# was Duke Ellington the greatest composer of the 20th century?



## MusicFree (Jun 16, 2014)

if not, who do you choose instead


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## brotagonist (Jul 11, 2013)

I know it's fashionable to call all songwriters and musicians of other genres, particularly jazz (look up the lists on Wikipedia, for example), composers and, if I am not mistaken, Ellington did indeed compose some things in a purportedly formal fashion, but I, a mere listener, see him as a jazz artist. I like his stuff and have a number of his albums. I make an informal lay distinction between classical and jazz, or classical and other genres, although there is some music that is difficult to classify that way. Ellington's is not music that gives me a problem with classification. That's just the way I hear him.

Who do I choose instead? That I couldn't possibly answer in less than 10,000 words


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Not even top100 for me. Mahler would be my choice.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

No such thing as best.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

Seriously?
Ellington over Schnittke, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Strauss, Adams, Cage, Berio, Ligeti, Webern, Berg, Stockhausen, Mahler, Debussy, Reich, Penderecki, Copland, Tavener, Arnold, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...


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## MusicFree (Jun 16, 2014)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Seriously?
> Ellington over Schnittke, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Strauss, Adams, Cage, Berio, Ligeti, Webern, Berg, Stockhausen, Mahler, Debussy, Reich, Penderecki, Copland, Tavener, Arnold, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...


don't you think he deserves at least a top 10 spot for 20th century?, for being diverse and highly prolific at least


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

MusicFree said:


> don't you think he deserves at least a top 10 spot for 20th century?, for being diverse and highly prolific at least


Obviously there is no objective list, but my top 10 (in no particular order) would be something along the lines of Schnittke, Stravinsky, Ligeti, Berio, Prokofiev, Schoenberg, Penderecki, Shostakovich, Debussy, and Mahler.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Do you have particular works of Ellington in mind that you would consider among the very greatest music written since 1900?


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

MusicFree said:


> if not, who do you choose instead


If we stay within jazz, there are no lesser composers at least, such as Mingus, Miles, Monk. Anthony Braxton, Ornette Coleman, and some others.

Or, from different angle, jazz musicians most often play "standards", music by Gershwins, Cole Porter, Harold Arlen, Irvin Berlin, Johnny Mercer, etc.

P.S.: Did you know some of the most famous compositions, performed by Ellington's band were composed by others (Strayhorn, Tizol)?


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## MusicFree (Jun 16, 2014)

AnotherSpin said:


> If we stay within jazz, there are no lesser composers at least, such as Mingus, Miles, Monk. Anthony Braxton, Ornette Coleman, and some others.
> 
> Or, from different angle, jazz musicians most often play "standards", music by Gershwins, Cole Porter, Harold Arlen, Irvin Berlin, Johnny Mercer, etc.
> 
> P.S.: Did you know some of the most famous compositions, performed by Ellington's band were composed by others (Strayhorn, Tizol)?


i wasn't talking just jazz specifically, but more of a general question encompassing all genres


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Interesting question. DE was a very capable composer and not surprisingly he is much, much better remembered as an artist and composer today than many other twentieth century composer. He composed fine music that reached out to anyone who listened and was successful with many of his listeners.


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## Badinerie (May 3, 2008)

I think he's very beautiful, very sweet and I do love him madly. Not sure if I'de vote him over Cole Porter as a composer, as much as I love him!


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

MusicFree said:


> i wasn't talking just jazz specifically, but more of a general question encompassing all genres


 That is why I noted "if we stay within jazz". If we go beyond, than his achievements as a composer will only go into... diminuendo


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)

Another thing to consider is that many of Ellington's greatest works were written or arranged by Billy Strayhorn.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Why is this thread existing under "Classical Music Discussion"?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

Perhaps because some people have a broader concept of what qualifies as "classical music".


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

If the songs of Poulenc and Ned Rorem, the works of Nikolai Kasputin, William Bolcoms rags, the dance music of Arab-Andalusian Spain, the waltzes of Johann Strauss II, the operettas of Offenbach and others all qualify as "classical music" what disqualifies Duke Ellington?


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Seriously?
> Ellington over Schnittke, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Strauss, Adams, Cage, Berio, Ligeti, Webern, Berg, Stockhausen, Mahler, Debussy, Reich, Penderecki, Copland, Tavener, Arnold, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...


Yes, seriously. I'd take Duke Ellinbgton's music over that of 2/3rds of that list any day of the week.

John Cage? Seriously?


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I'd take Duke Ellinbgton's music over that of 2/3rds of that list any day of the week.


 Would you name anything to start with for a novice?


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)

Well, here's a bit with my fellow Swede Alice Babs.


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)

He wrote three church concerts for Alice Babs.


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)




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## Faustian (Feb 8, 2015)

Even as far as composers in a similar idiom go, I'd take Gershwin over Ellington by a mile.


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

hpowders said:


> Why is this thread existing under "Classical Music Discussion"?





















I have both CDs.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

Sacred Concerts, ok. Something else? Or thats it, folks?


