# Another false dawn or are the young really getting into classical?



## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...classical-music-to-escape-scala-radio-station

Classical arrangements of taylor Swift apparently prove the young generation are moving away from the noise of modern music to classical.

No this is not a joke thread.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

False dawn. Young people are increasingly amoral and dumber than ever.

Video game/movie soundtracks and classical versions of popular songs? Give me a break.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Great idea. Hope the radio station succeeds. Terrific cellist... greatly enjoyed his performance of Swift's _Blank Space_... Looking forward to hearing more classical of what they're into, at least it's positive and constructive rather than the attitude of the sourpusses who have nothing better to do but carp and complain about the young. I don't think so... I don't think they're any stupider than previous generations. Look at some of the unimaginative ignorant leadership in the world they have to put up with.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Red Terror said:


> False dawn. Young people are increasingly amoral and dumber than ever.
> 
> Video game/movie soundtracks and classical versions of popular songs? Give me a break.


Things is going to hell in a handbasket, I tell you! It was different when I was young! (repeat each generation)


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

stomanek said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...classical-music-to-escape-scala-radio-station
> 
> Classical arrangements of taylor Swift apparently prove the young generation are moving away from the noise of modern music to classical.
> 
> No this is not a joke thread.


This looks very encouraging.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

What I read in that article is that the term classical music has become further devalued and that some of the young are into smooth music rather than the music of rebellion and angst that stir most generations. I am not sure that any of that is a good thing and I don't define music as classical simply because it is played on instruments that classical composers wrote for.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

stomanek said:


> the young generation are moving away from the noise of modern music to classical.


that is a disturbing sign, because this might cause influx of uninlightened audience, who possess no knowledge and only want to be pleased, who therefore are easily swayed by the politics of today's classical music presentation in the media.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I think young people ARE into classical music, but there is often a sense of "fake enthusiasm" that accompanies this.

For instance:
... many young people use classical music to try to make themselves appear more cultured or to please their own egos (this goes for listening, performance, and composition). These people are not very good at and are typically not very knowledgeable about classical music.
... many young musicians enjoy the music they play on their instruments but do not seek broader listening or enjoyment of classical music, instead favoring other genres to listen to when they're not performing.
... like Enthusiasm said, many people are into "smooth music" that may superficially sound classical (video game music comes to mind), but this interest does not always translate well into enjoyment into more serious works.
... many people will listen to a few classical pieces (or composers) for "the feels", but do not have much of a desire to further explore classical music.

That being said, these (especially the latter three) are not necessarily bad things, and there are MANY other young people (myself included!) that have a deep passion and true love for exploring classical music of all kinds! Besides, it's always been (well, for a long time anyway) more of an "old person's" hobby anyway, right?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> False dawn. Young people are increasingly amoral and dumber than ever.
> 
> Video game/movie soundtracks and classical versions of popular songs? Give me a break.


Try contributing something meaningful to the discussion instead of just dismissing "young people" in a manner which says more about you than it does about them.

I wish that _The Guardian _had been able to publish links to the research, or have I overlooked it? Looking for the research, I found this instead, which opens the usual Pandora's Box of opinions. If "Uncertainty Leads to Pleasure", it's unlikely to be in an "escape" context...

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00979/full

Further reading confirms that, like Classic FM, Scala Radio will define "classical" broadly, but is expected to play "classics" including Holst and Mozart.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...ns-new-classical-radio-station-after-bbc-exit

As for the idea that "young people" want to escape the noise of modern life, that's hardly a surprise - so do "old people".


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist said:


> I think young people ARE into classical music, but there is, by and large, a sense of "fake enthusiasm" that accompanies this.


Really? Why would young people (I'll have to give up on the scare quotes) be any different now than when I was a young person, enjoying classical music for its own sake and not for some other ulterior reason?


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

I'm more interested in whether you think about the state of jazz enthusiasm among young people.

Or if you think that there are enough enthusiastic musicians (and listeners) to keep rock alive, even if it won't be mainstream.


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## BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist (Jan 13, 2019)

MacLeod said:


> Really? Why would young people (I'll have to give up on the scare quotes) be any different now than when I was a young person, enjoying classical music for its own sake and not for some other ulterior reason?


Again, I don't think this is a rule, but it is an observable phenomenon. As to the reasons, it'll take a while to answer. When I have time, I'll get back to you. I will admit, a fair bit of my evidence is anecdotal.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

Red Terror said:


> False dawn. Young people are increasingly amoral and dumber than ever.
> 
> Video game/movie soundtracks and classical versions of popular songs? Give me a break.


I doubt it. I teach students and they are not that much different. And the older generation have no moral right to lecture the young about morality. The world that they created and that they are responsible for - nazism, communism, red terror, brexit, election of Trump etc. - this is work of older generations/older people. Where is the superior morality in that?

The problem that I perceive with the young is the negative influence of the digital technologies on their development. But can you blame them?


