# Poll: Bach Mass in B Minor vs St. Matthew Passion



## Dustin

Which of these epic masterworks do you prefer and why? I'm only listened to them each a few times so I haven't been able to digest which one I like better yet. I wasn't able to find any similar threads comparing these works.


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## Stargazer

Mass in B minor, hands down. It just has more parts I really really like than the other one.


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## tdc

I consider both among the greatest works of music ever composed, but I prefer the St. Matthew Passion. It seems more fiery, colorful and dynamic to me somehow and my favorite movements from it I like slightly more than my favorite movements from the Mass in B minor.


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## KenOC

I've always liked the music in the St Matthew Passion, but it's way too long for me! And all that recitative... So a friend on another forum put together this playlist, which is in the order the pieces appear in the work. 54 minutes, and all the finest of the fine!

Kommt, Ihr Töchter, Helft Mir Klagen
Buss Und Reu
Blute Nur, Du Liebes Herz
Erkenne Mich, Mein Hüter
Ich Will Hier Bei Dir Stehen
So Ist Mein Jesus Nun Gefangen
O Mensch, Bewein' Dein Sünde Gross
Ach, Nun Ist Mein Jesus Hin
Erbarme Dich
Aus Liebe Will Mein Heiland Sterben
Mache Dich, Mein Herze, Rein
Wir Setzen Uns Mit Tränen Nieder


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## korenbloem

I love them both. But Hohe Messe hands down, no doubt!


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## Manxfeeder

St. Matthew Passion, definitely. Bach lets us go through Passion Week and get it right this time.


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## Selby

The length of the Passion has prevented me absorbing it as well as I'd like. This shall be remedied soon.


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## Feathers

I chose Mass in B minor, but this may be due to the fact that I've seen the mass live but not the passion. Hearing it live really made a difference to me. I do love both though.


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## Celloman

I voted for the B minor mass. They're both great, though!


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## tdc

KenOC said:


> I've always liked the music in the St Matthew Passion, but it's way too long for me!


Yes, I usually just listen to my favorite movements of both the Mass in B minor and St. Matthew Passion. I don't think there is anything wrong with this (of course it is also great to listen to the works all the way through I just don't think it is necessary to do so to enjoy the many beautiful individual movements in these works). I based my choice for favorite on the work that contains the most music I like, not what I think works best as 1 whole work from start to finish.


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## SottoVoce

If anyone can afford a full, serious listening of the Mass, here is a good video to go by; it is a scrolling score that follows you throughout the whole thing. The whole channel also has the Goldberg Variations, the two WTC volumes, and the Art of Fugue. A godsend to Bach and score lovers alike.


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## Art Rock

The Matthew Passion by far. I listen to it every year with Easter - length is not an issue at all for me!


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## DavidA

The St Matthew is simply one of the greatest works of music ever. The Mass sums up Bach's work.

Both astounding works. But if pushed I would prefer the St Matthew.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde

St. John passion! .....okay okay St. Matthew...


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## GiulioCesare

Messiah.

Seriously now, St Matthew Passion. Mass in B Minor is overrated in my opinion.


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## DaDirkNL

St Matthew Passion. I don't really know the Mass in B minor so well.


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## Winterreisender

Neither rank among my favourite Bach pieces. I prefer something smaller and more intimate, perhaps the Magnificat in D, or maybe a Cantata or two.


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## DavidA

The St Matthew Passion is one of the greatest works of a composed by anyone. Phenomenal!


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## ArtMusic

Mass in B minor. As great as the St. Matthew Passion is, it doesn't meausre up to the B minor. St. Matthew has all the recitatives, and repitive chorale (I'm not talking about the chorus, but the chorale which the congregation would have joined in), but of course, its arias are superb. B minor however is on a higher plane from start to finish.


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## Dustin

ArtMusic said:


> Mass in B minor. As great as the St. Matthew Passion is, it doesn't meausre up to the B minor. St. Matthew has all the recitatives, and repitive chorale (I'm not talking about the chorus, but the chorale which the congregation would have joined in), but of course, its arias are superb. B minor however is on a higher plane from start to finish.


After going back and listening to the St. Matthew Passion, I am also rather annoyed with the recitative-like parts which are often mixed in with great orchestral and singing sections. This is no way influences my overall opinion of the work but it makes it pretty difficult to wade through the relatively uninteresting moments. I have always preferred operas and other works that have the recitative clearly separate from the orchestral passages. Rossini's Barber of Seville is another one that annoys the heck out me because I'm constantly trying to figure out how to skip the recitative which does nothing for me unless I'm watching the opera.


