# Mime ruins much of the first 2 acts of Siegfried



## WAWilson (Nov 8, 2011)

My title pretty much says it - the thing that keeps me from listening to the first two acts of Siegfried more often is that terrible character, the worst in the entire cycle IMO, MIME! It is a combination of that awful jumping chromatic and ugly music Wagner wrote for him and the fact that most of the singers who play him go to extra lengths to make him annoying. Why did Wagner have to go so overboard in making Mime so unlikable. He doesn't sing a single beautiful thing in his entire time on stage. The closest I can think of is when he says "Siegfried my son!" when he's trying to kill him and even that is drenched in irony. I mean we hate Hagen but his music is incredible. Does anyone else feel this way? By the time I get to the end of Act 2 and Mime is trying to get him to drink the poison I'm practically screaming KILL HIM KILL HIM FASTER!!!

I HATE MIME


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

I think Siegfried hated him too. Don't feel bad


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

By the way, i think we should open a sub-forum just for Wagner related stuff... Lately on this opera corner, we've been only talking about Wagner!


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## WAWilson (Nov 8, 2011)

dionisio said:


> I think Siegfried hated him too. Don't feel bad


Yeah and I get all that but come on, couldn't Wagner had at least given him better music to sing? It's like he's punishing the audience for 2 1/2 hours. We got the point after 10 minutes


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mime comes across at least at first, as a good person who raised an abandoned Orphan. I remember being angry at Siegfried for being rude to Mime, until Mime's true motives were revealed.


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

I agree to some extent, but i find that a really good tenor, specially with great acting skills, can make for some intense experience with this character! But overall, yes, his presence is annoying -.-


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## Volve (Apr 14, 2013)

dionisio said:


> By the way, i think we should open a sub-forum just for Wagner related stuff... Lately on this opera corner, we've been only talking about Wagner!


I second this!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Mime is more of a comical figure - a clumsy dwarf who can never do anything right and whose oh-so-clever scheming always falls through, (while Hagen is an epic, dramatic villain). I think it was Wagner's intent for the listener to feel contempt for Mime and his endless trickery, and he tried to express that with that irritating tune Mime sings over and over in the first act.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

dionisio said:


> By the way, i think we should open a sub-forum just for Wagner related stuff... Lately on this opera corner, we've been only talking about Wagner!


It depends on your reason for expressing that wish: if it is to honor the greatest composer of opera (if not the greatest composer, period) with a corner of his own, I am all for it. If that reason is "get all that Wagner stuff out of my sight!", then... well... no


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

In Das Rheingold, Mime is the pitiful victim of his brother's brother's brutality and insane greed .It's impossible not to feel pity for him. 
But by Siegfried, he has been corrupted by greed himself and has raised Siegfried only for the chance to 
kill him eventually and thus gain the ring and the gold for himself .
He may have felt sorry for Sieglinde when she died giving birth to Siegfried, but by now he truly hates him,
and the feeling is mutual .
Siegfried,by the way, is probably the most misunderstood character in opera . He's not stupid or cruel .
He is an orphan who knows nothing about his origin, has grown up as a child of nature ,and is a headstrong and rebellious teenager . He's extremely curious about his origin and senses that Mime does not really love him .
But by Gotterdammerung, under Brunnhilde's guidance, he has matured considerably .


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

The music's not that bad, but the way they have most singers deliver it, with a nasal, strained tone, is certainly unpleasant.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I think Mime is the most interesting character in Siegfried, and I like his music. The hero, on the other hand, is a moronic goon, and he only gets worse in Götterdämmerung.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Volve said:


> I second this!


Those who do not care for Wagner urgently third this.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

WAWilson said:


> ...MIME! It is a combination of that awful jumping chromatic and ugly music Wagner wrote for him and the fact that most of the singers who play him go to extra lengths to make him annoying.


This is precisely why I prefer productions using one of those guys in whiteface with red-and-white striped shirts. And not singing a single syllable! Given the character's name, it's probably what Wagner had in mind...


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

KenOC said:


> This is precisely why I prefer productions using one of those guys in whiteface with red-and-white striped shirts. And not singing a single syllable! Given the character's name, it's probably what Wagner had in mind...


Don't give those German stage directors any ideas. Coming up next season: the mime Ring, getting to heart of Wagner's true vision by dispensing with those confusing words and distracting music altogether.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Crudblud said:


> I think Mime is the most interesting character in Siegfried, and I like his music. The hero, on the other hand, is a moronic goon, and he only gets worse in Götterdämmerung.


The horribleness of Mime is the only reason I can put up with Siegfried, who I want to slap around a little very early on. Never understood why Brünnhilde calls him a hero in Götterdämmerung - what's he done, kill a dragon in its own lair, when it's minding its own business. If that's Wagner's idea of a hero he can keep him.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

That is sort of like editing a piece for nothing but the bits you find pretty. The contrasts of less than pretty are very much a part of the impact the 'prettier' parts have, and without they are just... pretty bits.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

mamascarlatti said:


> Never understood why Brünnhilde calls him a hero in Götterdämmerung - what's he done, kill a dragon in its own lair, when it's minding its own business. If that's Wagner's idea of a hero he can keep him.