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I doubt it. I teach students and they are not that much different. And the older generation have no moral right to lecture the young about morality. The world that they created and that they are responsible for - nazism, communism, red terror, brexit, election of Trump etc. - this is work of older generations/older people. Where is the superior morality in that?
> 
> The problem that I perceive with the young is the negative influence of the digital technologies on their development. But can you blame them?


BREXIT :lol:

I agree though - one could even quote scripture (even despite my agnosticism):

Romans 3:10 
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;


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## larold (Jul 20, 2017)

I read the link; appears to me to be the beginning of a new radio station. Seems quite a stretch to believe this is some kind of trend among young people. 

Over on our side of the Atlantic there was optimism a few years back because there was a new magazine about CM -- Life With Classical Music -- full of stories about performers and music, reviews and ads. It went on about a year or two then changed its name to Life with something else, popular culture or something. Then the content changed. I just searched for it and can't find it at all now.

We'll see if what happens here results in any kind of change.


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

janxharris said:


> BREXIT :lol:
> 
> I agree though - one could even quote scripture (even despite my agnosticism):
> 
> ...


I recently read the whole Bible and the morality in the Old Testament is crazy. You can read about murder, thumb cutting, eye gouging or passages such as a travelling couple was afraid entering villages because they woman was fair and they were afraid that the villagers would murder the husband, in order to be able to take the wife. There are descriptions of crazy religious cults such as Moloch and Baal, which required children sacrifices. And the Yahweh cult was not much better. Yahweh ordering his chosen people to plunder whole cities and kill all its inhabitants, because they did not obey "the command" of this petty god. Yahweh testing his prophet by ordering him to sacrifice his own child etc. 
so were the older generations more moral than people today? I doubt it. The grass was greener and the sun shone more brightly when we were young


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

It's disappointing that several comments above indicate that classical music ought to be enjoyed only in a certain way and only for certain reasons. IMO, the existence of these attitudes is one reason why the art form will find it difficult to emerge from its current niche status.

EDIT:
All musical genres are listened to for a range of reasons. They all have their cognoscenti, their posers, their superficial listeners, and it's all OK. However, if you're a small genre trying to expand then it's in your interest to put that stuff aside and be welcoming. Yes, even if that means Taylor Bieber covers on a cello. Just get over it, a proportion of those listeners will leave Bieber for Beethoven.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Jacck said:


> I recently read the whole Bible and the morality in the Old Testament is crazy. You can read about murder, thumb cutting, eye gouging or passages such as a travelling couple was afraid entering villages because they woman was fair and they were afraid that the villagers would murder the husband, in order to be able to take the wife. There are descriptions of crazy religious cults such as Moloch and Baal, which required children sacrifices. And the Yahweh cult was not much better. Yahweh ordering his chosen people to plunder whole cities and kill all its inhabitants, because they did not obey "the command" of this petty god. Yahweh testing his prophet by ordering him to sacrifice his own child etc.
> so were the older generations more moral than people today? I doubt it. The grass was greener and the sun shone more brightly when we were young


You raise many of the same issues I and others have done. Unfortunately, it cannot be discussed here.

I think the Romans 3:10 is bang on - so no, I don't think previous generations were morally superior.

He who hath no sin cast the first stone..........


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

fliege said:


> It's disappointing that several comments above indicate that classical music ought to be enjoyed only in a certain way and only for certain reasons. IMO, the existence of these attitudes is one reason why the art form will find it difficult to emerge from its current niche status.
> 
> EDIT:
> All musical genres are listened to for a range of reasons. They all have their cognoscenti, their posers, their superficial listeners, and it's all OK. However, if you're a small genre trying to expand then it's in your interest to put that stuff aside and be welcoming. Yes, even if that means Taylor Bieber covers on a cello. Just get over it, a proportion of those listeners will leave Bieber for Beethoven.


Yes indeed...........................


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

fliege said:


> the art form will find it difficult to emerge from its current niche status.


well, maybe niche is a good thing as such?



fliege said:


> if you're a small genre trying to expand


why should classical try to expand?


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

not to mention calling it a 'small genre' huh... classical is a *cosmic* genre.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> well, maybe niche is a good thing as such?
> 
> why should classical try to expand?


Last I heard orchestras in general lose £300 per concert.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

Zhdanov said:


> not to mention calling it a 'small genre' huh... classical is a *cosmic* genre.


Sorry - it is a small genre - small audience, that is


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## fliege (Nov 7, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> well, maybe niche is a good thing as such?
> 
> why should classical try to expand?


