# what is the saddest most depressing symphony you have ever heard???



## RobertJTh

It's a cold, dark and wet winter day here, I was looking out of the window and I realized that the happy symphony thread with all those happy people in it sorely needed a counterpart.
Because who needs happiness when he can get soul crushing sorrow?

I'll start with the obvious choices, would love to see your picks.
After all, you can never have enough gloom and doom in your life, right?

Mahler 6 (the hammer), 10 (the bass drum)
Schmidt 4 (losing it completely at the cello solo)
Shostakovich 4, 8, 14 and 15
Sibelius 4
Suk Azrael (do people really like this piece?)
Tchaikovsky 6 (never did much for me, but I heard it makes people sad, so here you go)
And guess I need Pettersson, lots of Pettersson.


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## Art Rock

I'd agree with Schmidt 4, Shosty 4 and 14, Sibelius, Suk (yes, I am one of those who love it), Tchaikovsky and Petterson.

Other suggestions:

Gorecki 3 'Symphony of Sorrowful songs'
Mahler 9 and 'Das Lied von der Erde' (especially the final movement)
Arnold 9


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## elgar's ghost

Another from Shosters - no.14. A symphony in name but it reality an unremittingly grim orchestral song cycle mainly about death - what more could one want?

My mistake - already mentioned in OP. Doh...


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## Heck148

Mahler 6
Shostakovich - Sym #8, 14


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## Ravn

Pettersson #7 and #8. The most depressing (in a good way) I’ve ever heard.


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## ScottK

Sad??.....Mahler #6 

Not so sure about depressing, but sad for sure.

I always disliked the title Tragic because even thought that fits the ending, I've always felt the marching feel makes it more of a heroic symphony...the heroism of pushing forward despite the bleakness of the sound world it inhabits. And that bleakness is the set-up that makes the adagio so achingly beautiful. But it is a sad landscape.


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## Waehnen

I think Brahms 1 is very dark indeed. Listen to the second movement and how the apparently calm mood all of a sudden gets bitter and escalates with the high strings. It is a wonderful yet dreadfully dark moment! It is like a rug was pulled out from under your feet: "You DID THINK everything was fine. But LITTLE DID YOU KNOW."


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## ansfelden

Probably something Shosty (just learned that from the forum, nice) as well. 
Some critic once wrote, there is not the slightest hint of metaphysics in Shostakovich music.


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## RobertJTh

Ravn said:


> Pettersson #7 and #8. The most depressing (in a good way) I've ever heard.


I just finished listening to Petterson's 7th in one go (only sampled bits and pieces of his work before).
I love youtube videos with score, they give you a much deeper understanding of the work than possible with just the music.
Though the performance (Dutch Radio Philharmonic, Kofman) is rather foursquare and it's always irritating when an orchestra doesn't play true pp and ppp, everything sounds mf and above. Can be an issue with the recording and/or youtube compression/leveling too. It's also very slow. Will probably a better recording soon.
What I find admirable about the music is that complexity of form and texture is achieved by the most simple means, and the form is entirely organic and naturally flowing. You never have the impression of repetitive sound "blocks" following each other, instead there's a continuous shifting and changing. Very unique.






Next I'll try the 8th, but this is quite enough nordic bleakness for one day.


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## Red Terror

Try any piece by Weinberg, Schnittke, or Kurtág.


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## Torkelburger

RobertJTh said:


> It's a cold, dark and wet winter day here, I was looking out of the window and I realized that the happy symphony thread with all those happy people in it sorely needed a counterpart.
> Because who needs happiness when he can get soul crushing sorrow?
> 
> I'll start with the obvious choices, would love to see your picks.
> After all, you can never have enough gloom and doom in your life, right?
> 
> Mahler 6 (the hammer), 10 (the bass drum)
> Schmidt 4 (losing it completely at the cello solo)
> Shostakovich 4, 8, 14 and 15
> Sibelius 4
> Suk Azrael (do people really like this piece?)
> Tchaikovsky 6 (never did much for me, but I heard it makes people sad, so here you go)
> And guess I need Pettersson, lots of Pettersson.


