# Classical Music and Erotica



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

I am curious regarding this topic. I haven't found any examples on this on classical music because I am limited in my knowledge or the "eroticism" escapes me.

So, what do you think are those classical music pieces that oozes with eroticism and sensuality?

Who do you think are the composers who disguises their pieces as erotic ones?

Do you think eroticism in classical music is good?



What do you think?


----------



## peeyaj (Nov 17, 2010)

Here, I can think of.


----------



## EarthBoundRules (Sep 25, 2011)

I think everybody would agree that the clarinet solo that opens Gershwin's _Rhapsody in Blue_ is the definition of erotic. Also I can't help but feel like some of the moments in Wagner's operas are quite erotic as well, specifically the love scene in _Tristan und Isolde_ and the Bacchanale in _Tannhäuser_.


----------



## Lukecash12 (Sep 21, 2009)

I can think of a good deal of erotic avante garde music, but that isn't exactly what you were looking for, was it? It could be a period or it could be a reference towards all of our geeky music.


----------



## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

Well, I could name sections of Strauss's _Sinfonia domestica_ but, hey, why not go the whole hog with this:
Luciano Berio _Visage_


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Well, I could name sections of Strauss's _Sinfonia domestica_ but, hey, why not go the whole hog with this:
> Luciano Berio _Visage_


That is just so strange. Stockhausen, Xenakis and Cage seem to be the primary wipping boys around here, but to me Berio's 'sound art' seems far more bizarre and less musical than any of the aforementioned composers. I am not trying to say I don't like him, just that I don't understand any of the sounds he produced.


----------



## Jeremy Marchant (Mar 11, 2010)

tdc said:


> ...to me Berio's 'sound art' seems far more bizarre and less musical than any of the aforementioned composers. I am not trying to say I don't like him, just that I don't understand any of the sounds he produced.


Well, here's a starter on _Visage_.

This is an Italianate concerto (for voice and electronics, rather than violin and orchestra) just as much as any by Vivaldi. It's even in three clearly defined movements. As you might expect from a successor of Puccini, Verdi and many other Italians who focussed on the voice as the carrier of drama, it is about vocalising. And, at one level, it is quite clear what the drama is - hence the inclusion in this thread. (The soloist, Cathy Berberian, was the wife of the composer at the time.)

The vocalist utters many sounds, but only one real word. (That word is _parole_ (Italian for "word") and it appears twice - once between the first and second movements, and again between the second and third.) I report that on the basis of the composer's notes - I am not an expert on every language on the planet and I am sure there are other words in there, by accident, it's rather that the _intention _was that there should only be one word (and it does rather clearly and obviously act as a signal).

You might say that, at another level, _Visage _is about finding language, a means of expression. In the first, short movement, the soloist discovers phonemes - fragments of words - and begins to experiment with them, the movement culminating entirely conventionally in a climax before Berio wittily cuts away with a laugh before ending quickly. The first _parole_, and thus the first word to be heard, is at 3:23.

The second movement is broadly the slow movement (as you would expect). I've always found this movement rather droll in the unceasing torrent of invented words and which Cathy Berberian nevertheless manages to invest with a huge range of emotions and, if I may say, meaning.

One characteristic of the work as a whole is the intense way that the soloist responds to the electronics and, to a lesser extent, the tutti reflects or contradicts the soloist's mood - just like in any baroque or classical concerto. Another feature is the extent to which it is packed with incident - like the electronic birdsong (9:41) which acts as the coda of the second movement (the second _parole _is at 10:01).

In the third movement, the soloist's 'words' are strung into phrases and there seems to me to be a richer, more complex interaction between soloist and tutti. For example, the passage starting at 12:40 in which the soloist appears to be being chased around the stage by the tutti, the climax of which is the climax of the work as a whole. This segués to an unexpected second part of the movement, a post-coital, slow reflective passage (starting 13:47) in which the soloist gradually drops away (falls asleep?) so that, at 18:10, the tutti background is left to itself and wells up magnificently for a gorgeous (if slightly indulgent) coda.

