# The Oud



## oistrach13

to all you mandolin and guitar fans, tomorrow I will put on a post with samples about the grandfather of both the mandolin and guitar (the father being the europian lute which comes from aloud, which is al-Oud, basically meaning "the Oud").

its an old (I mean really old) unfretted instrument with a short neck and a pear shaped body. five double courses of strings tuned in fourths (and an occasional single bass string for solo work), and sounds very much different from either guitar or lute (also because of the strange music, quartertones  )

more info and sound samples tomorrow (I hope)


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## 009

Interesting! Yipee! Time to learn new stuffs again! :lol:



> *(also because of the strange music, quartertones )*


Oh! Don't remind me about it! :angry:


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## oistrach13

I'ld love to have a discussion about quartertones, maybe I should look into that some day, but right now, I should put on that post, I decided to make it shorter by just putting in links.

this is an excellent website for history, and pics,

parfitt

this website oud page on the other hand, is particularly rich in sound samples, the home page includes a few sound files played by the author of the website, I can't say I approve of his improvisation style, or his tone (not resonant enough for me), but it should give you an idea, a tip for western listeners, always go for anything with the title "nahawand" or "nihawand" because this mode does not include any quartertones and should not offend western ears (basically, C-minor  )

I also particularly recommend the playing of this guy,
http://www.oud.gr/riyad_alsumbati.htm
his tone is remarkable (although it doesn't show very well due to the age of the recording). his fingers are really agile, and he is a composer, so his improvisation is particularly powerful (to my ears that is, god help your ears :blink: ). I also draw attention to his plectrum technique, he is loud, but never harsh.

at the end of this page, there is the same piece of improvisation (in realplayer format), but with an explanation of what he does (musically that is), with links to the various modes he uses (god help you). http://www.maqamworld.com/modulation.html

another improvisation in the "Kurd" mode (same as g-minor, but goes from D to D)
horrible sound, but should be helpful http://www.zeryab.com/taksim/riyadh/Taksim_Kurd.mp3

also, some videos (in real video format), only touch the first video and the one before the end, the rest suck.
http://www.mikeouds.com/video/

one last video http://www.orientaltunes.com/realvideo/Adib-ISDN.rm
not exactly the best music, but the guy is improvising after all. (warning, he switches into alot of modes, this will sound extremely strange to you)
that's all I can think of now, any questions are more than welcome


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## Daniel

That was a really nice exploration, Oistrach. Thanks a lot! 

About quarter tones... In western music it is really :angry: , but in arabic music it is a bit like Vibrato or it is used in scales and it is a walk through note, not a equal treated or harmony tone.


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## oistrach13

since this website is about classical music, it is really strange how the subject of arabic music popped up,

ah yes, quartertones, well in arabic music, it is not an ornament, it is an important note, like any other note, but only specific quartertones are used, and in specific situations governed by the mode you are playing in, for example, as one of the oud clips I mentioned demonstrates, the bayati mode has the following notes:

D, E-quarterflat, F, G (dominant :blink: ), A, B-flat, C, D

as you might notice, the upper tetrachord (G,A,B-flat,C), shows the beginning of a minor scale, while the lower tetrachord has the intervals 3/4, 3/4, 1

this is the bayati tetrachord, which is why the mode is called the bayati mode, the point of this digression is, the arabs don't just put in a quartertone where they want, they put the whole tetrachord (bayati, saba, siga, rast, etc), which just happens to include a quartertone, this way, it doesn't sound out of place (like in western music, where it is actually quite out of place). this system of modes took thousands of years to develop, with contributions from the persian empire, the ottoman empire, india, china, etc..., which means that this isn't some stupid composer trying to get smart (or what they call "revolutionary") and shuving in some quarter tone here and there, which comprimises the whole principle of tonality, whithout which, western music wouldn't exist.

western classical music doesn't contain, use, or tolerate microtones, and any western composer has to realize this before he starts breaking down tonality into what he thinks it should be. if quartertones sound any good in western music, bach would have used them.

as for arabic music, I say without regret, that it is not a walk-through note, it is an integral part of arabic tonality, as it is in persia, turky (they use twice as much of them as we do), and I think india.

hasn't anyone ever wondered why the arabic singer on world idol sounded out of tune?


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## oistrach13

did I mention that E-quarterflat is not fixed? :blink: 

it moves between each mode and the other, depending on what sounds good (to us arabs anyway).


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## Daniel

> *western classical music doesn't contain, use, or tolerate microtones*


They do.  unfortunetly


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## 009

I really don't like quarter tones.
But I have to say, I'll gladly prefer them to the 12 tone system. :lol: 
I have a whole list of different scales...maybe should start a new thread on this. Interesting!


