# Knorf and Merl talk pish about Scriabin Symphony 3



## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

I've been thinking about a more light-hearted review thread for symphonies for a while (my LvB cycle reviews are far more dry), one in which I could discuss symphony performances with another TC member and have a bit of a laugh too. To cut a long story short, I was talking about performances of a symphony with Knorf, via social media, a bit ago and we had an exchange of opinions about some individual performances we liked or did not in a not-very-serious-at-all way. The upshot of this being I thought it would be interesting to share some of these exchanges on TC.

As I said, these are designed not to be overly serious and there may be banter and as we both have the same daft, sarcastic, dry sense of humour there are times when it may seem as though we are having a row with each other but that's just how we talk to each other. TCers, feel free to chip in but try not to be all stuffed-shirt! I want to keep this light. If you're going to get too serious, angry and po-faced I suggest you start your own thread elsewhere.

The plan is to choose 4, or more, recordings of a specific symphony suggested by one of us, that we both like and have access to, and then we'll listen, discuss them in comparison and share our conversation on here (minus any profanities and overtly childish name-calling - although, on second thoughts, we'll likely keep the latter in).

As our first (and maybe only) foray into this arena Knorf chose Scriabin's 3rd Symphony, a symphony I'm familiar with and have accounts of but play far too seldomly. However, the Knorfmeister loves it and it's his pick first.

The recordings sampled: 
*Muti / Philadelphia
Gergiev / LSO
Sinopoli / NYPO
Segerstam / Stockholm PO
Pletnev / Russian NO
Svetlanov / USSR SO
Ashkenazy / RSO Berlin*

So here goes.......

As you like your Engish football (soccer to some) Knorfmeister, then here's my thoughts on the recordings using a football analogy.

*Sinopoli*
Yes, this is a Premier League performance. The brass is full and impressive. Mr. Sin has some really good moments but I think in the middle of the match he tends to wander around the field looking for a pass he never gets. It's rich and well-realised but I'm not sure if he's always playing a team game or is sure on where the goal is. Interestingly he pulls the team back together for a rousing finish. This is definitely an Arsenal-like performance. Sometimes terrific but occasionally they spend too much time messing around in midfield with little impact. Still a very good premiership team who sound very impressive in this stadium.
*
Gergiev*
Gergiev coaxes some superb playing from his London-based team. They play a cohesive team game (with occasional flashes of brilliance) and their finishing is particularly impressive towards the end of the match. This is a team big on working together and their manager builds up a steady succession of successful passes resulting in a fine performance but without much distinction. Very much Tottenham Hotspur (sorry Knorf, I know you hate Spurs but it suited).

*Muti*
Coach Muti sees the big picture and it's all lovingly played stuff. This is an exceptionally fine team performance. They play sexy stuff all over the pitch and there's fire aplenty from their frontline of strings unfortunately their chairman (EMI) forces them to play in a muffled acoustic that detracts from what otherwise would be a stunning performance. Think Manchester City away to Bournemouth. A team capable of a high quality performance in a less than ideal atmosphere.

*Gielen*
Like you, Knorfy, this one came out of the dark like Sheffield United in their first season back in the top flight. However Mr. Gielen is no Chris Wilder. Gielen can always summon superb, unmannered performances from his players (as he did when playing Mahler United and Bayern Beethoven in the Champions League). This is definitely no-nonsense stuff, full of Sheffield United solidity and whilst it lacks the intensity of Sin's team or the sexy passing of Muti's squad it gets results and very impressive ones. A much better use of the harpist in this match who offers a standout performance. You'd never guess this is an older performance (analogue 1975) and the quality of the acoustics in the venue are impressive allowing us to really soak up the big-match atmosphere. Gielen and his team give a polished and very respectful account but it's hardly surprising considering the quality of the manager.

*Svetlanov*
Svetanov's teams were always fiery and intense, resulting in a few red-cards and the occasional yellow. This particular match was spoiled by quite awful sonics which ruin what could have been one of the best performances of the season. Svetlanov liked to tinker with the gameplan, and he does so here, resulting in highly entertaining but eye-opening moments. No shortage of quality in this one and that brass defensive line are a standout but I really cant get past the sound which spoils the match.

