# Is Benjamin Britten A Great Opera Composer?



## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Britten wrote a lot of operas for a 20th century composer. The plots of many are quite similar in many ways. Do you think BB was a great opera composer?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I think he was alright but not outstanding. He did try hard to blend atonal elements in most of his operas.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

I'd say "a fine one, but not outstanding". _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ and _Billy Budd _are both excellent - strong stories and characters (thanks Bill and Herman), good music (the ending of _Dream_ is lovely). Not a fan of _Turn of the Screw_, and three of us walked out of _Peter Grimes_ after the first act.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Similar plots, AM? I can't agree with that unless you're touching on the 'reluctant outsider in an established situation' scenario which even then scarcely represents BB's operatic output as a whole. For me BB's (and his librettists) sources for operatic material were not just judicious but also diverse, and this brought out the best of his dramatic talent and as a body of work I would argue that no composer has contributed more to 20th century opera than him.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> Similar plots, AM? I can't agree with that unless you're touching on the 'reluctant outsider in an established situation' scenario which even then scarcely represents BB's operatic output as a whole. For me BB's (and his librettists) sources for operatic material were not just judicious but also diverse, and this brought out the best of his dramatic talent and as a body of work I would argue that no composer has contributed more to 20th century opera than him.


Strauss? Puccini?


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

NickFuller said:


> Strauss? Puccini?


Yes - the timeline is somewhat different (obviously in Puccini's case) but as a composer for the theatre in terms of creative achievement I really believe Britten is their equal, however different the music may be.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

NickFuller said:


> Strauss? Puccini?


I was going to say the same thing - with Leoš Janáček - but it seemed a little petty to me as they all first composed opera in the 19th century. They all composed in the 20th century, but are they 20th-century composers?

I have no problem calling Britten one of the most important 20th-century opera composers.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

The jury is still out, so unsure for me.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

elgars ghost said:


> Similar plots, AM? I can't agree with that unless you're touching on the 'reluctant outsider in an established situation' scenario which even then scarcely represents BB's operatic output as a whole. For me BB's (and his librettists) sources for operatic material were not just judicious but also diverse, and this brought out the best of his dramatic talent and as a body of work I would argue that no composer has contributed more to 20th century opera than him.


What he said!

N.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

A fantastic opera composer, one of my favorites.

I love operas like "The Turn of the Screw", "Peter Grimes", "The Rape of Lucretia" or "Death in Venice", but all of his production is always very interesting. As it's his collaboration with Myfanwy Piper.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

This thread about a post WW2 composer who has more operas in the general repertoire than any other, just points out the absurdity of trying to define greatness with respect to any musician ... or other artist.


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> Yes - the timeline is somewhat different (obviously in Puccini's case) but as a composer for the theatre in terms of creative achievement I really believe Britten is their equal, however different the music may be.


There's a difference between "equal" and "no composer has contributed more". (I don't just split hairs, I split rabbits too - but PETA doesn't approve.) I'd agree, though, that Britten is one of the twentieth century's best opera composers.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

NickFuller said:


> I don't just split hairs, I split rabbits too - but PETA doesn't approve.)


That must be a hare-raising experience!


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I have Peter Grimes, The Turn Of The Screw, and Albert Herring. The music sounds brilliant to my ears. I'm looking forward to the others.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

A Midsummer Night's Dream and Gloriana are two of my favourites.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I saw Peter Grimes in Oslo and was really impressed. My best opera experience along with Rossini's L'Italiana in Algeri


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Is Benjamin Britten a great opera composer. No.

WAS Benjamin Britten a great opera composer? You bet your bump stocked rifle he was!!!!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Must confess that outside of Peter grimes Britten's operas have never done much for me., It was as if having reached his peak he declined.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

DavidA said:


> Must confess that outside of Peter grimes Britten's operas have never done much for me., It was as if having reached his peak he declined.


Very good DavidA. You do have a wicked sense of humour. You forgot to add -Now Mozart, there was a great opera composer.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> no composer has contributed more to 20th century opera than him.


Shostakovich? Prokofiev? Stravinsky?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> as a composer for the theatre in terms of creative achievement I really believe Britten is their equal


not even in the same league with them, his being pushed on us by the authorities, but let's not be easily lead.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

I cannot say if he was a good opera composer but I do like some of his music but not the opera.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Yes, a number of excellent works, e.g. Peter Grimes, Billy Budd, and Death in Venice. One of the best opera composers of the 20th century, certainly if we look beyond those who started composing in the 19th.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> not even in the same league with them, his being pushed on us by the authorities, but let's not be easily lead.