It's interesting to note that, for all the electronic sounds in the tutti, the soloist isn't electronically modified - beyond a bit of echo very occasionally - and the degree of multitracking of the voice is limited. It's almost as if it is a live soloist performing the work (actually, the vocal track was made in the studio, cut and paste meticulously from recordings of Cathy Berberian improvising).


----------



## sah (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.talkclassical.com/8564-most-erotic-piece.html[/url]
http://www.talkclassical.com/2763-erotic-works.html

Debussy's _Chansons de Bilitis _ should be more erotic.

What about Ravel's _Don Quichotte à Dulcinée_ (just the two first songs)?


----------



## neoshredder (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah Impressionism in general seems to lean that way. Renaissance is a band that used that type of sound for erotic prog rock. It was a girl singer.  So yeah Debussy is up there. Mozart and Chopin probably leaning that way to. Usually eroticism is the last thing I'm looking for when it comes to classical music.


----------



## sybilvane (Aug 11, 2011)

The first movement of Beethoven's Kreutzer Sonata for sure.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

The *Berio* sounds right, esp. his _*Sequenza for solo voice*_, written with his wife *Cathy Berberian* in mind.

Another more contemporary one is *Dutilleux's* _*Cello Concerto, Tout un monde lointain*_. Inspired by *Baudelaire's poetry* (_The Flowers of Evil_), showing the ecstasy but also darker side of the erotic & intimate, etc. Some massive climaxes in that, make of them what you will.

*Ravel* makes sense to me as well, his Spanish flavoured works obviously (_Bolero, Rhapsodie-Espagnole_), but also _*Gaspard de la nuit*,_ the _*ondine*_ movement where this water siren is calling the guy to frolick in the water with her, but he holds back, he knows he can be pulled under the water and be killed. The old mix of sex & death there.

There's many in opera, apart from those shown above (which I don't really like, but anyway). Heaps in *Bizet's Carmen* alone, eg. the *Habanera*, where she is warning the guys that you will have me at your peril (eg. be prepared for heartbreak, bigtime, which is often a part of love, no?). I think maybe guys naturally like a girl who dances on tables .


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jeremy Marchant said:


> Well, here's a starter on _Visage_.
> 
> This is an Italianate concerto (for voice and electronics, rather than violin and orchestra) just as much as any by Vivaldi. It's even in three clearly defined movements. As you might expect from a successor of Puccini, Verdi and many other Italians who focussed on the voice as the carrier of drama, it is about vocalising. And, at one level, it is quite clear what the drama is - hence the inclusion in this thread. (The soloist, Cathy Berberian, was the wife of the composer at the time.)
> 
> ...


This IS a most brilliant, intelligent and moving piece of music: This post of yours is Excellent, I've never analyzed this great piece. I would add, just as in some of the most intense of Schubert or others, it is a replete monodrama of profound emotional import for the listener. This composer was a master, I 'place' him as one of the greats 'of all time.' Only time will tell, of course. The complete lack of connection with contemporary music on the part of a vast portion of the populace gives me an ongoing sense of despair: so many do not 'get' any music other than the most 'old-fashioned' sort, from post 1890-1900, and are completely out of sync with their own era, let alone totally out of touch with their own time. Thanks for this wonderfully written critique / infomercial, Lol.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

Without going anywhere near any literal content, or the 'Musical exoticism' of the Bacchanale in Saint-Saen's Samson et Delilah, for example, there is this about music - of any period - altogether.

Music is a sensate art. It is produced by vibrating the air all around us. It touches us, directly, from top to toe and reaches us even, through our clothing.

Music enters our consciousness through the two orifices of our ears.

No matter how 'cerebral' the composer or how 'intellectual' the aesthetic, once it is being played and listened to.. well,
I really don't know how much more sensuous or intimate it could get


----------



## violadude (May 2, 2011)




----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

PetrB said:


> This IS a most brilliant, intelligent and moving piece of music: This post of yours is Excellent, I've never analyzed this great piece. I would add, just as in some of the most intense of Schubert or others, it is a replete monodrama of profound emotional import for the listener. This composer was a master, I 'place' him as one of the greats 'of all time.' Only time will tell, of course. *The complete lack of connection with contemporary music on the part of a vast portion of the populace gives me an ongoing sense of despair*: so many do not 'get' any music other than the most 'old-fashioned' sort, from post 1890-1900, and are completely out of sync with their own era, let alone totally out of touch with their own time. Thanks for this wonderfully written critique / infomercial, Lol.


