# Female composers... separating talent from gender?



## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

About the legacy of female composers, how do people separate the composer's fame/recognition in the classical music world based on her gender versus her "actual" talent (which for me is a social construct and subject to all types of argument)?

Do people here think that women get recognition based on affirmative action rather than based on her ability to compose a piece which is truly innovative?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I don't think female composers get a whole lot of recognition at all here. One issue is, if you don't listen to post WW2 music, there isn't much out there. But I think many of us would ask of you: do you pay attention to gender when deciding whether you like a piece?

A more interesting question might relate to female performers. Do people pay attention to gender (for singers, they pretty much have to)? Is there a horndog element here that falls for pretty female performers?


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## Guest (May 23, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> *About the legacy of female composers, how do people separate the composer's fame/recognition in the classical music world based on her gender versus her "actual" talent (which for me is a social construct and subject to all types of argument)?
> 
> Do people here think that women get recognition based on affirmative action rather than based on her ability to compose a piece which is truly innovative?*


I have bolded every word here that is technically a social construct. Now stop using that meaningless term.

I despise affirmative action in all its forms. Saariaho, Gubaidulina, Chin, Neuwirth, Saunders, Weir, Thorvaldsdottir, Barrett, etc... these ladies write great music, but who cares that they're ladies when listening to their music? Starting threads like this only perpetuates such silly notions.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I can tell you my own experience with a late romantic / post romantic French composer. Knowing the names of some people from France can sound kind of feminine to us uncultured Amurrcans -- Camille Saint-Saens, Michel Delalande, Étienne Moulinié, etc. -- how was I to know Cécile Chaminade was female? So I judged her music strictly without her gender clouding the issue either way and found it quite nice. It strikes me as sublime, highly structured gems both beautiful and intellectual at the same time. 

Chin on the other hand -- I wonder if her music is as good as I think, or am I giving it more credence trying to overcompensate for a tendency I may not even have to wrongfully dismiss it because of her attractiveness? I've gone back and forth with this and finally gave up. Now I try to just enjoy the music without thinking about her at all. I do wonder if this weird cultural bias has impacted her career an any way.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I know that for you, Albert7, gender is the defining issue, as evidenced by the repeating themes and implications of your posts  but, for me, gender in music does not exist. I do not buy albums based on the gender of the composer or the performers. I don't record the gender of composers or performers in my collection database, either. Obviously, many women are members of orchestras and it is not uncommon that members of string quartets are female. With singers, the quality and timbre of the voice are important to my enjoyment. Horndogging doesn't come into the picture when there are no pictures: I listen to CDs.


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

I am a woman and historically females have been thin on the ground in the composing or performing world. So naturally, if I come across a composer that I didn't know about (not difficult) & it's a woman, I do take 'affirmative action' & listen to works by that person. But I don't think it makes any difference to whether I like it or not. I like baroque composers like Barbara Strozzi or Elisabeth Jacquet de la Guerre because I like baroque music, not because of their gender. 

With more modern female composers, and the multitude of female performers (violinists, in particular), I sometimes don't care for their style, but again, that's down to my taste in music, not their gender. I'm going to see Rachel Podger in Norwich Cathedral in September, d.v., and looking forward to it, only because it's a rare chance to hear someone well-known in the baroque violin world. Andrew Manze would have been just as big a thrill. 

Conceivably I might like an opera written by a woman not only for its music but because it illuminated female issues. But the music would have to be good first.

I don't think there'll be many on this forum who'd base their judgement on the gender of the performer or composer rather than on the music.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

brotagonist said:


> With singers, the quality and timbre of the voice are important to my enjoyment.


Indeed. I'm always careful not to judge female baritones based on gender. 

(I joke, but who knows? Maybe there is such a thing. Gender is of course a spectrum.)


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Weston said:


> Indeed. I'm always careful not to judge female baritones based on gender.
> 
> (I joke, but who knows? Maybe there is such a thing.)


I've always wondered that if gender was completely ignored in classification of voice types, how many (if any) men would be classified as (natural non-countertenor) altos or women as tenors.


