# 40 or 41?



## Bridgetower (May 9, 2013)

*Mozart's 40th and 41st symphonies.* I love both of them, mostly because they were the first two pieces of classical music that I was consciously exposed to. Yet I can't seem to figure out which one I like the most. It used to be 40 but recently I've had more of a liking for 41. I don't know, what do you guys think? If you had to pick one, which would it be and why? No need for a poll here; just feel free to share.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

There was a substantial poll on this, here:

http://www.talkclassical.com/22077-mozart-symphony-40-vs.html

I favour the G minor myself.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Welcome Bridgetower:

41, because the finale of 40 is kind of dumb.


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## bharbeke (Mar 4, 2013)

40 has the better beginning, and 41 has the better ending. The best answer is to make them a double feature.


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## Manxfeeder (Oct 19, 2010)

bharbeke said:


> 40 has the better beginning, and 41 has the better ending.


Yep. But I prefer 40 for its beginning. It illustrates Colin Davis' observation that "Mozart is the expert in creating a very quiet kind of insecurity." Or as Charles Rosen noted, it's like a woman who enters the room, and she's so beautiful that you don't notice how sad she is.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> ... the finale of 40 is kind of dumb.


Why ?


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## nightscape (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm a much bigger fan of 41.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

Skilmarilion said:


> Why ?


[did I say that finale of 40 was dumb?"]: The principal theme sounds like mindless nattering to me. Very subjective judgment, obviously.

Also, the finale of 40 doesn't balance the weight of the earlier movements, which is unsurprising, standard for the style, and wouldn't be worth mentioning - except for the fact that the finale of 41 does.


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## MoonlightSonata (Mar 29, 2014)

I prefer #40.

.......


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## Becca (Feb 5, 2015)

I have it on excellent authority that the correct answer is ... 42


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Forty gives me a migraine. I find it depressing. I'll take 41 every time and I'll take any of the Haydn London Symphonies over #41.


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm forced to say 41 just because of the finale. Actually neither one is among my favorite symphonies; I like the first movement of 40 and the finale of 41 and could live without all the other movements. I like the first movement of 38 (the "Prague") better than anything in the rest of Mozart's symphonies, most of which, except for the aforementioned movements, I could live without, especially the minuets, which, if I've heard one, I've heard them all, and most of the slow movements, which bore me. 

I don't care if Amadeus means "loved by God." :angel: When it comes to symphonies, I'll take Haydn's devilry. :devil:


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Out of those two, I'd pick #41 since I listen to the entirety of it(rather than selecting favorite movements) compared to number 40, though I enjoy 38 and 39 even more. I think the last four symphonies are, in a way, the synthesis of everything Mozart had been learning in orchestration from the operas, serenades, and concertos he'd been composing previously. There's very advanced harmonic writing that foreshadow later Romantic era symphonies, the opening of the 39th, for example is strikingly dissonant and includes the same inverted 7th chord--though it's resolved soon afterwards--that Beethoven would use for more dramatic effect in the first movement of the Eroica symphony. The last 4 were still performed frequently in Europe in the 19th century when public opinion of high classical music was very low;testament to their quality. The subtlety, control, and way Mozart harmonizes each instrument with phrases idiomatic to the instruments playing them, as opposed to being utilitarian and convenient for development; also the way he collapses parts of instrumental groups to compete with the rest of the orchestra when necessary rather than ' beefing up' the sound by adding more of the same instrument as with some Romantic symphonists. Though more experienced members, who possibly know everything about these symphonies and more, may find them boring or dismiss them with the same glib utterances; that, of course is more reflective of them and perhaps their aesthetic preferences are found elsewhere; or...they forgot to ask Santa for that new set of hearing aids.


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## Triplets (Sep 4, 2014)

They are very different pieces. Vive la difference, and enjoy them both!


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## Bevo (Feb 22, 2015)

I think it depends on what angle you're viewing it. Just out of pure entertainment I think the 40th has VERY slight edge. But in terms of which is a better composition I believe the 41st is perhaps the best composition Mozart wrote. That final movement blows me away every time. To think that someone could have not only mentally thought something like that out, but then put it on paper for the world to hear is astonishing. Don't get me wrong, I love both of the outer movements for both symphonies loads, but overall I'd have to say the 41st is my favorite. I also like the Menuetto in the 41st. It almost sounds like it be marked as a slow vivace type of movement. I just find it very playful. Anyways, just my two cents.


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## EdwardBast (Nov 25, 2013)

trazom said:


> Out of those two, I'd pick #41 since I listen to the entirety of it(rather than selecting favorite movements) compared to number 40, though I enjoy 38 and 39 even more.


Glad you said this! I prefer 39 among the late ones and would have included it in the poll.