The Shostakovich 15th makes me happy, actually. Especially the first movement, the overall bright sound and the funny little William Tell quotes.


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## Torkelburger

Shostakovich didn't always write depressing music. The symphonies 1, 5, 9, and 15 (mentioned above) have plenty of bright, happy, or jocular moments. And one could argue the 10th too. And there's the 2nd PC. And don't forget the Festive Overture.


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## eljr

RobertJTh said:


> what is the saddest most depressing symphony...


The one I will never hear.


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## Heck148

RobertJTh said:


> ......Though the performance (Dutch Radio Philharmonic, Kofman) is rather foursquare and_* it's always irritating when an orchestra doesn't play true pp and ppp, everything sounds mf and above.*_ Can be an issue with the recording and/or youtube compression/leveling too. It's also very slow. Will probably a better recording soon.


the _mezzo-mezzo_ syndrome....most likely the conductor allowing musicians' laziness to prevail....everyone playing at a comfortable "kind of loud" dynamic...the greatest conductors won't allow it....


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## Josquin13

This one easily takes the cake,

--Galina Ustvolskaya - Symphony No. 5 "Amen": I find this music harrowing, depressing, and sadly disturbing: 



.

Other possible contenders,

--Allan Pettersson, Symphony No. 8: 



, or perhaps his 70 minute 9th?:



, or his troubled 6th?: 



 ....? On other hand, I find Pettersson's 7th to be more moving than depressing, & have to admit that Pettersson's conductor of choice, Sergui Comissiona finds redemption, even epiphany in this music, because he understands that there is both romanticism & modernity in Pettersson's symphonies.
--Dmitri Shostakovich, Symphony No. 14: 



--Alfred Schnittke, Symphony No. 4: 



--Ralph Vaughan Williams, Symphonies 6 & 7 "Sinfonia Antartica"--the latter being the perfect symphony to listen to on a freezing cold, bleak winter's day, but you'll need to wear a hefty sweater, beanie, & scarf. Then, if you really want to get depressed, watch the film, "Scott of the Antarctic", and have one more listen to Ustvolskaya's 5th before bedtime:

No. 6: 



No. 7:


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## whispering

Dear Art Rock I definitely agree about Gorecki symphony number 3. I first heard part of this on a TV series without realising who had composed it. The series was about the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps. One particular passage of the music was really haunting and captured the mood of the subject matter. Who ever made the music selection really knew his business.


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## HenryPenfold

Trying to decide which one of Pettersson's to name as the most depressing symphony I've ever heard .....


EDIT: I have only just read Josquin's post #15 this morning. I think I'm in good company in not knowing which Pettersson symphony is the most harrowing!


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## ScottK

Ravn said:


> Pettersson #7 and #8. The most depressing (in a good way) I've ever heard.


I like your "depressing in a good way".... which should I try first....7 or 8?


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## Barbebleu

Schubert 5 or anything by Mozart. :devil:


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## Aries

Symphonies usually don't depress me. "Sad symphonies" like Tchaikovsky No. 6, Mahler No. 9, Shostakovich No. 8 don't depress me, they are rather constructive for me. But there are symphonies so monotonously negative that I don't care for them. I guess if I would care more for them, they also would not depress me. But such symphonies are Gorecki No. 3 and Petterson symphonies.

Songs are depressing for me much more often. But depressing with instruments only doesn't appear plausible to me.


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## Ravn

ScottK said:


> I like your "depressing in a good way".... which should I try first....7 or 8?


I think #7 is the easier choice of the two.


