# Navy Seal puts down musicians as incapable of becoming warriors...



## Musician

I was watching this program on youtube about Team Six of the Navy Seals. As much as I respect these great American warriors, and the warriors of My own country, the Israeli Navy Seals 'Flotilla 13', I found one of the seals comments about musicians very offensive. On the very beginning of the video take 0:22 and on, he says " Nobody became a Seal playing the violin". There has been for far too long this image of the musician that is kinda weak and feminine, soft and without courage in the battlefield. I think that the Seal's comments were unfortunate and couldnt be further from the truth. I know from my own knowledge of my Country, Israel, and anyone is more then welcome to bring evidence from their respective countries, that the most decorated Israel Generals and Military Special Ops were either musicians or artist. Lets begin with ancient history, King David, one of the world's most famous musicians was also a great military tactician and General. From recent history, Ehud Barak, is considered the most decorated Israeli soldier in the history of the modern state of Israel, and he is competent concert pianist, though he doesnt play in concerts, he is capable of performing piano concertos on a professional level. Before becoming a general he was the commander of Israel's top Secret and most elite unit, The 'Sayeret Matkal'. On a recent interview, former Head of Israel's legendary Secret Service The Mossad' had said that the overwhelming majority of all Mossad Agents are Artists. Dubbed 'The world's greatest fighter pilot' and was also credited as the 'most senior fighter pilot' by the Guinness World of Records, Uri Gill is not only an amazing IAF General and Pilot, but a great painter. There's a great film about him if anyone is interested to view his paintings and listen to his thoughts about how he reconciled these two worlds, here's a trailer:




But the point is, that whatever the Seal said doesnt reflect reality, a musician can be both gentle and powerful, and I'm sure that if a musician wanted to become a seal he would...


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## Cheyenne

I think that Navy Seal guy needs to hear a violin player fiddle in the Rite of Spring.


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## Garlic

What's so great about being a warrior?


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## Musician

Garlic said:


> What's so great about being a warrior?


I didnt say that it was great to be a warrior, I just didnt like the seal's comment that musicians can't be warriors or great military officers...


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## Logos

The view he expresses only applies to the modern day, in which high-art is largely divorced from definite social content and exists in an isolated niche of hedonism. In past times when art was deeply tied to religion and politics, soldiers were poets, politicians were playwrights, etc.

I think half the prime ministers of Britain in the 18th and 19th centuries, in the course of their lives either wrote novels, poetry, or translated classical works. And yet they were also men of action. The division between the two personality types is relatively recent.


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## Musician

Here is the video where the Seal says so:

Take 0:22 and on


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## EricABQ

Seems like sort of a strange thing to get worked up over.


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## Musician

EricABQ said:


> Seems like sort of a strange thing to get worked up over.


Its not strange, he is saying or arguing that a Musician can't achieve certain things if he really wanted or put his mind into it. I believe that music can only enhance not diminish...he insinuated that musicians are some kind of 'sissies' who are scared from the battlefield and cant become great soldiers, I believe he is wrong.


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## EricABQ

He actually said "nobody became a SEAL playing the violin after school."

That's most likely true (although I'm sure there are SEALS who play instruments.) I took him to mean that SEALS tend to come from more physical pursuits like football or wrestling due to the extreme physical demands of the profession. Not a particularly offensive comment, imo.


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## EricABQ

A converse comment would be "no one became a world class pianist spending 8 hours a day in the gym or shooting range."


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## Cheyenne

Logos said:


> The view he expresses only applies to the modern day, in which high-art is largely divorced from definite social content and exists in an isolated niche of hedonism. In past times when art was deeply tied to religion and politics, soldiers were poets, politicians were playwrights, etc.


Yes, it is strange how classical music, by breaking its direct connection with the consumer, has been disassociated from any kind of 'fun' over the last decades, and is seen generally as some sort of antique art form only meant for art students (that are looked down upon by nearly everyone) and old folks.



Musician said:


> I was watching this program on youtube about Team Six of the Navy Seals. As much as I respect these great American warriors, and the warriors of My own country, the Israeli Navy Seals 'Flotilla 13', I found one of the seals comments about musicians very offensive.


How likely is it he ever heard a symphony in full? (Not implying anything beyond that it's statistically unlikely for anyone to have heard one, mind you.) It's simply more prejudice. Nothing new, and nothing to get riled up about. Musicians have their advantages too: they're generally not too shabby with the ladies, to start with :lol: Besides, military men are also the victims of a great deal of prejudicial opinions, he can't be helped for harboring (get it?) some that are held by so many people.

Of course, you were after the general image of musicians.. Am I correct when I posit that you are one yourself, judging from your username?


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## Musician

And I pointed out some pretty convincing examples why he is wrong. Basically he insinuated that musicians in general and special ops are at odds with each other, that they don't add up, or run oblique. But music in my opinion is a very powerful tool, not only to add perspective and balance to the fighter, but to even add concentration, imagination, innovation, all things that are vital on the battlefield...



EricABQ said:


> He actually said "nobody became a SEAL playing the violin after school."
> 
> That's most likely true (although I'm sure there are SEALS who play instruments.) I took him to mean that SEALS tend to come from more physical pursuits like football or wrestling due to the extreme physical demands of the profession. Not a particularly offensive comment, imo.


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## Musician

EricABQ said:


> A converse comment would be "no one became a world class pianist spending 8 hours a day in the gym or shooting range."


That's pretty funny, but I think its still possible...lol


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## Logos

Musician said:


> Its not strange, he is saying or arguing that a Musician can't achieve certain things if he really wanted or put his mind into it. I believe that music can only enhance not diminish...he insinuated that musicians are some kind of 'sissies' who are scared from the battlefield and cant become great soldiers, I believe he is wrong.


But in practice, artists today do tend to be more effeminate than the average. Heck, most are not effeminate, but feminine, being women. Would you rather go into battle with a rugby team or a group of 1st violinists? Or to be a little less extreme, would you rather go into battle with a bunch of average joes or 1st violinists?

You might as well try to pretend that male dancers today aren't more effeminate than most men. Art today attracts women and effeminate men. The question of why is debatable and complex, but the fact is observable by all.


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## Logos

Musician said:


> That's pretty funny, but I think its still possible...lol


Take the example of Sir Henry Rawlinson. A great military man and excellent athlete who also had time to become the father of Assyriology and one of the great classicists of the 19th century. That kind of man doesn't really come around much any more. In those days, a man could go out on the savannah, shoot a bull elephant, come back to camp and read Virgil or play the violin. Those days are long gone. Now all we have are these anxious, shy, morbid, depressed weaklings, or stupid hyper-masculine oafs. No complete personalities.


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## Musician

Here's an Image of 4 Israeli Navy Seals warriors, I can just imagine all of them playing the trombone or the tuba anyway...I'm sure that many within the unit are either musicians or artists...


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## jani

I kinda understand were its coming from, to be able to go trough a navy seal training you really have to have a deep belief to the values 
that they have like "no pain, no gain" and they really have to have **** loads of will power to get into that shape and stay there.

Too bad that some of them go in so deep that they forget that becoming master in other areas of life require loads of dispicline too.


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## Cheyenne

Logos said:


> Take the example of Sir Henry Rawlinson. A great military man and excellent athlete who also had time to become the father of Assyriology and one of the great classicists of the 19th century. That kind of man doesn't really come around much any more. In those days, a man could go out on the savannah, shoot a bull elephant, come back to camp and read Virgil or play the violin. Those days are long gone. Now all we have are these anxious, shy, morbid, depressed weaklings, or stupid hyper-masculine oafs. No complete personalities.


I suppose you're right, though the conclusion is excessively pessimistic and a little exaggerated. May the pragmatic and the analytical, the low-brow and the high-brow, once again reunite!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Is the guy in the middle holding an AK? Who cares about what some Navy Seal said - prove him wrong by kicking a** and playing a classical instrument to boot. It's typical of people who don't possess a certain talent to denigrate others who do. I'm not implying the Navy Seal was not talented, just that musicians are talented or great in another field.


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## Tristan

jani said:


> Too bad that some of them go in so deep that they forget that becoming master in other areas of life require loads of dispicline too.


Couldn't agree more.

I don't really care about this man's comments. It may or may not be true. I don't think everyone is cut out for the same kind of occupation. But I also don't think that just because someone might not have the physical or mental prowess for a military position that that somehow makes them inferior. We're meant for different things.


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## Kieran

Musician said:


> Here's an Image of 4 Israeli Navy Seals warriors, I can just imagine all of them playing the trombone or the tuba anyway...I'm sure that many within the unit are either musicians or artists...


Actually, the guy in the front there looks a bit dodgy. I bet he has a violin in his closet that nobody knows about...


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## Logos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Is the guy in the middle holding an AK? Personally, I wouldn't take comments like that seriously, because it all depends on the person talked about. Just because someone plays a classical instrument, doesn't mean they can't be masculine. Besides, heavy metal artists are not effeminate, so there.


Heavy metal artists are only artists in the same sense that peasant who makes up drinking songs is an artist. It bears no relation to the ecclesiastical-aristocratic social arrangement from which classical music and other traditional arts are descended.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Logos said:


> Heavy metal artists are only artists in the same sense that peasant who makes up drinking songs is an artist. It bears no relation to the ecclesiastical-aristocratic social tradition from which classical music and other fine arts are descended.


Not true, many heavy metal artists are aware of, and use classical music in their songs.


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## Musician

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Is the guy in the middle holding an AK? Who cares about what some Navy Seal said - prove him wrong by kicking a** and playing a classical instrument to boot. It's typical of people who don't possess a certain talent to denigrate others who do. I'm not implying the Navy Seal was not talented, just that musicians are talented or great in another field.