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## Guest (May 23, 2015)

I might give records a little "extra credit" if the composers are female, but not for long.

For example, at one point I was pleased to find out that all the composers on this album are female:








But that in itself does not mean I listen to it more (or less) than this album:








Lots of factors might have a small impact on my listening and evaluation process -- backstory, performer reputations, cover art, purchase price, etc. Hopefully over time the quality of the music itself takes precedence.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> About the legacy of female composers, how do people separate the composer's fame/recognition in the classical music world based on her gender versus her "actual" talent (which for me is a social construct and subject to all types of argument)?
> 
> Do people here think that women get recognition based on affirmative action rather than based on her ability to compose a piece which is truly innovative?


Ahhhhh Albert.

I'm going to end my extended leave from TC to discuss this important topic.

The problem is actually the opposite Albert.






For example, the above woman would have been spoken of in the same breath as Cage, Parmegiani, and Young if only she weren't a woman. But she gets less esteem, I feel, because she is a woman, even though her work is outstanding, revolutionary, vital, and awesome.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

It's simply an unavoidable fact that across history almost all composers have been male. This is changing, but still as far as I know women remain significantly in the minority among contemporary composers.
Any discussion about classical music generally will inevitable focus almost exclusively on men, and this will perpetuate to some small degree the suggestion that composition is male territory.
So I'm totally in favour of making an effort to highlight the contributions of women to composition - and especially the contributions of today's women. If this is looked down on as "affirmative action", so be it. Granted, I don't see the merit in praising a mediocre composer ahead of other, better composers just because she's a woman; but equally I don't see the merit in snitty counterclaims of "you only praised her because she's a woman" in the absence of any evidence of same. [For the sake of the argument I'm ignoring my own preference of avoiding terms like "mediocre" and "better"!]
I don't think any of us could tell by blind listening whether a piece was written by a woman or man, and I think there's value in someone looking over their own collection of (contemporary) music, seeing what percentage of it is by women, and having a think about whether that figure seems reasonable.

For instance, looking at one of my playlists, of my favourite music of the 21st-century, I see 19 male composers and 2 female. This strikes me as a bit low on the female side, in the following sense: let's say one of my kids looks at that list and asks "Are composers nearly always men?", to which I respond "Well, a lot of them are; as far as I know about 15% of newly performed music is by women", to which _they_ respond, "I've done percentages at school - 2 out of 21 isn't even 10%. Why don't you have 15%?", to which _I_ reply, "I don't know. That's just how it worked out", to which _they_ reply, "That's not much of an answer, is it? Perhaps because you're not making enough affirmative effort, you're merely passively perpetuating a wholly unjustifiable male dominance", to which all I can say is "Go to your room!"


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## Le Peel (May 15, 2015)

I hate the idea of women being recognized because of their gender rather than their abilities (should they have any). Not only is it unfair to their male peers, it undermines their achievements, whether successful or not.

Before Spotify removed apps, the app 'Classify' had started introducing female composers. Normally, Classify only featured major composers. However, Classify had yet to introduce Arnold Schoenberg. Who was no doubt more important than Fanny Mendelssohn-Hensel or Clara Schumann, who were introduced. The introduction of these composers seemed like a politically correct exercise in "female representation" rather than a recognition of their composition abilities (which I found average).


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

The idea that we might be hearing too much from women composers because of affirmative action is bizarre. Are male composers bringing suit because they think they deserve all those conservatory faculty posts and conducting positions occupied unjustly by women? If there is any discrimination based on gender in the field of music I would expect it to operate in the other direction and to reflect wider societal attitudes toward women in the professions.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

The fundamental question here now is does the concept of gender enter into the equation when say a female composer decides to pen her composition or not? I think that it goes both ways. For example, I can say that Takemitsu used his Aasian background to add depth to his avant-grade methods.

I don't think that we can listen to a female composer and not care about her gender without losing that extra dimension of interpretation.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Weston said:


> Gender is of course a spectrum.


