# The 2nd Viennese School



## Portamento (Dec 8, 2016)

A continuation of this thread (which has now been moved to the polls sub-forum).


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

I was about to start a thread on the Second Viennese School and then found this one. But there's been no discussion in four years? I'm hoping that by bumping it, it might generate more activity.

For the last week I've been concentrating on the music of Schoenberg and Berg - and really enjoying this return to their music. At one time I listened to them a lot but then drifted off into mainly Webern. I'm even getting into works that I never used to enjoy, like _Gurre-Lieder_.

So, any other 2VS fans out there?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

I like Webern’s later songs, the ones with opus numbers, IMO anyone who enjoys Wolff would enjoy these pieces. Dorothy Darrow seems to me to interpret the music particularly expressively.

I am very fond of the Webern op 24 concerto, the four violin duos, op 7 and the op 9 bagatelles for string quartet.

As far as Schoenberg is concerned, I’m quite interested in the string trio, which seems to me to resemble Bartok’s 6th quartet. And Moses and Aaron too. 

I’ve enjoyed both the Berg operas in the opera house. Wozzek is a bit like Peter Grimes.


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## Livly_Station (Jan 8, 2014)

I'm familiar with some of their better known pieces (and I'm fond of many of them), but I have to admit that I never delved too deep into their repertoire. It's something I'd like to do eventually.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I like Webern's later songs, the ones with opus numbers, IMO anyone who enjoys Wolff would enjoy these pieces. Dorothy Darrow seems to me to interpret the music particularly expressively.
> 
> I am very fond of the Webern op 24 concerto, the four violin duos, op 7 and the op 9 bagatelles for string quartet.
> 
> ...


Those Berg operas are masterpieces, there was a time when I spent a lot of time with them, and have two books, one for each opera, with in-depth analysis written by George Perle, an important composer in his own right. His lieder is also wonderful.

For the last few days I created Spotify playlists for every Schoenberg opus (and also the works WoO) - including every recording on Spotify of each work. I've got them in a folder and can listen to each work from a number of recordings, or play randomly. I did a similar thing, although not as comprehensive for Berg. I already had a complete folder of Webern works. IMO, this is a huge advantage Spotify has over a CD collection which is prohibitively expensive to do something similar, and then playback is nowhere near as flexible.

My next project will be playlist folders for related composers, e.g, Zemlinsky, Schoeck, Schreker, and others.


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

Here's a disc in my collection that may be of interest to readers of this thread:

















Recorded February 22-25, 2005 and released in 2007, pianist Steffen Schleiermacher performs pieces by, as the title says, "The Viennese School - Teachers & Followers". The works on this CD are composed by Arnold Schoenberg (tracks: 1 to 3, 27), Egon Wellesz (tracks: 4 to 6), Hanns Eisler (tracks: 11 to 14), Hanns Jelinek (tracks: 19 to 24), Józef Koffler (tracks: 7 to 10), Roberto Gerhard (tracks: 25, 25), and Viktor Ullmann (tracks: 15 to 18).

The point being: if you are interested in the music of the 2nd Viennese School, you may want to explore the less familiar composers with ties to Schoenberg including Wellesz, Eisler, Jelinek, Koffler, Gerhard, and Ullman.

This disc features piano music, but the listed composers also produced works in other formats, including chamber music and symphonies. The symphonies of Egon Wellesz and Roberto Gerhard, also in my collection, prove especially intriguing.

The second volume is intriguing, too.

View attachment 159433


View attachment 159434


The piano music on this one is by Schoenberg, Natalia Prawossudowitsch, Peter Schacht, Nikos Skalkottas, Marc Blitzstein, Erich Schmid, Leon Kirchner, Lou Harrison and John Cage.

A lot to explore.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

SanAntone said:


> Those Berg operas are masterpieces, there was a time when I spent a lot of time with them, and have two books, one for each opera, with in-depth analysis written by George Perle, an important composer in his own right. His lieder is also wonderful.
> 
> For the last few days I created Spotify playlists for every Schoenberg opus (and also the works WoO) - including every recording on Spotify of each work. I've got them in a folder and can listen to each work from a number of recordings, or play randomly. I did a similar thing, although not as comprehensive for Berg. I already had a complete folder of Webern works. IMO, this is a huge advantage Spotify has over a CD collection which is prohibitively expensive to do something similar, and then playback is nowhere near as flexible.
> 
> My next project will be playlist folders for related composers, e.g, Zemlinsky, Schoeck, Schreker, and others.


How is Schoeck related to the Second Viennese School? I can see the Zemlinsky and Schreker connections.


