# Il Trovatore



## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

I notice that Il Trovatore is number 48 on the all-time list (TC), ahead of other masterpieces like Simon Boccanegra, Manon (Massenet), Faust, l'Elisir d'Amore and various and disputable worthies. I figure someone here must love Trovatore. I've seen it quite a few times and haven't yet been able to figure out why. What does it do for you? Where are the great moments?

PS nice avatar, no?


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> I notice that Il Trovatore is number 48 on the all-time list (TC), ahead of other masterpieces like Simon Boccanegra, Manon (Massenet), Faust, l'Elisir d'Amore and various and disputable worthies. I figure someone here must love Trovatore.


One that a lot of people knew.



guythegreg said:


> I've seen it quite a few times and haven't yet been able to figure out why. What does it do for you? Where are the great moments?


The music, definitely not the story :lol:

The incomparable Ettore Bastianini as Il Conte di Luna Il balen del suo sorriso








guythegreg said:


> PS nice avatar, no?


:tiphat:


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> One that a lot of people knew.


You think they just voted for it because it was familiar?

(yep, gotta got my headphones working!)


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## swiss (Jun 27, 2012)

_Il Trovatore_ gets a lot of heat for its poor story line and somewhat unadventurous score, but it truly is masterfully dramatic in the way it explores the predicaments of of the Count, Manrico, the Troubadour, Leonora, and Azucena through one another.

Check out the _Trovatore_ chapter of William Berger's _Verdi with a Vengeance_. It's a really interesting take on the opera.

As for favorite moments: the Anvil Chorus and "Condotti ell'era in ceppi" both from Act II, Manrico's "Ah! si, ben mio" and his "Di quella pira" from Act III, and the final scene in Act IV


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yay! Someone likes it! Thanks for the book recommendation too, I'll look for that.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I like a lot Il trovatore!!! And I think the story is perfect!! 
The story is so dark, the gypsis's revenge on the boy that was like a son for her. Is a horror opera like Macbeth. The music is fantastic, but the music it's so dark... "Stride la vampa" the horror aria from Azucena, "Di quella pira", the "Miserere" in the final act.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hesoos! do you have a bunch of different copies? Who does the best Azucena? From the plot, it seems like Azucena is really the key ingredient ... ?


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I didn't vote in that original compilation of "top 100" operas, but _Il Trovatore _is one of my favorites, as well. Yes, the plot is goofy, but the music is gorgeous. I think the Conte di Luna's aria, "Il balen del suo sorriso," is one of the most beautiful in the baritone repertoire. Especially when sung by Sherrill Milnes . . .


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Really! Well, I'm off to the library tomorrow, and if Stockhausen's "Gruppen" doesn't work for me, Milnes and Trovatore are my second choice. Wish me luck!


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> Hesoos! do you have a bunch of different copies? Who does the best Azucena? From the plot, it seems like Azucena is really the key ingredient ... ?


Yes, Azucena is the key ingredient. She is a good and tender mother but at the same time the revenge and the honor are for her the strongest emotions. All the story is about the revenge and the two Azucena's personalities. She is perhaps a witch like her mother. All the story happens in the dark, it's always night. The history's backgrounsd is a civil war in the Confederated Kingdom of Aragonia where the Catalan count Urgell wants to be the king and wants to avoid installing a Spanish king (I'm Catalan and I'm sorry that Urgell lost the war). In this civil war the brothers fight each other.

I have 2 cd's and 1 dvd. 
Domingo (Manrico), Plowright (Leonora), Zancannaro (Luna), and Fassbaender (Azucena)
Pavarotti (Manrico), Sutherland(Leonora), Wixell (Luna), and Horne (Azucena)






My dvd is the metropolitan old version, Pavarotti, Marton, Milnes and Zajick.






Perhaps the best Azucena for me is Zajick, she is more sinister and fits better with the character, but Horne has a more beautiful voice anyway. 
I like the best the duo Pavarotti- Sutherland. Pavarotti has a sweet voice and he can do that his voice sounds so sad, and Manrico is a sad character.

My best scene is the Misere. That's so macabre, The priests sing the Miserere to Manrico, a song of death, and Manrico sings a love song.
From youtube I've found Caruso singing this scene.






That story is for me really wonderful and I tried to draw a comic about it, but I just became tired and it's unfinished. Here's one page of my unfinished comic. In this page the capitan Ferrando tells the story of Azucena's mother. If you click on the image you can see it bigger


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

And here the Liszt's transcription for piano from the Trovatore's miserere


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

That's INTERESTING! Zajick is doing Ulrica at the Met in the fall, in Ballo in Maschera, and if she was a good Azucena, she ought to be a pretty good Ulrica, I'm thinking. 

