# before you make your mind up about modern music...



## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Scenario: 

Someone says to you, "You know, I don't know all that much about classical music, but I just don't think I like the twentieth century music. Why would you listen to that when you could listen to Vivaldi, Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Wagner, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak? I can't go past Mahler, Debussy, or Ravel. Maybe Strauss. After that, I just don't understand why people listen to it." 

You say, "Before you make up your mind about modern music, listen to... " 

Edit: Sorry this wasn't clear! If possible, would you please recommend specific recordings rather than just composers or even works. Thanks!


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

Takemitsu's guitar music springs to mind.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Ives and Ruggles; that ought to convince the 'someone' that he is right and I am nuts. That is what you have in mind, right?


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## niv (Apr 9, 2013)

Three words: 

Rite
Of
Spring


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Stravinsky, Messiaen, Lutosławski, Adams.

Best regards, Dr


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## Kieran (Aug 24, 2010)

I'd say, try Rachmaninov for brooding but accessibly beautiful music, and Mahler for something which will challenge your ideas of structure, while causing upheaval as it does. And don't be afraid of the challenge! I find a lot of modern music takes time - but so does a lot of old music too...


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## Kivimees (Feb 16, 2013)

Vaughan Williams...


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

Kivimees said:


> Vaughan Williams...


I'm not sure if he qualifies as modern... I'd put him in the pre-1945 stylistic period.

Best regards, Dr


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

Listen to as much as you can of 20th century music and you're sure to find something you like. Much better finding something you like than just taking a recommendation of what someone else likes. And the 20th century has too much variety to say there is one way into it anyway.

Why not just keep to the older stuff? Because variety is the spice of life, and standing still can make things stale.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

you should agree with them and then proceed to recommend them "this little known [this someone's preferred era] composer" who is in fact a 20th century composer  before they realize it, they will have listened to it and who knows from there on! Either they'll grow to love it or they won't ever bother you with this question again


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

I grew up on Rite of Spring (don't knock Fantasia, folks), which always sounded great to me, although I'll admit it took a little time to get away from the images of dinosaurs and volcanoes...


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Is the intent to demonstrate that there are 20th century composers/music that someone who appears to only enjoys earlier music might like or to show that person a path towards truly new music they might eventually appreciate? I assume the OP means the former so...

I might suggest:
Barber's Violin Concerto
Sibelius Symphony No. 7
Alwyn's Harp Concerto "Lyra Angelica"
Stravinsky's Concerto in E flat “Dumbarton Oaks”
Copland's Appalachian Spring
Korngold's Violin Concerto
Shostakovich's Piano Quintet
Vaughn Williams's Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis
Cage's In a Landscape

For contemporary artists:
Lowell Liebermann, Carl Vine, Michael Nyman

If the latter, we'd have to have a (very?) long talk about classical music touching on both the similarities and the differences of "new" music, being open to and enjoying truly different sounds and musical ideas, the potential difficulties in "learning" to appreciate these new sounds, etc.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

science said:


> Scenario:
> 
> Someone says to you, "You know, I don't know all that much about classical music, but I just don't think I like the twentieth century music. Why would you listen to that when you could listen to Vivaldi, Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Wagner, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak? I can't go past Mahler, Debussy, or Ravel. Maybe Strauss. After that, I just don't understand why people listen to it."
> 
> You say, "Before you make up your mind about modern music, listen to... "


...listen to the nonsense coming out of your mouth! If you can enjoy composers of two very different kinds of music like Handel and Wagner then you are more than capable of enjoying twentieth century music, so stop being a pathetic little loser and make some effort!


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## Feathers (Feb 18, 2013)

Berg's Violin Concerto and a lot of Shostakovich! They are enjoyable even for people who don't listen to 20th century music much.


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

"...reason."

Alternatively: "...THIS!" And then I would punch them.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

If possible, could you please recommend specific recordings rather than just composers or even works. Thanks!


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## Feathers (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, if they enjoy such a wide variety of music before the twentieth century and suddenly "can't go past" early 20th century as if there's some invisible yet solid line blocking them, then I can't help but think that their view is a result of the attitude they have fixed into their own minds, not a result of any specific composers/works, musical traits, or reasons for dislike. The only way to change their attitude is, well, to change their attitude. 

I think this scenario is an interesting topic but may be unlikely in real life. Most people can find at least a few things they like from a certain era, especially in such a diverse era as the 20th century and especially if they already enjoy such a variety of music from the earlier past.

(Sorry, I guess I didn't really answer the actual thread question...)


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Listen to Pierre Boulez's second piano sonata, first movement, "Extrêmement rapide": 




And then, Boulez's Structures, premier livre, chapitre Ia.

