# Perahia vs Arrau



## RogerWaters

In my quest to understand piano playing in my own, intuitive, way, what (may I ask) are the dimensions upon which the playing styles of the aforementioned differ?

Arrau is my goto for Beethoven, Perahia is my generalist - I like him in nearly everything I like, 
particularly: bach (when in piano-rome), schubert (perhaps not the late sonatas so much), chopin, brahms, schumann, mozart (that glorious concerto cycle), beethoven (that glorious concerto cycle!).

:tiphat:


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## Mandryka

let me say a couple of things about Perahia which helped me understand him better.

First, when he started out as a professional concert pianist, he was a hippy -- here, you'll see









He then rapidly, very rapidly, he morphed into a young fogey, who presented himself like this









and I propose that this difference manifests itself in style. At first, in Davidsbundlertanze for example, he was free spirited and imaginative and unbuttoned. But then, he became _magisterial_.

And second, don't forget that in the middle of his career he had a problem with one of his fingers which stopped him playing for a very long time.

I feel that in many of his subsequent recordings, he plays as though he's frightened of hurting his hands.


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## Mandryka

Arrau is a much more complicated musician to describe because his career was long and he changes in subtle and important ways. Contrast the first movement of K 576 in 1938






with the same music in 1983






I think you see an evolution away from a concern with presenting the broad architecture in an agreeable virtuoso way, to an interest in detail and textural counterpoint. The emphasis in the later recording is less on technique, more on a sort of uncompromising struggle to express the hidden emotional possibilities of the music.


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## Josquin13

In concert, Perahia has a smaller sound at the piano than Arrau did. He must struggle to be heard above an orchestra, so he tends to strike the keys harder in a large concert hall (as I've witnessed in his performances of Beethoven Piano Concertos, for example). Even in solo recitals, I've noticed that Perahia struggles a bit to adequately project (in certain music). However, Perahia has no such problems in the recording studio (or in small concert halls), where he can be closely miked, thus making his smaller sound & need for greater projection less relevant.

Therefore, I tend to see Perahia as a pianist that records exceptionally well, and whose pianism is well suited to music that requires lithe, delicate fingerings and an astute delineation of counterpoint--such as Mozart, Bach, & Handel (and Schumann)--rather than size, projection, bravura, and a richness of piano timbre. (Interestingly, Perahia has also spent time playing the harpsichord, trying to more deeply understand Bach and Handel's music on that instrument. Which is something that I've never heard Arrau was interested in.) Yet, most curiously, Perahia's Schumann is quite interesting, too, on this account, which likely has something to do with Schumann's great love of Bach's music, and the strong influence that it had over his solo piano works.

In comparison, Claudio Arrau had a more beautiful touch, and far richer piano tone, and certainly a more resonant one. Arrau had no trouble projecting in concertos or solo recitals in large halls. There was never any need for him to strike the piano keys heavily. In fact, Arrau consistently gave the impression that he had more technical reserves than he actually needed, which was an integral part of his boyhood training in Berlin with his teacher Martin Krause, who was Franz Liszt's favorite last pupil. Not surprisingly, Arrau's piano timbre worked beautifully in the solo piano music of Liszt and Debussy, who are composers that Perahia's pianism isn't all that well suited for, IMO. Although I wouldn't be surprised to see Perahia one day record the piano music of Faure.

Both pianists excel in Schumann's piano music, especially the Symphonic Etudes and Davidsbündlertanze. For me, those are among the finest recordings that Perahia has made to date. While Arrau once told Joseph Horowitz that his Davidsbündlertanze on Philips was the recording that he was most proud of in his career, and thought he'd gotten just right.

Arrau had a direct lineage back to Liszt--via Krause, and therefore Czerny and Beethoven, and likely Mozart (as I personally believe that Beethoven studied briefly with Mozart), while Perahia studied with the Polish pianist Mieczyslaw Horszowski, whose mother & 1st teacher had been a pupil of Karol Mikuli, who was one of Chopin's pupils and his teaching assistant. (Chopin reportedly played quite softly & delicately, and didn't project loudly at the piano.) Horszowski was highly regarded for his Chopin playing, and I wish he had recorded more of it. He was also well regarded for his Mozart, too. His primary teacher, Theodor Leschetizky (born in 1830!), once commented that "Mozart is in Horszowski's soul". Early in life, Horszowski performed Mozart's music with an orchestra conducted by Mozart's youngest son, Franz Xaver! In interviews, Perahia has expressed great admiration for his teacher's Mozart's playing, and I think it has strongly influenced his own Mozart. Horszowski was also exceptional in Schumann & Schubert, and Bach. Not surprisingly, these are all composers that Perahia plays well, too. In addition, I'd be remiss not to mention that Leschetizky was a student of Carl Czerny's, so there is a real Beethoven connection in Horszowski and therefore Perahia's musical lineage, as well.

