been 3:30 or 3:45 with intermissions?).

I will revise my reasoning. Neither _Don Carlo_ nor _Jenůfa_ are famous enough for me to think SFO will simulcast them. The former was the 41st most produced opera in 2013/14 (per Operabase), with 115 productions. The latter is not in the top 50. Either would be the least performed/least famous since _Samson et Delilah_ in 2007, the first time they did this. The operas they have done since are all in the top 20: Lucia di Lammermoor, Tosca, Il trovatore, Aida, Turandot, Rigoletto, La traviata, and Le nozze di Figaro. (Though that's an argument against _Aida_, that they did it in 2010).

That being said comparing the schedule for _Don Carlo_ with the SF Giants schedule does suggest a possible match of Saturday, June 18, if they wanted to try for it. There is also a stretch around September 23rd when an _Aida_ may be able to be scheduled.

_Jenůfa_ is what I most want to see from the June season (though I want to see all three), Malin Byström in the title role, and Karita Mattila as Kostelnička, with Jiří Bělohlávek conducting. But I doubt they could get even close to 30,000 to the ball park again. Janáček does not have the draw of Mozart.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

mountmccabe said:


> Those are good points. And, it turns out that the _Don Carlo_ they are performing is scheduled for only 2:45 including one intermission; that is certainly shorter than the (essentially uncut) _Le nozze di Figaro_ was (might have been 3:30 or 3:45 with intermissions?).
> 
> I will revise my reasoning. Neither _Don Carlo_ nor _Jenůfa_ are famous enough for me to think SFO will simulcast them. The former was the 41st most produced opera in 2013/14 (per Operabase), with 115 productions. The latter is not in the top 50. Either would be the least performed/least famous since _Samson et Delilah_ in 2007, the first time they did this. The operas they have done since are all in the top 20: Lucia di Lammermoor, Tosca, Il trovatore, Aida, Turandot, Rigoletto, La traviata, and Le nozze di Figaro. (Though that's an argument against _Aida_, that they did it in 2010).
> 
> ...


Better reasoning.
Considering Don Carlo it have the name Verdi attached to it.
Aida is ranked 14 on operabase.
Malin Byström is great.

I agree Janacek don´t have the same draw as Mozart or Verdi for that matter then if Janacek was played over and over he would probably have.


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

Uruguayans, practical they use to be, have found their own way. While here in Brazil intellectual discussions are going on at academic levels without reaching out to the public, typical for us, Uruguay simply sent opera to its public schools, and artists were eager to give a hand doing their jobs for free; the outcoming: students loved it!
















Congratulations Uruguay! You guys have shown an effective way!


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Itullian said:


> Forget it. As soon as the first singer opens their mouth they all run away.


I have found that many, even those who regularly listen to classical music, will react to classical vocal music and/or opera as if you had just smashed a centipede on the table in front of them. They just can't handle it. Yet vocals are a standard in pop music and nobody runs away from it.

I am pleased that my son at the age of 19 got into opera. When I got my first opera DVD he was sure he would want nothing to do with it, but after I kept showing him clips of the Bernstein-conducted Fidelio on DVD he wanted to watch the whole thing. He has since watched half a dozen different operas with me on DVD and is currently watching Meistersinger and loving it. It probably helped that he already was into classical religious vocal music.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

In the Mariinsky, they hold a project "The Academy of Young Theater-goers" so that even four-year-olds would get to know opera. There are small lessons about classical music in general, and there are abridged versions of operas and ballets performed, such as "A Spring Fairytale" – a cut version of "Snegurochka", or "The Tale of the Dawn Princess" — scenes from "Sleeping Beauty", and children even get a chance to meet real singers/dancers and see how an opera or ballet is staged. 

I myself have never been there (most of these projects were established only recently), but I do think it's an excellent idea. 

As for those a bit older, there is a project called Volunteers of the Mariinsky, where many students, including myself, participate. It has 3000 members overall. The volunteers are called to meet and help foreign visitors, and thus attend rehearsals and get invitations for performances. 

