# What the missing link between Gregorian & Ars Vetus, what in between these two era?



## deprofundis (Apr 25, 2014)

*What the missing link between Gregorian & Ars Vetus, what in between these two era?*

Well it's a complicated question, to answer this we most know when:

Gregorian officialy ended, what was the first Ars vetus troubadour.

Here my conclusion ars elaboratio or gregoriana= pseudo gregorian that is not quite gregorian and not quite ars vetus.

One of the earliest Gregoriana avant-garde, in the sense it'S not formated exclusively straighforward Gregorian, take for instance Fulbert de Chartes, this composer is ending gregorian debut of pseudo ars vetus, sound odd to me, another important name is Jaufre Rudel one of the very first minnesinger(troubadour).

But this ''zone tampon between gregorian and ars vetus troubadour is foggy, in a way we get anonymeous work more so than actual composer.

If the great composer Philippe de Vitry started Ars nova, whom started ars vetus and what was in between fading gregorian ending music and earliest state ars vetus, we may never know.

Perhaps lithurgic work rule in these earllly state ''zone tampon'' bbetween gregorian like the excellent Ludus Danielis or something like the album the earliest song book in england.

En français ma langue de facto, je dirrais que tout entre le Gregorien et les Ars Vetus reste anonyme chants lithurgique, mais surtout oeuvre lithurgiques et quelque motets.C'est une pérriode brumeuse, vaseuse dont même les musicologiste érudi(e)s ne savent pas grand chose,

I will translate this for the anglosphere talkers, In french my language de facto, Everything between Gregorian and ars Vetus time spam is anonymeous, all are about lithurgic work some motets, it's a foggy ,swampy era where musicologist even the ardent one dont know themselve.

So we most ask another question who were the last school of gregorian, an another who instaured ars vetus,, an one more what was in between the two , only Lithurgic works but different from Gregorian and more song oriented,more open to secularism in music starting.

Sometime it's hard to tell for a noobs, if composer like i.e Peter Abélard songs were Gregoriana or starting ars vetus, just like hildegard von Bingen we may never know.

Ars vetus did not come out of the blue, and gregorian fade away but eventualy we dont know when.

The only thing we know is the fact ars vetus start in the 11 century, all does i could be wrong and it could had started in late 10 century we will unfortunetly never know for sure, printing was not invented.

Here my hypotetical theory, Gregorian ending , the last school were in switzerland, than early ars vetus appear in germany ,france,england (corrected me if i'm wrong in my statement.

Than to know the birth of ars vetus we most know where the birth of secular song appear first, what about it folks.

Arss vetus and Trouvere composer might had appear before 11 century, therefore latee 10 century but we dont know a lot about , the following time spam , 950-1100.

If i know my classical of ancient lore, i would presume , what is called ars elaboratio or gregoriana is the missing link between , Gregorian and Ars vetus, because of the format were Gregorian was straightfoward vocal music, Gregoriana or ars elaboratio had it's share of musical instrument added to the mix, so it's a sub cathegory in between Gregorian and ars vetus, ok now seem logical,but in all of this we dont know and perhaps we will never know who instigated ars vetus, the first seccular post gregorian songs, how frustatring have a good night and a good year up a head.

To me since swisstzerland was close to germany, im almost 100 % sure german follow by france + england =avalon were the forerunner of the first starting ars vetus,we dont know enought because scrolls did not survive ,stone tablet are partial due to this early stage 10-11 century of turmoil and religieous war , crusade and islamic did not help preserve the music, so a lot of music was lost or even worst destroyed, the calamity and burden of war, people lose life, people lose precious music for christ sake , how foolish...

And these were my two cents on this subject, ok for the record alphonso X el Sabio and Adam de la Halle were great representative of ars vetus but prior to them we get so called ars elaboratio gregoriana music that not quite Gregorian in format, Hildegard von bingen ,Peter Abélard and the mysterieous Fulbert de Chartres.

:tiphat:


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

If you look at the series Conductus which Hyperion released, CDs with John Potter etc., there’s quite a lot of secular material in there, monophonic mostly, especially in Volume 3. The booklets for these CDs are well worth reading I think, you can find them on Hyperion’s website.

Antother thing to bear in mind is how porous the distinction between secular and sacred was - just think of the way Machaut motets might mix a bit of chant in the tenor with a love song in the triplum. This was possible because allegory was ubiquitous. Even as late as the C15, people have argued that L’homme armé has a religious meaning.


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