# What makes non-Western classical music "classical"? (eg. Indian classical music)



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

It's a question that came to my mind as I was reading the thread <Why do many people think that classical music composed for film scores is not classical music?>.

Could anyone give examples of non-Western classical music and explain why it's "classical",
and/or give examples of non-Western non-classical music and explain why it's "not classical"?


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## Hogwash (5 mo ago)

I’ve wondered about this as well. I reckon it’s due to the use of vintage instruments and some level of orchestration being involved? Here’s a couple of examples of Asian classical music:


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## PeterKC (Dec 30, 2016)

Western music is classical because of fine German engineering


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## PaulFranz (May 7, 2019)

Without specific examples, I'll say that other traditions that are sometimes labeled classical are formal music traditions distinct from popular music that require training and show greater complexity of form.


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

PaulFranz said:


> Without specific examples, I'll say that other traditions that are sometimes labeled classical are formal music traditions distinct from popular music that require training and show greater complexity of form.


I don't think the dichtomy is .... as distinct however as in Western Culture. For example in Vietnam, the Composer Pham Duy.... many of his works were very complex and showed a level of training. At the same time, they were pop songs ! Popular among both the general audience and a increasingly appreciative academia. 





. The first 3 minutes


I think debating this issue along with the status of Film Music in terms of Western Music has narrowed our understanding quite a bit. And it's frankly..... Euro Centric.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

This is obviously heavily 20th-century-influenced, and the composer received early musical education at institutions in Paris


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ph%E1%BA%A1m_Duy



A text from 2012: The curious memoirs of the Vietnamese composer Pham Duy. - Free Online Library :

" _he describes how what he calls ancient folk songs (dan ca co) developed from oral poetry (ca dao) and how he and other early composers of Western-style songs (called modern music [tan nhac] or reformed music [nhac cai cach]) purposely imitated ancient folk songs to give their modern music, or 'new folk songs' [dan ca mo'i], a national character [dan toc tinh]._ " (...) "_By his own admission, (111) Pham Duy was not the first person to compose or perform what is called 'new music' (tan nhac) or 'renovated music' (nhac cai cach)--that honour goes to Nguyen Van Tuyen--but he played a key role in popularising it. His 'new folk songs' (dan ca mo'i), songs which were perceived as new, i.e. different from traditional folk songs, but also quintessentially Vietnamese, quickly became popular. Pham Duy began composing these new folk songs when he was in the Resistance and so his early Resistance songs, works such as 'The poor village' [Que ngheo] and 'Mother of Gio Linh' [Ba Me Gio Linh], are good examples of his rapidly developing talents. These songs and others like them are likely to remain in circulation"._


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> This is obviously heavily 20th-century-influenced, and the composer received early musical education at institutions in Paris
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ph%E1%BA%A1m_Duy
> ...


Thank you for correcting me.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

Well, I'm not sure I corrected you, but there is obviously a mixture of influences and performance conventions at play here ...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

"What makes non-Western classical music 'classical'?"

I believe it is what westerners call non-western music they perceive to have an old tradition, distinct from those culture's popular music, and a sense of higher purpose than the pop music of those countries. I tend to doubt the native musicians use the term "classical music" to describe their music, but some other designation that is native to their culture.


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

joen_cph said:


> Well, I'm not sure I corrected you, but there is obviously a mixture of influences and performance conventions at play here ...


My point is; it's getting increasingly blurred.

Contiuning with Pham Duy; one of his works was presented in a Classical Format by Robert Horvath, a Canadian Classical Pianist.






It's the first time ever, that I know of that Vietnamese music of any kind was played in a controlled format 

But it also has been recorded by hundreds of Vietnamese popular music singers in the last 60 years.


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## jojoju2000 (Jan 5, 2021)

SanAntone said:


> "What makes non-Western classical music 'classical'?"
> 
> I believe it is what westerners call non-western music they perceive to have an old tradition, distinct from those culture's popular music, and a sense of higher purpose than the pop music of those countries. I tend to doubt the native musicians use the term "classical music" to describe their music, but some other designation that is native to their culture.


Would the music be considered classical if it borrows concepts from European Art music through colonization ? As in the case of Pham Duy ?


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> I believe it is what westerners call non-western music they perceive to have an old tradition, distinct from those culture's popular music, and a sense of higher purpose than the pop music of those countries. I tend to doubt the native musicians use the term "classical music" to describe their music, but some other designation that is native to their culture.


中国古典音乐

中国 = Chinese
古典 = classical
音乐 = music



http://www.guqu.net/











西方古典音乐

西方 = Western
古典 = classical
音乐 = music


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Chinese music dates back 9,000 years, and was built around a 12 tone scale and played on bamboo pipes. During the Zhou dynasty, a formal system of court and ceremonial music later termed _yayue_ (meaning "elegant music") was established. Note that the word music (樂, yue) in ancient China can also refer to dance as music and dance were considered integral part of the whole, and its meaning can also be further extended to poetry as well as other art forms and rituals. The word "dance" (舞) similarly also referred to music, and every dance would have had a piece of music associated with it. (Faye Chunfang Fei, ed. (2002). _Chinese Theories of Theater and Performance from Confucius to the Present_. University of Michigan Press. p. 3)

If in later times the Chinese adopted the western term "classical music" to describe their old canonical music, this is a later western inspired development.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> If in later times the Chinese adopted the western term "classical music" to describe their old canonical music, this is a later western inspired development.


Let's not get into that discussion, cause the list of things "Westernization" has brought into such countries is endless. I know for a fact that, certain countries in Asia, such as Korea, got their syntax and grammar completely changed from the inside out after being Westernized. Not only the use of Western-borrowed terms (like "빌딩", which is actually pronounced like "building" and has the same meaning), but also the use of punctuation and spaces, and the practice of scripting from left to right (rather than from top to bottom), etc. Let's just focus on what is asked in the OP.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

SanAntone said:


> I tend to doubt the native musicians use the term "classical music" to describe their music, but some other designation that is native to their culture.


It seems more like a minor semantics issue. If they use a different term, but still use it to differentiate certain things from "things" that are just as old, but more like a popular-music equivalent in comparison, -It would still be viable.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I would think that many cultures have a form of music which is old, and created and continued by serious minded musicians concerned with upholding a tradition and style of music that has been passed down from generation to generation. Whether it is called 'classical" music or not is irrelevant. 

The term "classical music" is a western concept. And the manner in which you styled this thread appears to indicate your own tendency to perpetuate a western cultural hegemony.


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