I think the greatest heroic deed of Siegfried was not the dragon, but passing through the magic fire that guarded Brünnhilde. And the fire was such, that only the man who was afraid of nothing, not even of Wotan's spear, could go through it:

_Wer meines Speeres
Spitze fürchtet,
durchschreite das Feuer nie! _

(Whosoever fears
the tip of my spear
shall never pass through the fire! )

Maybe I am interpreting too much into it, but it seems, Wagner's idea was that redemption from the curse of the Ring was only possible by the man and woman together. Siegfried did his part by winning the Ring from the dragon, but it was only Brünnhilde who could complete the deed.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> I think the greatest heroic deed of Siegfried was not the dragon, but passing through the magic fire that guarded Brünnhilde. And the fire was such, that only the man who was afraid of nothing, not even of Wotan's spear, could go through it:
> 
> _Wer meines Speeres
> Spitze fürchtet,
> ...


Yes, I've always thought Brünnhilde was the real hero of the Ring. She understands the implications of her actions - for example saving Sieglinde - but she does it anyway.

There is nothing heroic in Siegfried because he feels no fear. He seems to have no conception of danger - a bit like a toddler. To me heroes are people who understand the danger but still perform the heroic act.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Let's face it Siegfried is a boneheaded idiot. As they say where I come from he was 'strong t'arm and thick in t'ead.'
Hero? Kills an elderly dragon who has long gone into retirement. Kills an unarmed dwarf who has brought him up. Defeats a has-been god then passes through the fire. Probably 'no sense no feeling!' Finally stares at his aunt and exclaims 'this is no man!' Something that is rather obvious to the least intelligent member of the audience. 
Wagner's heroes are usually pretty awful and Siegfried is probably the worst of them. I find that the music of the first two acts rather tired as if Wagner was trying to get them out of the way. Fortunately he gets things together in the last act which is splendid, in spite of over-parting most singers.
Take some glorious music away and Siegfried is a bully and a boor. Perhaps an unconscious self-portrait by the composer of at least part of his disagreeable personality?
As for Mime - who would not be disagreeable and cantankerous if you had this ghastly adolescent foisted on you? Seigfreid's first act is to terrorise the poor old thing with a bear! So I do feel sympathy for Mime, a dwarf with a bullying brother and a petulant foster-son. But I do feel relief when he meets his end (he is murdered by the hero, of course) and stops that awful nasal whining!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it Siegfried is a boneheaded idiot. As they say where I come from he was 'strong t'arm and thick in t'ead.'
> Hero? Kills an elderly dragon who has long gone into retirement. Kills an unarmed dwarf who has brought him up. Defeats a has-been god then passes through the fire. Probably 'no sense no feeling!' Finally stares at his aunt and exclaims 'this is no man!' Something that is rather obvious to the least intelligent member of the audience.
> Wagner's heroes are usually pretty awful and Siegfried is probably the worst of them. I find that the music of the first two acts rather tired as if Wagner was trying to get them out of the way. Fortunately he gets things together in the last act which is splendid, in spite of over-parting most singers.
> Take some glorious music away and Seigfried is a bully and a boor. Perhaps an unconscious self-portrait by the composer of at least part of his disagreeable personality?


Actually, Wagner himself lost most of his interest in Siegfried by the time _Siegfried's Tod_ became _Goetterdaemerrung_, that's why he is one of the less important characters in it.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Actually, Wagner himself lost most of his interest in Siegfried by the time _Siegfried's Tod_ became _Goetterdaemerrung_, that's why he is one of the less important characters in it.


But I believe the libretti were written in reverse order, weren't they? Wagner began with Siegfried's Tod and worked backwards. Which would mean that was his original intention.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

First of all, the Ring libretti are, at the worst, not worse than most other opera libretti (some of which more resemble _soap opera_) seem to be.

Second, both the dragon and the dwarf were trying to kill Siegfried first.

Third, a lot of the personas and events of the Ring were taken by Wagner from sources much older and from the times much more barbaric than either Wagner's time or our own, when the tales of heroic exploits were also cruder than our modern sensibilities would like, and when heroes were expected to go hunt and kill dragons and perform other suchlike feats.
There are a couple things in the Ring, Sieglinde and Siegmund's relationship for example, that would have been disagreeable for me, if I did not know that Wagner had not invented it all by himself, but that Siegmund and Sieglinde existed since times immemorial in the Icelandic _Volsungasaga_ and in various other mythologies. Of course Wagner adapted, combined and reworked his sources in various ways, but he never entirely departed from them. And that whole "mythological connection" is something that I particularly treasure.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

DavidA said:


> But I believe the libretti were written in reverse order, weren't they? Wagner began with Siegfried's Tod and worked backwards. Which would mean that was his original intention.


No, because the ending in particular was revised to reflect his different focus on the whole story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen:_Composition_of_the_poem#The_end_of_the_Ring

Note how Siegfried's role is significantly diminished in the revisions.


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## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Siegrfried doesn't just kill an "innocent" dragon for fun. Mime has put him up to it so he can give him a sleeping potion after he kills the dragon and then kill him in order to steal the ring and the gold .
Anyway, Fafner is not something you would want to mess with. His saliva alone can corrode flesh ,
and he could eat you the way people eat tater tots .