It certainly looks like it, though the others are using their country's famous Uzi


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## Logos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Not true, many heavy metal artists are aware of, and use classical music in their songs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many more examples.


Then by the same logic classical musicians using folk themes in classical compositions would be folk musicians. Is Brahms therefore a folk musician? That would be highly misleading.

You seek to prove Heavy metal artists are good artists by saying they are artists insofar as they incorporate music of another kind into heavy metal. That's like saying a movie is good insofar as you edit other parts of a different, good movie into it.

The question is whether or not those things which are unique to the essence of that music are part of the same tradition, or standard of quality. This business of trying to legitimize commercial radio music by saying that it pirates classical music only underlines the poverty of those forms.

If you say the intrusion of classical music legitimizes heavy metal music, then you must say heavy metal which is entirely non-classical is illegitimate. I agree--insofar as heavy metal is completely imitative of classical music, it is good. Insofar as it does anything unique to itself, it is bad. But I don't think you desired to argue that.


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## Tristan

Oy. Something tells me this is just going to turn into another "define _art_" debate...


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## deggial

Logos said:


> Heavy metal artists are only artists in the same sense that peasant who makes up drinking songs is an artist. It bears no relation to the ecclesiastical-aristocratic social arrangement from which classical music and other traditional arts are descended.


traditional arts started in villages, way back in stone age and were indeed invented by peasants.


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## Musician

Here's an Israeli Soldier Sarit Peterson teaching Idf Elite Units how to shoot accurately, she is considered one of the best...
And its no secret that the IDF has some of the most daring and elite Special Ops in the world, and what do you know, one of their instructors is a Israeli Lady Blonde! its amazing!










Here's an article about her, maybe the American Seal should come to her and take a few lessons in accurate shooting!

http://www.idfblog.com/2013/09/15/lock-load-sarit-petersen-shooting-instructor/


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## Crudblud

I can't quite put my finger on it but there seems to be an ulterior motive to all this...


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## Ingélou

Musicians are just people & if some (not all) people can fight & be in the Navy so can some (not all) musicians.

Interestingly, I read Max Jaffa's autobiog, '*My Life on the Fiddle*' (he was well known on 50s & 60s British television) & he was of fighting age during WWII. He joined up before he was called up - being Jewish, he felt as strongly as anyone the need to fight Nazism - and decided straight away *not* to use his musicianship as a way of avoiding combat. 'Nobody was going to win the war by playing the violin' was how he put it. However, he didn't manage to become a pilot, as he'd planned, & ended up helping to fly transport planes (I *think*; I can't quite remember now).

But for six years, he didn't play the violin at all. When he was demobbed & thought he'd go back to it, he found that a neurosis had kicked in. He *couldn't play a note* - just physically unable to lay the bow on the string. Fate had it that soon afterwards he met his old violin teacher in the street - confided in him - and his teacher, an eminent violinist, gave him *free* lessons almost every day for two years till he was 'back in the saddle'. How about *that*? :tiphat:

Not sure of the relevance, but it's a lovely story!


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## Musician

Crudblud said:


> I can't quite put my finger on it but there seems to be an ulterior motive to all this...


So you're saying there is no evidence to prove your point...

Case closed.


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## apricissimus

I knew a guy who was enrolled in a conservatory and was making payments on a $20,000 marimba when he gave it all up to join the Marines.


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## Logos

deggial said:


> traditional arts started in villages, way back in stone age and were indeed invented by peasants.


Anthropologists tell us that even the charming cave paintings which are among the earliest examples of what we usually mean by art, weren't painted by everyone but probably by a special class of priest/magicians. Already incipient social stratification had begun.

If you mean to say peasants invented artFORMS, then I could hardly argue with you, since who knows who made the first rude clay pot. However, I don't think that prehistoric art is really germane to an argument about classical art.

In prehistoric times, social stratification was not so marked. But by the time we come to recorded history, with it's well defined social strata, art was being classicized in the hands of craftsmen in the service of state and religion. And it is this social arrangement from which great art emerges and it is that art which my argument addressed.

Your statement is bit like saying civilization began to develop in uncivilized times, which is undoubtedly true. So too great art developed slowly in hands of primitive peasants. But we should be glad it didn't remain there.


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## Pennypacker

To become a professional musician you need a lot of time for training to achieve that level, then keep doing it to stay on that level. Same goes for a professional warrior. So yeah, it's almost impossible to combine the two. If we're talking just about loving classical music and being a warrior, then the whole macho warrior concept is no different from the general public's view of classical music. But from my experience in the army, you have a better chance at finding a classical fan among the navy seals, pilots, or other elite units, than in the regular combat divisions. Which is not surprising, since it's not only your physical skills that get you into these units, but also (even more so) your mental abilities.


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## Tristan

Musician said:


> So you're saying there is no evidence to prove your point...
> 
> Case closed.


I think he's saying that this almost seems like a plug for the Israeli army. Not sure why, but it came off that way to me too.


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## DavidA

The whole argument of the gentleman who is a Navy Seal is based on a false assumption of stereotype. We imagine fighting men are the sort of lantern-jawed figures that can butt their way through an oak door - the sort you see in action comics. In reality they are very different. My father was a commando in World War II and saw some of the toughest action including the raid on Dieppe, in which he almost lost his life. He was also a modest, unassuming man, a very talented pianist who earned money from music. Interesting that on one famous commando raid at St Nazaire those participating included a poet, a philosopher and a theological student!


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## aleazk

Crudblud said:


> I can't quite put my finger on it but there seems to be an ulterior motive to all this...


Subliminal message: join the Israeli army now!. Look how cool we are with our weapons in these pictures.


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## Musician

aleazk said:


> Subliminal message: join the Israeli army now!. Look how cool we are with our weapons in these pictures.


Yea, all of you join the Israeli Navy Seals, that was my entire point... LOL!


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## Musician

Great Post David!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



DavidA said:


> The whole argument of the gentleman who is a Navy Seal is based on a false assumption of stereotype. We imagine fighting men are the sort of lantern-jawed figures that can butt their way through an oak door - the sort you see in action comics. In reality they are very different. My father was a commando in World War II and saw some of the toughest action including the raid on Dieppe, in which he almost lost his life. He was also a modest, unassuming man, a very talented pianist who earned money from music. Interesting that on one famous commando raid at St Nazaire those participating included a poet, a philosopher and a theological student!


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Logos said:


> Anthropologists tell us that even the charming cave paintings which are among the earliest examples of what we usually mean by art, weren't painted by everyone but probably by a special class of priest/magicians. Already incipient social stratification had begun.
> 
> If you mean to say peasants invented artFORMS, then I could hardly argue with you, since who knows who made the first rude clay pot. However, I don't think that prehistoric art is really germane to an argument about classical art.
> 
> In prehistoric times, social stratification was not so marked. But by the time we come to recorded history, with it's well defined social strata, art was being classicized in the hands of craftsmen in the service of state and religion. And it is this social arrangement from which great art emerges and it is that art which my argument addressed.
> 
> Your statement is bit like saying civilization began to develop in uncivilized times, which is undoubtedly true. So too great art developed slowly in hands of primitive peasants. But we should be glad it didn't remain there.


Dude, stop trying to sound as though you know the last thing about everything. If you don't like the forum or the people here, you're welcome to leave. If you don't like heavy metal, that's fine, but don't make ignorant comments about it especially if you haven't heard any of it.


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## moody

Garlic said:


> What's so great about being a warrior?


You should rethink that or you might offend someone.


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## Ukko

moody said:


> You should rethink that or you might offend someone.


Yeah, it's the 'great' word again. There are several other adjectives that would work, depending on the subject. In this case for example, there is something very _gratifying_ about being an accepted member of an elite group. The opinion of a 'garlic' has no relevance, for pretty obvious reasons.


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## Logos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Dude, stop trying to sound as though you know the last thing about everything. If you don't like the forum or the people here, you're welcome to leave. If you don't like heavy metal, that's fine, but don't make ignorant comments about it especially if you haven't heard any of it.


I do like heavy metal a lot. I have at least a hundred heavy metal/rock albums in fact. I've been playing electric guitar since I could pick one up. And I do like the forum and the people here. It seems however that you don't like me. I'm sorry for that. I do wish you would address my points. Show me my ignorance through argument rather than announcing it.


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## starthrower

EricABQ said:


> He actually said "nobody became a SEAL playing the violin after school."


What a genius, this warrior! "Some of us had the good sense to stay out of the way while the homicidal maniacs went on slaughtering each other." - Bertrand Russell


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## Ukko

starthrower said:


> What a genius, this warrior! "Some of us had the good sense to stay out of the way while the homicidal maniacs went on slaughtering each other." - Bertrand Russell


Ol' Bert' may have been a prime candidate for citizenship in that Brave New World, eh?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Logos said:


> I do like heavy metal a lot. I have at least a hundred heavy metal/rock albums in fact. I've been playing electric guitar since I could pick one up. And I do like the forum and the people here. It seems however that you don't like me. I'm sorry for that. I do wish you would address my points. Show me my ignorance through argument rather than announcing it.


Well, it's good to know that you like heavy metal but to me, beforehand, it seemed that you were just trying to look condescendingly on those who do. Maybe I misinterpreted. What I meant was, that classical music, by being 'taken up' and 'absorbed' by heavy metal, gained a certain 'masculinity' which may appeal to people who feel that classical isn't 'masculine' enough, which seemed to prompt the author of the thread to post it in the first place. Now, if classical music is truly 'effeminate' is something I would debate from the onset and not assume as true, so that for me, no doubt arises as to the 'masculinity-factor' of classical music. Some composers have more 'masculine' tendenices than others - one can debate which these are, but for me, more rhythmatic composers tend to come across as more 'masculine'. The first composers who come to mind, for me, are Haydn, Beethoven and Vivaldi.


