# Plagerism or coincidence



## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

Have you ever noticed how alot of music sounds alike? (That was my Andy Rooney imitation, for those who know the reference) I was listening tyo the radio a while back. They played a piece by Grieg that I was not familiar with but the melody was a dead ringer for "Yankee doodle" The piece was called "in Autumn" I think. In Huindemiths "Mathis der Mahler" synphony, there is what sounds for all the world like the Star Trek trumpet theme. Thene there is the falling triad that opens "The Star Spangled Banner", "Dixie" and "Jesus Christ Superstar". While on the subject of Lloyd-Webber, "I don't know how to love him" sounds suspiciously like the second movement from the Mendlessohn violin concerto while "The Music of the Night" starts out like "Come to me, bend to me" from "Brigadoon". Even Shostakovich does it in the finale to the 5tyh synphony. The main theme opens like "How Dry I Am" but in a minor key. 

How many other are floating around out there? Why does it happen? I'm pretty sure Shostakovich never heard How dry I am. Do you have any others? 

What say you? (That was my Viggo Mortensen/Aragorn imitation)


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

"We fight!"

Anyway, there is only so many note combinations and rhythms out there, so some things are bound to sound alike, especially when a melody is based on a triad like one of the ones you mention. I suspect some are plagiarism, some coincidence; I doubt the Star Trek theme tune is a deliberate rip-off for example.

I think sometimes a composer is 'inspired' by other pieces, but the imitation is so close that it is, to put it bluntly, a rip-off.

Someone as familiar with Star Wars as I am will only be able to listen to Mars with something of a smile. As much as I like Star Wars and John Williams, it is practically lifted from _The Planets_ into a galaxy far far away...

As for Andrew Lloyd-Webber, my tutor said of his Requiem that he knew three composers who had written it. None of them were Lloyd-Webber.

Sometimes, however, works can be directly inspired by other pieces, to the extent that the composer has deliberately copied and altered the original, and you would never be able to tell in a million years. The opening of the allegro of the first movement of Schubert's 9th, for example, is deliberately copied from _Notte E Giorno Faticar_ from Don Giovanni (the first scene where the singing starts).


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

"The Music of the Night" bears a striking resemblance to Puccini's "Quello che tacete" from La fanciulla del West.






What about "Marche et cortège de Bacchus" from Sylvia by Delibes sounding a lot like the Knight Rider theme?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Ramako said:


> Anyway, there is only so many note combinations and rhythms out there, so some things are bound to sound alike, especially when a melody is based on a triad like one of the ones you mention. I suspect some are plagiarism, some coincidence; I doubt the Star Trek theme tune is a deliberate rip-off for example.


The portion of the Star Trek theme in question is probably the rising sequence of fourths. This is something, like a falling triad, that cannot be owned by anyone. In any event, if there was a classical inspiration, it was much more likely to be the first movement of Mahler's 7th rather than Hindemith or Schoenberg (whose Chamber Symphony No. 1 is filled with quartal themes and harmonies).


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

Ramako said:


> Anyway, there is only so many note combinations and rhythms out there, so some things are bound to sound alike, especially when a melody is based on a triad like one of the ones you mention. I suspect some are plagiarism, some coincidence; I doubt the Star Trek theme tune is a deliberate rip-off for example.
> 
> I think sometimes a composer is 'inspired' by other pieces, but the imitation is so close that it is, to put it bluntly, a rip-off.


That is exactly what I was about to say. If you look at the sheer quantity of music out there, it's pretty obvious that you're going to have some overlap. Honestly I'm surprised that there isn't more than we see. I think that in most cases it is not intentional, it's just coincidence...two people both independently come to a good, yet similar, melody and stick with it. However there are always the few nefarious cases where someone will blatantly copy the works of someone else. I like to believe that those are in the vast minority though.

