# Why is music education so esoteric?



## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

I think that music education is not too different from professional sports, unless you start very early, your chances are gone.

To be able to enroll in music academy (at least the situation is such where I live), you need to have completed music high school, and it requires having completed elementary music school, which usually starts around the age of 7-8.

So as an adult, even young adult, you can't meaningfully start serious music education.

On the other hand, if you have finished a regular high school, you can start studying fields as advanced as pure mathematics, theoretical physics, astronomy, cosmology, philosophy, medicine, neuroscience... but music... NO!

If your parents weren't smart enough to put you in music education early, you can practically never decide to do it on your own.

I do understand that for professional concert performance early start is essential, as it requires that much time to develop playing skills to such a high level.

But what about other areas, like composition, music theory, maybe even singing? You don't need to be a virtuoso to compose. Why are requirements to get into music education so high?

I am speaking from personal experience. I am 30 and I never received any music education, apart from that which was a part of regular school curriculum.

That's quite a regret for me. I am not extremely talented, I don't come from a musical family, but I think I do have at least some talent and I can appreciate music quite well. Yet, it would be very hard for me to learn about it more in depth right now.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

I’d say there’s destiny involved too in having the opportunity at a young age for a musical education and playing an instrument. The child might have talent but not the chance to develop it, for one reason or another, such as indifferent parents or school. It’s a shame. Nevertheless, there are examples of adults taking up painting (Grandma Moses) or music later in life well enough to enjoy it or have highly developed their musical instincts by listening and collecting. I see a great number of them on the forum. But I also decry the apparent devaluation of music in the schools, less opportunities, without the funds to hire good teachers and make instruments available for those who cant afford them. Musical training can be such a civilizing force because the highest form of self-expression usually requires a certain basic honesty. I mean that sincerely. 

I started in elementary school and ended up being lucky enough to become a professional musician because I had an early start and dedicated teachers who believed in what they were doing. I also believe it was my destiny to have the opportunity to become a professional musician. Without that force of life that supports the opportunity, it’s harder but can still be done to find out just how good one can actually be in learning an instrument or becoming a highly developed listener – and that would be an expression of the free will side of life regardless of one’s lack of opportunity at a young age. Joseph Campbell might say to ”follow your bliss.”


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I had similar case as Larkenfield. My parents appreciated music education, and I picked the flute for myself to learn when I was 9, but I actually started lessons because of my public elementary school band teacher. My parents didn't know anything about how to get a child on the right music track, so it was public school that helped me succeed in the end. I was recommended a certain flute teacher, and it just went from there. After getting the private teacher I realized how much I actually liked the flute, not so much before it. Self-motivation after 6th grade really got me going farther than just a hobby.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

ZJovicic, I just want to make sure I understand the issue. In the US, music students must be able to play an instrument at a certain level of proficiency before they can be accepted to a college music school program, but they don't have to have any music education (i.e. classes in music). Everyone I know took private instrument lessons before being accepted in a college music school program, but the only music activities in grade school or high school were occasionally performing in school ensembles.

Are you talking about music lessons, which could be outside school, or music classes in school?


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

> If your parents weren't smart enough to put you in music education early, you can practically never decide to do it on your own.


I had a piano teacher at a very young age, sometimes we catch up an play Mozart for 4 hands and reminiscing.
I am still grateful towards my parents ans I love helping my mother's choir out by accompany them.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I guess it depends on where you live. In my part of the world, the American southwest, the university music programs restrict students from entering with placement tests which include playing, sight singing, aural dictation, basic harmony, and such. But people, of any age, who want to start from the beginning can enroll in any of our many, and generally excellent, community colleges which will teach you the absolute basics and get you prepared to enter a conservatory or university. Of course, the real stumbling block in play an instrument which is something that you must begin early or you'll never be a pro and conservatories just can't waste time on you - sorry if that's harsh, but it's true. As a musician you will always be judged on how well you play your instrument. I took piano and learned clarinet as a kid, but music wasn't my career choice so taking private lessons and studying rigorously was not important. After college I took up percussion and have actually done pretty well but I could never catch up to the kids who started when they were 10 years younger. When I hit 50 I took up bassoon on a dare and have done quite well, playing professionally and travelling on orchestra/opera tours in China, Mexico, and Europe. So it can be done! Just takes hard work, dedication, and a serious attitude. If you're older (>25) don't despair - go for it! Besides, learning something hard keeps your brain agile and young.


