# Honest Thoughts On Symphonic Metal?



## Katt (May 9, 2012)

I'm new to the site, so hello to all. 

I'm a HUGE fan of the Symphonic Metal genre, even though its much more popular in Europe than in the States. It's sound is often a mixture of typical metal elements along with a bombastic orchestral sound and choir. A popular Finnish band called Nightwish had an operatic singer for most of their career. I'm interested to hear the thoughts on this genre, and do you think they do a good job of incorporating symphonic sounds?

Here are some great examples from the genre.....


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## Moira (Apr 1, 2012)

When I first heard of it I thought that it would be ugly. Then I listened to it and enjoyed it. Very accessible to classical music lovers.


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## Katt (May 9, 2012)

Moira said:


> When I first heard of it I thought that it would be ugly. Then I listened to it and enjoyed it. Very accessible to classical music lovers.


Haha. I've yet to find an ugly song from any of my favorite bands. Glad you liked it! It's definitely an acquired taste for most.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

I don't like it, in execution. I find most of it to be structured like pop despite the symphonic elements, and usually it's too faithful to hoary 80s metal cliches that came with the territory of the genre back then but shouldn't be emulated.

Funny thing is, the band Therion actually _lost_ their complex polyphonic approach when they switched from death metal to symphonic metal. I can't recommend their death metal stuff enough, anyway.

Emperor's debut album is _amazing_, but despite being considered symphonic, it's all synth. The caveman approach just works best in metal.


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## Katt (May 9, 2012)

regressivetransphobe said:


> I don't like it, in execution. I find most of it to be structured like pop despite the symphonic elements, and usually it's too faithful to hoary 80s metal cliches that came with the territory of the genre back then but shouldn't be emulated.
> 
> Funny thing is, the band Therion actually _lost_ their complex polyphonic approach when they switched from death metal to symphonic metal. I can't recommend their death metal stuff enough, anyway.
> 
> Emperor's debut album is _amazing_, but despite being considered symphonic, it's all synth. The caveman approach just works best in metal.


Opinions are opinions, but I find Symphonic Metal to be the farthest from Pop music. I don't see any relation to a pop sound as far as vocals or instrumentation.


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## regressivetransphobe (May 16, 2011)

What I mean is to me, a lot of it feels like your usual verse/chorus stuff backed up with symphonic accents. Nightwish are the main offenders, and I've heard plenty of clone bands with the same issue.
Formulaic music isn't _necessarily_ bad--it's all about how you use the language you choose, no matter how simple--but post-95 (or so) metal in general rubs me wrong. Paradoxically, I think the genre had a more sophisticated sense of songcraft and development when it was uglier and more acoustic. The relation between riffs really meant something.
Anyway, that's my two cents


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## Stargazer (Nov 9, 2011)

Well my only exposure to the particular genre is from the ones you posted, but I really am not a fan from those. The first two had a few nice moments, but then some crazy person starts yelling inaudibly into the microphone lol, it scared me . The third one actually wasn't bad at all, but still not really my cup of tea. Then again I've never been a fan of the metal genre as a whole, I find a lot of it seems to focus on making as much noise and playing as many notes as fast as possibly...in addition to the strange screaming stuff lol.


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## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

All dressed up with no place to go, and wearing the clothes uncomfortably. I don't think it adds a thing to the genre, or any other pop genre, for that matter. The 'orchestral' material is often the most Hollywood bombast of cliches, ala Yanni, i.e. cheap and common (overly used) effects, predictable Crescendi, etc.

A lot of pop music is a handful of players, and no matter how loud, or 'epic' it is a type of chamber music. Inflating it to the larger scale ensemble makes it seem -- inflated, bent out of shape and proportion. The basic material is suited to a chamber ensemble. Good ideas for a symphonic ensemble are born to fit using a symphonic ensemble.

So, less than interesting, a superficial effect dressing up either something weak, or which had greater strength in its original format.

It is probably also a passing fad, UNLESS someone brilliant comes up with something more extended, longer running, with longer-breathed and phrased ideas which Needs a Symphonic ensemble to fully express the idea.

Right now, it is a costume dropped on a mannequin.


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## Katt (May 9, 2012)

Stargazer said:


> Well my only exposure to the particular genre is from the ones you posted, but I really am not a fan from those. The first two had a few nice moments, but then some crazy person starts yelling inaudibly into the microphone lol, it scared me . The third one actually wasn't bad at all, but still not really my cup of tea. Then again I've never been a fan of the metal genre as a whole, I find a lot of it seems to focus on making as much noise and playing as many notes as fast as possibly...in addition to the strange screaming stuff lol.


