# Maltese Spinto Tenor Joseph Calleja



## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Given I've never been the biggest fan of tenors and have difficulty finding modern singers that who are my cup of tea (to an extent that could be considered unfair), someone who is both catching my ear says a lot.














he can go surprisingly low too


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Bravo! You have a good ear. This is one tenor that evokes a sound of the golden era -- a very rare quality indeed. He is my favorite tenor of the present lot (with close 2nds being both Beczala and Fabiano).
I do hope you got to see him in the HD of _Norma _last week. He was simply wonderful and Pollione is one difficult part to sing. He has to start out the first act with a killer high note at the end of an aria. Sadly, he missed it in the HD but 2 days before that he hit it right smack dab on the nose.
He's got a lot of heart and he is a very sweet and down-to-earth person who lacks a divo persona.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

^^^

He held firm stand against the lady's indeed, but I love his Lucia with Dessay ( from a few year back also from the Met) even more.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Beautiful, focused tenor. My favorite non-Kaufmann tenor at present.

Spinto? No way, nohow, boy! If you have to fach 'em, at least pick the right fach.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Beautiful, focused tenor. My favorite non-Kaufmann tenor at present.
> 
> Spinto? No way, nohow, boy! If you have to fach 'em, at least pick the right fach.


you never change :lol:


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

BalalaikaBoy said:


> you never change :lol:


You're changing the subject.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You're changing the subject.


True. He is a lyric tenor if ever there was one.


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## OperaMaven (May 5, 2014)

Lirico with just enough spinto edge to give him a shot at some of the dramatic roles - if he doesn't push it too hard too soon and ruin his voice (as has happened to others).

I keep wondering what relationship he is to Maltese character actor Joseph Calleia. Not close, I think. (Per his Wiki bio, Calleia was also a tenor, but not full-on operatic weight.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Calleia


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

My favourite tenor too. I'm excited about hearing him in "Tosca" next month at Munich. I may just go into full melt down when he sings "Qual occhio al mondo".


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

You are right, he is getting to the spinto stage. By his own admission his voice has become deeper and richer, hence the Pollione role. He feels he is crossing a new threshold vocally. Whatever it is, he is being careful about his voice and tends to stay in his fach and this is a good thing. I hope to enjoy him for a long time to come.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> You are right, he is getting to the spinto stage. By his own admission his voice has become deeper and richer, hence the Pollione role. He feels he is crossing a new threshold vocally. Whatever it is, he is being careful about his voice and tends to stay in his fach and this is a good thing. I hope to enjoy him for a long time to come.


It certainly surprised me how he held up in the Norma, the trio was stunning, hope they did record it for DVD release.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> You're changing the subject.


he does have an unusual build for a spinto. spinto tenors usually have builds more like basses (taller, slimmer, longer face) while lyric tenors tend to be a bit stockier, shorter neck, rounder face.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

Tell that to Caruso, Vickers and Tucker


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Annied said:


> My favourite tenor too. I'm excited about hearing him in "Tosca" next month at Munich. I may just go into full melt down when he sings "Qual occhio al mondo".


This will be my second Calleja outing after Mefistofele two years ago. I didn't know who he was back then, but stood up (figuratively speaking) and took notice as soon as he opened his mouth. I suspect he is well-suited to Puccini. I've also been quite impressed by Anja Harteros recently (moreso in Andrea Chenier than in Tannhäuser). I hope they make a great team!


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

Well last night was the first time "Recondita armonia" actually brought me out in goosebumps, so he certainly lived up to expections, even if my seat didn't.


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## BalalaikaBoy (Sep 25, 2014)

nina foresti said:


> Tell that to Caruso, Vickers and Tucker


Vickers was never a spinto. as heldentenor as it gets!


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## Taplow (Aug 13, 2017)

Annied said:


> Well last night was the first time "Recondita armonia" actually brought me out in goosebumps, so he certainly lived up to expections, even if my seat didn't.


Agreed about Calleja, he was the highlight of the evening. Goosebumps for me, too. I will be looking out for him in similar roles, and hope to see him more often on the Munich stage. He'll be back for Macbeth in April, so I'm going to add that one to my list.

I would have preferred a stronger Scarpia, though Željko Lučić was suitably evil in the role, and I was somewhat relieved to see a traditional staging. My seat was actually pretty good despite some weird sound reflection projected from stage right, and some teenage girls chattering behind me. First time in the balcony, front row.