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## Skilmarilion (Apr 6, 2013)

EdwardBast said:


> [did I say that finale of 40 was dumb?"]: The principal theme sounds like mindless nattering to me. Very subjective judgment, obviously.
> 
> Also, the finale of 40 doesn't balance the weight of the earlier movements, which is unsurprising, standard for the style, and wouldn't be worth mentioning - except for the fact that the finale of 41 does.


Fair enough.

I find the 3rd movement of the 41st rather mundane, nearly annoying.

As you say, subjective judgement as ever.


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## Vesteralen (Jul 14, 2011)

I prefer the 39th to either of these (as well).

If I had to choose between 40 & 41, I'd take the 40th. I have never liked 41, except for possibly the 3rd movement. There's no doubt above the quality of the composition, but on an emotional level I find it kind of....obvious...for lack of a better word.


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## FrankF (Jan 19, 2015)

I love them both. Can I say it depends on the day?

40 for me is lighter hearted and well spirited and I LOVE it - all movements. 41 for me is deeper and more mature and I LOVE it - all movements.

I am not a musician, cannot read music but really don't care... I LOVE classical music and have tons of it.

Even as a lay person I can hear clearly in the final movement of 41 that something incredibly profound for the time was happening and something big was coming. Maybe only Mozart could have pulled that off without even realizing he was pulling it off.

But I still love both 40 and 41 equally.


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## DeepR (Apr 13, 2012)

I'd mention Mozart as a favorite composer if he had only composed the final movement of 41.


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## mmsbls (Mar 6, 2011)

Mozart's 40th and 41st symphonies are two of my favorite musical works. I find them both stunningly beautiful. I'm always a bit surprised that some say Mozart was not really a good symphonist. Anyway, I might put 41 just a very slight bit ahead of 40.


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## padraic (Feb 26, 2015)

Hmm. I think I like the whole of 40 better, but the finale of 41 is just so spectacular.


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## Saintbert (Mar 12, 2015)

I've always loved the finale (and the rest) of the 40th. Maybe not as the greatest ending to a piece but as a perfect prelude to listening to the whole thing all over again! Mozart always does wonderful things with G minor.


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Neither. Haydn's 102.


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## trazom (Apr 13, 2009)

Skilmarilion said:


> I find the 3rd movement of the 41st rather mundane, nearly annoying.
> 
> As you say, subjective judgement as ever.


I find the sparse imitative texture, the extent of the chromaticism throughout the piece, especially the descending chromatic progression in the woodwinds that lead back to the main theme anything but 'mundane.' 



hpowders said:


> Neither. Haydn's 102.


 You can still prefer Haydn's symphonies while actually answering the Op's question, ya know.


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

Guys, the 40th is spectacular.

Nothing is so claustrophobically depressing and tightly argued. It's like getting your head chopped off in 25 minutes. Nothing beats the experience of the 40th.

The beautifully argued first movement, where fragments of the famous initial theme are tossed between the winds and strings with an incredible sense of urgency. The soft dissonances and deliberate rhythms of the highly unique second movement, a truly harmonically adventures tour de force. The cold, militaristic violence of the third moment, contrasted with the G major trio (which happens to be the only time in the symphony where it reaches the tonic major). And the ferocious finale, my God! I love the descending basline in the second theme of the finale: it screams "countdown to impending doom".


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## SeptimalTritone (Jul 7, 2014)

trazom said:


> I find the sparse imitative texture, the extent of the chromaticism throughout the piece, especially the descending chromatic progression in the woodwinds that lead back to the main theme anything but 'mundane.'


Yes, I love that dissonant part with the descending woodwinds in the middle part of the main minuet.


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## donnie a (Jan 15, 2015)

I favor the 40 by a wide margin, as great a work as 41 is. 40 is that distinctive Mozartian "elegant tragedy" at its finest. And for me, the slow movement is really the heart of the work. Those breathtaking series of modulations are more deeply beautiful than anything else Mozart wrote.


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## Alydon (May 16, 2012)

I believe Mozart's 40th is one of the first symphonic works you come to as an early listener, and true to form it becomes rather hackneyed as a result; but a sad and misguided view. No. 40 is a great and tragic work and deserves a high plateau in the realms of art. 
The 'Jupiter' has one of the most triumphant and glorious openings of any symphony, and never fails to raise the spirits when others fail. The other movements follow on as correctly as they should, and the balance is total in a way only Mozart could form in his hurried genius. 
Choices are pointless in the face of such works - we are not choosing between a transient coffee in our local bar - but an acceptance that each masterwork contains a difference which makes choice pointless. Listen, and whatever you take out of it cherish, and be glad of what you are beholding.


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