# Most difficult pianistic technique



## Somnifer

This list isn't exhaustive but they're all the ones I can think of from the top of my head.

Hardest for me is anything involving the weak fingers. Mine are horrible.


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## jurianbai

i play amateur non classical piano, from my point of view, different rhytm between left and right is most difficult to do. also for fingering, anything involved a ring finger needed to lift high so that it can hit a note with certain volume, is difficult. 

how high can you lift your ring finger?


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## danae

Almost everything in that list terrifies the hell out of me, because technically, I'm really behind. But with a lot of studying I have reached a point where I can play Jeu D' Eaux or Beethoven's op.109 and Waldstein, for instance, quite well. 

Oh, and how is the third one of the weakest fingers? In both hands, the strong ones are 1-2-3, at least in my own hands.


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## Somnifer

jurianbai said:


> i play amateur non classical piano, from my point of view, different rhytm between left and right is most difficult to do. also for fingering, anything involved a ring finger needed to lift high so that it can hit a note with certain volume, is difficult.
> 
> how high can you lift your ring finger?


I can't lift my ring very high at all and I find that it's very obstructive when it comes to rapid passages involving 3-4-5.

Also, in response to the question above, the third is counted as one of the weaker fingers because it shares a ligament (or something) with the fourth finger so its movement isn't entirely independent - hold your hand in front of you and press your third finger down hard, and you'll notice it feels "obstructed" through connection to the fourth.


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## Aramis

I voted for _Polyphonic writing (e.g. Bach) and/or countermelodies_. When left hand plays something more than rhythmic stuff, something melodically equal to the right hand I can't focus on both of them and play the whole thing as good as I would like to. I can have clear idea how to play both of them but when it comes to playing the whole thing together I can't bring the idea to life.


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## Somnifer

GAH!

How could I forget to include parallel thirds!?

It's one of the most challenging techniques and I completely forgot it. Sorry.


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## bdelykleon

Actually it is worse when several of these difficulties are combined, like trills and three part writing, I don't even want to remember when I was starting to play Bach's Sinfonia in C minor.

Curiously I don't find repeated notes of any difficulty, and have studied several Scarlatti's and Seixas' sonatas. But well, I'm no professional, perhaps I didn't face the most difficult techniques...


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## BuddhaBandit

I voted for "difficult rhythms". As an improviser, of course, my experience playing the classical repertoire is limited; however, I've been able to (somewhat) use all the above techniques in my improvs except polyrhythms and true syncopation.


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## Edward Elgar

Bach fugues are the hardest things I've come across so far. I'd sooner tackle a classical concerto than a fugue any day. I like to get my fingering sorted before learning a piece and when there are many melodies, ensuring fingering is correct becomes very difficult. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has difficulty!


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## Mirror Image

Polyphonic is writing is most definitely the hardest. Only a very skilled and experienced pianist can pull this off with no problem and even they too have trouble I'm sure. It's very difficult to do, because you really have to think like two very different people. One hand is doing something completely different than the other.


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## bdelykleon

Four-part polyphony may be quite hard, but besides that (and as in most four-part fugues seldom all voices play together), it is really an aquired skill, once you get it, it brings you no problem.


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## bdelykleon

And no one yet mentioned octaves, when in fast tempo this is very hard...


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> Polyphonic is writing is most definitely the hardest. Only a very skilled and experienced pianist can pull this off with no problem and even they too have trouble I'm sure. It's very difficult to do, because you really have to think like two very different people. One hand is doing something completely different than the other.


First of all, in piano playing, polyphonic writing involves not only one hand "doing something different than the other", but also different voices (parts) in the same hand, which is the hardest. A 5-part fugue (like the C# minor from WTC/I) requires different dynamics between the two hands of course, but most importantly, between the fingers of the same hand, if one wants to make all the themes, answers and counter-themes distinguishable.

Second of all, polyphonic writing can't be the hardest. I don't have great technique but polyphony is my thing and the Bach fugues are my strong point. But I can't play a Liszt or a Rachmaninov concerto, or several of the Chopin etudes, or Gaspard de la nuit.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> First of all, in piano playing, polyphonic writing involves not only one hand "doing something different than the other", but also different voices (parts) in the same hand, which is the hardest. A 5-part fugue (like the C# minor from WTC/I) requires different dynamics between the two hands of course, but most importantly, between the fingers of the same hand, if one wants to make all the themes, answers and counter-themes distinguishable.
> 
> Second of all, polyphonic writing can't be the hardest. I don't have great technique but polyphony is my thing and the Bach fugues are my strong point. But I can't play a Liszt or a Rachmaninov concerto, or several of the Chopin etudes, or Gaspard de la nuit.