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## dgee

You realise, guys, what the Passions are and why those recits and repetitive chorales are there? Problem with setting the Passion, I'm afraid ;-)

For me, the music of Matthew Passion is greater than the B Minor mass, but I REALLY love the St John Passion most of all


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## KenOC

Dustin said:


> After going back and listening to the St. Matthew Passion, I am also rather annoyed with the recitative-like parts which are often mixed in with great orchestral and singing sections.


Easy enough to deal with. Here's my patented* 58-minute version, just the good parts. A great playlist.

01 Part 1 Herr, unser Herrscher, dessen Ruhm 9:10
07 Part 1 Von den Stricken meiner Sunden 4:33
09 Part 1 Ich folge dir gleichfalls 3:48
11 Part 1 Wer hat dich so geschlagen 1:23
13 Part 1 Ach, mein Sinn 2:36
15 Part 2 Christus, der uns selig macht 0:55
19 Part 2 Betrachte, meine Seel', mit aengstlichem Vergnugen 2:34
22 Part 2 Durch dein Gefangnis, Gottes Sohn 1:00
24 Part 2 Eilt, ihr angefocht'nen Seelen 4:13
28 Part 2 Er nahm alles wohl in acht 1:01
30 Part 2 Es ist vollbracht! 6:09
32 Part 2 Mein teurer Heiland, lass dich fragen 4:29
35 Part 2 Zerfliese, mein Herze, in Fluten der Zahren 6:51
39 Part 2 Ruht wohl, ihr heiligen Gebeine 7:04
40 Part 2 Ach, Herr, lass dein' lib' Engelein 2:09

I have a similar playlist for the St. John Passion...

*Actually thanks to a member of another forum.


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## science

I went with the Mass, but I know more about it so it's not fair. Where can I find a good analysis of the Matthew Passion?


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## science

dgee said:


> You realise, guys, what the Passions are and why those recits and repetitive chorales are there? Problem with setting the Passion, I'm afraid ;-)
> 
> For me, the music of Matthew Passion is greater than the B Minor mass, but I REALLY love the St John Passion most of all


That's interesting! I also prefer the John Passion to the Matthew Passion. I'm sure I'm missing most of the greatness of both, so I don't take my preference too seriously! But the John Passion really is a good time. I'd like to know why the Matthew Passion is the more popular.


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## Dustin

science said:


> That's interesting! I also prefer the John Passion to the Matthew Passion. I'm sure I'm missing most of the greatness of both, so I don't take my preference too seriously! But the John Passion really is a good time. I'd like to know why the Matthew Passion is the more popular.


Interesting takes! You two are the first I've come across who say that. I'm not familiar with it at all but look forward to knowing it better soon.


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## Dustin

KenOC said:


> Easy enough to deal with. Here's my patented* 58-minute version, just the good parts. A great playlist.
> 
> 01 Part 1 Herr, unser Herrscher, dessen Ruhm 9:10
> 07 Part 1 Von den Stricken meiner Sunden 4:33
> 09 Part 1 Ich folge dir gleichfalls 3:48
> 11 Part 1 Wer hat dich so geschlagen 1:23
> 13 Part 1 Ach, mein Sinn 2:36
> 15 Part 2 Christus, der uns selig macht 0:55
> 19 Part 2 Betrachte, meine Seel', mit aengstlichem Vergnugen 2:34
> 22 Part 2 Durch dein Gefangnis, Gottes Sohn 1:00
> 24 Part 2 Eilt, ihr angefocht'nen Seelen 4:13
> 28 Part 2 Er nahm alles wohl in acht 1:01
> 30 Part 2 Es ist vollbracht! 6:09
> 32 Part 2 Mein teurer Heiland, lass dich fragen 4:29
> 35 Part 2 Zerfliese, mein Herze, in Fluten der Zahren 6:51
> 39 Part 2 Ruht wohl, ihr heiligen Gebeine 7:04
> 40 Part 2 Ach, Herr, lass dein' lib' Engelein 2:09
> 
> I have a similar playlist for the St. John Passion...
> 
> *Actually thanks to a member of another forum.


Ha I like it! Let's get the St. John Passion Sparknotes while your at it if you could.


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## KenOC

Dustin said:


> Ha I like it! Let's get the St. John Passion Sparknotes while your at it if you could.