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## oistrach13

ah, well, then it wouldn't be "western _classical_ music" anymore would it


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## oistrach13

what kind of scales? :huh: I am interested  

I looooooooove quartertones, but not in western music <_<


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## 009

I have a whole list and lecture notes on this 'boogy' topic-scales.
1. Modes
2. Tones
3. Well -tempered
4. Non-tempered
5. 12 tone
6. Pentatonic
7. Quarter tones
8. jazz scales
and so much more. But I would need to type them down. I don't have a webpage to load em...so it'll take some time. I think it'll be really good referance for non music majors.


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## Daniel

> *Non-tempered*


That is an interesting topic! So many other solution to manage the problem with frequency: Werckmeister, Kirnberger, pure major, pure minor.....

Myself i prefer the Kirnberger: it has so individual life in it - especially in modulations - and touches you more than Werckmeister. 
The first time i heard pure major, i only was amazed what major can sound!

On my composing (electric piano but not keyboard) I can put in Kirnberger, Werckmeister and so on... Nice to play around with it :lol:


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## oistrach13

nobody is iterested in old instruments <_< 

everybody went off talking about things I don't understand. give me a funky arabic mode anytime, but don't start talking about werckmeister and pure majors :blink: 


anybody who wants any info about arabic scales, I can answer. they're really very simple, just put replace this tetrachord with that one...


talking about majors, there is something called an arabic major :lol:
take B-flat major for example, tune the D a bit down, and there you have it  
a less glaringly and rudely "happy" major than an arab would be comfortable with.

an arab would also notice that in B-flat major, the notes from the D to the G constitute the beginning of the Phrygian mode , this tetrachord is called Kurd, and would be used when you feel like modulating, that is, by adding another tetrachord starting from G, that is, G, A, B-flat, C, which is the beginning of C minor, continue that with a slightly flat (very slightly) D at the top, and you get the kurd mode, going from D to D, voila, you have modulated  

as I said, take a terachord from here, put another here...


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## baroque flute

I will take a look at those links, oistrach13!! I love learning about old instruments. I took a course on that several years ago, but I've forgotten most of it. <_< I want to get hold of those books again, they were so good!


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## oistrach13

thanks


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## Daniel

It is rather fascinating, exploring a new cultural and musical system, Oistrach!


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## oistrach13

thanks


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## baroque flute

Hmmm... Oistrach13, I was just reading your post again on quarter tones in Arabic music. I don't think I understood it very well, but I am interested. What quarter tones does it use in the scale, like in the key of B-flat? Or is that a very dumb question?


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## oistrach13

don't worry, it isn't a dumb question at all.

I can understand your line of thought.

about B-flat major, we tend to modify it a bit, by flattening the D a bit (not to the degree of a quartertone though), the major becomes a bit more "mellow". I am not very clear on this issue either, considering I am not trained in these things. (so far, my only real instrument is recorder, which isn't very helpful with microtonal graduations, the violin on the other hand  ), this falls under different tunings more than it does under quartertones.

normal quartertones however, are used quite often, and are variable.

to explain this you have to see how the arabic modal system works, you have a mode which is called maqam. this is formed of sets of notes called ajnas.

a jins (singular of ajnas) can be a trichord, tetrachord, or pentachord.

the way it works is, a mode is made up of supremeposed blocks, these so called ajnas.

for example, the intervals of the first four notes of any minor constitute a recognized tetrachord in arabic music, and are used in the construction of a mode.

the effect this has on quartertones is that each jins has a specific set of intervals, for example, Hijaz corresponds to 0.5, 1.5, 0.5 (no quartertones there unless you're turkish), in actual playing however, the middle interval is shrunk a bit, so it doesn't seem so awkward.

to take on a different jins (getting complicated)

bayati tetrachord has the following (theoretical intervals): 0.75,0.75, 1

this is usually: D, E-quarterflat, F, G

what occurs is, the intervals are a bit more subtle, bayati is not really 0.75,0.75,1

it can be for example, 0.65, 0.85, 1

which basically means that the E-quarterflat moved a bit to the left (closer to the D)

what happens is, each jins that contains a quartertone has with it the specific intervals that govern the position of the quartertone, all of which are learned by ear, and governed by ear (the most important thing is for the note to sound proper to the listener).


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## krishna

I had an Oud a number of years back. It was lots of fun but the pegs were ill fitting and I could'nt get it to stay in tune. It was a middle student model and I hope to one day Buy it back from the current owner. I would be able to fix it now that I have so much violin repair under my belt. I also (about 10 years ago) took the fingerboard off an unused guitar and had a quartertone fingerboard made for it.Talk about a study in futile! From start to final finish (2 false starts), it took about a year,and when done I was only able to play it for 15 minits at a time because it was TOO frustrating! There were quite a few profesional guitarists in my hometown who tryed it ,but only one who was able to actually play it. About 6 months ago I decided I needed another guitar and took the fingerbard back off. I am waiting untill I am able to set up my instrument repair shop in this new town and will then make a new one...