In nature, barring aberrations, there are only two: male, female.

[It would be difficult not to judge a female baritone on gender, though ]


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> *The fundamental question here now is does the concept of gender enter into the equation when say a female composer decides to pen her composition or not?* I think that it goes both ways. For example, I can say that Takemitsu used his Aasian background to add depth to his avant-grade methods.
> 
> *I don't think that we can listen to a female composer and not care about her gender without losing that extra dimension of interpretation.*


Why generalize? it might be of interest in some contexts to know the gender of the composer of the music you're hearing. In a different context it might be of no interest whatever. What would it tell us about the music? What is the "extra dimension"of which you speak? Why is this a "fundamental" question?

Haven't you just changed topic here? Am I the only one confused by this thread?


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

Come to think of it, I'm going to row back a little on (or at least expand on) my earlier statement "I don't see the merit in praising a mediocre composer ahead of other, better composers just because she's a woman".
It depends on the context. If we're discussing music history or attempting to construct some sort of canon of works (whatever the merits of such an endeavour!) then yes, our responsibility would be to reflect reality rather than favour a composer "just because she's a woman". Thus, for instance, we'd draw attention to Gustav Mahler over Alma - there's surely no argument over who was the more "significant" or "better" composer. But for the individual listener who's deciding what music to listen to or to talk about, there's no obligation to take that approach, and if the individual listener chooses to prioritise Alma's lieder over Gustav's "just because she's a woman", then who the hell am I to criticise the listener's choice? In that sense, there _is_ merit in that choice.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> I don't think that we can listen to a female composer and not care about her gender without losing that extra dimension of interpretation.


I cannot forget that Gubaidulina is a woman, but I am not cognizant of listening to her music differently than to the music of a male composer. I like her compositions like Offertorium and am indifferent to all of the plainchant or early religious inspired works. Does any of that have much to do with her gender? I don't believe so.



Woodduck said:


> Am I the only one confused by this thread?


No, I'm not confused. It's a pet agenda


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I think it's good to talk about the cultural and structural reasons why women continue to be underrepresented in composition, but that's separate from talking about the music itself. I'm actually not sure how you can do both at the same time without it being sexist and patronizing..."Hey, Gubaidulina is an excellent composer, and, wow, she's a woman!"


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

Nereffid said:


> I don't think any of us could tell by blind listening whether a piece was written by a woman or man . . .


My own accidental blind listening supports this.

What's really weird though is this doesn't seem to hold true for the visual arts. I can often tell the gender of an illustrator for instance based on the techniques preferred, choice of palette, etc . Whether this is really gender based or culturally based I don't know. The same might be said to a lesser extent with writing. If my perception is real and not imagined, why this slight difference doesn't translate into music is a mystery.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Yes, Gubaidulina's In Tempus Praesens is good because it's good, not because it's a good female composer work.

But I still think that women may even be underrated due to cultural biases still.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Dim7 said:


> I've always wondered that if gender was completely ignored in classification of voice types, how many (if any) men would be classified as (natural non-countertenor) altos or women as tenors.


Russell Oberlin was supposedly a "real" alto:


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Weston said:


> The same might be said to a lesser extent with writing.


I have found that with writing it is easier to tell the gender of the writer... or, at least, the 'gender' of the work. While I have read many female authors, I find that they tend to write 'stories' that I am not that much interested in. There is the classic example of Jane Austen, which is still required reading in most literature classes. It is enough to make most males fall asleep or even drop out of the course. I still cannot approach her writing without this bias. Same with Virginia Woolf.

Anaïs Nin, on the other hand


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

^Austen and Woolf are both towering geniuses of English literature. This is digressing from classical music but I cannot let this stand!


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

SeptimalTritone said:


> Yes, Gubaidulina's In Tempus Praesens is good because it's good, not because it's a good female composer work.
> 
> But I still think that women may even be underrated due to cultural biases still.


So how do you think that our cultural biases affect how a female composes her music potentially? Theme? compositional style?