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## Taggart (Feb 14, 2013)

As people keep saying, it depends on your country. Here in the UK, we have the Open University which specialises in distance learning and also in "mature" students. When I started computing, I took a degree with them starting at 34. Some students were *much* older. I know the OU covers other countries although the teaching language is usually English. Their music degree website is here - http://www.openuniversity.edu/courses/qualifications/r25?# and you can see if it available where you live.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

musical or sports (ballet etc) education of children at such young age is abuse/torture of the children. The children function as channels for the unfulfilled ambitions of their parents. Mozart was a victim of the ambitions of his father. His father used the young Mozart as a circus animal to travel Europe to show people how such a young boy can play music and he robbed him of his childhood.


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## BabyGiraffe (Feb 24, 2017)

ZJovicic said:


> That's quite a regret for me. I am not extremely talented, I don't come from a musical family, but I think I do have at least some talent and I can appreciate music quite well. Yet, it would be very hard for me to learn about it more in depth right now.


Man, there are more than enough free (like the thousand of youtube videos) and paid courses and books, and teachers (in any big town) out there for any musical topic. Just buy an instrument or learn to sing, or compose. You don't have to be a virtuoso to play 99 % of the music out there.

The biggest problem for adults is that they don't have time for themselves when they have small children or use all their free time for friends or family, or writing on facebook/ forums...


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

It is not really in disagreement but Sviatoslav Richter - a formidable pianist to say the least - got little music education and was supposedly mostly self-taught. An outlier.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

I may have misunderstood the question asked by the OP but reading between the lines I don't think that he wants to obtain a degree in music, or get involved in any other type of long course leading to a formal qualification, but mainly wants to learn more about the technical side of music appreciation beyond what one can glean solely from using one's ears to listen to it. If so I would guess that being able to play an instrument like a piano up to a modest level might suffice. That obviously means acquiring a piano and finding a teacher. This ought to be capable of provide a decent basis upon which further self-learning can be obtained as may be required.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

I don't play an instrument and sight read abominably -- but have listened to CM on my own since I was a child, and have always read voluminously (liner notes, good criticism, biographies, musicological analysis) and though there's a percentage of arcana that is and will forever remain beyond my immediate understanding, I am tremendously musicslly knowledgeable for a non-musician. Don't sell yourself short. At very least listen and read.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

mmsbls said:


> ZJovicic, I just want to make sure I understand the issue. In the US, music students must be able to play an instrument at a certain level of proficiency before they can be accepted to a college music school program, but they don't have to have any music education (i.e. classes in music). Everyone I know took private instrument lessons before being accepted in a college music school program, but the only music activities in grade school or high school were occasionally performing in school ensembles.
> 
> Are you talking about music lessons, which could be outside school, or music classes in school?


Yeah, here in Bosnia the situation is similar, you gotta pass their tests to be able to enroll in music program in University. But the tests are such that you have very low chances of passing them unless you have already been in formal musical education.
Here's it's called muzička škola (music school) and you have niža muzička škola (literally "lower music school") which spans the same year as primary school, and srednja muzička škola ("middle music school") which covers the high school years.

Generally I am not interested in becoming a professional musician, but I would like to learn to play some instrument decently and to understand music theory to a deeper level.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

I don't understand the idea that musicians have to begin young.......they're not gymnasts. It takes time but assuming you're not 10 years away from dying, if you commit yourself you could be a formidable musician.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

ZJovicic said:


> Generally I am not interested in becoming a professional musician, but I would like to learn to play some instrument decently and to understand music theory to a deeper level.


That's the way I interpreted your post. If you are starting out from scratch I'd suggest a piano is best. Don't buy an electronic keyboard because most teachers don't want to know about these things. A cheap second upright would be ideal, as new ones are expensive. If you buy it from a dealer get them to certify that nothing is broken and have them tune it. Run your fingers down the keyboard both ways to make sure no keys look wonky or sticks or sounds out of tune. Give each key a good stab to make sure it sounds OK and lifts properly. Also try the pedals. An ex-demonstrator might be the best bet as it's less likely to have been abused. Next a teacher. I can't hellp you there I'm afraid.

You'll be amazed how much music theory you can learn by yourself once the basics have sunk in from playing some quite simple keyboard music. My mother taught me piano from age 9. I wasn't that good and packed up at age 16 by which time I had taken some piano exams. I also learned about music theory in general at school. It's obviously useful to have some theory knowledge because otherwise it's impossible to follow scores. It's also difficult to read books about the great composers, as things can become quite complicated as some quickly get into technicalities. That's not to say that classical music can't be enjoyed just as much with no playing ability and zero technical knowledge, provided of course one is familiar with the main genres and time periods.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I don't understand the idea that musicians have to begin young.......they're not gymnasts. It takes time but assuming you're not 10 years away from dying, if you commit yourself you could be a formidable musician.