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## WAWilson (Nov 8, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Let's face it Siegfried is a boneheaded idiot. As they say where I come from he was 'strong t'arm and thick in t'ead.'
> Hero? Kills an elderly dragon who has long gone into retirement. Kills an unarmed dwarf who has brought him up. Defeats a has-been god then passes through the fire. Probably 'no sense no feeling!' Finally stares at his aunt and exclaims 'this is no man!' Something that is rather obvious to the least intelligent member of the audience.
> Wagner's heroes are usually pretty awful and Siegfried is probably the worst of them. I find that the music of the first two acts rather tired as if Wagner was trying to get them out of the way. Fortunately he gets things together in the last act which is splendid, in spite of over-parting most singers.
> Take some glorious music away and Siegfried is a bully and a boor. Perhaps an unconscious self-portrait by the composer of at least part of his disagreeable personality?
> As for Mime - who would not be disagreeable and cantankerous if you had this ghastly adolescent foisted on you? Seigfreid's first act is to terrorise the poor old thing with a bear! So I do feel sympathy for Mime, a dwarf with a bullying brother and a petulant foster-son. But I do feel relief when he meets his end (he is murdered by the hero, of course) and stops that awful nasal whining!


Siegfried is not a bone headed idiot - his only communication is with animals and Mime. If he was an idiot he would not spend the first two acts trying to figure out who his mother and father were and talk about how happy the animals seem to be since they have families. He's clearly got a sensitive side.

When did killing a dragon ever become non-heroic or not something good to do? Do you guys work for PETA or something? Heroes are always slaying dragons and rescuing maidens. A dragon whose saliva melts your skin lives in the woods? Umm someone should go hunt and kill that thing. That's what people do in these types of stories. Forging a sword, killing a dragon, braving a fire ringed mountain top to rescue a woman - all pretty heroic deeds. On top of that - Siegfried is given the most (excuse my low terminology) bad-assed music and themes in perhaps the whole cycle. That alone makes him awesome. From the frustration/anger music he unleashes on Mime to the actual 'Siegfried' leitmotiv first sung by Brunnhilde, to the horn calls, to the mature heroic theme featured in the funeral march, his music is just plan amazing.

Mime, on the other hand, is the real moron. He wastes his three questions to Wotan, prattles on like a guy with tourette syndrome, and continually plots Siegfried's death. I wish that instead of striking the anvil to test Notung's strength, Siegfried had just killed him then and gone off searching for the dragon on his own. One act of Mime would have been plenty.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

The characters in Wagner's Ring Cycle are not too far removed from the basic types you would see in Norse and Greek Mythology, the modern idea of the 'hero' is actually quite different from the 'heroes' in these types of stories. (In much the same way as a Shakespearean 'comedy' is very different from the idea of a modern 'comedy'). The meaning of the word has changed. Mythological "Heroes" were basically just characters with a lot of strength (often in some kind of position of power/influence) who could take what they wanted by force. The 'gods' in these types of stories also differed greatly from more modern ideas of the divine, and were often very flawed even down right evil beings.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> No, because the ending in particular was revised to reflect his different focus on the whole story.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen:_Composition_of_the_poem#The_end_of_the_Ring
> 
> Note how Siegfried's role is significantly diminished in the revisions.


So even Wagner got sick of him? Gotterdamerung always strikes me as quite pointless despite the music. Siegfried leaves his now wife to do heroic deeds. He never does anything except get himself conned into kidnapping his wife and giving her to someone else. He then gets himself stabbed in the back and his wife commits suicide. Even when I first knew it as a lad it always seemed a real letdown and anti-climax.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

WAWilson said:


> Siegfried is not a bone headed idiot - his only communication is with animals and Mime. If he was an idiot he would not spend the first two acts trying to figure out who his mother and father were and talk about how happy the animals seem to be since they have families. He's clearly got a sensitive side.
> 
> When did killing a dragon ever become non-heroic or not something good to do? Do you guys work for PETA or something? Heroes are always slaying dragons and rescuing maidens. A dragon whose saliva melts your skin lives in the woods? Umm someone should go hunt and kill that thing. That's what people do in these types of stories. Forging a sword, killing a dragon, braving a fire ringed mountain top to rescue a woman - all pretty heroic deeds. On top of that - Siegfried is given the most (excuse my low terminology) bad-assed music and themes in perhaps the whole cycle. That alone makes him awesome. From the frustration/anger music he unleashes on Mime to the actual 'Siegfried' leitmotiv first sung by Brunnhilde, to the horn calls, to the mature heroic theme featured in the funeral march, his music is just plan amazing.
> 
> Mime, on the other hand, is the real moron. He wastes his three questions to Wotan, prattles on like a guy with tourette syndrome, and continually plots Siegfried's death. I wish that instead of striking the anvil to test Notung's strength, Siegfried had just killed him then and gone off searching for the dragon on his own. One act of Mime would have been plenty.


No doubt Siegfrieg's intellectual capacity is only up to communicating with animals and Mime. In any case, he cheats with the Woodbird as the dragon's blood gives him the ability to understand the thing. And just when did a hero kill an unarmed dwarf much smaller than himself?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> And just when did a hero kill an unarmed dwarf much smaller than himself?


