# Ferdinand Ries and Carl Czerny



## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I have been spending a lot of time listening to both these pupils of Beethoven and they really are quite good symphonists. It takes a few listens but they grow on you with charming sincerity of what classical music is all about.











Of course heavily influenced by Beethoven but pleasing to the ear nonetheless. Are there any other fans of these two out there, somewhere?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm a fan of Ferdinand Ries. When I learnt piano I was somewhat deterred by Czerny's music :lol:


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

Isn't the orchestration for the Czerny beefy? And I like it all beefy with the Ries slightly more soothing but with an acerbic edge.


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

Ferdinand Ries is a composer worth knowing. I have all his symphonies and they are pretty great. I don't know much about Czerny's music.


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## beetzart (Dec 30, 2009)

I think they are both catastrophically underrated, or overshadowed. If it was possible to compile a top ten list of understated composers these two would be right up there.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Ries, eh? I will research him. I'll see if any critic has been nuts over his music.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Ries Piano Concerto*

See following post I submitted about Ries _Eighth Piano Concerto_: http://www.talkclassical.com/32421-future-classical-music-6.html#post671416


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## ScipioAfricanus (Jan 7, 2010)

I love czerny's piano sonatas. they are like a tamed beethoven.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

beetzart said:


> I think they are both catastrophically underrated, or overshadowed. If it was possible to compile a top ten list of understated composers these two would be right up there.


The Great is the enemy of the good. From our vantage point in history we see the peaks of the past and tend to completely lose sight of the lower, but pleasing, mountains. In their own time they were well regarded.


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## clavichorder (May 2, 2011)

I've heard Czerny's more serious works that aren't etudes, and I have enjoyed them, but found them comparatively academic and long winded to other contemporaries. 

Ries on the other hand, is very interesting. I enjoy his piano sonatas as well.

I like Hummel, Field, and von Weber a lot more than Czerny though. I prefer Dussek to Czerny as well, though he is of a slightly older style.

Hummel and Field in particular, I like a lot, because Hummel has good themes and a fascinating busyness about his music that I find exhillerating, and good overall coherency, whereas Field has lovely simple themes and is VERY unpredictable and fascinating in the fact that he wanders all over the place but you enjoy the ride.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Without dissing Ries or Czerny, I tend to prefer Hummel, who was eight years Beethoven's junior. Although only his trumpet concerto is well known (and gives Haydn more than a run for the money), he has some excellent piano concertos. His A minor concerto from 1816 is quite enjoyable. Here's Commellato playing it:






He wrote not a single symphony!


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## scratchgolf (Nov 15, 2013)

I have all Ries' symphonies on CD, yet haven't listened enough to form an opinion. Perhaps it's time to revisit.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2014)

I'm dead keen on Ries and Czerny, but I suppose it is the specific connection with Beethoven that makes their music "resonate" with me. Still, that said, I think they made some good work. 
A couple of weeks ago I switched on the radio and chanced upon a concert already underway of what was obviously a "classical symphony" that I didn't recognize but I would have sworn it sounded like "refracted" Beethoven. I listened on and heard what I would call total "plagiarism" (rip-offs of Beethoven's 5th) until the end and then discovered via the commentator it was by Ries!


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I have the Ries symphonies and like them, but I like his piano trios even more. Some really exhilarating music!

I love what Beethoven said about Ries: "He imitates me too much." 

I haven't listened to much Czerny, but I totally agree with KenOC about Hummel. His work is variable but a lot of it is first rate. And another fine composer of the time was Mehul.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Woodduck said:


> ... And another fine composer of the time was Mehul.


Agree on Mehul. His last two symphonies were only recently discovered. All four are very good and available as a set on CD. Still, the only piece that gets much exposure is "Young Henry's Hunt."


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

The cpo box set of Ries's "Complete Symphonies" proves indispensable. I spent a week listening to the eight symphonies in numbered order (which is not necessarily compositional order) and then in compositional order.









