# Rigoletto, Il Trovatore, La Traviata..................



## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Which is your favorite?

How do you rank these 3 "middle period" Verdi operas?

What are your thoughts on each.

I feel these are his best and most inspired works along with Aida, Un Giorno (yes I do), and Falstaff.

What say you?
:tiphat:


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## silentio (Nov 10, 2014)

Traviata >= Trovatore > Rigoletto


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

1. Rigoletto
2. La Traviata
3. Il Trovatore


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

1. La Traviata 2. Rigoletto 3. Il Trovatore

They're all good, but La Traviata has a bit of an edge over the other ones for me. Plus, I've known it longer so I'm a bit prejudiced!


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Itullian said:


> What say you?
> :tiphat:


I just got Otello and I am so stricken with opera fatigue that it is going to take me quite a while to give them all their due. My plan, after a suitable opera-free rest period, is to revisit them all at great leisure, _one act at a time_, with the libretto. Needless to say, this will take quite a while


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

*La Traviata* ........by a mile 
Trovatore and Rigoletto are equal


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Pugg said:


> *La Traviata* ........by a mile
> Trovatore and Rigoletto are equal


I thought you used kilometers over there.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

1. Traviata. 2. Rigoletto. Each has an outstanding leading role for a great singer-actor. I have no use for Trovatore. There isn't one character I give a hang about, except the baby that got barbecued by Mommie Dearest.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Itullian said:


> I thought you used kilometers over there.


Could have seen that one coming


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> 1. Traviata. 2. Rigoletto. Each has an outstanding leading role for a great singer-actor. I have no use for Trovatore. There isn't one character I give a hang about, except the baby that got barbecued by Mommie Dearest.












You underrate the opera- at least with Callas in it.

The deep pathos of her chiaroscuro vocal inflections? The high drama of her "_Tacea la notte_"? That famed leap of a tenth to a top D-flat in "_D'amor sull'ali rosee_" which other Divas take a detour around?

'Mommy Dearest' has a way to go to get to Divina's level. . . well, 'almost':



















<Faye, take it away!>

_No... wire... hangers. What's wire hangers doing in this closet when I told you: no wire hangers EVER? I work and work 'till I'm half-dead, and I hear people saying, "She's getting old." And what do I get? A daughter... who cares as much about the beautiful dresses I give her... as she cares about me. What's wire hangers doing in this closet? Answer me. I buy you beautiful dresses, and you treat them like they were some dishrag. You do. Three hundred dollar dress on a wire hanger. We'll see how many you've got if they're hidden somewhere. We'll see... we'll see. Get out of that bed. All of this is coming out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. Out. You've got any more? We're gonna see how many wire hangers you've got in your closet. Wire hangers, why? Why? Christina, get out of that bed. Get out of that bed. You live in the most beautiful house in Brentwood and you don't care if your clothes are stretched out from wire hangers. And your room looks like some two-dollar-a-week furnished room in some two-bit back street town in Okalahoma. Get up. Get up. Clean up this mess. _

Incidentally: my vote is for _Traviata _first, _Rigoletto_ second, and _Trovatore_ third- all with 'you know who.'_ ;D_


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Marschallin Blair said:


> You underrate the opera- at least with Callas in it.
> 
> The deep pathos of her chiaroscuro vocal inflections? The high drama of her "_Tacea la notte_"? That famed leap of a tenth to a top D-flat in "_D'amor sull'ali rosee_" which other Divas take a detour around?
> 
> ...


I haven't underrated _Trovatore_. I just can't get interested, no matter who's singing.

As for wire hangers, I believe in them totally.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> I haven't underrated _Trovatore_. I just can't get interested, no matter who's singing.
> 
> As for wire hangers, I believe in them totally.


Well, there's 'some hope.'


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

I rate those Il Trovatore -> Rigoletto -> (many other operas inbetween) -> La Traviata.

The problem with La Traviata in my case is that I can't identify myself with or feel sympathy towards anyone in this plot. My bad...


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## Belowpar (Jan 14, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> 1. Traviata. 2. Rigoletto. Each has an outstanding leading role for a great singer-actor. I have no use for Trovatore. There isn't one character I give a hang about, except the baby that got barbecued by Mommie Dearest.


+1 although I have days when I think Rigoletto is ....well maybe....at least as good as La Traviata. But then I reflect on Traviata's flow and near perfection.

At first I had trouble accepting the Drama in Rigoletto, it seemed particular to it's time. But I realised I was wrong and now sadly I'm just waiting for someone to recast the Opera with Jimmy Saville as the Duke...today you don't even need charm just celebrity, and society will aid and abet you. Timeless drama.

Violetta still exists today, just think of the way in which the females in the news are treated by the press, compared with males.

Il Trovatore: what was Verdi thinking, because apparently he commissioned the libretto at a time when his juices were flowing. Has any character in Trovatore ever actually existed? Oh Yes, as portrayed by the Marx brothers in 1935.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

When Callas is singing the lead female role (and Gobbi is Rigoletto), I find it hard to make a choice. They are all equally wonderful. Yes, the libretto for *Il Trovatore* is not much better than many of Verdi's early operas, but oh what music it inspired this time round! Karajan's first recording with Callas really reveals its genius, its rude vigour, its chiaroscuro (thanks MB) lyricism like no other, though Giulini's comes close.

If pushed, I'd probably go for *La Traviata*, but just by a whisker. I love them all!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Belowpar said:


> +1 although I have days when I think Rigoletto is ....well maybe....at least as good as La Traviata. But then I reflect on Traviata's flow and near perfection.
> 
> At first I had trouble accepting the Drama in Rigoletto, it seemed particular to it's time. But I realised I was wrong and now sadly I'm just waiting for someone to recast the Opera with Jimmy Saville as the Duke...today you don't even need charm just celebrity, and society will aid and abet you. Timeless drama.
> 
> ...


When people say the plot of *La Traviata* is dated, I honestly can't understand them. It is as pertinent today as it ever was. Can you imagine any upper middle class family today accepting into their home a former prostitute, however good her manners? It makes complete sense.

As for *Il Trovatore*, well the plot may be ridiculous, but opera is not always about plot. It can be about archetypes and the emotions certain situations evoke. In a sense it is Verdi's farewell to his galley days. He certainly left them in a blaze of glory.


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

Rigoletto....Traviata...Trovatore The decision was simple...singing Sparafucil is fun ... singing Grenvil means I can drink beer in the Cantina and not worry....but Ferrando is the worst and most thankless part I know...and the aria is a "bear".


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

I'd go for La Traviata just because it has fewer characters and is more real... IF the staging and performance makes a convincing enough link between Violetta's state of mind ("Sempre libera"), Alfredo's devotion, and Papa Germont's demands. If that connection isn't made, it kind of falls apart. I usually find the Alfredo in any production to be the weakest link.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

This is a tough one.
I am Trav'd out.
I love Trovatore with the gorgeous "D'amor sull' ali rosee" but for sheer total enjoyment, I have to say _Rigoletto_. So many wonderful arias and duets (and that quartet).


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I'd go for La Traviata just because it has fewer characters and is more real... IF the staging and performance makes a convincing enough link between Violetta's state of mind ("Sempre libera"), Alfredo's devotion, and Papa Germont's demands. If that connection isn't made, it kind of falls apart. I usually find the Alfredo in any production to be the weakest link.












I find that the 'strongest,' or alternatively 'weakest,' link in _Traviata_ is Violetta- depending on the intelligence and vocal resources of the singer portraying her. If Callas is in the saddle, then _Traviata_ is clearly my favorite of the three Verdi operas- for all of the compelling dramatic intelligence, color, shading, and ingenious vocal inflections she brings to every word and syllable of text.

But if Callas is not front and center- then I honestly prefer _Rigoletto_ over _Traviata_ as an 'opera'- but just the fact that Callas did so many great _Traviatas_ shows what is possible with this masterpiece.

The psychological portraiture and vocal demands for the role are just so unbelievably_ high _that I can understand if a lot of performances of the opera are not as moving as _Rigoletto_.

Callas showed the way though, so '_Traviata_' it is (still) for me.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Azol said:


> I rate those Il Trovatore -> Rigoletto -> (many other operas inbetween) -> La Traviata.
> 
> The problem with La Traviata in my case is that I can't identify myself with or feel sympathy towards anyone in this plot. My bad...


Why not?

You've piqued my curiosity.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

_Rigoletto_ and then I don't much care, although _Il Trovatore_ is pretty funny. Verdi had the good sense to keep Hugo's play (_Le Roi s'amuse_) largely intact, and every departure from ottocento convention required to do it greatly increases the power of both music and drama.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

My favorites: 

1. Traviata
2. Trovatore
3. Rigoletto


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## Azol (Jan 25, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Why not?
> 
> You've piqued my curiosity.


