# Classical Era Harpsichord



## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm a huge fan of baroque music, and the harpsichord in particular, and have recently become interested in what happens in the early classical Era. I would be interested in any suggestions, recommendations and pointers to understand this transitional period. I would also be interested in hearing early pianoforte works too. I know the harpsichord was eventually superseded by the piano.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

It's quite common to hear Haydn on a harpsichord, there's a nice recording by Yuko Wataya, and Lars Ulrich Mortensen used a harpsichord for some later sonatas. I think Siegbert Rampe recorded some Mozart on a harpsichord, someone hopefully will confirm. 

CPE Bach is sometimes recorded with harpsichord, I like very much the way Gabor Antalffy plays, and Van Asperen.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

There were many lesser-known composers who were writing for harpsichord during the Classical period. For example, there are harpsichord sonatas, concertos, etc. written by Isfried Kettner, Johann Schobert, Georg Druschetzky, Georg Anton Benda, Baldassare Galuppi, František Xaver Brixi, Giuseppe and Tommaso Giordani, Johann Gottfried Wilhelm Palschau, Karl Ditters von Dittersdorf, Dimitri Bortniansky, Maria Teresa Agnesi Pinottini, and Cecilia Maria Barthélemon. Listening to some of these on YouTube should give you a fair picture of what was happening, with the harpsichord in particular, in the early classical Era.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I've read that Mozart's earliest "piano" concertos were written for harpsichord. And I'd guess that much of his music was played on whichever instrument was on hand.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

KenOC said:


> I've read that Mozart's earliest "piano" concertos were written for harpsichord. And I'd guess that much of his music was played on whichever instrument was on hand.


A lot of the Classical era does indeed sound perfectly good on either instrument, and I wonder if, in many cases, the composers even cared; perhaps they were just writing keyboard sonatas. At the time they did not have any way of knowing how the piano would eventually completely displace the harpsichord.

With Beethoven, on the other hand, if he says it's written for a hammerklavier, you'd better believe him.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> With Beethoven, on the other hand, if he says it's written for a hammerklavier, you'd better believe him.


When Beethoven says something, I always smile and nod and reply, "Yes Sir."


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

brianvds said:


> A lot of the Classical era does indeed sound perfectly good on either instrument, and I wonder if, in many cases, the composers even cared; perhaps they were just writing keyboard sonatas. At the time they did not have any way of knowing how the piano would eventually completely displace the harpsichord.
> 
> With Beethoven, on the other hand, if he says it's written for a hammerklavier, you'd better believe him.


I read yesterday that Beethoven's early keyboard Sonatas are labelled "pour clavecin ou pianoforte". It would be interesting to hear them on harpsichord I think.


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

classical yorkist said:


> I read yesterday that Beethoven's early keyboard Sonatas are labelled "pour clavecin ou pianoforte". It would be interesting to hear them on harpsichord I think.


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## Ariasexta (Jul 3, 2010)

Have you ever wondered why harpsichord building never became radical in design? Thanks for Ruckers dynasty, many late harpsichord makers active in 1780s, 1790s, still maintained harpsichord builfing traditions started in early 1600s by Ruckers family and other builders of the time. For example Taskin or Goermans harpsichords that were builded in the 1780s, are virtually consistent in basic designs of tonal capability to that were built in the early 1700s. The germans built some radical examples but still very rare in number. Generally, harpsichord building before 1800s was highly conservative and sterile of late 18th century bourgeosie influences. Why? because antique Ruckers harpsichords has been in very great demand since 17 century untill today, they were highly treasured in spite of emerging popularity of the piano, so skillful builders tried to fake Ruckers in order to make a fortune, the fakery of Ruckers persisted untill French Revolution, helping the classical harpsichord tradition persist untill the 19th century Pleyel. 

We are lucky that we have a large amount of music for harpsichord composed through out the whole 18th century. 