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## Annied (Apr 27, 2017)

Well I'll certainly know to avoid the 3 Rang in future. I too was in the first row and needed 2 cushions just in order to see over the balcony wall. (At least I now know you can hire cushions.) I would have needed a further 2 however, to see over the railing that was mounted on top of the wall!


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Calleja is my favorite right now. Lyrico-spinto would be my take. The color is beautiful and his sound has that quality I find hard to label. It's resonant and comes rushing upstairs, in contrast to Cura with his big dramatic voice that, to me, definitely stayed down stairs! But it has a veiled, if it didn't sound so negative I'd almost say muffled quality, kind of like Callas. The part I don't understand is that this veiled thing would seem to be at odds with resonance, but it wasn't at all. I'm sure Stefan Zucker would be happy to explain, you there Stef? The first time I heard Calleja was in Lucia, way upstairs, and I felt surrounded by his sound and enjoyed him very much. The next was Boccanegra, half way downstairs, and that was my favorite. I sat in the orchestra for his Duke. It sounded good but he just didn't have enough swagger. But I'm a real fan!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

A nice voice compared to many current tenors but absolutely not a spinto, to my ears this is a very, very light voice, definitely wouldn't want to hear him in Verdi or as Pollione as someone mentioned previously on this thread.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> A nice voice compared to many current tenors but absolutely not a spinto, to my ears this is a very, very light voice, definitely wouldn't want to hear him in Verdi or as Pollione as someone mentioned previously on this thread.


Heard him sing Gabrielle Adorno in the house and this is not a light voice! Him, Tucker, Solovianenko and Domingo twice in the role. All of the others had the kind of compression I tend to associate with dramatic singing but his was the most free sound. Not sure how you divide your categories but I like the lyrico-spinto label and he is it.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

ScottK said:


> Heard him sing Gabrielle Adorno in the house and this is not a light voice! Him, Tucker, Solovianenko and Domingo twice in the role. All of the others had the kind of compression I tend to associate with dramatic singing but his was the most free sound. Not sure how you divide your categories but I like the lyrico-spinto label and he is it.


This makes me wonder if you heard Tucker a little later in his career because I wouldn't call his a light voice, especially in his prime, far from it. Domingo is not my kind of tenor and not a true spinto either, too constricted. Calleja shows no signs of having an instrument suited to anything but lighter roles from recordings though maybe it is a bigger sound in house. I'd be very sceptical however and even with volume he still lacks the ring, depth and darkness of tone I'd associate with a spinto. The closest we have to a true spinto today might be someone like Martin Muhle.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> This makes me wonder if you heard Tucker a little later in his career because I wouldn't call his a light voice, especially in his prime, far from it. Domingo is not my kind of tenor and not a true spinto either, too constricted. Calleja shows no signs of having an instrument suited to anything but lighter roles from recordings though maybe it is a bigger sound in house. I'd be very sceptical however and even with volume he still lacks the ring, depth and darkness of tone I'd associate with a spinto. The closest we have to a true spinto today might be someone like Martin Muhle.


What I think we have is a different interpretation of the terms and I've definitely been here before. Your guy Martin sounds to me like a full dramatic tenor ala Giacomini or Delmonaco. Im not saying I'm right, but for better or worse, here's how I use the terms...and I'm not going to put in roles or tenors because EVERYONE has some degree of disagreement about which role or which singer goes where:

Leggiero

Lyric

Lyrico- spinto

Dramatic (Italian) / Heldentenor (German)

I think that most of that is pretty clear with the one troublesome term being "spinto". As is often mentioned, the word literally means "pushed"....not that helpful but it does sound like we're getting towards dramatic.

In opera talk, for me mostly about tenors, I have most frequently heard the term used to talk about singers between lyric and dramatic. In an online video, Will Crutchfield uses the term lyrico-spinto for this group. I've heard lyrico-spinto used often. I have no doubt some would tell me that lyrico-spinto and spinto are different and I'm not saying they'd be wrong. All I'm doing is telling you the perception/ expression that I've worked out. I like lyrico-spinto because it seems to say "between lyric and dramatic".