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)




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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

- nothing classical, pure madness


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)

You say that like it's a bad thing.


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

I can see someone who doesn't like 20c Classical making a case for Duke. He's great, IMO, but "composer" doesn't really get at what he does. Yes, he was good at composition, but he was also a performer and band leader.


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## TradeMark (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm listening to some of his orchestral music right now. It sounds heavily influenced by Debussy. Its fine music, but there are a lot of other 20th century composers I would take over him.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Faustian said:


> Even as far as composers in a similar idiom go, I'd take Gershwin over Ellington by a mile.


I don't think that Gerswhin has ever played jazz in his entire life.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

TradeMark said:


> I'm listening to some of his orchestral music right now. It sounds heavily influenced by Debussy. Its fine music, but there are a lot of other 20th century composers I would take over him.


Do you think that this sounds like Debussy?


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)

How so?


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

tuffy said:


> Another thing to consider is that many of Ellington's greatest works were written or arranged by Billy Strayhorn.


Yes! You can call Ellington great as long as you make him next on the list after Billy Strayhorn.


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## bigshot (Nov 22, 2011)

Ellington was a big part of the greatest artistic achievement of the 20th century- Jazz. So I don't know how you can't say he wasn't one of the greatest composers of the 20th century. Jazz was bigger than modern art, bigger than modern architecture. The only creative endeavor that rivaled it was cinema.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

Rock & Roll was bigger than Jazz. Too absurd to measure architecture against music.


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## MusicFree (Jun 16, 2014)

quack said:


> Rock & Roll was bigger than Jazz. Too absurd to measure architecture against music.


yeah i was going to say...Rock & Roll had a much bigger influence then Jazz


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

bigshot said:


> Jazz was bigger than modern art, bigger than modern architecture.


 Reminds me saying of certain John from England: We're bigger than Jesus.

BTW, I love jazz, and I do not see a point of comparing Duke with Ravel or with Metallica.


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## Sloe (May 9, 2014)

AnotherSpin said:


> Reminds me saying of certain John from England: We're bigger than Jesus.
> 
> BTW, I love jazz, and I do not see a point of comparing Duke with Ravel or with Metallica.


I don´t like jazz that much and I really can´t see how it could be greater than rock. 
Jazz was popular music.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Seriously?
> Ellington over Schnittke, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Strauss, Adams, Cage, Berio, Ligeti, Webern, Berg, Stockhausen, Mahler, Debussy, Reich, Penderecki, Copland, Tavener, Arnold, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...


There's no point in comparing Ellington to the composers of the European tradition. Duke would be the first one to tell you that that tradition was not his inspiration or focus. He was interested in expressing the music of "his people" (his words). The Afro-American musical experience and tradition. And he did it in a highly original, personal, and innovative way. But nevertheless, he was a serious composer who knew how to write great music for a large ensemble. And he had the best musicians in his ensembles for 50 years. He was also a great and prolific songwriter whose songs have stood the test of time for 90 years.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Seriously?
> Ellington over Schnittke, Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Strauss, Adams, Cage, Berio, Ligeti, Webern, Berg, Stockhausen, Mahler, Debussy, Reich, Penderecki, Copland, Tavener, Arnold, Shostakovich, Prokofiev...


If we include for example stochastic music, electronic music, spatial music etc. then DE's composed music equally qualifies in this discussion for his greatness as a fine 20th century composer. Many would also agree that DE has always been more popular than many listed above.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

Sloe said:


> I don´t like jazz that much and I really can´t see how it could be greater than rock.
> Jazz was popular music.


 Compare Eric Dolphy with.. I don't know... Aerosmith. You will see where is pop music here.


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

starthrower said:


> The Afro-American musical experience and tradition. And he did it in a highly original, personal, and innovative way.


 I believe he was more inspiration than anything else. One of the best Miles Davis recordings, Get Up With It has a subtitle - For Duke. Just listen a first track, He Loved Him Madly.
P.S.: BTW, I was never able to compile any significant or representative set of Ellington recordings. He was much more elusive in this sense than Miles, or Coltrane.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Yes, seriously. I'd take Duke Ellinbgton's music over that of 2/3rds of that list any day of the week.
> 
> John Cage? Seriously?


Yes, seriously. He did write more than just 4'33'', you know.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

AnotherSpin said:


> - nothing classical, pure madness


Sounds like a critique of _Le Sacre du printemps_


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

AnotherSpin said:


> Sacred Concerts, ok. Something else? Or thats it, folks?


http://www.talkclassical.com/37453-duke-ellington-recordings-looking.html


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## ComposerOfAvantGarde (Dec 2, 2011)

I prefer Charles Mingus


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## Ukko (Jun 4, 2010)

How does Ellington get into a "Classical Music Discussion"?


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## Guest (May 17, 2015)

MoonlightSonata said:


> Yes, seriously. He did write more than just 4'33'', you know.


Careful with assumptions. Most people here _don't_ seem to know that.

