# Your ten favourite atonal works since 1951



## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

13th of July 1951 and Arnie's stone dead, but his groundbreaking ideas on music composition paved the way for music as we know it. His legacy has influenced many composers to write without tonality and with a greater importance given to tone colour (grew out of the idea of klangfarbenmelodie) and a lot of the music since his death could never have happened in the same way that it did if it wasn't for him.

But now old Arnie's out of the way, there has been a huge increase in the development of atonal music that puts an emphasis on tone colour, rhythm, texture etc. rather than pitch and the relationship between consonant and dissonant functional harmony. Since his death, we have had many different styles that grew out of his ideas in one way or another, so why don't we list our TOP TEN FAVOURITE ATONAL WORKS written after the 13th of July 1951? 

My list of ten favourites might be something like.....

1. Ligeti's Chamber Concerto
2. Carter's _What Next?_
3. Nørgård's Symphony no. 2
4. Ligeti's Cello Concerto
5. Adès's Violin Concerto
6. Brett Dean's _Bliss_
7. Carter's _Luimen_
8. Xenakis's _Ata_
9. Ligeti's Requiem
10. Stockhausen's _Gesang der Jünglinge_

That's as of now...ask me tomorrow and it would have changed! So much music is out there. What are your favourites?


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Sticking to this definition ("there has been a huge increase in the development of atonal music that puts an emphasis on tone colour, rhythm, texture etc. rather than pitch and the relationship between consonant and dissonant functional harmony") of the famous and elusive "atonal music", I would say:

1. Ligeti's Lontano, Piano & Violin Concerti, Piano Études, ..., all!
2. Boulez's Le marteau sans maître
3. Grisey's Partiels
4. Haas' limited approximations
5. Furrer's Piano Concerto
6. Carter's Flute Concerto
7. Takemitsu's Rain Spell
8. Xenakis' Keqrops
9. Nancarrow's String Quartet No. 3
10. Messiaen's Un Sourire

Of course, just a partial list, full of shameless omissions. And, also, some of these composers were actually interested in pitch relations (Boulez, for example), but their music is also an exploration of the aspects mentioned in the OP (like the wonderful rhythms in Boulez's Le marteau sans maître).


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## Prodromides (Mar 18, 2012)

No definitions, here. Just my post-1951 faves: 

1. Andre Jolivet's 1964 _Symphonie #3_
2. Maurice Ohana's _Livres des Prodiges_ ('78/'79)
3. Meyer Kupferman's 1988 _Jazz Symphony_
4. Arne Nordheim's _Spur_ for accordion & orchestra (1975)
5. Giacinto Scelsi's 1966 _Uaxactum_
6. Roberto Gerhard's 1964 serial cantata on Camus' _The Plague_
7. _Le livre des Katuns_ by Jean Prodromides (1977)
8. Luis De Pablo's 2007 _Danzas Secretas_, a concerto/symphony for harp & orchestra
9. Luigi Dallapiccola's serial _Three Questions With Two Answers_ ('62/'63)
10. Erik Bergman's _Dreams_ (1977) for female chorus

I'm very much into the 1960s & 1970s, as can be seen, and I approve of CoAG's avatar/icon from the 1975 DOCTOR WHO serial "Planet Of Evil".


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

Oh, yes, in the middle of my list add Gerhard's Symphony No. 4, New York.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

How do you listeners determine if a work is atonal? Can you tell by ear, or do you have to transcribe, or read about the piece?

I like Carter's Symphony Of Three Orchestras, and I love Ligeti's Cello Concerto. Also Takemitsu's Archipelago S., and Xenakis's Akrata. But hell if I know if these are all purely atonal?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

starthrower said:


> How do you listeners determine if a work is atonal? Can you tell by ear, or do you have to transcribe, or read about the piece?
> 
> I like Carter's Symphony Of Three Orchestras, and I love Ligeti's Cello Concerto. Also Takemitsu's Archipelago S., and Xenakis's Akrata. But hell if I know if these are all purely atonal?


The term atonal is more or less meaningless as it is used. Any collection of notes can refer to some tonic or other, although connections may be obscure. People are finding the "hidden or implied tonality" in Schoenberg and Webern all the time.

eg http://www.ex-tempore.org/OGDON/OGDON.htm

Messiaen said he made no distinctions between tonal and atonal, although critics usually say his music contains elements of each.

People use the term to mean that it sounds like nonsense to them, or that they can't hear a tonal center in it, I suppose, but that hardly makes for a rigorous definition. I'd be glad if it disappeared altogether.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Mahlerian said:


> People use the term to mean that it sounds like nonsense to them, or that they can't hear a tonal center in it, I suppose, but that hardly makes for a rigorous definition. I'd be glad if it disappeared altogether.