*Asknenazy*
Lots of people rate this performance as that of top premiership team but for me it's just very top of the Championship. Everything is there to take this into the top league, fine playing, good team structure, a sense of knowing where the goal is but i'm not convinced this is good enough to be considered Premiership quuality. Hardly Norwich City but definitely a Leeds United of a performance - essentially top-flight but not proven against the big hitters in the top league.

*Pletnev*
Like Sin and his team, Pletnev starts well, loses the game in the middle but finishes effectively. His Russian team-mates offer a heavily romanticised style of play but for all the fancy passing this aint no Liverpool, more of a West Ham on a bad day, occassionally impressive and with some fine individuality throughout the performance, but totally lacking consistency with the effect that Pletnev's forces fail to put this one in the back of the net.

*Segerstam*
This almost Sibelian performance reminded me of a game I watched years ago between Liverpool and Newcastle. It ended 4-3 with some dodgy defending but it was a scintillating watch. I know Knorfy doesn't share my enthusiasm for this team. I agree it's an unconventional game-plan but for me it works. I like the game to be played like this sometimes and Segerstam's teams always have something interesting to say and I rate him highly as a manager. I know, he puts on substitutes at the strangest of times, opting for percussive play that possibly has no right to be there but it actually works quite often. The sound of this performance is brilliant. Possibly with a less eccentric style of play and with a less shocking formation this team could be permanently at the top of the Scriabin table but it's impossible to not see the frailties in Segerstam's team structure, even if occassionally they reach great highs.

Seriously, Knorf, after listening to all of these there's not one that I would rate as definitive but plenty as very good (you might agree or not). Apart from Ashkenazy they all have things that I really, really like but all have things that frustrate (Muti - foggy sound, Sinopoli - unengaging 2nd movement, Pletnev - inconsistent and a bit soppy at times, Segerstam - a bit too cold occasionally in the first two movements - I can live with the extra, wacky percussion, Giergiev - Loses focus, Gielen - lacks a little bit of warmth). I've had the Muti years and whilst consistency-wise it's the best performance for me he deserved much better sound (a remaster may address this but it may be the acoustic). Interestingly enough, the one I've returned to most is the Segerstam. I know it's an 'out there' performance but there's something so wacky about it that drags me back. Oh and thanks to Spotify I listened to Petrenko (yawn), Golovanov 1946 (horrid sound), Jarvi (too relaxed in the middle), Barenboim (too sentimental) and Inbal's now OOP performance (lovely harp sound and very good performance but slightly underplayed brass).

Over to you, Knorf......apologies for the football-themed post to all football-haters.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Comparative reviews of Alexander Scriabin's Symphony No. 3, _Le Divin Poème_, Op. 43.

Merl and I did a comparative listen of a number of recordings of this masterpiece, mostly independently, but with a decent amount of cross discussion, mainly to try to provoke each other.

Here is my general order of preference, top to bottom, among those we considered. I won't call those at the top "best;" they're just my own personal favorites.

*Giuseppe Sinopoli, New York Philharmonic Orchestra*
Deutsche Grammophon, 1988

For me, this is one recording and performance that demonstrates the highest achievement at getting everything right. It is a luxurious and sensuous performance, with just the right amount of indulgence. It is superbly detailed, with top-notch virtuoso orchestral execution and an audiophile-quality recording. This is one of the most successful performances at convincingly managing the numerous transitions and contrasts, and pulling it all together into a compelling dramatic arch. Philip Smith's trumpet playing is notably astounding, the best of any Scriabin recording I have heard.

*Valery Gergiev, London Symphony Orchestra*
LSO Live, 2015

A superb performance and recording, dazzling in every way. I rate Sinopoli slightly higher because I find that one equally emotive but slightly more coherent in terms of elucidating the symphony's form, and not getting sidetracked. The performance by the New York Philharmonic is just slightly more beautiful as well, although the LSO sound awesome. Certainly a recording to live with.

