# Topics in classical music that have the greatest emotional response



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

So, what are those topics that provoke the greatest emotional response to those people who listen to classical? Those topics that starts flame wars and name calling on TC. Why do people get so worked up on these? 

_Wagner's antisemitism?

Bach's position as the "god" of classical music?

Beethoven vs. Mozart?

Modern music as noise and balderdash

Mozart as trash and boring_


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

John Cage... you know why.


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Reminds me of these:


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Trout said:


> John Cage... you know why.


huh???????????


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

"You have to be _soulless_ not to be touched by this work!"


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## Turangalîla (Jan 29, 2012)

Yes, the Second Viennese School gets people very worked up-you worship them or loathe them.

And people can get _very_ annoyed when you trash their composers and say that your favourites are better...eg. Messiaen *cough*


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## MaestroViolinist (May 22, 2012)

None of the above mentioned. The only time I really joined in an argument was that one about female composers, that really annoyed me.


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## Conor71 (Feb 19, 2009)

Some Audiophile threads can get heated - I guess some people have invested a lot of time and money into their sound systems


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I think we've got a pretty good list here! 

There was once a lot of heat about minimalism, but I suppose that could fit into the "modern music is noise" category.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

*Trashing a composer when you clearly have little knowledge of their work.* This can work both ways; if you target one of the big three you'll have a major furore on your hands (although this is true whether you've got loads of knowledge or none at all), or you could target a less well known composer, usually from the 20th century, and one person will adamantly defend them and be called an idiot for doing so because the rest of the forum is as clueless about their work as you are (though there will be some who will enquire about said composer honestly). Either way, your ignorance is going to cause someone a big headache.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

How about the straightforward comment:

Mozart's music is too simplistic so he's not as good as Beethoven and certainly vastly inferior to Bach (i.e. God), but he's much better than that Jew hater, Wagner, or any of that modern *atonal* garbage, boringly trivial minimalism, or especially that pretentious Cage and his worthless 4'33".


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> How about the straightforward comment:
> 
> Mozart's music is too simplistic so he's not as good as Beethoven and certainly vastly inferior to Bach (i.e. God), but he's much better than that Jew hater, Wagner, or any of that modern *atonal* garbage, boringly trivial minimalism, or especially that pretentious Cage and his worthless 4'33".


You did it, buddy. Time to close the forum!


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## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

mmsbls said:


> How about the straightforward comment:
> 
> Mozart's music is too simplistic so he's not as good as Beethoven and certainly vastly inferior to Bach (i.e. God), but he's much better than that Jew hater, Wagner, or any of that modern *atonal* garbage, boringly trivial minimalism, or especially that pretentious Cage and his worthless 4'33".


That's a good one! Bravo.


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## Renaissance (Jul 10, 2012)

All those kinds of topics provoke me a negative emotional response. Well, with the exception of the second one  Bach really is the god of music, no matter witch era you like or not.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

those wig threads can get nasty


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## Mephistopheles (Sep 3, 2012)

We could never resolve which composer had the best beard because it always ended in fist-fights.


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## HarpsichordConcerto (Jan 1, 2010)

Richard Wagner and his anti-semitic views that was responsible for the rise of Nazism, later promulgated by archconservative conductors like Herbert von Karajan, appealing to archconservative listeners who demand nothing but warhorse repertoire; exemplifying totally imbalanced listening, not want anything newer than the pyramids, who are also intolerable of online views about avant-garde composers and wanting to pull down other composers whom they do not like and expect others to follow suit, and also ...

You know the rest.


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> Yes, the Second Viennese School gets people very worked up-you worship them or loathe them.


I don't worship them nor do I loathe them. I respect them though and I love their music. All three were great composers. I also think those who loathe them are overly-conservative, and a bit silly. Their writing is quite accessible.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

peeyaj said:


> So, what are those topics that provoke the greatest emotional response to those people who listen to classical? Those topics that starts flame wars and name calling on TC. Why do people get so worked up on these?


I think you and others gave great examples in terms of actual music, but let's face it, it's mainly about attitude. I mean I can criticise a piece of music or a composer, but when you do that plus use these tactics, you're in for one hell of a bunfight:

- 'Holier than thou' attitude (these people are so high, forget a composer as a 'god,' these listeners are 'GOD,' what I say to that is that it must be very lonely at the top)

- The 'you don't value what I value so your opinion is worth nothing compared to mine' gambit (in place of opinion, you can also put some judgement about musical taste)

- Ageism or years experience with classical

- There are certain (unsaid?) 'shoulds' in music, and there's a linear path from being a member of the great unwashed to enlightenment in Nirvana (bullsh*t - isn't that Buddhism?)