And I shouldn't say this but there actually are two Wagner pieces I love, one either the Meistersinger overture or the Tannhauser overture (well, hell, they're interchangeable), by that Cuban pianist who was also a diplomat - Jorge something? aah, my mind is going ... but I'm not a complete Wagnerphobe, I just play one on TV ...


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## AndyS (Dec 2, 2011)

I've been getting familiar with this recently through the Callas recording

Favourite bit for me is absolutely the trio at the end of Act 2


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

guythegreg said:


> That's INTERESTING! Zajick is doing Ulrica at the Met in the fall, in Ballo in Maschera, and if she was a good Azucena, she ought to be a pretty good Ulrica, I'm thinking.
> ...


Sure she is a good Ulrica. And a good Lady Macbeth, or Ortrud in Lohengrin. Her voice can sounds sinister. The Ulrica's aria Re dell'abisso, affrettati "King of the abyss make haste" is similar with the Stride la vampa from Il trovatore.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

Hesoos said:


> Yes, Azucena is the key ingredient. She is a good and tender mother but at the same time the revenge and the honor are for her the strongest emotions. All the story is about the revenge and the two Azucena's personalities. She is perhaps a witch like her mother. All the story happens in the dark, it's always night. The history's backgrounsd is a civil war in the Confederated Kingdom of Aragonia where the Catalan count Urgell wants to be the king and wants to avoid installing a Spanish king (I'm Catalan and I'm sorry that Urgell lost the war). In this civil war the brothers fight each other.


Very interesting background information. Thanks for sharing.


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

If you are interested in the background of Il Trovatore, here is the link from wikipedia about the count Urgell and the civil war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_Caspe

The Aragon kingdom is in some of the Verdi's operas: Ernani, Il trovatore and I vespri siciliani. Italy and Sicily were a part of it and perhaps that's why Verdi is interested in it as an italian. The catalans are very proud about this history because this confederated kingdom or Crown was lidered by the catalans soldiers and the catalan ships. The dinasty was catalan, the dinasty of Barcelona until 1410 with the last catalan king. The next king was a castilian (Castile is the origin of Spain)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon

With Charles I (the king from Ernani, and the Filip II's father from Don Carlo) Castile and the Crown of Aragon were united. This king (in Ernani) was elected the Germany's emperor as Charles V. Then about the year 1500 the Castile empire (or Spain) went to America and Filipines. ... sorry if I'm boring....


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

I vespri siciliani:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Vespers#The_Aragonese_invasion
Il trovatore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_Caspe

Ernani:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_V,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

Don Carlo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos,_Prince_of_Asturias


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

I am a Trovatore fanatic and have 7-8 studio CD sets, many more live CD sets and a few DVDs

The very best Azucena for me is *Fiorenza Cossotto*, firey and dramatic with deep sinister chest voice with great tonal variation in her vocal range, her act II duets with son Manrico where she reveals their past history create some tremendous fireworks.

Check a sample here from Karajan DVD, masterful thrilling stacatto cadence and look at that half crazed look in her eye, brava!


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

For a change, I am not a fanatic. I like it, but I don't "love" Verdi's music very much... I have seen it in the theatre, I have a DVD, quite good I guess. I was impressed by Pavarotti's interpretation. Some music is wonderful, other is trivial "cuesta pira...corro a salvarte" is kind of very easy music. Verdi's music sounds like pasta for me and I don't like pasta very much.

Martin


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> For a change, I am not a fanatic. I like it, but I don't "love" Verdi's music very much... I have seen it in the theatre, I have a DVD, quite good I guess. I was impressed by Pavarotti's interpretation. Some music is wonderful, other is trivial "cuesta pira...corro a salvarte" is kind of very easy music. Verdi's music sounds like pasta for me and I don't like pasta very much.
> 
> Martin


There is in Verdi's music usually easy music, chorus with a some easy tune, some popular arias, but at the some time a lot of genial and elaborated music. Verdi was so popular and so rich because of his music was for all the public. I mean that Verdi wanted to compose help music on purpose. But, it's not help to compose help tunes... The Mozart's Non più andrai farfallone amoroso is a ridiculous tune but at the same time wonderful. I like a lot Di quella pira, is simple but wild.


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

Continuing with Trovatore........very best Leonora for me is Callas from her EMI studio recording, dramatic soprano with with such impressive agile colortura skills, unstoppable spirit and passion here......


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## DarkAngel (Aug 11, 2010)

For CD versions I like best:

*Historical in mono sound,* Callas EMI



*
Modern stereo version*, Price RCA (Corelli EMI is also great but OOP and very expensive used)
Many other very good ones out there.....
 

*For live version*: Corelli / Price


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

DarkAngel said:


> For CD versions I like best:
> 
> *Historical in mono sound,* Callas EMI
> 
> ...