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## gregorx (Jan 25, 2020)

SONNET CLV said:


> The point being: if you are interested in the music of the 2nd Viennese School, you may want to explore the less familiar composers with ties to Schoenberg including Wellesz, Eisler, Jelinek, Koffler, Gerhard, and Ullman.
> 
> This disc features piano music, but the listed composers also produced works in other formats, including chamber music and symphonies. The symphonies of Egon Wellesz and Roberto Gerhard, also in my collection, prove especially intriguing.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I am interested in exploring the works of the lesser known composers on the periphery of the SVS. Edwin Stein, I think, was a student and Stefan Wolpe was a follower who studied with Webern on his way out of Europe. I've always considered Wellesz a principal, but maybe others don't. Moving to England and his subsequent denunciation by Schoenberg didn't help his standing.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Aimez-vous Luigi Dallapiccola?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

My favourite Wozzek was based around a line of the doctor, where he tells Wozzek to live on a diet of beans. The whole production was based around baked beans.

View attachment 159445


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Mandryka said:


> My favourite Wozzek was based around a line of the doctor, where he tells Wozzek to live on a diet of beans. The whole production was based around baked beans.


Wow. When I think of Wozzek, I think of many things, none of which include baked beans.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

SanAntone said:


> So, any other 2VS fans out there?


Yep. On the previous thread back in '17, I said I was still trying to get into Berg. In 2021, I'm proud to proclaim that I'm farther along into Berg, mostly because I stopped worrying about trying to identify his arcane 12-tone/atonal quirks and hidden messages.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This sums up my feeling on the Second Viennese School:


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

I've always enjoyed Schoenberg's music, he's one of my favorite composers. his late romantic style works are good - Pelleas & Melisande, Gurre-lieder, etc, but I esp like his atonal music, once he broke with traditional tonality...I remember most fondly when in school, we performed his 5 Pieces for Orchestra....that was a real ear-opener for many of us...fascinating to play..

Berg is really good, too, I've long enjoyed his works....one work that is sometimes overlooked, that I think is quite beautiful, is the Altenberg Lieder....Webern came later for me...originally I found it too sparse, too thin, spare...but I've come to enjoy his music much more...performing it helped a great deal...
I wish that some of my favorite conductors had performed/recorded more SVS music - the few efforts by Reiner and Solti are really excellent, I wish there were more....they excelled at bringing out the details in these scores, yet still maintaining the "big picture"...both conductors were superb when dealing with complex scores - ie - R. Strauss tone poems, operas, Stravinsky, etc...
It's too bad Monteux was not attracted to the SVS....his contribution might have been most welcome, had he been so inclined.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

mbhaub said:


> This sums up my feeling on the Second Viennese School:


Speaking as someone from Nashville, that song is absolutely perfect. Well, except the part about atonal music having no tonal center. As Robert Simpson said, "Atonal music is, after all, nothing else but tonal music in which the tonal functions occur and permute in the shortest possible space in time." But that wouldn't fit into the rhyming scheme, so I'll let it pass.


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

I have long liked the early Romantic Schoenberg and also the serial works that sound like Romantic music but with the wrong notes. But over the last couple of years I have developed a stronger taste for the more modernist spiky works like Moses und Aron. As the years go by my appreciation of Schoenberg grow and grow.


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## HenryPenfold (Apr 29, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> Wow. When I think of Wozzek, I think of many things, none of which include baked beans.


Sorry guys, but the beans that the doctor referred to were to be boiled not baked (seriously).


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Is there any chance this thread might learn how to spell _Wozzeck_ correctly?


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

mbhaub said:


> This sums up my feeling on the Second Viennese School:


But mbhaub, do you have threads like those? Or that hat?
I do.

Overall a fine piece of music, well performed.
Too bad it was ruined by the insertion of that danged infernal country music song.


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## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Actually I have all that. Growing up the the southwest in rural ranch land, the whole cowboy, rodeo, country music thing was second nature. My wardrobe is 95% from Boot Barn or other western outfitters. I own several Stetson hats - straw and felt. A shirt like he has on? I have several in that style - they're Scully's. Except when I'm at the gym, I wear cowboy boots all the time. Several years ago I was in London going to the Proms for a few weeks - in full cowboy attire: hat, boots, etc. 

BTW: Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony no 1 is a masterpiece, harder than heck to play. Maybe it takes actually playing some of this SVS music to really "get it". Whatever the eventual position of this atonal music will be, who knows? But at this time it seems the music will remain a niche product with very few followers. There was a lot of music from the 20th c added to the standard repertoire; not one work of the SVS made it. Tells you something.


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

mbhaub said:


> Several years ago I was in London going to the Proms for a few weeks - in full cowboy attire: hat, boots, etc.
> 
> .


