# How much is an average symphony orchestra worth?



## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Are there any research on how much a orchestra worth? Taken the following factors into consideration, an orchestra could be worth more than meets the eye.

Instruments cost
Education
Experience
Salary
Backend support
Equipment
Location
Good will 
Audience equity

The list could be endless. I am wondering what are your thoughts on this topic.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

On the theory that an orchestra is worth what somebody might be willing to pay for it, probably zero. Costs of running an orchestra in a big city in the US may exceed $50 million annually. Only 30-40% of this can usually be covered through ticket revenue; the remainder has to be contributed as charity since almost no government funding is available in the US.

Definitely not a get-rich-quick business that has buyers beating the doors down.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

You know what? My sister, who plays violin in her university orchestra, texted me only a day or two ago and was really ticked off about audience members who get on their phones during performances. A very inconsiderate and distracting habit. This is exactly what she told me:
- The orchestra usually has 70 people on stage. 
- According to recent statistics, one working classical musician spends on average $500,000 on education and instrument upkeep expenses (reeds, strings, mouthpieces, etc). This doesn't even include living and travel expenses. 
- This means that a 70-piece orchestra is worth $35,000,000, and that is personnel alone. 
- Yet, you prefer to open Facebook to see what Chris and Tiffany had for dinner, while these musicians are right in front of you sharing decades of experience, education, and the fruits of their expenses? 

Needless to say, orchestras are worth a TON of money, and I think it's very important to have this discussion. Society has a very bad habit of undervaluing entertainment or things perceived as entertainment. I guess buying that ticket that costs a micro-fraction of what musicians spend in both time and money preparing their concert for you somehow entitles you to act how YOU want during the concert! 
Stepping off soapbox now, before I derail the thread too early.....


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Gordontrek said:


> - The orchestra usually has 70 people on stage.
> - According to recent statistics, one working classical musician spends on average $500,000 on education and instrument upkeep expenses (reeds, strings, mouthpieces, etc). This doesn't even include living and travel expenses.
> - This means that a 70-piece orchestra is worth $35,000,000, and that is personnel alone.


Well, that's what it costs to put those people on stage. The question is, what's it worth? A very different thing.


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## Gordontrek (Jun 22, 2012)

KenOC said:


> Well, that's what it costs to put those people on stage. The question is, what's it worth? A very different thing.


Indeed, but should it not be included in the "price tag," so to speak?


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Gordontrek said:


> Indeed, but should it not be included in the "price tag," so to speak?


"Should" is a value-loaded word! If I spend $10 million to become the world's greatest authority on Klingon, does my value start counting from $10 million? Value to whom?

If it costs me $100 to make a hamburger, is that hamburger "worth" $100?

Orchestras fail every year because their communities judge they cost more than they're worth.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

The "worth" are mainly the quality of the members, the conductor and any performance/recording rights the orchestra might have.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

ArtMusic said:


> The "worth" are mainly the quality of the members, the conductor and any performance/recording rights the orchestra might have.


Exactly not forgetting the "brand " name, like V.P/ B.O / R.C.O


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

My impression is that classical musicians are for the most part not good at all at marketing themselves. Alas, in the modern, multicultural world, they'll have to learn to do so if they want to keep their jobs.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Beethoven complained about having to be "half a businessman" to survive but seemed to be pretty good at it!


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

brianvds said:


> My impression is that classical musicians are for the most part not good at all at marketing themselves. Alas, in the modern, multicultural world, they'll have to learn to do so if they want to keep their jobs.


Nope. The "modern, multicultural world" with all the marketing gimmicks comes and goes, but the art remains. The art should not adjust itself to the modern zeitgeist.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

SiegendesLicht said:


> The art should not adjust itself to the modern zeitgeist.


When was it different? When did composers not market themselves to authorities in the church, to the aristocracy, to their employers, to publishers? Art survived nonetheless.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

KenOC said:


> On the theory that an orchestra is worth what somebody might be willing to pay for it, probably zero. Costs of running an orchestra in a big city in the US may exceed $50 million annually. Only 30-40% of this can usually be covered through ticket revenue; the remainder has to be contributed as charity since almost no government funding is available in the US.
> 
> Definitely not a get-rich-quick business that has buyers beating the doors down.


