# K545 Question (sorry another one!)



## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

I've almost nailed the entire first movement of k545 after many months but the trills a few bars in and the same trill in the transposed section towards the end are still terrible. I thought they would 'click' over time so I've not addressed them but they haven't and its letting the entire piece down. I've looked at the score closely and slowed it down and tried everything I can think of but I'm just not playing them right. I thought I could play anything with my right hand and its frustrating I can't get it. From the hundreds of times I've played them I recall once where it sounded passable. Can it sometimes be a case that when listening to your own trills they can sound wrong or am I clutching at straws  Any tips on playing this trill correctly will be gratefully recieved.

Also, the very end where the right hand plays the 2 note trill before bringing the movement to a close sounds different in the youtube vid with the girl in the red dungarees (a popular vid and my reference piece) In that she sounds like she is playing 3 notes as in 321-321-321-321 instead of 21-21-21-21 which is indicated in the score. Is she playing it in this way or am I mistaken?

Kind Regards,

Jamie


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry for the double post but I shouldn't assume you know the video I mean so here is the link:


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## Methodistgirl (Apr 3, 2008)

The little girl was playing Mozart on the piano. It's nice to see and hear young
talent like that. It's refreshing. Mozart was probably her age when he wrote
this piece himself.
judy tooley


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

Can't say I can help you with the ending part of the movement, but tell me how long you spent like per week on the piece will ya? If it took you many months then you can't have worked on it that long. I actually began learnings this piece as an introductory piece with one of my teachers who I just recently left. I can only get to the arpeggios (are they arpeggios?) that go down the piano, but thats superfluous... I remember that I had trouble with the trills in this piece as well. Even the simple trill at the beginning (Which I think I do GFGEFE?) Sometimes the trill works and sometimes it doesn't. Once I started slowing the piece down and only going quick when it sounded better, the trills became smoother.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

I started to learn it when I got the score for it just before Christmas. I found much of it quite easy to pick up but there are a lot of parts for the left hand I could only master by playing it over and over and over....again. 

For a few months I didn't learn the final few sections in favour of constantly practicing the first part. Mosty through lazyness and not wanting to 'do theory'. Now I've learnt it from start to finish exactly as its notated on the sheet music although I only noticed recenty the first part is repeated. Why do many performers not play it in this way? Could it be that like my they didn't realise! There are a few bits I need to iron out including the trills then I'm going to get it recorded. Only then I feel will I be able to die happy.  When thats done I'm going to concentrate soley on Girl With The Flaxen Hair. I started that about 10 years ago. 

Why is K545 refered to as 'for beginners' I know its not that technically challenging but its all played very fast meaning the performer needs strong fingering. Unlike for example Clair De Lune which needs no where near the same dexterity.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Pianoforte said:


> I started to learn it when I got the score for it just before Christmas. I found much of it quite easy to pick up but there are a lot of parts for the left hand I could only master by playing it over and over and over....again.


Playing something over and over is not the way to learn a piece. Actually, that's not a strategy that works, at all.

You don't need to play a it lot. You just need to play it well.

Practice the left hand alone and slowly. Be sure you actually know what you are playing and that you are not just developing muscle memory.
Try changing rhythms, for example: instead of playing eight quavers replace them with "dotted quaver, semiquaver, dotted quaver, semiquaver", etc.



> Why is K545 refered to as 'for beginners' I know its not that technically challenging but its all played very fast meaning the performer needs strong fingering.


If by fingering you mean clarity, yes it does.



> Unlike for example Clair De Lune which needs no where near the same dexterity.


  

That's a monumental mistake. What makes that Debussy piece demanding is not something you can primarily see (like the rapid alberti bass in the K545): it's the touch, the nuance, the expression, the harmony and sonority.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks, all valuable info. Something I've noticed when learning passages with my left hand is that learning the notes isn't enough for me to be able to play it. I need to play it over and over and imprint it on my brain. I used a very bad example with Clair De Lune more so because I can't even play it but I find putting emotion in to music quite easy its because I have weak wrists (and broke my right wrist a few years ago) so I find rapid playing hard to maintain. Of course playing the notes with the right fingers and warm up helps but I find playing constantly and trying to increase the pain threshold increases that threshold. I've read that you should stop straight away if you feel any pain in the hands or wrists. Is this true? I would have thought all the great performers achieved their status with a bit of "no pain no gain" instead of stopping whenever they felt a twinge.