*Riccardo Muti, Philadelphia Orchestra*
EMI, 1988

This terrific recording is also similar in quality to the Sinopoli, with a comparably superb orchestra. However, the recording itself does not quite have the detail or depth of richness that are present in Sinopoli's, Gergiev's, or Gielen's; it's slightly hazier. Both Muti and Sinopoli are equally convincing in keeping an eye on the symphonic structure, with Muti slightly more on the seductive side and Sinopoli a bit more electric.

*Michael Gielen, Sinfonieorchester des Südwestrundfunks*
Hänssler Classic, 1975

This superb performance was a bit of a surprise to me. But I should have known better: Gielen is outstanding in a huge range of repertoire. This performance is slightly more austere than Muti or Sinopoli, steering clear of getting swamped by the overheated Scriabin sound world, but to my ears it remains detailed, powerful, and entirely convincing. The recording quality is outstanding, capturing the vividness and richness of Scriabin's orchestration effectively, and the orchestra is excellent, if just shy of the level of the New York Philharmonic or Philadelphia Orchestra. Nothing to complain about, though.

*Yevgeny Svetlanov, USSR State Symphony Orchestra*
Russian Disc, 1990

Even in 1990, Soviet recordings were rubbish. The lousy, dim, compressed recording quality mars this intensely realized, white-hot, nearly over-the-top emotional but still well-directed performance. There are many things to like about this recording, even though it takes a couple liberties with the score's tempo indications, but it isn't as polished in the orchestral realm as the recordings I prefer, and, oh yes, the recording is pretty awful. Still worth hearing!

*Michael Pletnev, Russian National Orchestra*
Deutsche Grammophon, 1999

This is a perfectly fine performance. It's professional, well presented, and in good sound. It's also an example of how the superb is the enemy of very good. It's not quite as well executed as the top choices, with a notably disappointing solo trumpet contribution compared with Philip Smith on the Sinopoli recording, but in general not quite as rich and robust as any of the top choices. The interpretation is also fine: it's not idiosyncratic or mannered, although it tends towards being a bit on the slow side. It's very good, really, but also does not generate the electricity I find in the best performances, nor hold the structure of the whole together quite as convincingly. And the recorded sound isn't quite as competitive, either. There's no need to throw away this recording if you own it and like it, but there are definitely more special recordings available. In the end, a bit disappointing.

*Leif Segerstam, Royal Stockholm Symphony*
BIS, 1989

This recording is bonkers. It is over-the-top indulgent, lurching all over the place, and often running against Scriabin's actual markings, usually on the much slower side. The first movement is entitled "_Luttes_," but in Segerstam's hands, struggles are not evident, unless you are referring to struggling in resisting the carnal allure of the Castle Anthrax. Also, Segerstam tinkers distractingly with the scoring, in particular adding bass drum and crash cymbals. This for me rules this recording out as a recommendation. And that's too bad, because the orchestra performs with compelling virtuosity, especially the low brass, and the recording itself is certainly stunning.

*Vladimir Ashkenazy, Radio Symphony Orchestra Berlin*
Decca, 1995

Too dull to be competitive. It's fine, but that's all. The recording quality is better than Svetlanov.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Merl, I deeply resent your daft comparison of the superb Gergiev/LSO Scriabin to Tottenham Hotspur.



Spurs are Ashkenazy: will never win anything but are somehow still happy about it.

ETA: I do wish the Muti were in better sound. I wonder if a remaster from the original source might help? Maybe? Someday? Still, a great performance.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Hahaha...you can tell we wrote these blind! I listened to the Segerstam again the other day and it is 'on the fringes' but I can't help but like it. Tbh, the biggest surprise here (Apart from Segerstam's eccentric percussion choices) is the Gielen which I found really impressive in sound and performance. It's a really good all-rounder. Gotta say the brass playing in the Sinopoli is great though. Are we in agreement that we're yet to get a truly magnificent Scriabin 3 yet, Knorf (as good as some of these are)?


