# Bruckner's 'mature' symphonies - a question about the 4th finale



## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

I saw Daniel Barenboim's DVD set from 4 to 9 is referred to as Bruckner's 'mature' symphonies. Now, I would like to learn, from a musicological standpoint, how is the line 'mature' drawn?

I have heard that the 5th was the first time Bruckner finally got the finale right. (Having something to do with his grasp of the form.) This implies at some level the 4th's final movement was deficient and could have been better in some way. To my uneducated ears, the 4th sounds awesome, and I had no way to tell.

In fact, even Symphony No.1 sounds totally 'mature' to me.

Brahms also had symphonies with 3 themes in a sonata-form movement, but that can still be easily followed because the tonality is very clear. But Bruckner... each theme ventures into such remote keys, right in the exposition, that I failed to follow the sonata structure any more. Even Mahler would have been easier! The classical premise is that you do for example in a major key a I-V and then you venture to remote keys in the development and then come back I-I and then do a Beethovenian 2nd development/coda that theatens to de-establish the tonic that is so hardly won-back but in the end the tonic prevails victoriously. I never managed to follow that structure with Bruckner (maybe I did, on a subconscious level, because Wagner/Bruckner are tonal music after all, that conveys tonality in a different way).

So back to my question, what was the structural deficiency of the 4th that made people think it is less mature than it should?


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Straight back with a question: which version of the Finale do you mean? There are three, from 1874, 1878, and 1880. The 1878 one seems to have ended up fully on the scrapheap, it's referred to as the Volksfest Finale. Tintner recorded it as a separate entity, a supplement to his "mainstream" Fourth, and it's included in a recording by Gerd Schaller too.

The 1880 version is the "standard" one, if there is such a thing as far as Bruckner is concerned.....


----------



## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

I have never heard the other two than the "standard" 1880, but you have just aroused my curiosity. Perhaps I will get the Simone Young which as a set is very inexpensive without the SACDs.


----------



## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

You'll like Simone Young's Bruckner, she's immensely reliable, with a really good sense of structure, and flow, and certainly not lacking in celestial serenity.

However, her Fourth, the original version, will be an eye opener! The original Finale is very different, and if that's not enough, the third movement is totally different!! I prefer the finalized layout of this Symphony, I'll be honest, but the 1874 version is well worth experiencing.

Incidentally, if you are interested in the recorded history of various Bruckner Symphonies and their seemingly infinite versions and editions, have a look at this website. It'll either clarify things or make it all even more confusing!!!

https://www.abruckner.com/discography/

I was not aware of any recording of the 1878 version, and this site confirms it has not been recorded as yet....

...the Volksfest Finale from that has been recorded, maybe you'll get a copy of Tintner's Symphony 00 on Naxos, which has it as a fill-up?

I suspect all these different versions of a finale in this Symphony goes some way towards answering your original question? Took him a while before getting it "right", that's for sure!!


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

As an amateur listener, I also agree that there isn't really a big divide starting from the 4th Symphony.

BTW, the 3rd Symphony in its earliest, original version is more expansive and "mature"-sounding than the later versions, IMO. 

Inbal also recorded the early versions of Anton symphonies, the 3rd being a particularly impressive recording.


----------



## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

for me, "mature" Bruckner starts with Sym #3....the finales of Syms 3 and 4 are excellent, and imo, superior to the rather sprawly, disjointed finale of #5...i admit, tho, that I've never really connected with Bruckner 5 as a whole....


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Some conductors don't get the 5th going or point sufficiently to its architecture, IMO. For example, the final chords should be final, not a bit sloppy. One among those that succeeds in this is Barenboim/teldec.


----------



## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

One of the many things I still don't get about the 5th's finale is when the 'Dresden Amen chorale' butts in, is that considered the end of exposition or the beginning of development? Wikipedia says the former but I pondered and reflected and couldn't grasp why it wasn't the latter.


----------



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

cyberstudio said:


> I have never heard the other two than the "standard" 1880, but you have just aroused my curiosity. Perhaps I will get the Simone Young which as a set is very inexpensive without the SACDs.


Another vote for Simone Young. Superb set.


----------



## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

What is everyone's opinion on Gerd Schaller? Another specialist in early Bruckner, in addition to 2 completions of the 9th.


----------



## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Seems to be rather slender, classicist performances, from what I've heard.


----------



## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

joen_cph said:


> Seems to be rather slender, classicist performances, from what I've heard.


I'm a convert to Gerd Schaller's Bruckner 9.  Like you said, slender and classicist.


----------



## cyberstudio (Mar 31, 2019)

With eager anticipation my Simone Young box arrived. As if to 'test' her I started with the 5th. Oh boy! What a Scherzo! Thank you for your recommendations. In the finale she has this ecstasy reminiscent of Jochum, only in infinitely better sound quality. I only wished the symphony opens with the same sureness as it ends. (The opening is perfectly crafted but does not feel free and relaxed.) I paid a grand total of CAD37 (around USD28). When I was young I could only buy 2 CDs at this price. I am in only to hear early Bruckner but the box has already exceeded my expectations and has set a new standard of how far my dollars go.


----------



## Aries (Nov 29, 2012)

Some chronology:

1863 - Symphony No. 00
1866 - Symphony No. 1
1869 - Symphony No. 0
1872 - Symphony No. 2
1873 - Symphony No. 3
1874 - Symphony No. 4
1876 - Symphony No. 5
1877 - Symphony No. 2 - 2nd version
1878 - Symphony No. 3 - 2nd version
1878 - Symphony No. 4 - 2nd version
1878 - Symphony No. 5 - some changes
1880 - Symphony No. 4 - 3rd version
1881 - Symphony No. 6
1885 - Symphony No. 7
1887 - Symphony No. 8
1888 - Symphony No. 4 - 4th version
1889 - Symphony No. 3 - 3rd version
1890 - Symphony No. 8 - 2nd version
1891 - Symphony No. 1 - 2nd version
1896 - Symphony No. 9

Overall there is a steady progress in his style that matches well with the year numbers imo. If there is a symphony that is on the edge between his early and his mature style it is the 2nd.


----------