I'm not an experienced pianist myself, so I don't know the true difficulties of the piano as I never got that far with it.

That said, I think if you practice hard enough you could play a Liszt or Rachmaninov concerto. Can you play any concertos at all?


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> I'm not an experienced pianist myself, so I don't know the true difficulties of the piano as I never got that far with it.
> 
> That said, I think if you practice hard enough you could play a Liszt or Rachmaninov concerto. Can you play any concertos at all?


I played Mozart's K.466 (d minor) for my first piano degree and Ravel's (not the one for the left hand of course!!!) for my piano diploma. I've also played some other Mozart concertos, Beethoven 3rd, Shostakovitch 1st, the Grieg, Prokofiev 3rd, and partially Bartok 1st, Tchaikowski B flat minor, Schumann. That's it.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> I played Mozart's K.466 (d minor) for my first piano degree and Ravel's (not the one for the left hand of course!!!) for my piano diploma. I've also played some other Mozart concertos, Beethoven 3rd, Shostakovitch 1st, the Grieg, Prokofiev 3rd, and partially Bartok 1st, Tchaikowski B flat minor, Schumann. That's it.


You have played some great ones! I bet the Grieg and Schumann were difficult.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> You have played some great ones! I bet the Grieg and Schumann were difficult.


It's funny you mentioned these two, because there's a connection between them and you can hear it too: Grieg was very much influenced by Schumann's concerto when he was composing his own. 
As for difficulty, I find the Schumann mucbh harder than the Grieg, not only musically but technically also. Apart form that, the Grieg concerto is much more accessible even by a young performer, because it's easier to understand musically.


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## Rasa

Polyphonic writing, without a doubt. Obviously, anyone can learn to play the fugues, but it won't be played well: vertical rather then horizontal. Playing two or three voices in one hand, or voices running from the 1-2 in one hand to the other, and most importantly giving each voice a different sonority requires you to have acquired most of the techniques mention in the list.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> It's funny you mentioned these two, because there's a connection between them and you can hear it too: Grieg was very much influenced by Schumann's concerto when he was composing his own.
> As for difficulty, I find the Schumann mucbh harder than the Grieg, not only musically but technically also. Apart form that, the Grieg concerto is much more accessible even by a young performer, because it's easier to understand musically.


How difficult was the Prokofiev and Tchaikovsky?


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## Yoshi

I know it might sound stupid, but from that list the most difficult for me is really the octaves. Why? My hands are small.


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> How difficult was the Prokofiev and Tchaikovsky?


The Prokofiev is extremely difficult, for me at least. That's why I've never played it in public. I 've only played it in the privacy of my home or my teacher's home! 
The Tchaikowksi is also super hard, and I've only played parts of it, as I said before. 
Inspite of all this, I have the feeling that if I really devoted myself to these works (which would entail studying more than 6 hours a day) I would be able to play them, at some point.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> The Prokofiev is extremely difficult, for me at least. That's why I've never played it in public. I 've only played it in the privacy of my home or my teacher's home!
> The Tchaikowksi is also super hard, and I've only played parts of it, as I said before.
> Inspite of all this, I have the feeling that if I really devoted myself to these works (which would entail studying more than 6 hours a day) I would be able to play them, at some point.


Yes, I think you could do it, that is, if you devote time and practice to playing them. Who are some of your favorite classical pianists?


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## danae

Mirror Image said:


> Who are some of your favorite classical pianists?


The past few years I prefer: Gould (only in Bach), Richter, Argerich, Pollini, Gilels, Kissin, Anda, Aimard, Pletnev.


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## Mirror Image

danae said:


> The past few years I prefer: Gould (only in Bach), Richter, Argerich, Pollini, Gilels, Kissin, Anda, Aimard, Pletnev.


All excellent pianists. Lately mine are Argerich, Pascal Roge, Zimerman, Richter, Perahia, Ashkenazy, Collard, Serkin, Clilburn, Entremont, Freire, etc.


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## Kuntster

pianistically not melodically, I would vote for double trills. They're a bitch to do, but when you get it right It's FANTASTIC!


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## bdelykleon

Kuntster said:


> pianistically not melodically, I would vote for double trills. They're a bitch to do, but when you get it right It's FANTASTIC!


Yes, for things like that I voted for ornaments...


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## Somnifer

Trills in thirds are absolutely evil. It's almost as though they're only there for the sake of torture.

(trills in 4-5 or 3-4 are almost as bad)


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## Laura Antonia K.

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and just getting used to using it !