I always get a laugh when listener's castigate a work they don't like by calling it atonal.


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

lol, anybody remembers "Zör the atonal"?!. A classic of this forum!.


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

Some favourites that come to mind, no specific ranking:

Dmitri Shostakovich _String Quartet 12_, _Violin Sonata_, _Viola Sonata_
Olivier Messian _Catalogue d'Oiseaux_, _Des Canyons aux Étoiles_
Iannis Xenakis _Persepolis_, _Jonchaies_, _Eonta_, _Nomos Alpha_, _Kottos_
'George' Ligeti _Concerto for Piano and Orchestra_, _Chamber Concerto_
Sofia Gubaidulina _Offertorium_
Alfred Schnittke _Concerto Grosso 4/Symphony 5_, _Concerto for Piano Four Hands_, _2 Cello Concertos_
Karlheinz Stockhausen _Kontakte_, _Kreuzspiel_, _Schlagtrio_, _Zeitmasze_
Krzysztof Penderecki _Anaklasis_, _Fonogrammi_, _De Natura Sonoris 1&2_
Pierre Boulez _Répons_
Elliott Carter _Concerto for Orchestra_
Ivo Malec _Exempla_, _Lumina_
Giacinto Scelsi _Okanagon_, _Natura Renovatur_
Bruno Maderna _Quadrivium_



Mahlerian said:


> The term atonal is more or less meaningless as it is used.


Shostakovich might surprise some, but he played with serialism in some of his later works. He said:

"If, let's say, a composer sets himself the obligatory task of writing dodecaphonic music, then he artificially limits his possibilities, his ideas. The use of elements from these complex systems is fully justified if it is dictated by the concept of the composition...".


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

It's not completely atonal, but the music from _Close Encounters of the Third Kind_ by John Williams is quite good. There is a 21 minute suite that was recorded by Charles Gerhardt that I think of as the definitive suite of music, containing the last five major orchestral cues from the film.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

My nomination for the best definition of "atonal" is the well-known story from _The Rest is Noise _by Alex Ross:

William Schuman often told the story of a concert in Macon, Georgia, after which he was approached by a member of the audience who told him she liked his piece even though she did not generally like atonal music. Schuman tried to explain that the work indeed was not atonal, but tonal, even though the harmony may be complex. Finally she interrupted his explanation with the comment, "That's very well, Mr. Schuman, but in Macon, Georgia, your piece is atonal."


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

aleazk said:


> And, also, some of these composers were actually interested in pitch relations (Boulez, for example), but their music is also an exploration of the aspects mentioned in the OP (like the wonderful rhythms in Boulez's Le marteau sans maître).


Yep, pitch relations are important too in many atonal works, something not to be forgotten. Even in my own works I place this as of a very high importance along with tone colour. Pitch is generally how I structure my compositions, colour and instrumentation is where I can be most creative.

I listened to some Boulez yesterday and I think Derive I and Derive II should be in my top ten today....


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Yep, pitch relations are important too in many atonal works, something not to be forgotten. Even in my own works I place this as of a very high importance along with tone colour. Pitch is generally how I structure my compositions, colour and instrumentation is where I can be most creative.
> 
> I listened to some Boulez yesterday and I think Derive I and Derive II should be in my top ten today....


Indeed. The first thing I think when planning a new piece is the harmonic language. My current favorite pieces by Boulez are:

1. Piano Sonata no.2
2. Le marteau sans maître
3. Rituel - in memoriam Bruno Maderna
4. Sur incises
5. Livre pour cordes
6. …explosante-fixe…
7. Dérive 1
8. Une page d'éphéméride
9. Structures I 
10. Dérive 2


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## Andreas (Apr 27, 2012)

Baird: Four Essays, Variations without a Theme
Boulez: Dérive 2
Ligeti: Atmosphères, Lontano
Nono: Como una ola de fuerza y luz
Penderecki: St Luke Passion, Threnody
Schnittke: Violin Sonata no. 2
Takemitsu: Requiem


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## BurningDesire (Jul 15, 2012)

Hmmm.... what if the piece has parts that are tonal and parts that aren't?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

BurningDesire said:


> Hmmm.... what if the piece has parts that are tonal and parts that aren't?


Idk bend the rules if you want. Which piece is it?


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Soon I will have a Boulez list, I still really want to listen to a lot of his work now....


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## aleazk (Sep 30, 2011)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> Soon I will have a Boulez list, I still really want to listen to a lot of his work now....


