# How do I write an orchestral(ish) piece?



## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Hello all  I stumbled across this forum and wondered if any of you could advise me...basically, I'm currently in a 4 piece band of guitars, bass and drums, and I've written/am writing an album with an orchestra's backing, much in the style of Love's 'Forever Changes' album:






If anyone could help me out, I'm wondering what instruments to use ie how many violins, do two violins play the same part, where do I even start etc. If there's anything you think I need to know it would be much appreciated! many thanks  will


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

You're going to need at least five million violins and a saxophone the size of the Empire State Building.


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Haha anything else? I've used a midi program to rough out one of the songs with guitar, two violins, a bass, some other instruments, but I'm essentially new to this sort of thing and wondered on the 'essentials'


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Well it all depends on what kind of sound you want. First of all, are you hoping for string players to play with you? If so, then your parts are obviously going to be constrained by who you can get.

If not (and you're just synthesising), then you want to start out knowing what a typical string ensemble comprises: violins, violas, cellos, and bass. You may want to just write for violins and bass if you want to keep it simple though.

The number of instruments you want will be affected by the kind of texture you want - for example, though the same instrument is being played, a single fiddler sounds a lot different to a large group of violinists playing in unison. A typical orchestra will have something in the region of 6 - 16 individual players for each section, depending on the number of available players and the character of the piece. Note, however, that there should be more violins than violas, more violas than cellos, more cellos than bass (12 / 10 / 8 / 6 as an example).

Is that a good enough start? Do you have any more specific questions?


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Thanks, thats a great help and it's also made me realise how much learning I have to do...in terms of a 'budget' orchestra (because this is for a one off show, which hopefully will go well enough that we can ask for funding/get money from tickets to do something larger scale). We/I was thinking of paying students to play as session musicians for this one off concert and we're only 18 ourselves. What would a typical small orchestra comprise of?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

jokerofthepack said:


> Thanks, thats a great help and it's also made me realise how much learning I have to do...in terms of a 'budget' orchestra (because this is for a one off show, which hopefully will go well enough that we can ask for funding/get money from tickets to do something larger scale). We/I was thinking of paying students to play as session musicians for this one off concert and we're only 18 ourselves. What would a typical small orchestra comprise of?


See this wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra#Classical_Orchestra

As you can see, the orchestra has been expanded hugely over time. I would suggest starting out with the "Classical" orchestra (what Haydn and Mozart would have used). It could be advisable to even use just a string orchestra (use the Classical orchestra with just the string section).


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

Well, a small orchestra is going to entirely depend on who you can get, but the central instruments are:

Woodwind: Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon (1 or 2 of each)
Brass: Horn, Trumpet, Trombone, Tuba (1 or 2 of each)
Percussion: Timpani + anything else percussiony! (1 person to play)
Strings (as before): Violin, Viola, Cello, Bass (12 / 10 / 6 / 8, as an example)

Given your situation, it's probably unlikely that you're going to get all of these instruments in those numbers, so you may want to hold off on writing and find out who you can get to play first. It doesn't matter if you can't have all the standard instruments; you can just be a kind of acoustic/orchestral 'band'. Your main concern will just be with keeping balance - _i.e._, you won't want 10 flutes, 1 violin, and 6 basses! If all you can manage is a flute, a clarinet, a trumpet, a good few violins and a bassist, you can still work that to give a great sound.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> See this wikipedia page:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra#Classical_Orchestra
> 
> As you can see, the orchestra has been expanded hugely over time. I would suggest starting out with the "Classical" orchestra (what Haydn and Mozart would have used).


But make sure to double the amount of oboes, or even triple it. And do the same with the bassoons. And remember that the more horns the better. So have at least seven on hand, preferably nine.


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

Aksel said:


> But make sure to double the amount of oboes, or even triple it. And do the same with the bassoons. And remember that the more horns the better. So have at least seven on hand, preferably nine.


And a Wagner Tuba. Everything is better with a Wagner Tuba.


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Couchie said:


> And a Wagner Tuba. Everything is better with a Wagner Tuba.


True. And don't forget the five (or seven) offstage trombones. In addition to the five already in the orchestra, of course. Just like with Wagner tubas, everything is better with offstage trombones.


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## Polednice (Sep 13, 2009)

What about the fifteen piccolists prancing about in tutus?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

Polednice said:


> What about the fifteen piccolists prancing about in tutus?


Half of them can double on the English horn to great advantage.


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## Kopachris (May 31, 2010)

Guys, guys, wait.... Think less "symphony orchestra" and more "orchestral backing for pop/rock." IIRC, those are usually just flute(s), trumpets, sometimes horns and/or trombone, occasionally a saxophone or two, and some strings. Nothing complex.

EDIT: Or did I just fall victim to Poe's Law?


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

How about a giant aeolian harp suspended above the audience, played by a jet turbine situated on the upper balcony?