It depends on what the desired outcome is. It's like learning a second, or third, language. If you don't start when you're young you will almost always retain an accent and not become fully fluent. The young mind is like a sponge and can learn and adapt far easier than an older one. It also has to do with muscle memory. Every world-class concert violinist or pianist started really young - like age 3 or 4. If you start studying violin at age 18 you might become good, maybe even good enough to play in an orchestra, but you will never be a concert soloist, at least not one most people would want to hear. There are some people who started late and made it as a composer: Khachaturian didn't study music until nearly 20 or so. He even became a respectable conductor. But learning to play an instrument is actually a lot like being an athlete - you need to start young!


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> It depends on what the desired outcome is. It's like learning a second, or third, language. If you don't start when you're young you will almost always retain an accent and not become fully fluent. The young mind is like a sponge and can learn and adapt far easier than an older one. It also has to do with muscle memory. Every world-class concert violinist or pianist started really young - like age 3 or 4. If you start studying violin at age 18 you might become good, maybe even good enough to play in an orchestra, but you will never be a concert soloist, at least not one most people would want to hear. There are some people who started late and made it as a composer: Khachaturian didn't study music until nearly 20 or so. He even became a respectable conductor. But learning to play an instrument is actually a lot like being an athlete - you need to start young!


It doesn't happen that someone who starts at 18 becomes a concert artist because people take on responsibilities after a certain age that prevents them from training like younger person. I've played instruments as well as sports for a long time and in my experience muscle memory isn't as slow as you're making it out to be.


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

mbhaub said:


> It depends on what the desired outcome is. It's like learning a second, or third, language. If you don't start when you're young you will almost always retain an accent and not become fully fluent. The young mind is like a sponge and can learn and adapt far easier than an older one. It also has to do with muscle memory. Every world-class concert violinist or pianist started really young - like age 3 or 4. If you start studying violin at age 18 you might become good, maybe even good enough to play in an orchestra, but you will never be a concert soloist, at least not one most people would want to hear. There are some people who started late and made it as a composer: Khachaturian didn't study music until nearly 20 or so. He even became a respectable conductor. But learning to play an instrument is actually a lot like being an athlete - you need to start young!


Regarding languages, my first contact with English was at the age of 9 and I only started studying it more seriously around the age of 14. My first contact with Italian was at the age of 21.

Now I am 30, and I speak both languages fluently. Of course I have some accent, but it doesn't prevent me from being a very functional user of these languages.


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## Nate Miller (Oct 24, 2016)

do you have any friends that are musicians? if not, do you ever get a chance to meet musicians and make friends with them?

I ask because I think you would do best with a private teacher, but simply a friend who plays that can answer questions and point you in the right direction is an often underappreciated resource


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## ZJovicic (Feb 26, 2017)

A friend of mine is a drummer, another one plays guitar (rock).


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## chunleitired (6 mo ago)

m


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

ZJovicic said:


> *I think that music education is not too different from professional sports, unless you start very early, your chances are gone.*
> 
> To be able to enroll in music academy (at least the situation is such where I live), you need to have completed music high school, and it requires having completed elementary music school, which usually starts around the age of 7-8.
> 
> ...


I agree with the statement in bold.

To reach the top level in sports and as a musician, it takes a combination of intellect, skill, and muscle memory way beyond what can be learned later in life. At the levels of world class musicians and athletes, I think it takes thinking and acting several steps in advance, or maybe, not thinking at all.

I started surfing at the age of 14. I made a lot of progress very quickly, so I got a coach. I competed, and did quite well in many contests. It wasn't until a few years later, when I tried to get some sponsorship, I had problems. I would hear the sponsors say things like, "if only you started surfing 6 years younger". When I talked to my coach, he said they are unwilling to take a chance on someone with a late start, since the chances of reaching the highest levels are very slim. This despite, being one of the best in the water on any given day, it is not the same as the elite. There will always be a gulf, that can not be crossed. You read the bio's of the best in the world, and US surfer, Griffin Colapinto, gets special mention, because he started surfing at the ripe old age of 8.