Everyone here would think you're a Village People groupie.











mbhaub said:


> Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony no 1 . . . But at this time it seems the music will remain a niche product with very few followers. .


In fact the chamber symphony 1 sounds to me really accessible -- I can't imagine why someone who enjoys Richard Strauss wouldn't like it.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

mbhaub said:


> There was a lot of music from the 20th c added to the standard repertoire; not one work of the SVS made it. Tells you something.


This is totally false. There's little doubt that Berg's Violin Concerto is firmly in the repertoire, and gets played really often all over the world, just for one example. _Verklärte Nacht_ is standard rep, of course, but also _Wozzeck_ and _Lulu_ are regularly staged at the world's greatest opera houses. There are dozens of performances of _Pierrot Lunaire_ every year! As for Webern, the Five Movements for String Quartet is unquestionably standard quartet rep.

I could go on. The actual truth is a lot of music by Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern gets performed quite frequently all over the place.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

...yes, and by the top musicians/ensembles in the world.

Count me in as an SVS fanboy. I don't mind the label at all. I'll share some thoughts on Berg. He seems to be the stepchild of the group. Schoenberg and Webern get the most attention it seems on this site and many have admitted they don't listen much to Berg.

And that's a shame. It might be because he is not as controversial as the others, perhaps. I hope it's not for his music. I would urge them to really give him a listen. _Three Pieces for Orchestra, Lyric Suite,_ whatever you can find. If you have the time and energy, my preference would be for you to hear and study _Wozzeck_ for its sheer expressionism, gut-wrenching climaxes, and dramatic impact. It really is a tour de force of 20th century music. The technique and vocabulary are widely varied of 20th-century techniques, but all Berg's own.

Maybe they write him off as a Schoenberg copy-cat, overly-intellectual, a hack, a niche composer, a writer of tricks and gimmicks, etc. etc. (they'd be wrong). Be my guest. But there is one thing for which I cannot let anyone dispute (especially after listening and studying _Wozzeck_). One glaring fact about the man's music which is undeniable. And that is this-

Berg **MEANT** it.

And that is the very least we can ask of any composer.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Torkelburger said:


> ...yes, and by the top musicians/ensembles in the world.
> 
> Count me in as an SVS fanboy. I don't mind the label at all. I'll share some thoughts on Berg. He seems to be the stepchild of the group. Schoenberg and Webern get the most attention it seems on this site and many have admitted they don't listen much to Berg.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't necessarily agree that Berg receives less attention or respect than Schoenberg or Webern, although I understand what you're getting at. Based on his operas alone he has arguably had the most impact.

One thing that has always kind of bothered me is the lumping of these three composers into a "school." Their styles are very different, and while they all employed the 12-tone method, they all used it is different ways and in different degrees. In fact, I'd go as far to say that every composer who has used the 12-tone method uses it uniquely.

It reminds me of a similar thing with the "New York School" - with the composers and even more so for the painters.


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## Torkelburger (Jan 14, 2014)

SanAntone said:


> I wouldn't necessarily agree that Berg receives less attention or respect than Schoenberg or Webern, although I understand what you're getting at. Based on his operas alone he has arguably had the most impact.
> 
> One thing that has always kind of bothered me is the lumping of these three composers into a "school." Their styles are very different, and while they all employed the 12-tone method, they all used it is different ways and in different degrees. In fact, I'd go as far to say that every composer who has used the 12-tone method uses it uniquely.
> 
> It reminds me of a similar thing with the "New York School" - with the composers and even more so for the painters.


Yes, I meant on this site. It seems to me that people don't seem to talk about Berg as much as the other two on this site (among the detractors). I didn't mean to infer among the literati, etc. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Yes, I agree about the lumping together. I actually meant to make that point a few weeks ago in the Bubbles thread when user "chipia" kept grouping the SVS together and saying that they sounded the same (random), but I'm so long-winded and a blow-hard, that I forgot it.

Yes, each (talented) composer who has used the 12-tone method uses it uniquely, most definitely. I don't find it restrictive at all.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Knorf said:


> Is there any chance this thread might learn how to spell _Wozzeck_ correctly?


What is it with 2nd Viennese School and hard-to-spell words? Wozzeck, Aron? Can't they use normal names like Marie and Lulu? Oh, wait . . .


