# The fate of women in opera



## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

This has probably been discussed before (I'm new to this forum) but I was thinking of the way women in opera are poisoned, stabbed, fall victims of diseases, get suicidal, get temporarily or permanently mad, are abudcted, raped, become stone statues, or if they escape all of these fates, they are at least depicted in abusive relationships, are being held captive or are slaves, or are seduced and dumped or cheated upon, or are ****s, or bitches/witches. In the mildest cases they are only threatened with one of these fates.

Opera is not a very welcoming medium for feminists, LOL - except, like another user just said in another thread, as proof that men are creeps. 

Can you guys help me compose a list of the rare operas in which the female lead comes out unharmed? And in the case they do, please make a note on whether some other non-leading female character gets the short end of things (e.g., just add "leading female only" to the list of unharmed ones).

I'm having a blockade here, I can think of just two on the top of my head. Are they that rare? I was about to include I Puritani then I remembered that the main lead got temporarily mad. Help out, any others besides these two?

Edit: I'll be incorporating the suggestion from the thread contributors.

La Fanciulla del West
Turandot (leading female only)
La Pietra del Paragone (leading female only)
L'Elisir d'Amore
La Fille du Regiment


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## Il Seraglio (Sep 14, 2009)

Well I am probably cheating with this one, but there is the _de facto_ lead female Amneris from Aida (even though the enslaved princess Aida is the real lead so... very debatable).

Wish I could help out more.


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## BachSucks (Aug 30, 2010)

*BACK *SUCKS! He did back then and he does now!


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Leonora is a true hero in Beethoven's Fidelio. Not the greatest opera ever, but certainly forward thinking in its politics if I am recalling it correctly.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Rossini took special delight in having his women outsmart men and get the upper hand in the end

*Rosina in Barber of Seville* with her famous aria Una voce poco fa
Talks about outsmarting her patron and winning the lover of her choosing, and there will trouble if anyone gets in her way!


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

I know this is for the guys to answer but I have to praise Norina for her treatment of Don Pasquale & making sure the drippy Ernesto has plenty of money conferred on him.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Le Nozze di Figaro - Susanna comes out unscathed, Marcellina is married, Barbarina has her boyfriend, and the Countess has the Count grovelling publicly at least for a brief time.

L"Elisir D'Amore - Adina gets her guy even after having treated him badly.

Der Rosenkavalier - The Marschallin loses Octavian but Sophie gets him (we wonder how long that will last).

In one version I've seen of the Ring, Brunnhilde ends up on stage with a beautiful baby in her arms, symbol of new hope.


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## rgz (Mar 6, 2010)

La Fille du Regiment -- Marie gets the rather pleasant choice of staying with her "family" and lover, or becoming a member of royalty. No real negative repercussions, aside from a period of unpleasantness when she is separated from the regiment and Tonio.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> Rossini took special delight in having his women outsmart men and get the upper hand in the end
> 
> *Rosina in Barber of Seville* with her famous aria Una voce poco fa
> Talks about outsmarting her patron and winning the lover of her choosing, and there will trouble if anyone gets in her way!


I know but she is depicted as a secluded ward, in an abusive relationship with her guardian, like in house arrest, that's why I didn't include this one, even though she gets the upper hand at the end.

Rossini's La Pietra del Paragone, on the other hand, is one in which the leading female is virtuous, doesn't suffer any setbacks, and wins at the end, so, this one can be listed according to my conditions.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

*This is one, sure!*



Weston said:


> Leonora is a true hero in Beethoven's Fidelio. Not the greatest opera ever, but certainly forward thinking in its politics if I am recalling it correctly.


No doubt about it, Leonora gets a good outcome - it's just a shame that in order to be able to do it, she had to disguse herself as a man, so, I'm not sure if it counts - maybe she is not abused only because people think that she is a man.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

*Yeah, I wouldn't count this one.*



Il Seraglio said:


> Well I am probably cheating with this one, but there is the _de facto_ lead female Amneris from Aida (even though the enslaved princess Aida is the real lead so... very debatable).
> 
> Wish I could help out more.


Aida is clearly the leading female, and she is not only a slave, but also at the end she is to die suffocated, a horrible death even though she is with her beloved.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Le Nozze di Figaro - Susanna comes out unscathed, Marcellina is married, Barbarina has her boyfriend, and the Countess has the Count grovelling publicly at least for a brief time.
> 
> L"Elisir D'Amore - Adina gets her guy even after having treated him badly.
> 
> ...


I don't know if Le Nozze di Figaro should count, Susanna is under constant threat of being basically raped by the Count and only escapes this fate with the help of Figaro and Cherubino. The Countess is in a way a co-leading lady and she is in an abusive marital relationship, ends up having to swallow her pride and forgive the Count. Marcellina does well but she is in no way a leading lady, same with Barbarina,.

