# For someone just getting into classical music...



## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

If you could recommend 20 composers to someone who knows nothing about classical music, and recommend 3 works from each (although if it's only some 10 minute thing then I guess 3 or 4 of those could equal 1), what would you recommend? Would like it to be mostly from romantic and classical eras since I like more expressive music. 

I'm a big fan of the more apocalyptic and downbeat songs of Godspeed You! Black Emperor if that helps. For some reason I find that music to be sad in a very unique way that I can't describe. I haven't really heard classical music be "sad" in the same way, it's more sad in a "classical" way. Does anyone understand what i'm saying? It's hard to explain. I would like classical music that gives the same feeling.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

I'll do one for you...

Tchaikovsky Sym no 6 Pathetique / Violin concerto / Piano concerto no 1


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## WavesOfParadox (Aug 5, 2012)

peterh said:


> since I like more expressive music.


Then how about expressionism?

BEHOLD THE SECOND VIENNESE SCHOOL!

Arnold Schoenberg:
















Alban Berg:
















Anton Webern:
















These may or may not be the best examples of each composer, others can chime in.

And here is my favorite piece of music of all time by Igor Stravinsky:


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## Lenfer (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not sure recommending 20 composers will do anything, start small with 3 or 4 and use *YouTube*. When you find a composer you really like that's when it's time to ask for similar composers/work.

*Bach*, *Brahms*, *Beethoven*, *Chopin*, *Wagner*, *Mozart *and *Vivaldi* should keep you busy for a while.


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## Llyranor (Dec 20, 2010)

That seems like a big undertaking. Careful not to go overboard. These are some of my starting recommendations that I find both awesome and fairly easy to get into.

Sibelius - Violin Concerto ; Symphony 2 ; Wood Nymph

Beethoven - Symphony 5 ; Symphony 9 ; Violin Concerto

Dvorak - Symphony 7 ; Symphony 8 ; Symphony 9 (add in the Cello Concerto for good measure too!)

Tchaikovsky - Symphony 5 ; Violin Concerto ; 1st Piano Concerto

----

Also, you want music that make you feel sad in a 'non-classical' way? This will depress the heck out of you. Pure melancholy.


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

Take first to your hand the universal maestro before whom history was merely preparing the way, and after whom merely struggling to find his ashes: *Beethoven*.

Really you can't have enough but you must have heard some. Symphony 5 is probably the most accessible symphony, so try to see past its overuse and listen to the whole thing. I will go ahead and recommend symphony 9 too because it's so amazing.

The other composer I will recommend is Haydn because no one else will and he's great. Take symphonies 99, 94 and *44* and bask in the glory of the Classical symphony. If you can like chamber music I will go ahead and recommend his op. 33 b minor quartet and perhaps the f minor quartet from the op. 20.

I recommend more Haydn because it's all shorter but take symphony 44 if you only want one work because it's just amazing.

I don't know if Classical music will give you the same feeling that you mention, ever to be honest. It is generally much more positive I think.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Igor Stravinsky: The Rite of Spring, Octet, Requiem Canticles

Ludwig van Beethoven: String Quartet No. 14 in C#-minor Op. 131, Symphony No. 7, Symphony No. 6

Frederic Chopin: Nocturne in D-flat Major Op. 27 No. 2, Etude in E Major Op. 10 No. 3, Polonaise No. 7 in A-flat Major "Heroique"

Claude Debussy: Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, Suite Bergamasque, Arabesque No. 1

Peter Tchaikovsky: Romeo and Juliet Fantasie-Overture, Swan Lake, Francesca da Ramini

Morton Feldman: Rothko Chapel (sorry only for him, I'm not well-versed enough in his work)

Charles Ives: Piano Sonata No. 2 "Concord", The Unanswered Question, Symphony No. 3 "The Camp Meeting"

Alfred Schnittke: Concerto Grosso No. 1, Symphony No. 1, Concerto Grosso No. 4/Symphony No. 5

Frank Zappa: Dupree's Paradise, Joe's Garage, The Black Page No. 1, Peaches en Regalia

John Cage: Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano, Souvenir, The Seasons

Here's a few great ones


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Schoenberg, Webern, Schnittke, Cage, Feldman, Zappa

I must say that I'm glad I didn't come here for advice when I was first discovering Classical Music. :lol:


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Baroque music is not expressive music? I think you should give that Era a chance before considering it non-emotional music. And Corelli's Concerti Grossi Op. 6 is a great place to start.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Schoenberg, Webern, Schnittke, Cage, Feldman, Zappa
> I must say that I'm glad I didn't come here for advice when I was first discovering Classical Music. :lol:


And that supposedly can be described as "classical and romantic era"!


