# Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach's Sonatas for Keyboard



## Lord Lance

CPE Bach, is for the most part, neglected... even if he is one of the "upper" and better off" "neglected" composers. It's TalkClassical so I expect everyone is familiar with him but I talk of the other 99% public.

Anywho, I came across a gargantuan set of all his Sonatas for Keyboard [on Naxos]. 29 volumes [discs] of a set. That's an impressive amount, prodigious even, of keyboard music. My question is, is it repetitive ever? Did he reach this colossal figure - not by artistic expression - because of commissions? Haydn is notorious for his sometimes lacking or middling works which can be encountered when listening to a survey of all his 104 symphonies. And that makes sense because it is impossible for a person to have that _much _creative outflow, especially when quite a few of them were created for monetary/royal commissioned reasons.

Are they rewarding? Masterpieces of the highest order? For me, I am a staunch support of everything C. P. E. Bach. Having heard his keyboard concertos I know that he is certainly no inferior, or shall we say 0.5 J.S Bach.


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## Mandryka

I think his solo keyboard music is more interesting than Haydn's, at least in the set of sonatas and fantasies called "For Kenner and Liebhaber" The Prussian sonatas are also well worth hearing. I don't know the Naxos set you mean, so I can't really comment, can you give me a link to it. I have heard some sonatas by Hinterhuber which I thought were played in a workmanlike way.


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## joen_cph

The Pletnev DG disc is very rewarding at least, and no doubt a good introduction to these works. 
Hadn´t heard of the Naxos project, which is intriguing; hopefully the recordings are lively and engaged, not too routinely.


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## Bulldog

I've not heard of a set of the keyboard sonatas on Naxos. Perhaps Lord Lance is thinking of the complete set on Hanssler performed on piano (a strange choice for CPE's solo keyboard works).

CPE's solo works are very enjoyable, but "masterpiece" might be stretching too far. 

As for the premise that his solo works are more interesting than Haydn's, I don't understand why Haydn is brought up here at all. However, going with this link, I don't feel that any CPE works rival the more mature Haydn keyboard sonatas.


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## joen_cph

OK, there we are - gets good reviews at least on Amazon 
http://www.amazon.com/C-P-E-Bach-Complete-Works-Piano/dp/B00IGJP0Q6

and indeed here too (Hurwitz!):
http://www.classicstoday.com/review/markovina-aces-cpe-bach-plus-25-greatest-hits-score/


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## Mandryka

Ah, Haensler rather than Naxos. It's exceptional, as long as you don't mind modern piano.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> I've not heard of a set of the keyboard sonatas on Naxos. Perhaps Lord Lance is thinking of the complete set on Hanssler performed on piano (a strange choice for CPE's solo keyboard works).
> 
> CPE's solo works are very enjoyable, but "masterpiece" might be stretching too far.
> 
> As for the premise that his solo works are more interesting than Haydn's, I don't understand why Haydn is brought up here at all. However, going with this link, I don't feel that any CPE works rival the more mature Haydn keyboard sonatas.


Don't you hear a connection? I think there is one, according to music people and historians. Haydn knew about CPEB, was influenced by CPEB. I prefer to hear the Kenner and Liebhaber music to any Haydn keyboard music.

Lubimov also played some CPEB on modern piano.

Nothing else that I've heard by CPEB has been half as interesting as the Kenner and Liebhaber music.


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## ArtMusic

Lord Lance said:


> CPE Bach, is for the most part, neglected... even if he is one of the "upper" and better off" "neglected" composers. It's TalkClassical so I expect everyone is familiar with him but I talk of the other 99% public.
> 
> Anywho, I came across a gargantuan set of all his Sonatas for Keyboard [on Naxos]. 29 volumes [discs] of a set. That's an impressive amount, prodigious even, of keyboard music. My question is, is it repetitive ever? Did he reach this colossal figure - not by artistic expression - because of commissions? Haydn is notorious for his sometimes lacking or middling works which can be encountered when listening to a survey of all his 104 symphonies. And that makes sense because it is impossible for a person to have that _much _creative outflow, especially when quite a few of them were created for monetary/royal commissioned reasons.
> 
> Are they rewarding? Masterpieces of the highest order? For me, I am a staunch support of everything C. P. E. Bach. Having heard his keyboard concertos I know that he is certainly no inferior, or shall we say 0.5 J.S Bach.


