# Where is the best place to start with Wagner?



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

He is one major composer of the 19th century that I've never got into and only know a few of his overtures. So what opera is a good one to get into for a Wagner novice? I also collect CDs and MP3s so naturally Wagner should be in my collection. Thank you.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The other day I did get hold of a copy of Voigt and Domingo singing the love duet from Tristan which was arranged for concert performance by Wagner himself. Might be a good place to start.


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## Logos (Nov 3, 2012)

beetzart said:


> He is one major composer of the 19th century that I've never got into and only know a few of his overtures. So what opera is a good one to get into for a Wagner novice? I also collect CDs and MP3s so naturally Wagner should be in my collection. Thank you.


I would suggest _The Flying Dutchman_. It's Wagner's first masterpiece and has the advantage of brevity. The plot and motivations are rather simple and easy to follow, unlike the Ring.

The Klemperer recording is held in very high regard. The Dorati recording has George London who is an excellent Dutchman.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Any of his first three major operas - _Der Fliegende Hollander,_ _Tannhauser_ or _Lohengrin_ - could be a good start. The first of these is the shortest (if that matters to you), the others successively longer. On the other hand, some people respond strongly and immediately to the later, supposedly more "difficult" operas: to the dark passion and tragedy of _Tristan und Isolde,_ the optimism and warmth of _Die Meistersinger,_ the luminous mystery of _Parsifal_, or the multifaceted world of the _Ring._ If you know orchestral bits already, they may give you a sense of what you'd like.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

All I can do is recount my own experience, which got me hooked for a long time.

The first Wagner opera I really listened to was Tristan, it was Karajan's recording I think. Shortly after that I went to see The Dutchman and I had a recording but it's not favourite of mine, though there are some very memorable things in there. 

After that I went to Parsifal (Knappertsbusch) and then The Ring -- via Solti. 

I've seen The Ring, Parsifal and Tristan many times. 

I've seen Maestersinger, Tanhauser and Lohengrin but I've never owned or listened to a recording.


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## Muse Wanderer (Feb 16, 2014)

I started with the Ring cycle by watching several video versions starting with the more traditional setting of Levine with the Met and Boulez. Barenboim was the best cycle on DVD. Once I got used to the operas and music, I started to listen to several CD versions such as Solti. 

Wagner's music is worth the effort. I can't imagine not having experienced the finales of Walkyre or Gotterdamerung. Astounding music indeed.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

I started with the Ring and it was not only my start with Wanger but my start with opera as a genre as well. So I would start with Das Rheingold. I can speak reasonably good German (on a comparable level to English), but I must say, that Wanger's German is difficult and uses archaic and obscure language. So it depends if you want to just follow the music (which is wonderful) or also understand the story (sort of the Lord of the Ring of the 19th century). In any case, getting into Wagner will need some effort and involvement on your part. The operas can last 4 hours and you need to absorb not only the music, but also the story. And it is a lot. But it is worth it. The Ring is a masterpiece.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2018)

Start with the Ring. The story is easy to follow and the pacing is fairy quick in comparison to some of his other works.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

Die Walkure is a great first impression for Wagner.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

bharbeke said:


> Die Walkure is a great first impression for Wagner.


Yes this is true, Act 1 of Die Walküre is a very good place to start!


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

For a full Wagner blow at the start, I would say Tristan und Isolde. 

Why? Because the extreme and tense drama makes a big and lasting impression. The disadvantages are that it's four hours long, the story has only a couple of inflection points or events and thus each event is extensively developed, which results in large monologues with not much action besides that (of course, it's in the music). Thus, it's recommendable to watch it with subtitles since a lot of the drama goes on, besides the music, in the words and their meaning.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Wow, thanks for your responses and suggestions. I'll get straight to Amazon now I think!


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Well, my own experience with Wagner: although I loved his overtures by then, the first complete opera by him that I've tried was _Tristan und Isolde_ with Furtwängler, and I had a strong dislike reaction to it. I was starting in classical music and thought at the time that, except by their overtures, operas were long and boring, and after some time I was so annoyed with the music that I stopped listening at the second act. I would also have a stale response to _Das Rheingold_ with Levine some months later.

Then, one or two years later, I tried to listen to the second act of _Lohengrin_ with Varviso. Against all my expectations, I loved it, and this event would start to completely change my perception not only of Wagner's operas but of the genre as a whole over time.

Today, almost a decade later, I like operas, Wagner is one of my absolute favorite composers, and _Tristan und Isolde_ (with Kleiber) has become one of those works that I love so much that I would surely bring to that desert island. I'm far from being an expert opera listener though, and still haven't listened to many important works in the genre, but I know all Wagner's operas with the exception of _Rienzi_, _Das Liebesverbot_ and _Die Feen_.

