# Documentary Film on Beethoven's NInth



## following-the-ninth (Oct 12, 2006)

Dear List Members,

I want to bring your attention the documentary on Beethoven's Ninth that I am working on (called Following The Ninth: In The Footsteps of Beethoven's Final Symphony), and ask for your suggestions. I've shot close to 50 hours of tape, but the film is really just beginning, thus I am looking for more stories about the Ninth. You can read about the project at www.followingtheninth.com. What I'm hoping to find here in this discussion forum are new stories that I might follow, develop, as the film proceeds. As of today, I will be filming in Japan, where the Ninth (Daiku) is performed by hundreds of variously sized orchestras, sometimes with choruses of 5000 people or more. I will also be going to Chile and other countries in South America, where a version of the "Ode to Joy" was sung as a song of resistance and hope by those living under military dictatorships.

I would also like to have some of your filmed stories and reflections on the Ninth on my website. That could be arranged in various ways, to be determined if you have an interest. I'm trying to bring the power and passion of one of the greatest works of art ever done to a broader public, and the best way to do that, I think, is through people's stories, stories from those who are deeply in love with Beethoven's music. Please write if you have any questions.

Kerry Candaele
Venice, CA


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

Very interesting. But I'm not sure I understand what kind of "stories" you want. Are you looking for historical anecdotes or today's view of the symphony? There's just so much to research abou the Ninth: contemporary views when it premiered, composers throughout the 19th century who embraced it, stories of Liszt's piano transcription of the ninth, the impact in the salons when Chopin and Liszt played a piano duo of it, the egotistical Wagner who "edited" the masterpiece, the musical perfection of the thing, the corruption it went through when it was played by Nazi's in WWII. I mean, are you interested in the influence it had on Brahms or the influence it has on John Doe next door?

There's literally hundreds and hundreds of diversions to take with the Ninth; entire books of musical analysis have been written and there are extensive letters from composers like Berlioz, Schumann, and Wagner who had much to say about it. Are you looking for this kind of stuff or "stories" from just average people?

Thanks for sharing this, though; I definitely look forward to seeing the completed project, but you'll have to clarify a bit more on what you mean by "[our] filmed stories."


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## Mr Salek (Apr 11, 2006)

Sounds good. Will it be shown on television anywhere? Programs like it have been a great success in the UK.


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## following-the-ninth (Oct 12, 2006)

Thank you for the response. If you check the website at www.followingtheninth.com you will get a sense of what kinds of stories I am looking for. Since I am familiar with a good deal of the historical literature on the Ninth, it's influence on other composers, and how the Ninth has been appropriated by various states and ideologies since it's first performance (see Buch's A Political History of The Ninth, most importantly), I am more interested in the Ninth and it's impact on people today, although some history and anecdotes from the past will no doubt work its way into the film. For example, I will be in Japan in November filming the Ninth (Daiku) as it is performed all over Japan during the winter months, attempting to understand what this symphony means to Japanese people who, on occasion, perform it with ten thousand-member choruses. But I'm aslo looking for the personal stories of what the Ninth means to individuals across the globe. I've heard from a person whose son was born to the music of the Ninth, and from another person whose grandfather was lowered into his grave accompanied by the fourth movement. Ideally, I would like to discover that the Ninth is embraced and performed in not so common instrumental configurations, say, on indigenous instruments in the mountains of Peru, or on the plains of Morroco. I'm searching, and hoping list members might contribute their own stories, or might refer me to others. I'll be traveling the world in the next year, and would certainly be willing to interview individuals close to wherever I will be staying. Another possibility for those who are willing, is to have someone, a friend or family member do the interview on a mini-cam and send it on. As of today, I will be in Japan in November and December, and in Chile in February. I'm not sure where after that, but I'm willing and able to go where the story takes me. Thanks again for the inquiry, and please don't hesitate to engage with the project if you feel comfortable with what I'm doing.

