# A common thread?



## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Is there a common thread that links your favorite composer together? A certain aspect of how they write music? A geographic location? A philosophy?

It should come as no surprise that my two favorite composers are Jean Sibelius and Akira Ifukube. I have often thought that I am drawn to their music so strongly because there must be certain and tangible traits they both share. Does this explain my fanatical devotion?

1. Both were nationalist composers.
2. Both can be considered forefathers to what is now known as minimalism.
3. Both came from harsh, northern climates and were musically influenced by that.
4. Both were staunchly individualistic and were riducled by music critics for being "backwards" when the musical word around them was "progressing" toward the avant-garde.
5. Both put an above-average emphasis on the use of percussion.
6. Both wrote in a fairly melancholic mood.
7. Both had wives with similar names: Aino Sibelius, Aiko Ifukube
8. Both wives were from aristocratic backgrounds.
9. Both composer were dandies who enjoyed nice clothes and fine food and drink
10. Both were accomplished violinists.
11. Both were interested in portraying "the ancient" and "barbaric" in their music.
12 Both had a penchant for pedal points.
13. Both had a penachant for modal writing.
14. Both died at the same age: 91.

Of course, some of these are pure coincidence, but the stylistic things are are very interesting. What does this say about me?

I guess I have a thing for dark-hued, "northern music" that evokes something ancient and exotic.

So, my question is: what are the common threads running through your favorite composers, and what does that say about YOU?


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## Aramis (Mar 1, 2009)

.


> 5. Both put an above-average emphasis on the use of percussion.


Reeeeeeeeeally? I don't know much about Ifkube but I never noticed much percussion in Sibelius. It was one of his most notably conservative moves since he lived in times of Bartók and other geezers who started modernistic fashion of extending role of percussive instruments. Does he really use it much more than all late romantics?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Aramis said:


> .
> 
> Reeeeeeeeeally? I don't know much about Ifkube but I never noticed much percussion in Sibelius. It was one of his most notably conservative moves since he lived in times of Bartók and other geezers who started modernistic fashion of extending role of percussive instruments. Does he really use it much more than all late romantics?


Music critic David Hurwitz once referred to Sibelius and Mahler as the "two masters of the bass drum" or something to that effect.

Sibelius always treated purcussion as real parts of the orchestra, not just something you conspicuously bang on to get an effect here and there. You can hear this more obviously in his earlier works. Try En Saga or the Lemminkäinen Legends, particularly in Lemminkäinen in Tuonela. As is the case in most of Sibelius, it's there...it's just that it's not always as obvious.


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2011)

Well, the list of coincidences is largely fantasy and reveals something about Tapkaara. Little more. There is a lot of repetition in Ifukube, true, though it comes off quite differently from the repetition in Sibelius. Well, differently to me, anyway! But neither of them are anything like the repetition* in that one branch of minimalism that uses it. (Yes, I know, it's the only branch anyone knows about. It's only one branch, though, and not even the oldest one.) For that, something like the _Hostias_ of Berlioz _Requiem_ is a much better precursor.

Number three is flimsy all round. How many other northern composers are there? How many of them sound anything like each other? (Of course, I must say, Sibelius and Ifukube sound nothing alike to me. This pairing in Tapkaara's pantheon has always puzzled me. I suppose it always will, but perhaps as this thread goes along I do suppose I'll learn more about Tapkaara.) Maybe climes can influence composers musically, though I'm skeptical, but one thing is for sure, whatever influences one composer one way will influence another composer another way. (I know the music of many twentieth century Japanese composers; none of them have anything in common with Ifukube aside from being Japanese and having wives named Aiko.)

As for number four, this is a very tiresome canard, but however one may want to argue its applicability to Sibelius (1865-1957), it seems completely inappropriate to Ifukube (1914-2006) as "the avant garde" had already happened before he started composing. ("'Progressing' towards the avant garde" has a funny ring to it, doesn't it. I mean, be fair, avant garde means out in front. Progressing towards progressing.)