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## Bulldog (Nov 21, 2013)

I think it's a bad idea to think of anyone in terms of group identity - causes all kinds of problems including mass genocide.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Bulldog said:


> I think it's a bad idea to think of anyone in terms of group identity - causes all kinds of problems including mass genocide.


I doubt this thread wil go that far.


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## TresPicos (Mar 21, 2009)

Albert7 said:


> The fundamental question here now is does the concept of gender enter into the equation when say a female composer decides to pen her composition or not?


It probably doesn't enter into the equation at all. She probably composes the music that she as an individual wants to compose without considering her own gender or hair color or shoe size, just like a male composer would.

Pretty much everyone would probably fail to identify a female composer in a blind test. And when told that the composer in question was female, that fact would probably not add anything of value to the interpretation.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Albert7 said:


> So how do you think that our cultural biases affect how a female composes her music potentially? Theme? compositional style?


I meant the reception of it rather than the music composed itself.

For me, I cannot tell when a composer is female from just listening to it, just as a few people above have mentioned.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> A more interesting question might relate to female performers. Do people pay attention to gender (for singers, they pretty much have to)? Is there a horndog element here that falls for pretty female performers?


There is *absolutely* no question about that happening!!! As I look at this site, I could be excused for thinking that all cellists are young, attractive women.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

What about intersex and transgender people?


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## Itullian (Aug 27, 2011)

Since this sight is practically all men, its good marketing since men are buyers.

Except for Community Forum and Opera where most hang out.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Albert7 said:


> About the legacy of female composers, how do people separate the composer's fame/recognition in the classical music world based on her gender versus her "actual" talent (which for me is a social construct and subject to all types of argument)?
> 
> Do people here think that women get recognition based on affirmative action rather than based on her ability to compose a piece which is truly innovative?


For early music, it was no job for a woman to be a composer and or a performer. Many did but were still a minority.


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## Guest (May 24, 2015)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What about intersex and transgender people?


Has there ever been a highly-regarded transgender composer?

Anyway, I stand by what I said earlier. The only reason things like this are still alive is simply because people keep bringing them up. To those of you that understand how entirely irrelevant this is, I salute you.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

L. van Beethoven, as we all know, was born female (thus the name "Ludovica" on her baptismal certificate). Not transgender certainly, in those days of primitive surgery. But she spent almost her entire life as a cross-dresser. Her closest friends, who knew of this, encouraged her in her choice of careers and supported her musical efforts.

In the previous generation, one of the most famous swordsmen in Europe, Chevalière d'Éon de Beaumont, cross-dressed as a woman for years. Here he is in a famous 1787 contest with Chevalière de St. Georges, noted swordsman, composer and conductor of African descent, who commissioned and conducted Haydn's Paris symphonies in that city.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

nathanb said:


> Has there ever been a highly-regarded transgender composer?


Wendy Carlos would be the most prominent. But no, it isn't relevant to her music.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

nathanb said:


> Has there ever been a highly-regarded transgender composer?


As far as I know there hasn't been, but it would be interesting to see what kind of reactions there would be amongst listeners and musicians. Personally, I don't give a damn about the actual composers as people unless I know them. I never listen to female composers just because they are female, I listen to the music because I really like et the music, and I do believe pieces like Farrenc's 3rd symphony should be programmed more often!


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I try to judge the music, not the composer, personally. Whether or not I like the music, the gender of the composer does not affect my opinion.



ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> What about intersex and transgender people?


Unfortunately, I don't know of any. Perhaps this is because so few people are intersex or transgender?


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Who was the first 20th century female composer? I think I know the answer. I had to do some research on this.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

What defines "20th century" ... Born after 1900? Born before but actively composing after 1900? And how do we define composer? Works performed? Works published but not performed? or...??


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## Kevin Pearson (Aug 14, 2009)

Personally I don't intentionally set out to listen to women composers but if I hear a piece I like and it happens to be written by a woman I might seek out more of her material. I just don't think about music in that in that way. I'm more interested in the music itself that the sex or sexuality of the person who wrote it.

