# Wagnerian plots mixed with modern fantasy



## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

I wonder if anyone else has noticed it, but George Martin's fabulous epic _A Song of Ice and Fire_ has, I think, too many of blatant allusions to Der Ring des Nibelungen for it to be a coincidence. I've talked of it to my friends, but there's no one among them familiar with both Wagner and Martin.

What do you think?

(I'm talking of Martin's books, not the TV series which went too far away from the original plot)

Of course, it _might_ be partly my imagination, because if I'm right, that would mean George Martin shares my opinion of Siegfried (the character).


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## mountmccabe (May 1, 2013)

Interesting! I have not read the George RR Martin series, nor heard of a connection. I'd be interested to hear what others think.

Separately, is anyone familiar with The Gap Cycle by Stephen R Donaldson? This epic science fiction series reportedly takes quite a bit of inspiration from Wagner's Ring as well. With character names almost entirely puns such as Warden Dios, Holt Fasner (nicknamed "The Dragon,") and Godsen Frik I believe it. It is not a direct retelling, apparently combining and transforming characters but I'm still looking forward to it.

The Wikipedia page for the cycle has more, but I'm not going to read it too closely yet.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

I have read Mr. Martin's books, and frankly I don't see any overt similarity with Wagner's Ring, or indeed with Norse / German mithology.

About "The Gap Cycle"... yes, but the main problem here is the lack of inspiration. I think Mr. Donaldson wrote a great epic fantasy with the first Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (even, to a certain extent, with the second Chronicles), but the rest of his production is rather weak, in my view.


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## Autumn Leaves (Jan 3, 2014)

Wow! Thanks for recommending Donaldson's cycle. I haven't heard of that one.

In George Martin's story we have, among the major things (WARNING! SPOILERS AHEAD):

1) A warrior woman named Brienne. Who is assigned to guard a man, who's his own sister's lover, by the man's enemies, and ends up being on his side rather than against him. Oh yes, and the man and his sister have a son who is a total jerk, to put it very, very, very mildly, and constantly bullies a certain dwarf.
2) Two brothers called Gregor and Sandor, both over seven feet tall. Gregor is one hundred percent evil and has almost killed Sandor on several occasions. Sandor isn't the nicest person in the world either, but we can be fairly certain (it's like hinted but never spoken out straight) he's head over heels in love with a lovely pretty-eyed maiden who has two brothers (one more gentle, one more fierce) and a sister and whose castle's name begins with W and ends with ll.


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## anmhe (Feb 10, 2015)

Here's a sad realization: Twilight's plot is a bastardized Fliegende Holländer.

It's a sad realization because I have to admit in a public forum that I've seen Twilight. All of them. I will never get those hours back.


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## DavidA (Dec 14, 2012)

anmhe said:


> Here's a sad realization: *Twilight's plot is a bastardized Fliegende Holländer.*
> 
> It's a sad realization because I have to admit in a public forum that I've seen Twilight. All of them. I will never get those hours back.


What's new? "Wagner claimed in his 1870 autobiography Mein Leben that he had been inspired to write the opera following a stormy sea crossing he made from Riga to London in July and August 1839. In his 1843 Autobiographic Sketch, Wagner acknowledged he had taken the story from Heinrich Heine's retelling of the legend in his 1833 satirical novel The Memoirs of Mister von Schnabelewopski (Aus den Memoiren des Herrn von Schnabelewopski)"
Most plots are borrowed from somewhere. Shakespeare was a past master of it.


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