# Pablo de Sarasate: second-rate composer?



## Luximus (Apr 16, 2007)

I'm not sure about your opinions, but my violin teacher told me on our last lesson, when i was discussing my love for Sarasate's pieces, that Sarasate is a second-rate composer. Sure, his melodies may not have been as complicated as the Shostakovich, Sibelius, or Tchaikovsky concerti, but his melodies are just as wonderful to listn to. Such as his edition of the Carmen Fantasy and Introduction and Tarantella. I think Sarasate's a wonderful composer. I'd like to hear your opinions on this Spanish composer.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> Sure, his melodies may not have been as complicated as the Shostakovich, Sibelius, or Tchaikovsky concerti, but his melodies are just as wonderful to listn to.


He was a violinist, and composed with his instrument in mind. As with Ysaye's compositions, I don't think you will find more violinistic works out there. They are of course horrendous about difficulties, but as Vengerov said in one Masterclass*, once you know the work, you feel very comfortable about it, because the composers knew a lot about their instruments, and knew exactly what they were doing. This is not the case of Tchaikovsy's violin concerto and Ravel's Tzigane.

Availabe at Youtube (Check the little girl playing Capricho Vasco)


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

I think that the "second-rate" label comes from the very fact that Manuel is alluding to: he is a violinist and a violin-composer first and foremost. His compositions do not come from pure musical inspiration on an abstract level (like Beethoven, Brahms), but from the technique of the instrument itself.

So whereas his music sounds interesting and perhaps even thrilling from the standpoint of the violin, it is at best "normal" and at worst uninspired schlock from a purely musical standpoint when put up against the works of the giants.


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

Pablo is one of my all time favorites. I love his beautiful melodies and the 
fantastic use of all the technical resources of the violin.
Second rate composer my ***!!
Tell your teacher that he should wash his mouth before insulte a genius.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

oisfetz said:


> I love his beautiful melodies and the fantastic use of all the technical resources of the violin.


I grant you that within the genre of solo show-pieces (i.e. not concertos), the above statements are absolutely true.

BUT



oisfetz said:


> Second rate composer my ***!! Tell your teacher that he should wash his mouth before insulte a genius.


First of all, the means by which you express yourself are idiotic. Nobody will ever take you or your opinions seriously if you cannot make a logical argument without resorting to this kind of poetry.

Secondly, Sarasate *IS* a second-rate composer by comparison to "first-rate" composers who meet the following criteria:

A first-rate composer (I am excluding operas here) in the Romantic period is one that is able to organize his best ideas into the formal frameworks of multi-movement symphonies, concertos and sonatas. This is the standard that Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Mendelssohn, Liszt and many more laid down.

Credit should go to Sarasate for _realizing_ that he is _not_ capable of this, and never attempted to write such a work. He humbly stays within his area of expertise and writes show-pieces, so as not to write a _bad_ concerto or sonata. While he should not be derided for not attempting something he probably couldn't do, he should also not be ranked alongside those greater composers who could.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> He humbly stays within his area of expertise and writes show-pieces, so as not to write a bad concerto or sonata.


I have never heard of a large scale work by de Sarasate, so we just don't know.
Your reasons are not convincing at all. He wrote interesting short works and that's it. We can not conclude it was because of his inability to compose any _grand ouvre_.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

What I am saying is around the years of 1878 to 1883, when he wrote _Zigeunerweisen_ and _Carmen Fantasy_, his 2 best known pieces, it was _firmly established_ that "great" or "first-rate" composers wrote symphonies, concertos, or at the very least, sonatas.

Sarasate did not write these works because he was first and foremost a _violinist_...










... who knew enough about theory to be able to compose simple accompaniments to virtuosic violin pieces. Not have the training and knowledge to write in the larger forms that the greats wrote in. It is therefore a vast overstatement to call him a "first-rate composer" and place him in direct comparison with Brahms and Mendelssohn.

In conclusion, I believe that Sarasate wrote excellent virtuosic show-pieces for the violin, but it takes much more than that to be considered a "first-rate" composer.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Kurkikohtaus said:


> Not have the training and knowledge to write in the larger forms that the greats wrote in. It is therefore a vast overstatement to call him a "first-rate composer" and place him in direct comparison with Brahms and Mendelssohn.


He didn't write large scale works. So phrases like "had he composed a symphony, it would have been bad" are plain nonsense. It's a counterfactual hypothesis, and as such has no real value at all when trying to describe reality.