Once you can hum from memory these pieces, come back for more recommendations.


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## DrKilroy (Sep 29, 2012)

science said:


> If possible, could you please recommend specific recordings rather than just composers or even works. Thanks!


All right...

Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring, Dumbarton Oaks, Ebony Concerto
Messiaen - La Nativite du Seigneur, Turangalila-Symphonie, Oiseaux exotiques
Lutosławski - Bucolics, Mi-parti, Symphony no. 1
Adams - The Chairman Dances, Harmonielehre, Fearful Symmetries.

Best regards, Dr


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

"Before you make your mind up about modern music, listen to..."

1. Fingernails on a blackboard
2. Random sounds of traffic, horns beeping
3. A 10 horsepower lawnmower running without oil
4. A cat walking across a piano
5. The Hispanic guy across the street running a leaf-blower
6. A flock of angry geese
7. A frightened pit bull being captured by Animal Control
8. A 95 year-old man clearing the phlegm out of his throat at 5 A.M.
9. A knife mistakenly put into a garbage disposal
10. Flatulence produced by a 50 year-old man who consumed undercooked lentil soup

Have I missed any metaphors? :lol:


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

'Make up your mind' suggests someone listens to something, likes or dislikes it and then never gives it a chance again. I'm not sure it's necessarily like that. Sometimes you have to go back to something later to see whether your developed musical mind can find something new in music you previously hadn't liked.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2013)

I'd tell them to stay away from the "second Viennese school" and their ilk for now and get some Heitor Villa-Lobos:









There's something for everyone in 20th century classical.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

'Ilk'??!! :scold:


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Kieran said:


> I'd say, try Rachmaninov for brooding but accessibly beautiful music, and Mahler for something which will challenge your ideas of structure, while causing upheaval as it does. And don't be afraid of the challenge! I find a lot of modern music takes time - but so does a lot of old music too...


I never thought of them as modern music really.


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

ahammel said:


> 'Ilk'??!! :scold:


Look it up!


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

millionrainbows said:


> 4. A cat walking across a piano


Still sounds better than hitting the piano with arms and elbows.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

ahammel said:


> 'Ilk'??!! :scold:


Yeah, you know, those "Second Viennese School"-type people with their strange music, business suits, and bald pates.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

DeepR said:


> Still sounds better than hitting the piano with arms and elbows.


Oh, you must be referring to that ex-con Henry Cowell. How about:

4. A _flatulent_ cat walking across a piano to escape Animal Control, after being startled by a 10 horsepower vacuum cleaner picking up large sewing needles?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

OK, some proper suggestions this time. Some of the first modern works I heard and really liked were:

Glass: Akhnaten
Ligeti: Chamber concerto; Lux aeterna
Schnittke: Concerto grosso no.1


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

How about this piece Variations II (1961) by John Cage, performed here by David Tudor?


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

DrKilroy said:


> I'm not sure if he qualifies as modern... I'd put him in the pre-1945 stylistic period.
> 
> Best regards, Dr


Uh, that's 'modern' From Debussy, etc. onward, 1890 - 1975, after that, 'contemporary' is the buzzword of the month, at least as per the folk at the Grove's 'bible' institute


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

To be successful, you have to learn of the person's tastes more specifically, and tailor a choice from modern repertoire based on that.

Some people have very open ears, and can be introduced to anything.

The statement you fabricated / replicated shows a resistance to both later harmonic procedure, and I'm thinking more and more format has a lot to do with the resistance as well.

But if someone has not gone to another floor and other galleries of the building, finding out their readiest 'next step' which will not make them uncomfortable is critical to any chance of success.

Ergo, one at a time, knowing their tastes pretty well. No simple blanket approach will work.

(Though Ravel is usually a very safe bet


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

Something very accessible? Virgil Thomson's "The Plow That Broke The Plains"
Something a little more interesting, perhaps a gateway composition? "Le Sacre Du Printemps"


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## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm not sure if The Rite would be ideal for someone with that mindset. It is a very famous piece of music, so I'd imagine they would already be aware of it. Heck, in their minds it may be exactly the kind of thing they object to.

Our local orchestra did The Rite a couple of years ago, programmed after the intermission. I'd estimate that only around half the audience remained for the second half of the performance.


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## MagneticGhost (Apr 7, 2013)

Gorecki, Part, Panufnik, Tavener. All of these composers have composed very accessible works in the last 50 odd years.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

John Cage - "Six Melodies" (1950): 




György Ligeti - Piano etudes, "L'escalier du diable" (1994), "White on White" (1995): 



, 




Toru Takemitsu - "Toward the sea" (1981):


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

MagneticGhost said:


> Gorecki, Part, Panufnik, Tavener. All of these composers have composed very accessible works in the last 50 odd years.