Though I've not heard everything the two pianists have recorded, here are the performances that I've most treasured by Perahia & Arrau:

Perahia:

https://www.amazon.com/Murray-Perah...a+schumann+sony&qid=1560792888&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Schubert-Sch...a+schumann+sony&qid=1560792888&s=music&sr=1-5
https://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Piano...estra+of+europe&qid=1560795989&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Murray-Perah...ay+perahia+bach&qid=1560792948&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Murray-Perah...+perahia+mozart&qid=1560792981&s=music&sr=1-1
Prior to his digital Mozart PC recordings, there was an early LP box set of Perahia's first analog recordings of 6 Mozart PCs, which remains one of the best things he's ever done, IMO. It included his K. 466, and 1st K. 595, for instance. 
https://www.amazon.com/Murray-Perah...+perahia+handel&qid=1560793009&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Mendelssohn-...hia+mendelssohn&qid=1560796061&s=music&sr=1-1

Arrau:

https://www.amazon.com/Liszt-Works-...dio+arrau+liszt&qid=1560793062&s=music&sr=1-4
https://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Noctu...hopin+nocturnes&qid=1560793104&s=music&sr=1-3
https://www.amazon.com/Chopin-Etude...u+chopin+etudes&qid=1560793161&s=music&sr=1-2
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pi...piano+concertos&qid=1560793380&s=music&sr=1-7
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Cl...iano+concertos&qid=1560793380&s=music&sr=1-10
https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Pi...piano+concertos&qid=1560793380&s=music&sr=1-4
https://www.amazon.com/ベートーヴェン-ピアノ協...ano+concerto+4&qid=1560793524&s=music&sr=1-13
https://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Work...o+arrau+debussy&qid=1560793578&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/ICON-Claudio...=arrau+schumann&qid=1560795472&s=music&sr=1-9
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Conce...+brahms+haitink&qid=1560795560&s=music&sr=1-1
https://www.amazon.com/Claudio-Arra...+heritage&qid=1560795613&s=music&sr=1-1-fkmr2


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## flamencosketches

^Thanks for that. That Perahia plays Schumann set looks excellent. These are two pianists I have been looking to explore further, especially Arrau, whose Schumann Carnaval, Kinderszenen, and Waldszenen have been blowing my mind lately. Perahia I like, but haven't heard a recording of his that really kicked me in the gut like Arrau tends to.


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## Mandryka

For successful recordings by Perahia, try Davidsbundlertanze, Chopin op 58 sonata (maybe, I’m not sure about this), Mozart PC 14, Chopin preludes.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> recording of his that really kicked me in the gut like Arrau tends to.


His studio Schumann is often constipated. To hear him play Schumann well, you need to hear these







.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> His studio Schumann is often constipated. To hear him play Schumann well, you need to hear these
> 
> View attachment 120315
> .
> View attachment 120316


Not easy to find, but I'll keep my eyes open.


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## Guest

I have tons of Schumann piano solo but all I have by Arrau is Op 20 Humoresque, and nothing by Perahia. The version of Humoresque by Arrau is good, but no better than the other versions I have by Horowitz and Ashkenazy.

I suspect that Perahia's Schumann would be good, as he's among my favourite pianists, but I can't believe that I've missed out on anything all that significant by concentrating more on many other pianists for Schumann. 

I've not actually attended many concerts where Schumann's piano work was played. There was a concert a very long time ago with Alfred Brendel but I can't recall the details, except that Brendel's playing was, as usual, superb. I also recall a concert some 10 years ago by Peter Katin who played through Kinderszenen, as well as works by Chopin and Debussy. I thought that he was very good all-round pianist, and following that concert I acquired more of Katin's many recordings of various composers.


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## RogerWaters

Would people say Perahia is closer towards the Barenboim-Arrau side of things, or alternatively the kempff-brendel-lewis school?