Anyway, I've heard from several places that Duke Ellington did compose a few things, besides just being a player of pop music. So that would make him eligible for the title. But I'd need to hear some of his classical oeuvre before determining just how viable a candidate he is. His work with jazz, cabaret, etc is ineligible in a discussion of "greatest composer", of course.

Can someone link us to a performance of one of these works?


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

nathanb said:


> Anyway, I've heard from several places that Duke Ellington did compose a few things, besides just being a player of pop music. So that would make him eligible for the title. But I'd need to hear some of his classical oeuvre before determining just how viable a candidate he is.


Not sure if I understand what you're asking.

1. He composed way more than a few things.
2. He was of course not just a player of pop.
3. He doesn't really have a Classical oeuvre. He's a Jazz guy.

ADD: In his Vintage Guide to Classical Music, Jan Swafford includes a brief section on Ellington (he gets more space than Puccini, Vaughan Williams or Nielsen). He doesn't come out and say Ellington is Classical, though.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

ComposerOfAvantGarde said:


> I prefer Charles Mingus


Mingus was a huge Ellington fan. You can hear it in his music.


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## tdc (Jan 17, 2011)

Ellington was a master of miniatures. The stuff he composed was excellent and very sophisticated harmonically, but its not really the kind of music you can compare straight up with classical.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

AnotherSpin said:


> I believe he was more inspiration than anything else. One of the best Miles Davis recordings, Get Up With It has a subtitle - For Duke. Just listen a first track, He Loved Him Madly.
> P.S.: BTW, I was never able to compile any significant or representative set of Ellington recordings. He was much more elusive in this sense than Miles, or Coltrane.


I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here?


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## AnotherSpin (Apr 9, 2015)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> Sounds like a critique of _Le Sacre du printemps_


 I believe this performance was a highlight not only for Ellington, but for a jazz as a whole. Stravinsky - I was never able to dig inside here.


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## Guest (May 17, 2015)

GreenMamba said:


> 1. He composed way more than a few things.


To avoid confusion, we typically use words like "composed" and "composer" in reference to art music. It's a silly way to differentiate, but yes, if Duke Ellington only wrote jazz, he would not be any more eligible for "greatest composer" than Kurt Cobain.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

nathanb said:


> To avoid confusion, we typically use words like "composed" and "composer" in reference to art music. It's a silly way to differentiate, but yes, if Duke Ellington only wrote jazz, he would not be any more eligible for "greatest composer" than Kurt Cobain.


Those are some highly condescending remarks. "Jazz" for lack of a better term has been recognized as serious music for decades.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

The word "author" was often used for "composer" in the old days, at least in German. So far as I'm concerned both Ellington and Cobain are welcome to take their chances in the Great Composer Sweepstakes. Music is music.


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## Guest (May 17, 2015)

starthrower said:


> Those are some highly condescending remarks. "Jazz" for lack of a better term has been recognized as serious music for decades.


I don't see how it's condescending. Did you accidentally read my post in the tone of one who dislikes either jazz or rock?


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

tdc said:


> Ellington was a master of miniatures. The stuff he composed was excellent and very sophisticated harmonically, but its not really the kind of music you can compare straight up with classical.


Exactly! Here's an excerpt from an interesting article:

"To attempt to elevate the status of the jazz musician by forcing the level of his best work into comparisons with classical music," he wrote in 1944, "is to deny him his rightful share of originality." This statement is as true today as it was a half-century ago. There is nothing to be learned by directly comparing a three-minute blues like Ellington's "Ko-Ko" with a 45-minute symphony by Copland. The composer of the former was incapable of composing the latter (and vice versa), yet both were masters of American music, each in his own way. https://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/overpraising-duke-ellington/


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

nathanb said:


> I don't see how it's condescending. Did you accidentally read my post in the tone of one who dislikes either jazz or rock?


No. But Ellington was still a composer, even if he didn't write what you consider "art music."


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## GreenMamba (Oct 14, 2012)

Is Black, Brown and Beige art music? It certainly seems a lot closer to a Classical symphony than to a rock song.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

nathanb said:


> Careful with assumptions. Most people here _don't_ seem to know that.
> 
> Anyway, I've heard from several places that Duke Ellington did compose a few things, besides just being a player of pop music. So that would make him eligible for the title. But I'd need to hear some of his classical oeuvre before determining just how viable a candidate he is. His work with jazz, cabaret, etc is ineligible in a discussion of "greatest composer", of course.
> 
> Can someone link us to a performance of one of these works?


I onestly don't care about threads like this one that pretend to discuss in terms of "the single greatest composer of the century", but Duke Ellington was without a doubt a great composer (even if personally tend to prefer Strayhorn). He wasn't a classical composer, but a great composer nonetheless, and his greatest achievements are as a jazz musician. It would be preposterous to evaluate him just considering his music where there isn't improvisation (like Diminuendo and crescendo in blue or Night Creature), a minimal part of his huge production.
Many have remarked the fact the fact that he was a miniaturist, but still in that form he produced great original music in a complete different way from what you would find in the work of a european musician, a music that was produced using the strenght of his improvisors.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Ellington's not even in my top 10 jazz composers, so I'm gonna say no without even reaching the question of whether it should be called classical.