L'Elisir D'Amore - true. I'll give you this one.

Der Rosenkavalier, I don't agree, the Marshallin is clearly the leading lady and she ends up losing her man.

Brunnhilde ending with a baby instead of jumping on the fire? Heresy!!!!

I think that other than my initial two, so far the only really solid ones we found are La Pietra del Paragone and L'Elisir d'Amore.


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

Worst of all is Tannhauser. Everybody thinks that there is happy end because Tannhauser was forgiven. I'm happy for him, but Elisabeth dies for it, dig it, she dies so the guy can get unscathed after he puts his cock where he shouldn't. All this pathos and solemn atmosphere of opera's ending, it's glorification of woman slavery. I demand Tannhauser and all Wagner works to be banned in all civilised countries. What a humilation of all femine kind that these primitive works are still performed, they spread ancient views and social models. You have three days, all you impresarios, obey or prepare for feminists demonstrations and occupations of all important opera houses over the world, not to mention application to the Court of Human Rights.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

*I wouldn't nominate that one*



sospiro said:


> I know this is for the guys to answer but I have to praise Norina for her treatment of Don Pasquale & making sure the drippy Ernesto has plenty of money conferred on him.


She is depicted as a nagging demanding bitch!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

rgz said:


> La Fille du Regiment -- Marie gets the rather pleasant choice of staying with her "family" and lover, or becoming a member of royalty. No real negative repercussions, aside from a period of unpleasantness when she is separated from the regiment and Tonio.


Yes, I give you this one, although in a way Marie adopts an atypical role for a female, by being with the regiment (not as bad as what Leonora/Fidelio had to do, but sort of masculine role as well). But sure, she does get a good outcome with no real negative repercussions like you said.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> I think that other than my initial two, so far the only really solid ones we found are La Pietra del Paragone and L'Elisir d'Amore.


OK OK

How about: Giulio Cesare - Cleopatra defeats the dastardly brother and ends up acclaimed as queen and marrying Giulio.

L'Incoronazione di Poppea: Poppea has the rather dubious distinction of getting her man Nerone. (what happens a year later is beyond the scope of the opera so I still claim it.)

As stated before we can definitely keep in La fille du regiment, really, the worst thing that happens to Marie is being made to wear a dress and learn soppy songs; and Don Pasquale where Norina runs rings around everyone, in fact it's the poor old Don who should be getting our sympathy for elder abuse.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Handel's (English) dramatic oratorios contain many virtuous female leads and indeed, whole oratorios named after such ladies of fine virtues: _Esther_, _Susanna_ and _Theodora_, to name three.

Ladies, there is much to learn!


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> OK OK
> 
> How about: Giulio Cesare - Cleopatra defeats the dastardly brother and ends up acclaimed as queen and marrying Giulio.
> 
> ...


Giulio Cesare, certainly, I should have remembered this one!
L'Incoronazione di Poppea, I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen yet.
Don Pasquale, I'm still in doubt. So, women can win but as long as they are bitches? I'm not sure if it is flattering.

Looks like I can't edit the original post any longer to include more suggestions - is there a limit for the number of edits?


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Handel's (English) dramatic oratorios contain many virtuous female leads and indeed, whole oratorios named after such ladies of fine virtues: _Esther_, _Susanna_ and _Theodora_, to name three.
> 
> Ladies, there is much to learn!


Well, well, oratorios are not operas, so...


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Looks like I can't edit the original post any longer to include more suggestions - is there a limit for the number of edits?


I don't know if the number of edits is limited, but it is time limited.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

sospiro said:


> I don't know if the number of edits is limited, but it is time limited.


Too bad. Part of the fun of this kind of thread is to be adding contributions as they come along.

I'm still not used to this board's format. The one I came from (IMDb Classical Music board) is open to unlimited editing, and displays threads in Nest format which greatly facilitates parallel discussions and dialogues. It also can take you directly to the last contribution in a thread (if this one can, I haven't learned how, yet). This Talk Classical format is a lot more inflexible.

But this board is more active in terms of opera; IMDb doesn't have an Opera board, opera lovers just post inside the Classical Music board, and there aren't that many users there primarily interested in opera, like me.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Almaviva said:


> Well, well, oratorios are not operas, so...


Yes, it is nice to classify things neatly into categories without understanding the historical background, as you seem to lack. The works I listed were oratorios, technically speaking, because they dealt with dramas from the bible. Musically, these were as operatic as any from the period, even encompassing greater ideas beyond expressing the emotions of an individual character within an unfolding drama.

