# UN 'apology' over a Serbian anthem



## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't know where to put this or whether it even belongs to the forum, but I believe the issue is related to the good old 'Wagner in Israel' problem/dilemma/conundrum.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...b1fa20-611e-11e2-8f16-7b37a1341b04_story.html

What do you say about the relevance and offensibility of anthems? Is Marseillaise bloodthirsty, is Rule Britannia imperialistic, is Deutschland uber alles whatever bring chills to your heart?


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

By the way, UN did not exactly apologize for performance of the song per se, as most papers reported it. The wording was:

_Martin Nesirky said that "the United Nations was aware that *some people were offended* by the song"._

I am not sure if this can be taken as apology for the song itself, just for some people's interpretation of it.

There are many other little untruths in the article, if anyone cares to inquire (which is natural since Post writers cannot be expected to know Balkan history in detail). But the bigger question is the anthems in general. (Maybe should change the title of the thread...)


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

I await the perfectly written contrapuntal 'anthem' of all national anthems combined, sung simultaneously and 'harmoniously' -- Of course, that is antithetical to the purpose of national anthems; they are intended to 'unite and stir' the locals with pride of place, a sense of 'belonging' to the group in that place, inculcate both sentiment and a sentimental loyalty, etc.

Trouble is, as so designed, whether for a faith group or sovereign nation, in making "a sense of US," they are one side of a coin, the obverse that it turns all others who literally sing another tune, i.e. their national anthem, "THEM." 

Ergo, I'm agin'em all, thinking a nation's folk music, pop music and 'art music' the best representative and ambassador any culture could have.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> What do you say about the relevance and offensibility of anthems? Is Marseillaise bloodthirsty, is Rule Britannia imperialistic, is Deutschland uber alles whatever bring chills to your heart?


"Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves,
Britons never shall be slaves"

What's imperialistic about that? Rather the other way around.

And "Deutschland über alles" is not about ruling other nations, it is about putting the interests of the united Germany above the interests of all the small kingdoms and principalities it used to consist of.

I would think classical music fans would be the last ones to dislike the "Lied der Deutschen", since its tune was composed by one of the great masters 

In any case I would be very strongly against canceling the traditional musical symbols of European nations and introducing something different instead.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

That Song not an official Anthem of Serbia which is ''Bože pravde'' or ''God Give Us Justice'' is an warrior song an march from WWI when Serbian army fought AH forces on Drina Border...It has nothing to do with Muslims who objected...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

As far as my understanding of the article you posted, the song in question isn't the official national anthem of Serbia now. Its a popular nationalist song that was voted to be the anthem but didn't become it. So maybe the issue is that at that ceremony they should have played the actual anthem, not this ersatz one.

Maybe they should have just played the official anthem of the EU at that ceremony, which is Beethoven's _Ode to Joy_. Go back to a time of idealism before all that horrible stuff we don't want to know about, right?

Anyway, in terms of Australia, the Federal parliament voted on a new anthem to replace the old one, which was the same as the British (_God Save the King/Queen_). That was around the 1970's. They chose_ Advance Australia Fair_, an old song about Australia penned by a Scotsman. The controversy around it has mainly been its banal tune and archaic language (Australia is called a land 'girt by sea' which apparently means surrounded by sea, but some people don't accept 'girt' as a real word).

Funny how former Australian Prime Minister John Howard, of the conservative side, said at the time he didn't vote for _Advance Australia Fair,_ he voted for _Waltzing Matilda_, the classic song/poem by Banjo Patterson. Now there's a tune! But some Australians I talk to say they don't want it, as its about a guy who steals sheep, then drowns in a lake after being chased by police. But I think its got more to do with Australia's history (eg. the convict era, and how there is an ingrained distrust here of authority) than the present anthem. & it was written by an Australian.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

True song was abused by some wild butchering forces of bosnian serbs but its original hystorical context had nothing to do with usage in the last decade of XXth century...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I'd add to my long winded post above, in terms of Australian anthems, contemporary composers have written anthems here. Eg. Peter Sculthorpe wrote an _Anthem for Australia_, a very eloquent piece, for the ceremony for the victims of the terrible Victorian bushfires of 2009. I can't find it on youtube unfortunately.