I knew it all along! The Authorities' master plan of total world domination hinges on making us like Benjamin Britten.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

amfortas said:


> The Authorities' master plan of total world domination hinges on making us like Benjamin Britten.


it isn't much about world domination but rather shameless advertising.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> Shostakovich? Prokofiev? Stravinsky?


Prokofiev- 9 operas, 3 infrequently performed
Stravinsky - 7 operas, 2 infrequently performed
Shostakovich - 7 operas, 3 infrequently performed

Britten -16 operas, all performed pretty regularly. 
I would hazard that they were not in the same league as Britten for either quantity or quality!


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> Shostakovich? Prokofiev? Stravinsky?


All excellent composers for the stage but I stand by what I said.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> not even in the same league with them, his being pushed on us by the authorities, but let's not be easily lead.


I'm not even going to attempt to comprehend what you mean by that!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> Prokofiev- 9 operas, 3 infrequently performed
> Stravinsky - 7 operas, 2 infrequently performed
> Shostakovich - 7 operas, 3 infrequently performed


that is not true, the ones i showed are performed frequently enough and they are masterpieces, unlike brittens.



Barbebleu said:


> Britten -16 operas, all performed pretty regularly.


all sixteen? where did you get that statistic from? your local box office and media ads? how about the rest of the world and facts?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> I'm not even going to attempt to comprehend what you mean by that!


the British authorities & there British rulers are behind this shameless promotion of Britten and Williams.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> the British authorities & there British rulers are behind this shameless promotion of Britten and Williams.


Williams??? Whazzup with that? Eyebrows rise in Hollywood...


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Alternative facts, alternative reality, from the home of dezinformatsiya -


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Williams??? Whazzup with that? Eyebrows rise in Hollywood...


what hollywood? Vaughan Williams - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Vaughan_Williams


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Becca said:


> Alternative facts, alternative reality, from the home of dezinformatsiya -


you mean The Ministry Of Truth, that is the BBC, of course?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> what hollywood? Vaughan Williams - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Vaughan_Williams


Thought you meant John Williams! Ralph's surname is Vaughan Williams, a double-barreled name with no hyphen.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Thought you meant John Williams!


oh, that would be insane...


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Wouldn't it be strange, indeed strange, if John Williams were remembered long after Shostakovich is forgotten...


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> the British authorities & there British rulers are behind this shameless promotion of Britten and Williams.


Whaho there mate you are on dangerous ground if you start on RVW...My mistake I now see you meant someone called John Williams...:cheers:


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

KenOC said:


> Wouldn't it be strange, indeed strange, if John Williams were remembered long after Shostakovich is forgotten...


impossible, for masterpieces are not forgotten, so neither their authors, only mediocrities pass into oblivion.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> impossible, for masterpieces are not forgotten, so neither their authors, only mediocrities pass into oblivion.


Well yeah, like I said. :lol:


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> the British authorities & there British rulers are behind this shameless promotion of Britten and Williams.


Of course. How _gauche_ of me not to realise that.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> Of course. How _gauche_ of me not to realise that.


ah that would be too strong a word... better call it naive.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Zhdanov said:


> the British authorities & there British rulers are behind this shameless promotion of Britten and Williams.


Their music speaks for itself. I have never seen the music of any composer, let alone Britten or Vaughan Williams, being promoted, shamelessly or otherwise, by the British government.


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Barbebleu said:


> Their music speaks for itself. I have never seen the music of any composer, let alone Britten or Vaughan Williams, being promoted, shamelessly or otherwise, by the British government.


I agree, but maybe Britten didn't even need the approbation of the British government when Shostakovich himself rated him so highly!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> I have never seen the music of any composer, let alone Britten or Vaughan Williams, being promoted, shamelessly or otherwise, by the British government.


i didn't mean brit govt, they're merely puppets, there's other authorities and rulers that push stuff.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

NickFuller said:


> I'd say "a fine one, but not outstanding". _A Midsummer Night's Dream_ and _Billy Budd _are both excellent - strong stories and characters (thanks Bill and Herman), good music (the ending of _Dream_ is lovely). Not a fan of _Turn of the Screw_, and three of us walked out of _Peter Grimes_ after the first act.


What was your problem with Grimes?