Actually that _was _the St. John, sorry! Here's the St. Matthew, 53 minutes:

1-01 1.Chorus I & II, Kommt, ihr Töchter 6:59
1-06 6.Aria (Alt). Buß und Reu 4:21
1-08 8.Aria (Sopran), Blute nur, du liebes Herz 4:26
1-15 15.Choral , Erkenne mich, mein Hüter 1:00
1-27 27.Aria a doi Cori So ist mein Jesus 4:34
1-29 29.Choral, O Mensch, bewein' dein Sünde 5:40
2-01 30.Aria (Alt, Chorus I & II), Ach! Nun 3:48
2-10 39.Aria (Alt), Erbarme dich 6:38
2-20 49.Aria (Sopran), Aus Liebe will mein Heiland 4:44
3-13 65.Aria (Baß), Mache dich, mein Herze,rein 5:50
3-16 68.Chorus I & II, Wir setzen uns mit Tränen nieder 5:19


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## Woodduck

For me the _B-Minor Mass _is a flight among the stars - the most ecstatic and sublime choral work (maybe any kind of work!) there is. During my student days in Boston I tried not to miss a performance anywhere, by anyone. I've heard the _St. Matthew_ only once live, and on several recordings. A great, often moving work - but, for this escapee from Christianity, all that pietistic agonizing over "my Jesu" (and that garrulous Evangelist) stretched over three hours makes me want to bolt for the chapel doors and smell the lilacs.

BTW, I prefer the St. John Passion, as do some others here. A bit more dramatic, with those exciting, agitated choral outbursts, and shorter.


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## Svelte Silhouette

B for me and my favourite is Frans Bruggen on Phillips


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## science

PoisonIV said:


> B for me and my favourite is Frans Bruggen on Phillips


I haven't heard that one. What others have you heard?

I've heard Richter's famous one from 1962, a less famous live one conducted by Richter, Klemperer, Gardiner, Hengelbrock, and Müller-Brühl. I can't decide which one I like better.


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## SONNET CLV

The _Saint Matthew_ at Easter time, the _B Minor Mass_ for the rest of the year ... with the appropriate Cantatas thrown in on the corresponding feast days.


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## science

SONNET CLV said:


> The _Saint Matthew_ at Easter time, the _B Minor Mass_ for the rest of the year ... with the appropriate Cantatas thrown in on the corresponding feast days.


Are there any churches that actually do this?


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## Blake

Were Bach's masses actually performed in mass or were they like a sacred concert? With around 2 hours of music, where is the time for anything else? Unless the mass was half a day long....


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## KenOC

Bach's best-known mass was the Mass in B-minor, a Catholic mass (a so-called Missa tota). Why Bach, a Lutheran, wrote it is uncertain. It is usually considered too long for church use, and was not performed in its entirety until over a century after his death.


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## hpowders

I voted for the Mass in b minor. The St. Matthew Passion is too much of a downer for me, although there are some arias that are incredible in the latter.


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## Blake

KenOC said:


> Bach's best-known mass was the Mass in B-minor, a Catholic mass (a so-called Missa tota). Why Bach, a Lutheran, wrote it is uncertain. It is usually considered too long for church use, and was not performed in its entirety until over a century after his death.


Thanks, K. The length of these beauties seemed odd. And the St Mathews is over 2 hours... I'd go to mass too if they were just playing Bach concerts.


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## KenOC

The Wiki article has some speculation of why Bach wrote the Mass, and why it's so long.

The two big passions are another matter. I believe they were both performed in his lifetime, but I'm not certain what kind of occasion would call for them. They are not masses but oratorios. The St Matthew Passion was first performed on Good Friday, so that may be a hint.


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## KenOC

Vesuvius said:


> Thanks, K. The length of these beauties seemed odd. And the St Mathews is over 2 hours... I'd go to mass too if they were just playing Bach concerts.


If the Passions seem too long to you, like they do to me, I've created playlists with only the good bits. Under an hour each. Just posted them. Highly recommended!

https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/bach-s-passions-reader-s-digest-versions


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## Blake

KenOC said:


> If the Passions seem too long to you, like they do to me, I've created playlists with only the good bits. Under an hour each. Just posted them. Highly recommended!
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/kenocstuff/bach-s-passions-reader-s-digest-versions


I don't find them too long, particularly since they were written by one of the greatest musical geniuses of all time. Thanks for the outreach and info, though. 
:tiphat:


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