# POLL: Greatest Works of Art of All Time?



## AfterHours

Okay, ready for a poll that may very well drive you hair-pulling, thumb-twiddling, list-making batty? 

Please submit what you feel are the _Top 50 Greatest Works of Art of All Time_.

Yes, that's correct  You can use any qualitative criteria you like, whether so-called "best" or "favorite", or a mix of the two, etc. Personally, for my selections they are one and the same, but some people view them separately, so I'm totally fine with you giving a submission with your choice of either, or with consideration to both points-of-view. Just please don't be insincere with your actual submission. I am curious to see what we come up with, even if it will likely lean towards Classical music more than other mediums. This probability is also why I felt this most belonged in the Classical Music forum.

If you don't want to submit a full list of 50, you are welcome to submit less (but no less than 10). Just know that your submission will be weighted towards the final results based on how many entries it has. Also, the higher the work is ranked on your list, the more points will be awarded to it in the final tally, so please note that the order you submit them in matters towards the overall outcome.

_Any_ work of art of _any genre_ may be included. Classical music, Rock, Jazz, Paintings/Visual Art, Film/TV Shows, Literature/Poetry, etc. It can even be _all_ Classical or any other genre -- it's totally up to you. But, _only_ whole works may be submitted. For instance, please do not submit single movements of a Classical Work, or single chapters from a book, or single panels from a painting triptych, etc. For Classical Works, single songs or movements or cantatas, etc, are fine in cases where they do constitute the entire work released by the artist. For Rock/Jazz or non-Classical music submissions, please submit only whole albums, and no compilations or bootlegs or otherwise "unofficial" releases. Officially released Live albums are fine. Please, no _singles_, unless they were _never_ included on an official album or were only included on a compilation. For TV shows, please limit your selection _by season_ (such as The Simpsons or Seinfeld) unless it is all one truly continuous story (such as Lost). Also, for works that had multiple versions, please only choose one version for your list (such as for Janocek's Glagolitic Mass or Bruckner's 8th Symphony, or Ridley Scott's Blade Runner, etc). You do not need to note which version it is (if multiple versions are voted for by different users, they will still all go to the same work of Art), but I do want to ensure that one doesn't list multiple versions on a single list, thus increasing its votes per person. Essentially, what it comes down to is what the artist considered to be the whole work, even if its parts were created over an unusually long period or at entirely separate times (such as Bach's Mass in B Minor or Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel). However, if you have any questions as to qualification of a particular work, feel free to ask me here in the forum.

This is a poll where you simply use the thread to post your list and I will tally the results. I will announce a deadline at some point, and will give you at least a couple weeks notice when I do.

One last thing. Please submit your entries as follows so that it is as user friendly as possible for me to copy, paste and tally:

Title - Artist (Year of Completion) 
Ex: Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)

Good luck on coming up with your list without driving yourself a little crazy :tiphat:


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## AfterHours

My submission:

1.	Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgement) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541) 
2.	Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824) 
3.	Symphony No. 9 in D Major - Gustav Mahler (1910) 
4.	Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749)
5.	Peasants' War Panorama - Werner Tubke (1987) [aka, "Early Bourgeois Revolution in Germany"] 
6.	Requiem - Guisseppe Verdi (1874) 
7.	Symphony No. 9 in C Major "The Great" - Franz Schubert (1826) 
8.	Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859) 
9.	Symphony No. 15 in A Major - Dmitri Shostakovich (1971) 
10.	The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963) 
11.	Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band (1969) 
12.	Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt (1974) 
13.	String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1825) 
14.	Citizen Kane - Orson Welles (1941) 
15.	A Love Supreme - John Coltrane (1964) 
16.	Faust - Faust (1971) 
17.	The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground (1967) 
18.	String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826) 
19.	Astral Weeks - Van Morrison (1968) 
20.	Parable of Arable Land - Red Crayola (1967) 
21.	Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808) 
22.	Symphony No. 4 in E Minor - Johannes Brahms (1884) 
23.	The Doors - The Doors (1967) 
24.	Unit Structures - Cecil Taylor (1966) 
25.	Fidelio - Ludwig van Beethoven (1805-1814)
26.	Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1787)
27.	Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner (1876)
28.	Metropolis - Fritz Lang (1927) ["The Complete Metropolis", 147 minutes] 
29.	Lorca - Tim Buckley (1970) 
30.	Ascension - John Coltrane (1965) 
31.	The Garden of Earthly Delights - Hieronymus Bosch (circa 1500) 
32.	Escalator Over The Hill - Carla Bley (1971) 
33.	Twin Infinitives - Royal Trux (1990) 
34.	String Quintet in C Major - Franz Schubert (1828) 
35.	Glagolitic Mass - Leos Janacek (1926) 
36.	Messiah - Georg Handel (1741)
37.	St. Matthew Passion - Johann Sebastian Bach (1727)
38.	Missa Solemnis - Ludwig van Beethoven (1823)
39.	Symphony No. 9 in E Minor "From the New World" - Antonin Dvorak (1893) 
40.	Desertshore - Nico (1970) 
41.	Irrlicht - Klaus Schulze (1972) 
42.	The Jazz Composer's Orchestra - Michael Mantler (1968) 
43.	Variations in Dream-time - Anthony Davis (1982) 
44.	Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1822) 
45.	Symphonie Fantastique - Hector Berlioz (1830) 
46.	Symphony No. 41 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1788) 
47.	Piano Concerto No. 21 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1785) 
48.	Violin Concerto in D Major - Johannes Brahms (1878) 
49.	Ein Deutsches Requiem - Johannes Brahms (1868) 
50.	Symphony No. 5 - Gustav Mahler (1902)

NOTE: I limited my selections to Classical, Rock, Jazz, Film and Paintings because I have not extensively assimilated great literature/poetry or other forms enough to make confident selections. For instance, it is probable various works by Shakespeare, Dante, T.S. Eliot, Kafka, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, etc, deserve strong consideration, but perhaps another time, another list, another poll.


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## musicrom

If I made a list, I could probably only include classical music, art, and literature.

Having said that, I still don't feel comfortable ranking anything other than classical music. With literature, I don't feel I have read enough of the canon to rank it, as I would certainly be leaving great works out just because I haven't had the time. With art, well, I don't really feel like I understand what makes good art, besides "it looks good".

Anyways, I suppose I could still try, but I'm sure an older me would laugh at the list I'd make. If I do attempt a list, could mathematical proofs be considered art? I'm a little more familiar with them, and there are some really elegant ones. :lol:


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## hpowders

Define "greatest".

Also "of all time", we may have a long way to go on planet earth. Is this fair to those geniuses just starting to compose and the great composing unborn?


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## AfterHours

musicrom said:


> If I made a list, I could probably only include classical music, art, and literature.
> 
> Having said that, I still don't feel comfortable ranking anything other than classical music. With literature, I don't feel I have read enough of the canon to rank them, as I would certainly be leaving great works out just because I haven't had the time. With art, well, I'm not exactly a connoisseur.
> 
> Anyways, I suppose I could still try, but I'm sure an older me would laugh at the list I'd make. If I do attempt a list, could mathematical proofs be considered art? I'm a little more familiar with them, and there are some really elegant ones. :lol:


Understood, I doubt you're alone in your considerations. Feel totally free to post a Classical-only list.

Looks like you were joking, but just in case, I don't think we should go as far as including things like mathematical proofs, even though I don't doubt for a second that they could be considered artistic by those most knowledgeable of such things 

I think it's best to stick with known, defined art forms, even if many things in the world (Everything? Life itself? The Universe?) could probably be considered, fundamentally speaking, works of art if a more general perspective is assumed. But for the purposes of a poll, it could just get too out of hand. Could get to a point where each of us might as well just choose "Solar System" :lol:


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## topo morto

hpowders said:


> Define "greatest".


I think that's what we're being asked to do, and then to express that definition through our choices.



hpowders said:


> Also "of all time", we may have a long way to go on planet earth. Is this fair to those geniuses just starting to compose and the great composing unborn?


Pretty sure nuclear Armageddon is coming soon. They'd best get a move on.


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## hpowders

topo morto said:


> I think that's what we're being asked to do, and then to express that definition through our choices.
> 
> Pretty sure nuclear Armageddon is coming soon. They'd best get a move on.


I'm more optimistic. We need to wait for the great composing unborn to start composing. I feel another great piano quintet coming within 20-25 years. The poll may need to be revised.


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## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> Define "greatest".
> 
> Also "of all time", we may have a long way to go on planet earth. Is this fair to those geniuses just starting to compose and the great composing unborn?


Like I said in the OP, feel free to choose your own criteria. Whatever "greatest" or "best" or "favorite", or all of the above, means to you.

Yes, I am blatantly discriminating against and prejudiced towards those who haven't created their works of art yet. Woe is me :tiphat:


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## Bettina

My list is probably based more on personal preference than on objective greatness (and I'm not always sure if I can tell the difference.) Deviating slightly from the original guidelines, I've chosen to include some philosophical works which, in my opinion, have literary and artistic merit - I hope it's OK for me to extend the definition of "art" in this way.

1. Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)
2. Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749)
3. Divine Comedy - Dante Alighieri (1320)
4. Hamlet - William Shakespeare (ca. 1600)
5. Beautiful Starry Night - Vincent van Gogh (1889)
6. String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826)
7. Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859)
8. Phenomenology of Spirit - Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1807)
9. Parsifal - Richard Wagner (1882)
10. Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major "Eroica" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1804)
11. Thus Spake Zarathustra - Friedrich Nietzsche (1885)
12. Don Quixote - Miguel de Cervantes (1605)
13. Remembrance of Things Past - Marcel Proust (1922)
14. La Mer - Claude Debussy (1905)
15. Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)
16. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1787)
17. Doctor Faustus - Thomas Mann (1947)
18. Goldberg Variations - Johann Sebastian Bach (1741)
19. Ulysses - James Joyce (1922)
20. Macbeth - William Shakespeare (1606)
21. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1822) 
22. Symphony No. 41 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1788)
23. Critique of Judgment - Immanuel Kant (1790)
24. Der Ring des Nibelungen – Richard Wagner (1876)
25. Missa Solemnis – Ludwig van Beethoven (1823)
26. Las Meninas - Diego Velazquez (1656)
27. Sonnets to Orpheus - Rainer Maria Rilke (1922)
28. The Garden of Forking Paths - Jorge Luis Borges (1941)
29. Sonata in B Minor - Franz Liszt (1853)
30. St. Matthew Passion – Johann Sebastian Bach (1727)
31. String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1825) 
32. Medea - Euripides (431 BC)
33. One Hundred Years of Solitude - Gabriel Garcia Marquez (1967)
34. Madame Bovary - Gustave Flaubert (1857)
35. Winterreise - Franz Schubert (1827)
36. Symphony No. 4 in E Minor - Johannes Brahms (1885)
37. Faust - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1808, revised edition in 1828-9)
38. Steppenwolf - Hermann Hesse (1927)
39. The Trial - Franz Kafka (1915)
40. The Thinker - Auguste Rodin (1904)
41. The Persistence of Memory - Salvador Dali (1931)
42. The Scream - Edvard Munch (1893)
43. The Creation - Franz Joseph Haydn (1798)
44. Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience - William Blake (1794)
45. Anna Karenina - Leo Tolstoy (1877)
46. Flowers of Evil - Charles Baudelaire (1857)
47. Crime and Punishment - Fyodor Dostoyevsky (1866)
48. Daphnis et Chloe - Maurice Ravel (1912)
49. Rite of Spring - Igor Stravinsky (1913)
50. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi (1607)


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## Phil loves classical

Feels weird to compare a painting or movie to music. But I'll give a top 20:

1. Shane (1953)
2. Du Fu's Nocturnal Reflections while Travelling (circa 770) http://www.chinese-poems.com/d01.html
3. Plato's the Republic (circa 380 BC)
4. Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (1830)
5. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
6. Bartok's Music for Celesta Percussion and Strings (1937)
7. Van Gogh's the Red Vineyard (1888)
8. Monteverdi's Vespers of 1610 
9. Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 5 (1943)
10. Beethoven's Piano Sonata No. 32 (1822)
11. The Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour (1967) (UK version)
12. Meng Hao Ran's Spring Dawn (circa 689-740)
13. Love's Forever Changes (1967)
14. Varese's Hyperprism (1925)
15. Mingus's Black Saint and Sinner Lady (1963)
16. John Keats' Ode to A Grecian Urn (1819)
17. Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 27 (1791)
18. Fellini's La Strada (1954)
19. Lutoslawski's Symphony No. 4 (1992)
20. Rembrandt's Return of the Prodigal Son (1669)


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## hpowders

AfterHours said:


> Like I said in the OP, feel free to choose your own criteria. Whatever "greatest" or "best" or "favorite", or whatever, means to you.
> 
> Yes, I am blatantly discriminating against and prejudiced towards those who haven't created their works of art yet. Woe is me :tiphat:


Don't lose any sleep over it!! Future TC generations will revise your poll, I'm sure.


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## topo morto

My first 10 submissions:

Kenneth Wolstenholme's "They think it's all over" commentary
Pyramids of Giza
The Bible
Maradona's handball goal in the World Cup
The Qu'ran
SS Uniforms
The Chinese alphabet
The Korean (hangul) alphabet
The Arabic number system
Flowered up - "Weekender"


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## Chronochromie

Ranked as well? :lol:


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## DeepR

1. The Pillars of Creation
Naturally occuring art with the help of some man made coloring. Several light years across great. Beat that!


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## AfterHours

Chronochromie said:


> Ranked as well? :lol:


It was quite challenging. Good luck to you


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## AfterHours

Bettina said:


> My list is probably based more on personal preference than on objective greatness (and I'm not always sure if I can tell the difference.) Deviating slightly from the original guidelines, I've chosen to include some philosophical works which, in my opinion, have literary and artistic merit - I hope it's OK for me to extend the definition of "art" in this way.
> 
> 1. Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)
> 2. Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749)
> 3. Divine Comedy - Dante Alighieri (1320)
> 4. Hamlet - William Shakespeare (ca. 1600)
> 5. Beautiful Starry Night - Vincent van Gogh (1889)
> 6. String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826)
> 7. Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859)
> 8. Phenomenology of Spirit - Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1807)
> 9. Parsifal - Richard Wagner (1882)
> 10. Symphony No. 3 in E-flat Major "Eroica" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1804)
> 11. Thus Spake Zarathustra - Friedrich Nietzsche (1885)
> 12. Don Quixote - Miguel de Cervantes (1605)
> 13. Remembrance of Things Past - Marcel Proust (1922)
> 14. La Mer - Claude Debussy (1905)
> 15. Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)
> 16. Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1787)
> 17. Doctor Faustus - Thomas Mann (1947)
> 18. Goldberg Variations - Johann Sebastian Bach (1741)
> 19. Ulysses - James Joyce (1922)
> 20. Macbeth - William Shakespeare (1606)
> 21. Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1822)
> 22. Symphony No. 41 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1788)
> 23. Critique of Judgment - Immanuel Kant (1790)
> 24. Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner (1876)
> 25. Missa Solemnis - Ludwig van Beethoven (1823)
> 26. Las Meninas - Diego Velazquez (1656)
> 27. Sonnets to Orpheus - Rainer Maria Rilke (1922)
> 28. The Garden of Forking Paths - Jorge Luis Borges (1941)
> 29. Sonata in B Minor - Franz Liszt (1853)
> 30. St. Matthew Passion - Johann Sebastian Bach (1727)
> 31. String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1825)
> 32. Medea - Euripides (431 BC)
> 33. One Hundred Years of Solitude - Gabriel Garcia Marquez (1967)
> 34. Madame Bovary - Gustave Flaubert (1857)
> 35. Winterreise - Franz Schubert (1827)
> 36. Symphony No. 4 in E Minor - Johannes Brahms (1885)
> 37. Faust - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1808, revised edition in 1828-9)
> 38. Steppenwolf - Hermann Hesse (1927)
> 39. The Trial - Franz Kafka (1915)
> 40. The Thinker - Auguste Rodin (1904)
> 41. The Persistence of Memory - Salvador Dali (1931)
> 42. The Scream - Edvard Munch (1893)
> 43. The Creation - Franz Joseph Haydn (1798)
> 44. Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience - William Blake (1794)
> 45. Anna Karenina - Leo Tolstoy (1877)
> 46. Flowers of Evil - Charles Baudelaire (1857)
> 47. Crime and Punishment - Fyodor Dostoyevsky (1866)
> 48. Daphnis et Chloe - Maurice Ravel (1912)
> 49. Rite of Spring - Igor Stravinsky (1913)
> 50. Orfeo - Claudio Monteverdi (1607)


Thank you Bettina. Spectacular list


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Feels weird to compare a painting or movie to music. But I'll give a top 15:
> 
> 1. Shane (1953)
> 2. Du Fu's Nocturnal Reflections while Travelling (circa 770) http://www.chinese-poems.com/d01.html
> 3. Plato's the Republic (circa 380 BC)
> 4. Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (1830)
> 5. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968)
> 6. Bartok's Music for Celesta Percussion and Strings (1937)
> 7. Van Gogh's the Red Vineyard (1888)
> 8. Monteverdi's Vespers of 1610
> 9. Vaughan Williams' Symphony No. 5 (1943)
> 10. Mozart's Fantasia K. 475 (1785)
> 11. The Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour (1967) (UK version)
> 12. Meng Hai Ran's Spring Dawn (circa 689-740)
> 13. Love's Forever Changes (1967)
> 14. Varese's Hyperprism (1925)
> 15. Mingus's Black Saint and Sinner Lady (1963)


Thank you, quite a combination of interesting selections. Not surprised to see Shane based on that Avatar. Then again, I suppose that would mean that my list should've included at least 1 Andrei Tarkovsky film. Nostalghia came very close to making the cut, but 50 means many masterpieces couldn't be included.


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## AfterHours

Bettina said:


> Deviating slightly from the original guidelines, I've chosen to include some philosophical works which, in my opinion, have literary and artistic merit - I hope it's OK for me to extend the definition of "art" in this way.


Yes, absolutely fine to include those :tiphat:


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## Chronochromie

AfterHours said:


> It was quite challenging. Good luck to you


No thanks. Funniest thread here in a while though.


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## senza sordino

This reminds me of something akin to a vault, what artifacts should we store in case of war, Armageddon, catastrophic climate change etc.

There's the memory of mankind project. https://www.memory-of-mankind.com. And the seed bank in the arctic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault. Or what the French and other Allies had done during WWII.

I'm not worried about how to define greatest, it's different for me than you. Greatest could mean my favourite or what I think is the most important to our collective world history.

To make up fifty, I'd probably choose 10 paintings, 10 pieces of music, 10 buildings, 10 works of literature and 10 miscellaneous to make up 50, just to be fair.

I'll give it a go and get back to you.


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## Phil loves classical

I was thinking of including Stonehenge, Grand Canyon, but we'll leave Nature or Alien Art out of this.


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## AfterHours

Chronochromie said:


> No thanks. Funniest thread here in a while though.


Thank you, thought it could be adventurous :lol:

Are enough users going to take the dive and put a list of 10 or more entries together? Who knows, but the potential to amass an amazing list of recommendations from various art forms across the centuries (regardless if the majority end up being Classical music) would prove interesting, given the high level of knowledge and artistic ideals I've seen from this community.


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## AfterHours

senza sordino said:


> This reminds me of something akin to a vault, what artifacts should we store in case of war, Armageddon, catastrophic climate change etc.
> 
> There's the memory of mankind project. https://www.memory-of-mankind.com. And the seed bank in the arctic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault. Or what the French and other Allies had done during WWII.
> 
> I'm not worried about how to define greatest, it's different for me than you. Greatest could mean my favourite or what I think is the most important to our collective world history.
> 
> To make up fifty, I'd probably choose 10 paintings, 10 pieces of music, 10 buildings, 10 works of literature and 10 miscellaneous to make up 50, just to be fair.
> 
> I'll give it a go and get back to you.


Sounds good, I'm looking forward to what you come up with!


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> I was thinking of including Stonehenge, Grand Canyon, but we'll leave Nature or Alien Art out of this.


Good call, good call


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## Bettina

I just realized that my list is completely male-dominated - it does not contain a single work created by a woman. I honestly cannot think of any work by a woman which (in my humble opinion) belongs in the top 50 masterpieces. Perhaps this means that I've been brainwashed by the patriarchy...in any case, I'm proud of my list and I stand by it, even if it is not politically correct!


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## jegreenwood

Bettina said:


> I just realized that my list is completely male-dominated - it does not contain a single work created by a woman. I honestly cannot think of any work by a woman which (in my humble opinion) belongs in the top 50 masterpieces. Perhaps this means that I've been brainwashed by the patriarchy...in any case, I'm proud of my list and I stand by it, even if it is not politically correct!


"To the Lighthouse" maybe?

Great list


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## Pugg

I do not even want to think about listing 50 would change every day.


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## mathisdermaler

AfterHours said:


> My submission:
> 
> 1.	Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgement) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541)
> 2.	Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)
> 3.	Symphony No. 9 in D Major - Gustav Mahler (1910)
> 4.	Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749)
> 5.	Peasants' War Panorama - Werner Tubke (1987) [aka, "Early Bourgeois Revolution in Germany"]
> 6.	Requiem - Guisseppe Verdi (1874)
> 7.	Symphony No. 9 in C Major "The Great" - Franz Schubert (1826)
> 8.	Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859)
> 9.	Symphony No. 15 in A Major - Dmitri Shostakovich (1971)
> 10.	The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963)
> 11.	Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band (1969)
> 12.	Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt (1974)
> 13.	String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1825)
> 14.	Citizen Kane - Orson Welles (1941)
> 15.	A Love Supreme - John Coltrane (1964)
> 16.	Faust - Faust (1971)
> 17.	The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground (1967)
> 18.	String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826)
> 19.	Astral Weeks - Van Morrison (1968)
> 20.	Parable of Arable Land - Red Crayola (1967)
> 21.	Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)
> 22.	Symphony No. 4 in E Minor - Johannes Brahms (1884)
> 23.	The Doors - The Doors (1967)
> 24.	Unit Structures - Cecil Taylor (1966)
> 25.	Fidelio - Ludwig van Beethoven (1805-1814)
> 26.	Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1787)
> 27.	Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner (1876)
> 28.	Metropolis - Fritz Lang (1927) ["The Complete Metropolis", 147 minutes]
> 29.	Lorca - Tim Buckley (1970)
> 30.	Ascension - John Coltrane (1965)
> 31.	The Garden of Earthly Delights - Hieronymus Bosch (circa 1500)
> 32.	Escalator Over The Hill - Carla Bley (1971)
> 33.	Twin Infinitives - Royal Trux (1990)
> 34.	String Quintet in C Major - Franz Schubert (1828)
> 35.	Glagolitic Mass - Leos Janacek (1926)
> 36.	Messiah - Georg Handel (1741)
> 37.	St. Matthew Passion - Johann Sebastian Bach (1727)
> 38.	Missa Solemnis - Ludwig van Beethoven (1823)
> 39.	Symphony No. 9 in E Minor "From the New World" - Antonin Dvorak (1893)
> 40.	Desertshore - Nico (1970)
> 41.	Irrlicht - Klaus Schulze (1972)
> 42.	The Jazz Composer's Orchestra - Michael Mantler (1968)
> 43.	Variations in Dream-time - Anthony Davis (1982)
> 44.	Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1822)
> 45.	Symphonie Fantastique - Hector Berlioz (1830)
> 46.	Symphony No. 41 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1788)
> 47.	Piano Concerto No. 21 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1785)
> 48.	Violin Concerto in D Major - Johannes Brahms (1878)
> 49.	Ein Deutsches Requiem - Johannes Brahms (1868)
> 50.	Symphony No. 5 - Gustav Mahler (1902)
> 
> NOTE: I limited my selections to Classical, Rock, Jazz, Film and Paintings because I have not extensively assimilated great literature/poetry or other forms enough to make confident selections. For instance, it is probable various works by Shakespeare, Dante, T.S. Eliot, Kafka, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, etc, deserve strong consideration, but perhaps another time, another list, another poll.


 Thanks, Scaruffi.

EDIT: Twin Infinitives by Royal Trux is one of the 50 greatest pieces of art of all time?


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## mathisdermaler

1. J.S. Bach - Mass in B minor (1749)
2. Anton Bruckner - Symphony 9 (1896)
3. William Faulkner - Light in August (1932)
4. Max Ernst - Europe After Rain II (1942)
5. Richard Wagner - Tristan und Isolde (1865)

I can only do five. This is heady stuff.


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## Phil loves classical

mathisdermaler said:


> Thanks, Scaruffi.
> 
> EDIT: Twin Infinitives by Royal Trux is one of the 50 greatest pieces of art of all time?


It is in Scaruffi's list, also Joanna Newsom ut: Yuck!


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## AfterHours

mathisdermaler said:


> EDIT: Twin Infinitives by Royal Trux is one of the 50 greatest pieces of art of all time?


Well, yes, I wouldn't have included it if it weren't?  What makes, say, Ernst's Europe After the Rain II worthy but not Twin Infinitives? I don't disagree that Ernst's masterpiece deserves mention among paintings, but they're each doing relatively similar things with their respective forms from an emotional/conceptual standpoint, only Twin Infinitives to quite a bit more overwhelming extent.