So I was saying that Calleja is in the group of tenors between lyric and dramatic. The tenor role in Simon Boccanegra has a very dramatic aria but spends most of the night singinging quite lyrically. Old tenors like it, not because it's dramatic but because it's low! I heard Domingo in it twice and the next time I heard the opera he was singing Simon! Simon is good for him...he gets to use that furrowed brow that says " this is serious acting" all night long!

So there you have it....Scott's take on tenor categories, free of charge!

PS never heard your guy Martin but he does sound like a real dramatic...not that common .


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Op.123 said:


> This makes me wonder if you heard Tucker a little later in his career because I wouldn't call his a light voice, especially in his prime, far from it. Domingo is not my kind of tenor and not a true spinto either, too constricted. Calleja shows no signs of having an instrument suited to anything but lighter roles from recordings though maybe it is a bigger sound in house. I'd be very sceptical however and even with volume he still lacks the ring, depth and darkness of tone I'd associate with a spinto. The closest we have to a true spinto today might be someone like Martin Muhle.


I've often questioned on this forum the value of arguing about vocal categories ("fachs") which people seem fond of but disagree about how to define them or who belongs in them. I wonder what we've added to our understanding or enjoyment of Calleja's singing when we've labeled him "spinto" or "lirico-spinto." All I can say about Calleja is that his timbre sounds slender and has a soft quality - the opposite of "hefty" and "ringing" - which would seem to limit his most effective repertoire to roles generally placed in the "lyric" category. In this he's distinguished from another tenor who, to my knowledge, has never been labeled "spinto," but whose supposedly smallish, sweetly lyrical voice could open out and soar in way that Calleja's cannot, and who could sound convincing in roles as dramatic as Manrico and Radames - and even, on recordings at least, Calaf. I'm talking about Jussi Bjorling.

Here is Calleja in _Simon Boccanegra:_






I don't know how much power he has or what he sounds like in the house, but here he sounds to me as if the music is a size too large for him. He can sing it very well, his diction is pure, and he shapes the cantilena nicely and with feeling, but his voice as heard here doesn't possess the core and ring, the declamatory force, we'd ideally want for mature Verdi. It's the lyric aspects of this music that really suit him, and if I had to assign him a fach (which, luckily, I don't have to do ) I'd call him a lyric tenor. I think he'd be more suited to Monteverdi than to most Verdi; Alfredo and the Duke might represent about the limit of his voice's dramatic potential. Actually I'd like to hear him as Monteverdi's Orfeo.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> I've often questioned on this forum the value of arguing about vocal categories ("fachs") which people seem fond of but disagree about how to define them or who belongs in them. I wonder what we've added to our understanding or enjoyment of Calleja's singing when we've labeled him "spinto" or "lirico-spinto." All I can say about Calleja is that his timbre sounds slender and has a soft quality - the opposite of "hefty" and "ringing" - which would seem to limit his most effective repertoire to roles generally placed in the "lyric" category. In this he's distinguished from another tenor who, to my knowledge, has never been labeled "spinto," but whose supposedly smallish, sweetly lyrical voice could open out and soar in way that Calleja's cannot, and who could sound convincing in roles as dramatic as Manrico and Radames - and even, on recordings at least, Calaf. I'm talking about Jussi Bjorling.
> 
> Here is Calleja in _Simon Boccanegra:_
> 
> ...


As I was heading for my earbuds to listen it occured to me that the seed for this conversation was planted by a wise opera connoisseur...but who????

Spinto? No way, nohow, boy! If you have to fach 'em, at least pick the right fach.

Don't tell me....."if you have to..." is your open door! No.....disclaimer notwithstanding...too much relish in those words...someone who doesn't mind a good fach discussion!!! Now let me listen to Calleja...


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

I think of Calleja's voice (one that I love and equate with the golden era sound) as a full lyric as opposed to say Brownlee or Florez who are light lyric tenors. He doesn't seem spinto to me at all because he doesn't have what we sometimes call "ping" like Gigli, Tucker, del Monaco, Corelli, Caruso, Vickers etc. -- sometimes called a "heroic" tenor. In between are Pavarotti, Domingo, Bjorling, de Stefano, Shicoff, Beczala, Alagna etc.
What he DOES have that others today do not seem to is a classic sound of the past which is most appealing to these ears.
Just my take.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Haven't gotten to the opera proper and I can say The Met orchestra is, of course, phenomenal. But in the pit they present NOTHING NEAR the presence that this orchestra, in this video, of this concert is presenting. Not close.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Love your thoughts as always - truly, disagree though I'm going to (does this thing have emojis? I need them) - but we hear it differently. This aria, in which most of the music is what I would call lyric - selected moments of declamatory force - is probably the most dramatic outpouring the tenor has in the opera. As mentioned above I never heard him over matched in the house and believe that the orchestra is much too far out in front here. It's a lyric portrayal of the role for sure. Tucker was more robust.