To me the way to answer to the question "Is it classical music?" is always: "Did the composer consider him- or herself to be writing classical music?"

In Ellington's case I believe the answer is no - though I'm not an expert on him, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

isorhythm said:


> Ellington's not even in my top 10 jazz composers, so I'm gonna say no without even reaching the question of whether it should be called classical.


You might agree that it's unfortunate that Wynton Marsalis ended up being the first Jazz artist to get the Pulitzer over Duke Ellington, though...


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Mahlerian said:


> You might agree that it's unfortunate that Wynton Marsalis ended up being the first Jazz artist to get the Pulitzer over Duke Ellington, though...


Yes, I think we can all regret that.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

isorhythm said:


> Ellington's not even in my top 10 jazz composers, so I'm gonna say no without even reaching the question of whether it should be called classical.
> 
> To me the way to answer to the question "Is it classical music?" is always: "Did the composer consider him- or herself to be writing classical music?"


the question is more: can only a classical composer be considered a composer?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

norman bates said:


> the question is more: can only a classical composer be considered a composer?


No, but I don't think you can meaningfully compare all composers with each other. There have to be some common methods and aims, which is why we generally keep comparisons within genres. You can't compare Ellington with Stockhausen in any useful way. Actually I'd say you can't compare Reich with Stockhausen either. "Classical music" became too fragmented in the 20th century to be able to speak of "greatest composers" anymore, let alone trying to mix other genres in there.

Pop music composers are also composers.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

nathanb- To avoid confusion, we typically use words like "composed" and "composer" in reference to art music. It's a silly way to differentiate, but yes, if Duke Ellington only wrote jazz, he would not be any more eligible for "greatest composer" than Kurt Cobain.

starthrower- Those are some highly condescending remarks. "Jazz" for lack of a better term has been recognized as serious music for decades.

One thing that I have noticed over the years on TC is just how musically close-minded many of the champions of Modern/Contemporary music are when it comes to music outside of their idea of of what qualifies as "serious music".


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One thing that I have noticed over the years on TC is just how musically close-minded many of the champions of Modern/Contemporary music are when it comes to music outside of their idea of of what qualifies as "serious music".


Uuh, HELLO! I'm right here!

Kinda rude to talk so ill of someone when they're right in front of you


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## SimonNZ (Jul 12, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One thing that I have noticed over the years on TC is just how musically close-minded many of the champions of Modern/Contemporary music are when it comes to music outside of their idea of of what qualifies as "serious music".


I haven't noticed this at all.

Could you provide more a little more to back that up? Examples with names removed, perhaps?


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

This is a classical music forum that has been around for years.

I have sympathy for "newbies" that raise issues that have been addressed many times before in other threads.

I have reviewed the above and I have seen nothing new.

Reminder: The majority of the members have very diverse tastes and appreciate the works of Ellington/Stayhorn as well as Schoenberg or whatever. For most of us we listen to music that pleases us. Whether or not it is the greatest of whatever is meaningless.

Another reminder: Schoenberg and Gershwin were close friends.

Note: I have performed with classical orchestras that had concerts devoted to the music of Ellington.


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## Guest (May 17, 2015)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One thing that I have noticed over the years on TC is just how musically close-minded many of the champions of Modern/Contemporary music are when it comes to music outside of their idea of of what qualifies as "serious music".


I never denied that jazz can be serious music. Nor did I ever deny liking jazz.

Did someone else in this thread do that? Links would be helpful.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> One thing that I have noticed over the years on TC is just how musically close-minded many of the champions of Modern/Contemporary music are when it comes to music outside of their idea of of what qualifies as "serious music".




I am really getting tired of accusations like this. 

The vast majority of the musicians that I play with appreciate music from all eras and genres.

The next concert with the McLean Symphony, a group I play with, is devoted to jazz. One of the works we will be performing is derived from the music of Ellington. Over the years we have performed works by Ellington and arrangements for orchestra of his music.

Of course I am always running into musicians who thumb their noses at Ellington. Like here they are a very vocal minority. If they get too noisy the sections leader will pull them aside for a little pep talk like, "If you don't like the music we can find a replacement."


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> nathanb- To avoid confusion, we typically use words like "composed" and "composer" in reference to art music. It's a silly way to differentiate, but yes, if Duke Ellington only wrote jazz, he would not be any more eligible for "greatest composer" than Kurt Cobain.
> 
> starthrower- Those are some highly condescending remarks. "Jazz" for lack of a better term has been recognized as serious music for decades.
> 
> *One thing that I have noticed over the years on TC is just how musically close-minded many of the champions of Modern/Contemporary music are when it comes to music outside of their idea of of what qualifies as "serious music".*


I've noticed that too, especially with how openly misesteemed Shostakovich and RVW are.