Yes, niche can be good. Poor choice of words, maybe. However, it would be better if orchestras were popular enough to support themselves and not rely on external funding, such as lottery money. It would also be good, IMO, if it was not widely considered boring, "posh", or dead music. If this state of affairs persists then unfortunate things could happen to the art form in the longer term. For those reasons it's worth "expanding", and by that I mean that it's worth attracting more people in their 20s and 30s. Classical music makes up 1% of music sales now. If that number was 2 or 3% and the increase was made up of a younger demographic, then likely that's all that's needed.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Jacck said:


> I recently read the whole Bible and the morality in the Old Testament is crazy. You can read about murder, thumb cutting, eye gouging or passages such as a travelling couple was afraid entering villages because they woman was fair and they were afraid that the villagers would murder the husband, in order to be able to take the wife. There are descriptions of crazy religious cults such as Moloch and Baal, which required children sacrifices. And the Yahweh cult was not much better. Yahweh ordering his chosen people to plunder whole cities and kill all its inhabitants, because they did not obey "the command" of this petty god. Yahweh testing his prophet by ordering him to sacrifice his own child etc.
> so were the older generations more moral than people today? I doubt it. The grass was greener and the sun shone more brightly when we were young


Yes the OT is pretty well screwed up and to think most believers probably think it is a blueprint for human morality just because they have not read it critically like you have.

BTW you missed out god's instructions to jews on how to punish the slaves they kept.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Last I heard orchestras in general lose £300 per concert.


so what?.. money is a mere paper... the world is about *projects*, they are the real value here.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Sorry - it is a small genre - small audience, that is


speak for yourself please... you're small, but i'm big.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> so what?.. money is a mere paper...


Without that paper the concert won't happen. It's a shame that it comes from outside funding.



> the world is about *projects*, they are the real value here.


I'm not following.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

fliege said:


> it would be better if orchestras were popular enough to support themselves and not rely on external funding, such as lottery money.


but don't we have the ruling elites to handle the matters?



fliege said:


> It would also be good, IMO, if it was not widely considered boring, "posh", or dead music.


if not, then how do we keep youngsters and loiters away?

how do we prize ourselves for being part of the conversation between historical elites?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

janxharris said:


> I'm not following.


Neither you nor anyone else here...possibly not Zhdanov either!


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

MacLeod said:


> Neither you nor anyone else here...


obviously, explanation needed here... money and even gold are *fiat* values initially intended to control the population, whereas true values are projects, ranging from creation of a new religion, a state, a empire of any kind and, also, destruction of these if necessary; it comes as a result of using raw or soft power, but the basis is the will of elites and simple tools of coercion or indoctrination; fiat values come only later.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> obviously, explanation needed here... money and even gold are *fiat* values initially intended to control the population, whereas true values are projects, ranging from creation of a new religion, a state, a empire of any kind and, also, destruction of these if necessary; it comes as a result of using raw or soft power, but the basis is the will of elites and simple tools of coercion or indoctrination; fiat values come only later.


Well concerts still need money or the equivalent.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2019)

Zhdanov said:


> obviously, explanation needed here... money and even gold are *fiat* values initially intended to control the population, whereas true values are projects, ranging from creation of a new religion, a state, a empire of any kind and, also, destruction of these if necessary; it comes as a result of using raw or soft power, but the basis is the will of elites and simple tools of coercion or indoctrination; fiat values come only later.


Thanks for that...but it was more the general direction of your...'argument' that I couldn't follow, and it's relevance to the thread topic.


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

janxharris said:


> Well concerts still need money or the equivalent.


well money is printed at will like they do with the dollar and no problem.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Zhdanov said:


> well money is printed at will like they do with the dollar and no problem.


?????????????????????????????????


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## Zhdanov (Feb 16, 2016)

janxharris said:


> ?????????????????????????????????


okay, actually there are problems, it only depends on who is to have them.

let rock, pop and jazz perish, but must support classical.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

A) True classical music will never die because there will alway be an audience, however small, that appreciates the unique things it brings to the table.

B) While there's money to be made, there will always be marketing attempts to classicalize popular music -- or popularize classical -- none of which have any real connection to what CM is. In the 60s and 70s there were Top 40 versions of the Ode to Joy, and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring, Beethoven's Fifth, the first minute and a half of Also Sprach Zarathustra; every record company simultaneouly put out pastiche classical "Greatest Hits" albums; there was "Hooked on Classics" and its ilk which put a beat behind classical "tunes;" various rock bands (Emerson Lake and Palmer) quoted some classical themes. Some companies made a lot money. Very few classical converts were made. But in all ages, people who were meant to enjoy CM found a way to get to it.

C.) Don't worry.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

"Almost half (45%) of young people saying they see classical music as an escape from the noise of modern life." Obviously referring to 4'33". John Cage finally rises from the ashes.


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## Phil loves classical (Feb 8, 2017)

Overall it can't hurt with these Classical arrangements of pop music. Artistically, I don't think they will help listeners appreciate Schoenberg, or even Mahler. My Classical FM radio station plays only the most catchy and light sort of Classical music, movie themes, and a lot of times bad arrangements of well known Classical themes, as well as these pop tunes, and includes Josh Groban. No one requests to hear Stravinsky. But socially, I think it's a good sign. It doesn't take great Art to make people look within themselves, just what is relatable.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Dumbest thread ever. 