Kevin


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

I totally listen to Tchaikovsky to get a gay perspective on life


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

ArtMusic said:


> Who was the first 20th century female composer? I think I know the answer. I had to do some research on this.


Cecile Chaminade preceded Amy Beach by about ten years though of course both were composers on Jan 1, 1901. Others are not readily coming to mind. I'd be interested in who you've got.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

We could go way way back with Hildegard von Bingen for early composers...


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

It's fairly easy for me to evaluate a composer by his/her musical ability alone. Historically, there are more male composers not because they were any more talented but simply because they had more social opportunities. This trend is changing due to better attitudes toward female composers and greater freedom, fortunately.

Won't mention any names, but I have noticed that certain individuals have seemed to prefer some female composers/musicians merely because they are young and attractive. This approach does bother me quite a bit and I try to ignore it.


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

And then there was Jeanne Demessieux - Organist and composer extraordinaire...Sadly, she died in 1969. Take a listen to the link below:


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## Ilarion (May 22, 2015)

Albert7 said:


> We could go way way back with Hildegard von Bingen for early composers...


YEAH!!! Hildegard of Bingen ROCKS!!!


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## Dim7 (Apr 24, 2009)

Celloman said:


> It's fairly easy for me to evaluate a composer by his/her musical ability alone. Historically, there are more male composers not because they were any more talented but simply because they had more social opportunities. This trend is changing due to better attitudes toward female composers and greater freedom, fortunately.


There's no question that "social opportunities" is a part of the reason, but I don't agree with the part about "simply". Even today, males tend to be on the "top" of most human endeavours. Also, I'm under the impression that in other arts haven't been as male dominated.


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## Guest (May 25, 2015)

A while back, the United States Supreme Court ruled that "separate but equal" is "inherently unequal". Sure, it's never been a better time to be a female composer, but if anything still holds them back, it's the fact that people like the thread-starter still see them as "different".


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## Celloman (Sep 30, 2006)

Becca said:


> As I look at this site, I could be excused for thinking that all cellists are young, attractive women.


Except for me..............................................


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

Being a fan of almost exclusively 20th century and contemporary classical music, my collection is full of female composers. Joan Tower, Thea Musgrave, Sofia Gubaidulina, are just a few in my collection that I consider are world class, of any gender. 

I do my best not to take their gender into consideration when listening to their music, and I believe I am successful. Their music rises or falls on its own merit.


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## Guest (May 26, 2015)

Celloman said:


> Except for me..............................................


What , you don't think that or you're not a young, attractive cellist? Or both?


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## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Simon Moon said:


> Being a fan of almost exclusively 20th century and contemporary classical music, my collection is full of female composers. Joan Tower, Thea Musgrave, Sofia Gubaidulina, are just a few in my collection that I consider are world class, of any gender.
> 
> I do my best not to take their gender into consideration when listening to their music, and I believe I am successful. Their music rises or falls on its own merit.


Well said.

How about Jennifer Higdon? She's one of my favorite modern composers. And, as you've noted of the fine composers you cited, her music stands on its own merits. It has nothing to do with her gender (or sexual orientation, for that matter). You're probably familiar with her music, but on the slight chance that you're not, I'd recommend _Piano Trio_ and _An Exaltation of Larks_. Beautiful modern music but solidly in the classical tradition IMO.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

Bluecrab said:


> Well said.
> 
> How about Jennifer Higdon? She's one of my favorite modern composers. And, as you've noted of the fine composers you cited, her music stands on its own merits. It has nothing to do with her gender (or sexual orientation, for that matter). You're probably familiar with her music, but on the slight chance that you're not, I'd recommend _Piano Trio_ and _An Exaltation of Larks_. Beautiful modern music but solidly in the classical tradition IMO.


Amen, Hahn did a violin piece composed by her. So lovely.


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## mtmailey (Oct 21, 2011)

I care more about the sound of the music than gender but men makes better music than women.Amy beach had a nice symphony & Price had to fine symphonies.


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