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

I avoided the 2VC for my first couple years of classical listening because of its reputation, but once I actually started listening to it I fell in love with it. It's some of the most sublime, sensuous music of the 20th century; in some cases, like the Berg VC and Schoenberg's string quartets, it's been close to moving me to tears. It is really just the natural extension of Wagner, Mahler, and Strauss. I can't fathom why anyone would find it cold, academic, unlistenable, etc. I admit that Webern is more cerebral and tougher to get into, but I love the active experience of listening to his carefully calculated splashes of color and harmony like a pointillist painting - I find it highly relaxing and I think even the most curmudgeonly would find something interesting in, say, the _Six Pieces for Orchestra._ Besides the great Berg VC I also recommend Berg's _Altenberg Lieder_ and _Three Pieces for Orchestra_, Schoenberg's _Variations for Orchestra_ and the last two movements of his _String Quartet No. 2_ for skeptics of atonal music.


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## Doublestring (Sep 3, 2014)

With a little generalization you could describe them like this:


Schönberg: The founder, the theorist
Webern: The radical modernist, who inspired the next generation of serialists
Berg: The one who wrote good music with it

When I hear Berg's violin concerto I can't help thinking it sounds good _in spite_ of being dodecaphonic. Schönberg wrote his best music before inventing his twelve tone system. When other, beginning composers write dodecaphonic it usually sounds bad. Good music isn't just about which notes you use, but about orchestration, density, rhythm... The grandiosity of expressionism, the late romantic roots, Klangfarbenmelody and Sprechgesang were important style elements. It wasn't just about putting twelve notes after each other.

Schönberg predicted that his music would be widely appreciated in a hundred years, but that didn't come true. Even classic radio channels are still avoiding him, preferring "pleasant and relaxing" music. Most people have a negative opinion about atonal music, but they formed that opinion without listening to it. People don't run away screaming when they hear it; they just can't keep their attention with it, because they're not used to that kind of music. It's depressing for young composers. If the audience still hasn't accepted the music of a hundred years ago, then how can modern music of today ever gain a wider recognition?


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Doublestring said:


> With a little generalization you could describe them like this:
> 
> [*]Webern: The radical modernist, who inspired the next generation of serialists
> [*]


I'm not sure. One thing I've heard said was that Webern was more influential in Europe, Schoenberg in the US.

Talking of influence, Berg was a direct influence on the early work of Klaus Hubler, who is an important 1980s Darmstadt composer, a pioneer of so called complexity. There's an excellent recording of his quartets by Arditti.

And I think that anyone who enjoys Webern would enjoy Brice Pauset's canons. There must be inspiration from Webern.

Not clear to me if there really is anything more than the most superficial relationship between the Ferneyhough trio and second quartet, and the Schoenberg trio and second quartet. Or between Pierrot Lunaire and Marteau sans Maître.


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Knorf said:


> Is there any chance this thread might learn how to spell _Wozzeck_ correctly?


Agreed. It's _Woyzeck_, of course.

- Yours sincerely, G. Büchner


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Doublestring said:


> Schönberg predicted that his music would be widely appreciated in a hundred years, but that didn't come true. Even classic radio channels are still avoiding him.


As Norman Lebrecht said of Schoenberg, "It is a measure of the immensity of the man's achievement that, 50 years after his death, he can still empty any hall on earth."



Doublestring said:


> If the audience still hasn't accepted the music of a hundred years ago, then how can modern music of today ever gain a wider recognition?


It's not that they haven't accepted the music of a hundred years ago; it's just that they haven't accepted_ tha_t music of a hundred years ago. People have no problem with, say, Debussy and Ravel.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Agreed. It's _Woyzeck_, of course.
> 
> - Yours sincerely, G. Büchner


And it is peas the doctor commands him to eat, not beans.*

Moses brother Aron lost the second "a" supposedly because of triskaidekaphobia, how did the misspelling of Woyzeck become established?

* What I didn't know but just learned that this is based on real experiments Justus von Liebig performed in the 1830s and Büchner might have been involved as a student/RA.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03374680
https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/im-erbsenwahn.993.de.html?dram:article_id=266537


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

Kreisler jr said:


> And it is peas the doctor commands him to eat, not beans.*
> 
> Moses brother Aron lost the second "a" supposedly because of triskaidekaphobia, how did the misspelling of Woyzeck become established?]


AARGH! From baked beans to boiled beans to peas and from Wozzek to Wozzeck to Woyzeck, I don't know what to believe anymore!


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Wozzeck is the official spelling of the Berg opera. But it's wrong, the Büchner play is called "Woyzeck". Berg got to know the material in the first printed edition from 1879 that already used the differently spelled title.

Büchner's play was based on a real criminal case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woyzeck
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Woyzeck


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Reichstag aus LICHT said:


> Agreed. It's _Woyzeck_, of course.
> 
> - Yours sincerely, G. Büchner


The original play _Wozzeck_ was derived from is entitled _Woyzeck_, yes. But the opera is _Wozzeck_.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Manxfeeder said:


> As Norman Lebrecht said of Schoenberg, "It is a measure of the immensity of the man's achievement that, 50 years after his death, he can still empty any hall on earth."


