# TC Top Classical Works



## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

I don't know if I am the best person to be starting this kind of thread, however I do not think this has been done yet on TC so I'll try my luck at it.
My goal is to gather enough users to contribute to this thread in order to get the most amount of data possible to create such a list. Basically, to compile a list with as many compositions as possible (within reason).

Format:
(I picked a format quite similar to that of the opera thread.) To assemble this list of works, I ask everyone to list 10-30 of their favorite pieces. These can be numbered or just listed at random (though numbering will help you keep track of how many you listed). At the end of the first round (which might last a few days to a week, depending on the amount of participants), I will narrow it down to a certain amount of works (say 20 or so) that are the most prominent among the lists for you to then rank 10 of them. On your same post, you can vote again for 10-30 pieces that are not among the ones that were chosen. Once all that data is compiled, I will rank 15 of the 20 (which will become the top 15) and will choose 15 new pieces among the new lists based on how many users chose them. The 5 that did not get selected will combine with the new 15. You will rank 10 of those 20 works in order and also choose another 10-30 works. I will rank the next 15 and repeat this process until we reach our goal. You can choose any works you want (orchestral, vocal, chamber, concerti, even film scores) across any era in time. However, you can only vote once per round.

Concerns:
I realize this might be too ambitious to accomplish, however I do not believe this kind of thread or project has been done before so it will be a fun experiment. Also, this format might be too overwhelming or difficult for some to understand. Your feedback on this prompt is welcome and appreciated. I understand that there are quite a few of you who do not like to rank wonderful masterpieces against each other. This list, in no way, will be official- just a collaboration of what are the favorites of us avid classical listeners at TC. Lastly, this will not work if we only have a few people participating. I invite and welcome all people to participate in this project, regardless of age. Please encourage your other friends here to participate in order to have a greater idea of what us members view as some of the greatest works of all time.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not sure if this project is really feasible but we'll see how much interest it generates. I've started to compile a tentative list, but it will take some time to figure out what 50 works I would nominate.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

We'll just have to see. I realized that 50 might be too many to nominate at any one time, so I lowered it to 10-30


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Well I guess this list would approximate my current favorites (not claiming them to be the 'greatest' works necessarily) and my list is often changing. 

1. J.S. Bach St Matthew Passion
2. J.S. Bach Mass in B minor
3. Beethoven Piano sonatas
4. Ravel Piano Trio in A minor
5. Schubert String Quartet #14 Death and the Maiden
6. Wagner The Ring Cycle
7. Mozart String Quintet in G minor
8. Bartok Bluebeard's Castle
9. Mahler Symphony #2
10. Debussy La Mer


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Don't you think it's best to have a fixed number, rather than 10-30?


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Maybe a smaller margin? Sometimes people struggle with what to put in a list since they don't want to leave out one of their favorites. If each member listed 30 works, it would give more data for the list. The problem is, after while, (assuming that this project will get so far) it might become tiresome to list out 30 works each time or some may not know that many (especially for members that are newer to classical music than others). If it were a set number it could be 15, 20, or 25, but I just feel that the range is more comfortable to the voter.

I really appreciate your input into this still developing project.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I think a specified number of nominations is best (rather than a range). People can always chose fewer if they can't fill up their list. I think 30 is too high. I would opt for a number between 10 and 20.

I realize that this is a different list than the Classical Music Project, but it seems very similar. It will produce a list of top works, and so will the Classical Music Project. The method is quite different, but I wonder if people will think there's no need for both.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

I was thinking the Classical Music Project enough? That's a list of works we recommend, which means we like them usually. We have TC top symphonies, top operas, and currently doing top keyboard concertos.

I guess we could go to tone poems then?


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> I think a specified number of nominations is best (rather than a range). People can always chose fewer if they can't fill up their list. I think 30 is too high. I would opt for a number between 10 and 20.
> 
> I realize that this is a different list than the Classical Music Project, but it seems very similar. It will produce a list of top works, and so will the Classical Music Project. The method is quite different, but I wonder if people will think there's no need for both.


I was actually hoping that this list would be quite different from the classical music project. I really enjoy the other thread and I do not mean to take anything away from it by creating this one, however I tried to change the focus. I believe the other project was trying to recommend works to those newer to classical music (which is completely fine), whereas I chose to assemble one with the focus being what are the general favorites. Instead of getting your traditional Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart, I thought it would be more interesting to list some of the more underrated composers.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Huilunsoittaja said:


> I was thinking the Classical Music Project enough? That's a list of works we recommend, which means we like them usually. We have TC top symphonies, top operas, and currently doing top keyboard concertos.
> 
> I guess we could go to tone poems then?


Tone poems would be a great idea. The only problem is that there are many works that are confused with tone poems and there may be a gray area to what we consider to be actually tone poems. Like I stated above, the project is a great thread and has compiled a really superb list. However, I was hoping that this different format would yield quite a different list.
I was also thinking that we could do a list on choral pieces.


