# La Bohème - Beecham or Karajan



## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

These seem to be the two classic recordings. Which do you prefer?

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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

adriesba said:


> These seem to be the two classic recordings. Which do you prefer?
> 
> [
> 
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Hands down winner , no question about it.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

I have to go with Beecham! Both of these are stunning recordings but having Björling, de los Angeles and Merrill all in one recording is more than one could ask for. While Pavarotti is really great in Karajan's recording, I think it's difficult to conquer Björling. The way how cleanly he hit the notes and what ease he had in higher register are quite unbelievable. Pavarotti's voice had maybe warmer tone but I love Björling's still even more (personal bias?). de los Angeles' Mimì is very excellent and I also love the richness of Freni's voice. Merrill had an exceptionally beautiful baritone voice and he is very great Marcello - difficult for me to think of anyone in the modern recording era who could have possibly done it better.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

adriesba said:


> These seem to be the two classic recordings. Which do you prefer?
> 
> View attachment 138647
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> ...


Wouldn't be without either.


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

Barbebleu said:


> Wouldn't be without either.


Neither would I. Boheme isn't a favourite of mine, but the Beecham, Karajan and Votto are essential. Whilst I just about prefer Pavarotti over Bjorling, has there ever been a more fragile Mimi than De los Angeles?

N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The Conte said:


> Neither would I. Boheme isn't a favourite of mine, but the Beecham, Karajan and Votto are essential. Whilst I just about prefer Pavarotti over Bjorling, has there ever been a more fragile Mimi than De los Angeles?
> 
> N.


Maybe it's off-topic but how is Votto's recording compared to the other two? It has Callas! But how's the rest of the cast, Di Stefano particularly? I haven't been able to listen to it myself yet .


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

annaw said:


> Maybe it's off-topic but how is Votto's recording compared to the other two? It has Callas! But how's the rest of the cast, Di Stefano particularly? I haven't been able to listen to it myself yet .


Di Stefano is superb (and beats Bjorling for me, but then again I am somewhat mystified by the Bjorling cult. I like Bjorling, but he probably wouldn't make my top ten of tenors, he'd possibly get into the top twenty though).

Callas slims her voice down and is a convincing Mimi even if she wasn't naturally suited for the role like Freni or De los Angeles. The rest of the cast is decent and the conducting is generally good. Whilst it's of interest to fans of the two principal singers, I wish they had used the sessions to record something more up Callas' alley. Macbeth or Nabucco with Gobbi for example.

N.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

The Conte said:


> Di Stefano is superb (and beats Bjorling for me, but then again I am somewhat mystified by the Bjorling cult. I like Bjorling, but he probably wouldn't make my top ten of tenors, he'd possibly get into the top twenty though).
> 
> Callas slims her voice down and is a convincing Mimi even if she wasn't naturally suited for the role like Freni or De los Angeles. The rest of the cast is decent and the conducting is generally good. Whilst it's of interest to fans of the two principal singers, I wish they had used the sessions to record something more up Callas' alley. Macbeth or Nabucco with Gobbi for example.
> 
> N.


Thanks! I'll keep these in mind when I finally listen to it. I really like Di Stefano as well - very interesting singer to listen to and he had a marvellous warm and lyrical natural instrument. Regarding Björling, I guess it's also largely a matter of opinions. In the end, Pavarotti, Di Stefano and Björling were all very great singers and I think we are somewhat spoiled with such greats.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

annaw said:


> Maybe it's off-topic but how is Votto's recording compared to the other two? It has Callas! But how's the rest of the cast, Di Stefano particularly? I haven't been able to listen to it myself yet .


I listened back to back to both the Beecham and Votto again only recently. Beecham wins hands down over Votto in the pit, but the casts of the two recordings come out about equal. De Los Angeles is a more natural fit for Mimi, but Callas, in a role that she never sang on stage, is utterly convincing, revealing tiny details even in a line or a word of recitative that other singers barely notice. I think this is one of Di Stefano's best roles and I prefer Moffo to Amara as Musetta. I find it difficult to choose between Panerai and Merrill, Zaccaria and Tozzi. If only Karajan could have been persuaded to hang around to conduct after recording *Il Trovatore* with many of the same singers (Callas, Di Stefano, Panerai and Zaccaria), thsi recording might have trumped the lot. Votto is penny plain, a good accompanist but not much else, whereas Beecham's subtle sense of rhythm and rubato rivals that of De Sabata in *Tosca*.