So maybe its time for countries to put in the dustbin of history these remnants of the ancient history and write anthems that are relevant to today's world, not just reflections of the brutalities and injustices of the past. Even if they are just subliminally connected, do we actually need them?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And "Deutschland über alles" is not about ruling other nations, it is about putting the interests of the united Germany above the interests of all the small kingdoms and principalities it used to consist of.


As I remember, a lot of it is abut the superior qualities of German women and wine, too!

German women, German loyalty,
German wine and German song
Shall retain in the world
Their old beautiful chime
And inspire us to noble deeds
During all of our life.
|: German women, German loyalty,
German wine and German song! :|


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Yes, and that too. I can understand why the Germans decided to remove the "Deutschland über alles" verse, but why did they get rid of the "women and loyalty" verse too?


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

We managed to play the South Korean anthem for the North Koreans at thr Olympics---you can imagine how well that went down !!


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

> As far as my understanding of the article you posted, the song in question isn't the official national anthem of Serbia now. Its a popular nationalist song that was voted to be the anthem but didn't become it. So maybe the issue is that at that ceremony they should have played the actual anthem, not this ersatz one.


For a long time Serbia and Montenegro kept EX YU communist anthem *Hej Sloveni*...Marš na drinu wasnt anthem it only had few voices of support even in dark age of war in 90.-ies, it was used by some paramilitary formations in Bosnia mostly...Since the changes in 2000th old serbian royalist hymn Bože Pravde with edited text cause Serbia is no longer an monarchy was brought back as official


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

Guy behind the whole mess is ex serbian foreign minister Vuk Jeremić who relentlessly tries to be a ''great serbian nationalist'' makes fool of himself and his people for what he gets tons of money from our stupid authistic government...He is now something thats called ''special representative'' in UN and he tries with all the wrong weapons to ''represent'' his country doing really more damge than good...Of all nice and normal serbian songs under his influence was chosen a song that has a warcry in itself...Hes an idiot but individual cant do something about it here...


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Anybody know the history of the German anthem? There's the issue of Haydn doing variations on _God Save the King _in his _Emperor Quartet_. But I'm confusing this with the _St. Antoni Chorale_ (upon which Brahms did variations too). I have read about the chequered history of this anthem, but I forget it and don't have time now to research.

But it would be ironic if the German national anthem (the tune that is, not the words) was sourced from the British, from _God Save the King_. In any case, the tune in that Haydn quartet is very similar if not the same to a hymn tune still sung in Anglican churches today.

Anyway guys research away all you want on this, get back to us on this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I got a cd of Haydn's quartet and that's what I remember it saying. I'll have to check.

Another thing is that Brahms' _Academic Festival Overture_, written for the university that gave him the honorary doctorate, has quotes from the songs sung by students (and workers?) during the republican revolution of 1848. It happened in what later became Germany as well as rest of Europe. But Germany was not united until the 1870's, not with idealism but with Bismarck's policy of 'blood and iron.' Anyway, what's Brahms' overture got to do with this? I hear some vague similarity with one of the tunes - towards its end - with the current German anthem. Am I right?



PetrB said:


> ...
> Ergo, I'm agin'em all, thinking a nation's folk music, pop music and 'art music' the best representative and ambassador any culture could have.


Yes, and of course music crosses national and other boundaries.


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

I like Deutshland uber alles...Very powerful stuff...Xisted long before Xitler


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

My God the british commonwealth anthems really suck - refer below first is taken from the kanac, second is from the Aussie

In Days of yore,
From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain.
Here may it wave,
Our boast, our pride
And joined in love together,
The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
The Maple Leaf Forever.

When gallant Cook from Albion sail'd,
To trace wide oceans o'er,
True British courage bore him on,
Till he landed on our shore.
Then here he raised Old England's flag,
The standard of the brave;
With all her faults we love her still,
"Britannia rules the waves!"
In joyful strains then let us sing
"Advance Australia fair!"