"Kids are stupid"

"That's not helpful. Do some research. I doubt that kids now are different from kids of the past"

Let us pray none of those kids ever see this barfage.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Zhdanov said:


> that is a disturbing sign, because this might cause influx of uninlightened audience, who possess no knowledge and only want to be pleased, who therefore are easily swayed by the politics of today's classical music presentation in the media.


I agree in general. Who wants a youth generation listening to corny, happy "mood music"? The more pleased people are, the less rigorous they are in their thinking and the more pliable to persuasion. There is a stack of psychological research to substantiate it. This is not something I'd like to see in any new generation (or any generation).

"The youth" is too often underestimated by older generations. As if they are all a homogenous bunch of mindless, young fools. I don't care what they listen to so long as they are thinking critically.

The 'comfortable' variety of music doesn't automatically equal moral or intellectual value. In fact this sort of music has been shown to bring out the worst in people; like a lack of compassion and inflated self worth.


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I think everyone who likes the rapping music should be given the Ludovico Technique, ala A Clockwork Orange. In which they must listen to the rapping music while watching the US Congress trying to solve shutdown.


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## eugeneonagain (May 14, 2017)

Remember Alex's predilection is for Beethoven, not "the rapping music". The youth didn't vote for the clowns who initiated the ridiculous, third-world shutdown.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

We younger generation are not all hopelsss. I blame poor parent skill and media for the decline; In Deutschland there is some who are ashamed of our culture. I see this to talking with my British friend at school saddens me so very much.

I am trying to get him to join me for Wagner soon but he has some strange thoughts of Wagner.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Zhdanov said:


> obviously, explanation needed here... money and even gold are *fiat* values initially intended to control the population, whereas true values are projects, ranging from creation of a new religion, a state, a empire of any kind and, also, destruction of these if necessary; it comes as a result of using raw or soft power, but the basis is the will of elites and simple tools of coercion or indoctrination; fiat values come only later.


Like the then new religion off Soviet Communism Lenin created?


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Like previous generations, adventurous, creative "kids" will rarely take the path you want them to. They will follow their inner compass, the quest to find their own turf, in whatever they do. It may all be in their heads but that's how culture works. When someone young today discovers classical music, maybe it's through hearing something you never heard. Some will leave all you who doubt them behind before you can blink, and soon you might to know what THEY are listening to. Music is not food and we all not have to like potatoes. Classical music is now realizing the international, universal appreciation that was once confined to Europeans, and it's going to receive fresh infusions in the process. 

But, but.... Beethoven!!! you may scream... forever and ever...


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## Ingélou (Feb 10, 2013)

Since fashions tend to come and go, I don't see why every so often a younger generation wouldn't find it cool to go for more traditional things. So this won't be a false dawn - it will just gradually turn into sunset and the day will have to start all over again.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

I say false dawn is fake news.


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## LezLee (Feb 21, 2014)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...games-prompts-huge-rise-millennial-listeners/


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## DaveM (Jun 29, 2015)

Don’t forget China and Asians in general. From the New York Times:

‘China, with an estimated 30 million piano students and 10 million violin students, is on an opposite trajectory. Tests to enter the top conservatories now attract nearly 200,000 students a year, compared with a few thousand annually in the 1980s, according to the Chinese Musicians Association.’

And the above was from 2007! China is now producing, by far, more pianos and violins than any other country.

Also, in 2012, 14% of Asian-Americans 18-24 years of age reported that they had attended a classical concert in the previous year.

Btw, Asians have been focused on 19th century music more than not. They are not seeking out Ferneyhough et al...


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

LezLee said:


> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...games-prompts-huge-rise-millennial-listeners/


I am not a millenial, but come from the generation X/Y, and I experienced video games during my adolescence. I was originally into punk/rock/bigbeat under the peer influence, but the thing that absolutely hooked me into orchestral music was the soundtrack by Jeremy Soule for a Star Wars video game




from there I went to movie soundtracks (mainly Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams etc) and from there to classical music.


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Jacck said:


> I am not a millenial, but come from the generation X/Y, and I experienced video games during my adolescence. I was originally into punk/rock/bigbeat under the peer influence, but the thing that absolutely hooked me into orchestral music was the soundtrack by Jeremy Soule for a Star Wars video game
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And therefore grew from child to adult, simply by discovering classical music, some would have us believe... :lol:


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

DaveM said:


> Don't forget China and Asians in general. From the New York Times:
> 
> 'China, with an estimated 30 million piano students and 10 million violin students, is on an opposite trajectory. Tests to enter the top conservatories now attract nearly 200,000 students a year, compared with a few thousand annually in the 1980s, according to the Chinese Musicians Association.'
> 
> ...