Well, it would be unwise to bash what seems like most everyone's favorite here 

To enjoy the opera to its fullest potential, I have to feel the 'connection' with at least some character in the plot. When I do not care about any of them, listening to opera becomes purely technical act - I can judge the music, the singing, but it only scratches the surface with me. Sometimes I just wonder if I really care about what happens next.

I just venture to add that my absolute favorite Verdi operas include Aida, Don Carlo, Il Trovatore, Un Ballo in maschera, La forza del destino (how original )


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## manyene (Feb 7, 2015)

Traviata by a big margin: an intimate drama that challenges the assumptions of the bourgeois society of his day. But I would put 'Otello' in another, much greater league than the three 'middle period' office listed here.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Azol said:


> Well, it would be unwise to bash what seems like most everyone's favorite here
> 
> To enjoy the opera to its fullest potential, I have to feel the 'connection' with at least some character in the plot. When I do not care about any of them, listening to opera becomes purely technical act - I can judge the music, the singing, but it only scratches the surface with me. Sometimes I just wonder if I really care about what happens next.


Bash away.

I'm genuinely curious why you wouldn't be moved by Violetta.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

La Traviata
Rigoletto
Il Trovatore

La Traviata because it have a flow that the other operas don´t have. It would be impossible to pick out highlights from the opera because the whole opera is one highlight.
Rigoletto has fine music and a good story but it is more uneven and its tops don´t match the tops of La Traviata.
Il Trovatore is more or less blaha. I have no idea why it is so popular.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Sloe said:


> La Traviata
> Rigoletto
> Il Trovatore
> 
> ...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> When Callas is singing the lead female role (and Gobbi is Rigoletto), I find it hard to make a choice. They are all equally wonderful. Yes, the libretto for *Il Trovatore* is not much better than many of Verdi's early operas, but oh what music it inspired this time round! Karajan's first recording with Callas really reveals its genius, its rude vigour, its chiaroscuro (thanks MB) lyricism like no other, though Giulini's comes close.
> 
> If pushed, I'd probably go for *La Traviata*, but just by a whisker. I love them all!


In preparing to listen to the Met's broadcast of _Ernani_ last Saturday, I had to examine the plot for the first time. Unlucky Elvira has all three guys on her tail and in the end the tenor, the one she wants, kills himself right in front of her because he promised the baritone he would. This nonsense is redeemed by two hours of nonstop hit tunes, which I gather made _Ernani_ Verdi's most popular opera until he came along with_ Trovatore_. I guess this proves your point.

I still don't care about _Trovatore_. But I do love Battistini's _Ernani_ recordings!


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> In preparing to listen to the Met's broadcast of _Ernani_ last Saturday, I had to examine the plot for the first time. Unlucky Elvira has all three guys on her tail and in the end the tenor, the one she wants, kills himself right in front of her because he promised the baritone he would. This nonsense is redeemed by two hours of nonstop hit tunes, which I gather made _Ernani_ Verdi's most popular opera until he came along with_ Trovatore_. I guess this proves your point.


Beauty and soaring emotions go far with humans. Any clinical psychologist, advertising executive, or cognitive scientist worth their salt will tell you that the first thing people usually notice and subconsciously fixate on when having a conversation with someone is their tone of voice- 'the emotional resonance' if you will- and their countenance- 'Are they beautiful?'

Logic, soundness, consistency, and the analytical rigor of what they're saying go out the window. . .

- _Ernani _and _Trovatore_ it is!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> I'd go for La Traviata just because it has fewer characters and is more real... IF the staging and performance makes a convincing enough link between Violetta's state of mind ("Sempre libera"), Alfredo's devotion, and Papa Germont's demands. If that connection isn't made, it kind of falls apart. I usually find the Alfredo in any production to be the weakest link.


Alfredo is often bland, true, but his music is lovely when well-sung like this:






For me the letdown moment in _Traviata_ is Germont's aria "Di Provenza il mar il suol," which has never moved me. It always sounds like hard work for the baritone, with the poor guy just having to stand there looking pompous and showing everyone how difficult it is to sing. The climactic phrases are usually a painful and embarrassing bellow. Recently, though, I discovered that there have been a few baritones capable of singing it well. Everyone should hear this:






When they invent a time machine, I'll be buying a ticket for 1911.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

_Rigoletto_ is not only my favorite of the three, it's my favorite Verdi opera and my second-favorite opera (next to Rossini's _La Cenerentola_). It's one of those operas I responded to "right off the bat." It just seems like the perfect tragedy to me. There's not a moment in it that I don't love.

_La Traviata_ is next, though I think that if this one has a flaw it's that it is a little too episodic. For example, I would like to have seen what happened between Act I, scene one and Act II, scene one. (How _exactly_ did Violetta and Alfredo end up living together?).

_Il Trovatore_ is last; to be honest, it took me a while really to get into this one, even after having seen a couple of live performances of it (one of which was one of the best performances of an opera I've seen live). I don't dislike it by any means, but even now I'd have to say that it's probably my least favorite of Verdi's more standard repertory works.

*Edited to add:* I sort of feel the way Woodduck does about "Di Provenza" from_ Traviata_, though I do believe that one of the keys to making it interesting rather than "square" is to differentiate between the emotion of the first verse, which is sympathetic and coaxing, and the emotion of the second verse, which is self-pitying and even a bit angry. The baritone I just saw as Germont at Virginia Opera (his name was Malcolm Mackenzie) made this distinction very well.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

_Rigoletto_ is my favorite of the three, followed by _Il Trovatore_ and _La Traviata_. The plot of _Il Trovatore_ may be farfetched, but that opera has some gorgeous music. I think "_Il balen del suo sorriso_" may be one of the most beautiful baritone arias ever written. (Especially when Sherrill Milnes sings it!  )


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> _La Traviata_ is next, though I think that if this one has a flaw it's that it is a little too episodic. For example, I would like to have seen what happened between Act I, scene one and Act II, scene one. (How _exactly_ did Violetta and Alfredo end up living together?).


I'm pretty sure the libretto follows the same time span as the Dumas play. I'm not sure we need to know what happens between the end on Act I and the beginning of Act II. We all know that Violetta, for all her protestations in _Sempre libera_ is madly in love, so it should come as no surprise that she ends up living with Alfredo. Piave is also very good at succinctly explaining their living arrangements, so we know right at the beginning of the act that Violetta is not living off Alfredo. I think Piave did a sterling job.

I also agree that _Di Provenza_ can be a bit of a drag, but its cabaletta (a weak piece of writing by Verdi) is even worse, when Germont largely just repeats what he said in the aria. I doubt Alfredo would have sat around listening for one second more. Dramatically it makes no sense, which is why I understand the old traditional cut, though I also understand the _musical[/I objections to it._


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

For my money, the best "Il balen" is Zancanaro's - the clean line, the brilliant top. But my favorite performance of it is in that dreadful 1975 TV production that only plays up how stupid the plot is. Horrid wigs and flaming backdrops galore!

As for "Di Provenza," in my view, the more emotionally stunted Germont is, the better, so yeah, I don't mind this aria, and I agree that he needs get a bit nasty in stanza two. In fact, I think when it's sung with too much legato, the performer may be missing the point.

As for Alfredo, he's sort of being "done to" in this whole story, and the one time he stands up for himself, he gets slapped down by Papa, so... it's tough. But really the whole believability of La Traviata hinges on Act II where Germont tells Violetta that she'll only get bored, and she caves, because after all, she believes that herself ("Sempre libera").


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> For my money, the best "Il balen" is Zancanaro's - the clean line, the brilliant top. But my favorite performance of it is in that dreadful 1975 TV production that only plays up how stupid the plot is. Horrid wigs and flaming backdrops galore!
> 
> As for "Di Provenza," in my view, the more emotionally stunted Germont is, the better, so yeah, I don't mind this aria, and I agree that he needs get a bit nasty in stanza two. In fact, I think when it's sung with too much legato, the performer may be missing the point.
> 
> As for Alfredo, he's sort of being "done to" in this whole story, and the one time he stands up for himself, he gets slapped down by Papa, so... it's tough. But really the whole believability of La Traviata hinges on Act II where Germont tells Violetta that she'll only get bored, and she caves, because after all, she believes that herself ("Sempre libera").


Actually Germont is much more brutal. He tells Violetta that _she_ will age and that _Alfredo_ will get bored. She renounces Alfredo not because she wants to "live free", but because Germont manages to convince her that she will not only ruin Alfredo's life but his young sister's. The whole opera hinges on the sacrifice Violetta makes. Not to understand that central truth is to completely misunderstand the whole opera.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

GregMitchell said:


> Actually Germont is much more brutal. He tells Violetta that _she_ will age and that _Alfredo_ will get bored. She renounces Alfredo not because she wants to "live free", but because Germont manages to convince her that she will not only ruin Alfredo's life but his young sister's. The whole opera hinges on the sacrifice Violetta makes. Not to understand that central truth is to completely misunderstand the whole opera.