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

Trout said:


> Tone poems would be a great idea. The only problem is that there are many works that are confused with tone poems and there may be a gray area to what we consider to be actually tone poems. Like I stated above, the project is a great thread and has compiled a really superb list. However, I was hoping that this different format would yield quite a different list.
> I was also thinking that we could do a list on choral pieces.


A different format, or even changing the rules slightly, would indeed yield quite a different list. It would be fun to incorporate them later as well.

I think for maximum participation, it would be prudent to do only one at a time though. Also, as time goes, there is some turnover in participants--new people come, oldies go away for awhile, so that there would be some different perspectives if they were done at different times, which would be another way of maximizing participation.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

What's the difference between this and the TC Classical Music Project?


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm gonna change my list, as I hadn't read the instructions carefully either!


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

01. Mahler: Das Lied von der Erde
02. Schubert: Symphony 8
03. Mahler: Kindertotenlieder
04. Brahms: Clarinet quintet
05. Bruckner: Symphony 9
06. Bach: Cello suites
07. Gorecki: Symphony 3
08. Schubert: String quintet
09. Bach: St Matthew Passion
10. Mahler: Symphony 4
11. Mozart: Clarinet concerto
12. Barber: Knoxville summer of 1915
13. Brahms: A German Requiem
14. Schubert: Die Winterreise
15. Dvorak: Symphony 9
16. Mahler: Symphony 9
17. Mendelssohn: Violin concerto
18. Stravinsky: The rite of spring
19. Alwyn: Lyra angelica
20. Beethoven: Symphony 6
21. Mahler: Rueckert Lieder
22. Faure: Requiem
23. Bach: Toccatas and fugues for organ
24. Strauss: Four last songs
25. Saint Saens: Symphony 3
26. Berlioz: Sinfonie fantastique
27. Brahms: Violin concerto
28. Mendelssohn: Symphony 3
29. Chopin: Nocturnes
30. Berg: Violin concerto

I'm sure I will be kicking myself soon for forgetting to include some obvious choices.......


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Are we just listing our personal favourites?


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

"To assemble this list of works, I ask everyone to list 10-30 of their favorite pieces." in post 1, so I think so. My list is definitely my own preference.


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## Webernite (Sep 4, 2010)

Art Rock said:


> "To assemble this list of works, I ask everyone to list 10-30 of their favorite pieces." in post 1, so I think so. My list is definitely my own preference.


I don't read these things very carefully.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

I guess I'll postpone this project for now. In the meantime, we can start on tone poems.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Trout said:


> I guess I'll postpone this project for now. In the meantime, we can start on tone poems.


Jurianbai mentioned that he would like to run a violin concerti one, so that might be next. I still think tone poems is a bit too hard to define.

Everyone is invited to check out the TC Top 100 Recommended Keyboard Concerti project which is now complete.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

Air said:


> Jurianbai mentioned that he would like to run a violin concerti one, so that might be next. I still think tone poems is a bit too hard to define.
> 
> Everyone is invited to check out the TC Top 100 Recommended Keyboard Concerti project which is now complete.


Awww, I missed it.
Instead of Violin Concerti, it might be better to list string concerti or concerti for any instrument. I don't think there are enough violin concerti to list 50, let alone 100 of them.
As I previously stated on this thread, we can also do choral works. There are enough choral works in existence to make a solid list.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

I agree with a string concerti list. I would suggest violin, viola, and cello (or any combination).


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Double bass? Guitar? Mandolin? Harp?


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Double bass? Guitar? Mandolin? Harp?


I guess you're being cynical, but the number of these instruments concerti (harp, guitar..) will be minimal, so will not harm the arch instruments concerti list. 
And we can do it just like that - Bow instruments concerti list


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Double bass? Guitar? Mandolin? Harp?


I guess you're being cynical, but the number of these instruments concerti (harp, guitar..) will be minimal, so will not harm the arch instruments concerti list. 
And we can do it just like that - Bow instruments concerti list.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

No, I was not being cynical. I rate Alwyn's harp concerto higher than most violin concertos. Rodrigo's guitar concerto is another candidate.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Art Rock said:


> I rate Alwyn's harp concerto higher than most violin concertos.


Are you referring to _Lyra Angelica_? I love that work... Alwyn's music is gorgeous.

DDD did Violin concertos together with the rest, calling it "Concertos for Strings". I personally prefer top 50 VC, and then top 30 other string instruments.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Alwyn's Lyra Angelica is lovely. Since that and other works should be in one of our lists, I will second Air's suggestion of top 50 VC and a top 30 other strings (cello, viola, harp, guitar, bass, etc.).

I think there seems to be enough interest in starting another list. People have suggested violin concertos, other strings, tone poems, and piano solo works. I think we should do all of those, but only one at a time. For many people (everyone?) it's hard enough to keep up with one list. 