I find these 'criticisms' underwhelming at best.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

I can't stand the phrase "art music" (no offense intended to user ArtMusic, of course).


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Ellington was a talented composer — nothing more, nothing less.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

isorhythm said:


> I can't stand the phrase "art music" (no offense intended to user ArtMusic, of course).


Yeah, it sounds rather snooty. iso, I'd like to get a thread going in the non-classical section on your top 10 jazz composers.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Morimur said:


> Ellington was a talented composer - nothing more, nothing less.


Actually, he was quite a bit more than just a talented composer. The Duke was a very fine pianist, and one of the great bandleaders of all time.


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

starthrower said:


> Actually, he was quite a bit more than just a talented composer. The Duke was a very fine pianist, and one of the great bandleaders of all time.


In jazz I prefer Mingus and Armstrong.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Morimur said:


> In jazz I prefer Mingus and Armstrong.


I like 'em all. Ellington was Mingus's biggest influence And the Ellington/Armstrong album is a favorite. I believe Mingus was the only musician Duke ever fired. Not because of his playing, but his temper and unruly personality. You know that lump on Eric Dolphy's forehead that is very visible in photos? I read it was the result of being punched by Mingus.


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## Albert7 (Nov 16, 2014)

I really think that Ellington was one of the few composers who could bridge both classical and jazz worlds.

Much props to his main man Billy Strayhorn too. Word.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I've noticed that too, especially with how openly misesteemed Shostakovich and RVW are.
> 
> I find these 'criticisms' underwhelming at best.


Except for a few members here, I have never run into musicians who think that Shostakovich and RVW are bad.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Albert7 said:


> I really think that Ellington was one of the few composers who could bridge both classical and jazz worlds.


Nah, Duke was not a classical guy. And he didn't have the training or skills to compose orchestral music. Others had more of an interest, including Gunther Schuller, Gil Evans, and Chick Corea.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> Except for a few members here, I have never run into musicians who think that Shostakovich and RVW are bad.


Oh I have- and by a very musically-literate person at that.

This person, who I actually like, said that most of Shostakovich's music was "garbage". . . or was it "trash?"- well it was one or the other.


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## Guest (May 18, 2015)

arpeggio said:


> Except for a few members here, I have never run into musicians who think that Shostakovich and RVW are bad.


Can you name names?


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm not sure Ellington belongs in the same category as a Carter, Boulez, or Schoenberg, but then many would say the same of my favourite composer, Frank Zappa - and by the way, if we're talking greatest 20th century composer regardless of tradition and/or genre, there's my answer. But these categories, genre more so than tradition, are quite arbitrary: why this person should be one thing and that person another despite them arguably having more in common than not, I do not know, and yet I have said that it is possibly true of Ellington, that he is not a composer of classical music while someone else is. By what authority do I speak on this issue? And is what I say a matter of prejudice, a preference based on experience, a preference based on education, or an objective fact?

Two principle questions we might ask ourselves:

What makes Gershwin's _An American in Paris_ classical and Ellington's _The Golden Broom and the Green Apple_ not?

What makes something "great" and some other thing not?

These are valuable questions, but they may ultimately be unanswerable. An entirely more important question, perhaps, is why do we care what is and what is not classical music? Is it a personal thing, that every one of us strives to ensure our favourites are sitting on top, cloistered away from the rest of music in a special category, so that we might appear to be objectively correct and superior in our tastes? I don't know the answer, but I do know that the illusion of rightness is a powerful thing.


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

nathanb said:


> Can you name names?


Really. After all of these years is it necessary for me to go find all of the threads and posts accusing Shostakovich of being a whatever? I am pretty sure we can find at least one member who thinks RVW is bad.


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## Guest (May 18, 2015)

arpeggio said:


> Really. After all of these years is it necessary for me to go find all of the threads and posts accusing Shostakovich of being a whatever? I am pretty sure we can find at least one member who thinks RVW is bad.


Well, I like em both. Doesn't sound like a lot of people dislike them compared to half the composers on my iPod...


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## arpeggio (Oct 4, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Oh I have- and by a very musically-literate person at that.
> 
> This person, who I actually like, said that most of Shostakovich's music was "garbage". . . or was it "trash?"- well it was one or the other.


I know a few supposedly musical literate individuals here in this forum who think Shostakovich is a weak composer.

I am talking about musicians that I play with outside of this forum. If you personally know of one experienced orchestral musician who dislikes Shostakovich you know one more that I do. I remember the one time I performed the Shostakovich _Fifth_. Not a single member of the orchestra complained about it.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

Crudblud said:


> What makes Gershwin's _An American in Paris_ classical and Ellington's _The Golden Broom and the Green Apple_ not?
> 
> What makes something "great" and some other thing not?