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## deggial

Logos said:


> And it is this social arrangement from which great art emerges


says you. It's obviously a classist argument. I find the Lascaux cave paintings (for instance) great art on par with anything that came afterwards.


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## Logos

deggial said:


> says you. It's obviously a classist argument. I find the Lascaux cave paintings (for instance) great art on par with anything that came afterwards.


As I said, that was produced by the priestly shaman class who were probably trained in conventional art forms. So say anthropologists. Supports my argument I'd say, that even primitive cave paintings were stereotyped (note the conventional features like the multiplied limbs to signify speed) products of a special class for a special, probably religious purpose.

You're also trying to equate primitive art with the individual expression modern art seeks. There is no equivalence there. Even primitive art served tribal society. Modern art serves only to ridicule society or ignore it.


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## Jobis

Ignorant ******* makes ignorant generalisations... is this really thread worthy?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Modern art serves only to ridicule society or ignore it.

Well, which modern art do you mean? Do you mean modern pop art/music, or modern classical music/visual art?


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## Logos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Modern art serves only to ridicule society or ignore it.
> 
> Well, which modern art do you mean? Do you mean modern pop art/music, or modern classical music/visual art?


I see it all of the same kind.


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## Logos

Jobis said:


> Ignorant ******* makes ignorant generalisations... is this really thread worthy?


Well aren't you sweet :kiss:


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## Taggart

I think the British get fed up with the US claiming to have won the war. When they talk about music and war, they seem to have no experience of either. One only has to look at Bill Millin, piper to Simon Fraser 15th Earl of Lovat who played the pipes on Sword beach to see what British musicians can do.










Millins is on the left of the shot.


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## Ingélou

Taggart said:


> I think the British get fed up with the US claiming to have won the war. When they talk about music and war, they seem to have no experience of either. One only has to look at Bill Millin, piper to Simon Fraser 15th Earl of Lovat who played the pipes on Sword beach to see what British musicians can do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Millins is on the left of the shot.


This is so inspiring. He died recently, but I remember an interview where he said he expected to be shot at any time; afterwards, he talked to some Germans & asked why they hadn't shot him and they said, 'Because he was obviously mad!' 

Talk about 'Scotland the Brave'... :tiphat:


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## PetrB

How much anyone should pay attention to anyone from one profession using the example of another profession they know absolutely nothing about -- including what it takes to get there -- I suppose is up to the listener.

I'd go to that guy to rescue my [email protected]@, and the fiddle player if I wanted to be confident to hear the fiddle played well.

And he's right -- you don't get prepped physically to become a hard-bodied physical specimen and go through the extreme mental and physical rigor of S.E.A.L. training by practicing the fiddle after school.

You also don't become any kind of professional musician if you do not practice your instrument for hours after school.

So, he chose music as the time spent not preparing physically to be a S.E.A.L. Should he have been more directly politically correct and picked on fashion design or beauty school students, cited instead the budding dweeb who will later become an international Chess champion? LOL.

Great as a S.E.A.L. no doubt, not the sharpest knife in the drawer when speaking -- and I'm _just shocked!_... at a late teen, early twenty year-old alpha male who has signed up for following orders unto his own death, with his lack of intellectual powers or sensitive consideration of others.

Ha Haaaa Haaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaa. Lol & "meh."


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## Logos

George Steiner, the author, made a point about how education does not necessarily make people moral by emphasizing how well educated nazi soldiers were in general. Many SS officers were excellent musicians in fact, a point Steiner also made. Some of the top nazi generals were men of great culture and education. Why is it the nazis could be excellent military minds and extremely cultured, but anglo american soldiers today are apparently so stupid. Obviously being a military man has nothing to do with it in itself. It's a question of cultural differences between nations and time periods.


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## aleazk

Effeminates, eh?. I wouldn't mess with this guy! lol:


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Who is that guy? Looks like he wants to kick somebody's a**, pardon my horrific language. This thread is turning into an all out, testosterone and estrogen driven WAR - put your dukes up people, it's time to slam down the arguments.


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## Musician

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Who is that guy? Looks like he wants to kick somebody's a**, pardon my horrific language. This thread is turning into an all out, testosterone and estrogen driven WAR - put your dukes up people, it's time to slam down the arguments.


Have you never heard of this Russian Conductor?


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## violadude

If someone is saying I wouldn't be able to go onto a battlefield and shoot a bunch of guys I don't know, I am fine with that accusation...


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## Musician

Ha the Swedes, you can always expect them to come up with something extraordinary...

You say this guy has some hope to become a Navy Seal...?


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## KenOC

Logos said:


> George Steiner, the author, made a point about how education does not necessarily make people moral by emphasizing how well educated nazi soldiers were in general.


I'm sure that many or most Nazi soldiers considered themselves quite moral people. Of course we don't think so today, primarily because we won and they lost...


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## violadude

Musician said:


> So you're saying there is no evidence to prove your point...
> 
> Case closed.


It does look quite suspicious once you start posting pictures of Israeli Army without at all trying to tie it back to classical music...


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## Musician

violadude said:


> It does look quite suspicious once you start posting pictures of Israeli Army without at all trying to tie it back to classical music...


Do you know what it means to make a 'Point'?


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## moody

starthrower said:


> What a genius, this warrior! "Some of us had the good sense to stay out of the way while the homicidal maniacs went on slaughtering each other." - Bertrand Russell


Bertrand Russell was a pain in the butt and not much else.
What would have happened if everyone had stayed out of the way while the Japanese and the Germans were on the rampage ?
Some comments make me feel ill.


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## Musician

moody said:


> Bertrand Russell was a pain in the butt and not much else.
> What would have happened if everyone had stayed out of the way while the Japanese and the Germans were on the rampage ?
> Some comments make me feel ill.


Derailment warning...........


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## violadude

Musician said:


> Do you know what it means to make a 'Point'?


Yes....what point are you trying to make?


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## Logos

moody said:


> Bertrand Russell was a pain in the butt and not much else.
> What would have happened if everyone had stayed out of the way while the Japanese and the Germans were on the rampage ?
> Some comments make me feel ill.


I think he was talking about ww i, in which case I'd have to agree it would've been better if the Germans had won a quick victory. That way, no nazis and probably no ww ii. Lots of bloodshed avoided.


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## moody

KenOC said:


> I'm sure that many or most Nazi soldiers considered themselves quite moral people. Of course we don't think so today, primarily because we won and they lost...


Really,I thought that you might be aware of some of the things they did and this was not confined to units of the SS. Do you know much about WW11 ?


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## moody

Logos said:


> I think he was talking about ww i, in which case I'd have to agree it would've been better if the Germans had won a quick victory. That way, no nazis and probably no ww ii. Lots of bloodshed avoided.


I know all about the wretch,he was based here in the UK you know.


----------



## Musician

violadude said:


> It does look quite suspicious once you start posting pictures of Israeli Army without at all trying to tie it back to classical music...


That been a Seal is not a contradiction to been a musician, its possible, and I brought a Photograph of some members of the Legendary Israeli 'Flotilla 13' Seals, saying that I can just imagine them been musicians, playing the trombone or the Tuba...
What's not nice about that?


----------



## violadude

Musician said:


> That been a Seal is not a contradiction to been a musician, its possible, and I brought a Photograph of some members of the Legendary Israeli 'Flotilla 13' Seals, saying that I can just imagine them been musicians, playing the trombone or the Tuba...
> What's not nice about that?


Are they a Trombone or Tuba player?


----------



## Ukko

Logos said:


> I think he was talking about ww i, in which case I'd have to agree it would've been better if the Germans had won a quick victory. That way, no nazis and probably no ww ii. Lots of bloodshed avoided.


Hah. Wouldn't have 'needed' a 3rd Reich, eh? the 2nd Reich would still be going on. Brilliant logic there!


----------



## Musician

violadude said:


> If someone is saying I wouldn't be able to go onto a battlefield and shoot a bunch of guys I don't know, I am fine with that accusation...


Most of the time in war, enemy combatants dont sit and have a cup of coffee and socialize before they knock each other down...


----------



## Musician

violadude said:


> Are they a Trombone or Tuba player?


That was the point, why should we assume that they are not?


----------



## Logos

Hilltroll72 said:


> Hah. Wouldn't have 'needed' a 3rd Reich, eh? the 2nd Reich would still be going on. Brilliant logic there!


Quite sound as far as I can see. The Kaiser's despotism was no worse than Britain's global hegemony from the liberal point of view. It's just that one has a flag anglo-americans like more.


----------



## violadude

Musician said:


> That was the point, why should we assume that they are not?


Why would we assume that they are?


----------



## PetrB

Logos said:


> But in practice, artists today do tend to be more effeminate than the average. .... Art today attracts women and effeminate men.


Cartoonish, at best. At worst, as per the mods, sexist in the extreme.

Since you are a member of and participating in a classical music forum, as per the second sentence in the quote, does that make you either one or the other you named there?


----------



## Musician

violadude said:


> Why would we assume that they are?


It seems you got the point, good for you...


----------



## Logos

PetrB said:


> Cartoonish, at best. At worst, as per the mods, sexist in the extreme.
> 
> Since you are a member of and participating in a classical music forum, as per the second sentence in the quote, does that make you either one or the other you named there?


What's sexist about it? I never said it was bad to be effeminate, just that men who like classical music tend to be effeminate. It's a plain fact. male dancers tend to be effeminate, too. It's a fact. You seem to think effeminacy is bad--are you "sexist" therefore? What's cartoonish and sexist about facts that are observable by all?


----------



## Ukko

Logos said:


> Quite sound as far as I can see. The Kaiser's despotism was no worse than Britain's global hegemony from the liberal point of view. It's just that one has a flag anglo-americans like more.