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> It is in Scaruffi's list, also Joanna Newsom ut: Yuck!


Disgusting! Cooties! :lol:


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## AfterHours

mathisdermaler said:


> 1. J.S. Bach - Mass in B minor (1749)
> 2. Anton Bruckner - Symphony 9 (1896)
> 3. William Faulkner - Light in August (1932)
> 4. Max Ernst - Europe After Rain II (1942)
> 5. Richard Wagner - Tristan und Isolde (1865)
> 
> I can only do five. This is heady stuff.


Dig your list. If you end up coming up with 10+, let me know (10 is the minimum to be included in the final tally)


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## AfterHours

Pugg said:


> I do not even want to think about listing 50 would change every day.


I can understand that. As few as 10 is allowed also, if that's easier?


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## SONNET CLV

I'm not going to list 50 great works of art. What are "the greatest" can only be a matter of opinion, and few of us are informed enough to have evaluated every piece of art to speak of it in a critical way. I admire much of Greek literature, and Dante and Shakespeare, Dickens and Walt Whitman and Samuel Becket; and in music Bach, Mozart, Beethoven ... you all know the names; and in graphic art Michelangelo, DaVinci, Raphael, El Greco, Cezanne .... Again, it seems almost absurd to even think of narrowing to 50 greatest art works. One must consider architecture, in which I am not well versed, and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?); and philosophical constructs render as art in my opinion (What else can we call the concepts of Plato and Aristotle, Nietzsche and Heidegger....?).

But I have long held that the greatest art work (and I mean this only in a broad symbolic way) is represented by the cave paintings of Lascaux, France.





















These images, dating back some 25-30,000 years, mark the dawn of human consciousness itself -- that wholly human quality that separates our species from other life forms on Earth, and the quality that allows for the creation of art, something other animals or plants can not accomplish.

The bison and other beasts of the cave paintings are artistic images. They do not provide any real sustenance -- they cannot be consumed for food, provide hides for clothing or shelter, or bones for the fashioning of tools. They exist only to admire by that inner sense of ours sometimes called the human spirit. Perhaps they provide a symbolic awareness of what some might call religion or others philosophy. But like all art, they are functionally useless, but _not_ valueless. Rather, their value is great -- they mark us as human, no small thing indeed.

The painters of these cave art images are the predecessors of Homer, DaVinci, Shakespeare, Mozart, Frank Lloyd Wright and Einstein. They stand at the very brink of humanness. Before them there is no art, there is no humanity. I'm always amazed to consider that the human species existed for some million years in a very narrow range as hunter/gatherers on the plains of eastern Africa until they slowly began to move outward and establish colonies in other parts of the globe. Yet, at the marking point of the cave paintings one begins to see a rapid development, within several thousand years, that led to agriculture, sophisticated tool manufacturing, cities, industry, and the wheel. Human culture is born.

We all owe those early cave painters a great debt of gratitude, for without their awareness we might have gone for another million years as a human species without art, hunting and gathering on the plains of eastern Africa.

So, that's my vote for now.


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## Art Rock

As much as I like making lists, this one is completely impossible for me. I could make (and have made) lists of my favourite composers, classical music compositions, pop/rock songs, pop/rock albums, painters, movies, books, architecture, but I would have no clue how to merge these into one list.


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## DeepR

DeepR said:


> 1. The Pillars of Creation
> Naturally occuring art with the help of some man made coloring. Several light years across great. Beat that!


Off topic, but after I posted this I started wondering how such a picture is made in the first place. These pages explain that pretty well to a layman like me: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/hubb-01.html


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## mathisdermaler

Phil loves classical said:


> It is in Scaruffi's list, also Joanna Newsom ut: Yuck!


His rock albums list, yes. I don't think it deserves a place there either, but that's more arguable. I actually love Joanna Newsom, lol. Own 2 copies of Have One on Me.


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## mathisdermaler

1. J.S. Bach - Mass in B minor (1749)
2. Anton Bruckner - Symphony 9 (1896)
3. William Faulkner - Light in August (1932)
4. Max Ernst - Europe After Rain II (1942)
5. Richard Wagner - Tristan und Isolde (1865)
6. Giovanni Palestrina - Missa Papae Marcelli (1562)
7. Pablo Picasso - Guernica (1937)
8. Johannes Brahms - Ein Deutsches Requiem (1868)
9. Barnett Newman - Vir Heroicus Sublimis (1951)
10. Philip Glass - Einstein on the Beach (1976)

That's 10. Obviously this is very much my opinion, lol.


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## Pat Fairlea

Sonnet CLV narrowly beat me to it by nominating the Lascaux cave art. My nominee is the drawings at Grotte de Rouffignac, perfect charcoal line drawings that pre-empt Picasso by some 18k years.

I'll have to think about the rest. Give me a couple of weeks.


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## Pugg

AfterHours said:


> I can understand that. As few as 10 is allowed also, if that's easier?


Even those changes by the week.
Always new names coming up on this site.


----------



## Phil loves classical

SONNET CLV said:


> I'm not going to list 50 great works of art. What are "the greatest" can only be a matter of opinion, and few of us are informed enough to have evaluated every piece of art to speak of it in a critical way. I admire much of Greek literature, and Dante and Shakespeare, Dickens and Walt Whitman and Samuel Becket; and in music Bach, Mozart, Beethoven ... you all know the names; and in graphic art Michelangelo, DaVinci, Raphael, El Greco, Cezanne .... Again, it seems almost absurd to even think of narrowing to 50 greatest art works. One must consider architecture, in which I am not well versed, and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?); and philosophical constructs render as art in my opinion (What else can we call the concepts of Plato and Aristotle, Nietzsche and Heidegger....?).
> 
> But I have long held that the greatest art work (and I mean this only in a broad symbolic way) is represented by the cave paintings of Lascaux, France.
> 
> View attachment 93793
> View attachment 93794
> View attachment 93795
> 
> 
> These images, dating back some 25-30,000 years, mark the dawn of human consciousness itself -- that wholly human quality that separates our species from other life forms on Earth, and the quality that allows for the creation of art, something other animals or plants can not accomplish.
> 
> The bison and other beasts of the cave paintings are artistic images. They do not provide any real sustenance -- they cannot be consumed for food, provide hides for clothing or shelter, or bones for the fashioning of tools. They exist only to admire by that inner sense of ours sometimes called the human spirit. Perhaps they provide a symbolic awareness of what some might call religion or others philosophy. But like all art, they are functionally useless, but _not_ valueless. Rather, their value is great -- they mark us as human, no small thing indeed.
> 
> The painters of these cave art images are the predecessors of Homer, DaVinci, Shakespeare, Mozart, Frank Lloyd Wright and Einstein. They stand at the very brink of humanness. Before them there is no art, there is no humanity. I'm always amazed to consider that the human species existed for some million years in a very narrow range as hunter/gatherers on the plains of eastern Africa until they slowly began to move outward and establish colonies in other parts of the globe. Yet, at the marking point of the cave paintings one begins to see a rapid development, within several thousand years, that led to agriculture, sophisticated tool manufacturing, cities, industry, and the wheel. Human culture is born.
> 
> We all owe those early cave painters a great debt of gratitude, for without their awareness we might have gone for another million years as a human species without art, hunting and gathering on the plains of eastern Africa.
> 
> So, that's my vote for now.


This is an interesting post for discussion. How can mathematical equations themselves be considered works of art? Math is present in art. Based on my observations, it seems to me that present in art is an open ended equation or question, which leads to variety of possible answers leading to interpretaion, or no answer in some cases, or a mathematical implication in others ie. if a is true then b.


----------



## Becca

SONNET CLV said:


> and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?); and philosophical constructs render as art in my opinion (What else can we call the concepts of Plato and Aristotle, Nietzsche and Heidegger....?).


A mathematical equation or proof may be elegant but it is not a work of art. Art is a creative process which need not have a basis in reality whereas mathematical or scientific items are necessarily descriptions of (for want of a a better world) physical realities.


----------



## AfterHours

Pugg said:


> Even those changes by the week.
> Always new names coming up on this site.


Can't say I blame you  As soon as I posted mine I had at least 75 others in mind that seemed just as worthy as anything from, say #25-50


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## AfterHours

Pat Fairlea said:


> Sonnet CLV narrowly beat me to it by nominating the Lascaux cave art. My nominee is the drawings at Grotte de Rouffignac, perfect charcoal line drawings that pre-empt Picasso by some 18k years.
> 
> I'll have to think about the rest. Give me a couple of weeks.


Go for it, looking forward to your choices.


----------



## AfterHours

Art Rock said:


> As much as I like making lists, this one is completely impossible for me. I could make (and have made) lists of my favourite composers, classical music compositions, pop/rock songs, pop/rock albums, painters, movies, books, architecture, but I would have no clue how to merge these into one list.


Hmmmm, yes it's tough, no doubt about it ... Maybe listing them by sets or something like that would be easier ... As long as you don't mind them being weighted per the order you post them in?


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## AfterHours

mathisdermaler said:


> 1. J.S. Bach - Mass in B minor (1749)
> 2. Anton Bruckner - Symphony 9 (1896)
> 3. William Faulkner - Light in August (1932)
> 4. Max Ernst - Europe After Rain II (1942)
> 5. Richard Wagner - Tristan und Isolde (1865)
> 6. Giovanni Palestrina - Missa Papae Marcelli (1562)
> 7. Pablo Picasso - Guernica (1937)
> 8. Johannes Brahms - Ein Deutsches Requiem (1868)
> 9. Barnett Newman - Vir Heroicus Sublimis (1951)
> 10. Philip Glass - Einstein on the Beach (1976)
> 
> That's 10. Obviously this is very much my opinion, lol.


Fantastic, thank you.


----------



## Guest

I'm simply not arrogant enough to try this.


----------



## SONNET CLV

Phil loves classical said:


> This is an interesting post for discussion. How can mathematical equations themselves be considered works of art? Math is present in art. Based on my observations, it seems to me that present in art is an open ended equation or question, which leads to variety of possible answers leading to interpretaion, or no answer in some cases, or a mathematical implication in others ie. if a is true then b.





Becca said:


> A mathematical equation or proof may be elegant but it is not a work of art. Art is a creative process which need not have a basis in reality whereas mathematical or scientific items are necessarily descriptions of (for want of a a better world) physical realities.


I understand both of your concerns/arguments here. You are correct.
But what I said is: "...and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?)."

One may argue that the equations of math have always been there. Of course, they haven't been except to have been "discovered" and objectified to a form comprehensible to our human minds. To do so demanded an imaginative, creative, seeking mind -- an artistic mind. And the "artistic beauty" of a math theorem is similar to that of a Beethoven Symphony which, in some sense, seems to have always been here, but it took a Beethoven's mind to codify the essence into an objective reality we can experience.

Michelangelo famously noted that the image was always within the stone, and that all he did was take off the excess rock to reveal what was already there. The symphony was always in the air, but the composer puts it into a solid form. The equation, in a similar sense, was always there, but could be known only when objectified.

But I do see your points. But I'm arguing here for imagination that creates beauty out of composite existing materials. Perhaps a math genius is more a discoverer of something. But so is a philosopher. And ... Beethoven didn't create the notes G and E-flat, but he "discovered" the power and beauty of three Gs and and E-flat at the opening of his Fifth Symphony. Certainly we celebrate the human imagination in all of these actions of discovery/creation. And the "artistic beauty" is a result.


----------



## AfterHours

mathisdermaler said:


> His rock albums list, yes. I don't think it deserves a place there either, but that's more arguable. I actually love Joanna Newsom, lol. Own 2 copies of Have One on Me.


People are free to like what they like of course, but I would think Newsom would be one of the more popular "Rock" artists, if any, among hardcore Classical music fans. Her compositional skills and intellectual/emotional depth are far closer to that of the great Classical artists' Solo works/Trios/Quartets (and the like) than, say, much more popular Pop/Rock choices like Radiohead or The Beatles.


----------



## AfterHours

nathanb said:


> I'm simply not arrogant enough to try this.


Ironic of you to post such a thing


----------



## AfterHours

SONNET CLV said:


> I'm not going to list 50 great works of art. What are "the greatest" can only be a matter of opinion, and few of us are informed enough to have evaluated every piece of art to speak of it in a critical way. I admire much of Greek literature, and Dante and Shakespeare, Dickens and Walt Whitman and Samuel Becket; and in music Bach, Mozart, Beethoven ... you all know the names; and in graphic art Michelangelo, DaVinci, Raphael, El Greco, Cezanne .... Again, it seems almost absurd to even think of narrowing to 50 greatest art works. One must consider architecture, in which I am not well versed, and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?); and philosophical constructs render as art in my opinion (What else can we call the concepts of Plato and Aristotle, Nietzsche and Heidegger....?).
> 
> But I have long held that the greatest art work (and I mean this only in a broad symbolic way) is represented by the cave paintings of Lascaux, France.
> 
> View attachment 93793
> View attachment 93794
> View attachment 93795
> 
> 
> These images, dating back some 25-30,000 years, mark the dawn of human consciousness itself -- that wholly human quality that separates our species from other life forms on Earth, and the quality that allows for the creation of art, something other animals or plants can not accomplish.
> 
> The bison and other beasts of the cave paintings are artistic images. They do not provide any real sustenance -- they cannot be consumed for food, provide hides for clothing or shelter, or bones for the fashioning of tools. They exist only to admire by that inner sense of ours sometimes called the human spirit. Perhaps they provide a symbolic awareness of what some might call religion or others philosophy. But like all art, they are functionally useless, but _not_ valueless. Rather, their value is great -- they mark us as human, no small thing indeed.
> 
> The painters of these cave art images are the predecessors of Homer, DaVinci, Shakespeare, Mozart, Frank Lloyd Wright and Einstein. They stand at the very brink of humanness. Before them there is no art, there is no humanity. I'm always amazed to consider that the human species existed for some million years in a very narrow range as hunter/gatherers on the plains of eastern Africa until they slowly began to move outward and establish colonies in other parts of the globe. Yet, at the marking point of the cave paintings one begins to see a rapid development, within several thousand years, that led to agriculture, sophisticated tool manufacturing, cities, industry, and the wheel. Human culture is born.
> 
> We all owe those early cave painters a great debt of gratitude, for without their awareness we might have gone for another million years as a human species without art, hunting and gathering on the plains of eastern Africa.
> 
> So, that's my vote for now.


Thanks for the insight about such early, influential drawings. Looks like you had quite a few excellent selections in mind ... should you decide to submit a full list at some point (can be as few as 10 entries)


----------



## AfterHours

SONNET CLV said:


> I understand both of your concerns/arguments here. You are correct.
> But what I said is: "...and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?)."
> 
> One may argue that the equations of math have always been there. Of course, they haven't been except to have been "discovered" and objectified to a form comprehensible to our human minds. To do so demanded an imaginative, creative, seeking mind -- an artistic mind. And the "artistic beauty" of a math theorem is similar to that of a Beethoven Symphony which, in some sense, seems to have always been here, but it took a Beethoven's mind to codify the essence into an objective reality we can experience.
> 
> Michelangelo famously noted that the image was always within the stone, and that all he did was take off the excess rock to reveal what was already there. The symphony was always in the air, but the composer puts it into a solid form. The equation, in a similar sense, was always there, but could be known only when objectified.
> 
> But I do see your points. But I'm arguing here for imagination that creates beauty out of composite existing materials. Perhaps a math genius is more a discoverer of something. But so is a philosopher. And ... Beethoven didn't create the notes G and E-flat, but he "discovered" the power and beauty of three Gs and and E-flat at the opening of his Fifth Symphony. Certainly we celebrate the human imagination in all of these actions of discovery/creation. And the "artistic beauty" is a result.


It's not so much that I would disagree with you on a very fundamental level. It's just that there have to be some distinct parameters of inclusion for the purposes of a poll, that's all. So just the main, defined art forms such as those listed in the OP. Surely, others such as theater, could be included. Books on philosophy, mathematics and the like are fine if that's what one chooses.


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## Myriadi

This must be one of the most bizzare polls I've come across. Not only paintings, poetry, architecture, and music are all mixed into one, but the 6000 years of recorded history have to be understood as yielding only 50 truly great works. 

What I mean is, here's a quick list of 10 incredible works of art I just thought of, all of which date from several thousand years ago:

1. The Löwenmensch figurine - unknown, modern-day Germany (c.35000-40000 BP)
2. The Swimming Reindeer - unknown, modern-day France (c. 13000 BP)
3. Okunev culture ritual steles - unknown, Okunev culture, modern-day Khakassia, Russia (c. 3000-4000 BP)
4. Nazca Lines - unknown, Nazca culture, modern-day Peru (c. 2000-2500 BP)
5. The Epic of Gilgamesh - unknown, modern-day Iraq (c.2100-1800 BCE)
6. Deir el-Bahari, mortuary temple complex - various architects, modern-day Egypt (c. 2050-1500s BCE)
7. The Ambum Stone - unknown, modern-day Papua New Guinea (c.1500 BCE)
8. The Tale of the Doomed Prince - unknown, modern-day Egypt (c. 1550–1298 BCE)
9. The Mahābhārata - unknown, modern-day India (c. 4th century BCE)
10. Nazca Mantle (Brooklyn Museum) and Paracas textiles in general - unknown, modern-day Peru (c.300-200 BCE)

All of these are universally accepted as having vast historical significance, and I'm selecting these particular ones because they had a profound emotional/aesthetic effect on me personally. Which is why the Vedas aren't here, or the Egyptian Book of the Dead, or any Minoan art. And if I had to list all of the stuff that's normally - and justly - included in prehistoric and/or ancient art primers, it'd be easy to come up with at least 200 "greatest" works of art of immense importance and timeless aesthetic value - all of them from before c. 500 BCE.

So I can't imagine how to start making the list the OP requests. But it'd be interesting to look at how other people tackle this.


----------



## Phil loves classical

SONNET CLV said:


> I understand both of your concerns/arguments here. You are correct.
> But what I said is: "...and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?)."
> 
> One may argue that the equations of math have always been there. Of course, they haven't been except to have been "discovered" and objectified to a form comprehensible to our human minds. To do so demanded an imaginative, creative, seeking mind -- an artistic mind. And the "artistic beauty" of a math theorem is similar to that of a Beethoven Symphony which, in some sense, seems to have always been here, but it took a Beethoven's mind to codify the essence into an objective reality we can experience.
> 
> Michelangelo famously noted that the image was always within the stone, and that all he did was take off the excess rock to reveal what was already there. The symphony was always in the air, but the composer puts it into a solid form. The equation, in a similar sense, was always there, but could be known only when objectified.
> 
> But I do see your points. But I'm arguing here for imagination that creates beauty out of composite existing materials. Perhaps a math genius is more a discoverer of something. But so is a philosopher. And ... Beethoven didn't create the notes G and E-flat, but he "discovered" the power and beauty of three Gs and and E-flat at the opening of his Fifth Symphony. Certainly we celebrate the human imagination in all of these actions of discovery/creation. And the "artistic beauty" is a result.


I would not say Beethoven didn't create something and only discovered the music, but that is debatable. I would also not equate an imaginative, creative, seeking mind with an artistic mind, even though the latter would likely possess the previous qualities. Art I believe has a lot to do with discovering new things through presentation and perspective. With a math equation there is only 1 presentation and perspective, so I would say it is low, if not lacking, in artistic qualtities.


----------



## senza sordino

1	Michaelangelo's David
2	Newton Principia 
3	Athens Parthenon 
4	Picasso Guernica 
5	Beethoven 9
6	Bach Dm Chaconne 
7	Darwin Origin of the Species
8	Lascaux Rock Art
9	Sistine Chapel
10	Monet Water lilies 

11	Da Vinci Mona Lisa
12	Shakespeare Hamlet
13	Taj Mahal 
14	Tutankhamen Burial Mask
15	American Constitution 
16	Stravinsky Rite of Spring 
17	Wright Brothers Flyer	
18	Westminster Abbey 
19	Seurat Afternoon on the grand Jatte
20	Orwell 1984

21	Vermeer The Girl with the Pearl Earing
22	Hagia Sofia
23	Venice
24	Stradivarius Violin
25	Verdi Aida
26	Beethoven SQ 14 in Am
27	Terracotta Army
28	Ankor Wat
29	Botticelli Birth of Venus
30	Van Gogh Starry Night

31	Dickens David Copperfield
32	Conrad Heart of Darkness 
33	Renoir Dance at the Moulin de la Galette
34	Sydney Opera House
35	Empire State Building 
36	Debussy Prelude to the afternoon of a faun
37	Beatles Sgt Pepper 
38	The Hermitage in St Petersburg 
39	Rembrandt The Night Watch
40	Chagall I and the Village

41	Fitzgerald The Great Gatsby
42	Hemingway The Sun Also Rises
43	Sagrada Familia
44	Steinbeck The Grapes of Wrath
45	Harper Lee To Kill a Mockingbird 
46	Miles Davis Kind of Blue
47	Tolstoy Anna Karenina 
48	Tolkien Lord of the Rings
49	Bernstein West Side Story
50	Brahms Violin Concerto

An impossible task. Some of this is my favourite art as opposed to important art, some is important but not my favourite. Some might not even be considered art by others. Greatest is impossible to define, even art is impossible to define.


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> People are free to like what they like of course, but I would think Newsom would be one of the more popular "Rock" artists, if any, among hardcore Classical music fans. Her compositional skills and intellectual/emotional depth are far closer to that of the great Classical artists' Solo works/Trios/Quartets (and the like) than, say, much more popular Pop/Rock choices like Radiohead or The Beatles.


Newsom over the Beatles? Sure if you are Scaruffi. :lol: i gave the Royal Trux a full listen rather than only sampling, and it is quite intriguing, and you can't take it at face value.


----------



## mathisdermaler

Phil loves classical said:


> Newsom over the Beatles? Sure if you are Scaruffi. :lol: i gave the Royal Trux a full listen rather than only sampling, and it is quite intriguing, and you can't take it at face value.


What have you heard of Newsom's music? Have you heard Have One on Me? That's her masterpiece.


----------



## Phil loves classical

mathisdermaler said:


> What have you heard of Newsom's music? Have you heard Have One on Me? That's her masterpiece.


Yes, Have one on me. 

P.s. Her singing has a bit of Billie Holliday. Her music is a mix of pseudo-Classical and Jazz. But way too theatrical for me. I feel there is very little emotional depth, and very pretentious. I don't even feel it is very original, just an eclectic mix of certain conventions. I don't just feel neutral about the music, but it rubs me the wrong way, and drives me nuts :scold:


----------



## SONNET CLV

Phil loves classical said:


> I would not say Beethoven didn't create something and only discovered the music, but that is debatable. I would also not equate an imaginative, creative, seeking mind with an artistic mind, even though the latter would likely possess the previous qualities. Art I believe has a lot to do with discovering new things through presentation and perspective. *With a math equation there is only 1 presentation and perspective*, so I would say it is low, if not lacking, in artistic qualtities.


Of course, I admire the Pythagorean Theorem precisely because of its singularity. When we think of that concept, whoever we are or wherever we are, we think of exactly the same thing. That is deeply profound. The same goes for the Einstein equation. And both of these equations, though representative of universal mathematical truths, required a creative human mind to put into a fashion we can mentally grasp. I argue that this creativity of thought is the same as that of artistic creativity of thought -- to imagine something of universal truth and bring it to an objective reality.

Such a mathematical truth differs from a symphony, is less interpretive, is less singular in meaning. But the imagination that allows it to be is one that matches that in the minds of those who created the _Divine Comedy_, the Sistine Chapel Ceiling art, the B Minor Mass, the Taj Mahal....

Why don't we yet have an equation for the grand unifying theory of everything? For the same reason we don't have a great epic poem we don't yet have, or a great graphic mural we don't yet have, or a great symphony we don't yet have. Because the mind to create it (find it, discover it, reveal it) has not yet arrived.

I maintain that someday we will have such an equation, the GUT equation, and it will be profoundly simple and eloquent. And we will all understand it (as we now understand a2+b2=c2 or E=mc2). Just as we will all "understand" (as in be able to hear/read/see and speculate upon) the great epic poem, graphic mural, and symphony yet to be.

I'm never surprised to learn that great artists are quite often competent mathematicians. Einstein played a mean fiddle. Mozart's sister is known to have written that had her brother not become a musician he would have likely been a mathematician. Xenakis, an architect, worked out music based upon equations. And I regularly listen to symphonies by astronomer Frederick William Herschel.

Douglas Hofstadter's book _Godel, Escher, Bach_ puts much of this in perspective.  But different forms of creative thinking have one thing in common: the creative thinker -- or one whom we might term "an artist".


----------



## Bettina

SONNET CLV said:


> .... Again, it seems almost absurd to even think of narrowing to 50 greatest art works. One must consider architecture, in which I am not well versed, and perhaps mathematical equations (Can anyone deny the artistic beauty of the Pythagorean Theorem or of Einstein's E=mc2?); and philosophical constructs render as art in my opinion (What else can we call the concepts of Plato and Aristotle, Nietzsche and Heidegger....?)