Classical or not being besides the point, just judging by my own ears the Gershwin score is superior. The Ellington piece sounds like his jazz band with some strings tacked on. And rhythmically, it's very mundane and monotonous. But I find a piece such as Zappa's Bogus Pomp more interesting than either the Gershwin or Ellington scores.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

arpeggio said:


> I know a few supposedly musical literate individuals here in this forum who think Shostakovich is a weak composer.
> 
> I am talking about musicians that I play with outside of this forum. If you personally know of one experienced orchestral musician who dislikes Shostakovich you know one more that I do. I remember the one time I performed the Shostakovich _Fifth_. Not a single member of the orchestra complained about it.


I'm sure there's all sorts of musicians who like as well as ones who dislike Shostakovich. . . I'm not sure I understand where you're going with this.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

starthrower said:


> Classical or not being besides the point, just judging by my own ears the Gershwin score is superior. The Ellington piece sounds like his jazz band with some strings tacked on. And rhythmically, it's very mundane and monotonous.


I agree with you. Not only do I prefer the Gershwin, I think it is written with a better understanding of the orchestra and contains more interesting material and applications thereof, and not having its foundations in a handful of stock drum patterns which play incessantly throughout the piece is a positive as well. Yes, by my taste, Gershwin certainly comes out on top, but my taste is my taste, there is nothing objective in it, and an expression of taste is at any given time a preference prefaced with an "I think." If we are to make statements of broad scope such as "this is the greatest <thing>" or "this is part of <category>" then I don't see how taste can come into it.

Furthermore, I disagree that "classical or not" is beside the point, indeed it seems to _be_ the point, if not of the OP directly then of its implications and certainly of the thread at large.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> I agree with you. Not only do I prefer the Gershwin, I think it is written with a better understanding of the orchestra and contains more interesting material and applications thereof, and not having its foundations in a handful of stock drum patterns which play incessantly throughout the piece is a positive as well. Yes, by my taste, Gershwin certainly comes out on top, but my taste is my taste, there is nothing objective in it, and an expression of taste is at any given time a preference prefaced with an "I think." If we are to make statements of broad scope such as "this is the greatest <thing>" or "this is part of <category>" then I don't see how taste can come into it.
> 
> Furthermore, I disagree that "classical or not" is beside the point, indeed it seems to _be_ the point, if not of the OP directly then of its implications and certainly of the thread at large.


Wasn't Gershwin's _Rhapsody _orchestrated by Ferde Grofe?

All the same, I love the Gershwin more too incidentally.


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## KenOC (Mar 7, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Wasn't Gershwin's _Rhapsody _orchestrated by Ferde Grofe?


Believe so. However, the two had a falling out when Grofe evidently made some public claims that he, not Gershwin, had composed the piece. Don't know if they ever sorted this out, but Grofe was a pallbearer at Gershwin's funeral.


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## Crudblud (Dec 29, 2011)

Marschallin Blair said:


> Wasn't Gershwin's _Rhapsody _orchestrated by Ferde Grofe?


Yes, it was originally written for jazz band and piano, but we are talking about _An American in Paris_, which Gershwin composed and orchestrated himself.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Crudblud said:


> Yes, it was originally written for jazz band and piano, but we are talking about _An American in Paris_, which Gershwin composed and orchestrated himself.


Sorry about that, Crudblud. _;D_


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Why is it that a lot of the jazz guys can't arrange their own work?


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

starthrower said:


> Yeah, it sounds rather snooty. iso, I'd like to get a thread going in the non-classical section on your top 10 jazz composers.


I don't feel like I know enough about jazz for my personal favorites to carry much weight, but if you started a thread like that I'd try to contribute.


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## tuffy (Apr 19, 2015)

It's all music (and that aint too bad).


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

Morimur said:


> Why is it that a lot of the jazz guys can't arrange their own work?


I don't know who are you considering, but I guess that the fact that many times in jazz you have a vast presence of arrangers is due to necessity: they had bands and orchestras with no fixed dimension, and so probably they had and have the necessity to change the music according to the musician they had in any situation. And being jazz a music of improvisation, tunes were constantly transformed in every aspect to the point that many famous tunes are actually based on previous pieces.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

starthrower said:


> There's no point in comparing Ellington to the composers of the European tradition. Duke would be the first one to tell you that that tradition was not his inspiration or focus. He was interested in expressing the music of "his people" (his words). The Afro-American musical experience and tradition. And he did it in a highly original, personal, and innovative way. But nevertheless, he was a serious composer who knew how to write great music for a large ensemble. And he had the best musicians in his ensembles for 50 years. He was also a great and prolific songwriter whose songs have stood the test of time for 90 years.


I think starthrower nails it here. It's like comparing apples with oranges.

What Ellington did was FAR different that what a "typical composer" (in the Western classical tradition) does. His roles as a bandleader, a performer, and a pianist -- along with his composing and arranging -- are all very significant components of his legacy. And this combination of elements is TRULY unique -- both _within_ the world of jazz _and_ outside of it.

Of course, the compositions that Ellington has handed down to us is one of his greatest gifts to the world. But, I would argue that any performance of Ellington's music by anyone other than Ellington and his band is "less fully realized" than if it were performed by the man himself. With someone like Ellington, the line between performer and composer is VERY, VERY blurry. Of course, this is not true with classical composers.

