# Missa Solemnis v. The Ninth v. Op. 131



## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

In light of my seeing a performance of the *Solemnis* last night, I wanted to raise this question, which I have a _vague_ inkling has been broached in the past, but I nonetheless will raise it again:

Of Beethoven's late masterpieces, do you prefer the *Ninth Symphony*, *Missa Solemnis*, or *Opus 131*? Would you include a different work?

I only nominate op. 131 to represent the late SQ works--I personally prefer Op. 130, but that's for another thread.
Moreover, after much thought, I declined to include Wellington's Victory.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I haven't heard Missa Solemnis, so I'm going for op. 131


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## Geo Dude (May 22, 2013)

A fascinating thread idea. I'll have to vote for the late string quartets, though that could change the next time I go on a Beethoven binge.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

My knee jerk reaction would be the 9th, but on careful thought, there's a lot of powerful stuff going on in the Missa Solemnis.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Avey said:


> In light of my seeing a performance of the *Solemnis* last night, I wanted to raise this question, which I have a _vague_ inkling has been broached in the past, but I nonetheless will raise it again:
> 
> Of Beethoven's late masterpieces, do you prefer the *Ninth Symphony*, *Missa Solemnis*, or *Opus 131*? Would you include a different work?
> 
> ...


Where did you see the Missa Solemnis, Avey?

It was one of my life's musical ambitions to see this monumental work performed. I saw it in Chicago in early spring of last year. It was such a spectacle that I went again in the autumn when it was performed there again! The second time was far greater than the first.

I like to listen to the Ninth Symphony closely after the Missa Solemnis. It takes tremendous concentration to hear them both in a series, but is very rewarding.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Hmmph! Nobody seems willing to admit that Beethoven wrote nothing of note after Op. 120. :devil:


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Hmmph! Nobody seems willing to admit that Beethoven wrote nothing of note after Op. 120. :devil:


Maybe because we don't admit to things that are simply not true!


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Hmmph! Nobody seems willing to admit that Beethoven wrote nothing of note after Op. 120. :devil:


Shouldn't it read, Beethoven did not write anything interesting before Op 127 and was completely over his peak by the end of Op 135! That is the view of this mayor of Simpleton any way... :tiphat:

/ptr


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Maybe because we don't admit to things that are simply not true!


Buncha darned obscurantists (grumble...)


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

I can live without either of these three, but if I had to pick one, it would be op.131 ahead of the Missa Solemnis.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I certainly don't think it has to be an either / or choice. I just love both of them.


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## Sonata (Aug 7, 2010)

Overall I prefer the first three movements of the 9th. However, I like the vocal music in Missa better than the 4th movement of the 9th


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## jani (Jun 15, 2012)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I haven't heard Missa Solemnis, so I'm going for op. 131











Here, let's fix it!


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Op. 133.

Just kidding, I'll go for the Missa.


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## Avey (Mar 5, 2013)

Novelette said:


> Where did you see the Missa Solemnis, Avey?


Helmuth Rilling conducted the piece this past Friday in Eugene, Oregon for the Oregon Bach Festival. He conducts by memory!

It was the greatest performance I've ever seen (though I've seen only a few dozen performances throughout my young life thus far). And the only sentiment I came out with: I *must* see that again.

Also, aside on the performance: During _Agnus Dei_, a member of the chorus, in the front row, faints. The chorus looks flustered, inching up and sideways to get a look at what happened, all while continuing to sing. Only the audience can see what happened; the orchestra is oblivious, soloists, too, as they are wailing out _misere_.

Then, as the _pacem_ chant approaches, this poor woman that fainted sits up, and the singer next to her waves to the conductor that everything is OK. The performance continues without missing a beat.

Do I even need to point out the symbolism here?


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Mahlerian said:


> Op. 133.
> 
> Just kidding, I'll go for the Missa.


I approve, Mahlerian. 

[Not that my approval matters, but I thought I would say so]


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Novelette said:


> I approve, Mahlerian.
> 
> [Not that my approval matters, but I thought I would say so]


I approve of your approval of my approving Beethoven's work.


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## starry (Jun 2, 2009)

I wonder how much this is which piece you know best and which least, and which in the middle. Or whether you like symphonic, chamber or choral. Is is anything more?


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## GGluek (Dec 11, 2011)

I know them all really well, and in my personal pantheon would rank Missa among the greatest pieces of music ever written. The late quartets would go next among those on your list. The Ninth, great as it is, is third.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

I can't choose; I need all three.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

I prefer symphony #9. Missa Solemnis is a great work - more respected than loved, that's how I view it.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> I prefer symphony #9. Missa Solemnis is a great work - more respected than loved, that's how I view it.