I agree with you about the artistic value of philosophical constructs. In fact, my list includes several philosophical texts which (in my highly subjective opinion) employ allegorical language in a literary manner. That was essentially my criterion for determining whether a philosophical text should be considered "art": I (arbitrarily!) decided that philosophical writings could count as art if they used a sufficiently figurative prose style.


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## Phil loves classical

Bettina said:


> I agree with you about the artistic value of philosophical constructs. In fact, my list includes several philosophical texts which (in my highly subjective opinion) employ allegorical language in a literary manner. That was essentially my criterion for determining whether a philosophical text should be considered "art": I (arbitrarily!) decided that philosophical writings could count as art if they used a sufficiently figurative prose style.


Same here, especially Plato with his dialogues.


----------



## Becca

Regarding elegant and artistic mathematical proofs...

View attachment 93805


----------



## senza sordino

Becca said:


> Regarding elegant and artistic mathematical proofs...
> 
> View attachment 93805


In the line that says, factor, both sides of the equation are divided by x-y which is zero. Hence, the incorrect proof.

In my list I added Newton and Darwin, not equations but books they wrote. I also added a technological advance - the Wright Brothers plane. Why? Because it's difficult to even define art, let alone define greatest art. We can't define greatest. Is an equation artful? I dunno, but equations, when correct, are beautiful. Are they discoveries or inventions? I dunno?


----------



## Phil loves classical

senza sordino said:


> In the line that says, factor, both sides of the equation are divided by x-y which is zero. Hence, the incorrect proof.
> 
> In my list I added Newton and Darwin, not equations but books they wrote. I also added a technological advance - the Wright Brothers plane. Why? Because it's difficult to even define art, let alone define greatest art. We can't define greatest. Is an equation artful? I dunno, but equations, when correct, are beautiful. Are they discoveries or inventions? I dunno?


The light bulb is the greatest work of art by Mankind. No what, the prism, how can anything that divides white light into a colour spectrum not be a work of art? This is getting confusing.


----------



## Becca

senza sordino said:


> In the line that says, factor, both sides of the equation are divided by x-y which is zero. Hence, the incorrect proof.


...and the prize goes to senza sordino!


----------



## hpowders

Bettina said:


> I just realized that my list is completely male-dominated - it does not contain a single work created by a woman. I honestly cannot think of any work by a woman which (in my humble opinion) belongs in the top 50 masterpieces. Perhaps this means that I've been brainwashed by the patriarchy...in any case, *I'm proud of my list and I stand by it, even if it is not **politically correct![*/QUOTE]
> 
> Atta boy!!!!


----------



## AfterHours

Myriadi said:


> This must be one of the most bizzare polls I've come across. Not only paintings, poetry, architecture, and music are all mixed into one, but the 6000 years of recorded history have to be understood as yielding only 50 truly great works.
> 
> What I mean is, here's a quick list of 10 incredible works of art I just thought of, all of which date from several thousand years ago:
> 
> 1. The Löwenmensch figurine - unknown, modern-day Germany (c.35000-40000 BP)
> 2. The Swimming Reindeer - unknown, modern-day France (c. 13000 BP)
> 3. Okunev culture ritual steles - unknown, Okunev culture, modern-day Khakassia, Russia (c. 3000-4000 BP)
> 4. Nazca Lines - unknown, Nazca culture, modern-day Peru (c. 2000-2500 BP)
> 5. The Epic of Gilgamesh - unknown, modern-day Iraq (c.2100-1800 BCE)
> 6. Deir el-Bahari, mortuary temple complex - various architects, modern-day Egypt (c. 2050-1500s BCE)
> 7. The Ambum Stone - unknown, modern-day Papua New Guinea (c.1500 BCE)
> 8. The Tale of the Doomed Prince - unknown, modern-day Egypt (c. 1550-1298 BCE)
> 9. The Mahābhārata - unknown, modern-day India (c. 4th century BCE)
> 10. Nazca Mantle (Brooklyn Museum) and Paracas textiles in general - unknown, modern-day Peru (c.300-200 BCE)
> 
> All of these are universally accepted as having vast historical significance, and I'm selecting these particular ones because they had a profound emotional/aesthetic effect on me personally. Which is why the Vedas aren't here, or the Egyptian Book of the Dead, or any Minoan art. And if I had to list all of the stuff that's normally - and justly - included in prehistoric and/or ancient art primers, it'd be easy to come up with at least 200 "greatest" works of art of immense importance and timeless aesthetic value - all of them from before c. 500 BCE.
> 
> So I can't imagine how to start making the list the OP requests. But it'd be interesting to look at how other people tackle this.


Interesting take, thank you.


----------



## AfterHours

senza sordino said:


> 1	Michaelangelo's David
> 2	Newton Principia
> 3	Athens Parthenon
> 4	Picasso Guernica
> 5	Beethoven 9
> 6	Bach Dm Chaconne
> 7	Darwin Origin of the Species
> 8	Lascaux Rock Art
> 9	Sistine Chapel
> 10	Monet Water lilies
> 
> 11	Da Vinci Mona Lisa
> 12	Shakespeare Hamlet
> 13	Taj Mahal
> 14	Tutankhamen Burial Mask
> 15	American Constitution
> 16	Stravinsky Rite of Spring
> 17	Wright Brothers Flyer
> 18	Westminster Abbey
> 19	Seurat Afternoon on the grand Jatte
> 20	Orwell 1984
> 
> 21	Vermeer The Girl with the Pearl Earing
> 22	Hagia Sofia
> 23	Venice
> 24	Stradivarius Violin
> 25	Verdi Aida
> 26	Beethoven SQ 14 in Am
> 27	Terracotta Army
> 28	Ankor Wat
> 29	Botticelli Birth of Venus
> 30	Van Gogh Starry Night
> 
> 31	Dickens David Copperfield
> 32	Conrad Heart of Darkness
> 33	Renoir Dance at the Moulin de la Galette
> 34	Sydney Opera House
> 35	Empire State Building
> 36	Debussy Prelude to the afternoon of a faun
> 37	Beatles Sgt Pepper
> 38	The Hermitage in St Petersburg
> 39	Rembrandt The Night Watch
> 40	Chagall I and the Village
> 
> 41	Fitzgerald The Great Gatsby
> 42	Hemingway The Sun Also Rises
> 43	Sagrada Familia
> 44	Steinbeck The Grapes of Wrath
> 45	Harper Lee To Kill a Mockingbird
> 46	Miles Davis Kind of Blue
> 47	Tolstoy Anna Karenina
> 48	Tolkien Lord of the Rings
> 49	Bernstein West Side Story
> 50	Brahms Violin Concerto
> 
> An impossible task. Some of this is my favourite art as opposed to important art, some is important but not my favourite. Some might not even be considered art by others. Greatest is impossible to define, even art is impossible to define.


Thank you, this is a fascinating list, with several favorites of mine (even if a number of them had to miss my cut).


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Newsom over the Beatles? Sure if you are Scaruffi. :lol: i gave the Royal Trux a full listen rather than only sampling, and it is quite intriguing, and you can't take it at face value.


Or, if you value emotional nuance and depth over superficiality? 






Congratulations on surviving the harrowing schizophrenic nightmare, torrential personality collapse, inward-wormhole-apocalypse and labyrinthine black pit of oblivion of Twin Infinitives :tiphat: Is your advice directed at mathisdermaler?


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes, Have one on me.
> 
> P.s. Her singing has a bit of Billie Holliday. Her music is a mix of pseudo-Classical and Jazz. But way too theatrical for me. I feel there is very little emotional depth, and very pretentious. I don't even feel it is very original, just an eclectic mix of certain conventions. I don't just feel neutral about the music, but it rubs me the wrong way, and drives me nuts :scold:


Totally okay with you disliking Newsom but I am curious if you have actually listened to her with an intent to assimilate the music, its emotions and expressive nuances? (that may sound condescending at first, but it's a serious question and I don't intend it that way). ... Particularly in terms of how personal her songs are and the degree of emotional depth expressed? The mental and spiritual exhaustion, the solemn states of poetic soliloquy, the wilting and funereal dreams, the elongated streams-of-consciousness, the longing nostalgia expressed through faded, theatrical re-enactments of her life and the world?


----------



## Guest

AfterHours said:


> You can use any qualitative criteria you like, whether so-called "best" or "favorite", or a mix of the two, etc.


I wouldn't describe either of these as helpful 'criteria'. And if you can't tell the difference between the two, a dictionary might come in handy.

(Portsmouth FC is my favourite football team, but they could hardly be described as the best, given that they are in League Two, not the Premiership.)


----------



## AfterHours

MacLeod said:


> I wouldn't describe either of these as helpful 'criteria'. And if you can't tell the difference between the two, a dictionary might come in handy.
> 
> (Portsmouth FC is my favourite football team, but they could hardly be described as the best, given that they are in League Two, not the Premiership.)


_You can use any qualitative criteria you like..._


----------



## Guest

AfterHours said:


> Ironic of you to post such a thing


Do I know you from somewhere?


----------



## Pat Fairlea

I'm still struggling to make any kind of a list. Here are two images. One is a small part of the Rouffignac animal frieze that I mentioned previously. Drawn with a charred stick onto unprepared bare rock by the fluttering light of a simple (probably) rush and fat lamp. Remarkable, and even more so when seen in situ in the cave.

The other is a portrait that I rate very highly. It is by James McNeil Whistler, and is of M. Theodore Duret. So far so obvious. Now look again. He is dressed as if ready to go out for the evening, to the theatre or opera, perhaps. Hat in hand, he could be stepping into his carriage. But he is also carrying a woman's coat and fan. His female companion for the evening was almost ready to go, then "Hold my things, I must....". And there he stands, aware of time passing, growing just a little impatient, hence the stony expression. So many portraits tell no story: this one is a fine exception, and that's why it would be on my list.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Pat Fairlea said:


> I'm still struggling to make any kind of a list. Here are two images. One is a small part of the Rouffignac animal frieze that I mentioned previously. Drawn with a charred stick onto unprepared bare rock by the fluttering light of a simple (probably) rush and fat lamp. Remarkable, and even more so when seen in situ in the cave.
> 
> The other is a portrait that I rate very highly. It is by James McNeil Whistler, and is of M. Theodore Duret. So far so obvious. Now look again. He is dressed as if ready to go out for the evening, to the theatre or opera, perhaps. Hat in hand, he could be stepping into his carriage. But he is also carrying a woman's coat and fan. His female companion for the evening was almost ready to go, then "Hold my things, I must....". And there he stands, aware of time passing, growing just a little impatient, hence the stony expression. So many portraits tell no story: this one is a fine exception, and that's why it would be on my list.
> 
> ]


It became a lot more complicated when historical importance became a large factor into determining great art. Then we started getting human inventions, cave-dwelling paintings and mathematical equations.


----------



## AfterHours

nathanb said:


> Do I know you from somewhere?


Nope -- or at least I doubt it.

It is a little bit odd of someone to announce in a forum about how they're not going to be a part of it. As such an announcement is unnecessary, what is the purpose of such a post if not to single oneself out as (even if in a small way) better than those who are actively partaking? This sort of thing, if such an announcement were to occur to a group in a "real-life" setting, would very likely be colored itself by arrogance.

But with the mask of the internet, obviously there's no way for me to tell for sure. My reply was a hunch, and more playful and flippant than serious.


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> Totally okay with you disliking Newsom but I am curious if you have actually listened to her with an intent to assimilate the music, its emotions and expressive nuances? (that may sound condescending at first, but it's a serious question and I don't intend it that way). ... Particularly in terms of how personal her songs are and the degree of emotional depth expressed? The mental and spiritual exhaustion, the solemn states of poetic soliloquy, the wilting and funereal dreams, the elongated streams-of-consciousness, the longing nostalgia expressed through faded, theatrical re-enactments of her life and the world?


I feel stream-of-consciousness to be fake. It's an ingenious literary style, but becomes too self-conscious to be genuine (even though the group Love also incorporates it into their lyrics). I feel everything about Joanna Newsom fake. Same goes for the Neutral Milk Hotel's Aeroplane over the Sea. I work of art eventually has to come to being greater than the sum of its parts.

With Joanna Newsom and Neutral Milk Hotel, I sense everything they are trying to do or impress me with on their terms, but am not convinced they have anything to back it up. Technically their music already isn't very complicated or very skillful, despite Newsom adding a lot of variety of instruments and vocal tricks, but I find at the end of their work to be hallow. Royal Trux was a different experience, in that they were doing actually achieving something beyond the sum of its parts. It's like they used mud and ugly parts, but put together something meaningful, while Newsom is the opposite, putting extravagant pieces together to something meaningless. I may not be right, but that is my view.


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> I feel stream-of-consciousness to be fake. It's an ingenious literary style, but becomes too self-conscious to be genuine (even though the group Love also incorporates it into their lyrics). I feel everything about Joanna Newsom fake. Same goes for the Neutral Milk Hotel's Aeroplane over the Sea. I work of art eventually has to come to being greater than the sum of its parts.
> 
> With Joanna Newsom and Neutral Milk Hotel, I sense everything they are trying to do or impress me with on their terms, but am not convinced they have anything to back it up. Technically their music already isn't very complicated or very skillful, despite Newsom adding a lot of variety of instruments and vocal tricks, but I find at the end of their work to be hallow. Royal Trux was a different experience, in that they were doing actually achieving something beyond the sum of its parts. It's like they used mud and ugly parts, but put together something meaningful, while Newsom is the opposite, putting extravagant pieces together to something meaningless. I may not be right, but that is my view.


I mean, I understand that these are apparently conclusions you've drawn, but I don't understand how you could draw them. It's contradictory. On one hand, you praise The Beatles, which I don't have a problem with in itself, but they could hardly be less complicated, more superficial or average among artists as musicians, composers, vocalists -- if such is the criteria you're using.

Again, I don't mind if you like her music or not, but your reasons and contradictory nature of them is puzzling.

What is your criteria for great music?

I ran across another thread where you were talking about how you don't like to get too into the music you're listening to, which, as Newsom's music is very immersive, would present quite an issue for you (among many other composers too). When listening to music in general, do you try to keep it at a distance or do you really listen? Do you not like music that tends to be "immersive"?

What are some examples of great composers that _aren't_ "impressing you on their terms"?

What is "technically unskillful" about a majority of Newsom's music -- particularly Ys and Have One On Me?

Which songs are "hollow"? Which are not genuine/fake?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

Anything by Varese


----------



## AfterHours

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Anything by Varese


R u kidding?


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

AfterHours said:


> R u kidding?


Me i never kid about Varese, just everything else


----------



## AfterHours

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> Me i never kid about Varese, just everything else


Right on, feel free to post a top 10 (or more) and I'll include it in the results. Varese or bust!


----------



## Xaltotun

Ok, this is totally ridiculous, but let it not be said I wouldn't be one to appreciate a good joke! So here goes! After five minutes, the list would be different by 50 to 75%!!! Meaning, I'm serious with my list, but the task itself is ridiculous... but fun!

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen!!!
2. Sistine chapel!!!
3. St. Peter’s!!!
4. Plato’s Republic!!!
5. The Laokoon Group!!!
6. Oresteia!!!
7. The Aeneid!!!
8. The Bible!!!
9. Missa Solemnis!!!
10. B minor mass!!!
11. Paradise Lost!!
12. Bruckner symphony 5!!
13. Ivan the Terrible!!
14. Iason!!
15. Intervention of the Sabine Women!!
16. Andrei Rublev!!
17. The Iliad!!
18. Battleship Potemkin!!
19. Sunrise!!
20. Amiens Cathedral!!
21. Theseus and the Minotaur!
22. Jerusalem Delivered!
23. Critique of Judgement!
24. Hagia Sophia!
25. Apollo Belvedere!
26. Het Steen!
27. La Grande Illusion!
28. Brothers Karamazov!
29. Pietá!
30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni!
31. Parthenon (bah, should be earlier…)
32. Transfiguration of Christ
33. Piano sonata in B minor
34. Diary of a Country Priest
35. Pensées
36. Requiem fragment
37. Moby Dick
38. Parsifal
39. Bruckner symphony 8
40. Die Zauberberg
41. Gargantua and Pantagruel
42. Il Gattopardo
43. Dürer self-portrait
44. The annunciation (Titian, late work)
45. Villa Savoye
46. Crucifixion (Tintoretto)
47. Faust
48. Die Schöpfung
49. The Fall of Phaeton
50. Gurrelieder

Artist names omitted for the most part, for extra ridiculousness!
This was a very fun exercise!
And the best part of this thread is that the list tells you about the person who wrote it. I'm always interested about the personalities of the TC people, and this one of the best ways to shed light to that.


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> I mean, I understand that these are apparently conclusions you've drawn, but I don't understand how you could draw them. It's contradictory. On one hand, you praise The Beatles, which I don't have a problem with in itself, but they could hardly be less complicated, more superficial or average among artists as musicians, composers, vocalists -- if such is the criteria you're using.
> 
> Again, I don't mind if you like her music or not, but your reasons and contradictory nature of them is puzzling.
> 
> What is your criteria for great music?
> 
> I ran across another thread where you were talking about how you don't like to get too into the music you're listening to, which, as Newsom's music is very immersive, would present quite an issue for you (among many other composers too). When listening to music in general, do you try to keep it at a distance or do you really listen? Do you not like music that tends to be "immersive"?
> 
> What are some examples of great composers that _aren't_ "impressing you on their terms"?
> 
> What is "technically unskillful" about a majority of Newsom's music -- particularly Ys and Have One On Me?
> 
> Which songs are "hollow"? Which are not genuine/fake?


It is all subjective. You can have all the ingredients but not the right recipe. The recipe where everything comes together is subjective. For me, the Beatles succeed overall where Newsom has failed, to convince me there is any artistic value beyond going through the motions. I don't find the Beatles successful in everything (She's Leaving Home is pseudo-classical garbage in my mind).

About trying to to let anything get to me too much, is I view Art as an illusion, just my opinion shared with another guy's philosophical view. I don't think of a work of art as having a life of its own, or greater than what an artist might make of it (transcending wisdom and knowledge was the context regarding Beethoven's String Quartets) and speak to us from the "beyond", which leads to undue adoration. I do try to immerse myself on the artists terms or else I would miss out on a lot of good stuff, but never to a point where I can "lose" myself, or else I could find myself carrying out Hitler's orders (get brainwashed), when the appreciation of art actually gets lost, and I ignore any flaws and get carried away.


----------



## EddieRUKiddingVarese

AfterHours said:


> Right on, feel free to post a top 10 (or more) and I'll include it in the results. Varese or bust!


top ten depends on the day for me
1. Ameriques 
2. Poeme Electronique
3. _Hyperprism
_4. _Integrales_
5. _Octandre_
6. _Density 21.5_
7. _Ecuatorial_
8. _Offrandes_
9. _Deserts_
10. _Arcana_


----------



## Phil loves classical

EddieRUKiddingVarese said:


> top ten depends on the day for me
> 1. Ameriques
> 2. Poeme Electronique
> 3. _Hyperprism
> _4. _Integrales_
> 5. _Octandre_
> 6. _Density 21.5_
> 7. _Ecuatorial_
> 8. _Offrandes_
> 9. _Deserts_
> 10. _Arcana_


I've got Hyperprism in my list. Let's hope it beats out Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach.


----------



## Don Fatale

It'll take me a while to compile a true list and I might choose just one from each artistic discipline. 

Meanwhile I'm delighted to see Joanna Newsom pop up, and creating the same kind of disruption that happens in rock forums. I find her work exceptional and would certainly be representing rock/pop/whatever in my upcoming list.


----------



## AfterHours

Xaltotun said:


> Ok, this is totally ridiculous, but let it not be said I wouldn't be one to appreciate a good joke! So here goes! After five minutes, the list would be different by 50 to 75%!!! Meaning, I'm serious with my list, but the task itself is ridiculous... but fun!
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen!!!
> 2. Sistine chapel!!!
> 3. St. Peter's!!!
> 4. Plato's Republic!!!
> 5. The Laokoon Group!!!
> 6. Oresteia!!!
> 7. The Aeneid!!!
> 8. The Bible!!!
> 9. Missa Solemnis!!!
> 10. B minor mass!!!
> 11. Paradise Lost!!
> 12. Bruckner symphony 5!!
> 13. Ivan the Terrible!!
> 14. Iason!!
> 15. Intervention of the Sabine Women!!
> 16. Andrei Rublev!!
> 17. The Iliad!!
> 18. Battleship Potemkin!!
> 19. Sunrise!!
> 20. Amiens Cathedral!!
> 21. Theseus and the Minotaur!
> 22. Jerusalem Delivered!
> 23. Critique of Judgement!
> 24. Hagia Sophia!
> 25. Apollo Belvedere!
> 26. Het Steen!
> 27. La Grande Illusion!
> 28. Brothers Karamazov!
> 29. Pietá!
> 30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni!
> 31. Parthenon (bah, should be earlier…)
> 32. Transfiguration of Christ
> 33. Piano sonata in B minor
> 34. Diary of a Country Priest
> 35. Pensées
> 36. Requiem fragment
> 37. Moby Dick
> 38. Parsifal
> 39. Bruckner symphony 8
> 40. Die Zauberberg
> 41. Gargantua and Pantagruel
> 42. Il Gattopardo
> 43. Dürer self-portrait
> 44. The annunciation (Titian, late work)
> 45. Villa Savoye
> 46. Crucifixion (Tintoretto)
> 47. Faust
> 48. Die Schöpfung
> 49. The Fall of Phaeton
> 50. Gurrelieder
> 
> Artist names omitted for the most part, for extra ridiculousness!
> This was a very fun exercise!
> And the best part of this thread is that the list tells you about the person who wrote it. I'm always interested about the personalities of the TC people, and this one of the best ways to shed light to that.


----------



## AfterHours

Don Fatale said:


> It'll take me a while to compile a true list and I might choose just one from each artistic discipline.
> 
> Meanwhile I'm delighted to see Joanna Newsom pop up, and creating the same kind of disruption that happens in rock forums. I find her work exceptional and would certainly be representing rock/pop/whatever in my upcoming list.


Great, looking forward to what you come up with. Agreed about Newsom :tiphat:


----------



## AfterHours

Xaltotun said:


> Ok, this is totally ridiculous, but let it not be said I wouldn't be one to appreciate a good joke! So here goes! After five minutes, the list would be different by 50 to 75%!!! Meaning, I'm serious with my list, but the task itself is ridiculous... but fun!
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen!!!
> 2. Sistine chapel!!!
> 3. St. Peter's!!!
> 4. Plato's Republic!!!
> 5. The Laokoon Group!!!
> 6. Oresteia!!!
> 7. The Aeneid!!!
> 8. The Bible!!!
> 9. Missa Solemnis!!!
> 10. B minor mass!!!
> 11. Paradise Lost!!
> 12. Bruckner symphony 5!!
> 13. Ivan the Terrible!!
> 14. Iason!!
> 15. Intervention of the Sabine Women!!
> 16. Andrei Rublev!!
> 17. The Iliad!!
> 18. Battleship Potemkin!!
> 19. Sunrise!!
> 20. Amiens Cathedral!!
> 21. Theseus and the Minotaur!
> 22. Jerusalem Delivered!
> 23. Critique of Judgement!
> 24. Hagia Sophia!
> 25. Apollo Belvedere!
> 26. Het Steen!
> 27. La Grande Illusion!
> 28. Brothers Karamazov!
> 29. Pietá!
> 30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni!
> 31. Parthenon (bah, should be earlier…)
> 32. Transfiguration of Christ
> 33. Piano sonata in B minor
> 34. Diary of a Country Priest
> 35. Pensées
> 36. Requiem fragment
> 37. Moby Dick
> 38. Parsifal
> 39. Bruckner symphony 8
> 40. Die Zauberberg
> 41. Gargantua and Pantagruel
> 42. Il Gattopardo
> 43. Dürer self-portrait
> 44. The annunciation (Titian, late work)
> 45. Villa Savoye
> 46. Crucifixion (Tintoretto)
> 47. Faust
> 48. Die Schöpfung
> 49. The Fall of Phaeton
> 50. Gurrelieder
> 
> Artist names omitted for the most part, for extra ridiculousness!
> This was a very fun exercise!
> And the best part of this thread is that the list tells you about the person who wrote it. I'm always interested about the personalities of the TC people, and this one of the best ways to shed light to that.


Love your selections by the way, despite the utter ridiculousness you had to go through! :lol:


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> It is all subjective. You can have all the ingredients but not the right recipe. The recipe where everything comes together is subjective. For me, the Beatles succeed overall where Newsom has failed, to convince me there is any artistic value beyond going through the motions. I don't find the Beatles successful in everything (She's Leaving Home is pseudo-classical garbage in my mind).
> 
> About trying to to let anything get to me too much, is I view Art as an illusion, just my opinion shared with another guy's philosophical view. I don't think of a work of art as having a life of its own, or greater than what an artist might make of it (transcending wisdom and knowledge was the context regarding Beethoven's String Quartets) and speak to us from the "beyond", which leads to undue adoration. I do try to immerse myself on the artists terms or else I would miss out on a lot of good stuff, but never to a point where I can "lose" myself, or else I could find myself carrying out Hitler's orders (get brainwashed), when the appreciation of art actually gets lost, and I ignore any flaws and get carried away.