Then there is also the case of subconscious plagiarism, where you plagiarize without realizing it. Say you heard a piece of music when you were 10 years old, really enjoyed it but hadn't heard it since. Then, 20 years later, you start writing a new song, and you end up basically writing the melody from that other song note for note. Consciously you feel as though your work is completely original, but in reality you remembered that other song in the back of your mind without realizing it. I've seen a couple cases of this happening in the media in recent years.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Stargazer said:


> That is exactly what I was about to say. If you look at the sheer quantity of music out there, it's pretty obvious that you're going to have some overlap. Honestly I'm surprised that there isn't more than we see. I think that in most cases it is not intentional, it's just coincidence...two people both independently come to a good, yet similar, melody and stick with it. However there are always the few nefarious cases where someone will blatantly copy the works of someone else. I like to believe that those are in the vast minority though.


With movie scores, composers are often asked to imitate things the director thinks fit, whether they are classical pieces or the composer's own past works. Sometimes they can successfully break away from their inspiration, but given the short period of time allotted to film composers, they often end up sounding like an imitation.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Quote from wikipedia (also easily found on various news websites):
_"Quello che taceta," bears a strong resemblance to a similar phrase in the Phantom's song, "Music of the Night," in Lloyd Webber's 1986 musical The Phantom of the Opera. Following the musical's success, the Puccini estate filed suit against Lloyd Webber, accusing him of plagiarism, and the suit was settled out of court._

A lot of music sure does sound very similar, and for me, the real question is what to make of it. I used to care about originality, until I saw an article in which a neuroscientist analyzed the way our brain not only perceives music, but also makes it. And he noticed that our brains actually sample a lot of music (basically everything we ever heard) and then we make something "new" out of it - that very process of making something "new" was the main point of his research. Once he believed he got to the bottom of things, he made a software that (he claims) does a good job of simulating a process by which a composer makes new music. He fed his algorithm with a lot of music, and would get a lot of new music that (he claims) is no worse than most composers (he worked mostly with classical, if I remember correctly). So even the most original music had to come from somewhere, and the more different new music is, we are more prone to call a composer original and the more similar it sounds, we call it plagiarism. It is easy to find this idea unpleasant, but it is possible to get used to it, too. Also, all of this does not help Andrew Lloyd Webber in court - he is expected to know his Puccini.

But then I got into a little bit of jazz and I do think that that might be the healthiest attitude toward "original" music. Mind you, I am not talking about attitude of jazz aficionados, nor am I expert on jazz (actually I'm a beginner). I am talking about the attitude of taking a piece of music, some musical idea, and playing around with it. Some credit goes to whoever came up with the main idea (rather, who recorded it first), some credit to the guy who performs it (and changes it in the process).

That idea is not applicable only in music, Jim Jarmusch was inspired by Jean-Luc Godard to say the following:
_Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: "It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to."_

Needles to say, it completely alters one's idea about originality and plagiarism in art. And I find it not only profoundly truthful, but also liberating.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

graaf said:


> That idea is not applicable only in music, Jim Jarmusch was inspired by Jean-Luc Godard to say the following:
> _Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: "It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to."_
> 
> Needles to say, it completely alters one's idea about originality and plagiarism in art. And I find it not only profoundly truthful, but also liberating.


Absolutely! I aspire to write fiction someday (well, I write it now, but I aspire to do it well someday) and probably no aspect of literature stimulates me more than "intertextuality." I credit Coppola's film _Bram Stoker's Dracula_ for starting my high school self down this line of thought.


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## Tristan (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't find too much fault with some of these so-called instances of "plagiarism" either. If we assume that ALB really did borrow the main tune to "Music of the Night" from "Quello che tacete", Puccini's piece was virtually unknown until ALB made it into something excellent that everyone knows. The tune might never have been so popular if it hadn't been put into the Phantom of the Opera. Also, what about the concept of variations on a theme, such a popular classical format? Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini turned a small tune by another composer into a 22-minute long piece that remains one of Rachmaninov's most famous works.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Tristan said:


> I don't find too much fault with some of these so-called instances of "plagiarism" either. If we assume that ALB really did borrow the main tune to "Music of the Night" from "Quello che tacete", Puccini's piece was virtually unknown until ALB made it into something excellent that everyone knows. The tune might never have been so popular if it hadn't been put into the Phantom of the Opera. Also, what about the concept of variations on a theme, such a popular classical format? Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini turned a small tune by another composer into a 22-minute long piece that remains one of Rachmaninov's most famous works.