I think we need a international anthem - something like ......

La la La la La la la, La la La la La La,
La la La la La la la, La lalalalala

(Rum te tiddle tum)

or my other favorite suggest anthem could be based on this-

Hail, hail East Germany
Land of fruit and grape
Land where you'll regret
If you try to escape
No matter if you tunnel under or take a running jump at the wall Forget it, the guards will kill you, if the electrified fence doesn't first.

or Borat fake Kazzy anthem

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/borat-fake-kazakhstan-national-anthem-303939


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## Ramako (Apr 28, 2012)

When Haydn went to England he heard the British national anthem being sung by the people, and was impressed by how they were stirred and inspired (obviously a different country to nowadays :lol. He went back to Austria and talked to some people, and someone wrote a poem for him, and he wrote the tune, spending an abnormally long time on it for him. This then became the Austrian 'national anthem', though I'm not sure it was official then in the same way as now. Later the Germans stole it from the Austrians I guess...


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Sid James said:


> I'd add to my long winded post above, in terms of Australian anthems, contemporary composers have written anthems here. Eg. Peter Sculthorpe wrote an _Anthem for Australia_, a very eloquent piece, for the ceremony for the victims of the terrible Victorian bushfires of 2009. I can't find it on youtube unfortunately.
> 
> So maybe its time for countries to put in the dustbin of history these remnants of the ancient history and write anthems that are relevant to today's world, not just reflections of the brutalities and injustices of the past. Even if they are just subliminally connected, do we actually need them?


Yes,we need them and some pride in our country which becomes more difficult by the year.
Also don't worry about the brutalities and injustices of the past---you weren't there were you ?
The hell with these pitiful guilt complexes.


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

Flamme said:


> Of all nice and normal serbian songs under his influence was chosen a song that has a warcry in itself...Hes an idiot but individual cant do something about it here...


Not entirely true. Choral band 'Viva Vox' performed not only 'Mars na Drinu' but 10 songs alltogether, including Serbian folk songs like 'Ajde Jano' but also pop hits like 'Imagine' and 'Mamma Mia'.
And the war cry in the song is really defensive in context, coming from the time when Serbia's very existence was under threat from A-H.
(This is also an answer to the first part of Sid's post.)

But you're entirely right about our little slimy 'poltron' who has so far used every possible chance to embarrass himself at the head of UN GA.


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## SerbenthumInDerMusik (Nov 9, 2012)

PetrB said:


> I await the perfectly written contrapuntal 'anthem' of all national anthems combined, sung simultaneously and 'harmoniously' -- Of course, that is antithetical to the purpose of national anthems; they are intended to 'unite and stir' the locals with pride of place, a sense of 'belonging' to the group in that place, inculcate both sentiment and a sentimental loyalty, etc.
> 
> Trouble is, as so designed, whether for a faith group or sovereign nation, in making "a sense of US," they are one side of a coin, the obverse that it turns all others who literally sing another tune, i.e. their national anthem, "THEM."


What is the trouble? Why cannot 'US' and 'THEM' still get along?


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## Flamme (Dec 30, 2012)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> Not entirely true. Choral band 'Viva Vox' performed not only 'Mars na Drinu' but 10 songs alltogether, including Serbian folk songs like 'Ajde Jano' but also pop hits like 'Imagine' and 'Mamma Mia'.
> And the war cry in the song is really defensive in context, coming from the time when Serbia's very existence was under threat from A-H.
> (This is also an answer to the first part of Sid's post.)
> 
> But you're entirely right about our little slimy 'poltron' who has so far used every possible chance to embarrass himself at the head of UN GA.


I think ''Ajde jano'' is more Ethno than folk...
10 songs but only two with ''national'' note and o ne of them ''Marš''...I think its because that guy Jeremić is from Bosnia by origins and feels he needs to ''tell something'' to the world with this choice.Actually his grandfather was a prominent muslim politician Hamdija Pozderac...So i think he feels the urge to be a ''greater Serb'' than most of others...But he only turns out to be a primitive clown...