Sincerely,
Kerry candaele
Venice, California


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## linz (Oct 5, 2006)

I believe as an after thought to the documentary you might wish to give a breif explanation on 'the ninth's' impact on other composers. Beethoven was more influencial to Bruckner than even Wagner, as is obvious by the movement form of his symphonies. Wagner felt the need to imposed a massive spectical prehaps solely based on his assumption that Beethoven had already mounted most obstacles. Stravinsky thought the final movement of 'the ninth' was too long, but then again he usually tried to debase Germanic music every chance he had.


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## following-the-ninth (Oct 12, 2006)

Dear Linz,

I'm trying to stay away from a history lesson approach to the Ninth, as I picture my audience as not a collection of experts, or even people who pay much attention to the classical repetoire. I'm trying to reach out beyond the fairly narrow stratum of people who know concert music, thus the film is, at its most basic level, a story about passion and beauty, about making sense of our lives through the most profound artistic confrontations. That is it, really, and the Ninth is a vehicle for that exploration. I wonder though, did Stravinsky think the fourth movment merely too long, or too chaotic, unwieldy, uneven, ultimately musically senseless, or all of the above? Was it really a matter of a kind of national chauvanism?


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Before I comment on the quote below, let me first say bravo on this project and I look forward to seeing the result.

And now:



following-the-ninth said:


> I picture my audience as not a collection of experts, or even people who pay much attention to the classical repetoire. I'm trying to reach out beyond the fairly narrow stratum of people who know concert music, thus the film is, at its most basic level, a story about passion and beauty, about making sense of our lives through the most profound artistic confrontations.


This approach opens a door to a dilemma that many orchestra marketing people and music directors face. No matter how you "wrap" a concert, no matter what "extra value" or "bonuses" you try to present your potential audience, the end result is always the same: an orchestra plays the music and an audience listens to it. There is absolutely NO WAY to get around that fact in our tradition, and it is precisely this that is the very core of what turns people away! There are simply some people that do not like classical symphonic music and never will.

In trying to use Beethoven's 9th as a key to open a door to a story about passion and beauty, you _may_ be (on a philosophical level) relegating the most important thing to a secondary position: the experience of listening to the music that is Beethoven's 9th. There is no way to get around that. And no matter what you _relate_ that experience to, no matter what meanings and associations you create between Beethoven's 9th and other things in art and life, you always begin and end with the experience of listening to the music... and some people just don't like the music.

My concern therefore lies in the statement that you (I'm paraphrasing) "Picture your audience as people who don't necessarily pay much attention to the classical repertoire." If your goal is to "win these people over", then you risk ignoring and perhaps even alienting the _thousands and thousands_ of people who do pay attention to the classical repertoire and to Beethoven's 9th specifically.

My suggestion is to make your documentary for people who love classical music, not for those that don't.
______________________________________
Edit

_After watching the preview on your site, I'm a little concerned. Giving one bad conductor a platform to state that Beethoven's 9th expresses the fact that "there is only insecurity but also hope", and that it contains everything, from galactic clusters to sub-atomic particles, is highly irresponsible. It is one man's opinion, one man's _*insignificant and inconsequential unauthentic opinion*_ in that it has nothing to do with what Beethoven, who knew nothing of Galactic clusters and sub-atomic particles, meant.

Beethoven was:
a) writing a piece of music
b) making a statement about the inherent brotherhood between all human beings

The segment available for viewing borders on Kitsch._


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## following-the-ninth (Oct 12, 2006)

Dear Kurkikohtaus,

I tried to send a lengthy reply to your post, but it didn't go through. I am in Japan and going out to film, so my reply will have to come later. I find most of what you have written, well, not very interesting, and the tone of your response a bit Olympian. To be expected from certain quarters in the classical world form those hoping to police the boundaries of both 'bad" and good conductors, and what we are allowed to think and imagine and hear in a piece of music. The hundreds of people from around the world who have responded positively to www.followingtheninth.com , including some of our best Beethoven scholars, provides hope that it might be only you who will feel alienated from a film such as this. But the details will have to wait.