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Going by the 'criteria' of the OP, I would recommend:

- Music of the *'Sturm und Drang' *period (mid 18th century) - Mozart's 25th symphony in G minor, also some of Haydn's symphonies (the 'La Passione' and 'Lamentatione' esp.) and also CPE Bach's Sym. in E minor.

- Music of* Beethoven *as has been recommended - his darkest work I know is the _Coriolan Overture_ - unusually for the period, it ends in gloom and despair (or at least vagueness), no rousing ending here.

- *Berlioz:* _Symphonie Fantastique_ (esp. 2nd and 5th movements), and _La Damnation de Faust _(esp. the scene where Faust is taken to hell). Maybe also _Le Nuits d'ete_.

- Mahler, Bruckner, Shostakovich - matches 'expressive' and 'apocalyptic.'
*Mahler* - _Kindertotenlieder, Sym. #9, Das Liede von Erde_
*Bruckner* - _Symphonies 8 & 9_, maybe also the_ Mass in E minor _(there is doubt in that, I hear that, maybe its doubt in his otherwise rock solid faith in God? I hear this at the end, in the _Agnus Dei_)
*Shostakovich* - many works, the opening of his 10th symphony for me is like a requiem for the victims of Stalinism, the 8th string quartet a work by a composer truly on the brink, and the slow movement and cadenza of the _Cello Concerto #1_ (movements 2 & 3) does not hold back on emotion. Another one is his _Piano Trio #2_.

*Bartok *- String Quartets, esp. 5 & 6. The counterpoint of Bach and Beethoven moved into the modern age. The 4th movement of the 5th quartet speeks to some kind of oppression. Others are_ Divertimento for Strings _and _Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta_.

*Sibelius* -_ Sym.#4._ If this aint depressing, I don't know what is. & with quite memorable melodies, very pared down, like a painting in monochrome. Another one is _Tapiola_, with a hair raising storm sequence. But I rarely listen to these, its too close to the bone, too dark (esp. the 4th).

*
Britten* - _Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge _- looking back to the past, with references to Baroque, the Viennese waltz, folk musics and combining it with the sounds of Modernism. Another one is _Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings_, imaging man's life cycle in song and poetry.

That's just some that came to mind. For 'dark' music, there have been older threads, eg.:
http://www.talkclassical.com/3265-looking-depressive-loud-powerful.html


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Why do people want others to tell them what to listen to? Discover the music for yourself.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Sometimes breadcrumbs are helpful to find your way.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

For music with a kinda GYBE vibe you could try:

Pärt 



Scelsi 



Glass 



Rachmaninov 



Feldmen 



 (mentioned earlier)
Satie 



Respighi 



Sibelius 



Gubaidulina 



Messiaen 




Tone poems in general are what might interest you.


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## samurai (Apr 22, 2011)

In addition to fellow member Sid James' excellent list of suggestions, I would add *Symphonies 1-5* of the great Danish composer Carl Nielsen. For me, they contain all the elements of both ineffable beauty and a yearning kind of sadness.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Philip Glass is emotional now!


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## Clump (Sep 5, 2012)

As well as listening to loads of stuff, I'd recommend watching a few of Leonard Bernstein's Young Peoples' Concerts and Omnibus shows if you're completely new to classical music. They're all on Youtube. "What is Sonata Form" and "What Makes Music Symphonic" are good ones, as well as the Omnibus talks on Bach, opera and modern music.

As well as understanding the music better, you're likely to come away with a big list of things to listen to.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Seconding Clump's suggestion!! The best suggestion in this thread so far.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Schoenberg, Webern, Schnittke, Cage, Feldman, Zappa
> 
> I must say that I'm glad I didn't come here for advice when I was first discovering Classical Music. :lol:


Yeah, then your taste might actually be interesting, god forbid :lol:


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

starthrower said:


> Why do people want others to tell them what to listen to? Discover the music for yourself.


The world of music can be vast and daunting, even when limited to something like classical music, so I think its pretty reasonable to ask others better versed in it for suggestions of things to check out. Its commendable that somebody at least has interest. I tend to try and give diverse suggestions in such cases, so to point them in many possible directions to explore ^^


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

bigshot said:


> And that supposedly can be described as "classical and romantic era"!