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## hammeredklavier

Barbebleu said:


> Schubert 5 or anything by Mozart. :devil:


Look at this. Even the conductor says "Farewell":




If this isn't sad or depressing, I don't know what is. (Even the audience wails)


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist

hammeredklavier said:


> Look at this. Even the conductor says "Farewell":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this isn't sad or depressing, I don't know what is! (Even the audience wails)


The saddest thing is the quality of Haydn's music, and how centuries later he has risen to the pantheon of the Masters while his poor brother Michael, the superior composer by a country mile, remains confined to obscurity.


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## hammeredklavier

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> The saddest thing is the quality of Haydn's music


I know. Now that I think about the sad truth, the music sounds even sadder.

Imagine his poor brother saying _"A single note, hanging there, unwavering..."_ (a reference from Amadeus) about:


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## starthrower

Torkelburger said:


> The Shostakovich 15th makes me happy, actually. Especially the first movement, the overall bright sound and the funny little William Tell quotes.


Probably his most upbeat symphony along with No.1


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## leonsm

From the top of my head:

*Pettersson: no. 6 & no. 7*
Mahler: Das Lied von Der Erde, mvt. VI
Atterberg: no. 5 "Funeral"
Gorecki: no. 3 "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs"
Pärt: no. 3


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## SearsPoncho

Shostakovich 4, 8, 11, and 14. Tchaikovsky 6. Mahler 6. Brahms 4 (arguably, and I buy that argument). Gorecki 3. These are all some obvious choices, and I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty, but I have to give the nod to Shosty 8 based on a performance I attended with the Cleveland Orchestra and Ashkenazy. It was devastating; I didn't really get this symphony until I heard that performance.


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## bwv543

Nothing to add to this thread that others haven't mentioned - Brahms 4 (especially if you listen to it without the 3rd movement, as I sometimes do); Mahler 6; Sibelius 4; Bruckner 9; Shostakovich 15. Yes, I know the last-mentioned in A major has many cheery movements, but to me it comes across as nihilistic, the work of a broken genius resigned to his fate... despite its happy moments, this symphony presents to me an inescapable aura of despair and jadedness.

LOL @ the Haydn comments... I guess it's popular to bash him on this board, and there's not a single work of his that has made it onto my list of favorites, but I do find him a charming and witty composer.


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## pianozach

SearsPoncho said:


> *Shostakovich 4*, 8, 11, and 14. Tchaikovsky 6. Mahler 6. Brahms 4 (arguably, and I buy that argument). Gorecki 3. These are all some obvious choices, and I'm sure I'm forgetting plenty, but I have to give the nod to Shosty 8 based on a performance I attended with the Cleveland Orchestra and Ashkenazy. It was devastating; I didn't really get this symphony until I heard that performance.


Didn't *Stalin* walk out on the premiere performance of *Shosty's Symphony No. 4*?


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## RobertJTh

pianozach said:


> Didn't *Stalin* walk out on the premiere performance of *Shosty's Symphony No. 4*?


It didn't even get premiered, Shostakovich cancelled it after a few rehearsals. A decision that probably saved his life.


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## Heck148

pianozach said:


> Didn't *Stalin* walk out on the premiere performance of *Shosty's Symphony No. 4*?


It was never presented...The "Great Leader and Teacher" was angered by Lady Macbeth/Mtzensk - grossly offended...the violence, rape, murders depicted offended Stalin's sensibilities....[Stalin, of course, known for his _delicate sensibilities_!! (hardly!!)]


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## MarkW

whispering said:


> Dear Art Rock I definitely agree about Gorecki symphony number 3. I first heard part of this on a TV series without realising who had composed it. The series was about the horrors of the Nazi concentration camps. One particular passage of the music was really haunting and captured the mood of the subject matter. Who ever made the music selection really knew his business.


Agree completely. depressingly boring is how I would describe it.


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## RobertJTh

MarkW said:


> Agree completely. depressingly boring is how I would describe it.


It felt more annoyance and frustration than sadness when listening to it. And at some point, I couldn't repress a chuckle about how laughably pretentious it is. One of the great quasi-deep hollow vessels of modern music.