Sincerely,

kerry candaele


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Olympian or not, you risk two things with this approach:

1) seriously alienating people (from your production) who know and understand the music
2) creating unreachable expectations for people who will go and hear it for the first time

In terms of "what we are allowed to think and imagine"... yes, we can think and imagine whatever we want with respect to Beethoven's 9th, but we should be allowed to think and imagine these things based on a _hearing of the work_ in the authentic context of a _live performance_. To be "guided" this way by the fantasmagorical musings of "a conductor" is precisely what leads to the above stated points 1 and 2.

Perhaps the snipet available for viewing on your site will be balanced by other points of view by other conductors and performers. This would be a welcome feature.


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

*following-the-ninth*

I am entering this discussion late because I'm afraid to say that I have only just spotted it. Here are my comments.

I'm a classical music lover and it so happens that my favourite piece is Beethoven's 9th. For a normal TV presentation it would be perfectly OK to have an introduction giving some brief facts about this magnificent symphony. However, it looks as though you are planning a completely different type of presentation based on all manner of anecdotes relating to how folk around the world react to it, e.g. individuals being buried to the 4th movement, and suchlike.

I'd think again if I were you. Classical music fans will only want the music, and they will want a good orchestra and choir if you expect them to listen to it. Non-musical fans who actually bother to watch it will probably lose interest after about 5 minutes if it continues in the same fashion as in the preview.

To illustrate the last point, a few years ago there was a major prime-time TV presentation of Mozart's Requiem set in the context of a Mass conducted by the Cardinal of Austria. The Requiem was therefore interspersed with the ceremony and liturgy of the Mass. When I got to my office the next day I asked all my colleagues whether they saw this programme. The answer I got was that 90% said "you're joking". The other 10% said they enjoyed the "Mozart bits" but had a hard time editing out all the other "boring rubbish" (sic) with their VCR remote controls!

Finally, if the documentary is re-cast as one focusing on the symphony itself - perhaps after a suitable introduction about its history etc - I would be inclined to cut out all that nonsense from the conductor waffling on about the symphony containing "_everything from galactic clusters to sub-atomic particles_". Musical comment doesn't get much more inane than this. It's laugable. Who is he anyway? BTW the choir sounded awful too.

Topaz


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

*Following-the-ninth*, although there are at least 2 sceptics here, I would like to stress my original thought before all the criticism came, which was *bravo on this project*. If nothing else, you are nurturing discussion about a great piece of music, which is 100% positive.


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

*Follow-the-ninth:* I suppose I agree broadly with the previous poster. There is obviously nothing wrong with the basic idea of promoting a great piece of music, and I can't think of a better piece than the Ninth. My point is simply that I can see the documentary being a disappointment if the final version is merely a larger-scale version of the preview. If it is the latter, I doubt that it will appeal to many classical fans, and I think non-classical folk may soon get bored merely with a long list of anecdotes and pseudo-musical appreciation. Note my remarks about Mozart's Requiem which, from my experience, went down like a lead weight with the attempt to "add value" to it (albeit in a completely different way from your work on the Ninth).

Topaz


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

Topaz said:


> I think non-classical folk may soon get bored merely with a long list of anecdotes and *pseudo-musical appreciation*.


That's exactly the terminology I was looking for. Well said.


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## following-the-ninth (Oct 12, 2006)

*Following the Ninth*

It is both pleasant surprise and a comforting experience to be taken to task by those other than my political oponents for once, as it reminds me that in every hermetic community there are those who carry the flag for conformity and shortsightedness. My colleagues on this list, Topaz and Kurkikotaus--the first who speaks for the classical music community and the latter who speaks for humanity as a whole--have provided an opening for my enjoyment of polemical thrust and parry, and, at the same moment allows me the pleasure of examining the isolated, somewhat stodgy and increasingly narrow corner of the classical music demi-monde.