Yes, of course (and thankfully) it is subjective, hence my questions about your point of view. I really am curious about the following:

What is your criteria for great music?

I ran across another thread where you were talking about how you don't like to get too into the music you're listening to, which, as Newsom's music is very immersive, would present quite an issue for you (among many other composers too). When listening to music in general, do you try to keep it at a distance or do you really listen? Do you not like music that tends to be "immersive"? *Seems like you pretty much answered this one, but just in case there's more to say...*

What are some examples of great composers that aren't "impressing you on their terms"?

What is "technically unskillful" about a majority of Newsom's music -- particularly Ys and Have One On Me?

Which songs are "hollow"? Which are not genuine/fake?


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> I've got Hyperprism in my list. Let's hope it beats out Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach.


Haha, good luck


----------



## AfterHours

Xaltotun said:


> Ok, this is totally ridiculous, but let it not be said I wouldn't be one to appreciate a good joke! So here goes! After five minutes, the list would be different by 50 to 75%!!! Meaning, I'm serious with my list, but the task itself is ridiculous... but fun!
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen!!!
> 2. Sistine chapel!!!
> 3. St. Peter's!!!
> 4. Plato's Republic!!!
> 5. The Laokoon Group!!!
> 6. Oresteia!!!
> 7. The Aeneid!!!
> 8. The Bible!!!
> 9. Missa Solemnis!!!
> 10. B minor mass!!!
> 11. Paradise Lost!!
> 12. Bruckner symphony 5!!
> 13. Ivan the Terrible!!
> 14. Iason!!
> 15. Intervention of the Sabine Women!!
> 16. Andrei Rublev!!
> 17. The Iliad!!
> 18. Battleship Potemkin!!
> 19. Sunrise!!
> 20. Amiens Cathedral!!
> 21. Theseus and the Minotaur!
> 22. Jerusalem Delivered!
> 23. Critique of Judgement!
> 24. Hagia Sophia!
> 25. Apollo Belvedere!
> 26. Het Steen!
> 27. La Grande Illusion!
> 28. Brothers Karamazov!
> 29. Pietá!
> 30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni!
> 31. Parthenon (bah, should be earlier…)
> 32. Transfiguration of Christ
> 33. Piano sonata in B minor
> 34. Diary of a Country Priest
> 35. Pensées
> 36. Requiem fragment
> 37. Moby Dick
> 38. Parsifal
> 39. Bruckner symphony 8
> 40. Die Zauberberg
> 41. Gargantua and Pantagruel
> 42. Il Gattopardo
> 43. Dürer self-portrait
> 44. The annunciation (Titian, late work)
> 45. Villa Savoye
> 46. Crucifixion (Tintoretto)
> 47. Faust
> 48. Die Schöpfung
> 49. The Fall of Phaeton
> 50. Gurrelieder
> 
> Artist names omitted for the most part, for extra ridiculousness!
> This was a very fun exercise!
> And the best part of this thread is that the list tells you about the person who wrote it. I'm always interested about the personalities of the TC people, and this one of the best ways to shed light to that.


A couple points to verify.

-By "Sistine Chapel" I am assuming you mean Michelangelo's portion (Ceiling & Last Judgment)?
-By "Requiem fragment" I am assuming you mean Mozart's?
-By "Faust" are you referring to the original story? Murnau's silent film? the 1971 Krautrock album?
-By "Paradise Lost" I am assuming you're referring to Milton's epic poem and not anything else?
-Also for any buildings, it would be helpful if you distinguished if you're referring to them as "masterpieces of architecture" or are referring to a "painting or sculpture housed by them"
-By "The Bible" I am assuming you're referring to God's rendition? (just kidding, no clarification necessary) :angel:


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> Yes, of course (and thankfully) it is subjective, hence my questions about your point of view. I really am curious about the following:
> 
> What is your criteria for great music?
> 
> I ran across another thread where you were talking about how you don't like to get too into the music you're listening to, which, as Newsom's music is very immersive, would present quite an issue for you (among many other composers too). When listening to music in general, do you try to keep it at a distance or do you really listen? Do you not like music that tends to be "immersive"? *Seems like you pretty much answered this one, but just in case there's more to say...*
> 
> What are some examples of great composers that aren't "impressing you on their terms"?
> 
> What is "technically unskillful" about a majority of Newsom's music -- particularly Ys and Have One On Me?
> 
> Which songs are "hollow"? Which are not genuine/fake?


I shouldn't push my views so much actually. But since your curious... my criteria in music is orignality, or at least creativity, even if it isn't so original. Emotional response is secondary to me, since I only feel emotional about very few works (pretty much only in Classical, hence my handle), but it does score something in those rare cases. I listened to the whole 1st CD of Have one on Me, and the title track itself at least 4 times. I just don't find anything coming together. Her singing, the tunes, rhythms, the instruments. She is not origiinal, I can mentally trace where all the influences are coming from, and it's a big mix, so I open myself to what she does with those pieces (scattered from classical, folk, country, jazz, pop) and don't find anything creative that holds together as a organic whole. All the parts remain separate. Usually over time, certain things start to gel, but it never did in the slightest for me. But I much prefer her to Neutral Milk Hotel who, like what that Neward T hates, keep repeating the same few chords, with little development, and just increasing the intensity. I think they were obviously influenced by the Kinks, and have a bit of the early Violent Femmes.

P.s.

Compare the vocals here:











Add some Kinkish harmonies to the Violent Femmes, and the horn and you have Neutral Milk Hotel, except it is not as good as the parts they were taken from, IMO


----------



## Meyerbeer Smith

What's greater: _North by Northwest_ or the Sistine Chapel?

How do you compare them to Jaisalmer, the Palais Garnier, Whistler's Peacock Room, Angkor Wat, the bronze heads of Ifé, the statue of Mithras slaying the bull, or Breughel's _Fall of the Rebel Angels_?

It's like trying to compare a blue whale to a hummingbird to a nematode. Each is a great example of what it does; it's perfectly adapted to its niche. A blue whale, though, is a poor hummingbird.

Let's perform a simple experiment. Try tossing a blue whale into the air. (Ignore that hernia; you can do it - I believe in you!) Does it fly? No, it falls to earth with a heavy thud. As you crawl out from under its blubbery carcass, you realise that some things just aren't meant to fly. Nor, as Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling's famous experiments showed, are some birds meant to fly underwater. And if you slice a hummingbird in two and expect each half to wriggle away, you'll be disappointed. Believe me, I've tried.

Cooking is an art. So we could ask: What tastes better, a rock cake or Borobodur? I find that Gothic cathedrals have a lovely crunchy texture, but that the Pyramids are too gravelly for my taste.

Here are 50 things that I think are great - _NOT_ things that I think are the 50 greatest.

*Music*

Beethoven's _Fidelio_
Rossini
Meyerbeer's four grands opéras
Berlioz's _Benvenuto Cellini_ & _Les Troyens_
Mendelssohn's _Midsummer Night's Dream_
Moniuszko's _Straszny dwór_
Mussorgsky's _Boris Godunov_
The operas of Massenet
Gilbert and Sullivan
Richard Strauss
The Beatles
The musicals of Stephen Sondheim
Glass's _Akhnaten_ and _Satyagraha_

*Theatre & Literature*
Greek drama (Aeschylus, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes) 
The plays of Shakespeare (What, even _Titus Andronicus_?)
Lessing's _Nathan der Weise_
Dumas's _Count of Monte Cristo_
Hugo's _Notre-Dame de Paris_ and the Preface to _Cromwell_
The works of Dickens
The plays of Shaw
Saki's short stories
The detective story (especially Conan Doyle, G.K. Chesterton, Agatha Christie and John Dickson Carr)
Gibbons's _Cold Comfort Farm_
Hesse's _Glass Bead Game_
Branch Cabell's _Jurgen_
Peake's _Gormenghast_
White's _Once and Future King_
Michael Ende's _Neverending Story_
Terry Pratchett's Discworld books
Rushdie's _Enchantress of Florence_

*Cinema*
The films of Hitchcock
_Ivan Grozny_
The James Bond films
_The Lion in Winter_
_The Producers_
The Indiana Jones movies

*Radio and television*
_The Goon Show_
_Doctor Who_
_The Avengers_
_Monty Python's Flying Circus_
_I, Claudius_
David Attenborough's _Lives_
_The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
_Blackadder_

*Comic strips*
_Tintin_
_Asterix_

*Computer games*
_King's Quest_
_Space Quest_
_Quest for Glory_
_The Last Express_


----------



## Phil loves classical

Video Games that's a first! That list is quite entertaining.


----------



## AfterHours

SimonTemplar said:


> What's greater: _North by Northwest_ or the Sistine Chapel?
> 
> How do you compare them to Jaisalmer, the Palais Garnier, Whistler's Peacock Room, Angkor Wat, the bronze heads of Ifé, the statue of Mithras slaying the bull, or Breughel's _Fall of the Rebel Angels_?
> 
> It's like trying to compare a blue whale to a hummingbird to a nematode. Each is a great example of what it does; it's perfectly adapted to its niche. A blue whale, though, is a poor hummingbird.
> 
> Let's perform a simple experiment. Try tossing a blue whale into the air. (Ignore that hernia; you can do it - I believe in you!) Does it fly? No, it falls to earth with a heavy thud. As you crawl out from under its blubbery carcass, you realise that some things just aren't meant to fly. Nor, as Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling's famous experiments showed, are some birds meant to fly underwater. And if you slice a hummingbird in two and expect each half to wriggle away, you'll be disappointed. Believe me, I've tried.
> 
> Cooking is an art. So we could ask: What tastes better, a rock cake or Borobodur? I find that Gothic cathedrals have a lovely crunchy texture, but that the Pyramids are too gravelly for my taste.
> 
> Here are 50 things that I think are great - _NOT_ things that I think are the 50 greatest.
> 
> *Music*
> 
> Beethoven's _Fidelio_
> Rossini
> Meyerbeer's four grands opéras
> Berlioz's _Benvenuto Cellini_ & _Les Troyens_
> Mendelssohn's _Midsummer Night's Dream_
> Moniuszko's _Straszny dwór_
> Mussorgsky's _Boris Godunov_
> The operas of Massenet
> Gilbert and Sullivan
> Richard Strauss
> The Beatles
> The musicals of Stephen Sondheim
> Glass's _Akhnaten_ and _Satyagraha_
> 
> *Theatre & Literature*
> Greek drama (Aeschylus, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes)
> The plays of Shakespeare (What, even _Titus Andronicus_?)
> Lessing's _Nathan der Weise_
> Dumas's _Count of Monte Cristo_
> Hugo's _Notre-Dame de Paris_ and the Preface to _Cromwell_
> The works of Dickens
> The plays of Shaw
> Saki's short stories
> The detective story (especially Conan Doyle, G.K. Chesterton, Agatha Christie and John Dickson Carr)
> Gibbons's _Cold Comfort Farm_
> Hesse's _Glass Bead Game_
> Branch Cabell's _Jurgen_
> Peake's _Gormenghast_
> White's _Once and Future King_
> Michael Ende's _Neverending Story_
> Terry Pratchett's Discworld books
> Rushdie's _Enchantress of Florence_
> 
> *Cinema*
> The films of Hitchcock
> _Ivan Grozny_
> The James Bond films
> _The Lion in Winter_
> _The Producers_
> The Indiana Jones movies
> 
> *Radio and television*
> _The Goon Show_
> _Doctor Who_
> _The Avengers_
> _Monty Python's Flying Circus_
> _I, Claudius_
> David Attenborough's _Lives_
> _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
> _Blackadder_
> 
> *Comic strips*
> _Tintin_
> _Asterix_
> 
> *Computer games*
> _King's Quest_
> _Space Quest_
> _Quest for Glory_
> _The Last Express_


Very intriguing list and thank you for your point-of-view! Please adjust any of your selections that group several works together into single submissions (such as "Richard Strauss", "the works of..." "the films of...", "the operas of..." "Greek drama", etc)


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> I shouldn't push my views so much actually. But since your curious... my criteria in music is orignality, or at least creativity, even if it isn't so original. Emotional response is secondary to me, since I only feel emotional about very few works (pretty much only in Classical, hence my handle), but it does score something in those rare cases. I listened to the whole 1st CD of Have one on Me, and the title track itself at least 4 times. I just don't find anything coming together. Her singing, the tunes, rhythms, the instruments. She is not origiinal, I can mentally trace where all the influences are coming from, and it's a big mix, so I open myself to what she does with those pieces (scattered from classical, folk, country, jazz, pop) and don't find anything creative that holds together as a organic whole. All the parts remain separate. Usually over time, certain things start to gel, but it never did in the slightest for me. But I much prefer her to Neutral Milk Hotel who, like what that Neward T hates, keep repeating the same few chords, with little development, and just increasing the intensity. I think they were obviously influenced by the Kinks, and have a bit of the early Violent Femmes.
> 
> P.s.
> 
> Compare the vocals here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add some Kinkish harmonies to the Violent Femmes, and the horn and you have Neutral Milk Hotel, except it is not as good as the parts they were taken from, IMO


First, who the hell cares what Neward T "thinks he thinks" about NMH or Rock music? He is unbelievably biased against the subject and I see no evidence of any kind that he has made any real attempt to assimilate any of the great rock albums of history whatsoever.

2nd: The Kinks and Violent Femmes were great bands in their own right, but no, you would not have Neutral Milk Hotel. Those artists could practice together for the next several years straight and would still fail to replicate In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. There is no cover band in the entire world that could re-create that album. Its spontaneous combustion of events is inimitable and captures a singular, "lightning-in-a-bottle" experience like few others in rock history. Mangum and company themselves probably could not re-create it as heard on the original. I find such dismissals of music based on cursory observations of mild influences here or there, to be a very superficial way to evaluate music: "add a horn and you have Neutral Milk Hotel". Is this serious? Including the ridiculous statement of Joanna Newsom that "she is not original". There is absolutely no confluence of styles and vocals as hers in the history of music -- period. You will find various parts of songs and such that echo others of course (such as Lisa Germano's On the Way Down from Moon Palace; Jane Siberry; Kate Bush; Joni Mitchell's Hejira; Bob Dylan's Blonde On Blonde/Van Morrison's Astral Weeks [Ys]) ... but what about the whole? I am very well versed in practically every seminal album across the whole of Rock and Jazz history (completely aside from Classical), from the 50s-to the-2010s, and if you are going to keep claiming she is "not original", please link me to such an extraordinary phenomenon immediately as I'd like to discover it too. Fine if it doesn't gel for you, but in terms of originality you might as well dismiss the likes of Beethoven for showing some influence from Mozart or Bach, if such a superficial view of creativity is indeed your criteria. I guess his 3rd Symphony wasn't original after all because it echos Bach's fugues/Mozart's Jupiter Symphony? Etc. *ALL* of music history is a constant passing of the torch, one artist building upon another. While Newsom (and NMH) are obviously not as original as The Beethovens/The Mozarts/The Bachs of history, they are _far_ more original than the vast majority.

If you want to talk influences for In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, I would consider the following examples far more direct than those you mention: 












[video]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pearls+before+swine+balaklava[/video]

And of course Guided by Voices. There are also touches of Syd Barrett/early Pink Floyd, and perhaps some Violent Femmes/Minutemen/The Kinks as well as you mention, but these do not equate to the whole.

Honestly I am not even quite sure why you brought up In the Aeroplane Over the Sea as I've only mentioned it in relation to Strawberry Fields Forever on another thread.

What makes the album great has little to do with those bands you mention. In the Aeroplane Over the Sea captures a particularly moving emotional synthesis and parallel dichotomy of very intense sorrow, sympathy and nostalgia while also immersed in child-like wonder and awestruck ecstacy. It is both relentlessly depressing and relentlessly, vividly alive. It embraces life while destroyed by its horrible devastation. Confronting Anne Frank, the Holocaust and a desperate race and plea to reverse time and history, it is among the most personally revealing, fearless and uninhibited rock albums in existence. It eclipses the ferocity, vigor and evangelical fury of peak Bob Dylan. It eclipses the ragged glories and moral odysseys of the most inspired Neil Young. Its songs and melodies seem like they could go on forever, endlessly cyclic lullabies, in perpetually circular streams-of-consciousness of wide-eyed awe and gut-wrenching sorrow. Mangum's startlingly alive and indescribably personal performance is probably the most inspired in the entire history of rock music. It seems impossible that a vocal performance could be so dramatically outrageous and yearning so far beyond the usual limit of human expression into a state of honesty so reckless that it is a shock to the system. It reaches a heightened force-of-will of desperate outpouring, an overwhelming fever dream that is exploding into hyper reality from deep-seated surrealistic visions, transcending time and place and the limits of human connection into an emotionally revolutionary experience that makes the music at once timelessly familiar and exhilaratingly new. Its acoustic guitars pounce with vivid life, in cyclic motions, mirroring microcosms of the circular merry-go-round of time and place that the album traverses. This creates the sensation of not just the whole being a space-time-vacuum and merry-go-round, but each of its interweaving songs too, producing an endlessly circular pattern, an endless spiral circling back unto itself. Its horns break into funereal calls and noble, slumped and broken funeral marches. Its singing saws become the ghost of Anne Frank hovering through the music, haunting the singer. Eclectic instruments break free into strange calls and distortions, personifying the sensation of torment and death, of bodies twisting, of awkward sexual union. Its guitars and drums explode into controlled, chaotic abandon, gyrating movement, and rapid-fire, flashing "montages" of visions. Mangum's vocals leap out of the music in desperate, uninhibited, awestruck visionary flurries. The music erupts in a breathtaking synthesis, as if it is racing against the punishment of time. The album captures a particular emotional state as if the protagonist cannot escape the nostalgia of the World War II era and the nostalgia of childhood. He is hurtling through time and space, forced into its songs which capture these various desperate moments and outcomes. In several traumatic, spontaneous flurries he sings as if his very life depends on it, desperately yelling at dead faces to stay alive just this once, to not let the past repeat itself. He is constantly fraught by a profound sympathy, his voice shaking, breaking its pitch, delusional, catatonic, psychologically devastated as if trapped in recollections of the cradling arms of his mother, his undying bond and sympathy as if from the vantage point of a newborn fearing abandonment.

I'm out of time for now, but further analysis can be found in essays such as this: http://gloriousnoise.com/2008/transience_and_transcendence_1


----------



## Xaltotun

AfterHours said:


> A couple points to verify.
> 
> -By "Sistine Chapel" I am assuming you mean Michelangelo's portion (Ceiling & Last Judgment)?
> -By "Requiem fragment" I am assuming you mean Mozart's?
> -By "Faust" are you referring to the original story? Murnau's silent film? the 1971 Krautrock album?
> -By "Paradise Lost" I am assuming you're referring to Milton's epic poem and not anything else?
> -Also for any buildings, it would be helpful if you distinguished if you're referring to them as "masterpieces of architecture" or are referring to a "painting or sculpture housed by them"
> -By "The Bible" I am assuming you're referring to God's rendition? (just kidding, no clarification necessary) :angel:


Thank you for your interest! The answers are: Yes, Yes, Goethe's story (which is not "original" but based on older sources) although the Murnau is fantastic too, Yes, and the combination of the Old and the New testaments in whichever version you prefer, the differences are not that big IMHO.

I know I was being deliberately vague with the buildings (and everything else)... in the spirit of joyous and excited proclamations of greatness rising from the memory uncensored (because too much analysis will just kill this silly thread)! Here are some clarifications. Sistine Chapel, like I said, just the paintings. St. Peter's, Amiens Cathedral, Hagia Sophia, Parthenon, Villa Savoye, just the architecture!

Art is awesome! Hallelujah!


----------



## Xaltotun

We could have a spin-off thread for greatest video games in the community forum...

Here's mine.

1. Nethack
2. Dungeon Master/Chaos Strikes Back
3. LARN
4. Populous
5. Loom
6. Tetris


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Emotional response is secondary to me, since I only feel emotional about very few works (pretty much only in Classical, hence my handle), but it does score something in those rare cases.


It was late when I responded and I missed this part. Why are you bothering to make claims about Newsom/Aeroplane and their merits in Rock music when you hardly even respond to the genre to begin with?


----------



## CMonteverdi

And here is my humble attempt:

Dante Divina Commedia
Michelangelo Sistine Chapel
Monteverdi Vespres 1610
Mozart Figaro
Beethoven IX symphony
Leopardi Canti
J.S. Bach Cantatas
Caravaggio St. Matthew frescos in San Luigi dei Francesi
Van Gogh Starry night
Dostoevsky Bratja Karamazov
Bulgakov Master and Margarita
Rublev Spas (Saviour)
Masaccio tribute money
Mozart Don Giovanni
Pergolesi Stabat Mater
Victoria Tenebrae responsories
Brahms symphony 3
Brahms symphony 4
Star wars saga
The godfather saga
Tolkien LOTR
Michelangelo Pieta'
Venice basilica di San Marco
Kandinsky yellow red blue
Vivaldi 4 seasons
Pearl Jam Ten
John Coltrane a love supreme
U2 Joshua tree
Miles Davis kind of blue
Bob Dylan bootleg series V
Dunhill pipes
Frank Miller Daredevil (comics)


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> It was late when I responded and I missed this part. Why are you bothering to make claims about Newsom/Aeroplane and their merits in Rock music when you hardly even respond to the genre to begin with?


Even without much emotional response, I do have a lot of interest for it in other ways. I'm not really making claims, but just stating my subjective opinion. I could go on to explain why I think the Beatles are great, etc. When you dismissed them as superficial. It was more of a comparison of that view with my view of Newsom and Neutral Milk.


----------



## Guest

AfterHours said:


> Nope -- or at least I doubt it.
> 
> It is a little bit odd of someone to announce in a forum about how they're not going to be a part of it. As such an announcement is unnecessary, what is the purpose of such a post if not to single oneself out as (even if in a small way) better than those who are actively partaking? This sort of thing, if such an announcement were to occur to a group in a "real-life" setting, would very likely be colored itself by arrogance.
> 
> But with the mask of the internet, obviously there's no way for me to tell for sure. My reply was a hunch, and more playful and flippant than serious.


I simply lean more towards "knowing nothing" than "knowing everything" in my worldview, and I would personally feel pretentious if I attempted to paste together my decent understanding of classical music with a far more superficial understanding of... every other form of art ever? I don't have the ambition for it, sorry.


----------



## Phil loves classical

This thread is fun, just based on pure bias. If everyone is so careful and fair in their evaluations, there should be no reply in this thread. The tone was already set early. If anyone is interested I can post a 10 essay on why Shane is the greatest work of Art ever.


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Even without much emotional response, I do have a lot of interest for it in other ways. I'm not really making claims, but just stating my subjective opinion. I could go on to explain why I think the Beatles are great, etc. When you dismissed them as superficial. It was more of a comparison of that view with my view of Newsom and Neutral Milk.


Ok, fair enough. I do not think all of The Beatles work is superficial, just much of it (especially pre-1967).


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> This thread is fun, just based on pure bias. If everyone is so careful and fair in their evaluations, there should be no reply in this thread. The tone was already set early. If anyone is interested I can post a 10 essay on why Shane is the greatest work of Art ever.


Go for it, that would be quite impressive! 10 words, right? :lol:


----------



## AfterHours

Xaltotun said:


> We could have a spin-off thread for greatest video games in the community forum...
> 
> Here's mine.
> 
> 1. Nethack
> 2. Dungeon Master/Chaos Strikes Back
> 3. LARN
> 4. Populous
> 5. Loom
> 6. Tetris


I hardly ever play videogames, but its a perfectly valid form of art for this poll :tiphat:


----------



## AfterHours

nathanb said:


> I simply lean more towards "knowing nothing" than "knowing everything" in my worldview, and I would personally feel pretentious if I attempted to paste together my decent understanding of classical music with a far more superficial understanding of... every other form of art ever? I don't have the ambition for it, sorry.


No worries, I left out various art forms for this very reason, so I understand where you're coming from.


----------



## Tchaikov6

To create a list of the top 50 greatest works would just be too hard... I'm not knowledgeable or experienced enough to make a list like that- I could definitely do my 50 favorite, but greatest... I can't decided that.


----------



## Bettina

Tchaikov6 said:


> To create a list of the top 50 greatest works would just be too hard... I'm not knowledgeable or experienced enough to make a list like that- I could definitely do my 50 favorite, but greatest... I can't decided that.


Please do list your 50 favorite works. That's basically what I did. I'm enjoying everybody's lists and I'd like to see yours.


----------



## Guest

AfterHours said:


> I do not think all of The Beatles work is superficial


Ah, evidence of a more helpful criterion - superficial / deep (?)


----------



## hpowders

topo morto said:


> My first 10 submissions:
> 
> Kenneth Wolstenholme's "They think it's all over" commentary
> Pyramids of Giza
> The Bible
> Maradona's handball goal in the World Cup
> The Qu'ran
> *SS Uniforms*
> The Chinese alphabet
> The Korean (hangul) alphabet
> The Arabic number system
> Flowered up - "Weekender"


Are you purposely attempting to be provocative here?