Praise the Ruckers, glory to the Ruckers family.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

I'm extremely interested in exploring classical Era harpsichord music now. Domestic harpsichords didn't just get checked out when the pianoforte appeared I'm sure. Harpsichords were relatively expensive when new I would have thought and no doubt were still being played well into the 1800's in parlours all over Europe.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I've greatly enjoyed getting to know CPE Bach's keyboard concertos from the BIS series with Milos Spanyi, music of some sophistication and character that is very much in the transition between Baroque and Classical styles. I think some from this series are played on a harpsichord but more are played on early pianos (tangent pianos etc.).


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Here's Rampe 310 -- listen to the cantabile movement! I'm very tempted to buy it but I'm resisting. At the end of the extract of the second movement you can hear that interesting tuning things are happening.

https://www.7digital.com/artist/sie...mplete-piano-works-vol-5?f=20,19,12,16,17,9,2


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Mandryka said:


> Here's Rampe 310 -- listen to the cantabile movement! I'm very tempted to buy it but I'm resisting. At the end of the extract of the second movement you can hear that interesting tuning things are happening.
> 
> https://www.7digital.com/artist/sie...mplete-piano-works-vol-5?f=20,19,12,16,17,9,2


I like the sound of that alot! I was just listening to some Mozart Sonatas on a pianoforte but your link really excites me.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Just look at this review on amazon uk of the Rampe 310 -- I have to have it now.



> It is one thing to perform Mozart on period instruments. It is another to just bang away so unmusically.
> 
> I couldn't believe how horrible the 1st movement of K.310 was played. The loudness of the left hand many times made the melody played by the right hand practically inaudible. I couldn't even make out the main theme the first time through.
> 
> ...


Rampe has written a book on interpreting Mozart, as far as I can see not in English, but I hope he's written something in the booklets for the recordings.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

classical yorkist said:


> I read yesterday that Beethoven's early keyboard Sonatas are labelled "pour clavecin ou pianoforte".


Which would explain why he eventually speified hammerklavier, but why did he wait so late before doing it? Did he rreally think one could play, say, the Appassionata on a harpsichord?



classical yorkist said:


> I'm extremely interested in exploring classical Era harpsichord music now. Domestic harpsichords didn't just get checked out when the pianoforte appeared I'm sure. Harpsichords were relatively expensive when new I would have thought and no doubt were still being played well into the 1800's in parlours all over Europe.


Indeed; I have long wondered what happened to all those harpsichords. Surely they were not just dumped.
I read somewhere that when Brahms conducted Baroque works, he would get hold of a harpsichord for continuo parts, and presumably they didn't have a tradition then of building period instruments, so he must have found functional ones somewhere.



Mandryka said:


> Here's Rampe 310 -- listen to the cantabile movement! I'm very tempted to buy it but I'm resisting. At the end of the extract of the second movement you can hear that interesting tuning things are happening.
> 
> https://www.7digital.com/artist/sie...mplete-piano-works-vol-5?f=20,19,12,16,17,9,2


I don't see any links to anything that can be listened to there?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

brianvds said:


> Which would explain why he eventually speified hammerklavier, but why did he wait so late before doing it? Did he rreally think one could play, say, the Appassionata on a harpsichord?


This was simply a change in language - Beethoven used "Hammerklavier" in place of "Pianoforte" in the titles of both Op. 101 and 106. In Op. 101 he used German in the tempo and expression instructions as well. In English, of course, the word "Hammerklavier" conjures up images of wildly flailing away at the keyboard, scattering notes every which direction... :lol:

BTW the word "pianoforte" definitely excludes plucked keyboard instruments like the harpsichord, since it implies an instrument that can be played both softly and loudly.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Wilhelm Friedmann Bach wrote some wonderfully clunky sonding works with hartpsichord.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

brianvds said:


> Which would explain why he eventually speified hammerklavier, but why did he wait so late before doing it? Did he rreally think one could play, say, the Appassionata on a harpsichord?