Excellent!. 
I strongly recommend any of the pieces on my list.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

Let's make some slight adjustments to my list....

1. Ligeti's Chamber Concerto
2. Schnittke's Viola Concerto (a little bit of tonality every now and then, but not too much )
3. Nørgård's Symphony no. 2
4. Ligeti's Cello Concerto
5. Adès's Violin Concerto
6. Brett Dean's Electric Violin Concerto (Violin Concerto no. 2)
7. Boulez's _Derive II_
8. Xenakis's _Ata_
9. Ligeti's Requiem
10. Boulez's _Derive I_


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2013)

aleazk said:


> Indeed. The first thing I think when planning a new piece is the harmonic language. My current favorite pieces by Boulez are:
> 
> 1. Piano Sonata no.2
> 2. Le marteau sans maître
> ...


Boulez is my man. Even when he conducts Bruckner. He's not a well cat, though. Hope he keeps going as long as Carter.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

nightscape said:


> It's not completely atonal, but the music from _Close Encounters of the Third Kind_ by John Williams is quite good. There is a 21 minute suite that was recorded by Charles Gerhardt that I think of as the definitive suite of music, containing the last five major orchestral cues from the film.


I like that suite as well, and consider a good part of it atonal. When I mentioned that (here or in another forum, can't remember) I was immediately attacked: "You idiot, it only *sounds* atonal!" :lol:


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Williams & Carter*



KenOC said:


> I like that suite as well, and consider a good part of it atonal. When I mentioned that (here or in another forum, can't remember) I was immediately attacked: "You idiot, it only *sounds* atonal!" :lol:


He must be from Macon. (Note: Remember, I was the one who originally told you the Schuman story long time ago in another forum far, far away.)

Check out my old posts concerning the Williams' _Flute_ and _Violin Concertos_: http://www.talkclassical.com/22601-poll-most-accessible-contemporary-3.html#post387951

If anyone really cares I think my favorite atonal work after 1950 is Carter's _Variations for Orchestra_.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

My list for today

1. Ligeti's Chamber Concerto
2. Schnittke's Viola Concerto 
3. Ferneyhough's _Terrain_
4. Ligeti's Violin Concerto
5. Adès's Violin Concerto
6. Brett Dean's Electric Violin Concerto (Violin Concerto no. 2)
7. Boulez's Derive II
8. Xenakis's Ata
9. Ligeti's Cello Concerto
10. Boulez's Derive I


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## Garlic (May 3, 2013)

I have a hard time telling if something is atonal. Are these works atonal or not?

Ligeti's Violin Concerto, Piano Concerto and Hamburg Concerto
Messiaen's Oiseaux exotiques and Chronochromie
Takemitsu's A Flock Descends Into the Pentagonal Garden
Feldman's Coptic Light
Scelsi's Uaxuctum
Chin's Violin Concerto


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## ptr (Jan 22, 2013)

Ten not-so-tonal works I dig this morning:

Galina Ustvolskaya - Symphony No 4
Helmuth Lachenmann - Kontrakadenz
HK Gruber - Nebelsteinmusik
Kaija Saariaho - Graal théâtre (Violin Concerto)
Dror Feiler - Sparagmos (violin, live electronics & chamber orch)
Wolfgang Rihm - Jagden und Formen
George Crumb - Ancient Voices Of Children
Gilbert Amy - Cycles (1-6)
Marius Constant ‎– 14 Stations
Luc Ferrari - Danses Organiques

No particular order... Will change rapidly without notice!

/ptr


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Garlic said:


> I have a hard time telling if something is atonal. Are these works atonal or not?


In the sense of "chromatic music not adhering to the system of functional tonality", yes. In the sense of "nonsense" or "music completely devoid of centricity", no, but I've never heard a good piece of music that was either of those two...


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## Ravndal (Jun 8, 2012)

Top 10? I'm not sure, but i think these are amazing:

Sofia Gubaidulina - Chaconne






Lera Auerbach - Prelude no 4 (They all are amazing. She also got a set of preludes for violin + piano)






Both of these composers is living, and both is a mix of tonal/atonal.

Here is two dead and buried composers:

Schnittke - Piano Quintet, Second movement






Ligeti - Etude, White on White


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

Macon, schmacon, pass the bacon.

Agreed, Bassoon, Carter's Variations for Orch is definitely on my list. The old Columbia Masterworks vinyl LP cover photo shows Carter in a white linen suit, Southerrn-style, sitting in a lawn chair outside in a verdant setting. And let's not forget that Milton Babbitt was from Mississipi.