Beware of judging Siegfried by your puny moral standards. Remember Nietzsche?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Beware of judging Siegfried by your puny moral standards. Remember Nietzsche?


So is not approving of killing unarmed dwarfs 'puny moral standards'?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> So is not approving of killing unarmed dwarfs 'puny moral standards'?


"Zarathustra presents the overman (Übermensch) as the creator of new values, and he appears as a solution to the problem of the death of God and nihilism. The overman does not follow morality of common people since it favors mediocrity but instead rises above the notion of good and evil and above the herd." And, therefore, who are you to judge?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> "Zarathustra presents the overman (Übermensch) as the creator of new values, and he appears as a solution to the problem of the death of God and nihilism. The overman does not follow morality of common people since it favors mediocrity but instead rises above the notion of good and evil and above the herd." And, therefore, who are you to judge?


I do that a Nietzscheite contempt for compassion is merely a matter of opinion. I think that it is a heresy so horrible that its treatment must not be so much mental as moral, when it is not simply medical. Men are not always dead of a disease and men are not always damned by a delusion; but so far as they are touched by it they are destroyed by it.

GK Chesterton


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

wow ... good one.


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## WAWilson (Nov 8, 2011)

If by 'unarmed dwarf' you mean a dude holding up a cup of poison trying to coax you into drinking it then go for it Siegfried!!

I'm pretty sure in the honor code of these mythological stories that is more than enough justification for killing someone. Not to mention if you'd been listening to him sing for the past two hours you'd kill him too.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

tdc said:


> The characters in Wagner's Ring Cycle are not too far removed from the basic types you would see in Norse and Greek Mythology, the modern idea of the 'hero' is actually quite different from the 'heroes' in these types of stories


And what is the modern idea of a hero, may I ask?


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

WAWilson said:


> If by 'unarmed dwarf' you mean a dude holding up a cup of poison trying to coax you into drinking it then go for it Siegfried!!
> 
> I'm pretty sure in the honor code of these mythological stories that is more than enough justification for killing someone. Not to mention if you'd been listening to him sing for the past two hours you'd kill him too.


I will agree that the end of the simply awful anti-music Wagner gives Mime is welcome!

Perhaps if the Dragon had eaten him it may have been rather less distasteful than out and out murder! I think you will find in most legal codes that killing an unarmed civilian qualifies as murder, whether or not he is offering you poison!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

DavidA said:


> I will agree that the end of the simply awful anti-music Wagner gives Mime is welcome!
> 
> Perhaps if the Dragon had eaten him it may have been rather less distasteful than out and out murder! I think you will find in most legal codes that killing an unarmed civilian qualifies as murder, whether or not he is offering you poison!


In the early medieval societies that Wagner's sources come from, it would not be all that reprehensible. If anything, trying to poison someone would be considered more vile and deserving a more severe punishment than open assault with a sword, because it is sneaky and treacherous.

I'm telling you, Wagner's Ring should be (at least partly, for that is not all it is) taken as a legend, as an early Germanic saga. Between the times it could have happened in and our own time is more than a thousand years. Stop judging it by your modern morals.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

DavidA said:


> I will agree that the end of the simply awful anti-music Wagner gives Mime is welcome!
> 
> Perhaps if the Dragon had eaten him it may have been rather less distasteful than out and out murder! I think you will find in most legal codes that killing an unarmed civilian qualifies as murder, whether or not he is offering you poison!


If you truly find the act that repulsive and it is that big of a hindrance to your enjoyment of the drama, I doubt anything anyone says will sway your opinion. Personally I think it is unproductive to be literal minded about plot points like this. Next we could debate whether Fafner the dragon deserves to die. I think the broader themes that Wagner deals with in the story are far more interesting and rewarding. In his book on the Ring Father Lee notes how the story operates as a Bilungsroman or coming of age tale for Siegfried, and how the dwarf is a fairy tale symbol of arrested psychic growth. "Now, as is the rule with both hero-myths and fairy tales, all of this depicts psychological maturing."


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## Cavaradossi (Aug 2, 2012)

I kind of wonder if those who feel sorry for the poor dragon are forgetting that Siegfried (the opera) is only one installment of The Ring of the Nibelung. The dragon is current owner the Ring (which he killed his own brother to possess, by the way) and as such is subject to the pretty heavy curse of crushing worry and death that Alberich put on it way back in Das Rheingold.

Here's a refresher - Siegfried is doing Fafner a favor by releasing him from the curse:

_It shall gladden
no happy man;
its bright gleam shall light
on no one lucky!
Whoever possesses it
shall be consumed with care,
and whoever has it not
be gnawed with envy!
Each shall itch
to possess it,
but none in it
shall find pleasure!
Its owner shall guard it profitlessly,
for through it he shall meet his executioner!
Forfeit to death,
faint with fear shall he be fettered;
the length of his life
he shall long to die,
the ring's master
to the ring a slave,_


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> . Next we could debate whether Fafner the dragon deserves to die. ."


