# Hymn Verse Skipping



## hreichgott

Has anyone encountered the practice of skipping verses in hymns if there are more than 3 or 4 verses?

It has always bothered me, and I do not understand the reasons. Thankfully the church where I work was happy to end this practice when I asked politely. So I did not need to become a raving lunatic! ut:
But I'm not exactly sure... why.

The obvious answer is "too many verses takes too long." But most hymn verses are something like 10-20 seconds long, so even a 6-verse hymn isn't going to take more than 2 minutes or so. The truly long hymns are the slow late 19th/early 20th c. gospel weepers that have long verses and a long refrain after every verse.... but nobody ever skips verses on those because there are only about 3 verses usually.

Maybe it psychologically feels like the hymn is going on forever when people's eyes have to keep going back to the top of the page? (instead of... to the next page, as you do for a long refrain?)
...and what would be bad about a hymn going on forever? Better that than announcements or many other spoken portions of the service going on forever...

Or are the verse skippers just people who don't like congregational singing?

(Wow! This is the first time I have begun a thread about an issue on which I have extremely dogmatic opinions.
Good thing this is the politics and religion area.
Just don't get me started on the scale fingerings...)


----------



## Celloman

Hreichgott, this bothers me too! Some hymns are designed so that the verses naturally progress. (For example: "Original Sin" to "grace" to "heaven".) If one of these verses is left out, the hymn may not seem as complete or make sense.


----------



## david johnson

Verse skipping has been around for many years. The most common is to use 1st, 2nd, and last verse. I've seen a hymnal that presents most songs edited into a 3-verse format. I believe in the book's case it was done to include more selections w/o increasing the publishing expense.
I do it on occasion as I direct the singing at church.


----------



## Taggart

It depends on how you see the purpose of hymn singing and how it fits into the service.

For example, we use the Pange Lingua Gloriosi on Maundy Thursday for the translation of the Eucharist to the altar of repose - it's a slow procession but only use 4 verses - the other two verses starting Tantum Ergo Sacramentum (which is also used as a separate hymn) are sung at the altar of repose during the incensing of the Blessed Sacrament. That's a typical pattern also for an entrance hymn - 3-4 verses to process on and 1 or 2 verses to incense the altar. You can do it with between 4 and 6 verses depending on the hymn and then on with the rest of the service. The other uses are during the offertory where you have a collection and then bring the gifts up. You can either curtail the hymn to continue the service aloud or continue the service sotto voce during the singing - the rubrics allow both. Different churches and priests have different traditions. Similarly during communion, you can sing a hymn and then continue. The most common place for truncation is at the end, where the priest usually waits at the door so that there is a shorter processional period and a need for a shorter hymn. A competent organist will choose suitable hymns by length, but sometimes for specific feasts there are going to be specific hymns to be used and if they are too long, they will need truncating.

In non-conformist churches there is a greater emphasis on the Word of God than in Catholic and Anglican churches where the emphasis is more on the liturgy, so there is, perhaps, more emphasis on hymns and their words.

There is also the point that some verses may be dropped because of political correctness, for example the third verse of All Things Bright and Beautiful:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

Not to say what is done to some hymns to make them more "acceptable" to modern ears.


----------



## hreichgott

Wow, Taggart, I've never heard that verse before!
The "poor man at his gate" sounds immediately like Dives...


----------



## Taggart

See wiki for the full lyrics including a Canadian version, and a specific note on verse 3. I think you're quite right to name Dives and Lazarus as a possible source.


----------



## Krummhorn

In my church (Lutheran), we never drop any verses ... with one exception ... there is a lenten hymn with 23 verses - we break them down into 3 to 5 verse 'sets' for each weekend service during Lent ... otherwise, we sing them all for continuity sake. 

In the RC parish I used to play, they would chop verses out like crazy ... only enough verses to get clergy from one point to another, and that was all she wrote - used to drive me insane. I did work once with a priest who absolutely loved the organ and hymn singing and we would do all the verses all the time. 

KH ♫


----------



## DavidA

Charles Wesley wrote many verses to his hymns - up to 20+ sometimes. So what we sing is selection anyway.


----------



## Turangalîla

I agree that verses should never be cut...it is not unlike ignoring repeat signs in classical performance!