But more importantly, if we take the view that a voice like Callejas is inadequate, we'll too rarely have a voice of that beauty performing this music. We know that there are few tenors today who have international prestige at the level of Calleja and we know that it is primarily the beauty of both his voice and his singing that gives him that prestige. Personally I'd love to hear him in a role considered much more dramatic, Manrico. People go immediately to Pira or the last act after the duet in that role and of course they are hugely important. But Giacomini, with a big imposing voice far less beautiful than Calleja, wasn't up to the big ending of the Pira and it fizzled. And we've sacrificed the extra beauty that Ah si ben mio and Ai Nostri Monti plead for. We can't wait around for Bjoerling and Corelli every night. Like anyone, I'd die to hear Corelli on a good night do it live, and I've got the Bjoerling early Covent Garden version that is absolutely mind blowing. But for me, when Corelli is not smack on, it just aint pretty enough. Probably why I'm a Bergonzi fan. Would you really relegate Calleja to only Alfredo because there once was a singer like Bjoerling? 

And as for the fachs...it's fun! And as I've heard you mention, the thinking it out CAN bring greater understanding. In this discussion I'm always wondering, what exactly makes a role more dramatic?....orchestration? orchestra size? declamatory or melodic vocal lines? Who declames more, Canio or Manrico? over what sound? you know its fun! emoji


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> Love your thoughts as always - truly, disagree though I'm going to (does this thing have emojis? I need them)


Yes, there are emojis! :wave:



> - but we hear it differently. This aria, in which most of the music is what I would call lyric - selected moments of declamatory force - is probably the most dramatic outpouring the tenor has in the opera. As mentioned above I never heard him over matched in the house and believe that the orchestra is much too far out in front here. It's a lyric portrayal of the role for sure. Tucker was more robust.
> 
> But more importantly, if we take the view that a voice like Callejas is inadequate, we'll too rarely have a voice of that beauty performing this music. We know that there are few tenors today who have international prestige at the level of Calleja and we know that it is primarily the beauty of both his voice and his singing that gives him that prestige. Personally I'd love to hear him in a role considered much more dramatic, Manrico. People go immediately to Pira or the last act after the duet in that role and of course they are hugely important. But Giacomini, with a big imposing voice far less beautiful than Calleja, wasn't up to the big ending of the Pira and it fizzled. And we've sacrificed the extra beauty that Ah si ben mio and Ai Nostri Monti plead for. We can't wait around for Bjoerling and Corelli every night. Like anyone, I'd die to hear Corelli on a good night do it live, and I've got the Bjoerling early Covent Garden version that is absolutely mind blowing. But for me, when Corelli is not smack on, it just aint pretty enough. Probably why I'm a Bergonzi fan. Would you really relegate Calleja to only Alfredo because there once was a singer like Bjoerling?


Far be it from me to relegate Calleja, or any singer, to what he does best. Singers, being human, want to stretch themselves and try things, and in a difficult field like opera a partial success may feel like a triumph - especially, alas, nowadays, when _somebody_ has to sing those dramatic roles. If Calleja (or anyone else) can't cut loose with high notes that make the hairs on your neck stand up, we shouldn't deny ourselves the notes he sings well. But - Manrico?  Well, OK... But I'll not be in attendance (don't care for the opera anyway, would go only for Caruso, Ponselle, Schumann-Heink and any of a dozen great baritones of that era who are a vanished breed).



> And as for the fachs...it's fun! And as I've heard you mention, the thinking it out CAN bring greater understanding. In this discussion I'm always wondering, what exactly makes a role more dramatic?....orchestration? orchestra size? declamatory or melodic vocal lines? Who declames more, Canio or Manrico? over what sound? you know its fun! emoji


Fach designations are a convention and a convenience at best, a conversation starter at next best, and the source of a lot of bloviation at worst (and commonly). I'd rather go directly at discussing what music a voice is suited to. The terminology of fachs won't tell you that except in obvious cases, and of course it completely fails with the many singers too versatile to be pigeonholed.