Sorry if it all sounds like an ad, I swear I'm praising the Mariinsky purely because I want it


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I believe the OP was not comparing the quality of the singing in opera with Justin Bieber but the difference in the apparent _popularity_ between the two. A resurgence of music education in the schools probably wouldn't hurt opera's popularity - a setting in the past where classical music and opera were first heard and exposed to students, at least in the US. We listened to a radio concert or opera once a week in the classroom starting in fourth grade. It was my first introduction to the music, and it stuck.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Jobis said:


> I'm a 'young person', I love opera and I wasn't introduced to it by anyone, I just sort of found it through listening to CM and the internet. There's no real excuse not to find a way into it.
> 
> What I don't understand is why the fan-base for musical theatre (in terms of broadway and the west end) is so large, and the same people don't give a fig about opera. One of these forms is shallow and artless, the other is comprised of some of the greatest artistic achievements of the western world. Its actually quite tragic the way attention has been diverted from opera into films and populist theatre.


This negative outlook on musical theater doesn't work at all for me. I view it as an entirely different genre with voices that are suited for it and not for opera. Nor are musical theater voices generally suited for pop. Some voices are born for musical theater, such as Mary Martin or John Raitt, or in movie versions, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Renée Zellweger, both featured in the award winning _Chicago_. They were _outstanding_.

Evidently, there are listeners who consider the two genres as mutually exclusive of each other, and I'm pleased to say that I don't. I'm not one to see them as competitive.

_Nine_ was also a fantastic musical IMO as a movie with extraordinary vocal performances by people that one would never expect.

Classical music and opera are IMO best presented early in the schools as part of basic music education, and I speak from personal experience: that's where I was first exposed and I was open to everything. The question is how to _fund_ it, and I believe that every student should be exposed and have the opportunity, whether they take to it or not, because they may never get the exposure at home. We had it for about one hour a week, and it was enough to create a familiarity and interest for many students, some of whom became professional musicians.


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

http://www.loftopera.com/about.html


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

jegreenwood said:


> http://www.loftopera.com/about.html


Good to see they do something bringing "low" cost tickets to get acquainted with opera.


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

The Mariinsky programmes described above by Autumn Leaves sound wonderful. The Bayerische Staatsoper has a "Junges Publikum" program. They allocate a number of tickets to certain performances to be sold to children, students, volunteers, and trainees for €10 each. I think this is a great idea that should be adopted by all opera houses.

The greatest hurdles I've personally faced when trying to get anyone interested in opera, but especially the young, are the stereotypes. Warbling fat ladies in horned helmets singing to the rich (to paraphrase another poster here). We all have a duty to break these down. But in the end if people are not interested, they're not interested.


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## davidglasgow (Aug 19, 2017)

As someone who got into opera very young - being a big fan from about age 11/12 onwards - I found a really useful route were compilation discs which meant that I was introduced to opera my means of more accessible routes e.g. movie soundtracks (I still like Gladiator, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings which jump to mind!) > classical extracts > famous choruses and arias > complete operas. If I had Spotify 15 years ago it would have been even easier and more affordable than buying CDs. Guides such as Penguin and Gramophone helped as well. The way that Youtube allows you to segue into new artists and different content must surely have made people's musical interests more eclectic?


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## Don Fatale (Aug 31, 2009)

davidglasgow said:


> As someone who got into opera very young - being a big fan from about age 11/12 onwards - I found a really useful route were compilation discs which meant that I was introduced to opera my means of more accessible routes e.g. movie soundtracks (I still like Gladiator, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings which jump to mind!) > classical extracts > famous choruses and arias > complete operas. If I had Spotify 15 years ago it would have been even easier and more affordable than buying CDs. Guides such as Penguin and Gramophone helped as well. The way that Youtube allows you to segue into new artists and different content must surely have made people's musical interests more eclectic?


Good points here, to which I'll add that for people on a journey of musical discovery things like Wagner's operas, Beethoven's late string quartets and much else in opera and classical music are the ultimate destination. I consumed virtually everything worth consuming in rock, jazz and blues by my late 20's before finding myself in classical music and opera. If the internet existed back then it would have accelerated the process.

David, congrats on getting into opera young (don't know how old you are now.) The only downside if you've left yourself nothing better to discover ;-)


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