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## Dan Ante

RogerWaters said:


> Arrau is my goto for Beethoven, Perahia is my generalist - I like him in nearly everything I like,
> particularly: bach (when in piano-rome), schubert (perhaps not the late sonatas so much), chopin, brahms, schumann, mozart (that glorious concerto cycle), beethoven (that glorious concerto cycle!).


Perahia got into Bach when he injured his Thumb he found it was an excellent way to exercise the poor old thumb.


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## flamencosketches

RogerWaters said:


> Would people say Perahia is closer towards the Barenboim-Arrau side of things, or alternatively the kempff-brendel-lewis school?


Perahia and Brendel are birds of a feather, I think, but I haven't heard much of his earlier "hippy period" work. So I guess I'm referring to "post-injury" Perahia when I say that.

I like your process of understanding the world of great pianists. It reminds me of my own quest toward that goal.


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## Mandryka

Partita said:


> I suspect that Perahia's Schumann would be good, as he's among my favourite pianists, but I can't believe that I've missed out on anything all that significant by concentrating more on many other pianists for Schumann.
> 
> .


You have, here


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## Mandryka

RogerWaters said:


> Would people say Perahia is closer towards the Barenboim-Arrau side of things, or alternatively the kempff-brendel-lewis school?


One of Perahia's major inspirations is Cortot.


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> Not easy to find, but I'll keep my eyes open.


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## Mandryka

The label Classic Archives recorded him playing the Appassionata in 1970, I like it maybe more than any other Appassionata, because of the tragic feeling. It may be this, I'm not totally sure






There's also an op 111 from 1977 in Brescia which Music and Arts recorded and released with a K 310, I haven't looked to see it it's on youtube.


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## RogerWaters

Mandryka said:


> One of Perahia's major inspirations is Cortot.


Ah another thread. Where does Cortot fit, stylistically, in the mix?


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## Judith

Was listening to Perahia yesterday performing Mozart Piano Concerto 24 with English Chamber Orchestra. Was superb but so are a lot of his performances. Not familiar with Arrau so can't comment


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## Mandryka

RogerWaters said:


> Ah another thread. Where does Cortot fit, stylistically, in the mix?


Well, there's a recording which the hippy Perahia made which I love of the Chopin Preludes, it may be worth you exploring this and Cortot's recordings of the same music to arrive at an answer. And Cortot recorded davidsbundlertanze a couple of times too.









When Philips produced their series Great Pianists of the Twentieth Century, Perahia acted as advisor on the Cortot volume. Initially they included a recorded of Davidsbundlertanze which hadn't been released, made by Cortot in the 1950s, with excellent sound, but some finger slips. Perahia objected vehemently and had the issued copies withdrawn, and subsequent copies were issued with Cortot's early recording. Perahia argued that the late performance presented the maestro in a bad light. I think he made an error of judgement.









Notice the images of Perahia and Cortot there.


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## Mandryka

Judith said:


> Was listening to Perahia yesterday performing Mozart Piano Concerto 24 with English Chamber Orchestra. Was superb but so are a lot of his performances. Not familiar with Arrau so can't comment


I listened to the first movement of that a few months ago and made these notes



> Listening to the first movement from this recording from Perahia today the thing that interested me most was the piano touch, I don't really know how to say it better than to compare the piano to strings of pearls -- the sound is shiny like a pearl and the tones are quite encapsulated -- a portato which I think is quite special. The piano part gives the whole thing the feeling of quality and elegance, gentility, like expensive china from Dresden one could say. And I think that's an unusual effect given the rather big gestures of the orchestra. I also like the orchestral part, I wish that Perahia had conducted more, he kind of missed his real strength maybe. But anyway, it somehow feels slightly incoherent, this ladylike piano style and rugbyman like orchestra, But it is certainly an interesting idea, to put the two together like this and I think I shall keep it.


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## Mandryka

This may be of interest to people interested in the way this thread is going


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> The label Classic Archives recorded him playing the Appassionata in 1970, I like it maybe more than any other Appassionata, because of the tragic feeling. It may be this, I'm not totally sure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's also an op 111 from 1977 in Brescia which Music and Arts recorded and released with a K 310, I haven't looked to see it it's on youtube.