It was crap when he said it, and it's crap now. I've attended plenty of performances of Schoenberg's music where no one left.

ETA: for example, I heard the Concertgebuoworkest in Amsterdam perform Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra, Op. 31, Chailly conducting, and it was _very_ enthusiastically received.



> It's not that they haven't accepted the music of a hundred years ago; it's just that they haven't accepted_ tha_t music of a hundred years ago. People have no problem with, say, Debussy and Ravel.


Among music lovers who like 20th c. classical music, Schoenberg is very widely accepted. Anyone who says otherwise is simply not paying attention, and mindlessly repeating a falsehood.

Honestly, can we please _not_ have another Schoenberg or Second Viennese School thread with people reflexively interrupting with the equivalent of "LOLZ Shernberg suxors"?


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## Heck148 (Oct 27, 2016)

Knorf said:


> It was crap when he said it, and it's crap now. I've attended plenty of performances of Schoenberg's music where no one left.
> 
> ETA: for example, I heard the Concertgebuoworkest in Amsterdam perform Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra, Op. 31, Chailly conducting, and it was _very_ enthusiastically received.


Yes....when Levine first took over at BSO, he programmed a lot of Schoenberg....first concert I heard by him there included Schoenberg 5 Orch Pieces [great performance!!], and Le Sacre....
A year or so later, he presented all-Schoenberg - 5 Pieces, Pelleas & Melisande and Variations for Orchestra...the Variations were esp good, orchestra was really into it...
The house wasn't totally full, but nearly so, and nobody left, certainly not in any noticeable numbers...I never thought that I would ever hear an all-Schoenberg concert by a major orchestra...it was heaven!! :angel:
I know Levine did catch some grief for this kind of programming...but I put him up for it...I think the orchestra welcomed the challenge...


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Knorf said:


> It was crap when he said it, and it's crap now. I've attended plenty of performances of Schoenberg's music where no one left.
> 
> ETA: for example, I heard the Concertgebuoworkest in Amsterdam perform Schoenberg's Variations for Orchestra, Op. 31, Chailly conducting, and it was _very_ enthusiastically received.
> 
> ...


The naysayers can be ignored since the exaggerated negative statements they post do not reflect the reality that the music of the SVS is regularly performed by a variety of chamber groups, orchestras, and opera companies, as well as the numerous recordings that are released each year.

These recordings and performances involve the some of the best Classical musicians in the world. The proof is in the pudding.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

^^^^Hell yes, some of the world's finest, I mean look who's on piano here. This entranced me last night, especially the singer's performance.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Manxfeeder said:


> As Norman Lebrecht said of Schoenberg, "It is a measure of the immensity of the man's achievement that, 50 years after his death, he can still empty any hall on earth."
> ...
> It's not that they haven't accepted the music of a hundred years ago; it's just that they haven't accepted_ tha_t music of a hundred years ago. People have no problem with, say, Debussy and Ravel.


I think that Lebrecht has a point, and in a way its a compliment to Schoenberg rather than a criticism. I see it as a comment on the uncompromising nature of the music, how it still has the power to elicit strong reactions a century later.

Schoenberg saw self expression as the ultimate goal of his music:

_"Beauty only exists from that moment in which the uncreative begin to miss it. Before that, it does not exist, for the artist does not need it...To him it is enough to have said what had to be said; according to the laws of his nature."_

Schoenberg's music can still be confronting because it speaks to areas of human experience that are not easy to deal with. He was a complicated man who lived through extremely challenging times. If music is to reflect truth and experience, then Schoenberg would be a fake to have created music that always fits neatly into the concert hall alongside other modern classics.

I think that Schoenberg's music holds a place in the repertoire today, but its not popular in the way that Debussy, Ravel, or others like Stravinsky and Bartok are. To many, he is more respected than admired and others come to appreciate him via different routes - to a good deal of listeners, this means being persistent.

At the end of his life, he made a speech expressing his unhappiness about how he'd been treated by the music establishment, but he had no regrets because he never gave up:

_"Please do not call it false modesty if I say: Maybe something has been achieved, but it was not I who deserves the credit for that. The credit must be given to my opponents. They were the ones who really helped me."_ *

I think that if he could see into the future he'd be happier, especially in terms of how his music is so widely available in quality recordings. Due to the controversy of his music, and earlier concerts hijacked by rioters, Schoenberg established a private society where subscribers could come and simply listen. Now listeners can do exactly that, and they can have easy access on their devices.

Listeners who wish to venture into his unique universe will still be confronted with his uncompromising visions - expressive, dramatic, intellectually rigorous and much else as they are.