I do understand that central truth, but there's a point to "Sempre Libera" that goes beyond mere frivolous declamation on Violetta's part. She's a woman always inclined to live on the edge, and Germont is successful in convincing her that life with Alfredo wouldn't work - something she's already inclined to believe anyway.

Why _would_ she choose death over what Germont suggests, ie "chin up girl"? _Sempre libera...
_ I suppose it depends on whether you see her death as a tragedy or a triumph, in the context of the world she lives in... She dies a free soul. That is a huge part of her character, and (IMHO) any Traviata worth its salt brings that out in the scene where Germont is laying out his case - what I'm trying to say is, Violetta makes some calculations of her own, too, based on her own self-knowledge.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> I do understand that central truth, but there's a point to "Sempre Libera" that goes beyond mere frivolous declamation on Violetta's part. She's a woman always inclined to live on the edge, and Germont is successful in convincing her that life with Alfredo wouldn't work - something she's already inclined to believe anyway.
> 
> Why _would_ she choose death over what Germont suggests, ie "chin up girl"? _Sempre libera...
> _ I suppose it depends on whether you see her death as a tragedy or a triumph, in the context of the world she lives in... She dies a free soul. That is a huge part of her character, and (IMHO) any Traviata worth its salt brings that out in the scene where Germont is laying out his case - what I'm trying to say is, Violetta makes some calculations of her own, too, based on her own self-knowledge.


How modern you are. Unfortunately *La Dame aux Camelias* is a nineteenth century novel, written from a nineteenth century viewpoint.

Yes she makes some choices of her own, but it has absolutely nothing to do with her wanting to "live free". Her renunciation is a totalally selfless act. To put some selfish spin on it is to misunderstand Verdi's music, Piave's libretto and Dumas's original book. Maybe Germont does manage to make her realise that she is living a dream, but she also knows that she doesn't have long to live, another central truth which she attempts to hide from Alfredo. No doubt that too had a great deal to do with her decision to give up being a courtesan and grasp a few short years of happiness.

There is a very important point made in the book, which Piave cleverly touches on in the libretto of the opera, and that is that Violetta/Marguerite never accepts a penny from Alfredo/Armand. She will not do so, because she gives her love freely. This is the point of Alfredo flinging the money at her in the party scene and why it is such an insult.

I hate these modern productions that seek to make Violetta a hard-nosed business woman, like Diana Damrau was made to behave in that recent awful La Scala production or Netrebko in that modern-dress version from Salzburg. It simply does not fit with the character that Piave and Verdi created. Ultimately the character must come from the music, and a cool, pragmatic Violetta is not the character Verdi created. Just listen to the music. _Non sapete _ flutters like a wounded bird, _Dite alla giovane_ is full of resigned desperation, *Amami, Alfredo* bursts with love.

She doesn't choose death, by the way, death chooses her. Carmen's death might be a triumph, a refusal of a free spirit to give in to the will of a man, Violetta's is the diametric opposite, both a tragedy and a sacrifice. The only triumph is the triumph of middle class morality. It is certainly not Violetta's.


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

> For my money, the best "Il balen" is Zancanaro's


A wonderfull singer and extremely professional...sang with him a number of times. But the most amazing rendition that I have ever heard was from Capucilli, who sang the first 4 phrases of the aria in one breath at a tortuous tempo complete with rallentando (Santi in the pit)...and then the next 4 in one breath....I was turning blue standing in the wings listening. Never saw breath control that even comes close .. before or since. The legato was stunning...brought the house down.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

GregMitchell said:


> How modern you are. Unfortunately *La Dame aux Camelias* is a nineteenth century novel, written from a nineteenth century viewpoint.
> 
> Yes she makes some choices of her own, but it has absolutely nothing to do with her wanting to "live free". Her renunciation is a totalally selfless act. To put some selfish spin on it is to misunderstand Verdi's music, Piave's libretto and Dumas's original book. Maybe Germont does manage to make her realise that she is living a dream, but she also knows that she doesn't have long to live, another central truth which she attempts to hide from Alfredo. No doubt that too had a great deal to do with her decision to give up being a courtesan and grasp a few short years of happiness.
> 
> ...


Superb exegesis.

I couldn't agree more with the fact- as clearly and self-evidently adduced by the original novel, libretto, and music- that Violetta is pure love and self-sacrifice.

Whatever Damrau and Netrebko are bringing to the table with their interpretations, it isn't Verdi.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Rigoletto by a mile. It was the first opera I really got to know as a boy and it bowled me over with its power and characterisation. Great libretto and Verdi coming into his maturity after his galley years. The genius of the thing is that the main interest lies in the relationship between father and daughter - the duke is a side show really. Callas and Gobbi and very memorable - pity about the cuts. But so are Moffo and Merrill - pity about Solti's over-driven conducting. 

My second would be Trovatore. No point in buying a highlights disc as it is all highlights. Great fun if you have a macabre sense of humour.

Never been able to get on with Traviata. It just doesn't do it for me. Sorry!


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

For me the letdown moment in Traviata is Germont's aria "Di Provenza il mar il suol," which has never moved me. It always sounds like hard work for the baritone, with the poor guy just having to stand there looking pompous and showing everyone how difficult it is to sing. The climactic phrases are usually a painful and embarrassing bellow. Recently, though, I discovered that there have been a few baritones capable of singing it well. Everyone should hear this:






When they invent a time machine, I'll be buying a ticket for 1911.

Yes, I quite like Dmitri Hvorostovsky's Germont myself... but I would also consider Pavel Lisitsian:






Those Russians and the basses and baritones! Even their chants and choral music stresses the lower register male vocalists.


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## Figleaf (Jun 10, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> For me the letdown moment in Traviata is Germont's aria "Di Provenza il mar il suol," which has never moved me. It always sounds like hard work for the baritone, with the poor guy just having to stand there looking pompous and showing everyone how difficult it is to sing. The climactic phrases are usually a painful and embarrassing bellow. Recently, though, I discovered that there have been a few baritones capable of singing it well. Everyone should hear this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lisitsian's beautifully sung Germont is truly marvellous, and Hvorostovsky (who does nothing particularly wrong, but isn't especially interesting or vocally attractive IMO) is no match for him at all. Lisitsian's lovely voice and refined singing would surely have put him in the front rank of baritones at any time, although my favourite Di Provenza will probably always be Battistini's. And let's not forget that Russia has produced great tenors too: Lisitsian recorded an excellent complete Traviata with the great Ivan Kozlovsky as Alfredo. Here is his De' miei bollenti spiriti:






For Il balen, my favourite recording is by Jean Noté. He has just the right balance of lyricism and macho sex appeal, and a gorgeous voice, especially the top notes. He also recorded an excellent complete Trovatore, which has been reissued on CD by Marston. Here is his earlier recording of the aria:


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

GregMitchell said:


> I'm pretty sure the libretto follows the same time span as the Dumas play. I'm not sure we need to know what happens between the end on Act I and the beginning of Act II. We all know that Violetta, for all her protestations in _Sempre libera_ is madly in love, so it should come as no surprise that she ends up living with Alfredo. Piave is also very good at succinctly explaining their living arrangements, so we know right at the beginning of the act that Violetta is not living off Alfredo. I think Piave did a sterling job.
> 
> I also agree that _Di Provenza_ can be a bit of a drag, but its cabaletta (a weak piece of writing by Verdi) is even worse, when Germont largely just repeats what he said in the aria. I doubt Alfredo would have sat around listening for one second more. Dramatically it makes no sense, which is why I understand the old traditional cut, though I also understand the _musical[/I objections to it._


_

I like Germont's cabaletta (one verse of which was sung in the recent production I saw) only because I feel that, once one has heard it, the scene seems to end too abruptly if it's not included. That's just my impression. However, I do feel that one verse of it is quite enough.

Regarding Germont, I've always had a soft spot for him (so long as he's relatively sympathetically portrayed) and have never thought of him as a villain. On the contrary, I see him as nothing more nor less than a typical product of his time -- an older man with "older" values, and someone who judged Violetta hastily, without having met her (and don't we all judge people in a similar manner from time to time).