Now that is a very interesting subject. Presumably dragons are very rare creatures (I have never seen one myself in my lifetime although some people rate the mother-in-law within this species. But not in my case. She was a sweet lady completely unrelated to Fafner. In addition she loathed Wagner).
Now this all adds to Siegfried's absolutely philistine nature in that he goes and kills the last surviving member of a highly endangered species! Now do you think the Conservation lobby would rate this man as a hero? I think not. Someone would, in fact, drum up some conservation law he has violated and prosecute him. In fact is I wonder that conservationists haven't got hold of Wagner's opera and banned it as it might give the other kids ideas. So whether or not the dragon deserved to die it's obvious that he should not have died as he was an endangered species and such a killing would have violated every PC law of conservation.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Cavaradossi said:


> Here's a refresher - Siegfried is doing Fafner a favor by releasing him from the curse:
> 
> _It shall gladden
> no happy man;
> ...


Try telling that to the brokers when there is a financial crash!


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And what is the modern idea of a hero, may I ask?


This is a broad question. In a nutshell I think the term can still be used both ways, but generally speaking a modern idea of the hero has changed to reflect changing values in society. So, the modern hero will generally have some type of moral compass that resonates with what our society generally deems as 'good' and 'ethical'. These characters will tend to have more of an element of self-sacrifice, restraint and/or serving the greater good over themselves. All though the character of Robin Hood is very old, it wasn't until the 19th century that the attribute of stealing from the rich and _giving to the poor_ was given more emphasis, and Wagner was basing his Opera on much more ancient "heroes". Other examples: Luke Skywalker serves the good side of the force and thus refuses to kill his father or the evil emperor, the karate kid is taught by Mr. Miyagi that his fighting skills should only be used for self defense etc. I don't think the modern idea of a hero even necessarily needs great feats of physical strength or some foe to be overcome, for example a fireman could be seen as "heroic" simply for his chosen occupation.

It's not that these mythological characters could not perform these kinds of 'good' or philanthropic deeds, it is just that those types of deeds were not required for them to be considered heroes.


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## Zabirilog (Mar 10, 2013)

Mime may be annoying but he is also quite funny and a bravura role to a character tenor. For me he doesn't ruin anything, he makes the stage action funny with Siegfried.

...and about that guy...
Siegfried the Wälsung is a real hero. He is not a hero because he kills Fafner, not because he gets to Brünnhilde, he just is it. If I could sing a bit better, it would be my dream role...  He is a fearless boy, sword master, handsome lover... and so on. There is nothing boneheadedness in him! He could have saved Wotan, just if his wife had wanted it. But she didn't, and an evil half-dwarf destroyed him. Sad... But a fantastic character, a real hero.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> And what is the modern idea of a hero, may I ask?


My idea of a modern hero? What about an aquaitance of mine who rescues kids who scavenge off the rubbish tips in a large city in the developing world? He runs an organisation which feeds them and sees they are educated. Him and his wife have no possible advantage to themselves. They just do it for humanity. That's what I call a modern hero. So do the kids, BTW.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Getting back to Mime. When Gerhard Stoltze recorded the role for Decca it came in for some criticism. One critic wrote 'Listening to Stoltze's whining, snivelling Mime makes one wonder why on earth he ever became an opera singer.'


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

Mahlerian said:


> The music's not that bad, but the way they have most singers deliver it, with a nasal, strained tone, is certainly unpleasant.


I actually like the nasal tone. Mime would sound more bland and boring without it; as if Mime were human and not a nasty dwarf. Similarly with Alberich in Das Rheingold.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

badRomance said:


> I actually like the nasal tone. Mime would sound more bland and boring without it; as if Mime were human and not a nasty dwarf. Similarly with Alberich in Das Rheingold.


But Alberich is usually sung 'straight' by a bass baritone.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

and are ALL the Nibelungs dwarves, or just Alberich?


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

guythegreg said:


> and are ALL the Nibelungs dwarves, or just Alberich?


They are all dwarves.

I too don't mind the nasally quality usually used to depict Mime. More than his being a dwarf it fits in line with his personality traits from the beginning in Das Rheingold. Weak, whiny, sneaky and conniving.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm only getting familiar with the _Ring_, but here are some thoughts on the character of Siegfried:


He is strong and fearless, and he may have his naïvety and guilelessness speaking for him, but _certainly _ he is a bully; boorish, simple, easily violent. That is somehow, like, _the point_, isn't it? He has all the strength of his grandfather, but doesn't know what to do with it. He is a human being who grew up in an environment without any guidance, effective boundaries, social, emotional or intellectual nourishment, or love. This is not a noble, knightly savage but a rowdy that you'd rather not cross paths with.
Killing Mime and Fafner: There may be good, justifiable reasons to do so, but a rest of moral hesitation and doubt remains with the audience (not with Siegfried himself). 
I have _no doubts whatsoever_ that all of the above are fully conscious and deliberate choices on Wagner's part. Wagner likes his heroes with a twist. The _Ring_ is the story of a divine dream _failing_, and Siegfried, obviously, plays a large part in that.
Regarding the term "hero": In the _Ring_, there's a very specific usage of the word written for Wotan:

Wen ich liebe,
lass' ich für sich gewähren;
er steh' oder fall',
sein Herr ist er:
*Helden* nur können mir frommen.