I agree that was a great post by Jeremy Marchant. Your post has me wondering...do you think composer's like Berio would be pleased if everyone instantly liked their work? When I listen to a piece such as _Visage_, I can't help but feel that to be somewhat shocking and cutting edge is exactly what the composer is going for...those two things generally aren't really compatible with mass public acceptance.


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

tdc said:


> I agree that was a great post by Jeremy Marchant. Your post has me wondering...do you think composer's like Berio would be pleased if everyone instantly liked their work? When I listen to a piece such as _Visage_, I can't help but feel that to be somewhat shocking and cutting edge is exactly what the composer is going for...those two things aren't really compatible with mass public acceptance.


You can't say those things here. You'll have the thought police here in a flash. Bit of a can of worms turning this into one of _those_ threads again. Would be a pity, imo.

Anyway, I think Berio is not all shocking or pushing the limits as that piece. Eg. his set of folk songs is one of the most popular contemporary song-cycles. His song cycle, "Chamber Music" based on words of James Joyce, is quite melodic and has a faint "Celtic" feel. I haven't listened to a lot of his music, but some of what I have come across has been relatively listenable, accessible for the average listener, I'd think.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Sid James said:


> You can't say those things here. You'll have the thought police here in a flash. Bit of a can of worms turning this into one of _those_ threads again. Would be a pity, imo.
> 
> Anyway, I think Berio is not all shocking or pushing the limits as that piece. Eg. his set of folk songs is one of the most popular contemporary song-cycles. His song cycle, "Chamber Music" based on words of James Joyce, is quite melodic and has a faint "Celtic" feel. I haven't listened to a lot of his music, but some of what I have come across has been relatively listenable, accessible for the average listener, I'd think.


Fair enough keep in mind I am just posing a question - I haven't come to any definite conclusions myself. But your post (saying Berio is quite popular) seems to contradict PetrB's post a little bit. So which is it? Is Berio popular as a composer or not? Or is it in between? I wonder what the right amount of popularity would be for such a composer...


----------



## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

^^Berio isn't really popular here, as far as I can tell, but maybe he's more played in Northern Hemisphere?

I wasn't saying he's popular here & can't comment on other places, I'm saying he's accessible, or some of his works are. The _Chamber Music_ song cycle I posted a link to in my previous post is one example.

I'm saying things like that and his _Sinfonia _are not more "difficult" than other composers of his time (to me, and I'm not really into ultra extreme avant-garde things - eg. I don't like Stockhausen's Helicopter piece, but I like other less extreme things of his).

So he's in the league of say Schnittke, Lutoslawski or Henze, there is some link to tradition in at least a good deal of Berio's music as far as is my limited experience of some of his major works.

Of course to conservative dinosaur listeners of the type who walked out on Mahler's 9th symphony here last year, of course to people like that Berio and most things after 1900 are like way beyond the pale. I don't mind where people stand but I don't like people who are rude like that.


----------



## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Sid James said:


> ^^Berio isn't really popular here, as far as I can tell, but maybe he's more played in Northern Hemisphere?
> 
> I wasn't saying he's popular here & can't comment on other places, I'm saying he's accessible, or some of his works are. The _Chamber Music_ song cycle I posted a link to in my previous post is one example.
> 
> ...


You have some good points. I think for whatever reason I haven't clicked with the Berio pieces that have been posted here in the past but there are works of his I'd enjoy. The link you posted sounds interesting and I just came across this on youtube which seems to my ears quite decent and reasonably accessible.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdc said:


> I agree that was a great post by Jeremy Marchant. Your post has me wondering...do you think composer's like Berio would be pleased if everyone instantly liked their work? When I listen to a piece such as _Visage_, I can't help but feel that to be somewhat shocking and cutting edge is exactly what the composer is going for...those two things generally aren't really compatible with mass public acceptance.