I also wanted to mention that La Boheme is another episodic opera, in which we have to infer what has happened to the characters between the acts._


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

graziesignore said:


> For my money, the best "Il balen" is Zancanaro's - the clean line, the brilliant top. But my favorite performance of it is in that dreadful 1975 TV production that only plays up how stupid the plot is. Horrid wigs and flaming backdrops galore!
> 
> As for "Di Provenza," in my view, the more emotionally stunted Germont is, the better, so yeah, I don't mind this aria, and I agree that he needs get a bit nasty in stanza two. In fact, I think when it's sung with too much legato, the performer may be missing the point.
> 
> As for Alfredo, he's sort of being "done to" in this whole story, and the one time he stands up for himself, he gets slapped down by Papa, so... it's tough. But really the whole believability of La Traviata hinges on Act II where Germont tells Violetta that she'll only get bored, and she caves, because after all, she believes that herself ("Sempre libera").


You say that "Di Provenza" might not need to be sung with so much legato; the way I'd express it is that it needs not less legato but more dynamic nuance and variety of emphasis. Here's a master class video in which Pavarotti tries to convey exactly this point to a young baritone:


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Rig.......................................Tro,Tra.


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## Metronome (Mar 29, 2015)

Rigoletto at first place for me, there's nothing I don't like in this Opera, great music and a realistic plot put me exactly in the center of the stage, an emotional turmoil that lasts until the end. Modern, powerful, tragic.

Traviata is a masterpiece, no doubt, but I'm not able to empathize, in any way, with Violetta. Like for Butterfly I absolutely don't care about the fate of these women, I enjoy the music, I pay attention to singers performances but I'm not with them, I stay outside of their world. And for this reason I put Trovatore to the second place in this contest.


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## undifelice (Mar 11, 2015)

How do I even begin to explain how much I love Traviata?

I adore Violetta, I admire and love her for her sacrifice, her weaknesses, and her fundamental goodness. She's complex, fascinating, and her narrative remains relevant. Verdi's music captures all of these elements, and I'm never tired of it.

While Natalie Dessay wasn't the vocal ideal in this role, her dramatic conviction and overall take on Violetta from the Aix production is my favourite. Her absolute physical and emotional devastation at the beginning of the final act, after Alfredo has publicly humiliated and abused her, is astonishingly powerful and heartbreaking. 

I also adore Papa Germont, and I understand completely his perspective, and love his journey towards accepting and appreciating the woman his son has chosen to love. 

I could go on...


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Rigoletto>Trovatore>Traviata


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## sabrina (Apr 26, 2011)

I love Traviata! Music is gorgeous, fully sustaining the plot. Violetta is charming, excelling in beauty and kindness, but her case is full of drama. When she tries to love somebody she has to be stopped due to some strict social rules. All the story reflects realities of the XIX-th century. The story background ideas are universal, still _this_ libretto should try to stick to that period for the music/lyrics sake. I always have a tear in my eyes when Violetta dies, as she didn't chose this destiny. I loved Maria Callas and Virginia Zeani's Violetta. From the newer productions I chose Angela's breathtaking singing/acting in the Solti production. Unfortunately Alfredo is not a strong role, and sometimes is played by stiff bad actors/good singers...Anna's Violetta was pure garbage. Diana's Violetta is so unfortunate. She is a gorgeous singer but Violetta is not for her. That production made even more damage to the hardly butchered opera.
Rigoletto is also a drama, but I never cry when Gilda dies, as she "happily"/desperately choses to die to save her love. I have great difficulties choosing between this two operas. Both are so beautiful. Now I tend to play more Rigoletto, as Traviata is sometimes too sad for my mood. Both operas have arias that can bring a house down.
Il Trovatore is in a bad position only because I don't have a DVD with it and I only listened to it a few times. I've watched it live, many years ago, and listened once or twice to an mp3 with Maria Callas' Trovatore. Music is beautiful...but I can't say more...I wasn't so attracted and I don't really know why.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Kleiber's rendition of La Traviata is a benchmark recording in my book.


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> Kleiber's rendition of La Traviata is a benchmark recording in my book.


I've had that recording since my earliest opera-loving days and agree that it's in some way unique among TRAVIATA recordings. I'm not claiming it's "the best"; I'm just saying that it has qualities that other recordings of TRAVIATA I've heard don't have. What do _you_ like about it?


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Sir Antonio Pappano talking about Verdi’s Trovatore: ‘Unless it’s driven by the conductor, there’s no cast in the world that can save it.’


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Becca said:


> Sir Antonio Pappano talking about Verdi's Trovatore: 'Unless it's driven by the conductor, there's no cast in the world that can save it.'


Perhaps that's only because in the time of Pappano there's no cast in the world that can really sing it.

Ponselle, Schumann-Heink, Caruso, Ruffo, Didur... Nobody spoke of "saving" _Trovatore_ in 1918.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Becca said:


> Sir Antonio Pappano talking about Verdi's Trovatore: 'Unless it's driven by the conductor, there's no cast in the world that can save it.'


Not even with Callas and di Stefano?

The presumption of 'conductors.'
_
;D_


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Perhaps that's only because in the time of Pappano there's no cast in the world that can really sing it.
> 
> Ponselle, Schumann-Heink, Caruso, Ruffo, Didur... Nobody spoke of "saving" _Trovatore_ in 1918.


"Antonio, I'm looking forward to your _brilliantly-done_ new _Traviata _with sub-par singers. Why isn't there a big 'S' on your chest?"


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Becca said:


> Sir Antonio Pappano talking about Verdi's Trovatore: 'Unless it's driven by the conductor, there's no cast in the world that can save it.'


I agree completely! Without strong conducting, TROVATORE tends to sound "square" and fragmented -- and I think that would be more or less true no matter how stellar the singing itself is. My own experience: I've seen two performances of TROVATORE by two different opera companies. The first performance was strongly sung _and_ conducted, and was truly exciting. The second performance was weakly conducted (by a relatively inexperienced assistant), and even though the singing was strong -- the baritone who sang di Luna was magnificent; I'll never forget his "Il balen" -- the performance as a whole failed to "cohere." I believe this is the type of situation Pappano was referring to. Even in a so-called singers' opera, we should be wary of thinking the singers can do it _all_ on their own. Oh I know -- someone's going to reply something along the lines of "But singers as great as Martinelli and Ponselle _could_ do it all on their own." Maybe, maybe not. It's all in the past now, so who's to say? It could be that, even on "Ponselle nights," there _were_ people who pointed out that what TROVATORE fundamentally needs is an outstanding conductor to bring out its "fire."


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

Woodduck said:


> Perhaps that's only because in the time of Pappano there's no cast in the world that can really sing it.
> 
> Ponselle, Schumann-Heink, Caruso, Ruffo, Didur... Nobody spoke of "saving" _Trovatore_ in 1918.


But notice that Pappano said "_driven_ by the conductor," not "_dominated_ by the conductor." I don't believe anyone really thinks of TROVATORE as a "conductor's opera" a la MACBETH. Yet IMO it's not at all unreasonable to expect the conductor to be the _driving_ force behind an opera performance. It's the conductor, not the singers, who sets the pace and give the work its pulse. Maybe "save" wasn't a good choice of word on Pappano's part; perhaps what he should have said was something like "a great conductor is as much of an essential for a successful TROVATORE as are great singers."


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Enrico Caruso famously said that all a successful performance of _Il Trovatore_ requires is "the four greatest singers in the world." I'm sure he said it with humor, but I don't doubt that he was serious (or that he both humorously and seriously included himself as one of the four!). There are operas which can make their effect with modest vocal talents, but this is not one of them. _Trovatore_ demands everything of its principals: voices of power and range, firmly grounded in the techniques of bel canto and capable of great force of expression. Caruso and some of his colleagues at the Met had all the necessary equipment.


























Pappano is certainly right in saying that fine conducting is needed to keep _Trovatore_'s musical fires burning. But surely this is true of almost any opera. I wonder if his remark was a specific response to Caruso's. In any case I submit Caruso's to balance Pappano's, and to suggest that if Pappano had had Caruso and friends at his disposal he might have qualified his statement a little.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Woodduck said:


> *Enrico Caruso famously said that all a successful performance of Il Trovatore requires is "the four greatest singers in the world."* I'm sure he said it with humor, but I don't doubt that he was serious (or that he both humorously and seriously included himself as one of the four!). There are operas which can make their effect with modest vocal talents, but this is not one of them. _Trovatore_ demands everything of its principals: voices of power and range, firmly grounded in the techniques of bel canto and capable of great force of expression. Caruso and some of his colleagues at the Met had all the necessary equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will proudly admit to being one of the "5" poll members who loves Trovatore and have more CD sets of it than any other opera, also very gracious of the duck to throw some positive light on this opera (even though I know he thinks the story a bit overblown)

In many ways Trovatore is a nod to the past and Verdi's ultimate statement to his glorious bel canto /cabaletta style (which he does not revisit in later operas) and not only does Trovatore require 4 very skilled singers but notice how Verdi almost equally dishes out the showstopping arias to all 4 characters.......I don't know of any other Verdi opera that can deliver the number and length of ovations that a well performed live Trovatore can, it is just nonstop vocal glory for those with the swagger to pull it off

I find Pappano comments puzzling since Verdi's inspired tuneful orchestral score is so full of wonderful memorable tunes you would have to really try hard to make it sound bad or boring.......


