# Hymns



## millionrainbows

This is a hymn I've learned on the keyboard. There are some interesting things going on.

Note in mm.2 the bass notes on the word "Jesus," which makes it effective and resonant. Measures 7 an 8, which end each verse, are particularly rich and resonant voicings.

Note on the word "pain" the first-inversion C chord.

On the bridge, "Oh what peace" is a diminished chord.

Admittedly, there is an element of "corny" in some hymns and their stylings, but overall, I get a sense of honest simplicity and sincerity. They seem to embody "family values" and sincere belief, in times where death and disease were much more common.


----------



## science

Most hymns are arranged into fairly decent 4-part harmony. 

I'm not sure that anything is "family" about it, but it certainly reminds me of the old wooden churches I grew up in on the prairie!

You have any insight into all the seconds used in contemporary Christian music? Where did that come from?


----------



## david johnson

I have known and lead that selection for many years.


----------



## Guest

millionrainbows said:


> This is a hymn I've learned on the keyboard. There are some interesting things going on.
> 
> Note in mm.2 the bass notes on the word "Jesus," which makes it effective and resonant. Measures 7 an 8, which end each verse, are particularly rich and resonant voicings.
> 
> Note on the word "pain" the first-inversion C chord.
> 
> On the bridge, "Oh what peace" is a diminished chord.
> 
> Admittedly, there is an element of "corny" in some hymns and their stylings, but overall, I get a sense of honest simplicity and sincerity. They seem to embody "family values" and sincere belief, in times where death and disease were much more common.


In my church we have a different hymn that uses the same tune. Such is the case with most hymns. For many years, people would just have the words, and would sing them with any appropriate tune. Interesting fact, the tune used for the Star-spangled banner used to be for, among other things, a bar song.

As hymns go, I have always really enjoyed "Come Thou Font of Every Blessing." I have a wonderful recording by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. And then I have always loved their recording of the Battle Hymn of the Republic.


----------



## starthrower

I remember enduring this stuff in quiet desperation as a child. I never really expressed my aversion to this type of music, it was all internal. My grandmother liked How Great Thou Art, and I remember hearing it at her funeral service. So I have a soft spot for that one.

But as million mentioned, when many of these hymns were written in the 19th century, death and loss were always near, and all too commonly experienced in the age before modern medicine.


----------



## Guest

starthrower said:


> I remember enduring this stuff in quiet desperation as a child. I never really expressed my aversion to this type of music, it was all internal. My grandmother liked How Great Thou Art, and I remember hearing it at her funeral service. So I have a soft spot for that one.
> 
> But as million mentioned, when many of these hymns were written in the 19th century, death and loss were always near, and all too commonly experienced in the age before modern medicine.


As a regular church attendee, who sings three hymns each Sunday, I think it is kind of narrow to view these hymns in terms of death and suffering. Usually the message is the Atonement and redemption. Often when they talk of death, it is either spiritual death or the sacrifice of Jesus. But there are often messages of rejoicing and jubilation.

There are many different themes for hymns, and they are usually selected based on the occasion.


----------



## starthrower

I wasn't implying that every hymn was inspired by death and grief. I mentioned How Great Thou Art, which is obviously a hymn of praise and worship.


----------



## SuperTonic

My parents are not really very relgious so attending church services was a rarity for me growing up. We did, however, go to church occaissionally when visiting other family members who were religious. The only part of the services I actually enjoyed as a kid was singing from the hymnal. As I got older and more musically literate I would challeng myself by trying to sing one of the inner voices or bass line instead of the melody. I would usually get some wierd looks from people around me when I did that.


----------



## Guest

SuperTonic said:


> My parents are not really very relgious so attending church services was a rarity for me growing up. We did, however, go to church occaissionally when visiting other family members who were religious. The only part of the services I actually enjoyed as a kid was singing from the hymnal. As I got older and more musically literate I would challeng myself by trying to sing one of the inner voices or bass line instead of the melody. I would usually get some wierd looks from people around me when I did that.