The OP asked for very expressive music, and so I suggested very expressive music, many of which have that darker, tragic element the OP seemed interested in hearing. You know you could actually make some suggestions yourself, instead of just trolling this forum.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Baroque can so be emotional! Try Bach's Chaconne from Partita no. 2: 




But Romantic it is: 
Sibelius Symphony no. 2 



Sibelius Violin Concerto: 




Dvorak Cello Concerto: 




Wieniawski Violin Concerto No. 2 : 



Wieniawski Legende: 




That should do for starters.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Why not start, and end, with Wagner?


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Couchie said:


> Why not start, and end, with Wagner?


End as in going back to GSYBE! :lol:


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Haydn - The Creation, Symphony #104, String Quartet op. 76 #3 "Emperor" 

Mozart - Requiem, Symphony #40, Piano Concerto #20 

Beethoven - Symphony #7, Piano Sonata #32, Piano Concerto #4

Schubert - String Quintet, Piano Sonata #21, Winterreise

Chopin - Nocturnes, Etudes

Mendelssohn - Octet, Violin Concerto, Songs Without Words 

Liszt - Piano Sonata, Piano Concertos, Totentanz

Schumann - Fantasy in C, Frauenliebe und Leben, Piano Concerto 

Brahms - German Requiem, Symphony #1, Cello Sonatas 

Tchaikovsky - Piano Concerto #1, Symphony #6, Sleeping Beauty 

Dvorak - Cello Concerto, Symphony #9 

Fauré - Requiem, Piano Quintets

Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto #2, Isle of the Dead, Symphony #2


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## Clump (Sep 5, 2012)

You might like Mahler's ninth symphony

The first movement shares some characteristics with GY!BE


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2012)

peterh said:


> If you could recommend 20 composers to someone who knows nothing about classical music, and recommend 3 works from each (although if it's only some 10 minute thing then I guess 3 or 4 of those could equal 1), what would you recommend? Would like it to be mostly from romantic and classical eras since I like more expressive music.
> 
> I'm a big fan of the more apocalyptic and downbeat songs of Godspeed You! Black Emperor if that helps. For some reason I find that music to be sad in a very unique way that I can't describe. I haven't really heard classical music be "sad" in the same way, it's more sad in a "classical" way. Does anyone understand what i'm saying? It's hard to explain. I would like classical music that gives the same feeling.


You've asked two questions really, which need two different answers. The various recommendations for typical 'greats' (Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn etc) are a good starting point, but I'm not sure how many posters know GSYBE and could therefore recommend something comparable from the classical field. I can't pretend to know either, but a quick check of Youtube suggests that typical Romantic/Classical is _not _what you're looking for.

So, over to those who know about GSYBE _and _classical (quack seems to have some useful ideas).


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## etkearne (Sep 28, 2012)

For your tastes, I would recommend the opposite eras to which you suggested. I would first suggest the early 20th Century Modernists, who stretched tonality to places it has never been heard before (or even since...anywhere OTHER than classical music and the rare jazz or progressive rock appearance) and even broke it down. 

Second, I recommend the Baroque Era, as it is full of strong, clean emotions IMO, and is very moving, BUT also features top notch musical technicality. I would only recommend the Romantic Era third, as it can be rather "cloudy" (not all - but some of the most famous composers were rather ambiguous and cloudy for lack of better words).

As for the Classical Era, you may love it. You may not like it at all. It tends to be one era people don't find out if they like until well into their journey.


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## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)




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## hawk (Oct 1, 2007)




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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

Having just listened to Sleep and The Dead Flag Blues, if I were you, for 'sad', start with...

Mahler's 5th Symphony- slow movement (Adagietto)
Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony - last movement
John Dowland's Lachrymae 
Beethoven's 3rd Symphony -slow movement

take it from there...


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## jdk (Sep 5, 2012)

By your description, Chopin 'Raindrop' first came to my head. Personally, I find it extremely powerful and melancholy. I love the version used in Eternal Sonata.


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

Could also try Schubert's "Death and the Maiden" 




Elgar Cello Concerto:


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Yeah, then your taste might actually be interesting, god forbid:lol:

As opposed to...?