I recorded the full first movement of K545 last night but with a complete cock up at the end. No surprise all the parts I've still not fully got the hand of the fingering I mess up on.

Apart from that huge mistake I was quite pleased with how some of the other sections sound. I was surprised at how quickly I lose the pulse though so still plenty of work to be done:

Please check it out and give feedback. I think I have all the notes and fingering correct but you never know...


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Why do you hold all the keys during the arpeggios?

The left hand needs a lot of practice. Sometimes students believe if they play it fast, the little errors become less apparent... that's not true. You need to play that a slow pace, until you can really control it. The left hand not only is messy, but it's also very loud, and the listener can hardly distinguish the melody.

Also, you need to work those left hand scales: play them slow, until all the notes sound even in tempo and in dynamic. Exercise the movement of the thumb, particularly when its crossing beneath fingers 2 and 3. That may help your uneven arpeggios too.

Do use metronom?


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

It's legato so shouldn't he hold the arpeggios until he moves to the next few notes?


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Np. He should not. If _legato _meant _sostenuto_, then why holding the notes in this arpeggio but not the ones in the alberti bass?

The _legato _marking doesn't mean you have to _sustain _the notes.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

Well I told him on the YouTube comments that the alberti bass sounded a little choppy as well. So maybe he doesn't have to necessarily sustain the notes but make them a little more flowing.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks so much for the comments here and on youtube. I've found them very useful and its made me realise just how lacking in dynamics it was and how weak the left part is. In my defence though I've never had lessons or exams and its only recently I've started to concentrate on improving my left hand so in that respect its a virtuoso performance 

I've slowed it down and found that its easier to keep the pulse constant and accent the correct notes. I've always had a problem with performing or recording on the piano. I used to relish singing and acting in front of thousands (many moons ago) but ever since I started playing the piano I've always got nervous very quickly if I had an audience or knew I was being recorded. I suppose its because I've always learnt just by ear and never had the crucial knowledge of the notes on paper. Theory is something I've foolishly avoided until now and I'm reaping the benefits of learning to read music.



I have a scales question: Whats the correct fingering for playing up and down each major scale with the left hand?

Kind Regards,

Jamie


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

5-4-3-2-1-4-3...

I may be wrong but I think that's how I do it.


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## YsayeOp.27#6 (Dec 7, 2007)

Pianoforte said:


> I have a scales question: Whats the correct fingering for playing up and down each major scale with the left hand?


Do you mean the general fingerings, or for this particular work?

For the C scale, on two octaves: 
Going up: 54321321-4321321
Going down: 1231234-12312345

That's the general structure. It changes if the key becomes more complicated.


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## Rachovsky (Jan 5, 2008)

My bad. Thats an easier fingering for C scale.
May I suggest listening to this video though (just audio).






It's played by Sviatoslav Ricther and he did what my piano always stressed for me to do. The melody is played louder than the bass. I think he said like 2 times louder than the bass was perfect. The notes flow together as well in the legato manner. This is the best version of the piece I've found on YouTube.


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## Pianoforte (Jul 27, 2007)

Fantastic. I dream of the day I can play it that well!

Thank-you for the scales advice I am trying to be disciplined enough to do some excercises every day in particular with the left hand. 

I discovered where I've been going wrong with the trills too. When I first started learning the piece I would stop playing the left part when I got to the trill to concentrate on it fully and thats never changed so I've been missing the D on the first trill and not sure what note for the second as not near a keyboard so it sounded empty. By playing the left part correctly its now sounding semi-plausable and just needs lots of trill practice. 

Am I trying to run before I can walk or could K576, Allegro be in my grasp? I've not seen it being played but it sounds like the left part is demanding.


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