The question that immediately arose in my mind was; did Beethoven actually compose these keyboard sonatas for the harpsichord, indeed did he ever play them on harpsichord, or were the playing instructions added by the publishers in the knowledge that harpsichords were still common in peoples homes?


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## RICK RIEKERT (Oct 9, 2017)

classical yorkist said:


> The question that immediately arose in my mind was; did Beethoven actually compose these keyboard sonatas for the harpsichord, indeed did he ever play them on harpsichord, or were the playing instructions added by the publishers in the knowledge that harpsichords were still common in peoples homes?


Beethoven's Opp. 2, 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 13, 26, and 27 with publishing dates 1795-1802, are indicated as "Pour le Clavecin ou Piano-Forte". The Opus 28 sonata and all the remaining title pages for keyboard specify Pianoforte. By 1802-03, the pianoforte had replaced the harpsichord as the popular home keyboard instrument to such an extent that publishers no longer felt that listing the harpsichord on the title pages had any value. It's unlikely Beethoven had a harpsichord in mind for the early Viennese sonatas (Opp. 2, 7, 10, and 13) , since so many effects such as crescendos and sforzando marks would not work well on a harpsichord. 'Clavecin', implying harpsichord, was it seems little more than a sales device by the publisher.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

RICK RIEKERT said:


> Beethoven's Opp. 2, 5, 6, 7, 10, 12, 13, 26, and 27 with publishing dates 1795-1802, are indicated as "Pour le Clavecin ou Piano-Forte". The Opus 28 sonata and all the remaining title pages for keyboard specify Pianoforte. By 1802-03, the pianoforte had replaced the harpsichord as the popular home keyboard instrument to such an extent that publishers no longer felt that listing the harpsichord on the title pages had any value. It's unlikely Beethoven had a harpsichord in mind for the early Viennese sonatas (Opp. 2, 7, 10, and 13) , since so many effects such as crescendos and sforzando marks would not work well on a harpsichord. 'Clavecin', implying harpsichord, was it seems little more than a sales device by the publisher.


That was certainly my suspicion, that it was something of a marketing strategy from the publishers. However, did Beethoven know? Was he asked and replied "sure, it'll sound fine on the clavecin". Having spent a couple of days listening to a few things I, personally, enjoy them played on the harpsichord.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

Beethoven's _Sonata Pathetique_ on the clavichord


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

This rather wonderful


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

MarkW said:


> Wilhelm Friedmann Bach wrote some wonderfully clunky sonding works with hartpsichord.


WF Bach wrote many clunky works for harpsichord. I have just had a couple of CDs arrive featuring his harpsichord sonatas and with some exceptions these are what could be termed wallpaper or background music.

It is interesting that the harpsichord is used as 'continuo' by many orchestras in Haydn and Mozart symphonies and though not to every taste I find it adds colour to some of the textures.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

classical yorkist said:


> Beethoven's _Sonata Pathetique_ on the clavichord


Never thought that could possibly worked, but this is actually quite cool.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Rampe's 310 is essential to hear IMO, it reveals new possibilities for the music and indeed for the harpsichord in general, I have decided to explore more of his Mozart. 

The booklet essay doesn't discuss his choices of instruments unfortunately.


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## premont (May 7, 2015)

Mandryka said:


> Rampe's 310 is essential to hear IMO, it reveals new possibilities for the music and indeed for the harpsichord in general, I have decided to explore more of his Mozart.


Is the MDG recording of 310 that much better than the one on Intercord I sent you?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

premont said:


> Is the MDG recording of 310 that much better than the one on Intercord I sent you?


I don't know because I have lost the intercord, I'll send you the MDG and you can hear for yourself.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

Here's a bunch by Georg Anton Benda:






His style is rather reminiscent of C P E Bach...


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

This is the best harpsichord concerto around, written by Johann Christian Bach, and with a great cadenza in the 1st movement by George Malcolm:






C.P.E. Bach (kind of the predecessor to Mozart as Buxtehude is in many ways the predecessor of Bach) certainly wrote harpsichord music, as did W.F. Bach.