One of those 'Elizabethan' things that _Taginue_ accuses me of is "Simple is as simple sees it". Probably was meant to harass folks with a speech impediment, eh?


----------



## Logos

Hilltroll72 said:


> One of those 'Elizabethan' things that _Taginue_ accuses me of is "Simple is as simple sees it". Probably was meant to harass folks with a speech impediment, eh?


Everyone who is pro-german is simple therefore? Don't be difficult. And who in heaven's name is taginue? You say that as if I should know all your friends.


----------



## PetrB

Kieran said:


> Actually, the guy in the front there looks a bit dodgy. I bet he has a violin in his closet that nobody knows about...


The eye makeup is a dead giveaway....


----------



## PetrB

Logos said:


> What's sexist about it? I never said it was bad to be effeminate, just that men who like classical music tend to be effeminate. It's a plain fact. male dancers tend to be effeminate, too. It's a fact. You seem to think effeminacy is bad--are you "sexist" therefore? What's cartoonish and sexist about facts that are observable by all?


So what of these men? I mean, do they lisp, wiggle when they walk, or are they just more "sensitive" than a simple-minded brute jock... I really have not, in a lifetime of working in the arts, really seen what is so obvious to you (other than the few aggressively flamboyant of the gay men, of which there are as many -- I think -- proportionately, outside of the fine arts as in the fine arts.)

If a certain intellectual inclination and a bit of access to your emotional frame of reference is "feminine" then that is a rather sexist notion in itself. Are we talking higher pitched speaking voices, I mean what?

I tend to think that both Yanks and Brits have seriously polarized notions of masculine and feminine traits. Ergo, if it is not feminine, the other pole is hyper-male jock S.E.A.L. -- more physical than mental, etc. [Of course, many American males of a type think all British and European men are not at all manly, and / or gay. Some Brits males I know think _all_ French men are feminine.]

Anyway, I think to even think of people of one gender or another as masculine and feminine, other than the pretty undeniable physical qualities, a cartoonish preoccupation.

The fact you even brought it up, said the effeminacy of men in the arts was visible and a fact, well, BIG generalization, and kinda foolish I thought.


----------



## Ukko

Logos said:


> Everyone who is pro-german is simple therefore? Don't be difficult. And who in heaven's name is taginue? You say that as if I should know all your friends.


It says there in the upper left corner of your post window that you've been a TC member since Nov 2012, have made 170+ posts. You must have noticed _Taginue_; he is a couple. BTW your logic is escapeable.


----------



## regressivetransphobe

PetrB said:


> Cartoonish, at best. At worst, as per the mods, sexist in the extreme.
> 
> Since you are a member of and participating in a classical music forum, as per the second sentence in the quote, does that make you either one or the other you named there?


But kinda true to be honest.

To answer your second question, my girlfriend has to kill spiders for me because they scare me.


----------



## Logos

PetrB said:


> Ergo, if it is not feminine, the other pole is hyper-male jock S.E.A.L. -- more physical than mental, etc. [Of course, many American males of a type think all British and European men are not at all manly, and / or gay. Some male Brits I know think _all_ French men are feminine.]


Do you think male musicians and dancers today are no more effeminate than the ordinary western male?

I myself see no opposition between being masculine and composing poems or music. On the contrary, I think an appreciation of great art tends to make men manlier. However, in modern times, art has tended to attract effeminate people and women. In the past (that is, in the west at least), women were largely excluded from creating art and effeminate men were thought of as depraved and flawed.


----------



## Logos

Hilltroll72 said:


> BTW your logic is escapeable.


Please do tell me how so.

You know, in some societies, blandly announcing to another person that they are a simpleton, and that their arguments are incorrect without providing a counter-argument could be construed as rather rude.


----------



## PetrB

Logos said:


> Do you think male musicians and dancers today are no more effeminate than the ordinary western male?
> 
> I myself see no opposition between being masculine and composing poems or music. On the contrary, I think an appreciation of great art tends to make men manlier. However, *in modern times, art has tended to attract effeminate people and women.* In the past (that is, in the west at least), women were largely excluded from creating art and effeminate men were thought of as depraved and flawed.


my bold, above : Where are both the _logos_ and the stats, not empiric observations / opinions, but stats, on that?


----------



## Logos

PetrB said:


> my bold, above : Where are both the _logos_ and the stats, not empirtic pbservations / opinions, but stats, on that?


But do you really deny something so obvious in the first place? Do you actually deny that male dancers are effeminate? As for statistics, as useful as any other measurement is that fact that women vastly outnumber men today in art classrooms at universities. And they are starting to outnumber men in professional orchestras. Bad orchestras perhaps, but orchestras nonetheless. And soon the great German orchestras that tried to preserve themselves will be totally swamped too. It's already pretty far gone.

In any case, one shouldn't have to provide statistics for the obvious. I don't know the crime statistics for oakland CA, but I know I don't want to live there.


----------



## moody

Logos said:


> What's sexist about it? I never said it was bad to be effeminate, just that men who like classical music tend to be effeminate. It's a plain fact. male dancers tend to be effeminate, too. It's a fact. You seem to think effeminacy is bad--are you "sexist" therefore? What's cartoonish and sexist about facts that are observable by all?


This is extremely cartoonish the music groups in most towns consist of very "normal" married, elderly couples.


----------



## Logos

moody said:


> This is extremely cartoonish the music groups in most towns consist of very "normal" married, elderly couples.


Sure, but local music groups aren't tied to modern music composition any more than local reading clubs are buzzing hives of actual literary production. Modern composers on the other hand are legitimate weirdies.


----------



## PetrB

Logos said:


> But do you really deny something so obvious in the first place? Do you actually deny that male dancers are effeminate? As for statistics, as useful as any other measurement is that fact that women vastly outnumber men today in art classrooms at universities. And they are starting to outnumber men in professional orchestras. Bad orchestras perhaps, but orchestras nonetheless. And soon the great German orchestras that tried to preserve themselves will be totally swamped too. It's already pretty far gone.
> 
> In any case, one shouldn't have to provide statistics for the obvious. I don't know the crime statistics for oakland CA, but I know I don't want to live there.


So you equate grace of coordinated movement as _effeminate_? Too funny.

Classical ballet is about as mannered as it gets, anyway, filled with artifice and conceits from earlier centuries.

I suppose you think if a man sits and crosses his legs at the knees that that is effeminate? News flash, pretty much only in the U.K. and former colonies populated mainly by the Caucasian emigrants from the U.K. (Britain, Canada) is that artificial convention in place -- leaving the rest of all the males blithely crossing their legs at the knees, oblivious to the artificial construct, leaving the rest of the the world effeminate, I guess.

It is precisely that too many simple-minded men and women think of being an orchestral player as not a 'manly' profession (let alone concerns of parents for what kind of income their son might make) who discourage or do not support the son who could have gone there.

The women players will "Get Married anyway," so whether they make it or not matters less. Let the little girl have her violin and lessons, discourage the boy. Sexism, and stupid sexism, in action right there.

So what used to be a man's profession is now thought of as effeminate, something for sissies, and financially far less secure or viable -- keep junior from it but let the girls have it. This is far from men being effeminate or masculine. It is parents of both genders (and perhaps a collective social attitude) working in concert with stupidity which sets up such a situation.


----------



## DavidA

Just to add a point about the false stereotypes. My grandfather was a regular soldier who fought in both world wars. He was also a trumpeter and a very fine tenor.


----------



## KenOC

Of possible interest in this thread....


----------



## Ingélou

Hilltroll72 said:


> One of those 'Elizabethan' things that _Taginue_ accuses me of is "Simple is as simple sees it". Probably was meant to harass folks with a speech impediment, eh?


????????????????????????

I am not aware that Taggart or I *have* accused you of anything, Hilltroll.
But I am *now*: please *stop* treating me as if I have no separate identity. That seems both sexist, and a dismissive attitude to my style of posting, and *both* run counter to the spirit of TC debate.
Thank you.

(Edit: the point of *my* post was to salute the bravery of the Scottish piper who piped in his regiment's D-Day landings, and thus to support the idea that musicians need not be wimps. I was not thinking of you at all, Hilltroll - sorry!)


----------



## Tristan

PetrB said:


> I suppose you think if a man sits and crosses his legs at the knees that that is effeminate? News flash, pretty much only in the U.K. and former colonies populated mainly by the Caucasian emigrants from the U.K. (Britain, Canada) is that artificial convention in place -- leaving the rest of all the males blithely crossing their legs at the knees, oblivious to the artificial construct, leaving the rest of the the world effeminate, I guess.


Ha. I've been doing that my entire life. It surprised me to find out that it was considered "feminine" by some.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Musician said:


> Have you never heard of this Russian Conductor?


I wouldn't have asked if I did .


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Logos said:


> What's sexist about it? I never said it was bad to be effeminate, just that men who like classical music tend to be effeminate. It's a plain fact. male dancers tend to be effeminate, too. It's a fact. You seem to think effeminacy is bad--are you "sexist" therefore? What's cartoonish and sexist about facts that are observable by all?


So are you effeminate, if I may ask? If this is so ok, why won't you just admit that you are?
Thinking effeminacy is 'bad' doesn't make one sexist - it just means one is aware of, and wants to preserve, one's own gender role in society.


----------



## Guest

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I wouldn't have asked if I did .


Unless I missed where someone else put you (and all of us) out of your misery, it's Valery Gergiev.

Someone paid me the compliment that my 'Mind v Body' thread was original or unusual (or somesuch - I appreciated it at the time, but forget the exact words).

This thread has mine beat by millions! Bizarre opportunity to parade prejudices about violin players, effeminate men, women as artists, navy SEALs, Israeli military, 3rd Reich, Bertrand Russell...