Now if only China could produce a government that allows free expression and doesn't execute 5000 citizens a year it will be infinitely more important than any economic progress.

As for Taylor Swift with strings? Whatever floats yer boat, kids!


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

DaveM said:


> Don't forget China and Asians in general. From the New York Times:
> 
> 'China, with an estimated 30 million piano students and 10 million violin students, is on an opposite trajectory. Tests to enter the top conservatories now attract nearly 200,000 students a year, compared with a few thousand annually in the 1980s, according to the Chinese Musicians Association.'
> 
> ...


I am a lover of Japanese culture both traditional and modern. I had the privilege of going to Japan two years ago now, we saw several classical concerts and two solo recitals in our time there.

Japanese people do not talk in the street from what I have seen yet I was asked to play something on my violin by an elder man in the street. Soon many people stopped to listen after we took selfies and I was given free melon bread. Was strange but good experience. Asia has higher appreciation of our past culture than we do in my opinion.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

KenOC said:


> Things is going to hell in a handbasket, I tell you! It was different when I was young! (repeat each generation)


It has gotten worse. I was born in 1980 and I can see the difference today.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> It has gotten worse. I was born in 1980 and I can see the difference today.


I am worried for this censorship in Germany (possibly EU & USA also). It was in the newspaper before Weihnachten that certain Orchestra will remove famous composers. Why? Too much european race and too much males.

I would love to be a composer but none will reach Wagner, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart et al level. As much as I would like female, black or homosexual to get a chance you should not ignore history for gender and race reasons. Where is the merit?

Father was angry he knows of schools less prestigious than my own who rewrite history now. Will not ever end well sadly we should remember.

I think this puts young people off trying to get the boy I like to take me to see Der Ring des Nibelungen I already have tickets. He has the idea Wagner is "Nazi" I ask how can this be when he passed on in 1883!


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

"And now, a little of the old Ludwig van..."


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## philoctetes (Jun 15, 2017)

Red Terror said:


> It has gotten worse. I was born in 1980 and I can see the difference today.


Everything is economics.Those were already bad times and many would say that Fed intervention made them even worse, or better, depending on your bias. Re: Paul Volker...

Compare the price of recorded music then to now. Or all the music online we can hear. We're getting a pretty good deal. I 1980 a collection was more expensive to build, relative to inflation.

"Real" assets are another story. And the constantly increasing price spread between asset classes has a cost for all of us, in the labor sector, where wages never rise...


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

philoctetes said:


> "And now, a little of the old Ludwig van..."


I Love Kubrick!


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

eugeneonagain said:


> Remember Alex's predilection is for Beethoven, not "the rapping music". The youth didn't vote for the clowns who initiated the ridiculous, third-world shutdown.


True. I change that. Congress should be given the treatment.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

stomanek said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...classical-music-to-escape-scala-radio-station
> 
> Classical arrangements of taylor Swift apparently prove the young generation are moving away from the noise of modern music to classical.
> 
> No this is not a joke thread.


It sounds like a good initiative, and a logical extension of the success of concerts featuring film music played live while the film is being played above the orchestra. Australia is similar to the UK in this regard, these types of concerts have been helping maintain the financial viability of orchestras for some time now. A friend of mine went to the concert where Howard Shore conducted his score for Lord of the Rings and noted how the hall was fully booked, and there was a mix of ages compared to the usual sea of grey at traditional concerts.

I would imagine that this new radio station would not only play film and crossover type music, but also a variety of classical which is in some ways similar and accessible to the target audience. I can imagine that those who enjoy certain types of film music would easily take to the classics in the canon which inspired it. Take the example of Howard Shore, things like Carmina Burana are not too far off. Some of my own favourite film scores are from vintage movies, for example Lawrence of Arabia. The composer Jarre was clearly influenced by Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade. So this is along the lines of what I'm thinking.

I'm not too bothered about dumbing down because ever since the 19th century, when a broader public began consuming it, the most profitable music (even for great composers like Brahms, Dvorak, Elgar) has been what is now known as salon music. They where more or less the equivalent of pop songs arranged in crossover style for classical instruments.

Viability involves reaching out to the broadest amount of people possible, but that doesn't preclude the creation of more highbrow, for want of a better word, music. The two have always gone together, and what's more I don't see film scores as lowbrow at all. In time they may become the nearest equivalent of the symphonies and concertos of the past. Greats of the 20th century already produced them (e.g. Shostakovich, Walton, Korngold) and some largely devoted their careers to them (e.g. Rota, Williams, Goldsmith).

If the classical music industry as a whole adapts to the realities today then I think that there's a fair chance of it thriving. Keep in ming that growth has to be sustainable, so its not just about bigger is better. The worst example is what has occured in the USA and has only in the past decade or so began to be openly discussed. The dichotomy of orchestras being not-for-profit organisations who have conductors on 2 to 3 million dollar salaries, the entourages of hangers on dressed up as consultants, the creative cooking of the books by beancounters, the stranglehold of orchestra boards and unions, and so on. Even if every seat of every concert in the USA had a bum on it, its likely that these deep structural problems would block any progress. I hope that for China's sake it doesn't end up going down this same path and failing to harness the possibilities emerging there. As usual, time will tell.