Those last three guys are not necessarily accessible. Much of their work can be perceived as 'too static'. The standard reaction is "What the 'eff'! nothing going on here."


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I'll also throw in Frederico Mompou's Musica Callada, played by Herbert Henck. 

I think Philip Glass' Glassworks would also engage someone unfamiliar with modern music.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

I've often thought about a "music deprivation" camp, where the person would be taken prisoner and deprived of _all _music for 10 years. When they are released, _any_ music they hear will sound good, even modern music. However, they will still be on probation, so if the modern music does _not_ sound good to them, they will go right back to incarceration.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

While the premise of this thread may be slightly extreme, I think there are many people who fall into roughly the same category (i.e. they enjoy much pre-20th century music and very little post 20th century music). In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of classical music listeners appreciate very few modern works. Some of these listeners may never be open to discovering modern music, but others could under the right conditions. The question becomes, "What are those conditions?"

For most TC members modern music is not an issue so this situation does not apply to them. In fact when I look at many of the responses, I'm struck with how few of the suggestions I enjoyed when I was still new to 20th century music. I was once in a moderately similar place - I did not like the majority of Debussy or Ravel, nothing of Stravinsky (including Rite of Spring), Berg's violin concerto was awful, pretty much nothing of Shostakovich. Messiaen, Lutosławski, Ligeti, Schnittke, and Takemitsu were hopeless. Honestly, I would have been shocked that someone would have thought that I might enjoy those composers.

Things have changed with me (I like some or much of all the composers listed above), but it took more than listening a few times to some "new" music. Probably the hardest thing is to convince someone in that position that Debussy, Prokofiev, or Stravinsky _can_ be enjoyed just as Brahms, Schubert, or Haydn can. Some here mentioned attitude, and that is critical. The easiest way to turn them off is to suggest that their attitude is irrational, they should work harder, their view is stupid, they're too conservative, etc. Many will not see the light, but if you can convince some that there may be great rewards to opening their musical "palette", that would be a worthy accomplishment.

@science:
How about:
Barber Violin Concerto - Joshua Bell and Baltimore Symphony
Korngold Violin Concerto - Itzhak Perlman and Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra
Vaughn Williams's Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis - Neville Marriner and Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields
Copland's Appalachian Spring - Michael Tilson Thomas and the SFO


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

mmsbls said:


> ...Probably the hardest thing is to convince someone in that position that Debussy, Prokofiev, or Stravinsky _can_ be enjoyed just as Brahms, Schubert, or Haydn can. Some here mentioned attitude, and that is critical. The easiest way to turn them off is to suggest that their attitude is irrational, they should work harder, their view is stupid, they're too conservative, etc. Many will not see the light, but if you can convince some that there may be great rewards to opening their musical "palette", that would be a worthy accomplishment.


When these sorts of potential conflicts pop up, I just use it as a way to indulge in some humor. Beyond that, I still have my "bad ear" theory, which transcends mere attitude and hinges on intrinsic hereditary traits.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

millionrainbows said:


> However, they will still be on probation, so if the modern music does _not_ sound good to them, they will go right back to incarceration.


you will have to electronically monitor their brainwaves, to make sure they're not lying when they say it sounds good, as the brightest might have caught on to the trick.


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

SuperTonic said:


> I'm not sure if The Rite would be ideal for someone with that mindset. It is a very famous piece of music, so I'd imagine they would already be aware of it. Heck, in their minds it may be exactly the kind of thing they object to.
> 
> Our local orchestra did The Rite a couple of years ago, programmed after the intermission. I'd estimate that only around half the audience remained for the second half of the performance.


You're right, I didn't think that through. Maybe one of Part's more accessible works.


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

I've found both Gorecki and Arvo Part to be relatively easy to get in to. They don't have too much of that super-strange stuff like helicopters and saran wrap in their music.


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## deggial (Jan 20, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> I've found both Gorecki and Arvo Part to be relatively easy to get in to. They don't have too much of that super-strange stuff like helicopters and saran wrap in their music.


I thought the helicopter was one of the best ideas out there but I find Part annoying as hell...


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

science said:


> If possible, could you please recommend specific recordings rather than just composers or even works. Thanks!


What? You think we actually collect this modern garbage? We just say we like it to appear cool.