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## superhorn

I've never found the Mahler 6th to be depressing ". For me, it's cathartic . I feel purged after listening to it .


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## dko22

I must say, I find myself to a considerable extent in agreement with the initial list of RobertJTh and the follow-up replies. Bruckner 9 was mentioned once but should really be near the top in my view. What could be worse than losing your faith -- or so it seems with these terrifying dissonances in the Adagio. Still, the truly depressing symphonies should have no real consolation at the end and the very greatest among these often have at the very least some measure of this. Here I'd include Asrael, Bruckner 9, Mahler 10 and Schmidt 4 and certainly Pettersson. So one might even feel tempted to exclude them but I'd regard that as a mistake.

On others:
*Shosty* 15 leads his list
*Schnittke's* symphonies are not really among his most tragic works but the cello concertos for instance are almost unbearable
*Ustvolskaya* -- very much agree
*Mahler* 10 clear leader among his
*Pettersson* I'm not so sure about. He once said "Someone said I compose out of self-pity. Like hell I do. How does anyone think you can write music if you're all wrapped up in yourself? When you create, you have to stand above and outside such. Sympathetic feeling yes, sympathy for everyone who suffers. In my childhood we were taught to love -- but we also learned to hate" Still, his two greatest 6 and 7 have certainly a sort of cathartic effect.
*Suk* Asrael -- without a doubt
*Sibelius*, no. His greatest symphonies may be very moving but I always feel there's some objectivity there.
*Schmidt 4* -- yes, certainly
*Tchaik 6*. Objectively you have to really say yes though it moves me somewhat less than in my younger days.
*Arnold 9*. Very much so. It seems a work of almost complete resignation.
*Weinberg*. His music always strikes me as trying to be positive but when you listen to such harrowing symphonies as 13 or 17 for instance, you begin to wonder


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## Merl

I've said it before but Suk's Asrael is 1000x bleaker and more depressing than listening to Joy Division's Closer' album (and that's very dark).


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## dko22

didn't know there was another Fifer on the forum (before I moved to Stuttgart). Anyway, Asrael has for a long time been one of my absolute favourite symphonies but I'm not sure -- in keeping with my previous comment -- that it's entirely bleak. The conclusion seems to be that, in the thoughts of the composer, I will pick myself up somehow from this double blow and life will at some point continue. But this feeling comes only towards the end when no more tears are possible.


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## Merl

dko22 said:


> didn't know there was another Fifer on the forum (before I moved to Stuttgart)...


There are actually two of us (and we meet up regularly). Difference is that he's a real Fifer (and Pars fan) and I'm English and just live here.


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## dko22

Merl said:


> There are actually two of us (and we meet up regularly). Difference is that he's a real Fifer (and Pars fan) and I'm English and just live here.


I'm a St. Andrean but have been to Dunfermline a few times, mainly to watch Dundee Utd gubbing the Pars...


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## geralmar

Schubert's "Unfinished". Although there is a hint of consolation in the second movement.


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## Malx

dko22 said:


> I'm a St. Andrean but have been to Dunfermline a few times, mainly to watch Dundee Utd gubbing the Pars...


Ah a St Andrean - I guess I am too having been brought into this world at Craigtoun Maternity Hospital.

I will ignore your dis*PAR*aging comment regarding football, although I will say that during the Jim Maclean era I would support the Pars as normal but also bolster the Tannadice coffers by attending the European games midweek.

With regard to the thread I too have a great affection for Asrael but don't find it depressing - it is one of the most heartfelt compositions in the Classical canon. I have just taken down my current fav' Kubeliks BRSO 1981 recording on Panton. 
As to 'Closer' that is seriously damaging for any youth of a certain generation that suffered from teenage angst. I sense I've taken the thread a tad off topic, so I'll move on.