I always enjoy the hymns. We typically have organ accompaniment, unless our organist is out, in which case we have piano. When I was younger, I first thought singing the melody an octave lower was singing the bass line. Then I learned to read the bass and tenor lines. My voice is more a baritone.


----------



## science

starthrower said:


> I remember enduring this stuff in quiet desperation as a child. I never really expressed my aversion to this type of music, it was all internal. My grandmother liked How Great Thou Art, and I remember hearing it at her funeral service. So I have a soft spot for that one.
> 
> But as million mentioned, when many of these hymns were written in the 19th century, death and loss were always near, and all too commonly experienced in the age before modern medicine.


I think that personal experience is the key. I can still remember hearing my biological father, who died when I was 7, sing hymns like _The Old Rugged Cross_, _In the Sweet By and By_, and _It is Well With My Soul_. I will die before those songs lose their sweetness to me. Some of them are really profound too, with a spirituality of sacrifice and endurance that is all but lost in our contemporary gospels of positive thinking.

One thing to think about when we hear American hymns from the 2nd part of the nineteenth century is that the whole country was in mourning after the Civil War. It was a private mourning on the whole, borne much more quietly than we would do today, but in some of these songs we might hear a generation of widows and orphans working out its grief.


----------



## science

Also, some things for music lovers to consider - 

Grant Green's Feelin' the Spirit

Charlie Haden and Hank Jones' Steal Away


----------



## millionrainbows

science said:


> Also, some things for music lovers to consider -
> 
> Grant Green's Feelin' the Spirit
> 
> Charlie Haden and Hank Jones' Steal Away


How about this one:


----------



## millionrainbows

*The "Great Awakening"* of the 1730s and 40s, in the newly-founded American colonies, was an important turning point in religion in America. Not a unified movement, but led by individual ministers, it was a spontaneous dissention from the rigid civil _and_ religious traditions of their forebears.
In place of the Latin music of the Church of England, the Puritans adopted the Calvinist psalms of France and Holland. They were sung to tunes based on European secular folk tunes. The first book they used was The Ainsworth Psalter, which had hymns we still use today, such as The Old Hundredth.
This type of psalm singing persisted for a time, then in England, Isaac Watts broke away and began and wrote hymns which were called "man-made," instead of being literal renditions of the psalms. These were considered daring, but gained popularity in America.
At this same time, many Germans were immigrating to America, and brought with them very singable church music popularized in Germany by Martin Luther. These were based on German folk music, and contained many examples of the "man-made" hymn.
Thus, with the Great Awakening, the folk hymn, which sprang from the people like the ballad and folk song, came into being.

Thus we see* sacred music* as emanating directly from the sacred awareness and spiritual expression of the individual man, in dissent against rigid ideologies of The Church. This is American as apple pie; this is our heritage, this is our religious and spiritual inheritance, this is our living legacy.

With this in mind, I'm surprised at the many protests and arguments that I seem to have started here in this forum, by those who seem to disparage the idea of religious freedom and dissent from rigid ideology as being somehow "maverick" or tainted by some notion of Eastern spirituality or even the occult.

We are all Americans, and let us not forget our heritage, which is largely based on civil and religious dissent.


----------



## millionrainbows

_*Get it? Thelonious Monk/William H. Monk*_


----------



## millionrainbows

Speaking of William H. Monk, here's a *shoutout to violadude,* who once mentioned sing this song in a choir.

He's a good boy!


----------



## Taggart

millionrainbows said:


> <snip>
> Thus, with the Great Awakening, the folk hymn, which sprang from the people like the ballad and folk song, came into being.
> 
> Thus we see* sacred music* as emanating directly from the sacred awareness and spiritual expression of the individual man, in dissent against rigid ideologies of The Church. This is American as apple pie; this is our heritage, this is our religious and spiritual inheritance, this is our living legacy.
> 
> <snip>


I have a (very old and tattered) copy of Sankey's Sacred Songs and Solos which is one of the standard texts of the 19th century revival movement. It includes a whole range of hymns from Isaac Watts' _Am I a Soldier of the Cross_ with music by Purcell to _Shall We Gather at the River_ or _O Happy Day_ (remember The Edwin Hawkins Singers?) There are some which have been parodied - _The Sweet By and By_ became Joe Hill's _Pie in the Sky_, _My God I have Found_ aka _Revive me Again_ to an "English Air" became the wobbly anthem _Hallelujah, I'm a Bum_ (although wiki fails to mention the version in Carl Sandburg) Sankey's book is basically a standard hymnal for use at concerts and revival meetings.