The notion of somehow being an artist who is only understood by a few is most puzzling to me. Of course they want their work to be liked, and by as many as possible. There is that whole integrity thing of any artist making first what they can and to satisfy themselves, but that is mistaken as indulgent - the opposite is true: artists are harder on themselves than any critic could dream of being. They earnestly strive, with intensity, for the highest integrity, excellence, and "perfection" in most all they make. After that, don't you think it some odd pathology that would have them going about smug that only a few listeners 'got it?'

Very peculiar notion.


----------



## PetrB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdc said:


> You have some good points. I think for whatever reason I haven't clicked with the Berio pieces that have been posted here in the past but there are works of his I'd enjoy. The link you posted sounds interesting and I just came across this on youtube which seems to my ears quite decent and reasonably accessible.


Start with this Brief, lyrical, somewhat magical enchantment feeling piece: it is both serial and neoclassical - by a young Berio:
Concertino for Violin, Clarinet, Strings, harp and Celesta


----------



## superhorn (Mar 23, 2010)

Well, there's Beethoven's "Erotica " symphony . I kid you not, many years ago in a newspaper's radio listings, Beethoven's symphony no 3 in e flat major was listed as the "erotica' symphony by mistake .


----------



## SuperTonic (Jun 3, 2010)

When I saw this thread I started thinking of pieces/composers who would fit and I was struck by the fact that most of them were French. And looking through the responses in the thread so far, the French do seem to be disproportionately represented. 
It is not something that I have ever really considered before, but sensuality does seem to be a common trait in much French music over the past 2 centuries. Most of the major French composers from the Romantic and modern eras have been mentioned already in this thread: Saint-Saens, Bizet, Debussy, Ravel, Dutilleux, I would also add Faure and Messiaen who have not been mentioned yet.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

Music is perhaps the most exotic of all the arts and abounds with eroticism.
There are too many examples to even consider as a whole but here are a few.
Strauss' "Symphonia Domestica" has been mentioned and is graphic to say the least. But then if we look at "Heldenleben" and the section headed "The Hero's Helpmate" we have more of the same.
Massenet's opera "Thais" is the story of a monk, Athenael, who falls for a courtesan (and we know what that means)
Thais and spends the whole opera having naughty dreams regarding her. It all comes to a bad end of course!
Gounod's "Faust" is eroticism including satanism.
Berg's "Lulu" is extremely erotic and particularly unpleasant.
Kurt Weill's "Dreigroschenoper" (Threepenny Opera) caused Bob Dylan to say: "I was aroused straightaway by the raw intensity of the songs."
Conchita Supervia singing Spanish songs!!!!!
"Songs of the Auvergne", contains plenty of eroticism.
Schubert's lied "Gretchen Am Spinnrade".This is a curiously unwholesome process of self-seduction, almost of auto-eroticism (with the compulsiveness of the spinning wheel).
So it's everywhere you look.


----------



## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Well, when I was 18 my girlfriend loved classical (nearly) as much as I did then and our favorite was Rachmaninov and well, we would kinda...yeah. Maybe whoever redid the cover from this:










To this:










Well, whoever changed it must have agreed there was some eroticism in there. Luckily, it is the same brilliant recording or set of recordings, rather, that are the best ever renditions of each of these works for piano and orchestra. If you don't own this double-disc yet, buy it. You will never regret the decision to acquire the most amazing recordings of some of the most amazing compositions.


----------



## moody (Nov 5, 2011)

When were you ever 18? Also anybody who cares about Rachmaninoff should have these ,if not they should be ashamed. I think that you were supposed to find the erotic stuff inside the music, but perhaps you're erotic enough already.


----------



## NightHawk (Nov 3, 2011)

TRISTAN AND ISOLDE - from the opening motives the entire score is frankly 'wet' with sex and desire. (If someone already posted this obvious work, apologies, I read most of the posts, but not all).


----------