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## baroque flute

Instrument repair...mmm...good for you!! B) I can't repair instruments, but I hope to learn some things about how eventually.


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## oistrach13

what exactly did the quartertone figerboard you installed look like? 

did it have quartertone frets like a buzuq or a tanbour? (movable)
or did it have no frets at all like an oud? (or a violin)

both systems have respective advantages, but they shouldn't be as frustrating as you say  

in first position, oud is relatively easy to play because it's usually tuned in fourths, which means regular intervals (unlike a guitar's which is helpful for harmonic uses)

once the owner of that oud taught me the main scale, I could play a simple tune that doesn't contain flats within one day, although what limited me, or took so much time wasn't the oud, it was my ability to read music (although horrible now, it was much more horrible back then). flats are also easy, instead of using only index and ring finger, just use the middle finger  . although I was a bit out of tune <_< particularly my E :angry: , it comes with practice, and I don't have any oud to practice with <_<


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## krishna

Imagine a guitar fingerboard with double the # of frets. Each one in between the ones that were there before.....Try to play a G chord...you have to skip certain frets, but if you do it right, it sounds like a regular guitar...a D chord is weird also... bar chords are insane... This from a guy who only spent maybe 3 or 4 hours on it in total.... Kerry


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## oistrach13

ahh, I see

a guitar neck is too short for this sort of thing :lol:

besides, music that requires quartertones doesn't usually require any chords.

perhaps you should get your self a buzuq or a tanbour  

if you look at them you will see that they have looong necks


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## baroque flute

Does the oud have a longer or shorter neck than the guitar?


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## oistrach13

shorter, but not a problem (no frets)


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## oistrach13

by the way, his has just occured to me.

if you really want to play quartertones using frets, the best thing is to get a neck with movable frets. this way, you don't have to add a fret for quartertone, you could just add a move one of the frets to accomodate the scale you're using (you do intend on using a specific scale?)

examples of such instruments have been attached, they show the buzuq (used mainly by gypsies), the persian tanbur (tear-drop body), and the turkish tanbur (roughly circular body). the last is my favourite, it has a really weird sound that moves between round and metallic, but the strangest thing is the "drift away" syndrome. if you strum a single note, you can hear that note floating away, if that makes any sense.


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## oistrach13

by the way, if you want to hear the playing of the last guy (turkish), that can be arranged  (you need to have real player though <_< )

as the picture suggests, it wouldn't be a modern recording.

meanwhile, here is a modern recording of someone (no idea who) http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~cerkut/tanbur/piece2.aif


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## baroque flute

Interesting...Does the oud have twelve strings??? I enjoyed seeing the pictures. I couldn't hear the link, though, because my computer says it take a newer version of quick time than I have. I'll have to update it, and then I can listen. I think I know what you mean about a note floating away.


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## oistrach13

for instrumental work, like the picture I have, it has eleven, grouped into 5 double courses and one single bass string. when it is used as an accompaniment for singing, the bass string is not necessary, and often unpresent.

that means that unfortunately, the oud's normal range is not that much, mainly because 90% of arabic music uses only two octaves, which falls right into the middle of the oud's range.

the number of strings though is not fixed, I know a few performars who use 7 or 8 strings (not counting double courses), and can reach a range of just under 4 octaves


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## oistrach13

I have calculated that on a normal oud, you can get about to 3 octaves if you are a normal musician  . if you are capable on going to higher positions, that could expand a little, although these are just my calculations, and I need to ask about this


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## oistrach13

not much point going higher, no resonance <_< , perhaps adding more strings is the solution, although the pegbox and the neck would have to be rebuilt <_< .

I think that's a job for mr krishna


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## oistrach13

got a nice link, for those who have real player,

this is an excellent semi-improvisation, they didn't say which mode it was, sounds rather like minor to me. (if you have perfect pitch, I'ld appreciate the tip)
http://www.zeryab.com/taksim/fareed/kelmetetab.ram

trying to find something in mp3 <_< 
even the clarinet improvisations are in real format :angry:, only the vocal ones and the violin bits are in mp3.

ah well, this is an iraqi player, improvising in a turkish mode, using a very high tuning.

http://Zeryab.com/taksim/others/Taksim_Muh...unir_Bashir.mp3

hope you like it.


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## Danielghofrani

Very nice! in fact I am a Persian Classical musician and I play in quarter tone scales and modes. 
my instrument is the Santur.
I really like playing quarter tones but unfortunately since the Santur is a diatonic insturment, I am limited to a certain key (at least in each octave, I cant have B and Bb in the same octave) which takes away options. 

the Oud is actually an arabic name. the Persian name for it is Barbat (although it is popularized as Oud even in Iran these days.)


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## emiellucifuge

Funny... 'Oud' is Dutch for 'old'


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