First, some basics. I am not making a film for television with tid bits of historical information followed up by a concert film, a task that strikes me as tedious in the extreme. Those kinds of projects offer the worst of all possible worlds: five or six repetive angles on players and a concentration on a (more often than not) god-like conductor. Add to this the fact that the music doesn't translate well through televisions and you have a recipie for the kind of "film-making" that should more accurately be called a commercial, or some derivation of a vanity novel. I'm dealing here, instead, with cinema, a by now long artistic tradition that has a language, form, and vigorously contested aesthetic tradition of its own.

To make an even simpler point that seems to have escaped T and K, I'm trying to tell a compelling story using the art of cinema. For some film makers the ultimate story could be about poodles, for others pied pipers, about war and retribution Homer, but the common ground for so many arts is a story well-told. The Ninth will be my story, although not in the some potted plot where one covers the deafness and sturm and drang of the romantic genius. That story will be told, once again, with the release next week of Copying Beethoven, starring Ed Harris as the latest incarnation of the hair tugging, dog kicking, and key pounding "beast," LVB.

Should a film-maker like myself decide a priori that it is only the concert film of some illustrious orchestra that could be appreciated by both fans of classical music and those who know next to nothing? Should a film about Picasso's art be made only for the Picasso fan/expert for fear of alienating those who might, just might mind you, rather watch Picasso painting rather than, say, approaching the power of his art through various means including commentary of scholars and various "ordinary" voices? Should we consider any past or future cinematic rendering of Beethoven's life just not worthy of the man or the music because the music is not the complete work, and not experienced within a concert setting?

How conservative, stultifying even, then, to be faced with the concerns of T and K about how the form for presenting Beethoven (namely, only the concert and full symphony) will alienate the classical music audience, and at equal turns baffle the uninitiated.

And then there is K insisting, I suppose, that a monopoly on the Ninth's meaning rests with those who can speak only words he considers "significant", "consequential", and "authentic" . And just what do these portentious words mean, anyway? Has the "Lord" decided who speaks in an authentic, significant, and, oh my, consequential voice about Beethoven's works? Oddly enough, the revolutionary impulses of Beethoven and his time is a direct negation of all such posturing and demanding of credentials to be shown before entering the gates, before being allowed for the muzzle to be removed. "Who is this guy?" "What gives him the right to think about the nature of the universe when listening to the Ninth?" He has no name, he has no right, his passport has not been stamped by the appropriate authorities. How boring, how boorish, how much more lame can a reaction be to a three minute clip about a long documentary?

This is the mentality of the barracks, the "few good men" school of musical analysis. The sign at the door reads, "good conductors comments only," all others remain mute. Having done my academic training in history, I remember when the academic orthodoxy included as sources for historical interpretation only voices that "mattered", political elites for the most part, while bit players--women, the working class, minorities--had to wait until the 70s to have thier stories written by the likes of E.P. Thompson and Christopher Hill in England, and Eugene Genovese and many others in the American context.

Let me be more concrete. I have just spent ten days traveling throughout Japan, talking with conductors, fans, singers, experts on Beethoven and those who know little about the man and his music. Some members of this list, provided they pay attention to events and goings on outside their narrow balliwicks, may know that Japan is a country that has embraced the Ninth (Daiku) like no other country in the world. Every December the Ninth is performed hundreds of times, from elementary schools to the best Tokyo Symphony Orchestras, most with amateur choreses, some with professional singers. Occassionally a performance of the Ninth will feature 5,000 singers. The Daiku is a cultural phenomenon in Japan that is mysterious, wonderful, "kitchy", glorious, low business and high art. It is, in other words, a great story that has piqued the interest of both the historian and anthropologist in me. Everyone I have spoken to has found what one scholar calls this "institutionalized hysteria", the Ninth in Japan, worthy of cinematic explication. But not T and K. They would prefer their oatmeal prepared in the traditional way, suitable for eating at the bloated sofa.

