# Long or repetitive?



## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

Which overtures, cadenzas, individual movements, etc. do you consider too long and/or repetitive? For me...

Cadenzas:
Bach's 5th Brandenberg
Beethoven's 1st PC
Sauret for the Paganini 1st VC

Rossini's Thieving Magpie overture is a bit repetitive.

The first movement of the Kreutzer Sonata could be shorter.

And yes, the big one, BOLERO, which I actually like.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Finale of Schubert 9. A disappointing, overambitious ending to a symphony that I otherwise enjoy.
Cadenzas in Shostakovich 1st Violin and Cello Concerti
Wagner - Parsifal prelude 
Most Bruckner finales 
Mahler 5 and 7 finales
Reich - Music for 18 Musicians. I would like it if it were 10 minutes or so, but if I was forced to listen to it straight through for over an hour I don’t know how I would stay sane.


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## Aurelian (Sep 9, 2011)

I checked the score to the Schubert. There is one repeat, and 1153 measures of 2/4. 

Wagner was not efficient in expressing himself. I have wondered if he kept the local manuscript paper printer in business.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Two pieces that I basically like sometimes seem to have too much repetition of themes: R-K's _Sheherezade_ and Mussorgsky's _Pictures at an Exhibition_. I think there's an overexposure factor here.

As for the keyboard cadenza at the end of the first movement of Brandenburg No. 5, I get a real kick out of it and like to use it as a measure of harpsichordists' virtuosity and creativity.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Finale of Schubert 9. A disappointing, overambitious ending to a symphony that I otherwise enjoy.


Good citation - this one is difficult to pull off - try Toscanini/NBC, or Reiner/CSO - these guys really drive it home....keep it moving, with lots of forward thrust....
I listened to a YouTube clip the other day - Sawallisch/VPO - gawd, awful....so slow...it went on forever....soporific.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

The 5th Brandenburg cadenza is pure awesomeness, not least because it invented the cadenza! I always get a kick out of it when I imagine Bach and the royal ensemble performing it in the court, then all the instruments slowly dying away as Bach jams out on that harpsichord all by himself while the aristocrats stare in mild amusement, annoyance, and bewilderment:lol:


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

Too long ... the end of Mahler's 2nd symphony, pretty much all of the 3rd symphony, and parts of almost all the rest. They often come to natural points where they can conclude, then go on further.

Too repetitive ... nothing beats the Mozart Gran Partita with its 32 repeats throughout the score.

I never enjoyed the Bach Goldberg variations because of all the repeats ... until I found a version for 4 woodwinds that was shorn of repeats. It's over in 38 minutes.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

larold said:


> Too long ... the end of Mahler's 2nd symphony, pretty much all of the 3rd symphony, and parts of almost all the rest. They often come to natural points where they can conclude, then go on further.


I agree - some great music spoilt by this imho.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Since the greatest moment of pleasure is often in that final gasp of anticipation, before the perfect expectation of imagination is rendered in a more tangible and disappointing form of reality, the question becomes how to extend that moment, or if it is even possible to do so.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Aurelian said:


> Which overtures, cadenzas, individual movements, etc. do you consider too long and/or repetitive? For me...
> 
> Cadenzas:
> Bach's 5th Brandenberg


Give me a break. The cadenza in the fifth Brandenburg is glorious. It's also a joy to play.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

consuono said:


> Give me a break. The cadenza in the fifth Brandenburg is glorious. It's also a joy to play.


First and possibly greatest keyboard candenza! What is wrong with people, is nothing sacred?


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

Couchie said:


> First and possibly greatest keyboard candenza! What is wrong with people, is nothing sacred?


:guitar: It's easy to see without looking too far/ That not much Is really sacred.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

No one mentioned the first movement of Shostakovich's Leningrad symphony yet. I like the movement, but surely he could have cut off the last several minutes, at least.


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## ORigel (May 7, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Good citation - this one is difficult to pull off - try Toscanini/NBC, or Reiner/CSO - these guys really drive it home....keep it moving, with lots of forward thrust....
> I listened to a YouTube clip the other day - Sawallisch/VPO - gawd, awful....so slow...it went on forever....soporific.


I like the finale, although it is the weakest movement of the symphony.


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Reich - Music for 18 Musicians.


There are people who consider that work one of the best of the 20th century. I find that utterly incomprehensible. I bought it about 25 years ago based on rave reviews. I gave it three tries, then thew away the cd. To each his own, of course, but I think it is one of the most overrated works I've ever heard.


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Bluecrab said:


> There are people who consider that work one of the best of the 20th century. I find that utterly incomprehensible. I bought it about 25 years ago based on rave reviews. I gave it three tries, then thew away the cd. To each his own, of course, but I think it is one of the most overrated works I've ever heard.