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

In terms of a choice between the Beecham and the Karajan, I voted for Beecham, but I honestly thought I'd be in a minority. Both casts are superb but the Karajan enjoys far superior sound. I guess I just love the Beecham more, and love is an irrational emotion, after all.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

OK, I am going to be bad: I like neither of them as the better representations of _La Bohème_. I do not find either recording to be performances but beautiful orchestral/vocal readings. I do not suffer with them: I want to cry when Mimí dies and neither of them do it. I much prefer the "lowly" Votto, Callas, Moffo, Di Stefano, Panerai from 1955 as a CD performance, and my favorite DVD is the Levine, Scotto, Niska, Pavarotti, Wixell from the Met 1977 (the first Live from the Met series of telecasts on PBS). If pressed, I'd pick the Beecham over the von Karajan. I like Puccini not to sound like Bruckner... :devil:

P.S.: I know... _Empia razza! Anatema su me! La vendetta del ciel scenderà. Anatema su me!_


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

VitellioScarpia said:


> If pressed, I'd pick the Beecham over the von Karajan. *I like Puccini not to sound like Bruckner... :devil:*


That's savage :lol:!


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## Granate (Jun 25, 2016)

VitellioScarpia said:


> I like Puccini not to sound like Bruckner... :devil:[/I]


Wait, but wasn't the point of composing La Bohème to sound like a Bruckner symphony? 

I pick the Karajan over a mile, for playing and singing. But Italian orchestras are great at it too and the two I own by chance are the Santa Cecilia recorded by Decca and the Scala recorded by EMI.

I wanted one thread to talk about the Votto Bohème with Callas and Di Stefano. It surprised me as the most convincing Puccini recording by Callas, even when many love the studio Tosca, Turandot, Manon Lescaut, Madama Butterfly...

I would love to listen to it one day when I rest from Beethoven, Haydn, or the contemporary music I'm catching up to.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Di Stefano is superb (and beats Bjorling for me, but then again I am somewhat mystified by the Bjorling cult.


Weird, no one is scolding you for calling fans of a singer a cult. I thought even the milder "fan" or "fanatic" was supposed to be an unforgivable crime around here, much less the forbidden "c" word..

For me, the best Boheme is the Serafin with Tebaldi and Bergonzi and Bastianini by a hair over the Beecham, largely because the stereo sound is a tiebreaker for two equally enjoyable performances--between Tebaldi/Bergonzi and Bjorling/VDLA, it's a draw for me--VDLA is more touching, Tebaldi is musically more interesting and potent. The Karajan is great too, but it's behind these other two.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

howlingfantods said:


> *Weird, no one is scolding you for calling fans of a singer a cult. *I thought even the milder "fan" or "fanatic" was supposed to be an unforgivable crime around here, much less the forbidden "c" word..
> 
> For me, the best Boheme is the Serafin with Tebaldi and Bergonzi and Bastianini by a hair over the Beecham, largely because the stereo sound is a tiebreaker for two equally enjoyable performances--between Tebaldi/Bergonzi and Bjorling/VDLA, it's a draw for me--VDLA is more touching, Tebaldi is musically more interesting and potent. The Karajan is great too, but it's behind these other two.


I did notice the word had been used! Careful Conte as there are some members looking to be offended!

I have both the Beecham and the Karajan and prefer the Karajan simply because I enjoy Puccini sounding like Bruckner! In his filmed version Karajan is much brisker btw. He had a habit of stretching his singers to the limit. Quite wonderful. Of course not the only way of doing it as Beecham showed.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

howlingfantods said:


> Weird, no one is scolding you for calling fans of a singer a cult. I thought even the milder "fan" or "fanatic" was supposed to be an unforgivable crime around here, much less the forbidden "c" word..


Conte has struck me as way too nice for me to take it offensively or suspect him (?) of provoking an argument on purpose. But true, the word seems to have caused some bad feelings in the Furtwängler thread...

