# Are you a prog rock heretic?



## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

It's funny, there are some talented musicians like Tim Gane of Stereolab who likes to make fun of prog rock and he uses the term derisively. Often, an artist will do that towards something respectable to try to be completely free. 

I was recently listening to some prog greats in previously unreleased material that was getting the usual "oohs and aahs" and to me what I was hearing was essentially unreasonable rambling. It didn't have any of the qualities of the finished, polished material, but was just riffing without a producer, one might say. And then listening to a studio album that was the combination of mainly two prog greats and it was pretty much unbelievable how bad and non-creative it was. 

I imagine classical composers would think the same of much of prog rock. I used to think, "why don't these classical composers come out and say how great Prog is? Why? Why?!?!"

Now, I know. I dare not say this on a Prog rock forum because I don't want to ruin anyone's parade let alone rain on it. 

I'm not saying that most of the best prog rock isn't good music. And it's a wide range so there are much taste differences. But I think it's nearness to the phenomena of "rock" is like a drain that sucks people down into the realm of unconscious, knee-jerk idol worship and nothing more. 

I think it's especially bad for modern composers who aren't quite in the rock camp and aren't quite in the classical camp. It's a challenge to get out of one level and into the next. It's not white-black, it's not knee-jerk. It's not saying classical people can't like rock music, it's saying, people don't have to get stuck in the fan machine that the industry has created. I think a lot of more educated prog rock fans force themselves over and over again to like music that isn't really that good.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Sounds pretty butthurt.

There are many masterpiece albums in prog rock. There's **** in every genre...


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

jailhouse said:


> Sounds pretty butthurt.
> 
> There are many masterpiece albums in prog rock. There's **** in every genre...


I don't know what you mean by butthurt but you do not understanding my post. I went to great length to make sure people could understand it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Ginastera was impressed by Emerson Lake & Palmer's arrangement of his piano concerto movement. But other than that, why would orchestral composers comment on prog rock? 

I don't know about your association of idol worship with rock oriened music. I'm sure there's plenty idol worship for the gods of classical music such as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.

And these days there is no industry created fan machine for prog. It' been a niche market for several decades now. It was only promoted by the industry in the 70s.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

^yeah that arrangement deserves high praise. So great.


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I just didn't understand why classical composers weren't going mad over Yes or Genesis (whose music I do love).

In my earlier days, I would have listened to the jamming of the people mentioned in the first thread and I would have _had _ to like it because I was a true believer. I'll always love and respect the prog rockers whose music is excellent but somehow I think I look at them like human beings more than a lot of others do.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Anyone mention Prog Rock, suppose we are heading for another stone age..........


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## Casebearer (Jan 19, 2016)

^^^^^^
I think we would need examples here. Apart from Yes and maybe Genesis (less familiar with) I think Soft Machine, Robert Wyatt, King Crimson, Jethro Tul etc have made a lot of great music. So what Prog Rock bands were you forced to enjoy by marketing and common opinion in those days that are really not that good at all? Maybe we even agree if you make your post more specific.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Don't forget Zappa


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

For personal reasons, I don't want to name names, just want to leave it vague. I think the tendency is to think of a prog artists to the exclusion of really being able to deeply absorb a classical composer, and true study of everything classical music signifies, which means a greater understanding of history, culture, and other things.


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

starthrower said:


> Ginastera was impressed by Emerson Lake & Palmer's arrangement of his piano concerto movement. But other than that, why would orchestral composers comment on prog rock?
> 
> I don't know about your association of idol worship with rock oriened music. I'm sure there's plenty idol worship for the gods of classical music such as Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven.
> 
> And these days there is no industry created fan machine for prog. It' been a niche market for several decades now. It was only promoted by the industry in the 70s.


Nah, Prog Metal is heavily commercialised nowadays... some of the most popular bands are considered "prog"...


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

The only "prog rock" stuff I have liked:

The Mars Volta
King Crimson
Gentle Giant (some songs)
Frank Zappa


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> I imagine classical composers would think the same of much of prog rock. I used to think, "why don't these classical composers come out and say how great Prog is? Why? Why?!?!"


Part of the reason might be that for classical composers in that era, prog rock, art jazz and related movements were the competition and, worse yet, the more successful competition. Young people were looking for art music that reflected their concerns and world view and academic composers of the 1950s and 60s weren't cutting it. Is it any wonder that the first generation living under the shadow of mutually assured destruction, for whom the instruments of death invaded every minute of their waking lives and dreams and for whom global extinction and personal incineration were never more than a half hour away, would gravitate toward the precision violence of Weather Report's "Unknown Soldier" or 21st-Century Schizoid Man, or Henry Cow's "Living in the Heart of the Beast?"