In a way I fell this is a reply to my post (reference to ALB and variations to a theme), so I might clarify myself (no worries - no flames incoming  ).

"ALB made it into something excellent that everyone knows. The tune might never have been so popular if it hadn't been put into the Phantom of the Opera." - I do agree that bringing music to the people is great, even if they never find out who the original composer is. There are far worse people in the "industry of pushing music onto people" (also known as "music industry"), ALB at least took a proper music and made something fine out of it.

"Also, what about the concept of variations on a theme". I spoke of that in my post. It was a lengthy one, so you might missed it, but I wrote about jazz doing it all the time, and that being the "healthiest attitude" towards the whole thing of originality vs plagiarism.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

If you listen to Lloyd-Webber,which I endeavour to avoid,you will find every composer who ever lived.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I see nothing wrong with borrowing phrases. If it's not obvious, it's research. If it's obvious, it's an homage. 

I've always felt the opening theme of Shostakovich's 5th symphony exactly quotes a segment from Beethoven's 7th symphony, movement 4, after the exposition and when the development begins. This is not quite halfway through the movement, about the 4:00 minute mark in most performances. Hard to explain.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Not coincidence, and not plagiarism. In fact, there's even a book about it: http://www.amazon.com/The-Language-...8648128&sr=8-1&keywords=the+language+of+music


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

This proves that CP tonality reached a dead end long go. All its formulas began to sound the same, until finally music "evolved" into the 12-tone system and serialism. Thank goodness that music was able to "progress" beyond tonality!


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Stargazer said:


> That is exactly what I was about to say. If you look at the sheer quantity of music out there, it's pretty obvious that you're going to have some overlap. Honestly I'm surprised that there isn't more than we see. I think that in most cases it is not intentional, it's just coincidence...two people both independently come to a good, yet similar, melody and stick with it. However there are always the few nefarious cases where someone will blatantly copy the works of someone else. I like to believe that those are in the vast minority though.
> 
> Then there is also the case of subconscious plagiarism, where you plagiarize without realizing it. Say you heard a piece of music when you were 10 years old, really enjoyed it but hadn't heard it since. Then, 20 years later, you start writing a new song, and you end up basically writing the melody from that other song note for note. Consciously you feel as though your work is completely original, but in reality you remembered that other song in the back of your mind without realizing it. I've seen a couple cases of this happening in the media in recent years.


Spot on analysis. Having tried to write music over the years, when I do I am constantly in fear that I will plagarize without realizing it. Others who I know who have attempted to compose have mentioned the same thing. This is why popular music composers will not listen to music sent to them except in very limited cases. They fear that something will enter into their own music for which they will later be sued.

Still, original music keeps being written, I suppose it just gets harder to be original today than in the past.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Bernstein's compositions seem to me to be tissues of "quotations"--the theme from "Somewhere" in _WSS _being obviously derived from the slow movement of Beethoven's "Emperor" Concerto, and the tune to "New York, New York" from _On The Town _being found in the climax of Brahms's Piano Concerto No. 1, 3rd movement, plus many others (esp. in _Candide_) that I have noticed but can't call to mind at present. Hard to believe someone as richly knowledgeable about music history as Lenny B. borrowed these accidentally.

Nevertheless, I agree with Science and others that it is more productive to discuss these borrowings in the neutral terms of "intertextuality" not in the loaded language of "plagiarism." After all, there are only so many intervals in a twelve-note scale, and only so many combinations of intervals, so if you are working in conventional tonality there is only so much that can be written before everything is a remix.

By the way, ever compare the final movement of Haydn's 20/5 and Mozart's Kyrie from the _Requiem _and Handel's "And with his stripes" from _Messiah_?