My suggestion is that you try first _Der Fliegende Hollander_, _Tännhauser_ or _Lohengrin_ as, I believe, they not only have great music but also are easier to listen to and are more beginner-friendly, unless of course if you are not a beginner like I was (and perhaps still am) and is already familiar with musical works that explore the edges of tonality.


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## Antiquarian (Apr 29, 2014)

_Der Fliegende Holländer _ is a good place to start. The Woldemar Nelsson production with the Bayreuther Festspiele, although unconventional, is compelling, and looks and sounds great on DVD.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I wouldn't start with the earlier - and actually less great - operas. The Ring or Tristan are good starts or Parcifal ... but you need time. Or you could go for Wagner's more earthbound/human mature opera, Die Meistersinger. I think that's where I started and it is still the one I know best. It is somewhat more varied than the others and has a more conventional story. Whichever you choose I would have in playing in the background sometimes as well as listening properly to it - let it sink in.


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

I think an important question is whether or not one is already an experienced fan of opera.


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## WildThing (Feb 21, 2017)

JAS said:


> I think an important question is whether or not one is already an experienced fan of opera.


Not necessarily. Wagner was basically my introduction to opera.

I started more or less chronologically with Wagner's first masterpiece, The Flying Dutchman, and worked my way forward from there. Worked for me.


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

If you have no concept of Wagner other than opera overtures I would recommend one of:

1. Listening to/buying/attending a performance of The Flying Dutchman, as has been previously recommended, because it has all the fingerprints and drama of later Wagner in a more manageable size. However, if you are not keen on an opera in its entirety …

2. Purchase one of the many downsized versions of the Ring. If you listen to CDs this twofer would be a good starting point: https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Best-...ER+Ring+Bohm&qid=1537811476&sr=8-3&ref=sr_1_3 since it would give you all the famous arias and orchestral moments.

3. If you want to dive in digitally acquire the newer digital version of Georg Solti's Ring. It became available last year or the year before. It has been ranked in just about every classical magazine and record/CD survey as the greatest recording of the 20th century. It is still the greatest Wagner opera recording ever and, in the new digital format, can be played start to finish (about 20 hours) without a break if you like.


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## Brucknerphile (Sep 5, 2018)

The Ring Cycle can be a Great Binge Listen!!

Get the libretti and scores if you can read music and then set aside a whole vacation day or a weekend, tell the neighbors to close their windows, turn the volume up to rafter shaking level, and sing along as loud as you can--all the parts, it is a great experience!!

You'll wear out your voice, you'll scare the neighbor's dogs and also the neighbors but you'll have a great time. Maybe some of them could come join you for a singalong. 

Let Wagner's Music overwhelm you!! It will!!!


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## Machiavel (Apr 12, 2010)

I wish I could give you something but Wagner reminds a mystery for me. I have tried and tried and tried...

Brahms says so much out of almost nothing and Wagner says almost nothing out of so much.:devil: 

Sadly it's still why I don't like Wagner's music, I find the enveloppe sublime but the content empty...

I will give him another go soon with Tannhauser and parsifal.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I wouldn't start with the earlier - and actually less great - operas. The Ring or Tristan are good starts or Parcifal ... but you need time. Or you could go for Wagner's more earthbound/human mature opera, Die Meistersinger. I think that's where I started and it is still the one I know best. It is somewhat more varied than the others and has a more conventional story. Whichever you choose I would have in playing in the background sometimes as well as listening properly to it - let it sink in.


If there is one opera to start with it should be Lohengrin. It is extremely beautiful and at least does have some recognisable form before Wagner became obsessed with the quasi recitative that marks his later operas. Unless you are a paid-up Wagner fan (or potential one) then you will find for the later works Rossini's maxim that Wagner has sublime and thrilling moments but awful quarter hours to be uncomfortably true.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Machiavel said:


> I wish I could give you something but Wagner reminds a mystery for me. I have tried and tried and tried...
> 
> Brahms says so much out of almost nothing and Wagner says almost nothing out of so much.:devil:
> 
> ...


 As one who finds Wagner curates egg, I can sympathise with you. I would give Wagner a miss and listen to music you like. Life is too short. The maxim that one mans meat is another mans poison applies to music as well


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## bravenewworld (Jan 24, 2016)

As it happens, I'm currently beginning my Wagner journey. I have only ever listened to one Wagner opera, but I have fallen utterly in love with it, and have listened to nothing else for the past fortnight. It took me some time to understand it: I had to listen to the opening several times before I grasped that, and trawl through TC threads on the opera + read some academic papers on the subject before I watched the entire work, but at that point its utter genius and beauty really started to strike me. Since then my adoration of this work has only swelled.