_(Siegfried II 1)_Whom I love
I leave to fend for himself;
he stands or falls,
but is his own master:
I avail myself only of *heroes*. 

So, in Wotan's sense, a hero is the one who, independently of the will of the Gods, decides his own fate, his own victory or defeat. Wotan's very plan! Similarly:

Nur einer könnte,
was ich nicht darf:
ein *Held*, dem helfend
nie ich mich neigte;
der fremd dem Gotte,
frei seiner Gunst,
unbewußt,
ohne Geheiß,
aus eigner Not,
mit der eignen Wehr
schüfe die Tat,
die ich scheuen muß,
die nie mein Rat ihm riet,
wünscht sie auch einzig mein Wunsch.

_(Walküre II 2)_Only one person could do
what I may not:
a *hero* whom I have
never stooped to help.
A stranger to the god,
free from his favours,
unwitting
and unprompted,
out of his own needs
with his own weapons,
could do the deed
which I must avoid,
and which I never suggested,
even though it is my only wish.

But as we see, Siegfried doesn't know how to use his powers and options, falls into a trap too easily. Wotan's plan fails, epically.

But there is sense in _trying_!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> This is not a noble, knightly savage but a rowdy that you'd rather not cross paths with.


Since when can savages be noble and knightly? You are either one or the other 
And Siegfried _was_ noble. He had both strength and ability to love, even though he had not felt much of the latter, and a decent brain too. If he was so simple and naive, he would not be making observations about how it is impossible to make children without a mother, and how the young always resemble their elders. Nor would he ever want to find out who his mother had been, or what the birds sang to him about. Nor would he hate Mime, sensing that the dwarf hated him as well, he would simply believe all that dwarf-talk about "parently love". It's just that he was "nature-smart", not "people-smart". Nature does not lie, at the worst it fights back, it is people who lie. I think it was Wagner's intent to show the tragedy of a brave, noble, honest nature in a world where weak people (and dwarves) rule by deceit and trickery.



> Killing Mime and Fafner: There may be good, justifiable reasons to do so, but a rest of moral hesitation and doubt remains with the audience (not with Siegfried himself).


Actually Siegfried did feel pity for the dragon after he had killed him:

_So grimm und tückisch er war, 
sein Tod grämt mich doch schier,
da viel üblere Schächer
unerschlagen noch leben!
Der mich ihn morden hiess,
den hass' ich mehr als den Wurm! _

Grim and spiteful as it was,
its death grieves me sore,
since much more evil villains
still live unpunished!
More than the dragon do I hate
the one who bade me kill it!

The dragon was after all, only an animal who acted true to his dragon nature - to guard his treasure and try to kill anyone who would steal it, but it was the treacherous, scheming dwarf who had tricked Siegfried into doing a deed Siegfried would not do of his own will.



> So, in Wotan's sense, a hero is the one who, independent of the will of the Gods, decides his own fate, his own victory or defeat. Wotan's very plan! But as we see, Siegfried doesn't know how to use his powers and options, falls into a trap too easily. Wotan's plan fails, epically.


Ultimately it did not fail. Wotan's plan was to rid the world from the curse of the Ring, and it did happen in the end. Except that the hero(ine) who did it was not Siegfried, but Brünnhilde, because in Wagner's view (as I understand it, at least) it takes both a man and a woman to redeem the world: the power of greed overcome by the power of love. And it was also Wotan's plan for Siegfried and Brünnhilde to meet. In the third act of _Siegfried_ he comes out to meet Siegfried before the fiery rock, and he provokes the hero to attack him, to see if it really was the one destined for Brünnhilde, the one who did not fear his spear. And it was also Wotan's plan that the gods should perish, because from then on they were powerless. The age of the gods had ended, the age of man had come.

Ah yes, and thanks for sharing your thoughts!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Ebab said:


> Wen ich liebe,
> lass' ich für sich gewähren;
> er steh' oder fall',
> sein Herr ist er:
> ...


That is one of my favorite quotes in all of the Ring: the essence of the whole heathen Nordic faith in a few short lines.


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## Ebab (Mar 9, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Since when can savages be noble and knightly? You are either one or the other


The term "Noble savage" is a concept older than Wagner; later often (erroneously?; I don't know) associated with Jean-Jacques Rousseau. My point was that Wagner deliberately did _not_ choose to make Siegfried a noble savage.



SiegendesLicht said:


> And Siegfried _was_ noble. He had both strength and ability to love, even though he had not felt much of the latter, and a decent brain too. If he was so simple and naive, he would not be making observations about how it is impossible to make children without a mother, and how the young always resemble their elders. Nor would he ever want to find out who his mother had been, or what the birds sang to him about. Nor would he hate Mime, sensing that the dwarf hated him as well, he would simply believe all that dwarf-talk about "parently love". It's just that he was "nature-smart", not "people-smart". Nature does not lie, at the worst it fights back, it is people who lie. I think it was Wagner's intent to show the tragedy of a brave, noble, honest nature in a world where weak people (and dwarves) rule by deceit and trickery.


I _feel_ Brünnhilde speaking, and I mean that without an ounce of irony or cynicism.