As far as I remember, the masculin role is more important in Il Trovatore. I have the Pavarotti version on DVD. I like very much the witch.... It is a bit the same witch than *un ballo in maschera.*..but the big surprise, is the same witch than Gustav III by Daniel Auber who composed the same opera than Verdi beforee him. In fact, Gustav III (king oef Sweden) and un ballo in maschera have the same story. Did Verdi some plagiarism? Who knows. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Gustav III, I consider, is a more beautiful opera than un Ballo. It is longer and much better. I don't like pasta very much, I don't like Verdi very much... Yes, he have some sucessful parts, yes, he was popular, yes, his music wasn't for an elite but for the people. La donna è mobile makes me sick! Cuesta è la volonta del popolo, ignorant people! Corro a salvarti... All this is not my cup of tea, nor cappuccino... Lol

Martin


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> As far as I remember, the masculin role is more important in Il Trovatore. I have the Pavarotti version on DVD. I like very much the witch.... It is a bit the same witch than *un ballo in maschera.*..but the big surprise, is the same witch than Gustav III by Daniel Auber who composed the same opera than Verdi beforee him. In fact, Gustav III (king oef Sweden) and un ballo in maschera have the same story. Did Verdi some plagiarism? Who knows. I wouldn't be surprised at all. Gustav III, I consider, is a more beautiful opera than un Ballo. It is longer and much better. I don't like pasta very much, I don't like Verdi very much... Yes, he have some sucessful parts, yes, he was popular, yes, his music wasn't for an elite but for the people. La donna è mobile makes me sick! Cuesta è la volonta del popolo, ignorant people! Corro a salvarti... All this is not my cup of tea, nor cappuccino... Lol
> 
> Martin


Verdi wanted to compose an opera about Gustav III for the San Carlo opera house of Napoli, but there was in Napoli a king who did'nt like the idea of killing a king in the opera and for that all the story was situated in America and the king was a count. The original libretto was forbiden. Yes, is the same story. Verdi did plagiarism with Otello as well, but that was normal in that time. But the original Verdi's Gustav III is revived is these days. I've seen in The San Carlo of Napoli the original version of Un ballo in Maschera and was titled as Gustav III. These days the napolitans are sorry :lol:

I agree, the Verdi's music is sometimes easy, but not always. I mean that he wanted all the puplic, the normal people but too the elite. (saying ignorant people is maybe too hard). In Il trovatore normal people liked "all'opra, chi del gitano i giorni abella", the chorus of the people who is working and sing a ridiculous song, "di quella pira, all'armi" a song with chorus of warriors who wanted war "all'armi, all'armi" (they thinked: to the weapons, kill the austrians). But the elite, the intellectuals liked the "D'amor sull'ali rosee" the princess sings a high level song about sacrifice and ideal love and the wonderful "miserere" a gloomy duetto of death with a macabre chorus. Verdi united in his operas the normal people (ignorant) and the elites (intellectuals). If you like wise music, you maybe don't like the popular parts of the Verdi's operas. I love Verdi and I like all his operas, but (agree with you about la donna e mobile) sometimes I can't stand La donna è mobilem or il Libiamo. In il Trovatore I usually listen much more the 4 part. And in Aida is the same, the final act is the best.

DarkAngel, very interessant all your recomendations about il trovatore, very interessant:tiphat:. You are rigth, Callas is a wonderful Leonora, you made me search on you tube Scotto and Callas singing Il trovatore. I've found in you tube Callas with the Miserere, sorry if I'm boring about my Miserere... but is just fantastic


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## Hesoos (Jun 9, 2012)

myaskovsky2002 said:


> As far as I remember, the masculin role is more important in Il Trovatore.


I think that Manrico is more important in the story, but Leonora is more sofisticated, requires a best singer, she is a princess and all hers arias are sofisticated. Manrico's arias are more popular and easy, but Manrico's singer need to have a loud voice (like Pavarotti). Azucena is a strange case, his voice need to be brutal and inspire horror.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hesoos said:


> I think that Manrico is more important in the story, but Leonora is more sofisticated, requires a best singer, she is a princess and all hers arias are sofisticated. Manrico's arias are more popular and easy, but Manrico's singer need to have a loud voice (like Pavarotti). Azucena is a strange case, his voice need to be brutal and inspire horror.


I think das ist true.