* Source (text, audio of the speech): https://schoenberg.at/index.php/en/component/content/article?id=954:vr01


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Heck148 said:


> Yes....when Levine first took over at BSO, he programmed a lot of Schoenberg....first concert I heard by him there included Schoenberg 5 Orch Pieces [great performance!!], and Le Sacre....
> A year or so later, he presented all-Schoenberg - 5 Pieces, Pelleas & Melisande and Variations for Orchestra...the Variations were esp good, orchestra was really into it...


I know Levine was very good in this repertoire. How I wish I could have heard some of these concerts!

Another example: I heard the Israel Philharmonic on tour with Mehta, on a program with the main attraction as Mahler 5, understandably so, and it was excellent. But what really blew me away was on the first half: Webern Passacaglia, Op. 1 and Six Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6. Not only did no one walk out on any of it, the Op. 6 received a standing ovation, before intermission!

People who insist there's no audience for music of the Second Viennese School can suck it.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Listeners who are ambivalent about this music may, with encouragement and support, at least try give it a chance. I've seen that happen on this forum during my years here. I've also seen it happen at a chamber music concert I attended.

I specifically attended the concert to hear a piece by Berg, which I had struggled to appreciate. His _String Quartet_ was sandwiched between two warhorses, one of them being Mozart after interval, and I forget the other.

The musicians explained how the themes which go through the work appear at the beginning, illustrating this with excerpts. They also talked about what was going on in Berg's life when he composed the piece. This information was also in the program notes, but the group wanted to justify their choice of playing this music, and help the audience to appreciate it. Before they played, one of them said that she hoped that the audience enjoys the Mozart, but asked them not to be afraid of the Berg, because its also a wonderful piece.

I liked how they acknowledged people's antagonism. Their aim was to help the audience understand the piece. I was familiar with it, but the performance allowed me to appreciate it more. As far as I could judge, it worked for others too. A woman behind me said to her friend after the Berg, "That was atonal but so emotional." A man told the usher when leaving to let the quartet know how he and his wife enjoyed the concert, especially the Berg.


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## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

Manxfeeder said:


> As Norman Lebrecht said of Schoenberg, "It is a measure of the immensity of the man's achievement that, 50 years after his death, he can still empty any hall on earth."


Isn't that how the Simpsons described Philip Glass?


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## Reichstag aus LICHT (Oct 25, 2010)

Knorf said:


> The original play _Wozzeck_ was derived from is entitled _Woyzeck_, yes. But the opera is _Wozzeck_.


I know... I was being tongue-in-cheek, which is why I signed my post "G[eorg] Büchner"


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## Enthusiast (Mar 5, 2016)

Knorf said:


> The original play _Wozzeck_ was derived from is entitled _Woyzeck_, yes. But the opera is _Wozzeck_.


Rather like Otello and Othello.


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## Kreisler jr (Apr 21, 2021)

Otello is the regular Italian getting rid of any th, ch, ph, 
Wozzeck is apparently a kind of editing error in the belated first printed edition of the fragment that appeared over 40 years after Büchner's death. (Büchner is a bit of local hero where I come form, schools are named after him. They don't teach you about Liebig experimenting on people, though)

As exaggerated as the difficulties some audiences have with some 2nd Viennese piece 100 years later, I think it is not insignificant that if one looks at historical reviews, one finds similarly puzzled/negative ones for e.g. Debussy and Stravinsky. And even in the 1950s and 60s there were many listeners who found some of their music unbearably modern and many traditional conductors mostly avoided them. But in the last decades Debussy, Ravel, most of Bartok and pre-1940s Stravinsky have become standard repertoire and most audiences don't find them particularly tough going which is not true for 2nd Viennese School, a lot of which is still tough for many audiences despite having become standard among musicians.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> Otello is the regular Italian getting rid of any th, ch, ph,
> Wozzeck is apparently a kind of editing error in the belated first printed edition of the fragment that appeared over 40 years after Büchner's death. (Büchner is a bit of local hero where I come form, schools are named after him. They don't teach you about Liebig experimenting on people, though)
> 
> As exaggerated as the difficulties some audiences have with some 2nd Viennese piece 100 years later, I think it is not insignificant that if one looks at historical reviews, one finds similarly puzzled/negative ones for e.g. Debussy and Stravinsky. And even in the 1950s and 60s there were many listeners who found some of their music unbearably modern and many traditional conductors mostly avoided them. But in the last decades Debussy, Ravel, most of Bartok and pre-1940s Stravinsky have become standard repertoire and most audiences don't find them particularly tough going which is not true for 2nd Viennese School, a lot of which is still tough for many audiences despite having become standard among musicians.