*The bits of Ifukube that might remind you of Philip Glass (who has never acknowledged the "minimalist" label for himself, just by the way) were probably ideas he picked up from Philip Glass.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

some guy said:


> Well, the list of coincidences is largely fantasy and reveals something about Tapkaara. Little more. There is a lot of repetition in Ifukube, true, though it comes off quite differently from the repetition in Sibelius. Well, differently to me, anyway! But neither of them are anything like the repetition* in that one branch of minimalism that uses it. (Yes, I know, it's the only branch anyone knows about. It's only one branch, though, and not even the oldest one.) For that, something like the _Hostias_ of Berlioz _Requiem_ is a much better precursor.
> 
> Number three is flimsy all round. How many other northern composers are there? How many of them sound anything like each other? (Of course, I must say, Sibelius and Ifukube sound nothing alike to me. This pairing in Tapkaara's pantheon has always puzzled me. I suppose it always will, but perhaps as this thread goes along I do suppose I'll learn more about Tapkaara.) Maybe climes can influence composers musically, though I'm skeptical, but one thing is for sure, whatever influences one composer one way will influence another composer another way. (I know the music of many twentieth century Japanese composers; none of them have anything in common with Ifukube aside from being Japanese and having wives named Aiko.)
> 
> ...


Thank you for your comments, I actually find them very interesting. But perhaps you are taking my points too seriously!

And yes, some of them are pure fantasy, as you put it. But that's OK, I find them fun.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

some guy said:


> As for number four, this is a very tiresome canard, but however one may want to argue its applicability to Sibelius (1865-1957), it seems completely inappropriate to Ifukube (1914-2006) as "the avant garde" had already happened before he started composing. ("'Progressing' towards the avant garde" has a funny ring to it, doesn't it. I mean, be fair, avant garde means out in front. Progressing towards progressing.)


I think one should take the development of western-style art music in Japan in its own context. In fact, true western-style art music has only existed in Japan for about 100 years.

The first generation of Japanese composers was born in the late 1800s. Kosaku Yamada wrote what is considered to be the first piece of Japanese orchestral music in Germany in 1912, an Overture. This is an amazingly conservative work written only one year perfore Le Sacre. Ifukube can be considered to be of the second generation of Japanese composers. It's the Japanese composers of this generation that were beginning to lean toward the avant-garde; the previous generation was much more interested in the "traditional" school of German composition...this was considered the finest model of western art music.

So, music was indeed developing along this path in Japan later than it had anywhere else in the so-called civilized world. Many of Ifukube's contemporaries did lean toward the newer European music while he sort of stayed in his own world. So, again, there is a special context to consider here.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

some guy said:


> Number three is flimsy all round. How many other northern composers are there? How many of them sound anything like each other? (Of course, I must say, Sibelius and Ifukube sound nothing alike to me. This pairing in Tapkaara's pantheon has always puzzled me.


I have never claimed that these two are somehow carbon copies of each other, or some sort of Oriental/Occidental doppelgänger. They are, after all, two different people and two different creative minds. HOWEVER, there unique similarities and perhaps I pick up on them easier beause I know their work so well.

I played a segment from Ifukube's Ballata Sinfonica for no less than Folke Gräsbeck, the esteemed Finnish pianist and Sibelius expert. I told him that there were rhythmic figures in Ifukube's work, and well as string textures, that were very redolent of En Saga. Mr. Gräsbeck seemed quite astonished when I played the recording and agreed with me. He even went so far to ask if Ifukube had been familir with En Saga. I said I did not know, but it was not likely that Ifukube was overly familiar with it.

So, the similarities are perhaps more subtle than anything. And I have no doubts that they are coincidental. And the bottom line is that this really means NOTHING other than I find it PERSONALLY interesting. This thread is by no means a treatise on how these two composers are somehow one and the same on some cosmic level.


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

Remember, this thread is for everyone to talk about the common threads that run through their favorite composers...


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2011)

Tapkaara said:


> I think one should take the development of western-style art music in Japan in its own context.


Indeed. You have outwitted me here. Well, this just goes to show that I'm not perefct.

Anyway, I'm glad you got something out of my remarks, which I now find remarkably churlish. Sigh.

OK. Back to the thread!!


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

Well, I would like to explore the nature of my "pantheon" of composers. I, like you tapkaara, enjoy having an obsessive "pantheon" of most worshipped composers but I have some trouble with being consistent. I tend to develop a certain soft spot for composers of high quality and highly specialized output who weren't very prolific. Those lesser appreciated composers that I love the most are WF Bach, Emmanuel Chabrier, Mily Balakirev, Muzio Clementi, and CPE Bach. Of a greater rung is Nikolai Medtner.