Lol

Martin


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hesoos said:


> Verdi wanted to compose an opera about Gustav III for the San Carlo opera house of Napoli, but there was in Napoli a king who did'nt like the idea of killing a king in the opera and for that all the story was situated in America and the king was a count. The original libretto was forbiden. Yes, is the same story. Verdi did plagiarism with Otello as well, but that was normal in that time. But the original Verdi's Gustav III is revived is these days. I've seen in The San Carlo of Napoli the original version of Un ballo in Maschera and was titled as Gustav III. These days the napolitans are sorry :lol:
> 
> I agree, the Verdi's music is sometimes easy, but not always. I mean that he wanted all the puplic, the normal people but too the elite. (saying ignorant people is maybe too hard). In Il trovatore normal people liked "all'opra, chi del gitano i giorni abella", the chorus of the people who is working and sing a ridiculous song, "di quella pira, all'armi" a song with chorus of warriors who wanted war "all'armi, all'armi" (they thinked: to the weapons, kill the austrians). But the elite, the intellectuals liked the "D'amor sull'ali rosee" the princess sings a high level song about sacrifice and ideal love and the wonderful "miserere" a gloomy duetto of death with a macabre chorus. Verdi united in his operas the normal people (ignorant) and the elites (intellectuals). If you like wise music, you maybe don't like the popular parts of the Verdi's operas. I love Verdi and I like all his operas, but (agree with you about la donna e mobile) sometimes I can't stand La donna è mobilem or il Libiamo. In il Trovatore I usually listen much more the 4 part. And in Aida is the same, the final act is the best.
> 
> DarkAngel, very interessant all your recomendations about il trovatore, very interessant:tiphat:. You are rigth, Callas is a wonderful Leonora, you made me search on you tube Scotto and Callas singing Il trovatore. I've found in you tube Callas with the Miserere, sorry if I'm boring about my Miserere... but is just fantastic


You have said many interesting things.

About Maria Callas it is not civilized to say you don't like something she sung. As you may know, I am not civilized nor politically correct. I just don't like it.

Martin, always sincere


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Well good news everyone and thanks to all ... I'm now halfway to putting Trovatore on my favorites list! After looking over all the wonderful posts here, I listened to the Mlines/Domingo/L. Price recording at the library and it was very enjoyable. I've heard the opera a number of times, I just never liked it before. But now I do! So your efforts have not been wasted. I'm going to buy one probably on Thursday, if I can find a good one at the 2nd hand CD shop.


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## myaskovsky2002 (Oct 3, 2010)

guythegreg said:


> Well good news everyone and thanks to all ... I'm now halfway to putting Trovatore on my favorites list! After looking over all the wonderful posts here, I listened to the Mlines/Domingo/L. Price recording at the library and it was very enjoyable. I've heard the opera a number of times, I just never liked it before. But now I do! So your efforts have not been wasted. I'm going to buy one probably on Thursday, if I can find a good one at the 2nd hand CD shop.


My efforts have been wasted though, LOL


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Is the problem a lack of heavy weight tenors needed to be Manrico?

Thinking of a Corelli, Bonisolli or a Martinucci. Today we seem to have Marcello Alvarez but he does not seem to have the dramatic oomph needed.

On cd I will stick with Bergonzi and on VHS I remember the Rosalind Plowright, Franco Bonisolli from the Arena Verona. Actually, probably my favourite recording is the one with Dario Volonte , a great light voiced Argentine tenor. I think his Leonora was Cedolins. A live recording but thrilling.


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## Barelytenor (Nov 19, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> That's INTERESTING! Zajick is doing Ulrica at the Met in the fall, in Ballo in Maschera, and if she was a good Azucena, she ought to be a pretty good Ulrica, I'm thinking.
> 
> And I shouldn't say this but there actually are two Wagner pieces I love, one either the Meistersinger overture or the Tannhauser overture (well, hell, they're interchangeable), by that Cuban pianist who was also a diplomat - Jorge something? aah, my mind is going ... but I'm not a complete Wagnerphobe, I just play one on TV ...


Jorge Bolet, and the Tannhauser overture, he does a superb job of playing so many notes with the proper translucent fluidity that the piece requires. The Campanella and Funerailles are wonderful as well. "Bolet Rediscovered," RCA Red Seal, 1973.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

Greg - This my favourite version which you should be able to pick up quite cheaply.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yashin said:


> Actually, probably my favourite recording is the one with Dario Volonte , a great light voiced Argentine tenor. I think his Leonora was Cedolins. A live recording but thrilling.


Funny how one performance, and not always the one you might expect, will "make" a recording for us. I'll keep my eye out for that one!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Barelytenor said:


> Jorge Bolet, and the Tannhauser overture, he does a superb job of playing so many notes with the proper translucent fluidity that the piece requires. The Campanella and Funerailles are wonderful as well. "Bolet Rediscovered," RCA Red Seal, 1973.


That's IT!! You're right. Gosh, that was a library recording, I had never owned it, now I'll have to look for it!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

sospiro said:


> Greg - This my favourite version which you should be able to pick up quite cheaply.


Thanks, Annie. I'll look for that.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

guythegreg said:


> Thanks, Annie. I'll look for that.


Just listened to it yesterday. Yes, it is lovely, Ricciarelli and Carreras sound wonderful together and Toczyka has some killer low notes.


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## sospiro (Apr 3, 2010)

mamascarlatti said:


> Just listened to it yesterday. Yes, it is lovely, Ricciarelli and Carreras sound wonderful together and Toczyka has some killer low notes.