Of course I'm spitting into the wind. Fach away! :tiphat:


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Yes, there are emojis! :wave:
> 
> Far be it from me to relegate Calleja, or any singer, to what he does best. Singers, being human, want to stretch themselves and try things, and in a difficult field like opera a partial success may feel like a triumph - especially, alas, nowadays, when _somebody_ has to sing those dramatic roles. If Calleja (or anyone else) can't cut loose with high notes that make the hairs on your neck stand up, we shouldn't deny ourselves the notes he sings well. But - Manrico?  Well, OK... But I'll not be in attendance (don't care for the opera anyway, would go only for Caruso, Ponselle, Schumann-Heink and any of a dozen great baritones of that era who are a vanished breed).
> 
> ...


I'm guessing that other site would allow much more creative liberty when talking about fachs! All'armi!!!


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

Whether you like Calleja in spinto roles must certainly have something to do with what you prioritise in opera. For me, as put, I think brilliantly, in an old article form the Guardian, "Opera is not vanilla, opera is not beige, it is blood red and boiling. Opera is the artform of human catastrophe, the inheritor of the mantle of the darkest aspects of Greek tragedy." So maybe its clear that I will generally look for drama above poetry although the best performances will have both in abundance. Calleja has a beautiful tone compared to tenors like Kaufmann and worse, Florez, but I want a spinto with a certain heft that can be truly dramatic at times and I'm willing to sacrifice some refinement for that. Refinement doesn't always suit these characters either. It may also be that Calleja is being labelled as a spinto/lyrico-spinto because of the current lack of developed dramatic/spinto voices. As for Muhle, I wouldn't label him a dramatic tenor, he reminds me more of Corelli, albeit with a less impressive top, than del Monaco, and Corelli mentioned himself that he was not a true dramatic tenor.


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

When interviewed at the time he was doing the Radvanovsky _Norma _as Pollione, Calleja mentioned how his voice has started to develop in a more mature way and that he felt it was time to undertake more of those kinds of roles. (these are not his exact words -- but the "idea" of what he was trying to say.)
I keep going back to what happened to Villazon when I hear talk like that and just hope he doesn't take it too far and lose that wonderful and unique sound that isn't around these days.


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## wkasimer (Jun 5, 2017)

Woodduck said:


> I've often questioned on this forum the value of arguing about vocal categories ("fachs") which people seem fond of but disagree about how to define them or who belongs in them.


I've probably written this before, but I loathe discussions of fach when discussing singers. The only question that matters to me is whether a given singer is effective in a given role - it doesn't matter what artificial, non-reproducible category people want to place him/her.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

ScottK said:


> I'm guessing that other site would allow much more creative liberty when talking about fachs! All'armi!!!


No,no,no....I'm not beating that former horse....just woke up with one more point that I can't swallow. I recognize that you've let me go with your version of a gracious nod......"oh sorry....didn't mean to twist that knife as i take it out....THERE........is that better?!"

But it was your words that kept me from letting it go....those "high notes that make the hairs on your neck stand up" ???????????
........................................................................................................................................need I articulate the question that is going through my mind???????.......................................... ........................................................................................................................................Exactly WHO is singing these high notes? My Trovatorian history over a half century attending the Met: Three Manricos......... Young Domingo, Giacomini and Marcelo Alvarez. Not too shabby. Whatever one's feelings about them, I'm sure they could be labeled an all-time great, (an at least border-line) hall-of-famer and a leading tenor of his day good enough to make solo commercial recordings. And yes, at the end of the Pira, as we all waited for possibly the most famous hgh note in italian opera, one of them did make the audience respond with a collective "uhhhhh"!!.....when Domingo splatted the thing so bad he never got anything resembling a sung tone out. As mentioned, Giacomini saved himself from total humiliation by managing some fudge....fudge that left you going "I drove to New York for that?" The only one who got home dry was Alvarez....it was nice.

Thank God for Radvanovsky, Price and Caballe! And if Ponselle's legendary pianissimi were any better than Caballe's .........no.......better?....they couldn't be.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> When interviewed at the time he was doing the Radvanovsky _Norma _as Pollione, Calleja mentioned how his voice has started to develop in a more mature way and that he felt it was time to undertake more of those kinds of roles. (these are not his exact words -- but the "idea" of what he was trying to say.)
> I keep going back to what happened to Villazon when I hear talk like that and just hope he doesn't take it too far and lose that wonderful and unique sound that isn't around these days.