Keep it coming folks, there's an award here somewhere for Thread of the Year!


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

I know, awesome thread. Everyone's just waiting to sink their teeth into the next post . 
And what's special about Mr. Gergiev? He must've been posted in this thread for some reason.


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

Hilltroll72 said:


> It says there in the upper left corner of your post window that you've been a TC member since Nov 2012, have made 170+ posts. You must have noticed _Taginue_; he is a couple. BTW your logic is escapeable.


I think that was out of place on a forum like this.


----------



## Kieran

I made the dinner again last night. Reading this thread, I think I'll stop making the dinner and tell my wife to know her place. 

Making dinners is effeminates bidness!  :devil:


----------



## PetrB

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think that was out of place on a forum like this.


Yet another example of more than escapeable reasoning. Anyway, shouldn't it be a plural bisex or gender neutral pronoun? Do we need a new word for this, another one where everyone can chime in with "To me, this means _______ . "

Smiley faces, everyone.

P.s. anyone bother to track how far this has gone from the less than wisp of music relevance the OP lacked in the first place?


----------



## PetrB

MacLeod said:


> Unless I missed where someone else put you (and all of us) out of your misery, it's Valery Gergiev.
> 
> Someone paid me the compliment that my 'Mind v Body' thread was original or unusual (or somesuch - I appreciated it at the time, but forget the exact words).
> 
> This thread has mine beat by millions! Bizarre opportunity to parade prejudices about violin players, effeminate men, women as artists, navy SEALs, Israeli military, 3rd Reich, Bertrand Russell...
> 
> Keep it coming folks, there's an award here somewhere for Thread of the Year!


*"THE TC MEANDER THREAD PRIZE OF 2013 goes to...."*

... or is that just too plain straightforward and coherent?


----------



## Ukko

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think that was out of place on a forum like this.


So I gather. Guess I'll have to leave I&T be, eh?


----------



## Kieran

Hilltroll72 said:


> So I gather. Guess I'll have to leave I&T be, eh?


Why don't you, if you can't be reasonable. Taggart and Ingenue are two great posters, who add immensely to this site. Insulting them says less about them, if you catch my drift...


----------



## moody

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> I think that was out of place on a forum like this.


In a forum like what exactly ?


----------



## moody

Kieran said:


> Why don't you, if you can't be reasonable. Taggart and Ingenue are two great posters, who add immensely to this site. Insulting them says less about them, if you catch my drift...


congratulations on your promotion to moderator. Why don't you just let people make their own objections--which they have !


----------



## Kieran

moody said:


> congratulations on your promotion to moderator. Why don't you just let people make their own objections--which they have !


Because if people feel free to insult my friends, then I feel free to reply. That's okay with you, is it?


----------



## Ukko

Kieran said:


> Why don't you, if you can't be reasonable. Taggart and Ingenue are two great posters, who add immensely to this site. Insulting them says less about them, if you catch my drift...


Thing is, it wasn't an insult. I&T aren't a couple? _Ingenue_ didn't describe my word choices as 'Elizabethan? Just what are you folks going on about?

There, I've said my piece on that subject. Just to make sure I don't damage any more delicate egos, I'll take steps.


----------



## moody

Kieran said:


> Because if people feel free to insult my friends, then I feel free to reply. That's okay with you, is it?


No it's not for one thing you may get a situation where everyone is accusing the others.
Apart from that there was no insult.
Also I object highly to you insulting my friends---I presume you have reported this insult?


----------



## Kieran

moody said:


> No it's not for one thing you may get a situation where everyone is accusing the others.
> Apart from that there was no insult.
> Also I object highly to you insulting my friends---I presume you have reported this insult?


Ingenue complained because there was no insult? I don't think so. It was a definite jibe, and a spiteful one at that. They're two distinct people who say different things here and should be treated with respect, and welcomed for their views. Ingenue and Taggert are rare people and only ever bring light and humour to this forum, and serious views on music.

And no, I didn't report it because I didn't want to. That okay with you, too?


----------



## moody

Kieran said:


> Ingenue complained because there was no insult? I don't think so. It was a definite jibe, and a spiteful one at that. They're two distinct people who say different things here and should be treated with respect, and welcomed for their views. Ingenue and Taggert are rare people and only ever bring light and humour to this forum, and serious views on music.
> 
> And no, I didn't report it because I didn't want to. That okay with you, too?


No it's not OK with me,you are in no position to lay down the law and in any case I see no insult---OK?
I shall report you for trolling however if you continue because you are obviously trying to stir up an angry retort.


----------



## Kieran

moody said:


> No it's not OK with me,you are in no position to lay down the law and in any case I see no insult---OK?
> I shall report you for trolling however if you continue because you are obviously trying to stir up an angry retort.


Go ahead, son, it's irrelevant to me what you do. You're not paying attention but that's okay too...


----------



## Ingélou

Peace, joy and love to everyone.

1. Thank you to my friends, especially Kieran, who have been saying supportive things. I do appreciate it. For the record, I never want to quarrel with anyone and I have not reported anyone for anything on this thread.

2. Hilltroll and moody are posters that I respect hugely for their knowledge of music. I may disagree with them, but to my knowledge I have never insulted either.

3. I would like Hilltroll (*please* - a polite request) to use my name - Ingenue, or Mollie - and my husband's name - Taggart, or John - not a compound, Taginue, which in any case is not clear to many users. This is because I am an individual with my own opinions and my posts are different from Taggart's. His are more scholarly, mine more anecdotal. It is also because women in Britain fought a long political battle to be recognized as having rights apart from their husbands and I think that the fact should be respected.

4. I didn't actually understand Hilltroll's Elizabethan reference - nothing on this thread, though I may have said that English in the Appalachians still shows signs of Elizabethan usage, as the linguists say. This is not an insult. It's a compliment - they preserve a purer form of the language.

5. I've been out helping my aged mother to sort through her books so I've missed all the fun. But why not get back to the thread? And please everyone - have a nice day!


----------



## PetrB

If a collegial member who is friends with you all may speak his mind:

If the supposed perpetrator of said supposed insult and the supposed insulted parties don't mind, I'm finding a lot of this beyond infantile.

The allegedly offended are also big boys and girls, and I'm sure are bold enough to speak for themselves, which they have.

As well, if the community cannot sustain (or ignore) a few curmudgeonly egoist jibes doled out because of imagined insults, especially as compared to some of the outrageously ill-said and planned mean-spirited things which are also commonplace enough on this site as found from time to time (none from those involved in this particular fracas) it may as well as well roll over and die.

Enough, its all horribly off-topic, tedious and boring.

Helluva night early a.m., though. I'm off to sweet dreams, where people I like are not bickering amongst themselves.


----------



## Kieran

PetrB, nicely said! :tiphat:


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

PetrB said:


> Yet another example of more than escapeable reasoning. Anyway, shouldn't it be a plural bisex or gender neutral pronoun? Do we need a new word for this, another one where everyone can chime in with "To me, this means _______ . "
> 
> Smiley faces, everyone.
> 
> P.s. anyone bother to track how far this has gone from the less than wisp of music relevance the OP lacked in the first place?


Learn how to spell 'escapable' before you start attempting to insult others. I meant that personal insults shouldn't be posted in the forum, what's wrong with that?


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

moody said:


> In a forum like what exactly ?


In a forum where the main discussion topic is music.


----------



## Ingélou

To get back to the thread-topic (she said hastily...)

Soldiers of the past sometimes were musicians. When I was in the Highlands last year we went to my clan museum at the Falls of Bruar & saw a curiosity - a 'travelling violin' recovered from Sir John Cope's carriage, which was captured after his defeat at Prestonpans.

I've been googling for a picture of it - can't find one - but can tell you it looked like a wooden bottle with a long neck & pegs for strings. Here's another example, not Cope's:









But here's the conundrum - the man was a general and a keen violinist, but he was ignominiously defeated. So does my post support the Navy Seal's view, or Musician's repudiation of it? Answers on a postcard, please, and the first one out of the hat gets the chance to hear me fiddle 'The Bluebells of Scotland.'


----------



## Kieran

The Spartans used go to war playing instruments something like a flute. They played soft music as they marched. Then they battered their foe senseless.

Nuff said!


----------



## Musician

Kieran said:


> The Spartans used go to war playing instruments something like a flute. They played soft music as they marched. Then they battered their foe senseless.
> 
> Nuff said!


And the walls of Jericho were destroyed and breached by the sound of the Ram's Horns that the Priests played while circling the city 7 times...

NUFF SAID!!!


----------



## Guest

So I think we got this thread sorted then? Most of us would agree that many fine musicians have been effective warriors and _vice versa_. Let's be honest, a grunt (jargon for a jarhead/ a solidier, Navy Seal or whatever) is a grunt. Add an instrument, and the grunt is transformed into pure melody. There is a big difference thought between professional grunts and the conscripted.


----------



## moody

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> In a forum where the main discussion topic is music.


Is it really, you could have fooled me often.


----------



## Ingélou

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> In a forum where the main discussion topic is music.


:cheers: And what a fabulous forum it is, you beautiful people - especially when harmony:angel: is restored.

Of course, it's all music really - the music of the spheres, 'the music of what is', a dance to the music of time.
Just lay off the cymbals...


----------



## HaydnBearstheClock

moody said:


> Is it really, you could have fooled me often.


As I've said before, I'm not going to waste my time on your provocations.