He wrote an opera, _Atalanta_ (1736). Yes, it has a virtuous female lead. I did not originally mention this because the plot was rather thin. While technically an opera, it lacked the emotional substance of the three dramatic oratorios I listed above. Here's an example where the work nicely falls into the category of "opera" for you, while its plot lacks the relative substance of its fellow oratorios.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

HarpsichordConcerto said:


> Yes, it is nice to classify things neatly into categories without understanding the historical background, as you seem to lack.


Whoa, mate. Don't get all offended. What I said was a little bit of humor, thus the "so..." . I just meant to say that if we list a large number of oratorios with virtuous female leads, my whole premise goes down the drain. I was using the distinction as an excuse to keep my idea going, in a tongue-in-cheek manner. Take it easy... we're just having fun here.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> L'Incoronazione di Poppea, I'm ashamed to say I haven't seen yet.


What a treat in store for you. Here is a taster

Pur ti miro - straighforward version, from the DVD I own

Pur ti miro - Jazzy improvised version



Almaviva said:


> Don Pasquale, I'm still in doubt. So, women can win but as long as they are bitches? I'm not sure if it is flattering.


Well if we are going to avoid all the rape, torture, forced marriages etc we might have to be a bit assertive and cunning.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> Too bad. Part of the fun of this kind of thread is to be adding contributions as they come along.


I think the problem is that if people quote a post, or answer one, and the original post is then edited to incorporate the answer, the whole discussion stops making sense. I try not to edit once my post has been answered, unless it's to correct typos(too often I'm afraid)


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> I think the problem is that if people quote a post, or answer one, and the original post is then edited to incorporate the answer, the whole discussion stops making sense. I try not to edit once my post has been answered, unless it's to correct typos(too often I'm afraid)


True. I'm very typo-prone and then I'm frustrated that I can't correct them any longer... like in a recent post I wrote Don Paquale instead of Don Pasquale... I guess I'm just being too picky, everybody commits typos, I should just let it be.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> What a treat in store for you. Here is a taster
> 
> Pur ti miro - straighforward version, from the DVD I own
> 
> ...


True, it's not that I blame her for her strategy, I'm just saying that the *male* librettist, aided by the composer, is implying that only the women who are bitches are allowed to come up on top. It is much rarer to see in opera a virtuous and nice woman triumphing.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

I have remembered more:

La Serva Padrona
Beatrice et Benedict
The Bartered Bride
Bethrotal in a Monastery


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## Meaghan (Jul 31, 2010)

Well, in The Merry Wives of Windsor, the wives make a ninny of Falstaff and get Mistress Ford (/Fluth)'s husband to realize the error of his jealousy and paranoia. And the young daughter manages through her own cleverness to marry the man she loves rather than either of the suitors preferred by her parents.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Can we include operetta? _The Merry Widow_, for example? (the title says it all)...


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## elgar's ghost (Aug 8, 2010)

Samuel Barber's Vanessa - the title role learns that her lover's son (who she falls for) seduces and impregnates her niece (who attempts suicide at one point but recovers) but neither woman goes mad or ends up dying.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

elgars ghost said:


> Samuel Barber's Vanessa - the title role learns that her lover's son (who she falls for) seduces and impregnates her niece (who attempts suicide at one point but recovers) but neither woman goes mad or ends up dying.


I don't know, that doesn't seem too nice on them... I'm not familiar with this opera.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

Andre said:


> Can we include operetta? _The Merry Widow_, for example? (the title says it all)...


Well, operettas by definition are lighter so they won't include tragedies like people being stabbed, poisoned, etc.


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## emiellucifuge (May 26, 2009)

You will love Die Soldaten,

Its all about how an innocent young lady falls in love with army-officers and nobility only to be corrupted by the evil of a culture-less civilisation and eventually she becomes a *****, her own father doesnt recognise her as she begs on the street.


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

The ultimate feminist opera is L'Italiana in Algeri.
After all, here is how it ends:

La bella Italiana
Venuta in Algeri
Insegna agli amanti
Gelosi ed alteri,
Che a tutti, se vuole,
La Donna la fa.

Super nice!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Almaviva said:


> The ultimate feminist opera is L'Italiana in Algeri.
> After all, here is how it ends:
> 
> La bella Italiana
> ...


I like it:tiphat:.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

*Lulu (Alban Berg)*

was a *****....

But I think you wanted to discuss about women composers....They didn't compose opera a lot...Did they?

Martin Pitchon, macho


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## Almaviva (Aug 13, 2010)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> was a *****....
> 
> But I think you wanted to discuss about women composers....They didn't compose opera a lot...Did they?
> 
> Martin Pitchon, macho


I confess that the only opera I know by a woman composer is _L'Amour de Loin_, and it is an astounding masterpiece.


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