I suggest we start a Top 50 Violin Concerto list. I think the method used with the Top 100 Piano Concertos worked well. Assuming others want to start with violin, the one issue is - Do we only include concertos with violins or do we include concertos with violins and other instruments (e.g. Mozart sinfonia concertante with viola, Brahms double concerto with cello, etc.)? Perhaps the simplest way to start is concertos with just violins (Bach's double violin concerto would count). When we so the string concertos, those could include anything with at least one non-violin string instrument.

I'd be happy to start a thread to compile this list (or even work with someone else), but since Trout started this thread, I'd like Trout's thoughts.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

mmsbls said:


> Alwyn's Lyra Angelica is lovely. Since that and other works should be in one of our lists, I will second Air's suggestion of top 50 VC and a top 30 other strings (cello, viola, harp, guitar, bass, etc.).
> 
> I think there seems to be enough interest in starting another list. People have suggested violin concertos, other strings, tone poems, and piano solo works. I think we should do all of those, but only one at a time. For many people (everyone?) it's hard enough to keep up with one list.
> 
> ...


I agree that only one list should be made at any one time.
However, 50 violin concertos would be difficult to list. I'm confident we could list 30 maybe 35 great violin concertos, but I think that we do not know that many to create a good top 50 that represents TC. I only know about a dozen violin concertos that probably everyone else knows (Mendelssohn, Brahms, Beethoven, Bruch 1, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Bach Double, Elgar, Berg, Korngold, Mozart 5, Shostakovich 1, etc.). Combining all string concertos into one list gives a somewhat greater selection, but not by much. There some wonderful cello concertos, I must admit. In that case, we might be able to get 50.
Lumping all the string concertos into one list would probably work best for the next list.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Trout said:


> Lumping all the string concertos into one list would probably work best for the next list.


I think we could probably go either way. You may be right that most people here would be uncomfortable with 50 violin concertos. I'm happy to do either 50 top violin or string concertos.

Perhaps others should weigh in. If we can't get a significant number who would be comfortable with 50 violin concertos, we should do all strings.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Bruch, Raff, Reger, Korngold, Hubay, Paganini, Dvorak, Szymanowski, Karlowicz, Bartok, Tchaikowsky, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Sibelius, Saint Saens, Vieuxtemps, Dutilleux, Walton, Elgar, Moeran, Bax, Barber, Berg, Schoenberg ....
That's already over 30 composers of violin concertos that I rattle off within a minute, several of them having composed more than one. I'd be comfortable with doing 50.


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## Air (Jul 19, 2008)

Okay, let's do 50 string concertos and see how it goes. If people are comfortable with doing more, then we will continue another 10, 20, 50 perhaps. These sort of things can always be decided later; what is more important is that we get solid participation that lasts throughout. Stretching limits is not always a bad thing of course, we learned a lot this way in the Top 100 Keyboard Concerti project.


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## Pieck (Jan 12, 2011)

Art Rock said:


> Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Bruch, Raff, Reger, Korngold, Hubay, Paganini, Dvorak, Szymanowski, Karlowicz, Bartok, Tchaikowsky, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, Sibelius, Saint Saens, Vieuxtemps, Dutilleux, Walton, Elgar, Moeran, Bax, Barber, Berg, Schoenberg ....
> That's already over 30 composers of violin concertos that I rattle off within a minute, several of them having composed more than one. I'd be comfortable with doing 50.


I'm a bit sad that I dont know most of them now for ranking them in a list, for I haven't been in the CM world for a long time. Maybe if we'll be given enough time I'll start listening to VCs right know so I'll know a couple more before the list is over.


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## Trout (Apr 11, 2011)

So if we're all in agreement, I can go ahead and create the new thread, unless if someone else would rather do it.


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## Miz (Aug 5, 2011)

I'll decide to go up to 5.

1. Mozart - The Marriage of Figaro: Overture
2. Mozart - Requiem: Dies Irae
3. Mozart - Symphony No. 25
4. Mozart - Symphony No. 40: I II III
5. Mozart - Eine Kleine Natchmusiek: I


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## science (Oct 14, 2010)

It's the old bu-bu-bu-buuuuuump!

Seriously though, I think tdc's original idea was a good one. All the works of all "genres" would be eligible, like in the "classical musical project" thread.

I've never been able to understand how the "TC Top" threads work - I just see lists and more lists and lists and more lists and then someone says "here's the winners" presumably by following some mathematical algorithm the nature of which is mysterious to me.... So I couldn't get it together. 

Also, as long as the classical music project is ongoing, this would be redundant. 

But when that draws to a close (hopefully will not happen until we get to at least 500), maybe we can reconsider this? I'd participate. 

Hopefully by then the list-fatigue and hostility will have, um, receded a bit as well.


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## maxshrek (Sep 14, 2011)

another personal entry in this list:
1) Die Kunst der Fuge
2) Die Grosse Fuge
3) Tristan und Isolde
4) Matthaus Passion


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## kv466 (May 18, 2011)

Ok, so how does this thread work anyway?


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