I am not sure what your point is, the music by the SVS is regularly performed and recorded. Whether it is embraced as much as other music is irrelevant; it has an audience. Debussy and Ravel are not as widely popular as Beethoven and Mozart. So what?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Kreisler jr said:


> As exaggerated as the difficulties some audiences have with some 2nd Viennese piece 100 years later, I think it is not insignificant that if one looks at historical reviews, one finds similarly puzzled/negative ones for e.g. Debussy and Stravinsky. And even in the 1950s and 60s there were many listeners who found some of their music unbearably modern...


There were even reviewers who considered Brahms symphonies or Puccini operas to be unbearably modern, around the turn of the 20th c. (especially in the U.S.)!


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## Mandryka (Feb 22, 2013)

Knorf said:


> There were even reviewers who considered Brahms symphonies or Puccini operas to be unbearably modern, around the turn of the 20th c. (especially in the U.S.)!


I'd be interested in a reference for the Brahms. Some Puccini operas sound quite modern to me (Fanciulla for example.) And maybe verismo was seen as a challenge to tradition.


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## SanAntone (May 10, 2020)

Knorf said:


> There were even reviewers who considered Brahms symphonies or Puccini operas to be unbearably modern, around the turn of the 20th c. (especially in the U.S.)!


I'd hate to hear what they said about Alban Berg's operas.


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## fbjim (Mar 8, 2021)

If you want a real school of music which caused astonishing amounts of ink spilled back then, there's always Wagner


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Mandryka said:


> I'd be interested in a reference for the Brahms. Some Puccini operas sound quite modern to me (Fanciulla for example.) And maybe verismo was seen as a challenge to tradition.


You can find many examples in Slonimsky's _Lexicon of Musical Invective_. Here are a few good ones.

Berlin critic:
"In search of ear-rending dissonances, torturous transitions, harsh modulations, and repugnant contortions of melody and rhythm, Chopin is altogether indefatigable."

None other than Eduard Hanslick:
"Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto gives us for the first time the hideous notion that there can be music that stinks to the ear."

Boston reviewer for _The Evening Transcript_:
"It must be admitted that to the larger part of our public, Brahms is still an incomprehensible terror."

Apparently another Boston reviewer was of the opinion that signs on exits in concert halls should be posted "Exit in Case of Brahms."

There are tons of these.

What's difference between those critics' forgotten responses, and those remembered and held against Stravinsky, Schoenberg, et al?

Simple: the historically unprecedented rise of mass media, and the rush to monetize the lowest common denominator. Before mass media, no one outside of those cities in the examples I posted likely read the reviews-at least not until Slonimsky dug them up-and so their contemporaneous impact was quite limited. You could be panned in Vienna but find success in Leipzig, for example.

That all changed with mass media, and then the Internet sprayed gasoline onto the mass media bonfire.

So now, any dilettante with a website and an opinion who happens to have been lucky enough to position himself in the right place and the right time-regardless of holding or lacking any true credentials, or possessing basic honesty and decency-can now be a major "influencer."

In the past, eloquent diatribes and cleverly worded invective would get a couple hundred or maybe a couple thousand readers to buy a paper, but the actual column would usually be swiftly forgotten. Now, such a writer's name might get mentioned more often on Talk Classical than any other single critic, from past or present, over and over. And all because he "seems so jovial," and is "entertaining." It frankly makes me sick.

With mass media, all narratives become more easily entrenched and much harder to dislodge, regardless of whether the opinion would otherwise have been fleeting, flatly erroneous, farcical, or simply arbitrary. Music is not immune to fake news. (I encourage the curious to read up on one Ralph Peer.)

For example, it's no coincidence that the "Great Conductors of All Time[SUP]tm[/SUP]" (to a certain mindset) are almost exclusively those whose careers coincided with the mass production of records, because they were exhaustively lauded and promoted by labels in a vain attempt to monetarily keep up with the superstar phenomenon found in popular music. It's understandable, to a point. But the Greatness[SUP]tm[/SUP] of those "super-"conductors lives on. "Giants once walked the Earth!" is what I read from one classical music fan breathlessly extolling the virtues of Reiner, Toscanini, Stokowski, and the like, while bashing the next generation as lacking. Typical, really.

Nostalgia is part of human nature, but mass media made it potentially dangerous. The Internet made it a weapon.

And classical music has frankly never recovered; if anything, things are much worse now. As an example, you'll never see another bald, ugly, or seriously overweight conductor of a major orchestra again. Even composers who get the most attention have to basically look like Eric Whitacre (and compose nothing that would challenge anyone whose main musical interests lie well within the most easily consumed pop music, but I digress). Anyone with a chance to be a star conductor, or a concerto or opera soloist: you've absolutely got to have serious, poster-friendly sex appeal, and if you can actually play or sing, that's just a bonus. Ugly people need not apply; they're welcome to sit in the back of the second violins.