----------



## Sonata

What a fun idea! I'll think on it for awhile


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> Go for it, that would be quite impressive! 10 words, right? :lol:


Sure, ahem... Shane is the greatest work of Art by Mankind because it is a picture in motion with music, which automatically makes it better than any painting, or piece of stand alone music. Shane is the epitomy of good vs. evil, not a morally ambiguous movie like the Godfather, which already makes it better than almost every movie. Shane is exceptional in its exploration of non-retaliation until it is absolutely necessary. It has themes of unrequited love, dealing with one's past, the finding, love, and loss of a father-figure, etc. Every shot is poetry in motion. Are you convinced now?


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Sure, ahem... Shane is the greatest work of Art by Mankind because it is a picture in motion with music, which automatically makes it better than any painting, or piece of stand alone music. Shane is the epitomy of good vs. evil, not a morally ambiguous movie like the Godfather, which already makes it better than almost every movie. Shane is exceptional in its exploration of non-retaliation until it is absolutely necessary. It has themes of unrequited love, dealing with one's past, the finding, love, and loss of a father-figure, etc. Every shot is poetry in motion. Are you convinced now?


Yes, let me see here...

1. Shane - George Stevens (1953)
2. Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgement) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541) 
3. Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)

... ... ...


----------



## AfterHours

MacLeod said:


> Ah, evidence of a more helpful criterion - superficial / deep (?)


If you insist on using my criteria then here you are: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15503

:tiphat:


----------



## AfterHours

Tchaikov6 said:


> To create a list of the top 50 greatest works would just be too hard... I'm not knowledgeable or experienced enough to make a list like that- I could definitely do my 50 favorite, but greatest... I can't decided that.


Yes, favorite is where it's at. The more genuine, the better


----------



## Tchaikov6

Bettina said:


> Please do list your 50 favorite works. That's basically what I did. I'm enjoying everybody's lists and I'd like to see yours.


Well, here goes... (I'll split it up into my favorite literature/drama, visual arts, and music, in no particular order)

*Literature/Drama*
1. Death of a Salesman- Arthur Miller
2. Waiting for Godot- Beckett
3. Hamlet- Shakespeare
4. 1984- Orwell
5. To Kill a Mockingbird- Harper Lee
6. Catch-22- Joseph Heller
7. Of Mice and Men- Steinbeck
8. The Grapes of Wrath- Steinbeck
9. Harry Potter :lol: (not the deepest reading, but I quite enjoyed the series in all honesty)- JK Rowling
10. Brave New World- Aldous Huxley

*Visual Arts*
1. Guernica- Picasso
2. Persistence of Memory- Dali
3. The Scream- Munch
4. A Sunday Afternoon on la Grand Jatte- Seurat
5. The Last Supper- da Vinci

*Music*
1. Pathetique Symphony- Tchaikovsky
2. Symphony No. 2- Tchaikovsky
3. Symphony No. 7- Beethoven
4. Symphony No. 4- Mahler
5. Symphony No. 9- Mahler
6. Violin Concerto- Tchaikovsky
7. Piano Concerto No. 4- Beethoven
8. St. Matthew Passion- Bach
9. Christmas Oratorio- Bach
10. Concerto for 2 Violins- Bach
11. Piano Concerto No. 20- Mozart
12. Piano Concerto No. 21- Mozart
13. Symphony No. 40- Mozart
14. Symphony No. 41- Mozart
15. Symphony No. 4- Brahms
16. Double Concerto- Brahms
17. String Quintet- Schubert
18. Great Symphony- Schubert
19. Rite of Spring- Stravinsky
20. Symphony No. 3- Mahler
21. Also Sprach Zarathustra- Strauss
22. Petrouchka- Stravinsky
23. Piano Concerto in G- Ravel
24. Symphony No. 2- Sibelius
25. Violin Concerto- Sibelius
26. Symphony No. 4- Schumann
27. Violin Concerto- Mendelssohn
28. Violin Concerto No. 1- Shostakovich
29. Symphony No. 11- Shostakovich
30. Symphony No. 6- Beethoven
31. Hammerklavier Sonata- Beethoven
32. Symphony No. 5- Prokofiev
33. Symphony No. 5- Mahler
34. New World Symphony- Dvorak
35. Scheherazade- Rimsky-Korsakov

I'm sure all these favorites will change over time, though. Only a couple months ago not one Mahler or Shostakovich piece would have been on my list. But for the time being, these are all my favorites.


----------



## AfterHours

Tchaikov6 said:


> Well, here goes... (I'll split it up into my favorite literature/drama, visual arts, and music, in no particular order)
> 
> *Literature/Drama*
> 1. Death of a Salesman- Arthur Miller
> 2. Waiting for Godot- Beckett
> 3. Hamlet- Shakespeare
> 4. 1984- Orwell
> 5. To Kill a Mockingbird- Harper Lee
> 6. Catch-22- Joseph Heller
> 7. Of Mice and Men- Steinbeck
> 8. The Grapes of Wrath- Steinbeck
> 9. Harry Potter :lol: (not the deepest reading, but I quite enjoyed the series in all honesty)- JK Rowling
> 10. Brave New World- Aldous Huxley
> 
> *Visual Arts*
> 1. Guernica- Picasso
> 2. Persistence of Memory- Dali
> 3. The Scream- Munch
> 4. A Sunday Afternoon on la Grand Jatte- Seurat
> 5. The Last Supper- da Vinci
> 
> *Music*
> 1. Pathetique Symphony- Tchaikovsky
> 2. Symphony No. 2- Tchaikovsky
> 3. Symphony No. 7- Beethoven
> 4. Symphony No. 4- Mahler
> 5. Symphony No. 9- Mahler
> 6. Violin Concerto- Tchaikovsky
> 7. Piano Concerto No. 4- Beethoven
> 8. St. Matthew Passion- Bach
> 9. Christmas Oratorio- Bach
> 10. Concerto for 2 Violins- Bach
> 11. Piano Concerto No. 20- Mozart
> 12. Piano Concerto No. 21- Mozart
> 13. Symphony No. 40- Mozart
> 14. Symphony No. 41- Mozart
> 15. Symphony No. 4- Brahms
> 16. Double Concerto- Brahms
> 17. String Quintet- Schubert
> 18. Great Symphony- Schubert
> 19. Rite of Spring- Stravinsky
> 20. Symphony No. 3- Mahler
> 21. Also Sprach Zarathustra- Strauss
> 22. Petrouchka- Stravinsky
> 23. Piano Concerto in G- Ravel
> 24. Symphony No. 2- Sibelius
> 25. Violin Concerto- Sibelius
> 26. Symphony No. 4- Schumann
> 27. Violin Concerto- Mendelssohn
> 28. Violin Concerto No. 1- Shostakovich
> 29. Symphony No. 11- Shostakovich
> 30. Symphony No. 6- Beethoven
> 31. Hammerklavier Sonata- Beethoven
> 32. Symphony No. 5- Prokofiev
> 33. Symphony No. 5- Mahler
> 34. New World Symphony- Dvorak
> 35. Scheherazade- Rimsky-Korsakov
> 
> I'm sure all these favorites will change over time, though. Only a couple months ago not one Mahler or Shostakovich piece would have been on my list. But for the time being, these are all my favorites.


Thank you, dig your selections. Several of my all time favorites abound.


----------



## jailhouse

here's a completely random list of some of my favorite art things off the top of my head limited to films, tv, music, games. literally noone cares and this was a waste of my time :lol:

tristan und isolde
der ring
Aphex Twin selected ambient works volume 2
Guilty Gear XX Accent Core PlusR
sibelius' 5th symphony
Fricke's Baraka
Magma Kohntarkosz
beethoven's 9th symphony
Gorguts Obscura
mahler 9
Takemitsu November Steps
mahler 2
Stravinsky Rite of Spring
Kobayashi's Seppuku
Debussy preludes books 1 and 2
Messiaen's Vingt Regards
Messiaen's Quatour
Shostakovich 8th string quartet
Lynch's The Straight Story
Steve Reich's tehillim
Bartok's Concerto for orchestra
Bartok's string quartets (**** it its less than 3 hours)
Schnittke's Choir Concerto
Bruckner's 8th symphony
Can's Tago Mago
Yes Close to the Edge
King Crimson Red
Deathspell Omega Paracletus
Star trek TNG
The Sopranos
elder scrolls III: morrowind
final fantasy vii
Tarkovsky's Mirror
Kurosawa's Ikiru
Tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev
Fellini 8 1/2
Bergman seventh seal
Chris Marker La Jetee
Ligeti's etudes
scriabin's piano sonatas
Bach brandenberg concertos
Bach st matthew


----------



## AfterHours

jailhouse said:


> here's a completely random list of some of my favorite art things off the top of my head limited to films, tv, music, games. literally noone cares and this was a waste of my time :lol:
> 
> tristan und isolde
> der ring
> Aphex Twin selected ambient works volume 2
> Guilty Gear XX Accent Core PlusR
> sibelius' 5th symphony
> Fricke's Baraka
> Magma Kohntarkosz
> beethoven's 9th symphony
> Gorguts Obscura
> mahler 9
> Takemitsu November Steps
> mahler 2
> Stravinsky Rite of Spring
> Kobayashi's Seppuku
> Debussy preludes books 1 and 2
> Messiaen's Vingt Regards
> Messiaen's Quatour
> Shostakovich 8th string quartet
> Lynch's The Straight Story
> Steve Reich's tehillim
> Bartok's Concerto for orchestra
> Bartok's string quartets (**** it its less than 3 hours)
> Schnittke's Choir Concerto
> Bruckner's 8th symphony
> Can's Tago Mago
> Yes Close to the Edge
> King Crimson Red
> Deathspell Omega Paracletus
> Star trek TNG
> The Sopranos
> elder scrolls III: morrowind
> final fantasy vii
> Tarkovsky's Mirror
> Kurosawa's Ikiru
> Tarkovsky's Andrei Rublev
> Fellini 8 1/2
> Bergman seventh seal
> Chris Marker La Jetee
> Ligeti's etudes
> scriabin's piano sonatas
> Bach brandenberg concertos
> Bach st matthew


Right on thank you, please look over the format given in the OP...

"One last thing. Please submit your entries as follows so that it is as user friendly as possible for me to copy, paste and tally:

Title - Artist (Year of Completion) 
Ex: Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)"

...and please re-submit your list in application with this (you're not the only one I'll be requesting does so).

Also, which Brandeburg Concerto (otherwise it's 6 entries), which of Scriabin's Piano Sonatas, etc?


----------



## jailhouse

Lol no way am i doing that


----------



## AfterHours

jailhouse said:


> Lol no way am i doing that


Well, fair enough, it's not my fault you didn't read the OP and are unwilling to apply it. I'm not adding your submission to the results (not that you care. As you said, "a complete waste of time".) My life is way too busy to fix your mistakes and tally all the results, sorry.


----------



## AfterHours

TO ALL: Slight correction of the above... I'd prefer the release year be included on each entry as stated in the OP, but if you forgot and post as "Title-Artist" no corrections will be requested. However, please do remember, as it does make the tally easier.


----------



## AfterHours

jailhouse said:


> Lol no way am i doing that


Fwiw, I did think you made several excellent choices. Don't want that to go unacknowledged. These things can be hard to come up with!


----------



## AfterHours

SimonTemplar said:


> What's greater: _North by Northwest_ or the Sistine Chapel?
> 
> How do you compare them to Jaisalmer, the Palais Garnier, Whistler's Peacock Room, Angkor Wat, the bronze heads of Ifé, the statue of Mithras slaying the bull, or Breughel's _Fall of the Rebel Angels_?
> 
> It's like trying to compare a blue whale to a hummingbird to a nematode. Each is a great example of what it does; it's perfectly adapted to its niche. A blue whale, though, is a poor hummingbird.
> 
> Let's perform a simple experiment. Try tossing a blue whale into the air. (Ignore that hernia; you can do it - I believe in you!) Does it fly? No, it falls to earth with a heavy thud. As you crawl out from under its blubbery carcass, you realise that some things just aren't meant to fly. Nor, as Sir Arthur Streeb-Greebling's famous experiments showed, are some birds meant to fly underwater. And if you slice a hummingbird in two and expect each half to wriggle away, you'll be disappointed. Believe me, I've tried.
> 
> Cooking is an art. So we could ask: What tastes better, a rock cake or Borobodur? I find that Gothic cathedrals have a lovely crunchy texture, but that the Pyramids are too gravelly for my taste.
> 
> Here are 50 things that I think are great - _NOT_ things that I think are the 50 greatest.
> 
> *Music*
> 
> Beethoven's _Fidelio_
> Rossini
> Meyerbeer's four grands opéras
> Berlioz's _Benvenuto Cellini_ & _Les Troyens_
> Mendelssohn's _Midsummer Night's Dream_
> Moniuszko's _Straszny dwór_
> Mussorgsky's _Boris Godunov_
> The operas of Massenet
> Gilbert and Sullivan
> Richard Strauss
> The Beatles
> The musicals of Stephen Sondheim
> Glass's _Akhnaten_ and _Satyagraha_
> 
> *Theatre & Literature*
> Greek drama (Aeschylus, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristophanes)
> The plays of Shakespeare (What, even _Titus Andronicus_?)
> Lessing's _Nathan der Weise_
> Dumas's _Count of Monte Cristo_
> Hugo's _Notre-Dame de Paris_ and the Preface to _Cromwell_
> The works of Dickens
> The plays of Shaw
> Saki's short stories
> The detective story (especially Conan Doyle, G.K. Chesterton, Agatha Christie and John Dickson Carr)
> Gibbons's _Cold Comfort Farm_
> Hesse's _Glass Bead Game_
> Branch Cabell's _Jurgen_
> Peake's _Gormenghast_
> White's _Once and Future King_
> Michael Ende's _Neverending Story_
> Terry Pratchett's Discworld books
> Rushdie's _Enchantress of Florence_
> 
> *Cinema*
> The films of Hitchcock
> _Ivan Grozny_
> The James Bond films
> _The Lion in Winter_
> _The Producers_
> The Indiana Jones movies
> 
> *Radio and television*
> _The Goon Show_
> _Doctor Who_
> _The Avengers_
> _Monty Python's Flying Circus_
> _I, Claudius_
> David Attenborough's _Lives_
> _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
> _Blackadder_
> 
> *Comic strips*
> _Tintin_
> _Asterix_
> 
> *Computer games*
> _King's Quest_
> _Space Quest_
> _Quest for Glory_
> _The Last Express_


Addition to the following: _Very intriguing list and thank you for your point-of-view! Please adjust any of your selections that group several works together into single submissions (such as "Richard Strauss", "the works of..." "the films of...", "the operas of..." "Greek drama", etc)_

... please resubmit in the proper "Title - Artist (Year)" format (see OP if needed), otherwise the tallying can be quite arduous for me (much more arduous, when multiplied by all the submissions, than you would go through correcting just yours). You still have plenty of time to do this. It is quite likely I am going to get a whole other set of users from another website (or 2) to also contribute to this poll, plus will be announcing the deadline a couple weeks in advance. In other words, you don't need to do it right this second, but would much appreciate if you did before it's all said and done.


----------



## AfterHours

CMonteverdi said:


> And here is my humble attempt:
> 
> Dante Divina Commedia
> Michelangelo Sistine Chapel
> Monteverdi Vespres 1610
> Mozart Figaro
> Beethoven IX symphony
> Leopardi Canti
> J.S. Bach Cantatas
> Caravaggio St. Matthew frescos in San Luigi dei Francesi
> Van Gogh Starry night
> Dostoevsky Bratja Karamazov
> Bulgakov Master and Margarita
> Rublev Spas (Saviour)
> Masaccio tribute money
> Mozart Don Giovanni
> Pergolesi Stabat Mater
> Victoria Tenebrae responsories
> Brahms symphony 3
> Brahms symphony 4
> Star wars saga
> The godfather saga
> Tolkien LOTR
> Michelangelo Pieta'
> Venice basilica di San Marco
> Kandinsky yellow red blue
> Vivaldi 4 seasons
> Pearl Jam Ten
> John Coltrane a love supreme
> U2 Joshua tree
> Miles Davis kind of blue
> Bob Dylan bootleg series V
> Dunhill pipes
> Frank Miller Daredevil (comics)


Fascinating choices. Please resubmit in the "Title - Artist (Year)" format (see OP if needed).


----------



## AfterHours

Xaltotun said:


> Ok, this is totally ridiculous, but let it not be said I wouldn't be one to appreciate a good joke! So here goes! After five minutes, the list would be different by 50 to 75%!!! Meaning, I'm serious with my list, but the task itself is ridiculous... but fun!
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen!!!
> 2. Sistine chapel!!!
> 3. St. Peter's!!!
> 4. Plato's Republic!!!
> 5. The Laokoon Group!!!
> 6. Oresteia!!!
> 7. The Aeneid!!!
> 8. The Bible!!!
> 9. Missa Solemnis!!!
> 10. B minor mass!!!
> 11. Paradise Lost!!
> 12. Bruckner symphony 5!!
> 13. Ivan the Terrible!!
> 14. Iason!!
> 15. Intervention of the Sabine Women!!
> 16. Andrei Rublev!!
> 17. The Iliad!!
> 18. Battleship Potemkin!!
> 19. Sunrise!!
> 20. Amiens Cathedral!!
> 21. Theseus and the Minotaur!
> 22. Jerusalem Delivered!
> 23. Critique of Judgement!
> 24. Hagia Sophia!
> 25. Apollo Belvedere!
> 26. Het Steen!
> 27. La Grande Illusion!
> 28. Brothers Karamazov!
> 29. Pietá!
> 30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni!
> 31. Parthenon (bah, should be earlier…)
> 32. Transfiguration of Christ
> 33. Piano sonata in B minor
> 34. Diary of a Country Priest
> 35. Pensées
> 36. Requiem fragment
> 37. Moby Dick
> 38. Parsifal
> 39. Bruckner symphony 8
> 40. Die Zauberberg
> 41. Gargantua and Pantagruel
> 42. Il Gattopardo
> 43. Dürer self-portrait
> 44. The annunciation (Titian, late work)
> 45. Villa Savoye
> 46. Crucifixion (Tintoretto)
> 47. Faust
> 48. Die Schöpfung
> 49. The Fall of Phaeton
> 50. Gurrelieder
> 
> Artist names omitted for the most part, for extra ridiculousness!
> This was a very fun exercise!
> And the best part of this thread is that the list tells you about the person who wrote it. I'm always interested about the personalities of the TC people, and this one of the best ways to shed light to that.


I know it was all in the name of ridiculousness  , but before the deadline of the poll, please resubmit in the proper format as given in the OP ... RE: Title - Artist (Year)


----------



## AfterHours

topo morto said:


> My first 10 submissions:
> 
> Kenneth Wolstenholme's "They think it's all over" commentary
> Pyramids of Giza
> The Bible
> Maradona's handball goal in the World Cup
> The Qu'ran
> SS Uniforms
> The Chinese alphabet
> The Korean (hangul) alphabet
> The Arabic number system
> Flowered up - "Weekender"


Fyi, I didn't take your submission seriously when you posted. However, if you truly did mean it, please resubmit in the format shown on the OP. Also, as great a football/soccer player as Maradona was, I'm not including sports or sports moments in this poll. Same goes for Kenneth W's commentaries. I think including alphabets, number systems and clothing is (somewhat) a possibility but hard to take entirely seriously and I'm leaning towards "no". However, feel free to argue the point and I may change my mind.


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> Fyi, I didn't take your submission seriously when you posted. However, if you truly did mean it, please resubmit in the format shown on the OP. Also, as great a football/soccer player as Maradona was, I'm not including sports or sports moments in this poll. Same goes for Kenneth W's commentaries. I think including alphabets, number systems and clothing is (somewhat) a possibility but hard to take entirely seriously and I'm leaning towards "no". However, feel free to argue the point and I may change my mind.


I second the nomination of that handball goal:cheers::cheers:


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> I second the nomination of that handball goal:cheers::cheers:


:scold:

ut:

:tiphat:


----------



## Captainnumber36

1. Symphony No. 6 - Beethoven (1808) 
2. Starry Night - Van Gough (1889) 
3. Clair de Lune - Debussy (1905) 
4. The Nocturnes (all of them) - Chopin ( between 1827 and 1846)
5. A Midsummer Night's Dream - Shakespeare (1595/96)
6. The Taming of the Shrew - Shakespeare ( between 1590 and 1592)
7. Weeping Woman - Picasso (1937) 
8. The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand (1943)
9. Anthem - Ayn Rand (1937)
10. All Days are Nights: Songs for Lulu - Rufus Wainwright (2010)

I just took a stab at it, these are some of my favorites that sprang to mind quickly without much thought, same goes of the order. I just felt it all out; I wanted to participate in this to showcase what I enjoy in various arts more than anything else.


----------



## Phil loves classical

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. Symphony No. 6 - Beethoven (1808)
> 2. Starry Night - Van Gough (1889)
> 3. Clair de Lune - Debussy (1905)
> 4. The Nocturnes (all of them) - Chopin ( between 1827 and 1846)
> 5. A Midsummer Night's Dream - Shakespeare (1595/96)
> 6. The Taming of the Shrew - Shakespeare ( between 1590 and 1592)
> 7. Weeping Woman - Picasso (1937)
> 8. The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand (1943)
> 9. Anthem - Ayn Rand (1937)
> 10. All Days are Nights: Songs for Lulu - Rufus Wainwright (2010)
> 
> I just took a stab at it, these are some of my favorites that sprang to mind quickly without much thought, same goes of the order. I just felt it all out; I wanted to participate in this to showcase what I enjoy in various arts more than anything else.


You all forgot to include the movie Shane at #1 :lol:


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> You all forgot to include the movie Shane at #1 :lol:


Don't worry, it will surely win in the end. They just don't "get" it


----------



## AfterHours

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. Symphony No. 6 - Beethoven (1808)
> 2. Starry Night - Van Gough (1889)
> 3. Clair de Lune - Debussy (1905)
> 4. The Nocturnes (all of them) - Chopin ( between 1827 and 1846)
> 5. A Midsummer Night's Dream - Shakespeare (1595/96)
> 6. The Taming of the Shrew - Shakespeare ( between 1590 and 1592)
> 7. Weeping Woman - Picasso (1937)
> 8. The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand (1943)
> 9. Anthem - Ayn Rand (1937)
> 10. All Days are Nights: Songs for Lulu - Rufus Wainwright (2010)
> 
> I just took a stab at it, these are some of my favorites that sprang to mind quickly without much thought, same goes of the order. I just felt it all out; I wanted to participate in this to showcase what I enjoy in various arts more than anything else.


Thanks, very interesting selections. I love Chopin's Nocturnes but I'm not sure about including them as a single work unless you know that he intended them as a single unit even though released in such a widespread time period? It's not something I've looked into extensively so perhaps I'm just missing info on it... but as far as I know, it would be similar to including all of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas as a "single" work.


----------



## Captainnumber36

AfterHours said:


> Thanks, very interesting selections. I love Chopin's Nocturnes but I'm not sure about including them as a single work unless you know that he intended them as a single unit even though released in such a widespread time period? It's not something I've looked into extensively so perhaps I'm just missing info on it... but as far as I know, it would be similar to including all of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas as a "single" work.


You should let me have it, they are all so wonderful, and there are only around 23 of them. Please!?!?!


----------



## AfterHours

Captainnumber36 said:


> You should let me have it, they are all so wonderful, and there are only around 23 of them. Please!?!?!


It's tempting to do so, even for my own list with "Beethoven's Symphonies/Piano Sonatas" or what-have-you. But sorry, it just opens the door to too many arbitrary decisions about a single "work" of art. All of Bach's Organ Works shall now be one selection, all of Mozart's Piano Concertos, Beethoven's Piano Sonatas, and so on.

You could of course, decide to submit a 32 selection list with all of them on it in whatever order you please -- if that's how you want to vote.


----------



## Captainnumber36

I'll just pick arbitrarily since I love them all equally. Nocturne No. 1, Op. 9.


----------



## AfterHours

Captainnumber36 said:


> I'll just pick arbitrarily since I love them all equally. Nocturne No. 1, Op. 9.


Thanks, good selection! :tiphat:


----------



## Sonata

Would Wagner's Ring be considered one entry or four entries?


----------



## AfterHours

Sonata said:


> Would Wagner's Ring be considered one entry or four entries?


Good question, The Ring is one entry.