I'm a proud member of multiple so-called "cults" - I'm not even trying to deny that :lol:. As Tsaras said though, love is an irrational feeling!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Cult, fan, groupie, you name it. When it comes to Magda Olivero I am all of it ... and proud to say it.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

i can't stand Pavarotti so easy for me.


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## adriesba (Dec 30, 2019)

Itullian said:


> i can't stand Pavarotti so easy for me.


Can't stand Pavarotti? Well that's a first, lol. :lol:


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Itullian said:


> i can't stand Pavarotti so easy for me.


I understand that he smells terrible these days. And his voice isn't the same as it was when he was still alive.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

adriesba said:


> Can't stand Pavarotti? Well that's a first, lol. :lol:


Pavarotti and Bartoli, my nightmare concert.


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

Itullian said:


> Pavarotti and Bartoli, my nightmare concert.


It must be a real torture for you :lol: ! May I ask, out of the most innocent curiosity, what's the thing about Pavarotti you don't like? I'm intrigued!


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## The Conte (May 31, 2015)

howlingfantods said:


> Weird, no one is scolding you for calling fans of a singer a cult. I thought even the milder "fan" or "fanatic" was supposed to be an unforgivable crime around here, much less the forbidden "c" word..


Cult doesn't have to have a negative connotation (think of 'cult movies' etc.) and I certainly didn't mean it in a pejorative way here. I am genuinely surprised that a significant amount of people consider him the greatest tenor of all time. As I said, I like Bjorling, just not to that degree.

N.


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## howlingfantods (Jul 27, 2015)

The Conte said:


> Cult doesn't have to have a negative connotation (think of 'cult movies' etc.) and I certainly didn't mean it in a pejorative way here.


I agree with this 100%. But I do find it amusing that the negative pushback one gets around here for referring to cults or fanatics is inversely proportional to the actual fervency of the cult or fanaticism in question.

Which is to say, the few people around here who think Bjorling is better than Corelli or MDM don't really constitute a very fanatical or loyal or cultish following, so I suspect you will get zero pushback from your characterization. And of course, the opposite is also often the case around here when you do so refer to performers who do have fanatically loyal followings. Pretty amusing.


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## Dimace (Oct 19, 2018)

100% Herbert und die Frau Freni, who, as I have written, is for me the best Mimi ever.


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

annaw said:


> It must be a real torture for you :lol: ! May I ask, out of the most innocent curiosity, what's the thing about Pavarotti you don't like? I'm intrigued!


His thin , all head, irritating voice. 
Oh, and his phrasing.
i guess that's everything. :lol:


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Dimace said:


> 100% Herbert und die Frau Freni, who, as I have written, is for me the best Mimi ever.


No, she isn't... :devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Itullian said:


> His thin , all head, irritating voice.
> Oh, and his phrasing.
> i guess that's everything. :lol:


Are you sure you're listening to the right recording? Must be completely different from the one I'm listening to


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

annaw said:


> Conte has struck me as way too nice for me to take it offensively or suspect him (?) of provoking an argument on purpose. But true, the word seems to have caused some bad feelings in the Furtwängler thread...
> 
> I'm a proud member of multiple so-called "cults" - I'm not even trying to deny that :lol:. As Tsaras said though, love is an irrational feeling!


The word only caused a bad feeling because people didn't understand the ways used in modern journalism and were literal minded about it. I don't know just how narrow some peoples reading is but certainly if you read any modern journal you will often find the word used in a loose, non-perjorative sense


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Ultimately, words mean what common usage dictates. (That is how, over time, a hussy went from being a housewife to being a home wrecker.)


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

JAS said:


> Ultimately, words mean what common usage dictates. (That is how, over time, a hussy went from being a housewife to being a home wrecker.)


Words also mean what the context dictates.


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## Simplicissimus (Feb 3, 2020)

Can't vote in good conscience because I don't know the HvK recording well enough. Now looking forward to checking it out. I do really like the Beecham and think de los Ángeles and Björling are superb. FWIW, my favorite recording of _La bohème_ is Leinsdorf/Rome Opera Orchestra with Moffo, Tucker, and Merrill.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

VitellioScarpia said:


> No, she isn't... :devil:


That's only because you never saw Cotrubas with Shicoff in La Boheme.
I challenge you not to walk away afterward without a soaked hankie.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

nina foresti said:


> That's only because you never saw Cotrubas with Shicoff in La Boheme.
> I challenge you not to walk away afterward without a soaked hankie.