I did end up with some lemons because of my obsession of 'I'll buy anything as long as Carreras is in it' but some are OK.


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## Lunasong (Mar 15, 2011)

I know this as one of the operas in the Marx Brothers' "A Night at the Opera" (the other is _Pagliacci_) and until now, that had been enough exposure for me.






This thread has convinced me to try it


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

I do think like all opera recordings it is down to personal taste. I always found the Domingo recordings strangely recorded if that makes any sense. Like the high notes have been messed with... Jose Carreras' voice i just never took too -i always see him and not the character. Pavarotti well, he has a decent stab at it but i think Manrico needs to be more spinto and heroic and Pavarotti is more romantic and tragic. Give me Giuseppe Giacomini, Franco Corelli or such any day.


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## dionisio (Jul 30, 2012)

Il trovatore, of all Verdi's works, is the one i listen less. 

I think it is the plot as everybody remarks. I know, as one always remember, that the music is worth, as any Verdian opera when it describes the human nature/feelings. Nevertheless, i simply dont care much about it, although the version i have has the great Carlo Berganzi.

When it comes with the "reality" of the plot, opera plots easily fly away, i know. But this one seemed always "crazier" than the others.

And btw, i dont know why, but one of my favourite parts is right in the beginning, where the tragic story is told to the soldiers. hehehe


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## Yashin (Jul 22, 2011)

Yes, Carlo Bergonzi or Franco Corelli singing "ah si ben mio".......thrilling. They sound like Princes and the other tenors like paupers!


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yashin said:


> I do think like all opera recordings it is down to personal taste. I always found the Domingo recordings strangely recorded if that makes any sense. Like the high notes have been messed with... Jose Carreras' voice i just never took too -i always see him and not the character. Pavarotti well, he has a decent stab at it but i think Manrico needs to be more spinto and heroic and Pavarotti is more romantic and tragic. Give me Giuseppe Giacomini, Franco Corelli or such any day.


A good point - everyone's ears are different, every singer makes a different impression on everybody.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

dionisio said:


> And btw, i dont know why, but one of my favourite parts is right in the beginning, where the tragic story is told to the soldiers. hehehe


I know what you mean - it's a good bit. We're listening to other people's secrets! And the music is good there too.

One of my favorite bits in the Callas/di Stefano/Gobbi Ballo in Maschera is when the servant comes and knocks on Ulrica's door - he only has one line, and there's no tune - it's the same note six or seven times in a row - but he sings it so beautifully, I always look forward to that moment with such anticipation! It's almost like this one singer with this one small small part takes his chance to upstage everybody else on the record!


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

It was my first opera ever, so it's special. You never forget your first.
I'm also in love with Count di Luna and his beautiful voice. (Leonora is an idiot.)
And it's so passionate and fiery. There are way more stupid librettos (Ernani? Lohengrin, anyone? Forza?). 
And I love sibling rivalry, it's one of my favourite themes. I would be really happy if the boys had a wild duet but if they were alone without Leonora they would not stop to sing before killing each other so it would never work.


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sieglinde said:


> It was my first opera ever, so it's special. You never forget your first.
> I'm also in love with Count di Luna and his beautiful voice. (Leonora is an idiot.)


How did I know sospiro would like this? hmm ... 



> There are way more stupid librettos (Ernani? Lohengrin, anyone? Forza?).


Hmm .. don't want to burst your bubble, but I wouldn't have called either Ernani or Forza WAY more stupid than Trovatore. They're not WAY less stupid ... but and not just for accidentally chucking the wrong kid in the fire, for sheer complexity and emotional bass-ackwardness as well - I mean, isn't the emotional highlight really the gypsy watching her mom go to the stake? THAT'S the end of the movie, however you rearrange the components. And to just recapture if I may the tail end of that hanging "but" I left up there ... but I think most people would say Trovatore takes the metaphorical cake in that sweepstakes.



> And I love sibling rivalry, it's one of my favourite themes. I would be really happy if the boys had a wild duet but if they were alone without Leonora they would not stop to sing before killing each other so it would never work.


Nothing to say here, I just really liked that ...


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and hoping next year's Bavarian State Opera performance with Kaufmann and Harteros is eventually released on video.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Trovatore is an opera that requires and showcases 4 of the best singers in the world. The plot is stupid but the music is amazing! I love the Sutherland, Pavarotti, and the Milanov, Warren versions. Callas did a version in her prime in the early 50's. The main arias but each principle are among the best arias ever written for each part. Musically there are no dead moments in Trovatore given great singers.