----------



## hpowders

AfterHours said:


> My submission:
> 
> 1.	Sistine Chapel (Ceiling & The Last Judgement) - Michelangelo Buonarroti (1512; 1541)
> 2.	Symphony No. 9 in D Minor "Choral" - Ludwig van Beethoven (1824)
> 3.	Symphony No. 9 in D Major - Gustav Mahler (1910)
> 4.	Mass in B Minor - Johann Sebastian Bach (1749)
> 5.	Peasants' War Panorama - Werner Tubke (1987) [aka, "Early Bourgeois Revolution in Germany"]
> 6.	Requiem - Guisseppe Verdi (1874)
> 7.	Symphony No. 9 in C Major "The Great" - Franz Schubert (1826)
> 8.	Tristan und Isolde - Richard Wagner (1859)
> 9.	Symphony No. 15 in A Major - Dmitri Shostakovich (1971)
> 10.	The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady - Charles Mingus (1963)
> 11.	Trout Mask Replica - Captain Beefheart & His Magic Band (1969)
> 12.	Rock Bottom - Robert Wyatt (1974)
> 13.	String Quartet No. 15 in A Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1825)
> 14.	Citizen Kane - Orson Welles (1941)
> 15.	A Love Supreme - John Coltrane (1964)
> 16.	Faust - Faust (1971)
> 17.	The Velvet Underground & Nico - The Velvet Underground (1967)
> 18.	String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826)
> 19.	Astral Weeks - Van Morrison (1968)
> 20.	Parable of Arable Land - Red Crayola (1967)
> 21.	Symphony No. 5 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1808)
> 22.	Symphony No. 4 in E Minor - Johannes Brahms (1884)
> 23.	The Doors - The Doors (1967)
> 24.	Unit Structures - Cecil Taylor (1966)
> 25.	Fidelio - Ludwig van Beethoven (1805-1814)
> 26.	Don Giovanni - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1787)
> 27.	Der Ring des Nibelungen - Richard Wagner (1876)
> 28.	Metropolis - Fritz Lang (1927) ["The Complete Metropolis", 147 minutes]
> 29.	Lorca - Tim Buckley (1970)
> 30.	Ascension - John Coltrane (1965)
> 31.	The Garden of Earthly Delights - Hieronymus Bosch (circa 1500)
> 32.	Escalator Over The Hill - Carla Bley (1971)
> 33.	Twin Infinitives - Royal Trux (1990)
> 34.	String Quintet in C Major - Franz Schubert (1828)
> 35.	Glagolitic Mass - Leos Janacek (1926)
> 36.	Messiah - Georg Handel (1741)
> 37.	St. Matthew Passion - Johann Sebastian Bach (1727)
> 38.	Missa Solemnis - Ludwig van Beethoven (1823)
> 39.	Symphony No. 9 in E Minor "From the New World" - Antonin Dvorak (1893)
> 40.	Desertshore - Nico (1970)
> 41.	Irrlicht - Klaus Schulze (1972)
> 42.	The Jazz Composer's Orchestra - Michael Mantler (1968)
> 43.	Variations in Dream-time - Anthony Davis (1982)
> 44.	Piano Sonata No. 32 in C Minor - Ludwig van Beethoven (1822)
> 45.	Symphonie Fantastique - Hector Berlioz (1830)
> 46.	Symphony No. 41 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1788)
> 47.	Piano Concerto No. 21 in C Major - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1785)
> 48.	Violin Concerto in D Major - Johannes Brahms (1878)
> 49.	Ein Deutsches Requiem - Johannes Brahms (1868)
> 50.	Symphony No. 5 - Gustav Mahler (1902)
> 
> NOTE: I limited my selections to Classical, Rock, Jazz, Film and Paintings because I have not extensively assimilated great literature/poetry or other forms enough to make confident selections. For instance, it is probable various works by Shakespeare, Dante, T.S. Eliot, Kafka, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, etc, deserve strong consideration, but perhaps another time, another list, another poll.


A fine list. I agree with your choices: 1, 13, 21, 26, 27, 38, 44 and 48.

I would add the Beethoven Violin Concerto, Mozart's Marriage of Figaro, Wagner's Parsifal, Michelangelo's sculpture, David, in Florence, Italy and also A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens.


----------



## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> A fine list. I agree with your choices: 1, 13, 21, 26, 27, 38, 44 and 48.
> 
> I would add the Beethoven Violin Concerto, Michelangelo's David in Florence, Italy and also A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens.


Thank you, I haven't made the time (yet?) to get into literature extensively enough to assimilate and evaluate it like I have for Classical, Rock, Jazz, Paintings and Film, but maybe one day I will, and I wouldn't be surprised if Dickens ascended such a list. Beethoven's Violin Concerto is among my favorites of its genre, but I do think Brahms surpassed it (mainly I feel Brahms' melodies and solo sections, despite having Beethoven as a formal inspiration, are even more brilliant/creative/emotionally resonant -- not that Beethoven's is lacking in these areas by any means -- but, for a Top 50 Works of Art list (which I considered hundreds of top candidates), my standards had to be very strict. Only the very very best survive, so to speak.

Re: David ... I have put together a "rough draft" of greatest sculpture/architecture (that still needs work and further evaluation). As great as a sculpture artist as Michelangelo was, it is difficult for me to include such works on a list where the highest standard is his own Sistine Chapel, which so vastly surpassed his sculptures, even considering how amazing they were (and any other sculpture artist too). And which, via visual art, essentially combined Painting, Sculpture (painted) and Architecture (painted) into an unparalleled confluence of creativity, emotion, concept and composition that will probably never be surpassed.


----------



## hpowders

AfterHours said:


> Thank you, I haven't made the time (yet?) to get into literature extensively enough to assimilate and evaluate it like I have for Classical, Rock, Jazz, Paintings and Film, but maybe one day I will, and I wouldn't be surprised if Dickens ascended such a list. Beethoven's Violin Concerto is among my favorites of its genre, but I do think Brahms surpassed it (mainly I feel Brahms' melodies and solo sections, despite having Beethoven as a formal inspiration, are even more brilliant/creative/emotionally resonant -- not that Beethoven's is lacking in these areas by any means -- but, for a Top 50 Works of Art list (which I considered hundreds of top candidates), my standards had to be very strict. Only the very very best survive, so to speak.
> 
> Re: David ... I have put together a "rough draft" of greatest sculpture/architecture (that still needs work and further evaluation). As great as a sculpture artist as Michelangelo was, it is difficult for me to include such works on a list where the highest standard is his own Sistine Chapel, which so vastly surpassed his sculptures, even considering how amazing they were (and any other sculpture artist too). And which, via visual art, essentially combined Painting, Sculpture (painted) and Architecture (painted) into an unparalleled confluence of creativity, emotion, concept and composition that will probably never be surpassed.


I was fortunate to visit the Sistine Chapel (twice) in Rome and the David sculpture in Florence. Awesome stuff!


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## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> I was fortunate to visit the Sistine Chapel (twice) in Rome and the David sculpture in Florence. Awesome stuff!


Wow! :cheers:

The next best thing: http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

And without the hordes of cell phone photographers!


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## hpowders

AfterHours said:


> Wow! :cheers:
> 
> The next best thing: http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html
> 
> And without the hordes of cell phone photographers!


Wow! I coulda saved all that money. Who knew???


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## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> Wow! I coulda saved all that money. Who knew???


Yeah man, what were you thinking!?!? :lol:


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## senza sordino

One thing I notice about entries here is that it is music heavy. If you were to ask this same question on a visual arts forum or a literature forum the results would be different. This is an obvious observation, I think. 

On my list, now several pages back, I wanted to add a couple of films, but they just didn't make it. Wizard of Oz, Casablanca, Citizen Cane, Star Wars. I also wanted to add something comedic because I think good comedy can very artful. All of the works people have listed are "serious". Comedy exposes the ridiculous. Life of Brian, Some like it hot

100 years or more ago, one might have been able to add the Olympics, what we can achieve through friendly competition. But now, the Olympics have changed into this obscene spectacle of money and corruption. 

Also my list is western civilization biased, sorry. Not much I can do about that. 

Quite a number of people have submitted lists, and there are some commonalities. Is there any chance you can compile the list and see what we agree on? What pieces of art have floated to the top? The cream of the crop?


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## AfterHours

senza sordino said:


> One thing I notice about entries here is that it is music heavy. If you were to ask this same question on a visual arts forum or a literature forum the results would be different. This is an obvious observation, I think.
> 
> On my list, now several pages back, I wanted to add a couple of films, but they just didn't make it. Wizard of Oz, Casablanca, Citizen Cane, Star Wars. I also wanted to add something comedic because I think good comedy can very artful. All of the works people have listed are "serious". Comedy exposes the ridiculous. Life of Brian, Some like it hot
> 
> 100 years or more ago, one might have been able to add the Olympics, what we can achieve through friendly competition. But now, the Olympics have changed into this obscene spectacle of money and corruption.
> 
> Also my list is western civilization biased, sorry. Not much I can do about that.
> 
> Quite a number of people have submitted lists, and there are some commonalities. Is there any chance you can compile the list and see what we agree on? What pieces of art have floated to the top? The cream of the crop?


Yes, good observations. As alluded to in the OP, it was expected that it might lean more towards Classical music. I've already started branching out towards including other sites to include into the overall results. Just today I began including besteveralbums.com and they've started submitting lists. These may lean a bit more towards the Rock side of things, though they have a decent film and jazz community too, as well as a handful of Classical and Visual Arts enthusiasts. I am considering the idea of going around to some other websites, such as RYM, maybe a Visual Arts site, maybe a Jazz-centric site, maybe a film site such as letterboxd, etc -- though I am not sure about qualifying and tackling such an overwhelming plethora of entries. I might stagger them so that I don't have so much to deal with all at once. I'll decide as we go. In the end I may even just limit it to talkclassical.com and BEA... but I am also intrigued at the idea of covering so many points-of-view...

Re: Comedy and flim ... Despite being a film buff, still only 2 managed to make my 50 (several others came close). I think some art forms just out-produced others in terms of the greatest historical masterpieces. Life of Brian and Some Like it Hot are excellent ideas for comedic film. Holy Grail might be the funniest film of all time imo, though both of those would be in the conversation (not to mention Airplane!, A Fish Called Wanda, To Be or Not To Be ... there's always the endearing Chaplin and Keaton too, and the Marx Brothers ... and for unrelenting satires I would have to include Tati's Playtime, Godard's WeekEnd, Gilliam's Brazil, Kusturica's Underground and Von Trier's Kingdom -- each of which are quite funny but also many other things). By "funniest" I also mean that it is creative enough that it stays funny/amusing no matter how many times you've seen it, as opposed to a film that might be very funny the first time you see it, but quickly loses its charm because all/most of its jokes depend so much on the element of surprise.

Re: Olympics ... Entirely plausible

Re: Western Civilization based ... You're not the only one, that's for sure 

Re: Posting the results ... I might post a running tally of some sort at some point, but I've refrained from that due to a number of people still needing to correct their submissions and I simply haven't tallied the entries and points as of yet. Too early right now. Lots of submissions to come, hopefully from talkclassical alone, but also from the other site(s) joining the mix.

As a note, I will probably personally submit any of the other sites' submissions here on talkclassical too, so that I have them all in one place.


----------



## Blancrocher

AfterHours said:


> Re: Comedy and flim ... Despite being a film buff, still only 2 managed to make my 50 (several others came close). I think some art forms just out-produced others in terms of the greatest historical masterpieces. Life of Brian and Some Like it Hot are excellent ideas for comedic film. Holy Grail might be the funniest film of all time imo, though both of those would be in the conversation (not to mention Airplane!, A Fish Called Wanda, To Be or Not To Be ... there's always the endearing Chaplin and Keaton too, and the Marx Brothers ... and for unrelenting satires I would have to include Tati's Playtime, Godard's WeekEnd, Gilliam's Brazil, Kusturica's Underground and Von Trier's Kingdom -- each of which are quite funny but also many other things).


Great list of films there (and I haven't seen the Kusturica, which I should get to--thanks for the mention). Interesting that you see Playtime, which is pretty much my favorite film, as an unrelenting satire--I see it as bemused but affectionate about every human, and most of the technology/architecture, on the screen. Mind you, as far as I can tell even Tati himself didn't agree with me.


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## AfterHours

Blancrocher said:


> Great list of films there (and I haven't seen the Kusturica, which I should get to--thanks for the mention). Interesting that you see Playtime, which is pretty much my favorite film, as an unrelenting satire--I see it as bemused but affectionate about every human, and most of the technology/architecture, on the screen. Mind you, as far as I can tell even Tati himself didn't agree with me.


I do agree that it has compassion and bemusement, more in line with a Chaplin film, that tempers how scathing the satirical aspect of the film is. Playtime is many things, including what you've said about it.


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> Yes, good observations. As alluded to in the OP, it was expected that it might lean more towards Classical music. I've already started branching out towards including other sites to include into the overall results. Just today I began including besteveralbums.com and they've started submitting lists. These may lean a bit more towards the Rock side of things, though they have a decent film and jazz community too, as well as a handful of Classical and Visual Arts enthusiasts. I am considering the idea of going around to some other websites, such as RYM, maybe a Visual Arts site, maybe a Jazz-centric site, maybe a film site such as letterboxd, etc -- though I am not sure about qualifying and tackling such an overwhelming plethora of entries. I might stagger them so that I don't have so much to deal with all at once. I'll decide as we go. In the end I may even just limit it to talkclassical.com and BEA... but I am also intrigued at the idea of covering so many points-of-view...
> 
> Re: Comedy and flim ... Despite being a film buff, still only 2 managed to make my 50 (several others came close). I think some art forms just out-produced others in terms of the greatest historical masterpieces. Life of Brian and Some Like it Hot are excellent ideas for comedic film. Holy Grail might be the funniest film of all time imo, though both of those would be in the conversation (not to mention Airplane!, A Fish Called Wanda, To Be or Not To Be ... there's always the endearing Chaplin and Keaton too, and the Marx Brothers ... and for unrelenting satires I would have to include Tati's Playtime, Godard's WeekEnd, Gilliam's Brazil, Kusturica's Underground and Von Trier's Kingdom -- each of which are quite funny but also many other things). By "funniest" I also mean that it is creative enough that it stays funny/amusing no matter how many times you've seen it, as opposed to a film that might be very funny the first time you see it, but quickly loses its charm because all/most of its jokes depend so much on the element of surprise.
> 
> Re: Olympics ... Entirely plausible
> 
> Re: Western Civilization based ... You're not the only one, that's for sure
> 
> Re: Posting the results ... I might post a running tally of some sort at some point, but I've refrained from that due to a number of people still needing to correct their submissions and I simply haven't tallied the entries and points as of yet. Too early right now. Lots of submissions to come, hopefully from talkclassical alone, but also from the other site(s) joining the mix.
> 
> As a note, I will probably personally submit any of the other sites' submissions here on talkclassical too, so that I have them all in one place.


Hey Afterhours, one thing that i find weird is how your rock selections order mirror Piero Scruffi's one for one? Also his view on the Beatles being overrated and Newsom, etc.? Aren't you overvaluing his bias? I agree there is more to Royal Trux than at face value, but how Is their music even comparable to a Haydn's best, or Bartok, and others?

Sorry don't mean to be rude, just curious...


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Hey Afterhours, one thing that i find weird is how your rock selections order mirror Piero Scruffi's one for one? Also his view on the Beatles being overrated and Newsom, etc.? Aren't you overvaluing his bias? I agree there is more to Royal Trux than at face value, but how Is their music even comparable to a Haydn's best, or Bartok, and others?


Well, many of the Rock selections are very close but don't all actually mirror his. If you're not that familiar with his lists and gave them a glance you might not notice the differences... Anyway, yes they are very close. Scaruffi's choices follow a uniform, even "mathematical" logic that apparently aligns very closely with my own criteria. I address this on my criteria page, not just my own criteria but the alignment with Scaruffi's selections. Here: https://www.besteveralbums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15503

Regarding Twin Infinitives vs Haydn, the comparison makes no sense musically as they could hardly be more different. First read my criteria page so you have an understanding of what I look for (in which context rating TI so highly should make sense). Maybe I'll say more about it later tonight...

Should also point to why I might not rate The Beatles so highly as well as why I do rate Newsom highly (including what else I've already said about her merits in other posts).


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## dzc4627

Don't you know that everything is subjective? Why even have a poll like this. Nothing exists, really. Quite pointless.


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## Pugg

dzc4627 said:


> Don't you know that everything is subjective? Why even have a poll like this. Nothing exists, really. Quite pointless.


Goes for post of the day.:tiphat:


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## AfterHours

dzc4627 said:


> Don't you know that everything is subjective? Why even have a poll like this. Nothing exists, really. Quite pointless.


More pointless than your post even? :tiphat:


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## AfterHours

Pugg said:


> Goes for post of the day.:tiphat:


Low standards today, Pugg?


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## Pugg

AfterHours said:


> Low standards today, Pugg?


No lightning up a thread where no-one can win.


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## AfterHours

Pugg said:


> No lightning up a thread where no-one can win.


Once the final tally rolls in, I think we all win, actually


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## Pugg

AfterHours said:


> Once the final tally rolls in, I think we all win, actually


I'll give you that one, :cheers:


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## Sonata

Pugg said:


> No lightning up a thread where no-one can win.


I don't think the goal is about "winning" 
I think it's been a very interesting exercise. I often don't give sculpture, architecture, etc much of a thought. And it's certainly been illuminating seeing where I might value some literature in comparison with the music I listen to on a regular basis. It's also opened up some fun discussion with my husband


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## mathisdermaler

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. Symphony No. 6 - Beethoven (1808)
> 2. Starry Night - Van Gough (1889)
> 3. Clair de Lune - Debussy (1905)
> 4. The Nocturnes (all of them) - Chopin ( between 1827 and 1846)
> 5. A Midsummer Night's Dream - Shakespeare (1595/96)
> 6. The Taming of the Shrew - Shakespeare ( between 1590 and 1592)
> 7. Weeping Woman - Picasso (1937)
> 8. The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand (1943)
> 9. Anthem - Ayn Rand (1937)
> 10. All Days are Nights: Songs for Lulu - Rufus Wainwright (2010)
> 
> I just took a stab at it, these are some of my favorites that sprang to mind quickly without much thought, same goes of the order. I just felt it all out; I wanted to participate in this to showcase what I enjoy in various arts more than anything else.


 The 6th is wonderful. I considered including MSND as well. I'm curious, why did you include two Rand novels? Picasso I agree with, but went with Guernica.


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## Pat Fairlea

A few more to think about:

Rembrandt 1659 self portrait with beret.
St Denis cathedral, Paris (i.e. NOT Notre Dame, which is a monstrosity)
Beethoven's 7th symphony (come on, you know that's true)
Shakespeare Richard III (but NOT the Olivier film version!)
Film - A Matter of Life & Death.


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## Magnum Miserium

Captainnumber36 said:


> 6. The Taming of the Shrew - Shakespeare ( between 1590 and 1592)
> [...]
> 8. The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand (1943)


This is perfect in so many ways.

Anyway, the correct answer, at least for Europe (including USA), is Sistine Chapel, Hamlet, 9th symphony. Next.


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## Magnum Miserium

Or Mona Lisa, Iliad, Art of Fugue. You know


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## Magnum Miserium

By the way I can't read the Iliad


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## dzc4627

I am not confident in my art consumption to really give a definitive list, but I know Hamlet, quite a few Mahler and Bruckner symphonies, Beethoven 9, lots of Bach, the Sistine Chapel, Mozart 41, and some other stuff would make it on there.


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## AfterHours

Magnum Miserium said:


> This is perfect in so many ways.
> 
> Anyway, the correct answer, at least for Europe (including USA), is Sistine Chapel, Hamlet, 9th symphony. Next.


Hard to argue with those 3 pinnacles of art. I do find your "Next." amusing :tiphat:


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## AfterHours

Sonata said:


> I don't think the goal is about "winning"
> I think it's been a very interesting exercise. I often don't give sculpture, architecture, etc much of a thought. And it's certainly been illuminating seeing where I might value some literature in comparison with the music I listen to on a regular basis. It's also opened up some fun discussion with my husband


Yes, purpose achieved! :trp::guitar::clap:


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## AfterHours

mathisdermaler said:


> The 6th is wonderful. I considered including MSND as well. I'm curious, why did you include two Rand novels? Picasso I agree with, but went with Guernica.


Yes, I would agree that Guernica is Picasso's greatest work, but I can also see why someone would choose Weeping Woman.


----------



## AfterHours

Blancrocher said:


> Great list of films there (and I haven't seen the Kusturica, which I should get to--thanks for the mention). Interesting that you see Playtime, which is pretty much my favorite film, as an unrelenting satire--I see it as bemused but affectionate about every human, and most of the technology/architecture, on the screen. Mind you, as far as I can tell even Tati himself didn't agree with me.


Kusturica's Underground is among the greatest of all films and should be seen immediately by any serious film lover. Its stature will surely only grow in the coming decades.


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## AfterHours

Pat Fairlea said:


> A few more to think about:
> 
> Rembrandt 1659 self portrait with beret.
> St Denis cathedral, Paris (i.e. NOT Notre Dame, which is a monstrosity)
> Beethoven's 7th symphony (come on, you know that's true)
> Shakespeare Richard III (but NOT the Olivier film version!)
> Film - A Matter of Life & Death.


Thank you, all interesting possibilities for anyone considering submitting a list.


----------



## AfterHours

dzc4627 said:


> I am not confident in my art consumption to really give a definitive list, but I know Hamlet, quite a few Mahler and Bruckner symphonies, Beethoven 9, lots of Bach, the Sistine Chapel, Mozart 41, and some other stuff would make it on there.


To me, that sounds about as "definitive" as one could reasonably hope for, if you should choose to bite the bullet and make an official submission.


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## dzc4627

AfterHours said:


> To me, that sounds about as "definitive" as one could reasonably hope for, if you should choose to bite the bullet and make an official submission.


Making a post among hundreds of others' on a decently trafficked classical music forum. Not exactly what I might be biting the bullet over 

Jokes aside, I was just trying to reinforce the sarcasm of my initial post in this thread by giving a genuine one.


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## AfterHours

dzc4627 said:


> Making a post among hundreds of others' on a decently trafficked classical music forum. Not exactly what I might be biting the bullet over
> 
> Jokes aside, I was just trying to reinforce the sarcasm of my initial post in this thread by giving a genuine one.


No worries either way :tiphat: Good for striking such a balance, one of the secrets to great art perhaps? :cheers:


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> I agree there is more to Royal Trux than at face value, but how Is their music even comparable to a Haydn's best, or Bartok, and others?


Did you read my criteria page?

If that is understood (I can try and clarify if you have any questions) ... and we take into account the fundamental method in which I determine the ratings/rankings, as follows (from the same page):

_A reliable formula for my ratings and rankings is as follows:

ACCUMULATION OF THE DEGREE AND CONSISTENCY OF ITS EMOTIONAL CONTENT, CONCEPTUAL SIGNIFICANCE, AND ITS INGENUITY, WITHIN THE TIME FRAME OR SPACE OF THE WORK OF ART.

With "time frame", I am referring to art such as cinema and music that are produced and assimilated within finite running times. With "space", I am referring to visual arts such as paintings that are produced and assimilated within finite spatial parameters._

Twin Infinitives, is not just a massive and grotesque and harrowing work, but every second (virtually) is a creative upending of Rock history, throwing its dogmas into utter turmoil (intentionally, not randomly) -- while still maintaining its bare fundamentals (not too far from The Rolling Stones actually) underneath all the oblivion and chaos. As a visual analogy, the album could be seen as akin to an emotional and structural equivalent of a monumental version of Picasso's Guernica inside the landscape of Ernst's Europe After the Rain II, moving against a torrential internal and external apocalypse of psychological and physical debris, spanning the size of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. Taken from that perspective, it might sound more overwhelming and impressive than it has seemed so far to you (or maybe not), though I do realize such a sensation may only be gathered from it after several listens and requisite familiarity with Rock history (including the more experimental side), which you may or may not already have (Free/Avant-garde Jazz helps quite a bit too). It's not that dissimilar in result (not necessarily the means) to works such as Bartok's or Elliott Carter's or Stravinsky's and other 20th century composer's. But it does take its art to a greater scale, more staggering variety, extent and emotional/physical breaking point than pretty much any of them this side of Captain Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica.


----------



## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> Did you read my criteria page?
> 
> If that is understood (I can try and clarify if you have any questions) ... and we take into account the fundamental method in which I determine the ratings/rankings, as follows (from the same page):
> 
> _A reliable formula for my ratings and rankings is as follows:
> 
> ACCUMULATION OF THE DEGREE AND CONSISTENCY OF ITS EMOTIONAL CONTENT, CONCEPTUAL SIGNIFICANCE, AND ITS INGENUITY, WITHIN THE TIME FRAME OR SPACE OF THE WORK OF ART.
> 
> With "time frame", I am referring to art such as cinema and music that are produced and assimilated within finite running times. With "space", I am referring to visual arts such as paintings that are produced and assimilated within finite spatial parameters._
> 
> Twin Infinitives, is not just a massive and grotesque and harrowing work, but every second (virtually) is a creative upending of Rock history, throwing its dogmas into utter turmoil (intentionally, not randomly) -- while still maintaining its bare fundamentals (not too far from The Rolling Stones actually) underneath all the oblivion and chaos. As a visual analogy, the album could be seen as akin to an emotional and structural equivalent of a monumental version of Picasso's Guernica inside the landscape of Ernst's Europe After the Rain II, moving against a torrential internal and external apocalypse of psychological and physical debris, spanning the size of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling. Taken from that perspective, it might sound more overwhelming and impressive than it has seemed so far to you (or maybe not), though I do realize such a sensation may only be gathered from it after several listens and requisite familiarity with Rock history (including the more experimental side), which you may or may not already have (Free/Avant-garde Jazz helps quite a bit too). It's not that dissimilar in result (not necessarily the means) to works such as Bartok's or Elliott Carter's or Stravinsky's and other 20th century composer's. But it does take its art to a greater scale, more staggering variety, extent and emotional/physical breaking point than pretty much any of them this side of Captain Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica.