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Retyc said:


> Nah, Prog Metal is heavily commercialised nowadays... some of the most popular bands are considered "prog"...


I don't listen the metal oriented stuff. Could never get into it.


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

starthrower said:


> I don't listen the metal oriented stuff. Could never get into it.


You're not missing out on much... Prog metal is mostly made for amateur guitarists/drummers and edgy "music nerd" teens who are too cool for 4/4... but don't actually want to be challenged...

if you want to know what kind of stuff is popular nowadays, take a look at this


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

Retyc said:


> You're not missing out on much... Prog metal is mostly made for amateur guitarists/drummers and edgy "music nerd" teens who are too cool for 4/4... but don't actually want to be challenged...


HAHAHA That made my day. I've met people who play guitar and do all these techniques over the fretboard but know little **** about music theory despite the fact they say they love complex music. These kind of guys tend to despise pop music or simpler music thinking they are the masters of complexity. It's like: do you want to be challenged? Try giving Olivier Messiaen's music a listen.


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

PresenTense said:


> HAHAHA That made my day. I've met people who play guitar and do all these techniques over the fretboard but know little **** about music theory despite the fact they say they love complex music. These kind of guys tend to despise pop music or simpler music thinking they are the masters of complexity. It's like: do you want to be challenged? Try giving Olivier Messiaen's music a listen.


Give them some Ligeti or Nancarrow if they really like their "complicated polyrhythms and odd meters"


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Yeah, or Zappa even ....lol there is plenty of complexity out there if you look even in the Prog world.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

There are some things mentioned in this thread I like such as The Mars Volta and Zappa, but over all prog music doesn't really do much for me and I don't see much connection to classical music. 

Most of it seems far too nerdy to be good rock n' roll, and not composed well enough music to be good classical. So it is in this 'in between' zone of music that exists that I couldn't care less about.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

tdc said:


> Most of it seems far too nerdy to be good rock n' roll, and not composed well enough music to be good classical.


It's not classical music, that's a given. But you'd have to listen to some of the best stuff before making the assumption that it's not well composed, or connected to classical music.


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

If you want to find it its there John Zorn, Fred Frith, Soft Machine and Brain Eno etc..


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## regenmusic (Oct 23, 2014)

I think besides the very good symphonic prog like Yes, ELP, Genesis, Novalis, and some others, the Magma influence Zuehl is also often very good, as is the Canterbury school which is international but very hard to find in its non-British bands that have that style.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

regenmusic said:


> the Canterbury school which is international but very hard to find in its non-British bands that have that style.


Supersister was a good band. I have several of their albums. Other than them, I stick to the authentic Canterbury stuff. Caravan, Egg, Hatfield, National Health, Gong, Softs.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

regenmusic said:


> I think besides the very good symphonic prog like Yes, ELP, Genesis, Novalis, and some others, the Magma influence Zuehl is also often very good, as is the Canterbury school which is international but very hard to find in its non-British bands that have that style.


I am a big fan of almost all sub-genres of prog, from the best known symphonic bands of the 70's, to Zeuhl, to avant-prog and Canterbury. And I am an equal fan of the bands of the 70's and the 90's revival, to the present day bands.

There are good and bad examples of music from every genre, as previously pointed out.

Here's a partial list of non-British 'Canterbury' bands:

Picchio Dal Pozzo from Italy
Volare from France
Moving Gelatine Plates from France
Ain Soph from Japan
The Muffins from the USA
Cos from the Netherlands
Mr. Sirius from Japan


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> If you want to find it its there John Zorn, Fred Frith, Soft Machine and Brain Eno etc..


There are some things I've heard by Zorn and Eno that I think are good, (but that particular stuff was not prog rock). But as I said there are exceptions, but over-all there is just a certain sound to prog rock I do not enjoy. This is just a subjective thing, but it is why from my perspective it is not surprising that prog is not really something that is generally acknowledged as important or influential in the classical music world because stylistically it is so different. The bands that I like in this genre (like Zappa and The Mars Volta) do not have a sound that is very typical of prog rock (maybe Zappa does on some tracks I have not heard but it wouldn't be my cup of tea).