I voted for repreated notes - as I have the terrible habit of tensing up right through my arms

I am currently playing Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo A la Turk and this technical difficulty is a curse during some of the rapidly repeated chords in the RH! If anyone has any suggestions to break this habit I would be very grateful!

Peace


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## Kuntster

Laura Antonia K. said:


> Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and just getting used to using it !
> 
> I voted for repreated notes - as I have the terrible habit of tensing up right through my arms
> 
> I am currently playing Dave Brubeck's Blue Rondo A la Turk and this technical difficulty is a curse during some of the rapidly repeated chords in the RH! If anyone has any suggestions to break this habit I would be very grateful!
> 
> Peace


Chopin etudes op.10 no. 4 and op.25 no.12. That'll get your fingers nimble as can be.


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## Rasa

I think a lot of people don't vote polyphony because it's often accepted that preludes and fuges are played brand, and not have every voice in a different texture. Ofcourse, it takes a real master to do so and a live performance of this would be rare.


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## TresPicos

If it hadn't been for all those techniques in the poll, and all the practicing, I think I could have become a decent piano player.


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## SenorTearduct

double and triple trills... or a trill with fast moving notes under it


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## YsayeOp.27#6

What about very fast three-octaved trills?


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## SenorTearduct

well that just hurts thinking about it... how would such a thing be accomplished without a duet on piano?


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## YsayeOp.27#6

Thinking again, it's not that hard. You play the lower note with the 5th finger of the left hand and fingers 1st and 4th on the right hand, and the upper note with left hand's 1st and 4th, and 5th on the right hand. All very quick. A bit like in Brahms' d minor concerto, but playing three parallel trills, instead of just two.


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## SenorTearduct

Ya i dont know of any works with a triple trill


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## Ravellian

I've been playing the piano seriously for about 10 years, and probably the toughest out of all of those for me are tremolos (like the scary finale of Hanon, and the tremolos at the beginning of the Waldstein) and the rapid huge jumps in succession, like those present in so many Liszt works. Octaves are probably third difficult.. most of the other technique, like playing rapid scales, come with ease in time.


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## Rasa

Wrong. All wrong (except the seven other who voted polyphony)


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## SenorTearduct

How can this be wrong?? these are opinions. Not facts, therefore they cannot be disproven


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## Rasa

Opinions aren't necessarily right. Scientist held the opinion that the earth was flat for quite a while.


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## MJTTOMB

Rasa said:


> Opinions aren't necessarily right. Scientist held the opinion that the earth was flat for quite a while.


yes, and they were disproven by fact. you can't judge one opinion more valid than another opinion, but you can judge a fact to be superior to an opinion.


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## SenorTearduct

And there are no definite facts to disprove the previously commented opinions because the very basis of the conversation is "what do you consider to be the most difficult techniques for piano" The level of difficulty of one particular technique will vary per person varied upon their circumstances; hand size, time they've been playing, style of play ect... So as in most things Rasa there is no absolute answer or definition, for we base our very society on the differences, not absolutes.


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## Zeniyama

The most difficult thing to do well, I believe, is contrapunctal playing, though it's very rewarding; the more you perfect a contrapunctal piece of music the easier it is to play in general (at least, that's how it works out for me)


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## SenorTearduct

Thats funny, i also find, In composing, by writing conterpoint pieces, it becomes easier to compose... As if it enhances a creative flow and understanding


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## Zeniyama

Indeed it does. I often experiment with counterpoint, and I think it's had a great impact on my compositional style.


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## SenorTearduct

And to say the truth, I find it easier to compose pieces like fugues and canons, rather than form works like sonatas or cantatas or serenades...


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## Rasa

Would you mind sharing some of your fugues?


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## SenorTearduct

I would not at all... 

On the composers today forum I have a thread under "Finite Terra" It may be on the second page, or you could click on "find all posts under my name on here and scroll down to "Finite Terra"

When you get to the forum i have a few works posted... The first one I posted was a Church toccata and fugue in C minor.. there is an explanation for it

The next set of posts is a Missa Brevis I wrote before the Fugue

and the last attachment is a Fugue for piano-- its unique due to some of its swing like features

Or just go to this link and cut out the work... http://www.talkclassical.com/6163-finite-terra-need-reviews.html


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## Zeniyama

I listened to the works on your page, and they're pretty good. A lot different than mine.

My varied tastes in music coupled with my autodidactic knowledge of music composition give my works a very idiosyncratic style. I'd post some to give an example, but the computer with all my music compositions on it has a virus, and I can't really use it that much at all at the moment.