T and K can be assured that the level of playing and singing in most performances in Japan does not match their notion of what the Ninth should be, as they seemingly posess a platonic ideal of the Ninth, from which any deviation is to be put down.

Left aside, of course, is the fact that the meaning of the Ninth, and what constitutes a great performance, has been debated since day one in 1824. But kurkikotaus assures us (and what a stretch) that the fourth movement is a "statement about brotherhood." I respectfully request that he inform us of the definitive meaning of the first 60 minutes, while of course allowing for the fact that writers as diverse as Romain Rolland to Maynard Solomon, from Sebastian Buch to David Levy have found themselves in various places on that map.

As for George Methew, the man in the short clip at www.followingtheninth.com (and what a lowbrow insult to ask "who is he?", as if to say that if he is not "someone" he has no right to speak about the Ninth) is not insisting that LVB was contemplating gallactic clusters when writhing the Ninth, but rather that he, George Methew, subjectively, intellectually, emotionally, was drawn to those ideas/feelings when listening to the grandeur of the Ninth. How crude, how vacuous, how revolting and revealing of a pedant's peculiarities to place one's bets with rigidity, declaring some thoughts about the music off limits.

This is provincialism at its worst, the kind of thing one would expect from those T and K imagine as thier oposites, those who must take orders from the higher ranks and be informed of what their opinions should be before speaking out. Indeed, this is thinking and feeling via the office hallway, where one finds out how one feels by checking the conversation around the water cooler. "Did you watch the concert on T.V. last night? No? Ah, smart man, neither did I. I didn't see it, but it was rubbish, wasn't it? We concur, therefore we are."

I have absolutely no concern about alienating the classical music audience, fans or professionals. List members will, I hope, enjoy the story I tell. But my concerns are not of this or that market niche, this or that herd behavior, but rather about artistic matters. How can I make a wonderful film about the Ninth? How can I tell a great story that anyone with half a wit would want to see? Topaz says "think again" about what I'm doing? Well what is it that I am doing? And could he please provide advice about how to make a film? Should I merely hire the Vienna Philharmonic to perform the Ninth and get a good nights sleep rather than busying myself with traveling to four or more continents to pick up "anecdotes"?

Finally, what is most dissappionting in both K and T's comments is the sad fact that they both think that experiencing the beauty and depth of the Ninth can only be done with the greatest of performers. By way of analogy, I have tasted $500 bottles of Bourdeux that, were indeed fine wines. But I have also had $10 bottles of wine that meant more to me because of the people with whom I shared it. This summer, for example, I heard a mediocre orchestra and a mediocre chorus perform the Ninth in a 150 year-old barn in the middle of Maine, conducted by 30 young maestros, all taking their two minutes on the podium. It was one of the most inspiring Ninths I have every heard. I filmed it with three cameras. The concert was grand because the people, the place, the spirit of connection and the love for the music was grand.

If you come to see the film you will see it and hear it for yourselves, althought I suspect that T and K will miss the point, enraptured as they are with the status, the hierarchies, the credentials and honorariums of who is in and who is out of the increasingly greying club. To lose an audience such as this, to alienate them in fact, would not only be a pleasure but also an artistic obligation.

The film will either find its audience or not. That is the nature of making art of any kind. I prefer to move on, as life is shorter now than when I started this missive.

Please check in at www.followingtheninth.com in a few days for the latest film from Japan, from Tokyo to Kyoto and beyond.

cheers,

Kerry Candaele (From Tokyo)
Venice, CA


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## Hexameron (Oct 7, 2006)

Kerry - I think "T and K" have valid points and their concerns/statements are quite substantial. I think you have to reach out to both the extreme classical music nuts, the casual TV-watching folk and everyone in between. I don't think you can appeal to the classical music aficionados, though, with a primary focus on the contemporary and worldly views of the Ninth, at least if that's the major concentration of your film. And you'll befuddle and perhaps bore the less-musically knowledgeable of us with only historical facts. But don't you think you can combine the two and stitch them together into a smooth tapestry? Can't you chronologically, like a History Channel show, explain Beethoven's efforts with the ninth, its premiere, the musical impact, and then sprinkle in quotes from composers/artists in the 19th century and onwards? Then, you can achieve what you want with the "stories" of today by injecting, as the "last half" of the film, today's views of the Ninth from people in Israel, Japan, Russia, America etc.