Who is the soloist playing the works? Miklós Spányi is another soloist performing the whole set on period clavichord, C P E Bach's preferred instrument.


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## Mandryka

ArtMusic said:


> Who is the soloist playing the works? Miklós Spányi is another soloist performing the whole set on period clavichord, C P E Bach's preferred instrument.


I don't think Spanyi has recorded the Kenner and Liebhaber. What I've heard from Spanyi has been pretty dull.


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## joen_cph

Spanyi did CPE concertante works, overall I liked what I´ve heard of them, but no doubt the alternatives to his recordings present variations as regards the approach.


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## Mandryka

It may just be my response to the music, I haven't managed to enjoy the concertos at all.


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## clavichorder

Mandraka, one has to approach them in much the way one would early and middle Haydn symphonies, with an ear for the craft. There are a few notable exceptions however, of some utterly charming and inspired concertos, and I would cite them specifically were it not so late and I am on an iPad. The symphonies too must not be neglected.

Solo works are fantastic, but I am not always fond of spanyi tempi, being often very slow. Clavichord can be played fast, ya know?


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## Lord Lance

ArtMusic said:


> Who is the soloist playing the works? Miklós Spányi is another soloist performing the whole set on period clavichord, C P E Bach's preferred instrument.


Miklós Spányi recorded only works for keyboard and orchestra, I believe.

_Thanks for the correction, everyone! _

*ALL OF THE KEYBOARD SONATAS ARE PLAYED BY ANA-MARIJA MARKOVINA ON HÄNNSLER CLASSICS*


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## EdwardBast

Of the sonatas by CPE I have heard, I find the Prussians the most interesting. I have the music for about fifty of them but, unfortunately, much of my listening has only been to my own stumbling through them. A complete set on an instrument he might actually have played would be a wonderful thing.

I have recordings of more than half of his keyboard concertos and find these to be a remarkable body of work.


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## tdc

I'll have to listen to some of these, maybe something will click for me. I've never been able to get into CPE Bach's music very much for some reason, but I know many here rate him quite highly. 

Of the composers that were active during that short time between the Baroque and Classical eras the only ones I seem to enjoy thus far are Gluck and Monn.


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## Lord Lance

tdc said:


> I'll have to listen to some of these, maybe something will click for me. I've never been able to get into CPE Bach's music very much for some reason, but I know many here rate him quite highly.
> 
> Of the composers that were active during that short time between the Baroque and Classical eras the only ones I seem to enjoy thus far are Gluck and Monn.


C. P. E. Bach was a genius of the highest order no doubt. But his classical style may not be up your alley. And that's fine but there's no doubting C. P. E.


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## tdc

Lord Lance said:


> C. P. E. Bach was a genius of the highest order no doubt. But his classical style may not be up your alley. And that's fine but there's no doubting C. P. E.


I think CPE was very influential on Haydn and Beethoven, however I am not that interested in any of their music (but admit they were all great composers). In the Classical era I prefer Mozart's aesthetic and in the Romantic era I prefer Brahms.

I gravitate towards music that has its strength in the harmonic language. If there aren't things I find tasteful and interesting going on vertically I'm not that interested in how the musical ideas are developing horizontally. I think of CPE, Haydn and Beethoven as being essentially horizontal composers.

These things are really just personal preference.


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## Mandryka

Harnoncourt has claimed that Mozart's last three symphonies were influenced by a CPEB oratorio. Has anyone explored this idea?

I didn't know that Beethoven was in some sense influenced by CPEB.

As far as "strength in the harmonic language", that's what CPEB has in spades in the Kenner and Liebhaber music.


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## tdc

Mandryka said:


> Harnoncourt has claimed that Mozart's last three symphonies were influenced by a CPEB oratorio. Has anyone explored this idea?
> 
> I didn't know that Beethoven was in some sense influenced by CPEB.
> 
> As far as "strength in the harmonic language", that's what CPEB has in spades in the Kenner and Liebhaber music.


I think "strength in harmonic language" is a pretty subjective thing. The reality is all of these composers are vertical and horizontal. But there are certain composers that I personally find little of interest in their harmonic language (or vertical aspect), Haydn and Beethoven fall into this category for me, and thus far CPE Bach as well.

