# How good is Heitor Villa-Lobos really?



## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Completely pointless


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## TwoFlutesOneTrumpet (Aug 31, 2011)

He's as good as the Jamaican Bobsled team in the Calgary Winter Olympics. I mean for a Brazilian guy in classical music 

I need to listen more to his music but I'm pretty sure he's not better than Stravinsky and he's better than boring.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

He's not better than (or as good as) Stravinsky, but he's better than Stravinsky thought he was. But then most composers were better than Stravinsky thought they were (or was willing to say they were).

It's nice we have a lot of choices here. I'll just say he was good for a Brazilian, whatever that means. He wrote a ton of music, but I don't even know how much of it I've heard. Not too much stands out in the memory, but of course the Bachianas Brasileiras #5 is a gem, especially when his fellow Brazilian Bidu Sayao sang it:


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## senza sordino (Oct 20, 2013)

I have a soft spot for Villa Lobos, because of my personal history, which I won't share here. I really like the Brasileiras Bachianas, the string quartets and guitar concerto and preludes for guitar. All good stuff. I have not listened to the Choros or symphonies. He was very prolific. I once read that Villa Lobos didn't revise any of his music, he wrote quickly and then moved on. I think that some of his music could have used some proof reading and revisions. 

Villa Lobos is good, but not great.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

I voted "Pretty good for Brazilian stuff, I mean, who else is there from there?" because there was no other option I could go with such as "Not my cup of tea." or "He's okay but I am not that into Spanish classical."


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Probably better than Aaron Copland.


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## helenora (Sep 13, 2015)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Probably better than Aaron Copland.


 I like the word "probably"


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2016)

I dislike most of his music, especially his guitar pieces, and I used to play guitar! His piano piece "Rudepoema" is OK, I guess.


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## Huilunsoittaja (Apr 6, 2010)

nyuk nyuk nyuk you can guess what _I_ picked. :tiphat:


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## dzc4627 (Apr 23, 2015)

"Why is it that whenever I hear a piece of music I don't like, it's always by Villa Lobos?"--Igor Stravinsky


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Pretty good for Brazilian stuff, I mean, who else is there from there? 
Will do it for me.


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## Strange Magic (Sep 14, 2015)

There are many good moments in the Bachianas, and numbers one, two, and five are quite enjoyable. I'll have to listen to some more Villa-Lobos again; it's been a while. I voted Very Good but not top tier.


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

I don't really know his music, but I do like the guitar concerto.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Actually, I have a CD of his violin music and it is okay. I found the CD at a charity shop cheap, else probably would not have gone out of my way for it.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

Florestan said:


> I voted "Pretty good for Brazilian stuff, I mean, who else is there from there?" because there was no other option I could go with such as "Not my cup of tea." or "He's okay but I am not that into *Spanish *classical."


Brazil is not a part of Spain and have never been. It was a Portuguese colony.


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## Genoveva (Nov 9, 2010)

Here is a composer I like a lot. His output is large, covering many genres. I have collected a fairly decent cross-section of his work. (I'm not clear why Stravinsky was used as the composer to compare him against). There are only a few Latin American composers to compare him against at this high quality level. Ginastera (Argentina) and Ponce (Mexico) spring to mind. I like all of the Bachianas most of which different in style/genre. His concerto for guitar is good. He wrote lots of guitar solo which I enjoy. Another series of his music is listed under various "choros", covering everything from piano solo to chamber to orchestral. So yes, definitely a very good composer worth getting to know.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Brazil is not a part of Spain and have never been. It was a Portuguese colony.


No, but it is a choice in this poll to refer to Villa-Lobos' music as "Brazilian stuff." 

I worked with a Brazilian exchange student in the 1970s. He taught us dirty words and phrases in Portuguese that I won't mention here (or elsewhere). :lol:


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Florestan said:


> No, but it is a choice in this poll to refer to Villa-Lobos' music as "Brazilian stuff."
> 
> I worked with a Brazilian exchange student in the 1970s. He taught us dirty words and phrases in Portuguese that I won't mention here (or elsewhere). :lol:


But you never forgot them .


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Genoveva said:


> (I'm not clear why Stravinsky was used as the composer to compare him against)


Because it's funny because of that well known Stravinsky quote. Literally the only reason.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Pugg said:


> But you never forgot them .


I am afraid not.


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## schigolch (Jun 26, 2011)

Sloe said:


> Brazil is not a part of Spain and have never been. It was a Portuguese colony.


Well, it was from 1580 to 1640. 

Coming back to the OP, I like Villa-Lobos but my favorite Brazilian composer is Carlos Gomes.