That's why I think it _diminishes_ Ellington's legacy when one thinks of him solely as a composer.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I think starthrower nails it here. It's like comparing apples with oranges.

But then what makes it fine to speak of Varese, Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc... within the tradition of "classical music"... when many would find that they have less in common with Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Offenbach, etc... than do Ellington, Miles Davis, etc...?


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> But then what makes it fine to speak of Varese, Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc... within the tradition of "classical music"... when many would find that they have less in common with Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Offenbach, etc... than do Ellington, Miles Davis, etc...?


Varese, Xenakis, and Stockhausen are part of the classical tradition, while Ellington and Miles Davis are part of a separate tradition. Incidentally, it was Miles Davis who listened eagerly to Stockhausen's music and was interested in applying what he heard to his own work.


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## JACE (Jul 18, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Varese, Xenakis, and Stockhausen are part of the classical tradition, while Ellington and Miles Davis are part of a separate tradition. Incidentally, it was Miles Davis who listened eagerly to Stockhausen's music and was interested in applying what he heard to his own work.


I agree.

Furthermore, Varese, Xenakis, and Stockhausen wrote music with the understanding & expectation that _other musicians_ would perform their compositions. This is also true of Tin Pan Alley writers like Porter, Gershwin, Arlen, et al.

Ellington, on the other hand, wrote music _specifically for the musicians_ who were a part of his band (and for himself!). That's one reason why he kept the band together continuously, even during periods when it wasn't profitable from a financial point of view: He wanted to hear his music as he wrote it. And only _his band_ could offer him that possibility.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> Varese, Xenakis, and Stockhausen are part of the classical tradition, while Ellington and Miles Davis are part of a separate tradition. ...


That's an irrelevant point in my opinion, because it is the *music itself* that composers write that shall be the sole base for assessment, not their traditional base or even training.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

ArtMusic said:


> That's an irrelevant point in my opinion, because it is the *music itself* that composers write that shall be the sole base for assessment, not their traditional base or even training.


It can't be irrelevant, because it is *the music itself* which creates the tradition. Ludovico Einaudi was trained by classical composer Luciano Berio, whose music is indisputably classical, while Einaudi's is really on the fringe of pop,


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

Mahlerian said:


> It can't be irrelevant, because it is *the music itself* which creates the tradition. Ludovico Einaudi was trained by classical composer Luciano Berio, whose music is indisputably classical, while Einaudi's is really on the fringe of pop,


DE was composing music, of different heritage and development to Wagner. Was his music any less than Xenakis' stochastic music?

Cherry picking comes to my mind when one decides what is classical or not.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

And who gets to pick the cherries?


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## violadude (May 2, 2011)

ArtMusic said:


> DE was composing music, of different heritage and development to Wagner. Was his music any less than Xenakis' stochastic music?
> 
> Cherry picking comes to my mind when one decides what is classical or not.


No one said DE's music was less than anything, just that it's primarily not Classical.


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## quack (Oct 13, 2011)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And who gets to pick the cherries?


Underpaid immigrants.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

quack said:


> Underpaid immigrants.


. . . who are free to take all of those well paying jobs in Mexico.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

violadude said:


> No one said DE's music was less than anything, just that it's primarily not Classical.


_Mutatis mutandis_ for Stockhausen.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Mutatis mutandis_ for Stockhausen.


No, this doesn't work, sorry.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> No, this doesn't work, sorry.


I'm utterly convinced.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

Marschallin Blair said:


> I'm utterly convinced.


I think if you apply yourself you will understand why Stockhausen shares a tradition with Palestrina, Beethoven and Wagner, while Ellington does not share this tradition. This is not an opinion about music but an historical fact.


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## Mahlerian (Nov 27, 2012)

Marschallin Blair said:


> _Mutatis mutandis_ for Stockhausen.


Wait, so Stockhausen was writing jazz all those years? I don't know how I never figured it out! Of course, there was the Miles Davis influence...and the fact that his son Markus plays jazz trumpet...well, you've certainly opened my eyes.


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

isorhythm said:


> I think if you apply yourself you will understand why Stockhausen shares a tradition with Palestrina, Beethoven and Wagner, while Ellington does not share this tradition. This is not an opinion about music but an historical fact.


I was referencing Stockhausen and not Ellington.

http://www.talkclassical.com/38131-duke-ellington-greatest-composer-8.html#post881401


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## Marschallin Blair (Jan 23, 2014)

Mahlerian said:


> Wait, so Stockhausen was writing jazz all those years? I don't know how I never figured it out! Of course, there was the Miles Davis influence...and the fact that his son Markus plays jazz trumpet...well, you've certainly opened my eyes.


No, Stockhausen was writing cloud-cuckoo land stuff.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> And who gets to pick the cherries?


Those who consider DE's music is not classical while stochastic music, electroacoustic music, spatial music, experimental music etc are. And of course vice versa. Film music is another example, the great John Williams.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> Those who consider DE's music is not classical while stochastic music, electroacoustic music, spatial music, experimental music etc are. And of course vice versa.