The other main pillar of American hymn singing is much more "folksy" and that is Sacred Harp. Although they're still sing Watts and Newton and Wesley, they're singing them to folk tunes. The article on Sacred Harp Hymn writers has more detail. The camp meeting style might also use "lining out" to counter either the absence of books or the inability of the congregation to read them. This is a mainly Scottish practice, still found in evidence in the Gaelic psalms of Lewis and among certain African American congregations.


----------



## millionrainbows

Great info, Taggart. This tradition seems to uncover our common heritage in a deep way. We are brothers. And, yes, I remember the Edwin Hawkins singers very well, and have that recording. Here's another song from Melanie, and Englishman Robert Fripp supervised the reissue of some of her recordings in remastered form.


----------



## Taggart

There was an earlier thread last year - http://www.talkclassical.com/28140-your-hymnal.html - about classical hymn tunes which is worth re-reading. Some of the YT links have died. I notice my tattered copy of Sankey makes an appearance, together with some folk treatments of hymns and the inevitable Gaelic psalm singing. Even so, if you are interested, it's a fascinating thread.


----------



## millionrainbows

Thanks, Taggart. It's all good info.

Right now I'm working on _Abide With Me. _It's in Eb, so it's a challenge for me in the fingering. I'll get it, though.


----------



## Taggart

What my teacher said about hymns, and other four part harmony, is that it's not very "pianistic" - it's written to be sung not for the piano. That means that you shouldn't worry too much about fingering and use the pedal to hold one chord while you find the next. The other "problem" is making sure that the melody line is standing out from the harmonies. It's a bit like those exercises where you play a triad chord progression emphasizing first the top note then the middle note then the bottom note.


----------



## millionrainbows

Okay Taggart, duly noted. They are not pianistic? No wonder they're difficult.


----------



## hreichgott

There is often a wide gap between bass and tenor parts which makes hymns difficult to play with only 2 hands unless you are a giant. Often organists put the bass part in the pedals, alto and tenor in LH on one manual, and soprano in RH on another manual.


----------



## millionrainbows

Well, I'm reading from a Baptist hymnal, and all the hymns are written in 2-stave piano style. There's no alto clef or anything like that. I haven't run into any insurmountable problems yet. 

I'm seeing a logic in the movement of voices. Often, the bass remains stationary while the tenor moves up or down by step. If not "pianistic," these hymns certainly make musical sense, and I think they are good for any pianist's technique.


----------



## Taggart

millionrainbows said:


> Well, I'm reading from a Baptist hymnal, and all the hymns are written in 2-stave piano style. There's no alto clef or anything like that. I haven't run into any insurmountable problems yet.
> 
> I'm seeing a logic in the movement of voices. Often, the bass remains stationary while the tenor moves up or down by step. If not "pianistic," these hymns certainly make musical sense, and I think they are good for any pianist's technique.


Umm, @hreichgott was referring to the "standard" designations of the four voices - Soprano - top line RH; Alto - bottom line RH; Tenor top line LH; Bass- bottom line LH. You will sometimes find these written on four separate staves for the singers (oh and they don't always sound as written but can be an octave out watch out for a tenor G3 clef with an 8 to indicate the octave shift) but the piano compresses them to two staves- Right and Left hand; and the organ to three - Right hand, Left hand and pedals.

One problem with _Abide with Me_ is in bar 10 where the LH chord is a 14th - G to E (above middle C) followed by a passing note of D. The simplest way is to play the E in the RH and then go down to the D still in the right hand. You get a similar proble in bar 15 where you've got a 10th A to C where it may be easier to play the C with the RH.