----------



## DavidA

CarterJohnsonPiano said:


> I agree that verses should never be cut...it is not unlike ignoring repeat signs in classical performance!


Thankfully I belong to a tradition which is more likely to repeat the verses because we enjoy singing them!


----------



## JohannesBrahms

In my church(Apostolic Pentecostal) we don't skip hymn verses, which I am glad of. We do the hymns in sort of a Southern gospel style. Most of the songs we do are more contemporary worship songs, but we usually do a hymn on Sunday mornings, sometimes on Sunday nights. Most of the hymns have three(I'll Fly Away, He Set Me Free) or four(Over in the Gloryland, All in Him) verses.


----------



## Ingélou

When I was at school, we all liked 'All creatures of our God & King', based on St Francis' _Canticles of the Sun_, but the verse about Death had an asterisk on and I don't think we ever sang it. It's probably healthier to face up to death, but maybe the teachers were worried that parents would complain?

What bothers me more than skipping verses is _changing or modernising the texts_. Who do these people think they are, changing the words of John Milton?  I just love his 'Let us with a gladsome mind' with its beautiful archaisms - 'The horned moon to shine by night/ Mid her spangled sisters bright'.

I developed my love of poetry from these hymns & remember sitting on the swing in our backyard crooning to myself 'His chariots of wrath the deep thunderclouds form/ And dark is his path on the wings of the storm' (from O worship the King). At eight years old, I had no idea what the words meant, but who cares...? :lol:


----------



## Lunasong

Our music director and pastor got in a discussion about this which I remember. The music director said the hymn-writer wrote each verse for a reason and none should be cut; whilst the pastor was amenable to cutting away to keep the service shorter. MY opinion is the service should be just as long as it needs to be to praise God.

There have been other changes along the way made to service to make it shorter. My current pet peeve is queuing up for Communion after just having started to sing the _Agnus Dei_. This is fine and dandy for all those back-church sitters, but I sit in the front and would really like this quiet moment with my God before I have to get up.


----------



## Taggart

Lunasong said:


> Our music director and pastor got in a discussion about this which I remember. The music director said the hymn-writer wrote each verse for a reason and none should be cut; whilst the pastor was amenable to cutting away to keep the service shorter. MY opinion is the service should be just as long as it needs to be to praise God.
> 
> There have been other changes along the way made to service to make it shorter. My current pet peeve is queuing up for Communion after just having started to sing the _Agnus Dei_. This is fine and dandy for all those back-church sitters, but I sit in the front and would really like this quiet moment with my God before I have to get up.


Trouble with missing out the Domine non sum dignus which gives one a chance to consider one's unworthiness before daring to approach the altar of the Lord.


----------



## rborganist

In some hymns this is a problem; in others, less so. It is often a problem in Christmas carols, where the story will be incomplete if one skips a verse. A notable exception is "I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day." Longfellow originally wrote seven verses for it, but two of them referred specifically to the American Civil War. They have for many years been cut without affecting the sense of the poetry. However, to omit any of the current verses would make the verses which follow difficult to understand. And please, don't try to sing it to any other tune than "Waltham"; no other tune even comes close to fitting the text as well.

There are some hymns (including "Veni Emmanuel") where certain verses are assigned for certain point in the Advent season. In that case, not singing every verse makes sense. This seems to apply mainly to hymns which are specific to a major season in the liturgical year.


----------



## Love Jesus love Hymns

I agree, it has happened a lot in the church I attended. Not only do they skip verses but lately they have been adding verses that don’t even go with the hymn. 

They feel so comfortable and fine with skipping verses from Hymns to “save time” yet they make sure to sing every part of this new radio song and make sure to repeat everything again. Is it just me or do these new “worship” songs repeat themselves like crazy?


----------



## haydnguy

Love Jesus love Hymns said:


> I agree, it has happened a lot in the church I attended. Not only do they skip verses but lately they have been adding verses that don't even go with the hymn.
> 
> They feel so comfortable and fine with skipping verses from Hymns to "save time" yet they make sure to sing every part of this new radio song and make sure to repeat everything again. Is it just me or do these new "worship" songs repeat themselves like crazy?