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

Yes, the plot is a bit daft...but frankly who cares?! I have 3 'Il Trovatore's' and my very favourite bit from all of them is Katia Ricciarelli singing this....(unfortunately the youtube track has some distortion to it)






in the Colin Davis recording with Jose Carreras, Yuri Masurok, Stefania Toczyska...all of which we went to see reproduce their parts so very well at the Royal Opera House. Katia sang this aria so well there, too. Whatever happened to her?....
The 'Azucena' of Stefania Toczyska stole the show though...she sang it with such passion and was as nutty as a fruit cake, throughout! No, seriously...she sang Great! 
Brigitte Fassbaender makes a good Azucena as well, I think...it surely is the pivotal role in the opera?


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## guythegreg (Jun 15, 2012)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Trovatore is an opera that requires and showcases 4 of the best singers in the world. The plot is stupid but the music is amazing! I love the Sutherland, Pavarotti, and the Milanov, Warren versions. Callas did a version in her prime in the early 50's. The main arias but each principle are among the best arias ever written for each part. Musically there are no dead moments in Trovatore given great singers.


That's funny ... just finished listening to Trovatore, by an odd coincidence! It says Bastianini on my CD player, but I've forgotten who else was with him. I have yet to hear the Sutherland version but I am really looking forward to it. And to think I never used to like the opera ... for me, I just had to hear the right version, and I was hooked.


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## MAuer (Feb 6, 2011)

JCarmel said:


> Yes, the plot is a bit daft...but frankly who cares?! I have 3 'Il Trovatore's' and my very favourite bit from all of them is Katia Ricciarelli singing this....(unfortunately the youtube track has some distortion to it)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have that recording, and prefer it a little to the other one I have with Leontyne Price, Placido Domingo, and Sherrill Milnes. Ricciarelli was one of my favorite sopranos, and you're right that she's sort of disappeared. I don't recall any kind of official "retirement" from the stage; it was as though one just quit hearing her or about her. I do vaguely remember reading something about her serving on a voice competition jury in recent years, but that's about all.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Bjoerling/Milanov/Barbieri/warren set with Cellini is probably considered one of the classic set where there is really no weakness.All the principal singers were captured at the peak of their career. Price/Domingo/Cossotto/Milnes with Mehta is also excellent but unfortunately suffered from horrible sound engineer and at highest/loudest passage, especially for Price, there are some distortion here and there. Of the modern set, Giulini set with Plowright, Domingo, Fasssbaender, Zancanaro is also excellent. I am never impressed much with Plowright in other recordings and DVDs but she sang the heck out of Leonore and rival just about anyone else. There are other sets that offered really good alternatives but I feel these 3 sets really have no significant weakness and all 4 principal singers are captured at their best.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

suteetat said:


> Bjoerling/Milanov/Barbieri/warren set with Cellini is probably considered one of the classic set where there is really no weakness.All the principal singers were captured at the peak of their career. Price/Domingo/Cossotto/Milnes with Mehta is also excellent but unfortunately suffered from horrible sound engineer and at highest/loudest passage, especially for Price, there are some distortion here and there. Of the modern set, Giulini set with Plowright, Domingo, Fasssbaender, Zancanaro is also excellent. I am never impressed much with Plowright in other recordings and DVDs but she sang the heck out of Leonore and rival just about anyone else. There are other sets that offered really good alternatives but I feel these 3 sets really have no significant weakness and all 4 principal singers are captured at their best.


 I agree with you about Plowright here. She rocked it....operatically. Sutherland was older but still marvelous and the shared high C with Pav was amazing. There were times on this recording where you could really hear that she was a dramatic soprano before she sang coloratura.


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## suteetat (Feb 25, 2013)

Seattleoperafan said:


> I agree with you about Plowright here. She rocked it....operatically. Sutherland was older but still marvelous and the shared high C with Pav was amazing. There were times on this recording where you could really hear that she was a dramatic soprano before she sang coloratura.


I have to give Sutherland/Pav/Bonygne another listen. May be I will get into trouble with this but personally, I found Sutherland rather boring in most of her recording with Bonygne .I blamed most of that on Bonygne actually as she can be very dramatic, given the right conductors like her Turandot with Mehta or Donna Anna with Giulini. With Bonygne, I just thought what a beautiful voice, amazing singer, yawn yawn....  except for her Rigoletto and Hoffman which I thought Bonynge was actually quite good. Pav did not have quite the right voice for Manrico either. For me, Domingo, Corelli, Bergonzi, Bjoerling would be the Manrico I go to usually.


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## tenorgeorge (Mar 14, 2013)

I hope you will accept my Di quella pira version!


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## JCarmel (Feb 3, 2013)

I have the Plowright/Giulini set and I'm quite a big Giulini Fan...But despite the set being given the Radio 3 'CD Review's' top choice, I've never really taken to it. I have enjoyed several excellent performances given by Rosalind...she once sang 'Casta Diva' as well as I've_ ever _heard it sung...including Callas...for the Farewell Concert at the ENO for the then retiring chairman, Earl of Harewood. But her Leonora on this set is just too slow/drawn-out...beautiful though the singing is in other respects. If I don't naturally sing-along, then I know (for me) there's something not-right with the performance...That's just my opinion, tho'!