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## joen_cph (Jan 17, 2010)

For a quite positive evaluation, we have to choose between either "better than Stravinsky" and "very good, but not top tier"?

I protest. With a somewhat wide top tier, he belongs there.


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## Five and Dime (Jul 8, 2016)

HVL is my favorite 20th century composer. I have received more listening pleasure from him over the years than just about anyone else.

I probably listen to and enjoy Villa-Lobos 10x more than Stravinsky. I see Stravinsky as a three-hit wonder who spent the rest of his career bitterly trying to remain relevant. It seems to me that HVL spent his career writing good music, with less concern about what people thought.


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## Orfeo (Nov 14, 2013)

joen_cph said:


> For a quite positive evaluation, we have to choose between either "better than Stravinsky" and "very good, but not top tier"?
> 
> I protest. With a somewhat wide top tier, he belongs there.


I agree. While he is not the best ever, nor is he better than Stravinsky, he is a great composer: that missing third choice before the "Very good, but not top tier" listed above.

That said, his magnum opus is, to my mind, his symphonic poem "Floresta do Amazonas", a Brazilian counterpart to Smetana's Ma Vlast, Paderewski's Symphony in B minor "Polonia", and Orff's Carmina Burana. It is a fascinating work, and a great introduction to his art (his Brasileiras Bachianas also).


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

schigolch said:


> Well, it was from 1580 to 1640.
> 
> Coming back to the OP, I like Villa-Lobos but my favorite Brazilian composer is Carlos Gomes.


Just because two countries have the same king doesn´t make it the same country. Canada, Australia, New Zealand and United Kingdom are independent countries despite having the same monarch. You don´t call Carl Maria von Weber Danish or Edward Grieg Swedish.
I had to point it out. People from Latin America are a bit sensitive when you think they are Spanish or that you think the countries are more or less the same and what if it is a country were they don´t even speak Spanish.
My favourite Brazilian composer is also Carlos Gomes.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

joen_cph said:


> For a quite positive evaluation, we have to choose between either "better than Stravinsky" and "very good, but not top tier"?
> 
> I protest. With a somewhat wide top tier, he belongs there.


So I made a flawed poll. My bad. It's kinda impossible to make a perfect one. Show me a perfect poll and I'll be surprised. Also I kinda made it spontaneously as a joke without much thought? All these things aside, I am curious about what people think of Villa-Lobos and I've found a lot of the posts so far pretty interesting. In my mind the OP and poll is just a catalyst for the really interesting bits, that is, the conversation to follow. I don't know that much about classical music even though I am learning more and more all the time, so I like to provoke people into sharing opinions and knowledge. Some efforts are more pathetic than others.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Five and Dime said:


> I see Stravinsky as a three-hit wonder who spent the rest of his career bitterly trying to remain relevant. It seems to me that HVL spent his career writing good music, with less concern about what people thought.


1. If Stravinsky was primarily concerned with what people thought, he would have done what most people wanted him to and continued to write nationalist music - hey, live HVL! - instead of inventing high neo-classicism.

2. I think by the time you have not one, not two, but _three _hits, you're just a "wonder," no qualification. Anyway, the Symphony of Psalms is a hit. Not that it matters.

3. Schönberg certainly didn't think Stravinsky had to TRY to be relevant.



> [on Oedipus:] I know, after all, that the works which in every way arouse one's dislike are precisely those the next generation will like in every way. And the better the jokes one makes about them, the more seriously one will later have to take them.


4. For somebody bitterly trying to remain relevant, he sure continued to be ripped off for a long time.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

Dedalus said:


> So I made a flawed poll.


It's okay. These are not scientific polls, just polls for the fun of it. You could put in that he is the best Ukrainian composer out there and some could select that fully knowing it is absurd. All in fun.


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Does anybody think that Stravinsky's comment made Villa-Lobos more popular? In the way that Amadeus made Salieri more well known. And also isn't there a composer (a Jewish one I think) that is mainly known because Wagner despised him? Forgive me, I can't recall the name.


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## Magnum Miserium (Aug 15, 2016)

Dedalus said:


> And also isn't there a composer (a Jewish one I think) that is mainly known because Wagner despised him? Forgive me, I can't recall the name.


Meyerbeer, at this point? (Obviously not Mendelssohn.)


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Magnum Miserium said:


> Meyerbeer, at this point? (Obviously not Mendelssohn.)


Yes it was Meyerbeer, thanks.


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## millionrainbows (Jun 23, 2012)

He is a notable figure, occupying space in that contingent of 20th century "nationalist" composers including Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel, etc. These composers were not chromaticists, but were more neo-tonal, using 20th century ideas of freeing up the modes, ideas of symmetry, functionless diatonicism, pentatonicism, influences of folk music.