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## Allegro Con Brio (Jan 3, 2020)

Seriously, you two ought to be on YouTube or do a podcast. I would listen to every second of your stuff if it was like this! A seriously informed, intelligent, and thought-provoking survey. Even though I’m basically allergic to Scriabin you make me want to try this symphony.


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Merl said:


> Are we in agreement that we're yet to get a truly magnificent Scriabin 3 yet, Knorf (as good as some of these are)?


I mean, I can imagine a "perfect" performance, but honestly with Sinopoli, Gergiev, Gielen, Muti I think we've got it pretty well covered.

And if some lunatic likes Segerstam, well sure... go ahead... 

Ok, ok. Here's what we're missing for "magnificent." How about one of the great Russian conductors, maybe from a previous generation, with a great orchestra (doesn't have to be Russian, but Mravinsky/Leningrad wouldn't go far amiss) but in audiophile sound?

ETA: although, see, isn't that basically the Gergiev?


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> Seriously, you two ought to be on YouTube or do a podcast. I would listen to every second of your stuff if it was like this!


You would NOT want to hear my scummy Mancunian accent trying to pronounce stuff.



Allegro Con Brio said:


> A seriously informed, intelligent, and thought-provoking survey.


Obviously, that was directed at my expert account and not the tosh that Knorf wrote. :lol:


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## annaw (May 4, 2019)

FINALLY!! Football-themed reviews  ! This totally made my day (or evening, night, whatever) and helped in compensating the summer without the scheduled Euro champs. Guys, this is an amazing thread idea! I definitely need to listen to Scriabin 3 tomorrow.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Very entertaining, and also informative! I'd almost certainly go along with the praise for the Sinopoli recording, which is very fine indeed.

Shame you missed the Inbal recording on Philips, although there are plenty that are better. Then again, change Inbal to "In-bred", and you could have done a Norwich City comparison......:devil:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

Scriabin is emphatically not my (onion) bag, but as a Scouser and lifelong Liverpool fan I enjoyed the discussion too, though we've tended to be compared more to heavy metal than to anything fancy like classical music.


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## mikeh375 (Sep 7, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Scriabin is emphatically not my (onion) bag, but as a Scouser and lifelong Liverpool fan I enjoyed the discussion too, though we've tended to be compared more to heavy metal than to anything fancy like classical music.


...all ditto, except the bit about Scriabin, whom I like. Merl, me and Animal the Drummer above _should_ naturally hate you....


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## JAS (Mar 6, 2013)

Not being a sports fan, I had to look up the meaning of red and yellow flags, and gather than both are meant as indicators of problem performances in this context.


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## Kiki (Aug 15, 2018)

Congratulations, Merl and Knorf. This is a very interesting read.

I have only one recording of Le divin poème, and that's Ashkenazy/RSOBerlin. I'm by no means a Scriabin fanatic, but after reading your surveys, I suspect I've been missing a lot. You guys are bad influence! 

Merl, how come I wasn't surprised that you likened the Muti recording to City on a tough day according to how you described the recording? :lol: I have a Muti #1 but don't listen to it much. I'll need to seek out the rest of his Scriabin now.

The only thing I'd dispute is that, the way you describe the shortcomings of the Pletnev performance, does sound like my beloved Liverpool's calamity on its day off. Unless the performance really sounds as sorry as the Hammers on a bad day... Never mind, I don't care since we've finally won the damn thing after a 30-year gap! But as you know, I often feel curious about bad performances so I'll going to Spotify for it. :lol:


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

mikeh375 said:


> ...all ditto, except the bit about Scriabin, whom I like. Merl, me and Animal the Drummer above _should_ naturally hate you....


Like John Bishop, who actually married one (he describes their kids as "mixed race"), I don't mind Mancs as a general rule. I regard contact with them as missionary work. Of course their football teams are another matter altogether.


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## Elvis (Aug 3, 2020)

Allegro Con Brio said:


> *Seriously, you two ought to be on YouTube or do a podcast. I would listen to every second of your stuff if it was like this! A seriously informed, intelligent, and thought-provoking survey.*


*I know exactly where this is headed...*

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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Lol, cheers Elvis. That made me smile.