Funny, I listened to that this morning on the drive to work.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> You have, here
> 
> View attachment 120322


I got this on vinyl at a shop in Ann Arbor with a badass classical section, but I somehow lost it on the trip home -_-


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## Mandryka

flamencosketches said:


> I got this on vinyl at a shop in Ann Arbor with a badass classical section, but I somehow lost it on the trip home -_-


I'm not sure how interesting it really is, in fact. The sound is good but he doesn't really play anything properly, they're classes not performances. The thing I remember most is some Mozart -- K475.

But it certainly is good to hear him recorded well because you can use your imagination when you listen to his older recordings, imagine the sounds he was making.


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## flamencosketches

I may have quoted the wrong post but I was talking about that Perahia Schumann LP on Columbia from the previous page. I've never seen that Cortot Masterclass disc but it sounds fascinating. Definitely have to say my interest is piqued. Even though I've never heard Cortot play Bach or Mozart.


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## Josquin13

Sorry, but I need to make a correction to my previous post--as I misremembered a story that I recounted there, & am now unfortunately unable to edit. In the post, I wrote that Perahia's teacher, Mieczyslaw Horszowski performed a concerto with an orchestra conducted by Mozart's son, Franz Xaver. That is incorrect. It was actually Horszowski's teacher, Theodor Leschetizky that played a concerto with an orchestra conducted by Mozart's youngest son, Franz Xaver, when Leschetizky was a 9 year-old piano prodigy (in 1839). Nor was the concerto by W.A. Mozart, as I again misrecalled, but by Carl Czerny, and it later led to Leschetizky studying the piano with Czerny (who had been Beethoven's student, and Liszt's teacher). Sorry for the mistake.


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## AeolianStrains

Josquin13 said:


> and therefore Czerny and Beethoven


As does Perahia, as Leschetizky (Horszowski's teacher) studied under Czerny.

Edit: Oops, didn't see the second page before commenting. Looks like you already covered that.


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## Mandryka

These chains of teachers - studied with X who . . . . who studied with Machaut - are they just inconsequential biographical factoids or do they matter for our understanding of the musician’s work?


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## joen_cph

Of course it can be relevant as regards questions of authenticity in the composer's preferred playing style and aesthetics, such as in the case Von Sauer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_von_Sauer,

but I personally like a broader range of creativity in pianistic interpretation.

As regards Arrau, he's not on my absolute top list, but I'd mention the Chopin Nocturnes/Philips and the Weber Konzertstück/Defauw as two of his most immediately interesting recordings. The Weber piece illustrating his early, most passionate approach, and the Chopin pieces as a prime example of his later, slower, sometimes even hieratic style.


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## flamencosketches

Mandryka said:


> These chains of teachers - studied with X who . . . . who studied with Machaut - are they just inconsequential biographical factoids or do they matter for our understanding of the musician's work?


I'm not sure, but my teacher's teacher's teacher studied with Artur Schnabel


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## Dan Ante

My teacher whose name was Sue has a cousin who was related to the man that knew of Brian Bates who played trumpet for the the Sherborne P.O in the 50s the director at the time was Inkle van Platterkopf who was responsible for developing a way of playing tacit in complete silence.


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## Vahe Sahakian

Both are my favorite pianists.
For Perahia my best loved performance is his Schumann Fantasie op17, particularly the last movement.
For Arrau my vote goes to his performance of Liszt Sonata.


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## Gallus

Mandryka said:


> These chains of teachers - studied with X who . . . . who studied with Machaut - are they just inconsequential biographical factoids or do they matter for our understanding of the musician's work?


Beethoven studied under Christian Gottlob Neefe, whose mentor was Johann Adam Hiller, who learned the organ with Gottfried August Homilius, who was taught by Johann Sebastian Bach! Talk about six degrees of separation...


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## staxomega

I am curious what people thought of Perahia's DG recording of the Hammerklavier. I have listened to it many times as Jed Distler has said it is one of the best. For me it lacks the real pathos/sorrow of Lucchesini in the Adagio which I agree with Kempff is how that movement should be interpreted. 

Here is Perahia giving a masterclass on the Hammerklavier. Quite enjoyable.


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## Rogerx

staxomega said:


> I am curious what people thought of Perahia's DG recording of the Hammerklavier. I have listened to it many times as Jed Distler has said it is one of the best. For me it lacks the real pathos/sorrow of Lucchesini in the Adagio which I agree with Kempff is how that movement should be interpreted.
> 
> Here is Perahia giving a masterclass on the Hammerklavier. Quite enjoyable.


I completely agree with you, I think after a couple of times listening i got bored. Never had that before with other pianist .


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