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## dko22

Malx said:


> Ah a St Andrean - I guess I am too having been brought into this world at Craigtoun Maternity Hospital.
> 
> I will ignore your dis*PAR*aging comment regarding football, although I will say that during the Jim Maclean era I would support the Pars as normal but also bolster the Tannadice coffers by attending the European games midweek.
> 
> With regard to the thread I too have a great affection for Asrael but don't find it depressing - it is one of the most heartfelt compositions in the Classical canon. I have just taken down my current fav' Kubeliks BRSO 1981 recording on Panton.
> As to 'Closer' that is seriously damaging for any youth of a certain generation that suffered from teenage angst. I sense I've taken the thread a tad off topic, so I'll move on.


I was also born in the long since defunct Craigtoun Maternity Hospital! 

Anyway, as I said in an earlier post, Asrael is arguably ultimately a positive and uplifting work though it takes until very near the end to feel the hope. Hearing Walter Weller (a dedicated and underestimated Suk conductor) do it here in Stuttgart only a few months before his death was one of my most memorable concerts. As for the fitba, my brother makes up for my lack of supporting a Fife team by going to see all of them very democratically. Still, I like to see them do well also when not coming up against Utd. I'm afraid the glory days of Jim McLean are not likely to return.


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## Pat Fairlea

Somebody already mentioned Arnold's 9th. I concur. It's a very sad, upsetting piece because the composer's mind had gone. The technical capacity was still there but the spark that made so much of his music vigorous, playful, expressive has gone out. Tragic.


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## Enthusiast

I know lots of sad music but good music shouldn't make you sad IMO. Surely, it should satisfy even when it is made up of (or "about") something sad or tragic. I suppose music can make us sad when we add sad or tragic extra-musical context to a work.


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## dko22

Pat Fairlea said:


> Somebody already mentioned Arnold's 9th. I concur. It's a very sad, upsetting piece because the composer's mind had gone. The technical capacity was still there but the spark that made so much of his music vigorous, playful, expressive has gone out. Tragic.


I’m not sure about the technical capacity. There was a lot of scepticism in UK establishment quarters as to whether such simple frequently 2-3 part writing was worthy of performance. Fortunately a few realised that the marked simplification of his style out of necessity is what makes the work so moving


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## Roger Knox

Artur Schnabel's atonal Symphony No. 1 is sad and depressing because this accomplished and insightful pianist and pedagogue doesn't seem to be able to succeed in modernist composing yet keeps at it. I don't think I've actually listened all the way through this one, let alone Nos. 2 and 3, the Rhapsody or the Piano Concerto. Maybe someone else hears his works differently.


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## CnC Bartok

Answering the original question honestly, Suk's monumental and powerful Asrael wins hands down.

However, I find in immensely sad and depressing that a great symphonist like Shostakovich could write his 12th, which is an utter piece of propagandist tripe, and totally unworthy of a great man.


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## Heck148

CnC Bartok said:


> However, I find in immensely sad and depressing that a great symphonist like Shostakovich could write his 12th, which is an utter piece of propagandist tripe, and totally unworthy of a great man.


#12 was the last of his "big" orchestral symphonies, tho he returned to this genre in #15...#12 is just unfocused, I guess he ran out of ideas for this one....hey, everyone gets a "mulligan" here and there...lol!!


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## Blancrocher

"Depressing" never feels like the right word for great music, but I like the mentions of Pettersson 7 and Sibelius 4 above. Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms is exhilarating, but the first movement is high on my list of "spiritual low points."


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## dko22

CnC Bartok said:


> Answering the original question honestly, Suk's monumental and powerful Asrael wins hands down.


as I said earlier, this is perhaps the most moving symphony ever written. The saddest, yes, but I find it ultimately consoling rather than depressing. Really depressing music leaves no ground for optimism and for this, Shostakovich indeed is a stronger candidate in the true sense (not in your sense of being depressingly bad --the 3rd symphony is at least as strong a candidate here)


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