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## Truckload (Feb 15, 2012)

Kopachris said:


> Not coincidence, and not plagiarism. In fact, there's even a book about it: http://www.amazon.com/The-Language-...8648128&sr=8-1&keywords=the+language+of+music


I hadn't seen that one yet, I just bought it. Thanks!


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

There is no coincidence in the Intellectual level! so go figure...



millionrainbows said:


> This proves that CP tonality reached a dead end long go. All its formulas began to sound the same, until finally music "evolved" into the 12-tone system and serialism. Thank goodness that music was able to "progress" beyond tonality!


Wishful thinking.


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

Truckload said:


> Still, original music keeps being written, I suppose it just gets harder to be original today than in the past.


I don't know if the situation of Literature is worse or the situation of music right now. 
For innovation in arts, literature and principles one must start ridiculing the older works and/or walk in complete irrational and meaningless paths. The result isn't something great or beautiful for sure.


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## Hausmusik (May 13, 2012)

Arsakes said:


> I don't know if the situation of Literature is worse or the situation of music right now.
> For innovation in ...literature ...one must start ridiculing the older works and/or walk in complete irrational and meaningless paths. The result isn't something great or beautiful for sure.


People have been making this complaint this ever since the time of Euripides, who was hounded into exile for producing masterpieces like _The Bacchae_ and _Orestes _that stretched the limits of classical tragedy by incorporating elements of parody and the absurd. To the cultural conservative, every art is forever in decline. I respectfully disagree with you.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Hausmusik said:


> Bernstein's compositions seem to me to be tissues of "quotations"--the theme from "Somewhere" in _WSS _being obviously derived from the slow movement of Beethoven's "Emperor" Concerto,


 Oh now you've gone and done it. I was oblivious to this. But it's amazing that the phrase is lifted out of the middle of a melody and used as the opening of another melody, completely transforming it. Just moving the accents or the harmonic structure will transform a melody too. So in that respect quoting can be a valid springboard and a fun intellectual exercise. This is why I love Bruce Adolphe's Piano Puzzlers so much. I may start a thread about them if there isn't one.


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## drpraetorus (Aug 9, 2012)

The late actor Walter Slezak was the son of the great Wagnerian tenor Leo Slezak. Walter wrote an autobiography called "What Times the Next Swan?". In that book he writes about having written a symohiny as a child.He played it for his fater who promptly went to the piano and showed him where all his "original" themes had come from. He had used music only from the best. 

Human minds all work the same way and when presented with the standard diatonic scale and general western european culture, it is natural that certain note sequences will sound more congruent than others and melodies will sometimes use similar themes. Also, we absorb what we hear and it will sometimes come out in some ways either literally repeted or slightly altered, and we won't recognize it until we are publicly embarassed by it. I remember in counterpoint class writing a really nice work with a great theme. It was only in class, infront of everybody, that it was poijnted out that my wonderful theme was in fact "Sheep Shall Safely Graze". OOPS!

RE Lenny and lloyd-Webber; in WWS, Lenny uses a chunck of the Brunhilda theme from The Ring. I also remember one of the Young Peoples Concerts where he discussed music sounding the same. He took the opening phrase of "How Dry I Am" (rising 4th and three whole steps up G-C-D-E) and showed it in several different guises. He included the Shostakovich 5th previously mentioned and "The Party's Over" g-c-d-f-e. Lloyd-Webber is often derivative, sometimes skirting plagerism, but he is also very good at what he does. I would love to have one "Memories" in my resume.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

millionrainbows said:


> This proves that CP tonality reached a dead end long go. All its formulas began to sound the same, until finally music "evolved" into the 12-tone system and serialism. Thank goodness that music was able to "progress" beyond tonality!


Formulas don't sound the same, composers may though. Originality doesn't lie in the language but in the conception and execution. A quote from memory: "I have received your manuscript and find it both original and good. Unfortunately the parts that are good are not original, and the parts that are original are not good."


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