----------



## Logos

PetrB said:


> So you equate grace of coordinated movement as _effeminate_? Too funny.
> 
> Classical ballet is about as mannered as it gets, anyway, filled with artifice and conceits from earlier centuries.
> 
> I suppose you think if a man sits and crosses his legs at the knees that that is effeminate? News flash, pretty much only in the U.K. and former colonies populated mainly by the Caucasian emigrants from the U.K. (Britain, Canada) is that artificial convention in place -- leaving the rest of all the males blithely crossing their legs at the knees, oblivious to the artificial construct, leaving the rest of the the world effeminate, I guess.
> 
> It is precisely that too many simple-minded men and women think of being an orchestral player as not a 'manly' profession (let alone concerns of parents for what kind of income their son might make) who discourage or do not support the son who could have gone there.
> 
> The women players will "Get Married anyway," so whether they make it or not matters less. Let the little girl have her violin and lessons, discourage the boy. Sexism, and stupid sexism, in action right there.
> 
> So what used to be a man's profession is now thought of as effeminate, something for sissies, and financially far less secure or viable -- keep junior from it but let the girls have it. This is far from men being effeminate or masculine. It is parents of both genders (and perhaps a collective social attitude) working in concert with stupidity which sets up such a situation.


I do not say that the arts are intrinsically feminine. On the contrary my point is that this distinction is entirely arbitrary, as I tried to illustrate by pointing out how the arts attracted masculine men in the past, whereas they attract feminine men now. With all due respect, I think you really are missing the main line of my argument.


----------



## Logos

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> So are you effeminate, if I may ask? If this is so ok, why won't you just admit that you are?
> Thinking effeminacy is 'bad' doesn't make one sexist - it just means one is aware of, and wants to preserve, one's own gender role in society.


I'd say my masculinity is at the average level by today's standards. My personal 'role' isn't really important to an abstract argument, especially if one thinks that having a role at all is more important than preserving any particular role.


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> I do not say that the arts are intrinsically feminine. On the contrary my point is that this distinction is entirely arbitrary, as I tried to illustrate by pointing out how the arts attracted masculine men in the past, whereas they attract feminine men now. With all due respect, I think you really are missing the main line of my argument.


I doubt that Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer would be described as 'effeminate'. But the problem with your analysis is that I suspect you're drawing your definition of 'artists' too narrowly - you wouldn't include Jerry and Michael in the first place, so it matters not that they are not 'effeminate'.

So, just what do you mean by 'the arts' and 'artists'. Who/What is in and out?


----------



## Logos

MacLeod said:


> I doubt that Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer would be described as 'effeminate'. But the problem with your analysis is that I suspect you're drawing your definition of 'artists' too narrowly - you wouldn't include Jerry and Michael in the first place, so it matters not that they are not 'effeminate'.
> 
> So, just what do you mean by 'the arts' and 'artists'. Who/What is in and out?


I mean the high arts which emerged out of the western aristocratic-ecclesiastical tradition. Those arts once attracted normal men, now they (or what remains of them) attract women and odd or effeminate men.


----------



## BurningDesire

This is a response to everything Logos has said since arriving at this site:






Also the constant sexism and classism gets a bit old dude.


----------



## Logos

BurningDesire said:


> Also the constant sexism and classism gets a bit old dude.


What have I said that is sexist? I don't mean to be rude, but I have to ask do you know what that word means?


----------



## Guest

Logos said:


> I mean the high arts which emerged out of the western aristocratic-ecclesiastical tradition.


That's what I thought and that's all I need to know. Thanks.


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## BurningDesire

Logos said:


> What have I said that is sexist? I don't mean to be rude, but I have to ask do you know what that word means?


You make comments about how great old art was, and how back in those times you had these manly-men-of-manly-action who were artists as well as other things, and then you make comments about how horrible art is nowadays and how horrible society is, and you comment about how women and feminine men are the artists nowadays and those who enjoy the art that you deem so bad. You constantly conflate femininity with being "weird" or weak.


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## Logos

BurningDesire said:


> You make comments about how great old art was, and how back in those times you had these manly-men-of-manly-action who were artists as well as other things, and then you make comments about how horrible art is nowadays and how horrible society is, and you comment about how women and feminine men are the artists nowadays and those who enjoy the art that you deem so bad.


I never said women and effeminate men were bad or inferior. It simply didn't happen. I made cold factual statements about societal trends. You're reading other things into it.

Now I might ask you, perhaps you think manly men are inferior to women and effeminate men--do you?

Side note: does this mean you acknowledge that artists tend to be women and effeminate men today?


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## HaydnBearstheClock

Stop arguing about all of this, it's just silly. It doesn't matter what some Navy Seal said, enjoy your music and don't generalize too much.


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## Piwikiwi

I rather be a effeminate violin player than someone who lives or dies at the whim of a politician.


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## Logos

Piwikiwi said:


> I rather be a effeminate violin player than someone who lives or dies at the whim of a politician.


Then you would rather live or die at the whim of an electorate? What's the difference?


----------



## Ramako

Logos said:


> I never said women and effeminate men were bad or inferior. It simply didn't happen. I made cold factual statements about societal trends. You're reading other things into it.
> 
> Now I might ask you, perhaps you think manly men are inferior to women and effeminate men--do you?
> 
> Side note: does this mean you acknowledge that artists tend to be women and effeminate men today?


You may have made cold statements, but they were not factual.

When asked to prove that modern musicians are female or effeminate, you said it was self-evident. We don't think it is self-evident. That sort of defeats the point of self-evidentness I think.

In my university the gender ratio for music students is approximately 50-50, which I recall is fairly normal from when I looked into these things. In my college, the ratio is 3/1, for composers 5/1. Some of the men are a bit effeminate, but many aren't.

In fact, music was far more associated with femininity in the past. Scholars have suggested that Beethoven was so ostentatiously masculine in much of his music to compensate for the prevailing association of music with femininity. I think that's a load of nonsense, but it illustrates that the association of music and the feminine is a historical fact, and was much stronger in the past than it is now, and there are many more instances showing the strength of this connection, depending on the time and the place - but I doubt that you would say Beethoven's was a 'bad' time for music.

Now, you can talk about ballet dancers and artists, but that is a different matter to musicians and is most likely to simply confuse the issue.


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## Piwikiwi

Logos said:


> Then you would rather live or die at the whim of an electorate? What's the difference?


Since when do effeminate violinist die at the hand of the electorate?


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## superhorn

It takes a much ,much longer training period to become a first-class professional classical musician
thn it does to become a Navy Seal . Top notch classical musicians typically start from childhood 
and then go to music schools for undergraduate and grduate training . This may not be as physically
challenging as becoming a Navy Seal but by any standards it's anything but easy .
Classical musicians don't just study their instruments, but harmony, counterpoint, form, orchestration,
music history etc . It's a heck of a lot of arduous work .


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## Logos

Ramako said:


> When asked to prove that modern musicians are female or effeminate, you said it was self-evident. We don't think it is self-evident. That sort of defeats the point of self-evidentness I think.


But do you deny it? You think male musicians are no more effeminate than the average male today? You really think that? Obviously there are more women today in professional music--you conceded that I think. The makeup of your particular music class is a mere anecdote.


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## deggial

Logos said:


> You're also trying to equate primitive art with the individual expression modern art seeks. There is no equivalence there. Even primitive art served tribal society. Modern art serves only to ridicule society or ignore it.


you're just making blank statements. I equated the potency of artistic expression from different time periods not individuality or lack thereof from one period of another - I didn't even get into that. As to the place of art in modern society, talk about a simplistic statement.


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## Logos

Piwikiwi said:


> Since when do effeminate violinist die at the hand of the electorate?


For instance when Muslim populations elect those who believe in putting homosexuals to death, and do so. It's democratically sanctioned.

Do you believe then that democracy is good, except when it isn't good?


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## Logos

deggial said:


> you're just making blank statements. I equated the potency of artistic expression from different time periods not individuality or lack thereof from one period of another - I didn't even get into that. As to the place of art in modern society, talk about a simplistic statement.


Let's go over this:

I said great art comes from particular kinds of aristocratic-priestly controlled societies.

You said no, even cave paintings are beautiful--implying that this was an exception to my rule about great art coming from certain kinds of societies.

I countered and said, in fact anthropologists have shown that those paintings were made by particular shamanistic/priestly groups for a religious purpose rather than common people, which proves rather than contradicts my first point.

Then, apparently, you got confused and here we are.


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## Guest

Logos said:


> For instance when Muslim populations elect those who believe in putting homosexuals to death, and do so. It's democratically sanctioned.
> 
> Do you believe then that democracy is good, except when it isn't good?


Are you now suggesting that 'effeminacy=homosexual'?


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## Logos

MacLeod said:


> Are you now suggesting that 'effeminacy=homosexual'?


He said that one could die at the hands of a politician. Since virtually all countries not in a state of anarchy are controlled by politicians, I assumed he meant unelected political tyrants. I then made the point that elected politicians can be just as cruel as unelected ones. The notion of effeminacy played no part in my point.


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## Manxfeeder

Back to the topic: As they say, Booya!


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## moody

Piwikiwi said:


> Since when do effeminate violinist die at the hand of the electorate?


When they play badly in an effeminate fashion.


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## moody

I've seen some rubbish in my time but this beats all.


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## PetrB

HaydnBearstheClock said:


> Learn how to spell 'escapeable' before you start attempting to insult others. I meant that personal insults shouldn't be posted in the forum, what's wrong with that?


Spelling or not, that certainly is not the point. If you meant drop the sandbox era bickering, I completely missed your intent, even though your spelling was correct. Re: your intended message, "play nice: don't fight." I could not be in agreement with you more.


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## Kieran

Logos said:


> For instance when Muslim populations elect those who believe in putting homosexuals to death, and do so. It's democratically sanctioned.
> 
> Do you believe then that democracy is good, except when it isn't good?


Or when it's rigged....


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## Logos

Kieran said:


> Or when it's rigged....