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

DarkAngel wrote:

_I find Pappano comments puzzling since Verdi's inspired tuneful orchestral score is so full of wonderful memorable tunes you would have to really try hard to make it sound bad or boring......._

You would think so, but in my (admittedly short) experience, Verdi, and TROVATORE especially, tends to sound like organ-grinder music if it's conducted in too much of a "four-square" manner. Also, it seems to me that TROVATORE is rather episodic in structure -- like DON GIOVANNI, though probably not as much -- and so needs a conductor who can make it "flow." How the conductor achieves this I have no idea, since I know next to nothing about conducting. But I do recall that of those two performances I mentioned above, the first one "flowed" while the second one seemed like just a collection of scenes. Surely this difference must have been due to the conducting.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

^^^^^I actually like it and the early operas better than the ones between Traviata and Falstaff.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Itullian said:


> ^^^^^I actually like it and the early operas better than the ones between Traviata and Falstaff.


You might be pleased to know that Stravinsky also preferred the earlier Verdi (or you might not, depending on how keen you are on being seen with Igor in public).


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Becca said:


> Sir Antonio Pappano talking about Verdi's Trovatore: 'Unless it's driven by the conductor, there's no cast in the world that can save it.'


He should have thought about _that_ before taking on Alagna as Manrico


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> He should have thought about _that_ before taking on Alagna as Manrico


Manrico has got to have a rip-roaring, heroic voice. Even the stylish Di Stefano struggles on Karajan / Callas. Apparently Richard Tucker was the original choice for this recording but as a Jew declined to work with a conductor who was an ex-member of the Nazi party. Bonisolli for Karajan 2 has got the right sort of voice and his top C is long and thrilling. Bonisolli quit Karajan's stage performances after a row with the conductor during which he threw his sword at Karajan, who didn't miss a beat but went on conducting as the tenor stormed out. He was replaced by Domingo. Best Manrico of all probably is Corelli on Karajan live with Price.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

DavidA said:


> Best Manrico of all probably is Corelli on Karajan live with Price.


Though he rather bruises the beautiful and lyrical, _Ah si ben mio_. Manrico is not just about belting out the top Cs Verdi didn't write.

My personal favourite would probably be Bjoerling, who has both ringing top Cs and an ability to caress the line in the more lyrical passages (and there are quite a few).


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Try this for size - Karajan's Vienna performance with Rajna Kabaivanska, Placido Domingo, Piero Cappuccilli, Fiorenza Cossotto, J van Dam, after Bonisolli had walked out., leaving quite a dream cast.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> Enrico Caruso famously said that all a successful performance of _Il Trovatore_ requires is "the four greatest singers in the world." I'm sure he said it with humor, but I don't doubt that he was serious (or that he both humorously and seriously included himself as one of the four!). There are operas which can make their effect with modest vocal talents, but this is not one of them. _Trovatore_ demands everything of its principals: voices of power and range, firmly grounded in the techniques of bel canto and capable of great force of expression. Caruso and some of his colleagues at the Met had all the necessary equipment.
> 
> Pappano is certainly right in saying that fine conducting is needed to keep _Trovatore_'s musical fires burning. But surely this is true of almost any opera. I wonder if his remark was a specific response to Caruso's. In any case I submit Caruso's to balance Pappano's, and to suggest that if Pappano had had Caruso and friends at his disposal he might have qualified his statement a little.


Yes, I do think Mr. Pappano's words are just a small _boutade,_ not to be taken very seriously, quoting Caruso's famous remark.

In fact, "Trovatore" has been considered a singer's opera almost since its premiere. The score is full of virtuoso singing, and irresistible melodies, based on short phrases, with almost obsessive patterns. True, the (dark) color of the music coming from the pit, that is responsible for that feeling of continuity, is also mandatory to get a really great performance of "Trovatore", but you don't need a Toscanini to get that from a competent orchestra.

Just think you have the choice for a "Trovatore" between the four best singers with a good conductor, or the best conductor with four good singers... Not a difficult choice, in my view.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

DavidA said:


> Try this for size - Karajan's Vienna performance with Rajna Kabaivanska, Placido Domingo, Piero Cappuccilli, Fiorenza Cossotto, J van Dam, after Bonisolli had walked out., leaving quite a dream cast.


I do have that DVD , thank heavens Bonisolli walked out, horrible voice.
No style whatsoever , just loud and without nuances .


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## Bellinilover (Jul 24, 2013)

I _love_ Placido Domingo's Manrico on the Zubin Mehta version. I'd venture to say it's one of Domingo's greatest recorded roles.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Bellinilover said:


> I _love_ Placido Domingo's Manrico on the Zubin Mehta version. I'd venture to say it's one of Domingo's greatest recorded roles.


I think he's even better on the Giulini recording, for all that the top is a little more strained, but I like the dark, burnished sound he brings to the role, which fits in well with Giulini's slightly more sober reading of the score.

I heard him sing it at Covent Garden. He had said in interviews before the performance that the top Cs were a trial for him, and that, as Verdi hadn't written them, he would be omitting them. It didn't bother me in the least and I thought he gave a wonderful performance. Some boors in the audience took it upon themselves to boo after _Di quella pira_, which he had sung with just the right touch of vigour (if without the top Cs), but the majority of the audience managed to drown them out with their cheering.


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## Retired (Feb 15, 2015)

> that the top Cs were a trial for him


I thought he sang it down....maybe he recorded in the original key. The performance he did in the house where I was working, "Di quella pira" was in B...and he had difficulty on that night. He jumped in at the last moment and flew in from Vienna where he sang the night before.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Pugg said:


> I do have that DVD , thank heavens Bonisolli walked out, horrible voice.
> No style whatsoever , just loud and without nuances .


He's not that bad actually on Karajan's recording for EMI. Bit of a poor man's Corelli!


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Retired said:


> I thought he sang it down....maybe he recorded in the original key. The performance he did in the house where I was working, "Di quella pira" was in B...and he had difficulty on that night. He jumped in at the last moment and flew in from Vienna where he sang the night before.


At Covent Garden he sang it in the correct key and ducked the top Cs. An announcement to that effect was even made, and Domingo said he now preferred to be honest rather than cheat in order to sing notes that were not in the score anyway. I remember it very clearly. It was a ghastly production which never saw the light of day again. Rosalind Plowright was the Leonora, and was distinctly off form. Domingo was definitely the star of the night.

It was 1989. This is a quote from Rodney Milnes's review in Opera Magazine

_The ensuing cabaletta was part of the advance publicity. At a press conference the tenor announced that he would not be inserting any unwritten though traditional top Cs. Hurrah says I, who have been longing for someone of Domingo's stature and courage to jettison this ludicrous macho fetish. May others follow suit soon, even those who sing Bs and B flats while pretending otherwise: there is far more to Trovatore than screamed acuti. _


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## Diminuendo (May 5, 2015)

For me it's impossible to say. Either Rigoletto or La Traviata. They are both just so good.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

I have to admit that I really like Rigoletto musically but I think that Gilda sacrifices herself for a complete jerk and Rigoletto have to see his only child die right in front of him is too tragic for me to handle.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I've just realised I voted in this (Il trovatore) but never explained why. 

I don't like soppy ten/sop love stories (La traviata) and although I adore all the jester's music, I think Gilda is the fool to sacrifice herself for an unfaithful toad. (Rigoletto).

Love love love the music in Il trovatore and also the fact that it's totally bonkers.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Trovatore has such a stupid plot but is such a great showcase for world class singers with intoxicating tunes. Traviata with the right cast ( it is hard to cast) is a close second.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

sospiro said:


> Love love love the music in Il trovatore and also the fact that it's totally bonkers.


Bonkers indeed. My favorite Azucena:


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Musically I like Rigoletto and Trovotore equally, but I've listened to Trovotore more frequently so far so that one gets the nod. I like Traviata but I don't love it. And considering I love several of Verdi's operas, merely liking one places it lower on the pecking order.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

Dislike Rigoletto. Too depressing and the main character doesn't even get top billing much of the time!

I enjoy La Traviata, but can't for the life of me figure out how it has become, essentially, the world's most popular opera. It's difficult for a modern audience to relate to the heroine's decision; the tunes really aren't that great (except for the Brindisi); and it's got a thoroughly depressing ending. It isn't even Verdi's best opera.

I'll go with Il Trovatore for all the reasons stated. Musically worthwhile, at least, and if you get a cast that's firing on all cylinders, there is no greater head-banging fun to be had from the 19th century.