They're called death grunts and these kinds of vocals are prominent in Death Metal. Epica in particular likes to incorporate influence from many metal genres. I know they're pretty harsh for someone not used to the genre.


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## redrobin (May 26, 2012)

I used to have Malmsteen's Electric Guitar Symphony. It seemed awkward and forced. Some of the movements also sounded out of place, like they were recorded in a different studio years apart. Anyway, there's only so much of Malmsteen's playing one can digest in the course of a night. How should I say - too many notes?


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I have a couple of Nightwish DVD's ....I like them!


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## Xaltotun (Sep 3, 2010)

I have about 500-700 metal CD's and LP's (although I don't really listen to them anymore, I'm all about classical music these days), and this is the single sub-genre of metal that isn't represented therein. Since you asked for honest opinions, I must say that I can't stand symphonic metal at all; I agree with regressivetransphobe about the caveman approach. But to each his own, of course!


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## Chrythes (Oct 13, 2011)

I don't like it as well. Agree with transphobe and PetrB. 
But then again, the only metal I listened to and enjoyed was Opeth - great vocals and even though their stuff isn't hard to digest it doesn't get into cliches and other banalities. And Orphaned Land - it's on the verge of Heavy Pop-Metal but since their music includes Jewish-Arabic or essentially Middle eastern motifs it has a sentimental value for me.


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## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Basil Poledouris has a lot to answer for.


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## Iforgotmypassword (May 16, 2011)

Chrythes said:


> I don't like it as well. Agree with transphobe and PetrB.
> But then again, the only metal I listened to and enjoyed was Opeth - great vocals and even though their stuff isn't hard to digest it doesn't get into cliches and other banalities. And Orphaned Land - it's on the verge of Heavy Pop-Metal but since their music includes Jewish-Arabic or essentially Middle eastern motifs it has a sentimental value for me.


I just wanted to give you an internet five for mentioning Opeth.









(Click to enlarge)


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Iforgotmypassword said:


> I just wanted to give you an internet five for mentioning Opeth.
> 
> View attachment 5471
> 
> ...


Me too. Three-way high five for Opeth fans.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Anyway, I did listen to a little bit of each of the videos. I thought it was mostly kind of cheesy sounding, very Hollywood-ish. I felt like I should be watching a Pirates of the Carrebian movie or something. I thought both the orchestration and harmonic progressions were quite boring and mundane...they needed some chord extensions like minor 9ths or #11s. I think it comes across as painfully obvious that these guys don't really understand the artistry of writing for orchestra in an effective and nuanced way. Sorry dude!  Maybe next time.

I DID think the beginning of the second video was pretty/eerie though! That was nice.


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## LordBlackudder (Nov 13, 2010)

i think it all sounds the same and its boring.


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## Iforgotmypassword (May 16, 2011)

Sorry to rain on your parade there buddy


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

I really enjoy symphonic metal personally. The death grunts/vocals aren't present in all of the bands either. I will tolerate them here and there, but in general don't care for much of them. My favorite symphonic metal music employs them sparsely or not at all.

Within Temptation and Delain are two of my favorite symphonic metal bands....I can see how some might find Delain's music formulaic, but I don't mind. Within Temptation's last album was quite poppy but their previous ones weren't. I love Epica's ballads, but the male singers growls are not to my taste at all. 

There are some Nightwish songs that I really love: Two for Tragedy, Forever Moments (which I think was actually just a demo not released until later. IMO it's one of their best though!). Creek Mary's Blood. I find these songs more enjoyable than their heavy songs.

Groups with predominantly male vocals: Serenity's third album was fantastic, and Kamelot has a couple that are really good.


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## Metalkitsune (Jul 11, 2011)

I like their earlier stuff too. It seems when Tarja was in the band they seemed more opera themed,but when Annette joined,they became more pop themed.


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## Dark Symphony (Apr 24, 2011)

I think bands like Cor Scorpii are more symphonic.


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## Theclassicalconspiracy (Feb 15, 2014)

Nightwish was the first band I listened to when I got into symphonic metal, which is now my favorite genre to listen to next to classical music! I've been obsessed over epica lately, and I think you should listen to stabat mater dolorosa from their 10th anniversary show retrospect. The song is by pergolesi but the cool thingies that guest singing with simone is floor jansen, a veteran in the symphonic metal community, who is actually the new sing for nightwish!