I'm fairly certain I have read that Beethoven admired CPE Bach - additionally, if Haydn was in fact influenced by CPE Bach (as someone mentioned up thread), then in a sense Beethoven was too, (if indirectly, but again I believe I've read of a direct influence).


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## Bulldog

Mandryka said:


> Don't you hear a connection? I think there is one, according to music people and historians. Haydn knew about CPEB, was influenced by CPEB.


Be that as it may, I've never heard a connection. Put another way, when I listen to CPE I never think of Haydn; I have thought of Scarlatti though.


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## EdwardBast

tdc said:


> I think "strength in harmonic language" is a pretty subjective thing. The reality is all of these composers are vertical and horizontal. But there are certain composers that I personally find little of interest in their harmonic language (or vertical aspect), Haydn and Beethoven fall into this category for me, and thus far CPE Bach as well.
> 
> I'm fairly certain I have read that Beethoven admired CPE Bach - additionally, if Haydn was in fact influenced by CPE Bach (as someone mentioned up thread), then in a sense Beethoven was too, (if indirectly, but again I believe I've read of a direct influence).


Beethoven wrote several letters to publishers asking for scores of CPE Bach, which he insisted were rotting on their shelves. He also said something to the effect that everyone should know and study his work. Mozart said he is the father of us all. And Haydn made a similar comment about having studied him, probably referring to The True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments.

I don't think the main interest of CPE is vertical. But listen to his Prussian Sonata #3 in E major, the first movement in particular, for distant modulations and a fragmentary approach to thematic structure that anticipates some of Beethoven's stranger themes. And the work is thematically unified across movements.


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## KenOC

EdwardBast said:


> Beethoven wrote several letters to publishers asking for scores of CPE Bach...


"Of Emanuel Bach's clavier works I have only a few, yet they must be not only a real delight to every true artist, but also serve him for study purposes; and it is for me a great pleasure to play works that I have never seen, or seldom see, for real art lovers."

(Beethoven's letter of July 26, 1809 to Gottfried Hartel of Leipzig, ordering all the scores of Haydn, Mozart and the two Bachs. He must have been rolling in cash just then!)


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## Lord Lance

KenOC said:


> "Of Emanuel Bach's clavier works I have only a few, yet they must be not only a real delight to every true artist, but also serve him for study purposes; and it is for me a great pleasure to play works that I have never seen, or seldom see, for real art lovers."
> 
> (Beethoven's letter of July 26, 1809 to Gottfried Hartel of Leipzig, ordering all the scores of Haydn, Mozart and the two Bachs. He must have been rolling in cash just then!)


He was *Beethoven*. Whaddya think?

At least people recognized him even then. How nice.


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## Mandryka

Bulldog said:


> Be that as it may, I've never heard a connection. Put another way, when I listen to CPE I never think of Haydn; I have thought of Scarlatti though.


HAMLET
Do you see yonder cloud that's almost in shape of a camel?

HAMLET
Do you see that cloud up there that looks like a camel?

POLONIUS
By th' mass, and 'tis like a camel indeed.

POLONIUS
By God, it does look like a camel.

HAMLET
Methinks it is like a weasel.

HAMLET
To me it looks like a weasel.

POLONIUS
It is backed like a weasel.

HAMLET
Or like a whale.

HAMLET
Or like a whale.

POLONIUS
Very like a whale.

POLONIUS
Yes, very much like a whale.

HAMLET
Then I will come to my mother by and by.


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## Mandryka

EdwardBast said:


> Beethoven wrote several letters to publishers asking for scores of CPE Bach, which he insisted were rotting on their shelves. He also said something to the effect that everyone should know and study his work. Mozart said he is the father of us all. And Haydn made a similar comment about having studied him, probably referring to The True Art of Playing Keyboard Instruments.
> 
> I don't think the main interest of CPE is vertical. But listen to his Prussian Sonata #3 in E major, the first movement in particular, for distant modulations and a fragmentary approach to thematic structure that anticipates some of Beethoven's stranger themes. And the work is thematically unified across movements.


Prussian 3i reminds me of Haydn Symphony 92i after the largo and Haydn sonata 19i (the early one that Pogorelich recorded, I can't remember the Hob number)

And the haydn sonata reminds me of Scarlatti.

And Scarlatti reminds me of John Cage's piano sonatas.

And so, if these things are transitive . . . I'll shut up now.