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Schoenberg, Webern, Schnittke, Cage, Feldman, Zappa
> 
> I must say that I'm glad I didn't come here for advice when I was first discovering Classical Music. :lol:


A newbie recommending a newbie.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> End as in going back to GSYBE! :lol:


I don't know what you or the person talking about Wagner means? Could you elaborate lol?


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Wagner is like the teen crush of classical "it's total music man, it's all there, you don't need anything else". Don't worry it's not too contagious, there's plenty of music out there, no need to obsess over a floppy hatted idol.


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

Has anyone made one of these pieces that use never before usages of tones or tones not used in the 12 tone scale (like quarter tones) and made it sound good and consonant? I think that would impress me, using tones in such unique ways and making it sound "correct" and not just using those tones in order to make it dissonant.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

peterh said:


> I don't know what you or the person talking about Wagner means? Could you elaborate lol?


I basically meant that if you start with Wagner, you will probably be turned off with Classical altogether and go back to GSYBE! As I was never fond of Wagner. Mainly because Opera is not my thing. Btw you might like Sibelius's Symphonies.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

quack said:


> Wagner is like the teen crush of classical "it's total music man, it's all there, you don't need anything else". Don't worry it's not too contagious, there's plenty of music out there, no need to obsess over a floppy hatted idol.


Interesting, quack, interesting. Go die.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

peterh said:


> I don't know what you or the person talking about Wagner means? Could you elaborate lol?


Ah, Wagner. Skip Bach through Beethoven (god I wasted *years* on those hacks), and take up Wagner. The only composer.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

peterh said:


> Has anyone made one of these pieces that use never before usages of tones or tones not used in the 12 tone scale (like quarter tones) and made it sound good and consonant? I think that would impress me, using tones in such unique ways and making it sound "correct" and not just using those tones in order to make it dissonant.


People don't just use quarter tones or alternate systems of tuning to make it sound dissonant, its quite easy to do that with just 12 tones. Also, you should try to get out of the mindset of tonal and consonant being "correct" sounding. Dissonance and consonance are just different colors. Neither is superior to the other.


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## Guest (Oct 11, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> Dissonance and consonance are just different colors. Neither is superior to the other.


I think you'll find that grey is definitely superior to black and white!


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> People don't just use quarter tones or alternate systems of tuning to make it sound dissonant, its quite easy to do that with just 12 tones. Also, you should try to get out of the mindset of tonal and consonant being "correct" sounding. Dissonance and consonance are just different colors. Neither is superior to the other.


A perfect example of that is Ligeti. Makes you crave dissonance.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> I basically meant that if you start with Wagner, you will probably be turned off with Classical altogether and go back to GSYBE! As I was never fond of Wagner. Mainly because Opera is not my thing. Btw you might like Sibelius's Symphonies.


Are you not acquainted with the preludes to Die Meistersinger, Tristan, Tannhauser and Lohengrin?
Not a voice to be heard and truly wonderful as stand alone pieces. A very good way to get into Wagner before overcoming your aversion to opera.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

neoshredder said:


> A perfect example of that is Ligeti. Makes you crave dissonance.


For me that would be Ives, Stravinsky, Schnittke and Schoenberg X3


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Petwhac said:


> Are you not acquainted with the preludes to Die Meistersinger, Tristan, Tannhauser and Lohengrin?
> Not a voice to be heard and truly wonderful as stand alone pieces. A very good way to get into Wagner before overcoming your aversion to opera.


I've got Wagner's Orchestral Works. And that would probably be the best way to go if you want to try Wagner. Still so much I'd rather listen to.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> For me that would be Ives, Stravinsky, Schnittke and Schoenberg X3


Schnittke is awesome. Way underrated.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Opera is a tremendously rich medium. If you write off opera, you're missing out on more than you can imagine. It's like saying, "I don't like orchestral music."


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

bigshot said:


> Opera is a tremendously rich medium. If you write off opera, you're missing out on more than you can imagine. It's like saying, "I don't like orchestral music."


Orchestral Music>>>Opera


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

No.

Opera is the nexus point between music, drama, architecture, dance and art. There is as wide a range of styles as there is in orchestral music, from Gluck to Wagner and beyond. There is an even greater legacy of artists involved in opera, from singers to conductors to production designers. If you can't appreciate the sound of a trained voice, that isn't opera's fault. It's your loss.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I once expected opera to be some horrible boring thing, hard to get into and hard to get through. But the truth is, it's a populist genre, like musicals or soap operas. It's not hard to appreciate at all. A lot of operas, really, you could say they're soap operas with great music (and, usually, bad acting). If you can spare some interest in the sets and costume, there's even more there for you.