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

PetrB said:


> All dressed up with no place to go, and wearing the clothes uncomfortably. I don't think it adds a thing to the genre, or any other pop genre, for that matter. The 'orchestral' material is often the most Hollywood bombast of cliches, ala Yanni, i.e. cheap and common (overly used) effects, predictable Crescendi, etc.
> 
> A lot of pop music is a handful of players, and no matter how loud, or 'epic' it is a type of chamber music. Inflating it to the larger scale ensemble makes it seem -- inflated, bent out of shape and proportion. The basic material is suited to a chamber ensemble. Good ideas for a symphonic ensemble are born to fit using a symphonic ensemble.
> 
> ...


Spot on. To each his own but this so called 'symphonic metal' leaves me cold... It's just boring and sad. Is this considered 'edgy' in rock circles? What I find sad is that these 'artists' probably devote a lot of time to these 'compositions' but there's just nothing there. OK, I'll stop ranting now.


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## OboeKnight (Jan 25, 2013)

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE SYMPHONIC METAL. AHHHHH. It is definitely my favorite genre besides classical. Nightwish, Within Temptation (old), Xandria, Pythia, Epica...I can't get enough. The vocalists in most of these bands are really incredible. Tarja Turunen is probably the most commonly known symphonic metal singer. She fronted Nightwish for years before she was kicked out. Beautiful voice. Her solo career has really shined since she left the band. Anyway, I just love it. Melodies are what catches my attention most in music, and most symphonic metal bands are highly melodic. The style just works for me. I really don't care for the growling vocals in some songs, (mostly in Epica's music) but I can tolerate it because the rest is so great. I really wish the genre had more of a presence in the US.


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## Simon Moon (Oct 10, 2013)

regressivetransphobe said:


> What I mean is to me, a lot of it feels like your usual verse/chorus stuff backed up with symphonic accents. Nightwish are the main offenders, and I've heard plenty of clone bands with the same issue.
> Formulaic music isn't _necessarily_ bad--it's all about how you use the language you choose, no matter how simple--but post-95 (or so) metal in general rubs me wrong. Paradoxically, I think the genre had a more sophisticated sense of songcraft and development when it was uglier and more acoustic. The relation between riffs really meant something.
> Anyway, that's my two cents





PetrB said:


> All dressed up with no place to go, and wearing the clothes uncomfortably. I don't think it adds a thing to the genre, or any other pop genre, for that matter. The 'orchestral' material is often the most Hollywood bombast of cliches, ala Yanni, i.e. cheap and common (overly used) effects, predictable Crescendi, etc.
> 
> A lot of pop music is a handful of players, and no matter how loud, or 'epic' it is a type of chamber music. Inflating it to the larger scale ensemble makes it seem -- inflated, bent out of shape and proportion. The basic material is suited to a chamber ensemble. Good ideas for a symphonic ensemble are born to fit using a symphonic ensemble.
> 
> ...


These both describe my feeling about it, also.

And I'm a big metal fan. But all the symphonic metal I've heard (and I've heard many bands) is nothing more than pretty standard metal, with over-the-top symphonic sounding keyboard passages, and (usually) very attractive female vocalists with trained voices. The symphonic aspect is a thin veneer over the top of some pretty standard song structures. It's not at all unpleasant, there's just no substance to back up the bombast.

I listen to quite a bit of progressive-metal, and some of it has symphonic keys. But if you subtracted the symph sounding keys and replaced them with piano, you'd still be left with some incredibly well played, technically difficult, complex music with dynamics, more subtlety and some varying emotional content.

With these symphonic metal bands, you take away the symp keys, and you are left with some pretty mundane metal.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Can you recommend some metal bands that aren't creatively bankrupt? I used to be a metal fan myself but once I discovered classical/art music, metal just seemed dull and antiquated.


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## Richannes Wrahms (Jan 6, 2014)

I sort of disappoints me, one would expect more than just the "background violins" typical of film music. Bruckner's brass chorales seem more "metal" in comparison.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

It's not so bad, definitely a genre I kind of ignored when I was deep into Metal. From Death, Black, Progressive.... I've pretty much heard it all. I do get the appeal, but when I feel the need to hop on the back of a dragon I usually go with a band like Moonsorrow - some gritty Black/Pagan Metal.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2014)

I'm not 100% sure I would even consider Nightwish to be a metal band.


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## Blake (Nov 6, 2013)

I do enjoy some Kamelot, I must admit. Although it's more Melodic/Power… same thing, I guess? I don't know. Still, when I'm feeling epic it's pretty rad.


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