He strikes me as the type who will, for the most part, sing things with* his* voice. Some wont find it enough, as our discussion proves, but thats pretty much the way its always been. Having said that, I do remember when the Normas happened and i don't think he was very well received for them. I don't follow him that closely but I haven't gotten any sense that he's headed for the Villazon cliff. The way I remember it, the first word about Villazon was always how passionate his singing was. Carreras ardently proclaimed he wanted to sing everything and DiStefano....well, DiStefano was just DiStefano! Calleja seems more grounded, more balanced.


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## Seattleoperafan (Mar 24, 2013)

Sorry about that post


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> Whether you like Calleja in spinto roles must certainly have something to do with what you prioritise in opera. For me, as put, I think brilliantly, in an old article form the Guardian, "Opera is not vanilla, opera is not beige, it is blood red and boiling. Opera is the artform of human catastrophe, the inheritor of the mantle of the darkest aspects of Greek tragedy." So maybe its clear that I will generally look for drama above poetry although the best performances will have both in abundance. Calleja has a beautiful tone compared to tenors like Kaufmann and worse, Florez, but I want a spinto with a certain heft that can be truly dramatic at times and I'm willing to sacrifice some refinement for that. Refinement doesn't always suit these characters either. It may also be that Calleja is being labelled as a spinto/lyrico-spinto because of the current lack of developed dramatic/spinto voices. As for Muhle, I wouldn't label him a dramatic tenor, he reminds me more of Corelli, albeit with a less impressive top, than del Monaco, and Corelli mentioned himself that he was not a true dramatic tenor.


Like I say....and as I'm making clear, I do enjoy these discussions.....as soon as you try to put singers into a fach, the debates start! I'm sure the main reason is that, even if the lines of where one fach ends and another begins were clear, singers would still cross those lines again and again. And the lines, at best, are anything but clear!

I think an extremely important question is, if Calleja is not going to sing these fuller parts, who is? There will always be house tenors - no condescension, if they're singing opera professionally in my book we are talking about extremely talented and successful individuals - who can sing all the notes. But these discussions are about singers who have that something that makes them international, and somewhat timeless, figures. Who in that group is going to step up today and sing Gabriele Adorno in Boccanegra better than Calleja? Kaufman? it aint going to be as beautiful. Grigolo? I'm sure he'd be great! a wonderful Cavaradossi, it seems to me, should be able to sing Adorno. Who am I forgetting?

And I don't think Corelli's words are the last word on Corelli. For me the main reason I think of him as dramatic is because, that is not a sound I want to hear (COMPARED TO OTHER GIANTS) singing Parmi Veder le Lagrime.....and here we go....I KNOW, the Duke is for a lyric tenor. But someone who is not dramatic as Corelli insists, who is between dramatic and lyric, has to be good at the full bodied lyric stuff. That's the in between thing....a little dramatic, a little lyric.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Seattleoperafan said:


> He must be in his forties now as it was ages ago I saw him in Seattle.


And I'm not sure but I think Un Ballo in Maschera is his heavy role. Sounds prudent to me!


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## nina foresti (Mar 11, 2014)

ScottK said:


> No,no,no....I'm not beating that former horse....just woke up with one more point that I can't swallow. I recognize that you've let me go with your version of a gracious nod......"oh sorry....didn't mean to twist that knife as i take it out....THERE........is that better?!"
> 
> But it was your words that kept me from letting it go....those "high notes that make the hairs on your neck stand up" ???????????
> ........................................................................................................................................need I articulate the question that is going through my mind???????.......................................... ........................................................................................................................................Exactly WHO is singing these high notes? My Trovatorian history over a half century attending the Met: Three Manricos......... Young Domingo, Giacomini and Marcelo Alvarez. Not too shabby. Whatever one's feelings about them, I'm sure they could be labeled an all-time great, (an at least border-line) hall-of-famer and a leading tenor of his day good enough to make solo commercial recordings. And yes, at the end of the Pira, as we all waited for possibly the most famous hgh note in italian opera, one of them did make the audience respond with a collective "uhhhhh"!!.....when Domingo splatted the thing so bad he never got anything resembling a sung tone out. As mentioned, Giacomini saved himself from total humiliation by managing some fudge....fudge that left you going "I drove to New York for that?" The only one who got home dry was Alvarez....it was nice.
> ...