There's a fair amount of theory in choral scoring and reduction to the grand stave.

Never mind all that, I hope you're enjoying playing the hymns. There are some lovely tunes there. Good luck with your playing!


----------



## hreichgott

Taggart said:


> Umm, @hreichgott was referring to the "standard" designations of the four voices - Soprano - top line RH; Alto - bottom line RH; Tenor top line LH; Bass- bottom line LH.


Yes, sorry for not being clear. You'll notice that there are always 2 notes sounding at once in treble clef and 2 notes sounding at once in the bass clef. What I meant was, an organist will look at the bass clef, play the lower note with the pedals and the upper note with the LH. Then in the treble clef, the lower note gets added to the LH and the upper note is played RH.

Organists do not need to rewrite it all on separate sheets of paper with 3 staves because they are very smart. I am in awe of proper organists.


----------



## Taggart

hreichgott said:


> Yes, sorry for not being clear. You'll notice that there are always 2 notes sounding at once in treble clef and 2 notes sounding at once in the bass clef.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Organists do not need to rewrite it all on separate sheets of paper with 3 staves because they are very smart. I am in awe of proper organists.


You will also note that where there only three notes, the single note will have two sticks to indicate that it is being sung by two different voice types. That's another advantage of a multi manual organ, you can play both notes - one on each manual - and add separate effects to each. *Very *clever these organists!


----------



## millionrainbows

"Abide With Me" seems to be a popular hymn to play if someone has died. On that new Ken Burns series on The Roosevelts (PBS), I've heard it twice already, always when somebody has died.

That Ken Burns series has several instances of an interesting "updated" context for the use of hymns. Maybe we are not so anachronistic in our continued interest in hymns. They are very effective in evoking feelings of history, especially American history.


----------



## millionrainbows

Taggart said:


> One problem with _Abide with Me_ is in bar 10 where the LH chord is a 14th - G to E (above middle C) followed by a passing note of D. The simplest way is to play the E in the RH and then go down to the D still in the right hand. You get a similar problem in bar 15 where you've got a 10th A to C where it may be easier to play the C with the RH.


Thanks for the warning! As I said, I've just started working on this one.


----------



## Krummhorn

hreichgott said:


> . . . Organists do not need to rewrite it all on separate sheets of paper with 3 staves because they are very smart. I am in awe of proper organists.





Taggart said:


> . . . another advantage of a multi manual organ, you can play both notes - one on each manual - and add separate effects to each. *Very *clever these organists!


We are clever ... we are also klutzes at times. One variation of this hymn is to play the bass/tenor with the left hand (with the right hand assisting where it can with the tenor line) and the right hand playing only the alto line. Take the c.f. with the pedals. With one 16' flues in the manual along with softer strings and a light 4' flute, the result is phenomenal. Both hands on same manual.

I do an entire medley of hymns for funerals ... 40 minutes worth when required ... I have a list of titles, then play each one several times modulating between key signatures as I go.


----------



## millionrainbows

I agree; organists are probably the most intelligent people on the planet.

Oh, good news: I've been trying to read these hymns from a small hymnal, and it's hard to read. So I was in Goodwill and found a big, spiral-bound hymnal in a binder, which opens up flat. It's much bigger print. It looks like the kind of thing that a music director would use. It is very nice, and was only four dollars. I couldn't resist.


----------



## drpraetorus

In my college theory classes, one of the thing we did was to analyze the hymns looking for chord progressions, voice leading etc. Most of them are written using the Common Practice or "Bach" rules. Some more interestingly than others. Common practice voice leading allows for more than an octave between the Bass and Tenor lines. That's where the organ pedal comes in handy. The dullest, from a musical standpoint are the I,IV,V, V7, I progressions. But they are the easiest for the keyboardist to embellish and mess with. You should see some of the looks I get when I play a Major song on a minor key.