Actually, I did at the Met in the mid-80s... :tiphat:


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## Rogerx (Apr 27, 2018)

nina foresti said:


> That's only because you never saw Cotrubas with Shicoff in La Boheme.
> I challenge you not to walk away afterward without a soaked hankie.


How about Stratas and Carreras?:angel:


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Karajan by a mile for me. Desert island disc. It may be hell to Itullian, but Pavarotti's voice is absolute heaven to me. When it comes to Puccini we couldn't be on more opposite ends of the spectrum. Smooth as silk, wonderful full sonority, effortless perfect phasing, everything I want in a Boheme recording. Now if it we were talking Wagner, that would be a different story, but Puccini absolutely perfect.


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## Revitalized Classics (Oct 31, 2018)

Beecham for me, although the Karajan set is a lovely indulgence.

If I want to hear Pavarotti and Freni in Boheme, my preference is actually the marvellous live recording conducted by Thomas Schippers




For me, the result sounds spontaneous, fun, the sound is good and it is one of my favourite versions of the opera.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Beecham for me, although the Karajan set is a lovely indulgence.
> 
> If I want to hear Pavarotti and Freni in Boheme, my preference is actually the marvellous live recording conducted by Thomas Schippers
> 
> ...


This is a real belter of a performance. Opera Depot have it for about £8 ($8.95) on download. CD unavailable at present.


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## VitellioScarpia (Aug 27, 2017)

Rogerx said:


> How about Stratas and Carreras?:angel:


Unfortunately, Stratas deforming of her vowels when singing Italian is very distracting to me (see Sì, mi chiamano Mimì). Many of her a's, open e's, o's and i's sound like schwas and she deform the words. As a matter of personal taste, I found her an affected singer without being able to conceal the art.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

Revitalized Classics said:


> Beecham for me, although the Karajan set is a lovely indulgence.
> 
> If I want to hear Pavarotti and Freni in Boheme, my preference is actually the marvellous live recording conducted by Thomas Schippers
> 
> ...


This is also a fabulous live La Boheme








I voted Beecham. Although I think Freni as Mimi is one of the greatest and most perfect fits of singer to role I thought she was caught a little too late in the Karajan recording. She'd started to 'drive' her voice by then. She's perfect in the Schippers recording from 10 years earlier with Gedda as Rodolfo. Also, I have a real dislike of tenors singing in unison with the soprano at the end of act 1. I think them singing in harmony is so much lovelier. The live Karajan is electrifying. He even messes up a little bit in Act 2. Everyone gets a little bit too excited. It's wonderful.


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## vivalagentenuova (Jun 11, 2019)

I think I feel about Pavarotti the same way Conte feels about Bjorling (and I agree with him about Bjorling). He's ok, and I'd take him over, say, Florez, any day, but as leggero and lyric tenors go, I'd much rather have Schipa, Malipiero, Tagliavini, D'Arkor, Gigli, Oehman, Anders, Ansseau, etc..

I agree with damianjb1. There's a filmed version that I believe is of that same production that, though it lacks a little fire, is lovely to watch: 





Completely agree also about Freni's voice. Personally, I can't really listen to anything after her _Butterfly_ recording.


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## damianjb1 (Jan 1, 2016)

I agree with damianjb1. There's a filmed version that I believe is of that same production that, though it lacks a little fire, is lovely to watch:

Completely agree also about Freni's voice. Personally, I can't really listen to anything after her _Butterfly_ recording.[/QUOTE]

Why thank you. That's very kind.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I'll take Lamberto Gardelli's Covent Garden _La Boheme _with Shicoff and Cotrubas hands down


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## Tsaraslondon (Nov 7, 2013)

I continue to love (at least on video) the taping of Baz Luhrmann's 1990 staging for Australian Opera with a cast of believably young singers (filmed in 1993). David Hobson may not be Pavarotti in the voice department but he copes well enough with the music and his matinee idol looks certainly help. As a dramatic representation of the opera I find it totally convincing, 50s setting and all.

The whole thing's available on youtube (but with Russian subitles).


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