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## cheftimmyr (Oct 28, 2015)

Rigoletto was the first opera I ever listened to in completion, so it holds a special place in my heart. However, La Traviata won me over after that, in regards to the 3 selections presented to vote on. 

The music in Il Trovatore is beautiful, but I've only ever heard the Domingo (Levine) recording; if appropriate for this thread I'd take recommendations on that front.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

La Traviara leading.......narrowly.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Dislike Rigoletto. Too depressing and the main character doesn't even get top billing much of the time!
> 
> I enjoy La Traviata, but can't for the life of me figure out how it has become, essentially, the world's most popular opera. *It's difficult for a modern audience to relate to the heroine's decision; the tunes really aren't that great *(except for the Brindisi); and it's got a thoroughly depressing ending. It isn't even Verdi's best opera.
> 
> I'll go with Il Trovatore for all the reasons stated. Musically worthwhile, at least, and if you get a cast that's firing on all cylinders, there is no greater head-banging fun to be had from the 19th century.


I wouldn't be too quick to judge modern audiences' reactions to Violetta's actions. In the context of her culture, her choice is not only comprehensible but noble, and given knowledge that one's illness is almost inevitably fatal - that one would have only a short time with one's lover - it might be a noble choice even today. Her sacrificing a romance to spare Alfredo's reputation and his family is precisely what makes Violetta more than a high-class sl*t, and what has made The Lady of the Camellias a cultural icon. The story may now have the scent of pressed flowers, but it still compels the sympathy of audiences, whether in the form of the novel, the play, the opera, or the glorious Garbo in her sublime film incarnation.

I can't agree that the music is inferior Verdi. It is perfect for the story and the characters, and the tunes are unforgettable. I think all three of the operas in question are musically superb, and show Verdi at a time in his career when he had learned how to clothe very different dramas in music of characteristic, distinctive style and atmosphere.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

graziesignore said:


> Dislike Rigoletto. Too depressing and the main character doesn't even get top billing much of the time!
> 
> I enjoy La Traviata, but can't for the life of me figure out how it has become, essentially, the world's most popular opera. It's difficult for a modern audience to relate to the heroine's decision; the tunes really aren't that great (except for the Brindisi); and it's got a thoroughly depressing ending. It isn't even Verdi's best opera.
> 
> I'll go with Il Trovatore for all the reasons stated. Musically worthwhile, at least, and if you get a cast that's firing on all cylinders, there is no greater head-banging fun to be had from the 19th century.


It is a masterpiece, every note fits .:devil:


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Rigoletto! ha, leading now! may be due to my vote as well but well, La Traviata who could deny its beauty?! 
I love it too. But I think mostly people enjoy it more because it's due to a story, many would identify at least at some stages of their lives...I think. Therefore it's world's favorite....

But well, talking about 3 greatest....nice....

but since recently his 10th opera is my personal favorite, may be because of a nice "witches" character.:lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

helenora said:


> Rigoletto! ha, leading now! may be due to my vote as well but well, La Traviata who could deny its beauty?!
> I love it too. But I think mostly people enjoy it more because it's due to a story, many would identify at least at some stages of their lives...I think. Therefore it's world's favorite....
> 
> But well, talking about 3 greatest....nice....
> ...


Macbeth is from a complete different order, dark and murders intentions, , let's say horror movie .
Stunning though .


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Pugg said:


> Macbeth is from a complete different order, dark and murders intentions, , let's say horror movie .
> Stunning though .


Yeah, I know, thought is the most powerful weapon ...if we stop thinking in categories of a play with characters as real characters/people but rather representations of various states of a human mind, then it´s not that dark after all, it becomes just a reality .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

helenora said:


> Yeah, I know, thought is the most powerful weapon ...if we stop thinking in categories of a play with characters as real characters/people but rather representations of various states of a human mind, then it´s not that dark after all, it becomes just a reality .


Reality is dark. :devil:

That's why I prefer fantasy. :angel:


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> Rigoletto! ha, leading now! may be due to my vote as well but well, La Traviata who could deny its beauty?!
> I love it too. But I think mostly people enjoy it more because it's due to a story, many would identify at least at some stages of their lives...I think. Therefore it's world's favorite....
> 
> But well, talking about 3 greatest....nice....
> ...












_Macbeth_ is my 2nd favourite of all.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Reality is dark. :devil:
> 
> That's why I prefer fantasy. :angel:


But we´ll light up a torch and illuminate the way ...

reminds me of Diogenes


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

sospiro said:


> _Macbeth_ is my 2nd favourite of all.


Let me guess,....................................... R.O.H Simon Keenlyside/ Pappano?


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

sospiro said:


> _Macbeth_ is my 2nd favourite of all.


which is the first? if I may ask


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Pugg said:


> Let me guess,....................................... R.O.H Simon Keenlyside/ Pappano?


Yep!

A brilliant production.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

helenora said:


> which is the first? if I may ask


_Simon Boccanegra_.

I think the music is sublime but the opera's story is heartbreaking.

Verdi must have wondered what it would be like to discover that the daughter he thought was dead was actually alive and living near him.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

*Musically: *

1. Il Trovatore by faaaaaar. As Toscanini said, you need to gather the 4 most beautiful voices in the world for it.

2. La Traviata

3. Rigoletto

*Dramatically: *

1. La Traviata
2. Il Trovatore
3. Rigoletto


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Retired said:


> A wonderfull singer and extremely professional...sang with him a number of times. But the most amazing rendition that I have ever heard was from Capucilli, who sang the first 4 phrases of the aria in one breath at a tortuous tempo complete with rallentando (Santi in the pit)...and then the next 4 in one breath....I was turning blue standing in the wings listening. Never saw breath control that even comes close .. before or since. The legato was stunning...brought the house down.


Cappuccilli is the best Conte ever!! Followed by Zancanaro.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

DarkAngel said:


> I will proudly admit to being one of the "5" poll members who loves Trovatore and have more CD sets of it than any other opera, also very gracious of the duck to throw some positive light on this opera (even though I know he thinks the story a bit overblown)
> 
> In many ways Trovatore is a nod to the past and Verdi's ultimate statement to his glorious bel canto /cabaletta style (which he does not revisit in later operas) and not only does Trovatore require 4 very skilled singers but notice how Verdi almost equally dishes out the showstopping arias to all 4 characters.......I don't know of any other Verdi opera that can deliver the number and length of ovations that a well performed live Trovatore can, it is just nonstop vocal glory for those with the swagger to pull it off
> 
> I find Pappano comments puzzling since Verdi's inspired tuneful orchestral score is so full of wonderful memorable tunes you would have to really try hard to make it sound bad or boring.......


Couldn't agree more. One of the main reasons I love Trovatore so much is that everyone gets to sing and there is not a single boring moment. Not to mention the great chorus and Fernando's super catchy "all'erta" that kicks the whole thing off


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

helenora said:


> Rigoletto! ha, leading now! may be due to my vote as well but well, La Traviata who could deny its beauty?!
> I love it too. But I think mostly people enjoy it more because it's due to a story, many would identify at least at some stages of their lives...I think. Therefore it's world's favorite....
> 
> But well, talking about 3 greatest....nice....
> ...


Good to see a fellow Macbeth-head  It is my #1 Opera by any composer even.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> *Musically: *
> 
> 1. Il Trovatore by faaaaaar. As Toscanini said, you need to gather the 4 most beautiful voices in the world for it.


Actually it was Caruso who said: "All it takes is the four greatest singers in the world."

He said that when the world actually had those singers: Ponselle, Schumann-Heink, Ruffo, and himself. Good luck with that nowadays (applications always accepted).


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Sloe said:


> I have to admit that I really like Rigoletto musically but I think that Gilda sacrifices herself for a complete jerk and Rigoletto have to see his only child die right in front of him is too tragic for me to handle.


That's Hugo for ya'. Esmeralda in Notre Dame de Paris (a.k.a The Hunchback …) dies in a similar way for a similarly vile schmuck. And it's not just the women. Gilliatt in Toilers of the Sea offs himself over a frivolous and inconstant wench. Ain't love grand!


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Tuoksu said:


> Couldn't agree more. One of the main reasons I love Trovatore so much is that everyone gets to sing and there is not a single boring moment. Not to mention the great chorus and Fernando's super catchy "all'erta" that kicks the whole thing off


absolutely! theatrical ! Theater!!!!


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Good to see a fellow Macbeth-head  It is my #1 Opera by any composer even.


I am in also , not the very best #1 but very high on the list


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## Meyerbeer Smith (Mar 25, 2016)

1. _Rigoletto_. Music drama - gripping theatre and an inspired score.

2. _Trovatore _is tuneful but almost single handedly responsible for opera's (undeserved) reputation for silly, illogical plots. (_Trov _is atypical - French critics complained about it in the 1850s.)