----------



## millionrainbows

drpraetorus said:


> In my college theory classes, one of the thing we did was to analyze the hymns looking for chord progressions, voice leading etc. Most of them are written using the Common Practice or "Bach" rules. Some more interestingly than others. Common practice voice leading allows for more than an octave between the Bass and Tenor lines. That's where the organ pedal comes in handy. The dullest, from a musical standpoint are the I,IV,V, V7, I progressions. But they are the easiest for the keyboardist to embellish and mess with. You should see some of the looks I get when I play a Major song on a minor key.


Yes, that's why I'm interested in them, to get good practical lessons in voice movement.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

I keep getting the tune "Hyfrydol" stuck in my head.


----------



## drpraetorus

MoonlightSonata said:


> I keep getting the tune "Hyfrydol" stuck in my head.


You couldn't find a better tune to get stuck there. It is a beautiful tune.


----------



## MoonlightSonata

It certainly is. Very versatile, too.


----------



## PetrB

From Greenland's Icy Mountains -- Known to me only by and through Charles Ives' use of it in his Symphony No. 4, the third movement fugue.

From Greenland's Icy Mountains ~ a vintage recording, choir and organ ground...





Ives ~ Symphony No. 4 - III. Fugue: Andante moderato


----------



## Ingélou

Here's a fabulous psalm that I just came across by chance on YouTube. It gives me gooseflesh:


----------



## TxllxT

millionrainbows said:


> *The "Great Awakening"* of the 1730s and 40s, in the newly-founded American colonies, was an important turning point in religion in America. Not a unified movement, but led by individual ministers, it was a spontaneous dissention from the rigid civil _and_ religious traditions of their forebears.
> In place of the Latin music of the Church of England, the Puritans adopted the Calvinist psalms of France and Holland. They were sung to tunes based on European secular folk tunes. The first book they used was The Ainsworth Psalter, which had hymns we still use today, such as The Old Hundredth.
> This type of psalm singing persisted for a time, then in England, Isaac Watts broke away and began and wrote hymns which were called "man-made," instead of being literal renditions of the psalms. These were considered daring, but gained popularity in America.
> At this same time, many Germans were immigrating to America, and brought with them very singable church music popularized in Germany by Martin Luther. These were based on German folk music, and contained many examples of the "man-made" hymn.
> Thus, with the Great Awakening, the folk hymn, which sprang from the people like the ballad and folk song, came into being.
> 
> Thus we see* sacred music* as emanating directly from the sacred awareness and spiritual expression of the individual man, in dissent against rigid ideologies of The Church. This is American as apple pie; this is our heritage, this is our religious and spiritual inheritance, this is our living legacy.
> 
> With this in mind, I'm surprised at the many protests and arguments that I seem to have started here in this forum, by those who seem to disparage the idea of religious freedom and dissent from rigid ideology as being somehow "maverick" or tainted by some notion of Eastern spirituality or even the occult.
> 
> We are all Americans, and let us not forget our heritage, which is largely based on civil and religious dissent.


The "Great Awakening" in Holland took place in the 16th century Renaissance/Reformation with the Bible becoming readable in Dutch and the singing in the churches becoming Dutch. In comparison with overseas however I notice one enormous difference. In 1492 the Jews were expelled from Spain and Portugal. Holland was the free haven that took them up. This influx also influenced the Dutch in their faith & singing. Theologians learned Hebrew from the Rabbis. In Holland orthodox Protestantism welcomed the psalms (on melodies from Geneva) and a few hymns(- that were directly based on New Testament texts  Maria's Magnificat, Zachariah's & Simeon's song) -) in their church services, but all other hymns were forbidden. Hymns with a personal, pietistic reflection of faith were allowed & encouraged to be sung at home. I suspect that this exclusion from hymns to be sung during Dutch church services has its origin in Jewish learning. This influence was not present within the English speaking Protestant communities overseas, nor within the German speaking Lutheran communities on the east from the Dutch republic of seven provinces. In fact for centuries it used to be typically Dutch to be attached to the 150 psalms set on Geneva melodies, while the English & German speaking Protestants have their heart string connected to their hymnals (with, alas, few psalms). Nowadays the Calvinist dike has broken and all lovely hymns are being sung in most Dutch churches.