Sure, but cruel men can be elected with perfect legitimacy. Functioning, legal democracy is no guarantee against any political evil.


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## HaydnBearstheClock

PetrB said:


> Spelling or not, that certainly is not the point. If you meant drop the sandbox era bickering, I completely missed your intent, even though your spelling was correct. Re: your intended message, "play nice: don't fight." I could not be in agreement with you more.


Ok, good, but how did you understand what I wrote? I'm glad that we agree on this point.


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## Musician

And peace has rested upon the land for 40 years...:wave:


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## Guest

Pikiwiki asked



Piwikiwi said:


> Since when do effeminate violinist die at the hand of the electorate?


You said,



Logos said:


> For instance when Muslim populations elect those who believe in putting homosexuals to death, and do so. It's democratically sanctioned.


In other words, you made a connection between effeminate violinists and homosexuals. I asked you to confirm:



MacLeod said:


> Are you now suggesting that 'effeminacy=homosexual'?


You did not confirm: in fact you denied that 'effeminacy was any part of your point, even though anyone following your exchange with pikiwiki would see that it must have been - possibly inadvertently.



Logos said:


> *He *said that one could die at the hands of a politician. Since virtually all countries not in a state of anarchy are controlled by politicians, I assumed he meant unelected political tyrants. I then made the point that elected politicians can be just as cruel as unelected ones. The notion of effeminacy played no part in my point.


It was _you _who was giving an example of someone dieing at the hands of a politician, not pikiwiki.


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## Logos

MacLeod said:


> In other words, you made a connection between effeminate violinists and homosexuals.
> 
> It was _you _who was giving an example of someone dieing at the hands of a politician, not pikiwiki.


In truth I have no idea what connection that poster was trying to make between effeminacy and dying at the hands of a politician. I thought he was saying it's better to live in a democratic society in which one can do as one likes rather than be controlled by a cruel, and (presumably) unelected politician. I then made the point about democratically elected leaders killing homosexuals as an example of democratically sanctioned cruelty. His usage of the word effeminacy had nothing to do with my choice of that example.


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## Musician

Lets get this straight, there are 6,000,000,000 people on earth, one just can imagine the multitudes of opinions, but hey we are circling on the same ball at the same speed...

:wave:


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## PetrB

Logos said:


> In truth I have no idea what connection that poster was trying to make between effeminacy and dying at the hands of a politician. I thought he was saying it's better to live in a democratic society in which one can do as one likes rather than be controlled by a cruel, and (presumably) unelected politician. I then made the point about democratically elected leaders killing homosexuals as an example of democratically sanctioned cruelty. His usage of the word effeminacy had nothing to do with my choice of that example.


Democracy is like relationships, there are about as many definitions for it as there are people / places who have one.


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## PetrB

That depends, quite literally, upon where you stand 

"The speed at which the earth spins varies upon your latitudinal location on the planet. If you're standing at the north pole, the speed is almost zero but at the equator, where the circumference of the earth is greatest, the speed is about 1,038 miles per hour (1,670 kph). The mid-latitudes of the U.S. and Europe speed along at 700 to 900 mph (1125 to 1450 kph)"

The planet's speed in circling the sun, well, there everyone is on the same bus.


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## Guest

Logos said:


> In truth I have no idea what connection that poster was trying to make between effeminacy and dying at the hands of a politician. I thought he was saying it's better to live in a democratic society in which one can do as one likes rather than be controlled by a cruel, and (presumably) unelected politician. I then made the point about democratically elected leaders killing homosexuals as an example of democratically sanctioned cruelty. His usage of the word effeminacy had nothing to do with my choice of that example.


I just knew it would be either my failure to understand your point or pikiwiki's for not posting the correct question to the answer you wanted to give.


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## Musician

PetrB said:


> Democracy is like relationships, there are about as many definitions for it as there are people / places who have one.


Democracy is not a matter of 'elections' democracy is a civilization and a way of life, thus Nazi Germany and Arab dictatorships can't be considered 'democratic' just because they were elected 'democratically', if a civilized way of life will not follow then that one day of elections means nothing. Rights of the Citizens, Rule of law, freedom of speech and press, and so on is what defines a True Democracy.


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## Logos

MacLeod said:


> I just knew it would be either my failure to understand your point or pikiwiki's for not posting the correct question to the answer you wanted to give.


Would you rather that I lie and say there is a connection where there was none? It just wasn't there. No offense is meant to any party. And that poster didn't have a question--they made an assertion of a preference and I commented upon it.


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## Logos

Musician said:


> Democracy is not a matter of 'elections' democracy is a civilization and a way of life, thus Nazi Germany and Arab dictatorships can't be considered 'democratic' just because they were elected 'democratically', if a civilized way of life will not follow then that one day of elections means nothing. Rights of the Citizens, Rule of law, freedom of speech and press, and so on is what defines a True Democracy.


They may not be liberal democracies but they are democratic for it is the voting people that sets them in motion. The Athenians wouldn't be considered truly democratic by your definition and they invented the very term.


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## Guest

Logos said:


> And that poster didn't have a question--they made an assertion of a preference and I commented upon it.


Then we must be talking about different posts. I had posted the whole sequence I was referring to, just to be sure. You didn't correct me, or refer to the post you must actually have been talking about.


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## Logos

MacLeod said:


> Then we must be talking about different posts. I had posted the whole sequence I was referring to, just to be sure. You didn't correct me, or refer to the post you must actually have been talking about.


"I rather be a effeminate violin player than someone who lives or dies at the whim of a politician."

This is where the word effeminate was introduced. I'm not sure what poster meant in connecting it to dying at the hands of a politician. I thought it was simply a vague endorsement of liberal democracy as opposed to dictatorship and I commented on it as such.

Do you equate homosexuality and effeminacy? Undoubtedly western homosexuals today tend to be effeminate, but this is merely a characteristic of these times. Ancient greco-roman homosexuality was often thought of as hyper masculine. I see nothing intrinsically feminine or masculine about it. It's all tied to the culture of particular times.


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## Musician

Logos said:


> They may not be liberal democracies but they are democratic for it is the voting people that sets them in motion. The Athenians wouldn't be considered truly democratic by your definition and they invented the very term.


The word Democracy is indeed a Greek word, and no they wouldnt be what I call Modern Democracy, because Modern Democracy as we know it is more similar to The Jewish Civilization and its way of governance then that of the Greek way. Mainly because the Jewish Monarch was answerable to the People, The Prophet of that day, and of course to the 120 Assembly of Sages The Sanhedrin, who limited and controlled the Kings Power. Note how King Saul, for example lost his Kingdom forever, by the makings of the Prophet Samuel, who had told him the word of God, and he was replaced by King David.

The Jewish version of Democracy also had actual Laws on Slavery, and gave some pretty strong punishments to those who treated slaves as a cattle, or beat them, or did anything that may physically hurt them. Not so the Greeks or the Romans that followed, they had a pretty twisted form of Democracy, it was a sham. The Emperor had almost absolute power, in fact he was a dictator. The Senate was his grand Pappet, and he pretty much could do whatever he wanted. Slaves were treated sometimes worse then animals, one can hardly call this a Democracy, at least in the meaning that we are accustomed to in our modern times.


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## Guest

Logos said:


> Do you equate homosexuality and effeminacy?


Let me rephrase the question. Do you automatically conclude that all effeminate men must be homosexual?


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## Logos

Musician said:


> The word Democracy is indeed a Greek word, and no they wouldnt be what I call Modern Democracy, because Modern Democracy as we know it is more similar to The Jewish Civilization and its way of governance then that of the Greek way. Mainly because the Jewish Monarch was answerable to the People, The Prophet of that day, and of course to the 120 Assembly of Sages The Sanhedrin, who limited and controlled the Kings Power. Note how King Saul, for example lost his Kingdom forever, by the makings of the Prophet Samuel, who had told him the word of God, and he was replaced by King David.


I'd call that theocracy, not democracy. In fact it's the quintessential example of theocracy. No ancient form of democracy, jewish or gentile, is quite the same as modern liberal democracy. I think we agree there.


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## Logos

MacLeod said:


> Let me rephrase the question. Do you automatically conclude that all effeminate men must be homosexual?


No, not all by any means. But in western countries today, it is more likely for an effeminate man to be homosexual.


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## Musician

Logos said:


> I'd call that theocracy, not democracy. In fact it's the quintessential example of theocracy.


That's where we differ. You pay too much attention at the words but little to the content. My point was that a Democracy as we know it today is a way of life, a certain framework and accepted norms within a free society. So when you put Jewish and Roman Civilizations, up against each other, I believe that the Jewish version is more in sync with our way of life, then that of the Roman way of governance and life style. So even though it was Greece who Coined the word, The Jews were the ones who actually leaved up to those Ideals in the context of what we in the West consider a real Democracy.

Ask any American what it means to be a democratic state? he will tell you that everyone is free, there are no slaves, freedom of speech and religion, and so on...That can't go hand in hand with Rome or Greece who had tens of thousands of slaves, with no rights whatsoever, and sometimes treated worse then animals. If we were objective spectators watching the life of greece and rome from a distance we would have never considered them as free or democratic, because they simply weren't.


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## PetrB

Logos said:


> No, not all by any means. But in western countries today, it is more likely for an effeminate man to be homosexual.


President George Bush Sr. being, of course, the perfect example which proves your supposed theory.


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## Logos

Musician said:


> Ask any American what it means to be a democratic state? he will tell you that everyone is free, there are no slaves, freedom of speech and religion, and so on...That can't go hand in hand with Rome or Greece who had tens of thousands of slaves, with no rights whatsoever, and sometimes treated worse then animals. If we were objective spectators watching the life of greece and rome from a distance we would have never considered them as free or democratic, because they simply weren't.