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## Kjetil Heggelund (Jan 4, 2016)

I said "the best ever", along with ca. 100 others


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Good poll. I think HV-L was a fine Brazilian composer.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Kjetil Heggelund said:


> I said "the best ever", along with ca. 100 others


We must see a different outcome


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## Mahlerite555 (Aug 27, 2016)

If you have to ask, you already know the answer.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Maybe he didn't have to ask, and maybe there isn't an answer.

He _did_ say "completely pointless."


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## Dedalus (Jun 27, 2014)

Woodduck said:


> Maybe he didn't have to ask, and maybe there isn't an answer.
> 
> He _did_ say "completely pointless."


Something that I thought would be completely pointless actually turned out to be pretty entertaining and informative. That doesn't always happen but when it does one just feels lucky I think.


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## Jorge Hereth (Aug 16, 2015)

To those who voted, "Pretty good for Brazilian stuff, I mean, who else is there from there?":

I would have some names for you guys, starting with Antonio Carlos Gomes, Henrique Alves de Mesquita and Francisco Braga...


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## musicrom (Dec 29, 2013)

There's no good option on the poll for me. I think Villa-Lobos is pretty good, not amazing. I disagree with the option "Pretty good for Brazilian stuff, I mean, who else is there from there?" though - I also like the Brazilian composer Alberto Nepomuceno, and don't wish to disrespect him by selecting that option. So I will abstain, but mark my vote as "Pretty good".


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Jorge Hereth said:


> To those who voted, "Pretty good for Brazilian stuff, I mean, who else is there from there?":
> 
> I would have some names for you guys, starting with Antonio Carlos Gomes, Henrique Alves de Mesquita and Francisco Braga...


And so we learn something new everyday on this site.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

I like Hermeto Pacoal. He's more fun than Villa-Lobos.


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

The Prolific Composer Syndrome (_IMO_):

Lots of junk with a few fabulous gems


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

The only piece I've heard that was half-way interesting was a performance by Artur Rubinstein of the composer's "A Prole do Bebe" suite.


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## Oldie (May 28, 2020)

TwoFlutesOneTrumpet said:


> He's as good as the Jamaican Bobsled team in the Calgary Winter Olympics. I mean for a Brazilian guy in classical music
> 
> I need to listen more to his music but I'm pretty sure he's not better than Stravinsky and he's better than boring.


Music is music wherever you come from, if you can't understand that than you should not be in music at all. But I understand you were trying to say that it was not part of his cultural language, anyway I think you should study more

And about Stravinsky I think he was a great composer but was not in the same league with Lobos. This one was quite a nature phenomenon with a real taste for melodies, harmonies, a monstrous talent for music and a great vision for art. He was more complete than Stravinsky and, unlike Stravinsky, wasn't pretensious and outrageous (even thought he scandalized some tradicionalists here in Br)


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## Xisten267 (Sep 2, 2018)

Voted for _Very good, but not top tier_. His _Bachianas Brasileiras_ and _Choros_ are gems of latin american music I think.


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## Neo Romanza (May 7, 2013)

I think the options to choose from are kind of ridiculous. I mean “Better than Stravinsky”? “The best ever”? Anyway, I voted “Better than Stravinsky” because I like his music more than Stravinsky's. I certainly don’t agree with Stravinsky’s opinion of Villa-Lobos. I think at his best, Villa-Lobos could write music that inspires people and lift their spirits. He’s been a favorite of mine for many years now. He’s definitely in my own personal ‘Top 10’.


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## aioriacont (Jul 23, 2018)

Vasks said:


> The Prolific Composer Syndrome (_IMO_):
> 
> Lots of junk with a few fabulous gems


yeah, like mozart


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## Oldhoosierdude (May 29, 2016)

I rather enjoy his piano concertos.


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## Marcos (May 3, 2021)

His 5 preludes are arguably the most beautiful music ever written for solo guitar. I would swap the lost #6 for everything Stravinsky wrote after the Rite of Spring!


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## leonsm (Jan 15, 2011)

In my opinion, HCL has way better compositions than Stravinsky: Piano Concerto no. 5; String Quartets no. 5, 6 and 17; Symphonies no. 3, 4 and 10; Quinteto Musical; Harmonica Concerto; Guitar Concerto; Floresta do Amazonas, Harp Concerto; Bachianas Brasileiras no. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9; Choros no. 01, 10 and 12; 12 Etudes for Guitar; Cello Concerto no. 2; Preludes for Guitar...


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