# Large scale choral/symphonic works



## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I think that it is fascinating that quite a number of composers who were active in the late 1800s and early 1900s all composed a large scale choral piece relatively early in their career. I suppose that it's not a great surprise that these works are not the favourites of a significant part of the TC community, but I think that's unfortunate. Having said that, let's find out ... which of these works are ones that you enjoy? I am not asking for ranking which I strongly dislike, just your opinion.


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

I'd also consider Karol Szymanowski's 3rd symphony ('Song of the Night'), though this is middle-period Szymanowski and not an early work.

Expanding the timeline past WWII, significant contributions to choral repertoire were made by composers such as Erik Bergman, Maurice Ohana and no doubt many others.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I was particularly interested in what amounted to one of their earliest major orchestral/symphonic compositions. I could also add Michael Tippett but chose not to do so and to limit the time period. Even adding Havergal Brian rather stretches it.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I've tried and failed a few times to stay with Brian's mind-numbing monstrosity, which is Gothic in the popular and not the aesthetic sense. Frankly, I have difficulty with anything I've heard by Brian, but since he wrote a lot there must (?) be something that would float my boat.

That said, I've enjoyed all the other works, _Kullervo_ being probably my favorite. There was a period when I couldn't get enough of VW's _Sea Symphony,_ but I haven't listened to it in many years. The others I revisit rarely.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Interesting ... so far only one person who is brave (foolhardy?) enough to say that they don't like any of the!


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

To the Irish, no sound is more wondrous than that of the human voice - granted, it's usually the sound of our own voices that we find so wondrous - which kind of explains why the gift of gab is the gift that keeps on giving... 

I chose all five of the available selections - Equal parts personal preference and shameless pandering.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I am cannot tolerate Havergal Brian at all, and neither the music of Vaughan Williams nor Sibelius has ever captured my imagination. So Mahler and Schoenberg got my votes, although Gurre-Lieder is not what Schoenberg is really known for. 

However, there are many more large orchestral choral works I love that were not listed; it is a form that appeals to me and my preference for vocal works in general, over purely instrumental music.


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

Thank you very much for this thread, Becca.

With choral symphonic works, my number one is Mahler 8 - I understand the reasons why this is not on the list.

Else, I prefer RVW #1 and Sibelius #0.



SanAntone said:


> although Gurre-Lieder is not what Schoenberg is really known for.


I have no survey of what are Schönberg's well-known works, but to my opinion the Gurrelieder are his major achievement from his tonal phase. I also like Pelleas und Melisande op. 5 and of course Verklärte Nacht op. 4.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

> the Gurrelieder are his major achievement from his tonal phase


Right. But Schoenberg is not really known for his "tonal phase."


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## Shaughnessy (Dec 31, 2020)

Philidor said:


> *With choral symphonic works, my number one is Mahler 8 - I understand the reasons why this is not on the list.*


Plus one...


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## Philidor (11 mo ago)

SanAntone said:


> Right. But Schoenberg is not really known for his "tonal phase."


I would call "Verklärte Nacht" the best-known work of Schönberg, but maybe I am wrong.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Philidor said:


> I would call "Verklärte Nacht" the best-known work of Schönberg, but maybe I am wrong.


I think you are missing my point: Schoenberg is famous primarily for developing the 12-tone method of composition - more so than for any individual work. But I grant you that _Verklärte Nacht_ is probably his most popular work.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I’ve seen Gurrelieder a couple of times, it’s a perfectly decent concert warhorse, French sounding in parts, long sections of exciting music. Put it like this, if someone were to invite me to a concert with it, I would at least think about the idea.

The last time I saw it it had Hotter as the speaker, it may have been his last concert.

Never got into the Klagende Lied, but that’s maybe my lack of effort.

If I’ve heard any of the rest I’ve completely forgotten. I vaguely remember having an LP with the sea symphony, can’t remember what I felt about it though.


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## Admiral (Dec 27, 2014)

Though I'm a former chorister for a top tier orchestra, I dislike most choral music, including the 3 listed above that I've heard


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

I enjoy all those works and a lot more. It's a treat to hear a major symphonic work that just happens to have a choral part. The version of 1812 Overture with chorus, too! Sadly, I know the works on this survey only by recording.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

I came late to VW's Sea Symphony but I have now come to recognise its charms.
Unfortunately Brian's Gothic is a mystery to me - but then again I wasn't that fond of the film about his life either


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

I have never heard anything by Brian; I have heard the other pieces but don't particularly care for any of them but neither do I dislike them. None of them was enticing enough to spend a lot of time with it. The one I know best and find attractive and very interesting for such an early work (The Sea symphony and Gurrelieder were begun earlyish but the composers were in their late 30s when they eventually finished them) is "Das Klagende Lied". This is probably because Mahler is also the composer of these 5 I am most interested in.