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## clavichorder

EdwardBast said:


> Of the sonatas by CPE I have heard, I find the Prussians the most interesting. I have the music for about fifty of them but, unfortunately, much of my listening has only been to my own stumbling through them. A complete set on an instrument he might actually have played would be a wonderful thing.
> 
> I have recordings of more than half of his keyboard concertos and find these to be a remarkable body of work.


Try the 6 sonatas with varied reprises! These are very nice. Also, the Wurttemburg.


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## KenOC

Listening now to CPE's concertos for transverse flute, the Kossenko recordings. There are two discs of these, the best I've heard. I tend to enjoy CPE the most when he's being angular, jerky, and a bit obtuse.


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## brotagonist

KenOC said:


> I tend to enjoy... [X] the most when he's being angular, jerky, and a bit obtuse.


That's why I like the XXth Century


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## clavichorder

brotagonist said:


> That's why I like the XXth Century


That is why you would like WF Bach sonatas even more. CPEis great but his elder brother had a greater concentration of genius in what he put out, with all due respect.


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## Mandryka

clavichorder said:


> That is why you would like WF Bach sonatas even more. CPEis great but his elder brother had a greater concentration of genius in what he put out, with all due respect.


I know the polonaises as played by Robert Hill and I think they are great music. Recommend me something else at the same level of inspiration by WFB.


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## clavichorder

Mandryka said:


> I know the polonaises as played by Robert Hill and I think they are great music. Recommend me something else at the same level of inspiration by WFB.


Try this Mandryka:


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## Mandryka

clavichorder said:


> Try this Mandryka:


I'd be very interested to know what you make of Anneke Uittenbosch's performance of that sonata.


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## clavichorder

Mandryka said:


> I'd be very interested to know what you make of Anneke Uittenbosch's performance of that sonata.


I have not been able to find full free access to this recording, but it is on harpsichord no?

Another great video of a great WF piece, the A minor Fantasia. 




That may be his best solo keyboard piece of all.

And on the topic of the thread, more CPE and a WF piece are to be found played beautifully on a more heavy duty clavichord, in this playlist http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqlcedUjAj7k_dC7UkkwqcsXiAqUVJeXL


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## Mandryka

Yes, in the UK it's on spotify. She was a Leonhardt pupil, with a distinctively serious, intense approach. You can hear the influence of her teacher. What she does is interesting and quirky - I know her recordings of Sweelinck, Peter Philips and a few weeks ago I started to listen to her WTC2 (which impressed me for the seriousness, and the naturalness of the agogics.) Because of this discussion I found her WF Bach, and thought it was attractive.

I haven't been able to listen to much WFB. My attention recently has been on other composers: Scheidt, Sweelinck, Boehm and Marais.


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## clavichorder

Hmm, I guess I have spotify now. Let me check it out and I will get back.

Hearing the sonata now. I like it! A good combination of nuance of phrasing and forward momentum.


When you get in that Sturm und Drang clavichord mood again, I highly recommend a recording of the composer Ernst Wilhelm Wolf, a sort of CPE pupil, played on a clavichord by Simmonds. Stunning music and performance.


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## clavichorder

clavichorder said:


> Try the *6 sonatas with varied reprises*! These are very nice. Also, the Wurttemburg.


These 6 Varied Reprise sonatas can be heard, played very nicely in *volume 21 of Miklos Spanyi*'s Complete CPE Solo works. Its actually some of my favorite playing I've heard of his; the tempi are more brisk and the instrument sounds very nice. My favorite sonatas of this set are G major and A minor. These are pieces of polished perfection!

There are also many nice Miscellaneous sonatas and sonatas from other collections. See what you think of this:


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## Brouken Air

tdc said:


> I think CPE was very influential on Haydn and Beethoven, however I am not that interested in any of their music (but admit they were all great composers). In the Classical era I prefer Mozart's aesthetic and in the Romantic era I prefer Brahms.
> 
> I gravitate towards music that has its strength in the harmonic language. If there aren't things I find tasteful and interesting going on vertically I'm not that interested in how the musical ideas are developing horizontally. I think of CPE, Haydn and Beethoven as being essentially horizontal composers.
> 
> These things are really just personal preference.


Mozart has been influenced by CPE Bach!!!

Danny Driver issued 2 records of the sonatas which I found very interesting. With the Pletnev record, the best I heard of the sonatas.
:tiphat:


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