# Circle of Fifths - Post-Classical Era



## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

It can be 5 seconds long, and in the simplest way, maybe even mainstream, but I always find a Circle of Fifths so satisfying, especially when you don’t expect it.

Of course, you could link me Bach or Vivaldi’s music so I can listen to it for hours and hours. Though, as much as I like their music, I’m much more of a classical/romantic lover. I know Mozart and Haydn weren’t against using the CoF as well (unlike Beethoven), though they are much more expected, less of a surprise.

Anyways, I’ve been digging a lot around the 19th Century and a little bit of the 20th, hoping to find rare little passages of an unexpected Circle of Fifths, itfeels so much more rewarding and romantic in later music, unlike Vivaldi’s concertos, where it’s just a question of seconds before you hear it.

I love the ones found in Brahm’s Piano Concertos, Schumann’s piano works, or even Chopin’s 1st etude, Schubert Impromptus 899 #2, Rachmaninoff’s Kreisler - Liebesfreud...

Some other surprises I could find are hidden in music like Wagner’s Die Meistersinger Act II : Jerum, Dvorak Piano Concerto’s 3rd Mov,

I’m curious to know if anyone else has that same love for the CoF in post-classical era.

If so, let me know your favourites? I wouldn’t mind feeding a little more to my playlist! ^-^


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Passages featuring the circle of fifths are effective because they're focused expressions of the basis of Western music's tonal syntax, concentrating tonality's progressive force into a brief and striking moment. If composers are canny they'll save the device for moments when great kinetic impetus and emotional excitement are needed, often heading into a climax, and combine it with melodic sequences to ratchet up the excitement.

I also like passages where the harmony is chromatically altered but the circle of fifths is still the basis 9f it. Wagner does this especially well: I'm thinking especially of the moment in the third act of _Parsifal_ after Gurnemanz recognizes the sacred spear, where he addresses Parsifal, "O Herr! War es ein Fluch..." in a passage of deep tenderness. The bass line descends chromatically, but the circle of fifths is implied and exercises its peculiar emotive power.


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

I’m not the most familiar with Wagner yet, it takes a while for a young ear to enjoy Opera. I’m slowly starting to get it. I’ll look into this one, thanks!


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## SONNET CLV (May 31, 2014)

*Circle of Fifths - Post-Classical Era*

That should include the jazz era, and the progression pops up quite a bit in jazz tunes. Off hand, I recall "Fly Me To The Moon".

A friend named Bruce is a guitar player (classically trained) and plays locally in various venues. One of his regular tunes is "Fly Me To The Moon". I remain a "somewhat" guitarist, but watch Bruce carefully when he plays because he has interesting hand positions, both right and left. I composed an etude of chord changes to help me mimic Bruce's fingerings; I called it "Bruce-etudes" and told him about it and when he asked what it was like I said something like "exercises around the circle of fifths", which brought a smile to his face.

I should get back to practicing.


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

SONNET CLV said:


> I should get back to practicing.


So should I. 

Yes, I've heard about CoF being popular in Jazz, though, I haven't been touched too much by Jazz - yet!

But I'll look ino that piece!


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## Vasks (Dec 9, 2013)

I know you want "Classical" examples but the first CoF that I ever learned was the pop song from the musical "The Fantasticks" called "Try to Remember" (in G, the refrain shown below is iii-vi-ii-V7-I done several times)


Bm 
Try to re-

Em
member, the 

Am
kind of Sep-

D7
tember, when 

G
you were a 

Em
tender and 

Am
callow 

D7
fellow. 

G
Try to 

Em
remember, and 

Am
if you re-

D7
member, then

G
follow.


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## Bwv 1080 (Dec 31, 2018)

Chugging through the circle of fifths as a compositional device fell out of favor during the Romantic period. Sort of like having shag carpet or big lapels in the 1980s.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Bwv 1080 said:


> Chugging through the circle of fifths as a compositional device fell out of favor during the Romantic period. Sort of like having shag carpet or big lapels in the 1980s.


Evidently Schumann, Brahms, Wagner and Mahler were into retro fashions, though I'm not sure that chugging was ever considered stylish.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Although I know what the circle of fifths is theoretically, I was never aware if it being used as a progression as a compositional device (I'm not that kind of a listener). There are probably passages that employ it that I know without knowing it. Can you name some?


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

An example that comes readily to mind is in the third movement of the Schumann piano concerto. He uses circle of fifths progressions at several points in the movement, but most conspicuously at 9:18 here:






Wagner makes powerful use of them throughout the "transformation" interlude from Act 1 of Parsifal:


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

It was mentioned above that Beethoven was averse to using the circle of fifths, which is a bit of an exaggeration, so here's a conspicuous example taken from the Waldstein Sonata. Check it out at about the 18:42 mark:


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

Woodduck said:


> An example that comes readily to mind is in the third movement of the Schumann piano concerto. He uses circle of fifths progressions at several points in the movement, but most conspicuously at 9:18 here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! ,


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

The first movement and finale of the little A Major Piano Sonata of Schubert (Op. 120) have a number of passages employing circle-of-fifths progressions, often with chromatic base lines. The progressions are chromatic rather than diatonic circles and mostly occur in transitional or closing passages.


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

Eschbeg said:


> It was mentioned above that Beethoven was averse to using the circle of fifths, which is a bit of an exaggeration, so here's a conspicuous example taken from the Waldstein Sonata. Check it out at about the 18:42 mark:


Wow, after listening to it so much in the past few years - it being my favourite movement of any beethoven's sonatas - I've never really seen it this way, it surely is not the good old conventional way to do it, I was always distracted with the beautiful major-minor switch during that part.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2019)

I wrote this one using the circle of fifths continuously for the entire piece:

https://www.talkclassical.com/23798-concerto-grosso.html?highlight=


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## Eschbeg (Jul 25, 2012)

ojoncas said:


> Wow, after listening to it so much in the past few years - it being my favourite movement of any beethoven's sonatas - I've never really seen it this way, it surely is not the good old conventional way to do it, I was always distracted with the beautiful major-minor switch during that part.


Immediately after the passage I singled out, starting at about the 18:56 mark, is another circle of fifths, albeit with the harmonic rhythm slowed down: m. 251 in rooted in C, m. 257 in F, m. 263 in Bb, m. 269 in Eb, m. 271 in Ab, m. 273 in Db, m. 275 in G, and m. 277 in C.


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## MarkW (Feb 16, 2015)

EdwardBast said:


> The first movement and finale of the little A Major Piano Sonata of Schubert (Op. 120) have a number of passages employing circle-of-fifths progressions, often with chromatic base lines. The progressions are chromatic rather than diatonic circles and mostly occur in transitional or closing passages.


Thanks, I'll listen (or play it in my head).


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

Jerome said:


> I wrote this one using the circle of fifths continuously for the entire piece:
> 
> https://www.talkclassical.com/23798-concerto-grosso.html?highlight=


Have you more to show?


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## ojoncas (Jan 3, 2019)

Bruckner really was into it though, after exploring all his symphonies


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