Wagner knew how to make a point, and he knew men, and women. He would have loved you speaking on behalf of Siegfried! I don't think you're wrong at all; it's just another way of looking at the character.



> Actually Siegfried did feel pity for the dragon after he had killed him:
> 
> [...]


Thanks for pointing that out; I agree.



SiegendesLicht said:


> Ultimately it did not fail. Wotan's plan was to rid the world from the curse of the Ring, and it did happen in the end. Except that the hero(ine) who did it was not Siegfried, but Brünnhilde, because in Wagner's view (as I understand it, at least) it takes both a man and a woman to redeem the world: the power of greed overcome by the power of love. And it was also Wotan's plan for Siegfried and Brünnhilde to meet. In the third act of _Siegfried_ he comes out to meet Siegfried before the fiery rock, and he provokes the hero to attack him, to see if it really was the one destined for Brünnhilde, the one who did not fear his spear. And it was also Wotan's plan that the gods should perish, because from then on they were powerless. The age of the gods had ended, the age of man had come.


Wotan's plan was to create a new race that could carry out his own conceptions, without the burden of hindering contracts.

I'd agree that giving back the ring means a kind of closure to the tetralogy. But that wasn't Wotan's dream. Wotan's dream is yet to be fulfilled.


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## WAWilson (Nov 8, 2011)

But Wotan knew down deep that his plan would fail. He knew it was hopeless. This is why his back and forth in Siegfried makes sense. In his monologue with Brunnhilde, Walkure Act 2, he reveals that his whole world is built on lies and false dealings. His spear is hypocritical and he has already poisoned the world well before the operas begin. He comes to this realization in between Rheingold and Walkure, but it was always a doomed venture. However, like everyone, he struggles with denial off and on throughout the entire cycle. Even in Gotterdammerung when he says 'if only she would return the ring'. But in the monologue he reveals that things have always been lost and always will be: 

"When young love's
delights waned in me,
my spirit longed for power.
Impetuous wishes
roused me to madness
and I won the world for myself.
With unwitting dishonesty
I acted disloyally,
by treaties I made alliance
with powers concealing evil."

If he is the god of all gods and god of all wars/battles, he has already poisoned everything. This is why I believe the spear motive is so dark and overpowering. It is not a noble truce, a fair trade; it is something taken by force, manipulation and strength.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

SiegendesLicht said:


> think it was Wagner's intent to show the tragedy of a brave, noble, honest nature in a world where weak people (and dwarves) rule by deceit and trickery. .


Ok. I know he was under the influence of a love potion, but in Götterdämmerung his abduction of procurement of Brünnhilde for Gunther revolts me. If he had such a fundamentally brave and noble nature he would not bully an unarmed woman like that.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> Ok. I know he was under the influence of a love potion, but in Götterdämmerung his abduction of procurement of Brünnhilde for Gunther revolts me. If he had such a fundamentally brave and noble nature he would not bully an unarmed woman like that.


I've always understood that to scene/scenario as depicting Siegfried's ultimate corruption at the hands of society.

But it's interesting. I think the reason his funeral music is so moving in act 3 is not because of his _ fulfillment_ as a hero, but because we see the tragedy of such great promise going down in defeat. He himself seems to become conscious of this for the first time in his very moving narration before and after he is stabbed by Hagen, like for the first time he understands the hope he reprented...


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

The problem is that Mime is supposed to be *funny*, but very few performers are successful in making him funny... often because of heavy handed stagings, both traditional and modern.

The one recording of Siegfried that actually works as a comedy in the first act is Goodall's English Ring. When you can hear the inflections in a language you actually understand it works much better. If you have to translate a joke, it loses all its humor.

Here's another clue... In Rhinegold, Loge is supposed to be funny too.


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## badRomance (Nov 22, 2011)

DavidA said:


> But Alberich is usually sung 'straight' by a bass baritone.


More straight than Mime. But Gustav Neidlinger for Bohm does sing slightly nasal and he barks in Das Rheingold.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Of course we are forgetting another aspect of Mime. Interesting program on the Ring last night on BBC TV. They covered the character of Mime and all the presenter, conductor Tony Pappano and his two guests - musicologist John Deathridge and producer Keith Warner - reckoned the character revealed Wagner's anti-semitism. Of course it is by implication rather than in the text itself, but there can be little doubt the character shows the dark side of Wagner's sometimes demented philosophy. this is amplified whenSiegfried kills him in cold blood. Warner said that he tries to tone it down but he said it is always there. You cannot get round it. I felt it was significant that there was no disagreement on this point from three people who obviously loved Wagner's music.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

Last time I checked the Jews were the goblins of Gringotts Bank from "Harry Potter". Rowling, that evil, nasty antisemite!


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Last time I checked the Jews were the goblins of Gringotts Bank from "Harry Potter". Rowling, that evil, nasty antisemite!


I don't think Rowling wrote Das Judenthum in der Musik when she was writing Potter.

The problem is that it is there in the background to the writing, however much some people might try to deny it. It is something we must come to terms with when listening to the music.


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## SilenceIsGolden (May 5, 2013)

DavidA said:


> The problem is that it is there in the background to the writing, however much some people might try to deny it.