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## Morigan (Oct 16, 2006)

Manuel said:


> He didn't write large scale works. So phrases like "had he composed a symphony, it would have been bad" are plain nonsense. It's a counterfactual hypothesis, and as such has no real value at all when trying to describe reality.


But he did not compose such works.

It's wrong to say that he was a good composer based on what he COULD HAVE written. We admire composers for the wonderful work they have done.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

Morigan said:


> But he did not compose such works.
> 
> It's wrong to say that he was a good composer based on what he COULD HAVE written. We admire composers for the wonderful work they have done.


That is exactly what I wrote.

What he composed, is excellent. Are they a bunch of encores? I don't care because, again, they are excellent. This makes him a very good composer, enough to not be classified as _second-rate_.
*Henri Collet*, on the other hand, wrote large scale works, involving big orchestras, soloists, separate movements, etc, and they are awful. That's a second (if not third or fourth) rate composer.


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## Luximus (Apr 16, 2007)

I suppose the definition of a "first-rate" composer canbe refined based on one's personal judgement. I too, agree with Manuel's opinion, that Sarasate composed excellent works for the violin, as he was a violinist himself. However, Kurkikohtaus categorizes composers based on their small and large-scale works which involves many instruments that are out of the composer's expertise, which is a completely different way of categorizing composers. Yes, Brahms, Mendelssohn, and Beethoven composed wonderful symphonies but Sarasate composed excellent violin pieces. So, depending on how you would define a "first-rate" composer, Manuel and Kurk are both right. But I still believe that Sarasate is a first-rate composer, simply because I'm a violinist


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

IMO, is easy to disqualify a composer when one havn't technique enough 
to play his works. Tell me,Luximus, has your teacher that kind of technique?


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## Luximus (Apr 16, 2007)

stop talking bad about my teacher. He's played all over europe, and with Christian Ferras as well. I could ask him more about his accomplishments if you want. And why would one disqualify a composer if one cannot play his/her works? I can't play Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto in D major yet, but Tchaikovsky's one of the best composers in classical music history, in my opinion. Your way of thinking is unprofessional and inflexible. Do you disqualify composers when you don't have the technique to play his/her works?


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

I do not disqualify any composer.All are worthly of consideration and respect.
And I do not neither qualify them as first,second or any rates. When your teacher 
do write works as beautiful as Sarasate did, he could judge Pablo. But not
before. He can not like him, that's fine. But he shouldn't qualify.


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## Luximus (Apr 16, 2007)

I think my teacher thinks along the same line as Kurk, because if you compare Sarasate's works to those of Mozart, Beethoven and Sibelius (and many others), it does seem slightly miniscule. Yes, Sarasate's pieces are beautiful, but they're not as grand as the symphonies made by the composers listed above. Appreciation for Beethoven and Mozart usually comes with age and experience, and I can safely say this because not only my tutor, but my strings teacher at school, who has met so many famous violinists such as Issac Stern, as well as my orchestra's conductor, Anton Kuerti, who has played the piano accompanyment with YoYo Ma and Yehudi Menuhin, have a deep appreciation for Beethoven and Mozart. I suppose he was just comparing Sarasate to all of the composers in history, and when you do compare Sarasate to Mozart and Beethoven, then you can see a difference. Sarasate is truely a wonderful composer still, because he knew how to incorporate technique with lovely melodies for the violin. The only thing that differentiates him from Mozart is that he did not compose an symphonies or operas.


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

But this is the problem! You should'n compare any composer with 
any other. Each is unique,with his own style, as any violinist is 
unique. All that you can do is to say that you like or dislike a 
composer or a work, but you should'n qualify him saing that he is 
good or bad, first,second or n rate. And you must think for yourself
and made your own judgements and oppinions. Follow the teaching 
your teacher made to you,but only about your violin practics, and do not
accept his qualifications without judging for yourself. You´ve said that
you like Sarasate- So, what cares what your teacher think of him?
You like him, and that's all that matters.


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## Kurkikohtaus (Oct 22, 2006)

oisfetz said:


> But this is the problem! You should'nt compare any composer with any other. Each is unique, with his own style, as any violinist is unique.


I will begin by saying that although I disagree, I accept this statement as a valid opinion to which you are entitled, oisfetz.

The reason that I disagree is that these composers we are comparing did not compose in a vaccuum, and in that respect they are not as "Unique" as we may think they are. Composers throughout history, and especially in the _classical-romantic _tradition, were very acutely aware of the works of other composers that came before them. They wrote their music within a tradition, within a certain framework of categories, precedents and well-established genres.