----------



## Taggart

The Scottish Presbyterian tradition had a similar approach. The first Scottish Psalter of 1564 was based on the Genevan Psalter without the ten commandments, the Song of Simeon (Nunc Dimitis) and the Apostles' Creed (all used in early Calvinist worship). This was gradually updated to include the complete Psalter.

The second, metrical Psalter was published by the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1650 following revisions to the text of Francis Rous an English puritan in the interests of authentic translation. This was followed in 1658 by the start of the Gaelic psalter.

The English puritans also followed the Calvinist tradition of singing only psalms and this is noted in Shakespeare's Winter Tale where we have "one puritan amongst them, and he sings psalms to hornpipes."

Probably the most famous tune to come out of the Genevan Psalter is Loys Bourgeois' setting of Psalm 134 - better known through Kethe's paraphrase of Psalm 100 - hence Old Hundredth.


----------



## SixFootScowl

DrMike said:


> In my church we have a different hymn that uses the same tune. Such is the case with most hymns. For many years, people would just have the words, and would sing them with any appropriate tune.


I have an old Lutheran hymn book that has no music, just the words. The 1941 Lutheran Hymnal, which has the music, includes an index of tunes showing what hymns share the same tune.


----------



## TxllxT

Taggart said:


> The Scottish Presbyterian tradition had a similar approach. The first Scottish Psalter of 1564 was based on the Genevan Psalter without the ten commandments, the Song of Simeon (Nunc Dimitis) and the Apostles' Creed (all used in early Calvinist worship). This was gradually updated to include the complete Psalter.
> 
> The second, metrical Psalter was published by the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1650 following revisions to the text of Francis Rous an English puritan in the interests of authentic translation. This was followed in 1658 by the start of the Gaelic psalter.
> 
> The English puritans also followed the Calvinist tradition of singing only psalms and this is noted in Shakespeare's Winter Tale where we have "one puritan amongst them, and he sings psalms to hornpipes."
> 
> Probably the most famous tune to come out of the Genevan Psalter is Loys Bourgeois' setting of Psalm 134 - better known through Kethe's paraphrase of Psalm 100 - hence Old Hundredth.


Psalm 42 is the most well known psalm in Holland - spoiler: gooseflesh!!!!:


----------



## DavidA

The general purpose of the first hymns was to teach people who could not read or write the truths of then gospel in an easily assimilated form. Many of them were set to popular tunes of the day. Hence the ex-slaver John Newton wrote his hymns not to be sung in church but by the common people in the pub and the home. It is worth noting that only twenty-one of the nearly 150 words used in all six verses of Newton's best known hymn, Amazing Grace, have more than one syllable. It is a masterpiece of communication to the common man!


----------



## heatedbonfire

This is one of my favorites.


----------



## millionrainbows

That's a good one, heatedbonfire. It's barber's Adagio in choral form.


----------



## frankdavid

*Any comments about the 4-harmony Hymns by JS Bach?*

Do you have any personal comments about the 4-harmony Hymns of JS Bach?
Have anybody played Bach's Chorales?


----------



## SixFootScowl

Hymn: The World is Very Evil.

Lyrics

Tune


----------



## MoatsArt

frankdavid said:


> Do you have any personal comments about the 4-harmony Hymns of JS Bach?
> Have anybody played Bach's Chorales?


I have a collection of Bach's harmonisation of chorale tunes edited by Riemenshneider. When I was at Uni we spent a couple of years learning how to write music using functional tonality. About a year of it was spent on Bach's style. Palestrina (as taught by Fux) was studied for voice leading and counterpoint. This stuff is foundational to the Western tradition up to Mahler.

Anyway, I spent a period of time doing harmonic analyses of the Bach harmonisations for fun.

A few general observations:

1. At cadences Bach would often slow the rate of harmonic change, but increase the movement within parts using lots of non-harmonic notes (passing notes, neighbours etc)

2. A number of the chorale tunes in the Lutheran Tradition were modal, rather than in the "major/minor" system, one example being "O, Haupt voll Blut und Wunden" ("O Sacred Head Now Wounded") used by Bach in his setting of St Matthew Passion. In harmonising these he would change the tonality to suit contemporary taste, but retain the modal form of the tune. A smart man.