Anyway, to get back to my main point, the likes of Stravinsky and Schoenberg were not in any way bigger jerks to the audience, nor more selfish in feeling the need to challenge their own creativity, nor did they wish to just push ugliness into the world, any more than any other past composers, especially those of the Romantic period (certainly Beethoven forward.) No, expression and individual creativity were everything to them, just as they were to any composer ever, if they got the chance. If anything, tradition was far more important to Schoenberg than it was to Debussy or Stravinsky.

Their biggest problem by far, from a classical music point of view, was that with mass media came enormous and probably permanent changes to how the public uses and values music. Once, it was a transcendental, mostly just auditory, in-person experience, a primary activity to engage the mind and imagination. Now, it's sonic wall paper, more ignored than actually listened to.

But time marches on, and, lucky for us, classical music isn't quite dead, yet. Furthermore, it's really clear that now the music of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern among many others is far more widely accepted, more often performed and recorded, and the objections are getting much fainter. It's simply not such a big controversy anymore.


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## thejewk (Sep 13, 2020)

I love almost everything I've seriously listened to by Berg and Schoenberg, and I greatly admire Webern without yet loving him. One of my projects this year was to commit serious time and study to getting to know their works.

Unfortunately, or fortunately considering how good he was, Bach happened, and now I have Gardiner's take on the cantatas en route, so SVS will have to wait a little longer. 

I have managed to listen to Wozzeck at least 10 times this year though, so not all bad, and I watched a performance of Lulu on YouTube for the first time which was also superb. I look forward to many happy hours in their company.


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## Sid James (Feb 7, 2009)

Kreisler jr said:


> As exaggerated as the difficulties some audiences have with some 2nd Viennese piece 100 years later, I think it is not insignificant that if one looks at historical reviews, one finds similarly puzzled/negative ones for e.g. Debussy and Stravinsky. And even in the 1950s and 60s there were many listeners who found some of their music unbearably modern and many traditional conductors mostly avoided them. But in the last decades Debussy, Ravel, most of Bartok and pre-1940s Stravinsky have become standard repertoire and most audiences don't find them particularly tough going which is not true for 2nd Viennese School, a lot of which is still tough for many audiences despite having become standard among musicians.


I think that the Second Viennese School has had a different provenance, if you like, compared to others in the modern classics category. Ravel and Stravinsky where enormously successful, they had many works enter the repertoire immediately. Debussy had some hits and misses, but by the end of his life he was establishment. One of his biggest successes, both with the public and critics, was Pelleas. Bartok was probably the most similar to Schoenberg, but he had success right at the end with the Concerto for Orchestra.

As others have pointed out, Berg's Violin Concerto is the most widely played and recorded serial piece. He has always been the most popular with audiences, Wozzeck caused a sensation similar to Salome, and has been performed ever since.

Schoenberg's trajectory was complicated and, as he spells out in his speech of 1947, fraught with struggle. He had what could be called a pyrrhic victory with Gurreleider, because by the time it was performed to enormous acclaim, his style had completely changed direction. I think that there is a stark contrast between Schoenberg and Stravinsky during their years in the USA. Schoenberg was forced there by necessity, still had to rely on teaching to make a living, and yet was cut off from his connections in Europe. Most of Stravinsky's commissions where already coming from the USA by the time he moved there, and once there the demand for his music continued.

I think that in some part due to his personality, Webern was the quiet achiever of the group. He persisted in efforts to publish his music in Europe and in the USA, and also had a career as a conductor. Under the Nazis, his activities where limited to teaching and editing scores. Had he survived past 1945, he could have continued where he had left off. I think he could have been to serialism what Varese was to electronic music. A pioneer, and a sort of elder statesman for the younger generation of composers.



Knorf said:


> But time marches on, and, lucky for us, classical music isn't quite dead, yet. Furthermore, it's really clear that now the music of Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern among many others is far more widely accepted, more often performed and recorded, and the objections are getting much fainter. It's simply not such a big controversy anymore.


While its important to look back, live performance is not as important to the dissemination of music as it used to be. The concert hall was a creation of the industrial revolution, and now we're into the digital revolution. In between, recordings changed everything, by the 1970's much music of the modern period - including those which had entered the performance repertoire - where already available on vinyl.

The live performance scene is also more diverse now. Ensembles specialising in modern and contemporary music have emerged, and festivals such as those organised by ISCM have continued to provide an important venue for it.


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