I didn't know that this was the case. Very interesting.

Same in the UK?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

Search for Philharmonic-Symphony in the NY Charities Registry (Charitiesnys.com). I tried posting a direct link but it didn't work. Then look at the Annual Filings. This is a public record.

Not sure if this tells you what an orchestra is "worth," but it does provide info on what it costs and where its revenue comes from. And it includes a balance sheet.

Edit - here is an extract.

View attachment Pages from ny phil financials.pdf


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## brianvds (May 1, 2013)

SiegendesLicht said:


> Nope. The "modern, multicultural world" with all the marketing gimmicks comes and goes, but the art remains. The art should not adjust itself to the modern zeitgeist.


Indeed, but I am not suggesting that the art needs to adjust; only the way in which it is marketed (which, at present, is often not at all.)

As for the art adjusting, there is always some need to compromise with audiences. There is nothing new to this either. Haydn did not write dozens and dozens of baryton trios because he felt particularly inspired to do so.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

The cost of classical music far outstrips any other kind of art - and pays back less than any other kind of art. 

I know the husband of a fairly well known soloist who describes music as a "mugs game"

I wont go into the costs in detail of a young person learning and instrument and getting to pro level - but is must be something in the range of £100K (lessons with quality teachers costing £60 to £100 an hour). plus cost of a degree (Bmus) will bring that to £150K. cost of a decent violin £20K+ maintainence etc - what a headache

It really is a mugs game.

and orchestras are worth - zilch! they are virtually all subsidised so not financially viable and hence worth nothing at all.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Gordontrek said:


> You know what? My sister, who plays violin in her university orchestra, texted me only a day or two ago and was really ticked off about audience members who get on their phones during performances. A very inconsiderate and distracting habit. This is exactly what she told me:
> - The orchestra usually has 70 people on stage.
> - According to recent statistics, one working classical musician spends on average $500,000 on education and instrument upkeep expenses (reeds, strings, mouthpieces, etc). This doesn't even include living and travel expenses.
> - This means that a 70-piece orchestra is worth $35,000,000, and that is personnel alone.
> ...


Wow, the number really adds up to run an orchestra. Definitely, I do not have the money to buy one.

Having this consideration, investing $20 to buy a CD from an reputable orchestra is a cost effective way to support them!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

stomanek said:


> The cost of classical music far outstrips any other kind of art - and pays back less than any other kind of art.
> 
> I know the husband of a fairly well known soloist who describes music as a "mugs game"
> 
> ...


In the U.S. the most valuable asset of an orchestra is its 501(c)(3) letter from the Internal Revenue Service - meaning they don't have to pay income taxes and contributors get a tax deduction. (And by the way, Trump has made noises about discontinuing the charitable deduction.)

Edit - being a lawyer, I should note that the tax treatment described above is the general rule, but there are exceptions.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

pcnog11 said:


> Wow, the number really adds up to run an orchestra. Definitely, I do not have the money to buy one.
> 
> Having this consideration, investing $20 to buy a CD from an reputable orchestra is a cost effective way to support them!


I doubt that much more than 1$ of that 20 ends up at the orchestra's financial books.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Art Rock said:


> I doubt that much more than 1$ of that 20 ends up at the orchestra's financial books.


I've heard once that they only get paid just for the recording, no royalties later whatsoever.


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## janxharris (May 24, 2010)

Anyone know how much an orchestral player makes - say per concert? How about the conductor? And the composer(s)?

That musicians still earn a living does mean that the orchestra is still worth something - even if it relies on patronage. Same with Beethoven etc.


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## SiegendesLicht (Mar 4, 2012)

KenOC said:


> When was it different? When did composers not market themselves to authorities in the church, to the aristocracy, to their employers, to publishers? Art survived nonetheless.





brianvds said:


> Indeed, but I am not suggesting that the art needs to adjust; only the way in which it is marketed (which, at present, is often not at all.)
> 
> As for the art adjusting, there is always some need to compromise with audiences. There is nothing new to this either. Haydn did not write dozens and dozens of baryton trios because he felt particularly inspired to do so.