So when several composers (Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Tchaikovsky) each write a 3-mvmt violin concerto that adheres to the same tradition, one _naturally_ compares all works in that genre to this established standard of excellence. Since Sarasate did _not_ write a violin concerto in this scale, one simply _cannot_ compare him to those giants.

One can compare Sarasate to composers like Ravel, Saint-Saens and Ysaye, who wrote virtuosic concert pieces for the instrument with orchestral accompaniment. One can legitimately argue that among these composers _in this genre_, Sarasate is the best. But the label "first-rate" must be qualified in this sense, and cannot be applied to Sarasate in general... because if he is first-rate, what are the 4 concerto-composers that I listed? Also first-rate? In that case, the label completely loses its meaning and this discussion becomes pointless.
______________________________________________
BTW, friends, the short form of my name is *KURKI*, which means "Crane" (the bird) in Finnish.


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## oisfetz (Dec 11, 2006)

I totally agree with you. This discussion is pointless. I reject any qualification
of "rates" on composers and works. I think that each composer is he and he only,
and his works are his and his only. I accept only comparations between similar
works of the same composer, and not with similar works of others. But we don't 
need to go on on this. We have our oppinions, and will stay with them.


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## Manuel (Feb 1, 2007)

> I think my teacher thinks along the same line as Kurk, because* if you compare Sarasate's works to those of Mozart, Beethoven and Sibelius *(and many others), *it does seem slightly miniscule*.


Of course they do. It's *insane *to compare any shory violin/piano work to a 34 minute Sibelius 4th symphony. It doesn't make sense at all.


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## galzusta (Jul 19, 2017)

Hello,
I am new, I just got registered and wanted to ask if anybody knows more about the relationship and mutual influence of Sibelius and Sarasate...


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## galzusta (Jul 19, 2017)

Yes, I also love Sarasate. But don't forget, he is not a Spanish composer. What I mean is that his music is based on basque traditional songs or melodies for dance, which have different measure and times.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

galzusta said:


> Yes, I also love Sarasate. But don't forget, he is not a Spanish composer. What I mean is that his music is based on basque traditional songs or melodies for dance, which have different measure and times.


Hello galzusta, first of all welcome to Talk classical.
Goof to see you participating, alas you are wrong about not being Spanish :
Born: 10 March 1844, Pamplona, Spain.
Past away : 20 September 1908, Biarritz, France


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## Woodduck (Mar 17, 2014)

Music doesn't have to be "first-rate" to be delightful. Sarasate may even be third-rate, but so what? There's fourth and fifth-rate music I enjoy! I do draw a line at sixth-rate, though.


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## Nereffid (Feb 6, 2013)

galzusta said:


> the relationship and mutual influence of Sibelius and Sarasate...


There's no mention of Sarasate in Andrew Barnett's Sibelius biography. Is it possible you're thinking of the Finnish conductor Jukka-Pekka _Saraste_?


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## Star (May 27, 2017)

Yes. Wrote some nice pieces but not in the first (or even second) rank


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## Art Rock (Nov 28, 2009)

Nereffid said:


> There's no mention of Sarasate in Andrew Barnett's Sibelius biography. Is it possible you're thinking of the Finnish conductor Jukka-Pekka _Saraste_?


Well, "mutual influence" excludes that......


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## Larkenfield (Jun 5, 2017)

Luximus said:


> I'm not sure about your opinions, but my violin teacher told me on our last lesson, when i was discussing my love for Sarasate's pieces, that Sarasate is a second-rate composer. Sure, his melodies may not have been as complicated as the Shostakovich, Sibelius, or Tchaikovsky concerti, but his melodies are just as wonderful to listn to. Such as his edition of the Carmen Fantasy and Introduction and Tarantella. I think Sarasate's a wonderful composer. I'd like to hear your opinions on this Spanish composer.


I find it rather strange that your _violin_ teacher would downgrade Sarasate as a second rate composer for the violin, when he specialized in it and his works are beloved and played by the top violinists in the world. I suppose Chopin was a second rate composer for the piano because he didn't write symphonies or for some other reason. What's the rating system for evaluating whether a violin teacher is good or not, or the best one for the student?


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## hpowders (Dec 23, 2013)

Second rate composer. First rate violinist.


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

Star said:


> Yes. Wrote some nice pieces but not in the first (or even second) rank


Try to play them, you speak different then


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## Pugg (Aug 8, 2014)

*
Pablo de Sarasate*. (10 March 1844 - 20 September 1908


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