- If all else fails, get out the sledgehammer - or reverse what the other said against them (like in a ****ing double fugue?), put words into their mouth or claim they are biased (while not admitting your own)

- Proffer a quote or list to 'prove' any of the above

- Question why you are on the forum in the first place (the 'credentials' game)

...& so on. Looks like I'm pretty jaded which is sad. I got all this and more when I joined just for saying an opinion. & still get it sometimes, but I get it less now. Cos when I do get it, I have strategies to deal with it, and the best strategy is SIMPLY IGNORE IT!


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## Couchie (Dec 9, 2010)

People outright refusing to acknowledge the supremacy of Wagner. Troublemakers.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I mean I can criticise a piece of music or a composer, but when you do that plus use these tactics, you're in for one hell of a bunfight:

The 'you don't value what I value so your opinion is worth nothing compared to mine' gambit...

I think that a good many of us do this to a certain extent. For example... I am far more likely to give greater credence to the opinion of a critic... or even a member here at TC whose opinions have mirrored my own to a good extent. Take our old departed friend Almaviva. We shared many similar likes within the world of opera, and so I gave serious consideration to his recommendations. Someguy, on the other hand, has almost never posted a single composer that I found the least bit interesting... and so I largely ignore whatever he has to say.

Ageism or years experience with classical

I think the issue of ageism only rears its head when an individual exhibits certain behaviors stereotypical of a given age. Obviously this cuts both ways. The notion that experience should not be valued and afforded a great deal of respect simply leaves me baffled. I'm reminded of the last Presidential election in the US when certain Neo-Cons saw fit to portray their opponents as not being "real Americans" or as being out of touch with "real America" because they had attained degrees from elite universities. In other words... knowledge and achievement and experience were portrayed as something one ought to be ashamed about.

Personally, I feel that respect is something earned. Yes... anyone is free to post on the internet... no matter how much or little experience they have concerning a given topic. And yes... all opinions are subjective... but some opinions are better than others.

I feel it is perfectly valid to ask an individual who makes blanket statements about this or that composer or genre or era just how much experience they have with the topic at hand. If you're going to repeat the overused adage that all of Vivaldi's works sound the same, then you should be prepared to be challenged by those who have listened to a lot of different works by Vivaldi and come to a different conclusion.

If all else fails, get out the sledgehammer... put words into their mouth...

We've all been misinterpreted at one time or another. This only becomes an issue when the misinterpretation is clearly intentional... and employed in a manner as to make your "opponent" appear to have said something far different from what was truly intended. Ultimately... its all part of the debating game.

Proffer a list to 'prove' any of the above

Sid... it seems to me that every last "tactic" you mention has been employed on more than one occasion by yourself... and most of us on the site. Offering examples to illustrate one's point is surely one of the best best and most accepted means of reinforcing one's critical opinion.

Obviously no one's opinion is going to be taken as gospel truth... above every and all criticism.


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## Petwhac (Jun 9, 2010)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I feel it is perfectly valid to ask an individual who makes blanket statements about this or that composer or genre or era just how much experience they have with the topic at hand. If you're going to repeat the overused adage that all of Vivaldi's works sound the same, then you should be prepared to be challenged by those who have listened to a lot of different works by Vivaldi and come to a different conclusion.


Ah but you see, art is not science. Vivaldi's works are obviously not all the same and this can be proved by comparing the scores. However if someone says that they _sound _the same to them, they don't mean it literally but they are stating an _impression _and you can't argue with an impression. You might try to convince them to listen more to Vivaldi so as to be well acquainted enough to be able to identify each and every work. To which they might reply "Life is too short".


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

You don't really like classical music if you don't like....


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## Taneyev (Jan 19, 2009)

...classical music. But if you like classical music, you should like classical music.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

quack said:


> You don't really like classical music if you don't like....


Or variations on that like 'you don't really understand 20th century music if you don't listen to/like/worship _Composer X_.'

Can be applied to any era. Very durable and handy if you wanna 'win' an argument, are 'cornered' with nowhere else to go, etc. Add that to my list above.

Re stlukes reply to me, a general thought on all that is that the reason I am now doing more of my own threads is that's where I feel 'safest' on this forum. As well as places like 'current listening' thread. & who, on the threads I make, often comes on there with the sledgehammer effect, eg. accusing me of bias. Yeah, I'm 'the only biased member in the village.' & pigs might fly.


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