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## Arsakes (Feb 20, 2012)

That's absurd. If you sing your anthem, read a speech or write a article finally some people inside or outside your country will be offended!

Well, forget UN. What's your favorite national anthem (without their lyrics)?
I like those belong to Germany, Italy, Spain, France, USA, USSR, Iran and Greece. Although I haven't listened to all African ones and others haven't interested me.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

SerbenthumInDerMusik said:


> What is the trouble? Why cannot 'US' and 'THEM' still get along?


In quite a few cases I don't want to get along with THEM !


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

moody said:


> Yes,we need them and some pride in our country which becomes more difficult by the year.
> Also don't worry about the brutalities and injustices of the past---you weren't there were you ?
> The hell with these pitiful guilt complexes.


Well the UK might, so too Europe, but these are 'old' countries with long traditions. Young countries, in terms of white settlement/colonisation at least, like Australia & Canada are a different kettle of fish, I think. The post above showing how anachronistic those verses from these two countries anthems are illustrates my point. In terms of the Australian one, that verse (about Cook and Albion and all that) its a verse that is rarely if ever sung as part of our national anthem (_Advance Australia Fair_). Its so anachronistic and irrelevant now that most Australians don't know it. But they know what they know if the anthem, its still sung whenever the anthem is called for. There have been moves to abolish the anthem sung at assembly in schools. I think that's kind of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

But I think that we do need a new and more relevant anthem & composers here have already supplied them. Its just that some claim this is somehow 'tradition' when its not, it only became the anthem in the 1970's and it was penned by a Scotsman. _Waltzing Matilda_ was the alternative but not chosen due to the convict and other associations some people find kind of embarrassing (I don't) and the words of that where changed to 'God Bless Australia' but that hardly speaks to our modern society, with separation of church and state. So I don't know how to solve this, its not my job, but I think its time for a change here. But as I said, other countries can do what they want, keep what they want if they think its relevant.

As for guilt complexes, I'll leave that, its too sensitive an issue here. In any case, I've gone into it on other threads here, and that's enough.


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## graaf (Dec 12, 2009)

Flamme said:


> I think ''Ajde jano'' is more Ethno than folk...


We (in Serbia) like to use word "ethno" (sr. "etno") because the word "folk" (sr. "folk") gained pejorative meaning in the last two decades, because it was (and still is) used in the context of cheap, trashy music with some folk elements also known as "turbo folk" (sr. "turbo folk"). In fact, the very word "folk" was not used in Serbia before cheap and trashy "turbo folk", so when Serbs see the word "folk" being used in reference to song "Ajde Jano", they get the wrong impression. Thus, in Serbia, where folk has pejorative/derogatory connotation, we needed new terms for proper folk music, so we use phrases like ethno music (sr. "etno muzika") or "izvorna muzika" (lit. "music from the source" - implying not the trash of the last two decades) or even "tradicionalna muzika" (traditional music). Even phrase "narodna muzika" is avoided, although "narod" means people, nation or folk (depending on context) and is most logical and resonable choice. Anyway, Ajde Jano is old, traditional folk song, and very popular one, too - even so that Faith No More likes to perform it (link).

As for controversy, Serbia of today is extremely polarized society and there is constant notion in the media about "two Serbias" (sr. "dve Srbije") - the first one being "conservative", meaning nationalistic, religious, homophobic, pro Russia/China (blaming EU/USA even for the weather), second one being "liberal", meaning pro-EU, secular, but also very often self-loathing and with pseudo-intellectual cynicism. That means that every trifle can be excuse to get insulted, to attack, or in any way make a few political points. And that is what happened here - March on the Drina is composed by Stanislav Binički during WW1, for which history is pretty much settled. But history of the Balkans in the 1990s is a problem and animosities are still strong, and you can't even perform a century old music because of the war of the 1990s. The fact that some Serbian war criminals used it in wars of 1990s is as relevant as content of iPod belonging to prison guards in Abu Ghraib - which is to say: not at all.


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