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## dko22 (Jun 22, 2021)

although it's uneven -- the best parts of Kullervo, particularly the third part, outclass anything else not only on this list but also in Sibelius output before the 4th symphony, I would say. Gurrelieder is a fine piece although i find listening to the whole of it somewhat hard work. The English works I don't like at all.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Gurrelieder is an important piece of music as well as a rewarding one. No work, perhaps, marks the ending (the collapse?) of the dominance of tonality as clearly as it does. I suppose Kullervo is also important because it was the first Sibelius masterpiece.


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## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

Becca said:


> Interesting ... so far only one person who is brave (foolhardy?) enough to say that they don't like any of the!


I may the second foolhardy person to vote for 'none of the above'. As much as I like Schoenberg (and also quite a lot of vocal music in general) _Gurre-lieder _is not my cup of tea_. _

My idea of choral music is something like Lily Boulanger's _Hymn au soleil. _In general I don't really like works which purport to be e.g. a symphonic work or string quartet and then shoehorn-in some vocal element for effect. It works sometimes, sometimes it really doesn't.


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

Chat Noir said:


> ... In general I don't really like works which purport to be e.g. a symphonic work or string quartet and then shoehorn-in some vocal element for effect. It works sometimes, sometimes it really doesn't.


They are hardly shoehorning in a vocal effect, rather it is the raison d'être of the work.


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## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

Becca said:


> They are hardly shoehorning in a vocal effect, rather it is the raison d'être of the work.


Yes those in the poll, but not the ones that do what I described. Like e.g. Schoenberg's SQ no.2.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Chat Noir said:


> I may the second foolhardy person to vote for 'none of the above'. As much as I like Schoenberg (and also quite a lot of vocal music in general) _Gurre-lieder _is not my cup of tea_. _
> 
> My idea of choral music is something like Lily Boulanger's _Hymn au soleil. _In general I don't really like works which purport to be e.g. a symphonic work or string quartet and then shoehorn-in some vocal element for effect. It works sometimes, sometimes it really doesn't.


Ha! I'm the opposite. I like the idea of hybrid works, with instrumental movements and choral or vocal movements. Beethoven's 9th is the ancestor, and people still debate whether it "works." I love it.


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## Chat Noir (4 mo ago)

Woodduck said:


> Ha! I'm the opposite. I like the idea of hybrid works, with instrumental movements and choral or vocal movements. Beethoven's 9th is the ancestor, and people still debate whether it "works." I love it.


Yes of course, it is perfectly legitimate as a choice and sometimes works to great effect. Sometimes it doesn't, but there's a tendency for some to see a work (such as that Schoenberg SQ I mentioned) as somehow more 'artistic' and profound because it has a vocal element. 

I may be only expressing a personal judgement, since I like string quartets to be string quartets rather than songs accompanied by strings, but another opinion about such works is perfectly valid.


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## Roger Knox (Jul 19, 2017)

I think young composers of the late 19th-early 20th centuries would have become adept at writing for chorus through both training and experience -- religious, patriotic, folk music, etc. Also these energetic composers would have something to "say" in words as well as music, with texts the audience could respond to as poetry was still part of the culture.


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## RobertJTh (Sep 19, 2021)

My vote goes to Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, the only work in the list that really gives me goosebumps when listening to it. And not because of the thrilling effects caused by the giant orchestra and complex orchestration (well, granted, that's part of it too) but because of the intense emotionality of the work.
At first it sets the outlines of a romantic love story that ends tragically (with the heartbreaking Song of the Wood Dove), then, in the 2nd and 3rd parts it becomes something cosmic, starting with Waldemar's sacrilegious "aria". The soaring "sorrow" theme that ends the 2nd part and reoccurs later never fails to work on my tear ducts...
Progressing through a succession of grandiose and intimate scenes, we finally arrive at two pantheist nature "tableaux", the expressionist Sprechstimme scene that predates Pierrot Lunaire - and the cathartic final sunrise.
It's a misconception that Schoenberg hated the piece, he was only frustrated because its outdated style (for the most part) meant it had success where his more personal, modern works didn't. But he conducted it many times himself, including the Dutch and English premieres. He was justly proud of the piece, not of what it represents stylistically.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Sibelius > Schoenberg, Mahler > Brian > RVW

Vaughan WIliams is one of my favourite composers, but this is probably my least favourite of his better known works.


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