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

i've always liked the Shippers set on EMI.
Corelli, Simionato,Merrill.
mho
for the complete score the Bonynge is pretty good.


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## lucasand (Jan 24, 2013)

I like the Giulini set a lot. Slow tempos, Zancanaro singing the best "Il balen" of all and no exhibition high C's, although Domingo is not the top choice for Manrico. And I looove the Fassbaender's Azucena.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I like Trovatore. Second Opera I ever saw too in '85. Azucena was sung by Elena Obraztsova. She was wonderful.But then she Is a personal fave. The rest of the cast were too! Willard White, Elizabeth Connell, Elizabeth Bainbridge, Wolfgang Brendel, José Carreras. I went back again on the last night. Lots of high jinks! I have the Mehta / Price /Mills/Domingo/Cossotto '69 set and the Callas/Di Stefano one. If you get the chance find a recording by Ebe Stignani. Her "Condotta, ell'era in ceppi" is marvelous.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Badinerie said:


> I like Trovatore. Second Opera I ever saw too in '85. Azucena was sung by Elena Obraztsova. She was wonderful.But then she Is a personal fave. The rest of the cast were too! Willard White, Elizabeth Connell, Elizabeth Bainbridge, Wolfgang Brendel, José Carreras. I went back again on the last night. Lots of high jinks! I have the Mehta / Price /Mills/Domingo/Cossotto '69 set and the Callas/Di Stefano one. If you get the chance find a recording by Ebe Stignani. Her "Condotta, ell'era in ceppi" is marvelous.


Was this at ROH? I think I saw that one too,


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

Yes.ROH. That was the one. I think it was presented as part of a Barclays Bank Prom series. I could only get a standing ticket for the last night. I gradually sneaked round as close as I could to the right of the stage. No one stopped me!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

guythegreg said:


> You think they just voted for it because it was familiar?
> 
> (yep, gotta got my headphones working!)


No,it's a good old tub thumper!


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

JCarmel said:


> Yes, the plot is a bit daft...but frankly who cares?! I have 3 'Il Trovatore's' and my very favourite bit from all of them is Katia Ricciarelli singing this....(unfortunately the youtube track has some distortion to it)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ms. Ricciarelli is in her 60's ,that's what happened to her.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

suteetat said:


> Bjoerling/Milanov/Barbieri/warren set with Cellini is probably considered one of the classic set where there is really no weakness.All the principal singers were captured at the peak of their career. Price/Domingo/Cossotto/Milnes with Mehta is also excellent but unfortunately suffered from horrible sound engineer and at highest/loudest passage, especially for Price, there are some distortion here and there. Of the modern set, Giulini set with Plowright, Domingo, Fasssbaender, Zancanaro is also excellent. I am never impressed much with Plowright in other recordings and DVDs but she sang the heck out of Leonore and rival just about anyone else. There are other sets that offered really good alternatives but I feel these 3 sets really have no significant weakness and all 4 principal singers are captured at their best.


The Milanov/Bjorling set is a great favourite of mine,but there are certainly weaknesses that include a number of cuts ,Cellini's conducting and Warren not being very dramatic at all.


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## Spock (Jun 8, 2013)

I recently saw this DVD and liked it, especially when the Count di Luna or Azucena sang and even the Count's right hand man was very very good in the opening number.

Several here have commented that they thought the plot was stupid. It wasn't to me. It was all about revenge and the irony at the end was pretty cool.


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## mamascarlatti (Sep 23, 2009)

Spock said:


> Several here have commented that they thought the plot was stupid. It wasn't to me. It was all about revenge and the irony at the end was pretty cool.


You are obviously born to love opera!:clap:


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## Spock (Jun 8, 2013)

mamascarlatti said:


> You are obviously born to love opera!:clap:


LOL! Better late than never, eh? (It seems like I have a lot of catching up to do. Carmen....maybe; Madame Butterfly..... sounds good; anything by Mozart....definitely; Wagner.....if I could forgive him for being such an anti-Semitic, surely......)


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

sospiro said:


> Greg - This my favourite version which you should be able to pick up quite cheaply.


They have a used copy of that one at my local music store. I chose Mehta over it, but I may pick up the Davis next time I stop over there.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Spock said:


> I recently saw this DVD and liked it, especially when the Count di Luna or Azucena sang and even the Count's right hand man was very very good in the opening number.
> 
> Several here have commented that they thought the plot was stupid. It wasn't to me. *It was all about revenge and the irony at the end was pretty cool.*
> 
> View attachment 19358


So presumably if the opera didn't end where it did, the next thing would have been that the Count has Azucena put to death. Wonder why she did not reveal who the kid was before it was too late. Maybe the Count would not have believed it then?

