# Wagner question



## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

To make a list of all the times Wagner changed old cherished stories to fit his own works would take too long, and I'm not here to argue for or against it. My question is about how purists felt about such changes in Wagner's own time. Were there groups of people who felt Wagner was vandalizing stories of old? I was wondering about this because I know it's a common issue with adapted works in this age.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

The only purist I can think of who intensely disliked Wagner's adaptations of the old myths was professor Tolkien. Apart from that, I think the common sentiment in Wagner's time was just the opposite: that Wagner was reviving a cultural treasure that had long been forgotten and who cares if his vision of it was a little different.


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## kineno (Jan 24, 2015)

Speaking of Tolkien, I can't help drawing a parallel to some of Peter Jackson's revisions of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings!


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Tolkien getting mad at Wagner for making stuff up seems like a pot and kettle situation to me.


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## ahammel (Oct 10, 2012)

kineno said:


> Speaking of Tolkien, I can't help drawing a parallel to some of Peter Jackson's revisions of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings!


"The rings are both round, and there the similarity ends" were Tolkien's thoughts on the subject [of the similarity between _Der Ring_ and _The Lord of the Rings_, which is not what you were taking about at all].

Edit: woah, I didn't read that very thoroughly.


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## amfortas (Jun 15, 2011)

ahammel said:


> "The rings are both round, and there the similarity ends" were Tolkien's thoughts on the subject [of the similarity between _Der Ring_ and _The Lord of the Rings_. . .


And that's what "disingenuous" means, boys and girls!


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Does it really matter where Wagner took his ideas from? The original myths and legends are still intact. 
He used what he felt was neccessary in the creation of his own works.
Did anyone castigate Shakespeare for adapting history while writing his History Plays (all the Henrys' the Richards' ect).
I think not.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

@Pip: Of course the original stories are still intact, but that wasn't what I was asking. And does it matter? Yes it does. Where stories come from, how they change (and why) are VERY important in understanding cultures and what they hold dear. If there was no collective outcry against the changes Wagner made, what was it that made everyone OK with it?

Also, I don't think it's very respectful to be so dismissive. I was simply asking a question about one of my favorite composers. A question that is valid. Why? Because drastic deviations from classic stories interest me. I want to know Wagner's thought process, and I want to know why he felt his version improved upon the known stories.

Remember, we're all on this forum because we have a passion for opera and we want to discuss it with others. None of us come here to be belittled, so refrain from doing so in the future.


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## Pip (Aug 16, 2013)

Well allow me to disagree with you.
It does not matter a jot to me where Wagner, Verdi Mozart or any other composers took their ideas or inspiration from.
What interest me is the work they composed.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

It is fine that you do not care, but please do not suppose to hinder those of us who do. Your willful ignorance is not impressive.


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The only purist I can think of who intensely disliked Wagner's adaptations of the old myths was professor Tolkien. Apart from that, I think the common sentiment in Wagner's time was just the opposite: that Wagner was reviving a cultural treasure that had long been forgotten and who cares if his vision of it was a little different.


It should be noted that J.R.R. Tolkien was born 9 years after Wagner died; his reaction is certainly not that of a contemporary.

My understanding is that with regard to his ideas about opera/music-drama and his compositions he was very controversial.

I don't know how people felt about the his adaptations; it is my impression that his sources were not widely known and the stories were basically not a part of popular culture. I'd love to see sources that had information on this, though!


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## Headphone Hermit (Jan 8, 2014)

I have no problem with Wagner putting his own twist on a previous version of a story (or Bellini or Donizetti or Shakespeare or Chaucer or Dante or the scribe of Boewulf etc etc). Stories often evolved, changed, even ended up as unrecognisable versions of what came before
Wagner was re-telling a myth for his own purposes rather than producing a definitive history, surely?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

One thing to keep in mind about Wagner's adaptations of mythical and legendary material is that the stories did not have single or definitive forms to begin with. The Parsifal stories were a complex body of accreted and synthesized tales from a number of sources, and the same goes for the Scandinavian and Germanic sources used in creating the _Ring._ To a very great extent Wagner was not retelling old stories but using elements of them to tell his own.

Another thing to remember is that Wagner was writing not narrative poems but operas. The first order of business in writing an opera is to get rid of the incidental and the extraneous - whatever cannot be given effective expression in music. Old myths and legends are full of incident, as befits stories devised for verbal recitation. Wagner was a master at paring stories down to the musically effective bone; the ultimate condensation is _Tristan und Isolde_, where plot is reduced to a few critical incidents and the focus is entirely on the true subject of the opera, the emotions of the protagonists.

I'm not aware that there has ever been significant objection to Wagner's use of mythical and legendary materials for operatic purposes. After all, there was already a long history in European culture, beginning in the Renaissance, of adapting Greco-Roman mythical and historical-legendary material for artistic purposes and for the lyric stage.


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