1) Carter: Variations for Orchestra
2) Roger Sessions: Piano Sonata No. 2
3) Dallapiccola: Du Pezzi, both orchestral & piano versions
4) Babbitt: Piano music
4) Boulez: Le marteau
5) David Froom: Chamber Concerto
6) Cage: Early 12-tone piano works (see Janet Kirstein 2-CD)
7) Stravinsky: Piano Concerto (Richter, Yedang)
8) Vincent Persichetti: later piano sonatas
9) George Perle: all
10) Boulez: Sonatina


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Carter Variations*

It turns out that I have four recordings:

_Variations for Orchestra_
Deutsche Grammophon 431 698-2​Chicago Symphony Orchestra \ Orchestra
Levine, James \ Conductor​First Edition FECD-0001 \ Variations for Orchestra​Louisville Symphony \ Orchestra
Whitney, Robert \ Conductor​New World NW 347-2 \​Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra \ Orchestra
Gielen, Michael \ Conductor​OEHMS OC 502 \ Documents of the Munich Years-Volumn 2​Levine, James \ Conductor
Munich Philharmonic \ Orchestra​
Even though it is only a fair performce and a poor recording, my favorite is still the old Whitney Louisville recording. I am listening to it right now.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

*Carter Variations-part II*

I just stumbled onto this great performance of the _Variations_ with the summer student Tanglewood Orchestra.






These young musicians really nailed it.

That Massachusetts audience is just as messed up as those Australians. When they dislike atonal music instead of booing, they give the performance a standing ovation.

I just discovered that embedded in this YouTube is also a performance of the _Double Concerto_ with the Tanglewood Orchestra.


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

arpeggio said:


> I just stumbled onto this great performance of the _Variations_ with summer student Tanglewood Orchestra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those performances of Carter by Tanglewood are probably the best I've ever heard! Luimen is spectacular, the cello concerto....and that's right about what audiences disliking atonal music do here in Australia! I went to the Australian première of his opera "What Next?" and it was a HUGE hit! :clap:


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

arpeggio said:


> I just stumbled onto this great performance of the _Variations_ with the summer student Tanglewood Orchestra.
> 
> These young musicians really nailed it.
> 
> That Massachusetts audience is just as messed up as those Australians. When they dislike atonal music instead of booing, they give the performance a standing ovation.


Funny thing, huh?



arpeggio said:


> I just discovered that embedded in this YouTube is also a performance of the _Double Concerto_ with the Tanglewood Orchestra.


That's a great performance. And, it's conducted by Oliver Knussen!


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## isridgewell (Jul 2, 2013)

Ok, in no order:

1 Berg Violin Concerto
2 Ligeti Lontano
3 Feldman Coptic Light
4 Feldman String Quartet and Orchestra
5 Birtwistle Nenia The Death of Orpheus
6 Birtwistle Earth Dances
7 Boulez Ritual in Memory of Bruno Maderna
8 Xenakis Keqrops
9 Berg Wozzeck
10 Henze Symphony No 7


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

isridgewell said:


> Ok, in no order:
> 
> 1 Berg Violin Concerto
> 2 Ligeti Lontano
> ...


_After_ 1951


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

*bump*

...in the hope of seeing more lists - even if the same people want to do 11-20, or whatever


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2013)

Shostakovich said:


> If, let's say, a composer sets himself the obligatory task of writing dodecaphonic music, then he artificially limits his possibilities, his ideas.


I have a ton of work to do today. More than a day's worth. So of course my response to that reality is to dink around on old threads. (Thanks, Simon!)*

Anyway, what Shostakovich says here may indeed be true. Probably is true. But it very cunningly disguises a larger truth, a truth that almost never gets said: If a composer sets his or her self any sort of task at all, then she or he artificially limits the possibilities. "Any sort of task" would include writing a piece in c# minor or in A major. Would include writing a string quartet. Would include writing an electroacoustic piece. Would include staging a huge happening with electronics and vocalists and slides and readings from randomly selected texts.

Writing a piece of music, of any kind, is limiting. Writing a piece of music, of any kind, is artificial.

To make out, as the Shostakovich comment does, that serialism is artificial and limiting in some special way, is to give a false impression of what serialism is. (Even worse, maybe, it perpetuates a false impression of what tonality is!!)

And I know that I've left off the sop that Dmitri throws us in the next sentence in the quote that brotagonist found (thanks, bro!).* I was only interested in repairing the damage done in the first sentence, not in Dmitri's attempt to defect attention away from it.

*brotagonist's post is on page one, post #9


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