The French harpsichord lineage begun with Chambonniere was definitely alive for much of the classical era. Probably the best of these composers is Duphly. You can find lots of his music on youtube......there was also Armand-Louis Couperin (nephew or cousin of "the Great"), as well as Forqueray.

This one seems to be a well-liked piece by Duphly:






I'm just getting into this "early-classical" era so my knowledge is rather cursory at the moment, but given that it's a neglected realm in the classical music world I might have a little more experience than typical.

I can tell you even now that it's definitely a richer, more cultured era than the late classical which is usually associated with great composers. The flair of the baroque doesn't seem to have worn off yet and these composers might not have the urgency of their forebears (like Francois Couperin, Louis Couperin, J.S. Bach, Rameau, Buxtehude, and so on), but they really take the artifice of music writing to a very high level.

No offense but it's really concerning that a thread here on transitional baroque-classical harpsichord ends up with so much Beethoven.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> C.P.E. Bach (kind of the predecessor to Mozart as Buxtehude is in many ways the predecessor of Bach) certainly wrote harpsichord music, as did W.F. Bach.


Did Mozart study CPEB? I would have said that Haydn stands to Mozart as Bux to Bach, and CPEB stands to Haydn as Bux to Bach.



Gaspard de la Nuit said:


> I can tell you even now that it's definitely a richer, more cultured era than the late classical which is usually associated with great composers.
> 
> .


This is an interesting idea, I have a bit of difficulty with the idea that Duphly's harpsichord music is "richer, more cultured" than Mozart's -- I'm thinking that the sonatas before K457 are really harpsichord sonatas as much as piano sonatas. I once saw someone argue that 457 was the first real piano sonata.


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## Gaspard de la Nuit (Oct 20, 2014)

Mandryka said:


> Did Mozart study CPEB? I would have said that Haydn stands to Mozart as Bux to Bach, and CPEB stands to Haydn as Bux to Bach.
> 
> This is an interesting idea, I have a bit of difficulty with the idea that Duphly's harpsichord music is "richer, more cultured" than Mozart's -- I'm thinking that the sonatas before K457 are really harpsichord sonatas as much as piano sonatas. I once saw someone argue that 457 was the first real piano sonata.


I'm pretty sure Mozart was familiar with CPE Bach and his music, maybe haydn is a better analogy, but the famous quote "Bach is the father, we are the children" refers to CPE Bach.

I think there's a lot more diversity in the composition technique before the classical era really got going as it relates to keyboard, and I think it might be because of the prevalence of the Austro-german composers and the influence of the gallant style....it seems like there was a kind of homogenizing effect on music for some reason at a certain point.

Also, given the preference for simplicity that took hold after a certain point, I definitely think the baroque or 'transitional' composers are often more advanced where the texture of their keyboard compositions are concerned (thicker or with more polyphony), certainly more advanced where ornamentation is concerned.

The classical era composers might travel to more remote tonalities when the spirit moves them and their works have a bigger scope where form is concerned and I wouldn't expect people whose ears are oriented to prioritize those things over what the earlier composers have to be able to find greater subtlety in the baroque and quasi-classical composers, but that doesn't mean it's not there.


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## classical yorkist (Jun 29, 2017)

An interesting discussion and perspective, many thanks. I'm no expert on classical music, I just know what I like, and I'm a lover of he harpsichord. I just had a feeling that contrary to what always seems to be written and said, namely that once the piano came along everybody just trashed heir clavichords and harpsichords, that this kind of music persisted in some way. The reason there's a lot of Beethoven in this thread is because it seemed like a perfect example of just how long the harpsichord actually persisted. Also, it allowed a different perspective on some very familiar music. I can't help but feel after investigating some classical Era music these past few weeks that it is not as interesting as baroque music to my ears.


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