Like I said, I find it interesting for the first 5-10 minutes. But what's the point of the length? Does it actually "develop" in any meaningful way? After a while it stops sounding like music - more like a machine.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Like I said, I find it interesting for the first 5-10 minutes. But what's the point of the length? Does it actually "develop" in any meaningful way? After a while it stops sounding like music - more like a machine.


Reich was very clear about what he was trying to explore

http://www.bussigel.com/systemsforplay/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Reich_Gradual-Process.pdf

But my main reason for posting is that there's a recording which seems to me to completely blow away all the rest I've heard, this


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Like I said, I find it interesting for the first 5-10 minutes. But what's the point of the length? Does it actually "develop" in any meaningful way? After a while it stops sounding like music - more like a machine.


Yes it does develop in a meaningful way. It's not just the same thing over and over. Have you heard it all?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

flamencosketches said:


> Yes it does develop in a meaningful way. It's not just the same thing over and over. Have you heard it all?


No, I have not. Maybe sometime I should try to do so.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

ORigel said:


> I like the finale, although it is the weakest movement of the symphony.


I like the finale, too...if it's done right....it does get repetitious, tho...the conductor has a to keep driving it along...the repeated half notes over the endless string figures can become very deadly...


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> No, I have not. Maybe sometime I should try to do so.


It develops more slowly than, say, a Beethoven symphony, but there are many melodic and harmonic twists and turns all throughout. It moves from one place to another and another. Well worth a listen in full. It's a work I've loved for years and years, long before I ever got into classical music otherwise.


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Couchie said:


> First and possibly greatest keyboard candenza! What is wrong with people, is nothing sacred?


The keyboard cadenza in B'burg #5 is awesome!! It's a highlight.


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## flamencosketches (Jan 4, 2019)

Mandryka said:


> Reich was very clear about what he was trying to explore
> 
> http://www.bussigel.com/systemsforplay/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Reich_Gradual-Process.pdf
> 
> ...


Looks interesting, I'll have to check it out.


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## consuono (Mar 27, 2020)

ORigel said:


> No one mentioned the first movement of Shostakovich's Leningrad symphony yet. I like the movement, but surely he could have cut off the last several minutes, at least.


Probably my least favorite of the Shostakovich symphonies. The last 10 minutes with all that brass is just about all I want to hear of that one. Shostakovich could write some great finales.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Aurelian said:


> The first movement of the Kreutzer Sonata could be shorter.
> 
> .


What do you think of the first movement of the Waldstein?


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

deleted...……………………..


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Aurelian said:


> I checked the score to the Schubert. There is one repeat, and 1153 measures of 2/4.
> 
> *Wagner was not efficient in expressing himself.* I have wondered if he kept the local manuscript paper printer in business.


Impressive how our perception of music can be so different, opposite in this case I must say. I'm yet to find something as passionate and intensely expressive as _Tristan und Isolde_. For me, Wagner is one of the most expressive composers of all.


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## Ethereality (Apr 6, 2019)

Length is typically worse than repetition, since repetition is a key feature in music and one can just write more pieces instead of longer ones.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

_"repetition is what gives form to music"_






I find the 1st movements of Waldstein, Kreutzer ok. The 1st movement of Eroica symphony, for example, is also long, but full of youthful life and energy from start to finish. I don't really have much of a problem with Baroque, Classical pieces with repeat signs either. Sometimes it feels weird if certain repeat signs are not taken:







tdc said:


> The Waldstein first movement for me goes from 'this is awesome' to '*shut up already*'.
> However a lot of Beethoven just goes directly into the '*shut up already*' phase, so I guess I actually do like some aspects of the Waldstein.
> Sorry Beethoven fans, I know he was a very great composer, for some reason I just don't enjoy him.


_"shut up already"._ This is priceless, ROFL.

Anyway, I'm bothered more by pieces with ostinato-like bass patterns that "stick out" constantly, like Schubert's Erlkonig, Chopin's Berceuse, Prelude No.24 in D minor. 
I think "content" also matters just as much as the length and frequency of the repetition:

*[ 3:00 ]*


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

^^ You somehow quote my post over an hour after I deleted it? Wow.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

tdc said:


> ^^ You somehow quote my post over an hour after I deleted it? Wow.


"The Waldstein first movement for me goes from 'this is awesome' to 'shut up already'.
However a lot of Beethoven just goes directly into the 'shut up already' phase, so I guess I actually do like some aspects of the Waldstein.
Sorry Beethoven fans, I know he was a very great composer, for some reason I just don't enjoy him."

I'm a Beethoven fan but no offence was taken...on the contrary, it was very funny.


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