They do keep repeating lyrics in the relatively new "worship music" that is popular in churches today. I once decided to count and they sang the same lyrics 15 times in a row! No thank you.

As far as hymns, I personally like those much better. As you say many times they skip verses to save time. Many times they will sing the first and last verse. This doesn't bother me as much.


----------



## larold

This goes on all the time where I attend. One reason is the placement of hymns and the minister's sermon duration. Our services are supposed to last an hour and we have a long winded minister. Not many people are willing to stand for 7 verses of a hymn when they want to get on with their Sunday.


----------



## david johnson

I lead singing at church often, have for years. Many hymnals have already chopped out song verses. I tend to do a complete selection for the Communion Hymn and the hymn right before the lesson. Often I keep others to 3 verses. What aggravates me is when the power-pointeer only gives 2 verses rather than what I selected...lol.


----------



## pianozach

There's another reason verses are cut, although it's related to keeping the hymns short.

You keep the hymns short to keep the service moving along.

You keep the service moving along so that it is interesting.

You keep it interesting so that parishioners will return.

You want parishioners to return so that your church doesn't stagnate and die.

Church attendance is down nationwide.


----------



## bharbeke

Generally, I have seen that the music director knows about how long the music should go for in each part of the Mass and picks verses accordingly. I do not mind if a verse or two are skipped if it means that the ones with the most applicability to the readings or feast day are sung.


----------



## Krummhorn

Things have changed since my last post in this thread from 2013. In 2016 I resigned from my previous church position and took an organist/pianist position in a much larger Lutheran church. 

We do selected verses of the hymns ... not for the sake of time, but to include those verses whose words apply the best to the theme of a particular service. Careful thought is done and approval by the pastors before that hymn list is published and made available to the music staff a month in advance. 

At communion we usually sing all the verses ... the pastors will have the congregation stand for the final part of the last communion hymn. If, and only if we are running late, I, as the organist, have the sole discretion to cut verses for the sake of time. If it's 10:22am and the next service needs to start at 10:30am (which is another building other than the sanctuary) the pastors need sufficient time to recess/greet parishioners before moving on to the next service.


----------



## DavidA

pianozach said:


> There's another reason verses are cut, although it's related to keeping the hymns short.
> 
> You keep the hymns short to keep the service moving along.
> 
> You keep the service moving along so that it is interesting.
> 
> You keep it interesting so that parishioners will return.
> 
> You want parishioners to return so that your church doesn't stagnate and die.
> 
> Church attendance is down nationwide.
> 
> View attachment 129241


Church attendance is up in the churches I attend. The worship is loud and vibrant and attuned to the modern idiom. People don't seem to realise that the worship (eg) of the Wesleys was revolutionary in its day yet still want to keep with the old traditions which are now out of synch with the modern generation. Unfortunately if we keep to the old traditions they will die off with that generation.


----------



## Festus

Taggart: "In non-conformist churches ..." you mean evangelical, correct?


----------



## Taggart

Festus said:


> Taggart: "In non-conformist churches ..." you mean evangelical, correct?


I was thinking (initially) of the Calvinist tradition e.g. the multifarious branches of Scottish Presbyterianism.


----------



## SixFootScowl

In *my church* we will sing 3 of 4 verses or all four, but on longer hymns with more than 4 verses, we generally don't sing the whole hymn. We do sing for 15 minutes before church (30 minutes on Wednesday). Also a hymn after the first reading (Old Testament) and another hymn after the sermon. We don't have a liturgy, which is great after 35 years in the Lutheran church, I am happy to have more hymns and no liturgy. We (shoiuld say they as I am musically incompetent) sing all four harmony lines, which messes me up but sounds wonderful.


----------



## DavidA

haydnguy said:


> They do keep repeating lyrics in the relatively new "worship music" that is popular in churches today. I once decided to count and they sang the same lyrics 15 times in a row! No thank you.
> 
> As far as hymns, I personally like those much better. As you say many times they skip verses to save time. Many times they will sing the first and last verse. This doesn't bother me as much.


Of course similar comments such as these were made about the 'new' hymns by Watts and Wesley in the 18th century. People feel safe the their style of worship is not threatened by change.


----------