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## Aksel (Dec 3, 2010)

kopachris said:


> guys, guys, wait.... Think less "symphony orchestra" and more "orchestral backing for pop/rock." iirc, those are usually just flute(s), trumpets, sometimes horns and/or trombone, occasionally a saxophone or two, and some strings. Nothing complex.
> 
> Edit: Or did i just fall victim to poe's law?


wagner tuba!!


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

jokerofthepack said:


> If anyone could help me out, I'm wondering what instruments to use...


I've skip-listened to the Love album on Spotify and, given my pc's crap sound, we have basically a string orchestra here with a few solo instruments to add colour, emphasis and to point up a melody and so on. It may be, if I listen closely to the whole thing, I'll realise that actually there's only one solo instrument - a trumpet.

Trumpet is good because it can go loud: if you had flute or oboe, you'd have to ensure the band were playing quietly/not at all when the wind instrument was playing. Clarinet, sax, not so much of a problem.
Of the other brass, horn is good (think Tommy). Trombone is a bit constricted/restricted.
Maybe piano.
And some tinkly percussion, like xylophone or vibes. And some big drums perhaps if that is in keeping with the music.

So, your orchestra is strings, one or more solo instruments, a bit of percussion.

Strings. To produce a familiar sort of sound, you'll need a mimimum of 8 violins, 4 violas, 2 or 3 cellos, 1 double bass, maybe more if you like the bass emphasised. You need twice as many violins because you want your violins divided into two groups (1 and 2). Conventional string orchestra writing (and I think we're talking conventional, judging by the Love album) is in four parts: violins 1, violins 2, violas, cellos. The double basses double the cellos but play an octave lower. All the violins 1 play the same thing, all the violins 2 the same, and so on. I'm oversimplifying so I don't spend all evening typing. If you've ever sung in a choir, it's equivalent to SATB. 
If you have only one group of violins, I'd have 5 players and the same numbers of other instruments as above. And you can increase the numbers pro rata.

You do need to learn a lot! The Wikipedia article on orchestration may help a little.
Good luck!


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> I've skip-listened to the Love album on Spotify and, given my pc's crap sound, we have basically a string orchestra here with a few solo instruments to add colour, emphasis and to point up a melody and so on. It may be, if I listen closely to the whole thing, I'll realise that actually there's only one solo instrument - a trumpet.
> 
> Trumpet is good because it can go loud: if you had flute or oboe, you'd have to ensure the band were playing quietly/not at all when the wind instrument was playing. Clarinet, sax, not so much of a problem.
> Of the other brass, horn is good (think Tommy). Trombone is a bit constricted/restricted.
> ...


Exactly what I was after, thank you!


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

jokerofthepack said:


> Exactly what I was after, thank you!


You're welcome


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Incidentally, listen to the string orchestra arrangement here - particularly at 1:04. Always worth learning from others.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

Polednice said:


> What about the fifteen piccolists prancing about in tutus?


I think they (I) would object to that proposition...

:tiphat:


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Hello, apologies for bringing up an old thread but I forgot I'd posted on here and have only just found the forum again! Again, thanks to those who have advised me already. The situation now is that I am applying for an arts composition where they give £30000 to someone to fund their artistic vision etc SO basically I thought this idea might actually come to life!

In which case...assuming I have a theoretical £30,000 to spend and I'm trying to get something similar to Arthur Lee & Love, should I stick with the pop/rock band mini orchestral arrangement? my personal opinion is yes, but other opinions would be appreciated!

My main question this time is...I know how I want the orchestrated parts to sound...but how do i communicate this to the musicians? There's only so much I can do on MuseScore. I read that Arthur lee sang the parts to an arranger - is this the best way? Any advise is appreciated, thanks for your time! 

P.S. This may sound over ambitious but the application process requires a lot of detail so I need to have everything planned...!


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Also...is there any recommended books out there? Like a beginners guide or something...


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Anyone? I'd really appreciate some help with getting the arranging side sorted and I need to write up a budget before the deadline...


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Would anyone recommend using software for the arranging part? I'm not sure what the best way to go about it...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

jokerofthepack said:


> Also...is there any recommended books out there? Like a beginners guide or something...


This is what I use. It gives a very detailed analysis and musical history of each instrument and shows plenty of musical examples as well.


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## jokerofthepack (Sep 29, 2011)

Brilliant, thanks, that looks and sounds helpful after reading the Amazon description. Is there any composers that I should be listening to? I've heard Bach's work was most influential for baroque pop, as it's called...


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

jokerofthepack said:


> Brilliant, thanks, that looks and sounds helpful after reading the Amazon description. Is there any composers that I should be listening to? I've heard Bach's work was most influential for baroque pop, as it's called...


Don't just listen to Bach, study Bach. Go to IMSLP and download scores and sheet music. Learn counterpoint and harmony. Also listen to Schoenberg. Another musical genius who has written music worth studying.


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