Yes, I did read that criteria. Emotional content is very subjective, I think most people will find less emotional content in Royal Trux than Adele. In terms of Ingenuity, Haydn was one of the most ingenious in history. How does Royal Trux take its art to a greater scale than Stravinsky and Bartok, and how is there more variety?


----------



## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Yes, I did read that criteria. Emotional content is very subjective, I think most people will find less emotional content in Royal Trux than Adele. In terms of Ingenuity, Haydn was one of the most ingenious in history. How does Royal Trux take its art to a greater scale than Stravinsky and Bartok, and how is there more variety?


Re: Emotional content is very subjective & Adele ... Yes, it's also very much a matter of knowledge and experience. I think most people that would consider Adele a great artist (on the level of what I've placed on my list) would not even comprehend what Twin Infinitives was doing in the first place, in order to even have a response to it, let alone experience it on any sort of emotional level. Those who had assimilated 20th Century Classical music, experimental Rock and experimental Jazz, would probably assimilate Twin Infinitives without much trouble. Visual art, of the sort which I mention (Dada, Expressionist, Surrealist), would undoubtedly help too.

Re: Haydn being ingenious ... Yes, he was. Obviously in a very different way than Twin Infinitives.

Re: How does Twin Infinitives...? Listen to it and pick out all the differing genres/formats and emotional nuances its vocals and instruments are traversing and creatively changing and spinning into chaos. There is almost no moment that is not new and alien to the history of rock, that is not twisting old forms into new ones. Sorry, but right now I don't have the time to go through the album and note everything down right now, and then make direct, detailed comparisons to the works of Stravinsky or Bartok. Do you know of a work by those artists that surpassed Twin Infinitives in terms of scale? Ambition? Variety of musical forms/genres?

Scaruffi does a good job of getting to the heart of the matter and some analysis of various songs:

Instead the duo produced a double album, titled Twin Infinitives (Drag City, 1990), with ambitious intentions: pushing the art of rock composition to the limits in a way that it could be rock and roll but without people recognizing that it was. Contrary to those who thought this came about from a colossal improv during a drug orgy, the album represented an analytical reflection on the perception of the details and the linguistic system which transcend the literal and create an abstraction, but an abstraction anchored to the literal. There was also an anarchical and libertarian message, of revolting against institutions, of hating classes. It was composed and recorded under the influence of the monument of rock culture that was Trout Mask Replica by Captain Beefheart. It was also intended to be a tribute to the 2 great double albums of the golden era of rock, Exile On Main Street by the Rolling Stones and Uncle Meat by Frank Zappa. Additionally, it was also one of the albums that invented the lo-fi aesthetic, which exalted the underground, independent American musical craft: a semi-amateurish musical style that had a "home-made" sort of feel; a hobby of the highest quality and attention to detail. It became one of the most important albums in rock music, the "Trout Mask Replica" of noise-rock, an impenetrable jungle of dirty sounds and childish rhythms, smothered by electronics; a cubist masterpiece of deconstruction and reconstruction of musical forms. Not only Beefheart (who inspired more spirit than form), but also Faust - German geniuses of chaos, Pere Ubu - from which they borrowed the art of assimilating electronics within the harmonic structure of rock, and Chrome - from which they borrowed the brutal method of transforming the conjoining of sounds by torture. Every track was immersed in a blazing stream of noise (instrumental and electronic) that was totally illogical: just casual and random noises. The few phases of music that were composed, or planned, were put under every sort of butchering: tapes were cut and recomposed above all, some fragments were left behind, some others duplicated, and still others accelerated or decelerated. The duo showed no mercy. In Chances Are The Comets In Our Future, one of their most programmatic, resounding, and hallucinating feedback filled tracks which accompanied the vocal rhyme in a manner that joined the two, the phrases by the two voices were gradually torn from the tape and randomly replaced, crumbling even the shred of logic that remained. Analogically in Solid Gold Tooth, a deranged blues in which the vocal harmonies (the call of the muezzin by him and the moaning by her, with a newscast in the background) seemed to originate from tapes that were played just for their own sake. It was the rigorous method of insanity. From that prospective, Royal Trux either created a regressed variation of industrial music or very advanced psychedelia. In Jet Pet, the singing of Herrema was shattered by a colossal distortion, but on a background of warbles and electronic thuds. For its part, RTX-USA was like a ritual dancing from a metallic jungle, which indulged in the most wild chaos; from formless matter emerged a mysterious flute and one of the most graceless guitar solos in the history of music. Industrial and metallic rhythms fill Glitterbust. These were ballads by wasted artists, in which not even a shred of a song remained and all the other sounds were horribly deformed until it lost their trademark, their melody line, their rhythm; until it became only hisses, hums, and rumbles like that of a monstrous nightmare (Kool Down Wheels). Sun Ra comes to mind in the prolonged dissonance of Osiris, that served as cosmic admonitions, while unidentified bodies hissed; Herrema recited something, but the substance was that of noises, without melody or theme, only unpleasant noises; one of their most evocative cacophonic displays. The tour de force of this spastic jamming was the suite Ape Oven, which was infernal, like a horror film, with a menacing riff (perhaps the most musical thing on the album) superimposed on an uninterrupted sequence of free dissonance and all covered with hard-hitting percussion in a weak manner. But where it coagulated into a recognizable form, even if through a thick fog, there were musical events that would go down in history. A semblance of blues emerged in the pace of the guitar in Yin Jim Versus The Vomit Creature, while Hagerty mumbled unintelligible words under the thick blanket of distortions, feedback, and assorted noises; quickly the noises take to the wind but he continues to yap and laugh in the whirlwind of noxious radiation. Before that there was a piece of music that was magnificent, an extravagant example of recitation. Herrema was more spatial and her drunken rants (her whining similar to Lydia Lunch was tired and bored) were perfect for songs like Ice Cream, or for arrangements that consisted of a whistle and a chord (an off-key solo) by the guitar that strummed the melody, with a chord (also off-key) on the other guitar that played the counter point, and also maracas and the usual tumultuous electronic sounds that grow in the background; or like Ratcreeps, a duel between a slightly off-key chord and an electronic rumble; or like Lick My Boots, on which Herrema pretends to commit herself to the song and duels with a pair of methodical dissonances. Her litanies were set in an apocalyptic scenario, post-nuclear, a scenario of destruction and decay, of ruin and devastation: the survivors enter into unison with the wreckage. The Dadaism instituted by the instrumentals has its own value. The dissonant apex of the work, that would be the envy of Varese and Cage, was the track Florida Avenue Theme, as unmusical as a song could be. But perhaps the most ingenious piece in this area was Funky Son, with irritating scordaturas on the guitar, broken dishes, sol-fas on trombone and strumming on the piano at a danceable pace: if school-children broke into a recording studio and played the instruments, they could not produce anything less harmonious. Shamelessly, this ends gloriously: with a love-song on piano sung by Herrema (and naturally neither the vocalist nor the piano carried the tune). In this monumental work, Royal Trux deconstructed blues-rock by dissecting and separating rhythmic patterns, marks, melodies, and recording songs under the influence of massive amounts of hysteria, not so much theatrics. All in all, Twin Infinitives was a collection of precious musical rubbish. Super psychedelic keyboards and the vocal harmonies by the duo were not half bad (for a mess).


----------



## Bettina

Captainnumber36 said:


> 1. Symphony No. 6 - Beethoven (1808)
> 2. Starry Night - Van Gough (1889)
> 3. Clair de Lune - Debussy (1905)
> 4. The Nocturnes (all of them) - Chopin ( between 1827 and 1846)
> 5. A Midsummer Night's Dream - Shakespeare (1595/96)
> 6. The Taming of the Shrew - Shakespeare ( between 1590 and 1592)
> 7. Weeping Woman - Picasso (1937)
> 8. The Fountainhead - Ayn Rand (1943)
> 9. Anthem - Ayn Rand (1937)
> 10. All Days are Nights: Songs for Lulu - Rufus Wainwright (2010)
> 
> I just took a stab at it, these are some of my favorites that sprang to mind quickly without much thought, same goes of the order. I just felt it all out; I wanted to participate in this to showcase what I enjoy in various arts more than anything else.


Great list, and it's gotten me thinking about something I've noticed: many of us have artists on our lists who would have disliked each other. You have both Beethoven and Ayn Rand - she hated his music and believed that it expressed a malevolent worldview. Also, my own list has some artists who were enemies, particularly Wagner and Brahms. I think it's fascinating how we are able to appreciate a wide range of artists, some of whom did not enjoy each others' works at all! Perhaps we are more open-minded than the artists on our lists.


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## Woodduck

Bettina said:


> Great list, and it's gotten me thinking about something I've noticed: many of us have artists on our lists who would have disliked each other. You have both Beethoven and Ayn Rand - she hated his music and believed that it expressed a malevolent worldview. Also, my own list has some artists who were enemies, particularly Wagner and Brahms. I think it's fascinating how we are able to appreciate a wide range of artists, some of whom did not enjoy each others' works at all! Perhaps we are more open-minded than the artists on our lists.


It's easier to accept artists with opposing visions when no one any longer has a stake in which vision is better, and when we aren't artists trying to preserve and nurture our visions and persuade the world that what we have to say is worth its time.


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## AfterHours

I've updated the "rules" for the poll as follows, in order to be a bit more specific about the various art forms allowed (and so we end up having a poll with worthwhile results.) I do not believe this will affect any previous official submissions, but I will look back through them just in case.

*As to be an effective poll at all, there still needs to be some parameters, the following forms of Art may be included, and no others:

Classical Music Works 
Rock Albums 
Jazz Albums
Songs (that were not part of a non-compilation album) 
Films 
TV Shows 
Theater 
Paintings (or drawings too) 
Other Visual Art Works, including Installations 
Sculpture 
Architecture 
Literature (including any fiction or non-fiction, including comics) 
Poetry (Single Poems, or in the case of many interrelated, epic poems, one would include the entire work)
Video Games

For Classical Music, only whole works as composed/published by the composer, may be submitted. For instance, please do not submit single movements, of a whole multi-movement Classical Work. Single songs or movements or cantatas, etc, are fine in cases where they do constitute the entire work released by the artist.

For Rock/Jazz or non-Classical music submissions, please submit only whole albums. Official EPs are fine as long as they weren't also part of a full-length album before or later. No compilations or bootlegs or otherwise "unofficial" releases. Officially released Live albums are fine. Singles or single songs are fine, unless they were included on an official non-compilation album, (in which case the whole album would be submitted).

For Films, they are separate entries based on release date. No parts of the film may be submitted on their own, just the whole film. You may make special mention of an editor or cinematographer or actor, etc, if you'd like, but only the film as a single, whole work will be included in the results. If the film has multiple parts, they must have all been released together at the same time to count as one entry. Therefore, submissions such as The Godfather, Parts I-III would not be a single entry, but each Part would be individual.

For TV shows, there are no limits in terms of seasons per entry. When you choose a show, you may distinguish which season(s) if you like, but I will be including all such submissions under the same selection, so it won't matter towards the final results.

For Theater, you are simply choosing the original theatrical work. You may choose any form of theater (including dance). You may make mention of specific performances if you'd like, but they will all be included under the original theatrical work and artist, unless a newer version is not just an updated copy but a uniquely new version.

For Paintings/Drawing/Visual Art, ensure you choose the whole work, considered as such by the artist. For instance, with a triptych one would choose the whole work, not just a single panel. For instance, with Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel, it would be both the Ceiling and The Last Judgment as a single, whole entry, not just one or the other, or "The Creation of Adam" alone.

For Sculpture, it is simply the whole work as distinguished by the artist, distinct from the room or hall or Church, etc, that it is presented in, which would need a separate, architectural entry to be included. If such architecture was also produced as part of the sculpture such as inclusive of it or an extension of its themes, then there is a possibility for it to all be included as one work. Just double check with me first.

For Literature, any fiction or non-fiction book is allowed. Any comic book or strip. For comic strips I am not going to get too strict about separating it "by strip" or what-have-you, just because I think this gets too complicated. If someone submits them as such, the vote will still go all to a single entry (such as "Peanuts" or "Garfield"). Any written thesis or philosophy, etc, is fine, as long as it is in its final form from the author -- just include the whole work, only broken up by when it was released by the author. Any poem is allowed, as long as it is one work as distinguished by the artist. For very large poems, one would include the whole work (such as Dante's Divine Comedy or Milton's Paradise Lost).

For Video Games, any can count, on any system, portable or home, arcade, etc. Video games almost always have a sense of visual art and cinema to them, so it's difficult to argue against them, as they have become an increasingly legitimate art form.

Also, for any works that have multiple versions (Ridley Scott's Blade Runner, Bruckner's 8th Symphony, etc), you do not need to distinguish which (unless you want to), as all versions will be included under the same entry in the final results. Only one will be allowed per list of entries (not multiple entries of different versions of the same work).

Essentially, what it comes down to is what the artist considered to be the whole work upon completion, even if its parts were created over an unusually long period or at entirely separate times (such as Bach's Mass in B Minor or Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel).*


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## Phil loves classical

Holy, Afterhours, read quickly through your last reply. My concern is Piero Scaruffi, like some critics, have a very specific view that is hardly all encompassing. He can elaborate on why this work is great, or this one is bad, but it is hardly a balanced view, but focussies on a very narrow outlook. I used to be a fan of his, Griel Marcus and Jimmy Gutterman, when I was first into rock, punk, and considered them the authorities on the subject, but over time, I found their views very narrow and limited. I think it may be because taking a balanced view is boring, while making shocking claims generates more attention. Jimmy Guterman's favourite Beatles albums is Please Please Me, and is in his top 15 rock albums of all time. Even as a Beatles fan, I find that rediculous.


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Holy, Afterhours, read quickly through your last reply. My concern is Piero Scaruffi, like some critics, have a very specific view that is hardly all encompassing. He can elaborate on why this work is great, or this one is bad, but it is hardly a balanced view, but focussies on a very narrow outlook. I used to be a fan of his, Griel Marcus and Jimmy Gutterman, when I was first into rock, punk, and considered them the authorities on the subject, but over time, I found their views very narrow and limited. I think it may be because taking a balanced view is boring, while making shocking claims generates more attention. Jimmy Guterman's favourite Beatles albums is Please Please Me, and is in his top 15 rock albums of all time. Even as a Beatles fan, I find that rediculous.


Having listened to thousands of Rock albums across its history, from the most popular and classic ones to the most experimental and obscure ones, and all stages in between, I haven't found this to be true at all. Scaruffi's selections are far more multi-dimensional and balanced than any list or critic I've ever seen. It's not even remotely close. His view could hardly be more inclusive of genre/types of music. However, he (fortunately, as it is virtually non-existent with rock critics) holds particularly high standards as regards quality and does not buy into "hype", "media exposure" or "general acclaim" whatsoever.


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> Holy, Afterhours, read quickly through your last reply. My concern is Piero Scaruffi, like some critics, have a very specific view that is hardly all encompassing. He can elaborate on why this work is great, or this one is bad, but it is hardly a balanced view, but focussies on a very narrow outlook. I used to be a fan of his, Griel Marcus and Jimmy Gutterman, when I was first into rock, punk, and considered them the authorities on the subject, but over time, I found their views very narrow and limited. I think it may be because taking a balanced view is boring, while making shocking claims generates more attention. Jimmy Guterman's favourite Beatles albums is Please Please Me, and is in his top 15 rock albums of all time. Even as a Beatles fan, I find that rediculous.


Re: Please Please Me ... He is welcome to his opinion, and I understand that it is all but required of a critic to call such an album a "classic", but personally, I think it's one of the worst albums ever released. It doesn't particularly deserve vitriol or criticism as it is a very innocent and naive work, and there's no doubt the Fab Four are just having a good time, but musically, it makes Sgt Pepper look like Wagner's Ring. I don't recall there being a single song that isn't a creatively trivial, one-dimensional relay of its emotion/concept. Utterly pointless album if one has experienced a modicum of music history. Its melodic sense, sensation and enthusiasm was far surpassed musically hundreds of years prior (Haydn, Mozart, etc), throughout its own time, and thereafter. Very valuable to Beatlemania of the time, I suppose, and "historically important" if you consider such things important in the development of music as an art form.


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## Magnum Miserium

Let the record show, Piero Scaruffi is an idiot, George Starostin is a genius.


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## AfterHours

Magnum Miserium said:


> Let the record show, Piero Scaruffi is an idiot, George Starostin is a genius.


There! It's official now. Next.


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## Phil loves classical

Magnum Miserium said:


> Let the record show, Piero Scaruffi is an idiot, George Starostin is a genius.


They both have interesting views. Starostin was definitely a Beatles, Who, Dylan, and Stones fan. i'm inspired to start a 10 greatest Rock albums thread on the non-classical forum.


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## Magnum Miserium

Phil loves classical said:


> They both have interesting views. Starostin was definitely a Beatles, Who, Dylan, and Stones fan.


Still is. He just revisited most of the Rolling Stones' discography and it may be the best writing he's ever done on them. http://only-solitaire.blogspot.com/search/label/Rolling Stones


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## hpowders

Jazz Album: Soundtrack to the film Jack Johnson. Miles Davis.

One of the most exhilarating experiences of my life.


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## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> Jazz Album: Soundtrack to the film Jack Johnson. Miles Davis.
> 
> One of the most exhilarating experiences of my life.


Yes, I too love that period from Davis. Bitches Brew, especially, is among my all time favorites of any genre (Rock, Jazz or Classical).


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## hpowders

AfterHours said:


> Yes, I too love that period from Davis. Bitches Brew, especially, is among my all time favorites of any genre (Rock, Jazz or Classical).


Yeah. I moved out of my apt. because the guy under me kept banging up with a broom handle, thanks to Bitches Brew.

After I moved, my new next door neighbor didn't care much for Jack Johnson either! :lol:


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## AfterHours

hpowders said:


> Yeah. I moved out of my apt. because the guy under me kept banging up with a broom handle, thanks to Bitches Brew.
> 
> After I moved, my new next door neighbor didn't care much for Jack Johnson either! :lol:


:clap::clap::clap:


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## Phil loves classical

It's hard to compare Classical music with Popular music, as the focus of popular music is not on exploring the boundaries of musical theory, but on the social conscious. Which is more important? If Great art is on strict criteria based on musical theory, originality, and ingenuity, there wouldn't be any place for popular music here.

P.s. Except Strawberry Fields!


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## AfterHours

Phil loves classical said:


> It's hard to compare Classical music with Popular music, as the focus of popular music is not on exploring the boundaries of musical theory, but on the social conscious. Which is more important? If Great art is on strict criteria based on musical theory, originality, and ingenuity, there wouldn't be any place for popular music here.
> 
> P.s. Except Strawberry Fields!


I would word it a bit differently as there are exceptions, and I feel there is more to the criteria than that -- but in terms of the gist of what you're saying, we pretty much agree. Artists such as The Beatles we're not even really trying to make great art until 1967 (with certain exceptions for Revolver and perhaps some songs before that), which is (to oversimplify) why I do not rate them as "great art" until Sgt Pepper, which I think is an excellent album along with Abbey Rd. I wouldn't rate either as all time masterpieces, but they are both excellent works that I enjoy quite a bit, with a lot more creativity, emotional and conceptual depth than their earlier work. The White Album and Magical Mystery Tour too, have excellent works within them, but aren't as consistent to me.


----------



## AfterHours

And I agree with you on Strawberry Fields Forever. Definitely among their very best songs.


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## Phil loves classical

AfterHours said:


> I would word it a bit differently as there are exceptions, and I feel there is more to the criteria than that -- but in terms of the gist of what you're saying, we pretty much agree. Artists such as The Beatles we're not even really trying to make great art until 1967 (with certain exceptions for Revolver and perhaps some songs before that), which is (to oversimplify) why I do not rate them as "great art" until Sgt Pepper, which I think is an excellent album along with Abbey Rd. I wouldn't rate either as all time masterpieces, but they are both excellent works that I enjoy quite a bit, with a lot more creativity, emotional and conceptual depth than their earlier work. The White Album and Magical Mystery Tour too, have excellent works within them, but aren't as consistent to me.


Heck, Magical Mystery Tour was a mess of great and terrible songs. i only put in on the list because you couldn't allow me to put a single that's been on an album before.


----------



## Vaneyes

I don't know about greatest, but two of my favorites are at Galleria Borghese (Rome) and Musee d'Orsay (Paris). :tiphat::tiphat:

*Bernini* - Apollo and Daphne










*Cezanne *- The Card Players


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## Xaltotun

OK, I can list the artist names since you asked, but my Internet time is too limited to google the respective years, sorry!

1. Der Ring des Nibelungen (opera) - Richard Wagner
2. Sistine chapel (painting) - Michelangelo
3. St. Peter’s (architechture) - Michelangelo and Bernini
4. The Republic (literature) - Plato
5. The Laokoon Group (sculpture) - Agesander, Athenodorus and Polydurus (or a Roman copy)
6. Oresteia (literature) - Aeschylus
7. The Aeneid (literature) - Virgil
8. The Bible (literature) - several
9. Missa Solemnis (music) - Beethoven
10. B minor mass (music) - Bach
11. Paradise Lost (literature) - John Milton
12. Symphony 5 (music) - Anthon Bruckner
13. Ivan the Terrible (film) - Sergei Eisenstein
14. Iason (sculpture) - Bertil Thorvaldsen
15. Intervention of the Sabine Women (painting) - Jacques-Louis David
16. Andrei Rublev (film) - Andrei Tarkovsky
17. The Iliad (literature) - Homer
18. Battleship Potemkin (film) - Sergei Eisenstein
19. Sunrise (film) - F.W. Murnau
20. Amiens Cathedral (architecture) - Robert of Luzarches, Thomas and Regnault de Cormont
21. Theseus and the Minotaur (sculpture) - Antonio Canova
22. Jerusalem Delivered (literature) - Torquato Tasso
23. Critique of Judgement (literature) - Immanuel Kant
24. Hagia Sophia (architecture) - Isidore of Miletus, Anthemius of Tralles
25. Apollo Belvedere (sculpture) - Leochares (Roman copy)
26. Het Steen (painting) - P.P. Rubens
27. La Grande Illusion (film) - Jean Renoir
28. Brothers Karamazov (literature) - Dostoyevsky
29. Pietá (sculpture) - Michelangelo
30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni (sculpture) - Bernini
31. Parthenon (architecture) - Iktinos and Callicrates
32. Transfiguration of Christ (painting) - Raphael
33. Piano sonata in B minor (music) - Liszt
34. Diary of a Country Priest (film) - Robert Bresson
35. Pensées (literature) - Blaise Pascal
36. Requiem fragment (music) - Mozart
37. Moby Dick (literature) - H. Melville
38. Parsifal (opera) - Richard Wagner
39. Symphony 8 - Anton Bruckner
40. Die Zauberberg (literature) - Thomas Mann
41. Gargantua and Pantagruel (literature) - Francois Rabelais
42. Il Gattopardo (film) - Luchino Visconti
43. Self-portrait (painting) - Albrecht Dürer
44. The Annunciation (painting) - Titian (late work, I think he painted the Annunciation more than once)
45. Villa Savoye (architecture) - Le Corbusier
46. Crucifixion (painting) - Tintoretto
47. Faust (literature) - Goethe
48. Die Schöpfung (music) - Haydn
49. The Fall of Phaeton (painting) - P.P. Rubens
50. Gurrelieder (music) - Arnold Schoenberg


----------



## AfterHours

Xaltotun said:


> OK, I can list the artist names since you asked, but my Internet time is too limited to google the respective years, sorry!
> 
> 1. Der Ring des Nibelungen (opera) - Richard Wagner
> 2. Sistine chapel (painting) - Michelangelo
> 3. St. Peter's (architechture) - Michelangelo and Bernini
> 4. The Republic (literature) - Plato
> 5. The Laokoon Group (sculpture) - Agesander, Athenodorus and Polydurus (or a Roman copy)
> 6. Oresteia (literature) - Aeschylus
> 7. The Aeneid (literature) - Virgil
> 8. The Bible (literature) - several
> 9. Missa Solemnis (music) - Beethoven
> 10. B minor mass (music) - Bach
> 11. Paradise Lost (literature) - John Milton
> 12. Symphony 5 (music) - Anthon Bruckner
> 13. Ivan the Terrible (film) - Sergei Eisenstein
> 14. Iason (sculpture) - Bertil Thorvaldsen
> 15. Intervention of the Sabine Women (painting) - Jacques-Louis David
> 16. Andrei Rublev (film) - Andrei Tarkovsky
> 17. The Iliad (literature) - Homer
> 18. Battleship Potemkin (film) - Sergei Eisenstein
> 19. Sunrise (film) - F.W. Murnau
> 20. Amiens Cathedral (architecture) - Robert of Luzarches, Thomas and Regnault de Cormont
> 21. Theseus and the Minotaur (sculpture) - Antonio Canova
> 22. Jerusalem Delivered (literature) - Torquato Tasso
> 23. Critique of Judgement (literature) - Immanuel Kant
> 24. Hagia Sophia (architecture) - Isidore of Miletus, Anthemius of Tralles
> 25. Apollo Belvedere (sculpture) - Leochares (Roman copy)
> 26. Het Steen (painting) - P.P. Rubens
> 27. La Grande Illusion (film) - Jean Renoir
> 28. Brothers Karamazov (literature) - Dostoyevsky
> 29. Pietá (sculpture) - Michelangelo
> 30. Blessed Ludovica Albertoni (sculpture) - Bernini
> 31. Parthenon (architecture) - Iktinos and Callicrates
> 32. Transfiguration of Christ (painting) - Raphael
> 33. Piano sonata in B minor (music) - Liszt
> 34. Diary of a Country Priest (film) - Robert Bresson
> 35. Pensées (literature) - Blaise Pascal
> 36. Requiem fragment (music) - Mozart
> 37. Moby Dick (literature) - H. Melville
> 38. Parsifal (opera) - Richard Wagner
> 39. Symphony 8 - Anton Bruckner
> 40. Die Zauberberg (literature) - Thomas Mann
> 41. Gargantua and Pantagruel (literature) - Francois Rabelais
> 42. Il Gattopardo (film) - Luchino Visconti
> 43. Self-portrait (painting) - Albrecht Dürer
> 44. The Annunciation (painting) - Titian (late work, I think he painted the Annunciation more than once)
> 45. Villa Savoye (architecture) - Le Corbusier
> 46. Crucifixion (painting) - Tintoretto
> 47. Faust (literature) - Goethe
> 48. Die Schöpfung (music) - Haydn
> 49. The Fall of Phaeton (painting) - P.P. Rubens
> 50. Gurrelieder (music) - Arnold Schoenberg


Love it! Thank you. Years are preferred, but is of lesser importance than the title + artist. Fascinating list!