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

LezLee said:


> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...games-prompts-huge-rise-millennial-listeners/


 Excellent article. Excerpt:

"Other reasons given for the popularity of classical music among young people include an increased awareness of mental health, and as a way to escape from the ever-increasing hustle and bustle of modern life."

I believe that any number of people could easily say the same thing-that it's a very healthy and healing activity for the mind and body. It's a universal experience for those who are into it as Food for the Soul. Some youngsters are probably listening to more of it than the people on this forum because they know how to access it from anywhere for relaxation or study purposes. Some of the videos on YouTube that have almost 200,000,000 hits are because they're being used for study, which probably helps students to maximize their mental potential and intelligence. A relaxed mind tends to be more retentive and effective. CM can help keep people sane in a sometimes troubled world, and I doubt if that was more true forty years ago than it is now.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

Video game soundtracks can be amazing I especially linked the God of War soundtrack last year. If you like please listen NieR Automata in concert.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Zofia said:


> Video game soundtracks can be amazing I especially linked the God of War soundtrack last year. If you like please listen NieR Automata in concert.


I see no reason that videogame music shouldn't be just as valuable as any other genre. The music of the most popular games probably reaches more people than the music of most movies, and I assume the composers are paid well. One other aspect -- since people tend to play games repeatedly, they will hear the music again and again, so it has to stand up to over-familiarity. That's a tough challenge!

Our local classical station often plays movie music and, occasionally, videogame music. I don't know that anybody complains.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

KenOC said:


> I see no reason that videogame music shouldn't be just as valuable as any other genre. The music of the most popular games probably reaches more people than the music of most movies, and I assume the composers are paid well. One other aspect -- since people tend to play games repeatedly, they will hear the music again and again, so it has to stand up to over-familiarity. That's a tough challenge!
> 
> Our local classical station often plays movie music and, occasionally, videogame music. I don't know that anybody complains.


Do you listen to video game music? As with most soundtrack work, for me there just isn't enough there to hold my interest.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

KenOC said:


> I see no reason that videogame music shouldn't be just as valuable as any other genre. The music of the most popular games probably reaches more people than the music of most movies, and I assume the composers are paid well. One other aspect -- since people tend to play games repeatedly, they will hear the music again and again, so it has to stand up to over-familiarity. That's a tough challenge!
> 
> Our local classical station often plays movie music and, occasionally, videogame music. I don't know that anybody complains.







love <3


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've had a look at the Adelaide Festival program for 2019. Its one of the most prestigious cultural festivals here in Australia, and it has been going for around fifty years. There's a mix of music, theatre, dance and so on, with both local and international acts.

In terms of classical you've got traditional concerts and opera but also this, the National Geographic Symphony:
https://www.adelaidefestival.com.au/events/national-geographic-symphony-for-our-world/

And this, a series mixing Australian indigenous with chamber music:
https://www.adelaidefestival.com.au/events/the-expanding-universe/

The Australian Chamber Orchestra has opted to go for the traditional format, Beethoven and Mozart:
https://www.adelaidefestival.com.au/events/forces-of-nature/

As I said, the flagship classical groups across the country (eg. the state orchestras) have been doing this sort of thing for a long time. Its helped balance the budget and bring in new audiences.

Perhaps its not a case of the old format completely disappearing but having other things running parallel. I don't see it as much different to the other revolutions we've had in classical music, which in turn mirrored political, social and economic changes. These saw shifts in power structures, from the church to the courts to the bourgeois. Populations moved from being rural to urbanised. Economies changed from being agrarian to industrial, their citizens more skilled and educated. Along the way we've had everything from Gregorian Chant to electronic music.

Now we're in the digital revolution. Our cities have large populations, many of them young professionals with jobs which didn't exist a generation or two ago, let alone in the 19th century. Being essentially products of postmodernism, the younger generation hasn't got much of the cultural homogeneity of previous generations. They've got high pressure jobs, often more than one, sitting in front of computers and are seeking ways of spending their disposable income in leisure and culture pursuits. That's one advantage of living in a big city with its high cost of living and population density, there's always something going on to be part of.

All this means some things in classical may go, but other opportunities open up. Perhaps we can see it in light of what Dr. Seuss said, "Don't cry because its over, smile because it happened." There are innovative ways of presenting music of the past, and mixing it with what's emerging now. If we look at things in a positive way, classical music can be one of the most exciting parts of the cultural mix of what's going on right now.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> Do you listen to video game music? As with most soundtrack work, for me there just isn't enough there to hold my interest.