3. All the harmonisations are based on the chord progression I-ii6-V-I (where "6" is a first inversion triad), expanded in a seemingly infinite array of beautiful simplicity.

4. The harmonisations can be seen as a condensation of the harmonic practice he and the composers of his time adopted in more complex genres. This would be analogous to poetry being a condensation of expression by language.

Traditional hymn tunes contain some of the simplest examples of this style of harmony, with a huge debt to Bach. And Bach owed a huge debt to others....

In any case, I have started learning the pipe organ (was a trumpet player at Uni). I find it particularly challenging, but rewarding to play the bass line in the pedals, the inner parts (alto and tenor) in the left hand on one manual and the soprano line with the right hand on another manual. The stops used to play the inner parts should be softer than the stops used for the melody. This method of playing is a beautiful reflection of the texture of the works and the relative significance of each line. It also assists singers in a choir as each part is more easily distinguishable from the others than if one were to play all four parts on a single manual.

Enough of my rambling. Back to you Frank.


----------



## hreichgott

Florestan said:


> Hymn: The World is Very Evil.
> 
> Lyrics
> 
> Tune


It has 14 verses!! I'm going to mention this one the next time someone tries to get me to skip a verse from a 4-verse hymn.


----------



## millionrainbows

Is "The Ash Grove" a hymn?

No, but it has been used, as a folk song, to create a hymn. From WIK:

The tune of "The Ash Grove" is used for the hymn *"Let All Things Now Living"* in 1939 by composer Katherine K. Davis. This hymnal version resulted in it being included on a number of Christmas albums up through the 1950s; like Jan August's 1955 album "Christmas Favorites" (Mercury Records #MG 20160). It was in use as a hymn long before the 20th century under the title "The Master Hath Come" by Sarah Doudney (1871) and has been updated since in a retelling of the nativity by Robert Cullinan as "On This Night, Most Holy" (1996).

Another hymn set to the tune of the Ash Grove is *"Sent Forth by God's Blessing"*
Roger Quilter's setting of the song was included in the _Arnold Book of Old Songs_, published in 1950.
Around 1962 another song called "The Irish Free State" was written to this tune.
Early in John Ford's film _How Green Was My Valley_, adapted from Richard Llewellyn's 1939 novel of the same name, "The Ash Grove" was sung in Welsh by a group of miners.
"The Ash Grove" featured in the 1980 BBC mini-series _Pride and Prejudice_. The tune is also featured in _Black & White_, a 2001 video game by Lionhead Studios; the lyrics are altered according to the game's plot.
Ed Pearl's Ash Grove folk music club at 8162 Melrose Avenue in Los Angeles was named after the song. The Ash Grove opened in 1958 and closed in 1973. The Greenbriar Boys, Lightnin' Hopkins, Mississippi John Hurt, Doc Watson, Ry Cooder and many others performed there.


----------



## MoatsArt

Fun challenge: What are the defining characteristics of a hymn? (No cheating! Don't look up a definition prior to answering)


----------



## millionrainbows

MoatsArt said:


> Fun challenge: What are the defining characteristics of a hymn? (No cheating! Don't look up a definition prior to answering)


It's tonal! That's one.


----------



## Taggart

millionrainbows said:


> It's tonal! That's one.


Umm - what about the modal folk tunes or plain chant hymns like _Pange Lingua_ or _Veni Creator Spiritus_? Or even some of the Byzantine or Mozarabic stuff.


----------



## SixFootScowl

MoatsArt said:


> Fun challenge: What are the defining characteristics of a hymn? (No cheating! Don't look up a definition prior to answering)


I am sure this is wrong, but for me, the defining characteristic of a hymn (assuming in my naivete on this topic that all hymns are church oriented) is that it it on a Biblical topic and the presence of organ music. Or course the church I now attend is using piano for the hymns and, if someone is available to do it, guitar. So I guess the musical instrument has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Proms Fanatic

MoatsArt said:


> Fun challenge: What are the defining characteristics of a hymn? (No cheating! Don't look up a definition prior to answering)


A religious song designed to be sung by the congregation in church.