I just ordered that DVD for Hvorostovsky, and the other Hvorostovsky Trovatore DVD came in today's mail. I think he is going to be my favorite Count di Luna.

Does Hvorostovsky always play the bad guy?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

This looks interesting. Verdi's French adaptation of Il trovatore:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> This looks interesting. Verdi's French adaptation of Il trovatore:


I have a Macbeth in French, very strange.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Rogerx said:


> I have a Macbeth in French, very strange.


Maybe sounds better to French-speaking people. Although I am not all that keen on sung-in-English opera, but French should be a more music-friendly language than English is.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Does Hvorostovsky always play the bad guy?


but Luna is no bad guy.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Zhdanov said:


> but Luna is no bad guy.


Now let me see. Di Luna accepts sexual favours from the lover of the man he is about to have executed in exchange for that man's life. I don't see he's much different from Scarpia. Or is he a good guy too?


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

Fritz Kobus said:


> Maybe sounds better to French-speaking people. Although I am not all that keen on sung-in-English opera, but French should be a more music-friendly language than English is.


I have no problem with French opera in general, but such a well know work in French......


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

Rogerx said:


> I have no problem with French opera in general, but such a well know work in French......


But there is a Paris version, which Verdi prepared for the 1857 French première, and it differs from the usual score in a few places. Too many and too complicated to enumerate then all here, but Budden delineates all the textual changes in Volume 2 of _ The Operas of Verdi_. The major change of course was the inclusion of a ballet in Act III.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Tsaraslondon said:


> But there is a Paris version, which Verdi prepared for the 1857 French première, and it differs from the usual score in a few places. Too many and too complicated to enumerate then all here, but Budden delineates all the textual changes in Volume 2 of _ The Operas of Verdi_. *The major change of course was the inclusion of a ballet in Act III.*


That is the good part. I wonder if it would be too weird to pick up a copy of the ballet part (presumably a 99 cent Amazon download) and tuck it in at the appropriate location within the Italian version?



Rogerx said:


> I have no problem with French opera in general, but such a well know work in French......


This problem comes up in the reverse with La fille du Regiment. I have, but don't care for, the Italian version.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Fritz Kobus said:


> That is the good part. I wonder if it would be too weird to pick up a copy of the ballet part (presumably a 99 cent Amazon download) and tuck it in at the appropriate location within the Italian version?
> 
> This problem comes up in the reverse with La fille du Regiment. I have, but don't care for, the Italian version.


The Italian version has an aria for the tenor that isn't in the French version, however you can find it sung separately on recital discs. There is also a recording of the Trovatore ballet music in a double CD set of all Verdi's ballet music.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> The Italian version has an aria for the tenor that isn't in the French version, however you can find it sung separately on recital discs. There is also a recording of the Trovatore ballet music in a double CD set of all Verdi's ballet music.
> 
> N.


You mean in addition to _Ah si, ben mio_ and _Di quella pira_?


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Tsaraslondon said:


> You mean in addition to _Ah si, ben mio_ and _Di quella pira_?


Sorry, I realise now that it isn't clear that I meant the Italian version of _Fille_! La figlia del regimento.

N.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

The Conte said:


> Sorry, I realise now that it isn't clear that I meant the Italian version of _Fille_! La figlia del regimento.
> 
> N.


Ah, sorry. I misunderstood.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

They did put the ballet parts into the normal Italian version in last year's Verona production, and I was sitting there like what the hell. It was so unexpected. It didn't help that production looked like a parody of a Trovatore from 50 years ago. I like it traditional, but were the actual horses, bad cosplay armour and glittery costumes really necessary? And it was so crowded. Sure, they wanted it to look big and epic for such a huge stage but it was mostly funny. Azucena looked like a caricature of a Mezzo Witch(TM), mismatched random layers, way too much bling, messy grey wig, overacting, the whole deal.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Sieglinde said:


> They did put the ballet parts into the normal Italian version in last year's Verona production, and I was sitting there like what the hell. It was so unexpected. It didn't help that production looked like a parody of a Trovatore from 50 years ago. I like it traditional, but were the actual horses, bad cosplay armour and glittery costumes really necessary? And it was so crowded. Sure, they wanted it to look big and epic for such a huge stage but it was mostly funny. Azucena looked like a caricature of a Mezzo Witch(TM), mismatched random layers, way too much bling, messy grey wig, overacting, the whole deal.


That's the Verona style! I wonder if at some point they will up date their production style and go for something more sophisticated.

N.


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## Sieglinde (Oct 25, 2009)

Not that the Bregenz monstrosity was any better. What were they doing in that refinery thing? Why did di Luna smoke, has he never heard of safety regulations? Also, it was still mostly park and bark, team red vs team blue despite all the "modernity". 

Tbh I'm not that convinced Trovatore is right for open air. It's popular, but it's not made to be a spectacle with huge crowds like Aida or Turandot.


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