Do you play videogames?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I've not read through this whole thread but as someone who teaches the young I can testify that there's no resurgence and similarly no 'death' of CM. What I'm finding is that children aren't identifying with music genre-wise any more. For example once I started getting into metal, in my teens, I got in with all the metal crowd at school and that made up the majority of my listening. The High school kids aren't identifying with each other like that anymore. Whilst some 14 year old may have some tracks from Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' he's just as likely to have a few oldie pop chart hits from the 80s and then some grime like Stormzy. Young people have such a huge library of stuff to delve into and they are just grabbing or streaming whatever takes their fancy as it's cheap. Single streams of random tracks far outweigh complete album downloads. The most popular pieces of CM, used for film/TV or computer game, will remain popular but the album format is struggling and exploration of genres isn't as widespread as it was. BTW, there's a good article about albums in the link below.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...p-streaming-pop-rock-itunes-a8443511.html?amp


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

I don't think that thinfs have changed too much since my youth. I was one of the few who liked classical music in my school. Things have not changed much.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I really do not think much has changed. When I was a youth I had no friends who shared my passion for classical music. No worries - they liked some really good music that I enjoyed getting into (this was the late 60s and early 70s) so I was the winner - but is it so different now? I guess the proportions of a population who are wired to really enjoy CM has always been low and that many of them take a long time to discover it (if they ever do). It believe that many sections of society never get the opportunity to discover CM so their x% never discover their potential love for it. Meanwhile the well-healed get to feel that CM belongs to them.

The big difference these days that I see is not about young people it is about the media and the way that CM is defined as an elitist pursuit and is laughed at. Even in Britain, where we still have public service broadcasting, sensation is the thing. Quality or truth or reasoned argument are not recognised values.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I really do not think much has changed. When I was a youth I had no friends who shared my passion for classical music. No worries - *they liked some really good music that I enjoyed getting into (this was the late 60s and early 70s) so I was the winner *- but is it so different now? I guess the proportions of a population who are wired to really enjoy CM has always been low and that many of them take a long time to discover it (if they ever do). It believe that many sections of society never get the opportunity to discover CM so their x% never discover their potential love for it. Meanwhile the well-healed get to feel that CM belongs to them.
> 
> The big difference these days that I see is not about young people it is about the media and the way that CM is defined as an elitist pursuit and is laughed at. Even in Britain, where we still have public service broadcasting, sensation is the thing. Quality or truth or reasoned argument are not recognised values.


Neither of my children are into CM but both are into music - my son is actually a professional musician but his tastes are very different to mine. But no matter - they are both enjoying and performing music!


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I wonder: some of our posts suggest we treat CM as a cause - like "the environment" or "universal human rights" - so that anything that might lead to more appreciation for CM is good. I get the video games link - as that is often real CM music - and the link leads directly to listening to fine pieces. I've seen that with my daughter ... and once she was "in" she started branching out and exploring all sorts of related pieces. But I do not get why people wanting so-called "classical treatment" of pop music, or concerts of orchestral film music by the likes of John Williams, are good things. What is good about them? And when they are called "classical music" I think they do a lot of harm. For every convert they bring into the classical fold there must be many more who think "well, if that is classical, it is not for me". 

The old route that many took - from prog rock to CM - was at least from one genuine form of music (if never one of my favourites) to another. Few cross-over pieces ever led to anything good.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

Enthusiast said:


> I wonder: some of our posts suggest we treat CM as a cause - like "the environment" or "universal human rights" - so that anything that might lead to more appreciation for CM is good. I get the video games link - as that is often real CM music - and the link leads directly to listening to fine pieces. I've seen that with my daughter ... and once she was "in" she started branching out and exploring all sorts of related pieces. *But I do not get why people wanting so-called "classical treatment" of pop music, or concerts of orchestral film music by the likes of John Williams, are good things. What is good about them? *And when they are called "classical music" I think they do a lot of harm. For every convert they bring into the classical fold there must be many more who think "well, if that is classical, it is not for me".
> 
> The old route that many took - from prog rock to CM - was at least from one genuine form of music (if never one of my favourites) to another. Few cross-over pieces ever led to anything good.


People enjoy them. After all, what is 'classical music'? Mozart's divertimento were not written to be profound masterpieces - just to provide background music for aristocrats. Is Bernstein's "West Side Story" classical? It appears in classical music recommendations like the Penguin Guide.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

^^^ I guess West Side Story is more or less classical (it is not a work I like very much and is probably best thought over as a cross-over piece). If Mozart had only written the odd divertimento I doubt we would care about him now and I would never advise someone who wants to explore CM to start with a divertimento. They are fine light works developed with a real feel and touch and were bang up to date in their time. But the world would be no different for me without them. 

John Williams's film music is far less. It is just a few fine antiquated gestures orchestrated in an old fashioned way. People knowing it turn to CM and say "its no better that John Williams only its more boring - there aren't so many good bits". CM is not about the gestures and the moments ... it is about the whole and a truly life-changing experience.