Billy Budd IMO has too many longueurs (like when the captain is discussing the state of the world with the crew) and some cringe making moments (Squeak, Starry Starry Vere . . .) It's good when the gay S and M element is brought out (Beau Travail) -- Claggart can be presented as a very disturbing character, full of suppressed desire for Budd. How much of this is in Melville I do not know.

I've seen Dream once, a good production, I thought it was OK. Screw is the one that interests me the most because it's so very scary, I don't know a creepier opera. Quint is more blatantly disturbing than Claggart, and it's so strange how you don't know what's real and what's illusion in the opera. And I like Grimes too, just because Vickers did it so well. The theme of abusing children, boys, is a brave one for him to have taken on, and a good one IMO.

These things make Britten a bolder, better, opera composer than Puccini or Prokofiev or Shostakovich or Strauss after Electra I think. I am keen on Puccini though, both for the music and for the dramaturgy. It's just that at the level of ideas and of character I don't think he's so interesting, apart from Pinkerton.

The other thing I love is Curlew River. The chamber operas are an interesting area to explore.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

elgars ghost said:


> maybe Britten didn't even need the approbation of the British government when Shostakovich himself rated him so highly!


leave alone the government, they are innocent scapegoats and red herring.

as for shosty, he was just being polite, don't take him seriously.


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## Dan Ante (May 4, 2016)

Zhdanov said:


> impossible, for masterpieces are not forgotten, so neither their authors, only mediocrities pass into oblivion.


J S Bach the mediocrity was forgotten until Felix rediscovered him.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Mandryka said:


> Screw is the one that interests me the most because it's so very scary, I don't know a creepier opera. Quint is more blatantly disturbing than Claggart, and it's so strange how you don't know what's real and what's illusion in the opera. And I like Grimes too, just because Vickers did it so well. The theme of abusing children, boys, is a brave one for him to have taken on, and a good one IMO.
> 
> These things make Britten a bolder, better, opera composer


no, they don't, and not a composer; a librettist maybe, but not composer... besides, there ain't nothing special about scaring, disturbing or dabbling in social agendas; even more so whilst you write mediocre music.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Fortunately Britten did not write mediocre music nor did he write his own libretti.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

elgars ghost said:


> I agree, but maybe Britten didn't even need the approbation of the British government when Shostakovich himself rated him so highly!


You took the mouth right out of my words.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> as for shosty, he was just being polite, don't take him seriously.


Polite? Britten and Shostakovich were good friends, and greatly admired each other's work.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I've ordered the Decca Complete Opera box, so I'll be listening to them all.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

amfortas said:


> Britten and Shostakovich were good friends, and greatly admired each other's work.


like i said, yes, polite... and you don't know Russians; we never speak ill of our colleagues skill regardless and, on contrary, we try be modest when compare ourselves with you. Western folks take this at face value, but in fact its merely politeness; not to be used as a proof or argument for anything. Russians deem it unsuitable to show 'better than you' or 'equal to you' attitude; here you have to humiliate yourself a little to be in good manners.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

Zhdanov said:


> like i said, yes, polite... and you don't know Russians; we never speak ill of our colleagues skill regardless and, on contrary, we try be modest when compare ourselves with you. Western folks take this at face value, but in fact its merely politeness; not to be used as a proof or argument for anything. Russians deem it unsuitable to show 'better than you' or 'equal to you' attitude; here you have to humiliate yourself a little to be in good manners.


That would explain the modesty you've shown in comparing your Russian composers to Britten.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

amfortas said:


> That would explain the modesty you've shown in comparing your Russian composers to Britten.


not that, as you might see i know you Westerners and how seriously you take advertising & pushing your own stuff at the expense of the others... i only want justice to be done; and it is also we Russians have changed a lot since the Iron Curtain fell and then we faced the West & its realities.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> no, they don't, and not a composer; a librettist maybe, but not composer... besides, there ain't nothing special about scaring, disturbing or dabbling in social agendas; even more so whilst you write mediocre music.


You may be right, I'm not really a very musical person and I certainly don't know enough about music to comment. I know I enjoy quite a lot of Britten, given a good production and singers, more so probably than much of Strauss (I'm thinking of Ariadne, Arabella, Capricccio, Rosenkavalier) and certainly more so than Prokofiev (War and Peace, The Gambler) or Shostakovich (Lady MacBeth) in the opera house. But this is just saying something about me and my poor judgement about music. I also have a certain love for Pears and Vickers, I like their way of delivering the text, which could well go some way to explaining why I admire the Britten operas so much.


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