What was the work? Why, _Tristan und Isolde_, of course. I highly recommend it as an introduction to Wagner: a challenge, but one which bears great fruit if you persevere.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

bravenewworld said:


> As it happens, I'm currently beginning my Wagner journey. I have only ever listened to one Wagner opera, but I have fallen utterly in love with it, and have listened to nothing else for the past fortnight. It took me some time to understand it: I had to listen to the opening several times before I grasped that, and trawl through TC threads on the opera + read some academic papers on the subject before I watched the entire work, but at that point its utter genius and beauty really started to strike me. Since then my adoration of this work has only swelled.
> 
> What was the work? Why, _Tristan und Isolde_, of course. I highly recommend it as an introduction to Wagner: a challenge, but one which bears great fruit if you persevere.


Glad this works for you. But it always seems to me like introducing someone to Shakespeare by taking them to see King Lear. I always think that the Midsummer nights dream is a better introduction


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## Tallisman (May 7, 2017)

shirime said:


> Start with the Ring. The story is easy to follow and the pacing is fairy quick in comparison to some of his other works.


Can't agree. It's probably the least immediately musically appealing. I'd say Tannhauser or Lohengrin, and then Tristan. From there, anywhere.


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## lextune (Nov 25, 2016)

There is no "best place to start". Everyone is different. Maybe if we knew more about your listening habits... 
Baring that, one can only share ones experience.

Here is mine. It was '89/'90 I was in my early 20s, a musician, a pianist with a vast knowledge of the entire piano literature. A fan of Orchestral music, and chamber music, (at the time, mostly just the Beethoven quartets). But I was not an "opera fan". In fact I had only heard one opera before; The Magic Flute (which I loved). 
PBS was going to show Wagner's Ring from the Met. It was a true musical event, and being a young musician I felt compelled to watch. I can't say I was obsessed right away, but I did watch the whole thing, (and recorded it on VHS), ...and it stuck with me. At least in part. Less than a year later I watched the tapes again. Fast forward eight or ten years, and I was a Wagner nut. It can come and go in my case, but when it is upon me it is tough to listen to anything else.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

DavidA said:


> If there is one opera to start with it should be Lohengrin. It is extremely beautiful and *at least does have some recognisable form before Wagner became obsessed with the quasi recitative that marks his later operas.* Unless you are a paid-up Wagner fan (or potential one) then you will find for the later works Rossini's maxim that Wagner has sublime and thrilling moments but awful quarter hours to be uncomfortably true.


Whether Wagner's music has recognizable form depends on one's ability to recognize the form it has.

All you're saying is that unless you enjoy Wagner, or might potentially do so, you won't enjoy Wagner. Well - not to put too fine a point on it -

DUH.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

It should be obvious here that where one begins with Wagner is entirely an individual matter. I was overwhelmed with the mature works at age sixteen, and didn't find the earlier, "easier" operas as fascinating, although I loved them too. I think it's probably good for anyone to hear the orchestral excerpts to get acquainted with his musical language, but if the preludes to Tristan, Meistersinger and Parsifal grab you, you'll have a fine entryway to the operas themselves.


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## alan davis (Oct 16, 2013)

My suggestion for where to start with Wagner
1. Read what Woodduck writes.
2. Get a copy of Tristan and Isolde, Karl Bohm's live recording from Bayreuth.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Where is the best place to start with Wagner? 

Take a ride with the Valkyries. If that proves your type of trip, keep travelling on into the man's oeuvre. You won't be disappointed.


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## endelbendel (Jul 7, 2018)

Listen randomly. Something will move you. Go in deeper right there.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

_Where is the best place to start with Wagner? _

I started with _Parsifal_ and listened my way back from there to his earlier works... I heard an excerpt that grabbed my attention and I was captivated... I still like _Parsifal_ better than anything he did because of its spirituality, maturity, and theme of redemption that's bigger than one's ego... I got lucky with it and luck counts for something too when discovering a composer. I think some of his themes are the most beautiful and transcendent in all of music...


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## chalkpie (Oct 5, 2011)

Act III of Die Walkure is still my favourite Wagner, period, especially the final 15-20 minutes. INCREDIBLE. 

Dritter Aufzug!


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## Tchaikov6 (Mar 30, 2016)

I started with Das Rheingold, I find it one of his most accessible works. From there I moved through the Ring Cycle and to all of his other works much easier.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I would start with "The Hobbit" and then work my way up to "The Lord of the Rings."

Ba-da-bing! But seriously, I started with the music only. There are lots of "without words" versions out there.


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