The Israelites did have slaves, and they certainly didn't have freedom of religion. The Bible praises the cultic purges of heathens as I'm sure you know. The books of Kings are full of such instances.

It's hard to know exactly how governance in ancient Israel worked as a practical affair since the historical books of the Bible aren't purely political since its descriptions of political events are only incidental to proving ultimately theological points. With its frequent use of the death penalty for cultic offenses, the obsession with cultic purity and prophecy, the generally low position of women, I don't see how a modern 'democrat' could be happy in Old Testament times.

The Greeks and Romans were not modern democrats, but neither were the ancient Israelites.


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## Logos

PetrB said:


> President George Bush Sr. being, of course, the perfect example which proves your supposed theory.


There's only room for one man in that family, and that's Barbara.


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## Musician

Logos said:


> The Israelites did have slaves, and they certainly didn't have freedom of religion. The Bible praises the cultic purges of heathens as I'm sure you know. The books of Kings are full of such instances.
> 
> It's hard to know exactly how governance in ancient Israel worked as a practical affair since the historical books of the Bible aren't political since its descriptions of political events are only incidental to proving ultimately theological points. With its frequent use of the death penalty for cultic offenses, the obsession with cultic purity and prophecy, the generally low position of women, I don't see how a modern 'democrat' could be happy in Old Testament times.


Yes they did have 'slaves' but there is some context you're are missing. They were not 'slaves' in the meaning that you understand.

There is a philosophy behind it. If someone stole, the rule is that you have to pay it back. What happens if the thief has no money or valuables? The Torah in this instance gave the thief the chance to pay back to the victim by offering him services for a specific period of time. They were not services that were not protected by law. In fact the Talmud states several rules and regulations as how the owner is required to treat his new 'Servant'. He can't beat him, physically hurt him in any way, treat him disrespectfully as the verse says :"He is your Brother'. There are even instances where the owner has to put the servant even before himself and his family, when it comes to accommodations and even food.

The Torah explains what is the rational behind all of this. It wants the thief to understand how much the owner is going out of his way to accommodate him and treat him in dignity, when the truth is that he is not deserving of any of this good treatment, after all he stole from him, why should the owner show him any favor? With this in mind, the Servant will have a spiritual awakening, to see that he is repaid in kindness for his bad ways, and how this good owner was not deserving of been a victim of his theft, he will then repent and will return to be a productive and honest member of the society. That's the biblical meaning of 'Slave'. I'm sure you didnt know that.

As for women and they have to be treated, don't even let me go there, there are so many requirements on how to treat a Jewish wife with so much respect, whole entire large chunks of Talmud are devoted just for that, no wonder in the Jewish home, the women are the bosses. Ask amy Jewish guy who's the boss, and you'll get the same answer :"My Wife".

As for capital punishments, well you don't seem to think that the United States is not a democracy because it enforces the law, why would you then consider the Jewish Civilization as anti democratic if they too enforced the Law.

Mind you the Talmud writes explicitly that any Court that initiated a capital punishment is a 'murderous court'. The Talmud recalls that capital punishments were so rare in Israel, that maybe it happened only once in 500 years. No one rushed or was eager to carry out these punishments, and the court had to go extreme lengths and long periods of investigations until it came to that decision, and even that was once in 500 years.


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## joen_cph

(Never mind ...................................................)


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## Musician

joen_cph said:


> (Never mind, it´s going off topic anyway)


Look at the footnotes, not one serious Rabbi/Scholar that knows and understands these things, with the entire context are mentioned. Wouldn't give this any value.


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## Musician

Ok now, lets stir back to the topic...


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## joen_cph

Musician said:


> Look at the footnotes, not one serious Rabbi/Scholar that knows and understands these things, with the entire context are mentioned. Wouldn't give this any value.


I was giving the Wikipedia links on "Slavery and the Bible"and "Jews and Slavery", but decided to delete the links for a number of reasons. Those interested in the subject can check them and compare them to the posts above.


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## Musician

joen_cph said:


> I was giving the Wikipedia links on "Slavery and the Bible"and "Jews and Slavery", but decided to delete the links for a number of reasons. Those interested in the subject can check them and compare them to the posts above.


Wikipedia is not a serious source for history or understanding for any religion. And don't you find it strange that that the footnotes didnt mention one single competent Rabbi as a source for their diatribe?

Wouldnt you find it strange if you used Wikipedia to learn about composition and no single composer wold have been used as a source in their footnotes to explain anything about composition?


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## joen_cph

Since you two apparently haven´t had this discussion before on the other forum, I´ll leave it there .

But in this case I do trust Wikipedia a good deal, and it provides information about Jews having "ordinary" slaves etc also.


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## Musician

joen_cph said:


> Since you two apparently haven´t had this discussion before on the other forum, I´ll leave it there .
> 
> But in this case I do trust Wikipedia a good deal, and it provides information about Jews having "ordinary" slaves etc also.


Some Jews did, as Christians did and as Muslims and as all people did, but what some Jews did is not a reflection of Jewish Policy or Jewish Law.


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## KenOC

Musician said:


> Some Jews did, as Christians did and as Muslims and as all people did, but what some Jews did is not a reflection of Jewish Policy or Jewish Law.


The OT actually contains some statements of policy re slaves. One I remember has to do with the treatment of female slaves and seems rather progressive for its time. Too lazy to look it up...

Here it is, from Exodus: "And if a man sells his daughter to be a female slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has betrothed her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. And if he has betrothed her to his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes another wife, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marriage rights."


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## Logos

Musician said:


> Yes they did have 'slaves' but there is some context you're are missing. They were not 'slaves' in the meaning that you understand.
> 
> There is a philosophy behind it. If someone stole, the rule is that you have to pay it back. What happens if the thief has no money or valuables? The Torah in this instance gave the thief the chance to pay back to the victim by offering him services for a specific period of time. They were not services that were not protected by law. In fact the Talmud states several rules and regulations as how the owner is required to treat his new 'Servant'. He can't beat him, physically hurt him in any way, treat him disrespectfully as the verse says :"He is your Brother'. There are even instances where the owner has to put the servant even before himself and his family, when it comes to accommodations and even food.
> 
> The Torah explains what is the rational behind all of this. It wants the thief to understand how much the owner is going out of his way to accommodate him and treat him in dignity, when the truth is that he is not deserving of any of this good treatment, after all he stole from him, why should the owner show him any favor? With this in mind, the Servant will have a spiritual awakening, to see that he is repaid in kindness for his bad ways, and how this good owner was not deserving of been a victim of his theft, he will then repent and will return to be a productive and honest member of the society. That's the biblical meaning of 'Slave'. I'm sure you didnt know that.
> 
> As for women and they have to be treated, don't even let me go there, there are so many requirements on how to treat a Jewish wife with so much respect, whole entire large chunks of Talmud are devoted just for that, no wonder in the Jewish home, the women are the bosses. Ask amy Jewish guy who's the boss, and you'll get the same answer :"My Wife".
> 
> As for capital punishments, well you don't seem to think that the United States is not a democracy because it enforces the law, why would you then consider the Jewish Civilization as anti democratic if they too enforced the Law.


The very nature of Jewish law is different from the nature of modern western law in that it is religious in basis, to say nothing of the influence of prophecy and augury on political evaluations, the priestly classes, the violent religious purges, such as Jehu's slaughter of the Omride dynasty. These essential differences is profoundly in contradiction with modern democracy. No ancient civilization was governed on modern, secular democratic principles.

You're also bringing in a great many later sources which I might argue were concerned for obvious reasons with portraying their ancient past in an unrealistically favorable light. The time of David, they must insist, was the most perfect of times for religious reasons.


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## Musician

Short explanation sheds some light about this...
Short Video...
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/1457459/jewish/Slavery-in-the-Torah.htm


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## deggial

Logos said:


> I countered and said, in fact anthropologists have shown that those paintings were made by particular shamanistic/priestly groups for a religious purpose rather than common people, which proves rather than contradicts my first point.


your first point was that art of the aristocracy from later periods (classical, likely) was some sort of pinnacle of creation that none of the peasant art _or_ contemporary - aka, glib - art could compete with.


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## Musician

Logos said:


> The very nature of Jewish law is different from the nature of modern western law in that it is religious in basis, to say nothing of the influence of prophecy and augury on political evaluations, the priestly classes, the violent religious purges, such as Jehu's slaughter of the Omride dynasty. These essential differences is profoundly in contradiction with modern democracy. No ancient civilization was governed on modern, secular democratic principles.
> 
> You're also bringing in a great many later sources which I might argue were concerned for obvious reasons with portraying their ancient past in an unrealistically favorable light. The time of David, they must insist, was the most perfect of times for religious reasons.


I never argued that it was the same, but if we use the method of comparison, then between Rome/Greece and Israel, then today's modern Democracies are more similar to a degree to Israel's understanding of Democracy then that of Rome's or Greece, that was the entire point , now we can all move on...


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## Logos

deggial said:


> your first point was that art of the aristocracy from later periods (classical, likely) was some sort of pinnacle of creation that none of the peasant art _or_ contemporary - aka, glib - art could compete with.


Yes, precisely. Then you brought up the cave paintings. I adduced anthropological testimony to the effect that they aren't 'peasant' art in the first place. Then you got confused apparently. Then I went over it again. Then you told me my first point for some reason. Then I went over it again and here we are.


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## mamascarlatti

In case anyone missed this addition to the ToS:



> We also will not condone any religious and/or political discussions on the open boards. These can happen only within the confines of the Social Groups.


This means that long discussions about religion, the bible and Jewish history belong to the social groups, as do discussions of democracy and George Bush.

This thread is closed for extreme digression off-topic.


----------

