# Cb in the key of C major



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

I have a score hear which is in the key of C major and on the staff lines there are notes marked up in Cb,

This makes no sense. Cb is B natural, and since all of the key are natural white keys, I fail to see the composers logic


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

C flat is the same thing as B natural in Equal Temperament, the most wide spread tuning method for fretted instruments and keyboards today. This is one of the limitations of ET; it 'approximates' the most appropriate pitches closely as possible while enabling the instrument to play in all keys 'evenly tuned'. 

In tuning methods closer to the 'natural sounds' such as Just Intonation, C flat is not the same thing as B natural. There are slight pitch differences in C#/Db and D#/Eb and so on.. as well. On instruments that use JI (such as the violin or trombone), C#/Db are different pitches and they're actually played differently. (While in keyboards and fretted instruments (such as guitar) they cannot be actually)

My guess is that even keyboard composers conceive in their minds the music they compose, in Just Intonation.
But our equally tempered keyboards can't express the subtle difference, because there's only one note key to play both C flat and B natural.
The 'theoretical difference' is still there. It just can't be actualized on keyboards in actual sound.


----------



## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

If possible I would ask the composer. The only possible reason I can imagine for anyone writting a Cb is if the person modulates out of the key of C into a key signature that utilizes many flats and requires the inharmonic equivalent of certain notes depending on the harmonic progressions. But the idea is not to confuse the performer with unnecessary enharmonic equivalents when B equals Cb. However, there is a Cb scale:



> C♭ major (or the key of C♭) is a major scale based on C♭, consisting of the pitches C♭, D♭, E♭, F♭, G♭, A♭, and B♭. Its key signature has seven flats. The direct enharmonic equivalent of C♭ major is B major, a key signature with five sharps.
> 
> C♭ major is the only major or minor key, other than theoretical keys, which has "flat" or "sharp" in its name, but whose tonic note is the enharmonic equivalent of a natural note (a white key on a keyboard instrument). Its relative minor is A♭ minor (or enharmonically G♯ minor), and its parallel minor is C♭ minor, usually replaced by B minor, since C♭ minor's three double-flats make it generally impractical to use. [unquote]
> 
> Perhaps better not to write a Cb!


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

It's a score for a choir, so it's all voiced
Do not see an upload attachment hear, otherwise I would upload the score


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

Why not write C flat? Or for that matter F flat, E sharp, B sharp? Because theoretically it's correct! Say you have an A-flat major chord that wants to shift to minor. A flat-C flat-E flat is the correct spelling. A flat-B nat-E flat is wrong. There's no question that C flat is trickier for inexperienced players to read, but good musicians should have no trouble at all. Double sharps and double flats are a source of trouble too.

Oddly enough, in a lot of piano music C flat (or the enharmonic B) is actually easier to play in than B flat or C. It's because of the way the fingers lie on the keyboard.


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

I have had to start a new thread to be able to upload the score to this site 
Hear is the link
https://www.talkclassical.com/58709-attached-file.html#post1554103


----------



## hammeredklavier (Feb 18, 2018)

You mean the accidentaled, third note in Measure 7? Isn't it actually B♭? So Measure 7 would be " G (slur) - C - B♭ " ?


----------



## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Sorry, I responded to the other thread by mistake. There's no C flat in this piece, but the note occurs in the keys of G flat major and E flat minor, and also whenever you want to write an A flat minor chord as mhaub notes. D flat seventh chords would also need a C flat. It occurs pretty often.


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

If you look at bar 14 at the bass cleff you will see one of the notes is Cb
It is defo in the key of C major


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Batista230 said:


> If you look at bar 14 at the bass cleff you will see one of the notes is Cb
> It is defo in the key of C major


m. 14 has natural signs in front of Cs, not flat symbols.


----------



## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Vasks said:


> m. 14 has natural signs in front of Cs, not flat symbols.


That's what I see too.


----------



## mbhaub (Dec 2, 2016)

This is how some people feel about it:


----------



## Bluecrab (Jun 24, 2014)

Batista230 said:


> It is defo in the key of C major


Or A minor.


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

It would appear I have mistaken the natural symbols for flats
Thanks


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

If I see the first note as flat and then several notes with no symbol after that and then a note with a natural symbol last, would look something like this, 1st note flat, 2nd note nothing, 3rd note nothing, 4th note natural
Dose this mean 2nd and 3rd notes are flat too?


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

I have written this score out using an online sheet music maker, below I have attached the links for the score in order as they appear, what do you think?

https://flat.io/score/5c067142505b375104ab4fd7-4
https://flat.io/score/5c0194eb7a4b1d6a41b91443-carol-for-david
https://flat.io/score/5a53d0373382d71d8a16cafb-test-2
https://flat.io/score/5c0463767bebe738f38e4690-3


----------



## Batista230 (Dec 11, 2018)

Also I recorded myself singing the Carol, I have done the tenor parts where given the choice to do so and I have also done the alt and sop bits too.
What do you think of it please?
https://ebayphotos.webs.com/My recording 2.wav


----------



## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

Batista230 said:


> If I see the first note as flat and then several notes with no symbol after that and then a note with a natural symbol last, would look something like this, 1st note flat, 2nd note nothing, 3rd note nothing, 4th note natural
> Dose this mean 2nd and 3rd notes are flat too?


While I am not completely sure what you mean, here's the rule for any accidental: In a single measure, if your pitch has an accidental, then *for the rest of that measure* the accidental is applied to that pitch. BUT, once you go to the next measure the accidental no longer is effect (IOW: the key signature takes over in that next measure canceling out the accidental)


----------



## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

The reason for the key of Cb is where you're coming from. The flat keys are C-F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb (seven flats). 
If you have B, then you are coming from the other direction: C-G-D-A-E-B (5 sharps).

In other words, if you were in the key of Gb, and wanted to modulate a fourth up, Cb would be the key.


----------

