# SS 24.07.21 - Haydn #89



## Mika

A continuation of the Saturday Symphonies Tradition:

Welcome to another weekend of symphonic listening!

For your listening pleasure this weekend:

Joseph Haydn (1732 - 1809))

Symphony No. 89 in F major

I. Vivace
II. Andante con moto 
III. Minuet
IV. Vivace assai

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Post what recording you are going to listen to giving details of Orchestra / Conductor / Chorus / Soloists etc - Enjoy!


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## Mika

We still have some Haydn symphonies left . I will open my Fischer box again:


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## Rogerx

Dorati for me later.


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## Malx

I'll give my Hogwood box a miss this time around and go for two others on my shelves:



















May be tomorrow as today has a pretty full schedule.


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## Art Rock

Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra (Böhm, DG), from CD.


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## hammeredklavier

doesn't this




remind you of Mozart K.503/i?


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## cougarjuno

I'm going to go the Naxos route with this one, since it happened to be on top of a huge pile of Haydn discs.
Nicolaus Esterhazy Orchestra conducted by Bela Drahos.


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## Haydn man

Rogerx said:


> Dorati for me later.


Yes it will be Dorati for me also
Will try to find some time to give some other versions a go


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## CnC Bartok

Art Rock has reminded me I do have some excellent individual CDs of Haydn Symphonies, including that same Bohm disc. I'll put that one on!


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## Enthusiast

I listened to the Fischer.


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## Kreisler jr

This is maybe the lightest late (82 onwards) Haydn symphony with the 2nd and 4th movement being borrowed from a concert for lira organizzata Haydn had written ca. 1786 for the King of Naples albeit he beefed them both up in instrumentation and with a "minore" central section.

However, the first movement is quite brillant as the development gives the material from the exposition in almost exactly the same order, so in a way it is more like a recap "only" distorted by modulation whereas the recapitulation changes the order of the themes
(Rosen mentions this in The Classical Style, it's p.174 in the German pbck edition, so good luck finding it in the original). Again evidence how flexible "classical forms" could be in practice.


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## hammeredklavier

Kreisler jr said:


> However, the first movement is quite brillant as the development gives the material from the exposition in almost exactly the same order, so in a way it is more like a recap "only" distorted by modulation whereas the recapitulation changes the order of the themes


A similar idea is present in Mozart's overture-like symphony, K.318, btw. It's a "cyclic" symphony with the concluding (3rd) movement acting essentially as the recapitulation for the 1st movement. "... the music segues to the third movement, which continues the development of the first theme from the first movement before a "reverse recapitulation" is performed where the two themes of the first movement are recapitulated in opposite order."


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## EdwardBast

hammeredklavier said:


> doesn't this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> remind you of Mozart K.503/i?


No, it doesn't. They momentarily share a rhythmic motive that's exceedingly commonplace. You really can't tell that the resemblance is trivial?


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## Johnnie Burgess

hammeredklavier said:


> A similar idea is present in Mozart's overture-like symphony, K.318, btw. It's a "cyclic" symphony with the concluding (3rd) movement acting essentially as the recapitulation for the 1st movement. "... the music segues to the third movement, which continues the development of the first theme from the first movement before a "reverse recapitulation" is performed where the two themes of the first movement are recapitulated in opposite order."


Which version will you listen to? Or do you have to go into every Joseph Haydn thread and compare the work Hayden to another composer?


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## hammeredklavier

EdwardBast said:


> No, it doesn't. They momentarily share a rhythmic motive that's exceedingly commonplace. You really can't tell that the resemblance is trivial?


Can you show me another piece that has it, if it's so "exceedingly commonplace"? I didn't mean anything negative with that post, btw. I just added it as a "fun fact". But I think you're right in saying that it is trivial.



Johnnie Burgess said:


> do you have to go into every Joseph Haydn thread and compare the work Hayden to another composer?


I was just commenting on the work's characteristics, (which is why I added "btw" and I figured that was what this thread was about; "commenting on the work"), did I express any negativity? Do you have to get this "sensitive" about Joseph Haydn? :cheers:



Johnnie Burgess said:


> Which version will you listen to?


Orchestra of the 18th Century, conducted by Frans Brüggen.


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## Johnnie Burgess

Ernst Märzendorfer and the Vienna Chamber Orchestra


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## EdwardBast

hammeredklavier said:


> Can you show me another piece that has it, if it's so "exceedingly commonplace"? I didn't mean anything negative with that post, btw. I just added it as a "fun fact". But I think you're right in saying that it is trivial.


You mean besides Beethoven's 5th?  There must be hundreds of them. It's a simple way of focusing energy on the next downbeat. And it's not a fun fact. It's just another twitch in your reflexive everybody owes everything to Mozart fantasy.


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## Woodduck

EdwardBast said:


> It's just another twitch in your reflexive everybody owes everything to Mozart fantasy.


Really, Edward! No one believes that. What's indisputable, though, is that everybody would have owed everything to Mozart if he had lived longer.


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## hammeredklavier

EdwardBast said:


> *everybody owes everything to Mozart* fantasy.





Woodduck said:


> *everybody would have owed everything to Mozart* if he had lived longer.


No, I swear I don't think that way, lovely friends, Mr. EdwardBast and Mr. Woodduck! 👼
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppTToo8lrMQ&t=6m6s (think of Mozart K.465/i at 6:06)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=izkCiEvn5Tg&t=7s (think of the first movements of both Beethoven's 1st and Mozart's 36th)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXdMYmJS89c&t=1m30s (think of Mozart K.550/iv)
Likewise, why would I talk of "Mozart's borrowings from other composers", if I really believed that?



hammeredklavier said:


> I don't ever think Mozart would have achieved "unique sound" of late Beethoven even if he lived longer. Claims like that ("had he lived long enough he would have surpassed all other composers at doing whatever it is they did") disregard and disrespect the individuality of composers such as Wagner, Mahler, Chopin, Bruckner.


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## Woodduck

hammeredklavier said:


> Likewise, why would I talk of Mozart's borrowings from other composers, if I really believed that?


You mean Mozart's influence wasn't great enough to work retroactively?

Say it isn't so!


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## hammeredklavier

Woodduck said:


> You mean Mozart's influence wasn't great enough to work retroactively?
> Say it isn't so!


LOL! I always love you and your sense of humor, Mr. Woodduck! :angel::angel::angel:


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## Woodduck

hammeredklavier said:


> LOL! I always love you and your sense of humor, Mr. Woodduck! :angel::angel::angel:


It's easy to do standup on TC. The supply of material is limitless.


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## Merl

I'll go for a bit of Fey.


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## starthrower

BTW, what happened to realdealblues? Is he on permanent vacation? I don't think I've listened to Haydn's no.89. Will check some recordings at YouTube.


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## cougarjuno

starthrower said:


> BTW, what happened to realdealblues? Is he on permanent vacation? I don't think I've listened to Haydn's no.89. Will check some recordings at YouTube.


We don't know what happened to realdealblues. Mika and I have alternated for the past several months now.


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