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## Red Terror (Dec 10, 2018)

MacLeod said:


> Do you play videogames?


I haven't in years but have listened to some of the lauded soundtracks on youtube and think such work is well suited for its intended purpose. Outside of enhancing the gaming experience this music achieves little else on its own.

With that said, I must concede that some of these clips showcase higher quality music than the muddle consumed by the wider public.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2019)

Red Terror said:


> and think such work is well suited for its intended purpose. Outside of enhancing the gaming experience this music does little else on its own.


And that's the point, it seems to me...that the attraction is really the game, with the music an accessory to the gaming environment.

I don't play them much now either, but I have some of the tunes from megadrive games and don't mind listening to them once in a while...Sonic, Ecco, Jurassic Park - though more for the nostalgia than for music listening pleasure!


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## Jacck (Dec 24, 2017)

MacLeod said:


> And that's the point, it seems to me...that the attraction is really the game, with the music an accessory to the gaming environment.
> 
> I don't play them much now either, but I have some of the tunes from megadrive games and don't mind listening to them once in a while...Sonic, Ecco, Jurassic Park - though more for the nostalgia than for music listening pleasure!


Some movie and game soundtracks are perfectly listenable on their own. I saw some "best game music of 2018" poll in a news server I read. There was God of War soundtrack and Red Dead Redemption soundtrack. I checked them on youtube and while the RDR soundtrack did not grab my attention, the God of War soundtrack was OK. And I do not play games anymore, do not own a PlayStation4, so I was evaluating the music as a standalone.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

I've contributed enough here, but the thread has made me look for articles covering the topic. I found one that focuses on the Australian scene, comparing it to other countries, and thought I'd share it:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-04/why-no-symphony-orchestra-in-the-world-makes-money/8413746

Some quotes:

_Unlike a musical, which has a lot of set-up costs and can then run for a year and a half to cover the initial cost, an orchestra might spend two or three days in rehearsal and then do two or three performances - that's it!

There is a shift in society's use of leisure time away from activities we used to think of as traditional uses of leisure time towards other things, which frankly are not well documented.

The orchestras I see around the world that have responded by being concerned about the financial side but making sure they don't lose sight of the artistic vibrancy and the momentum they have are the ones that will thrive into the future.

The audience for mainstream classical repertoire is finite, the subsidies that used to exist that made it possible to perform are shrinking, and commercial prerogatives have to be taken into consideration...The question then becomes: how many weeks of the year can we allocate to the really important things we must do to maintain our standards and status as opposed to the things we really need to do to reach a broader audience but also to make some serious money?_

Frankly, I'm more worried about all the world heritage sites that have been destroyed in the current war in the Middle East than any decline in classical music or the arts in general. These have been lost forever, in good part due to the complicity of Western governments. As is always the case in war, countless people have died or have had their lives destroyed. That is veering towards politics which I don't want to derail this topic with, its a topic for another thread and another part of the forum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_cultural_heritage_by_ISIL


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## sethmadsen (Jan 29, 2019)

This reminds me of when LSO played with Metallica. 

People like to link popular music with serious music. It doesn't mean there's a new trend and all of a sudden now your local symphony is raking in the doe. I think these ideas are conflated.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2019)

Jacck said:


> Some movie and game soundtracks are perfectly listenable on their own


I was simply responding to Red Terror who had said that, "As with most soundtrack work, for me there just isn't enough there to hold my interest." It's the game that is _meant _to hold the interest; any interest that the music might hold is an additional benefit. I'm not saying it can't standalone, just that it isn't intended to.


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## Haydn70 (Jan 8, 2017)

stomanek said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/music/2...classical-music-to-escape-scala-radio-station
> 
> Classical arrangements of taylor Swift apparently prove the young generation are moving away from the noise of modern music to classical.
> 
> No this is not a joke thread.


But it is a joke to think that the arrangement of that Taylor Swift swift song for cello and piano is classical music.

As Enthusiast wrote: "...I don't define music as classical simply because it is played on instruments that classical composers wrote for."

Spot on. A pop or rock or folk or heavy metal or what-have-you song arranged for cello/piano duo or string quartet or brass quintet or full orchestra is still just a pop or rock or folk or heavy metal or what-have-you song…the result is NOT classical music.


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## Zofia (Jan 24, 2019)

ArsMusica said:


> But it is a joke to think that the arrangement of that Taylor Swift swift song for cello and piano is classical music.
> 
> As Enthusiast wrote: "...I don't define music as classical simply because it is played on instruments that classical composers wrote for."
> 
> Spot on. A pop or rock or folk or heavy metal or what-have-you song arranged for cello/piano duo or string quartet or brass quintet or full orchestra is still just a pop or rock or folk or heavy metal or what-have-you song…the result is NOT classical music.


In total agreement! It is the Violin vs Fiddle debate.


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