3. Heard and seen _Traviata _once. I probably know _Lombardi _or _Giovanna _better!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Tuoksu said:


> *Musically: *
> 
> 1. Il Trovatore by faaaaaar. As Toscanini said, you need to gather the *4 most beautiful voices* in the world for it.
> 
> ...


Ahem.

_Five_ most beautiful voices!


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## Loge (Oct 30, 2014)

SimonTemplar said:


> 2. _Trovatore _is tuneful but almost single handedly responsible for opera's (undeserved) reputation for silly, illogical plots. (_Trov _is atypical - French critics complained about it in the 1850s.)


I saw Il Trovatore live, thought the music and singing absolutely sublime. But boy it has the cheesiest cornball story I have ever seen. Even in 1853 eyes must have rolled at the plot. Also it has some of the campiest dialogue in opera like; Your brother is dead...But I am...still alive! Bwahahha

If Il Trovatore were made today


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

EdwardBast said:


> That's Hugo for ya'. Esmeralda in Notre Dame de Paris (a.k.a The Hunchback …) dies in a similar way for a similarly vile schmuck. And it's not just the women. Gilliatt in Toilers of the Sea offs himself over a frivolous and inconstant wench. Ain't love grand!


I had been watching Rigoletto a few times and had been thinking about this. Therefore I felt to say something and this thread seemed to be the best place to say anything. Violetta is dying through all of La Traviata but I find its sadness more bearable than Rigoletto. She is also not sacrificing herself to save one of the most unpleasant persons in any opera.


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## graziesignore (Mar 13, 2015)

> In many ways Trovatore is a nod to the past and Verdi's ultimate statement to his glorious bel canto /cabaletta style (which he does not revisit in later operas) and not only does Trovatore require 4 very skilled singers but notice how Verdi almost equally dishes out the showstopping arias to all 4 characters.......I don't know of any other Verdi opera that can deliver the number and length of ovations that a well performed live Trovatore can, it is just nonstop vocal glory for those with the swagger to pull it off


I agree: five showstopping singers are needed. After all, the entire exposition of the (admittedly silly) plot is sung by Ferrando. If Ferrando can't make it believable (or musical), people will just walk out of the damn thing.

This Ferrando nails it... (just skip ahead past the opening)


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> Actually it was Caruso who said: "All it takes is the four greatest singers in the world."
> 
> He said that when the world actually had those singers: Ponselle, Schumann-Heink, Ruffo, and himself. Good luck with that nowadays (applications always accepted).


Well I read this quote by *Toscanini* too that he said when asked to conduct Trovatore "Give me the four most beautiful voices in the world."

By the way I don't think Caruso makes that great of a Manrico. I don't have much to judge by, but from what I've heard, he's totally not among my favorites in this role.

Ponselle is a stunning Leonora albeit unmoving. Just a gorgeous voice. From the "Mira d'acerbe lagrime" with Stracciari you can hear that. The singing was great, but it was done too fast and almost devoid of any expression in my opinion.

I'd take the Karajan/Callas/Di Stefano/Panerai/Barbieri and the Karajan/Kabaivanska/Domingo/Cappuccilli/Cossotto over that anytime.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Pugg said:


> I am in also , not the very best #1 but very high on the list


Cool  it's odd to have Macbeth as #1 anyway


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

sospiro said:


> Ahem.
> 
> _Five_ most beautiful voices!


True  Fernando has to be first-class too


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Well I read this quote by *Toscanini* too that he said when asked to conduct Trovatore "Give me the four most beautiful voices in the world."
> 
> By the way I don't think Caruso makes that great of a Manrico. I don't have much to judge by, but from what I've heard, he's totally not among my favorites in this role.
> 
> ...


We all have our preferences. Caruso and Ponselle were vocal phenomena unequaled by anyone around today, and rare in any day. Primitive, acoustic horn recordings of the time can only bring us an approximation of their actual impact, which in both their cases was reportedly amazing, but there's no mistaking the richness, evenness, and rock solid technique of their singing.

For anyone interested, here's Caruso:





















And here's Ponselle:





















I hardly think that the "Mira d'acerbe lagrime" is devoid of expression. We have to remember that tempos on recordings of that era are often rushed to fit onto the side of a 78rpm record, and don't represent what singers did in the opera house when they could relax and feel the music more naturally. We have recordings of certain arias by singers as heard both live and on 78s made in the studio, and the difference is amazing. Just compare Frida Leider singing Isolde's "Liebestod" in the studio in 1931, sounding rushed and perfunctory, with a recording taken at the Met in 1933, in which the sound is wretched but the interpretation is magnificent:











Even as represented on acoustic recordings, I hear in Caruso and Ponselle voices ideal for the roles of Manrico and Leonora. Understanding how their impact in performance must have exceeded by far the traces of them we can hear, and with all due respect to the likes of Callas (whose art I admire second to none), I must say that I do not expect to hear their kind of technically impeccable, tonally refulgent, and thoroughly idiomatic Verdi singing in my lifetime.


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

None of these would rank in my top 3. Il vespri il Sicilani, Ernani, and Macbeth are the best for me.


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> We all have our preferences. Caruso and Ponselle were vocal phenomena unequaled by anyone around today, and rare in any day. Primitive, acoustic horn recordings of the time can only bring us an approximation of their actual impact, which in both their cases was reportedly amazing, but there's no mistaking the richness, evenness, and rock solid technique of their singing.
> 
> For anyone interested, here's Caruso:
> 
> ...


Of course these two were unmatched vocal miracles and stunning natural talents, as well as great technicians. 
I honestly just find Caruso's singing boring for Manrico. I adore him in other roles though. But that again is personal preference.

Those old recordings indeed seem to strip the "human" part of the sound, the richness and the overtones etc... which of course takes away from the expressiveness. But I reckon even Italian critics called Ponselle's voice "una voce fissata" claiming the voice was lacking a certain vivacity and life.

I have heard all these excepts of her Trovatore of course and everything I could find of her. She is my favorite soprano second only to Callas. When it comes to the sheer beauty of the voice and the solid technique she is unrivaled, even though she lacks a bit in coloratura. I find her ideal for Forza. She's my favorite Donna Leonora. But I listen to her trovatore and during "di tale amor" for instance I imagine her rolling her eyes  I'm sure it's not just me. Part of it is decidedly due to the recording quality and the tempi but I still hear a great difference in the level of expression between Ponselle's trovatore and ,say, Emmy Destinn's, recorded using the same technique (



)
Ponselle seems simply more sound-oriented to me, so to speak. Beauty over expression.

The later, better quality recordings from 1936 onward do her more justice, though. I heard a magnificent private recording where she accompanies herself and sings "D'amor sull'ali rosee" in a Claudia Muzio parody and it was beautiful beyond words. 





I agree that we will never hear the likes of them ever again though and it's a pity


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Were I requested to choose my 3 favorite sopranos of all times, I will go with Muzio, Ponselle and Callas at the moment of writing.

However, you are a band of pessimistics!. We don't know what the future will bring.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

schigolch said:


> Were I requested to choose my 3 favorite sopranos of all times, I will go with Muzio, Ponselle and Callas at the moment of writing.
> 
> However, you are a band of pessimists!. We don't know what the future will bring.


Exactly, perhaps we are all gone by then.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

schigolch said:


> Were I requested to choose my 3 favorite sopranos of all times, I will go with Muzio, Ponselle and Callas at the moment of writing.
> 
> *However, you are a band of pessimistics!. We don't know what the future will bring*.


Alien opera singers, the next big thing (from movie 5th element)


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## Tuoksu (Sep 3, 2015)

schigolch said:


> Were I requested to choose my 3 favorite sopranos of all times, I will go with Muzio, Ponselle and Callas at the moment of writing.
> 
> However, you are a band of pessimistics!. We don't know what the future will bring.


Some extraordinary talents might be there of course but I'm afraid the "training machine" is watering them down. They won't have the same old schooling and close-to-the-source bel canto tutoring nor the individual approach of teaching the old great singers had. Ponselle was Caruso's protégée, Callas had de Hidalgo, Del Monaco had Melocchi..etc..

Today hardly anyone teaches appoggio and one-register singer or any of that...


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Tuoksu said:


> Of course these two were unmatched vocal miracles and stunning natural talents, as well as great technicians.
> I honestly just find Caruso's singing boring for Manrico. I adore him in other roles though. But that again is personal preference.
> 
> Those old recordings indeed seem to strip the "human" part of the sound, the richness and the overtones etc... which of course takes away from the expressiveness. But I reckon even Italian critics called Ponselle's voice "una voce fissata" claiming the voice was lacking a certain vivacity and life.
> ...