----------



## MoatsArt

I believe that Christian hymns have the following characteristics:

1. A Biblically based text
2. A strophic structure
3. A predominantly homophonic texture
4. Traditionally but not necessarily, four part vocal harmony
5. Harmonically, based on the tradition of functional tonality

I think that characteristics one to three are essential to hymns by definition, and that, arguably, points four and five are traditional characteristics, being more descriptive than prescriptive. 

That said, I challenge you to find a hymn in a traditional nineteenth century hymn book (not including chant, an example being Sankey's) that fails to conform to the five listed characteristics. Happy to be proven wrong, in which case I will need to go back to the drawing board.


----------



## Chipomarc

Someone once said, `Hymnus est laus Dei cum cantico; canticum autem exultatio mentis de aeternis habita, prorumpens in vocem.`


----------



## MoatsArt

Someone else once said, "Latin: It's all Greek to me".


----------



## MoatsArt

Another person said "Google Translate is my friend"


----------



## Taggart

MoatsArt said:


> Someone else once said, "Latin: It's all Greek to me".


That's when they were singing the _Kyrie Eleison_


----------



## hreichgott

The hymn and the tune are two separate entities.

A hymn is a text in verses with a consistent meter, for example 8.6.8.6, eight syllables in the first and third lines and six syllables in the second and fourth lines of each stanza.

In practice a hymn is "any text for singing with a consistent meter that isn't a psalm."

Hymn tunes can be taken from anywhere and applied to any hymn, as long as the meter is the same and the accents fall on the right syllables. The "Amazing Grace" hymn can be sung to any tune that has the 8.6.8.6 meter starting on an upbeat, including the theme to Gilligan's Island and House of the Rising Sun. But most hymns have one or two tunes that are traditionally associated with that hymn.
Many hymn tunes started life as folk tunes, political or national songs, classical pieces, or even drinking songs.

Many older hymnals saved space by only printing the words to most hymns. The tune was determined by congregational habit.








Modern hymnals usually print a tune, but often have footnotes indicating other tunes traditionally used with that hymn.


----------



## SixFootScowl

hreichgott said:


> The hymn and the tune are two separate entities.
> 
> A hymn is a text in verses with a consistent meter, for example 8.6.8.6, eight syllables in the first and third lines and six syllables in the second and fourth lines of each stanza.
> 
> In practice a hymn is "any text for singing with a consistent meter that isn't a psalm."
> 
> Hymn tunes can be taken from anywhere and applied to any hymn, as long as the meter is the same and the accents fall on the right syllables. The "Amazing Grace" hymn can be sung to any tune that has the 8.6.8.6 meter starting on an upbeat, including the theme to Gilligan's Island and House of the Rising Sun. But most hymns have one or two tunes that are traditionally associated with that hymn.
> Many hymn tunes started life as folk tunes, political or national songs, classical pieces, or even drinking songs.
> 
> Many older hymnals saved space by only printing the words to most hymns. The tune was determined by congregational habit.


I just tried singing the beginning of Amazing Grace to the theme from Gilligan's Island and House of the Rising Sun. :lol: Didn't get very far because I did not have the words in front of me.

We sang a hymn at church this morning that was to the tune of Cat Steven's Morning Has Broken. One thing for sure, I know the melody.

The 1941 Lutheran Hymnal that my family used for many years has a section in the back where it lists the meters and under that all the hymns with that meter. Often I could find more than one hymn in a select meter that had the same melody.

I have seen older Lutheran hymnals, small in size, maybe 3.5 by 5 inch at most, that had only the words.


----------



## millionrainbows

Taggart said:


> Umm - what about the modal folk tunes or plain chant hymns like _Pange Lingua_ or _Veni Creator Spiritus_? Or even some of the Byzantine or Mozarabic stuff.


I mean tonal in the sense of having a tone center (Harvard Dictionary of Music). Don't pull that on me again, Taggart.


----------