ArtMusic, do you think "classical" is a synonym for "good"? I'm starting to think that is a source of some confusion here.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> ArtMusic, do you think "classical" is a synonym for "good"? I'm starting to think that is a source of some confusion here.


*Composed music* are terms I prefer to use, which includes film music.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> *Composed music* are terms I prefer to use, which includes film music.


And video game music, and electronic dance music, for that matter - but that's a broader category than classical.

I think it's disrespectful to jazz to try to lump it in with classical music, personally. It's a separate, autonomous tradition and should be respected as such.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> And video game music, and electronic dance music, for that matter - but that's a broader category than classical.
> 
> I think it's disrespectful to jazz to try to lump it in with classical music, personally. It's a separate, autonomous tradition and should be respected as such.


Jazz is jazz, it is very distinct. I am referring to Duke Ellington specifically, who composed music and that can be included in classical composed music. DE also did a lot of pure improvising in the great jazz tradition. This type of improvisation is clearly rooted in jazz.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> Jazz is jazz, it is very distinct. I am referring to Duke Ellington specifically, who composed music and that can be included in classical composed music. DE also did a lot of pure improvising in the great jazz tradition. This type of improvisation is clearly rooted in jazz.


Fair enough. For me the question would still be whether Ellington himself considered it classical. For all I know he may have, for some works. But surely all his most significant work is squarely in the jazz tradition.


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## norman bates (Aug 18, 2010)

isorhythm said:


> Fair enough. For me the question would still be whether Ellington himself considered it classical. For all I know he may have, for some works. But surely all his most significant work is squarely in the jazz tradition.


with some exception: Come sunday to me it's definitely one of his masterpieces (and one of the great vocal pieces of the century in my opinion) and I see as a equivalent of the four last songs of Strauss or Barber's Knoxville or certain vocal pieces of Mahler, and I don't know if it could be considered jazz.


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## StlukesguildOhio (Dec 25, 2006)

I think if you apply yourself you will understand why Stockhausen shares a tradition with Palestrina, Beethoven and Wagner, while Ellington does not share this tradition. This is not an opinion about music but an historical fact.

Because the opinions of the champions of Modernism are always fact, don't you know?

The so-called tradition of Western "classical music" embraces everything from Byzantine chant, Arab-Andalusian music, Palestrina, the songs of Dowland, Monteverdi's madrigals, Gesualdo, the operas of Handel, Mozart, Verdi & Wagner as well as the operettas of Offenbach, Strauss Jr., Gilbert & Sullivan & Lehar, Bach's cantatas, the lieder of Schumann and Schubert, the mélodie of Faure, Hahn, Debussy and Poulenc, the jazz-based works of Gershwin, Nikolai Kasputin, Kurt Weill, and William Bolcom, the experimental and electronic music of Busoni, Edgard Varèse , Xenakis, Stockhausen, etc... Piazzolla's tangos, the latin-American works of Revueltas, Ginastera, etc... the Minimalist of Glass, Adamas, Reich, Gorecki, Part, etc... And then there are the composers and works of "classical music influenced by Rock/Pop: William Bolcom's _Songs of Innocence and of Experience_, Tristan Murail's _Vampyr_, Michael Daugherty's _Dead Elvis_, any number of works by Osvaldo Golijov, Glass' Low Symphony, etc... It seems to me that the tradition of what is deemed "classical music" is rather broad and open to a vast range of styles, forms, and genre.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

StlukesguildOhio said:


> I think if you apply yourself you will understand why Stockhausen shares a tradition with Palestrina, Beethoven and Wagner, while Ellington does not share this tradition. This is not an opinion about music but an historical fact.
> 
> Because the opinions of the champions of Modernism are always fact, don't you know?


You missed my point completely.

I am not saying anything about the characteristics or merit of any of the music. Nothing. OK?


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## Morimur (Jan 23, 2014)

Come now, we all know Stravinsky is considered the greatest of the 20th century. Personally I think Bartók, Xenakis, Ligeti and Lutosławski have an equal claim to the mantle, but Ellington? Not even close.


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## ArtMusic (Jan 5, 2013)

isorhythm said:


> Fair enough. For me the question would still be whether Ellington himself considered it classical. For all I know he may have, for some works. But surely all his most significant work is squarely in the jazz tradition.


See post #126 by StlukesguildOhio.


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## isorhythm (Jan 2, 2015)

ArtMusic said:


> See post #126 by StlukesguildOhio.


That post has no bearing on what I said.


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## starthrower (Dec 11, 2010)

violadude said:


> No one said DE's music was less than anything, just that it's primarily not Classical.


Yes. And as was pointed out early on in this thread, Duke Ellington himself did not consider his music part of the European classical tradition. You can read his responses to critics of the time trying to compare him to Debussy or whoever. It's all in The Duke Ellington Reader, a 500 page compilation of interviews, essays, and articles spanning 50 + years.


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