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## Barbebleu (May 17, 2015)

I wonder if any of our non-brits have googled the word “pish”. :devil:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Barbebleu said:


> I wonder if any of our non-brits have googled the word "pish". :devil:


Sssssshhhh! 

....


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

The funny thing is that "pish" has older usages ("used to express annoyance, impatience, or disgust", also a birdsong imitation) that are not at all, er, vulgar.

Anyway, being a dim-witted Yank—I know the word, being an enthusiast of UK culture—I admit it doesn't hit my ears as particularly profane.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

^^^ It's not profane in the slightest. Stunningly outdated, though....

Bo//ocks would be better if you want to be a little bit sweary....


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

I think maybe to a Scot's ears it's a bit sweary? I admit that, outside of whisky, Scotch culture is a bit opaque to me. 

Merl is Mancunian, I know. By the way, I happen to know his accent is charming! Mine is Pacific Northwest with a slight tinge of California.

I'm quite fond of a fair amount of British swearing, by the way. It comes from watching so much Arsenal.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

I think in Glaswegian, it has.....ahem....urinary connotations?

And you think they swear at Arsenal? Gawd! Franciscan monks compared to some.

Unless you count "why is there no ***** atmosphere here at The Emirates" or "that was another ***** boring performance to eke out a 1-0 win" as the zenith of profanity?


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## Animal the Drummer (Nov 14, 2015)

CnC Bartok said:


> ^^^ It's not profane in the slightest. Stunningly outdated, though....
> 
> Bo//ocks would be better if you want to be a little bit sweary....


Jasper Carrott used to tell a story about one visit he made to the States when one day he saw a car drive past sporting a licence plate consisting simply of the word which begins your second para. He was with others at the time and they were initially puzzled when he fell about laughing.


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Animal the Drummer said:


> Jasper Carrott used to tell a story about one visit he made to the States when one day he saw a car drive past sporting a licence plate consisting simply of the word which begins your second para. He was with others at the time and they were initially puzzled when he fell about laughing.


Must've been a "Box Deluxe" automobile!!!:lol:


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## Elvis (Aug 3, 2020)

Just an idea - but what about introducing a rating system of some sort - from 1 through ten with decimal breaks e.g. 6.0, 7.5?

The reviews are well-written - insightful analysis - but it would be interesting to know how both of you would place them relative to one another and then in comparison with one another.

Also, do list those recordings which are not part of the project but are your own personal selections for best recording/performance - Which Scriabin 3 would you consider to be a reference recording? Which Scriabin 3 is the one you wish you could wipe completely from your memory?

I like the football analogies - How about changing the title of the thread to - 

"Merl and Knorf - Talking Out Of Their Ar$e(nal)s?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

My rating system would be logarithmic, based on π, and realized on a Möbius strip.



CnC Bartok said:


> And you think they swear at Arsenal? Gawd! Franciscan monks compared to some.


I mean, you're not wrong. But you'll hear all the usual glorious words, often even over broadcast. Less often than some other places, I do admit.

But, you know the joke. What are the three English football teams whose names contain swear words?

Arsenal FC.
Scunthorpe United. 
Manchester F****** United.

And for a Gooner, what do we think of Tottenham?

Looky what I found:


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## realdealblues (Mar 3, 2010)

Knorf said:


> I happen to know his accent is charming!


I don't know that I would call Merl's accent "charming", nor would I call it "scummy" as Merl referred to it himself, but it's certainly "enjoyable" and "memorable"  Now everyone will want to hear it to decide for themselves so spin up the YouTube reviews buddy  :lol:


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Knorf - I always respect those who carry out exhaustive research. Kudos! How come Burnley are bottom? I suppose with their "white lives matter" stunt they're too thick and bigoted to use naughty words?

Football fans' food joke:
I support West Ham, so I'll have some ham.
I'll have some liver, because I support Liverpool
I support Arsenal, but I'm not hungry.

Touche!


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## Elvis (Aug 3, 2020)

What is the thread's walk out song going to be?

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/ranking-every-premier-league-club-by-their-walk-on-music/

What colour and pattern are the scarves going to be?