Please let's not forget Milanov and di Stefano's pianissimi as well. Superb.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

nina foresti said:


> Please let's not forget Milanov and di Stefano's pianissimi as well. Superb.


I'm with you all the way!!!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

ScottK said:


> as soon as you try to put singers into a fach, the debates start! I'm sure the main reason is that, even if the lines of where one fach ends and another begins were clear, singers would still cross those lines again and again. And the lines, at best, are anything but clear!


Precisely. Fachs simplify reality for convenience - not for MY convenience, I didn't become a musician for convenience - but for the convenience of opera houses who need a lyric tenor for Saturday afternoon's _Cosi fan tutte_ to replace Mr. Polenzani who has the flu.



> I think an extremely important question is, if Calleja is not going to sing these fuller parts, who is?


That question has been driving opera producers to drink for about forty years.



> And I don't think Corelli's words are the last word on Corelli. For me the main reason I think of him as dramatic is because, that is not a sound I want to hear (COMPARED TO OTHER GIANTS) singing Parmi Veder le Lagrime.....and here we go....I KNOW, the Duke is for a lyric tenor. But someone who is not dramatic as Corelli insists, who is between dramatic and lyric, has to be good at the full bodied lyric stuff. That's the in between thing....a little dramatic, a little lyric.


ALL voices should be able to sing a firm lyric line. That doesn't imply that certain voices aren't better suited to certain roles. Are we to define "dramatic" voices by their capabilities or by their limitations? The duke in Rigoletto is not "for a lyric tenor." It's for any tenor who can sing it well. Are there any better recordings of the duke's arias than Caruso's? And what "lyric tenor" has equaled his extraordinary 1904 recording of "Una furtiva lagrima"? Was he a lyric tenor when he recorded that, and then a spinto or dramatic tenor when he recorded his equally unsurpassed "Vesti la giubba" in 1907?

There's no strictly vocal reason why Corelli couldn't have been an effective duke, as Caruso was. However, he might have had to purge his style of some of its excesses. Caruso may be one in ten million, but his command of the various elements of singing - both technical and stylistic - ought to help us keep our notions of vocal fach in perspective.


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## Op.123 (Mar 25, 2013)

I agree with Woodduck that ideally we wouldn't have to deal with fach talk and all singers should be able to sustain a lyric line. There was a time where most voices were developed enough to tackle any role they felt suited them and did so with various levels of success. Ideally Mozart and Baroque opera should not be sung with overly light voices, really no opera should, with exception being made to those composed with the modern school in mind. Throughout the 20th century as singers began to develop their voices less using a fach system began to make more sense. Even if not ideal Mozart can cope with lighter voices far better than Wagner can and so when discussing modern singers I find a discussion of fach is almost always relevant.


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Woodduck said:


> Precisely. Fachs simplify reality for convenience - not for MY convenience, I didn't become a musician for convenience - but for the convenience of opera houses who need a lyric tenor for Saturday afternoon's _Cosi fan tutte_ to replace Mr. Polenzani who has the flu.
> 
> That question has been driving opera producers to drink for about forty years.
> 
> ...


I haven't had a chance to say this yet...I agree with every single thing you said! (Man I'm finding it hard to hit that post button without saying SOMETHING else!)


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## ScottK (Dec 23, 2021)

Op.123 said:


> I agree with Woodduck that ideally we wouldn't have to deal with fach talk and all singers should be able to sustain a lyric line. There was a time where most voices were developed enough to tackle any role they felt suited them and did so with various levels of success. Ideally Mozart and Baroque opera should not be sung with overly light voices, really no opera should, with exception being made to those composed with the modern school in mind. Throughout the 20th century as singers began to develop their voices less using a fach system began to make more sense. Even if not ideal Mozart can cope with lighter voices far better than Wagner can and so when discussing modern singers I find a discussion of fach is almost always relevant.


I enjoy it! It often leads to discussions about what roles you would or would not want to hear a singer in and I enjoy that, mostly because I think it's fun to consider but also because it leads me to reconsidering pre-conceived notions about how things "should" be.Happy New Year!


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## MAS (Apr 15, 2015)

Seattleoperafan said:


> Sorry about that post


What post are you talking about?


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