On the whole, you're surely right about it being rather respected than loved.

I happily stand as an aberration on yet another thing!


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## billeames (Jan 17, 2014)

Missa Solemnis is my favorite classical work. Period. I was astounded when I heard it on an LP for the first time at age 28. But opus 131, I have not really paid attention until now. Thanks for bringing it up. (I have Emerson (flashy) and Talich quartet versions)

Bill


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Love the Missa Solemnis, also the Ninth. Can't pick between the two.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Florestan said:


> Love the Missa Solemnis, also the Ninth. Can't pick between the two.


Do we have to? .


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

DavidA said:


> Do we have to? .


So we have to choose among The Missa, the Choral, and the Op. 131? And consign two of them to the flames? This should be interesting.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I plead the 9th.


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## TurnaboutVox (Sep 22, 2013)

I don't see the need to choose between them: they're all great works but very different. 

I have just this morning spotted as I read through the next season's programme that the Hallé under Sir Mark Elder are performing the Missa Solemnis in Manchester next spring so I may try to get a ticket.


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## Weston (Jul 11, 2008)

On a side note, how do people pronounce Solemnis? It's one of those words I've seen written and will someday mispronounce in public, the way I pronounce the word "deSULTory" if I don't stop myself. I don't know my Latin well enough. Is it *SOL*emnis or So*LEM*nis and is the "o" as in solemn/pollen or as in hole?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

I prefer the Missa Solemnis and when I listen to it I prefer Arturo Toscanini's magnificent

Carnegie Hall performance from December 1940 with Zinka Milanov, Bruno Castagna, Jussi 

Björling and Alexander Kipnis. The finest vocal quartet ever to record this magnificent score.

I don't play this too often. I never want to over-expose myself to this great work.


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Weston said:


> On a side note, how do people pronounce Solemnis? It's one of those words I've see written and will someday mispronounce in public, the way I pronounce the word "deSULTory" if I don't stop myself. I don't know my Latin well enough. Is it *SOL*emnis or So*LEM*nis and is the "o" as in solemn/pollen or as in hole?


In these hills the Missa Solemnis comes up frequently in casual conversation, pronounced suh-LEM-niss. There seems to be some confusion about what a 'missa solemnis' is, with guesses ranging from 'solemn mass' to 'frowning female tree-hugger'. It is probably this confusion that is responsible for the frequency. There is no variation in pronunciation though.


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## Novelette (Dec 12, 2012)

Weston said:


> On a side note, how do people pronounce Solemnis? It's one of those words I've see written and will someday mispronounce in public, the way I pronounce the word "deSULTory" if I don't stop myself. I don't know my Latin well enough. Is it *SOL*emnis or So*LEM*nis and is the "o" as in solemn/pollen or as in hole?


Hi Weston, the latter is the correct way in Latin. Words with more than two syllables are very frequently spoken with emphasis laid on the penultimate syllable, specifically when the vowel in that syllable is either a long vowel or is followed by two consonants.

At the very least, this is how Wheelock would have us pronounce it. His really is the best text on Latin, or so say I.


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## Bas (Jul 24, 2012)

I actually have not quite gotten the missa (in the sense that I don't dislike it, but of all the Beethoven pieces I know I am not very fond of it.) Opus 131 is brilliant, as is his ninth - if the performance is right, a lot of ninths tend to be to ecstatic, too wild, too uncontrolled for my taste. I would, with some pain, go for opus 131. Missing the missa, as outcome of this choice, is not a thing I'd be sad about... (Yet. I should and will give the missa another chance soon.)


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

Bas said:


> I actually have not quite gotten the missa (in the sense that I don't dislike it, but of all the Beethoven pieces I know I am not very fond of it.) Opus 131 is brilliant, as is his ninth - if the performance is right, a lot of ninths tend to be to ecstatic, too wild, too uncontrolled for my taste. I would, with some pain, go for opus 131. Missing the missa, as outcome of this choice, is not a thing I'd be sad about... (Yet. I should and will give the missa another chance soon.)


I am not an accomplished choral listener; easily get overloaded. The 9th stays under the limit. I respond to the ecstatic and wild, as long is it's controlled - and the non-singing parts aren't short-changed. 131 is an entirely different experience, don't know why it is in this mix. Any 'ecstatic' around the late quartets is in 132 and 133.

Of course, some other criterium may be the target here, and I've missed it. That's the way it is, heading South.


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## shangoyal (Sep 22, 2013)

All three are great works, it's difficult to choose. But if I only had 15 minutes, I'd listen to the first movement of the 9th symphony.


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