What's going to be the name of your hooligan firm?


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Those are all critically important questions.


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## Elvis (Aug 3, 2020)

realdealblues said:


> I don't know that I would call *Merl's accent* "charming", nor would I call it "scummy" as Merl referred to it himself, but it's certainly "enjoyable" and "memorable"  Now everyone will want to hear it to decide for themselves so spin up the YouTube reviews buddy  :lol:







Only Merl could verify the authenticity of this Manchester accent video -

Doesn't seem so bad to me - the cadence could use a bit of variation - but otherwise intelligible.

At least with Manc they don't pronounce the two letters "TH" as an "F" - "I'm finkin' of somefin' "

If that actually is the way your accent sounds, Merl, you can do a podcast without fear.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Elvis said:


> Only Merl could verify the authenticity of this Manchester accent video -
> 
> Doesn't seem so bad to me - the cadence could use a bit of variation - but otherwise intelligible.
> 
> ...


Yeah that's a Manchester accent but it's a bit posher and more deliberate than mine anf he's a bit monotone. Mine is a bit rougher, more excitable and I don't often pronounce t's in the middle of words (eg. Natalie would be 'Na-a-ly) '. The guy speaking was born in Manc but moved out to Stockport and its not quite the same and does sound like slightly less abrasive Manc. Even after 8 years up here in Scotland I'm still very Manc. Once you're in your 50s you don't lose your accent. My dad is from Horwich, Bolton and he's never lost his Bolton accent either and he's been in New Zealand for over 10 years and there's not a trace of kiwi (think Peter Kay).


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## CnC Bartok (Jun 5, 2017)

Being from the Home Counties, where we don't actually have accents, I find this is the most reasonable approach to the problem of Northerners and their accents:


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

All the Mancunian accent pishtalk aside, I do hope a few people who are skeptical about Scriabin, or simply haven't heard much of his oeuvre yet, will give _Le Divin Poème_ a go. It's quite the late-Romantic orchestral showpiece, and one with greater depth than it lets on at the first listen.

The Gergiev/LSO is an easy first recommendation because it's excellent, readily available, and inexpensive. But you can also get the Muti complete box still, albeit you might have to hunt around a bit for a good price. Sinopoli, though, is the one I listen to the most.


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Great stuff guys - football references made me smile. If I could add a little comment of my own Segerstams could be Barcelona (I know its not Premier league but hey ho) - plenty of skill, with elements that are astounding but ultimately falling apart at the seams.

Whats next - the ring cycle with American Football references.........


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Malx said:


> Great stuff guys - football references made me smile. If I could add a little comment of my own Segerstams could be Barcelona (I know its not Premier league but hey ho) - plenty of skill, with elements that are astounding but ultimately falling apart at the seams.
> 
> Whats next - the ring cycle with American Football references.........


I'm afraid Wagner operas to me are like trying to teach the offside rule to the lost tribes of the Amazon. :lol:

Incidentally, Knorf and I plan to do another one of these soon (plans are in hand). It will be another symphony that we both like (but isn't by one of the major composers). I'm saying no more. Would you like me to write mine in a particular style or with a theme?


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## Malx (Jun 18, 2017)

Merl said:


> I'm afraid Wagner operas to me are like trying to teach the offside rule to the lost tribes of the Amazon. :lol:
> 
> Incidentally, Knorf and I plan to do another one of these soon (plans are in hand). It will be another symphony that we both like (but isn't by one of the major composers). I'm saying no more. Would you like me to write mine in a particular style or with a theme?


I'm sure you will come up with something suitably amusing, but a little thought did cross my mind - do you think Knorf could do his comments in the style of David Hurwitz :devil:


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Malx said:


> I'm sure you will come up with something suitably amusing, but a little thought did cross my mind - do you think Knorf could do his comments in the style of David Hurwitz :devil:


That same thought had already crossed my mind. :lol:


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## Knorf (Jan 16, 2020)

Never gonna happen.


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## Merl (Jul 28, 2016)

Knorf said:


> Never gonna happen.


Are you sure, Knorf? Go on, go, on, go on Father Jack!


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