My favorite Mars Volta releases are the first EP "Tremulant" and "Deloused in the Comatorium", the subsequent releases began to sound a little more progish and I am not as interested in them. I do like the free structures associated with the style but not the over all aesthetic. The genre called "fusion" seems somewhat related to prog and is usually similarly terrible sounding in my subjective opinion.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

tdc said:


> The genre called "fusion" seems somewhat related to prog and is usually similarly terrible sounding in my subjective opinion.


Prog, fusion (and some other jazz varieties) and 20th century and contemporary classical are pretty much all I listen to.

As you say, one person's subjective opinion of prog and fusion being terrible , is another's aural bliss!


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

yeah fusion is terrible

Weather Report - Heavy Weather
Jaco - Jaco
Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds of Fire
Return to Forever - Romantic Warrior
Billy Cobham - Spectrum
Pat Metheny - Bright Size Life
Herbie Hancock - Head hunters

what **** albums!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I respect Metheny and McLaughlin as excellent guitarists and I do like some of their music.


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

Is anyone familiar bands which treat timbre and dynamics the way classical chamber music does?


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## EddieRUKiddingVarese (Jan 8, 2013)

Retyc said:


> Is anyone familiar bands which treat timbre and dynamics the way classical chamber music does?


Frank Zappa and the Mothers


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Retyc said:


> Is anyone familiar bands which treat timbre and dynamics the way classical chamber music does?


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Retyc said:


> Is anyone familiar bands which treat timbre and dynamics the way classical chamber music does?


I believe you will find that many of the avant garde prog bands will have these attributes. I believe it is because so many members of this sub-genre have classical training.

Give a listen to some of the following bands:

Aranis from Belgium.

The Thinking Plague from the USA.

Univers Zero from Belgium.

Art Zoyd from Belgium.

Miriodor from Quebec.

Höyry-Kone and their offshoot, Alamaailman Vasarat from Finland.

Far Corner from USA.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Also Henry Cow's Western Culture. I like the self titled Far Corner CD, but that has quite a bit of jazz influence too.

I would say Oregon is another great band to listen to. They definitely have a chamber group structure, and can't be pigeonholed into any one musical category or genre.











Maybe too jazzy or mellow for some listeners, but I enjoy them.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Another chamber rock ensemble.


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## jailhouse (Sep 2, 2016)

Camel's The Snow Goose has obvious classical music influences (especially in the wind enemble parts, obviously)


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## PresenTense (May 7, 2016)

Here are some tunes I like a lot:

Syd Arthur - What's Your Secret

The Mars Volta - Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus

Gentle Giant - Cogs in Cogs

Gentle Giant - Schooldays

Frank Zappa - Five-Five-Five

Syd Arthur - Edge of the Earth


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## Retyc (May 10, 2016)

Hmm... I can't stand rock vocals and keyboards... and the purely instrumental ones are too mellow/upbeat for my taste...


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Retyc said:


> Hmm... I can't stand rock vocals and keyboards... and the purely instrumental ones are too mellow/upbeat for my taste...


Then I strongly recommend you explore some of the avant prog bands I listed, or others in the genre.

The majority of them that are instrumental, are far from upbeat or mellow. They tend to be dark, dynamic, brooding, intense, a bit prickly. Upbeat and mellow are hardly descriptors I would use for the genre.

There are a few exceptions, however. There are a few of these bands that tend to be quirky and a bit lighthearted. Sweden's 'Sammla Mammas Manna' is one example.

The bands with vocals are hardly anywhere near standard rock vocals. Many of them have vocal training, or naturally good voices, and none of them that I can think of are even trying to sing in a rock style.

And the keyboard players are extremely skilled, and again, don't play in any standard rock style. Usually 20th century classical and contemporary classical are their main influences, with some jazz tossed in. Piano tends to be the main keyboard instrument played, but when synth is used, the sound palette is usually on the atmospheric side.

Here is a decent description of the genre from Progarchives:

Avant-prog is generally considered to be more extreme and 'difficult' than other forms of progressive rock, though these terms are naturally subjective and open to interpretation. Common elements that may or may not be displayed by specific avant-prog artists include:

- Regular use of dissonance and atonality.
- Extremely complex and unpredictable song arrangements.
- Free or experimental improvisation.
- Fusion of disparate musical genres.
- Polyrhythms and highly complex time signatures.

Most avant-prog artists are highly unique and eclectic in sound and consequently tend to resist easy comparisons. However, Frank Zappa is often cited as a major influence on many avant-prog artists due to his early adoption of avant-garde and experimental attitudes within a predominantly rock/jazz context.


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