With all of your research into the Ninth, it seems like it would be a disservice to leave out some important and highly interesting "historical anecdotes" in favor of contemporary ones. People actually _like_ the history behind a monumental work of art. Would balancing it out still accomplish your objective? We actually don't have something like this in the media of documentary: a history of the Ninth from the time of its conception, through the 19th century, and right up to today. In my opinion, the impact of the Ninth on Joe Hunter in Arizona and Mr. Yamasaki in Kyoto is only more effective when you also describe what the great Hector Berlioz thought about it. This demonstrates its universal power and its ability to touch all of us, genius or not.


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## Topaz (Oct 25, 2006)

*Kerry*

I am afraid that two misunderstandings crept into my assessment of your venture. I had assumed you are preparing a documentary for TV, whereas I see you are working on a bigger scale production for a cinema audience. There is a big difference, as I will not need to explain. The other misunderstanding is that I thought the documentary was going to be a rendition of the symphony with a number of musically serious anecdotal inserts at various points during that rendition. I have just checked back at your two original posts and this interpretation seems reasonable based on what you said. The preview as well seems consistent with this interpretation, as the orchestra and choir are seen practising and various audience shots are shown.

Instead of this, I now see that your documentary is no such thing at all, if I have understood your last post. Its primary focus will be the impact of the symphony on ordinary peoples' lives around the world, primarily Japan, i.e. how they have adopted in into their culture, what effect it has on their viewpoints etc. There will be no systematic rendition of the symphony either in parts or as a whole.

This is obviously very different from what I had assumed. I hope you might at least begin to see why I was expressing the views I did, given my understanding of the documentary. I really could not see a typical TV audience reacting favourably to what I thought you were planning. If your documentary had been along the lines I had assumed then I stick by those views, namely that it would likely fail to satisfy any part of the viewing spectrum.

Given your different aims, I can see that it matters far less which orchestra you use for the main musical inserts. The conductor and orchestra do not need to be household names, and the choir does not need have any famous singers. You could indeed base it all on a decent amateurish performance by a bunch of Japanese school kids. I can also see why you do not want any historical anecdotes or aspects at all, least of all the views of Berlioz or Liszt or Brahms or Klemperer or Queen Victoria or Sir Winston Churchill. I can see why you believe such views would have absolutely no relevance to your film. All you need is a wide selection of current anecdotes from "Jo-public" around the world.

The next issue is whether there will be much of a market for this kind of product you actually intend. I do not know. I am not interested in giving you my detailed thoughts, because I can see you are not, and never have been, interested in views about the basic structure of your documentary. All you are really looking for is a supply of further anecdotal evidence from a different cross section of the public. With no disrespect intended, I know that it is not the kind of cinema film I would wish to see. I am simply not interested in that kind of thing.

What I would watch is a TV documentary based on a separation of the two components: i.e. a complete uninterrupted performance of the symphony by a good orchestra, preceded by about 20 minutes of intelligent, historical and current perspectives on the symphony by the great and the good, focusing on its musical qualities and its influence on other composers. Indeed, if it were done very well, I would greatly value a DVD of such a documentary. I hope that does not sound too elitist, but remember you are tapping opinion here from a selection of classical music enthusiasts. Those who have actually responded are, it seems, Beethoven fans and we take our Beethoven seriously! Why don't you consider an additional documentary based on the thoughts expressed here? For the future maybe.

Topaz


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