Sure, but the times and the audience was different back then. If classical musicians started to aggressively market themselves to the broad audience of today, I am afraid we would be stuck with CDs of "Most Relaxing Classical Music" or "Music for Studying", or "24 Best Classical Adagios" consisting of chopped up parts of classical pieces.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

How much is an average symphony orchestra worth?

For the person that has everything?

I can go as high as $1159.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

Pugg said:


> I've heard once that they only get paid just for the recording, no royalties later whatsoever.


I knew a soloist who made about 50 CDs for chandos - she said she was paid for the recording plus royalties. she smiled when she said the word royalties and said on those 50 recordings she had a cheque once a year for under 100 pounds.


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## Haydn man (Jan 25, 2014)

pcnog11 said:


> Are there any research on how much a orchestra worth? Taken the following factors into consideration, an orchestra could be worth more than meets the eye.
> 
> Instruments cost
> Education
> ...


Have you found one on eBay to bid for?


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

janxharris said:


> Anyone know how much an orchestral player makes - say per concert? How about the conductor? And the composer(s)?
> 
> That musicians still earn a living does mean that the orchestra is still worth something - even if it relies on patronage. Same with Beethoven etc.


"Musicians of the New York Philharmonic ratified a new contract December 13. The contract is retroactive to September 20, 2013, when the previous deal expired. Musicians will see modest wage increases in each of the contract's four years, for a total wage increase of 6.5%. That will bring base salaries to $146,848 by the final year."

See also:

http://work.chron.com/pay-scale-average-member-orchestra-5246.html

http://www.local802afm.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/ballet_opera_single.pdf


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Base salary is the minimum that a new full-time player must be paid by contract. Usually, most players are paid more, either through seniority and raises over time or simply because they were brought in at a higher salary for whatever reason. In some orchestras, the concertmaster makes more than the conductor.

Aside from salaries, pensions, health insurance, and other benefits add to personnel costs, just as in any other business. An unusual benefit in orchestras is, quite often, the provision of insurance on the players' instruments, which can be quite costly. Lately some orchestras have, in bargaining, proposed pushing that expense back on the individual players.


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## PlaySalieri (Jun 3, 2012)

jegreenwood said:


> "Musicians of the New York Philharmonic ratified a new contract December 13. The contract is retroactive to September 20, 2013, when the previous deal expired. Musicians will see modest wage increases in each of the contract's four years, for a total wage increase of 6.5%. That will bring base salaries to $146,848 by the final year."
> 
> See also:
> 
> ...


I think the new york phil in an exception though.
I know in the usa orch players earn much more than in europe.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Art Rock said:


> I doubt that much more than 1$ of that 20 ends up at the orchestra's financial books.


Anyway you look at it, it is a great ROI!!


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## jegreenwood (Dec 25, 2015)

stomanek said:


> I think the new york phil in an exception though.
> I know in the usa orch players earn much more than in europe.


Yes, the comp for the NY Phil is high. The Chron article I attached has comp for some other U.S. orchestras. And the other article sets out the union wages in NYC overall.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

I did an orchestra survey a few years ago. The highest base salaries were Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, and San Francisco, grouped closely. A few others were about $10K back. Base salaries in some of the top-20 orchestras were less than half those in the leaders.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Haydn man said:


> Have you found one on eBay to bid for?


Not yet, it is just a matter of time.


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

pcnog11 said:


> Not yet, it is just a matter of time.


Maybe you should look for a chamber orchestra. Would be more cost effective.


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## pcnog11 (Nov 14, 2016)

Good point! Do you know if there is any on sale?


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## SixFootScowl (Oct 17, 2011)

pcnog11 said:


> Good point! Do you know if there is any on sale?


No, but I read that Felix Mendelssohn's parents bought him a chamber orchestra to play with. Maybe you can ask for it for your birthday or Christmas.


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