I rather enjoyed them. The Fifth proved especially interesting. Where have we heard that da-da-da dum theme before? What was most startling to me was learning that Ries's Fifth was actually his second composed symphony. Through a quirk of publication fate it ended up with the number 5 behind it, and will forever be linked (especially because of that theme!) to Beethoven's greater work. Alas, poor Ries. Had the work been chronologically numbered, we might just pass right over that da-da-da dum. But in a "Fifth Symphony" it becomes inescapable. (I know that if I ever write a Fifth Symphony -- unfortunately I have four yet to pen before that -- I will do everything I can to avoid da-da-da dum. I may not even use any Gs or E-flats. Or three eighth notes in a row. Or a fermata. Or ....)

I don't know of a complete recorded set of Czerny's Symphonies, but I have the two SIGNUM discs featuring 1 & 5 on SIG X89-00 and 2 & Piano Concerto in C, Op.153 on SIG X78-00, and I hope SIGNUM will continue to feature Czerny's music, especially the complete set of symphonies.







and








I also have in my collection the hänssler CLASSIC disc of Czerny's Symphonies 2 & 6, CD 93.169. The disc tells us that Symphony 6 is a "world premier recording". Please, hänssler, don't stop there. Czerny proved quite prolific with over 1000 works known, but little of it seems to have been recorded.










I just checked Berkshire Record Outlet and did a "Czerny" search. Ten results, including a PROFIL disc with his _Fantasia Concertante_, Op.256 for Flute, Cello and Piano; the _Grande Sonata_, Op.178 for piano duet on ARS PRODUKTION; and a HELIOS disc featuring the "Complete Music for Horn and Fortepiano". The remaining pieces seem to be solo keyboard works (including one for organ) and on a LIGIA disc the Beethoven _Kreutzer_ Sonata "transcribed for cello and piano by Carl Czerny".


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The fact that Ries has so many recognizable "Beethovenisms" in his symphonies proves to me that he was a competent composer without exceptional originality.

People talk about the fact he was unfortunate that he had to compose in Beethoven's shadow. I beg to differ. He got his ideas from Beethoven and imitated the master shamelessly.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

KenOC said:


> Agree on Mehul. His last two symphonies were only recently discovered. All four are very good and available as a set on CD. Still, the only piece that gets much exposure is "Young Henry's Hunt."


The first movement of Méhul's C minor piano sonata, op.1 no.2, has long been one of my favourite pieces of music. Marked "Fieremente", it strikes me as something of a premonition of Beethoven (it was published in 1783). In fact, my _Grove_ tells me "There is evidence that Beethoven acquainted himself with Méhul's music from the early years to the last period, and that the trumpet calls in _Fidelio_ were only one of several cases of borrowing."


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## ToneDeaf&Senile (May 20, 2010)

I followed the two links. Czerny I like very much. I listened all the way through. Ries I grew tied of part way through movement one.


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## gprengel (Dec 21, 2015)

Being a lover of classical music I can testify that one of the greatest discoveries for me in the last 3 years have been the piano concertos from Ferdinand Ries. They delight me in their Romantic and melodic beauty and instrumentation. Yes, they reflect (not copy) much of Beethoven - but for me this is a huge compliment!
My favourite concertos are #8 from 1826 and #9:


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## Melvin (Mar 25, 2011)

I can't wait to delve into Ries. I've always known he was good having heard him on the radio a couple of times, but there are always so many other tangents to go on that I haven't yet gotten around to him! Right now I am listening to the Swedes who adopted the Viennese style. Berwald is absolutely fantastic. So far his symphonies and piano trios are impressive. And there is Eggert who has only recently come to light, and good ol' Naxos has put out his 4 symphonies for the first time in 2015. Eggert as a conductor introduced Beethoven to Stockholm audiences' unsuspecting ears for the first time.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

^

Ries is bets find on CPO,
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/ad...es&work=&performer=&medium=all&label=cpo&cat=

Wonderful pearls of music.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I like Ries a lot too. Less so Czerny.


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