It's actually unfounded conjecture at best. But I'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.


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## Tehzim (May 19, 2013)

I think as time goes by and we gain some distance from the evils (and appropriation of art) by Hitler the more we'll be able to see characters like Mime as (at worst) anti-Semitic caricatures of a milder sort. I'm more terrified of the Ubermensch, personified in Siegfried, an amoral beast. The idea that this is the ultimate in human evolution is more disturbing than ugly, greedy dwarves. I'm not sure that this was Wagner's intention, but it's hard not to see it through Nietzsche type eyes.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

superhorn said:


> In Das Rheingold, Mime is the pitiful victim of his brother's brother's brutality and insane greed .It's impossible not to feel pity for him.
> But by Siegfried, he has been corrupted by greed himself and has raised Siegfried only for the chance to
> kill him eventually and thus gain the ring and the gold for himself .
> He may have felt sorry for Sieglinde when she died giving birth to Siegfried, but by now he truly hates him,
> ...


Well said. I love Siegfried best of all the Ring operas. All of it. I love the music Wagner gave Mime, and his scene with the Wanderer is one of my favorite parts of the whole cycle. I have never understood Walküre's popularity and the lack of Siegfried's. To each his own. I probably listen to the first two acts of Siegfried more often than any other parts of the cycle.


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## gellio (Nov 7, 2013)

WAWilson said:


> Siegfried is not a bone headed idiot - his only communication is with animals and Mime. If he was an idiot he would not spend the first two acts trying to figure out who his mother and father were and talk about how happy the animals seem to be since they have families. He's clearly got a sensitive side.
> 
> When did killing a dragon ever become non-heroic or not something good to do? Do you guys work for PETA or something? Heroes are always slaying dragons and rescuing maidens. A dragon whose saliva melts your skin lives in the woods? Umm someone should go hunt and kill that thing. That's what people do in these types of stories. Forging a sword, killing a dragon, braving a fire ringed mountain top to rescue a woman - all pretty heroic deeds. On top of that - Siegfried is given the most (excuse my low terminology) bad-assed music and themes in perhaps the whole cycle. That alone makes him awesome. From the frustration/anger music he unleashes on Mime to the actual 'Siegfried' leitmotiv first sung by Brunnhilde, to the horn calls, to the mature heroic theme featured in the funeral march, his music is just plan amazing.
> 
> Mime, on the other hand, is the real moron. He wastes his three questions to Wotan, prattles on like a guy with tourette syndrome, and continually plots Siegfried's death. I wish that instead of striking the anvil to test Notung's strength, Siegfried had just killed him then and gone off searching for the dragon on his own. One act of Mime would have been plenty.


Thank you. Everyone needs to read what you wrote. I can't believe people don't get that Siegfried is an intelligent hero. I love everything you said and agree 100%.


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Siegfried always seems like a very modern day tale to me. The step-father who brings the child of someone else up. He doesn't have any maternal feelings for the boy and is only doing his duty. He rules by fear. The boy grows up without love and unable to love. As the boy gets older he begins to fear his young, muscular warrior. He fears that Siegfried will turn on him, that he can no longer control him.

I am sure a lot of kids are growing up like that.

I really enjoy the early scenes with Mime and Siegfried


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

SilenceIsGolden said:


> It's actually unfounded conjecture at best..


Only if you deliberately ignore it. Barry Millington shows in his book, 'The Sorcerer of Bayreuth' how Jewish stereotypes are woven into the operas. Mime is not a Jew any more than Beckmesser is. But Wagner gives them Jewish characteristics woven into the characters, an oblique expression of his anti-semitism. It has been called 'the grit in the oyster'. 
This is something we just have to come to terms with as it is impossible to ignore, any more than the racism and misogynism in Die Zauberflote are also there.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

gellio said:


> Thank you. Everyone needs to read what you wrote. I can't believe people don't get that Siegfried is an intelligent hero. I love everything you said and agree 100%.


I can't see anything about him that is intelligent. He's a bone head!


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

DavidA said:


> I can't see anything about him that is intelligent. He's a bone head!


I think that rather than a bonehead, he is a person who has received no education and been taught no manners. He has some natural intelligence - vide his conclusions about mothers and fathers from observing animals.

That doesn't make him in more likeable though, or more heroic.


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## Jobis (Jun 13, 2013)

Siegfried is an example of why incest is taboo and reprehensible; it produces such detestable brutes!

I liked the analysis of Ebab; that he shows the failure of the gods' grand plans. It does, however, make the ring appear more pessimistic and cynical. I view Wotan as the hero of the entire cycle, and a tragic hero too; he reminds me of a more stable, potent version of King Lear.


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## sharik (Jan 23, 2013)

WAWilson said:


> that terrible character, the worst in the entire cycle IMO, MIME! It is a combination of that awful jumping chromatic and ugly music Wagner wrote for him and the fact that most of the singers who play him go to extra lengths to make him annoying


it's called *realism*.



WAWilson said:


> Why did Wagner have to go so overboard in making Mime so unlikable. He doesn't sing a single beautiful thing in his entire time on stage


it's called realism; get used to it if want to understand art.


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