A few operas are genuinely good dramas as well. Verdi's _Otello_ is a great example. Now you might say, of course it's great, he was working with Shakespeare. Thomas' _Hamlet_ will help to dismiss that attitude! But Verdi really does do a service to the original drama. Of course I'll never get James Morris' Iago out of my mind.... Mozart's operas (except perhaps _The Magic Flute_) are good dramas, _Carmen_ is a good drama....

To me, the sole problem with opera is cost. It ain't cheap. But as an art form and especially musically, opera has won me over entirely.


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## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

bigshot said:


> No.
> 
> Opera is the nexus point between music, drama, architecture, dance and art. There is as wide a range of styles as there is in orchestral music, from Gluck to Wagner and beyond. There is an even greater legacy of artists involved in opera, from singers to conductors to production designers. If you can't appreciate the sound of a trained voice, that isn't opera's fault. It's your loss.


There are plenty who don't like the excessive vibrato and loud voice of Opera singers. But why am I explaining myself why I don't like certain types of sounds. I can like and not like what I want. Heck I could put on some Marilyn Manson right now. I listen what I enjoy and not what is considered great. I'll admit Opera takes quite a talent though.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Everyone is permitted to like what they like and dislike whatever... but when you make broad statements such as "Orchestral music is better than Opera" based upon your dislike... and quite likely inexperience with opera, I think most people would question the merits of such an opinion as much as they might question the merits of the opinion of a certain member here who recently made a recommendation for the best recording of a certain Bruckner symphony... in spite of the fact that he had admittedly never listened to anything by Bruckner until just a couple weeks ago. :lol:

Everyone is entitled to their opinions... but some opinions are better than others.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinions... but some opinions are better than others.


Only a true master in classical music enjoys both opera and instrumental music. Right?


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

science said:


> A lot of operas, really, you could say they're soap operas...


That is precisely what still turns me off of most opera other than Wagner. Most of them seem to be just shallow love stories. No epicness, no destinies of the world being decided...


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## peterh (Mar 10, 2012)

BurningDesire said:


> People don't just use quarter tones or alternate systems of tuning to make it sound dissonant, its quite easy to do that with just 12 tones. Also, you should try to get out of the mindset of tonal and consonant being "correct" sounding. Dissonance and consonance are just different colors. Neither is superior to the other.


I know but has anyone made one like that where an average listener would think it was a normal consonant 12 piece?


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

neoshredder said:


> I listen what I enjoy and not what is considered great.


I listen to greatness and try to appreciate it. So far, I've been very successful.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

neoshredder said:


> There are plenty who don't like the excessive vibrato and loud voice of Opera singers. But why am I explaining myself why I don't like certain types of sounds. I can like and not like what I want. Heck I could put on some Marilyn Manson right now. I listen what I enjoy and not what is considered great. I'll admit Opera takes quite a talent though.


You are right to insist you can like and dislike whatever you want. Many people share your view of opera and many are ardent lovers of opera. There are many people who go to opera and talk through the overture or like to be seen jumping to their feet and shouting "bravo" before the last note has had chance to decay. Thus demonstrating their shallowness. It is better to be honest and have an opinion that is sincere.
I would though, recommend getting a DVD (with subtitles) of perhaps Cosi Fan Tutte or Die Meistersinger which are more comedic and just watch it as a story. You may find you get used to the style of singing and get lost in the plot. 
I don't like excessive vibrato either!
There is a lot of great music in opera and at the end of the day music is what opera is all about.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Operatic vocals are very carefully crafted, and there are specific techniques eing employed. I have a great book called Opera on Record and it has very specific analysis of various singers' styles and techniques. I need to dig that book out and study it some more. I don't know enough about vocal technique.


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## AlexD (Nov 6, 2011)

If you are starting out in classical

John Williams - Certainly the Superman and Star Wars soundtracks. 

Holst - The Planets

Mahler 2nd Symphony and 9th

Beethoven 3rd, 5th & 9th

Wagner - there are good discs of overtures and finales. Deutches Grammophon has a good collection called Panorama. It will give you an overview at least.

Rossini - the overtures


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

AlexD said:


> If you are starting out in classical
> 
> John Williams - Certainly the Superman and Star Wars


That's kind of like saying to someone interested in French cuisine, "You really ought to try Fench fries and French toast!"


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