As opposed to the above, I was in my late 30's when I first began studying computer networking (I was working in retail management), mostly on my own. With almost no formal training, or a degree, I am now at a pretty high level working as a network engineer for the bio-tech company, Amgen.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

Simon Moon said:


> ... When I talked to my coach, he said they are unwilling to take a chance on someone with a late start, since the chances of reaching the highest levels are very slim. This despite, being one of the best in the water on any given day, it is not the same as the elite. ...


I think you are making some valuable comments about the difference between an elite level and, say, a high level of accomplishment. One difference is being able to give excellent results consistently and under trying circumstances. Gary Graffman, teacher of Yuja Wang, had her learn many piano concertos, any of which she could play on very short notice. That way she could step in immediately and play the scheduled work when a pianist cancelled a concerto performance on short notice. Now, many of these concertos are highly challenging and for Yuja Wang to have one of them ready to go in as little as a day or two demonstrated her elite level -- that is how she broke into the concert circuit. Neither Wang nor Lang Lang -- another Graffman student -- went the route of piano competitions. I worked on Prokofiev's Third Piano Concerto for months and tied for third in a national piano competition, but being able to do that once a "given day" is as you say far away from being at an elite level.


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## progmatist (Apr 3, 2021)

For me as a child in the 1970s, the biggest barrier was my parents' ability to pay for a private music teacher. My dad had to work 2 jobs to barely get by. Living in a poor neighborhood, there was little if any chance of being noticed by a philanthropist to fund my education. I had no choice but to teach myself.


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

chunleitired said:


> Here involved a lot of destinies indeed. Suppose your parents have the understanding and desire to get you a music education. In that case, you have much more chances to become a professional musician.


Great advice , thanks for sharing and warm welcome to Talk Classical


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## chunleitired (6 mo ago)

Here involved a lot of destinies indeed. Suppose your parents have the understanding and desire to get you a music education. In that case, you have much more chances to become a professional musician. Also, they should have the opportunity to hire a private teacher and send you to a specialized school. Not all kids have that; many just learn at an early age that their parents cannot afford that and don’t even ask for it. It is very rare for kids to start this journey when they are older and succeed. I tried to learn some music at asa miami college, but it was too late for me already. So, it’s not only about talent but about opportunities too.


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## bagpipers (Jun 29, 2013)

If you find music education arcane or esoteric then your likely in a class too advanced for you at this point in your education.
Try a more basic class and then work back up.


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## Metromania (4 mo ago)

It unfortunates me too. I'm a 24 y.o. now and I understand that I'll never get a place in orchestr (even if I'm ready to spend all my time for music). Why we can get any profession, any knowledge and success in any field, but not in music? Honestly, I often buyed my writing works for school here https://ca.edubirdie.com/persuasive-essay-writing-service to have a free time for trainings with my instrument. But I'm still an amatour because I didn't start in in 7 years.


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## Enthalpy (Apr 15, 2020)

It's just that way, I suppose. I know of no single professional violinist, nor even a decent amateur, who started music older than 9 (Enrico Palascino, among the very best professionals, seen by peers as the proof that age <7 isn't needed), none who started the violin older than 10 after playing an other instrument.

The violin takes mostly right-handed kids and makes them half left-handed. Many right-handed violinists switch to the left fingers for delicate tasks. Brains imagery sees clearly the different organisation of violinists, it's said to be much more obvious than for other instruments. So the violin may just need the brain plasticity of children.

It could be different for other instruments. Claus Thunemann switched from the piano to the bassoon at 18, Alexandre Silverio at 15 and he is among the most agile bassoonists. Nearly all professionals of big instruments (bassoon, trombone, tuba...) started around 12. I've started recently the bassoon at >50 like MBHaub and progress quickly, but it's my 6th instrument, and I begun with 6 the violin, for which I was strongly gifted.

There is also a difference of general level of the instrument. The competition on the piano is unmanageable, on the violin it's horrible, on the flute, the clarinet, the trumpet it's really bad. Consequently, the level is high. The bassoon is quite far from that level. The oboe, I don't know.

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Comparisons with computer science and others aren't valid.

First, it's not at all the same difficulty. MScEE students get ridiculous 200h course on a topic (let's say computer networking) to become a specialist, and about everyone is expected to succeed. A future violinist invests >10 000 h learning to play, and only very few among the most talented become professionals.

There is the notion of agility too. You can perfectly learn algebra or electrical engineering just by listening to a professor, and this capability is kept or even improved at 40 or 50. But a music instrument demands training, because agility is a different capability, where understanding doesn't suffice.

==========

Foreign languages resemble a bit more the difficulty of a music instrument but they don't equal it.

Professional level sports are a valid comparison. A few agile professions too, I think at violin making.


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