----------



## AfterHours

I will be re-posting this update frequently, probably once per page or so, so that it is not missed by those voting... Too bad the OP can't be edited 

I've updated the "rules" for the poll as follows, in order to be a bit more specific about the various art forms allowed (and so we end up having a poll with worthwhile results.) I do not believe this will affect any previous official submissions, but I will look back through them just in case.

*As to be an effective poll at all, there still needs to be some parameters, the following forms of Art may be included, and no others:

Classical Music Works 
Rock Albums 
Jazz Albums
Songs (that were not part of a non-compilation album) 
Films 
TV Shows 
Theater 
Paintings (or drawings too) 
Other Visual Art Works, including Installations 
Sculpture 
Architecture 
Literature (including any fiction or non-fiction, including comics) 
Poetry (Single Poems, or in the case of many interrelated, epic poems, one would include the entire work)
Video Games

For Classical Music, only whole works as composed/published by the composer, may be submitted. For instance, please do not submit single movements, of a whole multi-movement Classical Work. Single songs or movements or cantatas, etc, are fine in cases where they do constitute the entire work released by the artist.

For Rock/Jazz or non-Classical music submissions, please submit only whole albums. Official EPs are fine as long as they weren't also part of a full-length album before or later. No compilations or bootlegs or otherwise "unofficial" releases. Officially released Live albums are fine. Singles or single songs are fine, unless they were included on an official non-compilation album, (in which case the whole album would be submitted).

For Films, they are separate entries based on release date. No parts of the film may be submitted on their own, just the whole film. You may make special mention of an editor or cinematographer or actor, etc, if you'd like, but only the film as a single, whole work will be included in the results. If the film has multiple parts, they must have all been released together at the same time to count as one entry. Therefore, submissions such as The Godfather, Parts I-III would not be a single entry, but each Part would be individual.

For TV shows, there are no limits in terms of seasons per entry. When you choose a show, you may distinguish which season(s) if you like, but I will be including all such submissions under the same selection, so it won't matter towards the final results.

For Theater, you are simply choosing the original theatrical work. You may choose any form of theater (including dance). You may make mention of specific performances if you'd like, but they will all be included under the original theatrical work and artist, unless a newer version is not just an updated copy but a uniquely new version.

For Paintings/Drawing/Visual Art, ensure you choose the whole work, considered as such by the artist. For instance, with a triptych one would choose the whole work, not just a single panel. For instance, with Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel, it would be both the Ceiling and The Last Judgment as a single, whole entry, not just one or the other, or "The Creation of Adam" alone.

For Sculpture, it is simply the whole work as distinguished by the artist, distinct from the room or hall or Church, etc, that it is presented in, which would need a separate, architectural entry to be included. If such architecture was also produced as part of the sculpture such as inclusive of it or an extension of its themes, then there is a possibility for it to all be included as one work. Just double check with me first.

For Literature, any fiction or non-fiction book is allowed. Any comic book or strip. For comic strips I am not going to get too strict about separating it "by strip" or what-have-you, just because I think this gets too complicated. If someone submits them as such, the vote will still go all to a single entry (such as "Peanuts" or "Garfield"). Any written thesis or philosophy, etc, is fine, as long as it is in its final form from the author -- just include the whole work, only broken up by when it was released by the author. Any poem is allowed, as long as it is one work as distinguished by the artist. For very large poems, one would include the whole work (such as Dante's Divine Comedy or Milton's Paradise Lost).

For Video Games, any can count, on any system, portable or home, arcade, etc. Video games almost always have a sense of visual art and cinema to them, so it's difficult to argue against them, as they have become an increasingly legitimate art form.

Also, for any works that have multiple versions (Ridley Scott's Blade Runner, Bruckner's 8th Symphony, etc), you do not need to distinguish which (unless you want to), as all versions will be included under the same entry in the final results. Only one will be allowed per list of entries (not multiple entries of different versions of the same work).

Essentially, what it comes down to is what the artist considered to be the whole work upon completion, even if its parts were created over an unusually long period or at entirely separate times (such as Bach's Mass in B Minor or Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel).*


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## Pat Fairlea

For poetry, I nominate 'Poem in October', by Dylan Thomas.


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## AfterHours

Pat Fairlea said:


> For poetry, I nominate 'Poem in October', by Dylan Thomas.


I would love to see a whole list from you! (unless you've already done so and I'm just forgetting?) Please see the OP where it covers the minimum number of entries being 10 (and up to 50).


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## mmsbls

AfterHours said:


> I will be re-posting this update frequently, probably once per page or so, so that it is not missed by those voting... Too bad the OP can't be edited


The OP can be edited although no longer by you. If you wish a moderator to edit the OP by, for example, adding some rules, just let us know what you'd like.


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## AfterHours

mmsbls said:


> The OP can be edited although no longer by you. If you wish a moderator to edit the OP by, for example, adding some rules, just let us know what you'd like.


Great news! I will get back to you with that as soon as I can.


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## Strange Magic

I sometimes work very slowly. Here are ten wonderful poems....

Fern Hill: Dylan Thomas
Kubla Khan: Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Dover Beach: Matthew Arnold
The Second Coming: William Butler Yeats
The Tyger: William Blake
Hurt Hawks: Robinson Jeffers
Science: Robinson Jeffers
To a Young Artist: Robinson Jeffers
Credo: Robinson Jeffers
Rearmament: Robinson Jeffers


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## Strange Magic

Here are ten excellent works of fiction well worth the reading:

Moby Dick: Herman Melville
The Wind in the Willows: Kenneth Grahame
War and Peace: Leo Tolstoy
The Jungle Books: Rudyard Kipling
Hamlet: William Shakespeare
Julius Caesar: William Shakespeare
Winnie-the-Pooh and The House at Pooh Corners: A.A. Milne
The Martian Chronicles: Ray Bradbury
City: Clifford Simak
The Silmarillion: J.R.R. Tolkien


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## AfterHours

Strange Magic said:


> Here are ten excellent works of fiction well worth the reading:
> 
> Moby Dick: Herman Melville
> The Wind in the Willows: Kenneth Grahame
> War and Peace: Leo Tolstoy
> The Jungle Books: Rudyard Kipling
> Hamlet: William Shakespeare
> Julius Caesar: William Shakespeare
> Winnie-the-Pooh and The House at Pooh Corners: A.A. Milne
> The Martian Chronicles: Ray Bradbury
> City: Clifford Simak
> The Silmarillion: J.R.R. Tolkien


Thank you, love the diversity, are you planning on submitting a complete list, altogether, in sequential order, 10-50 entries?


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## Strange Magic

Ten paintings I wish I owned as originals:

The Sleeping Gypsy: Henri Rousseau
The Race Track: Albert Pinkham Ryder
The Home of the Heron: George Inness
Rain, Steam and Speed: J.M.W. Turner
Saturn Devouring his Son: Goya
Conjuring Back the Buffalo: Frederic Remington
Sinbad the Sailor: Paul Klee
Approaching Storm: Beach near Newport: Martin Johnson Heade
The White Bridge: John Henry Twachtman
Crows Over a Cornfield: Vincent Van Gogh


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## Strange Magic

AfterHours said:


> Thank you, love the diversity, are you planning on submitting a complete list, altogether, in sequential order, 10-50 entries?


No, not sequentially. I do not know my own mind well enough to list 50 anythings in sequential order of preference. Suggestion for another thread: List your/my ten favorite poets, painters, composers, etc. I think most people do have very positive feelings toward certain artists who reverberate with them. For example, I could name ten painters easily whose work almost always appeals to me. As an aside, though, I am no good at determining what is Great/Greatest Art; I can only tell you what I like.

[Edit] Feel free to put these into any sequence you like, though a random number program would work well.


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## Phil loves classical

Strange Magic said:


> No, not sequentially. I do not know my own mind well enough to list 50 anythings in sequential order of preference. Suggestion for another thread: List your/my ten favorite poets, painters, composers, etc. I think most people do have very positive feelings toward certain artists who reverberate with them. For example, I could name ten painters easily whose work almost always appeals to me. As an aside, though, I am no good at determining what is Great/Greatest Art; I can only tell you what I like.


What?! You can't determine the Greatest Art and put in descending order? Everybody else here can


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## AfterHours

Strange Magic said:


> No, not sequentially. I do not know my own mind well enough to list 50 anythings in sequential order of preference. Suggestion for another thread: List your/my ten favorite poets, painters, composers, etc. I think most people do have very positive feelings toward certain artists who reverberate with them. For example, I could name ten painters easily whose work almost always appeals to me. As an aside, though, I am no good at determining what is Great/Greatest Art; I can only tell you what I like.
> 
> [Edit] Feel free to put these into any sequence you like, though a random number program would work well.


Just list your favorites then. I don't know why people would bother with a list of anything else. Objectivity is overrated, don't you think so, objectively speaking?


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## Strange Magic

Here are ten classical compositions that I greatly enjoy, and, as is true for the other categories, there are more.....

Ravel: Concerto for the Left Hand
Beethoven: Symphony #3
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra
Brahms: Piano Concerto #2
Brahms: Symphony #4
Mozart: Symphony #41
D'Indy: Symphony on a French Mountain Air
Martinu: Concerto for Two Pianos
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #2
Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #3


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## ibrahim

I appreciate this thread and everyone's lists, though I'm not inclined to make one myself. However, I did notice "Hamlet" in quite a few of the lists. A few years ago I came across a full audio recording for the BBC done in the early 90s by Kenneth Branagh and his troupe (a fair number of whom he re-used for his 1996 cinematic adaptation). It's so damn good and performed with such emotion and care that it's honestly my most preferred way of experiencing this majestic work.


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## beetzart

Beethoven's 16th Op. 135 F major String Quartet must be in the top one, surely?


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## AfterHours

beetzart said:


> Beethoven's 16th Op. 135 F major String Quartet must be in the top one, surely?


His 16th is superb of course, but even over #14 and #15?


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## beetzart

AfterHours said:


> His 16th is superb of course, but even over #14 and #15?


Yes, I think it is impossible to split the last five.


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## Casebearer

The greatest work of art is this by Marina Abramovic 'The Artist is Present'. If you don't know the story read some about it to understand what's happening.


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## Phil loves classical

Casebearer said:


> The greatest work of art is this by Marina Abramovic 'The Artist is Present'. If you don't know the story read some about it to understand what's happening.


I read what happened 5 years after too


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## science

1. Shakespeare's _King Lear_ 
2. Ecclesiastes 
3. Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address 
4. Bergman's _The Seventh Seal_ 
5. _The Blue Marble_ 
6. Shinoda's Mako Shark II 
7. Tokaji wine (pretty much any of it)

I haven't got the time or energy to rank the others yet, and I'm sure I'd change out about half these if I could really think of everything at once, but a rough draft....

Shakespeare's _Romeo and Juliet_ 
Bronte's _Jane Eyre_
Chanel's 1926 Little Black Dress
Miles Davis's album _Kind of Blue_, especially the track "So What" 
Ginsberg's _Howl_

Nine Inch Nails (Trent Reznor)'s "Heresy"
Glenlivet 21 
Seokguram Grotto 
The _Tao Te Ching_ 
The Gospel of Matthew (the actual book of the Bible, not the film)

Mozart's _Don Giovanni_ 
Bach's _Mass in B minor_ 
Allegri's _Miserere_ 
Debussy's _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_
Led Zeppelin IV (Zoso)

The Humble Administrator's Garden 
The Hagia Sophia 
The Christ Pantocrator icon of St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai 
Kierkegaard's _The Sickness Unto Death_ (particularly the opening paragraphs) 
Tagore's _Songs of Kabir_

The _Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam_ 
The _Odyssey_ 
Bob Seger's "Like a Rock" 
The poetry of Li Bai 
The Bahai garden in Haifa

The Taj Mahal 
Antoine's oysters Rockefeller 
The Pont du Gard 
The Great Pyramid of Giza 
Sophocles's _Oedipus Rex_

Chartres Cathedral 
Laocoön and His Sons 
Baldwin's _Sonny's Blues_ 
Kafka's _The Metamorphosis_ 
Mann's _The Last of the Mohicans_

"Harper Lee's" _To Kill a Mockingbird_ (I don't believe Lee was responsible for the genius of the novel) 
Majidi's _Children of Heaven_ 
Leone's _The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly_
Pollock's _One: Number 31, 1950_ 
Padron's 1964 Anniversary Series Exclusivo

Burberry trench coat 
The Emeralite lamp 
The tango 
The Aeron chair 
Hokusai's _The Great Wave off Kanagawa_

Altamira Cave 
Beethoven's Fifth Symphony 
Vermeer's _Girl with a Pearl Earring_ 
Sagan's _The Demon-Haunted World_ 
The Fender Stratocaster

The "Mystery Man" scene in Lynch's _Lost Highway_ 
The Napoleonic egg by Fabergé 
Bayon (the Khmer temple) 
The Vishvanatha Temple at Khajuraho 
"Two Green and White Dragon Vases," Qing Dynasty (at the Newark Museum)

Looks like I'm 5 or 10 or 15 over, but that's no biggie because I'll have to add about 50 more candidates before I narrow it down


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## AfterHours

Casebearer said:


> The greatest work of art is this by Marina Abramovic 'The Artist is Present'. If you don't know the story read some about it to understand what's happening.


Thank you, I've never heard of it, so I'll check this out tonight (so at the moment can't tell if you're serious or not). Even more incredible than Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel? Beethoven's 9th? Hamlet? Citizen Kane? T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland? The Trial? The Divine Comedy? Paradise Lost?


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## AfterHours

science said:


> 1. Shakespeare's _King Lear_
> 2. Ecclesiastes
> 3. Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address
> 4. Bergman's _The Seventh Seal_
> 5. _The Blue Marble_
> 6. Shinoda's Mako Shark II
> 7. Tokaji wine (pretty much any of it)
> 
> I haven't got the time or energy to rank the others yet, and I'm sure I'd change out about half these if I could really think of everything at once, but a rough draft....
> 
> Shakespeare's _Romeo and Juliet_
> Bronte's _Jane Eyre_
> Chanel's 1926 Little Black Dress
> Miles Davis's album _Kind of Blue_, especially the track "So What"
> Ginsberg's _Howl_
> 
> Nine Inch Nails (Trent Reznor)'s "Heresy"
> Glenlivet 21
> Seokguram Grotto
> The _Tao Te Ching_
> The Gospel of Matthew (the actual book of the Bible, not the film)
> 
> Mozart's _Don Giovanni_
> Bach's _Mass in B minor_
> Allegri's _Miserere_
> Debussy's _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_
> Led Zeppelin IV (Zoso)
> 
> The Humble Administrator's Garden
> The Hagia Sophia
> The Christ Pantocrator icon of St. Catherine's Monastery on Mt. Sinai
> Kierkegaard's _The Sickness Unto Death_ (particularly the opening paragraphs)
> Tagore's _Songs of Kabir_
> 
> The _Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam_
> The _Odyssey_
> Bob Seger's "Like a Rock"
> The poetry of Li Bai
> The Bahai garden in Haifa
> 
> The Taj Mahal
> Antoine's oysters Rockefeller
> The Pont du Gard
> The Great Pyramid of Giza
> Sophocles's _Oedipus Rex_
> 
> Chartres Cathedral
> Laocoön and His Sons
> Baldwin's _Sonny's Blues_
> Kafka's _The Metamorphosis_
> Mann's _The Last of the Mohicans_
> 
> "Harper Lee's" _To Kill a Mockingbird_ (I don't believe Lee was responsible for the genius of the novel)
> Majidi's _Children of Heaven_
> Leone's _The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly_
> Pollock's _One: Number 31, 1950_
> Padron's 1964 Anniversary Series Exclusivo
> 
> Burberry trench coat
> The Emeralite lamp
> The tango
> The Aeron chair
> Hokusai's _The Great Wave off Kanagawa_
> 
> Altamira Cave
> Beethoven's Fifth Symphony
> Vermeer's _Girl with a Pearl Earring_
> Sagan's _The Demon-Haunted World_
> The Fender Stratocaster
> 
> The "Mystery Man" scene in Lynch's _Lost Highway_
> The Napoleonic egg by Fabergé
> Bayon (the Khmer temple)
> The Vishvanatha Temple at Khajuraho
> "Two Green and White Dragon Vases," Qing Dynasty (at the Newark Museum)
> 
> Looks like I'm 5 or 10 or 15 over, but that's no biggie because I'll have to add about 50 more candidates before I narrow it down


Great, love the diversity. Looking forward to your final draft


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## Teakovsky

The big problem with making a list of this kind is that something phenomenal will always fall into oblivion.
I realized the absolute lack of Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Barber and other not so well-known composers, but who wrote incredible things like Villa-Lobos and Scriabin.
I can not understand how the last 3 symphonies of Tchaikovsky were ignored, especially the Pathetic (quoted once, if I'm not mistaken).
The "Ecstasy Poem" by Scriabin.


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## AfterHours

Teakovsky said:


> The big problem with making a list of this kind is that something phenomenal will always fall into oblivion.
> I realized the absolute lack of Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Barber and other not so well-known composers, but who wrote incredible things like Villa-Lobos and Scriabin.
> I can not understand how the last 3 symphonies of Tchaikovsky were ignored, especially the Pathetic (quoted once, if I'm not mistaken).
> The "Ecstasy Poem" by Scriabin.


I don't think it's a "problem". It might just mean, when we're limiting the selections to 50, the standards are extremely high as to what makes it (I would hope at least), and even works as astonishing as those might not quite be astonishing enough. Personally, I considered both, especially Tchaikovsky's 6th, but it was among many that I had to cut in favor of even greater works (in my opinion).


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## Casebearer

Phil loves classical said:


> I read what happened 5 years after too


Well, then I beat you by two or three years this time :lol:


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## Casebearer

AfterHours said:


> Thank you, I've never heard of it, so I'll check this out tonight (so at the moment can't tell if you're serious or not). Even more incredible than Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel? Beethoven's 9th? Hamlet? Citizen Kane? T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland? The Trial? The Divine Comedy? Paradise Lost?


Yes, I'm serious, at least to some extent. I think it is a fascinating piece of instanteneous art involving the artist, the one-minute guests and the public. In my opinion it is very powerful and touches deep layers of emotion.

Of course difficult to say if it is the greatest art ever but I also wanted to broaden the scope of this thread that mainly consists of listings of great music. Music is great, music may even be the best but there's more art under the sun and also different forms of art.

Main thing is are you touched by it?


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## AfterHours

Casebearer said:


> Yes, I'm serious, at least to some extent. I think it is a fascinating piece of instanteneous art involving the artist, the one-minute guests and the public. In my opinion it is very powerful and touches deep layers of emotion.
> 
> Of course difficult to say if it is the greatest art ever but I also wanted to broaden the scope of this thread that mainly consists of listings of great music. Music is great, music may even be the best but there's more art under the sun and also different forms of art.
> 
> Main thing is are you touched by it?


Right on, I will be checking it out


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## Selby

I only made it to 15 to start; I had more fun than I anticipated:

1.	Touch
2.	Dance
3.	Voice
4.	Paint
5.	Textiles (34,000 BCE)
6.	Stonehenge (3000-2000 BCE)
7.	Great Pyramid of Giza (2540-2560 BCE)
8.	Library of Alexandria (300 BCE)
9.	Great Wall of China (220–206 BCE)
10.	Arabic numerals (c. 500)
11.	Fibonacci sequence/Golden ratio (Liber Abaci, 1202)
12.	Gutenberg Bible (c. 1450)
13.	String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Op. 131 - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826)
14.	Kind of Blue – Miles Davis (1959)
15.	Magic: The Gathering – Richard Garfield (1993)
16.	Super Bowl XLVIII – Seattle Seahawks (2014)


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## AfterHours

Selby said:


> I only made it to 15 to start; I had more fun than I anticipated:
> 
> 1.	Touch
> 2.	Dance
> 3.	Voice
> 4.	Paint
> 5.	Textiles (34,000 BCE)
> 6.	Stonehenge (3000-2000 BCE)
> 7.	Great Pyramid of Giza (2540-2560 BCE)
> 8.	Library of Alexandria (300 BCE)
> 9.	Great Wall of China (220-206 BCE)
> 10.	Arabic numerals (c. 500)
> 11.	Fibonacci sequence/Golden ratio (Liber Abaci, 1202)
> 12.	Gutenberg Bible (c. 1450)
> 13.	String Quartet No. 14 in C-sharp minor, Op. 131 - Ludwig van Beethoven (1826)
> 14.	Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959)
> 15.	Magic: The Gathering - Richard Garfield (1993)
> 16.	Super Bowl XLVIII - Seattle Seahawks (2014)


Thank you, no doubt interesting selections, but please review the OP and the recent update to it posted on the previous page. And if you're serious about your submission, re-post in application with those. Ill be having the OP itself revised soon but have just been extra busy lately and haven't gotten around to it.


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## science

Adding a few to my list that I will pare down later: 

- the "Mud Mosque" of Djenne 
- Tian Tian Buddha 
- the Shwedagon Pagoda
- the Harimandir (Golden Temple) 
- the Warka Vase 
- the Black Hours (illuminated book) 
- the Mosque of Cordoba 
- Sucevita 
- Bedkhem Church 
- Theological Hall in the Strahov Monastery 
- Anonymous: Dies irae (the Gregorian chant) 
- Greensleeves 
- the Jain temple at Ranakpur 
- Wat Phra Kaew 

... still more to come...


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## datadervish

Hey all, I'm new here and fairly new to classical music in general, despite having listened to it on and off for the last 10 years or so. Now I'm having a real sustained period of classical exploration, which is what brings me to this forum every now and then – to find recommendations and new info. When I saw such a crazy idea as this, however, I thought I had to sign up and give it a go. 

I've limited my list to 20 and it solely reflects my favourite works of art (primarily music and literature). The works are listed in a rough order of importance to me, although the numbering becomes more arbitrary towards the end. I've only included one classical composition, as I'm still relatively early in my journey into classical music and the one real factor that decides if something is an all-time favourite for me is time. 

1. Bob Dylan: Visions of Johanna (1966, song)
2. Bob Dylan: Just Like Tom Thumb’s Blues (1965, song)
3. Bob Dylan: Tangled Up in Blue (1975, song)
4. Allen Ginsberg: Howl (1955, poem)
5. Rainer Maria Rilke: Duino Elegies (1922, poetry collection)
6. Herman Melville: Moby-Dick; or, The Whale (1851, novel)
7. Jack Kerouac: On the Road (1951, novel)
8. Rainer Maria Rilke: Sonnets to Orpheus (1922, poetry collection)
9. Pablo Neruda: Residence on Earth, Vol. 1 (1931, poetry collection)
10. Bob Dylan: Fourth Time Around (1966, song)
11. Late Autumn (1960, film directed by Yasujiro Ozu)
12. Captain Beefheart: Pachuco Cadaver (1969, song)
13. Neurosis: Sterile Vision (1992, song)
14. Michael Ondaatje: The Collected Works of Billy the Kid (1970, verse novel)
15. Harold Pinter: The Homecoming (1964, play)
16. J.H. Prynne: The White Stones (1969, poetry collection)
17. Morton Feldman: Rothko Chapel (1971, composition)
18. William Shakespeare: A Midsummer Night’s Dream (1596, play)
19. Louis Armstrong: Basin Street Blues (1928, song)
20. Louis Armstrong: Lazy River (1931, song)


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