However, here are some in gradually increasing levels of inaccessibility:

Lowell Libermann - Concerto for flute and orchestra [Andrew Litton / Dallas Symphony Orchestra (2000) Delos]





Eric Ewazen - Chamber Symphony [Paul Polivnick / Czech Philharmonic Chamber Orchestra (2002), Albany TR477]





Henri Dutilleaux - Symphony No. 1 [Daniel Barenboim / Orchestre de Paris (1990) Elatus]


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> I grew up on Rite of Spring (don't knock Fantasia, folks), which always sounded great to me, although I'll admit it took a little time to get away from the images of dinosaurs and volcanoes...


Agreed about Fantasia. But do you know how irked I was to learn that the Tyrannosaurus came on the scene 83 million years after the Stegosaurus became extinct? It totally changed my perspective of the fighting scene in Fantasia. The lies....


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## hello (Apr 5, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> I've found both Gorecki and Arvo Part to be relatively easy to get in to. They don't have too much of that super-strange stuff like helicopters and saran wrap in their music.


Hold up, who uses saran wrap?


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

science said:


> Scenario:
> 
> Someone says to you, "You know, I don't know all that much about classical music, but I just don't think I like the twentieth century music. Why would you listen to that when you could listen to Vivaldi, Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Wagner, Liszt, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak? I can't go past Mahler, Debussy, or Ravel. Maybe Strauss. After that, I just don't understand why people listen to it."
> 
> ...


I think I would ask the person specifically what they like, or what they like most, from pre-20th century music & then make some recommendations.

For example:

If a person likes Baroque and Classical Era, I'd recommend some Neo-Classical type music. Stravinsky's got heaps of these (Eg. Octet for Winds, Violin Concerto, Oedipus Rex being three). Others that I like which come to mind are Martinu's Sinfonietta La Jolla, Villa-Lobos' Bachianas Brasileiras, Schoenberg's Serenade and Suite, Hovhaness' symphonies (eg. Mysterious Mountain has that amazing double fugue, which clearly pays homage to the Baroque), or for something more experimental eg. Schnittke's Concerti Grossi.

If a person likes Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, R. Strauss (the big Austro-Germanic 'Romantic' types) I'd recommend things like Schoenberg's Transfigured Night, Bartok's String Quartets, Stravinsky's Symphony in C, Zemlinsky's Lyric Symphony.

If a person likes more melodic and tuneful music of the past (eg. Mozart, Schubert, Bizet, Tchaikovsky), I'd recommend stuff like Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue or Concerto in F, Barber's Violin Concerto, Bernstein's West Side Story or suite from On The Waterfront, Copland's Billy the Kid.

If a person likes tone poems, or music that comes across as suggestive of images (eg. Liszt, Bruckner, Smetana, Dvorak) I'd say go for things like Sibelius' Tapiola, Sculthorpe's Sun Music I-IV or The Fifth Continent, Villa-Lobos' Momoprecoce, Vaughan Williams' Fantasia on a Theme of Thomas Tallis or A London Symphony, Holst's The Planets.

If a person likes Ravel and Debussy, things like Messiaen's 8 Preludes for piano or Le Merle Noir (The Blackbird, for flute and piano) may be appropriate, and of course extending to his more mature works (or others like Dutilleux's Cello Concerto) if the person is more adventurous. Another work that's little known that goes back to that is Australian composer Richard Meale's Incredible Floridas, a chamber piece that draws influenced from Messiaen and Satie, going back to Debussy and Ravel. Another avenue forward from Debussy's & Ravel's piano works are other innovators of piano early in the century (eg. Percy Grainger - try his 'In a Nutshell' suite, a bit like Debussy but more kind of full on, also Godowsky - I love his Java Suite - or Ives' crazy Three Page Sonata or his two piano sonatas).

Finally, to extend a person who's into Mahler, why not go down the path of those he influenced such as Berg (Violin Concerto or Wozzeck), Britten (Variations on a Theme of Frank Bridge or Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings) or Shostakovich (Symphony #10).

These are just some I can think of but the best thing that's worked for me is to invite someone to a concert of music like this. Or tell them about groups that play such music. For me, live music has always helped me connect with music, including new/newer musics.


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## Aecio (Jul 27, 2012)

What about the Rothko Chapel by Feldman ? You can also try some "easy" Ligeti such as Lux aeterna or atmospheres. 
All these pieces sound very different from the pre-1945 music and are quite easy to "decipher" on just two or three hearings


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## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

PetrB said:


> Uh, that's 'modern' From Debussy, etc. onward, 1890 - 1975, after that, 'contemporary' is the buzzword of the month, at least as per the folk at the Grove's 'bible' institute


This means that I've liked modern music all these years---it's contemporary racket that I can't stand. Well I just don't know!


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