# Whats is the best "London" symphony?



## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

What is the best symphony Haydn wrote for London between 1791 and 1795?

I hesitate between the symphonies # 99 and #102.

In order of preference: 

99-102 ("The Miracle")
98
95
96
104 "London"
100 "Military"
97
94 "Surprise"
93
101 "Clock"
103


----------



## opus67 (Jan 30, 2007)

I have not heard them all, but I love #94, not in the least for the much-hyped "surprise" in the second movement; it's for the first.


----------



## Guest (Apr 27, 2007)

I'd be surprised to hear that Haydn wrote any symphony that could be called anything other than "best." But then, I haven't heard all hundred and four, either. But of the ones I have heard, I _like_ no. 102 the best. That second movement... Wow.


----------



## Amade Van Haydn (May 12, 2007)

Hi!
With my nickname it's a duty for me to answer here...  
In my opinion, both London cycles (93-98 and 99-104) end with their best symphony respectively. No. 104 is IMO the best of all.
This 12-set is on a high niveau, but the symphony No. 95 seems to me the most unimportant/uninteresting (it's a pity, because there aren't much minor-symphonies of the late Haydn, but luckily there are No. 80 and above all No. 83), followed by No. 93.
I can't comprehend why the symphonies Nos. 100,101,102 often are prefered ones.
I prefer Nos. 94,96,103 to these.
So, Handel, you see, we differ much in detail, but I'm sure we agree that Haydns London symphonies are a summit of orchestral music.
Regards,
AVH.

P.S.: Haydn rules!


----------



## Handel (Apr 18, 2007)

Amade Van Haydn said:


> So, Handel, you see, we differ much in detail, but I'm sure we agree that Haydns London symphonies are a summit of orchestral music.
> Regards,
> AVH.
> 
> P.S.: Haydn rules!


Yep, Haydn totally rules. He and Handel are my favorite composers (Handel wins by a nod).


----------



## Roi N (Oct 22, 2013)

Amade Van Haydn said:


> This 12-set is on a high niveau, but the symphony No. 95 seems to me the most unimportant/uninteresting


How can you possibly say that No. 95 is uniteresting?! That marvelous main theme is constructed pefectly, just like the rest of the first movement. And the minuet is pure genius. as dramatic as they come with a nice lyrical trio to settle the mind.

This symphony rates very high up, but it's not 1st place. A symphony is rated according to all movements (1st mov. is the most important, then finale, then 2nd & 3rd together). So this leaves 'London' and 'The Clock' at first.

However:
Best 1st Movement (Top 5 in order): 97 103 104 101 95
Best 2nd Movement: 94 100 101 104 99
Best 3rd Movement: 93 95 98 94 96
Best 4th Movement: 101 104 94 102 96


----------



## GraemeG (Jun 30, 2009)

It's 96 that's nicknamed "Miracle", not 102...
GG


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

I think it would be a battle between 102-104, all three amazing in their own way.


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

How can one choose one child, they're all equally memorable.


----------



## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Going with 104. Just a guess. I haven't listened to them all though.


----------



## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

That's what I love about this forum. Necroposting is okay and the old threads are still interesting.

I would rate the No. 100 "Military" very highly if only because it is full of humor and Beethovenisms -- which turned out to be Haydnisms after all. Of course that could be said of all the later symphonies. Like the others, I have not heard them all.


----------



## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

GraemeG said:


> It's 96 that's nicknamed "Miracle", not 102...
> GG


Well, many now think that the chandelier fell during 102, not 96. But the nickname is still attached to 96, nonetheless.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

GraemeG said:


> It's 96 that's nicknamed "Miracle", not 102...
> GG


The OP might have labelled #102 as "Miracle" because it was during its premiere that a chandelier fell from the roof of the hall at Hanover Square but nobody was injured or killed. This lack of fatalities was said to be miraculous, but somehow #96 got the "Miracle" name, not #102.

Shows how arbitrary this naming process is - I think that there are many surprises during these symphonies, not just the famous and albeit very memorable one in #94. But whether or not it deserves it more than the others, it got the "Surprise" moniker nonetheless. I suppose #101 "Clock" has an appropriate name, given Haydn's interest in musical clocks, and also the "drumroll" - since in that, the drumroll in question reprises, which was going against conventions of the time - and also #104, "London" for its imagery related to Haydn's experiences of the city.

Speaking to that, there are so many wonderful moments in these masterpieces. From the "fart" in #93 (seriously!) to the replication of bagpipe drones and bells in the final movement of #104. Added to that, these works are so innovative, in terms of Beethoven alone they foreshadow and contain in embryo most of his innovations of the symphonic genre. Much else besides beyond Beethoven of course, Papa was one of the most influential composers in the history of Western classical music (but not always given that credit throughout its history, but unfortunately this is not so unusual).

There you go, I am getting very enthusiastic here!

Hard to pick a favourite but I would be happy with #104, the pinnacle of the London cycle, if pushed.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

neoshredder said:


> Going with 104. Just a guess. I haven't listened to them all though.


oh, they're excellent, definitely listen to all of them .


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

Weston said:


> That's what I love about this forum. Necroposting is okay and the old threads are still interesting.
> 
> I would rate the No. 100 "Military" very highly if only because it is full of humor and Beethovenisms -- which turned out to be Haydnisms after all. Of course that could be said of all the later symphonies. Like the others, I have not heard them all.


I think that if you like some of the London set, you're going to like all of them .


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock (Jul 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Well, many now think that the chandelier fell during 102, not 96. But the nickname is still attached to 96, nonetheless.


I never really 'got' how they managed to mix that up. Oh well, still, No. 96 also deserves to be called a Miracle.


----------



## maestro267 (Jul 25, 2009)

Vaughan Williams' 2nd.


----------



## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

maestro267 said:


> Vaughan Williams' 2nd.


Yes, but that symphony is actually _about_ London, whereas Haydn's later symphonies were simply written _in_ London.


----------



## Winterreisender (Jul 13, 2013)

I like #104 the best, particularly the folk influences in the 4th movement.


----------



## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

The last 2 are amazing. But the most underrated has to be 97 (echoes of Mozart gone and Beethoven to come), I guess it must have had some weak recordings.


----------



## Andrei (Sep 11, 2013)

I like 100 the best. I fancy that Haydn would have loved to hear it on a big modern orchestra.


----------



## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

I like no. 100, no. 95, no. 94. But I am a real beginner when it comes to Haydn's symphonies.


----------



## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

The problem with Haydn is that he wrote so many symphonies that it's difficult to know which is which. It's like having a huge library of books and ending up reading none of them because you don't know where to start!


----------



## Olias (Nov 18, 2010)

Number 100 for me. Some highlights:

1st movement
Flutes playing theme 1 in the key of theme 2 just to toy with us
Silence before the development begins in a distant key
False recapitulation leads to further development

2nd movement
Turkish percussion and bugle calls

3rd movement
The "dancing elephants" in the trio

4th movement
Oh Haydn you tease.......give us the theme already.
Timpani explosion
Turkish Percussion in the Coda!


----------



## Vaneyes (May 11, 2010)

Andrei said:


> I like 100 the best. I fancy that Haydn would have loved to hear it on a big modern orchestra.


I have no doubt that all the greats would've loved subsequent innovations. Mozart and Mahler were two especially keen on orchestral expansion. :tiphat:


----------