1. I've already stated they are of high quality but relatively limited output in quantity, or else were highly specialized.
2. They are especially talented at keyboard composition but also happen to be colorful orchestrators.
3. All unwieldy under the fingers despite SOUNDING good and pianistic. Clementi and Medtner are the exceptions to this, they are piano composers who knew how to write for the fingers.
4. All are rhythmically taut and quirky, particularly Chabrier and Medtner. Even Clementi really has his Scarlatti moments.
5. All excelling in the shorter works for keyboard. CPE Bach and Clementi sonatas are all pretty short too, but both they and Medtner are great at longer works as well.

I think what holds these together for me most is that they are so crafty with tight little keyboard pieces. Some other names that have always appealed to me and I would like to investigate further are John Field, Anatoly Liadov, Federico Mompou. These composers are of a more pensive and less rhythmic category then those above, as is Scriabin, but miniatures for keyboard is the key for me right now, it seems. Have any suggestions? Visit this thread http://www.talkclassical.com/16019-suggestions-my-sheet-music-2.html


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

some guy said:


> Indeed. You have outwitted me here. Well, this just goes to show that I'm not perefct.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad you got something out of my remarks, which I now find remarkably churlish. Sigh.
> 
> OK. Back to the thread!!


I do not mean to outwit anyone...just converse. It is refreshing, though, that I could make a comment that allows someone to see something a little differently than before. Usually, you get someone telling you you "missed the point" (one of my all-time favorite TC comebacks) or something along those lines. This is not combat, again, it is conversation. The whole point of conversation is to express and, hopefully, learn something new or be enlightened. Thank you!

It does seem that you have a higher than average awareness of Japanese music...have you studied it in some depth?


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## Tapkaara (Apr 18, 2006)

clavichorder said:


> Well, I would like to explore the nature of my "pantheon" of composers. I, like you tapkaara, enjoy having an obsessive "pantheon" of most worshipped composers but I have some trouble with being consistent. I tend to develop a certain soft spot for composers of high quality and highly specialized output who weren't very prolific. Those lesser appreciated composers that I love the most are WF Bach, Emmanuel Chabrier, Mily Balakirev, Muzio Clementi, and CPE Bach. Of a greater rung is Nikolai Medtner.
> 
> 1. I've already stated they are of high quality but relatively limited output in quantity, or else were highly specialized.
> 2. They are especially talented at keyboard composition but also happen to be colorful orchestrators.
> ...


Indeed, I do enjoy my little pantheon, as you put it. I am somewhat obsessive by nature, and to obsess over music and composers that I deeply enjoy is very fulfilling.

It is very interesting that there are indeed common characteristics that run through your group of favorites. I wonder, is this something we somehow glean internally without noticing it or does it result from years of exposure to their music and a subsequent desire to consciously seek out other music like it?


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2011)

Tapkaara said:


> It does seem that you have a higher than average awareness of Japanese music...have you studied it in some depth?


No. I just happen to know a few guys who were doing interesting stuff in the 60s and beyond, starting with Ichiyanagi, who Cage admired. And I know Otomo Yoshihide because he's always collaborating with other people I admire, like Martin Tetreault and Keith Rowe. (And I know Sachiko M because she collaborates with Otomo Yoshihide.) And I know Toshimaru Nakamura because he collaborates with Keith Rowe.

I know Katsura Mouri because she was half of Busratch, a turntable ensemble that started out as four people but was usually just two, Katsura Mouri and Takahiro Yamamoto. I got the Busratch CD (Memorium) because it was turntable music. It's long been a favorite of mine. Busratch has also collaborated with Otomo Yoshihide (Time Magic City). And so it goes.

I know Yasunao Tone because he's mentioned in a book on modern music, oddly enough. Odd because I don't read all that many books about contemporary music.

So my knowledge is neither systematic nor thorough, just the people who happen to do the kinds of music I enjoy. And I don't really pay any attention to nationality. Just to music. But Japanese names are so easy to spot as being Japanese, you know!

Hey, I just noticed a common thread, aside from Ichiyanagi and Tone, these are all turntablists. (And Tone has done similar music only with CDs.) Even Cage has used turntables in pieces, though not manipulated to the extent of, say, Christian Marclay.


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## Dodecaplex (Oct 14, 2011)

Since this is a serious discussion, I would have liked to express my opinions regarding my own pantheon of favorite composers. Sadly, because of my avatar, no one ever takes me seriously since they all assume that I'm either just being flippant, or sarcastic, or both.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

I can find no common thread for my favorite composers other than they all ascended through western culture, and I like their music. I'm sure if I thought hard enough about it I could find some similarities, but I seem to be all over the map. What is common between Beethoven and Ligeti?


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