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## Mirror Image

Zeniyama said:


> I listened to the works on your page, and they're pretty good. A lot different than mine.
> 
> My varied tastes in music coupled with my autodidactic knowledge of music composition give my works a very idiosyncratic style. I'd post some to give an example, but the computer with all my music compositions on it has a virus, and I can't really use it that much at all at the moment.


Why didn't you back the files up on disc? All hard drives are going to go bad at some point.


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## SenorTearduct

I had a laptop that did that.. I suggest trying to go in on safe mode and pull the files onto a usb disk, then plug the usb into your other computer.. I highly the virus would embed itself in such an obscure as a music notation file, so you should be safe.

I'd love to here your music btw.. I'm not sure what "autodidactic" means.. But It sounds intresting enough.. If you do post your music, or allready have even one piece online, I'd enjoy hearing it.

And thanks for taking the time


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## Zeniyama

Yeah, I probably should have done something... I don't know why I didn't.

Once I get all the problems fixed (this isn't the worst I've seen computers get screwed up), I'll be sure to post something. As for now, the only files I have are a couple of short piano pieces in MIDI, which I'll post right after posting this.

EDIT: Okay, I posted the two pieces that I could. I'm a bit dissatisfied, because they're earlier works, before I really started experimenting with counterpoint, but I'd say they're good examples nonetheless.


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## bplary

Definitely a vote for Polyphonic Writing, fugues are the death of me >.<.


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## Romantic Geek

Somnifer said:


> I can't lift my ring very high at all and I find that it's very obstructive when it comes to rapid passages involving 3-4-5.
> 
> Also, in response to the question above, the third is counted as one of the weaker fingers because it shares a ligament (or something) with the fourth finger so its movement isn't entirely independent - hold your hand in front of you and press your third finger down hard, and you'll notice it feels "obstructed" through connection to the fourth.


I've never understood the hatred for the ring finger. My piano professor tried to get me to not use it as much, but I have very good control of my ring finger.

For me, trills, mordents, and ornaments have never been my strong suit, especially trills requiring the use of anything other than 1-2 or 1-3. I'm not really one with quick fingers, so ornaments are the bane of my existence.

It's why I don't like to play baroque or classical music so much.


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## TWhite

For me its ascending scale passages. And that's mainly due to the shape of my hands--though I have fairly large hands (10ths and 11ths don't bother me very much) I have very short thumbs and they're placed low on my palm. Now before all of you start laughing hysterically, let me assure you that I can whiz off a DESCENDING scale passage with absolutely no problem. However placing the thumb under going UP, means that I have to change the position of my hand in mid-passage and practice like crazy to make it sound even. My piano coach in college could never understand it until I held both hands up, fingers splayed, and he looked at them for a moment then said, "Dang, no WONDER!" 

Needless to say, I don't play a lot of Mozart, LOL! 

And I'll certainly chime in about polyphonic writing. Anything over two voices and I just get lost. Fugues and myself are simply two ships that pass in the night. 

Tom


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## Cyrille

Hmm, I could not answer the poll, because I suffer difficulties not only on one technique, but some. 

What I found most annoying is octave, and wide-ranged chords, most likely to be found on romantic pieces. The longest range I could get is 8ve (I have small hands <.<), 9th is a big effort for me. They say finger range could be exercised, though.

and then large jumps, especially if it revolved with octave. My wrists & my arms hurt after doing it. Maybe there's something wrong about the way I play. 

I never had problems with weak fingers before, but now I just did. I feel like I don't know which finger I'm playing.


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## Lukecash12

It varies for different pianists, and amongst different passages. However, large jumps have been the most difficult for me.


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## chrisg

I find polyphonic writing actually pretty easy. I think it is all down to my piano teacher always giving me Bach to learn such as the Well Tempered Clavier. Personally, I find long scale passages sometimes a pain to play - the wrist can ache afterwards and to get them played correctly in many cases no other note in the passage has to be played accented more than others. Take Schuberts 4th Impromptu Op 142 (D.935) as an example.


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## Lukecash12

jurianbai said:


> how high can you lift your ring finger?


Three inches.


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## Mozartgirl92

Which one of the options is the same as moving-your-fingers-alot? The finger moving sure is hard!


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## Air

I now understand why my teacher brought me up on Bach fugues. I am eternally grateful to her for doing this.

For me, it's rapid thirds (especially chromatic ones in the weak fingers).


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## Priscila

*Your suggestion*

Hi Air

I would be glad to know where I can find full/complete biography of Alexander Brailowsky private life, studies, family, libraries etc.

In tha past year, net informs only where he played, songs, and very little about himself.
Even his book about Pianists I could not find.

Tks a lot, I appreciate your help, Priscila


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