Emmy Destinn must have been a intense performer. Apparently Ponselle admired her greatly. Her "D'amor sull'ali rosee" has a feverish quality which is certainly more dramatic than Ponselle's. That quality is partly inherent in her voice (as much of Callas' expressive potential lay in her fascinating and variable timbre), which, at least as far as recordings can reveal, is not the rich flow of molten gold which is Ponselle's. Is it better? Not to me. Despite the fact that Ponselle in her recording was only 21 - it was 1918, the year of her Met debut - and will exhibit in later recordings (some of them live) a greater spontaneity and sense of drama, this early rendering already shows an innate musicality, projected in a pure bel canto line, which is simply classic, and which I would never call "beauty over expression." On a certain high level, beauty _is_ expression, the expression of something deep and eternal, something beyond "interpretation" and histrionics. To paraphrase Bette Davis on Garbo, most of us have to act our rear ends off to accomplish what that woman could do with a lift of her eyebrow.

As for Caruso being "boring" - ever, in _anything_ - I'm speechless. It's true that we've heard wilder renditions of "Di quella pira," but we never hear all the difficult "little notes" actually sung as Verdi wrote them and as Caruso renders them. I'm quite certain that in the heat of performance he was fierce enough, and that his audiences did not find him "boring."

And that's the real point here. Is it really profitable to try to pass judgment on singers' ability to fulfill the requirements of their roles solely on the basis of these muffled fragments sung into an acoustic horn? I think it's safe to say that if they are excellent as we hear them now - equal to or better than anyone in recent history - they must have been phenomenal in life. Bring them back to do a Met matinee broadcast performance, and _then_ let's have this conversation about "beauty over expression," who is "boring" and who isn't, and who are the "four greatest singers in the world."


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## BaritoneAssoluto (Jun 6, 2016)

That's why i make sure to question my voice teachers on EVERYTHING so i don't go on stage at the Met one day and sound good one or two years and then whilst still in my prime, I still haggard and tired. That old schooling is no longing the norm it appears and we've allowed today's singing conservatories and universities to become incompetent in their approach of teaching students.

I just bought a book entitled "Securing Baritone, Bass-baritone, and Bass voices" by Robert Miller and I agree with the aforementioned things in that book.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

BaritoneAssoluto said:


> That's why i make sure to question my voice teachers on EVERYTHING so i don't go on stage at the Met one day and sound good one or two years and then whilst still in my prime, I still haggard and tired. That old schooling is no longing the norm it appears and we've allowed today's singing conservatories and universities to become incompetent in their approach of teaching students.
> 
> I just bought a book entitled "Securing Baritone, Bass-baritone, and Bass voices" by Robert Miller and I agree with the aforementioned things in that book.


You have to get a invite first, not to mention a few auditions and most off all a good voice.


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Hmmmm 

Musically 
1. Rigoletto (great music all around and with a lovely use of recurring themes in the final act with the Dukes famous aria. 
2. Il Trovatoe (snapping at Rigoletto's heels great roles for baritone Tenor Soprano and Mezzo Soprano and a good Bass can steal the show with a good performance at the beginning brilliant balance) 
3. La Traviata (Great busic wonderful even for the first two acts last acts music is good but just doesn't carry my attention in the same way the first two great acts do not weak by any means just not as great for me as the other three)

Dramatically
1. Rigoletto (Some of Verdi's deepest characters helped by an excellent Libretto and story a first time viewing would actually be a gut punch as Gilda is easy to empathize with and even Rigoletto has his moments. Incredibly depressing storyline that ends with no hope. I love it!) 

2. La Traviata (Characters not as fleshed out as Rigoletto but they have a certain amount of depth especially Violetta and Germont Alfredo however is lacking. By comparison to Rigoletto story is packing less of a punch.

3. Il Trovatore (Baby thrown into a fire in a case of mistaken identity. Old guard recognizes a gypsy woman he saw maybe once or twice after a period of thirty years and the poison acted quicker than she expected. The plot of Il Trovatore is an opera classic in the same way "The Room" is a film classic. The plot is so bad it comes out the other side as a mangled form of good. Il Trovatore as a result should perhaps be viewed as a black comedy as it would probably make more sense.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Buoso said:


> Il Trovatore (Baby thrown into a fire in a case of mistaken identity. Old guard recognizes a gypsy woman he saw maybe once or twice after a period of thirty years and the poison acted quicker than she expected. The plot of Il Trovatore is an opera classic in the same way "The Room" is a film classic. The plot is so bad it comes out the other side as a mangled form of good. Il Trovatore as a result should perhaps be viewed as a black comedy as it would probably make more sense.


Here you go:


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> Here you go:


Way more sense!

(The music is still sublime though and I personally believe the operas difficulty to understand has been overstated quite significantly. Try to understand by comparison Don Carlos and the whole business in Flanders which dominates in that opera and can give headaches to all concerned).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Buoso said:


> Way more sense!
> 
> (The music is still sublime though and I personally believe the operas difficulty to understand has been overstated quite significantly. Try to understand Don Carlos and the whole business in Flanders which dominates in that opera and which can give headaches to all concerned).


A lot of opera plots are headache-giving. I find myself having to review synopses even of some familiar operas every time I return to them after a lapse of time. Many operas don't have a clear dramatic/emotional trajectory, and break apart in the memory into a collection of "great moments." We're lucky to be able to remember how those moments are tied together. Verdi's musical inspiration largely transcends plot problems in _Don Carlo_, and even to some extent in early works such as _Ernani_ (now there's a doozie of a story!), while he had a much easier job with the stronger, simpler plots of _Rigoletto_, _La Traviata_, and _Otello_. Wagner knew how to pare stage action down to essentials and create a powerful, cohesive dramatic entity, and Puccini had an eye for an effective opera plot. Strauss's operas often seem to be about conversation, and I don't always remember (or, I admit, care) what they're going on about. Baroque and Classical period operas? Give me that synopsis!

Welcome to the forum, by the way.


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## Buoso (Aug 10, 2016)

Woodduck said:


> A lot of opera plots are headache-giving. I find myself having to review synopses even of some familiar operas every time I return to them after a lapse of time. Many operas don't have a clear dramatic/emotional trajectory, and break apart in the memory into a collection of "great moments." We're lucky to be able to remember how those moments are tied together. Verdi's musical inspiration largely transcends plot problems in _Don Carlo_, and even to some extent in early works such as _Ernani_ (now there's a doozie of a story!), while he had a much easier job with the stronger, simpler plots of _Rigoletto_, _La Traviata_, and _Otello_. Wagner knew how to pare stage action down to essentials and create a powerful, cohesive dramatic entity, and Puccini had an eye for an effective opera plot. Strauss's operas often seem to be about conversation, and I don't always remember (or, I admit, care) what they're going on about. Baroque and Classical period operas? Give me that synopsis!
> 
> Welcome to the forum, by the way.


I admit to having a great love for Puccini. My favourite opera(s) being the vastly underrated masterpiece that is Il Trittico. Rigoletto remaining my first love as an opera being the first one I saw and understood in full while paying attention. Act 3 of Rigoletto is i think the strongest finale of all of the three operas being discussed here definitely on plot and almost certainly on music. Il Trovatore runs it close but La donna è mobile and the quartet are always going to swing it. I loved La donna è mobile even as a child and yet I find myself holding it with even great affection after seeing it in the context of Rigoletto.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Here you go:


This is beyond believe, how on earth does one putt himself on the internet like this .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Pugg said:


> This is beyond believe, how on earth does one putt himself on the internet like this .


By being a man with an incredible falsetto, an extensive knowledge of opera, and a brilliant sense of fun. You might also enjoy:


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I just found this thread and voted for Il Trovatore which is my favorite Verdi opera.


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

I also found this poll now and Traviata and Rigoletto are tied. It's not like I love _La Traviata,_ and I often forget _Il Trovatore,_ but _Rigoletto_ is one of those few great operas I know that I avoid both for the libretto and the music. It shares that honour for now with _Die Meistersinger_ and _Der Rosenkavalier._

I think great things can be done with Rigoletto's instrumental and vocal score, and indeed the orchestral achievements I find in the Giulini recording are worth the purchase and enjoyment. The same can be said for the Callas/Gobbi/di Stefano cast in Serafin 55. But now that I'm dwelling in opera out of Wagner and Verdi, _Rigoletto_ would surely be one of those operas I ignore in by library. It's the kind of story I hated to see when I was a kid, long before I started to listen to music.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Fritz Kobus said:


> I just found this thread and voted for Il Trovatore which is my favorite Verdi opera.


Time to get in the other two.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Musically, Rigoletto would probably win, but I'm very biased - Il trovatore was my first opera ever. I love that wild mess of a plot, too. And I have a soft spot for Conte di Luna - he sings so beautifully I start rooting for him.


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